# 6 Year old BB to join our school (Just a rant/story I need to tell--long)



## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

A mother stopped in the other day with her 6 year old daughter to check out our classes.  The little girl's friend is a white belt at our school and her parents spoke highly of us to them so they decided to stop in.  The lady said that her little 6 year old was getting bored with the school and was hoping to learn something more.  When I asked her present rank, I was told she was testing for her black belt the next weekend. Yes folks I should have been given my next rank for outstanding display of keeping my posure when she told this too me.  I asked her how long has she been studying she said since she was 3.

She came in on a Saturday when all we have is our "XMA" class (note:  I put it in quotes because what we do is far from the usual XMA program most schools do.)  When she saw some of our students practicing their forms she asked if this was mostly black belts.  I let her know that most of them were underbelts only 5th kyu (blue belt level) with just a couple of them 1st kyu and jr. black belt.  She asked how long it took for our kids to get their black belts and I told her that the average is about 5 years for their Jr. Black belt and when they turn 16 they can test for their adult black belt, provided they know the adult curriculum by then.  She floored at the length of time it took.  I explained that we are not in the business in rushing them through their ranks and that their is a lot to learn at each level.  I told her that her daughter was bored because they most likely have not really challanged her.  They just let her skim through her classes and gave the belt ever 2 months.  She then corrected me that it was ever two months up until the last 3 ranks then it was every 3 months.  (Which is why I should get my next rank for free for not just saying..yeah...which is why one of my 6 year orange belts would wipe the floor with your black belt...again...composure)  

She said she was going to pull her daughter from the other school after she tests for her black belt.  She was hopeful that her daughter would pass and I reassured her that as long her her check cleared the daughter would pass (Ok...so I failed that part of the composure test).  She asked if her daughter could keep the black belt if she joined.  I told her that our policy is that it is up to the parent/individual.  She could do one of two things...1) Keep the black belt but would not be considered a black belt in our school, 2) Have one of our instructors asses her and determine what rank she would be equivalent to, or 3) Just come in as a white belt (Naturally we would rather she do '3' but Sensei Sharkey believes that regardless of the school it may have come from that person did meet their requirements for the belt and should be allowed to keep it.  Now for option '1' & '2' we would assign a "mentor" that would spend some time with them individually and help them learn our system while periodically giving them an exam on the individual ranks and then letting them know "congrats you are now up to "x" level in our system.

She seemed ok with that and said that she would like her daughter to keep the black belt since she has worked 3 years to get it.  They both watched the class and eventually took off.  Will she be back?  I don't know, but living this whole incident made me thankful for the hard time we give our kids in our school that when they pass a test they know they have earned it.


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## girlbug2 (Apr 29, 2009)

A six year old black belt.

The notion just cheapens everything a black belt stands for in my mind.

How is it that parents do not understand this?


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## granfire (Apr 29, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> A six year old black belt.
> 
> The notion just cheapens everything a black belt stands for in my mind.
> 
> How is it that parents do not understand this?



how are they to understand this. 

I mean, I am happy for the kid, but SHEESH... 


But in all ernest, I don't think the Mom and the kid will be back. Ever. Most folks never go past BB. The gleaming pinnacle of martial arts, after that you kinda rank right up there with...Chuck Norris?

(But I am sure there could have been made the case on grounds of team work, cohesiveness and the joy of friendship for the girl to be a White belt should she even come for classes. You gotta find a yummy way to wrap it!  )


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## Twin Fist (Apr 29, 2009)

I want to know what the hell kind of school takes 3 YEAR OLDS

I want to find that instructor and slap the ever loving crap out of them


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## nathan3 (Apr 29, 2009)

When my son is old enough to start training in any art (and it will be well after 3 years old, I assure you), I hope that no school or instructor ever just hands my child a rank like that.  It sends the wrong message on so many levels.  Not just in martial arts, but in outside life as well.

-Nathan


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## granfire (Apr 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I want to know what the hell kind of school takes 3 YEAR OLDS
> 
> I want to find that instructor and slap the ever loving crap out of them




well, taking 3 year olds is one thing, but making the parents believe they could possibly do the full curriculum is steep.

I mean we do kids, though 3 years is a bit on the young side, but no way are they walking out of the program with a black belt at age six (guess we are not belt milling as bad as I thought we were...) I kinda missed the change there, but our kids earn their cub ranks (white belt with color stripes that match the rank progression of the big guys) and either get a white belt with a black stripe or a white belt with 'tiger cub graduate' embroidered on it when they go on to the regular kid's class (and as I recall, while still white belts, they are a step up from the true white belts...since they already know some stuff)


(just thinking out loud, since that's not the OP's problem, the 'full' BB of preschool age is)


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## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> A six year old black belt.
> 
> The notion just cheapens everything a black belt stands for in my mind.
> 
> How is it that parents do not understand this?


 
So what does a black belt stand for in your mind?


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## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I want to know what the hell kind of school takes 3 YEAR OLDS
> 
> I want to find that instructor and slap the ever loving crap out of them


 
You are more than welcome to stop by. I'm sure Sensei Sharkey would love to feel your slap. :mst:

We take 3-5 year olds in our Lil' Sharks class.  It is a basic as basic can get in terms of martial art studies.  We teach them basic kick, punches and blocks, but work a lot of their motor skills and mental skills in terms of discipline.  Once they turn 6 they can start kids program, by that time (if they start at 3) they know about 3/4 of the white to orange belt curriculum.


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## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

granfire said:


> But in all ernest, I don't think the Mom and the kid will be back. Ever. Most folks never go past BB. The gleaming pinnacle of martial arts, after that you kinda rank right up there with...Chuck Norris?


 
I think we have a better chance of them returning than not, simply because their daughter is good friends with our student.  However, I'm not holding my breath.  My favorite story to date is when one of our students who was a high white belt (meaning he was set to finally test for yellow), moved too far (so the parents say), to take our classes.  They enrolled him in a TKD school and they instantly promoted him to a blue belt level (which I'm guessing is around 6th gup or so), that was about 2 years ago.  Their friend who is still at our school told me that they are testing for their black belt this summer.


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## Omar B (Apr 29, 2009)

That stinks.  A Black belt has certain responsibilities and certain expectations.  You should be able to conduct classes, command respect and defend yourself (something I know a 6 year old can't do).  I was a brown belt for 4 years till I was allowed to test for black at 16 and I feel it was totally for the best.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 29, 2009)

here is the question tho, are you claiming to be teaching them TKD, or a "kids martial arts program"

there is  a big difference. That six year old came from a school that claimed to be teaching her TKD.

Thats bullcrap.

By your own words, you are just teaching the 3-6 year olds what amounts to a general phys ed class, with some martial arts aspects.




miguksaram said:


> You are more than welcome to stop by. I'm sure Sensei Sharkey would love to feel your slap. :mst:
> 
> We take 3-5 year olds in our Lil' Sharks class.  It is a basic as basic can get in terms of martial art studies.  We teach them basic kick, punches and blocks, but work a lot of their motor skills and mental skills in terms of discipline.  Once they turn 6 they can start kids program, by that time (if they start at 3) they know about 3/4 of the white to orange belt curriculum.


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## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> here is the question tho, are you claiming to be teaching them TKD, or a "kids martial arts program"
> 
> there is a big difference. That six year old came from a school that claimed to be teaching her TKD.
> 
> ...


 
Well, technically we are teaching them karate (Sharkey's Karate Studio).  This is how we explain our program:

The "Lil Sharks" program is a fun and exciting introduction to karate for kids ages 3-5. It is a month by month program that meets twice a week. The classes are 30 minutes long and occur every Tuesday and Thursday. Some of the benefits include:

Builds proper attitude, respect and discipline
Increases flexibility and strength
Improves coordination and concentration.
Develops self-esteem and self-confidence.
 It is an introduction to Karate, but not our full curriculum.

Now, in principle I agree with you that teaching a full blown curriculum to a 3 year old is wrong, well not wrong so much as impossible., however, to play devil's advocate here, they are teaching their TKD curriculum.  Now granted their standards must be low or perhaps the girl is just that talented, I personally didn't see her do anything that day.


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## Jphtkd (Apr 29, 2009)

What type of TKD school did this 6 yr old come from? It is a pretty common practice in ATA schools to sell black belts to young children.


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## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

Omar B said:


> That stinks. A Black belt has certain responsibilities and certain expectations. You should be able to conduct classes, command respect and defend yourself (something I know a 6 year old can't do). I was a brown belt for 4 years till I was allowed to test for black at 16 and I feel it was totally for the best.


 
These are your definitions of a black belt and though some may agree with you there are others who may not subscribe to the same thought.

I know plenty of adult black belts who couldn't conduct a class if their life depended on it.  As well as I know black belts who deserve no respect whatsoever and defending yourself?  The 6 year old may well be able to defend herself agains someone her own age or maybe even a couple of years older.  If you are asking if she could defend herself against an adult, most likely not, then again I know adults black belts who are incable of this.  

In the same sense I know of a 11 year old black belt who can meet all of three of your requirments and be a formidable opponent against an adult.    So at what age is too young?


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## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> What type of TKD school did this 6 yr old come from? It is a pretty common practice in ATA schools to sell black belts to young children.


 
It is a KKW school.  I believe she was from one of Bally's TMA schools that is local to us.


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## JBrainard (Apr 29, 2009)

Omar B said:


> That stinks. A Black belt has certain responsibilities and certain expectations. You should be able to conduct classes, command respect and defend yourself (something I know a 6 year old can't do). I was a brown belt for 4 years till I was allowed to test for black at 16 and I feel it was totally for the best.


 
*slightly off topic*
I have to agree. Sadly, there are far too many black blets out there who don't have the attributes you described above. Lame.


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## Omar B (Apr 29, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> These are your definitions of a black belt and though some may agree with you there are others who may not subscribe to the same thought.
> 
> I know plenty of adult black belts who couldn't conduct a class if their life depended on it.  As well as I know black belts who deserve no respect whatsoever and defending yourself?  The 6 year old may well be able to defend herself agains someone her own age or maybe even a couple of years older.  If you are asking if she could defend herself against an adult, most likely not, then again I know adults black belts who are incable of this.
> 
> In the same sense I know of a 11 year old black belt who can meet all of three of your requirements and be a formidable opponent against an adult.    So at what age is too young?



I hear you man.  I found that when I was allowed to test I did have the requisite knowledge and appreciation of the skills and their meaning.  To a child they are just movements, it's hard to see below the surface.  But then I was doing Seido and BB does not only mean knowing the material, it comes with a certain "maturity" I guess you could say.

Is it commoin for TKD to have such young BBs?


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## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

Omar B said:


> I hear you man. I found that when I was allowed to test I did have the requisite knowledge and appreciation of the skills and their meaning. To a child they are just movements, it's hard to see below the surface. But then I was doing Seido and BB does not only mean knowing the material, it comes with a certain "maturity" I guess you could say.
> 
> Is it commoin for TKD to have such young BBs?


 
Yes it is..most school consider them just poom belts not the same as adult black belts.  

Everyone has a different philosophy when it comes to BB.  My TSD BB meant more to me than when I earned my KKW TKD BB.  My Shorei BB, if I get it (testing is in September this year) will mean more than either of those two.  Just because of the process of learning that I had to go through in order to get it.  Does that mean I feel my TKD or TSD BB's are worthless?  Not at all.  I just feel the belt I'm working for is a bit more challenging because I'm a bit more older.


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## Jphtkd (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah, unfortunately there are a lot of schools out there selling black belts to kids. When schools started marketing to 3 yr. olds, I assume they were not thinking that far ahead. I know of a school in California that starts them at 2 yrs. old. 

I think a lot of the problem is not how young they start, but the practice of selling belts for attendance. The kids show up for class, and like clockwork they get promoted every 2-3 months. I have to occasionally remind some of the parents at my school that just because their child has met the minimum time requirement at their rank, does not guarantee that they will test.

As for the original topic, I make it a practice to not accept students from other schools. Over the years, every time I have made an exception, it has come back to bite me. A lot of the time you end up trying to fix bad habits, or dealing with the "but my other instructor taught me this way" issue.


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## miguksaram (Apr 29, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> As for the original topic, I make it a practice to not accept students from other schools. Over the years, every time I have made an exception, it has come back to bite me. A lot of the time you end up trying to fix bad habits, or dealing with the "but my other instructor taught me this way" issue.


 
We have always welcomed students from other schools.  Which I'm glad, else I would have never had the opportunity to train with such a great team.  We have had our share of the "but my old instructor does this.", we just simply tell them, well that's cool, but we need to do it this way for our system.


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## jks9199 (Apr 29, 2009)

Quite simply, the issue is "what do you consider a black belt to mean?"

In the case of the parents of the 6 year old -- and the school the girl attends -- it apparently means showing up consistently over a couple of years, and (I presume) participating in the material taught.  The OP doesn't seem to believe that there was even any real testing of the material.  In that sort of a case... the black belt is little more than a participation trophy.

In other cases, it's an advanced beginner, ready for the real instruction in a system -- or that you consistently & reliably beating the brown belts and some of the black belts in the school or otherwise have demonstrated attainment of a certain level of skill and depth of knowledge.  A black belt may or may not be a teaching rank; in some cases, the two things are completely separate, and in others, first degree/level black belts aren't considered ready to teach on their own yet.

To me... it doesn't really matter.  I know black belts who typify just about every approach to the belt.  Mine simply is an outward recognition that the senior members of my association (especially the chief instructor at the time) felt that I had met the standards to become a full member, in skill, knowledge, maturity, and personality/persona.  I don't expect it to carry special weight to someone from another system, nor does it automatically make me an expert on any sort of armed/unarmed combat!


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## igillman (Apr 29, 2009)

I think the issue stems from charging money for testing. People assume that because they have paid their money they should pass the test. Instructors, fearing that the people will go elsewhere, feel that they are pressured to pass the student because the parents are there, it is a big ceremony and because the parents have paid the fee.

Not charging for testing and not making a big deal out of testing day would get rid of some of the pressure to pass them just because they showed up. The best sort of testing is the one where the instructor asks you to stay behind after class and then they present you with a new belt. Your test consisted of being able to do what was asked of you in class.

Black belt testing can stay the same (but a bit cheaper wouldn't do any harm) because the requirements for the belt before black were sufficiently hard that anybody who gets that far is not likely to fail the step up to black.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 29, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> You are more than welcome to stop by. I'm sure Sensei Sharkey would love to feel your slap. :mst:
> 
> Are you gonna sell tickets? Let me be first in line.


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## jim777 (Apr 29, 2009)

To paraphrase Kacey from about a year ago, "You shouldn't have a black belt if you need to hold your mommy's hand to cross the supermarket parking lot". I thought that was brilliant at the time, still do. 6 year old black belts...:lol:
We accept students at 6, but I think our youngest ever junior BB was 12, and he's a very, very talented 17 year old 2nd Dan now.


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## Cirdan (Apr 30, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> They just let her skim through her classes and gave the belt ever 2 months. She then corrected me that it was ever two months up until the last 3 ranks then it was every 3 months.


 
Oh my, a whole 3 months to learn the stuff for a Black Belt test :lfao::lfao::lfao:

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

A word of advice: if the number of $`s you pay for grading is greater than the number of hours you trained... you might have been McDojang`D!


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 30, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> miguksaram said:
> 
> 
> > You are more than welcome to stop by. I'm sure Sensei Sharkey would love to feel your slap. :mst:
> ...


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## rmclain (Apr 30, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I want to know what the hell kind of school takes 3 YEAR OLDS
> 
> I want to find that instructor and slap the ever loving crap out of them


 
I saw an ATA school in my area does that. They had in their advertisement at one time, "3.5 years old and up." I should probably get a commission for the number of potential student's parent's that call asking that their 3 & 4 year-old get enrolled with us, then I refer them to that ATA school.

R. McLain


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## StuartA (Apr 30, 2009)

rmclain said:


> I saw an ATA school in my area does that. They had in their advertisement at one time, "3.5 years old and up." I should probably get a commission for the number of potential student's parent's that call asking that their 3 & 4 year-old get enrolled with us, then I refer them to that ATA school.
> 
> R. McLain


 
Hi Robert,

Thats interesting.. I usually tell parents equirying about such things to be very cautious of schools that "_claim_" to teach students that young, as more than likely its simply day care, not martial arts!

Stuart

Ps. Regarding the OP - I had a similar experience with a 6 year old BB that I recounted in my book. My thoughts are is to ask yourself if your school really needs the money that bad, as allowing a 6 year old BB into your school will tarnish its reputation, so I would simply state your rules and be done with it. Problem is, with the schools that offer such things is they play to the parents ego and that is the hard thing to change, the kids probibly dont care at that age!


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## just2kicku (Apr 30, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I want to know what the hell kind of school takes 3 YEAR OLDS
> 
> I want to find that instructor and slap the ever loving crap out of them


 
Well TF, there's an ATA school here that has a class for the 2-4 year olds. And I ran across another school that takes 2-4 year olds also. They teach them stuff that I teach my 2 year old at home.

My child is a dojo baby and when he's old enough and his attention span is good enough, I will start training him at our dojo. But I'll be damned if he'll be a black belt before he's 18.


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## miguksaram (Apr 30, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> Earl Weiss said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, Should elaborate. Sharkey was a force to be reckned with on the open tournament circuit. Caught him in action back in the 1970's . I hear he has remained active so I expect that like all of us he has lost a little over 30 years, but there is no substitute for experience. Well, maybe some...
> ...


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## miguksaram (Apr 30, 2009)

StuartA said:


> Hi Robert,
> Ps. Regarding the OP - I had a similar experience with a 6 year old BB that I recounted in my book. My thoughts are is to ask yourself if your school really needs the money that bad, as allowing a 6 year old BB into your school will tarnish its reputation, so I would simply state your rules and be done with it. Problem is, with the schools that offer such things is they play to the parents ego and that is the hard thing to change, the kids probibly dont care at that age!


 
It is not a question about money.  However, given the opportunity to "right" some wrongs, wouldn't you take the chance in having her come in and train her correctly?    

Sensei has been around long enough that people know if they say a 6 year old BB in the class that she was definitely an implant (That's what we call people who become students at our school and have had previous training.) So we are not worried about our rep in that sense.


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## miguksaram (Apr 30, 2009)

igillman said:


> I think the issue stems from charging money for testing. People assume that because they have paid their money they should pass the test. Instructors, fearing that the people will go elsewhere, feel that they are pressured to pass the student because the parents are there, it is a big ceremony and because the parents have paid the fee.


 
I don't believe it is the money aspect, it is the aspect of telling parents that their kid is just not ready to test or, if they do test and don't do well, that their child didn't pass. 

I have a fun story of asking this question at the Martial Arts Industry Association convention a couple of years ago: "How do you handle telling the parents and student that they did not pass their belt test?"  I might as well asked "How do you explain to the parents that their child sucks" because the panel was ready to crucify me for even asking the question.  

Bottomline is we have had kids test and not pass.  We simply tell them what they need to work on and that we will retest them in a couple of weeks.


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## miguksaram (Apr 30, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> My child is a dojo baby and when he's old enough and his attention span is good enough, I will start training him at our dojo. But I'll be damned if he'll be a black belt before he's 18.


 
Both of my kids are dojo babies as well.  My oldest started formal classes at 5 (he's now 14).  He will be testing for his jr. BB in September after being with Sensei Sharkey for 5 years.  Prior to that he was in TKD where he earned his Purple belt (4th gup) and he was training in kumdo as well.  My youngest started at 4 years and just did his 2 hour test for his Jr. brown belt last week and passed though he doesn't know it yet.

My deal with them is they have to stick it out until adult BB which can't be achieved from the school until they are the minimum age of 16.


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## StuartA (Apr 30, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> It is not a question about money. However, given the opportunity to "right" some wrongs, wouldn't you take the chance in having her come in and train her correctly?


I get what your saying, but by accepting the 6 year old as a BB, how much wrong are you righting compared to verifying the BB in the kids parents eyes! You can tell by her response to you that she has been reeled in hook, line & sinker and any less than joining as a current BB is unacceptable!



> Sensei has been around long enough that people know if they say a 6 year old BB in the class that she was definitely an implant. (That's what we call people who become students at our school and have had previous training.) So we are not worried about our rep in that sense.


At your school perhaps.. not elseware. I dont know you, others dont know you and wouldnt ask if that 6 year old BB is a implant or one of your own.. just food for thought! But TBH.. I think most would frown on anyone who allows a "implant" 6 year old BB into their school without a major down-grade and see the $$$ making side rather than any righting wrong type of thing, even if that was their way of thinking! Because no school should have a 6 year old BB, let alone a reputable one!

Stuart

Ps. In answer to your (first) question.. no I wouldnt, not as a BB!


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## miguksaram (Apr 30, 2009)

StuartA said:


> I get what your saying, but by accepting the 6 year old as a BB, how much wrong are you righting compared to verifying the BB in the kids parents eyes! You can tell by her response to you that she has been reeled in hook, line & sinker and any less than joining as a current BB is unacceptable!


 
Actually it is almost a perfect scenario in our eyes.  Now that she has the black belt she won't be focusing on the belt anymore and will actually focus on the material that she is learning.  I've mentioned this before, but one of the things Sensei semi-joked about was to give every person who signed up at our school a black belt.  That way they would be motivated to learn for the sake of learning.





> At your school perhaps.. not elseware. I dont know you, others dont know you and wouldnt ask if that 6 year old BB is a implant or one of your own.. just food for thought!


Well you are right, that you don't know us or our reputation, but Sensei is well known in the Chicago MA community as well as the open circuit community of NASKA, AKA, NBL, WKA.  So, again, reputation is never a factor in our decision making.  We have raised enough regional, national and world champions as well as just great martial artists and "citizens" that we are not going stress on what other think about us taking in a 6 year old bb.  I understand what you are saying, but it is just not an issue with us.



> But TBH.. I think most would frown on anyone who allows a "implant" 6 year old BB into their school without a major down-grade and see the $$$ making side rather than any righting wrong type of thing, even if that was their way of thinking!


 
I guess I'm confused on this statement, because not downgrading here is not going to put more money in our pocket in fact we would make less because she would not be paying for any color belt testing.  Our mentorship program we have for the "implant" is a one on one lesson that they do to get them up to speed with our curriculum.  We don't charge for that, unless they choose to do private lessons outside of regular class times.


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## StuartA (Apr 30, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I guess I'm confused on this statement,


Sorry, what I meant was people would simply see a 6 year old BB in your class and think you were a money-making McDojang  ie. the two come togethor like 'bread & butter'.. even with the sincerest intentions at heart, from the outside, no one would see that!

Rest of your points noted, but remember, reputations can be easily tarnished no matter how strong you may feel they are - Ive seen it happen loads of times!

Still.. your call of course. I still wouldnt!

Stuart


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## miguksaram (May 1, 2009)

StuartA said:


> Sorry, what I meant was people would simply see a 6 year old BB in your class and think you were a money-making McDojang ie. the two come togethor like 'bread & butter'.. even with the sincerest intentions at heart, from the outside, no one would see that!


 
Ahhhhh...I see what you mean now and I would agree that it could have the presence about it.



> Rest of your points noted, but remember, reputations can be easily tarnished no matter how strong you may feel they are - Ive seen it happen loads of times!
> 
> Still.. your call of course. I still wouldnt!


 
Yes, reps are like are easily tarnished.  We just have to do our best to keep it alive.    Who knows...like one of the posters said, they may not even come back anyway.


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## Nomad (May 1, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Yes, reps are like are easily tarnished. We just have to do our best to keep it alive.  Who knows...like one of the posters said, they may not even come back anyway.


 
My personal preference would be to congratulate the girl on her achievement, let her and her family know that not all dojos evaluate the same way and that your studio has differing requirements for the various belt levels. If she was interesting in continuing her training with you, I'd insist that she be evaluated for her technique, and wear the appropriate belt in your classes (would not make her start over at white belt; that's too harsh, and no doubt she has learned some good skills and basics from her prior training). 

Letting her wear an inflated belt (by your standards) in your dojo sends a bunch of wrong signals to many people (other students, parents, passersby, new prospects), and I think can only lead to negative things. The worst that could happen by your insistence that she meet your standards is that she doesn't train with you. Too bad, but overall a very minor loss.


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## SJON (May 1, 2009)

The more I read, the more I realise what a considerable body of water the Atlantic is ...


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## Kwan Jang (May 2, 2009)

If I may chime in with a few rather long comments. It is always a difficult situation when another school has created a problem by giving away belts to students that are far from ready for what that level represents. While I DO believe that junior black belts ARE a good idea for those that earn them, I don't believe that the belt should be watered down so that ANY six year old should be capable of it. I treat my jr. bb's like warrant officers in the military, they are recognized for their accomplishments and their ability, but they don't have the responsibilities or authority of an adult black belt which they can reach at 18.

My current policy for "imports" (people coming in from other schools, styles, ect) is that I did not give them their belts so it is not mine to take away from them. However, in our school, they will wear a white belt for a "break-in period" of 6-8 weeks for them to learn our curriculum (though it can be longer if they request more time) and then we will test them up to the level that they belong at. There are no test fees (I'm not fond of them anyway and only charge what our assn. requires) and most "real" black belts coming in from other schools end up at brown, though I had a Isshin ryu 3rd dan who also had a BJJ brown belt make it to black belt candidate this month (she's really good). Since our curriculum is a mix of TKD, BJJ, MT and the FMA's (and all systems must be at a high level by the standards of that system), it's hard for someone coming in to just jump right in at a high level. For example, even many of the best TKD black belts that have come in have a lot of trouble sparring muay thai or doing submission grappling with our brown belts which for us is fourth gup and two years out from their black belt(or jr. bb) test, so after they get in there for a few weeks, they pretty much understand.

We used to give people from other schools an option of wearing their old belts, but we found that always ended up creating problems. Virtually all of the people who took this option came from the "McDojo's" and I can't ever recall a single one, from my school at least, ever making it all the way through to black belt with our higher standards. The only ones who ever made it were the ones who had enough of a work ethic and had enough drive were the ones who chose to take the option that is now the only option we give. That's why we finally took the other option off the table. The only "good" that ever came out of the other method was letting our other students see the difference in the quality of our black belts and that of the imports from other schools. Like Mr. Sharkey, we did it with good intentions rather than ego, assuming that it was an oppurtunity to give the new student the value in their training that their old school did not, but should have. However, like I said before, I've never had ANY student come in who took that option that stayed through the long haul. OTOH, I have had many black belts who took the other option that have grown into fantastic black belts, even ones that have come in from McDojos, because they had the right mindset and were less concerned about rank and just wanted to learn and grow.

A quick comment about Mr. Sharkey's school's reputation if I may. His IS one of the top tournament schools in the USA. While tournament karate is not a major focus of my school (though some of our guys, including me, have been quite successful at it), I do recognize quality and people who have achieved excellence at what they do. Even though I am personally much more of a MMA, submission grappling, and full-contact/kickboxing guy, I still occasionally do open forms at the point tournaments and some of my students compete in forms, weapons and (even...egad) point sparring. Sharkey's people are a powerhouse on the open circuit and they have a high level of quality among their competitors;among the highest on the national circuit. Therefore, I really doubt that his generous approach towards the "imports from the McDojos" will do much to tarnish his rep.

One final comment regarding one posters suggestion that there should be no test and just to quietly move the students up. IMO, the real reason to have a belt system is to give the students something to shoot for and an incentive to grow. I believe that it really needs to be something that they must grow in to, otherwise it really has little to no value. I do use the lower belts to help build confidence and help beginners learn "yes, I can". In the early phases, as long as they are training and trying, they are going to pass. However, I will NOT let them test until I know hey are ready to blow that test out of the water. At this level, if they were to fail a test, it's my failure or that of my staff for putting them into that position that they were not ready for. At intermediate levels, I'm looking more at details and building the real skills and a strong foundation. Once again, I will delay a test rather than flunk a student. If they are weak on something and they they don't pass that particular part of the test, we will work with them hard with some private lessons and re-test them when they get it down. At advanced levels (brown belt which is roughly the two year mark in our system in a four year min. to bb), play time is over and now we are starting to train a student to become a black belt. What was encouraged before is now required and enforced. I will still try not to put a student up for a test until I am convinced that they are ready to pass, but sometimes the lesson that they really need to learn at this point is that failure to prepare is preparing to fail and I would rather them quit than compromise our standards. To me, the quality of our product as instructors is the quality of our advanced students, especially our black belts. If we are not producing a high quality product, then what we do and what we teach is of little value IMO.


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## NPTKD (May 2, 2009)

I teach 3 yr olds... But I don't give the rank... What we do is teach is basic martial arts. We do test them in a formal setting  ( no test fee) but you have to understand that these children are brothers and sister of our traditional students. They are learning and having a good time doing it. But the parents understand that these are two differant programs. when they turn five we move them up and the start at white belt. I have seen and still have children that have started in this program and  move up and continued... Sometime you have to look at the way that you run the program.


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## matt.m (May 3, 2009)

I have a 6 and 7 yr old pair. They are brothers, I tell you this.....they will test a belt a year for judo until brown 1st. Then I wont test anyone under 16 for their dan.

Oh, I have seen 10 year olds from other schools have their dan in tae kwon do.  I just think, ya know 16 ok.  If the kid is mature and it lets them be mentored then I think, ok.....all positives.  However, I am a firm believer that no one should wear a 1st dan until 16 or after.


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## miguksaram (May 5, 2009)

Kwan Jang said:
			
		

> A quick comment about Mr. Sharkey's school's reputation if I may. His IS one of the top tournament schools in the USA. While tournament karate is not a major focus of my school (though some of our guys, including me, have been quite successful at it), I do recognize quality and people who have achieved excellence at what they do. Even though I am personally much more of a MMA, submission grappling, and full-contact/kickboxing guy, I still occasionally do open forms at the point tournaments and some of my students compete in forms, weapons and (even...egad) point sparring. Sharkey's people are a powerhouse on the open circuit and they have a high level of quality among their competitors;among the highest on the national circuit. Therefore, I really doubt that his generous approach towards the "imports from the McDojos" will do much to tarnish his rep.


First of all thank you very much for your kind words.  They are much appreciated.  Sensei Sharkey believes in training in the basics.  One story is that he once told was of Mike Chat who was a top competitor in his day, was not doing well in the tournaments.  He met up with Sensei and explained the situation.  Sensei had him do hour of nothing else but Taikyoku forms (our most basic of forms).  After that Mike became refocused and started dominating the circuit again.  

I believe that if this girl did come to our school, that is excatly what she would be doing is just retraining in the baiscs.  In order to get her to a place she needs to be.


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## miguksaram (May 5, 2009)

SJON said:


> The more I read, the more I realise what a considerable body of water the Atlantic is ...


 Yes, becuase 6 year old black belts never happen in the Europe
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-15969358.html

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=68150&in_page_id=34


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## Twin Fist (May 5, 2009)

Ok,
I thought I ought to repost to make myself clear. I dont really want to disparage anyone, or how they run their school.

If a school does a class for under 6, and they call it something other than martial arts, thats fine. Call it Lil' tumblers of something. I dont care.

IF you are claiming to teach martial arts to a 3 year old, I have a problem with that. It simply isnt possible, and claiming that it is is dishonest. Your kids at YOUR house? thats one thing. Little Johnny you only see twice a week? You aint teaching that 3 yr old actual martial arts.

If some 6 year old kid comes into my school, and they claim a BB rank, well, I would just go with "Well, show me some stuff, and we will see where you are at" and go from there. If they are not willing to down rank, and they WOULD have to down rank, then they can leave.

But no one, NO ONE is getting a Dan belt from me before they are 16. I would go with 18, but that might not be realistic.


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## SJON (May 5, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Yes, becuase 6 year old black belts never happen in the Europe
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-15969358.html
> 
> http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=68150&in_page_id=34



Well, the first example seems to be from the US, but I stand corrected regarding the second :xtrmshock.

Seriously, though, I have never seen that kind of thing with my own eyes in Europe and must therefore assume that the cases that do exist are relatively rare _and probably imports from the US _...


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## miguksaram (May 5, 2009)

SJON said:


> _and probably imports from the US _...


 
Bwahahahaha.....that was funny.   I'm sure they exist just as well in Europe...perhaps the instructors are have just enough shame to not make a big deal about it like we do. ha.ha.ha.


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## CDKJudoka (May 5, 2009)

Sorry, but six year olds should NEVER hold a Dan rank. We have the Lil Dragons thing going on at our dojang and we don't have a Dragon Black belt. It is class set up for 3-7 year olds that, like the Lil Shark program, teaches basic intro to TKD. It doesnt start teaching any of the curriculum until after they are 7 years old, and at that point they will be promoted to either a high white belt, yellow, or high yellow until they can test with the proper TKD curriculum to get their kups.

I was given a first dan going into the school that I am in currently, because of my 2nd Dan that I had earned previously, and that first Dan I had to test for before it was given to me in the new school.


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## miguksaram (Jun 8, 2009)

Just an update to all of this.  The 6 year old did come back and join the school.  She was already in culture shock the first day.  She told her mom it was a hard class and said "They made me sweat." ha.ha.ha.  The mom gave her a choice to either go back to the TKD school or stay with us and she chose us.  The mom told me that there were others from the school that wanted to join but were using her and her daughter as the test rats to see if ours was a better alternative.  

Hopefully we will be rescuing a few more people soon.


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## granfire (Jun 8, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Just an update to all of this.  The 6 year old did come back and join the school.  She was already in culture shock the first day.  She told her mom it was a hard class and said "They made me sweat." ha.ha.ha.  The mom gave her a choice to either go back to the TKD school or stay with us and she chose us.  The mom told me that there were others from the school that wanted to join but were using her and her daughter as the test rats to see if ours was a better alternative.
> 
> Hopefully we will be rescuing a few more people soon.



AHAHAHAHAHAHA...can't help it! Hope she sticks with it!


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## terryl965 (Jun 8, 2009)

Hopefully they will stay


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## miguksaram (Jun 8, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Hopefully they will stay


 
I hope so too.  They started off with a 3 month agreement.  So only time will tell, but hey at least they will know there are other alternatives to the belt mills.


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## ATC (Jun 8, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Sorry, but six year olds should NEVER hold a Dan rank.


I did not think they could anyway. You cannot hold a Dan rank until the age 16 if I am not misstaken. Under 16 is considered a Poom, is this not correct?


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## clfsean (Jun 8, 2009)

ATC said:


> I did not think they could anyway. You cannot hold a Dan rank until the age 16 if I am not misstaken. Under 16 is considered a Poom, is this not correct?



Now-a-days... depends on the school/org.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 8, 2009)

ATC said:


> I did not think they could anyway. You cannot hold a Dan rank until the age 16 if I am not misstaken. Under 16 is considered a Poom, is this not correct?


 

Under Kukkiwon guidelines, you are correct. However, many schools don't make a distinction between poom & dan. It's one of the reasons & like the actual poom belt for poom ranks.


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## CDKJudoka (Jun 8, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> Under Kukkiwon guidelines, you are correct. However, many schools don't make a distinction between poom & dan. It's one of the reasons & like the actual poom belt for poom ranks.



Exactly, which is a big problem in my book, but I come from a very old school, traditional curriculum where it takes some time to go from 1st kyu/gup to 1st Dan. I started TKD at 12 and got my brown belt by 14, but I wasn't allowed to test for my BB til I was 17 years old.


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## terryl965 (Jun 8, 2009)

ATC said:


> I did not think they could anyway. You cannot hold a Dan rank until the age 16 if I am not misstaken. Under 16 is considered a Poom, is this not correct?


 
That is correct but so many school never really tell anyone that.


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## ATC (Jun 8, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Exactly, which is a big problem in my book, but I come from a very old school, traditional curriculum where it takes some time to go from 1st kyu/gup to 1st Dan. I started TKD at 12 and got my brown belt by 14, but I wasn't allowed to test for my BB til I was 17 years old.


That's 5 years and about right. Kids don't really get training in all aspects of TKD anyway. We do not teach them much SD as most won't work because of their size compared to an adult. We do teach them some basic excape moves but that is about it. Once they come into our adult classes they get more SD training.

We do let some kids as young as 12 into adult classes but these are big kids. We still have some 14 and 15 year olds in the kids classes due to their size.


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## KickFest (Jun 9, 2009)

I think the article at http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=68150&in_page_id=34 is a classic example of the media misrepresenting the facts.

Although the article headline is "Martial Archie becomes youngest black belt", there are a couple of quotes which make me wonder what they mean, exactly.

"he is the youngest of just 15 to have reached *junior* black belt"
"Because of his progress, he will skip through two grades in his new class, and will begin as a yellow stripe next year."

This seems to be similar to a system run by my club, where the kids rank in a separate system and get belts which are white with a coloured stripe through them. When they enter the adult class they go straight to yellow belt. We don't have any 6 year old black belts though!

Not to be unkind to the Metro (without it I'd actually have to look at the other people on London Underground... eugh), but it looks like they've latched on to "black belt" and tried to make a story out of it.


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## midnight star (Jun 15, 2009)

wow!

in our association,they dont take kids until they're 5-6 yrs old.
you can test every 3 months for a belt/stripe until redbelt, the u have to wait 6 month minimum before taking black tag,then 1 yr minimum before taking black belt grading.

having said this,you can only test IF your instructor thinks you are a)good enough and b)if you,ve put in the time and effort!

also before taking your black belt or any dan grade, you have to have been to at least 10 specific black belt training sessions and attended some events,be it competitions or seminars etc.Proof of attendance is required(signiture of the event organiser/instructor) and is submitted with your grading application form.

i take my 3rd dan this november and have been to many,many BB training sessions and events over the last 18 months since taking my 2nd dan.
I believe you need to show some commitment and show that ur prepared to put yourself out to show u are worthy of being ALLOWED to test for a dan grade!
i have no problem with doing this.


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2009)

KickFest said:


> I think the article at http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=68150&in_page_id=34 is a classic example of the media misrepresenting the facts.
> 
> Although the article headline is "Martial Archie becomes youngest black belt", there are a couple of quotes which make me wonder what they mean, exactly.
> 
> ...


 
You beat me to it! I was going to post much the same that he isn't keeping the grade at all and it's only a junior one at that.
Still not to be unkind to Wiltshire lol but things are a tad shall we say 'slower' down there!


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 15, 2009)

Have a look here.  I came across this by accident, when trying to find out what is Choi Kwang Do.  Gets remarkable at the third row.

http://www.thechoifoundation.co.uk/gallery.htm


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2009)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Have a look here.  I came across this by accident, when trying to find out what is Choi Kwang Do.  Gets remarkable at the third row.
> 
> http://www.thechoifoundation.co.uk/gallery.htm



Sheesh.

We require black belts to be 16 years old.


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 15, 2009)

Doesn't sit right does it?  I realise that there needs to be something to aim for for juniors.  I think the Kukkiwon Poom grade idea is a good one, although I don't think conversion to Dan should be automatic.  That age though...


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2009)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Doesn't sit right does it? I realise that there needs to be something to aim for for juniors. I think the Kukkiwon Poom grade idea is a good one, although I don't think conversion to Dan should be automatic. That age though...


 
I expect the money made from the gradings is good though!


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## Twin Fist (Jun 15, 2009)

see, THIS kind of crap is why i am looking at other arts


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## terryl965 (Jun 15, 2009)

Yea other arts have the same problems, we as instructor should be setting the bar high and remember a child is a junior and then needs to re-test as an adult.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 15, 2009)

yeah, BUT

the STINK is on everyone that calls themselves TKD


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## terryl965 (Jun 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, BUT
> 
> the STINK is on everyone that calls themselves TKD


 
Same with karate, Judo, Kenpo, Jujitsu and alot of other arts.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 15, 2009)

*sigh*

so true.

now i need to drink.............


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I expect the money made from the gradings is good though!



I tried not to cast nasturtiums (!).  But, yeah, thats what I thought.

There was another southern association that had 10, yes 10, different colour patterned doboks depending on what position you hold.  That and some of the other things I read didn't impress I'm afraid.  That being my first intro to Choi Kwang Do and all.  I'm sure there are some good ones though...


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2009)

FieldDiscipline said:


> I tried not to cast nasturtiums (!). But, yeah, thats what I thought.
> 
> There was another southern association that had 10, yes 10, different colour patterned doboks depending on what position you hold. That and some of the other things I read didn't impress I'm afraid. That being my first intro to Choi Kwang Do and all. I'm sure there are some good ones though...


 
LOL! There's always some nugget out there who thinks it's a quick and easy way to make money but for every one of them I'm sure theres a few genuine,proper instructors out there.
Mind, they teach public speaking as well lol, I'm quite impressed!


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## girlbug2 (Jun 15, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> As for the original topic, I make it a practice to not accept students from other schools. Over the years, every time I have made an exception, it has come back to bite me. A lot of the time you end up trying to fix bad habits, or dealing with the "but my other instructor taught me this way" issue.


 
I understand how it would be annoying and frustrating to retrain bad habits, etc. But does that mean that if some kid came to your school wanting to learn, and he had perhaps spent a few months training in karate somewhere else, you would refuse to accept him because he was, shall we say, ruined forever? If all instructors took that attitude there would be precious few students out there that qualify for anybody to teach--what with moving and all these days. Most every kid ends up dabbling a little here and there for a short while before later finding their permanent school.


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## Steve (Jun 15, 2009)

SJON said:


> The more I read, the more I realise what a considerable body of water the Atlantic is ...


 
Here's a website that lists 7 black belts that are under 8 years old.  Only one is from the USA: http://youngblackbelts.tripod.com/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/6181287.stm  Anyone want to wager that, a few years after the above story, Mollie is a 4 year old black belt?  I'd bet those odds.

Here's a 10 year old:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/mid_/3030243.stm

This is a problem everywhere.


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## Stac3y (Jun 15, 2009)

My ten year old son may be a junior black belt by the time he turns 12. Before you freak, re-read that, please. I said JUNIOR black belt. It's a way different animal.

In my club, the kids have a different curriculum. Their black belt test is grueling (though not so bad as the adults' test!) Their black belts look different (they have a white stripe in the middle), and they start over at white belt when they move up to the adult class at 13. Most of the kids don't make it to jr bb. To be nominated to test, they must have an excellent understanding of the material (including history and a small amount of theory), have shown a sustained level of commitment, good attitude, and maintain good grades in school, and must be able to perform all techniques, etc. well. To make it through the test without giving up, they have to have pretty rigorous conditioning.

I don't know if my sons will make it to jr bb or not. Why? Because it's HARD, and they are KIDS. They may choose to move up to the adult classes without testing for jr bb. The jr bbs I've spent time with are fully capable of teaching techniques to lower belt adults (though sometimes the adults lack the respect to take the instruction.) Kids that can make it to jr bb show a remarkable maturity and drive for their ages. We don't take them until age 6, so around 11 or twelve is about as soon as they can hope to test for jr bb.

I am in no way advocating giving kids black belts that are considered equivalent to those of adult black belts, but I don't have a problem with kids earning junior black belts if they have completed their curriculum and are held to a rigorous standard in testing.


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the STINK is on everyone that calls themselves TKD



Well, that's a bit strong, but I know what you mean.



terryl965 said:


> Same with karate, Judo, Kenpo, Jujitsu and alot of other arts.



I disagree. Judo does not have this kind of reputation, and doesn't give black belts to 6 year olds. It also isn't nearly as prevalent in jujutsu, and even Karate as a rule has less of it than TKD, in my experience. Every art has some of this, but TKD has much more than most.


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> My ten year old son may be a junior black belt by the time he turns 12. Before you freak, re-read that, please. I said JUNIOR black belt. It's a way different animal.



If that were so, it'd be given a different name. We don't give kids a junior bachelor's degree when they graduate high school. They call it a junior *BLACK BELT* for a reason--they know what people will think when they hear that.


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## terryl965 (Jun 15, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Well, that's a bit strong, but I know what you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Judo does not have this kind of reputation, and doesn't give black belts to 6 year olds. It also isn't nearly as prevalent in jujutsu, and even Karate as a rule has less of it than TKD, in my experience. Every art has some of this, but TKD has much more than most.


 
Well I can name atleast twenty five school in the metroplex that have blue belt kids in judo maybe not six but eight and they are on the competition team, also alot of the Karate school here have BB as young as five, maybe they are juniors like my bb below 15 are but still people have them. I am not here to get into a pissing match but in the metroplex we have alot of McDojo's maybe more than everywhere except florida and california. You are probaly right about Jujitsu so my apology, just trying to say there are alot of kids programs out here and alot are in the form of rec centers, I get2-3 new kids a month from them and all of them are bb and I have to tell them to put back ona white belt because they know nothing and what they do know is bad. Bitter I am yes and tired of these so called instructor just filling people mind with what they want to hear instead of what they need to know.


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## Stac3y (Jun 15, 2009)

arnisador said:


> If that were so, it'd be given a different name. We don't give kids a junior bachelor's degree when they graduate high school. They call it a junior *BLACK BELT* for a reason--they know what people will think when they hear that.



In my organization, it is the highest rank a kid can achieve as a kid. It looks different, has different requirements, and has a different name: Junior Black Belt; NOT Black Belt. Personally, I could give a crap what outsiders think about it, and I don't go around advertising my rank (or my kids') to people who haven't a clue about what it takes to get to that rank. 

No one with any sense would think that a junior black belt (and no, we don't say it in small letters) is the same as an adult black belt. I think the junior/senior split is a sensible way to allow kids to advance within their peer student group, and believe me, they KNOW they will go back to white when they move up to adult classes. And believe me, no 6 year old would ever be able to pass the test our junior black belts have to take.

I do NOT believe that kids should achieve black belt rank that is equivalent to adult rank. We require students to be 16 or older (judging from most of the teenagers I know, 16 is still too young, but nothing's perfect) to test for a "real" black belt.


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## just2kicku (Jun 15, 2009)

In our org. the highest rank you'll see a kid is brown belt. If they make brown at 14, guess what, you are a brown till at least 16. 

God help my kid when I start training him, poor kid is gonna be a white belt forever  :erg:


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> God help my kid when I start training him, poor kid is gonna be a white belt forever  :erg:



Yup, mine was a white belt from when he was about 11 or 12 (I forget exactly when we started getting formal about training) to less than a month before his 17th birthday.


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## granfire (Jun 15, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Yup, mine was a white belt from when he was about 11 or 12 (I forget exactly when we started getting formal about training) to less than a month before his 17th birthday.



LOL an he actually stuck with it?!


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 16, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Well, that's a bit strong, but I know what you mean.



More than a bit strong.  You cant tar everyone with the same brush.



arnisador said:


> I disagree. Judo does not have this kind of reputation, and doesn't give black belts to 6 year olds. It also isn't nearly as prevalent in jujutsu, and even Karate as a rule has less of it than TKD, in my experience. Every art has some of this, but TKD has much more than most.



Whilst there is a degree of this perception problem in GB, from what I see on here it certainly seems to be a much more prevalent problem in the US.



terryl965 said:


> Well I can name atleast twenty five school in the metroplex that have blue belt kids in judo maybe not six but eight and they are on the competition team, also alot of the Karate school here have BB as young as five, maybe they are juniors like my bb below 15 are but still people have them. I am not here to get into a pissing match but in the metroplex we have alot of McDojo's [snip]



I dont think its art specific, more an indication of how society is going.  Its a now now now culture.



granfire said:


> LOL an he actually stuck with it?!



And thats the problem, there has to be something for the majority of kids to aim at.  That's the advantage of the kukkiwon poom grade setup.  If they changed it so that conversion required a re-test at the equivalent Dan rank, then I think that is the best of both worlds.  Something to aim for, with the distinction that they are not full dan grades.


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## miguksaram (Jun 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, BUT
> 
> the STINK is on everyone that calls themselves TKD


 
I think this is more reflected on TKD because there are more TKD schools than other schools.  If you look at the pecentages of schools that are belt mills I would take a  lucky guess and say that the problem is evenly spread throughout the majority of the styles out there.


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Yup, mine was a white belt from when he was about 11 or 12 (I forget exactly when we started getting formal about training) to less than a month before his 17th birthday.





granfire said:


> LOL an he actually stuck with it?!



Yup! I was his instructor, though _my_ instructor graded him to lakan (black belt)! We practiced at home, plus he attended a JKD-Kali/BJJ school where they did give out belts (but didn't accept students younger than 14).


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## dancingalone (Jun 16, 2009)

I will began teaching my son when he is old enough - perhaps 10 or so.  Earlier than that and I believe I would have to modify the material too much for it to be worthwhile to me or him.

And yes, my son will have a LONG time between belts, even of the colored variety, and yes he WILL stick with it.  My house, my rules.  Part of being a parent is doing what is best for him even when he doesn't want it.  This can mean chores as well as making sure he doesn't run around with unsupervised and undisciplined children.  I believe we used to call this parenting before all the new age psychology garbage took over our educational systems.


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## CDKJudoka (Jun 16, 2009)

Judo doesn't issue a black belt to ANYONE under the age of 17. And the Junior brown belts do not translate when they go from Junior to Senior ranking. And the only reason why there are more TKD kid BBs than any other style is because more people in the US practise TKD than any other striking art.


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## dancingalone (Jun 16, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> And the only reason why there are more TKD kid BBs than any other style is because more people in the US practise TKD than any other striking art.



That's one of the main reasons but surely not the only reason.  I think it's fair to say TKD has MORE than its share of McDojangs.  I guess it's a case of the chicken or the egg...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 16, 2009)

My feeling on black belts is this:  One test to rule them all.

In other words, the test is the same regardless of who takes it or how old they are.  The test should be geared to and challenging for the average adult student (16+).  It should be a rigourous test.  If a twelve year old can pass that test, then kudos, give him his belt.  If an eighty three year old great grandmother can pass it, give her her belt.

That way, there is no ageism issues.  The instructor should then simply inform the student that they are ready or not ready to test.  That avoids kids or elderly students who are not able to withstand blows from adult students getting seriously injured during the sparring segment of the test.

In my view, a black belt is a sign that the student has learned, is proficient in, and can make practical use of the system, whatever it is.  Realistically, there are physical requirements to being able to do that.  Being youthful or elderly certainly can impact one's physical ability to execute the techniques proficiently. 

A black belt should be able to practically use the system against anyone, regardless of age.  Not beat anyone, but make practical use of the system (blocks, kicks, punches, footwork, etc.).

Daniel


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2009)

I think it's a marketing success. There are plenty of McDojos (Fred Villari, anyone?) but the TKDers recognized the business necessity of teaching children early and the idea spread most rapidly through that community.

By no means is it limited to TKD, and I know there are TKD schools with solid standards out there! But Judo is a sport art that has kept higher standards for its black belt, for example. It's also a lot less popular, for a number of reasons.


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

I'm not one to revive a dead thread, but I ran across this one and thought I would give you all an update.  The little 6 year old, now going on 8, has not only kept with it, but she has become a dojo rat.   Plus she gave up her black belt willingly and started at the bottom of our ranking system.  This was after she took our orange belt test (8th gup/kyu), which is our first test we give, and she told her mom that it was almost as hard as her black belt test was.  

Now going on a year and a half she has achieved her blue belt (6th gup/kyu) and will hopefully test for her green in a couple of months.  She has made some great progress and has also become a great competitor.  Along with her came another student from the same school who started a few months after she did.  Some scenario, except he didn't take his black belt test.  He is now a yellow belt (7th gup/kyu) on track for his blue belt at the end of the month.  

I'm very proud of them because they could have kept their previous rank but instead, on their own accounts, chose to start at the beginning and work their way back up.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

That is absolutely wonderful news, thanksfor the update


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## Master Dan (Nov 17, 2010)

It been so long I can't remember if I ever say any children let alone even teen agers when I started but I do remeber you had to be 18 to recieve a 1st Dan and most everybody was 21 26 or orlder and avearge of 4-6 years and that was training 5-6 days a week 3-5 hours then you had to train full time the last six months and break one full size fire brick knife hand besides all the other stuff.

Commercialization of the art has led the meaning of bb to get watered down to almost nothing giving monkeys a black belt a 6 year old? why not.

Parents thinking they should be incharge of teaching decisions and comparing prices like shopping at Walmart. I have always told my students you cannot buy what I know you have to earn it. And that goes for all trades no master tradesman will share what they truly know just because a person shows up paid thier dues. Time Respect hard work loyalty that is the only currency of true MA


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2010)

That is indeed wonderful news!  This young lady, if she sticks with it, will be fantastic as she gets older.  And kudos to the young fella that started fresh as well.  

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2010)

Great Stuff!


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 17, 2010)

My current rule is 1st degree recommend no earlier than 16, decided at 18.  It was 18 for BB period, but 1st recommend was dropped specifically for me, as I was ready for it at 17.  Since I got my BB only 6 other people have made it that far.  One was an exception and made 1st recommended at 13, but he was technically more sound that anyone I've ever trained with, and mature way beyond his age.  Kids I have now?  Not a chance in hell of any of them making black before 16.


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## granfire (Nov 17, 2010)

well, the little ones do surprise you every once in a while! ^_^


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> So what does a black belt stand for in your mind?


It should mean somthing more than what six year old can offer.
Sean


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> My current rule is 1st degree recommend no earlier than 16, decided at 18. It was 18 for BB period, but 1st recommend was dropped specifically for me, as I was ready for it at 17. Since I got my BB only 6 other people have made it that far. One was an exception and made 1st recommended at 13, but he was technically more sound that anyone I've ever trained with, and mature way beyond his age. Kids I have now? Not a chance in hell of any of them making black before 16.


If you don't mind my asking, what is the difference between a recommended and a decided black belt?  I have only ever heard of this in ATA schools, but the ATA does not put age restrictions on black belts the way that you describe above.

Also, your post intimates that the thirteen year old made recommended but not decided at the age of thirteen.  How long does he remain a recommended BB.  You also say that none of the other kids will make black belt before sixteen.  So does that mean that a recommended black belt is a black belt?  

Not picking at you; just curious.

Daniel


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## Cirdan (Nov 17, 2010)

One less for the dark side.


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## granfire (Nov 17, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> It should mean somthing more than what six year old can offer.
> Sean



most.
Some do surprise you.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 17, 2010)

granfire said:


> most.
> Some do surprise you.


I will allow for a few Doogy Housers, but we are talking about people who most likely read at the level of your typical six year old. However, we may have a little Ender on our hands.
Sean


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## granfire (Nov 17, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> I will allow for a few Doogy Housers, but we are talking about people who most likely read at the level of your typical six year old. However, we may have a little Ender on our hands.
> Sean



LOL, no, I am not hanging it on the reading level. heck not too many adults grasp BB philosophy, but some kids come out of the womb old and wise beyond their years. Not that that is valued these days.


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 17, 2010)

BB recommended - It's basically a 1 year period (2 if you have to wait 16 to 18) where the higher ranks (me, my father when he shows up, any 1st decided) grade the student on growth beyond physical attributes.  Teaching is about 50% of what the student is graded on.  Before BB they might help teach some one steps or lead warm ups.  Recommend leads part or all of class while I stand back and watch.  They have to exhibit confidence in their ability to work with students.  They have to be able to hold the attention of the whole class while demonstrating techniques and leading drills.  On the physical side, a complete breakdown of their form without any help, and the knowledge to break down any form they've previously learned.  Self defense against various grabs, holds, knife and gun.


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 17, 2010)

We used to be an ATA school until the early 90s.  Alex was that 1 in a million technical freak of nature, which is why the exception was made.  He was so good he could command the whole room from 13-16 without anyone giving the slightest disrespect.  One time he was disrespected, and that was by an old 3rd dan that had not shown up in years, on a night the kid was running the show by himself.  Said 3rd dan walked in next class and was told 'You don't need to put your bag down or take off your shoes.'  Except in not so kind words.  If I ever had the good fortune to have another student that good, I will have stored up some amazing karma. 

Not to say that I don't have good students now, I do.  The ones that have only been trained by me and my team are coming along really well.  The inherited advanced belts... some are moving forward faster than others.  A few don't like the higher standard, that performing at the level that was accepted before isn't now.  But they haven't quit, so I take that as a good sign.

As far is recommended a BB?  Yes and no.  It's never happened, but they can be demoted back to brown should they fail to perform at a level expected of an instructor.  Recommended also aren't full instructors.  While they do teach, it's not often that there isn't a senior instructor at class too.  It does happen, I can't be there every night.  And the group I have right now, I trust them completely.  Mostly because they've been stuck for years at that level due to about a million circumstances out of anyones control.  In the next 4-6 months they'll all be promoted.


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## miguksaram (Nov 18, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Now going on a year and a half she has achieved her blue belt (6th gup/kyu) and will hopefully test for her green in a couple of months.


 
Ooops!  I made a mistake...She was in last night and I saw that she did get her green belt from the last testing.  So next step is purple and that is not happening for at least 6 months.


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## granfire (Nov 18, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Ooops!  *I made a mistake*...She was in last night and I saw that she did get her green belt from the last testing.  So next step is purple and that is not happening for at least 6 months.



20 lashes with a wet noodle!


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## miguksaram (Nov 18, 2010)

granfire said:


> 20 lashes with a wet noodle!


 
That reminds me...I have a craving for bibim naemyung.:whip1:


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## Gemini (Nov 19, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> It is a KKW school. I believe she was from one of Bally's TMA schools that is local to us.


Sounds like the old T-USA schools. 
I'm glad the little girl is doing well.


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## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

Gemini said:


> Sounds like the old T-USA schools.
> I'm glad the little girl is doing well.


Yes, those were the old T-USA schools.  Never did update the part about her original school but it was YK TKD school, not the Bally's that I originally thought it was.


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