# Cult Ties to Kenpo



## JKDooer (Sep 30, 2004)

Salute!

All of this talk of the Will tracy articles made me do some digging. There appears to be a cult tie in with their organization. 

Will still runs his sex cult http://www.goddess.org

Here are some articles of when they had to face charges in court.
http://www.luckymojo.com/avidyana/eldar/cmhgrvw.tn

http://www.godulike.co.uk/faiths.php?chapter=24&subject=intro

and 

http://www.watchman.org/cults/sexgodss.htm

His Rise of AK - part 3 mentions a collegue of his in the formitive years, Paul Twitchell. Twitchell started a religion cult of his own Eckankar - 
http://www.eckankar.org/


Things that make you go 'hmmm'

JKDooer


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## GAB (Sep 30, 2004)

Hi all,

Yes, cults are an interesting thing first they are a cult then they get enough members and enough money then they become a church.

I have always felt that was one of the reasons why I feel more comfortable out of the ring of fire, and into the secular side of life. 

Regards, Gary


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## Dr. Kenpo (Oct 1, 2004)

Yes, I'm a Tracy member, but know nothing of these articles cause it was beyond my time, and didn't live in swingin' California!

However, as Shaq ONiel said recently, "I don't need to buy love."


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## loki09789 (Oct 1, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Yes, cults are an interesting thing first they are a cult then they get enough members and enough money then they become a church.
> 
> ...


Even without this information there are some pretty 'cultish' practices in some schools/organizations/system.  
You wear a uniform that signifies belonging, 

you are abused, exhausted and praised for how you bear up or encouraged to work on meeting expectations (either clearly set or unclear and ambiguous). 

People tell you what is important and you follow it.

In some schools with credos and such people could be accused of following "mindless repetition"

In the worst case scenarios, the head instructor revers some diefied image or icon and acts as the living embodiment and guide for disciples so they can be 'as good as' the model ....

What is the significance or purpose of such information?


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## Zoran (Oct 1, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Even without this information there are some pretty 'cultish' practices in some schools/organizations/system.
> You wear a uniform that signifies belonging,
> 
> you are abused, exhausted and praised for how you bear up or encouraged to work on meeting expectations (either clearly set or unclear and ambiguous).
> ...


 Describes a lot of other styles. Could be a description of the military as well.


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## loki09789 (Oct 1, 2004)

Zoran said:
			
		

> Describes a lot of other styles. Could be a description of the military as well.


Yup, military, politics, schools, sororities..... like I said, what is the purpose of brining such information to the surface?  Defamation, exploration, discussion, getting feedback from people who may know more about it.


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## Zoran (Oct 1, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> .....like I said, what is the purpose of brining such information to the surface? Defamation, exploration, discussion, getting feedback from people who may know more about it.


 Just the current theme of the posts here lately. Looking for dirty laundry and such.

 So to play along;

Ed Parker was a Mormon.   
Back then, many considered it a cult   
In my conversations with John McSweeney and others seniors, never did I hear it implied or mentioned that there was a cultish behavior. Such as recruiting and etc. 
 Bottom line in my book is Ed Parker was an innovator and a friend to many people. He is in my lineage and he respected both my instructor and his student from the 50's and 60's, John McSweeney. Even though they no longer taught his system he still supported us and accepted what we did. 

 As to the dirty laundry of Kenpo Karate, in my personal view it is not relevant to or diminish the accomplishments of a great man. Besides, saints don't make good martial artists.


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## loki09789 (Oct 1, 2004)

Zoran said:
			
		

> Just the current theme of the posts here lately. Looking for dirty laundry and such.
> 
> So to play along;
> 
> ...


Amen, Brother.  Preachin' to the choir.

I notice that in my library there is an "Old West Coast Original" student of martial arts who wrote something about devoting time to "lengthening your line instead of cutting someone elses" in order to create a perception of 'better'.

I have a 1st Degree in Tracy Kenpo, I don't see anything in the manuels, videos, or other media presentation from the Tracy sources that would imply recruitment into a cult.

This would be like saying "Hey, I heard that guy is a CHRISTIAN, let's blow him in so he gets chewed on by lions...." between two Roman citizens.


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## The Kai (Oct 1, 2004)

I don't know to much about Mormanism(?), and I certainly never learned any more aboutit from my studies of kenpo!

Todd


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## M.C. Busman (Oct 1, 2004)

Zoran said:
			
		

> [....]As to the dirty laundry of Kenpo Karate, in my personal view it is not relevant to or diminish the accomplishments of a great man. Besides, saints don't make good martial artists.


 
Exaaaaactly.



Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman


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## JKDooer (Oct 1, 2004)

> What is the significance or purpose of such information?


Loki, you seem to understand what cults are - but not the significance of what I intended.

To follow from the previous posts...

It should be obvious that many, not all, kenpo practitioners do not think for themselves in regards to which system, instructor, method, etc. is better.  Part of cult control is to make the devotee to blindly believe theirs is the best, using an 'us against them' attitude.  I have seen this approach in many posts, web sites, and even material from kenpo masters.  The various systems of kenpo have sprung up like so many denominations of religions.

There is no 'dirty laundry' being aired here.  Dirty laundry is something you hide.  However, www.goddess.org still exists - nothing hidden.  So are the other cults that the original modern founders were disciples of.

So this brings us back to the main point.  Is kenpo a great system of martial arts in itself?  If it is, then why be so dogmatic about which system is best?  Can you teach kenpo with curriculum only, leaving out the adoration for the head masters - living and dead?  Can you drop the creeds and pledges and patches?  If so, then maybe you are not affected by mind control, or social engineering.  If not, then maybe you should consider all of the motives of all of the details of your 'kenpo sect' and  organization.  With these things in mind, re-read the Tracy documents.  There is a lot of truth wrapped up with agenda, very cleverly done.

These are questions directed at noone in particular.  But you may find, as I did, that delving into your own personal training routine may be more rewarding than adhering to the doctrine of others.

JKDooer


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## Zoran (Oct 2, 2004)

When you look for the dark side of things, then that is what you will find. Sorry, and no disrespect intended, but some of these threads are beginning to sound like paranoia to me. The goverment is out to get us, the skull society rules the world, and the Kenpo masters are cult leaders (yes, I know I am exagerating here).

Is kenpo a great system of martial arts in itself?

 I believe it is.

If it is, then why be so dogmatic about which system is best?

 Because when someone believes in something strong enough, they will always say it is the best.

Can you teach kenpo with curriculum only, leaving out the adoration for the head masters - living and dead?

 Sure you can. But what is wrong with respecting those that brought you Kenpo. And some of us love those people we knew or do know still. OR you can just say the hell with them and do what you want and pretend they were of no importance. I'll take the former over the latter.

Can you drop the creeds and pledges and patches?

 Sure why not. Train in your underwear if you want.

If so, then maybe you are not affected by mind control, or social engineering.

 Okay. Mind control, social engineering, tells me you believe there is some grand conspiracy going on. You do realize if you uncover any more we will have to arrange an accident for you....

 If not, then maybe you should consider all of the motives of all of the details of your 'kenpo sect' and  organization.

 I don't know about the others. My group just wants to take over the world and control all aspects of your life and only give you the illusion of free will.

There is a lot of truth wrapped up with agenda, very cleverly done.

 All jokes aside for a moment. When you read something and you have to try to pick out the truth vs. the agenda, it becomes a guessing game. There is nothing clever about it. People always use the truth as a tool to manipulate other people. Just look at the politicians. A lie is useless without some truth in it.

These are questions directed at none in particular. But you may find, as I did, that delving into your own personal training routine may be more rewarding than adhering to the doctrine of others.

 This I agree with you. We all have a mind and I try to teach people to use it. Don't just accept what I told you is the truth, test it for yourself and find your own truth. Students should follow and learn (but not blindly or without thought) and instructors should lead and teach (not preach or demand). I am a firm believer of ethical practice, be it in business, friends or martial arts. But it is true that there are those without ethics that are teaching the arts. So one should be aware that it does exist, just don't go around looking in every dark shadow for a conspiracy.


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## JKDooer (Oct 2, 2004)

Zoran,

Your comments are excellent.  But I wish to expand on some things...



> People always use the truth as a tool to manipulate other people. Just look at the politicians.


Exactly, it would be unwise not to sift the agenda from the truth.  Otherwise you would be following along blindly, as you say.

So what is the agenda of developing a system that encourages, and sometimes forces practitioners to idolize the founders, seniors, etc?  It is one thing to  require respect, but  another to force it.  The usual answer it money and power.

Rivalry is sometimes a healthy thing.  Our school was rivals with our owners school across town.  This developed a strong school spirit.  Our inner school contests strengthened us for the open tournements we competed in.  But in 1960s, it seems as though certain members and founders of cults purposefully developed these rivalries for power and money.  I can go on and on.  But the main thing is to carefully listen to the instructors out there. Are they openly allowing cross system training, or do they condemn you for thinking this way.  Be wary of overly opinionated dialog and stick to training.  There is no paranoia in doing this, no dark shadows.  And most of all, we must not continue to bash each others system using the same lingo spread from these instructors in their seminars.

JKDooer


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## The Kai (Oct 2, 2004)

First off I was'nt really on the scene in the 60's so I can not say how things really were> However, it seems people were in general much more "group" orientated in the early eras, wheather or not you are talking within the Martial art or not.  Was it done for power and wealth?  sure in some cases.  As a teacher I am sure you would like to say rhis is my student base-not these guys are wandering through till they get bored.

A instructor can neither allow or disallow cross training.  A student does what a student wants.  Please realize that most instructors have spent 20 yrs or so working on thier craft, some of the senior most practioners doulbe that (with some change).  Thier accumulative journals are quite full, and hopefully still growing, it is arrogent to think you've tapped the well in a year.  Bruce Lee (another cult like figure) stressed cross training, but then again he was nevert trained extensively enough in any system to speak with authority on a particular system, so he became a expert on being out side a system.
As a short example, a while afo "Doc" gave a tip fot throwing the roundhouse kick to better protect the hip joint(important as you get older and the arts become a lifelong journey).  How long did it take him to discover this??  Do want to stand on the shoulders of giants and build from there?
Todd
Sorry about the lenght


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## Ceicei (Oct 2, 2004)

JKDooer,

I hope you realize there are different levels of Kenpo training; some adhere strictly to the curriculum, others have a more progressive slant. Some instructors encourage cross training, others prefer a strong base in one style. Some stress the recitation of creeds & pledges, others do not stress as strongly. Some require patches on gis, some may allow gis to go patchless.

With this much variation, I think it may be stretching it a bit to call the Kenpo styles cult-like. Basically, it is people (instructors and students) that make Kenpo what it is. I do agree with Zoran. A person who enjoys a certain activity so much is going to develop a strong bias for it.

- Ceicei


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## KenpoDave (Oct 2, 2004)

JKDooer said:
			
		

> All of this talk of the Will tracy articles made me do some digging. There appears to be a cult tie in with their organization.
> JKDooer



Will Tracy is not involved in the Tracy Kenpo Organization.  There is no "tie-in."  You are simply trolling.

http://www.kenpokarate.com/first_shodan.html


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## JKDooer (Oct 2, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Will Tracy is not involved in the Tracy Kenpo Organization. There is no "tie-in." You are simply trolling.


KenpoDave,

This thread is not about Will Tracy, it is *because* of his articles.  His articles show the history of several men who were in cults, started cults and continue in cult activity.  As my grandfather would say, "The nuts don't fall far from the tree."  This is not to call them 'nuts'.  It is to say that since they had such strong background in being missionaries in cults, and some, including Will Tracy started one, the organizations of kenpo may have some of the elements that are considered cultic in nature, either wittingly or unwittingly.  

If you read his articles, you see a very good tactic that comes from SunTzu's Art of War.  "Expose your enemies weakness, and he will not know that yours is the same."  Will Tracy tries to say that the IKKA is a cult due to the way in which Ed Parker was part of, and associated with these other cult leaders.  Therefore, casual reader, you will not associate Tracy's of the same behavior.

This is not trolling - it should be considered a Public Service Announcement.  

'Let the buyer beware'.  Caveat Emptor

JKDooer


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## Dr. Kenpo (Oct 3, 2004)

Dr. Kenpo said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm a Tracy member, but know nothing of these articles cause it was beyond my time, and didn't live in swingin' California!
> 
> However, as Shaq ONiel said recently, "I don't need to buy love."


I heard that Seig!!!:whip:


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## loki09789 (Oct 4, 2004)

JKDooer said:
			
		

> Loki, you seem to understand what cults are - but not the significance of what I intended.
> 
> To follow from the previous posts...
> 
> ...


Again, this does not clarify the intention behind the original post.  Was it to open a discussion on how people abuse martial arts to form cults/recruitment?  Was it to talk about how the dynamics of cults exist in every 'group set up' but are amplified to extremes for less than socially acceptable purposes?

My main question was about intention not to say that "Kenpo is a cult" or any  martial art in particular is a cult or that we should blindly follow the curriculum.  My reference to curriculum was to emphasis that I don't find and cult bent to the information/ideology/mission statements, of Al Tracy Kenpo.

Yes, people have used god, religion, political agenda/parties, ... family issues, to create cultish levels of group dynamics.  So what.

If the point is to talk about 'where people have taken Kenpo' okay dig in.  Just plopping down some stand alone information with no reasoning is useless in my mind.


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## JKDooer (Oct 4, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Again, this does not clarify the intention behind the original post.


 You have to think about what is written in these post and in the articles that the post reference.




> My reference to curriculum was to emphasis that I don't find and cult bent to the information/ideology/mission statements, of Al Tracy Kenpo.


 So, let me ask you - if Al Tracy is so open to curriculum only, will he accept American Kenpo Black belt to transfer to equal rank? The answer - no. Why, because of ideology - because he wants you to think the way he does. Do American Kenpo Systems allow for rank transfer from Tracy's to their schools, or even within their own sects? No - for the same reasons. Bottom line - money and power. This is a great weakness in the kenpo systems.





> people have used god, religion, political agenda/parties, ... family issues, to create cultish levels of group dynamics. So what.


 *This is OK with you?* If the system and organization is not honest, or if it has ulterior motives and agendas, then this is a big deal, and these organizations should be avoided.

 I am fortunate to have found a few good instructors who teach independently of the founding organizations and associations. I am sure that there are some very good instructors out there. But from reading many of the posts of this and other discussion boards, the ideologies of the practitioner's association permeates their objective reasoning. It is very apparent in some of the responses to this thread, and in many threads where the Tracy vs. Parker arguments surface.

 Bottom line - you should 1.) carefully, objectively view your association's ideologies, especially when it appear to be the only' authentic' kenpo system.
 2.) don't be a victim of mind control. If you don't know a rumor or piece of history to be true, don't repeat it. Just because the head dude runs his flap off against his competitor, don't add to it. Let him fight his own business wars.
   3.) Don't create false rumors - you know - _*lie*_.
   4.) Think, before you respond.  Some of the posts to this and other threads are already answered within the same thread.


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## loki09789 (Oct 4, 2004)

JKDooer said:
			
		

> You have to think about what is written in these post and in the articles that the post reference.
> 
> 
> So, let me ask you - if Al Tracy is so open to curriculum only, will he accept American Kenpo Black belt to transfer to equal rank? The answer - no. Why, because of ideology - because he wants you to think the way he does. Do American Kenpo Systems allow for rank transfer from Tracy's to their schools, or even within their own sects? No - for the same reasons. Bottom line - money and power. This is a great weakness in the kenpo systems.
> ...


At the beginning of this post you say that the point is to read that I have to think about it....but at the end you are pretty much telling me what to think about it.

I am asking you directly what was the point if the thread starter and I am getting double talk.

On the point of curriculum and cross recognition... I have to agree with the practice of not just accepting at face value a different organizations BB as my BB.  Would I recongnize and respect said BB for interaction?  Yes.  Would I just welcome in a different ranking structures BB and not make sure that the skills, drills and materials match?  NO.

If someone decides they want to be a BB in someone elses organization, they are going to fall under a different curriculum.  It may be close, but it is still different.  I did this when I went from ATA to Jhoon Rhee TKD years back.  I was 'ranked' at a (don't honestly remember - it was really low though, like Yellow or the next one up) because that was the lowest level rank that I hasd the representative skill/ability to match JR TKD curriculum.  Only way to make sure that you are maintaining standards and quality.

Obviously, the 'so what' was to emphasize that this cult issue has been thrown out there with no context and I am asking for one to be presented.  Discussions, for success, should have a framework.

THis looks like veiled slamming guised as 'make your own opinion known.'


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## JKDooer (Oct 4, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> At the beginning of this post you say that the point is to read that I have to think about it....
> I am asking you directly what was the point if the thread starter and I am getting double talk.


Loki,

Perhaps the posts to this thread are too wordy and the point is getting lost. I will try summarize it in smaller sentences.


The title of this thread is "Cult Ties to Kenpo".
It addresses the current fascination of the Will Tracy articles.
It gives factual links verifying that some of the founders of modern kenpo were involved in cultic activity for personal gain.
It asks the readers to go back and re-read the Tracy articles with this information, objectively.
It gives suggestions to the reader how to enjoy the wonderful art of kenpo, for arts sake. Not the personal gain of others.
I can't say it much simpler that this.

Loki - martial arts are fun and enjoyable, but some individuals send the students down dead-end detours. I hope your journey is as rewarding and enlightening as mine has been. As I have said before, I know of some individuals in different kenpo camps that share and teach their without all of this 'slamming' and style bashing. Such negative actions are indicative of a subjective adherance to perference - aka the result of social engineering.


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## The Kai (Oct 5, 2004)

I don't think there aree a lot of factual ties in the article, perhaps opinion ties and circumstntional evidence.

Todd


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## JKDooer (Oct 5, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I don't think there aree a lot of factual ties in the article, perhaps opinion ties and circumstntional evidence.
> 
> Todd


 These are the factual informative links that I speak of:



> All of this talk of the Will tracy articles made me do some digging. There appears to be a cult tie in with their organization.
> 
> Will still runs his sex cult http://www.goddess.org
> 
> ...


 As for validity of the Will Tracy information, there is only appears to be enough truth to be self serving.


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## loki09789 (Oct 5, 2004)

JKDooer said:
			
		

> Loki,
> 
> Perhaps the posts to this thread are too wordy and the point is getting lost. I will try summarize it in smaller sentences.
> 
> ...


Wooh, social engineering.  The information you site may exist in fact, but may not be FACTUAL.  Someone wrote it, okay.

The fact that you organized, compiled and selected these pieces and omitted (or didn't even find) other selections leaves me to wonder what YOUR intent was in sharing the information... social engineering of your own?  

Come on, on.  Talking is talking, babbling is babbling.  "Small sentences" aside, what was your purpose for sharing it?  What is your take on this stuff?

And, btw, no written text 'suggests' to anyone anything. It sits there after the author puts it down and the reader takes it in, interprets it and evaluates the value of the content... otherwise your hearing voices.

I think I am done with this one.  Couch it in 'big words' all day, but there was an intent of somekind and it is not being owned up to or clarified well.  I don't feel like wasting my time.


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## JKDooer (Oct 5, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Wooh, social engineering. The information you site may exist in fact, but may not be FACTUAL. Someone wrote it, okay.


  All of the links that I provide are of factual basis.  Here is another one that is interesting:
http://www.subgenius.com/subg-digest/v0/0082.html



> Come on, on. Talking is talking, babbling is babbling. "Small sentences" aside, what was your purpose for sharing it? What is your take on this stuff?


 My take is simple. Since there is so much interest in the Will Tracy articles, readers and practioners should know the rest of the story about him, and how he applied his 'organizational skills', while the systems were being developed, to the kenpo systems that we have today. If your school or system is unaffected - great. But there are others who also feel that there is more to kenpo than just martial arts, and this disturbs them. Therefore, I have provided information for them from which to form a decision. If they find their system to have additional agenda, they can leave it or remain. As for me, I always seek honest, open minded practitioners who wish to train hard, for the sole purpose of increasing fighting skills; not placement and rank within a 'community', 'sect', or 'society' of like minded individuals, when those individuals are not using their own minds.



> And, btw, no written text 'suggests' to anyone anything. It sits there after the author puts it down and the reader takes it in, interprets it and evaluates the value of the content... otherwise your hearing voices.


 This is a non sequitur. What text is not written? How can you hear voices from written material?


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