# Buying a bo and a bokken



## SuperFLY (Sep 27, 2011)

Hi all,

We're pretty short on spares at my Aikido dojo so I'm going to get myself my own Bokken as my Sensei said he'd like to start doing a lot more cutting techniques in lessons and additional to that my Karate sensei has mentioned it might be a good idea to get myself a bo.

There's a company I've used in the past for bits and pieces so I'm set on that, its just deciding on the one I want.

As far as bokkens go i dont need anything specialised so i'll probably go with a standard Oak Diato with a cheap tsuba for the sake of it.

http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/Wooden_Weapons__Shinai/Bokken/Standard_Bokken/Oak_Daito_-_102cm.aspx

But with the bo, there are a few options

there is the Oak Bo - http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/Wooden_Weapons__Shinai/Jo,_Bo__Naginata/Oak_Bo_-_182cm_x_3cm.aspx
the Koryu Oak Bo which seems more popular being slightly thinner - http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/Wooden...o__Naginata/Koryu_Oak_Bo_-_182cm_x_2.6cm.aspx
and a tapered version - http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/Wooden_Weapons__Shinai/Jo,_Bo__Naginata/Tapered_Oak_Bo_-_182cm.aspx

i guess the tapered version is just an aesthetics thing so my question is, what is preferred? the 3cm or 2.6cm?

i did expect more range in sizes but it seems pretty standard as far as a Bo goes.

im leaning towards the 2.6cm. seems to be the more popular but i just wanted to get your thoughts.

also, out of interest. with the colours. is there any general accepted preference or is it just down to personal taste? i prefer the darker colours so would probably get a stained one. this has the added bonus of being a lot cheaper but is this a less desirable option as i wouldnt have thought a less than uniform grain would drop the price that much!

any info welcome

cheers

Dave


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## lklawson (Sep 27, 2011)

Stains make it look good but dark stains can also hide imperfections in the wood and "mottled" natural color patterns.  As long as the integrity of the grain is good then it shouldn't be a problem.  However, turned wood usually has "grain run-out."

Thinner bo move faster and look cooler while moving but are more fragile and vulnerable to damage from accidental drops and other impacts.

Ask your Sensei for his recommendations on where and what to buy.  He may have a wholesaler discount or prefer a specific product.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 27, 2011)

I can only offer this - a bo that is used in kumite gets thrashed fast.  I recommend rattan for your beater bo to use in the dojo.  Who cares what it looks like?  A nice bo is good for doing bo kata in competitions.  And if you don't do bo kata for competitions, you don't even need that.  Hope this helps!


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## SuperFLY (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks for that guys 

the Bo will mainly be used for kata with the potential to be used in competitions. I dont believe i'll be doing any kumite using it. If I end up doing so I can always get another one for that.

i'll ask my sensei what he recommends and what he has in store for me, heh. that'll help make the decision.

cheers


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## Grenadier (Sep 27, 2011)

When I see listings for oak bo / kun, there are simply too many varieties of oak to be certain as to whether or not it will be acceptable for use. 

There are some truly excellent varieties of oak, such as Japanese Kashii, as well as some of the really nice, higher density, tighter grain red oak that Shureido uses.  

However, for most listings of "red oak," you're going to end up with cheap, porous North American or East Asian red oak.  A lot of unscrupulous vendors smooth them out by filling up the pores with wood putty, and then using a varnish that covers up these awful flaws.  This is why red oak bokken will splinter even after a light to moderate amount of contact.  

I prefer a non-tapered bo, simply because it feels more uniform in my hands.  

At my school, people who start kobudo practice usually buy 1" (2.54 cm) diameter hickory bo, untapered.  The hickory wood offers an excellent combination of strength, resilience, flexibility, and durability that's really hard to match at that price.  Often times, folks will buy two bo / kun from us: one 1" diameter hickory one for general use, and then another one made of more exotic wood for show / presentation, such as jatoba, purpleheart, wenge, or cumaru.  While the more exotic woods are perfectly good for impact, they're not as cheap, nor are they as resilient as hickory.  

I personally have three.  One is my tropical olive bo, which I use for general instruction as well as for kata performance.  It's more of a medium density wood.  My second bo is my beater, which is made of 1" diameter hickory.  My third bo is an octagonally cut 1" diameter bo made of Brazilian Rosewood, which I use as my high density, heavy bo.  I use this one for practicing various kata that force you to not rely on more of the lower body, since your arms get awfully tired if you try to use them too much with this bo.


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## Ken Morgan (Sep 27, 2011)

Go here for thoughts on woods in weapons. There are other articles on the site too.
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor_1100.htm


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## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2011)

SuperFLY said:


> Thanks for that guys
> 
> the Bo will mainly be used for kata with the potential to be used in competitions. I dont believe i'll be doing any kumite using it. If I end up doing so I can always get another one for that.
> 
> ...


Talk to your sensei -- but I'd avoid the tapered or thinner ones if you're looking for competition, unless your absolutely sure that the stick will be acceptable.  More and more traditional tournaments are prohibiting "toothpick bos" that are too thin and too light to actually even pretend to be a functional weapon.


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## SuperFLY (Sep 28, 2011)

I dont think a 4mm difference (3cm vs 2.6cm) in diameter constitutes 'toothpick' but I see your point 

I'll be training tomorrow so I'll ask him then, cheers for the replies all.


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## Grenadier (Sep 28, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Talk to your sensei -- but I'd avoid the tapered or thinner ones if you're looking for competition, unless your absolutely sure that the stick will be acceptable. More and more traditional tournaments are prohibiting "toothpick bos" that are too thin and too light to actually even pretend to be a functional weapon.



USA-NKF tournaments state that bo's must be at least 1" in diameter at the center, and that if they're tapered, they can't go any more narrow than 7/8" at the end.  That, plus they must be made out of hardwood.  I've personally forbade some folks from using their own "special" bo's for competition, since some were made out of broomsticks, some were made from pinewood dowels, and others from bamboo.  I'm actually pretty forigiving, though, and let them use my hickory beater bo in such cases if they do not have a legal bo.  

It was rather amusing to see some of these folks trying to do a kata with a "real" hardwood bo that complied with the rules.  Suddenly, the ones who were spinning the bo rapidly in one hand, and twirling it around their heads and bodies, were now struggling to generate decent power.


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## SuperFLY (Oct 2, 2011)

in case anyones interested 

i spoke to my sensei about it and he said he had 2. a tapered 'toothpick' for kata and a thicker one for kumite.

so thats exactly what i've got too. 3cm centre to 2.2cm tip tapered one for kata and a 3cm straight oak for kumite.

coupled with that i've grabbed a standard brown oak bokken for aikido. 

job done


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## Grenadier (Oct 5, 2011)

SuperFLY said:


> i spoke to my sensei about it and he said he had 2. a tapered 'toothpick' for kata and a thicker one for kumite.
> 
> so thats exactly what i've got too. 3cm centre to 2.2cm tip tapered one for kata and a 3cm straight oak for kumite.
> 
> ...



Just be careful about the standard oak bokken.  Unless you're sure of the wood source, it's probably going to crack with even a moderate impact.


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## chinto (Oct 23, 2011)

SuperFLY said:


> Hi all,
> 
> We're pretty short on spares at my Aikido dojo so I'm going to get myself my own Bokken as my Sensei said he'd like to start doing a lot more cutting techniques in lessons and additional to that my Karate sensei has mentioned it might be a good idea to get myself a bo.
> 
> ...



no the taper is not just for ascetics!!  the taper helps you keep track of your hand position on the bo, and makes the ends put more force in a smaller aria. I think you will find a good red oak bo very nice to have.  a good hard wood, normally of a species of oak is preferred for a boken.  In either case when you get the weapon sand it so you take the varethane or varnish on it off. Then rub boiled linseed oil into it or soak it in boiled linseed oil for an hour or so and wipe it off.  this will make the weapon a lot stronger, less likely to splinter and a little heavier.  the last is not really noticeable. but it will hit a lot harder as you will know that it will not brake or splinter.

go with the 3 cm I would say.


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## lklawson (Oct 23, 2011)

chinto said:


> Then rub boiled linseed oil into it or soak it in boiled linseed oil for an hour or so and wipe it off.


If you do this, burn the oily rags or run the risk of them spontaneously combusting.

Peace favor your sword,
irk


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## Zealot (Oct 23, 2011)

When in doubt trust your sensei. I know that doesnt help at all but let me add this.... The bokken is just like a blade. The colour, the shape, it all matters not at all if form doesnt follow function. Dont worry about stain and what not, thats all trivial. Your bokken will become part of you just as a blade will. i will warn you away from exotic wood wapons unless you are looking for something to work out your arms. Ironwood and Ebony being popular are also insanely heavy. Good luck mate and I hope you find a good fit. Myself I just went up and picked a few and swung them until I found the one that talked to me.

By the by I am not insane, it was a spiritual alliteration.


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## Grenadier (Oct 26, 2011)

lklawson said:


> If you do this, burn the oily rags or run the risk of them spontaneously combusting.



Another way that I use, is to take the oily rags, put them in a Ziplock bag filled with detergent + water, and then toss them out.


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## clfsean (Oct 26, 2011)

lklawson said:


> If you do this, burn the oily rags or run the risk of them spontaneously combusting.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> irk



Seriously?? I'm a total newb in this topic, but they'll *poof* by themselves?


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## jks9199 (Oct 26, 2011)

Yes, they can.  That's why you see the funky spring lid/sealing trash cans around shops that use a lot of finishing oils like that.  http://ucih.ucdavis.edu/docs/i_essay6.pdf


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## lklawson (Oct 26, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Seriously?? I'm a total newb in this topic, but they'll *poof* by themselves?


Yup.  As has been pointed out, lots of things can spontaneously combust, but linseed (aka flaxseed oil, flax oil) is especially vulnerable.  This is the stuff that the original Linoleum was made from.  As it dries, it hardens.  The hardening process is exothermic.  Combine exothermic linseed oil on cloth rags and it's a recipe for bad juju if you're not careful.  

A lot of other common wood treatments are much less vulnerable, to the point of it being a non-issue.  Polyurethane, for instance.  Not a problem with that stuff.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Grenadier (Oct 26, 2011)

clfsean said:


> Seriously?? I'm a total newb in this topic, but they'll *poof* by themselves?



Indeed.  A lot of the older paints also gave off lots of heat as they cured, which is why we were always told to never store oily or paint soaked rags together in pile.


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## SuperFLY (Oct 27, 2011)

Zealot said:


> When in doubt trust your sensei. I know that doesnt help at all but let me add this.... The bokken is just like a blade. The colour, the shape, it all matters not at all if form doesnt follow function. Dont worry about stain and what not, thats all trivial. Your bokken will become part of you just as a blade will. i will warn you away from exotic wood wapons unless you are looking for something to work out your arms. Ironwood and Ebony being popular are also insanely heavy. Good luck mate and I hope you find a good fit. Myself I just went up and picked a few and swung them until I found the one that talked to me.
> 
> By the by I am not insane, it was a spiritual alliteration.



thanks for that 

i ended up getting a standard bokken. i know 'colour' shouldnt matter but it certainly looks nice in a nice deep brown stain 

very well weighted, not too heavy and most important of all appears very good quality (there is a heavy spare one at the dojo that ive used and it really takes it out of you after a while)

came with a plastic tsuba but it doesnt quite match the stain colour and to be honest im not sure if i want to put it on. its not necessary for what we're doing.

havent had much opportunity to 'play' with my bo's but they look great, really good quality. looking forward to working with them soon.


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## chinto (Oct 29, 2011)

Yes! they will spontaneously combust!!!  so yes the ziplock bag with soapy water, or burn them or other wise dispose of them where they can not do damage if they do catch fire..  I have worked with wood and things so long I forget that a lot of people do not realize this danger.  My apology's for not telling you that.

  But I would say a good oak for both weapons is what you want. sand them when you get them first! then use them. if you rub them with oil, well I like to use my hands for that. if you do that you want to do it several times that day as the wood will provably 'drink' the oil in.  after that I would do it at least once a week for a month or so.  then every month or two rub it down for about a year.  then at least once a year. they will last a long time if you keep them oiled .


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## Indagator (Nov 3, 2011)

for both my rokushaku bo I just bought dowelling in 1.8m lengths, one was 40mm and the other 35mm, I looked up the measurements and went from there. My first one was white pine, which is too light really but good for getting the hang of things.
All it needed was finishing - the sales lady at the hardware store kept trying to talk me out of linseed oil and push me into a synthetic but in the end I just went home and used some leftover decking oil and some stain I had used from another project.
My second was a slightly rare and unique timber I picked up on holiday in the south pacific, called rimu, but again it was just milled into dowelling and then I just put a finish on.
Both (and my red oak bokken which I bought from a MA store) get regular polishing with a linseed-enriched natural furniture polish.

One thing to note, though, is that the white pine dents up something horrible when you drill with contact against another bo.


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## lklawson (Nov 3, 2011)

Indagator said:


> for both my rokushaku bo I just bought dowelling in 1.8m lengths, one was 40mm and the other 35mm, I looked up the measurements and went from there. My first one was white pine, which is too light really but good for getting the hang of things.
> All it needed was finishing - the sales lady at the hardware store kept trying to talk me out of linseed oil and push me into a synthetic but in the end I just went home and used some leftover decking oil and some stain I had used from another project.
> My second was a slightly rare and unique timber I picked up on holiday in the south pacific, called rimu, but again it was just milled into dowelling and then I just put a finish on.
> Both (and my red oak bokken which I bought from a MA store) get regular polishing with a linseed-enriched natural furniture polish.
> ...


Please be aware that turned wood ("doweling") often has "grain run-out."  This causes a weakness in the wood grain structure at that point (or multiple points) and can lead to catastrophic failure during impacts.

Dowels are ok to do non-contact practice with (or if experienced users are working, light and controlled contact), but heavy impact can shatter them into flying wooden daggers.

If you buy dowel for this purpose, inspect them carefully to ensure there is no grain run-out (you can find them sometimes if you're careful).  A "hands-on" alternative is to buy planks the width that you want, split them along the grain and then use a draw-knife to shave them down into round.  I've done this with hard Ash and it's a pain in the butt, but provides excellent results in terms of durability.  (Well, truthfully, I don't have a draw knife so I used a hand plane, which adds to the "pain in the butt" issues.)

Selecting the proper wood for doweling is important too.  Just getting the "hardwood dowel" is not always best.  They can be brittle, and seem to have grain run-out much more often then I'd expect.  Hickory dowel works a treat.  But at this point you might just consider getting natural branches.  You can buy hickory branches online.  Bois d'Arc/Osage-Orange would work great too because it's a flexible but strong wood which would make it great for partner drills.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jks9199 (Nov 3, 2011)

I've used closet poles or cheap bamboo simply to teach forms, with no contact.  I'll use dowels (selected) for short sticks -- like 1 to 2 feet.  But I would be reluctant to say the least about any beyond that.

I got very lucky once and bought one of the standard "martial arts staves" that actually lasted something like 20 years.  Including impact work.  But that was more luck than anything else.  If I really want a good stick, I'll go for a walk, and find some ironwood (often American Hornbeam, to be technical) or good oak or ash.


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## Indagator (Nov 3, 2011)

Yep I kind of forgot to mention that you really need to check your timber out throughly before doing what I did lol. Be very selective and only take the perfect piece - I had to search quite a bit to find what I was looking for with the exotic pacific wood. The pine was my first practice bo and as such I was far less discerning - although after a year or so of constant polishing it developed real character!

There are some products you can use to minimise what will happen when a bad piece of dowelling breaks, such as preventing the shower of splinters and such, but a rubbish piece definitely will break on you no matter what.

Both of my bo stand up to contact, although to be fair the pine one doesn't get pushed as hard as the other one.

Osage-orange is great wood for making longbows out of too, although again one needs to be very selective on what piece they will or will not take. 

And Lklawson, I shape and tiller my longbows with hand tools and I definitely know what you mean about it being a pain the butt!


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## lklawson (Nov 3, 2011)

Indagator said:


> And Lklawson, I shape and tiller my longbows with hand tools and I definitely know what you mean about it being a pain the butt!


Then you definitely qualify as a craftsman.  Longbows are much more demanding than staffs.  Staffs are demanding in their own right, of course, but bows, even more so.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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