# why so many seem to dislike MMA



## lonewolfofmibu

I think many people are against MMA for a few reasons. 
I think the first is that people are judgeing MMA soley by what some people in the UFC and other federations are doing, these people are highly paid athletes and it sad that the sport gets blamed for the mistakes they make. (no one blames basketball or football or baseball for steriod abuse or rape) 
second I think that to many people are aren't forming there own opinions about MMA, they are going off of what their master's basis, many times it's hard to not listen to what your master has to say.
and lastly I think that many people don't like it because it is new and it seems that no martial art was liked when it was new 
what does everyone else think


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## MA-Caver

lonewolfofmibu said:


> I think many people are against MMA for a few reasons.
> I think the first is that people are judgeing MMA soley by what some people in the UFC and other federations are doing, these people are highly paid athletes and it sad that the sport gets blamed for the mistakes they make. (no one blames basketball or football or baseball for steriod abuse or rape)
> second I think that to many people are aren't forming there own opinions about MMA, they are going off of what their master's basis, many times it's hard to not listen to what your master has to say.
> and lastly I think that many people don't like it because it is new and it seems that no martial art was liked when it was new
> what does everyone else think


First off you're sadly mistaken (or misquoting yourself) that no-one blames base/foot/basket ball for steroid or rape problems among the athletes. Keeping up with the news should bring you up to speed. 

Second, I've no problem with the ART itself. To me (and it's just my opinion) MMA is nothing more than a version of JKD. Mixed or Modern could fill in the first "M" of the acronym. It's the cage fighting that I find barbaric and gladiatorial in it's presentation and execution. Two men placed in a no-escape pen and fighting til one of them is senseless or counted out... after being pummeled to pieces. Boxing was a more civilized version of barbarity and IMO just as bad. 
A Martial Art is for defense not offense. The hype that goes around MMA is almost like the *ahem* professional wrestling programs you get on TV, just not as ridiculous (yet). 
I've only glanced at a few televised MMA fights or watched KO clips on YouTube ... were I a sifu/instructor/whatever... I too would be biased and upfront with my students that what is being shown on TV is NOT a Martial Arts competition. 

just my two bits
:asian:


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## Wey

I agree with you for the most part. Theres a good chance that the majority of martial artists that dislike "MMA" feel that way because of their teacher or peers. Others may not like it because martial arts are supposed to be for self-defense, and having MMA practitioners doing it to get paid seems somewhat out of line. Within that, I think some people may be mad because MMA doesn't allow every technique imaginable and some people think/believe/know that if the professionals got into a street fight with a traditional martial artists, the MMA practitioner would get worked. A majority of hate comes from peoples' egos, with this being one of the prime examples.

Personally I don't have a problem with MMA. I've considered hopping in the ring, and I may still do it.


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## Andrew Green

MA-Caver said:


> Second, I've no problem with the ART itself. To me (and it's just my opinion) MMA is nothing more than a version of JKD. Mixed or Modern could fill in the first "M" of the acronym. It's the cage fighting that I find barbaric and gladiatorial in it's presentation and execution. Two men placed in a no-escape pen and fighting til one of them is senseless or counted out... after being pummeled to pieces. Boxing was a more civilized version of barbarity and IMO just as bad.



Boxing involves far more blows to the head, and a expectation that fighters continue for longer after sustaining them.

There is not counting out in MMA, if you are out, you are out.  No 10-count, no standing 8, nothing.  As soon as you are out the fight is over you are not expected to gather your sense and jump back in after a 8 or 10 count.



> A Martial Art is for defense not offense. The hype that goes around MMA is almost like the *ahem* professional wrestling programs you get on TV, just not as ridiculous (yet).



Martial arts have been being used as sport for as long as we have recorded history, you could even make a case that organized sports evolved out of martial arts.  The very first Olympic event was a foot race, in full battle armor.




> I've only glanced at a few televised MMA fights or watched KO clips on YouTube ... were I a sifu/instructor/whatever... I too would be biased and upfront with my students that what is being shown on TV is NOT a Martial Arts competition.
> 
> just my two bits
> :asian:



So what is?  Stylistic dances in your PJ's?


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## MJS

lonewolfofmibu said:


> I think many people are against MMA for a few reasons.
> I think the first is that people are judgeing MMA soley by what some people in the UFC and other federations are doing, these people are highly paid athletes and it sad that the sport gets blamed for the mistakes they make. (no one blames basketball or football or baseball for steriod abuse or rape)
> second I think that to many people are aren't forming there own opinions about MMA, they are going off of what their master's basis, many times it's hard to not listen to what your master has to say.
> and lastly I think that many people don't like it because it is new and it seems that no martial art was liked when it was new
> what does everyone else think


 
The following is just my opinion.  I think that a very large portion of the non martial arts public is clueless as to anything MA related, in addition to what they claim to supposedly know, not being 100% accurate either.  What people fail to understand is the martial arts has contact, and it has a very rough side to it as well.  I've been training for 20+yrs, and I've seen many people cringe at the thought of anything violent.  Violent can range from hitting someone harder than a tap, biting, groin shots, eye shots, etc.  IMO, the arts were created for SD.  Sadly today, thats not always the focus and people are afraid of contact any harder than a fly landing on them.

How does this relate to MMA?  You have people who view MMA as 2 bloodthristy guys beating the living **** out of each other.  This simply isn't the case, and if we were to compare early UFCs, to what we see today, we should see 2 different events.  The fighter safety is much greater than what we used to see.  I can recall many times where people complained that the fights were stopped too soon, and who knows, maybe they were, but compared to early fights, its very different.  

As for people listening/not listening to what their "Master" tells them....I listen to what my teachers have to say, however, I form my own opinions on things.  This isn't some cult.  If one of my teachers doesn't care for MMA (which BTW, they all like it ) then thats fine...what I do, on my own, in my own house, is my business.  Tradition or not, the day that one of my teachers tries to dictate my life, is the day that I no longer train at that school.  

IMHO, I think that MMA is a good thing...to a point.  Let me explain.  Its good because I feel that it opened the eyes of alot of people.  People who thought their art was complete, were taken by surprise, when they realized they were like a fish out of water once they got taken down.  And yes, I know, people talk about eye gouges, etc, but while those are good tools, I feel that those are not or should not be the only answers.  Why?  Because people feel thats their plan b, but when b fails and they dont have a c, d, or e, then what?  

I feel that its bad, and I suppose we could use the "1 bad apple spoiles the bunch" saying, in that many MMA people feel that what they do is the end all, be all of training.  Again, not only is this not the case, but it makes ALL MMA people look bad, in addition to giving a sour taste to the traditional people.


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## ap Oweyn

I think that different forums have a different level of receptivity to MMA.  Which is obviously a generalized statement.  I'm talking overall trends here.  On some sites, the overall trend may reflect less interest in MMA.  On others, it might be more the norm.  And on some, it seems to be the only thing that gets any respect at all.

None of which is especially enlightening.

I disagree that MMA is gladiatorial. Gladiatorial matches were often elaborate executions. But even those that were set up to be fair were _to the death_. I think that there's an inescapable difference between that and _to the... unable or unwilling to continue_.  Even in the case of knockouts, the loser is usually back on his feet before the winner is announced.  He was incapacitated.  Not killed.  That's a fairly significant distinction.

I think that a comparison to Greek pankration is more apt.  People talk about the MMA format as though it were a new development.  But it's actually a ridiculously old presentation of martial arts in the Western tradition.  Crosstraining in boxing and wrestling.  Competing for an audience.  Being awarded with cash and trophies.  Being honoured and celebrated with statues and other representations.  It's all there in our history.  

Then there's the idea that MMA is fueled purely by ego.  This makes zero sense to me.  What's _more likely_ to keep your ego going?  Competing in a public arena when you _know_, beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt, that you could very well lose this match?  (Given that the guy across the ring from you is also a well-trained, well-conditioned combat athlete)  Or wearing a black belt, being bowed to by wide-eyed adherents to your school, and not being put in harm's way on a regular basis?

And I ask that question as a member of Group B.  _Not_ Group A.

Then there's the argument that MMA isn't reality.  Well... no.  Training in general isn't reality.  It's simply a question of where your abstraction comes in.  Reality-based practitioners aren't _actually_ gouging eyes or crushing windpipes.  So they're abstracting.  Just in a different way.

Besides, MMA often isn't looking to answer the larger, more abstract (and, likely, impossible to answer) question about reality.  It's concerning itself with the far more concrete (and in some ways more useful) question, "what can I do with this opponent in front of me _right now_?)

I'm a big fan of the format.  Even though I don't have a competitive bone in my body.  To my mind, anyone can benefit from looking at the fundamental methodologies and thought process that underpin the MMA approach.  Even if they're taking them back to another style with different priorities.

Baby.  Bath water.  Don't confuse the two.


Stuart


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## Xue Sheng

For the same reason so many dislike any other MA.

And for the record, I don't dislike MMA. Actually I am rather impressed by many MMA people's dedication to training


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## J Ellis

There have already been some excellent points made on this thread.

MMA is a sport. As such it is no better or worse than many other popular contact sports. It has some tremendous benefits for modern martial arts practitioners, and I think it has some potential downsides for public perception of the arts as well.

My biggest complaint about it is not inherent to the sport at all. What I dislike is the thug mentality that many of the athletes appear to have. This is not unique to MMA. You can see the same kind of attitudes in the NBA and NFL. I don't like it in those sports, and I don't like it in MMA.

I still enjoy watching these sports when opportunity permits, even if I don't always like the culture and attitudes that seem increasingly prevalent within them.

Joel


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## Tez3

J Ellis said:


> There have already been some excellent points made on this thread.
> 
> MMA is a sport. As such it is no better or worse than many other popular contact sports. It has some tremendous benefits for modern martial arts practitioners, and I think it has some potential downsides for public perception of the arts as well.
> 
> My biggest complaint about it is not inherent to the sport at all. What I dislike is the thug mentality that many of the athletes appear to have. This is not unique to MMA. You can see the same kind of attitudes in the NBA and NFL. I don't like it in those sports, and I don't like it in MMA.
> 
> I still enjoy watching these sports when opportunity permits, even if I don't always like the culture and attitudes that seem increasingly prevalent within them.
> 
> Joel


 
Good post but I would take issue with just one part of it. You said you don't like the attitudes displayed in the NBA and NFL, naming specific organisations but then mention MMA which isn't an organisaton. My point is that outside specific organisations the grass roots attitudes in all of these sports is different as it is in MMA. the attitudes displayed which I also dislike come from the big for-profit organisations whose interests lie in hypeing up their 'staff' to increase profits. In MMA the main culprit is the UFC, outside this and a couple of other big companies you will find the attitudes very different and the atmosphere and behaviour of both fans and fighters much more like traditional martial arts.
The culture and attitudes in the 'normal' MMA are different from that displayed in the UFC, one of the reasons I get annoyed when people judge MMA purely from what they see on TUF and UFC. 
The UFC promotes it's own brand of MMA, it isn't the whole or even typical of the MMA that people train and fight  everyday around the rest of the world.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Unfrotunately Tez3 the face of professional MMA is the UFC as they are the super organization of mixed martial arts at this point.  So all organizatioins rightly or wrongly are judged by their standards.

Having said that I really enjoy watching mma/ufc events though I do not pay for any of them. (no I just wait a bit and watch for free  )  I can respect the athletes hard work and dedication and disregard the hyping of fights, etc.  Athletes behave on a whole pretty well though there are exceptions in every sport!  It really is no different in the UFC or any MMA event for that matter.  Enjoy their performance but do not make them a role model for personal behavior!


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## Andrew Green

This has been circulating a little, as a contrast to the UFC pre-fight / post-fight stuff:

Pre fight
[yt]DiZzNXpQsjo[/yt]

Post Fight

[yt]XlwIh-Txgag[/yt]

The smack talk is not always there, and I imagine most of the time its just for show.  They need to put together promo videos that sell the fight, having guys talk trash  is a pretty easy and time tested way of selling a fight.


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## zDom

The thug culture is what I object to as well. I don't like thuggery in the UFC, the NFL, the NBA or anywhere else I see it.

I don't like seeing those with the thug mentality trained in effective technique. It makes it more likely that I or a fellow student will run into a self-defense situation where we face a trained fighter using smart techniques. I much preferred them having a false confidence in windmill and John Wayne haymakers punching.

It kinda bugs me when some guy in a TapouT shirt and sock cap holds forth on how the BJJ armbar he learned from a guy who got his instructor certification during a weekend seminar four months ago is better than the very same armbar I learned and have been training since a year before UFC 1 aired simply because hapkido is a TMA and he once saw a hapkido guy get pawned in the cage.

But then I do watch UFC and local MMA competitions semi-regularly. I appreciate someone like GSP who, whenever I've seen him, displays admirable sportsmanship in addition to some solid, well-rounded fighting skills.

And I respect anyone who trains hard  be it a football player, an MMA enthusiast, a Kenpo stylist or an Olympic ice skater.

Respect begets respect; disrespect begets disrespect.


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## Tez3

zDom said:


> The thug culture is what I object to as well. I don't like thuggery in the UFC, the NFL, the NBA or anywhere else I see it.
> 
> I don't like seeing those with the thug mentality trained in effective technique. It makes it more likely that I or a fellow student will run into a self-defense situation where we face a trained fighter using smart techniques. I much preferred them having a false confidence in windmill and John Wayne haymakers punching.
> 
> It kinda bugs me when some guy in a TapouT shirt and sock cap holds forth on how the BJJ armbar he learned from a guy who got his instructor certification during a weekend seminar four months ago is better than the very same armbar I learned and have been training since a year before UFC 1 aired simply because hapkido is a TMA and he once saw a hapkido guy get pawned in the cage.
> 
> But then I do watch UFC and local MMA competitions semi-regularly. I appreciate someone like GSP who, whenever I've seen him, displays admirable sportsmanship in addition to some solid, well-rounded fighting skills.
> 
> And I respect anyone who trains hard  be it a football player, an MMA enthusiast, a Kenpo stylist or an Olympic ice skater.
> 
> Respect begets respect; disrespect begets disrespect.


 
Ah GSP... be still my beating heart lol!

He was over here the other week cornering Tom Watson at the BAMMA fight night,  a very nice man as well as being sex on legs!  Sorry, will compose myself now.

The vast majority of MMA fighters I know are in his mould not the thug camp thankfully, sadly though I suppose as has been said the UFC is the face of American MMA and is exporting it's brand worldwide a la MacDs, Burger King etc etc. Though here it's ticket sales don't yet match home grown events, thats mostly because people want to support fighters they know, that will change as more British fighters come under UFC contracts but hopefully too you will see some more old fashioned martial arts behaviour from them, at least I'm hoping its going to work that way. As the UFC takes on more non Americans it may find itself toning down the smack talk for the European market, more so perhaps for the Australians, Aussies will laugh buckets at people trying to smack talk in the land of the legendary sledgers!


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## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> As the UFC takes on more non Americans it may find itself toning down the smack talk for the European market, more so perhaps for the Australians, Aussies will laugh buckets at people trying to smack talk in the land of the legendary sledgers!



No offense intended, Tez, but the Brits in the UFC are mouthy at times too.  I won't name any names, since you likely know who they are, but let's not assume this is strictly a UFC deal.  At the very least these guys are pandering to their perceived audience even if their remarks don't reflect their true personalities.


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## Tez3

I'm not saying the Brits can't be gobby, I'm saying the UFC may want to tone it down here because it doesn't sell tickets. When a Brit fighter is mouthing off here the chorus of disapproval from his peers is enormous, people actually say they hope he gets beaten and certainly won't pay to see him. Being seen as big headed and cocky is still frowned on here and smack talking is the fastest to lose fans. We also love the under dog, the quiet man. As shown by the Dunkirk memorials here at the moment we will celebrate a noble defeat always over a win by a loud mouth.
We have always loved the Henry Coopers and not the Mohamed Alis of the world.


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## dancingalone

I am curious if the British UFC fighters are any less popular in Britain as a result of their sometimes less than sterling behavior in the UFC?  Or is it more like 'what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas'?


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## Tez3

dancingalone said:


> I am curious if the British UFC fighters are any less popular in Britain as a result of their sometimes less than sterling behavior in the UFC? Or is it more like 'what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas'?


 
Definitely less popular. There's now a good many who have gone off two fighters in particular. Though one, I have to say was never popular to start with! He's known for being arrogant and his support is/was purely for a Brit in the UFC not him personally. I've had a run in with him pre TUF days and dislike him a lot. 
It may be a national trait perhaps, look at our tennis players for example we much prefer nice guys even if they don't win! We love 'triers' and we expect them to be humble, we can't cope very well if someone wins and says it's because he's the best lol! We expect, if he wins to say, well it was the luck of the draw/the best man on the night etc. We rarely mind if people lose I suppose as long as they go down fighting! Whether thats a good thing or not I've no idea!


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## knuckleheader

Let me be on record as "I like MMA!"....:shock:


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## Kwan Jang

IMO, the sport of MMA is the closest training method that a healthy, young martial artist can safely train towards a one-on-one encounter. I think that for advanced practitioners whose bodies can handle it, this is a great tool. I also practice the FMA's as part of my training for weapons work and still utilize multiple opponent drills from my TMA (mainly Hapkido) background. There is much that is gained in the training that would be hard to gain by other methods, but it is not for everyone. There is also a lot that is sport specific that would not translate to real self defense.

On a technical standpoint, it should be noted that the VAST majority of the elite fighters have a VERY solid background in at least one discipline (usually at an exceptional level) and then developed solid skills in the other aspects outside their base. Whether that base is Judo, Sambo, BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, ect., most elite fighters have many years or decades of training on that base in addition to their cross training. It's usually not so much the high level fighters, but the fans who don't train that disrespect many base systems (those of the "other guys").

Finally, regarding the attitudes and conduct of some of the fighters. I feel the need to mention that the early UFC's used "pro wrasslin" (I use this term for WWE, ect. to distinguish it from the real sport) as a marketing model. Even today, there is a strong influence that is apparent. This is what sells tickets and helps create bigger paydays. Frank Shamrock has taught a grappling/MMA class on an average of 2x/week for the majority of the last decade. I get in there every time I go back home to train, which is usually 2-3 weeks a year. Frank "plays" the role of the "heel" in public to build the hype and the "public" Frank is not the one I know from training. I may not be a fan of this, but OTOH since this is how feeds his family, I won't begrudge him. My guess is that he's far from the only one who plays a role out there.

There ARE some jerks and hoods in the sport even on the higher levels, as I discovered sitting in the front row at the Strikeforce event in Nashville. But I have actually seen at least as much of this both in sport karate and even in the TMA's that don't compete, so this is more of a problem of human nature than of a specific sport.


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## Kyosanim

Kwan Jang said:


> IMO, the sport of MMA is the closest training method that a healthy, young martial artist can safely train towards a one-on-one encounter. I think that for advanced practitioners whose bodies can handle it, this is a great tool. I also practice the FMA's as part of my training for weapons work and still utilize multiple opponent drills from my TMA (mainly Hapkido) background. There is much that is gained in the training that would be hard to gain by other methods, but it is not for everyone. There is also a lot that is sport specific that would not translate to real self defense.
> 
> On a technical standpoint, it should be noted that the VAST majority of the elite fighters have a VERY solid background in at least one discipline (usually at an exceptional level) and then developed solid skills in the other aspects outside their base. Whether that base is Judo, Sambo, BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, ect., most elite fighters have many years or decades of training on that base in addition to their cross training. It's usually not so much the high level fighters, but the fans who don't train that disrespect many base systems (those of the "other guys").
> 
> Finally, regarding the attitudes and conduct of some of the fighters. I feel the need to mention that the early UFC's used "pro wrasslin" (I use this term for WWE, ect. to distinguish it from the real sport) as a marketing model. Even today, there is a strong influence that is apparent. This is what sells tickets and helps create bigger paydays. Frank Shamrock has taught a grappling/MMA class on an average of 2x/week for the majority of the last decade. I get in there every time I go back home to train, which is usually 2-3 weeks a year. Frank "plays" the role of the "heel" in public to build the hype and the "public" Frank is not the one I know from training. I may not be a fan of this, but OTOH since this is how feeds his family, I won't begrudge him. My guess is that he's far from the only one who plays a role out there.
> 
> There ARE some jerks and hoods in the sport even on the higher levels, as I discovered sitting in the front row at the Strikeforce event in Nashville. But I have actually seen at least as much of this both in sport karate and even in the TMA's that don't compete, so this is more of a problem of human nature than of a specific sport.




The reason people have a problem with it is because at first glance it seems very violent. I really don't think it's any different than boxing to be honest.


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## Andrew Green

Kyosanim said:


> The reason people have a problem with it is because at first glance it seems very violent. I really don't think it's any different than boxing to be honest.



Violent?  In relation to the systems that teach people to gouge eyes, strike the throat, kick the testicles, etc?

I suppose I have a different idea of what "violent" means then they do.


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## KenpoVzla

My reasons for not liking MMA were: 
1. Too much time on the ground and not enough action 
2. Calling a martial art something that seems to be missing the "art" part by a lot.

Me coming from a traditional martial arts background, it took me a long time to like MMA. I did recently get into it...my reason? I saw the video of UFC prime time with GSP and oh whao...it changed my perspective. The training and mental aspect in these fighters is top notch, especially when you have fighters that come from a traditional martial arts background.

The sport has changed a lot, and I believe nowadays UFC is really looking out for their fighters. Some fights may get really bloody, but I don't think it's the norm.

The Ultimate Fighter I also like a lot, again because, of the training and competition aspect.

I do believe the word "art" should be taken out of MMA, since 
a. It's a sport  
b. The "art" aspect is missing in the fighters, unless they come from a traditional martial arts background.


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## Tez3

KenpoVzla said:


> My reasons for not liking MMA were:
> 1. Too much time on the ground and not enough action
> 2. Calling a martial art something that seems to be missing the "art" part by a lot.
> 
> Me coming from a traditional martial arts background, it took me a long time to like MMA. I did recently get into it...my reason? I saw the video of UFC prime time with GSP and oh whao...it changed my perspective. The training and mental aspect in these fighters is top notch, especially when you have fighters that come from a traditional martial arts background.
> 
> The sport has changed a lot, and I believe nowadays UFC is really looking out for their fighters. Some fights may get really bloody, but I don't think it's the norm.
> 
> The Ultimate Fighter I also like a lot, again because, of the training and competition aspect.
> 
> I do believe the word "art" should be taken out of MMA, since
> a. It's a sport
> b. The "art" aspect is missing in the fighters, unless they come from a traditional martial arts background.


 

What is the 'art' bit then? Is it good sportsmanship? It's there, is it upright moral behaviour, it's there as much as it is any any other martial art, is it tenets of behaviour, that's there too. 

The very name Mixed Martial Arts, tells you that it's what it says it is on the tin, it's all the 'old' arts but used together in a fight.

As I've said before to the point of boredom now, judging MMA from one promotion is foolish as it doesn't give you the proper perspective. As for TUF, ugh! It's reality television, used to make money from the ads. For true MMA go find a reputable club or gym, watch MMA at the grass roots level, meet the fighters who do it for love.


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## KenpoVzla

Tez3 said:


> What is the 'art' bit then? Is it good sportsmanship? It's there, is it upright moral behaviour, it's there as much as it is any any other martial art, is it tenets of behaviour, that's there too.
> 
> The very name Mixed Martial Arts, tells you that it's what it says it is on the tin, it's all the 'old' arts but used together in a fight.
> 
> As I've said before to the point of boredom now, judging MMA from one promotion is foolish as it doesn't give you the proper perspective. As for TUF, ugh! It's reality television, used to make money from the ads. For true MMA go find a reputable club or gym, watch MMA at the grass roots level, meet the fighters who do it for love.



Well generally the art part is the forms, the non-combat part of the style.

And I do apologize, I did not know that mainstream MMA does not make good name for its "grass root level" counterpart. 

Not sure I understand your TUF rant, don't these fighters come from reputable clubs and gyms also? You're saying their fights and training are not portrayed well in the show?


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## Tez3

KenpoVzla said:


> Well generally the art part is the forms, the non-combat part of the style.
> 
> And I do apologize, I did not know that mainstream MMA does not make good name for its "grass root level" counterpart.
> 
> Not sure I understand your TUF rant, don't these fighters come from reputable clubs and gyms also? You're saying their fights and training are not portrayed well in the show?


 
Ooo! you've got me on my favourite subject lol, kata/forms/patterns. Far from being a non combat part of martial arts, these are the basis for self defence and attacking techniques I believe. I follow closely Iain Abernethy's teachings on Bunkai, I find he's absolutely spot on. The kata/forms moves show takedowns, defensive moves, kicks punches, everything you need to defend yourself. Neil Grove a fighter from here is a karateka who still does kata.
http://www.fightersonlymagazine.co.uk/news/viewarticle.php?id=1547

It's not that mainstream MMA is wrong or anything it's just that the UFC and the other promotions are very commercial with all that entails. Grass roots MMa doesn't have any real money in it ( sadly really) the UFC is a very American show, flashy, had money chucked at it and loud! Alright if you like it but it is what it is! 

I don't like TUF even though I've had mates on it. It's the way that the non fighting and training stuff is portrayed, it winds the fighters up so that they 'perform' so the TV company gets the ratings. 

Going back to the question in an earlier post about how Brits think about the badly behaved fighters, I found this .
http://www.fightersonlymagazine.co.uk/features/viewarticle.php?id=4461&offset=0


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## scottie

I like MMA but hate the UFC. I think any sport gets screwed up once you throw a lot of money into the mix and lets face it for the promoters it is all about the money. I think that within 2-5 years it will come out that DANA fixes fights. He is all about making money, and I am more than sure he will make sure that he makes it. I would rather watch WWE at least we all know that is setup from the start and the trash talking and junk is part of the show. Mixed Martial Sportist are some of the best trained athletes in the world, and they are great fighters that i would not to meet in an alley somewhere. I _*personally*_ just don't see the art of it.


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## Tez3

I think art is in the eye of the beholder. Many say boxing is an art but others don't. I think what you see as an art is probably personal to you.

I don't know though at what point fighting became an art, was it because people wanted to downplay the violence of the martial techniques to enable it to be sold to the public? If we as MMAer's do karate, Judo, Muay Thai, WC etc at what point do they stop being arts just because we use them all in the same fight? In karate katas there's takedowns, punches kicks and groundwork, yet thats still classed as an art but if I use it in MMA it's not? 

The UFC is entertaining enough but it's not the whole thing, it's not the be all and end of of MMA. Other sports have been spoilt by massive amounts of money being poured into it, MMA isn't unique in this.


----------



## MJS

Andrew Green said:


> Violent? In relation to the systems that teach people to gouge eyes, strike the throat, kick the testicles, etc?
> 
> I suppose I have a different idea of what "violent" means then they do.


 
Good point, and this is what, IMO, leads people to think that ALL martial arts are bad, violent, etc, in addition to MMA.  As I've said before, I've been teaching for quite a while, and have had people comment on some of the things that I've taught.  I try to give somewhat of a tasteful reply, rather than what I'm really thinking, that being to save their money, quit now, and take up a friggin' knitting class.


----------



## MJS

KenpoVzla said:


> My reasons for not liking MMA were:
> 1. Too much time on the ground and not enough action
> 2. Calling a martial art something that seems to be missing the "art" part by a lot.
> 
> Me coming from a traditional martial arts background, it took me a long time to like MMA. I did recently get into it...my reason? I saw the video of UFC prime time with GSP and oh whao...it changed my perspective. The training and mental aspect in these fighters is top notch, especially when you have fighters that come from a traditional martial arts background.
> 
> The sport has changed a lot, and I believe nowadays UFC is really looking out for their fighters. Some fights may get really bloody, but I don't think it's the norm.
> 
> The Ultimate Fighter I also like a lot, again because, of the training and competition aspect.
> 
> I do believe the word "art" should be taken out of MMA, since
> a. It's a sport
> b. The "art" aspect is missing in the fighters, unless they come from a traditional martial arts background.


 
To address your points above:

1) Agreed.  Remember the early UFC shows, where we'd see Royce locked in these epic, 30min battles?  Remember Royce and Dan Severn?  99% of the fight was Dan in Royces guard.  Thankfully today, and IMO, much to the dismay of some fans, the refs stand the fighters back up, which I feel is a good thing.  Of course, thats probably one of the main reasons why the Gracies have little to do with the UFC now, because really that is their game plan....take the person down, to their comfort zone, play the long, drawn out game, and go for a sub.  Imagine Royce fighting now?  

2) As I've said many times, everyone trains for their own reasons.  The art side probably doesn't fit into what everyone sees as MMA.  There isn't supposed to be 'violence' in the art side.  Personally, I dont get too hung up on the terms.  

As for your other points:

a) Correct.  

b) Many fighters have.  Machida (sp) came from a Shotokan background I believe and Chuck came from a Kempo/Kaju background.


----------



## punisher73

Tez3 said:


> Definitely less popular. There's now a good many who have gone off two fighters in particular. Though one, I have to say was never popular to start with! He's known for being arrogant and his support is/was purely for a Brit in the UFC not him personally. I've had a run in with him pre TUF days and dislike him a lot.
> It may be a national trait perhaps, look at our tennis players for example we much prefer nice guys even if they don't win! We love 'triers' and we expect them to be humble, we can't cope very well if someone wins and says it's because he's the best lol! We expect, if he wins to say, well it was the luck of the draw/the best man on the night etc. We rarely mind if people lose I suppose as long as they go down fighting! Whether thats a good thing or not I've no idea!


 

That's what was neat about watching the old PrideFC fights.  The japanese loved a fighter who fought with his all, win or lose.  It was encouraged more to go out there and leave it on the mat instead of trying for judges decisions etc.

Was the UK fighter who is not as popular now the same one who in his last fight was trying to push his head against his opponent in the staredown?  I lost respect for that fighter at that point.


----------



## punisher73

As to the original topic, I have been watching UFC since it first came out and watch other promotions as well.  I can't stand watching TUF because most of those guys are punks and bullies and just want to hurt people.  They give the professional fighters and MMA as a whole a bad image.

Around where I live, most of the guys who claim to "train in MMA" are just criminal thugs who like to fight and just fight with each other doing whatever they see on the UFC, it isn't formal training.  So what is the public perception around here of MMA?  For the uneducated not very good.  There is another group of various people at various places who train in MMA and are great guys and low key, you wouldn't know that they train in MMA.  Squeaky wheel and all....

BUT, my main gripe about MMA (image issues aside) is that here in the US, the popular belief is that any other martial arts is worthless unless you see it in the cage.  The belief in the US is that the only striking that works is boxing with some muay thai thrown in and BJJ/wrestling.  Anything else will NOT work on the street or help you defend yourself.


----------



## Tez3

punisher73 said:


> That's what was neat about watching the old PrideFC fights. The japanese loved a fighter who fought with his all, win or lose. It was encouraged more to go out there and leave it on the mat instead of trying for judges decisions etc.
> 
> _Was the UK fighter who is not as popular now the same one who in his last fight was trying to push his head against his opponent in the staredown? I lost respect for that fighter at that point_.


 
That's the one.


----------



## chaos1551

I like watching MMA.  I don't mind it being called an art; as Tez said, anything could be considered an art.

The way I saw it all go down started with boxing.  Oh, cool.  I didn't much like it but I understood it.  Then a sport came around where they'd kick each other, too.  Sweet.  So now they're punching and kicking.  Still not too interested myself.  One day, I watched a UFC fight.  Okay, so now they're wrestling with the punching and kicking.  It was a lot more interesting to me and I watch UFC fights over boxing and kickboxing any day.  

I think many dislike MMA basically because it's new.  The new guys can't shut up about it and the old timers think it's just newfandangled crap.  In time, the hype will settle down and MMA will be just as cool as anything else.  Someone earlier in this thread compared MMA to JKD.  Sure, I can see a similarity or two.

As far as TUF, I hate ALL reality shows.  Add some violence and it's just a glorified version of Jerry Springer.  Yay.


----------



## scottie

chaos1551 said:


> As far as TUF, I hate ALL reality shows. Add some violence and it's just a glorified version of Jerry Springer. Yay.


 
Now you are talking I like some Jerry makes me feel better about my family. lol!


----------



## Tez3

scottie said:


> Now you are talking I like some Jerry makes me feel better about my family. lol!


 
I know what you mean, we have a home grown version here, Jeremy Kyle, the people on there always make me feel better especially if I have a 'fat' day! The best thing about Jeremy though is he's a blue belt BJJ! I really don't like reality shows, Big Brother, I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here etc etc I don't know if you have them, hopefully not!


----------



## Mider1985

I dont dislike MMA but alot of people in MMA disrespect alot of other arts. They say oh Kali sucks, wing chun sucks, this sucks that sucks. Yet MMA is basically just that.........mixed martial arts. meaning its not an art in itself but a blend of many arts usually Muay Thai, and BJJ, or some type of grappling, boxing perhaps and stuff like that. So how can they say that other arts suck when its made out of many arts? Does MMA use kickboxing? Bruce Lee was one of the first people to bring kickboxing to the USA. Does MMA use Muay Thai? Well that art has been around WAYYY before UFC or anything like that. Does MMA have Boxing. Hell Boxing use to be done in rome and greece, they use spiked gloves called a cestus. So when i talk to a BJJ or MMA guy who only does MMA or BJJ the conversation usually gets into a thing were he or she says something offensive like wing chun sucks. or if a guy came into my gym with his karate and stuff we'd kick his ***. I think that all UFC ever did was expose peoples lack of a grappling game. BJJ is not the ultimate art even the MASTERS of BJJ look up other arts. Carlson Gracie was friends with Sam Kwok who was a master of Wing Chun he wanted to incorperate it into UFC. John Machado does Japanese Jiujitsu, Krav maga, and BJJ. Erik Paulson who is one of the most dynamic grapplers in the world is not only a BJJ black belt but trained in Jeet Kune Do, Taekwondo, Filipino Martial Arts and Silat, Catch Wrestling. 

What got me really agitated one time was when Bas Rutten said oh if Bruce Lee went into MMA he'd get his *** handed to him. I thought that was pretty insulting especially since Bruce Lee trained with or under Gene Lebel (Gene Lebel is said to have fought the first MMA fight EVER in the USA He's respected by guys like Benny the Jet, and Bas Rutten which is pretty odd since Gene Lebel and Bruce Lee were friends and Bas says well Bruce lee would get owned he'd need a year of training.) I think thats complete bull. Then he said something else once about how Aikido would never work in MMA. Yet ive seen some aikido moves used in MMA the moves you use in Aikido look simple or whatever but there designed to break your bones. and talking about breaking bones AIKIDO IS SUPPOSE TO BE A PEACEFUL ART! Aikido is actually from Aikijujutsu and Aikijutsu which are more leathal arts.

So i think that MMA guys and BJJ guys who say oh well MMA and BJJ are the ultimate martial arts need to step back and actually see if thast true. Im glad that today we have guys like the Dog Brothers who are doing MMA/BJJ combined with Kali and Silat, because they are doing the grappling part but are also still showing you that the stand up part is still very useful. a recent MMA bout was between a man named Jeff Newton and a mma fighter, Newton lost and most people said it was a ******** call cause he shouldnt have lost, anyway he fought with an MMA guy but i dont think he tapped out he dominated the mma guy in the stand up game.


----------



## Mider1985

Oh and the comment that Bas made about Bruce Lee pissed me off i almost said meh screw Bas Rutten but then i thought it through and said if i wanted to learn martial arts then id have to learn grappling or mma and there are few people better then Bas Rutten. If anyone thinks JKD sucks id just like to say that JKD guys were some of the first in SHOOTO because of there open minds


----------



## Tez3

Mider1985 said:


> Oh and the comment that Bas made about Bruce Lee pissed me off i almost said meh screw Bas Rutten but then i thought it through and said if i wanted to learn martial arts then id have to learn grappling or mma and there are few people better then Bas Rutten. If anyone thinks JKD sucks id just like to say that JKD guys were some of the first in SHOOTO because of there open minds


 
People are always saying things about other arts, MMA isn't alone in that but you can't judge anything by one person. So as Bas Rutten thinks one thing does that mean the thousands of others who do MMA think the same thing and yes I've heard plenty people say MMA sucks and Bas Rutten would get beaten if a 'real' martial artist ever got in the cage with him, it's all hype and it's all hot air. Judge a style/art properely by using your own judgement, go out and actually have a look at whats there don't rely on what a celebrity says.

Mider, if you are hanging around with people who constantly disparage other arts I suggest you find some new and better balanced friends, they don't sound like proper martial artists to me.Without seeing the 'Newton' fight there is no way of knowing what went on and how it should have turned out.


----------



## Bruno@MT

Mider1985 said:


> What got me really agitated one time was when Bas Rutten said oh if Bruce Lee went into MMA he'd get his *** handed to him. I thought that was pretty insulting especially since Bruce Lee trained with or under Gene Lebel (Gene Lebel is said to have fought the first MMA fight EVER in the USA He's respected by guys like Benny the Jet, and Bas Rutten which is pretty odd since Gene Lebel and Bruce Lee were friends and Bas says well Bruce lee would get owned he'd need a year of training.) I think thats complete bull. Then he said something else once about how Aikido would never work in MMA. Yet ive seen some aikido moves used in MMA the moves you use in Aikido look simple or whatever but there designed to break your bones. and talking about breaking bones AIKIDO IS SUPPOSE TO BE A PEACEFUL ART! Aikido is actually from Aikijujutsu and Aikijutsu which are more leathal arts.



I saw that interview, and there are a couple of points you are forgetting / not telling.

First of all, IIRC the Bruce Lee remark was due to the fact that Bruce missed good ground skills that are encouraged by the rules in most MMA orgs. Pointing this out is not disrespectful.

I also saw the aikido interview, and imo the question was asked in the context of _'will aikido work in the octagon as a sole skill'_, and not in the context of _'will aikido be a valuable addition to the other skills you need as a fighter'_. and within that context, I lean towards Bas's opinion, that aikido as a sole skill will not be enough to survive in an MMA bout.


----------



## Tez3

Bruno@MT said:


> I saw that interview, and there are a couple of points you are forgetting / not telling.
> 
> First of all, IIRC the Bruce Lee remark was due to the fact that Bruce missed good ground skills that are encouraged by the rules in most MMA orgs. Pointing this out is not disrespectful.
> 
> I also saw the aikido interview, and imo the question was asked in the context of _'will aikido work in the octagon as a sole skill'_, and not in the context of _'will aikido be a valuable addition to the other skills you need as a fighter'_. and within that context, I lean towards Bas's opinion, that aikido as a sole skill will not be enough to survive in an MMA bout.


 

Thanks Bruno! nice catch there!

I agree, Aikido as a sole skill isn't enough, no one art is hence the name Mixed Martial Arts. We do use Aiki in our training both for the cage and self defence.


As a side note, the UFC has been trying to stop the use of the words 'ultimate' and 'octagon' as they reckon it's copyright to UFC!


----------



## Bruno@MT

Fwiw, here is the Bruce lee interview, and you'll also notice that Bas never used the words '*** handed to him' as indicated above, nor did he express anything but respect for Lee.

[yt]TWZBSBab-Es[/yt]

And here is the aikido interview

[yt]-k_uumIQ1uk[/yt]


----------



## adamx

I used to be one of the biggest mma fans I watched pride and ufc and countless other promotions from 97 to around 06 now I only watch when a fav fighter is on, then once tuf came it became a fad and now everyone who thinks he's a badass trains "mma". Tuf's approach of crap tv attracted the wrong crowd. Thugs, punks, and p.o.s humans who dont give a rats *** about martial arts. It makes me sick what this sport has become. Sadly my comments will upset some of the mma noobs, they will claim im bitter and whole load of b.s. But its true, funny how most that have been fans of mma for at least 10 years tend to agree with me. It's hard to explain to a noob how good mma was before tuf. Before the fans became so anoying it turned me off from the sport.


----------



## sgtmac_46

Bruno@MT said:


> Fwiw, here is the Bruce lee interview, and you'll also notice that Bas never used the words '*** handed to him' as indicated above, nor did he express anything but respect for Lee.
> 
> [yt]TWZBSBab-Es[/yt]
> 
> And here is the aikido interview
> 
> [yt]-k_uumIQ1uk[/yt]


  Exactly.


In fact, Bas Rutten has made it very clear he got in to martial arts because of Bruce Lee. And what he said about Bruce is spot on and very much praised Bruce Lee's abilities. Why would it be disrespectful to say someone would need half a year or a year of training to compete in a profession sport they've never competed in? I don't get it.

And he's absolutely right about aikido. Don't make an art that is designed for peaceful development, take all the hard techniques out, and then try to simultaneously argue that it is super lethal. You can't have it both ways. I've trained in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu and it's not remotely the same as the watered down aikido that many folks are practicing. http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/544 

Pointing out that one thing is not the other is not being disrespectful. Bas is not wrong, and he's got the experience to speak from experience.


----------



## sgtmac_46

adamx said:


> I used to be one of the biggest mma fans I watched pride and ufc and countless other promotions from 97 to around 06 now I only watch when a fav fighter is on, then once tuf came it became a fad and now everyone who thinks he's a badass trains "mma". Tuf's approach of crap tv attracted the wrong crowd. Thugs, punks, and p.o.s humans who dont give a rats *** about martial arts. It makes me sick what this sport has become. Sadly my comments will upset some of the mma noobs, they will claim im bitter and whole load of b.s. But its true, funny how most that have been fans of mma for at least 10 years tend to agree with me. It's hard to explain to a noob how good mma was before tuf. Before the fans became so anoying it turned me off from the sport.


 
Yeah, but look, it's young male hierarchical combat, to steal a phrase from Marc Denny.  Young men bump their gums.  That's true in all professional sports where young men are paid to give vent to their testosterone, and it's why we pay them.


----------



## Andrew Green

adamx said:


> But its true, funny how most that have been fans of mma for at least 10 years tend to agree with me. It's hard to explain to a noob how good mma was before tuf. Before the fans became so anoying it turned me off from the sport.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

You where a clueless noob at one point too, we all where.  Even the guys fighting in the UFC at the beginning where, so don't try and claim you weren't 

Do you also quit liking a band if they make it big?


----------



## sgtmac_46

Andrew Green said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
> 
> You where a clueless noob at one point too, we all where. Even the guys fighting in the UFC at the beginning where, so don't try and claim you weren't
> 
> Do you also quit liking a band if they make it big?


 
Lots of folks do stop liking bands when they make it big.........often for some pretty pretentious reasons.


----------



## Bruno@MT

I actually quit liking several bands who made it big. Usually due to the fact that they changed their style to become big.

I like metal bands who use the beauty/beast setup in their vocals, preferably accompanied by violin, piano, organ, or other classical instruments among the heavy guitar / drum work. Every now and again, such a band throws out the 'beast' vocals and classical instruments, and turn into a vanilla metal band that gets accepted by enough of the populace to end up in the top 50 or whatever the local hit list is called.

Tristania, Theatre of Tragedy, Within Temptation, ...
I still like their earlier work though. Some bands stay true to themselves and make it big (Manowar, Rammstein), and those I stick with as well.


----------



## Carol

I was an avid boxing fan until 2000.  Yup, I shelled out the 40 bucks to see Mike Tyson take about a minute (or was it two?) to wipe the floor with local homie Peter McNeely.  

Trash talking? Posturing?  Anyone remember Prince Naseem Hamed being introduced by the ringside announcer as "the royalty of boxing" and entering the ring on a flying carpet?  

Bad sportsmanship?  Holyfield-Tyson II, anyone?

Ultimately, what turned me off from boxing wasn't the preening, or the bad sportsmanship.    What turned me off was the horrible judging.  1999-2000 there was a string of IMO very bad decisions, starting Holyfield-Lewis in Madison Square, and going at least through Morales-Barrera at Mandalay Bay.  Maybe it continued...I dunno.  I quit watching.  

Its my impression that there is less of this crap in UFC, Pride, and the like because the fighters have more ways of getting overpowered by their opponents, plus they have the ability to tap out, ergo, fewer fights have to go to the cards for a decision. 

Also, I think the organizers do a better job than Don King did at putting a series of good fights together.  It was maddeningly annoying to shell out a pile of cash for PPV....and find that the most enjoyable fight of the card was Butterbean!

I really, really, really hate the drama queen crap that goes on with some of these shows, but that horse left the barn when Vince McMahon showed the world how many millions could be made off "combat posturing" that is not even real.  

The lowest-common-denominator approach to broadcasting isn't anything new, nor going away anytime soon.  As distateful as it is, that's not the fault of MMA itself.


----------



## Gruenewald

Tez3 said:


> I'm not saying the Brits can't be gobby, I'm saying the UFC may want to tone it down here because it doesn't sell tickets. When a Brit fighter is mouthing off here the chorus of disapproval from his peers is enormous, people actually say they hope he gets beaten and certainly won't pay to see him. Being seen as big headed and cocky is still frowned on here and smack talking is the fastest to lose fans. We also love the under dog, the quiet man. As shown by the Dunkirk memorials here at the moment we will celebrate a noble defeat always over a win by a loud mouth.
> *We have always loved the Henry Coopers and not the Mohamed Alis of the world.*


I disagree here (not with the actual statement, just the use of Ali as an example to support it), Mohammad Ali was (and still is) one of the greatest and kindest men to have ever lived. He has done so much good, and is respected around the world. While he was fighting, yes, he had a very cocky attitude and put up a show for publicity (primarily to get him a title shot with Sonny Liston), which is what initially made him so fun to watch. However nowadays he pretty much dedicates his life to pleasing his fans and just generally making the world a better place (which might be easier if he was left with any money).


----------



## Tez3

Gruenewald said:


> I disagree here (not with the actual statement, just the use of Ali as an example to support it), Mohammad Ali was (and still is) one of the greatest and kindest men to have ever lived. He has done so much good, and is respected around the world. While he was fighting, yes, he had a very cocky attitude and put up a show for publicity (primarily to get him a title shot with Sonny Liston), which is what initially made him so fun to watch. However nowadays he pretty much dedicates his life to pleasing his fans and just generally making the world a better place (which might be easier if he was left with any money).


 

You've misunderstood here, I was saying nothing against Ali whatsoever, my point is that he was the favourite, nothing else and Cooper was the underdog and we always cheer for the underdog *because he's the* *underdog*, nothing to do with personalities.  I could have picked any combination of favourite and underdog, I chose that because the fighters are known on both sides of the Atlantic.


----------



## TheLegend731

MMA is a martial art. Now the UFC, or other similar organizations just test the practitioners' mettle. I don't see it as barbaric as the second poster made it out to be. 

People will be people, and they will want to see who can execute the art as practically and as best as possible. Thus a reasonable match is created, utilizing necessary restraints. 

The same thing would apply to tma, only they can't survive in the ring as well. A tma ring would be a way to test the practicality of their arts. However, that is if they are practical in the first place. I'm not saying they aren't, but compared to mixing some very practical arts together is only logical to create a highly effective art of fighting.

I also am guilty of this, but I find many, not all tma practitioners, even close friends to be slightly arrogant and make their own arts out to be more than they really are. I think that's why mma is given such a bad name among tma users.


----------



## Mider1985

Do i dislike MMA as a sport? No how can i dislike a sport. Nobody wrote a manual telling MMA fighters to be rude and stuck up did they? The sad problem is that you can go on youtube and see MMA coaches like Erik Paulson talk about how its not just the MMA fighters fault but its also his Coaches, Its the coaches job to instill a sense of respect because like a dojo the student has a sensei, sifu, master, guru or whatever you may call your teacher to look upto and respect. You should always respect your opponent as well. If your just a fighter and dont have no respect and dont have no background in some kinda legacy then thats all you are is a fighter and kinda a punk if you dont show respect





 
So you have guys like Matt Hughes who run around talking about oh i beat Royce Gracie but in a few years those guys cant fight anymore and there Careers are over. You go to other forums that are full of these type of guys and they put down every single traditional art you can think of. They insult every single name you can think of from Bruce Lee to Mas Oyama to Benny the Jet, to Gokor. to Rikson Gracie, even turning on there own. 

And what it all comes down to is this. MMA is not even a martial art unto its self its made up of other martial arts that have been around for so long we dont even know how old they are do we? Lets see Muah Thai thats an ancient war art and it has roots in Krabi Krabong which is also an ancient art thats weapon based. How about Boxing thats so darn old that you can go all the way to ancient Rome to hear about boxing. How about Wrestling, Grappling? You can read about all that all the way to ancient Greece and Sparta. 

When it comes down to why alot of people dont like MMA its cause of the disrespect thats shown to older arts and to people who arent in MMA.

But when i said this the other day one MMA guy came up to me and said look these other guys in MMA who bash all these arts dont respresent MMA. He said "i train in MMA but i live JKD"


----------



## TheArtofDave

I as a matter of fact enjoy TUF. Now I enjoy it even more with GSP as a coach. Its finally great to get a guy who doesn't get rattled by Koscheck who is a big jack *** disrespecting the sport by taking jabs at GSP & also giving the example for the guys he trains to do the same.

But when GSP owns Josh, all will be right.

The UFC uses aggressive marketing to promote it's events. They use the sports commissions which in California, Nevada, etc. mainly are inspired by boxing. So MMA judging is still as relatively new as the sport itself. There needs to be a panel of former MMA fighters to act as judges. This would help the judging process & keep it impartial as the fighters themselves judge the arts on display. Also martial artists can be on the panel too so it can be diverse.

I enjoy MMA. I've stated several times. That you can watch techniques work against another person. It's essentially training with a live person. Now the UFC does pre-fight comments. They can be very respectful, or they can be trash talk. It depends on the fighters. Like it was mentioned before this is just to sell the fight. After Joe Rogan raises the hand of the winner its all about respect. Because nobody wants to piss off the boss & get cut.

But often the aggressive marketing leads to the misconception about what MMA is about. MMA is a full contact contest between 2 people of different martial art background. Their coaches come up with a game plan in which either works or doesn't.

As for violence.. well that depends on how well the fighter guards, & whether he is prone to cuts. Does he cut easy, or doesn't he. Every fight is different so that is why its interesting to watch.

It doesn't appeal to everybody & that's fine. But its no different than any other contact sport. It offers more ways to end. The fighter safety is top notch & these guys defend the sport to make sure that people know hey you train to be a professional fighter. Don't just beat the **** out of each other on the streets. 

There are always exceptions but Dana White wants the sport to continue. It's not his fault he has to be an ******* to get things done. It's just how the business world works.


----------



## ForeverStudent

I have nothing against MMA.

Why should i? I look at it as fighting sport, full contact. It has rules which allowes fighters to be more violent. And that's it.


----------



## Tez3

ForeverStudent said:


> I have nothing against MMA.
> 
> Why should i? I look at it as fighting sport, full contact. It has rules which allowes fighters to be more violent. And that's it.


 

Well you seem to be putting a different view on the MMA in the Olympics thread, quite insutling you were on that!

 More violent or just more realistic than point scoring 'competitions?


----------



## BloodMoney

- Boxing is more damaging than MMA. Waaay more TKO's by ref stoppage in MMA than in Boxing, theres no count, and not a lot of KO's. And what other sport do you see guys tap out when its getting too much. MMA is more honorable, respectful and safe than many people realize. Once again, do you see two badminton players hug each other or in some cases kiss each other after a match? I think not lol

- Guess what? Douchebags are in _every_ sport. Yes theres plenty in MMA, but theres plenty of really nice guys too, I know quite a few MMA guys and there just guys. Its a mainstream sport now, its not just psycho "cagefighters". Are some a little more "self assured" than other sports people? Of course, their fighters,they cant go in there all uncertain and looking at their feet. It takes balls and self confidence to do what they do.

- _They are martial artists_. Calling them mindless brutes is incredibly ignorant. Pretty much all of the guys in UFC have a history of martial arts, A LOT of them have black belts in numerous arts, many of them having trained since a very young age. They are getting paid to do what they love, what they have done their whole life. I, like many others here, have dedicated my life to martial arts. So have these guys. Difference is they get multi million dollar contracts and I am poor as **** lol, but thats fair enough, they are professional athletes I am not. I have a lot of respect for any professional athlete given the pain and sweat they put in day after day. That goes for any sport. Its all gung fu, they all have awesome skill that took them years to build.

I think a lot of traditional martial artists are intimidated by MMA guys, and this is where a lot of aggression and negativity stems from. The reality is modern mixed martial artists can really give a traditional martial artist a run for his money, they cross train different disciplines, they train to fight other martial artists not just drunken louts in a bar. Ive seen guys get their egos damaged pretty bad by trying to match their flowery traditional system against an efficient MMA fighter, and I think this old vs new, traditional vs modern is actually quite healthy. Now days you could get accosted by a drunken idiot like any other era, except now heaps of those idiots do sports MMA and actually know how to fight somewhat. Our more trad systems need to adapt to this trend or be trampled by it.


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## Talon

I think alot of the "traditional" schools were pissed off that their cover had been blown.  I other words, people could see what was working so it was harder to convince them that doing kata for 20 years would make you able to defend yourself and therefore these "masters" would have to up their game or admit the truth.


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## Tez3

Talon said:


> I think alot of the "traditional" schools were pissed off that their cover had been blown. I other words, people could see what was working so it was harder to convince them that doing kata for 20 years would make you able to defend yourself and therefore these "masters" would have to up their game or admit the truth.


 

I think you are half right, kata works as self defence if the Bunkai is taught and taught correctly, many places just go through the motions. On seminars I've been to taken by Iain Abernethy he's often pointed out which parts of Bunkai are good for MMA or for grappling etc. Many people won't or can't understand that there's so much in kata if they chose to learn it properly and not just look at it as movements they have to do to grade. Their lost however.


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## Master Dan

lonewolfofmibu said:


> I think many people are against MMA for a few reasons.
> I think the first is that people are judgeing MMA soley by what some people in the UFC and other federations are doing, these people are highly paid athletes and it sad that the sport gets blamed for the mistakes they make. (no one blames basketball or football or baseball for steriod abuse or rape)
> second I think that to many people are aren't forming there own opinions about MMA, they are going off of what their master's basis, many times it's hard to not listen to what your master has to say.
> and lastly I think that many people don't like it because it is new and it seems that no martial art was liked when it was new
> what does everyone else think
> 
> I do not hate MMA I enjoy it especially when you pit a grapler against a striking oponent to see how it plays out. I think it has provided an outlet for TKD and others that feel they want to cross train or go for something that is more warrior like. But I do get concerned with how it effects youth watching much the way that MTV has had negative influence on youth world wide but to be fair I can remember little kids going out side after Power Rangers and kicking the crap out of each other and that is my point.
> 
> We have trouble right now adults that want to be worshiped and abuse kids for thier own ego organizing garage fights who are not even qualified instructors getting people hurt.
> 
> It has become a fad for guys to just say I am MMA. Is it a passing fad like PKA I don't think so it may be here to stay like boxing. Alot of people beat down pretty hard about MMA thinking they should be in the Olympics like they need to do the hard work for decades and such. I have changed my mind why not the Olympics is commercial enterprise they will get ten times the media coverage TKD ever has becasue they are a media commercial success now. Will it water down the fighting? possibly not Boxing was not watered down to much?
> 
> I believe the purpose of MA is to teach life skills with many benefits MMA is just not a sport for children and families but that is my opinion like some body parts everbody has one


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## Tez3

Boxing has been watered down a lot since the original boxing started, it was the introduction of the Queensberry rules that took out, the throws, kicks grappling etc.


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## Master Dan

Tez3 said:


> Boxing has been watered down a lot since the original boxing started, it was the introduction of the Queensberry rules that took out, the throws, kicks grappling etc.


 

I was thinking of Ali when he faught more recent history but you are right it seems any original sport gets modified to meet the conditions of the Olympic.


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## punisher73

punisher73 said:


> As to the original topic, I have been watching UFC since it first came out and watch other promotions as well. I can't stand watching TUF because most of those guys are punks and bullies and just want to hurt people. They give the professional fighters and MMA as a whole a bad image.
> 
> Around where I live, most of the guys who claim to "train in MMA" are just criminal thugs who like to fight and just fight with each other doing whatever they see on the UFC, it isn't formal training. So what is the public perception around here of MMA? For the uneducated not very good. There is another group of various people at various places who train in MMA and are great guys and low key, you wouldn't know that they train in MMA. Squeaky wheel and all....
> 
> BUT, my main gripe about MMA (image issues aside) is that here in the US, the popular belief is that any other martial arts is worthless unless you see it in the cage. The belief in the US is that the only striking that works is boxing with some muay thai thrown in and BJJ/wrestling. Anything else will NOT work on the street or help you defend yourself.


 
Hmmm, always have to love an anonymous neg and an "I disapprove" comment, yet no one actually posted anything that they disagreed with about this post.  I would love to discuss what you don't agree with.


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## Steve

punisher73 said:


> Hmmm, always have to love an anonymous neg and an "I disapprove" comment, yet no one actually posted anything that they disagreed with about this post.  I would love to discuss what you don't agree with.


_Edit to add:  Pet peeve of mine, too.  I think it's a little chicken**** to negative rep a post and not put your name on it.  But that's just me.  I figure, if it's not something I feel strongly enough about to put my name on it, I probably shouldn't do it._

I don't agree with it entirely, but there are points that I certainly agree with.

TUF has been a love/hate thing for me.  It really was what moved MMA to free TV and largely to where it is now, but it seems like the producers of the show have no idea why it's popular.  One of the fighters said once (I think Matt Danzig) that it took days to get healthy food, but they could call day or night and get alcohol.  Very telling.

I have said many times that, at least in my opinion, how you train is as important as what you train.  If you're pressure testing your techniques and working against actual, unpredictable resistance, I think you're going to have a lot more success than if you don't.


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## Tez3

punisher73 said:


> Hmmm, always have to love an anonymous neg and an "I disapprove" comment, yet no one actually posted anything that they disagreed with about this post. I would love to discuss what you don't agree with.


 

Know what you mean, it seems sneaky to put it anonomously when the discussion is an open one, many disagree with what I say but you'll always know it's me who said it!

I think it's sad that the perception of MMAers you have isn't a good one, if I lived closer iI'd try to show you a different view of us.


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## FieldDiscipline

Tez3 said:


> if I lived closer iI'd try to show you a different view of us.



http://image57.webshots.com/157/0/77/81/2476077810085752784LGJQkg_fs.jpg


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## Tez3

FieldDiscipline said:


> http://image57.webshots.com/157/0/77/81/2476077810085752784LGJQkg_fs.jpg


 

it says the website declined to show this page!


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## Tez3

From left to right James Saville, Lisa Higo and Abdul Mohammed.

James is an up and coming young pro fighter, Lisa fought in America winning three fights in one night to gain a world championship belt, Abdul is an ex Olympic wrestler fro Afdghanistan who settled here and is a very good pro MMA fighter.


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## Tez3

left to right again Andre Winner, Tom Blackledge and Marc Goddard.

Andre seen on TUF USA v UK, Tom from Wolfslair can be seen coaching in TUFs and Marc Goddard who refs UFC here. Both Tom and Marc fight as well.


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## Tez3

There's limits on posting photos but I wanted to show you another side of MMA, these guys aren't the thugs and bullies, they all take MMA seriously as a martial arts, all train at places which are open to anyone who shares their view of MMA.

FD, we are planning on having a fight night in Feb in the SG's gym up here for their and 4 Bde's funds, will be a good night, if you want to come up


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## punisher73

> Around where I live, most of the guys who claim to "train in MMA" are just criminal thugs who like to fight and just fight with each other doing whatever they see on the UFC, it isn't formal training. So what is the public perception around here of MMA? For the uneducated not very good. There is another group of various people at various places who train in MMA and are great guys and low key, you wouldn't know that they train in MMA. Squeaky wheel and all....


 
I don't have an overall bad view of MMA guys. Notice, I said that "most" of the guys who claim to train in MMA don't actually train in it around where I'm from, they just tell people they train it and wear all the clothing. The guys I have worked with and trained with who acutally fight in MMA (one even fought in King of the Cage a couple of times) are great guys and you wouldn't even know they train in it unless you got to know them.

There have even been a couple of local shows that I caught on the local access vision. Almost all of the guys in the show, I recognized as inmates from when I worked in the jail.  They don't actually train anywhere other than getting in bar fights, but they tell everyone that they are MMA guys.  The guys I know that actually train wouldn't enter these shows at all because it's basically a human cockfight for the spectators to see someone get beat up.

I made the distinction because most people who don't actually train in MMA or know MMA other than TUF, tend to see the bad element of it and have a bad perception of it.  I think Dana White has made a huge disservice marketing many of the UFC bouts like you would a WWE event and trying to bring in that crowd, who do just want to see someone get beat up and don't appreciate the finer details of the sport.


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## FieldDiscipline

Tez3 said:


> it says the website declined to show this page!



that is a disappointment.  Yet more humour wasted... 

Have PM'd you, btw.


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## Tez3

Tez3 said:


> I think you are half right, kata works as self defence if the Bunkai is taught and taught correctly, many places just go through the motions. On seminars I've been to taken by Iain Abernethy he's often pointed out which parts of Bunkai are good for MMA or for grappling etc. Many people won't or can't understand that there's so much in kata if they chose to learn it properly and not just look at it as movements they have to do to grade. Their lost however.


 

I got neg rep for this post with a comment 'I disapprove', dear me! 


How can you disapprove? disagree by all means but disapprove? I haven't laughed so much for ages!


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## Steve

Tez3 said:


> it says the website declined to show this page!


Worked for me when I used this link.  At least... a picture showed up.  Not sure if it was the intended one.
http://image57.webshots.com/157/0/77/81/2476077810085752784LGJQkg_fs.jpg


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## Tez3

stevebjj said:


> Worked for me when I used this link. At least... a picture showed up. Not sure if it was the intended one.
> http://image57.webshots.com/157/0/77/81/2476077810085752784LGJQkg_fs.jpg


 
Still says that the website declined to show this page, do they think I'm too young lol?


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## Steve

doesn't look like they encourage hotlinks.  Try clicking the link, then refreshing the page.


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## Tez3

stevebjj said:


> doesn't look like they encourage hotlinks. Try clicking the link, then refreshing the page.


 
cheers! that did it!

Nice one! :lfao:


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