# Please join me for a debate exercise



## Steve (Apr 3, 2014)

The goal of this exercise is to clearly articulate a persuasive argument (logical argument; not angry argument) on a controversial topic that is the the opposite of the position you identify with the most.  I expect that the more entrenched you are with one side or the other, the more radical a departure this will seem to you.  But, it's a common exercise in debate and, in my opinion, it's very informative and can make you aware of some blind spots you might have.

I am open to any proposed topic, but suggest we pick one and stick with it for this thread.  To be clear, the intent of the exercise is that you research your new position and debate as passionately in favor of it as you would normally.  

I'll also recommend that you consider the difference between arguing against a position and arguing in favor of a position.  Both can be effective, but they are different.  If you get stuck working one tactic, it can be helpful to try another.

Also, since we're talking about debate, it's okay to use logical fallacies, but be mindful that they are seldom as effective as a cogent, logical argument with conclusions that are built upon sound premises.

So, is anyone game to try this?  Anyone have any ideas for a first topic?


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## Carol (Apr 3, 2014)

Kittens in wood chippers.  I'm against it.   

:redcaptur

In all seriousness, I'm game for a healthy debate.


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## Carol (Apr 3, 2014)

Well, the subject left a bloody mess on my facebook page this morning so....might as well bring it up here.  I cannot guarantee that I will stick with one side of the debate as I tend tend to be neutral on a lot of issues while I puzzle through them and figure them out.  

*Topic:  US Support of the Ukraine
*It's getting warm over there, given:
- NASA has withdrawn support of the Russian space agency, aside from the space staton.
- F16s and troops deployed to Poland
- NATO to conduct live fire exercises in the Ukraine, and has withdrawn political and civilian support from Mosco.
- US has delivered 300,000 MREs to Ukraine.

Go.


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## donald1 (Apr 3, 2014)

i agree kittens in a wood chipper is bad, that's animal cruelty

actually in my opinion dogs are my preferred pet there hyper and more playful(not always a good thing, but generally it is)
cats are nice and friendly and usually calm, there nice i enjoy sitting calm and petting a cat.
but dogs are just more energetic(sometimes too energetic) but overall i prefer dogs


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## billc (Apr 3, 2014)

> Kittens in wood chippers. I'm against it.



I'm for it and here is why..

Because local shelters are already overcrowded and the economy is making it harder for people to keep the cats they have, there is no room for even more cats in these shelters.

You might say, euthanize them humanely, but a wood chipper is no slower than chemically poisoning them, and their suffering is even less, probably instantaneous death versus slow suffocation from the drugs. 

Using drugs to kill unwanted cats is expensive, a cost these overburdened shelters and animal control shelters no longer can afford.  many towns are facing fiscal challenges already with the bad economy and pension systems they have to support so a wood chipper, which would serve a dual purpose, chipping trees and brush and now unwanted cats would actually save money.

In fact, people could bring out their unwanted cats when the village crews are in their neighborhood doing their routine tree clearing work and simply hand them over for "chipping" considering even overweight cats wouldn't be too heavy for the average village worker to toss into the chipper.

You would be,reducing the feral and unwanted cat populations in a cost saving way.  You would also be saving local bird and small animal populations since feral and outdoor cats are killing so many of these animals.

So I argue for kittens and wood chippers...it reduces the unwanted cat population without burdening tax payers, and it frees up shelter space for stray dogs.

Is that what you want Steve?


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## billc (Apr 3, 2014)

Hmmm...looks like this scientist switched sides...

http://www.climatedepot.com/2014/04...-lovelock-reverses-himself-on-global-warming/



> Green guru and geophysicist James Lovelock, considered one of the pioneering scientists of the 20th century, has officially turned his back on man-made global warming claims and the green movement&#8217;s focus on renewable energy. Lovelock conceived the Gaia theory back in the 1970s, describing the Earth&#8217;s biosphere as &#8220;an active, adaptive control system able to maintain the earth in homeostasis.&#8221;





> Lovelock has since reversed himself and now serves a vocal critic of the man-made global warming movement. &#8211; Flashback April 2012: &#8216;Gaia&#8217; scientist James Lovelock reverses himself: I was &#8216;alarmist&#8217; about climate change & so was Gore! &#8216;The problem is we don&#8217;t know what the climate is doing. We thought we knew 20 years ago&#8217;
> Lovelock: &#8216;We haven&#8217;t got the physics worked out yet&#8230;I think the public are right. That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m soft on the sceptics. Science has got overblown&#8217; & 2010: Green Guru Lovelock Says Warmists &#8216;Scared Stiff&#8217;: &#8216;The great climate science centers around the world are more than well aware how weak their science is&#8217;


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## donald1 (Apr 3, 2014)

billc said:


> I'm for it and here is why..
> 
> Because local shelters are already overcrowded and the economy is making it harder for people to keep the cats they have, there is no room for even more cats in these shelters.
> 
> ...



you bring up a good point but, if you had to kill them wood chipper probably wouldn't be the best way to do so


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## Steve (Apr 3, 2014)

While I appreciate the attempts at humor, Billc and donald1, I would like to respectfully refer you to the comedy cafe and ask that you not derail this thread before it even gets started.

This is the Study.  I understand that some amount of thread drift is expected, the exercise I'm proposing is optional, but if taken seriously, can be a very interesting.   I don't know how much interest anyone here has in genuinely examining their own biases and blind spots, which is what this exercise is intended to do.  But, if they are, I'm game to join them.

Thanks for your understanding.


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## billc (Apr 3, 2014)

Apologies...but she started it...

And I mistakenly posted the other one here instead of on the other thread...Can't get rid of it...need a moderator to do it...


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## Steve (Apr 3, 2014)

Carol said:


> Well, the subject left a bloody mess on my facebook page this morning so....might as well bring it up here.  I cannot guarantee that I will stick with one side of the debate as I tend tend to be neutral on a lot of issues while I puzzle through them and figure them out.
> 
> *Topic:  US Support of the Ukraine
> *It's getting warm over there, given:
> ...


Carol, you picked a topic about which I know relatively little, and do not have a strongly held position. Like you, I'm kind of on the fence while I sift through the information that's out there.  

I'm game to try it, but what would you think about trying something that tends to be more polarizing around here?  We could try something martial arts related, like "Street vs Sport."  Or, how about something like gun control/gun rights?  Or legalization of drugs?


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## Steve (Apr 3, 2014)

billc said:


> Apologies...but she started it...
> 
> And I mistakenly posted the other one here instead of on the other thread...Can't get rid of it...need a moderator to do it...


  I appreciate it, Bill.  Would you care to propose a topic about which you have a strong opinion, that you would be willing to debate for the opposition?


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## billc (Apr 3, 2014)

I could go with global warming, gun control, abortion, minimum wage, raising taxes on the rich...if you want...


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## K-man (Apr 3, 2014)

billc said:


> I'm for it and here is why..
> 
> Because local shelters are already overcrowded and the economy is making it harder for people to keep the cats they have, there is no room for even more cats in these shelters.
> 
> ...


Maybe I could add ... the product of the chipping is mulch that can be used to conserve water, deter weeds and provide plants with an optimal growth environment. How much better would it be if you could add nutrients to the mulch as in blood and bone?


Sorry, I posted before reading Steve's comment on this topic! Mia Culpa!


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2014)

Carol said:


> Kittens in wood chippers.  I'm against it.
> 
> :redcaptur
> 
> In all seriousness, I'm game for a healthy debate.



You have to understand that a cat is an effective predator that as an introduced species destroys the ecosystem. A wood chipper while messy is quick and a comparatively painless way of addressing an imbalance in nature that we have created.

The cat itself makes for good compost. Creating a healthier planet for all wildlife.


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## K-man (Apr 4, 2014)

Having thought deeply on the subject, I would love to see how *Bill* and *Maka* would support the motion for greater involvement of the Government in controlling the Ship of State and the management of the economy. This would of course involve the increase in taxes necessary to increase the size of the bureaucracy to achieve a satisfactory outcome and could well involve the removal of firearms to ensure the safety of the citizens in the event that the government would probably wish to take over the responsibility for public safety.
opcorn:


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## Steve (Apr 4, 2014)

I think, in order to keep things somewhat organized, we can use this thread to track potential seeds for some fun threads that will be on specific topics.

Knowing that gun law is something that people here seem to be very knowledgeable about, how about we start with that?  There are a lot of great ideas, and maybe we should consider an animal cruelty debate for you guys!  You seem very keen on kittens and mulchers!  

I want to emphasize that this is intended to be a game, and I would like, once the thread has run its course to be able to declare a winner, chosen by consensus based upon criteria I'll share in the first post.  

Look for a new thread soon.  I'll lay out the ground rules.   This is intended to be a fun thing.  I hope you guys enjoy it.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 4, 2014)

I am in for this, once I catch up on the replies.


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