# Self Defence Orientated Martial Artists need weight training?



## Corporal Hicks (Nov 4, 2005)

Now, 
I was sitting this new gym today trying to get used to all the equipment, and struggling madly to see how I could sort out a routine with everything available! Whereas over in the corner the current playing rubgy team were working out hard, pacing themselves, probably building some serious mass.
 It started me thinking about what I do Martial Arts for and why I actually weight train!
Sure to incorporate weight training may make you a more serious Martial Artist, and maybe its now a stable part of being a Martial Artist, but I was thinking to myself, is it truely necessary for a self defence orientated Martial Artist!

Also if you were to do weight training, what kind of routines are you really looking at? Does it depend soley on the art?

Regards


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## Blindside (Nov 4, 2005)

Extra strength won't hurt you.   Actually mimicing a rugby players workout would be pretty good, strength training, cardio work, anaerobic work, those guys pretty much need it all.

Though the most important thing for a self-defense based martial artist is simply to aware of the world around you and try to avoid problem areas.  Strength training is pretty far down the list of priorities.  I would put weapon use (firearms, blade, impact) above strength training.  

Lamont


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## arnisador (Nov 4, 2005)

I don't think strength is nearly as important as speed and endurance as far as physical attributes that can be trained go.

But, it sure doesn't hurt!


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## Solidman82 (Nov 5, 2005)

I definately wouldn't say strength is a bad thing but too much strength training can slow you down. You pretty much have to have balance in your workouts (as in all things).


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## 7starmantis (Nov 5, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Sure to incorporate weight training may make you a more serious Martial Artist, and maybe its now a stable part of being a Martial Artist, but I was thinking to myself, is it truely necessary for a self defence orientated Martial Artist!
> 
> Also if you were to do weight training, what kind of routines are you really looking at? Does it depend soley on the art?
> 
> Regards


I dont think I would say training with weights makes you a more serious martial artists or that its a stable (staple?) part of being a MAist. Building mass and building strength are two seperate things. For someone interested purely in self defense I would recommend body weight, anaerobic workouts. There are thousands of different types of body weight workouts; pushups, dips, pullups, crunches, situps, body hops, running, bleachers, etc. More than building mass or lifting weights, this person should be in there fighting. High cardio is the key, very high. 

If you must use weights, I would recomend lower weight with higher reps. Of course there are many different ideas to self defense and the style you train will subscribe to one of these. Most CMA dont use muscle strength so heavy weight training to build mass could almost be viewed as a detriment. 

7sm


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## MJS (Nov 5, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Now,
> I was sitting this new gym today trying to get used to all the equipment, and struggling madly to see how I could sort out a routine with everything available! Whereas over in the corner the current playing rubgy team were working out hard, pacing themselves, probably building some serious mass.
> It started me thinking about what I do Martial Arts for and why I actually weight train!
> Sure to incorporate weight training may make you a more serious Martial Artist, and maybe its now a stable part of being a Martial Artist, but I was thinking to myself, is it truely necessary for a self defence orientated Martial Artist!
> ...


 
Being in shape is certainly a good thing.  As it was already mentioned, I wouldn't get to the point where you'd be so bulky that it'd interfere with movement.  In addition, having some good cardio is always a plus too!!

As for the weight routine that I do.  I break up the parts into 3:  chest/triceps, back/biceps, shoulders/legs.  I usually alternate between heavy/fewer reps and lighter/more reps.  There are many different programs out there.  Take a few and find one that suits your needs best.

Mike


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## Marvin (Nov 5, 2005)

Strength is attribute that can and should be developed just like cardio, faster punches etc, just part of general fitness of a MAist. Aside from that, the older we get, we are more prone to little nagging injuries. I think weight training helps to keep the old joints and tendons from spraining and muscles from pulling to easily.


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## Grenadier (Nov 5, 2005)

Self defense techniques are designed to maximize one's leverage, instead of trying to overpower the attacker, since such techniques help maximize the defender's chances of applying their own strength to the best advantage.  It's not really about trying to out-muscle the attacker, but instead, really out-smarting him by fighting smarter.  

That being said, being in shape, and getting stronger while maintaining flexibility, certainly can't hurt you.  It will also give you a bit more margin of error, if your technique isn't quite right, although most folks here would say "then correct the technique!."


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## Tgace (Nov 5, 2005)

Athletic Training...what did the ancient Greeks bas their games on? Warfare and combat skills. Look at what football players, track and field, wrestlers, boxers etc. are doing.


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## Corporal Hicks (Nov 5, 2005)

I was wondering what key components there are involved in a typical self defence situation and one of the components I came up with was the ability to use speed effectively!
That is to either move quickly and avoid or parry or to intiate a block quickly enough to block a hit?
Weight training would aid, if trained correctly in increasing speed? How is this done? Through explosive training?
When it comes to testing strength also, I've found that I follow I really good ab workout and my abs can take hits and feel generally strong, however when It goes to hanging from a bar and trying to do straight leg raises, I cannot do them? Is this due to me not learning the movement, or not having strong enough abs? Or both?
Regards


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 6, 2005)

you're onto the right idea about training for explosive speed, for my money, its the most important thing.
i always say that timing is more important than speed, but you want you strikes and blocks to be like dynamite.
as far as the leg raises go.....there are a lot more muscles involved in performing them then you might think.
try doing lower impact exercise and working your way up.......dont go crazy at the start.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 6, 2005)

working the abs helps strengthen the back and legs as well as the area you think you are working.
 I would put more emphases on endurance and less on strength but both have there place in the martial arts.  A strong leg workout is always good for you but at the same time you want to be able to keep you movement fast when doing martial arts (avoiding and moving in as well as kicking) so you don't want to become slow by over working legs.
make sure no matter what type of workout you do you precede it and follow it with stretching.


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## skyguy (Nov 7, 2005)

My theory is that if everything else is equal (skill and experience)
the stronger guy has a distinct advantage.

I'll take all the advantages I can get, especaially since my skill at this
stage of my training is minimal 

I have trained hard with weights for years, and I've already found that at least in grappling, I can best opponants ranked a lot higher than myself just by overpowering them with sheer strength.

As my skill increases I hope to become a formidable opponant by having both skill _and_ strength at my disposal.


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## BallistikMike (Nov 7, 2005)

Strength training definitely has its place in Self-Defense. You could look at your muscle mass as your armor...so to speak. 

The main thing is to keep the weight training simple and train core body movements that will help your self-defense training not hinder it.

I would always say the basic routine should consist of 3 main exercises.

1. Ab work. Lots of it. Including your lower back. Lots of twist work also to strengthen the obliques. This is the entire core of your body and should be strong.

2. I would do Dips. Use weights if they get to easy. It does for the upper body what Squats do for the entire body.

3. And of course squats. It works the entire body and also is one hell of a cardio workout.

Abs - 5 x 20 Crunches, 5 x 20 reverse crunches (hyper extensions) , negative plate work (45 lb plate on chest and back down slowly), Standing twists with the 45lb barbell.

Dips - 5 x 10 with weights. Just body until you can complete that

Squats - 1 x 20 or 5 x 5 with heavy wieghts. Or 5 x 10 with moderate weights. I also put weight on the shoulders and work on traditional stance training with an extra 100+ lbs on. Helps keep the feet grounded LOL.

These three alone will make your core body very strong and you can fill in other isolation exercises but they arent necessary.

I hate taking away from my bag work or scenario training train with lots of supplemental training like cardio and weight lifting so I try and combine them into 2 solid workouts per week for about 90 minutes each. The rest is all on drills and scenario training as well as basics.

You punches will hit harder ifyou get your core beyond where it is now. I promise you that.


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## Jerry (Nov 11, 2005)

Is it neccessairy for a self-defense-oriented martial artist to weight train? No it is not. I'd consider time at the gun range more important.

Is it useful for a self-defense-oriented martial artist to increase his strength, endurance, and (to an extent) mass? Yes, it generally is very useful. (though I see no reason that it need be weights; most millitairy exercise routines work without them)

Does the type of training depend solely on the art? No, not solely, but the art can certainly come into play. The mass that helps in sumo will get in your way in a "run and gun" firefight. There will be some universals (endurance good, speed good, strength good), but ideal balances will be affected by a great deal.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 11, 2005)

I used to incorporate a fairly comprehensive weight training program into my routine.  Problem was I found it boring, and it sucked up a lot of time that maybe would be better spent practicing my art.  I finally compromised and now I do a moderate series of stomach crunches, pushups, and arm curls.  Nothing more.  It takes little time to do so the boredom aspect is minimized and I am free to spend the time training my art instead.

Could weight training be useful for a self-defense approach to martial arts training?  Yes, I think so, but neither do I think it is necessary.  Think about how you would like to spend your time.  Maybe focusing more on your art will develop better skills, so a need to rely on strength is reduced.


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## arnisador (Nov 11, 2005)

Yeah, the boredom and the time commitment are a definite problem for me with the weights. I'm not happy about how long I have to spend on it--especially since on so many nights I must do it late in the evening, before bed, because of work and the kids.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 11, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yeah, the boredom and the time commitment are a definite problem for me with the weights. I'm not happy about how long I have to spend on it--especially since on so many nights I must do it late in the evening, before bed, because of work and the kids.


 
I always found it hard to sleep if I did weight training just before I go to bed.  Body is too tight, can't relax.


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## arnisador (Nov 11, 2005)

It's definitely undesirable. I'd also rather do it during the day when I'm eating than before bed when I'm not. I try to shift as many training days to the weekend as possible--including that I have every 2nd Friday off from work--but, there's only so much one can do!


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## Flying Crane (Nov 11, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> there's only so much one can do!


 
That is our curse.  If only I didn't need to work a job...GO LOTTO!!


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## MJS (Nov 11, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I used to incorporate a fairly comprehensive weight training program into my routine. Problem was I found it boring, and it sucked up a lot of time that maybe would be better spent practicing my art. I finally compromised and now I do a moderate series of stomach crunches, pushups, and arm curls. Nothing more. It takes little time to do so the boredom aspect is minimized and I am free to spend the time training my art instead.


 
Yeah, I hear you on the boring part.  There were many days when I sat at home, trying to decide if it was worth the drive to the gym.  I had considered getting a workout partner, but then trying to set a firm time to workout is another challenge.

The end result for me:  As a Christmas gift, my wife bought me a universal weight set.  Doesn't allow me to have all of the fancy stuff that I'd find at the gym, but I still get a great workout, can workout whenever I want, don't have to pay any gym dues, and I've found that my workouts can be done much quicker than when I was going to the gym.

Mike


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## MJS (Nov 11, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> That is our curse. If only I didn't need to work a job...GO LOTTO!!


 
I like the sound of that!!!:supcool: 

Mike


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## arnisador (Nov 11, 2005)

I work out at home too. I wouldn't find the time to drive somewhere. I have an all-in-one device at home, but while I'm away for the year I bought a simple weight set at Sears. It's a little bit limiting, but it does the trick.


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## Icewater (Nov 12, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> You punches will hit harder ifyou get your core beyond where it is now. I promise you that.


 
Mike has the right of it here.  Train your core and the rest will follow.  It certainly is not 'necessary', but it will serve you well in MA and your overall health.


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## Jonathan Randall (Nov 12, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I don't think strength is nearly as important as speed and endurance as far as physical attributes that can be trained go.
> 
> But, it sure doesn't hurt!


 
Exactly, but if you know what you're doing, a modest strength training regimen doesn't take that long. I get better results in 30 minutes two to three times a week now at 38 than I did with 1-2 hours every other day at 19. Difference is, I have some experience and knowledge that I absolutely lacked then. I'm sure you found a similiar thing as you got older?


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## Brother John (Nov 12, 2005)

Solidman82 said:
			
		

> I definately wouldn't say strength is a bad thing but too much strength training can slow you down. You pretty much have to have balance in your workouts (as in all things).


I'm all for balance in your workouts....but....

the old myth of being "musclbound" is just that, a myth. Having large and very strong muscles does not necesarily hamper flexibility or speed... infact, what generates speed???
One important ingredient is that which moves our limbs in the first place, muscular contractions.

Lots of sport train for strength but the specific event relies on speed and coordination. Take boxing for example. Or many of the olympic sports. Even basketball players need to hit the weights.


No.....strength building isn't NEEDED in training to be the best martial artist you can be, but it's VERY healthy and is a Great addition to what you can do physically.

Never know when a friend's gonna ask you to help him move...


Your brother
John


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## Adept (Nov 20, 2005)

As SkyGuy mentioned, when all other things are equal, the bigger guy wins. The same goes for any advantage, be it speed, skill, armament, endurance, or cunning.

So if you can increase your bulk and your strength without damaging your felxibility and your speed, then go for it!

The best way I've found to increase strength and size is work in decreasing sets with increasing weights. To maintain and increase your flexibility and speed, make sure you give your muscles time to heal between workouts, stretch thoroughly before and after, and use some plyometric exercises as well.


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## CuongNhuka (Nov 21, 2005)

mmm. think of this way. does being big bulky (if thats what your going for) make you a better martial artist? no. well it help you defend yourself? not really. however if you look like the Arnold (acter/body builder/politician) then people will asume your really tuff. are you? maybe, maybe not. the point is alot of stupid people will think you are. 

if you do end up going out for for building strenght here are some ideas. since you seem to not know what your doing get a personal trainer. then get together with him/her some time and come up with your personal schedule. a good way to decide the amount of weight you what to lift is to max out. a good safe max out is the most amount of weight you can lift 10 times perfectly. and then lift 1/3 of that weight.

when you lift rember that you lift never lift useing the same muscle groups two days in a row. a good work out is:
monday: upper body
tuesday: lower body
wendsday: cardio
thursday: upper body
friday: lower body
saturday: cardio
sunday: take it off so your body can heal it self.
some thing you need to rember:
1. never streach a cold muscle
2. never work (in the weight training sense) a cold, not streached muscle
3. when you think you cann't lift, don't
4. when your spotter says you cann't lift, don't
warm up with a few minutes of cardio, streach, work out. a good idea is after you work out, do a cool down of isometerics and then streach. weight trainingwill reduce flexibility, so when your done, streach again. it will also help you build more muscle mass. (cool hu?) the last two are a very good idea since your self defense oriented. isometerics will make you more explosive (load back, and explode through bones and shuch of the other guy). and if you cann't be locked you cann't have abone/joint brocken.

any ways, what ever. and if your personal trainer says other wise, ignore me.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## twayman (Nov 21, 2005)

MA and weight training = one strong martial artist.  I train in weights as well as my MA training.  It is my view that if you can be strong, fast and have skill then the better you will fair in a fight.


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## Shaolinwind (Nov 21, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I dont think I would say training with weights makes you a more serious martial artists or that its a stable (staple?) part of being a MAist. Building mass and building strength are two seperate things. For someone interested purely in self defense I would recommend body weight, anaerobic workouts. There are thousands of different types of body weight workouts; pushups, dips, pullups, crunches, situps, body hops, running, bleachers, etc. More than building mass or lifting weights, this person should be in there fighting. High cardio is the key, very high.
> 
> If you must use weights, I would recomend lower weight with higher reps. Of course there are many different ideas to self defense and the style you train will subscribe to one of these. Most CMA dont use muscle strength so heavy weight training to build mass could almost be viewed as a detriment.
> 
> 7sm


 

I am in total agreement, particularly about the cardio.


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## Adept (Nov 22, 2005)

A couple of things I want to address here:



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> More than building mass or lifting weights, this person should be in there fighting. High cardio is the key, very high.



Lifting weights works your cardio vascular system just as hard and just as thoroughly as a dedicated 'cardio' workout does. The only difference is that it also increases mass and size. Weights are detrimental where large muscle mass is a disadvantage, such as in the pool or on distance runs, but otherwise it is _always_ and advantage. It doesnt limit your movement or flexibility (except in very extreme Mr Universe style cases) and significantly increases your strength, mass, stability, and natural 'armour'.

In short, for martial arts and self defence, you are almost _always_ better off lifting weights than doing a dedicated cardio workout. Since weightlifting is limited by recovery rates, there is still a place for cardio workouts, and many low impact isolation exercises (skipping rope, crunches) and many SD or MA specific exercises (speed ball, patterns or sparring) are definate 'cardio' workouts as well. It certainly has a place, I won't deny that. But if you are deciding to spend a fwe more hours a week at the gym, look at weightlifting before the treadmill or the bikes.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> If you must use weights, I would recomend lower weight with higher reps.



I disgaree. If you are going to use weights, you will get the best results from starting at a medium weight, and increasing per set. Lifting light weights works your heart and lungs, but doesn't increase the mass of the muscle group you are working. Since lifting heavier will work your heart and lungs just as much, and increase the muscle mass as well, there is no reason not to do it.



			
				coungnhuka said:
			
		

> a good way to decide the amount of weight you what to lift is to max out. a good safe max out is the most amount of weight you can lift 10 times perfectly. and then lift 1/3 of that weight.



Nearly right. First, you need to find your ten rep max, as CNK says above. Then, you need to work out your set weights. This is how I do it.

TRW = ten rep weight

First set - 10 x TRW -20%

Second set - 10 x TRW -20%

Third set - 8 x TRW -10%

Fourth set - 6 x TRW

Fifth set - 4 x TRW +10%


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## CuongNhuka (Nov 23, 2005)

True adept, I mostly thought the gentle man was looking to increase muscle endurance and strength slowly. Im not sure if most people could start doing a lifting regiment quite like that. Though, I suppose it mostly matters on the amount of weight and your inherent body strength. Either way. 

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## notalent (Dec 4, 2005)

I think when you talk about the negatives about being big and musclebound, you need to remember how long it takes to become a size that it is actually negatively impacting other areas. 

These bodybuilders, they are working out hours and hours everyday, eating 10,000 calorie + diets a day, etc. The average person, one wouldn't be able to afford the food alone (they aren't eating hamburgers, they are eating protien foods, chicken, etc...that's A  LOT of food). 

I hear this among women a lot when they say they don't want to "bulk" up and not weight train. When in truth, unless they eat and sleep weightlifting it's not going to make them look like a man.

I myself, haven't even started in the MA yet. But, I've weight trained in the past with bodybuilding types and it's a lifestyle thing that you have to do to be so big. Minus using illegal drugs, it takes years and years to put real muscle on your frame. I'd go on a limb here and say there's very few ppl here (myself included) that have anything to worry about as far as putting too much muscle on our frame. Minus the very, very few, we aren't going to get huge working out 3 days a week.

I totally agree about the boring aspect. One reason I myself don't plan on going back to the gym. I'm going to do all the other stuff (push ups, etc, some free weights) to help me once I start my MA adventure.


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## ed-swckf (Dec 4, 2005)

I personally don't use any weight training, and while i'm sure it has its benifits i'm sure too that there are some drawbacks.  Above all however i will say self defence orientated martial artists do not _need_ weight training.


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## tempus (Dec 6, 2005)

If pressed for time you may want to look into functional weight training.  Where you are working out in mutliple planes of motion.  For example, I can bench press a good amount of weight, but how often during the day do I get under something and press it from my chest.  Where as I am carrying a box, drop my keys and now I have to hold the box, bend down and pick up the keys.  This is just as an example.  As with martial arts there are balance and techniques done in different planes of motion.  I usually split my workouts with Chest\Triceps, Back\Biceps, Legs and shoulders.  I am now going to fit in exercises utilizing medicine and the physoball.  i.e. Medicine ball throws, with a squat and catch / Lunges with a diagnoal chop, etc.  I figure it cannot hurt to hit some of the core muscles.  I study Nihon Goshin Aikido and I figure the this type of training will help with the throws, falls, and rolls.  Since sometimes you cannot be sure of which way you are going to fly across the room.


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 13, 2005)

notalent and tempus, check your user cp. good points.


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