# Tracy's Kenpo



## Rob Broad (Jul 19, 2004)

Who studies, studied or has interest in Tracy's Kenpo?


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## OC Kid (Jul 19, 2004)

I did for a while in San Diego under Todd McElhenny who took over Dick Willets school. Good system.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 19, 2004)

I have a background in Tracy's Kenpo.  My first instructor taught the tracy system until he quit teaching.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 19, 2004)

I am surprised there hasn't been more replies to this thread.


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## bluenosekenpo (Jul 19, 2004)

there are two tracy's schools in halifax. i went to one of them.


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## Blindside (Jul 19, 2004)

Geez Rob, what did you do, post every CanAm topic starter on this board???

Mark me down as a Tracy lineage kenpoist.

Lamont


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## KenpoDave (Jul 19, 2004)

Count me in.   I study and teach it.


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## RCastillo (Jul 19, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Count me in.   I study and teach it.



Same here! :asian:


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## Rob Broad (Jul 19, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Geez Rob, what did you do, post every CanAm topic starter on this board???
> 
> Mark me down as a Tracy lineage kenpoist.
> 
> Lamont




Just trying to kick things up a notch around here, and possible get a Tracy forum if there will be enough traffic to warrant it.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jul 20, 2004)

I'm not part of the Tracy's organization, but my instructor taught the old Tracy's 40-technique curriculum, so I guess I qualify.


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## don bohrer (Jul 20, 2004)

I belong to the TRA-CO org! Does that count? :supcool: 

Don (El Paso)


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 20, 2004)

I took a bit of Tracy's in Aurora Colorado about 88 89.
Sean


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## KenpoTess (Jul 20, 2004)

I studied Tracy's .. now EPAK. 

~Tess


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 20, 2004)

I trained in Tracy' s too. There's a lot of good material there.

Tim Kashino


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 20, 2004)

My instructor teaches us some of Tracy's and some EPAK techniques and I think some of our sets are Tracy's so I'd be interested in a place to discuss some of the things I've learned that originated in the Tracy Kenpo system.


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## don bohrer (Jul 20, 2004)

> I'd be interested in a place to discuss some of the things I've learned that originated in the Tracy Kenpo system.



Me too! 

I would like to compare charts, Kata, and explore the whys behind some of the techniques. Just how far has the apple has fallen from the tree? 

Don (EL Paso)


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 20, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> I would like to compare charts, Kata, and explore the whys behind some of the techniques. Just how far has the apple has fallen from the tree?
> Don (EL Paso)


 I can relate.  I asked the same questions.....26 years ago.  I did the  comparisons and found out how far the apple fell from the tree.  

 :asian:


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## Ceicei (Jul 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I can relate. I asked the same questions.....26 years ago. I did the comparisons and found out how far the apple fell from the tree.
> :asian:


So how far did it fall? This would be really cool to share what insights you discovered with us.

The best comparison I saw was a chart listing similar techniques (Tracy and EPAK) with their respective names.  It made it easier to communicate when discussing techniques.

- Ceicei


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 20, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> So how far did it fall? This would be really cool to share what insights you discovered with us.
> 
> The best comparison I saw was a chart listing similar techniques (Tracy and EPAK) with their respective names. It made it easier to communicate when discussing techniques.
> 
> - Ceicei


Ceicei if you still have a copy can you please post it?

Thanks, 
MJ


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## CB2379 (Jul 20, 2004)

Actually, not to sound too naive, but what exactly is the difference between Ed Parker's system and Tracy's system? I have visited the Tracy web page and read all the articles but the major difference to me seems to be the names of the techniques (eg. Grip of Death in EPAK = Headlock A in Tracys)

In fact, I really don't know which one I study! MJ and I study at the same school and she said it that we learn both, but, again, what is the difference?

Chuck


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## TheEdge883 (Jul 20, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> So how far did it fall? This would be really cool to share what insights you discovered with us.
> 
> The best comparison I saw was a chart listing similar techniques (Tracy and EPAK) with their respective names.  It made it easier to communicate when discussing techniques.
> 
> - Ceicei



I'd also like to know this. I have always wondered what technical differences there are between the two schools, but can't afford to buy some Al Tracy tapes.

I have purchased the Tracy's kata guide off ebay (i collect anything kenpo) and did kind of figure out their terms and stances, but I would like to see how it's done, rather than how it's written.


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## Ceicei (Jul 20, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Ceicei if you still have a copy can you please post it?
> 
> Thanks,
> MJ


Well, the one I have is a partial list and cannot take credit for it. The full list of the comparison with clickable links that describe each technique is found under "The Flame" archives over at http://www.kenponet.com website. If you go there, do give these links a click, they will show you how the technique is done and you can compare the similarities and differences. As you requested, I have posted the partial list.

Edited: 

 Post got messed up! I need to straighten it out. Be right back... (or better yet, just go over there). I have to change the codes with my wordperfect document into html to get it to post properly here.

- Ceicei


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## Rob Broad (Jul 20, 2004)

Having experienced both systems I would say there are some definite differences.  Terminology is a major difference.  The Tracy has more techniques and more variations just look at techniques like Crash Of The Eagle parts A-E in Orange Belt and the Crash Of The Eagle Part 2 A - I in Purple Belt.  The Tracy has taken almost every possible sistuation and created a technique for it, and for different attacker positions in the defense. EPAK has fewer techniques but then there is also the extension.  EPAK prefers to let the student expand and learn parts on their own through experimentation where the Tracy system has everything laid out.  I have also notice a difference in the application of the technique.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 20, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> So how far did the apple fall?
> - Ceicei


   Well, as apples that "fall off" the tree goes........ it is obvious that the  *apple* was from the same tree.  The mere fact that it "fell off" (or why)  is the issue.  Some apples fall off at full maturity... others fall  *before* they are ripe or have reached their fullest potential of size and  nutrients from the parent tree.  



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> This would be really  cool to share what insights you discovered with us.
> -  Ceicei


 This would be quite lengthy and probably not the place to outline differences that have occurred over the past 30 + years since Tracy broke away to form their own particular version of what Ed Parker started and then continued to develop and improve on till his passing.

 Needless to say, after I became a student of the Late SGM Ed Parker, I clearly realized the differences and was glad to come home and remain with the parent tree and become a fruitful seed in his orchard.
  :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 20, 2004)

CB2379 said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the difference is in the names of the techniques (eg. Grip of Death in EPAK = Headlock A in Tracys), again, what is the difference?
> Chuck


 Yes, many (not all) of the names are one difference but  that is the least of the comparisons.  The main issues are in exactly how, what  and why you are executing the movements within any specific technique.  Also,  EPAK has many "Kenpo Tools" that were developed/refined and evolved by Mr.  Parker after Tracy departed. 

 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 20, 2004)

TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> I have always wondered what technical differences there are between the two schools, but can't afford to buy some Al Tracy tapes.


 You still won't find what you are looking for there.  You will  find the "Tracy" version and several hundred technique variations for their  system that he has developed over the years.



			
				TheEdge883 said:
			
		

> I have  purchased the Tracy's kata guide off ebay (I collect anything kenpo) and did  kind of figure out their terms and stances, but I would like to see how it's  done, rather than how it's written.


 Now there ya'  go.......... I think it's the How's Why's that you are after, and that's what  you are seeking. 

 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 20, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Having experienced both systems I would say there are some  definite differences.


 Agreed



			
				Rob  Broad said:
			
		

> Terminology is a major difference.


 I again agree  with you Rob, as well as many other major useful "Kenpo Tools" such as: the  Universal Pattern, Equation formula, Master Keys, The ASM, Web of Knowledge,  Principles, Philosophy/Sayings, 8 considerations, 3 divisions of the Art,  numerous Drills and training aids, etc. etc.



			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The  Tracy has more techniques and more variations just look at techniques like Crash  Of The Eagle parts A-E in Orange Belt and the Crash Of The Eagle Part 2 A - I in  Purple Belt.


 Yes, apparently the Tracy system philosophy is  teach "more is better", as to the number of self defense scenarios.  We in EPAK  call this phenomena "variable expansion".



			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The Tracy  has taken almost every possible situation and created a technique for it, and  for different attacker positions in the defense.


 Well, it is  realistically impossible to show or create or recreate "*every* possible  situation" that could occur in any given self defense situation but they have  created many (600 +) different possibilities for the students to examine and  memorize within their base system. 



			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> EPAK has fewer  techniques but then there is also the extension. EPAK prefers to let the student  expand and learn parts on their own through  experimentation


 Yes, 154 to be exact, but the emphasis or  difference in philosophy, is to develop a keen understanding of the base  movements (Master Keys) and then be able to formulate "extemporaneously"  unlimited variations.



			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> The Tracy system has  everything laid out.


 Well, it does explore/ record for  student memorization numerous variations of their self defense scenarios... if  that's what you mean.  



			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I have also notice a  difference in the application of the technique.


 Yes, there  are many interesting application variables.

 :asian:


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## TheEdge883 (Jul 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Now there ya'  go.......... I think it's the How's Why's that you are after, and that's what  you are seeking.
> :asian:



Ahh ok good deal then. I can understand that. I guess that's what I like most about American Kenpo, it seems more flexible and allows for more personal tailoring.


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## RCastillo (Jul 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I can relate.  I asked the same questions.....26 years ago.  I did the  comparisons and found out how far the apple fell from the tree.
> 
> :asian:



It's true, I admit it; I'm related to the Goldendragon! :uhyeah:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 20, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> It's true, I admit it; I'm related to the Goldendragon! :uhyeah:


  Hi...Ya Bro.....
  :wavey:    ....   :whip:.......:boxing:.....  (brotherly love)


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 20, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> It's true, I admit it; I'm related to the Goldendragon! :uhyeah:



WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! :idunno:  I never thought it was possible. %think%


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## KenpoDave (Jul 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Yes, apparently the Tracy system philosophy is  teach "more is better", as to the number of self defense scenarios.  We in EPAK  call this phenomena "variable expansion".



Maybe.  If kenpo is a language, following EP's alphabet of motion analogy, why is it wrong that Tracy's has a large vocabulary?  "True creativity lies in a firm foundation of knowledge and discipline."  In other words, by exposing students to so many technques and variations, I feel that when this variable expansion occurs, there is more of a chance of actually advancing the art.  By limiting the exposure to techniques and situations, is it possible that people in EPAK are creating the same "new techniques" that everyone else is creating?

And, anyone familiar with the whole of the Tracy System understands that the techniques are not 600 unique, completely different techniques.  They are simply a way of exercising the basic techniques in differing scenarios.

Ed Parker sculpted a masterpiece, and left it for people to study and learn from.  Al Tracy has given people the rock, and the tools to sculpt their own.




> Yes, 154 to be exact, but the emphasis or  difference in philosophy, is to develop a keen understanding of the base  movements (Master Keys) and then be able to formulate "extemporaneously"  unlimited variations.



The philosophy is the same.  It is the application of the philosophy that differs.  Same mountain, different path.  Parker did not start with 154.  What he learned came from the whole package.  There will perhaps never be another Ed Parker, simply because no one in EPAK will have the opportunity to start with what Ed Parker had.  Had a genius of his caliber been given a system with 154 techniques, perhaps when he was done chiseling, you would have been left with, say, 55 techniques, and one form.

Dogma is a useful tool.  It makes it easy to categorize all your stuff in the box.  But it is helpful to step back from the box and look at some of the others.  You may find the same stuff, organized a little differently.  

 :asian:[/QUOTE]


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## Ceicei (Jul 20, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> It makes it easy to categorize all your stuff in the box. But it is helpful to step back from the box and look at some of the others. You may find the same stuff, organized a little differently.


Loved that point!  Do you mind if I quote you if I need to make a similar point? 

- Ceicei


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## Rob Broad (Jul 20, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Maybe.  If kenpo is a language, following EP's alphabet of motion analogy, why is it wrong that Tracy's has a large vocabulary?



There is nothing wrong with a large vocabulary, the problem begins when there are to many similar words.  By having too manytechniques and variatins the students becomes bogged down, it is just like reading a very dry technical manual, some people will have little or no problem understanding it but most be will become frustrated and move on.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> "True creativity lies in a firm foundation of knowledge and discipline."  In other words, by exposing students to so many technques and variations, I feel that when this variable expansion occurs, there is more of a chance of actually advancing the art.  By limiting the exposure to techniques and situations, is it possible that people in EPAK are creating the same "new techniques" that everyone else is creating?



True creativity comes from the ability to tailor the art to fit the individual.  By following the equation formula, the student molds the system to fit them.  There are only so many possible combinations of the basics but it is how those basics are strung together for each individual that makes Kenpo effective.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> And, anyone familiar with the whole of the Tracy System understands that the techniques are not 600 unique, completely different techniques.  They are simply a way of exercising the basic techniques in differing scenarios.



But are there really 600 techniques needed, or is osme of the information rehashed just to fill up space on belt levels.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Ed Parker sculpted a masterpiece, and left it for people to study and learn from.  Al Tracy has given people the rock, and the tools to sculpt their own.



I want to say this is backwards.  Ed Parker gave us the art classes and technique, and allowed us paint our own personal portrait.  Al Tracy gave us a paint by numbers set.  But both pictures bot come out nice.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> The philosophy is the same.  It is the application of the philosophy that differs.  Same mountain, different path.  Parker did not start with 154.  What he learned came from the whole package.  There will perhaps never be another Ed Parker, simply because no one in EPAK will have the opportunity to start with what Ed Parker had.  Had a genius of his caliber been given a system with 154 techniques, perhaps when he was done chiseling, you would have been left with, say, 55 techniques, and one form.



That sounds alot lot like the IKCA program, 55 Techniques and 1 Form.  What SGM Parker put together at times can be hard to phathom, but with categorizing and recategorizing everything seems to fall into place.  Al  Tracy also has a good program it is just different than what SGM Parker had done.  It is too bad SGM Parker passed away before he revealed his next phase for kenpo, we can only imagine what it would have held.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 20, 2004)

Has this amount of Tracy traffic warranted its own forum?  

Can we continue good topics in a Tracy's forum?  

Can we stop it from becoming a flame fest?  

Only the people involved can mold it, it is now up to the staff to see if they want to have a Tracy's forum.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 21, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Maybe. If kenpo is a language, following EP's alphabet of motion analogy, why is it wrong that Tracy's has a large vocabulary?


  Tsk tsk Dave........ why so defensive?  I don't  recall saying that it was wrong at all!  We were discussing differences if you  read carefully.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> "True creativity lies in a firm foundation of knowledge and discipline." In other words, by exposing students to so many techniques and variations, I feel that when this *variable  expansion* occurs, there is more of a chance of actually advancing the art.


  Creativity for whom........ Al Tracy or the students?   Developing a system that has 600 + techniques is (*IMHO*) overkill, which  takes the student 6 times longer to finally reach the point where he/she can  start concentrating on the *"*_essence_*"* of the techniques or system rather than constantly memorizing continual reworked techniques. Not "wrong" just a different philosophical direction which is one difference between systems.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> By limiting the exposure to techniques and situations, ... is it possible that people in EPAK are creating the same "new techniques" that everyone else is creating?


  A}  Who said anyone was *limiting exposure* to techniques???....... just because the base system of EPAK has fewer techniques doesn't mean there is less exposure being taught. (Granted .... this all depends on the individual instructors methods) 

 B} Yes, it is quite possible that individuals could inadvertently produce similar self defense maneuvers [regardless of system or global location] ....... there are only so many ways to move.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> And, anyone familiar with the whole of the Tracy System understands that the techniques are not 600 unique, completely different techniques. They are simply a way of exercising the basic techniques in differing scenarios.


  Yes, many A, B, C, D, versions of the  same technique with minor changes etc.  (Keep in mind, many viewers are  *NOT* familiar with one or both systems ..... thus the  questions)"



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Ed Parker sculpted a masterpiece, and left it for people to study and learn from. Al Tracy has given people the rock, and the tools to sculpt their own.


  Well, I must totally  disagree with you on that one.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> The philosophy is the  same.


 In many instances........ yes, very close, but not in all areas. (The apple did fall in the proximity of the tree) 



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> It is the application of the  philosophy that differs.


  Application is a KEY word but not  only in philosophy but in mechanics as well.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Same  mountain, different path.


 True, same mountain and different paths, but the key issue is the exact tools or equipment that the mountaineers are carrying.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Parker did not start with 154  techniques.


 True, he did evolve to those.... it was a PROCESS for sure (and much detailed refinment to that process occured  in the 80's).



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> There will perhaps never be another Ed Parker, simply because no one in EPAK will have the opportunity to start with what Ed Parker had. Had a genius of his caliber been given a system with 154 techniques, perhaps when he was done chiseling, you would have been left with, say, 55 techniques, and one form.


 Only if the goal was to pare down the numbers to the Keys. You see we already have a "Master Key System" of movements which are far less than the base 154. The 154 still has usefulness for teaching the beginner to "develop" those keys. The advanced students then elevate to "using" what they have learned and trained in a pragmatic sense.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Dogma is a useful tool. It makes it easy to categorize all your stuff in the box. But it is helpful to step back from the box and look at some of the others. You may find the same stuff, organized a little differently.


  Most certainly!  I always  love to compare notes with others.
   :asian:


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## Trident (Jul 21, 2004)

I started out with Tracy Kenpo in Cleveland, OH in the late 80's & reached 3rd Brown.  After spending 9 years in the Navy, I started over again in American Kenpo in Austin, TX.  I made it back to 3rd Brown earlier this year. Below are a couple of differences I experienced in my  training:

1. The Tracy movement was much more Chinese - big, flowing circles. EPAK uses smaller, elongated circles and rounded corners: Economy of motion.
2.  Tracy focus was on the sequence of moves, but not the "how & why" to make them work. Mostly a "do it like this". I mimicked my instructor, and was fast, but was guilty of what Mr. Burks refers to as "waving my hands in the air" - lots of motion with no apparent effect.  The EPAK focus has been on the proper execution of the techniques, including the "why".  Being an engineer by training (read:geek) I like the in depth explanations of body mechanics and physics that go into achieving the "relaxed power" that Mr. Billings demonstrates so well.  I'm physically slower than I was 16 years ago, but my motion is more efficient, and effective. I know fewer techniques, but I can make them work.
3.  We had very controlled contact in my Tracy school, and never "thumped".  In my EPAK school, we take the saying "..to feel is to believe"  seriously.

The above observations represent my personal experience, and may be more an indication of the quality of my EPAK instruction than anything else, but they are some of the differences I have noted.


Mike


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## bdparsons (Jul 21, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Only if the goal was to pare down the numbers to the Keys. You see we already have a "Master Key System" of movements which are far less than the base 154. The 154 still has usefulness for teaching the beginner to "develop" those keys. The advanced students then elevate to "using" what they have learned and trained in a pragmatic sense.



Dennis,

Interesting thoughts. Let's take Dave's not-so-subtle reference to the IKCA and expand a bit.

I have been told by at least four unrelated sources (hearsay yes, but unrelated sources lend to it being true) that Huk Planas commonly makes the assertion in his seminars that 2/3 of the techniques in the American Kenpo sysytem violate Kenpo principles and concepts. He then states it's up to the Kenpo practitioners themselves to find out which ones do.

Above you make reference to the "Master Key System" being "far less" than the 154.

What I think I'm hearing when I put the two observations together is that there is a solid Kenpo core that has been expanded on in both EPAK and Tracy's. Expansion seems to have occured in both sysytems, and I'm not sure it was entirely beneficial in either case.

Have we lost the forest for the trees? Should having a solid Kenpo core with fewer techniques and all principles and concepts in place actually accelerate the learning process and bring the tailoring and spontaneous phases of Kenpo to fruition quicker?

Yes, I am an IKCA practitioner, but I'm not looking for blind support or total disregard of what the IKCA sysytem is. I'm just trying to get serious thoughts about comparing the three.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 21, 2004)

bdparsons said:
			
		

> I have been told by at least four unrelated sources (hearsay yes, but unrelated sources lend to it being true) that Huk Planas commonly makes the assertion in his seminars that 2/3 of the techniques in the American Kenpo system violate Kenpo principles and concepts.


 Well, I can not speak for Huk nor can I answer why he says what he says. What I can say is only on a case by case basis looking directly at the specific technique and violation he would speak of. All techniques are not taught the same by all Kenpoists (due to many reasons) so in some cases... I'm sure I would agree with him, it would also depend on what he prescribes to as violations. While he is quite knowledgeable and skilled (and I enjoy probing him for his point of view), he is not the last word on all the material. Even his old instructors disagreed with some of what he has said (Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, and yes even SGM Ed Parker {btw this is 1st hand info - from *me* asking them personally on various statements over the  years}) publicly. 



			
				bdparsons said:
			
		

> He then states it's up to the  Kenpo practitioners themselves to find out which ones  do.


 That IMHO _could _be his personal choice of teaching  methodology (which may work well for him) but this path may not work for  everyone.



			
				bdparsons said:
			
		

> Above you make reference to the "Master  Key System" being "far less" than the 154.


 Yes, it really is  no secret.



			
				bdparsons said:
			
		

> What I think I'm hearing when I put the two observations together is that there is a solid Kenpo core that has been expanded on/in both EPAK and Tracy's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				bdparsons said:
			
		

> bdparsons said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## KenpoDave (Jul 21, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Loved that point!  Do you mind if I quote you if I need to make a similar point?



Sure!


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## KenpoDave (Jul 21, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Creativity for whom........ Al Tracy or the students?



The students.  You cannnot be truly creative until you have studied the whole of the subject.  Look at Bruce Lee.  He created Jeet Kune Do using principles that are available in most systems, but he did not have the full knowledge of the system, or the discipline to stick with one, so he made stuff up.  He was right, but his concepts were not unique.



> A}  Who said anyone was *limiting exposure* to techniques???....... just because the base system of EPAK has fewer techniques doesn't mean there is less exposure being taught. (Granted .... this all depends on the individual instructors methods)



I agree.  It does, however, depend on the individual instructors doing a lot or research formulation on their own.  Which leads to the part you put in parentheses!



> True, he did evolve to those.... it was a PROCESS for sure (and much detailed refinment to that process occured  in the 80's).



What I infer here is that you are saying that Ed Parker created the master keys and the 154 techniques.  I could be wrong.  But, I thought that Ed Parker started with a much larger framework, 400 techniques to shodan if memory serves, and pared the system down from there.

Al Tracy did not create a system with 600 techniques, but rather was taught one, and chose to stick with it when Ed Parker began to change things.  He did not accept Ed Parker's paring down.  EPAK is not the tree from which the Tracy's apple fell.  EPAK is an apple that fell off the tree of kenpo.  It was mentioned that we may be missing the forest for the trees.  I would submit that many EPAK practitioners think EPAK is the forest, when it is in reality a tree.  As is Tracy's, as is the IKCA.  Kenpo is the forest.  And we could expand on that into oblivion, but I think you get the point.

My point is simply that the tools that Ed Parker used to refine his system were tools he developed from kenpo.  The kenpo that someone else taught him, and the kenpo he taught to his early students before he formed EPAK.  Al Tracy chose to stick with the original kenpo that Parker taught.

If I seem defensive, it is because the EPAK group always treats every other kenpo system as if it is somehow less.  EPAK reminds me of Jeet Kune Do in that it was Ed Parker's current understanding of kenpo at the time of his death.  Ever the innovator, I imagine that 15 years later, he would be different.  To move the art forward from that point, you can't just jump in where Ed Parker was.  You have to start where he started.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 21, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> What I infer here is that you are saying that Ed Parker  created the master keys and the 154 techniques. I could be wrong. But, I thought  that Ed Parker started with a much larger framework, 400 techniques to shodan if  memory serves, and pared the system down from there.


I think  a better way of putting it was that Ed Parker "realized" after a period of time  (early days) that there were reoccurring movements within the system that he had  been creating/evolving.  This led to the (again) realization and thus the term  "Master Keys".  

In the early days there was a lot of focus on physical  activities and self defense scenarios (which eventually led to techniques and  unlimited variables) this base of techniques and variables started being  recorded and thus numbered in the hundreds.  This was what they had to work with  at that time, along with the forms that were being developed and eventually  inserted into the system.   As the "business" of Ed Parkers Kenpo began to take  shape (thank you Tom Connor) and sprang to life.... a syllabus was obviously  necessary as well as a belt program devised.   

After much trial and  error, it was deemed to re-organize many of the basics, techniques and form  placements within the structure (thus the many different technique  lists/interpretations that are out there still handed down).   Some instructors  decided to leave with what they had at that time and start their own studios  (for numerous reasons).  The Tracy's were one of these that departed in the  '60's .... but you already know that.

Ed Parker continued to evolve and  "upgrade", improve, and innovate on what he had already put  together/created/evolved or whatever you wish to term it,  to the time of his  passing.  He re organized the early techniques into 4 charts of 32 techniques  each for Orange, Purple, Blue, and Green, then in '78, reorganized the system  into the 23 per belt system which went up thru 3rd Black and added a 10  technique Yellow Belt.  In '88 he was approached by several black belts who  wanted to "adjust' the system (cut down the number of techniques per chart for  business reasons after the Korean Invasion). He did not want to "drop" any of  the techniques at this point but was willing to look at yet another  rearrangement, {Brian Duffy being the one who started the project}, and was  testing (with several studios and instructors this plan) a new 16 thru Green set  of techniques, 20 for the 3 brown & 1st Black Levels, and 24 for the 2nd  Black thru 5 Black Levels.  It was getting rave reviews from everyone that heard  of it and many were in the process of switching to this new order at the time of  his passing.  Nothing changed.... just re-arranged.

As I mentioned prior,  much was accomplished during the 80's and he was in process of publishing his  latest training manuals as well as a comprehensive video series of which he only  completed 2 tapes of approximately 30 some.   During this time he *WAS*  able to publish his Infinite Insights series which outlines much of what he has  accumulated up to that time.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Al Tracy did not create  a system with 600 techniques, but rather was taught one, and chose to stick with  it when Ed Parker began to change things. He did not accept Ed Parker's paring  down.


Ok, I'll take your word for it.  I would tend to agree  with you.  He has been very successful at preserving what he learned from Ed  Parker at that time, but I do believe he made many changes and additions on his  own, heck he was into doing that when he was with Ed  Parker!



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> EPAK is not the tree from which the Tracy's  apple fell.


Ok, at the time that the Parker/Tracy split  happened...... SGM Parker did not "*term*" his system EPAK, just Ed  Parker's Kenpo Karate.  So if that's the semantics game you are playing ok I  agree.   The Term EPAK didn't take place until the '80's.   

*Make no  mistake*..... Al Tracy was one of _*Ed Parkers Black Belts*_  and he was learning what Ed Parker taught.  Ed Parker's material was unique to  him (not talking about generic basics now),  Chow didn't do his material, nor  did anyone else, it was uniquely Ed Parker's innovations and arrangements,  anyone telling you anything different is simply... well....
:bs:




			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> EPAK is an apple that fell off  the tree of kenpo.


Ed Parker was under Chow, then after  asking Chow to come to the mainland and work with him on the development of  Kenpo...... Chow declined because he wanted to stay in Hawaii, and gave Ed  Parker his blessings to forge ahead as he so desired, which he did. 

Of  Course you can consider EPAK a "Kenpo" link due to  Chow.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> It was mentioned that we may be missing the  forest for the trees. I would submit that many EPAK practitioners think EPAK is  the forest, when it is in reality a tree. As is Tracy's, as is the IKCA.


Well, I can't and won't speak for the EPAK community at  large, but from my perspective, I *totally disagree*.   I speak only  for myself (however I know of many who share my views), and realize that EPAK is  _*NOT*_  a forest at all (never heard of anyone that thought so  either), but anyone that is doing any of the material (mode of movement,  techniques, terms, forms, sets or any of the unique to Ed Parker material) is or  was at some time connected or influenced by ED PARKER.  This includes The Tracy  System, IKCA, Paul Mills group, Skip Hancock's Group, Palanzo's WKKA, Spearman's  AKKS, Tatum's LTKKA, and numerous others.   These all stem from the *TREE  *of *ED PARKER* [*all* these men  trained under, received rank and teach a form of what Ed Parker taught at  the time these men studied with them] *NOT*  Kenpo in general (which would include KaJaKenBo and  others).



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Kenpo is the forest. And we could expand on  that into oblivion, but I think you get the point.


I'm sure  there are many under the general KENPO heading but we are specifically talking  about those that were associated, trained and taught by Ed  Parker.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> My point is simply that the tools that Ed  Parker used to refine his system were tools he developed from kenpo.


In the beginning he had to use what he knew at that  time..... sure, but as he evolved he learned much on his own and added to his  repertoire as his understanding increased.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> The kenpo  that someone else taught him, and the kenpo he taught to his early students  before he formed EPAK.


YES, totally agree, he taught his  "*early*" students what he knew at that time, but he sure as heck didn't  stop there!!!



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Al Tracy chose  to stick with the original kenpo that Parker taught.


Yes, I  agree with you here, but only the tools and how to use them at the time that he  was with Ed Parker.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> If I seem defensive, it is  because the EPAK group always treats every other kenpo system as if it is  somehow less.


I am not representing *any/all* EPAK  Group.  I only represent my personal observations and opinions.  So don't mix me  in with anyone else.



			
				KenpoDave said:
			
		

> EPAK reminds me of Jeet Kune Do  in that it was Ed Parker's current understanding of kenpo at the time of his  death. Ever the innovator, I imagine that 15 years later, he would be different.  To move the art forward from that point, you can't just jump in where Ed Parker  was. You have to start where he started.


Yes, If he saw an  improvement to be made.....he would research it  then take measures to improve upon it... I agree.

 :asian:


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 21, 2004)

> As the "business" of Ed Parkers Kenpo began to take shape (thank you Tom Connor)



Ahha!...... Someone other than me knows the name "Tom Connor". Would somebody please spill the beans and talk a little bit about Mr. Connors? What was he like? 

Don (El Paso)


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jul 21, 2004)

bdparsons said:
			
		

> I have been told by at least four unrelated sources (hearsay yes, but unrelated sources lend to it being true) that Huk Planas commonly makes the assertion in his seminars that 2/3 of the techniques in the American Kenpo sysytem violate Kenpo principles and concepts.


He does make reference to something close to that statement except I don't think the number is quite that high. 



> He then states it's up to the Kenpo practitioners themselves to find out which ones do.


He is trying to make the students think for themselves. How much does someone actually learn when they are being spoon fed continually? To learn and grow in the art (the more advanced the student is) self discovery stays locked in your thought process than someone just giving you the answers of 30+ years of training, learning, refining, re-learning, etc.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 21, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> Ahha!...... Someone other than me knows the name "Tom Connor". Would somebody please spill the beans and talk a little bit about Mr. Connors? What was he like?
> Don (El Paso)


  Yep, I knew him, Tom II and Tom III.

  Charlotte lives (or used to) about 15 minutes from me.

 This is probably not the thread to talk about Mr. Connor's, besides, Bill Packer or Jay Huff, would be able to tell you way more than me. 

  :asian:


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 21, 2004)

> This is probably not the thread to talk about Mr. Connor's, besides, Bill Packer or Jay Huff, would be able to tell you way more than me.



Okie Dokie    

Ahha!...... Someone other than me knows the name "Jay Huff!"    

Next time I get a chance to just sit with Mr. Packer I'll ask.

It would be nice if we had a bunch of Traco (akka) members and a few seniors that would visit here. I think I know more about the members of other orgs than I do mine. I feel all alone (sad sad song plays about now)  :wah:  

Not really EPAK and not really Tracy...   :idunno: 

 :vu:  :sadsong:  :drinkbeer 

Don (El Paso)


----------



## Sigung86 (Jul 21, 2004)

Actually, the original plan that Tom Connor brought to Kenpo marketing was most successfully used by the Tracy Brothers.  "Kid" Conatser and I (the old man of the dynamic duo) have had a number of discussions on the history and semantics of old Kenpo.  :rofl:

There have been some old Tracy style Black Belts who felt that Tom I was, in fact, a better martial artist than Al Tracy.  It's all pretty subjective.

Dennis and I have also agreed in the past that the Parker Kingdom pretty much owes it's current existence to the Tracy Brothers.  Had they not spread out with the marketing system that they and Tom Connors had, and had they not mentioned Ed Parker, then many of their early green and brown belts wouldn't have gone from Tracy's to Parker's schools for the simple reason that Parker would promote them to Black degrees... And just so you don't think that I'm suggesting that Al, Will and Jim were angels...   There were a few that went the other way too.

It wasn't alll goodness and light in those days.  Parker and the Tracy Brothers were working to build martial empires, and a strong business base.  Fortunately, or perhaps, unfortunately, depending on your pursuasion, the Tracy Brothers are still able to expound their side of the story and SGM Parker, who I have the greatest respect for, is gone.  

But I digress.

Tom Connor went where the opportunity to grow and expand were.  The Tracy Brothers (Al being a degreed accountant) knew a  good thing when they saw it and the rest, as Dennis and I say, is history.

Tom Connor was no more a philanthropist than either Parker or the Tracys.  He was in the art to make a buck.  The Tracy Brothers were in the art to make a buck ... Ed Parker was in the art to make a buck.... Nothing wrong with that however.


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 22, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> Okie Dokie
> 
> Ahha!...... Someone other than me knows the name "Jay Huff!"
> 
> ...



Not to worry Don, I'll buy you a beer, and all the nuts we can eat!

Since you're a Texan, we'll take you in. Gee, this country music is makin me sad too.

BTW, got any change for the jukebox? :uhyeah:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 22, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Not to worry Don, I'll buy you a beer, and all the nuts we can eat!  Since you're a Texan, we'll take you in. Gee, this country music is makin me sad too.  BTW, got any change for the jukebox? :uhyeah:


 Watch out Don.......... he's up to no good!  Next he'll be asking you to go to Taco Cabanna to buy him food!

opcorn::drinkbeer:anic:


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 23, 2004)

> Not to worry Don, I'll buy you a beer, and all the nuts we can eat! Since you're a Texan, we'll take you in. Gee, this country music is makin me sad too. BTW, got any change for the jukebox?



 :ultracool    I'm hanging with da big boys now!   :cheers: 

Yeah I'm a Texan...  :supcool: 

What kinda dues does a Texan pay? Do I have to.... :whip: or ....  :2pistols: somebody?

I've got a few bucks for the Jukebox that I haven't spent on  :ladysman: and :drinkbeer yet! Hey no Kidd Rock... he'll get the place doing....
artyon: Would want anybody to spill the beer you're gonna buy me. 




> Watch out Don.......... he's up to no good! Next he'll be asking you to go to Taco Cabanna to buy him food!



Oh no Texans are to cool to be Taco Cabanna boys! Aren't they?  :anic:

Speaking of Mexican food, I like it :rpo: and some I like to kick it up a notch :flammad: and cool it off with a  :drinkbeer, but not lite beer.   


Don (El Paso)


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 25, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> :ultracool    I'm hanging with da big boys now!   :cheers:
> 
> Yeah I'm a Texan...  :supcool:
> 
> ...



No dues here!

No, we don't want the music too loud, might get some bikers riled up! :anic: 

Pour on the jalepenos,salsa! :cheers:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jul 25, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> :ultracool    I'm hanging with da big boys now!
> Don (El Paso)


 Yeah, Ricardo has picked up a couple of pounds!


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 25, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Yeah, Ricardo has picked up a couple of pounds!




HAVE NOT! I'm still bout the same, but as slow as ever! :boxing:


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 29, 2004)

Sigung86,
Thank you for spilling some of the beans! 

Don (El Paso)


----------



## Gary Crawford (Jul 29, 2004)

I used to study Tracy's a looong time ago,I still practice most of the Kata's and sets.I mainly practice JKD.


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 29, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> I used to study Tracy's a looong time ago,I still practice most of the Kata's and sets.I mainly practice JKD.



With an avatar like that, that seems to be challenging me, whose gonna argue with you?


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 29, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> Sigung86,
> Thank you for spilling some of the beans!
> 
> Don (El Paso)




Uh, wait a minute. That burly looking bartender says he overran your tab. What we gonna do? :idunno:


----------



## Gary Crawford (Jul 29, 2004)

Sorry,I know it's ugly!


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 29, 2004)

I like your avatar Gary!  Can anyone provide a list of all the sets from Tracy's Kenpo?

Thanks,
MJ :asian:


----------



## Gary Crawford (Jul 29, 2004)

Here is a good source of info http://www.tracyskarate.com/beltsystem_Folder/beltreq.htm


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 29, 2004)

Thanks Gary  ...BTW any more bleeding? -vampfeed-


----------



## Gary Crawford (Jul 29, 2004)

OK so far..crossing fingers!


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 29, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> OK so far..crossing fingers!


Thank goodness:angel: ...That's scary stuff!


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 29, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I like your avatar Gary!  Can anyone provide a list of all the sets from Tracy's Kenpo?
> 
> Thanks,
> MJ :asian:



We have some sets, but they are not required, if you look at Master Tracy's requirements.

How else may I be of service to you, my dear!


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 30, 2004)

> Uh, wait a minute. That burly looking bartender says he overran your tab. What we gonna do?



Yep, he sure is a big feller. You don't think he's just standing on some crates behind the bar do you? 

So we ain't drinking until we fix the tab?  :miffer:

Hold my hat, and don't drink what's left of my beer unless you want to fix the tab? 


Don (El Paso)


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 30, 2004)

> I used to study Tracy's a looong time ago,I still practice most of the Kata's and sets.I mainly practice JKD.



Gary,
Has either art influence the way you do the other? Have you exclusively adapted something from one system into the other? 


Don (El Paso)


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 30, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> We have some sets, but they are not required, if you look at Master Tracy's requirements.
> 
> How else may I be of service to you, my dear!


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....well, now that you mention it I am still awaiting my pic :wink2:....


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 30, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....well, now that you mention it I am still awaiting my pic :wink2:....



ya gotta go to my website to see it! :ultracool


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 30, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> ya gotta go to my website to see it! :ultracool


:boing1: Lead the way....


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 30, 2004)

His web site looks good.  


Don (El Paso)


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 30, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> His web site looks good.
> 
> Don (El Paso)


Ok great...  How about a link? :lookie:


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 30, 2004)

Sorry,  :uhyeah: 


Since I can't keep my mouth shut!

Ricardos Site


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 30, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> Sorry, :uhyeah:
> 
> 
> Since I can't keep my mouth shut!
> ...


Thanks for the link!  Great site!  Love the body armor!:knight:


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jul 30, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Thanks for the link!  Great site!


MJ,
stay away from the darkside. Castillo can be evil! He already told you that he was like Darth Vader and will lead you down the wrong path. :asian:


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 30, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> MJ,
> 
> 
> stay away from the darkside. Castillo can be evil! He already told you that he was like Darth Vader and will lead you down the wrong path. :asian:


:duel: It's ok really, I never leave home without the force!!! Besides he's one of my subcontractors....yes, he works for me....:angry:


----------



## Gary Crawford (Jul 30, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> Gary,
> Has either art influence the way you do the other? Have you exclusively adapted something from one system into the other?
> 
> 
> Don (El Paso)


Yes,Kenpo,of course is my base style and will always be part of me,JKD gives me more options.I really like the part of JKD that comes from wing chun.The fencing footwork has been the most difficult thing to apply,so I still end up reverting back to kenpo footwork when sparring.


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 30, 2004)

don bohrer said:
			
		

> Yep, he sure is a big feller. You don't think he's just standing on some crates behind the bar do you?
> 
> So we ain't drinking until we fix the tab?  :miffer:
> 
> ...



Tell you what;you got deal with that biker, and I'll go start the car!


----------



## Gary Crawford (Jul 30, 2004)

How much of a taB DID YA'LL RUN UP?!


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 30, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> How much of a taB DID YA'LL RUN UP?!



It was Happy hour, the rest is history. :deadhorse


----------



## Gary Crawford (Jul 30, 2004)

They said you can throw darts for it....double or nothin!


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jul 30, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> :duel: It's ok really, I never leave home without the force!!! Besides he's one of my subcontractors....yes, he works for me....:angry:



Ok, but you better keep Ricky in line. Kinda like this :whip:


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 30, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Ok, but you better keep Ricky in line. Kinda like this :whip:


OMG LOL funny you should suggest that...check this out... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=255722#post255722


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 30, 2004)

> The fencing footwork has been the most difficult thing to apply,so I still end up reverting back to kenpo footwork when sparring.



Fencing footwork? That makes me think of lunges and side stepping. Could you give some details?


Hey.... where you going Ricardo?  Happy hours still got 10 minutes.

Besides it's payday for Gary! We'll let him hang with us and he can cover our tab.    


 :lurk: 

Don (El Paso)


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 31, 2004)

I copied this into Tracy kenpo since I am an apapted Tracyite now!  :ultracool  



> you are striking Triple Warmer/Heater 12



In our Eagles Beak the first strike to a nerve is between the bicep/tricep. The second is in the arm pit cavity, and the third is the radial nerve along the forearm?

Would anyone care to expain the nerve strikes found in Eagle's Beak, and how better to activate these points? Are there complimentary nerve strikes that make these points work better? What red flags come to mind when executing this technique. Any insites or observations are welcome.

Rob,
Could you expain the Triple Warmer/Heater a bit.

Eagles Beak again.

Eagles Beak​
1. Our left hand traps and pins the opponents hand to our right shoulder. 
2. Step with your left foot away from the opponent into a horse (Straightens the attackers arm).
3. Deliver a verticle middle knuckle strike (thrown like an uppercut) to the nerve between the bicep/tricep. 
4. Drive a straight middle knuckle into the opponents arm pit.

After the middle knuckle strike to the armpit.

5. Circle your right arm downward, out, and over the top of your opponents trapped arm. 
6. Drop your forearm across his bicep (same motion as a downward verticle hammer fist).
7. On contact with his bicep rake your forearm inward and downward toward your chest. 
8. Rebound off your opponents arm with a right sword hand to the side of his throat. 

Any comments on execution and what makes a difficult opponent comply are very welcome indeed.
Don (El paso)


----------



## Rob Broad (Jul 31, 2004)

Those familiar with the Dillman and pressure points, know about 12 meridians.  Triple heater/warmer is one of these meridians.  The point under the bicep is called Triple Warmer 12.  It used in conjunction with other points can have varied effects from shutting down to the arm to knock outs.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jul 31, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> OMG LOL funny you should suggest that...check this out... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=255722#post255722



That was funny. Just be careful as he is deceptive. His power of the darkside is strong. :asian:


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 31, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> That was funny. Just be careful as he is deceptive. His power of the darkside is strong. :asian:


 You seem to know a lot about it. Hmmm.... how would you like a job? " :rtfm: :angry:   

Rob can you describe the other 11 pressure points or post a link with more information?

Thanks,
MJ :asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jul 31, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> You seem to know a lot about it.


He's been wanting me to convert to the darkside for quite some time now.



> Hmmm.... how would you like a job?


Depends on what it is?   



> Rob can you describe the other 11 pressure points or post a link with more information



Well I'm not Rob but I bookmarked this site from the chinese section of MT. Enjoy if it helps.

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp#five


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 31, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> He's been wanting me to convert to the darkside for quite some time now.


_The Force_ must be strong with you my son! :xwing: 




> Depends on what it is?


uhhh..How 'bout? I'll let ya hold the whip....:whip1: 





> Well I'm not Rob but I bookmarked this site from the chinese section of MT. Enjoy if it helps.
> 
> http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp#five


 Very interesting link! Thank you,
MJ :asian:


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 31, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> That was funny. Just be careful as he is deceptive. His power of the darkside is strong. :asian:



You know this to be true, young Jedi. It is also pointless to resist. The Goldendragon cannot save you now. Come, it is the only way.


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 31, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> _The Force_ must be strong with you my son! :xwing:
> 
> 
> uhhh..How 'bout? I'll let ya hold the whip....:whip1:
> ...




And you my fair Princess, join me as well. You will lack for nothing. Even now the Ak er's are thin in numbers. Even you cannot resist the power of the Dark Side. :samurai:


----------



## RCastillo (Jul 31, 2004)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Ok, but you better keep Ricky in line. Kinda like this :whip:



That is good;discipline is good for the soul. :samurai:


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Jul 31, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> And you my fair Princess, join me as well. You will lack for nothing. Even now the Ak er's are thin in numbers. Even you cannot resist the power of the Dark Side. :samurai:


Uhhh hmmmm... all the shrimp I can eat? :lookie:   I'll think on it, but first you must prove your worthiness, share something important about Tracy's Kenpo...really!


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 31, 2004)

> share something important about Tracy's Kenpo...really!



Yes Dark Overlord do tell!  

:asian: 

I've got my thinking cap on too!


Don (El Paso)


----------



## don bohrer (Jul 31, 2004)

Thanks Jason. The site has alot of good information. 

I am wondering if there are notible differences on how the Chinese and Japanese arts approach the use of pressure points? It is a goal of mine to incorporate pressure points into my training. I do think understanding the strikes gives confidence to the why's of techniques. 

When I first started Kenpo I was always thinking why build a tech in this order, why strike a point this way, why use this weapon... wouldn't another be more practical?


Don (El Paso)


----------



## RCastillo (Aug 1, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Uhhh hmmmm... all the shrimp I can eat? :lookie:   I'll think on it, but first you must prove your worthiness, share something important about Tracy's Kenpo...really!



Alot to say, but I'll keep it general.(To avoid stirring up the hornets nest)

A large, and  old established organization. Controversial to many, but being it was based on the teachings of SGM Parker,(who started it all in the USA) and carried forward by Al Tracy, it remains a strong system.

When it comes to Kenpo, you will not find a more controversial subject on this forum(IMHO), much of it centered on recent past. But as an old former NFL coach once said, "The future is now." So that is what I focus on, teaching the system to keep it going, pushing for higher goals, and the responsibility I have toward my students. :asian:


----------



## KenpoTess (Aug 1, 2004)

*Glares at Ricky and puts a protective arm around MJ*

now the topic is what ?


----------



## RCastillo (Aug 1, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> *Glares at Ricky and puts a protective arm around MJ*
> 
> now the topic is what ?



Not to worry my Queen, your position is safe. I knew you would reappear.  Everything is falling into place as I have forseen. :samurai:


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 1, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Alot to say, but I'll keep it general.(To avoid stirring up the hornets nest)
> 
> A large, and old established organization. Controversial to many, but being it was based on the teachings of SGM Parker,(who started it all in the USA) and carried forward by Al Tracy, it remains a strong system.
> 
> When it comes to Kenpo, you will not find a more controversial subject on this forum(IMHO), much of it centered on recent past. But as an old former NFL coach once said, "The future is now." So that is what I focus on, teaching the system to keep it going, pushing for higher goals, and the responsibility I have toward my students. :asian:


That's a wonderful answer! :asian: How about something on the techniques... what's your favorite?  Why?  

Now Darth you _seem_ like an ok guy....if you would just take off your mask please!  :viking1: You can follow this up in the locker room!  



			
				TESS said:
			
		

> ]*Glares at Ricky and puts a protective arm around MJ*


 Tess is so splenderiffic!    I trust only her!


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## RCastillo (Aug 4, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> That's a wonderful answer! :asian: How about something on the techniques... what's your favorite?  Why?
> 
> Now Darth you _seem_ like an ok guy....if you would just take off your mask please!  :viking1: You can follow this up in the locker room!
> 
> Tess is so splenderiffic!    I trust only her!



It would be Kimono Grab. It represents what Kenpo is all about, fluidity, power, physical principles, and pain to the one who would violate another. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 4, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Uhhh hmmmm... all the shrimp I can eat? :lookie:   I'll think on it, but first you must prove your worthiness, share something _*important*_ about Tracy's Kenpo...


 Aaaaa          like, he would know.....


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## RCastillo (Aug 4, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Aaaaa          like, he would know.....



Well,ok, let me add another. Dennis Conatser did the Tracy material too! Finally, out in the open! artyon:


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 4, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Well,ok, let me add another. Dennis Conatser did the Tracy material too! Finally, out in the open! artyon:


   Yes, that's true, but .......... I did move on to Mr. Parker, who took me out of the dark ages. :ultracool


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## mj-hi-yah (Aug 4, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Yes, that's true, but .......... I did move on to Mr. Parker, who took me out of the dark ages. :ultracool


Ok now....this is all beginning to make sense!!!  :duel: :duel:   Green smiley training camp against yellow smiley training camp!  Techniques are all good right?  It's karate darn it why all the fighting???:jediduel:  So Goldendragon 7 what 's your favorite techinique?

BTW Kimono Grab is a good one!  Not my fave but a good one!


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## RCastillo (Aug 4, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Yes, that's true, but .......... I did move on to Mr. Parker, who took me out of the dark ages. :ultracool



But, my young one, the light is beginning to dim somewhat. The path is open to you...........if you dare to chance it. :jediduel:


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## RCastillo (Aug 4, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Ok now....this is all beginning to make sense!!!  :duel: :duel:   Green smiley training camp against yellow smiley training camp!  Techniques are all good right?  It's karate darn it why all the fighting???:jediduel:  So Goldendragon 7 what 's your favorite techinique?
> 
> BTW Kimono Grab is a good one!  Not my fave but a good one!



The Dragon is decietful. Known to all, but all fear him.(Cept me)

Talk about a "RedFlag." :CTF:


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## mj-hi-yah (Aug 4, 2004)

I have no fear!!! :viking2: That's why I wear my protective helmet! Now to give the people back their thread tell me more about it all here! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16252


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 5, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> So Goldendragon 7 what 's your favorite techinique?


 Gee there are so many....but here is a good one... Shield and Sword

 :enguard:


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## mj-hi-yah (Aug 5, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Gee there are so many....but here is a good one... Shield and Sword
> 
> :enguard:


I really like that one it has lots of great kicks :btg: at least how I learned it!
Did you find it difficult to go from Tracy's to EPAK? Were there many differences in how the techniques were taught or in the material itself?  Basically, are the same techniques taught in both systems?


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## Seig (Aug 5, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> And you my fair Princess, join me as well. You will lack for nothing. Even now the Ak er's are thin in numbers. Even you cannot resist the power of the Dark Side. :samurai:


Akers???Thin????Bwahahahahaha


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## Seig (Aug 5, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I really like that one it has lots of great kicks :btg: at least how I learned it!
> Did you find it difficult to go from Tracy's to EPAK? Were there many differences in how the techniques were taught or in the material itself? Basically, are the same techniques taught in both systems?


I know many will not like to heatr this, but here goes. I did the Tracy system for several years, earning my Third. A few years ago I had a split with my instructor. As I began to really research the system, I found a lot of holes in the information. Things I was really looking for. Then I met the Golden One here on MT and for every question he answered, I came up with three more. Some of the techniques are very similiar but what I found to be the main difference is simply this. EPAK techniques run the gamut from simple to sophisticated while the Tracy system went from simple to complicated. Since making the transition, I have found my basics to be stronger, my techniques to be more fluid and dynamic, my overall understanding of American Kenpo increases exponentially every month. From my experience, while the Tracy system is good and fun, it lacks the depth of EPAK.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 5, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I really like that one it has lots of great kicks :btg: at least how I learned it!


It should only have one at least the base technique. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 7, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> The Dragon is decietful. Known to all, but all fear him.
> *(Cept me)*


 hee hee...... Now we all know that I could still "stomp a wart" on your head ... even today....  :whip:


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## Rob Broad (Aug 7, 2004)

Jason

Thank you for posting the link.  I was on vacation after my last post in this thread, and did not get back til yesterday Aug 6th.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 7, 2004)

No problem Rob, as I stated earlier that someone in the chinese section posted it quite a while back I just bookmarked it for future reference. It has quite a few good things on it.


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## Trejo (Apr 30, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Who studies, studied or has interest in Tracy's Kenpo?


 I did a seminar with Al Tracy and I found it very informative and he knows a lot of history about Kenpo.


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## Sigung86 (Apr 30, 2005)

Wow!  Funny to see this thread is still active.  My post,waaaayyyy back, about 3 or 4 pages, was the one that, apparently, ticked off Ted Sumner and, perhaps some others (according to my abrupt and rather one-sided conversaton with Al), and got me booted from the Wonderful World of Tracy.

Neat stuff! artyon:


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## rmcpeek (Apr 30, 2005)

I both study and teach Tracy's Kenpo. 

Rich
www.usasdc.com


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