# The Balance Between Practice and Instruction and Frustration With Students



## dancingalone (May 20, 2010)

I'm annoyed with some of my guys.  I teach in a variety of locations nightly, but my top priority goes to the students in my private dojo.  I only charge them a minimal fee and they get the best instruction I can give them as it's supposed to be an elite yet traditional dojo.

Part of the social compact at my private dojo is that the students are supposed to spend at least 3 times the amount of class time at home, practicing and honing the lessons I have given in class.  This allows me to avoid a minimum of practice repetitions and really focus on teaching 'new' material as much as possible, essentially making class time 'Sensei regurgitation' time.  

Recently, I've noticed some of the students, even some of the senior ones slacking a bit, as they've not been as sharp on the recent lessons as I know they would be if they had practiced it.  I can ignore it a couple of times and I have, but it's getting past the point of tolerance for me, and I'm about to blow up about it in a big way.

Hmm, not sure what the point of this post is, other than to vent some.  Maybe my expectations are too high?


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## DavidCC (May 20, 2010)

beat on them until they get the point?


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## jks9199 (May 20, 2010)

I don't know how many hours you run class, but I'm going to assume that it's 3 hours over the course of a week.  So you're asking them to spend 9 hours or more outside of class, without instructor or structure to that time.  I assume they work 40 hours a week, and probably spend at least 5 to 10 commuting.  Then there's the rest of life to deal with, too...

They may slack off sometimes.  It may not be a matter of choice, but of reality.  College professors at the end of the semester are swamped with papers and finals.  Accountants are flooded in March and April as tax time approaches.  And so on...

Or it may just be a little burnout/plateauing.  Maybe they need the class repetition and tweaking that can be done under your supervision, rather than just drilling without correction on their own.  They may just be at a point that they need some time to really assimilate and apply what you've taught.

Rather than explode -- maybe discuss it with a few of them.  See what they have to say.


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## terryl965 (May 20, 2010)

Dancingalone if you ever figure it out please let me know....


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## KELLYG (May 20, 2010)

Are they slacking because they did not understand your lesson and do not want to embed it incorrectly into muscle memory or are they just being lazy?  I know myself that if I did not quite get something the first time I would probably not spend a lot of time repeating it until it was fully understood.  It is just a lot easier for me to learn things one time instead of learning and relearning.  If they are just being slack, then have them come up one at a time and demonstrate a technique from the previous lesson.  This should insure that they are better prepared the next time.


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## dancingalone (May 20, 2010)

KELLYG said:


> Are they slacking because they did not understand your lesson and do not want to embed it incorrectly into muscle memory or are they just being lazy?  I know myself that if I did not quite get something the first time I would probably not spend a lot of time repeating it until it was fully understood.  It is just a lot easier for me to learn things one time instead of learning and relearning.  If they are just being slack, then have them come up one at a time and demonstrate a technique from the previous lesson.  This should insure that they are better prepared the next time.



Both are the same in my book, since I emphasize that if one doesn't understand something, we are NEVER, NEVER to end the class until everyone is on the same page.  My private dojo originally started as a way for me to gain partners myself to continue my own study of karate.  My students, especially the senior ones, would be rather useless as partners for me unless they possess a certain standard of understanding of the system.

I like your idea of calling them on the spot like that.  I just might start implementing it as a gentle way of correction.  Thanks, Kelly.


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## jks9199 (May 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Both are the same in my book, since I emphasize that if one doesn't understand something, we are NEVER, NEVER to end the class until everyone is on the same page.  My private dojo originally started as a way for me to gain partners myself to continue my own study of karate.  My students, especially the senior ones, would be rather useless as partners for me unless they possess a certain standard of understanding of the system.
> 
> I like your idea of calling them on the spot like that.  I just might start implementing it as a gentle way of correction.  Thanks, Kelly.


Often, people -- especially adults who have some sense of achievement -- are unwilling to admit that they don't understand or are having trouble with a lesson.  They're sure that they're the only ones who don't understand, and don't want to be embarrassed by saying that they didn't understand.  The instructor can make this worse, depending on their style and how they respond to questions, especially if the subject matter is relatively basic.


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## DavidCC (May 21, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Often, people -- especially adults who have some sense of achievement -- are unwilling to admit that they don't understand or are having trouble with a lesson.  They're sure that they're the only ones who don't understand, and don't want to be embarrassed by saying that they didn't understand.  The instructor can make this worse, depending on their style and how they respond to questions, especially if the subject matter is relatively basic.



yep, so make sure they understand the everyone is missing it, one is not being singled out


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## Nomad (May 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I like your idea of calling them on the spot like that.  I just might start implementing it as a gentle way of correction.  Thanks, Kelly.



If that doesn't work after awhile, you can make the spot-tests a little more formal, offering on-the-spot rewards or minor punishments to let the class know your expectations.  What the rewards/punishments entail depends greatly on your style of teaching and system.


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## Victor Smith (May 23, 2010)

Dancing,

While not knowing enough details to respond in a more specific manner, I suggest it might be your expectations that are causing you the problem.

It sounds like you have a very busy time, traveling and teaching and the small group you want to work with you isn't living up to your expectations. Well for starters karate is a social practice, we grow working with others. Expecting a student of any rank to train 3 times as much as they're taught doesn't take into account the students needs to work with you.

The individuals with the type of personal drive you're looking for are extremely rare. Having taught people for a long time in those who stay (say after black belt) there are only two types, those who train to work out and those who train for more. You can't motivate someone to be other than they are. 

We're not teaching students living walking distance from our house, in a time where there was no electronic media and they have the time to train hard. Even in the past I suspect it was much the same, hence the stories why some material was saved for students who proved themselves by training 20 or 30 years first.

The reason I don't have anyone begin instuctor training till they've been with us for 15 years is there's a lot that must be experienced first, not just how to throw a punch. They have to see people come and go, and experience why people train in the long run.

You cannot change a persons nature (we're not the military after all) all you can do is direct them, within what they can give.

You have the right and responsibility to run your program as you wish, but I've seen instructors drive senior students away becuase they didn't live up to the instructors dreams.  And those people were good, just not obeying....

In the end you must decide what you're doing. If it's a program just to have the 'right' people around to train with, they you MUST get rid of the rest, you're not teaching to scold, but in turn your group will likely become much smaller. On the other hand if you're running the program to teach the others then you must change your focus and understand who they are.

It's one thing to tell someone new you have to practice 3 times as much as you're trained, it's another thing to let them experience that and in the long run find they have different ends, though they want to keep training.

BTW does anyone thing punishments work for anyone? If you say so are you willing to accept your instructor punishing you? Most likely not.

Pointing out mistakes, even sharply, so they remember that mistake can and will cost them in life, is very important. But punishing them most likely starts the step to move them out the door.

BTW the way I always test an instructor is by the quality of the students they develop, and quality isn't just martial technique, but are they on the path to become better people, with the MA just a small piece of that.

Walk gently and save the big stick for one's enemies, not one's friends.


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## stickarts (May 23, 2010)

I have found that as an instructor there is a lot that you can do, and a lot that you cannot so. You can provide the place, the teaching, and the guidance and encouragement, however, the students have to do their part. Also, your goals for them may not necessarily be their goals for themselves. What is important is that you stay true to your goals and just keep doing your best to reach the students. When one way isn't as effective as you had hoped, try a different way. :0)


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## dancingalone (May 23, 2010)

Good thoughts, gentlemen.  I fully concede that I have high expectations for this particular group.  I don't have the longevity you have, Victor, but a few of my senior students have been training with me for almost ten years.  They were the reason I built a private dojo in my home, so I've invested time, money, and love into this endeavor.

I am not really interested in driving off anybody.  We currently have a good mixture of experienced martial artists with some young tigers short on technique but strong indeed in body with some decent training from other fighting styles like boxing.  It's a fine group to train and grow with.  They have made me better in the past and I hope in the near future it returns to the same level of intensity/dedication we had in the past.

It might partially be me.  Recently, for the first time, I've taken on some not-so-serious students in other locations, and this might have ME off-kilter a bit.  Perhaps I just need to take some time and self-reflect on my own center.


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