# Not MA but a good topic (IMHO)



## Tgace (Dec 17, 2003)

How to avoid being shot by the police

Sergeant Jim Wagner



   Many martial artists tend to get involved in situations that most citizens would avoid - especially situations involving violence. The confidence building nature of self-defense courses creates more "good Samaritans" (individuals who are willing to come to the aid of someone in distress) than do most groups. It's an admirable trait, but one that can get you hurt if you are not careful.

 For example, if you find yourself rendering aid to somebody who is being mugged, you not only run the risk of getting injured by the suspect, but you could end up getting injured or killed by the police as well. That's right, the police. 



Police mentality

   When police arrive at a call involving violence, they have no way of knowing who all the "good guys" are and who all the "bad guys" are. In some situations it may be obvious: a gunman shooting at the police when they arrive, a person running from them, etc. However, it's not so obvious when the suspect ditches his weapon and blends in with the crowd or when a suspect lies to them. Every situation is different, and there is no such thing as a "routine call."   

   Let's say that you find yourself in the middle of a fight trying to subdue a mugger, and the police arrive. Your pure intentions may not be apparent to the officers until they've had a chance to determine who all the "players" are. Don't be surprised if at first you are treated like a suspect, because in the first few moments you will be.  



Officer safety

   Law enforcement officers rely on their training and experience to stay alive each day. The typical street cop responds to hundreds of violent calls per year. If they seem a little "paranoid," they have reason to be. The most important rule that these professionals learn is that EVERYONE IS CONSIDERED A THREAT until their identity can be determined. And, sometime this takes time to do. 

   The same holds true for SWAT operations - everybody is considered hostile until proven otherwise. During the Columbine High School shooting on April 20, 1999 you may recall seeing images of students coming out of classrooms and buildings with their hands on top of their heads as SWAT officers escorted them out with their MP5s (sub machine guns) at the ready. The officers, not knowing if the suspects (Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold) were hiding among the fleeing students or not, had to treat all the students as suspects. This tactic has its roots in the "Princess Gate" operation when on May 5, 1980 British SAS (Special Air Service commandos) conducted a hostage rescue operation on the Iranian embassy in London. Several terrorists were holding a large number of people hostage for political reasons. When room-clearing operations began, one of the terrorists mingled in with the women hostages, pretending himself to be a hostage, so he would not be shot by the assault force. The unusual dynamic that occurred in this particular situation was that several of the women were actually trying to protect the terrorist. This kind of behavior, known as the "Stockholm Syndrome" (sympathy, and even aid to captor) can sometimes develop between captive and captor. Thus, officers knowing this will treat all persons involved as suspects. This means pointing guns at everyone and even handcuffing everybody.        

   One day you may be just trying to help someone, or may even be protecting yourself if you're the victim of a crime, and find yourself looking down the barrels of the police as they point their guns at you. Or worse yet, you may get shot by the police because you did not know how to react when contacted by them. 

   Needless to say, the public often misunderstands such treatment by the police, and it makes uninformed people very angry. The predictable feeling is, "How dare they treat me like a criminal!"



From the horse's mouth

   On several occasions I myself have pointed my Smith & Wesson 645 .45 caliber at innocent citizens, only later to have apologize to them and explain why I did it. The reasons varied: maybe they matched the description of a wanted suspect, or it was a case of mistaken identity, or perhaps they were directly involved in a situation and their involvement had not been determined.

  Once I came close to shooting a man, an innocent man, because he did not know how to act around the police. Here's what happened. 

   It was about 11:30 in the morning. The manager of a local motel (known for it's high crime rate) phoned the police and said that four men where trying to steal an orange Camero in the back parking lot. I was just down the street, and was the first officer to arrive on scene.

   Sure enough, I saw the Camero and two men on each side of it. One man was shoving a slimjim (a tool used by tow truck drivers and car thieves) between the space of the driver's door and window, as the other man appeared to be a "look out." The other two men where in a vehicle with the engine running. Based upon the report, and what I was seeing, it appeared to be a crime in progress. I thought it strange that someone would be stealing a car in broad daylight, but I wasn't going to take any chances.

   I drew my pistol and told everyone to get their hands up. My goal was to contain everyone until the cavalry arrived. The two men next to the Camero raised their hands into the air and dropped their tools, as did the driver of the "getaway car." Then, the passenger, refusing to put his hands up, kicked open the car door with his boot, stepped out, and started to walk directly towards me with his right hand behind his back as if concealing something. I yelled, "STOP! STOP!" He kept coming. I didn't know if he was going to produce a gun from his back or what, but I took a couple steps back towards a parked van and gave him one more chance to stop before I took cover and started shooting.  He kept aggressing me, and I started to pull the trigger back as I took aim at the center of his chest. There was no way I was going to let this guy get any closer. The man's friends, pleading for him to stop, must have gotten through to him because suddenly he stopped and put both hands to his sides. His right hand was empty. I took my finger off the trigger and placed it back along side the receiver in a ready position. By this time other police cars began pouring into the parking lot. 

   As it turned out, the man (who doesn't realize how close he came to getting shot) was drunk and just being stupid. The Camero belonged to one of the men's girlfriend, who had lost the keys the night before. They were just trying to her help out.

   Of course, you don't have to be drunk to make a mistake with the police. One of the duties of law enforcement officers is to pull over vehicles for traffic violations. Occasionally you'll get a driver who will shove the vehicle in park and immediately step out. The first thing that any officer thinks when this happens is, "This person is going to attack me" because many officers are shot each year during traffic stops. Needless to say, somebody suddenly getting out of the vehicle forces the officer to take immediate action, and it's not usually one the citizen likes. If someone unexpectedly gets out of his or her vehicle when I'm making the stop, I will draw my pistol and prepare myself for the ambush. It may not be pointed at them, but it will definitely be in a low-ready position until I can determine their intentions. Then I will firmly tell them to get back into the car or go sit on the curb, depending upon the situation. The law abiding citizen gets a little bent out of shape over this, but then again, the average person just waits in the vehicle until the officer makes contact with them. The people who jump out are either going to do one of three things: attack, run away, or act stupid. 



Give the police a break

   It's very unnerving to be treated like a suspect by the police, but just remember that the police don't know you. It's nothing personal. When they first arrive to a scene they don't know if they are being set up for an ambush, whether the information they received from the dispatcher is accurate or not, or whether you're the suspect, victim or witness. You just need to accept the fact that the police may treat you cautiously at first.  Being aware of this, there are key things that you should do (and should not do) whenever you are contacted by the police. 



Keep your hands in plain sight. When the police arrive make sure they can clearly see your hands. If you have them in your pockets or you're angled in such a way that they can not see a hand, then you will be considered armed until the officers can see that you are not hiding a weapon.



Don't make sudden moves. If you were just involved in a fight you may be quite hyperactive from the excitement. Remain calm and don't make sudden moves that may be interpreted as going for a weapon or taking an offensive posture. For example, if asked to show your identification, don't suddenly reach for your wallet. Quick movement like that makes the police nervous.



Don't approach the police. When the police arrive, don't run towards them. They do not know your intentions and it may appear to them as if you're going to attack them. Let the officers come to you. Just a reminder, if you are pulled over in your car by the police, remain inside the vehicle. Don't get out unless asked to do so. Getting out without permission will be considered aggressive until the officer can determine your intentions.



Do as you're told. Comply with all orders given by the police. Let them do their job of finding out what's going on. Cooperate with them and don't throw a fit if you think they are being rude to you. An officer may cut you off in conversation, or demand that certain answers be given first. By following orders you can get to business sooner and let the police know the extent of your involvement.



Don't joke around. The police are not people you want to joke around with. For example, you might get shot if you suddenly point your finger at an officer approaching you. I'm reminded of a 16-year-old kid in California who pointed a squirt gun at a police officer when parked side by side at a traffic signal. The officer turned and fatally shot the kid. The shooting was justified.

   In some situations the police must determine if a person is mentally disturbed. They may ask you, "Are you thinking of hurting yourself or others?" If you joke around and say, "Yea, I'm going to kill myself" you may find yourself taking a trip to the local mental health facility. The police do not joke around about things like this. 



Don't set yourself up for disaster. If you think you hear a burglar on the exterior of your home is trying to break in, and you have called the police, do not go outside looking for the burglar. Several people have been killed in the past when the police mistook the resident for the burglar. Such incidents usually occurred when the resident was armed, in order to protect himself or herself, and ran into the police. Most dispatchers will tell the caller to stay indoors to avoid such mishaps. The same common sense applies to store owners, jewelry dealers transporting their goods, a student going to the dojo (training weapons), or anyone else who may be armed. When the police arrive, do not be found with a weapon in your hand.



   Most people have never had any direct contact with the police. And, for those who have, it's usually the result of a traffic stop or two for minor violations. Thus, it's not unusual that many people are not sure how to act in certain situations involving the police. The pointers I have given you may help keep you safe should you ever find yourself being contacted by the police.


----------



## Cruentus (Dec 17, 2003)

2 things that I have seen on more then one occasion, and I'm not a cop...

1. Drivers who get out of the vehicle as soon as they are stopped. They are thinking that this somehow "humanizes"  them with the Police; that the cop won't just think of you as "another traffic stop," but as a human being. The reality is, the cop is trained to see this as a threat.

2. The not showing the hands thing. I even saw one guy who was like "screw you, I don't have to show you my hands, I'm not a criminal!" The Windsor Police put his head in the concrete just to make sure. What this idiot didn't realize is that you are going to be treated as a threat until the cops know that you aren't one. But regardless, I've seen people w/o ill intentions not make there hands visable, not thinking, and it really makes the police nervous. Just simply putting them open and in plain site and chilling out will make all the difference.

Like I said...very informative post!


----------



## Tapps (Dec 17, 2003)

I cop friend of mine always told me:

Put your hands on the steering wheel (where I can see them) and turn on the overhead light if you can.

That makes me less nervous.


----------



## theletch1 (Dec 17, 2003)

Excellent post.  Maybe one of the mods could move this to the locker room for all to see.  I know that I don't normally frequent the arnis forum and just stumbled on this very informative post.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *Excellent post.  Maybe one of the mods could move this to the locker room for all to see.  I know that I don't normally frequent the arnis forum and just stumbled on this very informative post. *



I have been reviewing this thread, and trying to think of the best location of it.

I think maybe the General Martial Arts or the General Self Defense forums would be a the best lcoation for this discussion. Not that it could not remain here as well.

I will discuss it with the rest of the MT staff.

*
Rich Parsons
MT Assistant Admin
*:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tapps _
> *I cop friend of mine always told me:
> 
> Put your hands on the steering wheel (where I can see them) and turn on the overhead light if you can.
> ...



Yes, I think that putting the hands on the steering wheel (and dashboard for passengers) is a good idea!

Leaving the post here is fine by me, and it's easy to copy the thread or just put a copy of the first post in a new forum.

I assume the author is the same Sergeant Wagner who regularly appeasr in Budo International magazine speaking of Reality-Based Defense?


----------



## Black Grass (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *
> 2. The not showing the hands thing. I even saw one guy who was like "screw you, I don't have to show you my hands, I'm not a criminal!" The Windsor Police put his head in the concrete just to make sure. What this idiot didn't realize is that you are going to be treated as a threat until the cops know that you aren't one...
> *



Paul,

As a former bartend at bar in downtown Windsor, you have no idea how often I have seen this. Generally, this happens because of 2 reasons:

1) Its  a 19 yr old American getting lippy because he is loaded on Canadian beer.

2) Its  a 19 yr old American getting lippy thinking the Canadian police can't touch him because he is an American.


Vince
aka Black Grass


----------



## Tgace (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Yes, I think that putting the hands on the steering wheel (and dashboard for passengers) is a good idea!
> 
> Leaving the post here is fine by me, and it's easy to copy the thread or just put a copy of the first post in a new forum.
> ...



Yep its the same guy. Other articles of his are at http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/articles/
He has a lot good to say about the Filipino arts. Im undecided on the whole SWAT/SpecOP angle...is it a sales pitch or what? He definately has the "been there done that resume". On a personal note, ive had a few people jump out of cars on me. The ones that didnt start running got a glock pointed at them. Some about pee their pants, but there are a few that it dosent even phase. Those are the ones that really make my radar go off. The other thing that I think should be added to his list is....

DONT DEMONSTRATE ON/TOUCH THE OFFICER

Ive lost count of the times that ive asked "What happened?? What did he/she do??" To get the victim/witness to "show" me by swinging/grabbing at me in a "Well he swung at me like this...or he grabbed me like that" demonstration. Ive run the gammut of just saying "please just describe, dont demonstrate" to threatening arrest if he touches me again.


----------



## Guro Harold (Dec 17, 2003)

TGrace,

Excellent post!!!

Palusut


----------



## arnisandyz (Dec 17, 2003)

Good stuff!

My cousin is a K-9 officer and he's pretty quick to use his pal in uncertain situations.  He says its amazing how people respond quicker at the site of a  German Shepard than to a gun pointed at them.


----------



## Cruentus (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> *Paul,
> 
> As a former bartend at bar in downtown Windsor, you have no idea how often I have seen this. Generally, this happens because of 2 reasons:
> ...



Oh I know. Some of the stupidist people on the entire PLANET are 19-21 year olds from Michigan who go to Windsor to get loaded. My post was not a knock on the Windsor police; they have their work cut out for them. I applauded when that moron hit the concrete!


----------



## Guro Harold (Dec 18, 2003)

Just a suggestion.

How about a Tactical and Combatives forum where this thread and others like it can fit perfectly.

Palusut


----------



## Tapps (Dec 18, 2003)

> 1) Its a 19 yr old American getting lippy because he is loaded on Canadian beer.



Living in Buffalo NY we have the same situation when Hamilton boys come down for a hockey game and find out we don't close our bars till 4am.

I think young drunk and stupid is an international theme !


----------



## Tapps (Dec 18, 2003)

(Sorry for the double, it won't let me edit)

I think we've all been young, drunk and stupid.


The trick is not to be all 3 at the same time !


----------



## Black Grass (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tapps _
> *Living in Buffalo NY we have the same situation when Hamilton boys come down for a hockey game and find out we don't close our bars till 4am.
> 
> I think young drunk and stupid is an international theme ! *




Tapps,

It doesn't matter what age they are if they come from Hamilton.

Vince
aka Black Grass


----------



## arnisador (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *How about a Tactical and Combatives forum where this thread and others like it can fit perfectly.*



Would the General Self Defense forum work?

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Tgace (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Would the General Self Defense forum work?
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



This article covers what the difference between martial arts and combatives is....

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/articles/SF_Combatives_are_Replacing_Martial_Arts_article.htm


----------



## Guro Harold (Dec 18, 2003)

There are some other tactical and combative information and organizations  that I would like to learn about and discuss so I am for a separate forum.

I think that it could be a great resource if it is popular enough.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 18, 2003)

I suggest using General Self Defense for these topics for now. If there is enough interest in those threads, we will certainly start a separate forum, but it'd be good to see what the response rate is first.

It might also help to post about it in the Support forum and see if other people speak up for the idea.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Dec 19, 2003)

T&C forum poll: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=12117

:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Dec 20, 2003)

Kali article from the same site:
http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/articles/SF_Filipino_Kali.htm


----------



## Gaidheal (Apr 15, 2004)

On the original post and topic..

When they went to the USA my aunt and uncle were warned about exactly the things you described.  Especially the "don't get out of the car, make sure your hands are on the wheel/in sight".  I also have another friend who spooked an officer somewhere in the US when they visited, because they reached into the glove box to get out documents.  Things here in the UK are a lot different.  I was glad I'd heard about this before I visited AZ myself, because I would usually get out of the car and think nothing of reaching into pockets/containers etc, for documents or whatever.  Very good thread, in my opinion.  Think I prefer the UK situation though ;¬)

John


----------



## OULobo (Apr 15, 2004)

The police in the US definitly share a burdon that stems from our right to keep and bear. Many US citizens emphaticly reserve this right, (rightfully so), and as a consequence the police are in greater danger when they make a stop, because they have to interpret and decide what is hostile or innocent and what is legal or illegal, all with consequences that range from liable to deadly. I for one will say that I think that the police, and the citizens to some extent, carry extra burdon and responsibility for our rights, but it is deemed necessary to maintain those rights and order at the same time. They really should pay these guys more. Stops may be easier in the UK, but it's because they losth their freedom to carry weapons for any reason. Not a good trade in my opinion.


----------

