# Need some help



## antny825 (Dec 4, 2006)

Hi  to all, I am new to the martial arts. my son 4 years old has begun training at the local dojo. I really like this place, but I feel that I am getting ripped off money wise. I currently pay 129 a month which I feel is high,with a rate increase in 2007 (They are trying to get people to lock their 2006 rates in now) As of now they want to move my son into a more advanced class called the leadership program for between 21- 71 a month more depending on how much we want him to learn. On top of that they want another 500 bucks for all the weapons  and gear he will need. When we first signed up they talked us into getting the basic package which was 99 dollars, and two weeks later they wanted to move him into the leadership program. I have also noticed they seem to promote some of these kids into their next belt without much effort, so they can collect their 60 dollars every two months.Any info for a good school in the Haverhill massachusetts area would be greatly appreciated
Thanks in advance for any replies


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## Kacey (Dec 4, 2006)

First, welcome to MT!

Second, yes, I would say you are being taken for as much money as they can get you to cough up.  I wish I could help you find a new school, but since I'm in Colorado, I don't know too much about your neck of the woods.  I'm sure someone who does will be around sooner or later.  Good luck!


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## Ping898 (Dec 4, 2006)

Welcome to MT!

I can't tell you yes or no you are being ripped off just because every situation is different and every school is different.  I used to pay about $130 a month and it was for a school in Las Cruces, NM....not exactly an affluent area, there was another school that was only charging $40 a month, was I being ripped off, I don't think so, the school was in a nice area, had rent, was part of organizations so I am sure had dues and other expenses.  The $40 a month one was taught by a guy in a slightly unsavory part of town and he had a day job so didn't need the money to live on per se.  
Every situation is different, but I would say if you feel you are being taken advantage of, ask them to justify the expenses, tell them you are uncomfortable with the upcoming prices can they please give you an idea of where it is all going to and what the benefits to you are....I am not saying ask them to tell you their monthly rent, but they ought to be willing to let you know if they have organization dues, are they sponsoring any students?, do they provide seminars free of charge to you that cost them money to bring in the instructors, do they have an office manager who the pay? Is there extra fees on top of rent for the space they use?...if you don't like the answer...leave...or don't re-up went your contract is done and be looking for someplace else in the mean time...
Also you might check out other schools in the area even if you don't intend to train there just to see if the prices you are paying are comperable to the area...


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## Ceicei (Dec 4, 2006)

For your four year old son?  No, don't sign up for all of that.  You're definitely being ripped off.  A four year old has a typical short attention span and a leadership package at this point will not make much difference.  Keep to a basic tuition for the first few months.  The interest of your son might change, so try for month-to-month basis rather than a yearly contract.  I strongly suggest you look elsewhere for a different school.

- Ceicei


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## thetruth (Dec 5, 2006)

This whole locking in for this years prices and leadership programs sounds like they are utilising one of the many marketing companies out there such as NAPMA.  It's totally up to you if you are getting ripped off but that seems excessive for a child.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Jonathan Randall (Dec 5, 2006)

Ceicei said:


> For your four year old son? No, don't sign up for all of that. You're definitely being ripped off. A four year old has a typical short attention span and a leadership package at this point will not make much difference. Keep to a basic tuition for the first few months. The interest of your son might change, so try for month-to-month basis rather than a yearly contract. I strongly suggest you look elsewhere for a different school.
> 
> - Ceicei


 
That is very good advice, Ceicei.

I know that the local community college here has JKA Karate for less than half of what the school antny825 is paying - also there are no "extra" fees in the range you're speaking of. Check YOUR local community college/community center, etc. for classes like this as well. The hidden secret of the Martial Arts is that many of the best little gems are inexpensive while many of the expensive ones are worth little.


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## shesulsa (Dec 5, 2006)

There is no reason for you to have to pay that much for your four-year-old son to train.


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## bushidomartialarts (Dec 5, 2006)

many schools charge that much for lessons.  mine charges $125.

trying to put a child that young in a leadership program is a red flag, though.  so is the 'false scarcity' close they're trying on you by telling you about a 2007 rate increase.

honestly, you're being charged a legitimate amount for attending a professional program.  and if you can afford it, a professional program is worth that and more.

now, the question remains if that program is, in fact, professional.

what's the name of the school and organization?  someone on here will recognize the name.


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## IWishToLearn (Dec 5, 2006)

For a 4 year old - it's bogus. Find a new school.


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## Tez3 (Dec 5, 2006)

I don't know what the exchange rate is but that looks an awful amount of money! The leadership programme for a four year old sounds a bit odd. they should be enjoying the classes at this age, playing games and learning basics. We run classes for 4-7 year olds. It's twice a week for 3/4hour. That's long enough for such an age group. We charge £4 a session or £25 for the month. the chikdren go up to the older childrens class at about 6 or 7 depending on the child. The cost goes up to £4.50 an hour or £30 per month, for that they get training twice a week, a kata class once a week and once a month a free Saturday seminar. Just checked the paper, the tourist rate of the dallar to the pound is $1.90 to the £, but I can't do arithmetic lol!


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## Cirdan (Dec 5, 2006)

antny825 said:


> I feel that I am getting ripped off money wise.


 
You probably are. Check out some other schools and concider joining one where money ain`t that important.


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## KempoFlow (Dec 5, 2006)

Ceicei said:


> For your four year old son? No, don't sign up for all of that. You're definitely being ripped off. A four year old has a typical short attention span and a leadership package at this point will not make much difference. Keep to a basic tuition for the first few months. The interest of your son might change, so try for month-to-month basis rather than a yearly contract. I strongly suggest you look elsewhere for a different school.
> 
> - Ceicei


Plus weapons training for a 4 year old is a bit much IMO.


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 5, 2006)

Wow, you are being taken for a ride financially.
According to NAPMA, the average monthly fee is around $65 per month.  In my opinion, you should not pay more than $70 per month.

Do your research and find every school in your area.  Make sure you call all YMCA's and community centers and see if they have classses going.  Many of the best schools are tucked away in these places and only charge around $40-50 per month.  I am a community center bred martial artist and for the past 15 years have always trained in city rec centers.  This hint is important.  Call the local rec and community centers!

It looks like you have a lot of schools in your city.  It should not be hard for you to find a better one.  Here is a small list that I found with Google:

1   All Together Fit, Inc.
200 Brickstone Square
Andover, MA   01810


 2   Four Seasons Chinese Martial Arts
14 Granite Street
Haverhill, MA   01830


 3   Universal Kenpo Karate
135b North Broadway
Salem, NH   03079


 4   World Gym Haverhill
2 Water St
Haverhill, MA   01830-6223


 5   Yang's Fitness Center
5 Dundee Park
Andover, MA   01810

Ocasios True Martial Arts 
Haverhill, MA 01832 
www.ocasiostruemartialarts.com 

World Taekwondo Federation 
Haverhill, MA  
Business Phone Number 
www.wtf.org


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 5, 2006)

KempoFlow said:


> Plus weapons training for a 4 year old is a bit much IMO.


 
I agree.

AoG


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## MJS (Dec 5, 2006)

antny825 said:


> Hi to all, I am new to the martial arts. my son 4 years old has begun training at the local dojo. I really like this place, but I feel that I am getting ripped off money wise. I currently pay 129 a month which I feel is high,with a rate increase in 2007 (They are trying to get people to lock their 2006 rates in now) As of now they want to move my son into a more advanced class called the leadership program for between 21- 71 a month more depending on how much we want him to learn. On top of that they want another 500 bucks for all the weapons and gear he will need. When we first signed up they talked us into getting the basic package which was 99 dollars, and two weeks later they wanted to move him into the leadership program. I have also noticed they seem to promote some of these kids into their next belt without much effort, so they can collect their 60 dollars every two months.Any info for a good school in the Haverhill massachusetts area would be greatly appreciated
> Thanks in advance for any replies


 
Welcome to Martial Talk! 

As for your question.  First off, it should not be a matter of what they want to enroll him in, it should be what you want to enroll him in.  Personally, that is a bit pricey.  What do the 'extra' items consist of?  It also seems like they want to 'fast track' your child and his progress.  There really is no 'fast track' to anything IMO.  Quality learning takes time, and there are no shortcuts.  Sure, a private lesson is an extra perk, but it still comes down to the person putting in that extra time at home, working on the material.

If you don't feel comfortable with this, I'd sit down with the instructor and tell them that you're really not interested at this time.  If you're feeling pressured, I'd thank them for their time, and find your son a new school to enroll in.  As harsh as that may sound, it really isn't, as its your money, and you should be able to spend it how you want, not how they want.

Good luck.

Mike


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 5, 2006)

Really rates depend on the *area*.  If you were in a large *Metro* area then you are going to pay more based on the cost of rent, etc.  Having said that I do think you are paying quite a bit and signing up a 4 year old for a leadership class is a little much.  Plus if you feel you are being pressured to lock in rates then that might be something to watch out for.  

I would definately look around and see what else is available.


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## Naha (Dec 5, 2006)

I agree with what everyone else has said.  The actually cost of classes will vary.  The things to notice are the extra charges.  Also, your son's age is a major factor.  I think you brought up a good point when you mentioned how quickly and easily students were obtaining rank.  All of the factors together make me uneasy about the school.  

There is a school here that has fees for testing and everything else.  I see parents sign a contract for very young children who lose interest quickly, and then they are stuck paying for classes that the children do not attend.  If you look for another school, ask about things like testing fees.  I do not want to cause controversy, but I do not believe you should pay to test or sign a contract.  I know some school do, and they may be good schools.  However, when you're dealing with someone as mercurial as a four year old, I would avoid contracts because you do not know how long he will stick with it.
Good luck.


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## bydand (Dec 5, 2006)

Have to agree with the general statements here.  Sounds like a bit much (rate at the school I go to is 50/month for yourself and 40/month for additional family members.  Granted it mat be quite a bit higher depending on your location, but check around to see.  

As for leadership training for a 4 year old, WHAT??? Sounds like a weight loss program for your checking account.  $500 for weapons and extras, again, seems a bit high to me, and that brings up weapons training for a 4 year old.    We don't do "weapons" until the Junior level (about 8 or 9 years old) and then it is very limited as to what weapons.  All my training weapons come to WAY under the 500 figure. Talk to the instructors, Listen to your feelings and intuitions, hope everything works out well for you and your son.


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## bcbernam777 (Dec 5, 2006)

antny825 said:


> Hi  to all, I am new to the martial arts. my son 4 years old has begun training at the local dojo. I really like this place, but I feel that I am getting ripped off money wise. I currently pay 129 a month which I feel is high,with a rate increase in 2007 (They are trying to get people to lock their 2006 rates in now) As of now they want to move my son into a more advanced class called the leadership program for between 21- 71 a month more depending on how much we want him to learn. On top of that they want another 500 bucks for all the weapons  and gear he will need. When we first signed up they talked us into getting the basic package which was 99 dollars, and two weeks later they wanted to move him into the leadership program. I have also noticed they seem to promote some of these kids into their next belt without much effort, so they can collect their 60 dollars every two months.Any info for a good school in the Haverhill massachusetts area would be greatly appreciated
> Thanks in advance for any replies



In the world of Martial Arts this is what is known as a McDojo.

Look Learning how to develop yourself comes at a price tag, it is not the money that you are paying I would be most concerned about, what would set the red lights of for me is the ease and speed they are pushing your son through into the leadership class and the belts. If you have to work your butt of to attain it, then it is probably genuine, but if it comes to easy then that is a sighn that you are in the wrong place.....however what you need to do as a parent is really evaluate what you want your child to get from the classes, do you want him to actually learn Martial Arts (i.e. how to fight his way out of any situation) or do you want him to build some self confidence? If it is the later then the school you are in may or may not fit the bill.


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 5, 2006)

bydand said:


> As for leadership training for a 4 year old, WHAT??? Sounds like a weight loss program for your checking account.


 
lol


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## antny825 (Dec 5, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:


> many schools charge that much for lessons. mine charges $125.
> 
> trying to put a child that young in a leadership program is a red flag, though. so is the 'false scarcity' close they're trying on you by telling you about a 2007 rate increase.
> 
> ...


 The school is Ocasios True Martial Arts


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## antny825 (Dec 5, 2006)

I would like to thank all for the advice, I will surely be looking for a new school, I am under contract until mid March


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## jks9199 (Dec 5, 2006)

Ceicei said:


> For your four year old son?  No, don't sign up for all of that.  You're definitely being ripped off.  A four year old has a typical short attention span and a leadership package at this point will not make much difference.  Keep to a basic tuition for the first few months.  The interest of your son might change, so try for month-to-month basis rather than a yearly contract.  I strongly suggest you look elsewhere for a different school.
> 
> - Ceicei


Yep -- gotta agree.  This "deal" sounds like it's designed to line the school owner's pockets.  A 4 year old is almost certainly not going to be a credible candidate for any "leadership" program...  MAYBE, just maybe at 14.  

Add a hard sell approach...

My personal opinion -- run, don't walk, for another activity or at least another school for your kid.


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## bushidomartialarts (Dec 5, 2006)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Wow, you are being taken for a ride financially.
> According to NAPMA, the average monthly fee is around $65 per month. In my opinion, you should not pay more than $70 per month.


 
Funny, last I checked with NAPMA, the average was $120.  One of us needs to recheck his figures (and I'm open to the idea that I'm the one that needs to).

Everything else is dead on target.  Do your research, check things out.  Try every intro program within reasonable driving distance.

At the end of the day, you may find that everything less expensive is of lower quality and that you're actually in a good space.  Or you may find the perfect match for your family at $45 a month.  

Slightly off topic, there's kind of a schism in the price structures.  People appear to fall in the low 100s for monthly tuition, or in the 50-60 dollar range.  Rather than a bell curve, the graph looks like a camel. For reference, 50-60 a month was average tuition in the 70s.


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 5, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Funny, last I checked with NAPMA, the average was $120. One of us needs to recheck his figures (and I'm open to the idea that I'm the one that needs to).


 
"The average tuition in the United States is $65 a month, says Rob Colasanti, vice president of NAPMA. "

I got that above quote from the following article:
http://familyfun.go.com/parenting/learn/activities/feature/famf28martialarts/famf28martialarts2.html

That is from Family Fun Magazine, which is hosted by Disney.  It took me a lot of digging to find that article, but you made me wonder if I was remembering what I had read wrong.

That number seems to ring true to my area as well.

AoG


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## still learning (Dec 5, 2006)

Hello, TRY JUDO!  For small kids (young ones)  JUDO is one of the best places to start learning self-defense.

They will learn how to fall,thumble,roll, learn basic JUDO throws,hands on contact (learn faster here)!

For most martial arts--JUDO is a GREAT thing to add to your martial art classes or training!

FIND A JUDO CLASS IN YOUR AREA!!!!  You will be glad you did...OH as a parent you should sign up too...since you are there! .....Aloha


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## bcbernam777 (Dec 6, 2006)

still learning said:


> Hello, TRY JUDO!  For small kids (young ones)  JUDO is one of the best places to start learning self-defense.
> 
> They will learn how to fall,thumble,roll, learn basic JUDO throws,hands on contact (learn faster here)!
> 
> ...



Actually thats a great idea


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 7, 2006)

still learning said:


> Hello, TRY JUDO! For small kids (young ones) JUDO is one of the best places to start learning self-defense.
> 
> For most martial arts--JUDO is a GREAT thing to add to your martial art classes or training!
> 
> FIND A JUDO CLASS IN YOUR AREA!!!! You will be glad you did...OH as a parent you should sign up too...since you are there! .....Aloha


 
I think his problems came from paying too much, not the style itself.
A judo school can be as expensive as any other martial art school, so judo has nothing to do with this conversation.

AoG


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2006)

ArmorOfGod said:


> I think his problems came from paying too much, not the style itself.
> A judo school can be as expensive as any other martial art school, so judo has nothing to do with this conversation.
> 
> AoG


 
I think Still Learning likes Judo! We teach our children basic Judo and I hate the kids when they do it! It's so easy for them, they throw themselves down and it makes my bones creak watching!
 Weapons for 4 year olds is not a good idea, we teach the older children the basics but not the tots. We do have some very soft foam nunchukus and swords which as a very special treat every so often the 4-7 years get to do but it's not part of the lessons for them. We don't ask anyone to buy weapons either, if they want to we will get them as cheap as we can for them but mostly we use the club ones.


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## Grenadier (Dec 7, 2006)

I'm assuming that your current rate is based on two classes a week?  

If you're in an affluent community, then $129 / month isn't really out of the ordinary. 

However, what gets my eyebrow raised, is that they're pushing your 4 year old son to enter the leadership program.  4 years old is about the minimum age in which people should be training in martial arts, period, and that they shouldn't be trying to overtrain, since their bodies are at a critical stage in development.  

Also, as the others have pointed out, the attention span of such young children isn't nearly that of their older counterparts.  

Now, assuming that the school is teaching good quality martial arts, at this time, I'd simply stay with the basic program, until your child is older.  Any school owner should be more than happy to upgrade a contract.


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## matt.m (Dec 7, 2006)

Welcome to MT.  First of all, I am not so much worried about the prices/packages etc. etc.  I see this kind of thing from people at other schools.  Not mine, but others.  It seems common, however.....your child is 4.  That is a flag for me.  TKD should be about the hand and eye coordination etc.  Learning poomse and the other stuff is important because it reinforces memorization.

Just my .02


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## Last Fearner (Dec 8, 2006)

still learning said:


> Hello, TRY JUDO! For small kids (young ones) JUDO is one of the best places to start learning self-defense.
> 
> FIND A JUDO CLASS IN YOUR AREA!!!! You will be glad you did...


 
Interesting that you suggested "judo!"

I found the following here:
*http://www.martial-arts-network.com/guests.php?act=viewarchive&m=5&y=2005*

*Guest : **Anthony Sanchez*
*Comments: Ocasios True Martial Arts, Black Belt Leadership Acadamy. Haverhill, Ma. Come check us out, School taught by Master Herman Ocasio, 7th Dan. American Kenpo,Ju Jitsu, Muy Tai, Judo, Boxing. This is an Eclectic style for the street. *
*Haverhill, Ma USA - Saturday, May 21, 2005 at 11:22:28 am (EST)*

So, I guess he is already learning "judo." The term I don't care for is "Eclectic." I never have liked that word when associated with the Martial Art!

I see by a web search that "Master Herman Ocasio" has more than one school, possibly even a couple in Haverhill. It also appears that there are many others to choose from, so this must be a large community.

I am never one to agree with judging a book by its cover, or a Martial Art school by its prices. I will usually charge more than any other instructor in my area because, quite frankly, I am worth more (sorry for the lack of humility here to make a point). I have been teaching longer, have more authentic credentials for which I have invested a great deal to achieve, I am a full time instructor who relies on my school's income, and, most importantly, I have more to offer students in my area.

The only question you need to ask yourself is, "do you feel you are getting your money's worth from this instructor?" In other words, "Is the price of the training worth it to you, for what your son is getting, and can you afford it?

If you feel the instructor is excellent, the school is a good one, and your son is benefiting from the classes, then nothing else matters. You don't have to sign him up for "leadership training," nor early weapons. If the additional gear includes sparring gear and other things, you should have a choice to buy or not. If it is a bit too expensive for your budget, ask if you can purchase portions of the gear as needed, or if you can buy elsewhere if they don't offer a discount.

Contracts are not a "red flag" unless you believe the school is not worth a long term investment. Children can be told what a parent expects of them. If this is an "optional hobby" that you are willing to let your son choose, then don't sign a contract because children change their minds often, and want to quit when training gets tough. Do you have problems with making commitments for yourself and your son? Whose choice is this? If it is your son's, then let him decide. If it is yours, then do not be concerned if a good quality instructor expects a commitment for a year at a fixed price that is commensurate with his knowledge, skill and ability to teach.

As for the "average" rate of tuition in the U.S., I would just say that the "*average*" instructor in the U.S. (or anywhere else for that matter) isn't worth $10.00 per month, yet they charge $50 - $60. So, statistics can be misleading. Eliminating all of the "McDojos" and "McDojangs" out there, I wonder what the "average" tuition is among the quality instructors. 

Finding the cheapest is not necessarily the best, but you might get lucky and find one of those rare gems that don't live off their school's income, yet they are a pretty good teacher. If this "Master Ocasio's" rank, credentials, and background check out as legit, and the product of his instruction (your son as well as other high ranks at his schools) are what you are looking for, then you only need to make a decision to commit to a good instructor.

I agree with the others that "leadership training" and weapons is a bit much for a young child, but not because of the price, but you must have the final choice if you elect not to place your son in this extra program. I don't fault the instructor for offering it, or charging whatever price he feels his classes are worth.

That's my opinion
CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## Cirdan (Dec 8, 2006)

Last Fearner said:


> Interesting that you suggested "judo!"
> I am never one to agree with judging a book by its cover, or a Martial Art school by its prices. I will usually charge more than any other instructor in my area because, quite frankly, I am worth more (sorry for the lack of humility here to make a point). I have been teaching longer, have more authentic credentials for which I have invested a great deal to achieve, I am a full time instructor who relies on my school's income, and, most importantly, I have more to offer students in my area.


 
I hope this is not how you advertise your school. Seeing something like this, I`d avoid it like I would a rabid grizzly bear on steroids.  
With all respect.


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## Last Fearner (Dec 9, 2006)

Cirdan said:


> I hope this is not how you advertise your school. Seeing something like this, I`d avoid it like I would a rabid grizzly bear on steroids.
> With all respect.


 
Actually, I have used many different methods of successfully advertising my schools, and myself as an instructor. I don't usually state my credentials up-front as boldly as I did in my previous post, but the point is still valid.

When I was first a student, I did not know any better as to what to seek in a school or instructor (not unlike the many beginners who come here to MT and ask questions about this very issue). As I trained longer, I began to know what qualities I valued in a teacher, how they pursued their own education, and how they treated their students.

When I decided to become an instructor, I placed the same high standards on myself to become the kind of teacher that I had been looking for, and who I believe other students would want to seek out. I took pride in researching the material thoroughly, learning from the top sources in my field, and practicing my skills so that I could demonstrate and perform to a level of which my students would respect as far as my personal efforts, abilities, and dedication were concerned. I do my best to be honest with my students, and provide them with a solid base, and a well-structured curriculum from white to Black, and beyond.

I have given extra effort to travel, attend seminars, participate in activities, and pay for "proper" credentials and certification to verify that all which I claim to have done and learned is legitimate and not made up off the top of my head. I offer my students, not only *my* years of personal sacrifice and experience, but I give them connection to Grandmasters who are well above my level and authority. Thus, if I begin to stagnate or slack off, my students are not stuck beneath me, but have the opportunity to connect and continue their training with those who are my seniors. Their ladder reaches to 9th Dan the same as mine, and they don't have to go through me to get it if I fail them.

With modesty aside, for the moment, I have worked hard to do the things that I felt were right, honest, and beneficial to myself, and my students. I have watched many other "instructors" come and go in my area over the past three decades, and most of them have not had the pride in themselves, nor the motivation, dedication, perseverance and integrity to get the proper training so they could provide these things for their students. They have settled for "earning a Black Belt" (if even that), hanging out their shingle, and taking some unsuspecting students for a ride for a few years.  They pop up all the time at the college, the YMCA, the health clubs, and charge $25.00 - $50.00 with no contracts, no commitments, and a lot of smooth talk - - then, they are gone.

I am not like that, and I truly believe that is a good thing. Therefore, I have no qualms about telling my customers the difference between me and them, and charging a higher price than other instructors, just so long as I am honest, and give my students their money's worth.  

CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## kingkong89 (Feb 1, 2007)

First Welocme And Second Yes You Are Being Charged Way To Much For You And Deffinatly Your Sons Lessons, If They Ask You To Pay For Everything Such As Weapons And Gear That Your Son May Naver Use That Is A Good Way To Tell They Are Trying To Get More Money Then You Need To Pay, My Advice Is Find A Dojo That Does Not Care That Much About Money And Worry More About Teaching You And Your Son, I Have Been In Martial Arts For 10 Great Years With A Great Sensei And Have Been Able To Enjoy Myself Nand Not Worry About Paying To Much. Good Luck And I Hope You Can Find A Better Dojo


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## matt.m (Feb 1, 2007)

that is crazy for a 4yr old and no weapons training either.  Best of luck in your search and welcome to the board.


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## pstarr (Feb 1, 2007)

WAY too much money for a four-year old.  And WEAPONS????  Nah...  You're being robbed.


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## gkygrl (Mar 20, 2008)

You've received a lot of good advice in this thread.  I am new to martial arts myself but did a ton of research (including coming to this board and reading and learning).  

Sounds like a McDojo to me -- as some others have pointed out.   Your little boy is so young -- spending so much on him and his "weapons" (red flag) does not seem appropriate.

I am sure you can find a Dojang that feels more like home.

Best of luck!


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## 7starmarc (Mar 21, 2008)

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything posted already -- you're instinct is probably your best guide -- I do want to pose a few other thoughts.

First, $129 per month, as others have said, may not be too much for a quality school, depending on your community. Probably the biggest issue I would have is the "lock in" push. It might not be a marketing scheme (many businesses know they are going to have to increase rates because of elevating costs, but want to reward previous customers for loyalty)... but there's a decent chance it is, as well.

"Leadership" programs do not necessarily exclude young children. It depends on the nature of the Leadership program. In the school I attend, it simply means access to additional class sessions and some material that they will eventually learn if they continue to train towards their black belt. There are some 4 year olds that can handle the extra class time and material, there are others who can't. It's a judgement call by the parents. As to the initiation fee for the Leadership program, it's another judgement call based on the overall value you feel you are receiving.

Belt progression is a funny thing. It really depends on the tradition of the art involved as to how much of a break "easy" belt progression is. Some styles might find it sacriledge to have easy progression even in the basic ranks. Others might have a much more lax approach. One question I might have is whether or not these belt levels are honored or backed by a larger organization (national or international). If they are, why worry? Obviously the instructor has the credentials to grant legitimate ranks in his style. Another thing you can do is check out the advanced level classes, or have a friend more familiar with martial arts check them out. Do the advanced students seem to know their stuff? Or has the easy progression diluted the skill set? "Easy" progression has its uses in some MA instructors philosophies, and not all of those uses involve separating you from your hard earned money. It is, as mentioned by others, a potential red flag.

One piece of value that only you can judge is the quality of the instructors, particularly as they relate to teaching younger students. A good instructor for this age group can be very valuable to the development of not only good skills, but a healthy attitude and a life-long love of the martial arts. I was sorry to see one our instructors move on for that reason, he was great with the younger students.

As to the weapons, at 4, it may seem a bit early, but it really depends on the child and what they are doing with the weapons in class. I have a son, coming up on 4 years old in June, and he has already gravitated to many play weapons -- I think he owns about 5 or 6 play swords (if you include lightsabers). I have tried to get him to respect even these as he should a real weapon, most of the time with some success. Most of the time, he is very appropriate with his swords. I have little doubt that he would be able to handle the basic level weapons instruction we receive at my school at a very young age, particularly in the context of a structured class. After all, he already plays Miteball (T-ball for 3 1/2 to 4 year olds) and handles a bat appropriately and effectively.

All in all, from what you have said, yes there are a number of potential red flags. What I see lacking is the complete context of the information you have provided, which may shed more light on the situation.

Checking out their website (http://www.ocasiostruemartialarts.com/welcome.html), I'm not quite sure what to think. I am often wary of schools that claim such a multitude of stylistic influences 


> "Kenpo Karate, Ju Jitsu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Kickboxing, boxing, Kali/Escrima, Muay Thai, Jeet Kune Do are just a few of the arts that have influenced our dynamic curriculum",


but it's hard to say. This would also mean that he's probably not backed by any larger governing or certifying body (as I talked about the belt discussion). As to his qualifications, I have no idea what an "Apprentice Master Instructor" is, or what he claims to have his "4th degree Black Belt" in. Having said that, in fairness, the school I attend has very little in terms of specifics on style or lineage on the (rather generic) website. But, if one visits the school, one will easily obtain specific information regarding lineage, certifications, and style.

If there are specific results that you are looking for, speak to the parents of other children in the program, and to the older students. If the results they've gotten are the ones you're looking for, that's probably as much assurance as you can get. If specific training in a traditional, recognized art is what you are looking for, this might not be the school for you or your son. The price point depends on what you can and are willing to afford.


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