# Naihanchi Hyung/Kata Origins?



## Makalakumu (Feb 6, 2005)

Where do these forms originate?  Who created them?  Why are there three?

These forms cross arts and that tells me that they are profound.  Kwan Jang Hwan Kee's book is vague on the above questions.  I learned a lot about them in my training, but I am seeking other points of view...

upnorthkyosa


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## The Kai (Feb 7, 2005)

Haihanchi I've always heard was a old okinawan Kata.  Why dos it move in a straight line?  I've heard 3 different theories.

1.) Took place with back to wall
2.) Took place on a bridge
3.)  Was practiced on the back of a boat
4.) Nobody knows for sure

Why is there 3 of them?  I heard there was originaaly 1 long kata, and it was broken up to make it easier top learn
Todd


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## rmclain (Feb 7, 2005)

The Naihanchi form were taught as the basic forms from Shuri-te in the past.  Naihanchi I & II can be traced to Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura, who lived 1797-1889.  But, I don't know if he created these forms or they came from someone else.

His student, Yasutsune Anko Itosu (1830-1915) is credited with creating Naihanchi #3.  

These forms were taught in most Korean martial art schools following WWII. 


R. McLain


Source:
Alexander, George W.  Okinawa: Island of Karate. Lake Worth: Yamazato, 1991.


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## ppko (Feb 7, 2005)

Naihanchi katas

originally they were all one kata
Naihanchi translates to points (Pressure Points) of Han Chi
It moves sideways to show how you go on your opponent, in other words you are not fighting sideways but rather showing how you opponent may turn or where you would go on your opponent to make these techniques work.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 7, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> Naihanchi translates to points (Pressure Points) of Han Chi.



Who was Han Chi?  When did he live?  Where?  

Thanks for you answers...

upnorthkyosa


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## ppko (Feb 7, 2005)

I am not sure who Han Chi was other than I believe he was Chinese this is probably the closest that you will find to the true history of Naihanchi

http://www.ryukyukempo.com/lineage.html


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## Andrew Green (Feb 7, 2005)

The thing about origins of classical kata is that there is so many myths to choose from, chances are none are really "accurate"

 Where it originally came from is unknown, what it means is unknown.

 Anko Ituso added the second two, but the first ones origin is a bit of a mystery.  There are of course many theories/stories, maybe one of them is right, but then again maybe not.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 8, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> The thing about origins of classical kata is that there is so many myths to choose from, chances are none are really "accurate"
> 
> Where it originally came from is unknown, what it means is unknown.
> 
> Anko Ituso added the second two, but the first ones origin is a bit of a mystery.  There are of course many theories/stories, maybe one of them is right, but then again maybe not.



Sorting through the myth and the fact has become important to me as I progress to the higher ranks in my art.  The Okinawan kata are particularly interesting because they are so widespread through so many arts.  Also, the amount of controversy surrounding them, given the politics of the different arts, happens to be great.

All right, here is another couple of questions...

1.  Is Anko Itosu the same Itosu that added kata to the pyung ahn/pinan/heien (all these are basically the same) set?

2.  Who did Mr. Itosu train with?

3.  Do the second and third naihanchi kata have the same depth of pressure point knowledge in them as the first?

4.  Do the pyung ahn/pinan/heien kata contain pressure point knowledge?

upnorthkyosa


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## rmclain (Feb 8, 2005)

Yes, Anko Itosu created the Pinan/Heian/Pyung Ahn forms around the year 1900 as beginner-intermediate forms.

Itosu's teacher was Sokon Matsumura and Kosaku Matsumura (Tomari-te).  Both were students of Tode Sakugawa.


"3. Do the second and third naihanchi kata have the same depth of pressure point knowledge in them as the first?"

I believe that any of this "pressure point knowledge" and any form technique interpretation depends on the teacher and how the knowledge is preserved.  Same for the pyung ahn/heian/pinan forms.

All of the sources I've ever learned from or read, cite Naihanchi as translating to "Fighting holding your ground."  I've never heard of the other interpretation of this name.

R. McLain


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## ppko (Feb 8, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> 3. Do the second and third naihanchi kata have the same depth of pressure point knowledge in them as the first?
> 
> 4. Do the pyung ahn/pinan/heien kata contain pressure point knowledge?
> 
> upnorthkyosa


3. Yes you just have to search
4. Yes all katas do


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## Yossarian75 (Feb 9, 2005)

The two most common explanations of the origins of these hyung that ive come accross are, they were one big form split up(by Itosu?) or Itosu created the second and third. 

I agree with PPKO on a couple of points here, I believe the sideways movement represents the angle of attack, ie you are sideways to your opponent. Saying that I have seen applications where you are facing your opponent but move to the side. 

The majority of applications I have seen for any Hyung include pressure point strikes. Since Hyung applications tend to attack the bodies vulnerable/weak points you will always be able to find PP strikes. Ive seen applications that dont mention PP's but are clearly striking them, ie hit here it gives them a dead arm or hit this spot it makes them dizzy/unconcious.

IMO Naihanchi(cho dan) is a very important Hyung, maybe because its the one ive studied the most. The applications are great, very nasty fight stopping moves. I can see why Funakoshi spent ten years studying this, it truly is a fighting system in its own right.


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## RRouuselot (Feb 9, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> Naihanchi katas
> 
> originally they were all one kata
> 1) Naihanchi translates to points (Pressure Points) of Han Chi
> It moves sideways to show how you go on your opponent, in other words you are not fighting sideways but rather showing how you opponent may turn or where you would go on your opponent to make these techniques work.


  1) Absolutely positively WRONG! It does not translate as pressure points of Han Chi. [font=&quot]&#12288;[/font]You need to do better research and have a better grasp of the language you feign knowledge of before you try and answer such questions. Does everything have to be a pressure point with you? Sometimes I think if I showed you a donut you would claim the sprinkles on top were kyusho points. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			









			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Who was Han Chi? When did he live? Where?
> 
> Thanks for you answers...
> 
> upnorthkyosa


 
    Han Chi is not a persons name. The kanji for han = half and the kanji for Chi = ground. 







			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> Haihanchi I've always heard was a old okinawan Kata. Why dos it move in a straight line? I've heard 3 different theories.
> 
> 1.) Took place with back to wall
> 2.) Took place on a bridge
> ...


 
    1,2,3 are incorrect. 





*Written by Joe Swift, Tokyo Japan*



*Naihanchi no Kata*
 Naihanchi (a.k.a. Naifuanchi) is typical of in-fighting techniques, including grappling. There are three kata in modern (i.e. post 1900) karate, with the second and third being thought to have been created by Itosu Anko (Iwai, 1992; Kinjo, 1991a; Murakami, 1991). Another popular theory is that originally the three were one kata, but were broken up into three separate parts by Itosu (Aragaki, 2000; Iwai, 1992).

  This kata was *not* originally developed to be used when fighting against a wall, but this does not preclude such interpretations. While the kata itself goes side to side, the applications are more often than not against an attacker who is in front of you, or grabbing at you from the sides or behind. Some say that the side-to-side movement is to build up the necessary balance and physique for quick footwork and body-shifting (Kinjo, 1991b).

 Interestingly, most versions of Naihanchi start to the right side, including Itosu, Matsumura and Kyan's versions. Isshinryu's Naihanchi starts to the left. There are others that start to the left as well, including that of Kishimoto Soko lineage schools like Genseiryu and Bugeikan (Shukumine, 1966), the Tomari version of Matsumora Kosaku lineage schools like Gohakukai (Okinawa Board of Education, 1995), and Motobu Choki's version (Motobu, 1997). This last may account for Shimabuku Tatsuo beginning his Naihanchi to the left.

 Isshinryu Naihanchi is basically a re-working of the classical Naihanchi Shodan, in order to keep it in line with the principles around which Shimabuku built his style. The main reason Shimabuku did not retain Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan is probably because his primary teacher Kyan did not teach them (Okinawa Prefectural Board of Education, 1995).


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## The Kai (Feb 9, 2005)

```
1,2,3 are incorrect.
```
I did say they were theories, you expalnation adds much


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## Makalakumu (Feb 9, 2005)

Thank you for your reply Mr. Rousselot.   :asian: 

Your citation was very useful.

A couple of more questions...

1.  Nai = ?  If Han = Half and Chi = Ground, what is the kanji for the first part?
2.  Which of the three is your favorite?  Why?  (this question is for everyone)


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## glad2bhere (Feb 9, 2005)

I had heard at least once that a form tradition in Taiwan uses biomechanics very very close to the Naifanchi model. I think I got that from material Found in the old DRAGON TIMES.  Has anyone else heard this? 

Also I had heard that the original Naifanchi had been split in two to form the first two, and then, based on the material of those two forms the last one was constructed. 

As far as all this talk of PP work, all I can say is that the BUBISHI never suggested such complexity and that I think we are corrupting or embellishing older material with the better understanding of Oriental medicine that we have today. Given the prevalence of copied and recopied manuals such as are found yet to exist, I think the nature of the arts was much more primitive than we like to think. Nothing wrong with working to grow the art by adding these things now, if thats what folks want to do. I think it is historically inaccurate to believe that such material was an organized albeit clandestine approach in the Okinawan arts.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## RRouuselot (Feb 9, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Thank you for your reply Mr. Rousselot.   :asian:
> 
> Your citation was very useful.
> 
> ...


   1) I have seen Naihanchi written 2 ways. 

   One way has the kanji Nai= inner/inside, Han = half, and Chi = ground

   The second has the first and last kanji as the same and a different middle kanji. I am looking for the book I saw it in but seem to have misplaced it. 

   Most of the time it is written in katakana which is used for non-Japanese words. 

  2) I don't have a favorite kata....I like them all.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 9, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) I have seen Naihanchi written 2 ways.
> 
> One way has the kanji Nai= inner/inside, Han = half, and Chi = ground
> 
> ...



Thank you again.

Also, Mr. Simms, I like your point about translations.  That really provides insight into the variation in explanations we are seeing.


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## shesulsa (Feb 9, 2005)

*Mod. Note. 
  Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

  -shesulsa
  -MT Moderator-*


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## The Kai (Feb 9, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I had heard at least once that a form tradition in Taiwan uses biomechanics very very close to the Naifanchi model. I think I got that from material Found in the old DRAGON TIMES. Has anyone else heard this?
> 
> Also I had heard that the original Naifanchi had been split in two to form the first two, and then, based on the material of those two forms the last one was constructed.
> 
> ...


I think that would probably be the case


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 9, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) I have seen Naihanchi written 2 ways.
> 
> One way has the kanji Nai= inner/inside, Han = half, and Chi = ground
> 
> ...


i think the second kanji in other ways of writing it translates to the word claw. so it's indicative of the kamae used in the kata. it would be like holding your knees in (a la sanchin) while gripping the ground with your toes. i could be way off.........what do you think robert?
as far as all the pressure point hooey......i guess people can dream up all kinds of stuff.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 9, 2005)

I don't know if this will help but that last comment sent me running for a copy of OKINAWAN KEMPO by Choki Motobu. Originally published in May of 1926 the copy I have is copyrighted by Seiyu Oyata in 1977. 

In this particular book Motobu states that "There have been numerous styles in Karate..... among those styles (kata) which have been used in Ryukyu from ancient days are {goes on to list names of 12 kata}....... especially the three styles of Naihanchi, Passai (great and small) and KuShanKu are very widely know to islanders........however the Nai-hanchi, Passai, Chinto and Rohai are not left in China today, and remain only in Okinawa as martial arts." 

Now the reason I took the time to type this in is because later Motobu comments that "as to Pinan (5 katas) the modern time warrior Mr. Itosu originated this style to use as teaching material for his students." 

My sense is that if the Nai-hanchi had been originated in Okinawa by Itosu either in part or in whole, or by Matsumura for that matter, Motobu would have commented something to this effect like he did about the Pinan. As I said before there is still a form supposedly practiced in Taiwan that looks like Naihanchi so I suggest that maybe we are looking at something of an artifact left over from an early time in China and now only remaining in Okinawan practice. For what its worth....

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## RRouuselot (Feb 9, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think the second kanji in other ways of writing it translates to the word claw. so it's indicative of the kamae used in the kata. it would be like holding your knees in (a la sanchin) while gripping the ground with your toes. i could be way off.........what do you think robert?
> as far as all the pressure point hooey......i guess people can dream up all kinds of stuff.


 
 Oh ya...I forgot aobut that one....... make that 3 variations.


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## RRouuselot (Feb 9, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I don't know if this will help but that last comment sent me running for a copy of OKINAWAN KEMPO by Choki Motobu. Originally published in May of 1926 the copy I have is copyrighted by Seiyu Oyata in 1977.
> 
> In this particular book Motobu states that "There have been numerous styles in Karate..... among those styles (kata) which have been used in Ryukyu from ancient days are {goes on to list names of 12 kata}....... especially the three styles of Naihanchi, Passai (great and small) and KuShanKu are very widely know to islanders........however the Nai-hanchi, Passai, Chinto and Rohai are not left in China today, and remain only in Okinawa as martial arts."
> 
> ...


 I lived and trained in Taiwan for 3 years and didn't see any Naihanchi kata (unless I was the one doing it). However that doesn't mean there isn't something similar. I saw a LOT of shing yi that looked like Okinawan karate though. I did see some drills that look like they could be related to Naihanchi.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 11, 2005)

I see a lot of different styles represented on this thread.  It would be interesting to compare our understand of the applications for these forms.  What are the general keys that you use to understand the application of these forms?

My teacher taught the following...

1.  Applications take place inline with the form AND at 45 degree angles from that line.
2.  There are striking applications.  There are grappling applications.  And there are applications that mix both.
3.  This form shows the location of some pressure points.

upnorthkyosa


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## RRouuselot (Feb 11, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I see a lot of different styles represented on this thread. It would be interesting to compare our understand of the applications for these forms. What are the general keys that you use to understand the application of these forms?
> 
> My teacher taught the following...
> 
> ...


 
 1)This is a common misconception. In real life an attack is unpredictable and can come from any direction, therefore the defense most be able to respond likewise. To say the defense should be this angle or that is limiting and unrealistic. Naihanchi, as well as all other kata, is no different, and you should be able respond using technique from the kata accordingly.

 2)This depends on what level you are at in training. At higher levels striking and grappling are rarely separated. The strikes can be stuns or full force depending on the need. 

        3)Unfortunately some folks have over emphasized pressure points and think everything is a KO.  This is not only grossly immature thinking but impractical and comes from lack of serious study and training not to mention laziness. All this color by numbers kyusho stuff like hit ST9 and GB20 is Bullshhhh.anyway, anyway its nonsense made up by people untrained in TCM. Here is an interesting thing.*ALL* kata can show pressure points to some degree or another. Another interesting thing..not all pressure points shown are KOs..in fact few are. Kata shows where you are hitting or it can show where you are being hit (and how to defend against it), it can show where to grab or where you are being grabbed (and how to defend against it).


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## glad2bhere (Feb 11, 2005)

Dear Robert: 

"....Here is an interesting thing.ALL kata can show pressure points to some degree or another. Another interesting thing..not all pressure points shown are KOs..in fact few are. Kata shows where you are hitting or it can show where you are being hit (and how to defend against it), it can show where to grab or where you are being grabbed (and how to defend against it)...." 

Major truth there! 

In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido we have 36 PP (give or take) and 46 strike points. The pressure points fall into either debilitating or facilitative. Debilitating impacts the neuromuscular system so as to impair the persons' ability to respond. Think of getting poked in the eye. Facilitative (aka manipulative) takes an effective technique and raises its efficacy by performing the technique while stimulating points at the same time. The elbow has at least 6 of these little dandies. Nothing exotic, or mystical--- just an understanding of where various structures under the skin intersect, thats all. 

But I have yet to run into the appropriate combination that gets a person to go catatonic like in the "chop-socky" movies. :uhyeah: 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## RRouuselot (Feb 11, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Robert:
> 
> "....Here is an interesting thing.ALL kata can show pressure points to some degree or another. Another interesting thing..not all pressure points shown are KOs..in fact few are. Kata shows where you are hitting or it can show where you are being hit (and how to defend against it), it can show where to grab or where you are being grabbed (and how to defend against it)...."
> 
> ...


    I like to think of anywhere I hit is a pressure pointif it wasnt one before I will MAKE it one. 

 We are in agreement on the striking of facilitative and manipulative areas. Striking some places just give your techniques a nice juice that makes them easier to execute. My teacher has done a kind of tuite on me where he strikes the same place he is going to do the tuite technique.he strikes and does the tuite at the same time. Talk about pain!
 I think people try to make pressure points more complicated and mystical than they really are. Specifically all the color by numbers kyusho crap. color by numbers kyusho really impresses uninitiated people with all its complex and exotic sounding principles and gives that over all chop socky feeling that some people enjoy..kind of like pate de Fuqua (sp?) sounds pretty cool if you dont speak French or know what it is..but in reality its just ground up goose liver. 

 A basic concept to consider when training..if it hurts they will go down..if it doesnt they wont. Or as my teachers says: no hurt no down


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)This is a common misconception. In real life an attack is unpredictable and can come from any direction, therefore the defense most be able to respond likewise. To say the defense should be this angle or that is limiting and unrealistic. Naihanchi, as well as all other kata, is no different, and you should be able respond using technique from the kata accordingly.



I read this part of your post and immediately went down to the dojang break down naihanchi again.  That is why it took so long for me to reply... :asian:

When my teacher taught about the direction in application, it was such a powerful learning tool.  When I went down and practiced some applications at 45 degree angles to the general movement of the form, I felt like my understanding of the kata was really clicking along.  I had a hard time trying to figure out applications for the techniques from attacks in all directions though...and maybe this just reflects my limited understanding of the kata.

I understand what you are saying regarding the unpredictability of defense, yet I think that with kata training and, especially with naihanchi, some of the directions of applications are rather obvious.  Moreover, trying to make some of the techniques work from all directions, didn't seem to work too well.

Any thoughts on that?



			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 2)This depends on what level you are at in training. At higher levels striking and grappling are rarely separated. The strikes can be stuns or full force depending on the need.



I'm thinking of a number of applications in naihanchi cho dan that fit this bill.  Wow, I love that kata! 



			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 3)Unfortunately some folks have over emphasized pressure points and think everything is a KO.  This is not only grossly immature thinking but impractical and comes from lack of serious study and training not to mention laziness. All this color by numbers kyusho stuff like hit ST9 and GB20 is Bullshhhh.anyway, anyway its nonsense made up by people untrained in TCM.



There is no "one size fits all" self defense.  Kyusho is no different.  I've always had a hard time with pp strikes.  During randori, I haven't had much success unless the difference in skill level was great.  I prefer simple strikes that lead into other techniques like chokes much better.  I do believe that if I trained pp strikes more, they would be more effective.  The key questions is _HOW_.  I'm getting tired of the lousy information out there on the subject.



			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here is an interesting thing.*ALL* kata can show pressure points to some degree or another. Another interesting thing..not all pressure points shown are KOs..in fact few are. Kata shows where you are hitting or it can show where you are being hit (and how to defend against it), it can show where to grab or where you are being grabbed (and how to defend against it).



My teacher says the exact same thing.   :asian:


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 12, 2005)

too many people practice naihanchi with attacks coming straight in or from a 45 degree angle simply because they think that it is what the kata was intended to defend against. the problem with approaching the kata breakdown with this attitude is that it highly limits what you can apply with the movements from the kata. another thing that i personally feel is wrong is the practice of taking a particular sequence of movements and using them verbatim in application. the best practice for me is to take a minute section of the kata and break it down as it applies to 1. escape or evasion 2. striking 3. grappling (throwing and locking). leave the whole PP thing alone for the time being and simply focus on what movements and mechanics the body is teaching you.
use the small portions of the kata with attacks from all angles, but dont fall into the trap of using the sequence with no variation. just because a hand happens to be chambered doesnt mean that hand isnt being used for something.


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## RRouuselot (Feb 12, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I read this part of your post and immediately went down to the dojang break down naihanchi again. That is why it took so long for me to reply... :asian:
> 
> When my teacher taught about the direction in application, it was such a powerful learning tool. When I went down and practiced some applications at 45 degree angles to the general movement of the form, I felt like my understanding of the kata was really clicking along. I had a hard time trying to figure out applications for the techniques from attacks in all directions though...and maybe this just reflects my limited understanding of the kata.
> 
> ...


 
 I am not saying the attack cant come from straight on or 45 degrees. Its actually difficult to convey via the internet. 

   Many tuite techniques that are in Naihanchi use footwork that may start going 45 degrees and then do almost 180 degrees..that is one hell of a crank on the guys joint too by the way. I cant post photos on this board for some reason so if anyone knows how let me and I will try to get some.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 12, 2005)

".....There is no "one size fits all" self defense. Kyusho is no different. I've always had a hard time with pp strikes. During randori, I haven't had much success unless the difference in skill level was great. I prefer simple strikes that lead into other techniques like chokes much better. I do believe that if I trained pp strikes more, they would be more effective. The key questions is HOW. I'm getting tired of the lousy information out there on the subject...." 

This is why a weapon is taught with each of the material associated with a dan rank in our kwan. For instance, it is not that one is going to use a soh bong (.5 inch by 6 in stick) so much as a weapon, though, of course it IS possible. The fact is that using the soh bong to train in thrusting techniques builds accuracy for identifying a specific spot for a pressure point. The same holds true for strike points and using a dan bong, and positions of disadvantage and using the cane. It all ties together. The current crop of pressure point folks need to back off to reality and understand that the typical warrior of one hundred years ago did not steep himself in arcane practices but sought to fight smarter, not harder. The return on learning 720 Accupuncture points to identify a handful of tried and true never fail points just wasn't in the cards. Still good stuff for chop/socky movies though, I suppose. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## RRouuselot (Feb 13, 2005)

Hopefully this will make sense so please bear with me. 








                                     Here is what I mean by not sticking strictly to the 45 degree or straight-line defense. 

 The above move in Naihanchi can be viewed as a strike, or several different kinds of strikes actually, and also a rear naked choke..this one you have to kind of look at it from a different perspective. The bottom arm is going to go around the throat and the top arm will push the attackers head forward. In order to do this technique the defender would need to maneuver behind the attacker. Obviously he cant go straight forward because the defender would be in the way. Therefore he must go around, or move the attacker around so he gets behind him. 








 In the above photo this technique can be seen as the beginning of an arm bar where Motobu has been punched at and pulled the attackers right fist/arm to his side and going to turn to his right in order to complete and arm bar with his left elbow, this technique has a kick to the knee that accompanies the rest of the technique.


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## BlackCatBonz (Feb 13, 2005)

:asian: .


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