# How would you deal with multiple attackers who are bigger?



## Tony (Mar 2, 2004)

I know there was a thread on dealing with some one bigger and multiple attackers but its a whole new affair when the gang of attackers are much bigger and stronger than you, how would you all fair with such a threat?

It it were me I would run like Linford Christie!


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## OUMoose (Mar 2, 2004)

Running, IMO, should always be the first option.  Especially if there's multiple attackers.  If you can't run and can't talk your way out of it, get in a corner.  Find some way that you can limit the number of people coming at you at the same time.  Not sure what else to say here.


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## Zoran (Mar 2, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> I know there was a thread on dealing with some one bigger and multiple attackers but its a whole new affair when the gang of attackers are much bigger and stronger than you, how would you all fair with such a threat?
> 
> It it were me I would run like Linford Christie!



If I don't have a machine gun, or grenade, I would run. If the option was not available to me, I would keep moving and not stand in one place. Hit vital targets and hope for the best.


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## kenpo12 (Mar 2, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> I know there was a thread on dealing with some one bigger and multiple attackers but its a whole new affair when the gang of attackers are much bigger and stronger than you, how would you all fair with such a threat?
> 
> It it were me I would run like Linford Christie!



Run!  Also, I think mindset of how you are going to deal with them makes a big difference.  What I mean is, you may not be able to beat them so to speak, but if you have for example 3 large attackers and you poke one in the eye, chop one in the throat, and kick one in the knee and run you may have a pretty good chance of getting away.  If you try to stay and fight until all are on the ground out of commision you will likely not win.


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## psi_radar (Mar 2, 2004)

1) Run; if you cannot, see 2-5

2) Let them know quickly you're not a victim, you're going to fight hard and mean--it may not be worth the fight 

3) Take out the perceived leader in the most quick and decisive way possible, "with extreme prejudice"

3) Line 'em up, keep moving, use them against each other

4) Use carried/environmental weapons

5) Make lots of noise if you think it might summon assistance.


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## loki09789 (Mar 2, 2004)

Multiple/larger.... puts a whole reality twist on the importance of fitness and martial arts.  Technique in the aboved mentioned examples were never addressed.  Creativity and self control seem to be the focus, that requires physical fitness.  The more fatigued you become the less mentally sharp you become.


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## kenpo12 (Mar 2, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Multiple/larger.... puts a whole reality twist on the importance of fitness and martial arts.  Technique in the aboved mentioned examples were never addressed.  Creativity and self control seem to be the focus, that requires physical fitness.  The more fatigued you become the less mentally sharp you become.



The most obvious was never addressed either.  Don't let yourself get into that type of a situation in the first place.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 2, 2004)

When faced with multiple larger/stronger opponents...with no chance of a fighting victory...and no chance of escape...

I would tell them I studied Tae Kwon Do so that after they beat me up, they wouldn't think that Kenpo and BJJ are inneffective.


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## loki09789 (Mar 2, 2004)

Speaking of running... escape/evasion training might be more appropriate an idea than flat out running, back to the fitness idea.  Being versed in visual deceptions of camoflauge, planning executing escape routes (throwing things down as obstacles, crawling under,around and through things to slow them down/throw them off your track....

Also,

Has anyone taken/heard of an urban climbing class?  I know of one person who took one in the service, but other than "buildering" enthusiasts frustrated by lack of natural rock access, I don't know anyone who has taken a program.


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## Ender (Mar 2, 2004)

If equally matched, we can offer battle;

if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy;

if quite unequal in every way, we flee from him.

-Sun Tzu


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## Gary Crawford (Mar 2, 2004)

Run And Scream Like A Girl!!!!!!!


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## Tony (Mar 2, 2004)

Ok I have nothing against running as a tactic in order to survive! But lets say these assailants pursue, or you are cornered. A friend of a friend of mine was supposedly attacked by some Bouncers and we all know many of them aren't exactly tiny! I am not being negative about door security because their job is just as hard and hazardous as the Police! I really don't knowthe full details but I cannot believe these so called professionals woule resort to such neandertal behaviour! When in clubs I have felt safe knowing that the Bouncers are aware of trouble and deal with it efficiently!
But I am wise enough not to upset these people! However we can't always choose our attackers like our friends! Sizes vary and we should be aware of that! But everyone feels pain and bigger people are no exception!


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## moving target (Mar 2, 2004)

Unless you are prepared to use a weapon you are gona loose. A team of bouncers isn't just a group of big guys, usualy they will be used to working together. Now I don't know the situation there, but if they were on the job I realy doubt they started the whole thing. The vast majority of fights in a social situation can be avoided simply by talking your way out of it. Hearing what you said and nothing more my emediate reaction would be to say your freind's freind probably didn't do anything to de escalate the situation and most likely agrivated it in some way.

If by chance you are stuck somewhere with a group of fighters who know how to fight, know how to fight as a team, and probably are armed with something. Unless you are an amazing fighter everything's stacked against you. You need a weapon to have any chance of evening out the equation.


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## Kris (Mar 3, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> When faced with multiple larger/stronger opponents...with no chance of a fighting victory...and no chance of escape...
> 
> I would tell them I studied Tae Kwon Do so that after they beat me up, they wouldn't think that Kenpo and BJJ are inneffective.


 Oh i love the planning involved there......LOL


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## Tony (Mar 3, 2004)

Ok its bad enough being faced by bigger and stronger attackers but supposing they have studied some style of Martial Art and have some proficiency! Its now a totally different ball game! Ok you if you did say you studied taekwondo like Old Fat Kenpoist suggested after they have beaten you up, one of them may have studied it too and just laugh at your lack of skills! It might be hard but not impossible if you use your head and i don't mean in the literal sense! It seems apparent to me a stronger person will be inclined regardless of any Martial Arts training to use his strength against a weaker opponent!
I would probably attack the legs and groin as obvious targets! there is no way I can wrestle with someone stronger! Going to the ground is not an option.


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## loki09789 (Mar 3, 2004)

Okay, let's spin this topic around a little:

Since there are endless theoretically real scenarios could be created that would demonstrate how powerless the individual could be how about examining the training to find the aspects that would empower you in a multiple/larger opponent scenario.

What do you do now, in training that would help you deal with larger/multiple opponents.  I know this could be very general in response but so far the discussion has really focused outward on the opponent and not really assessed what internal advantages we may be training/cultivating.

I think I brought up the tactical advantage of faster coordination on the part of the individual SD artist relative to the multiple attackers.  One body one brain, faster action/reaction speed.  The group will be cumbersome and hard to coordinate because it is larger and made up of many minds/bodies that could get in each other's way.  Yes, practiced wolf pack tactics could be used to reduce the cumbersomeness of the group, but in general, groups are harder to coordinate than one body/person.  So, I think the individual, well trained has an advantage of read and reaction speed over the multiple opponents.  Not much or easy to employ, but I still think it is there.

Paul M


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## legend29 (Mar 3, 2004)

Okay here is my take on this. First of all, I don't care if it's one or a hundred my first option is just walk away. If I have to fight, then I control the distance of the lead person until I can't possibly hold out anymore. When their in the process of moving close enough to strike me, thats when I close the gap myself, fast and hard ! I'll destroy the lead persons knee and/or groin in the process. Hopefully this will scare off some of the other attackers, or atleast startle them so I can escape. I feel by taking the closest person out in a such a way that it makes him cry in agony and pain ( mercy is not an option, when your own life is at stake ) that it will at the very least, let your attackers know somebody is going to the hospital with you. Most people who jump someone are cowards and if their unsure of getting you without some damage being done to them, then maybe you have a chance.

I would say something to them like, " you may get me, but one of you is going to the hospital. " This hopefully will make them think twice, and since no one likes to go to the hospital and since they have no idea which one you will focus on they might be a little hesitant. But your first option before any other is to not be put in a situation like that, and your second option is to run, walk or do whatever to keep it from going down to begin with. I have no shame to make someone think I'm scared, no matter if I am or not. It also doesn't matter if there is one or a hundred, untrained or trained, you should always avoid confrontation if at all possible.

  Richie


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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, normally there isn't much time for talk if someone wants to beat you up. If they want my wallet, I'll give it to them. Heck, I'd be like "I'll write you a check, who do I make it out to?"...lol...But I probably would track them down unless they went off in a car. 

Running is the best option with them just wanting to attack you. 
If I couldn't run away, I'd grab a weapon for sure. I mean it's honorable and it's just plain stupid to see if you can be Jet Li. Only in the movies. 

If I didn't have a weapon, I'd use the tactic that I've practiced in 2-on-1 sparring, which we do at my school. always use the person in front of you as a block between you and the other person(s), that way you get to fight just one at a time. Rotate around the person in front of you and fight that person first. Also, if your crowded, remember your elbows and knees. They are nice for close spots. 

And don't hang around unless the person threatens your life in a situation. Say they are still able to come after you. If it's more than one, run no matter once. You get a clearing, run. Now if they have guns. Pray. Also, hope that you have enough adrenaline to move fast enough and also hope their guns malfunction. But that's if they intend on killing you. If they just want your goods, hands up and give it to them. Nothing is worth your life.


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## MisterMike (Mar 3, 2004)

Make a miserable mess out of the first one so as to discourage further attacks.  :jedi1: 

Else, run away  :boing2:


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## KenpoTex (Mar 4, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Make a miserable mess out of the first one so as to discourage further attacks.





			
				legend29 said:
			
		

> I feel by taking the closest person out in a such a way that it makes him cry in agony and pain ( mercy is not an option, when your own life is at stake ) that it will at the very least, let your attackers know somebody is going to the hospital with you.



I would tend to agree with these statements.  If you are facing multiple attackers they are going to be pretty confident that their superior numbers will give them the advantage (it does) so you have to show them that they are going to have to pay to win. 


			
				legend29 said:
			
		

> I would say something to them like, " you may get me, but one of you is going to the hospital."


  I would modify this to "you may get me but one of you is going to be _Dead_!  One thing to consider is that when facing multiple attackers whether they are armed or not; the rules change as to the level of force that you are justified in using.  If it was me, obviously depending on the circumstances, I would be targeting the throat, knees, and eyes in an attempt to inflict the max. amount of pain and damage. Because in that situation you can't afford to be nice (and if I had a weapon I would be using it).  As far as strategy, like some of the others have said, I would try to maneuver so that I would only have to engage one at a time, possibly by getting into a doorway and making them come to you.



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> I think I brought up the tactical advantage of faster coordination on the part of the individual SD artist relative to the multiple attackers. One body one brain, faster action/reaction speed. The group will be cumbersome and hard to coordinate because it is larger and made up of many minds/bodies that could get in each other's way.


  This is a good point.  I don't know how many of you have done any sparring or spontaneous work with multiple attackers but it seems like it's almost as hard to be one of the attackers as it is to be the defender due to the fact that you get in each other's way and the defender is usually throwing/shoving  you into each other.  It's an interesting experiment...worth a try.

Other than that pray that you're never attacked by multiple subjects and if you can...run like hell.


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## Tony (Mar 4, 2004)

I pray that this situation will ever arise in my lifetime! but who knows where my next journey will take me, and the evil that exists out in the world!
I would certainly like to practice sparring with multiple attackers in Kung fu, but this is something we don't do a lot! But I will run if I could!


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## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

My military, kenpo and FMA background and training would help me in these types of situations much like the rest of you are mentioning, in terms of tactics more than technique.  Obviously my strike/block/evasive movement training would come in handy, but the tactical level of training would be the most helpful.  Of course the run thing is the best and first option, but if it is not immediately available:

Angling is part of Kenpo/FMA, as well as maneuver warfare training as opposed to taking a fight head on everytime.  

Taking this Angling concept to tactical application for this scenario, I would keep moving, but at ANGLES that would make the attacker(s) either stack up in front of me or stretch out - either way they could not concentrate their efforts or coordinate multiple attackers to be effective at the same time.  

Like in a team sport, when a zone in their formation collapses I would either take advantage of this to first make an escape, break up an attacker or two, or if nothing else is available just use it as a time killer to catch my breath and regroup for the next wave...

To have any margin of success I would have to really tap into other aspects of my training such as FOCUS/CONCENTRATION, CONTROL, ... you get the idea.  I like some of the other tactics mentioned as well.


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## loki09789 (Mar 4, 2004)

Oh Yeah,

backyard football/baseball come in handy when I am zinging rocks, sticks and anything else I can find at the me too


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## 8253 (Mar 8, 2004)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> 1) Run; if you cannot, see 2-5
> 
> 2) Let them know quickly you're not a victim, you're going to fight hard and mean--it may not be worth the fight
> 
> ...



excellent advice.  I expecially like number 3 %-}


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## psi_radar (Mar 8, 2004)

Yep, both #3's are good (whoops)! I think you're talking about the first one, which is my personal favorite as well. If you take out the leader (who is not always the biggest one) it'll sap the motivation of the rest, since the attack was probably his idea anyway.


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## TonyM. (Mar 8, 2004)

I ran, but not before getting a broken rib, bruised kidney and the bottom of my chin slashed with a switchblade.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 16, 2004)

I have been in this situation, and while concentration and focus definitely matter, they are difficult to muster while getting pounded from multiple directions.  My answer: Brutal chaos.  Screw stances...if you don;t keep moving, they'll all target you at once...they don't wait their turns like in the movies.

Next, start swinging, and keep swinging.  Heck, they're swinging at you...at least swing back and get your licks in before you get drilled. (send them home with a reminder that you showed up).

Most importantly, resolve yourself to recieving injury, and in the face of that knowledge, detertmine to cause some of your own.

4 Guys: Popped #1 in the nose with an overhand right, and broke it...he paused to bleed; at same time, #2 was tackling me from behind. Spun to recieve him in my guard, and threw him in a choke (whacked the back of my head on the asphalt)...missed the carotids, but got the trachea.  #3 comes up and starts kicking me in the head with his combat boots, bloodying nose and mouth, breaking a tooth, and blacking an eye before I can disentangle myself from #2 and get upright (trached him hard first, so he wouldn't follow). #3 is unpleasantly large (they all are, but #3 really stands out). I crash into his advance throwing a flurry of everything I can to anything thats open...only a few face and groin shots connect _well_, before #4 joins at my 5 o'clock.  Fancy moves don't work, and #4 and I tie up in a clinch.  I get in a couple elbows to the head and knees to the thorax that chop him down like a tree, but not before a recovered #3 bull-rushes me from the side and taked us both a**-over-teakettle over the top of a thick hedge.  I'm on the bottom, face up, with one of his arms barred in a joint lock, but can't get the leverage for a break because my shoulders aren't actually touching anything to brace against.  He hit's me liberally with his free arm.  I apply more pressure to his elbow, which brings he and I to a draw.  He actually tells me to stop hurting his arm, and I reply I'll be happy to if he stops hitting me in the face.  Very civil man.  #1 has recuped, and is quite angry, saying he wants the big guy to hold me there till he gets his "9" out of the car. Horrible realization: I'm spent, and at a mechanical disadvantage to initiate an escape, attack, bupkiss.  God smiles on me: the large man says no, that I fought well, and that they just needed to collect their guys and go (#2 still retching in the gutter from the trachea impulse). I love marines. So honorable.

Leads me to my final recommendations:
1. Look unassuming (I was walking a small, cute poodle with my girlfriend...always a sign of somebody looking for a fight)
2. Count heavily on the good graces and mercy of others...literally saved my life.
3. Physical conditioning can not be over-stressed...my life was in very real danger, and I was done.  I was too wiped to think of a trick to get up, and it didn't matter...I was to toasted energetically to have implemented it.

So, kids, stay out of it if you can, and if you can't...Hit First, Hit Hard, Hit Fast, and keep hitting until you or they are finished.

Until we meet again in the place where we are all one,

Dr. Dave


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 16, 2004)

Please allow me to clarify.  While I can probably...maybe...technically get away with saying, "I fought 4 large Marines to a draw", the reality is that I lost.  Had it not been for the gentle heart of one of the guys, his buddy's homocidal intent would have ended with a bullet in my head.  Additionally, while I did "gack" one guy with a trach shot and break another guys nose, I was quite ugly. I was lucky in that they did not have knives, or I'm sure I would have been knifed horribly. I'm sure they were all sore the next day, as I did get some good shots in, but I think I was by far the most facially swollen of the group, not to mention the knots on my head from boots, the ground, and fists.  Got a broken tooth, bloody nose and very black eye, but no broken bones (maybe the nose, but it's so shmushed from sparring, no one can tell).

I've not walked away from a fight in a very long time, but if I had it to do over again, I would walk away from that one.  On the flip side, I sure did learn a lot about the differrence between theory and application, and I'm not sure I would trade that knowledge for anything.

Martial artsists can generally be classified into two groups: those who have fought, and those who have not. My life choices have placed me in the "have" category, but the fist full of advil I take daily for my training and combat injuries makes me wonder if it's worth it.  Might have been better off in the long run staying in the untested Ivory Tower group.

D.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 16, 2004)

I would deal with multiple attackers who are coming at me my 
first by keeping distance 
second taking out my duty weapon and warning them. 
If they still came at me i would start putting them down. Usually taking out your weapon settles them down and if that doesnt work shooting one usually does. Multiple knuckleheads act tuff until they see one of their boys drop from a gun shot wound then they run since they know they are prob. next.

The escalation of force is brought to deadly because of the numbers of people and the fear for my life or fear of recieving bodily harm.

If i didnt have my duty weapon. I would run if i could. But, if i couldnt i would not let them surround me and try to control the environment and take them out.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 16, 2004)

i dont care what people know. You can be the fastest tuffest guy out there the more attackers the greater your chances are of being serious hurt or killed. Its one thing to practice it in the dojo or studio. But, out on the street when you are dealing with someone there are so many factors and the environment is different too.
Also, you dont know what they know or what types of weapons they might have too. The best thing to do if you can is Run.....


Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## Tony (Mar 17, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Please allow me to clarify.  While I can probably...maybe...technically get away with saying, "I fought 4 large Marines to a draw", the reality is that I lost.  Had it not been for the gentle heart of one of the guys, his buddy's homocidal intent would have ended with a bullet in my head.  Additionally, while I did "gack" one guy with a trach shot and break another guys nose, I was quite ugly. I was lucky in that they did not have knives, or I'm sure I would have been knifed horribly. I'm sure they were all sore the next day, as I did get some good shots in, but I think I was by far the most facially swollen of the group, not to mention the knots on my head from boots, the ground, and fists.  Got a broken tooth, bloody nose and very black eye, but no broken bones (maybe the nose, but it's so shmushed from sparring, no one can tell).
> 
> I've not walked away from a fight in a very long time, but if I had it to do over again, I would walk away from that one.  On the flip side, I sure did learn a lot about the differrence between theory and application, and I'm not sure I would trade that knowledge for anything.
> 
> ...



How was it you found yourself in that situation? I mean had you unknowing provoked one of them? or was it a random attack?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 17, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> How was it you found yourself in that situation? I mean had you unknowing provoked one of them? or was it a random attack?


In all honesty, probably a little bit of both. In an evening walk near the base, they were imbibing in their car in a parking lot next to the sidewalk.  They started the engine, and (I'm assuming for kicks) gunned the car as if to hit my girlfriend and I, stopping just short of us. I thought it was so funny, I flipped them the bird and let out a string of blessings at the top of my lungs. They collectively responded, and it was on.

Windows were tinted, or I would have used discretion as the better part of valor (I like to think, but maybe not...my temper and my big mouth have gotten me in a lot of trouble over the years).  So I guess it was a little of each; they didn't need to zip up towards our legs (I moved out of the way, saw my sweetie and the poddle did not, and so moved back as a potential buffer for impact...driven by testosterone and instinct to protect, not by any delusions of my own indestructability), but I didn't need to respond with a vociferous string of provocative expletives.

Namsate!

Dr. Dave


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## Athena (Mar 17, 2004)

i had a class when i was about 10 that dealt with more than one attacker. they told us to keep everyone in a line and deal with them one at a time, and i do remember sparring 3 guys pretty effectively. i have no idea if it would work in real life, though, because i can't remember how hard we went. i know that i always gave my 110% (ha), but i don't know how things would have been different if they'd been pumped up on adrenaline and ready to beat me to a bloody pulp. also, when i was 10 i was more athletic than almost every guy i knew. oh how the mightly have fallen...


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## Skyline22 (Mar 19, 2004)

Hello, I'm new to the boards.. and I thought I'd add in a bit on this subject.  I seem to see a lot of "run" theories, which is well and good..but if you can't run, has anyone checked into the Indonesian fighting arts, specifically Silat Serak?  It's weapons based form essentially, but multiple opponents is a huge factor.. the assumption is that in combat, your assailants will be more numerous, stronger and armed.. I've spent a long time trying to find an art that was combat oriented and not showy or flashy.. most I've dealt with, had too much wasted motion in them, and that makes me sick.. in a real combative situation, an attacker will not allow you a time out so that you can assume a proper fighting stance... the stance you use, is the stance you are in when attacked, whether it's standing, in a chair, or on the ground... For multiple opponents, and defense against weapons, I'd recommend Pukulan Pentjak Silat Serak to anybody, any day of the week.  The only arts I've seen that equal it, stem from other areas of southeast asia, especially the filipino arts such as Kali, Arnis and Escrima.. they are in fact, Filipino variations of silat.  There are over 150 styles of the art,  Serak just happens to be my choice.  Check it out!!


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## loki09789 (Mar 19, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I have been in this situation, and while concentration and focus definitely matter, they are difficult to muster while getting pounded from multiple directions.



Agressive, decisive action makes a lot of sense, but to clarify something, sustained concentration and focus are a by product of conditioning - both physical and mental.  Train the mental endurance through constant practice.  Train the physical endurance so that fatigue takes longer to set in, therefore prolonging the unavoidable 'fog of war' or exhaustion that comes with stress.  Physical conditioning is important, but as part of a comprehensive package.  If might doesn't make right anywhere else, it doesn't make sense in as part of a training regiment focus.  The military uses the term technically and tactically proficient.  Fitness is a separate component.  Relative to the total man hours of training, PT focus is a regular part of training, but it is a smaller percentage of the total package than technical/tactical development.

Watch, someone will interpret this as "I don't think fitness is important"


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## TonyM. (Mar 20, 2004)

This is all pretty silly. Unless your talking about two or three people, in a larger multiple assailant scenario your going to get pounded into a bloody pile of goo. If your lucky you may run to a safe zone, but with multiple attackers they will probably catch you. At least by running you may wind them to shorten the beating. Been there, done that. From my experience I can assure you that the stories of yesteryears heroes defeating large groups of people unarmed are false.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 20, 2004)

TonyM. said:
			
		

> This is all pretty silly. Unless your talking about two or three people, in a larger multiple assailant scenario your going to get pounded into a bloody pile of goo. If your lucky you may run to a safe zone, but with multiple attackers they will probably catch you. At least by running you may wind them to shorten the beating. Been there, done that. From my experience I can assure you that the stories of yesteryears heroes defeating large groups of people unarmed are false.


Hear, hear.  The wisened, skinny guys who insist they could take 8 bruisers by keeping them in a line or aiming for the groin, eyes, or knees, have yet to be attacked by 8 bruisers.  As I said before..until you've been there, it's all just ivory tower academics.


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## moving target (Mar 20, 2004)

Well if you practice running, you train to run, than I think you do have a good chance of putting some distance between you and the majority of the group. If 1 or 2 can run you down, than for at least a short amount of time you only have 1 or 2.

But I don't know how you would line up 8 guys unless they were all morons.


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## hardheadjarhead (Mar 21, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> I know there was a thread on dealing with some one bigger and multiple attackers but its a whole new affair when the gang of attackers are much bigger and stronger than you, how would you all fair with such a threat?
> 
> It it were me I would run like Linford Christie!




Two the chest of the first one, then one to the head.

Site in on the second one, repeat.

Listen to whimpering pleas of third attacker, accept his surrender.  

Secure pistol before cops arrive.


Regards,


Steve


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## scorpio (May 16, 2005)

I have to agree with the group advocating a full out sprint to cause some seperation. If caught than fighting with any and every means possible is the only option. I have been on the recieving end of a multiple attack, three guys jumped me while I was riding my bicycle. I was 17 years old and had a fair amount of experience in one on one fighting. Unfortunately being surrounded by three guys while straddling a bike was a whole new ballgame. Before I could even lift my hands off the handlebar I was punched in the face, requiring multiple stitches when I regained conciousnes. If it wasn't for a passing motorist I probably would have had my head stomped in! 
All this sage advice on "lining them up" and "taking out the leader is a load of B.S.
When the adreneline starts pumping, and reality becomes distorted you can't think out a game plan, not to mention that these attacks usually occur over seconds. Save the macho heroics for the movies and avoid, evade and fight like a cornered animal if all else fails.

-Yours in Kenpo


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## Jerry (May 17, 2005)

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. When you were seventeen, you were attacked by a small group. You did not pick a target, nor did you control relative position. From the fact that you did not, you conclude that advice to try to do so is erronious and should not be listened to? Do I have your argument reasonably summed up?


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## scorpio (May 17, 2005)

No, you do not have my postion "reasonably summed up". My point is that in a high stress state the endocrine system in conjunction with the central nervous system excretes certain hormones in response to the immediate threat. Unless one has extensive experience operating under these conditions, higher function abilities such as "picking out a target and controlling position" are superceded by your basic "flight or fight response". This is not unique to self defense but occurs with regularity in police and military work as well. Maybe you have mastered control of this response, and if so try controlling relative postion when you get attacked by multiple assailants.
good luck! 
Also isn't a "small group" somewhat of an oxymoron?


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## KenpoTex (May 17, 2005)

scorpio said:
			
		

> I was 17 years old and had a fair amount of experience in one on one fighting. Unfortunately being surrounded by three guys while straddling a bike was a whole new ballgame...
> 
> ...Before I could even lift my hands off the handlebar I was punched in the face, requiring multiple stitches when I regained conciousnes. If it wasn't for a passing motorist I probably would have had my head stomped in!
> All this sage advice on "lining them up" and "taking out the leader is a load of B.S.


I interpret this the same way Jerry did.  In the first statement you admit that multiple attackers was a situation you were not prepared to deal with.  In the second, you use the fact that you didn't fare too well to support your claim that the aforementioned strategies have no value.  However, this doesn't really make that great of an argument because you admitted that you weren't prepared to deal with this type of situation.  If you had trained in multiple attacker strategies would it have made a difference? Maybe, and maybe not, but to dismiss these strategies out of hand because you were not able to employ them doesn't make much sense.

Before you get ticked, let me say that I'm not trying to attack you personally.  Anyone that is confronted with a situation for which they have not trained is not going to be able to respond with the same level of skill that they would display had they trained for situations of that type.  For example, a fighter who only trains stand-up striking isn't going to fare too well when rolling around on the floor with a BJJ player.  A guy that trains nothing but TKD point-style fighting probably isn't going to fare too well in a brawl at the local bar.  Does this mean that the training these guys have is of no value?  No, it means that you should train in such a way as to include elements from all the different ranges of combat and as many scenarios as possible (larger attacker, armed attacker, armed defender, multiple attackers, etc.).

I'm a big fan of shoe-fu when it comes to dealing with multiple attackers.  However, what if you aren't in a good position to escape?  You may have to fight and survive long enough to create the opening you need to get away and that is where these strategies become valuable.


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## MJS (May 17, 2005)

scorpio said:
			
		

> No, you do not have my postion "reasonably summed up". My point is that in a high stress state the endocrine system in conjunction with the central nervous system excretes certain hormones in response to the immediate threat. Unless one has extensive experience operating under these conditions, higher function abilities such as "picking out a target and controlling position" are superceded by your basic "flight or fight response". This is not unique to self defense but occurs with regularity in police and military work as well. Maybe you have mastered control of this response, and if so try controlling relative postion when you get attacked by multiple assailants.
> good luck!
> Also isn't a "small group" somewhat of an oxymoron?



This is why training in mult. attacker situations, scenario training and stress training will help in these situations.  Sadly, it is an area that is often overlooked in MA training.  Being able to function under that adrenal dump is key!!  Keep in mind that this is something that requires practice, as it certainly won't happen overnight.  In addition, putting yourself in the middle of the group and just start swinging is not the best move IMO.  Again, keeping a cool head, working position, and controlling that adrenal dump is key, but its not going to be an overnight thing.  

I'm certainly an advocate of getting out of there, if possible, but if its not, there had best be a strategy in place.  

Mike


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## lonekimono10 (May 17, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> In all honesty, probably a little bit of both. In an evening walk near the base, they were imbibing in their car in a parking lot next to the sidewalk. They started the engine, and (I'm assuming for kicks) gunned the car as if to hit my girlfriend and I, stopping just short of us. I thought it was so funny, I flipped them the bird and let out a string of blessings at the top of my lungs. They collectively responded, and it was on.
> 
> Windows were tinted, or I would have used discretion as the better part of valor (I like to think, but maybe not...my temper and my big mouth have gotten me in a lot of trouble over the years). So I guess it was a little of each; they didn't need to zip up towards our legs (I moved out of the way, saw my sweetie and the poddle did not, and so moved back as a potential buffer for impact...driven by testosterone and instinct to protect, not by any delusions of my own indestructability), but I didn't need to respond with a vociferous string of provocative expletives.
> 
> ...


 

    i  don't understand*" flipped the bird"* whats up with that?  look i'm not saying  that you are wrong, but *you did not have to go over were these jar heads were*, right?? ok you did what you had to do, but next time cross the street and don't go over where there might be danger .
    This has nothing to do with KENPO at all this has something to do with *"commen sence",  *i tell my students that if you get into a fight and it was your fault, well them the black eye tells it all, this is were (my old kenpo training) the dragon and the tiger comes to play,on that day were you *Dragon or tiger* no one can answer that but you.:idunno:


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## scorpio (May 17, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> I interpret this the same way Jerry did.  In the first statement you admit that multiple attackers was a situation you were not prepared to deal with.  In the second, you use the fact that you didn't fare too well to support your claim that the aforementioned strategies have no value.  However, this doesn't really make that great of an argument because you admitted that you weren't prepared to deal with this type of situation.  If you had trained in multiple attacker strategies would it have made a difference? Maybe, and maybe not, but to dismiss these strategies out of hand because you were not able to employ them doesn't make much sense.
> 
> Before you get ticked, let me say that I'm not trying to attack you personally.  Anyone that is confronted with a situation for which they have not trained is not going to be able to respond with the same level of skill that they would display had they trained for situations of that type.  For example, a fighter who only trains stand-up striking isn't going to fare too well when rolling around on the floor with a BJJ player.  A guy that trains nothing but TKD point-style fighting probably isn't going to fare too well in a brawl at the local bar.  Does this mean that the training these guys have is of no value?  No, it means that you should train in such a way as to include elements from all the different ranges of combat and as many scenarios as possible (larger attacker, armed attacker, armed defender, multiple attackers, etc.).
> 
> I'm a big fan of shoe-fu when it comes to dealing with multiple attackers.  However, what if you aren't in a good position to escape?  You may have to fight and survive long enough to create the opening you need to get away and that is where these strategies become valuable.


    Sorry guys, my intention was not to sound defensive nor definitive. I am not negating training and strategy for multiple attackers, rather what I am saying is that in order for them to be effective one has to control the adrenal dump and hopefully harness it to their advantage. Unfortunately this takes training with someone who has experience in this type training and many years of practice. 
I love the MAs' and have spent considerable time in their pursuit, and I know people in the arts who could probably formulate and implement a successsful defense against multiple attackers, I also know others, with many years training, who would be lucky to survive a one on one confrontation! My comments are only reflective of my one encounter with multiple attackers. I would just caution anyone not to have a false sense of security just because they have MA experience and think they are prepared for a group attack.


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## 47MartialMan (May 17, 2005)

Yes, I would have to agree upon running.

However, running is at the bottom of the list of options.

First, every scenario is a different circumstance that would have a different turn given a different individuals in different environments.

That said, prevention of the confrontation was the first option. Were you not where you supposed to be? In other words, the most likely place and point of time that such a circumstance can occur.
No one just confronts someone, "out of the blue", for no reason unless provoked. (I am not talking about gang intiations here)

Was I up against a group of larger opponents?
Yes-
It was at a college football game.

Did we fight?
No-
I remained calm and low-vocal, one of the opponents realized this and also had a hand in backing down the others.

Could the outcome been different?
Yes-
They could have still fought.
I could not state for sure what the outcome would've been.


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## KenpoTex (May 18, 2005)

scorpio said:
			
		

> I love the MAs' and have spent considerable time in their pursuit, and I know people in the arts who could probably formulate and implement a successsful defense against multiple attackers, I also know others, with many years training, who would be lucky to survive a one on one confrontation!


This brings us back to the old saying "you fight the way you train."  If you train in a system/style/whatever that has a realistic approach to self-defense (adrenal stress training, scenario based stuff, etc.) then you are probably going to fare much better in any violent encounter than someone who trains in a system that either doesn't address these issues or tries to sell the "magic bullet" ("if you train this style/technique you'll dominate anyone").


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## 47MartialMan (May 18, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> This brings us back to the old saying "you fight the way you train." If you train in a system/style/whatever that has a realistic approach to self-defense (adrenal stress training, scenario based stuff, etc.) then you are probably going to fare much better in any violent encounter than someone who trains in a system that either doesn't address these issues or tries to sell the "magic bullet" ("if you train this style/technique you'll dominate anyone").


Funny how you make references to firearms.......the ultimate for multiple (or singular) attackers.

I like your signature:
Wenn du den Frieden willst, so rüste zum Kriege
If you wish for peace, prepare for war.

Blade had it wrong. The world is not a sugar-coated topping. JM Browning and Hiram Maxim knew this. They made the "salt and pepper"


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## Jerry (May 18, 2005)

> Funny how you make references to firearms.......the ultimate for multiple (or singular) attackers.


 Ironically, you've just fallen into his other warning and given a "magic bullet" answer.

While I agree that the firearm is the preemenant weapon for personal defense; but there are times and situations where other weapons and skills are more useful. Though I think you know that and have simply made a "turn of phrase".


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## rompida (May 18, 2005)

I might also mention that carrying a firearm is not an option for all of us.  Even then, I don't encounter many people that carry it on their person.  Plenty that keep it in their car.  Had a heckler last week that was taunting my class from afar, saying how "that stuff wouldn't work on me".  (we were training outdoors)  When he finally got within conversation distance, I finally gave in and said, oh yeah?  why's that?  He said his gun is faster.  When I asked him if he carries it on him, guess what he said?   See the point?


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## Zoran (May 18, 2005)

rompida said:
			
		

> He said his gun is faster. When I asked him if he carries it on him, guess what he said? See the point?


 Those people are such idiots. I've run into a few of those types in the past and as usual, they never had the gun on them. It was at home or in the car (_where I live, you can not carry a gun on you or in the car_). 

 What I like about my hands, I will never leave them in my dresser drawer or leave them in my car. Nor do I have to reach to pull it out.

 As a great martial artist said once; "_Kenpo is great, it gives me time to reach for my gun_". Just replace _Kenpo_ with your favorite empty handed self defense orientated system/style.


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## 47MartialMan (May 18, 2005)

rompida said:
			
		

> I might also mention that carrying a firearm is not an option for all of us. Even then, I don't encounter many people that carry it on their person. Plenty that keep it in their car. Had a heckler last week that was taunting my class from afar, saying how "that stuff wouldn't work on me". (we were training outdoors) When he finally got within conversation distance, I finally gave in and said, oh yeah? why's that? He said his gun is faster. When I asked him if he carries it on him, guess what he said? See the point?


Yeah. I have to agree. Unless thoseabiding by the law to obtain a permit.

However, pending the area, the percentages of people carrying are higher.

The firearm is not the "cure0all". But the ultimate weapon to carry-if need to.


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## MJS (May 18, 2005)

> While I agree that the firearm is the preemenant weapon for personal defense; but there are times and situations where other weapons and skills are more useful. Though I think you know that and have simply made a "turn of phrase".






> I might also mention that carrying a firearm is not an option for all of us. Even then, I don't encounter many people that carry it on their person. Plenty that keep it in their car. Had a heckler last week that was taunting my class from afar, saying how "that stuff wouldn't work on me". (we were training outdoors) When he finally got within conversation distance, I finally gave in and said, oh yeah? why's that? He said his gun is faster. When I asked him if he carries it on him, guess what he said? See the point?




2 excellent posts and I agree 100% with both!!!!  People tend to fall into that belief that a gun is the magical answer for all situations....It isnt!!!   We need to be able to justify all of our actions and even moreso with a gun.

Mike


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## MJS (May 18, 2005)

Zoran said:
			
		

> Those people are such idiots. I've run into a few of those types in the past and as usual, they never had the gun on them. It was at home or in the car (_where I live, you can not carry a gun on you or in the car_).



Exactly!!  I havent seen too many people aside from LEOs carry a gun around on their waist.  What good will it do for that person if its not on them when they need it??  In addition, I wonder how many of these people actually train in different conditions: Ex- stress, low light, against moving targets, etc.  My guess would probably be not that many.

Mike


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## 47MartialMan (May 18, 2005)

Strange, how a thread goes off into another topic. The firearm was merely stated as one method or suggestion, on how to deal with bigger, multiple attackers. Though it may not be always on person, or other, should seem like another thread started elsewhere.


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## MJS (May 18, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Strange, how a thread goes off into another topic. The firearm was merely stated as one method or suggestion, on how to deal with bigger, multiple attackers. Though it may not be always on person, or other, should seem like another thread started elsewhere.



Very true.  You are correct though...weapons are something that can be looked at, though I think the original thread starter was talking more about empty hand defense.

Please feel free to start a new thread if the discussion about weapons is something that people want to look at. :asian: 

Mike


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## 47MartialMan (May 18, 2005)

Yes, self defense "what ifs" can be started and/or examined in almost infinity. If there is a certain "what if", then any response can apply.


Self defense and the use of weapons almost go in hand every time.


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## KenpoTex (May 19, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Self defense and the use of weapons almost go in hand every time.


 I seem to recall that Col. W.E. Fairbairn (although it could have be Col. Applegate) said that "empty-hand techniques are only for the times when you have been foolish enough to find yourself without a weapon."  I think that pretty much sums it up.  :ultracool


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## 47MartialMan (May 19, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> I seem to recall that Col. W.E. Fairbairn (although it could have be Col. Applegate) said that "empty-hand techniques are only for the times when you have been foolish enough to find yourself without a weapon." I think that pretty much sums it up. :ultracool


Out of the many fights Ive seen and been in, half resulted in someone picking up something to use as a weapon. True, people dont go around carrying guns going to the movies, restaurant, shopping malls. It is not like the "Old West".

Oh no, here we go again, on speaking of weapon usage.


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## Bigshadow (May 19, 2005)

First, I would say, it really doesn't matter whether they are bigger or smaller, they all have a human form (two legs, two arms, head, torso) and can only move like a human. Weight or size really doesn't amount to much in dealing with them IMHO.

 However, the question assumes that I would already be beyond talking my way out of it or circumventing it in the first place. Now I must be in the worst situation an actual attack.

 1. I agree that running is a good option, but might not be the best option, because running will then be a test of physical abilities.

 2. Many other people talked about "Keep moving". I agree, I would have to keep moving, but just moving about randomly is not going to help much. I say move to the safe spots of any attack.

 3. Others have said to use them against themselves, I agree. Definitely, use them as shields from the others as you deal with them.

 4. Others have said not to wait around until all are finished off. I agree. At the point running is safe, it might be best to get "skid out".

 I don't think that I have said anything new (collectively) that other have not said. Just this summarizes what I think the important points are as derived from this thread. 

 Let's hope that we never have to deal with that. I think as several have pointed out, mitigating the intent to harm before the attack is paramount.


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## Jerry (May 19, 2005)

> I seem to recall that Col. W.E. Fairbairn (although it could have be Col. Applegate) said that "empty-hand techniques are only for the times when you have been foolish enough to find yourself without a weapon." I think that pretty much sums it up.


 Improvised weapon? Fair enough.

Purpose weapon? How many do you have on you right now? How many do you carry at work? How many do you carry at your family reunion? On your air-travel? etc.


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## Flamebearer (May 19, 2005)

Yes... do you have a weapon? Do they have a weapon? Where are you?

Good situation: a place with lots of escape routes and things to hide behind and get your attackers confused about where you went/are. RUN!!!!

Bad situation: room with steel walls, floor, ceiling, no way out. (Don't ask me how you got in . hee, hee. That's your fault.) *When fighting multiple opponents, the main thing is to not fight them all at once.* Try and keep some behind the others so they can't get at you. Using the smallest one as a shield is not a bad idea either.

Just my 2 cents!
-Flamebearer


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## KenpoTex (May 20, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> Improvised weapon? Fair enough.
> 
> Purpose weapon? How many do you have on you right now? How many do you carry at work? How many do you carry at your family reunion? On your air-travel? etc.


Okay, I'll bite...

Normal day (not at work): 3-4 knives (at least one accessible to either hand); impact weapon of some sort (kubaton, stinger, travel-wrench, etc.); OC spray; garrote (sometimes).  If I'm in the car I've got a .357.

At work: In addition to all of above:  either 9mm or .45 acp with extra mags; mag-light flashlight; smaller flashlight (Inova X5 at the moment).

Family reunion: see normal day stuff

On plane: flashlight, a couple of sturdy pens.
-------------

basically my philosophy on fighting is the same whether it's fighting multiple attackers, or just one.  My goal is to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible using all available means.  Now, "eliminating the threat" does not automatically mean resorting to the maximum force available, it might mean simply walking away; or defending/evading and running away; or inflicting some significant damage up to and including the use of lethal-force.

Weapons are just a force multiplier, just a tool to help get the job done.


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## 47MartialMan (May 20, 2005)

At work: Everybody is fired/suspended if they fight. (Have glock on me...I work the counter-dad is owner)


At movies/rest/mall/: Glock 22-Have Conceal-carry permit...(got one for the family business)


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## MJS (May 20, 2005)

Its amazing to think about how many different things that are around us on a daily basis that can be used as a weapon.  Keys, kubaton as kenpotex mentioned, a belt, pen, pencil...the list can go on and on.

Its always nice to know that there is an equalizer available if needed! :supcool: 

Mike


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## Adept (May 21, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> At work: Everybody is fired/suspended if they fight. (Have glock on me...I work the counter-dad is owner)
> 
> 
> At movies/rest/mall/: Glock 22-Have Conceal-carry permit...(got one for the family business)


 If you don't mind me asking, what _is_ the family business? It certainly sounds interesting, at the least.


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## 47MartialMan (May 21, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> If you don't mind me asking, what _is_ the family business? It certainly sounds interesting, at the least.


The family business is a rental store. We rent just about everything from lawn equipment, construction equipment, party goods (tables/chairs/inflatable kid jumps.

The customers are instructed to leave a deposit (returnable). Much of this is cash. Needless to say, there are some "charecters" that come in. Some start trouble. On four recent occassions, there was attempted robberies.

The family decided this will be our last year. The sale revenue will de divided equally.

Being part of a family business gives me the ability, besides generousity, to teach MA for free.


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## Jerry (May 21, 2005)

I've go a Glock 23 myself (I like the .40) and the CCW to carry it. While work doesn't technically allow it, my instructions from security are "don't tell", and I'm not telling you either .

OTOH, the gun range doesn't allow loaded weapon carried in, and neither does the courthouse, or the police barn, nor the airport. Did you know that CCWs are not legitimate in areas where alcholol is served? 

The moral of the story being, even among the fiew of us who are oft armed, we are oft unarmed as well... we need to have multiple attacker strategies which don't include frearms as well as those that do.


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## 47MartialMan (May 21, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> I've go a Glock 23 myself (I like the .40) and the CCW to carry it. While work doesn't technically allow it, my instructions from security are "don't tell", and I'm not telling you either .
> 
> OTOH, the gun range doesn't allow loaded weapon carried in, and neither does the courthouse, or the police barn, nor the airport. Did you know that CCWs are not legitimate in areas where alcholol is served?
> 
> The moral of the story being, even among the fiew of us who are oft armed, we are oft unarmed as well... we need to have multiple attacker strategies which don't include frearms as well as those that do.


Nicely put....but given those areas you mentioned, have law enforcement or security "detail" anyway. So the occurance of something going on with larger opponents are slim.


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## searcher (May 21, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> even among the fiew of us who are oft armed, we are oft unarmed as well... we need to have multiple attacker strategies which don't include frearms as well as those that do.


Very well put indeed.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   I agree that as often as you are armed there are as many or more times where you are not.


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## Rich Parsons (May 21, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> No one just confronts someone, "out of the blue", for no reason unless provoked. (I am not talking about gang intiations here)




I disagree with. I have seen people attack out of the blue, just because they were now ready and the person in front of them did not matter.

Now some would say, why were you in a place like this? You could have left, and in many of the cases I would agree.  But a couple of times a drunk who had a bad day or was just looking in a nice place, just let go. 

Sometimes it is not provoked. 

Now the rest of your post about paying attention, is the right way to approach.


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## Knarfan (May 22, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Its amazing to think about how many different things that are around us on a daily basis that can be used as a weapon. Keys, kubaton as kenpotex mentioned, a belt, pen, pencil...the list can go on and on.
> 
> Its always nice to know that there is an equalizer available if needed!
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying eqalizers are good for certain occations . The only problem I see is that it may esscalate the attack . unless you are going to use a weapon that is going to put an end to the attack quickly you are risking really pissing your attackers off . Unless you can take them out quickly they most likely are going to raise the level also . When I was growing up I hung out with guys who liked to fight . I myself always hated to fight . I thought it was stupid & I still do for any reason . Never the less everytime we went out it seemed like we would find trouble . It would always be differant . People who enjoy violance aren't happy with just fighting , it tends to bore them . They need more . So one time my best friend got us in a fight with seven marines . He had made a comment to a girl . He upset her so she brought back a gang of marines . They were trying to explain to my stupid friend the error of his ways , but of course he wasen't listening . He found a new challenge . One thing led to another & it was on . Seven on two . Me & my stupid friend did okay . We got our butts beat , we got our licks in . I had a couple of weapons on me that could have equalled the odds with , but I decided to take my medicine because I believed that the marines were good guys & I trusted they weren't going to kill us . It turned out to be a good decition . My lumps all healed . I guess my point is that alot of this stuff happens for stupid reasons . If that is the case I don't think it's a good idea to bring a weapon into play . Of course there is no way to know for sure , but my rule is to always try & talk my way out of it NO MATTER WHAT you have to get over the anger . If you do come to the conclusion that the attack is on a more serious level you have to make sure that you are ready to finish the job . I don't think any of us would ever want to be in that position . So draw your weapons wisely . BTW most of my MA training is with weapons , but the more I train the less likely I would consider pulling a weapon . It really is a no win situation . I guess sometimes there is no other way , but I think you have to try extra hard to find other answers . Who knows , it might just be a matter of taking a few lumps .

:asian: Frank


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## 47MartialMan (May 22, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I disagree with. I have seen people attack out of the blue, just because they were now ready and the person in front of them did not matter.
> 
> Sometimes it is not provoked.


Allow me to re-phrase:

_*Hardly* anyone just confronts someone, "out of the blue", for *no* reason (there are reasons) unless provoked. Reasons: other than provoked-substance or attitude problems. (I am not talking about gang intiations here)_


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## MJS (May 22, 2005)

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> I know what you are saying eqalizers are good for certain occations . The only problem I see is that it may esscalate the attack . unless you are going to use a weapon that is going to put an end to the attack quickly you are risking really pissing your attackers off . Unless you can take them out quickly they most likely are going to raise the level also . When I was growing up I hung out with guys who liked to fight . I myself always hated to fight . I thought it was stupid & I still do for any reason . Never the less everytime we went out it seemed like we would find trouble . It would always be differant . People who enjoy violance aren't happy with just fighting , it tends to bore them . They need more . So one time my best friend got us in a fight with seven marines . He had made a comment to a girl . He upset her so she brought back a gang of marines . They were trying to explain to my stupid friend the error of his ways , but of course he wasen't listening . He found a new challenge . One thing led to another & it was on . Seven on two . Me & my stupid friend did okay . We got our butts beat , we got our licks in . I had a couple of weapons on me that could have equalled the odds with , but I decided to take my medicine because I believed that the marines were good guys & I trusted they weren't going to kill us . It turned out to be a good decition . My lumps all healed . I guess my point is that alot of this stuff happens for stupid reasons . If that is the case I don't think it's a good idea to bring a weapon into play . Of course there is no way to know for sure , but my rule is to always try & talk my way out of it NO MATTER WHAT you have to get over the anger . If you do come to the conclusion that the attack is on a more serious level you have to make sure that you are ready to finish the job . I don't think any of us would ever want to be in that position . So draw your weapons wisely . BTW most of my MA training is with weapons , but the more I train the less likely I would consider pulling a weapon . It really is a no win situation . I guess sometimes there is no other way , but I think you have to try extra hard to find other answers . Who knows , it might just be a matter of taking a few lumps .
> 
> :asian: Frank



You bring up some very good points Frank!  I agree that using a weapon is not always the best choice and is something that certainly will need to be justified.  I also agree that talking your way out is very important.  I guess where I was going with my last post was,* if its needed* its good to know that there are options around us.  Not so much a pencil to stab someone, but simply kicking or throwing some dirt or sand, some change in your pocket to simply create a slight distraction to aid in our escape.  

Regardless of whatever road we choose to go down, we still need to remember that our actions will be judged by the law.  

On a side note:  We have discussed quite a bit about the use of weapons, but to look at the other side of the coin, how are people training for the empty hand defense?  What has been added to ones training for mult. attacker defense, stress/adrenal dump training, etc.?


Mike


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## Knarfan (May 22, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> You bring up some very good points Frank! I agree that using a weapon is not always the best choice and is something that certainly will need to be justified. I also agree that talking your way out is very important. I guess where I was going with my last post was,* if its needed* its good to know that there are options around us. Not so much a pencil to stab someone, but simply kicking or throwing some dirt or sand, some change in your pocket to simply create a slight distraction to aid in our escape.
> 
> Regardless of whatever road we choose to go down, we still need to remember that our actions will be judged by the law.
> 
> ...


Hey Mike,
I agree with your advice . In your origional post you didn't really mention any life treatening weapons . I was probably talking more about the use of extreme force . I agree with you , sometimes it may be a good idea as an equalizer . Hopefully the people that are attacking you realize that you are just trying to survive . Also your advice on the additional training stress/adrenal dump is a must . I do alot of that type of training myelf . It not only makes you aware of what the effects of extreme stress are , but it will also make you alot more confident & relaxed . Good advice all the way around Mike !

:asian: Frank


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## 47MartialMan (May 22, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> *A*.) You bring up some very good points Frank! I agree that using a weapon is not always the best choice and is something that certainly will need to be justified. I also agree that talking your way out is very important. I guess where I was going with my last post was,* if its needed* its good to know that there are options around us. Not so much a pencil to stab someone, but simply kicking or throwing some dirt or sand, some change in your pocket to simply create a slight distraction to aid in our escape.
> 
> *B*.) Regardless of whatever road we choose to go down, we still need to remember that our actions will be judged by the law.
> 
> ...


*A*.) Very much agree.

*B*.) How true. been in "court preceedings" on two cases.

*C*.) Nowadays, people know about empty hand defense. A lot is now common knowledge and street-smarts. Perhaps back in the "Old West" or "Roaring 20's-30's-40's", Asian martial arts, or or the like, will look extraordinary


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## MJS (May 22, 2005)

sayoc FF said:
			
		

> Hey Mike,
> I agree with your advice . In your origional post you didn't really mention any life treatening weapons . I was probably talking more about the use of extreme force . I agree with you , sometimes it may be a good idea as an equalizer . Hopefully the people that are attacking you realize that you are just trying to survive .



I don't carry a knife or gun, so when it comes to an extreme situation as you mention, I'd have to rely on empty hand or anything nearby that I can get my hands on.  




> Also your advice on the additional training stress/adrenal dump is a must . I do alot of that type of training myelf . It not only makes you aware of what the effects of extreme stress are , but it will also make you alot more confident & relaxed . Good advice all the way around Mike !



I think that this (adrenal stress training/scenario training) is probably one of the most overlooked areas of some arts.  Unfortunately, if these people get into a situation, I would hope that they're able to react under that pressure.  Having the chance to attend one of Peyton Quinns camps would give a very good example of this type of training.  However, that same training and results can be attained just by using a little imagination, without having to fly to see him.  

Very good discussion! :ultracool 

Mike


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## Laborn (Jun 19, 2005)

All you guys say that to run is the first option, my instructer, he has told me some stories of fight's he's been in, where he's faced 2 guys, he told me this one story where he got a gang after him and he had to defend him self from 12 people, he said to go after the biggest, meanest of them all, cause that shows the others that if you're not afriad to take on that big oner, then you're not afriad to take them on, which puts doubtin them, which means they make more mistakes, i dont know if he said he ran, lost, or won, cause som,eone came in when we were talking, i doubt seriously that he won, but, my point is, i think it's posible to fight off multible attackers who are bigger, it depends on the persons skill

Laborn


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## Laborn (Jun 19, 2005)

I consider my self a good fighter, not good good, but you know, average, i fought a guy named calvin last friday, he was tough, he was a big guy, but his speed was amaizing, he'd been tournament fighting for 10 years, been in taekowndo for 12 years. Me and a few bbs fought him, and he beat us all and my instructer said  he was going easy opn us, * my instructer had seen him fight at tournaments* that guy was so fast, there was no possible way to avoid his kicks, and i couldn't kick him, that guy, i think he could easily beat 2 bigger attackers, he hits like a bowling balls, and he was so fast

Again, i think it depends on the persons skill

Laborn


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## arnisador (Jun 19, 2005)

I've often heard the "Take out the biggest one first" theory too. I think I'd be happy to take out any of them in a situation like that!


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## jkdhit (Jun 19, 2005)

its happened to me once where i was being approached by a 3 guys bigger than me (me being short though) and i'm proud to say i walked away with them injured and not me  

 if you choose to use any weapons, it should be an improvised weapon because attackers dont always see these as obvious weapons like a knife, spray, gun, etc

 i dont necessarily think its best to go after the biggest one first, i go after the smaller ones and use them as shields. if you can use proper locks and have good grip, it shouldn't be much of a problem. i ended up wearing them out by getting them to hit each other or refrain from throwing hits because of their friends which some of you may know is very tiring if you've ever tried to stop one of your own power punches


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## Laborn (Jun 20, 2005)

True, but i also see what my instructer says, if you take out the biggest , meanest one, then that puts doubt in the others. so i see both sides


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## arnisador (Jun 20, 2005)

It shouldn't be much of a problem, *jkdhit*? That's mighty ambitious thinking!


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## KenpoTex (Jun 21, 2005)

jkdhit said:
			
		

> its happened to me once where i was being approached by a 3 guys bigger than me (me being short though) and i'm proud to say i walked away with them injured and not me
> 
> if you choose to use any weapons, it should be an improvised weapon because attackers dont always see these as obvious weapons like a knife, spray, gun, etc
> 
> i dont necessarily think its best to go after the biggest one first, i go after the smaller ones and use them as shields. if you can use proper locks and have good grip, it shouldn't be much of a problem. i ended up wearing them out by getting them to hit each other or refrain from throwing hits because of their friends which some of you may know is very tiring if you've ever tried to stop one of your own power punches


Two things...
One: The whole idea with an improvised weapon is to have something to use if you _Don't_ have a real weapon.  If I've got a gun or a knife I'm certainly not going to pick up a beer-bottle or a handfull of gravel (unless I need to buy time to deploy my aforementioned weapons).

Two: I'm not going to specifically pick the biggest guy _or_ the smallest, I'm going to pick the one closest to me.  Also, I'm not going to waste time with [oftentimes difficult to execute for real] techniques like joint-locks or pain-compliance stuff.  Those are fine if you are dealing with one opponent and for some reason, you decide to control him instead of dropping him.  However, in most situations; and definately those involving multiple attackers, my goal is to get out of the situation.  If that means using someones' face as a starting block, fine.  I'm not going to hang around trying to dance with them.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 21, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've often heard the "Take out the biggest one first" theory too. I think I'd be happy to take out any of them in a situation like that!




The biggest is not always the one in control or the one running the show. If you can identify the leader and take him out or scare him, or get his respect, then you get it easier with the rest.  Not that it would be easy in the first place.


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## Laborn (Jun 21, 2005)

Think about it tho, multiple attackers are more confident, becuase of their numbers, so their guard, alertness, their senses usually drop, and if they have a big guy in the group they feel even better, i know this becuase of previous experience. So if they attack someone, and that someone attacks the  biggest guy, and takes him out, then the others will be more scared, their convidence will drop even lower, becuase they think, *well if he's not afraid of that big guy, then he's sure not scared to fight me* so, my idea, and thinking, go after and take out the big guy, becuase that might put enough scare in the others that they MIGHT , let you escape *low chance tho* or they will continue fighting, BUT,their alertness and confidence lowers, which gives you a *TINY* advantage.

and guys, in a multiple attacker incedence, you need all the advantages you can get.

hope im helping lol


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 21, 2005)

Laborn said:
			
		

> Think about it tho, multiple attackers are more confident, becuase of their numbers, so their guard, alertness, their senses usually drop, and if they have a big guy in the group they feel even better, i know this becuase of previous experience. So if they attack someone, and that someone attacks the  biggest guy, and takes him out, then the others will be more scared, their convidence will drop even lower, becuase they think, *well if he's not afraid of that big guy, then he's sure not scared to fight me* so, my idea, and thinking, go after and take out the big guy, becuase that might put enough scare in the others that they MIGHT , let you escape *low chance tho* or they will continue fighting, BUT,their alertness and confidence lowers, which gives you a *TINY* advantage.
> 
> and guys, in a multiple attacker incedence, you need all the advantages you can get.
> 
> hope im helping lol





Yes the big guy does add confidence to many. 

But I have looked through the "Big Guy" before, and told the guy giving orders, that I was coming for him, and what I was going to do to him in detail. The big guy in front of me, was no concerned because he believed I was not worried about him, and the rest saw that I did not care about him, and was going for the "Leader" to attack and hurt him. 

Yes, taking out the big guy works sometimes, not all the time.

I was just offering from my experience that sometimes you have to use your brain and intuition and react and make decisions that are not the norm or the expected.


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## jkdhit (Jun 21, 2005)

i didnt mean to sound overconfident but as with everything else, you do best when you are confident. 

 as for my choice in biggest and smallest, i had noticed that when you normally see a group fight, the smallest are usually in front that's why i said smallest. but yeah, the closest one would be best. perhaps the reason why the smallest are normally in front are because the bigger guys have a greater reach and height advantage


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## casper12 (Jul 20, 2006)

if running is not an option then u better fight the dirtiest way u can possibly think of. bite ankles kick nuts take out knee caps fingers eyes throat toes  whatever. if i couldnt run i would try and talk if that failed then im going to keep movin if not cornered and go for weaknesses on the opponent while trying to find a weapon.


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 20, 2006)

I think part of being a good or efficient martial artist is knowing, and truly knowing where your limitations are.  While it is one thing to practice against a multiple attack in a studio, it is another in real life.  Point is, if you are not too sure if you can handle that particular situation, and there is an escape route, use it.  If no escape route then fight smart, break legs, knee caps, noses, jaws, jab the eyes, hit the groin, remember the groin.  And by all means you do not have to finish the job, if an opening for an escape comes about, take off.


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## Christina05 (Jul 20, 2006)

I totally agree if you get a chance to get out of there get out of there. its not worth getting hurt over especially if you know you can't handle it.


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## Devin (Jul 20, 2006)

I think in that case if running isn't an option, its a matter of how many can you drag to hell with you.


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## Kreth (Jul 20, 2006)

Multiple attackers; larger attackers; and multiple, larger attackers? I'm anxiously awaiting the next thread in the series: "How do you deal with multiple larger attackers wielding meathooks?" :lol:


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## Bigshadow (Jul 20, 2006)

I am anxiously awaiting the "What technique do you do if you have a 12 inch butcher knife buried in your chest?" thread.


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## tradrockrat (Jul 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I am anxiously awaiting the "What technique do you do if you have a 12 inch butcher knife buried in your chest?" thread.


 
oh oh oh !!  I know the answer to that one!  Die. 

I'm with Devin on this as far as mentality - make 'em pay for it. 

As for actual tactical ideas, my friends and I used to beat the crap out of each other trying to figure out how to win against multiple opponents and let me tell you, they don't have to be bigger and badder than you - numbers will eventually win out.  The only effective tactic that ever worked reliably was to get outside of their circle or arc and try to keep them in each others way so that you are effectively fighting one at a time.

The downside?  If you do this eventually there are too few for this tactic to be effective and you suddenly find yourself buried under three people stomping you to death.


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## green meanie (Jul 20, 2006)

Get ready for a beating and go down swinging!


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## Explorer (Jul 26, 2006)

Yep ... running is number 1.

Taking out the leader OR the closest attacker to you is a good idea.  But I think you've really got to hurt him.  Drop him quick and very, very hard.  Then, move.  Keep moving (running) until you are safe.  Then call the police and tell them what happened.

If you have a carry weapon and you can't run ... this is a good time to pull it out.  If the bad guys back off ... fine.  If they don't you can't waste time arguing with them ... you have to shoot.  The old saying ... "Don't pull it out unless you plan to use it."  fits very well here.


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## donna (Jul 26, 2006)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I think part of being a good or efficient martial artist is knowing, and truly knowing where your limitations are. While it is one thing to practice against a multiple attack in a studio, it is another in real life. Point is, if you are not too sure if you can handle that particular situation, and there is an escape route, use it. If no escape route then fight smart, break legs, knee caps, noses, jaws, jab the eyes, hit the groin, remember the groin. And by all means you do not have to finish the job, if an opening for an escape comes about, take off.


 
Good Rational points. From a middle aged womans point of view, I know I havent a hope of 'Taking anybody out' so I would be running and screaming as loud as I could at the first opportunity. And if I was trapped I would be following the above quote of targeting areas that would slow the attack enough for me to escape.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 27, 2006)

Tony said:
			
		

> I know there was a thread on dealing with some one bigger and multiple attackers but its a whole new affair when the gang of attackers are much bigger and stronger than you, how would you all fair with such a threat?
> 
> It it were me I would run like Linford Christie!


 
Flee first, fight later.  Flee isn't available...aiming for eyes, throats and knees while moving as much as possible.  But there is an old saying about "strength in numbers" and another one about "mass wins wars".  This isn't a pretty situation....and a good outcome is highly unlikely....


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## samurai69 (Jul 27, 2006)

If you cant run.........fight like a "Demon possessed"............like a cornered animal:mp5:


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## jacktnicol (Aug 5, 2006)

I was always told to run just because not every body runs at the same speed then you can take them out one by one when the timing is right(assuming that as martial artists we can display this amount of endurance)

Jack


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## lll000000lll (Aug 6, 2006)

i would try to get my back up against a wall or a corner limiting my attackers from getting at my back. (definitely would make it easier)

but ultimately they would be coming at you all at once so speed and accuracy are your best weapons.

i would use:

finger jabs

knees and kicks to the testicles

and strikes to the throat.

i might even try to break a jaw or two

but finger jabs and well targeted strikes because these strikes are to soft, sensitive areas of the body that don't require a lot of force to effect the attacker. 

and taking out the eye or dropping a guy to there knees with a swift shot to the pants can turn the odds around in your favor. 

so it does benefit ones training to always include speed and target training utilizing finger jabs and shots to the testicles. as well as remembering the throat and ears are great places to hit.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2006)

lll000000lll said:
			
		

> i would try to get my back up against a wall or a corner limiting my attackers from getting at my back. (definitely would make it easier)


 
This may not be the best course of action to take, as it is also limiting your movement as well.  

Mike


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## lll000000lll (Aug 7, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> This may not be the best course of action to take, as it is also limiting your movement as well.
> 
> Mike


 
personally i know i would do better with my back up against the wall or a corner. i cant say for anyone else. but as long as i could see everyone i know where the threats would be and when.


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## matt.m (Aug 7, 2006)

If the legs give the beast will fall.  That is just how it goes.  The worst thing you can do is to not 100% commit to the technique you are doing.

For instance: If you are going to stomp kick someone in the knee cap then do it to break and shatter, not just to deter.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2006)

lll000000lll said:
			
		

> personally i know i would do better with my back up against the wall or a corner. i cant say for anyone else. but as long as i could see everyone i know where the threats would be and when.


 
Perhaps I'm just reading wrong here.  If we look at boxing and even some MMA matches, the idea of getting the person into a corner is to limit movement.  Speaking for myself, I'd think that moving, working for position, possibly using one opponent as a shield against the others, etc., would be a good option.

Could you explain how you use the theory that you're giving above?  In any case, as long as you feel that it would work for you, then it something that you have that you can add to your bag of tools. 

Mike


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## lenatoi (Aug 8, 2006)

Wookie Rage anyone?:jediduel:


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## stabpunch (Aug 8, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Perhaps I'm just reading wrong here. If we look at boxing and even some MMA matches, the idea of getting the person into a corner is to limit movement. Speaking for myself, I'd think that moving, working for position, possibly using one opponent as a shield against the others, etc., would be a good option.
> 
> Could you explain how you use the theory that you're giving above? In any case, as long as you feel that it would work for you, then it something that you have that you can add to your bag of tools.
> 
> Mike


 
I think the theory goes if you are free to move your attackers are free to circle you. A corner cuts down the avenues of attack but limits escape. A door way would be better because you only have to fight one or two at a time and you have an avenue of escape. 

Multiple attackers is a nightmare to deal with, fitness counts. 

Another view point is to act crazy, punch yourself in the head a couple of times, say things like "yeah oh yeah bring on blood" "blood frenzy" or growl like an animal. GET some, groin eyes throat. Black out and go with it, scratch claw bite elbow punch kick knee, if my health is on the line it isn't going for free. Ok maybe a ref might stop my fight but at the same time I won't get mugged for a plastic trophy either.

Having said all this i run three times a week and cycle for fitness, i want to create space and get the heck outta dodge.

:btg:Engage mind control body
:CTF: then make tracks


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## Em MacIntosh (Apr 26, 2007)

I have a theory.

If you do a little tussle and engineer it so as to go to the ground, tuck and take a few boots, you might be better off.  Sometimes the more damage you can take, the more damage you can get.  The biggest problem is that you don't know what mind set they're in.  Do they want your wallet, jacket or shoes?  Is he jealous 'cause you looked at his girlfreind?  Did you spill his drink? (on him?), or is he trying to look tough in front of someone (or group)?  Unless they want to beat you for a good time or to jack you up, it's probably one guy who has a problem and brought his freinds along.  I know from experience some guys are just "tuff guys" and want to be "big men" and you can't talk your way out.  Maybe they just want dominance.  You have to judge the situation so quickly and so carefully that there's a good chance you might judge wrong.  Sometimes you can roll with a punch, take a boot to the ribs and go down and take a couple more.  That's pretty optimistic though.  Then you have to consider your level of pride/ego.  It's easy for me to consider taking a beating, wait for them to leave, get up, dust myself off and go to a bathroom and get some tissues for the bleeding.  It's easy for me because I'm not very proud and I've been lucky with my ability to pretend I'm really hurt when I'm not.  This has gotten people to leave me alone and not need to go to the hospital, however, it depends on how mean and sadistic they are.  Some people don't stop.  Stay outta trouble!!!


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## tradrockrat (Apr 26, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I have a theory.
> 
> If you do a little tussle and engineer it so as to go to the ground, tuck and take a few boots, you might be better off.  Sometimes the more damage you can take, the more damage you can get.  The biggest problem is that you don't know what mind set they're in.  Do they want your wallet, jacket or shoes?  Is he jealous 'cause you looked at his girlfreind?  Did you spill his drink? (on him?), or is he trying to look tough in front of someone (or group)?  Unless they want to beat you for a good time or to jack you up, it's probably one guy who has a problem and brought his freinds along.  I know from experience some guys are just "tuff guys" and want to be "big men" and you can't talk your way out.  Maybe they just want dominance.  You have to judge the situation so quickly and so carefully that there's a good chance you might judge wrong.  Sometimes you can roll with a punch, take a boot to the ribs and go down and take a couple more.  That's pretty optimistic though.  Then you have to consider your level of pride/ego.  It's easy for me to consider taking a beating, wait for them to leave, get up, dust myself off and go to a bathroom and get some tissues for the bleeding.  It's easy for me because I'm not very proud and I've been lucky with my ability to pretend I'm really hurt when I'm not.  This has gotten people to leave me alone and not need to go to the hospital, however, it depends on how mean and sadistic they are.  Some people don't stop.  Stay outta trouble!!!



I respect your thinking and goals behind this, but never - ever - in million years will I voluntarily go to the ground in a multiple attacker scenario, nor would I ever advocate it.  I'm not trying to start a "my way is better" argument, but I absolutely believe that one must assume the worst in any violent encounter - simply put I believe that if I go down, I am staying down forever.  The concept of allowing multiple attackers to administer a beating to me is utterly unacceptable because it is impossible to be sure that they won't just stomp my head until its splits open. JMHO.


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## LawDog (Apr 26, 2007)

*If there are no other options available to you then do what your training has taught you do, there is nothing else that you can do.
*If you do have options available to you, other than fighting, use the one that can be best applied to your situation.
There are way to many variables for anyone to give a correct answer for these type of situations.
:knight:


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## MrE2Me2 (Apr 26, 2007)

A colleague of mine from another forum had this to say about multiple attackers.
http://templekungforum.14.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=68&start=25&sid=9c3375da8a3a26131b5a37b35b730e7d

  Current Student posted 12 basic tips on dealing with multiples. 
Here they are in a manner that I can remember them easier. 

*1. Before the attack (as well as during and after)* 
A. Environmental awareness 
B. Diffuse your vision 

*2. Basic tactics* 
A. Funneling 
B. Biggest threat first 

*3. Where to be* 
A. Avoid going to the ground 
B. Keep your escape route open 

*4. What to do (and when)* 
A. Finish off your attacker quickly and completely 
B. Know when to start fighting 

*5. Spirit required* 
A. Be ferocious 
B. Never quit 

*6. Specific to multiples* 
A. Using opponents as shields 
B. Using opponents as rams 

That is 2 Bs and 2 Ws and 2 Ss 
Or perhaps another way to think of them: 

Dealing with multiples is never a breeze, 
Instead, its a BWEESE


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## kidswarrior (Apr 26, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Please allow me to clarify.  While I can probably...maybe...technically get away with saying, "I fought 4 large Marines to a draw", the reality is that I lost.  Had it not been for the gentle heart of one of the guys, his buddy's homocidal intent would have ended with a bullet in my head.  Additionally, while I did "gack" one guy with a trach shot and break another guys nose, I was quite ugly. I was lucky in that they did not have knives, or I'm sure I would have been knifed horribly. I'm sure they were all sore the next day, as I did get some good shots in, but I think I was by far the most facially swollen of the group, not to mention the knots on my head from boots, the ground, and fists.  Got a broken tooth, bloody nose and very black eye, but no broken bones (maybe the nose, but it's so shmushed from sparring, no one can tell).
> 
> I've not walked away from a fight in a very long time, but if I had it to do over again, I would walk away from that one.  On the flip side, I sure did learn a lot about the differrence between theory and application, and I'm not sure I would trade that knowledge for anything.
> 
> ...



Have read this whole thread, and can't find a better post than this. All the advice (running the gamut from 'run' to 'carry multiple weapons'), 'what if' or 'if...then' scenarios, platitudes, and 'my sensei says' quotes don't yield half the value of a good anecdote--which this one is. No posturing, list of priorities to follow, sage advice, or macho BS. Just one guy's story of an evening-stroll-turned-ugly, and a few implied lessons he garnered from it. 

This episode shows the reality that fighting is ugly, unpredictable, dangerous to everyone involved, and best avoided if possible--not because saying so makes a good aphorism, but because of this story (and others like it).


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## tellner (Apr 27, 2007)

Strong side draw
Crush grip
Front sight
Center of mass
Squeeze
Follow through
Drop gun
Draw knife
Keep moving
Kill the leader
Don't stop killing them until they are all down or have left
Remember that the Allfather loves valor. Those who die in battle go to Valhalla.


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## tellner (Apr 27, 2007)

addendum:

Only drop gun if they're on you and the slide is locked back. And if you're so inclined keep the gun in hand and beat a few of them into pulp with it. 

Multiple bigger stronger attackers? That's a deadly force situation if I've ever heard of one.


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## Bill Bednarick (Apr 27, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I have a theory.
> 
> If you do a little tussle and engineer it so as to go to the ground, tuck and take a few boots, you might be better off.  Sometimes the more damage you can take, the more damage you can get.  The biggest problem is that you don't know what mind set they're in.  Do they want your wallet, jacket or shoes?  Is he jealous 'cause you looked at his girlfreind?  Did you spill his drink? (on him?), or is he trying to look tough in front of someone (or group)?  Unless they want to beat you for a good time or to jack you up, it's probably one guy who has a problem and brought his freinds along.  I know from experience some guys are just "tuff guys" and want to be "big men" and you can't talk your way out.  Maybe they just want dominance.  You have to judge the situation so quickly and so carefully that there's a good chance you might judge wrong.  Sometimes you can roll with a punch, take a boot to the ribs and go down and take a couple more.  That's pretty optimistic though.  Then you have to consider your level of pride/ego.  It's easy for me to consider taking a beating, wait for them to leave, get up, dust myself off and go to a bathroom and get some tissues for the bleeding.  It's easy for me because I'm not very proud and I've been lucky with my ability to pretend I'm really hurt when I'm not.  This has gotten people to leave me alone and not need to go to the hospital, however, it depends on how mean and sadistic they are.  Some people don't stop.  Stay outta trouble!!!



So why even bother to train?
Here read this. WARNING IT'S NOT A PRETTY STORY! http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_5277265,00.html
Sometimes the ultimate expression of dominance is take your life. What happens before that may just be foreplay.


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## Em MacIntosh (Apr 27, 2007)

I wholeheartedly agree.  I've just found some of the fights I've been in I've avoided being hurt by pretending I was hurt worse than really was.  I would never advocate this for anyone else or recomend it, but in practice it's worked before for me.  Judgement of character is paramount for this, and you have to be able to determine what they are trying to accomplish.  I have another suggestion, salt and sand in the pockets.  I carry an umbrella now "just in case" it "rains" (legal club) and love to study the martial arts aplications of improvised weapons.  In this day and age it's nice to know how to swing a chair, use a couple of bottles or whatever is available.  A good pair of running shoes is the best equipment.  (I think)


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## Bill Bednarick (Apr 27, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> I wholeheartedly agree.  I've just found some of the fights I've been in I've avoided being hurt by pretending I was hurt worse than really was.  I would never advocate this for anyone else or recomend it, but in practice it's worked before for me.  Judgement of character is paramount for this, and you have to be able to determine what they are trying to accomplish.  I have another suggestion, salt and sand in the pockets.  I carry an umbrella now "just in case" it "rains" (legal club) and love to study the martial arts aplications of improvised weapons.  In this day and age it's nice to know how to swing a chair, use a couple of bottles or whatever is available.  A good pair of running shoes is the best equipment.  (I think)



Judgment of character?
Where was this judgment prior to the assault? You didn't see they were of an assaultive character type?

I say assault because fights have referees.

Not me brother... It's run or fight. I'm not letting anyone have a free boot party. Too easy for things to get out of hand and you get hurt or killed.


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## Em MacIntosh (Apr 27, 2007)

Touchee.
Not sure what to say about that except I've been lucky.  I guess anyone I've got into it with had some kind of concience or fear of consequence on their mind and went easy on me.  Also, a point you made is that if I've chosen that rout and judged wrong, I've lost any sort of advantage I had.  I thought I'd throw it in there as it's worked for me before.  Even a lucky guy's luck will run out though and it only takes one time.  As for why I bother to train, I enjoy it, it keeps me fit and as far as self defense is concerned, it's better than nothing.  I do prefer the gun rout but don't plan on carrying one any time soon.


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## Em MacIntosh (Apr 27, 2007)

This is, also, a hell of a situation I've only had the pleasure of dealing with in high school, not on the street.  I've also been fortunate that the couple street fights I've been in were a couple dukes, a trip, a couple more dukes and a handshake.  I find great value in your wisdom as it's been gained at a high price and will promptly review my attitude.  Thanx for the feedback guys.


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## Jdokan (Apr 27, 2007)

I would push my wife out in front and say: "did they just call you fat?"
Then watch as she kicks all their butts....
Nothing worse than a woman scorned......


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## achilles95 (May 4, 2007)

I would attempt to reason with the attackers by asking to fight their best fighter one-on-one, without any interference. This would reduce injury and eliminate the dishonour of running (I personally would be very ashamed to run.)


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## Manny (May 5, 2007)

Dificult question and dificult answer, if you are outnumbered run is the best choice but if you are cornered and need to fight is better to have something at hand, some like a telescopic baton or other impact weapon that can de deployed within seconds, maybe a little can or mace.

I always carry a pocket knife, there are companies that have combat folders like coold steel, spyderco,etc.

Maybe de deployment of a baton can make them think twice, so always is a good option to carry a concealed wepaon.

Manny

​


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## tellner (May 6, 2007)

achilles95 said:


> I would attempt to reason with the attackers by asking to fight their best fighter one-on-one, without any interference. This would reduce injury and eliminate the dishonour of running (I personally would be very ashamed to run.)



Then you'll get the same mudhole stomped in you. But they'll be laughing when they do it. This isn't some sort of Hong Kong cinema/Manga fantasy where they will duel honorably with you. This is a bunch of people who are about to kick you to death. It's so serious that the Law says you can assume that you are in danger of being crippled or killed. 

If you can run, for the love of G-d run! Leave the dojo fantasies in the trash where they belong. Save your ***. You don't owe them anything. ****, even lions run away when the odds are against them. In one of his earlier interviews Royce Gracie talked about running like hell when there were several people or guys with knives after him.

Don't be an idiot. This is about staying alive, not pretending you're an anime hero.


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## MrE2Me2 (May 6, 2007)

Hello Tellner,

  You posted, _It's so serious that the Law says you can assume that you are in danger of being crippled or killed._

  Right on!
  I live in the Lowermainland near Vancouver, B.C. in Canada.
  Over the last couple of years there have been several attacks by groups of thugs.
  Inevitably they are wielding machetes and axes.
  Some of their untrained victims have confronted them and others have simply been in the wrong place.
  In one case, the young man was left a paraplegic.
  In two other cases that made the news, the victims were separated from parts of their hands.

  Regards, MrE2Me2

  Without prejudice
  E&OE


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## achilles95 (May 9, 2007)

tellner said:


> Then you'll get the same mudhole stomped in you. But they'll be laughing when they do it. This isn't some sort of Hong Kong cinema/Manga fantasy where they will duel honorably with you. This is a bunch of people who are about to kick you to death. It's so serious that the Law says you can assume that you are in danger of being crippled or killed.
> 
> If you can run, for the love of G-d run! Leave the dojo fantasies in the trash where they belong. Save your ***. You don't owe them anything. ****, even lions run away when the odds are against them. In one of his earlier interviews Royce Gracie talked about running like hell when there were several people or guys with knives after him.
> 
> Don't be an idiot. This is about staying alive, not pretending you're an anime hero.



Well said. You've converted me to a runner.


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## tellner (May 9, 2007)

Glad to be of service 

He who kills and runs away lives to kill another day...


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## achilles95 (May 9, 2007)

It's just... I am aware of seven or so thugs who frequent my neighbourhood quite often. When I imagine this scenario I see these thugs, and if I run away, I give them confidence. They will recognize me as he who was afraid and ran away and hence will attack again. Is there any way aside from running?


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## kidswarrior (May 9, 2007)

achilles95 said:


> It's just... I am aware of seven or so thugs who frequent my neighbourhood quite often. When I imagine this scenario I see these thugs, and if I run away, I give them confidence. They will recognize me as he who was afraid and ran away and hence will attack again. Is there any way aside from running?



What age bracket, and are they 'amateurs' just looking to cause mayhem, or drug/'Hood/turf-protecting thugs?

I get what you're saying about not escaping the problem, although *Tellner's* point can't be disputed. I have teens that have finally broken down and joined the neighborhood gang just becaue they got tired of getting beat up going to and from school every day. I certainly don't like it, but I can understand their reasons. If I'd gotten them before they had all the trouble, it might have been different. But alas....


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## MJS (May 9, 2007)

achilles95 said:


> It's just... I am aware of seven or so thugs who frequent my neighbourhood quite often. When I imagine this scenario I see these thugs, and if I run away, I give them confidence. They will recognize me as he who was afraid and ran away and hence will attack again. Is there any way aside from running?


 
So, you're afraid of what someone else thinks of you?  Who cares!  If someone wants to call me every name in the book, and actually, there have been many RL times when they have, thats fine by me.  Their words are not hurting me.  While we train in the arts to defend ourselves...well, at least thats why I train ...I've always been a believer in trying to verbally talk my way out first.  May not work, but at least you try.  If its not working, then defend yourself.  Is it possible to avoid them prior to a physcial confrontation?  I don't think anyone should be a punching bag for someone else, so it may be wise to a) start defending yourself or b) call the police.  Last time I checked, assault was a criminal offense. 

Mike


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## achilles95 (May 13, 2007)

What if as the attackers approached me, I acted submissive and attempted to talk my way out of it, but as they advanced, I suddenly launched into a manical frenzy, screaming at the top of my lungs and yelling "All of you! What are you waiting for!! Come get me!!" The attackers may be rendered confused and slightly anxious, and decide not to fight. It's quite a funny scenario to imagine, but it could work.


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## MJS (May 13, 2007)

achilles95 said:


> What if as the attackers approached me, I acted submissive and attempted to talk my way out of it, but as they advanced, I suddenly launched into a manical frenzy, screaming at the top of my lungs and yelling "All of you! What are you waiting for!! Come get me!!" The attackers may be rendered confused and slightly anxious, and decide not to fight. It's quite a funny scenario to imagine, but it could work.


 
Possibly, but they could call your bluff and take you up on that.  A Pre-emptive strike comes to mind here.:ultracool 

Mike


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## kidswarrior (May 13, 2007)

MJS said:


> Possibly, but they could call your bluff and take you up on that.  A Pre-emptive strike comes to mind here.:ultracool
> 
> Mike



Absolutely, Mike. Also, can't see myself having the wits about me to pull off something quite so cunning as acting when facing multiple attackers. As many experts have noted and my experience has borne out, in these situations our highest order thinking apparatus shuts down and leaves the basic 'fight or flight' part of our brain to handle things. The screaming is not a bad idea, but I would go straight to that conjoined with that pre-emptive strike/combination. If you could incapacitate two of them before they realize you are attacking them, you may be able to maintain the momentum, possibly taking one or two more out of action before they get their sea legs. Remember, they believe they have the upper hand, so are going to be overconfident.

Best wishes!


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## Hawke (Jul 13, 2007)

If I have the distance in gap...make like a tree and leave.

As the bad guys keep coming....
talk my way out.

If all else fails (have to think fast)....

I would mentally say a quick prayer then go all out while looking for an escape.

Eye gouge, throat chops, smash knee, ear slaps, elbow strikes, knee strikes, hammerfist, and just go full out b/c your life depends on it.

Keep moving using others as shields and rams.

Look for environmental weapons (corners of buildings, walls, the ground, pool cues, side of tables, ash tray, etc)

Run to a busy public area....blend/hide.

This is a very bad situation to be in the first place.  I'll be lucky to survive.


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## Narsil (Jul 19, 2007)

Hmm. really depends on the term "big"  there's the fat big and muscle big.  Generally if the attackers are big and out of shape, for someone that is fast and has MA training im sure its no problem.  But with the muscular type person person(which i am, and i know my weaknesses) you usually shouldnt get into it that much, especially with the "multiple" part.  In that case, you would use speed to escape the situation, because i cant forsee someone fighting multiple bigger opponents.


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## ehsen (Jul 26, 2007)

Gary Crawford said:


> Run And Scream Like A Girl!!!!!!!



This is shame isn't it.

I would suggest this.

Run and Scream Like A 12 year old Girl


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## TjThunder (Aug 19, 2007)

Tony said:


> I know there was a thread on dealing with some one bigger and multiple attackers but its a whole new affair when the gang of attackers are much bigger and stronger than you, how would you all fair with such a threat?
> 
> It it were me I would run like Linford Christie!




run or get my *** kicked....wait this has actually happened to me and unfortunately for me it was the last option!!


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## Darth F.Takeda (Aug 19, 2007)

This is why I always carry a blade or 2 and sometimes a firearm.


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## Guardian (Nov 17, 2007)

Tony said:


> I know there was a thread on dealing with some one bigger and multiple attackers but its a whole new affair when the gang of attackers are much bigger and stronger than you, how would you all fair with such a threat?
> 
> It it were me I would run like Linford Christie!


 
This type of scenario has always been a favorite of most of the MAers/SDers I trained with or knew and each and single one of them would have a different way of handling it from separating them to taking out the leader (as mentioned here).

It's a pretty simple problem to handle actually if you think about it.  If you can run, then so be it.  If you can't run, then your options are limited, separate, fight and keep your head and pray that you good enough, strike hard, fast and keep your head and pray that you can make a opening to run.  

Anything else is pure speculation as to what you should do or could do.  In the end if all else fails, make it good and take your whoopin for in most cases you will not be attacked by multiple attackers unless you asked for it.  As for asked for it, that has a wide variety of reasons.

Just my view on it.


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## tellner (Nov 17, 2007)

'Cause you look just like a Commie
And you might just be a Member
So get outta Denver, Baby. Go!​If you can't do that, it's time to see what you're made of.

If they're far enough away shoot the leader between the eyes

Draw your first knife, and start moving. Make movement hurt them. Soften your focus. Keep moving. Take the leader out as quickly as possible or take your first opportunity to make the guy who is hanging back scream as he falls down. Enjoy the chaos. Don't tunnel in or focus on one of anything. Be slippery when wet. There might be more of them, but they're not going to kill you today.

If they do, you have fallen in battle. The beer is cold in Valhalla, and Odin Valfather loves valor. You have been given a chance to show it.


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