# Muay Pram



## brokenbonz (Jan 7, 2006)

muay pran, anybody ever heard of this type of thai grappling? I've seen it mentioned on a muay boran site from italy (marco decesaris site) but not much info came with it.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 8, 2006)

brokenbonz said:
			
		

> muay pran, anybody ever heard of this type of thai grappling? I've seen it mentioned on a muay boran site from italy (marco decesaris site) but not much info came with it.


 
Muay Plam. Mostly stand up grappling and takedowns; not so much the submission wrestling we've come to associate grappling with. Muay Thai is currently overrun with misinformation in an attempt to market ancient Thai boxing (Muay Thai Boran) I have learned not to buy into it. I did a historical review in relation to a site on Muay Thai Boran, done by a reputable camp, and found it to be not quite accurate. I'm kind of thinking it's an attempt to market to farang, but could be a Thai nationalist thing--it tends to happen, historically, about once a century.


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## blackdiamondcobra (Jan 8, 2006)

Plam simply means to wrestle or grapple. Alot of the foreigners call the clinchwork in Muay Thai plam.

As far as Marco De Cesarsis and his ilk dont buy into anything at all he says. he is just marketing stuff to the foreigners that he himself doesnt know and cant define.  its just taking terminology and making a whole thing out of it that has no meaning in the real thai martial arts world.  His material comes from the physical education department of thailand and was a program made up to teach young children and kids about muay boran. When he wakes up, does his homework and actually trains with the real masters he will realize this.  Hes just selling people a hollow vessel.  If you doubt what I say simply go to thailand and train and it will give you the answer in like two seconds.

A one time plam or basic wrestling did exist in thailand like in the neighborhing countries but it died out while marginally holding on in burma, laos, cambodia, vietnam, etc.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 8, 2006)

blackdiamondcobra said:
			
		

> Plam simply means to wrestle or grapple. Alot of the foreigners call the clinchwork in Muay Thai plam.
> 
> As far as Marco De Cesarsis and his ilk dont buy into anything at all he says. he is just marketing stuff to the foreigners that he himself doesnt know and cant define. its just taking terminology and making a whole thing out of it that has no meaning in the real thai martial arts world. His material comes from the physical education department of thailand and was a program made up to teach young children and kids about muay boran. When he wakes up, does his homework and actually trains with the real masters he will realize this. Hes just selling people a hollow vessel. If you doubt what I say simply go to thailand and train and it will give you the answer in like two seconds.
> 
> A one time plam or basic wrestling did exist in thailand like in the neighborhing countries but it died out while marginally holding on in burma, laos, cambodia, vietnam, etc.


 
It's quite likely that it died out after Ayutthaya. The dynasty after that was collectively Chinese, and the arts practiced after that would have had a distinct Chinese influence. Moreover, according to Colin Brown in a History of Indonesia, "*y the first century CE Java was also tied-in to the trade route that linked China to the Roman Empire in the Mediterranean, a truly international network." Since the people in the Chayophraya basin(later to become ruled by Ayutthaya, and then later to become ruled by Bangkok--a Chinese trade settlement--established after a, primarily Chinese revivalist, Phaya Taksin ("the great"))were traders, primarily with the Chinese around the same time, it's safe to assume that some of the influences from Greco-roman wrestling must have influenced Muay Thai Plam.*


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 8, 2006)

I'll post my little history review if people are interested.


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## brokenbonz (Jan 8, 2006)

definiteley post, this is all interesting infos hard to obtain anywhere!


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 8, 2006)

blackdiamondcobra said:
			
		

> Plam simply means to wrestle or grapple. Alot of the foreigners call the clinchwork in Muay Thai plam.
> 
> When he wakes up, does his homework and actually trains with the real masters he will realize this. Hes just selling people a hollow vessel. If you doubt what I say simply go to thailand and train and it will give you the answer in like two seconds.


 
Muay Thai Boran has always been available in backyard camps; the contention that it has died out, is silly, and is based on the misconception that, because Muay Thai sport gyms generally don't teach it, means they don't know it. Most Ajarns and Krus of a certain age know it, they just don't market it. if I went to Ganyao Fairtex and dropped cash on Muay Thai Boran, he'd probably teach it to me. Is that truly Muay Thai Boran? Maybe, most records indicate Muay Thai Boran being commonplace in the Chakri Dynasty, under King Rama I, which is questionable.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 9, 2006)

brokenbonz said:
			
		

> definiteley post, this is all interesting infos hard to obtain anywhere!


 
This is meant to serve as a brief overview of Thai (here in after interchangeable with Siam) history, in an attempt to discuss the history of Muay Thai. Muay Thais history is a little hard to pin down sometimes, and thus, there is a lot of misconception and misinformation being passed around, that doesnt necessarily comply with the history of the region. This misinformation appears to be product of several thingsdiscussed laterbut, primarily, due to the Thais relentless devotion to its Nation. You will see, later, how nationalism will effect, not only the Thai people, but the way they choose to present their history.

Before Thailand, before Bangkok, before Siam, and before Ayutthaya, the earliest forms of language/writing were _Mon_ and _Khmer_, adapted from southern Indian scripts. The area of Mon is in modern Burma (Myanmar), and Khmer is in modern day Cambodia. Because Thailand was such dense forest, people settled along the coast line and the river basins. The first influx of settlers came around the time of the bronze age (2500 BCE), and again in the iron age (500 BCE). The first group of people in the area are known as the Mon-Khmer group (Thai). The first main settlements were in the Chaophraya basin (central Thailand) and the Lower Mekong basin (Cambodia).


The next known language, Tai, is supposed to have originated from south of the Yangzi River, as the Han Chinese spread into the area in sixth century BCE. In his book, _A History of Thailand_, Chris Baker explains that: [the Chinese] probably took with them some expertise in growing rice using the water from mountain streams. . .[the Thai] may also have acquired some martial skills from their encounters with the Chinese because other peoples saw [the Thai] as fierce warriors. Some of the earlier, mainly Mon-Khmer inhabitants retreated upwards into the hills. Others co-existed with this farmer-warrior elite, often adopting a Tai language and gradually losing their own separate identity.​Chiang Mai, in the Lanna region, was founded by a Tai prince with Mon-Khmer blood. The Mueang Nua region, or northern cities, was founded by Tai confederations, which included Sukhothai. Finally, the areas in the Chaophraya basin, including Ayutthaya, were founded under Khmer (Cambodian) influence (Baker). Ayutthaya emerged as the dominant city in the late 1300s, and the region was coined the _Xian_ region, by the Chinese, which the Portugese later interpreted as _Siam_. To review, the Tai/Mon-Khmer (Burmese and Cambodian, primarily, with Chinese blood) settled in Lanna, the Tai (Chinese, primarily, and Mon-Khmer) settled in the Mueang Nua region, and the Khmer (Cambodian)settled in the region of Siam. This information will play an important role when we look at the influences on the various styles of Muay Thai.

We will fast-forward here, a little. Late 1400s Mueang Nua has come under Ayutthayas control; with Phitsanulok serving as Ayutthayas second capitol, mostly as a post in the wars with Lanna over Chiang Mai. Ayutthaya succeeds after many long battles, enslaving Chiang Mai and abolishing all weapons (which is why Lannas Muay Thai is rumored to be the more extensive style). The regions economy is based solely on trade with, primarily the Chinese, but also with India, Persia the Malay archipelago and the Portugese. The three main ports in the region are Pegu, in Burma, Lawaek-Udong in the Mekong Delta (Cambodia), and Ayutthaya, in Siam; all three competed to control the interior resources or trade with China. The Portugese brought Siam cannons and, eventually, muskets, which they used to conquer and place a puppet king in Khmer (Cambodia). The Burmese, however, joined with the Nobles of old in the Lanna and Mueang Nua and brought Ayutthaya down in 1559, taking a young Ayutthayan prince, Naresuan (Baker). 

The role of Naresuan is of utmost importance to the Thai people. Naresuan escaped Burma, returned to Ayutthaya, and spent most of his fifteen year rein as king involved in military campaigns against the Burmese to re-establish Ayutthayas dominance. Naresuan is the first of the warrior-kings, establishing this as a tradition for Siamese/Thai culture. Naresuan is glamorized for his success against the Burmese, and his expertise in Krabi Krabong, which will become the standard form of close-range fighting in the Siamese military. These wars ended in a stalemate, forcing the area into peace. Trade resumed, and expanded; and during the seventeenth century, Chinese, Viet, Cham, Mon, Portugese, Arab, Indian, Persian, Japanese, groups from the Archipelago, Dutch, French and English settlements were established in Ayutthaya and the southern peninsula.


It is during this time, most likely, that feats ofwhat is now traditionalarmed and unarmed combat were performed. Because of the peace, various regions, both Siamese and external, would have competed to demonstrate their martial ability. In fact, within Siam, it was how nobles, military personnel, and kings were chosen. Those with a chance to ascend the throne had to have royal blood and preferably be closely related to the previous monarch. . .each succession was a trial of strength, usually involving the previous kings brothers and sons. In a martial era, such a contest made sense as a way to select a warrior-king. . .[t]hese contests began with a miniature civil war fought in the centre of the capitol, and ended with wholesale purges of the nobles who backed the wrong side and of male royal relatives who might want to renew the contest at some later date (Baker).​The politics of the monarchy, after this point, begin to alienate, not only the people, but the nobles, as well. The monarchy adopts a Hindu facade, while the people, and even the monarchy themselves, are Theravada Buddhists. The Sangha, or monastic society, gained power, and developed a system of checks-and-balances with the monarchy. Trade brings riches, thus, a more relaxed, non-martial-oriented era, where high taxes and easy trade-affairs jobs meant that people would no longer perform their mandatory, semi-annual military duty. After more than 150 years of relative peace, the Burmese surprised Siam with its military attack, and completely demolished Ayutthaya, burning everything to the ground. The fall of Ayutthaya brought an end to the old martial era (Baker).


Here, I will shift, and address some of the information Muay Thai camps are producing. *Sangha Muay Thai camp* in Lannas Chiang Mai, offers information on Muay Thai Boran, or Ancient Thai Boxing. I use this site, because it is the site I see used most frequently presented as solid historical information on Muay Thai. The synopsis of history on the site, verbatim, reads: It is believed that the Siamese people had their own styles of fighting, in each Kingdom a different style. These fighting systems have clearly been evolving for many hundreds of years and have been known under many different names such as; "Arwut Thai" (meaning Thai Weapons), "Pahuyut" (armed, unarmed combat). 

Much later, at the end of the Ayuthaya Period, or around the beginning of the Thonburi Period after a long history of fighting against the Burmese, King Phra Thaksin "The Great" finally pushed all invaders from the Kingdoms of Siam and with this the Chakri dynasty began. The Chakri dynasty with King Rama I on the throne, marked a period when nearly all of the separate Kingdoms of Siam joined together to become the country we now know as Thailand. 

At the end of the 1700's, with wars against invaders over, fighters began to compete locally, and often in front of the King to see who had the best style. Most people recognize this period in the history of Muay Thai as fighters used to wrap their hands in cotton twine. Today, people refer to this style of fighting (during this period) as "Muay Kaat Chueak" although at the time, this isn't the term people used. "Muay Kaat Chueak" began to decline around the 1920's, finally ending in 1929 with a death in the ring.​This is where Nationalism effects the presentation of Thai history. First, it states around the end of Ayutthaya, _or_ the beginning of the Thonburi era, Taksin pushed the invaders from Siam. Actually, Taksin _is_ the Thonburi period. Phaya Taksins origins are obscure, says Baker; he is most likely the offspring of a Teochiu Chinese migrant gambler and his Thai wife, who, herself, is most likely a mix of Thai and Chinese. Taksin is suspected to have bribed his way into governorship of the town of Tak, prior to establishing a new capitol in Thonburi, across the river from Bangkok. Taksin had no claims to the throne, but is credited with the revival of the warrior-king tradition, and brought back a militarized society; except that he surrounded himself with Chinese, not Siamese, personnel, for lack of further explanation (Bangkok was a Chinese trading settlement). In the end of the eighteenth century, Taksin lead a military expedition into the Lanna and peninsula regions of Siam, driving the Burmese out of both regions and reestablishing Siam, once again. 

Taksin appointed two generals, first, Bunma, a descendent of the old Mon nobility, and then Bunmas older brother, Thongduang. The two were Taksins most successful generals. Thongduang came to represent the old Mon nobility, that had been excluded from Taksins monarchy; the Mon nobility staged a coup, because of Taksins ethnicity, disregard for the Sangha, and forcing the nobility into the military. Taksin was executed in 1782, and Thongduanghimself of Chinese decent, although lesssat on the throne as King Yotfa, also known as Rama I. The capitol was moved across the river to Bangkok (then still a Chinese trade settlement). Thongduangs title as minister of the military was Chakri, thus, it became the name of the new dynasty. 

In Sanghas depiction, all participants are portrayed as being Siamese, when in fact, during the period they are referring to, the major players were of Chinese descent, dealing with Chinese, to promote and reestablish Chinese trade. The new king, while presented by the Mon nobility, was also Chinese, and built the new Siamese capital out of a Chinese settlement. Moreover, during this periodThonburi/Chakrithere was constant military occupation, restoring the population of Siam by forcing people of subsequently conquered regions outside of Siam (Burma, Cambodia and Laos) to populate Siam. The regions were not joined, as Sangha depicts, they were inducted; and Siam was not redefined and established as Thailand until 1939, certainly not in the early 1800s, as Sangha is presenting it. It should be noted that the majority of the population in Siam, were not of Siamese descent. 

It is more likely that traditional forms of Thai combat were performed during the period of peace, beginning under King Naresuan, and ending with the fall of Ayutthaya. The logic here is that, during the Chakri Dynasty, the influence on martial arts would have been primarily Chinese, mixed with arts from Burma, Lao, Khmer and Viet, not to mention the influence of the Malay archipelagoincluding Indonesia, the Portugese, Dutch, French and English traders would have had on Siamese military tactics. Thus, if the Muay Thai of this period is being presented as ancient Muay Thai, based solely on Siamese developed military tactics, it is quite safe to assume that the assertion is not accurate. It most certainly does not coincide with historical accounts and logical conclusions based on those historical accounts.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 9, 2006)

In my post dealing with colin brown, it should say international, not, national, as I first put.


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## blackdiamondcobra (Jan 9, 2006)

Wrestling existed in small fractions way after Ayutthia.  There are records of people witnessing it with details. Greco roman was not the major influence it was indo-tibetan and mongolian with the mix changing depending on where, some areas closer to the north, south, etc.  India played a huge part also in the thai martial arts.

Bare Knuckle systems survived through unbroken lines and continue to be taught today with their own distinctions. I have recorded and been handed handwritten documents from many of the remaining masters which I have carefully translated and corresponded with the techniques that were taught to me.  Bare Knuckle also existed as a rite of passage during festivals, it was not always a just set up bouts as we know of today. Such systems of weapons training as well from phrya pichai and king naresuan are still taught as well today.  Its just no foreigners have ventured to do research or find them to train so everything remains an enigma or it doesnt exist.  I had no problem finding any system or any old master that I needed to find and continue to find through the years.

I have lived and trained in thailand for a very long and to make an assumption that many people know it especially Muay Thai trainer's is a huge falsehood. Most Muay Thai champs or trainers couldnt be bothered, they do Muay Thai to make money its a business and they could care for anything else. Some of the older trainers did but again they ran camps to develop ring technicians.  Kru Yodthong knows it but he spends most of his time crafting ring fighters of course if he had the time and you wanted to learn he would but he is the rare example.  There is also another issue to be addressed is that bare knuckle fighters hated the very existance and change over to Muay Thai.  They saw it as the death of a once royal art fallen to a low art. So that gulf is even wider and became even wider by the late Ajarn Khetr's constant criticism of ring muay thai during his lifetime.

The history matter is something else and I dont have the time to comment on the massive writing above.  I have a book forthcoming with my fifteen years of research on the topic and its historical evolution is part as well as a cross cultural examination against the burmese, cambodian and laotian systems as well as india. Also you have to define muay boran and the various other terms as opposed to the regional systems. And if you say bound fist or terms like that how does it fit into the northern systems some of which fought without bindings?

The message though that is most important here(as it relates to the issue of muay boran) is that the government took a hand in promoting cultural activities thus pushing away the authentic masters creating muay boran and krabi krabong templates which is what the foreigners mostly learn and propagate as some holy grail  which is non functional and just a way to teach the young about their culture since warfare and the art of krabi krabong and in small part bare knuckle were arts that they believe is in their blood and made the country strong.

Adrenaline: you did a good job piecing material together for your thesis but once the other information becomes available along with the links you will be able to broaden out and expand the influence field.  The sangha site is interesting but its limited in terms of hard research including missing alot of actual systems and their evolution. Also the pichai songkram-the thai manual of warfare-needs to be covered.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 9, 2006)

I certainly look forward to seeing the info you have compiled.


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## brokenbonz (Jan 9, 2006)

now's that's what I call info, thanx bro!


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jan 15, 2006)

brokenbonz said:
			
		

> now's that's what I call info, thanx bro!


 
You are quite welcome. Take it with a grain of salt, as I do not, and have not, trained in Thailand. BDC was able to point out a few points of concern. Mine was strictly a historical review, and a logical association, based on my Muay Thai experience (13 years), with the history of the area. I look forward to BDC's history, when it gets published.


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## Jagermeister (Jan 15, 2006)

Muay Pram?  You rack disciprine! :asian:


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