# Building A Spontaneous Reaction



## MJS (Nov 11, 2005)

Being able to react without having to think about what you're doing is IMO, a goal that we should all strive to reach. When we're first learning, we of course know what the attack will be, and we'll respond accordingly. However, we're not going to have that luxury when we are outside of the dojo. 

What drills do you do to help with building that spontaneous reaction?

Working a technique line, where random attacks are thrown is one way. You could also have a few preset attacks set up. Have the student close their eyes, and then when they open, the attacker responds with one of those attacks. 

Anyone else??

Mike


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## Andrew Green (Nov 11, 2005)

Sparring 

I don't care much for technique lines....


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## arnisador (Nov 11, 2005)

One thing we do in arnis is start from a you-do-this-I-respond-like-this drill, like a forehand to the head blocked in a certain way, to something where the attack may be either a forehand or a backhand to the head. In one class we might start with the forehand only (1 possibility), then go to either (2 possibilities), then expand the drill to allow for either swing to the torso too (4 possibilities), then maybe add the legs (6 possibilities). There are lotsof ways to do this. Eventually we reach a point where I throw a technique from one of the set angles, you respond with a block, then counter, and I counter your counter, and we enter into free play until some counter is not countered.

As always...easier to show than describe!


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## Mekosho (Nov 14, 2005)

Repitition!!!!
Unconsious reaction, to react without thinking thru the entire progress is definatly the key to being a great martial artist. We have learned to tie our shoes in this manor, not thinking about the knot, but just simply tieing it and moving on, driving, imagine all the dead cats and dogs on the road if we drove with "consious thought" instead of just reacting as we are conditioned to do...again, repition is the key...


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## Seabrook (Nov 14, 2005)

Sparring against good opponents with various martial arts backgrounds.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2005)

Good posts!!  I agree, the best way to get good at something is by doing it over and over.  Ultimately thats where we want to get, where we don't have to think, just react.


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## arnisador (Nov 14, 2005)

Agreed--muscle memory is built by repetition. Like an iaidoka doing 1000 cuts a day, or a boxer spending hours on bagwork.


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## eyebeams (Nov 14, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Sparring against good opponents with various martial arts backgrounds.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



No no. That's much too sensible.


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 14, 2005)

i think it also depends on what it is you want to the response to be for.
sparring does indeed help with spontaneous action, but it can also lead to a game of tag with no commitment.
if on the other hand you're trying to build a natural response for self defense, you have to do it from that kind of angle, with the intent of stopping the attack and restraining the attacker.
some might call this method BS.....because who wants to restrain their attacker? but, if you can get your attacker into a position of restraint quickly, it opens doors for other things.


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## MJS (Nov 15, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think it also depends on what it is you want to the response to be for.
> sparring does indeed help with spontaneous action, but it can also lead to a game of tag with no commitment.
> if on the other hand you're trying to build a natural response for self defense, you have to do it from that kind of angle, with the intent of stopping the attack and restraining the attacker.
> some might call this method BS.....because who wants to restrain their attacker? but, if you can get your attacker into a position of restraint quickly, it opens doors for other things.


 
Good post!  As for the sparring...I agree if we're talking more about the point game.  I can see that as more of a game of tag, as you mention.  I'd think though, that if we changed our goals during sparring, making it more fluid, rather than stop and go, adding in some clinch work, takedowns, etc., it would help a bit more than point.

As for the SD...that was what I had originally geared this thread for.  You bring up a good point on the restraint though.  Not every SD situation is going to require a knee break.  If the problem can be solved with a restraint, then IMO, we succeeded in defending ourselves!

Mike


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## jonah2 (Nov 15, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> ....sparring does indeed help with spontaneous action, but it can also lead to a game of tag with no commitment....


 
Good point sir,

This is something my instructor brought up recently. He pointed out that we all get into habits sparring each other in class. He pointed out that some of us tend to attack on a centre line and not so much on the good ol swingers. He got us to try and off load a bit of the trained attacks and use a bit more of the pub stuff, in essence also attack how an un trained person would. It was a good wake up call.

jonah


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## kenposikh (Nov 15, 2005)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Good point sir,
> 
> This is something my instructor brought up recently. He pointed out that we all get into habits sparring each other in class. He pointed out that some of us tend to attack on a centre line and not so much on the good ol swingers. He got us to try and off load a bit of the trained attacks and use a bit more of the pub stuff, in essence also attack how an un trained person would. It was a good wake up call.
> 
> jonah


 
Good point all in all the other option is to do what I and my students have done and that is to train in a pub tables chairs bar stools glasses it's amazing how your checking the storm differs when a bar stool is flying through the air at you cos the guy or girl hasn't got any control of it. 

Amrik


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 15, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Agreed--muscle memory is built by repetition. Like an iaidoka doing 1000 cuts a day, or a boxer spending hours on bagwork.



I agree with this in the same context I like the philosophy that only proper practice produces the correct results. If you practice something wrong 1,000 times, you'll get it 100% wrong when it counts.


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Being able to react without having to think about what you're doing is IMO, a goal that we should all strive to reach. When we're first learning, we of course know what the attack will be, and we'll respond accordingly. However, we're not going to have that luxury when we are outside of the dojo.
> 
> What drills do you do to help with building that spontaneous reaction?
> 
> ...


This is what I'm striving for. I believe it takes alot of repetition to get things into muscle memory. 

That's what forms are good for. Forms teach fighting by getting moves into muscle memory. In fight it won't be like doing a form in the order, but by practicing forms you're teaching your body to string techniques together. Moves are ingrained to muscle memory and all of sudden you'll find yourself apply something during sparring, or whatever, without thinking about it and realize that move is from one of your forms. 
I know alot of people don't like forms, but you have understand the importance of forms in teaching muscle memory and realize forms teach you how to fight. (It helps to have an instructor who teaches you the application in your forms.) The cool thing is I've seen more advanced students use techniques from our forms in sparring that has come out as muscle memory during the situation.

In addition to practicing forms you have to spar frequently. Again, it's practice.

We occasionally do control move drills similar to what you mentioned. One person stands facing the wall and there are 2 lines of people on either side, forming an alley-like passage. A person is pre-chosen to grab. The person facing the wall turns around and begins walking down the passage without knowing by whom or how they will be grabbed or if they will be grabbed coming or going or what pass they will be grabbed on. The chosen person decides when to grab and the other person then performs an appropriate control move for the situation.

I can't wait til the day comes when I'm sparring and muscle memory takes over, and better yet, when those reactions become part of my every day awareness.


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## MJS (Nov 16, 2005)

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> We occasionally do control move drills similar to what you mentioned. One person stands facing the wall and there are 2 lines of people on either side, forming an alley-like passage. A person is pre-chosen to grab. The person facing the wall turns around and begins walking down the passage without knowing by whom or how they will be grabbed or if they will be grabbed coming or going or what pass they will be grabbed on. The chosen person decides when to grab and the other person then performs an appropriate control move for the situation.


 
I like that!! Sounds like a great drill that will really aid in building a reaction without the person having the chance to think!!

Mike


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## pete (Nov 16, 2005)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> I agree with this in the same context I like the philosophy that only proper practice produces the correct results. If you practice something wrong 1,000 times, you'll get it 100% wrong when it counts.


  i couldn't disagree more... 

while there are definite 'wrongs' in all martial arts, there are generally several versions of what is 'correct', and even that should evolve over each individual's own timeline.  for example, a person practicing a form at yellow belt correctly would look, feel, and 'be' totally different from that same form practiced after a few years in the art. 

i believe you should practice based on your current level of understanding, and as that changes to make adjustments in your practice. do not worry that you've spent all this time practicing something 'wrong' 1000 times, because its not all or nothing... you musth've done something good amidst your 'mistakes'.

i like the story in infinite insights about the guy doing the ice scupture of the elephant. someone asks him how he is able to shape it from a block of ice, and the sculptor says he just removes anything thats not elephant.

waiting to achieve perfect practice, is nothing but procrastination.  just do the best with where you are, and keep removing things that aren't elephant.

pete.


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## Zoran (Nov 16, 2005)

I agree with Pete. In my mind, it's all about getting them to be able to use the tools we give them as soon as possible. Using drills that promote spontaneity is key to get a student there early on in their training. Even if they may not do it the best way, as long as they can use what they have been taught so far in their training. 

One of the things I find students have problems with is adaptablity. Being able to adapt is a part of being spontaneous. You'll see the lack of this in students, or yourself if you are at the point, when they freeze or keep trying to make something work that just wont. This is were the instructor needs to step in and help. You need to drill it into them that when something doesn't work the first time, it won't work a second, third or forth. Stopping what you are doing will also create problems. 

I tell my students if something doesn't work the first time, don't stop or try to make it happen. Do something else, even if it's wrong, becuase I can fix that more easily than getting you out of the other if it becomes a habit.


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2005)

Everyone is posting some great replies! Thank you!!

If anyone has some drills that you do either in your school or in your personal training, please feel free to post them.

Mike


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## hongkongfooey (Jan 4, 2006)

I had a problem just this past Monday with spontaneous reaction. We were working Delayed Sword(against a punch)and Sword of Destruction. We weren't supposed to tell our opponet what the attack would be, we were to respond to the attack. Well everytime I saw the punch come at me in Delayed Sword, I responded with thinking with the defense for Attacking Mace. I guess I shouldn't complain, because I reacted to the attack, but it was frustrating none the less. Ah, the pains of retraining after a very long layoff.

HKF


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## Rick Wade (Jan 4, 2006)

One of the exercises I have been thinking of is this:

You get 9 guys 
1 guy in the middle and 8 on the 8 lines of attack.  You assign random numbers to the attackers they attack with a random attack and the guy in the middle defends against it.  As soon as the attacker gets throttled he gets up and gets out and repeat the process.  that away there is no body pile up but yet the attacks come quick enough so that the defender doesn't have time to think about what he is going to do.  

I believe that this exercise will not only work innovative spontaneity but also foot maneuvers.  With the sense of urgency you wouldn't let a guy sink into a good bear hug.

Just a thought what do you guys think?


V/R

Rick


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## hongkongfooey (Jan 4, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> One of the exercises I have been thinking of is this:
> 
> You get 9 guys
> 1 guy in the middle and 8 on the 8 lines of attack. You assign random numbers to the attackers they attack with a random attack and the guy in the middle defends against it. As soon as the attacker gets throttled he gets up and gets out and repeat the process. that away there is no body pile up but yet the attacks come quick enough so that the defender doesn't have time to think about what he is going to do.
> ...


 
Sounds fun


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## Kalicombat (Jan 5, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> One of the exercises I have been thinking of is this:
> 
> You get 9 guys
> 1 guy in the middle and 8 on the 8 lines of attack. You assign random numbers to the attackers they attack with a random attack and the guy in the middle defends against it. As soon as the attacker gets throttled he gets up and gets out and repeat the process. that away there is no body pile up but yet the attacks come quick enough so that the defender doesn't have time to think about what he is going to do.
> ...


 
Isn't this the 'Bull In The Ring' drill that has been being done for at least the last 30 years? We used to do this in our Isshinryu class when I was 10. It is a great drill, and it does build spontaneity.

Gary C.


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## Rick Wade (Jan 5, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Isn't this the 'Bull In The Ring' drill that has been being done for at least the last 30 years? We used to do this in our Isshinryu class when I was 10. It is a great drill, and it does build spontaneity.
> 
> Gary C.


 
OK now it has a name.

Cool  I have never seen it execpt in football practice.  but that also goes to show there are no new techniques only version of old weather you have ssen them or not.  

I haven't tried it yet But I will at our next class.  

Do you guys still practice this?


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## Ceicei (Jan 5, 2006)

I've also heard it called "Ring of Fire".

- Ceicei


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## Rick Wade (Jan 5, 2006)

OK am I like the only guy in the Martial Arts realm that hasn't seen this or a form of this.

That's it I am starting over at white belt.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 5, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> What drills do you do to help with building that spontaneous reaction?


 
I know it sounds a little hokey, but when I'm in the line at Starbucks (or elsewhere), I visualize the people attacking me and imagine my response accordingly. Usually I focus on target areas such as the knees, solar plexus, etc. This helps because I'm not wasting time simply waiting for my turn and also because my targeting has improved markedly. Practicing a low-sidekick to the knees on a bag or BOB is great, but people are of varying heights and real world targeting helps a lot in being able to quickly respond at the appropriate height. Also, you start noticing things like this guy's heavy jacket makes a body shot less effective or this person over here, at the angle they are at, would be easily dropped by a shovel hook, etc.


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## MJS (Jan 5, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I know it sounds a little hokey, but when I'm in the line at Starbucks (or elsewhere), I visualize the people attacking me and imagine my response accordingly. Usually I focus on target areas such as the knees, solar plexus, etc. This helps because I'm not wasting time simply waiting for my turn and also because my targeting has improved markedly. Practicing a low-sidekick to the knees on a bag or BOB is great, but people are of varying heights and real world targeting helps a lot in being able to quickly respond at the appropriate height. Also, you start noticing things like this guy's heavy jacket makes a body shot less effective or this person over here, at the angle they are at, would be easily dropped by a shovel hook, etc.


 
I don't think its hokey at all.  I've actually found myself doing the same thing.  Looking at your surroundings, being aware, etc. is a good thing in my opinion.  I've found myself glancing at the people in the area, randomly picking someone, and thinking about how I would defend myself against this person.


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## Blindside (Jan 5, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> OK am I like the only guy in the Martial Arts realm that hasn't seen this or a form of this.
> 
> That's it I am starting over at white belt.


 
Apparently. 

We usually start this drill with orange belts, and while we don't have a name for this drill, I have also heard it called a "dragon circle."  

Lamont


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## jdinca (Jan 5, 2006)

We call that drill "you get in the middle, everyone else make a circle around him". 

Repetition, repetition, repetition in everything you do. Perfect practice makes perfect but what is "perfect" is determined by the students ability level. Detail gets finer as the student gets better. Sparring is a big help here as is reaction drills.


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## Navarre (Jan 5, 2006)

We've done the "guy in the middle" drill for at least the 21 years I've been practicing. It is a good drill as well as adding some variety to training.

Good luck with your white belt training, Rick!  :ultracool


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## Navarre (Jan 5, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I know it sounds a little hokey, but when I'm in the line at Starbucks (or elsewhere), I visualize the people attacking me and imagine my response accordingly.


 
Be very careful when putting your visualized techniques into use. The people in line are desperate for caffeine. They'll jack you up!

I used to visualize my katas frequently throughout the day, even while taking notes in my college courses. It actually helped my execution in my karate class...and explains my low grades in college.


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2006)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I've also heard it called "Ring of Fire".


 
I never had the opportunity to study under Grandmaster Cash.

I've heard it called man in the middle or pickle in the middle. I've seen several variants of it. It's good for making you be aware of the 360 degrees of possible dangers.


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2006)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Be very careful when putting your visualized techniques into use. The people in line are desparate for caffeine. They'll jack you up!


 
I'm not a coffee drinker, but I do this all the time. Sometimes I'll be holding hands with my wife as walk in the mall and she'll notice that my arm is making small jerking movements, and she'll ask Who are you fighting now?

I especially try to do this as a I pass alleyways or other areas where an attack could come as a surprise or where I would be limited in my ability to retreat. I think it's good preparation!


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## jdinca (Jan 5, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I never had the opportunity to study under Grandmaster Cash.



:roflmao:


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## DavidCC (Jan 5, 2006)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I've also heard it called "Ring of Fire".
> 
> - Ceicei


 
When I was a yellow belt, we called it "Circle of Doom" because it was very intimidating.  Now I don't have name for it other than "Get'em!"


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## IWishToLearn (Jan 10, 2006)

I just got back to this thread & saw the responses to my quote about doing something 1,000 times incorrectly. I must be misinterpreting the responses, because it really sounds like we've got the same conceptual idea, just different approach to the same theory.  Anywho.  I like the Bull In the Ring drill, and the IKCA has a similar drill called the Circle of Humiliation/Semi-Circle.  I also like to introduce extremely controlled sparring at an early level to introduce some of the spontanaeity, while eliminating their fear of being really cleaned out. Up until Orange/Purpleish the only people that underbelts spar with are the Black Belt Instructors who are not allowed to make contact, just to make people get used to seeing things coming at them and respond accordingly. Depending on the student, at Orange/Purple level they're usually more than able to use their basics at an acceptable level to work light sparring with each other, moving up the contact scale accordingly as they progress.


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## Doc (Jan 10, 2006)

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> This is what I'm striving for. I believe it takes alot of repetition to get things into muscle memory.
> 
> That's what forms are good for. Forms teach fighting by getting moves into muscle memory. In fight it won't be like doing a form in the order, but by practicing forms you're teaching your body to string techniques together. Moves are ingrained to muscle memory and all of sudden you'll find yourself apply something during sparring, or whatever, without thinking about it and realize that move is from one of your forms.
> I know alot of people don't like forms, but you have understand the importance of forms in teaching muscle memory and realize forms teach you how to fight. (It helps to have an instructor who teaches you the application in your forms.) The cool thing is I've seen more advanced students use techniques from our forms in sparring that has come out as muscle memory during the situation.
> ...


That may happen but the methods you speak of are not likely to yield a practical spontaneous street repsonse. Forms definitely not. The body doesn't work that way or learn that way.


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## guitarac311 (Jan 10, 2006)

it has been said that doing something 2000 times makes it become a natural reaction, much like puttting your hands infront of you when you fall, i think with a combination of sparring and the combo strings, that should develop a good natural reaction


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## Franc0 (Jan 10, 2006)

We have a drill called "The D/A (Defender/Attacker) sack". One person stands in the middle of the room (Defender), with three others standing about six feet away at the 9, 12 & 3 o'clock positions (The Attackers). We then place a thick black sack (or pillow case) over the defenders head. The defender has a mouthpeice, elbow and knee pads & thin gloves on, usually Harbingers, while the attackers wear head cages & heavy boxing gloves. Right before I yank the sack off the defenders head, I'll point to a particular attacker who will attack full speed with whatever they like, usually a sucker type punch to the face. This really helps to build no-nonsense spontaneous reactions, and our crew really likes this drill.

FM


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## Doc (Jan 10, 2006)

masterfinger said:
			
		

> We have a drill called "The D/A (Defender/Attacker) sack". One person stands in the middle of the room (Defender), with three others standing about six feet away at the 9, 12 & 3 o'clock positions (The Attackers). We then place a thick black sack (or pillow case) over the defenders head. The defender has a mouthpeice, elbow and knee pads & thin gloves on, usually Harbingers, while the attackers wear head cages & heavy boxing gloves. Right before I yank the sack off the defenders head, I'll point to a particular attacker who will attack full speed with whatever they like, usually a sucker type punch to the face. This really helps to build no-nonsense spontaneous reactions, and our crew really likes this drill.
> 
> FM


The same drill is used by certain military special forces. It teaches spontineity but not proper technique.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 10, 2006)

I'm glad you are arguing against this stuff because I didn't even know where to start. The techs aren't tools of combat but tools to study and improve your motion with varried resistance. Searching your memory for the right tech out of 154 and spontenaity do not mix. You start with a plan of action and let the eight considerations of combat mold the tech. At that point you are taking care of the concerns of the moment and not picking an choosing between tech ideas. Proper motion is of higher concern than having a Quai Chang Cane moment at every instant for proper tech choice.
Sean


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## Doc (Jan 10, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> I'm glad you are arguing against this stuff because I didn't even know where to start. The techs aren't tools of combat but tools to study and improve your motion with varried resistance. Searching your memory for the right tech out of 154 and spontenaity do not mix. You start with a plan of action and let the eight considerations of combat mold the tech. At that point you are taking care of the concerns of the moment and not picking an choosing between tech ideas. Proper motion is of higher concern than having a Quai Chang Cane moment at every instant for proper tech choice.
> Sean


I think you may have said it better than I. Techniques are "ideas" that when taught properly along with realistic attacks, will be absorbed into our unconcious with varied responses triggered by the external stimuli. If done properly, these responses should nullify the threat reasonably quickly, but remember "An untrained spontaneous response will always be the muscle memory the body knows best." - Ron Chap&#233;l

"Speed and spontaneous responses are a product of physical and mental familiarity." - Ron Chap&#233;l


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