# I like Kenpo...



## billc (May 7, 2014)

I like Kenpo...that's it really...some people think I need to post more in the martial arts section...so...I posted...


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## Touch Of Death (May 7, 2014)

billc said:


> I like Kenpo...that's it really...some people think I need to post more in the martial arts section...so...I posted...


Oh, where did you get this one? G. Gordon Liddy?


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## tshadowchaser (May 7, 2014)

ok so what do you like about it or what dislikes do you have on Kenpo.  Guess I need to ask what version of Kenpo also


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## Tames D (May 7, 2014)

billc said:


> I like Kenpo...that's it really...some people think I need to post more in the martial arts section...so...I posted...



But you're doing it wrong


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## Touch Of Death (May 7, 2014)

Tames D said:


> But you're doing it wrong


I was going to say, his technique is all off.


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## Touch Of Death (May 7, 2014)

You see, he keeps leaning to the right for some reason.


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## Takai (May 7, 2014)

billc said:


> I like Kenpo...that's it really...some people think I need to post more in the martial arts section...so...I posted...



Good for you.


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## Flying Crane (May 8, 2014)

billc said:


> I like Kenpo...that's it really...some people think I need to post more in the martial arts section...so...I posted...



nobody thinks you need to post more in the martial arts discussions, if that's not what you are genuinely interested in discussing.  However, given your posting history, some of us feel that you should be honest with the readership about the fact that you are a paid conservative lobbyist pushing a deliberately deceptive message regarding global climate change, among other things.  Just be honest about that, so people understand where your true motivations come from.


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## Transk53 (May 8, 2014)

Flying Crane said:


> nobody thinks you need to post more in the martial arts discussions, if that's not what you are genuinely interested in discussing.  However, given your posting history, some of us feel that you should be honest with the readership about the fact that you are a paid conservative lobbyist pushing a deliberately deceptive message regarding global climate change, among other things.  Just be honest about that, so people understand where your true motivations come from.



Late to the party on the overall posting stuff. This is no terms meant to disrespect the being, just the  personal views, (nobody on this board or in particular anybody else) but in the UK, and this is my own concerted opinion, C = middle ground deception. L = Lets get the people on board for lobbying and erroneous targets. Lib = I don't have a ****ing clue about anything. The truth eludes them etc etc etc etc


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## billc (May 8, 2014)

Kosho Shorie Kempo through Roland Roemer via, Bruce Juchnik...plus one belt rank from the Tracy system when I was in grade school...



> Late  to the party on the overall posting stuff. This is no terms meant to  disrespect the being, just the  personal views, (nobody on this board or  in particular anybody else) but in the UK, and this is my own concerted  opinion, C = middle ground deception. L = Lets get the people on board  for lobbying and erroneous targets. Lib = I don't have a ****ing clue  about anything. The truth eludes them etc etc etc etc



Just to save you some grief from the moderators...political discussion of any sort needs to be confined to the Study or the Basement...they get testy when you start posting about non-martial arts related stuff in the martial arts related areas...:wavey:

You should repost this in the study, we are pretty friendly to political talk in that forum...and someone from across the pond would be a great asset in there...


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## billc (May 8, 2014)

> nobody  thinks you need to post more in the martial arts discussions, if that's  not what you are genuinely interested in discussing.  However, given  your posting history, some of us feel that you should be honest with the  readership about the fact that you are a paid conservative lobbyist  pushing a deliberately deceptive message regarding global climate  change, among other things.  Just be honest about that, so people  understand where your true motivations come from.



No, it is not a deceptive message...man made global warming hysteria is just that hysteria...now any further discussion needs to be taken to a place where this topic is allowed...more than happy to talk about this in the Basement...


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## seasoned (May 8, 2014)

People, lets stay on topic with the OP. Cheap shots are just that.


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## billc (May 8, 2014)

Well...cheap shots are nice because the aren't "expensive" shots...now those are...well..expensive...


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## seasoned (May 8, 2014)

Cheap or expensive makes no difference, they will not be tolerated on this side of the fence. This is not up for debate.


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2014)

billc said:


> No, it is not a deceptive message...man made global warming hysteria is just that hysteria...now any further discussion needs to be taken to a place where this topic is allowed...more than happy to talk about this in the Basement...



Might want to take your own advice....read the quote to follow



billc said:


> Just to save you some grief from the moderators...political discussion of any sort needs to be confined to the Study or the Basement...they get testy when you start posting about non-martial arts related stuff in the martial arts related areas...:wavey:
> 
> You should repost this in the study, we are pretty friendly to political talk in that forum...and someone from across the pond would be a great asset in there...


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## billc (May 8, 2014)

Hmmm...I start a simple topic..."I like kenpo".  Flying Crane comes  in with politics from another thread, I answer the question,  politely direct him off of this martial arts read and to the appropriate forum and then Xue Sheng tells me to take my own advice...

I am the victim here...all I wanted to do was make a statement about kenpo...and I get followed and criticized by people who disagree with my opinions on other topics...

I thought this was the kenpo forum...

I demand justice...:EG:


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## Tames D (May 8, 2014)

billc said:


> Hmmm...I start a simple topic..."I like kenpo".  Flying Crane comes  in with politics from another thread, I answer the question,  politely direct him off of this martial arts read and to the appropriate forum and then Xue Sheng tells me to take my own advice...
> 
> I am the victim here...all I wanted to do was make a statement about kenpo...and I get followed and criticized by people who disagree with my opinions on other topics...
> 
> ...



I think you have at least one groupie that follows you from thread to thread. I thought they wanted to avoid you and your posts


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## drop bear (May 8, 2014)

billc said:


> I like Kenpo...that's it really...some people think I need to post more in the martial arts section...so...I posted...




Do you spar?


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## Xue Sheng (May 9, 2014)

billc said:


> Hmmm...I start a simple topic..."I like kenpo".  Flying Crane comes  in with politics from another thread, I answer the question,  politely direct him off of this martial arts read and to the appropriate forum and then *Xue Sheng tells me to take my own advice...
> *
> I am the victim here...all I wanted to do was make a statement about kenpo...and I get followed and criticized by people who disagree with my opinions on other topics...
> 
> ...



Which apparently you haven't.


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## Grenadier (May 9, 2014)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this discussion civil, and on-topic.  If you wish to make political statements, take it to the appropriate forum.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Admininstrator


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## tshadowchaser (May 9, 2014)

Back to the question I asked earlier:

what do you like about it and what (if anything) do you not like about it?  why do you like it

are there techniques that are particular favorites?


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## Transk53 (May 9, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Back to the question I asked earlier:
> 
> what do you like about it and what (if anything) do you not like about it?  why do you like it
> 
> are there techniques that are particular favorites?



I would be interested to hear about Kenpo in general. Yeah Billc, please elaborate?


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## billc (May 9, 2014)

Well, I think it was less the Kenpo and more the people teaching it.  Both Roland Roemer and Bruce Juchnik were focused on why and how things worked and kenpo was one of their vehicles for getting that done.  They taught understanding the way to people in combat interacted, the timing, distance and angle and when and where you wanted to be postioned in relation to an attacker.  I have to say Roland is an excellent teacher.  You would look at a student doing something and you knew it was wrong but I couldn't explain how to correct it...he would come in and in a few short words get the student doing the right thing...amazing.  Bruce Juchnik...when I first attended one of his seminars (he would come to our school about 4 times a year )  I was amazed.  I've seen Ed Parker move, as young guy on film and later when he was older...and I have to say Bruce was better...he knew how to apply the art and was amazing to watch when he did it.  When he was doing technique based on his Chinese Kempo background...his arms were like they were spring loaded and he was in complete control of his attacker...you had to see it...

Both Roland and Bruce brought in experience from other arts to our training as well.  Roland and our other instructor Dan Pauley trained with a man named Dennis Decker...He had been a long time student of Shotokan and Judo, back in the 60s and 70s and he made the tranistion to Kung Fu in a way I haven't seen other hard stylists from shotokan manage...more later...


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## KenpoDave (May 13, 2014)

I'll try to keep this as close to topic as I can...

I like kenpo, too.


Dave Hopper


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## Pwen Arye (May 13, 2014)

KenpoDave said:


> I'll try to keep this as close to topic as I can...
> 
> I like kenpo, too.
> 
> ...


So do I. High five everyone :highfive:


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## ShazamKenpo (May 30, 2014)

The reason I like Kenpo, is I like that there is a whole wealth of knowledge that goes into art itself.   Because Kenpo is a "newer" art based on influences of other styles there tends to be a more "scientific" approach and not one tied so much to tradition.  That is not to say all traditional arts are bad or inferior, not the case I believe one needs to find his/her own path(s) for myself I like the study that has gone into the Kenpo style and techniques.


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## Milt G. (Jun 21, 2014)

Can we discuss "Kenpo" politics...???  LOL


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## Tames D (Jun 21, 2014)

Milt G. said:


> Can we discuss "Kenpo" politics...???  LOL


Sure... I believe it's been a while since a 10th degee has been awarded :lol:


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## billc (Jun 21, 2014)

Kenpo politics...sure...and if the moderators give us a warning we can move it to the basement...


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 21, 2014)

billc said:


> Kenpo politics...sure...and if the moderators give us a warning we can move it to the basement...


Like you own Kenpo politics? Not so fast.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 21, 2014)

i dont like kenpo....
just saying....


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 21, 2014)

so heres a question,  science?  wheres the science?  can someone give me some examples.  well thought out answers would be good with links for the reference material.
and before anyone starts gettting their panties in a knot, i have a 3rd degree black belt in kenpo and taught it for some time. i moved on and found other arts i like better, so i am not really a hater.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 21, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> so heres a question,  science?  wheres the science?  can someone give me some examples.  well thought  so i am not really a hater.


Ah, but you are.  What is not scientific to you?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 21, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ah, but you are.  What is not scientific to you?


Here is an example... center line. Use it... don't use it. Science Baby.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 21, 2014)

im not a hater, was more poking fun at Bills short one line statement.
center line is not science and its not new.  wing chun has used then center line and central line "methology" for a long time.

an example of science would be how the frontal cortex and the amlygdala and thalamus all interact in a self defense system and that the best defenses are done without the input from the frontal cortex.
Stress And The Brain: JaimeTartar at TEDxNSU - YouTube


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 21, 2014)

http://www.realfighting.com/content.php?id=66



> "Once adrenaline kicks in, it will likely reinforce your initial response. If you are frozen, you might find it even harder to break out of it and take action. This is especially likely if you are overwhelmed by an unfamiliar adrenaline surge and misinterpret the feelings associated with it as fear or panic. "




so this is the science of the adrenal system, does your martial art take into consideration the effects of the "chemical cocktail" that will be surging in your system?  if so how do you trian for it?  what techniques will not work under these stressors and how do you compensate for it?


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## Tames D (Jun 21, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> i dont like kenpo....
> just saying....



I can understand why you feel that way. It's basically a scientific, non effective slap art. At least that's what I've heard many times.


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## KenpoDave (Jun 21, 2014)

Science is a body of knowledge (martial art) that can be rationally explained (by a good instructor) and reliably applied (it works the way it was explained).

The science is everywhere, but, like any other discipline, is dependent on the skill of the scientist when applied.



Dave Hopper


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 21, 2014)

i dont even care if it is a "slap art"  people call it scientific. i just dont see it.  i think thats something Ed Parker said back in the 60"s to make it sound like its something new and better and people have been regurgitating that saying ever since.  to be honest the older styles can be more scientific they just dont say it like that.  i think calling kenpo scientific was a way for parker to combat the negative attitudes associated with a hodgpodge art that has no "correct linage".  Parker himself said Mitose was a poor martial artist and that he was not impressed by him.  so if Mitose was the seed of the art then mixed in with a little Chow and this and that how else was he suposed to market it.  but its a modern art you say... really?  you stand in a horse stance, doing borrowed forms from other styles, doing the same strikes and kicks every other art uses, same wrist controlls same takedowns,,,  geez its just the same ol' same ol'   
the thing is i really like the idea of kenpo its just that the results more often then not fall very short of the promise. 
"use what is usefull and discard the rest"  I LOVE THIS SAYING!!   this is something i live by but it only applies to Parker, Cerio and Villari.  i challenge anyone to go into their school and tell the teacher that you feel these forms your learning are a waste of time and therefore under Parkers guidlines you have decided your not going to do them anymore and replace the techniques you have been shown with new ones.
little conflict of interest ?  how can you discard something as not usefull and still maintain the integrity of an art?  if Ed Parker taught you something useless could you discard it?  would the testing board accept your conclusions?  

"use what is usefull and discard the rest".....so i discarded kenpo


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 21, 2014)

Dave you are correct.
Science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i really shouldnt be jumping all over kenpo, (i really didnt mean to)  most other arts are guilty to the same degree.  i am just venting my grievences against martial arts in general and it just so happens that kenpo is an art i spent many years doing.

my grievence is that proponents of martial arts claim certain things and cannot meet the claims made.
" rationally explained and reliably applied "  great claim but this is an assumption.  kenpos abilty to be put into use and used effectively is an assumption and one with a huge bias and a self promoting tone.  the kiss of death to all arts is the "assumption".
one assumes because you study a martial art you will be an effective fighter. one thing does not equal the other.  all i want is a little honesty. all i want is one art ,just one to fess up and say no we wont really make you a good fighter but its a lot of fun to work out and its good for your health and youll meet lots of other great people, but fighting no were not so good for that.


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## donald1 (Jun 21, 2014)

Body of knowledge?  Exactly what do you mean by that?


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 21, 2014)

Dave you have on your web sight "James Mitose *21st Great Grandmaster of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo Karate."  

James Mitose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*how is Mitose the great grand master of anything?   he left Hawaii at age 4 in 1920 and returned to the states at age 21 in 1935 and in that time he became the 21st grand master ?   now Mitose karate is obviously an okinawan art his only kata was naihanchi, karate did not exist in Japan untill Funikoshi arrived in 1922.  so i have to assume he studied shotokan for a few years or he was a BS artist who didnt study anything but rather read Funikoshi's and Motobu's books and got his karate from there.. during the time he was in Japan there are no other alternitives to explain his art. he didnt go to okinawa and karate didnt exisit other than Funikoshi on the mainland.  so what exaclty is he the grandmaster of?  on any and all accounts he is a practioner of okinawan karate at best and he is not Motobu's or Funikoshi's direct successor.

see this is the type of stuff that makes kenpo lose all credibilty!!!!!  stop trying to remake history people!!


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2014)

OK not science but scientific method.

Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because one of my coaches is a gigantic brain guy. And explains mma by these principals.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> http://www.realfighting.com/content.php?id=66
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No its not. And this just irks me. 

Your link is to an opinion piece. Of a guy who is not a scientist.

I have no real opinion on kempo either way. For the record.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Body of knowledge?  Exactly what do you mean by that?


An outline of what it encompasses.  Or all the stuff. LOL


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 22, 2014)

Drop bear , of course you are right about the link. sorry.  but i was trying to find something to link to about the effects of the adrenal system in fighting and that was the best i could find quickly. but i do belive the info in the piece is accurate.  i wanted something from a science journal but i couldnt find it.
the point i was trying to make tho was that learning about how the brain operates or maybe a study on the bio-mechanics of movents or phychology effects within violent behavoir would be a science and that learning a center line theory is a training methology no different really than keeping your hands up and bobing and weaving in boxing.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> Drop bear , of course you are right about the link. sorry.  but i was trying to find something to link to about the effects of the adrenal system in fighting and that was the best i could find quickly. but i do belive the info in the piece is accurate.  i wanted something from a science journal but i couldnt find it.
> the point i was trying to make tho was that learning about how the brain operates or maybe a study on the bio-mechanics of movents or phychology effects within violent behavoir would be a science and that learning a center line theory is a training methology no different really than keeping your hands up and bobing and weaving in boxing.


That is a sweet science, and measurable in effectiveness compared with more hare brained methods.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 22, 2014)

Touch of death,  i would concede to your statement except that all arts have training methods like this. wing chun has the centerline/ central line, aikido has irimi and tenkan movments, kali has the triangle.  kenpo says it is based on science unlike the other arts which are not. i would then have to deduce from reasoning that if all the other arts have similar conventions in their training then either this is not science or kenpo is no different than other arts and the satement is false.
there have been training philosophys as far back as Alexander the great, the greeks and the romans. probably even before.  the Romans became one of the greatest empires on earth because of its methodical and disaplined fighters and tactics.  tactics are but one factor in combat but as you say its more effective to have good tactics then not. all fighting systems have well thought out tactics and so this does not make kenpo unique.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> Drop bear , of course you are right about the link. sorry.  but i was trying to find something to link to about the effects of the adrenal system in fighting and that was the best i could find quickly. but i do belive the info in the piece is accurate.  i wanted something from a science journal but i couldnt find it.
> the point i was trying to make tho was that learning about how the brain operates or maybe a study on the bio-mechanics of movents or phychology effects within violent behavoir would be a science and that learning a center line theory is a training methology no different really than keeping your hands up and bobing and weaving in boxing.




Yeah I had a look as far as an opinion piece it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. At least the guy was an MD and had a PhD in something. ( I couldn't find out what)

Yeah I think we are touching on scientific method again here.


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## donald1 (Jun 22, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> An outline of what it encompasses.  Or all the stuff. LOL



Sounds confusing...  But interesting


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> Touch of death,  i would concede to your statement except that all arts have training methods like this. wing chun has the centerline/ central line, aikido has irimi and tenkan movments, kali has the triangle.  kenpo says it is based on science unlike the other arts which are not. i would then have to deduce from reasoning that if all the other arts have similar conventions in their training then either this is not science or kenpo is no different than other arts and the satement is false.
> there have been training philosophys as far back as Alexander the great, the greeks and the romans. probably even before.  the Romans became one of the greatest empires on earth because of its methodical and disaplined fighters and tactics.  tactics are but one factor in combat but as you say its more effective to have good tactics then not. all fighting systems have well thought out tactics and so this does not make kenpo unique.


Kenpo means someone's method of fighting with the fists; so, I wasn't saying it was different. LOL And I am guessing Alexander was only a blip when it comes to the history of fighting.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 22, 2014)

> I wasn't saying it was different.



you may not have said it was but it was mentioned in this thread and it is a common narative.  Alexander may have played a major part in the history of martial arts.  Alexander in the quest to dominate, moved all the way to india.  when not in combat the troops entertained themselves with a competitive fights for sport. this kept the men in shape and skills sharp.  the combat method was called pankration.
Pankration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
( note: original pankration disapeared within history the modern art is a repackaged form of MMA)
it is often belived that because alexanders men always intergrated within the culture that the Greek pankration is the basis for the fighting arts of India mixed with the native exersize of "forms" and spread east to create Chinese boxing and karate.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> you may not have said it was but it was mentioned in this thread and it is a common narative.  Alexander may have played a major part in the history of martial arts.  Alexander in the quest to dominate, moved all the way to india.  when not in combat the troops entertained themselves with a competitive fights for sport. this kept the men in shape and skills sharp.  the combat method was called pankration.
> Pankration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ( note: original pankration disapeared within history the modern art is a repackaged form of MMA)
> it is often belived that because alexanders men always intergrated within the culture that the Greek pankration is the basis for the fighting arts of India mixed with the native exersize of "forms" and spread east to create Chinese boxing and karate.


I find that very funny.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> I find that very funny.


I mean, Thank God for the White Man, or martial arts simply wouldn't exist.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 22, 2014)

you may find it funny but its following the verbal mythology.  Japanese karate is from okinawa, okinawa karate means chinese hands and comes from interactions with the chinese.  the chinese say wushu "boxing" came from Bodhidharma who traveled to china from India over the silk road and taught the shaolin monks fighting forms.  India is where Alexanders men retired and settled.  this would only apply to just that one line and does not have anything to do with other Japanese arts like Aiki, judo or samurai arts.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 22, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> you may find it funny but its following the verbal mythology.  Japanese karate is from okinawa, okinawa karate means chinese hands and comes from interactions with the chinese.  the chinese say wushu "boxing" came from Bodhidharma who traveled to china from India over the silk road and taught the shaolin monks fighting forms.  India is where Alexanders men retired and settled.  this would only apply to just that one line and does not have anything to do with other Japanese arts like Aiki, judo or samurai arts.


Tracing some half mythological history is fun but if you think about it, civilizations have risen and fallen, through out the history of the world, and to even half consider they never, "waxed on, and waxed off" is absolutely golden. Real comedy is afoot here.


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## Buka (Jun 22, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> you may find it funny but its following the verbal mythology.  Japanese karate is from okinawa, okinawa karate means chinese hands and comes from interactions with the chinese.  the chinese say wushu "boxing" came from Bodhidharma who traveled to china from India over the silk road and taught the shaolin monks fighting forms.  India is where Alexanders men retired and settled.  this would only apply to just that one line and does not have anything to do with other Japanese arts like Aiki, judo or samurai arts.



Bodhidrama, Alexander, Samurais, Bruce Lee, Japanese, Okinawans, etc. Just a bunch a guys who did Martial arts. Just like you, just like  him, just like her, just like them. Don't let anybody tell you  different.


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## KenpoDave (Jun 23, 2014)

But you can say the same of any other science. 

Kenpo CAN be rationally explained and CAN be reliably applied. 

I HAVE taught it to people who used it effectively on a regular basis.

The fault of unreliable results is not Kenpo. It falls on the explainers and the appliers.


Dave Hopper


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 23, 2014)

KenpoDave said:


> But you can say the same of any other science.
> 
> Kenpo CAN be rationally explained and CAN be reliably applied.
> 
> ...


IDtenT Error.


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## Milt G. (Jun 29, 2014)

I think there is a difference in the art "itself", and the various "applications" thereof.
Some students of the "classical" don't apply what they learned in that same way.
Make sense?

First you have to learn the recognized form, and function, of "music"...
After some time, you are able to make your "own music".  Based upon the "principles" of what you have learned.


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