# Did Jujutsu and Karate ever exchange techniques?



## Acronym (Sep 18, 2020)

In Judo atemi waza, there's a lot of similarities to very early pre war Karate with kicks only to the groin or knee, and ball of the foot as point of contact. And of course the judo chop. 

Since Karate is from Okinawa, are these overlaps in philosophy purely coincidental or did Karate borrow some of its striking and philosophy from Jujutsu? I know Judo throws had some influence on Funakoshi.


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## frank raud (Sep 18, 2020)

Look at Wado-ryu Karate.


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## dancingalone (Sep 18, 2020)

Karate is a rather big world and can refer to literally hundreds of systems with influences from China, Okinawa, Japan, Korea, USA, Europe, etc.  Not to mention the continuing cross-pollination back and forth.  They have taekwondo and kyokushin schools on Okinawa now after all.

So the answer depends on which karate you are asking about.  Certainly the founder of Wado-ryu was a jujutsu expert before learning karate from Funakoshi and he blended aspects of both to create Wado-ryu.  For 'pure' Okinawan karate styles, I would look to southern Chinese systems for their influences with low kicking.


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## Acronym (Sep 18, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Karate is a rather big world and can refer to literally hundreds of systems with influences from China, Okinawa, Japan, Korea, USA, Europe, etc.  Not to mention the continuing cross-pollination back and forth.  They have taekwondo and kyokushin schools on Okinawa now after all.
> 
> So the answer depends on which karate you are asking about.  Certainly the founder of Wado-ryu was a jujutsu expert before learning karate from Funakoshi and he blended aspects of both to create Wado-ryu.  For 'pure' Okinawan karate styles, I would look to southern Chinese systems for their influences with low kicking.




Leaving aside Wado Ryu yu where the connection is explicit. Here's what one book recounts, whi


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## Acronym (Sep 18, 2020)

Continued


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## Acronym (Sep 18, 2020)

Every single kick in atemi waza is low but powerful. E a t same philosophy as pre WW2 Karate


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## Acronym (Sep 18, 2020)

Front kick, side front kick, and stomp kick, is what the Kodokan atemi contained


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## wab25 (Sep 18, 2020)

Danzan Ryu Jujitsu and Kempo Karate certainly did. The founders of the respective arts trained together and trained each others students. The students also fought each other at events and competitions. Not only did they borrow techniques, but they outright stole techniques back and forth and even modified the way they did their own techniques to account for the other guys.


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## drop bear (Sep 18, 2020)

yeah. Kind of like how Jesus was Jewish not Christian. The founders of karate didn't do karate.


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## dancingalone (Sep 18, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Leaving aside Wado Ryu yu where the connection is explicit. Here's what one book recounts, whiView attachment 23163



So you are asking about Shotokan/Gichin Funakoshi's karate?  As I alluded to, you have to be specific when asking these kinds of questions.  Yes, Funakoshi and Kano knew each other.  At Kano's invitation Funakoshi gave a karate demonstration at the Kodokan which was very successful and gave him the avenue to stay in Japan and teach.

It is possible and maybe even likely that there was some cross-pollination there, but Funakoshi's shuri-te would have contained plenty of low kicks too.


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## Acronym (Sep 18, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> So you are asking about Shotokan/Gichin Funakoshi's karate?  As I alluded to, you have to be specific when asking these kinds of questions.  Yes, Funakoshi and Kano knew each other.  At Kano's invitation Funakoshi gave a karate demonstration at the Kodokan which was very successful and gave him the avenue to stay in Japan and teach.
> 
> It is possible and maybe even likely that there was some cross-pollination there, but Funakoshi's shuri-te would have contained plenty of low kicks too.



The historical account was Shotokan neutral. It did not single out "Shotokan" in any way until a certain change took place.


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## dancingalone (Sep 18, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The historical account was Shotokan neutral. It did not single out "Shotokan" in any way until a certain change took place.



I don't follow the distinction you are choosing to make.  Yoshitaka "Gigo" Funakoshi was Gichin's son.  He learned karate primarily from his father.  So "Shotokan" is the style being discussed in the book you are showing, though certainly there was an evolution from Gichin to Gigo to Nakayama.  

Karate is not all the same.  You have to talk specifically about the type and lineage you want to discuss.  

Good night.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 18, 2020)

Many Samurai swordsmen were well versed in jujutsu style of combat as it was possible to find oneself disarmed.  Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura (a teacher of both Funakoshi and Itosu) was also an adept in Jigen ryu swordsmanship.  While it may be unknown exactly what Matsumura learned in this Satsuma style of sword, it is quite possible that jujutsu was included in his study and may have been passed down to his karate (_toude_) students.


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## Acronym (Sep 19, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I don't follow the distinction you are choosing to make.  Yoshitaka "Gigo" Funakoshi was Gichin's son.  He learned karate primarily from his father.  So "Shotokan" is the style being discussed in the book you are showing, though certainly there was an evolution from Gichin to Gigo to Nakayama.
> 
> Karate is not all the same.  You have to talk specifically about the type and lineage you want to discuss.
> 
> Good night.



I just told you that the account prior to Gigis influence on high kicks was not pertaining to any particular Karate styles, as described in the book


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## dancingalone (Sep 19, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I just told you that the account prior to Gigis influence on high kicks was not pertaining to any particular Karate styles, as described in the book



I think we are just not communicating well with each other for whatever reason.  That is fine.  Good day.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 19, 2020)

To sum up the main question topic - There are several historical opportunities, some documented, some not, for jujutsu type techniques getting into the system of karate, some of which were already mentioned.  There was a lot of cross-fertilization in the 1800's and turn of the century since many top martial artists trained with each other.  Also in more recent times, teachers have blended other styles into their curriculum.  

All this is in addition to the native Okinawan grappling arts and early karate grabbing/twisting techniques (_tuite_).  Most of karate history involves various blendings.  Note, also, that Okinawa's location puts it in the center of trade routes between Japan, China, Philippines, and S.E. Asia.  This, no doubt, infused many martial art ideas into the development of Okinawan karate.


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## punisher73 (Sep 21, 2020)

Very short answer..."Old Style" karate (before the advent of styles) had throws (and other grappling) in it.  When Funakoshi took "karate" to Japan, he made several changes to it.  1) He changed names to sound more Japanese 2) He created the "kendo-style distancing of the kumite drills when karate was designed for close quarters 3) To differentiate it from Judo/Ju-jitsu he removed most, if not all,  of the throws/grappling to make it into a punch/block/kick striking art.  One prime example is Wansu kata.  Funakoshi changed the name to Enpi and removed the well known "fireman's carry throw" from the kata and replaced it with a jumping/spinning move.  Other changes included how the class was set up and taught (going from a family style training to military style of rank line ups and coordinated movements with everyone doing it the exact same way).

Jigoro Kano helped Funakoshi a lot with making the art more acceptable to the Japanese culture.


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## Buka (Sep 21, 2020)

Every person I've ever known in the Martial world has learned things from people outside of their own dojo. The few that haven't...haven't been out of their own dojo yet.


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## KenpoDave (Sep 22, 2020)

The book “Secrets of the Samurai” states that jujutsu encompassed the unarmed fighting methods and that the striking and kicking arts were part of that. Essentially, the karate styles are evolutions of systemized, isolated practice of a subset of jujutsu. All karate techniques are jujutsu techniques. Not all jujutsu techniques are karate techniques.

This is not to disparage karate. The same book comments that the practitioner who isolated and became expert in the striking and kicking arts made his jujutsu much more formidable.


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## punisher73 (Sep 22, 2020)

KenpoDave said:


> The book “Secrets of the Samurai” states that jujutsu encompassed the unarmed fighting methods and that the striking and kicking arts were part of that. Essentially, the karate styles are evolutions of systemized, isolated practice of a subset of jujutsu. All karate techniques are jujutsu techniques. Not all jujutsu techniques are karate techniques.
> 
> This is not to disparage karate. The same book comments that the practitioner who isolated and became expert in the striking and kicking arts made his jujutsu much more formidable.



That book is known to not be entirely historically accurate.  There was a big "re-write" by the Japanese to remove all traces of Chinese influence and reference as to where their karate came from.  I am NOT saying that their jujutsu didn't have "atemi waza" striking to it, but it was not the developed skill set that was introduced from karate. JJJ used their strikes much like aikido does.  A quick strike to facilitate a lock/throw/takedown, but it was never the primary technique in the older JJJ.  This was also one of the main reasons that Kano exchanged ideas with Funakoshi and added defenses against karate techniques to their curriculum, it was something they hadn't seen before in that manner.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 22, 2020)

KenpoDave said:


> The book “Secrets of the Samurai” states that jujutsu encompassed the unarmed fighting methods and that the striking and kicking arts were part of that. Essentially, the karate styles are evolutions of systemized, isolated practice of a subset of jujutsu. All karate techniques are jujutsu techniques. Not all jujutsu techniques are karate techniques.
> 
> This is not to disparage karate. The same book comments that the practitioner who isolated and became expert in the striking and kicking arts made his jujutsu much more formidable.



No doubt that jujutsu techniques found their way into karate as stated in my previous 2 posts on this thread.  But to say karate is a subset of jujutsu is taking it way too far IMO.  It seems you (or the book) are saying that if you take all that is not kicking or striking out of jujutsu you have karate, or what evolved into karate.  

In the Chinese "Bubishi" there are descriptions of White Crane and Monk Fist kung fu techniques that closely resemble modern Okinawan karate moves which were partly founded on these kung fu styles.  There are also grappling and locking moves described in that book.  I don't know of any Samurai teaching jujutsu to the Chinese?

The Ryukyu Kingdom also had its native self defense "styles" that were incorporated into karate.

Suffice it to say that karate is a product of several independent art sources blended together which came into its own by the early 1800's and further evolved throughout that century.


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## Jeff_Beish (Sep 25, 2020)

In the early 1960’s while learning Shorinryu karate on Okinawa many of my fellow students and sensei also practiced Judo in local dojos, including the Naha Police Dojo ("Butoku-den" Dojo). Sometimes for fun we would play Judo on the wooden floors and most everyone was proficient in Judo and/or jujitsu.  Ukemi was an art then 

Also,  one of the Police Dojo Judo sensei, chairman of Okinawa Judo Federation, was also the head Gojuryu karate masters.  We considered Judo as a Martial Art and sport back then, before the International crowd took over control and made it into something like Sumo or free style wrestling. Yeah, go ahead and fuss, I’m old school from my start in 1952.


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## dancingalone (Sep 25, 2020)

[QUOTE="Jeff_Beish, post: 2012889, member: 32948"
Also,  one of the Police Dojo Judo sensei, chairman of Okinawa Judo Federation, was also the head Gojuryu karate masters.  [/QUOTE]
Eiichi Miyazato.  One of Chojun Miyagi's foremost students and founder of the Jundokan.  A giant in Goju-ryu.


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## Star Dragon (Sep 26, 2020)

Okinawan Karate styles to this day include what is called _tuite_ - joint locking techniques that are indeed similar or identical to methods practised in Ju-jutsu. However, their origin mostly lies in China, especially in the Chin-na methods of the White Crane style, whence they were imported to the Ryukyu islands along with much of the rest of what eventually became known as Karate.

The parallels to Ju-jutsu may at least partially be explained by the fact that the latter art has its roots in Chinese martial arts as well, as some historians assure us.

On a personal note, I will never forget how surprised I was to see variations of several techniques I knew from the Aikido I was studying at the time demonstrated in a Chinese Kung-fu movie! That was long before I acquired a more detailed knowledge about the history of the martial arts. Today I can make sense of it, however, as Aikido has its roots in Daito-ryu, which is essentially a style of (Aiki-)Ju-jutsu, so there you have the link to Chin-na and Kung-fu again.

It goes without saying that there are only so many ways to bend any given joint of the human body, so you will naturally find certain parallels between martial art systems from all different times and cultures.

But beyond that, and besides the very common phenomenon of cross pollination, of course, it is a good idea to also explore possible common origins when considering obvious similarities between distinct arts. Sometimes you may indeed be quite surprised by what you find!


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## Jeff_Beish (Sep 26, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> [QUOTE="Jeff_Beish, post: 2012889, member: 32948"
> Also,  one of the Police Dojo Judo sensei, chairman of Okinawa Judo Federation, was also the head Gojuryu karate masters.


Eiichi Miyazato.  One of Chojun Miyagi's foremost students and founder of the Jundokan.  A giant in Goju-ryu.[/QUOTE]

A couple photos of Miyazato sensei


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## Jeff_Beish (Sep 26, 2020)

PHOTO -- Miyazato Ei'ichi O'Sensei - Goju Ryu Karate-Do Okinawa and President of the Okinawan Judo Federation.  TOP: Photo of Miyazato at barracks window on Johnson Air Base, Japan (1962).  BOTTOM: Miyazato Judo class at Kadana AB; Kneeling, L to R- Ree C. Fitzpatrick, Patrick J. Goldsworthy, Ei'ichi Miyazato (Sensei), Dean Tower, ? Matthews, name (?).Standing: L to R- Steve Vorweck, name(?), Dave Gorden, Walt Conlon (1962).  Sorry, I took the photos and was not in either one 

Since Miyazato sensei was President of the Okinawan Judo federation the U.S. Air Force would invite him to accompany the Air Force Judo Team from Okinawa to Japan when we needed a coach.   He liked that because it was a free trip to Japan to see relatives and catch up on politics.   He was a very good Judoka as well as Goju-ryu karate master.  I remember once he drove me to his new dojo in north side of Naha and allowed me to train there for an hour or so.  After that I would go up once a week to train and learn from him.  Goju is a very different type of karate that I was used to and I was usually drained of energy after practice. At any rate I would never practice Matsubayashi-ryu or Goju-ryu karate formerly at a dojo again.  Miyazato sensei passed away in 1999.   Eiichi Miyazato : biography - Eiichi Miyazato biography, Early life, Later life, Karate career

He was quite jovial and an interesting person who liked Americans.  Several times a few of us young GI’s would help him clean up and straighten up around the   “Garden dojo,” that was handed down from Miyagi sensei after he died in the 1950’s.   He tried to get me to leave Nagamine sensei’s dojo and take up Goguryu, but I told him it was too hard on me.  However, I did workout with him some and he taught me a lot of both Judo and Goyu karate.


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