# Lower belts keep kicking me in the groin. Need advice.



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 16, 2021)

(Karate practitioner here)
Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.

What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2021)

Are you wearing a cup?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2021)

I'm with Flying Crane: first advice is wear a cup. It won't eliminate all discomfort, but it certainly will make it much less painful (and less likely to cause actual injury).

You should expect new students to be bad. They're probably aiming at your stomach or such, trying to imitate what has been done to them. But they can't quite get there (at least not reliably), so they miss. And they miss reliably.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 16, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Are you wearing a cup?


Admittedly no, as I actually received a groin injury from a cup at one point (due to sliding out of place). I'm basically terrified to even put one on now.

However, this isn't just the groin; I've taken inadvertent strikes to the knee as well (low kicks aren't permitted in my style). Basically my entire lower body has seen countless, avoidable injuries due to this.


----------



## seasoned (Oct 16, 2021)

Once you have the cup in place this will give you safe passage to practice your blocking...also how long have you been training?


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 16, 2021)

seasoned said:


> Once you have the cup in place this will give you safe passage to practice your blocking...also how long have you been training?


I have been training for five years. If it matters, I have gotten kicked in the groin about 40 times (rough guess) and had several knee injuries, two of which were dislocations, but all of which were due to this problem.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Admittedly no, as I actually received a groin injury from a cup at one point (due to sliding out of place).
> 
> However, this isn't just the groin; I've taken inadvertent strikes to the knee as well (low kicks aren't permitted in my style). Basically my entire lower body has seen countless, avoidable injuries due to this.


Ok well, your initial post gives the impression that it is the groin, and a cup goes a long way in providing some protection for that.  

Sparring beginners is interesting because they tend to behave unpredictably and they tag you in ways you don’t expect.  So it’s good training.  Interesting that experienced people, while technically better, can also be somewhat predictable because of the training.  

At any rate, you need to work on that.  Get in there, and experience will teach you how to deal with it, assuming you are getting quality training in your school.  Put the cup back on (get one that fits properly), perhaps consider some leg protection, knee and shin pads, etc.  that can give you the peace of mind to work through it until you develop your skills.


----------



## MadMartigan (Oct 16, 2021)

In my experience, most sparring injuries occur when one side gets pushed past their level of control. I never hurt someone that I'm significantly better than, as I have the time and ability to control the pace of the match. This also keeps me from getting hit by an inexperienced fighter.

Should someone be able to push me to where instict for self preservation kicks in, then I'll make mistakes.

Perhaps your pushing the lower belts to this place, resulting in them just throwing for the fences trying to hit anything. Try pulling back a bit, and letting them set up their attacks. You may find they'll make less mistakes while they're just learning how to control their kicks.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 16, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok well, your initial post gives the impression that it is the groin, and a cup goes a long way in providing some protection for that.
> 
> Sparring beginners is interesting because they tend to behave unpredictably and they tag you in ways you don’t expect.  So it’s good training.  Interesting that experienced people, while technically better, can also be somewhat predictable because of the training.
> 
> At any rate, you need to work on that.  Get in there, and experience will teach you how to deal with it, assuming you are getting quality training in your school.  Put the cup back on (get one that fits properly), perhaps consider some leg protection, knee and shin pads, etc.  that can give you the peace of mind to work through it until you develop your skills.


This is honestly what I needed to hear, i.e. whether or not this was a good part of training or an issue that needed to be fixed. I'll try to work with this from now on and basically treat lower belts as if they're Muay Thai champions. (not being sarcastic)


----------



## skribs (Oct 16, 2021)

In class one day, I was the fifth person to spar a specific girl.  The last four people I had either heard them yell at her for kicking them in the groin, or else I saw them walking with the "my crotch hurts" shuffle after sparring her.

Instead of keeping my hands up, I kept them down.  About a foot in front of my groin, just a little bit lower, ready to intercept any kicks.  My Master saw this, and nodded his approval.  The girl asks, "Do I have a reputation?"


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I have been training for five years. If it matters, I have gotten kicked in the groin about 40 times (rough guess) and had several knee injuries, two of which were dislocations, but all of which were due to this problem.


If you're getting knees dislocated during training, that's a red flag to me that there's a lack of safety and control in the room.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 16, 2021)

Leg check.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2021)

My thoughts:
1. Wear a cup.  If you are getting hurt because of the cup then you are probably wearing  the wrong size or not wearing it properly.  Cups are uncomfortable but they feel much better than regular kicks to the groin.

2. If beginners are kicking you in the groin because of round house kicks then they are doing the kick correctly. Bad aim but correct in all concepts of fighting.  There is an assumption that roundhouse kicks can't be thrown to the groin.

3.  The reason you are getting kicked in groin from round house kicks and knees is because your stance is unguarded.  This simply means your are standing in a way that opens your groin to that kind of kick.   This is an weakness that you need to work on, but it's better to fix this weakness while wearing a cup.  Pay more attention to your stance and what you are doing when you are getting kicked in the groin.

Groin strikes are legit in fighting so from that aspect.  You should stand and fight in a way that minimizes that risk.

Just thought of a 4th.
If  you are taller than the people you are sparring then lower your stance a little. If you are the same size as the person, then lower your stance a little.  Having a tall fighting stances increases the risk of being kicked in the groin.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If you're getting knees dislocated during training, that's a red flag to me that there's a lack of safety and control in the room.


I'm trying to figure how the knee gets dislocated when getting kicked in the groin.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


1 - Wear a cup.
or better yet
2 - Figure out what's wrong with your technique, preventing you from guarding your groin.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 16, 2021)

First rule of karate is don't get hit.
Second rule is if you get hit, it's your fault. 
Lower belts are great teachers, they'll wreck you. Best suggestion I have is step up your game. 

To avoid low kicks, get out of the way. Step offline, turn, just move away. If you want to teach as well as learn, catch or jam kicks and knock them down.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 16, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm trying to figure how the knee gets dislocated when getting kicked in the groin.


It doesn't lol I'm talking about unintentional lower body hits in general



Bill Mattocks said:


> First rule of karate is don't get hit.
> Second rule is if you get hit, it's your fault.
> Lower belts are great teachers, they'll wreck you. Best suggestion I have is step up your game.
> 
> To avoid low kicks, get out of the way. Step offline, turn, just move away. If you want to teach as well as learn, catch or jam kicks and knock them down.





Dirty Dog said:


> 1 - Wear a cup.
> or better yet
> 2 - Figure out what's wrong with your technique, preventing you from guarding your groin.


The problem so much isn't low kicks as it as bad high kicks that end up becoming lowkicks halfway through the technique + the fact that low kicks are not allowed in our style and should not be thrown anyway. The focus in Shotokan is everything above the belt + the absolute lower part of the foot (for sweeps). Compare it to a face punch suddenly being thrown in a Kyokushin match.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> It doesn't lol I'm talking about unintentional lower body hits in general
> 
> 
> 
> The problem so much isn't low kicks as it as bad high kicks that end up becoming lowkicks halfway through the technique + the fact that low kicks are not allowed in our style and should not be thrown anyway.


Technique not allowed...

This does not compute.

I hope I never have to explain to an attacker that his techniques aren't permitted. 

I repeat, lower belts will wreck you. Learn to protect yourself, or don't I guess.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 16, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Technique not allowed...
> 
> This does not compute.
> 
> ...


I should elaborate that my school does sport Karate, aka what you see in the Olympics. And to my knowledge, most fighting sports do not permit groin kicks during sparring. In fact, I believe that such a technique is severely discouraged in most dojos.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> The problem so much isn't low kicks as it as bad high kicks that end up becoming lowkicks halfway through the technique + the fact that low kicks are not allowed in our style and should not be thrown anyway. The focus in Shotokan is everything above the belt + the absolute lower part of the foot (for sweeps). Compare it to a face punch suddenly being thrown in a Kyokushin match.


If you're training 100% sport, with no self defense application, then fine. Otherwise, the problem is not what you describe. The problem is that you don't know how to defend your groin.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I should elaborate that my school does sport Karate,


Sport is only the path. Combat should be the goal.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sport is only the path. Combat should be the goal.


Meh. There's nothing wrong with sport for sports sake. But you have to be honest with yourself about what you're doing. If you're training purely for sport, your effectiveness in a self defense situation will be better than someone completely untrained, but not as good as someone who trains for self defense.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 16, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Meh. There's nothing wrong with sport for sports sake. But you have to be honest with yourself about what you're doing. If you're training purely for sport, your effectiveness in a self defense situation will be better than someone completely untrained, but not as good as someone who trains for self defense.


I actually have to agree with you here, especially as a former Tang Soo Do practitioner (which is of course a much more self-defense oriented art in many ways). But should sport and self-defense training not be separate, not to mention have much different ways of training?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I actually have to agree with you here, especially as a former Tang Soo Do practitioner (which is of course a much more self-defense oriented art in many ways). But should sport and self-defense training not be separate, not to mention have much different ways of training?


I don't think so, no. Because they're not all that different. I can teach a student to use a throw to put someone on the ground, or cause injury. Same throw, slightly different applications. I can teach them kick a certain way to make it difficult to stay on your feet, or to damage the knee. Same strike, different applications.
And in either case, I'd be sure they learned how to protect their groin.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I should elaborate that my school does sport Karate, aka what you see in the Olympics. And to my knowledge, most fighting sports do not permit groin kicks during sparring. In fact, I believe that such a technique is severely discouraged in most dojos.


For me, sport or defense, it wouldn't make a difference.  Getting kick in the groin happens with sports martial arts as well.  Seem like it would be a good idea to learn how do techniques and defense in a way that doesn't get your groin kicked.  Even if you aren't ready for the kick, your stance should offer some protection.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> And in either case, I'd be sure they learned how to protect their groin.


could you imagine someone saying that they don't train on making a proper fist because it's just "sports martial arts".  I've heard my teachers say many times things like "Your feet are too far apart, someone is going to kick you in the groin."

I could see this coming a mile away, simply by his stance.





If I had to bet money.  The reason he gets kick in the groin so much is because of how he's delivering his kicks.  Some people catch kicks with there face. Other like to catch it with their groin.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 16, 2021)

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

"Don't do that."


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> There's nothing wrong with sport for sports sake.


Why does one want to stay in sport forever? In a Judo forum, when I suggested Judo guys should train no-Gi, Everybody was mad at me.

I have no issue to see a 20 years old who is interested in sport. That person is using sport to develop certain MA skill. I have issue to see an old person who is still interested in sport (such as old people doing Taiji push hand).






After I have involved in Sanda, I'm just not interested to treat Chinese wrestling as a sport. I don't mind to train sport when I was young. I just don't want to continue in sport when I get older.

You just can't stay in elementary school forever and refuse to graduate.


----------



## jmf552 (Oct 16, 2021)

I'd give the lower belt one admonition not to do that anymore. Next time, I'd give him a taste of his own medicine. Nothing like painful experience to increase awareness.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 16, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I should elaborate that my school does sport Karate, aka what you see in the Olympics. And to my knowledge, most fighting sports do not permit groin kicks during sparring. In fact, I believe that such a technique is severely discouraged in most dojos.


This is what differentiates traditional Okinawan karate from what is widely seen in today's sport oriented karate.  Not only in the limitation of techniques, but in the apparent loss of the concept of controlled focus which allows for stopping the strike at "kiss" contact.  This lack of mastery over one's technique has maybe contributed to the rules limiting certain strikes.

Forty or fifty years ago when targeting the groin was OK there were _very_ few injuries to that area. This was because the students were taught control as part of their training which allowed them to choose where to stop the strike, whether an inch away from the body, or an inch into the body. Those who demonstrated a lack of this skill were penalized. A high level of skill was expected at the black belt level then.  Perhaps, too, there was an unwritten "guy" rule to respect each others "valuables."


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 17, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I'm basically terrified


I think I found your problem.

Don't do that.


----------



## seasoned (Oct 17, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> This is what differentiates traditional Okinawan karate from what is widely seen in today's sport oriented karate.  Not only in the limitation of techniques, but in the apparent loss of the concept of controlled focus which allows for stopping the strike at "kiss" contact.  This lack of mastery over one's technique has maybe contributed to the rules limiting certain strikes.
> 
> Forty or fifty years ago when targeting the groin was OK there were _very_ few injuries to that area. This was because the students were taught control as part of their training which allowed them to choose where to stop the strike, whether an inch away from the body, or an inch into the body. Those who demonstrated a lack of this skill were penalized. A high level of skill was expected at the black belt level then.  Perhaps, too, there was an unwritten "guy" rule to respect each others "valuables."


Great point, it was never a pulling of the technique but a full powered strike with distance control. The 60s dojo didn't use protective gear...


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 17, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> This is honestly what I needed to hear, i.e. whether or not this was a good part of training or an issue that needed to be fixed. I'll try to work with this from now on and basically treat lower belts as if they're Muay Thai champions. (not being sarcastic)



To assist get yourself some shin guards and also wear those for sparring. 
It still hurts, wen you use your shin to block their kick versus your knee.

You did not mention you thought it was intentional, as I have seen this before as well. 
A lower belt just doing it because it hurts others and they "Win" and feel better. 
If this is the case, at all , then talk to an instructor so they can talk to the student. 

I know you didn't ask about this in particular, I just offer it up as some experience I have had and also to talk to people.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm trying to figure how the knee gets dislocated when getting kicked in the groin.


You have to kick _really hard_.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sport is only the path. Combat should be the goal.


Only if that's what the individual wants. Neither you nor I get to decide the goals for someone else.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I actually have to agree with you here, especially as a former Tang Soo Do practitioner (which is of course a much more self-defense oriented art in many ways). But should sport and self-defense training not be separate, not to mention have much different ways of training?


Not necessarily. Some sport training is a good path to self-defense effectiveness, even where the ruleset used may create some holes from a self-defense perspective. But many of the same training methods work for both.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why does one want to stay in sport forever?


Do you suggest soccer players should be training for self-defense? Suggesting that people somehow aren't allowed to train sport for sports' sake is just utter nonsense.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Oct 17, 2021)

I recommend you to wear your groin cup and don’t expect lower belt to be flexible. Just tell them to kick you above the belt like in the stomach so the next time they wouldn’t hit ya in the groin


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Oct 17, 2021)

I recommend you to wear your groin cup and don’t expect lower belt to be flexible. Just tell them to kick you above the belt like in the stomach so the next time they wouldn’t  hit ya in the groin


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 17, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> To assist get yourself some shin guards and also wear those for sparring.
> It still hurts, wen you use your shin to block their kick versus your knee.
> 
> You did not mention you thought it was intentional, as I have seen this before as well.
> ...


Ah, no, there is a misunderstanding; it is 100% of the time a complete accident, and last time it happened we were very understanding with each other. I attend a very high class dojo where any malicious contact would basically never go.

I suspect the problem here is that lower belts want to "test out" a wide array of techniques when sparring, rather than just throwing a reliable technique that they're comfortable with. I notice plenty of times, a fresh white or yellow belt will attempt something like a spinning back kick or tornado kick without really knowing how to correctly/quickly throw it, and it becomes clear that they're doing this to either impress the sensei or just experiment with new stuff. It's almost as if they have "run out" of techniques to throw 30 seconds into a match and they feel obligated to mix things up, if that makes sense.

Keep in mind that* I am in no way denouncing* lower belts nor their curiosities, nor am I upset at them in any way; many these individuals are new to fighting and want to play around with new techniques, even if they aren't quite ready for them yet. In my case, this usually presents itself in the form of kicks that end up inadvertently juicing my jewels.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Ah, no, there is a misunderstanding; it is 100% of the time a complete accident, and last time it happened we were very understanding with each other. I attend a very high class dojo where any malicious contact would basically never go.
> 
> I suspect the problem here is that lower belts want to "test out" a wide array of techniques when sparring, rather than just throwing a reliable technique that they're comfortable with. I notice plenty of times, a fresh white or yellow belt will attempt something like a spinning back kick or tornado kick without really knowing how to correctly/quickly throw it, and it becomes clear that they're doing this to either impress the sensei or just experiment with new stuff. It's almost as if they have "run out" of techniques to throw 30 seconds into a match and they feel obligated to mix things up, if that makes sense.
> 
> Keep in mind that* I am in no way denouncing* lower belts nor their curiosities, nor am I upset at them in any way; many these individuals are new to fighting and want to play around with new techniques, even if they aren't quite ready for them yet. In my case, this usually presents itself in the form of kicks that end up inadvertently juicing my jewels.


I'm curious - are the white belts being taught spinning back kicks and tornado kicks?


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 17, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious - are the white belts being taught spinning back kicks and tornado kicks?


Yes. We don't hold back teaching advanced stuff to new people in our dojo (I have seen a white belt kid do Unsu with the rest of us).


----------



## Buka (Oct 17, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I should elaborate that my school does sport Karate, aka what you see in the Olympics. And to my knowledge, most fighting sports do not permit groin kicks during sparring. In fact, I believe that such a technique is severely discouraged in most dojos.


I've always allowed groin kicking. And we were kickers. The reason I allowed it is - that way you don't get nonchalant about protecting your groin. Same reason we allow face contact.


----------



## mograph (Oct 17, 2021)

It sounds like aside from leaving the dojo, your only option is to guard your groin. 

If you face a lower rank, and the odds favor their nailing your groin, then why not protect it with blocks? It seems to me that doing so could only enrich your training, even though the rules of your sport prohibit groin kicks.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Yes. We don't hold back teaching advanced stuff to new people in our dojo (I have seen a white belt kid do Unsu with the rest of us).


Those with more kicking experience may have a different take, but that seems counterproductive to me. They should be focused on building solid foundational techniques, not trying to figure out these difficult and complex techniques.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 17, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Those with more kicking experience may have a different take, but that seems counterproductive to me. They should be focused on building solid foundational techniques, not trying to figure out these difficult and complex techniques.


I like to bite the bullet with this issue and lean in favor of teaching interesting things to new people. You can only do Taikyoku Shodan so many times before you become sick of it.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious - are the white belts being taught spinning back kicks and tornado kicks?


For us, 'taught' would be a strong word. Often beginners may be paired with higher belts to hold targets and allowed to go through the motion of advanced kicks but they are not heavily critiqued on their skill level. Instead more attention is given to them on techniques specific to their belt level. Technique and safety are high priorities and sometimes we will just set folks down if they are really struggling or taking chances on a higher level kick.


----------



## DTACTUSA Larry (Oct 17, 2021)

*Learn to defend against all techniques, not just the ones that are "legal" in your system. ( ...and wear a cup)
The bad guys don't play by your "rules".*


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2021)

mograph said:


> to guard your groin.


Agree!

It makes no sense that if you train how to guard your head, but you don't train how to guard your groin.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2021)

Larry Sloan said:


> *The bad guys don't play by your "rules".*


If the OP only cares about "sport", In the world of "sport", there exist no bad guys.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Do you suggest soccer players should be training for self-defense? Suggesting that people somehow aren't allowed to train sport for sports' sake is just utter nonsense.


The soccer players try to send ball into the gate. The MA guys try to defeat their opponents. There is a big difference there.

A: I train MA for sport.
B: Do you train power generation?
A: I do.
B: If in your sport, the moment that you touch your opponent, you win, why do you still need to train power generation for?
A: ...


----------



## drop bear (Oct 17, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Those with more kicking experience may have a different take, but that seems counterproductive to me. They should be focused on building solid foundational techniques, not trying to figure out these difficult and complex techniques.



It is solid foundations.






This is a pretty short breakdown. But all of those things you need to get right to do the tornado kick. You kind of need to get right anyway. 

Except you might be able to fake or short cut those elements in simpler kicks.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 17, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The soccer players try to send ball into the gate. The MA guys try to defeat their opponents. There is a big difference there.
> 
> A: I train MA for sport.
> B: Do you train power generation?
> ...



It doesn't matter. 

Op is training for sport. And as part of that training is getting kicked in the nuts.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 18, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why does one want to stay in sport forever?


Who cares? I don't get to tell people what their goals should be. Neither do you.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Who cares? I don't get to tell people what their goals should be. Neither do you.


I'm just asking/suggesting. I'm not telling.

A: Why do you train MA for sport?
B: I like to train MA as sport because ...
A: There is another choice and that is ... My opinion is for information only.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It doesn't matter.
> 
> Op is training for sport. And as part of that training is getting kicked in the nuts.



Sorry lost my train of though. 

So regardless what the goal is. Being kicked in the nuts is probably best avoided. 

It isn't a street sport thing.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Oct 18, 2021)

As many people have already said, wearing a cup is your first defence against groin strikes.   Situational awareness is your second.  If this is happening against lower ranked belts consistently, there is a lesson to be learned here:  

1)  Do you stop, admonish and restart again.
2)  Do you stop, provide feedback and restart again.
3)  Do you continue and return the favour, discussing the outcome after the round is completed.
4)  Do you continue but protect the area overtly.  

Lower belts rarely have control and can also have an abundance of enthusiasm to throw new techniques.   How you respond when getting kicked will say more about you and your ideas on the art as an instructor.   No wrong answers here as different students respond to different approaches but the quest for improving your own karate never ends if you can get past the 'problem' of getting hit in the groin.  

As you said in Kyokushin face punching is prohibited but it happens all the time with lower ranks.   They get nervous and panicky when pressed so they lash out to stop their opponent.   I've come to raise my guard against lower belts for just this reason and you can see when they are about to start raising their strikes higher.   Usually there is also someone refereeing the match and you often hear them tell the lower belt to lower their punches during sparring.   They can also stop the match to let them know that punches are getting too close to the face.   Lastly, the higher belt can 'send' a message of their own to make sure the attention of the lower belt is kept in the appropriate areas.   As a higher rank they should be able to defend themselves and keep their opponent 'occupied' until the match is over.  In all cases, a chat at the end with the lower rank is the best way to help them improve their control.

Good luck


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 18, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> As many people have already said, wearing a cup is your first defence against groin strikes.   Situational awareness is your second.  If this is happening against lower ranked belts consistently, there is a lesson to be learned here:
> 
> 1)  Do you stop, admonish and restart again.
> 2)  Do you stop, provide feedback and restart again.
> ...


I usually stop and provide feedback, usually in the form of a friendly yet firm "keep it above the belt, please." At this point, I think my best course of action would be to continue doing this and just treat lower belts like ballkicking machines, keeping my guard appropriately low.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I like to bite the bullet with this issue and lean in favor of teaching interesting things to new people. You can only do Taikyoku Shodan so many times before you become sick of it.


It should be about what works best in teaching. It has been my experience that people attempting to learn complex techniques with no foundation take longer to develop skill at those techniques, because they develop so many bad habits.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The soccer players try to send ball into the gate. The MA guys try to defeat their opponents. There is a big difference there.
> 
> A: I train MA for sport.
> B: Do you train power generation?
> ...


Actually, the soccer players are also trying to defeat their opponents.

And if someone is actually training only for a sport ruleset where power is meaningless, they'd be better served not training it, unless perhaps training it improves control (so they don't accidentally strike too hard in competition).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It is solid foundations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you saying a tornado kick is foundational? Or that it requires good foundations?


----------



## CB Jones (Oct 18, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.



Block it...that simple.

Where my son trains and competes the groin is a legal target.  You should try and learn how to protect it instead of relying on your opponent


----------



## Blindside (Oct 18, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.



Uh, learn to not get kicked in the groin.  If you were leaving your face open I would tell you to learn to not get hit in the face, learn to move it or block incoming blows, why is it a giant jump for you to learn to do the same thing with a groin kick?  The first rule of boxing (and should be for all martial arts) is "protect yourself at all times."  Learn to protect yourself, that is why you do karate right?


----------



## drop bear (Oct 18, 2021)

And by the way get a good cup. I use one of those extra padded boxing ones.


----------



## Blindside (Oct 18, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> Admittedly no, as I actually received a groin injury from a cup at one point (due to sliding out of place). I'm basically terrified to even put one on now.
> 
> However, this isn't just the groin; I've taken inadvertent strikes to the knee as well (low kicks aren't permitted in my style). Basically my entire lower body has seen countless, avoidable injuries due to this.



So to avoid future and apparently repetitive future injury you are avoiding low percentage injuries from your protective gear?  Fear isn't rational but you aren't being rational.  I have never seen a karate competition that doesn't require a cup, do yours?

Injuries or little owies?  There is a difference between hurt and injured.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 18, 2021)

Blindside said:


> So to avoid future and apparently repetitive future injury you are avoiding low percentage injuries from your protective gear?  Fear isn't rational but you aren't being rational.  I have never seen a karate competition that doesn't require a cup, do yours?
> 
> Injuries or little owies?  There is a difference between hurt and injured.


The injury-to-owie ratio is about 1:30 based on an absolutely wild estimate. Of course it's mostly just bumps and bruises (which I acknowledge are a necessary evil to make one stronger in the long run) but there have been plenty of actual injuries.


----------



## Tomg8 (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


It seems your students need more experience before sparring.


----------



## J. Pickard (Oct 19, 2021)

We have a very specific rule set when it comes to contact level in sparring; Never hit harder than you want to be hit, only go as hard as your opponent wants to go, if at anytime you feel unsafe for any reason step off the training floor and notify an instructor. 
On top of this we have contact levels (1-5 where a 1 is stopping a few inches away and a 5 is KO power and penetration) and you aren't allowed to go past the first level until you are about a year or more into training. This way if a newbie is trying to stop a kick/punch a few inches in front of you but they aren't very good yet it turns into a light tap. Otherwise they try to tap and make light contact but it turns into heavy contact. 
Doing it this way has allowed us to teach sparring to new students within the first week or two and reduce rates of injury. We haven't had a beginner cause an injury in over decade with this system in place, most injuries are from the more experienced people getting too comfortably with each other and try new crazy techniques they can't control yet.


----------



## kfman (Oct 19, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> We have a very specific rule set when it comes to contact level in sparring; Never hit harder than you want to be hit, only go as hard as your opponent wants to go, if at anytime you feel unsafe for any reason step off the training floor and notify an instructor.
> On top of this we have contact levels (1-5 where a 1 is stopping a few inches away and a 5 is KO power and penetration) and you aren't allowed to go past the first level until you are about a year or more into training. This way if a newbie is trying to stop a kick/punch a few inches in front of you but they aren't very good yet it turns into a light tap. Otherwise they try to tap and make light contact but it turns into heavy contact.
> Doing it this way has allowed us to teach sparring to new students within the first week or two and reduce rates of injury. We haven't had a beginner cause an injury in over decade with this system in place, most injuries are from the more experienced people getting too comfortably with each other and try new crazy techniques they can't control yet.


Block and change your stance.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


Block, also pivoting is a great way to avoid groin shots.


----------



## Jut (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


I keep reading, 'Wear a cup'. I'll ask, Do you intend wearing one in the street? If not, I'd go with the advise of Drop Bear, Buka and others pointing 1st to your stance. I don't know what style you are, but personally, I guard my lower gate with my shin using a knee-raise.
However, with all due respect.. you don't seem to be able to 'block' much of anything.  I teach 'cover' rather than traditional blocking so I'm not much help there. Sometimes a good practitioner ≠ a good teacher. Might be time to change schools?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> We have a very specific rule set when it comes to contact level in sparring; Never hit harder than you want to be hit, only go as hard as your opponent wants to go, if at anytime you feel unsafe for any reason step off the training floor and notify an instructor.
> On top of this we have contact levels (1-5 where a 1 is stopping a few inches away and a 5 is KO power and penetration) and you aren't allowed to go past the first level until you are about a year or more into training. This way if a newbie is trying to stop a kick/punch a few inches in front of you but they aren't very good yet it turns into a light tap. Otherwise they try to tap and make light contact but it turns into heavy contact.
> Doing it this way has allowed us to teach sparring to new students within the first week or two and reduce rates of injury. We haven't had a beginner cause an injury in over decade with this system in place, most injuries are from the more experienced people getting too comfortably with each other and try new crazy techniques they can't control yet.


I use a similar progression, though I move them into light contact a lot sooner than that. It's easy for me to gauge when, though, since my classes have always been small (usually <5), so they spend a lot of time sparring with me. Their first time stepping up to the next level is always with me, so I get to check out their ability to control the step-up.

One thing I do to reduce the chance folks get panicky and overreact is that they learn "defensive sparring" first. This is basically a zero-offense approach to controlling what you can. They get used to some light hits (most haven't had that since childhood), and learn not to feel overwhelmed when they can't get a shot in. They use movement and distancing to try to get back a little control.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2021)

Jut said:


> I keep reading, 'Wear a cup'. I'll ask, Do you intend wearing one in the street? If not, I'd go with the advise of Drop Bear, Buka and others pointing 1st to your stance. I don't know what style you are, but personally, I guard my lower gate with my shin using a knee-raise.
> However, with all due respect.. you don't seem to be able to 'block' much of anything.  I teach 'cover' rather than traditional blocking so I'm not much help there. Sometimes a good practitioner ≠ a good teacher. Might be time to change schools?


Should still probably wear one if there's any reasonable chance of getting groin-shot during training.


----------



## Jut (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I should elaborate that my school does sport Karate, aka what you see in the Olympics. And to my knowledge, most fighting sports do not permit groin kicks during sparring. In fact, I believe that such a technique is severely discouraged in most dojos.


I hear 2 things. *Sports* Karate.. "like in the _Olympics_" and, you wish there was a 'no nut kick' rule to fix the problem.   First, it appears you're making an excuse.. stating that your Karate is just 'sport karate', therefore, it's lacking somehow.  Quick story.. A young man, who was a dominant TKD fighter, worked next to my kwoon. He was fascinated with a technique called 'huen-sau', would stop by, and we'd go over its application. He had a good sabom [teacher] and although very young, he beat some very good fighters and qualified for the Olympics. 

It's interesting that, once there, the head Korean TKD coaches re-trained him on many things.. kicks specifically, that, according to him, made them more efficient and made groin cover more essential. The point is, Olympic, *sport *Karate isn't lacking groin protection. 
I would again suggest a different SiFu but I may have confused your wording of 'my school' with a MA school.. when perhaps you train in your High School?


----------



## auntlisa1103 (Oct 19, 2021)

I’ve practiced taekwondo for four years (just made Temporary Cho Dan, my school’s rank just before Cho Dan, but that celebration is beside the point, I’m just excited lol)

Anyway, I remember as a white belt, during free sparring practice, being shy to attack because I’m not an aggressive person and I was afraid of hurting someone. The black belts always told me, “I’m the black belt. If you hurt me, it’s MY fault because I didn’t block it.”

(I’m still not as aggressive as I should be, preferring to hang back and defend until I see an opening, but I’m better than I used to be.)

My advice mimics what others have said. Wear a cup, block better, and help them learn better. That’s part of your job as an upper belt—to help those coming behind to learn, because you once were where they are in their training. I’m guessing you accidentally kicked people in the groin and/or knees when you were at their level. And if they stay involved, someone behind them will get your payback for you LOL


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 19, 2021)

Get in so close to your opponent and position your body so that your opponent can't raise their leg to kick you in the groin
Get so far away that your opponents can't reach your groin with their kicks
Turn your body to an angle so that your groin can no longer be accessible to your opponents groin kicks
Use Muay Thai style (angled towards the kick) raised knee blocks
Step towards the kicker as they are kicking, so as to prevent their kicking leg becoming fully extended (called a jam or Jam Hit in Jun Fan Kickboxing / Jeet Kune Do).
Have a look at the different cups on the market, there are loads of different ones now, now that MMA and Muay Thai are so popular. Some are cushioned around the edges, and some are even made out of metal that probably could stop a bullet.... lol..


----------



## isshinryuronin (Oct 19, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> One thing I do to reduce the chance folks get panicky and overreact is that they learn "defensive sparring" first. This is basically a zero-offense approach to controlling what you can. They get used to some light hits (most haven't had that since childhood),


One of the things I do to get new students not used to body contact, and especially kids, is "de-sensitivity" training.  It's a lighter version of advanced sanchin training where the student is in a guard and I (using an open hand) make light contact with their arms, back, chest and thighs and do a little pushing around.  It's like play rough-housing.  I keep it fun so they don't take it too seriously.  This helps them handle the "flinch" response and gets them used to some stress and contact.  For kids, I let the parent know ahead of time for their approval - they are quite supportive.

The next step is to get pads on them and up the contact a notch.  I do not fully  agree with the practice I've seen in TKD where the kids spar fully padded with reckless abandon.  I grant that it's fun and develops aggressiveness, but it denies the need for defensive skills and can develop a false sense of safety when in a real fight.  There needs to be some balance and realism.


----------



## prophet224 (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I should elaborate that my school does sport Karate, aka what you see in the Olympics. And to my knowledge, most fighting sports do not permit groin kicks during sparring. In fact, I believe that such a technique is severely discouraged in most dojos.


Interesting. That is a very important differentiation. That said, I have to agree with most other folks have said - new people will often mess you up because they don’t know what they are doing, they do things that are unexpected, and they often don’t hit what they are trying to hit. Their bodies don’t work quite the right way sometimes and so their moves don’t always end up where it seems like they should.  

If you are doing sport karate you definitely need a cup since won’t be as much emphasis on proper protection of vulnerable areas.

That said, it is always a good thing to learn lessons like that while practicing and build good protective habits. Learn to turn your legs properly to accept a low kick or guard for a groin kick, or move.

Also have to agree with the previous comment that if you are working with lower belts that’s their time to learn more so than it is yours. Give them the time to think and set things up and perform moves correctly. That also gives you the opportunity to practice things like foot work, deflection, getting out of the way, etc.


----------



## mwebb (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


1. Wear a cup
2. Learn how to block
3. Learn how to move


----------



## nigebj (Oct 19, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you're training 100% sport, with no self defense application, then fine. Otherwise, the problem is not what you describe. The problem is that you don't know how to defend your groin.


I was about to post that sentiment, but it really is equally true for sport - just because something is not within the rules does not mean that you should not be protecting yourself from it. 

To my mind the OPs stance must be too open for this to be a recurring problem (groin) and reaction time too slow for other strikes. They should be anticipating and reading the opponent in a way to avoid such strikes.

While higher ranked and/or more experienced fighters might have speed on their side, generally a lower rank is likely to signal their intent (through eyes, shoulders, chambering or wind up) - all of which should be read and reacted to.


----------



## chodanbo (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


Wear a cup.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> The problem so much isn't low kicks as it as bad high kicks that end up becoming lowkicks halfway through the technique + the fact that low kicks are not allowed in our style and should not be thrown anyway. The focus in Shotokan is everything above the belt + the absolute lower part of the foot (for sweeps). Compare it to a face punch suddenly being thrown in a Kyokushin match.





ThatOneSyrian said:


> I suspect the problem here is that lower belts want to "test out" a wide array of techniques when sparring, rather than just throwing a reliable technique that they're comfortable with. I notice plenty of times, a fresh white or yellow belt will attempt something like a spinning back kick or tornado kick without really knowing how to correctly/quickly throw it, and it becomes clear that they're doing this to either impress the sensei or just experiment with new stuff.



Even if low kicks aren't allowed in your sparring style, they're still happening. So you need to practice defending against them.

You've identified the problem here - low belt students are trying to do kicks that are above their skill level to execute at the proper height, have poor control, and accidentally kick too low. So when you see them trying to do those kicks, take that as a warning sign to block or get out of the way.


----------



## Buka (Oct 19, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> One of the things I do to get new students not used to body contact, and especially kids, is "de-sensitivity" training.  It's a lighter version of advanced sanchin training where the student is in a guard and I (using an open hand) make light contact with their arms, back, chest and thighs and do a little pushing around.  It's like play rough-housing.  I keep it fun so they don't take it too seriously.  This helps them handle the "flinch" response and gets them used to some stress and contact.  For kids, I let the parent know ahead of time for their approval - they are quite supportive.
> 
> The next step is to get pads on them and up the contact a notch.  I do not fully  agree with the practice I've seen in TKD where the kids spar fully padded with reckless abandon.  I grant that it's fun and develops aggressiveness, but it denies the need for defensive skills and can develop a false sense of safety when in a real fight.  There needs to be some balance and realism.


Love this post.


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 19, 2021)

another solution.... 
kick them in the nuts before they kick you in the nuts... lol

another non-practical solution would be to break their leg before they kick you... (again, not really. joking)...

you could also try get behind them using evasive foot movements aikido / kendo style, and kick them in the but.....lol

get into grappling / close range and keep it there (grapple / throw instead of strike)... not acceptable for most styles of karate, unless you have a really open minded karate coach / training partner.. not for white belts generally, unless your doing some form of Vale Tudo / MMA off shoot mixed with karate

you could also stand on both of his feet.... although standing on someones foot can also be dangerous
have seen it done in sparing, including one time when a guy stood on the other guys foot before the other guy was about to do a step through rear kick, attempting to pivot on the front foot which was stepped on...

he had several of his smaller toes broken.. ouch! thankfully toes heal pretty quick
but just shows you.... simple moves work sometimes.... even if accidentally


----------



## pel1188 (Oct 19, 2021)

I drive an hour each way to my dojo and if I forgot a cup…I turn around and go home. There are other students I practice with who have done the same.  I’ve heard it said once “gentlemen if you aren’t wearing a cup, I can’t exactly feel bad for you as you made that choice”


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 19, 2021)

In Ed Parker's American Kenpo
Kicking to the groin is generally allowed, as well as kicking pretty much anywhere else.
Although generally recommended with control.

The older generation of Kenpo practitioners will however be more familiar with
old school bare knuckle and no or slim foot  / shin pads.

With varying level of control. especially in the dojo's or training halls that don't practice for competition,
but self defence, as training is supposed to help prepare you for real life encounters, it is in the dojo
we can experiment and screw up, without loss of life, outside the dojo, is where we have to make sure what we do works. what ever that may be...

Anyway
In the early 90s, things changed. Health and Safety became more of a focus,
and sets of elaborate protection equipment became more standards.

Although i think kicking to the groin is still permitted.
And in fact, one of the best techniques for self defence. So, getting good at such a technique is a worth while endeavour. perhaps even life saving.


----------



## Buka (Oct 19, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Block it...that simple.
> 
> Where my son trains and competes the groin is a legal target.  You should try and learn how to protect it instead of relying on your opponent


A guy who taught me a lot, a real lot, never used to wear a cup. He's what you would call "a pretty good kicker". Many years ago he was at a point tournament, he was doing a three round demo match with the guy who won the Grand Championship.

He was winning something like 23-7....when the guy threw a kick, not a particularly hard kick, just a kick. But it caught him just so. He was taken to the hospital and had to have a testicle removed. That man was Bill Superfoot Wallace. He never sparred or fought without a cup again. So if you ever meet him, ask his opinion on not wearing a cup. He speaks very candidly about it.

In any dojo I ran you wore a cup to class every day. And every few weeks there were cup checks. (And no, not what you're probably thinking, it was a sound check. Rap your knuckles on your cup.) If you were caught without one you spent the entire class, face down on the floor, doing pushups. The class was ninety minutes. You never forgot one again, I'll tell you that.

You also always had to have a mouth piece in your bag with all your fighting gear, every night, not just for sparring. It was your responsibility, not ours. Our responsibility was to make sure you knew yours.

As to the point someone made about "you don't wear a cup in the street" - school, college, any training, and your parents prepare you for life (hopefully). But as you go through life you won't have your school books with you, or your parents, or your cup, you'll just have your training. All those other things are just part of the preparation.

I have a great photo of Linda Denley from Texas, one of the best woman fighters I've ever trained with. I asked her if she could make it a point to show a particular visiting black belt why he should wear a cup. She told me to "stand by with your camera". So I did.

She made her point with out hurting him. It's a cool photo, I'll dig it up.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Oct 19, 2021)

pel1188 said:


> I drive an hour each way to my dojo and if I forgot a cup…I turn around and go home. There are other students I practice with who have done the same.  I’ve heard it said once “gentlemen if you aren’t wearing a cup, I can’t exactly feel bad for you as you made that choice”


On the few days I forget it are the few days I get hit in the groin, I'd be going back too.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 19, 2021)

In a groin kick not allowed tournament, if your opponent uses his groin to block your kick, what can you do?

This is the problem for "sport". When striking is not allowed, the non-striking MA can move into some unrealistic direction.

You spend you entire life to be good in this. Some 20 years old just punch on the back of your head and knock you out. What's the true value of your training - expose your head and assume that nobody will punch your head (or expose your groin and assume nobody will kick your groin)?


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 19, 2021)

Jut said:


> I hear 2 things. *Sports* Karate.. "like in the _Olympics_" and, you wish there was a 'no nut kick' rule to fix the problem.   First, it appears you're making an excuse.. stating that your Karate is just 'sport karate', therefore, it's lacking somehow.  Quick story.. A young man, who was a dominant TKD fighter, worked next to my kwoon. He was fascinated with a technique called 'huen-sau', would stop by, and we'd go over its application. He had a good sabom [teacher] and although very young, he beat some very good fighters and qualified for the Olympics.
> 
> It's interesting that, once there, the head Korean TKD coaches re-trained him on many things.. kicks specifically, that, according to him, made them more efficient and made groin cover more essential. The point is, Olympic, *sport *Karate isn't lacking groin protection.
> I would again suggest a different SiFu but I may have confused your wording of 'my school' with a MA school.. when perhaps you train in your High School?


I finished high school precisely 6 years ago and WKF rules specifically mention that groin contact is not allowed.


----------



## Trondyne (Oct 19, 2021)

If you're getting kicked in the groin by anyone with consistency I'd look at my lack of defense in that area...and why it's such an easy target...


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 19, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> I finished high school precisely 6 years ago and WKF rules specifically mention that groin contact is not allowed.


When head contact is not allowed in some Karate tournament, what will you do if your opponent uses his head to block your punch?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2021)

Jut said:


> I keep reading, 'Wear a cup'. I'll ask, Do you intend wearing one in the street?


You keep hearing this because it's a good advice.  Even professional boxers were cuts.  There's nothing wrong with safety equipment in sparring to reduce harm.  It doesn't subtract from being able to fight without one.  When I spar I wear a cup, work my stances and still guard and attack  as if I'm not wearing a cup.   The cup should never be used as a crutch where the person thinks that because they have a cup own that they don't need to defend those areas.

Cup on or off, I still defend against strikes towards my groin and still use my stances in a way that reduces the risks of being kicked in the groin.   Unless a person has a fetish for the bruising.  Wearing a cup is approved in many contact sports or in sports where objects are to strike a person in the groin.

The only exceptions to not wearing a cup is this or a possible ruptured testicle.  If you have been kicked in the groin on a consistent basis where the count is in the 40's then one of these things will be one's reality lol.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When head contact is not allowed in some Karate tournament, what will you do if your opponent uses his head to block your punch?


I would work on my aim.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 20, 2021)

Jut said:


> I keep reading, 'Wear a cup'. I'll ask, Do you intend wearing one in the street? If not, I'd go with the advise of Drop Bear, Buka and others pointing 1st to your stance. I don't know what style you are, but personally, I guard my lower gate with my shin using a knee-raise.
> However, with all due respect.. you don't seem to be able to 'block' much of anything.  I teach 'cover' rather than traditional blocking so I'm not much help there. Sometimes a good practitioner ≠ a good teacher. Might be time to change schools?


I don't wear any other protective gear walking down the street. That doesn't mean I am going to spar without it. We did no-gear sparring back in the 60's and 70's. It's nice to see less injuries.


----------



## Buka (Oct 20, 2021)

No need for a cup? It's the practitioner's body, that practitioner should do what they think best.

No need for a mouthpiece either? Or seatbelts? Or fire extinguishers? Or smoke detectors? Or life boats? Or a  
to-go pack? Or an emergency fund? Or a plan  fricken B?

Okay, I guess, it's a free country, and thank God for that.

I can't believe I got sucked in to a conversation about a man who doesn't wear a cup when he's training Martial Arts fighting.

My bad.


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 20, 2021)

Buka said:


> A guy who taught me a lot, a real lot, never used to wear a cup. He's what you would call "a pretty good kicker". Many years ago he was at a point tournament, he was doing a three round demo match with the guy who won the Grand Championship.
> 
> He was winning something like 23-7....when the guy threw a kick, not a particularly hard kick, just a kick. But it caught him just so. He was taken to the hospital and had to have a testicle removed. That man was Bill Superfoot Wallace. He never sparred or fought without a cup again. So if you ever meet him, ask his opinion on not wearing a cup. He speaks very candidly about it.
> 
> ...


Awesome, Bill Wallace is up there at the top when it comes to American Kickboxing
like Benny the Jet, who was my favourite, because he was just more flashy but also super skilled.
Interesting how you are the reason why Bill Wallace now wears a cup... lol


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 20, 2021)

Incidentally, haven done kenpo for a few years, when i did jiu jitsu and judo i wore a cup.
Many other jiu jitsu guys did, especially ones who were more into Vale Tudo and MMA.

Some of the Judo guys were funny about it, however, i thought it was important
not only from a safety perspective but also from a hygiene and sexual health perspective.

Apparently in Japan, it is not normal to wear a cup.
However, I was thinking this was a bit nuts, because Judo in essence from trad battle field Ju Jutsu,
and i may be more observant than some, but if people hadn't noticed

Samurai on the battle field wore more than just a cup. The techniques of Judo were originally from Ju Jutsu styles that were intended to be used against Samurai wearing full armour.

I also suffer from hypogonadism (probably developed from being kicked in the nuts),
so i figure i got to look after what i have left. What difference it makes to your training partner is minimal.
apart from stopping the more sneaky Judo and jiu jitsu guys "accidentally" dropping their knee in the wrong place on a take down, or a more than unorthodox version of passing the guard...

Yep.  Know from experience. Not a sensation that i enjoy. So. wear a cup. I do.
Also, in case i am right about the cause of my hypogonadism. 
Any young guys should also invest in a cup.

In fact, should be on your buy list before buying a gi!


----------



## krowe (Oct 20, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


Oh god lol I know what thats like. Perhaps using a different stance would help or a different step technique for moving in that makes the angle harder for accidental balltaps. When moving in, to guard against roundhouse kicks I will sometimes drive in with powerful steps. This, done cleanly with force is like slicing through water- timing is important. It usually cuts the angle of the opponents kick and makes the damage from a roundhouse negligable while closing distance, then they have to tangle with you at close range. If you are beginning to develop concious concern for balltaps it is likely effecting your stance. The mind impacts the stability of the body and may make you unconciously retreat ever so slightly in ways you normally would not or shift your balance in preperation to retreat. This would increase the likelyhood of getting kicked in the balls since you would he on your back foot. A good way to avoid a roundhouse is to keep driving in and do close-combat so that they cannot use kicks or sweep it after reading the pattern. Kicks are mid and long range usually. If they lack flexibility it will be much easier to diffuse the power of their kick and break their stance before they can perform the full movement or by driving in with your stance and footwork. So increasing the pressure and being concious of your stance and weight distribution would likely help you.


----------



## Doc (Oct 20, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> (Karate practitioner here)
> Just like the title says: whenever I spar with a higher belt, I get nicely nailed in the face or stomach or some other above-the-belt target as intended, but whenever I spar a lower belt, they aim roundhouse kicks at my abdomen but end up kicking my crotch because of inflexibility and poor aim. This is very painful and the fear of it happening basically allows them to dominate me. It has reached a point where I'm 10x more afraid to spar them than I am the higher belts in my class.
> 
> What is my best course of action here? I love fighting but I don't love getting kicked in the nuts.


They have this new thing that some of the oldtimers teach. It's called "blocks." I've also seen some people who move and shift sides but I'd try the blocks first. One thing is for sure, it keeps you motivated, especially if you don't wear a cup all the time.


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 20, 2021)

one creative solution would be to make your own groin guard out of conker shells
so that when any of the nut kickers decide to target your nuts
they will get a nasty surprise ....ouch....  lol


----------



## Buka (Oct 20, 2021)

Not me. The 


Jusroc said:


> Awesome, Bill Wallace is up there at the top when it comes to American Kickboxing
> like Benny the Jet, who was my favourite, because he was just more flashy but also super skilled.
> Interesting how you are the reason why Bill Wallace now wears a cup... lol


Not me, the guy he was doing the demo match with.


----------



## CB Jones (Oct 20, 2021)

Block and counter the groin kicks with...........groin kicks


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 20, 2021)

Buka said:


> No need for a cup? It's the practitioner's body, that practitioner should do what they think best.
> 
> No need for a mouthpiece either? Or seatbelts? Or fire extinguishers? Or smoke detectors? Or life boats? Or a
> to-go pack? Or an emergency fund? Or a plan  fricken B?
> ...


shall a boxer wear shinguards?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 20, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> shall a boxer wear shinguards?


That's a bad comparison. There's much less chance that a boxer will get hit in the shin, then there is that a karateka will get hit in the groin, regardless of the rules. 
There's also less damage that's likely to happen from an accidental shin clash in a boxing match, then there is from a groin kick in a karate match.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's a bad comparison. There's much less chance that a boxer will get hit in the shin, then there is that a karateka will get hit in the groin, regardless of the rules.
> There's also less damage that's likely to happen from an accidental shin clash in a boxing match, then there is from a groin kick in a karate match.


you make a valid point that a cup is required...but i dont seem to get any groin kicks at all from higher belts. although a cup is a good thing to have, isnt 50% of the issue still the fault of a lower belt's poor aim/flexibility?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 20, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> you make a valid point that a cup is required...but i dont seem to get any groin kicks at all from higher belts. although a cup is a good thing to have, isnt 50% of the issue still the fault of a lower belt's poor aim/flexibility?


If you mean that 50% of the issue is that beginners aren't as good as non-beginners, then yes. Unfortunately, the answer for them is to either limit sparring with them until they're better, or help them become better and accept that they'll have poor aim/flexibility. 

As a non-beginner, assuming you plan to continue sparring with them, you have to account for that if you don't want the pain that comes from those kicks.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's a bad comparison. There's much less chance that a boxer will get hit in the shin, then there is that a karateka will get hit in the groin, regardless of the rules.
> There's also less damage that's likely to happen from an accidental shin clash in a boxing match, then there is from a groin kick in a karate match.


Boxers get hit in the groin and they wear cups.


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 20, 2021)

Buka said:


> Not me. The
> 
> Not me, the guy he was doing the demo match with.


oh, ok.Poor Mr Wallace
I heard he had a few injuries in his time. I remember reading a couple of his books when i was a kid (during the 80s) and at the time, he taught me how to kick high in a different way to they way they teach at the dojo i went to (the raise the knee high and angle the leg down at oblique angles method). 

I remember reading his book, practising at home in between training sessions, and my instructor being amazed at how much better my kicking had got, he commented that someone must have been practising at home.... lol that, and Bill Wallace's secret method...  books can be great for that, no substitute for real life training but some times, real secrets can be revealed... 

I learnt from the first book by Bill Wallace that I read that Bill was originally a Judo intentional player,
however had to change to kickboxing because he sustained a major injury to his right leg which caused major damage to his ligaments in his right leg (which made him vulnerable in Judo, as the legs do get a hammering in standing randori and tachi waza).

It explains why Bill Wallace used to kick people's asses with the same foot all the time, and he rarely used his right foot to kick.


----------



## Jut (Oct 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You keep hearing this because it's a good advice.  Even professional boxers were cuts.  There's nothing wrong with safety equipment in sparring to reduce harm.  It doesn't subtract from being able to fight without one.  When I spar I wear a cup, work my stances and still guard and attack  as if I'm not wearing a cup.   The cup should never be used as a crutch where the person thinks that because they have a cup own that they don't need to defend those areas.
> 
> Cup on or off, I still defend against strikes towards my groin and still use my stances in a way that reduces the risks of being kicked in the groin.   Unless a person has a fetish for the bruising.  Wearing a cup is approved in many contact sports or in sports where objects are to strike a person in the groin.
> 
> The only exceptions to not wearing a cup is this or a possible ruptured testicle.  If you have been kicked in the groin on a consistent basis where the count is in the 40's then one of these things will be one's reality lol.


So let me clear something up.. first, I never said wearing a cup is wrong or that safety equipment is wrong. I'm not sure how that morphed from what _my _comment was but it's being repeated. In those days before litigation not allot of fighters did, as has been mentioned by Bill Wallace's experience. I don't believe there's anyone normal who, after they lost a testicle that way, would refuse to wear a cup.
Like Bill, when his bag was full, and many others in those days, I chose not to wear one. Because my crotch became 'open season' so to speak, I became very adept at keeping everything safe and even developed a couple effective counter techniques.

 You say, 'it doesn't subtract from being able to fight without one. Maybe.. but not everyone's the same. I've seen more than one person ignore the seriousness of protecting this area _because _they wore a cup. Anyway.. thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If you mean that 50% of the issue is that beginners aren't as good as non-beginners, then yes. Unfortunately, the answer for them is to either limit sparring with them until they're better, or help them become better and accept that they'll have poor aim/flexibility.
> 
> As a non-beginner, assuming you plan to continue sparring with them, you have to account for that if you don't want the pain that comes from those kicks.


Personally, I think fighting untrained fighters can be more exciting 
as in some cases, you really don't know what to expect
which is in many ways is much more like a real life attack

I guess that is more from a person who trains for self defence than a sport competitor.
The problem with sport, is that people can get a false sense of security in the world
that they and their buddies have created for themselves

and when they encounter a wide ball like a newbie or someone from a different style
some people can get caught out and ego's do get bruised (especially when you "accidentally" get hit by a beginner and you have a much higher belt, happens to every one i think, not everyone would admit to it though.,..lol)

I remember when i was 16, i had been doing karate since i was 11, and was fairly competent and some time helped teach people as an assistant instructor, which i best did during free fighting.

I remember I used to let beginners get shots in intentionally in order to build their confidence,
and usually beginners never hit me that hard. so i could wear the damage easy enough.

Comically though
There was this one time however, that I was doing this "help the white belt build confidence while letting him hit you" thing, when i let this rather post upper class fellow who turned up to the dojo, who was wearing a formal shirt and tartan bow tie (of all things) for training (which in hindsight was completely inappropriate).

I remember allowing him to go for a light shot at my head, not thinking that he would use full force (as generally at this level everything was light contact, semi contact at the most)...

I remember opening my guard and thinking "go on buddy, here is a clear shot for you" and
the beginner, in his ignorance, hit me with full force.... b... star..d

But.... taught me a lesson. not going let anyone have a free shot at my head again, not beginners, woman or even kids.. after all we all only have one noggin and gotta do our best to protect what sense we have left.

What a funny scene that episode was though. I can see the funny side. Alas, we allow life to teach us.
Life is the best teacher. Experience can not be replaced by anything. not yet at least.


----------



## Jusroc (Oct 20, 2021)

Just out of interest.

There is a known secret technique among some Muay Thai circles
where an individual can retract their 2 little fellas up inside their body.
which stops them from getting hit. I don't know this technique but have
one old school book on Muay Thai written by an old school Muay Thai
coach and fighter, mention this.

Also.
What i know about hypo-gonadism. in theory, it would be possible to get castrated
and still live a normal life (as what ever sexual orientation you choose to be... perhaps mix it up on different days?..) by taking the appropriate Hormone replacement therapy.

Some classic Muay Thai fighters may even opt for that.
There was the story of the Thai Muay Thai champ who had a sex change, only to go onto become a famous model and actress.
Parinya_Charoenphol

God hope anyone who insults this little woman. 
Good news for her however, as no box required.


----------



## Buka (Oct 20, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> shall a boxer wear shinguards?


Why on earth would he?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> you make a valid point that a cup is required...but i dont seem to get any groin kicks at all from higher belts. although a cup is a good thing to have, isnt 50% of the issue still the fault of a lower belt's poor aim/flexibility?


Kicks to the groin are perfect kicks, which is why I never correct students for doing so.  As long a the student can control the kick enough to prevent them from landing.  If it's a wild kick then I'm like you. They need to know how to aim which is just as important a control


Jut said:


> . I've seen more than one person ignore the seriousness of protecting this area _because _they wore a cup.


I've seen this in general with fighting equipment.  People wear fast and willingly take advantage of it as if it's armor so they don't bother to protect themselves because they know the equipment will. Boxing gloves are like this because they take up alot of space.  I've seen it with wrist wraps as well.

American football is another sport that has the same mindset.  I think the best minder when wearing gear is to mentally think it's not there so bad habits aren't firmed.  Plastic knives make me uncomfortable and I treat them like real knives that cut.   This helps me to keep my training from being lazy.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Kicks to the groin are perfect kicks, which is why I never correct students for doing so.


I taught my students to use a low roundhouse kick to the upper leg. They then slide their foot upward. You don't need much space to do a groin kick this way. Your foot can slide upward with just a little space.

It's so funny that if you spend all your life trying to develop a door guarding skill (such as a groin kick), but the sport rule won't allow you to train it, IMO, the sport is putting restriction on your personal development.

Why the groin kick is a great technique? You force your opponent to respond to it. You can then take advantage on his respond.

A groin kick followed by a face punch is MA basic 101.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 20, 2021)

Jut said:


> I keep reading, 'Wear a cup'. I'll ask, Do you intend wearing one in the street? ...



Actually, When I did Security and bounced I wore a cup. 
It helped. 
Many people were surprised.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2021)

Some teachers only teach illegal techniques used in sport to their advance students. It will be used in the "unfriendly challenge" during the ancient time. This is why the challenge is always risky.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 21, 2021)

Buka said:


> Why on earth would he?


Might be sparring noobs and keeps getting smashed in the shins.


----------



## Blindside (Oct 21, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> you make a valid point that a cup is required...but i dont seem to get any groin kicks at all from higher belts. although a cup is a good thing to have, isnt 50% of the issue still the fault of a lower belt's poor aim/flexibility?


Learn. To. Block. Your. Groin.  Students who are apparently worse than you are kicking you in a vital area.  You are responsible for you, protect yourself at all times.  So why aren't you blocking your groin?  Is your stance too open, is your guard too high?  What hole in your game is allowing newbies to hurt you?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> isnt 50% of the issue still the fault of a lower belt's poor aim/flexibility?


If poor aim/flexibility can make a technique that effective, we should all want to train how to be "poor aim/flexibility".

Something is wrong about this logic. What is it?


----------



## drop bear (Oct 21, 2021)

Maby op needs to go down the conditioning route.

You know build a callous.


----------



## _Simon_ (Oct 21, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Maby op needs to go down the conditioning route.
> 
> You know build a callous.



These guys had it down pat too


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 21, 2021)

Blindside said:


> Learn. To. Block. Your. Groin.  Students who are apparently worse than you are kicking you in a vital area.  You are responsible for you, protect yourself at all times.  So why aren't you blocking your groin?  Is your stance too open, is your guard too high?  What hole in your game is allowing newbies to hurt you?


the problem is that i block wherever the kick is aimed. put it this way: they throw a kick to the abdomen, i block to the abdomen, then suddenly it changes course at the very end of the technique and hits me in the groin. i have no idea how it even happens sometimes


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If poor aim/flexibility can make a technique that effective, we should all want to train how to be "poor aim/flexibility".
> 
> Something is wrong about this logic. What is it?


groin kicks are not hard to throw. they dont require aim nor flexibility. that's why they're so effective; you dont need much training or physical ability to pull them off.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> the problem is that i block wherever the kick is aimed. put it this way: they throw a kick to the abdomen, i block to the abdomen, then suddenly it changes course at the very end of the technique and hits me in the groin. i have no idea how it even happens sometimes


No, you block where you *think* the kick is going. Obviously, you're wrong.


----------



## Buka (Oct 21, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Might be sparring noobs and keeps getting smashed in the shins.


He was talking about boxers.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 21, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> the problem is that i block wherever the kick is aimed. put it this way: they throw a kick to the abdomen, i block to the abdomen, then suddenly it changes course at the very end of the technique and hits me in the groin. i have no idea how it even happens sometimes


You can't block everything.  Use your feet to move you out of range or off center.  As @drop bear stated leg checks also work,


----------



## drop bear (Oct 21, 2021)

Buka said:


> He was talking about boxers.



Yeah but it is the same as karate guys kicking people in the nuts. 

They shouldn't do it. But if they are doing it.....


----------



## mograph (Oct 21, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Maby op needs to go down the conditioning route.
> 
> You know build a callous.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> the problem is that i block wherever the kick is aimed.


Why don't you just raise your knee and use your shin bone to block that kick?


----------



## Buka (Oct 21, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but it is the same as karate guys kicking people in the nuts.
> 
> They shouldn't do it. But if they are doing it.....


Yeah, but boxers wear cups. Never saw a shin attack in boxing. Ear bites, sure, but I don't remember ever seeing a shin get kicked.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

Buka said:


> Yeah, but boxers wear cups. Never saw a shin attack in boxing. Ear bites, sure, but I don't remember ever seeing a shin get kicked.


But hey, if a boxer did get kicked in the shin and decided to wear shin guards because of it, that would be fine with me.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't you just raise your knee and use your shin bone to block that kick?


i was never taught to do this. good idea actually, thank you (not even sarcastic)


----------



## Buka (Oct 21, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> i was never taught to do this. good idea actually, thank you (not even sarcastic)


If you do do this, bend your toes up when you raise your leg. That causes the muscle along your shin (Tibialis) to flex, protects your shin a little bit.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2021)

Buka said:


> If you do do this, bend your toes up when you raise your leg. That causes the muscle along your shin (Tibialis) to flex, protects your shin a little bit.


Agree! After your leg block, the toes up

- forward posture can help to to counter back with a toes push kick (or heel kick.
- sideway posture can allow you to use your instep to lift up your opponent's kicking leg.

If you can use your leg block to set up your front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, crescent kick, ... that will be a good training.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't you just raise your knee and use your shin bone to block that kick?


Or take it a step further. Beginners tend to telegraph. I had a student who telegraphed his rear leg kicks about 20 minutes before throwing them. He no longer does. I'd spar with him, and I'd jam the kicks aggressively. With a front leg kick to his thigh. Not hard, pretty much all of the impact came from his forward momentum. But it worked.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 21, 2021)

Buka said:


> If you do do this, bend your toes up when you raise your leg. That causes the muscle along your shin (Tibialis) to flex, protects your shin a little bit.


I really miss the "informative" button sometimes....


----------



## Buka (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Or take it a step further. Beginners tend to telegraph. I had a student who telegraphed his rear leg kicks about 20 minutes before throwing them. He no longer does. I'd spar with him, and I'd jam the kicks aggressively. With a front leg kick to his thigh. Not hard, pretty much all of the impact came from his forward momentum. But it worked.


Made me laugh, the telegraph line.

And how so very Dirty doggish. 🤗


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> telegraphed his rear leg kicks ...


All rear leg kicks require body rotation that you may expose your center to your opponent. Boxers use a jab to set up a cross. IMO, it's better to use front leg kick to set up rear leg kick.

In another thread, someone asked the difference between the front leg side kick vs. the back leg side kick. After the body rotation, both kicks are the same. But in sparring, you try to avoid that "body rotation" that expose your center.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 21, 2021)

Buka said:


> If you do do this, bend your toes up when you raise your leg. That causes the muscle along your shin (Tibialis) to flex, protects your shin a little bit.



Do what is called a lazy check. Where you just twist your knee towards the kick. But keep both feet on the ground


----------



## Buka (Oct 21, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Do what is called a lazy check. Where you just twist your knee towards the kick. But keep both feet on the ground


I used to do some of those, too. I used to do a lot of things  not so much anymore.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> All rear leg kicks require body rotation that you may expose your center to your opponent. Boxers use a jab to set up a cross. IMO, it's better to use front leg kick to set up rear leg kick.
> 
> In another thread, someone asked the difference between the front leg side kick vs. the back leg side kick. After the body rotation, both kicks are the same. But in sparring, you try to avoid that "body rotation" that expose your center.


I would not say you 'show' rotation with a rear leg Front kick; at least you certainly should not. What a lot of people do is 'wind up' before any type of rear leg kick and give away their intent. 
One thing I would do after a bit learning about a partner or competitor is change my stance to mostly to completely open. This will really make them guess if a rear leg is coming and what kick it will be. 
I fully agree rear leg kicks are all about the setup. 

Timing is paramount in a rear leg kick. If the opponent is moving back or getting ready to spin rear legs are very effective. 

When you say 'body motion' are you saying a lot of upper body motion before the leg ever leaves the ground? If so I would say that is poor technique.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I would not say you 'show' rotation with a rear leg Front kick;


Let's define the centerline as a vertical line that comes out of the center of your chest. 

When you have right leg forward, your centerline may point to the NW direction. When you kick your 

- right leading leg, your centerline will remain pointing to NW.
 - left rear leg, your center line will end of pointing to NE. There is a short moment that your centerline will point to N. Your opponent may take advantage on that.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let's define the centerline as a vertical line that comes out of the center of your chest.
> 
> When you have right leg forward, your centerline may point to the NW direction. When you kick your
> 
> ...


That assumes they have time to take advantage of it (i.e. you telegraph) and that you don't know how to guard (i.e. the OP here). Those are pretty big assumptions...


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 21, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let's define the centerline as a vertical line that comes out of the center of your chest.
> 
> When you have right leg forward, your centerline may point to the NW direction. When you kick your
> 
> ...


I still say depends a lot on the kick and the choice of stance on the lead leg kick (this should always be the kickers choice). 
There are linear kicks and rotational kicks. A lead leg front kick or side kick will maintain the same body position (with minor variance at times). A lead leg roundhouse does not have to rotate very much if the person has good flexibility. 
A rear leg front kick or inside/outside crescent does does not have to change body position (relative to a compass). 
I agree with your NE position for roundhouse, side, hook, etc...


----------



## mograph (Oct 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I really miss the "informative" button sometimes....


Yeah, what remains are all emotions. (sigh)


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some teachers only teach illegal techniques used in sport to their advance students. It will be used in the "unfriendly challenge" during the ancient time.


There's a lesson I learned a long time ago. Many people make the mistake of thinking that because certain techniques are illegal in certain combat sports, that practitioners of those arts don't know how to use them. Often what it really means is that they know how to use the techniques in a way that the ref doesn't see them. (Or in other cases, they know how many times they can get away with using them before they get a penalty.) Big difference.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 22, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> you make a valid point that a cup is required...but i dont seem to get any groin kicks at all from higher belts. although a cup is a good thing to have, isnt 50% of the issue still the fault of a lower belt's poor aim/flexibility?





Blindside said:


> Learn. To. Block. Your. Groin.  Students who are apparently worse than you are kicking you in a vital area.  You are responsible for you, protect yourself at all times.  So why aren't you blocking your groin?  Is your stance too open, is your guard too high?  What hole in your game is allowing newbies to hurt you?


One reason I value sparring with beginners is because they lack control. The way I figure it, if an out of control newbie can _accidentally _hit me with a nut shot, head butt, elbow strike, eye poke, whatever, then someone in the street who was _trying _to hurt me could definitely have done the same. As the senior practitioner, I consider it my fault if they are able to accidentally hurt me.

That said, if the beginner I'm sparring with is being unsafe, I will offer them correction and guidance before I let them go off to spar another newbie who might not be so capable of defending themselves.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There's a lesson I learned a long time ago. Many people make the mistake of thinking that because certain techniques are illegal in certain combat sports, that practitioners of those arts don't know how to use them. Often what it really means is that they know how to use the techniques in a way that the ref doesn't see them. (Or in other cases, they know how many times they can get away with using them before they get a penalty.) Big difference.


The most common one is when A throws B, A intentionally drops his body on top of B (pretend that A loses balance). Someone drops his straight elbow joint on my heart area. It almost killed me that day.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If you're getting knees dislocated during training, that's a red flag to me that there's a lack of safety and control in the room.


sounds like he´s nothing in control.  I remember one such Dojo in Wado ryu where a brown belt was kicking beginners hard and enjoying it. He then met a guy who i spoke to before training who told me he had a black belt in something (can´t remember) he was kicking the crap out the Brown belt although he was starting in Wado Ryu as a white belt. The anger and frustration of the Brown belt was Gold! I know it´s the opposite to the OP but was funny.


----------



## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 22, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> sounds like he´s nothing in control.  I remember one such Dojo in Wado ryu where a brown belt was kicking beginners hard and enjoying it. He then met a guy who i spoke to before training who told me he had a black belt in something (can´t remember) he was kicking the crap out the Brown belt although he was starting in Wado Ryu as a white belt. The anger and frustration of the Brown belt was Gold! I know it´s the opposite to the OP but was funny.


*light bulb sound*
That's it! Whenever I spar lower belts, I dial it back a notch to account for their lack of experience (and subconsciously "let" them hit me from time to time to boost their confidence). This naturally causes me to move slower and lower my defenses. On the contrary, fighting a lightning-fast 2nd dan with a couple WKF gold medals under his belt sorta shifts my body into overdrive and become more alert/protective.
I wish I would have thought of this sooner. Thanks, Batman.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 22, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> wish I would have thought of this sooner. Thanks, Batman.


Here to protect and serve.
The caped crusader 👍


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 22, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One reason I value sparring with beginners is because they lack control.


I like the unpredictability of newbies.  They throw tend to throw a lot of irregular pattern type combos instead of the ones I'm used to see them.  I like the my uncertainty of their control which makes me less willing to look for some of those common combos that we often see as we get used to sparring.  They are the closest unknown to a stranger on the street.  I never know how their previous experience or lack of it will come out.

I'm usually more concern with the possibility that their lack of control will cause them not to see my attack soon enough to put up some resistance.  There were a couple of times I was thankful I wasn't sparring with more force because sometimes they will just totally misread everything and walk into punches that would otherwise result in some serious pain if not for my control.

I like brawlers for the same reason.  They just come in with no other gear than drive and no other direction than forward. As for the punches and kicks that will come from a brawler, they often throw a wide variety with the hopes of pressing through the attack.


----------



## WaterGal (Oct 23, 2021)

ThatOneSyrian said:


> *light bulb sound*
> That's it! Whenever I spar lower belts, I dial it back a notch to account for their lack of experience (and subconsciously "let" them hit me from time to time to boost their confidence). This naturally causes me to move slower and lower my defenses. On the contrary, fighting a lightning-fast 2nd dan with a couple WKF gold medals under his belt sorta shifts my body into overdrive and become more alert/protective.
> I wish I would have thought of this sooner. Thanks, Batman.



Yeah, don't do that. IMO, it's good to reduce your power with lower belts (also smaller people) and maybe strike less often, but don't lower your defenses. Challenge them by dodging a lot.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2021)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, don't do that. IMO, it's good to reduce your power with lower belts (also smaller people) and maybe strike less often, but don't lower your defenses. Challenge them by dodging a lot.


I agree.  I'll either lay off the power or use it as an opportunity to work on some skills that I suck in so I can improve in other areas.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree.  I'll either lay off the power or use it as an opportunity to work on some skills that I suck in so I can improve in other areas.


I make it a point not to use things they haven't been taught yet.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I make it a point not to use things they haven't been taught yet.


are you concerned they may try to copy you?


----------

