# Looking for written sources on TKD



## StudentCarl (Nov 2, 2010)

Asking here rather than hijack a thread:
I know that "A Killing Art" is available widely.
Where can I get Gen. Choi's Encyclopedia? Preferably separate volumes.
What early texts are available on the KKW side?
Any others from ITF?
Any other recommended readings that are more authoritative than speculative?

Thanks,
Carl


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## andyjeffries (Nov 2, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> What early texts are available on the KKW side?
> Any other recommended readings that are more authoritative than speculative?



I don't know if you'll get completely authoritative sources (as there are differences in opinions on the facts/circumstances).

Early text from the Kukkiwon:

Taekwondo Poomse (1975) ISBN 1199312398

Recent textbook from the Kukkiwon:

Taekwondo Textbook (2006) ISBN13 978-89-7336-750-4

History of Kukki-Taekwondo:

A Modern History of Taekwondo 1999 (Korean) Kyong Myung Lee and Kang Won Sik ISBN13 89-358-0124-0 (I have an English translation PDF if you want a copy).


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## chrispillertkd (Nov 2, 2010)

These are all from the ITF side:

I believe that you can get Gen. Choi's 15 vol. _Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do_ and the single volume version from www.taekwondotimes.com (I have never seen any way to purchase individual volumes of the 15 volume set).

You should also check out _Taekwon-Do: A Guide to the Theories of Defensive Movement_ by Mark McCarthy and George R. Parluski. It's out of print but available on amazon.

Master Jim Hogan has two books that are worthwhile reads: _Effective Taekwon-Do Sparring_ and and _Taekwon-Do Patterns: From Beginner to Black Belt_. 

The best resource I have seen on patterns, bar none, is a DVD produced by Grand Master Choi, Jung Hwa (ITF Master Class DVD) available at: http://www.treniconline.com/detail.asp?c_urn=183&show=allpgno2&urn=3108&pg=2 It covers the first 9 patterns in detail with GM Choi giving personal instruction on each pattern.

There is also a DVD series put out by the Japanese ITF that covers the patterns up to 3rd dan. You can purchase it here: http://taekwondotimes.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=49

Lastly, there is the Legacy CD-Rom that was put out in 1997 that includes video of all 24 patterns, a scan of the first edition of the Encyclopedia, .wav clips of a lot of Korean terminology spoken by GM Choi, Jung Hwa and interviews with Gen. Choi which can be bought here: https://ssl118.alentus.com/comdo/catalogue.aspx This includes ore materialthan the Master Class DVD, of course, but without the commentary on the patterns.

Hope this informaiton helps. 

Pax,

Chris


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## StudentCarl (Nov 2, 2010)

Thanks. I recognize that there's not one authoritative source. I suspect that there have always been factions and politics, regardless of art or nation. I think the stories all need to be taken with a grain of salt rather than taken as gospel. I'm interested as much in the times and techniques--the forge from which the art emerged. I figure it's not the same now as it was then, and I'm curious what differences I can identify.

I suppose it's the same as knowing more about my great-grandfather. Knowing about him doesn't define me, but may shed some light on what has contributed to who and where I am now.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 2, 2010)

If your looking for technical stuff you will olose your mind reviewing various versions. Stick with any official version from the KKW or General Choi. 

If you are looking foer smaller sysems like Moo Duk Kwan than seek out works from the foundeers of those systems as well. 

For history, most anything will have inaccuracies. But better  stuff will be more specific as far as names, dates and places. That is an area the "A Killing Art" shines in. 

General Choi wrote 2 volume set "Taekwon-Do and I" 
http://www.taekwondotimes.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=236

This chronicles some of his early life before and into the 1930's as well as conscription into the Japanese army, being sentenced to death and development of TKD.  It has hundreds if not thousdands of specific names, dates, places, and dozens of photographs.


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 2, 2010)

I have some of Hee Il Cho's books, and I find them useful.  The Complete Master's Kick is essential for anyone that wants to develop great technique.  Once I lose enough weight to get decently off the ground I'll pick up his book on jumping kicks.


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## IcemanSK (Nov 2, 2010)

You can get early editions of the KKW textbook from Sangmoosa.com
1(800) 346-3116. I get my equipment for my dojang there. When I bought my latest copy of the KKW textbook, a few years ago, the said they had editions of the textbook going back to the first one in 1975. Hopefully, they still have a few. Ask for Kate.


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## MSUTKD (Nov 5, 2010)

" A killing art" is heresay with a rare fact thrown in to keep people interested.


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## elder999 (Nov 5, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Any other recommended readings that are more authoritative than speculative?
> 
> Thanks,
> Carl


 
 Duk Sung Son's _Korean *Karate*_ .


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 5, 2010)

MSUTKD said:


> " A killing art" is heresay with a rare fact thrown in to keep people interested.


 
Yep, goes along with all that other heresy like the earth is round and revolves around the sun.

Then again, not sure if you meant heresy or hearsay. Either way.............


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 6, 2010)

I might buy A Killing Art just to see what all the fuss is about.


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## Bridge (Nov 6, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I might buy A Killing Art just to see what all the fuss is about.


 
It's worth picking up in my opinion.  I read it last weekend and passed it to my son who's reading it now and really enjoying it.  Just like TKD everybody will get something different from it.


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## Miles (Nov 7, 2010)

I carry these in my training bag as they are lighter than the hard cover:
http://www.sangmoosa.com/shop/shop_goodsview.asp?Top=9&Steps=000090010800109&g_code=2008826145551

This is also a very good resource, also published by the Kukkiwon:
http://www.sangmoosa.com/shop/shop_goodsview.asp?Top=9&Steps=000090010800109&g_code=200948133117

This is also a good early source:
http://www.sangmoosa.com/shop/shop_goodsview.asp?Top=9&Steps=000090010800109&g_code=2008826145955


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## miguksaram (Nov 18, 2010)

If you are looking to study history of TKD I would also recommend that you find good books on Korean history as well.  This will help you weed out propoganda and mistruths that have spewed from both sides of the fence.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

MSUTKD said:


> " A killing art" is heresay with a rare fact thrown in to keep people interested.


Hey East Lansing guy, what about the book do you not like?
What in it is incorrect?
Can you provide any counter points to back up any claims that you say the investigative journalist author got wrong?
This would be most helpful to readers here & I would no doubt that the author Mr Alex Gillis would be most welcome to any verifiable facts that you may add, especially if it corrects what you think he got wrong.
TKD's history is both confusing & vague. The story of its complicated development has been manipulated by many entities for various reasons. I for one am impressed with this well documented work with dozens of references & hundreds of footnotes. The author Mr Gillis states that he had at least 2 sources for his contentions.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

Gee, I must be sick because I have all those books.  The Killing Art is good if you are an ITF person, not so good if you are not. The author tends to write in the style of a conspiracy theorist.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> The Killing Art is good if you are an ITF person, not so good if you are not. The author tends to write in the style of a conspiracy theorist.


See to me, one can not really or more fully understand TKD's history until you start to grasp the nasty politics. It is not a conspiracy, it is what happened. It clearly goes into the accurate history of how Gen choi's TKD was developed & very clearly points out the political problems & underlying interference & reasons for it, which is needed to understand the controversies. I would much rather, from an intellectual discussion standpoint have you provide the readers with why you think it is "not so good" if you are not "an ITF person".
History to me is what happened, who made it happen, where & when it did it happen. 
What did you find that you think, feel or know it not correct & why?


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> See to me, one can not really or more fully understand TKD's history until you start to grasp the nasty politics. It is not a conspiracy, it is what happened. It clearly goes into the accurate history of how Gen choi's TKD was developed & very clearly points out the political problems & underlying interference & reasons for it, which is needed to understand the controversies. I would much rather, from an intellectual discussion standpoint have you provide the readers with why you think it is "not so good" if you are not "an ITF person".
> History to me is what happened, who made it happen, where & when it did it happen.
> What did you find that you think, feel or know it not correct & why?



There are numerous inaccuracies in fact and the way he draws conclusions. He makes Taekwondo to be a seedy dirty thing, which is not how I view Taekwondo at all. To me, taekwondo is a beautiful creation, something that uplifts the spirit. Mr. gillies isn't into that. It's tiring and draining to read that book, just like it is tiring and draining to read general choi's autobiography.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> There are numerous inaccuracies in fact and the way he draws conclusions. He makes Taekwondo to be a seedy dirty thing, which is not how I view Taekwondo at all. To me, taekwondo is a beautiful creation, something that uplifts the spirit. Mr. gillies isn't into that. It's tiring and draining to read that book, just like it is tiring and draining to read general choi's autobiography.


I think he loves TKD & feels that it has been dirtied by the nasty politics which upsets & applauds him, especially given the 5 Tenets of TKD & the supposed emphasis on moral character development. He is shocked at the do as I say, not do as I do attitude of TKD leaders.
I am sorry that you find it tiring & draining. Forgive me but it seems a bit partisan to me.
Also I am disappointed that you did not offer 1 single example of the numerous inaccuracies that you claim he makes & why you don't agree with conclusions he makes.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I think he loves TKD & feels that it has been dirtied by the nasty politics which upsets & applauds him, especially given the 5 Tenets of TKD & the supposed emphasis on moral character development. He is shocked at the do as I say, not do as I do attitude of TKD leaders.
> I am sorry that you find it tiring & draining. Forgive me but it seems a bit partisan to me.
> Also I am disappointed that you did not offer 1 single example of the numerous inaccuracies that you claim he makes & why you don't agree with conclusions he makes.




It talks about GM NAM Tae Hi for example starting training when he was 18 at the Chung Do Kwan, which GM Lee and other Chung Do Kwan seniors said wasn't true. That sort of thing. He quotes from the Modern History, and my name is in there, so I actually contributed to his work. It's late and I am tired to go open that thing up and try to contradict what he wrote. If you want to believe what he wrote, then go ahead. I'm really not interested, even though I do have the book sitting on my itf dedicated bookcase.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> It talks about GM NAM Tae Hi for example starting training when he was 18 at the Chung Do Kwan, which GM Lee and other Chung Do Kwan seniors said wasn't true. That sort of thing. He quotes from the Modern History, and my name is in there, so I actually contributed to his work. It's late and I am tired to go open that thing up and try to contradict what he wrote. If you want to believe what he wrote, then go ahead. I'm really not interested, even though I do have the book sitting on my itf dedicated bookcase.


It is not a matter of me believing what the author wrote, but rather you backing up claims made on a public forum. 
I for one found that he didn't understand the evolution of sine wave fully enough to draw a more proper conclusion of how Gen Choi used it as a political tool. I also found a minor thing about who accompanied Gen Choi on a trip. But other than that, in going through his references, claims & footnotes (hundreds) I find not much else that I thought was wrong. That is why I asked for your valued input.
I just wish you would back up your claim, especially when it has a ring of a partisan tone to it, or at least could be interpreted that way.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> It is not a matter of me believing what the author wrote, but rather you backing up claims made on a public forum.



I didn't make any claims. You asked me about a book that I read years ago, the contents of which, to tell you the truth, I am trying to forget. The author basically repeats all of the same stuff that General Choi has been saying. One example is the Taekkyon training that he supposedly had under HAN Il Dong, the calligrapher. GM Lee the head of Taekkyon in Korea, interviewed General Choi on tape I believe and it came out that General Choi admitted that he didn't learn Taekkyon from HAN Il Dong. That sort of stuff. 

I really don't care about General Choi or what he said this point. He sort of reminds me of Colonel Kurtz in the movie Apocalypse Now, out in the middle of the jungle, doing things his way.  I do care about the people that chose to follow him, who may feel that after he past away they are isolated and may wish to affiliate with Kukki Taekwondo. I want to help them because I think they are innocent victims.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> See to me, one can not really or more fully understand TKD's history until you start to grasp the nasty politics. It is not a conspiracy, it is what happened. It clearly goes into the accurate history of how Gen choi's TKD was developed & very clearly points out the political problems & underlying interference & reasons for it, which is needed to understand the controversies. I would much rather, from an intellectual discussion standpoint have you provide the readers with why you think it is "not so good" if you are not "an ITF person".
> History to me is what happened, who made it happen, where & when it did it happen.
> What did you find that you think, feel or know it not correct & why?



I tend to agree with your assessment & would add something. The author wrote out of his experience & what he had access to. (Or rather WHO he had access to). He had access to Gen Choi & other top ITF folks. He never met Dr. Kim & didn't have the type of first hand access to that info as he did the ITF info. Reading documents is one thing. Speaking to the authors is another. Gillis spoke to many people on both sides. But my point is, his access was greater within ITF circles. Therefore, it's heavy on the ITF side. I don't see that as a negative. But, I do take note of it as I read.


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## miguksaram (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> There are numerous inaccuracies in fact and the way he draws conclusions. He makes Taekwondo to be a seedy dirty thing, which is not how I view Taekwondo at all. To me, taekwondo is a beautiful creation, something that uplifts the spirit. Mr. gillies isn't into that. It's tiring and draining to read that book, just like it is tiring and draining to read general choi's autobiography.


 
I just started reading this book.  I am up to Chapt. 6.  So far I like it, but mostly because of the GM Nam's war story that he describes, more than anything else in there.  He used one of my research papers as well for the book...so all I want are my royalties. ha.ha.ha.  I am slow reading it because I also started reading Korea Old & New: A History by Lee, Ki-baek.  

I am hoping to compare some of the happenings in Korean history with the book that Gillis to help sift fact from opinoin.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I just wish you would back up your claim, especially when it has a ring of a partisan tone to it, or at least could be interpreted that way.




I guess that is one way of looking at it, pointing out General Choi's lies and then getting called "partisian" for it. GM Son states that General Choi lied about his background in his 1959 newspaper ad. GM LEE Chong Woo talks about General Choi lying in the Yook article. Taekkyon GM LEE Yong Bok tape recorded General Choi admitting that he lied about learning Taekkyon from his calligraphy teacher HAN Il Dong.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

puunui said:


> I didn't make any claims. You asked me about a book that I read years ago, the contents of which, to tell you the truth, I am trying to forget. The author basically repeats all of the same stuff that General Choi has been saying. One example is the Taekkyon training that he supposedly had under HAN Il Dong, the calligrapher. GM Lee the head of Taekkyon in Korea, interviewed General Choi on tape I believe and it came out that General Choi admitted that he didn't learn Taekkyon from HAN Il Dong. That sort of stuff.


Yes I would equate that with GM Lee Chong Woo saying he lied about the history with the 2,000 year old myth. Gen Choi also wanted to connect TKD to Korea in some way. I am very well aware that Gen Choi's exposure to Taek Kyon was very limited, possiblt just stories related to him by his teacher.
One common mistake that is made is to discount info totally because of other flaws


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 30, 2010)

IcemanSK said:


> I tend to agree with your assessment & would add something. The author wrote out of his experience & what he had access to. (Or rather WHO he had access to). He had access to Gen Choi & other top ITF folks. He never met Dr. Kim & didn't have the type of first hand access to that info as he did the ITF info. Reading documents is one thing. Speaking to the authors is another. Gillis spoke to many people on both sides. But my point is, his access was greater within ITF circles. Therefore, it's heavy on the ITF side. I don't see that as a negative. But, I do take note of it as I read.


Yes I understand that. I also think that Mr Gillis makes a point that it was Gen choi who 1st applied the name TKD to what he was doing & developing, hence that adds credibility to claims of who founded TKD. The TaeSuDo guys only take the name some 10, 11 or more years later, but then sort of write him out of history.
I think there is no doubt that Gen Choi & his people used TKD for what they were doing 1st. However this may be the original TKD, but it is not the TKD that the world has come to know, which of course is Kukki TKD.
I would just be happy if people from both sides see the other side's history of their development & stop saying the other side is lying. One has nothing to do with the other, separate & maybe not even equal as KKW rules. They came from common roots, but developed differently & for some with different focuses
The greatest contribution of Mr Gillis' work is that to me, he documents the nasty Korean politics & the role that they played in TKD's development & history as well as discrediting Gen Choi & his followers


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## IcemanSK (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes I understand that. I also think that Mr Gillis makes a point that it was Gen choi who 1st applied the name TKD to what he was doing & developing, hence that adds credibility to claims of who founded TKD. The TaeSuDo guys only take the name some 10, 11 or more years later, but then sort of write him out of history.
> I think there is no doubt that Gen Choi & his people used TKD for what they were doing 1st. However this may be the original TKD, but it is not the TKD that the world has come to know, which of course is Kukki TKD.
> I would just be happy if people from both sides see the other side's history of their development & stop saying the other side is lying. One has nothing to do with the other, separate & maybe not even equal as KKW rules. They came from common roots, but developed differently & for some with different focuses
> The greatest contribution of Mr Gillis' work is that to me, he documents the nasty Korean politics & the role that they played in TKD's development & history as well as discrediting Gen Choi & his followers



As much as I'd hate to put the label of "fair & balanced" to the idea of another perspective of the TKD history issue, I think it fits. Meaning, I'd like to see the discussion from SEVERAL other points of view. GM Uhm, Woon Kyu has a pov I'd love to hear. There are many others, as well.

There is indeed much more that unites these pioneers than things that separate them. One's perspective certainly doesn't mean disagreement means someone lied. We like to play that game to feel superior to our opponents. And yes, it's really sad. No one here is complete hero or complete villain. To ascribe motives to those with whom we disagree is not helpful. Especially, some 50-odd years later.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes I would equate that with GM Lee Chong Woo saying he lied about the history with the 2,000 year old myth.




GM Lee always talked about Taekwondo beginning with the kwans, at least with me. As for the 2000 year old argument, Korea does have a cultural affinity for kicking, which is the basis for the emphasis for kicking in Taekwondo. Even GM LEE Won Kuk said that he focused on punching and hand development (see Chung Do Kwan symbol), but his students wanted to kick, especially jump kick. Take an American kid with no training, put him in a fighting situation, and he will put his hands up and box, or wrestle. Different culture, different style of fighting.


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## puunui (Dec 30, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes I understand that. I also think that Mr Gillis makes a point that it was Gen choi who 1st applied the name TKD to what he was doing & developing, hence that adds credibility to claims of who founded TKD. The TaeSuDo guys only take the name some 10, 11 or more years later, but then sort of write him out of history.




The "TaeSuDo guys" didn't want the name Taekwondo. It upset them greatly that General Choi forced the name upon them, so much so that they made him resign and get out of the KTA. So again, for General Choi to force the name upon the KTA, and then try to infer that the "TaeSuDo guys" took his name and then wrote him out of history, like they stole something from him, is ridiculous. Can you see how twisted that is?


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

puunui said:


> The "TaeSuDo guys" didn't want the name Taekwondo. It upset them greatly that General Choi forced the name upon them, so much so that they made him resign and get out of the KTA. So again, for General Choi to force the name upon the KTA, and then try to infer that the "TaeSuDo guys" took his name and then wrote him out of history, like they stole something from him, is ridiculous. Can you see how twisted that is?


Yes of course & this was part of the reason why he corrupted the thinking of some of his followers. That is why I look for a more complete understanding.
KTA, KKW & WTF could have = TaeSuDo
but 
ITF always = Taekwon-Do

I really wish it would have stayed that way & Gen Choi's Chang Hon ITF TKD people have to know that this was his fault! if it stayed the way the TaeSuDo guys wanted it, they at most would have said, this TKD guy couldn't work with us, so we told him to go stick it. So he made the ITF & we went on to make the WTF or Kukki TaeSuDo. Then maybe others would have been less concerned with the other side. I still don't get why people still make a big deal about the other side. We are all martial artists!
In the words of the great LA philosopher, "Can't we all just get along"!


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

puunui said:


> GM Lee always talked about Taekwondo beginning with the kwans, at least with me. As for the 2000 year old argument, Korea does have a cultural affinity for kicking, which is the basis for the emphasis for kicking in Taekwondo. Even GM LEE Won Kuk said that he focused on punching and hand development (see Chung Do Kwan symbol), but his students wanted to kick, especially jump kick. Take an American kid with no training, put him in a fighting situation, and he will put his hands up and box, or wrestle. Different culture, different style of fighting.


Yes but he went on record with what I understand is a major Korean monthly publication stating that he came up with the fabrication that it was 2,000 years old, which became the template that so many used, as it was put out by the ROK Ministry of Education & it got repeated & repeated, which caused some much confusion & had the Japanese martial artists laugh at us


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## puunui (Dec 31, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes but he went on record with what I understand is a major Korean monthly publication stating that he came up with the fabrication that it was 2,000 years old, which became the template that so many used, as it was put out by the ROK Ministry of Education & it got repeated & repeated, which caused some much confusion & had the Japanese martial artists laugh at us




I don't know how accurate the translation was so I can't speak to what you are saying. Personally, I don't really care if Japanese martial artists laugh at us. Do you? I don't care if Korean Martial Artists laugh at me. One more thing that I learned from the pioneers, including the USTU pioneers, you can't do much if worrying about what others think is foremost on your mind.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

puunui said:


> I don't know how accurate the translation was so I can't speak to what you are saying. Personally, I don't really care if Japanese martial artists laugh at us. Do you? I don't care if Korean Martial Artists laugh at me. One more thing that I learned from the pioneers, including the USTU pioneers, you can't do much if worrying about what others think is foremost on your mind.


You are right Sir, as I also don't care about others laughing at us from a personal standpoint. But my point goes more towards the reputation of TKD. If the "Mecca of TKD", the World TKD Academy, the national Korean TKD group, the IF for Olympic TKD & several ministries of the ROK govt say TKD is 2,000 years old, students & people believe that. Then when the karate guys laugh at that & they were the 1st ones to laugh as they knew it was not true as they were not misled by their leaders, it causes serious problems for TKD credibility & TKDin.
GM Lee Chong Woo was right when he stated that we don't have to lie anymore, as TKD is on top of the world, at least Kukki TKD. This is also a great contribution by Steve Capener PhD, as he says it would be better to acknowledge the roots of karate, but to show how TKD moved away from those roots, instead of trying to connect it to 2,000 years ago, as any direct connection, other than possible cultural traits & preferences is simply non-existent.
So now it is no longer the 60s & 70s & the internet has played a part in getting the truth out about the true roots, so it would be better if the south Korean entities tried better to get out in front of this & set the record straight


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## puunui (Jan 2, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> But my point goes more towards the reputation of TKD. If the "Mecca of TKD", the World TKD Academy, the national Korean TKD group, the IF for Olympic TKD & several ministries of the ROK govt say TKD is 2,000 years old, students & people believe that.




I don't think anyone really takes that stuff seriously. I think you are making a bigger deal out of this than it warrants. Again, none of the pioneers talk about that stuff when discussing history, at least not with me. And the Modern History book starts with the founding of the kwans. What more do you want?


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 2, 2011)

I got GM Son's book for christmas.  It's an interesting read.  The patterns, not ones I know (he obviously wasn't going to adopt the Chang Hon tuls) but still interesting to see and easy enough to follow along.  I like that there are lots of pictures, showing correct and incorrect ways of doing things.  The SD section... let's skip it.  I might start using his Six Step, and maybe a few other things, but I did not get what I I thought I would get.  I guess I was expecting something more like GM Cho's The Complete Martial Artist.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_But my point goes more towards the  reputation of TKD. If the "Mecca of TKD", the World TKD Academy, the  national Korean TKD group, the IF for Olympic TKD & several  ministries of the ROK govt say TKD is 2,000 years old, students &  people believe that._


puunui said:


> I don't think anyone really takes that stuff seriously. I think you are making a bigger deal out of this than it warrants. Again, none of the pioneers talk about that stuff when discussing history, at least not with me. And the Modern History book starts with the founding of the kwans. What more do you want?


Actually I can't believe you wrote this. It is a big deal. In fact a very big deal. 
How many people do you think that the Kukki TKD Pioneers have really spoken to about history directly?
Point to any of these important people & show me, along with the other readers which if any, & I am sure there are, books that these Pioneers wrote or interviews that they gave, in which they have denied that TKD is 2,000 years old, shed any real light on the truth that TKD is a post WWII development or anything along those lines! In contrast, the KTA, KKW & WTF websites, along with every book that they have endorsed all repeat that mythical template.
Truth be told thanks go to Mr Kang Won Sik, current KKW president & Mr Lee, among others, like those who translated it, like Mr Glenn U & others, that this 1999 work was done during the administration of President Kim Dae Jung, only the 2nd democratically elected civilian president of the ROK. Mr Kim went on to win the Nobel Prize for Peace for his Sunshine Policy with the north. The military dictators were a thing of the past & now writers are more able to tell the truth, as govt censorship was fading. We will start to see more of the truth & complete story come out, like GM Lee Chong Woo's 2002 interview. The internet is also playing an important role in vetting the truth & spreading it. 
But untold millions have had their understanding of TKD's true history corrupted by the 2,000 year old myth that appears in countless books, publications endorsed by the south Korean TKD groups & their own websites, still to this very day.

I call upon all TKD leaders to put forth more info on the all important "formative years" then the simple paragraph or 2 of that oft repeated template!


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> But untold millions have had their understanding of TKD's true history corrupted by the 2,000 year old myth that appears in countless books, publications endorsed by the south Korean TKD groups & their own websites, still to this very day.




And untold millions still believe that General Choi is the founder of Taekwondo. So what?


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_But untold millions have had their  understanding of TKD's true history corrupted by the 2,000 year old myth  that appears in countless books, publications endorsed by the south  Korean TKD groups & their own websites, still to this very day._


puunui said:


> And untold millions still believe that General Choi is the founder of Taekwondo. So what?


It would be nice if you directed your answer to my point.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_But untold millions have had their  understanding of TKD's true history corrupted by the 2,000 year old myth  that appears in countless books, publications endorsed by the south  Korean TKD groups & their own websites, still to this very day._


puunui said:


> And untold millions still believe that General Choi is the founder of Taekwondo. So what?


OK the point is about the 2,000 year old myth. Now it is true that this has also caused confusion with Chang Hon stylists & Gen Choi sycophants, as it gives them the opening to spread their propagande. Now truth be told Gen Choi is the principle founder of Chang Hon TKD, ITF TKD or the TKD that was 1st called TKD.
However Gen Choi is just the principle founder of Taekwon-Do, not the sole founder. He was the leader of a team of talented soldiers who served under his command in the ROK military & then went on to follow him & spread their TK-D around the world, even before the KKW & WTF were formed.
No one that is informed & fair minded, with an open mind, can deny that Gen Choi was instrumental in his own system of TK-D!


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

So what if untold millions have had their understanding of history corrupted by the 2000 year thing? Most practitioners don't even care about Taekwondo's history, anymore than the average tennis player cares about tennis history. FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei in his autobiography couldn't give an accurate account of Karate's history beyond his own teachers.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

puunui said:


> So what if untold millions have had their understanding of history corrupted by the 2000 year thing? Most practitioners don't even care about Taekwondo's history, anymore than the average tennis player cares about tennis history. FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei in his autobiography couldn't give an accurate account of Karate's history beyond his own teachers.


Yes there are often many who don't care about history, hence they are all too often "doomed to repeat it"!
History is history for history's sake. 
We all must do our part to insure that a more complete & accurate history of our respected TKD is preserved for transmission to future TKDin for all time. It is to me a laudable goal, is it not?
Don't you Puunui agree?
Don't other readers agree?

Because people do not care about history, does not give any excuse to ignore the truth, nor does it allow others to fabricate myths & spread it as history!


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> We all must do our part to insure that a more complete & accurate history of our respected TKD is preserved for transmission to future TKDin for all time. It is to me a laudable goal, is it not? Don't you Puunui agree?




I used to think so, but I'm beginning to think not. Frankly, I'm tired of thinking about General Choi, because when I do, I have to sift through the convoluted web of lies and fabrications. I don't want to think about him, anymore than the pioneers want to think about him. For me, thinking about General Choi is like thinking about the door ding and rust spot on your car. To the average car driver, it doesn't matter if General Choi came up with the name "automobile" or not. They don't care if General Choi made the most cars by himself by hand. If General Choi wants to write a book and take credit for everything that Henry Ford did, then he is free to do so. But please don't ask me to comment anymore on the claims contained in General Choi's "The History of the Automobile" book. I don't want to think about what was written in that book. It gives me a headache.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

Sad & I might add a bit beneath someone of your stature. Imagine not crediting someone who did so much for so many in another style of martial art, just because he was the troublemaker for those in another style.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 3, 2011)

This is another reason why the 2,000 year old most be thrown out the window, it only provides cannon fodder for opposing view points


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## puunui (Jan 3, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Imagine not crediting someone who did so much for so many in another style of martial art, just because he was the troublemaker for those in another style.




Not because he was a troublemaker, but because he lied so much. GM Son said he lied in the newspaper article, GM LEE Chong Woo said he lied in the yook article, he admitted to Taekkyon GM LEE Yong Bok that he lied about learning Taekkyon on videotape, GM LEE Won Kuk said he lied about his karate training in Japan. If you wish to give credit to his accomplishments in ITF, then go for it. But I think you want more than that, you want recognition from outside of ITF, from the Kukkiwon, WTF and perhaps other places as well.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> ................. If General Choi wants to write a book and take credit for everything that Henry Ford did, then he is free to do so. But please don't ask me to comment anymore on the claims contained in General Choi's "The History of the Automobile" book. I don't want to think about what was written in that book. It gives me a headache.


 
Interesting analogy. I think it appropriate. Perhaps Henry Ford did not invent the automobile. But he made it available to the masses thru various processes and standardazation. 

Seems like General Choi was to TKD what Henry Ford was to automobiles. And just like Henry Ford his rivals and competitors who got left behind dissed him. 

Ober time some newer competitors began to take away market share.


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## miguksaram (Jan 4, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Sad & I might add a bit beneath someone of your stature. Imagine not crediting someone who did so much for so many in another style of martial art, just because he was the troublemaker for those in another style.


From what I have read thus far, it should be Nam, Tae-hi who gets the credit.  It seems he was the one who had the real martial art knowledge and Gen. Choi just had the connections.  

I see it now...GM Nam runs in to Gen Choi's office.  "Sir, we should make sure that the troops use a bit more hip when punching."  Gen. Choi "I have a better idea, we should make sure that when troops are punching that their hips are used a bit more.  I'm glad I thought of that."


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 4, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> From what I have read thus far, it should be Nam, Tae-hi who gets the credit.  It seems he was the one who had the real martial art knowledge and Gen. Choi just had the connections.


That is funny, as Puunui says GM Nam was a novice of some sorts.


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## terryl965 (Jan 4, 2011)

You know all the TKD history has people perspective on it and heersay, just because one senior say this and another say the opposite. We as TKD'ers need to believe what we consider to be the truth out there, not one single person has given enough proof one way or another to sway an argument in there favor. Just because someone writes a book does not mean all the content is spot on and just because someone sit down with a cup of green tea does not mean his stories is the gospel truth.

I have read and talked to alot of senior and alot of books and one thing is for sure if senior one does not like senior two than senior two story is wrong and vs. versa. For every book that say this there is another saying something completely different, even people that was there have two different version to tell. So in closing I would suggest that we all remember it is what we believe and how we continue to train in the art/sport and how we pass the material down from us to our students. This is what will shape our MA and this is how we can make a more positive unified approach to the developement to TKD.
:asian:


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 4, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> You know all the TKD history has people perspective on it and heersay, just because one senior say this and another say the opposite. We as TKD'ers need to believe what we consider to be the truth out there, not one single person has given enough proof one way or another to sway an argument in there favor. Just because someone writes a book does not mean all the content is spot on and just because someone sit down with a cup of green tea does not mean his stories is the gospel truth.
> 
> I have read and talked to alot of senior and alot of books and one thing is for sure if senior one does not like senior two than senior two story is wrong and vs. versa. For every book that say this there is another saying something completely different, even people that was there have two different version to tell. So in closing I would suggest that we all remember it is what we believe and how we continue to train in the art/sport and how we pass the material down from us to our students. This is what will shape our MA and this is how we can make a more positive unified approach to the developement to TKD.
> :asian:


Yes of course we do need to get independent verification of what people said & proof of what happened. This process is now underway & has been in some form or another, since the military dictators have long been gone & freedom of speech & the press is now flourishing is south Korea. This is why you see the Modern History in 1999 & the Yook interview in 2002. The nasty politics that manipulated the truth, hid facts & wrote people out of history for various reasons are now gone, so more of what actually happened in coming to the surface.
So it is not what we believe, but more of = is what I believe based in reality, do I have support for my beliefs, can I filter through the propaganda put out by so many for numerous reasons?


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> That is funny, as Puunui says GM Nam was a novice of some sorts.



I didn't say, GM LEE Won Kuk and the Chung Do Kwan seniors said.


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes of course we do need to get independent verification of what people said & proof of what happened. This process is now underway & has been in some form or another, since the military dictators have long been gone & freedom of speech & the press is now flourishing is south Korea. This is why you see the Modern History in 1999 & the Yook interview in 2002. The nasty politics that manipulated the truth, hid facts & wrote people out of history for various reasons are now gone, so more of what actually happened in coming to the surface.



I guess if you say it enough times, maybe some people will believe you. The General Choi approach.




KarateMomUSA said:


> So it is not what we believe, but more of = is what I believe based in reality, do I have support for my beliefs, can I filter through the propaganda put out by so many for numerous reasons?



I think you believe you can do that, but I don't believe you can.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 4, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> From what I have read thus far, it should be Nam, Tae-hi who gets the credit. It seems he was the one who had the real martial art knowledge and Gen. Choi just had the connections.
> 
> I see it now...GM Nam runs in to Gen Choi's office. "Sir, we should make sure that the troops use a bit more hip when punching." Gen. Choi "I have a better idea, we should make sure that when troops are punching that their hips are used a bit more. I'm glad I thought of that."


 
Obviously, GM Nam, Tae Hi was a great asset to Gen. Choi and I am glad that he's gotten a bit of "press" in the last decade or so. I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about who should get the credit. Anybody have any resources about what he has said on the subject?

Pax,

Chris


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## miguksaram (Jan 5, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> That is funny, as Puunui says GM Nam was a novice of some sorts.


Which may very well be, but it seemed his novice knowledge still trumped Gen. Choi's "expert" knowledge.  That says a lot right there.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 5, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Which may very well be, but it seemed his novice knowledge still trumped Gen. Choi's "expert" knowledge. That says a lot right there.


 
Have you asked GM Nam about Gen. Choi's experience when they founded the Oh Do Kwan? Or about why a General would or wouldn't directly train all of the men under his command? I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about those things.

Pax,

Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> I guess if you say it enough times, maybe some people will believe you. The General Choi approach.


Sir, would you please stop with the veiled personal digs?  

You have a lot to contribute and you certainly are knowledgeable.  You do not need to take the low shots. 

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> I have some of Hee Il Cho's books, and I find them useful. The Complete Master's Kick is essential for anyone that wants to develop great technique. Once I lose enough weight to get decently off the ground I'll pick up his book on jumping kicks.


I have that one!!  Great book!!

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> From what I have read thus far, it should be Nam, Tae-hi who gets the credit. It seems he was the one who had the real martial art knowledge and Gen. Choi just had the connections.


I'm sure that Choi had real MA knowledge, though I'm not going to get into who had more.  

Anytime you have a leader with a strong personality or an organization that revolves around a small number of leaders, there will always be unsung heroes.  It is always great when the unsung receive their due credit.

Regarding connections, connections go a very long way in building an organization.  Of course, having highly knowledgeable and competent people to support you is vital as well, something that some leaders do not like to acknowledge. 

Daniel


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 5, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Which may very well be, but it seemed his novice knowledge still trumped Gen. Choi's "expert" knowledge. That says a lot right there.


 
You make the above statement based on ......what?


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## puunui (Jan 5, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sir, would you please stop with the veiled personal digs?
> You have a lot to contribute and you certainly are knowledgeable.  You do not need to take the low shots. Daniel




You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me, it wasn't a "veiled personal dig"; it was the truth. Not only that, it was based on an argument that the Kukkiwon pioneers created the 2000 year old "lie", when in fact it was General Choi who started it in his 1965 book, which Karate Mom has told us repeatedly that it was the first english work on Taekwondo. General Choi was the one who attempted to link Taekwondo to Taekkyon, because President RHEE Syngman saw that 1954 Tang Soo Do demonstration and exclaimed "That's Taekkyon". 

The statement by Karatemom is also a "veiled personal dig" because it implies that there has not been any "independent verification" or "proof" of what happened. I quoted General Choi's 1965 book as "verification" and "proof" as to exactly who created the Taekkyon/Taekwondo myth. Do you really think this is still up for debate, that search for the truth is still ongoing on this issue? 

The statement by Karatemom is also offensive from the standpoint that she makes the "veiled personal dig" that "military dictators" somehow suppressed the truth about Taekwondo's history and that now that they are gone, freedom of speech and the press has finally allowing the truth to come out. The truth of the matter is that General Choi started the myth with his 1965 book, which karatemom tells us over and over is the first work on Taekwondo in english. 

The fact of the matter is that the truth was always out there for anyone to discover and it was out there prior to 1999. I know because I was discussing Taekwondo's history before that book was published and was saying basically the same thing that the Modern History book discusses. The pioneers all discuss openly and frankly the origins of their art and they freely tell the history to anyone who asks. 

I think GM LEE Chong Woo says it best about General Choi: "When he opens his mouth, he tells lies. It is not worth responding to that. He is a bad person under the sky. Some badly informed people think he is someone great, but he is a man without a gall bladder [inconsistent]. I know him well.

and if you don't like that quote, here's another:

[Reporters Comment]: President Choi makes his own point that his relationship
with President Chung Hee Park became uncomfortable due to his opposition to the
revision of the constitution that would allow a third presidential term, and there was an
organized plot in the Taekwondo community that might harm him.

[Chong Woo Lees Response]: That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting
around situations by cooking up different stories. He tells stories one way in one place,
and then when he is asked, 'Isn't this story different from the one you just gave few
minutes ago?' he manages to gloss over it saying, 'That one was a joke and this one is the real story.' During President Chung Hee Park's term when Hong Hi Choi was serving as
Ambassador to Malaysia, he was called home and accused of embezzlement of official
government funds. Meanwhile, Un Yong Kim, who was working for the Presidential
Security Service for the Blue House, was coming into the Taekwondo leadership, and
Choi slipped out and ran away. I can give you a lot of evidence of his lies.

or another:

[Reporters Question]: But, in Hong Hi Chois book, he writes that President
Syngman Rhee did write the calligraphy for him.

[Chong Woo Lees Response]: That is a lie. That one was written by Hong Hi
Choi. That was Chois calligraphy. President Chung Hee Park later gave the official
calligraphy for 'Taekwondo' to Un Yong Kim. If Choi had received the one from the
President [Syngman Rhee], he would have evidence. He fabricated the story after we
received the calligraphy written by President Chung Hee Park in 1970, because he did not
want to appear inferior to us. Before that, I had never heard Hong Hi Choi bring out the
story of having received the calligraphy. If he had received it, why hadnt he made it
known to the public by then?



 					Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Yes of course we do need to get  independent verification of what people said & proof of what  happened. This process is now underway & has been in some form or  another, since the military dictators have long been gone & freedom  of speech & the press is now flourishing is south Korea. This is why  you see the Modern History in 1999 & the Yook interview in 2002.  The nasty politics that manipulated the truth, hid facts & wrote  people out of history for various reasons are now gone, so more of what  actually happened in coming to the surface.
_


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2011)

I have not given an opinion of you, sir, so your comment about my opinion is unwarranted. 

This is not the first shot you've taken since coming onto this board. A personal dig is one that is applied directly to another individual on this board. Karatemom's comments about the KKW promoting a 2000 year old lie is not a personal dig. Statements made about SK presidents, pioneers, or statements that 'past military dictators somehow suppressed the truth about Taekwondo's history and that now that they are gone, freedom of speech and the press has finally allowing the truth to come out' are not personal digs.

I read your post, but nowhere do I find that you demonstrate that she has made personal digs against you. 

You may feel very personally about the subject matter, but that does not make her comments personal digs. If she were calling you a liar or making comments about 'the koolade' or things along those lines, I would have made the same suggestion to her.

Your comment, however applied directly to her. You have made other veiled personal digs here as well, such as suggesting to a longtime member that he would fit in on Ray Terry's board after saying rather scathing things about Ray Terry (whoever he is/was) and his board.

You are an educated man and you are highly knowdedgeable about the subject at hand. By and large, I enjoy your posts, sir, and I do feel that your presence here has been a benefit to the TKD section (if you really want my opinion of you). You have brought a fresh perspective and you support your statements very, very well (something that I personally like quite a bit). The quality of your posts is certainly high and you have no need to resort to snyde comments, low shots or personal digs. 

I'm not a moderator here, nor do I play one on TV. But there has already been a general mod warning about the recent tenor of the TKD section. I figured that I'd address the issue directly and politely so as to avoid threadlock. 

You seem like a reasonable gent, so hopefully, you will see where I'm coming from. Believe me when I say that I do not dislike you nor am I picking on you.  Actually, I think fairly highly of you, as the many thanks I have given to you in posts, as well as positive reputation, should indicate.

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 5, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I read your post, but nowhere do I find that you demonstrate that she has made personal digs against you.




It is a personal dig to the pioneers, that they were somehow part of a huge conspiracy to deny General Choi his exalted place in Taekwondo history and the point was made by repeating the same lies that General Choi has told for decades.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> It is a personal dig to the pioneers, that they were somehow part of a huge conspiracy to deny General Choi his exalted place in Taekwondo history and the point was made by repeating the same lies that General Choi has told for decades.


That does not qualify as a personal dig to you, sir.  

Look, the pioneers _probably_ don't care what some nobodies say about them on the  internet.   And with very few exceptions, we're all essentially nobodies on the  internet.

There people who come on here and slam taekwondo, the Kukkiwon, traditional arts in general, Korean arts, etc.  So long as they do not attack me personally, I am content to respond to them with facts.  If the discussion seems to be going nowhere, I bow out.  If they attack me personally, I ignore them or point a moderator to the offending post and refrain from further response, no fuss, no muss.

I reiterate, I have a high degree of respect for you, sir.  

I do not always agree with you, but your opinions and perspectives are ones that I consider to be of value.  You are the first person to *ever* get me to start thinking of the sport and the art as part of a contiguous whole rather than as two separate entities, and that's saying something!  While I haven't _quite_ come around to your way of thinking on that subject (still mulling that over), I found your thoughts on the subject to be quite compelling.

Thank you,

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> I guess if you say it enough times, maybe some people will believe you. The General Choi approach.
> I think you believe you can do that, but I don't believe you can.


Yes I am very consistent in my approach, but also very open to learning more. I seek more info & am happy when you share it. I appreciate that & your perspective. To understand Gen Choi & his approach, you have to understand the nasty Korean politics. Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 5, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Which may very well be, but it seemed his novice knowledge still trumped Gen. Choi's "expert" knowledge.  That says a lot right there.


No GM Nam was a super talented martial artist. I am sure that he had more physical talent than Gen Choi did. However GM Nam says it was Gen Choi that made the patterns & GM Nam, among others worked out the moves for him.
Again there has never been any Korean or martial artists that i know of that was able to accomplish what Gen Choi did & have such a world-wide following, that was moving so standard around the globe to his exact direction.


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## puunui (Jan 5, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That does not qualify as a personal dig to you, sir.



Maybe not to you, but it is to me.


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## puunui (Jan 5, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.




General Choi doesn't need to acknowledge Kukki Taekwondo; no one from Kukki Taekwondo has ever asked General Choi to do such a thing. In the same light, the pioneers or anyone else does not need to acknowledge General Choi, or his contributions, especially when those contributions apply only to his own private organization. If you wish to recognize General Choi's contributions, then you are free to do so but attempting to force General Choi to acknowledge Kukki Taekwondo or have Kukki Taekwondo acknowledge General Choi, that I think is wrong.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe not to you, but it is to me.


Fair enough.  I trust you have your reasons.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes I am very consistent in my approach, but also very open to learning more. I seek more info & am happy when you share it. I appreciate that & your perspective. To understand Gen Choi & his approach, you have to understand the nasty Korean politics. Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong.


No offense, but why would they?  It isn't as if the General's parting with those who formed the Kukkiwon was all warm and fuzzy.  Each system is a fine system and can be appreciated for their merits.  But I certainly don't expect them to pat each other on the back and go out of their way to give acknowledgments to each other.  The Kukkiwon did what it set out to do and has its position secured.  They really don't need to acknowledge Gen. Choi.  The General and his people put together their own system and organization and went their own way.  They probably do not see it as beneficial to acknowledge the Kukkiwon either.

I rather liked the Rashamon analogy made in another thread.  Really kind of fits.

As for the politics, all politics have a degree of nastiness.  

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me, it wasn't a "veiled personal dig"; it was the truth. Not only that, it was based on an argument that the Kukkiwon pioneers created the 2000 year old "lie", when in fact it was General Choi who started it in his 1965 book, which Karate Mom has told us repeatedly that it was the first english work on Taekwondo. General Choi was the one who attempted to link Taekwondo to Taekkyon, because President RHEE Syngman saw that 1954 Tang Soo Do demonstration and exclaimed "That's Taekkyon".
> The statement by Karatemom is also a "veiled personal dig" because it implies that there has not been any "independent verification" or "proof" of what happened. I quoted General Choi's 1965 book as "verification" and "proof" as to exactly who created the Taekkyon/Taekwondo myth. Do you really think this is still up for debate, that search for the truth is still ongoing on this issue?


No I simply pointed you to the words of GM Lee Chong Woo who said he made it up. So who is lying? Did GM Lee lie, because he stole this idea from Gen Choi?
Gen Choi attempted to link TKD to Taek Kyon, as that would save face for Koreans as the biggest influence on TKD was karate from Japan. Or at least the 7 Koreans that learned martial arts abroad & took it back to Korea starting the 6 early kwans all studied karate, with some Chinese influnce as well. Linking his TKD to Taek Kyon simply shows that Korea had some form a indigenous martial art at some point in time prior to the occupation. Well then I guess this is another contribution by Gen Choi, no?
Gen Choi always made clear that he came up with his system from karate. He never hide those roots at all.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> The statement by Karatemom is also offensive from the standpoint that she makes the "veiled personal dig" that "military dictators" somehow suppressed the truth about Taekwondo's history and that now that they are gone, freedom of speech and the press has finally allowing the truth to come out. The truth of the matter is that General Choi started the myth with his 1965 book, which karatemom tells us over and over is the first work on Taekwondo in english.
> The fact of the matter is that the truth was always out there for anyone to discover and it was out there prior to 1999. I know because I was discussing Taekwondo's history before that book was published and was saying basically the same thing that the Modern History book discusses. The pioneers all discuss openly and frankly the origins of their art and they freely tell the history to anyone who asks.


Again Sir you are inaccurate with your response to my points. Gen Choi's life & that of his followers in the ITF was made miserable by the military dictators Gens Park & Chun. This was done to silence him, as he had become a leading & vocal overseas critic of the brutality of those dicatorships. The campaign they waged on him & his innocent instructors, as they did not engage in any "anti-nationalist activity", was what must be understood, if we are to comprehend the context of these turbulent times.
Plus as I already pointed out, but do not recall you responding to, if the Kukki TKD leaders did say the history all along, they were not vocal, they did not write about it & that template that was fabricated was simply the company line & still is. So while it may be wonderful that they may have always spoke the truth, very few ever heard it or read about it, as their websites still have the 2,000 year old myth still there for the millions of TKDin & the general public to be mislead!


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> I think GM LEE Chong Woo says it best about General Choi: "When he opens his mouth, he tells lies. It is not worth responding to that. He is a bad person under the sky. Some badly informed people think he is someone great, but he is a man without a gall bladder [inconsistent]. I know him well.


Yes I am aware that GM Lee, a govt official, working foru south Korea to promote their national sport, did not like Gen Choi at all. I believe the feeling with them was mutual. I also think that understanding this anomosity & the context of those times, especially when the military dictators, Gens Park & Chun were trying to silence his political opposition voice & global network that he had in place, via the ITF. Readers also must evaluate motive when weighing whatever evidence is out forth. GM Lee was after all involved via his own admission in cheating for Korean players in what his own words call "branch trimming".
Bottom line is GM Lee did great things for Kukki TKD, as did Gen Choi with his original TKD. It is a shame that these 2 martial artists could not appreciate the contributions they made to some many around the world.
It is also a shame in my view for fellow martial artists to continue to ignore these great accomplishments. I for one thank them both. I still do not think that any Korean martial artist had the impact that Gen Choi did with his teachings.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> [Reporters Question]: But, in Hong Hi Chois book, he writes that President Syngman Rhee did write the calligraphy for him.
> 
> [Chong Woo Lees Response]: That is a lie. That one was written by Hong Hi
> Choi. That was Chois calligraphy. President Chung Hee Park later gave the official
> ...


OK here is where I respectfully suggest that we evaluate this more fully, than just taking the words of someone who had such great dislike for Gen Choi.
Now we know Gen Choi submitted the name. We know the panel wanted to seek approval from President Rhee, the puppet president who Puuunui says was no saint. 
Then GM Lee says: 
"He (Gen Choi) fabricated the story after we received the calligraphy written by President Chung Hee Park in 1970, because he did not want to appear inferior to us. Before that, I had never heard Hong Hi Choi bring out the story of having received the calligraphy."
So I ask you, what about the 1959 book of Gen Choi, the 1st book ever written on TKD? in it, there is the caligraphy of President Rhee writing it in Chinese. So Gen Choi didn't make up the story in 1970, as the evidence predates that by 11 years. I am sure that GM Lee just did not realize that it was in the book. 
See, these things are not so easy to sort out. But of course if we only listen to 1 side, a side that admits outright their lack of respect & refusal to acknowledge anything the other side does, we also can be misled or miss out on more of the complete story.

The truth of the matter is that Gen Choi came up with the name TKD in 1954. He offered it out as an umbrella term & it was rejected. However his followers used the name from that time, till today. It was the TaeSuDo guys that finally started to accept it, after Gen Choi's insistence in 1965. After that, others starting to apply the name TKD as well, with the Kwans being numbered & retired in 1978. 
Do you think that this may be a reason that this info is left out of the mix?


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You are an educated man and you are highly knowdedgeable about the subject at hand. By and large, I enjoy your posts, sir, and I do feel that your presence here has been a benefit to the TKD section (if you really want my opinion of you). You have brought a fresh perspective and you support your statements very, very well (something that I personally like quite a bit). The quality of your posts is certainly high........


I agree totally. I also try my best to refrain from anything not in line with the 5 Tenets of TKD as outlined by Gen Choi. If anything I have ever posted in accordance to these Tenets, please direct me to it & I will make amends.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> It is a personal dig to the pioneers, that they were somehow part of a huge conspiracy to deny General Choi his exalted place in Taekwondo history and the point was made by repeating the same lies that General Choi has told for decades.


I am sorry that you feel this way. I have no anomosity to no man. I value the contributions of the Kukki TKD leaders very much, as I do the contributions that Gen Choi & his team made as well. I for one find no problem at all in saying thanks & crediting people that have done good.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong._


puunui said:


> General Choi doesn't need to acknowledge Kukki Taekwondo; no one from Kukki Taekwondo has ever asked General Choi to do such a thing. In the same light, the pioneers or anyone else does not need to acknowledge General Choi, or his contributions, especially when those contributions apply only to his own private organization. If you wish to recognize General Choi's contributions, then you are free to do so but attempting to force General Choi to acknowledge Kukki Taekwondo or have Kukki Taekwondo acknowledge General Choi, that I think is wrong.


Of course I can't force Gen Choi to acknowlege Kukki TKD, as he has passed a better place. I do think it was wrong for him to take the approach that he did. I think the time for those battles are gone. I am glad that the TKD Park will credit him. I also think that "his own private organization" was not so private, with some 100 plus countries that fielded world championships with 50-70 nations showing up & doing his patterns in such a standardized fashion, that spectators might think that they were from the same school, same teacher. Of course they were from his ITF. I am glad that the WTF is now holding world poomsae championships, as I think that will help their standardization. I do know from personal experience that it is hard to do & am amzed that Gen Choi was able to accomplish that so well.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

Quote: Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 _Yes I am very consistent in my approach, but also very open to learning more. I seek more info & am happy when you share it. I appreciate that & your perspective. To understand Gen Choi & his approach, you have to understand the nasty Korean politics. Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong._



Daniel Sullivan said:


> No offense, but why would they? It isn't as if the General's parting with those who formed the Kukkiwon was all warm and fuzzy. Each system is a fine system and can be appreciated for their merits. But I certainly don't expect them to pat each other on the back and go out of their way to give acknowledgments to each other. The Kukkiwon did what it set out to do and has its position secured. They really don't need to acknowledge Gen. Choi. The General and his people put together their own system and organization and went their own way. They probably do not see it as beneficial to acknowledge the Kukkiwon either.


No offense taken. This is not personal for me. If TKD is to be one, all TKDin should feel welcomed, should they not?
Kukki TKD does not have to do anything at all. There are different from the original TKD. They are bigger & the world has come to know TKD as Kukki TKD, the Olympis sport. The KTA, KKW & WTF do not need the ITF. However since the Kukki TKD leaders had a plan & a vision of bringing all TKDin together, then it may be helpful to be seen as somewhat respectful for outside TKDin, would it not?
In any event, once the World TKD Academy gets around to updating the history of TKD, they should make it more complete, they are after all the driving force behind TKD.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 6, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA*
> 
> _Yes I am very consistent in my approach, but also very open to learning more. I seek more info & am happy when you share it. I appreciate that & your perspective. To understand Gen Choi & his approach, you have to understand the nasty Korean politics. Gen Choi simply did not acknowledge that Kukki TKD was TKD, as it was not his TKD or original TKD. That I think is wrong. However it seems that many in Kukki TKD do not want to acknowledge his many contributions, especially with Chang Hon TKD. That I think is wrong._
> 
> ...


Making people feel welcome is one thing, but compromising their own established history is another.  If the Kukkiwon leaders do not feel that the General's accomplishments were relevant outside of the ITF, then there really is no reason for them to acknowledge them.  Why should a non KKW member require this in order to feel welcomed?  It isn't as if the Kukkiwon is dictating to them what history to believe or to tell their students.  If you came into the Kukkiwon, they aren't going to give you a history test and fail you for acknowledging General Choi.



KarateMomUSA said:


> Kukki TKD does not have to do anything at all. There are different from the original TKD. They are bigger & the world has come to know TKD as Kukki TKD, the Olympis sport. The KTA, KKW & WTF do not need the ITF.


So again, why go back and make acknowledgements that they not only do not want to make, but do not feel are valid?



KarateMomUSA said:


> However since the Kukki TKD leaders had a plan & a vision of bringing all TKDin together, then it may be helpful to be seen as somewhat respectful for outside TKDin, would it not?


Being respectful does not mean changing one's established history.  



KarateMomUSA said:


> In any event, once the World TKD Academy gets around to updating the history of TKD, they should make it more complete, they are after all the driving force behind TKD.


I have heard this arguement before.  I'm not going to weigh in on it, but I will say that I wouldn't hold my breath on any major revisions to what is on the Kukkiwon website.  The history presented there is meant as a working history and an overview.  It is by no means comprehensive and the only name mentioned is Song Duk Ki, and he is mentioned as a master of _Taekkyeon_do.  Needless to say, hardly anyone is getting acknowledgement.  

The history makes no mention of specific kwans, their leaders, or any of the pioneers who founded the Kukkiwon.  If they are not being acknowledged, why should General Choi be acknowledged?  And why would an ITF person trying to join the Kukkiwon see this as a problem?

I own a copy of the Kukkiwon textbook, and there isn't exactly a detailed history there either.  Unless you go looking to open up a heated topic, the subject isn't going to come up. 

Funny thing is that KKW folks don't go demanding that the ITF recognize the accomplishments of KKW pioneers.  The demand is pretty much one sided.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Jan 6, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No GM Nam was a super talented martial artist. I am sure that he had more physical talent than Gen Choi did. However GM Nam says it was Gen Choi that made the patterns & GM Nam, among others worked out the moves for him.


Cool...so Choi had an imagination.  



			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> Again there has never been any Korean or martial artists that i know of that was able to accomplish what Gen Choi did & have such a world-wide following, that was moving so standard around the globe to his exact direction.


I have to say that either you do not know many martial artists outside of TKD or that your definition of accomplishment and mine are quite different.  So again I submit the following Koreans who have accomplished what Choi did: Mas Oyama, Hwang Ki, Cho, Hee-il, Kim, Joeng-ho.  Now the following non-Korean martial artists: Fumio Demura, Morei-Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, Bruce Lee, William Cheung, Yip Man, Remy Presas, the Gracies...The list goes on.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 6, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I have to say that either you do not know many martial artists outside of TKD or that your definition of accomplishment and mine are quite different.


People often have different criteria.  Depends on what is important to them or what standard they go by.  Some consider Bruce Lee to be the greatest martial artist of all time.  Others do not.  Different criteria.  



miguksaram said:


> So again I submit the following Koreans who have accomplished what Choi did: Mas Oyama, Hwang Ki, Cho, Hee-il, Kim, Joeng-ho.


I would add Jhoon Rhee to that list as well.



miguksaram said:


> Now the following non-Korean martial artists: Fumio Demura, Morei-Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, Bruce Lee, William Cheung, Yip Man, Remy Presas, the Gracies...The list goes on.


Lets not forget Chuck Norris, lest he read this thread and realize he was slighted.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Jan 6, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would add Jhoon Rhee to that list as well.


I thought about him as well, but wasn't sure if he had a world wide following.  Definetly a leader in the US.



			
				Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> Lets not forget Chuck Norris, lest he read this thread and realize he was slighted.l


Let's face it Chuck Norris is the John Wayne of our time.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 6, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I thought about him as well, but wasn't sure if he had a world wide following. Definetly a leader in the US.


True.  I don't know what degree of international following he has either.



miguksaram said:


> Let's face it Chuck Norris is the John Wayne of our time.


Maybe he should have played Rooster Cogburn in the new True Grit film.

Daniel


----------



## puunui (Jan 6, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No I simply pointed you to the words of GM Lee Chong Woo who said he made it up. So who is lying? Did GM Lee lie, because he stole this idea from Gen Choi?
> 
> Here is the translation is that you are talking about:
> 
> ...


----------



## puunui (Jan 6, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Maybe he should have played Rooster Cogburn in the new True Grit film.



I liked the remake much more than the original, which was pretty good. Jeff Bridges was a terrific Rooster. The girl who played Mattie should win an Oscar for her performance.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> I liked the remake much more than the original, which was pretty good. Jeff Bridges was a terrific Rooster. The girl who played Mattie should win an Oscar for her performance.


Thanks for the heads up!  I'm hoping to see it this weekend.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> I liked the remake much more than the original, which was pretty good. Jeff Bridges was a terrific Rooster. The girl who played Mattie should win an Oscar for her performance.


I'm looking forward to seeing it too.  Thanks for the info.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 8, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Making people feel welcome is one thing, but compromising their own established history is another.  If the Kukkiwon leaders do not feel that the General's accomplishments were relevant outside of the ITF, then there really is no reason for them to acknowledge them.  Why should a non KKW member require this in order to feel welcomed?  It isn't as if the Kukkiwon is dictating to them what history to believe or to tell their students.  If you came into the Kukkiwon, they aren't going to give you a history test and fail you for acknowledging General Choi.
> 
> I have heard this arguement before.  I'm not going to weigh in on it, but I will say that I wouldn't hold my breath on any major revisions to what is on the Kukkiwon website.  The history presented there is meant as a working history and an overview.  It is by no means comprehensive and the only name mentioned is Song Duk Ki, and he is mentioned as a master of _Taekkyeon_do.  Needless to say, hardly anyone is getting acknowledgement.
> 
> ...


This is exactly my point. The KTA, KKW & WTF do not make mention of any of them. I am not speaking only of Gen Choi, but all 7 Koreans who went abroad & returned opening the 5 original kwans or 6 early kwans or the 9 major kwans etc. I never meant that the KKW should mention only Gen Choi, but all of them, much like the Modern History does. My complaint is that the 2,000 year old story is disrespectful to these Koreans who did so much for Korea, teaching the world about Korea, putting a friendly face on Korea, a face that had a man behind it that they looked up to as their TKD instructor that actually put or showed people where on the world map Korea was!
Far too many people have simply been ignored by the official version of history put out by these south Korean TKD entities, basically for the national pride. This to me is an outrage, as these great Koreans & all the 2nd generation men who made Kukki TKD did more for Korean national pride than anyone!
They all need to be credited!


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 8, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> People often have different criteria.  Depends on what is important to them or what standard they go by.  Some consider Bruce Lee to be the greatest martial artist of all time.  Others do not.  Different criteria.
> 
> I would add Jhoon Rhee to that list as well.


No, while GM Jhoon Rhee is an icon, he simply does not measure up to the arbitrary criteria I set up. of course I used that criteria because I knew no one that would measure up.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> I liked the remake much more than the original, which was pretty good. Jeff Bridges was a terrific Rooster. The girl who played Mattie should win an Oscar for her performance.


See we can agree  
While she was great, I think Amy Adams in "The Fighter" might beat her out. I guess it will depend on what category if they are nominated, supporting or leading actress.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 8, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I have to say that either you do not know many martial artists outside of TKD or that your definition of accomplishment and mine are quite different.  So again I submit the following Koreans who have accomplished what Choi did: Mas Oyama, Hwang Ki, Cho, Hee-il, Kim, Joeng-ho.  Now the following non-Korean martial artists: Fumio Demura, Morei-Ueshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, Bruce Lee, William Cheung, Yip Man, Remy Presas, the Gracies...The list goes on.


Again I am not trying to say that Gen choi was a better martial artist than any of these other greats. I simply listed criteria, arbitrary I know, but selected for the reason that I do not think any can match all of that criteria.

So to restate the criteria that I am asking people to weigh in on specifically is:
1) Wrote the amount of books that Gen Choi did, along with in-depth    
or comprehensive nature of some, ie 15 volume set of Encyclopedias, the 1st ever books on TKD
2) Taught all around the world directly to students
3) A travel schedule that had him cross the world several times a year
4) Presiding over world championships for 28 years
5) Having an exact technical standard that he personally set & taught, so that when a world championship was held some 60 nations would show up & the pattern competition was judged by who came closest to the exact standard he set

I have to be honest as I do not know much about the non-Koreans, but still have never seen anyone who could match this specific criteria that I purposely set as I knew it would be hard to match!
So is there anyone 1 martial artist that can exceed Gen Choi in all 5 of these categories that he accomplished over his lifetime?


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 9, 2011)

puunui said:


> I was looking through my older english Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do books and they all have that same one or two page blurb in the introduction of their 500 or 700 page book. If you have a problem with that, then your problem isn't with the pioneers, or with GM LEE Chong Woo, it's with everyone who wrote a book, because they all do it. And frankly, no one takes that stuff seriously. I know I don't. But if you wish to give credit for this "lie", then credit General Choi. Afterall, you did tell us repeatedly that he wrote the first Taekwondo book in english, right?
> 
> So if General Choi does it, it's ok, but if others do it, it's not. Got it.
> 
> ...


No sir I am sorry but he does make reference to this throughout the 1965 book. Check the flaps, both inside front & back, along with notes on the author etc. he makes it clear that it was a fusion that included karate. He always spoke about his karate roots.
Now please direct me to any place where these other publications list their karate training or the link to karate.
The official KTA, KKW & WTF simply do not do this.


----------



## bluewaveschool (Jan 9, 2011)

Can we get back on topic?  I'm tired of reading the same pissing contest about Gen. Choi in multiple threads.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 10, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No, while GM Jhoon Rhee is an icon, he simply does not measure up to the arbitrary criteria I set up. of course I used that criteria because I knew no one that would measure up.


If you take a single individual and make their specific accomplishments the criteria, nobody other than them will measure up.  If I took Steven Seagal's specific accomplishment and made those the standard, only Seagal would measure up.  Same for Chuck Norris.  The general cannot match Chuck Norris' accomplishments, partly because the General was not a competitor and didn't make movies.

Rhee and Norris are icons.  Choi is not.  Do being icons make Rhee's and Norris' accomplishment better than Choi's?  No.  But being icons means that they can do things that the general could not.  Just as his being a general allowed him to do things that they could not.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Jan 10, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Again I am not trying to say that Gen choi was a better martial artist than any of these other greats. I simply listed criteria, arbitrary I know, but selected for the reason that I do not think any can match all of that criteria.
> 
> So to restate the criteria that I am asking people to weigh in on specifically is:
> 1) Wrote the amount of books that Gen Choi did, along with in-depth
> or comprehensive nature of some, ie 15 volume set of Encyclopedias, the 1st ever books on TKD


This is probably the only one I can give you.  Though I do believe Cho, Hee-il has several books that have been followed closely.



			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> 2) Taught all around the world directly to students


For Koreans you should have to take into account that Ji, Han-jae as well as Cho, Hee-il and Sik, Kwang-myong, Mas Oyama.  Non-Koreans- Fumios Demura (which, btw, we will be hosting in September) & the Late Remy Presas.



			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> 3) A travel schedule that had him cross the world several times a year


See above.


			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> 4) Presiding over world championships for 28 years


Mas Oyama I believe did this as well.  



			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> 5) Having an exact technical standard that he personally set & taught, so that when a world championship was held some 60 nations would show up & the pattern competition was judged by who came closest to the exact standard he set


Again, there have been many who have done this which I have stated before



			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> I have to be honest as I do not know much about the non-Koreans, but still have never seen anyone who could match this specific criteria that I purposely set as I knew it would be hard to match!


Yes hard to match, but has been matched before



			
				KarateMomUSA said:
			
		

> So is there anyone 1 martial artist that can exceed Gen Choi in all 5 of these categories that he accomplished over his lifetime?


Again, Mas Oyama, comes to mind.  Professor Gino Kano as well.  I am not saying that Choi did not achieve a lot based on your criteria.  I am just saying he was not the only one.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Jan 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> *If you take a single individual and make their specific accomplishments the criteria, nobody other than them will measure up.* If I took Steven Seagal's specific accomplishment and made those the standard, only Seagal would measure up. Same for Chuck Norris. The general cannot match Chuck Norris' accomplishments, partly because the General was not a competitor and didn't make movies.


 
Regarding the bolded part, this is only partially true. IIRC, karatemomusa was talking about Gen. Choi being unparalleled in spreading TKD and teaching the number of people he personally taught. Travel, holding WC's, running seminars, etc. were the criteria karatemomusa listed (personally I would not call them arbitrary). 

If someone thinks there are better criteria to measure one's spreading of TKD or any other MA they could list what these would be and offer a reason why. 



> Rhee and Norris are icons. *Choi is not*. Do being icons make Rhee's and Norris' accomplishment better than Choi's? No. But being icons means that they can do things that the general could not. Just as his being a general allowed him to do things that they could not.
> 
> Daniel


 
I guess this will depend on what you mean by "icon." I know plenty of people who think Gen. Choi was an icon in Taekwon-Do. Heck, I've read an interview with GM Hwang, Kwang Sung who talks about meeting Gen. Choi while he was still in the Army. His comment was "He [Gen. Choi] was God to me." GM J.R. West also mentioned that while training in Viet Nam all his ROK instructors spoke about Gen. Choi "as if he were the second coming." You don't get much more "icon-y" than those types of comments IMNSHO :lol:

Gen. Choi being a General and later an Ambassador absolutely allowed him to do things others couldn't, go places they didn't, and spread Taekwon-Do in manners they were unable to. That in no way detracts from his accomplishments, however. It's what made them possible (kind of like Un Yong Kim's government and KCIA connections allowed him to push TKD into the Olympics). 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## miguksaram (Jan 10, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Regarding the bolded part, this is only partially true. IIRC, karatemomusa was talking about Gen. Choi being unparalleled in spreading TKD and teaching the number of people he personally taught. Travel, holding WC's, running seminars, etc. were the criteria karatemomusa listed (personally I would not call them arbitrary).


While this may be true for TKD, he is not the only martial artist to achieve this type of accomplishment.  Which she said that she did not know of any martial artist who has accomplished these items.  



> If someone thinks there are better criteria to measure one's spreading of TKD or any other MA they could list what these would be and offer a reason why.


It is a good criteria, though I would take out reisiding over world championships.  Not all MA's have a sport aspect to them.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 13, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you take a single individual and make their specific accomplishments the criteria, nobody other than them will measure up.  If I took Steven Seagal's specific accomplishment and made those the standard, only Seagal would measure up.  Same for Chuck Norris.  The general cannot match Chuck Norris' accomplishments, partly because the General was not a competitor and didn't make movies.


of course & Sir there is no doubt about that. Gen Choi can not compare to GM Norris, but he did promote him to 8th Dan black belt. I did make up or compile this specific set of criteria as I do not know anyone that can compare to those 5 accomplishments of Gen Choi. So far no one has given me a name of someone who did all 5 & did them to a greater extent than Gen Choi. It was done on purpose to highlight his contributions. It is a given that Gen Choi can not & does not match the accomplishments of Seagal or GM Norris.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Rhee and Norris are icons.  Choi is not.  Do being icons make Rhee's and Norris' accomplishment better than Choi's?  No.  But being icons means that they can do things that the general could not.  Just as his being a general allowed him to do things that they could not.
> Daniel


I guess it depends on your definition of an icon. If you mean that GMs Rhee & Norris were Icons because they made movies or a lot of money, then of course Gen Choi doesn't measure up as he did not make movies, but he did oversee the production of several training films that helped spread the standard that he set & taught world-wide.
I do think that as a martial art leader, pioneer, founder etc, Gen Choi was held in an iconic stature by countless students in over 100 countries around the world.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 13, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Again, Mas Oyama, comes to mind.  Professor Gino Kano as well.  I am not saying that Choi did not achieve a lot based on your criteria.  I am just saying he was not the only one.


I am not sure any of them had the travel schedule that Gen Choi did, especially Prof Kano as he lived pre-airplanes.
You give some good examples for each in each category, but I am not sure that they can match or beat him on all 5. But I am willing to be corrected.


----------



## KarateMomUSA (Jan 13, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> IIRC, karatemomusa was talking about Gen. Choi being unparalleled in spreading TKD and teaching the number of people he personally taught. Travel, holding WC's, running seminars, etc. were the criteria karatemomusa listed (personally I would not call them arbitrary).
> If someone thinks there are better criteria to measure one's spreading of TKD or any other MA they could list what these would be and offer a reason why.


Exactly! It really gets to the point of how standard he made his martial art. Which by the way is what the KKW & WTF are now trying to do with their Poomsae world championship. Gen Choi accomplished this decades ago, almost single handedly. That really is a big deal. He standardized his martial art & made his unique movements the same around the world, where the gold medal went to the one who performed the closest to the standard he set & taught.  
Now I only used the term arbitrary because I arbitrarily picked these 5 criteria. As stated I did so as I do not know of anyone that surpassed all 5 of these categories.


----------



## miguksaram (Jan 13, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I am not sure any of them had the travel schedule that Gen Choi did, especially Prof Kano as he lived pre-airplanes.
> You give some good examples for each in each category, but I am not sure that they can match or beat him on all 5. But I am willing to be corrected.


Again, as I said before, the examples that I gave you could match an beat him in all with the possibility of World games simply because not all martial arts have or had a sport aspect to them.  So to say he was the unmatched simply because he resieded of more sport activities is a stretch.  When there are other martial artists both Korean and Non-Korean who have matched and beaten him in 4 other catagories.


----------



## miguksaram (Jan 13, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Exactly! It really gets to the point of how standard he made his martial art. Which by the way is what the KKW & WTF are now trying to do with their Poomsae world championship. Gen Choi accomplished this decades ago, almost single handedly. That really is a big deal. He standardized his martial art & made his unique movements the same around the world, where the gold medal went to the one who performed the closest to the standard he set & taught.
> Now I only used the term arbitrary because I arbitrarily picked these 5 criteria. As stated I did so as I do not know of anyone that surpassed all 5 of these categories.


 
I could grant you that ITF competition poomsae may have standardized before KKW, but KKW standardized their martial art from the beginning that was what the unification process was all about.  In the last few years they have been tightening the screws for competition poomsae because their focus was on sparring, but overall the standard has been there.  Now individual KKW schools have done their own interpretation of poomsae just like ITF schools have done.  I'm sure both systems have been doing their best to rope those people in and teach them correctly.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 13, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> of course & Sir there is no doubt about that. Gen Choi can not compare to GM Norris, but he did promote him to 8th Dan black belt. I did make up or compile this specific set of criteria as I do not know anyone that can compare to those 5 accomplishments of Gen Choi. So far no one has given me a name of someone who did all 5 & did them to a greater extent than Gen Choi. It was done on purpose to highlight his contributions. It is a given that Gen Choi can not & does not match the accomplishments of Seagal or GM Norris.


Just to clarify, in no way am I implying that any one that I named has greater accomplishments than the General. Simply accomplishments in different areas. Steven Seagal accomplished more as a martial arts movie maker than General Choi did because he was a martial arts movie maker. He teaches and is recognized as being highly skilled, but he was not involved in the formation of a martial art the way that the General was. 

Chuck Norris' accomplishments are, likewise, different from those of the General based on the fact that he had different goals.



KarateMomUSA said:


> I guess it depends on your definition of an icon. If you mean that GMs Rhee & Norris were Icons because they made movies or a lot of money, then of course Gen Choi doesn't measure up as he did not make movies, but he did oversee the production of several training films that helped spread the standard that he set & taught world-wide.
> I do think that as a martial art leader, pioneer, founder etc, Gen Choi was held in an iconic stature by countless students in over 100 countries around the world.


General Choi is an icon within Taekwondo and to a lesser extent, in the martial arts world. Jhoon Rhee is an icon both inside and outside of the martial arts. Jhoon Rhee, at one point, was a household name in certain parts of the country and did a great deal to bring people with no martial arts background into taekwondo. 

Norris, Seagal, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, and the fictional 'Mister Miyagi' are also icons in that sense. They are known outside of martial arts circles. Choi and the pioneers, in my opinion, worked from the inside out; the worked to establish and to spread their art globally. When Pat Morita portrayed Mister Miyagi, people from outside of the martial arts suddenly wanted to get inside. 

Without those who established the art, there would be no art for those outside to want to get into. Certainly, taekwondo spread without the help of flashy film stars. But the flashy martial arts film stars are iconic in a way that founders and pioneers are not, mainly by virtue of being flashy film stars. Jhoon Rhee is a different case; he trained a lot of politicians and prominent people and advertised on television, quite extensively in my area. If I say Jhoon Rhee to someone and they aren't sure, all I have to do is say, 'nobody bothers me' and they instantly know who he is.

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 13, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Again, as I said before, the examples that I gave you could match an beat him in all with the possibility of World games simply because not all martial arts have or had a sport aspect to them.  So to say he was the unmatched simply because he resieded of more sport activities is a stretch.  When there are other martial artists both Korean and Non-Korean who have matched and beaten him in 4 other catagories.


Sorry but I am pretty sure that few racked up the frequent flier miles that Gen Choi did. He traveled abroad from 1959 to 2002 for TKD. He took his martial art to countries that were not open to many outsiders. Give me one example of someone who came close to his travels. Now I may not know of someone, but you must understand that Gen Choi crossed the world several times a year for his TKD. I really am not sure that anyone else did this, but am not as informed with other martial arts. So please give those names. Then you have to go down the list & see how that person compares in the other categories.
Please keep in mind that it was also his direct teaching, with him on the floor instructing AND then combining that with the fact that he not only presided over world championships, but those games took place on a regular basis from 1974 till 2001, in many different countries & regions of the world AND in those many championships some 60 nations would show up & competitors would compete in 5 categories under parameters he set AND the patterns were of his design AND the winners were those who came close to the world wide standard he set!
Then of course throw in the other criteria I listed & see how they compare. 

Maybe the best way to do it is to provide a name, 1 name at time & then list how they match up in each category. 

I restate the criteria:
So to restate the criteria that I am asking people to weigh in on specifically is:
1) Wrote the amount of books that Gen Choi did, along with in-depth    
or comprehensive nature of some, ie 15 volume set of Encyclopedias, the 1st ever books on TKD
2) Taught all around the world directly to students
3) A travel schedule that had him cross the world several times a year
4) Presiding over world championships for 28 years
5) Having an exact technical standard that he personally set &  taught, so that when a world championship was held some 60 nations would  show up & the pattern competition was judged by who came closest to  the exact standard he set


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 13, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I could grant you that ITF competition poomsae may have standardized before KKW, but KKW standardized their martial art from the beginning that was what the unification process was all about.  In the last few years they have been tightening the screws for competition poomsae because their focus was on sparring, but overall the standard has been there.  Now individual KKW schools have done their own interpretation of poomsae just like ITF schools have done.  I'm sure both systems have been doing their best to rope those people in and teach them correctly.


I respectfully disagree with your assessment & here is why: Kukki TKD unified around new sports rules that they created. They also granted certification without a set standard, including their form set. There were many who did & stil;, do the Palgwes & obtained KKW certs, as those who did the karate katas, Gen Choi's Chon Ji form set & the Taegueks to their own individual or school standard. They also eventually adopted a new dobok to get away from the karate gi. Now while the KKW may have set a standard, it was never enforced from a world wide standardization standpoint, if that makes sense. 
Today, with the recent addition of the WTF world poomsae championships, this is now being emphasized from a sports competition standpoint. I am not sure how it impacts or if it does from a certification standpoint.
The ITF has for the longest time, had both the sports element & certification process to force compliance around the world. They also had the benefit of having a sole voice decide the standard, as Gen Choi was the principle founder of his original TKD. Of course there was always exceptions to some people getting certs without being up to snuff or not following through on their pledge to conform etc. But even our local championships reinforced the exact world-wide standard & the official ITF instructors courses were held all around the world, not just at their headquarters in Vienna Austria, picked by the way for its neutral political posture which allowed access to the various member NGBs from around the world, who all adopted various political govt models for their respective nations.


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## puunui (Jan 13, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Any other recommended readings that are more authoritative than speculative?




There are other books on Taekwondo history out there, but the best ones all seem to be written in the Korean language. For example, a couple of years after the Modern History book was published, the same authors wrote a different book called "The History of Our Taekwondo". There is some overlap, but the books are different. There are other authors out there who have written history books on Taekwondo. They sit on a shelf in my Korean Martial Arts book room, untranslated, like unmined gold. The books have all kinds of different topics, different kwans like the Kuk Mu Kwan, Chung Yong Kwan, etc., even discussion on Soo Bak, Taekyon, Hwa Rang. It looks stuff I already know, but it is good to hear it from a different perspective. I should take the time to translate it.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> There are other books on Taekwondo history out there, but the best ones all seem to be written in the Korean language. For example, a couple of years after the Modern History book was published, the same authors wrote a different book called "The History of Our Taekwondo". There is some overlap, but the books are different. There are other authors out there who have written history books on Taekwondo. They sit on a shelf in my Korean Martial Arts book room, untranslated, like unmined gold. The books have all kinds of different topics, different kwans like the Kuk Mu Kwan, Chung Yong Kwan, etc., even discussion on Soo Bak, Taekyon, Hwa Rang. It looks stuff I already know, but it is good to hear it from a different perspective. I should take the time to translate it.


Sir did you ever take the time to translate or get a translation of Gen Choi's 1959 book?
If so, what did it say?
Was it the same stuff?


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## puunui (Jan 13, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Sir did you ever take the time to translate or get a translation of Gen Choi's 1959 book? If so, what did it say? Was it the same stuff?



Frankly, I'm not interested in what General Choi has to say, in english or korean.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> Frankly, I'm not interested in what General Choi has to say, in english or korean.


Sorry you feel like that. I think that it may provide some insight to see what he wrote 6 years before what he wrote in 1965. 
Don't you?


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## puunui (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Sorry you feel like that. I think that it may provide some insight to see what he wrote 6 years before what he wrote in 1965. Don't you?



No I don't.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

Quote:
                                                                      Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Sorry you feel like that. I think  that it may provide some insight to see what he wrote 6 years before  what he wrote in 1965. Don't you?_



puunui said:


> No I don't.


Too bad for us


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## puunui (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Too bad for us




You can always translate it yourself. You want to be a historian, then you might have to roll up your sleeves and get in there yourself. To me, reading General Choi's autobiography and Killing Art makes you a reader, not a historian. Go do some original work. Seek out some pioneers and then put out information that is not already out there. Obtain documents or photos that are not already on the internet. In other words, don't just stand there, do something, anything, on your own initiative, instead of relying on others give you a fish everyday.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> You can always translate it yourself. You want to be a historian, then you might have to roll up your sleeves and get in there yourself. To me, reading General Choi's autobiography and Killing Art makes you a reader, not a historian. Go do some original work. Seek out some pioneers and then put out information that is not already out there. Obtain documents or photos that are not already on the internet. In other words, don't just stand there, do something, anything, on your own initiative, instead of relying on others give you a fish everyday.


Gee I am somewhat saddened by what seems to be such a harsh response. I apologize in advance if I am mis-interpreting it. I do not think I have ever written anything like this about you. I find it to be somewhat unbecoming of a martial artist. I admire & have been made better by it & I thank you again for what you have shared.


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## puunui (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Gee I am somewhat saddened by what seems to be such a harsh response. I apologize in advance if I am mis-interpreting it. I do not think I have ever written anything like this about you. I find it to be somewhat unbecoming of a martial artist. I admire & have been made better by it & I thank you again for what you have shared.




So you are offended because I encourage you to do your own work and investigation?


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_Gee I am somewhat saddened by what  seems to be such a harsh response. I apologize in advance if I am  mis-interpreting it. I do not think I have ever written anything like  this about you. I find it to be somewhat unbecoming of a martial artist.  I admire & have been made better by it & I thank you again for  what you have shared._



puunui said:


> So you are offended because I encourage you to do your own work and investigation?


No sir, not offended at all. In fact that was not what I said. I simply said that I was "somewhat saddened" as it didn't fell like something that a martial artist would portray.
(I have noticed how some correct mistakes people make by what was actually written, so I thought I would set the record straight)


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## puunui (Jan 15, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No sir, not offended at all. In fact that was not what I said. I simply said that I was "somewhat saddened" as it didn't fell like something that a martial artist would portray.




Actually it's exactly what a martial artist should portray, which is to encourage others to put in the time themselves. Sitting there watching others training doesn't mean you are training too. If that were true, then every parent would be the same rank as their kids.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> Actually it's exactly what a martial artist should portray, which is to encourage others to put in the time themselves. Sitting there watching others training doesn't mean you are training too. If that were true, then every parent would be the same rank as their kids.


Sorry sir I think that is a poor analogy. Training is something that one must do to benefit. Researching history is done on many levels & has many facets to it. Among them is the all important "literature review", which is fairly common in most scholarly works that are peer reviewed. In fact, it often 1 of the first parts of a research paper.
While there are many other steps that all have to be done, many of them requiring field or "leg work", some things unfortunately can not be gained in the field as many important people have passed on.
Now sadly this is the case in some instances, but you, whose work I highly admire & have a deep respect for, have had the great fortune to have interacted with many vitally important & influential people. That info is so very important & may contain many pieces of this confusing puzzle. Since oral testimony is of a nature that can benefit from cross referencing, having knowledge of what people have said is essential in order to insure research is as through as possible.
Interviews are made more effective by having a better base of knowledge. Even a polygraph examiner can only hope to be effective if she has a solid base to start from.
I am sure that you understand this, as I am sure that you are correct that training in TKD can only be done on the floor & not by sitting on the parent's chair, though even a parent may see or hear something that will be helpful & add to their knowledge just by observing. I often encourage students to come to class, even if injured, as they can still learn, regardless of setting. In any event I repeat that I have learned from you via this forum & I am thankful for that.


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## puunui (Jan 16, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Sorry sir I think that is a poor analogy. Training is something that one must do to benefit. Researching history is done on many levels & has many facets to it. Among them is the all important "literature review", which is fairly common in most scholarly works that are peer reviewed. In fact, it often 1 of the first parts of a research paper.



How would you know if it was a poor analogy, given the fact that you have not done the work? You haven't even done the "literature review", given the fact that you are asking me for a translation of General Choi's 1959 book, instead of doing it yourself and sharing it on here. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> While there are many other steps that all have to be done, many of them requiring field or "leg work", some things unfortunately can not be gained in the field as many important people have passed on.



Frankly, that is your problem, not mine. And there are plenty of pioneers who are still alive. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Now sadly this is the case in some instances, but you, whose work I highly admire & have a deep respect for, have had the great fortune to have interacted with many vitally important & influential people. That info is so very important & may contain many pieces of this confusing puzzle. Since oral testimony is of a nature that can benefit from cross referencing, having knowledge of what people have said is essential in order to insure research is as through as possible.



I have cross referenced the testimony. They all say the same thing, that General Choi was a liar. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Interviews are made more effective by having a better base of knowledge.



Yes, I believe one of the reasons why so many of the pioneers open up to me is because I understand Korean culture and approach them respectfully and in the proper fashion, I pronounce names correctly, and we can have a positive discussion because they don't have to explain the background to get to the meat of it. People who are witnesses to some of the discussions I have had are shocked to hear who much info can come out from a two or three minute exchange in passing. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> I am sure that you understand this, as I am sure that you are correct that training in TKD can only be done on the floor & not by sitting on the parent's chair, though even a parent may see or hear something that will be helpful & add to their knowledge just by observing. I often encourage students to come to class, even if injured, as they can still learn, regardless of setting. In any event I repeat that I have learned from you via this forum & I am thankful for that.



Yes, I do understand this, that of course everyone can learn by watching (including parents) but if you want to really understand, then you need to go out there and do your own research. Can you see the difference between reading someone else's work and making comments about it, and doing your own work and adding that to the discussion? 

But frankly, the fact that you feel you can ask me questions but not answer when I ask you the same questions tells me all that I need to know about you.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> Frankly, that is your problem, not mine. And there are plenty of pioneers who are still alive.


Yes there are many pioneers alive & on both sides of the aisle. But should we only listen to 1 side?



puunui said:


> cross referenced the testimony. They all say the same thing, that General Choi was a liar.


Lets see what he lied about:
His training in Japan, whether or not he taught there, the length or time of his training, that he was not a martial artist, that he was junior, that his teaching in the ROK Army in the 1940s does not equate to the opening of the 5 original kwans.

Now what does any of this have to do with what he was able to accomplish with the ITF, especially when he left Korea & was eventually forced to be a 1 man team, often doing a 1 man show. We also should consider he did all this minus govt support that south Korea was giving the KTA, KKW & WTF, plus they had a concerted effort to dismantle his, what they called a private organization. Not too bad for a private organization, run by an ego driven autocratic dictator, don't you think?

None of the negative things that people said or say about him, or write on a forum, can possible take away from his many accomplishments & what he contributed for so many around the world.


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## puunui (Jan 16, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Now what does any of this have to do with what he was able to accomplish with the ITF, especially when he left Korea & was eventually forced to be a 1 man team, often doing a 1 man show. We also should consider he did all this minus govt support that south Korea was giving the KTA, KKW & WTF, plus they had a concerted effort to dismantle his, what they called a private organization. Not too bad for a private organization, run by an ego driven autocratic dictator, don't you think? None of the negative things that people said or say about him, or write on a forum, can possible take away from his many accomplishments & what he contributed for so many around the world.




What he accomplished was to create a wedge between his followers and the rest of Taekwondo. Imagine if there had not been a General Choi. Unification would have occurred much sooner and many of the conflicts that we see today wouldn't exist.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> What he accomplished was to create a wedge between his followers and the rest of Taekwondo. Imagine if there had not been a General Choi. Unification would have occurred much sooner and many of the conflicts that we see today wouldn't exist.


Yes maybe they would have united & maybe they wouldn't. But we know for sure that IF they did unite it would have been under the name of Tae Soo Do.
Maybe Dr Kim Un Yong would not have had to take over TKD's leadership in south Korea. Maybe the internationalizaion of it may never have taken off or be so fast without Gen Choi.
But regardless of all that, you still don't want to acknowledge all that he did with his follwers, much of which was simply never matched by the other Pioneers to the scale & scope that he did it. Even if Gen Choi was the worst man that ever lived & was the biggest obstacle & pain in the neck with the Kukki Tae Soo Do guys, what he did, his contributions & accomplishments stand & can not & will not be ignored by history, just because he had enemies.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes maybe they would have united & maybe they wouldn't. But we know for sure that IF they did unite it would have been under the name of Tae Soo Do.



that wouldn't bother me. I don't have any sort of vested interest in or emotional attachment to the name Taekwondo. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Maybe Dr Kim Un Yong would not have had to take over TKD's leadership in south Korea.



That would have happened whether or not General Choi was there. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Maybe the internationalizaion of it may never have taken off or be so fast without Gen Choi.



Maybe in certain countries like Malaysia, which isn't a WTF powerhouse, and never was. Truth be known, General Choi jumped the gun on the "internationalization" and all that did was create wedges to unification because he put his forms out there that practitioners had to overcome and unlearn. A better approach would be to first get Korea unified, then expand internationally. And in fact, that is exactly what the pioneers did. They sent out thousands of instructors throughout the world from the 70's, unprecedented before or since. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> But regardless of all that, you still don't want to acknowledge all that he did with his follwers, much of which was simply never matched by the other Pioneers to the scale & scope that he did it.



I do acknowledge what he did for his "followers", which was to create a wedge between them and the rest of the Taekwondo world. You think that is a good thing. You are entitled to your opinion, just like I am entitled to mine. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> Even if Gen Choi was the worst man that ever lived & was the biggest obstacle & pain in the neck with the Kukki Tae Soo Do guys, what he did, his contributions & accomplishments stand & can not & will not be ignored by history, just because he had enemies.



Yeah, and it will be you, "KarateMomUSA" who does neither Karate nor lives in the USA (are you even a mom?) that makes sure General Choi is not ignored. If you wish to sing the praises of Benedict Arnold, so that he takes his rightful place in history, then go for it. But please know that that is exactly how the majority of Korean born practitioners see him, as Benedict Arnold.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA*
> 
> 
> _Maybe Dr Kim Un Yong would not have had to take over TKD's leadership in south Korea.
> ...


I am not so sure & of course we will never know as the chain of events that made history happened, so we can't not for sure what would have happened.
But Dr Kim was asked to oversee TKD because there was internal problems & I thought those internal problems with unification was all because of Gen Choi! As a govt official he had responsibilities.
So I know Gen Choi was the "permanent trouble maker", but have come to read that the Pioneers were working for unification & Gen Choi was the interference. So who else fought unification? Was their only 1 trouble maker?


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe in certain countries like Malaysia, which isn't a WTF powerhouse, and never was. Truth be known, General Choi jumped the gun on the "internationalization" and all that did was create wedges to unification because he put his forms out there that practitioners had to overcome and unlearn. A better approach would be to first get Korea unified, then expand internationally. And in fact, that is exactly what the pioneers did. They sent out thousands of instructors throughout the world from the 70's, unprecedented before or since.


Yes there were & are many nations that are ITF powerhouses. Malaysia was the 2nd home of TKD, then Vietnam. 
Now I am not so sure he did jump the gun on "internationalization" as he was so very successful in spreading his TKD world-wide with a true worldwide standard that the KKW is now trying to do as well.
Maybe they should have just had him set it up for him, as he succeeded long before they did & did it to a level that was truly unprecedented to date!


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_But regardless of all that, you  still don't want to acknowledge all that he did with his followers, much  of which was simply never matched by the other Pioneers to the scale  & scope that he did it.
_



puunui said:


> I do acknowledge what he did for his "followers", which was to create a wedge between them and the rest of the Taekwondo world. You think that is a good thing. You are entitled to your opinion, just like I am entitled to mine.
> 
> ........If you wish to sing the praises of Benedict Arnold, so that he takes his rightful place in history, then go for it. But please know that that is exactly how the majority of Korean born practitioners see him, as Benedict Arnold.


Listen sir I am sure that if you were ever to an ITF world championship held towards the end of Gen Choi's life, you would see 1st hand & up close the amazing feat that he accomplished with the scope of his worldwide standard. I do hope the KKW & WTF will have the same success with their Poomsae tournaments.
As far as the Benedict Arnold slur, I wonder what source you use for your claim above: "is exactly how the majority of Korean born practitioners see him"?
Is it from your circle, that is becoming more apparent that is fairly close minded


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> "create wedges to unification"


There can certainly be many reasons why a wedge forms. In any event, even if it was 100% any one particular person's fault, which common sense tells most of us it rarely ever is, why does it seem that you appear to be so adamant at slurring a man & tarnishing his significant record of accomplishments after the wedge, that he was able to achieve with his style of TKD?
Then on the other hand you say, we want unification with all TKDin. That certainly seems to me to be a strange way to welcome non Kukki TKDin.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Listen sir I am sure that if you were ever to an ITF world championship held towards the end of Gen Choi's life, you would see 1st hand & up close the amazing feat that he accomplished with the scope of his worldwide standard. I do hope the KKW & WTF will have the same success with their Poomsae tournaments.



It is no accomplishment to have standardization at a poomsae tournament. The WTF has done that in short order in only a couple of events. So what if General Choi did the same thing with the ITF tournaments. Of course everyone who attends poomsae tournaments want to adhere to the judging standards so they can win. It wasn't because of General Choi, it was because the competitors wanted to win. It is the same in any form tournament. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> As far as the Benedict Arnold slur, I wonder what source you use for your claim above: "is exactly how the majority of Korean born practitioners see him"? Is it from your circle, that is becoming more apparent that is fairly close minded



I don't see too many Korean borns who are still loyal to General Choi. They pretty much all left except for a few when he started going to North Korea. You even said the same thing, remember? You singing the praises of General Choi at this point is the same as coming to the United States and attempting to sing the praises of Benedict Arnold, with the exception that Benedict Arnold I don't think took credit for the naming of the US, if anyone really cares who named our country.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I am not so sure & of course we will never know as the chain of events that made history happened, so we can't not for sure what would have happened. But Dr Kim was asked to oversee TKD because there was internal problems & I thought those internal problems with unification was all because of Gen Choi! As a govt official he had responsibilities. So I know Gen Choi was the "permanent trouble maker", but have come to read that the Pioneers were working for unification & Gen Choi was the interference. So who else fought unification? Was their only 1 trouble maker?




I scored in the 99th percentile on my SAT, and that was on two hours of sleep, hungover, no breakfast, no prep course and 5-10 minutes late to the test. How did you do? Go read that section in the Modern History book again, perhaps a couple of times. It is easier than me trying to explain it and then you coming back with more commentary (without any additional facts to support your position, again). It says exactly why Dr. Kim entered into the Taekwondo world. Of course, if you wish to credit General Choi for the appearance of Dr. Un Yong KIM in Taekwondo, then I suppose you can do that. That wouldn't be anymore outrageous than some of the other claims you have made while singing the praises of General Choi.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> It is no accomplishment to have standardization at a poomsae tournament. The WTF has done that in short order in only a couple of events. So what if General Choi did the same thing with the ITF tournaments. Of course everyone who attends poomsae tournaments want to adhere to the judging standards so they can win. It wasn't because of General Choi, it was because the competitors wanted to win. It is the same in any form tournament.
> 
> I don't see too many Korean borns who are still loyal to General Choi. They pretty much all left except for a few when he started going to North Korea. You even said the same thing, remember? You singing the praises of General Choi at this point is the same as coming to the United States and attempting to sing the praises of Benedict Arnold, with the exception that Benedict Arnold I don't think took credit for the naming of the US, if anyone really cares who named our country.


No the ITFers did want to win & they could ONLY WIN if they were the closest performer to the technical standard set by Gen Choi, that he taught personally all around the world. 

It is factual that Benedict Arnold worked with the enemy. History tells us that.
History is not yet written & Gen Choi's intelligence folder is still top secret. 
What he did was also not as cut & dry as what Arnold did. He was after all a Canadian citizen that was living in exile, because of the brutality of the military dictatorships that millions around the world know existed. Gen Choi was also engaged in spreading his art of Taekwon-Do around the world, without regard to race, religion, national boundaries & political ideology. To the same places that the WTF followed him to. They are even trying to get into north Korea. Gen Choi, using TKD as a political tool, like others have used sports & cultural exchanges to bridge gaps & foster understanding between those with difficulties coming together. History shows us how these type of exchanges have helped to an extent. The US govt encourages these types of exchanges as does so many other around the world.
So in a tragic separation like Korea, where families have had no contact for decades, efforts to break through, soften tensions, create good will & shared activities, do play a part & will be judged favorable by history. Geez Gen Choi even was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. 
You are also mistaken when you say that there are not many Korean born who are loyal to Gen Choi. There are countless in north Korea & others around the world. When history gets recorded correctly, his fan group will grow. It is inevitable, even if that is problematic for some & troublesome for certain agendas.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> There can certainly be many reasons why a wedge forms. In any event, even if it was 100% any one particular person's fault, which common sense tells most of us it rarely ever is, why does it seem that you appear to be so adamant at slurring a man & tarnishing his significant record of accomplishments after the wedge, that he was able to achieve with his style of TKD? Then on the other hand you say, we want unification with all TKDin. That certainly seems to me to be a strange way to welcome non Kukki TKDin.




I am not adamant to slur General Choi; what I am adamant about is that we tell the truth. Again, you add no additional facts to the discussion and your sole "contribution" has been to spin and slant evidence and facts that I have provided in an effort to assure General Choi his wrongful place in history. The fact of the matter is that General Choi hurt Taekwondo by creating his "ITF vs. WTF" duality. The ITF members who you claim "benefited" from General Choi's immeasurable and incomparable contributions have in fact been hurt because they are now isolated and excluded from the rest of Taekwondo, by their choice or not. Just read his autobiography if you do not believe me, which is filled with story after story of how he fought this person, or went against the grain on this issue, or he stood up to this other person. Everywhere he went he added nothing except headache and turmoil for everyone unfortunate enough to have to interact with him. How can you get a cooperative group effort going when someone like that is always interjecting and forcing something that goes against the grain? 

If he had been smart, and not so uncooperative, he could have become the Oh Do Kwan Jang during the unification efforts, could have signed the Kwan Unity Declarations on behalf of the Oh Do Kwan, could have had perhaps two of the Chang Hon tul included within the Kukkiwon poomsae, and could have promoted people through the Oh Do Kwan and built a strong following that way. Instead, he chose to give the Kwan Jangs the finger and went his own way. And now we continue to suffer for it, including me, because I find myself in this distasteful discussion about a little man with the napoleon complex who did his best to screw up Taekwondo, when I could be doing something else.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> I am not adamant to slur General Choi; what I am adamant about is that we tell the truth. Again, you add no additional facts to the discussion and your sole "contribution" has been to spin and slant evidence and facts that I have provided in an effort to assure General Choi his wrongful place in history. The fact of the matter is that General Choi hurt Taekwondo by creating his "ITF vs. WTF" duality. The ITF members who you claim "benefited" from General Choi's immeasurable and incomparable contributions have in fact been hurt because they are now isolated and excluded from the rest of Taekwondo, by their choice or not. Just read his autobiography if you do not believe me, which is filled with story after story of how he fought this person, or went against the grain on this issue, or he stood up to this other person. Everywhere he went he added nothing except headache and turmoil for everyone unfortunate enough to have to interact with him. How can you get a cooperative group effort going when someone like that is always interjecting and forcing something that goes against the grain?


Now I can only explain things here in written form. I can not comprehend it for readers.
What I am saying is that even if Gen Choi did cause every single problem that the Kukki TKD men ever accounted & even if he was the dark devil, Gen Choi spread his Korean martial art that he called TKD long before anyone else did, around the world. This popularization of his Original TKD was beneficial to both Korea & his students. While the level he did it at was unprecedented, from the standpoint of an individual, it also was Korea centered. Because of this, history credit him.
Now feel free to go back to how much of a trouble maker he was in south Korea, prior to when he entered into exile in 1972. I am talking about what he did from then & 1974, holding his 1st world championship in Montreal & 2001, his last championship in 2001 Italy that he presided over, till even his deathbed less than a year later.

So forget about Kukki TKD, Korea owes him a debt of gratitude, as do the countless millions around the world that he taught TKD to & introduced them to Korea. This is what he will rightfully be remembered for.
Now he can also be remembered for being a trouble maker in the process & development of Kukki TKD, that is fine, as it is also historically factual.
Likewise he will also garner credit for naming TKD, spreading it outside of Korea before anyone else, writing the 1st books on TKD & the most comprehensive set of books on TKD, or the martial arts.

Not to acknowledge some of these accomplishments is not only partisan bickering, but not very conducive to unity. TKD is TKD I thought.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> The ITF members who you claim "benefited" from General Choi's immeasurable and incomparable contributions have in fact been hurt because they are now isolated and excluded from the rest of Taekwondo, by their choice or not.


Please sir the ITF members are not isolated. They are fragmented since his passing, with much of the blame going to him. There is a strong network & ITF fellowship all around the world. There are so many that still follow this Original TKD proudly, who do not feel that they need to be part of the KKW, WTF or Kukki TKD, which many of them look at as a sport, that they do not gravitate towards due to the lack of hands. Those that wish a shot at the Olympics always had it available to them & now if they go to the WTF via the WTA, that has even become easier for them. They now have access to CISM, the military Olympics & the WTF sparring. They have their Tuls there, in place as the standard, along with their pre-arranged free sparring or self defence routine, both ITF events, open even to the WTFers in CISM. They are working with Sports Accord as well on several levels. 
Many look at their TKD as the martial art, with even others around the world thinking that it is the traditional TKD. The WTF president has acknowledged the ITFers & the TKD Park chairman has publicly called Gen Choi the founder of TKD. I am sure that the TKD Park will honor him & his followers as well.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 18, 2011)

Just.
Stop.


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> He was after all a Canadian citizen that was living in exile, because of the brutality of the military dictatorships that millions around the world know existed.



He lived in self imposed exile because he saw the handwriting on the wall, that it was going to crash down all around him. He left Korea, not because of "the brutality of military dictatorships" but because the WTF was coming and he could no longer pretend that the ITF was the offiical international division or branch for Taekwondo, that in fact, his ITF was nothing more than his own private organization. So he left and took his private organization with him. If it weren't his own private organization, then he wouldn't have been allowed to take the ITF when he left Korea, on the eve of the founding of the WTF and the hosting of the first World Taekwondo Championships in May 1973.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> He lived in self imposed exile because he saw the handwriting on the wall, that it was going to crash down all around him. He left Korea, not because of "the brutality of military dictatorships" but because the WTF was coming and he could no longer pretend that the ITF was the offiical international division or branch for Taekwondo, that in fact, his ITF was nothing more than his own private organization. So he left and took his private organization with him. If it weren't his own private organization, then he wouldn't have been allowed to take the ITF when he left Korea, on the eve of the founding of the WTF and the hosting of the first World Taekwondo Championships in May 1973.


No actually Gen Choi fled from south Korea early in 1972. Now please remember that 1972 was the height of the brutality of the Gen Park military dictator regime. This is pretty well known & you can check with Dr Bruce Cummings, PhD, a professor that was at The University of Chicago & other experts on Korean history. The fact that Gen Choi left when he was embroiled in the TKD efforts, is symbolic on how the regime was looking to marginalize him, as he was becoming a more outspoken critic of the methods that they used to keep people in line. This was not limited to Gen Choi. Countless Koreans suffered as political dissenters, with some taking years to be released & others never getting released as they were never found or not alive when found. Please do not discount this ugly & trying time of growing pains for a great democratic rich country of Korea, that was not always that way.
The ITF was registered with 2 separate branches of the south Korean govt. Its membership voted to move the headquarters to Canada.

It also must be pointed out that Gen Choi's family was held hostage back in Korea when he fled. Gen Park offered him an ambassadorship of his picking or even their foreign minister spot, their top diplomatic position. They eventually let his wife out & 1 daughter. This deal was brokered with the help of Grandmaster Jhoon Rhee & his students in the Republica Dominicana. One of Grandmaster Rhee's students was an American university educated man, who then returned home from Texas & secured a job in the US Embassy there. He used his connections to get the Dominican president to secure the release of Mrs Choi & 1 of the daughters. Eventually the remaining 2 children were released.
People may not want to know about these things, or talk about them. But they happened & things like this impacted the development of TKD & those that were involved in it.


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## puunui (Jan 19, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> No actually Gen Choi fled from south Korea early in 1972.




You don't think they were planning the WTF and the 1st World Taekwondo Championships in early 1972? At that point, early 1972, Dr. Kim had been on the job for over a year and his plan was to expand internationally. That was one of his strengths, because he served time overseas as a diplomat, and spoke several languages including english. They were also starting to publish things in english for circulation and the KTA, under Dr. Kim, started up the International Master Instructor certification program. What do you think that meant? General Choi knew what was going down, and he left.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 21, 2011)

Once you start to consider the outside non-related political happenings you will see why Gen Choi exiled himself to Canada. There is no doubt that what you say is accurate. I never denied those aspects. I simply say that in order to more fully understand why these things happened, we must also know the context. Even the Modern History addresses this: "However, the May 16 revolution was hell for him. General Choi was hated by ROK President PARK Chung Hee and as a result was forced out of the military and sent to
Malaysia as Ambassador."
This hatred & resentment grew over time, as Gen Park increased his dictatorial power by repressing the Korean people. This is simply undeniable. To not realize this & to not consider the impact it had on the context of the times that TKD developed in, is like burying one's head in the sand. As Gen Choi's criticism of the military dictatorship became more vocal, he became more of a target of that brutal military regime. Gen Park suspended the constitution, canceled elections, cracked down of freedom of speech & of the press, right to assemble etc.
Why do you ignore this?
Why do you not address the fact that his family was held hostage by the dictatorial regime when he fled?
Do you think they held his family hostage because he was this much needed, irreplaceable TKD iconic leader?

Common sense: Of course since he was hated by the military dictator, his efforts to build his TKD movement was hampered. However the sights of the brutal dictator were not focused on him solely for TKD, was it? As we know from what you wrote & continue to write, he was the insignificant person who played no real role in TKD. So why was he hated by Gen Park?


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 21, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Common sense: Of course since he was hated by the military dictator, his efforts to build his TKD movement was hampered. However the sights of the brutal dictator were not focused on him solely for TKD, was it? As we know from what you wrote & continue to write, he was the insignificant person who played no real role in TKD. So why was he hated by Gen Park?


 
Maybe it had something to do with Gen. Choi being on the military tribunal that court martialed Park, Chung Hee and sentenced him to death? Maybe? I mean, that might put a damper on their relationship.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 21, 2011)

FWIW, Park was arrested and by a military investigation team in 1948 on charges of engaging in communist activities while in the army. This was something that stemmed back to his days in KCOT (Korean Constabulary Officer Training), beginning at the end of 1946. Park ended up joining the South Korean Communist Party while at KCOT and helped develop the communist network within that school. When he was promoted to captain and made cadet commander at KCOT, consolidating his network while overseeing 420 cadets. 

Park, along with the three other training officers of the Fifth Class, were arrested in 1984. The other three _were_ executed. Park's sentence was reduced to a life sentence of hard labor. 

Gen. Choi was on the court martial tribunal. I highly doubt that little detail was lost on Park.

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui (Jan 22, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Park, along with the three other training officers of the Fifth Class, were arrested in 1984. The other three _were_ executed. Park's sentence was reduced to a life sentence of hard labor. Gen. Choi was on the court martial tribunal. I highly doubt that little detail was lost on Park.




Yeah, and President PARK Chung Hee had out for General Choi so badly that he allowed him to become the KTA President, and later when he was forced out of that position by other people, he allowed General Choi to set up the ITF and then have the Korean government pay for his hand selected instructors to teach overseas. 

Here is what GM CHO Hee Il said about it:

*
When I left the Army, I made the decision that I wanted to leave Korea. I had no idea where I wanted to go and no means of getting there. At that time it was extremely difficult to gain permission to leave Korea. Exit involved long months, even years, of waiting for visas. 

I had one option open to me. I enrolled in the Instructor's Training Center for Taekwon-Do instructions.  This center was then headed by General Choi.... The students who graduated first and second from the course received the chance to go overseas and work for the government as a Taekwondo instructor. You can well imagine the fierce competition among students to achieve this freedom. 

I was lucky. Well, it wasn't all luck; I worked harder than I had ever worked before and I placed first. My journey with Taekwondo started from that moment. I was sent to India to train special combat forces in the Indian Desert. After a year in India, I had the choice of returning to Korea and the prospect of a somewhat limited future, or to reestablish myself elsewhere in the world. 

*

If President Park have it out so badly for General Choi, why would he allow him to run this type of program sponsored by the Korean government? Why not have someone else do it? 

PS: As for President Park holding General Choi's family hostage in Korea after General Choi left, GM Cho explains why: "At that time it was extremely difficult to gain permission to leave  Korea. Exit involved long months, even years, of waiting for visas."


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 23, 2011)

Quote:
 	 	 		 			 				 					Originally Posted by *chrispillertkd* 

 
_Park, along with the three other training officers of the Fifth Class, were arrested in 1948. The other three were  executed. Park's sentence was reduced to a life sentence of hard labor.  Gen. Choi was on the court martial tribunal. I highly doubt that little  detail was lost on Park._



puunui said:


> Yeah, and President PARK Chung Hee had out for General Choi so badly that he allowed him to become the KTA President, and later when he was forced out of that position by other people, he allowed General Choi to set up the ITF and then have the Korean government pay for his hand selected instructors to teach overseas.
> Here is what GM CHO Hee Il said about it:
> *
> When I left the Army, I made the decision that I wanted to leave Korea. I had no idea where I wanted to go and no means of getting there. At that time it was extremely difficult to gain permission to leave Korea. Exit involved long months, even years, of waiting for visas.
> ...


I am sorry but this post demonstrates a somewhat lack of knowledge of what was actually happening in south Korea during dictatorial military regime of Gen Park. It really is necessary to understand more fully how the nasty Korean politics affected TKD's history & the context of the time period its development took place in.
1st some of the minor details, GM Cho Hee Il, I believe graduated from the ITF instructors course in Nov of 1968, not a KTA course. So I thought the ITF was a private organization?
Now you also may be dealing with 2 separate issues, the top 2 may have went on the govt payroll, but it was certainly not limited to just the top 2 in leaving Korea.
Visas as we know are issued by the country that one wishes to visit. Gen Choi had a network in place where people residing in a country would sponsor an instructor to come over. He provided the instructors through his courses. He also provided instructors for the govt to send as well. This appears to be 2 different things.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 23, 2011)

puunui said:


> Yeah, and President PARK Chung Hee had out for General Choi so badly that he allowed him to become the KTA President, and later when he was forced out of that position by other people, he allowed General Choi to set up the ITF and then have the Korean government pay for his hand selected instructors to teach overseas.
> 
> If President Park have it out so badly for General Choi, why would he allow him to run this type of program sponsored by the Korean government? Why not have someone else do it?
> 
> PS: As for President Park holding General Choi's family hostage in Korea after General Choi left, GM Cho explains why: "At that time it was extremely difficult to gain permission to leave  Korea. Exit involved long months, even years, of waiting for visas."


OK again 1968 was not 1972. 1972 was the height of the brutality of the Park regime. It was when he went over the top with what he was doing to the Korean people. It did not happen all at once. 

We really need to know the history of Korea & its political development:
 Some experts will tell you that the military coup was welcome in some ways. The ROK was run by a corrupt govt that had over stayed its welcome. Rhee was in office for 12 years. When he rigged the elections massive student demos forced him to eventually step aside. The civilian govt that took over did not last long as Gen Park led the coup about a year later, promoting himself to a 3 star Lt General. (When he finally stepped down from the military, he 1st made himself a 4 star General) One month after the coup they set up the KCIA to help insure the regime held onto power by eliminating or neutralizing any opponents or dissidents. Leaders not loyal to the dictator were purged. Some military generals like Gen Choi were sent abroad as ambassadors. Business men were persecuted & 24 of the leading ones were arrested. Researchers at the US Library of Congress said &#8220;the junta under Park Chung Hee quickly consolidated its power, removed those it considered corrupt and unqualified from government and army positions, and laid plans for the future&#8221;. &#8220;A small number of young officers commanding 3,600 men had succeeded in toppling a government with authority over an army of 600,000&#8221;. &#8220;The military government promulgated on March 16, 1962, the sweeping Political Activities Purification Law, banning political activities by civilian politicians who were closely associated with the First and Second Republics under President Syngman Rhee and Premier Chang Myn.&#8221; Of course we know that Gen Choi at the time was in command of about 100,000 troops. So by the fall of 1962, he was sent to Malaysia as Ambassador.
  In 1963 Park changed the constitution & became chair of the powerful Supreme Council for national Reconstruction. He agreed to the limit of 2 presidential terms of office for the presidency.
  In 1965 Park signed a pact with Japan that many in south Korea did not like, as anti-Japanese sentiment was still high. Many claimed that he sold them out, as he settled for way less that Rhee demanded. He had to declare martial law to quell the protests. Park also started to send soldiers to Vietnam to fight. The ROK sent over 300,000 troops by the wars end, 2nd only th the USA, which paid the ROK govt the money for the soldiers. The money was not paid directly to the ROK soldiers, so the dictatorship used some of those monies to build their economy. 
  In 1971 he was due to leave office, but in 1969 he again changed the constitution so he could stay in office for a 3rd term. On Dec 6 , 1971 upon the start of his 3rd term he declared a national emergency. By October of 1972 he suspended the constitution & did away with the parliament. By December, 2 months later he made another new constitution, increasing the term to 6 years, with no limit & was now elected with no opposition & again in 1978. In 1972 he also proclaimed martial law. The reforms he put in place in 1972 were a swing back to authoritarianism. &#8220;Many political leaders were arbitrarily arrested, and the security apparatus entered its most draconian period, putting down dissent and becoming infamous for its use of torture&#8221;. The US Ambassador (Habib) to Seoul advises his govt to distance them from Park by disassociation & Washington goes along, just 3 days later. &#8220;(Kim Dae Jung escaped arrest only because he was out of the country.)&#8221; Of course we know that eventually the long international hand of the KCIA tracked him down & was ready to kill him, until the USA stepped in. Mr Kim would eventually become a civilian elected president of the ROK.
  Many tolerated his rule in the 1960s, as he was building a successful economy. However by the 1970s, the climate was changing in south Korea, so he clamped down hard. &#8220;In December 1971, Park again tightened his control over the country. He proclaimed a national emergency and forced through the National Assembly a bill granting him complete power to control, regulate, and mobilize the people, the economy, the press, and everything else in the public domain. In October 1972, he proclaimed martial law, dissolved the National Assembly, closed all universities and colleges, imposed strict press censorship, and suspended political activities&#8221;. (US Library of Congress)
  The night he was killed, his KCIA director told him that a crackdown that park wanted would result in 3,000 deaths. Park said I don&#8217;t care if 30,000 die, do it. Of course we know what happened, the KCIA director killed him & others at the meeting. Park gets credit for being the father of Korea's economic miracle, but at a great cost. Even the Encyclopedia Britannica said the cost was "civil liberties & political freedom". Try reading accounts like the one by a reporter like Jae Hoon Shim that even worked for foreign media, how he & others were treated & the price they paid for living under Park's harsh rule. 

So what we have to do is follow the time line. Gen Choi, supporting the coup (1961), along with other Generals, were waiting for the civilian leadership to take over. Gen Park, consolidates his power & removes all obstacles. Gen Choi forced out of the military & sent to Malaysia (1962), he returns in late 1964, gets elected as KTA 3rd president in Jan 1965, changes name to TKD in Aug 65, leaves to govt sponsored Kukki TKD goodwill tour that fall, social upheaval quelled by martial law in 1965, Mar 66 creates the ITF, Gen Park changes the constitution in 1969 & again in 1971, & in 1972 begins the height of his brutality, Gen Choi, future President Kim Dae Jung exile themselves to safety abroad along with countless others, while countless others who do not flee are persecuted, arrested, tortured & worse.

As Gen Park broke more & more promises, more people complained, as he became more brutal, complaints turned to protests & opposition, which in turn led to more brutality, until he was shot & killed by his own KCIA Director in 1979. But if you think he was bad, his military dictator successor was worse & had no good will built up like Park did with his economic miracle. Gen Chun continued this brutality & more till the late 1980s.


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## puunui (Jan 24, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I am sorry but this post demonstrates a somewhat lack of knowledge of what was actually happening in south Korea during dictatorial military regime of Gen Park. It really is necessary to understand more fully how the nasty Korean politics affected TKD's history & the context of the time period its development took place in.




I think you missed the point. Again. Your comment was: 

 					Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
 				Common sense: Of course since he was hated by the military dictator, his efforts to build his TKD movement was hampered.

My response was that assuming what you said was true, that General Choi was hated by President PARK Chung Hee because General Choi sat on his court martial and sentenced him to death, and therefore President Park used "nasty korean politics" to screw General Choi, then why did he allow General Choi to participate in Taekwondo at all? If President Park hated General Choi so much as you and chrispillertkd say (citing to General Choi's autobiography) then why didn't he simply kick him out of the ROK Army and deny him access to any governmental activity. Why send him off to Malaysia as an ambassador? After General Choi was forced back from Malaysia due to allegations of financial wrong doing, why didn't President Park charge General Choi with embezzlement of government funds and send him to jail? After all, he was a "military dictator", how hard would it have been for President Park to use "nasty Korean politics" to trump up some criminal charges and convict him? Why allow him to become KTA President? Why allow the ROK military to use his Chang Hon tul? Why allow the ITF to select instructors for a one year government expense paid trip out of the country? If I were President Park, and I hated General Choi as much as you say he did, then I would have cut him off and thrown him in jail like the rest of the problem people. That's what military dictators do right, use nasty politics to hurt their political opponents, which General Choi claims he was? 

That is the point, which you obviously missed. But really, who cares, except you. Please, do us all a favor and don't answer.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 24, 2011)

These are good questions & do require some thinking here about not only the context, but time line. I will attempt to address them 1 at a time, so we can continue to have what I hope will be a productive dialogue.
It is also helpful it one will realize that Gen Choi was a 2 Star Major General, 1 of the founding members of the ROK Army, an award winning calligraphy artist, the 1st Korean Ambassador to Malaysia, in addition the the author of several books. So he was an educated man, a politician & a shrewd tactician. Of course many if not all of the informed history buffs of our Art know, he used his military power to further his agenda. He also used the military dictatorship as well, for as long as he could. You do realize that the 1st Honorary President of the ITF was a KCIA Director, right? He used the support from that govt to get the funding for the goodwill world tour in 1965. It was set up by another Ambassador, a General Choi Duk Shin, that was moved out of Korea when Gen Park was consolidating his power. This Gen Choi eventually became their Foreign Minister. He of course exiled himself to the USA, then defected to north Korea.  


puunui said:


> My response was that assuming what you said was true, that General Choi was hated by President PARK Chung Hee because General Choi sat on his court martial and sentenced him to death, and therefore President Park used "nasty korean politics" to screw General Choi, then why did he allow General Choi to participate in Taekwondo at all? If President Park hated General Choi so much as you and chrispillertkd say (citing to General Choi's autobiography) then why didn't he simply kick him out of the ROK Army and deny him access to any governmental activity.


OK 1st of all I said that the Modern History stated that Gen Park "hated" Gen Choi. Please keep things straight. 
Now I can agree that a _possible _reason for the source of the  hatred was the fact that Gen Choi sat as a judge on a panel of 3  officers during the military tribunal that convicted Gen Park &  sentenced him to death. His death sentence was spared as he apparently  cooperated with efforts to expose other communists. Again a sample of  the nasty Korean politics. The young junior officer Park, was allowed  back in service with the outbreak of the Korean Civil War that started  on June 25, 1950. He rose again as another young high ranking officer.
Be that as it may, Gen Choi supported the military coup on May 16, 1961, as did most of the other high ranking officers. Now they did so, as some said, because they thought that the govt would be turned over to the people. As we know it never was during Gen Park's brutal regime.
Now how many high ranking officers were really going to follow Gen Park? That wasn't the plan. Gen Park even caught the USA off guard. he wasn't even on their radar. The corruption of the Rhee govt, followed by the confusion surrounding the ineptness of the govt after Rhee, the puppet president was ousted, was ripe for a coup. The coup was successful partially because no blood was spilled. That was because the cooperation was there. It however was short lived for some of the leading Korean powers to be.



puunui said:


> Why send him off to Malaysia as an ambassador?


Gen Park was looking to consolidate his power. This was a common tactic that he deployed. Gen Choi as even the Modern History states, was in charge of the 6th Army Corp. He was also a "commander of a combat operation, Director of Intelligence for the ROK Army, and commander of the 2nd Nonsan training facility". He had power, plain & simple. He had 100,000 troops under his command. He was plugged in to the power structure. Gen Park wanted him out of the country & moved him preciously when he made his move to assume the presidency (1962)! Remember I already quoted sources from researchers at the US Library of Congress that stated these junior officers had about 3,600 people under their command out of over 600,000 troops. Gen Choi had about 100,000 troops under his command in the capital of SeoulIt was 1962 when Gen Park promoted himself to 4 Star General & assumed the presidency. Prior to that, his military was running the country with both a president & prime minister technically in charge as the figure heads. One of them, I don't recall off the top of my head, capitulated & assured the US that all was under control. Once Gen Park's team orchestrated this, it paved the way for him to take over the presidency.



puunui said:


> After General Choi was forced back from Malaysia due to allegations of financial wrong doing, why didn't President Park charge General Choi with embezzlement of government funds and send him to jail? After all, he was a "military dictator", how hard would it have been for President Park to use "nasty Korean politics" to trump up some criminal charges and convict him?


Good question & 1 I asked myself. Now this charge appears to be baseless, made by his detractors. As you are 100% right, he could have been thrown in jail, as that is what dictators do. I have asked historians about this, other Korean grandmasters, another Ambassador to Malaysia from Korea, as well as a former deputy director of the KCIA.
I have found this charge in 1 place, Grandmaster Lee Chong Woo's interview by reporter Yook.
Have you ever seen this charge anywhere else?



puunui said:


> Why allow him to become KTA President? Why allow the ROK military to use his Chang Hon tul? Why allow the ITF to select instructors for a one year government expense paid trip out of the country? If I were President Park, and I hated General Choi as much as you say he did, then I would have cut him off and thrown him in jail like the rest of the problem people. That's what military dictators do right, use nasty politics to hurt their political opponents, which General Choi claims he was?


Again the time line & context of what was happening is important. Gen Choi returns in 1964. This was when Gen Park made his controversial move to Japan, which caused many protests. The next year Gen Park started to send combat troops at the request of the USA to Vietnam. He had bigger problems to worry about then. TKD was still not on the radar & Gen Choi was still working within the govt, as he was a shrewd palyer, double player etc. Remember he was working for the American CIA as well, at some point & them of course we know about his out reach to north Korea & his working with that regime, maybe the worst 1 on the planet. There were many allegations of north Korea using TKD for their KGB, you are aware of that, right?
Also I am not sure when Gen Park went to West Germany & was greeted at the airport by American & German Chang Hon TKD students, waving the Korean flags. When he went to them, he asked them what they were doing & they said that they were TKD students! This was huge & they say planted a seed that TKD could be beneficial to Korean propaganda & KCIA purposes.
Gen Choi's real problems with Gen Park, like many Koreans did not start till 1969, when he chaged their constitution again, so he could remain president with no more limits. In other words a dictator for life & his was, till he was killed by his own KCIA Direcotr on Oct 26, 1979, after 18 years of brutality, with the height of the brutality not coming till 1972. Remember he again changed the constitution & suspended their Parliament. It was 1972 when Gen Choi exiled himself. It is factual that Gen Choi's family was held hostage. Please just speak to Grandmaster Jhoon Rhee's students in the Dominican Republic, who got their president to intercede. They will talk about it, as will Mr Rhee & the members of the Choi family who were affected 1st hand by it! 



puunui said:


> That is the point, which you obviously missed. But really, who cares, except you. Please, do us all a favor and don't answer.


I am sorry if I missed any points. Please let me know & I will reply as soon as I can. It is no problem for me to answer, as I am happy to do so.
Now please feel free to respond to any of these specific points above.


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