# Can I Get Fries With That



## Rob_Broad (Oct 19, 2001)

:soapbox: In my opinion the Mc Dojo is ruining the martial arts for everyone.  These belt factories that give black belts for good grades really bring us all down.   There is a difference between a large successful school and a Mc Dojo.  As long as the quality of the instruction, and quality of the student is not compromised there is no problem with the size of the school.  We all know instructors who guarantee that a person will get a Black Blet in "X" amount of time and for this one low price.  What do you guys think?  And who is to blame for this phenomena?


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 19, 2001)

I think the attitude is because if you don't "award" them a belt, people feel cheated.  The whole "I came to learn, and how can I learn if I dont get belts?"

Another part is simple greed.  $40 for a belt test, ever other month.  Of course, the school uses half-belts.  10 students = $400 every 60 days, p[lus of course the $75/student/month 'training' fee, plus the 'required' gear (like $25 for a $5 jock).  Its the money part.

1 school I looked at a few years ago -required- you to buy all your gear from them.  For "safety" reasons they said....Its all "Quality" they said.  Everything was 20% over SRP.

Its a racket.  They turn out assembly line blackbelts who lack the basic moves like Break-falls, who haven't gotten more than a dozen hours sparring (if that) who suddenly think they can handle a streetfight.  Its dangerous...and people are getting hurt.

Of course, I don't think you can truely earn a belt when you spend 20minutes 2x a week "training" (note - time removed for warmups, attendence and other BS).  I think it takes real dedication and time spent (like an hour or 2 a day minimum).  This whole "Test every 9 weeks and get a belt" stuff is crap.  1 school I've been to in the last 2 years has never in that time frame seemed to have a student fail a belt test.  Something odd about that...oh yeah, and they just raised test fees. 

School I'm currently training at tests you when you're ready...not when their checkbook needs a refill.  I prefer that.  Makes me feel I really earned it.
:asian:


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## GouRonin (Oct 19, 2001)

I hear ya. Unfortunately the schools that don't do this are the ones who suffer. 

People should not be allowed to get a belt just for showing up. When you're told that you can't make contact or spar due to legal reasons or repercussions what does that say?

But what the hell do I know?


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## Rob_Broad (Oct 19, 2001)

As an instructor I know about having to pay the bills, and they never stop.  But to simply hold gradings because people have been their for X number of classes doesn't equate.  I personally use the idea of if they are ready then they can test, not until.  But it is tempting for an instructor to put up a couple other people during the next grading just to have a nice Christmas.  I go both ways on the half belt idea.  For adults no.  For children why not, you can cut the material in half for each belt, but you should also cut the cost of testing to maybe 2/3 because you still have to pay for the belt, the certificate and your time.  Instead of giving belts for achievement I gave crests and that worked a lot better than rapidly promoting people for good grades and attending your special events.  The Mc Dojo is a dangerous thing they give people a false sense of security and that can be dangerous.


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## girlychuks (Nov 5, 2001)

FWIW-
I train at what has, over and over again, been referred to as  McDojo, on many other newsgroups. I was very concerned so I have kept my eyes open- 
however, I have yet to see any scams that go on. True, there is testing fees, but there is no invitation to test before you have learned the material, and learned it well. We have no "half belts" either.
Also, the only piece of equipment I was "required" to buy from the school itself was a $5 patch with the school's name on it. Everything else, i was told by my sensei to see where I can get it the cheapest- 
on the othert hand, in my brother's school (not same style nor school) you get an "honor" patch by getting another student to sign a yearlong contractt. Hmmm

My point- I know I am a snot-nosed beginner- but I know my school has had rumours said about it that, from what I can see, are just not true.  So I just try to be accepting of the politics and stay above it-


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## GouRonin (Nov 5, 2001)

Why would everyone be calling your school a McDojo? Is it just jealousy? Is it a McDojo? There has to be some resoning behind it. Is it because of the orgaization it belongs to? Maybe it's the manner in which you test?

Overall I don't know why people might say that and it might not be true, but it's hard for us to say either way with the limited info we have here.

Some scams don't work outright in front of people's noses. They give schools a bad name that are working hard at their art.

Overall though, as long as the school satisfies you then stay.
:asian:


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## girlychuks (Nov 5, 2001)

Well, I suppose it would be called a McDojo in the aspect that it is one of a chain in a very large number of states.  
The school does make me happy- I have visited several other schools and there were singular dojos and other arts that seemed a lot less concerned with the art than money.
Either way, I'm just a baby getting into it, so almost anything will help me at this point


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 5, 2001)

When picking a school, some things to keep in mind are:

Atmosphere:
Am I comfortable here?  Do I feel welcome?  Are the instructors patient with the new students?

Knowledge base:
Are the instructors prepared?  Do they know the material?  Are they qualified?  Do they take the time to properly warm up before class?

Return on Investment:
Am I getting what I came here for?  Am I getting my money AND! times worth?

Case in point - 1 school I went to, didnt do any warm ups.  Injuries weree common.  They also thought nothing of sticking me on a streching machine for an hour....I walked funny for a few days....:shrug: 

Another school, the head instructor had read a lot of books, and watched a lot of tapes, but his black belt was worth $5 + tax. :shrug: 

If youre going for fitness, do they do alot of cardio?
If your going for self defence, do they steach it, or it it just the motions?
etc.

How do you evaluate this?  Its hard when you're a "newbie".  Ask, take notes, shop around, and don't fall for the hype.

IMHO - If youre comfortable there, and getting what you want out of it, then its a good school.

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 5, 2001)

Most McDojo scams are perpetuated on children and their parents.  Parents love to hear that their children are doing good, so they buy right into the fact that their child is the next up and coming Black Belt.  It is harder for McDojo's to cam adults.  They have  to play their cards just right with people who have no or very little martial arts experience.   It is usually played on some one who has low self esteem, and is usally a loner.


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## GouRonin (Nov 5, 2001)

The only large chain I can think of is Fred Villari. He does Shaolin kenpo and with his chain it's hit and miss. Some of them are great, some are...well...not.


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 5, 2001)

The problem with chain schools is there is no consistency.  The head of the chain may be phenominal but that person can not  be teaching in all the schools at the same time.  Chuck Norris had this in the late 70's early 80 when he a chain of schools.  He is reported to be a great teacher, but those in other schools were not as qualified.   After a while the chain school is not so much about the quality of the instruction, but more opening that next school in the chain.


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## paulk (Nov 9, 2001)

The term McDojo is new to us in the UK but we have a few, well quite a lot really.

What has surprised me is a stateside website for an impressive setup offering to give me my next Dan grade for $25, no proof of skill, knowledge or anything just an implicit trust between martial artists.

Not my way.

I think I've met a few customers though, haven't the heart to tell them red tape is cheaper.

Should we buy dan grades, what do you guys think?


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 9, 2001)

I think you do a disservice to both yourself, and anyone you train with if you simply buy them.  I'd rather earn them, even if it takes a little longer than I'd like.  I left a school where after a "stripe" test, that I brainfarted, and had to be almost physically walked thru the motions, that I got the "good job, you earned it"...its funny, I never in 2 years of visiting and 6 months of classes saw a single student fail either a stripe or belt test.  

I mean, if you really want to short cut, just print your own certs and raise yourself to supreme-grandmaster with mushrooms.  (its lunch time...heh)

:asian:


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## Icepick (Nov 9, 2001)

Those "buy your black belt on Ebay" deals crack me up!!!

I think another sign of a legit school is when the instructor encourages you to X-train.  Renegade always led his students to seminars outside our art, and had new and different people in to our school.

When I moved back to Syracuse work on a Ph.D., Renegade visited a "kenpo" school with me.  We reasoned that since the Modern Arnis open hand stuff often resembles Kenpo, it would be a good fit.  I spoke with the instructor and she informed me that the school has seminars once a month.  Of course, the instructors were from that school.  We then took a class, which culminated in intense "one-step" sparring.   

As I threw my strike and posed, statue-like, waiting for the counter, the brown belt partnered with me said "Umm, Umm, Umm", while the instructor screamed "DO SOMETHING".  The best student there was the one wearing a white belt, they hadn't ruined him yet.  

If a teacher is afraid of you seeing something else, ask yourself why.


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 9, 2001)

If we are buying rank can I please get the Tae Bo Black Belt from Century.  I have very littel hair, so I could pass myself off as a much paler version of Billy Blanks without the bas acting skills.  If I can, I promise not to add any stripes to the belt until I have bought atleast $5000.00 of merchandise from Century at wholesale prices.  At every $5000.00 in product from Century I sure that they would vouch for me as X-degree Black Belt in Tae Bo.


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## GouRonin (Nov 9, 2001)

Someone I know video ranked to a few belt stripes in black. Claiming it was very tough. So I took a video of techniques and watched it. Mimiced a good portion of them and sent the video off to the guy and lo and behold he sent me back a black belt and rank certificate. 

I don't wear it.

But Jaybacca and I always have a good time laughing about it. Techniques I don't even know. Anyone can make themselves look good on video.

"The rank may show, but it don't mean you know."


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 9, 2001)

Gou

That guy who sent you a certificate and belt; does he pose like he should be wearing blues tights, a red cape  and should have a big "S" on his chest.


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## GouRonin (Nov 9, 2001)

You know the instructor I am talking about and the guy who does the video grading.

I did it to prove a point. I don't wear it.
:angry:


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 9, 2001)

I didn't know that you did that, but I put 2 and 2 together and came up with scam.


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## brianhunter (Apr 16, 2002)

Im in Wichita KS the biggest small town you will ever see. We have what is called "Kim's TKD Academy" they have belt factories all over town. Some guys teach at rec centers etc. I am a police officer, so sometimes we can land jobs as security at these rec centers. I watched their testing several times over 6 months, I never once saw anyone failed and I seen kid after kid after kid being brought in to train. I dont know who to blame..the parents (who dont know any better) for thinking they are doing their kids good. The instructors for not really having much in the way of true arts.....but to me it wasnt the kids, they didnt know any better I wanted to stand there after class and pass out flyers for parker kenpo.
We are an instant gratification society and I think this has a big deal to do with it. People refuse to demonstrate patience now more then ever and it is being reflected in the children.

Just my 2 cents
Brian Hunter


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## fist of fury (Apr 16, 2002)

We've got them all over the place here.  Nearly every major road has one or two. My girlfriend has never seen a mcdojo I'm planning on taking her to one as prospectives customers just so she can see what they are like. I'll have to ask them if I can supersize my order


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## tonbo (Apr 16, 2002)

Eeeesh.

Yeah, I looked at a "video training" school as well, once.  I thought it might be worth it to get their free introductory video and maybe pick up a few additional tricks to supplement my training.  I thought, "Hey, if it's any good, I can get some of the other tapes and pick and choose techniques....".  Well, it...uh....*wasn't* any good.  Matter of fact, the tape became the hit of gatherings from that point on.....we just put the tape in and laughed ourselves silly at the ineffectiveness of the techniques.  I realized then (okay, this was like 9 years ago) that learning by video, without any basis in any real art, was not only ridiculous, but also very dangerous.

As for McDojos, they hurt more people than they help.  You really do get what you pay for, and even more what you *train* for.  I know a couple of people who are low- to mid-range black belts from some of these schools, and after talking with them about martial arts, I realized that they knew very little about MA in general, and their own "art" in specific.  Sad.  Even sadder was when, as a low-level brown belt (and nothing special, mind you!!), I could match these "dan ranks" in sparring.

McDojos hurt adults, true.....but they are worse on kids.  Kids who are exposed to MA should learn a number of things, including discipline, confidence, and respect.  However, at McDojos, they learn that they just have to whine and pay money, and they will get a belt next time the test comes around.  These fake "black belts" are going to be really surprised if they ever have to *use* their arts.......

A school I fear is a McDojo just moved to the strip mall up the street from my house.  I thought about going up and just saying "howdy", and welcoming them to the neighborhood....and talking with some of their high belts about MA.....until I saw a story on them on the local news.....and they were interviewing a 10-year-old "black belt".  Yeah.  Right.  It *took* me 10 years to get my black.  Did she start training when she was born?  Really?

Eeeeeesh.

Peace--


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## fist of fury (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *Eeeesh.
> 
> ...



  thats just sad.


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## warriorsage (Apr 16, 2002)

Howdy, just thought I'd jump in on this. I'm a product of a video training program through the IKCA, earning my BB last year. Still, you'll never hear me saying that video training is better than in an actual school with a good instructor. I've been lucky to do both. Spent three years in a couple different schools before the video program and have been training with a couple of others since doing the vid's. You can pick up a surprising amount of knowledge from video, and if the instructor requires video testing and gives video feedback, you can learn even more. Plus, if you've never taped yourself training, you're missing out on a fantastic training tool. Just about every major sport (even golf, ugh!) uses video of game footage and even practice sessions to improve their performance.

I've seen some excellent video blackbelts from the IKCA and I've also seen many who don't meet the standards I would have. Then again, I've been in many schools and to many tournaments and I can say the same for the majority of schools.

What's my point?? Don't know if I have one exactly.  "I often have no point, that's part of my charm." (what movie?) Guess I'm just saying that some video programs are a cash grab, some are well-intentioned, but probably done by somebody who shouldn't have, and others are a fair alternative to in-house training. I wouldn't knock someone right away if they say they are a video student. Most people that I meet and train with are amazed that I'm a video student, but heck, I'm just an amazing guy (haha). You can call my certificate cr@p if you want, but I know what went into it and what I got out of it. If anyone's ever in my nape of the neck, errr, I mean  neck of the woods, drop me a line and we'll bang around for a while.

Salute!


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## tonbo (Apr 17, 2002)

Personally, I have nothing against video training *per se*....  I have used videos of different styles and even kenpo weapons videos to enhance my training.  It is the same thing in my opinion as working out with someone from a different style, or from a high belt from another school in your style.  You learn different points of view, different details, and it generally helps.

I also don't have anything against those who train exclusively from video, assuming that there is some interaction with the people providing the videos.  If you can get feedback on your training, it is much better than just mimicking the moves from the videos.  For those who don't have a school in the area teaching the style they want, videos can be a valuable tool.

The problem that I have is with *bad* videos, and the one that I got was *BAD*.  I won't name the company or the school providing it, as I don't want to slam those training with this school.  Granted, it was an introductory video, and my philosophies differ from those on the tape......but still......I think that, at least in some instances, the techniques on the tape violate some basic principles of the style's founder.  

My opinions on this are my own, and may be wrong to some.  I cannot speak about the personal nature, personality, or honor of the instructors on the tape.  Until otherwise proven, I will assume that they are honorable people, with good motive, and have earned their rank (I have actually seen proof to verify it).  I just fundamentally disagreed with some of the basics they went on about, and left it at that.

Again, this is *my* opinion, based on my own personal idiosyncracies and mental firings/misfirings.  As far as personally slamming anyone else, my apologies if I seemed to do so.  

FWIW, I choose to look at belt rankings and stylistic differences in this light:  "It ain't the belt that makes the man(or woman!!), the man(or woman!!) makes the belt."

If you're training, you're gaining!!

Peace--


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## warriorsage (Apr 17, 2002)

Tonbo, well put. I don't expect everyone to accept video training or the IKCA for that matter. Just wanted to point out some benfits of a well-done program based on my experiences. Having been involved in a few different school environments, I thought my perspective could provide some insights. I didn't take offense to anyone's posting on this subject. Keep the info flowing. 

P.S. email me when you get some free time (warriorsage@yahoo.com)


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 17, 2002)

video training quite interesting........ but it is no replacement for live consistent workouts...  It does however, allow for decent Kenpo to be passed on thru a new media.  It still needs to  be refined.  I use a combination of phone, IM's, video, web cam & live workshops (whenever possible) to help the long range distance students.

:asian:


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## Seig (Apr 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bonehead _
> 
> *you can cut the material in half for each belt, but you should also cut the cost of testing to maybe 2/3 because you still have to pay for the belt, the certificate and your time.  *




As I said elsewhere,  I use the half belt thing and admitted that it was in part for the money....What I do though is charge 5 dollars more than I did for the previous color.  My testing fees roughly equate to 10 dollars per color plus 5 for the half belt.


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## Seig (Apr 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bonehead _
> 
> *The problem with chain schools is there is no consistency.  The head of the chain may be phenominal but that person can not  be teaching in all the schools at the same time.  Chuck Norris had this in the late 70's early 80 when he a chain of schools.  He is reported to be a great teacher, but those in other schools were not as qualified.   After a while the chain school is not so much about the quality of the instruction, but more opening that next school in the chain. *



I read in one of the trade mags, wish i could remember which one, that  a couple of years ago Chuck Norris got word of racial discrimination in two of his franchise schools in Virginia.  The two scholls were owned by the same people.  He came in, revoked their right to franchise, took over the schools and imported his own people to run it.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 21, 2002)

is a necessiary factor for sure!!

I strive for that!  (and my group gets it)  

:asian:


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## Seig (Apr 23, 2002)

I learned that lesson the hard way.  I wasn't very concerned about when there were only 6 of us, but now that there are more, I'm doing a lot of backtracking.


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