# Training For The Worst Case.



## MJS (Feb 18, 2011)

While surfing the web, I came across a thread on another forum.  The OP of that thread, was asking about worst case scenarios and why people bother to train against them, as if you're in that situation, chances are, its already too late.  Things such as the badguy has a knife to our throat....its already too late to defend ourselves.  Badguy is behind you, with knife to your throat....its already too late to defend yourself.  Basically, give up whatever it is that he wants, and hope that you will survive.

So, basically this person feels that time is better spent, defending against attacks that people actually stand a chance of facing.  

Now, I realize there will probably be 2 sides on this.  Side 1 will say, "Yes, thats correct...when you're in the above listed scenarios, or any mugging type situation, comply and hope for the best."

Side 2 will usually say, "Defend yourself no matter what!! Nothing says that you'll survive even if you do comply, so may as well go for it and hope for the best!"

Myself, I tend to lean more towards side 2.  Yes, stats show that if you comply, you may survive, and stats also show that if you do comply, you just may end up dead, so fight back and fight hard!  Are the above mentioned scenarios really impossible to defend against? Are they crappy situations? HELL YEAH!  But I dont feel that if you're in that position, that you're pretty much screwed.  Have I drilled scenarios like that?  Yes, and while its a much more dangerous setting, I wouldn't say its impossible.  

Thoughts.


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## Kacey (Feb 18, 2011)

I think it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6... followed closely by it is better to ask forgiveness than permission.  There are too many variables possible in self-defense situations to come up with an absolute answer to _every_ possibility.  Only the person in the situation can determine, _at that moment_, if s/he feels threatened, and only that person can truly decide what level of response is appropriate to the situation as it occurs.  There's time enough to worry about possible repercussions later.


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## K831 (Feb 19, 2011)

I like to have a choice. 

If I train for worst case scenarios, and I end up in one at some point, well, at least I have EMPOWERED myself with options. I can read the person and the situation and I can CHOOSE to comply or fight depending on which I think is the best route. 

If I never train worst case scenarios, then I have not empowered myself with options, and I do not get to choose, I simply have to comply (or make a feeble and uniformed decision to fight), as I have left myself no other options. 

I like to keep things in my hands as much as possible.... more options = better chances. 

Having said that, I think if all you did all day was train knife at throat and gun in back situations, you're probably gonna get knocked out by a right cross or tackled and choked so yes, prioritize your training. Train for likely situations and train high percentage techniques as a priority. But be sure you have at least a little something in the tool box for the one-in-a-million worst case.....


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 19, 2011)

MJS said:


> While surfing the web, I came across a thread on another forum. The OP of that thread, was asking about worst case scenarios and why people bother to train against them, as if you're in that situation, chances are, its already too late. Things such as the badguy has a knife to our throat....its already too late to defend ourselves. Badguy is behind you, with knife to your throat....its already too late to defend yourself. Basically, give up whatever it is that he wants, and hope that you will survive.
> 
> So, basically this person feels that time is better spent, defending against attacks that people actually stand a chance of facing.
> 
> ...


 
It's already been said, but I like options. Now two incidents are exactly alike........and there is no 'average robber'. This one may take your money and leave, that one may take your money and execute you.

How can you tell the difference between the two? Anyone finds out, let me know. 

For the record, it's not over until you're dead or unconscious. As long as you can fight you haven't lost yet and it's not 'too late'......to believe so is to psychologically set oneself up for failure.........plenty of examples exist of folks who have already been shot or had their throats cut, who have successfully fought back and saved their own lives........so the OP you're referring to is demonstrably WRONG!

Good thing nobody told this guy he was 'too late' to start fighting back!


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 22, 2011)

Somehow, trusting a guy to not hurt me after he has pulled a knife to my throat doesn't seem like the brightest ideas.

I can think of much worse case scenarios i've trained for than that. Are they very unlikely? Heck yes, but somtimes people get into these situations and with the proper mindset make it out with minimal physical and emotional scarring.


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## MJS (Feb 22, 2011)

Sorry for not getting back to this thread sooner. Been busy.  Thanks to those that've already replied, and hopefully, we'll get even more replies. 

I agree with those that've already posted.  As sgtmac said, its not over 'til its over.  That being said, what this person on that other forum was thinking, is beyond me.  I guess he/she must be the type that when it gets really ugly, they just throw up their hands, bend over and kiss their *** goodbye.  The people on Flight 93, (I believe that was the one) were pretty much in a no-win situation, yet they fought back and fought back hard, and ultimately, saved the lives of many others, though sadly, they had to sacrifice their own.  

I still stand by what I said in my first post....unless I'm completely helpless at the moment, I'm going to fight back with everything I have.  If we think about it, there are countless scenarios we could come up with, and chances are we'd probably never touch on every single one, but, there are worse case scenarios out there that we should be training for.  

Oh well...I guess there're some that have no will to live.  Why train then?


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 22, 2011)

In those cases where acton on your part leads to a mutual death, maybe it is worth it. Maybe you are in a situation like flight 93, or maybe you do it to save someone or for a greater cause. It all comes down to what a person believes is worth fighting and dying for.


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## K831 (Feb 22, 2011)

MJS said:


> I guess he/she must be the type that when it gets really ugly, they just throw up their hands, bend over and kiss their *** goodbye.  The people on Flight 93, (I believe that was the one) were pretty much in a no-win situation, yet they fought back and fought back hard, and ultimately, saved the lives of many others, though sadly, they had to sacrifice their own.


 




 


MJS said:


> Oh well...I guess there're some that have no will to live.  Why train then?



I popped into a new kung-fu school that opened up near me, just to check it out. (Not sure there is a school in the area where I haven't watched a class at least if not taken a couple.) This particular school was clearly not even trying to teach any useful (defined by me as useful in an altercation) 

I asked one of the students why he chose this school, he said "I wanted to take an art that was 2000 years old and unchanged, I like the rituals, outfits and history in this school".

Not once did he or anyone mention fighting, SD etc.. just history and culture. They basically wanted, and were getting, ancient cultural dance. To each there own....


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## K831 (Feb 22, 2011)

MJS said:


> unless I'm completely helpless at the moment, I'm going to fight back with everything I have.  If we think about it, there are countless scenarios we could come up with, and chances are we'd probably never touch on every single one, but, there are worse case scenarios out there that we should be training for.



Agreed. Even though I may never have a gun to my back.... I get some pleasure out of beating the airsoft gun in practice! Despite the very practical benefit of training... we do it for fun too, right? 



Himura Kenshin said:


> In those cases where acton on your part  leads to a mutual death, maybe it is worth it. Maybe you are in a  situation like flight 93, or maybe you do it to save someone or for a  greater cause. It all comes down to what a person believes is worth  fighting and dying for.



Isn't that the question? When it is and when it isn't is a tough one. When I was single and in college, it was pretty much always worth it. Then I got married... then I had a kids... and all of a sudden, my life wasn't really just mine to risk by jumping in the mix anymore. Fortunately I am married to a woman who thinks situations like flight 93 is worth dying for, and wouldn't hold it against me... we discussed, and I know where she stands.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 22, 2011)

It's math to me, and it's pretty simple.

If I have a skill or weapon, I can choose to use it, or I can choose not to use it.
If I do not have a skill or weapon, I do not have that choice.

A narrow chance beats no chance.  So to me, it doesn't matter that situation "X" might not occur, or that my training might not work.  That's hardly the point.

This is simple stuff.  Having trained to defend against "X" threat does not mean it will work.  You could apply the technique and be injured or killed anyway.  Not training for defense against "X" means you have no technique to apply.  Anything that happens is utterly out of your control.

I cannot imagine giving choices to the person who is attacking me and leaving my life or death in his hands.

We buy insurance not because the odds are high we'll need it - if the odds were high, we'd be paying a lot more for it.  We buy it because despite the fact that the chances are low, if we need it, we need it.  Same for training against threat "X."


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 23, 2011)

+1

I use that analogy all the time. People ask me "When is the last time someone held you up at gun point?" and i ask "Well, when is the last time your house caught fire?"


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## elwin (Mar 1, 2011)

MJS said:


> While surfing the web, I came across a thread on another forum. The OP of that thread, was asking about worst case scenarios and why people bother to train against them, as if you're in that situation, chances are, its already too late. Things such as the badguy has a knife to our throat....its already too late to defend ourselves. Badguy is behind you, with knife to your throat....its already too late to defend yourself. Basically, give up whatever it is that he wants, and hope that you will survive.
> 
> So, basically this person feels that time is better spent, defending against attacks that people actually stand a chance of facing.
> 
> ...


 
I Totally Agree! It is possible to get out of any situation the winner who gets to go home for dinner, even if you did pick up a few bruisers and cuts. It all depends on what it is you trained for; if you train only for competition fighting or just to keep fit, then yeah, you probably are screwed, but if you diligently train to destroy your attacker in real life then you may know exactly what to do to disable and injure him.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 1, 2011)

I like to have options too!  As much possible training that you can get with lots of variations to continually have you exploring and on the edge of your comfort zone.  I like being out of my comfort zone and utilizing my adrenaline to my advantage.  To many martial practitioners like to stay in a comfort zone and unfortunately they get stagnant over time.  So absolutely train for worst case and push your training to the edge and beyond.  You may be surprised where it will lead you!


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## MJS (Mar 1, 2011)

K831 said:


>


 
LOL.





> I popped into a new kung-fu school that opened up near me, just to check it out. (Not sure there is a school in the area where I haven't watched a class at least if not taken a couple.) This particular school was clearly not even trying to teach any useful (defined by me as useful in an altercation)
> 
> I asked one of the students why he chose this school, he said "I wanted to take an art that was 2000 years old and unchanged, I like the rituals, outfits and history in this school".
> 
> Not once did he or anyone mention fighting, SD etc.. just history and culture. They basically wanted, and were getting, ancient cultural dance. To each there own....


 
Agreed. As long as they're willing to accept that, and willing to accept that if they're attacked, they probably wont succeed, more power to them.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 1, 2011)

Coincidentally, I'm going for 5th this year and my thesis is on worst-case defense situations just like that. I'm still learning, but I'd add the following:

1. We should spend time on training for how to survive being in that situation.

2. We should spend _*much more*_ time on the awareness, personal positioning and tactical considerations that will mean we never end up in that kind of situation.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 1, 2011)

K831 said:


> Not once did he or anyone mention fighting, SD etc.. just history and culture. They basically wanted, and were getting, ancient cultural dance. To each there own....



If it makes them happy, what's the harm? I assume you chose a more defense-oriented school down the road...


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## MJS (Mar 1, 2011)

K831 said:


> Agreed. Even though I may never have a gun to my back.... I get some pleasure out of beating the airsoft gun in practice! Despite the very practical benefit of training... we do it for fun too, right?


 
Agreed.  





> Isn't that the question? When it is and when it isn't is a tough one. When I was single and in college, it was pretty much always worth it. Then I got married... then I had a kids... and all of a sudden, my life wasn't really just mine to risk by jumping in the mix anymore. Fortunately I am married to a woman who thinks situations like flight 93 is worth dying for, and wouldn't hold it against me... we discussed, and I know where she stands.


 
I know you weren't addressing this to me, but I'll chime in anyways.   Personally, I'd rather not get physically involved.  Yes, I know, some may say, "Well, I'd hope that if I were in a situation, getting beat up, someone would come to my aid." And thats fine.  Likewise, I'd rather not take the risk.  I would most likely call the police though.  At least I'm helping in some way.


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## MJS (Mar 1, 2011)

elwin said:


> I Totally Agree! It is possible to get out of any situation the winner who gets to go home for dinner, even if you did pick up a few bruisers and cuts. It all depends on what it is you trained for; if you train only for competition fighting or just to keep fit, then yeah, you probably are screwed, but if you diligently train to destroy your attacker in real life then you may know exactly what to do to disable and injure him.


 
Ohh...careful...you might offend someone with the comment about the competition fighting.   All kidding aside, I agree...if you're training as you said in the latter part, then yes, the success rate will probably be much higher.


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## MJS (Mar 1, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I like to have options too! As much possible training that you can get with lots of variations to continually have you exploring and on the edge of your comfort zone. I like being out of my comfort zone and utilizing my adrenaline to my advantage. To many martial practitioners like to stay in a comfort zone and unfortunately they get stagnant over time. So absolutely train for worst case and push your training to the edge and beyond. You may be surprised where it will lead you!


 
Exactly!  If you never get out of that comfort zone, then basically, you're staying within the confines of the basic techs. in the system.  If that happens, then yeah, I can see why someone would feel they're screwed if they had a knife to their throat.  This is why I dont like to be bound by the techs in the system.  For example...in Kenpo, there are no techs with a knife to the throat from the front or back.  So, rather than being bound by what is there, I like to take a situation or two, and try to find ways out of them.


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## Hudson69 (Mar 1, 2011)

I think that most people train for the worst case scenario to begin with is so that they have an option or options if something like that comes up but more importantly to understand and read your surroundings to head off that situation before it gets to that point.  It is also useful in training, new recruits especially, that if you come to that point what kind of stresses there are and how you can still function.

There was a situation in Colorado where an Officer contacted the driver's at a TA not knowing that the at fault driver was fleeing from the police.  He got a gun pointed at him and he allowed himself to be disarmed of his duty gun.  When the bandit began to disengage, thinking (I suppose) that he had made the officer a non-threat, the Officer pulled out his back-up gun and shot him in the face....

I don't know what I would have done but that is how that person read his situation and he survived, his attacker went to jail.


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## elwin (Mar 11, 2011)

I really don't mean to offend anyone, all I'm saying is, in any violent situation you will do what you have trained to do, what is imprinted into your subcontious being through repetition. In real life everything happens in seconds, many times you don't have time to figure something out, you just react. How you react is determined by what you're body and mind is programmed to do. Your movement, body control, timing, striking and most importantly MINDSET, all depends on your training.

Let's look at a scenario: I don't know of you heard the story of the guy who got mugged in a parking lot by two guys with knives. He was a gifted martial artist in his style and handled the situation perfectly. He knocked out the one guy, then got the other one in a arm lock on the ground of which he could'nt get out of. Then the guy in the arm lock tapped out, and he made the mistake of letting go. As they got up the attacker grabbed the knife and stabbed him multiple times, sending him to the emergency room. Luckily he survived, but because of his conditioning, he was unable to handle the situation effectively, meaning from beginning to end and getting away safely. He was too conditioned by rules, which he applied during a situation where there was'nt any. Yes he could fight, but he could'nt do the job that was required to disable his attacker's entirely.


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