# American Taekwondo Association



## cali_tkdbruin (May 16, 2003)

The ATA is a representative Taekwondo organization among American Taekwondoists here in the States.  From what I've heard and read, this organization has not been very representative of us Taekwondoists here in the U.S. 

I keep hearing about ATA dojangs just signing up students, and delivering crappy instruction, and offering contracts for 2-3 year black belt programs, and taking fiscally advantage of TKD students.

All I know is that my beloved Art, *TKD*, takes such a hit from these types of reports, and other non-TKD martial artists just take this and run with it. So why do we need need to feed them with this? I'm not blasting the *ATA*, I would just like to hear, and read the ATA side of this. I know we have WTF, and ITF practioners here, what about the ATA practitioners? 

A large majority of non-Taekwondoists all ready disrespect my ART, so why do we need to add fodder to  the naysayers. ATA step up, let's hear you.


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## MountainSage (May 16, 2003)

Bruin,
I'm WTF, but I have a thought you might have missed in your question about ATA.  Why was there a need for another TKD organization in the USA?  I have seen a number of websites and have come to believe that ATA is much like any other system of TKD in that there are good ones and bad ones. IMHO ATA is an attempt to remove the Korean poltics from a MA that could be much better than it is allowed to be.  The present format of WTF TKD seem to be a stripped down version for the purpose of getting the most BB possible in the shortest time with sparring skills.  If a person is willing to spend some time searching for the material that has been removed from the curiculum and learn those skills, I believe that the TKD jokes would stop.

Mountain Sage


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## Marginal (May 16, 2003)

The ATA seems to be modeled not on really teaching TKD, but on selling TKD as a product. How many other TKD organizations have numbers of students taught as a requisite for dan promotion? Just little things like that where headcount in a school's focused on over what goes on in the school is rather disquieting...


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## MountainSage (May 16, 2003)

Marginal, hate to break this to you, but it is the same way in WTF and ITF, it's just not talked about.  For a Master to promote, he/she must promote black belts and keep promoting to improve their position in the organization.  The more students and promotions the higher standing that person has.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but all the MA are similar.

Mountain Sage


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## celtic bhoy (May 16, 2003)

It's the same here. We tend to get a cut in waiting time between gradings if we attend more seminars. Or gradings are available on a monthly basis at your own club. It all keeps SOME students for the wrong reasons.

 Happy student has a black belt in double quick time, happy instructor has another happy black under his wing. Also the association they are part of have plenty of revenue coming in. Everyone is happy. More students, more black belts, more business. It is business combined with pleasure.

Mountain Sage is correct in what he says, MA are similar. They sell, you buy.  But there are instructors ot there who teach for the love of their art and not financial gain................somewhere.


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## Marginal (May 16, 2003)

MS: There's a difference between that and setting actual caps right in the testing requirements. That, and the other organizations don't make distinctions between a third dan with students and a third dan who has decided not to teach. ATA has started offering seperate dan ranks for the two etc. 

CB: You're still here? Attending a seminar isn't really the same thing. Just takes away from the time requirement because you're putting in more class time. What's wrong with that?


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## MountainSage (May 16, 2003)

marginal, I guess I don't have a problem with promotion caps.  If caps are in place then a student better work harder than the next one to get a slot on the next test.  I consider this motivation with a big stick.  I also believe that a dan that teaches should get a leg up over a non-teaching dan.  At my school we are required to teach those below our own grade level, no exceptions.  Teaching improves the skills of upper belts and dans.

Mountain Sage


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## Marginal (May 16, 2003)

It's not really reflective of the ability of the students or the the instructor's ability. It's simply a reward for being good at marketing, which seems a poor measure for dan advancement. How does packing a classroom make you a better fighter? 

All that really seems to be doing is encouraging the McDojo mentality of crank out a BB in the shortest amount of time possible regardless of whether or not they've gotten any relevant skills from their $100+ a month fees.


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## MartialArtist (May 17, 2003)

New Guiness World Record: Kid BB at the age of 5, completed in 14:52:37


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## celtic bhoy (May 17, 2003)

Mr Marginal,

Yes I am still here.

If the normal waiting time is 6 months between 1st kup and 1st Dan, and that gets cut in half just because you turned up to a 6 hour seminar, how are you putting in more class time? 

Would you really expect to be to the same standard as the man who trained religiously for the 6 months, or face facts, would you be trying to get your black belt quicker?

You are right, there is nothing wrong with using seminars to enhance your progress. But there is something wrong if you are just using seminars as a short cut.


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## Marginal (May 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by celtic bhoy _
> *Mr Marginal,
> 
> Yes I am still here.
> ...



The average class is what? An hour and a half long? The actual time is usually determined by hours under instruction rather than months as I understand it. (Usually based on the presumption of the person attending two classes per week on top of that.) That seminar would be about the equivalent of two weeks worth of classes by that standard.

How exactly do these seminars work? You are implying it takes only one now, but it started out with you saying they were attending several to cut that time down. 



> Would you really expect to be to the same standard as the man who trained religiously for the 6 months, or face facts, would you be trying to get your black belt quicker?



That's somewhat dependent on the quality/content of the seminar, and what role it actually plays since you seem to be getting somewhat confused about just how much time they cut off the requirements etc.


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## celtic bhoy (May 17, 2003)

Firstly, I am speaking from the point of view of how we train. I can't judge how YOU train. The same as you can't judge how WE train.

We train 2 hour sessions, 3 times a week. Work it out for yourself. 1 seminar no matter how good, won't make up for that amount of time. Also we have 2 seminars a year.


(Quote)All that really seems to be doing is encouraging the McDojo mentality of crank out a BB in the shortest amount of time possible regardless of whether or not they've gotten any relevant skills from their $100+ a month fees.(Unquote)

You more or less made the same point as me only a few threads ago.


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## Marginal (May 17, 2003)

This makes less and less sense. To recap, I commented on how the ATA tends to view TKD. You said it's exactly the same market driven model all over regardless of the organization....

Now you're saying you can't judge how anyone but you trains? I'm getting off right there. Bye.


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## celtic bhoy (May 17, 2003)

Marginal, thats because peoples training can be different, but their associations motives tend to be similar.

Thanks for reminding me to be more clear in what I'm saying and sorry for confusing you.  Fin.

Bye for now.


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## ThuNder_FoOt (May 19, 2003)

Hello,

I do have some ATA experience. I have a 2nd Dan level rank (i believe it may be expired now) in the American Taekwondo Association. Although my initial Taekwondo training began with WTF, I can answer any questions to the best of my ability in regards to the ATA.

I am not currently practicing under the ATA (the reason I believe my rank may be expired), but I still do train WTF. 

:asian:


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## voxtemporalis (Jun 1, 2003)

It is strange that you should say that the ATA delivers crappy instruction  I am currently a member of an ATA school and have been nothing but happy with the instruction that I have been given.  

Yes, we do have contracts, but the contracts that I am signing are for belt promotion.  The first contract that I signed stated that I would pay a certain amount of money for a certain amount of time (It was like 3 or 4 months) and then I wouldnt pay anything until I promoted out of my Camo belt.  I can then sign another such similar contract, and as such I am never locked into an overly long program.  I, seemingly contrary to everyone else, prefer this type of contract system.  So, if it takes me 50 years to get my red belt, I would pay the same amount of money as someone who has taken 2 years to get it.

My instructor also teaches about the weakness of taekwondo and we are taught methods of compensating.  We are taught grappling, weapon defense (although we are cautioned to attempt to get away first), and other such things.  

Although, having said this, I have no experience with ATA schools other than my own so I wouldnt be qualified to say anything about the ATA as a whole.  Anyone else have similar experiences?


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## Disco (Jun 1, 2003)

I'm a little confused. How can your Dan ranking "expire"? Does the ATA issue rank certificates like a drivers lic, with a renewal date? Not trying to be a smart a**, I've just never heard of such a thing.........
:asian:


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## voxtemporalis (Jun 1, 2003)

As far as I knew, they don't expire per se, but your membership to the ATA expires.  You pay an anual membership fee to the ATA (25$) sort of like a gym, and it allows you to train at any ATA affiliated school.


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *I'm a little confused. How can your Dan ranking "expire"? Does the ATA issue rank certificates like a drivers lic, with a renewal date? Not trying to be a smart a**, I've just never heard of such a thing.........
> :asian: *



Yes, it seems to be similar to a Driver's license, with an expiration date. I believe that by not reinstating my ATA membership, my Dan expires. I'm not exactly sure how it works, I haven't been to my ATA school in a long while... but I know that being a (expired) 2nd Dan, I can't attend any ATA events as such.  No competitions, no TKD training, and etc. I would have to sign another contract for the term that my instructor chooses. I believe that would re-instate my Dan ranking. I would have to go through a mini-testing to show that I can still demonstrate the qualifications for 2nd Dan effeciently. I guess its the ATA's incentive to keep its students constantly participating in the art.

I know that in WTF, my Dan doesn't expire. At anytime I could take up a tournament or train without reinstating a contract. I can attend seminars, and things alike... whether I'm current or not. 

I also know that the ATA dojangs are (for the most part) independantly owned, so this may be something that only a few instructors enforce... mine being one of them. Its not necessarily bad though,  its a good way to keep the students training!


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## Zepp (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> *Yes, it seems to be similar to a Driver's license, with an expiration date. I believe that by not reinstating my ATA membership, my Dan expires. I'm not exactly sure how it works, I haven't been to my ATA school in a long while... but I know that being a (expired) 2nd Dan, I can't attend any ATA events as such.  No competitions, no TKD training, and etc. I would have to sign another contract for the term that my instructor chooses. I believe that would re-instate my Dan ranking. I would have to go through a mini-testing to show that I can still demonstrate the qualifications for 2nd Dan effeciently. I guess its the ATA's incentive to keep its students constantly participating in the art.
> *



That sounds a wee bit McDojoish if you don't mind my saying so.  I understand the need for re-testing, but couldn't you just pay a membership fee directly to the organization?

A 2nd dan ranking should indicate that you have enough experience to train others (at least up until whatever rank comes before 1st dan in the ATA).  What if you chose to begin teaching TKD, and you wanted your students to be affiliated with them; would they still require you to sign a contract with another instructor?


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *That sounds a wee bit McDojoish if you don't mind my saying so.  I understand the need for re-testing, but couldn't you just pay a membership fee directly to the organization?
> 
> A 2nd dan ranking should indicate that you have enough experience to train others (at least up until whatever rank comes before 1st dan in the ATA).  What if you chose to begin teaching TKD, and you wanted your students to be affiliated with them; would they still require you to sign a contract with another instructor? *



One can choose to send the membership fee to either the Organization directly, or through the instructor. 

I could begin to train others in ATA, but I would have to redo the Instructorship training program. It consists of a certain number of hours teaching under your head instructor, and attending a certain number of training camps. 

There may be additional classes that have been added since I completed the program. Those would have to be comleted in order for my Instructor title to be re-instated under ATA, but with my expired Dan rankings... I can't participate in it. If I were to re-instate my ranking, I could open my own school, or a club at a College campus... but I'm not interested in teaching.

Being that my ranking has expired, things may have changed in the ATA.  So I'm not positive if thats still the way things are currently done. 


:asian:


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> *Yes, it seems to be similar to a Driver's license, with an expiration date. I believe that by not reinstating my ATA membership, my Dan expires. I'm not exactly sure how it works, I haven't been to my ATA school in a long while... but I know that being a (expired) 2nd Dan, I can't attend any ATA events as such.  No competitions, no TKD training, and etc. I would have to sign another contract for the term that my instructor chooses. I believe that would re-instate my Dan ranking. I would have to go through a mini-testing to show that I can still demonstrate the qualifications for 2nd Dan effeciently. I guess its the ATA's incentive to keep its students constantly participating in the art.
> 
> *


So please clarify something, if you were to go into any ATA dojang for a workout, would they still accept and respect your 2nd dan BB or not? 
As far as I know, being that I'm KKW certified, if I were to go train at a WTF/KKW affiliated dojang they would still respect my dan rank even though I didn't earn it through their dojang... :asian:


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## voxtemporalis (Jul 28, 2003)

> So please clarify something, if you were to go into any ATA dojang for a workout, would they still accept and respect your 2nd dan BB or not?



Yup.  We recently had a student from AZ come to CT on vacation.  She trained with us for two weeks and then went back home.  The only thing that you need to do is have your instructor call the dojang that you want to train at to let them know that you are comming.  They would still respect anyone's dan ranking regardless of where it is earned.

~SB


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jul 28, 2003)

Okay, thanx for the info... :asian:


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin _
> *So please clarify something, if you were to go into any ATA dojang for a workout, would they still accept and respect your 2nd dan BB or not?
> As far as I know, being that I'm KKW certified, if I were to go train at a WTF/KKW affiliated dojang they would still respect my dan rank even though I didn't earn it through their dojang... :asian: *



Would this apply even though my Dan is expired?


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## Kodanjaclay (Jul 30, 2003)

Your dan does not expire. Your NGB membership does. The two are not necessarily inter-related. Once you earn your dan, you are that dan, unless for some reason it is revoked, or you resign it. It may be ethical to resign if you no longer practice, but that is a totally separate topic.


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jul 31, 2003)

I see. Just wondering, who is the new grandmaster?  Is it still the Master Council? Or did they appoint someone as GM now?


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## Kodanjaclay (Jul 31, 2003)

oops. I think we have a boo boo in communication. The WTF is who I was referring to, and I think you were referring to the ATA. I do not keep up with American organizations normally. Sorry.


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## drunkenfist (Aug 2, 2003)

Here is a quick thought for all you guys....My TKD school does not have any affiliations to Itf,WTF,OR ATA........The Grandmaster said they were doing something to his art that he did not like.........
He lost most of his schools nationwide because they broke away and joined these organizations 20 years ago...People from our school are 1 million times more brutal than any of the other TKD schools around here.....He must be doing something right we have taken alot of tournaments by storm winning a good majority of the competitions....The owner of my school is from Korea...


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## A.R.K. (Aug 2, 2003)

DF,

Alright partner, here we go  

I agree with your instructor.  Let me give you an example that is personal to me.  I have a Dan in TKD but I have chosen not to go with WTF or ITF etc.  Now my instructor in TKD is Disco here on the board.  He is a registered Master in both WTF & WIF.  I have three associates who are also registered Masters in WTF that have recognized my training thru my Instructor as well.

Now think about this for a moment.  I have been promoted to X Dan in TKD by a registered WTF Master with the okey dokey of three other WTF registered Masters according to the requirements as set down by WTF.  Yet another poster, who is no longer on this board, once told me my Dan was not legitimate because I was not registered with the WTF.  According to him, if anyone's TKD was not WTF TKD...then it wasn't TKD at all.  With all due respect, I beg to differ.  If the training I or anyone recieved was according to set guidelines, especially if  the instructor were WTF then the training is sound.  To send the several hundred dollars for my Dan level to the WTF in no way changes, or enhances my training.  That piece of paper doesn't change my skill level.

And let me say that if an individual chooses to go WTF, or anything else then that is great.  They make a choice that is right for them.  But to say their training is invalid because of lack of membership in a particular organization is IMHO wrong.  Substandard training yes...a piece of paper, no.  

I choose the WIF for reasons not related to TKD, however they have recognized my TKD as a side benefit.  So I suppose my Dan may not be legite to some and to others it's fine.  I can live with that because I know in my heart the skill is sound.  And isn't that the point to begin with?

:asian:


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## cali_tkdbruin (Aug 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> ...Yet another poster, who is no longer on this board, once told me my Dan was not legitimate because I was not registered with the WTF.  According to him, if anyone's TKD was not WTF TKD...then it wasn't TKD at all.  With all due respect, I beg to differ.
> 
> *



Anbody who would post such an asinine statement, or believes such nonsense is ignorant IMHO. 
I received my dan rank through the WTF-Kukkiwon, but so what, I'm well aware that we aren't  the only TKD game in town. 

One certainly *DOES NOT* need to be Kukkiwon dan certified to be a legit., worthy BB. I know, I've seen my share of non-WTF affiliated TKD practitioners and some of them are pretty damn good and polished MAtists...  :asian:


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## drunkenfist (Aug 2, 2003)

I don't know why we can't all be happy with our schools period.
Do you like your instructor? As long as you are happy with your training then nothing else matters.I personally don't care about affiliations,etc. My Grandmaster is great voted worlds fastest living kicker so I know my training is good.We had an ATA guy comeup once and sorry his forms were sloppy and he was very errogant.


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 3, 2003)

<<Yet another poster, who is no longer on this board, once told me my Dan was not legitimate because I was not registered with the WTF.>>

This person did not know what they are talking about. 
In fact, Yee, Yong Woo did not have a WTF dan, until one was presented to him... I don't think he even claims it, yet he is one of the Founders of TKD. He founded JungDoKwan and currently serves as head of the KKW high dan promotions committee.

If you want to compete in KKW events, then YES you must have a KKW certification. If you have no desire to compete, then I fail to see how a Kukkiwon would help you, unless you intend to use it as a "quality" standard. If that is the case, it is important to note, that KKW has not been certified by any governmental agency, nor the ISO, for quality. In other words, they have not met the standards for Quality certification. Unless you are a quality professional you may not get what I am alluding to, but it is important.


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## Disco (Aug 3, 2003)

Mr. Clay

A couple of questions for your consideration. There is a rumor that there is going to be a combined WTF/ITF Olympic team. Whats your impression on this? If this does happen, do you see a possible merging of styles, since GM Choi is now no longer with us?

Do you see the AAU becoming the new NGB for TKD in America?

On the Hapkido side of things, have you ever heard of a GM Youg Ki Song?

I see where you are scheduled for a seminar in TaeGukKwon. Is that a style of TKD or something else?

Interesting that you specify that the KKW is not sanctioned by the Korean Gov't or has meet guidelines for quality. Do you think that this effects or should effect certifications from the KKW?

Are the individual Kwans certified/sanctioned by the Gov't?

OK, I'll stop. Really did'nt mean to deluge you, but it's like eating chips. Can't eat just one:rofl: 

Thanks for all your assistance.:asian:


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 3, 2003)

Sabum,

Let me begin by first clarifying one thing. Kukkiwon IS sanctioned by the Korean Government. It is not a certified Quality organization. They are two different things. Quality is a science, and is perpetrated by ISO on an international level, for example ISO 9000, or Air Guality which is defined by its own ISO (14001), and pertains to HVAC units and air quality classifications. In the United States the "official" Quality program is Baldrige and was passed into US las by Congressional act. Not the same thing, I think that I have shown.

I have heard that there would be a loosening of standards between the WTF and ITF; however, I do not know if that has taken place. I sincerely doubt that there would be a combined team at this time because Kyorugi is not a simple sport that anyone can just pick up. It takes training work, sweat and effort. I am not saying ITF people don't have that, but I doubt that in the short time that Major General Choi has been deceased, that they would have been able to develop an Olympic class athlete.

I am familiar with Song, Yong-Ki as he would be my great grandmaster as it were, though I have never trained with him. My current certification is in Haemukwan from Richard Hackworth. Dr. Hackworth trained in Grandmaster Song's Kwan in Korea. If memory serves, I believe he also serves, or served, as the personal trainer to the sultan of Brunie's son.

I am not sure about the current status of Kwan certification and government sanctioning. I believe that via membership in their NGB, this is a possibilty; however, I cannot answer this one accurately, as it is beyond the scope of my knowledge. I can say that it is common for people to have both Kukkiwon/KTA certification and Kwan certification.

I have been asked to do a seminar on Taegeukkwan. This is a tranlation of Taijiquan. I have been practicing this art for two decades, and I find that it offers a multitude of benefits. In fact Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida just put out a brief blurb on its benefits.

Sabum, never feel as though you are bothering or overwhelming. i will be the first to admit that I do not know everything, and there has been numerous occasions where through dialogue such as this, I have learned new things. I enjoy learning and sharing. Please feel free to email me at any time at  haemukwan@earthlink.net.

Finally, My name is Frank. Master and Mr. are both titles, and though a form of respect, I do not feel that they are necessary in such an informal environment as this. Please feel free to call me by my name. I know there are those who feel that I should always be called by my formal title, and this is fine. Just remember that master just means I'm getting older. (lol).

With warmest regards,


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## Disco (Aug 3, 2003)

Kwan Jang Nim


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 4, 2003)

Just a couple of things.

ARK, you are 10th degree in TKD?

Kodanjaclay, some sort of merging of one group of ITF with WTF is very likely.  But it should probably be called "swallowing" of that ITF group since it is so small compared to WTF.  ITF split into 3 major groups, one of them (North Korean group) is trying to work something out with the WTF and will probably be successful since it would be a political move to make North Korea happy.  When that happens will that mean that ITF and WTF merged, nope, it means one small group became WTF as far as I'm concerned.  The rest of ITF wants nothing to do with WTF or North Korea.

Drunkenfist, we are all proud of our school and our instructors but be careful dude, you come off as thinking your better than most other TKD artists.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 4, 2003)

Mr. Mavis,

I am confused. You said that the group in North Korea would merge with the WTF to make North Korea happy.

As far as I know there are no branches of the ITF in the ROK which is where Kukkiwon/WTA/KTA is located. The DPRK is North Korea. There is no relationship between the ROK and the DPRK save for a 50 year cease-fire, and a re-freezing of a once thawing relationship, thanks to Kim, Il-Jung, whom if I had to bet I would think would be certifiable with a Napoleonic complex, but that is another story.

I find it hard to believe that any branch of the ITF would willingly join the WTF. The styles are just too different. I think that would cause a whole lot of splintering within the affected ITF group.

Can you help me better understand your point?


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## Galvatron (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kodanjaclay _
> *If you want to compete in KKW events, then YES you must have a KKW certification.*



In the U.S. you no longer need Kukkiwon certification to compete in USTU events or on the olympic level.
The U.S. Olympic Committee ruled that requiring domestic amateur athletes to register with a foriegn government (which is basically what a Kukkiwon dan is) was a no-no and told the USTU to stop it.


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 4, 2003)

Actually, that is beyond the scope of their power. There has been quite a bit or arguing over this very thing as it is direct violation of the Sports Act, i believe of either 1974 or 1978 wherein no American athlete can be forced to  obtain recognition from a foreign body to compete on behalf of the US. To date, that has not been resolved as far as I know, and if you have a copy of any such decision, I would love to see it. Of course, what you indicated would only apply to the Olympics, and there are many more international events than that.

Let me know what you find/found out.

Thanks,


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## A.R.K. (Aug 5, 2003)

> ARK, you are 10th degree in TKD?



Damien, good Lord NO!!!  I'm not a 10th Dan in anything.  Not even American Realistic Karate...and I founded this discipline.   

I hold a WIF 4th Dan in Han Moo Kwan.  And that is as far as I will ever go as my focus is now on developing ARK as best as I'm able.

:asian:


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## drunkenfist (Aug 8, 2003)

Damien I'm just better than the ones I deal with at my school because I like to try new things out.My instructor told me that the ATA guy was sloppy but he was mean none the less.If I thought I was good/knew everything I surely would'nt take classes anymore in my core art.I would'nt be able to hang with Tae Kwon Do without the other art.I feel that Tae Kwon Do lacks the most important aspects of training found in other arts.It's not really TKD in general because the art is still mostly very new.My school does not recognize other arts for anything nor encourages students to even look at them.I'm the only one that sneaks to a training hall to begin to learn what other people do.I have regard for my school but lets face it there are many other people out there that are better.If TKD had qi gong etc. it would be a very awesome art but it does'nt.


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 9, 2003)

Ark, I don't know why but I thought you previously said "I have a X dan in..."  Don't know why I saw a roman numeral X before.....


Kodanjaclay, it's not my point you need me to clarify it's current events and information you haven't received yet.  Do you really not know what has happened the past few years in the ITF?  Before General Choi died (you did know he passed away right?)he gave the ITF to North Korea, Master Choi (General Choi's son) knew this was coming and splintered off with all of us that wanted nothing to do with such an evil government.  The Vienna group also splintered off as they wanted nothing to do with North Korea or Master Choi.  There are now 3 major groups claiming to be ITF all headed by a different person.  The North Korean group (run by a North Korean politician) is trying to use TKD as a political tool and is trying to get some sort of merging going on.  Basically what you suggested was correct, the North Koreans getting the ITF caused the ITF to splinter.

By the way, there is ITF in South Korea, it is under Master Choi's organisation.  And the great leader of North Korea is promoted as the "founder" of TKD  instead of General Choi.  Just threw in that last bit of information because it disgusts me.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Langdow (Aug 9, 2003)

Damian where does the US fit into this, I know GM Sereff was moving away at one point . . . have they started their own splinter or are they with one of the other 3 groups

And I also believe you did see an "X Dan" from ark, I think the context of it was "say I have a *whatever* dan from the WTF"

Confused me too


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 9, 2003)

USTF under the Sereffs splintered off and they are on their own now, I don't think they still call themselves ITF.  Some of USTF left them and came over to Master Choi's group.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Langdow (Aug 9, 2003)

Thanks Damian, clears up some confusion for me


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## A.R.K. (Aug 9, 2003)

Damian,

I probably did post that I have 'X' Dan, I just figured it didn't matter what the actual degree was in that particular conversation so I put x in place of the degree number.  

I'm actually a 'IV' Dan in TKD    Never to be a V or higher  

:asian:


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 12, 2003)

Damian,

I know that the ITF had put out much innuendo, and I know that none of the information they put out was substnatiated by any of my sources in the ROK, so I relegated it to heresay. 

TKD is regulated in the ROK. The Masters I talked to said they would love to know where an ITF school is in the ROK. I suspect the government would as well.

All TKD schools, which openly propagate TKD in the ROK are supposed to be affiliated with the KTA, and the KTA is the Korean NGB. This is a matter of Korean law. After Choi's "treasonous" actions (in quotes because I believe that one to be debatable), Choi was removed from any history in Korea. No one would openly claim affiliation with him. Heck, after he forced the name change to TKD, there was a movement to get rid of him, with some of the Masters helping him to set up the ITF, but he had to give up any claim to TKD in the ROK. Grandmaster Uhm, Un-Kyu was a part of this movement.

If you have documentable evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. As I mentioned, my sources in Korea do not substantiate what you have indicated.


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## Galvatron (Aug 12, 2003)

I've heard about the ITF Dojang in the ROK also. They had photos of it, and some brief words about it on one of the many "official" ITF websites out there. I remember reading it and thinking "well, isnt that special".

I'll see if I can dig it up...


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 12, 2003)

thanks


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## Galvatron (Aug 12, 2003)

www.itf-online.com

Read the June 8th, 2003 article on the ITF 'goodwill' trip to the ROK.
It's mentioned in there...they mention 'opening the first ITF dojang in Korea'


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## Galvatron (Aug 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kodanjaclay _
> *Actually, that is beyond the scope of their power. There has been quite a bit or arguing over this very thing as it is direct violation of the Sports Act, i believe of either 1974 or 1978 wherein no American athlete can be forced to  obtain recognition from a foreign body to compete on behalf of the US. To date, that has not been resolved as far as I know, and if you have a copy of any such decision, I would love to see it. Of course, what you indicated would only apply to the Olympics, and there are many more international events than that.
> 
> Let me know what you find/found out.
> ...




I checked with my former TKD instructor, Master Ron Berry concerning this. He is a Kukkiwon 6th Dan and certified USTU Referee.
He said that Kukkiwon's are no longer required to compete amateurly by a U.S. Athlete. All you need is a Dan certificate from any TKD school. The USTU still requires a Kukkiwon though to referee. 
The USTU has begun it's own Dan certification program though and will eventually most likely begin the requiring of a USTU Dan to compete/officiate.

Anyhow, that's what I've been able to dig up...still looking for a website or something that mentions it.


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 15, 2003)

Kodanjaclay, which parts are hard to believe?  Everything I said or just the part about ITF in South Korea?  And I don't mean to sound like a jerk but why are you talking to WTF people about ITF and expecting informed answers?  And why do you infer that ITF lies and you need proof of our history?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Mithios (Aug 15, 2003)

Oh,chang jin run's the itf-korea org. It is with itf, headed by Choi, jung hwa from canada!! ITF Tae Kwon-Do has been in south Korea (rok) for a year maybe 2 ?? Go to itf-korea.org.   Mithios


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 16, 2003)

Kodanjaclay, which parts are hard to believe? Everything I said or just the part about ITF in South Korea? And I don't mean to sound like a jerk but why are you talking to WTF people about ITF and expecting informed answers? And why do you infer that ITF lies and you need proof of our history?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


First off, this board is a hodgepodge of stylists. Not exclusively ITF or WTF. Second part, I find it very hard to believe about the ITF being in the ROK for the aforementioned reasons... namely the fact that Choi was accused of treason, the KTA has the ROK tied up, and other DOCUMENTED information. I have never inferred anyone lies. I am an engineer by trade, and I deal on a daily basis with documented fact. Before I accept anything as  fact, I try to either substantiate it or discredit it. Its the scientific method. My intent is not to hurt your, or anyone else's feelings, but I have an obligation to my students to ensure that the information I provide is accurate. To that end, if I find an error in something I either teach or have been taught, and I can substantiate it, I modify my teaching.

I realize you do not know me, but rest assured I never infer anything. I say what I think. I will be perfectly honest with you... all martial arts organizations "modify" history. Thats the way things have been done forever and a day in the world in general. For example, in the Kukkiwon textbook there is a reference to Taekwondo in the ancient past. we know this to be an impossibility based on the facts of the Japanese occupation of WWII and its impact on Sino and Korean society. Does it make more sense now? I could care less about organization. I am after the truth and I personally believe that there are bits and pieces of it floating around in different places.

I hope this helps clarify my position.


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## Mithios (Aug 16, 2003)

Mr.Clay ,  Have you went to the itf-korea.org site ??


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 16, 2003)

Mithios,

Not yet. I was on the road re-locating. I just read the rest of this thread. Don't let anyone you know rent a UHaul. The first one we got broke down, the second one caught fire and the third had no suspension... just absolutely ridiculous. Needless to say last night was my first night back online since moving.


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 16, 2003)

If this is accurate, there has been a loosening of the reigns of the WTF. Thanks. It has stimulating more questions, and I do believe I have some information to try and dig out.

Great Stuff. Thanks again. While not documented evidence, it does give me a starting point. It is interesting to note that the.org suffix is usually owned by Americans; however, it is clearly Korean in origin, as the who-is data supports. According to this, the record was created in January of this past year, so I'm assuming this is a new development? I wonder if the loostening has to do with the passing of Choi? I would think that it would be unethical to punish those that were innocent for any action, real or allegede, that Choi committed.


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 16, 2003)

Well rest assured if I'm saying it, it is not an embellishment or a lie to make my federation look good.  Having said that I will tell you honestly that I don't know what exactly is going on in South Korea, I think they are just starting up.  They probably have a few colour belts and that is it, I don't think they are very big.  My colleague has gone there to do a seminar for ITF and in the pics it becomes obvious that the black belts attending are either currently associated with WTF or used to be.  But even if it's just a small start it can only grow and I'm interested in seeing how it grows, in fact I might visit it myself. I was even considering teaching ITF there... but now it looks like I'll be teaching WTF in Thailand... go figure.  At least I'll be closer to Korea if I do decide to go visit.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## cali_tkdbruin (Aug 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kodanjaclay _
> *
> For example, in the Kukkiwon textbook there is a reference to Taekwondo in the ancient past. we know this to be an impossibility based on the facts of the Japanese occupation of WWII and its impact on Sino and Korean society. Does it make more sense now?
> *



Sir, I have always believed that Taekwondo is a hybrid martial art but with ancient origins. According to various sources including the USOC's TKD wing and yes the Kukkiwon, I've learned as much. 

To paraphrase, "Taekwondo is a traditional Korean martial art Its origins are not well known but three possibilities are often described. One traces taekwondo to Korea's three-kingdom era (ca. 50 BC) when Silla Dynasty warriors, the Hwarang, began to develop a martial art, tae kyon ("foot-hand"). Others feel that taekwondo began as a form of Chinese boxing, which was established at the Shaolin Temple in 520 BC by Bodhidharma, the founder of Zen Buddhism. A third possibility is that taekwondo developed from Japanese or Okinawan karate. It is now felt that taekwondo probably developed from other Asian martial arts combined with traditional Korean techniques of kickboxing."

I'm certain you've heard and read much of this same type of information.  All of this appears to be true. In any event, from the research I've done on my art, which may be flawed, sure I do realize that Taekwondo is relatively new, just having been officially born in the mid 1950's. In any event, from everything I've read it cannot be denied that TKD does have historical, ancient origins. IMHO, to deny as much would be an injustice to TKD. This issue is much like Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, which is also relatively new, however, the art itself traces its origins back many, many years. Moreover, like TKD, JKD it is an amalgam of many differing styles. 

So can they be called historical MAs? Well that depends on your interpretation on what is a historical MA.

Just My Take... :asian:


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 16, 2003)

R.

Taekyun is the oldest form of martial arts which is actually traceable save for perhaps Sorim or Bulmudo. Taekyun  although oftentimes quoted as being the root of TKD is not. I have seen it performed by the Korea Taekyun Association and to be honest, it reminds me somewhere between dance and a seriously brutal game of hackey sack. This is not to say that it is not effective... I would certainly hate to be kicked by one of those boys or girls.

TKD evolved with one exception, from either Shudokan or Shotokan. One, I'm thinking KangDukKwan, and I will verify this later today, was said to be from Ch'uanFa. I have a chart somewhere that shows which of the Five original kwans was founded by who and what the alleged root was.

Let me know what else you find in your research. I love discussing this aspect of Mudo. It is usually educational for both parties


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## Disco (Aug 16, 2003)

Was this a permanent move for you? Have you found anything to your liking (martial arts wise) yet? Wishing you good fortune and health.
:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 18, 2003)

Were you talking to me Disco?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Disco (Aug 18, 2003)

But I'm glad that you are also back. You have a time frame for when you are going back to the far east?
:asian:


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## Kodanjaclay (Aug 19, 2003)

This move may be permanent for me. I am currently training at the National Wushu Training Center. I can't say I'm that interested in Wushu, but I am very interested in furthering my Taijiquan knowledge. I do not know if you are aware, but I also practice TSD, and will be furthering my knowledge of this art under Pak, Ho-Sik. For you "Best of the Best" fans, he was the Korean who planted his elbow in Virgil's, the Buddhist, back.

Damian, please have a safe trip to the Orient. Bring me back a couple of souvenirs... female about 5 foot or so... j/k Seriously ,have a good trip.


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## Damian Mavis (Aug 19, 2003)

Sorry Disco, I missed Kodanjaclay mentioning he was moving oops.

I'll be moving to Thailand Dec. 1st this year.  I won't be able to bring you back any wives any time soon Kodanjaclay as I'll be staying there permanently unless things go horribly wrong, sorry... heh.  But your welcome to come pick them up at your earliest convenience!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Spud (Oct 21, 2003)

Very interesting discussion here. I earned by 1st Dan in ATA in 1992. I let my training idle for 10 years and have restarted in the ATA. My instructor (and ATA) recognize my earlier rank regardless of 10 years of inactivity and no annual dues. 

The ATA seems to provide a very structured franchise program for their school owners with a fairly complete business model and the business/marketing training to operate a financially successful school. (my observation as a student, not a instructor/owner). 

I share some concerns about schools being belt-factories and the focus being on the business end instead of training. I think that is the exception and not the rule. But the emphasis on business can set up that scenario.

Im looking forward to participating in these forums. The discussions seem to be well focused and respectful.


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