# Bill Wallace Fighting Style in WTF TKD Tournaments



## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 5, 2011)

I am curious if any of the tournament fighters have comments about Bill Wallace's side stance fighting style in regards to WTF TKD tournament fighting.  TKD seems to teach a more open stance than Mr. Wallace's side stance.

For instance Mr. Wallace loves the hook kick, and has it coming straight across, parallel to the floor.  From what I've seen in tournament fighting the "hook" kick used in TKD starts from a semi-open stance, so the kick comes down on the face at about 45 degrees, rather than straight across. (In my class, we call this 45 degree downward "hook" kick a whip kick).  I can see 45 degree downward angle giving more power since you have the weight of the foot helping somewhat.

My guess is Mr. Wallace's side stance is more defensive when punches to the head are allowed. I've seen him say in videos that he will lean his head away from an opponent and use the leading shoulder to block punches.  Since WTF TKD does not allow punches to the head, fighters open the stance even at close range while doing high kicks.  That's my guess anyway why TKD fighters don't fight as closed as Mr. Wallace.

Appreciate your thoughts - thanks!


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 5, 2011)

I dont know if this answers your question but I train with a guy who has just started doing muay thai on the side. In tkd he uses the very typical WTF style stance (our instructors let us find a stance that suits our 'style', and for him that works, I personally use a more open stance). He was telling me the other night that he had the absolute crap kicked out of his legs at muay thai because of his tkd stance, so he has had to adjust a lot to protect from leg kicks particularly to his upper thigh apparantly. Another guy I train with does a form of  karate where they have a form of sparring where anything goes and he too said his legs copped a battering, so I can only conclude that perhaps if leg kicks are legal the typical tkd stance can cause problems, but Im only basing this on information told to me and not personal experience.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 6, 2011)

FWIW not being a WTF guy, you won't see many lead leg kicks used in WTF comps. I don't think the WTF judges will score them. (Unless of course you knock the guy out. 

Wallace does 2 more interesting things. He points the toe - ankle at 90 degrees for theroundhouse kick and makes contact with the toe of the boot. Most make contact with the top of the foot. This allows the foot to goe around the guard if your hands are up. 

He also brings his leg more forward and makes contact with more of the bottom of the foot  (as oppose to the back of the heel) so his knee is more bent for the hook kick. Again, this allows the foot to go around the guard .


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## ATC (Feb 6, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I am curious if any of the tournament fighters have comments about Bill Wallace's side stance fighting style in regards to WTF TKD tournament fighting. TKD seems to teach a more open stance than Mr. Wallace's side stance.
> 
> For instance Mr. Wallace loves the hook kick, and has it coming straight across, parallel to the floor. From what I've seen in tournament fighting the "hook" kick used in TKD starts from a semi-open stance, so the kick comes down on the face at about 45 degrees, rather than straight across. (In my class, we call this 45 degree downward "hook" kick a whip kick). I can see 45 degree downward angle giving more power since you have the weight of the foot helping somewhat.
> 
> ...


We teach to stay sideways. It hides the back leg and foot a bit and shrinks the target areas.

The kick you are talking about in WTF TKD is not a hook kick at all but more of an arching axe kick, it is not a hook at all. The reason for the 45 degree angle is because you need to come up over (or around) the guard or shoulder then down and through the head. If the opponent moves back you can still push or drop the kick. Pushing the kick will allow you to reach the head moving back and dropping the kick will land on the chest.

You also start the kick with a bent knee to help get past or over the guard.

The hook kick is not used as it will most always fall short and a simple lean back is all that is needed. Not to mention that an underneath bada kick is a simple counter to it as well.


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## puunui (Feb 6, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> In tkd he uses the very typical WTF style stance




What to you is a very typical WTF style stance?


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## puunui (Feb 6, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW not being a WTF guy, you won't see many lead leg kicks used in WTF comps. I don't think the WTF judges will score them. (Unless of course you knock the guy out. .




Front leg scores quite a bit in WTF competition. There was a time when it didn't though.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> What to you is a very typical WTF style stance?


Very side on. Olympic tkd style I would call the a typical WTF style stance.


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## puunui (Feb 6, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> From what I've seen in tournament fighting the "hook" kick used in TKD starts from a semi-open stance, so the kick comes down on the face at about 45 degrees, rather than straight across. (In my class, we call this 45 degree downward "hook" kick a whip kick).




In the 1987 WTF Video "The Art of Taekwondo Competition", which was cutting edge at the time, they called an ax kick a "hook kick", and a hook kick a "whip kick". Korean terms tend to describe the action or motion of the movement, hence you "hook" down on an ax kick and "whip" a spin hook kick.


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## puunui (Feb 6, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> He was telling me the other night that he had the absolute crap kicked out of his legs at muay thai because of his tkd stance, so he has had to adjust a lot to protect from leg kicks particularly to his upper thigh apparantly. Another guy I train with does a form of  karate where they have a form of sparring where anything goes and he too said his legs copped a battering, so I can only conclude that perhaps if leg kicks are legal the typical tkd stance can cause problems, but Im only basing this on information told to me and not personal experience.




I don't think it has anything to do with stance, but rather it has everything to do with the fact that they aren't used to it. People think they can shake off leg kicks, or may otherwise discount it, but that just tells me they have never really been kicked in the leg by someone who was into it.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with stance, but rather it has everything to do with the fact that they aren't used to it. People think they can shake off leg kicks, or may otherwise discount it, but that just tells me they have never really been kicked in the leg by someone who was into it.


All I know is the first thing they adjusted at muay thai was his stance and it solved the problems. I dont know the technical side behind it because I wasnt there but Im sure there is a reason that kickboxers dont use a tkd stance.


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> All I know is the first thing they adjusted at muay thai was his stance and it solved the problems. I dont know the technical side behind it because I wasnt there but Im sure there is a reason that kickboxers dont use a tkd stance.




Muay Thai has more weight on the back leg rather than the front, so I think that is what your friend is switching to. But still Muay Thai fighters kick each other in the leg all the time so I don't think it would completely solve the problem. Experiment with it and see what you come up with. 

Another thing that you can do against a leg kicker is to go open stance on them. That way they don't get the clear shot to your front leg with their rear leg. The leg kicker can still try to kick the inside of your front leg, but then you can defend that by lifting up your knee and blocking with your knee.


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## dancingalone (Feb 7, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont know the technical side behind it because I wasnt there but Im sure there is a reason that kickboxers dont use a tkd stance.



I don't know anything about the whole WTF stance discussion, but kickboxers don't employ an extreme side stance because they want to keep all 4 striking limbs for ready deployment.  A more frontal stance is needed for that.


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## ATC (Feb 7, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I don't know anything about the whole WTF stance discussion, but kickboxers don't employ an extreme side stance because they want to keep all 4 striking limbs for ready deployment. A more frontal stance is needed for that.


What Dancingalone states is it in a nutshell. You need to be squared up for your hands. That is it. No need to worry about hands in Olympic sparring as you can't use them to the face at all. Has nothing to do with getting kicked in the leg. You either build up a tolerance for getting kicked in leg or you don't. You will be kicked in the legs regardless what stance you take.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 7, 2011)

ATC said:


> ....The hook kick is not used as it will most always fall short and a simple lean back is all that is needed. Not to mention that an underneath bada kick is a simple counter to it as well.



Do you mean back kick rather than bada kick? Thanks.


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## Gorilla (Feb 7, 2011)

Many of the Lead Leg Techs that Bill Wallace did have become very effective in WTF Style TKD.  The ability to get the foot on the head because of the inconsistent scoring of EBP's has changed the game.  Many of the Old assumptions do not apply!


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## jthomas1600 (Feb 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> *Another thing that you can do against a leg kicker is to go open stance on them. That way they don't get the clear shot to your front leg with their rear leg. The leg kicker can still try to kick the inside of your front leg, but then you can defend that by lifting up your knee and blocking with your knee*.


 
This may be a good strategy for all the reasons you mentioned, but it also opens you up to an inadvertent groin shot. Even with all the protective gear that can be a hard to recover from sometimes.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> Muay Thai has more weight on the back leg rather than the front, so I think that is what your friend is switching to. But still Muay Thai fighters kick each other in the leg all the time so I don't think it would completely solve the problem. Experiment with it and see what you come up with.
> 
> Another thing that you can do against a leg kicker is to go open stance on them. That way they don't get the clear shot to your front leg with their rear leg. The leg kicker can still try to kick the inside of your front leg, but then you can defend that by lifting up your knee and blocking with your knee.


Thats exactly what they told him to do, go an "open stance", so they did not have as clear a shot on his front leg.


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## ATC (Feb 7, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Do you mean back kick rather than bada kick? Thanks.


No I do mean bada or pada. However a back kick depending on what side the hook is used will work also.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 8, 2011)

Bill Wallaces stance I believe has much more to do with a rather sever knee injury he got when he trained Judo than anything else

From here



> began studying karate in February 1967 after suffering a right leg injury in a judo accident. The injury left him without the use of the leg in karate competition. Some observers said Wallace was committing martial arts suicide. Wallace, however, had other ideas.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 9, 2011)

ATC said:


> No I do mean bada or pada. However a back kick depending on what side the hook is used will work also.


What's a bada/pada kick?  Thanks.


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## ATC (Feb 9, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> What's a bada/pada kick? Thanks.


Simple switch off counter round kick or a slide off counter round kick. To slide off would really be called a Hujin. The Hujin would be used if the attacking kicker is kicking really deep. The bada is used when the attacker is kicking short and you don't need to move off as far to counter. 

This is a bada because he does not slide but switches off as he is kicking.
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In the case of a true hook kick, the leg comes across not forward and down so you can move from it rather easy and a simple bada at the same time would score quite easy. The 45 degree downward axe kick makes the bada harder to do as the kick is coming down and forward and can land on the head or the chest stopping the bada kick. The bada can still be use but you have to time it just right and lean off and extend out while doing it. You may also have to switch off on a slight angle as well, instead of straight back.

The bada kick is one of the most use counter kicks in the WTF style.


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## puunui (Feb 9, 2011)

Padduh Chagi is translated into "receiving kick", where you kick at the same time you are receiving a kick from your opponent. The most common padduh chagi is an in place roundhouse kick with your back leg, where you switch stance and throw a roundhouse kick at the same time while avoiding or blocking your opponent's kick. But it doesn't have to be that particular kick.


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## golfermatt (Mar 22, 2011)

I was reading some threads on sparring and found this. Wasn't Wallace's extreme side stance completely typical of all of the point fighters of his era(Norris,Lewis,..)? Smallest target possible for a straight on attack as a single strike was all it took to score. In a WTF style event it seems that without extremely manipulating shoulders and hips the standard round kick would become slow and telegraphed,also if thrown too quickly it would lack power. Further, they setup this way to use the sidekick also, right? Leg kicks are not permitted in WTF events are they? Lastly, when I watch some old Wallace kickboxing matches, he used a normal boxers stance, I have only seen him use the side stance in point fights.


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## puunui (Mar 22, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Do you mean back kick rather than bada kick? Thanks.




No, I believe he meant bada kick, which we call under kick. You kick under your opponent's leg, especially if they have that high chamber like Bill Wallace does.


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 22, 2011)

As Xue mentioned, Bill's stance and adaption of his kicks were based off protecting his injured knee and the fact that his right leg was only strong enough to use as his base leg (though he did throw a rare right leg kick like the back kick he landed on Bob Biggs in his retirement fight). He also had problems even pivoting on that leg IIRC, so he made the most of what he had to work with. I've been cross training in kickboxing and Muay Thai for over 30 years now and the stance makes a huge difference in your ability to take or go with leg kicks, especially thrown by a high level MT fighter. Neither a typical TKD stance or Bill's side work well when leg kicks are a factor in the rules.

A bada kick would not be a very good counter to the hook kicks thrown from Wallace's style of chamber by anyone on the same level of ability (of course, if you are a far superior fighter over your opponent, you can make almost anything work). Bill used his knee and shin as a shield as he kicked and was also very skilled at using a downward check using the heel to stop anything trying to sneak in from a low line. The buffer zone provided from the chamber combined with the fact that his side, hook and round kicks were all thrown from the same chamber and could be used to a low, mid or high line without telegraphing really made it very hard to deal with or counter. Don't judge it's effectiveness by those who copy him without really understanding the nuts and bolts of his methods.

As a teenager, I broke my left hip and it took years of PT and training for me to really be able to kick at all w/ my left leg and several more to kick well. So I spent about 7-8 years using his methods because that is what suited me when I had that limitation. Both in sparring and in competition, I had 12 KO's off of his style of hook kick. I would shoot some side kicks and then when they read side, I'd nail them with the hook, often as the payoff on a combo. When I was stable enough to take leg kicks in my training, the side stance left the sciatic too open and I started fighting out of a more typical MT stance, but just adapted Wallace's methods and chamber as I bridged the gap. Don Wilson used a similar approach by using Bill's methods on his lead leg attacks and more of Benny's (Urquidez) for his back leg and hand techniques. Bill's stuff worked great under full-contact/national rules while Wilson's did great under the International rule set (popular in WKA and ISKA).

 Now that I fight and train with takedowns and throws, I've had ti adapt and evolve my stances even further. Certain techniques and stances work well within a very limited rule set, such as WTF TKD comps. The more the rule set allows both offensively and defensively, you must adjust your game. Regardless of what sport set you fight under though, IMO it's at least wise to do at least part of your training with no restrictions in mind since that is what the reality of self defense includes.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 23, 2011)

Great post Kwan Jang!


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> As a teenager, I broke my left hip and it took years of PT and training for me to really be able to kick at all w/ my left leg and several more to kick well. So I spent about 7-8 years using his methods because that is what suited me when I had that limitation. Both in sparring and in competition, I had 12 KO's off of his style of hook kick. I would shoot some side kicks and then when they read side, I'd nail them with the hook, often as the payoff on a combo. When I was stable enough to take leg kicks in my training, the side stance left the sciatic too open and I started fighting out of a more typical MT stance, but just adapted Wallace's methods and chamber as I bridged the gap. Don Wilson used a similar approach by using Bill's methods on his lead leg attacks and more of Benny's (Urquidez) for his back leg and hand techniques. Bill's stuff worked great under full-contact/national rules while Wilson's did great under the International rule set (popular in WKA and ISKA).



Did you ever try to do that bill wallace style at a WTF style competition, especially higher level stuff like nationals? That style used to be very prevalent back in the day but now you never see it anymore. I think the last person to use that kind of style was Arlene Limas, and I think that her success with it was based not so much on the particular technique as it was her high level of experience and timing. She had more competition match wins under her belt of any competitor whenever she entered a USTU national or WTF international event.


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 23, 2011)

Actually, I used it at the Nationals twice and won the first Junior Olympics with it in '81. Obviously WTF TKD comp has evolved away from this (for better or worse) and this was better suited for the fighting sets I described above. Even for Bill (or me at the time), it was about making the most of what we had to use due to our injuries.


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## Gorilla (Mar 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> Did you ever try to do that bill wallace style at a WTF style competition, especially higher level stuff like nationals? That style used to be very prevalent back in the day but now you never see it anymore. I think the last person to use that kind of style was Arlene Limas, and I think that her success with it was based not so much on the particular technique as it was her high level of experience and timing. She had more competition match wins under her belt of any competitor whenever she entered a USTU national or WTF international event.



You are seeing the Arlene Limas style of fighting being used much more in Europe.  Last year at the Spanish Open it was prevalent among the younger(12 to 17) European Fighters.  They are definitely teach this style of fighting!  My kids have been training with Arlene over the last 9 months and she coached them at the US Open. I watched them work on her techniques last night.  She is an incredible teacher and a wonderful person. It has been a very good transition for my kids as they were more rear leg fighters in the past.  TKD is evolving and some of the OLD School is coming back.


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## msmitht (Mar 24, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW not being a WTF guy, you won't see many lead leg kicks used in WTF comps. I don't think the WTF judges will score them. (Unless of course you knock the guy out.
> 
> Wallace does 2 more interesting things. He points the toe - ankle at 90 degrees for theroundhouse kick and makes contact with the toe of the boot. Most make contact with the top of the foot. This allows the foot to goe around the guard if your hands are up.
> 
> He also brings his leg more forward and makes contact with more of the bottom of the foot  (as oppose to the back of the heel) so his knee is more bent for the hook kick. Again, this allows the foot to go around the guard .



Oh realy? What about lead leg axe? Cut kick? Lopez won a worl gold with that one. I saw a guy ko another with a ll hook to the head whil the guy was spinning in. 
It all depends on timing and how you set up your points. I don't see a ll round scoring to the body though. And wallace's style would have to adapt to make it to the international circut. More rear leg kicks and spin kicks(although I saw him land a back kick once).


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> Actually, I used it at the Nationals twice and won the first Junior Olympics with it in '81.




I looked up the results for 1981 JOs in the Fall 1981 issue of the USTU magazine and didn't see your name. When you say "won", do you mean you won gold?


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW not being a WTF guy, you won't see many lead leg kicks used in WTF comps. I don't think the WTF judges will score them.




They score front leg kicks, and have for a while now. They score punches too now.


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## ATC (Mar 24, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> A bada kick would not be a very good counter to the hook kicks thrown from Wallace's style of chamber by anyone on the same level of ability


Well I strongly disagree with that statement. There are quite a few ways to bada and just about all of them would work well. Those that don't think so just don't know how to use them well. Bada counters work in almost every situation if you know what type and have the timing for each down.


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 24, 2011)

Puunui, I won the gold for the 16-17 yr. old advanced heavyweight division in '81. Wasn't it changed from AAU to USTU in 1985? I wouldn't think there would be a USTU magazine at that time. Do you have any links to the fall edition of that magazine? BTW, I also placed in the Nationals in the adult division that year, though I was only 16. After I turned 18, I switched to amateur boxing and pro kickboxing. Now I do Submission Grappling and Jiu-Jitsu  tournaments and won the silver at the NAGA World Grappling Championships in April of last year (No-Gi Expert Super Heavyweight) and the World Jiu-Jitsu Championships (No-Gi Expert Heavyweight) in December of last year.

ATC, remember that I am more talking about how Bill Wallace would use his hook in combos rather than as a single kick. Also, I'm putting it in the context of kickboxing matches. How often do you see the bada kicks used in that context? There are some people who might claim that it's because "kickboxers aren't good enough at TKD", but the truth is that you don't see it used in kickboxing or MMA extensively because w/o the strenuous rule restrictions of WTF TKD and the high level of fighters in those sports, it just doesn't have nearly as much success. I will not bash it and say that it is useless and I do use and teach it, but to a much more limited role since we train and spar under a much broader rule set.


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> Puunui, I won the gold for the 16-17 yr. old advanced heavyweight division in '81. Wasn't it changed from AAU to USTU in 1985? I wouldn't think there would be a USTU magazine at that time. Do you have any links to the fall edition of that magazine?




I have the actual magazine; it is not online to my knowledge. I have every magazine that the USTU has ever published. The title of the magazine is "Tae Kwon Do Journal & Martial Arts Research Quarterly", Vol. 1, No. 3, Fall 1981. The editor is Dr. Ken Min. It is the official magazine for the AAU Taekwondo program, the predecessor of the USTU. The AAU turned into the USTU in 1984, not 1985. 

The black belt 16-17 year old heavyweight winner is listed as Sun Park; the super heavyweight winner is Brian Tupes. For 16-17 Brown-Red Belt, the Heavyweight winner was Brian Blevins, and Superheavy was Scott de Coursey. For 16-17 green-blue, heavyweight winner was Dong-Hwi Shinn, superheavy Randy Smith. 16-17 year old white/yellow, heavyweight winner was Anthony Thomas, superheavy Lyndel Parks. 




Kwan Jang said:


> BTW, I also placed in the Nationals in the adult division that year, though I was only 16.



What weight division? The magazine also lists the winners from nationals that year, and your name is not listed. 

Sorry.


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## puunui (Mar 24, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> ATC, remember that I am more talking about how Bill Wallace would use his hook in combos rather than as a single kick. Also, I'm putting it in the context of kickboxing matches.




I would direct you to the title of this subject thread, which is "Bill Wallace Fighting Style in WTF TKD Tournaments".


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 25, 2011)

UC Berkley 1981:red belt heavyweight 16-17. IIRC Ken Min and Jerome Ritchenbauch (not sure if that is the correct spelling) were the promoters. I probably still have the medal somewhere. I don't know about your magazine (if it exists), but I do know that I fought there and took gold. Also, the '81 nationals held at UC Berkley, I took 4th in the adult welterweight division (red belt), I believe the division was won by Marc Williams (an older team mate of mine) who fought in the '81 Goodwill games between USA and Mexico in the BB division despite him being a red belt.

Regardless of the title of the thread, my response was based on ATC's comment towards my post regarding Bill Wallace's fighting style regarding less restricted rule sets. The severe limitations of WTF TKD sparring rules creates many artificial circumstances that allow what would otherwise be very ineffective strategies and techniques to flourish. As in my previous post, I'll state my opinion that it would be of great value to ALL martial artists to spend serious training time in working on things that go beyond the limitations of their sports rule sets. Even MMA which has the least limited rule set of any martial sport and IMO is the closest to real life close quarter combat should be supplemented to be truly effective. This is why I have cross trained for decades in the FMA's and in RBSD systems as well.

TKD is my traditional base and my roots. I consider TKD as a beautiful art with the most versatile kicking system out there. The sport of WTF TKD was also a sport that I played as a child and when I mostly had a choice between it and point sparring, it was my preferrence. However, when I outgrew childhood, I put aside childish things and evolved further (OK, I admit that at least in part, I am mostly taking a dig at someone who appears to be a hardcore TKD traditionalist that is making some rude and false insinuations, but the sting in my dig is there is an element of truth to it). I do believe that WTF TKD took a wrong turn, though there is some movement in a more positive direction in it's rule set. Though I doubt it will ever go nearly far enough and will also be forever bogged down in it's extreme politics.


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## ATC (Mar 25, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> Puunui, I won the gold for the 16-17 yr. old advanced heavyweight division in '81. Wasn't it changed from AAU to USTU in 1985? I wouldn't think there would be a USTU magazine at that time. Do you have any links to the fall edition of that magazine? BTW, I also placed in the Nationals in the adult division that year, though I was only 16. After I turned 18, I switched to amateur boxing and pro kickboxing. Now I do Submission Grappling and Jiu-Jitsu tournaments and won the silver at the NAGA World Grappling Championships in April of last year (No-Gi Expert Super Heavyweight) and the World Jiu-Jitsu Championships (No-Gi Expert Heavyweight) in December of last year.
> 
> ATC, remember that I am more talking about how Bill Wallace would use his hook in combos rather than as a single kick. Also, *I'm putting it in the context of kickboxing matches.* How often do you see the bada kicks used in that context? There are some people who might claim that it's because "kickboxers aren't good enough at TKD", but the truth is that you don't see it used in kickboxing or MMA extensively because w/o the strenuous rule restrictions of WTF TKD and the high level of fighters in those sports, it just doesn't have nearly as much success. I will not bash it and say that it is useless and I do use and teach it, but to a much more limited role since we train and spar under a much broader rule set.


But the context of the OP was Super Foot's style in WTF fighting not the other way around.

Also many think that the lead leg and the cut or side kick are making a comeback but I don't think they are, they were never gone. I have been coaching for the past 10 years now and we have always taught the lead leg round kick and lead leg and rear leg cut (side kick). Our game has not change since I have been coaching. The use of the EPP system just made what we have been doing all along valid.


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## ATC (Mar 25, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> Even MMA which has the *least limited rule set of any martial sport and IMO is the closest to real life close quarter combat..*.


Really?!?! That is debatable. I don't think MMA is that close to real fighting at all. Yes it rule set is less restrictive but not by much. I could list 12 restriction or more that will be used in every real life combat situation that is not in MMA matches. The one restriction that all MMA fighters have that won&#8217;t be a part of many or most real altercations is the cage. I would love to see a boxer vs. an MMA fighter on a football field. How many times have you seen a guy shoot for the take down in MMA miss or get stop but have the cage stop the defender of the take down, then have them fight for position on the cage wall until finally they go down. Then the cage is used to pin or restrict movement. It is not that easy to take someone down in the open that does not want to go down. Simple body turns (parries) stop this. Only two people that want to go to the ground will, if in the open. In the cage you can take someone down simply by hugging them against the cage wall and then falling on your own back, pulling them down on top of you, if you want them on the ground. In the open one simply needs to keep moving and turning. MMA is just like every other sport, just that, a sport.

The truth is that most *serious* practitioners of any MA can defend against many would be criminals. It's when they come up against that hardened street thug that works out and has been in many scuffles on the street. Those types are martial artist in their own sense, and if foced to defend against one, the defender better have a few things that can't be taught, because those thug types have those un-teachable traits. They also happen to be ill tempered and on the wrong side of good also.

Sport is mutual. Self-defense is not. In sport one is trying to out point or KO the other person, both have the same goal. In SD the goals for each are very different. Not points, not position, no cage, no ring, no pulling guard. Pull guard in a SD situation and you could find yourself stabbed, kicked by buddies of the thug standing on the side or whatever else. Never go to the ground if you can avoid it, and you should avoid it at all cost. Two guys trying to see who the better wrestler is great, but other than that, no way should you go to the ground.

Don't let MMA give you that false sense of this is close to real, it is not in my opinion, no sport is.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> In the 1987 WTF Video "The Art of Taekwondo Competition", which was cutting edge at the time, they called an ax kick a "hook kick", and a hook kick a "whip kick". Korean terms tend to describe the action or motion of the movement, hence you "hook" down on an ax kick and "whip" a spin hook kick.



I digitised my copy of this video and have it on my computer.  Even though it's so old now (and times have moved on), I still find it so inspirational!


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 25, 2011)

ATC, nice bit of "anti-grappling propaganda" ther often thrown out there by the ignorant about grappling. A skilled grappler does not need the cage for takedowns especially against someone who is not in their league at defending takedowns. On the major grappling circuits, NAGA, ADCC, Grappler's Quest, FILA, there is no cage and just try using a "simple body turn (parry)" to prevent a takedown from anyone out of the novice division (less than 6 mos. training) and I would honestly doubt your odds against someone in that division too, especially given your statements. Now among well trained grapplers and MMA fighters who train using the cage as a tool and can counter sprawls, ect.

How many Judoka and wrestlers rely on a cage to take someone down? In grappling and MMA you see quite a few fighters with elite level backgrounds in these sports. I have both trained with and fought against former Olympic team members in both sports in NAGA events, though BJJ is the dominant system or base for most (though my base is JJJ and Judo). BTW, did Randy Couture rely on the cage to take James Toney down with a double leg? Guess he would have done it just as eaily on a football field. And while not a cage, you might want to include obstacles and confined quarters in your SD training as well.

I am not some outsider or MMA wannabe taking uneducated potshots at TKD, I myself am a 6th dan and testing for 7th next year. My instructor was the bronze medalist at the '77 WTF TKD world championships. His instructor (who I did some of my early training with) GM Dan Kyu Choi was the coach of the USA team for that world championship. KJN Ernie is currently a VP for the US TKD Committee. Among my long time classmates (and Seniors) Dianne Murray was the silver medalist at the '92 Olympics. Greg Fears was a two-time silver medal winner at the world championships. (P, these should be a bit easier for you to verify since record keeping is probably more accurate on these FAR more important events).

I defend the valid points and strengths of TKD as an art and fighting system to the potshots that many MMA, BJJ and Submission Grapplers take and also don't mind pointing out the holes in those systems and sports as well. I just don't believe TKD as a system will ever evolve into the next level if the objective is to bury one's head in the sand. There are many who are satisfied with the status quoa and that is fine for them. Hey, it' IS the most popular MA in the world and the sport is still in the Olympics.


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## ATC (Mar 25, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> ATC, nice bit of "anti-grappling propaganda" ther often thrown out there by the ignorant about grappling. A skilled grappler does not need the cage for takedowns especially against someone who is not in their league at defending takedowns. On the major grappling circuits, NAGA, ADCC, Grappler's Quest, FILA, there is no cage and just try using a "simple body turn (parry)" to prevent a takedown from anyone out of the novice division (less than 6 mos. training) and I would honestly doubt your odds against someone in that division too, especially given your statements. Now among well trained grapplers and MMA fighters who train using the cage as a tool and can counter sprawls, ect.
> 
> How many Judoka and wrestlers rely on a cage to take someone down? In grappling and MMA you see quite a few fighters with elite level backgrounds in these sports. I have both trained with and fought against former Olympic team members in both sports in NAGA events, though BJJ is the dominant system or base for most (though my base is JJJ and Judo). BTW, did Randy Couture rely on the cage to take James Toney down with a double leg? Guess he would have done it just as eaily on a football field. And while not a cage, you might want to include obstacles and confined quarters in your SD training as well.
> 
> ...


All good and fair statements that you made. Remember I was only debating the statement of MMA being close or closest to real combat, it is only a walking stance closer if even that much.


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## Gorilla (Mar 25, 2011)

I am a big fan of all Martial Arts!

I am not a big fan of saying one is better that the other!  

They all have their merits/opportunities! 

From the sport aspect they all have different rules and objectives.

In Las Vegas were we live we have had allot of opportunity to train along side many MMA fighters.  

All the athletes had a mutual respect for the hard work and skill needed to be great at both!!!


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## MJS (Mar 25, 2011)

Guys,

We're drifting a bit from the OP here.  If you'd like, I'd be happy to split the MMA discussion to its own thread, but otherwise, lets try to get back to the original topic. 

Thanks.


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## puunui (Mar 26, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> UC Berkley 1981:red belt heavyweight 16-17. IIRC Ken Min and Jerome Ritchenbauch (not sure if that is the correct spelling) were the promoters. I probably still have the medal somewhere. I don't know about your magazine (if it exists), but I do know that I fought there and took gold. Also, the '81 nationals held at UC Berkley, I took 4th in the adult welterweight division (red belt), I believe the division was won by Marc Williams (an older team mate of mine) who fought in the '81 Goodwill games between USA and Mexico in the BB division despite him being a red belt.




1981 JOs was held at the Nicosan Hall Fieldhouse at Indiana Central University; 1981 Senior Nationals was held at the Sun Dome at the University of South Florida (Tampa); neither was held at UC Berkeley. And the magazine exists. If you were a registered member of the AAU program back then you would have received a complementary copy. I do believe that you fought at some tournaments in 1981 but you are somehow under the mistaken impression that it was AAU JOs and Nationals.


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## puunui (Mar 26, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> Among my long time classmates (and Seniors) Dianne Murray was the silver medalist at the '92 Olympics. Greg Fears was a two-time silver medal winner at the world championships. (P, these should be a bit easier for you to verify since record keeping is probably more accurate on these FAR more important events).




Those competitors' records are easily verifiable; yours is not, mainly because the tournaments that you competed at in 1981 using Bill Wallace's style wasn't JOs or Nationals.


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## puunui (Mar 26, 2011)

Kwan Jang said:


> TKD is my traditional base and my roots. I consider TKD as a beautiful art with the most versatile kicking system out there. The sport of WTF TKD was also a sport that I played as a child and when I mostly had a choice between it and point sparring, it was my preferrence. However, when I outgrew childhood, I put aside childish things and evolved further (OK, I admit that at least in part, I am mostly taking a dig at someone who appears to be a hardcore TKD traditionalist that is making some rude and false insinuations, but the sting in my dig is there is an element of truth to it).




"hardcore TKD traditionalist" -- are you referring to me? No one ever called me that before. But tell you what, I will mail you a copy of the magazine's articles on 1981 JOs and Nationals, with the results and then you can determine who is making the rude and false insinuations, and whether an apology is in order. I can understand how you feel, believing something for 30 years only to learn that you may have been mistaken all these years.


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 27, 2011)

I looked up the Senior Nationals that I fought in at UC Berkley on the USA TKD site and it was 1980, not '81. Also my team mate, Marc Williams ended up second, not first in that one. So at least on that one, I stand corrected on dates, though not in my competition. If I can find more info on the JO, I will. I do know that it was the very first Junior Olympics in TKD, was that "80 or '81? The sponsors was Sears and I always thought it was cheesy that they had "Sears" printed on the medal and the certificates. IF I have my dates/years mixed up (based on the fact that I was off on the year for the Nat'ls and if my senile brain recalls correctly, they were the same year), you might not be the Troll I thought you to be and I might not be as delusional as you believe. (P.S.-It's a lot easier to track down my more recent grappling stuff since it is all online. So far, I am having trouble finding anything regarding the TKD JO's earlier than 1982).


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## Kwan Jang (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm going to bed after this (this bugged me and I stayed up way past my bedtime), but I looked up the promoter, GM Jerome Reitenbach's website and the tournament that I took gold at is listed as the 1981 AAU/USA Junior Olympic Tae Kwon Do Championship. If that is not "THE" JO, I stand corrected, but that is how it was presented to us and he was a USTU VP and along with Dr. Ken Min (they pretty much co-promoted almost all of their events), the top guys as far as TKD promoters on the West Coast at the time. I also remember that there were teams from several other countries and he was really upset about how the USA flag was carried in by our team as "Not honoring the USA" properly. On his website, there are no results from the tournament, but it is listed as one that he promoted between 1981-1984.


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