# Laying Down



## MJS (Oct 25, 2005)

Its often said that Kenpo is not effective while on the ground.  Not too long ago I had a chat with someone regarding applications of Kenpo techniques while grappling.  I decided to apply some ideas/concepts while my training partner had me in the mounted position.  Surprisingly, there were a number of them in which parts could be applied.  Delayed Sword, Crossing Talon and Hooking Wings were a few that I found.

Has anyone else attempted the use of the techniques while on the ground?

Mike


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2005)

I would expect that much would still work, in a modified form.  Just because you find yourself on the ground grappling with someone doesn't mean you have to grapple, if grappling is not where your skills lie.  You can still punch, kick, poke, gouge and rip even when you are on the ground in a tie-up.  I think it is a separation from what might be termed "sport grappling" vs. just using whatever is necessary to neutralize an opponent while on the ground.


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I would expect that much would still work, in a modified form. Just because you find yourself on the ground grappling with someone doesn't mean you have to grapple, if grappling is not where your skills lie. You can still punch, kick, poke, gouge and rip even when you are on the ground in a tie-up. I think it is a separation from what might be termed "sport grappling" vs. just using whatever is necessary to neutralize an opponent while on the ground.


 
Exactly!!!  While I'll always feel that its important to have an understanding of the ground, ultimately the goal is not to stay there and grapple, but do what you have to do, to get back to your feet.

Mike


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## Rob Broad (Oct 25, 2005)

I have heard a few seniors say that fighting on the ground is just changing the plain you are working on and many techniques will work from the mounted position or while on the ground.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2005)

Grappling is like footwork, it just takes into account many different positions you can find yourself in.  Footwork is the key to fighting seperated, and positional grappling is the key to fighting on the ground or in a clinch.

Some of the stuff might work, in the same way it works standing firmly in one place.  But without movement you're a sitting duck against someone who knows how to move and how to use position to there advantage.

The grappling vs striking argument is really kind of silly as I can mount you and hit you at the same time, or use strikes to aid in covering my positional advances.

Submissions vs KO as ways to win maybe, but positional grappling is movement, and in the same catagory as footwork.


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## Seabrook (Oct 25, 2005)

At the east coast LTKKA camp I attended a few weeks ago, it also became apparent how many techniques from our curriculum have built-in anti-grappling applications, should a grappler try to take us down.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Rob Broad (Oct 25, 2005)

The other major consideration is how often is a competent Knepo practioner going to get into an altercation with a competent and trained grappler.


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## Seabrook (Oct 25, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The other major consideration is how often is a competent Knepo practioner going to get into an altercation with a competent and trained grappler.


 
While we want to train for ALL circumstances and situations, that is a great point Rob. 


Jamie Seabrook


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I have heard a few seniors say that fighting on the ground is just changing the plain you are working on and many techniques will work from the mounted position or while on the ground.





			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The other major consideration is how often is a competent Knepo practioner going to get into an altercation with a competent and trained grappler.



So you're saying it will work just fine, but lets just sweep it under the rug as it's not likely to ever happen and we shouldn't think about it?

If ground work is not something you do that's fine.  But be honest about it, saying "We don't do it cause it's not likely to happen, but don't worry our stuff works there too" is not doing anyone any favours.

Truth is you are not likely to get in any fights with anyone, so why bother training at all?


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## Rob Broad (Oct 25, 2005)

Actually I do train ground work, and have found many of the principles in kenpo will work while down.

Other than sport martial arts, how many times have you seen or heard of two trained people going at each other with real intent.  Yes it happened in the 60's and early 70's during the "Dojo Wars".  But it doesn't happen these days.  Your self defense training should be focused on the most probable attacks.


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2005)

Gentlemen:

I see the direction that this thread is going, which is not the direction that I had intended.  

I did not start this thread to rehash the well beaten standup vs. ground game.  I wanted to discuss success with Kenpo techniques.  I am looking for specific techniques that you may have been able to apply.  I gave a few examples, and I was looking for others to do the same.

Please, lets stay civil and return to the main topic.

Thanks,

Mike


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> But it doesn't happen these days. Your self defense training should be focused on the most probable attacks.



Which are?  And where do you source this information from?

How often have you been attacked at random?  Personally, outside of the gym I never get in fights.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> I wanted to discuss success with Kenpo techniques. I am looking for specific techniques that you may have been able to apply.



Actually a lot of them probably will work, I don't know enough about kenpo to name examples though, but the body only works in certain ways.  Whether it is mount, guard, knee in the belly or werever you are you will likely be able to find some stuff that works.

But, this is essentially standing in one place fighting if you compare it to what you are doing on your feet.  The attacks and defences alone are not what makes you a good fighter, you need footwork, timing and strategy.  The ability to use positioning and angles to your advantage in order to pull those techniques off.

Same thing on the ground, learning the techniques is good, but without movement they are near impossible to make use of in a live environment against anyone with even basic movements.

So, for anyone looking at bringing ground work into the mix, I strongly reccomend learning sweeps, escapes, guard passing, advancing postion, etc.  before you even start too look for offensive techniques that can be applied.


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## Casey_Sutherland (Oct 25, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Which are? And where do you source this information from?
> 
> How often have you been attacked at random? Personally, outside of the gym I never get in fights.


 
Enough. I have been personally randomly attacked with intent without knowing the assailant whatsoever. I think kenpo has some very good principles of physics and body mechanics that would help an attack on the ground, standing up, or if the attacker is half monkey and is flying through the air. I think that a lot of the time kenpoists get caught up in just techniques, yet there is a lot more to focus on like power principle, angles or attack, environment, etc. SGM parker was a genious.


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 25, 2005)

Just curious here. 

Anyone ever decide to try their skills against a grappler before? A good grappler, mediocre, or how about just a beginner that has a great instructor?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Oct 25, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Just curious here.
> 
> Anyone ever decide to try their skills against a grappler before? A good grappler, mediocre, or how about just a beginner that has a great instructor?


 
UHHHH DUUUHHHH!!!!!

Wouldn't preach it if I didn't do it.

DarK LorD


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 25, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Just curious here.
> 
> Anyone ever decide to try their skills against a grappler before? A good grappler, mediocre, or how about just a beginner that has a great instructor?


 
Tried them against some great grapplers. Before the UFC, there weren't a lot of guys doing BJJ. I started with the Gracies in Torrance; they were glad to have a big guy to toss around for practice (most of the other students training there were small guys). We did a lot of "good guy/bad guy" drills. One of them was to put on boxing gloves, and hold off a guy practicing shoots. Being the big guy, I drew the short straw to box Royce for demo purposes. Sez I, "Here's my chance to make an impression".

Well, I popped him on the way in by dropping height zones. It was just enough to make the uppity skinny Brazilian jocularly miffed, and I paid. Dearly. I also didn't manage to get off follow-up shots. It's harder than it looks. And if the grappler is good, in kenpo terms, your options are checked prior to even discovering their possibilities for execution.

The guys I shared the drive with (diamond lane from OC to Torrance very important) were both blacks in kenpo cousins...German's TAI, and Kajukenbo. We frequently got together off line to not only refine our ground-fighting, but also to devise kenpo-based approaches to managing weapons and distance with grapplers...sort of a "to beat them, join them".  The best we came up with was modifying kenpo weapons and universal movement patterns for offensive application from some of the superior positions. I.E., mount the guy and do first part of five swords when he swings...softens him a bit, making him more pliable for transitions to chokes. 

Or, if you're knee-up on him and he goes to press your knee off, well, how many techs are there in 154 against low pushes or grabs?  

Going for a collar choke from the mount and he grabs your right hand with your right hand? Part of crossing talon applys quite nicely, though obviously you don't get the whole tech+extension off...you're on the floor. (step with your left foot to place it next to the right side of his head while he's supine...it will modify the depth and position to allow you to get through more of it, and you can still control his mobility vis the inside of the right knee and the hyperextending pressure on the right wrist & elbow).

In BJJ, if the guy on the bottom two-hand presses you on the chest, you either "swim through" the resistance to maintain the mount, or thank him for the gift and take an arm-bar. What about modifying parting wings?

Guy on the bottom grabs your gi...what about lone kimono? Sure, you lose the footwork, but the combination of strikes works nicely.

So, anyways, you can apply kenpo in grappling, but in my own experience, it works better from the top than the bottom.

Regards,

Dave


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> So, anyways, you can apply kenpo in grappling, but in my own experience, it works better from the top than the bottom.



Everything works better from the top


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 25, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> ...Well, I popped him on the way in by dropping height zones. It was just enough to make the uppity skinny Brazilian jocularly miffed, and I paid. Dearly. I also didn't manage to get off follow-up shots. It's harder than it looks. And if the grappler is good, in kenpo terms, your options are checked prior to even discovering their possibilities for execution.


Exactly what I'm talking about, Sir. I was always told that when you have to fight assume the guy is just as good or better than you are. Even with the wrestling back ground I had in school I didn't compare to some of my friends yellow belts on the mat. For me, I want to be prepared for all ranges. Thanks for the dialogue.


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## Casey_Sutherland (Oct 25, 2005)

Just a quick concern, do grapplers ever train with strikes like eye gauges or more of a maming attack? I am not too well versed with grappling but in epak there are multitudes of maming and strikes that penetrate with precision i.e eye whips, ripping off someones balls, etc. With that in mind how does kenpo translate to grappling? is there usually an opening for such attacks in an optimum scenario?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2005)

Casey_Sutherland said:
			
		

> Just a quick concern, do grapplers ever train with strikes like eye gauges or more of a maming attack?



Sure, grab some goggles and go nuts.


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## Casey_Sutherland (Oct 25, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Sure, grab some goggles and go nuts.


 
Go _for the_ nuts? lol. But is that a regular part of a grapplers training? Would a grappler say be caught off guard maybe by that kind of attack if they are say purely a grappler and not say a grappler/kenpoist?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2005)

Casey_Sutherland said:
			
		

> Go _for the_ nuts? lol. But is that a regular part of a grapplers training? Would a grappler say be caught off guard maybe by that kind of attack if they are say purely a grappler and not say a grappler/kenpoist?



No, most don't train for it.  Most train for fun, and that means not doing that sort of stuff cause it is not fun.  Some do it occasionally and tend to discover that it doesn't turn the balance at all, the better guy gets the target, the other doesn't.

Then go back to doing things that are more fun.


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## Casey_Sutherland (Oct 25, 2005)

C'mon, a little cup check is fun. Nothing says I got ya like the sound of a hollow cup


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 26, 2005)

I'll agree to a point on the going for groin thing however........ While your grabbing and moving around to get the groin you'd better be careful of moving your limbs around. You just might find how out of position you are with a good grappler. :asian:


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## MJS (Oct 26, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> The guys I shared the drive with (diamond lane from OC to Torrance very important) were both blacks in kenpo cousins...German's TAI, and Kajukenbo. We frequently got together off line to not only refine our ground-fighting, but also to devise kenpo-based approaches to managing weapons and distance with grapplers...sort of a "to beat them, join them". The best we came up with was modifying kenpo weapons and universal movement patterns for offensive application from some of the superior positions. I.E., mount the guy and do first part of five swords when he swings...softens him a bit, making him more pliable for transitions to chokes.


 
Did any of you come up with anything on the defensive end?  

Mike


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## MJS (Oct 26, 2005)

One thing to keep in mind here, is that we can look at this subject from two different points of view:  sport and street.  With the ever increasing 'heat' from politicians, the do not do list seems to grow by the minute, compared to when MMA/NHB events first took place.  Obviously on the street, biting, hits to the eye, etc. are all legal shots.  

Another thing to take into consideration is not playing the other guys game.  If its apparent to me that the person I'm facing is a better puncher, I'm certainly not going to risk trading shots with him.  The Mo Smith and Mark Coleman fight comes to mind.  Smith new enough defensive ground work to completely frustrate Coleman and eventually finish the fight standing.  

So, back to application.  I'm sure that there are many techniques in the system to address the initial entry by the grappler, the clinch, and once on the ground.  

I'm still interested in hearing exactly what techniques people have tried.

Mike


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 26, 2005)

I was successful with some of the limited submissions that I know. To that however I was able to fall back upon the skills that I had from my wrestling days. Although I will point out that I got beaten more times from my buddies students due to being "out of position". Collegiate wrestling positions and JJ grappling positions are slightly different animals. I like to test my skills when my friend alllows me in to play around with his students. We all have a good time. I'm outside the box and they find me fun to grapple with as do I. 

Take off your belt. Find a good JJ school around your area. Pay for a lesson and find out for yourself what works and what doesn't.  :asian:


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## DavidCC (Oct 26, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Take off your belt. Find a good JJ school around your area. Pay for a lesson and find out for yourself what works and what doesn't.  :asian:


 
That's what I did, and it was so much fun!  and I learned a LOT!  When it came to striking, it was like this (without too much detail): "when you are in this position, you can strike effectively.  When you are in that position, you should not.  If being struck in this position, you can transition to that position"  That was about as deep as they got into it.  It's all about position. If you are going to strike then you must still control your base & space or else you leave an opening and get taken out of position.


Kenpo techniques for being grabbed with your back against a wall might be easier to apply from the bottom than others.


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 26, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> UHHHH DUUUHHHH!!!!!
> 
> Wouldn't preach it if I didn't do it.


 
I actually just seen this post. I'm not quite sure how to take it. It appears to be quite sarcastic.

Oh, by the way

How did you do????????????


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 26, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I actually just seen this post. I'm not quite sure how to take it. It appears to be quite sarcastic.
> 
> Oh, by the way
> 
> How did you do????????????


 
A lot of guys try to hide their foibles. To Clyde's credit, he has posted video footage of himself not having a great day against a grappler on his web page. It's actually quite funny how they structured the commentary, and I think it speaks highly of him that he's willing to make it easy for people to find it doing the opposite of suppressing it.  I'm not sure, but I think it's kenpoprofessor.com

Regards,

D.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 26, 2005)

Casey_Sutherland said:
			
		

> Just a quick concern, do grapplers ever train with strikes like eye gauges or more of a maming attack? I am not too well versed with grappling but in epak there are multitudes of maming and strikes that penetrate with precision i.e eye whips, ripping off someones balls, etc. With that in mind how does kenpo translate to grappling? is there usually an opening for such attacks in an optimum scenario?


 
The grapplers know how to rake eyes, too. However, longevity in the activity dictates that this sort of thing be kept to a minimum...how long would you stay with kenpo if you actually scratched the crap out of each others eyes in practice?

Rickson had a great reply for the "what if I...?" guys about the eyes. "Sure...go for my eyes. Maybe you'll get them; maybe you won't. Then, while you're sleeping off my choke-hold, it'll be my turn to scratch your eyes. How much success do you think you'll have at blocking it while you sleep?"

Regards,

Dave

PS -- "What if I poke him in the eye?" has been the karate answer to grapplers since Adam was in the garden. Do you really think that, sonehow, it hasn't been experienced, and contingencies put in place?


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## Casey_Sutherland (Oct 26, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> The grapplers know how to rake eyes, too. However, longevity in the activity dictates that this sort of thing be kept to a minimum...how long would you stay with kenpo if you actually scratched the crap out of each others eyes in practice


 
I agree. Don't take what I am saying the wrong way. But it is a valid argument even if it is one that has been around for a while. It's not just they eyes either. My only question is are grapplers necessarily trained to fight underhandedly or is it usually pure locks, holds and body positioning. I understand that most grapplers suppliment with other arts, yet at what extent do strikes come in


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## Andrew Green (Oct 26, 2005)

Casey_Sutherland said:
			
		

> I agree. Don't take what I am saying the wrong way. But it is a valid argument even if it is one that has been around for a while. It's not just they eyes either. My only question is are grapplers necessarily trained to fight underhandedly or is it usually pure locks, holds and body positioning. I understand that most grapplers suppliment with other arts, yet at what extent do strikes come in



Every grappler I've ever trained with has known a good number of dirty tricks, doesn't matter if it's submission, BJJ or Olympic style.


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## Seabrook (Oct 27, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> A lot of guys try to hide their foibles. To Clyde's credit, he has posted video footage of himself not having a great day against a grappler on his web page. It's actually quite funny how they structured the commentary, and I think it speaks highly of him that he's willing to make it easy for people to find it doing the opposite of suppressing it. I'm not sure, but I think it's kenpoprofessor.com
> 
> Regards,
> 
> D.


 
What's great about Clyde is this: yes, things didn't work as planned against the grappler he posted on his site. But, Clyde has also layed the smack down on many of grapplers, yet those aren't on his site. 

A true warrior in my opinion.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## kenpohack (Oct 27, 2005)

To answer the fundamental question of whether kenpo techniques work on the ground, you must first consider how power is developed in kenpo. Most of our power comes from either rotational momentum, vertical momemtum (drop or marriage of gravity, or horizontal momentum (shuffle). How can you effectively apply these principles without a stable base? I'm no expert at kenpo or bjj, though I study both. I do know that trying to strike upward from a mounted position is suicide (you will certainly find yourself in an armbar if grappling with an experienced opponent). Striking while in someone's guard will likely yield the same result. If you mount someone or are on top in the knee-on-stomach postion, striking can be a viable option. Kenpo wasn't designed for use on the ground. IMHO, use kenpo for what it's best at...standing self-defense. For grappling, cross-train in bjj, after all, it's the best in the world on the ground. Using kenpo for grappling is akin to using a hammer to drive a screw. It may work some of the time, but more often than not it will only cause problems.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Oct 27, 2005)

kenpohack said:
			
		

> To answer the fundamental question of whether kenpo techniques work on the ground, you must first consider how power is developed in kenpo. Most of our power comes from either rotational momentum, vertical momemtum (drop or marriage of gravity, or horizontal momentum (shuffle). How can you effectively apply these principles without a stable base? I'm no expert at kenpo or bjj, though I study both. I do know that trying to strike upward from a mounted position is suicide (you will certainly find yourself in an armbar if grappling with an experienced opponent). Striking while in someone's guard will likely yield the same result. If you mount someone or are on top in the knee-on-stomach postion, striking can be a viable option. Kenpo wasn't designed for use on the ground. IMHO, use kenpo for what it's best at...standing self-defense. For grappling, cross-train in bjj, after all, it's the best in the world on the ground. Using kenpo for grappling is akin to using a hammer to drive a screw. It may work some of the time, but more often than not it will only cause problems.


 
I noticed on your profile it says you're a Kenpo Orange belt, is this correct?   If so, you have no business commenting on a system you know so very little about, you're not an expert as you so aptly pronounced.

DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Oct 27, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> A lot of guys try to hide their foibles. To Clyde's credit, he has posted video footage of himself not having a great day against a grappler on his web page. It's actually quite funny how they structured the commentary, and I think it speaks highly of him that he's willing to make it easy for people to find it doing the opposite of suppressing it. I'm not sure, but I think it's kenpoprofessor.com
> 
> Regards,
> 
> D.


 
Hide foibles, it wasn't a foible, and in fact, it was a great day.   I had already tapped a few of the advanced students and was grappling the instructor (a 6th JJJ).    I finally ran out of gas and tapped out after  almost 2 hours of going at it standup and groundwork, and what is shown is the last few minutes of the event.   You should really get your information straight before posting Dave.

DarK LorD


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## MJS (Oct 28, 2005)

kenpohack said:
			
		

> To answer the fundamental question of whether kenpo techniques work on the ground, you must first consider how power is developed in kenpo. Most of our power comes from either rotational momentum, vertical momemtum (drop or marriage of gravity, or horizontal momentum (shuffle). How can you effectively apply these principles without a stable base? I'm no expert at kenpo or bjj, though I study both. I do know that trying to strike upward from a mounted position is suicide (you will certainly find yourself in an armbar if grappling with an experienced opponent). Striking while in someone's guard will likely yield the same result. If you mount someone or are on top in the knee-on-stomach postion, striking can be a viable option. Kenpo wasn't designed for use on the ground. IMHO, use kenpo for what it's best at...standing self-defense. For grappling, cross-train in bjj, after all, it's the best in the world on the ground. Using kenpo for grappling is akin to using a hammer to drive a screw. It may work some of the time, but more often than not it will only cause problems.


 
If we go back to my initial post I had said:



> Its often said that Kenpo is not effective while on the ground. Not too long ago I had a chat with someone regarding applications of Kenpo techniques while grappling.* I decided to apply some ideas/concepts *while my training partner had me in the mounted position. Surprisingly, there were a number of them* in which parts could be applied.* Delayed Sword, Crossing Talon and Hooking Wings were a few that I found.
> 
> Has anyone else attempted the use of the techniques while on the ground?
> 
> Mike


 
Slight mods. will need to be made.  As for the cross training, or as Clyde likes to call it, cross referencing ... those are both options as well.  Of  course, having someone who can guide you along and aid in this discovery is also very important.  There are certain people here, who can attest to the fact that I had quite an issue with the grappling concept.  Fortunately I came across someone who showed me the light!

Mike


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