# Fasting  and the Martial Arts Mindset



## DougKenline

It seems to me sometimes that my biggest enemy is fat.

I want to anihallate fat from my life.

I understand that for me this means reducing calories.

I have lost 130 lbs in the last year.

55 yo 6' 4" tall.  Went from 286 to 158.  158 because my biggest motivation is to be able to eat again.  Per my plan I hit 158 then went on 2 week feast cycle and weighed-in at 183 after two solid weeks of heavenly bliss.

Now I'm back on program per plan until next feast cycle.  Then will repeat cycle until they bury me.  Living out the remainder of my days just a shade underweight.  And never being even anywhere close to slightly overweight again for as long as I live.

That is the plan.  

And  it is going to require a great amount of self discipline during my fasting cycles.  Rewarded by all-you-can-eat no-menu-item-limit feast cycles.  I think over the course of 365 days there will be more fasting days than feasting days.  This is still an experiment and a work in progress.  

But long story short, I think the Shaolin Monk mentality will play a large part in my success.  Beat the fat.  Kick the living stuff out of the fat.  Ban the fat from my life totally and completely.  Win the game ever day, weather feasting or fasting, by being either almost too skinny or just under my perfect weight or somewhere in between until the day they bury me.

Of course if I get hit with Parkinsons or Cancer or something then everything could go out the window in pretty quick order.  Hopefully I've got a few good years ahead of me still.  Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise.   I think exorcizing the fat from my life will help in that area too.  

In the Shaolin Priest world, would a Grand Master tolerate any fat on his body?  It seems to me that it is a badge of honor to be nowhere near overweight, preferably to be almost too skinny.  Living proof that you have power over the weakness of overeating and having the layers of fat slowly overtake you as you weakly and lazily gorge on many hundreds and thousands of excess calories on any given day.

We all have seen the fat Budhist Priest statues.  I think that being fat like that is not acceptable in my Martial Arts world.

I understand we all come in different shapes and sizes and we all face different challenges and that I am very lucky to have the health and abilities that I enjoy every day.  But I am just throwing this out there to discuss these thoughts in my mind.  Of how I want to be almost too skinny for the rest of my life.  And still enjoy multiple week long periods of absolute King-Like feasting and gorging.   Enjoying the longer fasting cycles as much or more than I enjoy the shorter feasting cycles.  365 days of Nirvana and being somewhere between almost too skinny on the bottom end and not even close to being even remotely overweight on the top end.

In a way it's kind of like the bodybuilding scene, where guys and gals get overly obsessed with their physiques, but on the other hand it's a matter of personal pride, to know that whenever you are facing another individual in life, you automatically have the upper hand because your are in extremely fit physical condition and they are far, far, from it.   In the office and it business dealings etc.  

And not just for those reasons, but for many, many reasons.  Health benefits.  Satisfaction of living in the zone every day.  Can't put in to words but just thought I'd throw this out there and see if anybody has anything to say about my thoughts and my plan.  

Experience the clarity of mind when fasting.  Fasting while I study.  Fasting while I'm working out.   Fasting while I'm sleeping.  Enjoying the feeling that only fasting can bring.   The satisfaction that fasting is the obvious answer.  And I have it.  And I will never be fat again.

Others who are fat simply cannot endure the hunger that comes along with fasting.  If they could simply endure the hunger, eventually the fat will give up and go away.  It is simply a matter of mind over matter.  Much like becoming a Grand Master in the Martial Arts.  A Grand Master of Fasting.  Just look at him and you can see the Extreme Self Discipline that you know it takes, but you know you do not have.

Bottom line.  For me, I am convinced that Fasting is the Cure.  And the Kung Fu/Martial Arts Mindset is the only thing that can endure the hunger that is required to be endured.

Great forum guys.  Sorry if I'm out of place with my post.  Just trying to learn and up my training game.  

Thanks.

Here's the picture of my plan that is in my mind.......


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## DougKenline

added funeral date.....


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## Martial D

It sounds like you might have BDD. I'm not sure martial arts is the solution.


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## DougKenline

what's BDD.  I'm not sure you're in the right place here.


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## DougKenline

Practice without Pressure.  Make mistakes.  Correct course.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

BDD is body dysmorphic disorder.

Either way, spending the rest of your life losing 30 pounds just so you can feast to gain it back, to fast to lose it again isn't exactly a healthy way to live. Rather than that all or nothing mentality you seem to have for fast vs. Feast, it may be better for your body to just regulate what you currently eat and make sure it stays consistently healthy...


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## DougKenline

ok, well to the gentleman who starts off by calling names, i'll just say it sounds like you have some kind of disorder yourself, and have a nice day.

to kempodisciple and others,

if it may be better, then it also may not be better

sounds like you don't have a weight problem. that or you don't like to eat. 

if you like to eat, and you have a weight problem, then that leaves you with no choice.

you have to draw an upper limit line in the sand.  either that or you will go over it and then you will have to go back down again.  either that or you will just keep getting fatter.  either that or you will never be able to eat like you like to eat ever again.

if you have a weight problem and you like to eat and you don't wan't to ever be overweight again, not even for 5 minutes, then you have no choice but to lose then gain then lose then gain, it's just a matter of how far down under you want to go and how much and for how long you want to be able to eat

the mentality of losing two pounds and then gaining two pounds and then losing two pounds, and then gaining two pounds, and then losing two pounds and then gaining two pounds for the rest of my life and never being able to enjoy prolonged periods of feasting like a king ever again seems drab and boring to me and if the doctor told me i could never again enjoy prolonged periods of feasting like a king i would say ok well i'll just go out and shoot myself right now

cakes, cookies, candies, chocoalates, pizzas, cheeseburgers, potatoes, beef, sausage, i mean come on guys, feasting for weeks  at a time with no restrictions?  that is how i lived up until about 45 years of age, then at that point i became just a slow growing balloon....until i hit 286 and came up with The Final Solution.

a program of mediocrity losing two pounds and then gaining two pounds and then losing two pounds and then gaining two pounds and sitting there and looking at some good food and saying oh i can't eat that it will ruin my diet does not appeal to me in any way shape or form.

i like saying no to everything until it's time to eat, and when that dinner bell rings, don't get between me and my food, and don't plan on seeing me stop eating anything i can get my hands on for at least a few days.......then i will throw the lever and go back to fasting..............and don't plan on ever seeing me even slightly overweight ever again...........

and i understand that the situation is different for everybody, different ages, different metabolism, different abilities, different desires and goals, different genetics.........i guess i'm talking to guys who are more like me, getting older, love to eat like a king for prolonged periods of time, would rather get hit by a train than have to face never being able to feast like a king for prolonged  periods of time, vowing to never be even close to overweight ever again, remaining slightly underweight for as long as you live, working out and being in great shape...

look at bruce lee, wouldn't you like to look like bruce lee?  and still be able to have weeks long feasting-like-a-king no-holds-barred feast cycles from time to time? an still never be even slightly overweight not even one single day out of the year for the rest of your life?  hell yes.  every day.   count me in.  and i think my way is the only way that this can be achieved for me.

for me there is no other way.

so we disagree....thanks for your thoughtful comments and i wish you nothing but great success in all of your endeavors......................


dk


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## DougKenline

is Fasting a part of anyone's training  program here?  please share your thoughts on Fasting.


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## DougKenline

In this picture, is Bruce Lee underweight?  Is he overwieght?  Is he fat?  Would he allow himself to get fat?  At what weight would he say I'm too fat, it is time to go down?  If you like to eat like I like to eat, and if you get fat like I get fat when you eat like you like to eat, then there is no other choice if you are me.

I know some guys who can  eat whatever they want whenever they want and not get fat.  I am not that way.  Without some program of self disipline I will become very, very, fat.   I choose to fight the battle below the red line.  And my goal is to enjoy many, many, many, Big Green Light Feast Cycles in the years to come.  If you're not in to the Big Green Light Feast Cycles then you're not me.   And it gives me great pleasure to think that I can live out the remainder of my days under the red line all the while enjoying those periods of Feasting.  That is heaven on earth and for part of me, it is a good reason to be alive and keep working hard.  A fantastic reward.  My last two week feast cycle I gained 25 lbs.  And believe you me, man on man, it was the time of my life.  I went from 158 to 183 in two weeks.  Currenlty I'm back down to 169 and planning another one week Feast Cycle beginning 4/20.  Yea buddy!!!


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## DougKenline

I'm also a big Robbie Robinson fan.  He puts in the work buddy.  I wan't to put in the work.  You don't look like that without a serious hard core work out regimen in combination with serious dietary discipline.  I will research and perhaps send email to Robbie and ask him his opinion on Fasting.   I think he's living Down Under these days.


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## Headhunter

DougKenline said:


> In this picture, is Bruce Lee underweight?  Is he overwieght?  Is he fat?  Would he allow himself to get fat?  At what weight would he say I'm too fat, it is time to go down?  If you like to eat like I like to eat, and if you get fat like I get fat when you eat like you like to eat, then there is no other choice if you are me.
> 
> I know some guys who can  eat whatever they want whenever they want and not get fat.  I am not that way.  Without some program of self disipline I will become very, very, fat.   I choose to fight the battle below the red line.  And my goal is to enjoy many, many, many, Big Green Light Feast Cycles in the years to come.  If you're not in to the Big Green Light Feast Cycles then you're not me.   And it gives me great pleasure to think that I can live out the remainder of my days under the red line all the while enjoying those periods of Feasting.  That is heaven on earth and for part of me, it is a good reason to be alive and keep working hard.  A fantastic reward.  My last two week feast cycle I gained 25 lbs.  And believe you me, man on man, it was the time of my life.  I went from 158 to 183 in two weeks.  Currenlty I'm back down to 169 and planning another one week Feast Cycle beginning 4/20.  Yea buddy!!!


Well Bruce lee died when he was 32 years old so he's not a great example to use. You need some fat in your diet otherwise it's just not healthy.

Do you not see how silly that way is. You starve yourself to lose the weight then you binge on food and put all that weight back on and probably more. Then you do it again. There's nothing wrong with eating bad food as long as it's in moderation and you get some decent exercise. 

You use Bruce lee as an example but he didn't fast he had a nutrition plan. There's no way he'd have been in that good shape by eating nothing. Go speak to a doctor he'll say the exact same things everyone else is saying


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## Martial D

DougKenline said:


> ok, well to the gentleman who starts off by calling names, i'll just say it sounds like you have some kind of disorder yourself, and have a nice day.
> 
> to kempodisciple and others,
> 
> if it may be better, then it also may not be better
> 
> sounds like you don't have a weight problem. that or you don't like to eat.
> 
> if you like to eat, and you have a weight problem, then that leaves you with no choice.
> 
> you have to draw an upper limit line in the sand.  either that or you will go over it and then you will have to go back down again.  either that or you will just keep getting fatter.  either that or you will never be able to eat like you like to eat ever again.
> 
> if you have a weight problem and you like to eat and you don't wan't to ever be overweight again, not even for 5 minutes, then you have no choice but to lose then gain then lose then gain, it's just a matter of how far down under you want to go and how much and for how long you want to be able to eat
> 
> the mentality of losing two pounds and then gaining two pounds and then losing two pounds, and then gaining two pounds, and then losing two pounds and then gaining two pounds for the rest of my life and never being able to enjoy prolonged periods of feasting like a king ever again seems drab and boring to me and if the doctor told me i could never again enjoy prolonged periods of feasting like a king i would say ok well i'll just go out and shoot myself right now
> 
> cakes, cookies, candies, chocoalates, pizzas, cheeseburgers, potatoes, beef, sausage, i mean come on guys, feasting for weeks  at a time with no restrictions?  that is how i lived up until about 45 years of age, then at that point i became just a slow growing balloon....until i hit 286 and came up with The Final Solution.
> 
> a program of mediocrity losing two pounds and then gaining two pounds and then losing two pounds and then gaining two pounds and sitting there and looking at some good food and saying oh i can't eat that it will ruin my diet does not appeal to me in any way shape or form.
> 
> i like saying no to everything until it's time to eat, and when that dinner bell rings, don't get between me and my food, and don't plan on seeing me stop eating anything i can get my hands on for at least a few days.......then i will throw the lever and go back to fasting..............and don't plan on ever seeing me even slightly overweight ever again...........
> 
> and i understand that the situation is different for everybody, different ages, different metabolism, different abilities, different desires and goals, different genetics.........i guess i'm talking to guys who are more like me, getting older, love to eat like a king for prolonged periods of time, would rather get hit by a train than have to face never being able to feast like a king for prolonged  periods of time, vowing to never be even close to overweight ever again, remaining slightly underweight for as long as you live, working out and being in great shape...
> 
> look at bruce lee, wouldn't you like to look like bruce lee?  and still be able to have weeks long feasting-like-a-king no-holds-barred feast cycles from time to time? an still never be even slightly overweight not even one single day out of the year for the rest of your life?  hell yes.  every day.   count me in.  and i think my way is the only way that this can be achieved for me.
> 
> for me there is no other way.
> 
> so we disagree....thanks for your thoughtful comments and i wish you nothing but great success in all of your endeavors......................
> 
> 
> dk



Calling names? LOL get outta here. I was serious, and I still am. As @kemodisciple  mentioned, what you are doing is unhealthy, and is symptomatic of BDD(a condition where one obsesses over their body weight/shape/etc)

There is no martial artist anywhere that will tell you to fast and binge. It's bad for you, and has nothing to do with martial arts.


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## CB Jones

Wouldn't that diet cause a lot of Muscle Atrophy?  Also, wouldn't the fasting and binge eating cause hell to you cholesterol, sugar, blood pressure, and testosterone levels?


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## DougKenline

Thanks guys!  I appreciate the feedback!

Is there anybody here who's lost 130 lbs who would like to speak to the subject?

I think it depends on what Doctor you are talking to eh?

The fasting cure : Sinclair, Upton, 1878-1968 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive


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## DougKenline

What kind of hell does it cause to your cholesterol, sugar, blood pressure, heart, circulatory system, organs of elimination,  and testosterone levels being 130 lbs overweight and eating hundreds and thousands of excess calories every day?  

What is the minimum amount of calories that can be consumed and still be a healthy diet?

give me a number.  minimum amount of calories that can be consumed per day and still be healthy.

.


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## DougKenline

Smoking is bad for you.  I like to smoke cigars.  Drinking is bad for you.  I like to drink.  Are there any Martial Artists who like to do and do do unhealthy things?  I think there are many.  It is a matter of choosing your own lifestyle.  I don't see that it is going to cause me any more problems than being 130 lbs overweight would cause me.  

And just because Bruce Lee died at 32 does not mean he is not a good example to follow eh?  Dying at 32 was not the only thing he did in life.   Isn't it just a life choice?  I think you are only saying it is not what you would choose to do, but you can't say what I should choose to do.  

Look at some of these eating challenge guys on youtube.  They eat enough to kill a horse.  That is what they choose to do.  I think it is a good discussion either way.  Time will tell how it goes.  Success for one may not be the same thing as success for another.  

If I can work my plan successfully I will be happy.  I disagree that fasting then feasting is such a terrible thing.  I think I will be here next year still working the same plan and never having gone over 185 lbs.  I'll bet 50 cents on it.  Any takers?

I think nobody here likes to eat like I like to eat.  



.


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## gucia6

DougKenline said:


> is Fasting a part of anyone's training  program here?  please share your thoughts on Fasting.


I fast periodically (average every 3 months), but I do not treat it as part of my training.
Actually I avoid going to the practice on fasting days, because the activity is just too intense for so limited/non-existent energy intake.

My thoughts on fasting?
For me it is a great thing, but I do it purely for health benefits, not weight loss or management.

And I have a complete process of preparation to the fast and transition to "normal" eating afterwards and all of it takes around 2 weeks.


Anyway, your plan scares me.
Too much good is also bad. Too often and too prolonged fasting can lead to health problems, malnutrition, etc.

Then, what exactly do you want to eat on your "feasting" days? If you load too much carbs and give your body a low-high insulin roller-coaster, at some point it will stop cooperating with your wishes.

Another thing, eating fats does not make you fat. You could eat 2000+kcal of pure fat daily (but no carbs) and you would be thin as stick.


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## DougKenline

Martial D, so all bodybuilders have BDD?   And they are all sick people.  Ok.  Have a nice day.

I'll cut the doctors some slack but like Willie Nelson says, there's more old drunks than there are old Doctors so I think I'll just have me another round.

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Good little forum here.  Just killing time while I fast.   Don't need as much sleep when I'm fasting.  Feeling great!   Keep up the good work everybody!  Much impressed with all of the Martial Arts working going on here.  Enjoying the forum.  Don't want to be the big dummy around here, just venting some thoughts off against the sounding board while I work on my human experiment of one.


.


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## DougKenline

Anyway, your plan scares me.

Man some people get scared pretty easily.

Too often and too prolonged fasting   - what is too often, what is too long?

at some point it will stop cooperating with your wishes.-  at what point, and i don't think so, my only wish is that the fat goes bye bye and never comes back, and the fat is gone, and it is not coming back.

to be thin as a stick, i like that, they're calling me Bones at work and i'm loving it, Bones McCoy USS Enterprise.  Beats the hell out of Fatty.   Or how about Tub of Lard, did you ever get that one?

thanks for chiming in gucia.   it's all for a good conversation regarding the limits of fasting and feasting.  what are the limits of fasting.  like you say, it is a great thing

for me i like to work out in a fasted state.  it is like the cro-magnum man who has not had food for a few days and now finds himself having to climb up a hill to get some.

try it.  push yourself to work out when you are fasting.  that is a key component of my system.

.


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## DougKenline

gucia says fasting  is a great thing and  has fantastic health benefits

does fasting have health benefits?

nobody else here fasts eh?

I've got to believe there are some fasters out there.  maybe when i come back tomorrow.

.


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## DougKenline

Is there anybody here who's lost 130 lbs who would like to speak to the subject?


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## DougKenline

I have my annual physical exam with the Doctor on 5/2.

Give me a list of readings you would like to know, cholestoral and all bmi and all those indexes that you all like to keep track of....blood pressure, etc......whatever measurements you would like to see...i'll have my Doctor write them all down for me and i'll post them here for your review...

my bet is that every single health measurement you can think of, i'll be spot on.

my bet is my Doctor will tell me it is totally freaking amazing that I have lost 130 lbs since i my last visit and give me big congrats!   brothers, my health has improved CONSIDERABLY.

let me know what numbers you would like to see and that i should have my Doctor write down for me and i'll post them here.

cholesterol, sugar, blood pressure, testosterone levels...anything else?

then i'll do the same next year.

i'll bet my numbers beat a lot of ya'lls numbers.

.


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## DougKenline

i'll bet that 99% of the time when the doctor tells somebody one of their numbers is going sour and the patient says oh dear doctor what shall i ever do, the doc will tell them that they need to lose some weight and everything should be just fine........


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## DougKenline

give me a list guys, how can i measure how healthy i am?  I'll get the numbers from my Doctor and post them here.  then i'll challenge you all to post your numbers here.  let's see who wins.


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## DougKenline

In Chinese, the term kung fu (功夫) refers to any skill that is acquired through learning or practice. 

I think fasting is a skill that is acquired through learning and practice.

Fasting has a long history in Religion and elsewhere.

It is a thing that I am interested in.   

There are many reasons to fast.  Spiritual, political, personal, weight loss, health benefits and many others.  To me it seems to go hand in hand with Martial Arts.

.


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## DougKenline

Headhunter, you say You need some fat in your diet otherwise it's just not healthy.

I say if you have even 1 lb of excess fat on your body, then you will have some fat in your diet.

Even if you ate nothing for 48 hours you would still have had some fat in your diet because you would be eating your own body fat. 

Can anybody refute what I say?  I think that is a fact.  If you have any fat on your body, and you fast for 48 hours, at the end of that 48 hours your body will have consumed some fat, your own body fat.  you are eating yourself.  this is a fact.  can you refute this?  i think not.



.


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## Martial D

DougKenline said:


> Martial D, so all bodybuilders have BDD?   And they are all sick people.  Ok.  Have a nice day.



What are you talking about? What body builder alternates between eating badly and not eating at all?

You seem to have mental issues that are spilling over into your ability to hold a rational conversation. I hope you get the help you need.

Be well.


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## Headhunter

DougKenline said:


> Smoking is bad for you.  I like to smoke cigars.  Drinking is bad for you.  I like to drink.  Are there any Martial Artists who like to do and do do unhealthy things?  I think there are many.  It is a matter of choosing your own lifestyle.  I don't see that it is going to cause me any more problems than being 130 lbs overweight would cause me.
> 
> And just because Bruce Lee died at 32 does not mean he is not a good example to follow eh?  Dying at 32 was not the only thing he did in life.   Isn't it just a life choice?  I think you are only saying it is not what you would choose to do, but you can't say what I should choose to do.
> 
> Look at some of these eating challenge guys on youtube.  They eat enough to kill a horse.  That is what they choose to do.  I think it is a good discussion either way.  Time will tell how it goes.  Success for one may not be the same thing as success for another.
> 
> If I can work my plan successfully I will be happy.  I disagree that fasting then feasting is such a terrible thing.  I think I will be here next year still working the same plan and never having gone over 185 lbs.  I'll bet 50 cents on it.  Any takers?
> 
> I think nobody here likes to eat like I like to eat.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Hey if you want to do it then do it makes no difference to me but it's not smart


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## Headhunter

DougKenline said:


> Martial D, so all bodybuilders have BDD?   And they are all sick people.  Ok.  Have a nice day.
> 
> I'll cut the doctors some slack but like Willie Nelson says, there's more old drunks than there are old Doctors so I think I'll just have me another round.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback guys.  Good little forum here.  Just killing time while I fast.   Don't need as much sleep when I'm fasting.  Feeling great!   Keep up the good work everybody!  Much impressed with all of the Martial Arts working going on here.  Enjoying the forum.  Don't want to be the big dummy around here, just venting some thoughts off against the sounding board while I work on my human experiment of one.
> 
> 
> .


You do realise bodybuilders don't fast right they eat huge amounts of calories so that they can sustain their training and put the bulk on


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## gucia6

DougKenline said:


> Headhunter, you say You need some fat in your diet otherwise it's just not healthy.
> 
> I say if you have even 1 lb of excess fat on your body, then you will have some fat in your diet.
> 
> Even if you ate nothing for 48 hours you would still have had some fat in your diet because you would be eating your own body fat.
> 
> Can anybody refute what I say?  I think that is a fact.  If you have any fat on your body, and you fast for 48 hours, at the end of that 48 hours your body will have consumed some fat, your own body fat.  you are eating yourself.  this is a fact.  can you refute this?  i think not.
> .


hehehe, this is "interesting" misconception.

The mechanism of burning own body fat is "tiny" bit more complicated than that.

If your body is well trained and in state of ketosis, then there is a chance that your body will start burning fat within couple of hours of fasting. But to achieve state of ketosis might also take some time.

Otherwise it can take couple of days before body uses all circulating glucose and stored glycogen before the fat burning kicks in.


IMO you should research a bit more on the subject of fasting, understand what is actually happening in your body and plan the fast properly before attempting it. (and I mean available recent studies, not a booklet from about a 100 years ago  )


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## DougKenline

i disagree.  i went from 286 lbs to 158 lbs.  what have you done using your program?


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## DougKenline

Headhunter said:


> You do realise bodybuilders don't fast right they eat huge amounts of calories so that they can sustain their training and put the bulk on


 
right, that's what i do during my feast cycles.....i go in to full dive bodybuilding mode eating huge amounts of calories so i can sustain my tranining and put the bulk on......

.
.


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## DougKenline

there you go headhunter.......glad i didn't listen to you when i weighed 286 lbs.....i would probably still be a fat slob.......


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## DougKenline

Martial D said:


> What body builder alternates between eating badly and not eating at all?



probably all of them.....have you seen jay cutler and ronnie coleman in the offseason?  fatter than hell..........and fasting does not mean eating nothing at all.......try to read more closely...........did i go from 286 lbs to 158 lbs by not eating nothing at all for almost a year?   get a clue buddy.....be well.  i hope you seek out professional help for your issues.  good luck.


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## DougKenline

time for kung fu workout with push ups, kicking, jumping jacks and squats.   is there anybody here who does any fasting besides me and guicia?

i read books that are written far more than 100 years ago that are still true today.


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## Headhunter

DougKenline said:


> there you go headhunter.......glad i didn't listen to you when i weighed 286 lbs.....i would probably still be a fat slob.......


Okay buddy you do what your going to do and ignore everyone's advice which you asked for. Really makes no difference to me


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## Headhunter

DougKenline said:


> probably all of them.....have you seen jay cutler and ronnie coleman in the offseason?  fatter than hell..........and fasting does not mean eating nothing at all.......try to read more closely...........did i go from 286 lbs to 158 lbs by not eating nothing at all for almost a year?   get a clue buddy.....be well.  i hope you seek out professional help for your issues.  good luck.


You're a piece of work aren't you...you come here asking for advice then start insulting people when you get it


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## DougKenline

thank you for all of the negative comments guys.....i'll be working out harder and able to fast longer because of them......thank you......

and than you all for your positive comments, i'll be working out harder and able fast longer because of them......thank you...

and thank you all for your kind and thoughtful comments....i'll be working out harder and fasting longer because of them.....

and to anybody who has not put in their two cents worth, please post your thoughts on fasting........i'll look for some examples of fasting in the martial arts community and post anything i find here........investigating further at this time......

i am not the only person in the world who fasts, and not everybody in the world who fasts is mentally sick and needs to seek out professional help...................i would say probably everybody who has commented here so far has never been etremely overweight and probably has never had to cut 130 lbs........before i turned 45 years old i was that same way and may well have said the same things.......................i realize i'm getting a very narrow scope of opinions here on this thread but just trying it out to see if i can learn anything......

.


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## DougKenline

i'm not insulting anybody....i came here to have a conversation and try to learn something, i write out a long and thoughtful article and the first guy comes at me with two words, "you're sick."


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## DougKenline

i'm not insulting anybody.  where did i insult anybody?  time to go guys!  have a great day and thanks for the feedback.  Yea Buddy!!!!!


----------



## Headhunter

DougKenline said:


> i'm not insulting anybody....i came here to have a conversation and try to learn something, i write out a long and thoughtful article and the first guy comes at me with two words, "you're sick."


tbh I can see his point to me that sounds like an eating disorder starve yourself to the extreme which is dangerous then binge like crazy which is also dangerous.


----------



## Headhunter

Last thing I'll say on this because I've got better things to do. There's no need to starve and there's no need to binge. A healthy lifestyle is eating sensibly that means eating 3 balanced meals a day but that doesn't mean you can't eat any bad food there's nothing wrong with eating a pizza once a week or having 1 bar of chocolate or packet of crisps a day or eating some cake every now and then. That's not bad at all as long as you don't eat a whole cake every day of the week. I guarantee any doctor will give you the same advice, but tbh you won't listen so good luck with it I'm done


----------



## Tez3

Gary Turner
Gary Turner Getting Healthy With New Diet | FIGHT SPORTS

Gary has done a considerable amount of research into healthy eating for health as well as sports performance, he will also answer questions you may have but has no time for BS.

Starving/binging is an eating disorder, absolutely no doubt about it. 
The Effects of Starvation on Behavior: Implications for Dieting and Eating Disorders - River Centre Clinic
Bulimia: Regaining Your Intuitive Ability to Detect Hunger


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

First: from what you're describing you have an eating disorder. Could be bulimia, bdd, unspecified or something else (cant really say over a forum) but you've got something.

Second: this is not the place to ask for an appropriate amount of calories to eat, or how to fast in a healthy manner. Go to a nutritionist, discuss what you've been doing, and ask him/her for advice on what to do going forwards. Not (just) your PCP. 

Last: Weight loss is not always healthy. It generally is, but you telling us you lost 130 pounds does not tell any of us if what you are doing is healthy.


----------



## jobo

DougKenline said:


> It seems to me sometimes that my biggest enemy is fat.
> 
> I want to anihallate fat from my life.
> 
> I understand that for me this means reducing calories.
> 
> I have lost 130 lbs in the last year.
> 
> 55 yo 6' 4" tall.  Went from 286 to 158.  158 because my biggest motivation is to be able to eat again.  Per my plan I hit 158 then went on 2 week feast cycle and weighed-in at 183 after two solid weeks of heavenly bliss.
> 
> Now I'm back on program per plan until next feast cycle.  Then will repeat cycle until they bury me.  Living out the remainder of my days just a shade underweight.  And never being even anywhere close to slightly overweight again for as long as I live.
> 
> That is the plan.
> 
> And  it is going to require a great amount of self discipline during my fasting cycles.  Rewarded by all-you-can-eat no-menu-item-limit feast cycles.  I think over the course of 365 days there will be more fasting days than feasting days.  This is still an experiment and a work in progress.
> 
> But long story short, I think the Shaolin Monk mentality will play a large part in my success.  Beat the fat.  Kick the living stuff out of the fat.  Ban the fat from my life totally and completely.  Win the game ever day, weather feasting or fasting, by being either almost too skinny or just under my perfect weight or somewhere in between until the day they bury me.
> 
> Of course if I get hit with Parkinsons or Cancer or something then everything could go out the window in pretty quick order.  Hopefully I've got a few good years ahead of me still.  Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise.   I think exorcizing the fat from my life will help in that area too.
> 
> In the Shaolin Priest world, would a Grand Master tolerate any fat on his body?  It seems to me that it is a badge of honor to be nowhere near overweight, preferably to be almost too skinny.  Living proof that you have power over the weakness of overeating and having the layers of fat slowly overtake you as you weakly and lazily gorge on many hundreds and thousands of excess calories on any given day.
> 
> We all have seen the fat Budhist Priest statues.  I think that being fat like that is not acceptable in my Martial Arts world.
> 
> I understand we all come in different shapes and sizes and we all face different challenges and that I am very lucky to have the health and abilities that I enjoy every day.  But I am just throwing this out there to discuss these thoughts in my mind.  Of how I want to be almost too skinny for the rest of my life.  And still enjoy multiple week long periods of absolute King-Like feasting and gorging.   Enjoying the longer fasting cycles as much or more than I enjoy the shorter feasting cycles.  365 days of Nirvana and being somewhere between almost too skinny on the bottom end and not even close to being even remotely overweight on the top end.
> 
> In a way it's kind of like the bodybuilding scene, where guys and gals get overly obsessed with their physiques, but on the other hand it's a matter of personal pride, to know that whenever you are facing another individual in life, you automatically have the upper hand because your are in extremely fit physical condition and they are far, far, from it.   In the office and it business dealings etc.
> 
> And not just for those reasons, but for many, many reasons.  Health benefits.  Satisfaction of living in the zone every day.  Can't put in to words but just thought I'd throw this out there and see if anybody has anything to say about my thoughts and my plan.
> 
> Experience the clarity of mind when fasting.  Fasting while I study.  Fasting while I'm working out.   Fasting while I'm sleeping.  Enjoying the feeling that only fasting can bring.   The satisfaction that fasting is the obvious answer.  And I have it.  And I will never be fat again.
> 
> Others who are fat simply cannot endure the hunger that comes along with fasting.  If they could simply endure the hunger, eventually the fat will give up and go away.  It is simply a matter of mind over matter.  Much like becoming a Grand Master in the Martial Arts.  A Grand Master of Fasting.  Just look at him and you can see the Extreme Self Discipline that you know it takes, but you know you do not have.
> 
> Bottom line.  For me, I am convinced that Fasting is the Cure.  And the Kung Fu/Martial Arts Mindset is the only thing that can endure the hunger that is required to be endured.
> 
> Great forum guys.  Sorry if I'm out of place with my post.  Just trying to learn and up my training game.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Here's the picture of my plan that is in my mind.......


People arnt being particularly kind to you, but really what your doing isn't a sensible way forward, fasting has some merit to it, but that's 2days of fasting in a week, followed by healthy eating,not months of fasting followed by weeks of binging,

If your happy that fine, but your trying to tell others its the way forward and it clearly isn't.

Loosing weight from 290 lbs sound good, congrates on that, but washing up at 160 at 6'4sounds a step to far, its impossible to tell how healthy you are with out meeting you or at least seeing a picture, but at that height , even with single figure body fat you should weigh far more than that, if you have even moderately developed muscles. .

So its a fair conclusion you don't, which is not surprising, as hard excersise whilst starving yourself will eat muscle not fat, you do of course loose weight, muscles are heavy, but eventually you won't be able to stand up.

You measure fat content with calipers or your eye, not with a scale.

Fat consumed doesn't generally turn to fat on your body, its carbs that are the major culprits for that, you need fat to power your body at low intensity, you NEED to eat fat in your diet and you need protein, of which animal fat is a good source.

The bruse Lee look is a good look if you have Bruce's muscles, a lot less so if you look like a half starved pencil


----------



## Buka

Doug, I applaud your weight loss, I really do, I know how difficult the whole weight thing can be. But, you're six four. Maybe you should get a little shorter?
[humorous interlude]  Was that a target weight you had? Or was it random?  

I'm curious as to what your Kung Fu instructor thinks about your loss of weight.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DougKenline said:


> ok, well to the gentleman who starts off by calling names, i'll just say it sounds like you have some kind of disorder yourself, and have a nice day.


That's not calling names - it's naming what he sees. It's not personal.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DougKenline said:


> What kind of hell does it cause to your cholesterol, sugar, blood pressure, heart, circulatory system, organs of elimination,  and testosterone levels being 130 lbs overweight and eating hundreds and thousands of excess calories every day?
> 
> What is the minimum amount of calories that can be consumed and still be a healthy diet?
> 
> give me a number.  minimum amount of calories that can be consumed per day and still be healthy.
> 
> .


You are drawing a false dichotomy. There are choices other than your current plan or being 130 lbs. overweight.

The number of calories your body needs to function properly depends upon you, your metabolism, your health issues (genetics), your activity levels, etc. There's not a magic answer. There are good and bad sides to fasting (and a lot of different types of fasting, all of which seem to have different effects), and I know of no good side to bingeing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DougKenline said:


> I think nobody here likes to eat like I like to eat.


I think you have no idea what and how some of us like to eat, nor whether any or all of us have made conscious changes to our diet to lose or maintain weight.


----------



## mrt2

You know, a picture, or better yet a video of you training while fasting would really drive home your point.  Are you able to train at a high level on no food?  Prove it.  Res Ipsa Loquitur or in English, The thing speaks for itself.


----------



## Martial D

mrt2 said:


> You know, a picture, or better yet a video of you training while fasting would really drive home your point.  Are you able to train at a high level on no food?  Prove it.  Res Ipsa Loquitur or in English, The thing speaks for itself.


Nowhere in this post did he mention training in anything or practicing martial arts.  If what he is saying is true and he is really doing these starve binge cycles, I highly doubt he'd have the energy or strength. Nobody would.

What he did say is that he is taking the Shaolin Kung Fu mentality to do battle with hunger and fat. I think he does fat Fu.


----------



## mrt2

Martial D said:


> Nowhere in this post did he mention training in anything or practicing martial arts.  If what he is saying is true and he is really doing these starve binge cycles, I highly doubt he'd have the energy or strength. Nobody would.
> 
> What he did say is that he is taking the Shaolin Kung Fu mentality to do battle with hunger and fat. I think he does fat Fu.



Actually, he did. 


DougKenline said:


> time for kung fu workout with push ups, kicking, jumping jacks and squats.   is there anybody here who does any fasting besides me and guicia?
> 
> i read books that are written far more than 100 years ago that are still true today.



Come to think of it, I think martial arts training would be hard to do well either on the feast or the famine phases of this plan.  Who wants to do martial arts after eating a bunch of crap all day?   The energy is all going towards digestion and, maybe, fat storage.  In the short time I am back at MA, I have found I do much better eating a bit less food than I might normally eat.


----------



## WaterGal

This seems like it's too extreme to be a healthy approach. Many diets will suggest that you eat healthy most of the time, and have a "cheat day" or "cheat meal" every so often where you can eat whatever you want and let off some steam. But that's very different from fasting for weeks until you're dramatically underweight and then binge-eating for weeks to put the weight back on. That seems like a form of bulimia.


----------



## mrt2

DougKenline said:


> It seems to me sometimes that my biggest enemy is fat.
> 
> *I want to anihallate fat from my life.*
> 
> I understand that for me this means reducing calories.
> 
> I have lost 130 lbs in the last year.
> 
> 55 yo 6' 4" tall.  Went from 286 to 158.  158 because my biggest motivation is to be able to eat again.  Per my plan I hit 158 then went on 2 week feast cycle and weighed-in at 183 after two solid weeks of heavenly bliss.
> 
> Now I'm back on program per plan until next feast cycle.  Then will repeat cycle until they bury me.  Living out the remainder of my days just a shade underweight.  And never being even anywhere close to slightly overweight again for as long as I live.
> 
> That is the plan.
> 
> And  it is going to require a great amount of self discipline during my fasting cycles.  Rewarded by all-you-can-eat no-menu-item-limit feast cycles.  I think over the course of 365 days there will be more fasting days than feasting days.  This is still an experiment and a work in progress.
> 
> But long story short, I think the Shaolin Monk mentality will play a large part in my success.  Beat the fat.  Kick the living stuff out of the fat.  Ban the fat from my life totally and completely.  Win the game ever day, weather feasting or fasting, by being either almost too skinny or just under my perfect weight or somewhere in between until the day they bury me.
> 
> Of course if I get hit with Parkinsons or Cancer or something then everything could go out the window in pretty quick order.  Hopefully I've got a few good years ahead of me still.  Good Lord willing and the creek don't rise.   I think exorcizing the fat from my life will help in that area too.
> 
> In the Shaolin Priest world, would a Grand Master tolerate any fat on his body?  It seems to me that it is a badge of honor to be nowhere near overweight, preferably to be almost too skinny.  Living proof that you have power over the weakness of overeating and having the layers of fat slowly overtake you as you weakly and lazily gorge on many hundreds and thousands of excess calories on any given day.
> 
> We all have seen the fat Budhist Priest statues.  I think that being fat like that is not acceptable in my Martial Arts world.
> 
> I understand we all come in different shapes and sizes and we all face different challenges and that I am very lucky to have the health and abilities that I enjoy every day.  But I am just throwing this out there to discuss these thoughts in my mind.  Of how I want to be almost too skinny for the rest of my life.  And still enjoy multiple week long periods of absolute King-Like feasting and gorging.   Enjoying the longer fasting cycles as much or more than I enjoy the shorter feasting cycles.  365 days of Nirvana and being somewhere between almost too skinny on the bottom end and not even close to being even remotely overweight on the top end.
> 
> In a way it's kind of like the bodybuilding scene, where guys and gals get overly obsessed with their physiques, but on the other hand it's a matter of personal pride, to know that whenever you are facing another individual in life, you automatically have the upper hand because your are in extremely fit physical condition and they are far, far, from it.   In the office and it business dealings etc.
> 
> And not just for those reasons, but for many, many reasons.  Health benefits.  Satisfaction of living in the zone every day.  Can't put in to words but just thought I'd throw this out there and see if anybody has anything to say about my thoughts and my plan.
> 
> Experience the clarity of mind when fasting.  Fasting while I study.  Fasting while I'm working out.   Fasting while I'm sleeping.  Enjoying the feeling that only fasting can bring.   The satisfaction that fasting is the obvious answer.  And I have it.  And I will never be fat again.
> 
> Others who are fat simply cannot endure the hunger that comes along with fasting.  If they could simply endure the hunger, eventually the fat will give up and go away.  It is simply a matter of mind over matter.  Much like becoming a Grand Master in the Martial Arts.  A Grand Master of Fasting.  Just look at him and you can see the Extreme Self Discipline that you know it takes, but you know you do not have.
> 
> Bottom line.  For me, I am convinced that Fasting is the Cure.  And the Kung Fu/Martial Arts Mindset is the only thing that can endure the hunger that is required to be endured.
> 
> Great forum guys.  Sorry if I'm out of place with my post.  Just trying to learn and up my training game.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Here's the picture of my plan that is in my mind.......



"I want to annihilate fat."  or in another post from this thread, you said, you found "The final solution."  

Pretty frightening stuff, given that fat as essential a part of our bodies as muscle, or water, or blood.  Question.  Who came up with the expression "The Final Solution?"


----------



## Martial D

mrt2 said:


> Actually, he did.
> 
> 
> Come to think of it, I think martial arts training would be hard to do well either on the feast or the famine phases of this plan.  Who wants to do martial arts after eating a bunch of crap all day?   The energy is all going towards digestion and, maybe, fat storage.  In the short time I am back at MA, I have found I do much better eating a bit less food than I might normally eat.


Yes he used the words Kung Fu a lot. I'm not sure he uses it in the same way as say, someone that actually does a style of Chinese 'kung fu' if he did, he probably wouldn't be using the words Kung Fu, but instead the name of the actual style.


----------



## mrt2

Martial D said:


> Yes he used the words Kung Fu a lot. I'm not sure he uses it in the same way as say, someone that actually does a style of Chinese 'kung fu' if he did, he probably wouldn't be using the words Kung Fu, but instead the name of the actual style.


I hadn't noticed that because, frankly, I am not all that familiar with Chinese Martial Arts beyond watching old Bruce Lee movies.

I propose putting the question directly to OP.  What style of kung fu to you train in?  Do you have a teacher?  What does he, or she think of your extreme eating regime?


----------



## jobo

mrt2 said:


> "Question.  Who came up with the expression "The Final Solution?"


Well certainly NOT the Germans, their phrase was " endlosung " which was roughly translated in to English as the far more dramatic sounding " final solution" so probably some news paper ?


----------



## DougKenline

Thanks for the feedback!  I'm reading them as I can and will respond ASAP!  Keep up the good work guys!  Yea buddy!!


----------



## DougKenline

mrt2 said:


> Pretty frightening stuff



oh Gawd here we go again.....


----------



## DougKenline

Buka said:


> Doug, I applaud your weight loss, I really do, I know how difficult the whole weight thing can be. But, you're six four. Maybe you should get a little shorter?
> [humorous interlude] Was that a target weight you had? Or was it random?
> 
> I'm curious as to what your Kung Fu instructor thinks about your loss of weight.




Thanks Barn!  LOL funny!   i haven't asked them....i follow a few guys on youtube.....


----------



## DougKenline

regarding The Final Solution.....come on guys...humor.......laugh it up a little........you all have your own final solutions  and you are working them as i type this..........i just came up with that name for my system because in fact it is the last program that i will ever need......and we'll see who lives longer.........anybody here 55 years old.....somebody says they want a picture of me and nobody here is putting up any pictures of them ...........i got me a good before and after pic and and a good pick at 183 lbs on first upswing but why put them up so you all can laugh me down from behind your cloaked identities........anybody on here use their real name........i guess this is the way people like to operate online behind a mask......now i remember why i left all social media forums ten years ago...........


----------



## DougKenline

No problem guys.....you all would have ganged up against Rich Piana too and he would have stood his ground.  R.I.P Rich.

i'll read more and reply more as i can.......i appreciate the feedback guys......also talking to others at the office and gym they are all against my plan.........i say go for what you know and best of luck to you!


.


----------



## DougKenline

mrt2 said:


> You know, a picture, or better yet a video of you training while fasting would really drive home your point. Are you able to train at a high level on no food?



oh mrt2 the man in lurking in the shadows behind his mrt2 mask steps up with a challenge.......let's see one of you big guy..........let's say you hadn't had anything to eat in 5 days.......at that point getting out of bed and getting dressed would be considered a high level of training...........a high level of training is traning at the highest level you can under the current conditions......


.


----------



## DougKenline

mrt2 said:


> I propose putting the question directly to OP. What style of kung fu to you train in? Do you have a teacher? What does he, or she think of your extreme eating regime?




i like this little quotemaker thing for easy reply........it's pretty cool.....i like the live chat rooms kind of better in a way though.......anybody know of any good martial arts live chat rooms?......i'm in a good one on fasting over at Slack.....Slack is really coming on strong this year.....

no i haven't asked the guys i follow on youtube, however, they all do use their real names and show their faces whoever you are.......


----------



## DougKenline

Martial D said:


> I think he does fat Fu.



lol fat Fu!  beautiful.  whoever you are.


----------



## DougKenline

gpseymour said:


> That's not calling names - it's naming what he sees. It's not personal.



ok gp....what is fat Fu?

i don't take it personal guys, i'm just having fun.....hopefully we'll all meet up again in another thread and have a good old time......

.


----------



## CB Jones

I actually like the name Final Solution for your program.  I think it will be a fix for the problem...........the problem of healthy living.

Good Luck.


----------



## DougKenline

Buka said:


> Doug, I applaud your weight loss



thank you Buka!  the only complement on my weight loss in this whole entire thread!  thank you!

.


----------



## DougKenline

CB Jones said:


> Good Luck.



Thanks CB!  Same to you!


----------



## DougKenline

CB Jones said:


> .the problem of healthy living.



i've never had that problem.......and time will tell.........i asked for you to list me any measurement that you use to measure healthy and i will get the numbers from my Doctor on 5/2 and post them here..........and you post yours here and maybe we will both learn something.


----------



## DougKenline

WaterGal said:


> This seems like it's too extreme to be a healthy approach.



i'm sure you'd say the same thing to that guy in Alaska who swims under the ice in the ocean with no air and only some cut off jeans on..............look him up on youtube..........you say tomato i say tomatto......


----------



## DougKenline

Tez3 said:


> Starving/binging is an eating disorder, absolutely no doubt about it.



ok so i'll call it something else then, because i'm not starving and i'm not binging.....you say tomato i say tomotto....give me some numbers you use to measure healthy and i'll post my numbers here and you post your numbers here.....but i may as well be talking to a wall as some made up identity....how many names do you go by out here?......you got multiple personalities probably..............at least i  only have my one personality...............you could all be the same guy as far as i know except for CB!   Thanks CB!  Keep up the good work!  Love the videos!


----------



## CB Jones

On a serious note:

IMHO, it seems like you are going too extreme.

I think you would get better results enjoying a nice large meal then fasting a couple days.  The rest of the time be more active and exercise/train.  At 6'4 maintaining 185-200 lbs would be a good healthy weight.

Also, you can eat good and keep your calories around 2200 per day....you just have to teach yourself.  I would think around 2200 calories for someone being moderately active and exercising would be a good starting spot.

You could also do intermittent fasting from 9 p.m. till 11 a.m....I know a few people your age that has had a lot of success doing that.


----------



## DougKenline

gpseymour said:


> You are drawing a false dichotomy. There are choices other than your current plan or being 130 lbs. overweight.
> 
> The number of calories your body needs to function properly depends upon you, your metabolism, your health issues (genetics), your activity levels, etc. There's not a magic answer. There are good and bad sides to fasting (and a lot of different types of fasting, all of which seem to have different effects), and I know of no good side to bingeing.



Thanks GP!  Another real guy!  This is getting better all the time.  In fact it just doesn't get any better than this!


----------



## DougKenline

Headhunter said:


> Okay buddy you do what your going to do and ignore everyone's advice which you asked for. Really makes no difference to me



was asking for opinions and feedback no advice whoever you are.

Just having fun. Guys.  Have to live a little eh?   Just killing time before dinner.


----------



## DougKenline

Live chat format is better than this format.   This format isn't fast enough for me.  Anybody know of any good Martial Arts live chat forums?  Cisco Spark is the best.  Then comes Slack.  And Discord is pretty cool too.  Just can't seem to find any good searchable indexes and Google seems to turn up nothing.


----------



## DougKenline

To me this is like verbal sparring.  Nothing personal.  You take some hits and you get tougher eh?  I like live chat sparring better though.  If anybody wants to meet up in my Cisco Spark Martial Arts Fasting Talk Live Chat Room leave your email and I'll send you an invite.  You can really beat the hell out of me in there.


.


----------



## DougKenline

CB Jones said:


> Also, you can eat good and keep your calories around 2200 per day....you just have to teach yourself. I would think around 2200 calories for someone being moderately active and exercising would be a good starting spot.




whoa 2200 calories per day!?  well maybe i'll taper off more in that direction as time goes along......Practice without pressure....make mistakes....correct action.....

Thanks  CB!


----------



## DougKenline

CB Jones said:


> At 6'4 maintaining 185-200 lbs would be a good healthy weight.



ok but the gut will be coming back out at that weight....maybe if i keep working on my core i can get there......


----------



## DougKenline

CB Jones said:


> You could also do intermittent fasting from 9 p.m. till 11 a.m....I know a few people your age that has had a lot of success doing that.



ok now we're talking......thanks CB.........i'll chew on that for awhile......


----------



## DougKenline

i lose 130 lbs  and only one guy says good job.


----------



## DougKenline

CB Jones said:


> I think you would get better results enjoying a nice large meal then fasting a couple days.



CB, on these couple of days of fasting, how many calories per day?

When you say a couple of days of fasting do yo mean a couple of days on zero calories?


----------



## DougKenline

CB Jones said:


> IMHO, it seems like you are going too extreme.



i like that...in his humble opinion.........i think this is all opinion....my opinion and other's opinions..........i have said, tell me the numbers you use to measure healthy and i'll bet i'm spot on every measurement......and then the interpretation of those measurements will involve a bit of opinion and speculation as well..........so i guess we're all gonna be who we're gonna  be, so what do you do with good old boys like me?


----------



## CB Jones

from 25 years old to last year(40 years),  I was 6'2" 200 lbs with an athletic build

Doing light cardio 3 mornings a week, moderate intensity weight lifting 6 nights a week, fasting intermittently from 10 pm til 11 am 7 days per week and averaging under 2400 calories per day eating a balanced meal.....I maintained my weight pretty easily.  And still ate good.....steak, fish, pork, chicken, etc

200 lbs to me is my ideal weight.

Disclaimer:  an injured knee last year plus a injured back early this year has completely thrown me off and I have gained more than I would like (up to 230 lbs)

But my knee is good now, and hopefully I get my back feeling better in the next month or two and I can get back to my program.

In the past I only had to alter my diet to averaging under 2000 calories per day to lose weight


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DougKenline said:


> regarding The Final Solution.....come on guys...humor.......laugh it up a little........you all have your own final solutions  and you are working them as i type this..........i just came up with that name for my system because in fact it is the last program that i will ever need......and we'll see who lives longer.........anybody here 55 years old.....somebody says they want a picture of me and nobody here is putting up any pictures of them ...........i got me a good before and after pic and and a good pick at 183 lbs on first upswing but why put them up so you all can laugh me down from behind your cloaked identities........anybody on here use their real name........i guess this is the way people like to operate online behind a mask......now i remember why i left all social media forums ten years ago...........


Actually, a few of us do use our real names. And interact like real people.


----------



## DougKenline

thanks CB. good job.  keep it up!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DougKenline said:


> Live chat format is better than this format.   This format isn't fast enough for me.  Anybody know of any good Martial Arts live chat forums?  Cisco Spark is the best.  Then comes Slack.  And Discord is pretty cool too.  Just can't seem to find any good searchable indexes and Google seems to turn up nothing.


Live chat doesn’t allow as many participants. And you can’t catch up after you’ve been gone. It really loses a lot of chance for deep discussion.


----------



## CB Jones

gpseymour said:


> Actually, a few of us do use our real names. And interact like real people.



Maybe...I'm still not sure if maybe I'm having a psychotic episode and ya'll and this board are just hallucinations in my mind....


----------



## DougKenline

Right Gerry and I gave you props for that above.  Good job.  Keep up the good work!  I'm flying in to RDU  next weekend for a big test.  Smokies BBQ is on the schedule.

10800 Chapel Hill Rd, Morrisville, NC 27560

Smokey's BBQ Shack


----------



## DougKenline

gpseymour said:


> Live chat doesn’t allow as many participants. And you can’t catch up after you’ve been gone. It really loses a lot of chance for deep discussion.



Yea that's true Gerry.  Both have their pros and cons.  I agree with your point for sure.  A time to slow things down and give something some thought.  Good point.  Well taken.


----------



## DougKenline

CB Jones said:


> hallucinations in my mind



lol cb, true


----------



## CB Jones

DougKenline said:


> ok but the gut will be coming back out at that weight....maybe if i keep working on my core i can get there......



If you don't have the gut now......Then the weight you put on will be good weight....Muscle, Bone, and Skin with no gut....plus if you see some gut starting just adjust more activity and/or less average calories


The key is exercise.


----------



## CB Jones

DougKenline said:


> CB, on these couple of days of fasting, how many calories per day?
> 
> When you say a couple of days of fasting do yo mean a couple of days on zero calories?



I never really fasted for whole days.  I just tracked my calories daily and weekly and tried to keep it between 2000-2400 on average.  If I knew I was going somewhere (family gathering, party, etc...) and was going to have a spike in calories I would drop my caloric intake to between 1200-1500 calories the day before and after and maybe add a day of cardio.


----------



## Martial D

I guess this latest spastic burst of postings clears up the fact this guy hasn't the first clue about martial arts, let alone practices one. 

On that note, no more indulging in the crazy juice for me. Best of luck, patient people.


----------



## DougKenline

There's guys who run ultra-marathons.  These guys train on 20 or 30 miles of road work 7 days a week.  Some here would say oh that's scary.  Oh that's extreme.  Oh that's not healthy.   Why do these ultra-marathoners do it?  Why do they push themselves to these extremes when everybody they talk to says oh that's scary.  Oh that's really frightening?  They do it to see if they can do it.

Why do people climb Mount Everest?  Do you think everybody they know doesn't tell them oh that's extreme?  Oh that's scary?  Oh that is really frightening?   Tell your wife you're going to climb Mount Everest next year and see what she says.

Do you think you could climb Mount Everest or run ultra-marathons?  What are your goals?  Are your goals extreme or do you prefer mediocre goals that are not so scary?

Ultra Marathon Race Calendar, Reviews and Ultra Running News

Leadman & Leadwoman - Leadville Race Series

*The human body is capable of amazing things,*
*you just have to be ready.*

Whether you are training for a 30k or a 100 mile (or more), we can help.

Ultra Marathon Coaching by Life Time Run | Featuring Coach Ryan Krol

Any runners here want to speak to this?

Nearly all of those contenders trained more than 100 miles a week!

UltRunR - The Long Run

Some of the guys on here must be almost ready to wet their drawers in fear as they read the above.

*Running on Empty*

The ultimate endurance athlete, Marshall Ulrich has run more than one hundred foot races averaging over one hundred miles each, completed twelve expedition-length adventure races, and ascended the seven summits— including Mount Everest. Yet his run from California to New York—the equivalent of running two marathons and a 10k every day for nearly two months straight—proved to be his most challenging effort yet.


https://www.amazon.com/Running-Empty-Ultramarathoners-Record-Setting-Across/dp/1583334904


*Born to Run*

Isolated by Mexico's deadly Copper Canyons, the blissful Tarahumara Indians have honed the ability to run hundreds of miles without rest or injury.

ever-growing numbers of ultra-runners are pushing their bodies to the limit


https://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307279189


----------



## Tez3

DougKenline said:


> ok so i'll call it something else then, because i'm not starving and i'm not binging.....you say tomato i say tomotto....give me some numbers you use to measure healthy and i'll post my numbers here and you post your numbers here.....but i may as well be talking to a wall as some made up identity....how many names do you go by out here?......you got multiple personalities probably..............at least i  only have my one personality...............you could all be the same guy as far as i know except for CB!   Thanks CB!  Keep up the good work!  Love the videos!




Nope it's only me, and I'm really bored by you now. You think you are unique but really you are just a bog standard attention seeker. Have fun, and try not to take too much of whatever you are on.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DougKenline said:


> There's guys who run ultra-marathons.  These guys train on 20 or 30 miles of road work 7 days a week.  Some here would say oh that's scary.  Oh that's extreme.  Oh that's not healthy.   Why do these ultra-marathoners do it?  Why do they push themselves to these extremes when everybody they talk to says oh that's scary.  Oh that's really frightening?  They do it to see if they can do it.
> 
> Why do people climb Mount Everest?  Do you think everybody they know doesn't tell them oh that's extreme?  Oh that's scary?  Oh that is really frightening?   Tell your wife you're going to climb Mount Everest next year and see what she says.
> 
> Do you think you could climb Mount Everest or run ultra-marathons?  What are your goals?  Are your goals extreme or do you prefer mediocre goals that are not so scary?
> 
> Ultra Marathon Race Calendar, Reviews and Ultra Running News
> 
> Leadman & Leadwoman - Leadville Race Series
> 
> *The human body is capable of amazing things,*
> *you just have to be ready.*
> 
> Whether you are training for a 30k or a 100 mile (or more), we can help.
> 
> Ultra Marathon Coaching by Life Time Run | Featuring Coach Ryan Krol
> 
> Any runners here want to speak to this?
> 
> Nearly all of those contenders trained more than 100 miles a week!
> 
> UltRunR - The Long Run
> 
> Some of the guys on here must be almost ready to wet their drawers in fear as they read the above.
> 
> *Running on Empty*
> 
> The ultimate endurance athlete, Marshall Ulrich has run more than one hundred foot races averaging over one hundred miles each, completed twelve expedition-length adventure races, and ascended the seven summits— including Mount Everest. Yet his run from California to New York—the equivalent of running two marathons and a 10k every day for nearly two months straight—proved to be his most challenging effort yet.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Running-Empty-Ultramarathoners-Record-Setting-Across/dp/1583334904
> 
> 
> *Born to Run*
> 
> Isolated by Mexico's deadly Copper Canyons, the blissful Tarahumara Indians have honed the ability to run hundreds of miles without rest or injury.
> 
> ever-growing numbers of ultra-runners are pushing their bodies to the limit
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307279189


You are using extreme athletes as an excuse for bingeing.


----------



## jobo

DougKenline said:


> There's guys who run ultra-marathons.  These guys train on 20 or 30 miles of road work 7 days a week.  Some here would say oh that's scary.  Oh that's extreme.  Oh that's not healthy.   Why do these ultra-marathoners do it?  Why do they push themselves to these extremes when everybody they talk to says oh that's scary.  Oh that's really frightening?  They do it to see if they can do it.
> 
> Why do people climb Mount Everest?  Do you think everybody they know doesn't tell them oh that's extreme?  Oh that's scary?  Oh that is really frightening?   Tell your wife you're going to climb Mount Everest next year and see what she says.
> 
> Do you think you could climb Mount Everest or run ultra-marathons?  What are your goals?  Are your goals extreme or do you prefer mediocre goals that are not so scary?
> 
> Ultra Marathon Race Calendar, Reviews and Ultra Running News
> 
> Leadman & Leadwoman - Leadville Race Series
> 
> *The human body is capable of amazing things,*
> *you just have to be ready.*
> 
> Whether you are training for a 30k or a 100 mile (or more), we can help.
> 
> Ultra Marathon Coaching by Life Time Run | Featuring Coach Ryan Krol
> 
> Any runners here want to speak to this?
> 
> Nearly all of those contenders trained more than 100 miles a week!
> 
> UltRunR - The Long Run
> 
> Some of the guys on here must be almost ready to wet their drawers in fear as they read the above.
> 
> *Running on Empty*
> 
> The ultimate endurance athlete, Marshall Ulrich has run more than one hundred foot races averaging over one hundred miles each, completed twelve expedition-length adventure races, and ascended the seven summits— including Mount Everest. Yet his run from California to New York—the equivalent of running two marathons and a 10k every day for nearly two months straight—proved to be his most challenging effort yet.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Running-Empty-Ultramarathoners-Record-Setting-Across/dp/1583334904
> 
> 
> *Born to Run*
> 
> Isolated by Mexico's deadly Copper Canyons, the blissful Tarahumara Indians have honed the ability to run hundreds of miles without rest or injury.
> 
> ever-growing numbers of ultra-runners are pushing their bodies to the limit
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307279189


are you intending to run a marathon or climb mount everest ? if not I don't see what this has to do with your extreme diet. if so then your diet will quite possibly lead to your untimely demise.

you seem to be attacking people here for being " healthy" happy and normal. 

what is your motivation for your diet régime ? I get the impression that its aesthetics your after rather than athletic performance. I also suspect that you don't look aesthetical pleasing, very tall very thin middle aged people generally dont


----------



## pdg

I'm not getting into the diet style debate, it's not worth my time...

Focussing purely on weight is hugely flawed. Weight by itself means nothing really.

I do think you have a body self image problem - but hey, so do I. I'm not happy with my wibbly belly...

Over the past couple of years I've taken 3 inches off my waist, but I've gained weight (maybe 15 lbs or so, estimate based on the fact I always hovered around a certain weight, the other day was the first time I've weighed myself for well over 2 years).

So, I'm heavier even though I'm slimmer - it's a different sort of weight.

Thing is, I've decided to go a different path - fasting for more than a day gives me a headache so that's out.

I like the food I like - I like burgers, I like pizza. I don't want to 'deny' myself. I'd rather put more effort into burning off what I put in over cutting what I put in. I still end up with a rough calorific balance or slight deficit.

Oh, and that's an assumption by me about me... I don't count calories (or anything else) because I can't be bothered. That said, I have done it twice out of curiosity - I had a ~4,000cal day and a ~6,000cal day, and those weren't far out of ordinary. I'm quite sure I regularly go higher...


----------



## DougKenline

Tez3 said:


> Nope it's only me, and I'm really bored by you now. You think you are unique but really you are just a bog standard attention seeker. Have fun, and try not to take too much of whatever you are on.



ok whoever you are, go snort some more coke......rolling my eyes........

go talk to your other cloaked identity friends who feel the need to hide behind some made up name, half of them probably work for the government and are just sitting there killing time until their shift ends anyway.  and some of them are the same individual getting his rocks off thinking he's really fooling somebody.

I do like this quote you use in your signature line though, thank you.

"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."  Moshe Dayan

I like what Gerry say about this format versus the Live Chat format. 

"Live chat doesn’t allow as many participants. And you can’t catch up after you’ve been gone. It really loses a lot of chance for deep discussion."

But apparently the software will not allow me to grab his quote from another window and insert it in to this reply from this window.  I like having two windows open so I can go back a few pages and read the thread in one window, the when I see something I like, Alt-tab back to this window and say something about it.  Still getting used to this software.  So far I'm starting to like it. 

As is quite obvious from reading back in the thread, I was gunning for a Live Chat type of conversation having been in full-dive Live Chat mode with my study buddies for the last few months.   When I first jumped in here and saw that there was actually some activity, I thought to myself, oh goodie, I finally found some place where I can get something close to a live chat with some Martial Arts type of folks. 

I started off with a long thoughtful deep discussion kind of post and then blasted right in to Live Chat mode craving some of that good old Live Chat back and forth.  But now I am starting to see that both formats have their pluses and minuses. 

Like Gerry says, there are some pluses to this format.  And I agree.  I will think about this some more and post some more after I have thought about it some more.

Also, if I'm going to write out a longer post, I will try to see if there is some way to save a draft of my post before I hit the publish button.  That way it will not go out unfinished and be constantly changing for a few minutes while I finish the post.

As you can see, I first replied to Tez3 or whoever they are, and was going to go back in to my spastic burst mode of posting, but then I started thinking about what Gerry said. So I decided I would just edit this post.   So it may have changed since you last read it.

I think this format could be quite enjoyable.  I'll give it some thought and come back to it again later.   Perhaps a format that was a combination of this deep discussion format and the Live Chat sparring format.   Where if somebody saw you were in the room, the could buzz you with a Live Chat request and you could come back with a "running late, can't now" or a "ok buddy, let's go!" reply depending on your circumstances.

To be continued...


----------



## Headhunter

DougKenline said:


> ok whoever you are, go snort some more coke......rolling my eyes........
> 
> go talk to your other cloaked identity friends who feel the need to hide behind some made up name, half of them probably work for the government and are just sitting there killing time until their shift ends anyway.  and some of them are the same individual getting his rocks off thinking he's really fooling somebody.
> 
> I do like this quote you use in your signature line though, thank you.
> 
> "If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."  Moshe Dayan


Hey if you don't like this forum you know where the close button is on your computer. Not that it matters you'll probably be banned soon. Anyway this is a martial art forum not a diet forum.

Hope you sort your issues out buddy


----------



## DougKenline

Another 600 calorie day.  Now starting 36 hour fast.

I think diet and Martial Arts go hand in hand.  I think no serious student of the Martial Arts would not include diet as part of their training program.

pdg says "I do think you have a body self image problem - but hey, so do I."

Ok well I can take that.  No problem with that pdg.  Whoever you are.  Good job with your program.

Regarding "fasting for more than a day gives me a headache ".

Running for more that 100 miles per week probably makes every inch of your body hurt like hell, but these guys keep running.

Regarding "I like the food I like - I like burgers, I like pizza."

Ok now we're talking!

Regarding "I had a ~4,000cal day and a ~6,000cal day".

I don't count calories on my eat days, A large, 14-inch hand-tossed pepperoni pizza from Domino's has 2,370 calories.  Village Inn - Ultimate Skillet W/turkey Sausage, Bacon, 3 Small Pancakes and maple syrup 2,000 calories.  One bag of Nestle Toll House butterscotch morsels 1,700 calories.  1/2 gallon milk 900 calories.  Can of Coca-Cola 150 calories.  I'd say 6,000 calories is a pretty good day.  I probably get close and maybe even go over that on my eat days.  But I don't count calories on my eat days and have no desire to count calories on my eat days.

On my eat days I just eat.  I don't count.  And I don't weigh-in.  I only weigh-in on damage check day after I am done eating and ready to get back on the program.

I think focussing purely on weight and calories is the best answer for me.  I have no time or desire to look at any other numbers.  I'll let my Doctor look at all of my other numbers and I won't bother looking at them unless my Doctor tells me they are off.  Last visit they said my cholesterol was high.  But I weighed 286 lbs at the time.  I will be interested to see what they say on my next visit 5/2.

My bet is Doc will tell me that all of my numbers are excellent and great job on losing all of that weight.

jobo says "I also suspect that you don't look aesthetical pleasing, very tall very thin middle aged people generally dont."

Well I'm sure I'm not as good looking as you are jobo.  From your profile pic it is obvious that you are movie star material.

jobo or whoever he/she is says "what is your motivation for your diet régime?"

I have many motivations.  Marshall Ulrich ran ultra marathons because his wife died of cancer.  I've got my reasons too.

In _Running on Empty _he shares the gritty backstory of his run and the excruciating punishments he endured on the road. Ulrich also reaches back nearly thirty years to when the death of his first wife drove him to run from his pain.

https://www.amazon.com/Running-Empty-Ultramarathoners-Record-Setting-Across/dp/1583334904


Gerry, thanks for the reasoned commentary and feedback.

Regarding "You are using extreme athletes as an excuse for bingeing.."

Maybe so.

Martial D says, "this guy hasn't the first clue about martial arts".

I am here to learn.  Tell me what martial arts is about.

I think martial arts is about learning.  About keeping in good physical condition.  Which for many means working on their diet.  I think it's about a lot of things.  It probably is even a religion to some.  But just like in any religion, members claiming the same religion will argue among themselves.

CB, thanks for the feedback and good job with the videos, keep up the good work.

Regarding, "from 25 years old to last year(40 years), I was 6'2" 200 lbs with an athletic build"

Yea  I could eat anything and everything and not gain a pound until I  was about 45 years old.  Roy at work is 35 years old 6' 2' tall and 130 lbs.  He says he can't gain weight no matter what he does.  I tell him man go out and get yourself a double cheeseburger and he says "I'm just not hungry."  LOL.  Everybody has their own circumstances.  Andrew at work is 400 lbs and he sits at his desk eating buckets of fried chicken and Honey Buns like there's no tomorrow without a care in the world.   They had to get a special chair that was big enough for him to sit in.

Regarding, "200 lbs to me is my ideal weight."  Hope your knee gets better.  Get-R-Done.

Regarding, "In the past I only had to alter my diet to averaging under 2000 calories per day to lose weight."

Wow 2000 calories per day.  I could just imagine what kind of meal plans I could put together on a 2,000 calorie per day budget.  On my 600 calorie per day for 5 days then 36 hour fast program I lose 2 to 3 lbs per week usually.  Weigh-in on Monday morning after the fast, eat all day Monday, then back on the program starting when alarm goes off Tuesday morning.

I'm contemplating skipping this Monday Feast and pushing it till next Friday.

Next Friday starts a one week Feast Cycle as I will be flying to Raleigh, North Carolina to take a test.  Friday I'll pile up about 20 boxes worth of Little Debbies on the goodies table in the office, grab a half gallon of milk and get things started.  I sit right close by the goodies table and all during my fasting days I have to sit there and watch them all bring in the goodies while I say no thank you.  On Friday I will enjoy seeing them all squirming around the big pile of Little Debbies thinking to themselves oh I might have just one but it's going to ruin my diet.  And then watching them give in and eat 5 or 6.  Oh yea buddy that is fun times!  And then I'll get up and grab about 5 or 6 more for myself and toss Andrew a Honey Bun from across the room so he doesn't have to get up.

Everything is going great here guys!   Keep up the good work and thanks  for the  great forum!


.


----------



## Tames D

This is a strange thread. Yea buddy.


----------



## pdg

DougKenline said:


> Ok well I can take that. No problem with that pdg. Whoever you are. Good job with your program.



You seem to think using a (probably self appointed) nickname on a forum is a bad thing, something to hide behind for nefarious purposes.

It's internet safety 101 - the more personal detail you give out, the more 'risk' you face. I wouldn't be happy about my kids using their real names as public identifiers in an online environment...

As an adult it's a different choice, but my name would be too long to be sensible anyway. Suffice to say, the first letter of my "pdg" screen name stands for "Paul".



DougKenline said:


> Running for more that 100 miles per week probably makes every inch of your body hurt like hell, but these guys keep running.



Well, actually, not so much.

If you're accustomed to that activity and fuelled correctly, it's more than doable without significant pain.

Different activity, but same premise - I used to cycle to work. 15 miles each way, 5 days a week. Plus rides out on sat and sun. How would 200+ miles in the saddle make you feel? I was fine with it.



DougKenline said:


> I think focussing purely on weight and calories is the best answer for me. I have no time or desire to look at any other numbers.



If weight loss is your goal then that's what you'll have to focus on.

But, you can be light and yet skinny-fat.

I'm currently the heaviest I've ever been, that I know of, at 11st (154lb or 70kg for you variable furriners) - yet my waist is 29". When I was ~15lb lighter it was just about 32".

Now I'm heavier, but I'm in better condition.

Scales don't tell you everything, and sometimes (depending on your goal) they can downright lie.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DougKenline said:


> Another 600 calorie day.  Now starting 36 hour fast.
> 
> I think diet and Martial Arts go hand in hand.  I think no serious student of the Martial Arts would not include diet as part of their training program.
> 
> pdg says "I do think you have a body self image problem - but hey, so do I."
> 
> Ok well I can take that.  No problem with that pdg.  Whoever you are.  Good job with your program.
> 
> Regarding "fasting for more than a day gives me a headache ".
> 
> Running for more that 100 miles per week probably makes every inch of your body hurt like hell, but these guys keep running.
> 
> Regarding "I like the food I like - I like burgers, I like pizza."
> 
> Ok now we're talking!
> 
> Regarding "I had a ~4,000cal day and a ~6,000cal day".
> 
> I don't count calories on my eat days, A large, 14-inch hand-tossed pepperoni pizza from Domino's has 2,370 calories.  Village Inn - Ultimate Skillet W/turkey Sausage, Bacon, 3 Small Pancakes and maple syrup 2,000 calories.  One bag of Nestle Toll House butterscotch morsels 1,700 calories.  1/2 gallon milk 900 calories.  Can of Coca-Cola 150 calories.  I'd say 6,000 calories is a pretty good day.  I probably get close and maybe even go over that on my eat days.  But I don't count calories on my eat days and have no desire to count calories on my eat days.
> 
> On my eat days I just eat.  I don't count.  And I don't weigh-in.  I only weigh-in on damage check day after I am done eating and ready to get back on the program.
> 
> I think focussing purely on weight and calories is the best answer for me.  I have no time or desire to look at any other numbers.  I'll let my Doctor look at all of my other numbers and I won't bother looking at them unless my Doctor tells me they are off.  Last visit they said my cholesterol was high.  But I weighed 286 lbs at the time.  I will be interested to see what they say on my next visit 5/2.
> 
> My bet is Doc will tell me that all of my numbers are excellent and great job on losing all of that weight.
> 
> jobo says "I also suspect that you don't look aesthetical pleasing, very tall very thin middle aged people generally dont."
> 
> Well I'm sure I'm not as good looking as you are jobo.  From your profile pic it is obvious that you are movie star material.
> 
> jobo or whoever he/she is says "what is your motivation for your diet régime?"
> 
> I have many motivations.  Marshall Ulrich ran ultra marathons because his wife died of cancer.  I've got my reasons too.
> 
> In _Running on Empty _he shares the gritty backstory of his run and the excruciating punishments he endured on the road. Ulrich also reaches back nearly thirty years to when the death of his first wife drove him to run from his pain.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Running-Empty-Ultramarathoners-Record-Setting-Across/dp/1583334904
> 
> 
> Gerry, thanks for the reasoned commentary and feedback.
> 
> Regarding "You are using extreme athletes as an excuse for bingeing.."
> 
> Maybe so.
> 
> Martial D says, "this guy hasn't the first clue about martial arts".
> 
> I am here to learn.  Tell me what martial arts is about.
> 
> I think martial arts is about learning.  About keeping in good physical condition.  Which for many means working on their diet.  I think it's about a lot of things.  It probably is even a religion to some.  But just like in any religion, members claiming the same religion will argue among themselves.
> 
> CB, thanks for the feedback and good job with the videos, keep up the good work.
> 
> Regarding, "from 25 years old to last year(40 years), I was 6'2" 200 lbs with an athletic build"
> 
> Yea  I could eat anything and everything and not gain a pound until I  was about 45 years old.  Roy at work is 35 years old 6' 2' tall and 130 lbs.  He says he can't gain weight no matter what he does.  I tell him man go out and get yourself a double cheeseburger and he says "I'm just not hungry."  LOL.  Everybody has their own circumstances.  Andrew at work is 400 lbs and he sits at his desk eating buckets of fried chicken and Honey Buns like there's no tomorrow without a care in the world.   They had to get a special chair that was big enough for him to sit in.
> 
> Regarding, "200 lbs to me is my ideal weight."  Hope your knee gets better.  Get-R-Done.
> 
> Regarding, "In the past I only had to alter my diet to averaging under 2000 calories per day to lose weight."
> 
> Wow 2000 calories per day.  I could just imagine what kind of meal plans I could put together on a 2,000 calorie per day budget.  On my 600 calorie per day for 5 days then 36 hour fast program I lose 2 to 3 lbs per week usually.  Weigh-in on Monday morning after the fast, eat all day Monday, then back on the program starting when alarm goes off Tuesday morning.
> 
> I'm contemplating skipping this Monday Feast and pushing it till next Friday.
> 
> Next Friday starts a one week Feast Cycle as I will be flying to Raleigh, North Carolina to take a test.  Friday I'll pile up about 20 boxes worth of Little Debbies on the goodies table in the office, grab a half gallon of milk and get things started.  I sit right close by the goodies table and all during my fasting days I have to sit there and watch them all bring in the goodies while I say no thank you.  On Friday I will enjoy seeing them all squirming around the big pile of Little Debbies thinking to themselves oh I might have just one but it's going to ruin my diet.  And then watching them give in and eat 5 or 6.  Oh yea buddy that is fun times!  And then I'll get up and grab about 5 or 6 more for myself and toss Andrew a Honey Bun from across the room so he doesn't have to get up.
> 
> Everything is going great here guys!   Keep up the good work and thanks  for the  great forum!
> 
> 
> .


You keep comparing your "binge and starve" regime to both martial arts and extreme athletic pursuit. It is neither, and similar to neither. You are using extreme examples to justify doing something, rather than looking rationally at it and making an informed choice. You've chosen to do this to your body so you can binge as much as you want, whatever you want, rather than focusing on developing a habit of discipline. That latter would be the approach borne out of a martial arts mindset, or of the mindset of an extreme athlete (or any athlete).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DougKenline said:


> Running for more that 100 miles per week probably makes every inch of your body hurt like hell, but these guys keep running.


I did that for a while. Was actually kind of pleasant once I trained up to it - meditative. I ran twice a day: "short" run in the morning (3-5 miles) and "long" run in the evening (~10 miles). It was too much time to commit, and interfered with other activities, but my body had no complaints. Something more analogous to what you're doing would be running 100 miles straight, then not running for several weeks to recover, then repeating the cycle. That would be quite painful, and harmful to boot.


----------



## AngryHobbit

DougKenline said:


> is Fasting a part of anyone's training  program here?  please share your thoughts on Fasting.


Having spent a large portion of my life until the age of 19 standing in long food lines and then trying to make the hard-won food edible, I would never consider fasting. Not only do I side with the part of the medical community that considers fasting an unhealthy extreme, but, for me, personally, starving myself intentionally is so psychologically damaging it negates any alleged benefits. 

I believe in moderation. Enjoy all foods in moderation. Enjoy exercise in moderation. Lose weight the slow way - incidentally, slow, steady weight loss approach has been confirmed to yield the best long-term results.

Kudos for losing 130. But, considering you are a fairly tall person, 160-180 is a plenty healthy weight for you, especially if you are working to develop your muscles. Yo-yoing 30-50 pounds up and down, accompanied by periods of starvation and overeating sounds awful.


----------



## DougKenline

AngryHobbit said:


> Yo-yoing 30-50 pounds up and down



10 to 20 lbs up and down



AngryHobbit said:


> 160-180 is a plenty healthy weight for you



that's spot on with my program....see the diagram in my initial post.....red line 183 lbs green line 158 lbs....spot on!  thank you.....



AngryHobbit said:


> Kudos for losing 130



thanks AngryHobbit!!



AngryHobbit said:


> Having spent a large portion of my life until the age of 19 standing in long food lines



i was just thinking about this today......i was thinking about the famine in southern sudan.....i was thinking that is a good reason to go on a hunger strike........i think i will write a letter to president trump and tell him that i think it is appalling that he is sitting there eating steak and caviar and getting fat with 100 billion dollars in his personal bank account while people are literally starving to death....

and at least 100,000, according to the UN, were in imminent danger of death by starvation.

2017 South Sudan famine - Wikipedia

now if that's not a good reason to go on a hunger strike i don't know what is.....maybe i'm on my own personal hunger strike against president trump......



AngryHobbit said:


> alleged benefits



alleged?  i lost 130 lbs.

thanks for the comments Gerry....will try to respond more later.........

keep up the good work guys!


----------



## Tames D

DougKenline said:


> i think i will write a letter to president trump and tell him that i think it is appalling that he is sitting there eating steak and caviar and getting fat with 100 billion dollars in his personal bank account while people are literally starving to death....


It's easy to criticize. What have you done to eliminate starvation? How much of your money have you donated? Were you appalled at yourself for getting fat while people were literally starving to death? I would hate to think that you are a hypocrite. Yea Buddy. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Buka




----------



## Dirty Dog

Buka said:


> View attachment 21393



Needs more bacon. And get rid of that enormous salad!


----------



## Tez3

Parmo and chips a popular North East of England 'delicacy'. Note lack of anything healthy at all. 

Parmos - everything you ever needed to know about Teesside's fast food


----------



## _Simon_

Buka said:


> View attachment 21393


........ is that........


............... bacon?



(Bacon has certainly made many trans-thread journeys, am thoroughly enjoying watching it's evolution XDXD)


----------



## _Simon_

Tez3 said:


> Parmo and chips a popular North East of England 'delicacy'. Note lack of anything healthy at all.
> 
> Parmos - everything you ever needed to know about Teesside's fast food


Ohhhhhh Tez3....... look what you've done......


I must have one of these soon now....... XD


----------



## Buka




----------



## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> Parmo and chips a popular North East of England 'delicacy'. Note lack of anything healthy at all.
> 
> Parmos - everything you ever needed to know about Teesside's fast food



That also needs bacon. And maybe some black pudding.


----------



## Tez3

_Simon_ said:


> Ohhhhhh Tez3....... look what you've done......
> 
> 
> I must have one of these soon now....... XD




Middlesbrough parmo recipe

I don't know if you'll see it but there's an ad for Aussie wine underneath it lol.  Aussie wine is very enjoyable!


----------



## pdg

_Simon_ said:


> ........ is that........
> 
> 
> ............... bacon?
> 
> 
> 
> (Bacon has certainly made many trans-thread journeys, am thoroughly enjoying watching it's evolution XDXD)



Bacon constitutes 7 of the 9 major food groups.

The other two are "non bacon carrying quadruped" and then of course "fish/bird".


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> Bacon constitutes 7 of the 9 major food groups.
> 
> The other two are "non bacon carrying quadruped" and then of course "fish/bird".




One of my Brownie mother's username is fisharefriendsnotfood We've just down a Guiding sleepover at The Deep in Hull, sleeping by the enormous fish tanks, waking up to sharks, sting rays and large fish swimming around is unnerving and makes you less likely to eat fish lol as they do seem to have distinct personalities.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> One of my Brownie mother's username is fisharefriendsnotfood We've just down a Guiding sleepover at The Deep in Hull, sleeping by the enormous fish tanks, waking up to sharks, sting rays and large fish swimming around is unnerving and makes you less likely to eat fish lol as they do seem to have distinct personalities.



Why? I dive with all those things. Doesn't affect my appetite. Love me some ultra-fresh seafood. With a side of bacon.


----------



## DanT

Being a practitioner of Shaolin, we preach moderation and balance in all things. It is a fundamental principle in Shaolin to care for one's body and be in peak condition. However, one cannot be in peak condition and be unbalanced, nor can they be in peak condition by following extremes. This is why we train 5 h a day, 5 days a week, not 8 hours a day everyday. This is why we eat healthy 95% of the time, focusing on vegetables as our main source of nutrients, but leave space for that slice of cake once a week. You're dealing in extremes and it will be hard to maintain. You did an amazing job losing excess weight. You should strive for a body fat % of around 8-12%, which is a very healthy, lean range to be in. Have your body fat calculated by your doctor, ask if it is safe to cut further, and tell them that you would like to be in that range. Don't deal in extremes. Your goal should be to be healthy.


----------



## pdg

I keep fish, both in a pond and indoors in a tank.

We also have chickens and rabbits.


Doesn't stop me eating their distant relatives...


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> Why? I dive with all those things. Doesn't affect my appetite. Love me some ultra-fresh seafood. With a side of bacon.



Well they were looking as if they considered us as food! They were bigger than most of the girls so it wouldn't have been impossible.


----------



## pdg

Tez3 said:


> Well they were looking as if they considered us as food! They were bigger than most of the girls so it wouldn't have been impossible.



If I keeled over within reach, I'm quite sure all our pets would happily eat me.


----------



## Tez3

The tunnel part where sharks and sting rays swam overhead as well as in the big tanks, the girls sleeping bags ready for bed ( not sleep that didn't happen for a while lol)


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> Well they were looking as if they considered us as food! They were bigger than most of the girls so it wouldn't have been impossible.



Nah... trust me on this. There is nothing in the ocean that looks at us and thinks "Mmmmm, yummy!"
Certainly not things like stingrays, which don't even have teeth.


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> If I keeled over within reach, I'm quite sure all our pets would happily eat me.




Death by chicken!

Our girls are a mixture of military and country/farming backgrounds, the farm ones will happily eat animals of course, it's quite disturbing sometimes how 5 year olds can tell you all about breeding programmes, bulls, rams, AI etc.


----------



## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> If I keeled over within reach, I'm quite sure all our pets would happily eat me.



You have carnivorous rabbits?


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> Nah... trust me on this. There is nothing in the ocean that looks at us and thinks "Mmmmm, yummy!"
> Certainly not things like stingrays, which don't even have teeth.



When you are only five though you really aren't sure.

I eat kosher so no seafood and no fish that doesn't have scales for me. Fish and chips good though! the green is mushy peas (no don't like them) the bowl has  tartare sauce.


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> You have carnivorous rabbits?




We have vampire rabbits in Yorkshire.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> When you are only five though you really aren't sure.
> 
> I eat kosher so no seafood and no fish that doesn't have scales for me. Fish and chips good though! the green is mushy peas (no don't like them) the bowl has  tartare sauce.



Mushy peas are baby food. I do like peas though, especially with ham (which is like bacon...). But fish IS seafood...


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> We have vampire rabbits in Yorkshire.



I think Dr Monty Pyton did a documentary on them...


----------



## AngryHobbit

Tames D said:


> It's easy to criticize. What have you done to eliminate starvation? How much of your money have you donated? Were you appalled at yourself for getting fat while people were literally starving to death? I would hate to think that you are a hypocrite. Yea Buddy. Keep up the good work.


I was just going to say - starving yourself helps absolutely no one. In fact, starving for show or for a fancy diet or just to see if you can do it is kind of insulting to people who are starving because they have no choice. Eat normally, make a few Kiva loans, or start a campaign with your friends to help out the Red Cross, WHO, and Doctors Without Borders to get food to people who need it. The whole "ooh, look at me - I am not eating out of solidarity with people of Sudan" is just bogus.


----------



## AngryHobbit

Buka said:


> View attachment 21394


Stuffed crust, please? Pretty please?


----------



## AngryHobbit

DougKenline said:


> i was just thinking about this today......i was thinking about the famine in southern sudan.....i was thinking that is a good reason to go on a hunger strike........i think i will write a letter to president trump and tell him that i think it is appalling that he is sitting there eating steak and caviar and getting fat with 100 billion dollars in his personal bank account while people are literally starving to death....
> 
> and at least 100,000, according to the UN, were in imminent danger of death by starvation.
> 
> 2017 South Sudan famine - Wikipedia
> 
> now if that's not a good reason to go on a hunger strike i don't know what is.....maybe i'm on my own personal hunger strike against president trump......



When my family and I were food hunting in Ukraine or when I was starving as an exchange student living in a gritty neighborhood in the US, someone else going on a hunger strike just because I didn't have money to buy food would have helped me... not at all. It's one thing if you are a political prisoner going on a hunger strike to defy your jailers. Or going hungry because you are in the middle of Siege of Leningrad and you just gave your bread ration the size of a match box to a hungry child. 

Starving to show off how noble you are is BS. There. I said it. Get it out of your head. Eat something. If you really want to help, go join Peace Corps or Doctors Without Borders. Organize a fund raising campaign to send food to Sudan. Your starving helps nobody and comes across ridiculous and pompous. 



DougKenline said:


> alleged?  i lost 130 lbs.



And do you know what the long-term effect of such a radical weight loss is? You underwent detailed physical and psychological tests by qualified medical professionals to establish that the weight loss and the on-going up and down weight shift had no long-term effects on you? Losing weight by itself is just that - losing weight. It has to be considered within the scope of your unique physical, physiological, and psychological makeup. As people here said several times - we are all different. Is it possible losing 130 lb is a positive thing, good for you all-around? Sure. But it is also possible it is not. You can't say with certainty until you have talked to your doctor and had your tests done. 

Oh, and while we are at it? Eliminating fat entirely from your body and from your diet is not a good thing either. That much has been established. Look it up. When it comes to what we eat, certain essential minerals and vitamins contained in vegetables are ONLY soluble in fat. So, you are better off having a salad with a low-fat dressing or a drizzle of olive oil than with a fat free dressing, because in the latter case, you are deriving no benefit from the vitamins in the salad. 

Study after study demonstrates dietary extremes might yield short-term results, but eliminating entire groups of foods or ingredients is, ultimately, not a great idea, unless there is an allergy involved.


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> I think Dr Monty Pyton did a documentary on them...




sounds likely! 

One thing that was stressed at The Deep is the variety of fish we should be eating and the fish we shouldn't because they are being fished to extinction these include eels, marlin ( Blue and Atlantic), prawns ( that was a surprise to me), rays, seabass ( one of my favourites but will have to think twice now) skate, tuna ( another one I like), Atlantic wild salmon, skate, sturgeon ( caviar). They give a huge list of sustainable but I think in the UK as least we tend not to go for what is considered 'exotic' fish but we have to consider eating different ones or else we'll run out of the old favourites.


----------



## jobo

DougKenline said:


> Another 600 calorie day.  Now starting 36 hour fast.
> 
> I think diet and Martial Arts go hand in hand.  I think no serious student of the Martial Arts would not include diet as part of their training program.
> 
> pdg says "I do think you have a body self image problem - but hey, so do I."
> 
> Ok well I can take that.  No problem with that pdg.  Whoever you are.  Good job with your program.
> 
> Regarding "fasting for more than a day gives me a headache ".
> 
> Running for more that 100 miles per week probably makes every inch of your body hurt like hell, but these guys keep running.
> 
> Regarding "I like the food I like - I like burgers, I like pizza."
> 
> Ok now we're talking!
> 
> Regarding "I had a ~4,000cal day and a ~6,000cal day".
> 
> I don't count calories on my eat days, A large, 14-inch hand-tossed pepperoni pizza from Domino's has 2,370 calories.  Village Inn - Ultimate Skillet W/turkey Sausage, Bacon, 3 Small Pancakes and maple syrup 2,000 calories.  One bag of Nestle Toll House butterscotch morsels 1,700 calories.  1/2 gallon milk 900 calories.  Can of Coca-Cola 150 calories.  I'd say 6,000 calories is a pretty good day.  I probably get close and maybe even go over that on my eat days.  But I don't count calories on my eat days and have no desire to count calories on my eat days.
> 
> On my eat days I just eat.  I don't count.  And I don't weigh-in.  I only weigh-in on damage check day after I am done eating and ready to get back on the program.
> 
> I think focussing purely on weight and calories is the best answer for me.  I have no time or desire to look at any other numbers.  I'll let my Doctor look at all of my other numbers and I won't bother looking at them unless my Doctor tells me they are off.  Last visit they said my cholesterol was high.  But I weighed 286 lbs at the time.  I will be interested to see what they say on my next visit 5/2.
> 
> My bet is Doc will tell me that all of my numbers are excellent and great job on losing all of that weight.
> 
> jobo says "I also suspect that you don't look aesthetical pleasing, very tall very thin middle aged people generally dont."
> 
> Well I'm sure I'm not as good looking as you are jobo.  From your profile pic it is obvious that you are movie star material.
> 
> jobo or whoever he/she is says "what is your motivation for your diet régime?"
> 
> I have many motivations.  Marshall Ulrich ran ultra marathons because his wife died of cancer.  I've got my reasons too.
> 
> In _Running on Empty _he shares the gritty backstory of his run and the excruciating punishments he endured on the road. Ulrich also reaches back nearly thirty years to when the death of his first wife drove him to run from his pain.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Running-Empty-Ultramarathoners-Record-Setting-Across/dp/1583334904
> 
> 
> Gerry, thanks for the reasoned commentary and feedback.
> 
> Regarding "You are using extreme athletes as an excuse for bingeing.."
> 
> Maybe so.
> 
> Martial D says, "this guy hasn't the first clue about martial arts".
> 
> I am here to learn.  Tell me what martial arts is about.
> 
> I think martial arts is about learning.  About keeping in good physical condition.  Which for many means working on their diet.  I think it's about a lot of things.  It probably is even a religion to some.  But just like in any religion, members claiming the same religion will argue among themselves.
> 
> CB, thanks for the feedback and good job with the videos, keep up the good work.
> 
> Regarding, "from 25 years old to last year(40 years), I was 6'2" 200 lbs with an athletic build"
> 
> Yea  I could eat anything and everything and not gain a pound until I  was about 45 years old.  Roy at work is 35 years old 6' 2' tall and 130 lbs.  He says he can't gain weight no matter what he does.  I tell him man go out and get yourself a double cheeseburger and he says "I'm just not hungry."  LOL.  Everybody has their own circumstances.  Andrew at work is 400 lbs and he sits at his desk eating buckets of fried chicken and Honey Buns like there's no tomorrow without a care in the world.   They had to get a special chair that was big enough for him to sit in.
> 
> Regarding, "200 lbs to me is my ideal weight."  Hope your knee gets better.  Get-R-Done.
> 
> Regarding, "In the past I only had to alter my diet to averaging under 2000 calories per day to lose weight."
> 
> Wow 2000 calories per day.  I could just imagine what kind of meal plans I could put together on a 2,000 calorie per day budget.  On my 600 calorie per day for 5 days then 36 hour fast program I lose 2 to 3 lbs per week usually.  Weigh-in on Monday morning after the fast, eat all day Monday, then back on the program starting when alarm goes off Tuesday morning.
> 
> I'm contemplating skipping this Monday Feast and pushing it till next Friday.
> 
> Next Friday starts a one week Feast Cycle as I will be flying to Raleigh, North Carolina to take a test.  Friday I'll pile up about 20 boxes worth of Little Debbies on the goodies table in the office, grab a half gallon of milk and get things started.  I sit right close by the goodies table and all during my fasting days I have to sit there and watch them all bring in the goodies while I say no thank you.  On Friday I will enjoy seeing them all squirming around the big pile of Little Debbies thinking to themselves oh I might have just one but it's going to ruin my diet.  And then watching them give in and eat 5 or 6.  Oh yea buddy that is fun times!  And then I'll get up and grab about 5 or 6 more for myself and toss Andrew a Honey Bun from across the room so he doesn't have to get up.
> 
> Everything is going great here guys!   Keep up the good work and thanks  for the  great forum!
> 
> 
> .



it will be interesting to see what your doc does say, using the bmi charts, you three pounds of being considered malnourishment and of having an eating disorder, so if you go in " fast" mode it should set of warning bells,as your blood sugar will be near zero, if you go in binge mode you will have a massive insulin spike, that will make him consider you as potentially diabetic. 

the bmi calculations are potential very misleading, the taller you are the more skewed they are, 

when I went, he told me I was five pounds over weight, I looked at him agog, I'm 6,1 just short of 200 lbs, I have a 34 waist and visible abs, I took my shirt off and said " where exactly is this alleged fat ?.year right he said, it reads high with tall people, which he should have really considered BEFORE telling me I was Fat


----------



## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> You have carnivorous rabbits?



It's not unknown for rabbits to eat their own offspring, and if I laid still long enough without feeding them I reckon they'd have a nibble...

They're the only thing that isn't biologically at least partly carnivorous, and that includes the hamster.


----------



## AngryHobbit

pdg said:


> It's not unknown for rabbits to eat their own offspring, and if I laid still long enough without feeding them I reckon they'd have a nibble...
> 
> They're the only thing that isn't biologically at least partly carnivorous, and that includes the hamster.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Dirty Dog said:


> You have carnivorous rabbits?


You don’t?


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> Mushy peas are baby food. I do like peas though, especially with ham (which is like bacon...). But fish IS seafood...



I dislike peas in any form and obviously don't eat any form of pork, someone did say to me once that she understood I didn't eat pork but surely I ate bacon was fine.  Many people do not know what they are eating!
'Seafood' in the UK is the stuff from the sea that isn't fish ie. crabs, lobster, prawns, cockles, scallops, mussels, winkles, squid, octopus etc.


----------



## pdg

I'd refer to anything edible from saltwater as "seafood", sometimes using "fish" to cover most eventualities too (shellfish, as well as finny things).

Freshwater fish is "fish", but then there are freshwater shellfish too.

Oh, and then there are the brackish species...

I find it easiest to just call everything "food", unless I actually want to be specific, for example "bacon"


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> I'd refer to anything edible from saltwater as "seafood", sometimes using "fish" to cover most eventualities too (shellfish, as well as finny things).
> 
> Freshwater fish is "fish", but then there are freshwater shellfish too.
> 
> Oh, and then there are the brackish species...
> 
> I find it easiest to just call everything "food", unless I actually want to be specific, for example "bacon"




That's just you then.


----------



## Tez3




----------



## pdg

Tez3 said:


> That's just you then.



There are a few things that are just me.

My mum always said I was special


----------



## AngryHobbit

pdg said:


> I'd refer to anything edible from saltwater as "seafood", sometimes using "fish" to cover most eventualities too (shellfish, as well as finny things).
> 
> Freshwater fish is "fish", but then there are freshwater shellfish too.
> 
> Oh, and then there are the brackish species...
> 
> I find it easiest to just call everything "food", unless I actually want to be specific, for example "bacon"


I think that's fair. Certain foods are so infinitely superior to others they deserve to be singled out. Bacon. Chocolate. Cheese. You know...


----------



## Tez3

AngryHobbit said:


> I think that's fair. Certain foods are so infinitely superior to others they deserve to be singled out. Bacon. Chocolate. Cheese. You know...




Ah so you eat bacon, interesting.


----------



## pdg

Not that it's on a tangent at all, but I found out today that Sainsbury's (supermarket) is introducing a range of "no touch" meat...



			
				The Independent said:
			
		

> Sainsbury’s is set to launch touch-free packaging for its chicken pieces, following research that revealed that many under the age of 35 fear that they may suffer from food poisoning as a result of touching raw meat.



Erm...


----------



## Tez3

pdg said:


> Not that it's on a tangent at all, but I found out today that Sainsbury's (supermarket) is introducing a range of "no touch" meat...
> 
> 
> 
> Erm...




When I was at school in Aberdeen ( I wished we'd stayed in England at that point), the city got quarantined because of an outbreak of typhoid from Argentinian corned beef ( they were out to get us even then). We had 10 weeks school summer holidays that year, we all also got obsessed with hand washing because that was preached at us all the time. 
They just need to wash their hands and cook the chicken properly...no you cannot have 'medium rare' chicken ..................


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> There are a few things that are just me.
> 
> My mum always said I was special


Snowflake.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tez3 said:


> Ah so you eat bacon, interesting.


Interesting, how?


----------



## AngryHobbit

gpseymour said:


> Snowflake.


Did you just call @pdg a flake?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

AngryHobbit said:


> Did you just call @pdg a flake?


Yes. A very specific kind of flake.


----------



## gucia6

Buka said:


> View attachment 21393


mmm... home made burgers... Now I know what hubby will make for weekend bbq 



Dirty Dog said:


> Needs more bacon. And get rid of that enormous salad!


Agree and really no sarcasm here! 



Tez3 said:


> Aussie wine is very enjoyable!






Tez3 said:


> Death by chicken!


buahahaha...
but hey, we have 3 chooks and one of them is really bossy and daring, always pecks me when I give them food.


----------



## _Simon_

Tez3 said:


> Middlesbrough parmo recipe
> 
> I don't know if you'll see it but there's an ad for Aussie wine underneath it lol.  Aussie wine is very enjoyable!


Hehe nice, I live in Australia but don't drink wine haha, but am however very much into the specialty coffee scene 


Tez3 said:


> The tunnel part where sharks and sting rays swam overhead as well as in the big tanks, the girls sleeping bags ready for bed ( not sleep that didn't happen for a while lol)


That is SO cool! Never heard of anything like this!


----------



## Tez3

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe nice, I live in Australia but don't drink wine haha, but am however very much into the specialty coffee scene That is SO cool! Never heard of anything like this!




I love coffee! I like my tea but a good coffee is a blessing 

In Guiding (my other love apart from martial arts) we try to give the girls as many different and exciting experiences as we can. We've had sleepovers in some odd places but we ask the girls what they want to do and they choose.


----------



## _Simon_

Tez3 said:


> I love coffee! I like my tea but a good coffee is a blessing
> 
> In Guiding (my other love apart from martial arts) we try to give the girls as many different and exciting experiences as we can. We've had sleepovers in some odd places but we ask the girls what they want to do and they choose.


Ah nice that's a great idea, and would be such fun for them . Such a great learning experience and good opportunity to work together and have fun doing so.

Yeah coffee has taken off here in Oz.. Melbourne is booming and there are specialty coffee roasters/cafes everywhere now. Yeah I roast my own green beans at home, and got a bunch of brewing apparatus' hehe. There's some incredible stuff around in terms of the quality of beans... and it's great seeing the farmers being paid more for a much higher quality product, and so many coffee projects and initiatives going which helps developing countries who work darn hard to grow and process the coffee they do!

All off topic but seems like we've just run with it (I blame bacon... But that ain't a bad thing  )


----------



## Tez3

_Simon_ said:


> Ah nice that's a great idea, and would be such fun for them . Such a great learning experience and good opportunity to work together and have fun doing so.
> 
> Yeah coffee has taken off here in Oz.. Melbourne is booming and there are specialty coffee roasters/cafes everywhere now. Yeah I roast my own green beans at home, and got a bunch of brewing apparatus' hehe. There's some incredible stuff around in terms of the quality of beans... and it's great seeing the farmers being paid more for a much higher quality product, and so many coffee projects and initiatives going which helps developing countries who work darn hard to grow and process the coffee they do!
> 
> All off topic but seems like we've just run with it (I blame bacon... But that ain't a bad thing  )




My daughter and her husband were in Melbourne last year for the Gold Cup. He brought horses across from the UK and she went out to see him for a holiday and to see the horses as she looks after them when they are in quarantine ( Australia is hugely fussy about what comes into the country, NO food allowed lol or anything organic the horse poo must stay on the plane and the tack must be all new. I'd give her some beans from here for you to try but they won't let them in!) and to watch the races, they had a good time there, my son in law has been across a few times racing now to Sydney as well. I expect they'll be back this year too.

It seems coffee is good for you too according to the latest 'what's good what's not' info. 3 Reasons Why Coffee Is So Good for You


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tez3 said:


> I dislike peas in any form and obviously don't eat any form of pork, someone did say to me once that she understood I didn't eat pork but surely I ate bacon was fine.  Many people do not know what they are eating!
> 'Seafood' in the UK is the stuff from the sea that isn't fish ie. crabs, lobster, prawns, cockles, scallops, mussels, winkles, squid, octopus etc.



Here, and in every place in the world I can think of, seafood means anything from the sea. Fish is fish. Shellfish is shellfish. Both are seafood.


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> Here, and in every place in the world I can think of, seafood means anything from the sea. Fish is fish. Shellfish is shellfish. Both are seafood.


Whilst you are of course correct in your definition, tez is also correct, that here in the UK, there is a common demarcation between " fish" and to a lesser extent prawns, that are considered mainstream and everything else, jellied eels, welks cockels muscles etc that are considered a bit niche. So fish is fish everything Else is " seafood" in the popular vernacular,

Most people will eat a nice price of cod, a lot of people, including myself, won't touch " Sea food"( apart from a prawn cocktail.)

In Italy', I orderer something in " foreign " and was presented with a plate of whole baby octupus, I was physically sick just at the sight of it


----------



## oftheherd1

Tez3 said:


> When I was at school in Aberdeen ( I wished we'd stayed in England at that point), the city got quarantined because of an outbreak of typhoid from Argentinian corned beef ( they were out to get us even then). We had 10 weeks school summer holidays that year, we all also got obsessed with hand washing because that was preached at us all the time.
> They just need to wash their hands and cook the chicken properly...no you cannot have 'medium rare' chicken ..................



That sounds like a scary experience.  My brother had that when I was young.  In those days they would put people in quarantine people until they were cured.  

I always marvel at those who are willing to eat rare chicken.  That is at least as dangerous as rare pork (at least you needn't worry about that).  I also marvel at those who eat rare beef.  Singe the outside and that kills all the bacteria there, and none will be inside.  No.  There may still be bacteria or worms or other  parasites under the outside that was singed.


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> Whilst you are of course correct in your definition, tez is also correct, that here in the UK, there is a common demarcation between " fish" and to a lesser extent prawns, that are considered mainstream and everything else, jellied eels, welks cockels muscles etc that are considered a bit niche. So fish is fish everything Else is " seafood" in the popular vernacular,
> 
> Most people will eat a nice price of cod, a lot of people, including myself, won't touch " Sea food"( apart from a prawn cocktail.)
> 
> In Italy', I orderer something in " foreign " and was presented with a plate of whole baby octupus, I was physically sick just at the sight of it



What I wonder (but didn't express at all well) is if this is a matter of definition or just local convention. In much the same way that "cult" actually means all religions, but is used to mean 'religions I find offensive' or "idiot" means 'anyone driving slower than me' and "manic" means 'anyone driving faster than me.'
Because when I look up 'seafood' it definitely says it's anything from the sea that's considered food by humans.


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## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> What I wonder (but didn't express at all well) is if this is a matter of definition or just local convention. In much the same way that "cult" actually means all religions, but is used to mean 'religions I find offensive' or "idiot" means 'anyone driving slower than me' and "manic" means 'anyone driving faster than me.'


Its the common use of language, ( round here) it doesn't fit the dictionary as far as I know, sea food can be a perjoritive term, like " cult"

In that I won't eat " sea food" pulls face of extreme disgust " I'll have a battered cod please"


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## oftheherd1

jobo said:


> Whilst you are of course correct in your definition, tez is also correct, that here in the UK, there is a common demarcation between " fish" and to a lesser extent prawns, that are considered mainstream and everything else, jellied eels, welks cockels muscles etc that are considered a bit niche. So fish is fish everything Else is " seafood" in the popular vernacular,
> 
> Most people will eat a nice price of cod, a lot of people, including myself, won't touch " Sea food"( apart from a prawn cocktail.)
> 
> In Italy', I orderer something in " foreign " and was presented with a plate of whole baby octupus, I was physically sick just at the sight of it



Eating habits are cultural, or family, or personally controlled.  If my wife put a plate like @Tez3 did in post 144, I would be content.  I like both octopus tentacles (as long as it is cooked) and mussels.  I can also enjoy whole baby octopus.  

But I understand whose who cannot.  I don't like pig's feet, which is a favored food for my wife and oldest daughter.


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## jobo

oftheherd1 said:


> Eating habits are cultural, or family, or personally controlled.  If my wife put a plate like @Tez3 did in post 144, I would be content.  I like both octopus tentacles (as long as it is cooked) and mussels.  I can also enjoy whole baby octopus.
> 
> But I understand whose who cannot.  I don't like pig's feet, which is a favored food for my wife and oldest daughter.


Pigs trotters, a local treat in the 1930s, now a bit niche. My daddy used to sit down to plate of tripe ( the lining of a cows stomach) and vinigar. No amount of cultural heritage would convince me to do like wise. Though a bury black pudding( congealed blood in a intestine) smothered in mustard is one of my favourites


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## Dirty Dog

oftheherd1 said:


> Eating habits are cultural, or family, or personally controlled.  If my wife put a plate like @Tez3 did in post 144, I would be content.  I like both octopus tentacles (as long as it is cooked) and mussels.  I can also enjoy whole baby octopus.
> 
> But I understand whose who cannot.  I don't like pig's feet, which is a favored food for my wife and oldest daughter.



True enough, and this applies to a lot more than eating.
However, despite being Scottish, I still think the bagpipes sound like two cats mating in a vacuum cleaner.


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## AngryHobbit

gucia6 said:


> mmm... home made burgers... Now I know what hubby will make for weekend bbq


Wait for me - I'll bring my home-made onion jam! It's AMAZING on burgers!


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## oftheherd1

jobo said:


> Pigs trotters, a local treat in the 1930s, now a bit niche. My daddy used to sit down to plate of tripe ( the lining of a cows stomach) and vinigar. No amount of cultural heritage would convince me to do like wise. Though a bury black pudding( congealed blood in a intestine) smothered in mustard is one of my favourites



Tripe, beef or pig, I can enjoy boiled or grilled.  Don't know about the mustard, but Koreans have a blood and rice in an intestine that I like.  The Vietnamese had what I think was a beef blood side that tasted OK.  They and the Koreans sometimes eat dog.  I never ate that in Korea (who are more famous/notorious for it, but there was a gentleman in Vietnam who when he ate dog, I got a special invite.


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## Tez3

oftheherd1 said:


> Eating habits are cultural, or family, or personally controlled.  If my wife put a plate like @Tez3 did in post 144, I would be content.  I like both octopus tentacles (as long as it is cooked) and mussels.  I can also enjoy whole baby octopus.
> 
> But I understand whose who cannot.  I don't like pig's feet, which is a favored food for my wife and oldest daughter.




As Jews we don't eat certain things because we follow the laws of Kashrut which is the preparation of food and what we can eat. It's mostly a tradition now but still does have it's uses. It started out as food hygiene rules, pigs aren't animals that travel well if you have a nomadic lifestyle, the meat goes off quickly in the heat and until modern farming methods and veterinary practice would often contain worms. Sea food ie things like shell fish are never going to be fresh if you find them for sale in a desert country! They are also creatures that pick up pollution very quickly causing stomach problems for eaters. Storing dairy products and meat separately makes sense and is modern catering practice now. 
In the UK you are for a sea food platter you will get what's in the picture I posted, the same for most of Europe. Here is an ad for companies, you'll see it says they have *fish and seafood*. Seafood Suppliers | Fish Wholesalers | Direct Seafoods


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## oftheherd1

Dirty Dog said:


> What I wonder (but didn't express at all well) is if this is a matter of definition or just local convention. In much the same way that "cult" actually means all religions, but is used to mean 'religions I find offensive' or "idiot" means 'anyone driving slower than me' and "manic" means 'anyone driving faster than me.'
> Because when I look up 'seafood' it definitely says it's anything from the sea that's considered food by humans.



Well I agree that in the USA, seafood generally means what you define.  But apparently not in other places.  I guess we just have to continue teaching the Brits to speak proper English (quickly puts on flame suit with bullet proofing kit and runs as fast as possible to the self contained bomb shelter).  

As to religions, I had to look it up to find that 400 years ago that was indeed a meaning for cult.  But 400 years later, at least for me, since I had never heard that before, cult generally has a different meaning, with several things that define it.  I understand there are different thoughts on what a cult (or New Religious Movement?) is, but I don't hold that just because a religion isn't the same as I believe, that it is a cult.  Larsen's New Book Of The Cults has what I think is a good definition, but unfortunately I don't have a copy with me so I can't quote it.

I think Idiots and Manics are correctly defined by you.


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## oftheherd1

oftheherd1 said:


> Well I agree that in the USA, seafood generally means what you define.  But apparently not in other places.  I guess we just have to continue teaching the Brits to speak proper English (quickly puts on flame suit with bullet proofing kit and runs as fast as possible to the self contained bomb shelter).
> 
> As to religions, I had to look it up to find that 400 years ago that was indeed a meaning for cult.  But 400 years later, at least for me, since I had never heard that before, cult generally has a different meaning, with several things that define it.  I understand there are different thoughts on what a cult (or New Religious Movement?) is, but I don't hold that just because a religion isn't the same as I believe, that it is a cult.  Larsen's New Book Of The Cults has what I think is a good definition, but unfortunately I don't have a copy with me so I can't quote it.
> 
> I think Idiots and Manics are correctly defined by you.



BTW, I should note that I don't agree with Larson's blanket statements about all he considers a cult.  He lists martial arts as a cult.  He seems to me to be describing Aikido, which even here at MT has some who recognize some aspects of Aikido as being religious.  But I think he paints with too broad a brush.  Apparently he knows little about MA in general.  I of course only have experience with TKD and HKD.  Those that I studied certainly had no religious aspects.


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## oftheherd1

AngryHobbit said:


> Wait for me - I'll bring my home-made onion jam! It's AMAZING on burgers!



I never heard of that but it sounds intriguing.  Do you use a specific kind of onion?


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## AngryHobbit

oftheherd1 said:


> I never heard of that but it sounds intriguing.  Do you use a specific kind of onion?


My favorite kind of onion to use for this is Italian sweet red onion. A word of caution - it SPRAYS. Even if you use a super-sharp knife or a mandolin - it's very juicy. But that's what makes it so eminently suitable to make onion jam. Basically, thinly slice the onions, caramelize in olive oil, then season with salt and pepper to taste, and add a teaspoon of brown sugar or sugar in the raw for each onion (so, three onion - three teaspoons). For each onion, also add a tablespoon of red wine or red wine vinegar. Reduce heat to medium low and stir constantly. Cook until the onions are uniformly soft and, the juice is almost like a reduction - nice and goopy. Works great on burgers, steak, pork, or just on a toast.


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## hoshin1600

oftheherd1 said:


> BTW, I should note that I don't agree with Larson's blanket statements about all he considers a cult.  He lists martial arts as a cult.  He seems to me to be describing Aikido, which even here at MT has some who recognize some aspects of Aikido as being religious.  But I think he paints with too broad a brush.  Apparently he knows little about MA in general.  I of course only have experience with TKD and HKD.  Those that I studied certainly had no religious aspects.



if an outsider listened to students talk about their teacher or founder, it definitely sounds like a cult at times.


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## jobo

oftheherd1 said:


> I never heard of that but it sounds intriguing.  Do you use a specific kind of onion?


don't forget that " jam" is one of the words Americans insist on misusing, they call jam - jelly, I'm not sure  what they call jelly. I suspect the onion jam, is relish, rather than a pound of boiled strawberries with onion in ?

I was offered a jelly sandwich in the states, that I as any right thinking person would , declined, only to find out they meant a jam butty


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## pdg

jobo said:


> I suspect the onion jam, is relish



Or possibly a chutney of sorts?


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## Grenadier

*Admin's Note:*

This thread is now closed, and further discussion on this matter is strongly discouraged.


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