# Kung fu in MMA Wins



## JowGaWolf (Sep 5, 2021)

It's about time, but not really.  I always knew this kick was bad news.  Straight out of the Kung Fu Manual.  Kung Fu gets a bad image, but there is some really dangerous end game type stuff in there.  Sucks to have that knee blown out like that.  Hopefully it's not career ending


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## Hanzou (Sep 5, 2021)

That kick can be found in numerous striking systems. Considering that Roundtree has trained in Muay Thai for over a decade, it's fair to say that he more than likely picked up that technique from that discipline.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 5, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That kick can be found in numerous striking systems.


Including kung fu.  

My comment wasn't that it wasn't in numerous striking systems.


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## Hanzou (Sep 5, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Including kung fu.
> 
> My comment wasn't that it wasn't in numerous striking systems.



Your comment is implying that this guy is a Kung Fu practitioner utilizing a Kung Fu technique. Again, Roundtree is a longtime Muay Thai practitioner, so it is doubtful that he has ever trained in Kung Fu, or picked up this technique from Kung Fu.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 5, 2021)

It's just kind of side kick to the knee. Seen it in UFC a few times. We learn it in Tae Kwon Do. During the fight, you cannot time everything perfectly, even if you kick the bag 100 times, they all look a little different. In the picture, the toes were higher than the heel, that just show the side kick is not fully pivot and extended, nothing unusual.

More Common is step kick of Wing Chun to the knee used in UFC, you see it on every show. Faster, might not kick as hard, but hard enough and a lot faster.


EDIT: I forgot, in the picture, it looks to be *front leg side kick*, not exactly traditional Tae, Kwon Do. Bruce Lee made those side and round kicks famous coming from the lead leg. We practice front leg side and round kicks more so than from the back leg as it's a lot faster.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 5, 2021)

I was exercising just now, now it's too late to edit.

This is the clip of Bruce Lee fight with Chuck Norris. You can see at 5:46, that's the front leg side kick to the knee. At 5:27, it's Wing Chun front step kick to the knee. This is much more common in UFC. It's very effective.






For cause, it's much prettier in the movie. In real fight, it's sloppier.

I am still amaze watching Bruce Lee 48 years after he died and the MA evolved so much since. His speed is still amazing. Watch this clip, the speed really showed. I must have watched this clip over 40 times, I do not detect any speeding up in filming by looking at the surrounding and the small movements. Don't believe me, record your own practice and see. You might be in for a brutal awakening. To me, the two most influential people in MA scene in the last 50 years are Bruce Lee and Royce Gracie. These two change how people look at MA.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am still amaze watching Bruce Lee 48 years after he died and the MA evolved so much since. His speed is still amazing. Watch this clip, the speed really showed. Don't believe me, record your own practice and see. You might be in for a brutal awakening.


When Bruce Lee was still alive, if you open a MA school and you can't perform his favor triple kicks combo, you won't be able to get any students.





When someone walked into your school, the first question that he would ask was, "Can you kick the light ball?"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am still amaze watching Bruce Lee 48 years after he died and the MA evolved so much since. His speed is still amazing. Watch this clip, the speed really showed. I must have watched this clip over 40 times, I do not detect any speeding up in filming by looking at the surrounding and the small movements. Don't believe me, record your own practice and see. You might be in for a brutal awakening.


When Bruce was still alive, to be able to reach to his speed level was always my goal.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 5, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's about time, but not really.  I always knew this kick was bad news.  Straight out of the Kung Fu Manual.  Kung Fu gets a bad image, but there is some really dangerous end game type stuff in there.  Sucks to have that knee blown out like that.  Hopefully it's not career ending
> 
> View attachment 27231




That's an A-Hole move and not necessary in Combat Sports.

Karate, etc., all have that.  It's an easy kick that can be easily spammed. 

Just goes to show that MMA is the most brutal and most realistic of all the Combat Sports, but this is just not the right thing to do against another guy who's trying to make the same living.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 5, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Your comment is implying that this guy is a Kung Fu practitioner utilizing a Kung Fu technique. Again, Roundtree is a longtime Muay Thai practitioner, so it is doubtful that he has ever trained in Kung Fu, or picked up this technique from Kung Fu.



He was also praising Tiger Muay Thai for upping his game tremendously after spending a lot of time there in Thailand; then coming back and started winning with noticeable fashion afterward.

From watching him on his season of The Ultimate Fighter, he's a very nice guy. But this kick, I think he made an A-hole decision. Notice how he didn't even come over to say sorry to the other guy, probably b/c he's embarrassed of that kick and feels really bad. 1 of his cornerman even came over and hugged the other fighter, but Roundtree didn't (which is not like him, unless there was some serious bad blood or something). I could be wrong though.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 5, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> From watching him on his season of The Ultimate Fighter, he's a very nice guy. But this kick, I think he made an A-hole decision. Notice how he didn't even come over to say sorry to the other guy, probably b/c he's embarrassed of that kick and feels really bad. 1 of his cornerman even came over and hugged the other fighter, but Roundtree didn't (which is not like him, unless there was some serious bad blood or something). I could be wrong though.


Ahhh so you caught on to the strange victory tone as well.  it reminded me of someone who doesn't have good control of a strike.  Instead of admitting that, they act as if it was intentional.  His statement at the end is a strange answer.  It could be him, but that's a strange response to the question.  Which makes me think that he was probably aiming at the lower thigh.  I bet he was thinking more along the lines of damaging the thigh and not the blowing up the knee.

It was almost like he was saying that he positioning himself for  " I wasn't trying to damage his knee.  I don't train that kick the way it was thrown in competition, because I want my sparring partners to be safe."

If it's a legal move in MMA then it's hard for it to be an A-hole move.  If I had round house kicks that were strong enough to break arms and legs, then that's the power level I will be using in a competition where your opponent doesn't mind pounding your face into a bloody mess.   If they think it's an A-hole move then they can simply ban it.   Just because they try to make the fight with as few rules as possible doesn't mean that they should.  That's on them.

I don't know too many people in this forum that would allow kicks to the knee.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 5, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know too many people in this forum that would allow kicks to the knee.


In long fist training that you try to kick my knee and I also try to kick your knee is a very basic training. The moment that you land your foot, the moment that I can kick your knee. If you can pull your leg back fast enough, you can kick my knee back.

Is it less civilized than to punch your opponent's head? I don't think so. Of course we are talking about combat and not sport.

Here is the long fist chain kicks training:


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 5, 2021)

I’ve seen fighters land that kick repeatedly with solid contact and not inflict serious damage. I think the difference is that in those cases the recipient’s leg was properly braced and the knee was pointed at an angle where it could flex or extend to absorb the impact.

In this case, the fighter who got injured had his leg planted at the worst possible angle relative to the angle the kick came in at. This resulted in the sort of injury that people often predict will result from side kicks to the knee, but which doesn’t actually occur that frequently.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 5, 2021)

To force your opponent's knee to bend side way is the issue. 

During the old day, people use this kind of move to cause serious damage against unfriendly challengers. This is why a challenger has to take the risk because he doesn't know what his opponent may do to him.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I’ve seen fighters land that kick repeatedly with solid contact and not inflict serious damage. I think the difference is that in those cases the recipient’s leg was properly braced and the knee was pointed at an angle where it could flex or extend to absorb the impact.
> 
> In this case, the fighter who got injured had his leg planted at the worst possible angle relative to the angle the kick came in at. This resulted in the sort of injury that people often predict will result from side kicks to the knee, but which doesn’t actually occur that frequently.


Only time will tell.  I would be curious to know how long he trained this kick.  People tend to learn striking function before they learn striking control.  First the student learns how to land a kick on the target, then they learn how to control it.  Or maybe that's just the way I teach it lol.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ahhh so you caught on to the strange victory tone as well.  it reminded me of someone who doesn't have good control of a strike.  Instead of admitting that, they act as if it was intentional.  His statement at the end is a strange answer.  It could be him, but that's a strange response to the question.  Which makes me think that he was probably aiming at the lower thigh.  I bet he was thinking more along the lines of damaging the thigh and not the blowing up the knee.
> 
> It was almost like he was saying that he positioning himself for  " I wasn't trying to damage his knee.  I don't train that kick the way it was thrown in competition, because I want my sparring partners to be safe."



Right?  He's a very nice guy. On TUF, he was saying about how he used to weight 300+ lbs in his teens and got bullied a lot.  He was the guy usually breaking up the fights between their coaches, haha. 



JowGaWolf said:


> If it's a legal move in MMA then it's hard for it to be an A-hole move.  If I had round house kicks that were strong enough to break arms and legs, then that's the power level I will be using in a competition where your opponent doesn't mind pounding your face into a bloody mess.   If they think it's an A-hole move then they can simply ban it.   Just because they try to make the fight with as few rules as possible doesn't mean that they should.  That's on them.
> 
> I don't know too many people in this forum that would allow kicks to the knee.



It's just not sporty = A-hole, IMO.  Getting your face pounded into a bloody mess, is not that bad in comparison to getting your knee blown out like that which could be a career ender.  Your face/head will recover & usually the Ref will save you in time. While this 1 kick is all it takes. This will take him out for 12 months at least, and another 6 months for him to get back to the skill  & aggression that he was at....so no UFC income for all that time; while his competition are climbing the UFC ladder.

I didn't catch the part where he said that he was going for the thigh = sporty, so I believe him; b/c again, he doesn't seem to be the kind who'd do that, knowing full well of the dangers of that kick.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> While this 1 kick is all it takes. This will take him out for 12 months at least, and another 6 months for him to get back to the skill & aggression that he was at....so no UFC income for all that time; while his competition are climbing the UFC ladder.


Well if they don't ban the kick then all of the fighters should start learning how to defend against it since it's fair game.  Time will tell.  Once you blow out your knee it really isn't like it used to be depending on what is torn or broken.   After the match Bukauska said his leg was broken. We'll know once the xrays and mri scans come out.

I don't know if this guy is a doctor or not.  But this is what he thinks happened.  I personally think it will be longer.  Heal times varies based on the level that you are trying to get back to.  Are you just trying to work or are you trying to get back to a level of activity that puts a lot of stress on that area of the knee.







jayoliver00 said:


> I didn't catch the part where he said that he was going for the thigh = sporty


Oh he didn't say that.  I was saying that's where that kick usually lands when you don't want to blow someone's knee out.  So if you train this kick you'll  throw this kick higher up.  Which is why I'm thinking that he made the statement about not training the kick the way that he threw it and with the intent that he threw it.  He probably meant to kick the leg, because that's what he did.  He probably just didn't intend for it to result in that, because most fighters who get kicked in the leg like that don't suffer the same injury.   Most fighters who get kick in the leg like that are usually advancing and not punching.  When you advance your foot points forward and that offers protection structure wise.  But when you advance and punch at the same time the legs takes a different structure.  In terms of the quality of strike.  Grade A++++  perfect timing against the punch.   If you want to teach self defense then that's the video clip you show of an effective strike to the leg.  But if that's not your intent for that to happen then it's a D+.  That means your opponent moved in a way that made the kick worse than what it is, or you haven't fully understand this kick and kicked when you probably shouldn't in terms of protecting another fighter, but then again.  it's legal and the entire point of Professional fighting is to hurt your opponent.  So there's that contra diction.  But back to the kick.  

But if he didn't intend to for the to have that result, then it's probably his lack of experience with controlling the kick that resulted in the injury.  We'll know for sure in his future fights where we can watch if he decides to continue using that kick.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> It's just not sporty = A-hole, IMO.


I agree with you on that.  There's fighting and there's gladiator sports.   Just because MMA has the fewest set of rules doesn't mean that some of the risker dangerous techniques should be allowed.  When I spar with people, I only allow those type of leg kicks with people who have good control because that kick can be damaging even at lower power levels.  It doesn't take much to damage the knee.  People have damaged their knees with less.


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## paitingman (Sep 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Only time will tell.  I would be curious to know how long he trained this kick.  People tend to learn striking function before they learn striking control.  First the student learns how to land a kick on the target, then they learn how to control it.  Or maybe that's just the way I teach it lol.


I'm also curious to know how much time he has spent training this kick.

I know some TKD practitioners who are good with this kick as well. 
This kick really can have nasty results in SD scenario when people are standing more regular and less squared off.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2021)

Like I said before in detail *in post #6 *already. This is nothing more than a front leg side kick to the knee!!! We learned this in Tae Kwon Do class in the 80s. I even show in detail Bruce Lee used that in "Way of the Dragon". Go watch the video at the precise time I wrote in post #6.

You know, in real life, nothing is precise like demonstration. The distance is NOT constant as opponent moves around. If the target moves forward when you initiate the side kick, the kick lands *before* you get the full pivot and it will look like in the picture that the toe is higher than the keel. If you have enough distance to have full pivot, then you will easily see it is just a simple side kick to the knee.

It's just that simple. Just simple Tae Kwon Do side kick to the knee!!! If you want to learn front leg side and round kick, just watch the video of Bruce Lee, He pretty much started the front leg step in side and round kicks. My school really learned all these from Lee. We were trained to do that over the traditional back leg round and side kick.

If you still have question, watch this:





This video pretty much cover ALL the leg kicks used in UFC. Remember, Tae Kwon Do kicks are the main technique used in MMA. I am even surprised I start to see spin hook kick and even hammer kicks in UFC.


I don't want to have more rules in UFC, in fact I want less rules. People that don't want to get injure should not join UFC. Right now as is, the rules favor grapplers like you cannot strike the back of the head. During the tackle, the back of the head is always right there, if you can strike the back of the head, people will think twice before attempt take down. UFC is not for the faint of heart.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You know, in real life, nothing is precise like demonstration. The distance is NOT constant as opponent moves around. If the target moves forward when you initiate the side kick, the kick lands *before* you get the full pivot and it will look like in the picture that the toe is higher than the keel. If you have enough distance to have full pivot, then you will easily see it is just a simple side kick to the knee.


You' would be surprise at how accurate you can be when dealing with moving components and changing distances.  All combat sports have examples of well timed punches that are accurate and intentional.  In comparison to what other's do. Landing a punch or kick where you want it is much easier.






Fairly consistent accuracy here.





I don't know of any sport that requires precision as much as basketball.  No look passes must not only get to your team mate but it must be able to avoid capture or interference by other team mates.  They not only calculate distance and speed from the same team they also calculate the movements from the other team.  

Our brains are extremely amazing don't sell yours short.  If you keep thinking that precision in fighting isn't possible then your fighting skills will suffer.  If you don't think precision is possible then you should abandon martial arts because the only other side to precision is, randomly swing your arms and kick your legs and hope you hit something.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2021)

Not if your opponent is as fast if not faster than you!!! You watch UFC fights? Their footwork and back and fore speed is incredible. It's easy if you have time to judge the target, you don't!!!

You can insist they have some secret kicks and you can insist that you can time it perfectly every time. All I can say is just a simple front leg side kick to the knee. This, I have experience, this is Tae Kwon Do that I had been in it for almost 3 years. We learn all those.


What you show are all COORDINATED moves, the basketball hoop is stationary. You practice and it's going to be the same every time. In UFC fights, everything is unpredictable. Look at their foot work, how fast they move around, forward-backward, side to side. They developed that kind of footwork no other MA has and it's amazing.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2021)

I think what happened was a very unfortunate even. Normal if the people didn't step up, the side kick is not as damaging. It must be perfect timing one did the side kick to the knee, the other happened to step in for an attack, so the kick met the knee with speed combining both movement and break the knee.

I had it once to the ribs. During sparring, the guy did a step in side kick while I step in to punch, my ribs was open, moving forward and I got kicked. I couldn't even laugh for two weeks. He did not intend to even touch me, I stepped forward and met his leg full force.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Here is another video showing knee kicks in UFC. I don't know why it calls Wing Chun kicks. Yes, one is Wing Chun, I described in post #6 already, just a front step kick to the knee. The other one that is side kick to the knee is NOT Wing Chun. I learn some Wing Chun before, NEVER have I seen they using side kick to the knee. It's just simple TKD side kick.





If you listen to the commentator, they call that sidekick to the knee every time also.

This is what I called front leg (step in) side kick. The video called SKIPPING front leg side kick. This is what is being used to kick to the knee. Just a low step in(hop in) side kick:




You can see the side kicks of the guy sometimes have the toes higher than the heel. The girl always have the toe higher than the heel. Just happen when the hip does not turn enough and the pivot is not complete. it is common enough. Nobody is perfect, it's easy to talk only.

It's not too common to do back leg side kick now a days, way way too slow.


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## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Here is another video showing knee kicks in UFC. I don't know why it calls Wing Chun kicks. Yes, one is Wing Chun, I described in post #6 already, just a front step kick to the knee. The other one that is side kick to the knee is NOT Wing Chun. I learn some Wing Chun before, NEVER have I seen they using side kick to the knee. It's just simple TKD side kick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People claim this as "Kung Fu" because deep down they realize that it's problematic that Kung fu is pretty much absent from MMA. Despite decades of believing otherwise, the MMA "fad" has yet to subside, and is slowly eating away at traditional martial arts.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> People claim this as "Kung Fu" because deep down they realize that it's problematic that Kung fu is pretty much absent from MMA. Despite decades of believing otherwise, the MMA "fad" has yet to subside, and is* slowly eating away* at traditional martial arts.


Good morning Hanzou

I have to have the colonoscopy this morning and I have to get up this early to drink all the crap!!! 

 "Slowly eating away"?!! I think they almost disappeared in a few months?!! So far, the Wing Chun front step kick is the only thing of Kung Fu that is used that I can recognize. I am still waiting for one style that can make it to pay-per-view in MMA fights USING IT's OWN STYLE( not fight like MMA).

MMA, hands are all boxing, kicks are almost all Tae Kwon Do. Grappling are BJJ and wrestling. Then of cause knee and elbow from Muy Thai. Kung Fu literally disappeared after UFC 3. I don't know how many times I watched the first few UFC, they were eye opening and stunning. UFC is very practical, if you win, they follow and learn. Look at Royce Gracie single handily put BJJ onto the map because he whooped everyone's butt in UFC 1and 2. Too bad he was injured and had to forfeit in UFC 3. Those days, they fight all the fights in one day. Any style can audition in UFC, everyone has the same opportunity, you just have to win.

I grew up in Hong Kong and I was still there when Bruce Lee died. Did they hate Bruce Lee because Lee was pretty much the first one that combine different MA and only choose what is actually useful. He combine boxing hands, a little Wing Chun and all Tae Kwon Do kicks + Wing Chun front step kick. Men, when Lee was alive, they were quiet as a mouse, then right after Lee died, they all came out and said they can beat Lee.

I want to specify, I am a Chinese from Hong Kong!!! It's not easy for me to say all these.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> People claim this as "Kung Fu" because deep down they realize that it's problematic that Kung fu is pretty much absent from MMA. Despite decades of believing otherwise, the MMA "fad" has yet to subside, and is slowly eating away at traditional martial arts.


Is the technique in kung fu? If the answer is yes then it is a valid kung fu technique.  Is the technique in muay thai? If so the technique is a valid technique.  A technique doesn't have to be uniquely part of a system to be part of a system. 

Was this technique taught in traditional martial arts including Kung fu before MMA existed? Yes.  I've seen this same kick in traditional Chinese and Japanese  systems. Do you really think Ufc created this kick? Out of all th numerous kicks in kung fu, do you really think they didn't know such a simple kick?

If it's taught in kung fu then it's a valid kung fu technique.  If the same technique is taught in muay thai then it's  a valid Muay Thai technique.

Just because the technique is in multiple systems doesn't mean it voids it from that system.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am still waiting for one style that can make it to pay-per-view in MMA fights USING IT's OWN STYLE( not fight like MMA).


I'm not sure what you expect to see.  There's no rule in Jow Ga kung fu that says that I have to throw a Jow Ga combination.  I can just front kick, jab, hook,  cover, block, side kick separately.  These are techniques found in Jow ga so these same techniques could technically be called Jow Ga. I'm personally more picky about my applications so I try to use more of the unique techniques and combos.  But yeah. If I want to do a front kick to the ribs or side kick to the.  Those are things that have been trained in Jow ga since the it's creation.  

Maybe you want to see some of the unique stuff from Kung fu. My guess is that you already have but just don't realize it.  For example you have already seen shadowless kicking techniques being effectively used in MMA.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure what you expect to see.  There's no rule in Jow Ga kung fu that says that I have to throw a Jow Ga combination.  I can just front kick, jab, hook,  cover, block, side kick separately.  These are techniques found in Jow ga so these same techniques could technically be called Jow Ga. I'm personally more picky about my applications so I try to use more of the unique techniques and combos.  But yeah. If I want to do a front kick to the ribs or side kick to the.  Those are things that have been trained in Jow ga since the it's creation.
> 
> Maybe you want to see some of the unique stuff from Kung fu. My guess is that you already have but just don't realize it.  For example you have already seen shadowless kicking techniques being effectively used in MMA.


I don't know Jow Ga,

 I never seen Chinese kung fu have side kick and round kick. I have seen so many different styles, Choy Le Fut, Monkey, white crane, white brow, different Shaolin, Prey Mentas, Dragon and many others. Most chinese kung fu front kick with the heel( I am not saying it's bad, actually it's better as the heel is stronger than the ball of the feet). Remember, I was in Hong Kong, I've seen enough demonstration of different kung fu in real life and on tv as they have different people came on all the time.

Before Bruce Lee first came on to the scene, nobody use side kick and round kick. when Bruce Lee first appeared, it was BIG NEWS and stunning in Hong Kong and shaked up the whole MA scene. So it is NOT like kung fu had all the kicks all along. Then the punching, it's all different, nothing like boxing hands. That's the reason those "masters" were so mad and jealous of Bruce Lee. All of a sudden, you see all the round and side kicks used in the movies. You almost never seen those before Bruce Lee. So no, I don't think Kung fu has side or round kicks, particular high kicks like TKD.

Remember, I live there for 20 years, when Bruce Lee was in Hong Kong. We saw a lot of stuff from China also. This is nothing new to me. Kung Fu was very popular. My grand father on my mother side was master of some sort in China( I never met him).


And yes, if anyone want to claim their style, they have to fight with their style and win. Just like Royce Gracie WON with BJJ, no doubt about it. That's the reason BJJ is so popular around the world and you can find school everywhere. We definitely have Gracie BJJ in the bayarea. One cannot claim their own style and fight exactly like MMA.


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## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Is the technique in kung fu? If the answer is yes then it is a valid kung fu technique.  Is the technique in muay thai? If so the technique is a valid technique.  A technique doesn't have to be uniquely part of a system to be part of a system.
> 
> Was this technique taught in traditional martial arts including Kung fu before MMA existed? Yes.  I've seen this same kick in traditional Chinese and Japanese  systems. Do you really think Ufc created this kick? Out of all th numerous kicks in kung fu, do you really think they didn't know such a simple kick?
> 
> ...



The answer is no. The person performing the kick didn't learn that kick in Kung Fu, he learned it in Muay Thai. Thus the delivery system, the target area, the timing, the set up, etc. Are entirely from that discipline.

I'm sure that particular kick is taught in Kung Fu, but if you've never taken Kung Fu, then you're not doing Kung Fu when you're performing the technique. It is incredibly dishonest to say that what we're seeing is a fighter utilizing Kung Fu in a MMA context.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> So no, I don't think Kung fu has side or round kicks, particular high kicks like TKD.


Except that we do.


Alan0354 said:


> And yes, if anyone want to claim their style, they have to fight with their style and win. Just like Royce Gracie WON with BJJ, no doubt about it. That's the reason BJJ is so popular around the world and you can find school everywhere. We definitely have Gracie BJJ in the bayarea. One cannot claim their own style and fight exactly like MMA.


See, this is where it is clear to me that you don’t have much depth In your understanding of martial arts.  What system a person practices does not dictate what it looks like when one fights.  The system is a training methodology.  That may “look like” something, may have a signature appearance for the style.  But that falls away when someone fights.   Fighting can look like anything.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Except that we do.
> 
> See, this is where it is clear to me that you don’t have much depth In your understanding of martial arts.  What system a person practices does not dictate what it looks like when one fights.  The system is a training methodology.  That may “look like” something, may have a signature appearance for the style.  But that falls away when someone fights.   Fighting can look like anything.


You know, it's ok to copy what is practical from other style. If Tae Kwon Do kicks are superior, go copy from them and use it. Just don't claim it's theirs originally.

I've seen enough, MA is very big in Hong Kong and China at least 50 years ago. I have friends that were quite deep into different styles and they show me enough. They are NOTHING like MMA.

As I said, it's nothing wrong to learn what is good from other styles, just don't say it's yours.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You know, it's ok to copy what is practical from other style. If Tae Kwon Do kicks are superior, go copy from them and use it. Just don't claim it's theirs originally.
> 
> I've seen enough, MA is very big in Hong Kong and China at least 50 years ago. I have friends that were quite deep into different styles and they show me enough. They are NOTHING like MMA.
> 
> As I said, it's nothing wrong to learn what is good from other styles, just don't say it's yours.


Sorry, we have side kicks and roundhouse kicks.  Apparently this is simply outside your realm of experience.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know Jow Ga,
> 
> I never seen Chinese kung fu have side kick and round kick. I have seen so many different styles, Choy Le Fut, Monkey, white crane, white brow, different Shaolin, Prey Mentas, Dragon and many others. Most chinese kung fu front kick with the heel( I am not saying it's bad, actually it's better as the heel is stronger than the ball of the feet). Remember, I was in Hong Kong, I've seen enough demonstration of different kung fu in real life and on tv as they have different people came on all the time.
> 
> ...


Kung fu has side kicks.  I don't know why you didn't see it.  I've seen the side kick in northern the Northern Shaolin system. Recently saw a shaolin monk side kick someone in the face.  Jow ga kung fu.  We actually have in our forms.  Jow Ga is a mix of 3 systems.   Northern shaolin, Hung Ga, and Choy li fut.   
Even though you lived in China it wouldn't  mean you were exposed to kung fu systems that have side kicks.  Even Bruce Lee had a side kick.


----------



## CB Jones (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am still waiting for one style that can make it to pay-per-view in MMA fights USING IT's OWN STYLE( not fight like MMA).



Curious....how does one fight like MMA?


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Well if they don't ban the kick then all of the fighters should start learning how to defend against it since it's fair game.  Time will tell.  Once you blow out your knee it really isn't like it used to be depending on what is torn or broken.   After the match Bukauska said his leg was broken. We'll know once the xrays and mri scans come out.



True. I throw the oblique kick version of this a lot and to the thigh. But very light and precise, just to control distance. If I wanted to land right on the knee & blow it out, it's pretty easy. But when someone who I don't know, throw this with a lot of force, then it's on; unless they say they were sorry & didn't mean it to be that hard. I have a good defense/return for it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Sorry, we have side kicks and roundhouse kicks.  Apparently this is simply outside your realm of experience.


Yeah that was a strange comment to me about the round house and side kick. I heard some kung fu teachers say that about round house kicks in kung fu but that was specific to one system and you had to go pretty far back for that to apply for that system.  But low iron broom kicks to the leg were there with southern systems. 
The fact that there are kung fu defenses to round house kick makes me believe that round house kicks were being done hence the reason the defense and counters to round house kicks are there to begin with.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 7, 2021)

Seriously folks...

The fact that this has happened a grand total of one time over 26 years and hundreds of thousands of attempts is hardly a sparkling review for the efficacy of the technique. 

This is a unicorn.


----------



## CB Jones (Sep 7, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Seriously folks...
> 
> The fact that this has happened a grand total of one time over 26 years and hundreds of thousands of attempts is hardly a sparkling review for the efficacy of the technique.
> 
> This is a unicorn.



Shat happens in fights.

Side kicks can cause injuries to your opponent......just like every other technique.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> The answer is no. The person performing the kick didn't learn that kick in Kung Fu,


I didn't ask what he was trained in.  I asked if the technique was found in kung fu.


----------



## Steve (Sep 7, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> People claim this as "Kung Fu" because deep down they realize that it's problematic that Kung fu is pretty much absent from MMA. Despite decades of believing otherwise, the MMA "fad" has yet to subside, and is slowly eating away at traditional martial arts.



I'm actually surprised there isn't more san shou crossover.  Cung Le started in MMA too late in his career to make a huge impact, but he certainly earned a spot in the elite ranks.  And san shou, in my opinion, demonstrates that kung fu is largely a victim of its training model.  

@JowGaWolf would seem to be an example of someone who can modify the training model and make the style practical, as well.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Seriously folks...
> 
> The fact that this has happened a grand total of one time over 26 years and hundreds of thousands of attempts is hardly a sparkling review for the efficacy of the technique.
> 
> This is a unicorn.


But it is happening more now than before.  Big wheel punches, oblique kicks. As fighters are getting used to the common techniques, we start to see them look for new techniques that people aren't used to dealing with.  Nothing unicorn about it.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 7, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Seriously folks...
> 
> The fact that this has happened a grand total of one time over 26 years and hundreds of thousands of attempts is hardly a sparkling review for the efficacy of the technique.
> 
> This is a unicorn.





JowGaWolf said:


> But it is happening more now than before.  Big wheel punches, oblique kicks. As fighters are getting used to the common techniques, we start to see them look for new techniques that people aren't used to dealing with.  Nothing unicorn about it.


The technique has been used plenty in MMA and has proven effective. Heck, it's one of the classic Gracie jiu-jitsu techniques that was used back at the dawn of MMA. I was teaching it in my BJJ class just last week.

What's unusual is getting a serious injury as a result. Usually it just works to stop an opponent's advance, inflict some pain, and get the opponent worried about defending their low line. The potential for injury is there, but it generally only happens when the opponent's leg is planted the wrong way to receive the kick.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> I'm actually surprised there isn't more san shou crossover.  Cung Le started in MMA too late in his career to make a huge impact, but he certainly earned a spot in the elite ranks.  And san shou, in my opinion, demonstrates that kung fu is largely a victim of its training model.
> 
> @JowGaWolf would seem to be an example of someone who can modify the training model and make the style practical, as well.


BJJ took a strong hold for a long time. The stand up game came back once fighters became more successful in escaping the grappling submission attempt.  They do a much better job with staying off the ground.  

I think we will see San shou crossover occur with the increased striking that we see. At least I hope we see it.  I'm with you about Cung Le.  Bad timing as he entered at the end of his fighting career.  It appeared to be more of."yeah I can do this" and less "I'm going to dominate MMA"  He didn't have much of a challenge and MMA was that next level for him.  He did it and was satisfied.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What's unusual is getting a serious injury as a result. Usually it just works to stop an opponent's advance, inflict some pain, and get the opponent worried about defending their low line.


I was never taught that it was used to kick just used to keep distance.  People look at the front kick the same way as just something to keep distance.  In Jow ga kung side kicks to the knee were always taught from the understanding that you are trying to destroy the knee.

This doesn't mean you can't use it to keep distance. But in self-defense  a stranger or enemy attacking you blow that knee out.  Once it's gone your attacker has no ability to attack you, unless it's with a gun.

But that's the same mindset that says hitting someone with a brick or chair is acceptable.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Sorry, we have side kicks and roundhouse kicks.  Apparently this is simply outside your realm of experience.


Then you should complain to Olympic comity. Telling them TKD does not represent their specialize kick. That your style do that two. Then let the historians find out the truth.

Those kind of kicks are the hallmark for TKD, that's the reason THEY are the one that is being recognized. You can claim whatever you want to claim, But TKD has schools AROUND THE WORLD. 

Ha ha, maybe they manage to fool the world that those are their signature kicks. Maybe they stole it from Kung Fu.

That's one thing, there is so so much BS from those kung fu community, and they keep getting the butts whoop. Sorry. I remember they talk and talk, they had competitions in Asia, DID MUY THAI WHOOP THEIR BUTTS.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> BJJ took a strong hold for a long time. The stand up game came back once fighters became more successful in escaping the grappling submission attempt.  They do a much better job with staying off the ground.
> 
> I think we will see San shou crossover occur with the increased striking that we see. At least I hope we see it.  I'm with you about Cung Le.  Bad timing as he entered at the end of his fighting career.  It appeared to be more of."yeah I can do this" and less "I'm going to dominate MMA"  He didn't have much of a challenge and MMA was that next level for him.  He did it and was satisfied.


That's how the modern MA are, they learn from each other, they improve. NOT LIKE those kung fu. When kung fu got their butt handed to them, they make excuses " I don't want to use it as it's too deadly"!!  " I don't want to use it because it's our secret". All the excuses and excuses.

You really need to live in Hong Kong and China to hear all the BS from those so called masters.

This is 21century, people actually open their eyes to learn what's work and what's BS. Like MMA, they put their ego aside, when they see something good, they learn it. That's why they call MMA, just pick the ones that work.........TKD kicks( yes TKD kicks, not chinese kicks), Boxing hands, Muy Thai elbows and knees, Gracie BJJ and wrestling. Nothing learning from monkey scratching their hand in the middle of the fight. Nothing wobbling around pretend to be drunk during the fight. Modern fighting arts cut out all those BS.

Martial Arts is the ART of kicking butts. You want grace and beauty, learn ballet.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Curious....how does one fight like MMA?


Watch UFC, they use boxing hands to punch, Muy Thai elbows and knee, TKD kicks and Gracie BJJ and wrestling for grappling and ground work. It can be chased back to the origin.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Sorry, we have side kicks and roundhouse kicks.  Apparently this is simply outside your realm of experience.


Maybe in recent years, maybe they started to wise up and humble enough to start incorporate into their style after being butt kicked. Sure not from 50 years ago.

Maybe if you are an historian, get your proof, go challenge the Olympic commity and claim they should not call the TKD competition but  whatever the name of your style. Proof you have the goods. SIMPLE.

Far as the rest of the world, those are TKD kicks.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong to learn from TKD because their kicks work and kicked a lot of butts.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> I'm actually surprised there isn't more san shou crossover.  Cung Le started in MMA too late in his career to make a huge impact, but he certainly earned a spot in the elite ranks.  And san shou, in my opinion, demonstrates that kung fu is largely a victim of its training model.
> 
> @JowGaWolf would seem to be an example of someone who can modify the training model and make the style practical, as well.



the lack of ground fighting pretty much murders it in the crib in terms of crossover potential.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't ask what he was trained in.  I asked if the technique was found in kung fu.



You can’t say it’s a “Kung fu kick” if the guy using it isn’t using Kung Fu.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 7, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> People claim this as "Kung Fu" because deep down they realize that it's problematic that Kung fu is pretty much absent from MMA. Despite decades of believing otherwise, the MMA "fad" has yet to subside, and is slowly eating away at traditional martial arts.



It is going to hurt when people realise MMA does kung fu better.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 7, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The technique has been used plenty in MMA and has proven effective. Heck, it's one of the classic Gracie jiu-jitsu techniques that was used back at the dawn of MMA. I was teaching it in my BJJ class just last week.
> 
> What's unusual is getting a serious injury as a result. Usually it just works to stop an opponent's advance, inflict some pain, and get the opponent worried about defending their low line. The potential for injury is there, but it generally only happens when the opponent's leg is planted the wrong way to receive the kick.



Which can also happen if you get round kicked and are twisting the wrong way.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Steve said:


> I'm actually surprised there isn't more san shou crossover.  Cung Le started in MMA too late in his career to make a huge impact, but he certainly earned a spot in the elite ranks.  And san shou, in my opinion, demonstrates that kung fu is largely a victim of its training model.
> 
> @JowGaWolf would seem to be an example of someone who can modify the training model and make the style practical, as well.


Problem is philosophy of Kung fu is to COPY EXACTLY the original movement from hundreds of years back. They glorify copying rather than stop and think what works, what needs to improve. They spend so much time doing forms instead of san shou, they don't exactly concentrate on sparring. Even if they spar, they spar in their own confined form. Like Wing Chun spending so much time doing sticky hands with each other that doing sticky hands. But if they meet up with a boxer that nothing only punch fast, the their foot work is so good you cannot "STICK" to boxing hands and control the hands. BUT NO, they still spend hours practicing sticky hands.

This is space age, people record and analyze the opponents and improve their own technique rather blindly keep practicing their old ways. I remember before Royce Gracie fight with Matt Huges, they show Gracie still practicing arm bar on the ground before the fight, but then that was over 10 years after UFC started, people studied BJJ. Matt Huges literally flatten Gracie and ground and pound until referee stopped the fight. This is a constant evolving game. You are on top one day, you get your butt hand it to you the next day. Huges was eliminated just a few months later and never return. Things are moving at light speed now.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 7, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The technique has been used plenty in MMA and has proven effective. Heck, it's one of the classic Gracie jiu-jitsu techniques that was used back at the dawn of MMA. I was teaching it in my BJJ class just last week.



OMG, that's right. Royce was spamming that low sidekick like crazy; mostly as feints to get in for the clinch.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was never taught that it was used to kick just used to keep distance.  People look at the front kick the same way as just something to keep distance.  In Jow ga kung side kicks to the knee were always taught from the understanding that you are trying to destroy the knee.
> 
> This doesn't mean you can't use it to keep distance. But in self-defense  a stranger or enemy attacking you blow that knee out.  Once it's gone your attacker has no ability to attack you, unless it's with a gun.
> 
> But that's the same mindset that says hitting someone with a brick or chair is acceptable.


I would be willing to bet that BJJ from the perspective of a street fight sees it the same way. Destroy the knee so you don't have to take it to the ground.  It's a quicker way to win a fight.  It's easier to do it against an attacking stranger than some one you are on good terms with.  A Tony that I know would not get the same fight that I would give to a Tony I don’t know.  

Not saying I would win.  Just saying one has a bond and the other doesn't.  Somewhere in the US last night.  Someone got beaten up and or killed no one cares in the same light if someone mentioned that someone from this forum was beaten up. Not bad nor Good. It's just the way our minds process things.  with exceptions of course.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> BJJ took a strong hold for a long time. The stand up game came back once fighters became more successful in escaping the grappling submission attempt.  They do a much better job with staying off the ground.



It was BJJ domination for a little while but then the Wrestlers started to take the reign. Maurice Smith was the one who turned it around for the Strikers. But Wrestling & BJJ still held it, just not as dominant. Then the Senate investigations, leading to many more rules such as time limits => resetting to standup, which the Gracies greatly protested.

But IMO, it was Dana White's edict/nudge that he wanted to see more exciting fights; translated to, more standup striking and less "human blankets".  So if you were a Human Blanket stylist, ie. Demian Maia, you'd get less fights and less $$$. Many of the BJJ & Wrestlers adjusted and trained more striking, ie. Colby Covington, who was super boring but now, a lot of striking and antics.




JowGaWolf said:


> I think we will see San shou crossover occur with the increased striking that we see. At least I hope we see it.  I'm with you about Cung Le.  Bad timing as he entered at the end of his fighting career.  It appeared to be more of."yeah I can do this" and less "I'm going to dominate MMA"  He didn't have much of a challenge and MMA was that next level for him.  He did it and was satisfied.



I'm a big fan of Cung Le, but I thought the last few of his fights, there were backroom deals to not take him down to keep it exciting. One of the dudes he beat was a big time wrestler, yet didn't try to TD him once. It's been a long time, but I recall it was a White dude with platinum dyed hair.

Also, if you look at Cung Le's training, his main achievements in high school was Wrestling.  Before that, he was a little kid in a strip mall TKD school. He really didn't train too much Kung-Fu that I could find.  I see him training more Muay Thai than KF, esp. with Arjan Chai.  He fought in Sanda/Sanshou because in NorCal, there's a ton of Asians, esp. Viets and Kung-Fu is big among Viets, which meant more Sanda type, big tournaments. So to become famous, a fighter would fight Sanda at a stadium, rather than TKD or Karate at a high school for a plastic trophy. Muay Thai wasn't even popular yet, back then.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Those kind of kicks are the hallmark for TKD, that's the reason THEY are the one that is being recognized. You can claim whatever you want to claim, But TKD has schools AROUND THE WORLD.


What your system is known for does not void what your system trains.  Jow Ga is known for their lion dance.  Does that eans everything else they train is void?

TKD is known for kicks.  Does that mean the jabs the train are void?


drop bear said:


> It is going to hurt when people realise MMA does kung fu better.


Doesn't hurt me. Maybe it will hurt some of their Sifu's with Big Ego's.  Sort of like saying kung fu from western countries are more application focused than kung fu in China. There are Lei Tai fights each year in Baltimore, MD with people using kung fu.  What's the Chinese equivalent?  I don't know.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> It was BJJ domination for a little while but then the Wrestlers started to take the reign. Maurice Smith was the one who turned it around for the Strikers. But Wrestling & BJJ still held it, just not as dominant. Then the Senate investigations, leading to many more rules such as time limits => resetting to standup, which the Gracies greatly protested.
> 
> But IMO, it was Dana White's edict/nudge that he wanted to see more exciting fights; translated to, more standup striking and less "human blankets".  So if you were a Human Blanket stylist, ie. Demian Maia, you'd get less fights and less $$$. Many of the BJJ & Wrestlers adjusted and trained more striking, ie. Colby Covington, who was super boring but now, a lot of striking and antics.



I think what happened to Ryan Hall is especially telling. He couldn’t get fights because Dana hated his sport Bjj- based ground fighting style, and fighters hated dealing with his leg locking techniques.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Then you should complain to Olympic comity. Telling them TKD does not represent their specialize kick. That your style do that two. Then let the historians find out the truth.
> 
> Those kind of kicks are the hallmark for TKD, that's the reason THEY are the one that is being recognized. You can claim whatever you want to claim, But TKD has schools AROUND THE WORLD.
> 
> ...


What are you going on about?  I never claimed TKD does not have these kicks.  I only corrected your claim that kung fu does not.  We do.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's how the modern MA are, they learn from each other, they improve. NOT LIKE those kung fu. When kung fu got their butt handed to them, they make excuses " I don't want to use it as it's too deadly"!!  " I don't want to use it because it's our secret". All the excuses and excuses.
> 
> You really need to live in Hong Kong and China to hear all the BS from those so called masters.
> 
> ...


There you go again, trying to tell people what they do, and you have no first hand experience with it. Give it a rest.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Watch UFC, they use boxing hands to punch, Muy Thai elbows and knee, TKD kicks and Gracie BJJ and wrestling for grappling and ground work. It can be chased back to the origin.


Which origins?  Different people developed similar techniques independently.  You think these things each came from one single source?


----------



## Martial D (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You' would be surprise at how accurate you can be when dealing with moving components and changing distances.  All combat sports have examples of well timed punches that are accurate and intentional.  In comparison to what other's do. Landing a punch or kick where you want it is much easier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If that was true fights would all be over pretty fast. Yet they aren't.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't ask what he was trained in.  I asked if the technique was found in kung fu.


Thread title "Kung Fu in MMA wins"

Clickbait


----------



## Martial D (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> But it is happening more now than before.  Big wheel punches, oblique kicks. As fighters are getting used to the common techniques, we start to see them look for new techniques that people aren't used to dealing with.  Nothing unicorn about it.


Sigh


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I asked if the technique was found in kung fu.


You use a low inside crescent kick to block the incoming kick, you then change your inside crescent kick into a knee level (or groin level) side kick. This is the basic long fist kicking training that I learned when I was 14 during my 1st month of my long fist class.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You use a low inside crescent kick to block the incoming kick, you then change your inside crescent kick into a knee level (or groin level) side kick. This is the basic long fist kicking training that I learned when I was 14 during my 1st month of my long fist class.
> 
> View attachment 27238


I once tried to learn karate from pictures.  It was the most difficult thing ha ha ha.  But I'm glad I can understand it now. lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Martial D said:


> Thread title "Kung Fu in MMA wins"
> 
> Clickbait


ha ha ha.  mad because you clicked? or mad because you dont' agree? lol

Not saying that you are wrong about that.  Just curious.  Click bait or not it has lead to a good discussion.

Side kick





Jung Ga: Round house kick , side kick 1996.  Good ole punch from a mile out demo lol.





Jow Ga Side kick





Choy li Fut round house kick





crane side kick.  I don't know what this is but it's got a side kick


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It is going to hurt when people realise MMA does kung fu better





JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.  mad because you clicked? or mad because you dont' agree? lol
> 
> Not saying that you are wrong about that.  Just curious.  Click bait or not it has lead to a good discussion.
> 
> ...



Cool. Where are the traditional Kung Fu exponents in MMA?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2021)

One should never use a cross as his 1st punch.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> What are you going on about?  I never claimed TKD does not have these kicks.  I only corrected your claim that kung fu does not.  We do.


You have evidence from before Bruce Lee days kung fu already have these kicks. I am not a historian, maybe you can educate me. I just know TKD is recognized and respected for these kicks, in teaching and Olympics.

Like I said, I've seen a lot of kung fu demo and movies in hong kong, I have friends that were very into it that time and showed my their kung fu. Those kicks were NOT known until Bruce Lee.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One should never use a cross as his 1st punch.


It's not a definite No.  You can use it as your first punch, if for example, I use my lead hand (mirrored stance)  to control my opponent's lead hand. I can use my lead hand to move your lead hand towards your center toward your punching arm and move to the outside of that lead hand then I can successfully use that reverse punch.  

But as shown in that demo video.  I wouldn't punch from a mile out and definitely not with a rear punch.  If I want my first punch to be a reverse punch then my lead hand must clear the way.  In terms of attacking with punching.  The demo is not a direct visual of how those techniques would go down.   For me that video is more of a concept video than an application video.  Kicking to the ribs or abdomen while your opponent is punching is a concept.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> the lack of ground fighting pretty much murders it in the crib in terms of crossover potential.


Some how, the Kung Fu community seems to be very stubborn and too much pride. 30 years after Gracie whoop their butt, they still don't want to learn take down defense. If they learn take down defense, they can have a chance to go back to the UFC and show case.

They should have open mind and be humble enough to admit their short coming and learn. Like my school in the 80s, the school teach very little of traditional TKD, we forgo the wide horsestand, big stepping one step at a time those USELESS moves, punching from the hip all that stupid yesterdecade moves, learning from Bruce Lee, front leg round and side kicks, boxing hands........ We practice forms........TWO WEEKS before the belt test, then forget it right afterwards.

We concentrated on actual kicking on the pad while the partner holding it so one can get the feel of the kick, the other can get used to being kicked to the stomach and chest(through the bag). This is progress. The instructor never claim that is traditional TKD, he pretty much glorified Bruce Lee with a big picture of Lee hanging.

Maybe the Kung fu school has more open mind and humble in US, sure NOT in hong kong. They only know to bad mouth instead of changing and invalidate others..............OR say they have that too, that they just don't use it.



When I saw UFC I, 2 and 3, I said S*&%, what should I do?!!! I immediately start learning Iron Palm of Kung Fu thinking if that works, that would be the answer to the tackling. Their bad is exposed and I can iron palm the back and hurt the guy...............THEN I got fooled by the lies of iron palm that only gave me two carpal tunnels.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What your system is known for does not void what your system trains.  Jow Ga is known for their lion dance.  Does that eans everything else they train is void?
> 
> TKD is known for kicks.  Does that mean the jabs the train are void?


*No, that's a good thing*, BUT we don't claim TKD *has* boxing hands and dance like boxing too, we give credit to Bruce Lee and boxing. Our teacher was so humble that he actually invited a Jujitsu instructor to come every other month and taught us some Jujitsu. This is 1984, almost 10 years before Gracie BJJ conquered the whole MA scene ing UFC.

Be humble, do NOT take credit if it is not true. This is what I HATE about those so called "masters" of kung fu in Hong Kong. I hope in US, they learn to have an open mind and be humble like my school. Know your limits, LEARN instead of invalidating other styles.

What is MMA.......MIXED Martial Arts.....Emphasize MIXED. They admit at the very first word it's MIXED.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Which origins?  Different people developed similar techniques independently.  You think these things each came from one single source?


OK, your style invent those too!!!!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not a definite No.  You can use it as your first punch, if for example, I use my lead hand (mirrored stance)  to control my opponent's lead hand.


If you use your leading hand to control my leading arm, your cross will not be your 1st move, but your 2nd move. When you do that, none of these could happen in this clip.

It's good to train partner drill. But it's not good to train unrealistic partner drill.

In wrestling, it's very difficult to be able to control your opponent's 

- leading leg, and
- back arm,

at the same time.

An initial cross just give you that opportunity.


----------



## CB Jones (Sep 7, 2021)

Didn't TKD get the side kick from Karate?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Some how, the Kung Fu community seems to be very stubborn and too much pride. 30 years after Gracie whoop their butt, they still don't want to learn take down defense.


How much CMA have you trained?

CMA has as much take down defense as Judo, wrestling, and BJJ have.

As far as I know, BJJ is not interested in take down defense training.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How much CMA have you trained?
> 
> CMA has as much take down defense as Judo, wrestling, and BJJ have.



Yet not enough to stop an actual takedown.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> As far as I know, BJJ is not interested in take down defense training.



Well yeah, because it’s more efficient/important  to deal with what happens after getting taken down.

It reminds me of a vid of Marcelo Garcia going against one of those Kung fu exponents who are supposedly hard to take down. Garcia took him down rather quickly. Since resisting the takedown was the core of his grappling knowledge, once Garcia got him on the floor Mr. Kung Fu really didn’t know what to do afterwards.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you use your leading hand to control my leading arm, your cross will not be your 1st move, but your 2nd move. When you do that, none of these could happen in this clip.


You can still do what is shown in the clip. Step parry to the outside of a punch and kick to the abdomen.  That's totally do able.  In theory the 45 degree step to the outside is all that you need.  In actual practice, the lead hand parry followed by a kick will be able to control that lead hand before it gets the punch off. Which is the correct way to do that technique.  

I do agree with you that the partner drill should be realistic, but that's a demo so I don't see it as a drill.  I see it as concept.  This is how I read the first technique concept demo.  Concept:  Step to the outside of the punch and kick under punch. 

Actual technique. Keep your lead hand up to address your opponent's lead hand guard to prevent the punch from having a clean launch.  The 45 degree off center step and your lead hand move at the same time.  As you step off center use your lead hand guard to help ensure that any attempt by your opponent to launch a lead punch will be redirected with your lead hand.  In this scenario redirected simply means denying the punch a linear path to your face.  You do not wait for the punch but attack the lead guard with the understanding that your movements will trigger your opponent's lead punch.  The off center step has to happen at the same time as your lead hand addresses your opponent's effort, or will to punch you with that lead hand.   

If your opponent gets the punch started then use your lead hand to prevent the punches traveling a linear path to your face. By the time this action occurs, your stepping foot should have root allowing you to kick under the punch.  If your get to your opponents lead hand before the punch launches then pin that hand against your opponents body giving you the option to follow up with a reverse punch during the pinning or a different kick to the knee or leg of your opponent.

The 45 degree off angle step should naturally cause your opponent's eyes to follow the larger body mass and ignore the kick..  What I described is a possible application of what was shown as a concept.

Concepts demos are very general.  They show an idea but not a true application.  They often leave out the important bits.  Those who are familiar concepts will be able to fill in the important parts.   I can't tell you right now that using that concept as an "step for step" application without adding important parts will get you knocked out.  The purpose of the video "I hope" was to show the concepts of the various types of kicks.  If they thought they were showing applications then they were fooling themselves.  

Here's an example of concept of a flying car.  Very general.  It leaves out the details that make it work. If you don't know the important parts that makes this concept work, then you'll either won't fly, or you'll kill yourself trying.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You have evidence from before Bruce Lee days kung fu already have these kicks. I am not a historian, maybe you can educate me. I just know TKD is recognized and respected for these kicks, in teaching and Olympics.
> 
> Like I said, I've seen a lot of kung fu demo and movies in hong kong, I have friends that were very into it that time and showed my their kung fu. Those kicks were NOT known until Bruce Lee.


Jeezuz, do you actually believe what you are writing


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> OK, your style invent those too!!!!


Doubtless my style did not invent it.  But neither did TKD.  They were invented in various places, by various people, independently, in history.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Didn't TKD get the side kick from Karate?


ha ha ha.. don't say that too loud.  Wasn't there a guy on here that was anti-Japan and anti-Japanese?  If you say that TKD got the side kick from Karate 3 times, he may show up.  Opps.  Now it's been said twice lol.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How much CMA have you trained?
> 
> CMA has as much take down defense as Judo, wrestling, and BJJ have.
> 
> As far as I know, BJJ is not interested in take down defense training.


Be hasn't trained any, except for some charlatan who gave him bad iron palm training and now he is bitter to all Chinese martial arts.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Didn't TKD get the side kick from Karate?


They are different. Watch this video.





I learn something too watching. Now I can see why TKD can kick the highest which is pretty much the signature of TKD.....High kicks. But his kicks are from the back leg, very few do that anymore. Most of us do hop in front leg side kick. It's harder because you have less turn to pivot, but if you do it right, it's faster and just as powerful. Look at Bruce Lee.

1) You can see the explanation, *TKD chamber the knee, lift it really high and straight*, then pivot( throw your hip around) and turn to kick out.  We in TKD stress a lot in picking the knee up high and straight, *you don't know what kick is coming until much later* because the knee is picked up straight for front, side and round kick. Notice UFC mostly use TKD side kick that pick up the knee and turn and kick?

2) Karate looks to not picking up the knee, more like the turn back kick we do in TKD where the knee at most point to the* side*, more like* pointing down*. *Watch 10:30* on in the video.  There is very little pivot, You can NOT kick high with that, but it is easier for people that is NOT flexible.

3) I don't like Muy Thai side kick as much, it uses the ball of the foot, it is not as still, the ankle is not as strong as the heel and can give a little when hitting the target and reduce the power. The same reason I am actually practice front kick with the heel instead of the ball of the foot aka Chinese style. I find a lot of times when I front kick the bag with the ball of the foot, the ankle gives a little and reduce the power. But if I kick with the heel, it doesn't give and you can hear the snap on the bag. The down side is you lost a few inches of height kicking with the heel.

But I have a lot of respect towards Muy Thai, To me, it's kick boxing + elbow and knee. Back in the days, they have full contact competition between all styles in Asia. Muy Thai just whooped the butt of kung fu. that's why there's a lot of Muy Thai influence in UFC/MMA.

*Pivot is very important in TKD, all the power generates from the pivot.* I bet TKD kick the hardest because it uses the whole body. AND of cause, kick the highest.

Yes, *these three* are known to have their own way of doing side kick and are very different.



Is there any kung fu side kick video so I can learn?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Doubtless my style did not invent it.  But neither did TKD.  They were invented in various places, by various people, independently, in history.


Example of this.  Pictures showing kicks.  Pre- MMA,  Pre- Bruce Lee.  Various people, independently in history.





Savate. 





I really like this one. nice staff work. Same difficulties that I see today, but one of the guys was able to land some good techniques.





Awesome footage.





Same here another good find.  Some of the techniques should look familiar to many of us.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Ha, maybe I should try practicing karate side kick. It's the TKD pivoting that injured my back and I had to give up side kick completely all these years. Karate side kick doesn't require much pivoting, kicking with knee pointing down is much easier on the back. Might not be as good, but it's better than nothing. And sure a hell of a lot easier kick than TKD.

Try picking the knee high up straight, then pivot and turn to kick, it's very harsh on the back.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yet not enough to stop an actual takedown.


CMA may not have ground game. But CMA has all the takedown defense. Unfortunately one has to be a Chinese wrestler in order to learn it.

10 basic take down defense principles are:

吸(XI) - Sticking drop
摟(LOU) - Outer hook
勾(GOU) - Upper hook
判(PAN) - Trap
削(XIAO) - Sickle hooking
蹲(DUN) - Knee bending
跳(TIAO) - Hop
磨(MO) - Spin
轟(HONG) - Herd
摇(YAO) - Shake

Here is an example of the "吸(XI) - Sticking drop" followed by "轟(HONG) - Herd".


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Karate side kick doesn't require much pivoting, kicking with knee pointing down is much easier on the back. Might not be as good, but it's better than nothing. And sure a hell of a lot easier kick than TKD.


Kung fu teaches the side kick this way as well with the knee pointing down. It's easier on the hip as the hip turns over to a more natural position.  I will be the first to admit that my flexibility only allows my side kicks to travel rib height.  I have no  interest is kicking higher than the ribs I'm trying to break.  But that was when I had better flexibility than now.   Now my side kicks are going to land thigh and below. lol. That's until I get my flexibility back


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Kung fu teaches the side kick this way as well with the knee pointing down. It's easier on the hip as the hip turns over to a more natural position.  I will be the first to admit that my flexibility only allows my side kicks to travel rib height.  I have no  interest is kicking higher than the ribs I'm trying to break.  But that was when I had better flexibility than now.   Now my side kicks are going to land thigh and below. lol. That's until I get my flexibility back


You are much better than me now, I practice round kick to the knee, I still pulled my back Sunday. I could feel when I pull my back. Damn!!! I might be better off learning Karate kicks right from the beginning, I might not have a bad back like now. TKD is very bad on the back, might look good, but how long can your back last.

You read about why Bruce Lee die? I watch the tv program: Autopsy: Last moment of Bruce Lee. The doctor had a high suspicion of him abusing Cortisone injection into his spine. In the 70s, it's not very well researched, now, you cannot have Cortisone injection that often, have to have a waiting period in between. Lee was administering himself, he might have OD on that and triggered by some pain killer or something.* There is a price to pay to kick that high and that hard.*

I talked a lot about TKD, that doesn't mean I think it's the best, it's just is, that I spent almost 3 years working very hard on it. If I were to do it again, it's not going to be TKD.


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## drop bear (Sep 7, 2021)

Anyway. One lesson to take home is try to avoid this style of hook or jab if you are engaging in leg kicks. 

I have been injured doing precisely that and walking in to a round kick.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2021)

Now, it is important to make myself very clear. This thread is about UFC kick. All my comments are on effectiveness of winning, NOT any long term effect on a person. It's all about winning. People might win and stay up for a little while and fade away. You don't know how the health of the person, whether he/she can have a healthy life, or having a lot of pain, disability and all the ill effect from the training and competitions.

For us normal people that have no intention to step into the ring or go all out, a milder form of MA might be better. One that you can practice the rest of your life might be better than the best for beating people and then you fade with injuries. I am sure any MA is helpful for self defense, I just might be better off learning something that doesn't ruin my back and can still practicing at my age instead of working very hard for 3 years and got injured and can never go back.

So the two things are totally different. What I am talking very strong here is for fighting to the top, even if you last a year or less. Nothing to do with the long term health.......Which I might be better off knowing this in the 80s!!! 

Now, my exercise is more on boxing type, kicking mainly front kicks, Wing Chun step front kick and round kick to the leg..............If my back is in a good mood!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Like I said, I've seen a lot of kung fu demo and movies in hong kong, I have friends that were very into it that time and showed my their kung fu. Those kicks were NOT known until Bruce Lee.


If your CMA experience is limited in Hong Kong, I can understand. The southern fist and northern leg are well known by all Chinese. Also since there is no Chinese wrestling school in HK, I can understand why you made the other comment as well.

I just want to state that both side kick and anti-take down all exist in CMA.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 8, 2021)

I am surprised Joe Rogan practice Tae Kwon Do also. Here is his demo on turn back side kick( spin back kick to me). You can see in 2:20 he demo how Tae Kwon Do side kick is done using pivoting with the hip to generate power.





It's the pivoting that makes the TKD kicks so powerful and distinct. Round kick is the same.

One thing off the subject, those bags are so soft!!! Very similar to those in my gym, it's like punching into air.


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> CMA may not have ground game. But CMA has all the takedown defense. Unfortunately one has to be a Chinese wrestler in order to learn it.



The point is that you're not a complete grappler without a ground game. With BJJ being available in China, there's zero reason for CMA to not have a ground game at this point except for adhering to outmoded traditions and stylistic ego.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You are much better than me now, I practice round kick to the knee, I still pulled my back Sunday. I could feel when I pull my back. Damn!!!


It's about using the kick that works for you.  Like you stated below



Alan0354 said:


> Now, my exercise is more on boxing type, kicking mainly front kicks, Wing Chun step front kick and round kick to the leg..............If my back is in a good mood!!!


As a person who injures his back often doing non-martial arts stuff.  I know how you feel about injuring your back.  It takes me 6 months recovery when I screw up my back.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Cool. Where are the traditional Kung Fu exponents in MMA?


I couldn't tell you.  I don't keep up with Ufc fights And up coming fighters.   I may catch a fight weeks later on in passing.   When I watch one I tend to pay more attention to what techniques are being used than who is fighting.   The only reason I clicked play on the video I posted was to see what technique was used.  

I'm not into the fights like I used to be. I'm getting old because I feel "all the greats are gone."  Maybe I'll get back to it in the future.   But for now the Ufc Fights are pretty much reference points. The beatings they take are beatings that I don't have to take in my interest in gaining fight knowledge.   I don't have mentally visualize scenarios all the time. But when I do I have some realistic examples of movement and response to factor in


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I think what happened to Ryan Hall is especially telling. He couldn’t get fights because Dana hated his sport Bjj- based ground fighting style, and fighters hated dealing with his leg locking techniques.


Worked though.


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> the lack of ground fighting pretty much murders it in the crib in terms of crossover potential.



No different than Muay Thai, where we see considerable crossover.  I'm not talking about mapping it over directly.  Only that the striking and takedowns in San Shou are well developed and trained in a practical manner with a lot of competitive support.


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I couldn't tell you.  I don't keep up with Ufc fights And up coming fighters.   I may catch a fight weeks later on in passing.   When I watch one I tend to pay more attention to what techniques are being used than who is fighting.   The only reason I clicked play on the video I posted was to see what technique was used.
> 
> I'm not into the fights like I used to be. I'm getting old because I feel "all the greats are gone."  Maybe I'll get back to it in the future.   But for now the Ufc Fights are pretty much reference points. The beatings they take are beatings that I don't have to take in my interest in gaining fight knowledge.   I don't have mentally visualize scenarios all the time. But when I do I have some realistic examples of movement and response to factor in



A simple "There aren't any" would suffice. This is even the case with One Championship, which is based in East Asia.


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

Steve said:


> No different than Muay Thai, where we see considerable crossover.  I'm not talking about mapping it over directly.  Only that the striking and takedowns in San Shou are well developed and trained in a practical manner with a lot of competitive support.



Much of the MT crossover is because of American/western practitioners of the sport. MT has been around martial art circles a lot longer than San Shou/Sanda has been, and there were a lot of high level MT exponents around even before the first UFC. You really don't see too many Thai MT practitioners crossing over into MMA.


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

Steve said:


> Worked though.



Hall should have went to One Championship. Way more respect for ground fighting there.

Garry Tonon is there putting up a clinic;


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> A simple "There aren't any" would suffice. This is even the case with One Championship, which is based in East Asia.


But I don't know that, and neither do you.  Do you pay attention to upcoming mma fighters?  If so do you know the one who tries to use traditional kung fu in his matches. There's a guy that actually does this and he fights MMA I've seen him fight and he does try to use the techniques, but I don't know anything beyond that.

The fact that I'm the one telling you about this, and the fact that you didn't bring it up, proves my point.  One cannot say one way or another unless they have a good collection of information.  I'm not just going to look at the UFC and think that's all there is in the world of MMA.   If you know of this guy that I'm speaking of then, there would be no need for you to ask such a question.

I gave you an accurate answer, not the one you want to hear but accurate to my knowledge and how I watch MMA.  Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> But I don't know that, and neither do you.  Do you pay attention to upcoming mma fighters?  If so do you know the one who tries to use traditional kung fu in his matches. There's a guy that actually does this and he fights MMA I've seen him fight and he does try to use the techniques, but I don't know anything beyond that.
> 
> The fact that I'm the one telling you about this, and the fact that you didn't bring it up, proves my point.  One cannot say one way or another unless they have a good collection of information.  I'm not just going to look at the UFC and think that's all there is in the world of MMA.   If you know of this guy that I'm speaking of then, there would be no need for you to ask such a question.
> 
> I gave you an accurate answer, not the one you want to hear but accurate to my knowledge and how I watch MMA.  Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



Given that you viewed the video in the OP as an example of Kung Fu in MMA when the video had literally NOTHING to do with Kung Fu, you'll pardon me if I remain skeptical of your claim here.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Given that you viewed the video in the OP as an example of Kung Fu in MMA when the video had literally NOTHING to do with Kung Fu, you'll pardon me if I remain skeptical of your claim here.


The only thing I've claimed is that the technique is taught in Kung Fu as well as other fighting system.  If you can't accept that, then that's a personal issue have and your lack of understanding that this technique is trained  also a valid technique that has been taught in Kung Fu for centuries.  It's not only taught in kung fu.  Other systems also developed the same kick, some independently of kung fu.  But it doesn't make it any less or any more kung fu.  The fact that it's taught in kung fu makes it a kung fu technique.  The fact that it is taught in TKD makes it a TKD technique.  The fact that it's taught in karate makes it a karate technique.

So the title that I used isn't incorrect as it's stated.  That side kick technique is what ended and won the fight.  The technique is found in kung fu.   It's just not only found in kung fu.  Which is something I never claimed.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I think what happened to Ryan Hall is especially telling. He couldn’t get fights because Dana hated his sport Bjj- based ground fighting style, and fighters hated dealing with his leg locking techniques.



I hate his style too and was glad he got KTFO. He also comes off very annoyingly disrespectful with his facial expressions after his win. People can say it's due to his autism, but where was that usual expression during the hand raise at the end when he lost?  He's very talented and highly intelligent during his interviews, for sure; just not very likeable at all.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 8, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> He also comes off very annoyingly disrespectful with his facial expressions after his win.


Ryan Hall has Tourette's Syndrome. That causes him to have various facial tics which are not under conscious control.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 8, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Remember, Tae Kwon Do kicks are the main technique used in MMA. I am even surprised I start to see spin hook kick and even hammer kicks in UFC.



No it's not. What MMA gym do you train at?  Most MMA gyms adopt Muay Thai for their main striking style (esp for kicks) and it's been so for the past 20+ years now.  There are some that are very successful with a Karate base, but not nearly as close in numbers as the MT's. Next would be Kung-Fu at a distance 3rd.  TKD is probably near the bottom for being used in MMA. There are highly talented athletes that can incorporate TKD into their game to win, such as Izzy...but he didn't chose TKD to begin his KB, then MMA career with...his mommy put him into a strip mall TKD school due to bullies. I doubt she was some martial artist guru who knew the difference.

The first thing we teach TKD people who tries out MT is to not do that chamber & snap kicking. If they really don't believe me, then we spar to find out. Sometimes I do lose, but those were really big TKD boys.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 8, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ryan Hall has Tourette's Syndrome. That causes him to have various facial tics which are not under conscious control.



True, but I wasn't referring to those blinks and such; but specifically that smirk he does when he wins (with his face, shoulders, eyes, etc.).....that, "it was no big deal/easy work" smirk, every time he wins.  Most people don't like this. And it wasn't involuntary as he didn't do it when he lost in the last fight.

I know 2 dudes with Asperger's in Boxing class (at the same time from like 15 years ago, and they both got clobbered on a lot b/c they're kinda a-holes. One of them (who wasn't that bad) told me that he could tel that the other guy had Aspergers and that he has the same. He had to get a therapist, etc. to adjust his rude behaviors.

It also turned them into good fighters too and started handling it, so Boxing worked.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's about using the kick that works for you.  Like you stated below
> 
> 
> As a person who injures his back often doing non-martial arts stuff.  I know how you feel about injuring your back.  It takes me 6 months recovery when I screw up my back.


Let me change the subject since I think the thread pretty much play it out already, we are just repeating what we said!!

Actually because I was never that flexible, I knew even back at the time I should put a lot more effort on front kicks as it doesn't need much flexibility. So I did practice a lot on front kick, at least as much as side kick. 

Front kick to me is actually much harder to master than side kick and the easiest is round kick in the long run. Sure, anyone can pick up the leg and kick forward and be a front kick, but to kick hard is much harder. Side kick is very hard to learn, but once you learn it, it's easier to master. Front kick is very very hard to master to me particular kicking with the ball of the foot. A lot of people actually pull the bag when kicking the bag( it's not what you call push kick). It's very hard to actually "kick" the bag hard. I think it's because there is very little hip torquing or pivoting to add to the kick. 

Also it's hard to kick above the solaplex. The angle becomes so steep that the ball of the foot just slide up the heavy bag. It's hard to "stick into" the bag and penetrate deep. I still having problem doing that after all these years. Lately, I start kicking with the heel, that digs deeper and make a louder popping sound( now with the heel, not the bottom of the foot slapping the bag to make the sound).

Sadly, because of old age or maybe from kneeing the heavy bag, I injured my right knee that I talked about lately. I don't dare to practice that hard either. Damn, that old age. I have a lot of heart, just not body!!!!


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only thing I've claimed is that the technique is taught in Kung Fu as well as other fighting system.  If you can't accept that, then that's a personal issue have and your lack of understanding that this technique is trained  also a valid technique that has been taught in Kung Fu for centuries.



If it's a valid Kung Fu technique, why did you feel the need to ascribe it to a Muay Thai practitioner? Where's this Kung Fu MMA fighter you were talking about? What's their name? What Kung fu style do they practice?


Let's rewind back to the OP:



JowGaWolf said:


> It's about time, but not really.  I always knew this kick was bad news.  Straight out of the Kung Fu Manual.  Kung Fu gets a bad image, but there is some really dangerous end game type stuff in there.  Sucks to have that knee blown out like that.  Hopefully it's not career ending



Kung Fu gets a bad image because of nonsense like this. You guys say you don't care about MMA, but you clearly do because we get posts like this every so often. You guys say there's examples of Kung Fu in MMA, but we get crap like the OP where Kung Fu isn't even present. Now you're saying there's "some person" in MMA utilizing Kung Fu techniques in MMA, and you can't even remember their name. 

Can I just get some straight answers without the constant bait and switch silliness? It would be refreshing.


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## john_newman (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't ask what he was trained in.  I asked if the technique was found in kung fu.


Hanzou just wanted to say that the kick you're discussing has no connection with the Kung fu..


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Front kick to me is actually much harder to master than side kick and the easiest is round kick in the long run. Sure, anyone can pick up the leg and kick forward and be a front kick, but to kick hard is much harder.


I enjoy the front kick tremendously.  My opinion with the front kick is that one should learn to use it from the back leg and the front leg.  I think if you only train it from the back leg then you'll  have more difficulty in being able to use it.  If you practice it from the front or the back then it's always ready to go no matter how that kicking leg is position.



Alan0354 said:


> Front kick is very very hard to master to me particular kicking with the ball of the foot.





Alan0354 said:


> Also it's hard to kick above the solaplex. The angle becomes so steep that the ball of the foot just slide up the heavy bag. It's hard to "stick into" the bag and penetrate deep. I still having problem doing that after all these years


I might have something that will help but I would have to see how you are feeding power into the bag.  I personally don't target my front kicks above mid chest, my height.  I can kick with the heel or with toe.  If you can kick as high as your lower ribs then I think you have enough height to get a lot of use out of it.  My general rule for kicking is to kick everything that comes within my effective kicking range.  So If I want to kick someone in the head, I don't normally chase the target.  But if someone slips a punch and their head dips into my kicking range then I'll be more than happy to kick the leg.

My arms are so sore now, that I'll be be starting up some of my lower body training.  One of my training tools for kicking is one of those bendable drinking straws.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> If it's a valid Kung Fu technique, why did you feel the need to ascribe it to a Muay Thai practitioner?


Because it's not a Kung Fu Only technique


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> If it's a valid Kung Fu technique, why did you feel the need to ascribe it to a Muay Thai practitioner? Where's this Kung Fu MMA fighter you were talking about? What's their name? What Kung fu style do they practice?
> 
> 
> Let's rewind back to the OP:
> ...


The technique is found in Kung Fu.  I didn't say the guy trained kung fu.  But that same technique that is trained in Kung Fu is what won the fight.  

Do you have to Train Kung Fu in order to learn that kick? No.  Is that kick found and taught in Kung fu schools? Yes.  Is that kick only found in kung fu schools.? No.   

All answers are correct.   Just like.  Do you have to train Kung Fu to learn Kung Fu techniques?  No.  Just because you can use technique in a system doesn't mean you train in that system.   I use a lot of techniques that are found in Hung Ga.  Do I train hung ga?  Nope.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

john_newman said:


> Hanzou just wanted to say that the kick you're discussing has no connection with the Kung fu..


That's what I'm getting.  Personally I'm glad that many fighting use the same or similar techniques. I think that's a good thing.  There have been times where someone is discussing karate techniques and I recognized it to be same or similar to kung fu technique that I'm having trouble understanding, the karate person has a better grasp on that technique than my kung fu instructors did. Because it's the same technique, I can use that knowledge to fill in the gaps.  This would be impossible if that karate technique is fundamentally different than the one I train in kung fu.


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## paitingman (Sep 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How much CMA have you trained?
> 
> CMA has as much take down defense as Judo, wrestling, and BJJ have.
> 
> As far as I know, BJJ is not interested in take down defense training.


It's much harder for me to stop double and single legs when the attacker can put their knee to the ground.
You've been wrestling for a long time, so how do you deal with this?


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The technique is found in Kung Fu.  I didn't say the guy trained kung fu.  But that same technique that is trained in Kung Fu is what won the fight.



But Kung Fu doesn’t use the same training methodology that MT does. There’s so much going on with that technique application that it’s laughable to point to that and claim that it is a Kung Fu technique being applied. The stances aren’t the same, the conditioning isn’t the same, the training isn’t the same, etc.

It would be like someone doing a wrist lock in Bjj guard and some Aikidoka claiming that the Bjj exponent is now performing Aikido.



JowGaWolf said:


> Do you have to Train Kung Fu in order to learn that kick? No.  Is that kick found and taught in Kung fu schools? Yes.  Is that kick only found in kung fu schools.? No.
> 
> All answers are correct.   Just like.  Do you have to train Kung Fu to learn Kung Fu techniques?  No.  Just because you can use technique in a system doesn't mean you train in that system.   I use a lot of techniques that are found in Hung Ga.  Do I train hung ga?  Nope.



If all answers are correct, you wouldn’t have needed to use a Muay Thai practitioner for your example.

“Hey everyone, check out this MMA guy who has never done Kung Fu in his life do Kung Fu better than actual Kung Fu guys!”

This is basically what you’re saying.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> If it's a valid Kung Fu technique, why did you feel the need to ascribe it to a Muay Thai practitioner? Where's this Kung Fu MMA fighter you were talking about? What's their name? What Kung fu style do they practice?
> 
> 
> Let's rewind back to the OP:
> ...


They reason I don't remember the name is because I focus on the techniques being use.  I explained that already before you responded that a simple answer would do.


paitingman said:


> It's much harder for me to stop double and single legs when the attacker can put their knee to the ground.
> You've been wrestling for a long time, so how do you deal with this?


I factor this in when I'm on different surfaces.  I'll never forget seeing a video 15 years  ago of a school fight and the BJJ kid moved from the pavement to the grass and the other guy followed.  I thought that was really stupid as I knew there was some advantages to being on the concrete.  Once on the grass the grappler could make use of sliding entries. Lol


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> They reason I don't remember the name is because I focus on the techniques being use.  I explained that already before you responded that a simple answer would do.



Mmmhmm....

Given your statements thus far, wouldn't you agree that Muay Thai has done a better job at teaching people to fight than general Kung Fu? In other words, if the goal is to learn how to fight, wouldn't it be better for someone to go to a Muay Thai gym than a Kung Fu kwoon?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 8, 2021)

paitingman said:


> It's much harder for me to stop double and single legs when the attacker can put their knee to the ground.
> You've been wrestling for a long time, so how do you deal with this?


According to the wrestling strategy, if your opponent wants to get low, you help him to get much lower than he really wants to.

The double legs is difficult to counter because usually it's too late. When your opponent can reach to your back leg, there isn't much that you can do. This is why you should not stay in a narrow stance that your opponent can reach to both of your legs.

If you can put your hands on top of your opponent's neck and press him down, you can take him down before he can reach you. During my 1983 national SC tournament, in the final, my opponent was a western wrestler. He attacked me twice with single leg and I took him down twice with downward pull. Both rounds were all less than 8 seconds. Those 2 rounds are the easiest rounds that I ever had during my tournament years.

Another method is the reverse head lock that you can put your body weight on top of your opponent.

Also, if your opponent gets you with single leg, you can extend your leg between his legs, control his shoulder, and play the single leg hopping sticky game.

This is the only tournament picture that I have when my teacher competed in SC tournament. He was using "downward pull" against his opponent's "single leg".


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Mmmhmm....
> 
> Given your statements thus far, wouldn't you agree that Muay Thai has done a better job at teaching people to fight than general Kung Fu? In other words, if the goal is to learn how to fight, wouldn't it be better for someone to go to a Muay Thai gym than a Kung Fu kwoon?


Muay thai schools have done a better job in teaching fighting techniques because that's  their focus.  Most kung fu schools don't focus on fighting.  These schools make no secret about. At most ,only a handful of students will choose to learn martial arts for function.

Go to any Kung Fu school or Traditional  martial arts school and almost all of them will tell you that their goal is not to teach people how to fight. 

I was never taught how to fight in my school.  I was taught how to use and be functional using Jow Ga.  I never once asked my teachers how to fight.  I always asked how to use and they taught me.  I have even said on here many times " The more I learn about kung fu, the less it's about fighting."

If someone wants to learn how to fight, I will send them to a Muay Thai gym.  If someone wants to be functional in kung fu then I will teach them.

The fighting skills I want to learn can't be taught in a Muay Thai Gym that trains for sport. They don't train weapons so for me. I cannot reach my goals through Muay Tai.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If someone wants to learn how to fight, I will send them to a Muay Thai gym.  If someone wants to be functional in kung fu then I will teach them.
> 
> The fighting skills I want to learn can't be taught in a Muay Thai Gym that trains for sport. They don't train weapons so for me. I cannot reach my goals through Muay Tai.



That's interesting but I question what all of this functional training is for? It seems for show, more than anything else.

Because I train often with swords, but it's just for show; b/c there's rarely any function for it unless I wanted to risk getting shot.


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Muay thai schools have done a better job in teaching fighting techniques because that's  their focus.  Most kung fu schools don't focus on fighting.  These schools make no secret about. At most ,only a handful of students will choose to learn martial arts for function.



Then what is the focus of a Kung Fu school? You're learning to punch, kick, stand, move, swing ancient chinese weapons, etc. Why are you learning these techniques? Are you seriously going to argue that you're not learning these techniques to be a more efficient fighter?



JowGaWolf said:


> Go to any Kung Fu school or Traditional  martial arts school and almost all of them will tell you that their goal is not to teach people how to fight.
> 
> I was never taught how to fight in my school.  I was taught how to use and be functional using Jow Ga.  I never once asked my teachers how to fight.  I always asked how to use and they taught me.  I have even said on here many times " The more I learn about kung fu, the less it's about fighting."
> 
> ...



"Functional in Kung Fu/Jow Ga" simply means that you can utilize a Chinese martial arts style to its desired effect. Jow Ga, like all Martial Arts systems were developed for singular purpose; To make someone a better/skilled fighter, and everything within a given martial arts system is designed for that sole purpose. Now you can obviously say that this practice towards that goal can also make you a better human being, but that doesn't change what the martial art was designed for.

I mean, look at Bjj. I can easily say that getting the life choked out of you over and over again will humble you, as will the knowledge that you can rather easily kill or maim someone with your bare hands. Through diligent practice and consistent checking from your peers, you can actually come through BJJ as a much better person than when you began. Some higher exponents like Rickson Gracie even go off the deep end with the spiritual/metaphysical aspects. However, that doesn't change the fact that BJJ was created to make someone a better fighter, and that's really the only reason for its existence. Kung fu is no different.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's interesting but I question what all of this functional training is for?


Functional training is just that.  The ability to use the skill sets and techniques being taught.



jayoliver00 said:


> Because I train often with swords, but it's just for show; b/c there's rarely any function for it unless I wanted to risk getting shot.


I haven't trained with swords yet but it's on the list.   I'm currently training with my Son to be functional with staff fighting.  This doesn't mean that I'm training to be a martial arts staff fighter.  It just means I'm learning to be functional with the staff skills that I can use them if I need them.  I find enjoyment that my staff skills are not just for show, that I can actually be functional with them.  

Things like this appeal to me.  If I only train my staff for show then I won't be good in things like this.






You can still be functional with swords.  That's what's fencing is.  You can take fencing for the enjoyment of it.  There's no requirement to compete beyond your club.   There's also no push to use a sword in a street fight.  You just posses the skill sets to functionally fight with a sword.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Then what is the focus of a Kung Fu school? You're learning to punch, kick, stand, move, swing ancient chinese weapons, etc. Why are you learning these techniques? Are you seriously going to argue that you're not learning these techniques to be a more efficient fighter?


I've said many times before in this forum, that my goal is to be a good representation of Jow Ga kung fu and to show that it's functional.  Which is why I often spar to learn vs sparring for the sake of winning.  I've been very consistent about this.  Being a more efficient fighter can be done without taking kung fu.  Learn boxing.  Less to learn so you can focus only on punching and you can be a more efficient fighter that way.

If I'm in the street and I have a knife and my attacker doesn't then I can use my knife and be an efficient that way.  No need for kung fu.  I could even use a gun.   There are a lot of ways to be "efficient"  But only one way to show that Jow Ga is functional.  Train Jow Ga. Use Jow Ga


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> No it's not. What MMA gym do you train at?  Most MMA gyms adopt Muay Thai for their main striking style (esp for kicks) and it's been so for the past 20+ years now.  There are some that are very successful with a Karate base, but not nearly as close in numbers as the MT's. Next would be Kung-Fu at a distance 3rd.  TKD is probably near the bottom for being used in MMA. There are highly talented athletes that can incorporate TKD into their game to win, such as Izzy...but he didn't chose TKD to begin his KB, then MMA career with...his mommy put him into a strip mall TKD school due to bullies. I doubt she was some martial artist guru who knew the difference.
> 
> The first thing we teach TKD people who tries out MT is to not do that chamber & snap kicking. If they really don't believe me, then we spar to find out. Sometimes I do lose, but those were really big TKD boys.



Exept the chamber snap kicking style works for quite a few people.

Especially the question mark kick. Which has become a staple mma move.

Barbosa who I believe is a TKDer chambers his kicks.






And you can even watch him destroy a knee with a round kick.


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## drop bear (Sep 9, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Also it's hard to kick above the solaplex. The angle becomes so steep that the ball of the foot just slide up the heavy bag. It's hard to "stick into" the bag and penetrate deep. I still having problem doing that after all these years. Lately, I start kicking with the heel, that digs deeper and make a louder popping sound( now with the heel, not the bottom of the foot slapping the bag to make the sound).



There is a trick to it. I throw the stabby toe teep that can drop people.

It is half chambered and almost like a groin kick. Rather than that pushing kick a lot of people do.

And so I just snap it out and try to touch their liver with my big toe.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1169344979768117
			




This is off the back foot and across the body. I do either side or either foot.


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've said many times before in this forum, that my goal is to be a good representation of Jow Ga kung fu and to show that it's functional.  Which is why I often spar to learn vs sparring for the sake of winning.  I've been very consistent about this.  Being a more efficient fighter can be done without taking kung fu.  Learn boxing.  Less to learn so you can focus only on punching and you can be a more efficient fighter that way.
> 
> If I'm in the street and I have a knife and my attacker doesn't then I can use my knife and be an efficient that way.  No need for kung fu.  I could even use a gun.   There are a lot of ways to be "efficient"  But only one way to show that Jow Ga is functional.  Train Jow Ga. Use Jow Ga



Yes. In other words your goal is to become a better fighter through your practice of Jow Ga. What you're talking about here is a *preference*. You prefer the training methodology of Jow Ga over the training methodology of Muay Thai, just like I prefer the training methodology of BJJ over both JG and MT. However the goals of these martial arts are exactly the same. There is zero difference between you and someone who takes up MT. The only real difference is that MT ( and BJJ) removes all the fluff that Kung Fu stuffs into their systems for whatever reason.

We're all trying to get from A to B. Some arts simply offer a more efficient and effective way to get there. Hence why we have such a hard time finding Kung Fu practitioners in MMA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Then what is the focus of a Kung Fu school? You're learning to punch, kick, stand, move, swing ancient chinese weapons, etc. Why are you learning these techniques? Are you seriously going to argue that you're not learning these techniques to be a more efficient fighter?


For some folks, it's a dual purpose. We train for some fighting ability, but also for just the sheer enjoyment of learning something that's hard to do. There are techniques I learned and still teach that aren't very efficient at teaching fighting ability (they are teaching drills, but for specific types of body movement or mechanics, meant to be learned over time). I love working on those techniques, because they are so hard to make use of in the chaos of a fight. The mechanics they are meant to teach do help in grappling (mostly on the defensive side), but there are much more efficient ways to improve fighting effectiveness than those drills/techniques.

While I never specifically asked, I'm quite certain some of the folks I trained with didn't really have much interest in increasing their fighting skill. They just wanted to learn and practice something new and physical with folks who were having fun, in an environment where sucking at it wasn't mocked. And MA training fit the bill for them.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Exept the chamber snap kicking style works for quite a few people.
> 
> Especially the question mark kick. Which has become a staple mma move.
> 
> ...


those were some really nice an accurate kicks. right on the mark.


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> For some folks, it's a dual purpose. We train for some fighting ability, but also for just the sheer enjoyment of learning something that's hard to do. There are techniques I learned and still teach that aren't very efficient at teaching fighting ability (they are teaching drills, but for specific types of body movement or mechanics, meant to be learned over time). I love working on those techniques, because they are so hard to make use of in the chaos of a fight. The mechanics they are meant to teach do help in grappling (mostly on the defensive side), but there are much more efficient ways to improve fighting effectiveness than those drills/techniques.
> 
> While I never specifically asked, I'm quite certain some of the folks I trained with didn't really have much interest in increasing their fighting skill. They just wanted to learn and practice something new and physical with folks who were having fun, in an environment where sucking at it wasn't mocked. And MA training fit the bill for them.



None of those other purposes veers away from that core purpose though. In final analysis what are you learning? Are you learning techniques to paint a room, or are you learning techniques that can hurt or kill another person?

Again, there's certainly more efficient ways to get to the goal, but some people simply like the fluff. One of the reasons I chose BJJ over MMA for example was because I preferred gis and belts over shorts and rash guards. The gis and belts simply added a layer of fluff that I found comforting and appealing due to my background in Karate. However, my purpose in BJJ is no different than someone in a MMA gym seeking self defense and fitness.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> None of those other purposes veers away from that core purpose though. In final analysis what are you learning? Are you learning techniques to paint a room, or are you learning techniques that can hurt or kill another person?
> 
> Again, there's certainly more efficient ways to get to the goal, but some people simply like the fluff. One of the reasons I chose BJJ over MMA for example was because I preferred gis and belts over shorts and rash guards. The gis and belts simply added a layer of fluff that I found comforting and appealing due to my background in Karate. However, my purpose in BJJ is no different than someone in a MMA gym seeking self defense and fitness.


You're learning (at least in most cases) techniques that can be used to hurt someone. But some folks aren't focused on that purpose. Just like there are quite a few people who like sport-shooting (clays, targets, etc.) with no real interest in whether what they're doing prepares them at all for either hunting or self-defense. So they are very much veering away from the purpose sought by those training for either hunting or self-defense use of those same guns, though there is some overlap in what and how they train.

The issue for me here is your use of "fluff". The stuff you consider extraneous is part of the reason I train what I train. I like that stuff, so it's not "fluff" - it's content.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yes. In other words your goal is to become a better fighter through your practice of Jow Ga.


Here are 2 stages to my training.
*Stage 1*.  Become functional in Jow Ga.  That means I can use the techniques in a fight but it doesn't make me a fighter nor does it mean I'm training to fight.

*Stage 2: * I was going to get into competitive fighting some years back.  This training was focused on fighting.  It was greatly different than the Stage 1:

*Stage 1*: Is like asking can you fight. (people can do this without training to fight)
*Stage 2:* Is like asking can you fight competitively. (I don't know anyone who can do this without training to fight)

As for the "Kung fu fluff" that depends on what you are looking.  A lot of time what people see as fluff may not be fluff.  There is fluff in Kung Fu but you may be looking at the performance side of Kung Fu and not the functional side in Kung Fu. 

Example,  This may be considered as Fluff in MT





This may be considered as fluff in Boxing






I would say the most important thing with kung fu is to know what is fluff and what is practical.   Sometimes it's an easy thing to determine but sometimes it's not as clear as fighting techniques done in performance do not always have to be done in the same way that you would use them to fight.

Some may consider this fluff.  No one fights like this; so the techniques must be fluff right?


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You're learning (at least in most cases) techniques that can be used to hurt someone. But some folks aren't focused on that purpose. Just like there are quite a few people who like sport-shooting (clays, targets, etc.) with no real interest in whether what they're doing prepares them at all for either hunting or self-defense. So they are very much veering away from the purpose sought by those training for either hunting or self-defense use of those same guns, though there is some overlap in what and how they train.
> 
> The issue for me here is your use of "fluff". The stuff you consider extraneous is part of the reason I train what I train. I like that stuff, so it's not "fluff" - it's content.



Well we're not talking about clay shooting, we're talking about martial arts. 

Consider for example Aikido; While many talk about Aikido's spiritual aspects and how it makes them better people, underneath the surface there is still a strong desire to be effective at fighting another person. Aikidoka still like to talk about how Ueshiba tossed a burly Judo man in a train with his pinky, and that he could really toss 50 people around without breaking a sweat. Aikidoka like the idea that what they're doing is effective in combat. Hence why so much anger was placed upon Rokas when he went up against that MMA fighter and was soundly outclassed, and why many still harbor anger towards him. He exposed the art for all to see, and people simply weren't happy about it.

Now if Aikido wasn't about fighting, whatever Rokas did wouldn't have mattered. People would have said that Aikido isn't about fighting, so you going against a MMA fighter is like someone practicing Yoga going against a MMA fighter. However, that isn't what happened. Instead, what happened is that people said that Rokas wasn't doing Aikido *properly*, and that he lost because he wasn't doing "real" Aikido.

And yeah, you can definitely enjoy the fluff. For some folks, it's all about the fluff. The fluff is there to make your training feel more important than it really is. It's to give you a layer of tradition, purpose, wonder, etc. However, it's still fluff. When I visited an Aikido dojo a few years back, I rather enjoyed the ceremony, tradition, the bowing, the calligraphy, the tea after class, etc. When I rolled with the head instructor after class though, all of that fluff went away, and it was simply two men on the mat grappling with each other for dominance.


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here are 2 stages to my training.
> *Stage 1*.  Become functional in Jow Ga.  That means I can use the techniques in a fight but it doesn't make me a fighter nor does it mean I'm training to fight.



Uh, that's exactly what you're doing. Your goal is to effectively utilize those techniques in a *fight*.



JowGaWolf said:


> *Stage 2: * I was going to get into competitive fighting some years back.  This training was focused on fighting.  It was greatly different than the Stage 1:




Just because you have no desire to fight competitively doesn't change the fact that you are training to become better at fighting.



JowGaWolf said:


> *Stage 1*: Is like asking can you fight. (people can do this without training to fight)
> *Stage 2:* Is like asking can you fight competitively. (I don't know anyone who can do this without training to fight)
> 
> As for the "Kung fu fluff" that depends on what you are looking.  A lot of time what people see as fluff may not be fluff.  There is fluff in Kung Fu but you may be looking at the performance side of Kung Fu and not the functional side in Kung Fu



There's a difference?



JowGaWolf said:


> Example,  This may be considered as Fluff in MT



Definitely.



JowGaWolf said:


> This may be considered as fluff in Boxing



I would consider that more of a tactic.



JowGaWolf said:


> I would say the most important thing with kung fu is to know what is fluff and what is practical.   Sometimes it's an easy thing to determine but sometimes it's not as clear as fighting techniques done in performance do not always have to be done in the same way that you would use them to fight.
> 
> Some may consider this fluff.  No one fights like this; so the techniques must be fluff right?



Many Capoeira practitioners would also say that what they're doing is a dance, not actual fighting. I have run across plenty of stylists who say what they're doing would not be effective in a fight, and they're just doing it for the performative aspect.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Well we're not talking about clay shooting, we're talking about martial arts.
> 
> Consider for example Aikido; While many talk about Aikido's spiritual aspects and how it makes them better people, underneath the surface there is still a strong desire to be effective at fighting another person. Aikidoka still like to talk about how Ueshiba tossed a burly Judo man in a train with his pinky, and that he could really toss 50 people around without breaking a sweat. Aikidoka like the idea that what they're doing is effective in combat. Hence why so much anger was placed upon Rokas when he went up against that MMA fighter and was soundly outclassed, and why many still harbor anger towards him. He exposed the art for all to see, and people simply weren't happy about it.
> 
> Now if Aikido wasn't about fighting, whatever Rokas did wouldn't have mattered. People would have said that Aikido isn't about fighting, so you going against a MMA fighter is like someone practicing Yoga going against a MMA fighter. However, that isn't what happened. Instead, what happened is that people said that Rokas wasn't doing Aikido *properly*, and that he lost because he wasn't doing "real" Aikido.




I do think there are folks who train Aikido with the expectation that it is effective for fighting. I even think there are folks who train it with the expectation that they will become effective at fighting. I also know there are folks who train it with no concern whether they become effective at fighting (and for whom the idea of the base being potentially effective is intriguing, but no more), and who train it specifically for peace. And in that, I don't mean just to be strong enough to not need to fight, but they use the movement as an expression of a philosophy of peace. For them, it's very much like me shooting sporting clays (which is why I brought in that analogy). I don't ever intend to hunt, so it doesn't affect me a bit whether training sporting clay shooting is or is not an effective practice for improving rodent and bird hunting.



> And yeah, you can definitely enjoy the fluff. For some folks, it's all about the fluff. The fluff is there to make your training feel more important than it really is. It's to give you a layer of tradition, purpose, wonder, etc. However, it's still fluff. When I visited an Aikido dojo a few years back, I rather enjoyed the ceremony, tradition, the bowing, the calligraphy, the tea after class, etc. When I rolled with the head instructor after class though, all of that fluff went away, and it was simply two men on the mat grappling with each other for dominance.


You still insist content is fluff, even if it's the point (or at least partially so). If I take up Aikido solely to improve flexibility and coordination, anything beyond those aims (including fighting application) is fluff to me. If I take it up solely for the philosophy, anything that doesn't support that philosophy (including fighting competence) is fluff to me. If I take it up solely for fighting competence, anything that doesn't support that competence (including ritual and philosophy) is fluff. If I take it up with all three of those things in mind, none of them is fluff.

"Fluff" is the part that doesn't support our goals. You don't get to decide something is universally "fluff" by your definition. I think you know it would be insulting to someone studying Aikido for the philosophy and graceful movement, "That's all fluff."


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I do think there are folks who train Aikido with the expectation that it is effective for fighting. I even think there are folks who train it with the expectation that they will become effective at fighting. I also know there are folks who train it with no concern whether they become effective at fighting (and for whom the idea of the base being potentially effective is intriguing, but no more), and who train it specifically for peace. And in that, I don't mean just to be strong enough to not need to fight, but they use the movement as an expression of a philosophy of peace. For them, it's very much like me shooting sporting clays (which is why I brought in that analogy). I don't ever intend to hunt, so it doesn't affect me a bit whether training sporting clay shooting is or is not an effective practice for improving rodent and bird hunting.



Okay, but don't you also train in your style with the hope that if someone attacks you, you can utilize your martial art effectively and efficiently to end the attack and possibly save your life, or the life of someone you care about? I mean, you're not shooting clay because you want to learn how to shoot people. However, you are learning a wrist lock with the goal to be proficient enough to use it on another human being.



gpseymour said:


> You still insist content is fluff, even if it's the point (or at least partially so). If I take up Aikido solely to improve flexibility and coordination, anything beyond those aims (including fighting application) is fluff to me. If I take it up solely for the philosophy, anything that doesn't support that philosophy (including fighting competence) is fluff to me. If I take it up solely for fighting competence, anything that doesn't support that competence (including ritual and philosophy) is fluff. If I take it up with all three of those things in mind, none of them is fluff.
> 
> "Fluff" is the part that doesn't support our goals. You don't get to decide something is universally "fluff" by your definition. I think you know it would be insulting to someone studying Aikido for the philosophy and graceful movement, "That's all fluff."



Yeah, but what are the improvements in flexibility and coordination designed for? What is the philosophy designed for? It's all designed to make you a more efficient fighter. If flexibility and coordination was their main goal, they'd be taking up Yoga instead of Aikido. However, if they're taking up a martial art, then clearly they're also there because they want to toss someone across the room. 

The reason I call it fluff is because the tradition and the philosophy isn't necessary to achieve the end goal, which is to apply a technique in an effective and efficient manner. People can do that without the Shinto and heavy Japanese culture. It's just there to add additional layers to the art and to further envelope the students in the overall experience.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, that's exactly what you're doing. Your goal is to effectively utilize those techniques in a *fight*.


Effectively is not a static level.  If varies based on my skill level compared to the skill level of the person you have to fight against.  I can teach someone how to punch and how to punch hard.  That hard punch may service them good in a street fight where the person is of the same or lower skill that they are.   But that same skill set can easily be totally useless in an amateur or professional fight setting.  How many videos have we seen when some "street fighter" gets into  a ring with someone who actually trains to fight?

The "stlreet fighter" may be knocking out the people he chooses to fight with on the street.  But once he gets into the ring with someone who fights, those same skills become crap.

There's a difference in being able to play tennis with friends and to hit the ball good.  You are good enough to have a good game.  Take those same tennis skills and go against someone who actually trains to be a tennis player.

It's not the same thing.  I may play tennis but I'm not a "Tennis player"  I may play basket ball but I'm not a "Basketball Player."  I may sing but I'm not a "singer"  Martial arts is like this.  Even Muay Thai is like this as not everyone who Joins a Muay Thai gym is trying to get into a ring to fight.  They just want to be able to kick good and punch good. and to be functional.

If I'm trying to be as efficient as possible then I need to train at the highest level.  Which I don't.


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Effectively is not a static level.  If varies based on my skill level compared to the skill level of the person you have to fight against.  I can teach someone how to punch and how to punch hard.  That hard punch may service them good in a street fight where the person is of the same or lower skill that they are.   But that same skill set can easily be totally useless in an amateur or professional fight setting.  How many videos have we seen when some "street fighter" gets into  a ring with someone who actually trains to fight?
> 
> The "stlreet fighter" may be knocking out the people he chooses to fight with on the street.  But once he gets into the ring with someone who fights, those same skills become crap.



How does any of that invalidate my point?

*Why* are you teaching someone to punch? Aren't you teaching them to punch *CORRECTLY* so that when they actually punch another human being their punch will have the desired effect (disable their assailant)? Whether they're using it in the ring, the street, or in their home, the purpose remains the same.



JowGaWolf said:


> There's a difference in being able to play tennis with friends and to hit the ball good.  You are good enough to have a good game.  Take those same tennis skills and go against someone who actually trains to be a tennis player.
> 
> It's not the same thing.  I may play tennis but I'm not a "Tennis player"  I may play basket ball but I'm not a "Basketball Player."  I may sing but I'm not a "singer"  Martial arts is like this.  Even Muay Thai is like this as not everyone who Joins a Muay Thai gym is trying to get into a ring to fight.  They just want to be able to kick good and punch good. and to be functional.
> 
> If I'm trying to be as efficient as possible then I need to train at the highest level.  Which I don't.



Yeah, but you're comparing someone goofing around on a tennis court to someone* paying *an instructor (aka a *professional*) to teach them tennis. If I'm paying a professional to teach me tennis, I expect better results than me just picking up a racket and teaching myself. The job of the tennis coach is to take me far and above someone who is self taught.

Taking this into the realm of martial arts, if I'm entering your school to learn Jow Ga, I'm expecting better results than if I learned Jow Ga from a book I found on Amazon, or me and my friends watching a Kung Fu movie and imitating it's movements. 

Back to the tennis example; Am I expecting to become a professional tennis player? No. However, I should be far superior at tennis than someone who just picked up a racket and goofed around with their friends. If I'm not, then the methodology of the tennis coach was flawed. The same applies to martial arts.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, but don't you also train in your style with the hope that if someone attacks you, you can utilize your martial art effectively and efficiently to end the attack and possibly save your life, or the life of someone you care about?


This is correct but I'm not training at a level in which my attacker is a professional fighter.  The chance that scenario will ever be a highly skilled fighter of a professional caliber is zero.  Between meeting someone with a gun and fighting someone with professional fighting skills. I can tell you most people in the US will get into a situation where there's a gun long before they even get into a situation where there's a professional fighter  trying to fight them.   So far for me.  Guns 2 - Professional fighters 0


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is correct but I'm not training at a level in which my attacker is a professional fighter.  The chance that scenario will ever be a highly skilled fighter of a professional caliber is zero.  Between meeting someone with a gun and fighting someone with professional fighting skills. I can tell you most people in the US will get into a situation where there's a gun long before they even get into a situation where there's a professional fighter  trying to fight them.   So far for me.  Guns 2 - Professional fighters 0



Your possible assailant being a "professional fighter" is irrelevant. You're training with the hope that *at minimum*, you will be a more effective fighter than a person who does not train. That's the point.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> *Why* are you teaching someone to punch? Aren't you teaching them to punch *CORRECTLY* so that when they actually punch another human being their punch will have the desired effect (disable their assailant)?


You are missing the point.



Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but you're comparing someone goofing around on a tennis court to someone* paying *an instructor (aka a *professional*) to teach them tennis.


Correct to teach them tennis.  To be good at it, but not to be a "tennis player"



Hanzou said:


> If I'm paying a professional to teach me tennis, I expect better results than me just picking up a racket and teaching myself. The job of the tennis coach is to take me far and above someone who is self taught.


But you don't expect yourself to be a "Tennis player" after paying the money.  I paid money in the past for tennis lessons with no desire to be a "Tennis player"  I got good at playing tennis and was able to beat those who never had tennis lessons and some who did have tennis lessons..  But I was not a tennis player.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Your possible assailant being a "professional fighter" is irrelevant. You're training with the hope that *at minimum*, you will be a more effective fighter than a person who does not train. That's the point.


At a minimum you only need to be functional and good with using the techniques.  

It's like my tennis example.  I learned enough tennis to be functional which was a bigger advantage over those who weren't trained.  When I teach someone to be functional with attacks and defense. They will have an advantage over someone who hasn't been trained.  It doesn't mean they will win the fight.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Taking this into the realm of martial arts, if I'm entering your school to learn Jow Ga, I'm expecting better results than if I learned Jow Ga from a book I found on Amazon, or me and my friends watching a Kung Fu movie and imitating it's movements.


I would teach you to be functional with Jow Ga. Meaning you will be able to use those techniques in a fight to help defend yourself and do better than most people who do not train to fight.   I would also remind you that just because you are Functional with Jow Ga does not mean you won't loose the street fight.  I would inform you that if you want  be trained to fight.  It will take more than the functional training that  you just went through.  Training to fight means that you are trying to be at the top of your fighting ability and that you are going beyond just being functional.  You are now training and conditioning to be dominant in fighting.

If you don't want to get into that brutal training then you should be fine where you are as your current functional Jow Ga training has made your stronger and given you the ability to actually use your techniques.  I would then remind you that if you cross paths with someone who trains to fight in the ring or competitively, to be extra cautious as your current skill level will most likely not match that of someone who trains to fight competitively.  

The path that you will take will be up to you.  If you feel good that what I taught you to that point is good enough to handle most situations you might find yourself in , then you'll just keep training that.  If you feel like you need more focused training on fighting then training will become harder and more brutal.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You're training with the hope that *at minimum*, you will be a more effective fighter than a person who does not train. That's the point.


The problem that I have with this is "Effective fighter"  "Effective" is fine.   "Fighter" to me is someone who trains with the primary focus to fight.

If you ask me what is my Training for Functional Jow Ga.  You will get one type of training.  If you ask me what is my Training for fighting with Jow Ga, you will get something totally different.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, but don't you also train in your style with the hope that if someone attacks you, you can utilize your martial art effectively and efficiently to end the attack and possibly save your life, or the life of someone you care about? I mean, you're not shooting clay because you want to learn how to shoot people. However, you are learning a wrist lock with the goal to be proficient enough to use it on another human being.


I do, but not everyone does. And it's far from the only reason. If I was only concerned with fighting efficacy, I'd choose something that has a more efficient approach to delivering that.



> Yeah, but what are the improvements in flexibility and coordination designed for? What is the philosophy designed for? It's all designed to make you a more efficient fighter. If flexibility and coordination was their main goal, they'd be taking up Yoga instead of Aikido. However, if they're taking up a martial art, then clearly they're also there because they want to toss someone across the room.


What they were originally designed for isn't necessarily material to what I, you, or anyone else wants from them. Just like the sporting clays (which probably started out as a drill for practicing for hunting).

You're making a blanket assumption about what people would choose. It's categorically incorrect. People choose what they choose because it's what they want, not because it's entirely logical.



> The reason I call it fluff is because the tradition and the philosophy isn't necessary to achieve the end goal, which is to apply a technique in an effective and efficient manner. People can do that without the Shinto and heavy Japanese culture. It's just there to add additional layers to the art and to further envelope the students in the overall experience.


Ah, but you're back to mandating what the end goal must be. If that's not the end goal, then what is "fluff" changes. Not everyone in MA has your personal goals.

And yes, if folks want to train to fight (and only do that), then those things are fluff to them. But if someone wants to practice something with some ritual (perhaps because they find it calming, or because they feel the need for something more regimented in their lives, or just because they really like it), then that ritual stuff isn't fluff to them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> But you don't expect yourself to be a "Tennis player" after paying the money. I paid money in the past for tennis lessons with no desire to be a "Tennis player" I got good at playing tennis and was able to beat those who never had tennis lessons and some who did have tennis lessons.. But I was not a tennis player.


I'll need you to help me on this one. If you play tennis, you meet the dictionary definition of "tennis player" (basically, one who plays tennis), so I'm strugging to follow your usage here.


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> 
> Correct to teach them tennis.  To be good at it, but not to be a "tennis player"
> ...



Okay, but why shouldn't I expect that? My BJJ gym had quite a few guys who wanted to (and did) fight professionally. So if my goal is to fight professionally, why should I not expect that level of training from your school? Would you not consider yourself a professional? 

Going back to the tennis analogy, if I'm hiring someone to teach me tennis, I should have the personal option to play professionally or not. A professional instructor that I'm paying shouldn't be the one to put a cap on my potential.


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> At a minimum you only need to be functional and good with using the techniques.
> 
> It's like my tennis example.  I learned enough tennis to be functional which was a bigger advantage over those who weren't trained.  When I teach someone to be functional with attacks and defense. They will have an advantage over someone who hasn't been trained.  It doesn't mean they will win the fight.



And whether or not they win the fight is also irrelevant. The point is that you're taking an untrained person and training them to be a fighter. Again, at minimum, you're teaching them to be a better fighter than the general population. That's why they're there.



JowGaWolf said:


> The problem that I have with this is "Effective fighter"  "Effective" is fine.   "Fighter" to me is someone who trains with the primary focus to fight.
> 
> If you ask me what is my Training for Functional Jow Ga.  You will get one type of training.  If you ask me what is my Training for fighting with Jow Ga, you will get something totally different.



Okay, so what is "functional" Jow Ga? What is the primary focus of your martial art? The primary focus of Bjj is achieve a dominant position via grappling, and we learn scores of techniques to accomplish that goal. "Functional" Bjj would be me successfully pulling off those techniques in a training session or an actual fight/SD situation.

What are you learning in Jow Ga? From your videos it appears to be an awful lot of punching and kicking for it to not be focused on fighting.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is a trick to it. I throw the stabby toe teep that can drop people.
> 
> It is half chambered and almost like a groin kick. Rather than that pushing kick a lot of people do.
> 
> ...


That's exactly how I kick, it's not push kick at all, it snap forward and hit with the ball of the foot to dig into the target.

This is a much harder kick than push kick, but do it right, it's the highest speed that dig into the target. But it's hard, all these years practicing( not hours a week, but consistent throughout the years), it's still hard to kill to the solarplex without sliding up the bag and lost the power. Also, sometimes, the ankle of the foot is not tighten at the moment of contact and give, that reduces the power of the kick.

It's the timing, your foot should be relax when starting the kick, then when the ball of the foot almost hit the target, the ankle needs to tighten up so it doesn't give at the moment of contact. Just like punching, the whole arm should be relaxed, then throw the punch, the last moment before contact, you tighten up the wrist and squeeze the hand to dig into the target. It just much harder to control the foot. That's what I was talking all along that a good front kick is very hard even thought it sounds the easiest of all kicks.


Actually a good push kick is not bad, it's a combination of snapping and use the hip to push forward. That's NOT a lot of non experts do, they literally pick up the foot and push forward to the object. There is no penetrating power, just push the object back. When they kick the kicking bag, there's almost no or very light sound because there is no speed in the contact, just push the bag. There's no stopping power, the opponent just get push back a step and move forward again!!!


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I do, but not everyone does. And it's far from the only reason. If I was only concerned with fighting efficacy, I'd choose something that has a more efficient approach to delivering that.



Sure, I don't practice BJJ ONLY for fighting purposes, but that is the *main reason* I'm doing BJJ and not hip hop dance or marathon running.

And while you're not concerned with being the best fighter around, you are concerned with at least being better than the average joe. I think we do ourselves a disservice in believing that the primary reason we're doing something has nothing to do with violence. It most certainly does, and I have to seriously question the honesty of someone who says they have no interest in fighting when they're learning a methodology that teaches them to injure, maim, and kill another human being.

And keep in mind, when I say "fighting", I'm not saying getting in a ring and fight someone for a trophy. I'm talking about pure human to human violence. The old man who wants to feel a little safer walking home from the deli. The soccer mom who is a little wary at night because her husband works the night shift. The school kid who is getting bullied by a gang of kids. The young teacher who is working in an innercity school and doesn't want to get attacked by his students, etc, etc, etc. They're all training to become better* fighters, *because if you know how to fight, you're simply better at defending yourself.



gpseymour said:


> What they were originally designed for isn't necessarily material to what I, you, or anyone else wants from them. Just like the sporting clays (which probably started out as a drill for practicing for hunting).
> 
> You're making a blanket assumption about what people would choose. It's categorically incorrect. People choose what they choose because it's what they want, not because it's entirely logical.



See above.



gpseymour said:


> Ah, but you're back to mandating what the end goal must be. If that's not the end goal, then what is "fluff" changes. Not everyone in MA has your personal goals.
> 
> And yes, if folks want to train to fight (and only do that), then those things are fluff to them. But if someone wants to practice something with some ritual (perhaps because they find it calming, or because they feel the need for something more regimented in their lives, or just because they really like it), then that ritual stuff isn't fluff to them.



And there's nothing wrong with that. My point is that no matter how pretty you dress it up, all martial arts have the same core. The only real difference is how much fluff you stuffed into it. That old man in the Aikido class may really dig all the Japanese culture and etiquette he's learning, but the real reason he's there is because in the back of his mind he actually believes that his Aikido can counter a burly young high school wrestler trying to dump him on his head. His instructor feeds him this stuff because the instructor has to tell his students that what they're learning is effective, yet also tell them to avoid fighting at all possible.

And thus the logical loops begin.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'll need you to help me on this one. If you play tennis, you meet the dictionary definition of "tennis player" (basically, one who plays tennis), so I'm strugging to follow your usage here.


That's a general definition without context.  By that definition anyone who is on a tennis court playing a game of tennis would be considered a tennis player even if you and I were to hit the ball into the net or off the court every time.  We would satisfy that definition each time so long as we are playing the game of tennis.

This is how Kung Fu masters get laid out on their backs.   They train Kung Fu and they think they are fighters and then they meet real fighters who defeat them with the most basic of skills.

When you use google images for "Tennis Players", who do you see show up in the results
When you use google images for "Recreational Tennis Player"  who do you see show up.  

The one thing that Google is good at is presenting searches as most people see and understand it.  You can go with the general definition "A person who plays tennis" but you will miss out on a lot of important nuances.


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Sure, I don't practice BJJ ONLY for fighting purposes, but that is the *main reason* I'm doing BJJ and not hip hop dance or marathon running.
> 
> And while you're not concerned with being the best fighter around, you are concerned with at least being better than the average joe. I think we do ourselves a disservice in believing that the primary reason we're doing something has nothing to do with violence. It most certainly does, and I have to seriously question the honesty of someone who says they have no interest in fighting when they're learning a methodology that teaches them to injure, maim, and kill another human being.


This is such an important point.  I make soap.  I enjoy it because it's part art and part science.  I don't sell it, and don't do it because I want to be the best soap maker around.  But I am very interested in making high quality soap.  And it would be (I think we can all agree) very strange to our ears if I said, "I'm not really worried about the soap being safe and effective, because I do it for other reasons."


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's exactly how I kick, it's not push kick at all, it snap forward and hit with the ball of the foot to dig into the target.
> 
> This is a much harder kick than push kick, but do it right, it's the highest speed that dig into the target. But it's hard, all these years practicing( not hours a week, but consistent throughout the years), it's still hard to kill to the solarplex without sliding up the bag and lost the power. Also, sometimes, the ankle of the foot is not tighten at the moment of contact and give, that reduces the power of the kick.
> 
> ...


I missed the edit deadline!!

I forgot to say kicking with the heel solves all the problem, the heel does not buckle, it always stick in hard. The problem is you lose some height, much more importantly, you *LOSE like 5 to 6" of reach*, that really makes a difference. Also, your foot has to be flexible enough to get the front part of the foot out of the way, or else it will dissipate part of the energy and reduce the power of the kick at the heel.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Sure, I don't practice BJJ ONLY for fighting purposes, but that is the *main reason* I'm doing BJJ and not hip hop dance or marathon running.
> 
> And while you're not concerned with being the best fighter around, you are concerned with at least being better than the average joe. I think we do ourselves a disservice in believing that the primary reason we're doing something has nothing to do with violence. It most certainly does, and I have to seriously question the honesty of someone who says they have no interest in fighting when they're learning a methodology that teaches them to injure, maim, and kill another human being.
> 
> ...


I don't think we're acres apart on this. The main difference I see is that you don't think it's possible for someone to choose something like martial arts without being interested in being able to actually use the techniques for the original purpose. I just don't agree with that. I suspect there are large numbers of folks in Shin-Shin Toitsu who really have little to no interest in the martial application. The wording on the main organization website (which seems to entirely lack reference to self-defense or fighting) suggests that population exists. And I don't think it requires they are dishonest to make that claim. Lots of people practice "Tai Chi", which is derived from (and maybe even an accurate subset of) Taiji Chuan, as I understand it. And none of the old folks I've met who "do Tai Chi" ever once referred to self-defense as a purpose. Many of them may not know it's derived from a martial art. I've done a bit of Tai Chi, and never once thought it was really contributing to fighting ability any more than the jazz dance classes I took back in college.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's a general definition without context.  By that definition anyone who is on a tennis court playing a game of tennis would be considered a tennis player even if you and I were to hit the ball into the net or off the court every time.  We would satisfy that definition each time so long as we are playing the game of tennis.
> 
> This is how Kung Fu masters get laid out on their backs.   They train Kung Fu and they think they are fighters and then they meet real fighters who defeat them with the most basic of skills.
> 
> ...


Okay, so you actually used the term "recreational tennis player". That term, in and of itself, suggests one can be a tennis player at a recreational level. Which is what I'd consider the time I spent on a tennis court in my 20's.

It's like when someone asks if I'm a golfer. I tell them I used to be, but haven't played in years. I was never competitive (except in amateur long-drive competitions), but I played a lot. I played golf, like I had once played tennis.

I guess I'm having trouble figuring out where your distinction is between "someone who plays tennis" and a "tennis player".


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Steve said:


> This is such an important point.  I make soap.  I enjoy it because it's part art and part science.  I don't sell it, and don't do it because I want to be the best soap maker around.  But I am very interested in making high quality soap.  And it would be (I think we can all agree) very strange to our ears if I said, "I'm not really worried about the soap being safe and effective, because I do it for other reasons."


Hmm...I'll think about that analogy a bit, but I don't think it quite covers the gamut of MA training. The easiest example is folks who "do Tai Chi" for health. That'd be like someone making candles out of the soap (if it would burn.....would it?).


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I missed the edit deadline!!
> 
> I forgot to say kicking with the heel solves all the problem, the heel does not buckle, it always stick in hard. The problem is you lose some height, much more importantly, you *LOSE like 5 to 6" of reach*, that really makes a difference. Also, your foot has to be flexible enough to get the front part of the foot out of the way, or else it will dissipate part of the energy and reduce the power of the kick at the heel.


And if you lack flexibility in the hamstrings (a lifetime issue for me), you lose effective height, as well. Even at my most flexible and active, my hamstrings acted like I never stretched.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> And while you're not concerned with being the best fighter around, you are concerned with at least being better than the average joe. I think we do ourselves a disservice in believing that the primary reason we're doing something has nothing to do with violence.


In terms of fighting the only thing I really care about is my ability to land a technique, escape from injury, escape from a situation I can't win.  The only exception for be getting my butt kicked is if it helps someone else to escape and even then, I'm thinking more about distraction and not being someone's punching bag.  

As for the primary reason.  That's up to the person training the system.  I have no control over that .  But what I do believe is that we do ourselves a disservice in believing that the primary reason for the fighting system is to be good at violence.  I embrace that and lecture students about that all the time.  This is why I'm not a big fan of schools that take functional martial arts and turned into a non-violent mentality.

I believe in balance and when they do that. They ignore the violence behind the system instead of balancing it out.  But that's just me.  Not a right or wrong issue for me.  Just a personal perspective.  But for the most part I agree with your statement.



Hanzou said:


> And keep in mind, when I say "fighting", I'm not saying getting in a ring and fight someone for a trophy.


Ahhh.. sorry I misunderstood you. then because that 's the perspective I thought you were speaking about "fighting"  That's where I was missing what you were meaning.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's interesting but I question what all of this functional training is for? It seems for show, more than anything else.


I forgot to reply to this one.   That's a can of worms there.  Because how one defines functional will change everything.There are some valid Jow Ga techniques that are done in forms competition, but if you translate them directly as you see it in the forms and in timing then you'll get knocked out.  I personally don't like that part about how some Jow Ga practitioners do their forms.  To me it just makes it confusing to have to decode everytthing.


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm...I'll think about that analogy a bit, but I don't think it quite covers the gamut of MA training. The easiest example is folks who "do Tai Chi" for health. That'd be like someone making candles out of the soap (if it would burn.....would it?).


I would say, if you're making candles out of soap, you're doing both wrong.  Also, for what it's worth, I don't think you can make a candle out of soap.  You might (don't know for sure) be able to do something chemically to turn soap into something that can be turned into a candle, but that's a bit of a stretch.  Soap is made from oils and lye, not wax, and so it isn't well suited for that purpose.  

Now that I think about it, maybe tai chi is like a soap candle.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And if you lack flexibility in the hamstrings (a lifetime issue for me), you lose effective height, as well. Even at my most flexible and active, my hamstrings acted like I never stretched.


I am ok at this department, at least I can touch my toes. The problem is if I kick higher with the ball of the foot, I cannot penetrate as the angle is too steep. It just slide up the heavy bag instead of penetrate into the bag. I try to raise my knee as high as possible, it helps a little, but still not quite good enough. I want to kick to the opponent's solarplex......which is higher than mine!!! 

If I kick in the air, I can kick higher. I can kick close to my own neck. I am sure if flexibility is my problem, I would put much more effort to stretch, but that's not my problem, my problem is lag of penetration when kicking high. If only I am flexible enough to kick to the jaw, then it's a different story, then it would be like an upper cut where the direction of hitting is upward. But I don't have that flexibility and height.

I am only 5'5", obviously my leg is shorter too!! so it makes it hard to kick high. Opponent's solarplex is my chest high!!! There comes my problem. Again  !!!


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am only 5'5", obviously my leg is shorter too!! so it makes it hard to kick high. Opponent's solarplex is my chest high!!! There comes my problem. Again  !!!


So kick only as high as yours. Problem solved. lol


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## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, so you actually used the term "recreational tennis player". That term, in and of itself, suggests one can be a tennis player at a recreational level. Which is what I'd consider the time I spent on a tennis court in my 20's.
> 
> It's like when someone asks if I'm a golfer. I tell them I used to be, but haven't played in years. I was never competitive (except in amateur long-drive competitions), but I played a lot. I played golf, like I had once played tennis.
> 
> I guess I'm having trouble figuring out where your distinction is between "someone who plays tennis" and a "tennis player".


I’m reading as any “Tennis Player” with a capital T and P is someone who competes on a professional level.  Then a tennis player with small t and p is a person who plays for fun, may become quite skilled, but is never on the same level as a pro.  The very skilled amateur is unlikely to beat the pro, who trains to be a pro.

Same thing with martial arts.  Lots of people can train for the enjoyment of training, and develop very functional skills that they can use quite effectively.  But a pro fighter trains on a higher level, with greater dedication.  Very few people train to that level, if they are not a pro.  Pros make up a very small minority of the overall population of martial artist.  So a very skilled “hobbies/amateur/recreational” (most of us, by far), whatever label you want to use, would be unlikely to beat a pro in the very very unlikely Chance they they might find themselves in a self-defense scenario against a pro.

But against most other folks, they have the skills to hold the line.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think we're acres apart on this. The main difference I see is that you don't think it's possible for someone to choose something like martial arts without being interested in being able to actually use the techniques for the original purpose. I just don't agree with that. I suspect there are large numbers of folks in Shin-Shin Toitsu who really have little to no interest in the martial application. The wording on the main organization website (which seems to entirely lack reference to self-defense or fighting) suggests that population exists. And I don't think it requires they are dishonest to make that claim. Lots of people practice "Tai Chi", which is derived from (and maybe even an accurate subset of) Taiji Chuan, as I understand it. And none of the old folks I've met who "do Tai Chi" ever once referred to self-defense as a purpose. Many of them may not know it's derived from a martial art. I've done a bit of Tai Chi, and never once thought it was really contributing to fighting ability any more than the jazz dance classes I took back in college.



Can we actually consider Shin-Shin Toitsu a martial art though? It's also known as Japanese yoga.

And yeah, I know there are people who practice Tai Chi, and have no interest in using it for self defense purposes. However, Tai Chi in many cases is NOT advertised as a martial art, it's advertised as an exercise that old folks can do in parks and improve their health.

We're not really talking about stuff like that though. We're talking about actual Martial Art styles that can supposedly teach you how to disable someone with a kick above the kneecap.


----------



## Steve (Sep 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m reading as any “Tennis Player” with a capital T and P is someone who competes on a professional level.  Then a tennis player with small t and p is a person who plays for fun, may become quite skilled, but is never on the same level as a pro.  The very skilled amateur is unlikely to beat the pro, who trains to be a pro.
> 
> Same thing with martial arts.  Lots of people can train for the enjoyment of training, and develop very functional skills that they can use quite effectively.  But a pro fighter trains on a higher level, with greater dedication.  Very few people train to that level, if they are not a pro.  Pros make up a very small minority of the overall population of martial artist.  So a very skilled “hobbies/amateur/recreational” (most of us, by far), whatever label you want to use, would be unlikely to beat a pro in the very very unlikely Chance they they might find themselves in a self-defense scenario against a pro.
> 
> But against most other folks, they have the skills to hold the line.


Even the most casual of hobbyist tennis players play tennis.  Some... many hobbyist martial artists don't or can't "martial".

And if you're running a school or taking other people's money, you are by definition a professional...  you should be competent.

To put a fine point on it, sure a lot of people train for enjoyment, and develop very functional skills that they can use quite effectively.  We see this all the time in BJJ and other similar arts.  We're not talking about those folks.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 9, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If I kick in the air, I can kick higher. I can kick close to my own neck. I am sure if flexibility is my problem, I would put much more effort to stretch, but that's not my problem, my problem is lag of penetration when kicking high. If only I am flexible enough to kick to the jaw, then it's a different story, then it would be like an upper cut where the direction of hitting is upward. But I don't have that flexibility and height.


So here's the thing. There's a limit on how high can kick effectively, and your height doesn't have as much to do with that limit as you might think. Core strength is key. There is a pretty easy way to see what that limit is.
Lift and extend your leg as you would if you were throwing the kick, but slowly. Extend it fully. Lift it (maintaining proper body position) as high as you can. Lift it, don't throw it. However high you can hold the foot, that is the highest you can kick with full power. The further your target is above that point, the weaker your kick will be.


Alan0354 said:


> I am only 5'5", obviously my leg is shorter too!! so it makes it hard to kick high. Opponent's solarplex is my chest high!!! There comes my problem. Again  !!!


So work on your core. You can also shorten your opponent.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> In terms of fighting the only thing I really care about is my ability to land a technique, escape from injury, escape from a situation I can't win.  The only exception for be getting my butt kicked is if it helps someone else to escape and even then, I'm thinking more about distraction and not being someone's punching bag.
> 
> As for the primary reason.  That's up to the person training the system.  I have no control over that .  But what I do believe is that we do ourselves a disservice in believing that the primary reason for the fighting system is to be good at violence.  I embrace that and lecture students about that all the time.  This is why I'm not a big fan of schools that take functional martial arts and turned into a non-violent mentality.




In short, you're trained to protect yourself utilizing violence. Yeah, it can be self defense, but you're still utilizing violence to end violence. When you say "the ONLY thing I really care about is my ability to land a technique", what you're actually saying is that you want your blow to have the desired effect on your would be assailant. Tell me, when you kick someone in the face, what's the desired effect? When you punch someone in the ribs, what's the desired effect? It certainly isn't to make them feel good. 

I mean in all seriousness, you're dedicating years of your life attempting to perfect a method of fighting, and you don't consider yourself a fighter?




JowGaWolf said:


> I believe in balance and when they do that. They ignore the violence behind the system instead of balancing it out.  But that's just me.  Not a right or wrong issue for me.  Just a personal perspective.  But for the most part I agree with your statement.
> 
> 
> Ahhh.. sorry I misunderstood you. then because that 's the perspective I thought you were speaking about "fighting"  That's where I was missing what you were meaning.



You teach your students a non-violent philosophy in order to prevent them from taking the violence that you're teaching them, and using it on other people without provocation. This occurs in all martial arts.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> In short, you're trained to protect yourself utilizing violence. Yeah, it can be self defense, but you're still utilizing violence to end violence. When you say "the ONLY thing I really care about is my ability to land a technique", what you're actually saying is that you want your blow to have the desired effect on your would be assailant.


That is not what I'm saying.  Think of it this way.

If your techniques cannot land on me then how do you expect to get desirable results?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Steve said:


> Even the most casual of hobbyist tennis players play tennis. Some... many hobbyist martial artists don't or can't "martial"


They can martial, just not at the level of fighting function.  They have the ability to do the image of war, but not the function of war.



Steve said:


> And if you're running a school or taking other people's money, you are by definition a professional... you should be competent.


This is true.  But your competence is not your student's competence.  At least I hope not lol.  Just because Mike Tyson is your coach doesn't mean you will be as great as Mike Tyson.  There's a possibility that you may be worse with Mike Tyson than with someone who is competent but lacks Mike Tyson's ability.  This is a big error that Kung Fu student make when they brag about their lineage.  They think being in the lineage some house will naturally make them a competent fighter.

But over all the teacher should be competent of what they teach even though they may not be the best fighter. By the way. I'm not disagreeing with your comment.  I'm just adding the variables.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can also shorten your opponent.


exactly


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You teach your students a non-violent philosophy in order to prevent them from taking the violence that you're teaching them, and using it on other people without provocation. This occurs in all martial arts.


I don't teach non-violent philosophy in my classes.  I only say 2 quotes.:
1. To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself.
2. Strike your enemies nose and let them drown on their own blood.

I also teach them not to let their emotion dictate control their violence.  One of my personal sayings is "Your emotions should be like those you have when you step on an ant.  You are neither mad, sad, or afraid.  You just do it.  Step on it without any thought of it's existence or the value of it.

Emotions lead people to do stupid things especially when it comes to violence.   It clouds the mind and the the body's actions.  Look at the Chaos in the U.S. driving by anger, distrusts, fear, and jealousy.  All of that clouds the mind and the actions.  Sort of like when people here push someone's button. You get an instant reaction born of emotion and not thought.   I'm not perfect, it happens to me sometimes too.  But at least when it happens to me, I eventually become aware of it and start to correct my path.  Those who don't become aware of it will continue to let those emotions dictate thinking and action.

The first thing I do to eat away of the misconceptions that my student had was to simply say.  There is no peace from Violence in martial arts which is why some of the techniques break bones.  Then I ask them to name one Jow Ga technique that is designed to make your opponent happy.

I rather embrace violence so that I'm aware of my own "monster" that needs to be controlled, than to teach non-violence philosophies about a martial arts systems designed to harm others.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Functional training is just that.  The ability to use the skill sets and techniques being taught.
> 
> 
> I haven't trained with swords yet but it's on the list.   I'm currently training with my Son to be functional with staff fighting.  This doesn't mean that I'm training to be a martial arts staff fighter.  It just means I'm learning to be functional with the staff skills that I can use them if I need them.  I find enjoyment that my staff skills are not just for show, that I can actually be functional with them.
> ...



Thanks for the explanation.

If I wanted to learn & spar full power with staff (something that I'm really interested in & know nothing about), what would be the minimal safety gear requirement?  Are those guys in the video, wearing specifically made armor for such sparring?  This might be a stupid question, but what about motorcycle armor? I don't own neither, so I'm just wondering in case I get a motorcycle and then would have a dual purpose, purchase.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 9, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Exept the chamber snap kicking style works for quite a few people.
> 
> Especially the question mark kick. Which has become a staple mma move.
> 
> ...




True that the Question Mark kick is chambering it.  I just meant the staple, roundhouse kick; MT style that many TKD's that I run into, do not seem to want to transition to.  It's like, I don't go to a TKD school and insist on throwing RH's kicks my MT way; I will do what they tell me to if I wanted to learn TKD.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Steve said:


> Now that I think about it, maybe tai chi is like a soap candle.


lol I blame you for the last 30 minutes of watching soap and candle videos lol. There are some really crazy things out there.  I did however enjoy the video of a Professional Soap maker sharing her thoughts about the Soap making videos on youtube.  Based on her reaction, there appears to be a lot of crap on youtube. 🤣


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Example,  This may be considered as Fluff in MT
> 
> This may be considered as fluff in Boxing
> 
> Some may consider this fluff.  No one fights like this; so the techniques must be fluff right?



To be fair though, there are certain degrees of fluff. Most TMA's have way too much fluff.

Like Capoeira can work, but there's way too much fluff. A lot of it wastes energy & are way too risky in a real fight.

The Muay Thai Wai Kru I wouldn't do b/c that's Asian mysticism. It's also not mandatory, in general. 

While those Boxers are clearly feinting, albeit via showboating....pure awesomeness if you ask me. That joint works.

BTW, would you be able to tell what style of Kung-Fu is this dude?  Thanks.  Lanham Kids Martial Arts Instructors - Dragon Academy Of Martial Arts - Lanham , Maryland   (Shifu Sean Sexton)


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> If I wanted to learn & spar full power with staff (something that I'm really interested in & know nothing about), what would be the minimal safety gear requirement?


I would like to know too.  From what I can tell,  This is what's needed:
1. Control
2. Lighter staff or rules of no head shots or attacking the joints
3. Full body equipment from head to toe.  The stuff you probably need and is reliable is probably super expensive unless you are rich.  I'm not lol.

If you don't get lighter staffs that flex then there's no way you can do full contact with a staff safely.  There's a couple of videos of people sparring with full body protection and their staff's still have a lot of flex.





Kung Fu weapons sparring





I don't care for the foam sparring weapons, they tend to cause people to do things that they wouldn't do if it were a live blade.  I would definitely do #1 and #2 No strikes to the head or controlled strikes.

Maybe this if you go full contact foam bo staff and some protective equipment.





For the armor I would wear equipment designed for blunt impact.  Unfortunately there's no dedicated company for this type of equipment.  people tend to mix match martial arts or fencing protective equipment. Or lacrosse equipment.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Like Capoeira can work, but there's way too much fluff. A lot of it wastes energy & are way too risky in a real fight.


what if what you see as waste of energy is actually cardio and muscle endurance exercises not meant as fighting techniques but are used to help build fighting endurance.  If that's the case would you still call it fluff?   I'm not saying that's what it is, but in Jow Ga we integrate muscle training and muscle endurance in our forms.  I know this because my legs will start burning, a get slower as my body fatigues and I breath really heavy from the cardio.  I have some Jow Ga videos of a forms performance you can hear people in the background say.  "Come on, push through, finish strong." They are saying that because they can see the person starting to fatigue.  

This was always a thing of amusement of how a form could just zap the strength out you.  And it never gets easier.  Each form burns you out more than the previous form.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> To be fair though, there are certain degrees of fluff. Most TMA's have way too much fluff.
> 
> Like Capoeira can work, but there's way too much fluff. A lot of it wastes energy & are way too risky in a real fight.
> 
> ...


Tien Shan Pai, according to his bio.  Also claims a background in taiji of some kind,  boxing, jujitsu of some kind.  Is this an example of something you would like is to look at?


JowGaWolf said:


> what if what you see as waste of energy is actually cardio and muscle endurance exercises not meant as fighting techniques but are used to help build fighting endurance.  If that's the case would you still call it fluff?   I'm not saying that's what it is, but in Jow Ga we integrate muscle training and muscle endurance in our forms.  I know this because my legs will start burning, a get slower as my body fatigues and I breath really heavy from the cardio.  I have some Jow Ga videos of a forms performance you can hear people in the background say.  "Come on, push through, finish strong." They are saying that because they can see the person starting to fatigue.
> 
> This was always a thing of amusement of how a form could just zap the strength out you.  And it never gets easier.  Each form burns you out more than the previous form.


When I was actively and obsessively training capoeira, I was in the best physical shape of my life.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> BTW, would you be able to tell what style of Kung-Fu is this dude? Thanks. Lanham Kids Martial Arts Instructors - Dragon Academy Of Martial Arts - Lanham , Maryland (Shifu Sean Sexton)


I can't tell what style they do and they don't say what type they do other than Tai Chi.   They say they come from the Dennis Brown school which I assume they are talking about the one in Washington DC.   I'm not big on Kung Fu schools having Black Belts  but that's just me and my old ways I guess.  I think Dennis Brown does Shoalin and Wu Shu.  So I'm not sure why they don't put that front and center.   Maybe they did but I missed it.  Gotta get my mile walk in for tonight.  I'll take a look at the rest. later


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That is not what I'm saying.  Think of it this way.
> 
> If your techniques cannot land on me then how do you expect to get desirable results?



Dude, you're literally saying that you spend your time perfecting punching and kicking so that when you actually hit someone with intent you will injure, disable, or even kill them. You're even saying that you tell your students to let people drown in their own blood if they mess with them. Heck, you started this thread by being ecstatic about someone getting their knee possibly blown out because it resembled a kick from Kung fu.

Yet somehow you guys aren't like those Muay Thai guys right? Nah, you're all about "more than just fighting"! In reality you aren't. You just pad what you're doing with a bunch of fluff. Your goals are exactly the same as anyone else.

You're backing up everything I'm saying, you just don't want to admit it.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> BTW, would you be able to tell what style of Kung-Fu is this dude?  Thanks.  Lanham Kids Martial Arts Instructors - Dragon Academy Of Martial Arts - Lanham , Maryland   (Shifu Sean Sexton)



Supposedly it's Tien Shan Pai. A northern style of Kung Fu.

And it's also supposedly all BS;








						Tien Shan Pai Exposed
					

Tien Shan Pai Kung Fu




					sites.google.com


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m reading as any “Tennis Player” with a capital T and P is someone who competes on a professional level.  Then a tennis player with small t and p is a person who plays for fun, may become quite skilled, but is never on the same level as a pro.  The very skilled amateur is unlikely to beat the pro, who trains to be a pro.
> 
> Same thing with martial arts.  Lots of people can train for the enjoyment of training, and develop very functional skills that they can use quite effectively.  But a pro fighter trains on a higher level, with greater dedication.  Very few people train to that level, if they are not a pro.  Pros make up a very small minority of the overall population of martial artist.  So a very skilled “hobbies/amateur/recreational” (most of us, by far), whatever label you want to use, would be unlikely to beat a pro in the very very unlikely Chance they they might find themselves in a self-defense scenario against a pro.
> 
> But against most other folks, they have the skills to hold the line.


That works as a distinction for me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Can we actually consider Shin-Shin Toitsu a martial art though? It's also known as Japanese yoga.
> 
> And yeah, I know there are people who practice Tai Chi, and have no interest in using it for self defense purposes. However, Tai Chi in many cases is NOT advertised as a martial art, it's advertised as an exercise that old folks can do in parks and improve their health.
> 
> We're not really talking about stuff like that though. We're talking about actual Martial Art styles that can supposedly teach you how to disable someone with a kick above the kneecap.


Sorry, I should have been clearer. Shin-shin Toitsu is also a style of Aikido (heavily influenced by the yoga style it takes the name from) - it's where Kohei took Aikido when he left the Aikikai.

My point about Tai Chi was that it's an offshoot from a MA. It was taken to a non-martial place by folks who wanted to use that martial art for something distinctly besides developing fighting skill. And now that's what it's best known for among the general public (though the full martial art does still exist).


----------



## Steve (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> They can martial, just not at the level of fighting function.  They have the ability to do the image of war, but not the function of war.
> 
> 
> This is true.  But your competence is not your student's competence.  At least I hope not lol.  Just because Mike Tyson is your coach doesn't mean you will be as great as Mike Tyson.  There's a possibility that you may be worse with Mike Tyson than with someone who is competent but lacks Mike Tyson's ability.  This is a big error that Kung Fu student make when they brag about their lineage.  They think being in the lineage some house will naturally make them a competent fighter.
> ...


I’m not talking about the instructor’s students though. I’m talking about the instructor. I don’t really know what to say about the “appearance of war”.  That makes no sense to me, unless you think acting is a martial art if it involves the appearance of fighting.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can't tell what style they do and they don't say what type they do other than Tai Chi.   They say they come from the Dennis Brown school which I assume they are talking about the one in Washington DC.   I'm not big on Kung Fu schools having Black Belts  but that's just me and my old ways I guess.  I think Dennis Brown does Shoalin and Wu Shu.  So I'm not sure why they don't put that front and center.   Maybe they did but I missed it.  Gotta get my mile walk in for tonight.  I'll take a look at the rest. later


4th degree black belt and kung fu  (unknown)  3rd degree black belt in Tai chi (I never hear of belts in Tai Chi, but maybe things changed).  Saw the rest of the video I was looking at.  it looks like Wushu. 

This is Dennis Brown





I took a look at Dennis Brown school and I didn't see any mention of a belt system.  His students weren't wearing belts either.  Which would be the norm for Kung Fu.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> 4th degree black belt and kung fu  (unknown)  3rd degree black belt in Tai chi (I never hear of belts in Tai Chi, but maybe things changed).  Saw the rest of the video I was looking at.  it looks like Wushu.
> 
> This is Dennis Brown


His bio says Tien Shen Pai.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Steve said:


> I’m not talking about the instructor’s students though. I’m talking about the instructor. I don’t really know what to say about the “appearance of war”.  That makes no sense to me, unless you think acting is a martial art if it involves the appearance of fighting.


I was referring to the instructor as well when I said they should be competent.  I agree with that 100%.   "The appearance of war." refers to those who make others think they are tougher than what they are capable of.  For example, the guy that walks around looking tough and bragging about who he beat and how many.  He may be built muscular but it's all just the appearance. There is little or no substance to support it. 

This is the appearance of "Martial"  they can do this.  Notice it says "Fighting Demonstration"    So yeah they can do the "Martial" but there's a good chance it's not functional.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> His bio says Tien Shen Pai.


Thanks.  I went to the instructors page but didn't realize his name was a link


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> His bio says Tien Shen Pai.


I wonder if this is him.  Just by looking at the comfort that he moves. It looks like he knows his stuff.  He pulls the hair and then throws a punch.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

yep. he just keeps pecking away that that stance


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Dude, you're literally saying that you spend your time perfecting punching and kicking so that when you actually hit someone with intent you will injure, disable, or even kill them.


Again no.  I spend my time learning how to land Jow Ga techniques against resisting and attacking opponents.  No one I have sparred has been disabled, or died. lol.  

The thing that I practice to learn how to injure people deals more with how to drive power.  I can land a technique but if it has no power then it won't injure.   I do not practice generating power in sparring or with students.  I use other methods to develop power and different methods to develop speed.  Your brain is probably about to explode right about now lol.



Hanzou said:


> Yet somehow you guys aren't like those Muay Thai guys right? Nah, you're all about "more than just fighting"! In reality you aren't. You just pad what you're doing with a bunch of fluff. Your goals are exactly the same as anyone else.


In Jow Ga ,and I believe most traditional martial arts,  We are closer to this version of Muay Thai





1. Train forms
2. Understand Applications in forms - All students are randomly quizzed to explain application from the form
3. Drill Application - This is where most kung fu students stop.

4. Spar - At this point you have a handful that are serious about this.

5. Spar using technique from Drill

6. Spar using technique from Form - At this point you only get those who want to venture into fighting function of the system.  Most of the people you see doing kung fu sparring or fighting are not at this level.

7. Spar using variation of technique application.


The majority of kung fu students are happy with 1 - 3. 

To show you just how similar.  





Muay Thai Boran has a Punching form.  Jow Ga has a punching form.  I will give you the kung Fu equivalent the techniques here.
@:36 Lead jab or in Jow Ga simply "punch" I've shown videos of this training my son.  In Jow Ga we do not cover our head with the other hand.

@ :49 in Jow Ga and other systems lead punch into thrust punch.

@ :1:23  Jow Ga and other systems  Reverse punch

@ 2:00  Jow Ga and other systems  Hammer fist.

@ 2:19  uppercut Jow Ga and some other systems Pow Choy. We can throw single has show or use a big wheel motion.

@2:42  overhand  In Jow Ga Kup Choy But we do not hit with the knuckles that they are striking with, but it takes the same path.  Some of you guys in this forum may have seen me do similar punches in my videos.

@3:18  In Jow Ga this would be a Luk Choy

@3:26  Same punch they are just doubling up on it.

@3:36  Jow Ga this is a Pow Choy to the body

@4:12 Pak Guerk.  This is a very common kick in Chinese martial arts.

@ 4:56 Double punches.  We have one that is horizontal and one that is vertical like this but it's practiced in horse stance in the form I don't remember I don't think it's in any of the forms I know.  Maybe it's in some of the advanced forms

@ 5:31. Shadowless kick with punch  similar to the video below.






We are far from the Muay Thai that you have in mind.











.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Sorry, I should have been clearer. Shin-shin Toitsu is also a style of Aikido (heavily influenced by the yoga style it takes the name from) - it's where Kohei took Aikido when he left the Aikikai.
> 
> My point about Tai Chi was that it's an offshoot from a MA. It was taken to a non-martial place by folks who wanted to use that martial art for something distinctly besides developing fighting skill. And now that's what it's best known for among the general public (though the full martial art does still exist).



Indeed. However, my point is that when you’re taking up Tai Chi, very rarely is it advertised as a fighting art. It’s almost always advertised as an exercise to improve health. 

On the other hand, Aikido for example is still pushed as a method of self defense. I’ve even seen some schools state that Aikido can help you overcome multiple attackers.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Supposedly it's Tien Shan Pai. A northern style of Kung Fu.
> 
> And it's also supposedly all BS;
> 
> ...


From some of the things I saw, it looks like Dean Chin (Jow Ga) knew of the school.  Looks like their schools were one of the few Kung Fu schools around back then.  I wonder if any of the old Jow Ga students back then remember this school.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Again no.  I spend my time learning how to land Jow Ga techniques against resisting and attacking opponents.  No one I have sparred has been disabled, or died. lol.



Wow… Clearly I’m not talking about when you’re sparring with your classmates, I’m talking about when you’re applying your technique against an assailant.

Hence YOUR statement that you tell your students to strike their attackers nose and let them drown in their own blood. That sounds like disabling and possibly killing someone to me. 



JowGaWolf said:


> The thing that I practice to learn how to injure people deals more with how to drive power.  I can land a technique but if it has no power then it won't injure.   I do not practice generating power in sparring or with students.  I use other methods to develop power and different methods to develop speed.  Your brain is probably about to explode right about now lol.



 Nothing you’re saying here disagrees with anything that I said in my response. Again, you’re backing up everything I said about you and your system.



JowGaWolf said:


> In Jow Ga ,and I believe most traditional martial arts,  We are closer to this version of Muay Thai
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What’s the point of these irrelevant tangents? Yeah, I know your style is more similar to the traditional version of Muay Thai; the version that (like your Kung Fu system)is loaded with more  fluff than the more modern (and frankly more effective) version of  Muay Thai


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Hence YOUR statement that you tell your students to strike their attackers nose and let them drown in their own blood. That sounds like disabling and possibly killing someone to me.


The truth of those quotes is about the mindset one should have when being violently attacked on the streets.  So if I attack you in the streets, this is the mindset that you should have towards my well-being in the context of defending yourself.  It doesn't take into consideration your ability.  Even if you don't know how to fight.  This is the mindset or the seriousness in which you should defend yourself against me.  It doesn't mean you are going to make me drown in my blood, but you will attack me with that level of violence.

One's ability to do so is another issue.  This is why these quotes are associated with the mindset that a person should have when dealing with a violent attacker.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 9, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Supposedly it's Tien Shan Pai. A northern style of Kung Fu.
> 
> And it's also supposedly all BS;
> 
> ...



Thanks. Yeah, that's it, now I remember that he said something like that.

This guy's legit though. I sparred with him at a sparring meet of any style; it was just light sparring and he's good. This was right after I beat one of his top guys both standup and on the ground. They have some interesting angles & movements.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2021)

Ok. Mindset for a deadly street attack. 

Is to adopt the role of a boring percentage fighter. Damage is secondary. 

If you can be positioned where you are safe and where his weapons are shut down. Stay there.

It is when you get excited and go for those bombs that you open yourself to a mayday counter or a sweep.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 9, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> When I was actively and obsessively training capoeira, I was in the best physical shape of my life.



Very true. Our gym had a very large Capoeira program of at least 50 students. 90% of the people were in very, very, very good shape. Maybe 5% a little chubby when they first started; but def. none of that fat BJJ Black Belts in da house, haha....although they're still killers (and just a few biggums). Lots of pretty girls and very social of a club so lots of BJJ & MT guys joined.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> what if what you see as waste of energy is actually cardio and muscle endurance exercises not meant as fighting techniques but are used to help build fighting endurance.  If that's the case would you still call it fluff?   I'm not saying that's what it is, but in Jow Ga we integrate muscle training and muscle endurance in our forms.  I know this because my legs will start burning, a get slower as my body fatigues and I breath really heavy from the cardio.  I have some Jow Ga videos of a forms performance you can hear people in the background say.  "Come on, push through, finish strong." They are saying that because they can see the person starting to fatigue.
> 
> This was always a thing of amusement of how a form could just zap the strength out you.  And it never gets easier.  Each form burns you out more than the previous form.



I'd rather work on my strikes for speed, power, precision, etc.   Our gym is Brazilian owned so there was a Capoeira class of over 50 students by a Brazilian lady who's pretty well known.  Man, they can't fight at all, unless they were crossover dudes from MT/MMA looking to pickup Capoeira girls (that were smokin') and some really good looking gay dudes too. It's just rare that they can use that in a fight.

I'm sure these techs aren't bad, but I'd rather spend my time & energy on something else. I'll do some Yoga once in a while, but not as a staple of my training. But Capoeira looks fun though, so maybe; although I can't train for free any longer since it's no longer at our gym, so I ain't paying for it.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would like to know too.  From what I can tell,  This is what's needed:
> 1. Control
> 2. Lighter staff or rules of no head shots or attacking the joints
> 3. Full body equipment from head to toe.  The stuff you probably need and is reliable is probably super expensive unless you are rich.  I'm not lol.
> ...



Thanks again.

So something like those Kendo helmets can't take the full force of a full, non flexing staff?  

Looks like it's more involved and expensive than I thought. 

There are Medieval groups (SCA) that wear full metal armor and hit with full power. I heard that it doesn't hurt with that $2-5k armor on. 

Don't discount foam swords though; just treat it like the real thing and not want to get hit at all.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's about time, but not really.



You said it.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The truth of those quotes is about the mindset one should have when being violently attacked on the streets.  So if I attack you in the streets, this is the mindset that you should have towards my well-being in the context of defending yourself.  It doesn't take into consideration your ability.  Even if you don't know how to fight.  This is the mindset or the seriousness in which you should defend yourself against me.  It doesn't mean you are going to make me drown in my blood, but you will attack me with that level of violence.
> 
> One's ability to do so is another issue.  This is why these quotes are associated with the mindset that a person should have when dealing with a violent attacker.



Yes, and you're training constantly in an effort to increase your ability to deal violence onto someone else.

Back to the original point that started all of this; The Muay Thai fighter is more efficient at dealing violence than your typical Kung Fu stylist, because the latter simply has more fluff surrounding their training. However, both exponents are training towards the same goal; to be better fighters.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Thanks. Yeah, that's it, now I remember that he said something like that.
> 
> This guy's legit though. I sparred with him at a sparring meet of any style; it was just light sparring and he's good. This was right after I beat one of his top guys both standup and on the ground. They have some interesting angles & movements.



Not BS in terms of skill, but BS in terms of what their original teacher actually taught. It would appear that their grandmaster never actually learned the art he said he did, but he was good at martial arts in general. Some of his other disciples dropped the Tien Shien whatever and just said that they had learned Tai Chi or general Kung Fu.

Unfortunately that's fairly common in traditional Chinese and Japanese martial arts. Fortunately these guys at least seem to have some skill attached.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm sure these techs aren't bad, but I'd rather spend my time & energy on something else.


Probably why most of use are doing something else. lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> You said it.


How's it going Oily?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> So something like those Kendo helmets can't take the full force of a full, non flexing staff?


Nope.  Kendo helmets are used for lighter weapons.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Indeed. However, my point is that when you’re taking up Tai Chi, very rarely is it advertised as a fighting art. It’s almost always advertised as an exercise to improve health.
> 
> On the other hand, Aikido for example is still pushed as a method of self defense. I’ve even seen some schools state that Aikido can help you overcome multiple attackers.


That's why I specifically mentioned Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. There probably are some who teach it as a fighting style, but I haven't seen that wording in the stuff I've read. I'd have a hard time not classifying it as a martial art, but it seems to be almost entirely not about physical conflict at this point.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> This guy's legit though. I sparred with him at a sparring meet of any style; it was just light sparring and he's good.


He moved like he knew what he was doing.  He also tried some things that I rarely see kung fu people try unless they had some applicable advanced skills. Foot hooks are rarely shown outside of a demo and a non-resisting demo partner.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That's why I specifically mentioned Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. There probably are some who teach it as a fighting style, but I haven't seen that wording in the stuff I've read. I'd have a hard time not classifying it as a martial art, but it seems to be almost entirely not about physical conflict at this point.



There appears to be a lot of stuff like this;


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> There appears to be a lot of stuff like this;
> 
> View attachment 27249


I really have not been following this thread, I said what I want to say already.

BUT THIS!!!  This is what really really turn me off about kung fu. I've seen* so many of those so called "master"* love to demo this kind of stuff, telling people to try him as if this is of any use in real fight.

Some stupid guy did that to Bruce Lee and tell Lee to push, Bruce Lee went over......and punched him, he went flying. You are talking about a fight!!! You kick and you punch. You don't set in the right way and people push the way you want them to.

even over here, after I learned TKD, me and a friend went to watch a kung fu class, that teacher told me to do exactly the same thing. Me and my friend started smiling!!!!

*They talk too much, and BS too much*. Funny, my friend that was very good in Wing Chun and TKD back when I was in HK, he stuck out the left hand in the signature Wing Chun fighting stand and told us to push his hand and it won't move. But then you see in UFC 2, the Wing Chun guy used the same stand, did he got taken down in the first few seconds and got ground and pounded. Watch Xu Zaiodong beating the Wing Chun guy also, same thing.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Some stupid guy did that to Bruce Lee and tell Lee to push, Bruce Lee went over......and punched him, he went flying. You are talking about a fight!!! You kick and you punch. You don't set in the right way and people push the way you want them to.


Well no.  There was a group of kung fu guys talking about stance and rooting.  They were showing and testing stance and root, and pushing on each other to show how the root engages and how it works and is used in technique.  It was a more academic discussion.

In the middle of this, and without warning, Bruce punched one of them In the face, apparently to “prove a point,” which point is lost on me.  I guess he said something like “when I fight I punch, I don’t push,” which of course was not the point of the discussion.

so what Bruce did was be a Dick.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well no.  There was a group of kung fu guys talking about stance and rooting.  They were showing and testing stance and root, and pushing on each other to show how the root engages and how it works and is used in technique.  It was a more academic discussion.
> 
> In the middle of this, and without warning, Bruce punched one of them In the face, apparently to “prove a point,” which point is lost on me.  I guess he said something like “when I fight I punch, I don’t push,” which of course was not the point of the discussion.
> 
> so what Bruce did was be a Rick.


Yes, that's the whole point, you punch, you don't stand there and push. What is the stupid point of standing there so other people cannot push you? You face against a MMA or a boxer that dance around, stick and move, you get kill just standing there.

Why are the kung fu people so stupid and out of touch? Try learn something that can win a fight and they won't be a laughing stalk now.

AGAIN, learn how to win a fight in UFC, then you can talk until the cows come home. If not, shut up and learn.

AND PLEASE, do NOT give me the excuse those people in UFC are talented, that's why they are good fighter. You mean to tell me those kung fu is so bad they cannot attract any talented people at all?


AND DO NOT tell me people don't go fight in UFC because they don't get pay until they win enough. This is the SAME for everyone else, nobody get paid until they get up there in ranks. They ALL have to pay their own way to fight. STOP MAKING EXCUSES and go fight and win.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, that's the whole point, you punch, you don't stand there and push. What is the stupid point of standing there so other people cannot push you? You face against a MMA or a boxer that dance around, stick and move, you get kill just standing there.


it was an academic discussion about theory, not meant to be direct application at that moment. 

It is as if you and I are discussing technique, and in the middle of the discussion, without warning, in the middle of your sentence, I punch you in the face and tell you, “when I fight I punch, I don’t talk.”

doing that would make me a Dick.  That is what Bruce did.


----------



## Steve (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> it was an academic discussion about theory, not meant to be direct application at that moment.
> 
> It is as if you and I are discussing technique, and in the middle of the discussion, without warning, in the middle of your sentence, I punch you in the face and tell you, “when I fight I punch, I don’t talk.”
> 
> doing that would make me a Dick.  That is what Bruce did.


You can be a dick, and also be right.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> it was an academic discussion about theory, not meant to be direct application at that moment.
> 
> It is as if you and I are discussing technique, and in the middle of the discussion, without warning, in the middle of your sentence, I punch you in the face and tell you, “when I fight I punch, I don’t talk.”
> 
> doing that would make me a Dick.  That is what Bruce did.


To show how STUPID those kung fu people were?

I am surprise after 50 years, they still refuse to learn. Bruce Lee is just the first step to go to Mixed Martial Arts. Now MMA absolutely kick their butts, they resort to making excuses.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> To show how STUPID those kung fu people were?
> 
> I am surprise after 50 years, they still refuse to learn. Bruce Lee is just the first step to go to Mixed Martial Arts. Now MMA absolutely kick their butts, they resort to making excuses.


How does it show how stupid we are?  Do you ever break down technique and discuss the components and the theory?  Are you stupid too?


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Steve said:


> You can be a dick, and also be right.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.


Bruce Lee was like the forefront of MMA, he combined Tae Kwon Do(best kicking) and Boxing(best hands) with some Wing Chun( his origin). The MMA now added Muy Thai, BJJ and Wrestling to what Bruce Lee started.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> How does it show how stupid we are?  Do you ever break down technique and discuss the components and the theory?  Are you stupid too?


Stupid to stand there and let people push to show he cannot be moved. This is NOT one incident, I personally saw quite a few times. Why are they wasting time to even practice not being moved? Do they have a brain?

What is kung fu for? To kick butt, that's it. Don't make it anything else. Like I said many times, you want grace and artistic, go do ballet. MA is art of kicking butt. Two people walk in, one person walk out. Stop talking, train someone that is talent enough to use the kung fu style to win some fights in the octagon. AND stop making excuses.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Ha ha, if you really can just stand there and nobody can move you, you would have won in the first two UFC because Royce Gracie would not be able to take you down. Your style would have been known around the world instead Gracie BJJ dojo all over the place, it would be your schools all over the country. UFC would be training your style!!!


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Stupid to stand there and let people push to show he cannot be moved. This is NOT one incident, I personally saw quite a few times. Why are they wasting time to even practice not being moved? Do they have a brain?
> 
> What is kung fu for? To kick butt, that's it. Don't make it anything else. Like I said many times, you want grace and artistic, go do ballet. MA is art of kicking butt. Two people walk in, one person walk out. Stop talking, train someone that is talent enough to use the kung fu style to win some fights in the octagon. AND stop making excuses.


They were showing how root makes you stable, and then can be used to initiate powerful technique.  And again, it is discussion of theory and demonstration of the concept, which is not the same as display of direct combat application.  There is a difference there.  Are you able to understand that distinction?

I guess you were never taught this in your TKD training?  If it is simply outside of your experience then I can understand why it confuses you.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Stupid to stand there and let people push to show he cannot be moved.


One time a CMA guys said that he had strong rooting and cannot be moved. I got behind of him with my left arm surrounded his waist, I then extend my right arm between his groin, and lift him off the ground.

In Chinese wrestling, it's called "elephant nose embracing".


----------



## Steve (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> They were showing how root makes you stable, and then can be used to initiate powerful technique.  And again, it is discussion of theory and demonstration of the concept, which is not the same as display of direct combat application.  There is a difference there.  Are you able to understand that distinction?
> 
> I guess you were never taught this in your TKD training?  If it is simply outside of your experience then I can understand why it confuses you.


Okay. Hold on.  Isn't fighting outside of your experience?  I seem to recall once you declaring proudly that you had never even been in a schoolyard fight, and have zero practical experience fighting.  If I'm mistaken, let me know.  But I'm pretty sure I'm not.  

And if you've never been in a fight, why have you suddenly become so vocal about fighting?  And how can you possibly understand the distinction between fighting and anything?  You said earlier you couldn't possibly understand the point.  I think you should just stop there and move on.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> They were showing how root makes you stable, and then can be used to initiate powerful technique.  And again, it is discussion of theory and demonstration of the concept, which is not the same as display of direct combat application.  There is a difference there.  Are you able to understand that distinction?
> 
> I guess you were never taught this in your TKD training?  If it is simply outside of your experience then I can understand why it confuses you.


Are you able to understand about winning a fight? It is well know how to generate power in striking without resort to these stupid standing there and not to be pushed.

NO, We were never taught to stand firm and show off that nobody can move us!!! We only taught how to punch hard and kick hard by combine legs, hips, waist, shoulder together to generate power. We only learn how to synchronize the whole body to concentrate the power to one point to generate the maximum point to hit that point.

Is that what your kung fu taught you to stand there and not to be moved?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Are you able to understand about winning a fight? It is well know how to generate power in striking without resort to these stupid standing there and not to be pushed.
> 
> NO, We were never taught to stand firm and show off that nobody can move us!!! We only taught how to punch hard and kick hard by combine legs, hips, waist, shoulder together to generate power. We only learn how to synchronize the whole body to concentrate the power to one point to generate the maximum point to hit that point.
> 
> Is that what your kung fu taught you to stand there and not to be moved?


Ok, I understand that this is simply outside of your realm of experience.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, I understand that this is simply outside of your realm of experience.


I just learn you never been in a fight, and you lecturing me?🤣😂🤣🤣🤣

Before you say anything, I never declare to be an expert, I admit I only have 3 years of training. I just look at the result out there. I just saw how kung fu got their butts handed to them in UFC and for almost 30 years after they got whooped, all I hear is excuses why they cannot make it to UFC.

You make my case. All talk and no action. Talk fighting on paper.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> They were showing how root makes you stable, and then can be used to initiate powerful technique.  And again, it is discussion of theory and demonstration of the concept, which is not the same as display of direct combat application.  There is a difference there.  Are you able to understand that distinction?
> 
> I guess you were never taught this in your TKD training?  If it is simply outside of your experience then I can understand why it confuses you.



It isn't real though. They are acting.

Which is different again.

Tai chi did a few of those. Even flew in a k1 fighter to do a fake documentary and get manhandled by a tai chi guy.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It isn't real though. They are acting.
> 
> Which is different again.


There's a definite...thing...

Cognitive dissonance?

When you train in a martial art without any real resistance or 'playfighting' levels of resistance and start to believe in it..you drift away from reality. It's evident in many on this forum.

I was once that guy. 8 years of wing chun I walked into a Muay Thai gym that also offered BJJ. 1999 it was..before anyone was using the word MMA.

I believed in my training. In my system. Just like many of you do.

I got handled. Just like many of you would.

That's the year my real martial arts training began.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I really have not been following this thread, I said what I want to say already.
> 
> BUT THIS!!!  This is what really really turn me off about kung fu. I've seen* so many of those so called "master"* love to demo this kind of stuff, telling people to try him as if this is of any use in real fight.
> 
> ...


Rooting exercises are not about defending against a punch. What Lee did was as wrong as it would be if someone was demonstrating a basic single-leg drill, and he punched him without warning. 

Same if he did it during a basic boxing footwork drill


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It isn't real though. They are acting.
> 
> Which is different again.
> 
> Tai chi did a few of those. Even flew in a k1 fighter to do a fake documentary and get manhandled by a tai chi guy.


Not necessarily. Some of these exercises (I know them as “ki exercises“) produce significant effects, and that’s even with the small work I’ve done with them. They work the same way when the person pushing (“testing”) doesn’t know what’s supposed to happen.

They aren’t magic - just some cool body mechanics.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Ha ha, if you really can just stand there and nobody can move you, you would have won in the first two UFC because Royce Gracie would not be able to take you down. Your style would have been known around the world instead Gracie BJJ dojo all over the place, it would be your schools all over the country. UFC would be training your style!!!


They aren’t immovable. Just resistant in specific directions. It doesn’t work so fully in a dynamic situation, but helps some in certain grappling situations.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Are you able to understand about winning a fight? It is well know how to generate power in striking without resort to these stupid standing there and not to be pushed.
> 
> NO, We were never taught to stand firm and show off that nobody can move us!!! We only taught how to punch hard and kick hard by combine legs, hips, waist, shoulder together to generate power. We only learn how to synchronize the whole body to concentrate the power to one point to generate the maximum point to hit that point.
> 
> Is that what your kung fu taught you to stand there and not to be moved?


Drills differ in systems. Don’t like a drill, don’t train that system. No need to be an *** about it.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Not necessarily. Some of these exercises (I know them as “ki exercises“) produce significant effects, and that’s even with the small work I’ve done with them. They work the same way when the person pushing (“testing”) doesn’t know what’s supposed to happen.
> 
> They aren’t magic - just some cool body mechanics.



You would need to do a blind trial. And nobody would subject themselves to that.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Rooting exercises are not about defending against a punch. What Lee did was as wrong as it would be if someone was demonstrating a basic single-leg drill, and he punched him without warning.
> 
> Same if he did it during a basic boxing footwork drill


I've seen quite a few so called master asking people to push them, they think it's so important. Lee is making a point and he is right. They might be a lot better off spending more time learning how to fight than wasting time on this kind of stuff.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Drills differ in systems. Don’t like a drill, don’t train that system. No need to be an *** about it.


You read what I responded to? I am no more *** than who I responded to.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> They aren’t immovable. Just resistant in specific directions. It doesn’t work so fully in a dynamic situation, but helps some in certain grappling situations.


You have any video clips to show that?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I just learn you never been in a fight, and you lecturing me?🤣😂🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Before you say anything, I never declare to be an expert, I admit I only have 3 years of training. I just look at the result out there. I just saw how kung fu got their butts handed to them in UFC and for almost 30 years after they got whooped, all I hear is excuses why they cannot make it to UFC.
> 
> You make my case. All talk and no action. Talk fighting on paper.


Blah blah blah LOUD ANGRY NOISES blah blah blah…

maybe someday you will have something coherent to say.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Blah blah blah LOUD ANGRY NOISES blah blah blah…
> 
> maybe someday you will have something coherent to say.



😂  😂  🤣  🤣  😂  😂


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You would need to do a blind trial. And nobody would subject themselves to that.


Id have no problem with it, for the little bit I can still do (I’m very out of practice on most of it). The stuff I know is pretty straightforward mechanics. I assume much of the more impressive stuff is just being better at those or similar principles. I’ve done a couple of these at public demos, with folks who just volunteered, with no knowledge of what was to be demonstrated. 

I had a junior training partner who sometimes had to allow me to move him (he had more advanced experience with these principles from another style). I wasn’t aware of any of this in advance. He just one day didn’t move on some prettty standard Judo-style control. He told me about his training later, so no subconscious cooperating on my part. Learned a lot about good structure-breaking from him. 

Most of the stuff I know is interesting, but not very impressive, though the drills appear to be from the same base as the Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido drills.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I've seen quite a few so called master asking people to push them, they think it's so important. Lee is making a point and he is right. They might be a lot better off spending more time learning how to fight than wasting time on this kind of stuff.


Being able to stall a pushing movement matters in grappling. Or are you arguing grappling doesn’t prepare for fighting?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You have any video clips to show that?


No. If I still had playmates (students), I could put something together, though me 20 years ago would be much better at demoing it. I expect I can still do the most basic stuff.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I just learn you never been in a fight, and you lecturing me?🤣😂🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Before you say anything, I never declare to be an expert, I admit I only have 3 years of training. I just look at the result out there. I just saw how kung fu got their butts handed to them in UFC and for almost 30 years after they got whooped, all I hear is excuses why they cannot make it to UFC.
> 
> You make my case. All talk and no action. Talk fighting on paper.



I don't or wouldn't use the UFC for any points myself. 

They had to change the rules of no small joint locks because people like Ken Shamrock kept getting broken fingers and wrists and not able to continue. 

I am not defending any art per se. 
I am just saying I would not use that as a source. 

Note: I train and teach and use FMA, and they told The Dog Brothers Marc Denny that they were too rough for the sport. 
So by your logic if one is not training with a weapon in a FMA / SE Asian weapons art then one is not of value. 
Which as stated above by is not the point I am making. I just took your argument the rest of the way done the slope. 

It is that fighter on that day, they could be a good day or a bad day. The next day it could be different. 
Not the art / sport


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> me and a friend went to watch a kung fu class, that teacher told me to do exactly the same thing. Me and my friend started smiling!!!!


lol where do you hang out.  You run into more bad Kung Fu people than I thought possible.  The way I've been able to avoid the things you experience is to find a kung fu school that is practical.  If the school isn't practical about how they train and what they train then don't bother with that school.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> AGAIN, learn how to win a fight in UFC, then you can talk until the cows come home. If not, shut up and learn.


You mean like the side kick to the knee.  Learn stuff like that?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> What is kung fu for? To kick butt, that's it.


The original roots may be there.  But for a lot of people Kung Fu isn't for kicking but.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> tell Lee to push,


There is nothing wrong about push. As long as there is a pull associated with it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Being able to stall a pushing movement matters in grappling. Or are you arguing grappling doesn’t prepare for fighting?


Not sure what the other stuff is about but. This I agree with.  Not only stalling a pushing movement but redirecting that pushing energy.  I have tons of fighting examples of that.  Some from my sparring and some from professional fighting sports.  Being able to stall that incoming force is enough to keep from being knocked off balance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> To show how STUPID those kung fu people were?


- In boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- In CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a grab and pull.

- In TKD, a kick is just a kick.
- In CMA, a kick is a kick followed by a step in.

How can CMA be stupid?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> NO, We were never taught to stand firm and show off that nobody can move us!!!


This was actually part of my training in Jow Ga.  Before you call BS. Here's how the training went.

We were required to stand in various stances.  Horse, Cat, cross stance, and bow stance.  The goal was to hold the stance and not be moved when the teacher pushed us from various sides.  The purpose of this training was to maintain a strong and solid stance.  If you strike the correct balance then it should not be easy to be pushed off balance.  If you lean too far forward, back, or to the side, then you will easily fall off balance.  This is bad in grappling especially against systems that feel our your balance and exploit it.

I spar with my brother and he put me in a Muay Thai clinch and I immediately felt my balance disrupted.  I had no idea that my brother was able to do that.  I was impressed.  Now when I spar with him I make sure to hold my stance correctly as if he would exploit my balance if I let him.  

So in that aspect this is similar to what you think is fluff, with one exception.  We never claim that someone couldn't push us.  This wasn't the purpose of the exercise. Jow Ga will stay firm until it's better to flow and turn that person's energy against himself/herself.

My personal thoughts is that people took this type of stance training to the extreme and went beyond what it was designed for.  They made it more than what it was intended and such changed the focus.  From maintaining a strong stance to  "you can't push me."  Which was never the original purpose of the training to my knowledge.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You mean like the side kick to the knee.  Learn stuff like that?


Learn how to win instead of more excuses.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - In boxing, a punch is just a punch.
> - In CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a grab and pull.
> 
> - In TKD, a kick is just a kick.
> ...


CMA may be dirty (fighting) but it's definitely not stupid.  I'm always amazed a the understanding of body mechanics and human behavior that is displayed in CMA.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Rooting exercises are not about defending against a punch. What Lee did was as wrong as it would be if someone was demonstrating a basic single-leg drill, and he punched him without warning.
> 
> Same if he did it during a basic boxing footwork drill


During my demonstration, if you punch on my face, that will be my fault because I don't have enough alert.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This was actually part of my training in Jow Ga.  Before you call BS. Here's how the training went.
> 
> We were required to stand in various stances.  Horse, Cat, cross stance, and bow stance.  The goal was to hold the stance and not be moved when the teacher pushed us from various sides.  The purpose of this training was to maintain a strong and solid stance.  If you strike the correct balance then it should not be easy to be pushed off balance.  If you lean too far forward, back, or to the side, then you will easily fall off balance.  This is bad in grappling especially against systems that feel our your balance and exploit it.
> 
> ...


I have no idea how JowGa is, maybe it's exceptional. Yes, I saw too much of those BS. MA is a whole lot more popular in Hong Kong at the time, it's very easy to be exposed to MA. I've seen enough.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> CMA may be dirty (fighting) but it's definitely not stupid.  I'm always amazed a the understanding of body mechanics and human behavior that is displayed in CMA.


One day when I talked to a boxer that a hook punch can be used as a wrist grab, or downward parry to open the guard. He had no idea what I was talking about. I then realized that the huge boxing gloves can make some applications difficult to apply.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> To show how STUPID those kung fu people were?


CMA invent this 2 arms twisting training that I have not be able to find in any other MA system yet.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> I don't or wouldn't use the UFC for any points myself.
> 
> They had to change the rules of no small joint locks because people like Ken Shamrock kept getting broken fingers and wrists and not able to continue.
> 
> ...


I am more judging by the first few UFC where there's no rule other than no eyes gouging, no biting. It's very clear what style can stand up to the test and who cannot. Yes, there is more rules now, but still it's the closest to real fight.

I cannot relate to what you say about weapon in FMA. We are talking about bare knuckle fighting here only. Weapon is a different category. In fact the only reason I am here on this forum is because I recently picked up FMA stick fight using a cane because of my age. Bringing a cane into self defense against people with no weapon or even a small knife is a game changer because of the increase in reach of the cane and hit much harder with a cane. Actually I am practice the one using both hands on the cane, I forgot the name at the moment. It is FMA for sure. I have been watching different styles of stick fight and I find FMA is the best. I am still practicing hard on it.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> CMA invent this 2 arms twisting training that I have not be able to find in any other MA system yet.


For what?!!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> For what?!!


Are you serious?


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - In boxing, a punch is just a punch.
> - In CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a grab and pull.
> 
> - In TKD, a kick is just a kick.
> ...


*Noticing I am not endorsing TKD even I spent 3 years in it.* I* regret *putting so much effort result in injuring myself. TKD have very good kicks, but it's one dimensional. If I were to do it again, it definitely *not *TKD.

I am not one that blindly sticking to what I learn and defend what I learn, I OPEN my eyes and see and judge. It was the best choice at the time where I found a school that taught more kick boxing ( boxing hands and TKD kicks) rather than traditional TKD. But it's proven it's still not enough after watching UFC. UFC did not come into the scene until 10 years after I started TKD. So it's like crying spilled milk. If I were still learning TKD, I would QUIT right after I saw the first UFC fight!!! And learn BJJ and wrestling to add to TKD.

BUT TODAY, it's so clear what works and what doesn't.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you serious?


Yes, wasting time turning that thing!!!


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Learn how to win instead of more excuses.


Who me?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am not one that blindly sticking to what I learn and defend what I learn, I OPEN my eyes and see and judge. It was the best choice at the time where I found a school that taught more kick boxing ( boxing hands and TKD kicks) rather than traditional TKD. But it's proven it's still not enough after watching UFC. UFC did not come into the scene until 10 years after I started TKD. So it's like crying spilled milk. If I were still learning TKD, I would QUIT right after I saw the first UFC fight!!! And learn BJJ and wrestling to add to TKD.


News flash.  Even if you trained MMA there's no guarantee that you would be good at it.  Just saying.  Training MMA isn't a magic bullet.


----------



## Steve (Sep 10, 2021)

well this thread became a **** show.  😂


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, wasting time turning that thing!!!


MA is 50% skill and 50% ability. The Gon rotation training can enhance your twisting ability which is very important in wrestling.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I have no idea how JowGa is, maybe it's exceptional. Yes, I saw too much of those BS. MA is a whole lot more popular in Hong Kong at the time, it's very easy to be exposed to MA. I've seen enough.


I think you’ve actually seen very little.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> BUT TODAY, it's so clear what works and what doesn't.


It's so funny that both you and I are Chinese. You try to give CMA a bad name. I try to protect the honor of CMA.

I'm sorry that your Hong Kong experience may give you a bad memory about CMA. My Taiwan experience give me a good memory about CMA.

- Long fist system helps me to develop foundation and toolbox.
- Praying mantis system helps me to develop speed generation.
- Baji system helps me to develop power generation.
- WC system helps me to develop centerline principle.
- Chinese wrestling system helps me to develop wrestling skill.

I may need to learn some BJJ. But I don't need to learn boxing, MT, TKD, Judo, western wrestling. Besides the BJJ ground skill, I have everything that I need from CMA.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I have no idea how JowGa is, maybe it's exceptional. Yes, I saw too much of those BS. MA is a whole lot more popular in Hong Kong at the time, it's very easy to be exposed to MA. I've seen enough.


You don't have to know about Jow Ga because I'm telling you the training that I did and do in Jow Ga.  I don't question you about Hong Kong because I have never lived there and have never trained martial arts there.  The only thing I can tell you is how I train and how the kung fu schools that I know and been to train.   It's from my own personal experience with some of these kung fu schools and their students that I can tell you, that the magical stuff that you saw in Hong Kong is not the norm in the U.S.

All of this is Kung Fu from various kung fu systems.  You may even recognize some of the Wing Chun fighters.  Does this look magical to you? You say win and no more excuses.   Tell them them that.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Steve said:


> well this thread became a **** show.  😂


ha ha ha.. it's always a show.  We just can't blame Jobo for this one


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Who me?


Not you, 

I was replying you asking whether learning side kick to the knee. I meant the goal is learn how to win. I did not specify what technique, I don't know enough to say. BUT experts should learn what technique create good result and they should learn whatever that works to win a fight. 

It is very obvious that MA is a constantly evolving art. Someone came out with a technique that win the fight, then people watch the video, analyzing the technique, find a way to defend it. Then some other people will work to find a technique to defeat the first one, then second and on and on.

If you watch UFC, the fighting style change every few years. What Gracie did those days would not survive as seen he got his butt handed to him by Matt Huges long time ago already. Then Huges got his butt kicked within months. Nobody stay on top in UFC, people rise and they get defeated, new people rise and gets knocked down. Now, the take down defense is so good you don't see grappling on the ground as often anymore. But people better learn take down defense and know grappling just in case.

It's constantly evolve, serious fighter really have to be like going to school and constantly learning.


----------



## Steve (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.. it's always a show.  We just can't blame Jobo for this one


Where’d he go?


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You don't have to know about Jow Ga because I'm telling you the training that I did and do in Jow Ga.  I don't question you about Hong Kong because I have never lived there and have never trained martial arts there.  The only thing I can tell you is how I train and how the kung fu schools that I know and been to train.   It's from my own personal experience with some of these kung fu schools and their students that I can tell you, that the magical stuff that you saw in Hong Kong is not the norm in the U.S.
> 
> All of this is Kung Fu from various kung fu systems.  You may even recognize some of the Wing Chun fighters.  Does this look magical to you? You say win and no more excuses.   Tell them them that.


The video looks Muy Thai in the stand up and judo on take down!!! Actually I am quite familiar. Only some take down towards the end looks different like picking the person up and slamming to the ground. Too bad the video doesn't show what happen after going to the ground because that's very important part of the MMA fight, how to submit the person.

This is much better than what I saw in kung fu. The video is very MMA to me, using Muy Thai with  take down. It would be nice to let it play out after they are on the ground.

If they have good ground game and if I were to look for a school, it will be in my consideration. This is very much MMA to me already.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> To show how STUPID those kung fu people were?


Are these CMA guys stupid?


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are these CMA guys stupid?


I did not finish watching, you know this is fake? It's not even well practice, it's very slow.

This, is done so much better even though it's fake:


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I was replying you asking whether learning side kick to the knee. I meant the goal is learn how to win. I did not specify what technique, I don't know enough to say. BUT experts should learn what technique create good result and they should learn whatever that works to win a fight.


This is not an excuse.  Just the reality because it's not as straight forward.

People take martial arts for many different reason so when you say Experts, who are you referring to? 
 If the Kung Fu teacher is an expert in kung fu forms, then I don't automatically expect him to be an expert in fighting.  Just because he trains and studies kung fu doesn't mean that he knows it.   It also doesn't mean that he techniques aren't valid.  It just means that this specific teacher doesn't know how to use them because his expertise is in forms.  So for me.   I don't expect someone to know which techniques create the best result or how to win the fight.  If I learn from them, then I will not be learning how to fight or use techniques from them.  If they are really good with making martial arts forms look good, then my best route may be to use those martial arts to be an action actor or stunt double.  Bruce Lee is a good example of how martial arts makes a movie fighting scenes more exciting.  No real fighting experience is needed.

Then you have experts who know how to use martial arts techniques. These guys are the ones you want to learn from if you want to learn how to fight using martial arts techniques.

You also have martial arts experts who only care about fitness.  Billy Blanks is a good example of that.  He used to compete, but no he just does it for fitness.  

You may look at this guy and call him a fake martial arts person.  But he has applicable skills.  He just chooses to focus on fitness.  Which probably made him richer than many UFC fighters.  Google says his net worth is $20 million.





If a martial arts expert claims to be able to fight using his technique, then he should be knowledgeable in that area.  If a martial arts expert doesn't claim to be able to fight using the techniques, then that's ok too. Because he's being honest about his knowledge and what his knowledge consists of.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If you watch UFC, the fighting style change every few years.


To be honest when I watch UFC.  I start to see a lot of things I've seen in traditional martial arts.  The more UFC evolves the more of that I see.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Steve said:


> Where’d he go?


I don't know.  He was a pain in the butt sometimes, but I hope he's ok, Considering the pandemic and Job challenges that exist.  He's been quiet for a while now, so hopefully things are going good and he just doesn't have time to be online like before.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Too bad the video doesn't show what happen after going to the ground because that's very important part of the MMA fight, how to submit the person.


Those aren't the rules of the sport.  It's not MMA.  Some of those people didn't need to be submitted.  They got KOd on their feet.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> To be honest when I watch UFC.  I start to see a lot of things I've seen in traditional martial arts.  The more UFC evolves the more of that I see.



What you’re seeing is the purposeful reduction of ground fighting in order to make the fights more “entertaining”. Dana White especially has a distaste for it, which is why you’re seeing UFC matches looking more and more like kickboxing fights.

Thankfully other MMA outlets are more friendly to grappling.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> The video looks Muy Thai in the stand up and judo on take down!!


These are all kung fu people.  Kung fu and muay thai have similar strikes.  You may be seeing that.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> The video looks Muy Thai in the stand up and judo on take down!!!



Interesting isn’t it? All those forms and esoteric movements, yet when it comes to actually landing blows, it looks like sloppy kickboxing.

Never ceases to amaze me….


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I did not finish watching, you know this is fake? It's not even well practice, it's very slow.


May be these 2 clips won't look too fake or too slow. They are the same guys in that demo.











CMA guys don't have to wear fancy uniform.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 11, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Interesting isn’t it? All those forms and esoteric movements, yet when it comes to actually landing blows, it looks like sloppy kickboxing.
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me….


That's why when comes to real effective fight, there's certain ways that works and the other ways doesn't.

I think you and me are on the same page, all the exotic movement means nothing. To me as I said many many times already. MA is an art of kicking butt, if anyone wants grace and artistic, go learn ballet, forget MA.

It's so funny you see the drunken style, they have to pretend to be tipsy, also and the hand looks like holding a cup!!! Then monkey style has to scratch the neck occasionally!!!

When they start winning a fight, they start to look alike, which is MMA.

My main style is TKD, which in my school is really kick boxing, not traditional TKD. BUT I won't defend what I learn or insist on what I learn is the best. If I were younger and not injured and still practicing TKD, I would quit the moment I saw the first UFC!!!! Because what I learn was totally out dated and it's not effective in real fight. I would not think twice but to drop what I learn and go to a BJJ and wrestling class and learn to combine what I learn in TKD to mix them together. I sure would not just refuse change and blindly insist what I learned is the best......after I saw those strikers got creamed.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is not an excuse.  Just the reality because it's not as straight forward.
> 
> People take martial arts for many different reason so when you say Experts, who are you referring to?
> If the Kung Fu teacher is an expert in kung fu forms, then I don't automatically expect him to be an expert in fighting.  Just because he trains and studies kung fu doesn't mean that he knows it.   It also doesn't mean that he techniques aren't valid.  It just means that this specific teacher doesn't know how to use them because his expertise is in forms.  So for me.   I don't expect someone to know which techniques create the best result or how to win the fight.  If I learn from them, then I will not be learning how to fight or use techniques from them.  If they are really good with making martial arts forms look good, then my best route may be to use those martial arts to be an action actor or stunt double.  Bruce Lee is a good example of how martial arts makes a movie fighting scenes more exciting.  No real fighting experience is needed.
> ...


I guess we have different philosophy. If I want to learn arts, I'd find something else to learn. When I learn MA, only thing I care is how to win a fight. If I want to move gracefully, I would go learn modern dance( which I did learn some). If I want to express arts, I would show with music ( which I was I pro musician long time ago). MA is an art of kicking butt, everything they want to teach is about kicking butt, don't beautify it.

I am NOT for doing forms(kata), I picked a school that didn't stress on forms. I don't care how pretty, how artistic they look, it's useless in fights. To me, it's a total waste of time. We only practice form 2 weeks before the belt test, then forget them all right after the test.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Interesting isn’t it? All those forms and esoteric movements, yet when it comes to actually landing blows, it looks like sloppy kickboxing.
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me….


The 4 punches combo right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook exist in CMA. When someone throws that combo, I won't be able to tell whether he may train CMA, boxing, kickboxing, or ...


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Those aren't the rules of the sport.  It's not MMA.  Some of those people didn't need to be submitted.  They got KOd on their feet.


Then I won't be interested, The stand up striking I learn in my TKD is very much the same, nothing new other than knees. I learn judo before also, if there's no ground fight, there's nothing I want to learn from that. They are just full contact fight.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The 4 punches *combo right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook *exist in CMA. When someone throws that combo, I won't be able to tell whether he may train CMA, boxing, kickboxing, or ...


I would like to see that in the original CMA. You have older videos of that......I mean before Bruce Lee's days to proof CMA actually have boxing hands, not learning after Bruce Lee?

Maybe, some kung fu finally are like the TKD school I went to over 30 years ago, start to be humble and adapt something lot more effective like boxing hands. We never do classic TKD punching because it's not effective. We didn't do big horse stand, instead we stand higher and be more mobile like boxing.

This is how I feel from Hanzou:


Hanzou said:


> Interesting isn’t it? All those forms and esoteric movements, yet when it comes to actually landing blows, it looks like sloppy kickboxing.
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me….


It is very obvious what techniques win a real fight as they all look the same...........Kick boxing and Muy Thai. That's the reason I have a lot of respect towards Muy Thai, they were pretty much fighting like how they fight today AND they whooped a lot of butts back in the 60s before Bruce Lee. I won't be surprised Lee pay attention to Muy Thai as it is actually effective.

I never saw any kung fu fight like kick boxing with jabs and all before Bruce Lee's days, in fact, Bruce Lee shocked the MA circle fighting like this. It was completely new to them.

So if you said kung fu have all these, please find some old video that has these from the older days.

Now, that's nothing wrong learning from what works, I would have a lot more respect towards them if they say they learn and adapt to the new world. Just don't say they have it originally. Just like TKD did NOT have anything like that, only my teacher learned and adapt boxing into the school.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I would like to see that in the original CMA. You have older videos of that......I mean before Bruce Lee's days to proof CMA actually have boxing hands, not learning after Bruce Lee?


It's in the 2 men long fist form "扑按对打 Pu An Dui Da" that I learn back in 1964. I'm not sure when was Bruce Lee's day. But I believe he was still in Hong Kong in 1964. I don't have video for that form.

Long fist have jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, spiral punch, ...


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's in the 2 men long fist form "扑按对打 Pu An Dui Da" that I learn back in 1964. I'm not sure when was Bruce Lee's day. But I believe he was still in Hong Kong in 1964. I don't have video for that form.
> 
> Long fist have jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, spiral punch, ...


I can't find anything on " 扑按对打 Pu An Dui Da", I know how to read a little chinese, it's 2 people fighting each other. I have to see the video to judge. I never seen any kung fu have hands like boxing, not even close. What is the name of the kung fu style?

 Bruce Lee's days were 1970 when he made the Big Boss to show case his techniques. That was stunning to the MA community and to the public because nobody seen fights like this.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> The video looks Muy Thai in the stand up and judo on take down!!!


Why does this shock you?  I'm pretty sure I made a long post about   See post #193.  Where I go through a Muay Boran form and talk about the similar techniques there. Remember the original post where I told you that the side Kick to the Knee was also in Kung Fu, and and others stated that the exact same technique can be found in other systems, and you are surprised that they look the same?



JowGaWolf said:


> Muay Thai Boran has a Punching form. Jow Ga has a punching form. I will give you the kung Fu equivalent the techniques here.


Punches, Knee strikes, Elbow Strikes, Throws, Grappling and Escapes are going to have similarities across systems. 

But Kung Fu is not Muay Thai.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> This is much better than what I saw in kung fu. The video is very MMA to me, using Muy Thai with take down. It would be nice to let it play out after they are on the ground.
> 
> If they have good ground game and if I were to look for a school, it will be in my consideration. This is very much MMA to me already.


Kung Fu ground game training is different depending on the school and students, who attend.  If the students aren't interested then the school is most likely not going to teach it.  They may teach Kung Fu but they also have to keep the school open.  Everyone that joins a Kung Fu school doesn't do so to learn to fight.  Ignore that fact and your school will go out of business.  Most Kung Fu school will probably teach ground fighting concepts.  (If they do decide to teach it.)

In street fighting ground fighting is often not the goal.  BJJ will tell you the same thing.  Because of this many Kung Fu schools neglect the importance of being able to escape the ground when someone is on top of you.  This is why Kung Fu Wang says that Chinese Wrestling is important.  If you cannot get your opponent on the ground then your ground fighting techniques are not going to help much.  We already see this in UFC as we see fighters are getting better at not being taken to the ground.   The reverse of this is also true.  If you have no ground fighting skills then your striking skills will be come useless when you are on the ground.  

In terms of fighting on the street,  Your best option is to stay on your feet.  Once you are on the ground you become vulnerable to other attacks from other people that may come in, and you lose the ability to run away if needed.

There are a lot of things you would do in a street fight that you wouldn't do in UFC, like hit someone with a cane or stab them with a knife, so you can't look at UFC ground game and think it's going to be a total solution or the best solution in a ground street fight.  There have been UFC fighters who have learned this the hard way.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> What you’re seeing is the purposeful reduction of ground fighting in order to make the fights more “entertaining”. Dana White especially has a distaste for it, which is why you’re seeing UFC matches looking more and more like kickboxing fights.
> 
> Thankfully other MMA outlets are more friendly to grappling.


No you see the same thing in other MMA arenas as well.  It's not just the UFC.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It's so funny you see the drunken style, they have to pretend to be tipsy, also and the hand looks like holding a cup!!! Then monkey style has to scratch the neck occasionally!!!


These are not the the fighting applications in Drunken Style nor in Monkey.  Drunken Style fighting application uses a lot of bumping, grappling, and off angle punches.  non-fighting applications and expecting them to be fighting applications and I don't know why.  For example, if that's your starting point for a drunken style fight applications then you have a misunderstanding of what you should be looking for.  

Jow Ga has drunken style techniques in them and none are as you described.  None of it requires that we pretend to look tipsy.  That doesn't even come up in our training.  For one technique we talk about slipping a punch and landing an uppercut under the jaw hinge.  If you know that pretending to be Tipsy isn't a realistic fighting application, then stop looking there as a way to determine if something is viable for fighting. 

I think you like the flashy stuff which is why you were drawn to it in the past.  You made an assumption that the flashy stuff were actually fighting techniques., hence your bad experience with it.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> No you see the same thing in other MMA arenas as well.  It's not just the UFC.



Incorrect. One Championship for example is a lot more friendly towards ground fighters than UFC is.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's why when comes to real effective fight, there's certain ways that works and the other ways doesn't.
> 
> I think you and me are on the same page, all the exotic movement means nothing. To me as I said many many times already. MA is an art of kicking butt, if anyone wants grace and artistic, go learn ballet, forget MA.



I'm forced to agree. Hence the "fluff" I was talking about in earlier posts in this thread. All of the pageantry and flowery movements melt away when Kung Fu exponents start fighting. So that forces me to ask; Why are you doing all of those forms and ridiculous stances if in the end you're just going to look like a sloppy kickboxer?

Meanwhile when we see people actually fighting with BJJ for example, we can recognize the movements rather quickly and make a direct line between training and application. For example;


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/comments/pdd3y1

Clearly Rubber Guard to omoplata leading to chump getting their face smashed. Eddie Bravo is in buddha heaven (aka his huge mansion) smoking a joint to this.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The 4 punches combo right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook exist in CMA. When someone throws that combo, I won't be able to tell whether he may train CMA, boxing, kickboxing, or ...



Yet it looks better when done by Boxers and Kickboxers. Almost as if they spend far more time honing those actual techniques instead of jamming in fluff  like Crane Beaks and Tiger palms.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> So if you said kung fu have all these, please find some old video that has these from the older days.


Video of old Kung Fu.  Including the double upper cut that was in the Muay Boran video






Older video. Shows the hook.





This form has both what would be considered Monkey techniques and it uses a couple of drunken boxing techniques.  Specifically this picture here.  Watch the the video and you will see that this does not look like someone who is pretending to be drunk.











Alan if you can't understand what I've been saying and pointing out then you probably won't ever understand.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Video of old Kung Fu.  Including the double upper cut that was in the Muay Boran video
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same kung fu system.  Very practical


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Kung Fu ground game training is different depending on the school and students, who attend.  If the students aren't interested then the school is most likely not going to teach it.  They may teach Kung Fu but they also have to keep the school open.  Everyone that joins a Kung Fu school doesn't do so to learn to fight.



I think you're missing a big component of having "to keep the school open", which is the competition aspect. Having active fighters & competitors in your school, generates a lot of interests & excitement among the other students. This will bring in more students & further promote your style & yourself/gym. But you have to be open to the aspects of MMA fighting, which is what's dominating the MA world. 

But actually, it's BJJ that's dominating in terms of bringing in students. I'm in a State that's very Liberal, so during this Delta variant Covid19 spread, we have to wear masks again and everyone's fearful, esp. in a Lib, 80% Biden voting State; yet there was like 30-35 kids in our BJJ Competition Team class yesterday (all legal under our Governor's mandates for gym operations).


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Video of old Kung Fu.  Including the double upper cut that was in the Muay Boran video
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What’s the point of learning all of that if the end result looks like the Lei tai video?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Having active fighters & competitors in your school, generates a lot of interests & excitement among the other students. This will bring in more students & further promote your style & yourself/gym. But you have to be open to the aspects of MMA fighting, which is what's dominating the MA world.


If my last school tried to run our school like this, then we would have lost many customers who want to learn Kung Fu but not for fighting.  To give you When I started doing Kung fu sparring classes on a regular bases.  The class went empty for a year before any of the current student's joined. Out of 25 students only 5 wanted to take that path and only 2 had the skill set and toughness to compete in MMA.  1 of the 2 wouldn't have done it because he's a surgeon.  A lot of the students were children.  The adults students had Jobs that were better than fighting MMA so there's no incentive to get busted up for less money.  They were satisfied with being able to protect themselves in the street and to have the ability to say that they know how to use Kung Fu, which is a big deal considering most student's don't know how to use the martial arts that they train as for self defense.  They can do the basics but that's usually where it sticks.

Fighting at a high competition level comes with a lot of things that most people just don't want to deal with.



jayoliver00 said:


> But actually, it's BJJ that's dominating in terms of bringing in students. I'm in a State that's very Liberal, so during this Delta variant Covid19 spread, we have to wear masks again and everyone's fearful,


Everyone is fearful because people keep dying for it.  My friend just contacted me 2 days ago and told me his mom died from Covid.  No one wants to die from something that could have been avoided.  No parent wants to there kid to die from either.  Parent's should protect their kids and when they can't or don't many will feel as if they are to blame, even  if they aren't.

As for the schools making money.  I find that to be more of a business knowledge issue as to why TMA schools do not do well with attracting students.  When I was teaching we were getting a lot of students and were actually running out of training space.  The thing that attracted the student's was my ability to use Jow Ga.  In short, someone says I can teach you how to use Kung Fu.  The customer will think "Show me that you can use kung fu."  Most people who want to learn Kung Fu for self-defense wants to learn from someone who can actually use it.    Normally schools will showcase trophies, but for me, I would show case my sparring and my training methods.

Students weren't looking for Professional fighter grade training.  Professional fighter grade training is unrealistic for many people since the amount of training would interfere with other parts of their life.  I even had other Jow Ga students from other schools seek my help.  But politically that's not a good thing since I'm not a Sifu.

Kung Fu and Martial Arts don't have the same limitations as systems that are heavily focused on grappling.  I can provide quality training to students with less contact than what BJJ, Judo, or wrestler's need.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> What’s the point of learning all of that if the end result looks like the Lei tai video?


You watch Kung Fu people use kung fu techniques effectively yet you seem to be more concern about the looks.  This I don't understand.  S

As for "Learning all of that" that is up to the person who is training.  That person decides which techniques they wish to learn and which ones they will not learn.  Not only will the person decide this, they will decide if they want to use Kung fu for fighting or for health.  Not everyone who takes kung fu wants to be able to fight with it.  Some of the same people who take Kung Fu would just as easily shoot you for self-defense and take Kung Fu for health.  

I can't speak for others but my own in enjoyment with Kung Fu is learning how to use the techniques.  I start with the beginner form and I learn how to use every technique in that beginner form.  When you see me spar my strikes to not look like the ones you see in Lei Tai, but that's because of the goals of myself.  If I only want to use the front kick from Kung Fu then that would be my choice to do so.

The assumption that you make about "Learning all of this" is that people train Kung Fu for different reasons and a lot of those reasons aren't tied to fighting.  Out of the beginning form in Jow Ga, I can do all but maybe 3 or 4 .  If you asked me to show an example of a technique from that form, then I can probably show you and example from my sparring videos or get in a ring sparring or fighting and show an example of it.  I take personal pride in my ability to do that.

Like many of the UFC fans in this forum.  Not many of us are going to be fighting in the UFC or going to try to make a living out of MMA..


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You watch Kung Fu people use kung fu techniques effectively yet you seem to be more concern about the looks.  This I don't understand.  S



I’m concerned that you’re learning hundreds of techniques and only a couple are truly applicable.



JowGaWolf said:


> As for "Learning all of that" that is up to the person who is training.  That person decides which techniques they wish to learn and which ones they will not learn.  Not only will the person decide this, they will decide if they want to use Kung fu for fighting or for health.  Not everyone who takes kung fu wants to be able to fight with it.  Some of the same people who take Kung Fu would just as easily shoot you for self-defense and take Kung Fu for health.



So you admit that all that form work is mostly fluff? Interesting.

Also, I’d be willing to bet that the VAST majority (like 90%) of people in Kung Fu currently are doing so either partly or fully for self defense purposes.



JowGaWolf said:


> The assumption that you make about "Learning all of this" is that people train Kung Fu for different reasons and a lot of those reasons aren't tied to fighting.  Out of the beginning form in Jow Ga, I can do all but maybe 3 or 4 .  If you asked me to show an example of a technique from that form, then I can probably show you and example from my sparring videos or get in a ring sparring or fighting and show an example of it.  I take personal pride in my ability to do that.
> 
> Like many of the UFC fans in this forum.  Not many of us are going to be fighting in the UFC or going to try to make a living out of MMA..



No one is talking about the UFC or professional fighting. I’m talking about a kid fighting back against a bully, a woman fighting back against a rapist, or a teacher fighting off a crazed student.

The problem with you traditionalist types is that you don’t seem to understand that learning to fight applies to the street just like it applies to the ring/cage.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

And keeping it real.


Hanzou said:


> I’m concerned that you’re learning hundreds of techniques and only a couple are truly applicable.


I"m not.  So far the ones I've learned have been functional.  If something that doesn't work after understanding the technique and after trying to use it then don't use it.  It can still be taught and useful to someone in the next generation.  Perfect example, out of 25 people in my school sweeps and foot hooks didn't work for them.,  simply because they didn't make an effort to understand and train the techniques.  When sparring came up they were too concerned with "winning" so they stuck to some really basic stuff.  But for me.  Sweeps and foot hooks are awesome.  They fit well with my fighting style. 

Had my teacher thrown sweeps away because they didn't work well for them then I wouldn't have that tool in my kick.  Now my son has taken after me with the sweep.  May be his son or daughter won't.  But you still teach the skill set.


Hanzou said:


> So you admit that all that form work is mostly fluff? Interesting.


I said no such thing.  When I tell you I can use over 90% of the techniques in my form it's because I don't know or fully understand how to apply the other techniques.  That's not fluff.  That's a gap in my ability in reference to that technique.



Hanzou said:


> Also, I’d be willing to bet that the VAST majority (like 90%) of people in Kung Fu currently are doing so either partly or fully for self defense purposes.


You would be wrong on this.  Most of them do it for Self Cultivation.  You only need to read the websites and listen to people.  I believe I posted in this forum a video of Dennis Brown who was asked about teaching fighting.  He said that today he's in the business of self cultivation or something like that.  I've taught Kung Fu classes and helped run the school.  Most people don't join for self-defense.  For some reason self defense is like a Side Effect to them.



Hanzou said:


> The problem with you traditionalist types is that you don’t seem to understand that learning to fight applies to the street just like it applies to the ring/cage.


It doesn't because if I had a chair, a knife, or a gun when it's time for me defend myself then I'm going to make use of it.  If I can talk my way out of a hostile situation then I'm going to use that ability.    When you in the ring/cage. You have to fight.   When you are on the streets you have many more options before the fight comes and even then you can have other options that aren't available in the ring/cage.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> And keeping it real.
> 
> I"m not.  So far the ones I've learned have been functional.  If something that doesn't work after understanding the technique and after trying to use it then don't use it.  It can still be taught and useful to someone in the next generation.  Perfect example, out of 25 people in my school sweeps and foot hooks didn't work for them.,  simply because they didn't make an effort to understand and train the techniques.  When sparring came up they were too concerned with "winning" so they stuck to some really basic stuff.  But for me.  Sweeps and foot hooks are awesome.  They fit well with my fighting style.
> 
> ...


People who want to call it fluff usually don’t understand it because it falls outside of their experience.  Sadly, it seems most of them are not open to actually understanding it.  Just look at the years of discussions here on Martialtalk where folks have tried to explain these things over and over, to the same people.  And here we are doing it yet again.  Calling it fluff and resorting to denigrating what others do is the easy way out, and frankly is dishonest.  Owning up to simply not understanding what it is all about is more honest.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> And keeping it real.
> 
> I"m not.  So far the ones I've learned have been functional.  If something that doesn't work after understanding the technique and after trying to use it then don't use it.  It can still be taught and useful to someone in the next generation.  Perfect example, out of 25 people in my school sweeps and foot hooks didn't work for them.,  simply because they didn't make an effort to understand and train the techniques.  When sparring came up they were too concerned with "winning" so they stuck to some really basic stuff.  But for me.  Sweeps and foot hooks are awesome.  They fit well with my fighting style.
> 
> Had my teacher thrown sweeps away because they didn't work well for them then I wouldn't have that tool in my kick.  Now my son has taken after me with the sweep.  May be his son or daughter won't.  But you still teach the skill set.



Not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the more esoteric and whimsical aspects of your forms.



JowGaWolf said:


> I said no such thing.  When I tell you I can use over 90% of the techniques in my form it's because I don't know or fully understand how to apply the other techniques.  That's not fluff.  That's a gap in my ability in reference to that technique.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jow Ga have over 20 unarmed forms, 18 weapon forms, and 10 2 man sets? You're telling me you use 90% of the techniques from all of those forms?

Further, even 10% useless techniques would still be you wasting time on a useless technique. Thus, fluff. That said, based on what I've seen of Jow Ga forms, and some of the sparring from some Jow Ga schools (not yours), I would argue that that percentage of form application is far lower.


JowGaWolf said:


> You would be wrong on this.  Most of them do it for Self Cultivation.  You only need to read the websites and listen to people.  I believe I posted in this forum a video of Dennis Brown who was asked about teaching fighting.  He said that today he's in the business of self cultivation or something like that.  I've taught Kung Fu classes and helped run the school.  Most people don't join for self-defense.  For some reason self defense is like a Side Effect to them.



Interesting, because this is how Dennis Brown advertises his school.....



> Become a Powerful, Hard-Bodied Warrior at Silverspring Kung Fu!





> If you want to learn a COMPLETE martial arts system that maximizes the physical and mental skills of self-defense, you'll find it at Dennis Brown Shaolin Wu Shu Center!











						Silver Spring Kids Karate - Dennis Brown Shaolin Wu Shu Center - Silver Spring, Maryland
					

Our Kids Karate, Kung Fu and Tai Chi  programs are excellent choices for self defense, discipline and fitness. Learn more about our martial arts classes in Silver Spring now!




					silverspringkarate.com
				





Looks like he's not in the business you think he is.


JowGaWolf said:


> It doesn't because if I had a chair, a knife, or a gun when it's time for me defend myself then I'm going to make use of it.  If I can talk my way out of a hostile situation then I'm going to use that ability.



Really? So when its time to defend yourself and you don't have a knife, a gun, or a chair, and you can no longer talk your way out of the situation, are you just going to stand there and get the crap beaten out of you? Considering that more often than not you're not carrying a chair, knife, or a gun, why wouldn't you use the Kung Fu that you have spent years practicing? 

I am always perplexed as to why me suggesting that you utilize your Kung Fu for fighting bothers your so much.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> People who want to call it fluff usually don’t understand it because it falls outside of their experience.  Sadly, it seems most of them are not open to actually understanding it.  Just look at the years of discussions here on Martialtalk where folks have tried to explain these things over and over, to the same people.  And here we are doing it yet again.  Calling it fluff and resorting to denigrating what others do is the easy way out, and frankly is dishonest.  Owning up to simply not understanding what it is all about is more honest.



The only dishonesty here are people who wave away valid criticism by saying that someone doesn't understand that which they are criticizing. 

Despite all the silliness that some schools like to kick up, martial arts practice always revolves around a singular goal; To make someone a better *fighter*. The fluff is what is put in place to obscure or delay that goal. Some schools put it in so that they can get more money for belt testing. Other schools stuff things up with fluff to make it more appealing to less aggressive people. Some schools have a long tradition of fluff in order to ensure that the student they get are actually dedicated.

It's still *all* fluff. 

And like I said, even BJJ has fluff in it. That fluff is why I chose it over MMA.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> People who want to call it fluff usually don’t understand it because it falls outside of their experience.  Sadly, it seems most of them are not open to actually understanding it.  Just look at the years of discussions here on Martialtalk where folks have tried to explain these things over and over, to the same people.  And here we are doing it yet again.  Calling it fluff and resorting to denigrating what others do is the easy way out, and frankly is dishonest.  Owning up to simply not understanding what it is all about is more honest.


Yep.  I and here goes another one.



Hanzou said:


> Not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the more esoteric and whimsical aspects of your forms.


I don't know what you are talking about.  You are going to have to show me what you think is "esoteric and whimsical" in a Jow Ga" form.  I can't speak for other systems I haven't trained.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Jow Ga have over 20 unarmed forms, 18 weapon forms, and 10 2 man sets? You're telling me you use 90% of the techniques from all of those forms?


I don't know how many forms that Jow Ga has.  It depends on what school you attend and how much the teacher knows.  Each school is different and are shaped around the experience and preference of the teacher or instructor.  If I open up a school today, there would only be 5 unarmed forms and 1 weapons form.  In Kung Fu, there are a group of people who based there expertise by the total number of forms that they know.  The assumption is, if you know a lot of forms then you must be knowledgeable.   I'm not of that camp.

For my real kung fu knowledge can only be obtained by applying the techniques that are found in the form.  This requires the person to have a deeper understanding of the techniques.  This also helps to define what parts of the form are for fighting and what parts are for conditioning.  I do not believe it's possible to understand Kung Fu without trying to use Kung Fu

So to answer your question.  Out of the 5 unarmed forms that I train. I can use the more than 90% of the beginners form Sei-Ping Kyun.

This is Sei-Ping Kyun.  I know how to apply more than 90% of this form. This is the one I train the most.  






My personal thought about learning a lot of forms is that I wouldn't do it unless I just want to be a library of forms.  Even with the weapons form I only want to know, staff, dagger, Dao,  straight sword, and Gwan Dao.

The 2 man sets are fine too. It has it's own purpose and is related to applications use and conditioning.  I used to know 1 of them but I don't know them anymore.  Mainly because it takes 2 people for it to be of any use.  If a student is like me who trains by himself most of the time, then the 2 man set isn't going to be of use.   So it dropped from the things I decided to remember.



Hanzou said:


> Really? So when its time to defend yourself and you don't have a knife, a gun, or a chair, and you can no longer talk your way out of the situation, are you just going to stand there and get the crap beaten out of you?


You are missing the point of my conflict.   If there's a weapon around for me to use then I will take advantage of it so that my attacker cannot do the same.  I there's no weapon around then I use my unarmed fighting skills.


Hanzou said:


> Considering that more often than not you're not carrying a chair, knife, or a gun, why wouldn't you use the Kung Fu that you have spent years practicing?


Because if there's something I can use as a weapon, then it is my advantage to do so, instead of allowing my attacker to use that same object on me.






As for weapons I carry; I won't get into that.   But the law allows adults to carry knives with or without a permit depending on the length of the blade.  In the southern states it's not uncommon to see someone with a pocket knife.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> People who want to call it fluff usually don’t understand it because it falls outside of their experience.


All the fancy moves in CMA are just "switch hands". I don't believe the "switch hands" concept exist in non-CMA.

I always tell my guys that if your can understand this concept, you will understand all CMA fancy moves.

In another post, someone said that CMA is stupid. If he understands what "switch hands" is, he won't make such comment.

There are only 3 kind of hand skill exist in all MA systems.

1. Dodge and punchy back.
2. Block and punch back.
3. Block with the 1st arm, the 2nd arm take over the blocking, the 1st arm punch back (switch hands).


----------



## Martial D (Sep 11, 2021)

"Rooting" is just another way of saying stance and balance training.

You don't need to look to hard to see where that ties into real world application.

Yes, when talking about 'fighting' most traditional systems are quite ineffective when taken as a package but the stance and balance training is good for strength conditioning and .well staying upright. If anything it's one of the strengths of TMA. They have much to teach about body mechanics as a whole.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yep.  I and here goes another one.
> 
> 
> I don't know what you are talking about.  You are going to have to show me what you think is "esoteric and whimsical" in a Jow Ga" form.  I can't speak for other systems I haven't trained.









This sequence for example.



JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know how many forms that Jow Ga has.



About 50 total.



JowGaWolf said:


> It depends on what school you attend and how much the teacher knows.  Each school is different and are shaped around the experience and preference of the teacher or instructor.  If I open up a school today, there would only be 5 unarmed forms and 1 weapons form.  In Kung Fu, there are a group of people who based there expertise by the total number of forms that they know.  The assumption is, if you know a lot of forms then you must be knowledgeable.   I'm not of that camp.



Did your sifu only know 6 forms, or was 6 the only forms you had time to learn before he kicked you out for sparring?



JowGaWolf said:


> For my real kung fu knowledge can only be obtained by applying the techniques that are found in the form.  This requires the person to have a deeper understanding of the techniques.  This also helps to define what parts of the form are for fighting and what parts are for conditioning.  I do not believe it's possible to understand Kung Fu without trying to use Kung Fu
> 
> So to answer your question.  Out of the 5 unarmed forms that I train. I can use the more than 90% of the beginners form Sei-Ping Kyun.
> 
> This is Sei-Ping Kyun.  I know how to apply more than 90% of this form. This is the one I train the most.



And what is that application? Conditioning or fighting?


JowGaWolf said:


> You are missing the point of my conflict.   If there's a weapon around for me to use then I will take advantage of it so that my attacker cannot do the same.  I there's no weapon around then I use my unarmed fighting skills.



Why is that a conflict? That sounds more like common sense. My issue with your earlier post is that you made it seem like you reserved weapons for self defense and your unarmed training was for something else entirely. Hence your mentioning of Dennis Brown, who you were using as a model of a kung fu exponent who wasn't training people to fight, when in reality that's exactly what he believes he's doing.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In another post, someone said that CMA is stupid. If he understands what "switch hands" is, he won't make such comment.



Honestly, silly concepts like "switch hands" is probably why he feels that way.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly, silly concepts like "switch hands" is probably why he feels that way.


The arm drag is switch hands.

At 1.48,

- Your use right hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist.
- You use left hand to grab his left elbow.
- You free your right hand. You then move behind him, and use your right arm to wrap around his waist.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> This sequence for example.


So the first part is going to be 50-50. where the user steps back.   Not so much as fluff as it is to pay respect.  I'll explain
The Bow in Jow Ga is a mixture of respect and technique.  It is done as an acknowledgement of the founder of the form (not the system). Based on the Bow someone  would be able to have an idea of what lineage they follow. or the lineage of the form.  This is of cultural significant in Chinese Culture.  Like the Bow in Japanese or Muay Thai.  There are hand gestures as well but I won't get into that.  I just stick to the important stuff.  The Cultural Stuff ends once he pulls both arms back.  That the other 50% of the Bow.

*Technique #1* is an escape and counter - Pull both arms back and feed that motion into a back fist.  This type of back fist is a heavy back fist and not the one that snaps.  In application you would do this to deal with single arm control.  Escape single arm control and immediately counter.  In forms practice You are training the motion for both left and right arms together.  Where some techniques are stronger with the right or left arm.  This one trains equal strength and ability by training both arms instead of one arm at a time.

*Technique #2: *Cat Stance - This strengthens the muscles in the leg and strengthens balance. It is also the stance that one is in when doing a front kick or evading a trip.

*Technique #1a *Similar concept as #1 .  Ignore the back fits and focused on the elbows.  This is the same motion used for Elbow strikes.  This doesn't become clear until the Small tiger forms.  Students will train this bow and have no problem with doing elbow strikes by the time they get to the second form.  Even if they never thrown an elbow before, they will have no problem by the second form.  The bow trains this motion.  But to answer your question about fluff.  Follow #! and think of this as a by product.   As beginners we train the bow over and over before we get into the main form.

*Technique #3* - End of bow: - The Bow end when the he steps back into chambered fist.  The same motion to chamber fist like you see in Kung fu is the same motion used for elbow strikes.  In training double chamber my fist I'm training both arms at the same time to do an elbow strike.    If I chamber my elbows low then the elbow strike will be low.  If I chamber my fist high then my elbow strike will be high.

*Technique #4* - Dropping into horse -  This is simply a level change.  The goal is to drop quickly.  When someone comes at you for a take down you have to quickly drop the height of your stance to prevent them from getting under you.

*Technique #5* -Double spear hands /arms- This technique is often not shown correctly in forms.  Some forms will do a 1 then 2 when in application it should be a 1 and 2 at the same time.  So the double  spear hands and  drop are meant to be done  together.  Some people do it at the same time other don't.  I'm focused on application so  I train that motion as I would use it in application.  Think of it this way.  You are in a fighting stance and your opponent  drops to to grab under your arms leaving your hands above..  There is no way you can get the under hook  unless you drive both arms downward to the center of the body.  and by lowering your stance at the the same time.  This technique makes it possible to do other techniques so this motion is some times trained as a single technique.  I guess you can think of it like an entry technique.

*Technique #6*- Double spear hands /arms.  to palms in front of your face. (beauty looks in mirror). This technique is a grappling technique..  It's an escape for single arm control attempts.

Last technique at the end of the video was taught to me as a breathing exercise. Qi Gong . So that's what I'm going to go with on that one.  I don't train that as an application.  You will usually see this movement done on forms that are very demanding on the body.  The forms that are very exhausting has Qi Gong movement in it..  Qi Gong can be considered as breathing training or energy movement training.
 When I say energy movement I don't mean Chi Balls.  I mean  the physical movement of energy in the body.  Sort of like how all systems state that punch energy starts from the ground and exits the fist. They aren't talking about Chi balls.  So when you see kung fu do this then that's what they are supposed to be working on.. In terms of application.

So that small bit trains 7 techniques..  I don't think I left anything out.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The arm drag is switch hands.
> 
> At 1.48,
> 
> ...



But the arm drag is not a fancy move, and it exists outside of CMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The arm drag is switch hands.






He also does what looks like a Single Spear hand, that does the same thing I described in the form. Technique #5.




When the Opponent seeks to control your arm pull the arm back as shown in the clip that Quickly pull the arm back as shown here.  This keeps the elbow from being grabbed as shown in the video.  Turn the pull into a backfist will free the one hand grip..  Grabbing elbow prevents the person from pulling their arm back so that gives a good idea of when one needs to pull their arm back and how quickly that needs to be.  Pulling the arm straight back will just get you in more trouble .  Pulling the arm back with the elbows sticking out will free you or at least give you a chance to escape that initial attempt to control the arm.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> But the arm drag is not a fancy move, and it exists outside of CMA.


It exists in CMA since day 1.  It may look fancy when you do solo.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> So the first part is going to be 50-50. where the user steps back.   Not so much as fluff as it is to pay respect.  I'll explain
> The Bow in Jow Ga is a mixture of respect and technique.  It is done as an acknowledgement of the founder of the form (not the system). Based on the Bow someone  would be able to have an idea of what lineage they follow. or the lineage of the form.  This is of cultural significant in Chinese Culture.  Like the Bow in Japanese or Muay Thai.  There are hand gestures as well but I won't get into that.  I just stick to the important stuff.  The Cultural Stuff ends once he pulls both arms back.  That the other 50% of the Bow.
> 
> *Technique #1* is an escape and counter - Pull both arms back and feed that motion into a back fist.  This type of back fist is a heavy back fist and not the one that snaps.  In application you would do this to deal with single arm control.  Escape single arm control and immediately counter.  In forms practice You are training the motion for both left and right arms together.  Where some techniques are stronger with the right or left arm.  This one trains equal strength and ability by training both arms instead of one arm at a time.
> ...



While I appreciate the play by play describing the goals of the form, my point is that the movements are unnecessary, estoteric and whimsical. Perhaps because some of the movements are archaic and we have more efficient methods to achieve those goals?


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It exists in CMA since day 1.  It may look fancy when you do solo.



You literally said that Switch Hands does not exist in Non-CMA, now you're saying it exists in one of the staples of western wrestling?

And no, it doesn't look fancy. I mean, when done properly, its a cool way to open up someone, but it's nothing like the crazy stuff we see in Kung Fu.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> While I appreciate the play by play describing the goals of the form, my point is that the movements are unnecessary, estoteric and whimsical. Perhaps because some of the movements are archaic and we have more efficient methods to achieve those goals?


The movements aren't archaic. (white) does the same spear hand concept that is trained in the form.  It's literally the same concept of "spearing your hand towards your center for the purpose of getting under your opponent.  The concept of stance level drop is there as well.is there as well.  






You won't see a lot of kung fu students that know these things simply because they don't try to actually use the techniques or because their teacher lacks the understanding to actually apply it.  We all have seen those Kung Fu applications that look awkward even in a walk through, that makes you think.  "Yeah you really haven't used this technique before."


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You literally said that Switch Hands does not exist in Non-CMA, now you're saying it exists in one of the staples of western wrestling?
> 
> And no, it doesn't look fancy. I mean, when done properly, its a cool way to open up someone, but it's nothing like the crazy stuff we see in Kung Fu.


How is it "crazy kung fu"  when his video shows the same technique of controlling the arm and seizing the elbow? The only thing that was different was the follow up after seizing the elbow.  2 different applications from the same movement.

If your punch is Jab, hook then the variation can be Jab, Cross.  Regardless of what follows then Jab is still the same technique.

if you are saying that "crazy kung fu" is that stuff that people do for entertainment like Jackie Chan then yes., But if you are looking for practical application then don't look for stuff that entertainment kung fu. To do so means that you are looking for applications in an activity where applications is not the purpose.    It makes as much sense as looking for fish that swim in desert sand.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> How is it "crazy kung fu"  when his video shows the same technique of controlling the arm and seizing the elbow? The only thing that was different was the follow up after seizing the elbow.  2 different applications from the same movement.
> 
> If your punch is Jab, hook then the variation can be Jab, Cross.  Regardless of what follows then Jab is still the same technique.
> 
> if you are saying that "crazy kung fu" is that stuff that people do for entertainment like Jackie Chan then yes., But if you are looking for practical application then don't look for stuff that entertainment kung fu. To do so means that you are looking for applications in an activity where applications is not the purpose.    It makes as much sense as looking for fish that swim in desert sand.



Uh, I specifically said that the arm drag is NOT "crazy kung fu". I also said that the arm drag is definitely not exclusive to CMA, so it wouldn't fall under his own definition of "switch hands".


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The movements aren't archaic. (white) does the same spear hand concept that is trained in the form.  It's literally the same concept of "spearing your hand towards your center for the purpose of getting under your opponent.  The concept of stance level drop is there as well.is there as well.
> 
> View attachment 27264
> 
> You won't see a lot of kung fu students that know these things simply because they don't try to actually use the techniques or because their teacher lacks the understanding to actually apply it.  We all have seen those Kung Fu applications that look awkward even in a walk through, that makes you think.  "Yeah you really haven't used this technique before."



You should watch the video with the sound on. The initial arm thrust wasn't the actual movement, he was just showing the general principle. The actual movement is this;






Where he swings the opponent's arm out of the way, drops down, and wraps his lower body for a takedown. It isn't a "spear hand". You can actually see what he's doing when the video is in motion, and when he's talking he's explaining what he's doing.

Your post is a common problem with Kata/form bunkai..... Trying to find movements that aren't really there.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Where he swings the opponent's arm out of the way, drops down, and wraps his lower body for a takedown. It isn't a "spear hand". You can actually see what he's doing when the video is in motion, and when he's talking he's explaining what he


ha ha ha.  Dude if you are grappling against a resisting partner that arm isn't going to swing way out like that.  You are going to have a tight spot to get that arm through which means you have to bring your arm closer to your body in order to quick get underneath that arm.  Look how far his arm travel his (white) arm travels.   There's no way that long path is going to beat reds effort to pull his arm directly back. 

If White takes a long path to get his arm under then he's not going to get under him as he's showing.  What's going to happen is that Reds' arm that he pulls is going to be in the center resulting in an over under grab, where reds arm gets trapped between white's body, while whites arm goes under red's free arm.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> The initial arm thrust wasn't the actual movement, he was just showing the general principle.


I have come to the conclusion that 
1. You are unable to see General Principles
2. You don't want accept the General Principles that people are trying to show because you are stuck on hollywood kung fu


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.  Dude if you are grappling against a resisting partner that arm isn't going to swing way out like that.  You are going to have a tight spot to get that arm through which means you have to bring your arm closer to your body in order to quick get underneath that arm.  Look how far his arm travel his (white) arm travels.   There's no way that long path is going to beat reds effort to pull his arm directly back.
> 
> If White takes a long path to get his arm under then he's not going to get under him as he's showing.  What's going to happen is that Reds' arm that he pulls is going to be in the center resulting in an over under grab, where reds arm gets trapped between white's body, while whites arm goes under red's free arm.


 
It’s a demonstration at half speed. If you want to see it at full speed where he is actually applying what he is talking about,, just watch the next 10 seconds of the video. 

I mean seriously, you’re arguing that a black belt in BJJ doesn’t know how to properly arm drag when you mistakenly thought he was doing a spear hand.


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## RavenDarkfellow (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If White takes a long path to get his arm under then he's not going to get under him as he's showing.  What's going to happen is that Reds' arm that he pulls is going to be in the center resulting in an over under grab, where reds arm gets trapped between white's body, while whites arm goes under red's free arm.



It's true, that is the more likely outcome of this technique-- that the defender (red) will pull his arm back into position.  However, just as with Gung Fu (or any other style) of techniques, you have to examine this from a step-by-step moment-to-moment angle, and apply real-world physics, in order to discuss the theory.

So when the attacker performs the arm-drag, one of two things will happen (assuming the defender actively defends, and doesn't just get dragged to the ground/wherever the attacker wants)

1. Defender is pulled off-balance with arm extended for just a moment (after which he will almost certainly attempt to re-centre the arm close to his body, or else attempt to wrap the attacker as a counter-attack).  

2. Defender is stronger than attacker and/or has better positional balance, and the attacker's opening to the technique will simply fail.

In the case of #1, this technique will work.  The technique is counting on this to be the case.

In the case of #2, the attacker will either attempt to drag again or be forced to move on to something else.

This technique and the issues with it however, display the primary weakness of wrestling in general: it relies on raw strength too much for all of its techniques. 

(ASIDE: That said, yes, I understand that having better wrestling can allow you to win against opponents who are stronger/bigger than you-- but bigger/stronger opponents is a greater disadvantage in wrestling than it is in _any_ other combat art I've ever encountered.  Wrestling works great, but it is _really_ un-fun to wrestle with guys who outweigh/outlift you, and I don't find that same issue in any of the other 10+ arts I've trained in. )


I guess the original point of this post is that the technique can work; but the weaknesses JowGa pointed out are true.  

*CLARIFICATION*: It will work due to momentum and balance.  The defender will have to spend a "beat" recovering balance and retrieving his arm position.  In that same moment, the attacker can simultaneously drop his level, and reposition his arm below the defender's.  Even if the defender recovers his arm to centre-mass at that point, the attacker's arm will be below it.  The question becomes whether the attacker is strong/skilled enough to move the defender _fully_ in the first place-- and if not, is he _fast_ enough to get his arm below the defender's anyway. 

It leaves a lot to circumstance, which a lot of martial artists (myself included) would argue means that it's not a very good/reliable technique.

You can consider my judgment in this biased, however, because I am not a fan of wrestling (despite that I still actively train in it today).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, I specifically said that the arm drag is NOT "crazy kung fu". I also said that the arm drag is definitely not exclusive to CMA, so it wouldn't fall under his own definition of "switch hands".


The definition of "switch hands" is:

1. Use your 1st hand to contact your opponent's body.
2. Use your 2nd hand to contact your opponent's body.
3. Free your 1st hand to do whatever that you want to do (such as wrap around your opponent's waist, punch on his face, ...).

It's like to play football. I carry the ball (my right hand). My opponent tries to stop me. My team member (my left hand) takes over the defense for me, so I can continue my running (free my right hand).

So the arm drag is a switch hands. But switch hands can be much more than just the arm drag.

The "switch hands" is a strategy/principle. It's not a single technique (such as arm drag).

What Bruce Lee did was a "switch hands". He first makes his right arm to contact on his opponent's right arm. He then let his left hand to take over (switch), this free his right hand, so his right hand can punch at his opponent's face.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

RavenDarkfellow said:


> It's true, that is the more likely outcome of this technique-- that the defender (red) will pull his arm back into position.  However, just as with Gung Fu (or any other style) of techniques, you have to examine this from a step-by-step moment-to-moment angle, and apply real-world physics, in order to discuss the theory.



Except JowGa is basing that observation on a demonstration of the principles of the technique, not the actual technique itself. The actual technique begins at 3:37 in this video. Feel free to critique that.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> So the arm drag *is* a switch hands.
> 
> The "switch hands" is a strategy/principle. *It's not a single technique (such as arm drag).*



You do understand that this is an inherent contradiction right?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You do understand that this is an inherent contradiction right?


The switch hands is a principle. The arm drag is a technique. The switch hands is a set. The arm drag is an element in that set.

If you start with a principle, the principle can map into many different techniques. By using the definition of switch hands, many fancy CMA moves can be explained.

For example, this is a switch hands. You throw a right hammer fist and your opponent blocks it. You let your left hand to take over that block, your right hand then throw another hammer fist.

The switch hands exist in the Taiji form in many different place with many different applications.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

The switch hand principle make the CMA different from the boxing.

- In boxing, if I throw a punch and you block, I will throw the 2nd punch aiming the opening that created by your block.
- In CMA, if I throw a punch and you block, I will use my other hand to take over your block, allow my punching hand to continue strike.

Which approach is better? IMO, boxing approach is faster. CMA approach is safer (because you can control one of your opponent's arms). Since CMA has arm control in mind, the CMA can be much easier to integrate the grappling art than the boxing art can.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The switch hand principle make the CMA different from the boxing.
> 
> - In boxing, if I throw a punch and you block, I will throw the 2nd punch aiming the opening that created by your block.
> - In CMA, if I throw a punch and you block, I will use my other hand to take over your block, allow my punching hand to continue strike.
> ...



You didn't answer my question.....

Anyway, the boxing approach is better because having both your hands engaged in that fashion leaves you open to a counter attack. I don't know how you rationalize that it is safer.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You didn't answer my question.....
> 
> Anyway, the boxing approach is better because having both your hands engaged in that fashion leaves you open to a counter attack. I don't know how you rationalize that it is safer.


Which question? An element belong to a set?

You are a grappler. You know how important it is to be able to control your opponent's arm/arms. When I can use one of my arms to control one of your arms, I can use your arm to jam your other arm, so your other arm won't be able to punch me. It's safer for me in that sense.

If you and I fight, do you prefer to knock me down with 1 clean punch (CMA way of fight), or do you prefer to hit me 100 times and allow me to hit you 99 times (boxing way of fight)?

Here is an example to use your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. Can his opponent punch out with other hand? I think not.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which question? An element belong to a set?
> 
> You are a grappler. You know how important it is to be able to control your opponent's arm/arms. When I can use one of my arms to control one of your arms, I can use your arm to jam your other arm, so your other arm won't be able to punch me. It's safer for me in that sense.



Yeah, but you're talking about striking. If someone has blocked your strike, it's kind of weird to grab their block with your other hand and attempt to continue the blocked strike. You're overcommitting, and will more than likely get socked in the face. Honestly you'll probably get socked twice depending on how good of a counter puncher you're dealing with.

This isn't anything new btw. There's a reason San Shou/Sanda went with western boxing over traditional Chinese Kung Fu for their hand strikes.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you and I fight, do you prefer to knock me down with 1 clean punch (CMA way of fight), or do you prefer to hit me 100 times and allow me to hit you 99 times (boxing way of fight)?
> 
> Here is an example to use your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. Can his opponent punch out with other hand? I think not.



Uh, there's plenty of boxers who can knock you on your butt with one punch. Again, there's a reason professional fighters use western boxing over traditional Japanese and Chinese boxing. It's simply the superior method.

As for your gifs, I think you would be better served showing professional fighters using the theory you're talking about in actual fights. Bruce Lee for example looks great in demos, but he never fought professionally.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> If someone has blocked your strike, it's kind of weird to grab their block with your other hand and attempt to continue the blocked strike. You're overcommitting, and will more than likely get socked in the face. Honestly you'll probably get socked twice depending on how good of a counter puncher you're dealing with.


I truly don't understand what you are talking about here.

When I use switch hands, my 2nd hand will control my opponent's elbow joint (This will eliminate that arm mobility). I then push that arm to jam his other arm (This will eliminate his other arm mobility). Unless he has the 3rd arm. I just don't see where that punch can come out.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't believe the "switch hands" concept exist in non-CMA.


I’ve seen it demonstrated fairly often in Filipino martial arts.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I truly don't understand what you are talking about here.
> 
> When I use switch hands, my 2nd hand will control my opponent's elbow joint (This will eliminate that arm mobility). I then push that arm to jam his other arm (This will eliminate his other arm mobility). Unless he has the 3rd arm. I just don't see where that punch can come out.



It's kind of pointless debating theory when application has settled this decades ago. It's like arguing which weapon is better for the infantry, a musket or an assault rifle? Again, why do professional fighters (even Chinese based professional fighters) choose western boxing over Kung Fu for hand techniques if "switch hands" and CMA is the better option?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> It's kind of pointless debating theory when application has settled this decades ago. It's like arguing which weapon is better for the infantry, a musket or an assault rifle? Again, why do professional fighters (even Chinese based professional fighters) choose western boxing over Kung Fu for hand techniques if "switch hands" and CMA is the better option?


If you like arm drag, why don't you like switch hand? The switch hands is just more "abstract".

When I use the term "back hand reverse punch", MMA guy may say it's bad. But when I use the term "cross", MMA guy will say it's good. I don't understand. Both are the same thing with different terms.

One day when the striking art and the grappling art will be fully integrated, I guarantee that you will see switch hands concept be used in MMA. It's a nice bridge to link the striking art with the grappling art.

It's a principle. Whether you use it or not, It's all over the CMA.

Here is another switch hands in Taiji form.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you like arm drag, why don't you like switch hand? The switch hands is just more "abstract".



I like arm drags because they have actual applications beyond simple theory. I can actually view professional fighters utilize arm drags in a variety of positions and situations.

I can’t say the same for the switch hand scenario you mentioned earlier.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I use the term "back hand reverse punch", MMA guy may say it's bad. But when I use the term "cross", MMA guy will say it's good. I don't understand. Both are the same thing with different terms.
> 
> One day when the striking art and the grappling art will be fully integrated, I guarantee that you will see switch hands concept be used in MMA. It's a nice bridge to link the striking art with the grappling art.



That has already occurred, and it’s called MMA. I don’t see much of the “switch hands” you’re talking about, or anyone really utilizing CMA hand techniques. The vast majority have simply incorporated western boxing.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's a principle. Whether you use it or not, It's all over the CMA.




And that’s perfectly fine. My point is that those who do martial arts for a living, and have to utilize effective techniques to eat, sleep, and keep their lights on aren’t using that principle, and don’t believe that CMA principles are “safer” than western boxing principles.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I don’t see much of the “switch hands” you’re talking about, or anyone really utilizing CMA hand techniques. The vast majority have simply incorporated western boxing.


MMA is still too young.

I truly believe one day MMA guy will use switch hands to "set up" take down.

1. Right hand on the wrist.
2. Left hand on the elbow.
3. Right hand on the neck.

R-L-R is a switch hands.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Except JowGa is basing that observation on a demonstration of the principles of the technique, not the actual technique itself. The actual technique begins at 3:37 in this video. Feel free to critique that.







This dude is still fully compliant to the technique being demonstrated and leaves his arm hanging out longer than he would if this was  done against a resisting opponent.  The only way Red or anyone will be in such a position is if White can pull the arm enough to make Red feel as if he's going to fall forward.  (edited or if he can swing that opponents arm out of the way  which isn't what's he's doing for the technique he's demonstrating.)

Find one video where this is done against an resisting opponent as demonstrated here and then I'll agree with you.  But until then, Time and distance is always a factor in fighting.  You don't have time unless you can do something that makes your opponent waste time.  Such has making the opponent feel as if he's falling forward so that he wastes time by reacting to the sensation of falling forward instead of dealing with the attack.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> View attachment 27273
> 
> This dude is still fully compliant to the technique being demonstrated and leaves his arm hanging out longer than he would if this was  done against a resisting opponent.  The only way Red or anyone will be in such a position is if White can pull the arm enough to make Red feel as if he's going to fall forward.
> 
> Find one video where this is done against an resisting opponent as demonstrated here and then I'll agree with you.  But until then, Time and distance is always a factor in fighting.  You don't have time unless you can do something that makes your opponent waste time.  Such has making the opponent feel as if he's falling forward so that he wastes time by reacting to the sensation of falling forward instead of dealing with the attack.



Here’s Marcelo Garcia doing it against multiple people;


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> MMA is still too young.
> 
> I truly believe one day MMA guy will use switch hands to "set up" take down.
> 
> ...



MMA is almost 30 years old. How much longer you think it’s going to take?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Here’s Marcelo Garcia doing it against multiple people;


That's the arm Pinning Against the Body.  That's not what was being demonstrated. In the other video.  I didn't ask if the Arm Drag works.  I already know it works.  The issue I was pointing out was having the arm take the long way around as shown in this video.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's the arm Pinning Against the Body.  That's not what was being demonstrated. In the other video.  I didn't ask if the Arm Drag works.  I already know it works.  The issue I was pointing out was having the arm take the long way around as shown in this video.
> 
> View attachment 27274



The videos that you showed does not show this.  How do I know, because I was looking for a video that shows this technique of moving the arm to the inside to see if their arms took the long way around and I ran across that same video you posted.  Most people pin the arm and because the natural instinct is to pull the arm out in order to free it, the end up in a worse position.  That video that you showed does not show this.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Here’s Marcelo Garcia doing it against multiple people;






Nothing in that video shows this. Your videos shows that arm being pinned.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Nothing in that video shows this. Your videos shows that arm being pinned.



From the video;


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> MMA is almost 30 years old. How much longer you think it’s going to take?


Just give another 30 more years. This is why JKD is not a complete system yet. Bruce Lee died too young.

We don't see any foot sweep used in the 1st or 2nd UFC fight. But today we have seen it's used in UFC.


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## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just give another 30 more years. This is why JKD is not a complete system yet. Bruce Lee died too young.
> 
> We don't see any foot sweep used in the 1st or 2nd UFC fight. But today we have seen it's used in UFC.



Uh huh. 🤣


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> From the video;
> View attachment 27276






Sorry this isn't it   If this was the same as that other video then .  Black would moved to Blue's left side by pulling Blue's arm through the middle.  From there,  Black's back should be pointing more to us. 

Here's what happens

Black moves into inside of Blues arm.  This is why we can clearly see Blues arm.  Had the arm been pulled through the middle, then we would not be able to see Blue's arm.  




Black drops through the center.  Notice we can still see Blue's arm on the outside.  We can also see Black drive under the arm moving to the right.  If he was doing the same move as in the video, he would  have been moving to the left based on the arm he was dragging.





Where we see that Black is not on the left side of Blue.  The arm that he was dragging was Blues Right arm, Not the left.





This position above is not the same as this one. below.  The one below he goes to the side of the arm he was dragging.  At top he goes to the side of the arm that he wasn't dragging.  I watch the video frame by frame.  Keep looking.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just give another 30 more years. This is why JKD is not a complete system yet. Bruce Lee died too young.
> 
> We don't see any foot sweep used in the 1st or 2nd UFC fight. But today we have seen it's used in UFC.


MMA has been doing pulling off sweeps for a while.  But they are like comets that show up ever 70 years.   

A nicely done back sweep at 1:15  It was about as text book as you probably will get in MMA
1:54 is another Traditional sweep.  Those  and the cung le one that you showed is in there.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> View attachment 27277
> 
> Sorry this isn't it   If this was the same as that other video then .  Black would moved to Blue's left side by pulling Blue's arm through the middle.  From there,  Black's back should be pointing more to us.
> 
> ...



At first you said the problem was that the arm wasn't being pinned. Now you're saying the issue is that the takedown isn't on the same side as the arm that was being dragged?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 12, 2021)

By the way, this is the actual technique being demonstrated.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> How's it going Oily?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> From the video;
> View attachment 27276


I don't understand why the MMA single leg doesn't use the other hand to push on the shoulder (or neck)? You will have longer axis and it will make your take down easier.

Do you know why?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand why the MMA single leg doesn't use the other hand to push on the shoulder (or neck)? You will have longer axis and it will make your take down easier.
> 
> Do you know why?



What do you mean by an “MMA single leg”? There’s a wide variety of single leg takedowns.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> At first you said the problem was that the arm wasn't being pinned


I'm pretty sure I didn't say this. I think you get confused because you move the original focus about the spear arm /hand


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> JowGaWolf said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure I didn't say this. I think you get confused because you move the original focus about the spear arm /hand
> ...



?????????????????????????????

Let's rewind; YOU were the one who originally linked this video because you erroneously believed that he was initiating an arm drag using a spear hand (and that it had some bizarre link to Kung fu forms). When that was proven false, you moved the goalpost over to this guy not knowing how to do an arm drag, or that doing an arm drag opens you up to counters. Then you asked me to show you an arm drag takedown with a resisting opponent, so when I showed you multiple from Marcelo Garcia, you moved the goalposts again and demanded that I show you an arm drag where the arm isn't pinned. When I showed you such a takedown, you moved the goalposts once again.

I'm just trying to keep up with the shifting arguments here before we move forward.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Let's rewind; YOU were the one who originally linked this video because you erroneously believed that he was initiating an arm drag using a spear hand (and that it had some bizarre link to Kung fu forms).


Those are 2 different things.  The kung fu form video was posted about another conversation and I asked you to show me what you thought was fluff.  That video had double spear hand and I explained what it was.  

Spear hand is simple.  Move your hand in a direct line from point A to B.  It is a linear movement.  Term spear hand simply means your hand is not closed.  Which is what the guy did with the arm drag.  Linear is a shorter distance than circular.  This movement is often used as an entry movement between tight spots, and in cases where using circular movements will cause problems with a grappling attempt


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Those are 2 different things.  The kung fu form video was posted about another conversation and I asked you to show me what you thought was fluff.  That video had double spear hand and I explained what it was.
> 
> Spear hand is simple.  Move your hand in a direct line from point A to B.  It is a linear movement.  Term spear hand simply means your hand is not closed.  Which is what the guy did with the arm drag.  Linear is a shorter distance than circular.  This movement is often used as an entry movement between tight spots, and in cases where using circular movements will cause problems with a grappling attempt



But once again, he was not doing a spear hand as a part of the technique. He was merely showing where the hands should go after the drag.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> When that was proven false, you moved the goalpost over to this guy not knowing how to do an arm drag, or that doing an arm drag opens you up to counters.


I never moved the goal post.  I'm still on spear hand and that video where he does the arm drag and moves on the other side of the arm while getting under the arm.  The video that you showed was not the same because he didn't move to the same side as the arm drag.

Moving to the opposite side not only changes the follow up after the arm drag it changes what must be dealt with.

Arm Drag + move to out side of arm drag while initiating body grab under the arm 
Arm Drag + move to the inside of arm drag while pinning opposite arm are not the same thing.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> But once again, he was not doing a spear hand as a part of the technique. He was merely showing where the hands should go after the drag.


That why I told you to show me a video of that exact arm drag to take down exactly the way he's demonstrating it.  He didn't pin the arm that he's dragging,  So any videos that show that are not the same thing.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That why I told you to show me a video of that exact arm drag to take down exactly the way he's demonstrating it.  He didn't pin the arm that he's dragging,  So any videos that show that are not the same thing.



See post #355.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> See post #355.


That's a demo, it not done against a resisting partner. There's not even a small struggle.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 13, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand why the MMA single leg doesn't use the other hand to push on the shoulder (or neck)? You will have longer axis and it will make your take down easier.
> 
> Do you know why?



You have more attacks with a traditional single leg.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's a demo, it not done against a resisting partner. There's not even a small struggle.


You are incorrect. It just looks that way because Marcelo Garcia is so good that he makes any non-elite grappler look like they're not even trying to resist.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's a demo, it not done against a resisting partner. There's not even a small struggle.



Not the point. The point is that he isn’t using a spear hand to do an arm drag to takedown.

And neither is Marcelo Garcia.


----------



## Steve (Sep 13, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You are incorrect. It just looks that way because Marcelo Garcia is so good that he makes any non-elite grappler look like they're not even trying to resist.


There was a time, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, he would make most elite grapplers look that way, too.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> There was a time, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, he would make most elite grapplers look that way, too.


Including a number of elite grapplers who were much bigger than him.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You are incorrect. It just looks that way because Marcelo Garcia is so good that he makes any non-elite grappler look like they're not even trying to resist.


You do know that I'm talking about this video right?





This is the video that I'm referring to as a demo and the opponent not resisting.  Hanzou tries to change the subject on stuff and start talking about stuff people never said. 

Now one in the world can make me believe that Red is trying to resist  the arm drag..

Literally out of the words of his mouth at 3:18   "I'm going to drop my level. And this hand is gonna go underneath his arm. "  Then as he (White) continues to bring his arm close to the his center of his own body after it clears the arm and "strikes" downward to secure the grasp around the hip.

That small portion of moving the hand around the arm in that manner is the the same concept that Jow Ga uses with our spear hand.  Hanzou said said that the "Spear Hand" was archaic in fluff. My question was how can it be Archaic / fluff when they are the same concept movement.  That movement may be known by different names.  In BJJ it's one name in Kung Fu it's a spear hand/ arm movement. I train Kung Fu so when I see that movement that is what I call it.

I'm not saying that the BJJ guy took kung fu.  That's Hanzou's argument. But what I'm am saying is that same concept of moving the arm that way is in kung fu.  And in Kung Fu it's called a spear hand. 

I've been saying this since Hanzou called the clip of the Jow Ga form fluff.  That's the point of my discussion.   "He is not doing spear hand" was never my argument.

And also again. What he does here at 3:19





Is not the same follow up after the arm drag that Hanzou showed in Marcelo Garcia clips.   Hanzou has a habit of dragging out a topic and the slowly changing the focus to something that the poster never claimed.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Including a number of elite grapplers who were much bigger than him.





JowGaWolf said:


> You do know that I'm talking about this video right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, anyone actually watching that video and not just stopping it at the 3:19 mark will know that he is clearly not using the spear hand for the arm drag. Like seriously, just watch 10 more seconds after that mark, it isn't that hard.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, anyone actually watching that video and not just stopping it at the 3:19 mark will know that he is clearly not using the spear hand for the arm drag.


The move that I'm talking about comes after the arm drag.  If you can't get that right then there's no way you can understand kung fu.  Either that or you are intentionally saying things that people never stated or claimed for the purpose of misleading others.

At this point I don't care anymore.  If you can't identify the movement that I'm talking about then there's no point.  It's like me telling you what tree is and when I asked you to show me what I'm talking about, you point to the sky, and then proceed to make an argument that the sky doesn't have leaves.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You do know that I'm talking about this video right?


Gotcha, I thought you were referring to the post where Hanzou showed a clip of Marcelo Garcia pulling off that move in live sparring.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 13, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The move that I'm talking about comes after the arm drag.  If you can't get that right then there's no way you can understand kung fu.  Either that or you are intentionally saying things that people never stated or claimed for the purpose of misleading others.
> 
> At this point I don't care anymore.  If you can't identify the movement that I'm talking about then there's no point.  It's like me telling you what tree is and when I asked you to show me what I'm talking about, you point to the sky, and then proceed to make an argument that the sky doesn't have leaves.



Where's the Spear hand?







Answer: There isn't one.

Seriously, Kata Bunkai (and whatever the equivalent is in Chinese martial art forms) is simply the worst.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 14, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am more judging by the first few UFC where there's no rule other than no eyes gouging, no biting. It's very clear what style can stand up to the test and who cannot. Yes, there is more rules now, but still it's the closest to real fight.
> 
> I cannot relate to what you say about weapon in FMA. We are talking about bare knuckle fighting here only. Weapon is a different category. In fact the only reason I am here on this forum is because I recently picked up FMA stick fight using a cane because of my age. Bringing a cane into self defense against people with no weapon or even a small knife is a game changer because of the increase in reach of the cane and hit much harder with a cane. Actually I am practice the one using both hands on the cane, I forgot the name at the moment. It is FMA for sure. I have been watching different styles of stick fight and I find FMA is the best. I am still practicing hard on it.




Good for picking up FMA.
FMA also has lots of empty hands. 

And I disagree about the early UFCs about arts or styles. 
It was about what those people did on those nights.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


>


Further discussion on this clip, what can white do to prevent red from pushing white backward (or side way)?

When red does that, there is no way that white can move his arm from inside of red's arm to outside of red's arm.

This is why I believe when you train arm drag, you should also train how to:

- counter it.
- counter the counter.

This is what I'm talking about.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Further discussion on this clip, what can white do to prevent red from pushing white backward (or side way)?
> 
> When red does that, there is no way that white can move his arm from inside of red's arm to outside of red's arm.
> 
> ...



Well for starters you wouldn't go that deep in an arm drag. He's so deep in that clip (pretty much up into the arm pit) that he has no space to change levels or even move the arm off the center line. I really don't know what he was trying to do here.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Further discussion on this clip, what can white do to prevent red from pushing white backward (or side way)?
> 
> When red does that, there is no way that white can move his arm from inside of red's arm to outside of red's arm.
> 
> ...


This will work, but I'm not sure oh often it will work with BJJ.  BJJ often tries to go to the outside of that arm drag.  I've thought of similar things only to run into some doubts because of how they step which makes me thing the method in which they do things is informed of this reality.

The arm drag is the set up point or entry to something else. But it's really difficult to say what a counter will be.  Grappling Only doesn't take into consideration striking so there are some stances in the previous videos that would not be recommended for dealing with someone who make punch, kick, or knee.

I have to give it some thought on the various type of scenarios in which the counter you have shown will work.  The way that BJJ does the arm drag would result in a lost point in Shuai Jiao as soon as their knee hits the ground right?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 15, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This will work, but I'm not sure oh often it will work with BJJ.  BJJ often tries to go to the outside of that arm drag.  I've thought of similar things only to run into some doubts because of how they step which makes me thing the method in which they do things is informed of this reality.
> 
> The arm drag is the set up point or entry to something else. But it's really difficult to say what a counter will be.  Grappling Only doesn't take into consideration striking so there are some stances in the previous videos that would not be recommended for dealing with someone who make punch, kick, or knee.
> 
> I have to give it some thought on the various type of scenarios in which the counter you have shown will work.  The way that BJJ does the arm drag would result in a lost point in Shuai Jiao as soon as their knee hits the ground right?



Yes, arm drag tends to come into play most often in grappling only comps. It’s relatively rare in MMA.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Gotcha, I thought you were referring to the post where Hanzou showed a clip of Marcelo Garcia pulling off that move in live sparring.


I figured that things got confusing or the whole world got crazy lol.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 15, 2021)

Just give more time, we will see CMA guys compete in MMA more and more.

Just got an E-mail from one of my students. He told me that one of my other student's student competed in MMA. 

"Did you know Kirks student Adam competed in a MMA event less than a month ago and beat the guy in less than a minute. This was in San Antonio. ..."


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, arm drag tends to come into play most often in grappling only comps. It’s relatively rare in MMA.


This is why the arm wrap is more useful in MMA than arm drag. After you have controlled your opponent's arm, you don't need to redirect it to the other arm. It becomes 1 step instead of 2 steps.

The arm drag can allow you to move from the side door to the front door (or the other way around). The arm wrap won't give you that ability. But for striking art, the door changing ability is not that important.

It will be unlikely that one day we will see the shoulder throw be used in MMA. IMO, by using the MMA method, many useful principles (such as arm drag, shoulder throw, ...) may be de-emphasized. MMA guys will not train those skills. Not sure that's a good for the MA in the long run.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why the arm wrap is more useful in MMA than arm drag. After you have controlled your opponent's arm, you don't need to redirect it to the other arm. It becomes 1 step instead of 2 steps.
> 
> The arm drag can allow you to move from the side door to the front door (or the other way around). The arm wrap won't give you that ability. But for striking art, the door changing ability is not that important.
> 
> ...



The MMA method is simply what works in a fight versus “fluff” that either never works or is very low percentage. There is no scenario where people simply aren’t doing a useful technique in MMA. In reality, what’s happening is someone tried that technique in training or in a match and get punished heavily for it.

Personally, I feel that MMA was a wonderful advancement for martial arts. It cut through the crap and pulled back the curtain on all the charlatans who were ripping people off for years. As a whole, we’re far better martial artists now than we were 30 years ago, and it’s entirely thanks to the first UFC.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 16, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, arm drag tends to come into play most often in grappling only comps. It’s relatively rare in MMA.



Used against the cage a bit?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Used against the cage a bit?



Is it? That would make sense. Can you post some examples?


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's about time, but not really.  I always knew this kick was bad news.  Straight out of the Kung Fu Manual.  Kung Fu gets a bad image, but there is some really dangerous end game type stuff in there.  Sucks to have that knee blown out like that.  Hopefully it's not career ending
> 
> View attachment 27231



You can might as well chalk it up for Kung Fu whenever a chambered roundhouse kick with the instep (or ball of the foot) wins a fight... That's in kung fu too.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 18, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> You can might as well chalk it up for Kung Fu whenever a chambered roundhouse kick with the instep (or ball of the foot) wins a fight... That's in kung fu too.


I would do it for any system that uses / trains that technique.  Even if the fighter doesn't train in the system.  We only have 2 arms and 2 legs so there's going to be a limit on how one physically move to perform a side kick.  This is the same for a roundhouse kick, which is why so many systems have the same or similar techniques that were developed independent of each other.  While there's no way to know who "invented" the round house kick.  There are ways to look back through various fighting systems to see which systems use it and when.  A lot of the things that we see in UFC are things that came from other systems. 

One only has to look at UFC 1 as proof.  Everyone in UFC came and fought with techniques from systems that existed before UFC 1.    Even the concept of MMA (mixed martial arts).  Is not a new one.  There are many old fighting systems out there that blended different martial arts systems together to make it one fighting system.  The only difference is that MMA is not a fighting system.   All MMA gyms do not teach the same fighting techniques.

If I go to a Muay Thai school in the US and one in the Thailand, then I can expect to see similar approaches and the same techniques.The same cannot be said with MMA.  There's no uniform agreement or defined requirement for what makes an MMA fighting system.  

In my mind,  MMA is like a cake that hasn't been baked. It doesn't matter what ingredients you mix if you don't plan on baking it.   Karate, Jow Ga Kung Fu, Muay Thai, BJJ, White crane Kung Fu are baked cakes.  If you want a Muay Thai cake then you use the same Muay Thai ingredients.  I cannot just throw fighting systems together and get Muay Thai cake.  The ingredients of the cake are like the techniques that make the cake.  So every cake may use butter and sugar, which is similar to multiple systems using the same techniques.

The issue that I see with UFC and MMA fans is that many believe that other systems don't use the same valid techniques.  Even though they have been using those same ingredients (techniques) for centuries to bake cakes (create fighting systems) that existed long before UFC existed.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would do it for any system that uses / trains that technique.  Even if the fighter doesn't train in the system.  We only have 2 arms and 2 legs so there's going to be a limit on how one physically move to perform a side kick.  This is the same for a roundhouse kick, which is why so many systems have the same or similar techniques that were developed independent of each other.  While there's no way to know who "invented" the round house kick.  There are ways to look back through various fighting systems to see which systems use it and when.  A lot of the things that we see in UFC are things that came from other systems.
> 
> One only has to look at UFC 1 as proof.  Everyone in UFC came and fought with techniques from systems that existed before UFC 1.    Even the concept of MMA (mixed martial arts).  Is not a new one.  There are many old fighting systems out there that blended different martial arts systems together to make it one fighting system.  The only difference is that MMA is not a fighting system.   All MMA gyms do not teach the same fighting techniques.
> 
> ...


To be absolutely precise, there are subtle differences between Kung fu roundhouse and side kicks compared to TaeKwonDo.  In particular back posture. They are quite identical to old Japanese Karate styles though.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 18, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would do it for any system that uses / trains that technique.  Even if the fighter doesn't train in the system.  We only have 2 arms and 2 legs so there's going to be a limit on how one physically move to perform a side kick.  This is the same for a roundhouse kick, which is why so many systems have the same or similar techniques that were developed independent of each other.  While there's no way to know who "invented" the round house kick.  There are ways to look back through various fighting systems to see which systems use it and when.  A lot of the things that we see in UFC are things that came from other systems.
> 
> One only has to look at UFC 1 as proof.  Everyone in UFC came and fought with techniques from systems that existed before UFC 1.    Even the concept of MMA (mixed martial arts).  Is not a new one.  There are many old fighting systems out there that blended different martial arts systems together to make it one fighting system.  The only difference is that MMA is not a fighting system.   All MMA gyms do not teach the same fighting techniques.
> 
> ...



Uh, there’s definitely martial arts systems that will never be taught in a MMA gym, and there are martial arts systems that you will almost always find being offered in a MMA gym. The idea that MMA is just random arts thrown together is nonsense. You have standup and grappling, and pretty much everyone knows where to go to get coaches for either one.

Which is why when that clown Shawn Obasi showed up to a MMA camp doing Wing Chun, the coaches immediately  told him that he needed to learn Muay Thai because they didn’t want him to get killed.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 20, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Which is why when that clown Shawn Obasi showed up to a MMA camp doing Wing Chun, the coaches immediately  told him that he needed to learn Muay Thai because they didn’t want him to get killed.



Which is super funny, because both arts are so similar in so many ways.

Sean went in howling he was a "Wing Chun man", and came out just howling, as it was meant to be.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 20, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> To be absolutely precise, there are subtle differences between Kung fu roundhouse and side kicks compared to TaeKwonDo.  In particular back posture. They are quite identical to old Japanese Karate styles though.


Any particular kung fu method you are referring to here? Because there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, many of which are dramatically different from each other.  How many have you seen?


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 25, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Which is super funny, because both arts are so similar in so many ways.
> 
> Sean went in howling he was a "Wing Chun man", and came out just howling, as it was meant to be.



I don't think a WC or MT practitioner would agree with that assessment.

But yes, Obasi is a moron, but I do give him credit for attempting to bring authentic Wing Chun into MMA. Unfortunately like so many Kung Fu guys before him, he quickly realized that his training left him woefully incapable of being effective in an actual fighting situation.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Sep 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If my last school tried to run our school like this, then we would have lost many customers who want to learn Kung Fu but not for fighting.  To give you When I started doing Kung fu sparring classes on a regular bases.  The class went empty for a year before any of the current student's joined.



Did you force them all to spar or gave them the option?



JowGaWolf said:


> Out of 25 students only 5 wanted to take that path and only 2 had the skill set and toughness to compete in MMA.  1 of the 2 wouldn't have done it because he's a surgeon.  A lot of the students were children.



I guess the damage has been done by nearly 30 years of UFC.  TMA's doesn't seem to attract enough of the competitive types any longer.



JowGaWolf said:


> The adults students had Jobs that were better than fighting MMA so there's no incentive to get busted up for less money.



Working at McDonald's usually pays better than fighting MMA for money. I was referring to fighting as a hobby or even just 1-5 fights only.




JowGaWolf said:


> They were satisfied with being able to protect themselves in the street and to have the ability to say that they know how to use Kung Fu, which is a big deal considering most student's don't know how to use the martial arts that they train as for self defense.  They can do the basics but that's usually where it sticks.
> 
> Fighting at a high competition level comes with a lot of things that most people just don't want to deal with.
> 
> Everyone is fearful because people keep dying for it.  My friend just contacted me 2 days ago and told me his mom died from Covid.  No one wants to die from something that could have been avoided.  No parent wants to there kid to die from either.  Parent's should protect their kids and when they can't or don't many will feel as if they are to blame, even  if they aren't.



I'm sorry to hear about your friend's mother's death. Was she vaccinated? No doubt that Covid is real, but I'm just wondering why hardly anyone dies of the flu, pneumonia, etc. any longer since.



JowGaWolf said:


> As for the schools making money.  I find that to be more of a business knowledge issue as to why TMA schools do not do well with attracting students.  When I was teaching we were getting a lot of students and were actually running out of training space.  The thing that attracted the student's was my ability to use Jow Ga.  In short, someone says I can teach you how to use Kung Fu.  The customer will think "Show me that you can use kung fu."  Most people who want to learn Kung Fu for self-defense wants to learn from someone who can actually use it.    Normally schools will showcase trophies, but for me, I would show case my sparring and my training methods.
> 
> Students weren't looking for Professional fighter grade training.  Professional fighter grade training is unrealistic for many people since the amount of training would interfere with other parts of their life.  I even had other Jow Ga students from other schools seek my help.  But politically that's not a good thing since I'm not a Sifu.
> 
> Kung Fu and Martial Arts don't have the same limitations as systems that are heavily focused on grappling.  I can provide quality training to students with less contact than what BJJ, Judo, or wrestler's need.



May I ask you a question from your perspective as a Black American?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Did you force them all to spar or gave them the option?


My understanding of "Force" is to make someone do something that they don't want to do.  We market so we would only attract the people that we wanted to train.

Instead of saying.  I want to teach martial arts to people.  Our thinking was.  I want to teach martial arts to people who have a specific interest.  That way you get the type of people you want.  For example, the people we wanted to train fall into one or more categories.
1. People who want to learn Kung Fu
2. People who wanted to get fit
3. People who wanted to learn how to use Kung Fu
4. People who were looking for self-defense.

By targeting specific types of people, there's no need to Force someone.  You want people to be there because they want to be there. The closest thing to being force to do something was sparring for kids. Most kids parents wanted to take kung fu because of self-defense. They wanted their child to be able to physically fight if needed.  So right off the back we were honest with parents.  We told them that their child would need to spar, no exceptions.  If the parent wanted that for their child, then that's what the child had to do even if they didn't want to.  There were some kids who dreaded sparring, but there were others who naturally fell into as it was like "rough play" for them.  That's the closet to "Force" that we got.  But in my mind, it's not forcing, it's a requirement and part of what is done to learn how to use Kung Fu.

Force to me would be like you coming to learn kung fu for exercise and I force you to do sparring and deal with having bruises and having to deal with the fear of getting hurt.  We didn't force people into situations like that.   

There were some people who came for social aspect and stayed for more than 8 years and learned very little.   This student usually showed up when he felt like he needed to get in shape.  That was his thing.  We didn't force him to do anything, including learning Kung Fu.  His time, his Money.  His money helped keep the school open.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your friend's mother's death. Was she vaccinated? No doubt that Covid is real, but I'm just wondering why hardly anyone dies of the flu, pneumonia, etc. any longer since.


When I talked to my friend he said that he was letting me know how important it is to get the vaccination.  He was letting everyone he knows that she died from Covid and that she wasn't vaccinated.  



jayoliver00 said:


> May I ask you a question from your perspective as a Black American?


Sure. I don't mind talking about things like that.  You are the first person that who has even bother to ask me.   So ask away.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 25, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> Did you force them all to spar or gave them the option?


In my class, I used to use the sparring as part of the warm up. Students will make 2 circles. One person in the inside circle will spar with another person in the outside circle. After 1 minute, the outside circle will rotate and students will spar with different opponents. This way, any student can spar with many different opponents. Since it's part of the warm up sequence, they don't have any option not to participate.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In my class, I used to use the sparring as part of the warm up. Students will make 2 circles. One person in the inside circle will spar with another person in the outside circle. After 1 minute, the outside circle will rotate and students will spar with different opponents. This way, any student can spar with many different opponents. Since it's part of the warm up sequence, they don't have any option not to participate.


I tried to sell light sparring as a good way to stay fit.  It didn't go to well.  Many of the students thought sparring meant (knock the other person's head off).  I had one student that broke down and decided to give it a try.  We did light sparring and none of his fears came true.  He told me that it was great exercise and a lot harder than he thought.  He said that he thought that he was going to be hit hard.  So I said, "Not unless you want to be hit hard." lol.  

I think most people only know sparring as hitting each other hard.  So I may have to market sparring as something other than sparring in the future.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I had one student that broke down and decided to give it a try. We did light sparring and none of his fears came true.


This is why sparring, even light, is an important part of MA.  Introduced properly to the (reluctant) student, it shows that fear is not to be avoided, but overcome.  Overcoming increasingly difficult challenges leads to confidence, and confidence leads to accomplishment.

Vigorous two-man drills are good to develop effective application that works in real self-defense situations, however, are not a substitute.  The spontaneity of sparring is missing, in both physical and tactical reactions on the fly.

IMO, the more elements of training used, the more complete a martial artist will become:  Solo basic drills, two-man drills, forms, exercises, conditioning, and sparring.  The school will emphasize some of these more than others, as will the individual student.  But all should be included as at least some part of the program.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Many of the students thought sparring meant (knock the other person's head off).


I told my students that in that 1 minute sparring, if none of your opponent's attack can land on your body, you are already a winner. I did enjoy very much to spar with my students and I only played defense. Is that what self-defense is for that your opponent cannot hurt you?


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I don't think a WC or MT practitioner would agree with that assessment.
> 
> But yes, Obasi is a moron, but I do give him credit for attempting to bring authentic Wing Chun into MMA. Unfortunately like so many Kung Fu guys before him, he quickly realized that his training left him woefully incapable of being effective in an actual fighting situation.



They would probably agree if they trained both, because both are standup styles that grew up as neighbors that contain the same basic things. Wing Chun is nothing more than a small subset mashup of Southern Shaolin hands and weapons, as Muay Thai is nothing more than a small subset of Muay Boran.

The big difference is one became a fighting sport and the other sort of fell into the ether and lost its roots and became Wing Chun, devoid of fighting spirit.  The core art is still worth training, but unfortunately not by itself because to even understand Wing Chun, you need to already have physical and mental discipline of a fighter.  Wing Chun doesn't teach you that.  That comes only from within.

As the fist poems say, sifu can teach you tiger and leopard, but dragon, snake, and crane belong to the Immortals.  

But the Southern loong is a powerful animal motif that applies to anything calling itself a martial art.  One can never see the whole dragon, only a bit of scale here and a bit of tail there.  Until he eats you.  What a poetic martial metaphor.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> When I talked to my friend he said that he was letting me know how important it is to get the vaccination.  He was letting everyone he knows that she died from Covid and that she wasn't vaccinated.
> 
> 
> Sure. I don't mind talking about things like that.  You are the first person that who has even bother to ask me.   So ask away.



Hey thanks. So it seems that a lot of the unvaccinated are Black Americans, proportionally; I could be wrong. I have my reasons for myself, but do you know why this is so for many Blacks?


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> My understanding of "Force" is to make someone do something that they don't want to do.  We market so we would only attract the people that we wanted to train.
> 
> Instead of saying.  I want to teach martial arts to people.  Our thinking was.  I want to teach martial arts to people who have a specific interest.  That way you get the type of people you want.  For example, the people we wanted to train fall into one or more categories.
> 1. People who want to learn Kung Fu
> ...



I really like your explanation and how you run your school. 

I'm just still astounded by how BJJ is still going strong, even during 2020 when Covid didn't have the vaccine yet. Doing BJJ is just too damn close contact for me and I ain't doing it; switching partners during sparring is 1000x worse.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 30, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm just still astounded by how BJJ is still going strong, even during 2020 when Covid didn't have the vaccine yet. Doing BJJ is just too damn close contact for me and I ain't doing it; switching partners during sparring is 1000x worse.


I took a year off from training, until the vaccines became available and my wife and I could get vaccinated. Some of my other BJJ friends formed small isolation pods to train with. Unfortunately, a lot of school owners kept classes going to the full extent that they could. I understand the motivation for those who were dependent on running a gym for their livelihoods, but BJJ is really about as high risk an activity as you can imagine for COVID transmission. If I were running a gym right now I would require proof of vaccination for anyone wanting to train. Of course, that’s easy for me to say given that I earn my living at my day job and teach just for the love of the art.


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