# How many fights have you been in, so far, in your life?



## Ninway J (Jan 18, 2004)

I'm interested to find out, from the Martial Talk community, how many fights each member has been in his/her life.

Any fight, meaning serious situations where you had to physically defend yourself from a person or persons because a)you thought there was a chance a person might seriously hurt you physically, or b) you thought there was a chance a person might end your life at that moment.

If you want, please tell us your story and your age now(approximate if you want).


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## MA-Caver (Jan 19, 2004)

In other posts and other topics here on Martial Talk I've described, though not in heavy detail, my past altercations to help make my point via my experience(s). Since I voted "more than five" it would be difficult for me to choose even one that would best suit the purpose of "this" topic.  
I'll say that I've been unfortunate to have been in so many physical confrontations/altercations. Some yeah, where I was defending mine or someone else's life but others were just stupid hot-headed arguments that ended in fisticuffs. 
I do have stories of select "fights that I feel would be of benefit to other MA's old and new for instructional/educational purposes but I won't remit them here. There are other forums on MT that will be an appropriate place.

Are you wanting war-stories? Or do you have a point to this knowledge? 

Just wondering.

:asian:


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## jwreck (Jan 19, 2004)

I worked in the bar business for many years, so I've been in my fair share of altercations. Some were mine, and some were between patrons that warrented my involvement.


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## KanoLives (Jan 19, 2004)

I voted for 3....but not sure if they really count as fights.

The first happened when I was about 8 or so. My brothers and I were hangin out in front of my house. I have 3 brothers. When a group of 5 kids came down our street. They started saying something, don't remember what. Next thing I knew 3 of the big kids jumped my older brother while the other 2 came after my other brother and I. My youngest brother ran in the house crying(he was like 5) to get my mom. The kid that came after me tried to grab me from behind, I flipped him over me and got into a mount. I didn't throw any punches instead I grabbed his neck and squeezed as hard as I could. I remember the look on his face. It looked as if his eyes were gonna pop. Luckily the lady next door came running and screaming down the street. And my mom had come outside. I let the kid up and the 5 of them took of running. My older brother took a good beatin and my other brother punched the kid that came after him in the mouth and he went down cryin. The cops found them but my mom didn't press charges in fear that they would come back. The funny thing is that the kids who came after us were about the same age as my brothers and I.

The next one is really stupid again I was like 10 or so and at summer camp. This kid kept threatening me that he was gonna hit me. So without hesitation I popped him square in the mouth. Knocked out one of his front teeth. The next day on the bus to camp the kid's mother came on the bus and yelled at me about knocking his tooth out. I'll admit I got scared and started tearing up. His mom then stopped yelling and I apologized to him and his mom. Funny thing with this is that 3 years later I was on the same soccer team as this kid. And we were friends.

And last but not least I was a junior in high school. I had history class and the teacher was out so we had a sub. So the sub told us we could work on whatever we want. So pretty much no one did anything but hang out. Some how this kid started making fun of me. Now this kid was on the football team and he stood about 6' 5" and weighed about 2 change. Big kid. Anywho, it was all fun and games at first and I laughed with him and stuff. I'm not the type to take things seriously. I'll laugh when ya joke about me. But then he started to get really stupid and I told him enough was enough. He kept going. Again I told him enough was enough. But again he kept going. I told him to stop at least 4 or 5 times. Now I started to get super pissed. He then proceeded to start talking about my family (mom, dad, brothers) and I had it. I warned him not to say one more thing. And at this time in my mind I said to myself if he says one more thing it's on. So he said something again about my family. Without hesitation I jumped up and at the same time slid my history book into my left  hand (i'm left handed). Quickly told my friend who sat next to me to duck and flung my history book at him. I tell ya I couldn't do it again in a million years but the corner of the history book hit the kid right in the outside corner of his eye and busted him open pretty bad. Blood started pouring out. The kid jumped up (with the desk still aound his waist) and started to come charging at me knocking over more desks on his way. As he got close he was swinging haymakers so I ducked and and came up. Just as I was about to launch a punch the substitue had already pulled the kid away. I ended up getting a 2 day suspension for that. And he was still talking madoodie in the principle's office. And I almost went after him again. 

Well that's my fighting history. And like I said I don't really consider them fights. I really try to avoid fightin anyway possible and it really takes alot for me to want to fight. 

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for reading. :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jan 19, 2004)

I grew up in a rough city neighborhood.  I worked for four years as a security guard on a college campus and I now teach at a school for adjudicated youth.  Consequently, violence has always been part of my profession.  Yet, I can honestly say that I have only ever been in one fight.  A gang member pulled a knife on me and came in with a fast number 6.  The only thing that stopped by belly from getting slashed open was my leather jacket.  I grabbed his arm and fell on it.  Breaking it, I took the knife which I grabbed and threw out the window.  One of his friends hit me from behind with a beer bottle and nearly knocked me out.  By then my friend had jumped in to save my butt.  I stood up and was kind of woosey, another guy was coming with a baseball bat and more were coming in the front door.  I grabbed my friend and we ran out the back.  They chased us for four blocks and gave up.  I have twenty stitches in the back of my head from that night.  

That is a fight.  None of the violence I have ever dealt with in my life has ever come close to that.


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## Ninway J (Jan 20, 2004)

Excellent replies and stories, everyone.

I, myself, cannot really say that I've been in any struggle to physically protect myself or anyone from death or serious harm, so I voted zero.  I, too, was a security officer once for about 9 years, and I've been struck in the face once, been called-out many times, and I put an unruly person in a hold once, but nothing to constitute a full-blown fight from death or injury for me.  Back in school, earlier in my life, I've been called-out, but nothing came of it.  I'm in my late-twenties now.

I'm curious, and I'm sure others are as well, to know other people's experiences and to see the poll.  I'd also like to know if you started learning martial arts because you were in a serious fight before, and I'd like to see how learning martial arts helps you in a serious fight.

I'm a bit surprised to see, from the poll, that quite a few people have already voted that they've been in 5 or more serious fights in their life.  When I made the poll, I had no idea that there would be so many people in that category, so by all means, please state how many in your post if you'd like.  I also do realize that there are people here that come from "bad" neigborhoods, and military veterans as well.

Thanks all!


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## spatulahunter (Jan 20, 2004)

Ive probably been in over 100 fights in my life but for the credibility i choose 1. Reason being i dont really count anything from when i was a little kid. when i was young thats what we did, we beat each other up but thats what a lot of young guys do. 
I have only been in one _real_  fight which was before my martial arts training and rather uneventful (yes i won ). Since i have started taking martial arts i have probably walked away from at least 4 or 5 different situations where people wanted to show how much testosterone their body could produce simply because its not worth someone getting hurt over


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## clapping_tiger (Jan 20, 2004)

I have been in many fights, but since I have been in the martial arts I have not been in a single one. I guess one would say I am lucky in that way. I have no single story to tell, all my fights were pretty much the same thing, I punched the hell out of people. I did get arrested once for beating a guy up, and from there I pretty much learned my lesson. What is kind of interesting is what led me to be such a "bully" at the time. 

When I was a kid I was picked on and beaten up on pretty regularly, I was the skinny blond hair kid with thick glasses. How could you not beat me up. I was an easy target. Then in about 9th grade, I fought back for the first time and beat the heck out of the guy who was picking a fight with me. From that momement on, I found out I could fight, and since I was picked on for so long, I had some aggression to get out. I kept up this behavior until my mid 20's. I have even fought 2 guys at the same time. But I have mellowed out a lot over the past few years and I owe it all to the martial arts. To a laymen it would sound ironic wouldn't it. A fighting art has taught me how not to fight.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 20, 2004)

Any fight that you can "win" is not a real fight.  A real fight is any fight you "survive".  All else is violence for social dominance - not fighting.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by clapping_tiger _
> * To a laymen it would sound ironic wouldn't it. A fighting art has taught me how not to fight. *



Not really...when you think about it...  

:asian:


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## Ninway J (Jan 20, 2004)

clapping_tiger, martial arts taugh you how not to fight.  Very kewl.  I've heard many martial artists say that about themselves too.  I can say the same for myself as well.  So you fought 2 guys at once?  That must've been a real battle.  I'm glad you're here to tell about it.

It's great to see the survivors posting here.


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## pesilat (Jan 20, 2004)

I went 5 or more. Though most of them don't actually meet your criteria of a "fight."

By your criteria, I guess I've been in about 4 fights.

The others were situations where I had to restrain my step-son. He was 14 when I met my wife. He's 23 now. He's got some mental problems - technically "Asperger Syndrome" - but with occasional episodes of schizophrenia. On occasion, he would get violent.

He never really attacked me, though he thought about it a few times. He did attack is father once - I was nearby but let his father deal with it (which only seems proper to me).

He never attacked my wife - though she says he was occasionally violent toward her before she met me, she'd gotten him cured of that about a year before she met me.

Usually, I was restraining him to prevent him from hurting himself or tearing up the house (i.e.: punching/kicking holes in walls and such).

But while that's not quite in the criteria you put, I tell ya right now, trying to restrain a mentally unbalanced person who's in the midst of a schizophrenic episode is most definitely a fight. And it was even more difficult than a "regular" fight because I had to do everything I could to _not_ hurt him.

When someone's attacking me, I don't care if they get hurt or not. They earned what abuse they take. Believe me, it's much easier to finish a guy - i.e.: knock him out or disable him - than it is to restrain him without hurting him.

So, back to the point, that's why I put 5+ 

Mike


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## Ninway J (Jan 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *But while that's not quite in the criteria you put, I tell ya right now, trying to restrain a mentally unbalanced person who's in the midst of a schizophrenic episode is most definitely a fight. And it was even more difficult than a "regular" fight because I had to do everything I could to not hurt him.
> 
> When someone's attacking me, I don't care if they get hurt or not. They earned what abuse they take. Believe me, it's much easier to finish a guy - i.e.: knock him out or disable him - than it is to restrain him without hurting him.
> ...



While not fitting the criteria, though it is a very good point!  I can see how it could be much more challenging to physically control someone, while he/she is out of control, and you're preventing anyone from being hurt, or anything from being damaged.

I can see how CONTROL, in these terms, can be a very important aspect to train in martial arts.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 22, 2004)

I found myself very irritated as the number of people with five or more fights climbed.  As a martial artist, I believe, we have a duty to de-escalate violent situations.  I know that lots of these "fights" occurred in the "stupid youth" stage, yet it is my hope that MA has taught many of you more appropriate ways to deal with conflict.  My question is this, has training in MA reduced the amount of violence in your life?


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## pesilat (Jan 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *I found myself very irritated as the number of people with five or more fights climbed.  As a martial artist, I believe, we have a duty to de-escalate violent situations.  I know that lots of these "fights" occurred in the "stupid youth" stage, yet it is my hope that MA has taught many of you more appropriate ways to deal with conflict.  My question is this, has training in MA reduced the amount of violence in your life? *



Absolutely. Though I started when I was 8, I still had that "stupid youth" stage. We all did. 2 of my fights happened during "stupid youth."

The 3rd, I was caught unprepared and forced to defend myself - I filled my tank up, went inside to pay, and when I came out there was a guy I'd never met sitting on the hood of my car smoking a cigarette. I asked him to get off my car so I could go home. He said I'd have to wait until he finished his cigarette. I said, "OK. Hope you can hold on when I hit the interstate." I reached for the doorhandle, he hopped off the car and punched me in the nose. It wasn't particularly hard punch - I vividly remember thinking, "Man, my *friends* hit me harder than that" - but it did start my nose bleeding. I was tired and wanted to go home. I told him, "Look, I just want to go home and get some sleep. I'm going to get in the car and leave. If you attack again, you'll go to the hospital." He swung again. I caught and broke his arm (might have just dislocated his elbow - didn't pay too much attention - but there was a nice loud crack) kicked him in the chest to get him away from me, then I got in the car and drove home.

The 4th was at a party to cheer up my sister after her fiance backed out of their wedding 3 days beforehand. Some "friends of a friend" showed up at the party and started causing trouble. One thing led to another and a fight broke out. Me and a buddy of mine became de facto bouncers and kept the situation from escalating to an all-out brawl.

After that (and that was '92) all of my fights have been the ones where I was restraining my step-son. I'm a huge advocate of de-escalation or, better yet, complete avoidance of conflicts/fights. Unfortunately that's not always possible regardless of skill level. 

We all have lines that can't be crossed. For instance, I can't walk away when there's a person or animal being abused - doesn't mean I start a fight, but I have to take action and if a fight ensues, so be it. If someone threatens me or my loved ones, I have to take action - by "threatens" I mean they make or pose a threat that I consider authentic, if they're just blowing hot air, I don't care one way or another but if I think they're serious, I have to do something.

Like my dad told me when I was starting 1st grade - "Never start a fight. But if someone crosses your lines then they've already started a fight. If someone starts a fight, do your level best to finish it."

I don't agree at all with people (MAist or not) going out and looking for fights. But sometimes the fight is brought to us. If de-escalation is possible then I think we should try to de-escalate. But de-escalation almost always means compromise. If they've done something that is beyond compromise, then there's no other recourse. Action must be taken - whether "action" = "fight" will vary from situation to situation.

Other things to consider about this subject:

1. "in your life" - 5 fights is a lot for a young guy but may not be so many for a guy who's lived a bit longer.

2. "stupid youth" - the length of this stage can vary by a *very* large number of years. Hopefully training in MA shortens it but some people are slow learners.

3. What is the person's job? People who work in security and law enforcement will tend to have more fights than people who don't.

4. Where and under what circumstances did the person grow up? There are places in the world (including America) where fighting is a necessary tool of survival on a daily basis.

There are probably other factors that weigh into this but these are the first ones that come to mind. The question is very subjective so you can't judge everyone on the same criteria you've experienced in your life.

Mike


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Jan 22, 2004)

I have been in more then 5 fights in my life.

The funny thing is when I was younger. I always wondered how would my martial arts training work under a real condition. In class and tournaments everything went well. But, how would it work on the street someday when it would happen like that and there was no time for anything else but to react.
It worked great. The various times when I did have to deal with a situation, I simply reacted and it just flowed out of me without thought. I guess everyone always wonders what they will do when push comes to shove and a situation occurs.
As for me it worked out great. I didnt get a scratch and I was able to deal with the attackers.

Has anyone else had some doubts at one time or another ? 

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:


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## pesilat (Jan 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Chicago Green Dragon _
> *Has anyone else had some doubts at one time or another ?*



Absolutely. It's part of the developmental process. And I don't think it ever ends. There's always another hurdle to get over and there's always some doubts about whether we can make it. It may not be just about "can I functionalize what I know" - it may be about teaching or dealing with a troublemaker or whatever. It's those hurdles - and our overcoming of them - that enable us to grow and improve both as MAists and as people.

Mike


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## Makalakumu (Jan 22, 2004)

I worked as a bouncer, a security guard, and as a teacher in a school for adjudicated youth.  Violence is part of my profession.  Everybody at my school has been trained to deal with situations.  In fact, most of the teachers here are MA students of mine.  I'm not bragging, though.  I want to make a point about de-escalation.  It works.  It all starts with remaining calm.  Then, if you say the correct things and you stand with correct postures and if you know where to give and where to stand, you can talk someone down.  I am, and have been, the highest skilled person on the job when it comes to violence.  And yet, because of my MA training, I have had to use my skills the least.  I am not bragging.  I just want to make a point.  99% of "fights" you face are situations that could pass without a blow.  Sure, there is a line when violence becomes the only option and when that line is crossed my response is swift and totally unfair.  Yet even when people cross the "line" it is possible to get them back over without fighting.  Just think about it.  

Proving your martial skill isn't worth it.  Trust yourself instead.  Peace is the only perfect self-defense.  :soapbox: 

upnorthkyosa


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## pesilat (Jan 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *99% of "fights" you face are situations that could pass without a blow. Sure, there is a line when violence becomes the only option and when that line is crossed my response is swift and totally unfair. Yet even when people cross the "line" it is possible to get them back over without fighting. Just think about it.
> 
> Proving your martial skill isn't worth it.  Trust yourself instead.  Peace is the only perfect self-defense.  :soapbox:
> ...



<g> You missed my point - or, more likely, I didn't phrase it very well.

The number 5 is very subjective. Like you said, "99%" of situations - and I agree. But if your life - for whatever reason - puts you into a lot of situations, then 5 may well be "99%"

Of course, 99% = 5 means 500+ fights. But as you previously mentioned "stupid youth" can often account for several - even all 5.

I've done some security work - ironically, none of the fights I was in were part of that work. But none of my security work was in high risk areas.

For the record, I agree 100% with what you're saying. I'm partially playing devil's advocate but my primary point is that this is such a subjective question that it's hard to say whether 5 is a little or a lot when you don't know the people or their backgrounds. Some people just have bad luck. Some people have good luck. Some people have habitual "hoof in mouth" disease and their foot in their mouth lands them in trouble they can't de-escalate. There are thousands of reasons why a given person might be involved in 5+ fights over the course of a lifetime. I think that's my point 

And, I know, there are thousands of reasons why a given person might never be involved in a single fight over the course of a lifetime. But without knowing someone's background/history, it's hard to say whether their 5+ fights is a lot or a little - much less whether some/many/all of those fights could have been avoided.

Mike


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## Ninway J (Jan 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *<g> You missed my point - or, more likely, I didn't phrase it very well.
> 
> The number 5 is very subjective. Like you said, "99%" of situations - and I agree. But if your life - for whatever reason - puts you into a lot of situations, then 5 may well be "99%"
> ...



Good point pesilat.  This is precisely the reason why I'd like people to post their story, their age, as well as how many serious fights they've been in in their life, so that we aren't just looking at a number, but we can be able to see some sort of correlation or reason and understand as to why they've been in a certain number of serious fights.

upnorthkyosa, I absolutely agree with what you are saying as well.

I realize that people have different opinions on what constitutes a serious fight, as I have mentioned in my beginning post.  For the people that posted, to me it is valuable information, because I get to see why they voted the way they did.  Taking pesilat for example.  He mentioned that, by my criteria, he has been in only 4 serious fights, but he voted 5 or more because of reasons that are his own.  I now understand his point of view.  I'd like for everyone to do this, but I know that a lot of people that vote on the poll may not want tell their story for one reason or another.

I'm learning so much from this thread, and I hope you all are too.:asian:


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## Zepp (Jan 22, 2004)

Does it count if it happened when you were really young and you started it?


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## jwreck (Jan 22, 2004)

So what do you consider a "serious" fight? I answered based on the criteria of whether or not blows were exchanged (or attempted in some cases). So if I ask a guy politely to leave, he throws a punch, and I lock him up and walk him outside, does that count? Or do only "Lets go outside and settle this" one on one ongoing battles count? You can't post a very non-specific question and then get annoyed because you don't like the answer. 

Just for reference, most of my fights have been the guy throws a punch at me or someone else and I lock them up kind. However, I've been in everything from one on one, to I don't even know how many on 5. 

I'll give you the most humbling figt I've ever been in. I was working at the bar, but was very sick, so I'd gone to the back to puke. On the way back I see two punks in front of my bar about to fight. WEll, just as I walk up, they start swinging. Both these guys are about 5'5", 135 lbs, so I decide to collar them both and take them outside. About the time I get my hands on each neck, the guy in my left hand pulls a knife. Withou even thinking I flung him away from me. Then I got hit from behind by somebody (a friend of someone involved I'm sure) and next thing I know, I'm on the ground with the guy in my right hand on top of me, and a guy with a knife that I'd lost track of. Lucky for me, that's when some of my bouncers showed up. They were worried about the people standing up fighting and didn't even see me with this guy sitting on my head. They guy on top of me managed to hit me in the face once before I managed to control his wrists. Then I just kinda held on (being sick I was so weak I couldn't get this 135 lb dude off me ) By the time it was over, I was told that ther were 8 people involved plus the two bouncers and me. No one ever found the guy with the knife, but I feel luck as hell to have not been cut. As it was, I was still picking glass from beer bottles out of my legs (I was wearing shorts) for quite a while afterwqards. (note: groundfigting on a barfloor is a VERY bad idea  ) Needless to say, I never underestimated people after that, and I never tried to collar two guys at once again.


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## Zoran (Jan 23, 2004)

In my early youth I grew up in a rough neighborhood. There were several, about 1 a month from age 6 to 12. Two thirds of which I spent running my a$$ off.

When we moved to the burbs, I had 3-4 that had more to do with ego than brains.

During my MA years, 1981 to now. I had no fights until I started working in security in a high crime area (was around to witness a couple drive-by shootings). Then I worked as a bouncer. Most of those conflicts went to a controlling technique. Only a couple really turned into something ugly, which usually involved being out numbered. 



> I found myself very irritated as the number of people with five or more fights climbed. As a martial artist, I believe, we have a duty to de-escalate violent situations. I know that lots of these "fights" occurred in the "stupid youth" stage, yet it is my hope that MA has taught many of you more appropriate ways to deal with conflict. My question is this, has training in MA reduced the amount of violence in your life?



I don't understand why people seem to think that "knowing how" somehow turns someone into Mother Theresa. Being a martial artist does not trun me into a pasafist or a warmonger. There are things that are worth fighting for. I will _stand my ground_ when it's an issue of morals, principles or honor. Maybe not a popular ideal these days, which is what makes me a dinasaur.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *I will stand my ground when it's an issue of morals, principles or honor. Maybe not a popular ideal these days, which is what makes me a dinasaur. *



I, also, will stand my ground.  My two year old daughter, last summer, decided to throw a tantrum in the rotunda of the nations capitol this summer.  We were on a tour and this was in the middle of a speech.  I was across the room watching as a chinese man went over to my wife and told her to leave because my daughter was interupting the tour.  Then he took a swipe at my child.  My wife picked her up and stiff armed the guy.  When he grabbed her arm and started to pull her.  I put my hand on his arm and told him to let go.  He said we had to leave and then proceeded to jerk hard on my wife's arm.  I applied joint lock and swept his feet with hosotogari, putting him on his back to free my wife...And then got tackled by security.  When the mess was straightened out, the man was arrested and I was released without charges.  (the fact that I used appropriate levels of force helped me in this instance - no one was hurt and the conflict ended quickly)  I will say that only when the other guy was on the ground, did the security even notice what was going on.  (So much for terrorism preparedness)  

There was an opportunity to de-escalate in this situation and it didn't work.  Is this considered a fight?  Maybe...this type of situation is pretty normal at my job, though, excepting that it rarely escalates.  The only reason in this instance that I quickly resorted to technique was because he was harrassing my family.  What I have a problem with is the macho man MAist who makes no attempt to try to de-escalate and resorts immediately to the training because the want to "try it out".  MA doesn't make people pacifists.  It makes people "pass the fist" in favor of other methods first.


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## Ty K. Doe (Jan 23, 2004)

one when i was 13 and one when i was 17.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ninway J _
> *I'm interested to find out, from the Martial Talk community, how many fights each member has been in his/her life.
> 
> Any fight, meaning serious situations where you had to physically defend yourself from a person or persons because a)you thought there was a chance a person might seriously hurt you physically, or b) you thought there was a chance a person might end your life at that moment.
> ...



I voted for more than 5, not jsut because, and not to make light of those who have had less. For those are the smart ones in life.

A) Those where I thought I might be seriously hurt. This would be just about every fight with 4 or more people. This does not mean I could not get hurt, by one or two, for I have. I am just saying, that this was / is when I kicked it up.

B) Those where I could have my life ended, are where they had knives, cars, trucks, bats, guns, 2x4's and not just flashed or brandished. Actually pointed, aimed, targeted, swung at, you get the picture.

I really do wish I could look back and say I only had one or two serious fights and those were just trying to get away.

:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 23, 2004)

when I was young I had more than a few. fists, feet, sticks, rocks, for the most part. A few knives can into the picture in my early middle teens.
after I started in the martial arts only a couple of fights. Street thugs after money or anything they might have thought I might be carrying that could be turned into money for drugs.
I learned from these what worked and what didn't and what stoped someone quickly. 
Can not say i am proud of any of them but they where a learning experence. 
What I am proud of are those situations that could have ended in a fight but didn't for reasons that differed in each situation


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## dearnis.com (Jan 23, 2004)

What is a serious fight?  great question.  blows exchanged?  Weapons?  Someone goes to the hospital?

I think that this poll could probably be broken down a lot further.   I know my numbers are high, but 5 years as a street cop before switching to a less, um, direct contact position will do that.  I certainly had periods at work where I could top 5 fights in a bad week; just a fuction of the district I worked at the time.  On the other hand it has been many years since I had a non work-related fight.

Maybe a more interesting poll would be "how many potential fights have you de-escalated?"


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## Ninway J (Jan 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *What is a serious fight?  great question.  blows exchanged?  Weapons?  Someone goes to the hospital?
> 
> I think that this poll could probably be broken down a lot further.   I know my numbers are high, but 5 years as a street cop before switching to a less, um, direct contact position will do that.  I certainly had periods at work where I could top 5 fights in a bad week; just a fuction of the district I worked at the time.  On the other hand it has been many years since I had a non work-related fight.
> ...



Kewl dearnis.com.  You should start the poll.  

I guess my poll could also be named "how many fights have you tried de-escalating, but ended-up in a fight, or just started off as a fight without attempting, or had no chance of, de-escalation"

I'm not making fun, I'm just trying to make a point.

dearnis.com.  By you mentioning that you are in law enforcement, I think that's nuff-said as far as telling your story.  I think we all would agree that law enforcement, military, and people in rough neigborhoods get into far more dangerous situations than anyone else.


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## TonyM. (Jan 24, 2004)

This thread has me thinking how strange life can be. I dislike fighting yet I have been in many. I suppose all the environmental markers for fighting are in place. 
1. Grew up in rough neighborhoods in rural Louisianna and West Virginia. Also urban Baltimore and DC.
2. Have baby face that bullies and gay bashers love to attack.
3. Am multiethnic (Cherokee of mixed blood) Growing up in predominately WASP neighborhoods.
4. Am opinionated with big mouth and lack of control keeping it closed. (organic problem-asperger's disorder)
5.Served in Co. A 75th INF. Rangers, Airborne in RVN. (Constantly challenged or attacked by non airborne or ranger soldiers.)
6.Former Correctional Officer for the State of Vermont.
Fortunately I have learned avoidance and de-escalation well and have not had to fight in a number of years.


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## dearnis.com (Jan 24, 2004)

Tony-

I think just Louisiana does it.  What a strange place....the most odd mix of laid back and casually violent.   I lived in New Orleans for 10 years or so (also managing to get into the rural areas often); the things you see......


(and this was years before I became a cop...)


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## TonyM. (Jan 24, 2004)

Yes, Louisianna is a strange place. Hasn't decided if it's part of the south or even the states for that matter.
LOL, I bet you could write a book about what you've seen after you became an officer.
                                        Tony


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## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TonyM. _
> *Fortunately I have learned avoidance and de-escalation well and have not had to fight in a number of years. *



Your experience, very much supports my point.  99% of "fights" could pass with out a fist being thrown.  De-escalation works.


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## dearnis.com (Jan 25, 2004)

Tony-
  The book (or books) are coming.... someday.
  And you hit it on the head; South Lousiana, at least, is not even really part of the states.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by dearnis.com _
> *Tony-
> The book (or books) are coming.... someday.
> And you hit it on the head; South Lousiana, at least, is not even really part of the states. *



Chad,

If you need help with a person to read them before hand, I am available. I enjoy a good story form time to time. It makes me feel better about myself 

:asian:


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## Tae Kwon Doughboy (Jan 25, 2004)

As a kid I got beat up so many times it wasn't funny. Smaller than most at the time. I was never really in the fights. I was more of a punching bag because my dad was a minister and he felt turning the other cheek was the only option.

I really wanted to take some form of martial art but wasn't allowed.


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## Ninway J (Jan 26, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tae Kwon Doughboy _
> *I really wanted to take some form of martial art but wasn't allowed. *



Hmm, interesting, Doughboy.  My parent was the same way with me as far as not wanting me to take a martial art.  I finally started a few months after I turned 18.


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jan 26, 2004)

I have had my fair share of encounters. In my younger years of learning, I was taught great morals, values, and to always be a protector of justice. Unfortunately, I mis-interpreted some of the values and looked to deliver justice by seeking out bullies and troubles of the sort. I often had a tendency to get involved with problems and situations that weren't my own... and I still do . Consequently, it gets me into alot of un-necessary conflicts, and I'm thankful that none have cost me greatly.



THuNdeR_FoOT:asian:


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## TonyM. (Jan 26, 2004)

Doughboy. I always thought turning the other cheek was a feign tactic.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Tae Kwon Doughboy _
> *As a kid I got beat up so many times it wasn't funny. Smaller than most at the time. I was never really in the fights. I was more of a punching bag because my dad was a minister and he felt turning the other cheek was the only option.
> 
> I really wanted to take some form of martial art but wasn't allowed. *



Wow, I thought my parents were the only legalistic crazy ones!   I was not allowed to take martial arts as a kid, it didn't stop me, as my best friends parents took me and paid for it without my parents knowing for a few years. But, my parents were missionaries, so it was easier to get stuff by on them, especially when they were in the Ukraine, and I was here.

7sm


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## ThirdDegreeBurn (Feb 1, 2004)

I was in several fights during the six months I was on the streets (family kicked me out, long story) but I voted only one fight.  Truth is, I would only consider a fight to fit the criteria you put if someone got injured. Many times all it took was demonstrating to the person that I am quite capable of defending myself or perhaps putting them into a control technique to get them to listen to reason.

As for the fight that I couldn't do that with, I started. I have no tolerance for guys who abuse their girlfriends or really, any girl for that matter. I see it, I snap. I'm not proud of it, but it's a part of who I am.

As for MA's role in fighting, I think the actual skill of fighting is the smallest part, personally. You learn, through martial arts, to focus, to concentrate, you learn your limits and, hopefully, you learn self control, enough so that when a situation presents itself to you, you can realize that you may not have to fight to get out of it.

Just my $0.02


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## Ninway J (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ThirdDegreeBurn _
> *As for the fight that I couldn't do that with, I started. I have no tolerance for guys who abuse their girlfriends or really, any girl for that matter. I see it, I snap. I'm not proud of it, but it's a part of who I am. *



Interesting TDB.  I've always thought about this subject.

This could be another topic for discussion or for another poll.  How many of us would get involved, and it wasn't our job (security officer, LEO, etc.), if we saw someone else we didn't know being taken-advantage of?

I remember when I was going to college, in the mid-90s, and a news story of a female student being raped was made public.  The story is that she was being raped, nearby the theater, by at least two men.  There were people passing by, and she called for help many times, but no one came to her rescue or even went for help.


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## pesilat (Feb 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ThirdDegreeBurn _
> *As for the fight that I couldn't do that with, I started. I have no tolerance for guys who abuse their girlfriends or really, any girl for that matter. I see it, I snap. I'm not proud of it, but it's a part of who I am.*



Huh. I'm wired that way, too - but a little broader, I can't stand abuse in general. Whether it's a man abusing a woman, an adult abusing a child, a person abusing an animal. I have to step up and do something - may or may not mean fighting depending on the situation.

Never crossed my mind to be proud or unproud of it, though. It's the way I was raised - there are some things a person can't abide and when those things come up there is no choice. Action must be taken. Pride doesn't enter into it.

Mike


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## Louxcypher (Feb 4, 2004)

I worked in nightclub/entertainment industry for years, so there was always a special sort of individual who always has too much to drink.  They are the worst kind to deal with. A few had to be shown respect and humility. And domestic arguements are the topper of all, they both go gonzo on you for reasons only a psychiatrist and the lithium/prozac fairy could explain. 
 I am 44 now and I have learned to stay away from all the streoid junkies, and adreneline freaks, which are prevalent in society today. Unless confronted with extreme measures, I bow out and leave. However, if confronted and no exit is available and there is life or death, then "I was in iminent danger, I was in fear for my life, (or familys life). Then I guess I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, if it has to come to that!


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2004)

Welcome Louxcypher,

I agree with the Adrenaline Freaks. This is something that not many people understand.
:asian:


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## Gary Crawford (Feb 5, 2004)

After the first time I stood up for myself the first time,I got stupid! I started standing up for other people who couldn't or wouldn't fight back.After doing that a couple times,the challenges came regularly,I walked away from most of them,but stupid crazyness took over if it was someone bigger than me,I couldn't resist.I did not always win,only about half the time. The last one was about fifteen years ago when a local drunk wanted me to get drunk with him when I wasn't in the mood.He was really big and not taking no for an answer.I figured he was about to hit me,so I exicuted a snap kick to the groin and missed!He took me to the ground with his hand on my throut( I thought he was going to kill me),I desperatly fought his chock hold until I got his pinckey finger dislocated.He came off me crying like a girl.I relocated his finger and sent him on his way,Man was that dumb!


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## Tony (Feb 6, 2004)

I haven't been in a fight since I was 17 and even that was self defence from this idiot who had be in a bear hug! Don't know if you can count the unofficial sparring contests I had with my friend after going to the gym and sparring in class!
I used to get into loads of fights at primary school and for some reason I stopped and became afraid of confrontation hence why I was an easy target for bullies at Secondary school!


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## Tony (Feb 11, 2004)

I remember my sister would get abusive with my mum and I was too afraid to stop her. And I do feel ashamed as I could have prevented all kicks and slaps my sister gave my mum. I also remember feeling ashamed when I lost my temper with my sister one time.
She had got mad with me because I was in the bathroom too long, because her friend wanted to use the toilet. I was having a bath and was rather put out by all of this! When I was in my room watching tv, she was shouting at me. I was trying to ignore her and this enraged her so much she started throwing objects at me! Now this was when I was about 21 I think at the time. Over the years I had grown taller than her and probably stronger but she was definately more aggressive than me! Well I lost my temper jumped accross the bed and slammed her against the wall. I think she might have hit her head on the wall. But she was calling me names afterwards. It was at that point I was feeling very ashamed at myself! I know a guy should never hit a woman but I was not in control of my temper and you could hardly call her a woman or even human, as she can be a real monster!
I would rather die than hurt a woman, potential girlfriend and I certainly would never hurt my mum as I love her!

Actually throughout my childhood my sister used to bully me alot and I was very scared of her! and even when I did fight back she made me feel it wasn't ok to fight back! So if I can't defend myself what chance do I have of protecting those I love all anyone else who desperately needs that help?
It doesn't matter that I've been doing Kung Fu now for 5 years and it doesn't matter if I get to Black Sash the sad truth is I think I will always feel like a coward and will never be able to defend myself if ever I'm confronted by an attacker!

I have to say though I have avoided a lot of situations that could have turned into fights but felt like a coward afterwards. I was in a club and I was standing not knowing I was blocking this guy's chair. Instead of him asking me politely if he could get to his chair he rudely gestured with his head for me to move! I guess he knew I would because he could tell from my nervous body language that would! And that makes me so mad because people take advantage of this and they can get aggressive with me and know 100% I will always back down!


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## 8253 (Feb 11, 2004)

I had been in more than my fair share of fights before i got into Martial Arts.  Most of them over stupidity, however i have since learned that 99% of physical fights are avoidable, even when defending another person who is unable for one reason or another to defend themselves.  It could be as simple as just telling them that there is nothing to prove, or just telling them to back up and think about what they are really doing because most reasonable people will stop to think about it and realize it is the wrong thing to do.  Then again sometimes people are not reasonable and it may come down to defending yourself or another.


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## MichiganTKD (Apr 24, 2004)

I have never been involved in a serious altercation since beginning Tae Kwon Do about 20 years ago, because I consiously avoid causing trouble as much as possible. 
I do remember coming home about 15 years ago with a friend of mine-home being my parents house at the time. I had been up all day, and justed to have a beer and relax. My brother decided to throw a party that night and invited about 30 of his closest friends (my parents were out of town). I was so PO'd about having to deal with so many rowdy youths that I walked into the living room, performed the mountain block from Kumgang form, and told everyone to leave. Didn't ask, told. My friend says they left within 30 seconds. He also tells me that my brother was crying to him to ask me not to hurt them.
I also work in a nursing home, and deal with many residents with Alzheimer's and dementia. While I have never and would never contact a resident, I have had to restrain some residents who have gotten physically combative. By that I mean they are actively trying knock your block off. I have had to use some aikido locks to keep from getting hit.


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## Laxe (Apr 25, 2004)

I've never been in a fight as well.  Being quite an aggressive person it got me in trouble when I was young until it was pointed out that such behavious was wrong - since then I've learned to use that aggression in a controlled manner through martial arts.  

While my count is currently zero, one of the main reasons why I took MA up was because I know that in all probability in this day and age I won't be able to avoid at least one serious fight.  Some people will simply not listen to reason as I have witnessed one to many times and I want to make sure that if and when I do have to fight for myself or for someone close to me, I wil bloody make sure I win.

It may sound absurd but that is one of the reasons why I learn martial arts.


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## Ninway J (Apr 25, 2004)

Laxe said:
			
		

> It may sound absurd but that is one of the reasons why I learn martial arts.



Doesn't sound absurd to me.  All it takes is one serious fight to put someone in a wheelchair for life...or six feet underground.  It's best to be prepared.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 25, 2004)

That makes a world of sence to me.
 With all that is going on in the world in general, and the ever present problem of being a random victum, it makes sence to study the ARTS for selfdefence and to prepare for the day , it might happen to you.


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## Tony (Apr 26, 2004)

I have never been in a fight well not since I was 17! Which I am very proud of and the last one was really self defence! but I have a 34 year old friend who has been studying Taekwondo for only a couple of years, but he has always been very highly strung and quick tempered. This Friday night he was nearly in an altercation just because some upper class looking guys were looking at him! He was getting very verbally abusive and was trying to me and my other friends involved when all of us were not interested in getting into a fight. After all this time he still has not learnt self control and his Taekwondo training hasn't helped calm his temper. I know from what he says he gets very aggressive when sparring and makes excessive contact when he is not supposed to and his instructor had to stop him and make him run through his patterns!
I regularly spar now and I merely use that as a way of desensitising myself to being hit for real. Its nice to spar with people who are really good and any novices. I can see what they're doing wrong and tell them. I also compliment people on their good techniques as do other people when I spar with them, so fortunately there is no animosity and we all respect each other, just how it should be!


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## Cruentus (Apr 26, 2004)

I have stayed away from this thread because I don't know what the definition of a "real fight" is. 

Is it every little violent encounter that one has come accross? If so, then between being bullied in school, at home, criminal friends growing up, hanging out at the wrong places, and security work, I guess one could say I've been in over a hundred "fights".

But, I don't feel comfortable saying that because I don't consider me throwing a guy out of an establishment a "fight" per say. For most of my violent or semi-violent encounters as an adult, I felt in control enough where I don't know if I would consider it a fight or not. I usually don't count ANY of my school "fights" because most of the time my life wasn't really in danger.

Out of all the crap I have been in (which is a lot by some standards, and not a lot by others) I can only recall 3 times where my life was in danger, and I didn't feel in control of the situation.

So I might be inclined to say anywhere from 3 to over 5 on the poll, depending on the standard. 

I think some thought should be put into what we would really consider a "fight." Just something to think about.

 :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 26, 2004)

I do not even consider "stupid youth" fights as fights.  I have said in seminars and such that I've been in more than 300+ "street" altercations.  People think that sounds like a tretch, till you consider some of the places I used to bounce at. While many of them were easy "drunk toss" sportive ejections from the establishment, many were not: friends tend to jump in with furniture when they see you throwing their buddy out in a naked choke; jumping in to break up a fight often turns both combatants on to you, etc.  Not to mention the several dozen times I've had pissed-off drunks come back for me with buddies after closing.

Here's some math: I would work the Tues-Thurs-Fri-Sat PM and Sunday Noon shifts in a place that averaged (due to overcrowding and an unusual amount of Snow for a So Cal beach community) 2-3 fights per night on weeknights and sunday afternoon, and 3-5 fights per night on Friday and Saturday night.  These fights DO NOT include simple ejections (restraining holds, chokes, arm bars, etc.), but rather fisticuffs, often with more than one person.  I worked in this place, and others like it, for the better part of a decade, cumulatively. In that time, I've been stabbed, cut, shot at (hit twice), whacked with chairs and bottles and plenty of purses, and so on.

Did the martial arts teach me not to fight?  No, but my background in psych allowed me to talk my way out of many more than I got in to. Working in thiese sorts of places, you learn that combat is never clean; it rarely ever goes by the book, or according to plan. Most of the sophisticated, really cool techniques you learn will never apply. The more basic, grab-and-beat stuff, on the other hand, saves your a%#. Judo, boxing, and BJJ turned out to consistently be my best friends in clubs, bars, and "gentlemans clubs". If it weren't for having studied martial arts well-enough to apply them, while viewing them with an attitude of irreverence while training so as to be able to think and operate outside the MA box, I would have been toast at a very young age.

Additional Note: Lots of MA guys came and went, taking work to make a dime around busy school schedules and test their nettle. Almost universally, the hardcore traditionalists did not fare well. Those with a little MA mixed in with a lot of tude and a willingness to scrap to make their point did rather well.  Did we lack MA philosophy? We didn't think so...it's what we spent all night talking about on the slow evenings.

Interestingly enough, it's as if the energy in those places needs a steam release valve. They either erupt in many smaller episodes, or in sparse raucous ones with a lot of malevolent energy behind them. Prefer to work in a pool bar with a handful of scuffs each night, then a higher-end club with only one good brawl a month.


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## Ceicei (Apr 26, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Additional Note: Lots of MA guys came and went, taking work to make a dime around busy school schedules and test their nettle. Almost universally, the hardcore traditionalists did not fare well. Those with a little MA mixed in with a lot of tude and a willingness to scrap to make their point did rather well. Did we lack MA philosophy? We didn't think so...it's what we spent all night talking about on the slow evenings.


This caught my attention.

Are you suggesting the traditionalists are "restricting" themselves unnecessarily with their defense or that they are not able to look broadly enough at how others attack?  I'm curious as to how you analyze (generally) the traditionalist view?

- Ceicei


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 27, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> This caught my attention.
> 
> Are you suggesting the traditionalists are "restricting" themselves unnecessarily with their defense or that they are not able to look broadly enough at how others attack? I'm curious as to how you analyze (generally) the traditionalist view?
> 
> - Ceicei


It seemed as if most TMA-ists had a strongly pre-concieved notion of what an attack *should* look like (i.e., step-through reverse punch, so they could initiate the first sequence from heian-shodan-type of thing). It seemed that the harder the style, the harder the time the individual had looking past their conditioning for independent/creative responses to novel situations...the more entrenched the response. The "exceptions" included TMA dudes with "hard-core" experience. I.E., we had a Polish guy who was Yodan in Kyokushinkai from east-bloc bare-knuckle background, and kickboxed semi-pro. Adapted well. Thai boxers, JKD and Urquido-kan guys generally adapted well. Even the guys from Norris' UFAF adapted well.  TKD, Shotokan, Goju, etc...harder time freeing up their response potential to deal with something new (i.e., flying beer bottle, Galliano bottle in full ball-bat swing, chairs, knife, etc.). The FMA guys typically did very well with wide ranges of attacks, esp. in the tight quarters of cramped bars & clubs (spent much time gleaning what I could in off hours notes-comparison/training sessions).

It wasn't universal, however. Know a JKD certified instructor and Shoot-fighter who is also phenom at BJJ and FMA (Inosanto lineage...IMHO, an ultimate combination for preparedness in real-life defense), teaching law enforcement, special ops, etc.  Got clocked in the head with a large beer stein and KO'd instantly (never even saw it coming)...was honestly one of the last people in the world I would have expected to fall to the attack; I respect the mans knowledge and skill immensely, still. I suppose even Achilles has a heel.

Regards,

Dave

PS -- My Grandpa used to say "It's not what a man *can* do in a fight by your side, but what he *will* do". Many a night under a dogpile, looking up at the NKOTB gawking at me while I'm getting thumped on; him being well-ranked, highly decorated, and paralyzed by either novelty or fear. Give me a willing bruiser with an ego problem and an ugly, busted up nose to work with, side-by-side, anyday.  These experiences are one of the reasons why I take the adamant stance that # of years experience and rank + competition record don't translate for squat when it comes to throwing down successfully.

D.


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## Bammx2 (May 24, 2004)

I have to agree with Dr.Dave on this one.........if I may call you that
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I started MA training at 6,got my 1st dan at 16 in Shotokan,(also a brown in judo) and my shotokan teacher was a tuff old bastard...we worked!
 I started my first bouncer job at 15,purely ego driven..back in the days when we wuz invincible
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...or so I thought.
Also...I did a lot of point competition back then.
I scored great in my first couple of bar fights!! and got knocked right out.
I worked the bar and night club industry for almost 20 yrs in a couple of different countries and got a great education in human nature.
I still swear to the traditional arts and still push for people to learn them,but I personally won'y rely on them anymore...cept for my training in kickboxing and grappeling arts.
 In my limited traditonal expierience, and I say that because I couldn't have possibley been exposed to nearly a quarter of them in my life time,I have found that most of them train one particular way and that sets into "muscle memory", not to mention most of them don't train to recieve punches and prepare for the "sucker" punch as well as multiple attackers.
 People need to understand that times change and so does the way people think.
 Martial arts was created to defeated invading murauders who had no training and to preserve life.
What we have now are people who train to beat martial artists AND invading murauders.
We have to adapt....they have.
And we have to show respect to those who came before us.
For what its worth.....
I had my last fight this past easter....goood shiner!
I was helping someone who was being jumped,
But I ended the fight with a good ole fashioned reverse punch to the body.....God I love that one
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Bammx2


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 24, 2004)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> ...I started MA training at 6,got my 1st dan at 16 in Shotokan,(also a brown in judo) and my shotokan teacher was a tuff old bastard...we worked!
> I started my first bouncer job at 15,purely ego driven..back in the days when we wuz invincible
> 
> 
> ...


Old grit with just a slightly sadistic leaning...Gotta LuvIt! (sure can't find much og it in the land of McDojo's).

Knew a cop named Ed Parker (no, not the Kenpo Ed Parker...Shotokan oldster).  Used to drop our neighborhood kenpo "tough guys" with his thunder-clap of a body punch.  Sent more than one home with busted fingers via punching the opened lead hand "en face".  Ahhh, the joy of gruff old hard-stylists.  WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!.

Dr. Dave (you can call me Dave  . If I hold out for the Dr. part, Robert will call me pompous :uhyeah.


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## Tony (May 25, 2004)

Well I haven't been in a fight since I was 17, (proud to say) as I try to avoid any risk of actually getting into any conflict. The last time I was involved in an altercation was when some guy had me in a rear bear hug so I head butted him and he let go. I just walked away because there was no way I was going to be drawn into some futile macho bs!
But I find my problem is that I am still a door mat evne though I have been practising Kung fu for 6 years now. Once when I was at a Nightclub I was standing by some chairs and this guy rudely gestured for me to move and rather then starting something I knew I couldn't finish I moved. But if it had been some one who was really big, 6'7 and build like a brick sh@t house then I don't think he would have thought twice about doing that. I'm only 5'7" so I guess I look pretty weedy and give out these subconscious signals that idiots like him can push me round and get away with it because they know I'm the kind of guy who won't fight back. It realy ticks me off but then again the alternative isn't much better, getting into a fight and not knowing how good my skills would be. Thinking back I wished I had stood my ground and  said to him that if he wanted me to move he would have to ask me!


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## 7starmantis (May 25, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> Well I haven't been in a fight since I was 17, (proud to say) as I try to avoid any risk of actually getting into any conflict. The last time I was involved in an altercation was when some guy had me in a rear bear hug so I head butted him and he let go. I just walked away because there was no way I was going to be drawn into some futile macho bs!
> But I find my problem is that I am still a door mat evne though I have been practising Kung fu for 6 years now. Once when I was at a Nightclub I was standing by some chairs and this guy rudely gestured for me to move and rather then starting something I knew I couldn't finish I moved. But if it had been some one who was really big, 6'7 and build like a brick sh@t house then I don't think he would have thought twice about doing that. I'm only 5'7" so I guess I look pretty weedy and give out these subconscious signals that idiots like him can push me round and get away with it because they know I'm the kind of guy who won't fight back. It realy ticks me off but then again the alternative isn't much better, getting into a fight and not knowing how good my skills would be. Thinking back I wished I had stood my ground and said to him that if he wanted me to move he would have to ask me!


I don't know Tony, I think maybe you showed true skill by moving and not letting yourself stay and posibly get into a fight. Regardless of skill level once a fight starts your chances of getting hurt skyrocket. Therefore, to stay out of a fight regardless of what it takes to do so will keep your chances of getting hurt pretty minimal. I think staying and telling him no would be against what your learning in martial arts and so I think you very much used your skill in that scenario.

7sm


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## Tony (May 25, 2004)

Hi 7*

Nice to hear from you again! thanks for what you just said! That makes me feel a lot better! I guess sometimes pride can come at such a high price. You hear of so many stories of people ending up in wheel chairs for life because of fights they have become involved in. I guess it could have turned out worst and I really don't need the added problems of Police and such. But at the same time that idiot should have been taught some manners.
I have never had to use what I have been taught but at the same time I have no idea if it would work in a real life encounter! I try to get as much sparring in class as I can but have no interest in winning medals. I have taken some good shots of other people but its only made me more determined not to let them get the better of me!
The thing is I have always been very passive, especially in school because I never fought back for fear of punishment from the teachers, silly considering I had every right to defend myself and to hell with the teachers.
I  have a friend, who I think I may have mentioned who is a bit of a hothead and has been in many fights and now that he trains in Taekwondo is a great concern because he seems to be very aggresive in his sparring, to the point his instructor has sometimes stopped him. I remember one time he wnated to spar with me when we at my friend's house but I refused, because to tell you the truth I was scared, because I don't know what he is capable of and how far he would have taken it.


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## MichiganTKD (May 25, 2004)

Tony,

I have a friend who is quite similar to the friend you mention. Not a hothead, but very arrogant and thinks Tae Kwon Do is for causing pain to people. Has alienated many people in his life because of his arrogance and attitude. Ironically, we trained together and hold the same rank. The similarities end there. Has gotten into several fights because he won't walk away and constantly feels the need to prove himself. He is currently in Korea right now teaching English where he can piss off the Koreans


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2004)

I have been involve in MA for over 40 yrs and only been in 3 actual fights, and that is because they would not let me walk away. MA is not meant for you to automaticly have a fight everytime someone's say's something to you!!! Some people feel that always have to prove there manhood or womanhood on a daily basis... God Bless America


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## Tony (May 26, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Tony,
> 
> I have a friend who is quite similar to the friend you mention. Not a hothead, but very arrogant and thinks Tae Kwon Do is for causing pain to people. Has alienated many people in his life because of his arrogance and attitude. Ironically, we trained together and hold the same rank. The similarities end there. Has gotten into several fights because he won't walk away and constantly feels the need to prove himself. He is currently in Korea right now teaching English where he can piss off the Koreans



Hi Michigan

Isn't it funny people like this are actually allowed to train in any Martial Art and they can get to the rank of black belt and still they have not changed. They still have not learnt any humility. I am lucky in that in my Kung Fu class people like this are soon weeded out because they will find the training difficult or because they are not interested in the ideology.


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## MichiganTKD (May 26, 2004)

You like to think that as they progress and go through the sweat, blood, pain, and frustration, they understand that fighting is not usually necessary. Unfortunately, my friend has issues that MA has been unable to help him with.  For one, his dad always made it clear he thought Tae Kwon Do was a waste of time. I think he has always felt this need to prove himself to his dad by showing that he can win fights. It never occured to him to say "You know, I don't care what my dad thinks."
 Also, he has a definite alcohol problem which has clouded his judgement over the years.
 I shouldn't pick on just him though. I've known many students and black belts over the years who were not exactly role models. I guess it's true: MA students come in all different flavors. Everyone has their own motivation for practicing. His happens to be causing pain.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 27, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> Well I haven't been in a fight since I was 17, (proud to say) as I try to avoid any risk of actually getting into any conflict. The last time I was involved in an altercation was when some guy had me in a rear bear hug so I head butted him and he let go. I just walked away because there was no way I was going to be drawn into some futile macho bs!
> But I find my problem is that I am still a door mat evne though I have been practising Kung fu for 6 years now. Once when I was at a Nightclub I was standing by some chairs and this guy rudely gestured for me to move and rather then starting something I knew I couldn't finish I moved. But if it had been some one who was really big, 6'7 and build like a brick sh@t house then I don't think he would have thought twice about doing that. I'm only 5'7" so I guess I look pretty weedy and give out these subconscious signals that idiots like him can push me round and get away with it because they know I'm the kind of guy who won't fight back. It realy ticks me off but then again the alternative isn't much better, getting into a fight and not knowing how good my skills would be. Thinking back I wished I had stood my ground and said to him that if he wanted me to move he would have to ask me!


You're healthy with all of your teeth in your mouth.  You won.


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## Tony (May 27, 2004)

Its quite amazing when I think of all the idiots I could have hurt badly but didn't because of this self control I had! I remember working somewhere where I happened to be sat next to this immature idiot. He was always talking behind people's backs but at the same time he was one of those people who liked to have fun while he worked. I remember while I was leaving the room to go to the toilet I caught what he said about me! I guess he thought he was safe enough and I wouldn't be able to hear him. I went to the toilet without stopping and I  was annoyed but whenI returned I just sat down and continued with my work! What I really wanted to do was bang his head against the wall until the wall was a nice shade of blood red. But I guess I'm not that kind of person and besides I needed the money. Anyone else with a quick temper that they could not control would have put him throught the wall!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 27, 2004)

Anger management training is an excellent investment in freedom, and keeping most of the money you make.  

D.


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## TigerWoman (May 27, 2004)

I've been in one - and not much of a "fight". I kicked a would be mugger/attacker in the groin. End of fight, I escaped. I should not have walked to a vacant parking lot in a city at night. Yeah, I'm a woman. But from looking at this thread, I have to wonder is the ability to get into fights something to be proud of?  I would think if you could AVOID the fight, you have superior mental capabilities not just a set of fists and feet.  Most traditional martial arts teach self control and anger-management.  I know our master/instructor has taken away black belts of those that have gotten into non-defensive fights. Most people with an attitude to just want to beat up people don't make it too far in our school. 

Somehow if you allow yourself to get in the position to have to fight, you've lost, if you can't walk away you've lost, if you have to pound the guy to get a point across, you've lost.  And in my opinion, even if you have to defend yourself to escape harm, you've lost because it didn't have to be that way.


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## 7starmantis (May 27, 2004)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Somehow if you allow yourself to get in the position to have to fight, you've lost, if you can't walk away you've lost, if you have to pound the guy to get a point across, you've lost. And in my opinion, even if you have to defend yourself to escape harm, you've lost because it didn't have to be that way.


I agree with you 100% except that there are most deffinatly situations where you are attacked that you had no control over. I've been in a couple in my life and I'm the first to walk away from a fight if possible. If you allow yourself to be caught in the pre-fight yes you have allready lost. So basically I agree, but just wanted to point out that there are those few situations that are beyond our control, and those are the ones for which I train.

7sm


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## MichiganTKD (May 27, 2004)

Exactly. One of the reasons why we train is to be able to defend ourselves in situations where we have exausted all other options and things happen beyond our control. For instance, walking in the dark is not recommended, but sometimes it cannot be helped. If someone is about to cause us or someone else harm and we cannot get away, we might have no choice. But to want to fight to teach someone a lesson or because your ego needs to be satisfied is plain wrong.


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## Jion (May 28, 2004)

I voted two... I lumped all of my schoolage fights in as one.

 My most recent encounter was stopping a shoplifter.  I was walking toward the entrance to the local Wal-Mart when I noticed one of the greeters attempting to stop a man who was leaving.  The man glanced at the greeter and began to walk faster.  I was maybe 10 feet from him, so I stepped forward in front of him.  He was holding what appeared to be a box wrapped in some kind of plastic packaging.  He assumed a defensive posture and sidestepped to the left.  I reached out with my left hand and grabbed his shirt, and he swung the package at my head, smacking me in the face.  My glasses went flying, and I can remember snapping my head back to look at him and throwing one punch to his face.  I then grabbed his other shoulder and threw him to the ground.  I made the mistake, from years of wrestling, to throw him face up, though, and he was still fighting back.  I lifted him up, threw one kneelift to his chest, and then put him face down and laid on top of him, waiting for security.  I was there maybe five seconds, looking around at the people staring when I heard the greeter, package in hand, tell me to let him go.  I was confused, of course, and hoping I hadn't just attacked an innocent guy, so I lifted him up by his now torn shirt - my left hand still had not let go of his shirt since I first grabbed him.  He just walked off across the parking lot.

 So, I washed off my scraped up elbow - asphalt hurts - and found out that yes, he was a shoplifter.  Of course, I was useless for shopping with the adrenaline my body had pumped out.


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## Jion (May 28, 2004)

Wow... wrote a lot there.  I do apologize... the fight was just very vivid to me.  Even now.


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## Tony (May 28, 2004)

Hi Jion

Welcome to the boards! That was a very brave thing you did stopping the shoplifter, but wasn't he arrested?  I hope I would be just as brave if a similar situation occurred! This does remind me of something similar that happened when I was on my way to my Kung Fu class. As its held in this big leisure centre theres all kinds of activities going on and I was walking through when I noticed a heated argument between a security guy and some local tough guy. I think what had happened was this person had attacked another member of staff and the security guy was trying to escort him off the premises. It was pretty intense but he managed to kick the guy out and I don't remember there be being any more trouble.
When I've been out in Oxford shopping I have noticed shoplifters being restrained my security personnel. It seems to happen a lot. They probably think they can try their luck but they're wrong, however I wouldn't consider a job in security, such a high risk of  violence!


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## MichiganTKD (May 28, 2004)

That's right. Why risk life, limb, and safety for a job that pays $7.50/hour? I really think some people go into security or bouncing because they want to crack heads if given a chance.


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## Cruentus (May 28, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> That's right. Why risk life, limb, and safety for a job that pays $7.50/hour? I really think some people go into security or bouncing because they want to crack heads if given a chance.



I only did private security jobs that either paid pretty well (by college kid standards) or because I knew the person holding the venue. In the 80's in some areas bouncing paid better then most non-college-educated jobs out there. By the time I was of age to bounce, cooking and construction paid better, so I did a hell of a lot more cooking and construction then bouncing, for that reason.

I agree, though, that many bouncers are just looking for the ego trip.

 :ultracool


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 28, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I only did private security jobs that either paid pretty well (by college kid standards) or because I knew the person holding the venue. In the 80's in some areas bouncing paid better then most non-college-educated jobs out there. By the time I was of age to bounce, cooking and construction paid better, so I did a hell of a lot more cooking and construction then bouncing, for that reason.
> 
> I agree, though, that many bouncers are just looking for the ego trip.
> 
> :ultracool


I guesss it depends on where you bounce. In the eighties, where I started, I was paid (including being tipped out by bar and witresses) 25.00/hr. Later transferred to "Genterlemans Clubs", where I could make as much as $350.00/night.


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## Rich Parsons (May 28, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I guesss it depends on where you bounce. In the eighties, where I started, I was paid (including being tipped out by bar and witresses) 25.00/hr. Later transferred to "Genterlemans Clubs", where I could make as much as $350.00/night.



Where I worked in teh Mid to LAte 80's I was lucky to get $6.50 an hour under the table. Some gigs got you $10.00 an hour yet they were not regular paying.

You could make more as a short order cook, if you could find the work. Lots of people looking.

BTW: Programming in the local area only paid $4.25 an hour. 

I worked both security and bouncing and catering and news paper delivery and ..., to pay the bills and have food to eat. One of my favorite past times .

I agree it depends upon where and when, for what was a going and good rates


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## Zoran (May 29, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I guesss it depends on where you bounce. In the eighties, where I started, I was paid (including being tipped out by bar and witresses) 25.00/hr. Later transferred to "Genterlemans Clubs", where I could make as much as $350.00/night.



That's interesting, it was about the same for me too (I miss that money sometimes).  It was a whole different world going from a local bar to a gentlemens club. At the bar, I spent most of my time trying to keep the patrons from killing each other. While at the other, the patrons where usually very angry at the bouncers and wanted to fight us. Plus add to the fact you have to deal with all those "big money people". This included business men, politicians, celebrities, and your garden variety shady character with a lot of cash with no visible means of income. Made for an interest life experience.


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## Dronak (Jun 9, 2004)

Wow.  That's an interesting split on the votes.  At the moment, over half the votes (~54%) are for 5+, then about 19% for 0, with 1-4 picking up the remaining ~30%.  That means a large majority of people here (~80%) have been in at least 1 potentially serious fight.  I'm one of the zeroes though and hope to keep it that way.  I can't really remember getting into any fights at all.  If anything, it would have been the kids on the playground sort of thing or with siblings which was never anything really serious.  And I can only recall one threat of a fight which ended up being talked out.  As for my age, I'm finishing up a PhD in graduate school so that should give you a good general idea of how old I am.


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## Flatlander (Jun 9, 2004)

Dronak said:
			
		

> Wow. That's an interesting split on the votes. At the moment, over half the votes (~54%) are for 5+, then about 19% for 0, with 1-4 picking up the remaining ~30%. That means a large majority of people here (~80%) have been in at least 1 potentially serious fight. I'm one of the zeroes though and hope to keep it that way. I can't really remember getting into any fights at all. If anything, it would have been the kids on the playground sort of thing or with siblings which was never anything really serious. And I can only recall one threat of a fight which ended up being talked out. As for my age, I'm finishing up a PhD in graduate school so that should give you a good general idea of how old I am.


I was in the 1-4 range...I can only hope that from this point on, those stats won't change for me.  I'm really too old for that garbage.


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## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT (Jul 16, 2004)

since i have begin studying i have not been in any fights. before on the other hand in my lifetime only 2 and that was when in was in grade school.


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 17, 2004)

I only voted for one and then was when I was assualted.  However I had a minor fight at a job sight between a co-worker and I in 81/82 when I was an orange belt in TKD.  I hit hit him once and got him in a sort of head lock in the back of a pick up truck bed.

But I had a very near fight that could have been extremly serious about the same time.  On a double date driving along Northwest HWY in Dallas on a Friday/Saturday night going to see ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW a Smokey and the Bandit Trans Am (77/78 module) drives up along side of me with a car load of college guys (big as well).  Well the dude swerves in towards my beat up 72 Ford Countrysquire Stationwagon and they are yelling they are going to kick my (our) a$$.  I asked the other guy in the backseat if he knew these guys and being just released from the Marine Corps, promptly rolls down his window ask "what's your problem?" and proceeds to start making funny faces at the guys.  But we get stopped at a traffic light, so out they come and the driver walks in front of my car as he is coming around to my side when the light turned green and I hit the gas.  Clipping the driver's leg, but getting a lead on them in the process.

They catch up to us a couple of lights away, when I decide we'll make it to the movie house and there would be police there and maybe we won't have to fight.  So when they get abreast with me I turn across incoming traffic about killing everyone in the car in the process and turn down the street for the movie.  So we escaped that one.

But on the same night now driving home in Plano TX, 25 miles away taking the other couple home a Duster pulls up and this guys starts yelling that he is going to kick our a$$e$ (I must have had a kick me sign on the car or something   ).  So the marine has had enough he wants blood.  So we pull up to the apparment parking lot he jumps out with a piece of electrical cable that I had as a weapon (I was an electrican at the time) and runs out in the road to meet the guys (2 of them) in the Duster.  I (being the gentleman that I am  ) walked around to the ladies doors and opened their doors for them, and told them to go to thier room and that the marine and I would finish this.

Anyway as I go to find the marine, I'm hearing this Duster coming roaring down the street with this nut yelling and everything and I think.  Here's the marine with the only weapon, the guys who's trained to kill, (you know like in Alice's Resturant), been trained to fight in battle and all, and I'm an orange belt (yeah I had a clue about fighting).  Anyway the marine scared the crap out of the driver cause this guy saw him standing in the middle of the road ready to take them on and he makes a U turn and speeds off a again about killing his vocal partner in the process since he tried to get out before the car stopped.  The guy drove up twice the first time the driver chickened out before he got to the parking lot, the second time the passenger who was the one yelling must have talked him into it again because there were coming back when I saw the marine standing in the middle of the street waiting for them.  (He looked like a minature HULK only not green  GRRRRRRRRRRH)

It was these two incidents in the same night that convinced me I needed to learn how to fight and learn some real self defense.  That was 22 years ago and I haven't been in anything since (except being assualted once, but I covered that on another thread).

Time for bed

Mark


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## OC Kid (Jul 17, 2004)

I fought a lot all through school starting about 3rd grade. I even got kicked out of HS for punching a principal. The army well I puched a aj sargent and so on. Since Ive been in the MA not to many mostly ones I couldnt aviod. Now Im a older person and with todays technology I just fial 911 on my cell and  let the police deal with the idiots. Actually I think having a family helpped settle me down.


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## Shogun (Nov 1, 2004)

Most of the times when I have been in fights have been when I was younger. My first "real" fight, I was in 3rd grade. It was real because thats the first time ive bled from someone's fist. I got into many many fights in school, but most of them couldnt be considered real fights. I got into a very violent fight in 10th grade that involved machetes. I was in a forestry class, and someone in my group was stoned and not working. it was my job to motivate them to work so I yelled at him. He threw a stick at me and started swinging his machete at me, so I defended my self with mine. blood was drawn but nobody was seriously hurt.


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## jaymo (Nov 2, 2004)

i've only been in one and it was quite traumatic. it was when i was 12. i was a fat kid that got picked on quite a bit. the class bully with two first names kept throwing spit wads in my hair on the bus and calling and endless potpourri of obscenities.  since this was a daily ritual for her, i got fed up with it and said, "okay i'll fight you!" because i was sick of her picking on me. 


well....she beat my a$$. big time. broke my nose, left me with a couple of black eyes and a chipped tooth. i don't think i even got a punch in. the first hit, i felt the blood run down my face and froze. i stood there like a deer in the headlights. the girl never got into any real trouble, my parents weren't comforting or consoling at all-(they're fairly abusive themselves which could start a whole new thread!), and because i didn't do anything, i was an even bigger joke.  no one ever taught me how to fight or defend myself...i just knew i was sick of being picked on. to this day it really messes me up when someone hits me in the head during sparring. i don't know why, but i freeze up and go back to that freaky little place in time when i was 12. 

the second fight i was in, (i didn't count on the poll) because i was attacked by a disabled student of mine, and i figured that didn't count because i didn't strike him. i had a couple of years of MA under me at the time and it paid off. he didn't get at my glasses and didn't hurt my face or my vital organs. i was able to keep the other students from getting hurt and remained calm and protected. he did get me in a weird position for a moment and bit my leg, but i applied a non-harming  DMH approved move and he let go.


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## kanjc (Nov 2, 2004)

According to my school record ( 7th - 12th grade) 187 fights. I lost 60 +/- of those, I used to have a mouth and a temper which were a bad combo. Since then (16 years ago now) I have been in only 2 fights , I have since learned to keep my temper and my mouth shut. I just turned 33 and started MA in August.


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## PeachMonkey (Nov 2, 2004)

Just out of curiosity, how did you stay out of juvie with that many fights in school?


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## kanjc (Nov 8, 2004)

It was a different time back then, fights were, sad to say, consider normal and rather common. The area I grew up in was rather rural therefore the school had the  nick name "Cow pie High". Things have changed alot though around here, now days if a kid mentions that he is going to beat somebody up he is immediately suspended from school for intent....


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 16, 2004)

Ninway J said:
			
		

> I'm interested to find out, from the Martial Talk community, how many fights each member has been in his/her life.
> 
> Any fight, meaning serious situations where you had to physically defend yourself from a person or persons because a)you thought there was a chance a person might seriously hurt you physically, or b) you thought there was a chance a person might end your life at that moment.
> 
> If you want, please tell us your story and your age now(approximate if you want).


You need more definition in the question.

I define a fight as unplanned and unasked for true physical combat (This mean intent and means to kill or disable)
Since I developed this definition and a awareness of how to avoid or win such situations 
3-7 depending on definition
Still here.
40's now was in teens when I figured out what was (and was not) a fight.
That said and after viewing poll results gonna go back and choose Zero or 1.
Because I'm still here and the other guys can't vote.


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## Sin (Nov 16, 2004)

When I opened up this thread I thought that most people would be in the highest number of fights, cause I am in there as well.

There are 2 kinds of people that get into fights.

the Bully- The person looking for any little thing to blow there top about

the Bullied- Guy whos the bully's target

The target either fights back and totally beats the daylights out of the bully, or gets beat up,  These are the targets reasons for getting into MA.

The Bully on the other hand gets into MA to either cause more damage or to control him/herself.  More times that it should they get into it to cause moe damage, hopfully the bully learns through the classes that what he/she is doing is wrong and quits bullying people around.  But other times with a bad teachers the bullys get worse.

fights start with an emotion, and if you can get those emotions under control that makes you a true MAist


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## Erik (Nov 17, 2004)

Does taking down and/or choking out a drunk count as a fight (I was the bouncer)?


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## *sic (Nov 18, 2004)

Erik said:
			
		

> Does taking down and/or choking out a drunk count as a fight (I was the bouncer)?


not likely, as he was probably not much of a challenge in an altered drunken state.

hmm fights yes there have been a few scuffles, but none where i have feared for my life, so i would then have to say none in that respect.


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## Raewyn (Nov 19, 2004)

Im am sure if they had been good ones, they wouldnt have stood a chance against you!!!!!!!


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## Paul Genge (Nov 20, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> When I opened up this thread I thought that most people would be in the highest number of fights, cause I am in there as well.
> 
> There are 2 kinds of people that get into fights.
> 
> ...


There is a third catogory.

3/  The proffessional.


Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 20, 2004)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> There is a third catogory.
> 
> 3/ The proffessional.
> 
> ...


When was the last time a Professional (assume you are talking so called modern professional fighting) fought in a Death or Permanent Disable type fight for pay.

sorry I don't think so.


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## Paul Genge (Nov 20, 2004)

Soldiers, LEO's ect.....

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 20, 2004)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> Soldiers, LEO's ect.....
> 
> Paul Genge
> http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


Ok My Bad ). (look what happens when you assume)
I don't think of most of those people as in it for the pay, but ok that is a pro if he gets in the fight in the Line of duty. (on the job so to speak)
Thats really where most of M.A. came from as bullys and bullied in the single person sense don't have the organization and managment training needs to develop complete MA systems. Pro's did it a long time ago.
Like I said before "the question needs definition" but the Dialog is providing it. 
Good simple Question and a nice Thread.


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## MichiganTKD (Nov 20, 2004)

I would tend to agree. I don't count soldiers or cops in this category, because the reality of combat is part of their occupation. Gonna happen sooner or later. I also don't count jobs like bouncer or bartender or any profession where the threat of violence is there, even if not an assumed part of the job.
To me, a fight is an altercation between one person who starts it, and the other who receives it. Doesn't matter if death is the planned result. One person only has to want to hurt the other.
Obviously professional fighters don't count. Now, if someone attacked them on the street that would be different. That's not scripted.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 20, 2004)

Sin said:
			
		

> When I opened up this thread I thought that most people would be in the highest number of fights, cause I am in there as well.
> 
> There are 2 kinds of people that get into fights.
> 
> ...





> 3) Professional



Well, I see that people think that police and bouncers and soldiers are professional  fighters, since they obtain some form of payment. And as such this should not count.

Well the next time a bouncer stops a bully from hitting your daughter or wife or girlfriend, tell him the fight does not count. Tell the police officer that shows up and gets shot at or has to tackle in the line of duty people, and tell him that each case does not count, for they face, being hurt, and being maimed, and being killed, trying to help someone. 

Now if you are talking about Professional in the case of Professional Boxers and such with designated rules, then I agree this is a case to keep a separate catagory, of Amature and Professional fights.

 :asian:


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## OC Kid (Nov 20, 2004)

Well  my 10 y.o. boy just dropped some kid that out weighed him by 10-15lbs the other night. At soccer practice this kids older brother started messing with johnny and then about the end of practice he called his brother ,my boys age over  and said something to him , the kid charged Johnnny and johnny took off running toward the coach but the kid caught him from behind.
johnnny planted his lead leg and threw a defensive rear kick and dropped the kid. Then kicked tghe kid once in the ribs to keep him down
Then the kid got up took about 3 steps toward johnn and fell.

kids older brother about 14-15 grabbed Johnny from behind and Johnnny put up one heck of a fight elbows spinning backfist....while he was yelling take your hands off me... well my wife got there and got the big kid off....

Coach got involved talked to the kids and worked everything out. Nothing beats a good defensive rear kick.
hes getting better the last bully it took 2 defensive rear kicks and 4 punches. So he must be improving his power...


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 22, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Well, I see that people think that police and bouncers and soldiers are professional fighters, since they obtain some form of payment. And as such this should not count.
> 
> Well the next time a bouncer stops a bully from hitting your daughter or wife or girlfriend, tell him the fight does not count. Tell the police officer that shows up and gets shot at or has to tackle in the line of duty people, and tell him that each case does not count, for they face, being hurt, and being maimed, and being killed, trying to help someone.
> 
> ...


I just want to point out I said my bad and I did not get what he meant in original post OK?
The guy after me went into it not counting, not me.
REALITY COUNTS
All the time and no excuses


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## 5 hand swords (Nov 22, 2004)

REALITY COUNTS
All the time and no excuses
P.S. A-(2 times one half) He is Your President Again!
We have a system of checks and balances use them if you don't like it.
If he is a bad as you say 2 years at most before impeach - hope for the best and quit bitching
IMHO - but you have freedom of speech and your vote here thanks to the blood of VET's.


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## psi_radar (Apr 13, 2005)

Sin said:
			
		

> When I opened up this thread I thought that most people would be in the highest number of fights, cause I am in there as well.
> 
> There are 2 kinds of people that get into fights.
> 
> ...



Got a good point there..I was the bullied for a while, then got tough as a necessity. Then transformed into the guy everone had to fight to prove their worth when they transferred into my ELEMENTARY school. I hated rural life. When my parents moved to the burbs and someone two years older came at me on the bus, I popped him in the nose to settle him down. Turns out I broke it (the nose) and the much more pacifistic administration put me on double-secret probation pretty much until I graduated high school. I couldn't believe the guy went and told on me, at the time--he had attacked me. That violated all the rules that I had learned to that point.

I wrestled in high school and didn't take martial arts formally until I was near thirty. One thing I found interesting: My natural fighting abilities seemed to decline as I adopted a new system of fighting. Everything was instinctual before, and what I lacked in technique I made up for in power and heart. I'd say it took about two years for my new skills to match up with the old ones.


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## dubljay (Apr 13, 2005)

Sin said:
			
		

> When I opened up this thread I thought that most people would be in the highest number of fights, cause I am in there as well.
> 
> There are 2 kinds of people that get into fights.
> 
> ...


 I was the 3rd kind.  I never really got picked on, nor did I bully people.  But if I saw a situation where some one wouldn't stand up for themselves I would stand up for them.  I learned that standing up for some one would often show that person their bully wasnt all that they appeared to be and encouraged them to stand up for themselves, and that usually made sure they were left alone.


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## psi_radar (Apr 13, 2005)

dubljay said:
			
		

> I was the 3rd kind.  I never really got picked on, nor did I bully people.  But if I saw a situation where some one wouldn't stand up for themselves I would stand up for them.  I learned that standing up for some one would often show that person their bully wasnt all that they appeared to be and encouraged them to stand up for themselves, and that usually made sure they were left alone.



Would've like to metcha!


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## dubljay (Apr 13, 2005)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> Would've like to metcha!


 I guess its an inheareted trait from my father.... I never liked to see people get picked on, and neither did he.


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## swiftpete (Apr 13, 2005)

pesilat said:
			
		

> If you attack again, you'll go to the hospital." He swung again. I caught and broke his arm (might have just dislocated his elbow - didn't pay too much attention - but there was a nice loud crack) kicked him in the chest to get him away from me, then I got in the car and drove home.
> 
> 
> Mike


I love that story! you warned him and he chose to start more trouble anyway. Well you had told him what would happen so i think it's good that you were so casual and just got the job done. I wonder if he thought about his actions on the way to the hospital to get his arm fixed up?


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## Sam (Apr 13, 2005)

I've lost count. They've all been against my father. After the last time, when he got me in a front choke........

well, its why I take kenpo now anyway.


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## Tgace (Apr 14, 2005)

I broke a kids wrist in 6th grade when he attempted to punch me in the stomach a second time...after that there were no significant school fights to mention.


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## searcher (Apr 14, 2005)

I have been in a some fights.  Iwas the bullied coming out of junior high and it continued a couple of years into high school.   Then in college it was similar, but with higher stakes.   This started in j.h. because I was a runt, then I hit a growth spurt and it ended the size problem.   Now that I was their size they had to use high number, minimum of 3.   Once I started training I still had that sheep mentality, but it changed once I got to college.   I used to think I wanted to get the bullies back, but have since changed my mind.   I see them on the street and I can't help but feel bad for them.   They are either fat, wasting away on drugs, or just weaker than I remember.    Now I feel that with my years of training I would have an unfair advantage.    I now help kids who are going through the getting bullied stages, I think this has helped more than anything.   

Samantha, I know what you are going through.  My pops used to kick the crap out of me at every corner.    At my Sho-dan test I broke his cheek bones.   All I can say is that what go around comes around.


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