# saber/sword differences



## donald1 (Aug 11, 2013)

in my karate class we have been told a saber is not the same as a sword it is a big knife
what is the difference between a saber and a sword


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2013)

A saber is a curved sword. Typically single edged, one handed and with a large handguard.

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## jks9199 (Aug 11, 2013)

Very loosely speaking, sabers tended to be curved, and often designed around cavalry use.  They're a class of sword.  Swords is a big category of large bladed weapons, probably starting from 18 to 20 inches in length.  A true Bowie knife is generally hovering right around the line between sword and knife...  Within that category, you can find sabers, epee, broad swords, claymores, longswords, katanas, Burmese dhas, and lots more.  I'm sure there are others that will tear into this and really break it down...


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## arnisador (Aug 11, 2013)

In Western sport fencing, the foil and epee can only stab but the saber can slash. This is a big difference. A fencing style weapon is fine for dueling but you need a slashing weapon if you may have multiple opponents and/or ones coming from other than straight at you. But "sword" itself can mean almost anything.


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## Blindside (Aug 12, 2013)

This almost sounds like a Chinese verbiage issue where the "dao" term used referring to the "Chinese broadsword" a single edged primarily slashing weapon translates to "knife" while the "jian" translates to sword and refers to double edged straight weapons.


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## Argus (Aug 12, 2013)

arnisador said:


> In Western sport fencing, the foil and epee can only stab but the saber can slash. This is a big difference. A fencing style weapon is fine for dueling but you need a slashing weapon if you may have multiple opponents and/or ones coming from other than straight at you. But "sword" itself can mean almost anything.



If that were true, the backbone of armies throughout the millennia wouldn't have been the spear. Armies generally fought in tight formations where you don't have the space to be swinging a large sword around much, and in any case, your flanks were covered by the men to your right and your left. So really, you are only concerned with who's in front of you. 

I'm pretty sure curved swords, such as the saber, are more intended for cavalry use.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 12, 2013)

Curved blades were indeed quite common for cavalry use and have passed into historical familiarity because of such units as the Coldstream Guards or the Hussars.  But so too did straight swords see use by cavalry forces.  It's rather dependant on century and country really.

In and of themselves, sabres and hangers are not cavalry weapons per se and have often been used by other infantry units.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 12, 2013)

The differences in use of bladed weapons are myriad but the breakdown between curved, single-edged and straight, double-edged is quite marked.  

The sabre-like weapons, which also include cutlasses, tulwars, scimitars, messers/hangars and so on are typically optimised for the slashing attack, with the thrust being secondary.  The straight-swords tend to be more optimised for the thrust than the slash.  But, of course, things are never that clear cut {Yeah!  Bladed weapon pun attack !} in sword typology and useage.  You can have curved blades with the emphasis on the point and straight blades with the emphasis on the slash.  Indeed, "The point or the edge?" has been a centuries long debate amongst swordsmen when it comes to effectiveness in battle.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 12, 2013)

One important thing to bear in mind about the sword, by the way, as Argus sort of touched on above, is that when combat takes the form of serried ranks of troops in formation then the sword becomes a 'side arm'.  It was often carried by officers who were not in ranks because it is an excellent weapon for attack and defence when you have the room to swing it and manoeuvre; that is why, in part, it is the sword that symbolises power and authority rather than one of the other, more common, infantry weapons.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 12, 2013)

Here are a few videos of different styles so that the OP can get a flavour of just how broad a church the art of the sword is:

[video=youtube_share;k6BBq9zE2pY]http://youtu.be/k6BBq9zE2pY[/video]

[video=youtube_share;nv7Zz-WdXUc]http://youtu.be/nv7Zz-WdXUc[/video]

[video=youtube_share;xFiIDl_mt2c]http://youtu.be/xFiIDl_mt2c[/video]

[video=youtube_share;vFL2ghH0RLs]http://youtu.be/vFL2ghH0RLs[/video]

[video=youtube_share;o9TUxarH7ug]http://youtu.be/o9TUxarH7ug[/video]



And this has nothing to do with sword fighting 

[video=youtube_share;6ZuQpRcAvf8]http://youtu.be/6ZuQpRcAvf8[/video]


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 12, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> One important thing to bear in mind about the sword, by the way, as Argus sort of touched on above, is that when combat takes the form of serried ranks of troops in formation then the sword becomes a 'side arm'.  It was often carried by officers who were not in ranks because it is an excellent weapon for attack and defence when you have the room to swing it and manoeuvre; that is why, in part, it is the sword that symbolises power and authority rather than one of the other, more common, infantry weapons.



I remember reading an article on the study of wounds on a Japanese battle field circa 16 Century, and only 5% of all wounds, (deaths?) were the result of swords. The vast majority were arrows, stones and musket balls. One wants to stay as far away from ones enemy when one tries to kill them.


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## arnisador (Aug 12, 2013)

Argus said:


> If that were true, the backbone of armies throughout the millennia wouldn't have been the spear.



Armies are a special case. Since the context was a discussion in a karate class, I had in mind self-defense skirmishes.


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## donald1 (Aug 12, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> Here are a few videos of different styles so that the OP can get a flavour of just how broad a church the art of the sword is:
> 
> [video=youtube_share;k6BBq9zE2pY]http://youtu.be/k6BBq9zE2pY[/video]
> 
> ...



the movies truth behind the sword 1/2 and 2/2 are really interesting showing the history behind, it really is cool thing seeing different styles use different techniques like those videos


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 13, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> Here are a few videos of different styles so that the OP can get a flavour of just how broad a church the art of the sword is:
> 
> And this has nothing to do with sword fighting
> 
> [video=youtube_share;6ZuQpRcAvf8]http://youtu.be/6ZuQpRcAvf8[/video]



Wow.....
For the lack of a better word or comment...THAT was just so very s***. Truly terrible to behold. Sigh.......Twirling a sword like a baton is not sword work, Turning your back to an opponent is not sword work, gripping a sword like a baseball bat is not sword work, "cutting" with the back of the blade is not sword work, being cute forgives nothing. Mark this is why we don't get huge crowds out to iaido, real swordsmanship, is boring. Wait, wait, wait, opening, cut and kill him, wipe the blood off, put the sword away and go have beer and wings. Now between you and I, if she were Asian I may have been more forgiving


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## Argus (Aug 13, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Armies are a special case. Since the context was a discussion in a karate class, I had in mind self-defense skirmishes.



Ah, fair enough. Though, I think some might still argue the point:


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## Sukerkin (Aug 13, 2013)

Ken Morgan said:


> Wow.....
> being cute forgives nothing.



Well there goes my chance of ever getting my fifth dan then :angel: :lol:.


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 13, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> Well there goes my chance of ever getting my fifth dan then :angel: :lol:.


I've made it to fourth based solely on my cuteness. I'm suppose to grade for fifth in a few months, but I think they've caught on that I'm more troll like, than cute...


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## pgsmith (Aug 13, 2013)

Fear not gentlemen, there's always the under-the-table money to see you through!


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 13, 2013)

pgsmith said:


> Fear not gentlemen, there's always the under-the-table money to see you through!



Nah, I'm actually cute, I just didn't want my buddy Mark to feel bad about himself. Shhhhhhh...our secret OK Paul?


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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2013)

donald1 said:


> *in my karate class *we have been told a saber is not the same as a sword it is a big knife
> what is the difference between a saber and a sword



.... I think I see the problem....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 14, 2013)

donald1 said:


> in my karate class we have been told a saber is not the same as a sword it is a big knife
> what is the difference between a saber and a sword


No offense to your karate instructor, but he's seriously misinformed and is passing along bad information.

A sabre is a type of backsword, usually but not always curved, and usually single edged, though some have a false edge, sometimes a partial false edge.  I've attached a picture of a USMC sabre for reference.


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## Langenschwert (Aug 20, 2013)

Sabres are swords. Interestingly enough, the modern western sabre is in part descended from the Dussack, which is turn descended from the langes messer, which means "long knife."

-Mark


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## pgsmith (Aug 21, 2013)

Langenschwert said:


> Sabres are swords. Interestingly enough, the modern western sabre is in part descended from the Dussack, which is turn descended from the langes messer, which means "long knife."
> 
> -Mark



Seeing as how the original poster said it was from his 'karate' instructor, that is probably pretty much at the heart of his confusion. If you look at the unihan data for the Japanese kanji for the terms "ken" which is generally used to refer to a double edged sword, and "katana" which is generally used to refer to the typical single edged Japanese sword (saber), then it can get confusing to someone without access to Japanese instruction. The kanji for ken (Chinese jian) is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (although there are a couple of variations, this is the one most commonly used) and the unihan definition is sword. The kanji for katana (dao in Chinese) is 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and the unihan definition for it is knife. However, every Japanese to English dictionary will give you the word "sword" as the first definition for both kanji, although the on-line one that I always use gives additional definitions of saber and blade for 'ken', and katana and dagger for 'katana'.


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## Langenschwert (Aug 22, 2013)

pgsmith said:


> Seeing as how the original poster said it was from his 'karate' instructor, that is probably pretty much at the heart of his confusion.



Interesting. So you're saying that someone's dojo Japanese is worse than my dojo Middle High German? That's pretty cool. 

-Mark


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## pgsmith (Aug 22, 2013)

Langenschwert said:


> Interesting. So you're saying that someone's dojo Japanese is worse than my dojo Middle High German? That's pretty cool.
> 
> -Mark



  That makes me think of one new student a number of years back. I was talking about strategy, and he asked what I would do in a certain situation if I happened to be faced with a samurai from old Japan. I told him I would wait until the fellow was laughing hysterically at my poor dojo Japanese pronunciation, and then I would attack.


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## vincymull (Jul 24, 2014)

In fact there is no difference, as the sabre is simply one of many types  of sword.  The reference quoted above actually starts by saying "A  sabre is a sword.."



Sword - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Other types of sword include foil and epee used in the sport of fencing, and weapons such as the cutlass, scimitar, etc


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## Blindside (Jul 24, 2014)

vincymull said:


> Other types of sword include foil and epee used in the sport of fencing, and weapons such as the cutlass, scimitar, etc



The foil, epee, and sabre used in the sport of fencing are about as much a sword as the rattan stick I use in Kali.  They are stand-ins for blades that only sort-of/kind-of resemble their real world counterparts.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 24, 2014)

vincymull said:


> In fact there is no difference, as the sabre is simply one of many types  of sword.  The reference quoted above actually starts by saying "A  sabre is a sword.."



All sabers are swords, but not all swords are sabers. 

And it's a mistake to call a foil or epee a sword; they are not. They are vaguely sword-shaped, but they are not swords.


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