# It's a control issue.



## ikenpo (Jan 20, 2003)

Given that we've talked technique lines and touching people...

Just wondering what the philosophy on control was among the instructors present? (if you have one) Do you follow it as well? How do you enforce it? Have you ever gone a little too far? For the others what do you think your instructor's position on control is? Has he clearly stated it? Does he follow his owe rules on control?

jb


----------



## JD_Nelson (Jan 21, 2003)

> Given that we've talked technique lines and touching people...
> 
> Just wondering what the philosophy on control was among the instructors present? (if you have one) Do you follow it as well? How do you enforce it? Have you ever gone a little too far? For the others what do you think your instructor's position on control is? Has he clearly stated it? Does he follow his owe rules on control?
> 
> jb




As a student, I feel like as a class we tend to warm up in power.  Althouhg note really ever reprimended, I have at times been asked to lighten up.   I dont feel like I am trying to pound on people, but I just like to hit.  I dont mind being hit either.   I like to test my own pain threshold.  There are certain techniques I do not like to have done to me because I always end up at the chiropractor a couple of days afterward.   Grip of death just tends to wrench my neck around enough to take everything out of alignment.  I do think that this exposure has also helped me to better control my own power in a technique line as well.   I can FEEL how effective it is on me so I try not to overkill any tech because of my own fears of being injured.  


Sincerely

JD


----------



## Michael Billings (Jan 21, 2003)

It has to be enforced and carefully monitored.  There is too much risk of serious bodily injury without external controls initially.  As the student progresses they learn to judge the opponent's range of motion, pain threshold, or vital targets, and limit the force that can be applied without permanent injury.  We are not talking about bumps and bruises ... those are usually ok, and heavy bags are for full contact, but you have to teach control, with focus, and power simultaneously.

-Michael
AKTS


----------



## Jill666 (Jan 21, 2003)

My instructor uses good control. As a class we all know each other's limitations and current injuries, and who can take a hit where, so it's rarely an issue. 

For example, I can take quite a solid punch to the gut, but having had a dislocated jaw, the jaw and temple contact is avoided by my peers. 

In the advanced class (blue-brown) there were two guys who would not back down or temper their attack, and both ened up with broken digits. :shrug: Both were brown belts when I joined the class, and both are brown belts as I am in the black belt class. 'Nuff said.


----------



## RCastillo (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *It has to be enforced and carefully monitored.  There is too much risk of serious bodily injury without external controls initially.  As the student progresses they learn to judge the opponent's range of motion, pain threshold, or vital targets, and limit the force that can be applied without permanent injury.  We are not talking about bumps and bruises ... those are usually ok, and heavy bags are for full contact, but you have to teach control, with focus, and power simultaneously.
> 
> -Michael
> AKTS *



My sentiments, exactly!:asian:


----------



## Seig (Jan 29, 2003)

I extoll the virtues of control and am quick to point out and to use it as a teaching tool.  However, occassionally I get a knucklehead that just won't listen........
Whatever the attitude, so is the response.


----------



## Quick Sand (Jan 29, 2003)

The people in my class and usually pretty good about control with one or two exceptions but  my problem is sometimes the instructor. He's a pretty big guy and I really don't think he knows how strong he is. He'll also get explaining things and get distracted. Last night he was doing a wrist lock on me to show it to another student and when I tapped he didn't let go. He was talking and actually wrenched it on harder. Luckily I have really flexible wrists so I'm not actually hurt but my wrist is still a little sore this morning. I'm not really impressed. :shrug:


----------



## Les (Jan 29, 2003)

A key factor here is that everyone is different. What is a hard shot for one student may feel like nothing to another.

The way we approach it in our school is that you have to communicate with your training partner.

If you are geting shots that are a bit too hard, just say to that person, ' Ease up a bit will you' 

Alternately, you might want to ask someone else to 'Put a bit more effort into the shot'

It can sometimes be hard to balance control and safety with preparing the body to 'take the punishment' in a real situation, but safety and common sense should always prevail.

If my Instructor was going too hard on me I'd sure as hell tell him to ease up. If I ever go too hard on a student, I'd expect, and want him to say something to me.

It's the Instructors responsibility to ensure that his class is run safely, but common sense should tell anyone to speak up if they are suffering.

If you end up training with someone who wont ease up when you ask him, speak to your Instructor after the class. If your Instructor can't resolve the situation, see your schools Chief Instructor.

To go off on a tangent, a while back I was having one of my students show a palm heel to the chest (on me), and she wasn't putting much power into it. I said to her, 'You're not stroking the cat, do it again and put a bit more effort into it'

Just after I got the searing pain in my chest I remembered she was wearing a splint on her wrist that had a metal support.... 

Next time I'll think before I ask her to turn up the power. 

Les


----------



## Brother John (Jan 29, 2003)

There are different types of control:
1. No physical contact.
2. Physical contact, barely...very surface.
3. Depth-contact, w/in pain/damage boundaries.
4. Depth-contact...NO speed. Full hit, slow-mo.
5. Pain-contact, w/in damage but NOT pain boundaries.

#1: No physical contact. Though many schools espouse this form of control... I DO NOT. I believe 100% that you will respond the way that you train = therefore people that don't make contact are getting very good at missing!!!!

#2: Better, but still missing.

#3: Best! This is where my club tries to keep things MOST of the time.

#4: Descent. Good for learning proper mechanics and trajectory of force at-in-through our attackers anatomy w/out the damage of acceleration.

#5: CAREFUL. Can go there from time to time... but both must agree and be supervised!!!

Just my thoughts and how my students train.
Your Brother
John


----------



## Les (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *No physical contact. Though many schools espouse this form of control... I DO NOT. I believe 100% that you will respond the way that you train = therefore people that don't make contact are getting very good at missing!!!!
> *



This is what I tell the beginners (abridged version);

When you are here you have no enemies, only training partners.

I don't want you to damage each other (because I need you to come back next week so I can pay the rent), but I have to teach you reality.

If you always do this (the technique) gently, then in a real life situation thats the only way you'll be able to do it.

So I want you to BLOCK HARD. Then do the rest of the technique with lots of control.

If you ever have to use something like this in a real, stress filled situation, you'll automatically BLOCK HARD. Then your subconscious will kick in and say 'Woah, this bas***d is really trying to hurt me' and you'll be able to turn the power up for the rest of the technique.

Les


----------



## True2Kenpo (Jan 30, 2003)

Fellow Kenpoists,

I think "control" is very, very important!  Not only does it help lessen the chance of injury in the dojo, but I think it also teaches the student (and for that matter the instructor) the importance of being able to assess the situation and the amount of force that is needed.

If one is out of control, they might resort to physical contact at all times, when in some cases physical confrontation could have been avoided.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


----------



## Brother John (Feb 3, 2003)

> If one is out of control, they might resort to physical contact at all times, when in some cases physical confrontation could have been avoided.



True. I agree that a martial artist must Always be in "control". 
I'm not talking about abandoning 'control', but the level to which you emphasize control... no contact, limited contact or further.
Safety must be the parameters and absence of "pain" a guide, but w/out some contact.... we get very good at missing. Gauging our depth and angle become automatic and we will pull off in combat what we do the most in training..... miss. 

As Mr. Hancock says: "whatever you do the most IS the basis of your art."

thanks for hearing me out...
Your Brother
John


----------



## Jill666 (Feb 3, 2003)

I've noticed as time goes by there are kinds of pain I can take, but when a joint is over-stressed and injury is imminent, I have learned to recognize that kind of pain to tap out IMMEDIATELY. But that took a while to figure out.

Remember the days when we'd grimace through a joint lock saying "that don't hurt" and then ice & ace wrap for four days after?

:asian: Now I'm older & wiser. OK, maybe just older


----------



## Jill666 (Feb 3, 2003)

Great quote!!!!


----------



## True2Kenpo (Feb 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *True. I agree that a martial artist must Always be in "control".
> I'm not talking about abandoning 'control', but the level to which you emphasize control... no contact, limited contact or further.
> Safety must be the parameters and absence of "pain" a guide, but w/out some contact.... we get very good at missing. Gauging our depth and angle become automatic and we will pull off in combat what we do the most in training..... miss.
> ...



Brother John,

I agree with you.  Great point!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


----------



## ken_loc (Feb 15, 2003)

I agree control is needed, but contact is also a necessity. Technique lines are to help a student learn how to execute a technique on a real body. If a student is always taught to hit lightly or to not make contact at all then when he/her has to actually use that technique, they are going to fight exactly like they train. Like wise if a student is never hit how will he or she react to being cold cocked in the street. Then where is the martial(war) aspect of their art.

                                                  ooss :asian:


----------



## Brother John (Feb 17, 2003)

> I agree control is needed, but contact is also a necessity.





> they are going to fight exactly like they train


It deserved being said again.
I agree J.B.
It's one of the things that gets impressed into my mind when I have a new student and "initiate" them into a good, high spirited, technique line. True, they may only be doing the first few techs as that's all they may have at that point, but the punches/kicks...what-haveyou, aren't politely going out wide, they are aimed at their targets and the speed of the strikes and tempo of the line increase with ability.... to watch them respond is interesting. You can tell the students who've either trained in other arts that made contact OR those who did such sports as wrestling/football/basketball... where sharp body contact is made. These students tend to EAT UP the tech-line work; whereas the generally unathletic neophyte responds with ether shocked rigidity or wild flinging panic. ((Not that we make their first several times in the tech-line a "baptism by Fire".... that's later.))
I agree wholeheartedly J.B., If you don't know how to make contact and project force along the correct path... your techs WILL be slap-happy at best. BUT if you do know how to make contact (through experience) then your techs will be executed with the insight and ingrained ability of proper training. 
Likewise, if you a solid slap in the face phases you, or a sharp shot to the solar-plexus stuns you... a streetfighter will eat you up.

Say "Hi" to Brian for me next time you see him in class. He's a good man.

Your Brother
John


----------



## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

Does it feel like a heavy slap to anyone?  When I get wailed on 
(with control) it feels like a heavy handed slap!  It lights my skin
on fired, but nothing beneath the skin.  Do you get used to that?


----------



## RCastillo (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Does it feel like a heavy slap to anyone?  When I get wailed on
> (with control) it feels like a heavy handed slap!  It lights my skin
> on fired, but nothing beneath the skin.  Do you get used to that? *



The Goldendragon hit me in the throat! I didn't say a word, cause I couldn't speark!


----------



## jfarnsworth (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *The Goldendragon hit me in the throat! I didn't say a word, cause I couldn't speark! *




Must be you then.


----------



## RCastillo (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Must be you then. *



Must be me, what?


----------



## Kirk (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *The Goldendragon hit me in the throat! I didn't say a word, cause I couldn't speark! *



Okay, ever feel like actually answering a question?


----------



## RCastillo (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Okay, ever feel like actually answering a question? *



Not, if the IKKO is on the other end of the line!


----------



## Seig (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Not, if the IKKO is on the other end of the line! *


Ya know, one of these days, you are going to be facing some pretty stiff payback......


----------



## Kirk (Feb 18, 2003)

Y'know, I'm all for kidding around, but damn, there's a million and
one other threads going on that STARTED OFF joking around.

Why does EVERY kenpo thread have to turn into it?
Some of us non black belts wouldn't mind actually LEARNING a
thing or two, or getting some training advice, etc.


----------



## ikenpo (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Y'know, I'm all for kidding around, but damn, there's a million and
> one other threads going on that STARTED OFF joking around.
> 
> ...



Ya ever think maybe they can't answer the question...


My response would be hell no you never get used to somebody wacking you as you play a "stone statue". If they can make it hurt then they can do it with just "influence" and not as much pain. Of course I'm assuming we are talking normal everyday class. Why break your stone? During seminars, camps, etc...expect it to crank up a little (or alot  ), but during regular class why crack a guy everytime unless you have issues with your ego and you require it to remain inflated at all times.  

Show a visible level of discomfort with getting tagged so hard and maybe he or she will ease up. Otherwise pull them over to the side and let them know. I know its blasphamy in this "martial" arts world, but at least it's better than them running you off. Of course some will disagree and just say your soft......

jb:asian:


----------



## Kirk (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Ya ever think maybe they can't answer the question...
> 
> 
> ...



THANK YOU for replying to my question!  

Actually, my problem isn't when they want to light me up, my
problem comes when they exercise control.  It feels like a good
hard slap! It's surface sting, not penetration pain.  Is this 
common?


----------



## Kenpodoc (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *THANK YOU for replying to my question!
> 
> Actually, my problem isn't when they want to light me up, my
> ...



It's interesting, I find that when some people strike me, my body may move but it's just a surface sting.  Others hit me and on the surface it feels light, my body may not even move, but it feels like a ball of energy penetrates and strikes my internal organs.  I've had some people strike me and my skin didn't hurt but my kidney yelled "no mas" and I just wanted to fall to my knees and puke.

Personally I'm trying to develop the surface sting, body movement strike for positional control and the depth charge for finishing movement.  Unfortunately I haven't learned how to turn it on and off yet, but I'm just a beginner.


----------



## ikenpo (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *THANK YOU for replying to my question!
> 
> Actually, my problem isn't when they want to light me up, my
> ...



My answer would be yes...but I still don't define that as controlled. The good thing out of this is that you see how it can feel and are hopefully being trained so that the ability will be transfered to your method of execution, and you can eventually be the bigger man and not kill your training partner.

jb


----------



## Robbo (Feb 18, 2003)

> Actually, my problem isn't when they want to light me up, my problem comes when they exercise control. It feels like a good
> hard slap! It's surface sting, not penetration pain. Is this
> common?



Would this not be someone exercising proper control and using depth of penetration properly so as to not cause damage? To keep the force of the strike at the surface with a shallow penetration.

Depending on the purpose of the strike you would have to vary this for the desired results though.

Rob


----------



## Kirk (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
> *Would this not be someone exercising proper control and using depth of penetration properly so as to not cause damage? To keep the force of the strike at the surface with a shallow penetration.
> 
> Depending on the purpose of the strike you would have to vary this for the desired results though.
> ...



The purpose in my case, is to use intent while doing techniques 
on each other.


----------



## Robbo (Feb 18, 2003)

> The purpose in my case, is to use intent while doing techniques



Not what I meant....

What I meant was that some strikes are snapping and some are thrusting. Due to the nature of a snapping strike it is fairly easy to make the depth of penetration shallow for control purposes (translation- not hurting your partner). The thrusting strike is a little more tricky as you do not want to slow down the strike (to practise is realistically) but you still want a significant depth of penetration to cause a desired reaction (moving the body in a certain dir, causing them to make a step, etc.).

In the case of the thrusting strike you can alter your weapons to spread out the force w/o sacrificing speed/force. You can hit the inside of the leg with the point of your knee to widen his base (buckling) and cause considerable pain as the inside of the thigh is very sensitive. But if you change the weapon to be the entire front top surface of your leg (quadricep) then you can hit the same target with the same speed/force and not cause your partner as much pain but still getting the desired result of widening their base (buckling).

There is also the scenario of your partner being familiar with the techniques and 'going' with it allowing you to execute at full power/speed. In the preceding example your partner knowing a strike to the inside of their thigh is coming would take the weight off of the leg that is going to be struck and would let your strike bounce his leg out widening his base (again buckling).

Rob


----------



## Kirk (Feb 18, 2003)

Thanks Rob, big help.


----------



## Bujingodai (Feb 19, 2003)

So would you say it wise to continue training with a common uke?  I find that generally happens anyway.


----------



## Robbo (Feb 20, 2003)

> So would you say it wise to continue training with a common uke? I find that generally happens anyway.



Oh, hey Dave,

Not sure who you are talking to or what you are getting at? What do you mean by 'common'?

Rob


----------



## Brother John (Feb 20, 2003)

I think he's saying to use the same attacker each time, I think.

I don't think that this would be the way to go as working with a variety of people increases our insight into the techs and how to tweak them to adapt. 

I think that Kenpo's two greatest strengths are:
Practical Logic
and
Adaptability...

Your Brother
John


----------



## Robbo (Feb 20, 2003)

yep, you should be able to pull your stuff off on anybody, within reason of course. If your stuff only works on your favourite student or training partner then you are being limited by your environment.

Rob


----------



## Jill666 (Feb 20, 2003)

Agreed- I first learn the technique according to the curriculum, then have my uke try to screw me up. Once some insight and adaptability is gained within the moves, we swap ukes to work it some more against different body types and reactions. But initially we work with the same people just due to knowing that person's anatomy and learning style I think keeps the focus on the technique until we're ready to pull it apart. Lastly, we know each other's tolerance and weaknesses so when putting some oomph into the moves, there's less chance of accidents.


----------



## Nightingale (Feb 22, 2003)

it seems that the attitude in my school regarding control is "whatever the attitude, so the response"

if someone comes at me hard in a technique line, they're gonna get hit back with equal force (or as equal as I can manage).  If someone is afraid and timid, I'm gonna be gentle with them, because they're already afraid of getting hurt.

Each person needs to be taken on an individual basis.  These people are your comerades.  You know who you can hit and who can't have bruises showing at work the next day.  Use common sense.


----------



## Les (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *it seems that the attitude in my school regarding control is "whatever the attitude, so the response"
> 
> if someone comes at me hard in a technique line, they're gonna get hit back with equal force (or as equal as I can manage).  If someone is afraid and timid, I'm gonna be gentle with them, because they're already afraid of getting hurt.
> *



Nightingale,

You would be the ideal training partner for me.
I'm afraid of getting hurt. And I'm shy and timid too.

Les


----------



## D.Cobb (Feb 23, 2003)

When I started training in American Kenpo, There were only 2 of us in the school, plus the instructor. The instructor was heavy handed and the other guy grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. It was nearly 12 months before I got my yellow belt, because I wasn't aggressive enough. Man we used to go home cut and bruised. I wouldn't have swapped it for anything. Our school never really grew in size until a new instructor took over, with a different attitude toward pain....
Those of us from the original school kept playing hard, but with newer students we were under strict orders to go easy. 

After I left American Kenpo for some pressure point stuff, the thing I missed and still do, the most was the contact. The good thing is that the school where I train now has a lot of contact at the higher levels, and it suits me just fine to throw hard, knowing that I will get it back bigtime.

Sometimes I think it is just horses for courses!

Hell, I used to tell people to play hard or go the f**k home!
These days I'm a little more tolerant, but only a little 

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> * If someone is afraid and timid, I'm gonna be gentle with them, because they're already afraid of getting hurt.*



But you ain't doing them any favor. They have to get used to some kind of pain to elevate their threshold for pain, otherwise they won't know how to react a real sit comes up.


----------



## Les (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *But you ain't doing them any favor. They have to get used to some kind of pain to elevate their threshold for pain, otherwise they won't know how to react a real sit comes up. *



But this must be done gradually, with the active input of the person concerned, otherwise they will lose confidence in their ability to 'make it' in Kenpo, and you will lose a student.

Also, if that happens they will relate their negative experience to their friends, and you will lose a valuable source of new students.

Les


----------



## Kenpomachine (Feb 23, 2003)

I agree with it being done gradually  
However, it's usually more difficult to have them hitting you anything over gentle slapping first. Once they've seen you don't break or twist in pain, they put themselves together and can get hit a little harder...


----------

