# Full Contact Wing Tsun/Chun Video's.



## jeff_hasbrouck (Nov 11, 2012)

So there is a fella who posts these on youtube, and they are epic... I'll upload 2 for ya'll to see on here.












Enjoy!


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## mook jong man (Nov 11, 2012)

They have guts , but there are quite a few technical flaws.
Some of the major things I noticed.

Their guards are extended out too far , very hard to generate striking power from there or have the necessary structure to deflect force.

They keep dropping their guards down and bending down to use their hands to stop low kicks , keep the back straight keep the guard up in front of your face and use the legs to jam incoming kicks.

Too high up in their stance.

Apart from a few instances , not aggressive enough in moving forward into close range to go through the opponent.
Also quite a lot of waiting for the opponent to initiate instead of them bridging the gap and moving in with their own attacks.

Now a bit of a controversial one , I am not a fan of the one leg forward stance.
I believe it leaves that front leg open to be low heel kicked , I also think it is not as stable as having the feet equidistant from the opponent.

I think it also makes it slower to move into range when you jam with the front leg and then you have to bring that rear leg forward.
Having both legs equal in weighting and distance from the opponent gives the ability to jam with either leg and step in with either leg and cover more ground in a more fluid and natural action similar to walking.


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## cwk (Nov 12, 2012)

First of all, kudos to the guys in the vid for getting in there are testing their art. It takes guts to put yourself out there but it's the only way to find out how good you REALLY are ( and from my own fighting/sparring experiences, it's a far cry from how good you THINK you are haha).
I saw the same problems as mook jong man, stance to high, guard extended etc. One other thing that always gets me about youtube wing chun fight clips, is the constant head hunting with chain punches. I'm yet to see a clip where the wing chun guy attacks at different levels and uses different anatomical weapons. In that second clip, whenever he landed the first 2-3 chain punches, the taekwondo guy tried to cover up upstairs. what was stopping the wing chun guy from  striking the solar plexus with a pao choi or the liver or spleen with a palm strike? he could have stepped in with a knee to the body and followed up with an elbow strike or two.
So many weapons in our system but all you ever see is chain punching to the head.
I'm not trying to sound like I'm a great fighter or that I have all the answers because I don't and I know talking about doing something is a lot easier than doing it. Still, it'd be nice to see something other than chain punches for a change haha.


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## mook jong man (Nov 12, 2012)

cwk said:


> First of all, kudos to the guys in the vid for getting in there are testing their art. It takes guts to put yourself out there but it's the only way to find out how good you REALLY are ( and from my own fighting/sparring experiences, it's a far cry from how good you THINK you are haha).
> I saw the same problems as mook jong man, stance to high, guard extended etc. One other thing that always gets me about youtube wing chun fight clips, is the constant head hunting with chain punches. I'm yet to see a clip where the wing chun guy attacks at different levels and uses different anatomical weapons. In that second clip, whenever he landed the first 2-3 chain punches, the taekwondo guy tried to cover up upstairs. what was stopping the wing chun guy from  striking the solar plexus with a pao choi or the liver or spleen with a palm strike? he could have stepped in with a knee to the body and followed up with an elbow strike or two.
> So many weapons in our system but all you ever see is chain punching to the head.



I agree , when the arms are up high covering the head , that really is begging for a low sidewards palm strike or the other techniques you mentioned.
It should really be instinctive to attack the sector on the opponent that is not being guarded.

I remember seeing my master Pak Sau a rather large fellows guard who then put up a bit of resistance , soon as the guy started to resist upstairs my master Pak sau'd his arm again and drilled him in the rib cage with the chum Kiu uppercut.
I reckon you just have to have the idea of taking the path of least resistance and attacking where it is undefended.


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## geezer (Nov 12, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Now a bit of a controversial one , I am not a fan of the one leg forward stance.
> I believe it leaves that front leg open to be low heel kicked , I also think it is not as stable as having the feet equidistant from the opponent.



I'd agree with most of what you said, but  personally I do tend to favor what you called the "one-leg forward stance". A basic strategy is to start from a neutral stance (sort of a loose version of YGKYM) and try to bait my opponent into a committed attack, then explode forward and intercepting your opponent and pressing your own attack with "pursuing steps". From that point on you have one leg forward until you have a reason to change (i.e. your opponent's pressure).

On the other hand, part of my reason for favoring the "one leg forward" or "advancing step" position is personal --not lineage based. I've got messed up ankles, and one is a lot worse, so symmetry in stances never works for my like it should! My old Chinese instructor used to point out that _starting_ an exchange with one foot forward limited your options, since you can't turn both ways, and also that you cant explode forward as far or fast as from YGKYM.


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## yak sao (Nov 12, 2012)

geezer said:


> I'd agree with most of what you said, but personally I do tend to favor what you called the "one-leg forward stance". A basic strategy is to start from a neutral stance (sort of a loose version of YGKYM) and try to bait my opponent into a committed attack, then explode forward and intercepting your opponent and pressing your own attack with "pursuing steps". From that point on you have one leg forward until you have a reason to change (i.e. your opponent's pressure).
> 
> On the other hand, part of my reason for favoring the "one leg forward" or "advancing step" position is personal --not lineage based. I've got messed up ankles, and one is a lot worse, so symmetry in stances never works for my like it should! *My old Chinese instructor used to point out that starting an exchange with one foot forward limited your options, since you can't turn both ways, and also that you cant explode forward as far or fast as from YGKYM*.



Not to mention that you're giving them a target to kick or grab if they shoot in.


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## WC_lun (Nov 12, 2012)

My biggest issue with the male WC guy was the stance he started in.  Splitting an opponent's forward leg like that is dangerous as it opens up the low line centerline.  Low kicks are generally way too fast to depend upon stance shifts to counter them.  If not countered that is a kick to a very sensitive place.  Given an opponent that knows how (another WC practitioner perhaps) the center can be taken quickly, leaving no choice but to go into recovery mode.

I did enjoy his defense and counter fighting, by taking what is given.  It is obvious he has experience and is relying on his Wing Chun training. He was very fluid and did take his opponent's weaknesses very well.


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## mook jong man (Nov 12, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> My biggest issue with the male WC guy was the stance he started in.  Splitting an opponent's forward leg like that is dangerous as it opens up the low line centerline.  Low kicks are generally way too fast to depend upon stance shifts to counter them.  If not countered that is a kick to a very sensitive place.  Given an opponent that knows how (another WC practitioner perhaps) the center can be taken quickly, leaving no choice but to go into recovery mode.
> 
> I did enjoy his defense and counter fighting, by taking what is given.  It is obvious he has experience and is relying on his Wing Chun training. He was very fluid and did take his opponent's weaknesses very well.



It only becomes an issue if your standing there at close range and not moving forward and punching , if you go straight through them at a great  rate of knots they can't knee , elbow , kick or do anything except try and cover up and struggle to keep their balance.

Having said that you  definitely don't want to be in the position of having someones leg in close proximity of your centerline if you are not already effecting their balance and attacking them in some way.
You have to take care of that leg first before you start engaging with the hands , you need something to momentarily cover your groin as you move into punching range , easiest option is probably a low heel kick , or a shin to shin leg locking , or even a hook kick to the inner thigh.


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## mook jong man (Nov 12, 2012)

geezer said:


> I'd agree with most of what you said, but  personally I do tend to favor what you called the "one-leg forward stance". A basic strategy is to start from a neutral stance (sort of a loose version of YGKYM) and try to bait my opponent into a committed attack, then explode forward and intercepting your opponent and pressing your own attack with "pursuing steps". From that point on you have one leg forward until you have a reason to change (i.e. your opponent's pressure).
> 
> On the other hand, part of my reason for favoring the "one leg forward" or "advancing step" position is personal --not lineage based. I've got messed up ankles, and one is a lot worse, so symmetry in stances never works for my like it should! My old Chinese instructor used to point out that _starting_ an exchange with one foot forward limited your options, since you can't turn both ways, and also that you cant explode forward as far or fast as from YGKYM.



That reminds me Geezer , I remember in one of your posts from a while back that you said that you do something , I think you called it "stance sparring".
We tried it out the other week , or as close to what I think you meant.
Anyway it was a great workout and a hell of a lot of fun , very similar to Chi Gerk in a lot of ways .

Do you think you could explain how you do it again , if you don't mind , it would be much appreciated.
We sort of started off in an inside shin to inside shin leg lock position , and proceeded to move around a bit and try to sweep each other and leg lock each other.
Was that the basic gist of the drill that you do ?


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## geezer (Nov 12, 2012)

You got it Mook. Think simplified chi-gherk without the kicks. As you said, you can start shin to shin (like going for a leg a leg-lock, or start apart in YGKYM and then one person will quickly advance in on the other person (kind of like advancing in on the dummy) trying to deflect his leg (or move around it) and take control of his center of balance. The defender may either root and obstruct the advance, or be very soft and use foot circles to reverse the threat. Sweeps, checks, even body bumps are fair game. Make up your own rules.

What I like about "games" like this is that, besides being fun, they really show how important your structure, stance and steps are to success in sparring. Somebody once told me that, "If Karate is like a heavy tank with a cannon, then WC is like those fast jeeps with a machine-gun in the back like ing the old TV series _Rat Patrol"._ Good Lord, I'm showing my age now. Does anybody even remember that show?


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## mook jong man (Nov 12, 2012)

geezer said:


> You got it Mook. Think simplified chi-gherk without the kicks. As you said, you can start shin to shin (like going for a leg a leg-lock, or start apart in YGKYM and then one person will quickly advance in on the other person (kind of like advancing in on the dummy) trying to deflect his leg (or move around it) and take control of his center of balance. The defender may either root and obstruct the advance, or be very soft and use foot circles to reverse the threat. Sweeps, checks, even body bumps are fair game. Make up your own rules.
> 
> What I like about "games" like this is that, besides being fun, they really show how important your structure, stance and steps are to success in sparring. Somebody once told me that, "If Karate is like a heavy tank with a cannon, then WC is like those fast jeeps with a machine-gun in the back like ing the old TV series _Rat Patrol"._ Good Lord, I'm showing my age now. Does anybody even remember that show?



Thanks for the info mate , everybody seemed to enjoy it so much I will probably make it a regular thing when I teach the boys.
Just one more question , when you do it do you have your guard up or do you have the hands pulled back so that you have to rely on stance only?


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## Snowy (Nov 13, 2012)

Here some clips of some wing chun practitioners doing fairly well. The first one quickly descends in to a ground fight though.

Good forward pressure, if lacking a bit of power behind those strikes.


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## yak sao (Nov 13, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Thanks for the info mate , everybody seemed to enjoy it so much I will probably make it a regular thing when I teach the boys.
> Just one more question , when you do it do you have your guard up or do you have the hands pulled back so that you have to rely on stance only?



Geezer and I are from the same lineage, but are on opposite sides of the country. He may do the drill differently, but we do it with either the arms chambered or behind our back


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## mook jong man (Nov 13, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Geezer and I are from the same lineage, but are on opposite sides of the country. He may do the drill differently, but we do it with either the arms chambered or behind our back



Thanks Yak , yeah I thought so.
We tried it once with the guards up, but you are so close to each other that it seemed to defeat the purpose of isolating the stance.
So we ended up keeping them chambered.


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## cwk (Nov 14, 2012)

I get my students to do the same drill/game but get them to keep their hands behind their back. I found that when things got a little bit tricky, most people would flare their elbows out and turn to stop the other person from getting too close. keeping the hands behind the back allows you to get right in to take the opponents COG and use the shoulders/ upper body to upset balance as well as the legs.


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## WingChunIan (Nov 26, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> You have to take care of that leg first before you start engaging with the hands , you need something to momentarily cover your groin as you move into punching range , easiest option is probably a low heel kick , or a shin to shin leg locking , or even a hook kick to the inner thigh.


 MJM biu ma and huen ma both provide groin coverage on the way in, my golden rule of fighting is always follow the KISS principle


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Nov 27, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> They have guts , but there are quite a few technical flaws.
> Some of the major things I noticed.
> 
> Their guards are extended out too far , very hard to generate striking power from there or have the necessary structure to deflect force.
> ...



Here is a simple thing to say, yes there are many "technical" flaws, but EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE, no matter what level they are at are not perfect. Next time ya'll throw on the gloves or go NHB'd, I would like to see the video of you doing it.


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## mook jong man (Nov 27, 2012)

jeff_hasbrouck said:


> Here is a simple thing to say, yes there are many "technical" flaws, but EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE, no matter what level they are at are not perfect. Next time ya'll throw on the gloves or go NHB'd, I would like to see the video of you doing it.



That is very true no one is perfect , least of all me.

But what is the point of putting the videos up , are we all supposed to B.S ourselves and everyone else and say that they are fantastic when we know they are not.

Of course they are to be applauded for their courage we already said that , but that does not mean we can't point out technical deficiencies.
Besides , it is not a criticism of them personally , but the way in which they were taught.


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## Jake104 (Nov 27, 2012)

Jeff ,I think what you are saying is don't knock them for trying and putting themselves out there? I agree , but at the same time you can't just settle or pass off mediocre MA as good Kung Fu just because of the " no one is perfect" argument. We all should be striving for perfection. Otherwise what is the purpose? A high level of perfection can be achieved. Anderson Silva comes to mind or maybe Jon Jones?or maybe the countless masters who don't put up videos on YouTube because they have nothing to prove.


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Dec 6, 2012)

I think ya'll mis-understood what I was getting at.

This isn't mediocre MA. This was the best at their level. That is the best you will see. 

They are getting in there and throwing it all down. And not everyone is the same in their techniques, and skill level.

I wasn't getting on ya'lls case for saying they have room for improvement. I was getting a little not happy at the fact that ya'll implied (and in a couple cases) said it was mediocre.

I see too many WT/WC people who are too afraid to put on the gloves period, and in my opinion that makes them worthless. If you don't spar, you will NEVER EVER be able to understand martial art. I don't care whether with gloves or not, but you have to put yourself in there.

I've travelled around the US and met at least one practitioner from each branch of USA WT/WC and every single one of them didn't put on the gloves, including my old Sifu (Leung Ting WT sifu who will remain nameless).

Back in the day, we used to put on gloves all the time, now all I see is a bunch of glorified Tai Chi, which is fine for health and wellness, but I hear so much of how WT/WC is the best when most of us can't stand in the ring and defend ourselves for 2 minutes. It's starting to get a little rediculous.

We need more practical application in our teaching curriculums people. Don't let your to-dai fall by the wayside and don't let them get caught in the trap of repetitiously practicing "glorified combat" (sparring routines).

Anyways, I hope ya'll found my little speech illuminating into why I was a little peeved, and in no way trying to slam ya'll.
I just want WT to flourish and become the best that it can be, without taking real martial arts out of it.


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