# T.K.D. is dead



## terryl965 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well after going over two years of posting the last week, I can see the T.K.D. section has really gone down hill. Not anybody fault but the quality of post are just terrible, people asking the same old question 500 times and same old answers always giving. Have a wonderful day.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 11, 2014)

Welcome to the internet.


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## Steve (Sep 11, 2014)

Yeah, well... errrrrr.......  sport vs street!


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## K-man (Sep 11, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Well after going over two years of posting the last week, I can see the T.K.D. section has really gone down hill. Not anybody fault but the quality of post are just terrible, people asking the same old question 500 times and same old answers always giving. Have a wonderful day.


Not sure why you're so surprised. I mean TKD is flawed methodology with out of date training methods. The fact that many people would consider it a TMA makes it even worse. So along with Karate, Aikido, Wing Chun, Ninjutsu and just about every other martial art you care to name, it is irrelevant to today's martial art scene. If it can't be used successfully by itself against the worlds top UFC fighters in the Octagon it has no value. So if we could all just jump on the MMA bandwagon and forget our petty differences we could all live in perfect harmony. We could even rename the site 'MMAtalk'. Pity help anyone who tries to stand up for their art so why would you bother? On MMAtalk we wouldn't even need a TKD section.
Sorry! Does this sound cynical?
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 11, 2014)

Could be worse.  Could be Starbucks.

"Why do you hate the troops?"
"Wheres my organic milk?"
"Why is there no pumpkin in my pumpkin spice drink?"
"Stop trying to give me cancer"
"I'm never buying your stuff again until you 1-give soldiers free coffee, 2-give me organic milk/almond milk/coconut milk, 3- take out the toxins foodbabe says you have in it, 4- some other reason that I dont understand but want to rant about."
"Why won't you tell me if your coffee has glutten in it?"

etc.  over and over and over  and over again.

At least here there's some variety and no ones demanded organic vegan glutten free TKD yet.


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## evelbug (Sep 11, 2014)

That's it.  Once I get my black belt, I'm going to open an organic, gluten-free dojang!


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## Steve (Sep 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> Not sure why you're so surprised. I mean TKD is flawed methodology with out of date training methods. The fact that many people would consider it a TMA makes it even worse. So along with Karate, Aikido, Wing Chun, Ninjutsu and just about every other martial art you care to name, it is irrelevant to today's martial art scene. If it can't be used successfully by itself against the worlds top UFC fighters in the Octagon it has no value. So if we could all just jump on the MMA bandwagon and forget our petty differences we could all live in perfect harmony. We could even rename the site 'MMAtalk'. Pity help anyone who tries to stand up for their art so why would you bother? On MMAtalk we wouldn't even need a TKD section.
> Sorry! Does this sound cynical?
> :asian:


Cynical isn't the word that comes to mind.   

Bob, I must not spend as much time in Starbucks as you.  Sounds like a depressing place!


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## Master Dan (Sep 12, 2014)

I suggest you watch the move Foot Fist Way and see if that will Mc Do Jo cheer you up. Why does everyone say Mc Do Jo when in Korean it should be Mc Do Jang?? Martial Art to its true form has never been about a commercial endeavor to die the death of faddism Tie bo Cardio kick box on and on they come and they go and one day MMA will to but as long as true masters in any art form are alive they will not change and it will go on. However it may not be a huge commercial or national success. The lack of posts and quality of posts comes from the fact the many quality people are just to busy with what matters to the art and all subjects have been beat to death with no resolve or endless neophytes thinking they have found a new foot or other appendage never discovered before.


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## Cirdan (Sep 12, 2014)

Master Dan, may I ask you what "Martial Art to its true form", as you put it,  really is about?


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## arnisador (Sep 12, 2014)

It's been said since at least the 90s (on USENET) that "repetition is the very soul of the internet".


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## dancingalone (Sep 12, 2014)

I just don't have much to say these days.  If a topic comes up that piques my interest, I'll definitely participate but those are infrequent.  Technique discussions are boring since you can't teach over the internet and the people who benefit from them really need to seek out instruction in person from someone qualified even if that is not their current teacher.  I find MA politics anathema and have largely achieved my goals in MA (rank, successful school, strong enduring relationships, etc.), so I tend to stay away from topics that sit within those domains.  <shrugs>


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## terryl965 (Sep 12, 2014)

Well Bob I don't do Starbucks, K-man cynical no way not you, everyone else got 10 post out you all to go toward the total post count for each month. Not bad for just getting back into UPWE


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 12, 2014)

The TKD section is not the ony one that has had a lower post count over the last few years.  But like everything else related to the martial arts this forum seem to have ebbs and flows as to which section is being posted in. We have had an influx of TKD people then the Ninja's, Then the Chinese, the Okinawan, the Islanders, etc.  everyone seems to hit all at once from one or another of these fractions stay a while then drift away only to return at a later point. 
Want a high post count or a section to get more activity; people in the traditional sections need to ask questions, maybe on a form and how they interpit a move in it or how a section is done and why. In the MMA they can star discussions on why a certain technique is no longer used or how and why a counter works better than another. 
Terry it is not just your section it is most of the Martial Arts sections that have declined.  Now the political thats another story


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## Manny (Sep 12, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Well after going over two years of posting the last week, I can see the T.K.D. section has really gone down hill. Not anybody fault but the quality of post are just terrible, people asking the same old question 500 times and same old answers always giving. Have a wonderful day.



Sad but it's true.

Manny


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## Manny (Sep 12, 2014)

Maybe we are saturated of TKD, you see TKD in every corners, there are so many tornaments out there where people step, step, step kick, step,step,kick-kickm using funny equipment with very low technique and almost everithing counting as a point in the kyorugy.

Maybe if we just focus on basics we can recuperate the nice martial art we have been doing for so many years.

I am a tecnique passionate, not a sport crazy man, and the side of the sport is wining over the martial art. With all respect the guys of the martial art cumunity I used to hang on takes tkd as a mac dojong or belt factories and belive this guys (karate, aikido, kung fu) are working very hard to show the people in my twon waht a good karate class is or a good aikido class is, even given exhibitions at the open and we (tkd) inside the MacDojangs doing step step step and kick and playing games because the children get bored easily or even planing the next halloween party in customes inside dojang with a very nice PIÑATA!!! C'mon!!!

Karate is resurging in the society of my town, aikido is gainin space rapidily and TKD is crowded with kids wanting to be the next olimpic star!!

So who's fault? We, very simple.

Manny


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## K-man (Sep 12, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Well Bob I don't do Starbucks, K-man cynical no way not you, everyone else got 10 post out you all to go toward the total post count for each month. Not bad for just getting back into UPWE


Mate, this post is expressing a similar cynicism to that I feel. Keep your head up. There's bound to be some life left in TKD.
:s425:


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## Gorilla (Sep 13, 2014)

I could post some controversial topics to liven the place up!  Maybe I will dredge up my old Youth Black Belts thread to get things going!


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## K-man (Sep 13, 2014)

Gorilla said:


> I could post some controversial topics to liven the place up!  Maybe I will dredge up my old Youth Black Belts thread to get things going!


opcorn:


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## crushing (Sep 13, 2014)

Bob Hubbard said:


> "I'm never buying your stuff again until you 1-give soldiers free coffee, 2-give me organic milk/almond milk/coconut milk, 3- take out the toxins *foodbabe* says you have in it, 4- some other reason that I dont understand but want to rant about."



Foodbabe    

The Jenny McCarthy/Dr. Oz/Deepak Chopra of food.  I would add Sylvia Browne to the list of charlatans, but she unexpectedly died.


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## jezr74 (Sep 13, 2014)

crushing said:


> Foodbabe
> 
> The Jenny McCarthy/Dr. Oz/Deepak Chopra of food.  I would add Sylvia Browne to the list of charlatans, but she unexpectedly died.





up there with Oprah spreading miss information and BS.


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## Master Dan (Sep 14, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> Master Dan, may I ask you what "Martial Art to its true form", as you put it,  really is about?


 Well with just a little time and not to deep going into being a scriptorium or librarian by true form I mean back to its basics or origin's prior to commercial influence and more to its spiritual, well being or Martial aspect. Issues of State, National association or Sport importance are given way to personal well being, self defense and service to others and the community. Self healing, improvements in academic or technical skills resulting in a better quality of life is what's primary in the study and practice of the art be it KMA, CMA or others.


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 14, 2014)

TKD isnt dead, it isnt very respected though due to its poor show vs other styles, it will always be popular with the flashy movie move crowd, it is one of the best looking arts. 

I personally respect it, and I like the type of person that does TKD, usually fun loving enthusiastic and sometimes bright people, rather than the dumb, angry, aggressive, "hard man" sociopaths and narcissists that I find at my Muay Thai gym here in England. 

I also respect a few of the techniques that have formidable stopping power like the spinning side kick for instance, if you get hit by that game over often times.


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## Balrog (Sep 14, 2014)

Well, as someone who has spent 30 years in Taekwondo, all I can say is.....it ain't dead.  Not by a long shot.


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## Gorilla (Sep 14, 2014)

Terry is talking about the death of this board on Martial Talk!  I think it is going to liven up a bit!  Don't know if the quality will get better but it might just become a little more fun and interesting!


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## skribs (Sep 15, 2014)

I can ask some weird questions, if you like.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 15, 2014)

Gorilla said:


> Terry is talking about the death of this board on Martial Talk!



"I haven't been here in ages and the place is gone downhill without me."

If that's the case why not post something that is better than everything else here??


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## Gorilla (Sep 15, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> "I haven't been here in ages and the place is gone downhill without me."
> 
> If that's the case why not post something that is better than everything else here??


 
 Probably not better...more interesting maybe!


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 15, 2014)

Steve said:


> Yeah, well... errrrrr.......  sport vs street!



That should do it :lfao:


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## Manny (Sep 17, 2014)

Some times I feel terrible because TKD dojangs are water down the techs, and well... like it or not that's the way it is, a few months ago when I taught TKD in the late class (two times per week) I had not many students, most of times just two and in very rare times four to five, my class was about technike, one steps, self defense, poomsae and kyorugy, I was happy cause I was transmiting my knowlege to two persons, and the boys and girls of the late night clase like it cause they were there to practice TKD not WTF sparring.

Now my class is gone, I mean the new sambonim deleted in favour of some kind of cardio-zumba.... what ever so I go to asist the new boss and some times she let me do my thing.

TKD is not dead inside of me, it's alive and wanting to share.... so let's see how it works the next weeks with the new boss, one thing is for sure the new boss want me the next hallowen in costume and partying with the kids... well.... o.k. so lets do it and see how it works, if I can break the pumking piñata with a dollyo chagui nice LOL.

Manny


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 17, 2014)

Manny said:


> Some times I feel terrible because TKD dojangs are water down the techs, and well... like it or not that's the way it is, a few months ago when I taught TKD in the late class (two times per week) I had not many students, most of times just two and in very rare times four to five, my class was about technike, one steps, self defense, poomsae and kyorugy, I was happy cause I was transmiting my knowlege to two persons, and the boys and girls of the late night clase like it cause they were there to practice TKD not WTF sparring.
> 
> Now my class is gone, I mean the new sambonim deleted in favour of some kind of cardio-zumba.... what ever so I go to asist the new boss and some times she let me do my thing.
> 
> ...



Sadly, it sounds like you're having difficulty dealing with the realities of TKD as a business. Frankly, you and two students mean the school is loosing money on that class. And for a commercial school, that means closure.

Are there programs like the YMCA in your neck of the woods? Running our school at the Y means we're not a commercial venture, which frees us from the need to make the sort of compromises that are too often required in order to keep the doors open.

It also means we have to share space, and limits how many classes we can offer each week, so it's not perfect, but you might look into non-commercial schools in your area.


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## donald1 (Sep 17, 2014)

Manny said:


> Some times I feel terrible because TKD dojangs are water down the techs, and well... like it or not that's the way it is, a few months ago when I taught TKD in the late class (two times per week) I had not many students, most of times just two and in very rare times four to five, my class was about technike, one steps, self defense, poomsae and kyorugy, I was happy cause I was transmiting my knowlege to two persons, and the boys and girls of the late night clase like it cause they were there to practice TKD not WTF sparring.
> 
> Now my class is gone, I mean the new sambonim deleted in favour of some kind of cardio-zumba.... what ever so I go to asist the new boss and some times she let me do my thing.
> 
> ...



I know that,  the goju ryu class i go to stays that way,  it appears many people don't like traditional martial arts.  I could be wrong but there's a lot of lazy people.  And a lot of people who do join expect it to look like something you would see in a Jackie chan movie or karate kid. And most people don't want to practice punches in horse stance or pushups


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 17, 2014)

donald1 said:


> And most people don't want to practice punches in horse stance or pushups


I don't mind pushups, as I see the value in the exercise.

I don't like punching in a horse stance.  I think most students have worse punching skill than leg strength.  Consequently, I think most students would be better to punch for 5 minutes like a boxer, and learn that skill, than to sit in a horse stance for 5 minutes to work on leg strength. Someone here often posts that you fight like you train.  I'd like to see more realistic punching in training. (I come from a KKW background rather than ITF).


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## donald1 (Sep 17, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I don't mind pushups, as I see the value in the exercise.
> 
> I don't like punching in a horse stance.  I think most students have worse punching skill than leg strength.  Consequently, I think most students would be better to punch for 5 minutes like a boxer, and learn that skill, than to sit in a horse stance for 5 minutes to work on leg strength. Someone here often posts that you fight like you train.  I'd like to see more realistic punching in training. (I come from a KKW background rather than ITF).



Personally i prefer kotekitai but pushups are good too never had problem with them 

If punch improve punches, knuckle pushups may help


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## Master Dan (Sep 18, 2014)

By the way of something interesting? Has anyone watched the fighting ring changed to a circle personally. I am thinking 3 years ago it was tried in Korea


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 18, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I don't mind pushups, as I see the value in the exercise.
> 
> I don't like punching in a horse stance.  I think most students have worse punching skill than leg strength.  Consequently, I think most students would be better to punch for 5 minutes like a boxer, and learn that skill, than to sit in a horse stance for 5 minutes to work on leg strength. Someone here often posts that you fight like you train.  I'd like to see more realistic punching in training. (I come from a KKW background rather than ITF).



I mind pushups being done during class... Class time is for training. Conditioning is for home. If someone doesn't know *how* to do a proper pushup, then spend enough time to teach it. But I think it's a colossal waste of valuable class time to do general conditioning during class.


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## Gorilla (Sep 18, 2014)

Master Dan said:


> By the way of something interesting? Has anyone watched the fighting ring changed to a circle personally. I am thinking 3 years ago it was tried in Korea



The ocatagon ring is the new fighting ring mandated by the Wtf...


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## Manny (Sep 18, 2014)

Gorilla said:


> The ocatagon ring is the new fighting ring mandated by the Wtf...



Why the change??  and what abou the e-hedgear?

Manny


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 18, 2014)

Personally, I think WTF sparring would benefit more from rule changes that allow a wider use of the TKD skillset than from changing the shape of the ring.


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## skribs (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't know, Dirty Dog. I think if you equate competitive arts to other sports, Taekwondo is like soccer. Anyone can throw or slap a ball. In contrast, Volleyball is like boxing.

I do wish there was more opportunity to practice more realistic sparring, but I like having a point system that emphasizes kicks.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 18, 2014)

skribs said:


> I don't know, Dirty Dog. I think if you equate competitive arts to other sports, Taekwondo is like soccer. Anyone can throw or slap a ball. In contrast, Volleyball is like boxing.
> 
> I do wish there was more opportunity to practice more realistic sparring, but I like having a point system that emphasizes kicks.



I honestly don't get the comparison.

You can have a point system that rewards kicks (as it already does, by giving bonus points to jumping or spinning kicks or kicks to the head) while still allowing points to be scored with something as insanely impractical as a punch to the head.

WTF sparring is one reason why so many people (incorrectly) assume that TKD is not a "real" martial art, and/or that it's not an effective tool for self defense.

Best ruleset? Something akin to the PKA rules or K1 rules. You can reward kicks (especially the more difficult ones) with bonus points, as is done now, while allowing the use of a much larger portion of the skills of TKD.


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## Gorilla (Sep 18, 2014)

Manny said:


> Why the change??  and what abou the e-hedgear?
> 
> Manny



E-head gear will be used in the next Grand Prix! It is believed that the octagon rings will promote more action!  I like them both!  I want the referees out as much as possible and I enjoy more action!


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## Gorilla (Sep 18, 2014)

skribs said:


> I don't know, Dirty Dog. I think if you equate competitive arts to other sports, Taekwondo is like soccer. Anyone can throw or slap a ball. In contrast, Volleyball is like boxing.
> 
> I do wish there was more opportunity to practice more realistic sparring, but I like having a point system that emphasizes kicks.



Anyone can through or slap a ball!  It does not appear that you know much about soccer? Don't really see your comparison!


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 18, 2014)

Gorilla said:


> E-head gear will be used in the next Grand Prix! It is believed that the octagon rings will promote more action!  I like them both!  I want the referees out as much as possible and I enjoy more action!



Then start penalizing people for falling down and quit stopping the fight after pretty much every point that is scored....

I suspect that would do more than changing the shape of the ring.


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## Archtkd (Sep 19, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Then start penalizing people for falling down and quit stopping the fight after pretty much every point that is scored....
> 
> I suspect that would do more than changing the shape of the ring.



Yes people are penalized for falling (WTF rules changed in March) and nobody stops action because of a score. When there is a stoppage it's usualy because of an intentional clinch. Often, it's the person who got scored on that creates that clinch, in efforts to stop being scored on again.


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## Gorilla (Sep 19, 2014)

Most of the stoppages are over disputed head shots! Which should be gone once the E-Head gear is perfected!


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## Master Dan (Sep 25, 2014)

Gorilla said:


> E-head gear will be used in the next Grand Prix! It is believed that the octagon rings will promote more action!  I like them both!  I want the referees out as much as possible and I enjoy more action!


 All the E gear and computer scoring would not be needed at all if TKD fighting was taken back to its full contact origins. It was always obvious who won the match one person was down or could not continue. It rarely went to points. Can you imagine needing electronic scoring in a MMA fight? How pitiful the watered down techniques and political judging that corrupted referring to the point that people could not be trusted? I am all for more action that is why I liked the 7-12 rule encourage an opponent to just finish the fight instead of bouncing watching the score board and trying to just finish one point ahead.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 25, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I don't mind pushups, as I see the value in the exercise.
> 
> I don't like punching in a horse stance.  I think most students have worse punching skill than leg strength.  Consequently, I think most students would be better to punch for 5 minutes like a boxer, and learn that skill, than to sit in a horse stance for 5 minutes to work on leg strength. Someone here often posts that you fight like you train.  I'd like to see more realistic punching in training. (I come from a KKW background rather than ITF).



Love push ups!  Fantastic exercise that works multiple muscle groups.  It is one of the staples in our physical fitness training.

In regards to punching (or anything) in a horse stance, I'll offer my view point.  In my professional opinion, line drills are taken out of context.  For example, punching is not done in a horse stance in real life.  By that I mean you don't do it in sparring, competition or in a real fight.  So we have a couple of options to consider;  Either the 'masters of old' were idiots that really didn't know what they were doing or they knew exactly what they were doing and many don't fully understand it.  With no intention of offending anyone, I honestly feel that many/most don't have a full grasp of what they were doing then or how we should be understanding it now.  Let me see if I can at least offer a brief summary of why I feel this way.  Based upon the way I was taught and the research that I've done;



I believe the 'masters of old' knew exactly what they were doing/teaching.  They had a specific purpose for each and every movement. 
I believe that, generally speaking, classes in the pre-WWII era were much smaller and much less commercialized that post-WWII to the modern era. 
I believe that when the arts became more commercialized post-WWII era that certain short cuts and streamlining came into play to accommodate a larger class. 
I believe that the horse stance, in addition to strengthening the legs and instilling discipline, demonstrate quite effectively the technique of lowering the center of balance to set the opponent/attacker up for a multitude of movements/principles/techniques including counter-strikes, covering up, taking them off balance while maintaining a solid platform, throwing or setting up a lock. 
I believe that all blocks and many other movements have a better, more practical application than what is commonly presented. 
Using the punch as an example, let me see if I can paint a picture that will describe what I mean.  Since we don't 'punch' in the horse stance for sparring, competition or fighting/defending ourselves, what else could it mean?  Well, from a line drill perspective, I don't have an issue with punching.  It's a great warm up, strengthens the upper body and trains the muscles for the general movement.  But what else?  I would submit that it is the reverse of the movement we need to look at.  As you read this, punch your fist out in front of you from the hip and leave it there a moment.  Now, slowly bring it back to the hip.  We see a few things when we do this;  first the palm is face down and the fist is closed.  This represents that you've grasped something (the attacker's limb, a piece of his clothing etc).  Next, as you draw the hand back into your center of gravity you rotate your wrist so that the palm is face up as it nears your hip.  This represents you taking that grasped limb/piece of clothing and bringing it into your center of gravity thereby unbalancing the opponent/attacker.  Combine this with the horse stance;  you grasp in a normal high stance (a fighting stance) and as you draw the opponent/attacker into your center of gravity you lower your own center of gravity by moving into a low horse stance.  The horse stance doesn't necessarily need to be side-to-side but could be rearward at a 45 degree angle depending on the circumstance. 

Try this with a partner.  Reach out and grasp his wrist or top while you're in a standing/fighting stance.  Now, while grasping him, rotate your hand back to your hip like you've done a million times while simultaneously lowering one leg into a deep horse stance.  See how you are pulling him off balance and into your center of gravity?  You just did Judo or Jujutsu or Hapkido or Chin Na or whatever art you'd like to call it.  I would submit that you also did 'old school' Karate or Taekwondo as well.  By incorporating this philosophy into our line drills it has opened up a plethora of principles that are already used in other arts and again I submit it could be and is a valid, legitimate part of Taekwondo also.  The 'high block' becomes a forearm smash as you're bringing him into you.  The 'palm heel block' turns into a sweep or throw.  Its not a matter of inventing some new movement, the movement already exists and is present.  It is simply a matter of reinterpreting the movement to illicit a different result.  In all honesty, if one were interested in doing so, you could spend a full year of training on JUST line drills because of the total amount of applications contained in them.  Same could be said of any form, in my opinion.


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## Manny (Sep 25, 2014)

Master Dan said:


> All the E gear and computer scoring would not be needed at all if TKD fighting was taken back to its full contact origins. It was always obvious who won the match one person was down or could not continue. It rarely went to points. Can you imagine needing electronic scoring in a MMA fight? How pitiful the watered down techniques and political judging that corrupted referring to the point that people could not be trusted? I am all for more action that is why I liked the 7-12 rule encourage an opponent to just finish the fight instead of bouncing watching the score board and trying to just finish one point ahead.



You mean something like this???  https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=748019441925623

Manny


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 25, 2014)

Yes Manny. But without the hogu. Pads in the hands and feet. Headgear. Go for it. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Gorilla (Sep 25, 2014)

Master Dan/Manny etc....What you describe would be another sport. It would be completely different than what the sport has become since the Olympic movement! The electronic hogu and head gear insure a level playing field along with video replay in today's environment. The sport has improved since 2008 a lot more action!  Failure to fight along with falling down are penalized.  Punching is scored regularly at the international level if you punch correctly.  We have been able to use punching to score regularly at international events and national events  (Archtkd, Terry and ATC can attest to this).  Getting BB's in Shotokan Karate was a big help with the punching.

i would like to see Old School TKD fighting come back as you described as an alternative to WTF TKD.  We would participate in such an event!  I would not support it replacing our current form of TKD in the Olympics. 

I believe we have room for both!


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## Archtkd (Sep 25, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I believe that the horse stance, in addition to strengthening the legs and instilling discipline, demonstrate quite effectively the technique of lowering the center of balance to set the opponent/attacker up for a multitude of movements/principles/techniques including counter-strikes, covering up, taking them off balance while maintaining a solid platform, throwing or setting up a lock.


The importance of stances stressed by all good teachers was widely explored in an interesting scholarly paper presented at the World Taekwondo Leaders forum in Seoul last year. The paper was titled &#8220;Value of Character in Taekwondo Training&#8221; and was authored by Youn Je Hong of the Korea Martial Philosophy Center and the Korea Sports Leaders Association. All the papers presented at the conference can be found on a single PDF file on this link: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/upload/pr/news/2013_forum_material2.pdf

 Here are some key points excerpted from Youn Je Hong&#8217;s paper, which has some English grammatical and spelling errors" 

"... Taekwondo stances are design to find the core line of body and to offset the gravity by means of distributing the weight evenly to all joints. It is easy to find out whether a trainee maintains the core line of body. Just push or pull when a trainee is posing 'Juchum seogi'. Most of trainee will lose the balance easily. However once a trainee found the core line and learn how to maintain the core line, he would stand still with 'Juchum seogi'. This is why 'Juchum seogi' is regarded as the basic stance of Taekwondo...

... In old days, it was told the beginner of Taekwondo had to practice just 'Juchum seogi' for three years. This may sound unrealistic but it will make sense if he learn the core line, the center of power and anatomy trains during first three years. In fact the first three years practice might decide thereafter entire Taekwondo progress, because the habit is hard to change once it is settled down...

... Usually a trainee find the core line of body while he stand up, then slowly bend the knees for 'Juchum seogi' until he reach the counter balanced point with weight. This balanced state is called 'Juchum seogi' which means half-sit down and half-stand up. In fact this counter balanced point on the core line of abdomen is the center of power, often called 'Dan Jun'. This 'Dan Jun' is also the starting pont of developing the anatomy trains explained above. These concept of core line and anatomy trains are based on the practice of punching with 'Juchum seogi' as well as kicking practice in the air. ..."


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## Master Dan (Sep 28, 2014)

I trained with people that went to and placed in the 3rd and 4th World tournaments. Thanks Manny that was some decent action not what we see today.


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## Master Dan (Sep 28, 2014)

Gorilla said:


> Master Dan/Manny etc....What you describe would be another sport. It would be completely different than what the sport has become since the Olympic movement! The electronic hogu and head gear insure a level playing field along with video replay in today's environment. The sport has improved since 2008 a lot more action!  Failure to fight along with falling down are penalized.  Punching is scored regularly at the international level if you punch correctly.  We have been able to use punching to score regularly at international events and national events  (Archtkd, Terry and ATC can attest to this).  Getting BB's in Shotokan Karate was a big help with the punching.
> 
> i would like to see Old School TKD fighting come back as you described as an alternative to WTF TKD.  We would participate in such an event!  I would not support it replacing our current form of TKD in the Olympics.
> 
> I believe we have room for both!


 Yes your right and punching in most cases is a lost art in TKD and hard to see refs even after instruction to score it was not done. Mainly because punching was so week. The Olympics is a money machine with different goals from that of traditional MA and has proven to not be the huge windfall nationally as was promised or promoted. I support sport for those who need it. But if we look back to history modern TKD had its largest increase in practitioners in Korea when it was incorporated into the public school system which then makes its focus non-profit. I believe the largest financial money base for modern TKD is to focus on its educational and health benefits to the public school system in the US. If I can get relocated and live another 20 years I hope to take 40 years of successful programs and grant research in remote areas to the lower 48 next year god willing and the creak don't rise.


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## Manny (Sep 29, 2014)

Gorilla said:


> Master Dan/Manny etc....What you describe would be another sport. It would be completely different than what the sport has become since the Olympic movement! The electronic hogu and head gear insure a level playing field along with video replay in today's environment. The sport has improved since 2008 a lot more action!  Failure to fight along with falling down are penalized.  Punching is scored regularly at the international level if you punch correctly.  We have been able to use punching to score regularly at international events and national events  (Archtkd, Terry and ATC can attest to this).  Getting BB's in Shotokan Karate was a big help with the punching.
> 
> i would like to see Old School TKD fighting come back as you described as an alternative to WTF TKD.  We would participate in such an event!  I would not support it replacing our current form of TKD in the Olympics.
> 
> I believe we have room for both!



Thank you sir for your input and yes we want something that's not olimpic kyorugi, maybe we could find a place in ponit karate games? maybe. I think we shall make a diference beetwen olimpic kyorugi and the old school kyorugi, I will love to use only foot and hand pads and maybe a helmet allowing hand techs to the face/head with control.

Manny


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## Twin Fist (Sep 29, 2014)

a good ridgehand to the face and there wont be any doubt about wether or not it scored........


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 1, 2014)

Twin Fist said:


> a good ridgehand to the face and there wont be any doubt about wether or not it scored........



That goes for my favorite...a good elbow! :wavey:


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## Cho, Yeonsoo (Oct 1, 2014)

Manny said:


> Maybe we are saturated of TKD, you see TKD in every corners, there are so many tornaments out there where people step, step, step kick, step,step,kick-kickm using funny equipment with very low technique and almost everithing counting as a point in the kyorugy.
> 
> Maybe if we just focus on basics we can recuperate the nice martial art we have been doing for so many years.
> 
> ...


I agree, but not completely, the club of which I participate in, we are full of teenagers and older men, why? because us teenagers are the ones that joined as little kids, the reason our club has an ageing population, is because of the fact that children do not join these days, they all want "Karate" and want to be "ninjas". Our Grand Master (chong Kwanjangnim) is a quite well-known man (Lee Sung Soo) and he is a 9th dan TKD and 9th dan in Hapkido, THUS, he inserts weapons training, unarmed self defense against weapons and Hapkido techniques as a part of the syllabus. so, it's really about the Dojang you go to, NOT the art itself


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 1, 2014)

arnisador said:


> It's been said since at least the 90s (on USENET) that "repetition is the very soul of the internet".



I disagree you unmarried person YOU! (* Insdie joke from another site *)
It is not the very soul, it is the center.  Bringing Religion into this discussion of Martia Arts. How dare you Arni!  

***
On a serious note, there are ups and downs for all forums as people come and go and new people strive to work their way into a position of knowledge or sharing knowledge. 
And in the end repetition is unavoidable. We repeat mistakes in history all the time, I mean on the internet a month old post is like a decade ago of international history / news.


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## tifire (Oct 19, 2014)

Dead? I still see T.K.D. is one of the most popular boards on MT.


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