# form



## marlon (Jul 25, 2008)

It has been some time now that i practice the yang long form.  In the last little while i have noticed that there seems to be really only two types of tai chi:  chen style and yang style...everything else seems to be different sequencing of the yang style and "stylistic" differences in practice.  Since i am very new to tai chi can someone explain the differences in the various yang styles that are not about slight variations in the form while adhering to the same principles?  I do not what to start some war, rather i want to understand better the practice i have taken up...without quasi religious zeal; or politics; or bravado.

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 25, 2008)

I don't know much about Yang style, but Sun style actually looks quite different if you ever get the chance to view it.  While the principles and whatnot are the same, the postures are different and it has different technical emphasis.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 25, 2008)

Chen is the first family of Taiji and directly from Chen you get Zhaobao which was from Chen Quin-ping but the Zhaobao people will now argue that point were once they stated it.

Quin-quin ping taught Li Jing-Ting who founded Hu Lei Style of Tai Chi

Chen Chang-xing taught Yang Luchan

Yang Lu-chan (Early Yang Style) and Chen Quin-ping (Chen style and Zhaobao) taught Wu Yu- xiang who taught his nephew Lee I-yu who taught Hao Wei-chen. And Hao style is born.

Hao Wei-chen taught Sun Lu-tang who also studied Xingyiquan with Kuo Yun-shen and Baguazhang with Cheng T'ing-hua (who was a student of Dong Hai-chuan, the founder of Baguazhang). Sun combined Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and Baguazhang and now you have Sun style Taijiquan.

Wu Quanyu learned from Yang Luchan or Yang Banhou (Yang family says Yang Banhou Wu family says Yang Luchan) and you Wu style which later splits into Northern and Southern Wu style. The current Wu family is Southern Wu

There are also large frame and small fram variations within the families.

They all come form the same route so they all have similar sequences. You will find similar things in the various Xingyiquan styles and I assume in Baguazhang as well. It is just each person had there own take on what worked best for them so things changed. Example Yang Luchan removed a lot of Chen Fajing and it worked great for him.  I will PM you something my sifu once told me about Yang style evolution


----------



## PHElwood (Jul 25, 2008)

Xue, I found this video with a demonstration of "square" (beginner's) form and "round" form for Wu style (I believe) taijiquan. I have not heard of using the "square" form before, but it does make sense that this might be a good way to introduce beginners to tai chi in a way that would minimize bad habits (or variations) in the form for the student as they move on to an intermediate level . Any thoughts?
http://www.classicaltaichi.com/youtube.html


----------



## PHElwood (Jul 25, 2008)

I see there's a second video, regarding the internals.
You can really see this fellow's internals moving during some of these moves!!! very interesting!
http://www.classicaltaichi.com/youtube2.html


----------



## PHElwood (Jul 25, 2008)

The Wu-style tai chi instructor in the above videos is Master Stephen Hwa.


----------



## East Winds (Jul 26, 2008)

The "Square" from of Wu style is taught (certainly here in the UK) before the "Round" form. The square form puts in place all the correct mechanics and principles of the form. Once you have learned the square form (correctly) it is then much easier to move on to learning the internal side of Wu taijiquan. Learning the square form can take up to a year. Learning the round form can of course take a lifetime. 

The variations in Yang style that we see today, can largely, I think, be put down to the "Wushu" influences, competition forms, lack of knowledge of of the basic principles and sometimes, rank bad teaching. Currently there are teachers teaching as Yang Cheng-fu left the form to us (Yang Zhen Duo/Yang Jun and those following Fu Zhong Wen's/Yang Zhen Ji's teaching). Another "true" line is of course that followed by Tung/Dong practitioners. There is of course the "Hong Kong" (Yang Shou Zhong) line, but this form has developed into something quite different to what Yang Cheng-fu finally left. (i.e. that followed by Ip Tai Tak etc.).

Hope this helps and as always

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2008)

PHElwood said:


> Xue, I found this video with a demonstration of "square" (beginner's) form and "round" form for Wu style (I believe) taijiquan. I have not heard of using the "square" form before, but it does make sense that this might be a good way to introduce beginners to tai chi in a way that would minimize bad habits (or variations) in the form for the student as they move on to an intermediate level . Any thoughts?
> http://www.classicaltaichi.com/youtube.html


 
The person that could best comment on this would be ggg214 since I believe this is what he has learned from his sifu.

I once showed this form to my Yang sifu and he said it was not Taiji but he is a long time Yang guy and he does not really like Wu but that is based on his experience seeing in old Hong Kong.

I think it could be a good base to give you direct lines of power but then I am not exactly sure what they are trying to accomplish with it since I only did one Northern Wu form and that was years ago. My only question would be how hard is it to get the square out and the roundness in after learning the square form.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2008)

East Winds said:


> The "Square" from of Wu style is taught (certainly here in the UK) before the "Round" form. The square form puts in place all the correct mechanics and principles of the form. Once you have learned the square form (correctly) it is then much easier to move on to learning the internal side of Wu taijiquan. Learning the square form can take up to a year. Learning the round form can of course take a lifetime.
> 
> The variations in Yang style that we see today, can largely, I think, be put down to the "Wushu" influences, competition forms, lack of knowledge of of the basic principles and sometimes, rank bad teaching. Currently there are teachers teaching as Yang Cheng-fu left the form to us (Yang Zhen Duo/Yang Jun and those following Fu Zhong Wen's/Yang Zhen Ji's teaching). Another "true" line is of course that followed by Tung/Dong practitioners. There is of course the "Hong Kong" (Yang Shou Zhong) line, but this form has developed into something quite different to what Yang Cheng-fu finally left. (i.e. that followed by Ip Tai Tak etc.).
> 
> ...


 
There may also be a line from Yang Shaohou he has family still living in Hong Kong. And if they do still do his taiji it would be somewhat different from the taiji of Yang Chengfu since Yang Shaohou was Yang Chengfu's older brother and his main teacher was likely Yang Banhou (his uncle) not Yang Yang Jainhou (his father) and it is all before Yang Chengfu changed the form to what we know today


----------



## PHElwood (Jul 26, 2008)

Hi East Winds, 
     Is the square form taught only in Wu-style taiji? Have you ever seen it used as a teaching method with Yang or other styles?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2008)

PHElwood said:


> Hi East Winds,
> Is the square form taught only in Wu-style taiji? Have you ever seen it used as a teaching method with Yang or other styles?


 
Sorry for the intrusion here and I'm not East Winds but I have never seen the square form taught in Yang or Chen.


----------



## East Winds (Jul 26, 2008)

PHElwood,

I agree with Xue Sheng, Wu is the only style to my knowledge that uses square/round teaching techniques. It is certainly absent in Traditional Yang. As to how difficult it is to change from square to round, the Wu practitioners I have seen here in Scotland have no problems whatever. The Wu style taught here is very high standard.

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2008)

marlon said:


> It has been some time now that i practice the yang long form. In the last little while i have noticed that there seems to be really only two types of tai chi: chen style and yang style...everything else seems to be different sequencing of the yang style and "stylistic" differences in practice. Since i am very new to tai chi can someone explain the differences in the various yang styles that are not about slight variations in the form while adhering to the same principles? I do not what to start some war, rather i want to understand better the practice i have taken up...without quasi religious zeal; or politics; or bravado.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Check here and you will get a better picture as to why they are similar and where they all come from. 

All Taiji styles come from either Chen or Yang which is why you have such similarity.


----------



## ggg214 (Jul 27, 2008)

PHElwood said:


> Xue, I found this video with a demonstration of "square" (beginner's) form and "round" form for Wu style (I believe) taijiquan. I have not heard of using the "square" form before, but it does make sense that this might be a good way to introduce beginners to tai chi in a way that would minimize bad habits (or variations) in the form for the student as they move on to an intermediate level . Any thoughts?
> http://www.classicaltaichi.com/youtube.html


 
first of all, there is a video of square form in my lineage:



.
this is what i learn as the square form.
in my learning, my master always tells me that this form is only square in its posture, the internal is round movement too. but the video in your post, i can't see any round or circle in its form(maybe i am not good enough to understand.)
yes, when we start to learn this form, my master requires us to do the form as robot, when  arm is moving, the other parts of your body should stay still. the goal of this training is to break up the instinctive body move, to rebuild your body in line with taiji, and finally to build a right body constructure. this is only the external requirement. then, go to the internal, it needs circle movement, because only circle move ment is no ending point. so i can't accept the video in your post as the right square taiji. this is only my opinion.


----------



## PHElwood (Jul 27, 2008)

Thanks ggg214,
    The video you offer is very interesting! especially the different views and I see other videos of this style on Youtube as well. What family style of taiji does this Angular form derive from? 
   I agree that it seems to have square and round together and in this way does look different from the square Wu style. 
Thankyou for your interesting post.


----------



## PHElwood (Jul 27, 2008)

Hi again ggg214
   This Angular style tai chi looks to be Wu family taiji as well- is that correct? I think the videos are very well made!


----------



## PHElwood (Jul 28, 2008)

Hello (again) ggg214,
    I just found the answer to my question in an earlier thread "angular form tai chi" that you posted back in February. So now I understand more about this form. Thanks again for your helpful postings.


----------



## ggg214 (Jul 28, 2008)

PHElwood said:


> Thanks ggg214,
> The video you offer is very interesting! especially the different views and I see other videos of this style on Youtube as well. What family style of taiji does this Angular form derive from?
> I agree that it seems to have square and round together and in this way does look different from the square Wu style.
> Thankyou for your interesting post.


 
my master told me that my lineage is back to the Yang style. in the video there is a lineage showed at the beginning. Ji zixiu&#65288;&#32426;&#23376;&#20462;&#65289;had learn taiji from small form of Yang style. therefore, in the style or skills or techniques, it's more like yang style, and less like Wu style.

what i said is not accepted as round Wu style in shanghai. they have their own opinion on this history. no matter what we all think, both agree that it's one style of taiji .


----------



## ggg214 (Jul 28, 2008)

PHElwood said:


> Hi again ggg214
> This Angular style tai chi looks to be Wu family taiji as well- is that correct? I think the videos are very well made!


 
in the video, the person have learn the style from my master's sifu Dai Ying (&#25140;&#33521&#12290;my master know him too. 
Dai Ying has been influenced by Wu style. in Dai's pics, we can easily find out the characters of Wu style.


----------

