# How long should you hold a choke so as not to kill?



## Kenlee25

I'm no expert on grappling arts, but I do know how to apply a good rear naked or front guillotine choke. What I don't know is the time difference between simply "putting someone to sleep" or actually killing them. 

Now I am NOT implying that I am planning on using this move on someone any time soon, but in a self defense situation it could come in handy, and since I know how to apply one, it is best that I know the proper safety precautions.


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## Haakon

The Gracies say they teach their students no more than 10 seconds. After that point either they're out, or you don't have the choke on right and need to move to something else. There was a recent story where a teenager killed his cousin holding the choke for about 40 seconds. Chokes need to be applied for a much shorter time than most people would think.


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## frank raud

Kenlee25 said:


> I'm no expert on grappling arts, but I do know how to apply a good rear naked or front guillotine choke. What I don't know is the time difference between simply "putting someone to sleep" or actually killing them.
> 
> Now I am NOT implying that I am planning on using this move on someone any time soon, but in a self defense situation it could come in handy, and since I know how to apply one, it is best that I know the proper safety precautions.




I dont think that can be answered with any certainty. I doubt you take into account all the variables. Rear naked choke being predominantly a blood choke and a front guillotine being mainy an air choke also make a difference. I would suggest paying attention to what the other person is doing, more than how long you have held the choke. If they have stopped resisting and slipped into unconciness, release the choke. Holding it any longer may have long term consequences, both for the person being choked out and yourself.


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## seasoned

frank raud said:


> I dont think that can be answered with any certainty. I doubt you take into account all the variables. Rear naked choke being predominantly a blood choke and a front guillotine being mainy an air choke also make a difference. I would suggest paying attention to what the other person is doing, more than how long you have held the choke. If they have stopped resisting and slipped into unconciness, release the choke. Holding it any longer may have long term consequences, both for the person being choked out and yourself.


Point well taken. When they go limp is a good indication. The more they fight the more the blood flows, the sooner they go out. Pay attention to the opponent and not the time.


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## K-man

And, if you do put your training partner to sleep, make sure you place him into the recovery position on his side. This ensures his airway is clear.      :asian:


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## frank raud

I once had a training partner who refused to tapout. I choked him out, and he was spazzing and foaming at the mouth before he came to. When he said it was ok, he wanted to see how far he could take it, I quickly found a new training partner.


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## MLA9741

It takes 8-10 seconds to put a guy out...use at your own will.


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## frank raud

MLA9741 said:


> It takes 8-10 seconds to put a guy out...use at your own will.



Again the danger of working with a statement like is....you don't know. Here is a link to an experiment done by the University of Calgary. People in the experiment were deemed unconcious from 1.6 seconds to almost 10 seconds after the choke began. Others were not choked out after 20 seconds. If you held the person who was unconcious after 1.6 seconds for another 8 or 9 seconds, you could cause permanent brain damage or death. Observe the person being choked, not the stop clock.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/4/6...aked-choke-study-VNR-police-research-explains


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## jks9199

This is really not something that can be properly answered in this format.  As others have noted, there are many variables.  The line between unconscious/asleep and unconscious/dying is hair thin.  It's something that you should only work with under close supervision until you really know the technique and how it works, as well as the indicators if your partner cannot tap out.  Failing that, I would say that you should only apply it for a few seconds; your partner should know within 2 or 3 seconds whether it's on or not, and if it's not -- tell you.  If it is, release the choke.  But, really, I want to stress that you should really only practice it under close, trained supervision and guidance.

If you're wondering about using it in the real world -- any choke is likely to be assessed as lethal force.  If you're in a situation where you're using either choke to defend your life, hold it until you don't have to any longer, and then get away.


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## Buka

IMO, you need to speak/train with an instructor who teaches the rear naked choke as an integral part of his art. The choke has but one purpose, and one outcome, and should be taught by those experienced in it's use. It's kind of like learning how to "shoot a gun", as opposed to properly training in the use of firearms. All you have to do is pull the trigger, right? That's how it is with an RNC. There's more to it than just slapping it on. And as K-man said, the afterwards is just as important.

The "guillotine" presents even more of a problem as far as safety is concerned. IMO, it's not as much a finesse move as an RNC, and if not done properly, or not sunk in deep enough, can allow the opponent to spend time fighting it. The problem with that is it can often cause neck problems when the person applying it has an air choke on - when he thinks he has a blood choke on. It then becomes a neck crank, especially in a scramble. Neck cranks are not a good thing during training when the practitioners are not knowledgeable in their application and safety.

I wish you the best in your study of both, they are wonderfully effective in SD.


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## Chris Parker

I'll put it this way. We teach to only ever hold a choke for 15 seconds at the most. By that point, they're either unconscious, or you don't have it on properly, so you'd need to move onto something else. I don't really want to know how long it would take to kill someone, but knowing when to release so you don't is a good thing.


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## zDom

Several of the anecdotes passed down about instances in which the late Lee H. Park described self defense situations had a common theme:

He placed the attacker in a choke, felt them go out, loosened the choke until they started to struggle again, cinched up to put them back under, loosed to let them recover  until it was apparent the attacker had changed his mind about using violence.

Blood chokes (as per Wikipedia, "*Strangling* is compression of the neck that may lead to unconsciousness or death by causing an increasingly hypoxic state in the brain") can be a gentle tool, in that afterwards the attacker is no worse for the wear  but dangerous in that if a choke is held too long, as noted above, brain injury and even death can occur. And every individual is going to react differently.


With an airway chokes you run the risk of crushing the windpipe.  I personally am not going to select an air choke unless it is without doubt mortal combat because I'm not confident in my ability to successfully complete a trachetomy.


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## Steve

Every choke is different, too.  Some are just incredibly tight.  I've been put to sleep once in 6 years, and it was from a baseball bat choke that was so tight I was out within the short second or two it was being applied.  

Also, there is sometimes some confusion on the part of the person being choked.  With carotid chokes or strangles, a person who's not familiar can underestimate the danger they're in.  They can, after all, still breath and it's only when the sparkles and darkness start to creep into what becomes tunnel vision that they realize they're moments from being put to sleep.


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## Crashmoney

Body will start to spasm, then deep sobs for air then foaming at the mouth. Right after that you cause brain damage then death. I had to use death choke when attacked by some street thug once, he was dead, by the grace of God he came back to life he was foaming, stopped consciousness he was done, I am sure I would have been locked behind bars forever in this screwed up Justice System for self defense. Use arm bar guili for 10 seconds to 20 should be passed out. Put on their side and sit on top of them in control position wait for police. Worse part is this person was talking smack like 5 months later from his car, some people just don't learn. This punk never understood God gave him a second chance.


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## Steve

Crashmoney said:


> Body will start to spasm, then deep sobs for air then foaming at the mouth. Right after that you cause brain damage then death. I had to use death choke when attacked by some street thug once, he was dead, by the grace of God he came back to life he was foaming, stopped consciousness he was done, I am sure I would have been locked behind bars forever in this screwed up Justice System for self defense. Use arm bar guili for 10 seconds to 20 should be passed out. Put on their side and sit on top of them in control position wait for police. Worse part is this person was talking smack like 5 months later from his car, some people just don't learn. This punk never understood God gave him a second chance.


I've never seen anyone foam at the mouth.  That sounds really dangerous.


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## geezer

Steve said:


> I've never seen anyone foam at the mouth.  That sounds really dangerous.



I foam at the mouth daily. But that's teaching high school.

Never did foam when I was choked though. Just blacked out. When I was a kid, there was this bully and his friend who would grab my by the neck with both hands and shake my head really hard from side to side. After a few moments of my head flapping back and forth, I'd see all these little sparkly things flitting about, and next thing I knew I'd be looking up at them from the ground. Apparently it was top notch entertainment because they did it a lot.

When I got older and into wrestling, that kind of behavior diminished, partly because I wasn't such an easy mark and partly because with all the neck-bridging exercises we did, my head didn't flap around so easily even if they got ahold of it!


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## kuniggety

A properly held blood choke will make someone pass out in a number of seconds. I've been told it only takes 10-15 seconds for irreparable brain damage to begin after that. That's why chest compressions are so important for someone whose heart has stopped... That blood needs to keep flowing to the brain. If a person passes out/begins to pass out from your blood choke, you should be letting go immediately.


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## Koshiki

I've only ever been actually choked out once, usually I've had ample time to tap. This one time, I wasn't even aware of the choke really being applied. I mean, it was an in class demo on proper technique, so I was just sitting there, the instructor was talking about the best arm placement and direction of squeeze/pull, and then BAM. Out. It seemed like maybe one second.

Point being exactly what everyone else is saying. It really, really varies, from choker to chokee to situation. There's no one-size-fits-all answer, aside from, AS SHORT A TIME AS POSSIBLE. If they go out, you should already be letting up. You don't have to let go, but the pressure should be off.


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## Buka

A rear naked choke can be as serious as a (fill in your own blank). It's not something to be taken lightly. It's not allowed in Law Enforcement - unless it's a deadly force situation. What a shame that such an effective technique should be excluded to those that might need it most. I don't blame the officers involved in the incidents that led to this, I blame their instructors. A good rear naked choke is money in the bank.

On the other hand -over the years there have been some funny, story inducing moments in a lot of dojos across the country concerning rear naked chokes.  

As for the actual time, the more proficient the choker, the better the clock.


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## Hanzou

While I love a good RNC, the guillotine is the choke I fear the most. I know a few guys who like to hit the guillotine from a variety of positions, and when they lock it in, you're already halfway to dreamland.

The other thing about the guillotine is that it takes time for them to unwrap you from the choke. So you could have already tapped, and your partner has begun to release you, but the choke is still on, cutting off your blood supply.

To this day, the guillotine is the only choke I've passed out to (on multiple occasions).


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## RTKDCMB

I am no expert in the choke but I would say that if they stop breathing then you probably held on too long.


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## GiYu - Todd

According to Hollywood, most people die within two seconds of the star choking them out.  This is very similar to the non-starring characters being winged in the shoulder by a bullet and going down instantly like someone flipped a switch.

The general rule I read a couple years ago (sorry, can't remember source or I'd site it) was once the person loses consciousness, for every additional second you maintain the choke, they should remain unconscious approximately 6 seconds after release.  So for 1 second, they should take 6 seconds to recover (which is roughly what I've personally experienced).  For 10 seconds, they should take 1 minute (haven't wanted to test this). 

For training, I quit within a second of my partner slumping.  No need to risk anything beyond that.  For a general fight, I'd hold long enough to make them take 15-30 seconds or so to wake up (so... 3-5 seconds), so I'd have time to get clear, gather my things, dust off, and be ready for round two if they're not that bright.  For a real life-or-death fight, I would hold long enough (likely 10-20 seconds) to make sure the person won't be a threat for enough time to escape, secure them, disable them, whatever... with only a slight (legal) concern for potential brain damage. 

Brain damage typically begins about 3 1/2 to 4 minutes after loss of oxygen.  Although the longer you go, the higher likelihood of medical problems occuring, even if you quit before 3 1/2 minutes.  After a minute or two, their heart my fail, or the compressed arteries may fail to restore full flow in time.


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## Paul_D

Buka said:


> As for the actual time, the more proficient the choker, the better the clock.



The would make sense if you had said strangle, as the harder/better you apply it the more blood you are cutting off to the brain, but how does your proificanery affect a choke?

A choke cuts off air, making it impossible to breathe, so the time frame is dictated to by someone's ability to hold their breath.  Applying it more proficiently doesn't alter how long they can hold their breath for before passing out.


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## Tez3

GiYu - Todd said:


> This is very similar to the non-starring characters being winged in the shoulder by a bullet and going down instantly like someone flipped a switch



Seems that *is* true in real life but the reasons why are still being debated.

Why Do People Fall Down When Shot? | RealClearScience


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## Tony Dismukes

Paul_D said:


> The would make sense if you had said strangle, as the harder/better you apply it the more blood you are cutting off to the brain, but how does your proificanery affect a choke?
> 
> A choke cuts off air, making it impossible to breathe, so the time frame is dictated to by someone's ability to hold their breath.  Applying it more proficiently doesn't alter how long they can hold their breath for before passing out.


The "strangle" vs "choke" distinction is a feature of medical terminology. In martial arts terminology, "choke" is generally used for both. (Typically "blood choke" vs "air choke" makes the same distinction.) In this case, I believe Buka was referring to a blood choke (or "strangle" in medical terms).



Chris Parker said:


> I'll put it this way. We teach to only ever hold a choke for 15 seconds at the most. By that point, they're either unconscious, or you don't have it on properly, so you'd need to move onto something else.



That's pretty much what I teach my students. If they haven't already tapped out or passed out in 10-12 seconds, you don't have the choke set properly and you're wasting your energy.



Steve said:


> I've been put to sleep once in 6 years, and it was from a baseball bat choke that was so tight I was out within the short second or two it was being applied.



I think I've seen more people pass out in competition from a baseball bat choke than from any other choke. (Specifically the version that you catch someone with as they pass your guard.) Properly done, it's so sneaky that the opponent doesn't realize he's in trouble until it's too late.



Crashmoney said:


> Body will start to spasm, then deep sobs for air then foaming at the mouth. Right after that you cause brain damage then death. I had to use death choke when attacked by some street thug once, he was dead, by the grace of God he came back to life he was foaming, stopped consciousness he was done, I am sure I would have been locked behind bars forever in this screwed up Justice System for self defense. Use arm bar guili for 10 seconds to 20 should be passed out. Put on their side and sit on top of them in control position wait for police. Worse part is this person was talking smack like 5 months later from his car, some people just don't learn. This punk never understood God gave him a second chance.



Umm ... your attacker may have been passed out, but he wasn't dead. Dead people don't spontaneously come back to life.

I don't think the foaming at the mouth is particularly common. I've seen a fair number of people choked unconscious and I've never seen foaming at the mouth. Maybe the guy you fought had some other health issue going on.

The following video by Rener & Ryron Gracie helps break down some important signs for recognizing when the recipient of a choke has gone unconscious.


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## Dirty Dog

In medical terms, if you're alive it was a choke. If you were strangled, you're dead. 

And no, the person referenced above was not dead. 

Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Hanzou

I typically see people pass out from Guard chokes. I think people instinctually try to fight off chokes while in someone's guard instead of tapping. The worst are people trying to pass guards while a choke is being applied. You're pretty much assured to be asleep in a matter of seconds.


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