# New to MA, Question about a school/instructor



## Mindstorm (May 4, 2008)

Hello there,

    I've never taken an MA in my life outside of a self defense course when I was little.  That was as close to a "belt mill" as it gets as we all got yellow belts after a total of about 16 classes, and everybody got them no matter what.  I realize that there are some notable "McDojo" type schools in my area and when looking for something to practice I just want to check around and see if there's any words of caution about a particular school or instructor.  I've looked at taking BJJ, Small circle Jiu Jitsu, Karate, or Ninjutsu (as far as researching and looking up and investigating local schools), but I liked the description of the basic training concepts and methods behind Wing Chun and would like to try it out.

This is my local school:  http://www.rduwingchun.com/

The pricing on the site looks out of date (says to apply before April 1st, 2006 to get the special pricing :lol: ), so I'm going to contact them about that.  I went back through the forum records and saw that the lineage from Duncan Leung is generally well-respected and that he trains his students well, but saw nothing about my local school or the local sifu James Widmar.  I was just slightly worried by the first result that pops up in google when searching for results about this school: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.martial-arts/2006-06/msg06065.html

It sounds like this student might've had a slight 'tude going in there, so I wasn't sure whether to be concerned based off of that review alone.  I understand that the local school probably has a catchy sales pitch mostly because Wing Chun isn't big around here as far as I know (most schools I see are TKD) and they want to draw potential students.  I'm just wondering if anybody here has trained under James Widmar or has heard anything about this school besides the two reviews I was able to find on the internet (the other one was a 5 star review of the place, appreciative of the simplicity and straightforwardness of Wing Chun I think).

I don't see any McDojo (or should it be McTemple in this case?) red flags about this place like mandatory contracts or tons of bad reviews, and their pricing would seem reasonable all things considered.

So hello, thank you, and I appreciate any help/guidance you all can give me!  I'll be picking SOMETHING to start training in soon and this is my current lead.  

PS:  I apologize for being so wordy, it's a bad habit I'm developing from writing so many papers while in college, haha.


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## jks9199 (May 4, 2008)

Mindstorm said:


> Hello there,
> 
> I've never taken an MA in my life outside of a self defense course when I was little.  That was as close to a "belt mill" as it gets as we all got yellow belts after a total of about 16 classes, and everybody got them no matter what.  I realize that there are some notable "McDojo" type schools in my area and when looking for something to practice I just want to check around and see if there's any words of caution about a particular school or instructor.  I've looked at taking BJJ, Small circle Jiu Jitsu, Karate, or Ninjutsu (as far as researching and looking up and investigating local schools), but I liked the description of the basic training concepts and methods behind Wing Chun and would like to try it out.
> 
> ...


Rather than worrying too much about what's on the web about a style or school...  Go see for yourself.  Ask to observe a class and speak with the instructors.  Chat with some of the students before or after the class.  See what you think of them, and if they're folks you want to be spending time with.

Think back to applying for college; you didn't just pick a school because it seemed convenient and nobody complained much about it.  You went there, and talked to people, took tours of the campus, assessed the costs, considered the majors offered...  and made the choice that seemed best for you at the time, right?  Put the same sort of effort into choosing a martial arts school.  Decide what you want out of the martial arts (exercise?  self defense?  esthetics?  spiritual development? something else?), and look at the schools in light of your goals.  Look at them to see if they're somewhere you want to invest time and money, and if they'll meet your needs.

Lots of people get bogged down in arguments over lineage or titles or certificates...  There're lots of very good schools without fancy certificates or impressive sounding lineages.  There are some very bad schools with fancy certificates and impressive lineages.  And neither the presence or lack of lineage has anything to do with whether the guy you're looking at will be a good teacher, or a good teacher for you.


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## Mindstorm (May 4, 2008)

Haha, I suppose that's more why I'm just wondering whether anybody here has experience with this instructor.  I will be checking it out as long as pricing seems fair once I've sorted out my summer job options.

I have been looking to see what I want to get out of my martial art, and of course many of them appeal to me.  I appreciate your commentary about the choice process and have to agree somewhat with your comparison to college (though to be honest I only applied to one college, as I knew it met my requirements, not to put a damper on that list of considerations, hehe).  It's a whole new world of education for me being that I never have been active in any sort of physical anything (quite seriously), but I've always been willing to give something a try.

I'm approaching MA with an open mind, and unless I'm outright turned off by a particular school or instructor I will likely stay there until life demands I go somewhere else.    I've tried to avoid all the pro-this and anti-that arguments and commentary I've seen, which is why I'm wondering if the concerns in that review I posted are due to "political bias" or if there are actual warning signs there to look out for (as this will be a sizeable monetary commitment for me!).

I appreciate your quick reply and will post back here with any updates from the school or about my first day there (assuming I can find this thread 2-3 weeks from now, haha).

*Edit:*  Hey I just got a reply back and their pricing is still that "promo" rate and he seems like a straightforward guy.  I'm going to go ahead and make this my unofficial "newbie adventures" thread and hope to bump this soon with updates from the introductory session they have.  Here's to hoping for some personal success in martial arts and all that comes with it.   (Thanks to you guys for having such a good resource here, without this website I wouldn't be able to have put together half the info I have right now.)


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## dungeonworks (May 5, 2008)

Welcome to the forum Mindstorm. :cheers:

AS with any school in any style, in my humble opinion you will need to meet the instructor yourself.  People post things on the net with good and not so good intentions.  I agree, the guy sounded like he was already judging Wing Chun before he got there.  You are doing the right thing by seeing for yourself.  Some guys like Tae Kwon Do or Karate or Brazilian Jiujitsu and there are just as many that dislike each style as well.  It all boils down to what YOU want and how well you jive with the school.  I suggest looking more at the instructor and school rather than style itself since you aren't looking for a style in particular and beginning fresh for the most part.

For example, I have studied Tae Kwon Do, Koei-Kan-Karate-Do, and ameture kickboxed for a few years.  Also, I played at a local MMA club for a while.  I dabbled in Jeet Kune Do, Modern Arnis, and am presently 2-3 months into my Wing Chun training.  I like(liked) them all and am really motivated by Wing Chun.  I just love this stuff.  It fills the gaps that my Karate and TKD didn't cover and does things in an entirely different way.  It is very direct and to the point and uses a lot of drills in the practitioners development.  I learn something new each class and am starting to see how things tie together in it.  It is not an artform you will master quickly and without consistent training.  I also was very impressed with my brief time in Modern Arnis.  Aside a scheduling conflict, I would have never left.  I really liked the versatility of this are as it encompassed weapon and empty hand fighting and has EXCELLENT wrist locks.  I liked Tae Kwon Do for the kicks and mobility.  I liked Koei-Kan for the hard nosed contact oriented training and spent the most time in this system.  It had good takedowns, some grappling, and plenty of striking.  JKD was well rounded in everything and fun to do.  MMA was tough and physically challenging as was the kickboxing.  The common denominator in all of what I wrote?  I gelled well with the people and most importantly the instructors I have had.  I have respect for all the people I trained with and would train with any of them again if the time came I wanted to revisit them because they were simply good people knowledgeable in their respective arts and that is the most important thing.

My advice is to visit each school.  Most have a trial period where you can train a few classes or even the first month for free.  Visit all the schools you mentioned and trust your gut feeling on which one you feel you fit the most....not just the instructors but the class members as well since you will be training and learning from them as well.

Good luck!

Gary

PS

I will say that I believe if you start in Wing Chun, most other martial arts you may take in the future will come easier.  Just my opinion of course.


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## BlueVino (May 6, 2008)

One observation to add to the excellent advice already given, from the "School Info" page of the site:It is a non-commercial school  but yet is fully equipped. Class sizes are medium, and senior students to  junior ratio is near 1 
to 1.​In my experience and opinion:
Non-commercial is good. I suspect that the students and instructors are there because they want to be, not because they're trying to get rich.

The school might have a difficult time retaining students; the senior students are likely a core of dedicated martial artists, with junior students rolling in and out. I've seen this happen in a couple of great schools. It turns out that studying the martial arts is hard work when you're dedicated to it... 

Cheers,
Trueblood


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## brocklee (May 8, 2008)

Trueblood said:


> One observation to add to the excellent advice already given, from the "School Info" page of the site:It is a non-commercial school  but yet is fully equipped. Class sizes are medium, and senior students to  junior ratio is near 1
> to 1.​In my experience and opinion:
> Non-commercial is good. I suspect that the students and instructors are there because they want to be, not because they're trying to get rich.
> 
> ...



Very true.  I was looking at some of the pics and that's one of the nicest kwoons i've ever seen.  I hope those are the senior students in the pics because they appear to lean back which actually shows a lack of center.  The sifu's structure looks correct though, so that could be a good thing.


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## OnlyAnEgg (May 8, 2008)

Welcome to Martial Talk!


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## tenth1 (May 9, 2008)

welcome to martial talk, it does not matter which style you choose just as long as you enjoy the training and you get what you want from it, good luck in your selection!!


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## mutantwc (May 20, 2008)

Mindstorm,

I hope you decided to sign up.  I never did the demo with Sifu Widmar, I just walked in and signed up.  I had the experience of meeting my (now) Sigong - Brian Edwards about 12 years ago and decided at that point I would eventually make the time to study/practice Wing Chun.

Ending up in Raleigh it was only natural that I went to the RDU Wing Chun school.  I've been a new student there since February and I absolutely love it.

Sifu Widmar is a fairly no nonsense guy and very straight forward, as you've found.  I think he has a pretty good sense of humor too, but it's obviously situational and can depend on your own personality.

The other guys that I've met and train with there are also great.  They are very knowledgeable and none of them have the attitude of "my <insert specific move> is awesome."  They have the belief that they are still far from perfect and can always be better.

I've personally posed many questions about techniques we are working on:
-what would you do...if?
-why would you do <this> and not <that>?
-etc.

It is a very physical martial art in both training and conditioning.  If you haven't signed up yet, be prepared to work your butt off.

(Edit) As with anything in life if the style/school/instructor doesn't jive with what you want or your personality then it may not be for you.  At any rate...
If there are any questions I can answer for you with a new student perspective let me know.

Cheers,
wcmutant
(Ryan)


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## KamonGuy2 (May 21, 2008)

Just wanted to add my two cents about 'commercial schools'

Commercial schools can be extremely good for martial arts

I have trained in both commercial and non-commerical wing chun schools

Certainly there are McDojos where students are trained in factory lines and this way of training is not always good

However, at Kamon, which may be considered a commercial school, instructors do care very much about their students and won't grade them unless they are ready. 

From commercial schools you will find a bigger community, meaning a much wider exchange of ideas

Small martial art gyms that I have been to, sometimes have had very closed minded ideas about certain topics

One school that I trained at wouldn't even mention other martial arts!!

It is also good to feel part of a bigger family

Just something to think about when choosing your school - don't get put off by bigger classes


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## Mindstorm (Jun 4, 2008)

Hey, good to see somebody from the school on here!  Thanks for your feedback.  I might consider just going in and signing up one night, but I might also just stop by for the free demo lesson anyway.

I'm still working on sorting out the funding for all this, as the total cost to me will be a big chunk of my college budget.  Turns out the research facility near where I live didn't win the government grant that would've gotten me a job, so I'm still hunting.  I've got a degree now so it shouldn't be too bad.

Hopefully I can post another update on here in a couple weeks to the effect of "MAN THIS IS SO AWESOME!" 

Thanks again everybody.


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## mook jong man (Jun 4, 2008)

hi at the wing chun school i was at we were told that you could judge the quality of wing chun being taught by seeing if it adhered to these principles. they are simplicity, directness, economy of movement, minimum use of brute strength and practicality if that fits with what is being taught then go for it and sign up.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 6, 2008)

Mindstorm said:


> Hey, good to see somebody from the school on here! Thanks for your feedback. I might consider just going in and signing up one night, but I might also just stop by for the free demo lesson anyway.
> 
> I'm still working on sorting out the funding for all this, as the total cost to me will be a big chunk of my college budget. Turns out the research facility near where I live didn't win the government grant that would've gotten me a job, so I'm still hunting. I've got a degree now so it shouldn't be too bad.
> 
> ...


 
Funding? How much is it costing you? 
Sounds like its a lot


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## Mindstorm (Jun 24, 2008)

^ I have no income and no money right now, and while the school isn't that expensive, the school + gas to drive out there will run around $150-200/month.  It's a lot of money for me because I'm a student (which means you can't earn that much during the semester unless you want to fail out of school) and because I just burned up all my savings recovering from a myriad of health problems in the last year.

Picking up a martial art was part of my plan to get myself into more conditioned shape to improve my mental focus, my physical wellbeing, and my ability to defend myself (which is also becoming more of a concern in my area, unfortunately!).  The only reason it costs so much is because I was gifted an inefficient car and the school is a 20 mile drive from here (it costs me $10 per round trip to the school, I'll go about 3 times a week, 4 weeks in a month, that makes $120/mo).

The school itself is actually quite reasonably priced considering the location and amenities the place has, it's just that you can't get to anything in this town without driving pretty far to get there.   Unfortunately, still don't have a job yet, but have a few leads and am looking for more.  Most engineering firms around here already hired their summer & fall help, so I've got slim pickings for a decent paying job right now.  Hopefully I'll have better news to provide in a couple of weeks.


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## Mindstorm (Aug 18, 2008)

Just bumping this to say I plan on signing up tomorrow and having my first class.

Took forever to find a job in this market but here I am and here I go!

This should be the start of something awesome.


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## Mindstorm (Aug 19, 2008)

That was a ton of fun.  It's like learning to walk all over again with the sort of walking fighting stance (I apologize, the nomenclature hasn't stuck yet), and I can tell I don't have really strong stabilizing muscles at all.

Still, everybody at the school is really positive and makes sure you work your tail off, haha.  I gotta remember not to practice the forms quite as hard the next time I do it, I can tell my left hand isn't going to like me tomorrow, hehe.  This is excellent though.  All sorts of things to practice here.  I see nothing I don't like and believe I will stick with it.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 9, 2013)

Sorry to gravedig, but before I went to the class I Googled it and this thread came up. I went to the free demo thing tonight, and I hate to say it, but that bad review is quite accurate, even 5 years after this thread. Granted, several thing were different, but in all my experience with the demo was quite similar to that guy's. 

The Sifu still uses the Mike Tyson analogy. He uses it to demonstrate how to stop a hook, and any other way to do it he claimed as wrong. He was extremely arrogant about his art. He also asked how I would block in my art (Kung Fu San Soo) and I did a left up-windmill block and strike to the throat. He proceeded to tell me that I was wrong and that I would get hit (though a C-hand strike to the throat would stop even Mike Tyson if properly executed).

Then he showed his way of doing it (after being fully prepared and expecting a hook.) Pretty much the rest of it mirror's the other guy's experience. He bashed on my art while saying his is flawless (I do like it, just not the instructor). 

I did, however, try the rest of the class and enjoyed it, even if I sucked terribly (so different from San Soo). Everyone else was very nice and willing to work with me. 

Overall, I will be hesitant to practice there, though I do like Wing Chun a lot, just not the instructor.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 9, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> (though a C-hand strike to the throat would stop even Mike Tyson if properly executed).



Minor nitpick: Do not overestimate strikes to the throat. They work fantastically from surprise, though in the heat of the moment people have an interesting ability to take some very interesting shots.

After a quick google, example:





That being said, obviously they do work. But always is a word you shouldnt use or imply


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 9, 2013)

Point being, it is a practical thing to do and *if properly executed* (like how I worded it) is effective.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 9, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Point being, it is a practical thing to do and *if properly executed* (like how I worded it) is effective.



Yes, but im adding that the technique is the easy part.

Most knockdowns/knockouts from throat strikes come from full pelt punches or elbows, for strikes to the sides of the neck mostly forearms and again, punches. Then of course theirs chops and hammerfists, but the difference is still between all those, using hard surfaces with body mechanics and possibly gravity behind them, and a mostly arm powered thrust with the index finger and thumb joints. 

Theres a vague area between actual damage and immediate effect. Hitting with the joints between your index finger and thumb is only practical if the situation permits it to be practical, even if the technique is perfect in both cases. 
As an entry to manual strangulation, however, it gains a few points in favor of being useful provided theres a solid surface nearby to pin the person against.


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## Tames D (Jul 9, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Sorry to gravedig, but before I went to the class I Googled it and this thread came up. I went to the free demo thing tonight, and I hate to say it, but that bad review is quite accurate, even 5 years after this thread. Granted, several thing were different, but in all my experience with the demo was quite similar to that guy's.
> 
> The Sifu still uses the Mike Tyson analogy. He uses it to demonstrate how to stop a hook, and any other way to do it he claimed as wrong. He was extremely arrogant about his art. He also asked how I would block in my art (Kung Fu San Soo) and I did a left up-windmill block and strike to the throat. He proceeded to tell me that I was wrong and that I would get hit (though a C-hand strike to the throat would stop even Mike Tyson if properly executed).
> 
> ...



It's too bad this wing chun 'expert' is so arrogant and ineffective. Stay with KFSS, you'll be much better off. We're not so insecure. If you're going to train in Wing Chun, I would suggest a WSL instructor or move to Southern California and train with Gary Lam.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 10, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Yes, but im adding that the technique is the easy part.
> 
> Most knockdowns/knockouts from throat strikes come from full pelt punches or elbows, for strikes to the sides of the neck mostly forearms and again, punches. Then of course theirs chops and hammerfists, but the difference is still between all those, using hard surfaces with body mechanics and possibly gravity behind them, and a mostly arm powered thrust with the index finger and thumb joints.
> 
> ...



The throat strike is not and never was meant to be a knockout strike, it is meant to stun the opponent, do damage, and incite a reaction that will allow me to continue on to the rest of the body that was left open. I could have just as easily palmed to the nose, gouged the eyes, slapped the groin, uppercut the chin, punch the solar plexus, etc. I just demonstrated the throat strike as if I were to fight a large guy, I would probably want to do the most amount of damage possible with my first strike to end it that much sooner. KFSS isn't linear at all.  But I don't see why you are attacking that one part of my post completely out of context. My issue is, he blatantly told me that what I have been taught and what I teach is wrong. That is disrespectful to me, my instructors, my school, and my art. The arrogance of that man is unbecoming of a martial artist, and simply put, pisses me off. I will be very hard pressed to pay that man to teach me Wing Chun.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 10, 2013)

Tames D said:


> It's too bad this wing chun 'expert' is so arrogant and ineffective. Stay with KFSS, you'll be much better off. We're not so insecure. If you're going to train in Wing Chun, I would suggest a WSL instructor or move to Southern California and train with Gary Lam.



Unfortunately, I moved a few weeks ago from my home town of Salmon, Idaho to Raleigh, NC. No San Soo around here. I honestly would open up a school here, but I am going into the military quite soon, so I can't make a commitment. I will be trying Krav Maga tomorrow, and the day after another style of Kung Fu.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 10, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> The throat strike is not and never was meant to be a knockout strike, it is meant to stun the opponent, do damage, and incite a reaction that will allow me to continue on to the rest of the body that was left open. I could have just as easily palmed to the nose, gouged the eyes, slapped the groin, uppercut the chin, punch the solar plexus, etc. I just demonstrated the throat strike as if I were to fight a large guy, I would probably want to do the most amount of damage possible with my first strike to end it that much sooner. KFSS isn't linear at all.  But I don't see why you are attacking that one part of my post completely out of context. My issue is, he blatantly told me that what I have been taught and what I teach is wrong. That is disrespectful to me, my instructors, my school, and my art. The arrogance of that man is unbecoming of a martial artist, and simply put, pisses me off. I will be very hard pressed to pay that man to teach me Wing Chun.



Mate, strikes to the throat can and do knock people down or out if you hit then hard enough. Its hitting with the index finger and thumb joints thatll have variable results, specifically. As for a stun, that still assumes they care about it. If its preemptive, sure. But after things kick off, anything based on pain (like eye gouging, broken noses, slapped groins...) or the presumption of flinching towards something (like dropping the hands after being struck in the groin or being struck in the solar plexus) becomes very, very unreliable. This has nothing to do with you or your training, it has to do with the results of people being struck in various ways. Damage and leverage never stop working unless youre unable to employ them. Pain and 'expected' reactions arent reliable.

Im not attacking you or your post, and im not taking anything out of context. I was commenting on your one singular statement. The rest was fine, mate.
If you want to do as much damage is possible, a more forceful strike will get you there faster.
Hell, a hard enough hit, or enough hits in sheer volume to the throat can kill you. Its not exactly a well defended part of the body.


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## StormShadow (Jul 10, 2013)

a bite on the ear will work if properly executed


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 10, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Mate, strikes to the throat can and do knock people down or out if you hit then hard enough. Its hitting with the index finger and thumb joints thatll have variable results, specifically. As for a stun, that still assumes they care about it. If its preemptive, sure. But after things kick off, anything based on pain (like eye gouging, broken noses, slapped groins...) or the presumption of flinching towards something (like dropping the hands after being struck in the groin or being struck in the solar plexus) becomes very, very unreliable. This has nothing to do with you or your training, it has to do with the results of people being struck in various ways. Damage and leverage never stop working unless youre unable to employ them. Pain and 'expected' reactions arent reliable.
> 
> Im not attacking you or your post, and im not taking anything out of context. I was commenting on your one singular statement. The rest was fine, mate.
> If you want to do as much damage is possible, a more forceful strike will get you there faster.
> Hell, a hard enough hit, or enough hits in sheer volume to the throat can kill you. Its not exactly a well defended part of the body.



I am well aware the effects of a throat strike, but my art does not rely on that being the fight finisher. And I fail to see how that would not be preemptive, at the very least it wouldn't be expected. Think of the guy throwing the punch. Odds are, unless he knows I am a black belt he will probably assume that his hook will connect. So when it doesn't and he gets an injured throat out of it, there will be some surprise. 

And, if we are picking out singular statements, you said, "anything based on pain (like eye gouging).... becomes very, very unreliable." And then you later say, "Damage... never stops working." Yet what is an eye gouge? If I forcefully insert my finger(s) into your eye(s), would it not cause certain and possibly irreversible damage, at least for a short time?


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## Cyriacus (Jul 10, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> I am well aware the effects of a throat strike, but my art does not rely on that being the fight finisher.



Your original statement was,
"(though a C-hand strike to the throat would stop even Mike Tyson if properly executed)."

Im afraid that just isnt reliable.



> And I fail to see how that would not be preemptive, at the very least it wouldn't be expected. Think of the guy throwing the punch. Odds are, unless he knows I am a black belt he will probably assume that his hook will connect. So when it doesn't and he gets an injured throat out of it, there will be some surprise.



Firstly, pre-emptive refers to hitting him before any form of fight. One might also call it a sucker punch or cheap shot.
Secondly, if hes full of adrenalin youll be lucky if he even feels it, let alone gets surprised. Since this is in the context of a head to head fight wherein he throws the first hook, were speaking in the context of an ego driven brawl. Also meaning hes had plenty of time to work himself up.



> And, if we are picking out singular statements, you said, "anything based on pain (like eye gouging).... becomes very, very unreliable." And then you later say, "Damage... never stops working." Yet what is an eye gouge? If I forcefully insert my finger(s) into your eye(s), would it not cause certain and possibly irreversible damage, at least for a short time?



No, actually. An eye gouge is an attempt to remove the eye from the head or to force your fingers into the eye to disrupt vision. For damage to occur youd need several seconds of sustained and considerable pressure during which the other person would suddenly have every reason to wreck your day because you just tried to blind him. This is all assuming you beat his blink reflex, and even if you do, he still might not care since his intent is built on offense and not defense. Theres a whole thread explaining how unreliable eye gouging is on here if you want me to dig it up.


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## StormShadow (Jul 11, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Sorry to gravedig, but before I went to the class I Googled it and this thread came up. I went to the free demo thing tonight, and I hate to say it, but that bad review is quite accurate, even 5 years after this thread. Granted, several thing were different, but in all my experience with the demo was quite similar to that guy's.
> 
> The Sifu still uses the Mike Tyson analogy. He uses it to demonstrate how to stop a hook, and any other way to do it he claimed as wrong. He was extremely arrogant about his art. He also asked how I would block in my art (Kung Fu San Soo) and I did a left up-windmill block and strike to the throat. He proceeded to tell me that I was wrong and that I would get hit (though a C-hand strike to the throat would stop even Mike Tyson if properly executed).
> 
> ...



who was the instructor?


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