# are wheelguns 100% reliable??



## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Brand/type loyalty is great with firearms but to make the statement revolvers are MORE reliable than semi-autos is just not realistic.
 In 40 + years of serious shooting I have observed the following problems not always the weapons "fault" but which could lead to rather dire consequences in a life or death situation...

These have all been personally observed at one time or another.

To 2nd post on topic


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

1. Failure to fire due to debris in the following areas:
Hammer/firing pin nose
2. Failure to fire due to improper closure of cylinder latch due to debris.
3. Failure to fire due to bent ejector rod/
4. Failure to COMPLETELY eject empty brass via ejectors star riding over cartridge rim/ ejector rod TOO SHORT to completely eject empty casings.
5. Failure of cylinder to close based on as little as two unburnt grains of powder between the cylinder recess and inside face of ejector star.
6.Failure to fire based on use of improper lubricants which either froze in cold weather, or gummed up over time binding internal mechanism (WD-40 is the DEFINATIVE example of what NOT to use)
7. Failure of loaded cartridges to fully seat or extract.
8. Failure to load based on faulty grip design interferring with loading.
9. Failure to fire due to binding of cylinder by clothing ( shooting from inside of pockets)

All for now but food for thought.
As previously stated I have personally winessed these on seperate occasions at the range,and on duty.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Whoops forgot failure of cylinder to close because ejector rod worked loose by a couple .00x" and the being slammed shut locking the mechanism........


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## harold (Jul 3, 2010)

Anything built by man can break! Periodic maintenance is a must.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 3, 2010)

Not to mention good 'ol wear on parts that need replacing...


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## Haakon (Jul 3, 2010)

Stick Dummy said:


> 1. Failure to fire due to debris in the following areas:
> Hammer/firing pin nose
> 2. Failure to fire due to improper closure of cylinder latch due to debris.
> 3. Failure to fire due to bent ejector rod/
> ...



Most of those happen to autos too, no firearm is 100% reliable. I've had and seen more feed or ejection problems with autos than I have had problems with revolvers. The term "jamomatic" wasn't just made up out of whole cloth.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Yep that's why virtually every serious military and LE organization carries autos.

FYI- "Jammamatic" was originally applied to the Steyr GB pistol as reviewed by Mr. Chuck Taylor in SOF. I believe there was even a pix of him THROWING the pistol over the range backstop. LOL poor magazine engineering in the quest for more teeny boolets.


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## Haakon (Jul 3, 2010)

Most military orgs issue autos because they handle abuse better than revolvers, reload faster and hold more rounds, not because they're inherently more reliable.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

ROTFLMAO!!

Yes, what you just said EXACTLY!!


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

ROTFLMAO!!

Yes, what you just said EXACTLY!!


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## Haakon (Jul 3, 2010)

Whatever, keep holding on to your belief that autos are superior. I'll keep shooting my thus far 100% reliable revolvers that never stovepipe or feed jam, and are reliable with anything that fits in the chamber from 300fps to 1,500 fps, something that can't be said of autos. Both have strengths, neither has an advantage in reliability with quality models.

Why exactly was the 'tap/rack/bang' drill made up? Oh yeah, because autos have problems too.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Both are designs are made by humans and as such, are subject to failure if not taken care of.

Thing is, a revolver has to suffer that wearing or breakage of parts before it malfunctions for the most part.( except for the casing trapped under the star).

An auto can still be in perfect, off the shelf condition and *still* fail to feed, fail to extract or stovepipe. Revolvers have no mag springs and are not ammo sensitive.

I grant you that nowadays the top name autos are well enough made that reliability approaches revolvers in a way that 20-30 years ago would not have been possible, but if you tale *all* current production revolvers( excluding S&W) and *all* current production autos, the revolvers still have the edge and always will.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

ANDY!!! I wondered when you would jump in!!!

I have in my possession a Kimber Custom Classic that has NEVER malfunctioned, and owned a Rem- Rand M1911A1 that NEVER malfunctioned.

Use what works for ya, keep it clean, and shoot the hell out of it!

But don't tell someone with more rounds down range fairy tale stories without credible substantiation outside of gun magazines and urban legend.

I believe my current life total is around 225,000 in that 40 years. Maybe more.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Fair enough, sir.

I apologize for not having realized that I was apparently spouting off fairy tale stories without credible substantiation outside of gun magazines (which I don't read). Do enjoy the rest of your day. :asian:


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Andy, don't get mad and run away...

Continue to discuss the topic at hand.

You have made a number of very valuable points that are truths.

You take your wheelgunning seriously enough to seek out a true Master of the snubbie.

Just don't confuse things.

Tap-Slap- Rack is a immediate action drill practiced in case of malfunction.
If it were truly a massive problem semi's would not have the popularity they have today.

Like you and others said, ANYTHING mechanical can fail and if your life of that of others is on the line- DEAL WITH IT ASAP!!

More in a moment


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

As I was saying, and please don't get me wrong here.

Wheelguns are not 100% reliable, exclude modern S&W revolvers?? Nope that is attempting to negate my premise in the first place.

I do have and own some wheelies. For instance a F-A .454 casull.

I will state their is NO FINER machined handgun available period. It vastly surpasses even the Golden Era hand fitted Colt and S&W's.

Here is where people shout IT'S an SINGLE ACTION and too slow for self defense use.

Sure if you say so, but reality and a hell of a lot of people have survived terminal hostilities using one will say otherwise.

What I am saying is don't follow a DOGMA and learn to use everything well.

I have literally worn out both wheelguns and autos alike. An auto will normally continue to work at high round count whereas a wheelie tends to go out of time and begin to shave slugs due to design nature.


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## Archangel M (Jul 3, 2010)

Just to throw some fuel on the fire.

Revolver triggers suck.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Did I forget that??? LOL

Exceptions to the rule: Most older Colt Pythons, older S&W's are joys in both modes compared to a 1980's S&W auto.

Only O.O.B. Da auto that comes close is early CZ-75's and they can even surpass a tuned Python.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

I have to exclude modern( post-2003) S&W revolvers due to the suicide lock now installed on all of them since that date with no choice.

This wouldn't be a problem if the lock were well enough designed so as not to malfunction under recoil.

Some genius designed the lock to rotate counterclockwise to engage.

The gun is stupid. It doesn't know if that's a key going counterclockwise, or if it's clockwise recoil that activated it, it just knows to lock up.

S&W flatly denies that this is a problem at all because it is in their business interests to do so, and because the S&W parent company that makes the locks hath decreed that they are not going away.

I know better.
 I called up the Firing Line in neighboring New Hampshire. It's a range where you rent guns before you buy them. I asked them point blank how much trouble had the locks given them. They couldn't give me a number because they'd lost count.

I then had an employee tell me that a S&W rep had come in with all these snubbies and other revolvers with new, improved suicide locks that WOULDN'T fail, and the guy who owned the place said, Okay, you let me put 10,000 rounds through one and we'll see if it fails". The rep packed 'em up and left.

And so I have to exclude that particular line since I've been harping on all along about mechanical simplicity, and here are these revolvers with an extra built in access denial mechanism that is *known* to malfunction. To me, it doesn't matter if it's a 1% chance, I must treat it as if it's a 100% chance. So here, they've basically just nullified the one reason people still buy revolvers anymore.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Andy,

Duly noted, and agree with.

Corperate negligence at its peak. Think of all the "new" snubbies being put into ankle holsters by LEO's who do not know better.

It saddens me to think of the results......


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## Archangel M (Jul 3, 2010)

I would never go DA Auto these days (unless I purchased a Para Ordinance LDA...sweet). I'm a striker fired auto guy from now on.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Nothin wrong there brother.

Experiencing a hand crafted CZ is like driving a Bentley. WOW, but will the kids spill soda on the seats.....


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

It took a little getting used to, but i'm fine with my SIG P220 in DAO mode, and will do it on all future SIGS until either I move to where I can buy the DAK model or it gets on the MA roster list.

Some folks love the strikers, I like to have that visual index of the hammer movingin the event that under adrenaline stress I can't feel my finger as to whether it's on the trigger or not.

( Actually another reason I like revolvers too).

Well, I have an auto AND a couple revolvers, so I figure I'm covered whether or not St. Peter's a Jeff Cooper fan or a Bill Jordan fan


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## Archangel M (Jul 3, 2010)

Eh..thats why you train to keep the booger hook off the trigger till you are ready to fire. I use AR's and SG's too. They have no external hammers.

Im also of the opinion that you should stick to a trigger type and be good with it. Why confuse things by carrying a different trigger type every other day?


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> I would never go DA Auto these days (unless I purchased a Para Ordinance LDA...sweet). I'm a striker fired auto guy from now on.


 
Waiting list is insane though since they moved the whole operation from Canada to North Carolina( That's actually what led me to my SIG was I couldn't get the fullsize single stack LDA for like 8 months)


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Eh..thats why you train to keep the booger hook off the trigger till you are ready to fire.


 
Always, *always* do. But the thing to remember is in many cases, in a vasoconstricted state it sometimes happens subconsciously that the finger finds its way there anyway. It just happens I prefer a visible warning sign is all.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Back to revolvers though:

I find that in the fullsize, belt-holster "service" guns I do prefer an auto to a revolver, but off the belt in a pocket or ankle rig I do still prefer a snubby. Pockets have grit or lint, and ankles are near enough to the ground to kick up sand, dirt, and so on. I find revolvers tend to tolerate being dirty more than autos once you get down to pocket sized mechanisms.

Also-where pocket pistols are concerned, a pocket auto might offer me a slimmer profile in the pocket/ankle, might offer me one or two more rounds in a small caliber, but won't offer me as much reliability ( again the pocket pistols don't seem IME to have matched the reliability of their fullsize brothers) won't offer me nearly as much punch (this situation is changing slightly since the Kahr PM9 and the Rohrbaugh R9 but not enough to sway me from my model 60).


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Does "vasoconstricted" mean "Skeert"?

Jst a mild case of Blaberry tachy psyche goings ons.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Stick Dummy said:


> Does "vasoconstricted" mean "Skeert"?
> 
> Jst a mild case of Blaberry tachy psyche goings ons.


 
It's the thousand dollar way of referring to the effect under an adrenaline dump of blood leaving the extremities and going toward the vital organs leaving a sensation of numbness in the fingers and a corresponding drop in fine motor skill.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Where I come from that is "skeert to death" in more words.

Practice and experience help to control such inherent traits.

Andy, forgot you had SIG in senior moment.

My uniform BDU's have to be bloused, so no ankle weights,crotch, tummy or shoulder carry for B-U.

My partner carries at C-A undercover and I LOVE to keep shooting my G-27 soon to be replaced with Kimber Mini something while he is reloading


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Being able to wear them as civilian dress, I cut the drawstring out of all my BDU bottoms so as to use them like slacks.

I just figure since during the summer when I don't want to bother with a concealing garment for a belt or shoulder rig, it ends up being a pocket snubby and an ankle snubby( for when seated and can't draw from pocket) and so it was in my best interest to maximize what skills I could for the ones that actually tended to come with me most of the time.

However this Nov. I'll be up at SIG-Sauer academy taking their "Defensive Knife and Pistol" class with either my P220 or if I have a P239 by then, with that.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Once you get a P-239 and go through class betcha your "tastes" change.

Flat and tight is where its at!!!


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Well I expect my tastes in a belt gun will change, assuming the grip isn't too small for my hands to get at quick ( i got gorilla mitts and the fullsize P220 was just right , my hand almost covers it up, was actually why I chose it over the wider P226), but even the p239 isn't a pocket or ankle gun. 

(Figure on getting a .40 S&W model and a .357 SIG barrel, and the P220 may or may not stay on and pull bedside duty)


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

HUH???

Just looked at a pix and a P-239 ain't much bigger than a 640?

My BB won't let me attach image too stupid to work it right.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Let me go look.......


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

S&W 640

Overall height: 4 1/4 inch
Overall length: 6.56 inch
Barrel length : 2 1/8 inch
Weight empty: 23 ounces

SIG P239

Overall height: 5.1 inch
Overall length: 6.6 inch
Barrel length: 3.6 inch
Weight empty with mag: 29 1/2 ounces

So there is a bit more weight to consider and the grip is eough longer to cause a problem in some pockets. ( I HAVE seen Desantis offer a pocket rig FOR this gun, so I guess it isn't impossible but it won't be as easy as with the J frame)


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Get bigger pockets! The Disco pants won't work with ANYTHING.

Try Propper brand pants ( 5:11 style) if you HAVE to Mae West it.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

For this gun, I'd do an IWB rig at the belt and it's enough smaller than my P220 that even an untucked T shirt would settle the matter.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Whoops Mae West old film star kinda like Bette Midler with REAL attitude "Is that a pistol in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2010)

Andy,

Now repeat after me:

"I have found semi-auto salvation"

"I have found semi-auto salvation"

I have chosen the path to true enlightenment


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 3, 2010)

Stick Dummy said:


> Brand/type loyalty is great with firearms but to make the statement revolvers are MORE reliable than semi-autos is just not realistic.
> In 40 + years of serious shooting I have observed the following problems not always the weapons "fault" but which could lead to rather dire consequences in a life or death situation...
> 
> These have all been personally observed at one time or another.
> ...


 
Revolvers are by no means 100% reliable.......a number of issues can occur with revolvers.  I was putting on a CCW class a couple months back and we were using a Colt Trooper III .22 caliber revolver for qualification.

The screw that holds the cylinder in had worked it's way loss, and the cylinder would not close completely.  We had to examine it for several minutes to figure out what the problem was.  Once we did, we simply tightened it in, and it worked fine.  But such a malfunction in the middle of a gun fight would put the gun out of use.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 3, 2010)

Stick Dummy said:


> Andy,
> 
> Now repeat after me:
> 
> ...


 

Remember--I never DIDn't like autos, in fact I used to *be* one of those who thought revolvers were dead. This last weekend's course showed me how wrong I was and the several real advantages that still exist at least with the snubby( I think the full size models will come out mostly during hunting and competitionbut as far as carry/defense the "mainstay" revolver has gravitated to, and is likely to stay, strictly the snub)

I still keep my SIG bedside ready.

However I *did* choose the path to true enlightenment( to book the appropriate classes and become as expert as I can with BOTH).


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## KenpoTex (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm not going to jump into this debate (since anyone with a brain knows that the Glock 19 is the epitome of the fighting handgun )

I just wanted to point out that S&W _does_ offer new-production J's _without_ the lock.  The 442 I bought early this year does not have it.  I believe they also offer the "bodyguard-style" J (438/638?) without the lock.


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## Ceicei (Jul 4, 2010)

I have both, a revolver and a semi-auto. 

I love my revolver for its reliability--never had problems with ammo in it--it hasn't jammed once since I owned it (so far, but it is, after all mechanical so some day there may be a failure, but careful maintenance should help reduce that).  I love my semi-auto also for its ease [point and shoot] and the fact it can hold more ammo. It does jam sometimes. Many times I carry both guns with me at the same time. I always go to the range to practice with both to keep my mind used to handling them.

- Ceicei


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 4, 2010)

KenpoTex said:


> I'm not going to jump into this debate (since anyone with a brain knows that the Glock 19 is the epitome of the fighting handgun )
> 
> I just wanted to point out that S&W _does_ offer new-production J's _without_ the lock. The 442 I bought early this year does not have it. I believe they also offer the "bodyguard-style" J (438/638?) without the lock.


 

A fluke, I'm afraid, there was one year they outsourced the frames to a company that didn't drill the lock holes, and they said the hell with it , just ship 'em, then ballyhooed a fake "Limited edition" release.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 4, 2010)

huh...interesting, and here I thought they may have actually listened to their customers and released a few that didn't have that idiotic lock.  Oh well, I stand corrected.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 4, 2010)

Just goes to show even a company which built its reputation of wheelguns cannot make them in todays high tech society.....

Will Shakespeare had it right with his lawyer quote....


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## Grenadier (Jul 4, 2010)

Revolvers offer a greater margin of error to those who might have problems, such as weak wrists, or those who wish to use underpowered ammunition.  There are some folks who simply cannot rack the slide of a semiauto, due to various factors.  

Furthermore, the revolver also offers a bit more margin of error when it comes to bad ammunition, especially when primers might be suspect, that all you have to do is pull the trigger again.  

On the other hand, my Glocks have never failed to feed or fire, when using factory loads, or any of my handloads that were within specs, even my 9mm 147 grainers flying out at 1150 fps (can be done with VV 3N38).


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 4, 2010)

Praise be to Vita- Vuori powders!!

"Sissy wristing" an auto is probably the #1 cause of all auto failure to feed or eject.

Operator error best cleaned up through proper training. Other than the Macho-Men of the range. They are beyond redemption.

Racking a slide also can be corrected most of the time. 

Back In The Day those in the know could do so with either hand, and reload the same way.

Ahh reinventing the wheel with rounded corners LOL


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 4, 2010)

I'd just like to note how sad it is that Colt stopped making their double action revolvers.

They had a beautiful idea based on their Agent and Detective special, which was a Stainless snubby called the Magnum Carry, all steel, FULL-STROKE ejector rod, .357, not much bigger than a J frame and still had the sixth round.

And then just as they had finally got the concept right they stopped making it.

And it occurs to me that given S&W's current sales seppuku over the frame locks, that Colt would have to be insane not to resurrect this model even if no others.........


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 4, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> Revolvers offer a greater margin of error to those who might have problems, such as weak wrists, or those who wish to use underpowered ammunition.  There are some folks who simply cannot rack the slide of a semiauto, due to various factors.
> 
> Furthermore, the revolver also offers a bit more margin of error when it comes to bad ammunition, especially when primers might be suspect, that all you have to do is pull the trigger again.
> 
> On the other hand, my Glocks have never failed to feed or fire, when using factory loads, or any of my handloads that were within specs, even my 9mm 147 grainers flying out at 1150 fps (can be done with VV 3N38).



I have to say after thousands of rounds my Glocks have never failed to feed or fire as well!  Heck we even torture tested a friend of mines Glock and it still performed fantastic.  That said my back up firearm is a small snubby revolver.  I particularly went this way because it is so easily concealed compared to any auto.  Just my 02.


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## Hudson69 (Jul 6, 2010)

This is a "loaded" question and seems to be trying to "fire" up the owners of either weapon system.

I own both revolvers and autos and neither are 100%.

My .02 only.


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## Chat Noir (Jul 6, 2010)

Hudson69 said:


> This is a "loaded" question and seems to be trying to "fire" up the owners of either weapon system.
> 
> I own both revolvers and autos and neither are 100%.
> 
> My .02 only.



Same here - agreed....


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 6, 2010)

LOL here come the smurfs trying to make belt points with nothing to add

Some things never change.......


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## Archangel M (Jul 6, 2010)

My Glocks (and any other weapon I have used) have all "failed to fire/feed" at one time or another. If you haven't had a malfunction you haven't been training enough. Fortunately 99% of the time it's just a matter of TAP RACK BANG to correct it.


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## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> My Glocks (and any other weapon I have used) have all "failed to fire/feed" at one time or another. If you haven't had a malfunction you haven't been training enough. Fortunately 99% of the time it's just a matter of TAP RACK BANG to correct it.


I agree.  Any auto will occasionally malfunction.  Biggest cause with Glocks is limp wristing the gun, closely followed by anticipating and exaggerating the follow through from the recoil.  Both are really the same: the energy that the gun needs to run the slide back and eject the round, feeding the next, needs to be "steered" into the slide, not absorbed in your body/motion.  After that, you start getting into the "stuff happens" malfunctions, like one magazine of mine that's a range mag only because it malfunctions.  Don't know if something's off in the follower, or in the spring, or what because nothing is obviously wrong...  

Revolvers malfunction less, and when they do -- it's typically an indication that the gun is now a paperweight.  As long as the cylinder turns, and a live round falls under the hammer -- the gun's going to go BANG when the hammer falls.


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 6, 2010)

I find the revolver is best in two areas now days.

1) As a backup gun. Way to many pocket autos, having small parts, fail to function after being carried for long periods in such places as pockets, ankle holsters, belly bands, etc... yet the revolver tends to be more tolerant of such as lint and dirt that accumulates in such places.

2) As a sentinel. That is a handgun kept loaded in the house, business, or car for long periods of time. Because no springs are compressed and even a dry revolver has no problem cycling, they tend to work very well in this regard. And example would be my Speed Six .38, stoked with Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWSHPs that is right now within arms reach of me at this desk. Its been there for years! Being stainless and a bit of grease in the right places, I have no doubt if it lays here for 50 years, it still would fire all six shots on demand.

Now to address the question of reliability. True if you do not clean the weapon after long shooting sessions, the simi-auto, in such forms as the Glock, win hands down. They can get caked with mud and they will just keep on going. I know this because at the Glock .vs. 1911 Matches at McKinney, Texas, the Glocks, especially the Glock 17, when 1000 rounds without any cleaning. Not just one gun, but tens of Glock 17s and 19s just kept going! Even the 1911s, with a few exceptions, did not go 1000 rounds!

And as a result, as a military combat weapon or one used where the possibility of multiple assailants, they are miles ahead of the revolver.

BUT, most simi-autos have a problem if dry, that is no oil to lubricate. And thus if you fail to maintain the simi-auto with some lubrication, they can fail. 

Hence as a sentinel or backup the revolver has its place.

Deaf


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## Grenadier (Jul 12, 2010)

The revolver also has an advantage, that it's a proven design in the smaller packages, too.  There are many occasions where you want to carry a respectable caliber, but don't have much of a choice, other than pocket carry.  In these cases, it's really hard to beat a J-frame sized revolver, stoked with Speer's excellent short barrel Gold Dot hollowpoints.  



On another note, I've had good luck with Dri Film's "Superlube" lubricant.  It's Teflon, solubilized in hexanes, and leaves a slick, dry film behind that doesn't attract dirt.  

The coating stays on when not in use.  I sprayed down a Glock 17 about 12 months ago, and haven't shot it since, and the Teflon is still on the areas it had been applied.


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