# discouraged by the TKD community



## J. Pickard (Sep 13, 2021)

Lately I have been feeling very discouraged and ashamed to say I train in TKD as well as calling what my school teaches Taekwondo. My lineage is mostly Chung Do Kwan and followed into Kukki TKD under the late Ed Sell. When I inherited my dojang from my instructor a few years ago we were with the US CDKA. I made the choice to leave for what I considered to be dishonest and cult like behavior as well as a very steep decline in quality control. Not caring about gaining new rank I decided to remain independent but had a few students asking about certification from Kukkiwon or ITF for when they left for college just in case their rank was questioned (spoiler, it wasn't). Looking into how to go about joining either one and through reading a lot of posts on this forum as well as others I have discovered a lot of things I would consider negative about both organizations and the state of the TKD community as a whole; ITF is very much a cult of personality bordering on full on worship of Gen. Choi and Kukkiwon seems to care more about the money in your wallet and pushing a nationalistic message than anything else. I started training to learn practical martial arts and my original instructor was taught TKD as a practical martial art. My philosophy in training mostly comes from a letter to my instructor from Richard Chun. In it he says "Train as you have been taught, but keep an open mind. Just like in life, there are no absolutes in Taekwondo". So imagine my surprise when I begin to make connections (some here on MT) and begin to network within ITF and Kukkiwon and nobody gives a damn about exploring Taekwondo as an effective martial art. Instead I am bombarded with comments from ITF about how if it isn't how Gen. Choi taught it then it's wrong and if it doesn't work for you that way then you need to train harder. Kukkiwon keeps telling me about all of the books/dvds I need to buy and seminars I need to attend, telling me that the old KKW textbook is wrong in every way and the only way I can learn "real" Kukki TKD is by buying the newest version; a sentiment I have seen repeated on this forum a few times. Everyone is focused on doing it HOW either organization says it should be done and never explore the WHY it is done that way or even looking to see if there is another way equally as good or better. There is no room for discourse, there is no room for exploration of the art to try to make it practical. Why, oh why, is Taekwondo even considered a martial art at this point? ITF is so dogmatic that I'm surprised it doesn't have tax exempt status in the US and Kukki TKD is unrecognizable as a form of effective combat but damn if they don't know how to sell ******** (what the hell even is "taekwondo dance"?). Every time I drive past a daycare center I wonder how many of the kids in there are Kukkiwon black belts and when I see a faith healer I wonder if he learned his moves from C.K. Choi or his father. The only time I see genuine interest in Taekwondo as an actual martial art is from old timers (meant in the most respectable sense) that started training in the early days of either organization and/or instructors that have since gone independent. I have seen more posts on this forum about how another art has made an individual's TKD more practical in a fight and never vise versa. How did the two major governing bodies of a once great martial art come to care about every aspect of taekwondo EXCEPT for the martial art part of it? 

And before you go into the "tHerE Is MoRe To MaRtiAL aRts ThAn FiGhTing", if you can't fight with it in the most minimal of aspects then it's not a martial art (it's literally in the name). If you only train for the non combat aspects (better focus, discipline, balance, etc.) then what you are doing is tantamount to LITERALLY ANY OTHER PHYSICAL ACTIVITY THAT USES THE BODY AS THE VEHICLE FOR ACHIEVEMENT. Call it what it is, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and you do TKD you might say it's a rooster.


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2021)

Do clackledockling


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## Cynik75 (Sep 14, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> How did the two major governing bodies of a once great martial art come to care about every aspect of taekwondo EXCEPT for the martial art part of it?


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 14, 2021)

I don't speak for all or any of the ITFs.   Certainly not for KKW. However, However, I understand that if you want to join and accurately represent the system they follow, then you need to teach perform and understand  that system accurately. This is " quality control"     Otherwise you return to the fractured systems of yesteryear where everyone does different stuff and the rt is no longer "portable."   Having said that, knowing numerous people in various ITFs and having been (No Longer) an ITF member for  38 years, while accurately representing the system is required I have never heard anyone say you can't do other stuff as well.   So, if "An effective Martial Art" is your goal, teach whatever the heck you feel that is in addition to whatever the standardized requirements are.


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## dvcochran (Sep 14, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Lately I have been feeling very discouraged and ashamed to say I train in TKD as well as calling what my school teaches Taekwondo. My lineage is mostly Chung Do Kwan and followed into Kukki TKD under the late Ed Sell. When I inherited my dojang from my instructor a few years ago we were with the US CDKA. I made the choice to leave for what I considered to be dishonest and cult like behavior as well as a very steep decline in quality control. Not caring about gaining new rank I decided to remain independent but had a few students asking about certification from Kukkiwon or ITF for when they left for college just in case their rank was questioned (spoiler, it wasn't). Looking into how to go about joining either one and through reading a lot of posts on this forum as well as others I have discovered a lot of things I would consider negative about both organizations and the state of the TKD community as a whole; ITF is very much a cult of personality bordering on full on worship of Gen. Choi and Kukkiwon seems to care more about the money in your wallet and pushing a nationalistic message than anything else. I started training to learn practical martial arts and my original instructor was taught TKD as a practical martial art. My philosophy in training mostly comes from a letter to my instructor from Richard Chun. In it he says "Train as you have been taught, but keep an open mind. Just like in life, there are no absolutes in Taekwondo". So imagine my surprise when I begin to make connections (some here on MT) and begin to network within ITF and Kukkiwon and nobody gives a damn about exploring Taekwondo as an effective martial art. Instead I am bombarded with comments from ITF about how if it isn't how Gen. Choi taught it then it's wrong and if it doesn't work for you that way then you need to train harder. Kukkiwon keeps telling me about all of the books/dvds I need to buy and seminars I need to attend, telling me that the old KKW textbook is wrong in every way and the only way I can learn "real" Kukki TKD is by buying the newest version; a sentiment I have seen repeated on this forum a few times. Everyone is focused on doing it HOW either organization says it should be done and never explore the WHY it is done that way or even looking to see if there is another way equally as good or better. There is no room for discourse, there is no room for exploration of the art to try to make it practical. Why, oh why, is Taekwondo even considered a martial art at this point? ITF is so dogmatic that I'm surprised it doesn't have tax exempt status in the US and Kukki TKD is unrecognizable as a form of effective combat but damn if they don't know how to sell ******** (what the hell even is "taekwondo dance"?). Every time I drive past a daycare center I wonder how many of the kids in there are Kukkiwon black belts and when I see a faith healer I wonder if he learned his moves from C.K. Choi or his father. The only time I see genuine interest in Taekwondo as an actual martial art is from old timers (meant in the most respectable sense) that started training in the early days of either organization and/or instructors that have since gone independent. I have seen more posts on this forum about how another art has made an individual's TKD more practical in a fight and never vise versa. How did the two major governing bodies of a once great martial art come to care about every aspect of taekwondo EXCEPT for the martial art part of it?
> 
> And before you go into the "tHerE Is MoRe To MaRtiAL aRts ThAn FiGhTing", if you can't fight with it in the most minimal of aspects then it's not a martial art (it's literally in the name). If you only train for the non combat aspects (better focus, discipline, balance, etc.) then what you are doing is tantamount to LITERALLY ANY OTHER PHYSICAL ACTIVITY THAT USES THE BODY AS THE VEHICLE FOR ACHIEVEMENT. Call it what it is, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and you do TKD you might say it's a rooster.


Have you looked at Moo Duk Kwan TKD?
It is our base style. We crossover into WT/Kukki style for competition and upper belt progression but the training is very different. 
That said, I feel there is depth in each system you may be missing by only looking at them from a face value, academic perspective. However, I agree Kukki is not very deep at all.


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 14, 2021)

So, I wear the name Taekwondo, but our training and curriculum look more Japanese/Okinawan Karate than they do "modern" Taekwondo.  As DVCochran, I also train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, and I guess I represent a version of Taekwondo that fractured from the modernization movement in the 1960's.  

There was a time, when I had seriously considered KKW certification, but I later came to the conclusion that the KKW does not represent the "version" of TKD that I teach and practice.  Therefore, it provided little benefit for me.  

At this point in my journey, I'm more concerned with the training, and less concerned about what organization I belong to.  I would probably feel different if there was an organization that perfectly represented what I do, but there isn't.  I do belong to an organization that helps to promote these types of "traditional" schools, but it's more of a path for rank promotion and preservation of the heritage of the original kwan practitioners in the U.S.


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## J. Pickard (Sep 14, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> So, I wear the name Taekwondo, but our training and curriculum look more Japanese/Okinawan Karate than they do "modern" Taekwondo.  As DVCochran, I also train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, and I guess I represent a version of Taekwondo that fractured from the modernization movement in the 1960's.
> 
> There was a time, when I had seriously considered KKW certification, but I later came to the conclusion that the KKW does not represent the "version" of TKD that I teach and practice.  Therefore, it provided little benefit for me.
> 
> At this point in my journey, I'm more concerned with the training, and less concerned about what organization I belong to.  I would probably feel different if there was an organization that perfectly represented what I do, but there isn't.  I do belong to an organization that helps to promote these types of "traditional" schools, but it's more of a path for rank promotion and preservation of the heritage of the original kwan practitioners in the U.S.


What forms/kata/poomsae/hyung do you practice? Sounds like you train very similar to how I do.


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 14, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> What forms/kata/poomsae/hyung do you practice? Sounds like you train very similar to how I do.


Kicho 1-3, Pyung Ahn 1-5, Bassai, Naihanchi 1-3, Chinto, Kong Sang Gun are the main forms in our curriculum.  I know my KJN used to teach a few others, but discarded them from the curriculum decades ago.  I also know, Rohai, Seisan, Jion, Wanshu, Ship Soo, and Kong Sang Gun Dae, but it's not a part of our official curriculum.


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## dvcochran (Sep 14, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> So, I wear the name Taekwondo, but our training and curriculum look more Japanese/Okinawan Karate than they do "modern" Taekwondo.  As DVCochran, I also train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, and I guess I represent a version of Taekwondo that fractured from the modernization movement in the 1960's.
> 
> There was a time, when I had seriously considered KKW certification, but I later came to the conclusion that the KKW does not represent the "version" of TKD that I teach and practice.  Therefore, it provided little benefit for me.
> 
> At this point in my journey, I'm more concerned with the training, and less concerned about what organization I belong to.  I would probably feel different if there was an organization that perfectly represented what I do, but there isn't.  I do belong to an organization that helps to promote these types of "traditional" schools, but it's more of a path for rank promotion and preservation of the heritage of the original kwan practitioners in the U.S.


I was able to see my 7th Dan MDK certificate signed by GM Jae Kyu Chun shortly before his passing. This will always carry great gravity and be dear to my heart. The Chun family are great people with a great MDK legacy. 
I am a traditionalist at heart but did get very involved in the Olympic circuit in the 80's and 90's. One of the big downsides (as I get older at least) is keeping up with the 50 plus forms for both sides (MDK & KKW). 

We still test MDK for the color and black belts. We have a strong college age clientele who need to test KKW for transfer reasons so most people test both ways. A luxury we have through our GM and our structure without people having to travel to test. For 6th Dan and below testing's we have KKW officials come to Nashville for testing. 
For all other KKW functions (Master License Course and such) we have to travel.


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## Buka (Sep 14, 2021)

I've had a hate/love relationship with TKD for fifty years. Some of my dearest martial friends are TKD.
Some of my sworn mortal enemies are TKD.

I hold a fourth in TKD from long ago. Only studied it to fight them from within.

The moral of this is - accomplished Martial Artists can have an effect on younger Martial Artists. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good.


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 14, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I was able to see my 7th Dan MDK certificate signed by GM Jae Kyu Chun shortly before his passing. This will always carry great gravity and be dear to my heart. The Chun family are great people with a great MDK legacy.
> I am a traditionalist at heart but did get very involved in the Olympic circuit in the 80's and 90's. One of the big downsides (as I get older at least) is keeping up with the 50 plus forms for both sides (MDK & KKW).
> 
> We still test MDK for the color and black belts. We have a strong college age clientele who need to test KKW for transfer reasons so most people test both ways. A luxury we have through our GM and our structure without people having to travel to test. For 6th Dan and below testing's we have KKW officials come to Nashville for testing.
> For all other KKW functions (Master License Course and such) we have to travel.


Ah yes, the 80's and 90's.  My KJN, GM Sok Ho Kang was involved with the olympic development at that time as well.  I competed on the Junior circuit, qualifying for the Junior Olympics a couple of times.  GM Kang never supported us getting KKW certification at that time, as his reputation, and the rules at the time did not require it.  

There was quite a scandal within the USTU in the 90's, and the end result was that we backed out of supporting Olympic development.  He felt it was detracting from the true essence of TKD, and the corruption of money and power were ruining the reputation of TKD.  

I had mixed feelings about it, but at the end of the day, we remained under his direction and maintained our "traditional" curriculum.


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## drop bear (Sep 14, 2021)

By the way. You find a tkd club that competes in kick boxing.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 15, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> What forms/kata/poomsae/hyung do you practice? Sounds like you train very similar to how I do.


It seems to be fairly typical of MDK schools. We do the 6 Kicho forms, the 8 Palgwae forms, then the same yudanja forms as a KKW school. We do offer KKW certification, and those students learn the Taeguek forms. I also teach the Chang Hon forms, but those are entirely optional.  Most of our students have stayed with MDK. We also do the various forms at different ranks. Our Dan tests use the same forms as the KKW, but one rank sooner. You do Koryo to earn 1st Dan, Keumgang to earn 2nd, etc.


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## dvcochran (Sep 15, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Ah yes, the 80's and 90's.  My KJN, GM Sok Ho Kang was involved with the olympic development at that time as well.  I competed on the Junior circuit, qualifying for the Junior Olympics a couple of times.  GM Kang never supported us getting KKW certification at that time, as his reputation, and the rules at the time did not require it.
> 
> There was quite a scandal within the USTU in the 90's, and the end result was that we backed out of supporting Olympic development.  He felt it was detracting from the true essence of TKD, and the corruption of money and power were ruining the reputation of TKD.
> 
> I had mixed feelings about it, but at the end of the day, we remained under his direction and maintained our "traditional" curriculum.


I remember your GM. He is close in age to my GM Seoung Eui Shin. Sad but true of the scandal about the USTU which is why is was dissolved and USATKD took over. 
Political jockeying is a way of life in the Korean MA's culture for as far back as I can remember. The titles and names change but the background jostling and poking seem to stay the same. 

I went to the battle of Cincinnati several times. Maybe we crossed paths?


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 15, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I remember your GM. He is close in age to my GM Seoung Eui Shin. Sad but true of the scandal about the USTU which is why is was dissolved and USATKD took over.
> Political jockeying is a way of life in the Korean MA's culture for as far back as I can remember. The titles and names change but the background jostling and poking seem to stay the same.
> 
> I went to the battle of Cincinnati several times. Maybe we crossed paths?


That is entirely possible.  By Battle of Cincinnati, are you referring to GM AHN's tournament?  We supported the Ahn Classic for most of my competitive days.  Then there was the Battle of Columbus (GM JP Choi) and Battle of Indianapolis (GM YP Choi).  But yeah, I was at all three pretty consistently in the mid 80's through the 90's.


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## dvcochran (Sep 15, 2021)

drop bear said:


> By the way. You find a tkd club that competes in kick boxing.


You could say I started my MA's competition in PKA in Memphis back in the 80's.


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## dvcochran (Sep 15, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> That is entirely possible.  By Battle of Cincinnati, are you referring to GM AHN's tournament?  We supported the Ahn Classic for most of my competitive days.  Then there was the Battle of Columbus (GM JP Choi) and Battle of Indianapolis (GM YP Choi).  But yeah, I was at all three pretty consistently in the mid 80's through the 90's.


Yes, we have definitely ran in the same circles. Good times. 
How about the Battle of Birmingham (GM Kang), Georgia Classic (GM Uhn), Kentucky (GM Lee)?
My KKW circuit was a little more south/southwest extending to Texas but I am very familiar with all the instructors/tournaments you mention.


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 15, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, we have definitely ran in the same circles. Good times.
> How about the Battle of Birmingham (GM Kang), Georgia Classic (GM Uhn), Kentucky (GM Lee)?
> My KKW circuit was a little more south/southwest extending to Texas but I am very familiar with all the instructors/tournaments you mention.


Looks like you were going south, while I was going north.  Pittsburgh, Akron, Canton, Cleveland, Dayton, DC, New York.  I did compete in Kentucky a couple of times though.  Never made it as far south as Alabama and Georgia in competition, except for Jr. Olympics.


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

Taekwondo training has always emphasized flashy and impractical techniques to distinguish itself as Korean, which is why it has tended to be low on the totem pole among budo systems in popular opinion.

One is free to disregard the flashy content, but to suggest that TKD training was once grounded and realistic is not accurate.

Even Tang Soo Do had more flashy kick training, so it's always been that way.


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Taekwondo training has always emphasised flashy and impractical techniques to distinguish itself as Korean, which is why it has tended to be low on the totem pole among budo systems in popular opinion.
> 
> One is free to disregard the flashy content, but to suggest that TKD training was once grounded and realistic is not accurate.
> 
> Even Tang Soo Do had more flashy kick training, so it's always been that way.



I suppose that depends on what you define as "flashy."  The time frame that Tang Soo Do developed, Savate-influenced techniques had been incorporated into Shotokan by Funakoshi's son.  Did the Koreans emphasize them more than the Japanese styles?  I can't speak to that.  Here's some early Moo Duk Kwan footage.  






Here's a connection historically to what I'm talking about with Savate and Karate/TSD.






If you are referring to TSD's historical emphasis on these types of kicks as being 'low on the totem pole among budo systems,"  I'm not sure I fully agree, but everyone has their own opinions.  TSD/TKD has such a fragmented and fractured existence, I find it difficult to have a broad sweeping generalization about the art.  I'm sure many Karate-ka feel the same about Japanese or Okinawan Karate.


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I suppose that depends on what you define as "flashy."  The time frame that Tang Soo Do developed, Savate-influenced techniques had been incorporated into Shotokan by Funakoshi's son.  Did the Koreans emphasize them more than the Japanese styles?  I can't speak to that.  Here's some early Moo Duk Kwan footage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I f


SahBumNimRush said:


> I suppose that depends on what you define as "flashy."  The time frame that Tang Soo Do developed, Savate-influenced techniques had been incorporated into Shotokan by Funakoshi's son.  Did the Koreans emphasize them more than the Japanese styles?  I can't speak to that.  Here's some early Moo Duk Kwan footage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo emphasizes high kicks more than Karate, as well as spinning head kicks. You can easily find a Karate school with no spin kicks trained but not TKD. Head kicks have their place in Karate but not to the degree and extent of TKD


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> "I f"


Not sure what you were intending to communicate here.



InfiniteLoop said:


> Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo emphasizes high kicks more than Karate, as well as spinning head kicks. You can easily find a Karate school with no spin kicks trained but not TKD. Head kicks have their place in Karate but not to the degree and extent of TKD



I don't think you'd find anyone that would disagree with this statement.  But as I showed above, it's due to a competitive focus that influenced the region in the first half of the 20th century.  It would make sense that an established system like Karate, would have some circles that it was more and less emphasized.  

TSD/TKD is a system that, to varying degrees depending on the circle, focuses both on athletic competition as well as traditional martial arts training.  I think breaking is another example of this.  Not every karate school focuses heavy on breaking.  

This all being said, I'm not sure the degree of "Budo" element in TKD/TSD as compared to other arts is what was in question in the OP, as much as it was the sliding scale of focus being placed on flash and flare in today's major TKD organizations, compared to TKD/TSD organizations of the past.  Was there always an element of flash and flare, yes.  To this extent?  Not at all.


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Not sure what you were intending to communicate here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The flashyness has gotten more extreme in some cases (not neccesarily in sparring which in some ways became less flashy) but it was already unrealistic, so it doesn't matter from a combat application standpoint.

Nobody can seriously contend that sparring with frequent aerial kicks, no clinch, no sweeps, no low kicks, was ever combat centric.

Formal TKD as trained was always more centered on looks and difficulty than realism.


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## dvcochran (Sep 15, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Looks like you were going south, while I was going north.  Pittsburgh, Akron, Canton, Cleveland, Dayton, DC, New York.  I did compete in Kentucky a couple of times though.  Never made it as far south as Alabama and Georgia in competition, except for Jr. Olympics.


I have had a ton of kids in AAU over the years. We did go as far a NY a few times and Pittsburgh several times. Most of the bigger AAU tourneys are in Indianapolis and Ohio though. Good times.


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> The flashyness has gotten more extreme in some cases (not neccesarily in sparring which in some ways became less flashy) but it was already unrealistic,* so it doesn't matter from a combat application standpoint.*


I believe this is an over-simplified perspective.  My day to day curriculum typically consists of floor exercises, forms (the old TSD forms, aka karate katas, and includes application practice), one step sparring, some accessory drills, and free sparring.  We practice applications of our forms, which don't have the aerial or flashy kicks.  We practice sparring under various situations (grappling, clinch, sweeps, throws, and obviously hand and foot striking).  

I have a visiting student from a KKW school.  Her prior curriculum consisted of calisthenics, a tiny bit of poomse training, and lots and lots of Olympic style sparring.

By your bolded statement, are you suggesting that the difference in these two curriculums is meaningless in terms of combat expertise/application?



InfiniteLoop said:


> Nobody can seriously contend that sparring with frequent aerial kicks, no clinch, no sweeps, no low kicks, was ever combat centric.


I don't think anyone here made that claim.  Sparring, by intention, is a mutually agreed upon athletic/skill contest, not combat.


InfiniteLoop said:


> Formal TKD as trained was always more centered on looks and difficulty than realism.



That has not been my experience.


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I believe this is an over-simplified perspective.  My day to day curriculum typically consists of floor exercises, forms (the old TSD forms, aka karate katas, and includes application practice), one step sparring, some accessory drills, and free sparring.  We practice applications of our forms, which don't have the aerial or flashy kicks.  We practice sparring under various situations (grappling, clinch, sweeps, throws, and obviously hand and foot striking).
> 
> I have a visiting student from a KKW school.  Her prior curriculum consisted of calisthenics, a tiny bit of poomse training, and lots and lots of Olympic style sparring.
> 
> ...



This is how everybody in my TKD school sparred and it’s embarrassing. This is a national champion with no concept of a guard. All he does is spin around and waste energy


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> This is how everybody in my TKD school sparred and it’s embarrassing. This is a national champion with no concept of a guard. All he does is spin around and waste energy



Again, I'm not sure how this is relevant to the OP.  I wouldn't say that either of the three folks sparring in the video had sparring skills or strategies that I would classify as embarrassing.   

Did the two ITF stylists focus mainly on long range strategies?  Yes.  This is the range that the "flashy" kicks shine.  

Have I engaged in matches similar to this? Yes.  I also don't think that this rule set is an effective way to train combative strategies.  It's a contest, it's a skill drill, even a game on some level.  I believe there are more effective ways to train combative strategies and self-defense strategies.   Live drills both with a compliant partner and a resistant partner.  Sparring under varying rules (i.e. limb control, unbalancing, locks, clinch, throws, etc.).  Any competitive sparring sets the rules to both minimize risk and maximize favored techniques, whether it be MMA, various traditional MAs, boxing, etc.  None of which I would consider an effective way to train for real combat/self-defense.

It is my understanding that the OP was commenting on the cult-like mentality he has seen in some prominent organizations and the constant "pay to stay current with our ever changing technical standards" business model of the KKW.  I'm not sure these are problems that are unique to TKD/TSD.  Regardless they are both unpalatable traits that would make me take pause before pursuing membership.  It is a bit of a mute point for me personally, as I am neither an ITF stylist or modern TKD stylist.  

Just my .02


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Again, I'm not sure how this is relevant to the OP.  I wouldn't say that either of the three folks sparring in the video had sparring skills or strategies that I would classify as embarrassing.
> 
> Did the two ITF stylists focus mainly on long range strategies?  Yes.  This is the range that the "flashy" kicks shine.
> 
> ...



Then why does the OP mention about going back to TaeKwonDos supposed combative origin?


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## Jeff Webb (Sep 15, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> That is entirely possible.  By Battle of Cincinnati, are you referring to GM AHN's tournament?  We supported the Ahn Classic for most of my competitive days.  Then there was the Battle of Columbus (GM JP Choi) and Battle of Indianapolis (GM YP Choi).  But yeah, I was at all three pretty consistently in the mid 80's through the 90's.


Hi Guys,
I also attended a few of the "Battle of Cincinnati"s. I came down from Dayton from Y.C. Kim's school at the time. I started with Kim in the late 70s, but by the mid-80s quickly became disenchanted with the tournament scene. Long long days as you will remember with a few minutes of kata and then fighting. I went on to a Kenpo School for the next 15 years (Taningco Academy of Martial Arts, TAMA) where we did no point sparring, only continuous fighting which I seemed to graviate more towards.  We had a really good student at Kim's while I was there, Lung Pham (not even sure I'm spelling his first name right anymore) but he was our school champion, going to the PanAm games back then and Jr Olympics.  Today I'm back teaching Tang Soo Do (With a Kenpo Flair) to 70 students just north of Dayton. However 40 years of kicking and punching (at least that's what I'm blaming it on) forced me to get my left hip replaced a few weeks ago. Recovery going great. SahBumNimRush we also do all the exact forms you started in a previous entry.  Just wanted to say "Hi" when I saw you all talking about Cincinnati.


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 15, 2021)

Jeff Webb said:


> Hi Guys,
> I also attended a few of the "Battle of Cincinnati"s. I came down from Dayton from Y.C. Kim's school at the time. I started with Kim in the late 70s, but by the mid-80s quickly became disenchanted with the tournament scene. Long long days as you will remember with a few minutes of kata and then fighting. I went on to a Kenpo School for the next 15 years (Taningco Academy of Martial Arts, TAMA) where we did no point sparring, only continuous fighting which I seemed to graviate more towards.  We had a really good student at Kim's while I was there, Lung Pham (not even sure I'm spelling his first name right anymore) but he was our school champion, going to the PanAm games back then and Jr Olympics.  Today I'm back teaching Tang Soo Do (With a Kenpo Flair) to 70 students just north of Dayton. However 40 years of kicking and punching (at least that's what I'm blaming it on) forced me to get my left hip replaced a few weeks ago. Recovery going great. SahBumNimRush we also do all the exact forms you started in a previous entry.  Just wanted to say "Hi" when I saw you all talking about Cincinnati.


Awesome!  I remember travelling to Dayton for tournaments when I was a kid.  Nice to meet another martial artist from the region.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> This is how everybody in my TKD school sparred and it’s embarrassing. This is a national champion with no concept of a guard. All he does is spin around and waste energy


This may be your experience, but that doesn’t mean it is everybody’s experience.  All schools are/were not the same.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> This may be your experience, but that doesn’t mean it is everybody’s experience.  All schools are/were not the same.



Are you just guessing or do you have actual experience in TaeKwonDo? And no it is not just my experience and I explain why and how it is tied to Korean culture.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Are you just guessing or do you have actual experience in TaeKwonDo? And no it is not just my experience and I explain why and how it is tied to Korean culture.


No direct experience with TKD, no.  But I’ve read plenty of discussions here in the forum over the last 15 years or so where people have talked about what their TKD training was like.  Ive also got a close friend who came from a TKD background from the 1970s-1980s an he has described to me what training was like.  Ive also got my own instructors, some of whom came from TKD backgrounds, who have also described to me what it was like.

I understand you had a specific experience in training TKD and I’m not trying to challenge that.  It was real.  But in a widespread system like TKD, that experience will vary widely.  Many schools never went down the Olympic road at all and kept training closer to the karate roots.  It’s still TKD.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> No direct experience with TKD, no.  But I’ve read plenty of discussions here in the forum over the last 15 years or so where people have talked about what their TKD training was like.  Ive also got a close friend who came from a TKD background from the 1970s-1980s an he has described to me what training was like.  Ive also got my own instructors, some of whom came from TKD backgrounds, who have also described to me what it was like.
> 
> I understand you had a specific experience in training TKD and I’m not trying to challenge that.  It was real.  But in a widespread system like TKD, that experience will vary widely.  Many schools never went down the Olympic road at all and kept training closer to the karate roots.  It’s still TKD.



I linked to a competitor in the *traditional* branch. I trained in a traditional branch. It is still wildly unrealistic sparring and 100% of the students have no concept of how vulnerable they are to getting punched in the face. 

The freakin freeze shot is the Karateka
Punching a TKD champion with his hands completely down in a punching range. It's embarrassing how low their comprehension is for punching. 

I understood it from the get go, for whatever reason... Maybe it's an IQ thing.. Who knows.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 15, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> No direct experience with TKD, no.  But I’ve read plenty of discussions here in the forum over the last 15 years or so where people have talked about what their TKD training was like.  Ive also got a close friend who came from a TKD background from the 1970s-1980s an he has described to me what training was like.  Ive also got my own instructors, some of whom came from TKD backgrounds, who have also described to me what it was like.
> 
> I understand you had a specific experience in training TKD and I’m not trying to challenge that.  It was real.  But in a widespread system like TKD, that experience will vary widely.  Many schools never went down the Olympic road at all and kept training closer to the karate roots.





Flying Crane said:


> No direct experience with TKD, no.  But I’ve read plenty of discussions here in


Like I wrote before; nobody is forcing you to do spins, drop you guard, etc you can stick to the more grounded techniques and use Karate-is punches or boxing for that matter. It's all part of TaeKwonDo... 

However, since this was a discussion on how the training actually is and what the students are encouraged to do, what you end up with is a few effective techniques spoiled by flashy sparring. Meaning, the realistic combat techniques aren't taught to be applied in a realistic manner. 

Anyway, that's my philosophical beef with TKD when it comes to application.

 The content itself is not the problem. You can use a spins effectively in fights, but to revolve around them is however highly dubious.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I linked to a competitor in the *traditional* branch. I trained in a traditional branch. It is still wildly unrealistic sparring and 100% of the students have no concept of how vulnerable they are to getting punched in the face.
> 
> The freakin freeze shot is the Karateka
> Punching a TKD champion with his hands completely down in a punching range. It's embarrassing how low their comprehension is for punching.
> ...


I’m not going to dispute your experiences.  I only point out that your experiences are not everyone’s experiences.  You don’t have to like TKD.  Nobody says you do.  That is your choice.  But others have different experiences and feel otherwise about it.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> The flashyness has gotten more extreme in some cases (not neccesarily in sparring which in some ways became less flashy) but it was already unrealistic, so it doesn't matter from a combat application standpoint.
> 
> Nobody can seriously contend that sparring with frequent aerial kicks, no clinch, no sweeps, no low kicks, was ever combat centric.
> 
> Formal TKD as trained was always more centered on looks and difficulty than realism.



Yes and no. 

As an overall development method it isn't as hard and fast as that. There are guys who land quality flash kicks at an elite level. And were able to do so due by being restricted to having to do them in competition. 

You run in to issues when you train garbage off guys who don't understand how to fight. 

But also learning flash kicking is a lot harder than learning high percentage basics. Even just in terms of energy expenditure. 

But there is less likelihood that the guy you are fighting has spent as much time defending flash kicks as well. 

So yeah. It is a bit complicated.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Sep 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> This is how everybody in my TKD school sparred and it’s embarrassing. This is a national champion with no concept of a guard. All he does is spin around and waste energy


Interesting video.  The Japanese (Shotokan) guy posts his travels on you tube.  He was very humble in his commentary.  Yet, he clearly showed superiority, IMO:

   1.  timing   2.  using angles   3.  using 1 & 2 he got in very clean counter punches   4.  he gave       the TKD guy a break by letting him control the action      

As for the spinning kicks, especially to the head, TDK competition often scores such moves higher point value than a regular kick or punch, so this is what they practice.  I noticed at very close range neither one of them did much.  No sweeps, take downs or grabbing & striking.  Did the rules they used forbid all this good stuff?  Practicing to competitive rules widens the gap between sport and real fighting.


----------



## _Simon_ (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Nobody can seriously contend that sparring with frequent aerial kicks, no clinch, no sweeps, no low kicks, was ever combat centric.


In Kyokushin we had some aerial kicks, no clinch, no sweeps, we did have low kicks, and sparring with a great majority of Kyokushin practitioners you'll see pretty quickly just how very capable they are in fighting.

Sometimes, or mostly really, it's not so much just specific superficial techniques a style does that determines whether it is "combat centric". Bit more to it than that. Mindset, approach, the particular practice and systemic methods as a cohesive whole tend to be more reflective as to the result. Not whether one will train a high flashy-looking kick.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> In Kyokushin we had some aerial kicks, no clinch, no sweeps, we did have low kicks, and sparring with a great majority of Kyokushin practitioners you'll see pretty quickly just how very capable they are in fighting.
> 
> Sometimes, or mostly really, it's not so much just specific superficial techniques a style does that determines whether it is "combat centric". Bit more to it than that. Mindset, approach, the particular practice and systemic methods as a cohesive whole tend to be more reflective as to the result. Not whether one will train a high flashy-looking kick.



And Kyokushin is useless without cross training


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## SahBumNimRush (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I linked to a competitor in the *traditional* branch. I trained in a traditional branch. It is still wildly unrealistic sparring and 100% of the students have no concept of how vulnerable they are to getting punched in the face.
> 
> The freakin freeze shot is the Karateka
> Punching a TKD champion with his hands completely down in a punching range. It's embarrassing how low their comprehension is for punching.
> ...



Yes, "a" traditional branch.  ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch."  They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do.  The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.  

As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches.  Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit.  You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down.  We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.  

I don't think anyone is arguing your experience, or really even the validity of your statements on the video you posted.  Merely that not every TKD branch or school falls prey to these deficits in training or curriculum.  

I have many friends in ITF schools.  Some train in this manner, others do not.  So even within the same "style" of TKD, things may vary quite a bit.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> And Kyokushin is useless without cross training



Now that's just a trolling statement.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Now that's just a trolling statement.



If you spar close range with no face punching, guess what happens when you step into rules that allow it? You get smashed. As anybody would.


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Yes, "a" traditional branch.  ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch."  They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do.  The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.
> 
> As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches.  Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit.  You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down.  We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.
> 
> ...



ITF practices the oldest TKD forms, since the forms prior to Chang Hon were Shotokan and Kung Fu katas


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## MadMartigan (Sep 16, 2021)

Gotta love it when someone's profile name describes every conversation you'll have with them. Around and around the argument goes, where it stops, nobody knows.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Yes, "a" traditional branch.  ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch."  They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do.  The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.
> 
> As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches.  Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit.  You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down.  We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.
> 
> ...



I challenge you to produce footage of TKD sparring that does no include foot fencing


SahBumNimRush said:


> Yes, "a" traditional branch.  ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch."  They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do.  The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.
> 
> As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches.  Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit.  You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down.  We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.
> 
> ...



What they claim is irrelevant. You don't have knowledge of what they are talking to you about.  


SahBumNimRush said:


> Yes, "a" traditional branch.  ITF is a branch of TKD that developed AFTER my "branch."  They don't practice the oldest formsets the Koreans practiced in the earliest days of Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do.  The only reason, I wear the moniker of TKD is that my heritage supported the unification process for a time, adopted the name TKD, then dropped their support after the fall of the KTA.
> 
> As others have said, TKD is a widespread art, with many branches.  Curriculums vary quite a bit, just as curriculums within Karate vary quite a bit.  You won't see anyone in our dojang sparring with their guard down.  We use hand techniques regularly in sparring.
> 
> ...


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> ITF practices the oldest TKD forms, since the forms prior to Chang Hon were Shotokan and Kung Fu katas



I guess this is where we get in to semantics.  One could argue that because the forms existed prior the name TKD, there are purely TSD/KSD forms.  But, I practice MDK TKD, and we still perform those older forms.  Would you say that I practice TKD, and only do karate katas?  The forms I know come from a small handful of different karate sources, namely Shudokan and Shotokan.  There are some arguments for Goju/Wado in there too.  That said, I practice TKD, not Shudokan, not Shotokan, but what some call Korean Karate.  I mean, Kong Soo Do translates into the way of the open hand, Tang Soo Do translates to the way of the Tang (or Chinese) hand.  

Are you arguing that because the Koreans learned karate, and stylized it, as other teachers did in their own way in Japan and Okinawa, that anything they taught as TSD or KSD, cannot be TKD?  I mean, that takes out quite a bit of curriculum, even in ITF circles.  Not all TKD styles utilize methods taught in the Chang Hon forms (i.e. sine wave power generation).


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I guess this is where we get in to semantics.  One could argue that because the forms existed prior the name TKD, there are purely TSD/KSD forms.  But, I practice MDK TKD, and we still perform those older forms.  Would you say that I practice TKD, and only do karate katas?  The forms I know come from a small handful of different karate sources, namely Shudokan and Shotokan.  There are some arguments for Goju/Wado in there too.  That said, I practice TKD, not Shudokan, not Shotokan, but what some call Korean Karate.  I mean, Kong Soo Do translates into the way of the open hand, Tang Soo Do translates to the way of the Tang (or Chinese) hand.
> 
> Are you arguing that because the Koreans learned karate, and stylized it, as other teachers did in their own way in Japan and Okinawa, that anything they taught as TSD or KSD, cannot be TKD?  I mean, that takes out quite a bit of curriculum, even in ITF circles.  Not all TKD styles utilize methods taught in the Chang Hon forms (i.e. sine wave power generation).



Depends on your stance parameters. If it's low Shotokan stances, then I would argue that you are training both Karate and TaeKwonDo, since not all of your techniques are Koreanized.

If you train with TKD stance parameters, then I would say it's TKD with karate kata sequences.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I challenge you to produce footage of TKD sparring that does no include foot fencing



Competitive sparring under TKD rulesets encourages long range techniques.  But that's different than "foot fencing."  I'm far from the best fighter, but I'm fine with putting myself out there.  Here's some footage of me sparring starting around 4:30 mark.  It's under traditional TKD 3 point sparring rules. 









InfiniteLoop said:


> What they claim is irrelevant. You don't have knowledge of what they are talking to you about.



I'm not even sure what you're saying here.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'm not even sure what you're saying here.



He has zero training time in TaeKwonDo.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Competitive sparring under TKD rulesets encourages long range techniques.  But that's different than "foot fencing."  I'm far from the best fighter, but I'm fine with putting myself out there.  Here's some footage of me sparring starting around 4:30 mark.  It's under traditional TKD 3 point sparring rules.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have trained ITF for 7 years and I don’t recall any 3 point sparring rules....


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I have trained ITF for 7 years and I don’t recall any 3 point sparring rules....


Once again, you are pigeon holing your definition of "traditional" with ITF.  There were multiple ITF stylists that I sparred in that video, and I think you'll find many who have competed within these rulesets.  The majority of tournaments in the U.S. from the 60's through the 80's were 3 point style tournaments.  Those styles that went with Olympic development offered continuous rules, while most of the traditionalists maintained the 3 point rules.  

I have sparred under various rulesets, but the vast majority of my experience comes from 3 point matches.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Once again, you are pigeon holing your definition of "traditional" with ITF.  There were multiple ITF stylists that I sparred in that video, and I think you'll find many who have competed within these rulesets.  The majority of tournaments in the U.S. from the 60's through the 80's were 3 point style tournaments.  Those styles that went with Olympic development offered continuous rules, while most of the traditionalists maintained the 3 point rules.
> 
> I have sparred under various rulesets, but the vast majority of my experience comes from 3 point matches.


Never heard of it. What is it exactly.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 16, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Once again, you are pigeon holing your definition of "traditional" with ITF.  There were multiple ITF stylists that I sparred in that video, and I think you'll find many who have competed within these rulesets.  The majority of tournaments in the U.S. from the 60's through the 80's were 3 point style tournaments.  Those styles that went with Olympic development offered continuous rules, while most of the traditionalists maintained the 3 point rules.
> 
> I have sparred under various rulesets, but the vast majority of my experience comes from 3 point matches.



I would call that Open Style point Karate, not TKD. 

This is a 3 point competition?


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I would call that Open Style point Karate, not TKD.


Many of the greatest TKD Pioneers in the U.S. hosted tournaments under these rules.  Many of their names still grace the names of tournaments that continue to use the rules today.  The late S. Henry Cho, the late Ki Whang Kim, Il Joo Kim, Kyong Won Ahn, the late Joon Pyo Choi, who co-founded the Arnold Classic, to name a few.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I would call that Open Style point Karate, not TKD.


The rule set used in a tournament does not define an art.


----------



## Buka (Sep 16, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> The rule set used in a tournament does not define an art.


That's as well said as anything this thread will have for countless pages.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Sep 16, 2021)

Buka said:


> That's as well said as anything this thread will have for countless pages.


Fair enough.  I'll leave it at that.


----------



## J. Pickard (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Then why does the OP mention about going back to TaeKwonDos supposed combative origin?


When I say "origin" I am referring to the pre-unification roots of TKD (essentially karate) being trained and taught for practical combative purposes. It was taught to the Korean and US military in the late '50's early '60's for its effectiveness in combat. Taekwondo was not developed to be just a sport or an acrobatic exercise, it was developed by military men and people of the upper echelon in Korea's political scene to develop fighting ability and refined in combat during the korean war. That is what I mean by combative origin.


----------



## _Simon_ (Sep 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> And Kyokushin is useless without cross training


Well. This in itself shows your mindset and perceptual framework. That's very unfortunate. Very black and white thinking huh... I suggest you reflect on your agenda, and engage in actual open discussion rather than making such blind limited statements. But up to you of course


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## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> The rule set used in a tournament does not define an art.



Never said it did. I said that I would call that sparring format point Karate open style.


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I would call that Open Style point Karate, not TKD.
> 
> This is a 3 point competition?


You are aging yourself with this statement. Nearly All tournaments, regardless of style, used this similar ruleset and format prior to the Olympic push. There are still many TKD tournaments (ITF, ATA, etc...) that use this format.  By no means is it dead.

Seems you are young in your martial arts experience. Not a bad thing, but is certainly invalidates the way you are bashing things.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> You are aging yourself with this statement. Nearly All tournaments, regardless of style, used this similar ruleset and format prior to the Olympic push. There are still many TKD tournaments (ITF, ATA, etc...) that use this format.  By no means is it dead.
> 
> Seems you are young in your martial arts experience. Not a bad thing, but is certainly invalidates the way you are bashing things.


ITF does not use stop format. 

As to my experience:


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> When I say "origin" I am referring to the pre-unification roots of TKD (essentially karate) being trained and taught for practical combative purposes. It was taught to the Korean and US military in the late '50's early '60's for its effectiveness in combat. Taekwondo was not developed to be just a sport or an acrobatic exercise, it was developed by military men and people of the upper echelon in Korea's political scene to develop fighting ability and refined in combat during the korean war. That is what I mean by combative origin.


Eh, why not just train Karate then? Going back to when it wasn't TKD doesn't make sense.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> ITF does not use stop format.
> 
> As to my experience:


Ummm am I missing something here? What does a kick have to do with your experience?


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Ummm am I missing something here? What does a kick have to do with your experience?



Quote: "(you have) better form in jeans than most people in uniforms". I'm guessing experience has something to do with that.  I didn't sit on my *** for 7 years.

ITF uses a _continuous_ sparring format, meaning a referee will *not* step in just because you land a hit. Cochran user is confused.... And TKD free sparring has traditionally always been continuous. The only time they possibly used Karate stop format was when they hadn't invented their own!


----------



## skribs (Sep 17, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Not caring about gaining new rank I decided to remain independent but had a few students asking about certification from Kukkiwon or ITF for when they left for college just in case their rank was questioned (spoiler, it wasn't).


It is my understanding that if you go to a KKW school, and you're not part of KKW or one of the Kwans, then you essentially have to start your progress at 1st Dan.  So if you are a 5th degree in the unaffiliated "Lakewood Taekwondo Academy" (or even if it's part of another organization like ATA or ITF), then you go to a KKW school, they can have you test in as a 1st Dan and start your journey there.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

skribs said:


> It is my understanding that if you go to a KKW school, and you're not part of KKW or one of the Kwans, then you essentially have to start your progress at 1st Dan.  So if you are a 5th degree in the unaffiliated "Lakewood Taekwondo Academy" (or even if it's part of another organization like ATA or ITF), then you go to a KKW school, they can have you test in as a 1st Dan and start your journey there.



In ITF, General Choi felt that a KKW black belt was transferable up until 4th degree. I don't recall if it was including 4th or up to forth but the interview is on Youtube.


----------



## skribs (Sep 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> In ITF, General Choi felt that a KKW black belt was transferable up until 4th degree. I don't recall if it was including 4th or up to forth but the interview is on Youtube.


If that's what General Choi said, it makes me think I'm right about KKW.  His feelings on inclusiveness were a big reason for his exile.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 17, 2021)

skribs said:


> If that's what General Choi said, it makes me think I'm right about KKW.  His feelings on inclusiveness were a big reason for his exile.


His exile was due to treason. His North Korea communication could have been about baseball and he would have still been kicked out.


----------



## J. Pickard (Sep 17, 2021)

skribs said:


> It is my understanding that if you go to a KKW school, and you're not part of KKW or one of the Kwans, then you essentially have to start your progress at 1st Dan.  So if you are a 5th degree in the unaffiliated "Lakewood Taekwondo Academy" (or even if it's part of another organization like ATA or ITF), then you go to a KKW school, they can have you test in as a 1st Dan and start your journey there.


That was my understanding as well, but I have a student you got 1st Dan Chung Do Kwan and 2nd Dan through our school alone. He went to UM (michigan) trained with them for a few days and they let him keep his rank and they are purely Kukki/WT sport TKD. The main reason I looked into it was for that reason and I ended up beyond disappointed. My Original instructor got 4th dan through Moo Duk Kwan before switching to Chung Do Kwan so maybe I will look into some MDK groups, they seem to train very similar to how I do based on what I have read in this thread.


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 17, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> That was my understanding as well, but I have a student you got 1st Dan Chung Do Kwan and 2nd Dan through our school alone. He went to UM (michigan) trained with them for a few days and they let him keep his rank and they are purely Kukki/WT sport TKD. The main reason I looked into it was for that reason and I ended up beyond disappointed. My Original instructor got 4th dan through Moo Duk Kwan before switching to Chung Do Kwan so maybe I will look into some MDK groups, they seem to train very similar to how I do based on what I have read in this thread.


A local school allowing someone to keep their rank is very similar to what Skribs described and is not unheard of in every style out there. Especially being at a university, I imagine it speaks as much about the quality of the prior training the person had received more than anything else.
If the person you mentioned can show they received a 2nd Dan Kukkiwon certificate And can look up their information on the KMS that would be a very different situation, but I doubt that very much. There is a shocking number of fake certificates out there.


----------



## skribs (Sep 17, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> That was my understanding as well, but I have a student you got 1st Dan Chung Do Kwan and 2nd Dan through our school alone. He went to UM (michigan) trained with them for a few days and they let him keep his rank and they are purely Kukki/WT sport TKD. The main reason I looked into it was for that reason and I ended up beyond disappointed. My Original instructor got 4th dan through Moo Duk Kwan before switching to Chung Do Kwan so maybe I will look into some MDK groups, they seem to train very similar to how I do based on what I have read in this thread.


I think there's a difference between the local school letting him keep his rank while training there, and him being able to get to 3rd Dan in KKW.  

I also think that the original Kwans (which I believe MDK is one) have the ability to do a Dan transfer into KKW, but the various national or local federations do not.


----------



## _Simon_ (Sep 18, 2021)

Ahhhh something has just clicked. Now I S.E.E. what's going on.

What a F.A.M.I.L.I.A.R. conversation...

Carry on


----------



## Buka (Sep 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Ummm am I missing something here? What does a kick have to do with your experience?


It has to do with the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 25, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> ITF uses a _continuous_ sparring format, meaning a referee will *not* step in just because you land a hit. Cochran user is confused.... And TKD free sparring has traditionally always been continuous. The only time they possibly used Karate stop format was when they hadn't invented their own!


"Traditionally" needs to be defined before anyone can judge that statement.   ITF started Continuous sparring in 1974. I have the ITF magazine announcing the "New" format.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 25, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> His exile was due to treason. His North Korea communication could have been about baseball and he would have still been kicked out.


Wrong again. General Choi went to Canada long before he went to North Korea.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Sep 25, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Wrong again. General Choi went to Canada long before he went to North Korea.


I didn't write anything about travel


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 26, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Quote: "(you have) better form in jeans than most people in uniforms". I'm guessing experience has something to do with that.  I didn't sit on my *** for 7 years.
> 
> ITF uses a _continuous_ sparring format, meaning a referee will *not* step in just because you land a hit. Cochran user is confused.... And TKD free sparring has traditionally always been continuous. The only time they possibly used Karate stop format was when they hadn't invented their own!


Wait a minute; you mean someone can create something and if be their own thing?!? Even when it was being done in other sports or systems?!? 
Gee, that sound strikingly familiar.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 2, 2021)

skribs said:


> It is my understanding that if you go to a KKW school, and you're not part of KKW or one of the Kwans, then you essentially have to start your progress at 1st Dan.  So if you are a 5th degree in the unaffiliated "Lakewood Taekwondo Academy" (or even if it's part of another organization like ATA or ITF), then you go to a KKW school, they can have you test in as a 1st Dan and start your journey there.



Kukkiwon has had some initiatives to allow people to test for rank transfer from ITF and ATA. I'm not sure if they're still doing that, but they were for a while. But if your certificate is from an unaffiliated school, yeah, you're SOL and have to start at KKW 1st dan.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 2, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> Kukkiwon has had some initiatives to allow people to test for rank transfer from ITF and ATA. I'm not sure if they're still doing that, but they were for a while. But if your certificate is from an unaffiliated school, yeah, you're SOL and have to start at KKW 1st dan.


I think this is very much a grey area. I don't think the KKW has ever had a formal policy about transferring rank from other organization. But I do know we've had several high ranked KKW posters here who had stated that it was common practice to grant equivalent rank to Dan holders from other TKD styles. If memory serves, the person was expected to agree to teach the KKW curriculum from that time, but we all know that's completely unenforceable.


----------



## skribs (Oct 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think this is very much a grey area. I don't think the KKW has ever had a formal policy about transferring rank from other organization. But I do know we've had several high ranked KKW posters here who had stated that it was common practice to grant equivalent rank to Dan holders from other TKD styles. If memory serves, the person was expected to agree to teach the KKW curriculum from that time, but we all know that's completely unenforceable.


One thing that's frustrating is trying to navigate what is:

What is something that happened in the past but has changed
What is something that people can still get exceptions
What is something that happened to someone's friend's acquaintances cousin that was misunderstood at some point before that someone told me what happened


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think this is very much a grey area.



Especially in their brains. I visited a KKW instructors dojang, told him that I'm ITF affiliated, to which he replied: "isn't that Karate?"

Sigh...


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 5, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think this is very much a grey area. I don't think the KKW has ever had a formal policy about transferring rank from other organization. But I do know we've had several high ranked KKW posters here who had stated that it was common practice to grant equivalent rank to Dan holders from other TKD styles. If memory serves, the person was expected to agree to teach the KKW curriculum from that time, but we all know that's completely unenforceable.


The Kukkiwon definitely used to have a formal policy about transferring rank from other organisations. It was Article 18 of the promotion regulations. I believe these are still current (if a little hard to find on their website) - "World Culture Taekwondo! Kukkiwon will make it"

Your memory is correct though - they assimilate at the same rank, should commit to teaching Kukkiwon and also, that it's a one time deal (i.e. you're switching over and isn't to be used every time you get a new higher Dan rank).


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 5, 2021)

skribs said:


> One thing that's frustrating is trying to navigate what is:
> 
> What is something that happened in the past but has changed
> What is something that people can still get exceptions
> What is something that happened to someone's friend's acquaintances cousin that was misunderstood at some point before that someone told me what happened


I can imagine.

The only thing I can say is that I'm happy to clear most points up for you as officially as I can. I'm a Kukkiwon licensed master instructor and examiner, and I'm anal about knowing correct details (apparently I'm borderline autistic). So I can make you a publicly stated promise - if you ask a question about Kukkiwon rules and practices, I'll answer if I'm 100% sure, preface with an opinion if I believe it's a certain way (but only if I'm strongly sure, but unable to 100% state it) and find out the answer for you if I don't know at all.


----------



## skribs (Oct 5, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I'm anal about knowing correct details (apparently I'm borderline autistic).


No wonder I get along so well with you.


----------



## Buka (Oct 5, 2021)

I think we’re all formed by our own, first hand personal experiences…..and how we interpret information we learn over the years.

One day, as a young black belt, driving home from the dojo, there was a big sign on the lawn of the fancy high school in the town one of our dojos was in. It sad “KARATE TOURNAMENT, Saturday.”

I’m thinking, “How do I not know about this!”

Psyched, me and a few of the fellas show up on Saturday ready to compete. But it was not a karate tournament, it was an AAU Tae-Kwon-Do tournament. Back then, at least where we were, the name Tae-Kwon-Do was not well known outside the Martial community. They were not looking for competitors, they were looking for spectators.

Three very tall Korean gentleman, with their grey slacks and blue AAU jackets on, made quite the impression on us. We couldn’t fight, we were not part of AAU Tae-Kwon-Do. When I asked why the sign said “Karate” they spoke to each other in Korean, laughed in our faces and glared at us. (They had pretty good stink eye, gotta give them that.) Then they laughed at us some more.

Then one of them said, “Go away, you are not wanted here.” He then made the shoo motion with his hand. And they laughed at us some more.

So we shooed. What else were we to do? But I never forgot it.

Fast forward a decade. The building our old dojo was in was purchased and we were given a two month notice to scram. We trained all over the place for a couple years, I had made a lot of friends in the Arts and they welcomed us with open arms. But eventually I had to open a place, so I did. All the old students came as well as a boatload of new ones. We were a very busy fighting gym. 

We became important to the community and did everything to help them. A small greek restaurant opened in the town square. Three small tables and six stools at the counter. I stopped in and ate. Terrific food, really nice man running it. I spread the word, soon a lot of our guys were eating there. His place thrived as everyone spread the word.

So……one Saturday after class I cruise up to Nick’s restaurant. In his window is a large poster for a new Tae-Kwon-Do school in the next town. Nick says to me, “Your partners. I wanted to help, I’d do anything for you after all you've done for me.”

I said, “My partners?” He explained that he told two guys he couldn’t put up the poster because he was loyal to our school. They in turn told him that they were business partners of mine. He said, “Okay, great, let's put it right in the front window.”

He removed the poster. After I ate I cruised the town square. Found four more posters in the windows of places. They all told the same story, that the young men said they were business partners of mine.

After chatting for a while, I went back to my dojo to call this new school that was supposedly business partners of mine. As I get to my door I stop dead in my tracks. There on my door - our sign is completely covered by one of their posters. I must have missed them by mere minutes.

Let me ask you guys who teach or run a dojo - how would you respond to something like that?


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Oct 5, 2021)

Buka said:


> I think we’re all formed by our own, first hand personal experiences…..and how we interpret information we learn over the years.
> 
> One day, as a young black belt, driving home from the dojo, there was a big sign on the lawn of the fancy high school in the town one of our dojos was in. It sad “KARATE TOURNAMENT, Saturday.”
> 
> ...


Rumble?  HAHA!

On a serious note, that is highly unprofessional.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 5, 2021)

Buka said:


> I think we’re all formed by our own, first hand personal experiences…..and how we interpret information we learn over the years.
> 
> One day, as a young black belt, driving home from the dojo, there was a big sign on the lawn of the fancy high school in the town one of our dojos was in. It sad “KARATE TOURNAMENT, Saturday.”
> 
> ...


Face to face, but I would also leverage my community contacts. The phrase 'smear campaign' comes to mind.
IF, on the outside chance it was  precocious student I could work it out with a good and decent instructor/school owner. But someone needed hell to pay.

Originally, our dojang was named Midstate Karate Studio because I was convinced no one knew what the heck Tae Kwon Do was in our area in 1986. Stayed that way for about 3 years. 
My sincere apologies if this tainted your opinion of Tae Kwon Do.

We have done a ton of work with AAU. In total we are close to 100 Gold medals and over 1,000 medals total. Like every style, it is rules bound so you learn to work within the rules. From a competition perspective there is none better. 
That said, there are bad eggs everywhere. 
That said, it does sound like some of the pompous high ranking instructors I have worked with in my days.


----------



## MadMartigan (Oct 5, 2021)

Buka said:


> Let me ask you guys who teach or run a dojo - how would you respond to something like that?


Not sure about where you live, but in Canada that's a form of criminal fraud (False Pretence). Perhaps a quick phone call to let them know in no uncertain terms that if it happens again, you'd pursue charges.


----------



## Buka (Oct 5, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Face to face. but I would also leverage my community contacts. The phrase 'smear campaign' comes to mind.
> IF on the outside chance it was  precocious student I could work it out with a good and decent instructor/school owner. But someone needed hell to pay.


It got even weirder from there. I waited until the following Saturday. I wanted to talk to some of my students about it. Two of them were police officers in the town the offending school was in.

On the following Saturday I went there, posters in hand. Four of my students stood outside, standing by, two of them the police officers, on duty. (They offered, I accepted.)

It looked like just before they were going to hold a class. I took off my shoes, walked across their floor and went up to the guy in charge. Asked him who put these posters up, who put one on my door and what did they think was going to happen by doing so.

He was completely perplexed. You can fake a lot of things, but it's difficult to fake being perplexed. I asked if these were posters from there. He said, yes, but they were only put up around there, six months earlier when they first opened up.

I asked him to please find out who put them up, that I would be back the following Saturday and allow them to apologize, no hard feelings, no harm, no foul.

Went back the following Saturday with the same guys. The place was closed down, their windows soaped up. It was very odd.


----------



## Buka (Oct 5, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> Not sure about where you live, but in Canada that's a form of criminal fraud (False Pretence). Perhaps a quick phone call to let them know in no uncertain terms that if it happens again, you'd pursue charges.


That would have been the smart thing to do. But nobody ever accused me of being smart.

Whenever a new dojo opened in a radius of five miles (other than Fred Villari) I would always stop by, gifting them a new heavy bag and a couple of kicking shields. Always told them if they needed anything to let me know. And invited them to come down anytime they liked. (I was a distributor and got everything wholesale)

Had I known that school had opened up, I would have done the same for them. And that would never have happened. It was just a really odd experience.


----------



## Buka (Oct 5, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Rumble?  HAHA!
> 
> On a serious note, that is highly unprofessional.


Rumble was my first thoughts on the subject. Maybe reenact Count Dante's Chicago Dojo wars of the sixties. Biggest problem with that - it went against everything I was trying to teach my students.
Sure would have been fun, though. 

But those were my first two dealings with TKD, the AAU jerks and the poster incident.

I suffer from Italian Alzheimers. We forget everything except a grudge.


----------



## MadMartigan (Oct 5, 2021)

Buka said:


> That would have been the smart thing to do. But nobody ever accused me of being smart.


Not sure about that. The way you did handle it seemed to have worked out just fine haha.


----------



## Buka (Oct 5, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> Not sure about that. The way you did handle it seemed to have worked out just fine haha.


It did, yes. But I wish I knew what happened to that dojo. I hate to see dojos close. Even if I don't care for them.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 6, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> they assimilate at the same rank, should commit to teaching Kukkiwon and also, that it's a one time deal (i.e. you're switching over and isn't to be used every time you get a new higher Dan rank).



How does that make sense when a large part of teaching is forms that they never done?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 6, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> How does that make sense when a large part of teaching is forms that they never done?


What makes you think they've never done those forms?
But even if they haven't, it's pretty easy to teach. Someone who is an expert in the Chang Hon forms could be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 6, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> What makes you think they've never done those forms?
> But even if they haven't, it's pretty easy to teach. Someone who is an expert in the Chang Hon forms could be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days.


The moves yes, but not the methodological difference to the level of an instructor. By methodology I mean the exact delivery of the technique.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Oct 6, 2021)

Buka said:


> Rumble was my first thoughts on the subject. Maybe reenact Count Dante's Chicago Dojo wars of the sixties. Biggest problem with that - it went against everything I was trying to teach my students.
> Sure would have been fun, though.
> 
> But those were my first two dealings with TKD, the AAU jerks and the poster incident.
> ...


It was a knee jerk response (and completely in jest), but I 100% agree about it going against what you are trying to teach, morally/ethically.  

I remember hearing stories in the early days of TSD/TKD, that there were many dojang "turf" wars in South Korea.  I don't think things like that would work out well these days from a publicity and liability standpoint.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 6, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> How does that make sense when a large part of teaching is forms that they never done?


The principle isn't that you finish being an ITF practitioner on Day Zero and on Day One get your Kukkiwon certificate and then start to learn the syllabus, style, technical differences etc. The idea is that you get up to speed with those things, but then can transfer your current rank rather than starting again from "No Dan" and testing for 1st, even though you may have got a 5th Dan in ITF.

This isn't a paperwork for "assimilate my Dan", but more like "when recommending someone for Dan rank, you can assimilate their other Dan rank" - the key part is that you're recommending someone for the appropriate Dan level having tested them. So they should have performed a test for the rank they're assimilating in Kukkiwon style and have passed at the appropriate skill level any other candidate would have needed in Kukkiwon style. 

So that's not just "be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days" (as @Dirty Dog said), but actually knowing and performing the forms well enough to pass that 2nd Dan or higher Kukkiwon test.

Hope that helps.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 6, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> The principle isn't that you finish being an ITF practitioner on Day Zero and on Day One get your Kukkiwon certificate and then start to learn the syllabus, style, technical differences etc. The idea is that you get up to speed with those things, but then can transfer your current rank rather than starting again from "No Dan" and testing for 1st, even though you may have got a 5th Dan in ITF.
> 
> This isn't a paperwork for "assimilate my Dan", but more like "when recommending someone for Dan rank, you can assimilate their other Dan rank" - the key part is that you're recommending someone for the appropriate Dan level having tested them. So they should have performed a test for the rank they're assimilating in Kukkiwon style and have passed at the appropriate skill level any other candidate would have needed in Kukkiwon style.
> 
> ...


How long has it taken for Dan ranked ITF guys to assimilate Tageuk forms in your experience?


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 6, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> So that's not just "be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days" (as @Dirty Dog said),



@Dirty Dog says a lot of things. For better or worse.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> How long has it taken for Dan ranked ITF guys to assimilate Tageuk forms in your experience?


We've had a few crossover, I would say that they know the forms (Taegeuk and the black belt series up to their grade) in about a year, but it can take another year or two before they perform them really Kukkiwon style (difference between knowing what the moves are and then doing them correctly rather than ITF-style - from our point of view).

We had one cross over really well in a year dead, but we nicknamed her "Sponge" due to her ability to pick up a correction and fix it either during that session or before the next one.

We haven't had anyone higher than 2nd Dan cross over though, so I can't really speak to whether a 4th/5th Dan would take the same time, less or more... (less maybe because they're higher skilled and have more experience, more because they're more set in their ways and have to fight longer in muscle memory).


----------



## MadMartigan (Oct 7, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> We've had a few crossover, I would say that they know the forms (Taegeuk and the black belt series up to their grade) in about a year, but it can take another year or two before they perform them really Kukkiwon style (difference between knowing what the moves are and then doing them correctly rather than ITF-style - from our point of view).


For those who have a few more years in than I: Could the whole assimilation/belting across practice be more of a hold-over from back when the differences really weren't that pronounced? I would imagine back in the 60s and 70s there may have been more in common than what the 2 sides have since evolved to.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> For those who have a few more years in than I: Could the whole assimilation/belting across practice be more of a hold-over from back when the differences really weren't that pronounced? I would imagine back in the 60s and 70s there may have been more in common than what the 2 sides have since evolved to.



Outside of forms, training is more similiar today between them than in the 70s and 80s.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 7, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> For those who have a few more years in than I: Could the whole assimilation/belting across practice be more of a hold-over from back when the differences really weren't that pronounced? I would imagine back in the 60s and 70s there may have been more in common than what the 2 sides have since evolved to.


Quite possibly, but I also think it's the nature of Taekwondo in South Korea. All the Kwans unified to form KTA/Kukkiwon Taekwondo, only General Choi split off with his ITF (even thought the Kwan he founded is still in KTA and supports Kukkiwon in South Korea). So Kukkiwon has a very inclusive viewpoint and effectively leaves the door always open - if you want to join us, you're part of the Taekwondo family and you're welcome.

I think it's fair to say in the 60s/70s the differences were probably less than they are now though.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I think it's fair to say in the 60s/70s the differences were probably less than they are now though.



I disagree. The ITF borrows sparring techniques from WTF in the 90s. This type of cross pollination did not exist in the 70s and 80s and may well be due to cross-over training. My particular school with an old timer instructor (started 1966) rejects these techniques but it's very pervasive in the ITF.

I don't know the figure on black belts in both ITF and KKW but it's more common than people think, especially higher level athletes.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 7, 2021)

Buka said:


> It got even weirder from there. I waited until the following Saturday. I wanted to talk to some of my students about it. Two of them were police officers in the town the offending school was in.
> 
> On the following Saturday I went there, posters in hand. Four of my students stood outside, standing by, two of them the police officers, on duty. (They offered, I accepted.)
> 
> ...


I got one potential theory. The guy you talked to may have been the head instructor (or even just an instructor), rather than the school owner. The school owner meanwhile, could have been realizing that it's tougher to keep a dojo afloat, and was trying to do that as one last marketing campaign to keep his dojo running. When he either realized it wasn't getting him more students, or he heard from this instructor that you found out, he gave up and ended his lease.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> So that's not just "be taught the Taegeuk forms in a matter of days" (as @Dirty Dog said), but actually knowing and performing the forms well enough to pass that 2nd Dan or higher Kukkiwon test.
> 
> Hope that helps.


I did specify expert. Not competent. It took me a couple weeks, not working particularly hard, to learn the Taegeuks well enough for a KKW 7th Dan to pass me.
I've had students who decided to go KKW at the last minute. They've learned them well enough to pass in 1-2 months. Again, not pushing particularly hard.
If you want to pop over to the States for a week, I'll bet I can teach you the Palgwae forms in a matter of days.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I did specify expert. Not competent. It took me a couple weeks, not working particularly hard, to learn the Taegeuks well enough for a KKW 7th Dan to pass me.



 But you never adopted Sine Wave….ITF mechanics pre SW are obviously closer to the Tageuk forms than with SW.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 8, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I did specify expert. Not competent. It took me a couple weeks, not working particularly hard, to learn the Taegeuks well enough for a KKW 7th Dan to pass me.
> I've had students who decided to go KKW at the last minute. They've learned them well enough to pass in 1-2 months. Again, not pushing particularly hard.
> If you want to pop over to the States for a week, I'll bet I can teach you the Palgwae forms in a matter of days.


Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising you, I agree, I could teach someone dedicated the whole Taegeuk series in a few days. But that wouldn't mean their technique would pass a grading (particularly at the higher Dan levels for assimilation).

Thanks for the offer, being honest I have zero interest in the Palgwae forms (as I'm a Kukkiwon and Changmookwan support, I see that poomsae series as deprecated and unofficial now) - but if I ever come over to your area of the States, I'd love to meet up.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Palgwae forms are nice but dry as paint wall.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> But you never adopted Sine Wave….ITF mechanics pre SW are obviously closer to the Tageuk forms than with SW.


What???


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising you, I agree, I could teach someone dedicated the whole Taegeuk series in a few days. But that wouldn't mean their technique would pass a grading (particularly at the higher Dan levels for assimilation).
> 
> Thanks for the offer, being honest I have zero interest in the Palgwae forms (as I'm a Kukkiwon and Changmookwan support, I see that poomsae series as deprecated and unofficial now) - but if I ever come over to your area of the States, I'd love to meet up.


I have to say that is a response purely root in ignorance. The Palgwae's, and other form sets are what created the Taegueks, which let's be honest, are a form set designed for teaching children. There is no comparison in the depth of the two form sets. But I suspect that is just hocus pocus to you. 

All this talk about teaching the whole form set in a couple of hours/days/weeks supports this assertion. 
It truly hurts to see a TKD person so drinking the KKW Koolaid and being so rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on.  Rant over.

We should never bash what we do not know.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Oct 8, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I have to say that is a response purely root in ignorance. The Palgwae's, and other form sets are what created the Taegueks, which let's be honest, are a form set designed for teaching children. There is no comparison in the depth of the two form sets. But I suspect that is just hocus pocus to you.
> 
> All this talk about teaching the whole form set in a couple of hours/days/weeks supports this assertion.
> It truly hurts to see a TKD person so drinking the KKW Koolaid and being so rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on.  Rant over.
> ...


Andy is a pretty open and genuine person, and I've found that he offers his expertise where he can.  I doubt he meant any disrespect other than those formsets have zero interest to him.  I mean, I don't have any interest in them either, not because they are worthless, but I would rather spend my time training other parts of the art.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I have to say that is a response purely root in ignorance. The Palgwae's, and other form sets are what created the Taegueks, which let's be honest, are a form set designed for teaching children. There is no comparison in the depth of the two form sets. But I suspect that is just hocus pocus to you.
> 
> All this talk about teaching the whole form set in a couple of hours/days/weeks supports this assertion.
> It truly hurts to see a TKD person so drinking the KKW Koolaid and being so rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on.  Rant over.
> ...



The Palgwae forms have virtually no originality. It's just Shotokan with new move orders


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 8, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I have to say that is a response purely root in ignorance. The Palgwae's, and other form sets are what created the Taegueks, which let's be honest, are a form set designed for teaching children. There is no comparison in the depth of the two form sets. But I suspect that is just hocus pocus to you.
> 
> All this talk about teaching the whole form set in a couple of hours/days/weeks supports this assertion.
> It truly hurts to see a TKD person so drinking the KKW Koolaid and being so rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on.  Rant over.
> ...



I think you've read between the lines of what I said and added those 2's to come up with 5.

I never said anything about the quality of the palgwae series, for all I know they may be vastly superior to Taegeuk poomsae - but to be explicit, I didn't claim anything about how good they are. For my last Dan thesis I examined the Taegeuk series against the Chang-hon series and Shotokan's kata, but I didn't look at Palgwae. I found that I like the progression of the Taegeuk series better than the other two (in terms of taking a beginner to Dan level), but again, I don't know the Palgwae series and I'm not planning on learning them, so I don't have any comments on their quality.
I'm fairly confident a decent Dan grade Taekwondoin that is driven to learn them (and already knows most of the movements) could learn any coloured form series in a matter of days (lets say less than a week of full time training). Again, I never claimed you'd do them justice and be at standards (and explicitly said the opposite), but would have memorised the poomsae.
"So drinking the KKW Koolaid", I don't get why you feel someone supporting the Kukkiwon and wanting to 100% be practicing their syllabus as just "drinking the Koolaid", that definitely feels derogatory. Again, I didn't claim that doing Kukkiwon standard Taekwondo is better than other styles, I've didn't said that it's bad if independents/old-schoolers want to keep these old patterns alive. I just explained that Kukkiwon sees them as deprecated (fact) and therefore I personally don't want to learn them.
The point therefore about "response purely root in ignorance" is surely you reacting to something that wasn't there, and then for some reason claiming me to be ignorant. Wow, OK...


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 8, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> rooted in the politics and bureaucracy to deign the pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on.


I forgot to reply to this point, but I don't follow what you mean. It seems like you're saying that modern Taekwondo was "built on" the Palgwae series (as that's the only part you misunderstood me as deigning)?

As I understand it the Palgwae series were completed in 1967 and completely replaced (not built upon) in 1972 by the Taegeuk series. So from 1955 (taking the naming day of Taekwondo as the starting point) to 1967 and 1972 to 2021, it means we've had 61 years of not doing Palgwae poomsae (officially) vs 5 years of some* practitioners using them.

Even ignoring the time spent, given that I think everyone acknowledges that the Taegeuk are a new series and not at all based on the Palgwae series, I don't understand how you got to being the "pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on"?

Maybe you could explain what you meant by that sentence?

* My understanding from talking with senior Taekwondoin (e.g. my Kwan president) and history researchers in Korea is that the Palgwae poomsae weren't entirely accepted and practiced by all dojang in Korea, hence their wholesale replacement. I had those conversations, because if those people told me I should still learn them, I'd likely have done so.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I examined the Taegeuk series against the Chang-hon series and Shotokan's kata, but I didn't look at Palgwae.



I did. Palgwae forms were the best TaeKwonDo patterns IMO but the "Korean" influence is non existent, which is why the KKW parted with them.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> But you never adopted Sine Wave….ITF mechanics pre SW are obviously closer to the Tageuk forms than with SW.


Like that matters. I don't practice sine wave. That's a long way from saying I can't do the forms with sine wave.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising you, I agree, I could teach someone dedicated the whole Taegeuk series in a few days. But that wouldn't mean their technique would pass a grading (particularly at the higher Dan levels for assimilation).


I didn't take it as a criticism. Just pointing out my own experience is of people learning a second or third form set. Quickly. And well enough to pass at their Dan level. It's a very small sample, but worth considering.


andyjeffries said:


> Thanks for the offer, being honest I have zero interest in the Palgwae forms (as I'm a Kukkiwon and Changmookwan support, I see that poomsae series as deprecated and unofficial now) - but if I ever come over to your area of the States, I'd love to meet up.


Sure, there's no reason for you to learn them other than curiosity. We don't offer ITF rank. But I still practice the forms because I like forms.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Like that matters. I don't practice sine wave. That's a long way from saying I can't do the forms with sine wave.



Of course it matters. It's called muscle memory. You don't have any SW muscle memory to erase.


----------



## skribs (Oct 8, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I didn't take it as a criticism. Just pointing out my own experience is of people learning a second or third form set. Quickly. And well enough to pass at their Dan level. It's a very small sample, but worth considering.


We do the Kibons and "Palgwes" at my school.  (I put it in quotes because ours deviate from what I've seen online, especially at higher levels).  We're just starting to phase in the Taegeuks.

What I've seen is that with Kibon 1, it takes many students quite a lot of effort to learn it.  Especially the younger kids.  It can take some students months for it to finally click.  But then by the time they're green belts and they're learning Palgwe 2, it takes most students just a few classes to memorize the whole form.

When we started introducing the Taegeuks at green belt, it threw most of our green belts through a loop, because the footwork is very different from the Kibon/Palgwe forms.  Most of our black belts caught on pretty fast.  At least to a passable degree (as you mention).

Learning the differences in stances and chambers is taking a bit longer.


----------



## skribs (Oct 8, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you want to pop over to the States for a week, I'll bet I can teach you the Palgwae forms in a matter of days.


This is 2021.  You can do that over Zoom.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Of course it matters. It's called muscle memory. You don't have any SW muscle memory to erase.


You really have no idea how this works, obviously.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Andy is a pretty open and genuine person, and I've found that he offers his expertise where he can.  I doubt he meant any disrespect other than those formsets have zero interest to him.  I mean, I don't have any interest in them either, not because they are worthless, but I would rather spend my time training other parts of the art.


Fully agree and I have respect for Mr. Jefferies (who I do not know beyond the internet) and his contributions. I am certain he is an asset within his KKW circle.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I forgot to reply to this point, but I don't follow what you mean. It seems like you're saying that modern Taekwondo was "built on" the Palgwae series (as that's the only part you misunderstood me as deigning)?
> 
> As I understand it the Palgwae series were completed in 1967 and completely replaced (not built upon) in 1972 by the Taegeuk series. So from 1955 (taking the naming day of Taekwondo as the starting point) to 1967 and 1972 to 2021, it means we've had 61 years of not doing Palgwae poomsae (officially) vs 5 years of some* practitioners using them.
> 
> ...


Well, that is a totally baseless and opinionated statement. Yes, the Palgwe forms were created in 1967. But how can you say they were replaced when they are clearly still being practiced and used in countless dojangs? 
You are making my point about drinking the Koolaid for me. 

Look, I am not going go get into the KKW debate. I am a 5th Dan in KKW, I support them financially, utilize and leverage the KKW/WT banner in the sport side of things. I am north of 200 KKW black belts. 
But again, let's be real; if you want to talk depth in martial arts the conversation is not going to last very long in regards to KKW. 

I have no doubt you can quote the KKW by-laws better than me (outside sport rules) but c'mon man, there is a whole lot more to it than the Taegueks.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You really have no idea how this works, obviously.



Ok, I'm sure you know better who never adopted SW how hard it is to undo. How silly of me thinking someone actually did SW would know. It's the opposite of course.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Ok, I'm sure you know better who never adopted SW how hard it is to undo. How silly of me thinking someone actually did SW would know. It's the opposite of course.


What's to undo? I decide how I'm going to move. If I want to do sine wave, I can do sine wave. If I do not, I do not. Apparently you can't control your movement. That's very sad, but you're really quite inexperienced. My comments were, clearly, meant to reference people with significant amounts of training and experience.


----------



## skribs (Oct 8, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Well, that is a totally baseless and opinionated statement. Yes, the Palgwe forms were created in 1967. But how can you say they were replaced when they are clearly still being practiced and used in countless dojangs?


They were replaced within the KKW curriculum.  KKW requires Taegeuks and not Palgwes.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> What's to undo? I decide how I'm going to move. If I want to do sine wave, I can do sine wave. If I do not, I do not. Apparently you can't control your movement. That's very sad, but you're really quite inexperienced. My comments were, clearly, meant to reference people with significant amounts of training and experience.



It doesn't work that way. You will do it even If you think you aren't. Has nothing to do with control. You don't think when something is ingrained, so suddenly you have to active think to switch something off, and that will undermine the mechanics that you are trying to learn. For a while.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> . My comments were, clearly, meant to reference people with significant amounts of training and experience.



It's the complete opposite. The more you have done it, the harder it is to omit


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2021)

skribs said:


> They were replaced within the KKW curriculum.  KKW requires Taegeuks and not Palgwes.


TBC, I meant to say "they were replace in 1975".  AndyJefferies said "they were replaced" with no inference to KKW. That is taken to imply en masse, which is simply incorrect. 

This is exactly where things are misunderstood and go off the rails. I infer that sometimes we get so blinded by living inside certain walls that we completely forget there is a whole lot more going on outside of them. 

I (and others clearly) understood what he was saying but for the sake of everyone it is important to clarify something like this. 

You and I have had a similar conversation. As I recall, you were on the bashing side of KKW forms (particularly Taegueks or possibly Yudanja, I forget) and I was on the side taking up for them. And I still will in the right format.  

So, where be you? I made the argument with you because I was certain it was with someone who has/had limited experience with the forms. 
I made the argument with Mr. Jefferies for the same reason with the Palgwe's (to which he admitted). Who has the right for such a baseless argument? 
Heck, show me where KKW has a breakdown explaining the purpose of the Taeguek movements, beyond competition and I will retract my opinion. I mean a detailed purpose; not a breakdown of the physical movements which are a dime a dozen on Youtube and vary greatly. 
Show me some depth.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> It doesn't work that way. You will do it even If you think you aren't. Has nothing to do with control. You don't think when something is ingrained, so suddenly you have to active think to switch something off, and that will undermine the mechanics that you are trying to learn. For a while.





InfiniteLoop said:


> It's the complete opposite. The more you have done it, the harder it is to omit


Wrong. And wrong. And wrong again. I can easily believe that *you* don't think and merely parrot back things you do not understand. Others do not operate with the same limitation. If you work hard, someday you might get past your limitations. I wouldn't hold my breath, but it's possible.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Wrong. And wrong. And wrong again. I can easily believe that *you* don't think and merely parrot back things you do not understand. Others do not operate with the same limitation. If you work hard, someday you might get past your limitations. I wouldn't hold my breath, but it's possible.



What other arts have you trained?


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

Switching to this type of punching was not a matter days of training, even though I was a very capable puncher.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 9, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> TBC, I meant to say "they were replace in 1975".  AndyJefferies said "they were replaced" with no inference to KKW. That is taken to imply en masse, which is simply incorrect.



You're right, I wasn't clear. I was referring to the creation of new patterns, not extending/enhancing the previous series in opposition to your point about "built on", but was referring to the groups responsible for creating both sets (KTA, KKW) rather than all practitioners.



dvcochran said:


> I (and others clearly) understood what he was saying but for the sake of everyone it is important to clarify something like this.



Agree 100%



dvcochran said:


> Heck, show me where KKW has a breakdown explaining the purpose of the Taeguek movements, beyond competition and I will retract my opinion. I mean a detailed purpose; not a breakdown of the physical movements which are a dime a dozen on Youtube and vary greatly.



Lots of people say this, I think due to the hidden "secret" bunkai of Karate kata of hip throws via low block, etc. As I understand it though from deeper reading, the founders of Karate never designed the kata to have those movements, they've been later "discovered" (more likely made up). Whether that's true or not is up for debate, but surely if Funakoshi Gichin Sensei had more hidden applications for all the movements, he'd have put them in his books so they'd outlive him as he did with his techniques and philosophies.

At least Kukkiwon Taekwondo is more honest, there are no hidden purposes to Taegeuk. The moves are as described, a low block is just a low block. The purpose of poomsae practice is long-term (life-long) training, balance, co-ordination rather than practicing a secret set of Taekwondo self defence applications that you need special practice to unlock. They were never designed in there in the first place.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 9, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Lots of people say this, I think due to the hidden "secret" bunkai of Karate kata of hip throws via low block, etc. As I understand it though from deeper reading, the founders of Karate never designed the kata to have those movements, they've been later "discovered" (more likely made up). Whether that's true or not is up for debate, but surely if Funakoshi Gichin Sensei had more hidden applications for all the movements, he'd have put them in his books so they'd outlive him as he did with his techniques and philosophies.
> 
> At least Kukkiwon Taekwondo is more honest, there are no hidden purposes to Taegeuk. The moves are as described, a low block is just a low block. The purpose of poomsae practice is long-term (life-long) training, balance, co-ordination rather than practicing a secret set of Taekwondo self defence applications that you need special practice to unlock. They were never designed in there in the first place.


I fully agree with the hyped mysticism and have never subscribed to this nor inferred any of the sort.

Your post above presents many questions but let's work around just one topic. A low block is a low block as you say. So once a white belt has the mechanics down that is it right? There will be improved coordination of the block over time but they know the block, right? I will leave this here for now for you answer.

Something to chew on; which horizontal block is more natural and why? Which block is used first in the Taeguek forms? Why?

You flippantly jumped straight to me claiming 'mysticism' in forms so that you could feel like you debunked me and to dismiss me. It is certainly not mysticism but dude, there is a whole lot more going on here. 

This is the issue with staying only in a limited circle of information (in your case KKW). There is nothing to vary the equation. If it never gets unbalanced you will never really know if you have the final solution. 
Apparently, you are in circle that says forms are purely for exercise and competition (which may be true for the  taeguek's). That mindset has left many variables Out of the equation. Why? My experience is says it is because it is the easy path. It solves for a zero that is more palatable and easier to understand.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> surely if Funakoshi Gichin Sensei had more hidden applications for all the movements, he'd have put them in his books so they'd outlive him as he did with his techniques and philosophies.


He wasn't the one who designed the moves. Karate bunkai was already garbage by the time Funakoshi promoted it. Karate went from grappling oriented to striking and this undercut the katas true meaning.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 9, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Your post above presents many questions but let's work around just one topic. A low block is a low block as you say. So once a white belt has the mechanics down that is it right? There will be improved coordination of the block over time but they know the block, right? I will leave this here for now for you answer.



Pretty much for me, yes. There'll be improved co-ordination and power, etc - but they won't learn a hidden secret to a low block later from my dojang.



dvcochran said:


> Something to chew on; which horizontal block is more natural and why? Which block is used first in the Taeguek forms? Why?



From my experience teaching beginners none of the Taekwondo blocks seem natural 



dvcochran said:


> You flippantly jumped straight to me claiming 'mysticism' in forms so that you could feel like you debunked me and to dismiss me.



Whoah?! You seem to be taking everything I've said to be against you personally? This and the previous replies from you over the past couple of days. Have I said something before all of this to offend you? You seem to be jumping from a discussion level (I wouldn't even really consider this a debate) to taking my messages as if I'm flippantly trying to dismiss you. I'm genuinely not trying to do that at all! 

I respect you and while we may differ on some of our opinions, I'm just discussing how we differ in our thoughts, because it's interesting.

If I have done something before all of this (or even during all of this) to offend you, I'm genuinely sorry - it was never my intention and except that it feels (from my side) like you're going from 0-100 SUPER QUICKLY in your replies to me, it's never felt like this was anything other than discussion...


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Whoah?! You seem to be taking everything I've said to be against you personally? This and the previous replies from you over the past couple of days. Have I said something before all of this to offend you?



Nothing new under the sun. He may have been a good fighter in his day but he clearly has reading comprehension issues on this forum.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 9, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Nothing new under the sun. He may have been a good fighter in his day but he clearly has reading comprehension issues on this forum.



I just want to say I'm not a moderator here (but I am elsewhere), that type of reply doesn't help the conversation. I'm trying to ensure it all stays on a friendly (darn it, I'll say it, professional) level here and we all can discuss our different points of view without feeling like the others are attacking them. That's why I extended an apology. So while I appreciate you may feel your comment was supportive of me (and if that was your intention then I at least thank you for that intention), it won't help move the discussion back to a place where people don't feel attacked.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I just want to say I'm not a moderator here (but I am elsewhere), that type of reply doesn't help the conversation. I'm trying to ensure it all stays on a friendly (darn it, I'll say it, professional) level here and we all can discuss our different points of view without feeling like the others are attacking them. That's why I extended an apology. So while I appreciate you may feel your comment was supportive of me (and if that was your intention then I at least thank you for that intention), it won't help move the discussion back to a place where people don't feel attacked.



I was simply giving you a heads up. This won't go away. He is many times argumentative over things he simply misread. I have given up explaining the correct interpretation. 

So now you don't have to waste time asking these questions anymore.


----------



## skribs (Oct 9, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> TBC, I meant to say "they were replace in 1975".  AndyJefferies said "they were replaced" with no inference to KKW. That is taken to imply en masse, which is simply incorrect.
> 
> This is exactly where things are misunderstood and go off the rails. I infer that sometimes we get so blinded by living inside certain walls that we completely forget there is a whole lot more going on outside of them.
> 
> ...


I took it to mean they were replaced in KKW, especially in the context of him talking about KKW requirements.  

My criticisms of the forms are not unique to the Taegeuks or Yudanja.  At the time, my criticism was of the Palgwe forms.  Now that I have more exposure to the Taegeuks and the differences in the ways those techniques are done, I can actually see a little bit of what some of you are saying regarding what those techniques could be.  I still stand by my original opinion that for a form to directly teach practical application, the base version of the technique should be used as described in the form, and that the forms serve the purpose of building coordination more than teaching fighting skills.  I also still prefer the Palgwe style.

However, my previous comment was a statement of fact, not opinion.  It is a fact that the Kukkiwon requires the Taegeuks, and does not require the Palgwes.  My own opinion on any of the forms is irrelevant to that fact.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

skribs said:


> It is a fact that the Kukkiwon requires the Taegeuks, and does not require the Palgwes.  My own opinion on any of the forms is irrelevant to that fact.



Is a black belt from the 70s palgwae days still valid?


----------



## skribs (Oct 9, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Is a black belt from the 70s palgwae days still valid?


Irrelevant to the discussion of what KKW requires today.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

skribs said:


> Irrelevant to the discussion of what KKW requires today.



Eh That's what I'm asking.. You can't administer KKW certificates without Tageuk forms, right? . I'm guessing a Palgwae black belt holds no more merit than an ITF one.


----------



## skribs (Oct 9, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Eh That's what I'm asking.. You can't administer KKW certificates without Tageuk forms, right? . I'm guessing a Palgwae black belt holds no more merit than an ITF one.


You still have your black belt.  To progress further you will need to know the Taegeuks.  To promote, you're supposed to teach the Taegeuks.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 9, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Is a black belt from the 70s palgwae days still valid?


I do not know what you mean. Palgwe is a form set. The word Palgwe means (represents) the number 8. 
There is a ton of deep meaning here in regards to the trigrams.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 9, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Pretty much for me, yes. There'll be improved co-ordination and power, etc - but they won't learn a hidden secret to a low block later from my dojang.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope you have done nothing to me and I bear you on I’ll will.
It is frustrating and disappointing to someone who has been deeply involved in TKD as long as I have to hear such shallow answers and that they sound ‘okay’ to you, someone who is responsible for carrying the mantle. It reeks of a lack of depth in training.
So I will tell you what I have told Skribs many times. Get outside your current training walls. There is a great big TKD world out there. If you just drink the KKW koolaid you will miss it. 
I am passionate and fully vested in TKD. I will always defend it. Degradation is something I see more and more every day it seem like.
If you feel I was aggressive so be it, but I assure you I was not.  My apologies for any misunderstanding but my hope is to give you food for thought. To push you, and everyone else, to dive deeper.
I was a very engrained in WT in my day, making it to the 2nd round of the Olympic trials (not games) in ‘88. I have a perfect state and regional record foe 3 years. We have over 200 AAU/WT golds at our schools. So I understand the feelings of using TKD as a sport. If that is your wheelhouse that is fine and well. But represent yourself as such; not as a TKD instructor, much less a Master (I do not know your rank). 
Again, NOT being aggressive. Just stating my position and opinion from a position of experience. 
I am not trying to cause friction or I’ll will and hope this in no way offends you.
Regardless , chew on it a while and then let’s discuss it some more.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I was a very engrained in WT in my day, making it to the 2nd round of the Olympic trials (not games) in ‘88. I have a perfect state and regional record foe 3 years. We have over 200 AAU/WT golds at our schools. So I understand the feelings of using TKD as a sport. If that is your wheelhouse that is fine and well. But represent yourself as such; not as a TKD instructor, much less a Master (I do not know your rank).
> Again, NOT being aggressive. Just stating my position and opinion from a position of experience.
> I am not trying to cause friction or I’ll will and hope this in no way offends you.
> Regardless , chew on it a while and then let’s discuss it some more.



I knew dvcochran was a good fighter

You can call it psychic if you want..


----------



## skribs (Oct 9, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Nope you have done nothing to me and I bear you on I’ll will.
> It is frustrating and disappointing to someone who has been deeply involved in TKD as long as I have to hear such shallow answers and that they sound ‘okay’ to you, someone who is responsible for carrying the mantle. It reeks of a lack of depth in training.
> So I will tell you what I have told Skribs many times. Get outside your current training walls. There is a great big TKD world out there. If you just drink the KKW koolaid you will miss it.
> I am passionate and fully vested in TKD. I will always defend it. Degradation is something I see more and more every day it seem like.
> ...



At least I know I'm not the sole target of your delusional narcissistic rants.  I'm in good company if I'm in the same group as @andyjeffries .

I can't tell which part I like more.  The part where, after telling him he doesn't deserve to call himself a Master, you tell him "I hope this doesn't offend you," or the part where you tell him to chew on your "advice" and then you'll give him more of the same.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 9, 2021)

skribs said:


> At least I know I'm not the sole target of your delusional narcissistic rants.  I'm in good company if I'm in the same group as @andyjeffries .
> 
> I can't tell which part I like more.  The part where, after telling him he doesn't deserve to call himself a Master, you tell him "I hope this doesn't offend you," or the part where you tell him to chew on your "advice" and then you'll give him more of the same.


Haha!! I expect more blowback from you. That wasn't even bush league. 
I Never said he didn't deserve to be a master and clearly stated I do not know his rank. I said that what He said did not sound like a master. You are hearing what you want to hear because you do not like me, nor do you like hearing the truth sometimes. 

And why are you fighting his fights for him? I am certain he can fight his own battles and will respond in due. For that matter, there is no fight or battle. It is simply a discussion. 

So explain which parts are delusional and narcissistic? The parts you do not like; you know, the truthful parts? But I forgot, you are in the camp where a down block is taught in a matter of minutes and that is the end of it. 

I am sincere about what I said. That doesn't mean I am going to crawfish about my position. 

I never said what I would "give him more" of anything. I said reflect on what I said and let's talk some more. How is that a bad thing?

So, enlighten me with your plethora of school or business experience? Or your competition record or how many others you have helped succeed on the mat? Or work record for that matter. 
This is a Martial Arts site. People come here looking for information and other people come here to give information. Others lie somewhere in the middle. Why do you take offense to any of these?


----------



## skribs (Oct 9, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Haha!! I expect more blowback from you. That wasn't even bush league.


Believe it or not, I'm trying to be nice.


dvcochran said:


> I Never said he didn't deserve to be a master and clearly stated I do not know his rank. I said that what He said did not sound like a master. You are hearing what you want to hear because you do not like me, nor do you like hearing the truth sometimes.


You said he's clearly not one.  However, I know he is very highly ranked.  



dvcochran said:


> And why are you fighting his fights for him? I am certain he can fight his own battles and will respond in due. For that matter, there is no fight or battle. It is simply a discussion.


You brought me up.  You brought me into this.


dvcochran said:


> So explain which parts are delusional and narcissistic? The parts you do not like; you know, the truthful parts? But I forgot, you are in the camp where a down block is taught in a matter of minutes and that is the end of it.


The part where you decide you're the arbiter of Taekwondo, and that everyone should follow your advice.  You're clearly smarter than everyone, and are being sooooo generous by sharing your wisdom with us.  


dvcochran said:


> I am sincere about what I said. That doesn't mean I am going to crawfish about my position.
> 
> I never said what I would "give him more" of anything. I said reflect on what I said and let's talk some more. How is that a bad thing?


Because for you, "talk" means, "you shut up and listen to everything I say."  


dvcochran said:


> So, enlighten me with your plethora of school or business experience? Or your competition record or how many others you have helped succeed on the mat? Or work record for that matter.


See?  This is exactly what I'm talking about.  

Most of this is irrelevant to the discussion we're having.
You know you've got more experience in TKD than I do, and that business is not my strong suit (from another thread).  This is just to pump yourself up and make yourself look smart so you can force-feed me some of your "advice".
I don't know the exact number.  I haven't kept track.  I'd wager high hundreds to low thousands that I've helped succeed.  
Work record?  Irrelevant.  But since you asked, I've steadily been employed since I was 16.  For the last several years, my average work day has been from 6:30 AM to 9:30 PM, plus a few hours on Saturdays.  This might even be one area I have you beat.  If not, then for the first time on this forum you'll have impressed me.



dvcochran said:


> This is a Martial Arts site. People come here looking for information and other people come here to give information. Others lie somewhere in the middle. Why do you take offense to any of these?


My advice to you is to stop being an idiot.  Please don't take offense to that.  But just know that if you don't agree that you're an idiot, that's proof that you're an idiot, because you're not listening to me.

This is how you sound most of the time, just FYI.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 10, 2021)

skribs said:


> Believe it or not, I'm trying to be nice.
> 
> You said he's clearly not one.  However, I know he is very highly ranked.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.
If I am an idiot, I happy with my style of idiot. It has worked out very well for me.

Here is something for you the 'chew on'. If you work 15-16 hours a day 6 days/week at one job, that is a special kind of idiot. This is exactly why I included that in my question. 
There would have to be some special exceptions to change my mind on that. Let's discuss.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 10, 2021)

skribs said:


> I took it to mean they were replaced in KKW, especially in the context of him talking about KKW requirements.
> 
> My criticisms of the forms are not unique to the Taegeuks or Yudanja.  At the time, my criticism was of the Palgwe forms.  Now that I have more exposure to the Taegeuks and the differences in the ways those techniques are done, I can actually see a little bit of what some of you are saying regarding what those techniques could be.  I still stand by my original opinion that for a form to directly teach practical application, the base version of the technique should be used as described in the form, and that the forms serve the purpose of building coordination more than teaching fighting skills.  I also still prefer the Palgwe style.
> 
> However, my previous comment was a statement of fact, not opinion.  It is a fact that the Kukkiwon requires the Taegeuks, and does not require the Palgwes.  My own opinion on any of the forms is irrelevant to that fact.


I had to go back and reread this post to make sure I remembered it correctly

You are presenting a bit of a double standard are you not? On your side it is okay to stand by your opinion, but on my side I have committed the 7th sin of hell. 
C'mon man. 

But you admit you are seeing the forms differently. That is a very, very good thing. You will get there.


----------



## skribs (Oct 10, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> You are presenting a bit of a double standard are you not? On your side it is okay to stand by your opinion, but on my side I have committed the 7th sin of hell.


I have different standards for how facts and opinions should be presented.  Technically that's a double standard, but I don't see a problem with having different standard for facts and opinions.


dvcochran said:


> But you admit you are seeing the forms differently. That is a very, very good thing. You will get there.


This is what I'm talking about regarding your delusional narcissism.  You and I have different opinions on the forms.  But my opinion is "wrong" and yours is "right", and you're hoping that eventually I will be "right" by having your opinion.  And if I don't share your opinion, I need to learn to listen.  Because heaven forbid *you *learn to listen and change your mind to someone else's opinion.  


dvcochran said:


> Here is something for you the 'chew on'. If you work 15-16 hours a day 6 days/week at one job, that is a special kind of idiot. This is exactly why I included that in my question.


Ah, what a twist!  You don't work as much as I do, so you find a way to twist that into you being better than me.  Everything about you has to be how you're better than someone else, so you can talk down to them.  You grab hold of any such advantage you can.  That way when your "logic" fails, you can just point to how much better you are than them, so you must be right.

I work that much because I have two jobs.  One I have a passion for, but doesn't pay the bills, and one that allows me to have a roof and food.  The second job, I'd do for free.  I would keep doing it even if I won the lottery.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 10, 2021)

skribs said:


> This is what I'm talking about regarding your delusional narcissism. You and I have different opinions on the forms. But my opinion is "wrong" and yours is "right", and you're hoping that eventually I will be "right" by having your opinion. And if I don't share your opinion, I need to learn to listen. Because heaven forbid *you *learn to listen and change your mind to someone else's opinion.


It is not just my opinion, it is opinion of millions of others; including all the founding fathers of martial arts. 
You are the one putting yourself in this David vs. Goliath position. 


skribs said:


> Ah, what a twist! You don't work as much as I do, so you find a way to twist that into you being better than me. Everything about you has to be how you're better than someone else, so you can talk down to them. You grab hold of any such advantage you can. That way when your "logic" fails, you can just point to how much better you are than them, so you must be right.
> 
> I work that much because I have two jobs. One I have a passion for, but doesn't pay the bills, and one that allows me to have a roof and food. The second job, I'd do for free. I would keep doing it even if I won the lottery.


Aw geesh; My wife and I own 5 businesses so yeah, I am pretty sure I 'work' more than you. But that is a pretty way to measure things isn't it? 
I have gotten to where I am because I make my work do more for me than I do.

I am not better than anyone and have certainly never implied such. You did. 
I am also not afraid to get into the fray with anyone, especially in regards to work. It is a big part of our success in the control world. 

And yes, I do grab hold of any advantage. Why is that a bad thing?

I admire anyone who is willing to work hard. Even more so, I admire someone who works smart enough to not have to work hard. I imagine our scale on these two points are very different. 

If you look at teaching MA's for free in the context of a for profit dojang as okay, I suspect this is where part of your dissatisfaction is coming. 

Look, I want to be most everyone's ally. That does not mean everything will always be nice and pretty with a sweet little cherry on top.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 10, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> What other arts have you trained?


Over the last 50+ years, I have trained to some extent in 10-12 different arts. I have Dan ranking in KKW, ITF, and MDK styles of TKD.
And you?


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## jks9199 (Oct 10, 2021)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversations polite and respectful.

jks9199
MartialTalk Admin


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## skribs (Oct 10, 2021)

@dvcochran You know what?  @jks9199 is right.  I should just stop talking to you.  You have a way of bringing out the absolute worst in people.  An almost supernatural talent for it.  I should just stop clicking on "view ignored content."  I'll probably be happier that way.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 11, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Nope you have done nothing to me and I bear you on I’ll will.



OK, that's fine then. You seemed to react vitriolically every time I posted, but as long as it's coming from the right place then that's fine (it may be just me reading emotions in to text that aren't present in your intentions, so I'll now just ignore that feeling and take your words at their face value).



dvcochran said:


> It is frustrating and disappointing to someone who has been deeply involved in TKD as long as I have to hear such shallow answers and that they sound ‘okay’ to you, someone who is responsible for carrying the mantle. It reeks of a lack of depth in training.
> So I will tell you what I have told Skribs many times. Get outside your current training walls. There is a great big TKD world out there. If you just drink the KKW koolaid you will miss it.



I think this may be where we differ. You feel I've stayed in my dojang or my group of friends and therefore have a limited viewpoint. I would argue that's not the case but that I have remained within Kukkiwon, which you feel is drinking the Koolaid.

In my country (UK) it's almost 50:50 split between ITF and Kukkiwon Taekwondo. There are very few true independents that don't follow either style, but are plotting their own course.

So for me it feels as strange you saying that I should do that to expand my horizons, as someone saying "there's this tiny group in this village that plays soccer (football) but with differences in rules, closer to the old original way from the 1800's - you should learn their way of playing it to expand your horizons". Almost everyone in the world plays by the same football rules (internationally almost all Taekwondo is Kukkiwon), but doing so is drinking the FIFA Koolaid and we should not be stuck doing the same thing.

That analogy is how crazy your viewpoint feels to me.



dvcochran said:


> I am passionate and fully vested in TKD. I will always defend it. Degradation is something I see more and more every day it seem like.
> If you feel I was aggressive so be it, but I assure you I was not.  My apologies for any misunderstanding but my hope is to give you food for thought. To push you, and everyone else, to dive deeper.



This is where my analogy fits even closer for me. You're saying to dive deeper outside the official organisation for the sport/art, I feel that I've dived deeply in FIFA (Kukkiwon). I've been to Korea 8 times in the last decade, speak Korean to a conversational level and spoken with presidents of the organisations and 9th Dans with 20+ years in grade, I've spoken with current elite coaches and Kukkiwon official instructors, researchers of history. I've dived deeply within Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but don't feel the need to go outside of Kukkiwon as I'm not interested in the "other side of the aisle" (ITF Taekwon-do) and anyone outside of those two organisations feels like they're doing their own thing (and good for them, I hope they're happy but it doesn't interest me).



dvcochran said:


> I was a very engrained in WT in my day, making it to the 2nd round of the Olympic trials (not games) in ‘88. I have a perfect state and regional record foe 3 years. We have over 200 AAU/WT golds at our schools. So I understand the feelings of using TKD as a sport. If that is your wheelhouse that is fine and well. But represent yourself as such; not as a TKD instructor, much less a Master (I do not know your rank).



I definitely don't feel my wheelhouse is the sport side and you are way more ingrained than I am in it. I always say that I support Kukkiwon and Changmookwan, WT never gets a mention from me. As far as I'm concerned, WT sets the sparring rules for one aspect of our training and runs competitions for athletes at a level neither I or my students will likely ever be at. They don't define the whole of what we do, Kukkiwon does that - and Kukkiwon defines enough of a system that I don't feel the need to go outside of it. Almost all of the Kwan founders joined KTA/Kukkiwon, all of the Kwans are still represented in it.

So I don't use Taekwondo as a sport and definitely would identify myself as a Taekwondo instructor and master (rather than "coach"). I'm happy for anyone to know my rank or qualifications, it's public on my dojang's website - I'm a Changmookwan 7th Dan, Kukkiwon 6th Dan, 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor and 3rd Class Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner.


----------



## Buka (Oct 11, 2021)

We should all chill more, especially because we put so much effort into our training. Tough racket, this Martial Arts thing.

When I get into an internet argument that I actually care about for some silly reason of my own, I tend to take a really hot bath and smoke a fatty. Seems to help.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 11, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Over the last 50+ years, I have trained to some extent in 10-12 different arts. I have Dan ranking in KKW, ITF, and MDK styles of TKD.
> And you?



That's the same art known as TaeKwonDo. What are the other 11?

I have done the cute little sport below  and TaeKwonDo.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 11, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> OK, that's fine then. You seemed to react vitriolically every time I posted, but as long as it's coming from the right place then that's fine (it may be just me reading emotions in to text that aren't present in your intentions, so I'll now just ignore that feeling and take your words at their face value).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cannot speak to the ITF/KKW ratio in the UK and accept your word on it. But this increases the weight of my statement' there is more out there'. And where does Changmookwan fit into your 50/50 equation? Especially if it is in your 'variant' category? Do you continue to train and teach Changmookwan curriculum? IF so, is any of this different from KKW 'curriculum'?

Who said anything about an 1800's style of anything? That is a strawman analogy you are trying to create. 

I am not sure you have the breadth to accept this but it is not like any style of any system is doing anything explicitly new. Instead martial arts as a whole are slowly becoming an amalgamation of all past styles. Including, refining, and conforming techniques from all over. In this regard KKW/WT does a good job of holding it's own and staying unique. Not always good, correct, or applicable but unique. In this respect, they are the outlier. 

The 'tiny group of villagers' you refer to is much larger than you think. And don't all styles do 'the same thing' in regards to their specific curriculum? The horizon I refer to is the MA horizon as a whole. 
If a person feels compelled to stay ingratiated in one specific area and chase stars, stripes, belts, and certification in that one area that is all great and good. I get it. I have been there. But I eventually figured out that if a person is not very careful all this really accomplishes is feeding someone else purse. And another token on your wall. 

It is great that you take your time and resources to travel to Korea. It is truly a gift not many people get to experience. 
I am with Koreans literally everyday and have never felt compelled or pushed to learn the language beyond the technical terms in 38 years. So believe me when I say knowing how to speak Korean is not some blinding qualifier. Especially when you consider the gravity of your statement that a down block can be learned in a matter minutes. 

Let's be honest and understand this is not specifically about you or me. It is instead about what we leave behind. 

If your primary focus is as a KKW historian, all I can say it is not a very deep subject and already hard to follow in some areas. But if that is your wheelhouse, great. 
If your school has nothing to do with WT what do you do for pressure testing? Naturally, there are other ways to accomplish this but I am not familiar with any of it in the (loosely defined) KKW curriculum. Hopefully you can expand on this. 

To expand on the 'stars and stripes' subject;
I am 7th Dan MDK and was able to test under Gm Jae Kyu Chon before his passing. I doubt you understand the gravity of this honor. My direct GM is a direct student of Hwang Kee. I doubt you understand this either. 
My 4th Dan KKW promotion was in 1994. I did not promote to 5th Dan until 2019; you can do the math on where I could be in terms of rank. This was a combination of my own personal choice and injuries. I have included my certificate numbers for both on MT before so they are readily available to anyone.
I am a 3rd class Master Instructor and Poom/Dan examiner. Both of these were somewhat pushed on me and I have no plans to continue beyond 2nd class MI. This is largely a money grab for people who have not been in a good program/curriculum. 

I am BB under Tuhon Bill McGrath in Kali.
I am sashed in Kung Fu under Rusty Gray. 
I am belted in Shotokan and have done a fair amount of training in several other styles. 
I mentioned my WT history but will also include I had a pretty good PKA record.

I now understand you do not use TKD as a sport. So what is it you call what you do? Do you include what you do under the 'Martial Arts' moniker? If so how to do you reconcile the first word (Martial)? This is a very big question. 

Again, please understand I am not trying to make enemies here. But I am trying to understand what you do.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 11, 2021)

skribs said:


> @dvcochran You know what?  @jks9199 is right.  I should just stop talking to you.  You have a way of bringing out the absolute worst in people.  An almost supernatural talent for it.  I should just stop clicking on "view ignored content."  I'll probably be happier that way.


You may 'feel' happier. But you need to hear some of this stuff. Face it; we all do at times.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 11, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Eh That's what I'm asking.. You can't administer KKW certificates without Tageuk forms, right? . I'm guessing a Palgwae black belt holds no more merit than an ITF one.



As far as I know, Kukkiwon doesn't distinguish between a black belt earned by performing Taegeuk forms and one earned by performing Palgwe forms. 

However, they have recently started requiring that all instructors who test their students for black belt and submit the results to KKW need to have passed the KKW foreign master course, and in order to pass that course, they need to be able to perform the Taegeuk forms.

I suppose, theoretically, you could pass the master course and still teach Palgwe forms to your students. KKW isn't going to send an inspector to your school to check.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 11, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> As far as I know, Kukkiwon doesn't distinguish between a black belt earned by performing Taegeuk forms and one earned by performing Palgwe forms.
> 
> However, they have recently started requiring that all instructors who test their students for black belt and submit the results to KKW need to have passed the KKW foreign master course, and in order to pass that course, they need to be able to perform the Taegeuk forms.
> 
> I suppose, theoretically, you could pass the master course and still teach Palgwe forms to your students. KKW isn't going to send an inspector to your school to check.


It has been my experience that most TKD schools teach some other form set along with the Taegueks and Yudanja forms such as the Pinon (Pyong Ahn,) Palgwe, or even ITF sets.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 11, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> That's the same art known as TaeKwonDo.


Once again, your very limited knowledge exposes itself. They are three different arts and although they do share some common roots, they most certainly are not the same.


InfiniteLoop said:


> What are the other 11?


Doesn't really matter.


InfiniteLoop said:


> I have done the cute little sport below  and TaeKwonDo.


For what, a few months?


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 12, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot speak to the ITF/KKW ratio in the UK and accept your word on it. But this increases the weight of my statement' there is more out there'. And where does Changmookwan fit into your 50/50 equation? Especially if it is in your 'variant' category? Do you continue to train and teach Changmookwan curriculum? IF so, is any of this different from KKW 'curriculum'?



Changmookwan (as per all of the other Kwans still HQ'd in South Korea) supports Kukkiwon curriculum 100%, no differences in technique or poomsae sets learnt/taught.



dvcochran said:


> Who said anything about an 1800's style of anything? That is a strawman analogy you are trying to create.



It's an analogy, it's not perfect, but it fits my mindset and therefore may be useful in explaining where I'm coming from. I wasn't setting it up as a strawman argument.



dvcochran said:


> I am not sure you have the breadth to accept this but it is not like any style of any system is doing anything explicitly new. Instead martial arts as a whole are slowly becoming an amalgamation of all past styles. Including, refining, and conforming techniques from all over. In this regard KKW/WT does a good job of holding it's own and staying unique. Not always good, correct, or applicable but unique. In this respect, they are the outlier.



True, but even they are moving towards BJJ/MMA style techniques in the latest self-defence syllabus.



dvcochran said:


> The 'tiny group of villagers' you refer to is much larger than you think.



Again, I can only talk from my experience. That is the UK (where there is minimal non-ITF/TAGB and non-Kukkiwon), international courses run by Kukkiwon and visits to dojangs during vacations (but generally they're already people I know from courses or forums like this one).



dvcochran said:


> And don't all styles do 'the same thing' in regards to their specific curriculum? The horizon I refer to is the MA horizon as a whole.
> If a person feels compelled to stay ingratiated in one specific area and chase stars, stripes, belts, and certification in that one area that is all great and good. I get it. I have been there. But I eventually figured out that if a person is not very careful all this really accomplishes is feeding someone else purse. And another token on your wall.



I guess it depends what you're looking for.



dvcochran said:


> It is great that you take your time and resources to travel to Korea. It is truly a gift not many people get to experience.



100%, I feel very lucky that I'm in a situation to be able to do so.



dvcochran said:


> I am with Koreans literally everyday and have never felt compelled or pushed to learn the language beyond the technical terms in 38 years. So believe me when I say knowing how to speak Korean is not some blinding qualifier.



I never thought it was. You seemed to be claiming that I was sport based, I was giving my qualifications only from that point of view - to show that I am more Kukkiwon and Kwan focused than sport focused.

I learnt Korean because on the first Kukkiwon master course, it felt like the translations given during the lectures were abbreviated versions. I wanted the whole detail. So that's why I learnt Korean, so during conversations with Kwan presidents, Kukkiwon presidents and seniors in Kukkiwon Taekwondo I could converse in their language rather than requiring a translator that may miss some of the subtlety depend on words used.



dvcochran said:


> Let's be honest and understand this is not specifically about you or me. It is instead about what we leave behind.



I absolutely agree with that, and think we have a similar viewpoint on that, that it's not about us - we just disagree on the best way to achieve that.



dvcochran said:


> If your primary focus is as a KKW historian, all I can say it is not a very deep subject and already hard to follow in some areas. But if that is your wheelhouse, great.



It is. It's hard to follow which makes it fun.



dvcochran said:


> If your school has nothing to do with WT what do you do for pressure testing? Naturally, there are other ways to accomplish this but I am not familiar with any of it in the (loosely defined) KKW curriculum. Hopefully you can expand on this.



Just to be clear, we do WT sparring rules as I previously said, but there are lots of dojangs that are VERY sparring based, whereas for our dojang it's maybe 20% of what we do. I was saying that I don't consider myself (identify as, to use current phraseology) a World Taekwondo Instructor, but a Kukkiwon/Changmookwan Instructor.



dvcochran said:


> To expand on the 'stars and stripes' subject;
> I am 7th Dan MDK and was able to test under Gm Jae Kyu Chon before his passing. I doubt you understand the gravity of this honor. My direct GM is a direct student of Hwang Kee. I doubt you understand this either.



I am unaware of your examiner, but I'm well aware of GM Hwang Kee (having learnt all about the Kwans). I don't understand why you'd think I wouldn't understand that?

Before I get in to the latter parts of this, my qualifications as I said above were to demonstrate that I'm Kukkiwon focused rather than WT (e.g. I didn't mention anything about WT coaching courses which I've never attended, and haven't stopped at relatively low rank which a lot of WT focused coaches do, because they don't see the point in higher rank). It wasn't intended as a genitalia measuring contest...



dvcochran said:


> My 4th Dan KKW promotion was in 1994. I did not promote to 5th Dan until 2019; you can do the math on where I could be in terms of rank.



For anyone else interested, this means he could be Kukkiwon 8th Dan now.



dvcochran said:


> This was a combination of my own personal choice and injuries. I have included my certificate numbers for both on MT before so they are readily available to anyone.
> I am a 3rd class Master Instructor and Poom/Dan examiner. Both of these were somewhat pushed on me and I have no plans to continue beyond 2nd class MI. This is largely a money grab for people who have not been in a good program/curriculum.



Out of interest, why were they pushed on you and by whom?

Your experience of those course may be very different to mine (or similar to one of mine). When I have attended the master instructor course in Korea twice, it was awesome. It was relatively cheap to attend, full of great instructors and lots of detail/information that I hadn't had in such a concentrated form before, ensured I kept up to date with latest changes, awesome networking opportunity, etc.

When I attended the Examiner course in Austria though (where they sent a few instructors to teach the whole thing), it was less than positive. The course title gave it so much potential, but in reality it was a cut down master course with a lot of time spent having the rules read to us. My diary (it's online) of the course pretty much slates it.

So where did you take your courses? My prediction was you took them in America, meaning they're likely to be closer to the course I took in Austria (and hence I can understand your viewpoint much more), and I believe if you took them in Korea you'd have a different experience.



dvcochran said:


> I am BB under Tuhon Bill McGrath in Kali.
> I am sashed in Kung Fu under Rusty Gray.
> I am belted in Shotokan and have done a fair amount of training in several other styles.
> I mentioned my WT history but will also include I had a pretty good PKA record.



That's good, I'm sure it makes you very well rounded. Expanding those viewpoints to other arts is great. It's just not something that interest me.



dvcochran said:


> I now understand you do not use TKD as a sport. So what is it you call what you do? Do you include what you do under the 'Martial Arts' moniker? If so how to do you reconcile the first word (Martial)? This is a very big question.



I would call it martial arts, however, we may disagree on what that means. For me, martial arts or more strictly "martial ways" (Mudo, 무도) means the journey of self-improvement via combat techniques. It isn't intended that you be able to kill a soldier on the battlefield, nor that it guarantees you success in an on-the-street engagement (improved chances, but not perfect defence) - it's about making you a better person, the world a better place, via training in specific techniques aimed with some amount of combat direction (regardless of how realistic they are).

So the way we train, the atmosphere we provide, and the syllabus we use all contribute to fulfilling that definition.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 12, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Changmookwan (as per all of the other Kwans still HQ'd in South Korea) supports Kukkiwon curriculum 100%, no differences in technique or poomsae sets learnt/taught.


Changmookwan does not have it's own form set or skill set? Just curious because I am not familiar with it outside historical purposes. 


andyjeffries said:


> Again, I can only talk from my experience. That is the UK (where there is minimal non-ITF/TAGB and non-Kukkiwon), international courses run by Kukkiwon and visits to dojangs during vacations (but generally they're already people I know from courses or forums like this one).


It is very different in all the Americas and beyond. And, as you said, the Kwans are still practiced in Korea; even though more from a historical perspective. 


andyjeffries said:


> I never thought it was. You seemed to be claiming that I was sport based, I was giving my qualifications only from that point of view - to show that I am more Kukkiwon and Kwan focused than sport focused.
> 
> I learnt Korean because on the first Kukkiwon master course, it felt like the translations given during the lectures were abbreviated versions. I wanted the whole detail. So that's why I learnt Korean, so during conversations with Kwan presidents, Kukkiwon presidents and seniors in Kukkiwon Taekwondo I could converse in their language rather than requiring a translator that may miss some of the subtlety depend on words used.


I simply asked the question for clarification. This clears up a lot. 


andyjeffries said:


> It is. It's hard to follow which makes it fun.





andyjeffries said:


> Just to be clear, we do WT sparring rules as I previously said, but there are lots of dojangs that are VERY sparring based, whereas for our dojang it's maybe 20% of what we do. I was saying that I don't consider myself (identify as, to use current phraseology) a World Taekwondo Instructor, but a Kukkiwon/Changmookwan Instructor.


Yes, I am aware of the Full on WT gyms. There a many of them here but I would also call it uncommon here for someone to actively separate WT and KKW in their standard model. 
Some of these gyms (like ours) also train the high level Poomsae and Hanmadang competitors.  Where do these fall in your model?
In regular classes I would say we do about 25-30% sparring but there is other pressure testing throughout class such as one/two/three - steps which we do by working up to  near full speed and at high pressure, finishing the technique to the ground or to the walk away. So we pad up much like sparring. 
Outside regular classes we have sparring only (WT style) slots for our competitors. 


andyjeffries said:


> I am unaware of your examiner, but I'm well aware of GM Hwang Kee (having learnt all about the Kwans). I don't understand why you'd think I wouldn't understand that?
> 
> Before I get in to the latter parts of this, my qualifications as I said above were to demonstrate that I'm Kukkiwon focused rather than WT (e.g. I didn't mention anything about WT coaching courses which I've never attended, and haven't stopped at relatively low rank which a lot of WT focused coaches do, because they don't see the point in higher rank). It wasn't intended as a genitalia measuring contest...


Fully agree. If your history passion follows the Kwans it should be easy for you to source GM Chon. Chon should not be much harder to follow than Kee, granted Kee has much more public history, and controversy. 
I get that Jae Kyu Chon has no relevance to your own MA's path. 


andyjeffries said:


> Out of interest, why were they pushed on you and by whom?
> 
> Your experience of those course may be very different to mine (or similar to one of mine). When I have attended the master instructor course in Korea twice, it was awesome. It was relatively cheap to attend, full of great instructors and lots of detail/information that I hadn't had in such a concentrated form before, ensured I kept up to date with latest changes, awesome networking opportunity, etc.
> 
> ...


This is an area where I get the sense we vary greatly because of our geographic locations. In the US, there is still a ton of direct lineage Korean instructors. People who interact with the Korean base and have as much, if not more influence in several areas of WT/KKW. This make the 'need' for extended courses like the Master course less important or needed. However, many of these instructors are getting rather long in the tooth. So my GM and others in my area actively 'push' certain instructors to take the courses. 
From my experience, the courses have been much like what you describe. The material was detailed and well covered and there was little to no communication issues.  The instructors could not have been any better. Overall great experiences but they are a intended to fulfill a course so like most others so they are naturally driven by agenda.
I think where this also differs is we have to deal with the Korean communication and social interaction 'struggles' every day so we may be more conditioned to it. 
The courses are relatively low cost outside the travel and lost time away from other things, which is burden on me with everything we have going on.
If I can avoid them I have no desire to do the classes again since they are really incorporate nothing we are not already doing. 



andyjeffries said:


> I would call it martial arts, however, we may disagree on what that means. For me, martial arts or more strictly "martial ways" (Mudo, 무도) means the journey of self-improvement via combat techniques. It isn't intended that you be able to kill a soldier on the battlefield, nor that it guarantees you success in an on-the-street engagement (improved chances, but not perfect defence) - it's about making you a better person, the world a better place, via training in specific techniques aimed with some amount of combat direction (regardless of how realistic they are).
> 
> So the way we train, the atmosphere we provide, and the syllabus we use all contribute to fulfilling that definition.


Yes, Mudo means self improvement Through combat techniques. As a historian I thought you may have already studied the more applied meaning of the word through Korea's combat history. 
It is almost Zen in application, where a soldier is trained such that they can Only improve through good (glorious is the term they use) combat techniques. Much more is packed into this but that is the gist. This is the meaning of Martial Arts. We modify only to fit into modern society, not to water down the technique and especially not to change the application
In your latter description we are 100% on the same page. We strongly adhere to the trigram of body/mind/spirit philosophy.  We tie the Spirit pillar very strongly to Christianity. In application, not as big a jump from Buddhism or Confucianism as you may think.  
I do think it a slippery slop when one takes a snippet of the true meaning of something so that it fits their preferred agenda. 

I am very glad we completed this discussion. It has been very satisfying and informative for me. 
I appreciate you taking the time. 

I also hope this is a productive model for others here on the forum. 

Yours in the Martial Spirit,

David Cochran


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 12, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Once again, your very limited knowledge exposes itself. They are three different arts and although they do share some common roots, they most certainly are not the same.


I think a martial arts branch that accepts black belt transfers is the same martial art. Furthermore, your reference to 3 is *completely arbitrary.*


Dirty Dog said:


> For what, a few months?



I boxed the ears off my fellow TKDoins for 4 years before finally joining a boxing gym for a few months + 3 years at home on and off. It's hard to quantify exactly how much it amounts to.

For what it's worth, people who have boxed hundreds of fights think I'm above journey man level and would pay to see me get in the ring. And that's both neutral and hateful observers. I have also been labelled the gold standard of Boxing in TaeKwonDo. As for my chin, I have been round kicked square in the jaw without a mouth piece. Didn't move. But it did feel like a dislocation of the jaw (it wasn't though).

I also got knocked down by a balcony when looking into the phone. Got up, dusted myself off, and went into a store when the security guard stopped me said  that there's blood gushing out of my forehead and took a picture of me. He looked at me like as if I was an alien visiting with a bleeding forehead.

My friend who lived in the corner drove me to the hospital and told me a very comforting story about a man getting hit to the head by a golf ball and died a couple of minutes later


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 12, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I am very glad we completed this discussion. It has been very satisfying and informative for me.
> I appreciate you taking the time.
> 
> I also hope this is a productive model for others here on the forum.
> ...



Just replying to this bit first, I absolutely agree!



dvcochran said:


> Changmookwan does not have it's own form set or skill set? Just curious because I am not familiar with it outside historical purposes.



No, from my understanding all of the Kwans in Korea support the Kukkiwon syllabus 100%. I've spoken to seniors in Changmookwan, Chungdokwan and Ohdokwan and all of them do the Kukkiwon syllabus 100% and don't add in any other form set or skill set. I haven't specifically spoken to anyone from MDK about their official answer to this question, so if you say MDK officially requires other poomsae or techniques than Kukkiwon official ones, that's very interesting. 

In fact most disturbing to me was when I had picked up a Dan certificate from Changmookwan during the day while in Korea and happened to go straight to a friend's dojang in the evening. I showed some of his students the certificate and none of them knew what the Kwans were. I had to explain the basics of Taekwondo history to them. They all just consider themselves Kukkiwon Taekwondoin.



dvcochran said:


> It is very different in all the Americas and beyond. And, as you said, the Kwans are still practiced in Korea; even though more from a historical perspective.



I think people tend to still think there are Kwan differences, but if you go to Korea and speak to the current presidents they all seem to say that they support Kukkiwon syllabus 100%, do the techniques the exact same way and only exist as a familial society and dan ranking for members. That said, maybe MDK is different though.



dvcochran said:


> Some of these gyms (like ours) also train the high level Poomsae and Hanmadang competitors.  Where do these fall in your model?



We do modern sport poomsae training the same as we do some sparring using modern methods, but specific sport training for either aspect is not a main focus of ours. We don't currently do anything Hanmadang specifically, but our founder was a Hanmadang referee, so maybe one day we will (although he's passed away now).



dvcochran said:


> In regular classes I would say we do about 25-30% sparring but there is other pressure testing throughout class such as one/two/three - steps which we do by working up to  near full speed and at high pressure, finishing the technique to the ground or to the walk away. So we pad up much like sparring.
> Outside regular classes we have sparring only (WT style) slots for our competitors.



Very interesting. We also do step sparring and self defence training (including grappling) as per current Kukkiwon syllabus. We don't wear pads though, that's a good thought.



dvcochran said:


> Fully agree. If your history passion follows the Kwans it should be easy for you to source GM Chon. Chon should not be much harder to follow than Kee, granted Kee has much more public history, and controversy.
> I get that Jae Kyu Chon has no relevance to your own MA's path.



Ahhh, OK, now I've found who he is. Former MDK president. That's cool. I like when I've Dan tested with people that mean something (to me personally or in the wider Taekwondo world) rather than just high ranking practitioners.



dvcochran said:


> This is an area where I get the sense we vary greatly because of our geographic locations. In the US, there is still a ton of direct lineage Korean instructors. People who interact with the Korean base and have as much, if not more influence in several areas of WT/KKW.



That's the thing, I think a lot of the differences between the Kwans as practiced in America (and to a lesser, but still somewhat, extent internationally) is due to those early instructors that left Korea to teach abroad, but didn't keep up with the standardisation that happened in Korea. Some do, for sure, for example MDK's Secretary General was taking his 1st Class Master certificate when I did my 2nd Class, but it's my theory on why there are so many people that attend the Kukkiwon courses but are so far removed from current standards in technique.



dvcochran said:


> This make the 'need' for extended courses like the Master course less important or needed. However, many of these instructors are getting rather long in the tooth. So my GM and others in my area actively 'push' certain instructors to take the courses.



Ahh fair enough, that makes a lot of sense.



dvcochran said:


> From my experience, the courses have been much like what you describe. The material was detailed and well covered and there was little to no communication issues.  The instructors could not have been any better. Overall great experiences but they are a intended to fulfill a course so like most others so they are naturally driven by agenda.
> I think where this also differs is we have to deal with the Korean communication and social interaction 'struggles' every day so we may be more conditioned to it.



Hahaha, I know what you mean by struggles ;-) 

Anyway, feels like we're much more on the same page and I'm glad we got to discuss these details and get to know each other a little more.


----------



## J. Pickard (Oct 12, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Once again, your very limited knowledge exposes itself. They are three different arts and although they do share some common roots, they most certainly are not the same.
> 
> Doesn't really matter.
> 
> For what, a few months?


You're wasting your time with this guy. I keep seeing his posts pop up on various threads and his knowledge of...well pretty much everything he talks about is barely surface level at best. It's like trying to explain advanced English literature to a person with a 5 year old's grasp of the language.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 12, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> You're wasting your time with this guy. I keep seeing his posts pop up on various threads and his knowledge of...well pretty much everything he talks about is barely surface level at best. It's like trying to explain advanced English literature to a person with a 5 year old's grasp of the languag



The things I ask about are surface level, hence why I ask. This topic about switching styles isn't  mine.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 12, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Changmookwan does not have it's own form set or skill set? Just curious because I am not familiar with it outside historical purposes.


There are several Chang Moo Kwan lineage practitioners here in the USA that continue to practice the older curriculum which included the Chuan Fa forms like Do Ju San, etc.  They also do the usual karate lineage hyung like Bassae Dae and Chul Gi.  Moreover, I understand that GM Nam Suk Lee had his own forms, whether of his creation or not, that he taught to his last American students.

I don't know much beyond that.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 12, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Just replying to this bit first, I absolutely agree!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A search reveals that there are forms specific to Changmookwan. Other people here have confirmed this. 
If you do not follow another curriculum but only follow the KKW curriculum what does a person do to promote in CMK (you said 7th Dan)? That is rather confusing. 
I have trained in many schools and other Kwan schools who all had their own curriculum and many of them also included the KKW curriculum as a Compliment, not a replacement. 
MDK for example has a specific set of gup rank forms and BB forms and curriculum.

One of the main advantages in aligning with WT For tournaments.
KKW is the only entity claiming they are the only TKD. This is exactly what happened to TSD and to a lesser degree MDK. 
That thinking it ripe for implosion.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 12, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> There are several Chang Moo Kwan lineage practitioners here in the USA that continue to practice the older curriculum which included the Chuan Fa forms like Do Ju San, etc.  They also do the usual karate lineage hyung like Bassae Dae and Chul Gi.  Moreover, I understand that GM Nam Suk Lee had his own forms, whether of his creation or not, that he taught to his last American students.
> 
> I don't know much beyond that.


The Kwan schools I am been to all had their own form sets. The idea that they are somehow null and void because of KKW is just not correct.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 12, 2021)

After all the back and forth I had to go into my notes and research this:

Oh Do Kwan - Chon Ji forms
Chung Do Kwan - Pinon (Pyong-Ahn)
Moo Duk Kwan - Pinon (Pyong-Ahn) & Palgwe
Ji Do Kwan - Has their own Tae Guek forms (different spelling, different forms)
Chang Moo Kwan - Chaun-fa forms
Song Moo Kwan - Chung Bong Hyungs
Han Moo Kwan - Is from Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kwon Bop Bu so likely does Tae Guek forms but could not confirm.
Jung Do Kwan - Pinon (Pyong-Ahn) forms
Kang Du Won - Not certain but I believe does Chon Ji forms

Most have their own BB forms and most use the old form naming of Hyung's.  

There is no argument that many schools also follow KKW in forms and WT in competition but only as a Compliment to, not a replacement of. 
You just cannot magically erase the past. 
I hope this clears a few things up for some folks.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 13, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> There are several Chang Moo Kwan lineage practitioners here in the USA that continue to practice the older curriculum which included the Chuan Fa forms like Do Ju San, etc.  They also do the usual karate lineage hyung like Bassae Dae and Chul Gi.  Moreover, I understand that GM Nam Suk Lee had his own forms, whether of his creation or not, that he taught to his last American students.
> 
> I don't know much beyond that.



I think this is right, they do older forms that are no longer official Changmookwan because they learnt them and want to keep them alive, even though Changmookwan in Korea follows Kukkiwon syllabus now and no longer practices them.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 13, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> A search reveals that there are forms specific to Changmookwan. Other people here have confirmed this.



I think @dancingalone is right, some practitioners (in the USA) continue to practice the older curriculum, which likely was around before the standardisation efforts and either choose not to standardise or simply aren't aware that the Kwans no longer do those forms.



dvcochran said:


> If you do not follow another curriculum but only follow the KKW curriculum what does a person do to promote in CMK (you said 7th Dan)? That is rather confusing.



You perform the Kukkiwon requirements for that rank but either in front of your direct instructor, the President or a panel of Changmookwan masters of one dan rank higher than the grade you're going for. It's the same requirements as the Kukkiwon promotion, but it's just less official (but to some of us means more, because our Kwan is our family).

My 6th Dan Changmookwan was given to me directly by the current Changmookwan President, Grandmaster Kim, Joong-young. There was no test, but he'd seen my poomsae and was happy for me to have that rank. My 7th Dan was given to me by my instructor Grandmaster Pan, Sim-woon after a test at my dojang. My 8th Dan (due to take Q1 next year) was supposed to be in front of Grandmaster Kim and the Changmookwan high dan panel, but given Covid restrictions may actually be performed via video now (which is the same as Kukkiwon now requires for 6th and 7th Dan).



dvcochran said:


> I have trained in many schools and other Kwan schools who all had their own curriculum and many of them also included the KKW curriculum as a Compliment, not a replacement.



That still fits with my theory, international instructors that feel the need to keep the old ways alive while in fact Korea unified and the current Kwan leaders do 100% Kukkiwon standard Taekwondo with no additional patterns.



dvcochran said:


> MDK for example has a specific set of gup rank forms and BB forms and curriculum.
> 
> KKW is the only entity claiming they are the only TKD. This is exactly what happened to TSD and to a lesser degree MDK.
> That thinking it ripe for implosion.



I don't think they do claim they are the only Taekwondo. When I attended World Taekwondo Leaders Forum they spoke about being inclusive to other Taekwondo styles and helping them if they want to join Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon's view is that it's a vehicle for unification not  just absorption. For that reason I don't think it is ripe for implosion. There's no real power play here to try to grab all of the Taekwondo in the world, just an open offer - join us.

To be clear as well, Kukkiwon always says that their syllabus for gradings is the minimum required and dojangs are welcome to add their own content in too. For some that may be extra pattern sets, others (almost all?) add in self-defence and step-sparring.

That may feel like a contradiction (given this thread), but to be clear - I choose not to add extra sets of forms in to our gradings because the Kukkiwon doesn't teach them and neither does my Kwan (nor others still HQ'd in Korea that I've spoken to), but it's fine by Kukkiwon if others do and still give Kukkiwon rank.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 13, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I think a martial arts branch that accepts black belt transfers is the same martial art.


You seem to think a lot of silly things. Perhaps the part where it was mentioned that you have to learn the appropriate curriculum?


InfiniteLoop said:


> Furthermore, your reference to 3 is *completely arbitrary.*


They have different founders, different orgs, different form sets, perform techniques in similar, but certainly not identical ways (although, granted, the differences might be difficult for someone like you  to pick up on). Yeah, that's arbitrary... #facepalm


InfiniteLoop said:


> I boxed the ears off my fellow TKDoins for 4 years before finally joining a boxing gym for a few months + 3 years at home on and off. It's hard to quantify exactly how much it amounts to.


So, not very much.

[Additional silliness deleted]


----------



## MadMartigan (Oct 13, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> You perform the Kukkiwon requirements for that rank but either in front of your direct instructor, the President or a panel of Changmookwan masters of one dan rank higher than the grade you're going for. It's the same requirements as the Kukkiwon promotion, but it's just less official (but to some of us means more, because our Kwan is our family).


As an independent out in 'bug-tussle' rural canada, I have to say I'm confused also.
What it seems to me like you're saying breaks down something along the lines of:
- Grade for 7th Dan CMK (or other Kukiwan affiliated org) by performing the KKW requirements for 7th Dan.
- Pass this exam for 7th, receive CMK rank, but only receive 6th Dan from KKW (not the 7th Dan you just tested for).

Is there a separate exam date with different examiners for each of these ranks, or does the promotion happen concurrently from the same exam?

If you have met the KKW requirements for 7th in front of qualified examiners, and if there truly are no differences in curriculum, what is the point of the rank distinction?

(Honestly curious. I believe there must be a reason. I just can't for the life of me think of what it might be).


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 13, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> As an independent out in 'bug-tussle' rural canada, I have to say I'm confused also.
> What it seems to me like you're saying breaks down something along the lines of:
> - Grade for 7th Dan CMK (or other Kukiwan affiliated org) by performing the KKW requirements for 7th Dan.
> - Pass this exam for 7th, receive CMK rank, but only receive 6th Dan from KKW (not the 7th Dan you just tested for).
> ...


I suspect you're interpreting it backwards.
The Kwan may use the same form set, but at a different level. 
So you do the KKW curriculum for X Dan. But that curriculum is X+1 Dan by the Kwan standards. Or it could be X-1 Dan by the Kwan standards.
In our MDK branch, we use X-1 Dan. So a student has to know the curriculum up to and including Koryo to test for 1st Dan. The student who passes is awarded a 1st Dan from either the KKW or the MDK, their choice.
It's important to remember that the KKW curriculum is considered the *minimum* standard. There's nothing that says you can't add more, or (in this case) adjust rank requirements.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 13, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> As an independent out in 'bug-tussle' rural canada, I have to say I'm confused also.



Sorry about that, I'll try to clear it up.



MadMartigan said:


> What it seems to me like you're saying breaks down something along the lines of:
> - Grade for 7th Dan CMK (or other Kukiwan affiliated org) by performing the KKW requirements for 7th Dan.
> - Pass this exam for 7th, receive CMK rank, but only receive 6th Dan from KKW (not the 7th Dan you just tested for).



OK, so the Kwans (I'm talking in general terms, but definitely specifically CMK) allow you to have one rank above your Kukkiwon rank (only in exceptional circumstances will they break that rule).

So when I tested for 7th Dan CMK, I effectively tested using the 7th Dan syllabus for Kukkiwon (which CMK supports 100%) and the 6th Dan Kukkiwon syllabus combined in to one single test. My instructor then applied for both ranks for me with each body.

My instructor felt that going one above Kukkiwon rank with Kwan rank is used for when you have missed tests, to get you where you should have been on your journey. I don't know if Changmookwan HQ feels the same, but I'll ask next time I visit them.



MadMartigan said:


> Is there a separate exam date with different examiners for each of these ranks, or does the promotion happen concurrently from the same exam?



As above concurrently with the same exam. It could be done with different examiners on different dates, but in reality Changmookwan GMs are also Kukkiwon GMs or high dan holders, so the same test can suffice for both.



MadMartigan said:


> If you have met the KKW requirements for 7th in front of qualified examiners, and if there truly are no differences in curriculum, what is the point of the rank distinction?



As above, I missed lots of Kukkiwon test opportunities, eventually receiving a jump dan for one rank, but I was still behind where I should have been.  The Changmookwan President felt I warranted one rank above my Kukkiwon for where I should be.

There is no real rank distinction, one is of the official Kukkiwon rank, the other is an "as your family we consider you X Dan" sort of rank. Both have meaning for me, and it's really common to have both, at least in senior Taekwondoin (modern generation in Korea just has Kukkiwon). The seniors in Korea love it when we as international Taekwondoin still show respect and love for the Kwans by maintaining our relationship and having Kwan rank.



MadMartigan said:


> (Honestly curious. I believe there must be a reason. I just can't for the life of me think of what it might be).



Hope that helps, but if you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer.


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 13, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> They have different founders, different orgs, different form sets, perform techniques in similar, but certainly not identical ways (although, granted, the differences might be difficult for someone like you  to pick up on). Yeah, that's arbitrary... #facepalm
> 
> So, not very much.
> 
> [Additional silliness deleted]



You my friend are on the record saying that there is no difference between the  Dollyo Chagi in ITF and KKW and that it is the same art


----------



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 13, 2021)

Maybe he changed his mind. No crime...



Dirty Dog said:


> Really? They're not the same art?
> Wow... how did I earn Dan rankings in both ITF- and KKW-style Taekwondo (WTF is not a style, just FYI, it is a governing body for a sport) without noticing that?


Hmmm....


Dirty Dog said:


> What they are, is different styles *within the same art*. Styles with far more shared traits than different.
> 
> Damn, I had no idea I knew so many different arts! The WTF, not being a style, doesn't define any techniques.
> *The KKW, on the other hand, does indeed have roudhouse kicks that are done quite precisely the same way as those done in the ITF.*



What can I say? Don't run for office...


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 13, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I think @dancingalone is right, some practitioners (in the USA) continue to practice the older curriculum, which likely was around before the standardisation efforts and either choose not to standardise or simply aren't aware that the Kwans no longer do those forms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This even more supports the idea that you are in a bubble. TKD is not just in Korea. Hasn't been for going on 60+ years. There is a LOT more going on.

On one hand when you say (paraphrasing) "Korea says X is the only correct way" but on the other hand say "yea they have an open format and do not push anything on you" yes, that is a clear and present double standard.
In the KKW format there are shades of truth here, but Only in that format.

No disrespect to anyone, but I am completely lost on the value of a Kwan belt when a person does not have to learn anything new.
When someone is awarded a belt from another style for doing the same stuff that raises some big questions. When I got my 7th Dan MDK it was surprisingly grueling at my age, lasting about 4 hours. I will always appreciate that.  This does not include the volumes of documentation I created. And it was Completely different from my KKW Dan test.

I encourage you to research the current activity of the Kwan's because if certainly appears you are taking a "ignorance is bliss" approach.  This is good for no one; the exception possibility being you in the short term.
Most Kwan's are alive and well.

Again, not trying to enemies. Just willing to be the 'bad guy' if it helps someone expand their horizons.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 13, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I think this is right, they do older forms that are no longer official Changmookwan because they learnt them and want to keep them alive, even though Changmookwan in Korea follows Kukkiwon syllabus now and no longer practices them.


"IN KOREA"


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 13, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I think @dancingalone is right, some practitioners (in the USA) continue to practice the older curriculum, which likely was around before the standardisation efforts and either choose not to standardise or simply aren't aware that the Kwans no longer do those forms.


This is an interesting discussion and I thank you and dvcochran for having it without too much acrimony.  I would like to add my own perspective as a person that started TKD (ITF-ish but not really) as a youth, moved onto karate and other arts for most of my life, and then came back to TKD (Kukki at that) later on when the opportunity arrived to purchase a successful dojang.

Despite holding KKW rank, I don't really see the kwan identities as perfectly entwined with the Kukkiwon itself.  Instead I think the lineal connections foremost.  This undoubtedly comes from my stronger experience from Okinawan karate and aikido and the jujutsu arts.  Who your teacher is and your connection to him is the basis of your martial identity.  So I think of the kwan heads like founder Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan or the first and second kwanjang of the Chung Do Kwan like Lee Won Kuk or Son Duk Sung when I think of kwan identity.  As you probably know these men either never were part of the TDK unification movement or they pulled out from it in the end.  You could probably count  Lee Nam Suk of the Chang Moo Kwan in that group in the last decades of his life.

While it is true that the students of these men that stayed in Korea fully embraced the standardization of TKD under the auspices of the schools they succeeded to, I don't fault at all those who find more meaning in curriculum, rank, or recognition derived from their teachers and up the line to the likes of Hwang Kee, Lee Nam Suk, etc.  To me that makes sense.  Ultimately you follow your teacher because he is your 'father', giving you everything he has, and in return you honor him and pass the knowledge on that you received.  For some that means an identity outside of KKW.  For others like yourself the two are one and the same.  Neither is wrong.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 13, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> This is an interesting discussion and I thank you and dvcochran for having it without too much acrimony.  I would like to add my own perspective as a person that started TKD (ITF-ish but not really) as a youth, moved onto karate and other arts for most of my life, and then came back to TKD (Kukki at that) later on when the opportunity arrived to purchase a successful dojang.
> 
> Despite holding KKW rank, I don't really see the kwan identities as perfectly entwined with the Kukkiwon itself.  Instead I think the lineal connections foremost.  This undoubtedly comes from my stronger experience from Okinawan karate and aikido and the jujutsu arts.  Who your teacher is and your connection to him is the basis of your martial identity.  So I think of the kwan heads like founder Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan or the first and second kwanjang of the Chung Do Kwan like Lee Won Kuk or Son Duk Sung when I think of kwan identity.  As you probably know these men either never were part of the TDK unification movement or they pulled out from it in the end.  You could probably count  Lee Nam Suk of the Chang Moo Kwan in that group in the last decades of his life.
> 
> While it is true that the students of these men that stayed in Korea fully embraced the standardization of TKD under the auspices of the schools they succeeded to, I don't fault at all those who find more meaning in curriculum, rank, or recognition derived from their teachers and up the line to the likes of Hwang Kee, Lee Nam Suk, etc.  To me that makes sense.  Ultimately you follow your teacher because he is your 'father', giving you everything he has, and in return you honor him and pass the knowledge on that you received.  For some that means an identity outside of KKW.  For others like yourself the two are one and the same.  Neither is wrong.


Very well said.

I feel it would be great to hear from others in the various TKD ranks about this subject here on the forum. Perspective can be galvanizing and sometimes limiting. 
I am very interested to hear others experience and perspective on the value of lineage, school/instructor following, or whether that even matters to some.

Again, I appreciate @andyjeffries efferies candor and openness and thank @dancingalone for jumping into the fray.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 13, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Very well said.
> 
> I feel it would be great to hear from others in the various TKD ranks about this subject here on the forum. Perspective can be galvanizing and sometimes limiting.
> I am very interested to hear others experience and perspective on the value of lineage, school/instructor following, or whether that even matters to some.
> ...


I've spoken about this a few times on this site, but here is my experience and lineage:

My KJN moved to the U.S. in the late 1960's.  He was part of the Moo Duk Kwan that supported the unification process.  He supported Olympic development early on, and he was involved back in the earlier years (80's and early 90's).  During that time period, we competed on the those types of circtuits (Jr. Olympics, Pan Am games, etc.).  We never had any strong Kukkiwon ties, and back in the USTU days, my KJN's reputation (he was VP of USTU for a time) was enough (i.e. we didn't need kukkiwon rank certificates). 

I know that my KJN is ranked in the Kukkiwon, which I believe was more of a political statement, with his officer position in the USTU.  For what it's worth, he was ranked through the KTA (which only issued certificates for a short time, before the kukkiwon was established), and the Moo Duk Kwan.  We never taught any of the newer formsets. We practice the old patterns, Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Naihanchi, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc. 

It has been my experience that there were many Koreans who had similar experiences in the U.S.  I have competed in tournaments all over OH, WV, PA, KY, VA, DC, IN, and NY, and their directors ran similar curriculums/dojangs.  I can't personally speak to why my KJN never supported the continued progressive curriculum that the unification process produced.  

I have entertained the idea of getting my kukkiwon certification, but I always end up with the same conclusion;  I don't teach that curriculum, I see value in the curriculum I teach, and I don't have time to teach both curriculums.  So I've always stopped short.  I don't hold any disregard towards any of the newer stuff, but it's just not the same as I teach.  I have my own dojang, but I have a full time day job, and only a few evenings a week to dedicate to teaching TKD.  I have to triage my commitments. 

My path has sent me towards my Japanese-Okinawan roots over the newer Kukki curriculum.  I have personally found exploring the roots of my patterns, to deepend my understanding of the forms that I do practice.  Perhaps when/if I retire from my day job, I'll have to the time to explore the newer curriculum that Kukki-TKD offers.


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## WaterGal (Oct 13, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> That's the thing, I think a lot of the differences between the Kwans as practiced in America (and to a lesser, but still somewhat, extent internationally) is due to those early instructors that left Korea to teach abroad, but didn't keep up with the standardisation that happened in Korea. Some do, for sure, for example MDK's Secretary General was taking his 1st Class Master certificate when I did my 2nd Class, but it's my theory on why there are so many people that attend the Kukkiwon courses but are so far removed from current standards in technique.



I think you're probably right. I'm not really involved in the, I don't know, TKD politics and stuff. But yeah, the impression I get is that a lot of Korean instructors left Korea for the US and either didn't bother to keep up with unification, or actually intentionally avoided it. 

I think, in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and even more recently... from the US, Korea seemed very far away, and keeping up with what KKW was doing probably seemed like a lot of work (and some sacrifice, if you have an emotional attachment to the things your teacher taught you) for no reward at all,

My first TKD instructor was one of Joon Rhee's American students, and in the 90s was still basically teaching Rhee's 50s/60s pre-KKW curriculum as "traditional TKD". I think that was a case of intentional avoidance. I also remember talking to a school owner from another state a few years back who was still teaching Palgwe forms, despite issuing KKW rank, because that's what his teacher had done, and also he wasn't sure how to change his curriculum without stressing out his existing students.


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## MadMartigan (Oct 13, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> the impression I get is that a lot of Korean instructors left Korea for the US and either didn't bother to keep up with unification, or actually intentionally avoided it.


It probably comes as no surprise to anyone that those issues are far from confined strictly to the KKW side of the TKD house.

Our original master from Korea came over in the early 70s with the ITF.
He taught the Chang-Hon forms similar to how Shotokan practice their Kata. The curriculum leaned hard on line work and fundamental movement drills.

He eventually left the martial arts in the late 90s. Up to that point, our school remained something of a time capsule. 

It wasn't until we went to a couple open tournaments where other ITF practitioners were competing and YouTube became a thing in the 2000s that we even heard about the Sine Wave pattern method. (Guessing in hindsight that those annual ITF membership fees were not too likely making it to where they were supposed to... but that's a different issue).

As some others have said, we have found value in continuing to practice the style we were taught. We haven't seen any value in changing to follow where an organization went later. Our grading syllabus remains very close to what is was 40 years ago (obviously with more extras trained around the margins).


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 13, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Maybe he changed his mind. No crime...
> 
> 
> Hmmm....
> ...


You still don't get it. People learn more than one way to do a given kick. You apparently don't, but that's sort of your problem, not anyone elses.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 14, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You still don't get it. People learn more than one way to do a given kick. You apparently don't, but that's sort of your problem, not anyone elses.



How is it that you didn't learn all those different arts 7 years ago, but you do now?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Switching to this type of punching was not a matter days of training, even though I was a very capable puncher.


I really want to see this capable punch, is it like that kick video you posted? You know the one that knocks people out every time you land it? Please, please please post it again!


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 14, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I really want to see this capable punch, is it like that kick video you posted? You know the one that knocks people out every time you land it? Please, please please post it again!



I'm so slow...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I'm so slow...


I’ve seen your kick, it’s your capable punch I want to see.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’ve seen your kick, it’s your capable punch I want to see.


you said you boxed the ears off people. Let’s see it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’ve seen your kick, it’s your capable punch I want to see.


I agree, you are slow, maybe in a couple different ways. Now about that punch video…the one where you boxed people’s ears off?


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 14, 2021)

These are the legs you don't think would lead to KO if it hits the temple or jaw.. 

I would be surprised if an elephant can take it.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 14, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I agree, you are slow, maybe in a couple different ways. Now about that punch video…the one where you boxed people’s ears off?


It looks hilarious if I taped it. They spar like weasels. very aggressive until it's my turn... Then they circle 3 feet away from me.  So I just throw some softy kicks and let them have it.

I have never kicked someone in the head off a rear leg ever… not semi contact, not full contact. 

If I kick the head I make sure they will block it. That kind of thing. I'm a nice guy..

But they are very good, some of them. Not easy to catch good TKdoins with kicks. Punches however… i


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 14, 2021)

We had a talented  Kickboxer joining who I sparred under rules and a referee. He said when we shook hands that this might end badly for him.

He never liked me, never rooted for me, always tried to knock me out.  Spin  hook kicks every sparring session. 

I told him that I will knock him out if he hits me badly. I didn't want to have injuries. Just do some techniques and go home. He couldn't land his spin kicks but i felt the breeze...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> These are the legs you don't think would lead to KO if it hits the temple or jaw..
> 
> I would be surprised if an elephant can take it.


Go exploring, Disney has other lands besides fantasyland. Where is the video of your punch?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> These are the legs you don't think would lead to KO if it hits the temple or jaw..
> 
> I would be surprised if an elephant can take it.


An elephant? Jesus Christ. Aren’t you ashamed of making this crap up?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> It looks hilarious if I taped it. They spar like weasels. very aggressive until it's my turn... Then they circle 3 feet away from me.  So I just throw some softy kicks and let them have it.
> 
> I have never kicked someone in the head off a rear leg ever… not semi contact, not full contact.
> 
> ...


The tapes you have shown are hilarious, you sir, are hilarious. I hope your teacher sees this nonsense. Seriously, try to start telling the truth.  Be honest, empty your cup. See what it’s like.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> We had a talented  Kickboxer joining who I sparred under rules and a referee. He said when we shook hands that this might end badly for him.
> 
> He never liked me, never rooted for me, always tried to knock me out.  Spin  hook kicks every sparring session.
> 
> I told him that I will knock him out if he hits me badly. I didn't want to have injuries. Just do some techniques and go home. He couldn't land his spin kicks but i felt the breeze...


I can’t feel a breeze but I sure a.f. smell one.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 14, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> These are the legs you don't think would lead to KO if it hits the temple or jaw..
> 
> I would be surprised if an elephant can take it.


But what really matters is this. Who would win a fight between you and Batman?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> But what really matters is this. Who would win a fight between you and Batman?


He would, of course, because he is so fast Batman  can’t see him, and he would box the ears off the Batman so he couldn’t be heard either.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> But what really matters is this. Who would win a fight between you and Batman?


This thread may get me banned. That guy is delusional at best. Just wait, he is going to tell another story of his prowess.  I can hardly wait for the story of how much lunch money he took in today.


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## J. Pickard (Oct 14, 2021)

Why is anyone still humoring this guy at this point? His grasp on how reality works seems to be at a level that I am genuinely convinced that he is just trolling. We are all better than this. This thread had dissolved into a delusional individual simply trying to start arguments with others for no other reason than self validation. Lets just let this thread rest in peace already because it died long long ago.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> These are the legs you don't think would lead to KO if it hits the temple or jaw..
> 
> I would be surprised if an elephant can take it.


I Would be surprised if you didn’t say you knocked out an elephant that came to your gym to spar. As a medical professional, I urge you to seek help for your cognitive disorder.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Why is anyone still humoring this guy at this point? His grasp on how reality works seems to be at a level that I am genuinely convinced that he is just trolling. We are all better than this. This thread had dissolved into a delusional individual simply trying to start arguments with others for no other reason than self validation. Lets just let this thread rest in peace already because it died long long ago.


Fair enough. I have lowered myself. you are the adult here.


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## dvcochran (Oct 14, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The tapes you have shown are hilarious, you sir, are hilarious. I hope your teacher sees this nonsense. Seriously, try to start telling the truth.  Be honest, empty your cup. See what it’s like.


Teacher? That sir, is also hilarious. Unless you count Youtube


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 15, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> But what really matters is this. Who would win a fight between you and Batman?



I would beat the sh*t out of Ben Affleck


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 15, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Why is anyone still humoring this guy at this point? His grasp on how reality works seems to be at a level that I am genuinely convinced that he is just trolling. We are all better than this. This thread had dissolved into a delusional individual simply trying to start arguments with others for no other reason than self validation. Lets just let this thread rest in peace already because it died long long ago.



Or I have real power in my kicks and you don't. One or the other.


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## caped crusader (Oct 15, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I would beat the sh*t out of Ben Affleck


OK stud


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 15, 2021)

,


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 15, 2021)

I think it's the back that makes the difference. You get a different swing and push through when the back is fully involved.

That's my take on why it's more powerful than a roundhouse from the same starting position


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## skribs (Oct 15, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You still don't get it. People learn more than one way to do a given kick.


And that's an understatement.  If you factor in different footwork on entry and landing; adjustments to the kick for power, speed, or form; adjustments based on range and height; different striking surfaces...right there I've got about a hundred different ways just to do a roundhouse kick.


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## Buka (Oct 15, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> But what really matters is this. Who would win a fight between you and Batman?


You made me go and spill my coffee again.


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## Buka (Oct 15, 2021)

The Batkick, in selfie.


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## skribs (Oct 16, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> But what really matters is this. Who would win a fight between you and Batman?


Batman has been trained in every martial art.  Every martial art has weaknesses.  Therefore, Batman will have every weakness possible, and is sure to lose.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 16, 2021)

skribs said:


> Batman has been trained in every martial art.  Every martial art has weaknesses.  Therefore, Batman will have every weakness possible, and is sure to lose.



If I remember correctly, he is an expert in Japanese Ju Jutsu.


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## skribs (Oct 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> If I remember correctly, he is an expert in Japanese Ju Jutsu.


He is an expert in every martial art.  His preferred fighting style is Keysi.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 16, 2021)

skribs said:


> He is an expert in every martial art.  His preferred fighting style is Keysi.



How does Keysi handle this?


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 16, 2021)

All credit goes to papa genes, but you can compliment me if you like. It wouldn't hurt.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> How does Keysi handle this?


By ignoring it, like a pesky fly.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 16, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> By ignoring it, like a pesky fly.



Maybe Keysi is one of those other 11 arts you trained that you were too embarrased to name.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 16, 2021)

Not a single reasonable attack drill and no drill against a kick. Batman is screwed


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> How does Keysi handle this?


You are a pathetic troll. And still incredibly slow….


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 16, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> How does Keysi handle this?


It amazes me that you legitimately think everyone should be impressed by your kicks.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It amazes me that you legitimately think everyone should be impressed by your kicks.



Why shouldn't they?


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> How does Keysi handle this?


I assume (hope would be a better word) that you are posting this to try and be humorous. 
Here is a somewhat random video I grabbed of what roundhouse bag work should look like. 
Roundhouse Bag Work


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I assume (hope would be a better word) that you are posting this to try and be humorous.
> Here is a somewhat random video I grabbed of what roundhouse bag work should look like.
> Roundhouse Bag Work



Why do you link a Muay Thai bag work to me?


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Why do you link a Muay Thai bag work to me?


Why do you think it does not? But you are avoiding the question aren't you? How would you compare your kick to his kick? He is not even skipping so shouldn't your kick be harder? 

It is a modified Thai kick; somewhere between classic TKD and Thai; aka a MMA kick.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Why do you think it does not? But you are avoiding the question aren't you? How would you compare your kick to his kick?
> It is a modified Thai kick; somewhere between classic TKD and Thai; aka a MMA kick.



I wouldn't compare it at all. He throws a Thai kick.


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I wouldn't compare it at all. He throws a Thai kick.


Here in lies your problem. You are not willing to compare.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Here in lies your problem. You are not willing to compare.



The only meaningful comparison would someone who actually throws a chambered rear leg round kick.... 

If you want to know what kickers I like then my favorite in ring fighting is Melvin Manhoef


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Why shouldn't they?


They are perfectly average, at best.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> They are perfectly average, at best.



There were zero guys with my speed in the club I trained, instructors included.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> There were zero guys with my speed in the club I trained, instructors included.


A) Speed is only one aspect of a kick. 
B) That doesn't say much since none of us have trained or even visited your old club. 

Either way, from my experience your kicks are average at best. From the other responses here I'm guessing that's a consensus. What that says about your old club (or at least what you took from that club) is something for you to decide on your own.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> A) Speed is only one aspect of a kick


If my speed is above average and my technique is average, that would make above average. 

This guy, who's a fighter, is smaller and lighter, without semi heavy shoes, an still slower than me.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

He's even slower than me in slow motion......


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What that says about your old club (or at least what you took from that club) is something for you to decide on your own.



We have a bronze medalist in there. Give it up.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> . From the other responses here I'm guessing that's a consensus.


If I post something and say I'm good, how many would agree regardless of what it is? Read up on human nature.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> We have a bronze medalist in there. Give it up.


I think you missed my point there.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think you missed my point there.



You replied that I need to factor in what level of practitioners my school had. I did. 

As to your argument from consensus, if a disgruntled old poster dislikes you, and you post something impressive, which is more likely; that he takes back everything he said, or that he likens you to a pesky fly? 

Think about that.


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> A) Speed is only one aspect of a kick.
> B) That doesn't say much since none of us have trained or even visited your old club.
> 
> Either way, from my experience your kicks are average at best. From the other responses here I'm guessing that's a consensus. What that says about your old club (or at least what you took from that club) is something for you to decide on your own.


I would say calling them average is being very nice.


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> The only meaningful comparison would someone who actually throws a chambered rear leg round kick....
> 
> If you want to know what kickers I like then my favorite in ring fighting is Melvin Manhoef


If I believed you at all or cared in the least I would look him up but,,,


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## Buka (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> If my speed is above average and my technique is average, that would make above average.
> 
> This guy, who's a fighter, is smaller and lighter, without semi heavy shoes, an still slower than me.


But because you have no ego, you post yourself kicking at beginners speed?  Heck, it worked on me, got me hook line and sinker like the trout I am.

We should meet up and work out. I'll bet we'd have fun.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> If I believed you at all or cared in the least I would look him up but,,,


 Melvin Manhoef is the scariest kicker I have ever seen....


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I would say calling them average is being very nice.



Your turn


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> You replied that I need to factor in what level of practitioners my school had. I did.
> 
> As to your argument from consensus, if a disgruntled old poster dislikes you, and you post something impressive, which is more likely; that he takes back everything he said, or that he likens you to a pesky fly?
> 
> Think about that.


I was suggesting that's one of two possibilities. I guess I was being too subtle-but then I've explained the other point a couple times to you and it results in just a looping conversation.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I was suggesting that's one of two possibilities. I guess I was being too subtle-but then I've explained the other point a couple times to you and it results in just a looping conversation.



You did not give a second one


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 17, 2021)

Buka said:


> But because you have no ego, you post yourself kicking at beginners speed?  Heck, it worked on me, got me hook line and sinker like the trout I am.
> 
> We should meet up and work out. I'll bet we'd have fun.


Same here. I bit that bait too. He is mad at his mom because he’s grounded, so he is taking it out on us with these bedroom warrior videos.


----------

