# People who live in glass houses should'nt throw rocks!!



## DAC..florida

There are alot of members and ex-members of this board who have jumped down the throats of others for talking bad about people who are no longer members of this forum!

For the first time ever today I visited e-budo.com and my name (dac..florida) is all over the place, I saw it atleast three differant times and I was only there for about an hour.

PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!
:soapbox:


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## arnisador

This has happened to several MartialTalk members across several boards, sadly.


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *This has happened to several MartialTalk members across several boards, sadly. *



It is sad that these individuals wouldnt just come to MT where they knew I was a member but instead they take it to e-budo where Im not a member? It all good though I am a member of e-budo now and at least I can defend myself!


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## Reprobate

Oh, the horror... the horror. How you must suffer...


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I choose to ignore them all. I was talking to Kaith about this the other day. He told me he was having the same problem. My responce to him was not to waste his time. MT is my home, if ex-members want to start problems on other forums let them. If anything we might get more people to check us out.
:asian:


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Reprobate _
> *Oh, the horror... the horror. How you must suffer... *






GROW UP!


:soapbox: 

I was trying to make a point that the same people who were complaining about us including them in our post after they quit, are including me in posts on a forum I dont even frequent!
:asian:


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## arnisador

There's no such thing as bad publicity!


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## lonekimono

you know my grandfather once told me as a boy,that

  "you only need to chalk a stick one time to get what you need  
    done"

  so the hell with the people who just talk,to me they don't have a face


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## Reprobate

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *are including me in posts on a forum I dont even frequent!
> :asian: *


So what? 

You can tell me to 'grow up', but you charge at anyone who looks at you cross-eyed. For an 'instructor' you flip into a defensive mode quite quickly. I hope for you this 'short fuse' behaviour doesn't follow you about in real life.

I learned in kindergarten to take the messenger into account when looking at the message.

If a stranger calls me an *******, I ignore them. If a friend tells me I could've been more tactful, I pay attention.


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by Reprobate _
> *So what?
> 
> You can tell me to 'grow up', but you charge at anyone who looks at you cross-eyed. For an 'instructor' you flip into a defensive mode quite quickly. I hope for you this 'short fuse' behaviour doesn't follow you about in real life.
> 
> I learned in kindergarten to take the messenger into account when looking at the message.
> 
> If a stranger calls me an *******, I ignore them. If a friend tells me I could've been more tactful, I pay attention. *



Maybe you misunderstand my posts, I have never and will never get upset or take offence to what someone types on thier pc about me, especially since few have ever met me and even fewer I consider to be a friend.

I learned alot in kindergarten also, Like not to judge a book by its cover.  Maybe you should keep this in mind before you attempt to judge others.
 :asian:


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## don bohrer

In the old days people settled this kind of behavor with a gun fight. So... who do we got that can shoot?


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## cali_tkdbruin

When I was in Jr. high school back in the 70's and two guys despised each other, and were constantly at each others throats,  the P.E. teacher would take them aside and set up a boxing match between the two enemies. 

At our next P.E. class the teacher would strap gloves on the two guys and let them go at it. Sorta like sparring at the dojang. Anyway, when it was over the teacher had the two combatants shake hands and that was usually the end of it. For the most part, there were no problems thereafter.

Too bad that things can't be settled that easily anymore...  :shrug:


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## Cruentus

No s**t! Settling things like the old days, with honor, would save ourselves a lot of headaches. I don't mean shooting each other, but boxing, sparring, duking it out no protection until the other gives, or stick fighting. Minor injuries to solve big problems would be o.k. by me! :jediduel:


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## Disco

Only difference is that now you show up with your Posse, Lawyer, Accountant, Paid Off Witness, Gun Bearer and the local used car dealer.........:mst:


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## marshallbd

DAC..florida said:
			
		

> Maybe you misunderstand my posts, I have never and will never get upset or take offence to what someone types on thier pc about me, especially since few have ever met me and even fewer I consider to be a friend.
> 
> I learned alot in kindergarten also, Like not to judge a book by its cover.  Maybe you should keep this in mind before you attempt to judge others.
> :asian:


Lets all keep in mind that words are just words....They have no power or providence in life unless backed by truth and actions....So lets all live and be friends huh? :asian:


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## Taimishu

You see this a lot I call it long distance slagging.
You get it on the CB radio and now on the internet. Some people think its "big" or "cool" to slag people off knowing that they cannot be got to and that they say things they never would if they were face to face.
I think the name for this is cowardice.

Just my 2p worth.

David


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## bushi jon

Taimishu said:
			
		

> You see this a lot I call it long distance slagging.
> You get it on the CB radio and now on the internet. Some people think its "big" or "cool" to slag people off knowing that they cannot be got to and that they say things they never would if they were face to face.
> I think the name for this is cowardice.
> 
> Just my 2p worth.
> 
> David


Peolpe will generaly insult people that they do not have to come to face with.This behavior strokes their own ego


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## Aegis

"Insult" would be quite a harsh word for some of what actually happened here. there was a lot of fairly hardcore "fraud busting" a while back, but I would not class most of it as insulting, more an attempt to try to find the truth in any given situation. Admittedly there were quite a few instances where both parties took the discussion to argument, then to insults, but it wasn't instigated by just one side. 

I'll shut up now, as this sort of subject almost invariably leads to discord if continued too much.


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## Rich Parsons

This post is not directed at anyone.

It is provided in case you have not read this thread yet.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8134

Thank You
:asian:


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## theletch1

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> This post is not directed at anyone.
> 
> It is provided in case you have not read this thread yet.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8134
> 
> Thank You
> :asian:


_If you cant say it with out cursing like a truck driver, it is probably too far._  Hey, I'm a truck driver and if I can be polite on here so can every one else. :uhyeah:


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## DAC..florida

> there was a lot of fairly hardcore "fraud busting" a while back



I would say alot of 'attempted' fraud busting.  In truth and in one particular situation, no fraud was ever proven, because no fraud ever existed.  And interestingly enough, several of those that tried were themselves exposed as, shall we say, not being honest themselves.  In fact, one of the fraud busters accidentally exposed his fellow buster's deceit very recently on a different board.

Not a case of genuine fraud busting in that incident, just personality conflicts and pointless agendas.  Fortunately quite a few now know the truth that a former member stated early on.


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## Aegis

DAC..florida said:
			
		

> I would say alot of 'attempted' fraud busting.  In truth and in one particular situation, no fraud was ever proven, because no fraud ever existed.  And interestingly enough, several of those that tried were themselves exposed as, shall we say, not being honest themselves.  In fact, one of the fraud busters accidentally exposed his fellow buster's deceit very recently on a different board.
> 
> Not a case of genuine fraud busting in that incident, just personality conflicts and pointless agendas.  Fortunately quite a few now know the truth that a former member stated early on.



Personally I believed and still believe a lot of the accusations. There was far too much secrecy, topic misdirection, answering questions with "how dare you" style questions, etc for me to believe that certain claims were 100% true. Note that this is my opinion only, I'm not looking to restart any fraud busting, just disagreeing with your use of the words "attempted" and "truth"


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## paihequan

I recently experienced a person slagging off about me on another list. Fortunately that person resided in the same country as I so I invited him to meet me, see how I train and teach and treat my students. This he (a 2nd Dan) did and was to respond afterwards just how much he enjoyed our down to earth approach and that in his eyes I was the "real deal" (Whatever that means). He stated that he had trained with some very high profile people, martial historians who were very arrogant to others and who basked in the ego-glorification they received.  Just goes to show that high rank and a supposed high profile reputation does not always make for a good person on the mats.

It's very easy to make assumptions of others based upon past actions and words ..... especially on the internet. 

I guess a good rule of thumb is to treat others how you would like to be treated.


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## DAC..florida

Aegis said:
			
		

> Personally I believed and still believe a lot of the accusations. There was far too much secrecy, topic misdirection, answering questions with "how dare you" style questions, etc for me to believe that certain claims were 100% true. Note that this is my opinion only, I'm not looking to restart any fraud busting, just disagreeing with your use of the words "attempted" and "truth"



I don't know what there is not to believe?  Dave posted the name of his pangainoon instructor in the old chatroom, pm's and even here in this forum.  A poster on ebudo confirmed this independently and knew his instructor.  His other BB's are registered with the WIF and are on their public forum.  His L.E. credentials and awards are registered with FDLE and are open to the public.  He was the victime of e-mugging plain and simple.  He stated that his accusers were not being truthful and this came out recently on another board as well.  People are to quick to believe the worst about someone based on peoples comments on the internet.  I KNOW him personally and train with him.  Those others never did.  They never bothered to check his credentials, They just kept pounding away with misleading information.  If I got half a dozen buddies I could attack anyone here and make them look bad with my buddies chiming in.....

When given the chance he was an excellent poster.  Even some of his attackers admitted this here in print.  He brought a few folks here as well, I'm one of them.  He should be asked to come back  :asian:


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## Don Roley

Aegis said:
			
		

> Personally I believed and still believe a lot of the accusations. There was far too much secrecy, topic misdirection, answering questions with "how dare you" style questions, etc for me to believe that certain claims were 100% true. Note that this is my opinion only, I'm not looking to restart any fraud busting, just disagreeing with your use of the words "attempted" and "truth"



Especially when things like this happen.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5279

I never, ever trust people on the internet anymore unless I can check their facts off line, and their existence.


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## KennethKu

You can never keep a con-man down.  lol


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## Aegis

I can't see the link, can someone give the the gist of it by PM?


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## Aegis

ok, got it now. And just as I recieve the private message detailing the contents of the link I find myself able to access the site again.... Weird!


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## Robert Carver

Aegis:

BudoSeek! is having some minor problems due to the server we are hosted on being subjected to a Denial of Service attack yesterday. We are up and running, but service is a little sporatic right now.


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## Aegis

Thanks Robert. It's been inaccessible for me for a couple of days but I managed to get on today. I know I don't contribute much to your forum, but I do occasionally read the subjects that interest me


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## 8253

in the end it dosent really matter what they say.  What you do is what will matter in the end.


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## someguy

Actions speak louder than words basiclly.
Who ever said that forgot that speaking is an Action though but eh oh well.


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## Don Roley

Aegis said:
			
		

> I can't see the link, can someone give the the gist of it by PM?



Since Budoseek sometimes has troubles, let me post the important points.




> Webmaster	04-03-2004 17:23
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lie to me, and you will pay.
> 
> Break my rules, and you will pay.
> 
> Everyone here has been repeatedly reminded of the "real name rule" as well as other rules like not having duplicate accounts. People have even asked "what if I just use a fake name?" I have told them to go ahead, but if I catch you lying about using your real name, you will pay. This is the case of Mr. Buster.
> 
> Mr. Buster like another member, A.R.K., frequently posts from an IP address registered to the (edited out by Don Roley). One of our members inquired about Mr. Buster and if there was a "Pat Russell" employed there. I subsequently received a nice email from an official with that department informing me that no "Pat Russell" exists in their department as a deputy or any other employee. So we have Mr. Buster using a fake name. Strike one.
> 
> Mr. Buster in his very first post on this board was banned for making an inflamatory posts. He informed me at that time his name was "Pat Russell". I reinstated his membership with the understanding that he would obey our rules. He lied directly to me. Strike Two.
> 
> Also, IP addresses are unique to each computer on a network. Thus, any two computers in a company would have unique IP addresses. Since Mr. Buster and A.R.K. are posting from the same computer at the (Edited out by Don Roley), and no "Pat Russell" exists, my only conclusion is that Mr. Buster is actually A.R.K. posting under a fake name. Strike Three.
> 
> Now both Mr. Buster and A.R.K. are banned.
> 
> Webmaster	04-05-2004 08:28
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> After I made the original post in this thread, I learned some more interesting facts in discussion with admin at other boards. It turns out that the identity of Mr. Buster may indeed not be Mr. Shultz. Instead, I have discovered that Mr. David Craine, another member of the (edited out by Don Roley), may be the culprit. He posts under the username "DAC..florida" on several other websites, and his IP address is the same as Mr. Shultz. Now here is the funny part. Mr. Buster in his public profile here at BudoSeek! lists a birthday of March 9, and his interests as fishing. If you look at Mr. Craine's (aka "DAC..florida") public profile on these other sites, he lists his birthday as March 9, 1975 and his interests as fishing. I guess it is hard to keep your story straight when you post all over the internet.
> 
> This is what I call a "special kinda stupid".


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## KennethKu

What's that I hear?  Oh, it's the sound of glass breaking!  lol

These jokers must have thought that they could pull the same con game on other boards and got away with it.

Its rediculous that MT lost a bunch of knowledgeable and experienced members because of the bullcrap pulled by this bunch of liars.


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## Don Roley

KennethKu said:
			
		

> What's that I hear?  Oh, it's the sound of glass breaking!  lol
> 
> These jokers must have thought that they could pull the same con game on other boards and got away with it.
> 
> Its rediculous that MT lost a bunch of knowledgeable and experienced members because of the bullcrap pulled by this bunch of liars.



Ah yes. Especially when you compare the current biography

http://cqdt9d1.freeservers.com/about.html

With that of just a year ago thanks to Archive.org.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030405080946/http://cqdt9d1.freeservers.com/about.html

In just one year, can you see how many claims had to be dropped after people started asking questions? And how many new ranks were gained to cover the ones that were dropped? _In just the time between now and April 5th of last year?_ 

Last year at this time, someone was claiming to be a tenth dan in Mya Ryu Jitsu. Now, they are too humble to be anymore than an eighth dan- which of coure they were awarded in Pangainoon but can not show any proof for.  :uhyeah: 

I would like to thank David Craine for starting this thread. It really has helped a lot of people understand his teacher better.


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## KennethKu

Heck, the MA community owes it to all the decent and honorable men such yourself, Rousselot, the Yili folks and the mods of other MA boards who don't suffer fools and con artists easily.  You all work relentlessly and tirelessly to expose all those scam artists who are disgrace to the martial community. 

:asian:


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## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Heck, the MA community owes it to all the decent and honorable men such yourself, Rousselot, the Yili folks and the mods of other MA boards who don't suffer fools and con artists easily.  You all work relentlessly and tirelessly to expose all those scam artists who are disgrace to the martial community.
> 
> :asian:



I did not have a personal problem with anyone asking the questions.

I did not and do notahve a problem with a few follow up questions.

I did and do have a problem when people derail every thread a person posts on. This in my mind is stalking on line. As most of what you speak of occured during the time before I was a Mod, and soon after I became a mod, I am replying now from the perspective of member. It was not productive. It was not a positive way to approach.

I also had some person issues with some of those you praise. They would not answer me. Nor would the be polite or not triple team me and others. I found their presence as disruptive and negative as anyone who may or may not have presented a falsehood.

Just my opinions. Sorry for the off topic reply, yet I thought it might be considered a stone in my mind as some of those mentioned were just as disruptive and unhonorable to me. Yet, I have been told I was wrong to think this way. So, I guess I have been told. 

I am not defending anyone. I just do not think everyone came out of that confratation clean.

Oh Well  :idunno:


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## KennethKu

You reminded me of those foolish bleeding hearts defending the Evil Empire, making excuses and providing cover to the KGB agents,  while brave men and women worked relentlessly to defeat the tyranical communists oppressing the innocent people of Eastern Europe and the USSR.


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## Bob Hubbard

I never had a problem with a question being asked.

The problem was with the asking of the same question a thousand times, from a dozen people creating a gang-enviroment.

Those so fixated on the busting activities that they crossed the lines of decorum.
How many police investigations have been thrown out due to the 'zeal' of those investigating it, which resulted in the guilty going free?

That happened here.

Evidence couldn't be simply posted and allowed to work.  No, a confession must be made, the guilty ridden until the entire universe sees the rightness of the holy cause.

Well...the busters all left.  and..you know what?

The guilty folks, after being given enough rope, hung themselves.  
In a few cases...badly!

All without frothing at the mouth, hundreds of warnings, suspensions, bannings or public beratings.

And, the guilty parties are now either banned, booted , barred or watched ver closely on a dozen forums.

All we ever asked those interested in verifying credibility to do was work within our guidelines and rules.  They couldn't, hense the problems.

Would you applaud the rogue cop, who breaks the law repeatedly in his pursuit of what he sees as 'justice'?  How about the self-appointed cop, who breaks the law while chaising his prey?  

Follow our rules, present your evidence, then let things run their course. Was all we ever asked....but, we asked too much of the 'heros' it seemed.


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## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> You reminded me of those foolish bleeding hearts defending the Evil Empire, making excuses and providing cover to the KGB agents,  while brave men and women worked relentlessly to defeat the tyranical communists oppressing the innocent people of Eastern Europe and the USSR.




Sir,

I do argue just yo argue.

I do take sides I do not agree with to play devil's advocate.

I am not a bleeding heart liberal 

I respect those men and women who served our country.  :asian:  THis is not about being pro USA or not. (* Good knee jerk arguement there - I agree it does get people thinking I am hateful of our Military boys and girls. I do not *)

This about individuals and me. And how I Saw it go down. 

I could read it from your point of view that you believe it ok to kill the school kids with automatic weapons as the police are storming a drug house. So it is ok for innocent people to also be hurt in the pursuit of the quest. 

So I could take you sir as a NAZI willing to kill those for your goals of superiority. Yet, I choose not too, for I believe that you may not wish to have presented your self as such. Just like you thought I was a Bleeding heart Liberal.  That still makes me laugh.

Enjoy and Have a Nice Day
 :asian:


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## Bester

What is the big deal?
Some egos left, and some liars were exposed.

I have read several posts by many of those mentioned....better they are kept away from keyboards, lest they insert that into their mouths next.

To quote an associate of mine...."Ah! Arrogence and Stupidity, all in one package....how efficient of you."


When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be.


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## Kempojujutsu

It seems David Schultz (ARK) has not been on martial talk for over a year. It sounds silly to keep attacking him every where you go Don. Don't you have anything better to do?  I agree with Kaith.I never had a problem with a question being asked.

The problem was with the asking of the same question a thousand times, from a dozen people creating a gang-enviroment.

Those so fixated on the busting activities that they crossed the lines of decorum.
How many police investigations have been thrown out due to the 'zeal' of those investigating it, which resulted in the guilty going free?

That happened here.

Evidence couldn't be simply posted and allowed to work. No, a confession must be made, the guilty ridden until the entire universe sees the rightness of the holy cause.

Well...the busters all left. and..you know what?

The guilty folks, after being given enough rope, hung themselves. 
In a few cases...badly!

All without frothing at the mouth, hundreds of warnings, suspensions, bannings or public beratings.

And, the guilty parties are now either banned, booted , barred or watched ver closely on a dozen forums.

All we ever asked those interested in verifying credibility to do was work within our guidelines and rules. They couldn't, hense the problems.

Would you applaud the rogue cop, who breaks the law repeatedly in his pursuit of what he sees as 'justice'? How about the self-appointed cop, who breaks the law while chaising his prey? 

If you find someone who is a fraud, post it. Don't keep beating it like a dead horse.


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## KennethKu

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Sir,
> 
> I do argue just yo argue.
> 
> I do take sides I do not agree with to play devil's advocate.
> 
> I am not a bleeding heart liberal
> 
> I respect those men and women who served our country.  :asian:  THis is not about being pro USA or not. (* Good knee jerk arguement there - I agree it does get people thinking I am hateful of our Military boys and girls. I do not *)
> 
> This about individuals and me. And how I Saw it go down.
> 
> I could read it from your point of view that you believe it ok to kill the school kids with automatic weapons as the police are storming a drug house. So it is ok for innocent people to also be hurt in the pursuit of the quest.
> 
> So I could take you sir as a NAZI willing to kill those for your goals of superiority. Yet, I choose not too, for I believe that you may not wish to have presented your self as such. Just like you thought I was a Bleeding heart Liberal.  That still makes me laugh.
> 
> Enjoy and Have a Nice Day
> :asian:



I don't care to respond to this  as it is obvious that you will never understand.   The Yilli folks have tried in vain to enlighten you.


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## KennethKu

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I never had a problem with a question being asked.
> 
> The problem was with the asking of the same question a thousand times, from a dozen people creating a gang-enviroment.
> 
> Those so fixated on the busting activities that they crossed the lines of decorum.
> How many police investigations have been thrown out due to the 'zeal' of those investigating it, which resulted in the guilty going free?
> 
> That happened here.
> 
> Evidence couldn't be simply posted and allowed to work.  No, a confession must be made, the guilty ridden until the entire universe sees the rightness of the holy cause.
> 
> Well...the busters all left.  and..you know what?
> 
> The guilty folks, after being given enough rope, hung themselves.
> In a few cases...badly!
> 
> All without frothing at the mouth, hundreds of warnings, suspensions, bannings or public beratings.
> 
> And, the guilty parties are now either banned, booted , barred or watched ver closely on a dozen forums.
> 
> All we ever asked those interested in verifying credibility to do was work within our guidelines and rules.  They couldn't, hense the problems.
> 
> Would you applaud the rogue cop, who breaks the law repeatedly in his pursuit of what he sees as 'justice'?  How about the self-appointed cop, who breaks the law while chaising his prey?
> 
> Follow our rules, present your evidence, then let things run their course. Was all we ever asked....but, we asked too much of the 'heros' it seemed.



Of course, you can always resort to "this is my board and I can run it anyway I damn way please."  

With all due respect, wake up and smell the coffee, Bob.  The way MT staff handled that incident, has wrecked tremenduous damage to MT reputation. In the MA online community, the MT team is a laughing stock because they got taken for a ride by a couple of crooks.  Yes, in the end, the crooks got exposed and ousted.  But no thanks to you. It was by the effort of mods of other boards.

Honestly, the way you folks describe Mike Clark, Robert Rousellot, Mike Hachey, Mike Stone and Phillip Starrs, reflects badly on yourselves.


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## KennethKu

Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> .....If you find someone who is a fraud, post it......



Isn't that exactly what Don Roley has done?


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## Bob Hubbard

You can believe what you wish...rehashing it will get us nowhere.

As to the reputation, some damage was done, and some good came out of it.    People too ignorant, inconsiderate or arrogant to follow the concepts of netiquette or the posted rules simply aren't welcome here.  

The simple fact was...the frauds played those 'heros' like fine violins, until they snapped.  The rope that hung them was spun here.  Anyone doing enough reading, with any level of intelligence will see that, and understand a simple truism: A liar can never keep -all- their lies straight.  

There is a phrase: "Time will either promote you, or expose you."
There were alot of shortcomings exposed in those 'wars'.
Some tend to be too short sighted to see all of them.


As to Mr. Roley.... he needs to learn what did in his predecessors.  There are ways to diseminate the information he seeks within our rules.  Considering I can't recall him being issued alot (if any) warnings, nor having to have gone so 'frothy' that suspensions were warrented...I would say he's learned quite alot.

As we've said repeatedly...there are ways.  Being a jerk (which was often the case previously) is not one of them.


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## Kempojujutsu

99.9 percent of Mr. Roley post are about exposing some kind of fraud. Usually it is the same people over and over and over. It sounds like a broken record. There is more to the martial arts then trying to expose all the frauds in it. If you are into the martial arts to expose the frauds only, then you are in it for the wrong reasons.


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## Don Roley

And if your purpose in the martial arts is to tell people how they should act as you want them to, you should not be in martial arts.  :uhyeah: 

Seriously, what makes you think I spend 99 percent of my time in martial arts even on the computer, let alone busting frauds? It is just that when I am faced with so many obviously incompetent frauds leading others astray, I feel the need to point things out rather than let innocents be fooled just so that I can feel that I am acting in a superior manner of politeness.

And I do not give much information about my art on the internet after seeing just how many of the frauds out there collect and repackage the stuff to help their stories. I used to be known as a guy to ask about Japanese history and such. Now I tend to answer questions on the matter with resources they should check themselves rather than with an easy answer.

Sad, but the amount of frauds out there kind of make it a neccesity.


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## Cruentus

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sad, but the amount of frauds out there kind of make it a neccesity.



This is very true, and a sad fact of the martial arts today. There are too many frauds in martial arts, period. I can understand Don's (btw, Don has been very informative to me at times, so I am not seeing that he only spends his time "fraud busting"), and even Robert Rousellot's fustrations with this, as I share many of the same fustrations. In martial arts, "truth" can be changed so easily to fit an agenda; no other industry that I know of is as ridden with lies as martial arts. So, Fraud busting has it's place.

Now, I am the kind of guy who shoots from the hip. If I think your an A-hole, I am inclined to say, "your an A-hole." I have gotten in trouble for this, um,  "straightforwardness" here before (and rightfully so).

The fact is, in life, you can't just act any way you damn well please. If I told a prospective client that "he was being a moron" with his investments, I don't think I'd be able to bring in the business. The same rules in life apply to "netiquette." Bob, and the Moderators of this board have decided that they don't want a community where people can behave anyway they want. Because when you have that kind of community, your are only left with a few blow-hard jerks who managed to "name-call" and "slam" every other normal, good person out of the community. Now, if you want to name call and argue with a handful of blow-hards, I am sure that there are OTHER forums to accomidate you. However, the other almost 3,000 members here would rather that THIS board doesn't degenerate to that. (I don't know why I have to explain this to "adults"   )

On that note, Robert Rousellot was a very informative member while he was here, and I liked a lot of what he had to say. He was also a blow-hard jerk who couldn't manage to play by the rules for the life of him. The mods may not have handled him "perfectly," but Robert brought it on himself with his behavior. And, as much as I like the "Yili crowd," they were wrong for leaving because of that incident. It seems that they forgot that in life there are rules, and if you break them then there will be consequences.

You can bust frauds. You can show others that someone is a liar, A-hole, or an idiot. The MT mods are saying that you just have to play by the rules when you do so. You can't resort to name-calling, or "stalking" from thread to thread to slam someone. In real life, this is called harassment, and when you are guilty, you look like a bigger jerk then the "fraud" you are trying to bust. There are a million ways to call some a liar, an A-hole, or an Idiot, without breaking the rules. See....watch:

_
KennethKu,



			I don't care to respond to this as it is obvious that you will never understand. The Yilli folks have tried in vain to enlighten you.
		
Click to expand...


You should look in the mirror my friend, before you houghtily slam on Rich for being "unenlightened." You seem to think that the mods have some sort of agenda simply because they don't agree with your philosophy of "fraud bust at all costs." Perhaps, they simply understand that sometimes when you win, you lose. This means that "fraud busting" isn't worth is if it means chasing other good (non-fraud) members away through poor netiquette and bullying behavior. Maybe they don't believe in compromising their values (or the values of this board) for a fraud busting agenda. Perhaps they, like most logical people, understand that you don't have to cut your nose off to spite your face, meaning that you can "fraud-bust" without making this community a bad place to be.

Besides, you should be glad that rules are in place. You have made some pretty bizarre claims yourself regarding "iron palm" training, with no proof to back you claims:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10339&page=2&pp=15&highlight=Iron+Palm (page 2 of this thread) 
How would you feel if you were chased around every interent community because of some of the things YOU have claimed?

Exactly. It's nice having some regulation to prevent poor netiquette isn't it?

PAUL    
_ 

See, there are always ways so say what you mean while playing by the rules.


----------



## marshallbd

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Honestly, the way you folks describe Mike Clark, Robert Rousellot, Mike Hachey, Mike Stone and Phillip Starrs, reflects badly on yourselves.


Who? :asian:


----------



## Cruentus

marshallbd said:
			
		

> Who? :asian:



Yea...exactly. People who were here and gone over a year ago, that Kenneth can't seem to let go.


----------



## marshallbd

PAUL said:
			
		

> Yea...exactly. People who were here and gone over a year ago, that Kenneth can't seem to let go.


I figured it was something like that...


----------



## KennethKu

Paul,

Your comment about what I posted regarding Iron Palm as being bizarre, only reflects your total lack of basic knowledge in hard style martial art training as well as your lack of medical knowledge.  That is the only reason you would find it "bizarre".  A knowledgeable hard style martial artist would have little problem in deciphering my info. The fundamental training technique is in the public domain. That is nothing new. What is new is my colleaque and I have incorporated transdermal delivery of chemicals that enhance recovery and reduce the risk tissue, tendon, ligament and bone damage. We have also modified the training procedure in accordance to new knowledge in physiology and sport science.  Excellence in martial art performance is in science, not in "tradition".

If someone doed not understand science, it is not surprising that he would find it "bizarre".

If anyone care to hound me over this (or anything for that matter), I certainly could not give a rat *** about it. lol      Bring it!   lol

Unlike the con artists, I am not in this for anything.  You or anyone's view or opinions of me, favourable or not, mean absolutely f@#$ S@#$ to me.  lol


----------



## KennethKu

PAUL said:
			
		

> Yea...exactly. People who were here and gone over a year ago, that Kenneth can't seem to let go.


Allow me to elaborate.

After being off for almost a year, I just got back being a bit more active in the online world.  Looking at the posts in MT forum, I couldn't help but missed the posters such as Martial Artist, Jill, the Yilli folks, Robert, Mike Clark etc.  It is truly sad to see how MT has degenerated from an informative forum into the "elementary school yard".  

It saddens me to see  the facts being so liberally distorted. Mind you, these people who quit, did not get "done in" or could not "follow the rules".  They left because they were disgusted at the arbitrary enforcement of the rules, the lack of objectivity, fairness on the part of the Mod team. They refused to be associated with people who lack the sense of personal duty to speak out against moral wrongs.  People are incline to smear these people. The fact is, Martial Artist, Jill, Philip Starr, Mike Clark have never ever even gotten on a pissing match with anyone. 

I am just sharing what has been circulating beyond the border of MT. It isn't a matter of my personal view or opinions. Shooting the messenger ain't get you anywhere. (Not that has stopped anyone from doing just that. Nor would I be concerned.)


----------



## KennethKu

Don Roley said:
			
		

> And if your purpose in the martial arts is to tell people how they should act as you want them to, you should not be in martial arts.  :uhyeah:
> 
> Seriously, what makes you think I spend 99 percent of my time in martial arts even on the computer, let alone busting frauds? It is just that when I am faced with so many obviously incompetent frauds leading others astray, I feel the need to point things out rather than let innocents be fooled just so that I can feel that I am acting in a superior manner of politeness.
> 
> And I do not give much information about my art on the internet after seeing just how many of the frauds out there collect and repackage the stuff to help their stories. I used to be known as a guy to ask about Japanese history and such. Now I tend to answer questions on the matter with resources they should check themselves rather than with an easy answer.
> 
> Sad, but the amount of frauds out there kind of make it a neccesity.



You see, Don,  some people are bornt with a strong sense of personal duty to speak out against moral wrongs.  That's what separates men from boys.


----------



## Don Roley

marshallbd said:
			
		

> Who? :asian:



The people mentioned were the ones who are responsible for letting me and others know that something was wrong and someone with dubious claims was very active on these boards.

Here is the thread where I first became aware of what was going on.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7667

Despite the idea that the frauds eventually hanged themselves, I have to point out that they did so because of the groundwork laid by folks such as Robert. Sometimes you need a guy to calmly present the truth. Sometimes you need someone to stand up on the table and scream, "HE IS A GOD DAMN LIAR AND A FRAUD!"

It was Robert that pointed out that David Schultz was a member of the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Association but was unaware of the Korean term for teacher. That led to an inquiry by me into Jack Stern. The things I found out about Stern through sources like John Connoly led to Schultz trying to attack and discredit Connoly. And it seems to be for that activities that he has gotten tossed off of this and another board.

Here are just a few examples of what I am talking about.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=149780#post149780

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=149773#post149773

You can see that "Mr Buster" continues the attack on another board in the last few weeks.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5092&page=1

Schultz and Craine seem to be saying that Connoly has to be a fraud and should not be listened to because he claims many high ranks. This is an unusual strategy to take considering his own number of high ranks claimed as well as his close relationship with Brent Fuller. Fuller's claims can be found at the following link.

http://www.icmaua.com/ArtistsEncyclopediaF.htm

So, if Robert had not started the ball with others, the fraud would never have gone to the lengths he did to hang himself. And we would still be _blessed_ with the presence of a Virtual Sensei with inflated claims.


----------



## Bester

KennethKu said:
			
		

> I am just sharing what has been circulating beyond the border of MT.



I looked myself based on your suggestion and find little negative mentioned elsewhere. 

To be honest, I found a few links to various 'buster' threads here concerning 'ARK' and those individuals you mentioned...many of those same posts were lacking a certain level of maturity one might expect in the true martial artist.

Certainly no "Don't go there" warnings.

So, wheres the 'poop'?  Links?


----------



## KennethKu

Those who need to know, know what I am talking about.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Those who need to know, know what I am talking about.


:rofl:  Yup, the "Buster Brigade" in their "Sekret Liar", have all the evidence on how 'evul' we are, and how we coddle the villians, and conspire to drive off the hard working, honest, honorable 'seekers of truth justice and the constipated way'.

Unless you have the 'Sekret Decoder Ring', you just can't find it.

Kenneth...I combed E-Budo looking for such 'laughing stock' materials...
Found a few threads as the 'PsiCop' said that pointed to the 'Grand ARK War' here and elsewhere.  Nothing else really.  I went to BudoSeek....nope...no warnings there.  Hell, I even went to Bullshido..and outside of 1 of our rejects spouting off at the mouth didn't find much.

Dude, I hate to say it, but if we're that evil a bunch of SOBs here....where is the evidence?  A dozen frat-rats out of 6 billion people doesn't constitue a majority, even in a Florida Election.

Now...one can argue that there are gaps in certain areas here.
We don't currently have an active expert on many arts.
We aren't the leading source of information on many things.
Well....we are slowly working on that.
Our goal is to provide a calm enviroment to allow discussions, not witch hunts.
You want 'anything goes'?  Try USENET or the mudhut forums.
You want scholastical discussions on blades? Try BladeForums or SwordForums.
You want to deal with a large group of gajin livin and breathin in the heart of Japan?  E-Budo for you.
You want to be able to swear and rant and measure genitals without fear of a spanking? Well, there are forums for that sort of juvinileness as well.

Unlike 1 forum I won't mention, we won't go through and delete all references to other boards.  Just not afraid of the competition...hell, I encourage it.  I'll work with almost any board admin to help improve things.  Its why we have the MT Net.  Part advice, part info sharing, and R&D, and part peer.  Open to any MA site admin willing to share.

But, I forget... we're well known for sucking.   I mean, "everyone knows"..even though several hours of searching turned up squat.  It this all listed on Internet2 maybe?

I'm sorry, but the PM's, Emails and even public 'attaboys' we get seem to say otherwise.  Maybe they are all part of that secret group of elite experts though who left in a huff when we said "No, youve proven your point.  You don't need to say it again. 10,000 times was more than sufficient."

Whatever.

The threads in question are still here.  Anyone who cares can go do a search.
Heres some terms: ARK RyuShiKan Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association  Also, look through the JMA, Horror story, and support forums.
Its all there, the busters, the bustees and the fopas.

Enjoy.  I'm going to go relax and watch Iron Chef America.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

2 additional points:
ARKs account here was closed August 2003
DAC's account was closed April 2004


----------



## Cruentus

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Paul,
> 
> Your comment about what I posted regarding Iron Palm as being bizarre, only reflects your total lack of basic knowledge in hard style martial art training as well as your lack of medical knowledge.  That is the only reason you would find it "bizarre".  A knowledgeable hard style martial artist would have little problem in deciphering my info. The fundamental training technique is in the public domain. That is nothing new. What is new is my colleaque and I have incorporated transdermal delivery of chemicals that enhance recovery and reduce the risk tissue, tendon, ligament and bone damage. We have also modified the training procedure in accordance to new knowledge in physiology and sport science.  Excellence in martial art performance is in science, not in "tradition".
> 
> If someone doed not understand science, it is not surprising that he would find it "bizarre".
> 
> If anyone care to hound me over this (or anything for that matter), I certainly could not give a rat *** about it. lol      Bring it!   lol
> 
> Unlike the con artists, I am not in this for anything.  You or anyone's view or opinions of me, favourable or not, mean absolutely f@#$ S@#$ to me.  lol



Don't try to put this off on me "not understanding science" Kenneth. I am not a scientest, but as a martial artist and educated person who has taken college level anatomy and physiology courses, I have a basic understanding.

My understanding of science has nothing to do with it. I understand the basic physiological concepts behind body and hand conditioning. However, I disagreed with you on the "One punch, one kill" idea, in that I believe that the human body is generally resilient enough to not die after being punched once. This is despite any level of hand conditioning. It may be possible to kill with one well placed strike, but is not something that should be relied on. And, if you believe otherwise, then I think that your dabbling a little too much in "martial fantasy" (kinda like, "MT has degenerated from an informative forum into the 'elementary school yard'," all because 5 people left, compared to the 2,500 who stayed.   ).

So, when I made my conjecture, you explained that, "it is not that hard to train for Killing punch. And you wouldn't sacrifice your fists in the process, as some ill-informed armchair martial stylists may mouth about," and that, "Today we have the medical knowledge to train and condition the fists without risking traumatic damage. With this been the internet, any person with any brain cell alive would not be so careless as to post openly about how to train for such deadly skills."

Oh Reeeally?   So when I asked you to explain your methods, you are able to cop out because it is far too "deadly" for the internet. I think my word "bizarre" is a nice way of putting it, when BullS**t might be more appropriate. 

But, you can say what you want, as I notice that your profile doesn't provide any information about you, really. So, you can be a scientest with whom your "colleage" and you developed the secret "one punch, one kill" potion, or you could be another "armchair martial stylist" trolling the internet, and spouting claims that you refuse to verify. I'm leaning towards the latter.

However, isn't it nice to know that the rules prevent me from chasing you around to every thread and every post you make, trashing you because of how you've chosen to present yourself? So, given these facts, you should be glad that certian rules are in place. And THAT point has little to do with my knowledge of science.

PAUL


----------



## Cruentus

> Mind you, these people who quit, did not get "done in" or could not "follow the rules". They left because they were disgusted at the arbitrary enforcement of the rules, the lack of objectivity, fairness on the part of the Mod team. They refused to be associated with people who lack the sense of personal duty to speak out against moral wrongs. People are incline to smear these people. The fact is, Martial Artist, Jill, Philip Starr, Mike Clark have never ever even gotten on a pissing match with anyone.



The key word is, THEY QUIT. I liked all the people you mentioned, and I wish they'd return. However, THEY chose to leave over a disagreement with the way the mods. handled something. I feel that this was the wrong thing to do. I think that the mods. do a fairly good job, even though they do make mistakes, as they are human. I have disagreed with them before. When I have, I have talked with them over it. Sometimes decisions have not favored my opinion. But, this is life. If I take my ball and go home everytime I disagree with something, then I'd find myself playing ball by myself.

They made the choice to leave, end of story. I wish they'd retract that choice and come back, but I don't think that MT should jeprodize it's values for this to occur.

PAUL


----------



## Cruentus

> Despite the idea that the frauds eventually hanged themselves, I have to point out that they did so because of the groundwork laid by folks such as Robert. Sometimes you need a guy to calmly present the truth. Sometimes you need someone to stand up on the table and scream, "HE IS A GOD DAMN LIAR AND A FRAUD!"



Hey Don,

I appreciate that Robert had laid the groundwork to bust certian frauds, and I understand what you are saying. That was one thing I liked about him (Robert). Yet, I disagree with you in that I don't think rules needed to be broken for this to occur. You can bring your evidence forth in a scholarly manner, then "Time will either expose you or promote you" as they say. Cutting off your nose to spite your face only makes you look like an A-hole, and does little to bust the fraud in question.

That's just my humble opinion anyway!  :ultracool


----------



## KennethKu

PAUL said:
			
		

> Don't try to put this off on me "not understanding science" Kenneth. I am not a scientest, but as a martial artist and educated person who has taken college level anatomy and physiology courses, I have a basic understanding.
> 
> My understanding of science has nothing to do with it. I understand the basic physiological concepts behind body and hand conditioning. However, I disagreed with you on the "One punch, one kill" idea, in that I believe that the human body is generally resilient enough to not die after being punched once. This is despite any level of hand conditioning. It may be possible to kill with one well placed strike, but is not something that should be relied on. And, if you believe otherwise, then I think that your dabbling a little too much in "martial fantasy" (kinda like, "MT has degenerated from an informative forum into the 'elementary school yard'," all because 5 people left, compared to the 2,500 who stayed.   ).
> 
> So, when I made my conjecture, you explained that, "it is not that hard to train for Killing punch. And you wouldn't sacrifice your fists in the process, as some ill-informed armchair martial stylists may mouth about," and that, "Today we have the medical knowledge to train and condition the fists without risking traumatic damage. With this been the internet, any person with any brain cell alive would not be so careless as to post openly about how to train for such deadly skills."
> 
> Oh Reeeally?   So when I asked you to explain your methods, you are able to cop out because it is far too "deadly" for the internet. I think my word "bizarre" is a nice way of putting it, when BullS**t might be more appropriate.
> 
> But, you can say what you want, as I notice that your profile doesn't provide any information about you, really. So, you can be a scientest with whom your "colleage" and you developed the secret "one punch, one kill" potion, or you could be another "armchair martial stylist" trolling the internet, and spouting claims that you refuse to verify. I'm leaning towards the latter.
> 
> However, isn't it nice to know that the rules prevent me from chasing you around to every thread and every post you make, trashing you because of how you've chosen to present yourself? So, given these facts, you should be glad that certian rules are in place. And THAT point has little to do with my knowledge of science.
> 
> PAUL



Just because I and a few people know something that you don't, it rubs your ego the wrong way.  lol   . There isn't a damn thing you can do about it. So you pound your chest and try to claim moral high ground by evoking the all mighty MT rules. lol.  Nice try, buddy boy. lol  You know damn well that I couldn't give a rat *** about any hassling. There is no chance in hell that I would disclose proprietary information into the public domain. 

You see, Paul, not only in MA, but in your profession , ie money management, I am also privy to knowledge and skills that you don't. lol   I have read you highlighting your investment management career over many different threads.  I managed institution portfolios while you were still in school, Paul.   Tough huh? In a business where there are more ego than talents, where nothing is sacred and where the biggest whore makes the most money.  It must rubs you the wrong way to see other minions making millions and bringing hundreds of millions of assets while producing pathetic performance, huh?    I have met hundreds of semi intelligent guys like you. They have a reasonably good analytical mind and some social savvy. They delude themselves into thinking that they alone can produce superior returns.  Yet, years after years, they underperform the index and all they have are excuses.  Yeah well, you can outperform the market IF YOU KNOW the relationship between not just the probabilities of gain and loss but also the size of gains and loss.  There lies the secret to great wealth.  There ain't no secret to it. (The principle is obsecenely simple. But there is no chance in hell that I am gonna just give it away like that. lol ) It is just that those who have found it, keep it to themselves. Soros has found it. Paul Tudor Jones has found it. Marty Stewartz has found it. Just about every successful traders and investors have found it.  There are a million ways to make great wealth in the market, but they are all very hard to find.  I am sure that rub you the wrong way too, Paul.   Well, that just too f@#$%king baddddddddd......   lol

So you see, Paul, there is a big world out there and you sir is just a small fish. There are many people whose background you know nothing about, but outclass you in every dimenssion.  I bet that rubs you the wrong way too, huh? lol

Anyhow, enough of this OT BS.  (it was fun though)


----------



## Cruentus

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Just because I and a few people know something that you don't, it rubs your ego the wrong way.  lol   . There isn't a damn thing you can do about it. So you pound your chest and try to claim moral high ground by evoking the all mighty MT rules. lol.  Nice try, buddy boy. lol  You know damn well that I couldn't give a rat *** about any hassling. There is no chance in hell that I would disclose proprietary information into the public domain.
> 
> You see, Paul, not only in MA, but in your profession , ie money management, I am also privy to knowledge and skills that you don't. lol   I have read you highlighting your investment management career over many different threads.  I managed institution portfolios while you were still in school, Paul.   Tough huh? In a business where there are more ego than talents, where nothing is sacred and where the biggest whore makes the most money.  It must rubs you the wrong way to see other minions making millions and bringing hundreds of millions of assets while producing pathetic performance, huh?    I have met hundreds of semi intelligent guys like you. They have a reasonably good analytical mind and some social savvy. They delude themselves into thinking that they alone can produce superior returns.  Yet, years after years, they underperform the index and all they have are excuses.  Yeah well, you can outperform the market IF YOU KNOW the relationship between not just the probabilities of gain and loss but also the size of gains and loss.  There lies the secret to great wealth.  There ain't no secret to it. (The principle is obsecenely simple. But there is no chance in hell that I am gonna just give it away like that. lol ) It is just that those who have found it, keep it to themselves. Soros has found it. Paul Tudor Jones has found it. Marty Stewartz has found it. Just about every successful traders and investors have found it.  There are a million ways to make great wealth in the market, but they are all very hard to find.  I am sure that rub you the wrong way too, Paul.   Well, that just too f@#$%king baddddddddd......   lol
> 
> So you see, Paul, there is a big world out there and you sir is just a small fish. There are many people whose background you know nothing about, but outclass you in every dimenssion.  I bet that rubs you the wrong way too, huh? lol
> 
> Anyhow, enough of this OT BS.  (it was fun though)



Wow...spoken like a true scientest, with all that "proprietary information.".... um..."lol"   

Now your going to tell me about the secret to wealth and success in the markets too. A master of the sciences, the financial markets, AND the deadly art of "Iron Palm." Wow again...you must be all knowing.

At least with me, though, my profile is basically an open book. Your profile is convienently empty. But, I am sure your twice my age and four times as experienced, right? But I understand that your profile is probably empty to disguise your secret work for the CIA _and_ SEC as a scientest, and financial investigator, right?  :rofl: 

Keep it up, Kenneth. Your only managing to show people the fraudulent troll that you really are.
 :mrtoilet:


----------



## Cruentus

I think that this article by SharpPhil applies in this thread:

http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/quixote.htm


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> I don't care to respond to this  as it is obvious that you will never understand.   The Yilli folks have tried in vain to enlighten you.




Hmmm,

I choose to not respond either since you will never learn as I and others have tried in vain to educate you. The only difference is that I have listened to them. I have talked to them and most have agreed to leave it as a difference of opinion.

Before I close, would you like me to reply?

I could ask my questions agin of the Yili group who would not answer me? They would not answer me? Why are they Liars? I do not know, since they will not answer me. Yet, I moved on and let it drop. Do you want me to point them to you when I ask again and bring up the old history, and all the issues?

Do you?

Yet, as a Nazi type of person who believes in doing anything not matter what the collateral damage is, I choose not to drop down to your level.

Enjoy you Day, I enjoy my weekend of training.


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Paul,
> 
> Your comment about what I posted regarding Iron Palm as being bizarre, only reflects your total lack of basic knowledge in hard style martial art training as well as your lack of medical knowledge.  That is the only reason you would find it "bizarre".  A knowledgeable hard style martial artist would have little problem in deciphering my info. The fundamental training technique is in the public domain. That is nothing new. What is new is my colleaque and I have incorporated transdermal delivery of chemicals that enhance recovery and reduce the risk tissue, tendon, ligament and bone damage. We have also modified the training procedure in accordance to new knowledge in physiology and sport science.  Excellence in martial art performance is in science, not in "tradition".
> 
> If someone doed not understand science, it is not surprising that he would find it "bizarre".
> 
> If anyone care to hound me over this (or anything for that matter), I certainly could not give a rat *** about it. lol      Bring it!   lol
> 
> Unlike the con artists, I am not in this for anything.  You or anyone's view or opinions of me, favourable or not, mean absolutely f@#$ S@#$ to me.  lol




KennethKu,

It is possible that just maybe someone might have a different point of view.

Let us take Light.

IT can be viewed as:

1) A Wave

2) A Beam

3) A particle with mass.

Now all individually describe what one can find in life, yet not one covers all to issues. Ans if you notice the Wave and Beam seem to contradict each other.

Yet, they are all usd in their place for a description to describe an event.

Open your mind my friend, someone besides yourself has the possibility of being right. And this is the absolute main porblem I have had and still have with teh Tilli personal. Not one of them admit that they might have made a mistake. They are too good for that. They are perfect.

 :asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Allow me to elaborate.
> 
> After being off for almost a year, I just got back being a bit more active in the online world.  Looking at the posts in MT forum, I couldn't help but missed the posters such as Martial Artist, Jill, the Yilli folks, Robert, Mike Clark etc.  It is truly sad to see how MT has degenerated from an informative forum into the "elementary school yard".
> 
> It saddens me to see  the facts being so liberally distorted. Mind you, these people who quit, did not get "done in" or could not "follow the rules".  They left because they were disgusted at the arbitrary enforcement of the rules, the lack of objectivity, fairness on the part of the Mod team. They refused to be associated with people who lack the sense of personal duty to speak out against moral wrongs.  People are incline to smear these people. The fact is, Martial Artist, Jill, Philip Starr, Mike Clark have never ever even gotten on a pissing match with anyone.
> 
> I am just sharing what has been circulating beyond the border of MT. It isn't a matter of my personal view or opinions. Shooting the messenger ain't get you anywhere. (Not that has stopped anyone from doing just that. Nor would I be concerned.)




KennethKu,

Please provide instances of when I Was not fair? When I distorted the truth? When I did not go above and beyond to try to discuss the issues, until thier frothing at the mouth took them to bite my hand also. I took that personally. They still think I was wrong to do so. Yet, once again they do not believe they have done anything wrong. Nothing. Yet, in my mind and opinion they did. They stated that my opinion was not valid and not anything to listen too. When people refuse to listen, I refuse to continue discourse and personally do not care what they think of me or theri friends who go around worrying about their reputations jsut like the people they challenged. They are in a brand new art, and cast stones at others. They all believe they are right. I believe they had some valid points, and that their approach was not well thought out. By the fact that they alienated me and others. You want to talk about who got the bad reputation? Just look who was the childish little four year olds that left and took their toys home to mom and would not play.

Open your mind and admit that maybe just maybe someone besides them and yourself might jsut might have a valid point. If you do this, then I will think highly of you. If you do not then you are as closed minded as those Nazi's you remind me of.  :idunno: 

I just do not get it.

Have a nice day.
 :asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Those who need to know, know what I am talking about.




Still looking in the mirror I see  :idunno:


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Just because I and a few people know something that you don't, it rubs your ego the wrong way.  lol   . There isn't a damn thing you can do about it. So you pound your chest and try to claim moral high ground by evoking the all mighty MT rules. lol.  Nice try, buddy boy. lol  You know damn well that I couldn't give a rat *** about any hassling. There is no chance in hell that I would disclose proprietary information into the public domain.
> 
> You see, Paul, not only in MA, but in your profession , ie money management, I am also privy to knowledge and skills that you don't. lol   I have read you highlighting your investment management career over many different threads.  I managed institution portfolios while you were still in school, Paul.   Tough huh? In a business where there are more ego than talents, where nothing is sacred and where the biggest whore makes the most money.  It must rubs you the wrong way to see other minions making millions and bringing hundreds of millions of assets while producing pathetic performance, huh?    I have met hundreds of semi intelligent guys like you. They have a reasonably good analytical mind and some social savvy. They delude themselves into thinking that they alone can produce superior returns.  Yet, years after years, they underperform the index and all they have are excuses.  Yeah well, you can outperform the market IF YOU KNOW the relationship between not just the probabilities of gain and loss but also the size of gains and loss.  There lies the secret to great wealth.  There ain't no secret to it. (The principle is obsecenely simple. But there is no chance in hell that I am gonna just give it away like that. lol ) It is just that those who have found it, keep it to themselves. Soros has found it. Paul Tudor Jones has found it. Marty Stewartz has found it. Just about every successful traders and investors have found it.  There are a million ways to make great wealth in the market, but they are all very hard to find.  I am sure that rub you the wrong way too, Paul.   Well, that just too f@#$%king baddddddddd......   lol
> 
> So you see, Paul, there is a big world out there and you sir is just a small fish. There are many people whose background you know nothing about, but outclass you in every dimenssion.  I bet that rubs you the wrong way too, huh? lol
> 
> Anyhow, enough of this OT BS.  (it was fun though)





Sir,

You come of arrogant and supremist.

You make statements that it is obvious about what you say yet it is not always or you do not provide all the evidence. You say people are nto educated, yet for someone like you to make this statment and to keep an closed mind, is contradictory.

As to small people, you may want to stop looking in the mirror before posting  You sir are nothing in the realm of MArtial Arts either. I do not even know who you are nor do I car. Is you name know by all? I do not think. It is so nice of you to contradict yourself  on the stone and glass housees thread.  :idunno: 


Man just open your mind and admit that someone else might have a valid as well.



(* As I have been gone all weekend I just replied to all of your posts here. This is nto a personal attack to you. I would like to continue positive discourse, yet, in that process you have to acknowledge that you have an open mind to be able to grasp new or different point of views. *)

 :asian:


----------



## tshadowchaser

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

tshadowchaser
Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-


----------



## KennethKu

Back to the topic.

If people want to know why the MT mods were so hard on Robert and others, here is the real reason, according to the inside track.  Mind you, I am only repeating what I have been told. 

You see, according to this source, several of the mods who make a living in teaching MA have either dubious claim of MA credential or questionable skills.  Robert and Mike Clark and the Yilli folks were fast on the trail when they sense something was rotten in Denmark (in this case, in MT world).  Robert started to ask questions about certain claims of credential and what not. Now, Robert, Mike and the Yilli folks are the true McCoy. They don't take kindly to pretenders milking the public.

After witnessing what happened to that con artist David Schultz, some folks began to sense that they were next on the cross hair of FRAUD BUSTING.  They suddenly had a divine inspiration, "*Those who live in glass houses should NOT allow others to throw stones*"    lol  They invoke the all mighty thunder rod : RULES!!  They got rid of the "trouble makers" before questions about their own martial art credential came public.   (What is funny is, they called these people all kind of names, yet, when they had no choice but to ban the con David Shultz, they never said one bad word about him. ) 

Now, before people jump on me, I'll just spare you the hassle. You see,this is NOT about my belief or view or opinion. Beating up on me won't do squat for you. I am just the messenger here, sharing with you what I have been told.  All these have been circulating outside the MT border.  Its common knowledge to a boatload of martial artists.  How you want to handle all these holes that you dug for yourselves is NONE of my concern. Just giving you all a tip-off, in case you haven't heard the news. lol


----------



## KennethKu

Paul,  I expected you to do better than to resort to name calling.  

Rich Parson, you wasted your breath.  I quit reading your posts long long time ago, let along responding to you.  I had enough of them when you were buttheading with the Yilli folks.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> You see, according to this source, several of the mods who make a living in teaching MA have either dubious claim of MA credential or questionable skills.



Translation: Someone with an axe to grind who was spanked for being a weenie has decided that he and his drinking buddies are the ones to determine what is and isn't legit. The decisions of acknowledged masters don't really matter because they don't follow our style, so therefore are questionable as well.




> Now, Robert, Mike and the Yilli folks are the true McCoy.



Translation: The Hatfields are our hated enemy.



> They don't take kindly to pretenders milking the public.



Translation: Only the "Real Deal" can milk the public.



> All these have been circulating outside the MT border. Its common knowledge to a boatload of martial artists.



Translation: Me and a few buddies who think we have all the answers have exchanged some emails.  Our boat is a canoe, seats 6 comfortably, and was handed down to us from on high but only the chosen few can ride.



> (What is funny is, they called these people all kind of names, yet, when they had no choice but to ban the con David Shultz, they never said one bad word about him. )



Translation: Us talking smack is good, and fair and just.  Others doing it is evil, and nasty.  



> Just giving you all a tip-off, in case you haven't heard the news.



Translation: Which you probably haven't since I can't provide any references.


Thank you Kenneth, we greatly appreciate you bringing us this horrible news.  It is a major tragedy.  I will immediately petition for full knighthoods of those so unjustly wronged here, and immediately shut down this forum.  I may commit sepuku as my shame and dishonor is so great, it can not possibly be cleansed otherwise. Perhaps my head on a pike will suffice?

Or would they prefer a halibut?

:rofl:  Please, continue this tale of woe and wrong doing and horror.


----------



## tshadowchaser

If you are Robert's messanger say so don't infer things that may not be true.
 If you have facts to print say so otherwise bugger off.
 If you are infering to me in any way with your qoutes then make your point. I'll put my 30+ years of trainning in my art up as reffrence. If you do not have equal or infact any instruction under my instructors then Where do you get your claims.
 Without proof of: 
	
	




		Code:
	

You see, according to this source, several of the mods who make a living in teaching MA have either dubious claim of MA credential or questionable skills

  I ask for an apology from you for all the mods. 
 Paper and internet warriors and those who make dubious claims on the internet are a dime a thousand and not worth that much.
 Back up your claims or shut up
 As for Robert  the man had tons off knowledge in limited areas he just couldn't stop putting his nose in where he had no knowledge, and makeing problems for no reason other than to try to prove himslef correct.  He also insisted in personaly attacking individuals. THAT is against the rules
 Hell I enjoyed reading much of what he posted.  Can't say the same for you KennethKu


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Paul,  I expected you to do better than to resort to name calling.
> 
> Rich Parson, you wasted your breath.  I quit reading your posts long long time ago, let along responding to you.  I had enough of them when you were buttheading with the Yilli folks.
> 
> Have a nice day.




Kendall dear, if you do not wish to read my posts and be closed mind that is fine.

You should spell my name properly. *Parsons*


Just like the Yili's you are afraid of me. You cannot attack me. You try, and I use logic and facts, and you use myth and hear say.

You cannot handle the truth.

 :asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Back to the topic.
> 
> If people want to know why the MT mods were so hard on Robert and others, here is the real reason, according to the inside track.  Mind you, I am only repeating what I have been told.
> 
> You see, according to this source, several of the mods who make a living in teaching MA have either dubious claim of MA credential or questionable skills.  Robert and Mike Clark and the Yilli folks were fast on the trail when they sense something was rotten in Denmark (in this case, in MT world).  Robert started to ask questions about certain claims of credential and what not. Now, Robert, Mike and the Yilli folks are the true McCoy. They don't take kindly to pretenders milking the public.
> 
> After witnessing what happened to that con artist David Schultz, some folks began to sense that they were next on the cross hair of FRAUD BUSTING.  They suddenly had a divine inspiration, "*Those who live in glass houses should NOT allow others to throw stones*"    lol  They invoke the all mighty thunder rod : RULES!!  They got rid of the "trouble makers" before questions about their own martial art credential came public.   (What is funny is, they called these people all kind of names, yet, when they had no choice but to ban the con David Shultz, they never said one bad word about him. )
> 
> Now, before people jump on me, I'll just spare you the hassle. You see,this is NOT about my belief or view or opinion. Beating up on me won't do squat for you. I am just the messenger here, sharing with you what I have been told.  All these have been circulating outside the MT border.  Its common knowledge to a boatload of martial artists.  How you want to handle all these holes that you dug for yourselves is NONE of my concern. Just giving you all a tip-off, in case you haven't heard the news. lol




Sir,

Please explain any and all issues with my credentials.

You as others who have run away from my discussion because they cannot handle me, have not answered my questions. Now you are also not answerng my questions. One of the big issues of Robert R, was people afraid to answer the questions have something to hide. I have nothing to hide. I think you and your friends do. So, I ask again where is the problem with my credentials? Where have I provided false information. You have provided hear say from a person. I have provided my opinion. You sir, are a third person throwing stones. Answer the questions here publically about me, for when you say Mods or Staff or Admins, you are speaking about me. Step up and say what you mean. Tell me.

Or are you afraid since you are behind the computer. You call others names for hiding or not answering questions. You have insuslted me like most of teh Yili people have. And as I do not have the satisfaction of knowing who you are or even caring where you live, I ask you to prove it pubicaly. Yet, you do not.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Translation: Someone with an axe to grind who was spanked for being a weenie has decided that he and his drinking buddies are the ones to determine what is and isn't legit. The decisions of acknowledged masters don't really matter because they don't follow our style, so therefore are questionable as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: The Hatfields are our hated enemy.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: Only the "Real Deal" can milk the public.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: Me and a few buddies who think we have all the answers have exchanged some emails.  Our boat is a canoe, seats 6 comfortably, and was handed down to us from on high but only the chosen few can ride.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: Us talking smack is good, and fair and just.  Others doing it is evil, and nasty.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: Which you probably haven't since I can't provide any references.
> 
> 
> Thank you Kenneth, we greatly appreciate you bringing us this horrible news.  It is a major tragedy.  I will immediately petition for full knighthoods of those so unjustly wronged here, and immediately shut down this forum.  I may commit sepuku as my shame and dishonor is so great, it can not possibly be cleansed otherwise. Perhaps my head on a pike will suffice?
> 
> Or would they prefer a halibut?
> 
> :rofl:  Please, continue this tale of woe and wrong doing and horror.




I think Kennie (* he mispelled my name, I mispelled his on purpose *) should go on a holy quest maybe a Shrubbery


----------



## KennethKu

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Translation: Someone with an axe to grind who was spanked for being a weenie has decided that he and his drinking buddies are the ones to determine what is and isn't legit. The decisions of acknowledged masters don't really matter because they don't follow our style, so therefore are questionable as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: The Hatfields are our hated enemy.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: Only the "Real Deal" can milk the public.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: Me and a few buddies who think we have all the answers have exchanged some emails.  Our boat is a canoe, seats 6 comfortably, and was handed down to us from on high but only the chosen few can ride.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: Us talking smack is good, and fair and just.  Others doing it is evil, and nasty.
> 
> 
> 
> Translation: Which you probably haven't since I can't provide any references.
> 
> 
> Thank you Kenneth, we greatly appreciate you bringing us this horrible news.  It is a major tragedy.  I will immediately petition for full knighthoods of those so unjustly wronged here, and immediately shut down this forum.  I may commit sepuku as my shame and dishonor is so great, it can not possibly be cleansed otherwise. Perhaps my head on a pike will suffice?
> 
> Or would they prefer a halibut?
> 
> :rofl:  Please, continue this tale of woe and wrong doing and horror.




lol   LMAO!   Very funny.  Like I said, take it anyway you prefer. All the same to me.  I am just sharing what I have heard.  lol


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> lol   LMAO!   Very funny.  Like I said, take it anyway you prefer. All the same to me.  I am just sharing what I have heard.  lol



And I am asking for Proof of he claims you have made against me.

Nothing more than what you have required of others?

I think you are a fraud myself. You have something to hide, if you attack me and cannot provide facts of proof.  :idunno:


----------



## marshallbd

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Allow me to elaborate.


Must you?




			
				KennethKu said:
			
		

> (....... Nor would I be concerned.)


If you are not concerned then why do you NOT let it go? :asian:


----------



## Seig

KennethKu said:
			
		

> lol LMAO! Very funny. Like I said, take it anyway you prefer. All the same to me. I am just sharing what I have heard. lol


So, if I am reading what you have just posted correctly, and I am, you arebasing your statements on hearsay.


----------



## Cruentus

Rich and others,

Be careful. I have seen what KennethKu can do to people with his deadly Iron Palm skills. 

See, check this out: http://www.fighttraining.com/fight_...unfu_movie.mpeg

(warning: somewhat graphic violence)


----------



## marshallbd

PAUL said:
			
		

> Rich and others,
> 
> Be careful. I have seen what KennethKu can do to people with his deadly Iron Palm skills.
> 
> See, check this out: http://www.fighttraining.com/fight_...unfu_movie.mpeg
> 
> (warning: somewhat graphic violence)


Wont open...


----------



## Cruentus

Sorry the last one wouldn't open.

Ahhh...here we go.

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/storyofricky/

Go to the bottom where they have a link to video.

You can guess which one is Kenneth...

 :boing2:


----------



## Bester

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Back to the topic.
> 
> If people want to know why the MT mods were so hard on Robert and others, here is the real reason, according to the inside track.  Mind you, I am only repeating what I have been told.



So, you have heard all this, yet seen none? Any chance your 'sources' might be wrong, biased, or plain clueless?



> You see, according to this source, several of the mods who make a living in teaching MA have either dubious claim of MA credential or questionable skills.  Robert and Mike Clark and the Yilli folks were fast on the trail when they sense something was rotten in Denmark (in this case, in MT world).  Robert started to ask questions about certain claims of credential and what not. Now, Robert, Mike and the Yilli folks are the true McCoy. They don't take kindly to pretenders milking the public.



Who is this source?  Who are those who are 'pretenders'?
Let me look at the staff of this forum for a moment.  
Bob Hubbard  blue belt in Modern Arnis. Trains under Tim Hartman, who trained under the founder of Modern Arnis.
Cthuhlu  another FMA guy under Ray Dionaldo who is an acknowledged expert in Kali.
Mike Seigel  Kenpoist under Dennis Conatser, who trained under the founder of Kenpo.
Rich Parsons  Another FMA (under Presas and Ted Buot)

There was also former admin Arnisador, who trained under Tim Hartman as well.

So far, I dont see any frauds hereunless your sources are calling Presas, Parker and Dionaldo frauds?

I dont feel like trying to figure out who was a mod when, so if you have something to say, do so, otherwise Id suggest you stop the slandering.

Now, in digging through those threads I do see that the main zero started to target TshadowChaser.  
In investigating the suggestion, I traced the lineage back.  
TshadowChaser aka Sheldon Bedell student of Master George C. Chartier  who was a student of GM Lagarejos. He also trained with the late GM.

So, who is the fraud here?  Bedell, Chartier or Lagarejos?

Is someone a fraud if they add some outside influences?
If thats the case, then I guess youre sources are dead on as Hartmans rep is he brings in different systems. I think even Capoeira.  Parker mixed, matched and adapted a wide range of things. No idea on the other FMA mods.

So, is this that narrow mindset of the if its not Funakoshi its crap that so many karateka seem to get when they have missed the message completely?  Is it inferiority complexes of those gajin trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese? Or just one insignificant flamer trying to seem important rather than impotent?



> After witnessing what happened to that con artist David Schultz, some folks began to sense that they were next on the cross hair of FRAUD BUSTING.  They suddenly had a divine inspiration, "*Those who live in glass houses should NOT allow others to throw stones*"    lol  They invoke the all mighty thunder rod : RULES!!  They got rid of the "trouble makers" before questions about their own martial art credential came public.   (What is funny is, they called these people all kind of names, yet, when they had no choice but to ban the con David Shultz, they never said one bad word about him. )



Ahh...an anarchist.  Now I begin to understand you.



> Now, before people jump on me, I'll just spare you the hassle. You see,this is NOT about my belief or view or opinion. Beating up on me won't do squat for you. I am just the messenger here, sharing with you what I have been told.  All these have been circulating outside the MT border.  Its common knowledge to a boatload of martial artists.  How you want to handle all these holes that you dug for yourselves is NONE of my concern. Just giving you all a tip-off, in case you haven't heard the news. lol



So, you come here, to slur individuals who can no longer respond, using veiled suggestions, hearsay, and can't back it up with proof?

Who told you?
Where is it circulating?
To whom is it common knowledge? (Common implies a large group, not a small group)
How big is this supposed boat?  Are we talking a carrier in size with a crew of thousands, or the log ride at 6-flags? Big difference.
What holes?
What news?

You seem to applaud those tactics, so maybe I will chase you down until you talk.


 :jaws:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Eh...that video is nothing once you've seen Iron Chef. 

As to things here...
Mr. Ku is entitled to his opinion. 
Anyone violating the posted rules on "Fraud Busting" will be dealt with accordingly.

If you aren't aware of them, here they are:
Forum Rules
Official Policy on Fraud Busting and Credential Verification.


----------



## KennethKu

lol. Very funny, guys.  Fun as it is, I am rather busy getting a new website online at the moment. I will address all the posts (or, may be only just a few lol) in a few days.

A lot of questions were asked. The funny thing is, all those who are concerned, already knew the answers, as to the "who", 'what' and 'why'.  lol.   Nevertheless, I will still humor you, if you would give me a moment. lol


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> lol. Very funny, guys.  Fun as it is, I am rather busy getting a new website online at the moment. I will address all the posts (or, may be only just a few lol) in a few days.
> 
> A lot of questions were asked. The funny thing is, all those who are concerned, already knew the answers, as to the "who", 'what' and 'why'.  lol.   Nevertheless, I will still humor you, if you would give me a moment. lol




Sir,

I openly call you a coward.

I openly call you a fraud and a liar.

You make statements about me and cannot prove them. You even refuse to reply, other than with veiled insults and or threats or snide remarks.

You claim you heard things. I claim you do not know what you are talking to.

This is my opinion of you and those who you hide behind like the little girl in a skirt. You stand up like a big bad man and throw insults and challenges and expect people to just step back and listen to you.

I would ask for an apology, yet I know those you hang with and they all refuse to admit when they may have made a mistake or even that a issue or arguement might have two sides. You closed little mind is nothing more than that of a coward who makes idle threats and rants and raves. Go home with your friends. 

Yes this might be counter productive, yet right now I feel like making a point.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Paul,  I expected you to do better than to resort to name calling.
> 
> Rich Parson, you wasted your breath.  I quit reading your posts long long time ago, let along responding to you.  I had enough of them when you were buttheading with the Yilli folks.
> 
> Have a nice day.



*KennethKu*

Why do you post here if it's such a bad place?


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

KennethKu said:
			
		

> something was rotten in Denmark



Actully, I just got back from there and it smelled pretty nice.
artyon:


----------



## KennethKu

lol   You need to see a shrink, Rich Parsons.  You have been trying so hard to pick a fight while being consistently ignored all the time.  

Calling me names is not helping your case. It only reflects on your level of sophistication and maturity.   (Heck, you can openly call me Elvis for all I care. LOL )

In any case, you were never in the cross-hair of fraud busting. I don't think anyone even pay any attention to your MA attainment.  Sooo, take a chill pill.


----------



## Rich Parsons

KennethKu said:
			
		

> lol   You need to see a shrink, Rich Parsons.  You have been trying so hard to pick a fight while being consistently ignored all the time.
> 
> Calling me names is not helping your case. It only reflects on your level of sophistication and maturity.   (Heck, you can openly call me Elvis for all I care. LOL )
> 
> In any case, you were never in the cross-hair of fraud busting. I don't think anyone even pay any attention to your MA attainment.  Sooo, take a chill pill.




So you admit that I did not filter the truth or lie about what happened?

So, you admit that I was not in the cross hairs, and thereby not a fraud?


Yes to both?


----------



## Don Roley

PAUL said:
			
		

> The key word is, THEY QUIT. I liked all the people you mentioned, and I wish they'd return. However, THEY chose to leave over a disagreement with the way the mods. handled something. I feel that this was the wrong thing to do. I think that the mods. do a fairly good job, even though they do make mistakes, as they are human. I have disagreed with them before. When I have, I have talked with them over it. Sometimes decisions have not favored my opinion. But, this is life. If I take my ball and go home everytime I disagree with something, then I'd find myself playing ball by myself.
> 
> They made the choice to leave, end of story. I wish they'd retract that choice and come back, but I don't think that MT should jeprodize it's values for this to occur.
> 
> PAUL



The problem is that their presence helped ligitimize many frauds. As you state, they had great knowledge. People would come to this board to hear what they and others like them would say. But so did many frauds who wanted others to marvel at their greatness.

A person who gives himself an eighth dan does not do so in private. He wants others to admire his greatness. So he goes out and does things to get that attention. Posting on this board as if they were martial arts masters is one of the ways they get the attention they so desperatly crave but do not deserve.

And they dispense advice and such as if they were eighth dan masters, but they do not have the experience to back it up. These types of people are a major source of bad martial arts knowledge running around. They do not know what they are talking about, but that does not stop them. Take a look at David Schultz's first thread he started. He tries to tell people who speak Japanese fluently that their definition of "soke" is wrong!!!!

On martial talk, these people can not be challenged when they make statements like this. They can be challenged in the Horror stories forum, but some have decided to just ignore the threads that the questions about them are raised and state that the matter was old news in any other thread it was mentioned- and then complain to the moderators that they were being "ambushed" in other threads.

Imagine if we could get Dan Insanto to post here. Can you imagine how many people would come here just to read the posts by a guy who best knew Bruce Lee? But, there would probably be a few Virtual Tough Guys who would also come here jsut to post about how they were Lee's true student, unknown to anyone else. Think no one would believe them? I just saw a Rialian booth set up at Kashiwa station last Saturday. If people would believe that crud- they will believe anything. 

So Insanto posts something about Lee. The fraud posts something else. Insanto takes offense because it is so wrong. He is not allowed to challenge the guy and expose him as a liar outside of one thread here in this forum. In every other thread, he can only give his side of the story and hope people understand that he is the only one telling the truth. But the fraud has more time on his hands and posts more and more. Now Insanto looks at a site that is well known because of the advice he gives on it, but the frauds are posting more disinformation than he can correct. So does he stick around or withdraw his participation?

Robert and the others were not as great as Dan Insanto, and they will be the first to tell you so. But there were people who thought martialtalk was a good site because they were willing to post here. Since the amount of fraudulance was getting more than they could cope with, and the rules prevented them from challenging people whenever they made comments based (supposably) on their skills and experiences, it was a natural choice to withdraw and let people who knew them know that they thought this place was more a source for bad information than good information.

Sticking around, as you suggest, would only legitimize the frauds they could not expose or confront due to the rules.


----------



## marshallbd

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Rich Parson, you wasted your breath.  I quit reading your posts long long time ago, let along responding to you.
> .


Now if that were true then half of your recent posts (quite a few of them!) wouldn't be on this forum........That quote is a response to a post you read........If you speak, speak the truth......otherwise.....*SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE!!!!*  :asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Don, there is a difference between those who left, and people like Dan Insanto.

A couple mind you.

International recognition
Many many articles about them in mainstream publications
An easily verifiable history.

10 minutes searching on Google will get you a ton of accurate info in him.

10 minutes searching on Google for you or I will turn up a couple threads on some message boards.

Big difference.

20 losers from the 'Soke of the Week club" doing the rubntug here trying to help elevate their latest fee payer to greatness is a bit more evident than watching an acknowledged expert share their knowledge.

Those 'busters' may be good martialartists...but outside of their small circles, they aren't known quantities.  1 has a reputation as a hot head.  Another a reputation for level headed, logical thinking.  I prefer to listen to the one who can communicate without resorting to ranting, screaming and threatening.

We have an advisory board consisting of several individuals who are world renowned experts in their fields, and/or were/are the right hand 'man' of their respective systems founders.  The staff here is currently made up of individuals who have earned black belt ranks in their systems, all of which are recognized as 'legit'. Most of the former staff as well are well respected martial artists.

It is to those people, we should go to with questions of 'legitimacy' and 'authenticity'.
Not some busy-body nobody who doesn't study the same genre, with a reputation for pot-stirring.

Half the arguments that were given I can accept, respect and acknowledge.
The other half don't apply.

See Don,
We never said "Don't unmask the fraud".
We said "Do it within these rules."
Following rules was too hard.
Not being allowed to do as they wanted, say what they want, how they wanted to...
That was the problem.

1 individual believed that sending profanity ridden emails, email bombs, threats, harassment, and stalking were all ok means to the end.
Maybe that works on some boards.
Not here. 

A line must be drawn, rules put in place, and enforced.
It was, they were.

The "you only protected the frauds" bit is lame.  I'm sorry if those frauds were more intelligent and could better move within guidelines. Not our fault if the busters couldn't prove a point without crossing the lines.  

See Don, there is a right way and a wrong way.
You can make a post without my email box filling up with complaints from folks about what you said.
The same can't be true of others being discussed here.

We wouldn't tolerate the cop who just did what he felt like, or the judge who did the same.  If there are rules of conduct for cops, lawyers, and judges...then what is so wrong with rules for 'fraud busting'?

We simply refused to allow this forum to become a den of anarchy, any-thing-goes warfare.  

Did that cost us some members?

Yup.  About a dozen.

Did the frauds get free reign?

Nope.  They eventually ran afoul of their need for attention.  Without the constant harassment making them seem like victims, their own need for attention revealed them for what they are.  They were over time either booted, asked to leave, or left on their own.

Do we miss the knowledge they had?

Definately.  But, we don't miss the headaches and problems that revolved around some of them.


----------



## marshallbd

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Imagine if we could get Dan Insanto to post here. Can you imagine how many people would come here just to read the posts by a guy who best knew Bruce Lee? But, there would probably be a few Virtual Tough Guys who would also come here jsut to post about how they were Lee's true student, unknown to anyone else. Think no one would believe them? I just saw a Rialian booth set up  at Kashiwa station last Saturday. If people would believe that crud- they will believe anything.
> 
> .


What is that?


----------



## Cruentus

Hey Don,

I understand your points. I just feel that there is a productive way to go about "fraud busting" and a non productive way.

Example of a productive way:



> OK folks,
> This originally should have been brought up in this section with no names other than the ones on the web sites in question. I do not want to be the subject of another vicious attack because I found this article on the internet.
> 
> http://www.ohiotkd.net/taekwondoreporter/page5.htm
> 
> You can find the orginization of Jack "Papasan" Stern here,
> 
> http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kyha/KYHA.htm
> 
> 
> Jack Stern was found by a court of law to have lied about his claims, including recieving a Medal of Honor. This is a fact. Not a story cooked up by a conspircy of people out to get someone else.
> 
> If you read his own site, you will see the use of many Japanese terms on a site devoted to Korean arts. It has been about a quarter century since I took TKD, but I still recall that the school is not called a dojo, rather a dojang.
> 
> Just in case someone wants to say this is just a vedetta by a few people that can set up web pages to try to prove points, I invite people to view this article at the CNN web site.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/US/9612/04/medal.without.honor/



This was a thread started by you, Don, here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8086&highlight=RSK

I didn't pay attention to the entire thread, but I think that this post of yours is a good example of "Fraud Busting" done the right way. You didn't name call or slam, or "stalk" anyone through the internet by slamming them everywhere they post. You presented your evidence in a clear manner, to let people decide for themselves. Not only did you remain within the rules, but your method here is VERY effective.

Now here is an example of a non-productive way to fraud bust that went against the rules. This is a thread started by a now banned member. I will not post his name, as he is not here to defend himself. The title of the thread was "Your Pathetic."



> "Hello,
> 
> Can Anyone give me some good Sword & Dagger drills to teach in my class. I really like how they help develop Eye/hand speed, timing etc...
> 
> Thank-you in advance.
> 
> Peace & Harmony always
> 
> ****"
> 
> 
> you are pathetic!!
> 
> how can you call yourself a teacher when you do not know what to teach and you are asking an internet forum for help on what to teach your class???
> i feel sorry for your students..... i know plenty of espada y daga and also garrote y daga drills, some of the basics include, arko, suyop, palakaw but you cannot learn them from a forum you must study with a qualified teacher....preferably the main teacher of the style (grandmaster)......
> 
> once again you are pathetic



This guy resorted to name calling and slamming to try to make his point. Not to mention, when he quoted who he was accusing he took the quote way out of context. Not only was this against the rules, but it was a very uneducated way of going about "fraud busting". Your way was more more effective then this guy.

I post these to examples to reinforce Bob's point: It's not against the rules to bust frauds, as long as it is done within the rules. RyuShiKan often stayed within the rules, but he also often broke them. When he broke them, threads got locked, and people got spanked. And, the irony is, that when RSK turned inflamatory, the majority of the public's attention became focused on how much of a jerk he was being rather then being focused on the fraud in question. So, breaking the rules has an adverse effect, IMHO.

I will say, though, out of all the headaches RSK caused the mods., he was only suspended twice I believe, when he did turn inflamatory. Most of the time he toed the line, and wasn't booted. 

Now my second point is regarding the rules themselves:

This is taken from "forum rules":

"A member who is rude, excessively negative, or disruptive may receive a warning or may be suspended or banned immediately. Suspending and banning is done at the discretion of the administration team. Any abuse directed at our all-volunteer moderation/administration team, including defying the moderators/administrators to suspend or ban a member, may result in an immediate suspension or ban. Membership on MartialTalk is a privilege, not a right."

Also, on Fraud Busting:

"Excessive Inquisitor style questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of excessive.

In addition, Hot Pursuit actions will not be tolerated. The Hot Pursuit is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and/or forums.

Members who become obsessed, inquisitors or interrogators will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum"

This is where I think RSK REALLY went wrong. If you do a search on his name, you'll find that he had a habit of turning most threads into a "fraud busting" mission. He clearly broke the fraud busting policy with his behavior. Not only was this "against the rules," but it degenerated many good discussions into arguements over credentials. And sometimes, he was chasing windmills. This may have been just fine for the 5 or so people who left, but it was not fine for the other couple thousand members.

I understand that you feel that with the rules and moderation as they are, "Frauds" can speak freely without being called out, which is therefore legitimizing. I disagree. First of all, you can call people out politely. I do it all the time. Besides that, I think that by outing the fraud in the appropriate section will do the job. Sure, not everyone goes to the "horror story" section, but when the mention of "credentials" comes up in another forum, a casual link to another forum where the person was officially "outed" (whether here on MT or elsewhere) should suffice. You show many good examples of posting links appropriately, which I think is a good way to go about it. My point is, there are other ways to bust frauds without chasing them around from thread to thread in an inquisitor-like fashion. The right way is effective in busting them, the wrong way makes people question the "buster" before the "fraud."

*Conclusion?*

I don't know if you, the people who left, or RSK himself will ever agree with me on this issue. The prevailing opinion of the handful of people who disagree with me seems to think that this forum would be better off if it was more lienent with it's "fraud busting" policy. I think that to do so would run the risk of this forum degenerating into an environment that most people don't want to be in. Furthermore, I strongly believe that not only CAN fraud busting be done within the said rules, but it is generally more effective when it is done that way.

Anyways, that's just how I feel.

 :asian: 

btw...sorry for the lengthy post, for one. For two, I don't habitually bring up people who aren't here, like RSK, but unfortunatily it is pertinent to the conversation.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

1 correction:
The "Fraud busting Poicy" was formulated in answer to the fraud-busting actions.  It wasn't in place specifically for much of the 'wars'.

The other rules however were.  A -great- deal of venom was spewed. Way more than most people would normally take, and a great deal of leeway was given..and abused, by all parties involved.  Some of the tactics used would have made the sons of Saddam smile, I'm certain.

Just as you have the privilage of training in a certain location, or shopping at a certain store, you have the privilage of being a member here. Walk into Sak 5th Ave in full biker gear, swearing like mad, and threatening the counter girl...you want to bet the cops will show up and escort you out?  Hell, walk into BurgerKing, throw your burger in the face of the manager and scream 'whats this crap!'....gee, not being treated nicely? Whose fault is that?

What is the difference if one shows up on an internet forum, full of 'the truth' and starts to beat everyone and everything into the dust?

None, IMHO.

Now, we have wasted alot of time here, rehashing a fight that ended over 10 months ago.  Mr. Ku has shared his information on how we are all universally hated and loathed by the elite keepers of truth (5 guys in a Kyoto bath house who had too much saki, and a few of their fanclub?  We don't know..he's too busy to back his insinuation up with facts.)  So, do we rehash old news, or maybe move on?

I think everythings been said that needs to, so unless mr. Ku would care to educate us, I'm suggesting this be locked and everyone move on.


----------



## marshallbd

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I think everythings been said that needs to, so unless mr. Ku would care to educate us, I'm suggesting this be locked and everyone move on.


Yeah!!!!  I'm with him!!!! :asian:


----------



## Bester

Don Roley said:
			
		

> The problem is that their presence helped ligitimize many frauds. As you state, they had great knowledge. People would come to this board to hear what they and others like them would say. But so did many frauds who wanted others to marvel at their greatness.



Many individuals like to marvel at their greatness.  Vanity is one of the weaknesses in man.  It also takes many forms.  Those who did the pursuit here, seem to have also suffered from it.



> A person who gives himself an eighth dan does not do so in private. He wants others to admire his greatness. So he goes out and does things to get that attention. Posting on this board as if they were martial arts masters is one of the ways they get the attention they so desperatly crave but do not deserve.



Another way is to pose as an expert on such forums, without the real world credibility to back it up.



> And they dispense advice and such as if they were eighth dan masters, but they do not have the experience to back it up. These types of people are a major source of bad martial arts knowledge running around. They do not know what they are talking about, but that does not stop them. Take a look at David Schultz's first thread he started. He tries to tell people who speak Japanese fluently that their definition of "soke" is wrong!!!!



I read that thread recently. People who do not understand a language have no right misusing it.  How many American martial artist are there screaming "Kia"?  Do they realize they are yelling 'yell'?  Then again, how many experts do forms without knowing more than the dance steps? 



> On martial talk, these people can not be challenged when they make statements like this. They can be challenged in the Horror stories forum, but some have decided to just ignore the threads that the questions about them are raised and state that the matter was old news in any other thread it was mentioned- and then complain to the moderators that they were being "ambushed" in other threads.



I've read the rules.  They do not forbid challenging. Only "fixations". Too many good threads here seem to have been locked after turning into little more than school yard bullying.  It was a shame, as the discussions had been very interesting, before being ruined.



> Imagine if we could get Dan Insanto to post here. Can you imagine how many people would come here just to read the posts by a guy who best knew Bruce Lee? But, there would probably be a few Virtual Tough Guys who would also come here jsut to post about how they were Lee's true student, unknown to anyone else. Think no one would believe them? I just saw a Rialian booth set up at Kashiwa station last Saturday. If people would believe that crud- they will believe anything.



That is true however regardless of the format. The difference here seems to be your example of Guro Dan uses a known quantity, where in the case of the fraud busting here, it seemed two unknowns were battling for supremacy.  



> So Insanto posts something about Lee. The fraud posts something else. Insanto takes offense because it is so wrong. He is not allowed to challenge the guy and expose him as a liar outside of one thread here in this forum. In every other thread, he can only give his side of the story and hope people understand that he is the only one telling the truth. But the fraud has more time on his hands and posts more and more. Now Insanto looks at a site that is well known because of the advice he gives on it, but the frauds are posting more disinformation than he can correct. So does he stick around or withdraw his participation?



A known quantity has the built in credibility to ride out such things.  The unknowns devolve into a he-said/she-said battle royale.



> Robert and the others were not as great as Dan Insanto, and they will be the first to tell you so. But there were people who thought martialtalk was a good site because they were willing to post here. Since the amount of fraudulance was getting more than they could cope with, and the rules prevented them from challenging people whenever they made comments based (supposably) on their skills and experiences, it was a natural choice to withdraw and let people who knew them know that they thought this place was more a source for bad information than good information.



Again however, that information is not readily visible. What good is information that is for the general well being, if it is kept in secret?



> Sticking around, as you suggest, would only legitimize the frauds they could not expose or confront due to the rules.



I humbly disagree.  Their polite presence would have done more to dispel than reinforce.

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the public to educate themselves using all available resources.  By withdrawing in such disorder and in such a negative way, it appears that the cries of persecution of the frauds was only reinforces, creating martyrs if you will, rather than showing them up to be the pathetic creatures they were.


----------



## chufeng

I'd like to clarify a couple of things.

First, I left of my own free will on "principle." I was not tossed or evicted.
I was warned twice, never suspended or banned (during the entire time I was here).
I rarely engaged in the type of exchange that is being attributed to "the YiLi's"

I won't rehash the past...you all are capable of reading through the posts yourself. 

Granted, certain people were dogged in their quest to out the frauds...
Perhaps lines were crossed...ultimately, the liars were exposed...so those who cried that "the emporor isn't wearing any clothes" were right...but they are now gone.

I still disagree with a policy that puts "nice" over Truth. The "behind the scenes" things that took place I was rarely privy to...those who say that Rob Rousellot and the YiLi folks were in cahouts are wrong...other than Matt Stone, none of us ever met Rob...but we certainly could differentiate between BS and someone who knew what he was talking about (and having met and trained with his teacher, most of us knew that the system he practices is absolutely legitimate)...it is not unusual that we usually fell on the same side of an issue.

I asked to be admitted to the forums to stop the spin on "the YiLi's"...
I believe we, collectively, offered a lot...some of you agree, some of you are glad to be rid of us 


> Kendall dear, if you do not wish to read my posts and be closed mind that is fine.
> You should spell my name properly. *Parsons*
> Just like the Yili's you are afraid of me. You cannot attack me. You try, and I use logic and facts, and you use myth and hear say.
> You cannot handle the truth.


Parsons...not a single YiLi student or instructor is afraid of you...take some medicine, it may help your paranoia. 

Some say that WE can't let go of the past...Hello-o-o-o!!! Who put this thread up? Who drug YiLi's good name into it? Get over it.

I admit to bad-mouthing MT on another board...but it only amounts to my disagreement with MT's policy on pushing "nice" over Truth...I vented several months ago and have not brought it up again...I'm over it.

I don't expect I'll be posting much...but I did want to set the record straight.
Kaith, Thanks for offering me the opportunity to post.

chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone

I haven't posted in a very, very, very long time.  I'm going to toss my 2 cents in, in addition to Chufeng's, to clarify things from my perspective...  I took notes as I skimmed this craptacular thread, so my comments are in the order I was offended...

1 - I wasn't booted, banned, nor am I currently closely watched on other fora.  If Bob can prove this, I invite him to do so.

2 - I wasn't "done in" as someone implied.

3 - I left on principle, something some folks who, thankfully, are none too active on the internet anymore, seemed then (and I suspect still are) in short supply of.  I didn't break the rules, though I may well have bent a few.

4 - Why am I (or any of the others) "wrong" for having left?  I left the board because I felt that it no longer met the standards I felt it had upheld when I first joined.  Rather that stay and give myself an ulcer everytime I saw another post from a Chiduce or an ARK, I left.  That eliminated the possibility of my finally losing it a la Falling Down and making an *** of myself.  Best decision for both parties concerned.

5 - *Rich Parsons* - WTF are you talking about in regards to questions that "the Yilis" have yet to answer?  Please, ask your questions here and I'll answer anything you like.  I seem to recall making a similar offer to you elsewhere and elsewhen...  But bear in mind, my answers may not be the ones you are looking for...

And Rich, we weren't "4 year olds taking our toys home and leaving."  We made the mature decision to leave rather than continue to implicitly support policies we did not agree with.  The decisions, actions, and policies in effect at that time were not to our liking.  Would you rather we have stayed?  What purpose would that have served?  I don't see how that was to anyone's best interests - mine, Chufeng's, nor MT's.

6 - *Bob* - You alleged upthread that we were "milking the public."  Care to elaborate how we are doing that?  I'd love to hear your theories, and I'd love to see some proof...

7 - *Rich Parsons* - Down here on Planet Earth, you'll find that I'm not afraid of much, least of all you.  I'm not afraid of you, nor any other entity on MT.  If you would care to outline how it is you've come by this fallacy, I'd love to hear the theory.  If your comment was a thinly veiled challenge, feel free to visit me up here in WA anytime to determine just how scared I am...

And I don't recall insulting you.  I do recall not agreeing that I had done anything wrong and refusing to apologize just to make you happy.  I apologize when I've done something wrong, and I have yet to be convinced that my actions in the past deserve an apology.  If you don't like that, find a way to deal with it and let it go.

Sorry for the disruption folks.  But in light of this thread and the fact that some of the "esteemed" staff here have chosen to drag my name through the dirt, I guess I'm baaaaack...

Enjoy.

And my name is *Matt* Stone...  Not Mike.  He's a fake ninja wannabe karate guy who made crap movies in the 80's.  He's well known and internationally famous, too, but still a fake ninja nonetheless...


----------



## Matt Stone

Iterestingly enough, while cleaning up my account information (since I haven't been active here in so long), I found this post I made back on 8 February, inviting MT members to the 2nd NW Throwdown that several of us put on on 21 February (one of the nice things about www.bullshido.com is that members there like to get together in person, learn new things, test theories, and have a good time).

In reply to my post, *Rich Parsons* wrote this:



> Glad to see you posting here Matt.
> 
> It sounds like fun. I wish you guys the best.



But then upthread on this thread he paints the picture of us being worthy only of his contempt.

Now, back in December 03, Rich jumped into a discussion between ARK, Chufeng and myself on www.canamma.com.  ARK wanted to initiate a dialogue between himself, Chufeng and I in order to put to rest whatever difference we might have.  We were chugging along nicely, and then as a new moderator, I decided to lock the thread (which was in a restricted access forum anyway) as I felt it had nothing to contribute to anything at all.  We had all said our peace, buried the hatchets, and decided to go our own ways.  I don't recall any of the issues regarding ARK being brought up by Chufeng nor I, and the thread in question was started by ARK.

Here's the URL: http://www.canamma.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1658  I'm not sure if anyone will be able to read it or not (restricted access forum).  If you can't let me know.  I'll see what I can do.

Anyway, right after I unlocked the thread and posted this message:


> The past is buried, the horse is far beyond dead.
> 
> I locked this thread, then unlocked it... I'm going to give all parties the opportunity to just leave this alone and move on.
> 
> The time for these issues has passed. We either move forward, or in the future we lock every single thread started that even comes near these issues.
> 
> I think I understand how Kaith, et al, must have felt "back then."
> 
> Nobody appears to have a problem with ARK personally anymore. Let's proceed from there...



Rich Parsons took it upon himself to jump into the thread in order to chide me for having locked it in the first place.  Apparently he wanted to have his say, and his panties got in a bunch because he wasn't allowed to hijack a thread that had nothing to do with him.  After a bit, ARK posted this:


> Well it would seem that this topic can now indeed be put to rest. Matt, perhaps it would be best for you to go ahead and lock it down as it seems to be drifting into conflicts on another topic with another poster. I did not intend for this thread to promote conflict, and certainly not issues of conflict with which I have no part.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, past conflicts are over, peace and love for everybody.
> 
> Dave



It seemed we were free and clear from further ARK issue spawned controversy.  But Rich kept on a'goin'...  The thread lasted 5 pages.  No cites of the alleged insults I made to Rich were ever forthcoming (nor do I care enough to search for them myself - he has a claim, he provides the evidence not me), and ultimately the thread was locked by a different mod (long after I had locked itand then unlocked it to allow Rich to vent his anger).

On page 4 of the thread, Rich admitted to deliberately baiting everyone just to see how much he could get away with.  He apologized for this, but then went on to say he was trying to help us grow as people.  I replied with this final post:


> Rich -
> 
> Let me speak plainly here, if I may. No sarcasm, no attempt at wittiness, no humor. Straight shooting, nothing more. Then I'm not going to address this issue again. Period.
> 
> You don't know me from Adam. Where you presume to "show me" anything is just that - presumptious.
> 
> Given that you don't know me, you cannot assume that you know enough to state with any degree of certainty what I will or will not do, nor what I am or am not capable of. I have kept my statements confined to responding to or rebutting what you have said in your posts. It is something I have learned through my job (criminal law paralegal), and it is something I do every day. But you have tried to imply some kind of insight to what kind of person I am offline. Big error there.
> 
> This thread was about ARK, Chufeng and me. Not you. You jumped in where you were neither wanted nor needed. If you had a beef, it should have been handled elsewhere.
> 
> Now, as to my ability to admit my wrong doings... Go back to MT and look around, do some reading, and you'll see that not once, but several times, I went out of my way to admit my errors, to apologize for incorrect information, etc. Not my fault you missed those.
> 
> I am all about acknowledging my own shortcomings. Probably to a fault according to some folks who know me. I am also all about keeping myself straight, which is the only thing I think I bring to being a moderator. I am just as ready to critically examine myself, my art, my teacher, etc., as I am to examine anything or anyone else. But I do my absolute best to stick to the facts rather than stoop to cheap shots that are always easy to take (not implying you do this). I stick to exactly what I know or what I can show, nothing more.
> 
> Lastly, I harbor no further ill will toward you, and am actually looking forward to meeting you at the camp (I did Modern Arnis for a brief time, and would love to learn more). But stick to what you know, and wait to critique me until you know me better.
> 
> I think we are finished here...



And then Rob Broad locked the thread.

*Rich* - as it seems to always go, ball is in your court.  I didn't bring things up, you dragged me into this, just like I told ARK I had let his issues go unless and until I got dragged into that.

And like in that locked thread at CanAm, I think we are finished here...  At least I am, unless and until someone drags me back into the fray.

Have a nice Sunday.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

chufeng said:
			
		

> I don't expect I'll be posting much...but I did want to set the record straight.
> Kaith, Thanks for offering me the opportunity to post.


:asian:



			
				Yiliquan1 said:
			
		

> 1 - I wasn't booted, banned, nor am I currently closely watched on other fora. If Bob can prove this, I invite him to do so.


To the best of my knowledge, you are correct. 



> 6 - *Bob* - You alleged upthread that we were "milking the public." Care to elaborate how we are doing that? I'd love to hear your theories, and I'd love to see some proof...


What I said was "Translation: Only the "Real Deal" can milk the public."
which was in responce to Mr. Ku's comment "They don't take kindly to pretenders milking the public." To clarify that exchange, Mr. Ku was refering to the idea that those with 'interesting' lineages were at best misleading, to at worst ripping off and harming the public.  My response was intended as a reminder that even with the right paperwork, credentials and techniques there is still room for fraud and worse.   It was -*not*- intended to suggest that he or his training partners were doing so.


----------



## Matt Stone

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> What I said was "Translation: Only the "Real Deal" can milk the public."
> which was in responce to Mr. Ku's comment "They don't take kindly to pretenders milking the public." To clarify that exchange, Mr. Ku was refering to the idea that those with 'interesting' lineages were at best misleading, to at worst ripping off and harming the public.  My response was intended as a reminder that even with the right paperwork, credentials and techniques there is still room for fraud and worse.   It was -*not*- intended to suggest that he or his training partners were doing so.



Cool enough.  No blood, no foul.  Done deal, I shan't revisit it.  Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Rich Parsons

chufeng said:
			
		

> I'd like to clarify a couple of things.
> 
> First, I left of my own free will on "principle." I was not tossed or evicted.
> I was warned twice, never suspended or banned (during the entire time I was here).
> I rarely engaged in the type of exchange that is being attributed to "the YiLi's"
> 
> I won't rehash the past...you all are capable of reading through the posts yourself.
> 
> Granted, certain people were dogged in their quest to out the frauds...
> Perhaps lines were crossed...ultimately, the liars were exposed...so those who cried that "the emporor isn't wearing any clothes" were right...but they are now gone.
> 
> I still disagree with a policy that puts "nice" over Truth. The "behind the scenes" things that took place I was rarely privy to...those who say that Rob Rousellot and the YiLi folks were in cahouts are wrong...other than Matt Stone, none of us ever met Rob...but we certainly could differentiate between BS and someone who knew what he was talking about (and having met and trained with his teacher, most of us knew that the system he practices is absolutely legitimate)...it is not unusual that we usually fell on the same side of an issue.
> 
> I asked to be admitted to the forums to stop the spin on "the YiLi's"...
> I believe we, collectively, offered a lot...some of you agree, some of you are glad to be rid of us
> Parsons...not a single YiLi student or instructor is afraid of you...take some medicine, it may help your paranoia.
> 
> Some say that WE can't let go of the past...Hello-o-o-o!!! Who put this thread up? Who drug YiLi's good name into it? Get over it.
> 
> I admit to bad-mouthing MT on another board...but it only amounts to my disagreement with MT's policy on pushing "nice" over Truth...I vented several months ago and have not brought it up again...I'm over it.
> 
> I don't expect I'll be posting much...but I did want to set the record straight.
> Kaith, Thanks for offering me the opportunity to post.
> 
> chufeng



Chufeng,

Ok no one is afraid of me.

Matt started a thread. One of the questions was about the dead horse story. I still do not see how it relates.


As to stop bashing YiLi, if this is your wish, then please do not bash me nor the Mods nor the Admins. You state that truth out weighs the nice factor. I respect that you have a different view from that of the posted board.

Why were threads locked on this other board, that has less rules? Why was I told not to reply because I was hi-jacking threads over there? Why Was I told that I did not belong and was just plain wrong. Yet, it were these tactics that the MOds adn Admins were asking you and your friends to stop using. Leave it the thread in question and not run from thread to thread, nor stalk someone. I agree that maybe you personally did not do this. Yet, everyone seems bent on using the terms Mods and Admins without naming names. Therefore, I refer to YiLi and friends, and I am sorry if your skin is too thin, if you beleive you have not done such.

In essence I believe you and others behaved poorly. You do not. Yet, friends of friends keep beinging this issue up. If everyone just let the issue drop, told all their friends to let it drop, had no secret agenda, then maybe we can all get over this issue that will in my opinion never be resolved completely.

Why? You and friends believe that the Ends justify the means no matter how many people get hurt. I believe otherwise. In my opinion the tactics used were that of bullying and multiple opponents like wolves to get the vitum running in circles until an opening could be found. This might work some places. I just do not think it is best here. Once again different point of views that I do nto think will ever be resolved. 

Yet, when everyone cries that we chased you out, and you your self point out that you left under your own. I thank you for this post. You see this points out that even though everyone thinks it is an Us versus Them, when there were individuals involved. I really wish people would just name the individuals involved, and not be generic and imply. Thereby my thin skin take affront to this action, and then replies in kind.

I know that we will most likely never see eye to eye. No matter how much we agree on the fraud issue. You and Your friends approach is different then mine. It reminds me of the cops who break into your house, destroy it and accidentally shot a family member because they were after a felon. Yet, they might have been on the wrong street or the inverted address. I know this is a setch for some, yet I see them as the same. If you can run rough shod, do you beleive the goverenment has the right to enter your house at will to find out the truth? Long philisophical discussion, like I said that we may never agree upon. 

I do recognize that you and your friends have passion for the martial arts.

I also recognize that you have knowledge I do not have access too.

Yet, I was told on this board and off of it to stay out of you and your friends way, and being dismissed like only your opinion counts and that of others does not count. This is another area in which we differ. I believe your opinion and words do matter, even more because they differ from that of mine. For I have the most to possibility to learn from difference and challenge. Yet, when open discussion is not allowed by those who demand that their point of view be heard and demand that it is correct.

So, by bringing up this discussion, I was hoping multiple things would occur, one this issue could be compeltely put to bed, and never brought up by anyone. I was also hoping to be able to resolve these open issues between us, because it seemed that we had no chance to go forward, and with other people constantly beinging up this issue and the mods and the YiLi's I find it hard to move forward.

You see even agreeing to disagree is fine by just so long as I am completely left out the issue. Yet when the Mods were refeneced I felt I had to reply and ask.

So, once again I ask you and all involved to please provide me with the proof that I have falsified information and or lied.

If it cannot, then I kindly ask that everyone please stop using generic terms, in describing people. Use the Tag or real name of the person, and make it specific. Avoid the confusion, avoid the issue of misunderstanding.

I apologize for the long post. I do hope this clears some things up.
 :asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> I haven't posted in a very, very, very long time.  I'm going to toss my 2 cents in, in addition to Chufeng's, to clarify things from my perspective...  I took notes as I skimmed this craptacular thread, so my comments are in the order I was offended...
> 
> 1 - I wasn't booted, banned, nor am I currently closely watched on other fora.  If Bob can prove this, I invite him to do so.
> 
> 2 - I wasn't "done in" as someone implied.
> 
> 3 - I left on principle, something some folks who, thankfully, are none too active on the internet anymore, seemed then (and I suspect still are) in short supply of.  I didn't break the rules, though I may well have bent a few.
> 
> 4 - Why am I (or any of the others) "wrong" for having left?  I left the board because I felt that it no longer met the standards I felt it had upheld when I first joined.  Rather that stay and give myself an ulcer everytime I saw another post from a Chiduce or an ARK, I left.  That eliminated the possibility of my finally losing it a la Falling Down and making an *** of myself.  Best decision for both parties concerned.
> 
> 5 - *Rich Parsons* - WTF are you talking about in regards to questions that "the Yilis" have yet to answer?  Please, ask your questions here and I'll answer anything you like.  I seem to recall making a similar offer to you elsewhere and elsewhen...  But bear in mind, my answers may not be the ones you are looking for...
> 
> And Rich, we weren't "4 year olds taking our toys home and leaving."  We made the mature decision to leave rather than continue to implicitly support policies we did not agree with.  The decisions, actions, and policies in effect at that time were not to our liking.  Would you rather we have stayed?  What purpose would that have served?  I don't see how that was to anyone's best interests - mine, Chufeng's, nor MT's.
> 
> 6 - *Bob* - You alleged upthread that we were "milking the public."  Care to elaborate how we are doing that?  I'd love to hear your theories, and I'd love to see some proof...
> 
> 7 - *Rich Parsons* - Down here on Planet Earth, you'll find that I'm not afraid of much, least of all you.  I'm not afraid of you, nor any other entity on MT.  If you would care to outline how it is you've come by this fallacy, I'd love to hear the theory.  If your comment was a thinly veiled challenge, feel free to visit me up here in WA anytime to determine just how scared I am...
> 
> And I don't recall insulting you.  I do recall not agreeing that I had done anything wrong and refusing to apologize just to make you happy.  I apologize when I've done something wrong, and I have yet to be convinced that my actions in the past deserve an apology.  If you don't like that, find a way to deal with it and let it go.
> 
> Sorry for the disruption folks.  But in light of this thread and the fact that some of the "esteemed" staff here have chosen to drag my name through the dirt, I guess I'm baaaaack...
> 
> Enjoy.
> 
> And my name is *Matt* Stone...  Not Mike.  He's a fake ninja wannabe karate guy who made crap movies in the 80's.  He's well known and internationally famous, too, but still a fake ninja nonetheless...




Reply to 4) Questions on the other thread. Thank You for starting it and being open enough to try. Yet as posted there, I think we will not come to a conclusion.

As to staying, if you had stayed or decide to post regularly, then this is fine. Follow the rules as posted, and I will enjoy the information. If an opinion of "I am always right and it must be my way or else everyone is wrong" which is how I read your posts, then no I will not enjoy reading. Yet if they are within the rules maybe others will.

No Threat meant. If I had that type of issue, I would not discuss anything at all with you. I might ask for a phone number to see if the voice could clear it up though. As to afraid, I asked, before and it was ignored until it became difficult to go back and find exactly. And I thought ti might be better to move on. Yet I do remember a post that was upsetting because you or one of your friends asked why a certain person woudl not answer your questions. Like I said you asked what they were, I replied on the other thread.


Reply to 7) As to the insult, here you felt you had to come back and defend your good name. Could that not be interpreted as an insult by me to you. Yet, if you did not have thin skin you might have let it go? Or it could be an issue of your perceived truth versus mine. You refer to planet earth. I enjoy it here. Your belief that any action is fine so long as in the ends you get what you want, does not fly in my opinion. I think we agree that this will not be resolved. 

And as to bringing it, I just remember being refered to as Mods and Admins. Therefore teh fraud busters were RR and YiLi's in general. If those who were involved use the specific names and not teh general then maybe the issue of principals on my part may not kick in and make feel like I should reply. As I would know then that the issue was not directly nor indirectly at me.

 :asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> Ok no one is afraid of me.



Thanks for verifying that.



> Matt started a thread. One of the questions was about the dead horse story. I still do not see how it relates.



I still don't know what you're talking about, other than the fact that ARK is no longer a member anywhere, and resolution regarding the issues between he, Chufeng and I was accomplished long ago...



> As to stop bashing YiLi, if this is your wish, then please do not bash me nor the Mods nor the Admins.



Disagreeing with the actions of the moderators of a forum is far different than "bashing" the art(s) they practice.  The issue at the time of the long dead flame war was one dealing with the staff, and so the staff was addressed.  Your issue is now one with individuals, not the arts they practice.  Your argument makes as much sense as me insulting Modern Arnis because I don't like the comments you've made...  Do you not see the flaw in your logic?



> You state that truth out weighs the nice factor. I respect that you have a different view from that of the posted board.



How can truth not outweigh politeness?  If niceness was the standard by which behavior must be measured, then there would have been all kinds of atrocities committed throuhout history...  It isn't quite the same, but I understand that Jeff Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy were both quite pleasant gentlemen...  Doesn't the truth of their crime outweigh how nice they were?  Again, that's a long stretch in comparison, but I think (hope?) you get the point.



> Why were threads locked on this other board, that has less rules? Why was I told not to reply because I was hi-jacking threads over there? Why Was I told that I did not belong and was just plain wrong.



1) I locked it first, Chufeng never locked it.  I locked it to keep it between ARK, Chufeng and me.  It was addressed to us, not to you, but it was addressed in that semi-restricted forum so that it could be discussed openly for any and all to _view_.  That didn't mean you had to participate.

2) Because you were hijacking the discussion between the three of us in order to address your ruffled feathers over wrongs long since over.  Again, it was an A - B conversation, and you were neither A nor B.

3) Because you didn't belong in the conversation!  It was an attempt between the three of us to address and finally reconcile the situation to the betterment of all three of us involved.  You made number four, and you'll note that you were never part of the original issue between the three of us...



> Yet, it were these tactics that the MOds adn Admins were asking you and your friends to stop using. Leave it the thread in question and not run from thread to thread, nor stalk someone.



We were asked to be nice.  We were asked to be polite.  We were asked not to call names.  We were asked not to pursue.  We complied.  Note, please, that we were never suspended nor banned.  That means we complied with what was asked of us.  Or did that escape you?



> I agree that maybe you personally did not do this. Yet, everyone seems bent on using the terms Mods and Admins without naming names. Therefore, I refer to YiLi and friends, and I am sorry if your skin is too thin, if you beleive you have not done such.



You admit that we weren't guilty of that, but because you took offense to our generalization regarding the support that the moderators and admin staff of MT had for their policies and for Bob's sanctions against RSK, you now pursue a vendetta against us?  A vendetta that has no foundation in our own actions?  That really doesn't make any sense at all...  Please, someone, point out to me how that works...

"Bill attacked Suzie.  Ray and Johnny, Bill's friends, were then attacked by Suzie's friend Tom.  They must be worthy of attack, as they are Bill's friends."

Logic test was just failed.

I told you in the thread on CanAm that the people I addressed were Kaith and Arnisador.  They are mods/admin, are they not?  Therefore, rather than name them individually each and every time, "mods/admin" sufficed.  I told you this last December, but it seems to continue to fail to register...



> In essence I believe you and others behaved poorly. You do not.



Please, if we behaved poorly, how, specifically, did we do this?  We were not suspended nor banned, so we must have kept our actions within the boundaries of the policies and rules, did we not?



> Yet, friends of friends keep beinging this issue up. If everyone just let the issue drop, told all their friends to let it drop, had no secret agenda, then maybe we can all get over this issue that will in my opinion never be resolved completely.



I don't know any other way to say this...

YOU ARE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT US BACK INTO THIS.  KENNETHKU MADE REFERENCE TO OUR DEPARTURE, BUT YOU ARE THE ONE THAT STARTED MAKING INFLAMMATORY COMMENTS ABOUT US, PROMPTING OUR RETURN.

Is that clear enough for you?  Please, look around and show me where either Chufeng or I have referred to this issue since LAST DECEMBER, when you interfered in ARK and our conversation...  You won't, because you CAN'T.  Because right now you are the torch bearing crusader against an issue long dead.



> Why? You and friends believe that the Ends justify the means no matter how many people get hurt. I believe otherwise. In my opinion the tactics used were that of bullying and multiple opponents like wolves to get the vitum running in circles until an opening could be found. This might work some places. I just do not think it is best here. Once again different point of views that I do nto think will ever be resolved.



A couple of things...

First, in MA, you work the opponent until an opening presents itself.  Once you see the opening, you should be halfway through it.  When you get the opponent on the run, you pursue.  Give him no chance to recover, because if you do you'll have to start all over again.

The ends *do not* always justify the means.  You are the one saying we think that, but we certainly do not.  However, at some point you have to make a stand, and we appear to be more prepared than others to do that, or so it seems.

Lastly, if someone comes into an open, public forum claiming the ability to fly, then it is going to be up to them to defend it.  If they can't, they absolutely *must* be prepared for the backlash.  If it is a well-trafficked public forum, then they *must* be prepared for multiple questions from multiple questioners.  That is precisely what happened.  How can there be any argument with that?



> Yet, when everyone cries that we chased you out, and you your self point out that you left under your own.



We left of our own accord.  We were forced to make that decision because of the actions, decisions, and policies of this forum.  I could not, in good conscience, remain following that flame war.  I disagreed completely with the decision to suspend RSK, and I disagreed completely with Kaith's follow up poll reagarding banning RSK.  Remaining here would be implicitly supporting those decisions because I would have been choosing to play by the same rules that allowed those decisions to be made.

So in effect, we were chased out.  Our conscience could not allow us any other option.



> I thank you for this post. You see this points out that even though everyone thinks it is an Us versus Them, when there were individuals involved. I really wish people would just name the individuals involved, and not be generic and imply. Thereby my thin skin take affront to this action, and then replies in kind.



I thank you for your replies, as it shows everyone, publicly, that you are still the one carrying the grudge.  My replies show exactly where I stand, and where I stood.  Please, if anyone has questions, ask away...



> I know that we will most likely never see eye to eye. No matter how much we agree on the fraud issue. You and Your friends approach is different then mine. It reminds me of the cops who break into your house, destroy it and accidentally shot a family member because they were after a felon. Yet, they might have been on the wrong street or the inverted address. I know this is a setch for some, yet I see them as the same. If you can run rough shod, do you beleive the goverenment has the right to enter your house at will to find out the truth? Long philisophical discussion, like I said that we may never agree upon.



You may not be far off in your example, but I'd offer that the family member may have been shot for noncompliance with police directives, and that the house would be repaired by the police as they didn't destroy it deliberately.  

As far as the Government entering your house to find the truth, certainly.  If the truth will save someone's life, property, or otherwise act in the public good, then yes.  If a fraudulent MAist is teaching crap techniques, labeling them deadly and lethal, but in fact they would do nothing to defend the student in question, then it should be a moral imperitive that the fraud be exposed publicly in order to save his students additional expense and possible danger.



> I do recognize that you and your friends have passion for the martial arts.
> 
> I also recognize that you have knowledge I do not have access too.



Not sure how to take that, but I'll just stick with "thank you."



> Yet, I was told on this board and off of it to stay out of you and your friends way, and being dismissed like only your opinion counts and that of others does not count. This is another area in which we differ. I believe your opinion and words do matter, even more because they differ from that of mine. For I have the most to possibility to learn from difference and challenge. Yet, when open discussion is not allowed by those who demand that their point of view be heard and demand that it is correct.



I don't remember that, but I'll just leave it with "if you say so."  If there is a conflict between a few people, I stay out of it unless I'm involved.  That's just how I was raised.  Maybe you were raised differently.  Whatever.



> So, by bringing up this discussion, I was hoping multiple things would occur, one this issue could be compeltely put to bed, and never brought up by anyone. I was also hoping to be able to resolve these open issues between us, because it seemed that we had no chance to go forward, and with other people constantly beinging up this issue and the mods and the YiLi's I find it hard to move forward.



How is it being "constantly" brought up?  You (how many times have I said this, now?) are the one that dragged "the Yilis" back into it.  If you'd drop it, it'd be dropped.



> You see even agreeing to disagree is fine by just so long as I am completely left out the issue. Yet when the Mods were refeneced I felt I had to reply and ask.
> 
> So, once again I ask you and all involved to please provide me with the proof that I have falsified information and or lied.
> 
> If it cannot, then I kindly ask that everyone please stop using generic terms, in describing people. Use the Tag or real name of the person, and make it specific. Avoid the confusion, avoid the issue of misunderstanding.
> 
> I apologize for the long post. I do hope this clears some things up.
> :asian:



And it comes down to the truth - this is all about you and your ruffled feathers by being referenced in a generalized comment about "the mods."  

Whatever.  I think that speaks volumes by itself.


----------



## chufeng

:asian: 





> Yet, when everyone cries that we chased you out


I was not chased out...
I was not forced to make a decision...

I chose to leave for the reasons I stated, period.

Rich,
I am not "thin-skinned,' I simply wanted to set the record straight here, on your forum. You have a tendancy to reshape the facts to fit your own, angry, world view.

The horse story must keep you up at night...so in the interest of helping you get some sleep, the story did nothing to advance the thread...but then, the thread didn't need to advance...it was a dead issue...I was hoping to close out that thread with the dead horse story...everyone else seemed to get the point...

I do not owe you an apology...you still haven't shown me, or anybody else a post where I insulted you...and I don't think you can because it didn't happen.

I can agree to disagree...so let's drop this, right here, right now.

chufeng


----------



## Rich Parsons

chufeng said:
			
		

> :asian:
> I was not chased out...
> I was not forced to make a decision...
> 
> I chose to leave for the reasons I stated, period.
> 
> Rich,
> I am not "thin-skinned,' I simply wanted to set the record straight here, on your forum. You have a tendancy to reshape the facts to fit your own, angry, world view.
> 
> The horse story must keep you up at night...so in the interest of helping you get some sleep, the story did nothing to advance the thread...but then, the thread didn't need to advance...it was a dead issue...I was hoping to close out that thread with the dead horse story...everyone else seemed to get the point...
> 
> I do not owe you an apology...you still haven't shown me, or anybody else a post where I insulted you...and I don't think you can because it didn't happen.
> 
> I can agree to disagree...so let's drop this, right here, right now.
> 
> chufeng



Chufeng,

First Thank You for replying again.



You say, there was no insult. Fine. I accept the agree to disagree. Yet this means we might not always post what the other likes unfortunately.

You made a decision, and your point of view differes from that of Mr. Stone, this is fine also. As you both are individuals. I respect that you made a decision.

I think my reply to Matt on the other thread will also help here.
 :asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Thanks for verifying that.
> 
> 
> 
> I still don't know what you're talking about, other than the fact that ARK is no longer a member anywhere, and resolution regarding the issues between he, Chufeng and I was accomplished long ago...
> 
> 
> 
> Disagreeing with the actions of the moderators of a forum is far different than "bashing" the art(s) they practice.  The issue at the time of the long dead flame war was one dealing with the staff, and so the staff was addressed.  Your issue is now one with individuals, not the arts they practice.  Your argument makes as much sense as me insulting Modern Arnis because I don't like the comments you've made...  Do you not see the flaw in your logic?
> 
> 
> 
> How can truth not outweigh politeness?  If niceness was the standard by which behavior must be measured, then there would have been all kinds of atrocities committed throuhout history...  It isn't quite the same, but I understand that Jeff Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy were both quite pleasant gentlemen...  Doesn't the truth of their crime outweigh how nice they were?  Again, that's a long stretch in comparison, but I think (hope?) you get the point.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I locked it first, Chufeng never locked it.  I locked it to keep it between ARK, Chufeng and me.  It was addressed to us, not to you, but it was addressed in that semi-restricted forum so that it could be discussed openly for any and all to _view_.  That didn't mean you had to participate.
> 
> 2) Because you were hijacking the discussion between the three of us in order to address your ruffled feathers over wrongs long since over.  Again, it was an A - B conversation, and you were neither A nor B.
> 
> 3) Because you didn't belong in the conversation!  It was an attempt between the three of us to address and finally reconcile the situation to the betterment of all three of us involved.  You made number four, and you'll note that you were never part of the original issue between the three of us...
> 
> 
> 
> We were asked to be nice.  We were asked to be polite.  We were asked not to call names.  We were asked not to pursue.  We complied.  Note, please, that we were never suspended nor banned.  That means we complied with what was asked of us.  Or did that escape you?
> 
> 
> 
> You admit that we weren't guilty of that, but because you took offense to our generalization regarding the support that the moderators and admin staff of MT had for their policies and for Bob's sanctions against RSK, you now pursue a vendetta against us?  A vendetta that has no foundation in our own actions?  That really doesn't make any sense at all...  Please, someone, point out to me how that works...
> 
> "Bill attacked Suzie.  Ray and Johnny, Bill's friends, were then attacked by Suzie's friend Tom.  They must be worthy of attack, as they are Bill's friends."
> 
> Logic test was just failed.
> 
> I told you in the thread on CanAm that the people I addressed were Kaith and Arnisador.  They are mods/admin, are they not?  Therefore, rather than name them individually each and every time, "mods/admin" sufficed.  I told you this last December, but it seems to continue to fail to register...
> 
> 
> 
> Please, if we behaved poorly, how, specifically, did we do this?  We were not suspended nor banned, so we must have kept our actions within the boundaries of the policies and rules, did we not?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know any other way to say this...
> 
> YOU ARE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT US BACK INTO THIS.  KENNETHKU MADE REFERENCE TO OUR DEPARTURE, BUT YOU ARE THE ONE THAT STARTED MAKING INFLAMMATORY COMMENTS ABOUT US, PROMPTING OUR RETURN.
> 
> Is that clear enough for you?  Please, look around and show me where either Chufeng or I have referred to this issue since LAST DECEMBER, when you interfered in ARK and our conversation...  You won't, because you CAN'T.  Because right now you are the torch bearing crusader against an issue long dead.
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of things...
> 
> First, in MA, you work the opponent until an opening presents itself.  Once you see the opening, you should be halfway through it.  When you get the opponent on the run, you pursue.  Give him no chance to recover, because if you do you'll have to start all over again.
> 
> The ends *do not* always justify the means.  You are the one saying we think that, but we certainly do not.  However, at some point you have to make a stand, and we appear to be more prepared than others to do that, or so it seems.
> 
> Lastly, if someone comes into an open, public forum claiming the ability to fly, then it is going to be up to them to defend it.  If they can't, they absolutely *must* be prepared for the backlash.  If it is a well-trafficked public forum, then they *must* be prepared for multiple questions from multiple questioners.  That is precisely what happened.  How can there be any argument with that?
> 
> 
> 
> We left of our own accord.  We were forced to make that decision because of the actions, decisions, and policies of this forum.  I could not, in good conscience, remain following that flame war.  I disagreed completely with the decision to suspend RSK, and I disagreed completely with Kaith's follow up poll reagarding banning RSK.  Remaining here would be implicitly supporting those decisions because I would have been choosing to play by the same rules that allowed those decisions to be made.
> 
> So in effect, we were chased out.  Our conscience could not allow us any other option.
> 
> 
> 
> I thank you for your replies, as it shows everyone, publicly, that you are still the one carrying the grudge.  My replies show exactly where I stand, and where I stood.  Please, if anyone has questions, ask away...
> 
> 
> 
> You may not be far off in your example, but I'd offer that the family member may have been shot for noncompliance with police directives, and that the house would be repaired by the police as they didn't destroy it deliberately.
> 
> As far as the Government entering your house to find the truth, certainly.  If the truth will save someone's life, property, or otherwise act in the public good, then yes.  If a fraudulent MAist is teaching crap techniques, labeling them deadly and lethal, but in fact they would do nothing to defend the student in question, then it should be a moral imperitive that the fraud be exposed publicly in order to save his students additional expense and possible danger.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how to take that, but I'll just stick with "thank you."
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember that, but I'll just leave it with "if you say so."  If there is a conflict between a few people, I stay out of it unless I'm involved.  That's just how I was raised.  Maybe you were raised differently.  Whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> How is it being "constantly" brought up?  You (how many times have I said this, now?) are the one that dragged "the Yilis" back into it.  If you'd drop it, it'd be dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> And it comes down to the truth - this is all about you and your ruffled feathers by being referenced in a generalized comment about "the mods."
> 
> Whatever.  I think that speaks volumes by itself.




Matt,

Thank You for posting. I think we are much closer than I expected.

Please see the other thread.


----------



## Matt Stone

Please see the other thread.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Can we agree that the RP/MS issues are being discused in the other thread, and either lock this (since Mr. Ku doesn't seem inclined to continue) or let it die?


----------



## Matt Stone

Kill it...  Kill it dead...

Then let's beat it some more!!!   :flame:  :boing2:  :lol: 

Just kidding!  Except for the kill it part...


----------



## KennethKu

Sigh!  Gone for a few days and look what the cat dragged in? lol

Good to see Chufeng and Yiliquan1.

They have done such a fine job in elaborating, that I have little to add, besides " told ya!" lol

I admire their attention to details. If I cared enough, I would put in the effort (at least try to, lol ), but I don't.  Heck, I don't even care about the pointless insult hurled by the rest of the minions.  lol 

As to the info I posted about certain mods have dubious MA claims and have been acting out of their self interest in hindering fraud expose,  you sirs, know who you are and EXACTLY what I am talking about.  Rest assure that the day of reckoning shall come.

Despite all the desperate attempt in white washing the issue as a matter of rules and policies, the underlying factor is certain mods' blatant siding with the frauds, in clear violation of neutrality and fair policing.  If you need evidence of such biasness, just observe how certain individuals on this thread are allowed to engage in name callings and other personal attack against someone on the opposite side of the mod team.


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## Bob Hubbard

Since Mr. Ku will not post links to the areas where were are being taken to task, matter closed.

If its that important, it'll turn up.


Thread closed.


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