# Gin foon mark and officer Derek Chauvin



## Jook Sing (Jun 4, 2020)

Here is a photo of officer Derek Chauvin receiving martial arts training from master Gin Foon mark in 1995.  No doubt this is where officer Chauvin learned the dangerous technique that he used in the murder of George Floyd.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 4, 2020)

Jook Sing said:


> Here is a photo of officer Derek Chauvin receiving martial arts training from master Gin Foon mark in 1995.  No doubt this is where officer Chauvin learned the dangerous technique that he used in the murder of George Floyd.


No doubt?  Nonsense.  

What he did is/was common among police training.  I believe it is being or has been phased out in many places.


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## geezer (Jun 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> No doubt?  Nonsense.
> 
> What he did is/was common among police training.  I believe it is being or has been phased out in many places.





Jook Sing said:


> Here is a photo of officer Derek Chauvin receiving martial arts training from master Gin Foon mark in 1995.  No doubt this is where officer Chauvin learned the dangerous technique that he used in the murder of George Floyd.



That kid is former officer Cauvin? Where did that picture come from???

BTW I'm not an LEO or Security professional, but IMO too much attention is being paid to Chauvin pinning George Floyd's neck with his knee. _Not_ a great idea, but I can see how, when subduing somebody, you might _momentarily _pin them down with your knee until you can cuff them. Heck when I was growing up, my big brothers and his friends did far worse to me...

What they didn't do was crush my neck for 8 and-a-half minutes while I was begging for air and watch me go limp and die. That is just horrifyingly wrong.  

Any LEOs on here care to share some thoughts?


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## seasoned (Jun 5, 2020)

Jook Sing said:


> Here is a photo of officer Derek Chauvin receiving martial arts training from master Gin Foon mark in 1995.  No doubt this is where officer Chauvin learned the dangerous technique that he used in the murder of George Floyd.



As a suggestion so people on the site can get to know you a bit better, drop into our Meet & Greet section. Good way to break the ice.
*Meet & Greet*
New to MartialTalk? Stop in here and introduce yourself. Long time member? Pop in and say hello and meet the new members.


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## mograph (Jun 30, 2020)

Given that I (and at least Flying Crane) see no basis to the martial arts connection advanced in the first post, I submit that this thread has no useful purpose and should be deleted.


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## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> No doubt?  Nonsense.
> 
> What he did is/was common among police training.  I believe it is being or has been phased out in many places.


I would say it is common but not specifically common in police training. What is your evidence of such a statement?
It is wrong of you to put things like this out there to plant seeds and expect people to run with them.


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## dvcochran (Jun 30, 2020)

Jook Sing said:


> Here is a photo of officer Derek Chauvin receiving martial arts training from master Gin Foon mark in 1995.  No doubt this is where officer Chauvin learned the dangerous technique that he used in the murder of George Floyd.


First: That is photoshopped. 
Second: The person in the photo is young.
Third: That is photoshopped.
Fourth: That is photoshopped.


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## Saheim (Aug 15, 2020)

geezer said:


> Any LEOs on here care to share some thoughts?



Sure! I'm a cop...... not that that makes my opinion on a situation I wasn't involved in, between people I don't know, in a state I don't go to any more or less valid than anyone else who knows basically NOTHING about the situation other than what the media has selectively fed us through the idiot box.

First - I have never worked for or with ANY agency where it is remotely acceptable to kneel on a suspects neck especially for that length of time. No, that is not part of police tactics or training. Pin a shoulder down, with a knee? Absolutely! Knee to the neck or head? Only if it is a deadly force situation. 

Second - preliminary autopsy ruled out asphyxiation which makes sense for two reasons (1) George was saying "I can't breath, while officers were not even touching him, watch the REST of the video, ya know the part the media did NOT air (2) having been choked out, i can tell you - if you really can't breath..... you can not say "I can't breath" (kinda why we TAP). This does not mean he was getting BLOOD to his brain. Air choke vs blood choke, I'm assuming most on this site know the difference but he was NOT being air choked, pressure was to the side of his neck.

Third - George chose to be on the ground. In the (unaired) video he specifically said he would rather be on the ground than in the car. Quite frankly,  I would not have allowed him to make that decision. I would have PUT him in that car, even if he had to go in laterally.

Fourth - "murdered"? Well that will depend ENTIRELY on whether or not Derek's actions are determined to be the CAUSE OF DEATH. To assume they are is short sighted and the mark of a novice investigator. Many other factors involved and IF (important word) Derek's actions are determined to NOT be the cause of death, there is NO murder, there is NO manslaughter,  there is a policy violation AND a misdemeanor battery.

Fifth - if i was gonna choose a "victim" to get emotionally invested in, I'd pick a better one that George (home invader who points guns at pregnant women). Likewise,  if i was gonna pick a cop to defend, I'd pick a better one than Derek. Neither seem to be shining examples of great folks.


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## Steve (Aug 15, 2020)

Pretty good.  do derik chauvin next!   

good cops who turn a blind eye to the illegal behavior of bad cops are also bad cops.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 15, 2020)

The "proper" police training should be to control the arm/arms and not to control the head. In the worse case, you may break your opponent's arm, but you will never kill him.


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## dvcochran (Aug 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> Pretty good.  do derik chauvin next!
> 
> good cops who turn a blind eye to the illegal behavior of bad cops are also bad cops.


His points are all valid, no matter how unsavory they are in the public eye right now. 
FWIW, I have heard rumors from good sources that they are trying to go public with the COD without causing another surge of public outcry.


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## EdwardA (Aug 27, 2020)

The police of that city put out a news release stating, "this technique is a standard technique taught to many police officers.  It was developed to immobilize someone to keep them from hurting them self."  Since then, it has come out from the ME, Floyd was over dosing on fentanyl....whose victims tend to die of suffocation, like Michael Jackson did.  I know there are some that don't want to hear this, but I suggest waiting until the investigation is thru and all the videos come out.

Whether the officer did the technique correctly or not, is another issue.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 26, 2021)

EdwardA said:


> The police of that city put out a news release stating, "this technique is a standard technique taught to many police officers.  It was developed to immobilize someone to keep them from hurting them self."  Since then, it has come out from the ME, Floyd was over dosing on fentanyl....whose victims tend to die of suffocation, like Michael Jackson did.  I know there are some that don't want to hear this, but I suggest waiting until the investigation is thru and all the videos come out.
> 
> Whether the officer did the technique correctly or not, is another issue.


Regardless, criminal or not, high or not - George Floyd should have been brought in front of a judge, in a court of law, like they do with all the mass shooters. They get to go in front of a judge to be tried and sentenced. They don't get murdered in the streets before due process.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 29, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> Regardless, criminal or not, high or not - George Floyd should have been brought in front of a judge, in a court of law, like they do with all the mass shooters. They get to go in front of a judge to be tried and sentenced. They don't get murdered in the streets before due process.


Only those who do not honor their oath to the Constitution would disagree with my post. You may be a cop, in which case, you are an oath breaker. And that is a shameful thing to be. I swore an oath when I enlisted in the 70s. I didn't know what I was even doing back then, but I have full understanding of what it is to honor the only document that protects Americans from tyranny. If you do not honor your oath, you simply have no honor in your heart. You stand for tyranny.


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2021)

geezer said:


> That kid is former officer Cauvin? Where did that picture come from???
> 
> BTW I'm not an LEO or Security professional, but IMO too much attention is being paid to Chauvin pinning George Floyd's neck with his knee. _Not_ a great idea, but I can see how, when subduing somebody, you might _momentarily _pin them down with your knee until you can cuff them. Heck when I was growing up, my big brothers and his friends did far worse to me...
> 
> ...



It's complicated. You can positionaly asphixiate somone just via top pressure. People can die just from being on drugs and being in a sudden fight with stress and exertion.

But you shouldn't keep pressure on a guy who is handcuffed especially. Because you don't have to.

And you shouldn't do it via the neck. Unless you have a really good reason.

Otherwise there is a lot of constrictor style submissions that go nowhere near the neck. And can be done unintentionally.


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "proper" police training should be to control the arm/arms and not to control the head. In the worse case, you may break your opponent's arm, but you will never kill him.



Or even hold him down.


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2021)

mograph said:


> Given that I (and at least Flying Crane) see no basis to the martial arts connection advanced in the first post, I submit that this thread has no useful purpose and should be deleted.



It is useful to know if you are the sort of guy who might go clamping dudes and holding them for the cops. 

Which can be anyone.


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## mograph (Sep 16, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It is useful to know if you are the sort of guy who might go clamping dudes and holding them for the cops.
> 
> Which can be anyone.


Good point.


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## elder999 (Sep 16, 2021)

Gin Foon Mark lived and taught in Minneapolis (St. Paul?)

Derek Chauvin was a student of his.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 16, 2021)

Jook Sing said:


> Here is a photo of officer Derek Chauvin receiving martial arts training from master Gin Foon mark in 1995.  No doubt this is where officer Chauvin learned the dangerous technique that he used in the murder of George Floyd.


Kung Fu people don't know how to fight.  That's all I'm going to say lol

Edit:  In all seriousness.  I  haven't heard of any martial arts schools that teach stuff like that.


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2021)

I'd just like to add that placing your knee on someone's neck in BJJ is frowned upon and oftentimes outright banned because it's a dick move that can really hurt your partner.  That's on a mat. We're talking about someone facedown on *concrete*.

Further, once you have someone on their stomach with their hands cuffed behind their back, it's laughable that you need to control someone further by putting your knee on their neck. If that's "standard police training", the police need to be retrained.


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## wab25 (Sep 17, 2021)

First off, I am in no way defending Derek Chauvin. Once the hand cuffs are on, there was no need for the knee to be on his neck. However, I don't believe that the knee on the neck killed him, or had much part in killing Floyd.

The knee on the neck did not choke him by blocking his airway. As was pointed out, he could talk, saying that he could not breath... Its also impossible to to do a blood choke, with only the one knee. If you train BJJ or Judo or any art that teaches collar chokes... try applying a collar choke with only one collar, leave the other side of the neck alone. Sure, you cut off the blood from one side... but you will never choke a guy out, unless you have at least both sides of the neck.

In the art I study, we use that knee in the neck technique. It is not a choke. It can't be a choke. First, it only attacks one side of the neck, leaving the other side completely open. Just like doing only one side of a collar choke won't choke anyone out. Further, Floyd was facing away from Chauvin, meaning that the knee was on the rear side of the neck, not the front side of the neck. This is important, because to get at the arteries and veins for the blood choke, you need to be on the front side of the neck... where you check for a pulse, not on the back side of the neck. The knee in the neck can be dangerous. But the injury it causes would be a fractured vertebrae, not a choke out. If Floyd had his vertebrae fractured, he would not be saying "I can't breath" he would be screaming in agony.


This is what caused Floyd to die.








						Positional asphyxia - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





> *Positional asphyxia*, also known as *postural asphyxia*, is a form of asphyxia which occurs when someone's position prevents the person from breathing adequately. Positional asphyxia also may be a result of the policing technique known as "prone restraint", used by police, corrections, military, or health care staff.[1] People may die from positional asphyxia accidentally, when the mouth and nose are blocked, or where the chest may be unable to fully expand.





> A 1992 article in _The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology_[2] and a 2000 article in _The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology_ said that multiple cases have been associated with the hogtie or hobble prone restraint position.
> 
> The New York Police Department’s guidelines, explaining protocols for mitigating in-custody deaths, were published in a 1995 Department of Justice bulletin on "positional asphyxia."[3][4] The NYPD recommended that, “[a]s soon as the subject is handcuffed, get him off his stomach. Turn him on his side or place him in a seated position."[3][4] A 1996 FBI bulletin said that many law enforcement and health personnel were being taught to avoid restraining people face-down or to do so only for a very short period of time.[1]


Sound familiar? Floyd was kept face down for a long period of time.


> Prolonged (particularly resisted) restraint, obesity, prior cardiac or respiratory problems, and the use of illicit drugs such as cocaine can increase the risk of death by restraint, according to a 2001 article in _American Journal of Emergency Medicine_.[12]
> 
> Positional asphyxia is not limited to restraint in a face down position according to a 2011 article in _Medicine, Science, and the Law_. Restraining a person in a seated position may also reduce the ability to breathe, if the person is pushed forwards with the chest on or close to the knees. The risk will be higher in cases where the restrained person has a high body mass index (BMI) and/or large waist girth.[13][14]


Floyd was not just put face down, for a long period of time, with most of the above mentioned additional factors (over weight and drugs) he also had J. Alexander Kueng kneeling on his back for those 9 minutes. I believe J. Alexander Kueng had more of an effect on killing Floyd that Chauvin. J. Alexander Kueng was actually helping to prevent Floyd's chest from fully expanding.

Why is this important to understand? First, both *Chauvin and Kueng* should be held responsible. More importantly, the public is now calling for police to ban choke holds... something most police forces have already done. But, there is no out cry against holding people face down in a hogtie position. This is where we should be putting the attention.


> On May 25, 2020, according to a private autopsy contradicting the official autopsy, George Floyd died by asphyxia when Minneapolis Police officer Derek Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck and another officer, J. Alexander Kueng, knelt on his back for almost nine minutes as Floyd lay on his stomach on the pavement.[18][19][20]


Police departments are happy to publicly ban choke holds, but that does not change anything, as most had already banned them. We should be asking to change procedures about holding people on the ground, face down, with officers on top of them.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 17, 2021)

wab25 said:


> First off, I am in no way defending Derek Chauvin. Once the hand cuffs are on, there was no need for the knee to be on his neck. However, I don't believe that the knee on the neck killed him, or had much part in killing Floyd.
> 
> The knee on the neck did not choke him by blocking his airway. As was pointed out, he could talk, saying that he could not breath... Its also impossible to to do a blood choke, with only the one knee. If you train BJJ or Judo or any art that teaches collar chokes... try applying a collar choke with only one collar, leave the other side of the neck alone. Sure, you cut off the blood from one side... but you will never choke a guy out, unless you have at least both sides of the neck.
> 
> ...


What's interesting about this, is the hospital that I worked at required us to do a protection course-which was mostly BS (I have a write up of it somewhere here). But one thing they did address was positional asphyxiation, and went over something like 50 examples of people dying from it in hospitals and/or care facilities. So it's now banned (i believe, it's been a year so going off memory) to hold someone facedown in a hospital in new york. No similar rule was discussed for chokeholds (although that may just be nurses are much less likely to put someone in a chokehold than restrain improperly). 

That said, I haven't actually watched the chauvin floyd video as I've got no desire to spend 15 minutes watching someone die, so can't say anything about which one it likely is.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'd just like to add that placing your knee on someone's neck in BJJ is frowned upon and oftentimes outright banned because it's a dick move that can really hurt your partner.  That's on a mat. We're talking about someone facedown on *concrete*.
> 
> Further, once you have someone on their stomach with their hands cuffed behind their back, it's laughable that you need to control someone further by putting your knee on their neck. If that's "standard police training", the police need to be retrained.



Sometimes they headbutt the ground for no good reason and I do it. And I do it in training to get the T bag kimoura. 

But the last guy I arrested I had in kasegetami and he went unconscious.


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## Buka (Sep 17, 2021)

I've had that knee on neck applied to me from an advanced Judo guy. He was a friend, we were working on different things and it was on a hard cement floor covered with indoor/outdoor carpeting. 

I gotta tell ya, it was one of the most frightening things I've ever felt. It hurt bad, too. Nasty bad.


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## Hanzou (Sep 17, 2021)

wab25 said:


> First off, I am in no way defending Derek Chauvin. Once the hand cuffs are on, there was no need for the knee to be on his neck. However, I don't believe that the knee on the neck killed him, or had much part in killing Floyd.
> 
> The knee on the neck did not choke him by blocking his airway. As was pointed out, he could talk, saying that he could not breath... Its also impossible to to do a blood choke, with only the one knee. If you train BJJ or Judo or any art that teaches collar chokes... try applying a collar choke with only one collar, leave the other side of the neck alone. Sure, you cut off the blood from one side... but you will never choke a guy out, unless you have at least both sides of the neck.
> 
> ...



Actually it can become a choke because you're placing an extreme amount of weight on the neck, and the bony portion of your knee is penetrating force compressing the relative softness of the neck. That can cause a restriction of blood and air flow despite it being only on one side. You comparing it to one side of a collar choke is laughable. You can't apply nearly as much pressure with half a collar choke that you can from placing a knee and your weight on someone's neck. Yeah, it's not as efficient as a choke being applied to both sides of the neck (hence why he passed out in a matter of minutes instead of seconds), but it's still restricting air flow.

Add to that someone on their chest which restricts full inhalation, their hands behind their back which further restricts breathing, and heat and humidity, and it's relatively easy to see that it's a rather barbaric way to restrain someone.

I have no issue with cops applying chokes as long as they know wtf they're doing. Unfortunately from my experience they seemingly don't or they get an inordinate amount of satisfaction from dominating people. Frankly both can be true.


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## wab25 (Sep 20, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Actually it can become a choke because you're placing an extreme amount of weight on the neck


Actually, a brick can fly just like a plane, if you give it enough power. 

We know it was not restricting air flow, he could talk and he did talk. In order to get enough pressure through the neck, from that position, to close off blood flow, you would need to put an enormous amount of power through the neck, which, if you watch the video, Chauvin was not doing. Further, it would cause a lot of pain, so much so that Floyd would not have been able to say "I can't breath" he would have been screaming in agony, and likely there would have been a fractured vertebrae.

What did the police officers do that contributed the most to his death? They kept him face down way too long, much longer than necessary. That was the single biggest thing the police officers did to him, that contributed to his death. I hold all officers there accountable for that. The next largest contributor from the police, was officer Keung on his back, restricting Floyd's chest from being able to fully expand. 

The attention should be on the police use of the hogtie or hobble hold, or any other form of restraint, where the person is held face down. Once you get the cuffs on, the person should be immediately put into a  position where they can breath freely, and given medical attention. Keung should be held at least as responsible as Chauvin... as what Keung did, contributed much more to Floyd's death, than what Chauvin did.


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## dvcochran (Sep 20, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Actually, a brick can fly just like a plane, if you give it enough power.
> 
> We know it was not restricting air flow, he could talk and he did talk. In order to get enough pressure through the neck, from that position, to close off blood flow, you would need to put an enormous amount of power through the neck, which, if you watch the video, Chauvin was not doing. Further, it would cause a lot of pain, so much so that Floyd would not have been able to say "I can't breath" he would have been screaming in agony, and likely there would have been a fractured vertebrae.
> 
> ...


I fully agree with you until the last paragraph.

Floyd was a know felon with a history of violence so precautions were justified. Were they done correctly? No. I feel we all agree on this point.  
A hogtie is about as safe and humane as it can get in some cases. The person can move around and be rolled on their side. 
I have memories of more than a few times when I was the only officer subduing a violent person for extended periods. One of them broke the glass and window frame out of the back of my patrol car when I tried to move them with just hand cuffs behind their back. 

And to be fair, most people have bad connotations of a 'hogtie'. Cuff the hands, cuff the feet, short chain  between each and the person is still able to move around without harm to the officer or themselves.


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## Hanzou (Sep 20, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Actually, a brick can fly just like a plane, if you give it enough power.



No human has the power to make a brick fly at 500mph. However, humans are more than capable of placing their knee on someone's neck and restricting air and blood flow to the brain.



wab25 said:


> We know it was not restricting air flow, he could talk and he did talk. In order to get enough pressure through the neck, from that position, to close off blood flow, you would need to put an enormous amount of power through the neck, which, if you watch the video, Chauvin was not doing. Further, it would cause a lot of pain, so much so that Floyd would not have been able to say "I can't breath" he would have been screaming in agony, and likely there would have been a fractured vertebrae.



You're confusing complete restriction from partial restriction. Just because he could talk does not mean his air flow wasn't being restricted. His air flow was not completely cut off, but he was on his stomach with weight placed on his back and neck, thus the expansion of his lungs were reduced. That is a restriction of air flow. Hence why he passed out after 8 minutes instead of passing out in a couple of seconds which occurs during full restriction.

If I stand on your back with your chest on concrete, I'm sure you can still talk, but your air flow is still being constricted because your lungs are not being allowed to fully expand. If I place my knee on your neck its a similar situation. If I'm on your neck and your back, and you're chest down, you're going to eventually die.



wab25 said:


> What did the police officers do that contributed the most to his death? They kept him face down way too long, much longer than necessary. That was the single biggest thing the police officers did to him, that contributed to his death. I hold all officers there accountable for that. The next largest contributor from the police, was officer Keung on his back, restricting Floyd's chest from being able to fully expand.
> 
> The attention should be on the police use of the hogtie or hobble hold, or any other form of restraint, where the person is held face down. Once you get the cuffs on, the person should be immediately put into a  position where they can breath freely, and given medical attention. Keung should be held at least as responsible as Chauvin... as what Keung did, contributed much more to Floyd's death, than what Chauvin did.



If you look at the video, he isn't face down, his face is to the side facing the camera. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. If the knee wasn't on the neck (and other officers weren't on his back) he wouldn't have died when he did. The pressure from the knee to the neck along with the compression of his chest is what killed him.


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## wab25 (Sep 20, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> he was *on his stomach* with *weight placed on his back* and neck, thus *the expansion of his lungs were reduced*. That is a restriction of air flow. Hence why he passed out after 8 minutes instead of passing out in a couple of seconds which occurs during full restriction.





Hanzou said:


> If *I stand on your back with your chest on concrete*, I'm sure you can still talk, but your air flow is still being constricted because your lungs are not being allowed to fully expand.


This is what killed Floyd. This is what no one is talking about. We only want to talk about chokes. The officer with his weight on Floyd's back contributed the most to his death. In fact, I would venture to say that if everything were the same, except that Chauvin walked away, no knee on the neck, Floyd would still have died, from being held down by the officer on his back. Taking the knee off the neck, would not have saved Floyd. Taking the officer off his back, and putting him in a position where he could breath might have.



Hanzou said:


> If I place my knee on your neck its a similar situation.


Without the other guy on my back, I will talk to you all day. My lungs will work fine. I know, because I have been in that position many times before. Blood flow is not an issue, air flow is not an issue. Extreme pain in your vertebrae will be an issue long before air flow or blood flow will be an issue. 

It was the position Floyd was held in, combined with the weight of the officer on his back, that restricted his chest, that killed him.


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## john_newman (Sep 20, 2021)

That was savage..


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## dvcochran (Sep 20, 2021)

wab25 said:


> This is what killed Floyd. This is what no one is talking about. We only want to talk about chokes. The officer with his weight on Floyd's back contributed the most to his death. In fact, I would venture to say that if everything were the same, except that Chauvin walked away, no knee on the neck, Floyd would still have died, from being held down by the officer on his back. Taking the knee off the neck, would not have saved Floyd. Taking the officer off his back, and putting him in a position where he could breath might have.
> 
> 
> Without the other guy on my back, I will talk to you all day. My lungs will work fine. I know, because I have been in that position many times before. Blood flow is not an issue, air flow is not an issue. Extreme pain in your vertebrae will be an issue long before air flow or blood flow will be an issue.
> ...


Question: How do you think oxygen get to organs like the brain? Through BLOOD transference!!!

Take a person with apnea. That can go over a minute and not breath and do that dozens of times in the same night.

Floyd was overdosing on Fentanyl. He was already extremely compromised. This will be the primary COD.

Absolutely mistakes were made but you are wasting everyone’s time making an argument when you don’t know what you are talking about.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 20, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Floyd was overdosing on Fentanyl. He was already extremely compromised. This will be the primary COD.


I thought I recalled that the medical legal team (whatever that role is called) had determined he wasn't ODing on fentanyl. I looked into it and, apparently they said that the fentanyl in his body indicated that he most likely wasn't, and that he was not breathing the way he would have been if he was ODing (that does have a very clear way of breathing; like I said I haven't actually watched the video to judge that). They also stated that a healthy person would have died as well, so all that sums up to it was not the primary cause of death. 

Below is one of the articles I found on it. 
George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert


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## wab25 (Sep 20, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Question: How do you think oxygen get to organs like the brain? Through BLOOD transference!!!
> 
> Take a person with apnea. That can go over a minute and not breath and do that dozens of times in the same night.
> 
> ...


There are some questions about what drugs Floyd may or may not have been on at the time. I only went into the actions the police officers took. 

They put Floyd into a position known to cause positional asphyxia. They kept him in that position long after he was cuffed. Officer Keung stayed on his back, long after he was cuffed.

Lets go over the facts. Floyd was over weight, which makes him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. He had just tried resisting arrest, which makes him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. He may have been on drugs, which makes him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. He was put down on the ground in a position, which makes him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. Keung put his own body weight on top of Floyd, which further restricted his chest, making him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. Floyd was held like that for 9 minutes. 

But instead of talking about positional asphyxia, we have one side arguing that he was choked to death. This side gets upset when the autopsy says anything other than "he was choked to death." The other side says he was ODing on drugs, and this side won't accept any autopsy that says otherwise. And then we have an actual autopsy saying that he died of asphyxia. 

Floyd ticks every box that makes a person susceptible to positional asphyxia: over weight, large girth, resisting arrest, and possible drug use. The officers did everything known to cause positional asphyxia: put him face down, put another officer on top of him and held him in that position, restricting his chest for 9 minutes. The autopsy came back saying he died of asphyxia. But, lets ban police from choking people, again... lets continue to ignore positional asphyxia, and maybe it won't happen again to someone else.

I am now going to step out of this thread, before things get heated or political.


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## dvcochran (Sep 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I thought I recalled that the medical legal team (whatever that role is called) had determined he wasn't ODing on fentanyl. I looked into it and, apparently they said that the fentanyl in his body indicated that he most likely wasn't, and that he was not breathing the way he would have been if he was ODing (that does have a very clear way of breathing; like I said I haven't actually watched the video to judge that). They also stated that a healthy person would have died as well, so all that sums up to it was not the primary cause of death.
> 
> Below is one of the articles I found on it.
> George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert


I should have clarified my opinion. 
You are correct on the official COD as it stands right now. 
I expect this trial will blow things wide open. 
My opinion is that Floyd’s lifestyle, leading up to to the incident is the real COD.

Here is the catch 22 of referencing articles; there is almost always one that opines a persons own views.  









						EXPLAINER: 'Contributing' factors in Floyd death key to case
					

CHICAGO (AP) — Doctors charged with determining the cause of an individual's death try to learn all they can about the person's life, medical experts testified Friday at former Officer Derek Chauvin’s murder trial.




					apnews.com


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 20, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I should have clarified my opinion.
> You are correct on the official COD as it stands right now.
> I expect this trial will blow things wide open.
> My opinion is that Floyd’s lifestyle, leading up to to the incident is the real COD.
> ...


To clarify for myself, I referenced the first article that I found, that stated what the medical team had as a cause of death. But re-reading your initial post, I see the issue-it was my own reading. You had put "will be" indicating you believe the listed COD will change. That makes much more sense.

 I also don't see anything in that article that goes against the article I shared, it just elaborates on the explanation of why those other factors are included.


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2021)

I think the court will determine what killed George Floyd. I think it will be Derek Chauvin.

I stopped caring about either of them some time ago. Not worth my emotional investment.
​


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## Steve (Sep 20, 2021)

Buka said:


> I stopped caring about either of them some time ago. Not worth my emotional investment.
> ​


I actually thought this was a settled issue.  Hasn’t Chauvin been convicted and sentenced to like 20 years for 2nd degree murder?  Are you all discussing an appeal or something?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 20, 2021)

Buka said:


> I stopped caring about either of them some time ago. Not worth my emotional investment.


I still care about it because I know that could be me in a situation like that.  Not the resisting part but the being arrested part.  People make assumptions about others and I'm not free from such assumptions.  Situations like that can turn bad in a blink of an eye, all it takes is a bad cop who thinks I'm the worse. 

I swear the only thing that helps me keep my calm is that I'm broke.  So whatever happens better legit because my lawyer will. lol.


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## Buka (Sep 21, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I still care about it because I know that could be me in a situation like that.  Not the resisting part but the being arrested part.  People make assumptions about others and I'm not free from such assumptions.  Situations like that can turn bad in a blink of an eye, all it takes is a bad cop who thinks I'm the worse.
> 
> I swear the only thing that helps me keep my calm is that I'm broke.  So whatever happens better legit because my lawyer will. lol.


I don't blame you for caring about it, not one little bit.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2021)

wab25 said:


> As was pointed out, he could talk, saying that he could not breath


There's a common misconception that if someone can talk, that means they can breathe, therefore they're not being choked/in danger. Being able to talk means their airway isn't completely blocked, so they won't be passing out and dying in a very short time frame. However it is still possible that their airway may be restricted enough that they aren't getting enough oxygen to maintain consciousness and life indefinitely. In such a case, you would expect unconsciousness and death to take a while, as is also typical for 


wab25 said:


> Its also impossible to to do a blood choke, with only the one knee. If you train BJJ or Judo or any art that teaches collar chokes... try applying a collar choke with only one collar, leave the other side of the neck alone. Sure, you cut off the blood from one side... but you will never choke a guy out, unless you have at least both sides of the neck.


I believe Floyd was on his side during at least part of the process. If you kneel on the neck of someone who is on their side, then their own shoulder on the opposite side can apply pressure to the artery on the other side.

In any case, we know that Floyd was not subjected to a complete technically correct blood choke as we would use in judo or jujutsu get a tap, because if so he would have passed out in seconds. However it's entirely possible that blood flow was restricted significantly, which would have reduced the oxygen reaching his brain, which would have already been reduced by both the restricted airflow and the pressure on his chest.


wab25 said:


> I believe J. Alexander Kueng had more of an effect on killing Floyd that Chauvin. J. Alexander Kueng was actually helping to prevent Floyd's chest from fully expanding.





wab25 said:


> In fact, I would venture to say that if everything were the same, except that Chauvin walked away, no knee on the neck, Floyd would still have died, from being held down by the officer on his back. Taking the knee off the neck, would not have saved Floyd. Taking the officer off his back, and putting him in a position where he could breath might have.


This is entirely possible. The officer on Floyd's back restricted his ability to inhale and keep air in his lungs. The officer on his neck restricted air and blood flow. Maybe it took both of them to murder him. Maybe one or the other might have done the job alone. It's not exactly the sort of thing we want to do controlled experiments on. I do agree with your conclusion that there needs to be better education and policies in place to reduce incidents of positional asphyxiation.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> You are correct on the official COD as it stands right now.
> I expect this trial will blow things wide open.
> My opinion is that Floyd’s lifestyle, leading up to to the incident is the real COD.


What trial are you referring to? Derek Chauvin has already been convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to 22 years in prison. The testimony of the doctors who actually conducted the autopsies (there were two of them), was that George Floyd died of asphyxiation and not from a drug overdose. Do you have some medical knowledge that they lack?

I will concede that it's possible Floyd might have survived his treatment if he had been a specimen of perfect health and fitness with no pre-existing health conditions. That's probably the case for a number of murder victims. Given that a large percentage of my friends and family are not specimens of perfect health and fitness with no pre-existing conditions (and neither am I for that matter), I don't think I'd care to have their lifestyle considered the culprit if one of them were murdered.


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## dvcochran (Sep 21, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What trial are you referring to? Derek Chauvin has already been convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to 22 years in prison. The testimony of the doctors who actually conducted the autopsies (there were two of them), was that George Floyd died of asphyxiation and not from a drug overdose. Do you have some medical knowledge that they lack?
> 
> I will concede that it's possible Floyd might have survived his treatment if he had been a specimen of perfect health and fitness with no pre-existing health conditions. That's probably the case for a number of murder victims. Given that a large percentage of my friends and family are not specimens of perfect health and fitness with no pre-existing conditions (and neither am I for that matter), I don't think I'd care to have their lifestyle considered the culprit if one of them were murdered.


We are well into the “beating a dead horse” phase and you seem to be late to the conversation. 
Review my previous posts.


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## drop bear (Sep 23, 2021)

Here is a similar case. 








						'I can't breathe': footage shows David Dungay's death in custody – video
					

WARNING: this footage may distress some readers.The inquest into the death of David Dungay has been shown harrowing video footage of his final moments in which he yells ‘I can’t breathe’




					www.theguardian.com
				




Obviously viewer discretion on the video.

But I don't think they were anywhere near the neck here.


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## Steve (Sep 23, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What trial are you referring to? Derek Chauvin has already been convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to 22 years in prison. The testimony of the doctors who actually conducted the autopsies (there were two of them), was that George Floyd died of asphyxiation and not from a drug overdose. Do you have some medical knowledge that they lack?


Only thing I can think of is maybe the trial for the other three ex-officers.  Latest I can see is that they are scheduled to stand trial in March, 2022.  Trial for 3 ex-cops charged in Floyd’s death pushed to March

I haven't found anything about alternative causes of death.  



Tony Dismukes said:


> I will concede that it's possible Floyd might have survived his treatment if he had been a specimen of perfect health and fitness with no pre-existing health conditions. That's probably the case for a number of murder victims. Given that a large percentage of my friends and family are not specimens of perfect health and fitness with no pre-existing conditions (and neither am I for that matter), I don't think I'd care to have their lifestyle considered the culprit if one of them were murdered.


100%.  When I read this, I was reminded of a news story I heard recently... I'm trying to recall the details.  I'll post a link if I can find one... but the gist is a guy was threatened and because he had cardiovascular disease due to type 2 diabetes, he had a heart attack and died.  The point is that it was a situation where the person was not in great health, and like most people with type 2 diabetes, this was probably related to (if not due entirely to) his lifestyle.  But he would not have died without the intervention of the other person who basically scared him to death.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 24, 2021)

Steve said:


> 100%.  When I read this, I was reminded of a news story I heard recently... I'm trying to recall the details.  I'll post a link if I can find one... but the gist is a guy was threatened and because he had cardiovascular disease due to type 2 diabetes, he had a heart attack and died.  The point is that it was a situation where the person was not in great health, and like most people with type 2 diabetes, this was probably related to (if not due entirely to) his lifestyle.  But he would not have died without the intervention of the other person who basically scared him to death.


wow, that's kinda crazy.


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## geezer (Sep 26, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> We are well into the “beating a dead horse” phase and you seem to be late to the conversation.
> Review my previous posts.


I came back to this thread just recently, so I am also "late to the conversation" ... but I think it's apparent that Tony_ did_ pay attention to your comments, and accurately quoted them. In post #32 you posited a fentanyl overdose as "the COD" and then clarified your point in opining in post #35 that George Floyd's "lifestyle was the real COD".

On one hand, there may be some truth to what you say, on the other hand, it may seem to others like you are _laying the blame the victim_. Apparently the prosecution and jury did not agree.

Observing this exchange between you and Tony, it seems that it boils down to two respectable and informed individuals arriving at very different opinions coming from the same facts. Still, this is hardly a case of "beating a dead horse". Admittedly, the news cycle quickly moves on and people have short memories, but regardless, I'll wager that just like the Rodney King case back in '92, the fall out from _this_ incident will have long lasting influence on policing in America.

Is that what you meant when you said that "this trial will blow things wide open"?


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## dvcochran (Sep 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> I came back to this thread just recently, so I am also "late to the conversation" ... but I think it's apparent that Tony_ did_ pay attention to your comments, and accurately quoted them. In post #32 you posited a fentanyl overdose as "the COD" and then clarified your point in opining in post #35 that George Floyd's "lifestyle was the real COD".
> 
> On one hand, there may be some truth to what you say, on the other hand, it may seem to others like you are _laying the blame the victim_. Apparently the prosecution and jury did not agree.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your candor and have much respect you and Tony. It is refreshing to have reasonable discussion with high minded people; something that has been lacking on the forum of late. 

The main point I was trying to make was that All of the blame was not on the police. That the incident was and is being used out of context in multiple ways. 

Will Floyd will be a component for reform? In some form, yes. But do you not feel it is foolish to think any one incident is an indication of widespread issues in LE across the whole country?  Do you not agree there is or can be a 'bad egg' in some form or fashion within most any type of organization? Yes, the fleshing out was hard to watch. Do you consider this normal? I strongly feel the greater driver for change in procedure will be the ease to capture things on camera. And this is a 2 way street now with most officers having a body cam. 

Not trying to get off subject but to support my point; I recently watch a video that has been sensationalized where 3 officers were trying cuff a person who was resisting arrest. A dog was used to subdue and get the guy safely cuffed and in the patrol car. 
This could have been done multiple ways. Given that there were three officers they could have simply overpowered the guy. Police brutality, right? They could have tasered him (which they may have already done). Police brutality, right? They could have called in more backup, taking away from needed resources elsewhere. They could have drawn out the encounter (like with Floyd) and who knows what would have happened.
The person(s) videoing the incident were immediately saying the person was being mistreated, all the time he was resisting. The canine officer safely released the dog (restrained) which nipped at the ankle and then attached onto the persons pants leg or shoe (I forget which). To read the article you would think he had been mauled. In the end the person was cuffed and in the patrol car with no incident sans a bite wound, IMHO. Since the video is going viral, all bets are off. 
FWIW, we have a good sized cattle operation and use dogs for herding regularly so I am may be more conditioned to this type of action than the average person. But I digress.

My main point is the imbalance of power in how video is used by the media and it overt bias. The 'powers that be' can take any video and literally make it a weapon or at the least a very powerful tool. So when there is nothing to moderate or give something understandable context (I am 100% 1st amendment) it can be very dangerous. What happened to neutral reporting? It is getting hard to find where 'neutral' is these days.

My COD comment and the lifestyle comments were obviously poorly expressed on my part and Tony's comments about his family members was far from the point I was trying to make. I hope this is understood on some level.

I am sure you know there are other legal actions going on regarding this case. It is not clear where these will go given the social climate on law enforcement but I feel the legal system still works and that there will be truths uncovered.

My "beating a dead horse" comment is just a southern term to say a topic has already been well covered, in this thread and others. 

Having graduated high school in '81 I clearly remember the King case in '92. It was just a few years before I went into LEO work. It is understandable that perspective is very different from what is was near 30 years ago. When you work in a job with such high stakes (such as LEO's) the 'bad eggs' carry great ramification, clearly. Sensationalizing them does not help.

My work involves control, automation, & process, primarily in the industrial and WTP/WWTP environments. I could site more deaths in this environment than I care to remember and have been personally involved in 3 such deaths. You will never hear about these in the mainstream media but I can tell you with certainty that the number of deaths is exponentially higher than incidents like Floyd's. Right or wrong? I will leave that for you to decide.


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