# Kukkiwon  do we really need it?



## Markku P (Aug 15, 2011)

I have been thinking about this for some time now. Do we really need the Kukkiwon anymore? Just think about it. What is its purpose? What can a normal Taekwondo student get from it? Perhaps it would be better if we would have just one main organization like WTF and everything else would be subordinated to it. Let me explain what I mean. Most of us (instructors) have black belt tests for our students, then we file application forms for the black belts, we pay and send all the papers and photos to the Kukkiwon. After a couple of months we get our certificates.
Whats wrong with this picture?

They dont know anything about my students, what their technical level is or for how long they have trained in Taekwondo. They just send certificates and get money.

I personally feel that there is something wrong with this. What happens with all the money? Is our money helping the development of Taekwondo?

I dont think so

Also, the Kukkiwon has rules on how you should conduct a black belt test and what the minimum requirements are. But I know for a fact that in many cases they have not followed those requirements. They say that you have to know the forms and do some breaking, but I know many black belts who dont know any poomsae or havent done any breaking at all.

Now some might argue that its impossible to control the students technical level. Really? With modern technology we can do many things. We can send some videos freely via the Internet, send DVDs or some of the instructors from the Kukkiwon can do random tests.





Now you might, again, argue that it will take too much money and man power. Butwe are sending lot of money to Korea so they should be able todo something!

Even just random checking

I can take some examples from my home country Finland. There are quite many black belts and some high ranking black belts who didnt need to doany physical test for their Dan tests! (even high Dan tests) Their Instructor who lives in Korea just sent the papers to them! Then I hear them comments that our teacher knows our level or He knows what is best for us.

Well.. There is one small problem. The Kukkiwon rules clearly say that you have to do a PHYSICAL test for your Dan test(or at least it was mandatory at that time. I dont know what the rules say today because for some reason I cant get access to their web-site as I write this.)
OK, I just dont understand why we have to send so much money to an organization located in Korea, and if we are completely honest they are notdoing much for the development of Taekwondo. I know they arrange some seminars etc. But we still have to pay a lot of money and all that money that they are getting from all over the world should be used to do much more for Taekwondo.

My conclusion is that the Kukkiwon should really make some big changes and not be afraid to make some really radical developments. I know there are some really great masters and grandmasters there but the direction in which we are going is just destroying Taekwondo as a martial art.



Yours,

Markku P.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 15, 2011)

Personally, i like the concept of what the Kukkiwon does. But i do not believe the Kukkiwon needs to be more than an Organisation. Right now, its a glorious building. I see little need for such a thing, unless im missing the point. There needs to be SOMEONE setting the Standards, but...  Theres many sides to this, actually. Ill leave it at that, and allow people who function partly with the KKW to answer - This is more their debate


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## miguksaram (Aug 15, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I have been thinking about this for some time now. Do we really need the Kukkiwon anymore?


This is a topic that has been done to death.  Why rehash it again?



> Just think about it. What is its purpose? What can a normal Taekwondo student get from it? Perhaps it would be better if we would have just one main organization like WTF and everything else would be subordinated to it.


The KKW establishes the core curriculum of the style of TKD.  It helps provides a certification process for instructors  to expand their knowledge of the art itself.  WTF only provides a rules and regulations for the sport itself.  Seperate of the two is a good thing.  WTF at its core should only be focusing on the progression of the sport itself.  However, it seems more and more that WTF wants to over step its bounds in trying establish standards in forms.  



> Let me explain what I mean. Most of us (instructors) have black belt tests for our students, then we file application forms for the black belts, we pay and send all the papers and photos to the Kukkiwon. After a couple of months we get our certificates.
> What&#8217;s wrong with this picture?


If there is something wrong with the picture, get prettier students.   Seriously though what problem do you have with the process?  Some tech & vocational schools do the same thing.  They train students, give them their test and then send the paperwork off to a certification center to have the students certified.  Why not just have them do their own thing?  

They don&#8217;t know anything about my students, what their technical level is or for how long they have trained in Taekwondo. They just send certificates and get money.



> I personally feel that there is something wrong with this. What happens with all the money? Is our money helping the development of Taekwondo?
> 
> I don&#8217;t think so&#8230;


Why?



> Also, the Kukkiwon has rules on how you should conduct a black belt test and what the minimum requirements are. But I know for a fact that in many cases they have not followed those requirements. They say that you have to know the forms and do some breaking, but I know many black belts who don&#8217;t know any poomsae or haven&#8217;t done any breaking at all.
> 
> Now some might argue that it&#8217;s impossible to control the student&#8217;s technical level. Really? With modern technology we can do many things. We can send some videos freely via the Internet, send DVDs or some of the instructors from the Kukkiwon can do random tests.


Now you might, again, argue that it will take too much money and man power. But&#8230;we are sending lot of money to Korea so they should be able to do something![/quote]

Seriously?  Let's low ball a figure and say that within one week you,  the KKW, would receive 300,000 videos via snail mail, e-mail, skype,  etc...requesting review of testing.  How do propose to handle all of  this?  Keep in mind that this is not a one time a year thing, but to be  constantly bombarded with such items on a weekly basis.  Any server you  choose to use would most likely crash and you would have to higher a two  shift staff just to attempt to keep up in judging these things.  And  how many testings can you honestly sit through in one day without your  mind turning in slush?

Are you willing to pay for the KKW instructors to come over and do "random" testings? 

Can I ask you how much you pay for your KKW membership?  Oh wait...KKW doesn't have a membership.  How much do you pay for your WTF membership?

Also how much do you pay for your certifications?  If you pay KKW prices then you know as well as I that there is not much money to be made there.  One 1st Dan certification is roughly $50.00.  This gives you the cert, a card and a listing in the database.  This also provides for the mailing to get it back.  So again, let's low ball the estimate in putting this together.  You have the paper and the id card probably costs them $10.00 at most.  Then you have to higher someone to do data entry so lets say $.50 of fee goes to that (since you are looking at lot of these to be processed).  Finally to ship it back is around $10.00.  So now your "profit" is $50-20.50= 29.50.  So TKD will make a total profit of $29.50 per 1st dan.  Naturally I did not include other expenses such as utilities, other personnel, etc.

This also does not include such things as the World Hanmadang in which you are only require to pay for your trip to get to the place and I believe they foot the bill for your stay.



> Even just random checking&#8230;
> 
> I can take some examples from my home country Finland. There are quite many black belts and some high ranking black belts who didn&#8217;t need to do any physical test for their Dan tests! (even high Dan tests) Their Instructor who lives in Korea just sent the papers to them! Then I hear them comments that &#8220;our teacher knows our level&#8221; or &#8220;He knows what is best for us&#8221;.
> 
> Well.. There is one small problem. The Kukkiwon rules clearly say that you have to do a PHYSICAL test for your Dan test&#8230;(or at least it was mandatory at that time. I don&#8217;t know what the rules say today because for some reason I can&#8217;t get access to their web-site as I write this.)



Then that is the fault of the instructor, not the KKW.  Now if these people were to actually go to the KKW and test, they would find themselves in a world of hurt when they fail. 



> OK, I just don&#8217;t understand why we have to send so much money to an organization located in Korea, and if we are completely honest they are notdoing much for the development of Taekwondo. I know they arrange some seminars etc. But we still have to pay a lot of money and all that money that they are getting from all over the world should be used to do much more for Taekwondo.


The answer is simple.  If you are unhappy and feel that there is no recourse to satisfy your discontent, then leave.  Do not test your people under KKW TKD. Rip up your KKW certs since they obviously are meaningless to you and move on and do your own thing.  And no I'm not trying to be a smart *** here.  I am simply stating that if you are doing something that makes you unhappy, then stop doing it.  



> My conclusion is that the Kukkiwon should really make some big changes and not be afraid to make some really radical developments. I know there are some really great masters and grandmasters there but the direction in which we are going is just destroying Taekwondo as a martial art.


People destroy things.  Inanimate entities like the KKW do not.  The blame you are looking to place should be towards individuals.


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## Markku P (Aug 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> The answer is simple.  If you are unhappy and feel that there is no recourse to satisfy your discontent, then leave.  Do not test your people under KKW TKD. Rip up your KKW certs since they obviously are meaningless to you and move on and do your own thing.  And no I'm not trying to be a smart *** here.  I am simply stating that if you are doing something that makes you unhappy, then stop doing it.



Thank you for your post. I will make more comments little later but for this I can answer now. For using Kukkiwon Certificates I don't have any other choices. We are member of national federation and they only accept ITF or Kukkiwon certificates.  ( we have to be a member if we wish to get money from goverment or city )

/Markku P.


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## Markku P (Aug 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Are you willing to pay for the KKW instructors to come over and do "random" testings?



Actually I am ready to pay  if we can also arrange "mini seminar or something like that... In the past I have paid 1000-3000USD ( + traveling, hotels etc. )for instructors.

/Markku P.


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## Archtkd (Aug 15, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Thank you for your post. I will make more comments little later but for this I can answer now. For using Kukkiwon Certificates I don't have any other choices. We are member of national federation and they only accept ITF or Kukkiwon certificates.  ( we have to be a member if we wish to get money from goverment or city )
> 
> /Markku P.



Just curious: Why do you need money from the government or city to run your own dojang? In essence, are your country's taxpayer's being forced to support you? If so, why?


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## Markku P (Aug 15, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Just curious: Why do you need money from the government or city to run your own dojang? In essence, are your country's taxpayer's being forced to support you? If so, why?



I don't need money but I would be foolish to say No. We can get money for competitions, rents (50-80%), sometimes we can hire instructors as full or part part time. We can get some small money from each class we held. Downside is that our personal Tax rate is quite high..( but that I don't mind, we have free education and health care etc.)

Every sport can get money from government and the city. In the long run it will be cheaper because all the health benefits of training.

/Markku P.


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## Markku P (Aug 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Seriously?  Let's low ball a figure and say that within one week you,  the KKW, would receive 300,000 videos via snail mail, e-mail, skype,  etc...requesting review of testing.  How do propose to handle all of  this?  Keep in mind that this is not a one time a year thing, but to be  constantly bombarded with such items on a weekly basis.  Any server you  choose to use would most likely crash and you would have to higher a two  shift staff just to attempt to keep up in judging these things.  And  how many testings can you honestly sit through in one day without your  mind turning in slush?



I don't know how many people are working for Kukkiwon so I don't know what kind of manpower they have..but if they get 300 000 request in one week or month, then they should have enough money to hire people?  

I also mentioned that I don't know the answers and perhaps we should find it? Also, if you have rules and regulations, then you should have some way to control that people will follow those?

I am very curious how much money Kukkiwon is getting world wide? Why this is information is not public? I would like to see how many people are getting their Dan certificates via Kukkiwon per year?

By the way,( Any server problems then answer is Amazon S3..I think )

/Markku P.


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## MAist25 (Aug 15, 2011)

Nobody's forcing you to send your money to the Kukkiwon... If you don't want to then dont, it's pretty simple.


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## Markku P (Aug 15, 2011)

MAist25 said:


> Nobody's forcing you to send your money to the Kukkiwon... If you don't want to then dont, it's pretty simple.



It's not so simple..just read my previous answer. I am forced to pay to Kukkiwon and if I wish my students to attend certain international tournaments then they need Kukkiwon certificates. ( I have some students who are fighting in International tournaments )

/Markku P.


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## miguksaram (Aug 15, 2011)

Markku P said:


> It's not so simple..just read my previous answer. I am forced to pay to Kukkiwon and if I wish my students to attend certain international tournaments then they need Kukkiwon certificates. ( I have some students who are fighting in International tournaments )
> 
> /Markku P.



Why do you feel that putting everything under WTF would be better?  You are still sending your money to the same org.  The difference is the acronym being used.


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## Markku P (Aug 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Why do you feel that putting everything under WTF would be better?  You are still sending your money to the same org.  The difference is the acronym being used.



I think today WTF is more open and  more democratic than Kukkiwon. ( but I have to say WTF has been lately quite "unprofessional" )

/Markku P.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 16, 2011)

We broke away from the kukkiwon many years ago, for many reasons but mainly because there was just no real reason to be a member that the club could see. Since then the club has gone from strength to strength and now has thousands of members and is flourishing. Im not saying anyone should quit the kukkiwon but just that they are not the be all and end all, you can exist quite successfully without being involved in the kukkiwon. If your club wishes to compete at the olympics then its necessary otherwise I dont see any real advantage to being a member.


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## d1jinx (Aug 16, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Every sport can get money from government and the city. In the long run it will be cheaper because all the health benefits of training.
> 
> /Markku P.



interesting.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 16, 2011)

As I haven't posted on this thread yet, I thought I'd share my opinion.  Do we need Kukkiwon - short answer "no". Longer answer...

I have Kukkiwon certification and wouldn't think about giving my students anything different.  While the certificate is very much honour-based (the KKW trusts their high ranks to promote people to high ranks to promote people to lower ranks - all without having seen most of them), it's better than the alternative - no standard certification at all.

The educational opportunities of the Kukkiwon (FIC as well as other training sessions that can be attended by visitors) are outstanding.

I also like Kukkiwon certification as it's a way of donating money to support our art.  Sure I could donate money to any other cause, but Taekwondo is something I love and it's nice to be able to support in some small way and pay back for the joy and changes it's made in my life.

So, do we *need* it?  No.  But I wouldn't want to change or drop it...  I particularly wouldn't like to abolish it and move everything under the WTF as the WTF really does seem to have a very sport-based attitude rather than a martial art-based one (I'm not talking about what they're responsible for, but the way they act - WTF is for the good of recognition of the sport, KKW is for the good of the art/people in it).

As an aside, there was a rumour circulating a while ago that the KKW was considering changing the rules so only KKW certified instructors could recommend for promotion.  That would possibly be a good step in trying to ensure everyone is closer to the standards.  Personally I wouldn't like to see it happen just yet as I'm not a KKW certified instructor (yet) and have only just reached a rank where I can recommend people for KKW certification ;-)


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## d1jinx (Aug 16, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> ..................;-)



very good answer. I agree. and like Miguksaram said, this has been discussed before, but, it still comes up everynow and then even within the same individual. I know I have found myself asking myself "what for?". I know i could make my own certificates and pocket the profit instead of supporting the Korean GDP (dont be fooled, it is a gross domestic product of the country and a HUGE export to the world...)

But we have to remember as Instructors, it is OUR responsibilty to ensure the person we are promoting "meets" KKW standards. So the blame is not on the KKW. the instructors who promote also represent the KKW and are to blame if not following the standards.

Eliminating the KKW would only move us (taekwondo) closer into a SPORT ONLY and no longer help standardize what is taught. Instead we would all be testing based off of competition skill and experience if we even tested at all. 

I think the real question is: when taekwondo looses Olympic status, will we need the WTF anymore?


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## Markku P (Aug 16, 2011)

I personally don't have anything against Kukkiwon but I hope they can be more open.  How they select members of board, statistics, finance etc. 
Because they are getting lot of money all over the world. I also feel we have to continue with our conversations (about Kukkiwon) for sake of openness.
( Sorry all my mistakes with my English, normally I ask my wife to check everything.. )

/Markku P.

PS: I still feel it's wrong to demand that you need to have Kukkiwon certificates WTF sanctioned competitions.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 16, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I personally don't have anything against Kukkiwon but I hope they can be more open.  How they select members of board, statistics, finance etc.
> Because they are getting lot of money all over the world. I also feel we have to continue with our conversations (about Kukkiwon) for sake of openness.
> ( Sorry all my mistakes with my English, normally I ask my wife to check everything.. )
> 
> ...


I think it is absolutely ridiculous that someone needs a kukkiwon cert to compete. As long as someone shows up to the event and competes within the ruleset, then why should they need a kukkiwon cert? I couldnt care less if they've never done a days tkd training in their life, provided they play by the rules they should be allowed to compete. I am competing in a marathon in a couple of months and I dont need certification from a "marathon running org" to be allowed to compete. Me thinks money plays a part here.


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## d1jinx (Aug 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think it is absolutely ridiculous that someone needs a kukkiwon cert to compete. As long as someone shows up to the event and competes within the ruleset, then why should they need a kukkiwon cert? I couldnt care less if they've never done a days tkd training in their life, provided they play by the rules they should be allowed to compete. Me thinks money plays a part here.



and they can.  at any open or local event.

however to compete at a WTF Sanctioned event, 1 must have a KKW.  just imagine if every homemade basketball team showed up at March madness, without being a sanctioned College team.  How can 1 enforce a ruleset if there is no "certified standard" to play by.  so the AND1 boys and city streetball crews would play against the TOP college teams with no basis for rules or consequences.


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## Markku P (Aug 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think it is absolutely ridiculous that someone needs a kukkiwon cert to compete. As long as someone shows up to the event and competes within the ruleset, then why should they need a kukkiwon cert?



Like most people know Dr. Un Young Kim was the President of Both the Kukkiwon and WTF at same time, perhaps it had something to do with it? :angel:
When I spoke people who are involved a national sport federation, they felt it was really weird that people have to pay money to separate organization (aka Kukkiwon Dan certificate) to be able to compete..

/Markku P.


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## Markku P (Aug 16, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> I think the real question is: when taekwondo looses Olympic status, will we need the WTF anymore?



The most European countries aka federations will need an organization like WTF ( non-profit organization ) to be able to be a member a national sport federations. (this also means they will get money from them. I assume that USA has same kind of system.)

/Markku P.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 16, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> and they can.  at any open or local event.
> 
> however to compete at a WTF Sanctioned event, 1 must have a KKW.  just imagine if every homemade basketball team showed up at March madness, without being a sanctioned College team.  How can 1 enforce a ruleset if there is no "certified standard" to play by.  so the AND1 boys and city streetball crews would play against the TOP college teams with no basis for rules or consequences.


I dont really understand the basketball analogy as Im australian and there is little to no interest in basketball here. But, as long as they played by the rules I dont see a problem. I dont have a problem with having a governing body to make rules for competition, but as long as the rules are adhered to I couldnt care less who competes. I never said there would be "no certified standard to play by", I fully believe you need one set of rules that all competitors adhere to, but there are literally thousands and thousands of tkdists all over the world who spar using the WTF ruleset but belong to clubs that are not kukkiwon affiliated. I know you can compete at certain events without kukkiwon certification but most major events would require the cert I imagine. I know when I tell people (outside of the tkd world) that you need to be a kukkiwon member to compete at the olympics they find that concept very "odd".


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

Markku P said:


> PS: I still feel it's wrong to demand that you need to have Kukkiwon certificates WTF sanctioned competitions.



The funny thing is that I think this is one area where the WTF will split further from the Kukkiwon in future.  

Currently (as I understand it) you need a Kukkiwon 1st Dan or above and a WTF Athlete Licence.  It's not a big push in the future for the WTF to say "actually, we're just a sport body, as long as they have an athlete licence that's all they need".


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

Markku P said:


> When I spoke people who are involved a national sport federation, they felt it was really weird that people have to pay money to separate organization (aka Kukkiwon Dan certificate) to be able to compete..



Let's not blow it out of proportion though - it's not an annual fee that you have to pay to the Kukkiwon, it's $70 at the start of your competition career.  Consider it like the cost of buying a dobok, hogu, head guard, etc, etc - it's a one-off investment that you have to pay to compete.  If it helps you, a proportion of that money goes to the WTF anyway (so just consider it being paid the other way round - you pay the WTF for the dan certificate and they pass a proportion on to the Kukkiwon ;-) ).


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think it is absolutely ridiculous that someone needs a kukkiwon cert to compete. As long as someone shows up to the event and competes within the ruleset, then why should they need a kukkiwon cert? I couldnt care less if they've never done a days tkd training in their life, provided they play by the rules they should be allowed to compete.


 
I think it's slightly different because it's a combat sport with a restrictive rule set.  You could get a guy off the street who in the heat of the moment starts punching in the face.  Sure, they'd be penalised, but they still shouldn't be doing it (more than an odd accident).  I would say the principle is by the time they get to KKW 1st Dan then they should be well trained in not punching in the face during sparring/competition.

What I mean is they should be safer for having a known history of training in that style, rather than a just "memorise these rules and don't break them, now go fight!".



ralphmcpherson said:


> I am competing in a marathon in a couple of months and I dont need certification from a "marathon running org" to be allowed to compete. Me thinks money plays a part here.



The difference is that marathon running isn't a contact/combat sport.  The rules are to run from here to there as fast as you can and don't take drugs ;-)

For comparison, Judo requires an IJF 1st Dan to compete in the olympics.  Boxing requires an AIBA licence as far as I remember.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I know when I tell people (outside of the tkd world) that you need to be a kukkiwon member to compete at the olympics they find that concept very "odd".



The funny thing is on occasions when I've discussed that you need a World Taekwondo Headquarters (it helps to use the English words rather than Korean) black belt certificate to compete internationally, the most common response is "that's good, saves you getting your head kicked off by some black belt ninja-type guy".  Most people think it's a good thing that you need an international certificate of competency.

Of course, they aren't aware that a KKW 1st Dan might mean nothing more than a bit of paper given by an instructor who doesn't care about quality (and may never have met you) ;-)


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> The funny thing is on occasions when I've discussed that you need a World Taekwondo Headquarters (it helps to use the English words rather than Korean) black belt certificate to compete internationally, the most common response is "that's good, saves you getting your head kicked off by some black belt ninja-type guy".  Most people think it's a good thing that you need an international certificate of competency.
> 
> Of course, they aren't aware that a KKW 1st Dan might mean nothing more than a bit of paper given by an instructor who doesn't care about quality (and may never have met you) ;-)


True, but what about the thousands of quality black belts world wide who cant compete due to the fact their club is not affiliated with the kukkiwon? It seems the couple of people who would show up and "not know the rules well enough and end up punching someone in the face" would pale in comparison to the thousands and thousands of good quality black belts world wide who have to miss out. Personally, I have no interest in competing so I dont really care but it did seem odd to me that years ago when my club would send competitors to "open" tournaments we had guys who would wipe the floor with tkdists who were well and truly in contention for olympic trials. Dont get me wrong, we also had some of our guys get their asses kicked. It wasnt just our club either, there were some great tkdists at these tournments who were "ineligible" which is a great shame because at something like the olympics you want to see the best vs the best, not just the best of what is available.  It just seemed odd that they were ineligable due to not having a piece of cardboard, despite still being a tkd black belt. It just seems odd to me.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> It just seemed odd that they were ineligable due to not having a piece of cardboard, despite still being a tkd black belt. It just seems odd to me.



It seems odd to me that you had good competitors who were beating olympic trial level athletes, but "you" (they, whatever) let a $70 certificate stand in their way.  I'm sure you could have found someone to promote them.

If you considered it an entrance fee to the next level of competition, rather than either giving money to Korea or paying for cardboard, who knows where they could have reached.


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## d1jinx (Aug 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> It seems odd to me that you had good competitors who were beating olympic trial level athletes, but "you" (they, whatever) let a $70 certificate stand in their way. I'm sure you could have found someone to promote them.
> 
> If you considered it an entrance fee to the next level of competition, rather than either giving money to Korea or paying for cardboard, who knows where they could have reached.



funny thing is, no one said you had to get anything Higher than a 1st Dan KKW.  thats ALL thats required!!!


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> funny thing is, no one said you had to get anything Higher than a 1st Dan KKW.  thats ALL thats required!!!



Exactly, it's a one-off $70 entrance fee to being an Olympic level athlete. Really that big a deal?  I think not.


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## d1jinx (Aug 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Exactly, it's a one-off $70 entrance fee to being an Olympic level athlete. Really that big a deal? I think not.



unless you can't get it!!!! :angel:


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## Markku P (Aug 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Exactly, it's a one-off $70 entrance fee to being an Olympic level athlete. Really that big a deal?  I think not.



It's quite a big deal when there is thousands of people who will pay 70-500USD every year to Korea and we don't really know what happens all the money.

/Markku P.

/markku P.


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## Markku P (Aug 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> This is a topic that has been done to death.  Why rehash it again?
> 
> 
> 
> Also how much do you pay for your certifications?  If you pay KKW prices then you know as well as I that there is not much money to be made there.  One 1st Dan certification is roughly $50.00.  This gives you the cert, a card and a listing in the database.  This also provides for the mailing to get it back.  So again, let's low ball the estimate in putting this together.  You have the paper and the id card probably costs them $10.00 at most.  Then you have to higher someone to do data entry so lets say $.50 of fee goes to that (since you are looking at lot of these to be processed).  Finally to ship it back is around $10.00.  So now your "profit" is $50-20.50= 29.50.  So TKD will make a total profit of $29.50 per 1st dan.  Naturally I did not include other expenses such as utilities, other personnel, etc.



These are the numbers I don't believe. The cost of printing etc. is around 0.1-1USD ( and cost of mailing of course depends where they will send it.) I ..and price of 1 dan should be 70USD (?)


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## miguksaram (Aug 17, 2011)

Markku P said:


> These are the numbers I don't believe. The cost of printing etc. is around 0.1-1USD ( and cost of mailing of course depends where they will send it.) I ..and price of 1 dan should be 70USD (?)


I am taking into account the cost of paper to print the cert as well as the material to print out the id's.  Currently they are using plastic before it was cardboard type paper that was laminated.  So let us lower it to $5.00 you are still looking at $34.50 profit.  As for the mailing, you are right that it will depend on where you send it, I would guesstimate the average is $10.00 for sending anything out of country, so I will still stick to that pricing.  Again, this does not include adding any other outside fees such as other staff members, rent, maintenance, etc.  

However, I have a question for you.  What organization do you know of that does all that you are expecting KKW to do?  How do you think WTF will be different than KKW?

Does anyone know if you can compete at an international level at Judo tournaments without being part of the Kodokan or a JKA tournament without being a member of the JKA?  Just curious.


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## Markku P (Aug 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Does anyone know if you can compete at an international level at Judo tournaments without being part of the Kodokan or a JKA tournament without being a member of the JKA?  Just curious.



with Judo you don't need to be Kodokan Black belt. The national federations can do their own black belt tests and you don't need Kodokan certificates.

/Markku P.


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## Markku P (Aug 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> However, I have a question for you.  What organization do you know of that does all that you are expecting KKW to do?  How do you think WTF will be different than KKW?



I think the national federations can provide pretty much same as Kukkiwon does, most countries have many experienced grandmasters, federations can hire instructors elsewhere, if they wish for it and often they can get funding for that. 

/Markku P.


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## Markku P (Aug 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> How do you think WTF will be different than KKW?



I think WTF is more accountable, people are elected in their positions and WTF today is much more democratic. It would be very easy establish some kind of "tradtional Taekwondo section or committee". 

All this discussion..but no one hasn't answered how much money Kukkiwon generates per year or how many Dan certificates they issue per year? Am I only one who is curious?

/Markku P.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

Markku P said:


> with Judo you don't need to be Kodokan Black belt. The national federations can do their own black belt tests and you don't need Kodokan certificates.



To compete in the Olympics in Judo you need to be an IJF 1st Dan or above.
http://www.fuzilogik.com/Sports-Library/Judo/Judo-Olympic-Qualifying.html

If we consider that the WTF doesn't issue Dan certificates (they entrust that to the Kukkiwon) the situation is the same.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

Markku P said:


> It's quite a big deal when there is thousands of people who will pay 70-500USD every year to Korea and we don't really know what happens all the money.



A proportion of it goes to the WTF.  A proportion goes to the MNA (or recommender if they have enough points under the KOMS/KMS system).

Remember though, this wasn't around how much the Kukkiwon earns but that it was considered odd to require it to compete in the Olympics.  Then it becomes a one-off payment per athlete, not an annual fee.


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## Markku P (Aug 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> To compete in the Olympics in Judo you need to be an IJF 1st Dan or above.
> http://www.fuzilogik.com/Sports-Library/Judo/Judo-Olympic-Qualifying.html
> 
> If we consider that the WTF doesn't issue Dan certificates (they entrust that to the Kukkiwon) the situation is the same.



But IJF recognizes black belt certificates from National federations..

/Markku P.


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## terryl965 (Aug 17, 2011)

The KKW processed nearly 230,000 black belt application last year at $70.00 a piece they would have made $16,100,000. That does not includes seconds and up, so yes the KKW is making money and it is supporting the South Korean government most likely. I guess I do not understand why does this matter and what point are you trying o make?


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## Markku P (Aug 17, 2011)

This is from International Judo federation's web-site. Why can't Taekwondo follow same kind of system?

/Markku P.

________________________________________________________________________________

24.1 Official recognition of grades

The IJF officially recognizes only those grades and dan ranks which are awarded by the Member National Federations to their own members, to the exclusion of all others.

A National Federation may not award a grade and/or a dan rank to a member of another Member National Federation without the written agreement of that Federation. Any grade or dan rank awarded without this agreement will not be validated by the IJF.
Each Member National Federation is in charge of representing the IJF for the purpose of ensuring compliance with International regulations on grades and dan ranks throughout its national territory.

24.2 Grade diplomas
IJF grades and dan ranks shall be awarded by the President of the Continental Union where the student originates from.

24.3 Amount of Fees
The amount of fees paid for awarding of grade and dan diplomas and for ID Cards shall be set by the EC.

24.4 Application procedure
The awarding of IJF grades and dan ranks shall be performed according to the procedure validated by the EC.
From the 1st to the 6th Dan, ranks shall be awarded under the responsibility of Member National Federations.
The 7th Dan shall be awarded upon the proposal of Member National Federations by the Executive Committees of the Continental Unions, after the opinion of the Continental Grade and Dan Rank Director is given.

As of the 8th Dan, Ranks shall be awarded by the EC upon the proposal of Member National Federations and after the opinion of the Continental Unions has been given, as well as the opinion of the Grade and Dan Rank Commission of the IJF.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 17, 2011)

I haven't hid my feelings on the KKW (and other orgs), so no need to rehash it.  I will say that the price they charge for a first Dan is extremely high.  The paper costs around a buck.  I know this because I can and have gotten the same type of paper for that price, even larger certs.  But let's be generous and triple it to $3 and then let's really go overboard and say another $3 for data entry and $10 shipping.  Now add another $3 for the I.D. card (which it isn't as I've done it for pennies).  So that's $19 for a piece of paper and an I.D. for which they charge $70.  That is quite a profit and doesn't take into account what a school might charge for themselves on top of that.

But okay, that's all fine and some may wish to pay that.  So here's the question, why charge more for the second Dan?  And the third and so forth?  Does the paper the second is printed on cost more?  And the paper the third is printed on even more than the second?  Why not charge less and less to say thank you for your loyalty to the art and the organization?  That's a rhetorical question, I fully understand why they do what they do.


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## miguksaram (Aug 18, 2011)

Markku said:
			
		

> It's quite a big deal when there is thousands of people who will pay  70-500USD every year to Korea and we don't really know what happens all  the money.


Ok, as this thread is just going to end up like the other several threads that have been written about the same topic let's just cut to the chase.  The KKW is an government organization and business which certifies you in the art of Taekwondo.  If you wish to be certified, it will cost you 'X' amount of money.  What they do with that money, bottom line, is really none of our business.  If you go to a vocational school and get certified in HVAC do you sit there and question the board of directors what they are doing with your money?  Who cares.  Keep in mind you are one individual sending in $70 bucks for a piece of  paper.  While I'm sure they appreciate your loyalty to the art, I doubt  they are going to bend over backwards to accommodate your every whim  because of it.  If you don't want the cert, then don't get it.

From the situation you described of getting government money for your school, as long as you are certified, it sounds to me like a "wanting your cake and eating it too scenario".  You want this money, as I'm sure it helps you financially, but you don't want to spend that money to keep yourself certified through KKW. So either the government is not giving you enough to substantiate your overall cost of being affiliated with the KKW, which begs the question of why bother at all? Or you just want more money for yourself.  

As for the argument of bring it under the WTF, people forget that the WTF while a separate entity, is part of the KKW.  The only thing they do is handle sports.  They do nothing to help progress the art itself.  That is what KKW does.  So I am just failing to see what answers you are really looking for in all of this.



			
				KSD said:
			
		

> But okay, that's all fine and some may wish to pay that.  So here's the  question, why charge more for the second Dan?  And the third and so  forth?  Does the paper the second is printed on cost more?


I know you said this was rhetorical but if you follow your line of logic, a master's degree and doctrine's degree in education should cost me the same amount as my bachelor's degree.  So why are they more expensive?  Shouldn't I be rewarded for being loyal to the subject?


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## d1jinx (Aug 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> ....



*+1


*why does everyone think everything should be free or handouts or "_AT COST_"????  once again, dont like it, DONT PARTICIPATE!  If YOUR country requires it then TAKE IT UP WITH THEM to create thier OWN National org and recycle the money within your country.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I know you said this was rhetorical but if you follow your line of logic, a master's degree and doctrine's degree in education should cost me the same amount as my bachelor's degree. So why are they more expensive? Shouldn't I be rewarded for being loyal to the subject?



A bit apples and oranged don't you think?  But if you insist, yes they are too expensive also.  Bottom line is there really exists no valid reason for the sliding scale other than they get to make even more money off someone elses hard work who is now hooked.

And I've asked this before, with no response so I'll toss it out there again;  do the kids in Korea that get the BB's in a year or so get charged the same amount of money as the kids in America?  Canada?  Europe?


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## miguksaram (Aug 18, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> A bit apples and oranged don't you think?  But if you insist, yes they are too expensive also.  Bottom line is there really exists no valid reason for the sliding scale other than they get to make even more money off someone elses hard work who is now hooked.
> 
> And I've asked this before, with no response so I'll toss it out there again;  do the kids in Korea that get the BB's in a year or so get charged the same amount of money as the kids in America?  Canada?  Europe?


Why apples and oranges?  I'm doing all the work, research and studying.  The teachers are just teaching me what I need to know for the next level.  How is that different than learning the next level of martial arts?  

As to your question regarding kids in Korea, the KKW charges the same basic price for the certification.  What the instructors charge I have no idea.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Why apples and oranges?



Because there is a difference between a Masters or PH.D. degree earned at a University and a KKW cert that can be bought at a 'special test' near you without having to show up.  

And your saying that a Korean child getting their KKW cert will pay $90 USD?  Hmm, are you sure about that?


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## Master Dan (Aug 18, 2011)

The direction we are going which in your opinion is negative started the day the art form was commercialized to feed the Olympics with global domination/expansion as the focus. No organization past a certain size and dollar amounts does not have some coruption or waste to it. However what will you replace it with. The money goes to support many different things on many levels and cultural services. There are many quality people attached to it that are a pleasure to even be in the same room with. It always seems the younger generations want to question the validity of the older generations?

Your first concern should be with your training how good you train your students and thier lives. But in the opinion corner I quote my life long master or the opinions of our betters that Martial art is like a big Ocean and you are in a small pond yes you may be a big fish in the little pond but when you swim out into the big ocean you are not so big so being part of an organization like KKW life long loyal doing the best you can for yourself and your students has value far beyond dollars? what other people do overcharging not training bad training you cannot control all you can do is your best for lack of anything to compare it to KKW is still the best unless you or your students never intend to leave the pond


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 18, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> The direction we are going which in your opinion is negative started the day the art form was commercialized to feed the Olympics with global domination/expansion as the focus. No organization past a certain size and dollar amounts does not have some coruption or waste to it.



I'm glad to see that someone will actually state it as such.



> However what will you replace it with.



Why replace it with anything?  How about simply restore the instructor/student relationship?  Why the need to go beyond the person that actually trained you in the first place?  Worked pretty well in the past and produced many quality people.  



> It always seems the younger generations want to question the validity of the older generations?



Actually, I'd be part of the older generation.  But in defense of the younger generation, if they see something wrong then I can't fault them for stating it.  I've seen lots of 'older' generation people look the other way so their next promotion wasn't in jeopardy.  Doesn't that speak of integrity?  



> But in the opinion corner I quote my life long master or the opinions of our betters that Martial art is like a big Ocean and you are in a small pond yes you may be a big fish in the little pond but when you swim out into the big ocean you are not so big so being part of an organization like KKW life long loyal doing the best you can for yourself and your students has value far beyond dollars? what other people do overcharging not training bad training you cannot control all you can do is your best for lack of anything to compare it to KKW is still the best unless you or your students never intend to leave the pond



That's all well and good I suppose.  But many don't look at the KKW as the big ocean or the best to be had.  Particularly those involved in the martial side of the martial arts.  They see it quite differently.  Some chose to simply voice the obvious.  That isn't disrespectful.  That isn't dishonoring.  That is candid observation.  

YMMV


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## Markku P (Aug 18, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> The KKW processed nearly 230,000 black belt application last year at $70.00 a piece they would have made $16,100,000. That does not includes seconds and up, so yes the KKW is making money and it is supporting the South Korean government most likely. I guess I do not understand why does this matter and what point are you trying o make?



Just curious where did you got this information? I just feel that everything should be open and clear. Those who are a members of WTF and still have to use Kukkiwon certificates should know where money is going..

/Markku P.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 18, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Just curious where did you got this information? I just feel that everything should be open and clear. Those who are a members of WTF and still have to use Kukkiwon certificates should know where money is going..
> 
> /Markku P.



This sounds like a very reasonable request.  Does the KKW provide this information?  Who is getting paid what, what events were sponsered and what the bill was etc.


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## miguksaram (Aug 18, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm glad to see that someone will actually state it as such.


Yes, you agree with him but did you ever stop to think that if the pioneers did not place the goal of putting TKD in the Olympics there would have never been motivation for the mass exodus of instructors to go around the world and teach it.  So while you may state that "sport" ruined TKD, it is the most likely the reason you even had a chance to study it in the first place.  Unless of course you instructor happen to come here simply because he wanted to teach karate in the US instead of Korea.



> Why replace it with anything?  How about simply restore the instructor/student relationship?  Why the need to go beyond the person that actually trained you in the first place?  Worked pretty well in the past and produced many quality people.


Also produced a lot of frauds too.  John C. Kim and Chung Moo Quan comes to mind.  Why the need for any certifications for things like CNA or CPA?  Why not just be happy that your accounting teacher gave you an 'A' on your test?



> Actually, I'd be part of the older generation.  But in defense of the younger generation, if they see something wrong then I can't fault them for stating it.  I've seen lots of 'older' generation people look the other way so their next promotion wasn't in jeopardy.  Doesn't that speak of integrity?


While agree to a point there is specific way of dealing with it.  Some younger generation people fail to approach things with tact and respect.  They feel they are owed an answer or feel that perhaps they are right without truly understanding why they are doing something.


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## miguksaram (Aug 18, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Just curious where did you got this information? I just feel that everything should be open and clear. Those who are a members of WTF and still have to use Kukkiwon certificates should know where money is going..
> 
> /Markku P.



Again, why do you feel you are entitled to that information?  Outside of getting your certificates you have no financial input?  Are you a shareholder?  Did you make a charitable donation to them?  



			
				KSD said:
			
		

> This sounds like a very reasonable request.  Does the KKW provide this  information?  Who is getting paid what, what events were sponsered and  what the bill was etc.


So you wouldn't mind your job posting how much money you make for everyone to see?  This is not a publicly owned company, so why do people feel they are entitled to look into their books?


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## Markku P (Aug 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> From the situation you described of getting government money for your school, as long as you are certified, it sounds to me like a "wanting your cake and eating it too scenario".  You want this money, as I'm sure it helps you financially, but you don't want to spend that money to keep yourself certified through KKW. So either the government is not giving you enough to substantiate your overall cost of being affiliated with the KKW, which begs the question of why bother at all? Or you just want more money for yourself.



First of all, the money what we are getting right now from goverment is very minimum..But I don't like that fact that we are forced to use Kukkiwon certificates and NO we don't have a choice if I like to get some of my students to competitions ( poomse or sparring ).I can teach what ever I like and I don't need to teach poomsae etc and I still can get Kukkiwon certificates. ( I teach poomsae ).

I don't know how things are In USA, perhaps many of you are happy to send money to Korea and don't care what happens after that. In Europe some countries stopped issue Kukkiwon certificates for normal students and gave people a choice to get their own certificates or Kukkiwon. I personally feel that Kukkiwon and WTF should be totally separate and WTF should issue their own certificates.

Yours,

Markku P.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> So while you may state that "sport" ruined TKD, it is the most likely the reason you even had a chance to study it in the first place.



Actually the type of TKD I studied was non-sport.  Often referred to as 'old school' TKD.  



> Unless of course you instructor happen to come here simply because he wanted to teach karate in the US instead of Korea.



Actually, he was born here.  His instructor came to this country to make a buck.  But fortunately his instructor's instructor loved to teach and put that first and foremost.  This filtered down to my instructor.



> Why the need for any certifications for things like CNA or CPA? Why not just be happy that your accounting teacher gave you an 'A' on your test?



Once again, you're comparing apples and oranges.  MBA's, Ph.D.'s, CNA's, CPA's etc are professional ratings.  There are industry standards (that don't usually flex and bend on a whim).  Martial arts, while having been commercialized are not professional ratings.  I find it very hard to believe you're comparing a KKW cert to a professional degree or rating.  I really am Jeremy.  Seriously.



> Some younger generation people fail to approach things with tact and respect. They feel they are owed an answer or feel that perhaps they are right without truly understanding why they are doing something.



And who are these people?  And yes, they are owed an answer.  If they're being asked to put in long hard hours of dedicated training AND fork over hard earned cash then they are entitled to reasonable answers.  This isn't a Kung Fu episode.  And the days are gone thankfully of 'don't question the master'.  A good instructor invites questions and should in fact encourage them.  Questions lead to understanding and understanding leads to a better student.  The only reason a 'master' wouldn't invite questions is if he doesnt' know the answer and has too much pride to say as much.


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## Markku P (Aug 18, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> why does everyone think everything should be free or handouts or "_AT COST_"????  once again, dont like it, DONT PARTICIPATE!  If YOUR country requires it then TAKE IT UP WITH THEM to create thier OWN National org and recycle the money within your country.



I don't think anyone has asked free certificates, actually I think Kukkiwon fees are quite cheap. I just would like to have more information.

-how much money Kukiwon is generating annually?
-how many people are getting their certificates via Kukkiwon every year?
-how is kukkiwon organized?  
-how people are selected to work with Kukkiwon?

Comment about that we should create our own national organization..perhaps you don't know how much work it will take and how long? ..and it won't make any sense..

/Markku P.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Again, why do you feel you are entitled to that information? Outside of getting your certificates you have no financial input? Are you a shareholder? Did you make a charitable donation to them?



Sounds like you're desparately trying to defend them and their past actions (some of which were illegal).  He has a right to ask where his money is going.



> So you wouldn't mind your job posting how much money you make for everyone to see? This is not a publicly owned company, so why do people feel they are entitled to look into their books?



My job is listed and a public record.  I don't mind at all.  

What are they trying to hide Jeremy?


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## Markku P (Aug 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> As for the argument of bring it under the WTF, people forget that the WTF while a separate entity, is part of the KKW.



I don't mean to be disrespectful but I don't this is true. I don't see anything about this in the WTF rules and I have faint memory that Olympic rules won't allow it.


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## miguksaram (Aug 18, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Sounds like you're desperately trying to defend them and their past actions (some of which were illegal).  He has a right to ask where his money is going.



He already knows where it is going...he paid for a certificate. Is he paying a membership to be in the KKW? No...is he a board member or a stock holder of KKW?  No.  Is he a Korean citizen?  No.  (I say this because it is a government entity now).  He has not "right" to know anything about what happens to that money after it passes his hand.  This is just common sense.  I don't by an apple from a farmer and then tell him I have the right to know where he is going to spend that money.



			
				KSD said:
			
		

> My job is listed and a public record.  I don't mind at all.


Well there you go once again you are an exception to the rule.  For most people would not like to have that information posted.



> What are they trying to hide Jeremy?


Well if I told you that I would lose my cool secret agent status that you all love me for.


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## Markku P (Aug 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Again, why do you feel you are entitled to that information?  Outside of getting your certificates you have no financial input?  Are you a shareholder?  Did you make a charitable donation to them?
> 
> 
> So you wouldn't mind your job posting how much money you make for everyone to see?  This is not a publicly owned company, so why do people feel they are entitled to look into their books?



Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)
Why so secretive? If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.

/Markku P.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 18, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)
> Why so secretive? If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.
> 
> /Markku P.



I don't know about you Mark, but I keep seeing the same few diligently trying to defend the KKW and everything Korean.  And with the same ole party lines;

They're your seniors so respect them without question...and don't ask any.
It's their organization and their country and they can do what they want.
It's none of your business.
They would tell you, but its part of your journey in the arts.
And I think any organization that has had the illegal issues that they've had in the past would go out of their way to answer exactly the kinds of questions you've raised.


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## Markku P (Aug 18, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't know about you Mark, but I keep seeing the same few diligently trying to defend the KKW and everything Korean.  And with the same ole party lines;
> 
> They're your seniors so respect them without question...and don't ask any.
> It's their organization and their country and they can do what they want.
> ...



Yes, I have seen this too often and so many countries. Exact same arguments..and if you dare make questions..!

/Markku P.


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## troubleenuf (Aug 18, 2011)

And if the Kukkiwon disappeared of the face of the earth tomorrow would it really matter?  Nope life would go on and in 99% of the gyms nothing would change.  I think that more than says everything right there.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 18, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> And if the Kukkiwon disappeared of the face of the earth tomorrow would it really matter?  Nope life would go on and in 99% of the gyms nothing would change.  I think that more than says everything right there.


Its an interesting subject really. We dont need the Kukkiwon, i think thats clear. But is it so bad that it exists? The Kukkiwon is kind of what Thailand is to Muay Thai. It is neither its Headquarters nor its Manager, but it serves like an Epicenter. Perhaps the Kukkiwon shouldnt be as much of a Commercial Operation, but we cant really put it down too hard for existing.

If it didnt exist, nothing would change, except then youd all have to call yourself WTF TKD Practitioners 
(http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?97706-Enlighten-Me... incase you dont get what i mean)


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## Archtkd (Aug 18, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I don't need money but I would be foolish to say No. We can get money for competitions, rents (50-80%), sometimes we can hire instructors as full or part part time. We can get some small money from each class we held. Downside is that our personal Tax rate is quite high..( but that I don't mind, we have free education and health care etc.)
> 
> Every sport can get money from government and the city. In the long run it will be cheaper because all the health benefits of training.
> 
> /Markku P.



Your reply sir shows we live in two very different worlds. The government pays 50 to 80 percent of your rent? The government pays for your healthcare and education?  

Here in St. Louis, if you live in the suburbs, annual commercial rent runs $18 to $25 per square foot net net net (triple net) in strip malls, where many martial arts schools are located. Triple net means that in addition to the base rent, a dojang owner has to pay additional fees for parking space, property management, snow clean-up, garbage collection, etc. The cost of utilities, liability insurance, business insurance and health insurance is not included in those figures. Do the math for a base rent of dojang that is only 3,000 square feet and you get the picture. Oh, initial build-out (improvements) for the space might cost anywhere from $20,000 to $50,000, paid for  by the dojang owner upfront.  

I can go on, but in this country dojang owners are on their own, as I mentioned in another post. People make all this silly noise about  Kukkiwon this, WTF  that, ITF there, etc. but for the most part those organizations -- and independent ones some people are creating in their heads -- don't mean much. Belonging to an association, choosing to affiliate with the Kukkiwon, WTF, etc are often luxuries that many Taekwondo teachers enjoy or should enjoy when they've figured out how to keep their dojang doors open and created a sustainable membership body that can afford to pay for and enjoy that luxury. That goes for competition, especially national and international competition.


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## miguksaram (Aug 19, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)
> Why so secretive? If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.
> 
> /Markku P.



They are no longer a private corporation.  They are now a government company.  Yes, they did have some problems, which they have been punished for, it is also one of the things that lead up to the government takeover of KKW.  

Just out of curiosity, have you ever called to talk to someone or call to get an appointment to ask these questions?


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## miguksaram (Aug 19, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't know about you Mark, but I keep seeing the same few diligently trying to defend the KKW and everything Korean.  And with the same ole party lines;
> 
> They're your seniors so respect them without question...and don't ask any.
> It's their organization and their country and they can do what they want.
> ...



It's same answers because it's the same question.  You ask me what 2+2= I will tell you 4.  Then someone else asks if I had 2 apples and 2 oranges how many pieces of fruit do I have...guess what...still 4.  Point is, that the answers are not going to change just because someone else starts up the same thread.

Am I defending KKW practices?  No.  KKW does what it does.  I think my answer from the beginning was very to the point, if you do not like it then you leave.  Markku has a situation with his government, well then either move out of the country where you don't have to be part of the KKW to have a school, start a process to make a change to your governmental laws in order to change the policy of needing an international organization, or change to ITF.    

Does he have the right to question KKW?  He has every right to ask.  Do they have the right to not answer?  Yes.  My question still stands.  Have you or anyone else gone directly to KKW with these questions? Not just through email or a phone call, but show up on their step and talk to someone about all of this?


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 19, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> And if the Kukkiwon disappeared of the face of the earth tomorrow would it really matter?  Nope life would go on and in 99% of the gyms nothing would change.  I think that more than says everything right there.



I think you've summed the whole thing up rather nicely


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## andyjeffries (Aug 19, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)



If they don't then what do they think the Kukkiwon is, a charity?  If they don't know it's a regular corporation, they should ask.



Markku P said:


> Why so secretive?



It's not secretive, it's just normal business practice.  My customers pay me for a service/product.  If they asked where the money went I would answer with "cocaine and hookers, why the f*** do you care?".  Well, probably not (as it's not true and a bit rude), but the point is the same.  You paid your money and you got your service/product.  What I do with the earnings/profit is entirely the business of the shareholders of my company.

Most private corporations don't publish detailed information on where their money goes, except for the accounts that I assume most governments require of them.  If you were that interested, I'm sure you could find someone who spoke fluent Korean to look up their accounts on whatever government site holds them.

Why don't they publish them online - because they don't have to...



Markku P said:


> If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.



And they were investigated by the government, found guilty, had changes made to the corporate structure and have moved on.  The government isn't currently investigating them (as far as I can find from searching) so they are happy that things are above board.  There's no point in keep saying "yeah, but under a past administration things were dodgy".  Bush was well deserving of his nickname "the global village idiot", but I don't consider America a permanently bad/stupid country because of the actions of one administration.

As Miguksaram rightly says though, if you want the answers to your questions asking them over and over again in online forums won't get you the answers as well as asking them.  I'd even go as far to say, if you can't visit Korea (I know it's financially unfeasible for some people) then pick up the phone and call them.  Be polite and I'm sure you'll get some answers.


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## d1jinx (Aug 19, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I think you've summed the whole thing up rather nicely



yeah, lets all run out and join the INTERNATIONAL DONG SOO KOO ***. thats one that matters.


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## d1jinx (Aug 19, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)
> Why so secretive? If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.
> 
> /Markku P.



so let me get this straight, your country finances 50 - 80% of your business so everytime I buy some swedish fish or swedish chocolate I am paying for your business???  I wanna see your financials to know how much of my candy bill pays your light bills.  better yet, I just wont buy anymore candy from sweden.


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## d1jinx (Aug 19, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> My question still stands. Have you or anyone else gone directly to KKW with these questions? Not just through email or a phone call, but show up on their step and talk to someone about all of this?



jeremy, your wasting your time. If someone has a question and cant figure out how to contact them and ask in the first place, they really dont wanna know and just wish to complain/whine/ and argue. trying to apply reason and explanations to this conversation is a waste of time. really simple answer, email them , include your DAN # so they know who you are, and ask your question. If you dont have a DAN number then you are a "NON-FACTOR" and do not deserve an answer in the first place. If you do and they wont answer you, then come back here and complain and maybe someone will provide some sympathy but more than likely not and the Kukkiwon haters and HOME-MADE-ORG lovers will pipe in and let everyone know what we already know, that they see no reason for the KKW in the first place and everyone is suckers for sending their money to some worthless "KOREAN" ORG.

anyone feel free to respond, cause you'll have the last word. I'm done.

gotta go renew my NRA membership. I enjoy sending money to different organizations regardless of what use they have.


dueces. I have left the building.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 19, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> yeah, lets all run out and join the INTERNATIONAL DONG SOO KOO ***. thats one that matters.



Wow, what a really well thought out, mature and intelligent post.  

You fail to understand that people can strongly disagree on a particular topic, yet still remain civil.  They can make their point(s) without resorting to the sort of juvenile retort you've made.  Jeremy and I, for example, disagree on this topic yet we have had several (I'd say many) excellent conversations through the years.  I can respect his view point and the fact that we may disagree from time to time on some things allows us both to reflect on our own opinions.  We may change an opinion or stance on a topic, or not, but we have and provide that opportunity.  That is why we can strongly disagree in this thread yet strongly agree on something else in another thread.  It's called being an adult.  Give it a shot.


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## miguksaram (Aug 19, 2011)

What I try to do, or at least started trying to do, is picture myself at the bar having drinks with all of you discussing these same topics.  How I respond is how I would try to respond in real life.  Those who have met me in person know this.   I have no animosity towards anyone here, nor do I ever plan on it.  Why should I?  It does not accomplish anything nor does it help my health to hold on to any type of anger.  

Do things get heated?  Yes..which just means it is time for another round of shots...DJinx...your turn to buy.   I understand DJinx frustration because as I stated earlier, this subject has just been rehashed over and over and over and over and over...well you get the idea.  So I don't expect any new input of great revelations.  It is what it is.  

No organization is perfect and no organization is a be all end all.  If KKW disappeared today, yes, life would go on.  IF ALL THE ORGS disappeared today, life would still go on and my training would not change.  If people have issues, then by all means take it up with the org and ask your questions.  You can post on here but don't expect a revelation because, as far as I know, there are no KKW reps who read this.  You might be better off posting your question on TKD.net where I know KKW reps read the postings.


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## Markku P (Aug 19, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> so let me get this straight, your country finances 50 - 80% of your business so everytime I buy some swedish fish or swedish chocolate I am paying for your business???  I wanna see your financials to know how much of my candy bill pays your light bills.  better yet, I just wont buy anymore candy from sweden.



I haven't said that government/city finances us 50-80%. Our schools can get support for the rents 50-100% if they are non profit organizations. I have a business and as business I won't get any support. We have also a club ( no profit ) and this way our club can get some support. (it's bit complicated so I can't explain all.)

..if you buy any Swedish candy or fish then it won't help us  they are also private corporations and they will pay tax in your country. ( and I believe their financial records are public..:ultracool

/Markku P.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 19, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> What I try to do, or at least started trying to do, is picture myself at the bar having drinks with all of you discussing these same topics.  How I respond is how I would try to respond in real life.  Those who have met me in person know this.   I have no animosity towards anyone here, nor do I ever plan on it.  Why should I?  It does not accomplish anything nor does it help my health to hold on to any type of anger.



Bingo!  

I post the same way I would discuss a topic face-to-face.  We do this at work all the time.  I can be in a heated, passionate debate with a fellow Deputy and five minutes later I'm backing him up or he is backing me up.  I can't understand some people who have an all-or-nothing approach to these boards or life in general.  They think, 'well I don't agree with this guy so he's the enemy so I'm going to hit him with a sarcastic remark and then simply leave the thread'.  I just don't get it?  A person has to be able to separate the person from the subject.  

As far as contacting the KKW directly, good advice.  If you like what they say then stay with them.  If you don't then find the means to leave.  As always, my bottom line is that it isn't where the paper comes from or the belt you wear, it's how you train and what you know and can do.  That is the measure of a martial artist.


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## Markku P (Aug 19, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> They are no longer a private corporation.  They are now a government company.  Yes, they did have some problems, which they have been punished for, it is also one of the things that lead up to the government takeover of KKW.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, have you ever called to talk to someone or call to get an appointment to ask these questions?



Last time I visit at Kukkiwon was early -90 and we asked some questions but did't really get answers..some yelling we got..
OK, I understand that was long time ago..

Just that everyone understands..I will provide Kukkiwon certificates for my students. Payment is still quite small. However, I wish they are much more open with everything, make certain that everyone has same rules and some kind of system that they can follow everyone follow the rules.
I also think there should be total separation between WTF and Kukkiwon. No more forced payments for the Kukkiwon.

/Markku P.


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## miguksaram (Aug 19, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Just that everyone understands..I will provide Kukkiwon certificates for my students. Payment is still quite small. However, I wish they are much more open with everything, make certain that everyone has same rules and some kind of system that they can follow everyone follow the rules.
> I also think there should be total separation between WTF and Kukkiwon. No more forced payments for the Kukkiwon.
> 
> /Markku P.



Yes..yes..and if wishes were farts we would all smell.


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## Archtkd (Aug 19, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I haven't said that government/city finances us 50-80%. Our schools can get support for the rents 50-100% if they are non profit organizations. I have a business and as business I won't get any support. We have also a club ( no profit ) and this way our club can get some support. (it's bit complicated so I can't explain all.)
> 
> ..if you buy any Swedish candy or fish then it won't help us  they are also private corporations and they will pay tax in your country. ( and I believe their financial records are public..:ultracool
> 
> /Markku P.



In this country if you operate as a non-profit your finances/annual tax returns are supposed to be open to the public, for inspection, at any time during regular business hours.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 19, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Wow, what a really well thought out, mature and intelligent post.
> 
> You fail to understand that people can strongly disagree on a particular topic, yet still remain civil.  They can make their point(s) without resorting to the sort of juvenile retort you've made.  Jeremy and I, for example, disagree on this topic yet we have had several (I'd say many) excellent conversations through the years.  I can respect his view point and the fact that we may disagree from time to time on some things allows us both to reflect on our own opinions.  We may change an opinion or stance on a topic, or not, but we have and provide that opportunity.  That is why we can strongly disagree in this thread yet strongly agree on something else in another thread.  It's called being an adult.  Give it a shot.


Good post. People should stay civil despite having different opinions. It is a touchy subject, moreso I believe for kukkiwon members because as someone else said "if the kukkiwon disappeared tomorrow NOTHING would change" and that is the bottom line. Our club thought long and hard before leaving the kukkiwon and there were the doomsayers within our org throwing out all sorts of theories of the horrible things that would happen if we ever dared leave. Anyway, 15 years on we are the strongest, most succesful club in our whole area with over 4000 students and very highly regarded in this country. We left, nothing happened, its a little like the Y2K bug, all propoganda no substance.


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## troubleenuf (Aug 19, 2011)

Here is how I see it (you dont have to see it this way but thats OK)
In the US the Kukkiwon is used this way:

By schools whos Black Belts are certified (I used to be guilty of this too) to pretend that they are better than those who are not certified.  In the end this is not true.  Especially since in 99% of the cases NO MEMBER OR OFFICIAL of the KUkkiwon has EVER set foot in any of these schools or clubs.

In addition Im betting that 90% of the current Black Belts certified by the Kukkiwon in the US have NEVER BEEN TRAINED by a member or official of the Kukkiwon for more than a few hours at best.  

So in the end tell me.. how does being certified by the Kukkiwon help or make anyone better?


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 19, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Here is how I see it (you dont have to see it this way but thats OK)
> In the US the Kukkiwon is used this way:
> 
> By schools whos Black Belts are certified (I used to be guilty of this too) to pretend that they are better than those who are not certified.  In the end this is not true.  Especially since in 99% of the cases NO MEMBER OR OFFICIAL of the KUkkiwon has EVER set foot in any of these schools or clubs.
> ...


Good post. I constantly hear of clubs offering kukkiwon certificates saying to their clientel that their black belts somehow have more 'credibility' or are somehow more 'reputable' because their black belts have this certification. In many cases the general public fall for this and think that club is somehow 'better' and by the time the student realises the kukkiwon certification means nothing (unless they are one of the 1% or less of students who want to go to the olympics), its too late, they are part of the club's system so they just stay. I will give the kukkiwon one thing, it is a powerful marketing tool to use gain potential clientel. Other than that though, I fail to see any advantage.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 20, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Good post. I constantly hear of clubs offering kukkiwon certificates saying to their clientel that their black belts somehow have more 'credibility' or are somehow more 'reputable' because their black belts have this certification. In many cases the general public fall for this and think that club is somehow 'better' and by the time the student realises the kukkiwon certification means nothing (unless they are one of the 1% or less of students who want to go to the olympics), its too late, they are part of the club's system so they just stay. I will give the kukkiwon one thing, it is a powerful marketing tool to use gain potential clientel. Other than that though, I fail to see any advantage.


What advantage do you gain by not offering kukkiwon certification? What advantage does a school certificate give you? I suppose the school certificate is cheaper for the student and takes less time to process, but is there any other advantage? As a school owner, giving kukkiwon certification doesn't have to cost you anything. The student is presumably paying for certification anyway, right? And as for the argument that your instructor's certificate is of more "value" than a kukkiwon cert, I just don't see it that way. Either way, your instructor is testing you. Your instructor sees you in class everyday and your instructor is the one who approves your promotion, kukkiwon or not. What's the difference? I don't see how this negatively affects the student/instructor relationship.

 Do we "need" the kukkiwon? I guess the answer is technically no. If the kukkiwon disappeared tomorrow our training probably wouldn't change all that much. If you place value in a cert backed by a large org, then use the kukkiwon. If you don't, then don't. 

I don't understand the need to talk negatively about the kukkiwon or any other org. Any org will have its problems, but there seems to be a lot of passive aggressive insults being tossed around in these types of threads, of the "if you want to be associated with 'those' kinds of people" variety, but I really don't think that's fair. There are too many anecdotal stories of kukkiwon misdeeds passed around on the Internet. We could say the same things about many groups. Governments do questionable things, but I don't see anything wrong with being proud of your country. Some Catholic priests are kid touchers, but that doesn't mean everyone should quit the church. There are dirty police officers, but that doesn't make cops a bad group as a whole. 

I personally value my kukkiwon certification. I originally had only a "school" cert. I got my kukkiwon later (I wanted to compete at WTF events). As a result, my "US" rank and my kukkiwon rank were not the same. I don't think I'm "better" than everyone who has a school cert, but I'm happy with my kukkiwon. 

I hope this post is coherent. I'm typing on an iPhone and it's a pain to scroll up and back to remember what I was talking about! Oh, and have a great weekend!


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## andyjeffries (Aug 20, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Good post. I constantly hear of clubs offering kukkiwon certificates saying to their clientel that their black belts somehow have more 'credibility' or are somehow more 'reputable' because their black belts have this certification. In many cases the general public fall for this and think that club is somehow 'better' and by the time the student realises the kukkiwon certification means nothing (unless they are one of the 1% or less of students who want to go to the olympics), its too late, they are part of the club's system so they just stay. I will give the kukkiwon one thing, it is a powerful marketing tool to use gain potential clientel. Other than that though, I fail to see any advantage.



The advantage to me is maintaining rank when you go to another club.

If you came to our club with a Kukkiwon 4th Dan, that's what you are in our club.  If you come to us with a Kwan rank from one of the main kwans in Korea, you're likely to be considered maybe the same grade or a grade or two below that (depending on your skill level).  If you come to us with "Mr Smith's Taekwondo, headed by 19th Dan Supreme Grand Poobah Smith" you're likely to be wearing a white belt until assessed and given an appropriate rank.

That's the advantage of recognised certification.

It doesn't necessarily affect how quickly you will get your next promotion with us - that's based on skill level rather than rank, but it does affect your starting rank with our club.


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## Markku P (Aug 20, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> The advantage to me is maintaining rank when you go to another club.
> 
> If you came to our club with a Kukkiwon 4th Dan, that's what you are in our club.  If you come to us with a Kwan rank from one of the main kwans in Korea, you're likely to be considered maybe the same grade or a grade or two below that (depending on your skill level).  If you come to us with "Mr Smith's Taekwondo, headed by 19th Dan Supreme Grand Poobah Smith" you're likely to be wearing a white belt until assessed and given an appropriate rank.
> 
> ...



Just curious, what you do when someone who has Kukkiwon certificate but don't know any of Poomsae and would like to join your school?

/Markku P.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 20, 2011)

They would be considered their current Kukkiwon rank and we would get them up to speed with poomsae as quickly as they could cope with.  They certainly wouldn't be promoted again until they knew them. If we knew the instructor and they literally knew no poomsae then it may include a quick call to the instructor to ask how they got their rank if they didn't know them.


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## Markku P (Aug 20, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> They would be considered their current Kukkiwon rank and we would get them up to speed with poomsae as quickly as they could cope with.  They certainly wouldn't be promoted again until they knew them. If we knew the instructor and they literally knew no poomsae then it may include a quick call to the instructor to ask how they got their rank if they didn't know them.



Last year I got 5 students from other school and they haven't done almost any poomsae at all. In their school they haven't done any poomsae, just sparring training.I did accept their Kukkiwon rank and now they are training with me. ( focus only for competition training ) 

/Markku P.


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## troubleenuf (Aug 20, 2011)

So basically what you are saying is that you accepted 5 students into your school that did not meet your standards of black belt but you allowed them to keep their black belts above your students who did meet your standards.... simply because of a piece of paper.  If you really step back and think about that- take out the fact that you hold the Kukkiwon in high regard.  Does that really make sense to you?  You have standards.  You make your students adhere to those standards, yet you accepted students and placed those students at ranks above or at the same rank as your students even though they did not meet your standards simply because they produced a piece of paper.  



Markku P said:


> Last year I got 5 students from other school and they haven't done almost any poomsae at all. In their school they haven't done any poomsae, just sparring training.I did accept their Kukkiwon rank and now they are training with me. ( focus only for competition training )
> 
> /Markku P.


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## Markku P (Aug 20, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> So basically what you are saying is that you accepted 5 students into your school that did not meet your standards of black belt but you allowed them to keep their black belts above your students who did meet your standards.... simply because of a piece of paper.  If you really step back and think about that- take out the fact that you hold the Kukkiwon in high regard.  Does that really make sense to you?  You have standards.  You make your students adhere to those standards, yet you accepted students and placed those students at ranks above or at the same rank as your students even though they did not meet your standards simply because they produced a piece of paper.



I hold Kukkiwon certificates high regard?? ( really? ) ..and I should say no for kids who needs my help..? It's not about piece of paper. I am ready to help anyone who needs help and next belt test they will know what rest of my students knows. By the way, I can't blame them that they have a black belts, it was their instructor who gave those Kukkiwon certificates )

..and I can't remove their Kukkiwon Ranks..?

/Markku P,


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## troubleenuf (Aug 20, 2011)

Actually you dont have to accept them at black belt Kukkiwon or otherwise.  As I have stated before I have sat down with students when they have came in that have not met standards and have placed them were I have felt they would be successful in my school regardless of their certification.  I guess I just assumed you held the Kukkiwon in high regard since you accepted their black belts without question.   There was a day when you could do that.  Unfortunately those days are long gone and while there are those out there that would like to keep claiming that a Kukkiwon black belt should be good anywhere it is just not true.  If there are NO STANDARDS and there ARE NONE because the Kukkiwon does NOT ENFORCE any (you can say anything you want on this subject but in the end there are no enforceable standards) then you have people running around handing out certificates to people who do not deserve them.  In the end it is your school.  YOU decide who you accept as a black belt and who you do not.  If someone comes in and does not meet your standards it is up to you what rank you put him at.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 20, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> The advantage to me is maintaining rank when you go to another club.
> 
> If you came to our club with a Kukkiwon 4th Dan, that's what you are in our club.  If you come to us with a Kwan rank from one of the main kwans in Korea, you're likely to be considered maybe the same grade or a grade or two below that (depending on your skill level).  If you come to us with "Mr Smith's Taekwondo, headed by 19th Dan Supreme Grand Poobah Smith" you're likely to be wearing a white belt until assessed and given an appropriate rank.
> 
> ...


From what Ive read on here from most instructors/school owners it seems most people dont automatically maintain rank anyway, they assess the student and start them off at an appropriate level irrespective of kukkiwon rank. I would imagine that if someone came into your school with a kukkiwon 1st dan piece of paper and they were clearly not up to speed, they didnt know the forms, had very poor technique, poor sparring etc I doubt the student would want to prance around in a black belt in a class where they clearly are not at that level, at least I know I wouldnt want to. I know of friends at kukkiwon clubs who tell me all the time that if I switched to their club they would honour my black belt anyway. It all comes down to whether or not you know your stuff. Generally, if you are black belt standard MOST clubs will honour your rank anyway regardless of what piece of paper you have just as clubs wont honour your rank if you are clearly not up to speed. I find it quite funny that people have kukkiwon black belts come into their clubs and they dont even know the forms, never is there a better example of kukkiwon certification having no meaning, clearly these people are getting certification for something they dont even know, its actaully quite funny when you think about it. It would be like me sending away for a medical degree despite not knowing anything about medicine, and just having the degree arriving in the mail. Im actaully really surprised that you would just honour the rank of anyone who wanders through the doors of your school because of a piece of paper, its your school, your standards and you let anyone wear a black belt because of a piece of paper they got elsewhere even if they clearly have no idea what they are doing. That does seem odd, and it appears most instructors on here dont operate like that and place the student at the appropriate rank until they reach black belt.


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## Markku P (Aug 20, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> I guess I just assumed you held the Kukkiwon in high regard since you accepted their black belts without question.



I am pretty confident about my ablilty to teach so I accept people to my school from any organization and I don't really care where they come. If they show cerificates I acccept them and I know I can teach them become as good as any other student of mine. Last 25 year I had around 10 black belts from other schools who has started with me and I no problems at all. Like I mention before for next belt test they have to know same material than everyone else.

My students know how we work and there will be always black belts from another schools who might want to train with us so my students trust my judgement.

/Markku P.

PS: I might be against rules of our national federation say No for students with Kukkiwon certificates..


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## Markku P (Aug 20, 2011)

I haven't told how you can get a Kukkiwon certificates in here. It's quite simple. Chairman of the club will send application to to national federation, will pay and 2-3 months later he will get certificates. It doesn't matter what belt rank a chairman has. I asked from person who is a contact person in national federation what students need to know and he told me that "they don't care, it's school's decision how they like to do, we are more like a service organization"

/Markku P.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 20, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Actually you dont have to accept them at black belt Kukkiwon or otherwise.  As I have stated before I have sat down with students when they have came in that have not met standards and have placed them were I have felt they would be successful in my school regardless of their certification.  I guess I just assumed you held the Kukkiwon in high regard since you accepted their black belts without question.   There was a day when you could do that.  Unfortunately those days are long gone and while there are those out there that would like to keep claiming that a Kukkiwon black belt should be good anywhere it is just not true.  If there are NO STANDARDS and there ARE NONE because the Kukkiwon does NOT ENFORCE any (you can say anything you want on this subject but in the end there are no enforceable standards) then you have people running around handing out certificates to people who do not deserve them.  In the end it is your school.  YOU decide who you accept as a black belt and who you do not.  If someone comes in and does not meet your standards it is up to you what rank you put him at.


Great post and the key word in all that is "ENFORCE". If the kukkiwon do not enforce their standards then you just cant go honouring the rank of any one who comes wandering through the doors of your dojang. Until the standards are enforced the certificate is only a piece of paper unfortuantely.


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## Markku P (Aug 20, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> the certificate is only a piece of paper unfortuantely.



This is what many Korean grand masters has told me personally. What they normally ask is who is my teacher and then they might reply something about him.

/Markku P


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 21, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Actually you dont have to accept them at black belt Kukkiwon or otherwise.  As I have stated before I have sat down with students when they have came in that have not met standards and have placed them were I have felt they would be successful in my school regardless of their certification.  I guess I just assumed you held the Kukkiwon in high regard since you accepted their black belts without question.   There was a day when you could do that.  Unfortunately those days are long gone and while there are those out there that would like to keep claiming that a Kukkiwon black belt should be good anywhere it is just not true.  If there are NO STANDARDS and there ARE NONE because the Kukkiwon does NOT ENFORCE any (you can say anything you want on this subject but in the end there are no enforceable standards) then you have people running around handing out certificates to people who do not deserve them.  In the end it is your school.  YOU decide who you accept as a black belt and who you do not.  If someone comes in and does not meet your standards it is up to you what rank you put him at.



This is a great point.  The KKW (and to be fair, other orgs) have standards that have and can be changed on a whim.  And in truth, shouldn't the student be more interested in the training itself than the color of the belt they wear?  If they have to go to another school of the same org and they don't meet the standards of the new school for the rank they have, they should be more than willing to 'step down' as it were because it should mean that they will receive additional training they don't yet possess.

I'm reminded of something George Mattson (first American Uechi Ryu BB) once put in one of his Uechi Ryu books.  While training on Okinawa he was at the central Uechi Ryu Dojo (back in the 50's).  He trained alongside a number on men wearing white belts.  As they trained he observed that their Karate was extremely powerful and later found out they were Godan (5th Dan).  He inquired as to why they were wearing white belts and was told that they just never got around to buying a black belt and didn't think it would help their Karate any if they did.

That is the proper attitude and mind set in regards to rank.  It isn't about what your wear, where you got it or the number of hash marks you may have.  It is about what you can do and eventually what you can teach that defines you as a martial artist.


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