# Ugh. . . Innovative Firing Stances for the AK



## OULobo (Dec 7, 2005)

I'm guessing there isn't much or a sight picture.


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## OULobo (Dec 7, 2005)

I couldn't resist this one either. The "over the head" technique seems to be quite dominant.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 8, 2005)

I saw this on another forum...it's pretty pathetic.  If you had to be in a gunfight, you'd want it to be against someone like these morons


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## Flying Crane (Dec 8, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> I saw this on another forum...it's pretty pathetic. If you had to be in a gunfight, you'd want it to be against someone like these morons


 
I would suggest that unless you spent your childhood growing up in a chaotic, war-torn environment in which you have known nothing but fear and rage for your entire life, your family and friends are being killed and your home is being destroyed, you just might want to refrain from making such judgemental comments.


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## Tgace (Dec 8, 2005)

You would think they would have better technique then wouldnt you?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> You would think they would have better technique then wouldnt you?


 
I suspect in a true firefight technique is bound to deteriorate as the chaos increases.  Technique aside however, I guess I was referring more to the bit about "these morons".  "These morons" are a product of horrible circumstances and events that I am sure Kenpotex cannot relate to.


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## Tgace (Dec 8, 2005)

Take a look at our troops in Iraq, they at least shoulder their weapons...


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## Flying Crane (Dec 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Take a look at our troops in Iraq, they at least shoulder their weapons...


 
Once again, I am not arguing technique.  While I am competent with a rifle, I have no military experience, nor have I myself ever been in anything even resembling a firefight.

I am suggesting that arrogantly referring to these people as _morons_ is inappropriate.  I doubt the individual who made this reference would fair any better in a real firefight, and I doubt he has any experience whatsoever with the type of conditions that made these people into who/what they are now.  Therefor, calling them _morons_ is juvenile, ignorant, and inappropriate.


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## Tgace (Dec 8, 2005)

Well as this is the "Firing Range" and not the Study, I would think that technique is the point here. I do note your point. But based on the inhuman horror stories that come out of some of those third world cesspools Im not breaking out my violin.


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## theletch1 (Dec 8, 2005)

You're right...this isn't the study.  If you're wanting to discuss the geo-political situation in Africa then, by all means, start a thread there.  However, let's just discuss how these folks are handling their weapons in here.  I remember seeing film footage of US soldiers in Viet-nam laying an M-16 over a wall and just spraying back and forth with a supressing fire.


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## Tgace (Dec 8, 2005)

The "state of the art" in combat stances is what I call the "center hold" stock close to sternum, elbows in tight to body, torso leaning forward and square to target.


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## mrhnau (Dec 8, 2005)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> let's just discuss how these folks are handling their weapons in here.  I remember seeing film footage of US soldiers in Viet-nam laying an M-16 over a wall and just spraying back and forth with a supressing fire.



A stray or unaimed bullet does as much damage as an aimed and purposeful shot. Cover fire has its merits. It seems these guys are running somewhere, perhaps using guns in that manor? Looks a little odd, but perhaps is effective?

MrH


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## Tgace (Dec 8, 2005)

You see that technique a lot in the 3rd world. Its plain untrained technique. Theres no way those rounds are doing much effectively. Cover fire has to impact somewhere near the other guy to keep his head down. In combat if the troop can keep his weapon shouldered and is at least looking over/through his sights hes going to be much more effective than "sprayn' and prayn'"


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## Flying Crane (Dec 8, 2005)

Fair enough.  I just felt the initial comment that sparked my reply was also inappropriate to a discussion of shooting technique.  I've said my part, don't mean to belabor the point.

I agree, the technique doesn't seem to be one that would get a lot of accurate results, but may have merit as a spraying "cover fire" or shooting on the run when the goal is to keep the opponents pinned down by unpredictable fire.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> You see that technique a lot in the 3rd world. Its plain untrained technique.


 
Well, that is one problem with the civil wars and political upheaval that goes on in the 3rd world.  Most of these combatants are not soldiers with any actual military training.


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## Tgace (Dec 8, 2005)

Ive run firing with an M16/M4 in the center hold method while at least having the front sight post in the neighborhood of the target. IMO this technique shown has zero merit and is asking for friendly fire causalities when doing fire and maneuver.


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## theletch1 (Dec 8, 2005)

I remember doing live fire drills while in the Corps and remember that it scared the hell out of me knowing that some of the guys I was running with really thought that the sprayin and prayin method had it's merits during house clearing ops.  As far as the US military goes I know that there is a basic difference between the Army stance and the Marine stance.  While the Army has a "more lead down range means a better chance of a hit" mentality the Marine Corps still practices the "one shot one kill" ideology.  Now, does that mean that you won't see any Marines just sprayin down a building when the stuff hits the fan?  No, but given the most basic of training most soldiers (professional or not) would understand proper weapon control.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 8, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I suspect in a true firefight technique is bound to deteriorate as the chaos increases. Technique aside however, I guess I was referring more to the bit about "these morons". "These morons" are a product of horrible circumstances and events that I am sure Kenpotex cannot relate to.


:sadsong: 
No I can't relate to their horrible circumstances. Frankly, I don't give a flip about their circumstances, I was commenting on their [lack of] shooting technique. My comments would have been the same regarding the way gangbangers here in the US tend to turn their handguns 90-degrees to the side. 



			
				Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I doubt the individual who made this reference would fair any better in a real firefight, and I doubt he has any experience whatsoever with the type of conditions that made these people into who/what they are now.


 Thank you for that ASSumption. I admit that I have not been subjected to the types of conditions they face (see the previous paragraph for my level of concern). However, while I have not been in the military, I have had enough training/experience with firearms to be able to state with confidence that my skills would be better that the ones we've seen displayed.

As the others have said: this is the "Firing Range." The purpose of this board is to discuss firearms, and techniques for using them. If you want to discuss the sociological issues surrounding these people, start a thread in the study. I don't particularly appreciate the fact that what appear to be your only posts in the firearms board, are off-topic reprimands aimed at me. 

Okay, I'm done, I'm not going to waste any more time on this nonsense.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 8, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> :sadsong:
> No I can't relate to their horrible circumstances. Frankly, I don't give a flip about their circumstances, I was commenting on their [lack of] shooting technique. My comments would have been the same regarding the way gangbangers here in the US tend to turn their handguns 90-degrees to the side.
> 
> Thank you for that ASSumption. I admit that I have not been subjected to the types of conditions they face (see the previous paragraph for my level of concern). However, while I have not been in the military, I have had enough training/experience with firearms to be able to state with confidence that my skills would be better that the ones we've seen displayed.
> ...


 
The way your first posting was worded, it sounded to me like you were making implications beyond their shooting techniques.  If I misunderstood your message, then I apologize.  I agree, their shooting technique doesn't seem practical or effective.  It was my perception that your comment was perhaps aimed more at who they were, than at their shooting technique, that caused my reaction.  Again, if I was mistaken, then you have my apologies.  Sometimes things written on the internet get honestly misinterpreted.  It's one of the land mines that we all try to avoid, but sometimes step on.


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## theletch1 (Dec 9, 2005)

Guys, you're getting real close to hi-jacking the thread into a discussion that could/should be taken to the study or to PM.  Let's get back on to topic.  

The style that gang bangers use here in the states was mentioned.  Let's discuss possible reasons why they use the techs they use.  Is it a carry over from media influences (movies etc) or do the movies mimic what the gangbangers were doing in the first place?


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## Solidman82 (Dec 9, 2005)

These pictures remind me of a quote from the recent movie "Jarhead" 





> "The grunt dies for 5,000 misplaced rounds, The sniper dies for one clean shot at an officer"


 I'm not certain I worded it right though. I loved that movie.

Doesn't the kickback from an AK prevent people from being able to shoot like these guys? (speaking from the perespective of someone with no experience with automatics)


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## theletch1 (Dec 9, 2005)

The kick from ANY weapon firing full auto or at least 3 round burst would preclude handling the weapon like that IF you had any concern for any thing beyond simply firing the weapon.  As previously mentioned here they are as likely to create friendly casualties as anything else.


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## Solidman82 (Dec 9, 2005)

Yes, and on the point. Do these guys have friendlies?


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 9, 2005)

My opinion is that in many of these cases, the intent is not precision fire, but intimidation through volume.  Spray n pray in otherwords.

It's also why a well trained opponent can do serious damage to these untrained mobs.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 9, 2005)

From the look on the faces in a couple of the photos I would say that survival and getting someone to duck while the persons pictured got the hell out was more the point.  For some of the others i have no explanation as to why a person would fire in that manner  however do you remember the first time you ever saw someone fire a hand gun in a side tilt position now everyone seems to do it


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## arnisador (Dec 10, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> My opinion is that in many of these cases, the intent is not precision fire, but intimidation through volume.



I imagine it's this plus a certain amount of arrogance--a feeling of invulnerability.


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## theletch1 (Dec 10, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I imagine it's this plus a certain amount of arrogance--a feeling of invulnerability.


It's amazing just how quickly you begin to feel invincible when a full auto winds up in your hands...until you realize that there are just as many other folks out there with the same weapon.


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## Lisa (Dec 10, 2005)

Personally, I find the pictures disturbing and very sad.


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## Tgace (Dec 10, 2005)

The lack of cover disturbs me...and the lack of fire and manuver discipline. From a strictly professional viewpoint that is.....


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## Solidman82 (Dec 10, 2005)

I think the thing is that they do what they've learned works. The problem is, when they learn that it doesn't work, they're dead.


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## OULobo (Dec 11, 2005)

I was told the pics came from Liberia. I didn't post them, but there were a few pics showing some men firing in life jackets. I wonder what was the idea there. I was thinking that they may have thought that it would be protection from getting shot, like a cut rate kevlar, but I also thought that after one of them got shot and the rest realized it didn't work, they would stop. I also wondered if it was some kind of gang sign, like the "viscious sailors of Liberia" or something. Ha. Finally, I thought that maybe they used it as a shoulder pad for reduction of recoil, but I can't imagine they couldn't find something smaller, less visible and less binding, besides they don't seem to be doing much shoulder firing anyway.


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