# Marijuana use and the kidneys



## TaiChiTJ (Jan 8, 2011)

Years ago I remember reading an article about Tai Chi master Cheng Man Ching. He had been in New York City only a short time (so he arrived right in the middle of the 60's youth movement) and was discussing various topics with his students. He was asked whether or not using marijuana might help develop the flow state in tai chi practice. 

He was quick to reply in the negative, pointing out that certain important aspects of mental focus are lost as a result of the mental "high" cannabis induces. 

He went on to say that from his viewpoint, regular use would damage the kidneys. Cheng Man Chings knowledgebase was, of course, traditional chinese medicine so he used terms such as jing and essence. 

Has anyone heard of western scientific research that corroborates this? I have used google phrase search to look around. Lots of opinions on the pro and against cannabis sites, people trying to sell herbs to counteract ill effects, no scientific research yet.


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## oaktree (Jan 9, 2011)

> He went on to say that from his viewpoint, regular use would damage the kidneys. Cheng Man Chings knowledgebase was, of course, traditional chinese medicine so he used terms such as jing and essence.


 It is known as Huo Ma Ren in Chinese medicine. The part that is used are seeds. The seeds are used for Spleen, Stomach, and intestine. It is mostly used as a Laxative. Hemp seeds are a great source of Omega 3 ane 6 it also provides fiber and protein. And yes if you consume a good amount of it you will have a Laxative effect.

From what I have read from my books in English and Chinese I do not see any mention of damage to the Kidneys in regards to Chinese medicine so I am not sure where he got this from.

On the other side most of the Chinese Medicial books I have are refering to the seed and consuming and not to smoking it.



> Has anyone heard of western scientific research that corroborates this? I have used google phrase search to look around. Lots of opinions on the pro and against cannabis sites, people trying to sell herbs to counteract ill effects, no scientific research yet.


 I have heard that regular use of Marijuana can lower fertility
http://men.webmd.com/news/20031013/smoking-marijuana-lowers-fertility

Cheng-man may have heard of a similar story in the 60's, he may have heard of a couple trying to have a child and Marijuana use was involved giving him the conclusion if the herb gets in the way of making children thus it damages the essence if it damages the essence it damages the kidneys.

That is a speculation on my part of what might have occured.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 9, 2011)

Speaking for western medicine, I will say that the only demonstrated benefits to THC (in any form) are to decrease nausea and stimulate the appetite.
Pill form (marinol) is the best method of adminstering cannabinoids. Smoked is the absolute worst, since there is absolutely no way to control the dose. And of course, smoked has many other negative effects - 1 joint has as many carcinogens as 5 tobacco cigarettes, as one example. But many people prefer smoked because that is the only way they get the buzz. 
Personally, I don't care if people want to smoke pot. But I do wish they'd stop pretending it's medicinal.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 9, 2011)

Maybe it will get you kidney stoned.


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## Nomad (Jan 10, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Speaking for western medicine, I will say that the only demonstrated benefits to THC (in any form) are to decrease nausea and stimulate the appetite.
> Pill form (marinol) is the best method of adminstering cannabinoids. Smoked is the absolute worst, since there is absolutely no way to control the dose. And of course, smoked has many other negative effects - 1 joint has as many carcinogens as 5 tobacco cigarettes, as one example. But many people prefer smoked because that is the only way they get the buzz.
> Personally, I don't care if people want to smoke pot. But I do wish they'd stop pretending it's medicinal.



While decreasing nausea and stimulating the appetite are particularly important for many cancer patients (usually those undergoing drastic chemotherapy which tends to have very negative effects on both of these), there is also a large benefit for cannabis in chronic pain conditions including rheumatoid or osteoarthritis and neuropathic pain.  

At least one person I know has responded very well to marijuana treatment who would otherwise require a constant morphine drip to control her pain.  She has been to just about every specialist in Southern California, and tried marijuana as a last resort.

Really?  Pill form is the only way people can get a buzz?  So the brownies, cookies, candies, and other baked goods, as well as the alcoholic extracts are ineffective then?  (Um, no, actually, though it is true that the absorption rates will differ dramatically depending on the form of the dose.)

As to the original poster's question about kidney damage (from Wikipedia)



> THC is metabolized mainly to 11-OH-THC (11-hydroxy-THC) by the human body. This metabolite is still psychoactive and is further oxidized to 11-Nor-9-carboxy-THC (THC-COOH). In humans and animals, more than 100 metabolites could be identified, but 11-OH-THC and THC-COOH are the dominating metabolites. Metabolism occurs mainly in the liver by cytochrome P450 enzymes CYP2C9, CYP2C19, and CYP3A4. More than 55% of THC is excreted in the feces and ~20% in the urine. The main metabolite in urine is the ester of glucuronic acid and THC-COOH and free THC-COOH. In the feces, mainly 11-OH-THC was detected.[69]



So for this drug, the liver is the main route of elimination, with a minor component from the kidneys as well.  Damage and toxicity tend to occur when there is accumulation of the drug over time in the liver or kidneys; this does not appear to happen with THC.  



> One estimate of THC's LD50 for humans indicates that about 1500 pounds (680 kilograms) of cannabis would have to be smoked within 14 minutes.[24] This estimate is supported by studies which indicate that the effective dose of THC is at least 1000 times lower than the estimated lethal dose (a "therapeutic ratio" of 1000:1). This is much higher than alcohol (therapeutic ratio 10:1), cocaine (15:1), or heroin (6:1).



I'm still not sure how the 1500 pounds number was arrived at, since that would presume (using the math above), that a person smoked 1.5 pounds normally... but it's a pretty huge amount required to have an acute lethal dose regardless.

Chronically, I don't know of any study that has found evidence of kidney (or liver) damage in regular consumers of cannabis, but as with anything, if you take enough of it over a long enough period of time, it's probably possible.  Water is certainly fatal in large enough doses.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2011)

Nomad said:


> While decreasing nausea and stimulating the appetite are particularly important for many cancer patients (usually those undergoing drastic chemotherapy which tends to have very negative effects on both of these), there is also a large benefit for cannabis in chronic pain conditions including rheumatoid or osteoarthritis and neuropathic pain.


 
Unsupported by good science. I've seen the "studies" and I'm not impressed. As a matter of fact, the only people I see giving out "medical" marijuana cards are those who are known to be "candy men".



Nomad said:


> At least one person I know has responded very well to marijuana treatment who would otherwise require a constant morphine drip to control her pain. She has been to just about every specialist in Southern California, and tried marijuana as a last resort.


 
How nice for her. Anecdotal stories are really not considered evidence by the scientific community.



Nomad said:


> Really? Pill form is the only way people can get a buzz? So the brownies, cookies, candies, and other baked goods, as well as the alcoholic extracts are ineffective then? (Um, no, actually, though it is true that the absorption rates will differ dramatically depending on the form of the dose.)


 
True, it was poorly worded. Smoking is not the only way to get a buzz, merely the most common. Smoking, along with the other methods you mention, still remain terrible ways to actually get any benifit from cannabinoids.

Smoke all you like. Spend as much time stoned as you like. Doesn't bother me. It certainly kills less people than alcohol or tobacco. But it's not medical.


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## Nomad (Jan 11, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Unsupported by good science. I've seen the "studies" and I'm not impressed. As a matter of fact, the only people I see giving out "medical" marijuana cards are those who are known to be "candy men".



I'll be the first to say that we need better conducted studies on the topic.  One of the problems is that many researchers (on both sides) conducting the studies have prior bias and agendas.  Only the doubly blind clinical trials can really carry weight, and there have been very few of these conducted.  Here's one that was interesting, though still quite limited in scope.



Dirty Dog said:


> How nice for her. Anecdotal stories are really not considered evidence by the scientific community.



Agreed, though it's effect on her has been quite striking.  While there are certainly those who abuse the medical marijuana card, she is definitely not one of them.  

An interesting question for me is how her (or others) self-treatment with marijuana compares to the standard prescription alternatives, such as oxycotin (which wasn't strong enough to help her) and morphine in terms of their well-known side effects, addictive qualities as opioids, and effects on the patient's functionality while taking these.

I don't think that it's effective for everyone, but do know that it's very effective for some, and don't think that everyone who uses medical marijuana should be dismissed as a pothead - it's simply not true.  

It's amazing to me how many people swear by their supplements, or for that matter, many aspects of Eastern medicine (acupuncture, Reiki healing, chinese herbals, and so on) which have not been proven effective by double-blind clinical trials (many of which have been shown to be no more effective than placebo by large, long-term clinical trials, others have just not been sufficiently studied to date), but dismiss the possibilities of medical marijuana, which actually does have some well-designed studies that indicate a clear benefit to patients.  More research definitely needs to be done on this.

I'm not even going to discuss the implication in your last post that I'm a pothead but I do think it's a poor assumption and serves only to undermine your argument.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2011)

Nomad said:


> I'm not even going to discuss the implication in your last post that I'm a pothead but I do think it's a poor assumption and serves only to undermine your argument.


 
It was a generic statement, not aimed at you personally. But I meant it. I really don't care if people want to smoke pot. 

The rest is deleted. I'm not interested in an arguement.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 11, 2011)

The reason Marijuana will never catch on in the US for medical treatment is that you cannot patent natural substances. To say synthesized drugs are the only way to go means you are being a good little sheeple, and I usually hate that term. LOL
Sean


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## gobbly (May 13, 2011)

Works well for MS too 

and no, it doesn't cause kidney damage.  Even the question of smoking is anecdotal, since we find chemicals, but can't seem to link anything to negative health effects.  In the end the sad thing is that the whole issue is wrapped in years of propaganda, and the war on drugs is big business, it's been left to the states to try to sort out while shackled to archaic federal laws and treaties


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