# Hapki Yu Kwon Sool- The Martial Art of Choi Young Sul



## Jinmukwan (Aug 18, 2019)

I wanted to make a post about the traditional Hapki Yu Kwon Sool of Founder Choi Young Sul!  

Much false information has been posted about hapkido/ Hapki Yu Kwon Sool over the years!  

I wanted to ask what is your connection to Founder Choi and what is your opinion how is it different from less traditional hapkido?


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 19, 2019)

A lot of information on Hapkido for sure.  Much of it I think a little incorrect and more truth stretching imho.

Not enough information on Hapki Yu Kwon Sool I guess, since I don't ever remember having heard of it.  Perhaps you could give some information on it and the difference between it and Hapkido?  

I personally would be most interested in differences between the two than attempts to show which might be more or less "correct" or "traditional."  After all, it is acknowledged to have come from Dai Ito Ryu and then had some Korean MA influences added.


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## Gweilo (Aug 19, 2019)

From what I was taught, Hapki Yun Kwon sool or sul,  was the name he gave his art, after he called it Yawara, to give the art a Korean sounding name, after a long winded name of Da Dong Ryu yu sool, which is Korean for Daito Ryu.


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## Gweilo (Aug 19, 2019)

Just got back from training, Suh, Bok Sup, Choi s 1st black belt had a knowledge do judo, and I was told was the beginnings of some techniques in Hapkido, and went on to open a school in Hapki kwon yu sool, which is Daito ryu with elements of judo.


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## skribs (Aug 19, 2019)

Jinmukwan said:


> Much false information has been posted about hapkido/ Hapki Yu Kwon Sool over the years!



What false claims are you referring to?  What claims have been made, and why are they false?


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## Gweilo (Aug 23, 2019)

I am wondering if he is talking about the many adaptations of Hapkido available today, like combat Hapkido,  or recently I have seen ads for Hapkido Karate, it's not the Hapkido I was taught, but I guess things move on, I am not a fan of these modern takes on the art, but I guess traditional don't pay the bills.


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## skribs (Aug 23, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I am wondering if he is talking about the many adaptations of Hapkido available today, like combat Hapkido,  or recently I have seen ads for Hapkido Karate, it's not the Hapkido I was taught, but I guess things move on, I am not a fan of these modern takes on the art, but I guess traditional don't pay the bills.



"Hapkido Karate".  Why not "Aikijutsu Karate" or "Hapkido Tang Soo Do"?


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## Gweilo (Aug 23, 2019)

Maybe for yourself, that's Ok,  but why trade off other names, Yes Ok arts evolve, but evolve the name.


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## skribs (Aug 23, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Maybe for yourself, that's Ok,  but why trade off other names, Yes Ok arts evolve, but evolve the name.



It makes more sense if they both come from the same place, at least to me.

Although with all that said, we kind of blend TKD and HKD at my school, even though they each have their separate classes.  Every once in a while, I'll get to mix them when I spar, and it works really well.


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## Gweilo (Aug 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> It makes more sense if they both come from the same place, at least to me.
> 
> Although with all that said, we kind of blend TKD and HKD at my school, even though they each have their separate classes.  Every once in a while, I'll get to mix them when I spar, and it works really well.



I think it's great, that you mix your arts, or add HKD techniques to your locker of TKD, but Hapkido Karate, the 2 philosophies are only similar in a small proportion,  the linear style of Karate with the circular style of Hapkido would only work with HKD hard elements, leaving the other 5/8 soft elements redundant IMO, but I am sure you could blend certain karate styles with elements of HKD, and if you are that creative, then surely it's not difficult to come up with a name, even Hapki te, or Karatido. The Hapkido story is contested enough.


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## skribs (Aug 24, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I think it's great, that you mix your arts, or add HKD techniques to your locker of TKD, but Hapkido Karate, the 2 philosophies are only similar in a small proportion,  the linear style of Karate with the circular style of Hapkido would only work with HKD hard elements, leaving the other 5/8 soft elements redundant IMO, but I am sure you could blend certain karate styles with elements of HKD, and if you are that creative, then surely it's not difficult to come up with a name, even Hapki te, or Karatido. The Hapkido story is contested enough.



Unless you use the circles to give you the best lines to attack.  Like the letter G.


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## Gweilo (Aug 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> Unless you use the circles to give you the best lines to attack.  Like the letter G.


Then Imo, it would be easier to use the hard techniques of hkd


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## skribs (Aug 24, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Then Imo, it would be easier to use the hard techniques of hkd



At my school, there are no hard parts of Hapkido, because we do that stuff in Taekwondo.  75% of our Hapkido students are black belts in TKD.  Half of us are somewhere in 2nd-4th degree range.


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## Gweilo (Aug 24, 2019)

So the hard strikes and kicks have been replaced with tkd elements, I can see that working because of the taek kyon elements, and some of the hand strikes, but are there some of the kicks you don't use, I have not trained tkd, do you use, what hkd calls shovel kicks, reverse low spinning kicks, crescent and arc kicks, hammer fist, ridge hand, crab claw.


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## skribs (Aug 24, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> So the hard strikes and kicks have been replaced with tkd elements, I can see that working because of the taek kyon elements, and some of the hand strikes, but are there some of the kicks you don't use, I have not trained tkd, do you use, what hkd calls shovel kicks, reverse low spinning kicks, crescent and arc kicks, hammer fist, ridge hand, crab claw.



No.  The hapkido class simply doesn't include them at all.


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## Gweilo (Aug 24, 2019)

So the Hapkido you was taught, did not include, a soft hard style,


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## adamr01 (Aug 24, 2019)

When I was studying Taekwondo, it was WTF style, but they offered a "Hapkido" class to advanced students. This consisted mostly of front rolls and falling techniques, and was looked at as an add-on to their main curriculum which was TKD. It wasn't until a friend of mine showed me what he was learning from this Hapkido Grandmaster named Chin Il Chang, that my world changed. I had never experienced joint locks before, and after my friend demonstrated on me all of the techniques he learned as a white belt, it became clear to me that real Hapkido was WAY bigger that what my TKD school was presenting as Hapkido. It wasn't long after that, that I quit TKD and started training Hapkido.


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## skribs (Aug 25, 2019)

adamr01 said:


> When I was studying Taekwondo, it was WTF style, but they offered a "Hapkido" class to advanced students. This consisted mostly of front rolls and falling techniques, and was looked at as an add-on to their main curriculum which was TKD. It wasn't until a friend of mine showed me what he was learning from this Hapkido Grandmaster named Chin Il Chang, that my world changed. I had never experienced joint locks before, and after my friend demonstrated on me all of the techniques he learned as a white belt, it became clear to me that real Hapkido was WAY bigger that what my TKD school was presenting as Hapkido. It wasn't long after that, that I quit TKD and started training Hapkido.



Our Taekwondo includes the rolls and falls.  The Hapkido is mostly wrist locks, takedowns, and submissions.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 30, 2019)

skribs said:


> Our Taekwondo includes the rolls and falls.  The Hapkido is mostly wrist locks, takedowns, and submissions.



A  teacher can decide what he wants to teach in any martial art he decides to teach.  I don't think it is bad to combine what is learned  in TKDk with knowledge of some aspects of Hapkido.  But there is more to Hapkido that wrist locks, takedowns, and submissions.  That said, some of those things may be taught at your school with your teacher combining them into those three aspects.


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## skribs (Aug 30, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> A  teacher can decide what he wants to teach in any martial art he decides to teach.  I don't think it is bad to combine what is learned  in TKDk with knowledge of some aspects of Hapkido.  But there is more to Hapkido that wrist locks, takedowns, and submissions.  That said, some of those things may be taught at your school with your teacher combining them into those three aspects.



So, I don't know if you've been part of threads where I talk about the size of my TKD school, but the HKD class is a much smaller population.  Our active members include (in order from highest to lowest rank in HKD)

1st dan in TKD
3rd dan in TKD (me)
2nd dan in TKD
3rd/4th dan in TKD (KKW/ATA)
1st dan in TKD
Green belt in TKD
3rd dan in TKD
Orange belt in TKD
So...we know how to strike.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 3, 2019)

skribs said:


> So, I don't know if you've been part of threads where I talk about the size of my TKD school, but the HKD class is a much smaller population.  Our active members include (in order from highest to lowest rank in HKD)
> 
> 1st dan in TKD
> 3rd dan in TKD (me)
> ...



Were you intending to answer another poster?  I never said anything about HKD not having strikes, and not about TKD not having strikes either.  I cannot imagine TKD without strikes and kicks.  The Hapkido I learned certainly had strikes and kicks as well.


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## Jinmukwan (Feb 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> It makes more sense if they both come from the same place, at least to me.
> 
> Although with all that said, we kind of blend TKD and HKD at my school, even though they each have their separate classes.  Every once in a while, I'll get to mix them when I spar, and it works really well.




What Choi Young Sul originally taught was Dae Dong Mu Hapki YuKwonSul.  It is my understanding that Choi did not have much to do with giving a name to what he taught!  This was done by Master Suh Bok Sub his first Korean student.   To say Suh combined Dae Dong Mu with Judo makes no sense as Choi defeated every Judo technique easily!  I wanted to bring up a point on GM Lim Hyun Soo and his sword method,  it was not taught to him by Choi.   He learned Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido from several Japanese masters !  Choi did however teach swordsmanship but only after 4th Dan and from my research only a few learned this from Choi.  Many masters claim Choi never taught any sword techniques!  I believe this to be false.


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## Gweilo (Feb 4, 2020)

Deleted


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## skribs (Feb 4, 2020)

Jinmukwan said:


> What Choi Young Sul originally taught was Dae Dong Mu Hapki YuKwonSul.  It is my understanding that Choi did not have much to do with giving a name to what he taught!  This was done by Master Suh Bok Sub his first Korean student.   To say Suh combined Dae Dong Mu with Judo makes no sense as Choi defeated every Judo technique easily!  I wanted to bring up a point on GM Lim Hyun Soo and his sword method,  it was not taught to him by Choi.   He learned Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido from several Japanese masters !  Choi did however teach swordsmanship but only after 4th Dan and from my research only a few learned this from Choi.  Many masters claim Choi never taught any sword techniques!  I believe this to be false.



I think you are having very specific conversations in very niche circles.


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## Gweilo (Feb 4, 2020)

I will reply, here is my problem with the claims made by the linage of Hapki yu kwon sool, on the claims this arts co founder and 1st student of Choi's make (not doubting the mans credentials, abilities or training methods, or even the art).
There are contradictions in the story as told by Suh bok sub and his linage, 1st it is claimed he talked Choi into renaming his art Yawara to HYKS, because it sounded too Japanese, and feelings towards the Japanese after the occupation could effect students from coming to study, so a Korean name would be better, so the name was changed, So why then did he talk Choi into using the Japanes Dan grading system, why not rename that, to me it does not make sense.
But I do agree with you, Choi probably did teach sword techniques, as hed would have learnt them in Daito Ryu.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 4, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> I will reply, here is my problem with the claims made by the linage of Hapki yu kwon sool, on the claims this arts co founder and 1st student of Choi's make (not doubting the mans credentials, abilities or training methods, or even the art).
> There are contradictions in the story as told by Suh bok sub and his linage, 1st it is claimed he talked Choi into renaming his art Yawara to HYKS, because it sounded too Japanese, and feelings towards the Japanese after the occupation could effect students from coming to study, so a Korean name would be better, so the name was changed, So why then did he talk Choi into using the Japanes Dan grading system, why not rename that, to me it does not make sense.
> But I do agree with you, Choi probably did teach sword techniques, as hed would have learnt them in Daito Ryu.



Using a Japanese grading system was probably acceptable as I guess other non-Japanese systems were using.  It must have been considered OK for whatever reason as TKD also used it.

I have no certain knowledge if Choi taught swordsmanship, but I also believe he must have.  In the Hapkido I learned, we were taught some skills in order to be able to better defend against the sword.  Many of the defenses were using the short stick, but there were a few that were unarmed defenses as well.


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