# Can you defend yourself without hurting someone?



## Joab (Apr 7, 2009)

One poster wrote his motivation for studying the martial arts was to be able to defend himself without hurting someone. And this was echoed to some extent by an Aikido practitioner I met who told me that in Aikido he was taught that if you have to fight you have already lost. Is it indeed possible to avoid hurting an attacker without being hurt? Well, if you can run faster I could see that happening. Could you somehow dodge, evade, move out of the way of blows to cause somebody to give up in frustration? Could you perhaps put somebody in a wrist lock or some such restraint and stop the attack through restraining someone? Well, I would say it depends on the situation. I don't personally believe in every situation one could defend himself without hurting the other person, that indeed, doing moves that would hurt the other person would be necessary at times, perhaps the vast majority of the time. What do you think, can you defend yourself without hurting your attacker?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 7, 2009)

Joab said:


> What do you think, can you defend yourself without hurting your attacker?



I can't imagine why I'd want to, unless the attacker was clearly not responsible for their own actions. When they attacked me, they gave up any claim on not being injured.  That's not to say I would go out of my way to injure an attacker, just that their woes aren't my problem.  My primary concern is me.  Their well-being comes a poor second to that.


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2009)

Joab said:


> One poster wrote his motivation for studying the martial arts was to be able to defend himself without hurting someone. And this was echoed to some extent by an Aikido practitioner I met who told me that in Aikido he was taught that if you have to fight you have already lost. Is it indeed possible to avoid hurting an attacker without being hurt? Well, if you can run faster I could see that happening. Could you somehow dodge, evade, move out of the way of blows to cause somebody to give up in frustration? Could you perhaps put somebody in a wrist lock or some such restraint and stop the attack through restraining someone? Well, I would say it depends on the situation. I don't personally believe in every situation one could defend himself without hurting the other person, that indeed, doing moves that would hurt the other person would be necessary at times, perhaps the vast majority of the time. What do you think, can you defend yourself without hurting your attacker?


 
I would say that unless you did not touch them at all, then no, its kinda hard to not hurt them.  Keep in mind that the 'hurt' can come in varying degrees.  If you were successfull enough to get a lock, the idea of a joint lock is pain compliance, therefore, you will be hurting them.  Probably won't leave any serious damage, unless you actually broke the joint you have locked, but nonetheless, they're still in pain.

You being up some good points as far as avoiding goes, however, the next thing to look at is how long do you want to drag your defense out?  I could put my vehicle between me and the bad guy and we could spend 30min chasing/avoiding each other.  Is that productive?  I could move and parry any strike that comes towards me, but will the attacker get frustrated and leave?  We don't know, we won't know because we're not mind readers.  While its easy to say that doing that will frustrate them, on the other hand it may make them madder than they were initially.  

My goal is to go home safe, not play patty-cakes with someone whos trying to cause me harm.  I will always assess the situation and act accordingly.  If I can verbally defuse the situation, then fine, it works, nobody gets hurt.  But, if I can't then I will do what I have to do, to defend myself, depending on the situation.  I will most likely base my response on what he does to me.


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## BrandonLucas (Apr 7, 2009)

The problem lies in the psychology of the person defending themselves...the only reason that I would not want to hurt my attacker is because I would feel guilty for any pain that I would cause them.

The thing is, the pain is justified by the fact that they are trying to inflict that same pain on me or my loved ones.

It would be different if I were the attacker.


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 7, 2009)

It depends on how committed they are to trying to hurt you. If a guy just wants to shove you and you move out of the way and he stops hen you could "defend" yourself without hurting your attacker, but the more committed they are to hurting you the more you will likely have to hurt them to prevent injury.


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## morph4me (Apr 7, 2009)

I can defend myself, and not try to hurt my attacker but if he gets hurt, I can't see myself being all that bothered about it. I don't go out of my way to hurt anyone or to get into situations where I have to defend myself, but if I'm put in that situation, I'll limit my response to whatever it takes for me to walk away, if he gets hurt, so be it.


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## Drac (Apr 7, 2009)

Depends if they know how to fall...


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## Jenna (Apr 7, 2009)

Joab said:


> One poster wrote his motivation for studying the martial arts was to be able to defend himself without hurting someone. And this was echoed to some extent by an Aikido practitioner I met who told me that in Aikido he was taught that if you have to fight you have already lost. Is it indeed possible to avoid hurting an attacker without being hurt? Well, if you can run faster I could see that happening. Could you somehow dodge, evade, move out of the way of blows to cause somebody to give up in frustration? Could you perhaps put somebody in a wrist lock or some such restraint and stop the attack through restraining someone? Well, I would say it depends on the situation. I don't personally believe in every situation one could defend himself without hurting the other person, that indeed, doing moves that would hurt the other person would be necessary at times, perhaps the vast majority of the time. What do you think, can you defend yourself without hurting your attacker?


Hey Joab  As an aikidoka, I would say it is possible, but with caveats.  Even in strictest Aikikai style Aikido, it is not always possible to defend yourself without harming your opponent.  One of the core principles in my style of Aikido is to defend without the INTENT to harm the opponent.  IMO, there are two main reasons why this does not always transpire in practice: 1. untrained opponents are seldom -in my experience- versed in ukemi! and 2. epinephrine! ie. we cannot always guarantee the proportionality of our defence to their attack - in the heat of the moment, even the most restrained aikikai can see red as would any normal person defending themselves.  I do not want to turn this into another Aikido-is-**** thread and but I only want to make the point that I aim to defend myself WITHOUT THE INTENT of destroying my opponent.  Reality, however, is not a textbook.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## dnovice (Apr 7, 2009)

Once you start fighting someone will get hurt. What you can do is minize the amount of violence or hurt that you inflict.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 7, 2009)

Joab said:


> One poster wrote his motivation for studying the martial arts was to be able to defend himself without hurting someone. And this was echoed to some extent by an Aikido practitioner I met who told me that in Aikido he was taught that if you have to fight you have already lost. Is it indeed possible to avoid hurting an attacker without being hurt? Well, if you can run faster I could see that happening. Could you somehow dodge, evade, move out of the way of blows to cause somebody to give up in frustration? Could you perhaps put somebody in a wrist lock or some such restraint and stop the attack through restraining someone? Well, I would say it depends on the situation. I don't personally believe in every situation one could defend himself without hurting the other person, that indeed, doing moves that would hurt the other person would be necessary at times, perhaps the vast majority of the time. What do you think, can you defend yourself without hurting your attacker?


I would say that it depends on what is meant by the word, "hurt."  

Hurt _could_ mean *pain*.  I am unconcerned about inflicting pain, in fact, I would say that that is preferable.  Negative reinforcement can be very effective and physical pain is a great form of negative reinforcement.  An attacker or predator expecting an easy victim may be put off by the pain that I just inflicted and there is a chance that he may break off the attack, thus preventing me from having to inflict *injury*.

If by hurt, you mean inflicting *injury*, then I would say that in most cases, yes, you can escape without doing injury to your opponent.  By injury, I mean damage beyond scrapes and bruises.

Now, if there is no means of escape, such as being cornered in your house, or if you have already inflicted pain and that is not deterring them, then as much injury as possible _must_ be inflicted as quickly as possible to whatever part of the body that will most effectively end the attack.  

If my attacker is unarmed or armed with a knife, that means knees.

If my attacker has a gun, I am in a pretty bad position.  If that I can get a hold of him and control where the gun is pointing, and mind you, that is a pretty big if for most of us,  then ideally, I want to disarm him and hold him at bay with the gun.

Should I not be able to quickly wrest the gun away from him, I need to change my tactics.  The longer that I spend wrestlling with a gunman the greater the chance of my getting shot.  I have no qualms about firing his gun into him in order to end the attack. 

I think that it is laudable to desire to disable your attacker without doing injury.  But if that is not possible, the attacker does indeed have it coming.  

As the Bible saith, as a man soweth, so shall he reap.  

As Daniel Sullivan saith, "Do violence unto others, and sooner or later, violence shall be done unto you."

Daniel


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## Joab (Apr 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can't imagine why I'd want to, unless the attacker was clearly not responsible for their own actions.
> 
> Joab: Well, it could be for a number of reasons. If you don't hurt your attacker, you won't likely end up in jail and/or sued for damages. People who have defended themselves and harmed their opponent have gone to jail and been liable for injuries. It depends upon who the jury or judge believes. And even if they believe you were atacked without provocation, they will decide if your defense was proportional, would it be the level of force a reasonable person would do in the same situation.
> 
> When they attacked me, they gave up any claim on not being injured. That's not to say I would go out of my way to injure an attacker, just that their woes aren't my problem. My primary concern is me. Their well-being comes a poor second to that.


 
Joab: I would agree with that, still there are the legal questions. And than, what if it was a person close to you that was emotionally distraught? You wouldn't want to hurt someone in your family or a drunk uncle and the like. But my real question is is it it even possible? Is it possible to avoid hurting someone who attacks you? Is it even possible?


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## blindsage (Apr 7, 2009)

I think this may be a long term goal for someone who desires it, but the only way to even come close to accomplishing it would be to train in a very realistic way, experience the complexities and nuances of actual confrontations and accept that there will be damage done to another at some point, and then taking that knowledge and over a long stretch of time focusing your training and technique on that goal.  It think that is what some Aikido claims, but they often leave out the realistic situational training in which there will, of a necessity, be harm done, in the process of striving for that goal.  I'm not saying aikido is ****, but those who instructors demonstrate defense against 5 attackers who only do committed overhead chopping attacks is not helping towards this goal.

Taiji takes a somewhat similar approach in that the goal is to receive the opponents attack and use their energy against them, but there is not an explicit goal of not hurting the opponent.  Actually some advance taiji practioners can be pretty harsh.


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## Joab (Apr 7, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would say that it depends on what is meant by the word, "hurt."
> 
> Hurt _could_ mean *pain*. I am unconcerned about inflicting pain, in fact, I would say that that is preferable. Negative reinforcement can be very effective and physical pain is a great form of negative reinforcement. An attacker or predator expecting an easy victim may be put off by the pain that I just inflicted and there is a chance that he may break off the attack, thus preventing me from having to inflict *injury*.
> 
> ...


 
Again, my main question really is is it possible to do regardless of legal, moral or philosphical or ethical questions. Is it in fact a possibility? I would say very difficult certainly, perhaps impossible in many perhaps most situations.


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2009)

Joab said:


> Again, my main question really is is it possible to do regardless of legal, moral or philosphical or ethical questions. Is it in fact a possibility? I would say very difficult certainly, perhaps impossible in many perhaps most situations.


 
While the legal side is important, when my life is in danger, it is not #1 on my list of priorities.  My safety as well as anyone with my is first and foremost!


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 7, 2009)

Joab said:


> But my real question is is it it even possible? Is it possible to avoid hurting someone who attacks you? Is it even possible?



Is it possible to fall down without hurting yourself?

I suspect that the answer is: it depends.  You could fall on the soft green grass in your front yard and laugh because it felt so nice to lie there and look at the sky.  Or, you could trip on a concrete parking block and do a face-plant on a tarmac parking garage floor, breaking your nose and several teeth, and lie there and moan and spend the rest of the day picking gravel out of your facial wounds.

Now apply that to anything you might do to someone else.

The answer to your question, I believe, is "it depends."


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## Joab (Apr 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Is it possible to fall down without hurting yourself?
> 
> I suspect that the answer is: it depends. You could fall on the soft green grass in your front yard and laugh because it felt so nice to lie there and look at the sky. Or, you could trip on a concrete parking block and do a face-plant on a tarmac parking garage floor, breaking your nose and several teeth, and lie there and moan and spend the rest of the day picking gravel out of your facial wounds.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, it depends. And I do think going into a situation like that with the intent of not hurting the person, unless it was a loved one, would be a dangerous mindset to be in. When I worked with the intellectually disabled I was given what is called TOVA training. This was developed by the Commonwealth of Virginia to restrain someone or break out of grips and the like in a way that would not hurt the other person. Some of it, like side stepping and other getting out of the way moves, I think would work, and I in fact did some of that before I got the training from footwork I learned in martial arts I took in the past. A lot of it was very complicated, and I didn't feel comfortable at all that it would work in a high stress situation. Most of the intellectually disabled are not violent, and the way I approached them usually calmed them down, speaking softly, positively and in a comforting way. That's not likely to work out on the streets against a mugger.

I agree it depends on the situation.


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## Big Don (Apr 7, 2009)

I can if one of two things happen:
They stop when threatened with physical force (fighting)
They stop when threatened with a weapon
other than that, I might be able to, but, where is the fun in that?


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## Nomad (Apr 7, 2009)

Of course it's _*possible*_.  It depends, however, on a lot of variables, many of which may be outside your control.  How big is the attacker relative to you, how intent is he/she on hurting you, how skilled and or fierce is the attack, how much warning do you have that this is coming, and so on.

If someone swings at me and I sidestep, I've defended myself without hurting them.  Note that this may not stop their intent to harm me whatsoever, but it did effectively defend against that attack.

If I get a good grip on them as they're coming in and can do a takedown and armbar or something similar, there's a good chance I can use pain compliance to get them to change their minds.  (I'll take the definition of "hurt" as in causing injury to them... transient pain may be necessary to avoid bigger injuries.  Besides, technically if they're attacking me I may already have "hurt" them... their feelings, their ego, etc.).


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 7, 2009)

Joab said:


> I agree, it depends. And I do think going into a situation like that with the intent of not hurting the person, unless it was a loved one, would be a dangerous mindset to be in. When I worked with the intellectually disabled I was given what is called TOVA training. This was developed by the Commonwealth of Virginia to restrain someone or break out of grips and the like in a way that would not hurt the other person. Some of it, like side stepping and other getting out of the way moves, I think would work, and I in fact did some of that before I got the training from footwork I learned in martial arts I took in the past. A lot of it was very complicated, and I didn't feel comfortable at all that it would work in a high stress situation. Most of the intellectually disabled are not violent, and the way I approached them usually calmed them down, speaking softly, positively and in a comforting way. That's not likely to work out on the streets against a mugger.
> 
> I agree it depends on the situation.



I think a lot depends on luck, too.


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## bluekey88 (Apr 7, 2009)

It's absolutely possible.  On any number of occassions, I've done it.  In my role treating individuals with behavior disorders, I sometimes encounter aggressive, out of control and dangerous behavior.  I am trained to use Devereux's _Safe and Positive Approaches to prevent and intervene in crisis_ (formerly CP/I).  I am contrained by my job to do whatever I can to not harm individuals in my care.  The techniques I'm allowed to use at work are effective and I like them so much I've become a licensed trainer in the system.  

That being said, it's not perfect. Stuff happens.  Most of the time, people don't get hurt when that is the intent of those intervening...however, I've seen interventions executed perfectly and clients or staff were injured.  

So, it CAN happen...but it doesnt' always happen.  On the street, I garauntee your average aggressor is going to ahave a fair bit more on the ball than my average client...and you probably won;t have the same level of back up (other staff) to help.

Peace,
Erik


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 7, 2009)

Well there aren't many points I'd have brought up that Daniel already has in his own inimitable fashion 

Is it possible? Yyyyyeah, but I'm gonna call it the kind of "possible" like a person being struck by lightning is "possible" if you know what I mean.


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## Steve (Apr 7, 2009)

Joab said:


> One poster wrote his motivation for studying the martial arts was to be able to defend himself without hurting someone. And this was echoed to some extent by an Aikido practitioner I met who told me that in Aikido he was taught that if you have to fight you have already lost. Is it indeed possible to avoid hurting an attacker without being hurt? Well, if you can run faster I could see that happening. Could you somehow dodge, evade, move out of the way of blows to cause somebody to give up in frustration? Could you perhaps put somebody in a wrist lock or some such restraint and stop the attack through restraining someone? Well, I would say it depends on the situation. I don't personally believe in every situation one could defend himself without hurting the other person, that indeed, doing moves that would hurt the other person would be necessary at times, perhaps the vast majority of the time. What do you think, can you defend yourself without hurting your attacker?


I think it's important to distinguish between "hurting" someone and "injuring" someone. Any grappler, whether it's BJJ or Aikido or whatever, learns to inflict pain without injury. 

I would say that it's very possible to learn to defend yourself without injuring someone.  Royce Gracie did that very effectively in 3 of the first 4 UFC events (the ones without rules).  I don't think anyone even had a bloody nose.


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## Thems Fighting Words (Apr 7, 2009)

Depends on how you define an "attacker", how you define "hurt" and how you define "defending yourself". Some idiot doing some chest beating and me walking away could count as me "defending myself" from an "attacker" without anyone getting "hurt". But that seems a pretty convoluted and manufactured scenario.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 7, 2009)

"defend yourself without hurting the bad guy"

screw that.

i dont have to defend myself unless they touch me, and someone touches me un-invited? they forfeit their right to walk correctly or chew solid food.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 7, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> So, it CAN happen...but it doesnt' always happen.  On the street, I garauntee your average aggressor is going to ahave a fair bit more on the ball than my average client...and you probably won;t have the same level of back up (other staff) to help.



Absolutely.

If I'm defending myself, my primary responsibility is to me. There is no guarantee that I can do that and not injure my attacker. Nor is there any guarantee I will not be injured myself. In a perfect world, I would tie him up like a pretzel and wait for the police. In the actual world I live in, I don't know if my attacker has people backing him up, other weapons, etc.

The next part of the equation is that I am in fact defending myself and not enacting retribution on my attacker for invading my space. The sense of outrage one feels at being violated can easily prompt feelings of revenge.


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## searcher (Apr 7, 2009)

Hurt or injur?     It is possible to not injur someone while defending yourself, but not hurt them?   It is possible, but as Bill stated, why would you want to?    If I am having to defend myself, then they need to remember that I defended myself.    I suppose I could defend myself by pulling my carry gun and not having to fire it.   But if I pull it, it has come to no other option and I am in dire need of an equalizer.

I suppose you could block and evade so you don't have to punch, knee, elbbow, or kick them, but even if I block them they are going to hurt.    And as good as my body movement is, I don't think I could move fast enough, for long enough, to make them give up without feeling pain.    Trying to keep it realistic.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 7, 2009)

The amount of damage they're going to sustain is going to be determined by the level of threat they present.  The threat will be met with the appropriate level of force.  That may mean evading a wild punch from a guy so drunk he can barely stand.  It may also mean putting a few rounds into the face of the guy who just pulled a knife on you.

Just as I'm not going to deliberately escalate beyond what is necessary to end the encounter, I'm not going to go out of my way to _not_ hurt the guy.  In other words, I'm going to do _what needs to be done_ in a dispassionate manner.  If the other guy isn't happy with the results...well, he brought it on himself.

Training (and I use the term loosely in this case) with the specific goal or intent of somehow being able to fight for your life without causing any injury to the person who is trying to injure or kill you is unrealistic.


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## Joab (Apr 8, 2009)

Thems Fighting Words said:


> Depends on how you define an "attacker",
> Joab: "Attacker" is defined as somebody who physically attacks you by punching, kicking, putting you into a bear hug, choke hold, etc.
> 
> how you define "hurt"
> ...


 
Again, I'm writing about a physical attack not a verbal threat. They can say all they want and it won't constitute a physical attack. Thanks for all the contributions from everybody. Again, this is not about the desireability of not injuring the attacker, rather whether it is in fact possible to defend yourself without injuring the attacker. Please keep this in mind.


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## Guardian (Apr 8, 2009)

Can one defend themselves without hurting someone?

That's a good question, I do suppose there are some out there that could do that, they are just that good.  Myself, I'm not that good, never wanted to be that good to be truthful.  So in my view, there going to get hurt to a point.  If there crazy as pointed out here, I'll try and keep their hurt to a minimum, but that's about it personally.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 8, 2009)

Joab said:


> Again, I'm writing about a physical attack not a verbal threat. They can say all they want and it won't constitute a physical attack. Thanks for all the contributions from everybody. Again, this is not about the desireability of not injuring the attacker, rather whether it is in fact possible to defend yourself without injuring the attacker. Please keep this in mind.


Well, since 'hurt' has now been defined as not injuring the attacker, yes, I believe that it is possible, though a lot depends upon the nature of the attack.  Some attackers will break off once they realize that you are not as easy a mark as they had hoped.  Others will break of once they perceive that they have what they're after (money, valuables, whatever).  

But there are some who, either once they initiate the attack or once they have the goods they have demanded, desire to hurt of kill you.  The only way to really end the attack is to escape, which may necessitate injuring them, or to injure them badly enough to end the attack.

Daniel


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 8, 2009)

To do so would require an extremely high level of skill. Not impossible, but not very likely.A commited attacker will likely struggle against your technique which will result in him injuring himself. It's hard enough to keep the attacker from hurting *you*, so I wouldn't recomend trying to be compassionate _druing_ the fight. Be compassionate before he starts swinging, and after you knock him down. You can show your kindness by helping him pick all his teeth up off the ground.


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## Thems Fighting Words (Apr 8, 2009)

Joab said:


> Again, I'm writing about a physical attack not a verbal threat. They can say all they want and it won't constitute a physical attack. Thanks for all the contributions from everybody. Again, this is not about the desireability of not injuring the attacker, rather whether it is in fact possible to defend yourself without injuring the attacker. Please keep this in mind.



I guess if the attack wasn't perticularly serious or the person attacking you was a drunk friend or something similar, it would be possible to restrain them without injuring them (serious injuries that is) as they wouldn't be going all out to seriously hurt you. It also relies a lot on the opponent's skill and thus your ability to effectively restrain them. If their skill level is commensurate with your own and their intent is serious, restraining them without injury is not going to be much of an option.


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## Joab (Apr 8, 2009)

Thems Fighting Words said:


> I guess if the attack wasn't perticularly serious or the person attacking you was a drunk friend or something similar, it would be possible to restrain them without injuring them (serious injuries that is) as they wouldn't be going all out to seriously hurt you. It also relies a lot on the opponent's skill and thus your ability to effectively restrain them. If their skill level is commensurate with your own and their intent is serious, restraining them without injury is not going to be much of an option.


 
I agree it depends on the situation. When I worked with the intellectually disabled, those that were violent often didn't have the motor skills to do much. One fellow was incredibly quick straight puncher and low kicker, and I'm sure he never took Wing Chun and had so low an IQ he couldn't even talk. Thankfully, as quick as he was, he had no power behind his blows, even though he was quite strong. 

If the fellow is drunk, really drunk, it wouldn't be all that difficult to defeat him without hurting him because his motor skills would be shot. He would also be very loose, the reason why so many drunk drivers don't get hurt in accidents they cause. A determined mugger,especially working in pairs or larger numbers...your going to have to take them out really quick and efficiently, I don't think you could refrain from hurting them in that situation. So, it depends on the situation. Thanks for all the contributions to this thread, your responses have mostly been quite good.


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## K-man (Apr 8, 2009)

My Aikido teacher explains it this way. If you are in a fight and you manage to win and in doing so you injure the other person, that person will probably forever harbor a grudge. If the opportunity arises at a later time he may well take to you, either alone, with mates or with a weapon. Winning the battle is not always winning the war.
He was involved in a road rage incident. Two guys came at him and he caused them both to fall to the ground without injury. They could not understand how it happened and both apologised furiously, quickly got back into their car and drove off.
BTW, my background is Goju. I train with this guy because he can perform techniques like no-one else I have ever come across. I still have so-o-o much to learn. :asian:


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## chinto (Apr 10, 2009)

No! not if its a real self defense situation.  If its a real self defense situation you are in real danger and you need to end the encounter fast. If you do not you will be injured, very possibly badly. 

So no, at that point its stop that attacker fast, and worry about his injury's or even survival after you are safe.


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