# Pace Of Training



## RowdyAz (Jun 17, 2015)

Hi all I'm new here.  Was wondering if anyone else finds the pace of training quite slow at their  WC club? I find there is a great deal of theory and description of how and why which is essential but I can often leave training feeling I haven't done a real lot physically. Can't fault my instructors they themselves have never stopped learning. Each year they travel to Hong Kong to remain up to date with whats happening. They used to train their with the late sigung chu shoong tin. However I am always left wondering if this is how it is and I'm looking to much into it.


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## Phobius (Jun 18, 2015)

Ask your sifu about this instead of the forum. If he does not have a good answer for you then at least you can prepare for what is down the line.

Another question is how often do you actually train a week? If it is just 1-2 days a week perhaps that time is better spent on understanding and physical part you can cover yourself alone?

Worst case you might need to find another sifu if your visions of the art does not align.

As for own experience my sifu is currently trying to shape our bodies for a more natural movement which makes us more well adjusted for ground fighting as well as giving us a better structure in standing, less rigid. As for physical fitness, in terms of running and such that is left to ourselves to cover in spare time.


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## RowdyAz (Jun 18, 2015)

Interesting, I thought that was the idea of a forum. To ask questions. However with your attitude it's good thing your sifu is teaching you how to fight on the ground. Because that's exactly where you would be. Have a nice day sunshine


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## Phobius (Jun 18, 2015)

Being rude was not my intention, but rather helpful. 'Slow' is a term that is too individual and therefore most likely non-helpful to you.

If you however still wanted an answer as to how I perceive my own training then that answer was also provided to you in the end of my comment.

In regards to your second comment and its spicyness, no hard feelings to you. I could use the practise anyhow, not nearly as good now as I have hopes to become.

EDIT: I am really trying to help you, since you write about something that sounds similar to disappointment and the way the text is written hints that you want more out of your training. No amount of discussion on the forums can replace your need to actually talk with your sifu directly to see if things will change or evolve to your liking. And also to understand whether or not his goal with your training and your own actually aligns.

Of course I could have missunderstood the background of your enquiry or you are fully aware and chose to ignore it for now by waiting to see what happends. In which case then yes forum is a very good place to ask question and have as means of letting time go by.


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 18, 2015)

RowdyAz said:


> Hi all I'm new here.  Was wondering if anyone else finds the pace of training quite slow at their  WC club? I find there is a great deal of theory and description of how and why which is essential but I can often leave training feeling I haven't done a real lot physically. Can't fault my instructors they themselves have never stopped learning. Each year they travel to Hong Kong to remain up to date with whats happening. They used to train their with the late sigung chu shoong tin. However I am always left wondering if this is how it is and I'm looking to much into it.



Hi RowdyAz. Welcome to the forum.
I'd find another school if I were you! Reading the menu is fine, but eventually you have to order and dig in to see how it tastes. It's supposed to be a martial arts school, not a talk show. Heck, you could get all the theory and description you want from forums, books, DVD's etc. You're paying them to learn not to stand around and chit chat. When I was training, it was the exact opposite of what you are experiencing. We left each training session bruised, sore, dripping in sweat, exhausted, etc.


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## KPM (Jun 18, 2015)

I agree with Phobius.  If you are only with your SIfu 1x/wk, then you want to get as much theory and background as possible in that limited time.  But he should be giving you "homework".....drills and exercises to practice at home at least another 2-3x/wk.   Then perhaps as you progress in your understanding, sessions with your Sifu will become more "hands on" and less theoretical.  But you should certainly discuss this with him to come to an understanding for the best strategy for training and maximizing time spent.  Personally, I think I have learned just as much or more from training on my own where I had to think through what I was doing and why I was doing it.


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## Tez3 (Jun 18, 2015)

I don't train WC so can't comment on the 'slowness' of training but perhaps you could tell us what your expectations are of training martial arts and what you want from it? This may be more telling than whether your training is right for you rather than whether your instructors are 'wrong'. It maybe just that WC is the wrong style for you or your expectations of what it is are mistaken.


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## yak sao (Jun 18, 2015)

WC is counter intuitive to us as men. The smallest, wimpiest guy who is new to WC training will still try to out muscle his partner. That's why one of the first lessons is to relax.
Giving your sifu the benefit of the doubt, I would say he is taking this route.

If you are taught "a move" and then apply it at speed right away, then you are not going to be relaxed. but rather tense and jerky.
 A couple of things to keep in mind:
 Class time is for learning more so than practice.  Get with a classmate outside of class and drill the things you learn in class so that you can instill the concepts into your body instead of having a bunch of lofty, untested theories swimming around in your head.
Time is short in class, rather than waste your time filling it up with conditioning and calisthenics, your sifu is expecting that this is something you should be doing on your own time.
One last thing...
What are the more advanced students doing? Are they still playing patty cake and talking theory, or are they pressure testing what they've learned?

Your si-hings (older class mates) should be doing things at a significantly higher level than you.


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## kohamy32 (Jun 18, 2015)

Some schools teach slowly on purpose to get more money from students. Make sure you are at a good school.
You should always feel challenged and things should be regular but not so repetitive that you feel like you are not learning


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## Vajramusti (Jun 18, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Hi RowdyAz. Welcome to the forum.
> I'd find another school if I were you! Reading the menu is fine, but eventually you have to order and dig in to see how it tastes. It's supposed to be a martial arts school, not a talk show. Heck, you could get all the theory and description you want from forums, books, DVD's etc. You're paying them to learn not to stand around and chit chat. When I was training, it was the exact opposite of what you are experiencing. We left each training session bruised, sore, dripping in sweat, exhausted, etc.


----------------------------------------------

Good advice. Have to choose school and sifu carefully.


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## yak sao (Jun 18, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> When I was training, it was the exact opposite of what you are experiencing. We left each training session bruised, sore, dripping in sweat, exhausted, etc.



I don't disagree with this. But I think that there should be a gradual increase so that the new student learns to properly relax.
If you throw a frog into boiling water he jumps out....better to put him in warm water and turn it up slow....


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## Vajramusti (Jun 18, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I don't disagree with this. But I think that there should be a gradual increase so that the new student learns to properly relax.
> If you throw a frog into boiling water he jumps out....better to put him in warm water and turn it up slow....


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Poor frog


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## Danny T (Jun 18, 2015)

There is Training and there is Practice.
They are two different things.
Training is the process by which someone is taught skills that are needed. Usually done with an explanation of: What, When, Where, & Why and is performed with demos and within a time frame most of the students have a mental as well as physical understanding of what is being taught.
Practice is the performing or exercising the skill repeatedly and regularly to improve and/or maintain one's proficiency with that skill. Usually done slowly and relaxed at first and then with ever increasing pressure, speed, and resistance as one becomes proficient in it.


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## geezer (Jun 18, 2015)

Danny T said:


> There is Training and there is Practice.
> They are two different things.
> Training is the process by which someone is taught skills that are needed. Usually done with an explanation of: What, When, Where, & Why and is performed with demos and within a time frame most of the students have a mental as well as physical understanding of what is being taught.
> Practice is the performing or exercising the skill repeatedly and regularly to improve and/or maintain one's proficiency with that skill. Usually done slowly and relaxed at first and then with ever increasing pressure, speed, and resistance as one becomes proficient in it.



RowdyAz -- I agree with what Danny and  Yak and others have said. I teach a very small group and I simply dont't have time to spend on a lot of practice, conditioning and so on. That's on the student, the "homework"  that KPM mentioned. Now ideally, in a full time commercial school offering classes four, five , or more times a week, you would have both instruction focused classes and conditioning, practice and sparring oriented classes.

As Tez pointed out, if you would share with us your personal goals, we could offer better advice. It may be that you are in the wrong school, or just that you need to get together with some classmates outside of class to train really hard.

Finally, is your name just an alternate spelling of  "Rowdy-***" or, like JPin AZ, are you located in Arizona? _If it's the latter_, you will find a number of WC groups represented here including Vazramusti's (Augustine Fong lineage), mine (NVTO), JP's (HFY, and I believe Moy Yat), Jake's (DTE and other sources).... Also in AZ we have people representing Leung Ting and Emin Boztepe. I'm not aware of any TST people, but if they're here, I'd love to meet them.

P.S. I just saw where one of my words used above was censored and replaced with asterisks (*). I'm deeply offended. If I were making a biblical reference and stated that Sampson slew the Philistines with the jawbone of an ***, would I also be censored? 

Apperently so!!! Goodness me, what a world we live in!


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## KPM (Jun 18, 2015)

Steve!  How dare you say/write such a thing!  I am aghast!  ;-)


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## RowdyAz (Jun 18, 2015)

geezer said:


> RowdyAz -- I agree with what Danny and  Yak and others have said. I teach a very small group and I simply dont't have time to spend on a lot of practice, conditioning and so on. That's on the student, the "homework"  that KPM mentioned. Now ideally, in a full time commercial school offering classes four, five , or more times a week, you would have both instruction focused classes and conditioning, practice and sparring oriented classes.
> 
> As Tez pointed out, if you would share with us your personal goals, we could offer better advice. It may be that you are in the wrong school, or just that you need to get together with some classmates outside of class to train really hard.
> 
> ...





KPM said:


> Steve!  How dare you say/write such a thing!  I am aghast!  ;-)


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## RowdyAz (Jun 18, 2015)

AZ is my nickname and only two and a half years into wing chun. However I have 17 years experience in freestyle karate and ran my own club for 3 years. The reason I turned to wing chun was because my back was starting to hinder my training. Since training wing chun my back has given me no grief at all but in actual fact improved it. I love the theory don't get me wrong but I find myself at times doing stretches just to stay warm. I really appreciate all of your feedback because it has answered alot of my personal questions aswell as give me a bit to think about and assess. Thankyou


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 24, 2015)

Is there sparring or anything that "gets the heart rate up" as part of the class? 

My instructors tend to spend a lot of time getting the nuance of student's movements "correct" during drills, explaining theory; it can be fairly technical for the bulk of a class but we do reaction drills and lat-sau / sparring also.

When it comes to power I have been told "power and speed come with time, relax and get the mechanics right first" and I actually trust that after seeing the way they can unleash power is a springy relaxed way so I don't question the format. 

I can see how WC inherently could be very different from Karate / TKD schools where there is more "athletic" focus" and its common to line up and warm up with punches and kicks while the sensei shouts instruction for example; WC schools can tend to be more laid back whether that is good or bad. Some WC schools might have you throw 1,000 vertical punches in one class though, so it all depends on the instructor's preference and the skill level of the students.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 24, 2015)

Of course understanding principles are important. Schools vary on exercise intensities.
You can get all the exercise you want in good classes


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## RowdyAz (Jun 24, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> Is there sparring or anything that "gets the heart rate up" as part of the class?
> 
> My instructors tend to spend a lot of time getting the nuance of student's movements "correct" during drills, explaining theory; it can be fairly technical for the bulk of a class but we do reaction drills and lat-sau / sparring also.
> 
> ...


Hi. no there is not a great deal of sparring but a big emphasis on partner drills. Some of the stuff the instructors do you could almost compare to magic.Truly impressive and I have no doubt it's effective but the few times we do spar I find myself reverting back to my karate / kickboxing background because even after a couple of years I don't have confidence in myself with it.  The way you are describing your class does generally sounds similar to mine, so I will persist. As they said, you will not not always notice your improvement and then one day it all just clicks. Thankyou for your feedback.


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## yak sao (Jun 24, 2015)

RowdyAz said:


> but the few times we do spar I find myself reverting back to my karate / kickboxing background because even after a couple of years I don't have confidence in myself with it.



That's why I find it important to train slowly and without a lot of undue pressure with new students. It takes some time to ingrain new motor skills and reflexes into the body.
If you pressure test too soon, you will simply revert back to what you are comfortable with.


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