# Aikido vs. suspect seated in car



## Oni_Kadaki

An interesting scenario came up while I was doing some law enforcement training this past week. Specifically, a fellow student asked the instructor how he would get a non-compliant suspect out of a vehicle. The instructor, who specializes in firearms, not hand-to-hand, suggested an armbar, and I chimed in the nikkyo might be effective for pain compliance. A classmate immediately shot that down, saying that he would uppercut someone who tried it on him. 

Issues of power-generation for the seated person aside (if I'm not mistaken, you can't really generate power with your lower body for a strike if you're seated in a driver's seat), does anyone have any training or experience in using Aikido in this scenario? We did a practice run, and I found it extremely difficult because our usual footwork is severely limited by the presence of the car.


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## drop bear

Gift wrap.


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## drop bear

Coach is involved. I will do a video.


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## drop bear




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## Gerry Seymour

Oni_Kadaki said:


> An interesting scenario came up while I was doing some law enforcement training this past week. Specifically, a fellow student asked the instructor how he would get a non-compliant suspect out of a vehicle. The instructor, who specializes in firearms, not hand-to-hand, suggested an armbar, and I chimed in the nikkyo might be effective for pain compliance. A classmate immediately shot that down, saying that he would uppercut someone who tried it on him.
> 
> Issues of power-generation for the seated person aside (if I'm not mistaken, you can't really generate power with your lower body for a strike if you're seated in a driver's seat), does anyone have any training or experience in using Aikido in this scenario? We did a practice run, and I found it extremely difficult because our usual footwork is severely limited by the presence of the car.


Unfortunately none of my old training partners who might have experience with this are current training partners. I'll try to reach out to a couple of them if I can find their contact info.

My thought off the top of my head is that it's pretty situational. I'm not wild about how nikkyo ties up both hands (if you release either, you lose control). If it showed up like a gift, sure, use it. 

I think the larger shoulder movement (their shoulder) that shows up in the middle of ikkyo is a better starting point for removing them. I don't know if the wrist control is considered part of ikkyo (different aiki system), but I'd include it if you can get to the hand. That'd be the starting point for my experimentation, if it was me.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Gift wrap.


Can you put that in context of the car removal? This looks like a finish after they've been taken down, regardless of where they started.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


>


So, bring 5 guys and a ninja? I like this plan. I'm excited about this plan.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Can you put that in context of the car removal? This looks like a finish after they've been taken down, regardless of where they started.



I was going to do a video but was too knackered.

Basically push the near arm away from you Secure the arm in the gift wrap and then just tip them out the car.

There are tricks and traps for getting the far arm as well. (Which hopefully i can pull that arm towards me as they reach to defend the gift wrap.)Which would be nice if you can do it.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I was going to do a video but was too knackered.
> 
> Basically push the near arm away from you Secure the arm in the gift wrap and then just tip them out the car.
> 
> There are tricks and traps for getting the far arm as well. (Which hopefully i can pull that arm towards me as they reach to defend the gift wrap.)Which would be nice if you can do it.
> 
> View attachment 22381


If you get a chance to make that video, I'd be interested in seeing it. I'm having trouble picturing the transition (probably just different terminology leading me astray).


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## jobo

Oni_Kadaki said:


> An interesting scenario came up while I was doing some law enforcement training this past week. Specifically, a fellow student asked the instructor how he would get a non-compliant suspect out of a vehicle. The instructor, who specializes in firearms, not hand-to-hand, suggested an armbar, and I chimed in the nikkyo might be effective for pain compliance. A classmate immediately shot that down, saying that he would uppercut someone who tried it on him.
> 
> Issues of power-generation for the seated person aside (if I'm not mistaken, you can't really generate power with your lower body for a strike if you're seated in a driver's seat), does anyone have any training or experience in using Aikido in this scenario? We did a practice run, and I found it extremely difficult because our usual footwork is severely limited by the presence of the car.


getting someone out of a car, that clinging on to the steering wheel, is extremely difficult, your going to have to break the grip on at least one of the hands, which then becomes a test of strength, best solution  take the keys out, and hand cuff him to the wheel, then let nature take its course or spray him and shut the door or as your class mate said, punch him till he raises a hand in defence


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## drop bear




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## drop bear




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## drop bear

The car was a lot easier because I could smoosh him in to the back seat. Where I was sort of holding him up doing it on the weight bench.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> The car was a lot easier because I could smoosh him in to the back seat. Where I was sort of holding him up doing it on the weight bench.


Thanks - that makes more sense than what I was trying to picture. I like the immediate control of the same-side arm.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


>


think ththe could be easily defeated if he held his hand over the seat belt catch ?


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> think ththe could be easily defeated if he held his hand over the seat belt catch ?



Possibly. 

The best thing for me is if he goes to fight me off because his hand comes across.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Possibly.
> 
> The best thing for me is if he goes to fight me off because his hand comes across.


not to be ironic, but try it again whilst he actively resist you by clinging to the steering wheel


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## Buka

There’s a nifty way to get them out with a wooden baton. Fast, too.

I’ll try to take some pics later when somebody else is around.


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> not to be ironic, but try it again whilst he actively resist you by clinging to the steering wheel



I didn't want to break the guy or the car.

That near hand where I am putting my whole body in to leveraging the front arm off the wheel feels pretty solid. 

If I can get the far arm straight. (And I struggled a bit) I can apply an arm bar by pulling the elbow. So if he is hanging on with that far arm. I can start reefing that straight arm bar until he lets go.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> There’s a nifty way to get them out with a wooden baton. Fast, too.
> 
> I’ll try to take some pics later when somebody else is around.


I look forward to that.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I didn't want to break the guy or the car.
> 
> That near hand where I am putting my whole body in to leveraging the front arm off the wheel feels pretty solid.
> 
> If I can get the far arm straight. (And I struggled a bit) I can apply an arm bar by pulling the elbow. So if he is hanging on with that far arm. I can start reefing that straight arm bar until he lets go.


i haven't tried it, but it seems like a grip on the steering wheel might make that arm bar easier than a free arm (at least temporarily). What do you think?


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> i haven't tried it, but it seems like a grip on the steering wheel might make that arm bar easier than a free arm (at least temporarily). What do you think?



The more I pull him out the more that far arm goes straight. 




 

Hence the sneaky underhook. Which I am a bit proud of.


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## drop bear

drop bear said:


> I was going to do a video but was too knackered.
> 
> Basically push the near arm away from you Secure the arm in the gift wrap and then just tip them out the car.
> 
> There are tricks and traps for getting the far arm as well. (Which hopefully i can pull that arm towards me as they reach to defend the gift wrap.)Which would be nice if you can do it.
> 
> View attachment 22381




I was going for this. But couldn't get it properly.


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## Buka

gpseymour said:


> I look forward to that.



Okay, I hope I can express this properly with pics instead of a video.

If the door isn't open, or you don't want the door open for whatever reason - 

 If necessary, you could use this motion to break the window with a wooden baton. If the window is open you stab the baton into the seat back on the far side of the suspects head.


Then with your other hand, you cross grip the baton.





Then roll your wrists downward...




Then step back with either leg, lowering your center of gravity, and RIP that son of a beach right through the window.

You'ld be surprised how fast even a big man will come through that window. Is it safe? No, of course not. Is it violent and could get you into trouble? Undoubtedly.

But it works just fine. Haven't had anyone resist it yet, even when they tried.

Moral of the story, if the Federales instruct you to get out of the car, you should probably get out of the car.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Okay, I hope I can express this properly with pics instead of a video.
> 
> If the door isn't open, or you don't want the door open for whatever reason - View attachment 22389 If necessary, you could use this motion to break the window with a wooden baton. If the window is open you stab the baton into the seat back on the far side of the suspects head.
> 
> 
> Then with your other hand, you cross grip the baton.
> 
> View attachment 22390
> 
> Then roll your wrists downward...
> 
> View attachment 22391
> Then step back with either leg, lowering your center of gravity, and RIP that son of a beach right through the window.
> 
> You'ld be surprised how fast even a big man will come through that window. Is it safe? No, of course not. Is it violent and could get you into trouble? Undoubtedly.
> 
> But it works just fine. Haven't had anyone resist it yet, even when they tried.
> 
> Moral of the story, if the Federales instruct you to get out of the car, you should probably get out of the car.


I like that. Basic collar choke mechanics, with a stick, then bodyweight lead. And, yes, the pictures do give enough info.


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## Oni_Kadaki

Thanks for all the replies guys!


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## jks9199

Oni_Kadaki said:


> An interesting scenario came up while I was doing some law enforcement training this past week. Specifically, a fellow student asked the instructor how he would get a non-compliant suspect out of a vehicle. The instructor, who specializes in firearms, not hand-to-hand, suggested an armbar, and I chimed in the nikkyo might be effective for pain compliance. A classmate immediately shot that down, saying that he would uppercut someone who tried it on him.
> 
> Issues of power-generation for the seated person aside (if I'm not mistaken, you can't really generate power with your lower body for a strike if you're seated in a driver's seat), does anyone have any training or experience in using Aikido in this scenario? We did a practice run, and I found it extremely difficult because our usual footwork is severely limited by the presence of the car.


You can absolutely generate power from the lower body while seated...  The steering wheel makes it trickier in a car, but it can be done.

As to removing someone from a car involuntarily... there are several ways that I know.  A key factor many techniques I've seen taught miss, though, is the seatbelt...  You ain't getting them out if the belt is still latched.


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## Buka

jks9199 said:


> You can absolutely generate power from the lower body while seated...  The steering wheel makes it trickier in a car, but it can be done.
> 
> As to removing someone from a car involuntarily... there are several ways that I know.  A key factor many techniques I've seen taught miss, though, is the seatbelt...  You ain't getting them out if the belt is still latched.



True, true. Twice I had the suspect belted in. As I started to pull I told him to release it or his head would come off. Each one did very quickly. They fumbled a bit, but they got it. The second one I actually let go off his head as he promised to do whatever was asked of him. And he did.


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## JP3

If the noncompliant suspect is just sitting in the car, and the head/face/neck/chest/shoulder & arm are "exposed," and keeping in mind that he's noncompliant with a properly issued command to exit the vehicle and the officer involved was concerned with personal safety... why not simply use a taser? Zap. Open door. Flop out onto ground.


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## Buka

JP3 said:


> If the noncompliant suspect is just sitting in the car, and the head/face/neck/chest/shoulder & arm are "exposed," and keeping in mind that he's noncompliant with a properly issued command to exit the vehicle and the officer involved was concerned with personal safety... why not simply use a taser? Zap. Open door. Flop out onto ground.



I, personally, would love that. Unfortunately, none of the departments I've worked for, including the one I work for right now, have tasers.


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## JP3

Buka said:


> I, personally, would love that. Unfortunately, none of the departments I've worked for, including the one I work for right now, have tasers.


I'm surprised by that, actually.  I don't do LEO nor do I even attempt to play one on TV. I just assumed, and you know how that goes, that a Taser is automatically installed on all LEO utility belts at the factory or something. I suppose not though.

What do they want y'all to do? Just sit and wait... I know it's not just shoot the dude, even though stupidity might warrant that in some opinions.  Reaching into a vehicle seems to me to break a lot of rules. The martial kinds of rules, not legal ones.


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## jks9199

JP3 said:


> If the noncompliant suspect is just sitting in the car, and the head/face/neck/chest/shoulder & arm are "exposed," and keeping in mind that he's noncompliant with a properly issued command to exit the vehicle and the officer involved was concerned with personal safety... why not simply use a taser? Zap. Open door. Flop out onto ground.


Because that's not how the Taser really works...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Buka

JP3 said:


> I'm surprised by that, actually.  I don't do LEO nor do I even attempt to play one on TV. I just assumed, and you know how that goes, that a Taser is automatically installed on all LEO utility belts at the factory or something. I suppose not though.
> 
> What do they want y'all to do? Just sit and wait... I know it's not just shoot the dude, even though stupidity might warrant that in some opinions.  Reaching into a vehicle seems to me to break a lot of rules. The martial kinds of rules, not legal ones.



The whole reaching into the vehicle thing is from my previous life in Federal Law Enforcement. Here, we don't have batons. We don't have tasers. We don't have pepper spray. We don't have a Use of Force Continuum nor a Use of Force Policy. Perhaps the only Police Department in the country that doesn't. Apparently, we are to go from empty hand techniques to deadly force.

If I told you some of the procedures we are asked to follow (what they want us to do) you wouldn't believe me. Not because you might be doubting me, but because you would say "that's just fricken' nuts". And you would be one hundred percent correct.

And these things they want us to do are not even in writing. They are direct orders from above, verbally told to us in roll calls. Such is life on Planet Maui. The only thing I can say is it sure isn't boring.


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## Brian King

Oni_Kadaki said:


> An interesting scenario came up while I was doing some law enforcement training this past week. Specifically, a fellow student asked the instructor how he would get a non-compliant suspect out of a vehicle. The instructor, who specializes in firearms, not hand-to-hand, suggested an armbar, and I chimed in the nikkyo might be effective for pain compliance. A classmate immediately shot that down, saying that he would uppercut someone who tried it on him.
> 
> Issues of power-generation for the seated person aside (if I'm not mistaken, you can't really generate power with your lower body for a strike if you're seated in a driver's seat), does anyone have any training or experience in using Aikido in this scenario? We did a practice run, and I found it extremely difficult because our usual footwork is severely limited by the presence of the car.



@Oni_Kadaki
Congratulations Oni_Kadaki on stretching your training and experience! Putting theory to the test is ALWAYS beneficial. Training in and around vehicles (Auto’s, Planes, Trains, and Buses) has many benefits and can be VERY interesting. It teaches how to do the work in confined spaces while promoting comfort and intimate understanding of the interior and exterior of the vehicle and all its sharp, pointy, dense, and tangling features. All these various features can be used offensively and defensively and can provide many options. It forces movements to be smaller. It allows an opening of the mind to possibilities of improvised weapons. All obstacles and edges are really opportunities with the right experience and mindset.


 Reaching into a car has many risks (some obvious and some not so much) that should be weighed and taken into consideration prior to the need arising. Considerations such as. Is the car running? Is the vehicle in park? Is the driver’s side window completely lowered, partially lowered, or completely raised? Is the driver’s side door unlocked? Is the driver’s door opened? Are there multiple persons in the vehicle? Are there children in the vehicle? Are there animals (dogs) in the vehicle? Are the subjects belted? Is the subject under the influence of alcohol and or drugs? Is the subject mentally ill and having issues? Is the subject possibly suicidal? Is the subject possible armed (or within reach) with a firearm, edged weapon or improvised weapon? Do you have help that can keep the subject and other passengers under gun while going hands on or are you by yourself?


Taking someone out of the vehicle also has considerations. Is the vehicle running? Is the transmission in Park? Is there a safe place for the subject to ‘land’? Is there place for the vehicle to ‘land’ should it be rolling/running? Do you wish to take the person out so that they land on their stomach on the ground next to the vehicle or have them stepping out and walking under your control? Do you want the person to land immediately next to the vehicle or a few feet away? Are there obstacles/opportunities immediately in the area, i.e. Curbs, fire hydrants, traffic signs, mailboxes?


If the subject is gripping the steering wheel with death grips, then they are not reaching for weapons. You will have to deal with it eventually but two hands on the wheel gives you time in many cases, they aren’t fighting only resisting by not being cooperative. If you must reach in to turn off vehicle or to start the process for removing seat belt gaining head control and turning the subjects head away from you is very beneficial. It limits their visual and biting cues and screws with their horizon references. That physical contact can be either soft or hard by your choice but either soft or hard it will also give you loads of tactile information about the subject and what is going on with them.


Next time you are training in and around a vehicle Oni_Kadaki look at the hard surfaces around a window and door. For the door there are three surfaces that are very useful. The vertical line (post between drivers’ door and rear passengers door) and horizontal (the floor and ceiling edge of the cab) Both can be used to effectively motivate and control the subject. Think arm bar or leg bar using the mentioned surfaces as the pivot/pain point. If the subject is gripping the steering wheel with all their might saying things like “No, I am not getting out- f-you” this is awesome and an opportunity. If they are focused on gripping and not letting go of the steering wheel no matter what, that is entirely what their brain is focused on. This often gives you the ability to simply lift their near side leg up and out the door before they know what is happening. Using your own leg/body and with their leg now between you and their vehicle use the vertical edge to bar the leg while using one of your arms to help guide and steer their head up and out. Takes a practice time or two but once you have it, you have it. It also gives one less foot to become entangled in the floor pedals. There are many pulls and pins that can be used and explored.


Always beware when pulling a person out that they might come out weaponized and shooting/stabbing. Beware when you can’t see both of their hands, beware when the resistance is not logical (your hand accidently covers their mouth and nose and rather than their reaching for your arms their hands head for their waist, ankle or back, for example) Be ready and willing at all times to disengage and practice methods of doing so (for example you see weapon on or near subject or they engage the drive on the vehicle). While disengaging practice changing levels going to a low type of prone behind subjects’ vision and getting some limited cover from the vehicle. Beware disengaging and putting yourself into danger from passing vehicles or nearby obstacles. Practice drawing and possibly firing your own firearm while disengaging from contact. This isn’t range shooting but near and ugly.


While not an Aikido educational DVDS, the following Systema Car Fight film presents many ideas that you might want to explore. It is not just removing a person but includes working in and around the vehicle. There is a free preview that shows one nice example of using vertical edge…look quick as it looks like just a pull but isn’t. There is also a free teaching segment that is interesting.

Car Fight (DVD)


Good luck and keep up the good work


Regards

Brian King


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## Oni_Kadaki

Brian King said:


> @Oni_Kadaki
> Congratulations Oni_Kadaki on stretching your training and experience! Putting theory to the test is ALWAYS beneficial. Training in and around vehicles (Auto’s, Planes, Trains, and Buses) has many benefits and can be VERY interesting. It teaches how to do the work in confined spaces while promoting comfort and intimate understanding of the interior and exterior of the vehicle and all its sharp, pointy, dense, and tangling features. All these various features can be used offensively and defensively and can provide many options. It forces movements to be smaller. It allows an opening of the mind to possibilities of improvised weapons. All obstacles and edges are really opportunities with the right experience and mindset.
> 
> 
> Reaching into a car has many risks (some obvious and some not so much) that should be weighed and taken into consideration prior to the need arising. Considerations such as. Is the car running? Is the vehicle in park? Is the driver’s side window completely lowered, partially lowered, or completely raised? Is the driver’s side door unlocked? Is the driver’s door opened? Are there multiple persons in the vehicle? Are there children in the vehicle? Are there animals (dogs) in the vehicle? Are the subjects belted? Is the subject under the influence of alcohol and or drugs? Is the subject mentally ill and having issues? Is the subject possibly suicidal? Is the subject possible armed (or within reach) with a firearm, edged weapon or improvised weapon? Do you have help that can keep the subject and other passengers under gun while going hands on or are you by yourself?
> 
> 
> Taking someone out of the vehicle also has considerations. Is the vehicle running? Is the transmission in Park? Is there a safe place for the subject to ‘land’? Is there place for the vehicle to ‘land’ should it be rolling/running? Do you wish to take the person out so that they land on their stomach on the ground next to the vehicle or have them stepping out and walking under your control? Do you want the person to land immediately next to the vehicle or a few feet away? Are there obstacles/opportunities immediately in the area, i.e. Curbs, fire hydrants, traffic signs, mailboxes?
> 
> 
> If the subject is gripping the steering wheel with death grips, then they are not reaching for weapons. You will have to deal with it eventually but two hands on the wheel gives you time in many cases, they aren’t fighting only resisting by not being cooperative. If you must reach in to turn off vehicle or to start the process for removing seat belt gaining head control and turning the subjects head away from you is very beneficial. It limits their visual and biting cues and screws with their horizon references. That physical contact can be either soft or hard by your choice but either soft or hard it will also give you loads of tactile information about the subject and what is going on with them.
> 
> 
> Next time you are training in and around a vehicle Oni_Kadaki look at the hard surfaces around a window and door. For the door there are three surfaces that are very useful. The vertical line (post between drivers’ door and rear passengers door) and horizontal (the floor and ceiling edge of the cab) Both can be used to effectively motivate and control the subject. Think arm bar or leg bar using the mentioned surfaces as the pivot/pain point. If the subject is gripping the steering wheel with all their might saying things like “No, I am not getting out- f-you” this is awesome and an opportunity. If they are focused on gripping and not letting go of the steering wheel no matter what, that is entirely what their brain is focused on. This often gives you the ability to simply lift their near side leg up and out the door before they know what is happening. Using your own leg/body and with their leg now between you and their vehicle use the vertical edge to bar the leg while using one of your arms to help guide and steer their head up and out. Takes a practice time or two but once you have it, you have it. It also gives one less foot to become entangled in the floor pedals. There are many pulls and pins that can be used and explored.
> 
> 
> Always beware when pulling a person out that they might come out weaponized and shooting/stabbing. Beware when you can’t see both of their hands, beware when the resistance is not logical (your hand accidently covers their mouth and nose and rather than their reaching for your arms their hands head for their waist, ankle or back, for example) Be ready and willing at all times to disengage and practice methods of doing so (for example you see weapon on or near subject or they engage the drive on the vehicle). While disengaging practice changing levels going to a low type of prone behind subjects’ vision and getting some limited cover from the vehicle. Beware disengaging and putting yourself into danger from passing vehicles or nearby obstacles. Practice drawing and possibly firing your own firearm while disengaging from contact. This isn’t range shooting but near and ugly.
> 
> 
> While not an Aikido educational DVDS, the following Systema Car Fight film presents many ideas that you might want to explore. It is not just removing a person but includes working in and around the vehicle. There is a free preview that shows one nice example of using vertical edge…look quick as it looks like just a pull but isn’t. There is also a free teaching segment that is interesting.
> 
> Car Fight (DVD)
> 
> 
> Good luck and keep up the good work
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Brian King




Brian,

Thank you for your very comprehensive reply! Some of the points you made were indeed brought up at the training, such as using fixed surfaces as pivot points for armbars. You are also quite right in the sheer number of factors to consider! I work law enforcement part time, and my jurisdiction (a military base) is quite small, and people are generally smart enough to not try anything with us. As a result, I have less practical experience than many civilian LEOs do... Especially around vehicles!


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## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> The more I pull him out the more that far arm goes straight.
> 
> View attachment 22388
> 
> Hence the sneaky underhook. Which I am a bit proud of.


I very much like this approach but I am left handed so wear my gun on the left. I never liked going in to a car that deep leading with my gun side if I could avoid it. I have been known to grab a hand full of hair and start pulling. Hard. When you feel their resistance, you twist the neck toward the resistance which usually rotates the body so that you can get a rear choke and drag them out. Worked many times for me.


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## Deleted member 34973

First off, what is your reasoning for yanking a human being out of a car? That is the first question?

I hate the term suspect...in this day and age, it is mostly an excuse for abuse.


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## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> I very much like this approach but I am left handed so wear my gun on the left. I never liked going in to a car that deep leading with my gun side if I could avoid it. I have been known to grab a hand full of hair and start pulling. Hard. When you feel their resistance, you twist the neck toward the resistance which usually rotates the body so that you can get a rear choke and drag them out. Worked many times for me.



Under the near arm should make it safe as houses for gun retention though. 

You couldn't easily shoot the guy with your  left hand tied up though. 

I used to get frowny faces from my boss when I choked people.


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## drop bear

Guthrie said:


> First off, what is your reasoning for yanking a human being out of a car? That is the first question?
> 
> I hate the term suspect...in this day and age, it is mostly an excuse for abuse.



You want him out of the car and he wants to be in it. 

Ok. Paddies nightclub near where I live had a guy who was kicked out for being drunk but didn't like it. 

So he got in his car drove it in to the pub pinning a girl against the wall.

Not sure if he was dragged out or did a bolt. But he was grabbed.


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## Deleted member 34973

drop bear said:


> You want him out of the car and he wants to be in it.
> 
> Ok. Paddies nightclub near where I live had a guy who was kicked out for being drunk but didn't like it.
> 
> So he got in his car drove it in to the pub pinning a girl against the wall.
> 
> Not sure if he was dragged out or did a bolt. But he was grabbed.



That would be a good reason. A crime was committed, due to the fact a victim was involved.


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## Deleted member 34973

Also, I will say this, just wanting the person out of the car, is not a viable excuse to yank out anyone. An explanation is needed, otherwise, it simply one human being assaulting another.


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## dvcochran

Yes, but you are putting it in a very narrow frame. LEO are put in very, very different circumstances from the average person. It would not be unheard of for them to deal with people who Need to come out of a car for their own safety but refuse to for various reasons. 
It would be wrong for anyone to yank a person out of a car for no reason.


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## Brian King

Oni_Kadaki said:


> Brian,
> 
> Thank you for your very comprehensive reply! Some of the points you made were indeed brought up at the training, such as using fixed surfaces as pivot points for armbars. You are also quite right in the sheer number of factors to consider! I work law enforcement part time, and my jurisdiction (a military base) is quite small, and people are generally smart enough to not try anything with us. As a result, I have less practical experience than many civilian LEOs do... Especially around vehicles!



Awesome, and thank you for your service Oni_Kadaki. Do you have access to a motor pool and have good relationship with the personal running it? Get some older vehicles (that wont mind a new dent or three) and get a training partner or two and get to exploring. Get the DVD I referenced above and try things out. Use it for a starting point then add from your own experience and your training partners experiences for testing and exploration. Find a few things that work for you. The moving in and around vehicles and escaping from vehicles  portion on the DVD is very good information for anyone that spends a lot of time in vehicles, especially those that do so during bad weather conditions or at great speed. 
Regards
Brian King


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## Deleted member 34973

Maybe, but who determines "their own safety" I ask because this statement is very vague. I am not saying there are not reasons to do such a thing, but there literally hundreds of videos of people being yanked out, due to the fact that the Officer present, is just pissed at a person for exercising a right.

This is why an explanation is required. And, the very reason why some officers have been ambushed and killed.

People are just getting tired of these tactics, they really cause more harm than good.

One more thing, these officers put themselves in these situations. They are not necessarily put into them.

Things have got to change and I think they are. More corrupt police are being jailed, more often than not these days and that is a good thing.


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## dvcochran

Guthrie said:


> Maybe, but who determines "their own safety" I ask because this statement is very vague. I am not saying there are not reasons to do such a thing, but there literally hundreds of videos of people being yanked out, due to the fact that the Officer present, is just pissed at a person for exercising a right.
> 
> This is why an explanation is required. And, the very reason why some officers have been ambushed and killed.
> 
> People are just getting tired of these tactics, they really cause more harm than good.
> 
> One more thing, these officers put themselves in these situations. They are not necessarily put into them. Don't make it sound like that is the officers fault. You do remember the motto on the side of most patrol cars don't you? To Protect & Serve. That says it all.
> 
> Things have got to change and I think they are. More corrupt police are being jailed, more often than not these days and that is a good thing.


I feel you have a very biased attitude toward LEO. It would seem you have either had your own bad experience(s) with the law, really have no idea what you are talking about or what they do on a day to day basis.
I have seen some of the videos you mention. The majority of them do not give the viewer enough information to understand what is going on. Most of them don't even have sound so who are we to conclude what is going on? As with most things in life, a few bad cops have made it very hard for the millions of officers worldwide to do their job. Don't forget a very large portion of the people they deal with are involved in violent crimes.


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## drop bear

Guthrie said:


> Maybe, but who determines "their own safety" I ask because this statement is very vague. I am not saying there are not reasons to do such a thing, but there literally hundreds of videos of people being yanked out, due to the fact that the Officer present, is just pissed at a person for exercising a right.
> 
> This is why an explanation is required. And, the very reason why some officers have been ambushed and killed.
> 
> People are just getting tired of these tactics, they really cause more harm than good.
> 
> One more thing, these officers put themselves in these situations. They are not necessarily put into them.
> 
> Things have got to change and I think they are. More corrupt police are being jailed, more often than not these days and that is a good thing.



To a certain degree.

It is within the scope of their duties. So we can go in to the ins and outs of reasons to drag someone. I have done drunk drivers. And the occasional shop lifter.

I imagine police would need to arrest people. Unlicensed drivers, actual felons they have served warrants on and such.

But need them out of the car when they don't want to be out of the car pretty much covers the mechanical reasons.


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## drop bear

So just a quick reference where police might drag you out of your car. 

Say at the end of a police chase.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/bren...d-ride-ends-in-dramatic-arrest-ng-b881188963z


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## Deleted member 34973

dvcochran said:


> I feel you have a very biased attitude toward LEO. It would seem you have either had your own bad experience(s) with the law, really have no idea what you are talking about or what they do on a day to day basis.
> I have seen some of the videos you mention. The majority of them do not give the viewer enough information to understand what is going on. Most of them don't even have sound so who are we to conclude what is going on? As with most things in life, a few bad cops have made it very hard for the millions of officers worldwide to do their job. Don't forget a very large portion of the people they deal with are involved in violent crimes.



Not bias, an accounting, it is my duty and obligation as a citizen to keep a close eye on government officials. 

I actually have a few friends in Law Enforcement, guys I went grade school with. 

And, a few bad citizens, in Law Enforcement eyes, have made every free man woman and child, a suspect.

It is true that I personally have no use for them, that is not because of a bad experience, I just do not support their ideology.

It is bias, if I steal from a store, it is a criminal matter, if a store steals from me, it is a civil matter...that is a text book example of being bias.


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## Brian King

It can be difficult I understand but do try to keep politics out of the thread. 

Brian King


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## Deleted member 34973

Not sure this is politics.


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## dvcochran

Guthrie said:


> Not sure this is politics.


Agree. It is history.


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## Buka

Man, I am getting seriously offended in this thread. Somebody should lock this f'king thing up.


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## Gerry Seymour

*NOTICE TO ALL MEMBERS: *

Please keep politics out of the discussions, per the user guidelines. There are more appropriate forums for those discussions. Any continued political comments may result in a locked thread and/or warnings and points to members.

_______________
*Gerry Seymour*
@gpseymour
MartialTalk Moderator


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## Deleted member 34973

This thread has made me realize, that it is imperative, to train people to defend themselves against these types of techniques.


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## Buka

Sometimes people have to be removed from where they are.

Last time I did it, it was a matter of removing someone who was trying to block a foreign country's Consulate General's vehicle from moving. Which is a very big deal. The guy was just being a dick, he didn't even have a political motivation, he just had a buzz. But out he came, didn't get hurt, just scraped his elbow when he came out. But his eyes sure did get big while it happened.

Worked like a charm.


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## Brian King

Guthrie said:


> This thread has made me realize, that it is imperative, to train people to defend themselves against these types of techniques.



I'm curious, so I will ask. What specifically are you going to train people to do to defend themselves from these kinds of techniques?

Regards


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## drop bear

Brian King said:


> I'm curious, so I will ask. What specifically are you going to train people to do to defend themselves from these kinds of techniques?
> 
> Regards



I will do a video.


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## Deleted member 34973

Brian King said:


> I'm curious, so I will ask. What specifically are you going to train people to do to defend themselves from these kinds of techniques?
> 
> Regards


I am unable to comment, on this post due to the fact that my responses are seen as negative, and then marked as political.


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## pdg

Guthrie said:


> It is true that I personally have no use for them, that is not because of a bad experience, I just do not support their ideology.



I assume, given the context, that you are saying you have no need for the police.

So that would mean that if your car was stolen, you'd just say "meh" and write it off without calling the police?

Or if you or a loved one were assaulted, you'd not bother calling the police because hey, these things happen?

Or myriad other crimes against you or someone else, you'd just ignore it because the ideology of having a police force is something you disagree with?



Guthrie said:


> if a store steals from me



Huh? What now?

I've never seen a supermarket walk into someone's house and remove stuff, or pick their pockets. How do you define a store stealing from you?


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## Deleted member 34973

pdg said:


> I assume, given the context, that you are saying you have no need for the police.
> 
> So that would mean that if your car was stolen, you'd just say "meh" and write it off without calling the police?
> 
> Or if you or a loved one were assaulted, you'd not bother calling the police because hey, these things happen?
> 
> Or myriad other crimes against you or someone else, you'd just ignore it because the ideology of having a police force is something you disagree with?
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? What now?
> 
> I've never seen a supermarket walk into someone's house and remove stuff, or pick their pockets. How do you define a store stealing from you?


Again, I can not answer questions from this thread, as my answers are seen and will be seen as political.


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## pdg

Brian King said:


> I'm curious, so I will ask. What specifically are you going to train people to do to defend themselves from these kinds of techniques?



I have a perfect defence.

What I do (and have done every time) is if a cop asks me to get out of my car, I get out.

Easy and pretty much guaranteed to stop the officer dragging me from my vehicle.


I can see two common reasons why they would want me out of the car:

I have committed, or am about to commit, a crime of some sort.

They are looking for someone who has committed a crime of some sort.


Any other reason is so uncommon as to be ignored.

In the first case, I should be removed from my vehicle and arrested.

In the second, I don't want criminals wandering the streets so if I comply and make the act of eliminating me from their enquiries fast and easy then it's that bit closer to them getting who they want.


Reasons to refuse to get out?

I've committed a crime and don't want to be caught.

I have some sort of pompous and arrogant desire to prove that "nobody tells me what to do" and I think the best way to demonstrate that fact - and defend my civil liberties - is by being an utter dick.


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## pdg

Guthrie said:


> Again, I can not answer questions from this thread, as my answers are seen and will be seen as political.



Pm me if you want.

You obviously have reasons you feel are important enough to share.


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## Deleted member 34973

pdg said:


> Pm me if you want.
> 
> You obviously have reasons you feel are important enough to share.


No thank you, I have found it imperative not to answer any more questions concerning the motives of LEO.


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## jks9199

Guthrie said:


> This thread has made me realize, that it is imperative, to train people to defend themselves against these types of techniques.


It's definitely something to think about in terms of car-jackings or abductions... but in terms of law enforcement, I'm going to strongly suggest you look into why Marc Macyoung sums up the question of defending yourself against an arrest as "Not here, not now, not you."  Because the odds are very good that the cops in the US WILL win on the scene and remove you from the car, and resisting arrest doesn't lead anywhere good...


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## Deleted member 34973

jks9199 said:


> It's definitely something to think about in terms of car-jackings or abductions... but in terms of law enforcement, I'm going to strongly suggest you look into why Marc Macyoung sums up the question of defending yourself against an arrest as "Not here, not now, not you."  Because the odds are very good that the cops in the US WILL win on the scene and remove you from the car, and resisting arrest doesn't lead anywhere good...



Really folks, I got nothing more to say to you concerning this subject.

It's politics, and can't be discussed, I am sure the warning was meant for the others as well. Right moderators?


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## Gerry Seymour

Guthrie said:


> Really folks, I got nothing more to say to you concerning this subject.
> 
> It's politics, and can't be discussed, I am sure the warning was meant for the others as well. Right moderators?


If you don't want to discuss it, there's no need to post. Folks can still make their comments (as long as they, too, stay out of the politics).


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## pdg

I don't really think anything said so far is political, maybe I missed something?

If you're saying that you disagree with the presence of a police force because you feel the government is dictating their actions, but that the police under a different government would make you feel all warm and fluffy, then that's political.

However, if you're saying that you just have a fundamental disagreement with having any laws or enforcement thereof, that's just being more than a bit naive.

If I disagree with a law, then I can campaign to change it, or move. My choice to remain in a society where those laws are present doesn't give me any right at all to flout those laws just because I don't like them.


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## Deleted member 34973

gpseymour said:


> If you don't want to discuss it, there's no need to post. Folks can still make their comments (as long as they, too, stay out of the politics).


Got it, I'll ignore the alerts since I can't ignore the moderators.

But, make no mistake, their comments are political you just agree with them.

But ignoring is much easier.


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## Deleted member 34973

pdg said:


> I don't really think anything said so far is political, maybe I missed something?
> 
> If you're saying that you disagree with the presence of a police force because you feel the government is dictating their actions, but that the police under a different government would make you feel all warm and fluffy, then that's political.
> 
> However, if you're saying that you just have a fundamental disagreement with having any laws or enforcement thereof, that's just being more than a bit naive.
> 
> If I disagree with a law, then I can campaign to change it, or move. My choice to remain in a society where those laws are present doesn't give me any right at all to flout those laws just because I don't like them.



Actually, I didn't mention anything political. I just stated that I did not have much use for the police. I didn't say they weren't useful to others. I have simply found, from my own personal experience, they are not of much use to me.

That is not political that is exactly what another person commented.

It is history. And, you shouldn't get upset when a person states that they have no use for you personally.


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## pdg

Guthrie said:


> Actually, I didn't mention anything political. I just stated that I did not have much use for the police. I didn't say they weren't useful to others. I have simply found, from my own personal experience, they are not of much use to me.
> 
> That is not political that is exactly what another person commented.
> 
> It is history. And, you shouldn't get upset when a person states that they have no use for you personally.



I don't think that was the comment that caused any issues.

I could say the same thing in fact, that I've never had to 'use' the police. I've called them a total of one time and that was on behalf of someone else involved in a car crash.

But it's a very narrow minded view - without the police (both now and in the past) it's a fair bet that none of us would have the life we have. With nobody to enforce the law, there would be no point having any laws and our society would be one of tribal fighting and very few of the advancements we have would have occurred.


The comment that caused the problem was stating that people need to be taught to defend themselves from the police, and the implication that the police were a portion of society that does nothing except prey upon "every free man, woman and child" because they view everyone as a suspect.


The subsequent questions weren't about whether or why you had no use for law enforcement, more why you felt that everyone should have to defend themselves from the threat of LEO.


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## Deleted member 34973

People do need to be taught to defend themselves against anyone. Police are no exception. Why would you think that they are.


But still my comment wasn't a political one.


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## pdg

Because the police are the section of society that are the least likely to attack another person without provocation, at least in the 'western' world - therefore they are the section that it's least profitable to 'defend' yourself against.


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## Deleted member 34973

pdg said:


> Because the police are the section of society that are the least likely to attack another person without provocation, at least in the 'western' world - therefore they are the section that it's least profitable to 'defend' yourself against.


How is this not a political comment. This thread will be put on ignore.

Have a great discussion. I do not do well with this bias b.s.


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## pdg

If you think that's political then you and I have extremely different interpretations of the word...




Edit:

I just reported my own post to seek clarification.


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## Grenadier

Admin's Note: 

Thread closed, pending staff review.


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