# Simple site launched to help educate on pronunciation



## andyjeffries (Oct 24, 2017)

Having got fed up with people mispronouncing Taekwondo, I put this site live this morning. Feel free to use it to point people to when they ruin the name of our beloved art and sport:

How do you say Taekwondo?


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> Having got fed up with people mispronouncing Taekwondo, I put this site live this morning. Feel free to use it to point people to when they ruin the name of our beloved art and sport:
> 
> How do you say Taekwondo?


 Are you serious? This seems like a really pretentious thing to do. Do you know how many people mispronounce Karate? Ruin the name? Dramatic much?


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## TrueJim (Oct 24, 2017)

*tay-Gwon-dough*

Yes...no? I hear some people pronounce it that way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Are you serious? This seems like a really pretentious thing to do. Do you know how many people mispronounce Karate? Ruin the name? Dramatic much?


The presentation isn't at all pretentious.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The presentation isn't at all pretentious.


I meant the act of creating a website for something as simple as a mispronunciation of one word and using terms like "ruin". It seems over the top and dramatic


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I meant the act of creating a website for something as simple as a mispronunciation of one word and using terms like "ruin". It seems over the top and dramatic


I understand. When I checked the site, though, it seemed well executed. No arrogance or drama in the presentation. But then I can get a bit persnickety about things like that (and am one of the people mispronouncing it).


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> and am one of the people mispronouncing it


What? How dare you ruin it!!!!!


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## TrueJim (Oct 24, 2017)

Actually, it's pronounced Throat Warbler Mangrove.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 24, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Are you serious? This seems like a really pretentious thing to do. Do you know how many people mispronounce Karate? Ruin the name? Dramatic much?


I found it funny actually. 
@andyjeffries, it would be cool if you added in pronunciation of other TKD terms, like poomsae and ping-an


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> *tay-Gwon-dough*
> 
> Yes...no? I hear some people pronounce it that way.



I think that's a regional dialect thing. Like some Koreans say more like "Gangnam" and others more like "Kangnam" (never an aspirated "k" but at least more "k" than "g").


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I meant the act of creating a website for something as simple as a mispronunciation of one word and using terms like "ruin". It seems over the top and dramatic



Never Walk By a Mistake | The Art of Manliness

To you it's simply, to me (who admittedly feels like he has undiagnosed OCD for mistakes) it's highly irritating.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Are you serious? This seems like a really pretentious thing to do. Do you know how many people mispronounce Karate? Ruin the name? Dramatic much?



In my opinion, it would feel pretentious if I plastered my name all over the site.

The issue is important.

The WTF even put out an article in the 1980s on how to correctly write Taekwondo as all one word and how to call people who do Taekwondo. To them the name of the art and the people who do it is important, I just find the pronunciation to also be important. I can imagine they do too, but at that time didn't think anyone was mispronouncing it.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 25, 2017)

The 


andyjeffries said:


> I think that's a regional dialect thing. Like some Koreans say more like "Gangnam" and others more like "Kangnam" (never an aspirated "k" but at least more "k" than "g").



I can buy that as an explanation. Our KJN, who is a native born Korean speaker, pronounces it Tae-Gwan-Dough.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I found it funny actually.
> @andyjeffries, it would be cool if you added in pronunciation of other TKD terms, like poomsae and ping-an


Interestingly, I pronounce the "ae" properly in "poomsae" and improperly in "taekwondo". As I think through the few terms I know, I think alternate pretty evenly between "ay" and "eye" as the pronunciation.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Interestingly, I pronounce the "ae" properly in "poomsae" and improperly in "taekwondo". As I think through the few terms I know, I think alternate pretty evenly between "ay" and "eye" as the pronunciation.



That's funny (that you alternate pronunciation)! The good thing is that Korean (except for the "sound changes") is very consistent in pronunciation. Ae should always be Ay, never Eye (there is no "Eye" sound in Korean).

Sound changes - certain consonants change sound when placed next to certain consonants. The vowels never change sound. As an example - Hanguk = Korea, mal = language but it's not pronounced as Hangukmal, but Hangungmal.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 25, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> Never Walk By a Mistake | The Art of Manliness
> 
> To you it's simply, to me (who admittedly feels like he has undiagnosed OCD for mistakes) it's highly irritating.


Please tell me you noticed the "simply" mistake in that post.


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2017)

i get irritated by people who mix and match premise and premises, particularly the seemingly high number of people who use premise as the singular of premises when refering to a building, but that is as nothing to my ire at people who say " i have two choices" when they have ,ONE choice but two options from which to choose, . I did for some while seek to educate people , but found that this made me unpopular. 

so i only do it now if i want to annoy them


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> That's funny (that you alternate pronunciation)! The good thing is that Korean (except for the "sound changes") is very consistent in pronunciation. Ae should always be Ay, never Eye (there is no "Eye" sound in Korean).
> 
> Sound changes - certain consonants change sound when placed next to certain consonants. The vowels never change sound. As an example - Hanguk = Korea, mal = language but it's not pronounced as Hangukmal, but Hangungmal.


As I understand it, some of the same happens in Japanese. Sometimes a K sound is a G (or maybe it's the other way around), for instance. I think it depends upon the following sound, at least in some cases. (Can you tell how sketchy my knowledge is?)


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> i get irritated by people who mix and match premise and premises, particularly the seemingly high number of people who use premise as the singular of premises when refering to a building, but that is as nothing to my ire at people who say " i have two choices" when they have ,ONE choice but two options from which to choose, . I did for some while seek to educate people , but found that this made me unpopular.
> 
> so i only do it now if i want to annoy them


The two that bug me most, no matter how much I try to just let it go, are "irregardless" in place of either "regardless" or "irrespective", and "infer" in place of "imply" ("She inferred that she wanted us to do that for her.").


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> As I understand it, some of the same happens in Japanese. Sometimes a K sound is a G (or maybe it's the other way around), for instance. I think it depends upon the following sound, at least in some cases. (Can you tell how sketchy my knowledge is?)



So that is sometimes the case - there are sound changes and it can be affected by the letters around it.

It's also a dialect difference, the same word said in isolation can be pronounced in different ways. I meant to talk about it in my Korean lesson I just finished, but I completely forgot (we ended up chatting about European travel, the differences in Korean and UK companies and eating strange foods). I'll ask if I speak to my tutor again later.


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## Anarax (Oct 25, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> Never Walk By a Mistake | The Art of Manliness
> 
> To you it's simply, to me (who admittedly feels like he has undiagnosed OCD for mistakes) it's highly irritating.


No, it's how you come off. You expect people to know how to pronounce a martial art name perfectly even though students and instructors of that style mispronounce it. If you want to make a site go right ahead. However; understand how you come off when you want to use terms like "ruin". Do you know how many words you mispronounce? I'm sure algebra is one of them, but if I heard you mispronounce it I wouldn't say stop ruining it. How you come off plays a huge factor in how receptive people will be of you.


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## TrueJim (Oct 25, 2017)

I think the choice of the word "ruin" was intended to be tongue-in-cheek. 

Here's MY pet peeve for taekwondo pronunciation: tournaments. It's already loud and difficult to hear in tournaments, but when you're directed: "Chairt! Kunnee! Juhnbeye! Seizure!" it's really easy to miss the referee's direction.


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2017)

It's PORSH.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

Anarax said:


> No, it's how you come off. You expect people to know how to pronounce a martial art name perfectly even though students and instructors of that style mispronounce it.



And that's who I'm hoping to help educate. It's not expecting people to know, it's telling people so that they do know. I've had an overwhelmingly positive response to the one-page site since it's launch - literally you're the only nay-sayer, and that includes people that say they've been mispronouncing it for decades. Most of them just didn't know and don't have much exposure to Koreans to learn how to pronounce the art that they named.



Anarax said:


> If you want to make a site go right ahead.



Thanks for the permission ;-)



Anarax said:


> However; understand how you come off when you want to use terms like "ruin".



Can you pronounce hyperbole? ;-)



Anarax said:


> Do you know how many words you mispronounce? I'm sure algebra is one of them, but if I heard you mispronounce it I wouldn't say stop ruining it. How you come off plays a huge factor in how receptive people will be of you.



If you heard me mispronounce a word, you would cause me to

a)research it (I wouldn't accept just your word for it, and that's why I included four videos at the end)
b)thank you
c)change my pronunciation for the future.

In that order.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

And yes, I realise that last post may come across as pretentious, intentionally so.


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> And yes, I realise that last post may come across as pretentious, intentionally so.


Oh geez.  You're so pretentious.  Particularly your British spelling of realize.


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> Having got fed up with people mispronouncing Taekwondo, I put this site live this morning. Feel free to use it to point people to when they ruin the name of our beloved art and sport:
> 
> How do you say Taekwondo?


i


I've just consulted the Cambridge English dictionary, which has an audio for how to pronounce words, and it says you are WRONG,
tae kwon do Pronunciation in English


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## Anarax (Oct 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> i
> 
> 
> I've just consulted the Cambridge English dictionary, which has an audio for how to pronounce words, and it says you are WRONG,
> tae kwon do Pronunciation in English


Stop ruining it, it's driving me crazy!!! LOL


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

According to the announcer/MC at the Taekwondo Grand Prix last weekend, the BBC also officially pronounces it broken. He tried to educate them, but they told him to say it the broken way. I've asked him to get me the details of someone in that department to try to help them. If anyone has a contact at the Cambridge English Dictionary, I'm happy to chase them too.


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> According to the announcer/MC at the Taekwondo Grand Prix last weekend, the BBC also officially pronounces it broken. He tried to educate them, but they told him to say it the broken way. I've asked him to get me the details of someone in that department to try to help them. If anyone has a contact at the Cambridge English Dictionary, I'm happy to chase them too.


you are rather missing the point, once a word has become integrated into English and put in the English dictionary  , that IS the,correct way to pronounce it in ENGLISH,.

you might as well go round telling people that they are miss pronouncing window, which as I'm sure you know was originally   wind hole. A substantial part of English is miss pronounced words from around the world, where exactly would you stop,?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> you are rather missing the point, once a word has become integrated into English and put in the English dictionary  , that IS the,correct way to pronounce it in ENGLISH,.
> 
> you might as well go round telling people that they are miss pronouncing window, which should as I'm sure you know be wind hole. A substantial part of English is miss pronounced words from around the world, where exactly would you stop,


The dictionary, contrary to common belief, is not an arbiter of correctness, but a record of usage. When a pronunciation becomes common enough, it becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. That doesn't make it right or wrong, though.


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The dictionary, contrary to common belief, is not an arbiter of correctness, but a record of usage. When a pronunciation becomes common enough, it becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. That doesn't make it right or wrong, though.


yes it is, other wise wee  cud speeel end prunounse verds  ani Wey wee  fought beast, then were wuod wi bea?


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2017)

Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The dictionary, contrary to common belief, is not an arbiter of correctness, but a record of usage. When a pronunciation becomes common enough, it becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. That doesn't make it right or wrong, though.



Indeed and enough common words have changed their pronunciation to reflect the current pronunciation of the word. 15 Words Whose Pronunciation Has Changed Over Time - Vocabulary List : Vocabulary.com

So, if we can have enough people start to pronounce the word correctly (as the founder/pioneers wanted it to be pronounced), then the dictionary will eventually be updated to reflect that.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> i
> 
> 
> I've just consulted the Cambridge English dictionary, which has an audio for how to pronounce words, and it says you are WRONG,
> tae kwon do Pronunciation in English



So you consult an English language dictionary to learn how to pronounce a Korean word?
Even with native born Korean speakers have already confirmed how it's pronounced?
Yeah. That makes sense.


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2017)

Language is a funny thing.  This subject has come up before.  So, the TL;DR version is that I agree with Jobo, in that I understand how confusing this can be.  Largely, convention is much more of a factor than the "correct" pronunciation in the root language.

Borrowing from my own words posted a few years back, etymology is an interesting field of study, and English is a complex language with many influences. When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, he brought a strong French influence into our language. Many English words have a French root, and while one could say that they were "borrowed," that in no way means that the word now is the same as the French word. In some cases, the English word no longer means precisely what the French word did (or does.) He and his court are largely responsible for bringing us from Middle English into the English that more closely resembles the language we all speak today.

For example, there are many words we use every day in English. The words are English words and have English meanings, even though these words came from old King William and those pesky Normans. Cinema is a common English word, taken from the French word cinematographe, which was a term taken from ancient Greek (kinema). 

Or what about the term, "a la mode?" In English, the derivative does not mean the same thing as in French. In America, specifically, "a la mode" refers to adding scoop of ice cream to a piece of pie. 

"Amateur" is another English word with roots in French. In the French language, it's a much more general term for someone who loves an activity or does it "for the love of" it. In American English, the term is much more specific and used as the synonym for a professional. It typically refers to someone who is not paid, but can also refer to someone who isn't very good at the activity. The word is an English word. It's pronounced differently than it would be in French, and it has a distinct definition that is not the same as its root.

Sushi is another American word borrowed from the Japanese, but I would suggest that American Sushi is NOT what you would typically find in Japan. In America, the term "sushi" refers to a uniquely American experience that overlaps with the Japanese experience in some ways. One is not better than or worse than the other. But they are different, and in America, if you went to a sushi restaurant expecting a very Japanese experience, you would be disappointed in the same way you would be expecting actual Chinese food in a Chinese restaurant.  My kids went to an "authentic" noodle restaurant and coined the term "harbor mouth" from the fish breath they had afterward. 

So, in this way, sushi said in America is an American word used to describe an Americanized dining experience. 

Also, if anything, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the subset of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. While it's true that Oswaldo Fadda lineage is alive and well, all but a very, very few Jiu Jitsu black belts trace their lineage in some way back through the Gracies. In modern usage, most people use the term Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to indicate that they are not directly affiliated with the Gracie family. However, BJJ... particularly in America, stems from GJJ and not the other way around. 

Finally, have you guys ever see this famous painting by Rene Magritte? It's called the Treachery of Images. The caption, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe," is an integral part of the piece. Translated, it means, "This is not a pipe."  







This painting came to mind as we discuss symbols. One might say that it is clearly a pipe, but it's not. It's a picture, a painting. And, really, this is even more removed. It's a digital copy of a painting of a pipe. But it's still not a pipe. In the same way, Jiu Jitsu might seem to be a Japanese word, but it's not. Heck, jujutsu isn't even a Japanese word, nor is this:






These are symbols that *stand for *words which mean something in the language in which they are spoken. In Brazil, if you say jiu jitsu, it doesn't mean something Japanese. It means something Brazilian. And the spoken word is itself a symbol for the thing to which it refers.


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you consult an English language dictionary to learn how to pronounce a Korean word?
> Even with native born Korean speakers have already confirmed how it's pronounced?
> Yeah. That makes sense.


but once its in the,English dictionary it is by defintion an English word of Korean origin, to join the English words of many other origins, such is the dominance of English, the French and germans  are now using the English version of French and German words, give it enough time the Koreans will start getting it right


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes it is, other wise wee  cud speeel end prunounse verds  ani Wey wee  fought beast, then were wuod wi bea?


Nope. It's a record of how things ARE pronounced and spelled. Not a guide to how they "should be" pronounced and spelled. If something is "mispronounced" more often than not, the "mispronunciation" becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. Whether that makes it "right" or not depends how we define "right".


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Nope. It's a record of how things ARE pronounced and spelled. Not a guide to how they "should be" pronounced and spelled. If something is "mispronounced" more often than not, the "mispronunciation" becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. Whether that makes it "right" or not depends how we define "right".


That’s a conundrum, isn’t it?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

Steve said:


> Language is a funny thing.  This subject has come up before.  So, the TL;DR version is that I agree with Jobo, in that I understand how confusing this can be.  Largely, convention is much more of a factor than the "correct" pronunciation in the root language.
> 
> Borrowing from my own words posted a few years back, etymology is an interesting field of study, and English is a complex language with many influences. When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, he brought a strong French influence into our language. Many English words have a French root, and while one could say that they were "borrowed," that in no way means that the word now is the same as the French word. In some cases, the English word no longer means precisely what the French word did (or does.) He and his court are largely responsible for bringing us from Middle English into the English that more closely resembles the language we all speak today.
> 
> ...


The issue is mostly one of whether we're talking about an English word borrowed from Korean (a loan word), or a Korean word. At some point it ceases to be the latter and becomes the former. Until that time, the technically correct pronunciation is from the original language. After that point, the new host language has its own correct pronunciation.


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## Anarax (Oct 25, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> And yes, I realise that last post may come across as pretentious, intentionally so.


Trust me, your pretentiousness is not difficult to pick up on


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Trust me, your pretentiousness is not difficult to pick up on


I don’t know, man.   I’ve never had the impression he’s pretentious.  Well, no more than any other Brit.   Seriously, I didn’t read this as pretentious at all.   Just a pet peeve being addressed.


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## Anarax (Oct 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The issue is mostly one of whether we're talking about an English word borrowed from Korean (a loan word), or a Korean word. At some point it ceases to be the latter and becomes the former. Until that time, the technically correct pronunciation is from the original language. After that point, the new host language has its own correct pronunciation.



I do agree with you to a certain extent. Considering how many Tae-Kwon-Do(Yes I am pronouncing it the "incorrect" way when I type it) schools are in the US and how big it's grown, I think it doesn't matter a whole lot. I think pronouncing it the way he's saying to English speakers would just create confusion. I used the Karate example in an earlier post, at some point it's so ingrained in our culture we pronounce it our own way. If I were to pronounce it Kara-Te most people wouldn't know what I'm talking about and I would have to explain it to someone who most likely doesn't care. Decimate was technically used "incorrectly" for the longest time, until it's definition was changed to be the "incorrect" meaning. I'm going to correct my friends the next time we go to Karaoke and say "guys it's pronounced kara-oke, because in Japanese Kara means empty and oke means orchestra". After that I will never have to worry about correcting them ever again, because I will never be invited to go out with them again.


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## Steve (Oct 25, 2017)

This thread reminds me of the old “inconsiderate cellphone man” video shown at movie theaters. 

The specific line is at :17 seconds.   “It’s pronounced karatay.”


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## Buka (Oct 26, 2017)

I have a heavy Boston accent, which, over the years, has been slightly accentuated with pidgen - more with it's cadence than it's details. I pronounce every God damn thing wrong, at least according to some. Yet, everyone I speak to somehow understands what I'm saying. Some of the folks who taught me Tae-kwon-do had heavy accents from various parts of the country/world, both in English and in Korean. 
Yet, I understood. I think so, anyway.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

What I find interesting is how strongly some folks reacted to this, which the OP presented in a fairly straightforward and unobtrusive manner. I pronounce most Asian martial arts terms closer to their original language than most folks I know (though I’m sure Taekwondo isn’t the only one I’ve been getting wrong). And people who know the terms never seem to have trouble following me. Nor I them. I tend to agree with the OP’s intent of encouraging the original pronunciation, but rarely find it useful to correct an individual, unless it is one of my students.


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## jobo (Oct 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Nope. It's a record of how things ARE pronounced and spelled. Not a guide to how they "should be" pronounced and spelled. If something is "mispronounced" more often than not, the "mispronunciation" becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. Whether that makes it "right" or not depends how we define "right".


but its the only guide to how things are spelled and pronounced , if you don't use it as a,guide then there is no way to spell anything, i accept that its democratic, in that it takes the common spelling use and sound and records it,  but once its there it is the guide for every one. On how that word should be used.

i find it amusing hat someone who never fails to argue the defintion of a word being discussed, should take the view that defintions are advisory and you can use any defintion  you like.

Il remind you of that next time you tell me my defintion is incorrect


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> but its the only guide to how things are spelled and pronounced , if you don't use it as a,guide then there is no way to spell anything, i accept that its democratic, in that it takes the common spelling use and sound and records it,  but once its there it is the guide for every one. On how that word should be used.
> 
> ...
> 
> Il remind you of that next time you tell me my definition is incorrect


You still have it backward. The dictionary is how we can reference the most common usages, pronunciations, and spellings. When we decide someone is misusing, mispronouncing or misspelling, what we really mean is they are not spelling it or using it like is commonly done. The issue with using a dictionary for a loanword is that there is a different pronunciation in a different dictionary. You've seen (and been in) enough discussions here over the variances in usage - the nuances between different definitions people use - to know that we cannot depend upon a dictionary as a definitive source all the time. I've even had people argue that the first usage in a given dictionary is "more correct", which is not what the dictionary is intending by the order - it's just more common. If a definition falls out of common usage, it is often marked "archaic". It's not incorrect a that point - just less likely to be recognized by others (even native speakers).



> i find it amusing hat someone who never fails to argue the definition of a word being discussed, should take the view that definitions are advisory and you can use any definition  you like.


I find it amusing that you don't recognize that my most common dispute of this type is when someone insists their personal definition (perhaps even the first or only one cited in a given dictionary) is the only right one.


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## jobo (Oct 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You still have it backward. The dictionary is how we can reference the most common usages, pronunciations, and spellings. When we decide someone is misusing, mispronouncing or misspelling, what we really mean is they are not spelling it or using it like is commonly done. The issue with using a dictionary for a loanword is that there is a different pronunciation in a different dictionary. You've seen (and been in) enough discussions here over the variances in usage - the nuances between different definitions people use - to know that we cannot depend upon a dictionary as a definitive source all the time. I've even had people argue that the first usage in a given dictionary is "more correct", which is not what the dictionary is intending by the order - it's just more common. If a definition falls out of common usage, it is often marked "archaic". It's not incorrect a that point - just less likely to be recognized by others (even native speakers).
> 
> 
> I find it amusing that you don't recognize that my most common dispute of this type is when someone insists their personal definition (perhaps even the first or only one cited in a given dictionary) is the only right one.


but under the rules that you have just made up, their personal definition is at least as valid as the one you go and find to prove them wrong,, you appear to want your cake and your half penny!


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> but under the rules that you have just made up, their personal definition is at least as valid as the one you go and find to prove them wrong,, you appear to want your cake and your half penny!


Actually, I'm not trying to prove their definition wrong, in that case (if I go get the dictionary definition). Just show them that there's at least one other commonly accepted definition (or possibly to show that their definition is not one of the commonly used ones).

So, nope.


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## jobo (Oct 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, I'm not trying to prove their definition wrong, in that case (if I go get the dictionary definition). Just show them that there's at least one other commonly accepted definition (or possibly to show that their definition is not one of the commonly used ones).
> 
> So, nope.


humbugs


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

jobo said:


> humbugs


So, showing a common usage exists is deceptive? Interesting thought process.


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## jobo (Oct 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So, showing a common usage exists is deceptive? Interesting thought process.


no it was you ignoring your over whelming desire to prove yourself correct, that is humbug, its more self deception that's your issue


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2017)

I find correct pronunciation of Korean terms is important if:

a) Korean terminology is used as the main name for techniques in class

And

b) You have contact with Koreans as part of your training

For instructors of both WTF competitors and KKW practitioners, these will both be true to some degree, and it lies within the instructor's remit to get it right IMO. 

For other organisations, they can continue to practise Tiegook Pil Chong without really doing any harm.

Jim, I know what you mean. Shirt. Kanye. C-shock.

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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2017)

On the other hand I have heard Koreans mispronounce German and English too, so...

"I like Chunitsel" (schnitzel)

and

"We visit the Poke Billiejean" (Folk Village)

For example. 

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## Steve (Oct 26, 2017)

Question.   What’s the difference between pronunciation and accent.   I mean, you foreigners talk funny.  Hell, most Americans talk funny, too.   I’m picturing @Buka butchering my language.  But when @Buka says “labsta” instead of lobster is that accent or mispronunciation?

I’m reminded of the scene from Goldmember.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

Steve said:


> Question.   What’s the difference between pronunciation and accent.   I mean, you foreigners talk funny.  Hell, most Americans talk funny, too.   I’m picturing @Buka butchering my language.  But when @Buka says “labsta” instead of lobster is that accent or mispronunciation?
> 
> I’m reminded of the scene from Goldmember.


That's a very tricky question, Steve. Where does "correct pronunciation with an accent" end and "bad pronunciation" begin? I'm certain there's not a hard line, and I'm pretty sure it's tough to find much consensus. In the Southern US, there's a range of accents I personally still consider "correct" pronunciation, and another range I consider "incorrect". Beyond those latter, it gets to the point of being a regional dialect. Why is the area between "correct" and "dialect", "incorrect"? I have no idea.


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## jobo (Oct 26, 2017)

Steve said:


> Question.   What’s the difference between pronunciation and accent.   I mean, you foreigners talk funny.  Hell, most Americans talk funny, too.   I’m picturing @Buka butchering my language.  But when @Buka says “labsta” instead of lobster is that accent or mispronunciation?
> 
> I’m reminded of the scene from Goldmember.


its a good point, there is a significant cross over, dependent on the letter sounds you learn as a child, i can't with out stopping my self and concentrating say bottle, it comes out botull, that's the local pronunciation, i have with practise learned to stop dropping letters and slow down my speach, whilst still keeping my  accent to some extent, but only for the reason that people in London couldn't understand me at all, when back in my home town in some rough pub, i revert to my original speech patterns, id get punch for being a posh boy other wise

. I worked for a short while in darkest Liverpool, just 40 miles away, i couldn't for months understand a word they said, my ear got attuned to it eventually, i could even understand brookside.

the purpose is to be able to communicate, if how you say it achieves that, then its pinikity to start insisting that people talk how YOU want, if i went to the Korean take away and started pointing out all there funny ways of speaking English, i would most likely be reported for racial harassment, that's much the same as a Korean speaker correcting how i say taekwondo . If they understand the words that should be enough, i shouldnt be expected to learn whole new sounds just to please them


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## Steve (Oct 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's a very tricky question, Steve. Where does "correct pronunciation with an accent" end and "bad pronunciation" begin? I'm certain there's not a hard line, and I'm pretty sure it's tough to find much consensus. In the Southern US, there's a range of accents I personally still consider "correct" pronunciation, and another range I consider "incorrect". Beyond those latter, it gets to the point of being a regional dialect. Why is the area between "correct" and "dialect", "incorrect"? I have no idea.


You know I love you, man, but I think you just took us in a circle.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

Steve said:


> You know I love you, man, but I think you just took us in a circle.


Yeah, that's was kinda my point. There's right and wrong pronunciation, and not much of universal agreement on what the hell those things mean.


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## Anarax (Oct 26, 2017)

The purpose of language is to communicate. When two people are communicating and both know exactly what the other person is saying and means then that's successful communication. I can approach it one of two ways. 1) I can have seamless communication with someone and pronounce the words we both know and understand, or 2) be a stickler and "correct" every Latin, Greek, German and Arabic rooted word they use and tell them they are pronouncing them "incorrectly".


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2017)

Anarax said:


> The purpose of language is to communicate.



Agreed. The problem arises when a native speaker of the language no longer understands what is being said. The limit of intelligibility has then been reached.

This happens with quite small modifications to sounds in Korean, especially vowels. Take the name of the colour belt form set, Taegeuk. If the eu vowel ㅡ is mispronounced as u ㅜ, which frequently happens in Europe and the US, you no longer have the meaning "great infinite", you have "Thailand". That's quite the difference.

Applying that same principle to 8 out of 10 Taekwondo terms used in a typical dojang, and it can be quite difficult for Koreans to understand what the heck we are talking about.

I've yet to meet a non-Korean Taekwondoin who can actually pronounce even the numbers one to ten correctly so that they are intelligible to a Korean native speaker. 

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## Anarax (Oct 26, 2017)

Gnarlie said:


> Agreed. The problem arises when a native speaker of the language no longer understands what is being said. The limit of intelligibility has then been reached.
> 
> This happens with quite small modifications to sounds in Korean, especially vowels. Take the name of the colour belt form set, Taegeuk. If the eu vowel ㅡ is mispronounced as u ㅜ, which frequently happens in Europe and the US, you no longer have the meaning "great infinite", you have "Thailand". That's quite the difference.
> 
> ...



Let me add some context to what I said. Obviously it would be an English speaker not a native Korean speaker that would be pronouncing the Korean words "incorrectly". Meaning an English speaking Tae Kwon Do student isn't going to converse with someone in fluent Korean if they can't speak Korean. If the native English speaking student knows fluent Korean then they will already know they are pronouncing the terms "incorrectly". If you have two English speakers, for example two tae kwon do students, who are pronouncing a term "incorrectly" to each other, yet they both know what the other is saying then does it matter?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 26, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Let me add some context to what I said. Obviously it would be an English speaker not a native Korean speaker that would be pronouncing the Korean words "incorrectly". Meaning an English speaking Tae Kwon Do student isn't going to converse with someone in fluent Korean if they can't speak Korean. If the native English speaking student knows fluent Korean then they will already know they are pronouncing the terms "incorrectly". If you have two English speakers, for example two tae kwon do students, who are pronouncing a term "incorrectly" to each other, yet they both know what the other is saying then does it matter?



Yes, it does. If you're not going to try to pronounce the Korean words correctly, just use the English words instead.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Let me add some context to what I said. Obviously it would be an English speaker not a native Korean speaker that would be pronouncing the Korean words "incorrectly". Meaning an English speaking Tae Kwon Do student isn't going to converse with someone in fluent Korean if they can't speak Korean. If the native English speaking student knows fluent Korean then they will already know they are pronouncing the terms "incorrectly". If you have two English speakers, for example two tae kwon do students, who are pronouncing a term "incorrectly" to each other, yet they both know what the other is saying then does it matter?


At their first contact with a Korean trainer, then yes, it will matter. Not teaching students the correct pronunciation of Korean terminology is doing them a disservice if they later decide to take their training more seriously and travel to Korea.

In the age of the Internet it's not exactly difficult to find out how the words should sound. Making the sounds correctly and being able to differentiate between what to us are similar sounds is more difficult.

I guess it just depends on a person's own appetite for foreign languages and 'correctness'. 

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## Anarax (Oct 26, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes, it does. If you're not going to try to pronounce the Korean words correctly, just use the English words instead.



I disagree. That means that everyone should say "empty hand" oppose to pronouncing it karate and create confusion? The most difficult thing in all of this is where to you draw the line? It means pronounce everything with the original pronunciation or pronounce it where people will understand what you mean. I had a native Korean tae kwon do teacher when I was a kid, he taught us to pronounce it the "incorrect" way. If a 6th degree black belt native of Korea teaches it like that, I don't see a problem with it. He obviously didn't see it as ruining anything nor disrespectful to pronounce it that way.


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## Anarax (Oct 26, 2017)

Gnarlie said:


> At their first contact with a Korean trainer, then yes, it will matter. Not teaching students the correct pronunciation of Korean terminology is doing them a disservice if they later decide to take their training more seriously and travel to Korea.



If they travel to Korea wouldn't they want to learn more than a few TKD terms before going there? If an non native English speaker traveled to an American boxing gym and pronounced rope a dope "incorrectly" I doubt people would think he lacked commitment or was less of a student. Even with "incorrect" pronunciation I'm sure a Korean teacher will know what you mean. I had a native Korean tae kwon do teacher when I was a kid, he taught us to pronounce it the "incorrect" way. If a 6th degree black belt native of Korea teaches it like that, I don't see a problem with it. He obviously didn't see it as ruining anything nor disrespectful to pronounce it that way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes, it does. If you're not going to try to pronounce the Korean words correctly, just use the English words instead.


This is my personal approach. I'm not sure it's universal, though, DD. I think a lot of folks are quite comfortable with the Korean (or Japanese, or Chinese, etc.) terms, however they are pronounced, so long as everyone in the room understands them.


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## Anarax (Oct 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is my personal approach. I'm not sure it's universal, though, DD. I think a lot of folks are quite comfortable with the Korean (or Japanese, or Chinese, etc.) terms, however they are pronounced, so long as everyone in the room understands them.



I try to pronounce the terms as close as an American can . I'm not against the "correct" pronunciation, but I am against when someone criticizes others because they feel they are ruining something or being disrespectful by not pronouncing it perfectly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I try to pronounce the terms as close as an American can . I'm not against the "correct" pronunciation, but I am against when someone criticizes others because they feel they are ruining something or being disrespectful by not pronouncing it perfectly.


You seem very tied up in this being an overbearing thing. The whole tone of the site the OP put up is fairly light and respectful. He used the word "ruin" once, in what I interpreted as a half-tongue-in-cheek way. You've posted over and over about that use of the word and what you perceive as his arrogance and disrespect. It's not nearly that bad, man.


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## Steve (Oct 26, 2017)

Is this discussion making us smarter or dumber? just taking a quick pulse check here.


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## Anarax (Oct 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You seem very tied up in this being an overbearing thing. The whole tone of the site the OP put up is fairly light and respectful. He used the word "ruin" once, in what I interpreted as a half-tongue-in-cheek way. You've posted over and over about that use of the word and what you perceive as his arrogance and disrespect. It's not nearly that bad, man.



I was making counter-arguments to the overall concept of mispronunciation, not only his post. Some people I have trained with thought that it was disrespectful to mispronounce terms, I stated why I disagreed with the overall concept of it. I don't think he's been disrespectful nor has he called anyone disrespectful. He more so sounds annoyed by it.


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## Martial D (Oct 26, 2017)

So you pronounce taekwondo like AM-air-a-doe-tay?

Thanks for the lesson, I've been doing it wrong!


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 26, 2017)

Steve said:


> Is this discussion making us smarter or dumber? just taking a quick pulse check here.


Of that, I'm not certain, Steve. Parts of it are intellectually engaging. Other parts, not so much.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 27, 2017)

Anarax said:


> If they travel to Korea wouldn't they want to learn more than a few TKD terms before going there?


Not necessarily, and that's the point of using Korean terminology in the first place - it allows Taekwondoin to at least train together even if the don't fully speak each other's languages. They have a basic shared vocabulary in Korean. 


Anarax said:


> If an non native English speaker traveled to an American boxing gym and pronounced rope a dope "incorrectly" I doubt people would think he lacked commitment or was less of a student.


Not the same - there is much more bandwidth in English before intelligibility is lost. 


Anarax said:


> Even with "incorrect" pronunciation I'm sure a Korean teacher will know what you mean.


How sure are you? My Korean pronunciation is relatively good, and I have spent a lot of time on it. My Korean friends don't always understand what I mean. Sometimes they correct my pronunciation in a way where I can't even hear a difference. That's the problem. 


Anarax said:


> I had a native Korean tae kwon do teacher when I was a kid, he taught us to pronounce it the "incorrect" way. If a 6th degree black belt native of Korea teaches it like that, I don't see a problem with it. He obviously didn't see it as ruining anything nor disrespectful to pronounce it that way.



I doubt very much that a native Korean used incorrect pronunciation deliberately. More likely is that the students in his class were not able to hear the difference and he never corrected it. 


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2017)

Gnarlie said:


> Not the same - there is much more bandwidth in English before intelligibility is lost.


Out of purely intellectual curiosity, can you expound on this?



> How sure are you? My Korean pronunciation is relatively good, and I have spent a lot of time on it. My Korean friends don't always understand what I mean. Sometimes they correct my pronunciation in a way where I can't even hear a difference. That's the problem.


How old were you when you started working on it? There's some evidence that we stop being able to learn to hear/distinguish new phonemes (parts of words) after our late teens. I have this problem when my wife tries to teach me Russian sounds. There's one that sounds to me very much like the sound in the French word for "eye" (<<oeil>>), but she insists that sound isn't all that close. This is why people can come to the US in their 30's, and 40 years later still have a heavy accent in their English.


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## TrueJim (Oct 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Out of purely intellectual curiosity, can you expound on this?



(Stealing liberally from Wikipedia here...)

I suspect that Gnarlie's referring to the fact that there's a lot of redundancy in English, on multiple levels. Here's one example:

That man is a soldier. 
Those men are soldiers.
In the second sentence, *plurality* is indicated in three different ways: (1) men/men (2) is/are (3) soldier/soldiers. A less redundant language would express the second sentence as something like "That man is soldiers" and still be grammatically correct. This means you can make multiple mistakes in English and still be understood. The redundancy in English is so extreme that you can even words out and people still understand what you mean. Do people realize that even punctuation marks are a form of redundancy. And dno't get me setratd on our atiliby to raed selbmarcd secnetnes. 

Also, at the level of phonemes, English phonemes always differ in _multiple_ _ways_, so that even if you get one or two ways "wrong" the other differences in the phonemes are still enough of an indicator for a listener to distinguish the phonemes. For example the way the sounds /p/ and /b/ are pronounced in English use different voicing, aspiration, and muscular tension. The corresponding sounds in other languages might differ only in voicing, for example, or only in aspiration, making precise pronunciation more crucial. 



gpseymour said:


> There's some evidence that we stop being able to learn to hear/distinguish new phonemes (parts of words) after our late teens.



When I took anthropology class in college, we were taught that humans can't learn new vowel sounds past about 8 months of age. There's a famous experiment where a woman gave infants treats when she pronounced the sound "oh" rather than the sound "oh" (the two vowels sound the same to you and me). Before month 9 infants were able to learn to distinguish the two "oh" sounds -- but after month 9 they couldn't. (The woman was an Inuit; the Inuit apparently have subtle shades of "oh" sounds.)


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> (Stealing liberally from Wikipedia here...)
> 
> I suspect that Gnarlie's referring to the fact that there's a lot of redundancy in English, on multiple levels. Here's one example:
> 
> ...


Yeah, many languages lack articles - it's something I've never managed to understand in Russian. And don't get me started on their foolishly loose approach to the past tense! Oh, and you missed the that/those cue. 



> And dno't get me setratd on our atiliby to raed selbmarcd secnetnes.


Especially when the start and and letters are correct - an interesting effect I've not heard a great explanation for yet.



> Also, at the level of phonemes, English phonemes always differ in _multiple_ _ways_, so that even if you get one or two ways "wrong" the other differences in the phonemes are still enough of an indicator for a listener to distinguish the phonemes. For example the way the sounds /p/ and /b/ are pronounced in English use different voicing, aspiration, and muscular tension. The corresponding sounds in other languages might differ only in voicing, for example, or only in aspiration, making precise pronunciation more crucial.


I hadn't thought of that.



> When I took anthropology class in college, we were taught that humans can't learn new vowel sounds past about 8 months of age. There's a famous experiment where a woman gave infants treats when she pronounced the sound "oh" rather than the sound "oh" (the two vowels sound the same to you and me). Before month 9 infants were able to learn to distinguish the two "oh" sounds -- but after month 9 they couldn't. (The woman was an Inuit; the Inuit apparently have subtle shades of "oh" sounds.)


That is apparently true of some sounds, though in general children in their early years can become essentially native speakers of a new language. The later into their teens they get, the less likely they are to develop native pronunciation. Perhaps it is more of an issue with vowel sounds than with consonants, because in most languages there's a bit of "give" in how vowel sounds are heard as "right" (more variability between similar dialects). The consonants seem to be the hard part. Learning the French "r" and "ble" sounds seem particularly hard for American adults to pick up, but kids (and even teens) seem to do okay. And of course there's the common issue for some Asians learning English with the "l" and "r" sounds.


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## Buka (Oct 27, 2017)

Working with the public on a daily basis gives some interesting observations. Especially concerning language. Certain words aren't used any more, apparently becoming passée. While newer terms have become accepted because of everyday usage.

What I've noticed, and it's about as subtle as a baseball bat, is parents no longer use the word "no" with their children. And, from what I've seen over the last year, it isn't limited to any one country or ethnic background.

But it's probably okay. What could possibly go wrong?


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## andyjeffries (Oct 30, 2017)

Gnarlie said:


> This happens with quite small modifications to sounds in Korean, especially vowels. Take the name of the colour belt form set, Taegeuk. If the eu vowel ㅡ is mispronounced as u ㅜ, which frequently happens in Europe and the US, you no longer have the meaning "great infinite", you have "Thailand". That's quite the difference.



My favourite is people mispronouncing Taebaek as more like Daebak (slightly harder start and not identical vowel sounds). That changes the meaning from the name of a South Korean mountain to the slang for "awesome!".



Gnarlie said:


> I've yet to meet a non-Korean Taekwondoin who can actually pronounce even the numbers one to ten correctly so that they are intelligible to a Korean native speaker.



I look forward to meeting you one day ;-) Seriously though, as I've been learning Korean for 3 years I'd hope to be able to achieve at least that :-D


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## andyjeffries (Oct 30, 2017)

Gnarlie said:


> Not necessarily, and that's the point of using Korean terminology in the first place - it allows Taekwondoin to at least train together even if the don't fully speak each other's languages. They have a basic shared vocabulary in Korean.



I actually wish it was that simple. A lot of movements have either changed name over the years, so often people can use Korean and still not know what the movement is.

For example, when I did the Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner course in 2015 the examiners told us that Arae Makki is now called Naeryo makki and we should change to the new standardised terminology (which Kukkiwon has a published document on). There were a few other changes, but because it is such a core movement that was the one that everyone was most shocked about.

Now I always use the new term, but if people come from another school, they often don't know the new term.

I had a few Korean friends come to stay with me in July for a couple of weeks and we had to resort to physical demonstrations to understand the terminology for a tornado kick (spin roundhouse kick). We use the older term Narabang (나라방) and the current Kukkiwon standard term Dolgae Chagi (돌개 차기), but in Korea it's commonly called "Turn" Chagi (턴 차기) - they do like their English loan words!

But I agree, there are plenty of times I've been teaching people from other countries and having the Korean terminology (particularly an understanding of the words behind it) really helped in communicating without a shared language.



Gnarlie said:


> How sure are you? My Korean pronunciation is relatively good, and I have spent a lot of time on it. My Korean friends don't always understand what I mean. Sometimes they correct my pronunciation in a way where I can't even hear a difference. That's the problem.



Hahahaha, amen brother! I can pronounce the difference between ㅂ, ㅍ & ㅃ (b, p and bb) but often when Korean people talk to me I can't quite detect the difference easily and have to resort to understanding the context to help me. In a sentence 팔 (arm) and 발 (foot) are almost indistinguishable to my ear!


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## Archtkd (Oct 30, 2017)

andyjeffries said:


> According to the announcer/MC at the Taekwondo Grand Prix last weekend, the BBC also officially pronounces it broken. He tried to educate them, but they told him to say it the broken way. I've asked him to get me the details of someone in that department to try to help them. If anyone has a contact at the Cambridge English Dictionary, I'm happy to chase them too.


Andyjeffries: you may be fighting a losing battle, akin to the one over Iraq. Many American who have been to Irag, fought there, lost limb helping "liberate" the place and others who have politicized every aspect of the conflict for their own gain, continue to mispronounce Iraq's. It sometimes sounds as if it's done intentionally, as if to tell  Iraqis we will call you whatever what we want to call you because you are inconsequential  people whose culture or heritage we shouldn't care about.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2017)

Archtkd said:


> Andyjeffries: you may be fighting a losing battle, akin to the one over Iraq. Many American who have been to Irag, fought there, lost limb helping "liberate" the place and others who have politicized every aspect of the conflict for their own gain, continue to mispronounce Iraq's. It sometimes sounds as if it's done intentionally, as if to tell  Iraqis we will call you whatever what we want to call you because you are inconsequential  people whose culture or heritage we shouldn't care about.


Most countries don't use the proper current pronunciation of other places. When I was in Lisbon a few years ago, I learned that "Lisbon" isn't particularly close to the way it is pronounced in Continental Portuguese, and France uses a very similar name. Our names for many other places in Portugal turn out to be significantly off. The same is true for the English names for many things in France, and so on.


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