# Self-defense cases. Are they aikidokas?



## jorgemp (Jun 7, 2014)




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## K-man (Jun 7, 2014)

I doubt there is any Aikido in these videos. Maybe some jujutsu especially in the first two videos. Kicking the guy on the ground is not the way aikidoka would go. A standing arm pin would effectively hold him until he cools ... no need for kicks. Number two is a good illustration of redirecting which is an aikido principle but once again he was throwing a few punches that would be out of place in many aikido schools. Number three was more a preemptive strike and the guy way have hit his head on the ground. Either way he was dazed and the security guy was well controlled as he didn't hit once the guy was down. He removed the weapon and made sure the guy was ok. 

Sorry to say, I didn't see a lot of aikido, except possibly number two.
:asian:


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## jorgemp (Jun 7, 2014)

K-man said:


> ... Kicking the guy on the ground is not the way aikidoka would go. ...he was throwing a few punches that would be out of place in many aikido schools.



An aikidoka could use kicks and punches in a street fight, exactly as Hector Lombard, judoka, uses boxing skills in his MMA fights.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> I doubt there is any Aikido in these videos. Maybe some jujutsu especially in the first two videos. Kicking the guy on the ground is not the way aikidoka would go. A standing arm pin would effectively hold him until he cools ... no need for kicks. Number two is a good illustration of redirecting which is an aikido principle but once again he was throwing a few punches that would be out of place in many aikido schools. Number three was more a preemptive strike and the guy way have hit his head on the ground. Either way he was dazed and the security guy was well controlled as he didn't hit once the guy was down. He removed the weapon and made sure the guy was ok.
> 
> Sorry to say, I didn't see a lot of aikido, except possibly number two.
> :asian:



The doorman did the right thing.


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## K-man (Jun 9, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> An aikidoka could use kicks and punches in a street fight, exactly as Hector Lombard, judoka, uses boxing skills in his MMA fights.


Of course he could, but what you have just demonstrated is your total lack of understanding of the philosophy of Aikido.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 9, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> An aikidoka could use kicks and punches in a street fight, exactly as Hector Lombard, judoka, uses boxing skills in his MMA fights.



The difference is MMA is a mix of styles, Aikido is not.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 9, 2014)

Jorgemp, I suppose the question to ask is, why did you think that there was Aikido present in those videos?


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## blindsage (Jun 9, 2014)

Atemi is a part of Aikido, and was clearly taught by Ueshiba, whether a specific school teaches it or not.


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## K-man (Jun 9, 2014)

blindsage said:


> Atemi is a part of Aikido, and was clearly taught by Ueshiba, whether a specific school teaches it or not.


This is very true but the atemi in aikido is not the wild punch as seen in the video. You are right that not all schools teach atemi but it is also true that of those that do, many don't teach atemi the way it was used in Ueshiba's time. The atemi in aikido is a strategic strike, not an opportunistic one.
:asian:


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## blindsage (Jun 10, 2014)

Absolutely, but it was there.  Now, the videos of course aren't Aikido atemi, but there is a lot more room for atemi in Aikido application than most Aikidoka's use, or often even realize.


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## oaktree (Jun 10, 2014)

I honestly think the people uses the ole' grab and swing him routine. I suppose if you want to think that the principles of distance, timing, redirection atemi are there well you can find all that in a boxing ring too but it wouldn't be Aikido.


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## jorgemp (Jun 11, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Jorgemp, I suppose the question to ask is, why did you think that there was Aikido present in those videos?



Probably those three men are trained in aikido and other martial arts. Currently, most people have some knowledge of diverse martial arts.


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## K-man (Jun 11, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> Probably those three men are trained in aikido and other martial arts. Currently, most people have some knowledge of diverse martial arts.


Apart from perhaps a little jujutsu in the second one there is nothing that looks like aikido. The third video has just one punch. As Chris asked, why do you think it is aikido? The fact that some people cross train is not evidence. I would suggest that many more people cross train BJJ than aikido.
:asian:


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## colemcm (Jun 11, 2014)

If atemi is taught, it's more likely to be taught to elicit a reaction than it is to actually strike.


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## K-man (Jun 11, 2014)

colemcm said:


> If atemi is taught, it's more likely to be taught to elicit a reaction than it is to actually strike.


True to some extent. Certainly it can be a strike like a preemptive back fist to the head to elicit a response to control an arm but it may also be a distraction as a strike after you have a hold to take the person's mind from resisting what you are about to do. In reality, if that first strike is successful it may be all over but in reality from an aikido perspective this back fist is really a feint, so I would actually slow it down a fraction to allow the person time to raise his arm. The third type of strike is at the end, as a finishing technique, if that is where you need to go. 

And of course that is not including the times when you might use a kick or a knee.
:asian:


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## blindsage (Jun 12, 2014)

colemcm said:


> If atemi is taught, it's more likely to be taught to elicit a reaction than it is to actually strike.


No, not necessarily.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> Probably those three men are trained in aikido and other martial arts. Currently, most people have some knowledge of diverse martial arts.



Hmm, let's try again why do you think that anyone in those clips are trained in Aikido, or, indeed, any martial art at all? Is it just that you expect most people, and anyone who gets involved in a fight, has some training (which is far from the reality), or that you expect every martial artist to have some training in all, or at least, many systems? What do you understand Aikido to actually be, what are the hallmarks you see here that indicate any connection to Aikido, other than a (honestly) rather baseless assumption that, well, they might have done some at some point?

I'm really just trying to understand what you see here, and where you're coming from. As there really isn't anything close to Aikido seen here, knowing why you thought they might show some can help us put you in the right direction for future experiences.


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## donnaTKD (Jun 12, 2014)

don't know about the aikido but there were some bits of muay thai in there and not a lot else.............

doorman did the right thing though which was good to see - why carry a bat if you don't know how to use one properly ?????


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, let's try again&#8230; why do you think that anyone in those clips are trained in Aikido, or, indeed, any martial art at all? Is it just that you expect most people, and anyone who gets involved in a fight, has some training (which is far from the reality), or that you expect every martial artist to have some training in all, or at least, many systems? What do you understand Aikido to actually be, what are the hallmarks you see here that indicate any connection to Aikido, other than a (honestly) rather baseless assumption that, well, they might have done some at some point?
> 
> I'm really just trying to understand what you see here, and where you're coming from. As there really isn't anything close to Aikido seen here, knowing why you thought they might show some can help us put you in the right direction for future experiences.




Because people were redirecting force and throwing guys around.

Of course just because akido do that does not give them a monopoly on it.

This guy used akido though.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r90w-AXESIk

Otherwise plenty of martial arts has that kind of redirecting force type throw.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2014)

I was specifically asking Jorgemp, and am still wanting to hear from him, but okay.



drop bear said:


> Because people were redirecting force and throwing guys around.



No, I'd disagree with that assessment of the clips. There was almost no redirecting of force in any of the clips, really&#8230; and the only "throwing guys around" was more grab and spin&#8230; not really anything even "martial arts", let alone Aikido.



drop bear said:


> Of course just because akido do that does not give them a monopoly on it.



No, but Aikido has a specific approach to how they do things.



drop bear said:


> This guy used akido though.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r90w-AXESIk



Er&#8230; okay. Good for him. I don't think anyone was doubting Aikido's viability on a technical level here&#8230; so not really sure why this clip was posted. The question was specific to the clips in the first post.



drop bear said:


> Otherwise plenty of martial arts has that kind of redirecting force type throw.



Well, all that's shown there is Kote Gaeshi, and sure, many  arts have versions of it&#8230; not always as throws, not always as any type of "redirected force", or anything similar, so the rest of that description isn't necessarily correct. For the record.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> I was specifically asking Jorgemp, and am still wanting to hear from him, but okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Grab and spin is redirecting force. They come towards you you grab them and redirect their force into a spin. Dude falls over it is a throw. But otherwise it might have been taught in a martial arts school it might not. It is hard to tell sometimes. As resistance can make things look like crap.


That gun vid is the only vid I know of where a guy uses akido. So I thought I would throw it in.

And plenty of martial arts have that redirecting force type throws. Even if sometimes they are not used as such.

Akido has a look about it that people identify. But like a lot of techniques they are quite often reflected in other styles or even people with no style.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2014)

Oh dear&#8230; 



drop bear said:


> Grab and spin is redirecting force.



If you're talking incredibly broad strokes&#8230; kinda. I'd also say that that methodology of "redirecting force" isn't particularly Aikido, as it's not really in line with the "harmonising" principle of Aikido&#8230; so&#8230; no, not really the same thing at all.



drop bear said:


> They come towards you you grab them and redirect their force into a spin.



Not really Aikido there&#8230; 



drop bear said:


> Dude falls over it is a throw.



Not necessarily&#8230; they could have tripped, stumbled, or anything else. And so far, no Aikido mentioned.



drop bear said:


> But otherwise it might have been taught in a martial arts school it might not. It is hard to tell sometimes. As resistance can make things look like crap.



Er&#8230; huh? No, what was seen there was not taught in a martial arts school (other than the bouncer clip). That's not saying the people in the videos definitively haven't trained in anything, just that what's shown is not an example of anything martial arts related.



drop bear said:


> That gun vid is the only vid I know of where a guy uses akido. So I thought I would throw it in.



Er&#8230; okay. Still not really anything to do with the questions asked.



drop bear said:


> And plenty of martial arts have that redirecting force type throws. Even if sometimes they are not used as such.



What type of "redirecting force throw"? I honestly don't feel you get what you're seeing here.



drop bear said:


> Akido has a look about it that people identify.



No, it's not a look I'm using to identify anything...



drop bear said:


> But like a lot of techniques they are quite often reflected in other styles or even people with no style.



And again&#8230; huh? Not really sure what you're meaning by any of this&#8230; techniques from any art don't get "reflected" in any other&#8230; it genuinely doesn't actually make sense.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2014)

[/QUOTE]





Chris Parker said:


> Oh dear&#8230;



 Lol.



> If you're talking incredibly broad strokes&#8230; kinda. I'd also say that that methodology of "redirecting force" isn't particularly Aikido, as it's not really in line with the "harmonising" principle of Aikido&#8230; so&#8230; no, not really the same thing at all.



 Looks like akido in an increadably broad stroke.



> Not really Aikido there&#8230;



Never said it was.




> Not necessarily&#8230; they could have tripped, stumbled, or anything else. And so far, no Aikido mentioned.



Or been thrown.



> Er&#8230; huh? No, what was seen there was not taught in a martial arts school (other than the bouncer clip). That's not saying the people in the videos definitively haven't trained in anything, just that what's shown is not an example of anything martial arts related.



Conceptually it is.



> Er&#8230; okay. Still not really anything to do with the questions asked.



Consider it value added.




> What type of "redirecting force throw"? I honestly don't feel you get what you're seeing here.



 Any throw where you are using your oponants force against them.



> No, it's not a look I'm using to identify anything...



But OP is.




> And again&#8230; huh? Not really sure what you're meaning by any of this&#8230; techniques from any art don't get "reflected" in any other&#8230; it genuinely doesn't actually make sense.



So you don't see similar ideas and techniques cross martial arts systems?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 12, 2014)

I'll try once more.



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> Looks like akido in an increadably broad stroke.



No, it doesn't. See my previous comment for explanation as to why.



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> Never said it was.


 
You're describing "grab and spin" as redirecting force, which you're saying is a principle of Aikido (not the way you're describing it, it isn't), so yeah, you were saying that it's Aikido, in a form (broad strokes).



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> Or been thrown.



Hence the "not necessarily", rather than "no"&#8230; 



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> Conceptually it is.



Only to the point that fighting was involved. In other words, no, conceptually, it's missing the actual martial arts aspect for it to be martial arts or from a school as such.



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> Consider it value added.



Hmm. Okay.



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> Any throw where you are using your oponants force against them.



Yeah&#8230; you're still not making any sense. Nor does that have anything to do with there being Aikido, or Aikido-like applications, which is where you started this idea.



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> But OP is.



I'm leaving it to the OP to say what they were using to identify anything&#8230; I'm not sure that there really is anything like a specific "look" to Aikido that's being recognised here.



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> So you don't see similar ideas and techniques cross martial arts systems?



That's not the same as "techniques are reflected in other styles". Additionally, the techniques aren't the important aspect&#8230; at all. If you're looking at the techniques as anything definitive, you've missed the point.


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## jorgemp (Jun 12, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> As there really isn't anything close to Aikido seen here, .




OK, OK, but... these are the closest street fighting techniques that I have found similar to aikido techniques.


These other cops probably also are trained in "real aikido" or other system.















> Er&#8230; okay. Good for him. I don't think anyone was doubting Aikido's viability on a technical level here&#8230; so not really sure why this clip was posted. The question was specific to the clips in the first post.




If that is not aikido, please post REAL STREET FIGHTS or MMA videos where aikido techniques are used.

Even Ellis and Jason de Lucia, aikidokas and MMA fighters, don´t use classical aikido movements in their fights.


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## K-man (Jun 12, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> OK, OK, but... these are the closest street fighting techniques that I have found similar to aikido techniques.
> 
> 
> These other cops probably also are trained in "real aikido" or other system.
> ...


Nothing here is aikido either. In the second video the guy sitting on the girl simply has her arm up her back, something we used to do in primary school. 

As to aikido in a street fight ... that is something that most Aikidoka would avoid, not because it couldn't be used but because it is against the principle of Aikido.
:asian:


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## ballen0351 (Jun 12, 2014)

You wont find much Aikido in Police work either the goal are different.  Self defense is counter to apprehension


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## blindsage (Jun 12, 2014)

One of my instructor's main teachers was Bernie Lau, the first American Black Belt in Aikido.  He worked vice both undercover and otherwise for decades for the Seattle PD.  He did modify his Aikido to be more practicable for police work, but his basis and foundation was always Aikido.


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## jks9199 (Jun 12, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> You wont find much Aikido in Police work either the goal are different.  Self defense is counter to apprehension





blindsage said:


> One of my instructor's main teachers was Bernie Lau, the first American Black Belt in Aikido.  He worked vice both undercover and otherwise for decades for the Seattle PD.  He did modify his Aikido to be more practicable for police work, but his basis and foundation was always Aikido.



Depends...  We still have several things in the mandatory DT curriculum in Virginia that reflect the input of a highly ranked aikido black belt.  Stuff that works great... if you practice it for a bunch of hours a week over several years -- but not so good under pressure without that heavy practice.


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## ballen0351 (Jun 12, 2014)

Does VA have a state wide standards for DT?  There isnt one here we have guidelines but I know some departments  that teach a bunch of Grappling/BJJ based with little to no strikes others that go heavy on boxing/strikes zero ground work other then cuffing someone on the ground.  We teach a combination but lately due to our Chief training BJJ he is moving us away from strike based


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## jks9199 (Jun 12, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Does VA have a state wide standards for DT?  There isnt one here we have guidelines but I know some departments  that teach a bunch of Grappling/BJJ based with little to no strikes others that go heavy on boxing/strikes zero ground work other then cuffing someone on the ground.  We teach a combination but lately due to our Chief training BJJ he is moving us away from strike based


A handful.  You can see them at http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/standa...ining/?pdf=cjsmanual-LAWCH5_PerformanceLE.pdf


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> OK, OK, but... these are the closest street fighting techniques that I have found similar to aikido techniques.
> 
> 
> These other cops probably also are trained in "real aikido" or other system.
> ...




The issue you are going to have is that different styles will reflect the same themes. So you will see "Akido movements" in real time self defence but they may not have an akido source. Just some people coming to the same conclusion from independent sources.

If you look at that outer wrist lock twist. Which presents as very akido.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NitLZwRr5Ok

Is also presented as the Irish whip in karate apparently.(there is also an Irish whip in catch and professional wrestling)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zykYDsCKn38

Different techniques (thanks Chris Parker) but same basic concept. One is akido one is not. Now it doesn't even have to have had any direct linage from one to another. Just two people independently could have come up with this idea that if you crank an arm this way. Then that happens.

And this has given me an idea for a new thread.


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2014)

blindsage said:


> One of my instructor's main teachers was Bernie Lau, the first American Black Belt in Aikido.  He worked vice both undercover and otherwise for decades for the Seattle PD.  He did modify his Aikido to be more practicable for police work, but his basis and foundation was always Aikido.




Yeah I have met some angry akidokas. They defiantly do exist.


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## K-man (Jun 13, 2014)

B





drop bear said:


> The issue you are going to have is that different styles will reflect the same themes. So you will see "Akido movements" in real time self defence but they may not have an akido source. Just some people coming to the same conclusion from independent sources.
> 
> If you look at that outer wrist lock twist. Which presents as very akido.
> 
> ...


Not wanting to pour cold water on the parade but it would be almost impossible to perform either of those techniques the way they were demonstrated if your opponent was resisting. I teach sankyo to both my karate and Krav students because it is great against weapons but I do teach it with atemi.

But with the outer wrist turn, which we call kote gaeshi, the way it was performed in the video is different to the way we perform it in our aikido. Once again, the way it was performed lays you open to being hit if your opponent has any martial experience.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2014)

K-man said:


> BNot wanting to pour cold water on the parade but it would be almost impossible to perform either of those techniques the way they were demonstrated if your opponent was resisting. I teach sankyo to both my karate and Krav students because it is great against weapons but I do teach it with atemi.
> 
> But with the outer wrist turn, which we call kote gaeshi, the way it was performed in the video is different to the way we perform it in our aikido. Once again, the way it was performed lays you open to being hit if your opponent has any martial experience.
> :asian:



Neither of those moves would be my first point of call.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 14, 2014)

Let's try again.



jorgemp said:


> OK, OK, but... these are the closest street fighting techniques that I have found similar to aikido techniques.



Leave off the idea of being persecuted, that hasn't happened. But let's start again&#8230; firstly, why did you associate these videos with Aikido? What in them seemed even related to Aikido to you?



jorgemp said:


> These other cops probably also are trained in "real aikido" or other system.



As others have (again) said, no, they're not.

You seem to be of the belief that Aikido "has to be" something that the people in the clips you post have trained in, despite there being no evidence to support that. My question is why do you think that "these cops probably also are trained" in Aikido?

As I said, this is not an attempt to show you up, or anything of the kind&#8230; it's to help us understand where you're coming from, so we can help you identify what actually is Aikido in the future&#8230; or if it is even close to what you think it is.



jorgemp said:


> If that is not aikido, please post REAL STREET FIGHTS or MMA videos where aikido techniques are used.



It doesn't work that way. To deal with the MMA side of things, that environment is so far removed from the application and context of Aikido that it's pointless to look for it there&#8230; you want to fight in MMA? Train in MMA-related approaches. As for "REAL STREET FIGHTS", look, I'm going to say something that might come as a bit of a shock to you&#8230; that's not what martial arts are designed for. Asking for video evidence that might well not exist isn't going to prove particularly fruitful for you&#8230; we can provide video of Aikido, or we can provide video of "REAL STREET FIGHTS"&#8230; but it's unlikely that the two will be in the same clip.



jorgemp said:


> Even Ellis and Jason de Lucia, aikidokas and MMA fighters, don´t use classical aikido movements in their fights.



And I wouldn't expect them to.



drop bear said:


> The issue you are going to have is that different styles will reflect the same themes. So you will see "Akido movements" in real time self defence but they may not have an akido source. Just some people coming to the same conclusion from independent sources.



Hmm&#8230; I can see where you're coming from, but no. Aikido (and any martial art) is not it's techniques, so you're looking at it from the wrong angle.



drop bear said:


> If you look at that outer wrist lock twist. Which presents as very akido.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NitLZwRr5Ok



Well&#8230; that's mainly because it is Aikido.



drop bear said:


> Is also presented as the Irish whip in karate apparently.(there is also an Irish whip in catch and professional wrestling)
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zykYDsCKn38



Hmm&#8230; not really the same at all&#8230; the only similarities are that there's a movement under the arm, and the contact/pressure is applied to the wrist&#8230; but it's not applied the same way, it's not the same locking principle in play, the movement is very different, and so on.



drop bear said:


> Different techniques (thanks Chris Parker) but same basic concept. One is akido one is not. Now it doesn't even have to have had any direct linage from one to another. Just two people independently could have come up with this idea that if you crank an arm this way. Then that happens.
> 
> And this has given me an idea for a new thread.



And, honestly, you've missed the point of what makes something Aikido (or any art) or not. It's not the techniques. And while it's true that a wrist can only be moved/manipulated so many ways, there are ways that fit one art, and ways that don't. Whether or not they fit, and why (or why not) is the important part&#8230; not what they are.


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## K-man (Jun 14, 2014)

Although this video doesn't include any 'real' fighting it shows enough aikido in action to see what sort of techniques an Aikidoka might utilise. There is no similarity between this and the clips posted.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr68Ix9nXJk
:asian:


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## ballen0351 (Jun 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> Although this video doesn't include any 'real' fighting it shows enough aikido in action to see what sort of techniques an Aikidoka might utilise. There is no similarity between this and the clips posted.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr68Ix9nXJk
> :asian:



That guys good


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jun 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> Although this video doesn't include any 'real' fighting it shows enough aikido in action to see what sort of techniques an Aikidoka might utilise. There is no similarity between this and the clips posted.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr68Ix9nXJk
> :asian:



I've seen this video before and it's pretty nice to see aikido demonstrated this way other then the common multiple attacker running at their sensei with half assed strikes and then being tossed one after another.


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## drop bear (Jun 14, 2014)

Found this one on my searching as well. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UwD4Y3dCpY

Resisted

Wait. Same guy and suddenly he is a muay Thai fighter.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s2GHR8z8RKk

And going to say some red flags.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 15, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Found this one on my searching as well.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UwD4Y3dCpY
> 
> ...



He does BJJ and Muay Thai, maybe he is an MMA fighter?


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> He does BJJ and Muay Thai, maybe he is an MMA fighter?




My guess is he is a guy from the akido gym representing those styles. So it becomes hard to tell what is contested and what isn't.


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