# Tiger/Crane Set



## RichK

Does anyone have or know where I can get a video of the Tiger/Crane set? Or has anyone made a video of themselves doing it.


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## Kenpo_man

I have no idea if you can order it or not but Al Tracy has a tape. I've been thinking of taping myself doing all the kata and if I ever get around to it I'll send you a copy.  Good luck!!!


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## parkerkarate

RichK said:
			
		

> Does anyone have or know where I can get a video of the Tiger/Crane set? Or has anyone made a video of themselves doing it.



Is this an American Kenpo form or a Kempo form?


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## Blindside

I'm assuming he is referring to the T&C that Parker adopted from Hung Gar with some modifications.  Eventually Mr. Parker dropped these in favor of the newer kenpo (number) forms.  TRACO and Tracy kenpo lineages still have it in their curricullums.  

Rich, check your PM.

Lamont


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## parkerkarate

Blindside said:
			
		

> I'm assuming he is referring to the T&C that Parker adopted from Hung Gar with some modifications.  Eventually Mr. Parker dropped these in favor of the newer kenpo (number) forms.  TRACO and Tracy kenpo lineages still have it in their curricullums.
> 
> Rich, check your PM.
> 
> Lamont



Ok than I am of no help than, thanks for the explination though.


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## RichK

Parkerkarate, ask Mr. Joe about it next time you are in town. The T/C set was developed by Mr Parker and I think Master Wong Fei Hong (but I can not remember who the Hung Gar Master was as Mr Parker did not give him credit and dropped the set later on). I have it written down but as no one teaches it anymore it is hard to tell where the precise hand movements are. Blindside, I'll get back to you later.


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## KenpoDave

RichK said:
			
		

> Does anyone have or know where I can get a video of the Tiger/Crane set? Or has anyone made a video of themselves doing it.



Al Tracy has one that he has put out.  You may also want to check with James Ibrao


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## Seabrook

RichK said:
			
		

> Does anyone have or know where I can get a video of the Tiger/Crane set? Or has anyone made a video of themselves doing it.


Hi Rich,

I know an advanced version of the Tiger and Crane Form (Chinese name: Fu Hok Surng Ying) but my guess is that it would be fairly different from the one the Tracy's do. I am also a black belt in kung fu so I had the opportunity of learning the form many years ago, and use it periodically when I choose to compete in a big open tournament. It's a little more "flashy" than most EPAK forms, but is very practical and offers a great balance of yin and yang (soft and hard) elements. The form is also amazing for building your endurance and is tough on your forearms and legs. 

BTW - thanks for letting me know about my e-book, "American Kenpo Mastery: A Guide for Students and Instructors" being sold on e-bay. No worries...it's my wife selling them. The only problem, I guess, is that she gets the money....the fun of marriage, eh?....lol.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## kenpochad

Blindside said:
			
		

> I'm assuming he is referring to the T&C that Parker adopted from Hung Gar with some modifications. Eventually Mr. Parker dropped these in favor of the newer kenpo (number) forms. TRACO and Tracy kenpo lineages still have it in their curricullums.
> Lamont


check this site out http://www.acskarate.com/newsletter/index.html
he teaches chinese kenpo he is in arizona or you might be able to get for a 
Bill Packer school i believe its akka they both teach Traco


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## kenpochad

A.K.K.A has a lot of school nation wide check to see if you have one in your area


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## marlon

This form is the heart of the hung gar system, fu hok sung yi i think is the name.  f i were you i would get it from a hung gar source rather than kempo/kenpo (to honour our masters seek not to become them...rather seek what they sought).  Your knowledge of kempo/kenpo will help you get a lot out of this form.  I believe parts of Northern and Southern Tigers were at least inspired by this form.


Respectfully,
Marlon


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## parkerkarate

RichK said:
			
		

> Parkerkarate, ask Mr. Joe about it next time you are in town. The T/C set was developed by Mr Parker and I think Master Wong Fei Hong (but I can not remember who the Hung Gar Master was as Mr Parker did not give him credit and dropped the set later on). I have it written down but as no one teaches it anymore it is hard to tell where the precise hand movements are. Blindside, I'll get back to you later.



Ok will do


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## Seabrook

marlon said:
			
		

> I believe parts of Northern and Southern Tigers were at least inspired by this form.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


True, but I think you meant Northern and Southern Kung Fu styles, not Northern and Southern TIGERS. 

The tiger and crane offers a blend of external and internal techniques. The tiger (external) represents strength and aggression, while the crane (internal) is effective at utilizing angles of defense and countering with snapping strikes similar to a cranes beak.
 
In general, Northern styles of Kung Fu tend to emphasize long range punching, striking and kicking. Practitioners of northern Kung Fu styles must also strive to maintain or improve their flexibility due to the higher and often more acrobatickicks involved relative to southern styles. Conversely, southern styles of Kung Fu place more emphasis on utilizing hand techniques in short range fighting, while kicking techniques tends to be much lower (i.e. to areas such as the shin, knee and groin area).

Hope that helps.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook

Like the Book Set, the Tiger and Crane Form is also an original Hung Gar Kung Fu form and came from Jimmy Woo. Ed Parker began teaching this form in the early 1960s but only on a temporary basis until he had devised more advanced Kenpo forms. Like the Panther Set, Ed Parker made several modifications to the form before dropping it altogether. The form is excellent for competition but doesnt belong in a "Kenpo division" since it is not an American Kenpo form. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## RichK

Thank you Jamie, I couldn't remember who it was. The T/C set is different than the T/C form (the set is a shorter version, yes they both came from Hung Gar). The Book Set, Panther Set and T/C set were all created in the infancy of EPAK and were dropped later on, but I just wanted to learn it but is difficult as no one teaches it anymore.


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## Michael Billings

The Fu-Hok form I learned in the NCKKA (National Chinese Kenpo Karate Association), was modified somewhat for tournaments, but evolved back to the more traditional form as Gary Swan spent more time with Buk Sum Kong.

 Ours Chinese Kenpo was an offshoot of TRACO in the early days I believe.  Then Mr. LaBounty, Gary Swan, and a couple of others started the NCKKA and we did Tiger and Crane and Book Set.

 -Michael


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## Seabrook

RichK said:
			
		

> The Book Set, Panther Set and T/C set were all created in the infancy of EPAK and were dropped later on, but I just wanted to learn it but is difficult as no one teaches it anymore.


*The Book Set is the Panther Set* - they go by both of those names. I can't remember why but I bet Ron Chapel would probably know.

I teach the Tiger and Crane as well as the Book Set, but only to my very dedicated advanced students (brown- black), particularly those with a desire to learn them. They are not required in EPAK, and likewise, I don't require any of my students to know them.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Seabrook

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> The Fu-Hok form I learned in the NCKKA (National Chinese Kenpo Karate Association), was modified somewhat for tournaments, but evolved back to the more traditional form as Gary Swan spent more time with Buk Sum Kong.
> 
> Ours Chinese Kenpo was an offshoot of TRACO in the early days I believe. Then Mr. LaBounty, Gary Swan, and a couple of others started the NCKKA and we did Tiger and Crane and Book Set.
> 
> -Michael


Hi Michael,

Do you require your students to learn Book Set and/or Tiger and Crane? Do you still practice these forms?

Cheers Bro,
Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## RichK

Sorry, I am starting to confuse myself again. Getting old is h***


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## RichK

Hey guess what I found? This was brought up 3 years ago. I found this quote from GD7 "Yes, I learned this set back in 1975. It is a fun yet challenging set. Hmmmm Let me think about the video stuff." Gee I wonder if he got it together so I can get a hold of it hehe.


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## Michael Billings

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Hi Michael,
> 
> Do you require your students to learn Book Set and/or Tiger and Crane? Do you still practice these forms?
> 
> Cheers Bro,
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


 I have retained them, but have not taught them in years.  I have a couple of guys who might be ready for and want them, so we will see.

 -Michael


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## marlon

Seabrook said:
			
		

> True, but I think you meant Northern and Southern Kung Fu styles, not Northern and Southern TIGERS.
> 
> 
> Northern and southern Tigers are forms in the shaolin kempo system.  i believe intoduced by master Fritz who studied kung fu...i know not which style
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Seabrook said:
			
		

> *The Book Set is the Panther Set* - they go by both of those names. I can't remember why...


According to Al Tracy, the Panther Set was originally intended to be the form depicted in Ed Parker's _Secrets of Chinese Karate_.  It was practiced so often in preparation for this, it came to be referred to as the Book Set.  Later SGM Parker dropped the Panther Set from the book in favor of the Two Man Set (aka the Black Belt Set).
Hope this helps.


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## Doc

Seabrook said:
			
		

> *The Book Set is the Panther Set* - they go by both of those names. I can't remember why but I bet Ron Chapel would probably know.
> 
> I teach the Tiger and Crane as well as the Book Set, but only to my very dedicated advanced students (brown- black), particularly those with a desire to learn them. They are not required in EPAK, and likewise, I don't require any of my students to know them.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


Can't a brother get some sleep? I already have a couple of questions pending on another thread.  OK this one is easy so;

The "Book Set" and "Panther Set" are the same. Originally coming from Hung Gar as the "Panther Form or Set," it was included in Parker's Book, Secret's of Chinese Karate," via Jimmy Woo with a dash of Lao Bun. It picked up the nickname "Book Set" because it was the set "in the book." Al Tracy however when he split off, continued to call it by it's proper name thus the confusion. The two books that Mr. Parker had published in 1961 and 63 were distinctive in color, and were often simply identified by their exterior jacket color. "Kenpo-Karate" was known as the "Blue Book," and "Secrets" was known as the "Orange Book." So you see to say the "Book Set," to identify that particular form wasn't much of a leap.

Speaking of "Book Set" and "Tiger & Crane," I just looked at Chuck Sullivan beginning the movements of Tiger & Crane on film. (no cracks) Yes that's right, film. I had some film I hadn't labeled and I had to dig up the old 16mm projector to see what the film was. I watched He and Parker peforming all of the precursor techniques to today's commercial system, and they actually performed the Book Set. Interesting viewing and appropriately timed to this thread.


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## Flying Crane

The Tiger/Crane set is originally from the Hung Gar, Southern Chinese system, and is probably the most famous form from that style, and is one of the more famous forms in all of Chinese martial arts.  It was created by Wong Fei-Hung, a Hung Gar master who lived some time in the 1800s, I believe.  Wong Fei-Hung has become a Chinese Folk Hero, and many movies have been made about him.  Jackie Chan played Wong Fei-Hung in Drunken Master II, and Jet Li played him in the Once Upon A Time in China movies.

According to the Tracys, it was one of them (not Al, but one of the other two, James or Will) who learned the form from someone in San Francisco's Chinatown, sometime in the 1950s or early 1960s.  Apparently Kenpo did not have any katas at the time, and Ed Parker wanted the system to have some, so he asked the Tracy brother to go and learn some Chinese forms and bring them back to be incorporated into kenpo.  While James Wing Woo had a large role in developing the Kenpo Katas, at least thru Long 4, I do not believe it was he who taught Tiger/Crane to the Tracys.

The Tracy lineage still keeps this form as part of the curriculum, but I believe much of the original movement quality has been lost, and the form is not particularly well done.  If you are interested in learning this form, it would probably be best if you learned it from a skilled Hung Gar practitioner.  There are instructional videos on the market that teach the form, but there are very specific qualitites in the movements that cannot be conveyed through video.

Also, there are many versions of the form, as it has been altered by subsequent generations and lineages of Hung Gar, as well as borrowed by people from other systems.  While many of the versions are very good, just understand that it may not look completely identical, depending on who is doing it, or from whom you learn it.


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> The Tiger/Crane set is originally from the Hung Gar, Southern Chinese system, and is probably the most famous form from that style, and is one of the more famous forms in all of Chinese martial arts.  It was created by Wong Fei-Hung, a Hung Gar master who lived some time in the 1800s, I believe.  Wong Fei-Hung has become a Chinese Folk Hero, and many movies have been made about him.  Jackie Chan played Wong Fei-Hung in Drunken Master II, and Jet Li played him in the Once Upon A Time in China movies.
> 
> According to the Tracys, it was one of them (not Al, but one of the other two, James or Will) who learned the form from someone in San Francisco's Chinatown, sometime in the 1950s or early 1960s.  Apparently Kenpo did not have any katas at the time, and Ed Parker wanted the system to have some, so he asked the Tracy brother to go and learn some Chinese forms and bring them back to be incorporated into kenpo.  While James Wing Woo had a large role in developing the Kenpo Katas, at least thru Long 4, I do not believe it was he who taught Tiger/Crane to the Tracys.
> 
> The Tracy lineage still keeps this form as part of the curriculum, but I believe much of the original movement quality has been lost, and the form is not particularly well done.  If you are interested in learning this form, it would probably be best if you learned it from a skilled Hung Gar practitioner.  There are instructional videos on the market that teach the form, but there are very specific qualitites in the movements that cannot be conveyed through video.
> 
> Also, there are many versions of the form, as it has been altered by subsequent generations and lineages of Hung Gar, as well as borrowed by people from other systems.  While many of the versions are very good, just understand that it may not look completely identical, depending on who is doing it, or from whom you learn it.


While I agree with the bulk of your post sir, it was not the Tracy's that brought this form to Kenpo. Tiger and the Crane was a central form at Wah Que Kwoon where Ed Parker studied with Ark Wong in the Los Angeles Chinatown along with a young Jimmy Woo, who subsequently began teaching for Ed Parker in Parker's own school where the Tracy's ultimately became students. I saw Jimmy Woo and Parker teach this form, and that makes it highly unlikely that The Tracy's had learned this form elsewhere and then somehow taught it to Jimmy Woo and Ed Parker who already knew and taught several variations.

Additionally, within a year of establishing himself Parker had already incorporated what was ultimately called "Star Block," "Short One," and "Short Two" as Kenpo's first forms along with the borrowed and modified "Tiger and Crane," and "Two Man Set."


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## Flying Crane

HI Doc,

If you were there and know this to be a fact, then I cannot argue with you.  The story I have relayed is what the Tracy's claim.  I do not know the Tracy's personally, and do not belong to their organization, but my kenpo training is from their lineage.  Their claims have been posted in a series of articles by Will Tracy, on the following website:   http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/articles.htm  I am only relaying what I have read.  With the passing of Mr. Parker, I suspect a lot of people may make unverifiable claims, or tell only the part of the truth that they like best.  I am not accusing either you, or the Tracys of this, simply making an observation.

Michael


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> HI Doc,
> 
> If you were there and know this to be a fact, then I cannot argue with you.  The story I have relayed is what the Tracy's claim.  I do not know the Tracy's personally, and do not belong to their organization, but my kenpo training is from their lineage.  Their claims have been posted in a series of articles by Will Tracy, on the following website:   http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/articles.htm  I am only relaying what I have read.  With the passing of Mr. Parker, I suspect a lot of people may make unverifiable claims, or tell only the part of the truth that they like best.  I am not accusing either you, or the Tracys of this, simply making an observation.
> 
> Michael


I know you meant no harm. Many take what the Tracy's have done in their revisionist history as gospel. Unfortunately a great deal of it is aimed at discrediting Ed Parker, particularly after they publicly shifted their lineage to Mitose, and literally dropped Ed Parker from their lineage. Considering the great business success of the Tracy brothers, which in many ways inspired Parker to expand his "business" of kenpo, it appears to me wholly unneccessary. With or without Ed Parker, Al has built an impressive empire.
I haven't see AL in years even though I spoke with him a few years ago. I haven't seen any of the other brothers since Superior Court in the 90's in Los Angeles on another criminal issue. There are other ex-Tracy people around who can give you more insight into their more recent actions. Knowing all of them personally, I remain cordial and curious and only speak on issues that need factual clarifications.


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## Flying Crane

Doc said:
			
		

> I know you meant no harm. Many take what the Tracy's have done in their revisionist history as gospel. Unfortunately a great deal of it is aimed at discrediting Ed Parker, particularly after they publicly shifted their lineage to Mitose, and literally dropped Ed Parker from their lineage. Considering the great business success of the Tracy brothers, which in many ways inspired Parker to expand his "business" of kenpo, it appears to me wholly unneccessary. With or without Ed Parker, Al has built an impressive empire.
> I haven't see AL in years even though I spoke with him a few years ago. I haven't seen any of the other brothers since Superior Court in the 90's in Los Angeles on another criminal issue. There are other ex-Tracy people around who can give you more insight into their more recent actions. Knowing all of them personally, I remain cordial and curious and only speak on issues that need factual clarifications.


right-on.  I'd be curious to know what happened in Superior Court (heh heh)

michael


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> right-on.  I'd be curious to know what happened in Superior Court (heh heh)
> 
> michael


Search MT archives. It's all been discussed before on the best and most civil MA forum in the universe.


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## Seabrook

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I do not know the Tracy's personally, and do not belong to their organization, but my kenpo training is from their lineage. Their claims have been posted in a series of articles by Will Tracy, on the following website: http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/articles.htm
> Michael


A lot of that stuff is, ah, let's just say, baloney.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Flying Crane

Seabrook said:
			
		

> A lot of that stuff is, ah, let's just say, baloney.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


Hi Jamie,

Well, that may well be so, like I stated earlier, I think since the passing of Mr. Parker, a lot of people find it easier to make unverifiable claims, or tell only a portion of the truth that may distort the true picture.  I am in no position to judge either way.  Whether or not the stuff in these documents is baloney is something that I cannot judge, but the Tracys pass the same judgement over much of what Mr. Parker's students in American Kenpo believe.  I am not trying to start an argument, or a war, I am just stating that I have seen the same judgement cast by both sides.  For someone like myself, I am interested in hearing both sides.  The Tracy's position is that they were there at the time, they were involved in the events that took place, and they witnessed these events as they unfolded.  OK, that makes them a Primary source in this history.  

If you have information to back up your assertion that much of this is baloney, I would love to hear it.  Were you there, or do you have connections to people who were there and are also a Primary source?  If this is baloney, please debunk it with solid information.  I apologize if this topic has been already covered in the forum, but I just discovered the forum a couple weeks ago, and I just began posting yesterday.  If it has, please direct me to the thread.

Much of the politics that happen in the martial arts can get really ugly.  It is especially sad when a student splits from his/her instructor on bad terms.  A relationship that was based on trust and respect has been shattered, and people on both sides don't always act in a noble fashion.  

Even outside the politics, people who are otherwise good, generous and intelligent can sometimes make poor judgements and act in a petty manner.  The problem is that often, this is all that people (or at least certain people) can remember.  It takes a thousand acts to build a reputation, but only one to destroy it.  

Even if the information contained in the Tracy's articles is 10%, or 40%, or 75%, or 100% true, it doesn't detract from the good work that Mr. Parker did, and the legacy that he has left behind.  We can, I think, all accept the fact that Mr. Parker was a person, not a god, and therefor subject to making mistakes, like all the rest of us.  Ok, that's life, but it doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't disgrace his memory to recognize this.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions.  I have NO desire to start an argument, or degrade Mr. Parker, or American Kenpo.  I am still searching in my own path within kenpo and other martial arts, and this is a topic that simply came up.  I am something of a history buff, and would love to hear all points of view on this or any topic, but would like to know how people know what they know, and how they can back up their claims.  

thank you
michael


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## kenpoworks

Flying Crane aka Michael,
Irrespective of the topic, I think your last post was extremely polite, well put together and deserves a credible answer, it seems as though you want answers, not argument, facts not fiction, whether you will get them from this particular can of worms is another thing.
The Kenpo faction fighting comes around every now and then, honestly its better left to the combatants, its a restrictive sludge that won't really help you with your progress.
I would like to see a few bridges built on this particular subject and who knows the "Flying Crane" may get the construction job!
Cheers Rich


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## Flying Crane

Perhaps this discussion is getting a bit off-topic, which was originally about the Tiger/Crane form.  The Tracy's claim they introduced it into Kenpo, after one of them learned it in San Francisco's Chinatown.  Doc believes Mr. Parker learned it from Ark Wong in Los Angeles Chinatown.  I personally did not know that Mr. Parker trained with Ark Wong, nor did I realize that Ark Wong was a Hung Gar person.  If true, then I learned something new!

I have also heard the story that William Chow's father was a Hung Gar man, and he taught the form to William, who taught it to Mr. Parker.  I have my doubts about that story, as it seems that if Hung Gar was a large part of Mr. Chow's training, then most or all of the system would have found its way into kenpo, and not just one form.  In addition, the Tracys claim this story has no truth.

I doubt if either the Tracys, or Doc, or anyone else who believes they know the answer to how the form was introduced into kenpo is going to feel inclined to change their story just because someone else makes a different claim.  In light of this, there may always be a shadow of doubt over what really happened.  After thinking about it tho, I feel that it doesn't really matter.  What is important to know is that the form originally came from the Hung Gar system, and was borrowed by Kenpo in the late 50s or early 60s.  The Tracys and some of the others who were around in the early days kept the form, but Mr. Parker ultimately dropped it from American Kenpo.  The details about how it all happened perhaps are just not that important.

As for the documents written by Will Tracy, they are certainly inflammatory and do not paint a pretty picture of Mr. Parker.  This, however, is not the proper thread to continue discussion on how much, or how little, truth they contain.  Perhaps a new thread could be started, in which those who have any real, first-hand knowledge of what went on in the early days can respectfully give their evidence.     I am afraid it could easily turn into a bloodbath, however, so I hesitate to start that thread.   I'll think about it a bit...

To Kenpoworks:  thank you for your comments.  I appreciate it very much.

Peace,
Michael


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Doc believes Mr. Parker learned it from Ark Wong in Los Angeles Chinatown.  I personally did not know that Mr. Parker trained with Ark Wong, nor did I realize that Ark Wong was a Hung Gar person.  If true, then I learned something new!


Mr. Parker trained with Ark Wong as well as with Lau Bun briefly in northern California, and others. Danny Inosanto trained with Ark Wong before coming to Parker, and so did Jimmy Woo before they both moved on. In those days, and especially among the Chinese, it was never about "style" only methodologies. It was not unusual for what we call today a "Hung Gar stylists" to be well versed in various methodologies. Ark Wong if pressed identified himself as "Five Animal" but was the consumate Chinese Master that all sought to improve their knowledge and skills regardless of personal preferences. He taught elements of Hung Gar, ChoyLifut. Splashing Hands, Taijiquan, Chin na,etc. He also taught herbal medicine and massage, and acupuncture, etc


> I have also heard the story that William Chow's father was a Hung Gar man, and he taught the form to William, who taught it to Mr. Parker.  I have my doubts about that story, as it seems that if Hung Gar was a large part of Mr. Chow's training, then most or all of the system would have found its way into kenpo, and not just one form.  In addition, the Tracys claim this story has no truth.


Although WIlliam Chow did in fact know Chinese Forms, he did not in general teach them. I have no first hand knowledge of where he learned them but Mr. Parker spoke of Chow performing Chinese Forms and Sets for his students to "see," but his first love was "mixing it up" on the floor doing techniques and grappling. The source of Mr. Chow's Chinese Forms is an on going discussion.


> In light of this, there may always be a shadow of doubt over what really happened.  After thinking about it tho, I feel that it doesn't really matter.  What is important to know is that the form originally came from the Hung Gar system, and was borrowed by Kenpo in the late 50s or early 60s.


Well said.


> The Tracys and some of the others who were around in the early days kept the form, but Mr. Parker ultimately dropped it from American Kenpo.  The details about how it all happened perhaps are just not that important.


Well the details actually are important and help to frame the context of what some study, as well as highlight the fact that there is more than one interpretation of Kenpo, and many works of Mr. Parker that are not related to the very mainstream motion based Kenpo most are familiar with. The Chinese elements explained and performed in a Western American context are evident in other Parker works.


> As for the documents written by Will Tracy, they are certainly inflammatory and do not paint a pretty picture of Mr. Parker.


As his best friend, (attested to by his son) I refute a great deal of what the Tracy's have said in some form. There has also been some strain between themselves and Al has distanced himself from Will on some of these issues. My personal gripe surrounds the fact that the Tracy's had left Mr. Parker over a couple of decades before he passed. Why publish such things after he is dead? There was plenty of time and opportunity to do so while Mr. Parker was alive and could confront the accusations personally.


> This, however, is not the proper thread to continue discussion on how much, or how little, truth they contain.  Perhaps a new thread could be started, in which those who have any real, first-hand knowledge of what went on in the early days can respectfully give their evidence.     I am afraid it could easily turn into a bloodbath, however, so I hesitate to start that thread.   I'll think about it a bit...


Agreed sir, but that has already occurred here and is probably why there is so little response. Search the MT archives and you'll find plenty of reading on the subject, (and a few words from me on the topic as well) 
Thank you sir for your courtesy and welcome to MartialTalk.


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## Flying Crane

Thank you sir for your courtesy and welcome to MartialTalk.[/QUOTE] 

Thank you, Doc, i am happy to be aboard. And thank your for your courtesy and for your responses. I realized that a comment that I had made simply in the context of discussion suddenly had a great potential to go spinning out in a direction that I did not intend. I didn't want to find myself in the middle of a battle that I hadn't looked for, and that I, quite frankly, had no interest or motivation in winning.

As a Kenpo practitioner, I do not belong to any organizations or schools. I learned kenpo starting about 21 years ago when I was thirteen years old, but have focused my efforts in more recent years on training in other arts. But I find that I always return to kenpo, as it is my root in the martial arts. I just quietly train in my arts, and am often un-aware of who else is out there in the world. If you were a close personal friend of Mr. Parker, I would like to extend a sincere apology if anything i have written has come across as abraisive or insensitive to him or his art. 

All the best,

Michael Schaefer
aka Flying Crane


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Thank you sir for your courtesy and welcome to MartialTalk.
> 
> Thank you, Doc, i am happy to be aboard. And thank your for your courtesy and for your responses. I realized that a comment that I had made simply in the context of discussion suddenly had a great potential to go spinning out in a direction that I did not intend. I didn't want to find myself in the middle of a battle that I hadn't looked for, and that I, quite frankly, had no interest or motivation in winning.
> 
> As a Kenpo practitioner, I do not belong to any organizations or schools. I learned kenpo starting about 21 years ago when I was thirteen years old, but have focused my efforts in more recent years on training in other arts. But I find that I always return to kenpo, as it is my root in the martial arts. I just quietly train in my arts, and am often un-aware of who else is out there in the world. If you were a close personal friend of Mr. Parker, I would like to extend a sincere apology if anything i have written has come across as abraisive or insensitive to him or his art.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Michael Schaefer
> aka Flying Crane


Thank you Mr. Schaefer but no apologies are neccessary. I always assume a persons intent and interest are honest until they give me reasons to think otherwise. I appreciate what you have to say, and the way you say it. I look forward to many discussions on various topics. MartialTalk is the place for civil arguments on all subjects pertaining to the arts.

I see you have been involved in Capoiera. I have a good friend, Dennis Newsome also in the art. He and I have recently done some camps together. Good guy.

Anyway once again, welcome aboard.


----------



## Flying Crane

Doc said:
			
		

> I see you have been involved in Capoiera. I have a good friend, Dennis Newsome also in the art. He and I have recently done some camps together. Good guy.
> 
> Anyway once again, welcome aboard.


I don't know Mr. Newsome.  Do you happen to know with whom he trained?  I was active in Capoeira for 7 or 8 years, starting at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, and then moving to San Francisco and training with the ABADA group here.  As I drifted more into the Chinese arts my Capoeira training tapered off, but, like Kenpo, I think it will always be a part of me because it was a very powerful experience.  I know I am not as polished as I once was, but I can still play a pretty good game in the roda.


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## kenpoworks

Iwas told (from a reliable source) that when Capoeira was show cased at The IKC Long Beach it was ridiculed by a Kenpo Black Belt as just a dance routine, aparently Mr. Parker told this individual that , "that dance routine could put you on your ***"....many look ,but few see!
Rich


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## Doc

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I don't know Mr. Newsome.  Do you happen to know with whom he trained?  I was active in Capoeira for 7 or 8 years, starting at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, and then moving to San Francisco and training with the ABADA group here.  As I drifted more into the Chinese arts my Capoeira training tapered off, but, like Kenpo, I think it will always be a part of me because it was a very powerful experience.  I know I am not as polished as I once was, but I can still play a pretty good game in the roda.


Within the circle he's pretty well known, based out of San Diego and learned alot from his Father George. Dennis is probably best known to the general public for his work as the technical advisor on the Lethal Weapon film.


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## Flying Crane

Doc said:
			
		

> Within the circle he's pretty well known, based out of San Diego and learned alot from his Father George. Dennis is probably best known to the general public for his work as the technical advisor on the Lethal Weapon film.


Are they Brazilian?  Do you know if they trained in Brazil or the US?  There are MANY different groups throughout Brazil, but at the time of the filming of the Lethal Weapon film (I am assuming you mean the first one, back in the 1980s), there would have been few in the US.  There were a couple teachers here in the San Francisco Bay area, and a couple in New York, and i believe that is about it.


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## Flying Crane

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Iwas told (from a reliable source) that when Capoeira was show cased at The IKC Long Beach it was ridiculed by a Kenpo Black Belt as just a dance routine, aparently Mr. Parker told this individual that , "that dance routine could put you on your ***"....many look ,but few see!
> Rich


Yes, Capoeira is very very different from what most people think of as a martial art.  Many people tend to focus on the "dance" aspect of the art, and can't see past that, but the dance and playfulness were used to disguise the fight, since the art was developed by Africans in Brazil during slavery times.  I know many Capoeiristas who I would NEVER want to fight.


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## Seabrook

"Flying Crane" - you have a very humble attitude and I apologize if I came across as being too bold. 

Mr. Chapel (Doc) is someone that I, too, need to ask for questions where my knowledge is deficient. It's hard to find someone as knowledgeable as Doc, and yet that is so willing to share that information with anyone who asks.

Good luck in your Kenpo journey, and, welcome to MartialTalk. 

Jamie Seabrook

www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Flying Crane

Seabrook said:
			
		

> "Flying Crane" - you have a very humble attitude and I apologize if I came across as being too bold.
> 
> Mr. Chapel (Doc) is someone that I, too, need to ask for questions where my knowledge is deficient. It's hard to find someone as knowledgeable as Doc, and yet that is so willing to share that information with anyone who asks.
> 
> Good luck in your Kenpo journey, and, welcome to MartialTalk.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> 
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


Thanks Jamie,  I appreciate it.  I am happy to be here, and have been getting a kick out of poking around in all the threads.  Also interesting to connect with some other Kenpo people in the world.  I've been a bit isolated from the Kenpo community at large for most of my martial career, so it's been a bit of an eye-opener as well.  Cheers!

all the best, 
Michael


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## Doc

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Iwas told (from a reliable source) that when Capoeira was show cased at The IKC Long Beach it was ridiculed by a Kenpo Black Belt as just a dance routine, aparently Mr. Parker told this individual that , "that dance routine could put you on your ***"....many look ,but few see!
> Rich


Yeah I remember that. They did a really good demo "back in the day." Although I was not party to the conversation you speak of, Mr. Parker definitely said, "If you don't know what you're up against, you could definitely get hurt." It was a part of his "examine before you condemn" lecture to constantly remind students to experience something before you dismiss its effectiveness.


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## tigdra

james Ibrao has a version that is almost identical to the hung gar original


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## kenpoworks

tigdra said:
			
		

> james Ibrao has a version that is almost identical to the hung gar original


How do you know?...with respect.
Rich


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## tigdra

Rich when I was retyping the notes for my school, I eventually got to tiger and crane set. Intrigued by its history and how it came about, but more importantly how it had changed from the Wong Fei Hung version. I began to contact different sources of hung gar as well as watch videos of the set. Both the information that I received from a friend which taught hung gar as well as the video I received proved to be pretty identical. 
Aside from the video that I had I also received a James Ibrao video of the Hung Gar Tiger and Crane Set. Both the hung gar information and James Ibrao version of the form are almost identical.


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## masherdong

> james Ibrao has a version that is almost identical to the hung gar original



It is on the last DVD if you have thebelt series.


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## kenpoworks

TIGDRA,
thank you, for your informative reply, I hope the way that I phrased my query was not too abrupt.
With Respect 
Rich :asian:


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## tigdra

Not at all kenpoworks

Masherdog you are correct it is the last video in thebelt series.


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## clfsean

Is there a video of this anywhere out on the net?


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## clfsean

TTT ... anybody??


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## Flying Crane

Not that I'm aware of.  I know the video is available on his website, for sale...


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## clfsean

Nah... not interested in buying it. I just wanna see the Kenpo version of it.


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## Flying Crane

ah, the kenpo version.  I guess I'm not sure exactly which version James Ibrao has, even tho he was one of Parker's earliest students.  His fu/hok might be from a different source.

I used to have an old tape of a guy from Tracys doing it.  It was actually god-awful.  Just really really bad, not sure how it got screwed up so much.  I finally dumped the tape 'cause it was just getting old and deteriorating and making it harder and harder to watch.

Tracys website offers tapes of all the material, and fu/hok is in there.  A copy of this is what I actually had.  I doubt if it is anywhere on the internet for free, tho.  As a non-kenpo guy with no vested interest in the system other than curiosity, I couldn't recomment that you pay money for it.  That's kind of how Al Tracy gets rich, I guess...


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## tigdra

If you want to get a kenpo version of tiger and crane I would only suggest such a buy if and only if your interest is geared toward aesthetic goals. 
If you want to get a more in depth understanding of the tiger and crane set I suggest you buy a hung gar version of the tape or an in depth manual of the form
in conjunction with a hung gar tape or James Ibrao fu hok tape. If you have read up on the understanding and reasoning that Wong Fei Hong altered the original 
form, then the kenpo version of this form will truly disappoint you; a lot of the original techniques are not taught and those which are taught have been altered and 
have a different application than once intended. I have learned *tiger and crane/ fu hok *at least four different ways and my least favorite is the kenpo version. 
I will be happy to share or trade any information or answer any questions that may help on this subject. I am in no way an expert or grandmaster or any style I only offer information.


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## Gufbal1982

RichK said:


> Does anyone have or know where I can get a video of the Tiger/Crane set? Or has anyone made a video of themselves doing it.


 

You can get GrandMaster Tak Wah Eng on youtube.com doing it.  Here's the link:






I would honestly get this version over a kempo person's version.  it's more traditional because he's directly linked to wong fei hong.


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## Gufbal1982

The Tiger/Crane is not "the" hung gar form, it's Gun Gee Fuk Fu.  Tiger/Crane set is a shortened version of that form.


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## searcher

You can go to www.WLE.com and get it.   The form is under the Hung Gar video section.   


Here is some info on the T/C form.


FU HOK SEUNG YING KUEN
Tiger & Crane double shape fist

Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen - Tiger and Crane double shape fist is the most famous set of Hung kuen. In fact so famous that some people reffer to Hung Gar as the Tiger and Crane Style. There are many different stories about how this form was created. Its said that the form was created by Hung Hei Guan who combined the soft and fluid techniques of the crane which he learned from his wife with the straightforward and powerful tiger movements of siu lum temple. 

This form was later modified by the great master Wong Fei Hung one of the most famous and well known masters of hung gar to date whos life has been imortalized by hundreds of movies, publications, tv shows etc. Wong Fei Hung using his excellent knowledge and experience re-choreographed and brodaen the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen as we know it today. Many importan aspects and principles were further developed and added in, such as the unique internal training handed down by the Tid Kiu Sam, 10 special hands(sup duk sao- sup jeut sao) also known as 10 killing hands, theory of yin-yang, 5 elements, 7 stars etc. The ten special hands were the ten most favouired techniques/principles of Wong Fei Hung which he used in many challanges to defeat his opponents.

The Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen like all the other forms of the system incorparates and follows the philosophy and principles of Yin Yang. The form cobines the fierce, powerfull movements of the tiger which emphasis gong ging (hard power) with the fluid, evasive movements of the crane which requires yau ging (soft power). The crane movements also develop bing ging (whiping power).


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## Flying Crane

Gufbal1982 said:


> You can get GrandMaster Tak Wah Eng on youtube.com doing it. Here's the link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would honestly get this version over a kempo person's version. it's more traditional because he's directly linked to wong fei hong.


 

Interesting video clip.  It's vairly different from other versions of the Tiger/Crane I have seen, and I'm not talking about the kenpo versions either.  thanks for pointing it out.


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## Flying Crane

Gufbal1982 said:


> The Tiger/Crane is not "the" hung gar form, it's Gun Gee Fuk Fu. Tiger/Crane set is a shortened version of that form.


 
Is not the Gun Gee Fuk Fu the Taming the Tiger set?  It was my understanding that set is a separate Hung Gar set, distinct from Tiger/Crane.


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## HG1

The four core pillar hand sets of Hung-Ga are:
-Subduing the tiger in an "I" pattern 
-Tiger crane double form 
-5 animals (some Hung-Ga lineages call it 5 elements/5 animals)
-Iron Wire 

There are some repeating movements between them but trust me -the word _*short*_ does not apply to any of these particular forms.

Sifu Tak Wah Eng style is Fu Jow not Hung-Ga. So his lineage wouldn't have connection to Wong Fei-Hung. This might explain the difference in his Tiger Crane pattern from Traditional Hung-Ga.


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## Gufbal1982

HG1 said:


> The four core pillar hand sets of Hung-Ga are:
> -Subduing the tiger in an "I" pattern
> -Tiger crane double form
> -5 animals (some Hung-Ga lineages call it 5 elements/5 animals)
> -Iron Wire
> 
> There are some repeating movements between them but trust me -the word _*short*_ does not apply to any of these particular forms.
> 
> Sifu Tak Wah Eng style is Fu Jow not Hung-Ga. So his lineage wouldn't have connection to Wong Fei-Hung. This might explain the difference in his Tiger Crane pattern from Traditional Hung-Ga.


 
Sifu Tak Wah Eng does teach Hung Ga as well as Fu Jow and he's created his own style now.  He does teach the Hung Ga form the Tiger/Crane Set as well as Gun Gee Fuk Fu.


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## HG1

Gufbal1982 said:


> Sifu Tak Wah Eng does teach Hung Ga as well as Fu Jow and he's created his own style now. He does teach the Hung Ga form the Tiger/Crane Set as well as Gun Gee Fuk Fu.


 

These are very popular hand sets, many schools have a version of them in their curriculum. This doesn't make them a Traditional Hung-Ga school. Go check out:
www.takwahfederation.com
www.takwahkungfu.com
You will only see references to Southern Shaolin - not Hung-Ga &/or Wong Fei Hung.

This takes nothing away from the high level skill of Sifu Tak Wah Eng, he's a very talented kung fu instructor out of NYC Chinatown.


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## shaolin ninja 4

HG1 said:


> These are very popular hand sets, many schools have a version of them in their curriculum. This doesn't make them a Traditional Hung-Ga school. Go check out:
> www.takwahfederation.com
> www.takwahkungfu.com
> You will only see references to Southern Shaolin - not Hung-Ga &/or Wong Fei Hung.
> 
> This takes nothing away from the high level skill of Sifu Tak Wah Eng, he's a very talented kung fu instructor out of NYC Chinatown.


 
He's the Grandmaster who introduced Mattera and Damasco to the Abbott of the shaolin temple.

An at one time was damascos teacher.   He cut ties with damasco like cerio did to mattera. I wonder why?


----------



## Gufbal1982

HG1 said:


> These are very popular hand sets, many schools have a version of them in their curriculum. This doesn't make them a Traditional Hung-Ga school. Go check out:
> www.takwahfederation.com
> www.takwahkungfu.com
> You will only see references to Southern Shaolin - not Hung-Ga &/or Wong Fei Hung.
> 
> This takes nothing away from the high level skill of Sifu Tak Wah Eng, he's a very talented kung fu instructor out of NYC Chinatown.


 

That's because the Hung-Ga is part of his past experiences.  He's working on a lot of Wu-shu now and adding that into his system.


----------



## HG1

Gufbal1982 said:


> That's because the Hung-Ga is part of his past experiences. He's working on a lot of Wu-shu now and adding that into his system.


The requirements for Traditional Hung-Ga is a lot more than learning a couple of forms before moving on to something else. Your original statement about a connection to Wong Fei Hung lineage is misleading. Sifu Tak Wah Eng has excellent kung fu skill but is not a Hung-Ga Sifu.

Please go take a better look at the web pages again.
www.takwahfederation.com
www.takwahkungfu.com

Also remember Hung-Ga practitioners are proud of their style & wouldn't call it anything but that. Especially for the amount of hard work put into meeting the demands of the style.


----------



## Gufbal1982

HG1 said:


> The requirements for Traditional Hung-Ga is a lot more than learning a couple of forms before moving on to something else. Your original statement about a connection to Wong Fei Hung lineage is misleading. Sifu Tak Wah Eng has excellent kung fu skill but is not a Hung-Ga Sifu.
> 
> Please go take a better look at the web pages again.
> www.takwahfederation.com
> www.takwahkungfu.com
> 
> Also remember Hung-Ga practitioners are proud of their style & wouldn't call it anything but that. Especially for the amount of hard work put into meeting the demands of the style.


 

First things first, the takwahfederation.com page is out of date.  The last seminar he has on there was from 2004 and I know he's done more since then.  Anways...  

If you look on a different thread on this forum, you will see from an instructor from GrandMaster Wai Hong that you have to study Hung-Ga in order to study Fu Jow Pai (I found it by searching for Iron Palm Training).  Wai Hong used to teach Hung-Ga as part of his curriculum from what I understand and that's where Sifu Tak Wah Eng learned Hung-Ga.  

If you look at the websites, it doesn't say anything about the training he received from GrandMaster Wai Hong which include Fu Jow Pai and Iron Palm. Here's the link to Wai Hong's page that says he studied Hung-Ga

http://www.fujowpai.com/waihongbio.htm

He learned that from GrandMaster Wong Moon Toy.  Here's the link to that page:

http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxfujowpai.htm

He was taught by his uncle GrandMaster Wong Bil Hong who learned from Wong Fei Hung.  Here's the Link to that page:

http://members.fortunecity.com/fujowpai/


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## Gufbal1982

HG1 said:


> The requirements for Traditional Hung-Ga is a lot more than learning a couple of forms before moving on to something else. Your original statement about a connection to Wong Fei Hung lineage is misleading. Sifu Tak Wah Eng has excellent kung fu skill but is not a Hung-Ga Sifu.
> 
> Please go take a better look at the web pages again.
> www.takwahfederation.com
> www.takwahkungfu.com
> 
> Also remember Hung-Ga practitioners are proud of their style & wouldn't call it anything but that. Especially for the amount of hard work put into meeting the demands of the style.


 

First things first, the takwahfederation.com page is out of date.  The last seminar he has on there was from 2004 and I know he's done more since then.  Also, in my posts, did you see me say anywhere that he was a Hung Ga sifu?  I didn't say that.  I said he studied Hung Ga and is directly linked to Wong Fei Hong's lineage.  Anways, here is my proof.  

If you look on a different thread on this forum, you will see from an instructor from GrandMaster Wai Hong that you have to study Hung-Ga in order to study Fu Jow Pai (I found it by searching for Iron Palm Training).  Wai Hong used to teach Hung-Ga as part of his curriculum from what I understand and that's where Sifu Tak Wah Eng learned Hung-Ga.  

If you look at the websites, it doesn't say anything about the training he received from GrandMaster Wai Hong which include Fu Jow Pai and Iron Palm. Here's the link to Wai Hong's page that says he studied Hung-Ga

http://www.fujowpai.com/waihongbio.htm

He learned that from GrandMaster Wong Moon Toy.  Here's the link to that page:

http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxfujowpai.htm

He was taught by his uncle GrandMaster Wong Bil Hong who learned from Wong Fei Hung.  Here's the Link to that page:

http://members.fortunecity.com/fujowpai/

so, um, please tell me, how is Hung Ga isn't in Master Tak's lineage?


----------



## Gufbal1982

sorry about the double post!  my internet went nuts and I didn't think it posted the first time.


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## MeatWad2

wow...someone did lots of research into this answer.  can we say burn?


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## HG1

_"The Tiger/Crane is not "the" hung gar form, it's Gun Gee Fuk Fu. Tiger/Crane set is a shortened version of that form." _

Your statement clearly demonstrates a lack of the most *basic *knowledge of Hung-Ga. 

Subduing the tiger (gung ji fook fu) is the first form learned, which sets the foundation. Tiger Crane double form (fu hok seung ying kuen) is the most popular form & the core of style. They are separate long forms, each with distinct training goals. 

Once again your statements concerning Hung-Ga are inaccurate & misleading. 



Gufbal1982 said:


> First things first, the takwahfederation.com page is out of date. The last seminar he has on there was from 2004 and I know he's done more since then.


The topic of our debate would not be affected by updating the web site or not. Seminar dates are irrelevant. 



Gufbal1982 said:


> Also, in my posts, did you see me say anywhere that he was a Hung Ga sifu?


That's my point, you can't teach the complete Hung-Ga style unless you are a Hung-Ga sifu. 


Gufbal1982 said:


> If you look on a different thread on this forum, you will see from an instructor from GrandMaster Wai Hong that you have to study Hung-Ga in order to study Fu Jow Pai (I found it by searching for Iron Palm Training). Wai Hong used to teach Hung-Ga as part of his curriculum from what I understand and that's where Sifu Tak Wah Eng learned Hung-Ga.


My debate is with you & not these other Fu Jow Pai Sifu. There is a life times worth of study in Hung-Ga, there just isn't that much time to acquire all of the styles knowledge & then go learn another. I'm sure certain aspects of Hung-Ga are part of the Fu Jow Pai but not the entire system. Again, my debate is with your inaccurate statements about Hung-Ga.


----------



## Gufbal1982

HG1 said:


> _"The Tiger/Crane is not "the" hung gar form, it's Gun Gee Fuk Fu. Tiger/Crane set is a shortened version of that form." _
> 
> Your statement clearly demonstrates a lack of the most *basic *knowledge of Hung-Ga.
> 
> Subduing the tiger (gung ji fook fu) is the first form learned, which sets the foundation. Tiger Crane double form (fu hok seung ying kuen) is the most popular form & the core of style. They are separate long forms, each with distinct training goals.
> 
> Once again your statements concerning Hung-Ga are inaccurate & misleading.
> 
> 
> The topic of our debate would not be affected by updating the web site or not. Seminar dates are irrelevant.
> 
> 
> That's my point, you can't teach the complete Hung-Ga style unless you are a Hung-Ga sifu.
> 
> My debate is with you & not these other Fu Jow Pai Sifu. There is a life times worth of study in Hung-Ga, there just isn't that much time to acquire all of the styles knowledge & then go learn another. I'm sure certain aspects of Hung-Ga are part of the Fu Jow Pai but not the entire system. Again, my debate is with your inaccurate statements about Hung-Ga.


 

Ok, first off, you're just being mean and pretty much closing your mind to the opinion of anyone else.  I'm going by what my instructor told me.  He considers Gunji to be "the" hung gar form because it is the first form taught...the foundation.  Do you study any other styles of Martial Arts?  If you don't then let me just tell you that the cream of the material is always in the beginning...there's always something new to be learned from your beginner material even as you advance.

As per your comment on the website, I was merely making a reference to the FACT that not everything is on there.  Once again, you also misquoted me.  I never said he taught the whole system.  I said he has Hung Ga in his system...never ONCE did I say that the whole curriculum was taught.  I didn't ask for you to have a debate with me, a student, as well as with a student of Fu Jow Pai, did I?  I was using that as a basis for proving my argument.  You pretty much challenged me to prove that Sifu Tak Wah Eng has a direct lineage to Wong Fei Hong.  I did the research and that's what I was proving.  

Open your mind to new ideas...it seems a bit closed right now.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Grammar check...I meant to say that I didn't mean for you to have a debate with me, a student, as well as a separate Sifu of Fu Jow Pai.  Sorry.


----------



## HG1

Gufbal1982 said:


> Ok, first off, you're just being mean and pretty much closing your mind to the opinion of anyone else.


I'm sorry if you perceive my responses as mean, it's not my intention. I'm far from being closed minded. I stand by what I know is right - Fu Hok is not a shortened version of Gung Ji. 


Gufbal1982 said:


> I'm going by what my instructor told me. He considers Gunji to be "the" hung gar form because it is the first form taught...the foundation.


I'm going by what I've been taught as well. I'm not going to argue about the different interpretations between schools. I'm satisified with agreeing to disagree. There is probably more similarities between the systems than differences anyway.


Gufbal1982 said:


> Do you study any other styles of Martial Arts? If you don't then let me just tell you that the cream of the material is always in the beginning...there's always something new to be learned from your beginner material even as you advance.


Let me tell you something - Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen is not a shortend version of Gung Ji Fook Fu. No Traditional Hung-Ga practitioner would agree with you on this. 


Gufbal1982 said:


> prove that Sifu Tak Wah Eng has a direct lineage to Wong Fei Hong. I did the research and that's what I was proving.


Yes, I did question the connection to Wong Fei Hung lineage because of your statement. It's that far off the mark. 


Gufbal1982 said:


> Open your mind to new ideas...it seems a bit closed right now.


Disagreeing with you doesn't make me closed minded.


----------



## MJS

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:

_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-


----------



## SK101

Go to ESPY-TV. Pull up Tak Wah Eng videos (Black Tiger Kung-Fu). I believe DVD letter C has the Tiger/Crane form. There are also Tiger/Crane forms available from Hung Gar instructors although I don't know off how where to find them.


----------

