# right into the crotch



## fenglong (Feb 18, 2012)

I wonder why techniques to attack the crotch are shown so rarely, although existent. Have they even been avoided and forgotten in most MA because they are considered lame and not allowed in sparring and competition?
I personally consider them to be valuable techniques for self-defense, especially vs grappling, and defending against them should be practiced too since nobody on the streets would care where they hit you.

How do your schools/styles handle this topic?


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

We tend not to do them much because if attacking you a man will always protect that part of his anatomy, it's instinctive on their part so there's much better targets. It's also instinctive to defend for some reason lol.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 18, 2012)

True dat.  Discovered an instinctive application for crane stance when a football flew towards that area.  There are targets that work better as 'manstoppers'.


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## WC_lun (Feb 18, 2012)

The groin is a valid target in our school.  It isn't something we concentrate on, but it is on the centerline and a very sensitive part of a person's anatomy, so it IS a valid target.  I believe the reason many schools do not use groin techniques is the rise and popularity of martial sports.  Schools are training for those rule sets.  I don't have any issue with that.  We all train for different reasons...as long as you understand the training is different.


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2012)

While not a legal target in sports you will still see men defend this area. We do regard it as a proper target in SD if you have a chance to use a strike to there but there are easier targets, one shouldn't concentrate on any target in particular but be able to take advantage of any opening one gets.


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## Em MacIntosh (Feb 18, 2012)

My intepretation of the primary intended targets with the general targets in brackets. 

1. Eyes (Nose)
2. *Groin* (Knees)
3. Throat (Jaw)

I consider it an essential target with lots of tender areas around it if you miss. Also, if you look at the torso as a lever, the pelvis is the pivot point and the foot makes an excellent fulcrum.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 18, 2012)

Depends on what you mean by 'crotch'.

If you mean 'groin', then yes.  Valid target and we practice it.

If you mean 'genitals' or 'testicles', then no.  By targeting the groin, the junk gets kicked just as effectively; it's in the way.  But our goal is not to kick a guy in the wedding tackle, our goal is to collapse his pelvic bone.  That's where we are aiming and that is one of the primary targets of the first kick in Isshin-Ru, the 'mae geri' or front snap kick.

You might be surprised to find that an enraged, drunken or otherwise intoxicated man can potentially ignored what would otherwise be a devastating kick to the rubber parts.  There are even some schools of CMA (as I understand it) that practice 'Iron Crotch' techniques to be able withstand such kicks.  And frankly, if you're aiming for the junk, and you don't stop the guy with that one kick, you've just made an enemy who will not stop until he's flossing with your intestines.

Hope that answers your question.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2012)

In Wing Chun , after you kick the attacker in the groin , you don't stop to admire your handiwork.

It is used as an entry to get you safely past his kicking range so that you can get in and apply your hand techniques.

It's a bridging the gap technique , if the groin target is not available then a low heel kick to the shin/knee is used , for longer range a charging knee is used.

All of these techniques are immediately followed by hand striking as soon as your kicking foot hits the floor , it is unbroken chain of movement that takes full advantage of using the power generated by moving your mass forward as you kick.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 18, 2012)

I was kicked straight up into the Groin once.
It did nothing - However, I was surprised for a second, so thats something.

As such, nowadays I only focus on Hand Strikes to the Groin.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Feb 18, 2012)

Besides the sport aspect which you mentioned and the fact that it is hard to get a partner to train with full contact, there is another practical aspect to kicks to the groin in a self defense situation that bears mentioning.

Take someone doing a classic slow overhand knife attack or even a big haymaker, in both situations, in order to hit the crotch you must lean back off of your base in order to get the foot squarely into the crotch.  It seems like in that situation it would be an obvious target, but if the person is stretching forward for a strike, the nuts are surprisingly hard to hit.


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## billc (Feb 18, 2012)

They aren't as effective because for generations of fighting, they have been a target, and their is an intense personal interest in most males to protect that area.  Most criminals have had encounters with violence before they bother you, and that experience is just as valid as when you go to your school to train.  They know where the sensitive areas are and are ready to exploit yours as well.


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## shesulsa (Feb 18, 2012)

I've seen men get an adrenaline dump and become enraged when struck there. I understand the pain relay can be as long as 8 seconds. A lot can happen in 8 seconds. While it is still a target, it is NOT a primary target for me, rather an opportune one.


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## seasoned (Feb 18, 2012)

In GoJu, what appears to be a front kick with the heel, is at times an upward toe kick angling up between the legs, and targeting the area where the testicles retract into. When targeting the testicles, a front snap kick delivered with a quick knee action works well. In a grappling situation the groin is accessible with hand strikes and is an easy target standing or on the ground. When teaching a 6-8 week self defense class, I will teach the below targets by number.
(1) Ears
(2) eyes 
(3) nose
(4) throat
(5) solar plexus
(6) ribs
(7) groin
(8) knees
(9) Their instep with a stomp kick

I always found the above very easy to teach to beginners in a 6-8 week self defense class. No blocks, strikes start high and progress down the body. 

A hand cupping ear strike (1) leads into the thumb gouge (2).
While the palm strike (3) rocks the head back opening up the throat (4).

The groin can be hit from many different angles. If your sitting and their standing and in close to you, they present a very open target with their groin. 
If your on the ground and their over you, everyone targets the head, but, the groin is very easy to hit.

Just some quick thoughts on techniques I have taught over the years using the groin as a very value rich target.


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## David43515 (Feb 19, 2012)

I use groin strikes as parts of combinations, but never a a first shot because it`s too easy to defend. Also like Bill mentioned, my goal isn`t to mash the guy`s wobbly bits,it`s to move his pelvis or break down his structual balance (either by impact or pain makes no difference). It`s no different than moving his head or shoulder girdle. If I get the added benefit of alot of pain that`s great.....but it`s not the goal.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 20, 2012)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Besides the sport aspect which you mentioned and the fact that it is hard to get a partner to train with full contact, there is another practical aspect to kicks to the groin in a self defense situation that bears mentioning.
> 
> Take someone doing a classic slow overhand knife attack or even a big haymaker, in both situations, in order to hit the crotch you must lean back off of your base in order to get the foot squarely into the crotch.  It seems like in that situation it would be an obvious target, but if the person is stretching forward for a strike, the nuts are surprisingly hard to hit.



I was never taught to be off balance when deploying a strike or kick.  When defending either of the above, especially the knife defense, being off balance would be the last thing I would want. In the Hapkido I learned, we would normally deflect or otherwise defend an attack and then counter attack with a strike or kick of grapple.  But being off balance is always to be avoided.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 20, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Depends on what you mean by 'crotch'.
> 
> If you mean 'groin', then yes.  Valid target and we practice it.
> 
> ...



An often overlooked point.  Especially in sexual assault defense. When you attempt a kick there, if you are not successful, you have just attacked the assailant's weapon, as well as the essence of his manhood.  It will likely make your opponent even more enraged and vengeful.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 20, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> An often overlooked point.  Especially in sexual assault defense. When you attempt a kick there, if you are not successful, you have just attacked the assailant's weapon, as well as the essence of his manhood.  It will likely make your opponent even more enraged and vengeful.


I think its the thought that a kick to the groin will do the trick that is dangerous. As part of a series of strikes, the kick to the groin should be the least of his problems. That is how "you" get away.
Sean


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2012)

fenglong said:


> I wonder why techniques to attack the crotch are shown so rarely, although existent. Have they even been avoided and forgotten in most MA because they are considered lame and not allowed in sparring and competition?
> I personally consider them to be valuable techniques for self-defense, especially vs grappling, and defending against them should be practiced too since nobody on the streets would care where they hit you.
> 
> How do your schools/styles handle this topic?



Certainly a valid target IMO.  I've seen people hit there hard, and dropped.  I've also seen a lighter hit, and while it does get a reaction, its not one that stopped the person.  I think alot of the time, people tend to disregard them, because they feel its an area easily protected, that it wont drop the guy, etc.  Personally, as long as it gets a reaction, that works for me.  It gets a reaction so you can now set up something else, then another move, then another, and so on.  No, I dont think that it should be looked at as the magical 1 shot 1 kill move.


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## Buka (Feb 20, 2012)

A lot of men have been conditioned to believe that a strike to the groin will disable them. Sometimes it will, but most times it will not. Hurt, sure, but disable - like a shock to the lower sternum - not like that, no. I fear a grab more than a kick. But at the same time, that has not proved to be a viable defense while grappling in self defense.

In the seventies,  the groin was a legal target area in open Karate competition. Most fighters had a good snapping front roundhouse kick for that opening.  Many had a good drop side kick to counter a big kick, often picking up the kicker off his feet so the judges could see it. I never saw it result in an injury. Tournaments outlawed the groin as a target somewhere around 1980. 

I think having it as a target area helped kickers become better kickers. You had to protect it. You had to have better timing, and retract your kick quicker. I used to tell my male students, "You want to see how open you are when you throw a head kick? After you shower, go into the privacy of your room and throw a head kick in front of a full length mirror, naked. Then tell me you don't need work in retracting your kicks."

I still teach and use the groin as a target while sparring. But my students, who have gone on to be instructors and better martial artists than I am, do not. Ah well, they probably know better than I.


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## chinto (Feb 20, 2012)

both styles of Okinawan Karate I study teach the groin attack along with the other vitals. we also practice it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2012)

http://www.shilongpang.bigcartel.com/product/team-iron-crotch


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## Cyriacus (Feb 20, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> http://www.shilongpang.bigcartel.com/product/team-iron-crotch
> 
> View attachment 16114


Here was Me about to link a Superserious Science show thingy about someone being lifted off the ground by a groin kick then just standing there unphased, then You Anticipated My Attack, Blocked, Countered, and Finished in this one fell swoop.

Bravo Bill.


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## MPC1257 (Feb 20, 2012)

We use the crotch strike as part of our close range defense in Kun Tao.  It is used as a secondary strike and in some cases as a diversionary strike.  We mostly use an open hand strike and then continue on to other strikes.  At no time do we assume that only this strike will stop anyone, male or female.  As others have posted, the body was designed to take shots there and delay the reaction to the strike for a while.  That doen't mean that it shouldn't be used, just not depended on to stop anyone.


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## WingChunIan (Feb 20, 2012)

what a load of bo***cks......sorry couldn't resist
the groin is a viable target but most folks nowadays realise that its value as a target is overstated. Every male on the planet instinctively covers their groin so the chances of a successful strike are minimal and the pain numbing effects of adrenalin, alcohol and recreational white powder make it unlikely that you'll stop someone in their tracks. However it is still a valid target and the mere act of moving towards the groin is normally enough to elicit a response. At range it can bring the hands down or the head forward, whilst in clinch range it can be useful for creating a bit of space. Grab for a person's groin (male or female) in an agressive way and the natural response is to pull away which can be just enough room to get your hands free or body turned etc.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 20, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Here was Me about to link a Superserious Science show thingy about someone being lifted off the ground by a groin kick then just standing there unphased, then You Anticipated My Attack, Blocked, Countered, and Finished in this one fell swoop.
> 
> Bravo Bill.



You mean this one?.....




Just 5 Years of 'combat ki' training and 1 x pair iron undies required.


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## seasoned (Feb 20, 2012)

Just to add a quick note, over 45 years I have attended and judge at many many tournaments. I have been on the giving end, as well as the receiving end of a misguided "right into the crotch" technique. They don't make it mandatory for groin protection for nothing. I've seen many a person hit the deck and not get up for a while, which made me a believer.
Some here have said that the groin is hard to hit because it is so well protected. I will humbly disagree. A well executed front snap kick has a lot of power and speed. 

I would not stake my life on it, but what technique would you anyway. A front kick anywhere in the pelvic griddle area will bring someone into a bent over position very fast leaving them very vulnerable for what ever...................


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## WC_lun (Feb 20, 2012)

No strike anywhere should be relied on to stop an attacker.  To do so is niave.  Just as bad an idea is to limit your options, deciding that a groin strike is never effective so those techniques are never taught.  Niether approach is valid when it comes to actual self defense training.


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## seasoned (Feb 20, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> No strike anywhere should be relied on to stop an attacker.  To do so is niave.  Just as bad an idea is to limit your options, deciding that a groin strike is never effective so those techniques are never taught.  Niether approach is valid when it comes to actual self defense training.


Exactly, once you have decided to attack,it is sustained, with no let up, until the opponent is down and out...........


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## chinto (Feb 22, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Just to add a quick note, over 45 years I have attended and judge at many many tournaments. I have been on the giving end, as well as the receiving end of a misguided "right into the crotch" technique. They don't make it mandatory for groin protection for nothing. I've seen many a person hit the deck and not get up for a while, which made me a believer.
> Some here have said that the groin is hard to hit because it is so well protected. I will humbly disagree. A well executed front snap kick has a lot of power and speed.
> 
> I would not stake my life on it, but what technique would you anyway. A front kick anywhere in the pelvic griddle area will bring someone into a bent over position very fast leaving them very vulnerable for what ever...................



  Afront snap kick to the pelvic girdle will snap the pelvic girdle if you do it right. snap that pelvic girdle and they fall down and CAN NOT GET UP!!   with a snapped pelvic girdle the pelvis will not be stable or able to allow that person to stand! I do not care how tough you are, if that is snapped, you can not stand!
A good front snap kick to the groin may very well put them down hard, and if it does not will distract them as you close and get really serious about dispatching this attacker.


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## seasoned (Feb 22, 2012)

chinto said:


> Afront snap kick to the pelvic girdle will snap the pelvic girdle if you do it right. snap that pelvic girdle and they fall down and CAN NOT GET UP!!   with a snapped pelvic girdle the pelvis will not be stable or able to allow that person to stand! I do not care how tough you are, if that is snapped, you can not stand!
> A good front snap kick to the groin may very well put them down hard, and if it does not will distract them as you close and get really serious about dispatching this attacker.


Great add on's.............


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## shesulsa (Feb 22, 2012)

It should be noted that pelvic fractures are uncommon and usually require *significant* force.


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## MJS (Feb 22, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Just to add a quick note, over 45 years I have attended and judge at many many tournaments. I have been on the giving end, as well as the receiving end of a misguided "right into the crotch" technique. They don't make it mandatory for groin protection for nothing. I've seen many a person hit the deck and not get up for a while, which made me a believer.
> Some here have said that the groin is hard to hit because it is so well protected. I will humbly disagree. A well executed front snap kick has a lot of power and speed.
> 
> I would not stake my life on it, but what technique would you anyway. A front kick anywhere in the pelvic griddle area will bring someone into a bent over position very fast leaving them very vulnerable for what ever...................



Funny you should mention this.  This past Dec., while at a Kyokushin belt test, a brown and black belt were sparring.  The brown belt ate a kick to the groin which did drop him.  It was a spinning kick that, as far as I could tell, was intended for the stomach, however, it went a tad bit lower...lol.  

Given the high ranks, I'd say that the adrenaline was flowing very high that day.  So yes, I agree with your assessment.


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## seasoned (Feb 22, 2012)

MJS said:


> Funny you should mention this.  This past Dec., while at a Kyokushin belt test, a brown and black belt were sparring.  The brown belt ate a kick to the groin which did drop him.  It was a spinning kick that, as far as I could tell, was intended for the stomach, however, it went a tad bit lower...lol.
> 
> Given the high ranks, I'd say that the adrenaline was flowing very high that day.  So yes, I agree with your assessment.


It's funny that you mention this. In my hay day I hit this guy with a side kick which he redirected into his own hip. He went down like a ton of bricks, and had to be helped out of the ring. That is not an area I would have ever considered as a target, but down he went. 
My instructor was an old school marine who used to always say " the only secret to karate is, you gotta hit um hard".
Boy I sure miss him, may he RIP. :asian:


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## Em MacIntosh (Feb 24, 2012)

In the Yoseikan (Chito-Ryu) free sparring was uncommon but when we did it we did it with bogu and face shield and it was always full contact.  I squared up with one of my sensei, we gauged "energy" and I struck out (pardon the pun) with a lovely sidekick...answered immediately by a back kick.  His heel hit me square in the pelvis just below the junk and I flew a good ten feet before I landed and slid into the bench.  Everyone ran to my aid.  One of the luckiest moments of my life as I wasn't wearing a cup.  I've developed a lot of respect for the back kick.

I sat out for about ten minutes and was sore but I rejoined the class.  One of the hardest hits I've ever taken and I could've been ready immediately if it was necessary.  One hit can never be assumed to be effective on its own.


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## Zenjael (Mar 15, 2012)

Executing them on your classmates tends to make people not want to spar with you.


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## Grasshopper22 (Apr 11, 2012)

Because this technique wouldn't work as effectively if you got attacked by a female.


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## mook jong man (Apr 12, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Because this technique wouldn't work as effectively if you got attacked by a female.



Not having external genitalia does not make you immune to the impact of a full force kick to the groin , it just means that it doesn't have to go through any testicles first.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 12, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Because this technique wouldn't work as effectively if you got attacked by a female.


Think again, My Good Man.
If You need Me to, I can try and drag up some Videos of Females being kicked in the groin, and being dropped on the spot in pain.


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## frank raud (Apr 12, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> Because this technique wouldn't work as effectively if you got attacked by a female.



Tactfully I ask, do you have much real world experience with women?  You dont think it is a sensitive area on females?


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## Kenlee25 (Apr 12, 2012)

as far as I can tell, it's a very sensitive area on everyone, but due to the contraction of the scrotom literally into you as well as the sensitivity, it hurts even more for men and requires less force to do so. But it stil hurts alot to women.

I heard that a man recieving a full force kick to the groin feels pain comparible to giving birth ( you just feel it in a different way...you obviously aren't having to push out a baby ). It's definately a valid target.

the way I see it, the groin should only be struck by three methods. A) using a knee strike or bent front kick while in close range, B) punching/palm striking/squeezing it again while in close range or during a strikeing combo or even as a mid range counter, and C) Front kick ONLY AFTER DISTRACTING THEM FIRST. AKA: punch em in the face.

Also, one can use the innate male response to protect that area to your advantage. Kick at the area with no intention of making contact ( just enough to make it look real ) and then go in while they are distracted. That second or so that they are distracted may give you the chance to punch or grab their head and bring them in for a knee to the face or elbow or what have you


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