# Tiandu Yuanshaui Wubeizhi 田都元帥的武備志



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 15, 2016)

wanted to share this illustration, from 19th century_ gongfu_ manual, created by Ryukyuans (=Okinawans) who trained in Fuzhou City, Fujian.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Dec 16, 2016)

Very interesting. Does anyone know what the letters on the picture say?


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 16, 2016)

*(on the right): 青龍出抓手勝 qinglong chu zhuashou sheng*



*Blue Dragon sends out his claws (lit. grabbing hand) and wins*



*(on the left): 丹鳳朝陽手敗 danfeng zhaoyangshou bai *

*Cinnabar (=red) Phoenix [uses the] Sun-Facing Hand (=an upwards going attack) and loses *


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 16, 2016)

*This martial manual, Bubishi, was created by Ryukyuans who trained in Fuzhou City, Fujian, in the late 19th century. “Blue Dragon sends out his claws” and “Cinnabar Phoenix [uses the] Sun-Facing Hand” are names of techniques. Does anybody know of gongfu styles which still use these names? *


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Dec 17, 2016)

I'm not familiar with the names of those attacks, but the stance and strike of the warrior on the right are very reminiscent of both fujian White Crane and Wing Chun. Both arts originated in Yongchun county, in the Fujian province around 300-350 years ago and it is well documented that Okinawan Karate was developed from those 2 arts.


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 17, 2016)

Thanks for the information Midnight-shadow.
Do the stance and strike of the right warrior have a formal name in modern White Crane and Wingchun?
I knew of White Crane influence on karate but I did not know of Wingchun's. Did anyone write about it?
As far as I know the men in the illustration were practicing some sort of internal Luohan Fist, that is, a Luohan Fist heavily influenced by White Crane. That the stance and strike resemble White Crane's makes much sense then.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Dec 17, 2016)

Dudi Nisan said:


> Thanks for the information Midnight-shadow.
> Do the stance and strike of the right warrior have a formal name in modern White Crane and Wingchun?
> I knew of White Crane influence on karate but I did not know of Wingchun's. Did anyone write about it?
> As far as I know the men in the illustration were practicing some sort of internal Luohan Fist, that is, a Luohan Fist heavily influenced by White Crane. That the stance and strike resemble White Crane's makes much sense then.



We just call it a walking or sparring stance. As shown in the picture below, the feet are shoulder width apart, knees bent with the front foot turned slightly inwards to lock the stance and provide stability. This stance forms the basis for a lot of our early forms. The strike is just an upper palm strike, and more often we use this to set up a technique called "crane drinks from the water". As you can see in the illustration, the palm strike knocks the opponent's head back as it rises up, and from here you can make the classic crane beak with your hand and stab the opponent's upturned eyes. It's a very devastating combo.  






The history of Wing Chun is widely disputed and little is documented, so whether it influenced Karate is unclear. However, both Wing Chun, White Crane and Karate share a lot of similarities in their approach, and since both White Crane and Wing Chun originated in the same part of China, it makes sense that the 3 would be connected. I know very little about Luohan Fist so I can't comment on that.


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 17, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> We just call it a walking or sparring stance. As shown in the picture below, the feet are shoulder width apart, knees bent with the front foot turned slightly inwards to lock the stance and provide stability. This stance forms the basis for a lot of our early forms. The strike is just an upper palm strike, and more often we use this to set up a technique called "crane drinks from the water". As you can see in the illustration, the palm strike knocks the opponent's head back as it rises up, and from here you can make the classic crane beak with your hand and stab the opponent's upturned eyes. It's a very devastating combo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 17, 2016)

The picture you added makes your point very clear. Comparing your picture with the stance of the right warrior, he does seem to be standing in the walking/sparring stance.  


In karate they use this stance when practicing the Sanchin (*三戰*, Chinese: _sanzhan_) kata (which also derives from White Crane, and supports your point of White Crane –karate relationships).



In Baguazhang, and in other northern styles of gongfu, this stance is used for practicing “twisting”(_ning_擰). “Twisting” refers to the activating of leg muscles and tendons, from the glutes downwards, in order to create power and support the trunk.



    The poking of the eyes seem quite brutal!





You made very good points!


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Dec 17, 2016)

Dudi Nisan said:


> The picture you added makes your point very clear. Comparing your picture with the stance of the right warrior, he does seem to be standing in the walking/sparring stance.
> 
> 
> In karate they use this stance when practicing the Sanchin (*三戰*, Chinese: _sanzhan_) kata (which also derives from White Crane, and supports your point of White Crane –karate relationships).
> ...



Thanks. yes indeed, San Zhan is largely what links karate with white crane with Sanchin being the karate version of it. We in fact have 3 San Zhan forms in our system, and all of them are done mostly from the walking stance.


----------



## greytowhite (Dec 18, 2016)

Dudi Nisan said:


> In Baguazhang, and in other northern styles of gongfu, this stance is used for practicing “twisting”(_ning_擰). “Twisting” refers to the activating of leg muscles and tendons, from the glutes downwards, in order to create power and support the trunk.



Hmm... there is some new research about the origins of Baguazhang and its connection to ceremonies devoted to the god Nezha. There is also connection between Wing Chun and the temples of Nezha. I think both were developed to be mixed martial arts from other styles. There is a lot within the Siu Nim Tao form that corresponds to certain basics of hand methods and neigong that seems to be lost in most styles extant.


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 18, 2016)

I did not really understand your point about Baguazhang and the_ ning_/twisting stance. Could you please add a few words?



For us in Baguazhang, _ning_ and _ningjin_擰勁, or twisting-power, are very important.  



About the relationships between Baguazhang and Wingchun, well, this is a complex matter, and it is complex probably because there is no direct relationship: the first is from the north and the latter from the “deep south”, in pre-modern times the distance separating these two arts made direct contact between these two arts unlikely.    



But there is a relationship nonetheless. Some of my Bagua older brothers were experts in Wingchun, they were what we call “in the books” (i.e. lineage holders). They used to say that Wingchun was “xiao Bagua”, or small Bagua. And indeed, there are many technical similarities.



A relationship might be said to exist on the level of creation too. Martial creations, as is becoming clearer and clearer, are initiated on the level of principle, not form. We believe that Dong Haichuan and Fang Qiniang, for example, taught certain principles, not “martial arts”. That is how Dong Haichuan and Fang Qiniang could take on the teaching of mature and experienced martial artists (of different styles).



So, if you meant that something in the Nezha temples inspired martial founders, i.e. made them “discover” a certain principle (or principles) and enabled them to have the sort of breakthrough Dong Haichuan and Fang Qiniang experienced, well, that’s not improbable.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2016)

IMO, the left hand that he grabs on his opponent's wrist is not proper. He should wrap his opponent's arm and control the elbow instead.

If you grab on your opponent's wrist,

- your other hand may still be too far to reach to your opponent's head.
- Since your opponent's elbow joint is free, he can drop his elbow on you.


----------



## greytowhite (Dec 19, 2016)

I practice Jiang bagua but it's not an art I particularly enjoy as I focus on our xingyi. That said, I used to practice Yin style bagua and was very interested in it. I don't buy much of the hagiographic origin stories as the Chinese were all about what was possible - "Since you can't refute it with evidence my position _could_ be correct."



Dudi Nisan said:


> So, if you meant that something in the Nezha temples inspired martial founders, i.e. made them “discover” a certain principle (or principles) and enabled them to have the sort of breakthrough Dong Haichuan and Fang Qiniang experienced, well, that’s not improbable.



I'd say that's close to what I was trying to convey. There are others doing research, from conversation with such luminaries - it's highly possible the Bagua Jiao Men religious sect/rebel group were the impetus of developing new martial arts from multiple backgrounds. Looking at the Yin baguazhang guys through Xie Peiqi (to my thinking they're closest to what may have been the original bagua) there is much influence from all kinds of other arts. They say that their Rooster system is very much an attempt at Northern Hand/Southern Foot combination. I wonder sometimes about this stuff...


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Dec 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the left hand that he grabs on his opponent's wrist is not proper. He should wrap his opponent's arm and control the elbow instead.
> 
> If you grab on your opponent's wrist,
> 
> ...



I think the idea is to grab the wrist to increase your control over their hand and then pull them towards you into your palm strike. Notice in the picture the person on the right is stepping inside the other's centre space, allowing them to put their opponent off balance as the strike comes in. Since your opponent is off-balanced, dropping their elbow isn't really going to help them too much.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I think the idea is to grab the wrist to increase your control over their hand and then pull them towards you into your palm strike. Notice in the picture the person on the right is stepping inside the other's centre space, allowing them to put their opponent off balance as the strike comes in. Since your opponent is off-balanced, dropping their elbow isn't really going to help them too much.


Both A and B are in a "symmetry" position.

- A's right leg is behind B's right leg. B's right leg is also behind A's right leg.
- A's left hand grabs on B's right wrist. B free left hand can also grab on A's right wrist.
- A's right hand pushes on B's chin. B's right hand can also push on A's chin.

In order to destroy this "symmetry". A's left arm should wrap on B's left arm instead. This way, B's left arm won't be able to push back on A's chin. The "symmetry" is then broken.

The "wrist control" should be used to set up an "elbow control". To use "wrist grab" to apply a throw is not a good idea. The distance between you and your opponent is just a bit "too far".

In the following clip, A's left hand controls on B's "elbow" and not on B's wrist.


----------



## Flying Crane (Dec 19, 2016)

When I look at the picture, it is not at all clear to me that either is in a walking stance.  Blue Pants could well be in a square horse, but the angled perspective of the artist who drew the picture makes it look like it might be a walking stance.

That's one problem with trying to interpret too much from old artwork like this.  The technical details are vague, to say the least.  I don't honestly know how anyone can positively identify what system or method that any figure in these kinds of artwork are meant to depict.  There are some clear "signature" techniques that you might recognize from a certain system, but if the artwork does not depict one of those signature moves, then it could be anything.

Regarding the walking stance and twisting, we use it quite a lot in Tibetan White Crane, and as has been mentioned, the power comes from the feet and legs and works up the torso to pivot at the waist.  The legs drive the power.


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 19, 2016)

*Gray-to-white*: you are right not “buy” hagiographic stuff. On the other hand hagiographies had important functions. For example, in traditional China it would have been considred extremely arrogant to say “I created system X”, or “I discovered principle Y”. It would have been very unfillial too. Thus, ascribing the creation of one’s system to an immortal or a deity was a mark of modesty and filial piety. It was not meant to mislead people.



*Flying-Crane*: you are right that based on an illustration alone one cannot tell what style is being demonstrated (in that illustration). However, the illustration in question is part of a manual, or even a series of manuals, which, among other things, include the founding story of White Crane Fist and Luohan Fist koujue *口訣*, or martial mnemonic rhymes. Thus, there are reasons to believe that the illustration depicts White Crane/Luohan Fist drills.



And guys, I think the discussion on martial applications is great!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2016)

Dudi Nisan said:


> Do the stance and strike of the right warrior have a formal name in modern White Crane and Wingchun?


In Shuai Chiao, it's called "shin bite". You use your shin bone to press down the inside of your opponent's leg to make his knee joint to bend side way.


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 19, 2016)

Lo and behold! One technique and so many different interpretations! We had “crane drinks from the water”, we had a modern technique by Bas Rutten, a suggestion to break the symmetry and even go with O-soto-gari (which is a great throw, and very useful), and now we even have a “shin-bite” form shuai-jiao.

The amount of interpretations way exceeds my expectations. Isn’t Chinese _gongfu_ wonderful?


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Dec 20, 2016)

Dudi Nisan said:


> Lo and behold! One technique and so many different interpretations! We had “crane drinks from the water”, we had a modern technique by Bas Rutten, a suggestion to break the symmetry and even go with O-soto-gari (which is a great throw, and very useful), and now we even have a “shin-bite” form shuai-jiao.
> 
> The amount of interpretations way exceeds my expectations. Isn’t Chinese _gongfu_ wonderful?



Wonderful or confusingly unhelpful, depending on your point of view


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 20, 2016)

Don’t worry about it! I used to feel just as you do, and I still feel so sometimes.



Three things: Coca-Cola, amazon packages and movement.



This is how I see it: we got used to the fact that when buying a can of coke in NY City, in a small stall on the shores of the Amazon or in a small store on the outskirts of the Sahara desert it will taste exactly the same. And it is the same: same can and same chemical composition.

We also like to order packages. Packages are neat, and whe can just take the whole thing back home, or even better—have the whole thing send to us.

     These expectations, of things to be the same, of things being neat and easy to carry (and by implication—to spend exactly the amount of time we expected to spend on something) we carry over even to _gongfu_; we want it to be neat, and clear, and easy to carry, and “just give to me because I am in a hurry to…”,

    But _gongfu_ isn’t like that. Life isn’t like that. We cannot expect it to be a Coca-Cola can.



    And second, if you look at _gongfu_ as a collection of techniques than you are right—it is confusing. Because in a collection each and every technique should be clearly defined.

    But if you look at _gongfu_ as systems of movement than there is nothing confusing about all those interpretations. Because when you understand the principles of movement the variations are practically endless.

   I see_ gongfu_ as systems of movement. Thus, I see all the above interpretations as being valid. Just pick the one that suits you best.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 20, 2016)

That picture shows a very important MA principle. When you control your opponent's arms, you should also control his leading leg as well.


----------



## Dudi Nisan (Dec 22, 2016)

Kung fu Wang: I like the application you posted!

Henning Wittwer informed me of a karate kata called “Pressing the throat” (“nodo-osae” 咽抑).






There are two clips on YouTube: 



 and 




This takes us back all the way to the White Crane--Karate connection Midnight-shadow pointed out


----------

