# 1st Wing Chun class ....



## Mwolfe (Feb 26, 2004)

Tonight is my first Wing Chun class I'll be participating in.  I went there earlier in the week and watched a class to see how everyone interacted with each other and the instructor (sifu?).

The instructor seemed very knowledgeable and very open to other martial arts.  I liked that guy.  A few of the students were a bit egotistical and began telling me about their tournaments.  Point tournaments ...    :idunno:  

In any case, I wasn't too impressed with the student body, but they're the low ranks (a lot of light blue sashes, and one dark blue), so that was understandable.  It was funny, though.  I've already been invited to spar with one of them.  Crazy.  In any case, my first real class is tonight, and we'll see if I like it enough to stick around.  I have a Shodan in Judo so I'm just looking for a good art to help me close the gap quicker.  From the movements, it looks like Wing Chun could be very good.


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## Phil Elmore (Feb 26, 2004)

Mwolfe said:
			
		

> Tonight is my first Wing Chun class I'll be participating in.  I went there earlier in the week and watched a class to see how everyone interacted with each other and the instructor (sifu?).
> 
> The instructor seemed very knowledgeable and very open to other martial arts.  I liked that guy.  A few of the students were a bit egotistical and began telling me about their tournaments.  Point tournaments ...    :idunno:
> 
> In any case, I wasn't too impressed with the student body, but they're the low ranks (a lot of light blue sashes, and one dark blue), so that was understandable.  It was funny, though.  I've already been invited to spar with one of them.  Crazy.  In any case, my first real class is tonight, and we'll see if I like it enough to stick around.  I have a Shodan in Judo so I'm just looking for a good art to help me close the gap quicker.  From the movements, it looks like Wing Chun could be very good.



Where was this?


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## Mwolfe (Feb 27, 2004)

Madison Heights, MI
Sifu Phillip Redmond


Class went great.  Horse stance was kicking my ***.


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## Phil Elmore (Feb 27, 2004)

You might want to be careful about speaking poorly of your fellow students -- what if they found this thread?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 27, 2004)

They aren't his fellow students until he joins the school.
Even so, honesty should be accepted, even if it hurts.
I'm not saying it is, or ever will be, but it should be accepted for what it is, honest.

I'm glad you enjoyed class, horse stance is a big kick in the ***, but its good for you.

7sm


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## Phil Elmore (Feb 27, 2004)

There's honesty, and there's rudeness.  Say he stays there a month or two and one of his fellow students sees this post.  "Gosh, I wasn't very impressed with them and a few were egotistical" isn't going to go over well, regardless of accuracy.


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## leehoicheun (Feb 27, 2004)

Sharp Phil said:
			
		

> There's honesty, and there's rudeness.  Say he stays there a month or two and one of his fellow students sees this post.  "Gosh, I wasn't very impressed with them and a few were egotistical" isn't going to go over well, regardless of accuracy.



I have to agree with Phil, there is a fine line between honesty and rudeness. I happen to know sifu Remond and a bunch of his students. They never seemed rude to me. And their skills, in my opinion are exceptional.


7starmantis..... I'm sure you know you can never judge a book by it's cover. Here we have a guy who has never studied Wing Chun before. He doesn't know the finer details of the system and therefore might look at what they are doing and not be impressed. Once his training starts and he crosses hands with these guys/gals, only then will he know their true skill level. As for being "honest". I think he was rude...... he might have tried to be honest.... but it came off as rude. If someone joining my school said that about my students I would have a sit down with that person about martial virtue and ethics. 

Now I use this wave because I thought it was so cute artyon:


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## Shodan (Feb 27, 2004)

I think I have to agree with 7starmantis on this one.  I don't think it is a bad thing to state your first impressions- even if the students do read it here- I would think it a good thing for them to know how they come across to newcomers.  This guy is not a newcomer to martial arts and no doubt knows about martial virtue and ethics already by having come thru so far in Judo. If they came across this way to him, how are they coming across to other possible students?  If they find this thread later and he is now a fellow student, they can ask him to explain himself in person.  I would want to know if I or any of my students came across that way to people and fix it.

  Just my thoughts-
                              :asian:  :karate:


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## leehoicheun (Feb 27, 2004)

> we see ourselves in others



let me tell you a story that pertains to this subject and the quote I put above. 

There is a guy that comes to our school once in a while. Let's call him Fred. Fred and I met a few years ago at a school that I later became a teacher at. At the time I was just a guy who visited the school and kept very much to myself about my ranks in my system and my experience in Martial Arts in General. Right away he treated me like I was some begginer that knew absolutely nothing about the arts. He spoke to me like I was a child and didn't listen to a word I said.... he was so caught up in his own "Godliness" that he didn't even comprehend anything I said. Basically... he treated me poorly. A few months later when I was revealed by the head master of the school as having instructor level in Wing Chun and was asked to completely take over the Wing Chun instruction at that school.... Fred never said a word and soon after left the school. 

I taught at that school for almost 2 years before opening my own school. I always preach that humility is something we all need to master. That, from the lesson of Great Grandmaster Yip Man..... for every mountain there is a bigger mountain.

Well a year and a half later my school is doing well and always being complimented on the bahavior and friendliness of our students. We even added a new instructor.... let's call him Elmo. 

Elmo is a certified Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do and Kali- escrima instructor and one heck of a great guy. One of the nicest guys I have ever met. The type of person that makes you feel wonderful within minutes of meeting him. He's warm and engaging and he really knows his stuff. Well one day Fred comes to the school and meets Elmo and they talk for a while about this and that.... all related to martial arts. this went on for a few times more and about 2 weeks later Fred says to Elmo...._"You know, when I first met you I thought you were very arrogent and conceited.... a real "know it all".... but now I think you are a great guy once I got to know you."_ I was standing right there when he said this and Elmo was surprised. He couldnt believe that someone thought that he was this way being as he goes out of his way to be nice to everyone he meets. He is a Taoist after all. In my mind I was laughing because the first thing that popped into my head was the phrase I put above. When YOU yourself have a personality flaw, you often see it existing in others and usually they do not have the flaw you think they have. Your own perception plays tricks on you. I spoke with Elmo about it and told him about my first encounter with Fred, I told him the story about my first meeting with Fred and we both got a laugh out of it.

Now... not to contradict myself......... there is a twist to this. I saw something in Fred when I first met him...... so judging by my earlier statment it would mean that I was really seeing myself..... but here's the twist. If what you first saw never changes then it is truth. Meaning.... if the person is a jerk..... he's a jerk..... nuff said. Fred has always had that persona about him.... it has never changed. Elmo, from day one has been an awesome person to know. 

So what I have to say is this: don't judge a book by it's cover. Get in there and train. They might turn out to be your best friends. Think of it this way. Disney Co. goes out of their way to be internationally accept. They study every culture to make sure that their employees don't offend anyone unknowingly. For example: when someone from Disney points to something they use two fingers (the index & middle) the reason? In some cultures it is a GREAT offense to use only the index. Also, they are taught to never show the souls of their feet...... why? same thing.... some cultures find it offensive. BUT.... with all this research they still manage to anger some poeple and get critism for it. Why? because you can't please everyone all of the time. Sifu Redmond's school is a respected school and known throughout the world for thier excellence. But not everyone is going to like them. Should they worry about it? I dont think so........ they should just continue doing what they do. In the words of the Tao Te Ching: _"Seek others aproval, forever become their slave."_ what does this mean. It means they are NOT seeking Mwolfe's aproval. They have knowledge he wants. He has a choice on whether he wants to be a mature adult and put personal feelings aside to dig deeper into the REASON he is there. I'm sure once he does.... he will see that they are actually cool poeple.

ok ok... this was way longer then I originally intended. I hope it made sense. In closing all I can say is this. If you express your feeling about them and they find out.... they will not like it. They will even think you are being inpolite, rude and may even choose to avoid training with or teaching you. My advise...... train with them. If you don't like it.... leave.

good luck artyon:


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## Phil Elmore (Feb 27, 2004)

Put more simply, I can't see that it's a good idea to meet a group of students with whom you intend to train and immediately start talking smack about them in a public forum.


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## Mwolfe (Feb 27, 2004)

No smack talking intended.  I spoke the truth from a first impression.  If any of them can't handle that, I'll go somewhere else.  I've seen worse, that's for sure.

And, it was really only 1 student who was a little egotistical with his stories about point sparring, etc.  Already, I get the impression that he's the intimidator of the group -- sorry, I just don't play that way.  As for the actual level of the group, it's low.  Well, duh.  They're all new (grade 2, I believe) so it's expected.  Just like I was when I was the equivalent grade in Judo.  I wholeheartedly understand their mindset as I was there when I began martial arts.  I've grown up since then, and that's why I see it in them.

Sifu Redmond is top notch, but most of his high ranking students are in Canada.


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## littleyahiko (Feb 27, 2004)

Sometimes I find that people just communicate differently.  We all have a base language, and we all put our individual spins on it.  All the time I have trouble communicating with people because we do it in very different ways, but that doesn't mean that the other person or myself is being arrogant or egotistical, we're just conveying something in the ways we know how.  Of course, that doesn't mean that they aren't the impression that we get, but like everyone's saying, don't judge a book by its cover.  Perhaps those students talking about the tournament weren't being egotistical, they were just excited to see a new face, and in hoping you would join, they thought to tell you of their martial exploits.  And that could easily come across as bragging depending on how they did, but that's not necessarily the way they meant it.  Same thing about the story with Elmo and Fred, maybe Elmo was just so into what he was saying because he loves it so much that Fred took it as being egotistical, and it might have nothing to do with the flaws that Fred has.  But either way, people who are intimidators and are really deserving of the title because they have the skill to back it up are great people to learn from presuming you can get them to teach you.  They have takes on things that will definitely help open your mind.  But then again, I believe that every person we meet has that ability, seeing through the eyes of others is such a wonderful opportunity to expand our knowledge base.  Sorry to get off on that tangent...


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## Mwolfe (Feb 27, 2004)

Littleyahiko,

Great post.  I understand your point exactly.  I still enjoyed the class, and I'll be going back.  I've been around too long to let one incident make me run away.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 27, 2004)

Good points, although I don't see it as smack talking as he wasn't talking about their skill level or their techniques, but their attitudes. It doesn't take MA experience to see attitude. I'm not saying they had it, but I would think the students would like to know how they come off to new or possible students. Also, if he was wrong the advanced students should understand his lack of knowledge about wing chun and understand his mistype. Honesty is the key. If I came of wrong to a person I would want to know 100% of the time. 

7sm


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## bart (Feb 29, 2004)

Point sparring in Wing Chun? I thought that was interesting. Not a lot of Wing Chun into point sparring as far as I know. What kind of competitors do they go against and in what forums. I think WC would be great for that because of the emphasis on speed and straight lines. I've done a little point sparring in the past and although WC is not exactly meant for that, it can be used in my opinion as a good training tool. 

I had an experience the other day when I was going around town handing out flyers to schools about an upcoming seminar. Most of the schools were friendly, but when I went to a Choy Li Fut school called Eastern Ways in Fair Oaks California, they were somewhat condescending and a little "egotistical". I introduced myself with my given name and family name, and then when I asked the guy at the desk's name he told me "Mister" such and such. At first I bristled a bit. What did he expect me to do next, call him "Sir"? I've got like 10 years experience on this guy. Who is this guy to make me call him "Mister" when I just invited him to call me by my first name? What is this: 1950? They accepted my flyer which I was sure to be bound straight for the trash can and then after a little civil but uninteresting small talk, I left, relatively unimpressed with the attitude, the school, and the neon Gung Fu/Karate sign in front. I also never once said "Mister", but referred to them "ala jock" by last name alone. 

On the drive home I calmed a bit and thought about it. The guy was obviously proud of his teacher's school and the system that he's learning. Their rules may require other students to call the senior students "Mister" off of the training floor as well as on. There were a lot of things that I didn't know about their school because I am not an initiate. Some of those things came off to me as a bit "egotistical" and even a bit disrespectful. But it doesn't mean that those guys were jerks or that they weren't skillful or that their school doesn't have great stuff to offer. I came to understand that we just differ in our martial culture. 

In my kung fu training, on the floor senior students were "Mister", but the moment they crossed the tape into the lobby they became Larry or Brian, etc. In my eskrima we always went by first name. That is what I have come to expect. But I forgot somewhere along the line that they were not initiates to my background. So I may have slighted "Mister Such and Such" in his kwoon by not calling him "Mister" when I referred to him in our conversation by his family name alone. 

It's a good thing for the students to be proud of what they do and to engage in the "elite culture" of whatever style they're in. And it's also important of us to understand that there are differences in styles and systems and schools that make even the most basic of information exchanges a chance for someone to be offended or put off. When talking with other martial artists it is always a good practice to keep an open mind and remember that perhaps the protocols of the larger society should take precedence over the ones that you are used to in your "in-school" society.


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## Mwolfe (Feb 29, 2004)

They don't train for point sparring.  I guess a couple of the guys go and do those type of competitions.

Once I get my feet wet enough, I'd like to do those Full contact Jujutsu tournaments.  I think I'd fair well in one of those.


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## Phil Elmore (Feb 29, 2004)

I thought he meant that the students who point sparred studied other arts besides Wing Chun.  We have a few students who also study TKD, for example, in our school.


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## limubai2000 (Apr 19, 2004)

I fortunately had a much better introduction to my fellow students.  All my fellow students have been great and I've never encountered an attitude.  I don't think my Sifu would allow it.  

I wonder if there was a misunderstanding and it was over-enthusiasm on the part of Sifu Redmonds student maybe?  I know when I went through a period of about month feeling that I was unstoppable after 4 months of training and luckily my reading of Musashi cured me of that before I came to find out the hard way.  I think it might be natural for most martial artist to go through this at some point during their training.  

My situation being on Guam is that all the different arts that practice in my school (Jujitsu, Kempo, and us WC folks) get along fine and never really have any problems.  My Sifu grapples with some of the Jujitsu folks and I have watched them a few times.  But the other Jujitsu schools on Guam are caught up in bragging, challenging, and "my martial art is better than yours" mentality.  It can be quite disheartening at times.  I have not been challenged or anything but I have had lengthy discussion with 2 people who seem to think that their martial art was the be all end all.  To which I replied what I was taught "that there is no ultimate system, all systems, schools, and masters deserve respect".  That only served to incite 1 individual even further to which I exicted the converation as quickly as I could (the reading of Art of War paying off) and avoided the conflict.  

I also agree that honesty is the best policy.  Albeit I try to be as *tactful* as possible so as to avoid any conflicts.


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