# Wing Chun's basic stance



## Street Brawler (Jun 13, 2006)

To what I knew, the SNT stance has it's effects in balance and stability. Master Jim Fung and Legend Master Tsui Sheung Tin shows that in this clip. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7wDsaMsypk&search=jim%20fung


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## Jade Tigress (Jun 13, 2006)

Awesome clip. Thanks for posting.


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## Kensai (Jun 13, 2006)

Gucci. Liked the thing at the end. I've seen it done on Mind Body and Kick *** Moves, but never with a guy standing on a cushion, or whatever that was. Good stuff.


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## fightingfat (Jun 15, 2006)

I thought the clip was really great to start off with- very impressive, but then...The throwing the bloke through what?? A peice of cardboard? Or was it an incredibly thin piece of ply wood or something? Looked to me like the sort of material that would break if you fell on it anyway, so what's the idea of that? The thing with the scales is awful, it's obvious that whoever is pushing will apply the force.


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## profesormental (Jun 15, 2006)

Greetings all!

Wouldn't you like to be thrown through a piece of wood? Looks like fun! LOL

Also, The thing of the scales is about using structure, like in a building, to redirect force.

Although I admit that sudden, changing applications of force (changing impulse rates, as they say in physics) would probably off balance him, having good structure at the time of a punch, jam or block would be highly desireable...

and this is a good way to find out what good structure is with measurable results (force addition to weigth).

To me it's just a drill. And makes for good demonstrations!

Enjoy!


Juan M. Mercado


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## Kensai (Jun 15, 2006)

The redirection of force is easily explained, I've just never seen it done while someone's standing on something moveable. That was what I thought was ok. 

The "inch punch" was a bit girly, and looked a little bit like a compliant training partner, but a good demo nonetheless. 

K


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## fightingfat (Jun 15, 2006)

The thing on the scales was done by that guy- Grand Master Chu Shong Tin- at the first VTAA Conference.

The one inch punch should go in, not waste energy by throwing you back! That's a push, not a punch!


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## Kensai (Jun 15, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> The thing on the scales was done by that guy- Grand Master Chu Shong Tin- at the first VTAA Conference.
> 
> *The one inch punch should go in, not waste energy by throwing you back! That's a push, not a punch![/*quote]
> 
> Sure looked like it to me mate. Still, ******** baffles brains, so it probably worked in a demo environment.


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## bcbernam777 (Jun 15, 2006)

Of course a punch will send someone back, even if it is internal, it will still have this effect with the added bonus of internal penetraion. The one inch punch has been miused, abused,and much misunderstood. It may well be a party trick used by many however its application is real, it is genuine, a true energy that comes in useful in the close quarters that Wing chun lives in where you have utilised your structure and leverage force to create maximum penetrative power from a minimum of distance and can be utilised from one inch, half an inch and quarter of an inch, its not the distance, its not the weapon, it is the energy; that is essential.


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## White Fox (Jun 16, 2006)

That was a great Vid thanks for that :asian:


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## fightingfat (Jun 19, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Of course a punch will send someone back, even if it is internal, it will still have this effect with the added bonus of internal penetraion. The one inch punch has been miused, abused,and much misunderstood. It may well be a party trick used by many however its application is real, it is genuine, a true energy that comes in useful in the close quarters that Wing chun lives in where you have utilised your structure and leverage force to create maximum penetrative power from a minimum of distance and can be utilised from one inch, half an inch and quarter of an inch, its not the distance, its not the weapon, it is the energy; that is essential.


 
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one! The short distance punch is delivered in a way that it folds and drops an opponent where they stand, not send them flying.


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## ed-swckf (Jun 19, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> We'll have to agree to disagree on this one! The short distance punch is delivered in a way that it folds and drops an opponent where they stand, not send them flying.


 
Try bracing and rooting against a one inch punch and then try it without bracing or rooting and see the difference in the reaction.


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## bcbernam777 (Jun 19, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> We'll have to agree to disagree on this one! The short distance punch is delivered in a way that it folds and drops an opponent where they stand, not send them flying.


 
Only if the punch has no rootedness behind it, if it does have rootedness then I have found through experiance that this is not the case.


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## fightingfat (Jun 20, 2006)

What are you saying guys? If you brace, you make the other guy fly backwards? I'll have a play later and see if I can figure out what you mean!

If you follow this link you can watch some video of UKWCKFA breaking demo- generating power from short range.

For me, being able to deliver massive power at short range is an incredible skill that is about FRAME, but also speed.

The way we punch from short range, you fold whether you're rooted or not rooted. The impact just works that way. You can practice this on a bag, but it is standard WC technique in that the fist flicks with geng in the last millisecond of the strike.


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## ed-swckf (Jun 21, 2006)

fightingfat said:
			
		

> What are you saying guys? If you brace, you make the other guy fly backwards? I'll have a play later and see if I can figure out what you mean!
> 
> If you follow this link you can watch some video of UKWCKFA breaking demo- generating power from short range.
> 
> ...


 
Personally i was talking about getting the person being punched bracing and not bracing for a different response to the attack.


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## monji112000 (Jun 23, 2006)

I thought it was pretty good example of solid horse. Sure its not the best demo but its good. Sure they could have had a better object to knock him through. The "1 inch" punch he used was correct. People focus on different aspects of the basic punch. For example some people just focus on the Arm and its mechanics. Others turn thier horse also which is what he did. Other turn, push off the ground , turn the whole body , shoulder mechanics, arm ect... Its just a idea of hitting from a short distance. The punch most people talk about is the ONE BL used. That is the last example I gave, its also called the Bow and Arrow punch in WC. In the BA punch you close the distance and step but that the only difference between BL 1 inch punch and the BA punch in WC.

I have heard of other Ip man Disciples showing the power of their horse by standing on one leg and letting someone push as hard as they can. Its real, but I can't say if it is in this clip. Its impossible to tell , unless you are the person pushing.

They have Good WC horses. 
:asian:


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## Kensai (Jun 23, 2006)

monji112000 said:
			
		

> I thought it was pretty good example of solid horse. Sure its not the best demo but its good. Sure they could have had a better object to knock him through. The "1 inch" punch he used was correct. People focus on different aspects of the basic punch. For example some people just focus on the Arm and its mechanics. Others turn thier horse also which is what he did. Other turn, push off the ground , turn the whole body , shoulder mechanics, arm ect... Its just a idea of hitting from a short distance. The punch most people talk about is the ONE BL used. That is the last example I gave, its also called the Bow and Arrow punch in WC. In the BA punch you close the distance and step but that the only difference between BL 1 inch punch and the BA punch in WC.
> 
> I have heard of other Ip man Disciples showing the power of their horse by standing on one leg and letting someone push as hard as they can. Its real, but I can't say if it is in this clip. Its impossible to tell , unless you are the person pushing.
> 
> ...



I'm certainly not knocking the inch punch, or indeed even this persons inch punch, it merely seemed that the recipient over dramatised it, arms like Mr Tickle all over the place. As a demo though, yep, I thought it was ok. I guess part of the problem with WC is that it's not the flashiest art, there's no "My Northern Monkey Fist will defeat your Southern Aadvark WHHAAAAAA!!!" followed by some flailing of arms. Not having a pop at the more traditional animal styles, but I hope you get my point.


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## monji112000 (Jun 23, 2006)

Its a demo, you can't judge anything by demos. If they got someone from the crowd then it would be something else.


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## barriecusvein (Jun 26, 2006)

monji112000 said:
			
		

> I have heard of other Ip man Disciples showing the power of their horse by standing on one leg and letting someone push as hard as they can. Its real, but I can't say if it is in this clip. Its impossible to tell , unless you are the person pushing.



is there a video of this? im not saying your lying or making stuff up, but this just seems too far-fetched.


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## ed-swckf (Jun 27, 2006)

barriecusvein said:
			
		

> is there a video of this? im not saying your lying or making stuff up, but this just seems too far-fetched.


 
Its not uncommon, if you are refering to the single leg thing that is.


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## barriecusvein (Jun 30, 2006)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Its not uncommon, if you are refering to the single leg thing that is.



really? ive never seen it, my ignorance showing through i guess.


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## monji112000 (Jun 30, 2006)

i have never seen it. I know about it from word of mouth. Its very hard to find People who are Diciples of Ip man or someone at that level. Most of the people who are very good at WC are not very popular, have small schools, and aren't famouse. 
Its really silly for demos becouse only the person pushing really knows if its fake or not.


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## Si-Je (Sep 19, 2006)

Quote: fightingfat-The short distance punch is delivered in a way that it folds and drops an opponent where they stand, not send them flying.

When you punch your utilize your entire body to reinforce the punch.  To generate the most power you punch with your spine so to speak.  Flexing the spine forward in unison with the arm and fist creates more power than would be possible for such a short distance or for a smaller person to generate.  This is something Im just now learning about in WC.  Its a bit difficult for me to explain, its easier to demonstrate.  
Wing Chun punching forward force can be used to send the opponent flying back by keeping the wrist straight on impact.
If you wish to drop an opponent where they stand, you flex the wrist up at the point of impact to get more penetration in the punch.

The scale that the Sigung is standing on is underneath a lose roll of quarters.  Which he is balancing on with one foot while being pushed by the larger man.  I have no earthly idea how he pulls that one off, and am pretty amazed!  As I understand it, he was Jim Fungs teacher.  Theres more videos of him that are really great to watch (although everything he says has to be translated) I think their still on the site.

There is much power as well as balance within the basic stance.  Im very petite and Ive noticed that if my stance is not good, my power in striking, forward force, and strength and structure in deflection is useless against a stronger attacker.  Basics are the key to mastery of Wing Chun.


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## Si-Je (Sep 19, 2006)

monji112000 said:


> i have never seen it. I know about it from word of mouth. Its very hard to find People who are Diciples of Ip man or someone at that level. Most of the people who are very good at WC are not very popular, have small schools, and aren't famouse.
> Its really silly for demos becouse only the person pushing really knows if its fake or not.


 
That's true.  We've had a hard time demoing because of wing chun's relaxed and lose almost lazy appearance to the untrained eye.  People cannot "see" the power behind the punching like other external arts where they Kai and tense their muscles as they strike.  It's fast, so people assume theirs no power.  Like the one inch punch, it's small movement, and people think it's fake.

The popularity of WC in america is pretty nil, because it takes a bit longer to become effective.  And the concepts and principles require that one change the way they look at things, not just fighting, but to take another approach to life as well.  They mistake the principles for philosophy and therefore think the art is just that, philosophy and theory.


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## storkandrodent (Feb 22, 2007)

Kensai said:


> Gucci. Liked the thing at the end. I've seen it done on Mind Body and Kick *** Moves, but never with a guy standing on a cushion, or whatever that was. Good stuff.



Sigung Chu was standing on a mahjong piece placed on top of a set of scales. As his opponent pushed harder, his weight on the scales increased. This shows how you can absorb force into your own stance. This may also be applied in many other positions in Wing Chun, such as the bong sao. If someone throws a committed strike at you and you deflect it with a bong sao, you can absorb their weight into your own stance and they become lighter as they end up leaning on you. You can try this out by standing on a set of bathroom scales and then leaning on a bench. You get lighter.

As for the one inch punch, Sifu Fung has always stated that this is not how he punches in a real fight. The one inch punch is pulled so that the force does not travel through the phone book. The force explodes in the phone book and the phone book sends the resisting person backwards. Many students and visitors to Sifu Fung's school have asked him to demonstrate it on them, and they have felt the same.

If Sifu Fung were to focus his force into the person, they would not fly backwards. Instead it would do immense internal damage to them and severely injure them, which would be completely unsuitable for a demonstration.


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## Si-Je (Feb 25, 2007)

We practice the basic stance with a person on each leg pulling in the opposite direction.  Having someone try to lift you up while in stance and when appliying pressure while keeping your structure.  These drills help develop that ability to stand firm in stance while someone is pushing you.  

As for the one inch punch.  Depending on where you direct your force in punching determines how the opponent is affected.  You can use it to "drop" the opponent, or throw them back.  It just depends on how you direct your energy.  For Demo Sifu Fung chose to throw his partner back, probably because it shows the power of the punch more in a demo than to just crumple him to the floor.  (and you want your student to come to class the next day.  lol!)

These things are better understood when felt and experienced than watched on video or at a demo.  But overall, I like the demo very much.


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## brocklee (Jun 16, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> We practice the basic stance with a person on each leg pulling in the opposite direction.  Having someone try to lift you up while in stance and when appliying pressure while keeping your structure.  These drills help develop that ability to stand firm in stance while someone is pushing you.
> 
> As for the one inch punch.  Depending on where you direct your force in punching determines how the opponent is affected.  You can use it to "drop" the opponent, or throw them back.  It just depends on how you direct your energy.  For Demo Sifu Fung chose to throw his partner back, probably because it shows the power of the punch more in a demo than to just crumple him to the floor.  (and you want your student to come to class the next day.  lol!)
> 
> These things are better understood when felt and experienced than watched on video or at a demo.  But overall, I like the demo very much.



Si-Je seems to be able to describe wing chun very well.  I'm not a sifu or anything other then a student but I already am able to feel the energy transfer that starts at the ground and works it way up.  I don't know it well enough the place it behind a 1 inch punch.  However I have utilized it while hammer punching, performing overly aggressive poks and double punches.  Just last week my Sifu demonstrated this on me with a very slight palm to the right side of my chest.  He allowed me to build my structure first and prepare for the blow.  When he released it the first thing I noticed was it felt like a very large circle was tingling on my back and then very slowly I uncontrollably slid back.  His movement was so slight but had a great effect on my center.  I didn't feel a strike of any sort and it didn't really hurt either.  I just noticed the feeling in my back which was like an explosion that started in the center of his targeted area and then worked its way outward to make the larger circle I described.  It pretty much comes down to how much torque you create at the feet and the amount of energy lost at each joint in the transition.  The better you get in form, the more efficient your joints become at transferring this energy until one day you can finally transfer all that energy thats created into one spot with very minimal loss.  That's where being relaxed comes in.  If you end up using the wrong muscles or tensing in the process, energy gets transferred in the wrong direction.  The energy is like electricity in that it looks for the path of least resistance.  When you use your shoulder or tilt your fist in the wrong direction, it is very similar to creating a short in that area.

The demo on the scale was to measure the total weight being directed down.  Notice how the scale didn't slide back.  It's amazing and I have to agree and say that demo was pretty sick.  It's how the little people take on the big guys.


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## CheukMo (Jun 23, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> The popularity of WC in america is pretty nil, because it takes a bit longer to become effective. And the concepts and principles require that one change the way they look at things, not just fighting, but to take another approach to life as well. They mistake the principles for philosophy and therefore think the art is just that, philosophy and theory.


 
The reason it's not very popular in the U.S. is besides your points, taking longer to learn and grasping concepts, is there is no way of "showing" that you have the skill without using it; ie there are no red belts or brown belts or black belts.  There are sifu and students.  

I don't have any power like that yet, or rather I don't know how to harness and use it.  I have felt it and seen it in practice and in person by Sifu Kenneth Chung.  It is truly amazing.


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## brocklee (Jun 24, 2007)

TigerStripe said:


> The reason it's not very popular in the U.S. is besides your points, taking longer to learn and grasping concepts, is there is no way of "showing" that you have the skill without using it; ie there are no red belts or brown belts or black belts.  There are sifu and students.
> 
> I don't have any power like that yet, or rather I don't know how to harness and use it.  I have felt it and seen it in practice and in person by Sifu Kenneth Chung.  It is truly amazing.




I don't think WC takes longer to learn then other arts, this may just be my opinion but I think it goes beyond that.  It takes much longer to make black belt or 10th level practitioner(which ever is equivalent to blackbelt) in WT then it does to learn all the forms in wing chun, chi sao, and dummy forms.  It was my understanding that it was created to be taught in a faster manner then other arts.  

I do agree with you on the belt part though.  A lot of people need them for other reasons then just to hold up their pants.  People take up other MAs so that they can get some discipline, build confidence, find center and become more physically able comparative to the rest of the world.  The effect of the belt is that it not only displays the level of expertise of the practitioner but it also supplies a back bone of achievement, motivates the student to excel in skill, and sets a level of fairness amongst the students.  Some people need that and I believe those to be more related to life lessons rather than something you learn at a dojo or kwoon.  But that's how it is.


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## larry (Jun 25, 2007)

as all of you wing chun practitioners know, pushing through with your roots,  or stopping the energy internally are two different applications.  You still need your connection for either to apply.


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## CheukMo (Jun 26, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I don't think WC takes longer to learn then other arts, this may just be my opinion but I think it goes beyond that. It takes much longer to make black belt or 10th level practitioner(which ever is equivalent to blackbelt) in WT then it does to learn all the forms in wing chun, chi sao, and dummy forms. It was my understanding that it was created to be taught in a faster manner then other arts.


 
I studied TaeKwonDo and got my yellow belt in about six weeks, but it took a bit longer to go to green stripe and then green belt. When I studied WC I only got to Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma and the centerline punch in three months. To me it seemed that the WC group I studied with wanted to make sure that I (and other students) to have a very firm base before moving on.


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## tenth1 (Jun 28, 2007)

wow fantastic clip thanks for posting


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## brocklee (Jun 29, 2007)

TigerStripe said:


> I studied TaeKwonDo and got my yellow belt in about six weeks, but it took a bit longer to go to green stripe and then green belt. When I studied WC I only got to Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma and the centerline punch in three months. To me it seemed that the WC group I studied with wanted to make sure that I (and other students) to have a very firm base before moving on.




Was it WC or WT?


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## CheukMo (Jun 29, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Was it WC or WT?


 
WC, Leung Sheung-Ken Chung lineage.


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## bcbernam777 (Jul 3, 2007)

larry said:


> as all of you wing chun practitioners know, pushing through with your roots, or stopping the energy internally are two different applications. You still need your connection for either to apply.


 
Without a proper root you cannot effectivly stop the energy internally. Whilst I agree they are seperate, they are however interdependant, to be truelly effective they rely on one another to do so.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 5, 2007)

Wow, nail hitting head!! 

It is interesting to see stanceworrk in martial arts and how important it can be. However, you should also train your upper body and lower body seperately as well, as it will help in clinchwork, groundwork, and sparring.


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## brocklee (Jul 8, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Wow, nail hitting head!!
> 
> It is interesting to see stanceworrk in martial arts and how important it can be. However, you should also train your upper body and lower body seperately as well, as it will help in clinchwork, groundwork, and sparring.



I believe you should work your upper and lower body together at all times.  You wouldnt remove the turret portion of a tank, just because you're only practicing driving manuevers.  Or vice versa, you wouldn't remove a tanks tracks because you're only going to be shooting for the day.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 9, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I believe you should work your upper and lower body together at all times. You wouldnt remove the turret portion of a tank, just because you're only practicing driving manuevers. Or vice versa, you wouldn't remove a tanks tracks because you're only going to be shooting for the day.


 
And when someone is grappling you and pinning down your arms or your legs? Sometimes you need to be able to work the upper and lower body as seperate entities. 

Also, many movements in wing chun where upper and lower body move together are easy to read.


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## brocklee (Jul 15, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> And when someone is grappling you and pinning down your arms or your legs? Sometimes you need to be able to work the upper and lower body as seperate entities.
> 
> Also, many movements in wing chun where upper and lower body move together are easy to read.



Fighting on the ground in WC is the same as if you we're standing up.  Just sideways.  It is much harder to use the concept of leverage vs. strength while on the ground which puts us at a disadvantage but all the strikes come from the center which shouldn't really change the amount of power that we deliver in the strike.  The opponent on the other hand will have to resort to changing his punching style because he's used to a much wider swing and that's difficult when your shoulder is planted to the ground.

I do actually agree with you about separating the upper and lower half....from time to time.  I think you should work it together at times and individually at others.  It really depends on what the situation calls for.  

I think when done properly WC is difficult to read because our shoulders stay square and our punches come from the center.  Our close quarter combat style makes it very hard for an opponent to see whats going on down stairs


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 16, 2007)

Remember as well that you have a floor behind you and that the direction of gravity has changed!! 

I know a lot of wing chunners make the mistake of trying to grapple using wing chun! Rather than learn a grappling art. 

But you are right with using legs sometimes and arms other times


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## brocklee (Jul 18, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Remember as well that you have a floor behind you and that the direction of gravity has changed!!
> 
> I know a lot of wing chunners make the mistake of trying to grapple using wing chun! Rather than learn a grappling art.
> 
> But you are right with using legs sometimes and arms other times



WC punches aren't gravity based and already being trained in very close quarter attacks helps when someone wants to give you a hug.  I recommend anti-grappling over grappling.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 19, 2007)

brocklee said:


> WC punches aren't gravity based and already being trained in very close quarter attacks helps when someone wants to give you a hug. I recommend anti-grappling over grappling.


 
Try punching an opponent who has mounted you.... 
The concept of 'anti-grappling' doesn't sit well with me. I know some people swear by it, but I started doig BJJ and realised how difficult it is to actually grapple. 

I agree that you can use stancework to prevent takedowns - a lot of the UFC use stances to stop shooting. However, if someone drags you to the floor unexpectedly, I am not convinced that wing chun would hold up. 

I would love a person who is experinced in anti-grappling to come and train with me as I am always willing to be converted. 

I have trained a bit of BJJ and some wrestling and my ground game isn't too bad. But if anyone does anti-grappling really well I would love them to come to my class and play around afterwards


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## brocklee (Jul 19, 2007)

I brought this up with my sifu last night also.  He said that if I get taken to the ground, I need more WC training


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## Changhfy (Jul 19, 2007)

Just to state a few of my opinions.

In some branches of Wing Chun actually the Yi Ji Kuem Ying Ma (2 character abducting energy stance) occasionally typo as 2 character pressing goat stance (in chinese characters the characters for pressing goat and abducting energy are similar and occasionally confused as such)

But like Hung Fa Yi generally starts the student out with the Leung Yi Ma and Buen Yi Ma as well as the Yi Ji kuem ying ma.

This adds another dimension to intercepting an opponent as leung yi ma lets the student add the Lik "power" of the foot, knee and hip. at an angle.

As for the last comment about grappling and anti-grappling (qin na/fan qin na)

What has always helped me is the gate theory. Its important to note the gates and how to shut each gate off. (or a basic concept of cover the gates/Sei Mun)

I have used this concept against grapplers including those going for single leg and double leg takedowns. (but its important to know the mechanics of grappling as well, this will aid in being able to defend against such)


take care,
Zach


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## brocklee (Jul 19, 2007)

Changhfy said:


> Just to state a few of my opinions.
> 
> In some branches of Wing Chun actually the Yi Ji Kuem Ying Ma (2 character abducting energy stance) occasionally typo as 2 character pressing goat stance (in chinese characters the characters for pressing goat and abducting energy are similar and occasionally confused as such)
> 
> ...



agreed


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 20, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I brought this up with my sifu last night also. He said that if I get taken to the ground, I need more WC training


 
That is a very bad statement to make. I have been doing wing chun for a fair time, but there are some situations that you cannot stop being taken to the ground. These are two I thought of on the top of my head (both of which have happened to me)

Scenario 1 - You are out drinking. You trod on someone's foot whilst going to the toilet. You go back to the bar/your seat. The bloke follows you, grabs you and throws you/takes you to the floor. You wouldn't see it coming

Scenario 2 - You are fighting a better fighter who has trained wing chun and BJJ. Knowing that you have down wing chun he drgas you down to finish you on the floor

It is true that there are good stances that prevent getting taken to the floor but there are circumstances (two mentioned above) where you will inevitably be clinched or dragged to the ground.

If you have ever trained against a catch wrestler or BJJ practitioner you will find that it is not always that easy to stay on your feet


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## brocklee (Jul 22, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> That is a very bad statement to make. I have been doing wing chun for a fair time, but there are some situations that you cannot stop being taken to the ground. These are two I thought of on the top of my head (both of which have happened to me)



I don't believe so.  My sifu is a WC sifu for a reason and his lineage maintains a strong belief in teaching what Ip Man taught with very little variation.  Excessive addition to the forms would take the art from WC to a  MMA.  I train WC because of the theory behind the movements, not because I'm worried about what someone else.



Kamon Guy said:


> Scenario 1 - You are out drinking. You trod on someone's foot whilst going to the toilet. You go back to the bar/your seat. The bloke follows you, grabs you and throws you/takes you to the floor. You wouldn't see it coming
> 
> Scenario 2 - You are fighting a better fighter who has trained wing chun and BJJ. Knowing that you have down wing chun he drgas you down to finish you on the floor
> 
> ...



An airplane can fall from the sky and land on my head, without a warning.  Should I goto a piloting school?  No, I'll rely on the WC I have been taught and trust that what my sifu has passed down to me will work.  If it doesn't, I'll go back and ask my sifu why my pok no block plane.


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## monji112000 (Jul 22, 2007)

brocklee said:


> No, I'll rely on the WC I have been taught and trust that what my sifu has passed down to me will work.  If it doesn't, I'll go back and ask my sifu why my pok no block plane.



sounds like a plan, why not also ask why gun sao won't block a AK47? I am not saying you can't use Wing Chun and ideas behind it in situations that maybe weren't as common or didn't exist "back then".. but lets be realistic here. You are going one day fall or trip. you may come across somebody that is able to take you down. You may not have friends to back you up. You may get sucker punched.


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## Changhfy (Jul 22, 2007)

To give some ideas,

Wing Chun being a Southern Shaolin system was coming from Shaolin as whats known as Human range or the 6 gate theory.

So for the Shaolin student who had to have some level of body karma before even training in Wing Chun, that student before hand would train in the ranges of combat.
Tek/Da/Suai/Na.

So the Dai Ji already had a decent level of knowledge or body karma beforehand. So my point is lets say a guy in TKD beats me, then I go and study TKD. Then a guy from BJJ beats me then I say wow TKD isnt good so lets go study BJJ. Then someone else from some other system beats me and I say lets study that system. This type of thinking of style vs style/ technique vs technique will lead endlessly and wont yield any significant progress.

So its important to understand the ideas of the ranges of combat, as well as the mechanics behind it. But this doesnt mean that you have to go study systems x, y and z to be proficient.

As long as you understand the mechanics behind the heaven/human/earth paradigms then you will truly be able to understand the essence of Shaolin.

Again this is my opinions based on Wing Chun stemming from the Shaolin background, If you dont believe Wing Chun came from the Southern Shaolin. (then thats great I welcome all opinions and facts)

I hope this helps.


take care


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## brocklee (Jul 22, 2007)

Changhfy said:


> To give some ideas,
> 
> Wing Chun being a Southern Shaolin system was coming from Shaolin as whats known as Human range or the 6 gate theory.
> 
> ...



Nice, thanks for the info


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 23, 2007)

Oh my god...

Saying that a guy will take you to the floor is nowhere near the same as dealing with a gun. For a start, gun encounters are very rare (you're not even allowed to own a gun in Britain) whereas almost every fight I have witnessed ends up on the floor. 

To trust what your Sifu is saying without question is blind. I am not saying that you should challenge him or be rude to him in his class. But if he dismisses the idea of being grabbed in a street then he is, I am afraid to say, quite misguided. 

Wing chun is a great art on its own, but it is not a complete art. It does not deal with long range and it does not deal with grappling. At least, not in a definative way. 

Can I ask whether you have seen a real fight? That is not meant to be patronising but it will affect how you see your martial arts training

I have, I am sad to say, been in many fights. The one thing I have found that if you get in too close to people they will start to grab you. 

I am not saying that you have to prepare for a BJJ guy, but if you want to study fighting you cannot leave out grappling. 

To say your Sifu is for a reason is nonsense. Any one of my students could open up a class and pass themselves off as an instructor.


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## brocklee (Jul 23, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Oh my god...
> 
> Saying that a guy will take you to the floor is nowhere near the same as dealing with a gun. For a start, gun encounters are very rare (you're not even allowed to own a gun in Britain) whereas almost every fight I have witnessed ends up on the floor.
> 
> ...



Here in Arizona, its legal to carry a concealed weapon and it's very rare to have a large party, meeting or assembly of some sort without having any guns.  Fights don't go to the floor here because people here don't fight.  Might get shot.  Kinda sucks because I would rather duke it out then stick em up.  
I've been in a decent amount of fights.  More then most, less then some.  I don't personally have a love for it, like pride or ufc...but I do enjoy thinking about what happened after one has gone down.  

I like reading your posts Kamon. There very dramatic, and that's appealing over here in the states


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 24, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Here in Arizona, its legal to carry a concealed weapon and it's very rare to have a large party, meeting or assembly of some sort without having any guns. Fights don't go to the floor here because people here don't fight. Might get shot. Kinda sucks because I would rather duke it out then stick em up.
> I've been in a decent amount of fights. More then most, less then some. I don't personally have a love for it, like pride or ufc...but I do enjoy thinking about what happened after one has gone down.
> 
> I like reading your posts Kamon. There very dramatic, and that's appealing over here in the states


What can I say, I'm a dramatic kind of guy. Still waiting for Hollywood to call!! 

Your point is fair. I don't live in a world of guns, so my heart goes out to you dude. Mind you, when the zombies come, you Americans will be able to defend yoursleves and us Brits will be trying to get them off with pitchforks!! 

I am used to close quarter fights in bars or in a kebab shop after nightclubbing. I haven't had many fights in the desert etc. So it is interesting to hear your side of it all


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## brocklee (Jul 24, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> What can I say, I'm a dramatic kind of guy. Still waiting for Hollywood to call!!
> 
> Your point is fair. I don't live in a world of guns, so my heart goes out to you dude. Mind you, when the zombies come, you Americans will be able to defend yoursleves and us Brits will be trying to get them off with pitchforks!!
> 
> I am used to close quarter fights in bars or in a kebab shop after nightclubbing. I haven't had many fights in the desert etc. So it is interesting to hear your side of it all



That's funny as hell.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 24, 2007)

What can I say? Funny as well as dramatic!!
Us Brits do have a sense of humour. Look at our Prime Minister for example!


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## brocklee (Jul 25, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> What can I say? Funny as well as dramatic!!
> Us Brits do have a sense of humour. Look at our Prime Minister for example!



HA!


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## Si-Je (Jul 25, 2007)

wow man.  
In reguards to basic stance (or horse as some call it), if you master rooting and keep your structure under pressure, you can an will defeat a grappler or wrestler.
My instructor and hubbie sparred a 10 year teacher of JKD and BJJ.  He was twice his size and shot in to take my hubbie to the ground.  He just stood there in advanced stance (which surprised me for I thought advanced stance/one leg forward was structurely weaker in that aspect) and kept standing there to make a point.  This very point.  When well rooted you don't get taken down.  

He did this more for my benefit because I'm tiny and had little faith in being able to keep a larger man from just picking me up and flinging me around.
He proved his point to me, and my doubt is defeated, now I can train rooting with more confidence and faith in the technique.

Basic/horse stance I've gained more confidence in.
He has two students each grab and ankle and pull my legs apart.  I've gotten pretty good at keeping them from disturbing my stance.  And he has one of our larger students grab me at the knees and try to pick me up while in basic stance.  This I can do sometimes, but when I fail is only when I have doubt in my mind.  (which is easy to do when being run at by a six foot 230 pound teenager who lifts weights and is strong as an ox! lol!)

Point being, for the past three years I've resisted the concept that I can do this, so have kept myself from learning.  I kept thinking, no way!  I have to do more, grapple back, wrestle back to keep a huge stong guy from picking me up.  Thus, I stunted my own Wing Chun growth.  
Just sharing a little lesson that I have recently learned, the hard way.


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## brocklee (Jul 25, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> wow man.
> In reguards to basic stance (or horse as some call it), if you master rooting and keep your structure under pressure, you can an will defeat a grappler or wrestler.
> My instructor and hubbie sparred a 10 year teacher of JKD and BJJ.  He was twice his size and shot in to take my hubbie to the ground.  He just stood there in advanced stance (which surprised me for I thought advanced stance/one leg forward was structurely weaker in that aspect) and kept standing there to make a point.  This very point.  When well rooted you don't get taken down.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much   I see we train under similar concepts.  Grappling breaks the concept of smaller beating bigger.  We can WC on the ground, sideways or on our back... but trying to wrestle a larger person isn't bright in my opinion.   I enjoy reading your posts Si-je.  What is your lineage?


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## Si-Je (Jul 25, 2007)

We utilize anti-grappling as well.  This coming from my husbands lineage from Sifu Emin, he also combines Sifu Fung's system and techniques.  He recieved rank in both and teaches both.  

I really love the anti-grappling methodology.  It's nothing short of brilliant.  I see that the WC/WT concepts and principles applied to ground fighting and they work amazingly well.  You even use basic/horse stance on the ground in a sense.  We do to keep the opponent's weight off you when they attack between the legs.  I've even practiced anti-grappling while pregnant and easily kept our student (at six foot 260 lbs) off me without straining my body using this basic stance while on the ground.

Of course, you don't just lay there all day, you move and re-direct the opponents energy on the ground just as you would while standing.

I'm still working on rooting with stance and can really pull it off on occasion.  Just have to practice more.  Of course, may people don't like working on Chi, but I find that this is cruitial.  Whether you "believe" in it or not is irrevelant.  Belief is not a requirement to the fact that it works, has everything to do with rooting, re-directing energy from an opponent, and generating power in striking whether on the ground or standing.


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## brocklee (Jul 25, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> We utilize anti-grappling as well.  This coming from my husbands lineage from Sifu Emin, he also combines Sifu Fung's system and techniques.  He recieved rank in both and teaches both.
> 
> I really love the anti-grappling methodology.  It's nothing short of brilliant.  I see that the WC/WT concepts and principles applied to ground fighting and they work amazingly well.  You even use basic/horse stance on the ground in a sense.  We do to keep the opponent's weight off you when they attack between the legs.  I've even practiced anti-grappling while pregnant and easily kept our student (at six foot 260 lbs) off me without straining my body using this basic stance while on the ground.
> 
> ...



Yes, anti-grappling is the way to go.  It's amazing that you're did that while pregnant.  I don't believe in Chi but I believe we root a similar power that works with the structure.  It's what keeps us planted on our heals and comes from the midriff.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 26, 2007)

Woah woah woah!! Slow down slow down. I never meant that a grappler would take a guy down if they were squared off etc. 

You can usually keep your feet against anyone if you know what to do in that set format. Watch the UFC - most can easily prevent the shoot

My point was that if you are not squared off (someone grabs you from behind, etc), you can't rely on wing chun alone to save you. 

Fights hardly ever happen like in a film. You don't have time to position yourself or your footwork. I have seen many good fighters (including my friend who has done karate for twenty three years) taken to the ground before they knew what was happening. 

All I'm saying is don't get too blinded by wing chun and anti-grappling. Wing Chun is great, but don't dismiss other arts so quickly. I am a big guy and have a strong base, but I was taken down by Roger Gracie like I was a ragdoll


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## brocklee (Jul 26, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Woah woah woah!! Slow down slow down. I never meant that a grappler would take a guy down if they were squared off etc.
> 
> You can usually keep your feet against anyone if you know what to do in that set format. Watch the UFC - most can easily prevent the shoot
> 
> ...



Well, for the time being I'm going to stick to WC until I get everything down.  Maybe after that I'll take up BJJ because it seems to be pretty effective.  I really see it getting confusing, not sure though, to switch between different styles.  I definitely don't like incorporating movies that break concepts or go against the originating style.


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## Si-Je (Jul 26, 2007)

Well, if I were to be taken by surprise I'd really have to count on sensitivity and adaptation anyway.  I'll stick to WC.  Cross training before you have a complete grip on an art would only confuse your training.  I've done that before.
Plus, it's been my experience that when your surprised, or taken off guard (i.e. jumped) it's your muscle memory that takes over, not your mind.  The mind doesn't even have time to know what's happening.  Your body and training cause you to react much before thought can process.
As for having time to get into basic stance.  It's not really that far away from just standing in a normal non fighting position.  Feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent.  All you'd have to really change is the angle of your feet and shift your hips up.
Simplicity.


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## brocklee (Jul 26, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> Well, if I were to be taken by surprise I'd really have to count on sensitivity and adaptation anyway.  I'll stick to WC.  Cross training before you have a complete grip on an art would only confuse your training.  I've done that before.
> Plus, it's been my experience that when your surprised, or taken off guard (i.e. jumped) it's your muscle memory that takes over, not your mind.  The mind doesn't even have time to know what's happening.  Your body and training cause you to react much before thought can process.
> As for having time to get into basic stance.  It's not really that far away from just standing in a normal non fighting position.  Feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent.  All you'd have to really change is the angle of your feet and shift your hips up.
> Simplicity.



You describe sooooo well


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 27, 2007)

I know what you guys are saying. Kevin Chan once held up a stance on one foot and I could barely move him let alone drag him to the floor. But as I said that was more to do with a situation where he could see me going and for demo purposes

In BJJ you only really need to now a few techniques that will help add to your wing chun. You won't, for example, need to know how to arm bar or leg bar someone. You won't need to know how to traingle someone. You can just work getting into a mount and getting back up again

The point is that don't write off other martial arts. If you don't want to do them, fine, but know your enemy!!!


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## Si-Je (Jul 27, 2007)

I've done other arts and loved them!  Wing Chun's just my total fav.
Arm bars and joint locks aren't hard to learn and utilize, if you can get a couple of good punches in.  I took Ju-Jitsu for three years and loved it.  Great alternative to what everyone elese was learning at the time.
And effective.
But when I found out WC/WT have joint locks too, that just kinda sinched it for me.  Seemed like a pretty well rounded art.  + the anti-grappling of course.  It's just a simpler way to defend yourself.


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## brocklee (Jul 27, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> I've done other arts and loved them!  Wing Chun's just my total fav.
> Arm bars and joint locks aren't hard to learn and utilize, if you can get a couple of good punches in.  I took Ju-Jitsu for three years and loved it.  Great alternative to what everyone elese was learning at the time.
> And effective.
> But when I found out WC/WT have joint locks too, that just kinda sinched it for me.  Seemed like a pretty well rounded art.  + the anti-grappling of course.  It's just a simpler way to defend yourself.



That's what it really comes down to, simplicity.


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