# Non-mystical/religious Chinese Kung Fu/Wushu in St. Louis, Mo area?



## Forbs (Oct 3, 2014)

I am in the St. Louis area and am racking my brain trying to find a Chinese Kung Fu school that does not teach Qi Gong methods and or require me to burn incense on an alter. I enjoy Chinese history, culture, and its language very much and have always been interested in studying a Chinese martial art. However, I would like to study Kung Fu without the elements mentioned above. Do any of you mavericks know of such a location, preferably on the East side of town.

Thanks!


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## clfsean (Oct 4, 2014)

Forbs said:


> I am in the St. Louis area and am racking my brain trying to find a Chinese Kung Fu school that does not teach Qi Gong methods and or require me to burn incense on an alter. I enjoy Chinese history, culture, and its language very much and have always been interested in studying a Chinese martial art. However, I would like to study Kung Fu without the elements mentioned above. Do any of you mavericks know of such a location, preferably on the East side of town.
> 
> Thanks!



Nope. Aside from not liking incense maybe, what's the aversion to burning it? It's culture, not religion.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2014)

clfsean said:


> Nope. Aside from not liking incense maybe, what's the aversion to burning it? It's culture, not religion.


What, pray tell, is the difference, in this case?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 4, 2014)

Forbs said:


> I am in the St. Louis area and am racking my brain trying to find a Chinese Kung Fu school that does not teach Qi Gong methods and or require me to burn incense on an alter. I enjoy Chinese history, culture, and its language very much and have always been interested in studying a Chinese martial art. However, I would like to study Kung Fu without the elements mentioned above. Do any of you mavericks know of such a location, preferably on the East side of town.
> 
> Thanks!



Studied a many CMA schools and never saw any incents burning/religious CMA schools..... but Qigong is a part of CMA but that is not religious...it is martial qigong.... there are differences.


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## mograph (Oct 4, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> What, pray tell, is the difference, in this case?


Incense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Marnetmar (Oct 4, 2014)

I've never been to a CMA school that even had incense but regardless, what's wrong with incense?


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## mograph (Oct 4, 2014)

At her Catholic services, my wife liked the part where the priest "incensed the crowd."


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 5, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> I've never been to a CMA school that even had incense but regardless, what's wrong with incense?


Nothing, but it's a sign.


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## clfsean (Oct 5, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> What, pray tell, is the difference, in this case?



Culture not religion. That's kinda what it says. Have you had a chance to travel to China? Or better ... smell China? :barf:Incense is not overrated! :bangahead:


In no TCMA school that I've ever attended has it been a mandated policy to "offer incense at the sun toi". We burn lots of incense at my teacher's school. Why? His teacher did. Why? His teacher who immigrated from southern China did. He grew up with it and wasn't known to be particularly religious. 

Qi gong has about 0% in common IME with religion. It's an exercise. Anything else added to it is strictly personal from the teacher, not the root of the practice. 

If the OP doesn't like incense, that's fine, well & good. But around St Louis I wouldn't expect to find somebody teaching TCMA that requires a burning being mandated 
along with Buddhist or Taoist practices.


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## mograph (Oct 5, 2014)

clfsean said:


> Culture not religion. That's kinda what it says. Have you had a chance to travel to China? Or better ... smell China? :barf:Incense is not overrated! :bangahead:



Hee. Oh, the toilets. Vicks Vaporub, dabbed under each nostril, does wonders! 

But hey, older cultures have more rituals than newer cultures. I'm not saying that we all _have_ to observe them in order to do the MA, but getting to know the culture better has helped me interpret the (seemingly coy) language of the classic instructions.

Here's an interesting thing: cognitive scientists Gick & McGarry ("Learning from Mistakes", 1992) found that when attempting to solve problems, initial failures led to spontaneous knowledge transfer ("insight") better than initial _successes_ did. Of course, the study was more complicated than that, but it not only suggested the value of "invest in loss," but also the value of humility in learning. :asian:

Edit: I'm not into MA mysticism or western orientalism, but believe that a bit of exposure to another culture helped open up my learning.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 5, 2014)

clfsean said:


> Culture not religion. That's kinda what it says. Have you had a chance to travel to China? Or better ... smell China? :barf:Incense is not overrated! .



You go that right, ever walk past te back of a grocery store/high rise mall in China..... I don't think there are words to describe it


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## Argus (Oct 5, 2014)

Actually, a senior student of my teacher has a Wing Chun school in St. Louis:

West County*Wing Chun - Home Page
I've met and touched hands with them, and they're a good group of guys. And fairly pragmatic, too.

Wing Chun is about as "straight forward" and unceremonious as you will get when it comes to CMA. 
Learning any martial art does require an open mind, though, so I'd advise you to retain a humble and open mind.

And, don't discount internal arts. While I'm partial to WC, Tai Chi, Hsing-I, and Bagua are all excellent arts if you can accept the metaphysical side of them.


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## mograph (Oct 5, 2014)

Argus said:


> And, don't discount internal arts. While I'm partial to WC, Tai Chi, Hsing-I, and Bagua are all excellent arts if you can accept the metaphysical side of them.


To a certain extent, the teaching of the metaphysical aspect depends on the teacher, doesn't it?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 6, 2014)

Argus said:


> And, don't discount internal arts. While I'm partial to WC, Tai Chi, Hsing-I, and Bagua are all excellent arts if you can accept the metaphysical side of them.



Been training Taijiquan for over 20 years and trained a lot of Xingyiquan and a little Baguazhang and I have yet to come across a teacher that is discussing, teaching or practicing anything Metaphysical. However I have come across a lot of other people who were training it who were into things metaphysical


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## Argus (Oct 6, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Been training Taijiquan for over 20 years and trained a lot of Xingyiquan and a little Baguazhang and I have yet to come across a teacher that is discussing, teaching or practicing anything Metaphysical. However I have come across a lot of other people who were training it who were into things metaphysical



Metaphysical is probably a poor choice of words. But I think the OP would struggle with the concept of Chi and such. Hence, I was advocating to have an open mind.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 6, 2014)

Argus said:


> Metaphysical is probably a poor choice of words. But I think the OP would struggle with the concept of Chi and such. Hence, I was advocating to have an open mind.



 Ironically Qi, and the mystification/misunderstanding of it, was part of that conversation I was talking about in the other (Wing Chun) thread


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## Argus (Oct 6, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Ironically Qi, and the mystification/misunderstanding of it, was part of that conversation I was talking about in the other (Wing Chun) thread



I think a lot of WC guys have very little understanding of it. Myself included 

There are some who come from Tai Chi backgrounds and take a more internal approach, though. 

Personally, I'm still a skeptic when it comes to Qi. But I also realize that I'm pretty ignorant of it, so I'd be quite open to learning about it in a martial context if I found someone who seemed to have a pragmatic understanding.

I am very saddened to say that my only experience with Taiji / Qigong comes from a sketchy fellow I met once. He did that "punch me in the stomach" trick. Except he conveniently disappeared just before, and when he came back, his shirt that was previously untucked, was now tucked, and I'm pretty sure I punched some kind of dense foam. Also, as I punched him, I heard a sound like a whoopie cushion, which I'm pretty sure was air from his stomach being forced out of his butt 

Needless to say, I stuck with Wing Chun 

Would still love to meet a real Taiji guy, though.


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## mograph (Oct 6, 2014)

Argus said:


> Would still love to meet a real Taiji guy, though.


Ian Sinclair's not bad. North of Toronto. Ian's page.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 6, 2014)

Argus said:


> I think a lot of WC guys have very little understanding of it. Myself included
> 
> There are some who come from Tai Chi backgrounds and take a more internal approach, though.
> 
> ...




Simplest, non-mystical, description of Qi.... energy.

And how do muscles move..... energy
What keeps your body functioning..... energy

Strong Qi your healthy
Weak Qi your Sick
No Qi your dead

That about sums it up..... 

I do however realize that there are many who will not agree with that definition....it simply is not magical enough 

And if you're in the Toronto area there are a couple good Taiji people there that I know of as well (Southern Wu and Chen Taiji Practical Method) . However I am not sure if one of them (Chen Taiji Practical Method) will teach. But I will admit right now that I have no direct experience with the Southern Wu person and know only what I read.


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## mograph (Oct 7, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> And if you're in the Toronto area there are a couple good Taiji people there that I know of as well (Southern Wu and Chen Taiji Practical Method) . However I am not sure if one of them (Chen Taiji Practical Method) will teach. But I will admit right now that I have no direct experience with the Southern Wu person and know only what I read.


Eddie Wu? Good reputation, don't know personally. I think he travels a lot, so you might not get instruction directly from him.
Jack Yan? Nice fellow: he hosted Chen Zhenglei when he was in TO. Chen style.
The Practical Method folks are on Facebook. I've been meaning to check them out.

Yeah ... Qi is energy. Maybe instead of "metaphysical," the term "energetic" might be more accurate and ... neutral.

P.S. Sorry to derail this to Toronto, seeing as the OP was in St. Louis.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 7, 2014)

mograph said:


> Eddie Wu? Good reputation, don't know personally. I think he travels a lot, so you might not get instruction directly from him.
> Jack Yan? Nice fellow: he hosted Chen Zhenglei when he was in TO. Chen style.
> The Practical Method folks are on Facebook. I've been meaning to check them out.
> 
> ...



Yup, Eddie Wu, and I forgot about Jack Yan, I knew he was there and Chen style but I know little about him other that the Chen Zhenglei hosting bits. Of course I found out all of this AFTER my trip to Toronto....


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