# Kuhapdo Hapkido sword fighting



## mastercole (Apr 16, 2012)

I did not realize Hapkido had swords. I guess that came from the Samurai?

This site says this man is possibly the only master of Kuhapdo in the USA. http://www.blackeaglemartialarts.us/about/what-is-kuhapdo/

"Kuhapdo is offered by Black Eagle Martial Arts under the instruction of Master Son Young Gul, possibly the only master of this art in the US today." 

This guy might be a top level teacher?  http://www.blackeaglemartialarts.us/staff/  They started in 1960 according to their logo.

Anyone ever train with this guy?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 16, 2012)

Firstly, I would doubt that it "came from the samurai" in any way other than a rather indirect route. Next, unless I'm mistaken, the name "Kuhapdo" is simply the Korean rendering of "Iaido", so to say that Hapkido includes it doesn't ring quite true to me either, more that some Hapkido schools also incorporate their form of Kuhapdo.

Based on the picture alone, I'd be very reticent to call Mr Gul a "master" of swordsmanship, for a few reasons. But then again, that's just based on a single still picture, so I wouldn't go so far as to make any major appraisals of his skills. That said, the various videos I've found on Kuhapdo don't fill me with confidence.... 

I'd be interested to know the claims of this being a Korean sword system, though, rather than a repackaged Japanese one.


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## puunui (Apr 16, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Firstly, I would doubt that it "came from the samurai" in any way other than a rather indirect route.



I don't understand what you are saying. Can you explain or rephrase? 




Chris Parker said:


> Next, unless I'm mistaken, the name "Kuhapdo" is simply the Korean rendering of "Iaido", so to say that Hapkido includes it doesn't ring quite true to me either, more that some Hapkido schools also incorporate their form of Kuhapdo.
> 
> Sword is taught in Hapkido, but I would say not as extensively as Iaido. As for kuhapdo, GM Lim teaches it as a separate art, in addition to hapkido.
> 
> ...


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## puunui (Apr 16, 2012)

Also if you look at the history section of that page, it mentions that an exchange began with Mr. Komei Sekiguchi. Do you know who that gentleman is? I never heard of him and am wondering if you have.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I did not realize Hapkido had swords. I guess that came from the Samurai?


What swordwork I have done in hapkido has been more along the lines of what I've seen of aikido sword; mainly kumitachi (two person sword drills).  My sabeom did show us some iai kata that he'd picked up, but while he called it kuhapdo for the benefit of the Korean school owner, he credited the kata to whatever iaido is taught in the ZNKR.

As for the samurai, by the time hapkido was established, the samurai class had been abolished.  Also, DRAJJ was a fairly recent art at the time (less than a century if I am not mistaken) and probably was not practiced by the samurai (to any DRAJJ practitioners, if I am wrong, please correct me).  If DRAJJ has sword work, it would be the most likely source material.  That, or aikido sword.  I was not aware that Choi Dojunim taught sword work (not saying he didn't; my knowledge of his curriculum is not all that thorough).



mastercole said:


> This site says this man is possibly the only master of Kuhapdo in the USA. http://www.blackeaglemartialarts.us/about/what-is-kuhapdo/
> 
> "Kuhapdo is offered by Black Eagle Martial Arts under the instruction of Master Son Young Gul, possibly the only master of this art in the US today."
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with him, but kuhapdo is the Korean rendering of iaido.  Same kanji, different pronunciation.  Kind of like aikido and hapkido.  I know that ZNKR iaido kata have a few that begin kneeling.  I'm sure that there are other iaidoka who could tell you more.  The iaijutsu that I study currently is not the same tradition.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> Who is Mr. Gul? I do not believe that GM Lim says his art is a korean sword system. I believe he trained in Japan and acknowledges that it is a japanese sword system. If you go to this webpage, http://jungkikwan.com/ and click on the link to GM Lim, you can see his 8th dan iaido certificate from the "Japan Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu". Does that certificate look authentic to you?


Master Gul is the gent in Master Cole's link: http://www.blackeaglemartialarts.us/about/what-is-kuhapdo/


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## puunui (Apr 17, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As for the samurai, by the time hapkido was established, the samurai class had been abolished.  Also, DRAJJ was a fairly recent art at the time (less than a century if I am not mistaken) and probably was not practiced by the samurai (to any DRAJJ practitioners, if I am wrong, please correct me).



I would say that TAKEDA Sokaku was samurai, irrespective of the meiji restoration's effect on the samurai class. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I was not aware that Choi Dojunim taught sword work (not saying he didn't; my knowledge of his curriculum is not all that thorough).



Yes he did teach sword. GM Ji also teaches the sword, but I wouldn't say that it came entirely from GM Choi.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> I don't understand what you are saying. Can you explain or rephrase?



I'll try.

Firstly, the Samurai didn't exist at the time that Hapkido originated, nor during the time that Choi was in Japan. Therefore there couldn't be anything said to have come from them. More importantly, the idea of "this art came from the samurai" is a rather odd idea to put forth, as "the samurai" were as varied as any social group in any culture, so things didn't really "come from" them (as a group), it's more that there were skills and methods employed by the samurai (in different forms, with different emphasis etc) across Japan and across over 1,000 years of history.

So, other than in a very inaccurate and indirect way (some physical methods being imported/adopted from similar skill sets which may or may not be related to methods used by some samurai in one area of Japan at a certain time, but not all, and not across all time periods and in all regions), I wouldn't say that it "came from the samurai".



puunui said:


> Sword is taught in Hapkido, but I would say not as extensively as Iaido. As for kuhapdo, GM Lim teaches it as a separate art, in addition to hapkido.



Where does Hapkido's sword method come from? I'm also not sure what you mean when you say "not as extensively as Iaido"... do you mean that more Hapkido schools incorporate Iaido instead of using Hapkido sword methods?



puunui said:


> Who is Mr. Gul?



Mentioned in the OP. As it is a Western site, I have assumed that the name was Westernised in it's order as well, but if it's meant to be Mr Son, then that's who I'm referring to.



puunui said:


> I do not believe that GM Lim says his art is a korean sword system. I believe he trained in Japan and acknowledges that it is a japanese sword system. If you go to this webpage, http://jungkikwan.com/ and click on the link to GM Lim, you can see his 8th dan iaido certificate from the "Japan Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu". Does that certificate look authentic to you?



The certificate is interesting.... it gives little information, honestly, including having no mention of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Basically from right to left, it says: 
- Daiichigo (first issue) with a seal stamped
- Iaido (with what looks like a date underneath)
- Hachidan Hayashi(unknown) Ryu (8th Dan)
- Lim Hyun Sool's name
- Date of issue
- Nippon Ko(unknown) Bujutsu Iaido Renmei (Japan Old (unknown) Martial Arts Iaido Federation)
- Kaicho (Hall Chief) Sekiguchi Komei

So it states that it's a licence from Sekiguchi Komei for 8th Dan in Iaido, with the Ryu mentioned not being Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, and a mention of an association that I am unfamiliar with. It has the hanko stamps, but without getting a good look at those, and a certificate absolutely verified to be from Sekiguchi Sensei, I'm not actually that convinced of what it's veracity is, especially in regards to MJER.

And there really isn't such a thing as "Japan Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu", but that could just be a confusion of moving from one language/culture to another. There is Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, which is Japanese, but saying it's "The Japan MJER" is like saying the America MacDonalds.



puunui said:


> Also if you look at the history section of that page, it mentions that an exchange began with Mr. Komei Sekiguchi. Do you know who that gentleman is? I never heard of him and am wondering if you have.



Yeah, I know who Sekiguchi Komei is. He's the head of one of the larger lines of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, the Yamauchi-ha, spread through his Komeijyuku organisation. 



puunui said:


> I would say that TAKEDA Sokaku was samurai, irrespective of the meiji restoration's effect on the samurai class.



 Then you don't understand what the Samurai were, or what the abolishing of the caste meant. Takeda was no more a samurai than any other Japanese martial art instructor, as samurai didn't exist anymore. To say "irrespective of the Meiji Restoration's effect" is to say that you don't understand what it actually was, and don't care about understanding the correct terminology and categorisation.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, DRAJJ was a fairly recent art at the time (less than a century if I am not mistaken) and probably was not practiced by the samurai (to any DRAJJ practitioners, if I am wrong, please correct me). If DRAJJ has sword work, it would be the most likely source material. That, or aikido sword. I was not aware that Choi Dojunim taught sword work (not saying he didn't; my knowledge of his curriculum is not all that thorough).



Ah, can of worms, my friend... Daito Ryu claims a history going back near onto a thousand years, starting with Minamoto Yoshitsune etc, however it is widely questioned due to a large number of reasons. A commonly held belief is that it was formulated by Takeda Sokaku himself, who was trained in a number of systems beforehand. This has it's support, obviously, but it then starts to question Daito Ryu's place as a Koryu, which is where it starts to get rather messy... but I will say that asking Daito Ryu practitioners to correct you will get you their claims, but not anything verifiable (historically). Not too dissimilar to Hapkido's origins, if we get down to it.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am not familiar with him, but kuhapdo is the Korean rendering of iaido. Same kanji, different pronunciation. Kind of like aikido and hapkido. I know that ZNKR iaido kata have a few that begin kneeling. I'm sure that there are other iaidoka who could tell you more. The iaijutsu that I study currently is not the same tradition.



The 12 kata of Seitei Iai (Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei) were originally only 9, and were taken from a range of Ryu, with the first coming from MJER/MSR. Later other kata were added, bringing it up to the 12 currently taught. The seated ones come from the Eishin Ryu lineages (MSR/MJER). Many Iai lineages have seated kata as well as standing ones, for various reasons, and their seated postures vary accordingly (two are used in Seitei, being Seiza and Tatehiza). Aside from variations of those two, Iai Goshi is also relatively common, being kinda halfway between the two other forms.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Where does Hapkido's sword method come from? I'm also not sure what you mean when you say "not as extensively as Iaido"... do you mean that more Hapkido schools incorporate Iaido instead of using Hapkido sword methods?


I don't know that you can really call them 'hapkido sword' methods.  Virtually 100% of the time, hapkidoists practicing sword are using a bokuto or a katana and are using techniques appropriate to that weapon, which are most likely culled from JSA, right down to the wearing it through the dde with the edge upward (Korean historically wore their swords hanging from the belt with the edge facing downward as a western officer would wear a saber).  Swordwork in hapkido tends to be less flashy than Haidong Gumdo or any of its spin off arts and doesn't involve color corp batton twirling techniques, cartwheels or handstands.  My comments are based only on my personal observations and correspondence with other hapkidoists.  In most hapkido manuals, the sword is featured mainly in the capacity of another weapon to defend against.



Chris Parker said:


> Ah, can of worms, my friend... Daito Ryu claims a history going back near onto a thousand years, starting with Minamoto Yoshitsune etc, however it is widely questioned due to a large number of reasons. A commonly held belief is that it was formulated by Takeda Sokaku himself, who was trained in a number of systems beforehand. This has it's support, obviously, but it then starts to question Daito Ryu's place as a Koryu, which is where it starts to get rather messy... but I will say that asking Daito Ryu practitioners to correct you will get you their claims, but not anything verifiable (historically).


My informationis based on what I have heard about DRAJJ, so it certainly could be incorrect and certainly is incomplete.  As I have no interest in exploding myths or getting at the 'real truth' of DRAJJ history, I'd personally concede to their claims.



Chris Parker said:


> Not too dissimilar to Hapkido's origins, if we get down to it.


Hapkido as I have seen it in most 'hapkido schools' looks a lot more like GM Ji's hapkido than what I have heard described about Choi Dojunim's.  So depending on how you perceive GM Ji's hapkido, it's technical content originated with more than one person (tqo at least: Choi Dojunim and GM Ji).

On the other hand, most of the "hapkido schools" that are in my area are actually taekwondo schools that claim to also teach hapkido, though their hapkido looks an awful lot like taekwondo kicking and striking mixed with HKD-ish hoshinsul and some spin kicks tossed in.  Nothing wrong with that, but I question how representative it is of hapkido, GM Ji's or otherwise.



Chris Parker said:


> The 12 kata of Seitei Iai (Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei) were originally only 9, and were taken from a range of Ryu, with the first coming from MJER/MSR.


Sounds like the way that kendo kata were put together.



Chris Parker said:


> Later other kata were added, bringing it up to the 12 currently taught. The seated ones come from the Eishin Ryu lineages (MSR/MJER). Many Iai lineages have seated kata as well as standing ones, for various reasons, and their seated postures vary accordingly (two are used in Seitei, being Seiza and Tatehiza).


For some reason, I had thought that they were up to thirteen currently. 



Chris Parker said:


> Aside from variations of those two, Iai Goshi is also relatively common, being kinda halfway between the two other forms.


Interesting; in Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, the posture that we take prior to beginning hokei (kata) is called iai goshi.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> I would say that TAKEDA Sokaku was samurai, irrespective of the meiji restoration's effect on the samurai class.


Well, his father was samurai.  Any idea as to what ryu his kenjutsu would have been based in?



puunui said:


> Yes he did teach sword. GM Ji also teaches the sword, but I wouldn't say that it came entirely from GM Choi.


What were GM Ji's other sources?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't know that you can really call them 'hapkido sword' methods.  Virtually 100% of the time, hapkidoists practicing sword are using a bokuto or a katana and are using techniques appropriate to that weapon, which are most likely culled from JSA, right down to the wearing it through the dde with the edge upward (Korean historically wore their swords hanging from the belt with the edge facing downward as a western officer would wear a saber).  Swordwork in hapkido tends to be less flashy than Haidong Gumdo or any of its spin off arts and doesn't involve color corp batton twirling techniques, cartwheels or handstands.  My comments are based only on my personal observations and correspondence with other hapkidoists.  In most hapkido manuals, the sword is featured mainly in the capacity of another weapon to defend against.



If they're taught as part of Hapkido, I'd probably call them "Hapkido sword methods", unless they are completely distinct and removed from Hapkido's teachings. But that said, I gather from your comment about "using techniques appropriate to that weapon", it's just generic sword stuff, rather than anything particular, yeah? Oh, and the sword hanging down from the waist is the way a Tachi is worn as well (most of the time...).

The question still stands, though, where exactly do the methods for using a sword as taught in Hapkido schools come from?



Daniel Sullivan said:


> My informationis based on what I have heard about DRAJJ, so it certainly could be incorrect and certainly is incomplete.  As I have no interest in exploding myths or getting at the 'real truth' of DRAJJ history, I'd personally concede to their claims.



Ha, yeah, I understand that... the thing is that the history they'll tell you will be largely questioned by others. But again, this can get quite messy dealing with such matters. What you've heard is the prevalent belief about Sokaku Takeda's role (as a founder, rather than an inheritor), but that would be loudly argued by the members themselves.

Ah, messy... 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Hapkido as I have seen it in most 'hapkido schools' looks a lot more like GM Ji's hapkido than what I have heard described about Choi Dojunim's.  So depending on how you perceive GM Ji's hapkido, it's technical content originated with more than one person (tqo at least: Choi Dojunim and GM Ji).



I'm looking mainly at the claims of Choi here. From what I understand, Ji was a student of Choi's, yeah?



Daniel Sullivan said:


> On the other hand, most of the "hapkido schools" that are in my area are actually taekwondo schools that claim to also teach hapkido, though their hapkido looks an awful lot like taekwondo kicking and striking mixed with HKD-ish hoshinsul and some spin kicks tossed in.  Nothing wrong with that, but I question how representative it is of hapkido, GM Ji's or otherwise.



Ha, yeah, I've seen that as well.... 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sounds like the way that kendo kata were put together.



Hmm, no. The Kendo no Kata were created for Kendo, not taken from anything else. There was a large influence from a couple of Ryu, most particularly Ono-ha Itto Ryu, but nothing was really taken directly. The aim was for the kata to represent the core strategies of Kenjutsu.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> For some reason, I had thought that they were up to thirteen currently.


 
The last two were added in 2000, so unless they've added another recently (and I've missed it... hmm), it's twelve.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Interesting; in Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu, the posture that we take prior to beginning hokei (kata) is called iai goshi.



Yeah, it's relatively common.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, his father was samurai.  Any idea as to what ryu his kenjutsu would have been based in?



Ono-ha Itto Ryu. Easy. And as for his father being a samurai, that still doesn't make Takeda Sokaku himself one, if the samurai social rank no longer exists. And that's the key thing, the samurai were a social rank, a division of the populace, so if that division no longer exists, then there are no samurai, and no-one is a samurai. There were former samurai for a while, until old age and other things got them, but that would be as close as you could possibly have gotten.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> If they're taught as part of Hapkido, I'd probably call them "Hapkido sword methods", unless they are completely distinct and removed from Hapkido's teachings. But that said, I gather from your comment about "using techniques appropriate to that weapon", it's just generic sword stuff, rather than anything particular, yeah? Oh, and the sword hanging down from the waist is the way a Tachi is worn as well (most of the time...).


From what I have been able to tell, it is generic stuff that has been put together into a coherent curriculum.  RE the tachi, I am aware of that, but the wearing of the sword through the obi with the blade curved up is distinctly Japanese and has no basis in historical Korean sword work.



Chris Parker said:


> The question still stands, though, where exactly do the methods for using a sword as taught in Hapkido schools come from?


Assuming that Choi studied with Takeda, I'd say DRAJJ.  If you assume that he didn't, then its anybody's guess.  Otherwise, I suspect that it varies from school to school.



Chris Parker said:


> Ha, yeah, I understand that... the thing is that the history they'll tell you will be largely questioned by others. But again, this can get quite messy dealing with such matters. What you've heard is the prevalent belief about Sokaku Takeda's role (as a founder, rather than an inheritor), but that would be loudly argued by the members themselves.
> 
> Ah, messy...


Only if you get in and roll around in it.



Chris Parker said:


> I'm looking mainly at the claims of Choi here. From what I understand, Ji was a student of Choi's, yeah?


Yes, but not everything that went into Sin Moo Hapkido was learned from Choi Dojunim.  The kicks, for example.  



Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, no. The Kendo no Kata were created for Kendo, not taken from anything else. There was a large influence from a couple of Ryu, most particularly Ono-ha Itto Ryu, but nothing was really taken directly. The aim was for the kata to represent the core strategies of Kenjutsu.


 True.



Chris Parker said:


> The last two were added in 2000, so unless they've added another recently (and I've missed it... hmm), it's twelve.


Or I'm mistaken.



Chris Parker said:


> Ono-ha Itto Ryu. Easy. And as for his father being a samurai, that still doesn't make Takeda Sokaku himself one, if the samurai social rank no longer exists. And that's the key thing, the samurai were a social rank, a division of the populace, so if that division no longer exists, then there are no samurai, and no-one is a samurai. There were former samurai for a while, until old age and other things got them, but that would be as close as you could possibly have gotten.


Glenn's statement about Takeda being samurai is really a side issue that the two of you can debate if you wish.  The fact is that if the ryu was developed and used by the samurai, and assuming that Takeda learned it from his father, who was samurai (likely), and assuming that that Choi Dojunim learned it from Takeda (a point that is debated), then I would say that Choi Dojunim's sword curriculum _did_ come from the samurai.  

If you do not assume that he learned it from Takeda, then you'd have to know who he learned it from prior to saying one way or the other.  The real question is this:  How much of the sword work in hapkido schools comes from Choi Dojunim?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I have been able to tell, it is generic stuff that has been put together into a coherent curriculum.  RE the tachi, I am aware of that, but the wearing of the sword through the obi with the blade curved up is distinctly Japanese and has no basis in historical Korean sword work.



Yep. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Assuming that Choi studied with Takeda, I'd say DRAJJ.  If you assume that he didn't, then its anybody's guess.  Otherwise, I suspect that it varies from school to school.



Not quite. I feel that Choi had some contact with Daito Ryu (whether it was directly under Takeda Sokaku is another matter), but that doesn't indicate how much he was shown. And, from what I've come across, there wasn't any sword method that he showed when he returned to Korea, so it can be taken that he didn't learn them from Takeda. Additionally, Daito Ryu takes it's sword work from a few other sources themselves, and some lines include forms of Mugen Shinto Ryu Iai and Ono-ha Itto Ryu, as well as having some methods themselves.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Only if you get in and roll around in it.



Ha, yeah... believe me, I've been very diplomatic about things here.... 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but not everything that went into Sin Moo Hapkido was learned from Choi Dojunim.  The kicks, for example.



Yep, true. But what happened once Choi came back from Japan and began teaching in Korea is pretty well known and fine. Later additions/alterations, such as the kicking methods, are not the core of the debate.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> True.


 
Yep.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or I'm mistaken.



Yeah.... 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Glenn's statement about Takeda being samurai is really a side issue that the two of you can debate if you wish.  The fact is that if the ryu was developed and used by the samurai, and assuming that Takeda learned it from his father, who was samurai (likely), and assuming that that Choi Dojunim learned it from Takeda (a point that is debated), then I would say that Choi Dojunim's sword curriculum _did_ come from the samurai.


 
My initial comment was more about the false premise of anything coming from "the" samurai. "A" samurai lineage, or history, okay. But the idea of something coming from "the" samurai is just incorrect.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you do not assume that he learned it from Takeda, then you'd have to know who he learned it from prior to saying one way or the other.  The real question is this:  How much of the sword work in hapkido schools comes from Choi Dojunim?



Which is part of the question I'm asking.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> My initial comment was more about the false premise of anything coming from "the" samurai. "A" samurai lineage, or history, okay. But the idea of something coming from "the" samurai is just incorrect.


While I agree with you, I also know that most of the time, people who are not overly familiar with the samurai will express 'samurai lineage' in a way similar to how Master Cole expressed it.  Its like the layman saying that sword work derived from Talhoffer ultimately 'comes from the knights.'  It may not be very precise or precisely correct (I don't believe that Hans Talhoffer was himself a knight), but I know what they mean.  And in essence, the statement is not wrong.



Chris Parker said:


> Which is part of the question I'm asking.


And unfortunately, I cannot present an answer.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Firstly, the Samurai didn't exist at the time that Hapkido originated, nor during the time that Choi was in Japan. Therefore there couldn't be anything said to have come from them. More importantly, the idea of "this art came from the samurai" is a rather odd idea to put forth, as "the samurai" were as varied as any social group in any culture, so things didn't really "come from" them (as a group), it's more that there were skills and methods employed by the samurai (in different forms, with different emphasis etc) across Japan and across over 1,000 years of history. So, other than in a very inaccurate and indirect way (some physical methods being imported/adopted from similar skill sets which may or may not be related to methods used by some samurai in one area of Japan at a certain time, but not all, and not across all time periods and in all regions), I wouldn't say that it "came from the samurai".



To me, your point is semantics based, and also on a very minor point. But like daniel said, I understood what mastercole was trying to say, and I believe you did too. We all did. 



Chris Parker said:


> Where does Hapkido's sword method come from? I'm also not sure what you mean when you say "not as extensively as Iaido"... do you mean that more Hapkido schools incorporate Iaido instead of using Hapkido sword methods?



I know at least some of it came from GM Choi; he did teach sword to his students. However, it was an abbreviated curriculum, which was not as developed as iaido for example. That is what I meant.




Chris Parker said:


> The certificate is interesting.... it gives little information, honestly, including having no mention of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Basically from right to left, it says:
> - Daiichigo (first issue) with a seal stamped
> - Iaido (with what looks like a date underneath)
> - Hachidan Hayashi(unknown) Ryu (8th Dan)
> ...



Is there any way you can verify the authenticity of the certificate by asking someone? Does Sekiguchi Sensei, for example, award dan certificates? It doesn't look like a printed certificate to me, the characters don't have that printed look. 



Chris Parker said:


> Then you don't understand what the Samurai were, or what the abolishing of the caste meant. Takeda was no more a samurai than any other Japanese martial art instructor, as samurai didn't exist anymore. To say "irrespective of the Meiji Restoration's effect" is to say that you don't understand what it actually was, and don't care about understanding the correct terminology and categorisation.



Or you don't understand how samurai or samurai families feel, irrespective of what governmental actions took place to eliminate the class system in Japan. For example, the Hawaiian monarchy was abolished when the US annexed the Kingdom of Hawaii, but there still is a royal lineage that continues to today. In fact, the present queen, abigail kawananakoa, is a client of our office, and everyone still treats her like she is the queen.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Not quite. I feel that Choi had some contact with Daito Ryu (whether it was directly under Takeda Sokaku is another matter), but that doesn't indicate how much he was shown. And, from what I've come across, there wasn't any sword method that he showed when he returned to Korea, so it can be taken that he didn't learn them from Takeda. Additionally, Daito Ryu takes it's sword work from a few other sources themselves, and some lines include forms of Mugen Shinto Ryu Iai and Ono-ha Itto Ryu, as well as having some methods themselves.



GM Choi did teach basic sword when he returned to Korea. But we do not know where he got his sword knowledge. If I were interviewing him, that is one of the things I would have asked, who did you study martial arts under, when, what style and what certifications if any did you receive in Japan. But that's just me. Part of the problem with those interviews, in my opinion, is the relative ability of the person asking the questions, and the translations of the answers.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> To me, your point is semantics based, and also on a very minor point. But like daniel said, I understood what mastercole was trying to say, and I believe you did too. We all did.



 What he was saying was fundamentally flawed, though. From a range of viewpoints.



puunui said:


> I know at least some of it came from GM Choi; he did teach sword to his students. However, it was an abbreviated curriculum, which was not as developed as iaido for example. That is what I meant.



 What do you mean by "not as developed as Iaido"? To be honest, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

With regard to it being an "abbreviated curriculum", that would imply that there was a larger body of information that he reduced... any guesses as to what that larger body would have been? Or why you class what was taught as "abbreviated"?



puunui said:


> Is there any way you can verify the authenticity of the certificate by asking someone? Does Sekiguchi Sensei, for example, award dan certificates? It doesn't look like a printed certificate to me, the characters don't have that printed look.



 No, it doesn't look printed, but that's not the issue. The issues are more that: 
- There is no mention of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, despite the claim that it's a certificate for MJER
- Sekiguchi Komei's name has the title "Kaicho" applied, rather than "Soke", which is his position in his line of MJER. 
- He is Kaicho of the Komeijyuku organisation.... however there is also no mention of that organisation (which is where the licencing would be from).
- The Ryu mentioned is not the one that Lim is saying he is licenced/ranked in.
- I have never heard of any martial art body with the name listed (although that could just be that I haven't heard of it).

For any who haven't seen the certificate, here it is:




There are a few people I can ask, but they'll most likely say they want a closer look at the hanko as well.

To compare, though, this is my Shodan certificate from the Bujinkan:

View attachment $020.jpg

Basically, right to left, it says:
- Menkyo (licence)
- My name
- Basically "to the person here")
- Bujinkan Dojo
- Budo Taijutsu
- Shodan awarded to the person here
- The date of issue
- (the list of Ryu-ha taught: in order, line one is Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu, second line Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppotaijutsu, third line Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu, Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu, Gyokushin Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu)
- Authorised by
- Hatsumi Masaaki Hisamune

As you can see, my certificate lists the correct organisation (when we were still with the Bujinkan), the correct person, states the correct art/system, and so on.



puunui said:


> Or you don't understand how samurai or samurai families feel, irrespective of what governmental actions took place to eliminate the class system in Japan. For example, the Hawaiian monarchy was abolished when the US annexed the Kingdom of Hawaii, but there still is a royal lineage that continues to today. In fact, the present queen, abigail kawananakoa, is a client of our office, and everyone still treats her like she is the queen.



Please.

There are no samurai, and there are no samurai families. There are families that have a samurai history, but that's not the same as your comment. Your example of Hawaiian royalty is frankly irrelevant.



puunui said:


> GM Choi did teach basic sword when he returned to Korea. But we do not know where he got his sword knowledge. If I were interviewing him, that is one of the things I would have asked, who did you study martial arts under, when, what style and what certifications if any did you receive in Japan. But that's just me. Part of the problem with those interviews, in my opinion, is the relative ability of the person asking the questions, and the translations of the answers.



Right.

What do you know of his sword teaching, then? What was it made up of? Was it sword against sword, or was sword just an attacking weapon that you defended against?


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> What he was saying was fundamentally flawed, though. From a range of viewpoints.



From your viewpoint. But again it is a minor point. Let's not dwell on it. 



Chris Parker said:


> With regard to it being an "abbreviated curriculum", that would imply that there was a larger body of information that he reduced... any guesses as to what that larger body would have been? Or why you class what was taught as "abbreviated"?



I have no idea why the sword curriculum of GM Choi was so abbreviated. You have to ask someone else who is more into GM Choi's curriculum than I am. 



Chris Parker said:


> No, it doesn't look printed, but that's not the issue. The issues are more that:
> - There is no mention of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, despite the claim that it's a certificate for MJER
> - Sekiguchi Komei's name has the title "Kaicho" applied, rather than "Soke", which is his position in his line of MJER.
> - He is Kaicho of the Komeijyuku organisation.... however there is also no mention of that organisation (which is where the licencing would be from).
> ...



If you can. Thank you. I searched "komei sekiguchi" in google and found his webpage, including one that listed all of the schools affiliated with him. It lists a bunch of schools all over the world, including several in australia and even one in hawaii, but none in korea. 

http://www.komei-juku.com/schools.html




Chris Parker said:


> There are no samurai, and there are no samurai families. There are families that have a samurai history, but that's not the same as your comment.



If you say so. But I will say that I have seen some local japanese people who have famous samurai or daimyo last names be introduced to those visiting from japan, and the people from japan's eyes go wide and they start explaining what a special name it is, that there are laws in japan prohibiting the use of such last names by those who are not from the family, and so forth. To the japanese people, there still is a bushi class, especially a daimyo class, irrespective of the meiji restoration. But again, it's not a big deal so I would prefer to move on and continue with the discussion and topic at hand. 



Chris Parker said:


> What do you know of his sword teaching, then? What was it made up of? Was it sword against sword, or was sword just an attacking weapon that you defended against?



iron ox would be a better person to answer such questions.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> From your viewpoint. But again it is a minor point. Let's not dwell on it.



You put up Choi's statements as the only real evidence for his claims, I point out that they have rather large problems, and you say that it's a minor point? Really? Okay....



puunui said:


> I have no idea why the sword curriculum of GM Choi was so abbreviated. You have to ask someone else who is more into GM Choi's curriculum than I am.



 That's not what I asked, though. I'm interested in why you think that it is an abbreviated curriculum, why you personally describe it that way, as well as what you mean by "not as developed as Iaido", as it really doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not asking why Choi abbreviated it, I'm asking why you think that it was abbreviated at all (rather than simply being all that Choi had to teach/show).



puunui said:


> If you can. Thank you. I searched "komei sekiguchi" in google and found his webpage, including one that listed all of the schools affiliated with him. It lists a bunch of schools all over the world, including several in australia and even one in hawaii, but none in korea.
> 
> http://www.komei-juku.com/schools.html



As I said, the Komeijyuku organisation is one of the largest MJER organisations around. None in Korea is interesting, though.... 



puunui said:


> If you say so. But I will say that I have seen some local japanese people who have famous samurai or daimyo last names be introduced to those visiting from japan, and the people from japan's eyes go wide and they start explaining what a special name it is, that there are laws in japan prohibiting the use of such last names by those who are not from the family, and so forth. To the japanese people, there still is a bushi class, especially a daimyo class, irrespective of the meiji restoration. But again, it's not a big deal so I would prefer to move on and continue with the discussion and topic at hand.



And people also make money, and get attention because they have the same name as a celebrity, or because they look like one. It doesn't make them one, though. And this doesn't make these people samurai either. All it indicates is that there may be some samurai connection in their family history.



puunui said:


> iron ox would be a better person to answer such questions.



Then hopefully he'll join in.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 20, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm interested in why you think that it is an abbreviated curriculum, why you personally describe it that way, as well as what you mean by "not as developed as Iaido", as it really doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not asking why Choi abbreviated it, I'm asking why you think that it was abbreviated at all (rather than simply being all that Choi had to teach/show).


Probably the same reason that weapons curriculum in most unarmed arts is comparatively abbreviated; it isn't the primary thrust of the art.  I suppose that its possible that Choi Dojunim's sword training wasn't all that extensive (no idea), but then his art is hapkido, not geomdo.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 20, 2012)

One other comment is that kuhapdo is not a term that I have ever heard associated with hapkido.  Most commonly, hapkido sword work is overwhelmingly called 'kumdo' from what I have seen.  Unlike kendo, kumdo is used more generically to describe sword work.  I have also seen kumsul, kumsool, gumsul, and geomsul.


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## puunui (Apr 20, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> And people also make money, and get attention because they have the same name as a celebrity, or because they look like one. It doesn't make them one, though. And this doesn't make these people samurai either. All it indicates is that there may be some samurai connection in their family history.



I see only argument here, no facts. But I will say that if and when you ever go to Japan, you may find that your perspective on things is greatly different than that of the people of Japan. And again, minor point, no sense dwelling on it and derailing the thread.



Chris Parker said:


> Then hopefully he'll join in.



Yes, we can hope.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 21, 2012)

Okay, fact one. There are no samurai. There have not been since the 1870's. Having a famous name in no way makes you a samurai. Fact two. Your comment that there are people with famous (samurai associated) names as some form of argument that there are still samurai has no real facts.

I'll address my use of the term "argument" in my posts on the "GM Choi's first student" thread.


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## puunui (Apr 21, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, fact one. There are no samurai. There have not been since the 1870's. Having a famous name in no way makes you a samurai. Fact two. Your comment that there are people with famous (samurai associated) names as some form of argument that there are still samurai has no real facts.



You are missing the point, which is the Japanese people do not think about in the same way that you do. As an example, check out the following by Sensei Richard Kim regarding his teacher YOSHIDA Kotaro Sensei: "The founder of Hapkido, Mr. Choi -- Japanese name Yoshida, is not related to Yoshida Kotaro, Samurai extraordinary."


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 22, 2012)

Debate about what constitutes a samurai is not related to whether or not the sword techniques taught in daito ryu had a samurai lineage, which I think we've all agreed is the case.  

As far as the OP goes, so far as I know, kuhapdo does not come out of hapkido; it is Koreanized iaido.  Or a Korean cousin of iaido, depending on how much of the technical content has been altered.  

I did look at the link on Iron Ox's signature http://www.jungkifamily.com/kuhapdo.html, and it seems that his school teaches kuhapdo, so I'm sure that he can discuss it with greater accuracy than I.  Based on the information on this site, http://www.eastcoasthapkido.com/kuhapdo/history.html, my assessment is at least seems correct.

Also, this group has a fairly developed Korean sword program:  http://www.midwesthapkido.com/new_page_1.htm


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## puunui (Apr 22, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Debate about what constitutes a samurai



It's not even about that, at least not from my perspective.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 22, 2012)

puunui said:


> You are missing the point, which is the Japanese people do not think about in the same way that you do. As an example, check out the following by Sensei Richard Kim regarding his teacher YOSHIDA Kotaro Sensei: "The founder of Hapkido, Mr. Choi -- Japanese name Yoshida, is not related to Yoshida Kotaro, Samurai extraordinary."



Please.

Yoshida Kotaro was born in 1883, some 15 years after the samurai class was abolished. And "samurai extraordinary"? Does he mean that Yoshida was a fantastic accountant? A wonderfully skilled bureaucrat? That's really what most samurai were during, and especially near the end of the Edo period.

This is not to diminish Yoshida's skills or abilities, but to point out that such comments don't reflect anything other than a romanticised image of both the samurai and Yoshida, as he was not a samurai at all.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Debate about what constitutes a samurai is not related to whether or not the sword techniques taught in daito ryu had a samurai lineage, which I think we've all agreed is the case.



The methods that came from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, yeah.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 22, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> The methods that came from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, yeah.


Can we all agree that Takeda's sword work had a samurai lineage?  This whole debate about samurai goes back to Master Cole's asking if the sword work in Hapkido 'came from the samurai.'  

We already covered that this means, 'did it have a samurai lineage?' and already covered that if it comes from DRAJJ, then yes it would.  

So the question really is whether or not hapkido sword work really has its roots in Ono-ha Itto Ryu, not whether or not Takeda qualified as a samurai himself.


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