# Steve Arsenault Kenpo Clips



## Kenpojujitsu3




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## Touch Of Death

I'm a bit put off by these clips.
Sean


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm a bit put off by these clips.
> Sean


 
You're a bit put off by anything that isn't Kenpo 2000


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## Flying Crane

I dunno.  It just seems like the techs go on and on and on, way past the point of having any meaning.  This kind of thing has been discussed in the past.  I know, the idea is that you "automatically flow into the next move" if something doesn't go right.  I just disagree, I think he is taking a whole lot for granted, to work a technique out to move number 58, or so.  I mean, I think I saw a couple places where he applied a restraining hold, like an armlock, and then LET THE ARM GO! so he could go back to pummelling the guy, who kindly remained where he was, to be pummelled some more.

I personally think it makes sense to plan techs out to maybe 2 or 3, or perhaps 4 followups, but beyond that, you just absolutely cannot make any assumptions about what will happen, and to where you will "automatically flow" next.

Practicing like this doesn't give you something to flow into if the prior move went wrong.  The only way the bad guy will be in place for that next move, is if everything prior went RIGHT.  And if it all went right, there is no reason for the tech to still be happening.  It should have ended ages ago.  It's just making some dangerously false assumptions.  If the prior move went wrong, the guy is probably nowhere near where he would need to be for you to flow into the next move.  

I just think it's overdone.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> I dunno. It just seems like the techs go on and on and on, way past the point of having any meaning. This kind of thing has been discussed in the past. I know, the idea is that you "automatically flow into the next move" if something doesn't go right. I just disagree, I think he is taking a whole lot for granted, to work a technique out to move number 58, or so. I mean, I think I saw a couple places where he applied a restraining hold, like an armlock, and then LET THE ARM GO! so he could go back to pummelling the guy, who kindly remained where he was, to be pummelled some more.
> 
> I personally think it makes sense to plan techs out to maybe 2 or 3, or perhaps 4 followups, but beyond that, you just absolutely cannot make any assumptions about what will happen, and to where you will "automatically flow" next.
> 
> Practicing like this doesn't give you something to flow into if the prior move went wrong. The only way the bad guy will be in place for that next move, is if everything prior went RIGHT. And if it all went right, there is no reason for the tech to still be happening. It should have ended ages ago. It's just making some dangerously false assumptions. If the prior move went wrong, the guy is probably nowhere near where he would need to be for you to flow into the next move.
> 
> I just think it's overdone.


And he is too far away for that Thundering Hammers, breakes posture way too much, and fails to align his body with his outward motion.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> You're a bit put off by anything that isn't Kenpo 2000


True:angel:


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## IWishToLearn

Clips won't play for me.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Touch Of Death said:


> True:angel:


 
You're crazy man!


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## Empty Hands

I agree with the comments so far.  Also, it seems to me that the back collar grab in clips 2 and 3 would be exceedingly unlikely to work in a real conflict.  Also, the attacker in clip one had a poor neutral bow, sorry that bugs me.


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## Empty Hands

Also, Mr. Hawkins, I wanted to thank you for all the excellent kenpo related video clips you have placed on YouTube.  I have found them to be an informational and entertaining resource, and I greatly appreciate the effort.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Empty Hands said:


> Also, Mr. Hawkins, I wanted to thank you for all the excellent kenpo related video clips you have placed on YouTube. I have found them to be an informational and entertaining resource, and I greatly appreciate the effort.


 
I'm glad that the kenpo community is finding them of value. Salute. :asian:


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## Flying Crane

Empty Hands said:


> Also, Mr. Hawkins, I wanted to thank you for all the excellent kenpo related video clips you have placed on YouTube. I have found them to be an informational and entertaining resource, and I greatly appreciate the effort.


 

I agree, I do find the clips interesting, even when I am sometimes baffled  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## kenpotroop

I noticed his knee  checks and his pinning/checks were not there. Several times he was way too far away from the attacker and could not neutralize other possible attacks.


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## gixxershane

Empty Hands said:


> Also, Mr. Hawkins, I wanted to thank you for all the excellent kenpo related video clips you have placed on YouTube. I have found them to be an informational and entertaining resource, and I greatly appreciate the effort.


 

yes i second that... nice work.. :drinkbeer


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## BallistikMike

Technique demonstration would be much better if the actual attacker... attacked the demonstrator, instead of throw punches feet away from actual contact.

How can you demonstrate a technique or concept of the technique when all you need to really do is stand there and not be hit becuase the attacker isn't really trying to hit? Seems that punches are being thrown just to be thrown, not being thrown to demonstrate how to stop and counter attack the punch.

The grabs are pathetic. The intensity of any of those grabs could be stopped with a well executed fart. LOL.

Demonstration, video of practice? It doesn't matter, perfect practice makes perfect technique, sloppy practice...well thanks for the videos.


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## Kenpodoc

He hurries to much and forgets to complete his strikes. 

My the 16 year old son entered a self-defense compitition once. Everyone else was do their techniques similarto the demos above. We reviewed the attacks and I told him to be ready because I was going to try to hit him as hard as I could and he should pop me back so I responded appropriately. I thought it went well but he was dramatically down graded for excess violence. (It was a "karate" competition and he didn't draw blood and only bruised me once.) 

I still believe that the attacks need to be realistic and the dummies need to avoid the stone statue response to the defense. The defender should pop the stone statue at least hard enough to remind them to move. Also never move faster than your attacker can respond to your defense. I take selfe defense technique practice as the opportunity to learn to manipulate my partner into the positions I want and not as an opportunity to move as quickly as I can.

thanks,

Jeff


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpodoc said:


> He hurries to much and forgets to complete his strikes.
> 
> My the 16 year old son entered a self-defense compitition once. Everyone else was do their techniques similarto the demos above. We reviewed the attacks and I told him to be ready because I was going to try to hit him as hard as I could and he should pop me back so I responded appropriately. I thought it went well but he was dramatically down graded for excess violence. (It was a "karate" competition and he didn't draw blood and only bruised me once.)
> 
> I still believe that the attacks need to be realistic and the dummies need to avoid the stone statue response to the defense. The defender should pop the stone statue at least hard enough to remind them to move. Also never move faster than your attacker can respond to your defense. I take selfe defense technique practice as the opportunity to learn to manipulate my partner into the positions I want and not as an opportunity to move as quickly as I can.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Jeff


Control is a big part of a successful demonstration.
Sean


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## Blindside

Touch Of Death said:


> Control is a big part of a successful demonstration.
> Sean


 
He did show control, his dummy is still there and not bleeding.

When we do demos we get people who say "it looks like you are really hitting the other guy."  The secret is, we are.


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## Touch Of Death

Blindside said:


> He did show control, his dummy is still there and not bleeding.
> 
> When we do demos we get people who say "it looks like you are really hitting the other guy." The secret is, we are.


If you are refering to Kenpodoc's post, as I was, the judges weren't fooled by that little secret.
Sean


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Touch Of Death said:


> If you are refering to Kenpodoc's post, as I was, the judges weren't fooled by that little secret.
> Sean


 
Yeah! lets all do "no touch" Kenpo and then go on the street thinking we can hit someone.  Then when we show our art let's NOT hit to show control.  Better idea.  Let's actually hit each other and not hurt each other.  It takes more skill to make contact with no damage than to make no contact at all.  Any spaz can miss.


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## Blindside

I guess it is just a matter of opinion, I find most kenpo demos to be overly choreographed and overtly technical, it looks like, well, a demo not a fight.  The whole stone statue thing is annoying as um, heck.  

Lamont


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## Touch Of Death

Blindside said:


> I guess it is just a matter of opinion, I find most kenpo demos to be overly choreographed and overtly technical, it looks like, well, a demo not a fight. The whole stone statue thing is annoying as um, heck.
> 
> Lamont


It can be done without losing control.
Sean


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## Blindside

Touch Of Death said:


> It can be done without losing control.
> Sean


Again, control wasn't lost, hitting someone is not losing control, hitting someone and hurting them is.  It doesn't hurt (no pun intended) to have students that are trained to take hits and know how to absorb shots.  

Lamont


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Blindside said:


> Again, control wasn't lost, hitting someone is not losing control, hitting someone and hurting them is. *It doesn't hurt (no pun intended) to have students that are trained to take hits and know how to absorb shots. *
> 
> Lamont


 
No, this is bad.  It teaches them unrealistic lessons about what it actually feels like should they ever use this stuff. Wait a minute...


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## kenpotroop

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> No, this is bad.  It teaches them unrealistic lessons about what it actually feels like should they ever use this stuff. Wait a minute...



That theres funny no matter who you are


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## Kenpodoc

Touch Of Death said:


> It can be done without losing control.
> Sean


Dave never lost control. He could have hurt me at any time. What he did do is pop me hard enough and manipulate me to go where he wanted me to go. There was momentary discomfort but nothing serious.  Dave is not Huk Planas but it felt a lot like Huk doing a technique on me.  Momentary discomfort but I'm not injured.  That fits my definition of control.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc

Touch Of Death said:


> If you are refering to Kenpodoc's post, as I was, the judges weren't fooled by that little secret.
> Sean


Correct, they were looking for Dance Class and I don't come from a Dance school. It was no problem, we laughed about it and had a good time.

Jeff


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## IWishToLearn

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Yeah! lets all do "no touch" Kenpo and then go on the street thinking we can hit someone. Then when we show our art let's NOT hit to show control. Better idea. Let's actually hit each other and not hurt each other. It takes more skill to make contact with no damage than to make no contact at all. Any spaz can miss.


 
SPAZ!@? You mean it isn't a good idea to practice clawing randomly in the air and punching at invisible targets without any concern whatsoever for proper mechanics while doing so?


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## meta_aesthete

Wow. This is hilarious.

So, when I was 8 or 9, I totally took this guy's "Little Dragon" classes. Of course, he didn't do much instructing, but would come out once in a while to beat the snot out of some poor brown belt without actually landing a real hit.

He was great with us kids -- very charismatic and entertaining, and he moved so fast that it felt like a movie. But we were all little kids who didn't really get it. And in the case of my parents, neither of whom were fighters, it looked impressive enough to justify the tuition. 

But. Uhh. Yeah. I don't remember anything. Except this ridiculous "Star Block" kata that just had you throw blocks up, upper left, upper right, lower left, lower right, then KIAI! Rarely did we do any blocking in response to a simulated strike, except for a little point sparring. 

I got reprimanded for basically following through on my punch from horse stance and knocking down a girl in my class. Hey -- when it comes to sparring, I'm no sexist. I've had my clock cleaned by enough girls to know better. 

But yeah. This is really funny. The school is literally at a strip mall, between a liquor store and a billiard hall. And he's really good at hawking the merch. I got beat up once in middle school because I was wearing one of his fancy sweatshirts with tigers on them -- the local tough guys wanted a demonstration, and strangely the mystical "star block" failed me. .  .

Wow. Thanks for the memories, MT.


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## kenpotroop

Does anyone out there do spontaneous tech lines, we do them in bb class. Sometimes in Brown Belt class. We also strike a lot harder in BB class so you can get a better feel for it. In Sparring advanced classes we agree to more contact to makeit a little more realistic.


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## Blindside

kenpotroop said:


> Does anyone out there do spontaneous tech lines, we do them in bb class. Sometimes in Brown Belt class. We also strike a lot harder in BB class so you can get a better feel for it. In Sparring advanced classes we agree to more contact to makeit a little more realistic.


 
We start spontaneous attacks starting at white belt, we almost never do assigned tech lines.

Lamont


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## Kenpojujitsu3

IWishToLearn said:


> SPAZ!@? *You mean it isn't a good idea to practice clawing randomly in the air and punching at invisible targets without any concern whatsoever for proper mechanics while doing so?*


 
No, that's better than a good idea it's a great idea!  It's so great almost everyone seems to be doing it. Wait a minute...


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## IWishToLearn

Well I'll be a monkey's bare arsed uncle. Well, what say you brother - shall we jump on the band wagon or fire arrows at the wagon convoy? Me - I'm thinking arrows might be slightly more fun.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

IWishToLearn said:


> Well I'll be a monkey's bare arsed uncle. Well, what say you brother - shall we jump on the band wagon or fire arrows at the wagon convoy? Me - I'm thinking arrows might be slightly more fun.


 
I don't know if the arrows will work.  We'd have to make pretty BIG CIRCLES around the wagons to use them


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## IWishToLearn

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> I don't know if the arrows will work.  We'd have to make pretty BIG CIRCLES around the wagons to use them



So...boomsticks then? :flame:


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> I don't know if the arrows will work. We'd have to make pretty BIG CIRCLES around the wagons to use them


Sounds like heap big trouble. 
Sean


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Touch Of Death said:


> Sounds like heap big trouble.
> Sean


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## IWishToLearn

Can I bring out the boomsticks instead?


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## Hollywood1340

Blindside said:


> He did show control, his dummy is still there and not bleeding.
> 
> When we do demos we get people who say "it looks like you are really hitting the other guy." The secret is, we are.


 
You taught me that! And the same goes for us. Kenpoists....hehe!


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## mrdankenpo

I was the attacker in that first video clip. The clip was taken like 14 years ago. I did look a little stiff but I attacked the way I was told to. I take a little offense to the comment on my stance, I don't think my neutral bow looked that bad. I have improved alot since then under a different kenpo orginazation. I'm sorry if I have annoyed people with my stone statue response to the techniques. I just discovered those clips and read the responses and found that I was being trashed almost as much as Arsenault. I was young, nervous and told to just stand there while I got kicked in the groin and stuff. I like to read the responses to the demo's, most of you guys are correct.


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## Flying Crane

mrdankenpo said:


> I was the attacker in that first video clip. The clip was taken like 14 years ago. I did look a little stiff but I attacked the way I was told to. I take a little offense to the comment on my stance, I don't think my neutral bow looked that bad. I have improved alot since then under a different kenpo orginazation. I'm sorry if I have annoyed people with my stone statue response to the techniques. I just discovered those clips and read the responses and found that I was being trashed almost as much as Arsenault. I was young, nervous and told to just stand there while I got kicked in the groin and stuff. I like to read the responses to the demo's, most of you guys are correct.


 

Welcome to MT.  It is unfortunate you were put under the microscope without even knowing about it.  I personally think people should be careful about posting videos, because it represents only a brief moment in time and may not be an accurate representation of someone's true abilities.


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## Carol

Welcome to MartialTalk!  

If it's not too personal of a question mrdankenpo, you mention that you are a 6th Dan in American Kenpo now, do you mind if I ask what dan rank you were when doing these videos 14 years ago with Mr. Arsenault?


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Carol Kaur said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk!
> 
> If it's not too personal of a question mrdankenpo, you mention that you are a 6th Dan in American Kenpo now, do you mind if I ask what dan rank you were when doing these videos 14 years ago with Mr. Arsenault?


 
Looks like a 1st Black on that tape to me.  As to "being careful about posting videos" the Arsenault videos were posted by me at his request.  Besides, toughen up guys....being under the microscope is a good thing.   Others see things we don't see even if it is "old" stuff.  And if he have corrected the issues we were recorded having earlier there is visual proof of how far we have come.  Sounds good to me.  Personally I think that if you're going to be thin-skinned about what people think you look like on film you are more worried about others opinions and appearances than personal development and improvement.  Personally I use all the criticism I can get...it makes me hit the mats harder.


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## Flying Crane

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> As to "being careful about posting videos" the Arsenault videos were posted by me at his request. Besides, toughen up guys....being under the microscope is a good thing.
> 
> ...
> 
> Personally I think that if you're going to be thin-skinned about what people think you look like on film you are more worried about others opinions and appearances than personal development and improvement. Personally I use all the criticism I can get...it makes me hit the mats harder.


 
I think Mr. Arsenault's request to post this video did not take into consideration the Uke's desires.  I suspect it was not done deliberately, but sounds like the bottom line is that that the Uke might have preferred it not be posted.  Regardless of how you may feel about your own videos being posted, not everyone feels that way and not everyone wants to be a spectacle on Youtube.  Some people are more private about their training than others are.  It has nothing to do with other people's opinions of them, but it can be awkward and unwelcome to suddenly discover an old video of yourself up on Youtube being subjected to all kinds of criticisms when you didn't even know about it.


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## Touch Of Death

mrdankenpo said:


> I was the attacker in that first video clip. The clip was taken like 14 years ago. I did look a little stiff but I attacked the way I was told to. I take a little offense to the comment on my stance, I don't think my neutral bow looked that bad. I have improved alot since then under a different kenpo orginazation. I'm sorry if I have annoyed people with my stone statue response to the techniques. I just discovered those clips and read the responses and found that I was being trashed almost as much as Arsenault. I was young, nervous and told to just stand there while I got kicked in the groin and stuff. I like to read the responses to the demo's, most of you guys are correct.


If you were doing what you were told, I don't see how you can be faulted.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> I think Mr. Arsenault's request to post this video did not take into consideration the Uke's desires. I suspect it was not done deliberately, but sounds like the bottom line is that that the Uke might have preferred it not be posted. Regardless of how you may feel about your own videos being posted, not everyone feels that way and not everyone wants to be a spectacle on Youtube. Some people are more private about their training than others are. It has nothing to do with other people's opinions of them, but it can be awkward and unwelcome to suddenly discover an old video of yourself up on Youtube being subjected to all kinds of criticisms when you didn't even know about it.


Although Youtube did not exist at the time, he knew he was being taped. He just got the bonus showing. 
Sean


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> Although Youtube did not exist at the time, he knew he was being taped. He just got the bonus showing.
> Sean


 
It's true, and really to the point.  At the time, I suppose he expected the video would be shared only among a small circle of people.  The possibility of a larger audience didn't even exists.  Suddenly Youtube pops up, and the video gets posted where literally the entire world can gawk at it.  

I'll let him speak for himself from here on out.  But if it was me, i'd be a bit miffed at the lack of courtesy on the part of someone who had a video posted without asking how I felt about it, if I was a major (or maybe even a minor) player in the video.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> It's true, and really to the point. At the time, I suppose he expected the video would be shared only among a small circle of people. The possibility of a larger audience didn't even exists. Suddenly Youtube pops up, and the video gets posted where literally the entire world can gawk at it.
> 
> I'll let him speak for himself from here on out. But if it was me, i'd be a bit miffed at the lack of courtesy on the part of someone who had a video posted without asking how I felt about it, if I was a major (or maybe even a minor) player in the video.


The videos I'm on that I don't want posted are Legion.:barf: 
Sean


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## mrdankenpo

Carol Kaur said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk!
> 
> If it's not too personal of a question mrdankenpo, you mention that you are a 6th Dan in American Kenpo now, do you mind if I ask what dan rank you were when doing these videos 14 years ago with Mr. Arsenault?


I am pretty sure I got my 2nd degree that day, it was belt testing at Joe Palanzo's in Baltimore.


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## mrdankenpo

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Looks like a 1st Black on that tape to me.  As to "being careful about posting videos" the Arsenault videos were posted by me at his request.  Besides, toughen up guys....being under the microscope is a good thing.   Others see things we don't see even if it is "old" stuff.  And if he have corrected the issues we were recorded having earlier there is visual proof of how far we have come.  Sounds good to me.  Personally I think that if you're going to be thin-skinned about what people think you look like on film you are more worried about others opinions and appearances than personal development and improvement.  Personally I use all the criticism I can get...it makes me hit the mats harder.


I have got no problems with criticism, that is why I choose to be a student, even to this day. I have been a school owner since 1998 and have about 140 students enrolled. I am also the east coast director of a north east based kenpo organization. Alot of my students and collegues in the kenpo community have access and often log onto these sites. To anyone who knows me and see's the clips and reads the feedback I am made to look like a stone statue fool with a bad neutral bow. I just wanted to post so any of my students, who I hope are proud to be members of our academy don't think I am the laughing stock of kenpo. I don't have any bad feelings to those who post the criticism, I like reading them and think it is funny, I laugh at myself watching it after reading what people say about it. I was just setting the record as to the timeline and circumstances under which the videos were shot.


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## mrdankenpo

Flying Crane said:


> It's true, and really to the point.  At the time, I suppose he expected the video would be shared only among a small circle of people.  The possibility of a larger audience didn't even exists.  Suddenly Youtube pops up, and the video gets posted where literally the entire world can gawk at it.
> 
> I'll let him speak for himself from here on out.  But if it was me, i'd be a bit miffed at the lack of courtesy on the part of someone who had a video posted without asking how I felt about it, if I was a major (or maybe even a minor) player in the video.


Thanks for the back-up flying crane. Salute


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## Carol

mrdankenpo said:


> I am pretty sure I got my 2nd degree that day, it was belt testing at Joe Palanzo's in Baltimore.



Very cool!  Thanks! :asian:



mrdankenpo said:


> I have got no problems with criticism, that is why I choose to be a student, even to this day. I have been a school owner since 1998 and have about 140 students enrolled. I am also the east coast director of a north east based kenpo organization. Alot of my students and collegues in the kenpo community have access and often log onto these sites. To anyone who knows me and see's the clips and reads the feedback I am made to look like a stone statue fool with a bad neutral bow. I just wanted to post so any of my students, who I hope are proud to be members of our academy don't think I am the laughing stock of kenpo. I don't have any bad feelings to those who post the criticism, I like reading them and think it is funny, I laugh at myself watching it after reading what people say about it. I was just setting the record as to the timeline and circumstances under which the videos were shot.



Its cool to hear your side of the story.

The biggest issue that I have with videos on YouTube is that they don't tell the whole story.  I personally have a very hard time judging any martial art by looking at a flickering 2 inch screen on my laptop.   

While I think YouTube serves a purpose, I have yet to take it as gospel.  To see is to be deceived, to feel is to believe.  I wish more people followed SGM Parker's sage advice.


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## kidswarrior

Flying Crane said:


> I dunno.  It just seems like the techs go on and on and on, way past the point of having any meaning.  This kind of thing has been discussed in the past.  I know, the idea is that you "automatically flow into the next move" if something doesn't go right.  I just disagree, I think he is taking a whole lot for granted, to work a technique out to move number 58, or so.  I mean, I think I saw a couple places where he applied a restraining hold, like an armlock, and then LET THE ARM GO! so he could go back to pummelling the guy, who kindly remained where he was, to be pummelled some more.
> 
> I personally think it makes sense to plan techs out to maybe 2 or 3, or perhaps 4 followups, but beyond that, you just absolutely cannot make any assumptions about what will happen, and to where you will "automatically flow" next.
> 
> Practicing like this doesn't give you something to flow into if the prior move went wrong.  The only way the bad guy will be in place for that next move, is if everything prior went RIGHT.  And if it all went right, there is no reason for the tech to still be happening.  It should have ended ages ago.  It's just making some dangerously false assumptions.  If the prior move went wrong, the guy is probably nowhere near where he would need to be for you to flow into the next move.
> 
> I just think it's overdone.



This is absolutely the central point of it all. Another thread recently posed a question about why Kenpo is denigrated by some as a 'slapping' art. Parts of these vids give an answer. I only watched parts of them, because I couldn't take anymore. The assumptions, as Flying Crane said, are as endless as the techniques. 3-4 moves with power, focus, and intention should be enough, and if not, then the opponent has hit the reset button and we're starting over. Now I have to worry--again--about perhaps the most dangerous part of any fight, the initial engagement.


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## kidswarrior

mrdankenpo said:


> I was the attacker in that first video clip. The clip was taken like 14 years ago. I did look a little stiff but I attacked the way I was told to. I take a little offense to the comment on my stance, I don't think my neutral bow looked that bad. I have improved alot since then under a different kenpo orginazation. I'm sorry if I have annoyed people with my stone statue response to the techniques. I just discovered those clips and read the responses and found that I was being trashed almost as much as Arsenault. I was young, nervous and told to just stand there while I got kicked in the groin and stuff. I like to read the responses to the demo's, most of you guys are correct.



I post responses as I read through a thread, so hadn't gotten this far before my first post (which appears on page 4, I think --late to the dance and all). If it comes off as critical of any one, and especially you, please accept my apologies. My problem is not with any of the artists, but with a certain way we practice the arts, with these huge, very suspect preconceptions that go somethig like: If I do A, I can count on his body doing B, and then carrying that line of thought through much of the alphabet. The SK which I learned (not to speak for anyone else), seems to do too much of that.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

mrdankenpo said:


> I have got no problems with criticism, that is why I choose to be a student, even to this day. I have been a school owner since 1998 and have about 140 students enrolled. I am also the east coast director of a north east based kenpo organization. Alot of my students and collegues in the kenpo community have access and often log onto these sites. To anyone who knows me and see's the clips and reads the feedback* I am made to look like a stone statue fool with a bad neutral bow. *I just wanted to post so any of my students, who I hope are proud to be members of our academy don't think I am the laughing stock of kenpo. I don't have any bad feelings to those who post the criticism, I like reading them and think it is funny, I laugh at myself watching it after reading what people say about it. I was just setting the record as to the timeline and circumstances under which the videos were shot.


 
No you don't look like a stone statue fool with a bad neutral.  You like someone who has being swung on at high speed and preferred to stay still to avoid getting caught the wrong way accidently.  I have yet to see a laughing stock "Uke".  Anyone who can't see things like that...it's best to ignore their comments.  Also you have 140 enrolled.  That's 140 that think you're worth learning from as opposed to the one or two that think you sucked.......over a decade ago.  140 to 1 ain't bad odds.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Flying Crane said:


> It's true, and really to the point. At the time, I suppose he expected the video would be shared only among a small circle of people. The possibility of a larger audience didn't even exists. Suddenly Youtube pops up, and the video gets posted where literally the entire world can gawk at it.
> 
> I'll let him speak for himself from here on out. But if it was me, i'd be a bit miffed at the lack of courtesy on the part of someone who had a video posted without asking how I felt about it, if I was a major (or maybe even a minor) player in the video.


 
Then miffed you shall be when I get my hands on video of you LOL.  My thought is this.  When you get taped doing something and you don't have the tape you do not know what's going to happen with the tape.  If you don't like it, don't get taped.  Secondly this particular tape was mass produced as part of a marketing tape for that Kenpo organization.  It was already available to the world over a decade ago.  If you're that worried about people seeing you practice your art then do it in secrecy like they used to do.  No spectators, No Cameras, No Camcorders, No Windows.....


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## Kenpodoc

mrdankenpo said:


> I was the attacker in that first video clip. The clip was taken like 14 years ago. I did look a little stiff but I attacked the way I was told to. I take a little offense to the comment on my stance, I don't think my neutral bow looked that bad. I have improved alot since then under a different kenpo orginazation. I'm sorry if I have annoyed people with my stone statue response to the techniques. I just discovered those clips and read the responses and found that I was being trashed almost as much as Arsenault. I was young, nervous and told to just stand there while I got kicked in the groin and stuff. I like to read the responses to the demo's, most of you guys are correct.


Actually I thought that you looked like you were doing what you were told to do.  It is the responsibility of the "skilled" defender in the self defense techniques to put the attacker where they need to be.  Anyway, who knew 14 years ago that any of this would be out there for the world to see.

thanks for posting,

Jeff


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Flying Crane said:


> I think Mr. Arsenault's request to post this video did not take into consideration the Uke's desires. I suspect it was not done deliberately, but sounds like the bottom line is that that the Uke might have preferred it not be posted. Regardless of how you may feel about your own videos being posted, not everyone feels that way and not everyone wants to be a spectacle on Youtube. *Some people are more private about their training than others are. *It has nothing to do with other people's opinions of them, but it can be awkward and unwelcome to suddenly discover an old video of yourself up on Youtube being subjected to all kinds of criticisms when you didn't even know about it.


 
How private can you be at an open test, at a commercial school a few feet from a video camera that you are directly facing?  That's 3 counts against privacy right there.  The problem ain't the tapes and videos.  It's how people take criticism.  It's no different than when it's done face to face.  Some take it and roll with it some get offended because someone thought they were less than perfect.


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## kidswarrior

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> The problem ain't the tapes and videos. It's how people take criticism. It's no different than when it's done face to face. Some take it and roll with it some get offended because someone thought they were less than perfect.


 
Not to get OT, but you've raised an important point. Maybe besides being able to take criticism, it's also _how_ the criticism is delivered. There is some trust necessary between an artist and a reviewer, or student and teacher. For example, if I harshly correct one of my students, especially in public, I may lose them because they might (rightly) feel I broke that trust. But if I use some circumspection and a little finesse in correcting their technique, I still make the point that I can't approve of their technique as just performed, but I still approve of them as people and students.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

kidswarrior said:


> Not to get OT, but you've raised an important point. Maybe besides being able to take criticism, it's also _how_ the criticism is delivered. There is some trust necessary between an artist and a reviewer, or student and teacher. For example, if I harshly correct one of my students, especially in public, I may lose them because they might (rightly) feel I broke that trust. But if I use some circumspection and a little finesse in correcting their technique, I still make the point that I can't approve of their technique as just performed, but I still approve of them as people and students.


 
Yup, and there lies one of the flaws of the internet.  People can criticize without fear of repercussion due to the anonimity factor.  Many that always have something to say about someone else's skill are never willing to put their own stuff "out there" for critique.  It's easy to take shots when there are no guns pointed your way. Agreed.


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## mrdankenpo

I had no idea my posting a response would draw so much attention. Just to set the record straight concerning me: To Kenpojujitsu3, I am glad you posted the videos on the sites, they bring back alot of memories and I have gotten alot of laughs reading what the community thinks of them. My initial response was to let anyone who sees this in the future knows that the mrdankenpo seen in the video attacking the empty space around the defender in a stone statue fasion knows it is an old video. I teach my students that accuracy is #1, power then speed follow. A neutral bow is 50/50 weight dist. toe heel alignment and generally shoulder width apart, knees bent. I may not have been remotly close to perfect 14 or so years ago but today I practice what I teach. To Touch of death, Flying crane, Kenpo doc, Kidswarrior and Carol Kaur, thanks for the feedback, weather good or bad, I do like it all. I was a young black belt at the time of this video, had about 5-10 minutes of practice with Arsenault before the demo,and had no idea what he was going to do, as seen in the video, none of the techniques were textbook. I was standing in front of a seated panel consisting of Joe Palanzo, Huk Planas, Frank Trejo, Joe Breidenstein, & Dennis Nackord, if my memory serves me right. I was extremly nervous because I pretty much idolized all of these guys and didn't want to mess things up. It was a very fun time in my training and am glad there are people out there that bring the memories back. Peace to all posters, Dan


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## Flying Crane

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> How private can you be at an open test, at a commercial school a few feet from a video camera that you are directly facing? That's 3 counts against privacy right there. The problem ain't the tapes and videos. It's how people take criticism. It's no different than when it's done face to face. Some take it and roll with it some get offended because someone thought they were less than perfect.


 

I know, I know, and you've made some good points.  I think tho, that given this tape was made so long ago, at that time there was no thought that it would be made as widely available as Youtube can do it.  That trumps any other distribution of the tape that might have happened before.  It goes outside the circle of the organization to which Mr. Arsenault belongs, and is literally available for anyone in the world to look at.  I just think there is a courtesy and respect factor in making sure all parties are comfortable with that happening, before making the decision to do so.  That's just how I feel about it.

I know nowadays everything gets videoed, I mean my god, everyone has a camera or video camera on their cellphone so it can happen at a moment's notice.  So whatever you do now, even if you scratch your butt or pick your nose at the bus stop, someone can videotape it and post it on Youtube.  I find the fascination that everyone has with video to be a bit odd and perhaps overdone.  Maybe it's just the novelty of it all.  At any rate, I just feel there is a courtesy issue in posting video.  Some of you guys disagree, that's fine.  But that's how I feel about it and maybe sometimes it makes sense to stop and consider that for a moment before posting something.


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## Flying Crane

mrdankenpo said:


> I had no idea my posting a response would draw so much attention. Just to set the record straight concerning me: To Kenpojujitsu3, I am glad you posted the videos on the sites, they bring back alot of memories and I have gotten alot of laughs reading what the community thinks of them....


 
Hey fair enough by me.  Glad to have you on board here, and I am glad that you don't have hard feelings over the video.  But I think this is still a valid issue for discussion, something that we should perhaps keep in mind and consider when we might decide to post video.  So for my part, I'm glad it came up.


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## Flying Crane

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Then miffed you shall be when I get my hands on video of you LOL. My thought is this. When you get taped doing something and you don't have the tape you do not know what's going to happen with the tape. If you don't like it, don't get taped. Secondly this particular tape was mass produced as part of a marketing tape for that Kenpo organization. It was already available to the world over a decade ago. If you're that worried about people seeing you practice your art then do it in secrecy like they used to do. No spectators, No Cameras, No Camcorders, No Windows.....


 

well you will have to first find my secret training camp hidden in a cold dead volcano on a Pacific island, surrounded by sharks with friggin lazers on their friggin heads...:asian:

I know, you've got some good points, I just think the wishes of all the players ought to be considered, that's all.


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## Carol

My school has several videotapes of our trips to the Philippines and Indonesia.  As far as I know, none of them are on YouTube and I'd be horrified if they were.  It has nothing to do with criticism (I'm not even in the video), it has to do with what the purpose was of the taping.  The tape was NOT made to be a public broadcast.  It was made for us to enjoy as a school.  Sure, there was plenty that we did that was public.   But, you had to be in the Philppines to see it.  If you weren't....too bad.  The video was there for us.  

To me there is a big difference between someone making a videotape of a class or a test to someone videotaping a bunch of people and then several years later chopping up the video and putting it on the web without even letting them know.

Sure, lots of things are technologically possible.  I could perhaps take some rather interesting IM conversations or e-mail exchanges I've had with a couple of individuals and broadcast them on the web too.  But, I don't becuase I respect the people involved.   

I have nothing against the technology.  Heck, I work in telecommunications.  My very subsistence depends on people insisting on using technology to communicate with each other.  But, I do believe that there are polite and proper ways to establish such a communique.

In my opinion, the way Mr. Arsenault went about this was neither polite nor proper.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

mrdankenpo said:


> I was a young black belt at the time of this video, had about 5-10 minutes of practice with Arsenault before the demo,and had no idea what he was going to do, as seen in the video, none of the techniques were textbook.


 
This is key and I know how you feel.  That's why I understood the stone statue.  He was improvising on the fly and you had no idea what was coming you could either A) stay still and in one piece or B) move and get clocked with a blow that isn't written in the textbook.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Flying Crane said:


> *I know nowadays everything gets videoed, I mean my god, everyone has a camera or video camera on their cellphone so it can happen at a moment's notice. So whatever you do now, even if you scratch your butt or pick your nose at the bus stop, someone can videotape it and post it on Youtube.* I find the fascination that everyone has with video to be a bit odd and perhaps overdone. Maybe it's just the novelty of it all. At any rate, I just feel there is a courtesy issue in posting video. Some of you guys disagree, that's fine. But that's how I feel about it and maybe sometimes it makes sense to stop and consider that for a moment before posting something.


 
I was having this conversation on KN, Cameras are EVERYWHERE these days.  My thoughts are this.  Candid camera? yeah have courtesy as you call it because people didn't know they were being taped.  When the parties know full well they are being taped.  Be prepared for someone to actually see the tape.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Flying Crane said:


> well you will have to first find my secret training camp hidden in a cold dead volcano on a Pacific island, surrounded by sharks with friggin lazers on their friggin heads...:asian:
> 
> I know, you've got some good points, I just think the wishes of all the players ought to be considered, that's all.


 
I see you sent your ninjas to hunt me down for the tapes.  They almost caught me since the tape was weighing me down.  But I prepared for that possibility with a technique called "Preparation H" :asian:

And I'm with ya for the most part.  Just playing devil's advocate for a good discussion.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Carol Kaur said:


> In my opinion, the way Mr. Arsenault went about this was neither polite nor proper.


 
At the risk of sounding like a blunt *******. You don't know how Mr. Arsenault "went about this" at all. You are beyond uninformed in your opinion and WAY off base. Only I know how he "went about it" other than him as it was between me and him and I'll share the whole story for the FIRST time now. Be careful when you "shoot off" without all the facts (or ANY of the facts in this case), that's another way rumors get started besides all the videotape "controversy" and I won't stand for an innocent man's name to be trashed like that. He was beyond polite and proper. The "blame" lies with me if there is any blame, so throw it my way at someone who actually posts here :asian:

I posted a clip of Mr. Parker teaching at a seminar in November, 1990. One month before Mr. Parker passed. In the front row you can see a young Steve Arsenault as a 3rd degree learning from Mr. Parker. I noticed in the honors section of the youtube video that the video was hotlinked to Mr. Arsenault's webpage. I contacted Mr. Arsenault and told him that there were a number of other segments that I had from that seminar and other tapes with him on it doing kenpo. I asked him if he wanted me to make them available as well. He requested that I post as much of him as I could and tell him when I did so he could enbed them regardless of what era the footage from. So I did that as a service to him. Just as I posted all the video of Mr. Parker as a service to the kenpo community. And notice NO ONE EVER objected to those being posted. It was always "thanks for posting the vids of Mr. Parker keep it coming". Not "did you ask the guys getting laid out if it was ok to show this?" And some of the vids of Mr. Parker were home videos too, but since it's Mr. Parker no one objected right? This is going overboard, I probably need to just pull all of the clips other than my own. It'll cut down on all of this kind of stuff.


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## Touch Of Death

Carol Kaur said:


> In my opinion, the way Mr. Arsenault went about this was neither polite nor proper.


 Yeah, lets get him! :soapbox: Actually that was a bit harsh Carol.
Sean


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## Carol

Well as James said a couple pages back...er...

Toughen up, guys.  Being under the microscope is a good thing.   

*ducking for cover*

:redcaptur


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Carol Kaur said:


> Toughen up, guys. Being under the microscope is a good thing.
> 
> *ducking for cover*
> 
> :redcaptur


 
But you had the wrong person on the slide and in your sights.


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## Flying Crane

I think this is a very good topic for discussion, perhaps it really warrants a new thread.

Posting video on sites like Youtube is a very new thing.  Perhaps it may take us a little while to figure out the proper ettiquette and manners that should go along with it, like it did with the use of cellphones in public.  It happened to come up in this thread with the arrival of MRDANKENPO.  Prior to that, it didn't really come up as a potential issue.  Now our eyes have been opened.  Something to think about.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Flying Crane said:


> I think this is a very good topic for discussion, perhaps it really warrants a new thread.
> 
> Posting video on sites like Youtube is a very new thing. Perhaps it may take us a little while to figure out the proper ettiquette and manners that should go along with it, like it did with the use of cellphones in public. It happened to come up in this thread with the arrival of MRDANKENPO. Prior to that, it didn't really come up as a potential issue. Now our eyes have been opened. Something to think about.


 
Shall you do the honors of the new thread?


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## Flying Crane

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Shall you do the honors of the new thread?


 
sure.  coming soon to a theater near you...


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## mrdankenpo

Flying Crane said:


> I think this is a very good topic for discussion, perhaps it really warrants a new thread.
> 
> Posting video on sites like Youtube is a very new thing.  Perhaps it may take us a little while to figure out the proper ettiquette and manners that should go along with it, like it did with the use of cellphones in public.  It happened to come up in this thread with the arrival of MRDANKENPO.  Prior to that, it didn't really come up as a potential issue.  Now our eyes have been opened.  Something to think about.


This thread seems to have grown a second head. To kenpojujitsu3, Don't pull any video's off line on my account. I think that it is cool that the footage is out there and being shared with other enthusiasts. In my original post I was just trying to parry the hecklers with a response to my actions/reactions or lack thereof. I have had alot of fun with this thread, this is my first time on a site like this, I had no idea my post would cause such a stir.


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## MJS

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_

*Please, return to the original topic. For discussion on the pros/cons of posting Youtube videos, please see this thread.*

*-Mike Slosek*
*-MT Asst. Admin-*


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