# What next after 15th Dan?



## smacktap (Jun 8, 2007)

You are now a "True" Shihan .. your breakfast cereal refuses to come out of the box...

But seriously, what next? no other art has 15th dans .. there is nothing left to achieve in this mortal world


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## tellner (Jun 8, 2007)

If you've spent that much time chasing rank maybe you'd better spend more time training and less time politicking. And get the ego-reduction surgery which you so desperately need...

(Not you, smacktap, whoever goes in for that sort of silliness)


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## smacktap (Jun 8, 2007)

I wonder at what point your grade become embarrassing. Black belt is cool .. 15th Dan silly. I wonder if Hatsumi intentionally made the grading system a mockery of the the rest of the Martial Arts world ? or did he have a cunning plan to prove that Ninjas like Chuck Norris can have any grade they chose?


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## Carol (Jun 8, 2007)

Funny, the 15th dan that sometimes posts here isn't known of his ego, for sillyness, or for simply being a rank collector.  His resume is so long though, being a 15th dan almost looks like a footnote.  :idunno:


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## smacktap (Jun 8, 2007)

Indeed .. once you get to 15th Dan you are beyond rank collecting   Maybe they should come up with E-rank.com you could trade a 15th Dan for three Okinawa Godans


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## Carol (Jun 8, 2007)

smacktap said:


> Indeed .. once you get to 15th Dan you are beyond rank collecting   Maybe they should come up with E-rank.com you could trade a 15th Dan for three Okinawa Godans



I'll call and raise ya three Korean samdans...how many cards do you want?  :lol2:


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## smacktap (Jun 8, 2007)

I would sell my soul for a black belt in Origami


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## stephen (Jun 8, 2007)

smacktap said:


> You are now a "True" Shihan .. your breakfast cereal refuses to come out of the box...
> 
> But seriously, what next? no other art has 15th dans .. there is nothing left to achieve in this mortal world




...ugh....Training?


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## smacktap (Jun 8, 2007)

why train when you have reached the peak .. the grail


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## Hand Sword (Jun 8, 2007)

I find this interesting. Professor Chow claimed 15th after all of his students claimed 10th's. (sarcastically) I thought he was the only one.


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## The Game (Jun 8, 2007)

The number is just a number.


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## Shicomm (Jun 8, 2007)

The best journeys don't end...


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 8, 2007)

I don't know about y'all but once I hit 15th I'm going for 16th.lol
Sean


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## Hayseed (Jun 8, 2007)

As far as I know, 15th dan is just a sub-set of 10th.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 8, 2007)

:trollsign:

AoG


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

ArmorOfGod said:


> :trollsign:
> 
> AoG



To AoG you listen. Note the status of the OPer. This is unlikely to be worth anyone's while discussing, debating or whatever. It's not the concern of those outside the Bujinkan, so far as I can see; and those inside it are very unlikely to want to pursue it in in this particular venue. Best to just let it die quietly... IMO, it pretty clearly wasn't a sincere OP, and I think AoG has sized it up exactly right. 

On to more constructive topics? :wink1:


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## yamadoshi (Jun 10, 2007)

this is coming from an expierenced ninja 15 dan is low rank it does not mean you are a grand master only if you have fought every style in the world and have created a style that can not be defeted and the study of ninjutsu or ninpo meaning same martial art is foever long going even after 15 dan i am the onwer of silverdragon ninjutsu and have many styles as i have invinted threw out years  against other styles and have success
against them even my own styles i have excaped from over 1000000. technices and wepons good luck and better your self


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## stone_dragone (Jun 10, 2007)

yamadoshi said:


> this is coming from an expierenced ninja 15 dan is low rank it does not mean you are a grand master only if you have fought every style in the world and have created a style that can not be defeted and the study of ninjutsu or ninpo meaning same martial art is foever long going even after 15 dan i am the onwer of silverdragon ninjutsu and have many styles as i have invinted threw out years against other styles and have success
> against them even my own styles i have excaped from over 1000000. technices and wepons good luck and better your self


 
Wow...I am way dumber for having read that.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 10, 2007)

Yeah, me too, but you're not the one banned.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 10, 2007)

Bob - it must be awesome to have power like that....I think that I would sit in my room and laugh evily on a regular basis!


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## Ella (Jun 11, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> I think that I would sit in my room and laugh evily on a regular basis!



Don't you do that anyway? Don't you ever just think... "I know karate! MWAHAHA!" I do.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 11, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Bob - it must be awesome to have power like that....I think that I would sit in my room and laugh evily on a regular basis!


Some folks over the years have suggested such about me.

But I only do it on occasion now. 

Seriously, we only ban in rare cases, usually involving multiple accounts, serious trolling and such.


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## Doc_Jude (Jul 13, 2007)

No, but really...

All joking aside, now that we have a bunch of 15th dans, what's next? Is Hatsumi-sensei starting to issue Menkyo Kaiden to certain 15th dans? Besides that Shinken Gata thingee, of course...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 13, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> No, but really...
> 
> All joking aside, now that we have a bunch of 15th dans, what's next? Is Hatsumi-sensei starting to issue Menkyo Kaiden to certain 15th dans? Besides that Shinken Gata thingee, of course...


 
I believe the answer to that is yes.  I know I believe Peter King received Menkyo Kaiden in Amatsu Tatara and I have heard of other Shihan Japanese (most certainly true) but also foreign Shihan that I believe are starting to receive Menkyo Kaiden in different ryu.  I am sure that Ben Cole will stop by and let us know if I am wrong.


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## Hand Sword (Jul 16, 2007)

I guess it would be ....ah, just make the belt you're wearing whatever color the stripes are. there will be so many anyway, that the whole belt will be taken up by them.


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## Bujingodai (Jul 17, 2007)

I think that Hatsumi Sensei is responsible for his own org and if he chooses to have 15th dan and above then there is a reason for it.
I am sure that he in order to continue the life of the school has placed some emphasis on what is beyond that rank IE Menkyo Kaiden.

Though the purpose of that style of promotion leads to another discussion which people don't want to have just yet.

Hatsumi knows what he is doing I am sure. trying to figure it out has always proved to be somewhat impossibile so better not to.


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## Jdokan (Jul 17, 2007)

can I become a CenturianDan...please I'll be good....I'll even wash my obi EVERY day!!!


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## LawDog (Jul 17, 2007)

The martial arts community of today is much bigger than it was just a few decades ago. During WW2 the military grew very large, because of this the military created the five star General rank.
If there exists a true span of control that can support the position then so be it.
At white belt I was the happiest. :ultracool


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## zDom (Jul 17, 2007)

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and... 

Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten? 

Nigel Tufnel: Exactly. 

Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder? 

Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where? 

Marty DiBergi: I don't know. 

Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do? 

Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven. 

Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder. 

Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder? 

Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.


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## Carol (Jul 17, 2007)

Bujingodai said:


> I think that Hatsumi Sensei is responsible for his own org and if he chooses to have 15th dan and above then there is a reason for it.
> I am sure that he in order to continue the life of the school has placed some emphasis on what is beyond that rank IE Menkyo Kaiden.



Agreed.



> Though the purpose of that style of promotion leads to another discussion which people don't want to have just yet.



Are you referring to the topic of a successor? (If you are, then I agree...it is not time for that discussion.)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 17, 2007)

Hatsumi as the Soke of the Bujinkan has the authority to do as he sees fit regarding ranking.  This he does and the rest of us must just go along with the flow.  It does not effect our training so why worry about it. :idunno:


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## LawDog (Jul 17, 2007)

Very true Brian, why worry about it.


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## stephen (Jul 18, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> I guess it would be ....ah, just make the belt you're wearing whatever color the stripes are. there will be so many anyway, that the whole belt will be taken up by them.



In my experience I've found that a great number of members of the Bujinkan wear no rank-identification markers at all. Additionally, the ones that do ususally just wear the badge - which only narrows it down to 3 categories (for yudansha).

This seems to imply to me that not many people care all that much.


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 23, 2007)

smacktap said:


> You are now a "True" Shihan .. your breakfast cereal refuses to come out of the box...
> 
> But seriously, what next? no other art has 15th dans .. there is nothing left to achieve in this mortal world



William K.S. Chow declared himself a 15 dan, but that was to make a point (plus, who could or would challenge the rank?)


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## blood shadow (Dec 2, 2007)

10th dan has five levels to it then I think that's it.


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## Mangudai (May 21, 2008)

Come to think about it there has always only been 4 belts.
1.  Those who were not not a black belt
2.  ShoDan-Yon Dan
3.  Go-Dan and above
4.  Hatsumi

Beyond that it's mere noise.


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## orang_baik (May 22, 2008)

does 15th dan, makes u a God ?


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## newtothe dark (May 22, 2008)

Depends on who you ask hehe


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## MahaKaal (May 22, 2008)

Rank is just a number that shows you have knowledge of various techniques and forms.  But that is not the pinnicle of martial arts, yes you have the knowledge but what matters is how you put it together.  A syllabus in any martial arts school is the ingredients, the cooking is up to the student.

The limit to any art is how far you want to take it, your own expression, your own personality and emotion should be part and parcel of your skill.  Most people feel that once you receive the rank there is nothing more to be learnt, but once you begin to appreciate the level of skill that old warriors would have on the battlefield, your skill seems like nothing.

These guys would enter the battlefield without fear, fight against hundreds of enemies, amidst rains of arrows, walls of lances, swords, horsemen, canons and muskets and still come out victorious, ready to fight numerous battles afterwards.  What counts is the timing and anticipation of hundreds of mental calculations to avoid injury, dealing with the physcological issues of fighting for everything you stand for, your faith, your family, your children, your king, your master and your honour.  Ego amongst old warriors meant nothing, they served a purpose and upholding their honour was more important then holding a high rank.  Id rather have no rank and be able to jump into a formation and destroy every person standing there, then have a high rank and get slaughtered on the way to a battlefield.

Once you get to a high level of skill in any martial arts, there should be no desire left to chase anything apart from perfection in skill and complete syncronisation with time/death, which ultimately is unconquerable.


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## mrhnau (May 22, 2008)

MahaKaal said:


> Rank is just a number that shows you have knowledge of various techniques and forms.  But that is not the pinnicle of martial arts, yes you have the knowledge but what matters is how you put it together.  A syllabus in any martial arts school is the ingredients, the cooking is up to the student.


While I've enjoyed my time in the Bujinkan, this has been one of my issues. There is no real structure like in other arts. No pre-defined syllabus. Reaching, lets say, shodan does not insure you know any given technique. There only well defined test is the godan test, at least that I'm aware of.

I think you have some givens, such as sanshin, and kihon happo, but beyond that, there is no universal structure. I think its pretty much up to the individual school. I don't terribly mind it, but it does cause some issues. Moving from school to school might prove difficult, and training between schools can cause problems...


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## MahaKaal (May 22, 2008)

I apologise, I am I am not a practitioner of Bujinkan, my comments were very generalised.

In the art I practise, we dont have any ranking, apart from Gurdev (teacher) and Shagird (student), and there is also no set syllabus.  What we are taught is a based around a circular skillset, the basics and advanced levels are constantly rotated, applying higher level concepts to basic levels in order to create a spiraling advancement in skill.  Essentially we base the art around 16 concepts (2 all encompassing concepts, 7 offensive and 7 defensive), all the concepts can be applied to the 10 forms, which ultimately make up a complete singlular form.

So therefore, even though some arts may not have a set syllabus or structure, the teaching is just as effective, if anything imho it makes it more flexible and adaptable.


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## stephen (May 22, 2008)

newtothe dark said:


> Depends on who you ask hehe




"Ray, if someone asks you if you're a god - you say 'YES!'"


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## savagek (May 22, 2008)

Hello all, 

I have been practicing Bujinkan method for about 23 years. Unlike others, I  have always been drawn to its structure and function. But I do understand when folks feel that none exist. Reasons why could be a seperate thread. 

I think many don't enjoy their Bujinkan experience because of the great amount of personal responsibility a student has to take for their own personal growth and development. 

Many times I have been confused and had to search out a solution which ment questing ever onward and never staying stuck in my own thoughts and ideas. 

My dad (RIP) used to tell me to solve problems not to be part of them. 

Soke is fond of saying "Keep Going" sage advice. Thats what I do every time I' am in this spot. 

I also have been giving a rank/ goal way past my currnet level of ability and understanding however I continue to practice and accomplish lesser objectives along the way. 

Remember, it was about 15 years after Hatsumi Soke was giving his title that he felt comfortable in claiming to be so. 

Just an opinion. 

Be well and Gassho, 

Ken Savage 
www.winmartialarts.com


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## orang_baik (May 23, 2008)

IMHO :

i agree with someone who said about 1-3 dan, 4-5 dan and above 5 dan



i still prefer the old style using shoden, chuden, okuden, kaiden

so there is a limit in level

if soke wants to add level that supposed to be between chuden and kaiden

IMHO again, 
there are 4 level of master characteristics :
- shoden : still learn by the book, sensei figure is a must, understand about (mostly) the basic technique but in some technique still dont understand the detail and background. usually trying to create a new technique which is not yet perfect

- chuden : understand basic technique + advanced technique. still need sensei figure, but still can learn just from the philosophy of the martial art it self although not in perfect understanding. try to create a new technique which is usually good and combine it with other martial art he/she already know before

- okuden : understand about advanced phylosophy, advanced techique, he/she is almost as good as the soke.  usually trying to go back to mokuroku, because he/she understand that his/her technique is almost perfect and to understand more he must go back to the mokuroku.

- kaiden : perfect understanding of the ryuha.  Sensei is just a senior practitioner for him, doesnt really need sensei, but still deep respect for sensei. can create perfect technique, but usually just keep it for closed people only to keep the technique doesnt go beyond densho, he/she is the next soke. usually in this level there can be split in technique causing split in ryu ha


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 26, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hatsumi as the Soke of the Bujinkan has the authority to do as he sees fit regarding ranking. This he does and the rest of us must just go along with the flow. It does not effect our training so why worry about it. :idunno:


 
Mr. VanCise I couldn't agree with you more....Well said.


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