# Working out outside of the dojo



## Orion Nebula

If you haven't seen my other posts, I have returned to karate after about 15 years. I'm super overweight, but I'm keeping up in class, although not always gracefully. However, tonight's class definitely showed me that I have a long ways to go! Our sensei worked us pretty hard and at one point I felt like I was just flinging my limbs out in front of me trying to get through it. Although I did take some solace in another student stepping off the floor because she needed a breather. 

I'm training 3 nights per week at the dojo (about 1 hour and 15 minutes each), and last week I started going to a 50 minute college class 2 nights per week - although the college class is pretty slow paced and is really more about working on technique for me than fitness. While my fitness level is certainly improving through this alone, I feel like I need to 1) do more cardio so I stop getting wiped out during kihon, and 2) get stronger legs.

What do you all recommend I do? I have access to a good gym at my university and it basically has everything. I was thinking I might want to do some swimming on non-dojo days. Would it be a good idea to do some additional workouts on dojo days? Maybe some cycling or something? I'm afraid of over doing it and having no energy for karate, though.


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## jobo

Orion Nebula said:


> If you haven't seen my other posts, I have returned to karate after about 15 years. I'm super overweight, but I'm keeping up in class, although not always gracefully. However, tonight's class definitely showed me that I have a long ways to go! Our sensei worked us pretty hard and at one point I felt like I was just flinging my limbs out in front of me trying to get through it. Although I did take some solace in another student stepping off the floor because she needed a breather.
> 
> I'm training 3 nights per week at the dojo (about 1 hour and 15 minutes each), and last week I started going to a 50 minute college class 2 nights per week - although the college class is pretty slow paced and is really more about working on technique for me than fitness. While my fitness level is certainly improving through this alone, I feel like I need to 1) do more cardio so I stop getting wiped out during kihon, and 2) get stronger legs.
> 
> What do you all recommend I do? I have access to a good gym at my university and it basically has everything. I was thinking I might want to do some swimming on non-dojo days. Would it be a good idea to do some additional workouts on dojo days? Maybe some cycling or something? I'm afraid of over doing it and having no energy for karate, though.


that's a real possibility, getting a good level of fitness takes time and you have to give your body time to adjust and time to recover which is difficult if your training 5 nights a week. maybe more rest is the answer?

but focus one what you feel is your weak points, so if your struggling  for short burst cardio, do some short burst cardio, on a bike, in the pool or hill sprints or half miles flat out runs, if your legs are weak, put some weight on a bar and do some squats that will only take 10 mins of your time and should leave you enough energy to do your class, particularly  if you do this on your low intensity days


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## Bruce7

Orion Nebula said:


> If you haven't seen my other posts, I have returned to karate after about 15 years. I'm super overweight, but I'm keeping up in class, although not always gracefully. However, tonight's class definitely showed me that I have a long ways to go! Our sensei worked us pretty hard and at one point I felt like I was just flinging my limbs out in front of me trying to get through it. Although I did take some solace in another student stepping off the floor because she needed a breather.
> 
> I'm training 3 nights per week at the dojo (about 1 hour and 15 minutes each), and last week I started going to a 50 minute college class 2 nights per week - although the college class is pretty slow paced and is really more about working on technique for me than fitness. While my fitness level is certainly improving through this alone, I feel like I need to 1) do more cardio so I stop getting wiped out during kihon, and 2) get stronger legs.
> 
> What do you all recommend I do? I have access to a good gym at my university and it basically has everything. I was thinking I might want to do some swimming on non-dojo days. Would it be a good idea to do some additional workouts on dojo days? Maybe some cycling or something? I'm afraid of over doing it and having no energy for karate, though.



30 minutes of walking first thing in the morning gives you energy for the rest of the day and is easy on the body.


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## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> 30 minutes of walking first thing in the morning gives you energy for the rest of the day and is easy on the body.


hows that going to help his short burst cardio or leg strength?


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## Yokozuna514

Orion Nebula said:


> If you haven't seen my other posts, I have returned to karate after about 15 years. I'm super overweight, but I'm keeping up in class, although not always gracefully. However, tonight's class definitely showed me that I have a long ways to go! Our sensei worked us pretty hard and at one point I felt like I was just flinging my limbs out in front of me trying to get through it. Although I did take some solace in another student stepping off the floor because she needed a breather.
> 
> I'm training 3 nights per week at the dojo (about 1 hour and 15 minutes each), and last week I started going to a 50 minute college class 2 nights per week - although the college class is pretty slow paced and is really more about working on technique for me than fitness. While my fitness level is certainly improving through this alone, I feel like I need to 1) do more cardio so I stop getting wiped out during kihon, and 2) get stronger legs.
> 
> What do you all recommend I do? I have access to a good gym at my university and it basically has everything. I was thinking I might want to do some swimming on non-dojo days. Would it be a good idea to do some additional workouts on dojo days? Maybe some cycling or something? I'm afraid of over doing it and having no energy for karate, though.


I can certainly understand how you feel and have been there myself when I first started to train again.  As you are just getting back into training in general, I would recommend you give yourself and your body the opportunity to get used to the new training before adding more training on top of it so that you can keep up.  It is altogether possible to do both but depending on your age, the body recovers slower as we get older and if you do not give the body sufficient time to rest in between activities, the risk of injury increases.   If you get injured you cannot train and then you are back to square one.  

You can do low impact training on your off days to help with your general fitness and weight loss but it may not necessarily help you catch your breath in class immediately.   As in all cases, listen to your body (except when it is whining for a break, try to push through the discomfort) if you are dragging in class there is more work to be done and more time on the floor is needed.  In other words, be patient and let training and time change you as opposed to being impatient by cramming all available time into training  .   You may eventually want to do that but in the beginning, imho, it is better lengthen the horizon of our expectations on how we should be performing in class.


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## Gerry Seymour

Orion Nebula said:


> If you haven't seen my other posts, I have returned to karate after about 15 years. I'm super overweight, but I'm keeping up in class, although not always gracefully. However, tonight's class definitely showed me that I have a long ways to go! Our sensei worked us pretty hard and at one point I felt like I was just flinging my limbs out in front of me trying to get through it. Although I did take some solace in another student stepping off the floor because she needed a breather.
> 
> I'm training 3 nights per week at the dojo (about 1 hour and 15 minutes each), and last week I started going to a 50 minute college class 2 nights per week - although the college class is pretty slow paced and is really more about working on technique for me than fitness. While my fitness level is certainly improving through this alone, I feel like I need to 1) do more cardio so I stop getting wiped out during kihon, and 2) get stronger legs.
> 
> What do you all recommend I do? I have access to a good gym at my university and it basically has everything. I was thinking I might want to do some swimming on non-dojo days. Would it be a good idea to do some additional workouts on dojo days? Maybe some cycling or something? I'm afraid of over doing it and having no energy for karate, though.


It sounds like your Karate workouts are pretty intense for your current fitness level. If you want to add something, consider moderate exercise - something like going for a walk at a pace that doesn't put you out of breath. This will give some real benefit, without adding significantly to the stress your body is experiencing (and will probably help muscles not be as sore). I'd also consider some light strength training, specifically to fill gaps around your Karate training. So, maybe some squats, push-ups, etc., but nothing insane. Keep it from getting intense until the Karate classes get easier for your body to handle.


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> hows that going to help his short burst cardio or leg strength?


It's a supplement for now, to help the body get in overall shape, and avoids any real risk of over-training.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> hows that going to help his short burst cardio or leg strength?


It can help him lose weight. Once he loses weight the rest of the stuff will be easier.
And it'll put a specific time in his routine for walking, which he can later turn to swimming, squats or suicide once he's ready. I wouldn't add those in yet, because, as you said, more rest might be the answer here.


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## jobo

kempodisciple said:


> It can help him lose weight. Once he loses weight the rest of the stuff will be easier.
> And it'll put a specific time in his routine for walking, which he can later turn to swimming, squats or suicide once he's ready. I wouldn't add those in yet, because, as you said, more rest might be the answer here.


Walking for 30 mins will burn at most 150 cals, ( and that includes the 50 cal he would have burn it he just sat there) whilst that will indeed HELP him loose weight if and only if he is other wise control his cal intake, which he makes no mention of, its actual effect on weight loss will be close to neglable  and he asked about cardio not weight loss ,,


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> Walking for 30 mins will burn at most 150 cals, ( and that includes the 50 cal he would have burn it he just sat there) whilst that will indeed HELP him loose weight if and only if he is other wise control his cal intake, which he makes no mention of, its actual effect on weight loss will be close to neglable  and he asked about cardio not weight loss ,,


It's been a few years out for me since I've learned this, so someone more educated can correct me, but I'm pretty sure walking that amount can actually help with weightloss, if it's done in the morning. Moving around in the morning increases your metabolism for the rest of the day, which can cause you to burn more calories as the day goes on.


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## jobo

kempodisciple said:


> It's been a few years out for me since I've learned this, so someone more educated can correct me, but I'm pretty sure walking that amount can actually help with weightloss, if it's done in the morning. Moving around in the morning increases your metabolism for the rest of the day, which can cause you to burn more calories as the day goes on.


Yes but jumping up and down for 3 mins will have the same effect and save you 27 mins a day ( its probably more effective if its intense enough to count as hiit)

Walking is good for you in all sorts of ways, but not really for weight loss, unless you actual start walking some time/ distance , owning a dog and no car I walk every where that not more than 5 miles away, so I get through  at least 60 miles a week at a good pace, at that sort of time/ intensity I'm probably burning through at least 5000 cals a week, that keeps me super slim, so much so I've had to up my cal intake to keep my weight up by a thousand cals a day, if he walking a tenth of that then its 500 cals a week or one chocolate bar other wise known as not worth the time and effort


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> Yes but jumping up and down for 3 mins will have the same effect and save you 27 mins a day ( its probably more effective if its intense enough to count as hiit)
> 
> Walking is good for you in all sorts of ways, but not really for weight loss, unless you actual start walking some time/ distance , owning a dog and no car I walk every where that not more than 5 miles away, so I get through  at least 60 miles a week at a good pace, at that sort of time/ intensity I'm probably burning through at least 5000 cals a week, that keeps me super slim, so much so I've had to up my cal intake to keep my weight up by a thousand cals a day, if he walking a tenth of that then its 500 cals a week or one chocolate bar other wise known as not worth the time and effort


It still has that built in time of half an hour a day though in the mornings. That can be changed to something else when he's ready. And if he can use that time being slightly productive, it's better than nothing at all.


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## jobo

kempodisciple said:


> It still has that built in time of half an hour a day though in the mornings. That can be changed to something else when he's ready. And if he can use that time being slightly productive, it's better than nothing at all.


?...... he is doing 6 hours a week at class,  how is that nothing at all, he wants EXTRA  fitness to make his class easier, a gentle stroll wont do anything for that goal, NOT ONE BIT, so that no 3xtra fitness  and no weight loss,  so what benefit are you saying he will get, an 3xtra half hour in bed sounds more benifical


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> ?...... he is doing 6 hours a week at class,  how is that nothing at all, he wants EXTRA  fitness to make his class easier, a gentle stroll wont do anything for that goal, NOT ONE BIT, so that no 3xtra fitness  and no weight loss,  so what benefit are you saying he will get, an 3xtra half hour in bed sounds more benifical


The direct benefit might be minimal, but it's not nonexistent. The extra time spent moving around will (minimally) improve overall fitness. If he walks at a moderate pace (just below where it makes him out of breath), then there's a mild cardio benefit. Plus he's moving those muscles around to help loosen them up from the harder workouts at class.

You're once again taking an absolutist stance that obscures any point you might actually make.


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> The direct benefit might be minimal, but it's not nonexistent. The extra time spent moving around will (minimally) improve overall fitness. If he walks at a moderate pace (just below where it makes him out of breath), then there's a mild cardio benefit. Plus he's moving those muscles around to help loosen them up from the harder workouts at class.
> 
> You're once again taking an absolutist stance that obscures any point you might actually make.


not no existant just negligble and not in any way helping him meet his goals, which seem to be cardio bursts and leg strengh,  the most immediate way of achieving these is surprise surprise,  doing cardio burst and leg strength ening exercise ,


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> not no existant just negligble and not in any way helping him meet his goals, which seem to be cardio bursts and leg strengh,  the most immediate way of achieving these is surprise surprise,  doing cardio burst and leg strength ening exercise ,


So, overtraining be damned, eh?


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## Yokozuna514

kempodisciple said:


> It still has that built in time of half an hour a day though in the mornings. That can be changed to something else when he's ready. And if he can use that time being slightly productive, it's better than nothing at all.





jobo said:


> ?...... he is doing 6 hours a week at class,  how is that nothing at all, he wants EXTRA  fitness to make his class easier, a gentle stroll wont do anything for that goal, NOT ONE BIT, so that no 3xtra fitness  and no weight loss,  so what benefit are you saying he will get, an 3xtra half hour in bed sounds more benifical



An hour and half per week of low impact walking will not help you tip the scales compared to 3 regular classes a week.  Neither will an hour and half of extra sleep per week.   I can understand building in the extra time to exercise is better than doing nothing.  I can also understand that using the extra time to recover from the previous night's workout can also be beneficial.  

Based on what I have read about the OP, they are returning to MA from a 15 year hiatus and carrying around some extra weight.  Taking an MA class 3 times a week is a good start.  Examining eating habits would probably be more beneficial for weight loss than extra exercise at this point.   Finally, examining sleep habits is the third step to making lifestyle changes for a healthier you.  Under all circumstances, staying injury free while becoming more active is the way to go so walk or rest for the extra hour and half per week.  I don't think it will matter so much in the beginning.


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> So, overtraining be damned, eh?


well probably not, a 20 second cardio burst x3 3 times a week and 5 minets doing squats once a week will make significant improvements to his cardio burst and leg strengh, whilst not in anyway making him in danger of over training, if he's not all ready, even it will make next to no difference


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## Orion Nebula

Thanks for your responses!

@jobo - Since you brought it up, I am dieting as well and have lost some weight, although not a significant amount yet. Because I'm so big, I think it will be a while before I lose enough weight to make my life easier. 



jobo said:


> that's a real possibility, getting a good level of fitness takes time and you have to give your body time to adjust and time to recover which is difficult if your training 5 nights a week. maybe more rest is the answer?
> 
> but focus one what you feel is your weak points, so if your struggling  for short burst cardio, do some short burst cardio, on a bike, in the pool or hill sprints or half miles flat out runs, if your legs are weak, put some weight on a bar and do some squats that will only take 10 mins of your time and should leave you enough energy to do your class, particularly  if you do this on your low intensity days



Hmmm, I'm not sure short burst cardio is exactly my problem, although this probably depends on your definition of short. I don't have issues with doing a set of drills or doing sets of drills for 10 minutes. However, after 15 to 20 minutes of it without stopping for a break beyond turning around at at the wall, I get very worn down, particularly if there's lots of kicking involved. So if I could build up to doing intense (for me) cardio for 30 minutes straight, whether it be swimming, cycling, fast walking, whatever, I feel like that would help keep me going in class. 

Squats sound like a good idea - my legs are weaker than I'd like and I'm not doing deep enough stances. However, holding deep stances while might be more beneficial.



Yokazuna514 said:


> I can certainly understand how you feel and have been there myself when I first started to train again.  As you are just getting back into training in general, I would recommend you give yourself and your body the opportunity to get used to the new training before adding more training on top of it so that you can keep up.  It is altogether possible to do both but depending on your age, the body recovers slower as we get older and if you do not give the body sufficient time to rest in between activities, the risk of injury increases.   If you get injured you cannot train and then you are back to square one.
> 
> You can do low impact training on your off days to help with your general fitness and weight loss but it may not necessarily help you catch your breath in class immediately.   As in all cases, listen to your body (except when it is whining for a break, try to push through the discomfort) if you are dragging in class there is more work to be done and more time on the floor is needed.  In other words, be patient and let training and time change you as opposed to being impatient by cramming all available time into training  .   You may eventually want to do that but in the beginning, imho, it is better lengthen the horizon of our expectations on how we should be performing in class.





Yokazuna514 said:


> Based on what I have read about the OP, they are returning to MA from a 15 year hiatus and carrying around some extra weight.  Taking an MA class 3 times a week is a good start.  Examining eating habits would probably be more beneficial for weight loss than extra exercise at this point.   Finally, examining sleep habits is the third step to making lifestyle changes for a healthier you.  Under all circumstances, staying injury free while becoming more active is the way to go so walk or rest for the extra hour and half per week.  I don't think it will matter so much in the beginning.



Thanks for your input - I definitely want whatever I do extra to be low impact, which is why my mind immediately went to swimming laps. I'm already putting stress on my joints. I don't need more! However, low impact can still be intense cardio-wise, which I do think would be helpful. However, you do make a good point that I should be more patient with myself, especially since injury will hit the reset button! Perhaps I should limit anything extra to the days without training at the dojo. I'm also thinking there may be some value to doing this on the weekend - Saturdays and Sundays have been true off days, and Mondays have been a bit rougher than the rest of the week, which I assume is because I've been going into couch potato mode on the weekend. Sunday might be a good day for some swimming!



gpseymour said:


> It sounds like your Karate workouts are pretty intense for your current fitness level. If you want to add something, consider moderate exercise - something like going for a walk at a pace that doesn't put you out of breath. This will give some real benefit, without adding significantly to the stress your body is experiencing (and will probably help muscles not be as sore). I'd also consider some light strength training, specifically to fill gaps around your Karate training. So, maybe some squats, push-ups, etc., but nothing insane. Keep it from getting intense until the Karate classes get easier for your body to handle.



I actually do like this suggestion that you and @Bruce7 made. One of my sensei also suggested walking more. However, I do have a finite amount of time that I can devote to exercise and I hate treadmills. Walking outside is an option, but it's winter here in western Oregon, which means rain, rain, and more rain. When the weather improves, weekend hiking will become an option, too.


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## Gerry Seymour

Orion Nebula said:


> Thanks for your responses!
> 
> @jobo - Since you brought it up, I am dieting as well and have lost some weight, although not a significant amount yet. Because I'm so big, I think it will be a while before I lose enough weight to make my life easier.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, I'm not sure short burst cardio is exactly my problem, although this probably depends on your definition of short. I don't have issues with doing a set of drills or doing sets of drills for 10 minutes. However, after 15 to 20 minutes of it without stopping for a break beyond turning around at at the wall, I get very worn down, particularly if there's lots of kicking involved. So if I could build up to doing intense (for me) cardio for 30 minutes straight, whether it be swimming, cycling, fast walking, whatever, I feel like that would help keep me going in class.
> 
> Squats sound like a good idea - my legs are weaker than I'd like and I'm not doing deep enough stances. However, holding deep stances while might be more beneficial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your input - I definitely want whatever I do extra to be low impact, which is why my mind immediately went to swimming laps. I'm already putting stress on my joints. I don't need more! However, low impact can still be intense cardio-wise, which I do think would be helpful. However, you do make a good point that I should be more patient with myself, especially since injury will hit the reset button! Perhaps I should limit anything extra to the days without training at the dojo. I'm also thinking there may be some value to doing this on the weekend - Saturdays and Sundays have been true off days, and Mondays have been a bit rougher than the rest of the week, which I assume is because I've been going into couch potato mode on the weekend. Sunday might be a good day for some swimming!
> 
> 
> 
> I actually do like this suggestion that you and @Bruce7 made. One of my sensei also suggested walking more. However, I do have a finite amount of time that I can devote to exercise and I hate treadmills. Walking outside is an option, but it's winter here in western Oregon, which means rain, rain, and more rain. When the weather improves, weekend hiking will become an option, too.


Those hikes would be a good addition, assuming there's some hills and uneven terrain. The hills will help develop leg strength, and the uneven terrain is good for balance and stability muscles.

But yeah, if time and weather make that less useful, find an analog of some sort. The idea is to add some light cardio work (about as intense as a brisk walk) first. When that's easy (which might be immediately, or a few weeks into it), step it up. The shorter the time you can commit, the more intensity you want to bring, but don't go insane on it right away (obviously). You're already getting an intense (for you) workout 3 times a week (I think I got that right).

Here are some other options, which might also not take as much time (and I won't suggest treadmills - I'd personally rather be dragged behind a slow-moving truck). Rowing machines combine strength and cardio, to some extent. If you can do the stationary bikes, perhaps some moderate hill work on those. Or just put together a strength-oriented routine you can do without stopping, or with very short rest intervals. My favorite for the latter is kettlebell workouts - you can work with two kettlebells and do a whole-body workout in under 20 minutes. If you do it with only brief (10-20 second) breaks between exercises, it serves a bit as cardio, too.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> It's a supplement for now, to help the body get in overall shape, and avoids any real risk of over-training.



Three nights a week isnt over training. 

He can physically do more and get better results more quickly if he wants. The quicker he dumps the weight the easier it would be.


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## dvcochran

kempodisciple said:


> It's been a few years out for me since I've learned this, so someone more educated can correct me, but I'm pretty sure walking that amount can actually help with weightloss, if it's done in the morning. Moving around in the morning increases your metabolism for the rest of the day, which can cause you to burn more calories as the day goes on.


That is correct. Many, many studies back this up.


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## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> That is correct. Many, many studies back this up.



I would have thought weights.


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## dvcochran

Orion Nebula said:


> If you haven't seen my other posts, I have returned to karate after about 15 years. I'm super overweight, but I'm keeping up in class, although not always gracefully. However, tonight's class definitely showed me that I have a long ways to go! Our sensei worked us pretty hard and at one point I felt like I was just flinging my limbs out in front of me trying to get through it. Although I did take some solace in another student stepping off the floor because she needed a breather.



It says a lot that after a tough class you are aware that there is work to be done. Some would just be happy with making it back to the couch.



Orion Nebula said:


> I'm training 3 nights per week at the dojo (about 1 hour and 15 minutes each), and last week I started going to a 50 minute college class 2 nights per week - although the college class is pretty slow paced and is really more about working on technique for me than fitness. While my fitness level is certainly improving through this alone, I feel like I need to 1) do more cardio so I stop getting wiped out during kihon, and 2) get stronger legs.



So you are working out 5 nights/week? This is a full plate for most people who work a job of any kind. How are you handling this new level of working out with the rest of your lifestyle? If all is good, then you may be able to add something to the schedule. But I caution you with burnout. It is very real and it can really crash a good workout regimen. I have never seen you so I am doing a generous amount of guessing. You say you are very overweight. The way I hear that, working out 3-5 days/week is a very good pace. Physical improvement is a marathon not a sprint. It is different for everyone but it will take at least a few months to see appreciable gains in endurance and in weight loss. Probably longer. I don't want this to sound like a downer, just the opposite. You should feel very good that you are working out at a very healthy pace. It just takes time and commitment.



Orion Nebula said:


> What do you all recommend I do? I have access to a good gym at my university and it basically has everything. I was thinking I might want to do some swimming on non-dojo days. Would it be a good idea to do some additional workouts on dojo days? Maybe some cycling or something? I'm afraid of over doing it and having no energy for karate, though.



If you have a good set of stairs, say 10-20 steps that have a return ramp, I suggest walking the steps and returning back down the ramp to save your knees. This WILL get you in a cardio phase if done at a brisk pace, and if convenient it is easier and quicker than the pool. You did mention that you gravitate back to the couch on the weekends. If the pool is convenient, it would be a great weekend workout, and something different so maybe it would keep things fresh.
I am excited to hear how things go. Keep in touch.


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## dvcochran

As others have said, walking in the mornings is a very good idea. It engrains a really good lifestyle habit. No offense meant but your weight alone should accelerate building leg strength with walking. If you want to push more and save your knees, you can add ankle weights or even better place weight just above or below the knee.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> I would have thought weights.


From what I remember, walking helps boost your metabolism for the day more. Weights will increase your muscle size, which will increase your overall metabolism. The better option would be to either walk or do cardio in the morning, followed by weights/musclebuilding in the afternoon, and technical training for your sport in the evening, if your goal is to improve at a sport and get in shape. That was the general rule I learned for people from my college trainers, that they stick to for most sports when designing workout programs. YMMV


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## Bill Mattocks

Jump rope. Best training there is. Balance, timing, coordination, speed, aerobic, low impact, builds spring in your step, and you can't overtrain. You'll stop when you begin to suck at it. If you suck from day one, you'll get better at about the right pace for cv heath. Dare anyone to say otherwise.


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## jobo

Orion Nebula said:


> Thanks for your responses!
> 
> @jobo - Since you brought it up, I am dieting as well and have lost some weight, although not a significant amount yet. Because I'm so big, I think it will be a while before I lose enough weight to make my life easier.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, I'm not sure short burst cardio is exactly my problem, although this probably depends on your definition of short. I don't have issues with doing a set of drills or doing sets of drills for 10 minutes. However, after 15 to 20 minutes of it without stopping for a break beyond turning around at at the wall, I get very worn down, particularly if there's lots of kicking involved. So if I could build up to doing intense (for me) cardio for 30 minutes straight, whether it be swimming, cycling, fast walking, whatever, I feel like that would help keep me going in class.
> 
> Squats sound like a good idea - my legs are weaker than I'd like and I'm not doing deep enough stances. However, holding deep stances while might be more beneficial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your input - I definitely want whatever I do extra to be low impact, which is why my mind immediately went to swimming laps. I'm already putting stress on my joints. I don't need more! However, low impact can still be intense cardio-wise, which I do think would be helpful. However, you do make a good point that I should be more patient with myself, especially since injury will hit the reset button! Perhaps I should limit anything extra to the days without training at the dojo. I'm also thinking there may be some value to doing this on the weekend - Saturdays and Sundays have been true off days, and Mondays have been a bit rougher than the rest of the week, which I assume is because I've been going into couch potato mode on the weekend. Sunday might be a good day for some swimming!
> 
> 
> 
> I actually do like this suggestion that you and @Bruce7 made. One of my sensei also suggested walking more. However, I do have a finite amount of time that I can devote to exercise and I hate treadmills. Walking outside is an option, but it's winter here in western Oregon, which means rain, rain, and more rain. When the weather improves, weekend hiking will become an option, too.


if you want to be able to do 15 mins of moderate activity with out feeling it, do five mins of brutal activity, be that running or swimming or kettlebells or what ever, as long as your working above 80% and reach failure, it has an enormous impact on your longevity, not that youl be able to run marathon,, but a dojo work out wont even register on your scale of effort


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Three nights a week isnt over training.
> 
> He can physically do more and get better results more quickly if he wants. The quicker he dumps the weight the easier it would be.


Frequency doesn’t determine what is it is not overtraining- mostly, soreness does. Hobo appears to be suggesting intense exercise as a starting point, which is probably counter-productive until a foundation of fitness is established. I’m just suggesting to the OP that he start easy (between his MA classes) and ramp it up as his body allows, rather than pushing too hard and setting himself back.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I would have thought weights.


Weights do have more impact, insofar as the exercise increases lean muscle. The actual effect is pretty small in the short term, but more significant over longer periods.


----------



## jobo

Bill Mattocks said:


> Jump rope. Best training there is. Balance, timing, coordination, speed, aerobic, low impact, builds spring in your step, and you can't overtrain. You'll stop when you begin to suck at it. If you suck from day one, you'll get better at about the right pace for cv heath. Dare anyone to say otherwise.


you could say exactly the same for playing tag


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Frequency doesn’t determine what is it is not overtraining- mostly, soreness does. Hobo appears to be suggesting intense exercise as a starting point, which is probably counter-productive until a foundation of fitness is established. I’m just suggesting to the OP that he start easy (between his MA classes) and ramp it up as his body allows, rather than pushing too hard and setting himself back.


intense is very necessary to make progress, it's just want counts as intense changes as he gets fitter, running above 80% is a personal thing, when he is fitter 80% represents a lot more work done


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> Frequency doesn’t determine what is it is not overtraining- mostly, soreness does. Hobo appears to be suggesting intense exercise as a starting point, which is probably counter-productive until a foundation of fitness is established. I’m just suggesting to the OP that he start easy (between his MA classes) and ramp it up as his body allows, rather than pushing too hard and setting himself back.


I think Hobo is speaking from the ignorance of youth.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Frequency doesn’t determine what is it is not overtraining- mostly, soreness does. Hobo appears to be suggesting intense exercise as a starting point, which is probably counter-productive until a foundation of fitness is established. I’m just suggesting to the OP that he start easy (between his MA classes) and ramp it up as his body allows, rather than pushing too hard and setting himself back.



Not really. The fitter he gets faster the easier it will be. 

Not saying it won't suck. But it is doable. He is going to be sore.


----------



## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> I think Hobo is speaking from the ignorance of youth.



No we recently put a 50 plus guy through this and got him in his first fight.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Orion Nebula said:


> What do you all recommend I do?


- For group training, You may consider to form a fighting club.
- For self training, you can drill 4 different combos E, S, W, N and repeat 20 times daily. After 1 week, you may change into another 4 combos. This way you will always have 4 combos handy in case you have to use it.

For example:

1. E - roundhouse kick, side kick, back kick, spin back fist.
2. S - front kick, jab, cross, hook, hook.
3. W - hip throw, single leg.
4. N - elbow lock, shoulder lock.


----------



## Orion Nebula

kempodisciple said:


> It's been a few years out for me since I've learned this, so someone more educated can correct me, but I'm pretty sure walking that amount can actually help with weightloss, if it's done in the morning. Moving around in the morning increases your metabolism for the rest of the day, which can cause you to burn more calories as the day goes on.





dvcochran said:


> As others have said, walking in the mornings is a very good idea. It engrains a really good lifestyle habit. No offense meant but your weight alone should accelerate building leg strength with walking. If you want to push more and save your knees, you can add ankle weights or even better place weight just above or below the knee.



I'm not going to lie - while I am a fan of walking, I am not a fan of mornings and I don't think I could ever summon the motivation to immediately go for walk right after waking up. I wonder if there is a window of time for when it is effective. I actually do get about a 15 minute walk in on my way to the office, because I park so far away, although it is a leisurely walk. The only problem with brisk walking is that I'm prone to pain in the side of my lower leg when I walk fast (probably the peroneal tendons). Proper footwear has helped this and I have a stretch that helps, too, but if I walk too long at a brisk pace the pain becomes unbearable. However, at a slow pace I can walk for miles on end (at least on a level grade, anyway).



gpseymour said:


> Those hikes would be a good addition, assuming there's some hills and uneven terrain. The hills will help develop leg strength, and the uneven terrain is good for balance and stability muscles.
> 
> But yeah, if time and weather make that less useful, find an analog of some sort. The idea is to add some light cardio work (about as intense as a brisk walk) first. When that's easy (which might be immediately, or a few weeks into it), step it up. The shorter the time you can commit, the more intensity you want to bring, but don't go insane on it right away (obviously). You're already getting an intense (for you) workout 3 times a week (I think I got that right).
> 
> Here are some other options, which might also not take as much time (and I won't suggest treadmills - I'd personally rather be dragged behind a slow-moving truck). Rowing machines combine strength and cardio, to some extent. If you can do the stationary bikes, perhaps some moderate hill work on those. Or just put together a strength-oriented routine you can do without stopping, or with very short rest intervals. My favorite for the latter is kettlebell workouts - you can work with two kettlebells and do a whole-body workout in under 20 minutes. If you do it with only brief (10-20 second) breaks between exercises, it serves a bit as cardio, too.



Believe me, there are hills. The area I live in is as flat as a pancake, but once you leave the valley, you are in mountain country. One of my fitness goals is to be able to hike to the top of one of our tallest peaks, which is somewhere over 10,000 feet. The trail is only 6 miles to the top from the nearest trailhead, but it's steep and once you hit about 5,000 feet, it gets much harder to breathe. I remember walking up a tiny hill at Crater Lake and it felt like I had just walked up several flights of stairs.

I actually do enjoy stationary bikes! I can get going at a much higher intensity than walking because I'm not limited by leg pain. Although in the past I've solved this on the treadmill by walking more slowly at a high incline. But I really do hate treadmills. I'll look into the kettlebells - I've heard people talk about them, but I have no idea what you do with them. It may be something I'd like.



dvcochran said:


> It says a lot that after a tough class you are aware that there is work to be done. Some would just be happy with making it back to the couch.
> 
> So you are working out 5 nights/week? This is a full plate for most people who work a job of any kind. How are you handling this new level of working out with the rest of your lifestyle? If all is good, then you may be able to add something to the schedule. But I caution you with burnout. It is very real and it can really crash a good workout regimen. I have never seen you so I am doing a generous amount of guessing. You say you are very overweight. The way I hear that, working out 3-5 days/week is a very good pace. Physical improvement is a marathon not a sprint. It is different for everyone but it will take at least a few months to see appreciable gains in endurance and in weight loss. Probably longer. I don't want this to sound like a downer, just the opposite. You should feel very good that you are working out at a very healthy pace. It just takes time and commitment.
> 
> If you have a good set of stairs, say 10-20 steps that have a return ramp, I suggest walking the steps and returning back down the ramp to save your knees. This WILL get you in a cardio phase if done at a brisk pace, and if convenient it is easier and quicker than the pool. You did mention that you gravitate back to the couch on the weekends. If the pool is convenient, it would be a great weekend workout, and something different so maybe it would keep things fresh.
> I am excited to hear how things go. Keep in touch.



Yes, I am working out 5 nights per week, but two of those nights are on the light side. After a night at the dojo, I come home soaked in sweat. The college class, on the other hand, barely makes me perspire, but it depends on what we're doing. I don't have a regular 9 - 5 job at the moment. I'm in graduate school and a lot of my time is spent at the computer and it's actually quite flexible since I've finished almost all of my coursework. So it wouldn't be hard to fit in some extra workouts, but naturally I don't have time to add in hours upon hours of exercise. But it's working fine for me right now, although I have had some sore days and I have taken a day off when I needed it. Oh, and I am indeed very overweight. If I lost half of my body weight, I would still be considered overweight on a BMI chart (although only by a few pounds and the BMI can go pound sand anyway).

I'm not sure if there are steps with a ramp anywhere, although there are stepping machines I think. Of course, there are buildings with 5 or 6 floors that I could walk to the top and take the elevator back down. That sounds miserable, though. At least swimming in enjoyable! The pool is actually less convenient on the weekends, though.



jobo said:


> if you want to be able to do 15 mins of moderate activity with out feeling it, do five mins of brutal activity, be that running or swimming or kettlebells or what ever, as long as your working above 80% and reach failure, it has an enormous impact on your longevity, not that youl be able to run marathon,, but a dojo work out wont even register on your scale of effort



I wouldn't say I want to do 15 minutes of moderate activity without feeling it, but I get what you're saying. I'm actually having trouble visualizing something brutal. Running comes to mind, but I know I can't do that for 5 minutes. Maybe a fast front crawl in the pool? I've read that interval training is also good for improving fitness. 5 minutes of intense activity followed by a longer period of lighter activity and so on. It might be helpful to apply that here.



gpseymour said:


> Frequency doesn’t determine what is it is not overtraining- mostly, soreness does. Hobo appears to be suggesting intense exercise as a starting point, which is probably counter-productive until a foundation of fitness is established. I’m just suggesting to the OP that he start easy (between his MA classes) and ramp it up as his body allows, rather than pushing too hard and setting himself back.





jobo said:


> intense is very necessary to make progress, it's just want counts as intense changes as he gets fitter, running above 80% is a personal thing, when he is fitter 80% represents a lot more work done



I think you are both suggesting something similar, but gpseymour is suggesting I start off on a lighter note first to make sure I don't burn out and then ramp it up. More of an exploratory exercise in finding what's easy before getting more intense, which I think is a wise suggestion.


----------



## Gweilo

As you have probably read, there is lots of advice and opinions available to you, the walking and the swimming would be great for now, but do take rest days, and listen to your own body, it is easy to go over the top when we feel real benefit after a short return to some form of exercise,  keep it real, and push yourself in stages.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Not really. The fitter he gets faster the easier it will be.
> 
> Not saying it won't suck. But it is doable. He is going to be sore.


The research I've seen suggests that being more sore makes the path to fitness longer, especially if it includes injury from starting up too hard, too fast.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Orion Nebula said:


> I'm not going to lie - while I am a fan of walking, I am not a fan of mornings and I don't think I could ever summon the motivation to immediately go for walk right after waking up. I wonder if there is a window of time for when it is effective. I actually do get about a 15 minute walk in on my way to the office, because I park so far away, although it is a leisurely walk. The only problem with brisk walking is that I'm prone to pain in the side of my lower leg when I walk fast (probably the peroneal tendons). Proper footwear has helped this and I have a stretch that helps, too, but if I walk too long at a brisk pace the pain becomes unbearable. However, at a slow pace I can walk for miles on end (at least on a level grade, anyway).
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me, there are hills. The area I live in is as flat as a pancake, but once you leave the valley, you are in mountain country. One of my fitness goals is to be able to hike to the top of one of our tallest peaks, which is somewhere over 10,000 feet. The trail is only 6 miles to the top from the nearest trailhead, but it's steep and once you hit about 5,000 feet, it gets much harder to breathe. I remember walking up a tiny hill at Crater Lake and it felt like I had just walked up several flights of stairs.
> 
> I actually do enjoy stationary bikes! I can get going at a much higher intensity than walking because I'm not limited by leg pain. Although in the past I've solved this on the treadmill by walking more slowly at a high incline. But I really do hate treadmills. I'll look into the kettlebells - I've heard people talk about them, but I have no idea what you do with them. It may be something I'd like.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am working out 5 nights per week, but two of those nights are on the light side. After a night at the dojo, I come home soaked in sweat. The college class, on the other hand, barely makes me perspire, but it depends on what we're doing. I don't have a regular 9 - 5 job at the moment. I'm in graduate school and a lot of my time is spent at the computer and it's actually quite flexible since I've finished almost all of my coursework. So it wouldn't be hard to fit in some extra workouts, but naturally I don't have time to add in hours upon hours of exercise. But it's working fine for me right now, although I have had some sore days and I have taken a day off when I needed it. Oh, and I am indeed very overweight. If I lost half of my body weight, I would still be considered overweight on a BMI chart (although only by a few pounds and the BMI can go pound sand anyway).
> 
> I'm not sure if there are steps with a ramp anywhere, although there are stepping machines I think. Of course, there are buildings with 5 or 6 floors that I could walk to the top and take the elevator back down. That sounds miserable, though. At least swimming in enjoyable! The pool is actually less convenient on the weekends, though.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say I want to do 15 minutes of moderate activity without feeling it, but I get what you're saying. I'm actually having trouble visualizing something brutal. Running comes to mind, but I know I can't do that for 5 minutes. Maybe a fast front crawl in the pool? I've read that interval training is also good for improving fitness. 5 minutes of intense activity followed by a longer period of lighter activity and so on. It might be helpful to apply that here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are both suggesting something similar, but gpseymour is suggesting I start off on a lighter note first to make sure I don't burn out and then ramp it up. More of an exploratory exercise in finding what's easy before getting more intense, which I think is a wise suggestion.


You've clearly given this some good thought. You're listening to your body (that pain in the leg - by the way, make sure you've talked to a doctor about that, just to get advice if it keeps up) and getting a fair amount of exercise. The 15 minute walk to/from your car is a good thing, even when you have to take it easy. That stuff does add up for general health. I think you're pretty much on the right track with what you're doing and thinking of adding.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

The hard part of exercise comes up front, when you form the habit. That's the price of admission. When the habit is formed you will know it because you'll want to wake up and exercise and miss it if you don't.

It's an easy habit to break though, and then you have to start over.

Because the cost comes up front, most people don't, because they avoid pain, commitment, dedication, and they lack perseverance. Get busy living or start digging the hole they'll pitch you in when you croak. Those are your choices.


----------



## Bruce7

jobo said:


> Yes but jumping up and down for 3 mins will have the same effect and save you 27 mins a day ( its probably more effective if its intense enough to count as hiit)
> 
> Walking is good for you in all sorts of ways, but not really for weight loss, unless you actual start walking some time/ distance , owning a dog and no car I walk every where that not more than 5 miles away, so I get through  at least 60 miles a week at a good pace, at that sort of time/ intensity I'm probably burning through at least 5000 cals a week, that keeps me super slim, so much so I've had to up my cal intake to keep my weight up by a thousand cals a day, if he walking a tenth of that then its 500 cals a week or one chocolate bar other wise known as not worth the time and effort



Kempodisciple statement is true
Moving around in the morning increases your metabolism for the rest of the day, which can cause you to burn more calories as the day goes on.

It is a little more complicated than what I am describing, but I think you will get the idea. 
Another advance of walking is your body burns carbohydrates and fats at the* same rate.* The faster you run the *more *carbohydrates are burn and* fewer* fats, the body does not have time to break down the fats when high energy levels are needed.
If you burn up a lot of carbohydrates, it will take time for your body to regain the carbohydrates from digestion or you can eat a simple carbohydrates which negates the work you put in to lose weight. 

Walking clears the mind and helps you can focus.

If you are over weight high impact work outs are more likely to cause injure setting you back.

IMO As weight is lost and the body becomes used to physical activities, intensity maybe be increased.


----------



## dvcochran

Orion Nebula said:


> I'm not going to lie - while I am a fan of walking, I am not a fan of mornings and I don't think I could ever summon the motivation to immediately go for walk right after waking up. I wonder if there is a window of time for when it is effective. I actually do get about a 15 minute walk in on my way to the office, because I park so far away, although it is a leisurely walk. The only problem with brisk walking is that I'm prone to pain in the side of my lower leg when I walk fast (probably the peroneal tendons). Proper footwear has helped this and I have a stretch that helps, too, but if I walk too long at a brisk pace the pain becomes unbearable. However, at a slow pace I can walk for miles on end (at least on a level grade, anyway).


I get up pretty early every morning. Since it is cold and dark I defer to either a treadmill or elliptical. My normal routine is get up, make coffee, make breakfast (sometimes this is just opening a package of Belvita), eat and review my overnight work emails. This takes an hour. Then I do my cardio. Then back to work. So, like you, I cannot/do not relish the idea of crawling out of bed to immediately start walking down my street. It is all about the habits you develop.



Orion Nebula said:


> Believe me, there are hills. The area I live in is as flat as a pancake, but once you leave the valley, you are in mountain country. One of my fitness goals is to be able to hike to the top of one of our tallest peaks, which is somewhere over 10,000 feet. The trail is only 6 miles to the top from the nearest trailhead, but it's steep and once you hit about 5,000 feet, it gets much harder to breathe. I remember walking up a tiny hill at Crater Lake and it felt like I had just walked up several flights of stairs.
> 
> I actually do enjoy stationary bikes! I can get going at a much higher intensity than walking because I'm not limited by leg pain. Although in the past I've solved this on the treadmill by walking more slowly at a high incline. But I really do hate treadmills. I'll look into the kettlebells - I've heard people talk about them, but I have no idea what you do with them. It may be something I'd like.
> 
> I'm not sure if there are steps with a ramp anywhere, although there are stepping machines I think. Of course, there are buildings with 5 or 6 floors that I could walk to the top and take the elevator back down. That sounds miserable, though. At least swimming in enjoyable! The pool is actually less convenient on the weekends, though.



Since stairs are not an option but hills are, you may be able to use the hills in the same fashion. Briskly walking steeper uphill sets for a short distance (50-100 feet) them walking back down and repeating 20 times would be a good cardio exercise that would target the legs. It will work the calves much more than steps but that is not a bad thing.



Orion Nebula said:


> Yes, I am working out 5 nights per week, but two of those nights are on the light side. After a night at the dojo, I come home soaked in sweat. The college class, on the other hand, barely makes me perspire, but it depends on what we're doing. I don't have a regular 9 - 5 job at the moment. I'm in graduate school and a lot of my time is spent at the computer and it's actually quite flexible since I've finished almost all of my coursework. So it wouldn't be hard to fit in some extra workouts, but naturally I don't have time to add in hours upon hours of exercise. But it's working fine for me right now, although I have had some sore days and I have taken a day off when I needed it. Oh, and I am indeed very overweight. If I lost half of my body weight, I would still be considered overweight on a BMI chart (although only by a few pounds and the BMI can go pound sand anyway).
> 
> I wouldn't say I want to do 15 minutes of moderate activity without feeling it, but I get what you're saying. I'm actually having trouble visualizing something brutal. Running comes to mind, but I know I can't do that for 5 minutes. Maybe a fast front crawl in the pool? I've read that interval training is also good for improving fitness. 5 minutes of intense activity followed by a longer period of lighter activity and so on. It might be helpful to apply that here.​



It sounds like you are in an ideal scenario as far available exercise environment and available equipment. Are there "trainers" available at your school that can help you make a weight room workout program? Sounds like a pool is very much a convenience so take advantage of it.

I suggest finding something you can do on weekends to pull you away from the couch. Remember, you are only talking a couple hours out of the day. Engraining the good habits are vital. Not always easy but vital to your success. Is it possible to augment your "light" workouts at school with some of the cardio elements from your other classes? Consolidation of efforts is a huge timesaver.
Keep in touch.


----------



## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> No we recently put a 50 plus guy through this and got him in his first fight.


I'm 55. I have seen good improvement in the last year but am definitely not ready to get back in the ring. I did ok in a 2 minute match last September but it was pretty much a snoozer match. 
It is motivating to hear stories like this. Older people with fewer injuries have no reason to stay healthier. It is just harder but that is a crappy excuse.


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> Kempodisciple statement is true
> Moving around in the morning increases your metabolism for the rest of the day, which can cause you to burn more calories as the day goes on.
> 
> It is a little more complicated than what I am describing, but I think you will get the idea.
> Another advance of walking is your body burns carbohydrates and fats at the* same rate.* The faster you run the *more *carbohydrates are burn and* fewer* fats, the body does not have time to break down the fats when high energy levels are needed.
> If you burn up a lot of carbohydrates, it will take time for your body to regain the carbohydrates from digestion or you can eat a simple carbohydrates which negates the work you put in to lose weight.
> 
> Walking clears the mind and helps you can focus.
> 
> If you are over weight high impact work outs are more likely to cause injure setting you back.
> 
> IMO As weight is lost and the body becomes used to physical activities, intensity maybe be increased.


I didn't say it wasn't true, just  over simplistic,  walking does indeed burn fat, just not very much of it, which I elaborated on in one of my posts,  nor is it a simple carbs or fat cut of point, the " fat burning zone" is about 70% of max heart rate and is then dependent on how long you maintain that output,  half an hour is no where near as good as two hours,  so even if you manage to get your heart up to 70% walking, half an hour is of neglable benifit in cals consumed.

  A pound if fat equals a thousand cals, power walking will burn at most 300 cals per hour a fair% of which will be carbs,,  so you need to wip along at /5 miles per hour for 3 hours to shift 1000 cals,  any slower and the amount burn drops dramiticaly a half hour leisurely  stroll wont get your heart up enough and youl burn about 20 cals over rest. Have you ever tried walking at 5 miles an hour? For even half an hour.. It's a lot easier to run

It's one of lifes unfairness that only very fit people can exercise long a d hard enough to burn enough cals to make any dent in there fat store, which is why fat unfit people need to diet or they will never lose weight

AND the benefits of hiit for fat burning long after you've stop exercising are well documented, GOOGLE AND burning carbs stops more weight acumulating so it helps no end if you are dieting


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> The research I've seen suggests that being more sore makes the path to fitness longer, especially if it includes injury from starting up too hard, too fast.



Which research is that?

Why is he injuring himself?


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> I didn't say it wasn't true, just  over simplistic,  walking does indeed burn fat, just not very much of it, which I elaborated on in one of my posts,  nor is it a simple carbs or fat cut of point, the " fat burning zone" is about 70% of max heart rate and is then dependent on how long you maintain that output,  half an hour is no where near as good as two hours,  so even if you manage to get your heart up to 70% walking, half an hour is of neglable benifit in cals consumed.
> 
> A pound if fat equals a thousand cals, power walking will burn at most 300 cals per hour a fair% of which will be carbs,,  so you need to wip along at /5 miles per hour for 3 hours to shift 1000 cals,  any slower and the amount burn drops dramiticaly a half hour leisurely  stroll wont get your heart up enough and youl burn about 20 cals over rest. Have you ever tried walking at 5 miles an hour? For even half an hour.. It's a lot easier to run
> 
> It's one of lifes unfairness that only very fit people can exercise long a d hard enough to burn enough cals to make any dent in there fat store, which is why fat unfit people need to diet or they will never lose weight
> 
> AND the benefits of hiit for fat burning long after you've stop exercising are well documented, GOOGLE AND burning carbs stops more weight acumulating so it helps no end if you are dieting



And any sort of plyometric work will help those kicks.


----------



## Headhunter

The trick is not treating it like a job. Do what you want to do. You want to go running then go running if you don't then don't. Training isn't a job it's a hobby and it has to be something you like if not you'll hate it then you'll stop.


----------



## Orion Nebula

Last night, I had a really interesting class. The school is small and some of the students are pretty inconsistent with coming in. It's also the time of year for sickness. So I was the only student last night. It was great! I've never had one on one training before like that.

One of the conclusions we came to was that part of the reason I get tired fast is that I don't breathe right. For example, there was a long combo that I was struggling with and I was so fixated on trying to do it right and so tense that I was holding my breath through the whole set of moves. So in addition to improving fitness, I need to relax and little and breathe! 



Bruce7 said:


> It is a little more complicated than what I am describing, but I think you will get the idea.
> Another advance of walking is your body burns carbohydrates and fats at the* same rate.* The faster you run the *more *carbohydrates are burn and* fewer* fats, the body does not have time to break down the fats when high energy levels are needed.
> If you burn up a lot of carbohydrates, it will take time for your body to regain the carbohydrates from digestion or you can eat a simple carbohydrates which negates the work you put in to lose weight.



I also read somewhere years ago that you burn roughly the same calories walking as you do running if you only consider distance. So if I were to run 3 miles in 20 minutes or walk it in 60, I would end up burning similar calories, one just takes longer. So from a weight loss POV, walking is just as good as running, although this could all be hogwash since I don't even remember where I read it. Plus as you describe it as being more complicated in terms of where the calories are coming from.



dvcochran said:


> It sounds like you are in an ideal scenario as far available exercise environment and available equipment. Are there "trainers" available at your school that can help you make a weight room workout program? Sounds like a pool is very much a convenience so take advantage of it.
> 
> I suggest finding something you can do on weekends to pull you away from the couch. Remember, you are only talking a couple hours out of the day. Engraining the good habits are vital. Not always easy but vital to your success. Is it possible to augment your "light" workouts at school with some of the cardio elements from your other classes? Consolidation of efforts is a huge timesaver.
> Keep in touch.



We do have trainers available. I've looked into it before and they charge a pretty low fee for their services. The only downside is that the weight rooms are always packed and a lot of people complain that they spend more time waiting for a machine than actually working out. I'm sure this is dependent on time of day, though. The pool, on the other hand, has low use exactly when I like to go there during the week. They also have kickboards and other things to allow work on just the legs or arms.

I'll find something for the weekend. Plus, the heart of the rainy season is almost over. The rain cuts back in March and I'll be able to enjoy the outdoors more. As for intensifying the light college classes, I'm not sure. In some activities, yes, but in some, no. I have so far been placed with beginners with the expectation that I can help them out. For example, one day I was asked to lead the group through kata and observe and correct students doing moves incorrectly. So I spent more time slowly modeling blocks and strikes than getting a workout, which is valuable but not exactly helping me improve my fitness level. But another day was spent mostly sparring and I did get a good workout.



Headhunter said:


> The trick is not treating it like a job. Do what you want to do. You want to go running then go running if you don't then don't. Training isn't a job it's a hobby and it has to be something you like if not you'll hate it then you'll stop.



Always good advice! I actually would like to try running, but I think it would be wise to slim down first. Trail running really appeals to me. But for now, the two physical activities that I really enjoy are karate (of course) and swimming.  I also like cycling (on a real bicycle), but I have a wrist and hand problem when riding too long.  I bought special gloves to keep my hands from going numb, but my wrists get very sore from the weight on them. Part of this is probably my bike setup - I might trying raising my handlebars.


----------



## Yokozuna514

Orion Nebula said:


> One of the conclusions we came to was that part of the reason I get tired fast is that I don't breathe right. For example, there was a long combo that I was struggling with and I was so fixated on trying to do it right and so tense that I was holding my breath through the whole set of moves. So in addition to improving fitness, I need to relax and little and breathe!



This is actually easier said than done for a lot of people.  We tend to hold our breath as it gives us a feeling that we are able to move more securely and greater power however it rather inefficient to move this way as you have no doubt found out.   There are several things you can do to assist with breathing and relaxation when moving.   The first thing you can do is to release a little air every time you complete a movement/strike/block.  The best example I can think of is when a boxer lets out air every time he hits a bag.  The second thing you can do is relax your shoulders.  I suspect they are pretty tense as you are moving and holding your breath.  Consciously relaxing the shoulders will help you relax your entire body.  Stay relaxed in between each movement and only tense at the moment of impact (ie:  punch/kick or block).  Good luck.


----------



## _Simon_

Orion Nebula said:


> One of the conclusions we came to was that part of the reason I get tired fast is that I don't breathe right. For example, there was a long combo that I was struggling with and I was so fixated on trying to do it right and so tense that I was holding my breath through the whole set of moves. So in addition to improving fitness, I need to relax and little and breathe!



Ah yep, I can definitely relate to this. I've found that at home if I train I used to be fine, could power through everything, but when it came to training in class, I would get so much more exhausted, much quicker. It's been quite a process learning to train with less tension (still learning!), but yes you'll find that training with excess tension and shallow breaths will fatigue you alot quicker.

What @Yokazuna514 said was great, especially the shoulders, so just be more mindful that you're exhaling with the techniques, and very importantly breathing deep down into your lower stomach as opposed to chest breathing.

It's only natural to be a bit tense when learning new things, as you're trying to get it perfect, but as you learn it and become more comfortable, you can work on consciously relaxing more


----------



## jobo

Orion Nebula said:


> Last night, I had a really interesting class. The school is small and some of the students are pretty inconsistent with coming in. It's also the time of year for sickness. So I was the only student last night. It was great! I've never had one on one training before like that.
> 
> One of the conclusions we came to was that part of the reason I get tired fast is that I don't breathe right. For example, there was a long combo that I was struggling with and I was so fixated on trying to do it right and so tense that I was holding my breath through the whole set of moves. So in addition to improving fitness, I need to relax and little and breathe!
> 
> 
> 
> I also read somewhere years ago that you burn roughly the same calories walking as you do running if you only consider distance. So if I were to run 3 miles in 20 minutes or walk it in 60, I would end up burning similar calories, one just takes longer. So from a weight loss POV, walking is just as good as running, although this could all be hogwash since I don't even remember where I read it. Plus as you describe it as being more complicated in terms of where the calories are coming from.
> 
> 
> 
> We do have trainers available. I've looked into it before and they charge a pretty low fee for their services. The only downside is that the weight rooms are always packed and a lot of people complain that they spend more time waiting for a machine than actually working out. I'm sure this is dependent on time of day, though. The pool, on the other hand, has low use exactly when I like to go there during the week. They also have kickboards and other things to allow work on just the legs or arms.
> 
> I'll find something for the weekend. Plus, the heart of the rainy season is almost over. The rain cuts back in March and I'll be able to enjoy the outdoors more. As for intensifying the light college classes, I'm not sure. In some activities, yes, but in some, no. I have so far been placed with beginners with the expectation that I can help them out. For example, one day I was asked to lead the group through kata and observe and correct students doing moves incorrectly. So I spent more time slowly modeling blocks and strikes than getting a workout, which is valuable but not exactly helping me improve my fitness level. But another day was spent mostly sparring and I did get a good workout.
> 
> 
> 
> Always good advice! I actually would like to try running, but I think it would be wise to slim down first. Trail running really appeals to me. But for now, the two physical activities that I really enjoy are karate (of course) and swimming.  I also like cycling (on a real bicycle), but I have a wrist and hand problem when riding too long.  I bought special gloves to keep my hands from going numb, but my wrists get very sore from the weight on them. Part of this is probably my bike setup - I might trying raising my handlebars.


no weight loss through exercise is tried heavily to heart rate, walking three miles in an hour is a leisurelstroller, a moderately fit person shouldn't even have an  elevated heart rate at all at that pac,  now go walking up a fell or a small mountain and your talking. theres people jogging that arnt burning more that a moderate walk, but actually running, long stride,both feet off the ground at once is a different proposition

it's clear that your finding reasons not to do it, being over weight is not a reason to not go running, buy running shoes, pick a riut that about a mile and walk / run it, as long as the time drops on each repeat then your making good progress, you can do the same on your bike, but make it 5 miles.

you don't need a gym, there's a million body weight exercise  that are just as good, even if you do them at the gym, if the machines are busy at the gym,  use the free weights theres never a queue for the 50lbs dumbells, a kettle bell are a couple of square meters of space and your good


----------



## Bruce7

jobo said:


> no weight loss through exercise is tried heavily to heart rate, walking three miles in an hour is a leisurelstroller, a moderately fit person shouldn't even have an  elevated heart rate at all at that pac,  now go walking up a fell or a small mountain and your talking. theres people jogging that arnt burning more that a moderate walk, but actually running, long stride,both feet off the ground at once is a different proposition
> 
> it's clear that your finding reasons not to do it, being over weight is not a reason to not go running, buy running shoes, pick a riut that about a mile and walk / run it, as long as the time drops on each repeat then your making good progress, you can do the same on your bike, but make it 5 miles.
> 
> you don't need a gym, there's a million body weight exercise  that are just as good, even if you do them at the gym, if the machines are busy at the gym,  use the free weights theres never a queue for the 50lbs dumbells, a kettle bell are a couple of square meters of space and your good



I love running, I enjoy the high. The problem is running is very hard on the body. I can only run on a rubber track with excellent shoes without serious pain., because I push myself too hard when I was young. Being over weight will only add to the possible injure of running. If you want to be able to run in your 60's be careful while you are young. Running in a swimming pool is good, because you are not pounding the ground.


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> I love running, I enjoy the high. The problem is running is very hard on the body. I can only run on a rubber track with excellent shoes without serious pain., because I push myself too hard when I was young. Being over weight will only add to the possible injure of running. If you want to be able to run in your 60's be careful while you are young. Running in a swimming pool is good, because you are not pounding the ground.


that's another one of those myths, running is no harder on your body than walking, theres greater contact with the ground but less frequently for any given distance, so they more or less equal out  and keeping the distance short and the intensity high restricts the number of contacts you make, and run on grass if you want to restrict it even more.

if you got pre existing injuries that lead to pain, then no dont run, get a bike instead


----------



## Yokozuna514

jobo said:


> that's another one of those myths, running is no harder on your body than walking, theres greater contact with the ground but less of it for any given distance, so they more or less equal out  and keeping the distance short and the intensity high restricts the number of contacts you make, and run on grass if you want to restrict it even more.
> 
> if you got pre existing injuries that lead to pain, then no dont run, get a bike instead


Running is no harder on your body than walking if you learn the proper technique.  Most people are heel strikers and that is much harder on your body especially if you run on hard surfaces.   Wearing proper running shoes can mitigate some of the issues but not all of them.   Learning to toe strike when you run will alleviate a lot of the pounding but it requires a different type of stride:


----------



## Bruce7

jobo said:


> that's another one of those myths, running is no harder on your body than walking, theres greater contact with the ground but less frequently for any given distance, so they more or less equal out  and keeping the distance short and the intensity high restricts the number of contacts you make, and run on grass if you want to restrict it even more.
> 
> if you got pre existing injuries that lead to pain, then no dont run, get a bike instead



You seem to enjoy learning about athletics and coaching. If your A levels are high enough why not go to college and get a degree in 
Physical Education*. *Do some coaching,  it may improve your prospective on training.
Coaching change my prospective on training a lot.


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> You seem to enjoy learning about athletics and coaching. If your A levels are high enough why not go to college and get a degree in
> Physical Education*. *Do some coaching,  it may improve your prospective on training.
> Coaching change my prospective on training a lot.


I'm retired  , my days are spent walking my dog, training and messing about on the interweb, I've no intention of going back into academia, nor any chance of getting gainful employment with my qualification if I did.


----------



## jobo

Yokazuna514 said:


> Running is no harder on your body than walking if you learn the proper technique.  Most people are heel strikers and that is much harder on your body especially if you run on hard surfaces.   Wearing proper running shoes can mitigate some of the issues but not all of them.   Learning to toe strike when you run will alleviate a lot of the pounding but it requires a different type of stride:


yes, that's very true,  but then most people dont walk properly either, so it still sort of evens out


----------



## Bruce7

Yokazuna514 said:


> Running is no harder on your body than walking if you learn the proper technique.  Most people are heel strikers and that is much harder on your body especially if you run on hard surfaces.   Wearing proper running shoes can mitigate some of the issues but not all of them.   Learning to toe strike when you run will alleviate a lot of the pounding but it requires a different type of stride:



Running correctly helps you when running.I modified the way I run by not fully straightening the leg because it hyper extents my knee.
Running whether correct or not still puts more stress on your ankles, knees and hips than walking.
I walk 6 miles on concrete no joint pain or run 6 miles on rubber track no pain.
I run 6 miles on concrete a lot of knee and sometimes hip pain.


----------



## Bruce7

jobo said:


> I'm retired  , my days are spent walking my dog, training and messing about on the interweb, I've no intention of going back into academia, nor any chance of getting gainful employment with my qualification if I did.


I am retired too. I have 6 dogs to walk, so I do a lot of walking. What kind of dog do you have?


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> I am retired too. I have 6 dogs to walk, so I do a lot of walking. What kind of dog do you have?


difficult to describe, its Jack Russel themed with long legs it looks a bit like this only taller and 5hiner and sleeker


----------



## Bruce7

jobo said:


> difficult to describe, its Jack Russel themed with long legs it looks a bit like this only taller and 5hiner and sleeker



Good looking dog, bet he is smart.

I have a 12 year old blood hound who smells and does not move much. 140lb
He was a beauty in his prime smelled good to, like a horse.

I have a 3 year old half Vizsla, half Whippet very fast. 46lb
Bad on leash, pulls want to go.

I have a 2 1/2 year old Lab I found at the 
frisbee park when he was about 3 months old. 90lb
Lab great on leash unless there is a squirrel or rabbit,
Then he is very hard to hold. 

I have a 3 year old medium size poodle, mother of the Yorkipoos. 18lb

I have two 2 year old half poodle , half Yorkshire Terrier,
I guess you call them Yorkipoos, very cute. 14, 18 lb

Keeping up with my dogs is a full time job.


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> no weight loss through exercise is tried heavily to heart rate, walking three miles in an hour is a leisurelstroller, a moderately fit person shouldn't even have an  elevated heart rate at all at that pac,  now go walking up a fell or a small mountain and your talking. theres people jogging that arnt burning more that a moderate walk, but actually running, long stride,both feet off the ground at once is a different proposition
> 
> it's clear that your finding reasons not to do it, being over weight is not a reason to not go running, buy running shoes, pick a riut that about a mile and walk / run it, as long as the time drops on each repeat then your making good progress, you can do the same on your bike, but make it 5 miles.
> 
> you don't need a gym, there's a million body weight exercise  that are just as good, even if you do them at the gym, if the machines are busy at the gym,  use the free weights theres never a queue for the 50lbs dumbells, a kettle bell are a couple of square meters of space and your good


Your argument is from a standpoint of results/minimum length of time. This is not the highest level of importance for @Orion Nebula . Things like staying healthy and uninjured enough to continuing working out in any form is much more important. Remember, he is a bigger guy who has to be smart about what he does with the additional weight he is carrying. For example, why don't you strap on a 150 weight vest first thing in the morning, every morning for a month. Do everything you do through the course of a normal day including your current workout. Then add some or all of the exercises you mentioned and see how your joints, muscles, and motivation hold up. Accelerating joint wear is simply a stupid thing to do.
What I heard was he has seen gains in endurance and strength and is ready for the next evolution. He asked questions on this forum and got a plethora of varying answers. Some too extreme on both ends. Hopefully he will continue to seek out sources of information to determine a workable plan.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> Your argument is from a standpoint of results/minimum length of time. This is not the highest level of importance for @Orion Nebula . Things like staying healthy and uninjured enough to continuing working out in any form is much more important. Remember, he is a bigger guy who has to be smart about what he does with the additional weight he is carrying. For example, why don't you strap on a 150 weight vest first thing in the morning, every morning for a month. Do everything you do through the course of a normal day including your current workout. Then add some or all of the exercises you mentioned and see how your joints, muscles, and motivation hold up. Accelerating joint wear is simply a stupid thing to do.
> What I heard was he has seen gains in endurance and strength and is ready for the next evolution. He asked questions on this forum and got a plethora of varying answers. Some too extreme on both ends. Hopefully he will continue to seek out sources of information to determine a workable plan.


the only think worse for joints than exercises ING them is not exercising them, any notable improvement in fit Ness is obtained by progressive overload, with the key requirement being on overload . so that's faster,  longer heavier dependent on what you are doing otherwise you will get no where fast or more likely at all
NB I strap a 20lbs vest on, working my way up to150


----------



## Orion Nebula

jobo said:


> no weight loss through exercise is tried heavily to heart rate, walking three miles in an hour is a leisurelstroller, a moderately fit person shouldn't even have an  elevated heart rate at all at that pac,  now go walking up a fell or a small mountain and your talking. theres people jogging that arnt burning more that a moderate walk, but actually running, long stride,both feet off the ground at once is a different proposition
> 
> it's clear that your finding reasons not to do it, being over weight is not a reason to not go running, buy running shoes, pick a riut that about a mile and walk / run it, as long as the time drops on each repeat then your making good progress, you can do the same on your bike, but make it 5 miles.
> 
> you don't need a gym, there's a million body weight exercise  that are just as good, even if you do them at the gym, if the machines are busy at the gym,  use the free weights theres never a queue for the 50lbs dumbells, a kettle bell are a couple of square meters of space and your good



Walking has been documented in many studies to lead to weight loss, and you are incorrect that a slow pace of 3 mph doesn't elevate heart rate. For someone in a normal weight range, it's probably true. For someone with a lot of weight to lose, it takes a lot more effort to move. I can understand why you'd have that idea - I did too until I bought a Fitbit. When I go for a leisurely walk, it doesn't feel like my heart rate is very high, but it generally goes up to around 110-120 bmp. In case you're wondering how accurate the Fitbit is, I have compared it against the heart rate sensor at the doctor's office as well as manually taking my heart rate and it's within 2 or 3 bmp. However, you are correct that running burns more calories. I looked this up and found a few studies that compared running vs. walking a set distance and running always burned more. But as I said, I didn't know if my original statement was true or not because I don't even remember where I read it.

Also, I'm finding reasons not to start running yet because I've tried it and had knee and ankle pain. I wasn't even doing a significant amount of running - I was doing a couch to 5k style program that alternates running and walking. It's also well documented that overweight people are more prone to injuries while running. Are there overweight runners that don't have injuries? Of course, and I've read about runners heavier than me. However, I'm not interested in taking that risk right now, especially since I can do lots of other things that aren't likely to trash my knees.



Yokazuna514 said:


> This is actually easier said than done for a lot of people.  We tend to hold our breath as it gives us a feeling that we are able to move more securely and greater power however it rather inefficient to move this way as you have no doubt found out.   There are several things you can do to assist with breathing and relaxation when moving.   The first thing you can do is to release a little air every time you complete a movement/strike/block.  The best example I can think of is when a boxer lets out air every time he hits a bag.  The second thing you can do is relax your shoulders.  I suspect they are pretty tense as you are moving and holding your breath.  Consciously relaxing the shoulders will help you relax your entire body.  Stay relaxed in between each movement and only tense at the moment of impact (ie:  punch/kick or block).  Good luck.





_Simon_ said:


> Ah yep, I can definitely relate to this. I've found that at home if I train I used to be fine, could power through everything, but when it came to training in class, I would get so much more exhausted, much quicker. It's been quite a process learning to train with less tension (still learning!), but yes you'll find that training with excess tension and shallow breaths will fatigue you alot quicker.
> 
> What @Yokazuna514 said was great, especially the shoulders, so just be more mindful that you're exhaling with the techniques, and very importantly breathing deep down into your lower stomach as opposed to chest breathing.
> 
> It's only natural to be a bit tense when learning new things, as you're trying to get it perfect, but as you learn it and become more comfortable, you can work on consciously relaxing more



Thank you both for the advice. My sensei said similar things, but as you've pointed out, it's easier said than done. Hopefully as I develop better coordination and need to think less about my form and movement, I'll be able to better focus on things like breathing and relaxing my shoulders.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Which research is that?
> 
> Why is he injuring himself?


I didn't say he was injuring himself. I was suggesting a path that reduces the chance of injury as he gets ramped up.

If you like, I'll try to dig up one or two of the articles I'm thinking of. I don't keep great notes on sources, so it'll take me a bit to find them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Orion Nebula said:


> Last night, I had a really interesting class. The school is small and some of the students are pretty inconsistent with coming in. It's also the time of year for sickness. So I was the only student last night. It was great! I've never had one on one training before like that.
> 
> One of the conclusions we came to was that part of the reason I get tired fast is that I don't breathe right. For example, there was a long combo that I was struggling with and I was so fixated on trying to do it right and so tense that I was holding my breath through the whole set of moves. So in addition to improving fitness, I need to relax and little and breathe!


I remember reading (maybe a year or two ago, though it may have been an older article) that part of the early improvements we get with cardio is simply learning to control our reaction to needing more air. Apparently it's pretty common for us to breathe poorly when we feel that first need, which increases the feeling of need, which makes us breathe worse, etc. The context of the article was talking about getting past the first mile when getting into running, and understanding that the "out of breath" we feel at that point is usually just not controlling the breath well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> that's another one of those myths, running is no harder on your body than walking, theres greater contact with the ground but less frequently for any given distance, so they more or less equal out  and keeping the distance short and the intensity high restricts the number of contacts you make, and run on grass if you want to restrict it even more.
> 
> if you got pre existing injuries that lead to pain, then no dont run, get a bike instead


I'd be interested in seeing an explanation of that, Jobo. In running (as you said, where both feet leave the ground), there's a harder impact, which tends to wear on joints harder than the softer impact of walking. There's probably also more strain in the push stroke, but I'm skeptical whether that would be material for most folks, even over thousands of miles.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> I'd be interested in seeing an explanation of that, Jobo. In running (as you said, where both feet leave the ground), there's a harder impact, which tends to wear on joints harder than the softer impact of walking. There's probably also more strain in the push stroke, but I'm skeptical whether that would be material for most folks, even over thousands of miles.


I did read one of the actual studies, but can5 find it now, my kindle went in the canal

however here an article that identifies the studies and gives an over view
Does Running Damage Your Knees?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> I did read one of the actual studies, but can5 find it now, my kindle went in the canal
> 
> however here an article that identifies the studies and gives an over view
> Does Running Damage Your Knees?


If you could find it with the Kindle, you're ahead of me, man. My ability to get back to articles sucks regardless of whether I have my Kindle or not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> I did read one of the actual studies, but can5 find it now, my kindle went in the canal
> 
> however here an article that identifies the studies and gives an over view
> Does Running Damage Your Knees?


I'll need to go see what the actual studies say. I have two problems with that article (the usual kinds of problems with these things). First, they seem to equate time of contact with the ground with stress levels, but it's simple enough to show that impact puts more stress on some materials than static pressure does. Second, they seem to ignore a pretty likely confounding factor when they refer to runners having a lesser incidence of osteoarthritis. I can illustrate the issue easily: I don't run much now that my knees hurt more.

My doc (a sports medicine specialist) has also stated that long runs are a bad idea with the current state of my knees. Now, it's always possible he's wrong - sometimes even the educated folks are - but until I have better information (maybe those studies behind that article), I'll go with his educated opinion over that of WebMD.

EDIT: Unfortunately, I don't see where WebMD posted their sources.


----------



## jobo

Orion Nebula said:


> Walking has been documented in many studies to lead to weight loss, and you are incorrect that a slow pace of 3 mph doesn't elevate heart rate. For someone in a normal weight range, it's probably true. For someone with a lot of weight to lose, it takes a lot more effort to move. I can understand why you'd have that idea - I did too until I bought a Fitbit. When I go for a leisurely walk, it doesn't feel like my heart rate is very high, but it generally goes up to around 110-120 bmp. In case you're wondering how accurate the Fitbit is, I have compared it against the heart rate sensor at the doctor's office as well as manually taking my heart rate and it's within 2 or 3 bmp. However, you are correct that running burns more calories. I looked this up and found a few studies that compared running vs. walking a set distance and running always burned more. But as I said, I didn't know if my original statement was true or not because I don't even remember where I read it.
> 
> Also, I'm finding reasons not to start running yet because I've tried it and had knee and ankle pain. I wasn't even doing a significant amount of running - I was doing a couch to 5k style program that alternates running and walking. It's also well documented that overweight people are more prone to injuries while running. Are there overweight runners that don't have injuries? Of course, and I've read about runners heavier than me. However, I'm not interested in taking that risk right now, especially since I can do lots of other things that aren't likely to trash my knees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you both for the advice. My sensei said similar things, but as you've pointed out, it's easier said than done. Hopefully as I develop better coordination and need to think less about my form and movement, I'll be able to better focus on things like breathing and relaxing my shoulders.


that Info is meaning less with knowing your age and resting heart rate, but ill go out on a limb and say you max heart rate is 170bpm and you resting heart rate is close to 90, in which case it's not being over weight that's your problem it's being  chronically  unfit, hitting 70% of max heart rate on a gentle stroll is awe inspiringly unfit for a 80 yo and is 5he very reason you should get your bike out whilst you are still in a position to do so.

I'm surrounded by fat unfit middle aged people who all want to a) be fitter and b) loose weigh , but they can get fit as they are to fat and can't exercise the weight of as they arnt fit enough . so they do nothing but complain whilst going round and round in a logic trap, the only 5hing that's certain is 5hey will still be fat and unfit next year only fatter and unfitted than they are now, until they grasp the idea that 5hey have to actually put some effort in and lay off the donuts and beer


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> I'll need to go see what the actual studies say. I have two problems with that article (the usual kinds of problems with these things). First, they seem to equate time of contact with the ground with stress levels, but it's simple enough to show that impact puts more stress on some materials than static pressure does. Second, they seem to ignore a pretty likely confounding factor when they refer to runners having a lesser incidence of osteoarthritis. I can illustrate the issue easily: I don't run much now that my knees hurt more.
> 
> My doc (a sports medicine specialist) has also stated that long runs are a bad idea with the current state of my knees. Now, it's always possible he's wrong - sometimes even the educated folks are - but until I have better information (maybe those studies behind that article), I'll go with his educated opinion over that of WebMD.
> 
> EDIT: Unfortunately, I don't see where WebMD posted their sources.


but you've got dodgy knees, it doesn5 say running 8mproves them and running if your knees are all ready shot is not a good idea, that's what bikes are for


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> I'll need to go see what the actual studies say. I have two problems with that article (the usual kinds of problems with these things). First, they seem to equate time of contact with the ground with stress levels, but it's simple enough to show that impact puts more stress on some materials than static pressure does. Second, they seem to ignore a pretty likely confounding factor when they refer to runners having a lesser incidence of osteoarthritis. I can illustrate the issue easily: I don't run much now that my knees hurt more.
> 
> My doc (a sports medicine specialist) has also stated that long runs are a bad idea with the current state of my knees. Now, it's always possible he's wrong - sometimes even the educated folks are - but until I have better information (maybe those studies behind that article), I'll go with his educated opinion over that of WebMD.
> 
> EDIT: Unfortunately, I don't see where WebMD posted their sources.


ill have a Google tomorrow and see if I can track one down


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> but you've got dodgy knees, it doesn5 say running 8mproves them and running if your knees are all ready shot is not a good idea, that's what bikes are for


No, that was my point. If the study (which they don't cite, so I can't look at it) just compared rates of arthritis between runners and non-runners, the data would have a selection bias: people with arthritis are less likely to run, so a group of runners will have less arthritis than the general population. We'd have to see how the study considered that to know if it's a problem or not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> ill have a Google tomorrow and see if I can track one down


Much appreciated.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> No, that was my point. If the study (which they don't cite, so I can't look at it) just compared rates of arthritis between runners and non-runners, the data would have a selection bias: people with arthritis are less likely to run, so a group of runners will have less arthritis than the general population. We'd have to see how the study considered that to know if it's a problem or not.


they would surely be looking if runners had a higher rate 5han the general population, of which comparatively few have arthritis,  so the non running sufferers will only make up small % certainly if you look at younger age groups ,,


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> I did read one of the actual studies, but can5 find it now, my kindle went in the canal
> 
> however here an article that identifies the studies and gives an over view
> Does Running Damage Your Knees?


Wasn't it your kindle that fell in the canal, causing you to get a second one? Did that fall in too, or am I misremembering it?


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## jobo

kempodisciple said:


> Wasn't it your kindle that fell in the canal, causing you to get a second one? Did that fall in too, or am I misremembering it?


no it was my kindle that fell in the canal causing me to buy a Samsung,  the kindle however had the book mark for the study on it, hence I cant access it with out scuba gear


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## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> Your argument is from a standpoint of results/minimum length of time. This is not the highest level of importance for @Orion Nebula . Things like staying healthy and uninjured enough to continuing working out in any form is much more important. Remember, he is a bigger guy who has to be smart about what he does with the additional weight he is carrying. For example, why don't you strap on a 150 weight vest first thing in the morning, every morning for a month. Do everything you do through the course of a normal day including your current workout. Then add some or all of the exercises you mentioned and see how your joints, muscles, and motivation hold up. Accelerating joint wear is simply a stupid thing to do.
> What I heard was he has seen gains in endurance and strength and is ready for the next evolution. He asked questions on this forum and got a plethora of varying answers. Some too extreme on both ends. Hopefully he will continue to seek out sources of information to determine a workable plan.



So get the weight off.


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## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> Good looking dog, bet he is smart.
> 
> I have a 12 year old blood hound who smells and does not move much. 140lb
> He was a beauty in his prime smelled good to, like a horse.
> 
> I have a 3 year old half Vizsla, half Whippet very fast. 46lb
> Bad on leash, pulls want to go.
> 
> I have a 2 1/2 year old Lab I found at the
> frisbee park when he was about 3 months old. 90lb
> Lab great on leash unless there is a squirrel or rabbit,
> Then he is very hard to hold.
> 
> I have a 3 year old medium size poodle, mother of the Yorkipoos. 18lb
> 
> I have two 2 year old half poodle , half Yorkshire Terrier,
> I guess you call them Yorkipoos, very cute. 14, 18 lb
> 
> Keeping up with my dogs is a full time job.


mines 22lbs, use him as a dumbbell for doing a bit of curling


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> no it was my kindle that fell in the canal causing me to buy a Samsung,  the kindle however had the book mark for the study on it, hence I cant access it with out scuba gear


Ah. I knew something happened, just jumbled it up in my memory


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## Orion Nebula

jobo said:


> that Info is meaning less with knowing your age and resting heart rate, but ill go out on a limb and say you max heart rate is 170bpm and you resting heart rate is close to 90, in which case it's not being over weight that's your problem it's being  chronically  unfit, hitting 70% of max heart rate on a gentle stroll is awe inspiringly unfit for a 80 yo and is 5he very reason you should get your bike out whilst you are still in a position to do so.
> 
> I'm surrounded by fat unfit middle aged people who all want to a) be fitter and b) loose weigh , but they can get fit as they are to fat and can't exercise the weight of as they arnt fit enough . so they do nothing but complain whilst going round and round in a logic trap, the only 5hing that's certain is 5hey will still be fat and unfit next year only fatter and unfitted than they are now, until they grasp the idea that 5hey have to actually put some effort in and lay off the donuts and beer



Yikes, I'm 50 years old 

Only 33, actually, which puts my max heart rate at 187 unless there's some new way of calculating it that I'm unaware of. My resting heart rate is around 65. So I'm not awe-inspiringly unfit, I'm just hauling a lot of mass around and it raises my heart rate when I go for a fairly leisurely walk. Not a very leisurely walk, mind you. Taking the dogs for a walk around my neighborhood with perfectly flat roads and I barely crack 100, but I leisurely walk in the woods with a little bit of varied terrain brings it up into the 115 range.


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## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> no it was my kindle that fell in the canal causing me to buy a Samsung,  the kindle however had the book mark for the study on it, hence I cant access it with out scuba gear



Pay my airfare and I'll fetch it out.


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## _Simon_

Yokazuna514 said:


> Learning to toe strike when you run will alleviate a lot of the pounding but it requires a different type of stride:



I... did not know that! Thought heel-to-toe was the safer and way to run! Wow, learn something new every day


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## _Simon_

Bruce7 said:


> Good looking dog, bet he is smart.
> 
> I have a 12 year old blood hound who smells and does not move much. 140lb
> He was a beauty in his prime smelled good to, like a horse.
> 
> I have a 3 year old half Vizsla, half Whippet very fast. 46lb
> Bad on leash, pulls want to go.
> 
> I have a 2 1/2 year old Lab I found at the
> frisbee park when he was about 3 months old. 90lb
> Lab great on leash unless there is a squirrel or rabbit,
> Then he is very hard to hold.
> 
> I have a 3 year old medium size poodle, mother of the Yorkipoos. 18lb
> 
> I have two 2 year old half poodle , half Yorkshire Terrier,
> I guess you call them Yorkipoos, very cute. 14, 18 lb
> 
> Keeping up with my dogs is a full time job.


That's awesome Bruce  what a great bunch!


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> they would surely be looking if runners had a higher rate 5han the general population, of which comparatively few have arthritis,  so the non running sufferers will only make up small % certainly if you look at younger age groups ,,


There are ways to control (partly, at least), but I'd have to see the actual study to know if they did. Sometimes the studies don't control for such things, and just acknowledge the weakness in their data for future follow-up.


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> I... did not know that! Thought heel-to-toe was the safer and way to run! Wow, learn something new every day


It's by far the most common, and how I learned when I started running. For a while I used "barefoot" style shoes to develop a forefoot/midfoot strike, and then went back to standard running shoes with that gait. Unfortunately, it was too late for my crappy knees. 

On a tangent, I never did figure out how to use a forefoot/midfoot strike on a significant downhill.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Which research is that?
> 
> Why is he injuring himself?


Here's one study that looks at the increased incidence of injury and adaptation issues from over-training.
Musculoskeletal adaptations and injuries due to overtraining. - Abstract - Europe PMC


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> On a tangent, I never did figure out how to use a forefoot/midfoot strike on a significant downhill.



It's pretty simple actually. You take three steps purposely landing properly, then lean too far over to balance and topple down the hill.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Here's one study that looks at the increased incidence of injury and adaptation issues from over-training.
> Musculoskeletal adaptations and injuries due to overtraining. - Abstract - Europe PMC



Ok. But is OP over training?

Being sore really isn't a decent indication.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Ok. But is OP over training?
> 
> Being sore really isn't a decent indication.


I didn't say he was overtraining. I was recommending a gradual ramp-up to avoid it.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Here's one study that looks at the increased incidence of injury and adaptation issues from over-training.
> Musculoskeletal adaptations and injuries due to overtraining. - Abstract - Europe PMC



Bearing in mind people can train hard without developing injuries.






As an overview. He was training twice a day high intensity and not over training.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Bearing in mind people can train hard without developing injuries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an overview. He was training twice a day high intensity and not over training.


Agreed. The key is to know how hard you can train. Which most folks won't know when they start.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. The key is to know how hard you can train. Which most folks won't know when they start.



Most people can train harder than they think they can.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Most people can train harder than they think they can.


Yes. And most people also still don't know where overtraining is. A ramped-up start is still best for avoiding injuries and overtraining. This is less true when there's a professional involved monitoring to prevent injuries and overtraining.


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Yes. And most people also still don't know where overtraining is. A ramped-up start is still best for avoiding injuries and overtraining. This is less true when there's a professional involved monitoring to prevent injuries and overtraining.


theres no such thing as over training, just under recovery, when you've recovered you can train again, it doesn't need an expert to tell you when you've recovered, its blatantly obvious,  actually injuring yourself is a slightly different thing that requested bad technique, carelessness  or a certain level of stupidity to achieve, certainly once you've established any lever of fitness,  someone who has spent 5 years sat on the couch is a bit different


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> theres no such thing as over training, just under recovery, when you've recovered you can train again, it doesn't need an expert to tell you when you've recovered, its blatantly obvious,  actually injuring yourself is a slightly different thing that requested bad technique, carelessness  or a certain level of stupidity to achieve, certainly once you've established any lever of fitness,  someone who has spent 5 years sat on the couch is a bit different


In most cases, they are the same thing, simply stated from opposite sides. If someone wants to increase the frequency of exercise, they start running up against the limits of recovery. Overrun those limits, and you're over-training for the available recovery time.

Of course, if you actually train so hard you injure yourself in a single session, I suppose that would be different from under-recovery, but that's not what we're talking about.


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## JR 137

With all this stuff, it’s hard to remember exactly what the question was in the first place. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. I’ve never sidetracked a single thread 

The best training thing to do outside the dojo is addressing whatever your weaknesses are. Some people need cardio, strength, flexibility, etc.

My favorite thing is hitting the bag. It helps with practically everything - cardio, strength, coordination. The only thing it can’t do is get out of the way and punch me back. I focus on speed, power, footwork, pure technique, making combos flow better, and so on. A bag isn’t just for hitting it as hard as you can for as long as you can. IMO it’s the single best and most versatile piece of equipment a MAist can get.

Running, biking and rowing are way too boring for me. They feel like a punishment because they’re so monotonous. And I never feel like I get a good workout; either my legs get tired before the test of me is tired, especially on a bike, or I get so sick of the same movement and feel like I spent all that time on nothing. Hitting a bag never bores me. I never just go through the motions like I end up doing whenever I’m doing other stuff.

A bag’s versatility is basically limited by your imagination. There’s so many ways to work out with it.


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> With all this stuff, it’s hard to remember exactly what the question was in the first place. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. I’ve never sidetracked a single thread
> 
> The best training thing to do outside the dojo is addressing whatever your weaknesses are. Some people need cardio, strength, flexibility, etc.
> 
> My favorite thing is hitting the bag. It helps with practically everything - cardio, strength, coordination. The only thing it can’t do is get out of the way and punch me back. I focus on speed, power, footwork, pure technique, making combos flow better, and so on. A bag isn’t just for hitting it as hard as you can for as long as you can. IMO it’s the single best and most versatile piece of equipment a MAist can get.
> 
> Running, biking and rowing are way too boring for me. They feel like a punishment because they’re so monotonous. And I never feel like I get a good workout; either my legs get tired before the test of me is tired, especially on a bike, or I get so sick of the same movement and feel like I spent all that time on nothing. Hitting a bag never bores me. I never just go through the motions like I end up doing whenever I’m doing other stuff.
> 
> A bag’s versatility is basically limited by your imagination. There’s so many ways to work out with it.


I couldn't "like" and "funny" at the same time, and there's no "almost agree". So, I just opted to choose "funny" for the first sentence. I'm so ashamed of myself...I just normally never get sidetracked in a thread. 

I agree with the basic premise, though: find something that doesn't bore you, and has many benefits. I do like working the bag, but have a hard time holding back. I often wear myself out earlier than I intend (my goal is usually 10 1-minute rounds). Rowing is my answer. Everybody (including the OP - see? right on topic!) has to figure out what that thing is, and then figure out where it fits into their fitness plan.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I couldn't "like" and "funny" at the same time, and there's no "almost agree". So, I just opted to choose "funny" for the first sentence. I'm so ashamed of myself...I just normally never get sidetracked in a thread.
> 
> I agree with the basic premise, though: find something that doesn't bore you, and has many benefits. I do like working the bag, but have a hard time holding back. I often wear myself out earlier than I intend (my goal is usually 10 1-minute rounds). Rowing is my answer. Everybody (including the OP - see? right on topic!) has to figure out what that thing is, and then figure out where it fits into their fitness plan.


I had a hard time holding back at first too. Monitoring my heart rate with a Fitbit took care of it pretty quickly. I make sure I’m near the max rate during rounds, and I try it near resting rate during breaks. Having my pulse displayed on a watch at all times helps immensely. Sometimes I feel like I’m pushing too hard when I’m not and other times I feel like I’m slacking when I’m actually not. And as stupid as it sounds, it’s got this deep breathing relaxation timer that I use after cool down that’s pretty cool. On top of that, seeing a graph of my heart rate during the entire duration of the workout after I’m done and my stats puts things into perspective. I’m not guessing how many calories I actually burned, how much time I spent in each zone, stuff like that. It’s a great $125 investment IMO. 

My wife bought me my initial one as a birthday present because I was having some sleep issues and I was curious about how much I was actually walking around at work. I’d have never bought it for myself because I thought they were too gimmicky. After her surprising me with it, I really liked it. I bought a newer version about 2 years later because it had more stuff I wanted. 

Rowing, bikes and treadmills are way too monotonous for me. I don’t mind outdoor biking, but it’s too much of a hassle.


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## Orion Nebula

JR 137 said:


> I had a hard time holding back at first too. Monitoring my heart rate with a Fitbit took care of it pretty quickly. I make sure I’m near the max rate during rounds, and I try it near resting rate during breaks. Having my pulse displayed on a watch at all times helps immensely. Sometimes I feel like I’m pushing too hard when I’m not and other times I feel like I’m slacking when I’m actually not. And as stupid as it sounds, it’s got this deep breathing relaxation timer that I use after cool down that’s pretty cool. On top of that, seeing a graph of my heart rate during the entire duration of the workout after I’m done and my stats puts things into perspective. I’m not guessing how many calories I actually burned, how much time I spent in each zone, stuff like that. It’s a great $125 investment IMO.
> 
> My wife bought me my initial one as a birthday present because I was having some sleep issues and I was curious about how much I was actually walking around at work. I’d have never bought it for myself because I thought they were too gimmicky. After her surprising me with it, I really liked it. I bought a newer version about 2 years later because it had more stuff I wanted.
> 
> Rowing, bikes and treadmills are way too monotonous for me. I don’t mind outdoor biking, but it’s too much of a hassle.



I often wish I was wearing my Fitbit during class to see what's going on with my heart rate. Of course, I know I'm working hard, but I'm still curious. I feel like my instructors would probably be cool with me wearing it as long as I took it off for sparring (I imagine it could lead to problems accidentally hurting someone else or myself), but I can still hear my instructors in my mind from when I was a teen telling me that if I have anything on my body besides my uniform, I should be prepared for many, many push-ups.

Do you find that your Fitbit accurately calculates calories burned? I know that's really hard to determine, but when I initially got my Fitbit and was trying to lose weight by tracking calories in and out, I found that I wasn't seeing results unless I assumed the Fitbit was overcalculating by 1000 calories. Of course, I know my metabolism is strange, so perhaps it would be more accurate for someone a bit more normal.

I also really like the sleep tracking function. Not sure how accurate it is in terms of sleep cycles, but it was quite illuminating when I realized being in my bed for 8 hours didn't translate to 8 hours of sleeping.


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## JR 137

Orion Nebula said:


> I often wish I was wearing my Fitbit during class to see what's going on with my heart rate. Of course, I know I'm working hard, but I'm still curious. I feel like my instructors would probably be cool with me wearing it as long as I took it off for sparring (I imagine it could lead to problems accidentally hurting someone else or myself), but I can still hear my instructors in my mind from when I was a teen telling me that if I have anything on my body besides my uniform, I should be prepared for many, many push-ups.
> 
> Do you find that your Fitbit accurately calculates calories burned? I know that's really hard to determine, but when I initially got my Fitbit and was trying to lose weight by tracking calories in and out, I found that I wasn't seeing results unless I assumed the Fitbit was overcalculating by 1000 calories. Of course, I know my metabolism is strange, so perhaps it would be more accurate for someone a bit more normal.
> 
> I also really like the sleep tracking function. Not sure how accurate it is in terms of sleep cycles, but it was quite illuminating when I realized being in my bed for 8 hours didn't translate to 8 hours of sleeping.


I don’t know how accurate the Fitbit nor anything else is at tracking calories burned. The caloric information for stuff you entered could’ve been wrong. And don’t count portion size out either. Unless you were weighing everything or everything came from a package that was exact, people quite often underestimate portion sizes.

Your calorie thing could’ve been a combination of any or all of that.

The Fitbit isn’t the most accurate thing out there. It’s a good approximation of everything, but it’s not medical grade anything. Pulse is determined by light rather than movement or electricity. Light is the least accurate method. It’s also reported that the higher your heart rate, the less accurate it is.

Sleep experts (people doing clinical tests) would probably throw out the data collected from a Fitbit. I haven’t read research on its accuracy, but I’m quite sure it’s an approximation that experts would humor you by looking at. 

I’m not sure what the most accurate way of determining calories burned is. I’d imagine it’s a complex mathematical formula involving work (work = force x distance). I’d imagine it could also be done by heart rate somehow too. 

If you want clinical level heart rate accuracy, get a Polar chest strap. They’re the exercise physiologist standard. They measure the electrical activity of your heart like an EKG. Polar makes a version were it connects to your smartphone and an app does all the calculations. If you really want to get accurate, that’s the best way to go. And it would be easier to sneak in under your gi or clothes. Just don’t get hit in the chest 

I keep telling myself I’m going to get a Polar monitor because it’s better than wearing a Fitbit while I’m hitting the bag. Boxing gloves interfere with the watch, my punches get counted as steps, and it’s more accurate. One of these days.

https://www.amazon.com/Polar-91043550-PARENT-Soft-Strap-Set/dp/B00SIS3IEG


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