# Grandmother Hit With Taser



## MJS (Jun 30, 2010)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38009218/ns/us_news/

So...she's laying in bed, hooked up to oxygen, makes a comment that she wants to end her life, the police are called, she pulls a knife, and gets hit with the taser.

As always, not much to go on, and I always take articles like this with a grain of salt, but I'm still interested in hearing everyones thoughts.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 30, 2010)

I hope she wins her lawsuit.


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## chaos1551 (Jun 30, 2010)

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/28330.htm

This link puts the story in a different light.  I don't understand the discrepancy with the knife.  This whole story just stinks to high hell.  My guess is this is the story of the one out of a thousand cops that make the rest look bad.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 30, 2010)

MJS said:


> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38009218/ns/us_news/
> 
> So...she's laying in bed, hooked up to oxygen, makes a comment that she wants to end her life, the police are called, she pulls a knife, and gets hit with the taser.
> 
> As always, not much to go on, and I always take articles like this with a grain of salt, but I'm still interested in hearing everyones thoughts.


Police assisted scuicides are quite common. Here in Spokane, a woman called the police to stop her son's scuicide attempt. He was warning them away with broken glass; so, they shot him. When you confront a police officer with a deadly weapon, these things tend to happen. I don't blame the police, but a tazer would have been safer for everyone.
Sean


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## Thesemindz (Jun 30, 2010)

That's what happens when you mess with the cops. I don't recommend it.

They're a pretty violent street gang.


-Rob


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 30, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I hope she wins her lawsuit.


I am thinking she won't, but maybe.
sean


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## MJS (Jun 30, 2010)

The 2nd link makes this story sound much worse.  Was this woman trying to do suicide by cop?  Dont know, but its possible.  Pull a knife on the cops, in hopes that the officer(s) that you're dealing with are not seasoned, and could possibly be quicker to resort to deadly force, rather than less lethal options.  

IMO, its another case of the cops being damned if they do, damned if they dont.  Of course the taser sounds bad.  It isn't.  The paper would've made as much of a stink if they physically grabbed her and wrestled the blade away or if they whacked her with the baton, used OC or shot her.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 30, 2010)

Hooked up to O2?

I hope they understand oxygen and an electric spark are not a wise combination.

Plus, the Taser IS NOT A NON-LETHAL WEAPON. It's a 'less lethal' one. So to use the Taser they need to justify that. And at her age, it's mighty hard to justify that.

Where I work I'm part of a team that, uh, is called 'Dr. Strong'. We go in to where patients that are unrully and calm them down, with muscle if need be. BUT TO USE A TASER? Heck no! We use our hands to hold them, no joint locks, no bear hugs, no throwing them, no nothing like that.

So, what they did was not right and way out of line.

Deaf


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## MJS (Jun 30, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Hooked up to O2?
> 
> I hope they understand oxygen and an electric spark are not a wise combination.


 
Ya know, thats a good point.  I didn't even think about that.



> Plus, the Taser IS NOT A NON-LETHAL WEAPON. It's a 'less lethal' one. So to use the Taser they need to justify that. And at her age, it's mighty hard to justify that.


 
Who said that?  In my post, I mentioned that it was a less lethal weapon.  Of course, I do have to wonder how many legit cases there are, in which the taser was definately the cause of death, and nothing else, meaning no pre-existing medical issues, not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, etc.

As for the age...I agree, it does sound a bit crazy, given her age, but if the use of force policy for this dept. dictates that its ok to use the taser, then 86 or 36, I suppose they'd be in the clear.  



> Where I work I'm part of a team that, uh, is called 'Dr. Strong'. We go in to where patients that are unrully and calm them down, with muscle if need be. BUT TO USE A TASER? Heck no! We use our hands to hold them, no joint locks, no bear hugs, no throwing them, no nothing like that.


 
I'm assuming you work in a hospital or mental institution?  So basically, all you and the rest of the team are doing it holding the person down?  I'm assuming until they physically exhaust themselves and then restrain, etc., as necessary?



> So, what they did was not right and way out of line.
> 
> Deaf


 
I'd be interested in hearing the use of force policy for this PD, as I suggested above.  Its easy for us to all armchair QB this, but depending on the policy, providing they didnt violate anything, then they might be in the clear.


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## Disco (Jun 30, 2010)

As with most stories, I'm sure there is more to it than what we've been privy to, but lets just take it on face value. First, the police were called, secondly they were physically challenged by someone brandishing a knife. Regardless if she was an 86 yr old grandma, if the officer attempted to physically remove the knife, there's a high probability that he would have been cut (how sever ?), in her presented state of mind. In a situation like this, no matter what the police do/attempt, they will be vilified. That's just the nature of the general public when offered these types of stories. 

Now lets presume for a moment that the sweet old granny actual does lash out at the officer and connects with neck and the artery is severed. Now we have a really nasty byline for some reported, but what happens to granny.......nothing. She would have been deemed mentally incompetent and would be in a hospital, as for the officer, well most likely he doesn't go home to the wife and kids. It's very easy for folks to sit back and reflect on an incident, lawyers and judges also, but the officer has to make a split second decision that follows him for his whole life. He doesn't have the luxury to mull over possible options, if any in a situation, but he's expected/tasked by the public to make these decisions, if he doesn't then he's under investigation by his department and that can/could lead to being demoted/fired or even indicted, depending upon the situation. 

Bottom line to this particular story is granny's apparently fine, no worse for the wear and the cops will just have to bear another flogging at the hands of the media.


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## geezer (Jul 1, 2010)

Disco said:


> As with most stories, I'm sure there is more to it than what we've been privy to...
> 
> Bottom line to this particular story is granny's apparently fine, no worse for the wear and the cops will just have to bear another flogging at the hands of the media.



The quote above pretty much encapsulates my response. 

Other than that, I might note that we've had a few tragic encounters between psychologically disturbed individuals and local police in my area in the last few years. One well publicized case involved a situation in which parents called the police because they were unable to control their disturbed teenage-son who was brandishing a knife. They thought that they were calling professionals who could safely restrain their son so he could get psychiatric treatment. When the police arrived, they responded to a perceived deadly threat _and shot the young man dead._ 

Now considering the possibility of something like that happening, I'D RATHER SEE THEM USE A TASER and then have the luxury of being able to debate the issue later.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 1, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Hooked up to O2?
> 
> I hope they understand oxygen and an electric spark are not a wise combination.
> 
> ...


What the police do is not comparable to "Dr. Strong". There are too many variables on the street to treat every call with kid gloves.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 1, 2010)

Disco said:


> As with most stories, I'm sure there is more to it than what we've been privy to, but lets just take it on face value. First, the police were called, secondly they were physically challenged by someone brandishing a knife. Regardless if she was an 86 yr old grandma, if the officer attempted to physically remove the knife, there's a high probability that he would have been cut (how sever ?), in her presented state of mind. In a situation like this, no matter what the police do/attempt, they will be vilified. That's just the nature of the general public when offered these types of stories.
> 
> Now lets presume for a moment that the sweet old granny actual does lash out at the officer and connects with neck and the artery is severed. Now we have a really nasty byline for some reported, but what happens to granny.......nothing. She would have been deemed mentally incompetent and would be in a hospital, as for the officer, well most likely he doesn't go home to the wife and kids. It's very easy for folks to sit back and reflect on an incident, lawyers and judges also, but the officer has to make a split second decision that follows him for his whole life. He doesn't have the luxury to mull over possible options, if any in a situation, but he's expected/tasked by the public to make these decisions, if he doesn't then he's under investigation by his department and that can/could lead to being demoted/fired or even indicted, depending upon the situation.
> 
> Bottom line to this particular story is granny's apparently fine, no worse for the wear and the cops will just have to bear another flogging at the hands of the media.


I can see the headline now...*Bungling Cop Killed By Elderly Woman. *
*S*ean


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## Tez3 (Jul 1, 2010)

I'm really sorry but I've a forces sense of humour...sick... and I howled with laughter at the thought of this old lady threatening the police officer and then being tasered! I told everyone and work and yep we all thought it was really funny. Sickos that we are. 
(You don't want to know the comments made!)

Oh well at least I'm honest!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Hooked up to O2?
> 
> I hope they understand oxygen and an electric spark are not a wise combination.
> 
> ...


 
'Non-lethal versus Less-Lethal' is merely a semantical difference.

As to the oxygen issue, oxygen is not flammable, it is an oxidizer that merely promotes combustion in a more rapid fashion, meaning that a Taser won't set oxygen on fire.

As for the 'Dr. Strong' bit do your patients usually have knives?

Not saying I agree with the use of the Taser, there's not enough information, but the reality is that, having been subjected to many different uses of force in my career, the response to Taser use is completely overblown, as of all the levels of force i've been exposed to it, it is unpleasant, but has had the LOWEST level of long term risk of injury of all of them, including empty hand techniques.



I do part time security at a hospital, in addition to my full time employment as a police officer, so i've actually experienced both ends of this. One of our most common calls is to assist staff on the Psych ward. The difference is that those folks have all been relieved of their weapons BEFORE entering the ward, and there are 6 to 8 large men to help put one person in restraints in a controlled environment, and they also have the benefit of large doses of HALDOL. The two issues are not comparable, and again I can say that having done BOTH!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> What the police do is not comparable to "Dr. Strong". There are too many variables on the street to treat every call with kid gloves.
> Sean


 
Going to bet if one of their patients had a knife, they'd barricade the door and call the police.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2010)

From my perspective, I train my officers, solely because of the bad publicity, to be careful the situations they apply the Taser in, NOT because of any inherent risks, because having been exposed to the Taser and other types of force, numerous times, I know that Taser is among the SAFEST uses of force.......but merely because of the bad publicity the public has received about Tasers, and the knee jerk irrational reaction to it's use.

So, the result is that officers are more likely to use other, higher risk uses of force, in lieu of Tasers, in situations where Taser would be controversial, resulting in greater injuries to suspects........but that's just the price of doing business, and suspects paying the price for the Taser having such bad PR..........with me I use OC Spray far more than Taser.........I save the Taser for suspects who meet a certain higher end criteria.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 2, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> As to the oxygen issue, oxygen is not flammable, it is an oxidizer that merely promotes combustion in a more rapid fashion, meaning that a Taser won't set oxygen on fire.



*"Police, fire report: Static spark near oxygen tank ignites fire"*


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 2, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> As to the oxygen issue, oxygen is not flammable, it is an oxidizer that merely promotes combustion in a more rapid fashion, meaning that a Taser won't set oxygen on fire.


 
But sgt, the spark can set the cotton cloths or hair affire and the O2 will then excellerate any burning. Remember Apallo 1? The capsule was full of O2 and a spark ingited the wiring. Flash fire.



sgtmac_46 said:


> As for the 'Dr. Strong' bit do your patients usually have knives?


 
They can and we do have a policy on self defense as well as calling the hospital PD (we have our own PD, fully state certified.)




MJS said:


> I'm assuming you work in a hospital or mental institution? So basically, all you and the rest of the team are doing it holding the person down? I'm assuming until they physically exhaust themselves and then restrain, etc., as necessary?


 
MJS,

I program computers in a very big hospital. Over 3000 employees.

Yes our policy is for our 'killer bees' (we have a little bee sticker on our ID to denote we are on the 'Dr. Strong' team) to hold the patient and not use any joint locks. BUT, part of the policy deals with force and lethal force if the patient gets a weapon and we have no choice but to defend ourselves.

The doctors and nurses can use restrains or drugs if need be, but us non-clinical staff are there just to restrain the patient if ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY. The Dr. will tell us to restrain the patient, we don't just walk in and unilaterally grab the patient!

That is what shocks (no pun intended) me so much. I mean they were cops. I presume stronger than the old lady on oxygen! 

Totally unnecessary in my opinion.

Deaf


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## MJS (Jul 2, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> But sgt, the spark can set the cotton cloths or hair affire and the O2 will then excellerate any burning. Remember Apallo 1? The capsule was full of O2 and a spark ingited the wiring. Flash fire.


 
I'm not an expert on the Taser, so hopefully Sgt or someone else with knowledge of them will chime in, but I've never heard of anyone catching on fire after being hit with a taser.  Are there cases of this?





> They can and we do have a policy on self defense as well as calling the hospital PD (we have our own PD, fully state certified.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Many of my training partners, both past and present, either have been or currently are working in some sort of LE field.  A long time friend currently works in a mental institution, 2 worked in a youth facility, one of my Arnis insts. is a Capt in the Dept of Corrections, I worked for the DOC for a period of time.  Each place has their own policies/procedures on how to handle a situation.  IMO, I dont think its fair to judge this PD, due to the fact that AFAIK, nobody here knows the use of force policy.  Therefore, while it seems that it was excessive, dangerous, whatever, it may not be.  Even in the DOC, depending on the level of force the inmate is using, the CO has a protocol to follow.  

Not long ago, in the dept that I dispatch for, there was a very large, out of control man, that the officers had to deal with.  Of course, this article goes into the paper, and people were posting comments, asking why the officers dont carry tranqualizer guns, so they could shoot the suspect, much like they'd do to an animal.  Ummm...yeah, lets just say I was speechless when I read that.  

So, in a nutshell, there is a difference between dealing with a patient in the hospital, vs. someone that the PD will have to deal with.


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## Archangel M (Jul 2, 2010)

Yeah, the Taser does have a flammability ignition risk. We can't carry oil based OC spray because of flammability in conjunction w/Taser application.

I wouldn't recommend using a Taser near a lot of O2. Of course an O2 tent is different from a nasal cannula where there isn't a cloud of pure O2 floating around. But better safe than sorry.


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## MJS (Jul 2, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Yeah, the Taser does have a flammability ignition risk. We can't carry oil based OC spray because of flammability in conjunction w/Taser application.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend using a Taser near a lot of O2. Of course an O2 tent is different from a nasal cannula where there isn't a cloud of pure O2 floating around. But better safe than sorry.


 
Assuming there was no O2 tank in the area, or any other flammable source, is there still a risk of clothing catching on fire, under normal circumstances?


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## Archangel M (Jul 2, 2010)

MJS said:


> Assuming there was no O2 tank in the area, or any other flammable source, is there still a risk of clothing catching on fire, under normal circumstances?



No. Not unless a spark of static from touching a doorknob would normally cause you to burst into flames.


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 2, 2010)

Interesting! Google is your friend. Here are some facts and polices on Tasers:


http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/pdffiles/psdb09-02.pdf

Do not use the taser on the following groups of people:
- Anyone with a dysfunctional heart
- Anyone connected to oxygen tanks or other life support systems
- Pregnant women
- Small children​ 

http://shr.elpasoco.com/NR/rdonlyres/802BBC12-2D46-45F1-B19E-ECA9CFBC511E/0/507POLICY.pdf

THE TASER WILL NOT BE USED: 
1. When any subject who is saturated with, or in the presence of, any gasses or flammable liquids, to include OC 
2. In areas where compressed oxygen is present, such as Medical Facilities and Emergency Rooms 
3. Houses where ether or methamphetamine labs are suspected 
4. Any known or obviously pregnant female 

http://www.pueblo.us/documents/Police/Policies/CHAPTER9.pdf

Officers shall not use the ERD/TASER in the following situations:
1. When a subject is passively resisting.
2. When a subject is handcuffed, unless his/her behavior rises to the level of active
aggression.
3. When a subject is on a slanted roof or near the edge of a building, to minimize
the possibility of the subject falling.
4. When a subject is in a swimming pool or in deep body of water, to minimize the
chance of drowning.
5. When a subject is operating a moving vehicle.
6. Near flammable gases or liquids, including oxygen cylinders used as part of a
breathing apparatus or system.
7. In drug houses where ether or other flammable liquids are suspected.
8. No officer shall playfully, maliciously or intentionally misuse or display an ERD/TASER.​​​


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> *"Police, fire report: Static spark near oxygen tank ignites fire"*


 
I repeat.......'OXYGEN IS AN OXIDIZER......IT DOES NOT IGNITE!'.....a little basic chemistry.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> But sgt, the spark can set the cotton cloths or hair affire and the O2 will then excellerate any burning. Remember Apallo 1? The capsule was full of O2 and a spark ingited the wiring. Flash fire.


 What about 'Oxygen is an oxidizer, it does not burn' was not clear? 





Deaf Smith said:


> They can and we do have a policy on self defense as well as calling the hospital PD (we have our own PD, fully state certified.)


 I know how it works, I work part time at such a hospital PD.







Deaf Smith said:


> That is what shocks (no pun intended) me so much. I mean they were cops. I presume stronger than the old lady on oxygen!





Deaf Smith said:


> Totally unnecessary in my opinion.
> 
> Deaf


 I reiterate the question I originally posted......how many of your 'Doctor Strong' restraints were done on a subject armed with a knife?  Can I assume 'ZERO'?


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Interesting! Google is your friend. Here are some facts and polices on Tasers:


 
Those are not 'facts' those are sample policies recommended by one interest group or another......for example, this one....



Deaf Smith said:


> http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/pdffiles/psdb09-02.pdf
> 
> Do not use the taser on the following groups of people:
> - Anyone with a dysfunctional heart
> ...


 Is a sample policy recommendation from Great Britain.........as for the asinine 'anyone with a dysfunctional heart' it's entirely pointless and unworkable.​ 


Deaf Smith said:


> http://shr.elpasoco.com/NR/rdonlyres/802BBC12-2D46-45F1-B19E-ECA9CFBC511E/0/507POLICY.pdf
> 
> THE TASER WILL NOT BE USED:
> 1. When any subject who is saturated with, or in the presence of, any gasses or flammable liquids, to include OC
> ...


 Most of those have to do with flammable chemicals.  The oxygen issue is rather silly due to the very low likelihood of a taser igniting some fabric.........and since in the discussed Taser deployment there WAS not fire, entirely irrelavent to the discussion or your point.​


Deaf Smith said:


> http://www.pueblo.us/documents/Police/Policies/CHAPTER9.pdf​
> Officers shall not use the ERD/TASER in the following situations:
> 1. When a subject is passively resisting.
> 2. When a subject is handcuffed, unless his/her behavior rises to the level of active
> ...


 
Again, the only relavent policy is the oxygen issue, which is entirely IRRELAVENT, as there was no fire.

The real issue that you had was that an elderly woman was Tasered, not that there was an oxygen tank nearby, so lets not mix issues.  There was no fire as a result, so that issue is moot and a red-herring.

As to the issue of Tasering an elderly woman armed with a knife, i reiterate that you made the point that you have a different point of view as part of a 'Doctor Strong' program.........but I reiterate, do you have any training and experience with subjects armed with a knife in that environment?  If not, then your experience with that program is not applicable to this issue.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2010)

To show that i'm not entirely set in my ways, I acknowledge a minor interesting point in this discussion, that of the issue of O2..........as I have access to BOTH a Taser and O2, i'll test the issue to determine if we can use a Taser in combination with O2 to cause fabric to catch fire.

My strong suspicion is that we will not be able to do so..........the reason being that the heat produced by a Taser is in the resistance stage of the current entering the body, and that is minimal.

Fabric does not present enough resistance to the Taser to build up enough heat to ignite. Gasoline, with it's gasses and very low flashpoint, is ignitable.

But I strongly suspect that even in an oxygen rich enviroment, fabric will not ignite from a Taser current.

We'll see, and i'll post a video of my results on youtube in the next couple of weeks.


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2010)

I suppose making the little old lady a cup of tea and offering to talk things over with her wasn't an option here?  Oh no, it turned into a Hollywood style farce, police called, her getting a knife out, the police getting their guns, tazers whatever, talk about overkill and you wonder why we found it so funny. A lot to be said about the local bobby popping in ( if the police *have* to to be called, more a case for a doctor actually) and telling her it's alright and putting the kettle on.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I suppose making the little old lady a cup of tea and offering to talk things over with her wasn't an option here? Oh no, it turned into a Hollywood style farce, police called, her getting a knife out, the police getting their guns, tazers whatever, talk about overkill and you wonder why we found it so funny. A lot to be said about the local bobby popping in ( if the police *have* to to be called, more a case for a doctor actually) and telling her it's alright and putting the kettle on.


 
I agree with you there......it was more of a case where they should have called a doctor.

The reality is that those folks won't show up while someone is armed with a knife.


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I agree with you there......it was more of a case where they should have called a doctor.
> 
> The reality is that those folks won't show up while someone is armed with a knife.


 
Yes but I bet she wouldn't have got the knife out if a doctor or medics had shown up. Mishandling all the way. You don't call the police if your 87 year old mother who is sick says she wants to end her life, she's entitled to say that if she wishes, she's entitled to kill herself if she wishes, there is no reason to call the police out and have her taken away (where were they going to take her btw?) totally ridiculous. If she had a knife why was anyone approaching her instead they should have talked to her, as I said made her a cuppa (you may laugh at the Brit custom of putting the kettle on but you have no idea how useful it is in many situations when you need things to calm down.) it was handled by everyone so badly it is indeed laughable. People going on about slashed arteries, being 'on the street'  and goodness what, really, it's an old lady who needed some understanding ( ever been so ill and incapacitated you wanted to die?) and gentle handling. She had a knife with her I bet to end her own life and she felt so threatened and unsafe that she was trying to use it to defend herself, everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves, where's commonsense and humanity gone?


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## MJS (Jul 3, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Interesting! Google is your friend. Here are some facts and polices on Tasers:
> 
> 
> http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/pdffiles/psdb09-02.pdf
> ...


 
Thanks for the links.  I'll just address 2 things. 

1) Regarding the first link...how can an officer determine, just from looking at someone, whether or not they have a pre-existing heart condition?  That'd be like me looking at someone and trying to figure out if they're a pro boxer or a BJJ Black Belt.  

2) I'm assuming those links that you posted are stats from those PDs?  I would still like to know what the exact policies are for the PD in question.   Again, while the use of the Taser in this case, may've been over board, until we know the exact policy on when they can/can't use it, we can all armchair QB at best.


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## MJS (Jul 3, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Those are not 'facts' those are sample policies recommended by one interest group or another......for example, this one....
> 
> Is a sample policy recommendation from Great Britain.........as for the asinine 'anyone with a dysfunctional heart' it's entirely pointless and unworkable.[/font][/left]
> 
> ...


 
And the last part of your post is just the point I was trying to make.  We're talking about 2 different situations here....use of force in a hospital vs use of force in LE capacity.  I can't sum it up better than what you said.


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## MJS (Jul 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Yes but I bet she wouldn't have got the knife out if a doctor or medics had shown up. Mishandling all the way. You don't call the police if your 87 year old mother who is sick says she wants to end her life, she's entitled to say that if she wishes, she's entitled to kill herself if she wishes, there is no reason to call the police out and have her taken away (where were they going to take her btw?) totally ridiculous. If she had a knife why was anyone approaching her instead they should have talked to her, as I said made her a cuppa (you may laugh at the Brit custom of putting the kettle on but you have no idea how useful it is in many situations when you need things to calm down.) it was handled by everyone so badly it is indeed laughable. People going on about slashed arteries, being 'on the street' and goodness what, really, it's an old lady who needed some understanding ( ever been so ill and incapacitated you wanted to die?) and gentle handling. She had a knife with her I bet to end her own life and she felt so threatened and unsafe that she was trying to use it to defend herself, everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves, where's commonsense and humanity gone?


 
Hmm...and this is very similar to the comments that I was reading regarding that large, out of control man that my PD had to deal with.  People were asking why the cops were sent when the guy needed to go to the hospital.  See, herein lies the difference...the EMTs, Medics, Firefighters, are not going to enter an unsafe area.  That is the job of the PD, nobody else.  Quite a while back, there was an incident in the city where I work.  Guy was talking about suicide, and stated that he had had a gun.  The ambulance got there first.  Instead of staging in the area until PD got there, like we told them, this yahoo goes in.  What happened?  As soon as the guy saw the guy from the ambulance, he blew his own head off!  

Not saying that if the cop walked in, the guy wouldn't have done the same damn thing.  Difference is, the cops a) have guns, so God forbid this guy pointed the gun at the cop, at least he would've had a line of defense, b) its a dangerous scene, so the cops are the ones to deal with it first, no matter whats going on, c) the cops are more capable of negotiating with someone.  

So yeah, one would think that if someone says they want to end their life, well, every PD that I know of, in my area, goes to those calls.  Again, policy will vary from place to place.  Where would they have taken here?  Nowhere.  They would have made sure the scene was safe for the medics, firefighters, etc.  Interestingly enough, many times, where I work, we'll just send an ambulance or the FD, and many times, the patient becomes combative, so they request PD.  

I find it funny that some people look at this lady and think because of her age, even though she had a knife, she was no threat.  People let age fool them. LOL.  Remember that clip that was posted on here, about that old guy and that young kid who got into an argument on the bus?  The young punk though he was all big and bad and what happened?  The "Old Man" kicked his ***! LMFAO!!!  Sent that kid back to his seat with a busted up face. LOL!  Punk most likely though the old man was going to be a push over.


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2010)

MJS said:


> Hmm...and this is very similar to the comments that I was reading regarding that large, out of control man that my PD had to deal with. People were asking why the cops were sent when the guy needed to go to the hospital. See, herein lies the difference...the EMTs, Medics, Firefighters, are not going to enter an unsafe area. That is the job of the PD, nobody else. Quite a while back, there was an incident in the city where I work. Guy was talking about suicide, and stated that he had had a gun. The ambulance got there first. Instead of staging in the area until PD got there, like we told them, this yahoo goes in. What happened? As soon as the guy saw the guy from the ambulance, he blew his own head off!
> 
> Not saying that if the cop walked in, the guy wouldn't have done the same damn thing. Difference is, the cops a) have guns, so God forbid this guy pointed the gun at the cop, at least he would've had a line of defense, b) its a dangerous scene, so the cops are the ones to deal with it first, no matter whats going on, c) the cops are more capable of negotiating with someone.
> 
> ...


 

_Er, no I wasn't mistaking the age of the woman for her being less  dangerous..sigh._
 I was reading the OP and seeing that the police were called because she had said she wanted to end her life and that when they got there and tried to move her she got out the knife. I wasn't saying she wasn't dangerous but what I am saying is that *the situation was created by calling the police in the first place.*

Here, if the ambulance personnel had decided police were needed, he/she would have walked in and said. 'what's up love,' told relatives to put the kettle on ( thus getting them out of the way so he could speak to the old lady) and talked gently to the old lady, the situation would have resolved without her thinking she had to defend herself...well how would you feel about being forcibly taken away to the local mental hospital?.The article said she'd expressed the wish to die, it didn't say she was planning to end her life by violent means, it didn't say she was brandishing a knife nor that she took it out at the medics, it said she got it out when the police tried to move her, why were they trying to move her?  

It didn't say she had a knife out first, it said she got it out after the police arrived so the situation couldn't have been described as dangerous to start with could it? I'm following the timeline given and the actions from then on, it was the police arriving that caused her to bring the knife out so if she'd been talked to gently in the first place both by her son and then by the police, the situation wouldn't have escalated. I'm not saying the police are at fault initially, you don't know what the son said to the old woman to get her so upset, maybe something along the lines of 'the police are coming to take you away, you mad old woman etc etc'. 

People are reading into what info the article has given a whole different situation.


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## MJS (Jul 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> _Er, no I wasn't mistaking the age of the woman for her being less dangerous..sigh._
> I was reading the OP and seeing that the police were called because she had said she wanted to end her life and that when they got there and tried to move her she got out the knife. I wasn't saying she wasn't dangerous but what I am saying is that *the situation was created by calling the police in the first place.*




Guess I was just commenting on your...how shall I say...less than concerned tone, because the police went to a call, a suicidal call, and somehow, its not ok, because this woman was old and wanted to die?  Sounds like suicide is a normal call for the cops to go on.  Maybe not in England, but all the PDs here that I'm familiar with, they go.  And I may have missed it, but where does it say that they tried to move her?  The link that I posted, states that she pulled the knife from under her pillow if they tried to take her from her home.  

Sorry, this situation was created by the woman herself.  She had her mind set on dying, long before the cops got there.  She most likely got upset because she knew that now that the cops and EMS was on the way, her plan was not going as anticipated.



> Here, if the ambulance personnel had decided police were needed, he/she would have walked in and said. 'what's up love,' told relatives to put the kettle on ( thus getting them out of the way so he could speak to the old lady) and talked gently to the old lady, the situation would have resolved without her thinking she had to defend herself...well how would you feel about being forcibly taken away to the local mental hospital?.The article said she'd expressed the wish to die, it didn't say she was planning to end her life by violent means, it didn't say she was brandishing a knife nor that she took it out at the medics, it said she got it out when the police tried to move her, why were they trying to move her?


 
Again, you mention they were trying to move her.  Could you please post the link to the article that you're reading?  As for the rest of this...I'm assuming you read my post regarding that guy that shot himself when the ambulance worker walked in?  I didn't know that your basic EMT was trained in negotiations with suicidal parties.  Maybe there are some states that do train them, I dont know.  And how do you know the situation would have calmly been resolved?  So you're telling me that if an EMS worker, calmly talks to a suicidal person, that they're always going to talk them out of killing themselves?  





> It didn't say she had a knife out first, it said she got it out after the police arrived so the situation couldn't have been described as dangerous to start with could it?


 
And again, unless you know the policy for this PD, you have no idea whether or not its protocol to go or not.  If your opinion, it wasnt right.  That fine, as long as you realize that regardless of your opinion, the rules of that PD will supercede that.  For example...where I work, if its an accidental OD, the PD does not respond...unless its deemed after EMS arrives that it was intentional.  Now, if its clear that its intentional right from the beginning, then yes, PD always goes.  




> I'm following the timeline given and the actions from then on, it was the police arriving that caused her to bring the knife out so if she'd been talked to gently in the first place both by her son and then by the police, the situation wouldn't have escalated. I'm not saying the police are at fault initially, you don't know what the son said to the old woman to get her so upset, maybe something along the lines of 'the police are coming to take you away, you mad old woman etc etc'.


 
Now that I think about it, how do any of us know if they didn't try talking first?  Were you there? I know I wasn't.  And I doubt anyone else posting here was either.  Maybe she snapped when she saw the cop and pulled the knife then...again, I dont know.  



> People are reading into what info the article has given a whole different situation.


 
Well, as always, anytime a story like this is posted, its rare that we, the readers, will ever get the true and the whole story.  The paper will print what they want.  Amazing how many times I've dispatched officers to calls and the media, who's listening on scanners, call to find out whats going on, and somehow they...surprise surprise...trump up the call, to something that it wasnt from the beginning.  A 3 car accident has been twisted to a fatal.  WHAT?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!  

Actually, now that I think about it, I think we've had a similar discussion before.  Yup, right here.   I dont think that I've seen a thread yet, in which an article has been posted, and some sort of speculation hasnt taken place.  A good majority of the forums would close up and die, if people didn't.  Its what makes the discussion I suppose.  I mean, I said in my OP that the article was vauge.  However, while none of us know the policy for that dept., theres nothing wrong, IMHO, with debate.  Like I said, all we can do is armchair QB at best.


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## Archangel M (Jul 3, 2010)

We get sent to suicidal person calls ALL the time. If the person is deemed a threat to themselves or others they are taken to the hospital and can be held there under the states Mental Hygiene Law. It's not a crime to say you want to kill yourself, but if you or your loved one calls 911 about it then we are obligated to respond. I have no idea what Tez is talking about.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Yes but I bet she wouldn't have got the knife out if a doctor or medics had shown up. Mishandling all the way. You don't call the police if your 87 year old mother who is sick says she wants to end her life, she's entitled to say that if she wishes, she's entitled to kill herself if she wishes, there is no reason to call the police out and have her taken away (where were they going to take her btw?) totally ridiculous. If she had a knife why was anyone approaching her instead they should have talked to her, as I said made her a cuppa (you may laugh at the Brit custom of putting the kettle on but you have no idea how useful it is in many situations when you need things to calm down.) it was handled by everyone so badly it is indeed laughable. People going on about slashed arteries, being 'on the street' and goodness what, really, it's an old lady who needed some understanding ( ever been so ill and incapacitated you wanted to die?) and gentle handling. She had a knife with her I bet to end her own life and she felt so threatened and unsafe that she was trying to use it to defend herself, everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves, where's commonsense and humanity gone?


 
You may have some points.........and here's the kicker. There is nothing, in the US anyway, that prevents individuals with 'expertise' in such matters, from starting a partnership with their local law enforcement agencies.

Develop policies and procedures, and approach protocol, and be on call for such mental health issues. They can respond, with police as backup, and make contact with the suicidal person, and attempt to use 'psychology', 'conversation' and other conflict resolution skills, to de-escalate these situations.

The flip side, of course, is that they will be putting themselves in some degree of harms way, but of folks really have a passion for these things, they are VERY welcome to form such a task force in cooperation with their local Law Enforcement agencies. 

I know my agency would welcome such oncall mental health professionals with with open arms, and would gladly assist in creating a mental health crisis task force.


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## MJS (Jul 3, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> You may have some points.........and here's the kicker. There is nothing, in the US anyway, that prevents individuals with 'expertise' in such matters, from starting a partnership with their local law enforcement agencies.
> 
> Develop policies and procedures, and approach protocol, and be on call for such mental health issues. They can respond, with police as backup, and make contact with the suicidal person, and attempt to use 'psychology', 'conversation' and other conflict resolution skills, to de-escalate these situations.
> 
> ...


 
We have a mobil crisis team where I work.  They call the PD any time they're going to eval. someone who is a risk, ie: violent history, etc.  There are times, when PD is dealing with a mentally ill person and they'll request us to call the MC team, who will respond and do an eval.  usually only if the person is a client of theirs.  

Personally, I think they're pretty useless, because it seems to me that they go out to eval. the same people all the time, for the same issues.  Are they really giving these patients any help?


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## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2010)

Okay, taking it from the article it doesn't say she was suicidal as in she said she was going to kill herself, she said she wanted to die, different things if you listen to it. The two things are different as in her intent. She may have had no intention of killing herself but was wanting death to come quickly from her illness. This indicates her frame of mind. Remember she threatened the police with the knife, she didn't try to cut herself with it. You may think it's nit picking but looking at things like this indicate frame of mind and how you deal with the situation. It may not have been a suicide call at all so the actions may have been inappropriate. Expressing a wish to die when in pain and seriously ill isn't an indication of suicidal tendancies. People have assumed that she was intent on killing herself rather than waiting to die, perhaps she was suidical but what if she wasn't but was wishing that the dying process came sooner rather than later.It's also being assumed that she must be mentally ill because she had expressed a wish to die, for many, that they want to die when in pain and seriously ill is a sign of commonsense and assisted suicides are legal in a few countries which a lot of people will travel to so that they as they say can die with dignity. There was no dignity for this lady was there?

Moving her and taking her from her home aren't the same thing then?  taking her fro her home would involve moving her, no?

As I said I'm taking what I see from the same facts as you guys but you see a suicidal mentally ill woman who got violent with the police while I see a woman who could want to end her life at home with dignity but her relative panicked and involved the police in something that has left them looking bad. Put yourself in the woman's position instead of the police or medics, you are sseriously ill, dying probably as you are 87, in pain and don't want to have your life prolonged in pain, you express the wish to die and then police and whoever turns up in your home, threatening to move you so having nothing much to lose you take a knife and threaten them. Dying at home is a very dear wish of many sick and/or old people.

I didn't say what I think was the truth I'm trying to point out that from the 'facts' printed you see something that I don't and I did say I was taking what was printed for my post, *as everyone else has*.   As printed by the media, it was a disaster and could have been avoided.  
The truth? who knows. I was doing what everyone else was doing, talking from the 'facts' printed up but because it's a different view from everyone else oh gosh, I'm getting the criticism lol. But there you go, keeps everyone amused.


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## Archangel M (Jul 4, 2010)

When you are dispatched to a call...you go. When the caller says "Grandma wants to die and she took a bunch of pills"..that sounds "suicidal" to me. Agree with it or don't, our job here in the US is to take suicidal people to the hospital to talk with the docs/psych's. If she pulls a knife when I am trying to deal with what it is my JOB to deal with then that has to be dealt with.

I guess I don't know where this is going. Grandson should have minded his own biz and let grandma kill herself?


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 4, 2010)

MJS said:


> We have a mobil crisis team where I work. They call the PD any time they're going to eval. someone who is a risk, ie: violent history, etc. There are times, when PD is dealing with a mentally ill person and they'll request us to call the MC team, who will respond and do an eval. usually only if the person is a client of theirs.
> 
> Personally, I think they're pretty useless, because it seems to me that they go out to eval. the same people all the time, for the same issues. Are they really giving these patients any help?


 

And you said the key words......'they call the PD' meaning they rely on the PD to secure the scene.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 4, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Okay, taking it from the article it doesn't say she was suicidal as in she said she was going to kill herself, she said she wanted to die, different things if you listen to it. The two things are different as in her intent. She may have had no intention of killing herself but was wanting death to come quickly from her illness. This indicates her frame of mind. Remember she threatened the police with the knife, she didn't try to cut herself with it. You may think it's nit picking but looking at things like this indicate frame of mind and how you deal with the situation. It may not have been a suicide call at all so the actions may have been inappropriate. Expressing a wish to die when in pain and seriously ill isn't an indication of suicidal tendancies. People have assumed that she was intent on killing herself rather than waiting to die, perhaps she was suidical but what if she wasn't but was wishing that the dying process came sooner rather than later.It's also being assumed that she must be mentally ill because she had expressed a wish to die, for many, that they want to die when in pain and seriously ill is a sign of commonsense and assisted suicides are legal in a few countries which a lot of people will travel to so that they as they say can die with dignity. There was no dignity for this lady was there?
> 
> Moving her and taking her from her home aren't the same thing then? taking her fro her home would involve moving her, no?
> 
> ...


 
Semantics.......if someone says they 'want to die', and is holding off those talking to her with at bay with a knife, hashing over the fact that they didn't specifically use the word 'suicide' is a bit silly.

Personally, however, I think folks should have the right to commit suicide if they see fit........but society has determined that government should intervene in the issue of someone attempting to do harm to themselves. So we're stuck with that reality.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 4, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> When you are dispatched to a call...you go. When the caller says "Grandma wants to die and she took a bunch of pills"..that sounds "suicidal" to me. Agree with it or don't, our job here in the US is to take suicidal people to the hospital to talk with the docs/psych's. If she pulls a knife when I am trying to deal with what it is my JOB to deal with then that has to be dealt with.
> 
> I guess I don't know where this is going. Grandson should have minded his own biz and let grandma kill herself?


 
Exactly! And, if instead of intervening, and getting grandma to the hospital, they had decide to spend a long period of time talking with grandma, and she had taken a lethal dose of drugs, and the time wasted resulted in her death, the PD would be being blamed for not acting decisively.

It's often a lose/lose with the PD, as their job is to respond to crisis situations and make the best of bad choices...........choices other folks obviously can't make for themselves, otherwise they wouldn't have called to begin with.


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## MJS (Jul 4, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Okay, taking it from the article it doesn't say she was suicidal as in she said she was going to kill herself, she said she wanted to die, different things if you listen to it. The two things are different as in her intent. She may have had no intention of killing herself but was wanting death to come quickly from her illness. This indicates her frame of mind.


 
Bzzzzzz..Wrong!  Are you reading the same article here?  This is what was said:



> *Varner's grandson called 911 on Dec. 22 and told the dispatcher his grandmother "wanted to end her life" and that he was concerned she had taken some unknown medicine.*


 
There ya go.  I put it in bold for ya too.   Clearly states that she wanted to end her life.  




> Remember she threatened the police with the knife, she didn't try to cut herself with it.


 
True.  Not sure where you're going with this though.  Of course, any time theres a weapon involved, its possible that it could not only be turned on the people coming to help, but also the person holding it. 



> You may think it's nit picking but looking at things like this indicate frame of mind and how you deal with the situation. It may not have been a suicide call at all so the actions may have been inappropriate. Expressing a wish to die when in pain and seriously ill isn't an indication of suicidal tendancies. People have assumed that she was intent on killing herself rather than waiting to die, perhaps she was suidical but what if she wasn't but was wishing that the dying process came sooner rather than later.It's also being assumed that she must be mentally ill because she had expressed a wish to die, for many, that they want to die when in pain and seriously ill is a sign of commonsense and assisted suicides are legal in a few countries which a lot of people will travel to so that they as they say can die with dignity. There was no dignity for this lady was there?


 
Her mindframe indicates that she was determined to kill herself.  The article didn't mention whether or not she was sick, so nobody knows her condition.  Fact is, until some law is passed, suicide is a police and ems issue and its not legal, whether you do it or pay a doctor to do it.  



> Moving her and taking her from her home aren't the same thing then? taking her fro her home would involve moving her, no?


 
Ok, I'll give you that one, however, I'd bet that she'd have said the same thing to the EMS workers that she said to the cops.  She was attempting to take her life.  Again, until a law is passed that suicide is legal, the womans relative called the police and EMS and they had to respond.  And if it means holding her down and restraining her, then so be it.  It happens all the time where I work, as well as other PDs.



> As I said I'm taking what I see from the same facts as you guys but you see a suicidal mentally ill woman who got violent with the police while I see a woman who could want to end her life at home with dignity but her relative panicked and involved the police in something that has left them looking bad. Put yourself in the woman's position instead of the police or medics, you are sseriously ill, dying probably as you are 87, in pain and don't want to have your life prolonged in pain, you express the wish to die and then police and whoever turns up in your home, threatening to move you so having nothing much to lose you take a knife and threaten them. Dying at home is a very dear wish of many sick and/or old people.


 
Its still suicide.  You're trying to justify her wanting to die in her own house, when in fact she was trying to kill herself.  Just because you're seriously ill, doesnt give you the right to kill yourself.  Once again, suicide is not legal.  One of my Aunts isn't well, and is always in and out of the hospital.  She hasnt tried to kill herself.  If she wants to die at home that bad, then let it be on natural causes, not suicide.  So in your opinion, even though her family called 911, you feel that once they go there, the family should have said, "Oh, we're sorry, it was a mistake.  My relative wants to die, so she OD'd on pills, but thats ok.  Shes in alot of pain, so **** it, just let her die in her own house."  Please.  



> I didn't say what I think was the truth I'm trying to point out that from the 'facts' printed you see something that I don't and I did say I was taking what was printed for my post, *as everyone else has*. As printed by the media, it was a disaster and could have been avoided.
> The truth? who knows. I was doing what everyone else was doing, talking from the 'facts' printed up but because it's a different view from everyone else oh gosh, I'm getting the criticism lol. But there you go, keeps everyone amused.


 
Sure, it could have easily been avoided, had this woman not acted like a fool, and pull a knife.  

As for the article...like I said, its vauge at best.  Some people are trying to defend her actions, while others are trying to show that her actions were not those of someone thats stable mentally.


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