# karate



## Zero (Apr 28, 2008)

Well, despite the below link proving beyond doubt that groundfighting never had a place in or alongside karate (just a wind up there) - how many of you train at your dojos or at home combining both karate (strike fighting) and grappling/submission techniques.
My old goju club used to devote time to pure freestyle sparring where you could fight mma and utilise both strikes and submission/takedowns at will and I found this made incredible sense and was great preparation for when you are up against practitioners with different skill sets.  Although a goju ryu dojo, the club also trained in jujitsu (if you so desired) and mixing up the differing styles did not seem to impact negatively on competing in pure karate kumite or sport tournaments.
Due to relocation my current club, although great from a goju perspective (and it does spend time on ground work and defense training) they so far have resisted formalising any time to freestyle where students can flow between striking and grappling - is this the common theme?? It is always good to have the ability to fight and neutralise a grappler but it seems only a half way house when you cannot train with your whole attacking and defensive arsenal- responses/thoughts?

Does this mean I am moving away from traditional karate and goju and need to go purely into an mma club? I will always be a striker by heart and appreciate so many apsects of karate but with judo as my first ma from a young kid and jujitsu alongside I also like to lock up and throw opponents. Maybe I have to move on...


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## punisher73 (Apr 28, 2008)

Zero said:


> Well, despite the below link proving beyond doubt that groundfighting never had a place in or alongside karate (just a wind up there) - how many of you train at your dojos or at home combining both karate (strike fighting) and grappling/submission techniques.
> My old goju club used to devote time to pure freestyle sparring where you could fight mma and utilise both strikes and submission/takedowns at will and I found this made incredible sense and was great preparation for when you are up against practitioners with different skill sets. Although a goju ryu dojo, the club also trained in jujitsu (if you so desired) and mixing up the differing styles did not seem to impact negatively on competing in pure karate kumite or sport tournaments.
> Due to relocation my current club, although great from a goju perspective (and it does spend time on ground work and defense training) they so far have resisted formalising any time to freestyle where students can flow between striking and grappling - is this the common theme?? It is always good to have the ability to fight and neutralise a grappler but it seems only a half way house when you cannot train with your whole attacking and defensive arsenal- responses/thoughts?
> 
> Does this mean I am moving away from traditional karate and goju and need to go purely into an mma club? I will always be a striker by heart and appreciate so many apsects of karate but with judo as my first ma from a young kid and jujitsu alongside I also like to lock up and throw opponents. Maybe I have to move on...


 
Chojun Miyagi (founder of Gojy-ryu) spent about 3 yrs training at the Kodukan and in that time was never thrown.  Kano also spent time training with Miyagi and Funakoshi and learned from them.  Cross training isn't anything new.  Goju-ryu's approach (as with most Okinwan karate) isn't to "grapple" with an opponent on the ground like you do in an MMA match or sport grappling competition.  

So the bigger question is, if you were still at your "old club" would you be happy?  It sounds more like you aren't happy with how your new school runs the classes as opposed to Goju-ryu's curriculum.  It doesn't mean you have to drop your karate in favor of pure MMA.  Why not find an MMA club that you could learn to apply your Goju-ryu to during an "open night" or something similiar.


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## wadokai_indonesia (Apr 28, 2008)

people's needs, opinions and perspectives shift and changes every now and then. Such is life. When I was younger, I am very interested with UFC and other MMA stuff. Now that I am older, I am in favor of Chinese M.A (Taiji, Bagua, Baihe), Wado-ryu & Goju-ryu Karate Katas, and Japanese Aiki Jujutsu, NOT for self-defense or fighting, but for health benefit and making friends. Maybe you want to do a lot of MMA grappling and striking today. But believe me, when you're older, youl'll find that Kata training have its own appeal.


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## TheOriginalName (Apr 28, 2008)

The school that i train at use to be a pure Goju school. 
The head instructor decided to change the corriculum to a mma style. It now incorperates takedowns and grappling. The school itself also offers Kali and BJJ to compliment the primary training. 
The theory is simple: 3/5 attacks these days involve a knife (at least in my city anyway). So it's highly important to learn to defend again it. In addiction to this the majority of fights end up on the ground - so you need options once their. 

The great thing about the school is that though they have incorperated all this addictional freestyle stuff we have also kept a large amount of the traditional Goju techniques. Whilst it's not as much as a pure Goju school would offer i've found that the traditional side has improved my freestyle. 

At the end of the day though we each need to assess why we are doing what we do and what we wish to achieve. 
In my opinion if you want to learn to defend yourself - i recommend a more MMA based school. If you want to complete in tornaments - i would recommend a more traditional school (in my experience MMA doesn't make a good transition to tornaments). 

Anyway, all of the above is just my opinions....


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2008)

wadokai_indonesia said:


> people's needs, opinions and perspectives shift and changes every now and then. Such is life. When I was younger, I am very interested with UFC and other MMA stuff. Now that I am older, I am in favor of Chinese M.A (Taiji, Bagua, Baihe), Wado-ryu & Goju-ryu Karate Katas, and Japanese Aiki Jujutsu, NOT for self-defense or fighting, but for health benefit and making friends. Maybe you want to do a lot of MMA grappling and striking today. *But believe me, when you're older, youl'll find that Kata training have its own appeal*.


 
I must be the odd one then, I still do TMA but as I've got older I've got more and more into MMA!


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## D Dempsey (Apr 28, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Chojun Miyagi (founder of Gojy-ryu) spent about 3 yrs training at the Kodukan and in that time was never thrown.


That just sounds really unlikely.


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## Zero (Apr 29, 2008)

Hey Punisher, thanks for those views, maybe I just need to look at supplementing with some mma alongside - not sure if can find the time though for two different clubs!  Also, I'm kind of with Dempsey in that while your bit on Chogun was interesting it does sound a bit improbable (3 yrs?) - but not saying it is not possible!

I must also be with Tez, in that although I wouldn't classify myself as old I'm certainly no spring chicken any more and on my striking arts seem to have progressed from TKD - Wing Chun - karate and MT and now looking at more mma content.  As yet not drawn that much to focusing purely on katas or tai chi/soft arts.  I get more enjoyment from the more full contact aspects.  Maybe this is reverse progression - or maybe I just realise I am getting older and need to get as much full contact competition in before the body cannot take it and recover so well.


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## punisher73 (Apr 29, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Chojun Miyagi (founder of Gojy-ryu) spent about 3 yrs training at the Kodukan and in that time was never thrown. Kano also spent time training with Miyagi and Funakoshi and learned from them.


 
My fault, I incorrectly remembered the story.  It is in the book "The Way of Kata" by Kris Wilder  (page 64).  It stated that during his military service, Miyagi spent his off duty time training at a judo dojo and in the two years he was never successfully thrown.  I combined that with Miyagi meeting Kano, and Kano being impressed with the locks and throws in Goju Ryu.


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## Zero (Apr 30, 2008)

Thanks to all for the feedback and opinions there; I am difintely staying with goju for now and am going to check out a local mma club I've located in the next couple of weeks to see what I make of it and will then determine if I can keep both going alonside each other.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 30, 2008)

way back in time Karate did have throws and ground techniques in it and Judo had strikes ( ever hear of the Judo chop?)  Time has altered what is taught in each of them

If what you learn today in a "karate" school only has stand up techniques that is part of the evolution of that particular system.  Some systems today seem to only have stand up techniques but in reality have much more to offer when the forms are broken down
many instructors today do not want grappling in their schools for many reasons including the price of insurance.


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## chinto (May 5, 2008)

in traditional Okinawan Karate there is and always has been grappling... standing primarily but some also that works very well on the ground... just as there has always been brakes and locks and throws in Okinawan karate.


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## hpulley (May 5, 2008)

I'm looking around at schools right now and while at first I was leaning toward a pure Judo or Judo/BJJ school, I had a trial class today at what is primarily a Goju Karate class but they also do some Jiujutsu and self defense plus they do Kobudo (ancient weapons, probably not that practical but could be fun) class as well.  I'm still trying out some Judo and Judo/BJJ schools but so far I liked what I saw at this school with its more mixed curriculum.


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## chinto (May 6, 2008)

hpulley said:


> I'm looking around at schools right now and while at first I was leaning toward a pure Judo or Judo/BJJ school, I had a trial class today at what is primarily a Goju Karate class but they also do some Jiujutsu and self defense plus they do Kobudo (ancient weapons, probably not that practical but could be fun) class as well.  I'm still trying out some Judo and Judo/BJJ schools but so far I liked what I saw at this school with its more mixed curriculum.




well if you are looking for self defense and all .. the Okinawan karate systems and the kobujitsu that many also teach are better then BJJ when its winner is still alive and looser is going to the morgue for autopsy...   you may choose as you wish, but that is the way it is .. at least in my humble opinion..  ( ex medic who has seen people die here)


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## Zero (May 6, 2008)

Chinto, I think I get what you're saying and am inclined to agree - judo/bjj like karate/striking mas can also inflict incredible injuries to the body through locks and throws and can result in death - ie choke application past black-out, a flip through glass doors etc.  But in a self defense situation who wants to be looking to go to ground to apply locks or even to spend the time committed (even relatively short time) in a relatively static position to a stand up submission/ie rear naked choke etc when who knows who and how many others may join in at any moment; I'd prefer to keep striking and stay dynamic - and on my feet.  And I prefer to take out any aggressor as quickly as possible and to ensure they don't come back for more - whereas with judo even when you stay on your feet and execute throws there is a chance a strong/determined aggressor will get back up again, hence requiring more time to deal with.


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## Brian S (May 6, 2008)

TheOriginalName said:


> The school that i train at use to be a pure Goju school.
> The head instructor decided to change the corriculum to a mma style. It now incorperates takedowns and grappling. The school itself also offers Kali and BJJ to compliment the primary training.
> The theory is simple: 3/5 attacks these days involve a knife (at least in my city anyway). So it's highly important to learn to defend again it. In addiction to this the majority of fights end up on the ground - so you need options once their.
> 
> ...


 

 That sounds incredibly like our goju school!!


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