# "What does it feel like to get your black belt?"



## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 9, 2015)

I got my black belt a few weeks ago and the KJN asked me this question after my 1st subsequent class.

Although I know he wanted to hear "great" or something similar, my honest answer was a little disappointing in that I felt that my kicking was better before, when I was working less and going to TKD more than my current 1-2 times per week.

Given that everyone who shows up at TKD for 3 years gets a BB, I have no particular pride in the belt itself, although I know KJN wants to hear that.

Nonetheless, what did it feel like for you once you got your BB?


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## TSDTexan (Aug 9, 2015)

As a 19 year old so many years ago... My thoughts were... Yessssss! I hit an important milestone.

But as my master often repeated... "A real blackbelt simply means that you have mastered the basics, and your education has just started in earnest."

So my thoughts, or free advice, re: your recent promotion.

Deepen your skill in a few techniques rather than seeking to acquire a thousand. Deepened skill mastery. This is something some what foreign to the American mindset.

Spend an hour ever day on one single technique for 11 days, or half an hour for 22 days.

At that pace you will truely master about 13 techniques per year.

Focus on perfect form repeated.
Seek excellence.
It will kill you with boredom. But skill mastery burned in really deep will have value when tested in the real world.

You are leasing with an option to buy what you think you know.

Throw a technique with good or correct form and mechanics 60,000 times and you will own it to the degree that recall is instinctive.

These will become signatures of your art.

A proper skill set of core techniques will save your life, at some point.

I mean this seek depth in a few things, in what you have learned.

And master your break falls. Odds are way more likely that you will need to use Nabahps then defend yourself in a street fight.

Now... I ask you to progress to second Dan, with diligence and excellence. And work hard at sharing your with junior students.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 9, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I got my black belt a few weeks ago and the KJN asked me this question after my 1st subsequent class.
> 
> Although I know he wanted to hear "great" or something similar, my honest answer was a little disappointing in that I felt that my kicking was better before, when I was working less and going to TKD more than my current 1-2 times per week.
> 
> ...



Maybe the lack of a feeling of accomplishment is related to the fact that your school gives them out for just showing up?

When I got my first 1st Dan, I thought it meant I was a badass. But given that I was 13, I hope I can be forgiven that bit of foolishness. 
In the many years since, promotions haven't meant much. I've gotten a couple of service awards that meant more. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## ks - learning to fly (Aug 9, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I got my black belt a few weeks ago and the KJN asked me this question after my 1st subsequent class.
> 
> Although I know he wanted to hear "great" or something similar, my honest answer was a little disappointing in that I felt that my kicking was better before, when I was working less and going to TKD more than my current 1-2 times per week.
> 
> ...



Before I answer - I must tell you that - _*NO, not everyone who shows up at TKD for 3 years "gets" a Black Belt*_ - period.
At our dojang, nobody 'gets' anything - they earn it - through blood, sweat and tears - no shortcuts, no excuses - no kidding.

That being said - 'how did it feel when I _*earned*_ my Black Belt?'  #1 - it felt amazing and for the first 10 minutes after my test
I couldn't stop looking at it   #2  I finally understood why Black Belt is called 'the beginning'..  but in a good way..


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 9, 2015)

ks - learning to fly said:


> I finally understood why Black Belt is called 'the beginning'..  but in a good way..



"Grasshopper, you are beginning to understand."


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## TSDTexan (Aug 9, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan,

One other think I would share with you.
The word Do, or Dao. 道, often is translated Path or Way....
But a better understanding would tell us it means journey.
Tang Soo Do,
Tae Kwon Do,
Hap Ki Do...

You are on a lifelong journey to learn your art.


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## Hyoho (Aug 9, 2015)

I clearly remember the first one I took but most of all the first national grading. Lol they were dropping like flies for tiny mistakes.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 9, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Deepen your skill in a few techniques rather than seeking to acquire a thousand. Deepened skill mastery. This is something some what foreign to the American mindset.


I'm looking to do some muay thai in order to improve upon 3 things:
1) fighting stance where punches to the head are allowed
2) punching, including kick/punch combinations
3) what I am exposing myself to when I throw a kick

However I want to wait until I see my name on the KKW website first.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 9, 2015)

ks - learning to fly said:


> Before I answer - I must tell you that - _*NO, not everyone who shows up at TKD for 3 years "gets" a Black Belt*_ - period.
> At our dojang, nobody 'gets' anything - they earn it - through blood, sweat and tears - no shortcuts, no excuses - no kidding.


The general consensus here is that everyone who tries, gets a BB.  So amongst 20 students testing, you might have 2-3 who are really good, 5 who are pretty good, 5 who are so-so, and 2-3 who frankly couldn't do much effectively if push came to shove.

I've never been to a school where they say "you just aren't coordinated enough or athletic enough to get a BB".  Consequentely, everyone who shows up gets the BB, at the schools I've seen anyway.  It's akin to the high school diploma - sure there's work, but EVERYONE graduates.


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## jks9199 (Aug 9, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Maybe the lack of a feeling of accomplishment is related to the fact that your school gives them out for just showing up?
> 
> When I got my first 1st Dan, I thought it meant I was a badass. But given that I was 13, I hope I can be forgiven that bit of foolishness.
> In the many years since, promotions haven't meant much. I've gotten a couple of service awards that meant more.
> ...


My black belt was certainly accompanied by a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction.  Not only had I met my teacher's standards to be nominated, but I'd done well in the testing and interview.  And I knew it wasn't just "handed out."

I'm sorry that the OP doesn't feel that same sense of accomplishment or achievement.  I hope he'll take it as an opportunity to push himself to meet the standard he believes he should be at -- and to lead the way in raising everyone's performance.  I'd also suggest that, while his kicks may have been better previously, perhaps his understanding of them was not...


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 9, 2015)

I'm so glad that my school doesn't work on a belt system.  I've always wonder how other people felt about getting a belt especially since many people are really into getting belts just for the sake of having one.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 9, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> I'm sorry that the OP doesn't feel that same sense of accomplishment or achievement.  I hope he'll take it as an opportunity to push himself to meet the standard he believes he should be at -- and to lead the way in raising everyone's performance.


That's the way I look at it. Now that I have a BB, I can leave for a bit to try other things, and come back with more acceptance.  Also, I now feel like I can comment more in class; for instance a white belt was having a hard time with the "knee-up hop forward", so I asked her to follow me.


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## Tames D (Aug 9, 2015)

When I earned my black belt I knew that I was more than a guy that is "now just beginning and starting my journey". I started my journey when I walked in the door as a white belt. The 5 years of hard work I put in made me what I am today, and that's not a beginner. Please don't insult me by telling me that I was now just starting my journey. I wonder why people keep saying this. I realize that it a humble thing to say but the reality is if you earned a black belt you should be qualified, unless your instructor let you down, and then yes, you are a beginner. I know I will receive a lot of flack on this but it's ok, bring it on


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## TSDTexan (Aug 9, 2015)

Tames D said:


> When I earned my black belt I knew that I was more than a guy that is "now just beginning and starting my journey". I started my journey when I walked in the door as a white belt. The 5 years of hard work I put in made me what I am today, and that's not a beginner. Please don't insult me by telling me that I was now just starting my journey. I wonder why people keep saying this. I realize that it a humble thing to say but the reality is if you earned a black belt you should be qualified, unless your instructor let you down, and then yes, you are a beginner. I know I will receive a lot of flack on this but it's ok, bring it on



Before you can run a marathon, you must first learn to run, before you run, you jog, before you jog, you walk, before you walk, you stand, before you stand, you kneel, or crawl, before this you flopped about, and before that you layed still, as like a limp noodle.

The day you entered this world you started a journey.

In time, you will gain perspective, and realize that you know very little and have much to learn. (We all do)

You say five years and you are not a beginner?
I have met men who have been martial artists for 80 years, and will admit they are still beginners.

Old men who were so fast that if they didn't leave a light mark upon you, you would have never known they struck you.

Old Men that by technique alone, and not strength, could cause my 230 lb frame to fly about fifteen feet when trying to grasp at the fabric of their dobak sleeve.

Old men who could strike pressure points with supreme accuracy. And leave your arm numb for two days.
When you become aware that such a man could indeed kill with such strikes. Your scope changes.

You are but a youth who has raced a race with other youths around a schoolyard, and this is the scope of your world, rare is a man who has walked the borders of his whole nation. Rarer still, a man who has compassed the borders of his continent.

In time you will be staggered with how much there is to learn, that you never knew existed. Or to learn what what it really means to "know".

And like the layers of an onion, you will reach more zeniths on your journey. Which will humble you.

My words alone cannot reveal the truth of this matter. You must experience it.

And I have already said too much.

The truth is none of us are qualified. Certificates, and colored belts, notwithstanding..... Real Art is nothing more then one poor begger showing another begger where the food is.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 9, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The general consensus here is that everyone who tries, gets a BB.  So amongst 20 students testing, you might have 2-3 who are really good, 5 who are pretty good, 5 who are so-so, and 2-3 who frankly couldn't do much effectively if push came to shove.
> 
> I've never been to a school where they say "you just aren't coordinated enough or athletic enough to get a BB".  Consequentely, everyone who shows up gets the BB, at the schools I've seen anyway.  It's akin to the high school diploma - sure there's work, but EVERYONE graduates.



A Liberal School. The mediocrity that is progressive western culture in popular martial arts is the enemy of quality art.

Long gone are the tests in Korea in the 1950's and 1960's. A tests was not just a few hours long... But two or three days long.

And Hard.

Dear Chuck Norris, had to retest, a month after his first failed Dan test. Hwang Kee didn't just give Dan Bons to just anybody.

You earned it with blood, sweat and tears.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 10, 2015)

Tames D said:


> When I earned my black belt I knew that I was more than a guy that is "now just beginning and starting my journey".........




"Success is a journey, not a destination. The doing is often more important than the outcome."

 Arthur Ashe 

More food for thought:

https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...6AQU3clKnMb7hc5NQUQ0Eol66rEw==&attredirects=0

Or perhaps not.


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## Metal (Aug 10, 2015)

For me it was a relief and of course I was happy and proud, but over time my view on black belts had changed drastically.

When I was a kid I thought that blackbelts were awesome fighters who're able to walk on water. Plus at my club it took forever to get from 1 kup to the next, coz our coach didn't want his school to be a blackbelts factory. When I got back to Taekwondo I had learned how easy it can be to get one and also how fast you an get a black belt. Two to three years to 1st Dan? Took me 9 months to get to 9th Kup...

Anyway, I wish I had gotten my 1st Poom or Dan in the 90s though - could have taken the Skip Dan test then. ^^

The belt or rank doesn't mean that much anyway. If somebody's skills and behavior match his belt/rank then that's awesome, if they surpass the belt/rank then that's even better.


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## Tames D (Aug 10, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Before you can run a marathon, you must first learn to run, before you run, you jog, before you jog, you walk, before you walk, you stand, before you stand, you kneel, or crawl, before this you flopped about, and before that you layed still, as like a limp noodle.
> 
> The day you entered this world you started a journey.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstood me. When I saidI 5 years, I meant that is when I earned my BB. That was about 35 years ago.


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## WaterGal (Aug 10, 2015)

Immediately afterward?  I was like "that's it?? Let's spar more!" and then maybe 10 minutes later the adrenaline/endorphines dropped and I was totally wiped out. Which of course was the moment GM wanted to take my photo for Kukkiwon, so on my card I look half dead and really sweaty, haha.

Later on, I was proud of the accomplishment, but also.... surprised at how much more there was to learn and improve.  It's like the saying goes, the more you know, the more you know you don't know.


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## Thousand Kicks (Aug 10, 2015)

I was very proud to receive my 1st dan. I am currently a 3rd dan and I noticed the subsequent tests meant far less to me. I tested for my 2nd dan maybe 2 years after recieving my 1st. I tested for my 3rd dan about 7 years after receiving my second and only after my instructor encouraged me to test.

I am far more interested in being a better martial artist than having rank.


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## WaterGal (Aug 10, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The general consensus here is that everyone who tries, gets a BB.  So amongst 20 students testing, you might have 2-3 who are really good, 5 who are pretty good, 5 who are so-so, and 2-3 who frankly couldn't do much effectively if push came to shove.
> 
> I've never been to a school where they say "you just aren't coordinated enough or athletic enough to get a BB".  Consequentely, everyone who shows up gets the BB, at the schools I've seen anyway.  It's akin to the high school diploma - sure there's work, but EVERYONE graduates.



I've seen tests like that, and honestly.... they were embarrassing.  While everyone is at a different level in terms of physical ability and skill, there needs to be a minimum requirement.  Which people should have developed by coming to class regularly for a few years.


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## TrueJim (Aug 10, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The general consensus here is that everyone who tries, gets a BB....



At the school that my son and I attend* we have (typically) four, fairly grueling, afternoon-long practice sessions before the actual test-date. Our instructors usually weed-out the folks who aren't ready during the practice sessions. Not everybody makes it to the fourth practice session. By the time you get to the belt-test, pretty-much everybody who takes the test passes it, but that's because they've already done the filtering. I

Getting my Black Belt kinda reminded me of getting my Bachelor's Degree. I remember in both instances thinking, "Well, no matter what happens in life after this, this is something I accomplished." (I came from a very poor family, so a college degree was not taken-for-granted.) I wouldn't say that I felt _elated_, but I felt very _satisfied_. Not entirely satisfied with all of my taekwondo of course....my taekwondo was in many ways better back in college when I was just a color belt but was also much younger. It's hard getting this old body to do some things.

I got my Black Belt with my young son, so I was also very glad that he'd have that as something to remember in the future.

* I always say that instead of "at my school..." because I think that saying "my school" makes it sound like I own a school.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 10, 2015)

My first black belt was in Bujinkan taijutsu around 27 years ago, back when it was still being marketed as "ninjutsu." It reflected a few years of consistent (though not strenuous) training, lots of seminars, and moving to of the few cities in the U.S. that had a dojo in the art back then.  While I gave lip service to not caring about the rank, it was kind of a relief. I had internalized the training as part of my personal identity and was a topic that I was prepared to talk about at length with anybody. As a result, it was sort of embarrassing when people would ask me about my rank in this art I wouldn't shut up about and I had to admit that I was not yet a black belt. (I never brought up the subject of my rank, before or after, but it was nice to not worry about it any more.)

My second black belt (15 years ago) was in a form of eclectic American kickboxing. My instructor awarded it in conjunction with my passing my instructor's test in the Thai Boxing Association (primarily a test of physical conditioning and mental toughness and willpower) and fighting a couple of times in the ring. The rank felt like a nice pat on the back, but not much else.

My latest black belt promotion was in BJJ and took place earlier this year. It reflects close to a couple of decades and thousands of hours of mat time getting my butt kicked and pushing myself physically and mentally. My first reaction was "they can't possibly be promoting me yet - I've got another year or two before I'll be ready." My next reaction, once I realized they really were going to promote me, was "I need to start training extra hard now so I can catch up to the rank." Six months later, I'm just getting to the point where I feel like I deserve the rank more days than not.


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## zzj (Aug 10, 2015)

Underwhelming... I got my junior black belt at 14 and stopped TKD soon after as interest fizzled. I was subsequently was 'upgraded' to 1st Dan in my 20's after a chance meet up with the head of my TKD school... needless to say it didn't feel real or deserved at all. I never felt I could fight, or was even fit enough to be a black belt of any sort, but I went for the required tests and somehow found myself a black belt.


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## Tames D (Aug 10, 2015)

zzj said:


> Underwhelming... I got my junior black belt at 14 and stopped TKD soon after as interest fizzled. I was subsequently was 'upgraded' to 1st Dan in my 20's after a chance meet up with the head of my TKD school... needless to say it didn't feel real or deserved at all. I never felt I could fight, or was even fit enough to be a black belt of any sort, but I went for the required tests and somehow found myself a black belt.


This is one of the things that's wrong with TKD.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 10, 2015)

Tames D said:


> This is one of the things that's wrong with TKD.



No, it's not. Because not all TKD systems do it.


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## Tames D (Aug 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, it's not. Because not all TKD systems do it.


I'll take your word for it.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 10, 2015)

I get queasy when I think or hear about Jr. Black belts.


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## Jacky Zuki (Aug 11, 2015)

My first black belt was in Iaido and was a bit of a relief for everyone, I was the only one in the group below 3rd Dan and they had been really putting me through the mill to get me up to speed. Since the club only had one club grade for 1st kyu and then on to national dan gradings they were a bit worried that I had only been training for a few years and had little exposure to grading pressure. Fortunately I relaxed into it and got a good score and my sensei got a nod.

My karate black belt was a different matter, I was pressured into it from being a happy 3rd kyu. I could have stayed a brown belt for a year or so consolidating what I had learned so far but I was put into the next two gradings in rapid succession and I started getting sloppy and injuring myself. When it came to the (club) dan grading I made a complete hash of it, forgot a couple of ohyogumite, could only throw a round kick at about waist level due to a groin strain and fully expected to be failed. When I was passed I was more angry than elated and it signalled the start of my exit from karate (until now) as there were a few in the club who were unhappy with my promotion as well. Former friends became enemies overnight. Its amazing what a simple piece of cloth can do.


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## Balrog (Aug 11, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> .
> 
> *Given that everyone who shows up at TKD for 3 years gets a BB*


Not so, Grasshopper.  

We have a saying in our school:  you don't earn the Black Belt, the Black Belt earns you.  In other words, you'll promote when you are ready to, and not a day before.  Showing up for three years won't cut it.  Showing up for three years, busting your hump and striving for continual improvement will.

As I've said before, 1st Degree Black Belt is a great goal to set as a White Belt, but it's like setting a goal that says I'm going to graduate from high school.  1st through 12th grades are getting you ready to go to college and do some serious studying.  White Belt through 1st Degree is about learning the basics of Taekwondo.  From 1st Degree onward, you are now learning the art of Taekwondo.

For me personally....it was a strenuous testing.  My instructor ran me through every low-rank form and one-step, had me do extra board breaks, do multiple sparring as well as the two required rounds of one-on-one, etc.  When he presented my belt to me, I felt like the king of the world because I had had to overcome severe physical issues as well as the testing requirements (I have rheumatoid arthritis).  The only thing that has exceeded that feeling was the day when the Grand Master dubbed me with the Big Stick and announced that I was a Master Instructor.

I'm sorry you got short-changed on your experience, my friend.  My only suggestion is to put your own value into it.  Spend extra time working on your basics and your forms.  Strive to continually improve.  Set a personal workout schedule for yourself that leaves you dripping with sweat at least three times a week, if not more.  Perhaps you didn't get to do this for your 1st Degree, but set your own personal goal to make the 2nd Degree Black Belt earn you.


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## WaterGal (Aug 11, 2015)

Tames D said:


> This is one of the things that's wrong with TKD.



That some schools have low standards?  That's true of any popular style, and even unpopular ones.  Many people want to make money more than they care about the integrity of the art, and so will water down the classes and requirements to make sure everybody can get a trophy (belt) just for showing up.

Even if you're in a style that gives poom belts, they don't have to be like how zzj described.  You can have high standards and make kids work their little butts off to earn that belt.  A 10-year old can learn to run a mile, do 50 crunches, 200 kicks, 6 rounds of sparring, do all the Taegeuk (or Palgwe or whatever) forms correctly and gracefully, etc.  It doesn't have to be easy.


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## Hyoho (Aug 11, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm so glad that my school doesn't work on a belt system.  I've always wonder how other people felt about getting a belt especially since many people are really into getting belts just for the sake of having one.


I gave up on dan grades at 42. The chairman of the association said to me, "It's not so much about you. Your students will be pleased and proud if you go up another rank.

But I still gave up to concentrate on classical arts that have no rank. No regrets at all.


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## zzj (Aug 11, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> That some schools have low standards?  That's true of any popular style, and even unpopular ones.  Many people want to make money more than they care about the integrity of the art, and so will water down the classes and requirements to make sure everybody can get a trophy (belt) just for showing up.
> 
> Even if you're in a style that gives poom belts, they don't have to be like how zzj described.  You can have high standards and make kids work their little butts off to earn that belt.  A 10-year old can learn to run a mile, do 50 crunches, 200 kicks, 6 rounds of sparring, do all the Taegeuk (or Palgwe or whatever) forms correctly and gracefully, etc.  It doesn't have to be easy.



I would say that the problem is not that some schools have low standards, but that too many TKD schools have low standards, including the one I attended. When McDojangs become the norm it can't be a good thing. 

I have since stopped TKD and am learning Tai Chi now, and similarly, due to the popularization of the Art, 95% of Tai Chi being taught nowadays is just moving meditation for seniors. However, the difference is that for Tai Chi, people generally know what they are in for, whether they are doing it for low impact exercise, or if they are looking to learn the actual Martial Art. For TKD, my sense is that parents are signing up their 5 year olds expecting them to learn an effective Martial Art at a McDojang.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 11, 2015)

zzj said:


> I would say that the problem is not that some schools have low standards, but that too many TKD schools have low standards, including the one I attended. When McDojangs become the norm it can't be a good thing.



And exactly how many TKD schools have you attended, and for how long? And you are qualified to judge their standards based on exactly what training and experience?


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 11, 2015)

I'd say the biggest problem is that no one thinks their standards are low. We always hear about schools with low standards, but those school owners must be too busy making money to post here.


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## Hyoho (Aug 12, 2015)

zzj said:


> I would say that the problem is not that some schools have low standards, but that too many TKD schools have low standards, including the one I attended. When McDojangs become the norm it can't be a good thing.
> 
> I have since stopped TKD and am learning Tai Chi now, and similarly, due to the popularization of the Art, 95% of Tai Chi being taught nowadays is just moving meditation for seniors. However, the difference is that for Tai Chi, people generally know what they are in for, whether they are doing it for low impact exercise, or if they are looking to learn the actual Martial Art. For TKD, my sense is that parents are signing up their 5 year olds expecting them to learn an effective Martial Art at a McDojang.


That will always be the case for some arts. If you don't start when you are seven and practice twice a day for at least nine years you will never attain the same levels.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 12, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I got my black belt a few weeks ago and the KJN asked me this question after my 1st subsequent class.
> 
> Although I know he wanted to hear "great" or something similar, my honest answer was a little disappointing in that I felt that my kicking was better before, when I was working less and going to TKD more than my current 1-2 times per week.
> 
> ...



Hmm, to be honest, reading this, I wonder why you'd attend a school that you don't value the skills you gain from, the ranking structure (and what you feel it is representative of), and that you, in your words, don't feel any pride in your achievements within… 



TSDTexan said:


> Gwai Lo Dan,
> 
> One other think I would share with you.
> The word Do, or Dao. 道, often is translated Path or Way....
> ...



Or, you know… street. As in "Main Street".

What I'm saying is that, while there can be such ideals associated, it's hardly a thoroughly universal aspect… and honestly, "journey" would be your interpretation.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I'm looking to do some muay thai in order to improve upon 3 things:
> 1) fighting stance where punches to the head are allowed
> 2) punching, including kick/punch combinations
> 3) what I am exposing myself to when I throw a kick
> ...



Doing Muay Thai will improve your TKD? Is that the same as learning Italian to improve your Swahili? I mean… much of what you're listing is not TKD… it's a different approach, a different context, a different methodology… so what does having your name on the KKW website have to do with it? Are they not going to put your name up if you do muay Thai too early? And, if you have no pride in your rank, or your achievement, or in the skill you feel you've attained… why are you waiting to have it advertised?



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The general consensus here is that everyone who tries, gets a BB.  So amongst 20 students testing, you might have 2-3 who are really good, 5 who are pretty good, 5 who are so-so, and 2-3 who frankly couldn't do much effectively if push came to shove.
> 
> I've never been to a school where they say "you just aren't coordinated enough or athletic enough to get a BB".  Consequentely, everyone who shows up gets the BB, at the schools I've seen anyway.  It's akin to the high school diploma - sure there's work, but EVERYONE graduates.



Leaving off the gaps in the maths there (hmm… that might explain the second part), are you suggesting that it's not possible to fail to graduate from high school? Really?

And yes, there are plenty of places where you simply can be not good enough (in various ways) to get a black belt… regardless of what you believe.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> That's the way I look at it. Now that I have a BB, I can leave for a bit to try other things, and come back with more acceptance.  Also, I now feel like I can comment more in class; for instance a white belt was having a hard time with the "knee-up hop forward", so I asked her to follow me.



Er… right. You think you needed a black belt to leave and try other things? And now you can comment? Even though you're looking to leave? 

Yeah… the impression you're giving me is that you're not in the right school for yourself. Unless you can say something positive about it, that is… 



Tames D said:


> When I earned my black belt I knew that I was more than a guy that is "now just beginning and starting my journey". I started my journey when I walked in the door as a white belt. The 5 years of hard work I put in made me what I am today, and that's not a beginner. Please don't insult me by telling me that I was now just starting my journey. I wonder why people keep saying this. I realize that it a humble thing to say but the reality is if you earned a black belt you should be qualified, unless your instructor let you down, and then yes, you are a beginner. I know I will receive a lot of flack on this but it's ok, bring it on



So… 40 years down the track, and you're insulted that your first major achievement, some five years into your journey, was considered "the beginning" of it? And, out of interest… "if you earned a black belt, you should be qualified"… qualified for what?


----------



## Tames D (Aug 12, 2015)

Yes Chris. I felt insulted.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 12, 2015)

Tames D said:


> When I earned my black belt I knew that I was more than a guy that is "now just beginning and starting my journey". I started my journey when I walked in the door as a white belt. *The 5 years of hard work I put in made me what I am today*,



So it was your first 5 years of hard work training that made you what you are today, more so than the subsequent 35 years of training?



Tames D said:


> and that's not a beginner.



From the standpoint of your current self who has been training for 40 years, you don't see your 35-year-ago self who had only 1/8th your current experience as a beginner? I've only been training for 34 years, but I very much consider my earlier self with 5 years of training to have been a beginner. It's a matter of perspective, to be sure.



Tames D said:


> Yes Chris. I felt insulted.



Okay. Any particular reason why? It seems like just a matter of perspective. To a 10-year-old, a 20-year-old seems old. To a 50-year-old, a 20-year-old seems very young. To a new white belt, a shodan with 5 years of training seems very advanced. To someone who has been training for 30+ years, that same shodan will seem more like a beginner.

Personally, I wouldn't say that my first black belt was the "start" of my journey so much as one particular milestone out of many during the very early stages of my  journey. Then again, I don't take the saying in question exactly literally.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 12, 2015)

I have to tell you, it feels weird. When I am walking around in street clothes, I am ostensibly the most no-threatening person you could ever meet. (I find this to be a great advantage) However,if people see me in my super-hero black belt costume, people look at me differently: Black-belts want to beat me up because they see the conflict; Karate Moms look at me like I wish women would look at me at the club; and last but not least, your friends might start acting the fool, because they think you will jump in and save them.... Other than that if feels no different than it did the day before.


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## Tames D (Aug 12, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> So it was your first 5 years of hard work training that made you what you are today, more so than the subsequent 35 years of training?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're right Tony. It's all about perspective. I gave my perspective and you gave yours. Who's right, who's wrong?
A quick question out of curiosity: do you consider Mike Trout a beginner?


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 12, 2015)

Tames D said:


> You're right Tony. It's all about perspective. I gave my perspective and you gave yours. Who's right, who's wrong?
> A quick question out of curiosity: do you consider Mike Trout a beginner?


I had to look up who Mike Trout is - I'm not a baseball fan.

I would strongly suspect that any Major League Baseball player (even a rookie) has spent significantly more hours developing his baseball skills than most newly-promoted karate black belts have spent practicing their arts. So in terms of time spent on learning his craft, he's probably not a beginner. I'm open to correction from someone who knows more about the sport.

As far as our respective perspectives, I don't know if either of us is "right" or "wrong". I was just asking questions to try to understand your viewpoint better. It seemed unusual from someone with 40 years of experience.


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## Tames D (Aug 12, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I had to look up who Mike Trout is - I'm not a baseball fan.
> 
> I would strongly suspect that any Major League Baseball player (even a rookie) has spent significantly more hours developing his baseball skills than most newly-promoted karate black belts have spent practicing their arts. So in terms of time spent on learning his craft, he's probably not a beginner. I'm open to correction from someone who knows more about the sport.
> 
> As far as our respective perspectives, I don't know if either of us is "right" or "wrong". I was just asking questions to try to understand your viewpoint better. It seemed unusual from someone with 40 years of experience.


Mike Trout is 24 years old. He has less time in baseball than you do in martial arts. Yet you consider yourself a beginner, but not him? Mike is the best player in baseball at this time. and you're right, he's not a beginner. I'm just not sure where this beginner stuff is coming from. A beginner is someone who is just starting out in my opinion. Again, just my perspective.
Ok, you're not a baseball fan. Do you consider Ronda Rousey a beginner? I assume you know who Ronda is.


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## Tames D (Aug 13, 2015)

And Chris, why are you attacking me? I'm not a newbie that will put up with your BS.


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## Tames D (Aug 13, 2015)

be·gin·ner
/bəˈɡinər/
noun

a person just starting to learn a skill or take part in an activity.
a person who is beginning something
one that begins something; _especially_*:*  an inexperienced person or doing something for the first time


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 13, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Mike Trout is 24 years old. He has less time in baseball than you do in martial arts. Yet you consider yourself a beginner, but not him? Mike is the best player in baseball at this time. and you're right, he's not a beginner. I'm just not sure where this beginner stuff is coming from. A beginner is someone who is just starting out in my opinion. Again, just my perspective.
> Ok, you're not a baseball fan. Do you consider Ronda Rousey a beginner? I assume you know who Ronda is.


Nah, I don't really consider myself a beginner in martial arts at this point. I do consider myself to have been a beginner (by my current standards) back when I got my first black belt.

Looking at Mike Trout's bio, he started playing baseball in Little League, age 9 or under. He played in high school, the minor leagues, and now the major leagues. He's been playing at least 15 years, 6 of those as a professional. At a conservative estimate, he's got his 10,000 hours in, working to polish his craft. I wouldn't consider anyone with that background to be a beginner.

Ronda Rousey started training at age 11, putting in long hours of training under high-level coaching and competing at the highest level in the world. Even though I've been training more years than she has been alive, she's got way more hours on the mat than I do. At this point she's probably got 20,000 hours of training under her belt. (I've been training twice as many years as she has and I might possibly have half as many hours training as she has. In addition, her training has been more intense than mine has.) I don't think anyone considers her to be a beginner.

How is any of this relevant to the question at hand? When you got your black belt, did you have 10,000+ hours of training? Were you competing professionally at the highest levels? If so, then you certainly weren't a beginner. Great! I think it's safe to say that the overwhelming majority of newly promoted black belts don't have anything close to that level of experience.

I've answered your questions. If you feel like answering the one I asked you in my earlier post, I'm still curious to understand your position better.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 13, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, to be honest, reading this, I wonder why you'd attend a school that you don't value the skills you gain from, the ranking structure (and what you feel it is representative of), and that you, in your words, don't feel any pride in your achievements within…


I don't feel pride because there are lots of poor black belts in TKD.  I tried a club last year with literally the worse BB I have ever seen.  I think he had a mental/physical issue because he seemed not all there and uncoordinated (I don't say that judgmentally, just factually).  So the belt itself is nothing to be proud about IMO.  Rather I think you have to look at yourself to be proud, and for me, I feel I had some better kicks as a color belt when I worked less and practised more.

In terms of the school selection, it was the only one with BB testing fees in the $300 range (it increased to $380 by the time I tested) and no 12 month contract.  With that said, I think many of the schools are very similar in terms of the teaching material



Chris Parker said:


> Doing Muay Thai will improve your TKD? Is that the same as learning Italian to improve your Swahili? I mean… much of what you're listing is not TKD… it's a different approach, a different context, a different methodology…


I don't think I ever said MT will improve my TKD.  I think it will provide some insight into other situations outside WTF TKD. For instance, I tried a ITF TKD club and for the first time did a jab/cross/slip/hook combo.  I never EVER saw that in my WTF TKD classes.  Definitely good to try something new.




Chris Parker said:


> so what does having your name on the KKW website have to do with it? Are they not going to put your name up if you do muay Thai too early? And, if you have no pride in your rank, or your achievement, or in the skill you feel you've attained… why are you waiting to have it advertised?


Schools tend to accept BB more than color belt rankings.  I've heard of schools not giving the KKW certificate if you leave right after the test.  So I will wait. In terms of pride, that's 1 of the 7 deadly sins right?  If someone asks I'll say I'm a BB, but I'll also add that it doesn;t mean I am Bruce Lee.  I am better than some, worse than others.





Chris Parker said:


> Leaving off the gaps in the maths there (hmm… that might explain the second part), are you suggesting that it's not possible to fail to graduate from high school? Really?


I think you would literally have to be mentally handicapped to fail out of high school IF YOU TRIED.  A high school diploma is critical to doing anything (even barber school where I live) so schools want everyone to be able to graduate.  The marks and courses may be different for a genius vs a bottom student, but they both graduate. Maybe it's different where you live, but where I live there are all sorts of options for people who can't handle the regular classes but still want a high school diploma.



Chris Parker said:


> And yes, there are plenty of places where you simply can be not good enough (in various ways) to get a black belt… regardless of what you believe.


If you say so.  I personally haven't seen it at KKW/WTF TKD schools.


Finally I am not sure why you seem to be taking things personally.  If BB is a big source of pride for you, great.  I was only asking how people felt when they got there BB, not trying to convince everyone that everyone should have the same ambivalence as me.


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## Hyoho (Aug 13, 2015)

I took a few dan grades to go to Japan and upon arriving was begginer due to the double standard. Stuck with the kiddies practice for a while. so the BB I had taken were I bit of an anticlimax. I suppose my Sensei could have prepared me more but he just chuckled and knew what was going to happen. A matter of going to a serious dojo and getting my medicine. Which brings up the point of how hard do you you push your students to achieve a BB. Some will take it others are content to just train. You get out of it what you put in. The harder you work for a belt the more satisfied you will be when you get it as recognition of what you have achieved.

We do our best and enjoy what we do. No one should feel embarrassed at being a beginner. On the contrary if we start another art we should seriously consider ourselves a beginner. The worst thing of all is having the habits of one art leech into another if you want to make any progress.

In Japan minimum requirements for some jobs is Sandan.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Yes Chris. I felt insulted.



Okay. Honestly, then… get over it. You were still very much at the beginning of your journey. You don't like having that (perceived) level of skill as being a "beginner"? Fine. I'd still consider you one (at that point).



Tames D said:


> And Chris, why are you attacking me? I'm not a newbie that will put up with your BS.



Where was the attack, Tim? Believe me, asking if you really felt insulted (and I wasn't the only one to ask) is far from an attack… especially considering some of the suggestions you've made about me previously… which you refused to back up, clarify, or qualify… or issue a retraction or apology for. 

Believe me, I can turn this into an attack… but I'd rather do that outside of a public thread.



Tames D said:


> be·gin·ner
> /bəˈɡinər/
> noun
> 
> ...



And, from this perspective, a Shodan can very easily be described as either definition 1 or 2. Again, though, it's all a matter of perspective.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I don't feel pride because there are lots of poor black belts in TKD.  I tried a club last year with literally the worse BB I have ever seen.  I think he had a mental/physical issue because he seemed not all there and uncoordinated (I don't say that judgmentally, just factually).  So the belt itself is nothing to be proud about IMO.  Rather I think you have to look at yourself to be proud, and for me, I feel I had some better kicks as a color belt when I worked less and practised more.



So where did you drop the ball? If your kicks were better before, what changed in your approach to them? What changed in your practice? Why are you practicing less? And is that the fault of the belt and your rank?



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In terms of the school selection, it was the only one with BB testing fees in the $300 range (it increased to $380 by the time I tested) and no 12 month contract.  With that said, I think many of the schools are very similar in terms of the teaching material



So… you chose the school based on a budget… and you're wondering why the skill level isn't at the range you want it to be?

Look, I work in retail (electrical goods)… I had a customer ask for the cheapest 50 inch TV we had… I showed him a cheap, low-end Chinese no-name TV, and he said "So, this is a good TV, is it?" "Oh, good gods no, it's the cheapest. If you want good, pay for it".



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I don't think I ever said MT will improve my TKD.  I think it will provide some insight into other situations outside WTF TKD. For instance, I tried a ITF TKD club and for the first time did a jab/cross/slip/hook combo.  I never EVER saw that in my WTF TKD classes.  Definitely good to try something new.



Er… you never saw a boxing combo in a TKD class? Uh… because it's not TKD? It's an expression of boxing that had been imported… 

What it's going to come down to is what you're training for. If the aim of the school is to train for TKD competition, training things outside of TKD is rather redundant and time-consuming… if you're training for generic "fighting skills", you'll get people bringing in a range of things that aren't part of the art, because they think they "fill a gap"… except they move you away from the actual system itself.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Schools tend to accept BB more than color belt rankings.  I've heard of schools not giving the KKW certificate if you leave right after the test.  So I will wait. In terms of pride, that's 1 of the 7 deadly sins right?  If someone asks I'll say I'm a BB, but I'll also add that it doesn;t mean I am Bruce Lee.  I am better than some, worse than others.



Okay… but you haven't really answered the question. For one thing, it's quite rare for schools to be more accepting of black belts than anything else… and most who try it have a false idea of what it means (based on their personal experience and perspective), and quickly recant. But the point is, if you're leaving, what does it matter if you're on their website? Your black belt only means anything in your school… you walk out the door, you're back to nothing. Sure, you still have the skills… but the rank is only an indication of where you are in the hierarchy and progression of that school… you may be a black belt there, but you walk into my school, and you're a mukyu (no rank)… same as if I walk into, say, an Aikido school (where I'm unranked).

So, if your'e leaving, why do you need to wait for the listing on the website? Is it just for your own sense of achievement? And, if so, doesn't that go against what you've posted here? 



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think you would literally have to be mentally handicapped to fail out of high school IF YOU TRIED.  A high school diploma is critical to doing anything (even barber school where I live) so schools want everyone to be able to graduate.  The marks and courses may be different for a genius vs a bottom student, but they both graduate. Maybe it's different where you live, but where I live there are all sorts of options for people who can't handle the regular classes but still want a high school diploma.



Sure, there's a lot of support, and schools want everyone to pass… but people still don't. Some drop out. Some don't make the grade, so to speak. That's reality, no matter your beliefs on the matter.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> If you say so.  I personally haven't seen it at KKW/WTF TKD schools.



Well, let's suggest my experience might be a bit wider.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Finally I am not sure why you seem to be taking things personally.  If BB is a big source of pride for you, great.  I was only asking how people felt when they got there BB, not trying to convince everyone that everyone should have the same ambivalence as me.



This isn't me taking anything personally… I haven't said anything about my personal attitude towards my black belt… honestly, I have more pride in promoting students to that level than I have in my own rank… what I'm interested in, though, is in understanding the motivations of others… and yours intrigued me. Both in what you said, and in why you posted in the first place. You're quite simply advertising your disenchantment in your school and your lack of appreciation of what you've achieved… which reflects a lack of respect in what your school teaches. And I find that both odd and interesting.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 14, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Mike Trout is 24 years old. He has less time in baseball than you do in martial arts. Yet you consider yourself a beginner, but not him? Mike is the best player in baseball at this time. and you're right, he's not a beginner. I'm just not sure where this beginner stuff is coming from. A beginner is someone who is just starting out in my opinion. Again, just my perspective.
> Ok, you're not a baseball fan. Do you consider Ronda Rousey a beginner? I assume you know who Ronda is.


Of course she is. Call her an old timer, to her face, and watch what happens.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 14, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> So where did you drop the ball? If your kicks were better before, what changed in your approach to them? What changed in your practice? Why are you practicing less? And is that the fault of the belt and your rank?.


I am pracitising less due to work. I'm now about 10 pounds heavier which is not too large, but it's an indication that I am doing less of all my exercises including TKD.




Chris Parker said:


> So… you chose the school based on a budget… and you're wondering why the skill level isn't at the range you want it to be?.


More the lack of a 12 month contract, since I was sure if I would be able to continue in TKD regularly once I started a new job. The thing I liked about the style was that it was "kicking, kicking, and more kicking" and I wanted to get better at kicking as opposed to poomsae or predetermined one step sparrings.




Chris Parker said:


> What it's going to come down to is what you're training for. If the aim of the school is to train for TKD competition, training things outside of TKD is rather redundant and time-consuming… if you're training for generic "fighting skills", you'll get people bringing in a range of things that aren't part of the art, because they think they "fill a gap"… except they move you away from the actual system itself..


I'm training for fun and interest.  I find other techniques outside TKD to be both interesting and practicial.  And I'd like to see more of the problems of using tkd techniques outside of tkd rules....to understand better the pluses and minuses of the tkd techniques.




Chris Parker said:


> But the point is, if you're leaving, what does it matter if you're on their website?


I was referring to the Kukkiwon website, not the school website.
 Poom Dan SEARCH 
And yes, that ranking matters to other KKW/WTF schools.



Chris Parker said:


> You're quite simply advertising your disenchantment in your school and your lack of appreciation of what you've achieved… which reflects a lack of respect in what your school teaches.


It has nothing to do with my school.  I just am not as good as I was when I practised more.  I think that pride comes feeling that you did very well, and I knew in the recent months leading up to my testing that I would have done better kicks previously when I was more active in tkd.

Wanting to try other disciplines doesn't speak poorly of my school. Trying something new can sometimes be about trying something new, not leaving something old.


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## Chrisoro (Aug 14, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I was referring to the Kukkiwon website, not the school website.
> Poom Dan SEARCH
> And yes, that ranking matters to other KKW/WTF schools.



The search engine KKW employs there, is quite horrible. In order for my rank to come up I have to write my full name, all four parts of it. If I don't, i.e. if I just write my first and last name, or use any combination of my four legal names, it doesn't find me at all.

For a few seconds there, I thought I was deleted from the database or something.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 14, 2015)

Yes, I was wondering whether I need my middle initial, or even middle name.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 14, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Nonetheless, what did it feel like for you once you got your BB?



I was 17 when I got my BB. Normally there were many BB's in class on a Friday night, but I was highest rank there that night. My master called me forward, said a few nice things, we bowed & then he started class. It was a bit disappointing that there weren't more people there to see it happen, but I felt great otherwise. I didn't quite feel "worhty" of the rank for about 6 months. But that says more about me at the time than anything that happened.


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## Tames D (Aug 14, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay. Honestly, then… get over it. You were still very much at the beginning of your journey. You don't like having that (perceived) level of skill as being a "beginner"? Fine. I'd still consider you one (at that point).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tames D (Aug 14, 2015)

Perspective Chris, Perspective. Don't tell me I'm wrong and you're right. Feel free to turn it into an attack. I can handle it. Bring it on.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think you would literally have to be mentally handicapped to fail out of high school IF YOU TRIED. A high school diploma is critical to doing anything (even barber school where I live) so schools want everyone to be able to graduate. The marks and courses may be different for a genius vs a bottom student, but they both graduate. Maybe it's different where you live, but where I live there are all sorts of options for people who can't handle the regular classes but still want a high school diploma.



In the UK we don't have 'high school diplomas', we have exams that you pass at various grades or you fail. We don't graduate from 'high school', many  leave secondary education with no qualifications at all (that's a political hot potato here). I've also seen black belt aspirants fail their Dan tests and have to try again. From what I've seen of TKD here it's not the norm to pass everyone automatically after attending for a couple of years. I'm sure there are places in various styles that take your money and hand over belts but I think it's possibly not as normal as many think.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 15, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> From what I've seen of TKD here it's not the norm to pass everyone automatically after attending for a couple of years.


Is that KKW style schools?  I don't want to say that here everyone passes "automatically", but the bar is low enough here that everyone passes as they progress on their colour belt test every 2-3 months, and BB test at around the 3 year mark. Here at the KKW schools I've been to, it is basically "show up and try"...not sure if that is "automatic" to you.


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## WaterGal (Aug 15, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Is that KKW style schools?  I don't want to say that here everyone passes "automatically", but the bar is low enough here that everyone passes as they progress on their colour belt test every 2-3 months, and BB test at around the 3 year mark. Here at the KKW schools I've been to, it is basically "show up and try"...not sure if that is "automatic" to you.



_Everybody _tests every 2-3 months and everybody passes that test?  Regardless of how well they know the material?  

This kind of approach at some schools is I guess why KKW felt the need to make the rules change discussed on the other thread....


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Is that KKW style schools?  I don't want to say that here everyone passes "automatically", but the bar is low enough here that everyone passes as they progress on their colour belt test every 2-3 months, and BB test at around the 3 year mark. Here at the KKW schools I've been to, it is basically "show up and try"...not sure if that is "automatic" to you.




I'd leave that to someone like Andy Jeffries to give you a precise answer and also because I'm pretty sure he doesn't do that but I'm also pretty sure you can't generalise about the world's TKD classes just because a few you know grade that way. The standard I've seen of TKD seems pretty good here from what I've seen of the TKD students who have trained with us, children too.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 16, 2015)

Another Story. First Background for non ITF stylists.   ITF uses Roman Numerals on Belts to denote rank. Now the story.   A Senior once said "You ain't spit unless you have a "V" on your belt. (OK, so he didn't say "Spit" but a word that sounded like it.)

So, when I got a "V"   (I think an "IV) I said   "Now I am Spit because   >>Name of Senior<< said so."


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Aug 16, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> _Everybody _tests every 2-3 months and everybody passes that test?  Regardless of how well they know the material?


I think your question should be "regardless of how well they can perform the material".  But yes, everyone who showed up would learn for example taegeuk X well enough to pass.  If the technique was a kick, the kick might be done very poorly, but it's still the required kick.

Again. it's the much debated question on standards.


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## Tiger-eye (Aug 23, 2015)

I was more proud of earning my second degree than my first. I was mad at myself for not breaking all the boards at my first degree test to be happy lol.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 24, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I am pracitising less due to work. I'm now about 10 pounds heavier which is not too large, but it's an indication that I am doing less of all my exercises including TKD.



So, if you're practicing less, how is that a failing of your black belt ranking and school?



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> More the lack of a 12 month contract, since I was sure if I would be able to continue in TKD regularly once I started a new job. The thing I liked about the style was that it was "kicking, kicking, and more kicking" and I wanted to get better at kicking as opposed to poomsae or predetermined one step spar rings.



Okay… you do understand that what makes the art what it is is found more in the poomsae than the "kicking, kicking, and more kicking", yeah?



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I'm training for fun and interest.  I find other techniques outside TKD to be both interesting and practicial.  And I'd like to see more of the problems of using tkd techniques outside of tkd rules....to understand better the pluses and minuses of the tkd techniques.



Okay.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I was referring to the Kukkiwon website, not the school website.
> Poom Dan SEARCH
> And yes, that ranking matters to other KKW/WTF schools.



Sure, but if you're wanting to go to other arts, why would you need to wait for your name to be on the website? Unless this is because you also want to continue your TKD at another school…?



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> It has nothing to do with my school.  I just am not as good as I was when I practised more.  I think that pride comes feeling that you did very well, and I knew in the recent months leading up to my testing that I would have done better kicks previously when I was more active in tkd.



Again, that's a failing of your rank or the school how? Because that's the way you've described it, intentionally or not.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Wanting to try other disciplines doesn't speak poorly of my school. Trying something new can sometimes be about trying something new, not leaving something old.



True, but the motivations have been what I've been trying to get to the heart of.



Tames D said:


> Perspective Chris, Perspective. Don't tell me I'm wrong and you're right. Feel free to turn it into an attack. I can handle it. Bring it on.



Honestly, Tim, you're acting like a child. I didn't tell you you were wrong, I questioned your response. It wasn't an attack, other than in your mind. I suggest you take a step back and look at things a little clearer, if you can.


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## Tames D (Aug 24, 2015)

Ok Chris, I
 just took a step back and unfortunately I still see you as a bully. It's not gonna work with me dude.You treat everyone like a child, an inferior. 
STOP NOW.You are a Mentor. Act like one. Stop what you are doing.






stop


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## Chris Parker (Aug 28, 2015)

Tim, I'm not going to continue this here. I'll look for you in the Mentor threads.


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## elder999 (Sep 1, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I got my black belt a few weeks ago and the KJN asked me this question after my 1st subsequent class.
> 
> Although I know he wanted to hear "great" or something similar, my honest answer was a little disappointing in that I felt that my kicking was better before, when I was working less and going to TKD more than my current 1-2 times per week.
> 
> ...



Well, it depends......

Judo? Basically was just handed to me: it was shiai, and sensei said, "_Here, put this on. I've entered you as a shodan_." That was it. Really. I was 16, and it was kind of a letdown-paperwork came through later that year, and there was a "formal ceremony," but it was all so anticlimactic.

Tae kwon do? It was Duk Sung Son's  World Tae Kwon DO Association. I was 16, and it felt great..It was easy and also anti-climactic, though: basically, in the WTA, we tested once a year on one form a year. After five years, I got it.

Kyokushin? Later that same summer, and pretty tough, and great-but here's the important part, and probably a big part of why I gave up on TKD and stayed with Kyokushin. After passing my grading and going through the ceremony for my belt and certificate,, I was told to take a week off, and come in for a special "shodan class." So my fellow shodan and I arrived for the class, expecting some sort of special "_secret advanced indoctrination black belt level clas_s," (  ) and were, instead, reminded that "shodan" means *first step.*

We did _taikyoku shodan, _ one of the first kata we learned as white belts.....over, and over, and over again, with our seniors (and my Kyokushin seniors were _legends_, like Willie Williams, who was HUGE and literally scared the **** out of me!) constantly 'correcting" us, and, by :"correcting us," I don't mean _telling_ us what we were doing wrong.

That was a Saturday, and on Sunday, I had to be an acolyte for my dad at church....I could barely move, let alone deal with all that Episcopalian standing up/kneeling/sitting down stuff, with bells, incense and candles besides.....38 years ago, and still a day that makes me shudder.

Showed up for class on Monday evening, though...17 years old...I must have  been nuts.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (Probably still am! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

All the other belts? Except for 1st kyu in Miyama ryu,, fairly laid-back. Just another day at the dojo......


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 12, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> The search engine KKW employs there, is quite horrible. In order for my rank to come up I have to write my full name, all four parts of it. If I don't, i.e. if I just write my first and last name, or use any combination of my four legal names, it doesn't find me at all.
> 
> For a few seconds there, I thought I was deleted from the database or something.


I've been checking regularly, and this week the KJN said he will be submitting the application to the KKW next week.  The test was mid-July.  He was travelling during August and he said that he had to be home to sign for the certificate, and he didn't want to have it sent back since he was away.  So I have 1 more month of waiting.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 14, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I got my black belt a few weeks ago and the KJN asked me this question after my 1st subsequent class.
> 
> Although I know he wanted to hear "great" or something similar, my honest answer was a little disappointing in that I felt that my kicking was better before, when I was working less and going to TKD more than my current 1-2 times per week.
> 
> ...



It wasn't a big deal.  Just another step along a long path.  Too be honest, I can't even find my BB.  I guess it's in the closet but haven't seen it in years (we don't wear belts during training).  Think that last time I wore it was for a photo op back around 2005 or so.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 14, 2015)

Mine was very gratifying.  I had studied hard, going to the dojang usually at least 5, sometimes 6 times a week.  I had taught myself to react to an attack without thinking what was easy, but what seem appropriate, or just came to mind.  Even when I didn't study under my Grand Master, I studied under at least a 2nd Dan, or more likely a 3rd Dan.  Then, to make things different, Black Belt tests were delayed about 3 months as they were in the process of renovating the headquarters building in Seoul, and were having problems with the contractor.

Finally Grand Masters were allowed to do their own tests.  I was blessed to be personally complimented by a couple of the masters for my techniques and power.  So yes, it was a big thing to me; those kind of compliments didn't come easily.

As to the question of is the Black Belt just the beginning of the journey, I would say it should be a question of perspective.  When I learned TKD under Jhoon Goo Rhee (then a 6th Degree Black Belt), if you attained black belt (which wasn't done quickly, nor did I study long enough to attain), you had many abilities not known to the common man.  But I am sure there was much to learn, and much to refine.  The same in the Hapkido I studied, but there is a constant progression of techniques to learn as well.  If you were taught, and learned, in that old way, BB was a worthy accomplishment, which should have been a source of pride.  At least from my perspective.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 14, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I'm looking to do some muay thai in order to improve upon 3 things:
> 1) fighting stance where punches to the head are allowed
> 2) punching, including kick/punch combinations
> 3) what I am exposing myself to when I throw a kick
> ...


 
Your life is your own.  But in Korea, my understanding is that usually people wait until 3rd Dan, then are encouraged to study another MA to 1st Dan, then decide if their original art is the one they wish to concentrate on.  But I also understand that few progress beyond 1st Dan in their original art, which is usually TKD.

If you do decide to progress in TKD, I sure would encourage you to find a school where you think you are learning rather than being graded on attendance.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 14, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> Your life is your own.  But in Korea, my understanding is that usually people wait until 3rd Dan, then are encouraged to study another MA to 1st Dan, then decide if their original art is the one they wish to concentrate on.  But I also understand that few progress beyond 1st Dan in their original art, which is usually TKD.
> 
> If you do decide to progress in TKD, I sure would encourage you to find a school where you think you are learning rather than being graded on attendance.


The MT school I was thinking about moved farther from my home, so that idea is gone.  I may try another TKD school, but I heard the BB testing is $1000, so I'd have to ask if they are ok with me not testing beyond my current 1st dan.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 14, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I may try another TKD school, but I heard the BB testing is $1000, so I'd have to ask if they are ok with me not testing beyond my current 1st dan.


 Is that sort of pricing at all typical for TKD schools? The only way I'm paying $1000 for a belt is if it's freaking *megingjörð.*


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 15, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Is that sort of pricing at all typical for TKD schools? The only way I'm paying $1000 for a belt is if it's freaking *megingjörð.*



Unfortunately Tony, that isn't the worst I've heard.  I know of someone that paid $1500 for a 1st Dan in Hapkido as well as a TKD school that offered Hapkido BB's after one weekend of training (for several hundred dollars of course).  And let me clarify, the only requirement was already having a BB in TKD and taking the weekend course.  And the BB in Hapkido wasn't necessarily a 1st Dan either, it could be a higher Dan depending upon whatever your TKD rank was.  Again, as long as you paid for the test. 

For some the martial arts is a passion and pursuit.  For others it is a scam.  But then it's a free market so if someone is stupid enough to pay $1000 for a piece of paper and a piece of cloth then so be it.  As they say, a fool and his money is soon parted. 

As far as the OP topic, how should you feel?  A small sense of accomplishment and nothing more.  If it is more than that...you've missed the point.


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## EddieCyrax (Sep 15, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> The MT school I was thinking about moved farther from my home, so that idea is gone.  I may try another TKD school, but I heard the BB testing is $1000, so I'd have to ask if they are ok with me not testing beyond my current 1st dan.



$1000 ?!?!?!

Is it made of gold????


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 15, 2015)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Unfortunately Tony, that isn't the worst I've heard. I know of someone that paid $1500 for a 1st Dan in Hapkido as well as a TKD school that offered Hapkido BB's after one weekend of training (for several hundred dollars of course). And let me clarify, the only requirement was already having a BB in TKD and taking the weekend course. And the BB in Hapkido wasn't necessarily a 1st Dan either, it could be a higher Dan depending upon whatever your TKD rank was. Again, as long as you paid for the test.
> 
> For some the martial arts is a passion and pursuit. For others it is a scam. But then it's a free market so if someone is stupid enough to pay $1000 for a piece of paper and a piece of cloth then so be it. As they say, a fool and his money is soon parted.


Man, I think I've been missing out on a serious business opportunity!

Okay, special announcement! Anybody who is considering paying $1000 for a belt test - I am hereby offering a 20% discount! That's right, for only $800 I will evaluate your video performance* and send you a classy black belt certificate and a high-quality belt embroidered with your name. I'll even enter your name in a special registry available online so anyone will be able to check and see your name listed.

*(The evaluation will be based on very strict criteria like "did the check clear?")


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## elder999 (Sep 15, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Man, I think I've been missing out on a serious business opportunity!
> 
> Okay, special announcement! Anybody who is considering paying $1000 for a belt test - I am hereby offering a 20% discount! That's right, for only $800 I will evaluate your video performance* and send you a classy black belt certificate and a high-quality belt embroidered with your name. I'll even enter your name in a special registry available online so anyone will be able to check and see your name listed.
> 
> *(The evaluation will be based on very strict criteria like "did the check clear?")



Funnily enough, that seems to be several online "instructor's" business model....

(for the record, again, I don't think any "test" has ever cost me more than $200,most  far less-and some weren't charged for at all.... "What does it feel like to get your black belt?" Not like my wallet got any lighter, that's for sure....)


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 15, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Man, I think I've been missing out on a serious business opportunity!
> 
> Okay, special announcement! Anybody who is considering paying $1000 for a belt test - I am hereby offering a 20% discount! That's right, for only $800 I will evaluate your video performance* and send you a classy black belt certificate and a high-quality belt embroidered with your name. I'll even enter your name in a special registry available online so anyone will be able to check and see your name listed.
> 
> *(The evaluation will be based on very strict criteria like "did the check clear?")


 
Sorry Tony, several TKD and/or HKD orgs have beat you to it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 15, 2015)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Sorry Tony, several TKD and/or HKD orgs have beat you to it.


Darn it!

Okay, let's get serious. Just enter the special code "MARTIALTALK" at checkout for an _additional_ 20% discount. That's right, just $600 dollars for certificate, belt, your name in the registry, *and*, if you act now, a special membership card.

It's a bargain!


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 16, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Darn it!
> 
> Okay, let's get serious. Just enter the special code "MARTIALTALK" at checkout for an _additional_ 20% discount. That's right, just $600 dollars for certificate, belt, your name in the registry, *and*, if you act now, a special membership card.
> 
> It's a bargain!


 
Doggone!  I was going to undercut your $800 and do the same thing.  Now you have dropped your fee to $700.  I don't think I care to drop that far.  I do have standards you know. 

But if I do, I can anticipate some of my potential clients declining my generous offer of a black belt for under $700, however unlikely.  But some may, no doubt thinking my fees are too low to be of value.  If so, I will be happy to refer them to you (for a finder's fee of course).


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 16, 2015)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Unfortunately Tony, that isn't the worst I've heard.  I know of someone that paid $1500 for a 1st Dan in Hapkido as well as a TKD school that offered Hapkido BB's after one weekend of training (for several hundred dollars of course).  And let me clarify, the only requirement was already having a BB in TKD and taking the weekend course.  And the BB in Hapkido wasn't necessarily a 1st Dan either, it could be a higher Dan depending upon whatever your TKD rank was.  Again, as long as you paid for the test.
> 
> For some the martial arts is a passion and pursuit.  For others it is a scam.  But then it's a free market so if someone is stupid enough to pay $1000 for a piece of paper and a piece of cloth then so be it.  As they say, a fool and his money is soon parted.
> 
> As far as the OP topic, how should you feel?  A small sense of accomplishment and nothing more.  If it is more than that...you've missed the point.


 
I remember you posting on this before.  It still surprises me to read it again.  How can people, teachers or students, do such things and then the students presumable hang the certificates in their dojangs?

I get it that a MA school must be a business as well, but phony certificates, or $1000 for testing when a student has already probably contributed substantially to the longevity of the school, is amazing.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 16, 2015)

EddieCyrax said:


> $1000 ?!?!?!
> 
> Is it made of gold????


I posted before 2 things at different times: 1) this school was bought out by a chain school; 2) before the takeover, I looked at the school and asked about BB testing fees for 1st dan.  The answer was "we charge $600, the same as the other Korean schools".  

What is new is last week I stopped by after getting a haircut next door, and I started talking with a mom.  Her daughter had tested in March (6 months ago) and had paid $900 for 2nd poom.  She hadn't received her certificate yet, and the school under new ownership told her to talk with the previous owners.  The new school has raised prices on fees, so I have no doubt that testing fees are now also higher.


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## evelbug (Sep 17, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I posted before 2 things at different times: 1) this school was bought out by a chain school; 2) before the takeover, I looked at the school and asked about BB testing fees for 1st dan.  The answer was "we charge $600, the same as the other Korean schools".
> 
> What is new is last week I stopped by after getting a haircut next door, and I started talking with a mom.  Her daughter had tested in March (6 months ago) and had paid $900 for 2nd poom.  She hadn't received her certificate yet, and the school under new ownership told her to talk with the previous owners.  The new school has raised prices on fees, so I have no doubt that testing fees are now also higher.



Wow. Talk about putting the dough in Tae Kwon Do.  I'm testing for my first dan in a couple weeks.  My school is charging $250 for the black belt test and required black belt camp a couple weeks before the test.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2015)

It is more than a little pointless to compare prices when you have no idea what's included in that price.


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 18, 2015)

Prices for authentic Kukkiwon certificates often used to be outrageous (probably still are in some schools). If you have something that is "exclusive" you can name your price as long as people are willing to pay. 

I suspect that prices have come down some since the actual costs are readily available via the internet these days and potential black belts can find out how much mark up is involved if they put forth any effort. 

I think Tony may be leaving money on the table, though. I heard of an instructor asking $10,000 for a 4th Dan Kukkiwon cert. At 4th you can start awarding certs yourself^^. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 18, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Darn it!
> 
> Okay, let's get serious. Just enter the special code "MARTIALTALK" at checkout for an _additional_ 20% discount. That's right, just $600 dollars for certificate, belt, your name in the registry, *and*, if you act now, a special membership card.
> 
> It's a bargain!



Pfff...

Both you and oftheherd1 may be offering a discount on a BB, but I'm offering titles baby!

Master for $500
Grandmaster for $1000
Great Grandmaster $1200
Supreme Grandmaster $1500

And I'm running a special on Professor and/or Dr. and/or PhD.MA for $250. 

All come with a nice certificate of authenticity (your choice of peacock or dragon).


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 18, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> I remember you posting on this before.  It still surprises me to read it again.  How can people, teachers or students, do such things and then the students presumable hang the certificates in their dojangs?
> 
> I get it that a MA school must be a business as well, but phony certificates, or $1000 for testing when a student has already probably contributed substantially to the longevity of the school, is amazing.



I thought it was a gag at first.  Nope, it was real.  It was a KKW TKD school run by a KKW 8th Dan.  I called them personally to verify.  And I know the instructor is an actual KKW 8th Dan.  Apparently he had a buddy that was an 8th Dan in Hakido (I don't recall the Hapkido org but remember it was one of the bigger and supposedly legitimate ones).  And no exaggeration, if you were a TKD BB (with NO previous HKD experience) you could take the weekend course (class on Friday evening, all day Saturday and test on Sunday morning) and if you passed the test you received a HKD Dan certification from this HKD organization.  So figure in reality you can only be tested on what was taught the previous two days.  And the level of the Dan was tied to your TKD BB level so you weren't necessarily testing for a first Dan in HKD.  Been a while but I think it was something like a first HKD Dan if you were a TKD 1-3 Dan, a second HKD Dan if you were a TKD 4th and so on from there.  Basically two below you TKD rank if you were 'up' there in TKD.  Something to that effect. 

Bottom line is forget what's on the wall and judge an instructor by what you see and how they teach.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 19, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> It is more than a little pointless to compare prices when you have no idea what's included in that price.


Agreed, my current school charge me $380 for a test as basic as any other test.  My prior school charged $600, but that included 3 months of extra classes (around 4hrs extra per week).  So big picture, the $600 is a better deal.


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## Buka (Sep 19, 2015)

For the first ten years I trained Martial Arts I had never heard of a school charge for a Black Belt. For the second ten years I trained I had never heard of a school, other than Fred's, charge for a Black Belt. For the third ten years, it sorta' went into the crapper.

These last ten years - my original thought is "are you ******** me?" 
But, when you think about it, it kind of makes sense. Perfect sense, in fact. Either find a dojo where you earn a belt, or find a dojo where you buy a belt. You know why that's so awesome?

Because, the best thing in life a man can have in any endeavor, the absolute best fricken thing, is "a choice".


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 21, 2015)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I thought it was a gag at first.  Nope, it was real.  It was a KKW TKD school run by a KKW 8th Dan.  I called them personally to verify.  And I know the instructor is an actual KKW 8th Dan.  Apparently he had a buddy that was an 8th Dan in Hakido (I don't recall the Hapkido org but remember it was one of the bigger and supposedly legitimate ones).  And no exaggeration, if you were a TKD BB (with NO previous HKD experience) you could take the weekend course (class on Friday evening, all day Saturday and test on Sunday morning) and if you passed the test you received a HKD Dan certification from this HKD organization.  So figure in reality you can only be tested on what was taught the previous two days.  And the level of the Dan was tied to your TKD BB level so you weren't necessarily testing for a first Dan in HKD.  Been a while but I think it was something like a first HKD Dan if you were a TKD 1-3 Dan, a second HKD Dan if you were a TKD 4th and so on from there.  Basically two below you TKD rank if you were 'up' there in TKD.  Something to that effect.
> 
> *Bottom line is forget what's on the wall and judge an instructor by what you see and how they teach*.


 
Always the best advice!  Thanks.


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## WaterGal (Sep 21, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> It is more than a little pointless to compare prices when you have no idea what's included in that price.



That's a good point.  If one place charges $300 for only the test and a KKW cert, and another charges $400 but includes a new uniform and a black belt with your name embroidered on it, and another charges $500 but you get some private lessons to help you prepare.... the latter two aren't necessarily ripping you off.  

But I think someone that charges $1,000 for a KKW 1st Dan is ripping you off.


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## GiYu - Todd (Sep 24, 2015)

The class after earning my shodan was very instructive for me. 
I paired up with a yondan to practice a relatively simple technique we had worked on the previous week. The previous week, I was able to easily throw him.  Now with my BB on, I tried the same move, and failed.  Then failed again.  I asked him what I'm doing differently, and he said "nothing... we just expect more out of you now". 
Other higher BBs started pushing me harder too, giving me an occasional "tap" if I didn't guard properly, etc, where before I thought I had been doing things right.  They said I'm now ready to fine tune my techniques, so they would no longer allow slop from me.  For awhile, it was frustrating, but it has made me much better since.


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