# (Actually) Training at home



## Russian (Oct 8, 2012)

Hello.

First off I wanna say sorry because I know this subject has been discussed before, in this forum as well as others, but I was unable to get a final definite answer. The answers I found varied greatly.

Short version:
Is it possible to learn Systema from a set of DVDs?

Long version:
After 3 years my gym closed, and so did my boxing class. But I still wanna continue training. I've been attacked several times during my life, and it taught me the same thing again and again - I am not capable of defending myself. I rock at the ring(best in my class), but in a real battle it's harder to control myself. Especially because there are *always* numerous attackers, and it's *always* a surprise. And please trust me when I say I do my best to avoid danger, and it still happens.
So anyway, I would like to learn something more modern and actual for today's streets. I've deeply searched every class in my area and I was unable to find anything that focuses on actual self defense rather than sport and competitions.
I have two choices - either to take a class that I know will not work for me, or to learn by books and DVDs. I have to say that self-teaching has never disappointed me, but this is a special case.
So far I have various Systema DVDs by Vladimir Vasiliev, teaching all sorts of useful stuff(hand to hand, knife disarming, combat in tight spaces, proper breathing, some others I can't recall).
I plan to give a copy to my friend, who is as interested as I am, and each will watch a DVD we agree upon. We will memorize the material and repeat the moves by ourselves(on thin air). Then we meet, watch the DVD, and criticize each other until we believe both of us are doing the exercise correctly(on each other, and thin air). We will also practice punches and kicks and organize regular fights.
Of course, this will be practiced along a proper workout program.

So yeah... Can it be done, why/why not, and how? What are some tips and notes that you can offer?
Really, any sort of help is appreciated.


Thanks in advance!


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## Blindside (Oct 9, 2012)

Short answer because I am holding a wiggling 4 month old, no it cannot be done well.  I am not saying this about just Systema, I am talking about any martial art.  If the "only" thing you have is a ring art, learn that,  it will do you better than a "street" system learned half-assed from video.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 9, 2012)

Blindside said:


> Short answer because I am holding a wiggling 4 month old, no it cannot be done well.  I am not saying this about just Systema, I am talking about any martial art.  If the "only" thing you have is a ring art, learn that,  it will do you better than a "street" system learned half-assed from video.


Ordinarily, I would completely agree with this. However, it is POSSIBLE (not probable, but possible) that because you have experience in a ring, and (should) know the basics of fighting, and have a friend to discuss everything with, you MAY be able to learn something through videos. However, boxing IMHO is not 'complete' enough to give you the basics that you would need for that, which lowers your ability to comprehend the style. Even if it was 'complete', you still wouldn't be able to understand everything without a proper instructor. Also, you mentioned that one of the problems was that boxing is 1-on-1, and streetfights aren't, but you're only going to fight the one friend (which i presumes means it would be 1-on-1 as well)? May not be the best way to gain experience. My suggestion would be to find another friend who practices a different style of martial arts, pool all your information together and teach each other, and practice 2-on-1 fights (or more if you can find more people). Would probably be your best bet considering your aim is just to defend yourself properly.
P.S. Don't think I'm insulting boxing by it's not complete. I have a huge respect for boxing and boxers. However, it focuses purely on handwork, and ignores grappling, kicks and weapons/countering weapons, all of which are fundamental parts to fighting.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 9, 2012)

Is it possible? Sure. Nearly anything is at least theoretically possible.
Areyou likely to learn it well or properly? Absolutely not. Find a school, even if it means changing styles.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 9, 2012)

Problem is, when You criticise each other, itll be from the conclusions Youve drawn from interpriting the videos. If You misinterprit something, Youre 'correcting' incorrectly. It isnt reliable at all. You could, however, make a syllabus of self practice based on the principles in the videos. A punch is a punch, and the technical differences can be translated a bit based on Your experience. I suggest not trying to learn Systema, but since talking people out of this sort of thing doesnt seem to work, if You do do it, I suggest learning what theyre doing, with less focus on exactly how They do it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 9, 2012)

You will not find a final definite answer because there isn't one.  You can ask all you like, you will never get everyone to agree.  I wish you the best of luck and I hope you are able to find a solution that works for you.  If it were me, I'd do whatever it took to find live training from a competent instructor, even if it meant moving to a place where the training was available.  I find it hard to believe that where physical attacks are high, self-defense training does not exist. Usually self-defense training shows up where needed.


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## Russian (Oct 9, 2012)

Well I have to admit I saw it coming, but it was worth a shot. I suppose I will not learn fighting from the videos, but I will at least watch them because I find them interesting.

As about finding a school - I have several available including Aikido, Karate, Wing Chung and civilian Krav Maga.
Now the best choice for me is obviously Krav, but since it's the civilian variant it lacks some of the most interesting techniques. Another problem is that class takes place 2 times a week but I can only attend 1.

So which of these is best suited for me, given the previously explained goal of self defense on the street? Also, if none of those match, what should I look for(although I'm pretty sure I went over every class available)?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 9, 2012)

Russian said:


> Well I have to admit I saw it coming, but it was worth a shot. I suppose I will not learn fighting from the videos, but I will at least watch them because I find them interesting.
> 
> As about finding a school - I have several available including Aikido, Karate, Wing Chung and civilian Krav Maga.
> Now the best choice for me is obviously Krav, but since it's the civilian variant it lacks some of the most interesting techniques. Another problem is that class takes place 2 times a week but I can only attend 1.
> ...



It would not be possible to say which of them is better for you, because of two things.

1) You.  Everyone is different, has different physical and mental characteristics, and will be better suited for one sort of training or another.
2) The instruction.  Just because it says "XYZ" on the door doesn't mean that's what they teach, or that they teach it well.  I'd prefer to learn from a competent instructor in any art rather than a poor one in an art I liked.

I'd recommend taking some time - this is not a race - and visiting each training center.   Talk to the instructors, find out who they are and what their credentials are.  Take notes!  You're not insulting them by checking up on them later, see if they are 'known' and have a reputation outside of their own training center, good or bad.  Watch a typical evening of training; if they invite you to join them on the floor, give it a shot.  See how your body feels and responds to the type of training they do and how you feel about it.  There is no shame and no blame in deciding that a given art just isn't what you're into; move on to the next.

Everyone is different.  You must find your own path, no one can advise you which path to take.


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## MJS (Oct 9, 2012)

Russian said:


> Hello.
> 
> First off I wanna say sorry because I know this subject has been discussed before, in this forum as well as others, but I was unable to get a final definite answer. The answers I found varied greatly.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the forum!   This is a topic that has been discussed numerous times.  You will no doubt, see 2 sides to this debate...one side that says yes you can learn, and the other that says no, you can't.  I fall into the no you cant.  Let me explain a bit further.  I've been in the arts for 26yrs now.  I'm fairly sure that I could pick up a Kenpo dvd and learn from it.  Why?  Kenpo is the art that I've done the longest.  I'm sure I could pick up a TKD dvd and mimic the moves, getting a basic idea, BUT, in the end, thats ALL I'll get...a basic idea.  I wont learn the fine points or anything else, because I'm not with a live teacher, someone who can correct my mistakes.  For example...since stopping Kenpo, I began a new journey in Kyokushin.  Been doing that for over a year now.  My teacher has a very watchful eye, and is always on the floor, making small or major corrections on everyone in the class.  Without that, IMHO, everyone would be performing wrong.  Who wants to do that?  Of course, if someone is ok with that, then fine, it is what it is.  Myself...I want to be as good as I possibly can, and without a teacher, then IMO, that wont happen.


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## jks9199 (Oct 9, 2012)

Let me take a different direction, because what you're looking for isn't really what you think it is.  You want skills that will work under a specific pressure.  You need to shape your training towards that pressure, instead of towards the ring or sparring.  If you do that -- it doesn't matter what you train in.  I suspect that the Systema folks hereabouts will tell you that it's impossible to learn Systema from video or in the way that you're describing because there's more to Systema than the physical techniques.

Look into the reality based self defense movement.  Take some of their exercises and drills, and use your boxing skills within in those drills.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 9, 2012)

Russian said:


> As about finding a school - I have several available including Aikido, Karate, Wing Chung and civilian Krav Maga.
> Now the best choice for me is obviously Krav, but since it's the civilian variant it lacks some of the most interesting techniques. Another problem is that class takes place 2 times a week but I can only attend 1.
> 
> So which of these is best suited for me, given the previously explained goal of self defense on the street? Also, if none of those match, what should I look for(although I'm pretty sure I went over every class available)?



As has been stated, any of these can work, it depends on you. I believe any of these can help with street-fighting (although it may be better to post on each area's forum to get the 'experts' for each art's opinions). 

As for Krav Maga not having the interesting techniques...does that matter? If you understand the principles well enough through study with an instructor, you should be able to come up with 'interesting' techniques by yourself. Besides, interesting doesn't neccessarily mean effective, the more effective, basic ones are the ones that you will (probably) be learning in those classes.


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## Instructor (Oct 9, 2012)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Russian.  Without being pro or con I do support the idea that a local teacher (that you enjoy working with) is generally best.


Good Luck,
Jon


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2012)

DIFINITIVE ANSWER: no, you cannot learn any art strictly from video, so don't waste your time and money.  Video can be a useful supplement IF IF IF you have steady and regular face-to-face and hands-on training with a competent instructor.

Yes, you can learn to mimick an art by watching video.  This is not the same thing as learning it.

Might this mimickry be useful in self defense?  Possibly, but I wouldn't bet the outhouse on it.


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## J W (Oct 9, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It would not be possible to say which of them is better for you, because of two things.
> 
> 1) You.  Everyone is different, has different physical and mental characteristics, and will be better suited for one sort of training or another.
> 2) The instruction.  Just because it says "XYZ" on the door doesn't mean that's what they teach, or that they teach it well.  I'd prefer to learn from a competent instructor in any art rather than a poor one in an art I liked.
> ...



Yeah, what he said. 

I would point out, though, that even if you receive excellent training and are able to fight as well on the street as you can in the ring, it may not make much of a difference if you are attacked by a group and they end up being armed. 

Martial arts training may not be enough to keep you safe. I know you said that you've done your best to avoid danger, so I'm sure this is easier said than done, but you may need to take a step back and really figure out how you can keep these situations from occuring.


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## Russian (Oct 9, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> As has been stated, any of these can work, it depends on you. I believe any of these can help with street-fighting (although it may be better to post on each area's forum to get the 'experts' for each art's opinions).
> 
> As for Krav Maga not having the interesting techniques...does that matter? If you understand the principles well enough through study with an instructor, you should be able to come up with 'interesting' techniques by yourself. Besides, interesting doesn't neccessarily mean effective, the more effective, basic ones are the ones that you will (probably) be learning in those classes.



I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.


@jks9199 I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2012)

Russian said:


> I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.
> 
> 
> @jks9199 I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.



I think you may have it backwards.  In the military, they have the unenviable task of teaching a H2H method to a large group of people, in a short period of time, and those people have a wide range of ability, interest, and committment to that training.  H2H is taught as a minimal backup plan, while the vast majority of combative training centers around the use of the weaponry.

so what happens is, a "military" H2H combat method is usually very basic and even dumbed down so that all recruits are able to get something out of it, even those who might not be very bright and might not have any real interest in it.

When I see something advertised as "military" I take that as my cue to walk the other way.


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## Russian (Oct 9, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> I think you may have it backwards.  In the military, they have the unenviable task of teaching a H2H method to a large group of people, in a short period of time, and those people have a wide range of ability, interest, and committment to that training.  H2H is taught as a minimal backup plan, while the vast majority of combative training centers around the use of the weaponry.
> 
> so what happens is, a "military" H2H combat method is usually very basic and even dumbed down so that all recruits are able to get something out of it, even those who might not be very bright and might not have any real interest in it.
> 
> When I see something advertised as "military" I take that as my cue to walk the other way.



I see your point, but my interest in martial arts such as Krav Maga and Systema still lies in their selection of defensive as well as offensive moves, with or without weaponry.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 9, 2012)

Russian said:


> I see your point, but my interest in martial arts such as Krav Maga and Systema still lies in their selection of defensive as well as offensive moves, with or without weaponry.



fair enough, you make your own choices and those are probably perfectly fine systems if taught by a competent instructor.  but in my experience with several different martial arts, those bone breaks, joint breaks, use of knives and sticks, are pretty common amongst most of what's out there.  You don't need to search for any special system for that kind of thing, tho when it comes to the weaponry a lot of what is taught is questionable at best, and some systems do it better than others.  But that has nothing to do with it being a military method, it's just that some systems make the weaponry a heavier focus than others.


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## Takai (Oct 9, 2012)

Russian said:


> I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.



Welcome to MT. You will find a myriad collection of information here to answer questions you didn't even know you had. (I know that I do.....frequently)

1) Military H2H is designed more to be able to "get back to your tools quickly". This could be a knife but, is primarily a firearm. And they "can" be very efficient at that. Military H2H is not the designed for the same environment as a "civilian" version. It is designed for a rapid uptake of simplified movements and techniques be taught to a couple hundred 18 year old's every 8 weeks.

2) Where do you think that the military systems came from? They did not just evolve out of thin air. They are adaptations and revisions of other systems. This can be good and bad. All of this comes down to what a lot of other people have said....A good instructor is a poor system is better than a poor instructor in a good system.

3) You mentioned Aikido and Wing Chun are available. Both of those arts are excellent representations of how to break bones/joints quickly. Aikido works sword, tanto and jo staff for weapons and Wing Chun takes a little longer to get to weapons. The time to become proficient may take a while but, defending yourself is an endeavour that I feel is well worth the blood and sweat required to learn.

My advice would be to spend time looking at each of your options and doing your research on each instructor. It may take sometime but, it will allow you to make the most informed decision. 

After all, isn't you welfare worth it?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 9, 2012)

Russian-What JKS is referring to is something normally called RBSD, and is a movement that's continuing to get more and more support (in america at least, I don't know how it fares in other countries). Basically what it is is a training that focuses on how to deal with self defense 'in the street' and in a variety of situations. I believe it focuses not just on the fighting aspect but also on what to do in the 'pre-conflict' and 'post-conflict' stages. It's (supposedly) really useful, and would be perfect for what you want (I'm not an expert on RBSD, so if I am wrong somehow, or someone knows more on its movement in other countries, please correct/expand on what I said). 

As for the learning to use weapons effectively, outside of RBSD, the only art I would feel confident recommending would be the filipino martial arts.To be perfectly honest (and i'm sure at least one or two people will post disagreeing with me) fma are the only martial arts where i feel the modern weapon training is competent enough to teach and actually be useful in real life.


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## jks9199 (Oct 9, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Let me take a different direction, because what you're looking for isn't really what you think it is.  You want skills that will work under a specific pressure.  You need to shape your training towards that pressure, instead of towards the ring or sparring.  If you do that -- it doesn't matter what you train in.  I suspect that the Systema folks hereabouts will tell you that it's impossible to learn Systema from video or in the way that you're describing because there's more to Systema than the physical techniques.
> 
> Look into the reality based self defense movement.  Take some of their exercises and drills, and use your boxing skills within in those drills.





Russian said:


> I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.
> 
> 
> @jks9199 I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.



In your original post, you wrote:


> After 3 years my gym closed, and so did my boxing class. But I still  wanna continue training. I've been attacked several times during my  life, and it taught me the same thing again and again - I am not capable  of defending myself. I rock at the ring(best in my class), but in a  real battle it's harder to control myself. Especially because there are  *always* numerous attackers, and it's *always* a surprise. And please  trust me when I say I do my best to avoid danger, and it still happens.
> So anyway, I would like to learn something more modern and actual for today's streets.



Full points:  You've already realized 2 truths about real violence on your own.  The odds are never fair, and attacks are typically unexpected.  

But you've locked into the idea that there's some system out there that'll give you the answer to how to survive a fight.  There's not.  There is no system that will, in and of itself, prepare you for real violence.  Instead, there are training methods that will do the job -- whatever the system you train in.  Taekwondo is an easy example.  There are many people who go to TKD classes on Tuesday and Thursday, and practice their patterns and one steps in class, and spar... but would be completely lost if you actually threw a punch at them.  But... the ROK Marines base their hand-to-hand on Taekwondo.  Or Taiji (tai chi chuan)...  The slow hippy dancers aren't much to look at.  But if you ever have a chance to have someone really skilled show you the combative applications, you'll be scared silly.  It's a cliche -- but it's not the system, it's the person that matters.

You're looking for the ability to actually apply your skills in a real situation.  That takes a particular type of training.  There are several ways to get there, ranging from practicing classical koryu kata to Peyton Quinn's bulletman suit or other variants.  Rory Miller will give you a lot of tools if you buy his book *Drills: Training For Sudden Violence*.  (Shameless plug for someone I really need to actually train with, rather than bounce ideas.  Consider anything of his worth the money; I do.)  You have to expose yourself to realistic situations in a controlled environment so that you can then apply the lessons learned in chaotic environments.
.


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2012)

As I understand Systema (and I have a very crude understanding of Systema) - one of the underlying principles is that we no longer fight as the ancients did, i.e. from a formal stance and in "civilized combat" situations. The stances and punches in combination and form are outdated by the philosophy of Systema, therefore the focus is on fighting from natural positions with an emphasis on casual-looking yet deadly flow.  

In my experience, most older, experienced martial arts instructors who have spend decades in their respective style as well as supplementing with other styles *understand* this principle and have trained long enough to know how to make this work.

So should you decide to train another, more traditional style to start with it may help in understanding (though may be frustrating in the meantime) that these stances are to train muscle groups, balance, flexibility and as you spend more time in that art you will find those stances and your natural stance to blend into something workable for you.  This would be true of virtually all things you spend much time in practicing, Systema or not.

This may not be the answer you were looking for and believe me, I like what I've seen of Systema ... but you might find yourself better served if you *start* somewhere. Interview the teachers and masters and be truthful about your desire to train Systema. You might find someone with connections that might help make that a reality for you.

I *cautiously* advise you to carefully proceed with at least viewing the DVDs you have, but DO USE CAUTION - you may be surprised how quickly and easily one may get hurt or may hurt another.  One more reason a flesh-and-blood instructor is a good thing to have.

Good luck to you no matter what you choose.

Oh - and since you're interesting in flow, I think I'd recommend Aikido ... but it *is* a very traditional art.


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## Russian (Oct 10, 2012)

@shesulsa, What do you mean by flow?

I actually found out yesterday that there is an Aikido class that matches up perfectly with my schedule and I will be able to properly train twice a week. I mailed the trainer with tons of questions and am currently waiting for his response. Judging by the website, this may be as close as I can get to what I was looking for. Me and my friend will go to a trial lesson soon.

As a bonus, I would like to make a body-weight training schedule of 1 hour long sessions before school(6:30-7:30 am, school is at 8:10).

Finally everything seems to come together well 

I would also like to say thank you for the warm welcome and detailed answers. I hope I will stick in for a while.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 10, 2012)

Russian said:


> I hope I will stick in for a while.



That is the key to success with any martial arts style.  Keep training.  Most people do not.  Most people suck at martial arts.  The only way to suck less is to train more.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 10, 2012)

I have seen a lot of good answers above.  I would put in my two cents though.  I agree with those who say training from a DVD as your only way to train is not the best, and may cause problems in your learning some wrong techniques.  But you might want to look at this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101375-Hapkido-Online for an instructor who tries to combine DVD and a long distance instructor.  I don't know how well that is working, or how good he is, other than from his posts he seems sincere in wanting to help others learn.  Hapkido is a good art for what you describe, but no matter how good his method, *that still isn't the best way to learn*.

You mentioned an Aikido school near you.  That would be an excellent choice if the teacher there and you make a good fit.  Aikido, and Hapkido, are very defensive in nature.  It is painting with a very broad brush, but you could say Aikido is more gentle than Hapkido.  And that shows up in many of their techniques.  But remember, that is a very broad brush.  If Aikido is available, I strongly encourage you to try it.

Good luck in your quest.  Let us know how it goes for you.  And finally, Welcome to Martial Talk.


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## frank raud (Oct 10, 2012)

Russian said:


> I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.
> 
> 
> @jks9199 I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.



As someone who has studied and taught WWII combatives, and its derivitaves for over 20 years, there is little in "military" martial arts that you wouldn't learn by green belt in most traditional schools.


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2012)

Russian said:


> @shesulsa, What do you mean by flow?
> 
> I actually found out yesterday that there is an Aikido class that matches up perfectly with my schedule and I will be able to properly train twice a week. I mailed the trainer with tons of questions and am currently waiting for his response. Judging by the website, this may be as close as I can get to what I was looking for. Me and my friend will go to a trial lesson soon.
> 
> ...



Flow is the ease of transition as you approach or are approached moving into and during a fighting or defensive sequence with minimal telegraphing.

Telegraphing being that which gives clues as to what you're about to do next.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> As I understand Systema (and I have a very crude understanding of Systema) - *one of the underlying principles is that we no longer fight as the ancients did, i.e. from a formal stance and in "civilized combat" situations. The stances and punches in combination and form are outdated *by the philosophy of Systema, therefore the focus is on fighting from natural positions with an emphasis on casual-looking yet deadly flow.



I really know nothing about Systema, but if this is what they believe then I think they are confused by some things.  I've seen others make this kind of statement too, so it's not just systema.  Funny thing is, just last weekend my student and I were talking about this very thing in the context of our training, because in our method (a very traditional Chinese method) we use a very specifically stylized way of training our techniques, a way that would not seem efficient or practical in a real fight to those who do not understand what we are doing.

that stylized method is meant to train the connected use of the whole body when delivering technique.  Once you have developed the ability to do that, then you are able to do so no matter the form of your technique, even when using more "practical" forms of striking.  But in the philosophy of our training method, it is difficult or impossible to develop that full-body ability without using the more stylized method.  So if you skip over that method and go straight for the "practical" way of doing things, you will never realize the full potential, you never fully develop the ability to connect the full-body power to your techniques.

at least that's the way we see things.

In that light, it is my belief that people have always fought the way we do today, with some possible exceptions due to changes in clothing and/or armour over the centuries.  Other than that, I believe people always fought the way they do today, and never fought in that stylized fashion that is so popular in the movies.  It is my belief, in fact, that the movies are where that notion came from in the first place.

What I'm getting at is that I believe it is a myth, that fighting has changed.  I think you were getting at that in the rest of your post, but I thought I'd just add my own thoughts on it.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 10, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> I really know nothing about Systema, but if this is what they believe then I think they are confused by some things.  I've seen others make this kind of statement too, so it's not just systema.  Funny thing is, just last weekend my student and I were talking about this very thing in the context of our training, because in our method (a very traditional Chinese method) we use a very specifically stylized way of training our techniques, a way that would not seem efficient or practical in a real fight to those who do not understand what we are doing.
> 
> that stylized method is meant to train the connected use of the whole body when delivering technique.  Once you have developed the ability to do that, then you are able to do so no matter the form of your technique, even when using more "practical" forms of striking.  But in the philosophy of our training method, it is difficult or impossible to develop that full-body ability without using the more stylized method.  So if you skip over that method and go straight for the "practical" way of doing things, you will never realize the full potential, you never fully develop the ability to connect the full-body power to your techniques.
> 
> ...



Agreed

I trained Taijiquan and it is very stylized but in a real live fight it just does what it has to do and flows rather well. I trained Xingyiquan which also has its forms to train but you know what, it is very similar to Jun Fan Kung Fu at times in application. I have also trained police/military Sanda and there is no stance at all just fight from however you happen to be standing but I found all sorts of similarities in how it gets power to the strike with Taijiquan. 

And on fighting changing....IMO...it is mostly a sales pitch... People's bodies move the same now as they did 500 years ago so I doubt fighting, at least hand to hand, has changed all that much... this is not saying someone cannot come up with a new system that works well but it is still learning how to deal with confrontation within the limits of the human body


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Agreed
> 
> I trained Taijiquan and it is very stylized but in a real live fight it just does what it has to do and flows rather well. I trained Xingyiquan which also has its forms to train but you know what, it is very similar to Jun Fan Kung Fu at times in application. I have also trained police/military Sanda and there is no stance at all just fight from however you happen to be standing but I found all sorts of similarities in how it gets power to the strike with Taijiquan.
> 
> And on fighting changing....IMO...it is mostly a sales pitch... People's bodies move the same now as they did 500 years ago so I doubt fighting, at least hand to hand, has changed all that much... this is not saying someone cannot come up with a new system that works well but it is still learning how to deal with confrontation within the limits of the human body



yup.  If you see a White Crane person training, then it looks stylized.  If you see him fighting, it looks very much like anyone else.  There will be some subtle differences, but if you don't know what to look for then you would probably not notice.  Only someone who doesn't know what he is doing, would try to fight with the same stylization as when training.

I believe it has always been this way.


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## punisher73 (Oct 11, 2012)

Russian said:


> Well I have to admit I saw it coming, but it was worth a shot. I suppose I will not learn fighting from the videos, but I will at least watch them because I find them interesting.
> 
> As about finding a school - I have several available including Aikido, Karate, Wing Chung and *civilian Krav Maga*.
> Now the best choice for me is obviously Krav, but since it's the civilian variant it lacks some of the most interesting techniques. Another problem is that class takes place 2 times a week but I can only attend 1.
> ...



Talk to the instructor about the KM and tell him that your schedule at the time only allows for 1 day a week.  You can still practice at home what you learn in class and then refine it there.

As to the point about "civilian" KM.  That should be what you want.  KM was designed for military personal to kill and maim an attacker when all their weapons were gone.  Doing that stuff on the street will land you in prison very easily.  What you want is something designed for a regular citizen to use and how to apply it legally.


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## Russian (Oct 11, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Talk to the instructor about the KM and tell him that your schedule at the time only allows for 1 day a week.  You can still practice at home what you learn in class and then refine it there.
> 
> As to the point about "civilian" KM.  That should be what you want.  KM was designed for military personal to kill and maim an attacker when all their weapons were gone.  Doing that stuff on the street will land you in prison very easily.  What you want is something designed for a regular citizen to use and how to apply it legally.



Again, I am very interested in the said design - I value such offensive techniques very much. I will not go around killing people at the same fashion that gun nuts don't (always) shoot everyone who gets on their nerves, but who knows? It might come in very handy. Besides, it's not the only thing that they teach. As far as I understand, the goal is to take down the enemy as quick and as effective as possible. That's what I want.

As about training once in a week... Sure, that's possible. But I believe that training twice a week in Aikido will yield better results(especially because the trainer claims to teach self defense in the same fashion as Krav Maga). But I guess I will not know, until I go to a trial lesson next week.


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## Russian (Oct 11, 2012)

Sorry for double-posting, but it's either I'm blind or I'm not allowed to edit posts.

Either way I just talked to my instructor and he said things that are very very similar to what I was told here, especially  Flying Crane. He said that the school is pretty traditional, and that it's (in his opinion) the best way to learn. Eventually, as he told me, his students that now serve at the army in elite special forces, thank him very much for what he taught them. He says that I must proceed with caution and dedication without rushing, because only then will I unleash the true potential of the art.

He also said that the ability to survive in a fight depends very much on my personality. I can study for 2 years, 6 years, 10 and more, and still not be able to handle it. Hopefully I will


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## Flying Crane (Oct 11, 2012)

Russian said:


> Sorry for double-posting, but it's either I'm blind or I'm not allowed to edit posts.
> 
> Either way I just talked to my instructor and he said things that are very very similar to what I was told here, especially Flying Crane. He said that the school is pretty traditional, and that it's (in his opinion) the best way to learn. Eventually, as he told me, his students that now serve at the army in elite special forces, thank him very much for what he taught them. He says that I must proceed with caution and dedication without rushing, because only then will I unleash the true potential of the art.
> 
> He also said that the ability to survive in a fight depends very much on my personality. I can study for 2 years, 6 years, 10 and more, and still not be able to handle it. Hopefully I will



which instructor was this?  the KM guy or someone else?


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## Russian (Oct 12, 2012)

It was the Aikido instructor.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 12, 2012)

Russian said:


> ...
> 
> He also said that the ability to survive in a fight depends very much on my personality. I can study for 2 years, 6 years, 10 and more, and still not be able to handle it. Hopefully I will



I believe that is correct, and has been discussed before in different forums. If one pulls a weapon in defense, one must surely be prepared to use it. Fast and fully committed, since it should have been the last resort. Using our MA is similar. Other than reacting to the sudden unprovoked and unexpected attack, it should not be the first thing we do, but when we do, we must be fully committed. To do otherwise risks us more. Some people have a hard time with the idea that they are considering/doing something that is going to cause pain or injury to another person.

If that is your personality at this time, you need to work on the idea that what you are going to do is a last resort to prevent your own injury or death. Then any fault/guilt goes to the person attacking you. Aikidoists can correct me if I am wrong, but I think their philosophy is more to simple defense, some of which may in fact cause pain or injury, but the initial intent is simply to deflect and protect until an attacker gets tired and goes home. It might therefore be a good fit for you. If you do decide to take Aikido, or any other MA, be sure and discuss that with your teacher.


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## Russian (Oct 12, 2012)

I wouldn't say that causing harm is a problem. The real problem for me is the paralyzing fear I get when engaging combat, unexpected or otherwise. I never get that at the ring, and under it's effect I can't do half as good as usually. I see this as a major problem and thus overcoming it is a major goal when studying self-defense.


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## celestial_dragon (Oct 15, 2012)

As a couple of people posted, anything is possible. I say go for it, learning from a video is better than not learning at all.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 15, 2012)

Russian said:


> I wouldn't say that causing harm is a problem. The real problem for me is the paralyzing fear I get when engaging combat, unexpected or otherwise. I never get that at the ring, and under it's effect I can't do half as good as usually. I see this as a major problem and thus overcoming it is a major goal when studying self-defense.



That might be a part of Your personality. Accept it, and realise that the only thing stopping You is You.


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## Russian (Oct 18, 2012)

I've accepted it a long time ago, and I keep that in mind when there's even the slightest of chances for any sort of fight.
I just want to learn to overcome that...


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## Mz1 (Oct 24, 2012)

Russian said:


> Long version:
> After 3 years my gym closed, and so did my boxing class. But I still wanna continue training. I've been attacked several times during my life, and it taught me the same thing again and again - I am not capable of defending myself. I rock at the ring(best in my class), but in a real battle it's harder to control myself. Especially because there are *always* numerous attackers, and it's *always* a surprise. And please trust me when I say I do my best to avoid danger, and it still happens.
> So anyway, I would like to learn something more modern and actual for today's streets. I've deeply searched every class in my area and I was unable to find anything that focuses on actual self defense rather than sport and competitions.
> I have two choices - either to take a class that I know will not work for me, or to learn by books and DVDs. I have to say that self-teaching has never disappointed me, but this is a special case.
> So far I have various Systema DVDs by Vladimir Vasiliev, teaching all sorts of useful stuff(hand to hand,




I'm sorry, but this sounds very much like a commercial advertisement for Systema. 

Or if you claim to be "the best in your class" but only with 3 years of experience in Boxing, then I must question that this Boxing gym that closed down, didn't have too many high level fighters or may even be, not very good. 

Most boxing gyms in America, sparring is often and usually for full knockdowns or knockouts. Boxers learn to fight at a really fast pace compared to Traditional MA and Self Defense. Self Defense, in general, only spars light to medium because they can't really attack someone's eyeballs or groin with full powered strikes during training.

A trained and experienced Boxer who've fought in the ring, should have excellent fighting capabilities vs. the average, untrained streetfighter or touhguy. Toughguys on the streets don't fight every week. Boxer do, because full sparring is really a fight as they're trying to knock someone down or out. How many streetfights really lasts more than 2-3 minute rounds? Average sparring is 4-6 rounds (2-3 minutes each) per Boxing workout (usually 2-3 days a week).

Now a pure Boxer vs. MMA in the street (or in the ring, or wherever), then I can see how there would be problems as the Boxer doesn't know how to address kicks, clinch fighting and the worse, takedowns. Even on the streets, and your footwork fails and you get cornered or clinched, then Boxing alone is not enough, but still way better than most Self Defense classes taught.

Unless you're fighting well trained street thugs, which is a possibility, then of course you're screwed. But vs. untrained toughguys, an experienced Boxer would just use superior punches and footwork. Hitting someone in the face to KO them works just as well in the streets as it does in the ring. There's obviously no guarantees though, especially vs. multiple opponents. Much worse if your training doesn't consist of hitting someone at full force for real and getting hit back the same, like the way it is in most Self Defense schools. 

It's not bad to train Self Defense such as Systema. Any training is better than nothing. Just don't put too much stock in play fighting with a ton of gear on, and especially not training through DVD's.


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## Instructor (Oct 24, 2012)

To the OP whatever you decide to do I wish you the very best of luck.  Generally speaking training in person is superior to distance learning.  I don't know about systema but that is true of most other martial arts.

The best site I have seen about distance learning programs is this:

http://www.blackbeltdl.com/

The best way to overcome fear is a combination of counseling and actually doing the thing you are afraid of.  Not that you should be out there picking fights.  But if you can simulate combat in a martial arts class it should help a bit.  I suggest something with a lot of contact like mma.


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