# Likelyhood of a trained attacker



## thetruth (Feb 7, 2007)

Honestly what do you guys think the likely hood is of being attacked in the street by some one trained in the arts?  

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Shotgun Buddha (Feb 7, 2007)

Likely enough to run into someone who knows a bit of boxing, which means you have your hands full. Boxing is pretty dangerous.
Training is not the problem.
If someone is attacking you, its because they feel they have an advantage.
Either
1. They've a few buddys with them
2. They've a weapon on them
3. They've been in enough scraps that they can fight anyway.
4. They're drunk or drugged up enough to think they're invincible.

Three and half of those are always bad news, and the other one where they're drunk could go either way.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 7, 2007)

so many people study these days I think that an attacker may have studied some. It might only have been a short time or from a friend who had studied but many would be attackers have some experience these days IMHO.  
Do you consider the fighting that is done in gangs or the sparing that is done among friends to be martial training or are you referring only to those that go to a open martial arts school and pay for their training


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## Shotgun Buddha (Feb 7, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> so many people study these days I think that an attacker may have studied some. It might only have been a short time or from a friend who had studied but many would be attackers have some experience these days IMHO.
> Do you consider the fighting that is done in gangs or the sparing that is done among friends to be martial training or are you referring only to those that go to a open martial arts school and pay for their training


 
I'd say brawlers are more likely than actually trained. But brawlers are a problem all on their own.


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## Cirdan (Feb 7, 2007)

Every other person seem to have a yellow belt in art x nowdays so it is as likely as not getting attacked by one if it is random violence in the cab line or whatever. Persons who have trained hard and reached higher levels of skill are far fewer and in most cases very focused individuals. As such they pick their fights carefully and those of violent or criminal nature are probably more likely to rob a bank than engage in street violence.


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 7, 2007)

Remember, if someone commits a crime, the chances are they have been in the prison system where the criminals there do train.  So I say the likelihood is very high.


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## MJS (Feb 7, 2007)

thetruth said:


> Honestly what do you guys think the likely hood is of being attacked in the street by some one trained in the arts?
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
I don't think that the majority of people you'll face will be on the level of a pro fighter, but we shouldn't assume that they're unskilled.  This isn't to say that the guy didn't attend a MA school at some time, but I'd say the majority of their skill will be what they've picked up from the streets.  

Train for the worst case scenario, train hard, train with realism and aliveness.  The arts don't make us Supermen, but they will give us an advantage. 

Mike


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## Lisa (Feb 7, 2007)

*Moderator Note:

Thread moved to General Self Defense to promote more responses.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator*


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## exile (Feb 7, 2007)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Every other person seem to have a yellow belt in art x nowdays so it is as likely as not getting attacked by one if it is random violence in the cab line or whatever. Persons who have trained hard and reached higher levels of skill are far fewer and in most cases very focused individuals. As such they pick their fights carefully and those of violent or criminal nature are probably more likely to rob a bank than engage in street violence.






MJS said:


> I don't think that the majority of people you'll face will be on the level of a pro fighter, but we shouldn't assume that they're unskilled.  This isn't to say that the guy didn't attend a MA school at some time, but I'd say the majority of their skill will be what they've picked up from the streets.
> 
> Train for the worst case scenario, train hard, train with realism and aliveness.  The arts don't make us Supermen, but they will give us an advantage.
> 
> Mike



I think Mike and Cirdan have closed in on the essential here. Whatever you're doing when you deal with someone like this, it won't be one-step sparring or standard kumite or whatever. The odds are, you're going to be facing one of a few most-common start-off moveswhat Bill Burgar calls HAOVs (habitual acts of violence)and it makes most sense, on a statistical basis, to prepare for them: roundhouses, groin grabs or kicks, eye strikes, head butts, with various grabs to immobilize you as part of setting up the attack. The percentage of trained attackers out there is almost certainly way, way less than the number of untrained attackers, and even guys who've gotten through a belt level in the MAs are probably going to rely on what they've found works on untrained (and physically intimidated) victims. Given the numbers, that's probably what you'd better prepare for. 

The guy I worry about, and prepare for accordingly, is the guy with a tire iron hanging around behind a pillar or stairwell at 9:30 or so at night in a parking garage. I'm far more likely to be facing _him_ than another high colored belt in TKD or karate confronting me with empty hands...


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## The Kidd (Feb 7, 2007)

Small percentage, they are going to attack faast and rely on the element of suprise because that is what has worked for them before.


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## MarkBarlow (Feb 7, 2007)

Experience counts for a lot.  The odds that this is the first time you've been assaulted will be fairly high while the chance that you are the first person the attacker has ever assaulted is slim.  They'll have more experience in attacking than you'll have in defending.  

Whatever training you've had in the Dojo, regardless of how realistic, will not fully prepare you for fear/surprise/off balance of a determined attack.


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 7, 2007)

as mark mentioned, trained -- not so much.  experienced?  yes indeed.

very little mat time, as you and i experience it, but lots of practice punching and kicking people (and stabbing or clobbering with a blunt instrument) under exactly the same circumstances they hope to start beating on you.

that's why i recommend avoidance as your first and second (at least) lines of defense.


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## Kage-Ronin (Feb 7, 2007)

Howdy,

IMNSHO probably at 30%, if we are useing a 100% range of scale. The reason being is because you used to not be able to throw a stick without hitting someone who did TKD at some point. 
With MMA, NHB, and such being as popular as they are in most circles today, it is fast becomeing that way again only with {insert art of choice here, with emphasis on BJJ,GJJ,Submission Wrestleing, Striking}
I would say 7-8% of that 30% (and it may be higher) may possibly be a ranked practicioner.

Just my .02


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## Robert Lee (Feb 7, 2007)

Maybe not trained But if attacked The person could have a decent fighting concept. And nowdays a baserball bat or something. Plus the old 2 or 3 people attacking you at a time. But most often as we age we have much less encounters which thats good.


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## Ninjamom (Feb 7, 2007)

I think it will be unlikely to meet someone who has trained _well_ in any traditional MA, the reason being that _real_ training takes discipline and hard work, and your average street thug isn't interested in either.

That being said, the real problem is, as MJS and Shotgun Buddha pointed out, facing someone with experience in fights.  Taking both together, it means you are not likely to be attacked in a way you are used to seeing other students of your art use in sparring, but you are likely to face someone with experience in dirty, physical techniques that work.


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## shesulsa (Feb 7, 2007)

Anybody ever see "Taxi Driver" with Robert DeNiro? :uhyeah:

While there may be some who actually physically train, there are far more who mentally train - and they're just as dangerous.

People who are making a life of crime spend time thinking things through - they have a plan, they have a backup plan, they talk about victimization, effective control of a victim, practice moves, etcetera.


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## JBrainard (Feb 7, 2007)

Kage-Ronin said:


> IMNSHO probably at 30%, if we are useing a 100% range of scale. The reason being is because you used to not be able to throw a stick without hitting someone who did TKD at some point.
> With MMA, NHB, and such being as popular as they are in most circles today, it is fast becomeing that way again only with {insert art of choice here, with emphasis on BJJ,GJJ,Submission Wrestleing, Striking}
> I would say 7-8% of that 30% (and it may be higher) may possibly be a ranked practicioner.


 
This is probably somewhat accurate. Plus add in that an "attacker" has most definitely been in a lot of scraps before they encounter you. PLUS, add in that if they survivied a lot of jail time then they are probably very skilled at brawling/streetfighting. I read somewhere, and it makes sense, that you will find the best knife fighters in the prison system.
So, unless you are in a bar and a drunk idiot throws a weak punch at you, any attack on you is going to have considerable experience/skill behind it.
That's what I think, at least.


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## Kage-Ronin (Feb 7, 2007)

> I read somewhere, and it makes sense, that you will find the best knife fighters in the prison system.


 
You and I must read the same stuff! I have read that before myself.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 7, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Anybody ever see "Taxi Driver" with Robert DeNiro? :uhyeah:
> 
> While there may be some who actually physically train, there are far more who mentally train - and they're just as dangerous.
> 
> People who are making a life of crime spend time thinking things through - they have a plan, they have a backup plan, they talk about victimization, effective control of a victim, practice moves, etcetera.


 

This is very true. They plan and they have a plan to execute with a back up plan. They know when to leave, they know when to attack to their advantages.  The mental is so important that the best physical skill set with no mental capabilities will not fair well in my experience or in my predictions.


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## still learning (Feb 7, 2007)

Hello, Remember (bad guys) they are not stupid to go against someone who they feel has an advantage over them.  They will always fight the weak and innocent, Or use a knife,gun,club or anything to give them an edge.

2. Most street punks...know very well what works on the streets.  Experience is the BEST training.  Plus they have done it more than once, where you...do not have the mental skills (adrenaline response) to prepare quickly. Well most of us do not have the proper training for the REAL WORLD...alone againist the bad guys, on the streets somewhere?

3. Expect the worst, anything goes style of fighting,people joining in from the sides,back, expect stones to be thrown at you.

4.BE smart...alway try to escape and get out of there as FAST as you can....only a fool stays around.  Also revenge should be expected later on from the attacker.....WATCH YOUR Back!

5.Our best weapons are: Awareness,Humbleness, and our legs (run)


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## kidswarrior (Feb 7, 2007)

Well, lots of good ideas already, but I'll just add my limited perspective. Seems to me in my geographical area (L.A. sprawl) there are two types of potential attackers:

1) The Road/'roid rage bully, who thinks his _BJJ or MMA or TMA or Boxing studio time+Adrenaline=Overwhelming attack_. And he may be right if I'm not ready for him to come out fast and furious (assuming I'm dumb enough to let my ego dictate that I stop the car/face off in the first place!).

2) The street/prison Veterano who in his twenties has more experience surviving dangerous situations than I ever hope to. This guy lives by his wits, plays dirty, and has done this many times before (as many fellow posters have said here).

In either case, I try to check my ego first. Lots of rage goes away if I don't respond in kind. If violence is unavoidable, need to control my adrenaline dump in order to maintain calm and confidence. Doing those things give me a good chance (given my training and background--also said by many here)--but no one wins every fight (any undefeated pro fighters?), and one loss on the street can mean I lose my life and my wife is left hurting financially, or I'm maimed or disabled. Even a win can mean litigation or even prosecution. And all this 'winning' is assuming I'm prepared for him _and_ his friends (BIG 'if'), _and_ no weapons pop out (second BIG 'if').

Kinda rambled here, but this is not meant to 'talk' over anyone else's post, but to be anecdotal from my own experience. 

~ kidswarrior


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## kidswarrior (Feb 7, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Remember (bad guys) they are not stupid to go against someone who they feel has an advantage over them. They will always fight the weak and innocent, Or use a knife,gun,club or anything to give them an edge.
> 
> 2. Most street punks...know very well what works on the streets. Experience is the BEST training. Plus they have done it more than once, where you...do not have the mental skills (adrenaline response) to prepare quickly. Well most of us do not have the proper training for the REAL WORLD...alone againist the bad guys, on the streets somewhere?
> 
> ...


 
LOL, we were typing the same things at the same time :lol:


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## grydth (Feb 7, 2007)

I could truthfully say I faced assailants on the street several times and won every time. But in retrospect, I definitely think it was because I was attacked by stupid and unskilled clods. There wasn't a great, or even good, fighter in the bunch. 

I'm very happy with this situation - let the skilled muggers stay with you guys!:uhyeah:


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## still learning (Feb 7, 2007)

grydth said:


> I could truthfully say I faced assailants on the street several times and won every time. But in retrospect, I definitely think it was because I was attacked by stupid and unskilled clods. There wasn't a great, or even good, fighter in the bunch.
> 
> I'm very happy with this situation - let the skilled muggers stay with you guys!:uhyeah:


 
Hello, This is good you survive your last couple of confrontations...it is always the last one (shot,stab,hit by a club)....or get killed by a  very train fighter..that will make you realize...the odds are getting smaller everytime you get into a fight.

Keep your EGO in check..practice awareness, become more humble...NO more fights means...your life will be in less danger.

Like speeding on the road...many times you survive...BUT a very small mistake is all it takes to CRASH.  It takes only one more time....each one brings you closer to end your world.

Learn to run....learn to hide....learn to live a longer life....Keep your pride inside the body.   A hand shake works better than a fist in most instances...

A good handshake can be turn into a wrist lock....oops...I mean...a friendly end to a seriouly situtions.........Shake hands ...big SMILE...will then make thing end peacefully ...............Aloha 

PS: If no choice..go for the destroy methods!  ..when done..shake his hand?
..


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## grydth (Feb 7, 2007)

This is excellent advice, which everyone from white belt to 10th dan should read.... regularly. 

The rest of you can't count on getting the Who Isn't Who of attackers that I drew. Really, they were all in the wrong line of work... and with bad luck, even one of them can kill you.


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## MJS (Feb 7, 2007)

Ninjamom said:


> I think it will be unlikely to meet someone who has trained _well_ in any traditional MA, the reason being that _real_ training takes discipline and hard work, and your average street thug isn't interested in either.
> 
> That being said, the real problem is, as MJS and Shotgun Buddha pointed out, facing someone with experience in fights. *Taking both together, it means you are not likely to be attacked in a way you are used to seeing other students of your art use in sparring, but you are likely to face someone with experience in dirty, physical techniques that work.*


 
Great point!!!  Going on that, this is why, IMO, its a good idea to run scenario drills, and train against the more common street attacks.  As you said, the guy on the street is going to be using dirty tactics.


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## exile (Feb 7, 2007)

I think it's wise to have a backup plan as well. No matter how good your physical skills are, you may find that the physical space, or numbers, are working against you. And your opponent may have a weaponknife, broken bottle, baseball bat... all kinds of stuff besides a firearm.

So I think it's worth seriously considering two further additions to your combat repertoire:

(i) become proficient with, and carry, throwing weapons. _No one_ is expecting to find themselves sucking on the business end of a fast moving throwing star. And the second or third one, fired from six or fewer feet away, will be even less expected...

(ii) follow up (i) with someting effective, that will persuade your attacker to lie face down, nose on the ground, feet two shoulder lengths apart with his hands in his pockets. It's hard to suddenly spring back to the attack from that position. A Wagner/Böker tactical folder in the immediate aftermath of (i) is probably an offer even your toughest would-be assailant can't refuse. 

Who in his or her right mind would want to have to be in that situation? But you may have no choice. That's the horrible thing about violence: it forces you to do very upleasant things to someone you haveat the beginning, at leastno wish to hurt. But if you're going to defend yourselfand you _deserve_ to be defended, even if you have to do it yourselfyou might as well do it so the vermin who was planning to attack you has no chance at all...


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## Hand Sword (Feb 7, 2007)

I think it's pretty likely. At least more so now, than in the past. There's a wave, from my experience, lately of the "machos". They seem to be the trouble makers, and have some training Boxing and MMA stuff. Sadly, there are "sith" out there, among us. We of the jedi order must train hard and remain diligent!


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## Jonathan Randall (Feb 7, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Anybody ever see "Taxi Driver" with Robert DeNiro? :uhyeah:
> 
> While there may be some who actually physically train, there are far more who mentally train - and they're just as dangerous.
> 
> People who are making a life of crime spend time thinking things through - they have a plan, they have a backup plan, they talk about victimization, effective control of a victim, practice moves, etcetera.


 
So true - you make a very pertinent point. Truth is, what you wrote of is really the greatest threat to any martial artist (mixed or traditional). Heck, I wrote somewhere in another thread how, when I was 19 and training nearly every day in TKD, Boxing and Judo (university - inexpensive classes) a "crazy" with a small pocketknife completely got the drop on me and held my tie and collar with one hand, kife to my throat in the other while using his knee as leverage. He literally jumped over the desk at work which I was sitting at and grabbed me, held me, than stole a bunch of useless (to him, at least) sales slips from the cash box. The point was, he chose the moment of attack, he acted without hesitation and with complete focus and ruthlessness  (something most MA's, as civilized human beings are conditioned against). I'm sure he'd done it or similiar before - while I, a dedicated MA'er, had not faced such an assault before. Given the dynamics of that situation, any non-cooperation on my part would have, IMO, been suicidal.


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## Last Fearner (Feb 8, 2007)

thetruth said:


> Honestly what do you guys think the likely hood is of being attacked in the street by some one trained in the arts?


 
Speaking more to this original question than to what to watch out for, and how to handle it, I would say it is getting to be more and more likely that an encounter in the street will be with someone who has had some formal training. I am not sure exactly what you mean by the "arts," but my mind goes directly to the well known Asian variations of "Martial Art." Although boxing is a way to fight with your hands, most every kid gets some amount of this taught to them by their dad, an older brother, or a gym teacher.

As some have said, it is becoming more widespread that Martial Art training is common place, not only among average people, but among criminals and gang members. There is the issue of quality of training, long term dedication, and formal instruction as opposed to back yard experimentation and street brawls among gang members. Either way, what it boils down to is the amount of real-life experience the attacker has, and how committed they are to hurting you. Your own real-life experience might open your eyes a bit, but if your instructor is good at "challenging" you in a realistic way, and if you have advance technical abilities, you will stand a better chance of survival.

Training is the key. I don't recommend students go out and get in street fights to gain experience, but somewhere in their chain of instruction (either their instructor, or their instructor's instructor) needs to have some real world experience, and be able to pass that on to you. It won't be exactly the same as what a real fight is like, but if your instructor makes it close enough, your advanced skill will likely prevail.

Of course, there are the misguided masses of so-called "Martial Artists" who spend years studying to be good fighters, but are lacking in moral character, honesty, and integrity. The contradiction is that a "good Martial Artist" would never attack another person unprovoked - - so you would have nothing to worry about from a more advanced, trained fighter. Unfortunately, these are not truly "Martial Artists," so their willingness to do you bodily harm would go unchecked.

For me, the more exact answer to the question of how "likely" it is that I would be attacked by a trained Martial Artists, comes down to how likely I would be attacked at all. What are the chances that I am going to be bitten by a shark while swimming in the Pacific Ocean? Well, since I live in Michigan, and even if I were to visit the west coast, you would not find me swimming in the ocean, thus I am not very likely to be the victim of a shark attack.

How likely is it that I would be mugged in a dark alley and robbed of the thousands of dollars worth of cash hanging out of my pockets. Not likely, because I don't make a habit of walking down dark alleys, especially not while carrying large amounts of cash! I guess it is like others have said already, avoid fights, control your ego, defuse situations, avoid bad environments, and don't look like a potential victim. Then the percentage of chances that you will be attacked at all goes way down.



still learning said:


> Remember (bad guys) they are not stupid to go against someone who they feel has an advantage over them. They will always fight the weak and innocent,


 
Here are some fabricated statistics that I just made up:

10% of attackers will have absolutely no training.
50% of attackers will be trained in something, but not trained very well.
30% of attackers will be very skilled in street fighting.
10% of attackers will be highly trained in "Martial Combat" but lack character.

Of the above groups, 100% of them are dangerous, and become more so the more you underestimate them.

The likely-hood of you ever encountering any of them in a fight will depend greatly on you - - about 99%!

That is my opinion, and wild guess - lol  

CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## Darth F.Takeda (Feb 14, 2007)

Stret Thugs  train in their own  ways, some even  do stuff like  Kickboxing,BJJ,  and MMA.

I lived in a shady hood when I was younger, and everyone I knew  either had a  little MA and we all sparred or " Play  fought", on top of that, unfortunatly  we fought alot.

 All the nice reasons to be in a Martial art aside, the reason for a fighting  art is just that, fighting.  That does not mean go out  and  look for it, but you  should train for it.

 To  many MAs  can discuss  technique,  tradition and spout off a  bunch  of words  in  a  foreghn language  but  are  missing the most important coarse of  study, the  study of violence.

 Read the Police  blotter, get your hands on SD accounts, watch Prison docs  (because that's  where the  guys  you need to fear really learn  to get nasty) tape them and slow mo the  assults you  see,  and then run the  scenario  at the Dojo.

 Read guys like Payton  Quinn, Marc McYoung, David Grossman,  not  even the seasoned fighter will agree with everything in their books, but they'll agree with more than they disagree  with.

I also feel books by Military combat vets can be helpfull  for developing combat mindset. Whether it's  in a Rice Paddy in S.E. Asia, or in  your living room, a fight for life and limb is War. Dead  is dead, if its  done  to you by someone else, you are a combat casualty.

  If you  have  the tendacy to freeze up or be shocked in the face of violence, then you need to work the  mental  game hard.
 Desensatize yourself,  find the most  brutal  real  films of  assults  you can and  watch them till it has  no effect on you.

  Have your Dojo  mates insult and push your buttons in special training sessions, use strobe  lights, anything to make it as chaotic as hell, because it can be  chaotic  as Hell.

 Our Military,  untill  the last few  years, was largely  un tested in Combat, but the training they  give  them  sure  worked, as  Iraq   was  one  of the quickest Invasions in History, so exp. is alot, but not everything.

 Good, honest, tough training can win the day


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## exile (Feb 14, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> Good, honest, tough training can win the day



I agree with _everything_ in this post, but especially with this last sentence. The key is training. The techs are there, and are meant to be applied under extreme conditions of danger and adrenal shock, but only training can make them _usable_and then, if all has been done right, they're _very_ usable. 

One thing to remember:  the street-trained violent assailant doesn't expect, and probably isn't ready for, a trained, equally violent and pitiless response from a combat-wise defender. That's (y)our advantage. It's also a key to our best shot at coming away unharmed: drive the advantage of surpise into the ground. Counterattack and end the conflict quickly and without mercy. I hate it, but there are people who need us and depend on us...


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## Darth F.Takeda (Feb 14, 2007)

SPEED+SURPRISE+VIOLENCE OF ACTION=CHAOS
 CHAOS=Victory for the  one  who causes it.

I have heard this axiom  from many in the bizz of taking out bad people.
It is  a  mantra for many CT and LEO teams. Sometimes the wording is different (Attack into them with Extreme Aggression- Andy McNabb, 22SAS, Leader  of  patrol Bravo 2-0)

An uncle, who has nothing  to  do with the Military, but was  a wild  SOB in his youth,  said the same thing  to me  as  a youngster. " Hit them in mid  sentence, and  keep hitting  them till  they go limp." 
It  worked  a  good deal.

Even   the badest of the  bad are screwed if  they  are  viciously attacked, right off the bat.
Mamby pamaby laws  aside, when you  know  your being  set up or threatend ATTACK!,full on, no quarter, Throat, eyes, knee, whatever, hit it and keep the pressure on the enemy.

If  your  attacked,  defending is a  death mindset, you attack him  back, the old charge  the  ambush  rule. 
 So  many see Jujutsu as  a defensive art. Not  as  I or how the Samurai were taught, you are  counter attacking his attack, it might look defensive, but it's not.

 I actually hate the word Self Defense, because it implies waiting and  reacting, I pefer Counter Assault, it's  proactive,even if attacked  first, you counter attack him, get him off balance, you gain  control of the  tempo  of the situation.


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 15, 2007)

I'm surprised that nobody (at least I didn't see it) has offered up the golden rule of combat...............

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR OPPONENT.........consider everyone trained.


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## Tony (Feb 15, 2007)

It makes me sad that potential attackers could have studied a Martial Art or Boxing or even any other style because somewhere down the line they have not learnt humility or possibly even had good instruction. I know a lot of Clubs have strict rules about who they let in but some places will let anyone join and people who have an aggressive streak will only become more dangerous if they are not controlled. Long gone are the days when Kung fu schools would make students do boring jobs like carrying water or in make them sweep the floors to learn humility.  I have a friend  who has reached black belt level in Taekwondo who is very aggressive. He has been banned from sparring many times due to excessive contact. He gets enraged when someone makes contact with him and angry if he loses. I know he is at a good school but he has not learned humility. He is teaching younger students and its a worry because he is their role model. Although i could do with a bit more aggression in me to balance the constant fear I have of getting into a fight but when I have sparred I always feel remorse when I hurt someone. I even try to take to easy if i spar with a female student but of course she would want me to spar as if i were with a  male student. In our class there was no hostility and we woudl touch gloves. In fact I would compliment my fellow sparring opponent on his ability rather than get angry because he lost which is what my friend does I believe! 

Before I entered the Martial Arts I was attacked when I was 17, got some blows to the head and a kick to the groin but because I had sucha big rush of adrenaline I didn't feel a thing. At that time I was too shy to find a Martial Art class so I used to train myself from books, not really the best way! I think these attackers were probably experienced in some way but probably not martial arts.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> Stret Thugs train in their own ways, some even do stuff like Kickboxing,BJJ, and MMA.
> 
> I lived in a shady hood when I was younger, and everyone I knew either had a little MA and we all sparred or " Play fought", on top of that, unfortunatly we fought alot.


 
But do they take it to a level of expertise? In my experience with them, they lack the discipline to really follow through on much of anything.

I've worked with these guys professionally for about 20 years, and IMHO the thing they have going for them maybe more than any MA training, is as you said, they have fought alot. They're going to be able to handle the adrenaline dump that comes with sudden,chaotic, no referee street situations, and they have a fighting 'system' that works for them.



> _All the nice reasons to be in a Martial art aside, the reason for a fighting art is just that, fighting. That does not mean go out and look for it, but you should train for it._
> 
> _To many MAs .... are missing the most important coarse of study, the study of violence._
> 
> ...


 
I agree to an extent. But if I spend too much time in that stuff, I get caught up in it, expecting the worst all the time. Can make one fearful, even paranoid, which is the opposite of what I want to continue to achieve with my MA training (and communicate to my MA students): a calm, fearless (confident) demeanor. I've found this to head off confrontations before they start, on many occasions (realisitically, maybe two-three dozen times in the 20 years). And yes, I know that despite this and our being smart about it (as someone said, brain is 90% of sefety) sometimes violence happens--there's always a crazy out there if we're around long enough. 



> _Good, honest, tough training can win the day_


 
Again, I agree. But also again, for my part, don't want for myself or my students to spend every day in fear of what might happpen because we've filled our imaginations with the worst of the worst crime scenes and possible scenarios, such as a steady diet of prison docs (where all the street psychopaths and sociopaths are squeezed into one place, making the situation exponentially worse), or reading police blotters, and mistaking that for the norm. As the late Jimmy H. Woo, Grand Master and Founder of Kung Fu San Soo, said: _You can take my life, but not my confidence._ From what I can tell, he was never fearful, always cheerful, yet survived or 'won' an estimated 200 street scenarios.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2007)

Tony said:


> It makes me sad that potential attackers could have studied a Martial Art or Boxing or even any other style because somewhere down the line they have not learnt humility or possibly even had good instruction. I know a lot of Clubs have strict rules about who they let in but some places will let anyone join and people who have an aggressive streak will only become more dangerous if they are not controlled.


 
It's difficult to predict which beginner may become hyper aggressive later on. But between beginning and becoming proficient, I believe most students take on the demeanor of their teacher. If the teacher shows humility, the students will 'catch' it (I believe most of the critical MA lessons are caught, not taught). 



> _I think these attackers were probably experienced in some way but probably not martial arts_.


 
Yes. Both Darth F. Takeda and I (and possibly others) agree with you here, as you'll see in prior posts.


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## Stan (Feb 15, 2007)

The part of this question that makes me uncomfortable is the essentialism and moral absolutism.  We talk of "street thugs" as if all people who end up committing violent crime are "violent by nature".  How Aristotelian!

People attack others for any number of reasons.  Don't assume that an attacker is a burnout or a loser.  Don't assume that they're not disciplined.  

A criminal is a person who commits a crime.  If I went out and battered someone right now, I'd be a criminal.  I'm less _likely _to do that for many reasons, including my martial arts training.  But the talk of "street thugs" not training nor having the discipline to assumes that they are all by essence criminals, and have always been.  People turn for any number of reasons.  Most homeless weren't born that way, for example.  Who here knows what they would do, or how far their morals would sink, if they didn't truly know where their next meal was coming from?


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## Infinite (Feb 15, 2007)

Stan said:


> The part of this question that makes me uncomfortable is the essentialism and moral absolutism.  We talk of "street thugs" as if all people who end up committing violent crime are "violent by nature".  How Aristotelian!
> 
> People attack others for any number of reasons.  Don't assume that an attacker is a burnout or a loser.  Don't assume that they're not disciplined.
> 
> A criminal is a person who commits a crime.  If I went out and battered someone right now, I'd be a criminal.  I'm less _likely _to do that for many reasons, including my martial arts training.  But the talk of "street thugs" not training nor having the discipline to assumes that they are all by essence criminals, and have always been.  People turn for any number of reasons.  Most homeless weren't born that way, for example.  Who here knows what they would do, or how far their morals would sink, if they didn't truly know where their next meal was coming from?



While these are all valuable points to consider and perhaps we were hyperfocusing I think we were just postulating the worst case scenario. In that case the attacker is a career criminal with the ability to nogitate violence.

The cracked out drug user with a knife isn't likely to have been trained he's likely to be hopped up and thus dangerious or not hopped up and thus dangerious.

The kid who is doing it to join a gang on the other hand. They are going to teach him to fight.

So the question is who are we likely to run into and have to worry about?

--Infy


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## Empty Hands (Feb 15, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> We of the jedi order must train hard and remain diligent!



The force is strong with this one... :jediduel:


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2007)

Infinite said:


> While these are all valuable points to consider and perhaps we were hyperfocusing I think we were just postulating the worst case scenario. In that case the attacker is a career criminal with the ability to nogitate violence.
> 
> The cracked out drug user with a knife isn't likely to have been trained he's likely to be hopped up and thus dangerious or not hopped up and thus dangerious.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed! I work with teens (and their older family members/homies) that many people would cross the street to avoid, yet I don't see them that way at all when we're together. Doesn't mean some of them haven't/won't do something ugly to someone at some point in life--maybe to one of us or our loved ones, if we haven't prepared. 

So while I certainly don't ever want to stereotype, don't want to be naive either. Categories have their limitations, but can be useful at times.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Feb 15, 2007)

It's because I train this way and am a student of violence, that I do not walk  around paranoid, but I do feel it is foolish  to be out in public and not have some level of awarness up.
 This has served me well.

 Durring times when I was away from the arts,and not training, I was definatly more weary  and a bit Paranoid  when around elements that were shady.

Not to be cocky or  underestimate  people, as that can mean a nasty surprise, but because I train the way I do,  I feel tthat I am useually the most dangerous guy in the room when around shady types.  I train to maim or  kill such people.

 It's  also easier to remain calm and get out of a situation, or turn on the look  and convence them I am not to be messed with, because I train this way.

 But no I do not think about this 24/7, but  as a  Nidan, who's  Sensei  expects  to pass on what I have learned, I think about it more than most  would need to.

 Be hard to protect what is soft,kind and gentle, from those  who are malevolent. They are Legeon.

  Rickson Gracie says something in Choke that I really liked, especially when you get those types  who say " You  do that s$%#  because you are really affraid.
  It  was something like " I fear everything and everyone. That's why I do Jujutsu."  I have kids that need  me, I fear some Thug will  try to kill me once more, so I train to kill him.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2007)

Darth F.Takeda said:


> It's because I train this way and am a student of violence, that I do not walk around paranoid, but I do feel it is foolish to be out in public and not have some level of awarness up.
> This has served me well.
> 
> Durring times when I was away from the arts,and not training, I was definatly more weary and a bit Paranoid when around elements that were shady.
> ...


 
Well when you put it like that :ultracool . This time around, I'm with you on every point (those same guys I mentioned earlier always believe [right or wrong] that I'm 'not to be messed with', as you say). I think it was the 24/7 take I read into(?) your previous entry that worried me. Good post, eloquent clarification.


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