# Ends and Means



## bushidomartialarts (Feb 12, 2007)

So I recently started watching an older show called The Shield.  For those who don't know it, the protagonist is an anti-hero.  He does bad things, he's probably a bad person, but he's an effective cop and is shown being the cause of good things even though he himself is very, very bad.

Which got me thinking --  why does that particular character type appeal to so many Americans (myself among 'em)?  And while I'm at it, all you not-yanks out there -- does that character enjoy the same popularity in your cultures of origin, or is this a US thing?

Curious.


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2007)

Because perfect people are boring.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 12, 2007)

Down here in Australia that kind of character is popular with many, but not to the extent that it seems to be in the states.  The particular character in The Shield is beyond the Pale however.  He is a drug-dealer and a murderer who occassionally enforces the law.


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Down here in Australia that kind of character is popular with many, but not to the extent that it seems to be in the states. The particular character in The Shield is beyond the Pale however. He is a drug-dealer and a murderer who occassionally enforces the law.


 
Really?  I've never seen the show.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 12, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> The particular character in The Shield is beyond the Pale however.  He is a drug-dealer and a murderer who occassionally enforces the law.



Yeah, that's sort of my point.  That's exactly what he is and yet I find myself often rooting for the guy.  I wonder what it is about some part of my psyche or culture that even makes that possible.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 12, 2007)

```
Which got me thinking -- why does that particular character type appeal to so many Americans
```
IMHO the shows(Law and order.CSI what have you) would be as stated before dull without some sort of drama or action. Maybe its appealing that watching a cop actually use street justice vs. a cop who on another show uses wit(Law and order criminal intent) I think darker heroes or anti heroes add more excitement because they hang on the edge of what we think is "good" and "evil"
it can be dull watching a cookie cutter hero(think of Superman in the 50's)
I also think a cop who can go over the edge at times shows an inner part of the psyche that shows he or she is human which we can relate to and even forgive based on our own views of morals.
anyway just my thoughts.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 12, 2007)

Personally, I prefer characters like Horatio Caine from CSi:Miami.  With this character there is no doubt that he is on the side of the angels but he is willing to seriously contort the law, but not break it, to achieve his end.  I think that The Shield portrays a character who is already lost.  Perhaps it was intended to be about his redemption, a bit like good ol' Darth Vader.


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## evenflow1121 (Feb 13, 2007)

It makes it exciting, while I do not think that being a criminal is appealing to most, it is the fact that this particular character lives on the edge.  I also think that 100% do-gooders have been overly explored and people want something different, something that perhaps they can relate to, a character that is not perfect, is not 100% invulnerable to life's temptations, but still has strong enough convictions to do the right thing when it counts.  And yep I like CSI Miami as well.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2007)

Of course the Character of LT. Macky Is based on Machiavelli. We enjoy watching a person use the system, and for the sake of the story he is always on the fence. In real life people get walked on hard, by people like this.
Sean


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## Ceicei (Feb 13, 2007)

Maybe there is the hope somewhere that the bad guy would eventually end up back on the good side, since he evidently does do some stuff for good.  He could be appealing to many, because simply he is the extreme of the good/bad we all have.  Having said that, The Shield is not my favorite show and I wouldn't care if that show got cancelled.  

I much prefer CSI: Miami and watch Horatio Caine do his brand of justice.  He's bold, he's frank, and not afraid to back down; yet knows when to show compassion.  A rare combination of character.

- Ceicei


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2007)

Ceicei said:


> Maybe there is the hope somewhere that the bad guy would eventually end up back on the good side, since he evidently does do some stuff for good. He could be appealing to many, because simply he is the extreme of the good/bad we all have. Having said that, The Shield is not my favorite show and I wouldn't care if that show got cancelled.
> 
> I much prefer CSI: Miami and watch Horatio Caine do his brand of justice. He's bold, he's frank, and not afraid to back down; yet knows when to show compassion. A rare combination of character.
> 
> - Ceicei


The whole Glenn Close thing just turned me off to the whole show. The Brough on Forest Whitaker to save the show, but I'm afraid its a lost cause.
Sean


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## Infinite (Feb 13, 2007)

What people love more than a hero... is a hero fall.

What people want to believe is that they are capable of anything.

What people want is to know that even the bad guys are human too.

People want the moral / emotional authority to do things they have always wanted to but are wrong.

In the end everyone has a little bit of a bad guy in them and we'd like to think even mostly bad we would still be good.

--Infy


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## JBrainard (Feb 13, 2007)

I think Infinite has it down pretty well.
I would add: Someone once said that the villain in a story is always much more interesting than the hero. With the anti-hero you get the best of both worlds. A complex, dark, and interesting character that you can root for.


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## zDom (Feb 13, 2007)

I think it is because it has the ring of truth.

Shows with characters like those in "The Shield", "The Sopranos" and others with some depth reflect what we know about people:

even those are generally "bad people" aren't necessarily horrible to their friends all the time; some love their kids, are kind to their family ...

and people who we think are generally "good" sometimes do horrible things or have dark secrets ...


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## Flatlander (Feb 14, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> And while I'm at it, all you not-yanks out there -- does that character enjoy the same popularity in your cultures of origin, or is this a US thing?
> 
> Curious.


Not purely a US thing: my dad is a retired cop, Canadian, and loves that character.  Never seen the show, myself.


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## zDom (Feb 15, 2007)

Add Hannibal Lector to my list of characters with depth 

I just saw "Hannibal Rising" last night.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 15, 2007)

zDom said:


> Add Hannibal Lector to my list of characters with depth
> 
> I just saw "Hannibal Rising" last night.



let's add professor snape to that list.

he may be the single most complex character ever in childrens' literature.


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## Adept (Feb 18, 2007)

And, of course, Commander Samuel Vimes.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 18, 2007)

but commander samuel vimes is unremittingly, uncompromisingly good.

he's hard core, but his story is one of redemption.  vic mackey (far as i've seen thus far) is the story of a fall.

sam vimes does, however, kick ***.


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## Adept (Feb 19, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> but commander samuel vimes is unremittingly, uncompromisingly good.
> 
> he's hard core, but his story is one of redemption.  vic mackey (far as i've seen thus far) is the story of a fall.
> 
> sam vimes does, however, kick ***.



Yes, but we get to see into his head, and understand the constant titanic struggle between doing what he wants, and doing what he should.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 20, 2007)

a fair point.


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