# Weapons and proper instruction - WHY?



## Flying Crane (Apr 24, 2008)

I just got inspired to start a thread to discuss the reasoning behind needing proper instruction particularly when it comes to learning weaponry.

We often see posters here in MT, people with assumed good intentions who want to learn a particular weapon, and are asking for web sites or instructional videos, or books, or advice to help them get started.  Whenever I see those posts, I inevitably make the suggestion: GET A GOOD TEACHER!  That is, unless someone else has already beaten me to that punch.

Why is it so important to get a good teacher?  Let's look at a sword, for example.  It could be any sword: katana, dao, southern dao, jian, Scottish claymore, German Longsword, whatever.  It's long, has a sharp point, and a sharp edge, with a handle on the end.  Kind of intuitive: pick it up by the handle and stick the bad guy with the pointy end.  Or swing it in an arc to cut him with the edge.  How hard can that be?  Why do I need a good teacher?

How about some of the more exotic weapons, like sai, nunchaku, tonfa, three-section staff, gwan dao, nine-section whip, rope dart, meteor hammer, etc.  Once again, you could probably pick these up and be hazardous to your enemy, but some of these weapons are so strange, it can be hard to even imagine how to use them.  

The most obvious reason to seek out instruction is so that you can train under an experienced eye.  Your instructor will correct your technique to make it as strong as possible.  This is not the same as simply being "hazardous" with the weapon.  You can instead, be deliberately and precisely deadly.  But you need that instructor to make corrections as you progress.  Without his guidance, your technique will not develop and grow, because you will not be able to identify the mistakes you are making.

Your instructor will also make sure you are practicing in a way that is safe, and minimizes the chance of doing injury to yourself while training.  While a wild swing with the nunchaku might leave you seeing stars, a careless mishap with a sharp sword could leave you or your training partner, or your spouse, or your dog or your cat, bleeding to death.  Sometimes a beginner doesn't grasp just how dangerous these weapons can be, even accidentally.

The other big reason is that you need guidance to even understand the capabilities of these weapons.  The versatility of a sword or a spear can be a mystery to a beginner.  When dealing with the more exotic weapons listed above, you just have no idea how to even use it.  So maybe you can pick these up, open a book and figure out a few things.  But you will never understand the weapon's full potential, and that is why you need an instructor.  Without a good instructor, your understanding of the weapon will simply remain stunted.  The way some of these weapons are used is simply not intuitive, and you will probably give up in frustration or boredom in short order.

Some people want to adapt a weapon onto a foundation for which it was never designed.  Maybe they've had some training with the dao, and they think a katana should be used the same way.  Or that some skill with the nunchaku will translate well for the three-sectional staff.  Or they can take a flashy XMA performance/gymnastic kata and work up some flash with a featherweight bo staff, and that shows skill.  Well I've got news for ya folks, these notions are all mistakes.  A katana does not work like a dao (altho Jeff Falcon made it work pretty well in _Six String Samurai_, but that's a different story).  The Three-sectional staff is not just a nunchaku with one more segment.  And a flashy nonsense kata with a weapon in your hand is not skill with a weapon.  

Each weapon has a body of techniques designed for its optimal use.  Best to stick with that, if you really want to understand the weapon.  Otherwise, you are either fooling yourself, or you are just playing games.

So get a good teacher.  If that is not possible, then my advice is to do something else.  Learn from whomever is available to teach you.  Don't try to force something when proper instruction is not available.

That's the end of my monologue.  Comments and additions are welcome, of course.


----------



## tellner (Apr 24, 2008)

If you're planning on using one for self defense then for the love of Cthulhu find a teacher who knows a little bit about the legal aspects of deadly force in self defense. The stupidity I've heard from martial arts teachers on the subject beggars description.

As G-d is my witness I met a teacher who demands that his black belts toddle down to the police station to register their hands as deadly weapons. There must be prosecutors and personal injury lawyers who wake up with enormous erections when they hear about him


----------



## Empty Hands (Apr 24, 2008)

"Meteor hammer"?  Sounds like a weapon from Final Fantasy!


----------



## Flying Crane (Apr 24, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> "Meteor hammer"? Sounds like a weapon from Final Fantasy!


 
heh heh.  it's actually kind of like the big brother of the rope dart.  It's a heavier weapon than the rope dart, like a brass weight maybe the size of a golf ball or a bit bigger, on a ten or twelve foot rope.  From the little I have seen of it, it's technique is similar to the rope dart.

In Jackie Chan's _Shanghai Noon_, he improvised by tying a horseshoe to a rope, and then kicked the snot out of a couple of cowboys.

It's kind of crazy if you've never seen the technique before.  You don't just swing it around and try to smack things.  You swing it in a way and sort of bounce the rope off your toe or elbow or knee or around the neck or the body, and use that to direct the weapon so it shoots out in a straight line.  definitely not something you could pick up without some kind of instruction.


----------



## Flying Crane (Apr 24, 2008)

meteor hammer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hOL8juiy1w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZMM0ESgXrA&feature=related


----------



## harlan (Apr 24, 2008)

Yep. A good teacher makes all the difference. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ItAm-vIGg&feature=related


----------



## tellner (Apr 24, 2008)

In other words, a Chinese slungshot.


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 24, 2008)

tellner said:


> If you're planning on using one for self defense then for the love of Cthulhu find a teacher who knows a little bit about the legal aspects of deadly force in self defense. The stupidity I've heard from martial arts teachers on the subject beggars description.
> 
> As G-d is my witness I met a teacher who demands that his black belts toddle down to the police station to register their hands as deadly weapons. There must be prosecutors and personal injury lawyers who wake up with enormous erections when they hear about him


And cops who get awful tired of these morons traipsing in...

I'm not aware of ANY state or city that requires or makes any sort of registry of martial artists's hands.  ANYBODY's hands can kill...

I'll tell you -- the first time I had someone show up like that in the station would also be the last.  Because I'd go down, and explain the error of that teacher's thinking to him.  Probably in front of a class.  We get stuck with enough stupidity... that's some I can stop.


----------



## tellner (Apr 25, 2008)

JKS, I would really appreciate it if you did. Many, many times.


----------



## Grenadier (Apr 25, 2008)

It's not just bladed weapons, or "high risk" weapons such as the three section staff...  It can also be applied to simpler, common weapons.  

I've seen some self-trained folks swinging around ordinary rokushaku (6' long bo), using just their arms, thinking that they're making very powerful swings.  Yet, at the same time, their awful mechanics are taking quite a toll on their bodies.  

I've lost count of the number of "self-trained" bo users, who end up with sore elbows, because of the wear and tear they put on the with their set of techniques that were mechanically unsound.  

In the end, a good teacher can quickly point out how to use good mechanics, and develop someone in a healthy, sound manner.  If someone wants to branch off on his own after he's had a good set of fundamentals, then hey, I'm not entirely against that.


----------



## Imua Kuntao (Apr 28, 2008)

As a teacher I can use various weapons to takedown and throw an opponent, whether or not I would do such a thing in reality is a different story. In public here in Texas it is illeagal to carry a tonfa, nunchacku, stick (club), and other items. I have seen beginners cut themselves while practicing on thier own, or have had people from other teachers come to me and ask why did a certian thing happen, why did I hit myself on the head with this? Little problems that many students dont think of may happen, even if the student feels they are learning from experience they could be falling into bad habbits. With a good teacher a student can advance in trainning without the unneccessary smack on the head or without that nasty cut on the hand, plus maybe learn how to restrain or throw the opponent. Here in San Antonio, there was a man who goes to another instrctor who was a competitor many years ago and this instructor had no formal trainning, his student went to a tournemnt here and tried to do a kata with a pair of kama and ended up going to the hospitol because he almost split his right foot down the middle between his toes toward his ankle, with said kama. I know as a teacher you do not use kicks when your weapon is going forward. Every weapon has its little do's and dont's. Please if the weapon is a serious one get an instructor.


----------



## Shotochem (Apr 28, 2008)

Excellent post Crane.  

    I have only started to train in weapons last year.  I have studied all this time defending against weapons and fighting empty handed without really understanding the dynamics and principles of what I'm being attacked with.

     It has been quite an eye opening experience.  I have trained a little bit (mostly dabbling on my own) in long and short staff and thought I was comfortable with it.  Then I started real training and found it to be quite the opposite.  I was the proverbial fish out of water once again and I once again learned I did not know as much as I thought I did.  

     I was completely amazed at how much better I became at defending and disarming once I actually learned how to use the weapon.  I have since taken classes in other weapons to get a feel for them.  I found nunchucku to be quite different than I expected and surprisingly comfortable.  I may go for some more long term traing on them as I am finding them to be an apealing weapon. 

     I also have started the Sai.  I had no idea what a formiddable weapon it could really be.  

The addition of weapons training has really brought back the passion I was losing in my training.  There is just more to learn and keep myself amused.

-Marc-


----------



## Catalyst (Apr 28, 2008)

Maybe they would consider making this a sticky in the weapons forum so that folks can read it before asking the same question(s) about what video to watch or book to read to learn (fill in the blank) weapon.

Just my $0.02


----------



## Big Don (Apr 28, 2008)

To me, the question of the necessity of proper instruction in the use of weapons is a no-brainer. This is a Martial Arts forum, none of us just KNEW how to fight effectively, and likewise, none are born with the knowledge and skills needed to handle weaponry of any sort.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 28, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> I just got inspired to start a thread to discuss the reasoning behind needing proper instruction particularly when it comes to learning weaponry....


 
So can you tell me where I can find a good video to train the nine-section whip or the rope dart or the meteor hammer my MD needs to put a kid through college and I need an excuse for vacation :uhyeah:


Seriously 

Very good post and very well said sir. :asian:


----------



## Flying Crane (Apr 29, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> So can you tell me where I can find a good video to train the nine-section whip or the rope dart or the meteor hammer my MD needs to put a kid through college and I need an excuse for vacation :uhyeah:
> 
> 
> Seriously
> ...


 
I'll work one up for you, it'll be in the mail this afternoon.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 29, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> I'll work one up for you, it'll be in the mail this afternoon.


 
COOL 

Thanks... :uhoh: I think :uhyeah:


----------



## tshadowchaser (Apr 29, 2008)

> Why is it so important to get a good teacher?



People in general do not know if the instructor they are with has or dose not really have the knowledge to train them with properly with any weapon.  Those that unfortunately have less than competent instructors will learn incorrect techniques, poor body mechanics, and more than likely things that are dangerous for them to practice, while thinking that they are learning some great stuff.  They then will pass on this knowledge , or worse try to use it.  
I know to many instructors that have taken a clip here and there from a instructional video or a clip off utube and then passed that small segment of material on as part of there training, without ever knowing the reason behind the technique.


----------



## Imua Kuntao (Apr 29, 2008)

There are schools that teach weapons like the 3 section staff. I know my form/set/kune/kata is different from the other Imua Kuntao people, but the weapons instruction is from a good background with some history. Look to the Chinese Kung Fu or Kuntao schools, I see on the net there are more than just a few schools.


----------



## Langenschwert (Apr 29, 2008)

Here's another reason why to get a good instructor:

Respect.  Our ancestors literally _died_ for this knowledge, or for the lack of it.  They paid in blood for what we use as recreation.

So when you take a sword and flip it around like a majorette does a baton, it isn't swordsmanship.  It's treating a weapon like a toy.  I'm not too sure that's very respectful of those who have gone before.

The historical German masters decried this sort of behaviour and called one who practiced it a "Leichmeister" (dance-master), a derogatory term.  The introduction of HS 3227.a (the so-called "Dobringer" fechtbuch, from about 1389) actually starts out condemning the Leichmeisters on page ONE.  Obviously the author felt that glorifying "play fighting" was so damaging to the "true Art" that he couldn't allow that kind of swordsmanship go unanswered.  Perhaps neither should we.

However, it's a free country.  You can flip a sword or a staff as part of a glorified rhythmic gymnastics routine, and have a great time.  Fill your tabi.  You can sit in your basement and make up a "sword style" in your spare time.  Just don't think that it has _anything_ to do with what those who actually you know, _fought_ with those weapons did as a way of life.  And pray that you'll never have to use your fictional, made-up, BS style to resolve a horrible *non-fictional* combat.

I'm not saying that I know much about swordsmanship.  I'm just a grunt, but I teach what I know and I try to be a faithful proponent of masters long dead.  Compared to those that have gone before, I know nothing.  I can only hope to do better today than I did yesterday.  When I train, I'm mindful of the blood that's been shed for what I'm learning, and every time I'm amazed at the ingenuity of the medieval masters.  I don't want to be a Leichmeister.  I'm just trying to be a _swordsman_.

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Langenschwert (Apr 30, 2008)

Just a tiny error in my post: the author of HS 3227a mentions the Leichmeisters on page TWO of the longsword section, not page one. 

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## JWLuiza (Apr 30, 2008)

It is interesting the things people DON'T learn about weapons.  For example, the Nunchaku is OK as a swinging weapon, but is also really good as a grappling/control type weapon.  If you just learn how to swing it around, you are missing at least 50% of the weapons techniques.


----------



## geezer (May 2, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> It is interesting the things people DON'T learn about weapons. For example, the Nunchaku is OK as a swinging weapon, but is also really good as a grappling/control type weapon. If you just learn how to swing it around, you are missing at least 50% of the weapons techniques.


And just think of all the damage a properly trained practioner could do with that stethoscope your avatar has across his neck. Then ...imagine that it's been chilled!


----------



## wrc619 (Aug 21, 2008)

Any person with weapon skills can always learn improvements from a more experienced mentor.  In the USN, whether or not you grew up around firearms, you go through a course of training and fire to demonstarte expertise before being aloowed to use said firearm.  I have learned some good pointers, even though I was well taught through various civilian shooting programs.  Also, our baton is used very much like a short stick is.  I was always smart enough to use a club as a blunt trauma instrument.  With training, I can now use it *effectively* as a precision(ish) trauma instrument.


----------



## ridler2012 (Sep 16, 2008)

harlan said:


> Yep. A good teacher makes all the difference.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ItAm-vIGg&feature=related




Thanks for sharing... It's fun to learn if there's a video to keep it more interesting...


----------



## jarrod (Sep 17, 2008)

this is a very good & well thought out post, however i'm going to be the first devil's advocate here.

i think it depends largely on 1) the weapon/style in question 2) the purpose of training, & 3) the experience level of the martial artist.

1)  the principles of engery transfer are essentially the same.  if you train any style that has taught you how to throw a solid punch, you can probably figure out how to do it with say a 2 foot stick.  if you can punch quickly & accurately you can probably get along with a knife.  obviously some of the more complicated weapons you mentioned (meteor hammer, chain whip) aren't really safe to practice undirected.  

2) is your goal self-defense, fun, or what?  how serious is your goal?  

i'll use myself as an example, since i recently posted a thread asking for dvd recommendations on la canne (french stick fighting).  i'm interested in practical stick-fighting, yet i don't really plan to carry a cane around with me on a day to day basis.  so i'm essentially training for fun.  as long as i don't hurt myself or a training partner, i'm just fine.  which brings us to...

3) i've been doing martial arts for 15 years now.  i have good control, knowledge of body mechanics (i.e., can feel if i'm putting myself out of position, over-using certian muscles, etc.) & a feel for what works & what doesn't.  so when i'm able, i fully intend to pick up some la canne dvds, protective gear, & start exchanging whacks with a willing training partner .  this is vastly different from someone with no knowledge of martial arts buying a three sectional staff & some panther videos & going nuts.

like i said, good post, i just wanted to throw out some thoughts.

jf


----------



## tko4u (Sep 20, 2008)

my instructor never ever lets us use a weapon unless he is there and has trained us with it. more safety than anything


----------



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 12, 2009)

tellner said:


> As G-d is my witness I met a teacher who demands that his black belts toddle down to the police station to register their hands as deadly weapons. There must be prosecutors and personal injury lawyers who wake up with enormous erections when they hear about him



Didn't realize lawyers had enormous genetalia.



jarrod said:


> this is a very good & well thought out post, however i'm going to be the first devil's advocate here.
> 
> i think it depends largely on 1) the weapon/style in question 2) the purpose of training, & 3) the experience level of the martial artist.



Good points. Some weapons are much more intuitive than others.


----------



## tellner (Mar 13, 2009)

Thems Fighting Words said:


> Didn't realize lawyers had enormous genetalia.



Many lawyers *are* enormous genitalia.


----------



## chinto (May 3, 2009)

tellner said:


> If you're planning on using one for self defense then for the love of Cthulhu find a teacher who knows a little bit about the legal aspects of deadly force in self defense. The stupidity I've heard from martial arts teachers on the subject beggars description.
> 
> As G-d is my witness I met a teacher who demands that his black belts toddle down to the police station to register their hands as deadly weapons. There must be prosecutors and personal injury lawyers who wake up with enormous erections when they hear about him




Are you in OREGON then?  I can tell you that no state in the union... THE United States Of America  has any law or even way to 'register hands' as Deadly Weapons!!  that is just ridiculous and i would tell my instructor so if he were to say something like that. 

I know that most police departments do try to keep an idea of who the higher ranked  ( brown belt and equivalent rank and higher)  martial artists in their aria are when they can...  but this myth of registering hands is just stupid.


----------



## tellner (May 3, 2009)

chinto said:


> Are you in OREGON then?  I can tell you that no state in the union... THE United States Of America  has any law or even way to 'register hands' as Deadly Weapons!!  that is just ridiculous and i would tell my instructor so if he were to say something like that.
> 
> I know that most police departments do try to keep an idea of who the higher ranked  ( brown belt and equivalent rank and higher)  martial artists in their aria are when they can...  but this myth of registering hands is just stupid.



Of course it's ridiculous. I'm not sure whether the instructor is ignorant or just wants his students to feel like T3|-| D34Dl33Z. Besides, if the police in good-sized city tried to keep tabs on all the brown- and black-belts they'd have to get together a budget and spend a lot of time keeping track of six year olds in the local McDojos. 

A black belt is not a law degree. I wish more martial arts teachers understood this.


----------



## jks9199 (May 3, 2009)

chinto said:


> Are you in OREGON then?  I can tell you that no state in the union... THE United States Of America  has any law or even way to 'register hands' as Deadly Weapons!!  that is just ridiculous and i would tell my instructor so if he were to say something like that.
> 
> I know that most police departments do try to keep an idea of who the higher ranked  ( brown belt and equivalent rank and higher)  martial artists in their aria are when they can...  but this myth of registering hands is just stupid.


BULL!

Maybe a very small town PD with only a few dojos or training halls in the town...  But otherwise, the cops have a bit more to do than try to figure out who's what rank in what martial art.  And, even then, I doubt it.

I could maybe see a cop who happened to be a martial artist having an idea about others around... but that's no different than a cop who's into motorcycles knowing who else rides.

Then there's the whole issue of which "advanced martial artists" are even worth caring about...  Every kiddie black belt?  Only adults?  What about a sports oriented school vs reality based?  Or... how about skilled boxers and wrestlers?  I guess we should be monitoring all the high school wrestling teams, too?


----------



## Carol (May 4, 2009)

While I've never had an instructor that was irresponsible with use of force, I would not go to an MA instructor for legal advice anymore than I would go to them for a latte.  I didn't join a school to learn about the law, I joined a school to learn how to fight.

Many folks spend several thousand dollars over time on their training, but will not make a brief consultation with a qualified defense attorney with an interest in personal protection issues to learn how to reduce their risk of running afoul with the law.  Its cheap insurance for whatever lies ahead of us.


----------



## lklawson (May 4, 2009)

Honestly, use of force really isn't *THAT* hard, legally. Follow what I call the "four pillars" (opportunity, Imminent Jeopardy, Ability, Preclusion) and make sure you pass the "Reasonable Man" sniff test and you're good.

Here's the relevant section from the rec.martial-arts Newbies Guide to Self Defense:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/c632a7a01463227c?dmode=source


Subject: 10 - Deadly Force and the Force Continuum

In the words of Jim Keating:
"To have a defensible self-defense case you need several
factors in your favor. They are simple and they must be
present or you are going to jail for a long time. These
factors are this:
* Opportunity
* Imminent Jeopardy
* Ability
* Preclusion ​Leave out one or more of these factors and you lose. Have
these aspects present and provable and it's much more likely
that you'll win."
​[Elements of Legitimate Self Defense]
As noted above, it's canonical that there are four elements of
legitimate Self Defense.

Ability:
This is the physical capability to kill or seriously injure.
Sometimes this means a weapon such as a knife, club, or gun. It can
also mean "Disparity of Force." Disparity of Force in this context is
when there is a large enough difference between the attacker and the
attacked that raw physical capability alone is enough to be recognized
as Deadly Force. The typical examples are a group attack, though
unarmed, against a single individual, or the proverbial attack by a
300 pound enraged linebacker against a 90 year old fragile boned
grandmother.

Opportunity:
Opportunity is similar to Ability, in that it reflects a raw ability
to inflict grievous harm. However, Opportunity is more often linked
to physical proximity. If the attacker is not within range to perform
the attack then there is no threat. An attacker with a knife 30 feet
away is no attacker at all. On the other hand, an attacker with a
firearm 30 feet away is most certainly within range to inflict bodily
harm. An attacker must have the "Opportunity" to use his "Ability"
for the attack to be credible.

Imminent Jeopardy:
This means that the threat is immediate and that a "Reasonable Man"
would believe, based on what information is available at the time,
that the aggressor's intent is to cause severe physical harm or death.
Threats by the aggressor of some future attack do not satisfy Imminent
Jeopardy while threats or actions that indicate an immediate intention
do. 

Preclusion:
This means that all other options preceding Deadly Force were either 
exhausted or were not viable. Some places have a Duty to Retreat law
or legal precedent. Essentially these address the same issue.
Legally and morally the individual must reasonably eliminate all other
methods to stop an attack before resorting to Deadly Force. This does
not mean that the individual must first "try, fail, discard, and then
try another" to eliminate all other option. Many options are
eliminated by immediacy of the threat. As an example, one simply does
not have time to call the police and report a burglar when an
aggressor is in the process of pounding you into jelly.

[The Force Continuum]
The Force Continuum is a concept of escalating Force responses to
match the level of threat or appropriate response. The primary
audience for the Force Continuum is Law Enforcement, Security, or
others who may have to respond to complex force justification
situations. Its application to civilian Self Defense in our ever
more litigious society is somewhat obvious.

The Force Continuum is generally represented by six "levels" with non-
verbal "presence" on one end of the scale and lethal responses at the
other end.

Level 1: Presence
Hostile (or criminal) activity is deterred simply by being seen.
Criminals usually don't want witnesses and may cease simply by being
observed. This may be facilitated by adopting an "Authoritative" or
"Assertive," but not aggressive, posture or bearing.

Level 2: Verbal Commands
Assertive, well selected, commands to "stop" or "move away" can
sometimes be sufficient though Verbal Commands can range up through
shouting. Presence and Verbal Commands are most often used in
conjunction with each other and, together, offer the lowest level of
"force" response possible. The Verbal Commands level is also the
appropriate level to attempt verbal de-escalation.

Level 3: Restraint
This level includes holds, locks, controls, and restraint devices such
as "come-along" holds, "submission" holds, and hand-cuffs. Sometimes
this level is referred to as "Soft Hands" meaning that the hands are
not formed as fists for the purpose of striking to cause permanent
damage.

Level 4: Non-Lethal Weapons
This level is meant to include devices that are generally considered 
"non-lethal" such as pepper spray, and other chemical agents, and
electronic stun devices.

Level 5: Impact Weapons
Sometimes called "Hard Hands" to imply the use of fists to inflict
more serious, but not necessarily lethal, injury, this level is
intended to represent temporary physical incapacitation. It includes
use of impact weapons such as batons and fists with the goal of
"injuring to stop" but not killing. For most Law Enforcement this
means that high vulnerability targets such as the head are off limits.
Arms, legs, joints, and nerves and "pressure points" are generally the
targets of choice.

Level 6: Deadly Force
This level is universally known as "Deadly Force." As the name
indicates, it includes all methods generally accepted to be deadly.
This includes firearms, knives, and blunt instruments targeted at the
head. This level may also legally include choke holds inclusive of
both "strangulation" chokes as well as the infamous "sleeper"
blood-choke.

The intention of the Force Continuum is to lay out an escalation of
force appropriate to the situation. To quote one Internet author:

"'Never shoot what you can baton; never baton what you can spray;
never spray what you can punch; never punch what you can walk away
from.' Less is best."
-Sly, _The psychology of self defense and the force continuum_

Sometimes it can be difficult to know where you are at on the Force
Continuum, to understand what level of response is appropriate.
Again, let me quote, this time from North Carolina Wesleyan College
chart intended for Law Enforcement Officers:

THE CONTINUUM OF FORCE
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| Suspect's Resistance Level: | Officer's Level: |
| 1. Suspect presence | 1. Interview stance |
| 2. Verbal resistance | 2. Verbal commands |
| 3. Passive resistance | 3. Passive techniques (handcuffs) |
| 4. Defensive resistance | 4. Chemical agents |
| 5. Active physical resistance | 5. Physical tactics/impact weapons|
| 6. Firearms/deadly force | 6. Firearms/deadly force |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

- http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/205/205lect03.htm

Peace favor your sword,Kirk


----------



## chinto (May 7, 2009)

I think its more about adults from dojo's who teach the bunkai and not for sport that they kinda like to know about.  i live in a town of about ohh 50,000 to 75,000 ..  but I bet if you asked most police they do keep an ear out to the better dojo's and such for who is skilled.  not because they figure they will be arresting them, as much i think as a lot of the same dojo's have LEO's attending them.   but ya most cops seem to have an attitude that any one who is not a cop might be a potential suspect to arrest.  sad but true.


----------



## Supra Vijai (Feb 4, 2011)

Talk about resurrecting an old thread lol.. Just a cpl of quick things



jarrod said:


> 1) the principles of engery transfer are essentially the same. if you train any style that has taught you how to throw a solid punch, you can probably figure out how to do it with say a 2 foot stick. if you can punch quickly & accurately you can probably get along with a knife. obviously some of the more complicated weapons you mentioned (meteor hammer, chain whip) aren't really safe to practice undirected.


 
We always get told fighting with a weapon is not the same as unarmed no matter how similar the actions are. The introduction of a weapon changes the game drastically, different angles of attack, different targets and options, different distancing, timing etc. So while you could throw a solid punch while holding a stick, it'd still only be a fist reinforced by a stick held in it. It would't _really_ be an effective strike utilizing the tactics of the weapon or the actual weapon itself - whether that means butt strikes, end of the weapon, as a blocking tool with both hands or whatever. At least that's my take on it based on the way we train our weapons vs our unarmed. Thoughts?



lklawson said:


> An attacker with a knife 30 feet away is no attacker at all. On the other hand, an attacker with a firearm 30 feet away is most certainly within range to inflict bodily harm. An attacker must have the "Opportunity" to use his "Ability" for the attack to be credible.


 
Seems no one told that to my instructor lol! :uhyeah: We get taught the 'safe' distance from a knife is a minimum of 20 feet - and that's to avoid dying. That space can be covered by someone who is committed in a second or 2 which is faster than most peoples' reaction time which then means you can still get cut pretty bad if the adrenaline dump kicks off your freeze response. Whenever we do knife work now and the instructor pulls a knife and tells us to get to where we 'think we'd be safe', my reaction is to walk out of the dojo with a "see you next class guys!"


----------



## tayl0124 (Aug 27, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> How about some of the more exotic weapons, like sai, nunchaku, tonfa, three-section staff, gwan dao, nine-section whip, rope dart, meteor hammer, etc.  Once again, you could probably pick these up and be hazardous to your enemy, but some of these weapons are so strange, it can be hard to even imagine how to use them.
> 
> T



I attended a Kobudo seminar once where they talked about the nunchaku,  they kind of stated that they would be the one weapon that you wouldn't mind so much if the enemy knocked them out of your hands and tried to use them(assuming they didn't have any training with them) as they would probably do more harm to themselves that to you, not knowing how to correctly use them.


----------

