# question concerning ninjutsu ryuha



## heretic888 (Dec 3, 2002)

When I was browsing through some Bujinkan sites online, I came across occasional mentions of a "Koto-ryu ninjutsu" and "Gyokko-ryu ninjutsu". I would normally dismiss this, except the other non-ninjutsu ryu (such as Gikan-ryu) were not listed as ninjutsu on these sites, and this happened more than once.

Does anyone know anything about this? Ninjutsu in the Koto-ryu or Gyokko-ryu???

I also came across a "Shinden Fudo-ryu ninpo" on one site.

Thanks!!!!


----------



## Bujingodai (Dec 3, 2002)

6 of the 9 systems in the Bujinkan are Jujutsu based to my belief. There 3 actually systems that are Ninjutsu styles. All are grouped to what forms the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
Hatsumi has sokeship of those systems


----------



## heretic888 (Dec 3, 2002)

Yes, but remember that the Bugei Daijiten Ryuha describes the schools as "Gyokko-ryu Ninpo Kosshijutsu" and "Koto-ryu Ninpo Koppojutsu". Very interesting description of 'jujutsu' schools, no??

In addition, all of these schools come from Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu, I believe, and for most of their histories these schools were considered part of the Iga-ryu Ninpo collective.


----------



## Bujingodai (Dec 3, 2002)

Jay would be a much better authority on this one, or Don Roley. My experience in the Kan is limited to a few years.

But I have never heard of those systems being referred to as Ninpo.

Gikan, Togakure and Kumogakure were the only Ninjutsu systems of the Kan to my knowledge. But we did study all the others, or aspects of them as it rlates


----------



## heretic888 (Dec 3, 2002)

Yeah, I've been talking to Jay about this very subject in another forum.

From what he's told me, Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu DO contain Ninpo within them, but are not ninjutsu schools per se. Kukishin-ryu also contains shinobijutsu teachings, so I don't know if it would be classified as a ninjutsu ryuha or not. Gikan-ryu has ninja roots, but contains neither Ninpo nor ninjutsu methods. Jay told me that Shinden Fudo-ryu isn't Ninpo per se but its teachings and methods are very 'Ninpo-like' in nature. 

By the way, I'm pretty sure the third ninjutsu ryuha is Gyokushin-ryu not Gikan-ryu.

Laterz.


----------



## Bujingodai (Dec 4, 2002)

Thanks for the correction


----------



## heretic888 (Dec 5, 2002)

No problemo, amigo!!  

Does anyone else have any input about this topic??


----------



## George Kohler (Dec 6, 2002)

Hi Everyone,

Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu are not Ninpo. They are considered hiden fighting schools that only ninja families in the Iga region used, and did have some ninpo strategies.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by George Kohler _
> 
> *Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu are not Ninpo. They are considered hiden fighting schools that only ninja families in the Iga region used, and did have some ninpo strategies. *



What would make something a ninpo strategy--that it is historically considered to be part of ninpo, or that it has certain ninpo-like qualities?


----------



## George Kohler (Dec 6, 2002)

They are strategies. For example, in the Gyokko ryu scrolls it says to use two small objects in the hands to be used as distractors to disappear. I know a little bit about this, but will not give the full details on how it works. Also, there are strategies of heaven (ten) earth (chi) and man (jin). There are a lot more other things  that are found in both Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu.

Hope this helps.


----------



## heretic888 (Dec 6, 2002)

Hmm..... very interesting.  



> Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu are not Ninpo. They are considered hiden fighting schools that only ninja families in the Iga region used, and did have some ninpo strategies.



Tell me, what is the difference exactly between a ryu 'having ninpo strategies' and a ryu 'being a ninpo school'??? 

That historical information is most intriguing. I was aware of the 'ninja basis' of the Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu, but not of the Gikan-ryu. Tell me, does this also to apply to the Kuki Shinden-ryu or the Shinden Fudo-ryu?? The Takagi Yoshin-ryu???



> They are strategies. For example, in the Gyokko ryu scrolls it says to use two small objects in the hands to be used as distractors to disappear. I know a little bit about this, but will not give the full details on how it works. Also, there are strategies of heaven (ten) earth (chi) and man (jin). There are a lot more other things that are found in both Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu.



Very interesting. Tell me, are the strategies of tenchijin found only in ninja/ninpo schools?? Also, are these 'ninpo strategies' present in the Gikan-ryu as well?? Shinden Fudo-ryu? Kuki Shinden-ryu? Takagi Yoshin-ryu???

Thanks for the information!!!!


----------



## George Kohler (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> 
> *Tell me, what is the difference exactly between a ryu 'having ninpo strategies' and a ryu 'being a ninpo school'???*



The differences is the main focus. Gyokko ryu focuses on kosshijutsu, while a ninpo ryuha is escaping and hiding ect.



> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> 
> *That historical information is most intriguing. I was aware of the 'ninja basis' of the Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu, but not of the Gikan-ryu. Tell me, does this also to apply to the Kuki Shinden-ryu or the Shinden Fudo-ryu?? The Takagi Yoshin-ryu???*



As far as I know, KSR, SFR and TYR does not have any 'ninja basis.' But, Amatsu Tatara does have some ninpo in it. It can be found in the scroll Ryusen no maki.

BTW, Kukishinden should not have a ryu after it. For example, Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu or Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho. If you use the word ryu, it should be like (and this is just an example) Kukishin ryu happo bikenjutsu.




> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> 
> *Very interesting. Tell me, are the strategies of tenchijin found only in ninja/ninpo schools?? Also, are these 'ninpo strategies' present in the Gikan-ryu as well?? Shinden Fudo-ryu? Kuki Shinden-ryu? Takagi Yoshin-ryu???
> *



1. I don't know if tenchijin can be found in other non ninpo schools.

2. Gikan ryu is not widely known, so I don't know. In the Genbukan, most likely this school will not be taught to many people. I have a feeling that it will only be taught (the full curriculum) to Tanemura sensei's son. Tanemura sensei does teach pieces of Gikan ryu, but only in goshinjutsu applications.

3. As for the others, I don't know. Kukishin ryu does have strategies, but don't know if it has ninpo strategies. Come to think of it, Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu does have Tenmon Chimon.


----------



## heretic888 (Dec 6, 2002)

> The differences is the main focus. Gyokko ryu focuses on kosshijutsu, while a ninpo ryuha is escaping and hiding ect.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't 'ninpo' refer to a way of looking at, and handling, situations?? I was under the impression that ninjutsu/shinobijutsu was the art that deals in espionage, evasion, concealment, infiltration, and so on; while ninpo was more of an underlying life philosophy or way of doing things that could encompass a variety of martial practices. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



> As far as I know, KSR, SFR and TYR does not have any 'ninja basis.' But, Amatsu Tatara does have some ninpo in it. It can be found in the scroll Ryusen no maki.



I have been told that Kukishin-ryu also contains shinobijutsu methods, in addition to ninpo.

Besides, doesn't both the Kukishin-ryu and Shinden Fudo-ryu come from Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu???



> As for the others, I don't know. Kukishin ryu does have strategies, but don't know if it has ninpo strategies. Come to think of it, Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu does have Tenmon Chimon.



Hmmm, and those are ninpo strategies, i presume??

Thanks for the feedback!!


----------



## night_warrior (Aug 8, 2006)

this is quite an interesting question, sorry for bumping this old post, but if anyone in here does indeed own "the way of the ninja secret techniques" by Hatsumi Masaaki, the paragraph under "Ninjutsu diversity" Hatsumi sensei states this and i quote "i have learned many schools of Ninjutsu-Via Isshi Soden (secret transmission unto a sole disciple) Togakure Ryu, Gyokkushin Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, *Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu *and* Gikan Ryu* and then obviously he go's on to discuss about the many main ninjutsu ryu that existed through out Iga and Koga. The point is Hatsumi sensei does mention the specific Ryu-ha (apart from the obvious ones but also the ones in bold) has ninjutsu schools, if anyone does indeed own the book just check that paragraph out.
Also i asked about the same thing about Gikan Ryu that on some Genbukan dojo websites its branded as Gikan Ryu Ninpo Koppojutsu, and i was told that the reason for this being is that the Ninjas where indeed highly trained in Koppojutsu, and my theory for this is, i should imagine is because the Gikan ryu does derive from the Gyokko Ryu line.

Night_Warrior


----------



## heretic888 (Aug 8, 2006)

Wow. A four year old thread just got bumped. . .


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 9, 2006)

It is true that there is a strong ninjutsu influence on the schools Night Warrior mentioned. Many ninja studied them. But there is of course more to the story. Talk to the Japanese, even Hatsumi if you can. They can probably show you how the taijutsu and such show this difference in everything they do. Don't expect to see DVDs from quest entitled "Gyokko ryu ninpo taijutsu" because I am told that while there are strategies for ninjutsu in them, their overall outlook makes them slightly different from "ninjutsu" schools like the Togakure. 

George Kohler's last post is probably the best description I have seen on line and I don't feel like repeating something that someone else already said better.


----------



## heretic888 (Aug 10, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> It is true that there is a strong ninjutsu influence on the schools Night Warrior mentioned. Many ninja studied them. But there is of course more to the story. Talk to the Japanese, even Hatsumi if you can. They can probably show you how the taijutsu and such show this difference in everything they do. Don't expect to see DVDs from quest entitled "Gyokko ryu ninpo taijutsu" because I am told that while there are strategies for ninjutsu in them, their overall outlook makes them slightly different from "ninjutsu" schools like the Togakure.
> 
> George Kohler's last post is probably the best description I have seen on line and I don't feel like repeating something that someone else already said better.


 
Thanks, Don. :asian:


----------

