# Yes Yes we suck.



## Cryozombie (Nov 5, 2005)

Ok, heres a serious question. 

Seriously serious.

I keep reading over and over, on various threads, by various posters, etc etc... how much we suck:

Bujinkan practitioners suck.  Our training methods suck.  The teachers teaching this art (outside of japan) suck.  The amount of time we spend using swords makes our sword work suck...

We just suck.

So why do we do it?

And, alternatly, if what we are learning "works" for us... if it keeps us alive, helps us get home after a confrontation, keeps our arms from getting broken when we slip on the ice and fall, alerts us to danger and helps us avoid it, and many other examples I can think of...

Do we really suck?  Or is what we are doing just... not the same or not as good as the people we are being compared to?

Do I need to spend 6 months learning to "properly grip" a sword before I ever swing it...?  Does my sanshin have to be flawless before I ever try Shito?  Do I have to do Kihon Happo like a 15th dan before I should attempt to use it to save my life?  Should I fall on my arms and palms and break my wrists if I should trip becuase my Ukemi is not flawless?

What is the deal people?

ALL I hear is NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE lately!

Makes me want to give up on this sorry, useless art and study Taekwondo.


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## terryl965 (Nov 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ok, heres a serious question.
> 
> Seriously serious.
> 
> ...


 
Technopunk does it matter what people say, I listen all the time about TKD suck but it does not stop me from training a wise and old man once said it is not the Art that makes a fighter, it is the fighters that makes the Art. As long as you are happy and you can handle yourself that is what matters.
JUST MY NICKEL hopes this helps. Be the fighter with close ears and carry a heavey swing to the end.
Terry


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## mantis (Nov 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ok, heres a serious question.
> 
> Seriously serious.
> 
> ...


yes YOU SUCK
your screen name sucks
your avatar sucks
jk...
im probably the most negative person on this forum (at least according to someone on this forum) 
have you heard the chinese saying "3 years for horse stance"?
yah, 6 months is less than 3 years.
doesnt matter what you do people will tell you that you suck. you either gotta trust ur art and move on, or u gonna be hopping from an art to another for the rest of your life.
last thing, you suck for posting this thread (joking again)


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## shesulsa (Nov 5, 2005)

Ignore the negativity, man. The bottom line is, are you getting what you want from your art? what you need from your art?

If you're in this to be a bit safer on the street and you are, then what does it matter what anyone else says?

For every art there are people who praise it and people who trash it.  Let it roll off yer back, man.


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## Bester (Nov 5, 2005)

Pity there isn't more US based instructors posting. They could probably balance out things.

Ignore the negative, focus on the positive, and **** those who ***** and envy you.


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## Tgace (Nov 5, 2005)

None of it matters in the long run. If you are happy with what you are doing let em go **** themselves.


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## Don Roley (Nov 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> ALL I hear is NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE lately!
> 
> Makes me want to give up on this sorry, useless art and study Taekwondo.



I, for one, hate it when people sit around and tell themselves just how great they are.

As good as we think this art it, we have only scratched the surface.

We should be reaching for the highest point we can, instead of being satisfied with what we are.

I look at Noguchi, Nagase, Oguri, Someya and of course Hatsumi and see the magic that they can do. And then I look at people that are going off in another direction. They don't even know it. They think that what they are doing is within the bounds of good taijutsu.

Is it a good thing to just pat them on the back and let them think that they are doing good? Or should we be telling them the truth and encouraging them to challenge their pre-concieved notions, re-examine what they think and set their sites on the excellence that we see in Hatsumi and those close to him?


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## Andrew Green (Nov 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Do we really suck?  Or is what we are doing just... not the same or not as good as the people we are being compared to?



Bingo 

Everyone compares others to themself.

A boxer might look at a Muay Thai fighter and say his punching sucks, and in comparisson, it does.  Put them in the ring and my money is likely to go on the Muay Thai fighter if both are allowed to use all there skills though.

BJJ looks at MMA fighters and says, his groundwork sucks, and it does, in comparrison.

Judo looks at BJJ and says the takedowns suck, they do in comparisson.

Don't look at each element of your training individually, chance are, in comparrison to those that "only" do that element, yours sucks.  But if you got 20 other things to work on, time is an issue.

Specialized arts will always say general ones suck at doing whatever they specialize in.  Ignore it and carry on, remind yourself of all the stuff you'd miss out on if you took whatever they are complaining about to the same level they do.


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## arnisador (Nov 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> So why do we do it?



I dunno. I do know that people attach their movie ideas of the Ninja to what you do, and real life will always fall short of that.


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## Shogun (Nov 5, 2005)

What we do is "self-preservation"....not self defense, self offense, or anything like that.  

Personally, I LOVE to pick apart the Martial arts I study, find ONLY the weak points. I don't like finding the strong points. thats easy. finding the weak points, and working on them.
a lot of you know I do Gracie Jiu Jitsu. I pick the crap out of it during training. Well, I enjoy doing a technique I do not initially see as effective. Once I have viewed is as "inneficient", I work on it even harder to get it to work for me. then like magic....it does.


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## Jonathan Randall (Nov 6, 2005)

Consider the source. Some 19 year old badmouthing TKD or BBTwho has a whole six months to a year of MMA or BJJ training will have ZERO influence on my own opinion. How many of us had to, just had to put down others at that age? Now as to the older adults; if it wasn't putting down another MA it would be saying how much better THEIR motorcycle brand is than their friends or how much better THEIR house is than their neighbors! The root cause of this, Technopunk, is THEIR immaturity, which is their problem - not yours.

I sympathize with you, though. You shouldn't have to put up with so much crap about your art.

On edit: I'm assuming your original post was speaking of the totally negative individuals who, if it isn't whatever their doing at the moment say - "that sucks"; and not those posters who ask legitimate questions such as does your BBT or TKD school teach defenses against takedowns? For instance, I personally love TKD, but recognize that boxers generally have faster hands. That's not running TKD down at all.


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## Solidman82 (Nov 6, 2005)

Everyone sucks at something. If people are telling you that what your'e doing well sucks, those aren't people you really need to listen to. If I were however to say that your Madonna impression sucks and you should never EVER do it again though, you should definately listen to me.


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## Shinkengata (Nov 6, 2005)

Im still in the art because i love the movement, and i love the openness. Now there may very well be something wrong or contradictory to that given what i may have said in the past, but that's the reason that comes to mind when i ask myself why im still in the Bujinkan.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 6, 2005)

I appreciate the words of encouragement, but it seems like you think I am talking about outsiders.

Im talking about the BBT people HERE... if you read any number of the posts in this section you will see all kinds of statements, from The way people in the west practice this art is all pathetic, any MMA or BJJ guy will kick our asses in a real fight, blah blah blah...  Its not one or two posts, its rampant in this forum.

Im not inclined to look up exact quotes and post them as I need to get ready to go to my pathetic sunday morning training... :shrug:


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## Cryozombie (Nov 6, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I, for one, hate it when people sit around and tell themselves just how great they are.



Well, you will never hear me say that, I PERSONALLY do suck, and have a LOT of room for improvement.  But I am WORKING on it, and thats all I can do.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I look at Noguchi, Nagase, Oguri, Someya and of course Hatsumi and see the magic that they can do. And then I look at people that are going off in another direction. They don't even know it. They think that what they are doing is within the bounds of good taijutsu.



I dont know Don, I'm not as close to the source as you are, so I cannot examine it from that perspective.  I have only to base my judgement off of 4 Bujinkan instructors I trained with and a handful of seminars with several others.  And I have to say that I think my current instructor's approach to training is gonna help keep me alive... and if thats not a clone of Noguchi, Nagase, Oguri, Someya, or even Hatsumi, its just as good for me, AT MY LEVEL.  I havnt had a 10th of the training those guys have... what makes you think I should move like them or do the same magic?

Its not even about that, anyhow, Don.  Its about the level of negativity I see on this board regarding most of the people in this art.  MOST of us have a long way to go before we reach the levels of proficency that the people you mentioned have... 

whatever.

Im really going to train now.


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2005)

Don't let it get to you dude!!  I've seen the posts that you're talking about on here, and I see similar things over on the Kenpo threads.  Don't let the negative words of some have an ill effect on your training.  You obviously enjoy your training, and that is all that should matter!  Who cares what others say about BBT.  They don't seem to want to take the time and really learn what the art is about, so they run off with a 1/4 of an understanding, and talk trash about it.

Keep training hard.  There are alot of great people here who know alot about the art.

Mike


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 6, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ok, heres a serious question.
> 
> Bujinkan practitioners suck.


 
All the more reason to elevate yourself above the norm. 



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> Our training methods suck.


 
Those still abound that instill bad habits, perhaps. Though truth be told I don't feel qualified to point each and every one of them out.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> The teachers teaching this art (outside of japan) suck.


 
You know what uncle H says...500 good, 500 bad.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> The amount of time we spend using swords makes our sword work suck...


 
On the other hand, when you pick up a katana within the Bujinkan you have done more traditional katana training than most other people in the world.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> So why do we do it?


 
Because it's a drug, we're addicted and as soon as I'm finished typing I'm going to go get another fix.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> And, alternatly, if what we are learning "works" for us... if it keeps us alive, helps us get home after a confrontation, keeps our arms from getting broken when we slip on the ice and fall, alerts us to danger and helps us avoid it, and many other examples I can think of...
> Do we really suck? Or is what we are doing just... not the same or not as good as the people we are being compared to?


 
Nobody is going to discredit your taijutsu if you use strength or something in a real confrontation when the adrenaline starts pumping and you haven't perfected your taijutsu enough...unless of course you become one of those who spam message boards complaining about the uselessness of our techniques, admit defeat and go off joining the vale tudo crowd. Having said that, is it really that hard to get used to the idea that one should never be satisfied?



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> Do I need to spend 6 months learning to "properly grip" a sword before I ever swing it...?


 
Ideally, yes. However you also need to be able to do front flips on your index fingers before learning Shinden Fudo ryu.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> Do I have to do Kihon Happo like a 15th dan before I should attempt to use it to save my life? Should I fall on my arms and palms and break my wrists if I should trip becuase my Ukemi is not flawless?


 
No, but if you're going to die, or get beaten to death by someone better than you, _you'd better make damn sure you don't die surprised._



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> ALL I hear is NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE lately


 
The nicest thing I've ever heard from my current teacher is that there are bigger idiots in the Bujinkan world than me (and perhaps one time that I pick things up quickly, but I may have dreamt that:asian: ). Really, it's good for the character.


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## Don Roley (Nov 6, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> The nicest thing I've ever heard from my current teacher is that there are bigger idiots in the Bujinkan world than me (and perhaps one time that I pick things up quickly, but I may have dreamt that:asian: ). Really, it's good for the character.



I had a similar experience just this week. It was not my teacher, but a very skilled senior to me. He drives me crazy with the way he points out all my flaws and won't let me get away with anything short of perfection. He has the bed side manner of Attila the Hun. But I learn from training with him and try to do so whenever I get the chance.

Anyways, he was going through things with me and took the time to say that he was doing it because I had reached a level where I could understand the basic way I had to start looking at things. I shot back that while I could see what I aspired to, I was still _heta_- which is Japanese for poor and unskilled. He responded, yeah you are _heta,_ but they (indicating the rest of the class who was doing something totally different from what the teacher had shown) are just plain _dame_ (no good.)

His point is that his carping on my bad points are a form of kindness in that they can help me get better. And I have seen him and others just nod their head when they see others do things I know they would be all over me for. If your ego can handle it, they can help. But it probably is not going to be a pleasent experience. It is very negative in its own way, but it does allow growth.

And then there is the cases where they don't point out problems and pat you on the back. Do you think that it is a case where there can be no improvement? Hah! In most cases, they just don't think you could handle all the corrections and stop coming to training. There were a few points in my life, largely thanks to the guy in this story, where I seriously considered giving up training. I came home from class gnashing my teeth I was so sick with the way he could easily open up my weak points. But the fact is I can't stand the thought of me being a person who would give up that easily so through sheer stubborness and stupidity I kept working on the problems he pointed out and maybe I have gotten a bit better because of it. I know I still suck, but because I won't give up, I am not _dame._

But in the case of people from other arts telling us we suck... the heck with them. We can aspire to greatness and try to point out our weak links. But some of them are just trying to make themselves sound better. Imagine what they are trying to compensate for it they have to do that to build themselves up in their minds.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 6, 2005)

Most people feel easier posting and saying negitive things.  It makes the feel superior, in some way, and that hurts when comeing from peers. But examin your own reasons for doing any thing, and if you find fault in what you do or in the outcome try to make it better. I am not saying try to make a sword tech better  but learn the tech and practice it and study it the way you where taught. Maybe after a while you will see the reason behind it being taught that way.
 Some times in the arts we learn things that seem less than equal to what is being taught else where, however we each choose our art and we should learn it in it's purest form befor comdeming it or changeing it. 
 Now if people from your organisation are always down gradding it and saying bad things about it I have to ask/say:
    Why the hell are they in it? If it is so bad to them why don't they go where they feel the training is better?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 6, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I am not saying try to make a sword tech better but learn the tech and practice it and study it the way you where taught. Maybe after a while you will see the reason behind it being taught that way.


 
Well, you see, the problem is that it doesn't always work like that in the Bujinkan. As my "pusher" pointed out about half an hour ago, some people are less interested in practicing the technique they're being taught and more interested in moving around (coincidentally, they're often the same type of people who punch you in the face without a word of advice and have an aversion to grabbing).



			
				tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Why the hell are they in it? If it is so bad to them why don't they go where they feel the training is better?


 
You honestly don't think I'd be training in my current dojo if the problems I rant about all the time were abundant there too, do you?


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## Kizaru (Nov 6, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> It was not my teacher, but a very skilled senior to me. He drives me crazy with the way he points out all my flaws and won't let me get away with anything short of perfection. He has the bed side manner of Attila the Hun.


 
Sounds like a Mountain of Wealth.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> It is very negative in its own way, but it does allow growth.


 
Human beings are like photographs, we develop from the negative.


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## Shinkengata (Nov 6, 2005)

When i speak of the things wrong, im saying them because i recognize them and am therefore making a conscious effort to improve. My training methods suck too...i don't do any endurance training...etc....but im working on changing that. Admittance is the first step towards recovery, to quote AA.


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## CrankyDragon (Nov 6, 2005)

I took Aikido, I hear bashing about it, I am now taking BJJ, I hear bashing about that, I used to take Karate, Ive heard bashing about that.  Wish I too could find a non-bashable martial art! HAHA!

But on the serious side, you take the art that suits you.  I am now in BJJ and think its for me.  For you, maybe not... But then again, being a ninja student isnt for me either.  Though.... You never know until you try, right?

Good luck, keep your chin up, but your guard ready! 
Andrew


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## Shaolinwind (Nov 6, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> What is the deal people?
> 
> ALL I hear is NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE lately!
> 
> Makes me want to give up on this sorry, useless art and study Taekwondo.


 
Your frustration is totally justified.  I'd be annoyed too.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 7, 2005)

CrankyDragon said:
			
		

> Good luck, keep your chin up, but your guard ready!


 
Sorry man, can't do that. Your groin isn't protected while in the guard.


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 7, 2005)

I agree with you Techno!

All of the sudden people that obvioulsy have no time at all training seem that we need to open ourselves up to new arts outside concepts in order for us to survive in today's world.

I remember when I used to train in another art and thought I had a handle on combat... I walked into a BBT dojo and got a reality check of what combat really is. All I knew was I was on the floor hurting in 10 different places and it looked like an accident.

Just remember why you started training and forget the guys that haven't really seen our art in action.

:ninja:
FN


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 7, 2005)

Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> All of the sudden people that obvioulsy have no time at all training seem that we need to open ourselves up to new arts outside concepts in order for us to survive in today's world.


 
You sound like you want to put on blinders to the world. Why? And would you be so kind as to answer the question I put forth in the thread about Hayes's books?


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## eyebeams (Nov 7, 2005)

The way to resolve this insecurity is to regularly test your abilities against a resistant partner, not via a pep talk.  I'm not slamming BBT practitioners. I trained with J. Courtland Elliot a few times and because he experienced that kind of testing he had my respect.  But to many folks, it looks like BBT material is expansive and elabirate -- and not conducive to providing a solid base, as people run from technique to technique instead of nailing a decent set of 10 or so techniques to the point of full functionality.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 7, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> as people run from technique to technique instead of nailing a decent set of 10 or so techniques to the point of full functionality.


 
Well, there you have it. Functionality under WHAT circumstances?


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## Dale Seago (Nov 7, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> . . .people run from technique to technique instead of nailing a decent set of 10 or so techniques to the point of full functionality.


 
Personally, I think eight are plenty. Pretty much everything else is _henka_ consisting of elements from those. . .


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## Don Roley (Nov 7, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> The way to resolve this insecurity is to regularly test your abilities against a resistant partner, not via a pep talk.



Ack! No! Don't do it and develop bad habits!!!

When you say 'resistant partner' I get the image of one person trying to do something like _oni kudaki_ and the other guy trying to prevent that technique from being applied. That would be the absolute worse way to train.

If someone tries to stop you from doing technque A, he open himself up to techniques B,C,D and E. And in this art, you don't hit a guy from the direction that he is expecting it to come from.

So, if the other guy has enough forknowledge that _oni kudaki_ is coming to set up resistence, the last thing you want to do is give it to him. Instead of doing "_Oni Kudaki_ or bust" as I call it, as soon as he starts to think something is coming, you flow into something else and catch him unawares. To train against a resistent partner would be to train yourself to do the opposite of this.

Now I agree that your partner should not throw himself across the room like a Ron Duncan uke. If the uke has set up the proper attack for the technique being practiced and the practicioner can't get the elements down, then the fact that it is not working is good feedback. And if the practicioner is so focused on doing _oni kudaki_ that he leaves something wide open, then at a slightly advanced level the uke should make it known by some means like touching him there. This type of training can get out of hand with people trying to count coup on each other. Traditionally, only senior students did it to younger ones. When you have bokuto, this can get real stressfull and interesting. There are threads on the subject here.

But 'resistance' is not something the partner should be doing. Pointing out openings, not 'giving' the technique, maybe (at an advanced level) throwing in unscripted stuff- yes. But no, _Oni Kudaki_ or bust for me thank you.


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## eyebeams (Nov 7, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Ack! No! Don't do it and develop bad habits!!!
> 
> When you say 'resistant partner' I get the image of one person trying to do something like _oni kudaki_ and the other guy trying to prevent that technique from being applied. That would be the absolute worse way to train.



No, I don't mean that. You can't drill a single technique this way. You can progressively add multiple approaches to an exercise, however, so that this set of techniques can be worked dynamically, with the eventual end goal of being able to practice with full speed and power under a set of circumstances approaching reality. There are limits, but these limits are not only concessions to safety, but to the utility of practical (and in most cases, legal) self protection.

And naturally, you need some prerequisite competency, to boot.


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## eyebeams (Nov 7, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Well, there you have it. Functionality under WHAT circumstances?



Ultimately, this is a function of your own agenda (many people study a martial art for reasons that have nothing to do with self-protection), but I would rather assume that you know what I mean instead of possibly being lured into a reductio ad absurdum argument about the true nature of self-protection.


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## Shogun (Nov 7, 2005)

> any MMA or BJJ guy will kick our asses in a real fight, blah blah blah... Its not one or two posts, its rampant in this forum.


that's an Oxymoron in itself. I LOVE MMA, I train MMA, but if your not cheating your not trying.




> I took Aikido, I hear bashing about it, I am now taking BJJ, I hear bashing about that, I used to take Karate, Ive heard bashing about that. Wish I too could find a non-bashable martial art! HAHA!


You know whats weird too? the fact that more BJJ guys "bash" more than people from other arts, but in turn, BJJ gets bashed more than anything.



> Sorry man, can't do that. Your groin isn't protected while in the guard.


Sure it is. Its protected by Triangle chokes, scizzor sweeps, Kimuras, armbars, and bicep slicers..haha


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## BlueDragon1981 (Nov 7, 2005)

Technopunk....I have been there, just look at the Goshin Jutsu Karate threads. Because a particular group of people didn't like the founder they say that everyone in the style sucks.

I don't think any style is bad....it all depends on who is practicing the art. You can get something out of most any art....you just have to keep an open mind and you have to be able to accept that your art may have limitations, which i am not saying yours does. People who can't accept it I don't think are studing martial arts for the right reasons.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 7, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> with full speed and power under a set of circumstances approaching reality.


 
What reality? If by that you mean a sparring bout against someone who is not only similarly trained, but knows you, your intentions and what you're capable of, well...



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> There are limits, but these limits are not only concessions to safety, but to the utility of practical (and in most cases, legal) self protection.


 
I beg to differ. It's a self-imposed and unnecessary limitation, which is something we strive to avoid in the Bujinkan if I'm not mistaken.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> but I would rather assume that you know what I mean


 
I know what you mean. And the problem with that approach is that whenever you try to remove as many of the limitations as possible, chances are everything winds up with an ever bigger amount of controlling limitations, mainly because you have to regulate what is and isn't allowed. All training is about picking and choosing among your limitations...because those are always going to be there.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> Sure it is. Its protected by Triangle chokes, scizzor sweeps, Kimuras, armbars, and bicep slicers..haha


 
Not from my clinch pick. I've tried.


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## Fallen Ninja (Nov 8, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> You sound like you want to put on blinders to the world. Why? And would you be so kind as to answer the question I put forth in the thread about Hayes's books?


I know this is off the topic but since you really want to know;

studied with Kenpo, Boxing, MMA (which was based highly on TKD) and trained with a few others. Believe me that is not something that I want to advertise on my resume. :asian:

:ninja:
FN


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## Deaf (Nov 8, 2005)

Techno,

I'm coming in late in the thread however I hopefully have some thoughts that will help you.

What do YOU WANT to accomplish?  WHY are YOU training in the Bujinkan?  These are the quesitons you need to answer.  You don't need to answer the "Why does so so suck?"  "Does the Bujinkan Suck?" etc.  Because to be quite honest, if this art DID indeed suck then I don't think the art would be around today since most of the founders would have died on the battlefield!    Sure there are a few "bad apples" so to speak within the Bujinkan but what people tend to forget, there are "bad apples" in EVERY martial art!  

It really doesn't matter what other people are saying ( whether it be one Bujinkan person about another Bujinkan person or someone in another MMA bashing the Bujinkan ).  The ONLY thing that matter is YOUR training!

I was in the same boat as you brother!  It took me a while to figure it out on my own because I was always worried how other people thought about the Bujinkan and they formed negative opinions of the Bujinkan and myself.  Then it just hit me...I train for ME!  Not anyone else!  If someone thinks I suck or the Bujinkan suck, fine with me.  Their opinions have no effect on my training.

Let the people whine and moan... In the long run, the only thing that matters is what you want.  And think about this, as these people are whining and moaning, you are training and getting better!  So who do you think sucks now???? 

Hope that helps you a bit.

~Deaf~


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## eyebeams (Nov 8, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> What reality? If by that you mean a sparring bout against someone who is not only similarly trained, but knows you, your intentions and what you're capable of, well...


  Compared to training using nothing partial or total compliance from a partner, it's certainly a step up!  





> I beg to differ. It's a self-imposed and unnecessary limitation, which is something we strive to avoid in the Bujinkan if I'm not mistaken.


  I'll be blunt: If an approach cannot be effective under legal, ethical and situational limits on the use of force, then it is weak. I know BBT practitioners who are not weak. Which would you rather be?  





> I know what you mean. And the problem with that approach is that whenever you try to remove as many of the limitations as possible, chances are everything winds up with an ever bigger amount of controlling limitations, mainly because you have to regulate what is and isn't allowed. All training is about picking and choosing among your limitations...because those are always going to be there.


  This does not argue for a set of limitations that excludes training against spirited, dynamic resistance.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 8, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Compared to training using nothing partial or total compliance from a partner, it's certainly a step up!


 
Not as long as that partner knows what you're intending to do to him/her. That is an unfair advantage people have in training that pretty much never exists IRL.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> I'll be blunt: If an approach cannot be effective under legal, ethical and situational limits on the use of force, then it is weak. I know BBT practitioners who are not weak. Which would you rather be?


 
Couldn't care less. There are Bujinkan practitioners weaker than me who could take me out without breaking a sweat.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> This does not argue for a set of limitations that excludes training against spirited, dynamic resistance.


'

When things start going fast, people often confuse their backyard pool with the ocean.


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 8, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Not as long as that partner knows what you're intending to do to him/her. That is an unfair advantage people have in training that pretty much never exists IRL.[/qoute]  As I said, you cannot practice one technique against resistance effectively. Instead, you train a set of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 8, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> As I said, you cannot practice one technique against resistance effectively. Instead, you train a set of them.


 
And once you change the parameters under which you train that little set of your favorite techniques, everything gets blown to crap. You cannot possibly prepare yourself for every possible threat, which is why we don't focus on the particulars of techniques after a high enough level.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> No, what I mean is that there are BBT practitioners who can actually apply what they know in a full contact environment without needing to use "deadly" techniques.


 
Yes, and your point is? 



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> The restriction they endure in this type of training better prepares them for the legal, ethical and circumstantial vicissitudes of the use of force then exclusively practicing single techniques on compliant uke and theorizing about the serious injury that might follow.


 
You're forgetting the difference between fighting and self defense. By regularly participating in full contact sparring matches you're programming yourself to voluntarily be there, and by doing so your claims of self defense goes out the window. Also, while these matches may take a while, self defense situations are by definition resolved rather quickly. And by all means, do not forget what the tactics you employ are going to look like to bystanders...



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> I encourage you to rephrase this in the form of a factual statement instead of a vague metaphor.


 
Let's not forget that if our Bujinkan membership is supposed to matter in the least, we have to practice how to hurt people while adhering to the principles of this century-old Japanese martial art. Just learning to scrap can be done anywhere, and if you care less about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu than you do about sparring and fighting, I suggest you take a moment to reflect on what good training in the Bujinkan actually is to you.

This also means that before we even start pondering how the usage of sparring might be beneficial to our practice, we have to tackle the fact that the average Bujinkan member has a grasp of kihon worse than crap. If you haven't trained so long so as to have a substantial repertoire, as well as a firm foundation in kihon, you're limiting yourself to the tactics that can be employed in a sparring match, and such limitations is, at least according to my understanding, something Hatsumi encourages people to avoid. If the parameters of the altercation change, if weapons or multiple opponents come into the picture, or if you simply encounter people with different physical attributes than you're used to, the tactics you've relied on up until then may no longer be applicable. 

So why do we practice kata, one might ask, if sparring matches aren't the closest thing you can get to real combat? Well, those who practice kata are in my experience more familiar with their CHOSEN limitations, than those who advocate sparring are with the limitations they're ignoring in their practice...


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 8, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> And once you change the parameters under which you train that little set of your favorite techniques, everything gets blown to crap. You cannot possibly prepare yourself for every possible threat, which is why we don't focus on the particulars of techniques after a high enough level.


  Well no, everything doesn't really get "blown to crap." People who know how to fight hard under a rules set tend to actually know how to fight without a rules set, too.  





> Yes, and your point is?


  It's that claims that sparring hard under a rules set impede developing self-defense skills are hooey.  





> You're forgetting the difference between fighting and self defense. By regularly participating in full contact sparring matches you're programming yourself to voluntarily be there, and by doing so your claims of self defense goes out the window.


  Under this logic, by playing uke you are programming yourself to passively take a beating, aren't you? Better to apply many approaches and to actually use your brain in a crisis.  





> Also, while these matches may take a while, self defense situations are by definition resolved rather quickly. And by all means, do not forget what the tactics you employ are going to look like to bystanders...


  Using koppojutsu to tear someone's wrist ligaments or rotator cuff doesn't look very nice either. Furthermore, you've fallen into the fallcy that adding one type of training gets rid of another. That's not the case. Adding resistant, semi-freeform opposition does not magically aliminate conventional training.   





> Let's not forget that if our Bujinkan membership is supposed to matter in the least, we have to practice how to hurt people while adhering to the principles of this century-old Japanese martial art. Just learning to scrap can be done anywhere, and if you care less about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu than you do about sparring and fighting, I suggest you take a moment to reflect on what good training in the Bujinkan actually is to you.


  Training can be about many things: intellectual, athletic, emotional and spiritual. But if the training is ineffective in a fight, all of those other benefits are based on fraud and self-delusion. Nothing good can come of philosophical musings based on a lie.  





> This also means that before we even start pondering how the usage of sparring might be beneficial to our practice, we have to tackle the fact that the average Bujinkan member has a grasp of kihon worse than crap. If you haven't trained so long so as to have a substantial repertoire, as well as a firm foundation in kihon, you're limiting yourself to the tactics that can be employed in a sparring match, and such limitations is, at least according to my understanding, something Hatsumi encourages people to avoid. If the parameters of the altercation change, if weapons or multiple opponents come into the picture, or if you simply encounter people with different physical attributes than you're used to, the tactics you've relied on up until then may no longer be applicable.


  Naturally, no method can be explored in isolation. Again, you seem to think that live sparring is two guys going at it without any coaching or feedback, and that MMA style sparring is the only kind of live training possible. Neither of these is true.   





> So why do we practice kata, one might ask, if sparring matches aren't the closest thing you can get to real combat? Well, those who practice kata are in my experience more familiar with their CHOSEN limitations, than those who advocate sparring are with the limitations they're ignoring in their practice...


  No. Kata exist to both teach the fundamentals of the technique, its relationship with other techniques and ways of moving, and to reinforce the ideal successful form of the movement. I don't believe in abandoning kata at all, but kata alone is not as effective as kata with more spontaneous, hard contact methods.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 8, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Well no, everything doesn't really get "blown to crap." People who know how to fight hard under a rules set tend to actually know how to fight without a rules set, too.


 
That depends on the threat at hand.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> It's that claims that sparring hard under a rules set impede developing self-defense skills are hooey.


 
It does if you want to approach an approach to totality. "You cannot fight in a pattern because a real attack may be unstructered and disorienting."



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Under this logic, by playing uke you are programming yourself to passively take a beating, aren't you?


 
Not necessarily, for those who do it good, there is a good probability to learn more as an uke than as tori.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Better to apply many approaches and to actually use your brain in a crisis.


 
We actually train to use our conscious minds as little as possible,



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Using koppojutsu to tear someone's wrist ligaments or rotator cuff doesn't look very nice either.


 
As a matter of fact, correctly used Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu has a tendency to make the exponent look like a total layman, and not a martial artist.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Furthermore, you've fallen into the fallcy that adding one type of training gets rid of another. That's not the case. Adding resistant, semi-freeform opposition does not magically aliminate conventional training.


 
All training is about being aware of its limitations... 



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Training can be about many things: intellectual, athletic, emotional and spiritual.


 
Indeed...sometimes when you train you learn the most about taijutsu, sometimes the most about yourself and sometimes the most about the Bujinkan.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> But if the training is ineffective in a fight, all of those other benefits are based on fraud and self-delusion.


 
But to say whether or not something is effective or not, you have to take into account the person using it, the person(s) he's using it against and the environment in which it all takes place. A sparring match is NOT the end-all proof of what works universally.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Naturally, no method can be explored in isolation. Again, you seem to think that live sparring is two guys going at it without any coaching or feedback, and that MMA style sparring is the only kind of live training possible. Neither of these is true.


 
Never implied that that was the case, but one of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is that if you eventually want to move quickly and correctly, you start out by going slowly and correctly. Anyone who suggests it's better to do otherwise is not only naive but also quite unfamiliar with the nature of Bujinkan training.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> No. Kata exist to both teach the fundamentals of the technique, its relationship with other techniques and ways of moving, and to reinforce the ideal successful form of the movement. I don't believe in abandoning kata at all, but kata alone is not as effective as kata with more spontaneous, hard contact methods.


 
Kata in our case is probably more about teaching the fundamentals of Bujinkan Budo taijutsu, and again, if you don't think kata training has spontaneous elements inherent, you're unfamiliar with the nature of the practice of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.


----------



## Kreth (Nov 9, 2005)

I'm curious if either of you could tell me what your little spat about sparring/not sparring has to do with Technopunk's original post about elitists in the Bujinkan...
In other words, get back on topic.


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 14, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I'm curious if either of you could tell me what your little spat about sparring/not sparring has to do with Technopunk's original post about elitists in the Bujinkan...



It has to do with accusations that Buj practitioners are incompetent martial artists, actually, and that folks are better off with taekwondo (to paraphrase the initial post). The main thing that unites all of the competent Bujinkan folks I've met is that they have actualy trained against dynamic resistance.

In fact, after meeting such people and witnessing their competence firsthand, it surprises me that this is such a controversial topic within this community at all that some consider it to be a slander on their art to even discuss it. That kind of insecurity certainly isn't mine or the Bujinkan's fault, is it?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 14, 2005)

What you don't factor into the equation is whether or not what these individuals are doing actually bears resemblance to what is being taught in Japan.


----------



## Cryozombie (Nov 14, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> It has to do with accusations that Buj practitioners are incompetent martial artists, actually, and that folks are better off with taekwondo (to paraphrase the initial post).


 
If thats what you got out of my post, you misread or misundertood.


----------



## Bigshadow (Nov 14, 2005)

Technopunk... I think many have already hashed out alot of things. However, the only thing I can think of to say is if people try to compare different martial arts it is like comparing a framing hammer with a sledge hammer. Both are hammers, but each type of hammer is for a different purpose. Furthermore, some hammers are more versatile than others. Just keep going.

Hang in there!


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 14, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> What you don't factor into the equation is whether or not what these individuals are doing actually bears resemblance to what is being taught in Japan.



Oh, that? You'll never know unless you're issued Menkyo anyway. Getting neurotic over who is learning the "true" Bujinkan-linage traditions is so much hot air unless you have a direct connection to somebody with a Menkyo level rather than Gendai Budo kyu-dan affectations that the soke doesn't particularly care about anyway.

This never fails to boggle my mind. The Menkyo system is the only thing that ensures an official approval of the techniques of a koryu lineage. I'd assume that as far as Dr. Hatsumi is concerned, it casts no aspersions on the Bujinkan arts whatsoever if nobody outside the Menkyo system has any idea what they're doing. X-Kan shenanigans, Toshindo versus hombu-hardliners, none of them can claim any special position without the support of someone with a real license saying that one thing is good, and another thing is bad.


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 14, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> If thats what you got out of my post, you misread or misundertood.



Asking a question does not always entitle one to the answers they would like to hear.

Here's the thing: I know competent Bujinkan martial artists. They are competent by more than the internal standards of their organization/branch/club. They are just good -- and good in a multifacetted sense, not just in terms of their koppo or koshi or weapons. What these people all have in common is previous or current experience with various kinds of free fighting. They compare favourably with practitioners of other arts.

I certainly can't help but "misunderstand" anyone who finds this simple observation threatening or insulting.


----------



## Cryozombie (Nov 14, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I certainly can't help but "misunderstand" anyone who finds this simple observation threatening or insulting.


 
Haha.

Yeah.

I found you neither.


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 14, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Haha.
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> I found you neither.



I have no doubt that you conduct yourself with extraordinary confidence.


----------



## Cryozombie (Nov 14, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I have no doubt that you conduct yourself with extraordinary confidence.


 
Thank you.  I appreciate the compliment.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 14, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Oh, that? You'll never know unless you're issued
> Menkyo anyway.


 
Actually, it's very simple to tell. If you have the experience, that is.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Getting neurotic over who is learning the "true" Bujinkan-linage traditions is so much hot air unless you have a direct connection to somebody with a Menkyo level rather than Gendai Budo kyu-dan affectations that the soke doesn't particularly care about anyway.


 
Sure. The most obvious characteristic trait of the Japanese is their fondness of giving people straight answers. 



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> This never fails to boggle my mind. The Menkyo system is the only thing that ensures an official approval of the techniques of a koryu lineage. I'd assume that as far as Dr. Hatsumi is concerned, it casts no aspersions on the Bujinkan arts whatsoever if nobody outside the Menkyo system has any idea what they're doing. X-Kan shenanigans, Toshindo versus hombu-hardliners, none of them can claim any special position without the support of someone with a real license saying that one thing is good, and another thing is bad.


 
I seriously have no idea where you're going with this. 



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> What these people all have in common is previous or current experience with various kinds of free fighting. They compare favourably with practitioners of other arts.
> 
> I certainly can't help but "misunderstand" anyone who finds this simple observation threatening or insulting.


 
Well, it does speak somewhat of your ignorance regarding Bujinkan shihan. I know of several excellent practitioners who have never practiced any other martial art over a continuous period of time.
Even so, Hatsumi, Nagato and many other shihan fit into your description of these skilled people you've encountered. So why is it that they don't emphasize regular sparring practice?


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 14, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Actually, it's very simple to tell. If you have the experience, that is.


 
I'd have to know what Dr. Hatsumi's inka looks like, and to be honest, I only have a very rough idea of what a densho looks like -- so I agree!



> Sure. The most obvious characteristic trait of the Japanese is their fondness of giving people straight answers.



 That's kind of my point, actually.



> I seriously have no idea where you're going with this.


 
Arguments about what's authentic don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the word of a license holder. 



> Well, it does speak somewhat of your ignorance regarding Bujinkan shihan. I know of several excellent practitioners who have never practiced any other martial art over a continuous period of time.



It has nothing to do with cross-training. It does have to do with a certain kind of training, though.



> Even so, Hatsumi, Nagato and many other shihan fit into your description of these skilled people you've encountered. So why is it that they don't emphasize regular sparring practice?



Because they've already done it and are not especially inclined to lead you by the hand to every little thing you must do to become competent.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 14, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I'd have to know what Dr. Hatsumi's inka looks like, and to be honest, I only have a very rough idea of what a densho looks like -- so I agree!


 
You honestly don't think I was suggesting that one should look to the densho for general guidelines as to how one's taijutsu should be "like"? If so, you obviously aren't aware of the manner in which they're written...



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> That's kind of my point, actually.


 
Which means that accumulated knowledge through persistent training is the only way of coming even close to understanding.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Arguments about what's authentic don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the word of a license holder.


 
Well, Soke would probably not stoop to that level, but what I was getting at is that the best and most simple way to find out about someone's skill is to be their uke. Something I do claim to know about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is how it should feel to be on the receiving end of it. Suffice to say, I've done just that to several people whom I know practice free sparring regularly, and it doesn't compare in the least to being an uke to the Japanese shihan, or even a truly skilled westerner.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> It has nothing to do with cross-training. It does have to do with a certain kind of training, though.


 
After how long a time period of Bujinkan training then, if I may ask?



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Because they've already done it and are not especially inclined to lead you by the hand to every little thing you must do to become competent.


 
So it doesn't tell you anything that both of them have said repeatedly that sparring practice should be used cautiously and not too early due to the high risk it bears with it to instill bad habits?


----------



## Shinkengata (Nov 15, 2005)

This discussion has taken a considerably productive turn. It's not often that lengthy discussions about politics and lineages hold my attention for more than a few posts.


----------



## eyebeams (Nov 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> You honestly don't think I was suggesting that one should look to the densho for general guidelines as to how one's taijutsu should be "like"? If so, you obviously aren't aware of the manner in which they're written...



Actually, I am aware of their usual contents. That is not my point.

But someone with traditional koryu certification is the end authority if you want to know if you're doing it "right." Their gendai budo style ranks are irrelevant.

I think that once Dr. Hatsumi passes, this is all going to get rather interesting, of course, since he's allegedly granted menkyo to people quietly, passed on kuden and done all sorts of other things that will, if anything break down people's desperation to have authority over some part of the syllabus, even if many do prefer to cloak it in one form of falsely modest, passive aggressive rhetoric or another.

Plus, of course, the curriculum, standards and the identity of the Bujinkan has changed as various political fortunes have waxed and waned and Dr. Hatsumi has exercised his perogative as soke to make adjustments whose full depth is ultimately known to nobody but himself.

And he is well within his rights to do all of these things, from arbitrary rankings to his admitted use of deception and misdirection as a form of traditional teaching. None of these are bad things.

But do they destablize people's claims of what's "good" and "authentic?" Outside of the basic consideration of whether a given method actually works, they definitely do.



> Which means that accumulated knowledge through persistent training is the only way of coming even close to understanding.



Understanding the subject of the training, certainly. This is either very limited or very broad, depending on your ability to expand upon recieved knowledge.



> Well, Soke would probably not stoop to that level, but what I was getting at is that the best and most simple way to find out about someone's skill is to be their uke.



It depends on the sincerity of all involved. What do you mean about "stooping?" All I'm saying is that authority is not definitively (much less exclusively) granted through the kyu/dan system.

Something I do claim to know about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is how it should feel to be on the receiving end of it. Suffice to say, I've done just that to several people whom I know practice free sparring regularly, and it doesn't compare in the least to being an uke to the Japanese shihan, or even a truly skilled westerner.



> After how long a time period of Bujinkan training then, if I may ask?


 
It would depend on the person, the school and the training. Some people require an extended period of acclimatization to the hardships of certain kinds of sparring. Some people have the advantage of instinct, but are slow to adopt technique.



> So it doesn't tell you anything that both of them have said repeatedly that sparring practice should be used cautiously and not too early due to the high risk it bears with it to instill bad habits?



Sure. The primary danger is that it becomes the sole focus and hinders the ability to decisively respond, and that there is insufficient guidance from instructors about the difference between the exercise and possible engagements. For instance, moving in and out of distance repeatedly is very common in competitive striking, but is not nearly so common in self-defense.

Even so, replying on an uke who responds as expected instills at least as many bad habits, unless you are training to look good at an embu. In fact, pretty much *every* method has flaws if it is used in isolation, and as I said to Don Roley several pages ago, that's not the way to go.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 15, 2005)

I am finding this interesting reading.
I do have one thought on what has been  said but pkease don't get side tracked by my thoughts


> If an approach cannot be effective under legal, ethical and situational limits on the use of force, then it is weak.


Why I thought martial arts where made for situations that can occure outside of law (war) and ubder whose idea of legal and ethical (yours mine the guy in a hut in uganda). When talking about ethics and legal things =these values differ greatly depending on many things.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 15, 2005)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> But someone with traditional koryu certification is the end authority if you want to know if you're doing it "right." Their gendai budo style ranks are irrelevant.
> I think that once Dr. Hatsumi passes, this is all going to get rather interesting, of course, since he's allegedly granted menkyo to people quietly, passed on kuden and done all sorts of other things that will, if anything break down people's desperation to have authority over some part of the syllabus, even if many do prefer to cloak it in one form of falsely modest, passive aggressive rhetoric or another.


 
I hope this is not your way of trying to give anyone an excuse to do things however they feel like? 

The fact of the matter is that it can be seen (and felt) if a person's training has involved an unusual amount of sparring, the same way you can "see" if someone is in kamae or not.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> It depends on the sincerity of all involved. What do you mean about "stooping?" All I'm saying is that authority is not definitively (much less exclusively) granted through the kyu/dan system.


 
What I meant was that I don't think Hatsumi is going to lend himself to be uke for anyone sometime in the near future.
And I couldn't care less about dan ranks as indication of a person's skill. This is the Bujinkan after all, trying to impress people by the merits of your rank alone is kind of like bragging about the fact that you eat soup with a spoon. Like I said before, if you have experience with training with many people you eventually learn to see whomever is heading off in a different direction than what others strive for. Besides, good instructors tend to make a name for themselves and that is something that happens regardless of his or her particular style of martial art.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> It would depend on the person, the school and the training. Some people require an extended period of acclimatization to the hardships of certain kinds of sparring. Some people have the advantage of instinct, but are slow to adopt technique.


 
Now this I do agree with.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Sure. The primary danger is that it becomes the sole focus and hinders the ability to decisively respond, and that there is insufficient guidance from instructors about the difference between the exercise and possible engagements. For instance, moving in and out of distance repeatedly is very common in competitive striking, but is not nearly so common in self-defense.


 
Agreed, and the easiest way to avoid this phenomenon is not to have people start sparring right away but to wait until they've been training for so long so as to have at least some control of their bodies.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Even so, replying on an uke who responds as expected instills at least as many bad habits, unless you are training to look good at an embu.


 
Of course, that's many times not the case even if you're simply practicing kata.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> In fact, pretty much *every* method has flaws if it is used in isolation, and as I said to Don Roley several pages ago, that's not the way to go.


 
Agreed, it's all about choosing between limitations. And as Hock Hochheim likes to say, "you can't learn to swim for the first time in a tsunami".


----------



## Don Roley (Nov 24, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I'm curious if either of you could tell me what your little spat about sparring/not sparring has to do with Technopunk's original post about elitists in the Bujinkan...



Shouldn't that be _Japan_ elitists? Obviously he is talking about things I have been saying here and elsewhere.

And I am not afraid to say that I stand by everything I have said on the matter. There are large gaps in the knowledge base of 99 percent of the Bujinkan people out there. Despite this, they do better than a lot of arts and dojos out there. But they could be so much better. This art has so much potential. You look at guys like Noguchi, Oguri, etc and you can't help being amazed.

But the art was marketed in the west by Hayes, who really was not that experienced at that time. He did his best, but everyone makes mistakes. And some of these mistakes are the standard for what I see.

We need to be looking more at what Hatsumi and his senior teachers are doing. Nimravus once said that he planned on moving like the Japanese _eventually._ I said it then and I will say it again- to move like that at some point you need to start today.

Instead of building up new techniques, we need to look at the quality of everything we do from the ground up. We need to challenge what we believe about the most basic things we do. The basics are important, yes? And it is not the things we know we are bad at that we need to worry about, but rather the things we don't know are bad.

And yet people show up to Japan wanting to be be shown new stuff instead of having the stuff they think they know checked for accuracy.

Again, the stuff you see in the typical Bujinkan dojo is better than most stuff out there. But it is not all it could be. There are things that make it different from what it originally was. And a small change in direction at the beggining of a journey makes the final destination totally different.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 24, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I said it then and I will say it again- to move like that at some point you need to start today.


 
Start doing what? Doing things I'm still incapable of understanding, much less replicating? And if you *need* to start today, that would indicate that they're still training with the same degree of intensity they did when they themselves were in their 20's or 30's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the case.


----------



## Don Roley (Nov 24, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> And if you *need* to start today, that would indicate that they're still training with the same degree of intensity they did when they themselves were in their 20's or 30's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the case.



That is something that I had a conversation about. One of the older shihan of the Bujinkan said that because they had training in low stances, etc, when they started out they were able to move as well as they did now. They don't go as low as they used to, and they don't need to in order to generate power and such. But those that try to move like the senior Japanese do now without the training the way they did at the beggining are missing the point. And the shihan will show you how you should start moving if you really want to learn.

And this is why I think we should be looking more to what they say and making an honest effort to learn to be better. Not more techniques, but the stuff we need to improve. The basic stuff like ways of generating power and structural form. If we don't understand, we need to start asking. And just because we think we know, does not mean that we do.

We could sit around and tell ourselves how good we are. But does that really help us? If we tell ourselves that we have a lot to learn and that much of what we 'know' is wrong may encourage us to go out and fill these gaps we have. The best training I have gotten has not been in the form of praise, but in corrections of things I did not even know were bad habits.


----------



## Cryozombie (Nov 24, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Shouldn't that be _Japan_ elitists? Obviously he is talking about things I have been saying here and elsewhere.


 
JUST to be clear, Don, YOUR posts are not the ONLY ones I was referring to.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 24, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> That is something that I had a conversation about. One of the older shihan of the Bujinkan said that because they had training in low stances, etc, when they started out they were able to move as well as they did now. They don't go as low as they used to, and they don't need to in order to generate power and such. But those that try to move like the senior Japanese do now without the training the way they did at the beggining are missing the point. And the shihan will show you how you should start moving if you really want to learn.


 
I think we're talking past each other here. That is what I agree with, but it's exactly what a whole lot of people can't or don't want to see these days. They try to replicate what the Japanese do without understanding that there is a reason they can do the things they can do.


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## Henso (Dec 14, 2005)

First and foremost, I like to say that I am a novice, having only just passed the godan test at the Diakomyosai on 11/30/05. That having been said, it is my opinion that BBT does not suck, although I am of the opinion that some (western pratitioners) do not compare favourably with either westerners who came before them, and especially not the Japanese!

There are many in America (BBT practitioners) who do not know the sanshin no kata, koshi kihon sanpo, torite goho, ukemi, taihenjutsu, etc, who hold shodan rank and above. This (in my opinion) is due to politically correct sensibilities that force certain instructors to conclude that they must promote, or risk offending the sensibilties of their students. The intrusion of this aspect of western reletavism(politically correct decadence) on a Japanese martial (combat art) results in two irreconcilably opposite forces leading to the dilution of the art. 

P.S.

perhaps we should all post digital video of each of us practicing, so that we could determine the reality of the various popular assesments of global BBT standards. This would not only be instrustive to the reality of the assesments, but, would allow those who are self effacing to benefit from the collective knowledge....any takers??


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## Cryozombie (Dec 15, 2005)

Henso said:
			
		

> perhaps we should all post digital video of each of us practicing, so that we could determine the reality of the various popular assesments of global BBT standards. This would not only be instrustive to the reality of the assesments, but, would allow those who are self effacing to benefit from the collective knowledge....any takers??



I can see about 100 excuses poping up in response to this... "We dont want the frauds to see what we do, they could fool people!"

 MY only hangup, as I have considered posting video in the Members in Motion section, is that *I* know were I stand in my training, and i dont need a bunch of internet yahoos comparing me to, I dunno, say, Soke, when I am clearly so far from his skill level its pathetic.  But thats exactly what would happen, given the opportunity.  Id never hear the end of "Soke doesnt move like that.." "In japan we dont move like that" So its still an Idea in the back of my mind at the moment.


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## beauty_in_the_sai (Dec 30, 2005)

Well Tchno, if you are interested in TKD, I say go ahead and take it. I'm a taekwondoist but am dabbing in ninjutsu. I personally don't think either sucks. TKD's phenominal and ninjutsu/bujinkan is cool and has great weapons. Don't let people get you down. Lots of people say my core art of TKD sucks, but whoever is low enough to tear on your art sucks worse in my book.

Becky


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## Cryozombie (Jan 1, 2006)

beauty_in_the_sai said:
			
		

> Well Tchno, if you are interested in TKD, I say go ahead and take it. I'm a taekwondoist but am dabbing in ninjutsu. I personally don't think either sucks. TKD's phenominal and ninjutsu/bujinkan is cool and has great weapons. Don't let people get you down. Lots of people say my core art of TKD sucks, but whoever is low enough to tear on your art sucks worse in my book.
> 
> Becky



becky, 

TKD was the first art I ever studied, and honestly I cant see myself going back to it.  I was being a bit sarcastic by suggesting that, based on the number of McDojo's in the TKD arts that are more interested in money than producing quality artists.


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## beauty_in_the_sai (Jan 1, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> becky,
> 
> TKD was the first art I ever studied, and honestly I cant see myself going back to it.  I was being a bit sarcastic by suggesting that, based on the number of McDojo's in the TKD arts that are more interested in money than producing quality artists.



So much for getting one's art dissed. Not all TKD schools are McDojos. Mine wasn't. My instructor only charged $35 a month so one can hardly say he was in it for the money. I'd rather stay with my art in the midst of all this crap talk of "all TKD schools are McDojos". That's a false generalization, just like bujikan and karate gets.

Becky


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## Shogun (Jan 1, 2006)

I don't think Technopunk was trying to say that TKD wasn't good. I think what it sounded like he was saying is he has found what he needs in the Bujinkan, and has no interest in training another art. also, I think what he might of meant is even if he started training Taekwondo again, he would be hard pressed to find a good school where the instrcutor cares more about teaching a quality art, than making money. the amount a teacher charges has nothing to do with trying to make money or not. my Jiu Jitsu instrcutor charges up to $99 a month, depending on which program you take, and we have less that 12 people, while the Karate place down the road has 65 people and they charge 45 a month. but they are being fed mindless crap and paying out the *** for test fees, and getting their blackbelt in 9 months and crap like that. so there ya go.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 1, 2006)

Thank you Shogun, you said pretty much exactly what I meant.

I was not Dissing TKD, I was saying that my experiences with the art (and I will say the same of the 2 years of hapkido I took) left me wanting MORE. 

MY TaeKwan do experience was VERY "point" oriented, and we were never allowed to strike to the face, sweep, attack the legs etc.  I was once reprimanded for throwing a "mid" level kick and my opponent picked up his leg and blocked it with his thigh... and *I* did pushups for "kicking below the beltline"

Ahem.

No thanks.

I understand fully that this is NOT what ALL TaeKwon do schools are about... but I found something that suits me more... and I wouldnt go back to an art where the large majority of schools _in my area_ I have seen conduct themselves in this manner... or, put on the airs of doing so, as viewed by the 40 or so trophys in their windows.  

Tournaments, Trophys, points and "rules to the fight". This suits some people really well, and its what they want from the arts.  Its just not what *I* am looking for.
​


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## Don Roley (Jan 2, 2006)

Henso said:
			
		

> There are many in America (BBT practitioners) who do not know the sanshin no kata, koshi kihon sanpo, torite goho, ukemi, taihenjutsu, etc, who hold shodan rank and above. This (in my opinion) is due to politically correct sensibilities that force certain instructors to conclude that they must promote, or risk offending the sensibilties of their students. The intrusion of this aspect of western reletavism(politically correct decadence) on a Japanese martial (combat art) results in two irreconcilably opposite forces leading to the dilution of the art.



This is the type of thing I am talking about when I rant about the state of affairs in the Bujinkan. Sure, the Japanese don't suck. But if you are teaching and you don't know the Sanshin- you suck.

Worse, how many people _think_ they know the sanshin, but don't? My old teacher was not taught the sanshin by his teacher and later complained about it to us. He did not mention that he learned the sanshin from videos. I know he has taught a lot of people in the Bujinkan and there are a lot of people who are doing some really weird sanshin and other stuff because of him. And he is only one example.

We can get better. But the first thing we need to do is question if what we think we know is actually correct or not. Then we can look to Japan to get the correction we need. Instead of new stuff, we need to look at the old stuff with new eyes.


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## Henso (Jan 2, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I can see about 100 excuses poping up in response to this... "We dont want the frauds to see what we do, they could fool people!"
> 
> MY only hangup, as I have considered posting video in the Members in Motion section, is that *I* know were I stand in my training, and i dont need a bunch of internet yahoos comparing me to, I dunno, say, Soke, when I am clearly so far from his skill level its pathetic. But thats exactly what would happen, given the opportunity. Id never hear the end of "Soke doesnt move like that.." "In japan we dont move like that" So its still an Idea in the back of my mind at the moment.


 
Ah the hell with what people have to say, we're training to deal with punches, etc, aren't we? Since I liked your idea about posting in the Motion Forum, I took the plunge. I fear however, if I don't make it known here, the true wolves won't show up and I'll have deal deal with only polite compliments. 

Have fun, and lets see who else dares to follow suit.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=478029#post478029


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## Cryozombie (Jan 2, 2006)

Henso, 

cool, Ill check them out from home... I only have 1 video of me and its Tameshigiri, so not real exciting stuff... 

Although if anyone really wanted to see me "in action", you could always Purchase the Ed Martin Knife Defense Seminar DVD from Tengu6... Im on that.

And I am BADDDDD.


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## Henso (Jan 2, 2006)

I've seen you in action, then. Ed is my teacher and I have that video. I will review it when I have a moment.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 2, 2006)

Henso said:
			
		

> I've seen you in action, then. Ed is my teacher and I have that video. I will review it when I have a moment.


 
Im the blonde guy on the cover in the corner... Im also Ed's Uke for the Knife to the groin technique.

He is an amazing man, I envy you being able to train with him.


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## Seig (Jan 3, 2006)

Techno,
    I know where of you speak. You spent an evening training with Lamont and me, and my students. Lamont and I are from different systems. Did you hear anything negative at all? Don brings up some good points, if I tell you you are good when in fact you suck, you will not improve.
This gets into my personal teaching philosophy (sp?). I came up in the old days when negative reingforcement was the only thing you got from the teacher. Positive reinforcement was an occassional nod of the head, and a rare advancement in rank. Out of the 135 people in my original class when I started formal training, I am the only one still training and the only one that went past second black. Am I guilty of this behavior? To some of my students,  yes. I am guilty as hell of that with Tess, even though I don't mean to be. For the most part, I feel and practice that to progress, those in our society need positive and negative reinforcement. I am not saying they need them in equal amounts.

By the same token, there are always people that will tell you that if you are not doing what they are, thay you suck. They run rampant on these boards. That simply is not true. You simply cannot let the negativity of others get to you, it will suck the joy out of your own experience. Keep training, enjoy what you do, and progress with what is available to you. Obviously, you find some value in what you do, or you would not be doing it.


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## shesulsa (Jan 3, 2006)

And, Seig, if I may ask ... part of the instructor reinforcement you mentioned has a lot to do with a student's definition of self, no?  I know my teacher will sometimes completely ignore a student for up to a year to see what they're going to do on their own. They often leave, thinking they've fallen out of favor or the teaching sucks or whatever.  I've seen other instructors completely tear down nice techniques that a student's been working on diligently for a long time just to see how s/he reacts.

If 'you' (the figurative you, not you Seig) determine who 'you' are and recognize that all 'your' skills will always need work, negative reinforcement will ultimately have no effect other than the reminder of humility.  At least that's my gleaning at this point in my training.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that everyone's stuff needs work always and you really can't let that get you down, Techno.  Just work it when you can as perfect as possible because it's who YOU are, not who your instructor is or anyone else.

Does that make any sense to anyone else but me? :lol2:


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## Dale Seago (Jan 3, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Im the blonde guy on the cover in the corner... Im also Ed's Uke for the Knife to the groin technique.


 
Ouch.

BTW, I'm finally "out there" on a video as well:

http://www.modernknives.com/issue3.htm

They do have a single-issue subscription rate, and apart from seeing me and a couple of my students doing our thing (yes, they get showcased as well) you can get an idea of what's considered to be "the state of the art" in knife combatives outside the Bujinkan.

I liked the segment we filmed and sent in, at least until I saw it. Nagato & Noguchi, who had copies of my segment already when I showed up for Daikomyosai, didn't disagree with a couple of my own "weak points" I mentioned to them, but they professed to think it was a pretty decent presentation overall.


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## Kreth (Jan 3, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> BTW, I'm finally "out there" on a video as well:


I knew it! Dojo in SF, the kilt, and now this... Ever been to a Turkish bath, Dale?

(sorry, couldn't resist)



> I liked the segment we filmed and sent in, at least until I saw it. Nagato & Noguchi, who had copies of my segment already when I showed up for Daikomyosai, didn't disagree with a couple of my own "weak points" I mentioned to them, but they professed to think it was a pretty decent presentation overall.


Sounds cool, Dale. When is your home study course coming out? *ducks*


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## Don Roley (Jan 3, 2006)

Seig said:
			
		

> By the same token, there are always people that will tell you that if you are not doing what they are, thay you suck. They run rampant on these boards.



I think Martialtalk is one of the better boards for stopping that type of nonsense. I remember when I first got on the internet on AOL there was some moron who changed from TKD to Bujinkan and just _had_ to go over to the TKD section and tell them that they sucked. _Everybody_ from both sections wanted to find out who he really was a strangle him. Here, he would not last long.

There are people inside a system that stand up and say that we can do better. They should be listened to. But there are people who have some sort of issues that cause them to trash anything out of there own art. I figure they are projecting their own fears onto others. I may not study another art, but I feel secure enough to not need to tear them down to build up my own self image. There are entire boards set up that do nothing but trash people that don't train the way they do. I consider them pretty sad and pitiful myself.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> There are people inside a system that stand up and say that we can do better. They should be listened to.


 
But would you agree that there is a big difference between, "We can and should do better" and "His Movement is not a Perfect clone of *insert Japanese shihan here* Therefore He shouldnt be teaching"

I think that is a HUGE difference.


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## Kreth (Jan 3, 2006)

Some of the non-Japanese shihan shouldn't be teaching...

Did I say that out loud?


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## Don Roley (Jan 4, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Did I say that out loud?



No, I was throwing my voice.

None of the people I respect would use the term 'perfect' in any sentence regarding their taijutsu. The best we can do is try to improve as much as we can and we are all on different levels of that journey.

But there are some people who don't even _try_ to do what Hatsumi is teaching. Some of them don't know what things like the san shin is or learned it from videos.

There are people that take things from other arts and try to fill the holes in their taijutsu by passing it off as Bujinkan. 

If they don't know something, they should try to go to someone who knows and fill that gap. Until then, they should not teach that subject.

But that does not stop a lot of people.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> None of the people I respect would use the term 'perfect' in any sentence regarding their taijutsu. The best we can do is try to improve as much as we can and we are all on different levels of that journey.


 
None of them have used the word "Clone" either, but Im fairly confident if you read a lot of stuff in this forum you will see people who, tho they didnt use that "exact language" were saying exactly that.


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## Koinu (Jan 5, 2006)

The only people to worry about saying we suck are Soke and the Shihan.
If they are telling you, you suck you should, 1, feel proud that they take the time and effort to be interested enough in the fact that you do suck. 2, you should heed their advice because if you don't it would be quite silly and I am sure next time they would just smile tell you how good you are, pose for the cuddle me Elmo photo Op and not bother to tell you you suck ever again.
BTW most of us DO suck, some are willing to hear it others only like their ego stroked.


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## beau_safken (Jan 19, 2006)

Hmmm....Well I looked around for these posts on why this art sucks....but couldn't find any?  Am I just not really reading the fine print or just sorta confused.


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## Connovar (Jan 20, 2006)

I would suggest reading the three following threads: Bujinkan Is it for me, Being Fit, and Ninjitsu and the Marines. While obviously there is disagreement you will what some of the concerns are about the bujinkan. Read it and make up your own mind. Take care.


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## Kreth (Jan 20, 2006)

The you might want to check out this link and find out where most of the "concerns" come from...


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## Connovar (Jan 20, 2006)

Actually Kreth, my concerns began long before I did JKD or any MMA type activities. My concern began when I had multiple instances where a Godan level or above bujinkan members was unable to counter a full force and fulll speed attack that was already predetermined and pre agreed upon.At that point the light bulb started to go on...

Since then I dont give much credit to rumor, myth etc. I require any system I practice to show that the techniques and training are effective. The closer this testing is done to real life the better. Frankly 95% of the martial arts programs I would avoid because they dont pass the test. The bujinkan happens to be one of them although IMO its one of the worst. This is to bad because  really  has better potential than most  but its just unrealized and unmet.............


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## beau_safken (Jan 20, 2006)

Ahhh this must be something in relation to not only that first UFC match where the ninjitsu guy got demolished but some other stuff.  

Combat effectiveness is all down to the psychology of the end user my friend.  If they want the hurt you, they will.  If they don't want to hurt you, more than likely they won't.  The only reason I can think that a combat system of any sorts wouldn't give you the "If I can use it on the streets" idea, is all up to you.  I know some people that could use sport TKD on the streets, and I know some Silat players that couldn't think of using a knife.  I don't know if maybe the people you sparred with are adept at their systems or not.  Maybe they just weren't cheating enough .  Little bite to get out of chokes or thumb in the eye stuff.  

I'm also thinking that the reason 95% of the martial arts you refer to don't work for you is simply that.  They don't work for you.  If you want 100% combat effective martial arts, good luck my friend.  We don't live in a war torn society here in the states, so of course we wouldn't have a need for that level of practice.  Either way, I think my point is out there.


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## MJS (Jan 20, 2006)

While I do not train in BBT, this very same argument takes place in every art.  I see it alot in Kenpo as well.  My usual reply is, if you're happy with what you're doing, if you have no interest in said art, if your happy with your current org., why worry how someone else is training.

Connovar, do you currently train in BBT?  If you did at one time, and no longer do, or if you never have, regardless of what the case is, why worry about it?  If you're not happy with it, that is your choice, but there certainly is no need to bash an art or someone because of a choice that they make.

Just my .02

Mike


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## Monadnock (Jan 20, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I require any system I practice to show that the techniques and training are effective. The closer this testing is done to real life the better. Frankly 95% of the martial arts programs I would avoid because they dont pass the test. The bujinkan happens to be one of them although IMO its one of the worst. This is to bad because really has better potential than most but its just unrealized and unmet.............


 
Do you want the art to change, or the way in which it is practiced?

I wouldn't change anything I have seen kata or technique-wise. Maybe you just ran into guys who don't train they way you think you need to train.:idunno:


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## Kreth (Jan 20, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Actually Kreth, my concerns began long before I did JKD or any MMA type activities. My concern began when I had multiple instances where a Godan level or above bujinkan members was unable to counter a full force and fulll speed attack that was already predetermined and pre agreed upon.At that point the light bulb started to go on...


That was your experience. I've seen high-level blackbelts in the Bujinkan (and many other systems) who would get demolished in a real situation. But I've also seen many Bujinkan practitioners with a high degree of effective skill, so I blame the student, not the system.



> The bujinkan happens to be one of them although IMO its one of the worst. This is to bad because really has better potential than most but its just unrealized and unmet.............


Again, your opinion/experience. Others have had a different experience. As has been suggested before, your continual bashing of the Bujinkan is tiresome. Perhaps you'd be happier participating in another area of MT.


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## Monadnock (Jan 20, 2006)

One more thing. The Bujinkan is international in size, so wide brush statements about it don't seem fitting unless you've been around the world a few times...


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## Connovar (Jan 20, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Ahhh this must be something in relation to not only that first UFC match where the ninjitsu guy got demolished but some other stuff.
> 
> Combat effectiveness is all down to the psychology of the end user my friend. If they want the hurt you, they will. If they don't want to hurt you, more than likely they won't. The only reason I can think that a combat system of any sorts wouldn't give you the "If I can use it on the streets" idea, is all up to you. I know some people that could use sport TKD on the streets, and I know some Silat players that couldn't think of using a knife. I don't know if maybe the people you sparred with are adept at their systems or not. Maybe they just weren't cheating enough . Little bite to get out of chokes or thumb in the eye stuff.
> 
> I'm also thinking that the reason 95% of the martial arts you refer to don't work for you is simply that. They don't work for you. If you want 100% combat effective martial arts, good luck my friend. We don't live in a war torn society here in the states, so of course we wouldn't have a need for that level of practice. Either way, I think my point is out there.


 
Actually that Ninja guy actually won the match He was a substitute after the individual who had won the quarter final and semifinal match was injured and unable to continue. I believe the "ninja guy" was one of Robert Bussey's guys if I remember correctly. He didnt use any taijitsu that I could see in the match and was defeated in follow up matches.

No art or system is 100 effective. I said 95 of the systems IMO dont appropriately train people for realistic combat. That is fine as long as you dont advertise yourselves as teaching self defense. This is what gets soccor moms and others killed. Using the wrong tool for the wrong job. Training in art for just sport, exercise or hobby is perfectly fine. My only quibble is when one is talking self defense.


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## Monadnock (Jan 20, 2006)

I wouldn't equate self defense to combat. But that's probably just semantics....well, maybe not.


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## Connovar (Jan 20, 2006)

Monadnock said:
			
		

> One more thing. The Bujinkan is international in size, so wide brush statements about it don't seem fitting unless you've been around the world a few times...


 
Actually I worked internationally for 8-10 years throughout Europe and Japan and have trained with bujinkan people whose home base of training is in those geographic locations. Are you saying that those in Africa or South America may be different?

Bujinkan has some good techniques as I have previously stated. A lot of the ineffective and outdated ones need to culled out or relegated to the museum IMO. Also the training needs some dramatic changes. The ranking system is way out of control with people who have only 25-30 years experience being given ranks of 15th Dan or higher which is just plain silly in my book.

However if the bujinkan wants to  withdraw claims that it realisically trains people for combat or self defense then I wouldnt have any objections. Then it just an art and art is in the eyes of the beholder.


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## Monadnock (Jan 20, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> Actually I worked internationally for 8-10 years throughout Europe and Japan and have trained with bujinkan people whose home base of training is in those geographic locations. Are you saying that those in Africa or South America may be different?


 
I haven't trained in any location outside of the US, nevermind internationally, so I won't make sweeping comments. That's all I was getting at.

WINjutsu.com may have some international schools listed in those areas if you are really interested. I'm guessing that this goes beyond unsatisfactory techniques for you at this point though.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 20, 2006)

Last time I checked, in the Bujinkan no technique was practiced for the sole purpose of rote memorization. There is a point to it all...unless one is satisfied of course.


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## beau_safken (Jan 20, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> However if the bujinkan wants to  withdraw claims that it realisically trains people for combat or self defense then I wouldnt have any objections. Then it just an art and art is in the eyes of the beholder.



Well I mean its kinda along the same lines as saying all people that practice Krav Maga are taking womans self defense.  Just because one group has seen a market for their product in one area doesnt mean it applies to all of that art.  I look at it like this my friend.  Out of 10 schools, 7 will be just enough to the average person's attention, 2 of those are so bad even the average isnt looking and 1 is worth looking at.  Those could all be one style or multiple styles...but its all about the flavor.  Some are just that...a business and some are their to make sure the art doesnt die off.  

So what if maybe some of the Bujinkan schools advertise that it trains people for combat.  Don't look for a reason to be offended...just say "Well it might be good for someone else."  I would never talk about my martial arts school more than was necessary, as I knew what it was.  If someone was interested I would just ask them to call my Guru and let him know if they wanted to see a class.  No amount of what I can say will change someone or lead someone to a decision.  Martial arts are not really a product or service in the literal sense.  Its as you say, all in the eye of the beholder.  

I think there have been more than enough references to individual situations about how this or that wasnt combat ready....but honestly man...Let them walk their own path.  I always felt good knowing that I am confident in myself not just because of my martial arts training.  Mostly because in the end, if comes down to the person's ability to pull the trigger in a sense.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 20, 2006)

I could be way off base here but dose not the Bujinkan still practice many o their techniques and still teach much of what they do to preserve their history,  If that is the cas then if you dont want to learn those aspects of the art then don't study Bujinkan. 
If you want to change the way Bujinkan is taught then stay in it long enough to become the GM or go out and buy yourslef a skokeship and have way teach something (by changeing it) and call it something close to bujinkan ( like my way of buju)


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## Connovar (Jan 20, 2006)

The problem is that most people coming off the street looking for self-defense are pretty much clueless. A lot of MA instructors are also clueless. Plus there is the financial pressure to pull students into schools. So people get signed up. They learn some fancy moves against people that dont resist and they feel safe. Its like giving someone a parachute and telling them its there to jump out of a plane, when in reality the chute is just a bunch of rags.

KM is actually one of those 5% whose curriculum is good for self defense. Not perfect but generally inclusive of what is needed. (Bye the way I dont own or teach or even practice KM so this isnt an advertisement)

Even my own favorite system I would not recommend as a primary system for self defense. BJJ is great on the ground, but thats not where you want to be in the street or in combat. It also doesnt utilize striking which is so critical for combat. Its a usefull supplement but on its own its not enough.

MMA has the deficiences in that it doesnt address fighting weapons. It also is most usefull if you are more athletically inclined which many people arent. 

The bujinkan has grappling. It has striking. It even offers some hand to weapons training. However much of the hand to weapons training is against ancient weapons so the value is decreased. As I mentioned before the methods of training are deficient as compared to MMA and BJJ methhods IMO. 

So I guess I am tough on everyone, but I hate to see people mislead on (even if unintentionally) when it comes to defending one self or ones family. Anyway enough of this, I think I have said my piece and its time to let the dust settle.


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## Don Roley (Jan 20, 2006)

Connovar said:
			
		

> I require any system I practice to show that the techniques and training are effective. The closer this testing is done to real life the better.



But Bujinkan has been tested- in real situations and not competitions. In my role as a traslator for Hiroshi Nagase, I have had several situations where people have used me to translate their thanks to him for teaching things that later helped them survive bad situations.

One of the problems I have with things like _competitions_ is that people think that they are somehow accurate simulations of combat. But I already have talked about how things are different in the following post.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=434473#post434473

A situation where two people are trying to _win_ is not close to reality at all. In a real situation there is usually an attacker, or several and the other side is just trying to survive. Peytonn Quinn has come up with armored assailant scenario training to an advanced degree that does a much better job IMO, but it discards the idea that someone has to _win_ as well as a lot of the things you see in sport- type competition. If you get tangled up with one attacker, another might jump in and nail you from behind. If you take someone to the ground, they may pull a hidden knife. And so on.

The whole idea that you know a fight is coming and you know that there will only be one person and no weapons is a completly wrong way to test if something is good for the street or not. You do that for a long time on a frequent basis and you train yourself to deal with situations as if that was the case.

Hatsumi used to do randori- which is not the same as competition since winning may not be part of the plan. As has been said, this art is not about winning or losing, but of _surviving._ The problem is that many of his foreign students who only visited him started developing bad habits. I have seen this happen. At times Hatsumi has had people get up in front of the class and demonstrate techniques. Sometimes he tells one side to do something and the other to try to something that counters it with neither side assured of being able to pull it off. I think there are some examples of this on the Daikomyosai tapes involving sword. They should be looked at for an example. In many cases, people using soft, lightweight swords are so eager to "win" the scenario while in front of Hatsumi that they use these swords like the feather- weight things they are for more speed rather than the more slow, but grounded method that would be the only way you could do something with a real sword.

That is not the only thing, just the most demonstratable and availible example. People leave themselves open to attacks that are forbidden due to safety rules. They _train themselves to leave open things_ that can't be taken advantage of in the dojo, but will be taken advantage of on the street.

But of course they "win" in a very demonstratable manner. Having done that a few times myself, I can attest to the fact that it does feel good and does stroke the ego quite a bit. Some people do get rather attached to that ego boost and work, consciously or unconsciously, at getting better at sparring more than street combat. And since they drop things that can't be used in sparring, they do better than those who spread themselves thinner. Just last night we were working on using various things around us to our advantage in fight. How the heck do you introduce that into a competition? It would be worthless training for someone getting ready for the vale tuado and the like.

I do like to test myself in as many ways as possible. I recently gave a friend in my dojo a rubber knife and asked him to try his best to stick me with it. But unless it is a real, violent situation where someone could get hurt or dead, it is only a _simulation_ of combat and does not count in determining the art's effectiveness.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 20, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I could be way off base here but dose not the Bujinkan still practice many o their techniques and still teach much of what they do to preserve their history, If that is the cas then if you dont want to learn those aspects of the art then don't study Bujinkan.


 
It's all about creating attributes and familiarizing yourself with principles. Boxers can take one punch in order to give two in return, that is not an option you want to rely on if weapons, especially bladed ones, are involved. People accustomed to weapons fighting avoid getting too tangled up in one opponent, they stay away from conflicts as much as possible because the consequences may be dire, they always pay attention to the weapon they can't see etc etc etc...see what I'm saying?

One of my best training memories was once during the summer of 2004 when we were practicing bojutsu outdoors, and I had a hard time coordinating a specific attack combo. My teacher then changed the movement a little and had us do that for a while instead (I forget the exact details of what we were doing, but it was some sort of a low staff swing to the knees), and afterwards I found myself not only able to perform the first motion, but I also had learned a way of increasing my number of attacks per shift of body weight.:ultracool


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## MrFunnieman (Jan 22, 2006)

This thread has raised several questions for me and has also prompted several thoughts and after being promted by the computer that I haven't posted for a while, I thought "why not".  



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> Do I need to spend 6 months learning to "properly grip" a sword before I ever swing it...? Does my sanshin have to be flawless before I ever try Shito? Do I have to do Kihon Happo like a 15th dan before I should attempt to use it to save my life? Should I fall on my arms and palms and break my wrists if I should trip becuase my Ukemi is not flawless?


 
I know that someone (can't find the exact post) said they are studying BBT to survive a situation, not to win or lose.  In other posts I have also heard that there are principles behind the kata and that is what needs to understood because it is impossible to have a kata for every conceivable attack.  I have also read that there are limits on how you can train because certain types of training will limit how you respond when attacked in real life.

The words combat, self-defense, self-preservation, use of force and art thrown around.

Personally, my motivations for studying martial arts have changed.  I recently took time to read several links on Marc "Animal" MacYoung's website and I found the information presented insightful and I hope to use it to keep my eyes open to the "weaknesses" of martial arts.  MacYoung does a good job of defining combat, fighting, assault, self-defense and what kind of "defensive" behavior or reaction can land you in jail for assault, manslaughter, or murder.  After reading his website I questioned what I was learning and what I could practically use if I were jumped at night by a would be "bad guy".  My initial reason for studying BBT was for "survival" and my image of the art was painted by Stephen Hayes.  I have trained with him and I feel confident that I know some self-defense.  I don't want that anymore and after monitering the ninjutsu threads on MT I don't think I want to ever train in BBT, for various reasons.  I don't want to train with Stephen Hayes either.  Aikido is more my speed.

When I read the line I quoted from Technopunk, I wondered if historically samurai or ninja spent years perfecting a sword grip before they went into battle?  Where the techniques developed in war time or a peacful era? Have we muddled the BBTwe know today with later ideals more in alignment with concepts closer to aesthetics or zen philospohy. If I am in an art that stresses survival and adaptability under pressure I am not sure why it is important to be able to "perfectly" hold a sword.  Originally the techniques were used to get through battle.  I am sure the techniques were pragmatic in nature.  Flashforward to 2006- I have never been threatened by a sword or required to use one to defend my life.

Enter martial "art".  Art is individualized.  I say to Namravus "Forget trying to move like a Japanese".  It will never happen.  I hope I have inferred correctly that you are of western decent.  You will always move like Nimravus.  Hatsumi moves like Hatsumi.  Takamatsu moved uniquely and I move like Mrfunnieman.  Can't escape myself.  Everyone talks about making the martial art their own and then compares themself to the head of their lineage or that they are not doing "right".  Is there room for personal improvement? Yes.  Do I want to move more smoothly or subtly? Sure.  Western Culture is different than Eastern Culture.  The Japanese have taken things from China and made them their own, surely it's okay for Americans to take Japanese things and Americanize them?  It's natural phenomenon.  

There was more I wanted to sa, but I have somewhere I need to be in five minutes and my post is already long.  To sum things up...

Technopunk:  try and check out www.nononsenseselfdefense.com.  I found it informative and insightful.  Think about what you want from martial arts.  Perfection of self, self-defense, cool moves you can never use on people at full speed without going to jail, whatever.  Listen to constructive criticism, politely accept compliments, and do what you love doing and forget about the naysayers.

Mrfunnieman


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 22, 2006)

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Personally, my motivations for studying martial arts have changed. I recently took time to read several links on Marc "Animal" MacYoung's website and I found the information presented insightful and I hope to use it to keep my eyes open to the "weaknesses" of martial arts. MacYoung does a good job of defining combat, fighting, assault, self-defense and what kind of "defensive" behavior or reaction can land you in jail for assault, manslaughter, or murder.


 
:cheers:



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> When I read the line I quoted from Technopunk, I wondered if historically samurai or ninja spent years perfecting a sword grip before they went into battle?


 
Zen quote #1: "even on a stone - three years."



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Where the techniques developed in war time or a peacful era?


 
Both.



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> If I am in an art that stresses survival and adaptability under pressure I am not sure why it is important to be able to "perfectly" hold a sword.


 
Zen quote #2: "Zen is 7, ken is 3."



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Originally the techniques were used to get through battle. I am sure the techniques were pragmatic in nature. Flashforward to 2006- I have never been threatened by a sword or required to use one to defend my life.


 
I know of people who have, machetes etc. are still used throughout the world. You might also want to read my last post in this thread.



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Enter martial "art". Art is individualized. I say to Namravus "Forget trying to move like a Japanese". It will never happen. I hope I have inferred correctly that you are of western decent.


 
Well, I do have some South American Indian blood in me, but mostly you are correct...though I'd say that I probably move like a mixture of four different people at least.



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> The Japanese have taken things from China and made them their own, surely it's okay for Americans to take Japanese things and Americanize them? It's natural phenomenon.


 
Assuming you take training in the Bujinkan for granted, sure.


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## beau_safken (Jan 22, 2006)

Good show mrfunnyman.  

I also agree completely that questioning your martial art for your own usage is very important.  I know for me BJJ would just not work for me...I'm not into a martial art for the pure sense of the "fight".  I'm the type that likes to know I have it if I need it.  Plus working out is also a nice plus.  

One person's temple is another's hell....


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## MrFunnieman (Jan 22, 2006)

I see there is a need to further explain myself. 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrFunnieman*
> _Where the techniques developed in war time or a peacful era?_
> 
> ...


 
My intention for this question was to address the issue of principles or techniques developed out of necessity during wartime versus techniques principles/ concepts developed _*theoretically*_ during more peacful eras. 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrFunnieman*
> _When I read the line I quoted from Technopunk, I wondered if historically samurai or ninja spent years perfecting a sword grip before they went into battle?_
> 
> ...


 
Not into Zen or Koans.  Makes no sense.  My musing over this subject is more economic.  To have decades invested in "proper" techniques to be slain quickly by a more competent opponent would make war very costly.  I am not well versed in Japanese History, but I do know that periods of peace were very short in feudal Japan.  I am sure the samurai turnover rate was very high- add on top of that- life expectantcy rates pre-twentieth century.  How long did the forefathers of BBT really get to train?  Into their fifties, sixties?



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrFunnieman*
> _Originally the techniques were used to get through battle. I am sure the techniques were pragmatic in nature. Flashforward to 2006- I have never been threatened by a sword or required to use one to defend my life._
> 
> ...


 
Let me reiterate '"_*I*_" have never been threatened by a sword or required to use one to denfend my life*'  For me- personally- *
I did not mean to insinuate that sword techniques are not important.  Let me clarify... It would take years to learn how to hold a sword properly...?  Is the handle of a 15th or 16th century tachi akin to a 21st century machete?  Is the grip the same?  What about blade size and shape?  Do the physics behind the weight, shape, and steel temper effect the performance or characteristics of the weapon?  I am certain you will agree that we are learning a principle or concept behind a kata, so that it can be adapted to various situations.  Therefore, why again is it *so *improtant to emulate perfectly what is happening in Japan.  Westerners have poor technique, right?  But in reality, technique isn't important, what is important is the principle behind the technique.  

I hate to burst any bubbles, but the Japanese do not corner the market on effective martial arts.  There is a set limit to the ways a joint can be distorted before it is dislocated or broken. Those concepts have been developed by other cultures throughout the world.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrFunnieman*
> _Enter martial "art". Art is individualized. I say to Namravus "Forget trying to move like a Japanese". It will never happen. I hope I have inferred correctly that you are of western decent._
> 
> ...


 
Again clarification required.  This was not an implication that race or cultural heritage affects movement.  People born and raised in Japan have a unique body language.  The same applies to every culture throughout the world.  

In college I used to have roommates that were born and raised in India.  In highschool I had friends whose families were from India, but they were born and raised in America. Overtime as I met other Indians I was able to discern where they were born and raised because of the unique body language of their home culture.  I am sure it is equally easy to spot an American in Paris, without that person saying a word.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MrFunnieman*
> _The Japanese have taken things from China and made them their own, surely it's okay for Americans to take Japanese things and Americanize them? It's natural phenomenon._
> 
> ...


 
I try not to assume much. Like Hatsumi, in his benevolent and compassionate nature, is telling us "gyjin" (sp?) the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  It makes an "***" out of "u" and "me" 
As always Nimravus, it has been fun.

MrFunnieman


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 22, 2006)

MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> My intention for this question was to address the issue of principles or techniques developed out of necessity during wartime versus techniques principles/ concepts developed _*theoretically*_ during more peacful eras.


 
If practicality has been retained up to this day within the nine schools I see no evidence that they would have stagnated all too much during the Edo era. 



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Not into Zen or Koans. Makes no sense.


 
Sure it does, but you have to think for yourself. "This stuff cannot be taught. It has to be discovered for yourself." 



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> To have decades invested in "proper" techniques to be slain quickly by a more competent opponent would make war very costly.


 
Well, that would explain the odd lineage of Togakure ryu...:uhyeah: 



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> I am not well versed in Japanese History, but I do know that periods of peace were very short in feudal Japan. I am sure the samurai turnover rate was very high- add on top of that- life expectantcy rates pre-twentieth century. How long did the forefathers of BBT really get to train? Into their fifties, sixties?


 
Don't forget that they trained with a degree of intensity pretty much unheard of these days.




			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> I did not mean to insinuate that sword techniques are not important. Let me clarify... It would take years to learn how to hold a sword properly...? Is the handle of a 15th or 16th century tachi akin to a 21st century machete? Is the grip the same? What about blade size and shape? Do the physics behind the weight, shape, and steel temper effect the performance or characteristics of the weapon?


 
It never occurred to you that one may train with both, did it?




			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> I am certain you will agree that we are learning a principle or concept behind a kata, so that it can be adapted to various situations. Therefore, why again is it *so *improtant to emulate perfectly what is happening in Japan.


 
"Perfectly" is a strong word, don't you think? Also, whom are you talking about? Me or someone with the "ugly" patch?




			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Westerners have poor technique, right? But in reality, technique isn't important, what is important is the principle behind the technique.


 
Initially technique IS important. Shu ha ri, anyone...?





			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> I hate to burst any bubbles, but the Japanese do not corner the market on effective martial arts. There is a set limit to the ways a joint can be distorted before it is dislocated or broken. Those concepts have been developed by other cultures throughout the world.


 
Yes, and the minute you put on a black gi you make the choice to do it the Japanese way. If you find that doesn't suit you the door is always open.





			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> Again clarification required. This was not an implication that race or cultural heritage affects movement. People born and raised in Japan have a unique body language. The same applies to every culture throughout the world.


 
A lot of the shihan who don't speak Japanese do however tend to be able to "listen" with their bodies in order to understand what the Japanese are doing. It seems to be working alright for some of them at least.


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## MrFunnieman (Jan 23, 2006)

"Uncle!", "Uncle!" I give. Your right. I bow to your rapier wit Nimravus.:wah:  

To answer Technopunk 





> So why do we do it?
> 
> And, alternatly, if what we are learning "works" for us... if it keeps us alive, helps us get home after a confrontation, keeps our arms from getting broken when we slip on the ice and fall, alerts us to danger and helps us avoid it, and many other examples I can think of...
> 
> Do we really suck? Or is what we are doing just... not the same or not as good as the people we are being compared to?


 
I started because of the super human appeal. Ninjas who could survive and adapt and had a martial system that covered all types of scenarios.  Why do I train now?  Not for self-defense.  More for flexiblity (mental and physical) and I hope to use martial arts -coupled with other disciplines- as a vehicle for self-actualization.  I am not worried about being jumped.  Why? Because I don't go to places where I elevate my chances of being attacked.  Haven't walked down a dark alley by myself, looking lost and as an easy victim in years.  I work towards not being rude or impolite to people and I use courtesy as much as possible.  I believe these actions reduce the possibility of upsetting someone to the point of physical aggression.  Allow me to share one of my most cherished resources and points of reference:  The movie Road House.

*Dalton*: All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One, never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected. Two, take it outside. Never start anything inside the bar unless it's absolutely necessary. And three, be nice. 

 If somebody gets in your face and calls you a **********, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice. I want you to remember that it's a job. It's nothing personal. 

*Dalton*: I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice. 

*Steve*: Being called a ********** isn't personal? 
*Dalton*: No. It's two nouns combined to elicit a prescribed response. 
*Steve*: What if somebody callas my mama a whore? 
*Dalton*: Is she? 


Why everyone else is doing it I don't know.  I plan on training with the most qualified instructors that are available to me.  I guarantee they most likely will not be Japanese, but may travel to Japan from time to time.  Don Roley is luck to be so near the source.  It is not my priority to train in Japan or with Hatsumi.  It obviously is a priority for others.  Cool.  I am glad there are others who are so serious about their training.  I don't feel my training is lacking, but it is not BBT either.  It's an X-kan.



> Do we really suck? Or is what we are doing just... not the same or not as good as the people we are being compared to?


 
It would be great if all the Westerners in Japan would take a break and show the rest of us barbarians across the pond how to do it properly.  It would be the humanitarian thing to do.

Mrfunnieman


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 23, 2006)

Funny..."Road House" happens to be my grandmother's favorite flick, that didn't stop her from getting shot at by some psycho years ago while riding in a cab.



			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> I don't feel my training is lacking, but it is not BBT either. It's an X-kan.


 


			
				MrFunnieman said:
			
		

> It would be great if all the Westerners in Japan would take a break and show the rest of us barbarians across the pond how to do it properly. It would be the humanitarian thing to do.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 23, 2006)

connovar said:
			
		

> However much of the hand to weapons training is against ancient weapons so the value is decreased.


There are many more lessons to be learned by training with a sword or ancient weapons than what is visible to the eye.  I won't elaborate about these lessons as I am still learning them, but I will encourage people to keep training with them.  After all this is the martial art of "distance".



			
				Mrfunnieman said:
			
		

> If I am in an art that stresses survival and adaptability under pressure *I am not sure why it is important to be able to "perfectly" hold a sword.*


Don't stop training yet, keep training and the answers will come to you.

Training with ancient weapons is not about learning how to cut with a sword to survive a confrontation on the street.  It really doesn't matter if it is a sword, machete, baseball bat, hanbo, 2x4, broom stick, hocky stick, etc.  It isn't about cutting, slicing, hacking, whacking, or whatever.  There are principles involved that are the REAL lessons to be discovered.



			
				tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I could be way off base here but dose not the Bujinkan still practice many o their techniques and still teach much of what they do to preserve their history, If that is the cas then if you dont want to learn those aspects of the art then don't study Bujinkan.


I would disagree!  Throughout my fairly short amount of training (relative to many), we are not encouraged to be collectors of kata and techniques.  It isn't as much about preserving history but about learning and discovering.



			
				nimravus said:
			
		

> Sure it does, but you have to think for yourself. "This stuff cannot be taught. It has to be discovered for yourself."


Great!  So true!  I have to remember that one!


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## arnisador (Jan 23, 2006)

Road House is showing on one of the movie channels this month. I've set up to tape it for my son. Fun stuff!


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 23, 2006)

> we are not encouraged to be collectors of kata and techniques. It isn't as much about preserving history but about learning and discovering.


 
thank you I understand a little better now


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## rutherford (Jan 23, 2006)

Free VHS copy of Roadhouse for anybody who wants one.  But, I've only got 1, you see.

I'm getting rid of most of my tapes by just setting them up free at the local store.


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