# why do I mostly see older folks when attending adult Karate class?



## Dboxobi (Jun 8, 2022)

Karate classes Ive attended, I tend to see mostly folks in their mid 40s upwards all the way to 70s  (plus kids)      but very few young adults.     Is Karate more friendly for n aging body?


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## Instructor (Jun 9, 2022)

Older people have more time and money to pursue goals that would have been more difficult when they were younger because of just starting out, building a family etc.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 9, 2022)

Dboxobi said:


> Karate classes Ive attended, I tend to see mostly folks in their mid 40s upwards all the way to 70s  (plus kids)      but very few young adults.     Is Karate more friendly for n aging body?


Depends on the type of karate.

I'll bet a lot of people try to pick up a martial art during their midlife crisis.  It makes perfect sense given all the Marvel, Star Wars, and DC stuff out there.  People want to be like heroes, and you know, there's nothing wrong with that.  Forget the haters.  Find your own powers.

Let's face it, even if you haven't been into martial arts for long, or ever, the first 20 seconds of _Obi Wan Kenobi_ are going to make you want to get out of your chair and start becoming one with the Dao That Cannot Be Named.

I was certainly compelled, but at a much younger age.  And then again, and again, and again.  That's how it works, if it does.


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## donald1 (Jun 15, 2022)

I have a mixed opinion on this comment. In my experience most of the older students are experienced students. And it would seem obviously younger students gravitate towards different styles? I've met tons of younger students in Goju Ryu, but not so much with kung fu. At a reunion I went to 4 years ago(nearly 5), I remember one of the pictures taken was of the youngest person there(which ended up being me) and and the oldest. An older lady(forgot her age). I was 23 at the time and I thought it was funny that I was the youngest person attending the event. There were some other people not much older than myself, but I was a bit surprised there wasn't anyone there younger than myself at the time.

I suppose the answer to your question depends on the style or arguably rather, the class itself. What does the class focus on? Since, ya know, different schools prioritize different things. One may be geared towards self defense and fitness while another may be health and wellbeing.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 23, 2022)

Because most adults who want to do martial arts want something like KB or MT or BJJ, and most karate schools dont offer those kinds of classes


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## GojuTommy (Oct 23, 2022)

Instructor said:


> Older people have more time and money to pursue goals that would have been more difficult when they were younger because of just starting out, building a family etc.


Definitely not the reason.
Walk into an adult BJJ class, kickboxing, judo, or MT classes. You’ll see plenty of people between the ages of 18-40 training.

When most adults get interested in martial arts, traditional karate simply isn’t what they want.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 23, 2022)

donald1 said:


> I have a mixed opinion on this comment. In my experience most of the older students are experienced students. And it would seem obviously younger students gravitate towards different styles? I've met tons of younger students in Goju Ryu, but not so much with kung fu. At a reunion I went to 4 years ago(nearly 5), I remember one of the pictures taken was of the youngest person there(which ended up being me) and and the oldest. An older lady(forgot her age). I was 23 at the time and I thought it was funny that I was the youngest person attending the event. There were some other people not much older than myself, but I was a bit surprised there wasn't anyone there younger than myself at the time.
> 
> I suppose the answer to your question depends on the style or arguably rather, the class itself. What does the class focus on? Since, ya know, different schools prioritize different things. One may be geared towards self defense and fitness while another may be health and wellbeing.


Let’s face it, most ‘traditional’ karate schools focus on the same few things regardless of what they claim to teach. Kata being the biggest one, kihon, and compliant partner drills.

The reason younger people aren’t in adult classes (younger being relative) is that most ‘younger’ adults don’t want to do kata and kihon when they decide to do a martial art. Most of the low ranked adults likely are more interested in the dress up and the cultural pretend games(outside of Japan) the higher ranked obviously began train when they were younger at which point ‘younger’ again may be relative.


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## Holmejr (Oct 23, 2022)

Back a hundred years ago when I first started in the MA’s, traditional arts was basically all there was. BJJ, KM and MMA couldn’t be found. Now BJJ is practically in every shopping center and they’re right up a young persons alley. No Kata’s, less formal typically, grittier and a bit too physical for a 50 plus’r to start off in. The older guys you see in in those arts have usually been there a decade or so or just about to quit, LOL. The FMA arts, although not as physical in the beginning, become increasingly more physical and challenging at higher levels. I got home at 5 tonight from a 4 hour class we have sundays. I’m in bed, sore everyplace, in pain in a few specific places and watching the Highwaymen with Ken Costner. Now where’s my Advil?


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## skribs (Oct 23, 2022)

Why are young adults in arts like BJJ, but older adults or kids in arts like Karate?  Probably because Karate isn't as popular among UFC fighters as arts like BJJ.  But I think some of it is the old TMA vs combat sport debate.

Personally, I feel some of the benefits of forms are aimed at kids or older adults.  That's not to say they're useless to young adults (just hear me out).  Some of the mental things forms help with are memory, attention to detail, and studying habits; as well as the confidence that you are working on those.  Some of the physical benefit is learning the "Twister" (put your left foot here, your right hand there).

A little kid is going to be working on vocabulary, and translating that vocabulary into movement.  They're going to need to learn how to learn things, and forms give a great progress report of how much they've learned.  They need to start learning that details are important.

A 20-year-old college student probably already has good study habits, attention-to-detail, and their memory is at its prime.  If they are pursuing athletics at this age, there's a good chance they are already athletic and know how to play Twister.

A 50-year-old adult is going to be worried about exercising their memory to stave off dementia and Alzheimer's.  If they don't have an athletic background, they may need to relearn how to communicate with their own body.  And since sparring leaves bruises, and bruises take longer and longer to heal the older you are, forms are a nice alternative.

That's not to say there's no reason for a 20-year-old to do forms.  But these are what I think forms do that other types of drill cannot do as well, and these benefits will hit harder for a kid or an older adult.


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## MetalBoar (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> A 50-year-old adult is going to be worried about exercising their memory to stave off dementia and Alzheimer's.  If they don't have an athletic background, they may need to relearn how to communicate with their own body.  And since sparring leaves bruises, and bruises take longer and longer to heal the older you are, forms are a nice alternative.


I don't know which 50 year old's you know.  Being 51 and having friends spanning ages from early 20's to mid 70's (not counting my parents, in their 80's), when you talk about dementia concerns I think you're off by a decade or two for most people.  There do seem to be a few people I went to high school with who now make a lot of "senior moments" kind of jokes on Facebook, but they're the minority and mostly don't seem too serious.  I don't associate directly with anyone in my generation who feels like they've lost too many mental steps yet, nor do they seem too concerned about it in the future either.  The people I know who even think about it are the types of health nuts (like me) who are life hackers and optimizers and have been making choices to fend off aging, of all sorts, since they hit 30 (or earlier).


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I don't know which 50 year old's you know.  Being 51 and having friends spanning ages from early 20's to mid 70's (not counting my parents, in their 80's), when you talk about dementia concerns I think you're off by a decade or two for most people.  There do seem to be a few people I went to high school with who now make a lot of "senior moments" kind of jokes on Facebook, but they're the minority and mostly don't seem too serious.  I don't associate directly with anyone in my generation who feels like they've lost too many mental steps yet, nor do they seem too concerned about it in the future either.  The people I know who even think about it are the types of health nuts (like me) who are life hackers and optimizers and have been making choices to fend off aging, of all sorts, since they hit 30 (or earlier).


It's a more direct concern later on, but it's something to get ahead of.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

Dboxobi said:


> Karate classes Ive attended, I tend to see mostly folks in their mid 40s upwards all the way to 70s  (plus kids)      but very few young adults.     Is Karate more friendly for n aging body?


It's because we oldies believe in "old and sneaky beats young and fit" so we go out of our way to beat up and demoralise young people with our amazing skills.😂😂

Seriously, I'm not noticed more old than young but then 40 isn't old.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 24, 2022)

Dboxobi said:


> Karate classes Ive attended, I tend to see mostly folks in their mid 40s upwards all the way to 70s  (plus kids)      but very few young adults.     Is Karate more friendly for n aging body?


I wonder if the classes you saw were segregated by age. But there are many reasons this could be true. Most 40-somethings have a full life and family. Downtime from a physical injury is a bigger deal for them compared to a 20-year-old who is unattached and unencumbered. 
I know of several 40-somethings that are still very active in tournaments of various styles.


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> I wonder if the classes you saw were segregated by age. But there are many reasons this could be true. Most 40-somethings have a full life and family. Downtime from a physical injury is a bigger deal for them compared to a 20-year-old who is unattached and unencumbered.
> I know of several 40-somethings that are still very active in tournaments of various styles.


I've not seen a martial arts class that separates young adults from older adults.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> I've not seen a martial arts class that separates young adults from older adults.


I agree but having not seen what the OP was referring to I am speculating.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I don't know which 50 year old's you know.  Being 51 and having friends spanning ages from early 20's to mid 70's (not counting my parents, in their 80's), when you talk about dementia concerns I think you're off by a decade or two for most people.  There do seem to be a few people I went to high school with who now make a lot of "senior moments" kind of jokes on Facebook, but they're the minority and mostly don't seem too serious.  I don't associate directly with anyone in my generation who feels like they've lost too many mental steps yet, nor do they seem too concerned about it in the future either.  The people I know who even think about it are the types of health nuts (like me) who are life hackers and optimizers and have been making choices to fend off aging, of all sorts, since they hit 30 (or earlier).


He’s not wrong about staving off things like dementia and Alzheimer’s in your 50s.
Honestly it’s something we should be thinking about in our 20s.

I forget if it’s dementia or Alzheimer’s, but a famous chess champion got one of those two, but he never got as bad as most people. What happened was his brain went from being able to think 15 moves ahead, to only 10, to only 5 to only 2 or 3.

All he’s saying is around 50 a lot of people are going to be thinking about dementia more than most people do around 30.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> I've not seen a martial arts class that separates young adults from older adults.


And this is one of the biggest problems with martial arts schools in the US.

1. The way a class should be run is vastly different for 5yr olds vs 15 yr olds vs 25 yr olds. So a class with 5 yr olds has to cater to the lowest common denominator which means older students really aren’t getting as much out of class as they could.
2. There’s never a reason to put young children in positions that could make them think that theyre in a peer group with adults. There’s really no good reason for a 25 year old student to be put into close social settings with 14 or 17 year olds they’re not related to.

I came up in a mixed age dojo and I realized now it had me thinking I was more mature and more adult than I was. Then there’s the risk of predators. I’m sure we all heard about those girls in HS who were 14 or 15 but had 20+ year old boyfriends.

It really didn’t hit me how weird this all was though until stingray was introduced in Cobra Kai. He is a parody but a great example of why adults need to be kept out of classes that have minors in them.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 24, 2022)

A lot of science is starting to show that various lifestyle choices, especially lack of exercise and poor diet, correlate with dementia, including early onset (before 50).  Smoking, obesity, alcohol, high cholesterol etc.

And (potentially based on a recent study or two) drinking diet soda. 

So the idea that Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia are something you get from the genetic lottery...sadly no.  Many people with it have contributed to their decline.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> It's because we oldies believe in "old and sneaky beats young and fit" so we go out of our way to beat up and demoralise young people with our amazing skills.😂😂
> 
> Seriously, I'm not noticed more old than young but then 40 isn't old.


When it comes to sports 40 is old. When a professional athlete hits 40 that’s about the time most of them begin to consider retiring from play and shift over to coaching if they’re not going to retire from the sport completely.

Everything is relative, but also to a 20 year old 40 is old. To my 80 yr old grandparents 40 is still young. To me 40 is basically my peer group lol


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> I've not seen a martial arts class that separates young adults from older adults.


I have.  For obvious reasons, in grappling classes it's not ok for adults to wrestle with kids.

And even a TKD class I did a free lesson at separates kids from adults at under 16.

Honestly if there's any decent amount of physical contact, I don't know why you'd want your kid doing that with a fully grown 30 year old dude that could easily hurt them.  

If there's zero contact (...) then there's probably no big deal mixing them, but if I were an instructor I'd be very cautious with the adults who are eager to train with kids.  Sadly we live in a world where sick people seek out places like that.


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> And this is one of the biggest problems with martial arts schools in the US.
> 
> 1. The way a class should be run is vastly different for 5yr olds vs 15 yr olds vs 25 yr olds. So a class with 5 yr olds has to cater to the lowest common denominator which means older students really aren’t getting as much out of class as they could.
> 2. There’s never a reason to put young children in positions that could make them think that theyre in a peer group with adults. There’s really no good reason for a 25 year old student to be put into close social settings with 14 or 17 year olds they’re not related to.
> ...


I disagree with all of your opinions in this post.  But first, I must disagree with the facts.  In the post you quoted, I was talking about young adults and older adults.  Not 5 year olds and 25 year olds; but rather 25 year olds and 50 year olds.  So you're already arguing with a point I didn't make.

With that said, older people mentor younger people all of the time.  Experienced people mentor inexperienced people all of the time.  When I first started in Taekwondo, there was a 15-year-old girl who was a 3rd-degree black belt, who taught me a lot during my first year.  I was 25.  In the adult class, we had students age 13+.  We sometimes had younger students, if they couldn't make it to the kid's class due to schedule conflicts, or if they were family members of older students (or a few that were 12 but more like teenagers than kids).  

When teenagers are put into that position of being in class with adults, they have examples of how to behave like adults.  They're also going to be in peer groups with adults when they get a job.  When I was 16, I started attending college through a Running Start program, and I was in class with adults.  Heck, I tutored adults.

Yes, there are predators.  Yes, Stingray was a bad example.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't work the vast majority of the time.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

@skribs
I see you already replied so this is an edit.

Children don’t learn how to act like adults by attending karate classes with adults in them. They can learn how adults act in karate classes sure…but it should be the instructor who sets the standard for the teens and enforces that standard.

A 17 year old taught a 25 yr old you stuff cool, doesn’t change the fact that it’s weird that you were interacting that closely with a child who was a stranger.
There’s no other activity of the sort where random strange adults are put into close social settings as children as equals, or even as instructors.

I’ve never heard of a dance class that had 15 year olds and 40 year olds in class together.

Never heard of a soccer or volleyball or basketball league or team that did the same.

There’s no reason for teens and random adults to be interacting in close social settings on a regular basis.


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I have.  For obvious reasons, in grappling classes it's not ok for adults to wrestle with kids.
> 
> And even a TKD class I did a free lesson at separates kids from adults at under 16.
> 
> ...


1) I said young adults and older adults, not kids and adults.
2) Adults understand the responsibility of not hurting kids.  I'd be much more worried about a 10-year-old in the same class as a 6-year-old, than a 30-year-old with either of the kids.


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> @skribs
> Is there a particular part of my post you disagree with?
> 
> It’s scientifically proven the environments necessary to teach young children is inappropriate for teens, and the same goes for teens and people who are 20+
> ...


Not a particular part of it.  The entire post.

It's been my experience that with proper leadership, you can have a class that has kids, teenagers, and adults.  

Same goes for 15 year olds and 30 year olds being in class together.  For one, Stingray was the *only* adult and Karate was being treated as a kids-only sport.  (Nevermind how Daniel and Johnny are still learning Karate as adults).  Taekwondo was often a family affair, where you would have mom, dad, teenagers, and kids all in the same class.  Take that away, and they might not do martial arts.

I taught for several years in this environment.  To say it's scientifically proven not to work, well...those scientists are idiots.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> 1) I said young adults and older adults, not kids and adults.
> 2) Adults understand the responsibility of not hurting kids.  I'd be much more worried about a 10-year-old in the same class as a 6-year-old, than a 30-year-old with either of the kids.


I do apologize though as it seems I misread your post as 
Young people and older adults.

That’s my bad


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> 1) I said young adults and older adults, not kids and adults.
> 2) Adults understand the responsibility of not hurting kids.  I'd be much more worried about a 10-year-old in the same class as a 6-year-old, than a 30-year-old with either of the kids.



So when you say "young adult" you mean 18 year olds.  Ok.  In some places it's going to be younger, like 16.

But on the number 2, I don't know dude.  "Adults understand the responsibility..." that's a very idealistic broad stroke and it doesn't stack up with my life experiences.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> So when you say "young adult" you mean 18 year olds.  Ok.  In some places it's going to be younger, like 16.
> 
> But on the number 2, I don't know dude.  "Adults understand the responsibility..." that's a very idealistic broad stroke and it doesn't stack up with my life experiences.


I created a thread specifically for this topic so we don’t get this thread off topic 
too much.





__





						Mixed age group classes needs to stop
					

I know a lot of schools have classes that are open to all students from their minimum age up to any aged adult who wants to join.  I was part of one of those dojos, and it took Cobra Kai and Stingray for me to really see how messed up it is to have children and adults in the same class.  1...



					www.martialtalk.com


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## MetalBoar (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> He’s not wrong about staving off things like dementia and Alzheimer’s in your 50s.
> Honestly it’s something we should be thinking about in our 20s.
> 
> I forget if it’s dementia or Alzheimer’s, but a famous chess champion got one of those two, but he never got as bad as most people. What happened was his brain went from being able to think 15 moves ahead, to only 10, to only 5 to only 2 or 3.
> ...


I do agree that if you care about a long, healthy and functional life you should start working on it as young as possible, and that includes things to keep your brain sharp.  We're definitely on the same page there.

Where I disagree is that I don't think very many people _actually _think about dementia until it happens to someone they care about _and_ can relate to in that way, or until they start to feel the effects themselves.  So, sure, more people in their 50's have had that experience with a loved one in their life than people in their 30's.  I just think that the number of 50 year old's motivated to take up an athletic endeavor for brain health, as opposed to general health, is only slightly higher than 30 year old's, and in general, in both age groups, it's the same sort of personality.  So, if theoretically say 2% of 30 y.o. MA students are taking it in part for mental health reasons then maybe 3-4% of 50 y.o. might be too.

For me it went the other direction, I became more cautious about doing things with a lot of head strikes because I didn't want to damage my brain.  If there had been more awareness about CTE when I was young I'd have cared more then too.

I was taking a Tai Chi class before the pandemic.  Being Tai Chi, far more than karate, it attracted an older crowd, and being in a neighborhood that had a number of age restricted communities (55+), and being a _very _inexpensive class at the local community center, the average age was much, much higher than any MA class I'd ever taken.  The youngest students were in their late 30's and the oldest were in their late 70's and I'd guess the median age was about 65, maybe older.  The format was seasonal sessions (it being a community center) but the instruction was ongoing if you kept re-enrolling.

At the beginning of each session the instructor asked everyone why they were there and what they wanted to learn.  It was a large and popular class, with a waiting list, and I was there for ~ 2 years so I got to hear a lot of people give their answers.  The only mental health concern I heard from anyone under ~65 was stress management.  Even the students in their 70's were usually there to improve their balance, if they had a health concern, or simply to do something indoors to keep active.  Only a few expressed concerns about cognitive decline.  At least as many of those in their 70's said they were there to learn push hands and applications.  I'm sure they chose Tai Chi because it seems a lot less likely to produce injury than Judo or Muay Thai, but they were still motivated by an interest in the martial part of martial arts, even if primarily academically.  So, sure, I expect some 50 year old's take karate to do katas to reduce their Alzheimer's risk, but I think it's a pretty low percentage that are even thinking about it.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I do agree that if you care about a long, healthy and functional life you should start working on it as young as possible, and that includes things to keep your brain sharp.  We're definitely on the same page there.
> 
> Where I disagree is that I don't think very many people _actually _think about it until it happens to someone they care about _and_ can relate to in that way, or until they start to feel the effects themselves.  So, sure, more people in their 50's have had that experience with a loved one in their life than people in their 30's.  I just think that the number of 50 year old's motivated to take up an athletic endeavor for brain health, as opposed to general health, is only slightly higher than 30 year old's, and in general, in both age groups, it's the same sort of personality.  So, if theoretically say 2% of 30 y.o. MA students are taking it in part for mental health reasons then maybe 3-4% of 50 y.o. might be too.
> 
> ...


Oh I agree I don’t think avoiding dementia is a driving factor, but yeah for older people I just don’t see them wanting to get into MT or boxing. Kung fu, karate, aikido, tai chi, etc just seem to be the sort of styles that older people will prefer


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## MetalBoar (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Oh I agree I don’t think avoiding dementia is a driving factor, but yeah for older people I just don’t see them wanting to get into MT or boxing. Kung fu, karate, aikido, tai chi, etc just seem to be the sort of styles that older people will prefer


That's probably true in general, and I'm sure it becomes more true the older people get, but it hasn't been my experience.  When I think about my friends (pre-pandemic) who were between 40 and 60 and doing martial arts, I knew 2 people doing Tai Chi (that includes me and I got the other guy into it), 2 people doing MMA and FMA, one guy who does everything, got his BJJ black belt in his 40's and still regularly does serious MMA sparring in his early 50's, and several people doing HEMA.  The guy I got into Tai Chi wanted to do something like BJJ but I convinced him to try the Tai Chi because the instructor was awesome.  Before Tai Chi, I was taking private boxing lessons, but the guy I was training with moved.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> That's probably true in general, and I'm sure it becomes more true the older people get, but it hasn't been my experience.  When I think about my friends (pre-pandemic) who were between 40 and 60 and doing martial arts, I knew 2 people doing Tai Chi (that includes me and I got the other guy into it), 2 people doing MMA and FMA, one guy who does everything, got his BJJ black belt in his 40's and still regularly does serious MMA sparring in his early 50's, and several people doing HEMA.  The guy I got into Tai Chi wanted to do something like BJJ but I convinced him to try the Tai Chi because the instructor was awesome.  Before Tai Chi, I was taking private boxing lessons, but the guy I was training with moved.


Sounds like you’ve got some interesting friends!

I’d say the BJJ guy should be excluded from this discussion since he would have had to have started BJJ no later than 32 to have a blackbelt by now(assuming a legit school) 

But yes in general I think karate schools just don’t provide what the younger people want, and karate provides something the older people find desirable


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> A 50-year-old adult is going to be worried about exercising their memory to stave off dementia and Alzheimer's.


I just hit 50.  The lady thing I think about is my memory.


skribs said:


> And since sparring leaves bruises, and bruises take longer and longer to heal the older you are, forms are a nice alternative.


I get bruises.  It takes longer to heal.  I heal.  It's only a problem when stuff stops healing.  the biggest change is that I'm less willing to punish my body to show how tough I 

As far as my mental health , I just try to keep my mind learning new things.  I read somewhere that the best way to maintain the brain is to use it. And to recode it to new learning.  If we don't use it then we'll lose it.


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I just hit 50. The lady thing I think about is my memory.


How about cognition in general.  For example, saying "the lady thing I think about" when you mean "the last thing I think about."


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I’m sure we all heard about those girls in HS who were 14 or 15 but had 20+ year old boyfriends.


That has less to do with predatory behaviour and more to do with the fact that 14/15 year old girls are mentally the same age as 20 yr old males, the age being 17. That's not excusing under age sex etc just that 14/15 year old boys are awful to go out with.

40 being old in a sport is entirely dependent on the sport. My other sports are equestrian ones, age is basically irrelevant. Sports requiring stamina tend to have older people being successful. Mostly though it's not the sport itself that limits older people but the pressure of constant competition so many sports have. In football (proper football ⚽) there used to be one match on a Saturday afternoon, maybe one on a Wednesday night all leading to a cup final at the end of the season. If you were good enough to represent your country you played those matches. However, now that it's big business for clubs teams are playing far more, league games, cup games (just how many cups are available now?) so many national managers are finding it hard to call players up for internationals. One element of this is 'magic spray syndrome', basically the use of steroids injections etc to mask injuries, the physio runs on, sprays injury with cold spray so player can continue, then steroid injections after. A lot of players had sustained far more serious career ending injuries because of this, there is literally no resting an injury, the pressure to play is immense.
Better fitness, better nutrition etc all help to extend careers but the sheer volume of competitions leaves you like Andy Murray, regardless of age.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> How about cognition in general.  For example, saying "the lady thing I think about" when you mean "the last thing I think about."


That's mainly technology on my android and the swipe feature. My only fault is not going back to read before sending.  Or me not tapping the words out.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's mainly technology on my android and the swipe feature. My only fault is not going back to read before sending.  Or me not tapping the words out.


The first issue that most have to deal with are. Over weight, diabetes, or high blood pressure. Those tend to sneak up on people.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> How about cognition in general.  For example, saying "the lady thing I think about" when you mean "the last thing I think about."


For me the cognition thing tends to be with learning new things that I think of as fads.  If I don't think I need it then I won't learn it.

Social media platforms and mobile phone are low on my list of things to learn.  Pretty strange for a guy that works on an IT service desk.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> How about cognition in general.  For example, saying "the lady thing I think about" when you mean "the last thing I think about."


How about his phone replaced last with lady.

Funny thing, I read his post right and the phones error didn't register.

I exercise every day.  /Flex


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## MetalBoar (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Sounds like you’ve got some interesting friends!
> 
> I’d say the *BJJ guy should be excluded* from this discussion since he would have had to have started BJJ no later than 32 to have a blackbelt by now(assuming a legit school)
> 
> But yes in general I think karate schools just don’t provide what the younger people want, and karate provides something the older people find desirable


I do have some interesting friends!

If we're limiting ourselves to only talking about people taking MA for the first time at 40+ that's a whole other thing.  Of my friends doing martial arts at that age, the only ones that started after 40 might be the 2 doing MMA and FMA, they're a couple and wanted to do something active together and if it was MA then they wanted it to have some practical application to self defense.  Even then, I'm not sure if they count, depending on what you consider an MA, she has been an avid archer for a long time and he _may_ have done MA before, in his youth, but the current class is the first MA he's done since I've known him (about 15 years).

The BJJ guy has trained in everything, and it really does seem like everything.  He's amazingly skilled at MA.  He started at a young age and has been really serious about it without any breaks ever since.  I've been doing MA off and on since I was 16.  The guy taking Tai Chi with me took kung fu in the 1980's at a place that did knock down sparring (things were different in the '70's and '80's), but he hadn't trained in 25+ years.  The HEMA people have been doing it forever, more than a couple of them since HEMA came into existence, or before if you count sport fencing.

I think people who start MA for the first time ever in their 40's+ mainly start for 1 (or more) of 3 or 4 reasons:

They have kids who do it.
They want to get in shape and love action movies.
They've had some event in their life that makes them feel less safe and they want to learn some self defense.
If we include people who did it as kids but stopped when they were still young, I think you can add a variation on #2; they want to get in shape and they remember karate/judo/tkd or whatever as being a lot more fun than grinding out hours on a treadmill.
And that explains a lot of why there are older people in Karate:


Modern karate schools tend to be very kid focused (yes, exceptions, I know, but it's largely true in my experience) so that means their customers tend to be kids and their parents.  Heck, I'd love to do a traditional karate class that did at least occasional hard sparring, but every school I've checked out (and that's a lot) I'd have been doing point sparring with a bunch of 16 year old's and a few of their parents who seem way older than me, even if they're younger.  I would feel pretty awkward in that environment and I bet a lot of people older than about 20, with no kids, would too.
If all you know about martial arts is what you've seen on TV and you want to look like that, then TKD and, to a slightly lesser extent, karate are going to be the obvious go to choices.  Plenty of high kicks and there's probably a school in the shopping center down the street.  Who cares if they only do kata and occasional point sparring if you just want to be able do things that look cool and get in shape?
Most of these people probably don't end up in karate, but hopefully they're small in number.  They do BJJ, maybe MMA, maybe Krav Maga or an RBSD program, maybe FMA, because weapons give you a big edge if you're really worried about someone hurting you.  Those who are really worried probably learn how to use a gun.  And let's be honest, if you have legitimate reason to fear for your life here in the US, learning how to shoot a gun and retain it under stress is probably your best bet.  EDIT:  If they're older enough to have physical challenges the gun or FMA becomes more likely.  They might also do Aikido if they're been convinced it will work for anyone regardless of size or strength.
People who did MA as a kid, and haven't paid any attention to MA since, are likely to go back to what they did before.  For people my age, in the US, that's very likely to be karate, TKD, judo or maybe kung fu.  In the '70's and '80's there was no BJJ, even in big cities Muay Thai was tough to find, boxing wasn't widely available to kids, until very recently you couldn't find wrestling classes for adults, etc.  So, if you're in this category and 50, karate is a likely choice.
EDIT: I'll add that the other reason an older person might be in karate is because they never stopped doing it and started when they were young and karate was cool, and also one of the only options available.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I do have some interesting friends!
> 
> If we're limiting ourselves to only talking about people taking MA for the first time at 40+ that's a whole other thing.  Of my friends doing martial arts at that age, the only ones that started after 40 might be the 2 doing MMA and FMA, they're a couple and wanted to do something active together and if it was MA then they wanted it to have some practical application to self defense.  Even then, I'm not sure if they count, depending on what you consider an MA, she has been an avid archer for a long time and he _may_ have done MA before, in his youth, but the current class is the first MA he's done since I've known him (about 15 years).
> 
> ...


I would exclude anyone who started a more combat sport focused art in their 20s or 30s because that supports the position that people in that age group lean towards those styles, and simply getting a bit older isn’t much of a motivation to switch styles.

Your couple friend I would count because they started a more combat sport focused style in those later years.

I largely agree with those reasons, but I would add fear/apprehension about styles like MT or KB to that list. Fear of injury, apprehensive about being judged by the younger adults, and other similar concerns.


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## MetalBoar (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I would exclude anyone who started a more combat sport focused art in their 20s or 30s because that supports the position that people in that age group lean towards those styles, and simply getting a bit older isn’t much of a motivation to switch styles.
> 
> Your couple friend I would count because they started a more combat sport focused style in those later years.
> 
> I largely agree with those reasons, but I would add fear/apprehension about styles like MT or KB to that list. Fear of injury, apprehensive about being judged by the younger adults, and other similar concerns.


I think fear of injury and fear of judgement keeps the a lot of people of all ages out of martial arts.  I think you're right that fear of injury increases with age and the incentive to be good at fighting tends to decline with age as well.  I'm not sure how many people who haven't done MA have enough information to judge the relative risk difference between point sparring karate and full contact Muay Thai.  I think just watching a Judo class and seeing people thrown to the mat might be enough to scare a lot of older people off.  Since a lot of BJJ schools focus very heavily on ground work, it can seem pretty tame in comparison to karate if you don't really know what you're looking at.  I'm not sure how much assessment the uninitiated do, or even can do accurately, before they start an MA class.

And that's the thing, in my experience, most people who've reached 40 without ever taking an MA view most of it as juvenile silliness that's only appropriate for kids (karate, TKD, etc.), as thuggish brutality (MMA, boxing), or for really old people (Tai Chi - if they even know it's a martial art).  They aren't going to take any MA.  Those who don't have these views usually still only know what they remember from what their friends did in grade school, so karate, TKD, Judo, maybe kung fu, or want to look like a movie star, or have kids who train.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I think fear of injury and fear of judgement keeps the a lot of people of all ages out of martial arts.  I think you're right that fear of injury increases with age and the incentive to be good at fighting tends to decline with age as well.  I'm not sure how many people who haven't done MA have enough information to judge the relative risk difference between point sparring karate and full contact Muay Thai.  I think just watching a Judo class and seeing people thrown to the mat might be enough to scare a lot of older people off.  Since a lot of BJJ schools focus very heavily on ground work, it can seem pretty tame in comparison to karate if you don't really know what you're looking at.  I'm not sure how much assessment the uninitiated do, or even can do accurately, before they start an MA class.
> 
> And that's the thing, in my experience, most people who've reached 40 without ever taking an MA view most of it as juvenile silliness that's only appropriate for kids (karate, TKD, etc.), as thuggish brutality (MMA, boxing), or for really old people (Tai Chi - if they even know it's a martial art).  They aren't going to take any MA.  Those who don't have these views usually still only know what they remember from what their friends did in grade school, so karate, TKD, Judo, maybe kung fu, or want to look like a movie star, or have kids who train.


I think adults interested will do at least some basic research even if it only goes as far as a few watching some YouTube videos after googling a list of martial arts to ‘get an idea’ about what they are.

But at the end of the day any reasons as to why, we can’t know with any certainty until someone does a study or a wide ranging poll.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 25, 2022)

Dboxobi said:


> Karate classes Ive attended, I tend to see mostly folks in their mid 40s upwards all the way to 70s  (plus kids)      but very few young adults.     Is Karate more friendly for n aging body?


Younger adults often do not have the available time to devote to things like martial arts.  Same reason I see a lot of guys in their 20s and their 50s on motorcycles.  In between, they're raising families.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Younger adults often do not have the available time to devote to things like martial arts.  Same reason I see a lot of guys in their 20s and their 50s on motorcycles.  In between, they're raising families.


I mean that’s just not true. There’s plenty of young adults participating in MMA, MT, BJJ, etc.
Also the millennial generation has a much lower rate of having children than gen X or boomers, so you can’t really blame it on having kids. In fact that’s likely one of the biggest motivators for adults in their upper 20s to 40s starting karate, to have an activity they can share with their kids even if they’re not in the same class, it’s something they can then do together at home, and engage with them on.

So that makes the question, why are people in their 20s and 30s picking other martial arts over karate, and what can the karate community change to attract those age groups.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I mean that’s just not true. There’s plenty of young adults participating in MMA, MT, BJJ, etc.
> Also the millennial generation has a much lower rate of having children than gen X or boomers, so you can’t really blame it on having kids. In fact that’s likely one of the biggest motivators for adults in their upper 20s to 40s starting karate, to have an activity they can share with their kids even if they’re not in the same class, it’s something they can then do together at home, and engage with them on.
> 
> So that makes the question, why are people in their 20s and 30s picking other martial arts over karate, and what can the karate community change to attract those age groups.


Oh OK. Guess I'm wrong. I'll have to imagine back the people from my dojo who quit to raise families.  My mistake, they just ran off to learn BJJ.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So that makes the question, why are people in their 20s and 30s picking other martial arts over karate,


I'm not sure that's even true.  Maybe, but I think the idea that everyone is rushing to BJJ or MT may be exaggerated.
In the 1960-1980 era, most of the students were teens to 20's.  There used to be boxing clubs (even in college) and judo schools before that.  Karate pretty much put them out of business.  In the 1990's, lots of kids (especially in TDK) signed up.  

Today, I really don't know for sure.  People in the age group you're talking about are too wrapped up in their smart phones and social media.  If true, the popularity of MMA and UFC television would be a driving force.  So, things come and go out of style.  Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't.


GojuTommy said:


> what can the karate community change to attract those age.


This is a good question.  We are past the time of Count Dante and his "death touch."  The popular idea of karate being just block-kick-punch; people are looking for excitement and realism these days.  I think if we can convey that karate is a complex system with nasty effective stuff, grabbing and locking/hitting and takedowns, it may attract that age group.  Just how to do that, I'm not sure.  A major PR drive may do that, but that would take an organized effort, and traditional karate is anything but organized.

But there is another question:  Who cares if what you say is true (unless you have a commercial school.)??  Karate was originally developed and taught to a few select students.  Then it exploded to the general masses with the resulting dilution of quality.  Maybe it's time to cycle back to the old days?


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## GojuTommy (Oct 29, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I'm not sure that's even true.  Maybe, but I think the idea that everyone is rushing to BJJ or MT may be exaggerated.
> In the 1960-1980 era, most of the students were teens to 20's.  There used to be boxing clubs (even in college) and judo schools before that.  Karate pretty much put them out of business.  In the 1990's, lots of kids (especially in TDK) signed up.
> 
> Today, I really don't know for sure.  People in the age group you're talking about are too wrapped up in their smart phones and social media.  If true, the popularity of MMA and UFC television would be a driving force.  So, things come and go out of style.  Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't.
> ...


Karate was also only taught to and by the wealthy in those days.

Weird how the response to how do we change karate got such a different response here lol.

Any way, yeah the karate community is very unorganized, and unfortunately a huge portion are mcdojos.

I think there’s very little you or I or any other individual can do to change perceptions as a whole.
We all need to be active parts of this rebranding and evolution of training methods, but I think things like Cobra Kai, Karate Combat, and the major karate tubers and really push and supporting karateka in MMA and KB is where a lot of that will happen.

Knowing what major pro fighters come from our styles or the parent styles to our styles if we’re doing an off shoot, and being able to point to them and say “see them we can teach you to be like them.”

On a related note, I would love cobra Kai and karate combat team up for a season or two not the main characters are all about to turn 18 and will be aging out of the all valley


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 30, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> We are past the time of Count Dante and his "death touch."


I so wish that were true.  

People sign up for that stuff to this day and pay cash money up front for it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Karate was also only taught to and by the wealthy in those days.
> 
> Weird how the response to how do we change karate got such a different response here lol.
> 
> ...


Karate was only taught to the wealthy in the 1960s to 80s? And wasn't well organised?
You are assuming what happens in the US is what happens elsewhere. Karate in Europe and the UK wasn't for the rich at all, in the 60s the JKA sent out senior instructors from Japan to different countries to bring and teach karate. In 1965 Keinosuke Enoeda along with three other instructors came to the UK to set up and teach Shotokan.
Wado Ryu did the same, the first Japanese instructor was Tatsuo Suzuki, the founder himself even came across to teach at a seminar.
None of these taught 'the rich', the organisations they founded are still going strong. My original instructor trained under Suzuki.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Karate was only taught to the wealthy in the 1960s to 80s? And wasn't well organised?
> You are assuming what happens in the US is what happens elsewhere. Karate in Europe and the UK wasn't for the rich at all, in the 60s the JKA sent out senior instructors from Japan to different countries to bring and teach karate. In 1965 Keinosuke Enoeda along with three other instructors came to the UK to set up and teach Shotokan.
> Wado Ryu did the same, the first Japanese instructor was Tatsuo Suzuki, the founder himself even came across to teach at a seminar.
> None of these taught 'the rich', the organisations they founded are still going strong. My original instructor trained under Suzuki.


No one said anything about the 60s or 80s I was literally replying to a comment about karate originally being taught to small groups.

Karate wasn’t being taught only to small groups in those decades. It was already being taught to large groups. Try to make an argument that isn’t a strawman.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I so wish that were true.
> 
> People sign up for that stuff to this day and pay cash money up front for it.


Idk if dillman claims to be karate, but yeah people still fall for that ****.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> No one said anything about the 60s or 80s I was literally replying to a comment about karate originally being taught to small groups.
> 
> Karate wasn’t being taught only to small groups in those decades. It was already being taught to large groups. Try to make an argument that isn’t a strawman.


Ah you were in the UK in the 60s then.

Do stop wriggling like a vicar seen in a sex shop, it's amusing but ridiculous. Just answer, instead of telling posters you didn't say this or that, it's happening so many times makes you look like a politician.

We get you're invested in your opinion so here's an idea, instead of criticising everyone else why don't you go off and train the way you think it should be done then come back and show us the videos 😁


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Ah you were in the UK in the 60s then.
> 
> Do stop wriggling like a vicar seen in a sex shop, it's amusing but ridiculous. Just answer, instead of telling posters you didn't say this or that, it's happening so many times makes you look like a politician.
> 
> We get you're invested in your opinion so here's an idea, instead of criticising everyone else why don't you go off and train the way you think it should be done then come back and show us the videos 😁


No one is talking about the 60s and no one mentioned the UK. why are you ignoring the context of my post?


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> No one is talking about the 60s and no one mentioned the UK. why are you ignoring the context of my post?


Sigh, I mentioned the UK because you specifically said karate as if it only exists in the US, you mentioned the 60s, mon ami.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Idk if dillman claims to be karate, but yeah people still fall for that ****.


First hit on G is "American karateka".  At least the Wiki has some info on the nonsense he often teaches.

And that's why the people earnestly trying to learn karate the right way need proper guidance.  One of the nice things about kata is that if they are legit, they are typically BS-free.  In other words, most BS in martial arts must be pretty new.  It's not the old stuff, that stuff survived centuries.  Old BS died in the field.

And there's definitely non-legit kata etc, but that's why scholarly interest in these old forms is so important.

Sanskrit, dude.  Dead language, but invaluable to human evolution.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> First hit on G is "American karateka".  At least the Wiki has some info on the nonsense he often teaches.
> 
> And that's why the people earnestly trying to learn karate the right way need proper guidance.  One of the nice things about kata is that if they are legit, they are typically BS-free.  In other words, most BS in martial arts must be pretty new.  It's not the old stuff, that stuff survived centuries.  Old BS died in the field.
> 
> ...


What do you consider‘pretty new’?
There’s video of ueshiba doing no touch BS with his students.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> What do you consider‘pretty new’?
> There’s video of ueshiba doing no touch BS with his students.


I'd say between the post colonial age and now. Ueshiba's personal art evolved a lot between his youth and the postwar era.  It went from very violent to almost pacifist. 

So consider what that "no touch BS" actually is. Post the video it'll help put things in context.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'd say between the post colonial age and now. Ueshiba's personal art evolved a lot between his youth and the postwar era.  It went from very violent to almost pacifist.
> 
> So consider what that "no touch BS" actually is. Post the video it'll help put things in context.


Here’s an example


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Here’s an example


Ok thanks.

There's no BS in that video.  Whatever BS you think 🤔 is there is probably something else.

I just see ukemi training, and a seriously agile old dude moving like the wind.

Like, if I did nothing but scream in your face, could you do a forward roll?  Right now? 

How about old age?  Aha!  I've just given you the car keys to Aikido.  Use it well, and for peaceful purposes dude.


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## MadMartigan (Oct 31, 2022)

I can only speak to what I've seen, and yes the 20-30s crowd can be seen filling out BJJ, MT, and MMA clubs, with far fewer joining the traditional white pajama martial arts crowd. I think we like to tell ourselves that they're home with their families and working their careers... and that's partially true. The problem for Karate (and my art TKD) is that the few left in that age bracket with the motivation to get out and train are mostly heading elsewhere. I have several thoughts on why this is. 

In North America, MMA dominates the combat sport consciousness. You have an entire generation who grew up Watching the UFC instead of Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris. They've been told their whole lives that TMA don't work, and that you need to train only these 3 arts to be the most effective. Just listen to the commentary at the fights and it's almost always there in some fashion. 

Another reason I think goes to culture. Yes, many adult males (for the sake of illustration) are career and family focused in their 20s and 30s. Those are the people who are not training anywhere for the most part. The ones left tend to be more competitive focused. They are more likely to seek out the arts focused around competition (while aligning with their belief on which ones work).

Lastly (to keep from writing a book), there's a vicious 'catch 22' that the TMAs did to themselves. By so successfully marketing to children, an association was formed in many minds that children are who they are for. Over the past 20 years I have watched the TMA classes that used to be full of young adults lose nearly all of them to BJJ etc. Now, when that rare adult who would want to take a TMA up goes looking, they see classes full of kids and teens. Then they see everyone else their age across the street training MMA or MT. It's easy math to guess which club they're more likely to try at that point. 

I say all this as one of the stalwart few still trying to keep the TMAs going for adults. It's just a bit more challenging now than it was 20 years ago unfortunately.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 31, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Ok thanks.
> 
> There's no BS in that video.  Whatever BS you think 🤔 is there is probably something else.
> 
> ...


Waving his arm and a student jogging at him falls down, or a small twitch of a staff sends multiple people falling over but ok…


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## GojuTommy (Oct 31, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Ok thanks.
> 
> There's no BS in that video.  Whatever BS you think 🤔 is there is probably something else.
> 
> ...


Waving his arm and a student jogging at him falls down, or a small twitch of a staf


MadMartigan said:


> I can only speak to what I've seen, and yes the 20-30s crowd can be seen filling out BJJ, MT, and MMA clubs, with far fewer joining the traditional white pajama martial arts crowd. I think we like to tell ourselves that they're home with their families and working their careers... and that's partially true. The problem for Karate (and my art TKD) is that the few left in that age bracket with the motivation to get out and train are mostly heading elsewhere. I have several thoughts on why this is.
> 
> In North America, MMA dominates the combat sport consciousness. You have an entire generation who grew up Watching the UFC instead of Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris. They've been told their whole lives that TMA don't work, and that you need to train only these 3 arts to be the most effective. Just listen to the commentary at the fights and it's almost always there in some fashion.
> 
> ...


i think the ‘busy with family or career’ in general is BS people of all ages with family, or really trying to plug their careers still have hobbies, sometimes it’s gaming, sometimes is basketball, sometimes it’s painting.
This idea that 20 and 30 years olds aren’t in MA of any sort doesn’t sit right with me. Sure there might be a few months or a year after a kid is born people might have to largely drop out of their hobbies, but the idea that large numbers of people are just not doing things because they have no spare time seems unlikely.

During a 4yr enlistment where I spent about 30months or more away from homeport and had to spend weekends on the ship at least once a month even while in homeport, and I still found time to train on my own, and still found time to go play airsoft.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Waving his arm and a student jogging at him falls down, or a small twitch of a staff sends multiple people falling over but ok…


I think you are missing the point of those demos and should watch them more closely.

He is not displaying no-touch knockdowns, he is displaying the principles of Aikido which are basic physics, typical jujutsu throws, and ukemi above all.  The first student who runs at him gets basically told to fall, that's normal.  And that was a nice roll too.  Give it up for Aikidoka.

The part where he has everyone hold onto the staff in particular was a great example of the physics behind Aikido, Judo, etc.  If I had you grab a stick and I drop it to the floor fast with weight, you're going flying dude.

If you watch the whole thing I think it's a great showcase of his actual skill which was significant for his age.  I haven't seen much video of him sword training either, so thanks for that.

But I'm not aware of anything in Aikido that claims to be a no touch Qi blast.  That's just not in the curriculum afaik.


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## Barry Drennan (Oct 31, 2022)

Dboxobi said:


> Karate classes Ive attended, I tend to see mostly folks in their mid 40s upwards all the way to 70s  (plus kids)      but very few young adults.     Is Karate more friendly for n aging body?


Pups are attracted to the glitter of MMA.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Waving his arm and a student jogging at him falls down, or a small twitch of a staf.


See my last, because I think it's just an ukemi demo (not a throwing demo), but this is what actual no touch Qi blast BS looks like.

The big difference here?  No Ukemi!! (Cept for that one dude who gets thrown from 20 feet away, that was impressive).

These are all untrained idiots falling over for master.  Aikido is nothing like this, not to mention, plenty of Aikidoka cross train in Judo etc and can throw you just fine.  But plenty of Aikidoka who don't can't also throw and sweep just fine too.






So yeah I don't know if any legit Aikido schools out there do this sort of thing, I'd be surprised if it was even allowed (because any school that teaches no Qi crap is typically laughed at by legit lineages).


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## mograph (Oct 31, 2022)

We need to consider the hobbies that are in vogue. Karate was a big deal when I was growing up, but now, you're likely to see only kids practising as one of those "let's keep the little buggers busy" activities. Hey, building model kits was mainstream (or so we thought) in the sixties, and now the vast majority of builders are middle-aged or old guys.

Here's a graph describing hobbies and activities in the US: cooking and baking is #1.








						Hobbies & activities in the United States 2022 | Statista
					

The most popular hobby/activity in the United States is cooking and baking, with 38 percent of respondents stating it's among their personal hobbies and activities.




					www.statista.com
				




"Sports and fitness" is near the bottom, and one doesn't have to think too hard to imagine that martial arts is probably well behind working out, basketball, softball, and other mainstream sports.

Karate just isn't _popular_ any more, and that has nothing to do with the art. The older folks are probably acting on a desire to get involved when they were younger.


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## mograph (Oct 31, 2022)

The no-touch stuff is either misrepresented or misunderstood.

Misrepresented: (I think this is obvious) the teacher thinks that he can defeat uncooperative opponents with no-touch. At some point, he started to believe that everyone responds to him the way his students do, even uncooperative martial artists. It's distressing, but not surprising, how someone (the teacher) could become so delusional. There are plenty of people out there who believe their own press.

Misunderstood: it's actually the teacher demonstrating how sensitive to his movements his students are. He's not demonstrating _his_ defensive skill, he's demonstrating their "_listening"_ skill, or sensitivity to _observations_. There's no magic implied here, and if the word Qi is used, it's used as a metaphor. He might not make all this clear to an audience, because he thinks it's obvious, and he doesn't want to embarrass the audience by suggesting that they don't see something obvious. Or he did make it clear, but it was edited out of the video. We should not always assume that the instructor is demonstrating _his_ skill.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 31, 2022)

mograph said:


> Karate just isn't _popular_ any more, and that has nothing to do with the art. The older folks are probably acting on a desire to get involved when they were younger.


hmm.  On the other hand _Cobra Kai_ has been keeping Netflix alive for years.  _Kickin It _was one of the Disney Channel's most popular series of the last ten years.

And the Broadway version of the original Karate Kid is green lit and incoming.

I'll never see the Broadway version of_ 36th Chamber of Shaolin_, just to compare.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> See my last, because I think it's just an ukemi demo (not a throwing demo), but this is what actual no touch Qi blast BS looks like.
> 
> The big difference here?  No Ukemi!! (Cept for that one dude who gets thrown from 20 feet away, that was impressive).
> 
> ...


I don't know about Aikido but I know about joint locks. Resisting a joint lock is usuallthe worst thing you can do.  Flowing with a joint lock buys enough time to counter.  What people see as fake throws, I have always thought as a flow through so the wrist is protected.  The problem however seems that the flow is too eager and it occurs even if the joint lock isn't felt.  When I train joint locks I need my partner to let me know when they can tell that the lock is on the right path to successful application. In other words don't roll unless you can fill it being set.  I could be wrong but that's how I generally see it. My MMA sparring partner does the same thing with me he flows with it before I can set the lock.


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## mograph (Oct 31, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> hmm.  On the other hand _Cobra Kai_ has been keeping Netflix alive for years.  _Kickin It _was one of the Disney Channel's most popular series of the last ten years.
> 
> And the Broadway version of the original Karate Kid is green lit and incoming.
> 
> I'll never see the Broadway version of_ 36th Chamber of Shaolin_, just to compare.


Well, there's a difference between karate's being popular and the nostalgia for a specific film franchise, or preference for one kid's TV show.  Remember when TV detectives would practice karate in their spare time? It was seen in multiple shows, not just those two.

My point is that it's just not mainstream, even if it's more palatable than Shaolin (to western audiences) because it _was_ mainstream: it has the residue of mainstream without being mainstream any more. They'll watch a show about it, but they won't go out and put on a gi.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 31, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> See my last, because I think it's just an ukemi demo (not a throwing demo), but this is what actual no touch Qi blast BS looks like.
> 
> The big difference here?  No Ukemi!! (Cept for that one dude who gets thrown from 20 feet away, that was impressive).
> 
> ...


I mean it’s the same thing except he’s not using a student in this challenge


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I mean it’s the same thing except he’s not using a student in this challenge


It's different because in the Aikido film, Ueshiba and his students are just showing a collection of what's in Aikido for the camera: breakfalls, rolls, throws, staff, sword, *all from legit Japanese training*  His experience was pretty vast, he distilled decades into one single art that combined his skill at warfare with his desire for peace.  But at the end he was powerful, and his students pretty graceful at falling. * Ukemi is powerful. * Whatever else came out of Aikido is a personal journey (have you ever watched The Walking Dead?).

The Kiai Master is a straight out delusion master because he actually threw out a $5k dollar wager for challengers.

Ueshiba would never have fallen for that sort of dumb ego trip or challenge.

He would have said *"let's both strike this log with a wooden sword and see who quits first, and be friends after.  go". * 

My man.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 31, 2022)

mograph said:


> We need to consider the hobbies that are in vogue. Karate was a big deal when I was growing up, but now, you're likely to see only kids practising as one of those "let's keep the little buggers busy" activities. Hey, building model kits was mainstream (or so we thought) in the sixties, and now the vast majority of builders are middle-aged or old guys.
> 
> Here's a graph describing hobbies and activities in the US: cooking and baking is #1.
> 
> ...


Oh lord. Pardon me, but you're full of it. I mean really full of it. The kids pay the bills. The adults train karatedo. And it is a way of life.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 31, 2022)

If you want to know why old people train karate, ask us. Man this is a lot of horse puckey.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 31, 2022)

mograph said:


> Well, there's a difference between karate's being popular and the nostalgia for a specific film franchise, or preference for one kid's TV show.  Remember when TV detectives would practice karate in their spare time? It was seen in multiple shows, not just those two.
> 
> My point is that it's just not mainstream, even if it's more palatable than Shaolin (to western audiences) because it _was_ mainstream: it has the residue of mainstream without being mainstream any more. They'll watch a show about it, but they won't go out and put on a gi.


I mean I’ve watched a lot of movies and tv shows from the 50s-80s I don’t remember a single detective show where the protagonist practiced karate. Most I recall trained judo or jujitsu (or at least that’s the name they gave for what the were supposedly doing.)
S5 of cobra kai netted 1.7 billion minute views on its premiere. It beat out the new Thor’s streaming debut.








						Nielsen Streaming Top 10: ‘Cobra Kai’ Debuts at No. 1, ‘Rings of Power’ Still Edges Out ‘House of the Dragon’
					

“Cobra Kai” had an explosive debut on Nielsen’s weekly streaming rankings, racking up 1.7 billion minutes viewed between its Netflix premiere on Sept. 9 and the end of the viewing…



					variety.com
				




This show isn’t just some niche nostalgia flash in the pan. The show has been popular among pretty much all age groups.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 31, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's different because in the Aikido film, Ueshiba and his students are just showing a collection of what's in Aikido for the camera: breakfalls, rolls, throws, staff, sword, *all from legit Japanese training*  His experience was pretty vast, he distilled decades into one single art that combined his skill at warfare with his desire for peace.  But at the end he was powerful, and his students pretty graceful at falling. * Ukemi is powerful. * Whatever else came out of Aikido is a personal journey (have you ever watched The Walking Dead?).
> 
> The Kiai Master is a straight out delusion master because he actually threw out a $5k dollar wager for challengers.
> 
> ...


…uh huh. Great excuse, but if he’s showing how he can knock people over without touching them, because it’s in aikido that means aikido is the origin of no touch martial arts.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> …uh huh. Great excuse, but if he’s showing how he can knock people over without touching them, because it’s in aikido that means aikido is the origin of no touch martial arts.


I don't think he's showing he can knock out over people without touching them.  It's a demo of his students ukemi.

Do you know any ukemi?

Aikido is the origin of no touch martial arts?  How do?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2022)

This is what happens when you can't flow with a wrist lock or when you fight directly against it..  In kung fu , flowing with the lock would require footwork.  In BJJ, your footwork is gone so all you are left with is fighting it directly.





So Aikido is trash? I personally don't think so.  I think it suffers the same issue that Kung Fu has.  People stop training Aikido through sparring.  Just something to think about.  Are there some Trash Aikido Practitioners out there?  Of course.  When you see one just ignore them and keep looking for someone who knows how to actually apply it or at the minimum someone who knows enough about the technique that they can coach you on how to apply it.


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