# I would never want to be without my....



## Lisa (Jul 7, 2008)

If you were heading into a situation that you knew you could very easily end up needing a weapon, what one would you never want to be without and why.

Finish the sentence:

I would never want to be without my....


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## arnisador (Jul 7, 2008)

"If you need a weapon to go in there...don't go in there."

 That having been said, I like the flexibility of a knife--it can be used in-close and is also a useful tool.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 7, 2008)

I would never want to be without my....friend Lisa's Chew! :uhyeah: 


Ok, ok... 
I would never want to be without my....folding knife. Since I carry it with me 99% of the time I don't have to worry about NOT having it and needing it.


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## tellner (Jul 7, 2008)

What arnisador said. 

My beloved first Silat teacher B. T. "Blunt Trauma" Bollers loves to quote the wisdom of his grandfather. "Boy, if you need a gun carry two and a big Bowie knife. If you don't need a gun at least carry a .25 automatic. And if you need a gun to go in that bar, *don't* go into that bar."

If I knew that I would be attacked at a certain time and place and would need a weapon I'd do everything I could to be somewhere else at that particular time. If it were unavoidable my preference would be to show up a couple days early high up and out of sight with cover, concealment, a ghillie suit, a sniper's veil, a scoped bolt-gun and a spotter. If you can't avoid trouble there's no earthly reason to meet it on its own terms. Meet it on yours.


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## shesulsa (Jul 7, 2008)

Knowledge.


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## Archangel M (Jul 7, 2008)

Bushmaster M4 flat-top with CompM4 red dot sight. And 2 steel magazines with self-leveling followers loaded up with 75 gr. BTHP TAP. :uhyeah:


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## Fiendlover (Jul 7, 2008)

I would never want to be without my sais.

:ultracool


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 7, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Knowledge.


 
I was going to say brain but Knowledge covers it rather well.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 7, 2008)

Lisa said:


> If you were heading into a situation that you knew you could very easily end up needing a weapon, what one would you never want to be without and why.
> 
> Finish the sentence:
> 
> I would never want to be without my....


 
Will to act with the necessary blackness of heart to come out alive. All else is supplemental. Worse come to worst, If I'm gonna need a weapon and don't have one,  some very thoughtful but very stupid people are about to, most likely, bring me my pick of 'em. :EG:


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 7, 2008)

Lisa said:


> If you were heading into a situation that you knew you could very easily end up needing a weapon, what one would you never want to be without and why.
> 
> Finish the sentence:
> 
> I would never want to be without my....


Running shoes!


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## Kacey (Jul 7, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Knowledge.



Like Xue, this encompasses my answer... so I'll say hands and feet; I do train in an empty-hand style, after all!


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## Archangel M (Jul 7, 2008)

Remember the original post.



Lisa said:


> *If you were heading into a situation that you knew you could very easily end up needing a weapon*, what one would you never want to be without and why.
> 
> Finish the sentence:
> 
> I would never want to be without my....


 
I hope I meet up with enemies who say brain...hands...etc...kidding, kidding, I know where you are going, but if you knew you were going "into the ****", I would hope you would be packing a weapon that could meet the challenge.

I would be packing a rifle, a pistol and a good knife. Unless I had a tank.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 7, 2008)

Intuition.


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## terryl965 (Jul 7, 2008)

Knowledge and no how is all any one needs and the common sense not to be there in the first place.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 7, 2008)

My mind set is somewhat akin to *Kacey*'s in that I would chose to have my katana as it's the only weapon I truly have any skill with.

I don't want to gainsay those who have said something akin to 'knowledge' in one form or another as intelligence can indeed be a weapon but I think the OP was aimed with a slant towards the physical.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 7, 2008)

M16, IBA, and Kevlar.


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## Lisa (Jul 7, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Remember the original post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What kind of rifle, What kind of pistol, what kind of knife, what kind of tank   And why that particular kind?


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## tellner (Jul 7, 2008)

Another thing to consider is what weapon is appropriate for the situation. A hand grenade is useless in close quarters if you are in the same room. An old Chevy pickup is a great weapon if the bad guys are coming at you with a car. It falls short in five feet of water. A rifle is good for long range. A sword is better close up. Empty hands are safer legally. They second best against armed people. Planting kiddie porn on your enemy's computer and calling the police lacks the element of personal violent catharsis but could be a more permanent long term solution to your problem.

The world's best air conditioner is a lousy screwdriver.

My choice of weapon would depend on the situation, the range, the type and number of threats, local laws and many other things.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 7, 2008)

arnisador said:


> "If you need a weapon to go in there...don't go in there."
> 
> That having been said, I like the flexibility of a knife--it can be used in-close and is also a useful tool.



My friend Jeff stated what I do. If I know it is a bad place I do not go. If it is a possible bad place I try not to go. 

I carry a knife with me and also other tools that could be used as impact discussion points. 

As to the knowledge point I agree as well. Which is why I usually do not drink a lot when I do not know the place and people. Consuming items that limit my knowledge and reaction are something I do in limitation.



But I always have a pen with me. The Pen can be used to get a phone number, to help explain a point with pictures, or to sign for a bill.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 7, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I think the OP was aimed with a slant towards the physical.


OK, if you're going to be spoiled sport about it , gimme a good stick any day. Great all around utility, legal deniability, and easy to use as an extension of the hand/arm. Obvious drawbacks against overwhelming bladed- or fire-power. 



			
				tellner said:
			
		

> My choice of weapon would depend on the situation, the range, the type and number of threats, local laws and many other things.
> 
> The world's best air conditioner is a lousy screwdriver.


 :rofl:


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## morph4me (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm going to join in the knowledge, intuition, intent, and awareness category and add in a real bad attitude. My tactical folder would be my weapon of choice if it got physical.


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## Archangel M (Jul 7, 2008)

A good carbine is good up close and personal and out as far as the average rifleman can hit. Bushmaster, Rock River, and some other M4geries do the trick just fine. A pistol to fight my way to a rifle. Glock is my fave. And a knife to fight my way to a pistol or rifle.

The Tank? Who wouldnt want a tank? M1A1 of course.


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## tellner (Jul 7, 2008)

As I've said in the past, the "knowledge and wisdom" bit is a ******** copout, not an answer. We're all grownups. We all agree that you need to know what you're doing and have the sense to avoid doing anything stupid. The not-so-hidden subtext with answers like this is "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter." That may be true. Knowledge will help you swing a sword or spot a weakness. It won't poke holes or crush skulls. 

Lisa is very articulate and says what she means.  If she wanted to know what _faculties_ and _abilities_ do you find most important I'm sure she would have said so. I would have provided a reference to the late great Colonel Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense which explains it better than any of us could ever hope to equal.


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## Archangel M (Jul 7, 2008)

tellner said:


> As I've said in the past, the "knowledge and wisdom" bit is a ******** copout, not an answer. We're all grownups. We all agree that you need to know what you're doing and have the sense to avoid doing anything stupid. The not-so-hidden subtext with answers like this is "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter." That may be true. Knowledge will help you swing a sword or spot a weakness. It won't poke holes or crush skulls.
> 
> Lisa is very articulate and says what she means. If she wanted to know what _faculties_ and _abilities_ do you find most important I'm sure she would have said so. I would have provided a reference to the late great Colonel Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense which explains it better than any of us could ever hope to equal.


 
Man! We need to skip the politics and talk martial arts! Im with you there. :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 7, 2008)

tellner said:


> As I've said in the past, the "knowledge and wisdom" bit is a ******** copout, not an answer. We're all grownups. We all agree that you need to know what you're doing and have the sense to avoid doing anything stupid. The not-so-hidden subtext with answers like this is "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter." That may be true. Knowledge will help you swing a sword or spot a weakness. It won't poke holes or crush skulls.
> 
> Lisa is very articulate and says what she means.  If she wanted to know what _faculties_ and _abilities_ do you find most important I'm sure she would have said so. I would have provided a reference to the late great Colonel Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense which explains it better than any of us could ever hope to equal.




******** cop-out?

How is your opinion better than mine or anyone else? 

While I agree that putting holes into people with your fingers or pens or knives or projectiles are not what people do on a daily basis. The comment that they are holier than though is unjustified and unproven with your argument / statements. That is your opinion and how you feel.

So why do you feel grubbier? I do not feel dirty or ashamed for my actions or words.


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## shesulsa (Jul 7, 2008)

tellner said:


> As I've said in the past, the "knowledge and wisdom" bit is a ******** copout, not an answer. We're all grownups. We all agree that you need to know what you're doing and have the sense to avoid doing anything stupid. The not-so-hidden subtext with answers like this is "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter." That may be true. Knowledge will help you swing a sword or spot a weakness. It won't poke holes or crush skulls.
> 
> Lisa is very articulate and says what she means.  If she wanted to know what _faculties_ and _abilities_ do you find most important I'm sure she would have said so. I would have provided a reference to the late great Colonel Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense which explains it better than any of us could ever hope to equal.





Archangel M said:


> Man! We need to skip the politics and talk martial arts! Im with you there. :asian:





Rich Parsons said:


> ******** cop-out?
> 
> How is your opinion better than mine or anyone else?
> 
> ...



*sighs*

A knife, gun, sword, tank, grenade, A-bomb, kiddie porn, biological weapon, whatever ... in the hands of someone who doesn't know what the **** they're doing? Yeah, that's effective.

Planting kiddie porn undetected on someone's computer or planting evidence or using biochemical weaponry takes intelligence.  So does when to use a knife and when to use a gun.



			
				tellner said:
			
		

> "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter."



Tellner ... why do you do this? To incite argument? To bait?  I'd argue that the sentence you typed here does exactly what you're claiming my stated value of knowledge is doing.  I will not allow you to wedge your words into my mouth ... please stop doing that.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 7, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Tellner ... why do you do this? To incite argument? To bait?  I'd argue that the sentence you typed here does exactly what you're claiming my stated value of knowledge is doing.  I will not allow you to wedge your words into my mouth ... please stop doing that.




I would argue that it is direct trollish behavior. 

I would report it as such, but until there is an issue made of something posted I guess then it is not really an issue. 

I would try negative feedback with comments of discussion, but that would get me insults and having multiple people hit me with negative reputation comments stating I am attacking TEllner. 


For some reason I tried to take people off my ignore list and to see if they have improved or maybe I was having a bad week when I put them on my list. 

But then I started thinking (* I know dangerous and it does hurt  but on a serious note *), why does he get to express his opinion and I do not. Why do I have to stay quiet to keep him and his friends happy?


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## shesulsa (Jul 8, 2008)

A spork. That's what I need. A spork.


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## Archangel M (Jul 8, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> A knife, gun, sword, tank, grenade, A-bomb, kiddie porn, biological weapon, whatever ... in the hands of someone who doesn't know what the **** they're doing? Yeah, that's effective.


 
Why the assumption that anybody is untrained or doesnt know what they are doing? I thought that training or skill was assumed as this is the weapons forum.

While a bit crass and confrontational, Tellners point, if Im understanding it correctly, has some weight. I think hes touching on the point that some martial artists seem to believe that their superior "training" and their bare hands or some archaic weapon are going to be "all they need". That someone who mentions a gun is some sort of Rebel Flag waving *gasp* Republican *gasp* with an NRA bumper sticker. I suggest that any wizened Martial Warrior Sage of the ancient past would have adopted and made an art of the Pistol or Rifle as quickly as they did the Sword or the Bow. Back then it was about what WORKED. It seems that the modern version of martial arts is about other issues. While attitude, knowledge etc ARE all important, even vital, not all weapons are created equal. If they were we would still be using swords and bows. As a matter of fact, what helped bring the gun to preeminence was the fact that you didnt need years of training to be effective. A few hours can make you "combat effective" with a gun. No so much with a sword or a Sai.

So since the question was based on an "if you were going into danger what weapon would you take" statement. And this is the Weapons forum. I agree with Tellner. Id take the most effective one I could handle. And I can handle the ones I mentioned. 

The Tank would be a reach though. Unless it has an M2 mounted on top.


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## tellner (Jul 8, 2008)

Shesulsa, since you ask I'll tell you as honestly as I possibly can. It's going to be a little long and involved because I want to be clear.



> Pronunciation: \&#712;we-p&#601;n\ Function: _noun_ Etymology: Middle English _wepen,_ from Old English _wæ&#772;pen;_ akin to Old High German _w&#257;ffan_ weapon, Old Norse _v&#257;pn_ Date: before 12th century 1 *:* something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy


Weapons and what they represent - the power to take a life - are a really touchy issue for a lot of martial artists. In pretty much any aspect of the martial arts up to there a person can avoid the thornier issues. You can hit someone or lock him or spar or just about anything up to twisting his neck until it dislocates without getting too close to the bone. Almost all empty hand techniques can be dialed down to the point where they are painful or even injure people. But they don't have to come close to deadly force.

When weapons are involved there's almost no honest way to avoid the subject. A sword is fundamentally a tool for cutting or stabbing in ways which will kill or cripple. A gun makes holes in people. A club breaks bones. The beauty of the arrow's flight ends with it sticking out of someone. You can certainly make the practice a way of self perfection just like you can flower arranging or serving tea. The actions and the tool still represent an ugly reality and a destructive power.

Ask a bunch of smiths "If you wanted to make an anchor what are the tools you wouldn't want to be without?" None of them would say "knowledge" or "skill at the forge". Everyone knows that you need those. It's assumed. They'd say something like "a three pound cross-peen hammer, a shop anvil at least 200 pounds with no horseshoeing clip, a hold down, a straight cutting hardy, a hot set, a six pound sledge, a hold down, at least one assistant, a mandrel and a Centaur Forge's #2 swedge block". There would be all sorts of discussions about the particulars of the tools. But anyone with familiarity and some skill would give answers in that general vicinity.

If you ask someone "What do you like to hit with when you spar?" or "What's your favorite part of that form?" he or she will answer "the backfist" or "the heel" or "the sequence half way through that starts with a turning kick and a parry and ends with an extended cat stance". You'll never hear "The knowledge of how to hit" or "My mind, because the form is a mental construction". People who don't do a lot of hitting are happy to say "Striking's not my forte". 

With weapons it's a whole different thing. Some will say "My martial art doesn't deal with them very much" and leave it at that. But you can count on a large fraction to throw it back by saying that their favorite weapon is something non-physical. It's almost always "knowledge", "wisdom" or "calm". It's an answer you only get when the discussion is getting close to issues of force and power, life and death and the ability to preserve the former by potentially taking the latter. 

That's why I say it's a copout. The participants consistently pull away from the difficult and unpleasant issue by identifying something non-threatening which makes one appear to be wise and studious. The answer is a change of subject which makes the speaker appear wiser and more cerebral than the person who answers the question directly. And it is a praiseworthy personal quality rather than a tool or attribute normally associated with prevailing over another in direct conflict. One never hears equally valid but more direct answers like "ruthlessness", "tenacity", "total commitment" or "the willingness to be cut down as long as I can do the same to him". 

The expletive is there because the response is perfectly designed to make one who responds directly to the question appear less wise, less advanced and overly concerned with physical things. It's a first cousin to the case of the student who asks "Can you use your art to fight?" and receives the reply "The highest form of martial art is not to fight." It may or may not be true. But it doesn't answer the question and by implication belittles both the person who asks it and another who gives a straight answer such as "yes", "no", "I don't know" or "most of the time so far". 

Whenever I've pursued it with someone it's alwys led back to one of two basic positions. 

Some people really have gone all the way through. They're comfortable with weapons and what they mean. The fact that what they do can cause deadly violence has been internalized and is a matter of choice, not anxiety or avoidance. They're intimately familiar and have developed real skillls to the point where the weapon and its use are understood and implied. The things that concern them are on different levels because they've already passed through the earlier stages and mastered the tools. People at that level of development are rare.

The other sort is not familiar or comfortable with the issues surrounding violence and deadly force or the tools which make such things easier. Weapons as weapons are at least somewhat alien to them. Many people at those stages are aware of it and respond accordingly. A large number is not so self aware and papers it over by avoiding the issue, usually in a radical fashion which denies the validity of the question and the value of considering it in depth. One way is to assume the language of people of the first type without having the chops.

When people won't give a straight answer to something straightforward they probably aren't comfortable with or prepared for the question.

And that's the truth as clearly as these very fallible eyes can see it.


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## shesulsa (Jul 8, 2008)

I've revealed much on these forums - more than I ever really intended to.  I'm not obligated to reveal any more about my intention, preferences nor anything else than I feel necessary.  If you don't like my answer then that's really just too bad.  I don't care if you think I'm an unprepared idiot, a fake, a wannabee, or lacking in linguistics.

Have a nice day.


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## Drac (Jul 8, 2008)

My Kubotan or my Pro-Tek Key..


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## KenpoTex (Jul 8, 2008)

Since I already have a pretty substantial loadout that I'm never without...

If I get to add something, I'm taking my AK


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 8, 2008)

Well going in the direction the thread has taken.....

I do stand by my original answer--it will matter not one whit if I have my "favorite" weapon to hand or not if I'm not prepared, without question, to use it for its intended purpose at the critical instant. Blackness of heart and will to act it is, then.

If a physical description is insisted upon--there's really not too much my H2H, folding knife and fully loaded 1911 couldn't handle from a civilian perspective where I live.

If I need more than that, there's not much more I'd realistically bump into that my Mossberg 590A1 wouldn't dispatch or discourage awful quick.( Something about the pump being racked on a shotgun with a bayonet mounted that just seems to make people *S*it *D*own and *B*e *Q*uiet).

If something occurs where all of that will do me no good then, frankly I'm likely toast no matter WHAT i would have brought. *shrug* But i don't intend on going down easily.....or alone.


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## morph4me (Jul 8, 2008)

tellner said:


> Shesulsa, since you ask I'll tell you as honestly as I possibly can. It's going to be a little long and involved because I want to be clear.
> 
> 
> Weapons and what they represent - the power to take a life - are a really touchy issue for a lot of martial artists. In pretty much any aspect of the martial arts up to there a person can avoid the thornier issues. You can hit someone or lock him or spar or just about anything up to twisting his neck until it dislocates without getting too close to the bone. Almost all empty hand techniques can be dialed down to the point where they are painful or even injure people. But they don't have to come close to deadly force.
> ...


 
If you give someone a gun and they don't know how to take off the safety, what amunition it takes, how to clear or reload it, and you might as well give them a rock. If you ask me what I need to make an anchor I'll tell you a heavy weight and something to tie it too.

Maybe you like the terms strategy and tactics better than knowledge?  You're assuming that the people who have weapons know how to use them, how much training do you assume they have? Where they're instructor's any good? Have they been practicing? Assumption is the mother of all ****ups.


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## Lisa (Jul 8, 2008)

tellner said:


> As I've said in the past, the "knowledge and wisdom" bit is a ******** copout, not an answer. We're all grownups. We all agree that you need to know what you're doing and have the sense to avoid doing anything stupid. The not-so-hidden subtext with answers like this is "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter." That may be true. Knowledge will help you swing a sword or spot a weakness. It won't poke holes or crush skulls.
> 
> Lisa is very articulate and says what she means.  If she wanted to know what _faculties_ and _abilities_ do you find most important I'm sure she would have said so. I would have provided a reference to the late great Colonel Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense which explains it better than any of us could ever hope to equal.



Although I find tellner's delivery somewhat brutal at times, (he has a tendency to get peoples hackles up) he is right about my intention with this thread.  That is not to say I am not thankful for everyone's post here and I do believe knowledge and wisdom are important in any violative situation.  I tried really hard to start a conversation regarding what "weapon" you would use and by putting it in the "weapons" section I thought that would be the responses I would see.  If I was unclear, then I apologize to all who have responded and will strive to be more clear in the future.

One thing I would like to point out is, I believe everyone's responses are reflective of who they are and their experiences.  I find that very interesting indeed.  It doesn't make their answers right or wrong, just different and I think we need to look at everyone's point of view, take what we need from their knowledge and formulate what we can use to protect ourselves.  Take Kenpotex for example.  I already know how armed Matt is.  Although his arsenal is not for me, the fact that he uses his weapons in an every day situation makes him someone I believe could tell me that this knife is crap or that one is really good.  Just as I would take the word of any other poster who has been in a volatile situation and got out safely as having something to contribute, even if their answer was "my wits" and "experiences" because that is what saved them.

So lets continue with our conversation, for I have learned alot and would like to know more about the weapons you chose and why.  You all are highly intelligent members of this forum and I don't want to see this thread derailed or reported because of a few words.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 8, 2008)

My good sense tells me to stay miles away from the swamp which this discussion has become, but since Lisa so generously explicated a little more of her intention, I'll give it one more go.

I work in a County, as in public, school system. The baddest of the bad boys are my students (any worse and they get juvenile prison--not short term detention, but multiple years). We staff are not allowed to bring much more than nail clippers in the way of anything bladed or pointed, and bring a firearm, even in your trunk with a CC permit, and you're dust. To complicate this, many of the outsiders who *beef* with those in the class and whom I've personally seen, interacted with, confronted, and yes, managed to stand down, may be minors in the eyes of the law, even though that hasn't stopped them from bringing firearms, tire irons, and more shanks than one could count, when they prepare to ambush some of my students after school. So answers to the OP like *tank* are a little over the top for me--cartoonish even--when I can't even carry a blade longer than a couple of inches. 

So, yes, I've taken nothing but my wits, knowledge, intuition, whatever, to more than one gunfight. Someone may want to again disparage that as a non-answer, but it's my reality. I seem to lose about one kid a year to such stupidity and cowardice, but have managed to not lose more. Did I play a hand in that, with said wits, etc....? I don't know. But if violence was avoided, I do know I did everything an unarmed man could do. In the service of absolute truth, it should be noted I did discover the combat cane along the way, and that's even legal with the TSA. 

So what weapon would/do I take to gang fights, jumpings, racial violence as it erupts? A good stick is what I can justify, along with every scrap of experience and knowledge that I have been able to garner in two decades of doing this work.

But enough. Today's the final day of the very long school year (11 months), and if things are going to go sideways, then today--after school at the end of the year--will be the time. So, once again I'll live by my wits and hope it's enough. And if that's not a good enough answer for some in this thread, well then, I can live with that.


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## Kacey (Jul 8, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> My good sense tells me to stay miles away from the swamp which this discussion has become, but since Lisa so generously explicated a little more of her intention, I'll give it one more go.
> 
> I work in a County, as in public, school system. The baddest of the bad boys are my students (any worse and they get juvenile prison--not short term detention, but multiple years). We staff are not allowed to bring much more than nail clippers in the way of anything bladed or pointed, and bring a firearm, even in your trunk with a CC permit, and you're dust. To complicate this, many of the outsiders who *beef* with those in the class and whom I've personally seen, interacted with, confronted, and yes, managed to stand down, may be minors in the eyes of the law, even though that hasn't stopped them from bringing firearms, tire irons, and more shanks than one could count, when they prepare to ambush some of my students after school. So answers to the OP like *tank* are a little over the top for me--cartoonish even--when I can't even carry a blade longer than a couple of inches.
> 
> ...



The school I teach in isn't quite as bad as the one kidswarrior is in - if only because the kids are younger - but like him, I am not allowed any weapons longer than a 2" knife... in fact, I pulled out my Swiss Army knife once to fix the pencil sharpener, and one of my students reported me to the principal for having a weapon in school (it was dismissed - the principal came down to the class and explained the difference between a 1" pen knife in the hands of a teacher and the 6" or longer knives taken from the kids).  So I don't think in terms of weapons, except for whatever might be around that I can pick up on the spur of the moment - which, in my classroom, would mean pencils; after that, I'm up to student desks, and they're a bit awkward .  

So I must, perforce, rely on my training - that is, my hands and feet - because I can't bring anything else with me.  Sure, I could mock up something; I could have a kubiton or something similar that's not recognized as a "weapon" under state law - but that's not what I train with (although perhaps I should), and reaching for a weapon wouldn't be my first reaction if I needed something.

For me to have a gun would be pointless - I've never used one; I've never so much as held a real gun (although a friend of mine has offered to teach me, and we're looking for a time that works for both of us).  A knife wouldn't be much better, as I've trained in knife defense and therefore picked up a few things about knife attacks - but I've rarely trained with a knife, so again, my first reaction would not be to go for a knife if I needed to defend myself.

This is not intended, in any way, to be, as tellner put it "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter" - rather, it is a recognition of the fact that I don't know what the hell to do with these weapons if I had them - so I will stick with the ones I know, the ones I have trained with, because those are the ones I'd get the best outcome from.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 8, 2008)

tellner said:


> As I've said in the past, the "knowledge and wisdom" bit is a ******** copout, not an answer. We're all grownups. We all agree that you need to know what you're doing and have the sense to avoid doing anything stupid.


 
Ahh but you are assuming that we are all approaching this form the same POV you are. 

When I say my brain I am approaching it form the POV that it is not a good thing to go into any situation mindlessly and it is certainly not a good idea to mindlessly use a weapon. Obviously one should not use a weapon they have little or no training in, that is incredibly stupid and likely not going to help you much either. But even trained without the proper mind set the weapon is useless. It may be comforting to have your hand on the 45 when confronted but if you can't bring yourself to use it then it is of little use. I have to be honest here, I am pretty sure I could hit or kick someone rather hard; I could even hit them rather hard with a staff. But I am not certain I could stab or cut someone so why carry a knife? I am only slightly more confident that I might be able to shoot someone so carrying a gun.... maybe.

And from what I have read in this entire thread, IMO, the best and most realistic and least litigation answers have come for kidswarrior, intuition and a big stick. 

If you use your brain and follow your gut (intuition) it is likely you can avoid many situations all together. But if you can't a big stick works rather well too.


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't trust myself with a weapon. I am not trained in any, except very limited knife techniques, limited arnis stick training, and some staff. Not enough to be proficient in any of them. 

I have fired a gun a couple times, but that's not enough for me to be comfortable carrying one. Pocket knives seem to be a popular choice, but again, while easy to carry and effective in the right hands, I don't have enough training to prevent the weapon from being used against me. 

The best I could hope for is to use an empty hand technique to buy me enough time to get the hell out of there, or maybe use a key to gouge an eye or something. I wish I could answer this question the way it was asked, but it makes me realize alot of people do have weapons training, it's something I'm lacking, and it's a good thing to have. 

Yeah, I'll just be staying out of dark alleys and rough bars for now thank you.


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## kwaichang (Jul 8, 2008)

Drac said:


> My Kubotan or my Pro-Tek Key..


 
Hey, another who carries this invention.  I've carried it since T. Kuboda invented it; took a two day course at S&W to be certified on how to use it and have carried it ever since.  Of course two yrs. after that they realized it could be a weapon and wouldn't let me take it on board; I took it back to the car as I knew I'd never see it again if I gave it to the screeners (this was way before TSA).

But baring flying, I carry it with a lot of keys on it.  In this manner it can be used as a *metsabushi strike.*


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## shesulsa (Jul 8, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Take Kenpotex for example.  I already know how armed Matt is.  Although his arsenal is not for me, the fact that he uses his weapons in an every day situation makes him someone I believe could tell me that this knife is crap or that one is really good.  Just as I would take the word of any other poster who has been in a volatile situation and got out safely as having something to contribute, even if their answer was "my wits" and "experiences" because that is what saved them.
> 
> So lets continue with our conversation, for I have learned alot and would like to know more about the weapons you chose and why.  You all are highly intelligent members of this forum and I don't want to see this thread derailed or reported because of a few words.



Anyone ... _anyone_ ... who reads what I post ... :shrug: ... *knows* what my weapon of choice is.  Should I find myself without it, I want to know what I can make use of in my environment wherever I am.  I want the hours of practice I did put in. I want the ability to alter technique for the moment and the person.  Knowledge is my best answer - sorry if that offends anyone.

:asian:


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## kwaichang (Jul 8, 2008)




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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm in Australia where we are totally dis-armed and only the police and the bad guys have weapons.
 I have my fighting stick in the car which is illegal and i also carry a small plastic hand weapon called the stinger which over here would be classified as a knuckleduster which is also illegal. 
I carry these things because i believe the chance of my wife and i being attacked by numerous young guys in a car is greater than the police finding me with these weapons. 
But if we had the same laws as America you better believe i would be carrying a firearm or a knife, over here if your found with a knife the maximum penalty is 14 years jail, i don't know if anybody has ever done that time but it doesn't seem to deter young wannabee gangsters from running around with Glocks and knives they just seem to get a slap on the wrist and let back out again.


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## kwaichang (Jul 8, 2008)

Yeah, we NRA members here watched as your populace let their elected representatives take away your rights and the ensuing stories about crime since have not been pleasant.
Maybe you'll get a chance to change things next election.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 8, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Something about the pump being racked on a shotgun with a bayonet mounted that just seems to make people *S*it *D*own and *B*e *Q*uiet).



Holy ****, you have a bayonet mounted shotgun!?!  I know what I want for Christmas...


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## tellner (Jul 8, 2008)

Empty Hands, the Mossberg 590 12 gauge pump shotgun has a lug that fits the  m-7 and m-9 bayonets. It gives one the calm confidence of a Christian with four aces.


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## kwaichang (Jul 8, 2008)

:rules:Well I suppose the question was open ended enough to allow for military style weaponry which is not available to every day citizens to carry on the way to Wal-Mart; I just didn't interpret it that way.:headbangin:


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 8, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> :rules:Well I suppose the question was open ended enough to allow for military style weaponry which is not available to every day citizens to carry on the way to Wal-Mart; I just didn't interpret it that way.:headbangin:


 

Well it's as I said, the 590's for if, by some malevolent twist of fate, I am given to understand in our hypothetical situation that I must enter into, that dialing 1-9-1-1 will not be enough. Which is a pretty scary realization by itself as, I suppose, my 1911 *is* the closest thing I have to a "favorite" weapon.(To me they're all just tools, even though certain tools handle better in my particular grip).


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 8, 2008)

tellner said:


> Shesulsa, since you ask I'll tell you as honestly as I possibly can. It's going to be a little long and involved because I want to be clear.



I prefer longer and better formed arguments.




tellner said:


> Weapons and what they represent - the power to take a life - are a really touchy issue for a lot of martial artists. In pretty much any aspect of the martial arts up to there a person can avoid the thornier issues. You can hit someone or lock him or spar or just about anything up to twisting his neck until it dislocates without getting too close to the bone. Almost all empty hand techniques can be dialed down to the point where they are painful or even injure people. But they don't have to come close to deadly force.



And I contend that people with the right skill set can do the same with a weapon. Not all strikes need to be deadly. Some could be permanent damage but not deadly, by default. 




tellner said:


> When weapons are involved there's almost no honest way to avoid the subject. A sword is fundamentally a tool for cutting or stabbing in ways which will kill or cripple. A gun makes holes in people. A club breaks bones. The beauty of the arrow's flight ends with it sticking out of someone. You can certainly make the practice a way of self perfection just like you can flower arranging or serving tea. The actions and the tool still represent an ugly reality and a destructive power.



You say ugly reality. I call it reality. No ugly and no beauty is involved. 



tellner said:


> Ask a bunch of smiths "If you wanted to make an anchor what are the tools you wouldn't want to be without?" None of them would say "knowledge" or "skill at the forge". Everyone knows that you need those. It's assumed. They'd say something like "a three pound cross-peen hammer, a shop anvil at least 200 pounds with no horseshoeing clip, a hold down, a straight cutting hardy, a hot set, a six pound sledge, a hold down, at least one assistant, a mandrel and a Centaur Forge's #2 swedge block". There would be all sorts of discussions about the particulars of the tools. But anyone with familiarity and some skill would give answers in that general vicinity.



As an engineer I like my pen. I also like the M1A2 tank I worked on in the early 90's, but I made the presumption that such a weapon would not be considered normal. i.e. cost and limited access and training to use. 





tellner said:


> If you ask someone "What do you like to hit with when you spar?" or "What's your favorite part of that form?" he or she will answer "the backfist" or "the heel" or "the sequence half way through that starts with a turning kick and a parry and ends with an extended cat stance". You'll never hear "The knowledge of how to hit" or "My mind, because the form is a mental construction". People who don't do a lot of hitting are happy to say "Striking's not my forte".



When it comes to forms, I find very little useful to me. I can see the beauty in the movement and in the knowledge of knowing such a sequence. 

But even though I do not like them(forms), I teach them and I can discuss them. 

I also have no problems with discussing actual experiences and knowing when I got hurt the most was when my intent was not there. Or when I hesitated for the sake of lessoning the degree of reality they were about the meet. 




tellner said:


> With weapons it's a whole different thing. Some will say "My martial art doesn't deal with them very much" and leave it at that. But you can count on a large fraction to throw it back by saying that their favorite weapon is something non-physical. It's almost always "knowledge", "wisdom" or "calm". It's an answer you only get when the discussion is getting close to issues of force and power, life and death and the ability to preserve the former by potentially taking the latter.



This is a coherent statement with significant points that should be acknowledged and discussed.

For those who have never been in a life or death situation with a weapon on them or with them do not know of what they speak. I understand that training will help, but is not the same as actual experience. There was a person on this board previously that made the statement that no one would know what they would do in a life and death situation. I stated that while each situation is different, that I could based upon my experiences make the statement that I would act given the situation as described. Of course no one can react when they are assassinated from a distance without their knowledge. 




tellner said:


> That's why I say it's a copout. The participants consistently pull away from the difficult and unpleasant issue by identifying something non-threatening which makes one appear to be wise and studious. The answer is a change of subject which makes the speaker appear wiser and more cerebral than the person who answers the question directly. And it is a praiseworthy personal quality rather than a tool or attribute normally associated with prevailing over another in direct conflict. One never hears equally valid but more direct answers like "ruthlessness", "tenacity", "total commitment" or "the willingness to be cut down as long as I can do the same to him".



So, can I call you on being a cop-out as well? I have asked you on this thread a question and also on another thread in the past to explain your statements. But as you refuse to reply I have to assume that it is ok for you to Cop-out but not ok for others. This I find to be contradictory and makes all your statements including your opinions subject.


As to the your last sentence, I have stated many similar things in lots of other posts. 




tellner said:


> The expletive is there because the response is perfectly designed to make one who responds directly to the question appear less wise, less advanced and overly concerned with physical things. It's a first cousin to the case of the student who asks "Can you use your art to fight?" and receives the reply "The highest form of martial art is not to fight." It may or may not be true. But it doesn't answer the question and by implication belittles both the person who asks it and another who gives a straight answer such as "yes", "no", "I don't know" or "most of the time so far".



But it is ok for you to imply that others are less wise and advanced etcetera. Once again it is ok for you and not others. 

As to not fighting, I personally agree it is the best form of self defense, which is to not be involved in the first place. But I see your point that those who are not prepared to take action or to make the choice are just in some form of delusion. 

So once again I ask why is it ok for you to call people out but I cannot call you out? Why are you above reproach? 




tellner said:


> Whenever I've pursued it with someone it's alwys led back to one of two basic positions.



...



tellner said:


> Some people really have gone all the way through. They're comfortable with weapons and what they mean. The fact that what they do can cause deadly violence has been internalized and is a matter of choice, not anxiety or avoidance. They're intimately familiar and have developed real skillls to the point where the weapon and its use are understood and implied. The things that concern them are on different levels because they've already passed through the earlier stages and mastered the tools. People at that level of development are rare.



Thank you for the recognition that those skill sets are rare. Yes it could be an arrogant comment, yet, I think it is just a fact in this case. I have used and had used upon me multiple weapon types. I will state that I feel comfortable with the stick and blade, but not with the firearm. Why not the firearm? I have not been in a situation where I had a firearm and the option of using one. I have been in situations where they had firearms, and shots were fired in multiple instances. Being shot at causes one to understand what it means to react, and in many cases the reaction is after the shot is fired and if you are hit so be hit. I have never been shot though. 

So thank you with the caveat I state above. 




tellner said:


> The other sort is not familiar or comfortable with the issues surrounding violence and deadly force or the tools which make such things easier. Weapons as weapons are at least somewhat alien to them. Many people at those stages are aware of it and respond accordingly. A large number is not so self aware and papers it over by avoiding the issue, usually in a radical fashion which denies the validity of the question and the value of considering it in depth. One way is to assume the language of people of the first type without having the chops.



I understand your point. 




tellner said:


> When people won't give a straight answer to something straightforward they probably aren't comfortable with or prepared for the question.




So are you uncomfortable to give me answers to questions I have asked you in the past?




tellner said:


> And that's the truth as clearly as these very fallible eyes can see it.




And this is how I see your post(s), you get to be insulting and call others out, but do not reply to others or me when we or I have issues with your posts as you seem to have issues here. 

And so the truth I see is different then you are projecting.


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## shesulsa (Jul 8, 2008)

I've lived violence.  I've gone without sleep in the war zone that was my home for weeks at a time.  I've turned family members over to the police. Since I began training, I've abated a few power-over skirmishes ... enough to know what my psyche does in that situation and what my attacker will meet with at the end of my blade.

The battle is not only physical. Anyone who thinks all can be reduced to one tool, one item, one weapon ... is an utter FOOL.

I appreciate Lisa's focus on a tool ... an instrument, Tellner.  But I don't appreciate your continued, repeated, condescending, unknowing suppositions just because I will not spew forth a plethora of empty threats and data sheets of tactical prowess.

Have fun waving it.  I'm leaving this conversation.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 8, 2008)

kwaichang said:


>


 


http://www.bizarretees.com/store/cp...s-90356953+i-am-the-weapon-green-t-shirt.html


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## arnisador (Jul 8, 2008)

tellner said:


> [...]it's a copout. The participants consistently pull away from the difficult and unpleasant issue by identifying something non-threatening which makes one appear to be wise and studious. The answer is a change of subject which makes the speaker appear wiser and more cerebral than the person who answers the question directly.



I have to agree. It's the _Rambo: First Blood Part II_ answer: "I've always believed that the mind is the most powerful weapon of all." It turns a vague question into a party-game. I am reminded of the Trivial Pursuit question: What did every human since the beginning of time die of? Answer: Lack of oxygen to the brain. To all those who answered knowledge/brain/intuition/etc., I ask: Surely you wouldn't go in there without an adequate supply of oxygen???

Indeed, it's a change of subject and a form of one-upmanship. This is already not an especially deep subject for a thread, but the first few people listing a weapon on the first page gave brief explanations for their choice, whereas "Knowledge." is something of a thread-stopper. This leaves aside the question of whether it would be possible to go somewhere without your knowledge/brain/etc.

I didn't think *tellner *was inciting an argument or showing trollish behaviour. I thought his point was dead-on, and as this thread is a frequent "let's try to get some posts going here" thread starter, it comes up often enough to be worth addressing. It's about topicality (we are in a Weapons section, after all, and I understadn MT to mean "physical weapons" in its use of the term here). Would this thread be interesting to read if it was full of answers like "brain/mind/etc."? isn't it potentially more interesting when people are discussing the merits of different tools? Would anyone like to read a discussion of whether your brain is more important than your cardiovascular system in a violent encounter?

For those who chose personal abilities and training over weapons, I refer you to the Wikipedia entry on the Boxer Rebellion. But if you'd still prefer to be unarmed, please explain and support that position--don't drop in a one-word, holier-than-thou non-answer.



terryl965 said:


> Knowledge and no how is all any one needs



And yet, the USMC issues its members rifles at great cost to the United States taxpayer.

Mind you, those listing tanks etc. are also not playing fair. But I suppose it's a matter of whether one wants a martial arts discussion or a "name a larger weapons systems" thread. Anyone care to jump straight to Imperial Death Star and win?


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't need no steeenkin' Death Star! I got the POWER GLOVE!!!


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 8, 2008)

Lisa said:


> So lets continue with our conversation, for I have learned alot and would like to know more about the weapons you chose and why. .


 
A) I own them
B) I put in the time to stay reasonably competent with them
C) Both firearms I mentioned have reputations for reliability and stopping power and let's face it, no sane person argues with a shotgun even if it DOESN'T accept a bayonet .


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## arnisador (Jul 8, 2008)

morph4me said:


> You're assuming that the people who have weapons know how to use them, how much training do you assume they have?



Well, people were allowed to choose their own response here. It wasn't as though weapons were being assigned to them (in which case asking for training would be reasonable). If people choose a weapon on which they're not trained, that's likely a bad idea.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 8, 2008)

arnisador said:


> I didn't think *tellner *was inciting an argument or showing trollish behaviour. I thought his point was dead-on, and as this thread is a frequent "let's try to get some posts going here" thread starter, it comes up often enough to be worth addressing.


 
Todd's not a bad guy, just on some occasions he can be likened to an otherwise brilliant surgeon who nevertheless flunked bedside manner, is all.


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Mind you, those listing tanks etc. are also not playing fair. But I suppose it's a matter of whether one wants a martial arts discussion or a "name a larger weapons systems" thread. Anyone care to jump straight to Imperial Death Star and win?


 
Hey now. I was kidding. 

For those who did mention weapons. Ammunition choice is arguably as important as the weapon. This day and age most well manufactured weapons will perform at a level higher than the average shooter can "drive them". The projectile is what actually does the work at the other end. Automatics require specific choices for optimal mechanical performance, and terminal effects are important as well.


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2008)

morph4me said:


> If you give someone a gun and they don't know how to take off the safety, what amunition it takes, how to clear or reload it, and you might as well give them a rock. If you ask me what I need to make an anchor I'll tell you a heavy weight and something to tie it too.
> 
> Maybe you like the terms strategy and tactics better than knowledge? You're assuming that the people who have weapons know how to use them, how much training do you assume they have? Where they're instructor's any good? Have they been practicing? Assumption is the mother of all ****ups.


 
Ya know..we keep seeing this "how do you know THEY are trained" thing..the question is what would YOU take. "Knowledge" isnt the the anwser to that question. 

With the knowledge you have, what would YOU take into "the **** storm"? 

If the zombies are shambling down your block and the commie hordes are parachuteing into your backyard what would you take? What would you hope your neighbor has? Trained or not, if he can load it point it and pull it, Id want him manning the perimiter. If some nutjob starts shooting up the mall and the poor untrained citizen pulls his pistol and gets shot then at least he went out trying to defend himself, not hiding under a food court table praying the BG wont notice him.


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## kwaichang (Jul 9, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> If the zombies are shambling down your block and the commie hordes are parachuteing into your backyard what would you take?


 
:uhyeah: and I thought I was the only one who thought like this.:lool:


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 9, 2008)

arnisador said:


> I have to agree. It's the _Rambo: First Blood Part II_ answer: "I've always believed that the mind is the most powerful weapon of all." It turns a vague question into a party-game. I am reminded of the Trivial Pursuit question: What did every human since the beginning of time die of? Answer: Lack of oxygen to the brain. To all those who answered knowledge/brain/intuition/etc., I ask: Surely you wouldn't go in there without an adequate supply of oxygen???
> 
> Indeed, it's a change of subject and a form of one-upmanship. This is already not an especially deep subject for a thread, but the first few people listing a weapon on the first page gave brief explanations for their choice, whereas "Knowledge." is something of a thread-stopper. This leaves aside the question of whether it would be possible to go somewhere without your knowledge/brain/etc.
> 
> ...




Jeff,

TEllner's original post was trollish. He was insulting and looking to cause conflict because it touched him personally. He does not wish to admit it, nor explain why it is ugly or dirty to think about or know about the reality of the situation. 

His second post was a much better attempt at trying to explain his frustration over the knowledge answer. 


But you see Jeff, I have seen a pattern from TEllner and that it is ok for him to call people out. It is ok for him to insult people. But when I do it or others do it is wrong. So my point is that he is trying to have it both ways and not respond intelligently to my questions to him here and other locations, but chooses to ignore them. 

How is that any  different in the end then the thread stopper answer of knowledge? To be it is not. You see, I have not posted for a long time because of TEllner and the fact that this board seems to like him and wishes to promote his attitude. I removed him from my ignore list trying to be the better man. Trying to see if I made a mistake. And right out of the gate I see this duplicitous action again. 

He is allowed to insult people and kill treads his way, but for others it is not allowed. When I tried to report in the past I get a message back saying I am being reprimanded for a post I made to use the ignore button. Then I get some staff member sending me a message trying to find out obtusely if I am really upset. I am not. I am disappointed. I find that I ask myself, "Why should I share my knowledge with people who wish to promote an insulting arrogant person?" I am not looking for an all the time PC feel good discussion here. I enjoy a good argument with well detailed positions and points. 


As to why or how knowledge could be the correct answer:

1) I choose not to drink and thereby limiting my brain activity.

2) I choose not to do drugs including smoking cigarettes as this may cause an agitated state or altered state of mind. 

3) I choose to look for exits when I enter a place. 

4) I choose to look for people in the crowd that walk and carry themselves in a manner I come to recognize. 


Now, if TEllner and others wished to ask for people to expand why they stated KNOWLEDGE then that would be in the premise of the "Friendly Discussion of Martial Arts" that this board was based upon. 

Instead, he calls ********! Well I am calling ******** on him. 

I am still waiting for a reply form him. 

Yet, Jeff as I stated in another post here, I agree that those that have no clue of violence and no clue of conflict or how they will react need to understand that this is an issue. But I always think back to this guy I know at work. His last fight was when he was pushed down at the age of 4 or 5 in kindergarten.  Since then he has avoided all forms of conflict. He grew up in a well off home. He went to nice schools. He went to a good college. He uses his knowledge, to drive safe roads to not go to places where he might feel like he is in danger or having fear. His knowledge of martial arts is limited to knowing that they exist. His knowledge of weapons is that of he knows they exist. Yet, he walks into a situation with the knowledge he has. But he actively chooses the path he is on to protect himself. 

So, I repeat, that asking for a better explanation is a good point. 

That asking for clarification is good. 

That asking for details on what they mean is good.


But, to first cry ******** and then to base his whole second post on assumptions that are not posted or stated by anyone until he posts them. 

This is like testing them on a theorem that is covered in a previous class and assuming that everyone can show the work even though they might have a shorter solution with a new method in place. But is one does not explicitly ask or state what is to be assumed then it is unfair to for them to presume and assume that others are thinking what they are thinking. 

So, until someone explains to me how his actions were not trollish, and while I see some of your points that he had valid points to make, he did not express them properly. He insulted people as he has in the past and expects everyone to treat him with kid gloves. 

To me that is BS!

My apologies to the board and staff, but the issue here is not of what was intended, but the impact of his actions. The Supreme Court ruled for sexual harassment that the IMPACT was what mattered. I am just trying to make a point that TEllner's actions were not proper, nor what he wants to be treated like, or how his friends who have sent me messages in the past telling me I had better leave him alone. To me this makes me wonder what is up with this person and his friends.


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## arnisador (Jul 9, 2008)

You'e a little obsessed here, dude.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 9, 2008)

arnisador said:


> This is already not an especially deep subject for a thread, but the first few people listing a weapon on the first page gave brief explanations for their choice, whereas "Knowledge." is something of a thread-stopper. This leaves aside the question of whether it would be possible to go somewhere without your knowledge/brain/etc.


 
Here

People have different approaches to answering a question that may or may not agree with your view or tellner's and that does not make them wrong. There were no guidelines stated in the original post and by title "I would never want to be without my...." gives little advice on direction.

But if I look at this from the POV that you are pushing or tellner than I was very wrong for saying "Brains" but it would have been ok to say my A10 Wart Hog or ICBM. That is a bit silly IMO but so be it. I was unaware that there were unstated guidelines that needed to be followed here.

Also if saying "Knowledge" or "brain" is a thread stopper it ain't much of a thread to begin with and it appears that even though "Knowledge" and "brain" where said.... the thread did not stop.

It has however degraded into an argument since then and this is more likely a thread stopper than the answers of Knowledge or brain.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 9, 2008)

Calmly gentlemen. Things are getting a little too 'rough-house' in here it would seem.

I took the OP to be orientated this way:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1005579&postcount=15

and *Lisa* clarified here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1005867&postcount=36

I'd suggest that posters steer a course back to topic before things get out of hand.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 9, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Anyone care to jump straight to Imperial Death Star and win?



Nope, X-Wing beats Death Star.   Well, as long as you can hit a race unit shaft less than 2 meters wide!


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## thardey (Jul 9, 2008)

As a physical weapon, in my day-to-day life, I prefer my Glock .45. The odds of what I will have to face favor the type of situation that could be survived by having that particular tool within access at _most_ all times.

The thread is "I would *never* want to be without my...." Which to me, means what wouldn't you want to leave behind. There are no "safe places" in this world. Churches, schools, etc., are targets, and as dangerous as other "dangerous" places. Granted, there's the "don't go into that bar" argument, and that's wise, but that doesn't mean that there are "safe zones" which we can live in all the time.

The idea of a "base" or "sanctuary" is a false sense of security. Not to be paranoid, but to be aware. In my own home, my "castle" my place of refuge, is where I have access to the most weaponry. Because that's where I spent most of my time. It feels safe because, only because that is where I have the most defensive measures in place. If my own home isn't a place of safety, then where is? 

So, I can keep a Glock with me at nearly all times, or within moment's access, and it is very effective at "diffusing" dangerous situations. ("Diffusing" from my perspective, LOL).


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## kwaichang (Jul 9, 2008)

Agreed.  Having things "stashed" around your home is a good way to always have access to something no matter which room you may be in should someone break in.  
I too prefer carrying but there are places that prohibit (clueless legislators) and so alternates must be considered.
"Mind" is something I've not lost; yet.:ultracool


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## arnisador (Jul 9, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Having things "stashed" around your home is a good way to always have access to something no matter which room you may be in should someone break in.



Yes, that's always on my mind. I'm rarely far from a (potential) edged weapon at home. It's not likely to happen, but also not difficult to plan for!


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## MJS (Jul 9, 2008)

Lisa said:


> If you were heading into a situation that you knew you could very easily end up needing a weapon, what one would you never want to be without and why.
> 
> Finish the sentence:
> 
> I would never want to be without my....


 
I would have to say a blade or a stick.  Both can be easily adapted to a few other tools, so even if we didn't actually have a blade with us, picking up a pen for example, we can still stab.  Same effect as a blade?  No, but the idea is there. 

This thread has moved on many pages, so while looking at a few posts, some caught my eye, particularly the ones that mentioned the effect on life if we choose to use a weapon.  Like our empty hand work, we can adjust what we do.  We can lock or we can break something.  With a weapon, we don't always have to think of killing, although with some weapons, that may be the only option.  So, while I have my blade, I may not have to go so far as to stab the person in the heart, but instead opt for a cut on the arm.  If we're really as adept with our weapons as we should be, we should also be able to dictate how much injury we inflict.  

People tend to be grossed out at the martial arts in general.  The thought of hitting someone makes some cringe.  I say go join a knitting class.  The arts involve contact, the arts involve an aspect of violence.  You need to understand that and you need to accept that.  If you can't then get out because they're not for you.  Yes, avoiding a fight should always be first and foremost, but if we can't run, if we can't talk our way out, then resorting to violence is the option thats left.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 9, 2008)

In any physical conflict, what I wouldn't want to be without would depend on the situation.  In most cases, limiting myself to strictly weapon selection of those I'm familiar with and confident with, I'll take a cane/walking stick. I can use it with some confidence.




Regarding the thread as a whole, I suggest that some take the 'sticks' from their asses and cut out the shots & BS. You have a rules violation, report it. You have a problem with how staff handles it, you call me. If you have a problem with someone else's position you can either ignore it, ignore them, or blow up in public then wonder why a mod smacks you hard.  Cut it out. I think everyone's too old for the 'time-out' stool, but sometimes I read stuff and wonder which kindergarten I wandered into.  This is a good topic, stop crapping on it.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 9, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> In most cases, limiting myself to strictly weapon selection of those I'm familiar with and confident with, I'll take a cane/walking stick. I can use it with some confidence.


Yes, that familiarity increases with age.  But take heart, youngun', cause there are many such advantages to getting older, as you'll undoubtedly discover. :yoda: :bangahead:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 9, 2008)

Looking through the choices others have given, is an interesting read.
Firearms I'm not familiar with, blades I'm not good with so taking either with me, I think wouldn't be of much use to me.  A cane/stick is what I've trained heavily with, and can be improved from a branch, a broom handle, or even a tire iron. I often walk with a walking stick, so it's also the most likely to be on me weapon.


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## kwaichang (Jul 9, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I often walk with a walking stick, so it's also the most likely to be on me weapon.


 Ahh, a Roosevelt fan.


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## Archangel M (Jul 9, 2008)

I also think you have to take what you may be facing into account. The OP was kind of vauge as to the situation so we are all thinking of what sort of "bad situation" we may be facing. If the situation was having to go into a place where getting shot at is a possibility (and you had no choice but to go) then taking a stick would be a pretty poor choice IMO. If the situation was having to go to work in a violent high school than taking a military style rifle would be a silly answer too.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 9, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> I also think you have to take what you may be facing into account. The OP was kind of vauge as to the situation so we are all thinking of what sort of "bad situation" we may be facing. If the situation was having to go into a place where getting shot at is a possibility (and you had no choice but to go) then taking a stick would be a pretty poor choice IMO. If the situation was having to go to work in a violent high school than taking a military style rifle would be a silly answer too.


Very true. I've been around guns all my life, could easily settle on a carbine with personalized *fixtures* as my anti-zombie/anti-parachuting commie (do we even have those anymore? ) weapon of choice. But given where I'm most likely to encounter trouble, guns are out of the question--for me (it seems the bad guys can have all they want :xtrmshock). Hence my original answer, based on my experience.

And I guess I didn't see the OP as vague, so much as open-ended. Not a bad thing, unless we start to deny others the right to their experiences and thoughts.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 9, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> very true. I've been around guns all my life, could easily settle on a carbine with personalized *fixtures* as my anti-zombie/anti-parachuting commie (do we even have those anymore? :d) .


 

wolveriiiiiiines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kidswarrior (Jul 9, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> wolveriiiiiiines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Nah, around here we only have chihuahuas and poodles...oops, CHEW, I was only sayin.... :uhohh:


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## exile (Jul 9, 2008)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=427486. Please avoid personal confrontations with other participants. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 9, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Ahh, a Roosevelt fan.


Walk softly (that's my limited ninja training see?) and carry a big stick (and that's the FMA training. Has nothing to do with rumors of compensating, honest)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 9, 2008)

In staying with the origional posters idea for the thread:

Personally I would like to have an assault rifle, followed by a shotgun with a bayonet, next down the line would be my Glock followed by a knife then a stick and eventually down to a pen or something similar.  Only as a last resort would I want to rely on my empty hands.  You see I would much rather engage with some type of tool.  Of course having the right tool at your beck and call at the right moment in time is the trick. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





*Actually I hope to never have to use a tool in the moment again.*


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 10, 2008)

44 Magnum, most powerful handgun in the world.....

I suppose I'd actually go for my knife that I customised and personalised. Or a knife and handgun/rifle combo. Nooo, too much to choose from...

How about a BFG, can we get one of those...?


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## thardey (Jul 10, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> wolveriiiiiiines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



For wolverines: "I used a freakin' 12 gauge, what do you think?" :shock:


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 10, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> wolveriiiiiiines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
I call your wolveriiiiiiines and raise you Hungry grizzlies :EG: 


Actually I never want to be without by pet Bengal Tiger named fluffy


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## kidswarrior (Jul 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I call your wolveriiiiiiines and raise you Hungry grizzlies :EG:
> 
> 
> Actually I never want to be without by pet Bengal Tiger named fluffy


Alright, now you've done it. I wasn't going to disclose this, but...

_now _I've got to warn you about my ultra deadly, 108 Dragontail, 1000 heavenly pressure point, kill hordes of attackers even through walls, *CHI!!!!!!!!!!!* :mst: :ultracool

Actually, the kill through walls part is the smell from my really my old gi.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 10, 2008)

Hyper_Shadow said:


> 44 Magnum, most powerful handgun in the world.....



More than the Desert Eagle .50 cal?


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 10, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Alright, now you've done it. I wasn't going to disclose this, but...
> 
> _now _I've got to warn you about my ultra deadly, 108 Dragontail, 1000 heavenly pressure point, kill hordes of attackers even through walls, *CHI!!!!!!!!!!!* :mst: :ultracool
> 
> Actually, the kill through walls part is the smell from my really my old gi.


 
ahh but you forget I train the ultimate deadly, 109 Dragontail, 1010 heavenly pressure point, kill hordes of attackers and weeds even through walls, Chi 

and so does fluffy


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## kwaichang (Jul 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> \
> 
> and so does fluffy





Well if we're using Harry Potter animals, don't forget Buckbeak.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 10, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Well if we're using Harry Potter animals, don't forget Buckbeak.


 
There was no Bengal Tiger named Fluffy in Harry Potter.

I can't be held responsible if there just happens to be a 2 headed dog of the same name


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 10, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> More than the Desert Eagle .50 cal?


 
or the Austrian Pfeifer-Zeliska .600 Nitro Express Magnum


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## kwaichang (Jul 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> There was no Bengal Tiger named Fluffy in Harry Potter.
> 
> I can't be held responsible if there just happens to be a 2 headed dog of the same name


 Oh, and BTW, it's three heads.:ultracool


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 10, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Oh, and BTW, it's three heads.:ultracool


 
OH so now it's my fault I can't count 

Sorry about that, it has been awhile since I have seen that movie, to be honest I took a wild guess as to which animal it was in the first place


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## kidswarrior (Jul 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> or the Austrian Pfeifer-Zeliska .600 Nitro Express Magnum


Don't know that I believe this: _The recoil is not uncontrollable, but instead, tamed by the guns weight._
Uhhh, Huhhh.  Could someone with a spare $16,000 buy one and let us know?


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 10, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Don't know that I believe this: _The recoil is not uncontrollable, but instead, tamed by the guns weight._
> Uhhh, Huhhh.  Could someone with a spare $16,000 buy one and let us know?


 
Well it certainly would not do well in a quick draw contest that's for sure.


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## Hyper_Shadow (Jul 11, 2008)

> More than the Desert Eagle .50 cal?



Damn, I knew I shouldn't have listened to the guy that sold me that hand cannon. Think his name was Harry. Hey guys if you see a guy with a funny squint called Harry he's a ripoff merchant don't listen to him when it comes to  handguns!:mst:

Hey if we're using animals I'll just untether that spare Chimera I got chewing on unfortunate bands of merry adventurers in my garden and use him. I call him Mister Happy he especially likes to eat horses and people riding horses (normally Irish jockeys).


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## LanJie (Jul 13, 2008)

I agree with arnisador if you know a situation is dangerous and you can avoid it you should.

Avoiding dangerous situations prevents injuries, lawsuits, recovery time, lost wages, and missed martial arts practice.


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 16, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Intuition.


 

I think I'm with you on this one.


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 21, 2008)

Brain.


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## kwaichang (Jul 21, 2008)

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


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## wrc619 (Aug 21, 2008)

Short stick, or an improvised facsimile, such as a rolled up magazine.  "He beat you to a pulp with Black Belt Magazine.  Get out of here.  Not guilty!":angel:


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## Brian S (Aug 22, 2008)

......cell phone.


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## kwaichang (Aug 22, 2008)

http://www.beststungun.com/cell-phone-stun-gun.html?gclid=CI2w2t7ioZUCFRJexwodlSlKaA
Cell phone stun guns have a unique design that gives you a tactical advantage unlike any other type of self defense weapon on the market today. It is a stun gun disguised as a cell phone to create a low-key and unnoticeable appearance for personal protection. The attacker won't even notice that you have a powerful self defense weapon in your hand and ready to use. A surprise counter-attack is crucial for a successful escape. With the help of an 800,000 volt (Firestorm Cell Phone Stun Gun) or 900,000 Volt (Immobilizer Cell Phone Stun Gun) stopping power, the effectiveness of the surprise attack is increased. The unique design of the cellular phone stun gun maximize your ability to stop the assailant. Cell phone stun gun is definitely one of the best self defense weapons created for personal protection of our time.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 22, 2008)

i would never want to be without my mind...which is my most powerful and infact nuclear weapon


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## kwaichang (Aug 22, 2008)

Time for disarmament.


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## Empty Hands (Aug 22, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> i would never want to be without my mind...which is my most powerful and infact *nuclear weapon*



Is this your profile pic by any chance?


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## KenpoTex (Aug 22, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> http://www.beststungun.com/cell-phone-stun-gun.html?gclid=CI2w2t7ioZUCFRJexwodlSlKaA
> Cell phone stun guns have a unique design that gives you a tactical advantage unlike any other type of self defense weapon on the market today. It is a stun gun disguised as a cell phone to create a low-key and unnoticeable appearance for personal protection. The attacker won't even notice that you have a powerful self defense weapon in your hand and ready to use. A surprise counter-attack is crucial for a successful escape. With the help of an 800,000 volt (Firestorm Cell Phone Stun Gun) or 900,000 Volt (Immobilizer Cell Phone Stun Gun) stopping power, the effectiveness of the surprise attack is increased. The unique design of the cellular phone stun gun maximize your ability to stop the assailant. Cell phone stun gun is definitely one of the best self defense weapons created for personal protection of our time.


worthless...


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## kwaichang (Aug 23, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> worthless...


 
hmmm, presuming you've tried the product.....otherwise tasers are quite effective at bringing down the aggressor.


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## jks9199 (Aug 23, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> hmmm, presuming you've tried the product.....otherwise tasers are quite effective at bringing down the aggressor.


That's not a Taser, or one of the very few similar products.  It's basically a cattle prod.  They're not overly effective.

Taser, Inc. is making a http://www.taser.org/taserc2-2.html; if you're going to get something in that line, spend the money, go through the class, and carry it.  I still don't consider it a great personal self defense tool, even though it's a great arresting tool.  It's an incapicitating tool -- not a stop or disable tool.  When the cycle is over, what're you gonna do?  The Taser C2 gives you 30 seconds to run...


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## kwaichang (Aug 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> That's not a Taser, or one of the very few similar products. It's basically a cattle prod. They're not overly effective.


Of course it isn't a "Taser" that's a copywrite name; it IS a stun gun of 'taser' type.
Actually the product description says: "This Firestorm Cell Phone Stun Gun is powered by two lithium batteries you can find at any Target or WalMart. This may not sound like much of a power source, but these batteries generate 800,000 Volts of pure stopping power."
***The basic idea of the stun gun is to disrupt this communication system by delivering a high voltage (very fast) combined with a low amperage (low intensity) charge to temporarily disable an attacker for several minutes. The high voltage allows the charge to quickly pass through clothing and skin, When you press the stun gun against an attacker and hold the trigger, the electricity stored in the stun gun is dumped into the assailant's nervous system and the normal body signals get mixed up with noise. The muscles and brain are no longer able to communicate because the messages are no longer understood. _*The result is temporary confusion and imbalance.*_ Alternatively, stun guns can generate current with a pulse frequency that mimics the body's own electrical signals telling the attacker's muscles to do a great deal of work rapidly. But the work is not directed toward any particular movement. The rapid work cycle instantly depletes the attacker's blood sugar by converting it to lactic acid. The attacker is left unable to produce energy and *too weak to move*.***


This higher the voltage, the quicker the stop. This means that your attacker will be down for the count faster the more punch you pack in your personal stun gun. 800,000 Volts also ensures that the stopping power goes through thin shirt or sweater your attacker may be wearing. 



jks9199 said:


> It's an incapicitating tool -- not a stop or disable tool. When the cycle is over, what're you gonna do? The Taser C2 gives you 30 seconds to run...


You've sort of answered your own question. Thirty seconds allows you to disable the incapacitated person and in some cases, to actually leave the scene safely.
Further, having seen demos (no I didn't volunteer) the subjects really can't do much for several minutes after being stunned, other that try to stand up.:angel:


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## KenpoTex (Aug 23, 2008)

Brand names aside, a Taser and a Stun-gun are two different things...

A Taser shoots out probes connected to the unit by a wire, the probes embed themselves in the target and deliver the charge.  Depending on the unit, they have an effective range of 15-20 feet or so.

A Stun-gun must be pressed against the target meaning that you must be close enough to touch you assailant.  I've been hit with a stun-gun and while it was uncomfortable, it _wasn't_ incapacitating and I sure as heck didn't go down.



			
				jsk9199 said:
			
		

> That's not a Taser, or one of the very few similar products. It's basically a cattle prod. They're not overly effective.
> 
> Taser, Inc. is making a ; if you're going to get something in that line, spend the money, go through the class, and carry it. *I still don't consider it a great personal self defense tool,* *even though it's a great arresting tool. It's an incapicitating tool -- not a stop or disable tool.* When the cycle is over, what're you gonna do? The Taser C2 gives you 30 seconds to run...


yup.


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## jks9199 (Aug 23, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Of course it isn't a "Taser" that's a copywrite name; it IS a stun gun of 'taser' type.
> Actually the product description says: "This Firestorm Cell Phone Stun Gun is powered by two lithium batteries you can find at any Target or WalMart. This may not sound like much of a power source, but these batteries generate 800,000 Volts of pure stopping power."
> ***The basic idea of the stun gun is to disrupt this communication system by delivering a high voltage (very fast) combined with a low amperage (low intensity) charge to temporarily disable an attacker for several minutes. The high voltage allows the charge to quickly pass through clothing and skin, When you press the stun gun against an attacker and hold the trigger, the electricity stored in the stun gun is dumped into the assailant's nervous system and the normal body signals get mixed up with noise. The muscles and brain are no longer able to communicate because the messages are no longer understood. _*The result is temporary confusion and imbalance.*_ Alternatively, stun guns can generate current with a pulse frequency that mimics the body's own electrical signals telling the attacker's muscles to do a great deal of work rapidly. But the work is not directed toward any particular movement. The rapid work cycle instantly depletes the attacker's blood sugar by converting it to lactic acid. The attacker is left unable to produce energy and *too weak to move*.***
> 
> ...





KenpoTex said:


> Brand names aside, a Taser and a Stun-gun are two different things...
> 
> A Taser shoots out probes connected to the unit by a wire, the probes embed themselves in the target and deliver the charge.  Depending on the unit, they have an effective range of 15-20 feet or so.
> 
> ...



Taser uses a patented electrical pulse or signal, which has the effect of causing all of the muscles to contract.  I'm only aware of one other company with a similar product -- and it hasn't been shown to work as reliably or effectively.  Most commercial stun guns -- and I'm almost willing to bet this one isn't anything special -- simply deliver a series of shocks.  Even the Taser's models in the contact or drive stun mode only deliver a shock; you need to spread over some muscle groups to get the Neuro Muscular Incapication effect.


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## zacthechef (Aug 23, 2008)

errr id like to say something clever...
but can i just say uzi?
are we killing or just severely hurting the person/ppl in the situation?
hahaha


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## KenpoTex (Aug 23, 2008)

zacthechef said:


> are we killing or just severely hurting the person/ppl in the situation?


 The force-option chosen is determined by the threat.



zacthechef said:


> errr id like to say something clever...


 whenever you're ready...


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