# Full Head Control vs. Untrained



## KangTsai (Aug 21, 2016)

I swear, 
Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone). It hurts alot, it immobilises the clinchee, and provides easy takedowns, easy cheesy strikes, and even a standing guillotine. It can neutralise situations or finish them. I believe it's a great self defence move. Thoughts?


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch



Grasshopper you have much to learn  there's many styles that can cope with this, many take actions to make sure they don't get into it in the first place.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I swear,
> Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone). It hurts alot, it immobilises the clinchee, and provides easy takedowns, easy cheesy strikes, and even a standing guillotine. It can neutralise situations or finish them. I believe it's a great self defence move. Thoughts?


I'd guess almost any well-skilled opponent can "deal with" this clinch in some form or fashion. The hardest part would be getting to it, since you'd have to get past all of their strikes and defenses. Since it's used in Muay Thai, they're obviously among the best-trained against it, but similar elements are taught in many arts. Even a boxer - among the least "grapply" of arts - would probably have some defense against this.


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## Danny T (Aug 21, 2016)

*Full Head Control vs. Untrained
*
Are you referring to a completely untrained person or a who is trained in the martial arts but not trained in the above specific clinch?


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 21, 2016)

Every system has techniques where there is very little you can do if you get caught in it.  most people who get caught in these techniques are forced to "ride it out."  Even trained Muay Thai fighters get caught in a clinch that they can't escape which usually results in them hitting the ground or catching a few knees.  In a self-defense context the Muay Thai clinch is probably less valuable compared to the damage elbows and kicks can do.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Yes. A good Thai clinch is a serious issue to deal with.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone).


You train MA so you can handle the best of the best. You don't train MA just to handle the "untrained".

There are many different ways to break apart a MT clinch. But if you have experience in MA, you should try to take advantage on it instead. The advantage that you can take on it is "if your opponent wants his arms to be closer to your body, you want to help his arms to be even more closer to your body. If he want to bend his arms, you want to help him to bend his arms even more".

When you use Thai clinch, you will give your opponent a chance to lock both of your arms between your body and your opponent's body. It's a "helpless" feeling that you don't want to experience it.

You have 2 arms and your opponent also has 2 arms. When you use both arms to control your opponent's head, both of your opponent's arms are still free. His arms can wrap around your head from outside include your both arms. When your head and arms are wrapped, you can't see very well, that's the time he will attack your leg and take you down.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You train MA so you can handle the best of the best. You don't train MA just to handle the "untrained".
> 
> When you use Thai clinch, you will give your opponent a chance to lock both of your arms between your body and your opponent's body. It's a "helpless" feeling that you don't want to experience it.
> 
> The concern is when you use both arms to control your opponent's head, both of your opponent's arms are still free. His arms can wrap around your head include your both arms from outside.



Nope. Won't work. Different sort of clinch.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Nope. Won't work. Different sort of clinch.


In your clip, since his opponent didn't pin his arm onto his chest, the distance is too far and that gives him too much freedom and mobility.

When your opponent moves in toward you, you want to move in toward him too. You don't want to move back as shown in your clip.

Also when your opponent strikes you with his knee, he is standing on one leg. if you can't figure out how to take him down right at that moment, you may have serious issue with your take down skill.








Your opponent's neck tie arms gives you a free contact point if you know how to take advantage on it. Here is an example.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Double post.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In your clip, since his opponent didn't pin his arm onto his chest, the distance is too far and that gives him too much freedom and mobility.
> 
> When your opponent moves in toward you, you want to move in toward him too. You don't want to move back as shown in your clip.
> 
> Also when your opponent strikes you with his knee, he is standing on one leg. if you can't figure out how to take him down right at that moment, you may have serious issue with your take down skill. Your opponent's neck tie arms gives you a free contact point if you know how to take advantage on it.



It also makes life easier if your opponent clinches without breaking your posture. And then stands there not throwing knees at you. The falls over.

If you can't figure out how to take someone down while you are getting kneed in the face be better?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It also makes life easier if your opponent clinches without breaking your posture. And then stands there not throwing knees at you. The falls over.


To train how to take your opponent down during his double neck tie with knee striking is a very important part of Sanshou/Sanda training because it happens very often.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To train how to take your opponent down during his double neck tie with knee striking is a very important part of Sanshou/Sanda training because it happens very often.



Then you would start with a real Thai clinch wouldn't you?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> If you can't figure out how to take someone down while you are getting kneed in the face be better?


I have some training clips just for that. When I dig it out, I'll share here.

It's leg against leg skill. When your opponent raises his knee to strike you, you also raise your knee to block his leg. You then spin your body and use your leg to "horse back kick" his standing leg and take him down. It will be your take down skill against your opponent's take down skill.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Then you would start with a real Thai clinch wouldn't you?


What's the difference between a "real Thai clinch" and "double neck tie"?


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the difference?



The whole point of a Thai clinch is to break their posture. Not to break you own.











You are head locking through a v shaped arm that is anchored to to your own head. While they have dominant position. You are throwing against the strengths of that clinch.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The whole point of a Thai clinch is to break their posture. Not to break you own.


But when you try to break your opponent's structure, your opponent can also break your structure too. In clinch, whoever can break the other's structure will win.

In that clip, a left arm pin followed by a head lock can bend his opponent's spine sideway (break the structure) before the take down is applied.

I know it sounds like paradox. You want to break your opponent's structure but you don't want your opponent to break your structure. It's as simple as you want to punch my head and I also want to punch your head. Whoever can punch the other's head first will win.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But when you train to break your opponent's structure, your opponent can also break your structure too. In clinch, whoever can break the other's structure will win. In that clip, a left arm pin followed by a head lock can bend his opponent's spine sideway (break the structure).
> 
> I know it sounds like paradox. You want to break your opponent's structure but you don't want your opponent to break your structure.



If you are 50/50 but you are not. They have dominant position so it isn't very likely you are going to break their structure as they have the mechanical advantage.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> If you are 50/50 but you are not. They have dominant position so it isn't very likely you are going to break their structure as they have the mechanical advantage.


My personal experience may be different from yours. When my opponent uses double neck tie on me, after I have obtained a left arm pin, a body spin to my left with a powerful right hay maker on the back of his head can knock his head to his right and crash his structure.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You train MA so you can handle the best of the best. You don't train MA just to handle the "untrained".
> 
> There are many different ways to break apart a MT clinch. But if you have experience in MA, you should try to take advantage on it instead. The advantage that you can take on it is "if your opponent wants his arms to be closer to your body, you want to help his arms to be even more closer to your body. If he want to bend his arms, you want to help him to bend his arms even more".
> 
> ...


That's not a Muay Thai clinch.  The mechanics of a Muay Thai clinch are different.  The Muay Thai clinch seeks to disrupt a persons stance. The moment the person feels like you are going to do something thing to get out of it, he will pull your off balance by whipping you quickly either to the right or to the left.  When the Muay Thai clinch is executed properly it just destroys the balance.


drop bear said:


> The whole point of a Thai clinch is to break their posture. Not to break you own.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been in a Muay Thai Clinch and it sucks to have one locked in.  It's almost a constant battle of trying to maintain balance and structure. The moment the opponent feels that you will try to escape, they will jerk you to the left or right, by the time you regain balance you are either catching a knee or being tossed. The best chance to deal with that type of clinch is to prevent it from being locked on.    Once a person is in a full clinch then it's just literally going to be a rough ride.  Most people can escape from it because it's not a technique where they just hold on to you and put you to sleep.  Eventually the person will release the clinch but not after he has given some brutal punishment. 





Notice how one guy is doing the clinch and the other guy is taking the punishment for conditioning purposes.  That conditioning will become useful when he screws up and has to take a ride on the Muay Thai Clinch bus.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> If you are 50/50 but you are not. They have dominant position so it isn't very likely you are going to break their structure as they have the mechanical advantage.


Even at 50/50, it's only an assumption.  A true 50/50 is a stalemate.





In fighting there is rarely a true 50/50.   The reality of a 50/50 is that it can easily become a situation where one person is dominant for example 51/49.  In terms of breaking structures that 1% dominance is more than enough to layout some pain. That 1% dominance in structure could be the difference between standing up and being thrown to the ground, or kneed.

I have to agree with drop bear on this one.  I've been put in a Muay Thai clinch and it felt like that 1% was more than enough to turn a stalemate into something painful.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> When the Muay Thai clinch is executed properly it just destroys the balance.


The keyword here is "properly".

If you don't give your opponent a chance to apply his MT clinch "properly", you win. Otherwise, you lose.

When your opponent has double neck tie on you.

- You use your left hand to pin down his right elbow to force his right fore-arm to touch on your chest.
- You use your right fore-arm to smash on his left upper arm to force his left elbow joint to bend to his right (your left). This will make his arms closer to each other.
- You step back your left leg and spin your body to your left.

This can make his MT clinch "improperly".

Never let your opponent to feel comfortable in his clinch is the key here. When you make your opponent to feel uncomfortable, you will make yourself to feel comfortable.


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## JP3 (Aug 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Nope. Won't work. Different sort of clinch.


Drop, while I disagree witht he O/P use of the word "Nobody," and I totally agree with you that a Thai clinch is a serious problem to deal with (I loved to use it and did so all the time), I've had a simple kosotogari or kosogake take us (my opponent and i) both the ground before as Wang said above.  One way to think about the Thai clinch is that it's a posture breaking device, used in a stand-up striking art to tear down the opponents structure, and keep him off-balance while you damage the begeezus out of him with your knee strikes -- or you can just use it to take a breather.

I was stubborn, and stuck to my technique even though I was doing some free-fight traning with some other guys, just having fun, seeing who could pee the farthest, like that. One of the main reasons I ended up in Judo was this guy who had watched me "end" a couple of the fights with just this clinch, by figuring out the other guys movement and striking patterns, sliding inside their guard with a combination and allowing them to fall ihnto the clinch. Then, it's all over but the crying, I used to say in my arrogance. *shrug* Everyone learns humility, sooner or later. I think I've had to learn it about 17 times and I'm probably due for number 18 any day now.

Anyway, judo guy asks me to work with him, and I said sure as he had some golden gloves in his background. We went back and forth a minute or so, he scoring on me with his better than my boxing skills, me sorting of making his day worse with the leg kicks, even though not so hard, and then I got the combination I wanted and he fell into the trap of the clinch. I thought.

It went on, I locked it down and applied the locking angles, bringing the judokas head down and to me (any judo guys out there can start laughing now, I know now what I just did), and the next thing I know I'm first on my butt, then on my back with an indian carpet laying on me and really not so much in a clinch any more.

I figured it out after a couple more times, but the vulnerability is right there. It's just not there in a Thai-boxing match, as it's illegal. Clinch goes on, opponent goes with it (ju) and ends up literally under the constriction of the clinch, maybe gives up a little skin, but then it's an easy leg vs. leg technique. You can almost pick one, especially the sacrifice ones.

I trained witht he judo guy off and on for a couple months, and ended up with he and I working through a transition technique of sorts, which, depending on how I was attacked, ended up with my clinch still on, for what it's worth, and holding a guard or mount position depending on where we went, but very often it ended up being a half-guard I'd managed to snag on the way down.

And that, my buddy, is how I got introduced to BJJ as a next step.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

Let's compare the following 6 different clinches.

1. double neck tie - you control your opponent's head but his both arms are free.
2. bear hug - you control your opponent's waist but his both arms are free.
3. head lock - you control your opponent's head and one of his arms but his other arm is still free.
4. waist wrap - you control your opponent's waist and his arms but his other arm is still free.
5. double under hook - you control both of your opponent's arms and none of his arms is free.
6. double over hook - you control both of your opponent's arms and none of his arms is free.

In theory, 5. 6 > 4, 3 > 1, 2.

But since in 3, you are using your arm (the strong part of your body) to deal with your opponent's neck (the weak part of his body), that will be your advantage.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 21, 2016)

What will happen when a MT guy gets a clinch on a wrestler?

Will the

- MT guy knees the wrestler to death, or
- wrestler takes the MT guy down?

Nobody will knows. That's the beauty of the MMA format. It's your skill against your opponent's skill. But one thing for sure is, from a wrestler point of view, if you don't kill me with your knee, I will take you down.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What will happen when a MT guy gets a clinch on a wrestler?
> 
> Will the
> 
> ...


yep pretty much how their mind works.


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## drop bear (Aug 21, 2016)

JP3 said:


> Drop, while I disagree witht he O/P use of the word "Nobody," and I totally agree with you that a Thai clinch is a serious problem to deal with (I loved to use it and did so all the time), I've had a simple kosotogari or kosogake take us (my opponent and i) both the ground before as Wang said above.  One way to think about the Thai clinch is that it's a posture breaking device, used in a stand-up striking art to tear down the opponents structure, and keep him off-balance while you damage the begeezus out of him with your knee strikes -- or you can just use it to take a breather.
> 
> I was stubborn, and stuck to my technique even though I was doing some free-fight traning with some other guys, just having fun, seeing who could pee the farthest, like that. One of the main reasons I ended up in Judo was this guy who had watched me "end" a couple of the fights with just this clinch, by figuring out the other guys movement and striking patterns, sliding inside their guard with a combination and allowing them to fall ihnto the clinch. Then, it's all over but the crying, I used to say in my arrogance. *shrug* Everyone learns humility, sooner or later. I think I've had to learn it about 17 times and I'm probably due for number 18 any day now.
> 
> ...



Cool.  I do know a judo guy.  I will have a play with that.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> If you can't figure out how to take someone down while you are getting kneed in the face be better?


X-Block or double palm/forearm block against the knee strike, slip one hand under the knee and lift up whilst using your free hand to push back on the face or throat and down they go.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

In the above clip, both persons are training from a 100% "striker" point of view. None has intention to break/sweep/hook/scoop/block/... his opponent's single standing leg while his opponent's other leg is up for knee striking.

You can not only use your leg to kick/knee your opponent. You can also use your leg to take down your opponent too. This is why IMO, the MMA format is better. The pure "MT" and pure "wrestling" format are both too restricted.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> X-Block or double palm/forearm block against the knee strike, slip one hand under the knee and lift up whilst using your free hand to push back on the face or throat and down they go.



Man.  If you want to ever pop on up and throw on a kudo mask so you dont get killed.  

I can show you how difficult that is to do live.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> slip one hand under the knee and lift up whilst using your free hand to push back on the face or throat and down they go.


The "single leg" is always good to be used to counter any kick or knee. There are many different methods to obtain your opponent's leading leg. Let your opponent to knee you is one of the valid methods.

This remind me a challenge match that happened many years ago. A MT guy challenged a wrestler. Since the wrestler had no MT striking experience. The wrestler went to his teacher and asked for strategy. The teacher said, "You don't know how to punch, elbow, kick, or knee, but do you know how to take it?" In the match, the wrestler received some knee strikes on his body, took his opponent down, the stand up striking game ended right there, and the ground game started after that.


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## KangTsai (Aug 22, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I swear,
> Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone).


You know what this bit is pretty stupid. I'll rephrase: "It's very hard to deal with."


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> You know what this bit is pretty stupid. I'll rephrase: "It's very hard to deal with."



My 'like' is for you more than the post, you'll go far!


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## Juany118 (Aug 22, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can not only use your leg to kick/knee your opponent. You can also use your leg to take down your opponent too. This is why IMO, the MMA format is better. The pure "MT" and pure "wrestling" format are both too restricted.



How many striking MAs (with kicking techniques) don't have leg take downs though? Admittedly the only striking arts I have studied are Ryushinkan, WC and Kali (well Kali is kinda MMAish I suppose), but all three of then have such take downs.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2016)

Wado has takedowns and techniques to use on the ground.


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## HW1 (Aug 22, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I swear,
> Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone). It hurts alot, it immobilises the clinchee, and provides easy takedowns, easy cheesy strikes, and even a standing guillotine. It can neutralise situations or finish them. I believe it's a great self defence move. Thoughts?


No doubt it's a great technique and works well in competitive situations. In my opinion however is it's *BAD FOR STREET SELF-DEFENSE*. It leaves you vulnerable to takedowns and, more importantly, you have no control and can't easily see your opponent's hands if they *pull out something sharp and shiny* from their pocket.


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## Kickboxer101 (Aug 22, 2016)

It's not the clinch that's the scary part it's the knees coming in once they have itit


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## Juany118 (Aug 22, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> It's not the clinch that's the scary part it's the knees coming in once they have itit


Yes but in terms of self defense the entire tactic misses what HW1 speaks to.  One day just walking around look at people's pockets.  You will be surprised how many people have folding clip knives.  Now think of the people with "regular" folders and pocket knives.  Heck the number of people I stop with box cutters is pretty crazy.  Then picture the possible consequences of the clinch, you lack of vision to the waist and lower, and the danger it creates.  Even with the knees it's a problem.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Man.  If you want to ever pop on up and throw on a kudo mask so you dont get killed.
> 
> I can show you how difficult that is to do live.



And I could show you how hard it is to get a hold of me without getting killed first (figuratively speaking of course). X-blocks are not hard to do, live or otherwise.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 22, 2016)

Some random thoughts...

For those who don't know, the Thai version of the double collar control is often referred to as the "plum".

Just grabbing the head is not enough. You need to know how to apply the Thai clinch properly. This includes controlling the distance, breaking the opponent's structure, manipulating his balance, and countering the standard counters (which include driving in for takedowns).

The Thai clinch is useful not just for applying knees, but also for setting up elbows, other close range strikes, and some takedowns.

Properly applied, the Thai clinch is actually a pretty good platform for countering takedowns, but as I mentioned before, you need to know how to use it for that purpose.

You need to know when to give up the position and transition to something else. If you blindly hold on for dear life when your opponent starts winning the battle for structure and posture, then you can get into trouble. The best clinchers will transition smoothly between the double collar tie, other clinch positions, and disengaging from moment to moment as necessary.

As a couple of people noted, there is a problem in street application in that the position is not good for monitoring for an opponent pulling out a blade. Not saying you can't use the clinch, but you don't want to hang out there very long, especially if the opponent can maintain sufficient posture long enough to deploy a knife and you can't see his hands.

Wrestlers are good at countering head control, so if you want to use this clinch effectively against a wrestler, you need to be pretty skilled at it.

If you've never worked with someone who is good at the Thai clinch and been in that position, it's probably a mistake to explain the counters you think would work. Your ideas are ... unlikely to be as effective as you might theorize.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you've never worked with someone who is good at the Thai clinch and been in that position, it's probably a mistake to explain the counters you think would work. Your ideas are ... unlikely to be as effective as you might theorize.


 I know my first assumption about the Thai clinch was totally missing the structure breakdown, slight shifts in one directions and another shift in the other direction.  My first time being in one made me think of Tai Chi.  Now any countering theories will require that I factor in structural break downs.  I was glad that I was able to experience this through friendly sparring and not in a competitive match where the penalty for being wrong is more painful.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> You will be surprised how many people have folding clip knives.


This is why I believe that when you use both of your hands to control your opponent's head and give him 2 free arms is a bad strategy.

Here is an example of bad head lock. Why? Both of his opponent's hands are free.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I know my first assumption about the Thai clinch was totally missing the structure breakdown,


We all want to use clinch to break our opponent's structure. Whether we can achieve that goal or not will be something else.

The following statements contradict to each other - a MA paradox.

1. If you cannot use your clinch to break your opponent's structure, you are not a good wrestler.
2. If your opponent can use clinch to break your structure, you are not a good wrestler.

Some clinch only has the look but don't have the effect. May be he

- doesn't know how, or
- doesn't have the ability to do so.

For example, in the following picture, he didn't break his opponent's structure because his opponent's spine is still vertical.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> structure breakdown, ...


What's the easiest way to break down your opponent's structure?

I'll start from the head.

forehead > nose > mouth > chin > neck

Any pressure that you apply on the head, it will bend the neck, bend the spine, and collapse the body structure.

The "double neck tie" issue is when your both hands are on your opponent's low neck, you are not taking advantage on the length of his head and neck. Your rotation axis is too short compare to if you wrap one arm on his arm, wrap another arm on his head.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

HW1 said:


> No doubt it's a great technique and works well in competitive situations. In my opinion however is it's *BAD FOR STREET SELF-DEFENSE*. It leaves you vulnerable to takedowns and, more importantly, you have no control and can't easily see your opponent's hands if they *pull out something sharp and shiny* from their pocket.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> And I could show you how hard it is to get a hold of me without getting killed first (figuratively speaking of course). X-blocks are not hard to do, live or otherwise.



And yet we have a whole video of guys just forgetting to simply x block when they are getting their faces kneed off.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Yes but in terms of self defense the entire tactic misses what HW1 speaks to.  One day just walking around look at people's pockets.  You will be surprised how many people have folding clip knives.  Now think of the people with "regular" folders and pocket knives.  Heck the number of people I stop with box cutters is pretty crazy.  Then picture the possible consequences of the clinch, you lack of vision to the waist and lower, and the danger it creates.  Even with the knees it's a problem.



There is no unarmed defence that is a safe defence against knife attack. 

Is this going to come up with every single technique?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is no unarmed defence that is a safe defence against knife attack.
> 
> Is this going to come up with every single technique?


Teacher: This is how you should fight with your open hands.
Student: What if my opponent has a knife?
Teacher: ...
Student: What if my opponent has a gun?
Teacher: ...
Student: What if my opponent throws a grenade at me?
Teacher: ...
Student: What if my opponent has a machine gun?
Teacher: ...
Student: What if my opponent drives his tank toward me?
Teacher: ...


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the easiest way to break down your opponent's structure?
> 
> I'll start from the head.
> 
> ...


Except that you really shouldn't be clinching like that.

This is a no no. (Base of the neck)





You really should be hanging off the top of their head.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is no unarmed defence that is a safe defence against knife attack.


No, but there are techniques which give you a better chance than others of spotting someone pulling a knife in time to react appropriately.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Except that you really shouldn't be clinching like that.
> 
> This is a no no. (Base of the neck)
> 
> ...


Agree that if you can put your hands behind your opponent's head as higher as possible and pull his head on your chest so his spine will bend forward, it will be better. That also mean your body is much closer to your opponent's body. You should also assume that your opponent is not a good wrestler. To a wrestler, the closer the distance, the better advantage will be for him.

You do have to be taller (or equal height) as your opponent.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> No, but there are techniques which give you a better chance than others of spotting someone pulling a knife in time to react appropriately.



How sure of these techniques are you willing to be?






Spotting that knife?


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree that if you can put your hand behind your opponent's head (as higher as possible), it will be better.
> 
> You do have to be taller (or equal height) as your opponent.




Because you can't reach above your own head?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Because you can't reach above your own head?


If you are 5 feet and your opponent is 6 feet, your "double neck tie" will make yourself to be hanged from your opponent's neck with your feet in the air.

The

- neck control is consider to be "upper body control" (suitable for taller person).
- waist control is consider to be "lower body control" (suitable for shorter person).


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are 5 feet and your opponent is 6 feet, your "double neck tie" will make yourself to be hanged from your opponent's neck with your feet in the air.
> 
> The
> 
> ...



That's fine. Most people can't stand up straight if someone is hanging of their head.

Posture broken.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

You may use

- "double neck tie" to bend your opponent's head forward (which cause his spine to bend forward).
- "head lock" to bend your opponent's head sideway (which cause his spine to bend sideway).

IMO, to cause your opponent's spine to bend sideway will give him more trouble than to bend his spine forward.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> That's fine. Most people can't stand up straight if someone is hanging of their head.
> 
> Posture broken.


Many people can hold their opponent up in the air when their opponent apply "jump guard".


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## Danny T (Aug 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Some random thoughts...
> 
> For those who don't know, the Thai version of the double collar control is often referred to as the "plum".
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^^ AGREED!

I am willing to step out on a limb and state if 'most' of what you have seen is from the mma world as to thai clinch much is not a very good representation of it. There are variations of the thai clinch that are not the double neck tie type. A lot of what seems is upright positioning is because the other is very good at countering the breakdown of the structure. 
Taught a muay thai workshop this weekend to a mma group with clinch being a part. Entering, controlling, and countering. Attacking with knees, elbows, and punches. Countering and preventing attacks with in the clinch, trips, sweeps, and takedowns within the clinch and exiting the clinch without taking damage or getting KOed.

Many were amazed with how little they could do when placed in a proper clinch.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is no unarmed defence that is a safe defence against knife attack.
> 
> Is this going to come up with every single technique?


Being that is a fight hopefully the knife would have been pulled


Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many people can hold their opponent up in the air when their opponent apply "jump guard".


ha ha ha... dang.  watching that stuff made me feel like I was the one who couldn't breath.  If I was going to do that I wouldn't wrap my legs around the person.  I would just drop the weight straight down forcing my opponent to bend at an awkward position.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many people can hold their opponent up in the air when their opponent apply "jump guard".




I will take your jump guard and raise you a flying triangle.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2016)

Danny T said:


> ^^^^^^^^ AGREED!
> 
> I am willing to step out on a limb and state if 'most' of what you have seen is from the mma world as to thai clinch much is not a very good representation of it. There are variations of the thai clinch that are not the double neck tie type. A lot of what seems is upright positioning is because the other is very good at countering the breakdown of the structure.
> Taught a muay thai workshop this weekend to a mma group with clinch being a part. Entering, controlling, and countering. Attacking with knees, elbows, and punches. Countering and preventing attacks with in the clinch, trips, sweeps, and takedowns within the clinch and exiting the clinch without taking damage or getting KOed.
> ...


"How little they could do when placed in a proper clinch? lol  you can always get that ticket and "go for the ride" and hope it's a short one preferably being tossed to the ground instead of kneed in the ribs.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Being that is a fight hopefully the knife would have been pulled
> .



At which point most self defence moves don't work either.


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## Juany118 (Aug 22, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> No, but there are techniques which give you a better chance than others of spotting someone pulling a knife in time to react appropriately.



Exactly.  Knives are dang dangerous but their primary danger in a street encounter is their stealth.  If you opponent has half a clue, even before you enter grappling range, he will be trying to ensure you "feel" the knife before you "see" the knife.  Why do that job for him by using techniques that prevent seeing the knife with no effort on their part?

Seeing the pocket knife also, at a minimum, will like save ya even if you get cut.  Slashes from a pocket knife hurt, can scar and are bloody but are rarely, if ever, fatal.  It's thrusts that more often than not kill people because vital organs or arteries were compromised (Columbian neck ties not withstanding of course)


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## Danny T (Aug 22, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> "How little they could do when placed in a proper clinch? lol  you can always get that ticket and "go for the ride" and hope it's a short one preferably being tossed to the ground instead of kneed in the ribs.


...or eating a couple of elbows.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Exactly.  Knives are dang dangerous but their primary danger in a street encounter is their stealth.  If you opponent has half a clue, even before you enter grappling range, he will be trying to ensure you "feel" the knife before you "see" the knife.  Why do that job for him by using techniques that prevent seeing the knife with no effort on their part?
> 
> Seeing the pocket knife also, at a minimum, will like save ya even if you get cut.  Slashes from a pocket knife hurt, can scar and are bloody but are rarely, if ever, fatal.  It's thrusts that more often than not kill people because vital organs or arteries were compromised (Columbian neck ties not withstanding of course)



Yeah rarely if ever kill is kind of better than months in treatment because you get your arm cut.

But still increadably sucktastick from what I have seen.

I know the guy who did this attack. And is a legitimately bad guy.

Knife attack on two people

And yeah. He got off which tells you how effective a good lawer is I suppose.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I will take your jump guard and raise you a flying triangle.


Too risky. It can end like this.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Too risky. It can end like this.



So can just standing there apparently.

(There is a trick to pulling off a single leg like that. And considering you can suplex a guy from there. Legs around the waist wasn't the worst idea.)


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> At which point most self defence moves don't work either.


For playing that ridiculous demo of knife defense lol.  I always get a good laugh at that video especially the 70 slashes of death.






This is my favorite one because it plays into the argument that if you know staff then you can use a broom like a staff.  I guess this was a missed opportunity.





But then again here's what I was referring to.  That the fight starts without a knife and then suddenly one pops up during the wrestling.  For me personally I would rather see the knife from the very beginning then for it to come out in the middle of the fight.


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## Juany118 (Aug 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah rarely if ever kill is kind of better than months in treatment because you get your arm cut.
> 
> But still increadably sucktastick from what I have seen.
> 
> ...



Oh it sure as hell sucks.  My only point was to say that sometimes it's better, imo, to use tactics that are effective empty hand but also assume the person may pull a blade.  It is the blade that you feel before you see it that is more likely to be a stab wound than a slash.  

I saw the effects of this first hand actually.  A suspect went to commit a strong arm robbery on a man he didn't know was armed with a knife.  Witness say when the victim refused to give up the wallet the suspect went to take the victim down to the ground.  The victim pulled his pocket knife and stabbed blindly, no skill, as he was taken down.  He got the suspect in the inner thigh with a thrust and punctured the femoral artery.  The suspect ran 30 feet, dropped and had bled out by the time we got there.

That rammed home to me "treat everyone like they have a knife" because I am less apt to be surprised and IF they have a knife chances are I will "just" get cut (yes it still sucks) rather than be stabbed (sucks a lot more.). Sometimes on the street it's a matter of choosing what sucks the least.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2016)

Danny T said:


> ...or eating a couple of elbows.


lol yeah. Contrary to the name, the funny bone isn't that funny and it tastes horrible.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Oh it sure as hell sucks.  My only point was to say that sometimes it's better, imo, to use tactics that are effective empty hand but also assume the person may pull a blade.  It is the blade that you feel before you see it that is more likely to be a stab wound than a slash.
> 
> I saw the effects of this first hand actually.  A suspect went to commit a strong arm robbery on a man he didn't know was armed with a knife.  Witness say when the victim refused to give up the wallet the suspect went to take the victim down to the ground.  The victim pulled his pocket knife and stabbed blindly, no skill, as he was taken down.  He got the suspect in the inner thigh with a thrust and punctured the femoral artery.  The suspect ran 30 feet, dropped and had bled out by the time we got there.
> 
> That rammed home to me "treat everyone like they have a knife" because I am less apt to be surprised and IF they have a knife chances are I will "just" get cut (yes it still sucks) rather than be stabbed (sucks a lot more.). Sometimes on the street it's a matter of choosing what sucks the least.


So what you are saying is to beat the person as brutally as possible just in case they have a knife that they want to pull out.  I think I'm going to walk around with a sword from now on.


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## Juany118 (Aug 22, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> So what you are saying is to beat the person as brutally as possible just in case they have a knife that they want to pull out.  I think I'm going to walk around with a sword from now on.



No not at all, simply make sure you use techniques that allow you to maintain as much awareness as possible, such as don't use the Muay Thai clinch as you won't be able to see a knife drawn at the same time it places you in a position to be stabbed easily.  If you have to grapple try to make sure you are controlling arms, unless in a completely dominate position.  That kinda thing.

However I would also say that a goal should be to end the fight as quickly as possible.  The problem there I find lies in judgement.  Example.  My Sifu is big on making us think.  Sometimes he will purposefully make a mistake to see if we catch it.  Other times he will simply ask, "what do you do from here." Tonight one of the younger lads (well younger than me) did everything right in response to that question except he ended with a strike to the throat.  I piped up at that point and said "son if you do that you sure as heck better be able to justify a threat to your life since if you connect solidly with that full force that guy is going to need an airway inserted by a Paramedic to breath, if they arrive on scene in time that is."

I have become the class's defacto "use of force continuum" consultant lol, but I tend to stay out of the way until stuff like that happens. Lol


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## Red Sun (Aug 22, 2016)

Wait, wait. I know you guys are talking about clinch positions, but let's take a step back. This is self defense, not a brawl. If you grab someone in a clinch, it's because you want to elbow, knee, uppercut... it's not like you're gonna hang onto them for the next 30 seconds looking for clean shots. They shouldn't get a chance to pull out a knife in the clinch because you've already stopped their attack, swung them around, kneed them in the ribs, thrown a left hook, and started trying to escape.

IMO, YMMV, etc.


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## Juany118 (Aug 22, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Wait, wait. I know you guys are talking about clinch positions, but let's take a step back. This is self defense, not a brawl. If you grab someone in a clinch, it's because you want to elbow, knee, uppercut... it's not like you're gonna hang onto them for the next 30 seconds looking for clean shots. They shouldn't get a chance to pull out a knife in the clinch because you've already stopped their attack, swung them around, kneed them in the ribs, thrown a left hook, and started trying to escape.
> 
> IMO, YMMV, etc.



I can have my knife drawn, deployed and striking you in one move basically just with my reaction time (average human reaction time is less than one second).  I carry this FOX DART XT Knife & DART XTTK Trainer with Training (U.S.) DVD (Hand Size: M - XL).  If you then add in the spring assisted knives out there like Gerber Mini FAST Draw Tanto Knife Assisted Opening (2.13" Black Plain) - Blade HQ, that require no practice to use... 

Another consideration is you don't run unless that guy, if you closed the distance like that, unless they are DOWN because if they are armed and catch up, you are screwed.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 22, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Wait, wait. I know you guys are talking about clinch positions, but let's take a step back. This is self defense, not a brawl. If you grab someone in a clinch, it's because you want to elbow, knee, uppercut... it's not like you're gonna hang onto them for the next 30 seconds looking for clean shots. They shouldn't get a chance to pull out a knife in the clinch because you've already stopped their attack, swung them around, kneed them in the ribs, thrown a left hook, and started trying to escape.
> 
> IMO, YMMV, etc.



You could probably see the knife from there as well as you can see one from anywhere else. 

Face punching is pretty distracting for both parties.


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## Red Sun (Aug 22, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Another consideration is you don't run unless that guy, if you closed the distance like that, unless they are DOWN because if they are armed and catch up, you are screwed.



Well... yeah. But you're also a bit screwed if you stay and fight. 
EDIT: as far as weapons are concerned, i mean


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 22, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Well... yeah. But you're also a bit screwed if you stay and fight.
> EDIT: as far as weapons are concerned, i mean



That's why I say use tactics and techniques that maximize situational awareness as much as possible first and foremost for the street.  The Muay Thai clinch doesn't do that.

Basically, the way I am trained to fight, you always try to make sure you can watch elbows and knees.  Not only do these indicate what's coming and how BUT since the waist and hands are in between them you are also watching for potential weapon deployment as you scan.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> And yet we have a whole video of guys just forgetting to simply x block when they are getting their faces kneed off.


Well then I guess that makes it completely impossible for anyone to ever apply an X-block against a knee strike.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2016)

By using your knee to block your opponent's knee strike should be the best solution.






After you have used your knee to block your opponent's knee strike, a

- hook on his standing leg, and
- push on his upper body

can take him down and end the stand up fight.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Well then I guess that makes it completely impossible for anyone to ever apply an X-block against a knee strike.



Makes it a lot less likely that you will block a knee pick it up and dump the guy.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Makes it a lot less likely that you will block a knee pick it up and dump the guy.


Not really, especially if your training actually includes an X-block.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> That's why I say use tactics and techniques that maximize situational awareness as much as possible first and foremost for the street.  The Muay Thai clinch doesn't do that.
> 
> Basically, the way I am trained to fight, you always try to make sure you can watch elbows and knees.  Not only do these indicate what's coming and how BUT since the waist and hands are in between them you are also watching for potential weapon deployment as you scan.



Yeah but you remain in a fifty fifty trade.  Which is still high risk.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Oh it sure as hell sucks.  My only point was to say that sometimes it's better, imo, to use tactics that are effective empty hand but also assume the person may pull a blade.  It is the blade that you feel before you see it that is more likely to be a stab wound than a slash.
> 
> I saw the effects of this first hand actually.  A suspect went to commit a strong arm robbery on a man he didn't know was armed with a knife.  Witness say when the victim refused to give up the wallet the suspect went to take the victim down to the ground.  The victim pulled his pocket knife and stabbed blindly, no skill, as he was taken down.  He got the suspect in the inner thigh with a thrust and punctured the femoral artery.  The suspect ran 30 feet, dropped and had bled out by the time we got there.
> 
> That rammed home to me "treat everyone like they have a knife" because I am less apt to be surprised and IF they have a knife chances are I will "just" get cut (yes it still sucks) rather than be stabbed (sucks a lot more.). Sometimes on the street it's a matter of choosing what sucks the least.


I've been starting to cover this point with my students, as we've started getting into knife defenses. I'm pointing out why I choose the "favorite" techniques I do, and how they keep the knife off of me, even if I don't know it's there. IMO, it's best to have a few favorite techniques that you like for both armed and unarmed attackers, so you'll use them even if the knife isn't seen. This also means you don't have to make such a big change when you go into "knife mode".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Wait, wait. I know you guys are talking about clinch positions, but let's take a step back. This is self defense, not a brawl. If you grab someone in a clinch, it's because you want to elbow, knee, uppercut... it's not like you're gonna hang onto them for the next 30 seconds looking for clean shots. They shouldn't get a chance to pull out a knife in the clinch because you've already stopped their attack, swung them around, kneed them in the ribs, thrown a left hook, and started trying to escape.
> 
> IMO, YMMV, etc.


I'd say a clinch like this can be useful in self-defense if you can use it to completely dominate them and get in a fast, hard shot and get back out. One quick knee, if you've kept him off-balance on the way in (which would slow down his knife-draw), would be effective. However, there are two problems with that: 1) what if he manages to partially defend the clinch, so your "one strike and out" strategy doesn't work", and 2) what if the knife is already in his hand and you didn't see it (you're actually pulling his knife toward your legs/groin)?

The Thai clinch is a very powerful weapon. Like most powerful weapopns in MA, it has a big weakness for some situations. I'd prefer not to use it, since I can't be sure I'm not in one of those situations. For someone very good at it, the risk might be worth the reward.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Not really, especially if your training actually includes an X-block.



Gotcha. So that is why so many people get clinched up on and kneed is it?

Because they don't know how to x block. 

Do you think this x block is an especially hard or obscure maneuver? That nobody has thought to do this?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'd say a clinch like this can be useful in self-defense if you can use it to completely dominate them and get in a fast, hard shot and get back out. One quick knee, if you've kept him off-balance on the way in (which would slow down his knife-draw), would be effective. However, there are two problems with that: 1) what if he manages to partially defend the clinch, so your "one strike and out" strategy doesn't work", and 2) what if the knife is already in his hand and you didn't see it (you're actually pulling his knife toward your legs/groin)?
> 
> The Thai clinch is a very powerful weapon. Like most powerful weapopns in MA, it has a big weakness for some situations. I'd prefer not to use it, since I can't be sure I'm not in one of those situations. For someone very good at it, the risk might be worth the reward.



There is so much more a bigger picture.

Ok. When you fight everything happens in fractions of seconds. So it is less of just parrying punches while you are thinking about what you may do if a knife comes out. And more about dealing with the threat at the time.

You are doing everything you can at that point to stop getting punched in the head and give yourself a bit of time to figure out what you are doing.

To defend a knife or anything you need to be in a position where you are a bit safe from everything else. Or you will not have a very good chance of spotting a weapon.

If you remain in range and you are not controlling the guy and you are not bashing the guy your ability to defend an attack diminishes. So you can either move back allowing the guy to gain momentum.(or time to draw a knife) or move forwards and clinch giving yourself the advantage.

And look you can do both it depends what you are trying to do.

But this idea that you can't clinch because of the off chance they have a knife will put you in deeper trouble.


----------



## HW1 (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I can have my knife drawn, deployed and striking you in one move basically just with my reaction time (average human reaction time is less than one second).  I carry this FOX DART XT Knife & DART XTTK Trainer with Training (U.S.) DVD (Hand Size: M - XL).  If you then add in the spring assisted knives out there like Gerber Mini FAST Draw Tanto Knife Assisted Opening (2.13" Black Plain) - Blade HQ, that require no practice to use...





Juany118 said:


> I can have my knife drawn, deployed and striking you in one move basically just with my reaction time (average human reaction time is less than one second).  I carry this FOX DART XT Knife & DART XTTK Trainer with Training (U.S.) DVD (Hand Size: M - XL).  If you then add in the spring assisted knives out there like Gerber Mini FAST Draw Tanto Knife Assisted Opening (2.13" Black Plain) - Blade HQ, that require no practice to use...
> 
> Another consideration is you don't run unless that guy, if you closed the distance like that, unless they are DOWN because if they are armed and catch up, you are screwed.



Sometimes when we train, we spar starting with empty hands but have training knives clipped to our pockets to give the option to use it if you think you are losing or in a compromised position. It's amazing how fast knives can be deployed and how hard it is to see when you're stressed.

I will take knees, hooks, and elbows and trade them a slash in the abdomen any day. People who don't train with blades can't easily grasp how dangerous a knife is and will never understand until they do so I find it unproductive to argue with them. Hopefully it doesn't come to a point when they're pooping out of a colostomy bag before they realize this.

Nice knife, BTW.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

HW1 said:


> Sometimes when we train, we spar starting with empty hands but have training knives clipped to our pockets to give the option to use it if you think you are losing or in a compromised position. It's amazing how fast knives can be deployed and how hard it is to see when you're stressed.
> 
> I will take knees, hooks, and elbows and trade them a slash in the abdomen any day. People who don't train with blades can't easily grasp how dangerous a knife is and will never understand until they do so I find it unproductive to argue with them. Hopefully it doesn't come to a point when they're pooping out of a colostomy bag before they realize this.
> 
> Nice knife, BTW.


And if you assume there might be a knife already deployed but not seen, that time gets even shorter.

I have only a small amount of experience with knife-fighting styles, but it was enough to inform some changes in my approach. I can't entirely avoid being in a compromised position where a knife could come to bear, but I can minimize the times I take options that put me there. This difference - having to deal with weapons - is one of the areas where pure sport training misses preparation for defense (obviously, there are areas where it excels, such as learning to take hits and dealing with highly motivated and skilled attackers).


----------



## RTKDCMB (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Gotcha. So that is why so many people get clinched up on and kneed is it?
> 
> Because they don't know how to x block.
> 
> Do you think this x block is an especially hard or obscure maneuver? That nobody has thought to do this?


Why is it that every technique you endorse you seem to think cannot be defended against (especially if it is recorded on video or done in a sporting contest)?


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2016)

I'm going to go out of a limb here and say that if someone is successfully thai clinching you, kneeing you in the face, and outright controlling you,  you're not going to be in the proper state of mind to attempt to reach in your pocket, pull out a knife, open that knife, and begin to stab or slash at the person who has been kneeing you in the face the *entire* time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I'm going to go out of a limb here and say that if someone is successfully thai clinching you, kneeing you in the face, and outright controlling you,  you're not going to be in the proper state of mind to attempt to reach in your pocket, pull out a knife, open that knife, and begin to stab or slash at the person who has been kneeing you in the face the *entire* time.


Agreed. The riskiest point is when you first get them to it, I'd think. The first strike - if effective -should dramatically reduce the change of getting a knife out. So, unless they manage to keep you from getting to a fully-deployed Thai clinch, your danger area is when you are getting into the clinch. This is when they have time and space to get to a knife. Of course, if the knife is already out, this transition is probably the most likely point of attack for them in that situation, too.

Of course, if they manage to stop you from getting the clinch on properly, or somehow block that first strike, then the danger is extended.

Does that seem right?


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I'm going to go out of a limb here and say that if someone is successfully thai clinching you, kneeing you in the face, and outright controlling you,  you're not going to be in the proper state of mind to attempt to reach in your pocket, pull out a knife, open that knife, and begin to stab or slash at the person who has been kneeing you in the face the *entire* time.



Your assumption is a little over broad.  The knees can reduce the chance but it's not just about the knees.

First: drawing a knife and opening it can be done in one motion with one hand.  It is actually easier to do than most of the techniques thus far suggested to deal with the clinch.

Second: even if the above was not true, people tend to forget about that thing that happens in real life fights and not in the ring.  Fight or flight.  In a real life fight with a stranger, when you have no idea whether you are going to live or die adrenaline does crazy things when it comes to pain.

This part is a two way street by the way.  The  guy throwing the knees may not even know he has been stabbed as well.  Initially he may well just feel a punch to where ever, until they feel something wet, start suffering the effects of blood loss or come off adrenaline they will have no clue it was a stab or a slash.

Third: it's a total crap shoot.  When you get someone clinched up do you get enough "good knees" in to actually cause an overall degradation in their performance or did you get stabbed first.

In the end using the Muay Thai clinch is rolling the dice, as are many other techniques for that matter, when it comes to street level encounters.  Points competition (think some Karate and TKD), ring fighting (MMA, Muay Thai etc), street/self defense are all different environments that do have technique overlap but they each also have different "rules" that make other techniques less effective, illegal, even dangerous for you to implement, when you cross the line from one to the other


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

HW1 said:


> Sometimes when we train, we spar starting with empty hands but have training knives clipped to our pockets to give the option to use it if you think you are losing or in a compromised position. It's amazing how fast knives can be deployed and how hard it is to see when you're stressed.
> 
> I will take knees, hooks, and elbows and trade them a slash in the abdomen any day. People who don't train with blades can't easily grasp how dangerous a knife is and will never understand until they do so I find it unproductive to argue with them. Hopefully it doesn't come to a point when they're pooping out of a colostomy bag before they realize this.
> 
> Nice knife, BTW.



I think the last part is the issue.  When people aren't <insert weapon here> people there experience is narrow and so then follows their frame of reference.  Maybe their only experience with knives are swiss army knives or folding buck knives that require to hands to open and/or sit in the pocket rather than simply be clipped to.  Once those were the main types of folders. Beyond that you had balisongs, switchblades and gravity knives but the last three weren't all that common AND usually pretty cheaply made.  That said over the last 25 odd years I have watched as knives often referred to as "tactical folders" became more and more mainstream, especially as the prices for ones of good quality have come down.  When you go to the local flea market you now see these in the case next to the flashy looking stuff.

And thanks on the knife.  When I found the DART I was like "dang that is a great self defense tool" because it is useful without the blade deployed.  It even as a window punch that makes it useful when I respond to the (luckily) rare occasion I need to break a car window to extricate someone.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is so much more a bigger picture.
> 
> Ok. When you fight everything happens in fractions of seconds. So it is less of just parrying punches while you are thinking about what you may do if a knife comes out. And more about dealing with the threat at the time.
> 
> ...



It's not an either or proposition though.  There are techniques, that can be used in close, where you can either maintain an appropriate level of awareness or where you can minimize the opportunity of your opponent deploying a weapon.

Remember in a real fight it isn't even just about people being able to pull a knife.  If you are in a bar they can get a glass or bottle, fast food joint a tray etc.  However if you use "in close" methods that involve first controlling limbs (as but one example) and then, if need be, controlling the core/head, from a flank, you are in a far better position to A. avoid a potential weapon and maintain control B. disengage if A. is unsuccessful

Going "straight up the middle" to clinch to strike or takedown is a far riskier proposition in a "no rules" environment full of weapons of opportunity.  The real incident I noted earlier produced a dead body proving this fact.  The victim who killed his assailant wasn't a trained martial artist, heck he had never been in a "real" fight his entire life.  While not formally trained since High School his assailant was a trained wrestler and had a reputation as a brawler and a history of strong arm robberies, though he was never prosecuted as he was smart.  He either victimized people involved in illegal activity (buying drugs) or immigrants who are in the country illegally (as was the victim who killed him.)


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Your assumption is a little over broad.  The knees can reduce the chance but it's not just about the knees.
> 
> First: drawing a knife and opening it can be done in one motion with one hand.  It is actually easier to do than most of the techniques thus far suggested to deal with the clinch.
> 
> ...



However, we're rolling under the assumption that you're dealing with a thai clincher who is extremely good from that position. Typically when you encounter someone at that level of proficiency, the ability to nail you with "good knees" is a given. Your capability of having the instant reaction of drawing a knife is suspect in this situation because your first reaction is more than likely going to be an attempt to stop the knees from slamming you in the face, or attempting to break the clinch, which requires your hands in front, not reaching into your pocket. Further, you have to deal with broken teeth, a broken nose, and other areas that greatly impact your fine motor abilities, much less the threat of simply getting knocked unconscious. As Drop Bear stated, it is a completely dominant position, and if your enemy is extremely good at it, you're in a lot of trouble, because they can disengage at will and throw elbows, punches, and kicks in very swift succession and place you right back in the clinch again.

Good luck swinging that knife around with any authority with blood choking you from a broken nose and teeth, and your eyes teared up and welled shut from knees and elbows to your face.

Don't get me wrong, you can definitely slash someone from that position.... If the person controlling you hasn't already started delivering punishment. However, if you're already past that point, trying to reach for a knife is pretty futile. As we say in Jiujitsu; You f---ed up a long time ago.


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. The riskiest point is when you first get them to it, I'd think. The first strike - if effective -should dramatically reduce the change of getting a knife out. So, unless they manage to keep you from getting to a fully-deployed Thai clinch, your danger area is when you are getting into the clinch. This is when they have time and space to get to a knife. Of course, if the knife is already out, this transition is probably the most likely point of attack for them in that situation, too.
> 
> Of course, if they manage to stop you from getting the clinch on properly, or somehow block that first strike, then the danger is extended.
> 
> Does that seem right?



Yep.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> However, we're rolling under the assumption that you're dealing with a thai clincher who is extremely good from that position. Typically when you encounter someone at that level of proficiency, the ability to nail you with "good knees" is a given. Your capability of having the instant reaction of drawing a knife is suspect in this situation because your first reaction is more than likely going to be an attempt to stop the knees from slamming you in the face, or attempting to break the clinch, which requires your hands in front, not reaching into your pocket. Further, you have to deal with broken teeth, a broken nose, and other areas that greatly impact your fine motor abilities, much less the threat of simply getting knocked unconscious. As Drop Bear stated, it is a completely dominant position, and if your enemy is extremely good at it, you're in a lot of trouble, because they can disengage at will and throw elbows, punches, and kicks in very swift succession and place you right back in the clinch again.
> 
> Good luck swinging that knife around with any authority with blood choking you from a broken nose and teeth, and your eyes teared up and welled shut from knees and elbows to your face.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, you can definitely slash someone from that position.... If the person controlling you hasn't already started delivering punishment. However, if you're already past that point, trying to reach for a knife is pretty futile. As we say in Jiujitsu; You f---ed up a long time ago.



I think you missed my point.  Your idea seems to rely then on the idea that the skilled Thai clincher is unstoppable once the person is in the clinch.  However I think we all know there is no unstoppable technique.

That being the case I think you greatly under estimate the utter easy of getting a knife out of your pocket and deploying it.  Once deployed, because you are in such a clinch it doesn't even require skill or "swinging", all it requires is blind stabbing and slashing, you will hit something period.  

Here is an example of someone allegedly helpless in a manner similar to what you describe...DKU: West Virginia State Trooper uses knife in fight for his life

The assailant in this case was drowning the Trooper, this is arguably the ULTIMATE panic situation.  The Trooper was also about to pass out but a knife was still drawn from a pocket and did enough damage to the attacker that he needed to be flown to a trauma center and was in critical condition.


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I think you missed my point.  Your idea seems to rely then on the idea that the skilled Thai clincher is unstoppable once the person is in the clinch.  However I think we all know there is no unstoppable technique.
> 
> That being the case I think you greatly under estimate the utter easy of getting a knife out of your pocket and deploying it.  Once deployed, because you are in such a clinch it doesn't even require skill or "swinging", all it requires is blind stabbing and slashing, you will hit something period.
> 
> ...



I never said the Thai clincher was unstoppable, I'm saying once the clinch is applied and punishment is being delivered your ability reach for a knife, deploy it, and counter attack with it is greatly impaired.

BTW, that scenario with the cop was not similar. While certainly a scary situation, we're talking about direct blows to your head from one of the strongest parts of the body over and over again. Keep in mind that people have been knocked out from one single knee blow to the head while in that clinch.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I never said the Thai clincher was unstoppable, I'm saying once the clinch is applied and punishment is being delivered your ability reach for a knife, deploy it, and counter attack with it is greatly impaired.
> 
> BTW, that scenario with the cop was not similar. While certainly a scary situation, we're talking about direct blows to your head from one of the strongest parts of the body over and over again. Keep in mind that people have been knocked out from one single knee blow to the head while in that clinch.



So a person in a completely submissive position on the edge of blacking out in the primal panic of drowning isn't similar to being in a less submissive position getting knees to the face...  If the civilian hadn't showed up and gotten him out of the water, the Trooper would be dead.  Okay.

Yes, people have been knocked out by a single knee but again this simply proves that you are relying on, essentially, the perfect execution and best case scenario for the person using it.  This thread wasn't just about a highly skilled Muay Thai fighter but self defense.  It is foolish in the extreme to argue self defense based on best case scenarios.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Keep in mind that people have been knocked out from one single knee blow to the head while in that clinch.



Keep in mind that people have been knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp.
Sure, it happens, but it isn't actually all that common. And most people are not going to be knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp or by a single knee strike.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

HW1 said:


> Sometimes when we train, we spar starting with empty hands but have training knives clipped to our pockets to give the option to use it if you think you are losing or in a compromised position. It's amazing how fast knives can be deployed and how hard it is to see when you're stressed.
> 
> I will take knees, hooks, and elbows and trade them a slash in the abdomen any day. People who don't train with blades can't easily grasp how dangerous a knife is and will never understand until they do so I find it unproductive to argue with them. Hopefully it doesn't come to a point when they're pooping out of a colostomy bag before they realize this.
> 
> Nice knife, BTW.



So then unarmed vs knife is a bad idea.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Keep in mind that people have been knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp.
> Sure, it happens, but it isn't actually all that common. And most people are not going to be knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp or by a single knee strike.



We are basing our self defence on stories anyway. So if they can pull out pocket knives mid grapple then I can throw ko knees and elbows from the clinch.

I mean we could go back to asking how much of a shot do you have when a guy pulls a knife from six feet away. Says."I have a knife" and then proceeds to stab you.

If we could solve that little issue then maybe I would give up an opportunity get plumb and throw a few free shots at a guy or avoid a few shots from that guy.

On the off chance that he may pull a knife from the clinch. Or has a friend with a knife or was secretly a bear in disguise. Or any other set of conditions that we can make up.


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> So a person in a completely submissive position on the edge of blacking out in the primal panic of drowning isn't similar to being in a less submissive position getting knees to the face...  If the civilian hadn't showed up and gotten him out of the water, the Trooper would be dead.  Okay.



No. Getting choked and drowned is not a similar situation to getting blows to the head from knees and getting your head squeezed and your body wrangled by a properly applied thai clinch.



> Yes, people have been knocked out by a single knee but again this simply proves that you are relying on, essentially, the perfect execution and best case scenario for the person using it.  This thread wasn't just about a highly skilled Muay Thai fighter but self defense.  It is foolish in the extreme to argue self defense based on best case scenarios.



Nonsense. You don't need to be a highly skilled MT fighter to pull off that technique. Many people trained in MMA and self trained are perfectly capable of performing the technique as well. Further, you never stated that your knife counter only applied to unskilled people pretending to know what they were doing, you implied that the knife counter works against the clinch regardless of who was applying It.

Finally, it doesn't require perfect execution, it just requires solid execution, and the clinch provides an excellent opening for your head to get nailed by knees, especially when your opponent is trained to do it. Getting hit in the head multiple times amplifies your chances of getting knocked out.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So then unarmed vs knife is a bad idea.


It absolutely is, but sometimes in self defense you have to deal with bad ideas, hell very bad ideas.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 23, 2016)

So recap.
Getting kneed, elbowed, and put into a Muay Thai clinch by a professional Muay Thai fighter who is skilled will result in a doctors bill.
Getting kneed, elbowed, and put into a Muay Thai clinch by an everyday person who is not trained is something that can be managed and probably defeated with little to no problem.

Kneed or elbowed in the face is never good.  A person may not be knocked out, but their face will hurt. lol


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> It absolutely is, but sometimes in self defense you have to deal with bad ideas, hell very bad ideas.



I thought you had a method of fighting that allowed you to deal with not only getting bashed. But then deal with a knife if it is pulled.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> No. Getting choked and drowned is not a similar situation to getting blows to the head from knees and getting your head squeezed and your body wrangled by a properly applied thai clinch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And you still dodge the main point.  Pulling a knife and stabbing is easier than just about any technique that can counter this clinch/knee combo.  So logic dictates there are only two options.

1. It's is either perfectly executed and the "victim" can do absolutely nothing to prevent getting beat down.
2. It is not perfectly executed and the "victim" can potentially execute counters.  Then deploying a knife and stabbing the "clincher" is more than possible because that is easier than many if not most of the counters.


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> And you still dodge the main point.  Pulling a knife and stabbing is easier than just about any technique that can counter this clinch/knee combo.  So logic dictates there are only two options.
> 
> 1. It's is either perfectly executed and the "victim" can do absolutely nothing to prevent getting beat down.
> 2. It is not perfectly executed and the "victim" can potentially execute counters.  Then deploying a knife and stabbing the "clincher" is more than possible because that is easier than many if not most of the counters.



You can counter a well executed clinch by a variety of methods and just about all of those methods fall under grappling with the main idea of protecting your head and face from blows.

My issue is with the notion of not defending your head and face while you are attempting to go for a knife, and believing that head blows have zero effect on your cognitive abilities. In any situation where you are in an inferior position and someone is raining blows on your head, the FIRST thing you do is defend yourself from the blows. Leaving your head open to more blows multiplies the risk of knock out or severe damage to your head.

Additionally, I never said that it wasn't possible to whip out a knife and attempt to defend yourself. What I said is that attempting to pull a knife while someone is in a dominant position hitting you in the face with a barrage of knees isn't advisable. It's the exact same thing as the ridiculous notion that you should go for a knife when someone is on top of you punching or elbowing you in the head.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I thought you had a method of fighting that allowed you to deal with not only getting bashed. But then deal with a knife if it is pulled.



I am not sure I understand what you are saying.   Knife defense is no different than unarmed defense in one respect, there is no perfect technique.  Getting into any self defense scenario is dangerous, a knife being involved amps up the danger.  There are techniques to deal with knives and getting bashed yeah, but if you remember I said that when you execute unarmed knife defense you basically have to go through the following thought process. 

1. Your focus is to avoid getting cut first and foremost.
2. Accept however that getting cut is a damn good possibility.

Seems like you are back to your strawmaning again.  Wondering why I took you off ignore.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I am not sure I understand what you are saying.   Knife defense is no different than unarmed defense in one respect, there is no perfect technique.  Getting into any self defense scenario is dangerous, a knife being involved amps up the danger.  There are techniques to deal with knives and getting bashed yeah, but if you remember I said that when you execute unarmed knife defense you basically have to go through the following thought process.
> 
> 1. Your focus is to avoid getting cut first and foremost.
> 2. Accept however that getting cut is a damn good possibility.
> ...



Because you thought I would suddenly start believing in your fairy tales mabye?

Strawman?

The whole knife conversation is a strawman. In that someone came up with the idea that head control won't let you see a knife pulled in time to let you deal with it.(kind of incorrect assumption)

And so there is another method(so far unspecified) that will fill the role of head control and let you deal with your strawman knife.

Dude if you don't want to be called out on your make believe. Then you need to put people on ignore. Or engage in less make believe scenarios.

Not my issue resolve that any way you want.


Now will plumb work if someone is suddenly in a tank?


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> You can counter a well executed clinch by a variety of methods and just about all of those methods fall under grappling with the main idea of protecting your head and face from blows.
> 
> My issue is with the notion of not defending your head and face while you are attempting to go for a knife, and believing that head blows have zero effect on your cognitive abilities. In any situation where you are in an inferior position and someone is raining blows on your head, the FIRST thing you do is defend yourself from the blows. Leaving your head open to more blows multiplies the risk of knock out or severe damage to your head.
> 
> ...



Then I would say you are thinking in a "competition" mind set vs a self defense mindset and having such a mindset, can create assumptions that can get you hurt or killed.

If you are being beaten that bad you can justify drawing a knife and stabbing the crap out of someone.  It doesn't make sense to you as a skilled grappler but it makes perfect sense to people lacking that mind set.  It's likely what the now dead wrestler in the call I responded to was thinking as well, "here are the grappling defenses to what I am doing" and while he was thinking that he took a knife to femoral artery and bled out.  

To use a variation of your analogy one could also say that "when pinned on your side the majority of techniques to get free are grappling techniques.  It is ill advised to draw a knife and counter attack when your lungs are filling with water because your are being held down in a creek." Well what was "I'll advised" there worked well.

Last time I checked we were talking about self defense here.  As such the guy you are applying the clinch to is the aggressor, he is a "bad guy".  Ergo, if armed and on the losing end, he will more than likely use that weapon not caring about the consequences.  All he cares about is that his attack ends successfully.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> No. Getting choked and drowned is not a similar situation to getting blows to the head from knees and getting your head squeezed and your body wrangled by a properly applied thai clinch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And we are talking the streets. Which is usually a whole bunch less time as far as the actual fight is concerned. One good crack can decide the outcome.

This idea that people are willing to eat knees from plumb to employ their game is a pretty new one to me.

Everybody I have ever trained with really does not want to eat knees for any reason.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Because you thought I would suddenly start believing in your fairy tales mabye?
> 
> Strawman?
> 
> ...



How, in a conversation about self defense raising the fact, that there are no rules and weapons often become involved a strawman?  If we were talking about in the ring you are so fixated on it would be a strawman, however on the street it is a perfectly valid point to raise.

Your response became a virtual strawman because you created a new argument by purposefully taking a statement by me, regarding knife defense techniques, out of context as I have made it clear, time and time again, that unarmed defense against a knife is a damn dangerous thing to try and pull off but in self defense, your focus cant be myopically focused on "just beat the other guy" like in the ring.

You need to keep environmental factors in mind, you need to keep in mind your assailant may be armed and approach them with this in mind and, if they are armed, accept the fact that even though it is dangerous and SUCKS, you may be forced to deal with that weapon when not armed.  

It's one of the reasons I am almost never unarmed.  I don't carry a gun off duty but I unless I am going somewhere where it is prohibited I always have the knife on me I linked earlier.  If I am going to a bad area at night I often carry this as well. SureFire E2D LED Defender Ultra Flashlight.  500 Lumens to the eyes plus blunt force trauma from the correct strike can be a big equalizer when an assailant draws a weapon.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> How, in a conversation about self defense raising the fact, that there are no rules and weapons often become involved a strawman?  If we were talking about in the ring you are so fixated on it would be a strawman, however on the street it is a perfectly valid point to raise.
> 
> Your response became a virtual strawman because you created a new argument by purposefully taking a statement by me, regarding knife defense techniques, out of context as I have made it clear, time and time again, that unarmed defense against a knife is a damn dangerous thing to try and pull off but in self defense, your focus cant be myopically focused on "just beat the other guy" like in the ring.
> 
> ...



So a knife thrown into the mix that you can't really deal with anyway as a reason for throwing away a viable technique and replacing it with junk. Isnt a straw man?

I m not fixated by the ring and I have easily been in as many street fights as you have so seriously stop trying to be an authority on that.

I put faith in what I can see being used and what I can personally employ.

So if you can replace the plumb by something I can see being used and something I can employ that is fine. Otherwise you are selling snake oil.

Now you are making out street fighting to be a lot less complicated than it is

It is not a bunch of simple rationalisations based on what someone down the pub told you.

It s a bunch of fuzzy concepts that you can use or not use depending on the circumstances you are in at the time.

So one way to negate a knife attack is to finish the fight quickly by maintaining  momentum and having positional dominance. Eg. Thai clinch.

One way to spot a knife draw is to not be distracted defending whatever else they are throwing at you. By maintaining momentum and positional dominance.

It is no good having a back up plan if you are eating punches. You need to deal with that. Then deal with mabye knives.

My torch is better than yours. So there.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So a knife thrown into the mix that you can't really deal with anyway as a reason for throwing away a viable technique and replacing it with junk. Isnt a straw man?
> 
> I m not fixated by the ring and I have easily been in as many street fights as you have so seriously stop trying to be an authority on that.
> 
> ...



By the way on torch defence. The biggest advantage to a SD torch is what you kind of see in that video. If you can see a hundred metres ahead of you. You can see a drama a hundred metres ahead of you.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So then unarmed vs knife is a bad idea.



Of course it is. I think that's fairly self-evident to anyone who isn't under the delusion that Hollywood is reality.
But standing there frozen doing nothing vs knife is an even worse idea.

Personally, my choice vs knife is distance, and a gun. A nice maile shirt wouldn't be bad to have, either.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course it is. I think that's fairly self-evident to anyone who isn't under the delusion that Hollywood is reality.
> But standing there frozen doing nothing vs knife is an even worse idea.
> 
> Personally, my choice vs knife is distance, and a gun. A nice maile shirt wouldn't be bad to have, either.



Yeah but people don't accept that because they really want knife defence to work.

Heck. I really want knife defence to work as much as anyone. But I am not putting my faith in it.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So a knife thrown into the mix that you can't really deal with anyway as a reason for throwing away a viable technique and replacing it with junk. Isnt a straw man?
> 
> I m not fixated by the ring and I have easily been in as many street fights as you have so seriously stop trying to be an authority on that.
> 
> ...





drop bear said:


> So a knife thrown into the mix that you can't really deal with anyway as a reason for throwing away a viable technique and replacing it with junk. Isnt a straw man?
> 
> I m not fixated by the ring and I have easily been in as many street fights as you have so seriously stop trying to be an authority on that.
> 
> ...



First simply because a knife is more dangerous does NOT mean you can't deal with it period.  What it means is that, in self defense situations when you don't know whether or not the suspect may be armed you use techniques that maximize situational awareness and decrease vulnerabilities to weapons vs ones that reduce situational awareness and increase vulnerabilities.  Self defense is NOT about beating the crap out of other people like in the ring, it is about mitigating risk as you defend yourself.  The first step in risk mitigation is situational awareness.

The positional dominate of a Thai Clinch stops effective punching an kicking yes BUT it does not stop what would be an ineffective punch but is now an effective stab because a knife is in the hand and it not only limits perception of the waist/pocket area but also places you in a perfect position for a thrust into the abdomen.

As for your light definitely brighter, no doubt.  I selected my light for the following reasons. 

1. In a real self defense encounter you usually don't know the person is a actual threat until they are rather close.  Also such encounters usually happen in urban areas with some sort of overhead lighting.  It's not like you are in pitch black and need to be aware of a cliff.
2.  Due to number 1 the main purpose of the light is to "dazzle" and 500 lumens does fine.  I don't know about your purposes but even at work, due to the environment of my town, 950 lumens is overkill.
3. If you look at the bezel and end cap of my light they are specifically designed to do more damage and cause more pain when used to strike.

So basically, for my purposes, yours may be different, 950 lumens is the equivalent of using a 12 gauge shotgun to kill a mouse, and I appreciate the additional "meat" on the bezel and end cap of the one I selected.


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Then I would say you are thinking in a "competition" mind set vs a self defense mindset and having such a mindset, can create assumptions that can get you hurt or killed.



Do you believe that there is some mystical filter that prevents a "competition" technique from being effective on the street? A knee to your face has the same impact on you whether you're standing in a ring or in a parking lot.



> If you are being beaten that bad you can justify drawing a knife and stabbing the crap out of someone.  It doesn't make sense to you as a skilled grappler but it makes perfect sense to people lacking that mind set.  It's likely what the now dead wrestler in the call I responded to was thinking as well, "here are the grappling defenses to what I am doing" and while he was thinking that he took a knife to femoral artery and bled out.



The point is that if you're being beaten that badly you're not going to have the mental clarity to reach for the knife, grab the knife, deploy the blade (if its a pocket knife or a balisong) and begin to slice and stab at your attacker. Again, while you're attempting to do all of this you are getting rag-dolled from the neck down and getting kneed in the face.



> To use a variation of your analogy one could also say that "when pinned on your side the majority of techniques to get free are grappling techniques.  It is ill advised to draw a knife and counter attack when your lungs are filling with water because your are being held down in a creek." Well what was "I'll advised" there worked well.



You do realize that there is a big difference between being pinned down and getting consistent blows to your head right?



> Last time I checked we were talking about self defense here.  As such the guy you are applying the clinch to is the aggressor, he is a "bad guy".  Ergo, if armed and on the losing end, he will more than likely use that weapon not caring about the consequences.  All he cares about is that his attack ends successfully.



Again, do you believe that there is some magical filter in place that prevents a knee to the head to be less effective in a given environment? As I've said numerous times, blows to the head effect a wide variety of motor functions and will effect your ability to fight back, especially if your weapon wasn't already deployed when the blows started raining in.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The positional dominate of a Thai Clinch stops effective punching an kicking yes BUT it does not stop what would be an ineffective punch but is now an effective stab because a knife is in the hand and it not only limits perception of the waist/pocket area but also places you in a perfect position for a thrust into the abdomen.



What exactly are you using instead?

Lets see if your alternative works against anybody anywhere before we start adding knives.

Show me what you are doing to stop effective punches and kicks.  Because they will still end a fight in the other guys favor.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> First simply because a knife is more dangerous does NOT mean you can't deal with it period. What it means is that, in self defense situations when you don't know whether or not the suspect may be armed you use techniques that maximize situational awareness and decrease vulnerabilities to weapons vs ones that reduce situational awareness and increase vulnerabilities.



Ok.  So you can deal with a knife uarmed if the situation comes up? 
Or are you constantly going to shift the goal posts. 

So you don't just grapple up.  Throw knees and keep an eye out if he pulls out a weapon.

Because that is just crazy ring talk.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course it is. I think that's fairly self-evident to anyone who isn't under the delusion that Hollywood is reality.
> But standing there frozen doing nothing vs knife is an even worse idea.
> 
> Personally, my choice vs knife is distance, and a gun. A nice maile shirt wouldn't be bad to have, either.



Agreed.  I used to carry off duty all the time.  The problem is my Department's policy changed.  If we want PD liability protection we need to be qualified with the weapon. We used to have a "short" qualification course for off duty carry.  It was the standard course but started at 15 yards and in.  We changed to requiring the "standard" course however.  Due to my body frame, and the clothes I wear, unless I am wearing one of the suit coat, I can only carry small frame pistols like a Beretta 3032 without screaming I have a gun.   Since it has a 2 inch barrel the chances of successfully hitting at 25 yards is kinda problematic.

So in a situation where I am forced to defend myself off duty it all starts with maintaining maximum situational awareness and then techniques that minimize exposure to potential threats.



drop bear said:


> Yeah but people don't accept that because they really want knife defence to work.
> 
> Heck. I really want knife defence to work as much as anyone. But I am not putting my faith in it.



Knife defense is a lot riskier but it can and does work, but because of the risk the first step should be to try to avoid it period. Simply because you haven't learned any effective techniques doesn't mean they dont exist.  You really seem to constantly go in search of videos that specifically prove your preconceptions that what you study is the best way to defend yourself. 
Even if it didn't work, using techniques that arguably say "yes please stab me repeatedly in the abdomen thank you" is certainly not the solution.

Simply because something works well in the ring does not mean it should be a go to technique on the streets, especially when weapons are a potential threat.  They were designed specifically with unarmed fighting in mind.

Btw no one is saying no grappling.  It has been proven time and again that even if you are striking, or drowning, someone while grappling people can draw knives and stab doing major damage.  The trick is what kinda of grappling?  The grappling that works is grappling where you control an arm.  This can not only prevent them from drawing a weapon but it is the primary method of knife defense if the weapon is already drawn.  None of that fancy single handed stuff that allows for other hand strikes either, good old school two handed grappling that allows for control, knees and kicking, take downs etc.

It is at least as effective as a Thai clinch, allows for greater awareness and also allows for you to far more quickly disengage and create distance if necessary.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Knife defense is a lot riskier but it can and does work, but because of the risk the first step should be to try to avoid it period. Simply because you haven't learned any effective techniques doesn't mean they dont exist. You really seem to constantly go in search of videos that specifically prove your preconceptions that what you study is the best way to defend yourself.



The videos are called examples. They are like story's but a truer representation. Saves people thinking I am pulling stuff out of thin air.

So pretty confident unarmed vs knife huh? Good luck with that.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Simply because something works well in the ring does not mean it should be a go to technique on the streets, especially when weapons are a potential threat. They were designed specifically with unarmed fighting in mind



In Thailand which doesn't have many knife fights.

Just because it works in the ring doesn't mean it shouldn't be either.

What works against a trained fighter in the ring will generally also work against an untrained one on the street.

The reverse is not really true.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Btw no one is saying no grappling. It has been proven time and again that even if you are striking, or drowning, someone while grappling people can draw knives and stab doing major damage. The trick is what kinda of grappling? The grappling that works is grappling where you control an arm. This can not only prevent them from drawing a weapon but it is the primary method of knife defense if the weapon is already drawn. None of that fancy single handed stuff that allows for other hand strikes either, good old school two handed grappling that allows for control, knees and kicking, take downs etc.
> 
> It is at least as effective as a Thai clinch, allows for greater awareness and also allows for you to far more quickly disengage and create distance if necessary.



Show me what you think is at least as effective as Thai grappling.

Not sure how you are grabbing these arms by the way.

Ok. Let's shoehorn one concept of awareness here. If you are countering one thing you are less able to be aware of other things. So the less you have to deal with mentality the better.

As shown in this video. Specifically chosen to make my point.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Do you believe that there is some mystical filter that prevents a "competition" technique from being effective on the street? A knee to your face has the same impact on you whether you're standing in a ring or in a parking lot.



No I don't believe there are techniques that don't work, I believe there are techniques you use in the ring that have added risks on the street that should make you reconsider.  There are take downs that in the ring work great because the ring floor is essentially padded but on the street can result in concussions.  I have a coworker that is an awesome wrestler (was All State etc) but admits he has given himself concussions during arrests by instinctively using take downs that would fine on the mat but not on concrete.  There are also techniques that work great in a purely unarmed fight but do not take into account the possibility that the opponent is armed or that they can arm themselves with improvised weapons.  Arts made for the ring, even Muay Thai (which evolved as a competitive art from actual "combat" arts) don't concern themselves with weapons that much because weapons are a non-factor within the rule set.

This isn't to say all of the techniques have added dangers, they don't, many of them are great for the street, but some do add risk due to complications that are absent in the ring.




> The point is that if you're being beaten that badly you're not going to have the mental clarity to reach for the knife, grab the knife, deploy the blade (if its a pocket knife or a balisong) and begin to slice and stab at your attacker. Again, while you're attempting to do all of this you are getting rag-dolled from the neck down and getting kneed in the face.



You keep ignoring a few things here.  First you seem to just not get how easy it is to deploy a specific knife.  The Dart can be opened simply by removing it from the pocket due to the Emerson wave feature.  As a matter of fact, in order for it not to deploy you have to practice A LOT.  A "panic" draw will invariably cause it to deploy.  Due to the ring there isn't even a fear of dropping the dang thing. 

A spring assisted blade can be opened with a simple "push" and an automatic knife at the push of the button.  Then when in a clinch even a blind ineffective punch with put a sharp blade into the human body.  I have provided you with two real life examples where this happened.  Both with people not trained in knife fighting, one of whom was freaking drowning and on the verge of blacking out but you keep dodging this.




> You do realize that there is a big difference between being pinned down and getting consistent blows to your head right?



Yep, thats why I noted the Trooper who was blacking out due to being drowned.  Having your lungs filling with water, and the corresponding oxygen deprivation should equally make it as impossible to draw and deploy a knife as it has a profound effect on fine motor function, same with blows to the head, arguably more profound actually, but the Trooper not only lived but put his assailant in critical condition.




> Again, do you believe that there is some magical filter in place that prevents a knee to the head to be less effective in a given environment? As I've said numerous times, blows to the head effect a wide variety of motor functions and will effect your ability to fight back, especially if your weapon wasn't already deployed when the blows started raining in.



Again no.  I just think your argument is inherently contradictory.  You acknowledge that grappling techniques can be used to escape the clinch and thus the attacks BUT then avoid the fact that the clinch makes you more vulnerable to a concealed knife by saying people wouldn't be able to draw and deploy a knife when it is FAR easier to do this than to execute the grappling techniques.  Heck it's not just contradictory but illogical.  If the knees to the head effected motor function so much then the grappling techniques should be impossible.  Since they are not impossible the EASIER drawing and deployment of a knife is more possible.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> You keep ignoring a few things here. First you seem to just not get how easy it is to deploy a specific knife. The Dart can be opened simply by removing it from the pocket due to the Emerson wave feature. Due to the ring there isn't even a fear of dropping the dang thing. A spring assisted blade can be opened with a simple "push" and an automatic knife at the push of the button. Then when in a clinch even a blind ineffective punch with put a sharp blade into the human body. I have provided you with two real life examples where this happened. Both with people not trained in knife fighting, one of whom was freaking drowning and on the verge of blacking out but you keep dodging this.



So as soon as you get in range you are basically stabbed. Then there is no technique that will prevent this.

And why I don't like story driven martial arts.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So as soon as you get in range you are basically stabbed. Then there is no technique that will prevent this.
> 
> And why I don't like story driven martial arts.



Hey look, your out of context stuff again.  I responded numerous times saying the following.

1. as you engage maintaining situational awareness so you can watch elbows and knees.  if you practice proper scanning this also lets you see the hands and waist band.

2. if you want to grapple, and grappling does work, don't go into a clinch that limits #1.  Go for control of an arm.  If you go for the right arm 90% of the population will not be able to stab or slash, if you are faster they won't even be able to draw because 90% of the population is right handed.  Then with the proper arm bar (like I said none of that fancy one handed crap), you get in as superior a position as the clinch (in terms of control) for striking, though the strikes are to different areas.  You can still strike with kicks to the knees, achillies tendon (both of which can easily disable the opponent) etc or knee the subject, or you can take the person down on their face and you are then in perhaps the most dominant position period.

The above is not "story driven" martial arts but techniques used by PROVEN martial arts like Filipino Kali (unless you consider it's success against insurgents and separatists as the hand to hand system of the Force Recon Marines of the Phillipines "story driven") and Jujutsu.  Since you have liked these guys in the past go to 1:10 for but one example of what I am talking about.






That said these techniques from FMA also work BUT there is a BIG difference between what you see in this video, than the video you linked earlier.  If you find yourself in a knife fight without a weapon you must use footwork and the footwork is a lot "wider" than what you use in an unarmed fight.  The lack of widening your footwork is the biggest problem I see with many "unarmed" fighting systems.  The video you linked earlier showed very little foot work which exacerbated the issues of the questionable techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Keep in mind that people have been knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp.
> Sure, it happens, but it isn't actually all that common. And most people are not going to be knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp or by a single knee strike.


Great. Now I need to train my students on "lamp technique"??


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Great. Now I need to train my students on "lamp technique"??



You have never heard of the "Tiffany Lamp" technique?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> You can counter a well executed clinch by a variety of methods and just about all of those methods fall under grappling with the main idea of protecting your head and face from blows.
> 
> My issue is with the notion of not defending your head and face while you are attempting to go for a knife, and believing that head blows have zero effect on your cognitive abilities. In any situation where you are in an inferior position and someone is raining blows on your head, the FIRST thing you do is defend yourself from the blows. Leaving your head open to more blows multiplies the risk of knock out or severe damage to your head.
> 
> Additionally, I never said that it wasn't possible to whip out a knife and attempt to defend yourself. What I said is that attempting to pull a knife while someone is in a dominant position hitting you in the face with a barrage of knees isn't advisable. It's the exact same thing as the ridiculous notion that you should go for a knife when someone is on top of you punching or elbowing you in the head.


I don't have an experienced MT clincher to try this with - how much temporary protection can you give yourself against both knees with a single hand? Would it be enough to buy time to deploy a knife without dealing with the ringing knees to the head? It seems it might be enough if the knee is on the same side as the defending arm (so the elbow and short-leverage blocks are in play), but seems pretty iffy if the other knee comes in.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> You have never heard of the "Tiffany Lamp" technique?


Well, now it's clear my training is crap. I haven't ever heard of that, at all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course it is. I think that's fairly self-evident to anyone who isn't under the delusion that Hollywood is reality.
> But standing there frozen doing nothing vs knife is an even worse idea.
> 
> Personally, my choice vs knife is distance, and a gun. A nice maile shirt wouldn't be bad to have, either.


Maile, or...I saw this video advertising a cut-proof bag. To demonstrate the bag, they made a t-shirt out of the material. A guy put a dress shirt over it, and they cut him up with a box cutter. The dress shirt was in ribbons, and the t-shirt was unscathed (as was he). To hell with the bag, I want one of those shirts!

To the point, this is something I think some self-defense instructors fail to tell students. Defending against any knife is a bad idea, but sometimes a bad idea is the only thing better than an awful idea (turning your back on a knife that's close, for instance, to try to run). I teach students that they are GOING to get cut. They should do everytying to avoid it, and they should expect it to happen, anyway. That being the case, their job is to get control of the knife and do damage to the attacker as quickly as possible.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I don't have an experienced MT clincher to try this with - how much temporary protection can you give yourself against both knees with a single hand? Would it be enough to buy time to deploy a knife without dealing with the ringing knees to the head? It seems it might be enough if the knee is on the same side as the defending arm (so the elbow and short-leverage blocks are in play), but seems pretty iffy if the other knee comes in.



Well I think the thing is people are really forgetting the impact of adrenaline.  Look at the link I posted earlier of the Trooper being drowned, on the verge of blacking out (in the end he did and if a civilian hadn't pulled him from the water he would be dead.)  So yeah if you land that perfect knee, the guy is "out" and you are good, but if not, it seems illogical to say, as he does, "there are grappling moves that can free you from the clinch" but then turn around and say "even though it's easier than the grappling moves that can free you, you can't draw a knife and stab me with it even when I can't really see it coming."


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Maile, or...I saw this video advertising a cut-proof bag. To demonstrate the bag, they made a t-shirt out of the material. A guy put a dress shirt over it, and they cut him up with a box cutter. The dress shirt was in ribbons, and the t-shirt was unscathed (as was he). To hell with the bag, I want one of those shirts!
> 
> .



The problem with hose t-shirts is that they are only slash resistant.  To get something stab resistant (that is concealable) you need something with special trauma plates/pads as shown in this video...






even then as you can see, the plates don't have universal coverage so you can have proper freedom of movement.

As for your last bit, while perhaps semantics I think "I accept I may get cut."  If you don't truly accept it, simply "know" it, then you may hesitate and that is what will definitely get you hurt.  You have to move as fast as possible and without hesitation in order to minimize the injuries you may likely suffer.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Agreed.  I used to carry off duty all the time.  The problem is my Department's policy changed.  If we want PD liability protection we need to be qualified with the weapon. We used to have a "short" qualification course for off duty carry.  It was the standard course but started at 15 yards and in.  We changed to requiring the "standard" course however.  Due to my body frame, and the clothes I wear, unless I am wearing one of the suit coat, I can only carry small frame pistols like a Beretta 3032 without screaming I have a gun.   Since it has a 2 inch barrel the chances of successfully hitting at 25 yards is kinda problematic.
> 
> So in a situation where I am forced to defend myself off duty it all starts with maintaining maximum situational awareness and then techniques that minimize exposure to potential threats.



Forgive my language, but piffle.
My daughter is 5'2" and she's slim. She can carry a Glock 26 with a mag extension and conceal it just fine.
You're just not even trying...


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Show me what you think is at least as effective as Thai grappling.
> 
> Not sure how you are grabbing these arms by the way.
> 
> ...


That video is more like misdirection which works in the same way.  I'll have to look on Nextflix brain games to see what they say about it it.  The reason it's misdirection is because the eyes follow the ball.  When ever the guy in the animal suit come into the screen the ball is on the opposite side of the screen.  Misdirection still applies to your example of awareness.  If I'm countering being off balance from a Muay Thai clinch then I'm not in a position to counter a kneed to the ribs or to the face.  the moment I get into a position to try to counter the kneed then I'm pulled off balance.

The body will always naturally try to maintain equilibrium and balance. Disrupt the balance and the body will instantly shift all resources to needed to maintain it.  Having the head violently tossed to the side or downward breaks that structure.  Getting kneed in the ribs breaks the structure as well but it introduces pain which the body will naturally try to deal with.  While the person is trying to deal with the pain he is no longer thinking about the balance, so the Muay Thai fighter disrupts the balance.  The counters that I've seen to the Muay Thai fighter have all been things which prevent the clinch from disrupting the balance.

To show proof of your statement of countering one thing you are less able to be aware of other things.  Here's a video of a police officer getting stabbed. Look how long it takes for the police officer to grab his gun. Also take note that the police officer actually picks up the other knife and stabbs the guy back before he shoots the guy.  He was so busy dealing with the danger of the knife that efforts to grab his gun didn't come about until he was able to fight the guy off.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Hey look, your out of context stuff again.  I responded numerous times saying the following.
> 
> 1. as you engage maintaining situational awareness so you can watch elbows and knees.  if you practice proper scanning this also lets you see the hands and waist band.
> 
> ...


I don't think the Muay Thai clinch is the best first move and it seems that's where the discussion of it has headed as if 2 people get into a fight and the first move is to layout a Muay Thai Clinch.  I think that's where the confusion may be but I could be wrong about how others may be seeing it.   For me I see a Muay Thai clinch being deployed when someone attacks with punches and the punches get tangled and from there the clinch would be used.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The problem with hose t-shirts is that they are only slash resistant.  To get something stab resistant (that is concealable) you need something with special trauma plates/pads as shown in this video...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When my Sifu teaches knife defense, the first thing he says to us is that we are going to get cut so we need to accept that and understand that the goal isn't to avoid getting cut as much as it is to avoid being cut in vital areas and preventing repetitive cutting.  I guess it's sort of like people who are worried about getting punched in the face are those who have horrible sparring skills because their focus is on trying not to get hit in the face and not trying to fight back.

If a person is dealing with a knife and the only focus is to note get cut, then there is no focus or effort to prevent being cut repetitively which involves stopping the attacker from being able to use the knife.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Forgive my language, but piffle.
> My daughter is 5'2" and she's slim. She can carry a Glock 26 with a mag extension and conceal it just fine.
> You're just not even trying...



I will admit a couple things I neglected to put in.  Part of it is I am slim (well skinny) and my entire wardrobe is such that I do have a bulge (but maybe one I can detect more easily because I have been trained on weapon detection by the Secret Service.)  

I also said "why bother changing my wardrobe" for the following reasons.  First I focus, in terms of firearms, more so on gun v gun (maybe a bit myopic on my part.).  In my experience bad guys miss far more than they hit.  Bullets need to go somewhere and I am usually with my family and don't want them at risk because drawing a gun makes me, and thus them, a target.  Secondly action is faster than reaction.  I am not wearing my vest or have my radio.  If I draw my gun then I may well end up getting shot first.  So I decided in a gun situation I will give up my wallet and/or be the best witness a DA ever had.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think the Muay Thai clinch is the best first move and it seems that's where the discussion of it has headed as if 2 people get into a fight and the first move is to layout a Muay Thai Clinch.  I think that's where the confusion may be but I could be wrong about how others may be seeing it.   For me I see a Muay Thai clinch being deployed when someone attacks with punches and the punches get tangled and from there the clinch would be used.




I would completely agree with this.  I have no issue with the Thai clinch after the fight has progressed to a certain point.  Whether it be the circumstance you note or the simple fact that when a fight has progressed to a certain point where in you can have a degree of certainty that the opponent doesn't have a knife to pull.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The above is not "story driven" martial arts but techniques used by PROVEN martial arts like Filipino Kali (unless you consider it's success against insurgents and separatists as the hand to hand system of the Force Recon Marines of the Phillipines "story driven")



Just quickly yes.  Thats story driven.  Like the krav is the best because the idf or all the fight i have won because of my lucky red t shirt. 

It is nice but not really a a justification


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Hey look, your out of context stuff again.  I responded numerous times saying the following.
> 
> 1. as you engage maintaining situational awareness so you can watch elbows and knees.  if you practice proper scanning this also lets you see the hands and waist band.
> 
> ...



I can and have transitioned to hammerlocks from plumb. So that Gracie defence is doable from a thai clinch.

I don't have to forgo a clinch to have that knife progression.

Watched the other one and look yeah for knife but really nah for unarmed. You can't effectively chase hands. You do it with a knife because you are not really given the choice.

Otherwise none of that gives me the same tools as the clinch. Which is the ability to counter combination striking and deliver unopposed effective shots.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Just quickly yes.  Thats story driven.  Like the krav is the best because the idf or all the fight i have won because of my lucky red t shirt.
> 
> It is nice but not really a a justification



Well the difference is we have documentation not just that it is trained by but that it was and is used by.  It has been verified that Filipino Guerillas, as an example, used their Bolos in Jungle fighting against the Japanese, yes usually to obtain a firearm but in a Jungle, especially at night, it is possible to close and engage in hand to hand combat.  It is also much like HEMA in that it was THE way to fight for warriors.  It was effective enough to prevent the Spanish from ever taking full control of all the Philippine islands (most notably Mindanao.)

These aren't mere stories they are documented Historical Facts.  That their aren't YouTube videos means of actual combat means little and it is interesting how you dodged the actually substance of that post and again engaged in your typical cherry picking in a vain attempt to continue a defense.

See the way one really defends a point isn't to simply attack the other by cherry picking statements out of context, it's by providing evidence that supports your point.  Instead you make fiat statements and cherry pick.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Well the difference is we have documentation not just that it is trained by but that it was and is used by.  It has been verified that Filipino Guerillas, as an example, used their Bolos in Jungle fighting against the Japanese, yes usually to obtain a firearm but in a Jungle, especially at night, it is possible to close and engage in hand to hand combat.  It is also much like HEMA in that it was THE way to fight for warriors.  It was effective enough to prevent the Spanish from ever taking full control of all the Philippine islands (most notably Mindanao.)
> 
> These aren't mere stories they are documented Historical Facts.  That their aren't YouTube videos means of actual combat means little and it is interesting how you dodged the actually substance of that post and again engaged in your typical cherry picking in a vain attempt to continue a defense.
> 
> See the way one really defends a point isn't to simply attack the other by cherry picking statements out of context, it's by providing evidence that supports your point.  Instead you make fiat statements and cherry pick.



The above is a flat statement without evidence. Now cool your jets turbo. Read the post above yours.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I can and have transitioned to hammerlocks from plumb. So that Gracie defence is doable from a thai clinch.
> 
> I don't have to forgo a clinch to have that knife progression.
> 
> ...



The thing is though in that clinch you likely won't know the knife is deployed until you have already been stabbed at least once.  Going for the limbs first or going for the clinch after you have a degree of certainty that the subject is not armed is far safer and, to be honest, intelligent.


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## Juany118 (Aug 23, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The above is a flat statement without evidence. Now cool your jets turbo. Read the post above yours.



Google "history of the Philippines" and you will see that my comment regarding Spain never completely subduing Mindanao is a Historic fact.  They even went to the extent of outlawing it's practice. Eskrima

You will see FMA was what Killed Magellan .Battle of Mactan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You will also see the use of FMA and various blades documented as being used against the Japanese, especially again, by the Moros of Mindanao.  Heck the US Military documented a defeat of their own at the hands of Bolo wielding FMAers... Battle of Pulang Lupa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So FMA works...period.  Simply because you chose to ignore history doesn't mean it ceases to exist.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Google "history of the Philippines" and you will see that my comment regarding Spain never completely subduing Mindanao is a Historic fact.  They even went to the extent of outlawing it's practice. Eskrima
> 
> You will see FMA was what Killed Magellan .Battle of Mactan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You will also see the use of FMA and various blades documented as being used against the Japanese, especially again, by the Moros of Mindanao.  Simply because you chose to ignore history doesn't mean it ceases to exist.



See now that is evidence.

Of course my mate says that doesn't work on the street so it is irrelevant.
(And if you find that infuriating. Then welcome to my world.)


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The thing is though in that clinch you likely won't know the knife is deployed until you have already been stabbed at least once.  Going for the limbs first or going for the clinch after you have a degree of certainty that the subject is not armed is far safer and, to be honest, intelligent.



Just catch that limb grab it. Secure the guy up huh?

I mean there really are not that many guys who have a high success rate doing that.

That clinch and knee opportunity is there a lot. On the streets.


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## Red Sun (Aug 24, 2016)

*raises my hand, enthusiastically*
I've watched a bunch of videos of knife murders, knife attacks, and knife fights. I can spam you with links if it'll prove something, and i'm allowed to link th LiveLeak, theYNC, and BestGore.

-> The survival rate is low.
-> When folks do survive, it's usually because the assailant gives up and runs away.
-> This is usually a result of wild flailing and crappy wrestling.
-> You don't get the luxury of deciding where/how the fight takes place.
-> There's not alot of pre-contact cues, and even if there was it'd still happen.
-> Running away usually doesn't work (...this may be sampling bias.)

_*In Rory Miller's "Scaling Force", there's an account of a palm strike being used against a knife attack. I've also seen a video of a Chechen picking someone up and throwing them after being jabbed in the stomach with a knife. These are the exceptions, and not the rule._

Why use history (which is abstract) when you can use CCTV footage (which is direct)?

It'd just be nice if we could debate the use of a muay thai clinch against the possibility of a knife without having to talk about FMA history 

Otherwise, i can be insensitive and cruel and say: "I wonder if they used FMA skills to wrap those drug dealers heads in duct tape, shoot them, stab them, and leave them to rot on the side of the road? I wonder if some of those rotting corpses had eskrima training..."

In reality, we react intuitively and hopefully it all works out. In training, we have the luxury of debating whether we want to grab him behind the head, over the arms, under the arms, trap/lock the arm... So, let's go back to doing *that*. Plz 

I maintain that if we end up grabbing someone behind the head, it's best to drag them around and hit them as hard as we can and throw them away.


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## Red Sun (Aug 24, 2016)

I don't even think i'm physically capable of putting someone in a plum, so take it for what it's worth (almost nothing.)


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## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Just catch that limb grab it. Secure the guy up huh?
> 
> I mean there really are not that many guys who have a high success rate doing that.
> 
> That clinch and knee opportunity is there a lot. On the streets.



No not just a "limb grab" I showed you two videos of the techniques. that would work and I think we can both agree that they are more than a simple "grab".  You have to apply legit control techniques.


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## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> *raises my hand, enthusiastically*
> I've watched a bunch of videos of knife murders, knife attacks, and knife fights. I can spam you with links if it'll prove something, and i'm allowed to link th LiveLeak, theYNC, and BestGore.
> 
> -> The survival rate is low.
> ...



The problem is most people don't actually train in how to address a knife.  The entire point of my argument is that it all starts with having adequate situational awareness first and foremost.  Then, if you actually train in knife defense you have a shot.  If you don't you are screwed.  However, even if you train in knife defense, if you open with techniques that limit such awareness you may well not be able to even attempt to use said training until you have already taken some solid hits.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> No not just a "limb grab" I showed you two videos of the techniques. that would work and I think we can both agree that they are more than a simple "grab".  You have to apply legit control techniques.



We are solving two different problems. One does not really adress the issues of the other. 

To solve both issues you would need to transition from one to another.

You have started knife out.  Which is a different game.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> See now that is evidence.
> 
> Of course my mate says that doesn't work on the street so it is irrelevant.
> (And if you find that infuriating. Then welcome to my world.)



If it works in war it works on the street, it's a simple fact.  Fighting for your life is fighting for your life.  Same as MMA.  It works in the ring, it will work on the street, the trick is to use the appropriate techniques.  Some FMA techniques, are impractical for the street because how often might someone have a 20+ inch baton or a ginunting (filipino short sword/machete) on their person in civilian life as they walk down the street?

The last bit is usually because people look at tapping drills and Hubud, Sinawali etc and assume that is how you fight.  It isn't.  They are simply drills designed to demonstrate principles, help cultivate hand speed, learn the different footwork transitions and the like.  The last is, imo, one of if not THE most important bit.  Unlike a lot of other Martial Arts range isn't simply a matter of bridging from no contact>kicking>punching>trapping>grappling range.  Range is also a function of long, medium and short as it related to whether or not you and/or your opponent is armed, with what (if armed) and what techniques are being used (if armed) because all of these have an impact on reach. 

That said the actual application in training is VERY different.  It is taught using different drills and then is largely developed/refined in free sparing, that can be painful.  I have woken up with a swollen hand because I screwed up and a training knife managed to hit between the pads of the gloves with a solid thrust, had bruises that made the wife less than thrilled because I took a hit from the sparring sticks (the padding is pretty thin on em) etc.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> We are solving two different problems. One does not really adress the issues of the other.
> 
> To solve both issues you would need to transition from one to another.
> 
> You have started knife out.  Which is a different game.



The thing is though if you use techniques, to start, that preserve situational awareness you can see the knife when it does come out and if it doesn't, after a certain point, you have a high degree of confidence one is not in play.  If it's the former, you can address the knife or (best case scenario) prevented it from being drawn by already being in control of the limb that could have deployed it.  In the later case, if you are good at it, do the Thai clinch and go to town on them .  

The above essentially encapsulates my argument.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Why use history (which is abstract) when you can use CCTV footage (which is direct)?



Missed this the first time around History is not abstract.  To be abstract is to be theoretical or lacking in concrete existence.  History is anything but, rather it is the record of events that actually occurred.  Various wars happened, the weapons and techniques used in said wars happened.  They are facts not abstract theories.  All a CCTV camera does is provide another way of recording and storing past events, aka a new modern method of recording History. 

The reason for the lack of CCTV footage is simply this.

1. the number of people who study martial arts is small.  In the US, as an example, it's roughly 5% of the population (current population is over 318 million the article sites a study noting 18.1 million study Martial arts)
2. the number of martial arts that focus on techniques that make for potentially effective knife defense is even smaller than that
3. the number of instructors that focus on said techniques is even smaller.
4. it takes a fair amount of training to be able to pull off the techniques, if taught, and the ability to not allow your fear of the knife make you "lock up"
5. the penetration of CCTV cameras is far from universal, I think the UK has the highest penetration
6. CCTV footage that does exist often doesn't make it to YouTube due to privacy concerns.

So we have footage of people using MAs when attacked but of all the footage of people being attacked what % is that really?  Then you add in the factors above regarding training and really the chances of such a video being captured are pretty slim to practically nil.

So you then look to History documented by other means.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> The thing is though if you use techniques, to start, that preserve situational awareness you can see the knife when it does come out and if it doesn't, after a certain point, you have a high degree of confidence one is not in play.  If it's the former, you can address the knife or (best case scenario) prevented it from being drawn by already being in control of the limb that could have deployed it.  In the later case, if you are good at it, do the Thai clinch and go to town on them .
> 
> The above essentially encapsulates my argument.



Exept hand trapping and grabbing doesn't address punches and kicks all that well.  So you raise your risk of getting bashed before that knife ever appears. 

And it doesn't take a heap of shots to put you in trouble.

You will find almost nobody ever pulls that stuff off consistently. In a live environment.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

Viiew from the thai grapple.


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## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Exept hand trapping and grabbing doesn't address punches and kicks all that well.  So you raise your risk of getting bashed before that knife ever appears.
> 
> And it doesn't take a heap of shots to put you in trouble.
> 
> You will find almost nobody ever pulls that stuff off consistently. In a live environment.



If you turn the "grab" into a legitimate "lock"/armbar, as I have repeatedly said, as you see in the Gracie video I posted as but one example, the person is not going to be in a position to strike you (unless they use a counter technique to escape) but you are in a position to strike them.  It is really not anymore difficult than setting up an effective Thai Clinch, the only difference is what you are locking up and locking up the limb.  As an example there is a standing version of the cutting armbar that can be very effective.  It requires use of footwork, and typically a strike of some sort to set up BUT remember the premise of this thread as well...*vs. Untrained.
*


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## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Viiew from the thai grapple. View attachment 20081



LOL, thats as bad as the totally compliant Aikido videos.  You have a person with their arms directly at their sides, not moving or leaning in (remember the main thing that makes the clinch scary is the fact you are disrupting their center, so they aren't balanced) both hands will not be static, your knees will be getting in the way of your field of vision etc.  Also remember how the premise is the knee strikes to the face/head are what, allegedly make it impossible to draw a knife.  You are just clinched there, you aren't kneeing them to the face or head in that position.  Since you like videos so much here is an example.  




So unless you have a very decent height advantage you will be bending that person over to knee them in target area and their upper torso and head are now barriers to your awareness.  Now if you just plan on kneeing them in the stomach, that of course doesn't apply but everything else does.


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## Red Sun (Aug 24, 2016)

I spent the last 20min trying to work out how to make a quote into many quotes. Is blue text okay to distinguish my reply from your original post?



Juany118 said:


> Missed this the first time around
> *...i did think it was a bit strange that you went past that *
> 
> History is not abstract.  To be abstract is to be theoretical or lacking in concrete existence.  History is anything but, rather it is the record of events that actually occurred.  Various wars happened, the weapons and techniques used in said wars happened.  They are facts not abstract theories.
> ...


----------



## Red Sun (Aug 24, 2016)

Let me just add: I agree with what youre saying about maintaining situational awareness and stuff. Its just the stuff youre using to back it up tickles me :/ Whats wrong with using tangible evidence that people can look at with their own two eyes?


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> Let me just add: I agree with what youre saying about maintaining situational awareness and stuff. Its just the stuff youre using to back it up tickles me :/ Whats wrong with using tangible evidence that people can look at with their own two eyes?



Maybe the issue is perspective.  I am a cop, was a soldier, but my first course of study was to be a History Teacher.  Also in ROTC I learned tactics and strategy from Military History.

The CCTV footage you watch is only different in terms of medium from the charts and maps you may see students at the War College in Carlisle using at Gettysburg to explain the battle and the history of Martial Arts that have proven effective is but a further distillation.  From Division, to Battalion, to Company, to Platoon, to Squad, to the Individual when looking at it from that perspective.

Plus the fact I have experience in using various martial arts techniques in real life fights (thanks to the fact I work in a high crime area.  Well not real thanks but you get the idea.) Perspective is everything.

Modern historians, are actually pretty good at weeding through the BS.  Especially when it comes to 20th century stuff (where FMA success is documented as well).  CCTV are part of History as well, and do not require as much fact checking etc. bit they are but a myopic snap shot of a single incident, involving the complications I noted.  

On top of all of the above in your "blue" response you fail to address the SMALL fraction of a population that studies martial arts, then the even smaller fraction that practices effective knife defense and THEN the lack of CCTV penetration on top of the lack of universal uploading to the public sphere.  Hell there was a recent case in the US where the ACLU complained about a Police Department that uploaded body cam video to YouTube and the suspect has threatened to sue. Washington Man Threatening to Sue Police for Posting Embarrassing Body Cam Video of Drunken Antics - PINAC News


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> LOL, thats as bad as the totally compliant Aikido videos.  You have a person with their arms directly at their sides, not moving or leaning in (remember the main thing that makes the clinch scary is the fact you are disrupting their center, so they aren't balanced) both hands will not be static, your knees will be getting in the way of your field of vision etc.  Also remember how the premise is the knee strikes to the face/head are what, allegedly make it impossible to draw a knife.  You are just clinched there, you aren't kneeing them to the face or head in that position.  Since you like videos so much here is an example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If they are bent over you can see over their shoulder if they are straight you can see under it. 

Basically you can see enough. If you want to look for a knife. And you are not dodging punches while you do it. 

Still waiting for a non compliant video that your method works at all.


----------



## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> If they are bent over you can see over their shoulder if they are straight you can see under it.
> 
> Basically you can see enough.



Lol.  Right.... Done and you are back on ignore.  I had hopes for reasonable conversation, obviously false hopes because I linked a history of successfull use militarily, linked videos proving you own selfie post to be self serving BS that wasn't relevant to the debate only to see the same evasive BS.  I should have expected it and not taken you off ignore.  I will never make the mistaje again because even when you dug your own grave with the selfie shot you keep on trucking.


----------



## Red Sun (Aug 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Maybe the issue is perspective.  I am a cop, was a soldier, but my first course of study was to be a History Teacher.  Also in ROTC I learned tactics and strategy from Military History.
> 
> The CCTV footage you watch is only different in terms of medium from the charts and maps you may see students at the War College in Carlisle using at Gettysburg to explain the battle and the history of Martial Arts that have proven effective is but a further distillation.  From Division, to Battalion, to Company, to Platoon, to Squad, to the Individual when looking at it from that perspective.
> 
> ...



If you want to give people a history lesson to prove you can teach them about knife defense, dont let a whiny pest like me stop you 



Juany118 said:


> On top of all of the above in your "blue" response you fail to address the SMALL fraction of a population that studies martial arts, then the even smaller fraction that practices effective knife defense and THEN the lack of CCTV penetration on top of the lack of universal uploading to the public sphere.


_"...i'm not going to go there. This is a can of worms i'm far too inexperienced a debater to have a go at."_


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Lol.  Right.... Done and you are back on ignore.  I had hopes for reasonable conversation, obviously false hopes because I linked a history of successfull use militarily, linked videos proving you own selfie post to be self serving BS that wasn't relevant to the debate only to see the same evasive BS.  I should have expected it and not taken you off ignore.  I will never make the mistaje again because even when you dug your own grave with the selfie shot you keep on trucking.



So you were wrong about not being able to see in the plumb. And you can't find an actual example of your ideas working And are having a sook?

You don't think that reaction is a bit childish?


----------



## HW1 (Aug 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> First simply because a knife is more dangerous does NOT mean you can't deal with it period.  What it means is that, in self defense situations when you don't know whether or not the suspect may be armed you use techniques that maximize situational awareness and decrease vulnerabilities to weapons vs ones that reduce situational awareness and increase vulnerabilities.  Self defense is NOT about beating the crap out of other people like in the ring, it is about mitigating risk as you defend yourself.  The first step in risk mitigation is situational awareness.
> 
> The positional dominate of a Thai Clinch stops effective punching an kicking yes BUT it does not stop what would be an ineffective punch but is now an effective stab because a knife is in the hand and it not only limits perception of the waist/pocket area but also places you in a perfect position for a thrust into the abdomen.
> 
> ...



"My torch is better than yours."
 That pretty much sums up his mentality and motivation in arguing the subject. Don't waste your time.


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## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> If you want to give people a history lesson to prove you can teach them about knife defense, dont let a whiny pest like me stop you



I personally can't teach MA (best I can do is "pointers")  I can teach history and study MA, but that doesn't mean I can teach MA.  I just know what minimizes and increases risk based on the arts I have studied and am studying.  Currently I study an art where you learn knife fighting from the beginning (Kali).  Part of knife fighting is obviously knife defense.

And you aren't whiny btw. 

I am a Vulcan of sorts and so always seek to minimize risk.  As such I enter every encounter assuming an opponent is armed until proven otherwise.  An occupational hazard I suppose.  /Shrug


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

HW1 said:


> "My torch is better than yours."
> That pretty much sums up his mentality and motivation in arguing the subject. Don't waste your time.



Not really.

I mean at least we showed that the whole knife issue was basically a farce.

Which is important for people to distinguish between what should be and what is.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> On top of all of the above in your "blue" response you fail to address the SMALL fraction of a population that studies martial arts, then the even smaller fraction that practices effective knife defense and THEN the lack of CCTV penetration on top of the lack of universal uploading to the public sphere. Hell there was a recent case in the US where the ACLU complained about a Police Department that uploaded body cam video to YouTube and the suspect has threatened to sue.



Yet I can find a video of people using plumb knees in a street fight. In the Philippines. Where you would think they would huge using your tactics.

Which we cannot find an example of.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> As shown in this video. Specifically chosen to make my point.


Speaking of awareness that Moonwalking Bear should know better than to stroll through a bunch of people jumping around throwing a bunch of basket balls around. He could have been injured.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> How sure of these techniques are you willing to be?
> 
> Spotting that knife?


I'm not going to claim I'm sure any technique will give me a great chance of spotting a knife in time. I _am _going to claim (based on my experience both grappling and training with knives) that some techniques are going to make it even _harder_ to spot the knife. The double head control is one of them.



drop bear said:


> The whole knife conversation is a strawman. In that someone came up with the idea that head control won't let you see a knife pulled in time to let you deal with it.(kind of incorrect assumption)
> 
> And so there is another method(so far unspecified) that will fill the role of head control and let you deal with your strawman knife.





drop bear said:


> What exactly are you using instead?
> 
> Lets see if your alternative works against anybody anywhere before we start adding knives.
> 
> Show me what you are doing to stop effective punches and kicks.  Because they will still end a fight in the other guys favor.





drop bear said:


> Show me what you think is at least as effective as Thai grappling.





drop bear said:


> Exept hand trapping and grabbing doesn't address punches and kicks all that well. So you raise your risk of getting bashed before that knife ever appears.



Based on my experience sparring with and without knives, head and inside arm control offers good options for dealing with unarmed attacks, but is superior for monitoring for the appearance of the knife, increasing the odds of preventing the knife being drawn, controlling the weapon arm if it is drawn, or just disengaging and making distance. It's not quite as dominant in a purely unarmed setting, but it's still pretty good.

As I said in my original comment, I wouldn't rule out using the double head control in a street fight, but I wouldn't want to hang out there for very long if I didn't get an immediate knockout or takedown.




Hanzou said:


> I'm going to go out of a limb here and say that if someone is successfully thai clinching you, kneeing you in the face, and outright controlling you,  you're not going to be in the proper state of mind to attempt to reach in your pocket, pull out a knife, open that knife, and begin to stab or slash at the person who has been kneeing you in the face the *entire* time.





Hanzou said:


> The point is that if you're being beaten that badly you're not going to have the mental clarity to reach for the knife, grab the knife, deploy the blade (if its a pocket knife or a balisong) and begin to slice and stab at your attacker. Again, while you're attempting to do all of this you are getting rag-dolled from the neck down and getting kneed in the face.



Possibly, but it's a mistake to assume that the moment you achieve double head control that you'll have your opponent's structure completely broken down and be landing continuous unanswered knees to the head. It's more common for it to be a progression - break their structure a little, land some knees to the gut, break it a bit more, land some more knees to the midsection, and hopefully eventually get them all the way broken down to where you can land unanswered knees to the face. I've had guys caught in the clinch who spent their time trying to answer my knees with punches. The punches weren't terribly effective, but if they had been holding a knife the trade would not have been in my favor.



gpseymour said:


> I don't have an experienced MT clincher to try this with - how much temporary protection can you give yourself against both knees with a single hand? Would it be enough to buy time to deploy a knife without dealing with the ringing knees to the head? It seems it might be enough if the knee is on the same side as the defending arm (so the elbow and short-leverage blocks are in play), but seems pretty iffy if the other knee comes in.


It's not that hard if you know what you're doing. If I were with you in person I could teach you what you need to know pretty quickly.

Basically, your first priority is to keep your head as upright as possible. Step towards your opponent, sinking your hips to get them as directly under your head as you can. Look up, not down at the incoming knees. Looking down makes it easier for the opponent to break your structure. Your left arm fences diagonally between your bodies with your left hand at your opponent's left hip. Use feel rather than sight to counter the knees. When he tries to attack with his left knee, you're making a post to stop his hip action. When he tries to attack with his right knee, catch it on the point of your left elbow. Keep working to get your hips under your head.

A good Muay Thai clinch specialist will have ways to work past this defense eventually, but it should give you plenty of time to deploy a knife with your right hand.



JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think the Muay Thai clinch is the best first move and it seems that's where the discussion of it has headed as if 2 people get into a fight and the first move is to layout a Muay Thai Clinch.  I think that's where the confusion may be but I could be wrong about how others may be seeing it.   For me I see a Muay Thai clinch being deployed when someone attacks with punches and the punches get tangled and from there the clinch would be used.



In general, you're correct. However a street assault situation may begin at much closer range than a ring fight or sparring match, so there may be an opportunity to grab the clinch immediately from the get go.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Aug 24, 2016)

Red Sun said:


> I spent the last 20min trying to work out how to make a quote into many quotes. Is blue text okay to distinguish my reply from your original post?


Just highlight the portions of the quote you want to reply to and you will get a black tab, choose '+quote' and repeat for each portion you chose. In the answer box choose 'insert quotes' and they will magically appear.


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## Red Sun (Aug 24, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Just highlight the portions of the quote you want to reply to and you will get a black tab, choose '+quote' and repeat for each portion you chose. In the answer box choose 'insert quotes' and they will magically appear.



Thankyou!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not going to claim I'm sure any technique will give me a great chance of spotting a knife in time. I _am _going to claim (based on my experience both grappling and training with knives) that some techniques are going to make it even _harder_ to spot the knife. The double head control is one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, Tony. That was a well-explained explanation. I can see that I'll want to learn to do a proper Thai clinch (assuming there's more to the technique than I can already see), so I and my students can practice against it.

By the way, do you have any relatives in South Carolina? I know a Dismukes there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Just highlight the portions of the quote you want to reply to and you will get a black tab, choose '+quote' and repeat for each portion you chose. In the answer box choose 'insert quotes' and they will magically appear.


Or, reply to the post, and place "/quote" inside square brackets where you want to break to reply, then place "quote" inside square brackets after your reply to restart the quote format.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 24, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Google "history of the Philippines" and you will see that my comment regarding Spain never completely subduing Mindanao is a Historic fact.  They even went to the extent of outlawing it's practice. Eskrima
> 
> You will see FMA was what Killed Magellan .Battle of Mactan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You will also see the use of FMA and various blades documented as being used against the Japanese, especially again, by the Moros of Mindanao.  Heck the US Military documented a defeat of their own at the hands of Bolo wielding FMAers... Battle of Pulang Lupa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So FMA works...period.  Simply because you chose to ignore history doesn't mean it ceases to exist.


Thanks for the information. I always like to read about battles.  I've overworked my body so I can read up on these battles while I recover.


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Or, reply to the post, and place "/quote" inside square brackets where you want to break to reply, then place "quote" inside square brackets after your reply to restart the quote format.


That's the way I used to do it before I discovered the 'insert quotes' function.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 24, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Speaking of awareness that Moonwalking Bear should know better than to stroll through a bunch of people jumping around throwing a bunch of basket balls around. He could have been injured.


 ha ha ha. in my hood we would have hit him with the ball for getting in the way and then everyone would see that lol


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Thanks, Tony. That was a well-explained explanation. I can see that I'll want to learn to do a proper Thai clinch (assuming there's more to the technique than I can already see), so I and my students can practice against it.
> 
> By the way, do you have any relatives in South Carolina? I know a Dismukes there.


No relatives in SC that I know of, but probably all the (Dismukes/Desmukes/Dismuke/ other alternate spellings) are related if you trace the family tree far enough.

Some key points on the Muay Thai "plum" clinch:

hands grip the back of the head (around the occipital bone), not the neck
one palm covers the back of the other hand, don't intertwine your fingers
curl your palms towards you and use your body weight to bend their neck forward
your forearms are flush against the opponents collar bones. This provides a barrier to help stop the opponent from driving in close for a body lock or takedown and gives extra leverage when bending the opponents neck forward
squeeze your elbows together, this makes it difficult for the opponent to duck out
you can make the opponent step the way you want by steering their face (twisting their neck) in the direction you want them to go and stepping back with your foot on that side so that your body weight drags them along by their twisted neck. Right in the middle of their step is a good time to hit them with a knee, since it's hard to for them to defend at that moment
after you've hit your opponent with a couple of knees, whip them around and break their balance and structure a bit before you throw another knee. If you keep throwing knees from a stationary position, they have a chance to time your attack and catch the knee and try for a takedown
mix up your attacks, straight knees, curve knees, knees to the thigh, midsection, and head, trips, throws, etc. You can also sometimes let go with one hand just long enough to throw an elbow
Don't reach to get the clinch, *especially not with both hands at once*. That's a good way to get hit. I don't extend my arm more than about 120 degrees when grabbing the head.
When you first grab the clinch, do it with impact - either a forearm strike to the collar bone or a snap down action to the back of the head. That makes it easier to break the opponent's structure.
don't get so attached to the position that you are unwilling to transition to something else if the opponent starts to escape
There's a lot more, especially once you get into counters and escapes and how to counter the counters, but that should get you started.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> That's the way I used to do it before I discovered the 'insert quotes' function.


I've used both. It seems easier to me to use the manual method when I want to reply to several parts of a post. I don't know that it _is _easier, but it _seems _easier.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> No relatives in SC that I know of, but probably all the (Dismukes/Desmukes/Dismuke/ other alternate spellings) are related if you trace the family tree far enough.
> 
> Some key points on the Muay Thai "plum" clinch:
> 
> ...


As I'm thinking through the mechanics involved, I'm seeing some possibilities for this as a transitional position, as well. I need to find an advanced student in NGA to play with (none of mine are yet).


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Based on my experience sparring with and without knives, head and inside arm control offers good options for dealing with unarmed attacks, but is superior for monitoring for the appearance of the knife, increasing the odds of preventing the knife being drawn, controlling the weapon arm if it is drawn, or just disengaging and making distance. It's not quite as dominant in a purely unarmed setting, but it's still pretty good.
> 
> As I said in my original comment, I wouldn't rule out using the double head control in a street fight, but I wouldn't want to hang out there for very long if I didn't get an immediate knockout or takedown.



I was thinking collar tie and wrist control. Or high underhook.  But it is not the topic. I mean there are more dominant clinches.  But you use your tool box. You dont go. "hey thai fighter scrap that.  Do this"

But yeah there are other options like the beef Wellington which really like.





Which also gives you the hammer lock.


(unless they have two knives then you are screwed)

For me and fighting.  The sooner I get them done with the better off I am.  Bad guys suffer from anxiety as well.

So i don't give them a break from the fight to be able to consider options like a knife attack.

So if the plumb gives me free knees.  And a safer move doesn't. The plumb becomes the safer move based on that factor.

Otherwise with weapons threat i cant afford to be hit with unarmed strikes. As that is going to make spotting a knife draw difficult as well.

So there becomes a lot of changes in the success rates of these things.

Otherwise plum is easy to transition in to and for sd you just modify to the one you like.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> As I'm thinking through the mechanics involved, I'm seeing some possibilities for this as a transitional position, as well. I need to find an advanced student in NGA to play with (none of mine are yet).


It really does work well as a transitional position to set up a lot of different tools. It's not limited to the techniques that are allowed in Muay Thai matches.

If you're ever in the Lexington area, you're welcome to drop in and visit. I'd love to trade knowledge and ideas.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I was thinking collar tie and wrist control. Or high underhook


Those are good too.



drop bear said:


> But you use your tool box. You dont go. "hey thai fighter scrap that. Do this"



I wouldn't tell someone who is skilled in the plum to throw out the position and never use it in a street fight. I'm just saying that if you use it outside of competition you need to be aware of additional risks which aren't present in the ring. For me, that moves it further down my priority list (compared to some other clinching positions) and means that I am less inclined to hang out in the position for any extended length of time.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> As I'm thinking through the mechanics involved, I'm seeing some possibilities for this as a transitional position, as well. I need to find an advanced student in NGA to play with (none of mine are yet).



What it offers is a lot of defences to standing grappling leave you open to knees. Defences to knees leave you open to throws.

So you stop getting blocked anywhere near as much.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Those are good too.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't tell someone who is skilled in the plum to throw out the position and never use it in a street fight. I'm just saying that if you use it outside of competition you need to be aware of additional risks which aren't present in the ring. For me, that moves it further down my priority list (compared to some other clinching positions) and means that I am less inclined to hang out in the position for any extended length of time.



Yes. I wouldn't consider it a hang out position. But in S.D. it is kind of a vital entry. (Along with other ideas) because it gives you access to their back and to their limbs.

It saves you trying to grab limbs out of thin air. Or be hanging off a limb with two hands somewhere silly.

Duck under from Thai clinch. (Not really full plumb)


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It really does work well as a transitional position to set up a lot of different tools. It's not limited to the techniques that are allowed in Muay Thai matches.
> 
> If you're ever in the Lexington area, you're welcome to drop in and visit. I'd love to trade knowledge and ideas.


Happily, Tony. I do make it out that way from time to time, and could easily tack on an extra evening.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Happily, Tony. I do make it out that way from time to time, and could easily tack on an extra evening.


Excellent! Just shoot me a message any time you think you'll be in the area.


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## Juany118 (Aug 24, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks for the information. I always like to read about battles.  I've overworked my body so I can read up on these battles while I recover.



If your interested this is actually a good read. Filipino Martial Culture

It isn't a how to book rather a history of FMA.  It is a history of the art addressing not simply the evolution of the art based on the influence of migration and conquest from places as far afield (back then) as the Islamic World , Europe and China, on the original Tribal Arts, but the impact of various revolutionary groups, family styles etc.  It's an easy read and is on Kindle and other platforms.


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## Headhunter (Aug 29, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> I swear,
> Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone). It hurts alot, it immobilises the clinchee, and provides easy takedowns, easy cheesy strikes, and even a standing guillotine. It can neutralise situations or finish them. I believe it's a great self defence move. Thoughts?


You put someone in a clinch and pull their head down to restrain them what target of yours are they closest to? I'll give you a clue if you get hit there you walk funny and talk with a squeaky voice for a few hours


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> You put someone in a clinch and pull their head down to restrain them what target of yours are they closest to? I'll give you a clue if you get hit there you walk funny and talk with a squeaky voice for a few hours


It's not nearly that easy to get to a groin shot from there. Is it possible? Yes. But if they truly are controlling your head and have broken your posture, it's a reach.


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## Juany118 (Aug 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It's not nearly that easy to get to a groin shot from there. Is it possible? Yes. But if they truly are controlling your head and have broken your posture, it's a reach.



It's also just a lot harder to hit in general from any position as it is so instinctive to protect it.


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## Headhunter (Aug 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It's not nearly that easy to get to a groin shot from there. Is it possible? Yes. But if they truly are controlling your head and have broken your posture, it's a reach.


Hey I've used it a number of times with no issue against full aggressive thugs or just a drunken idiot


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2016)

Headhunter said:


> Hey I've used it a number of times with no issue against full aggressive thugs or just a drunken idiot


Did they have you in a full Thai clinch?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> It's also just a lot harder to hit in general from any position as it is so instinctive to protect it.


It is, and it isn't. The times folks think it'd be useful, it's often protected. The times folks feel helpless, the attacker often thinks them so, as well, and isn't focused on protecting his bits. It's certainly not the panacea some have put forth in years past (even in a few fairly recent videos), but it can often be used to break someone's structure simply because they're so busy getting it out of the way so you can't grab or hit it.


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## Juany118 (Aug 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It is, and it isn't. The times folks think it'd be useful, it's often protected. The times folks feel helpless, the attacker often thinks them so, as well, and isn't focused on protecting his bits. It's certainly not the panacea some have put forth in years past (even in a few fairly recent videos), but it can often be used to break someone's structure simply because they're so busy getting it out of the way so you can't grab or hit it.



Oh I wasn't trying to say it never works, but it is tough, and I was more speaking of outright damage vs simply disturbing structure.  I have, disturbingly, found the most effective method of attacking there is "taught" by Master Ken.  You grab and squeeze.  I had to do that one night when an idiot who had tackled and was doing a poor excuse for a ground pound on a medic who had arrived first to give him treatment for a head injury.  I don't screw around when someone is assaulting a person who may one day save my life so I walked up behind and the suspect and grabbed.  Assault stopped rather quickly and I avoided a fight that would have resulted in further collateral damage to the medic.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Oh I wasn't trying to say it never works, but it is tough, and I was more speaking of outright damage vs simply disturbing structure.  I have, disturbingly, found the most effective method of attacking there is "taught" by Master Ken.  You grab and squeeze.  I had to do that one night when an idiot who had tackled and was doing a poor excuse for a ground pound on a medic who had arrived first to give him treatment for a head injury.  I don't screw around when someone is assaulting a person who may one day save my life so I walked up behind and the suspect and grabbed.  Assault stopped rather quickly and I avoided a fight that would have resulted in further collateral damage to the medic.


Agreed. The attack I most commonly teach for that is the "slap and grab".


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## drop bear (Aug 30, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> It is, and it isn't. The times folks think it'd be useful, it's often protected. The times folks feel helpless, the attacker often thinks them so, as well, and isn't focused on protecting his bits. It's certainly not the panacea some have put forth in years past (even in a few fairly recent videos), but it can often be used to break someone's structure simply because they're so busy getting it out of the way so you can't grab or hit it.



And we are still talking about being able to knee a dude in the face. Which is as good as most groin shots.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 30, 2016)

drop bear said:


> And we are still talking about being able to knee a dude in the face. Which is as good as most groin shots.


from a wrestler's point of view, during clinch, if your opponent's knee can hit your face, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

During clinch, when you stand on one leg, there will be nothing that you can do to stop your opponent's body spinning.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> from a wrestler's point of view, during clinch, if your opponent's knee can hit your face, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.
> 
> During clinch, when you stand on one leg, there will be nothing that you can do to stop your opponent's body spinning.



Sweeps?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Sweeps?


Sweep, scoop, hook, spring, cut, block, break, twist, spin, ...

You already have your grips on your opponent. The moment your opponent lifts up his knee and stand on one leg, the moment you take him down.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sweep, scoop, hook, spring, cut, block, break, twist, spin, ...
> 
> You already have your grips on your opponent. The moment your opponent lifts up his knee and stand on one leg, the moment you take him down.



Then sweeps wouldn't work.  One leg off the ground.


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## Buka (Aug 31, 2016)

The first few times you get caught in a plum, by someone who's skilled, you're going to learn a lesson you can learn in no other way. I don't give a damn how good you are. Sounds easy to counter or break, looks easy to counter or break, _it ain't easy to counter or break_. And they'll want to keep you there, not transition anywhere, they'll punish you, right there in that plum. Oh, how they'll punish you.

It's like pontificating on a rear naked choke by someone who's never grappled, "I'd do this or I'd do that,.... of course I'd never get caught in that position in the first place."  Un huh.

Go find a good Muay Thai guy. Get yourself some plums. You'll love em.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Then sweeps wouldn't work.  One leg off the ground.


Here is an example. In this picture, you "sticky lift" your opponent's leg. You then attack his single standing leg. If your opponent knee strikes you, it saves you that extra "sticky lift" effort. When you are standing on one leg, you will have no way to stop your opponent's "body rotation". You will have a very small base and that's your single foot.

This is different from kick that you stand on single leg. When you kick, your opponent's hands have no grips on you. But in "clinch", your opponent already has grips on you, your single leg will put you in danger when you deal with a good wrestler.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2016)

Buka said:


> _it ain't easy to counter or break_.


It's not that hard if you know what to do. But if you know how to take advantage on it, you may not want to break it.

There are many ways to break this clinch. The easiest way is to apply "tearing" and "soft punch" principles.

You can

- Extend your right arm between your opponent's arms.
- Touch your right hand on his right shoulder.
- Put your left hand between his arms and touch the inside of his right wrist.
- Punch your right fist on his right shoulder.
- Step back your left foot.
- Turn back your left shoulder (at fast speed) while striking your left hand on his right wrist.

When your right arm, your chest, and your left shoulder are all in a perfect straight line, you have already break apart that clinch.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> from a wrestler's point of view, during clinch, if your opponent's knee can hit your face, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.
> 
> During clinch, when you stand on one leg, there will be nothing that you can do to stop your opponent's body spinning.


Unless you use the control of the clinch to set him off-balance before you knee. From a static position, he can probably take advantage of the weak base of a one-legged stance. If he's already off-balance, he may not be able to do so in any useful way.


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## Buka (Aug 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not that hard if you know what to do. But if you know how to take advantage on it, you may not want to break it.
> 
> There are many ways to break this clinch. The easiest way is to apply "tearing" and "soft punch" principles.
> 
> ...



Yes, sure, but you've been in them. And know what to do. 

For the uninitiated, it's like a bad dream.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 1, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone).


Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.


Have you ever tried this against an experienced Muay Thai fighter?


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 1, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Have you ever tried this against an experienced Muay Thai fighter?


I used one of the senior students in one of the classes I am in. Experienced Muay Thai fighters are still bound by the same basic physics and body mechanics.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.


If your opponent wants to bend his arms, you should help him to bend even more. When you try to pinch on top of your opponent's elbow joint and try to lock his fore-arm on your chest, he may resist and try to straight his arms. You can then help him to straight his arms more than he wants to.

By using the same strategy. If your opponent is smart, the moment that you try to drop your body lower, he can also help you to drop even more and crash you all the way down to the ground. So the "borrow force" strategy is a 2 ways street.

It all depends on who has better wrestling skill. But in general, during clinch, you should try to make your opponent to feel "unaffordable". That's wrestling lesson 101.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.


I would assume this only works if you catch them before they get it fully on, at which point I'd think they have too much structure for this to force them down unless you catch them in a moment where their structure is off. Am I right?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 1, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.





RTKDCMB said:


> I used one of the senior students in one of the classes I am in. Experienced Muay Thai fighters are still bound by the same basic physics and body mechanics.


The reason I asked is that you seem to have devised a counter for a technique which is not the actual Thai clinch.

In the plum position, the clincher already has his elbows (deliberately) on your chest, so there's no "pulling them down into your chest." Meanwhile his hands are anchored on the back of your head, so if you try to pull down on them, you're just pulling your own head down.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I would assume this only works if you catch them before they get it fully on, at which point I'd think they have too much structure for this to force them down unless you catch them in a moment where their structure is off. Am I right?


You are correct. What RTKDCMB is describing is basically a technique against a double lapel grab, not a Thai clinch. If the Muay Thai guy reaches out for the clinch in an incorrect way and you intercept him before he's locked up his grips, then it might work. If he enters correctly or completes the position, then it will not work.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I would assume this only works if you catch them before they get it fully on, at which point I'd think they have too much structure for this to force them down unless you catch them in a moment where their structure is off. Am I right?



It sounds like you would be helping them. Downward weight via the direction of the elbows is what they are trying to do.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 2, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What RTKDCMB is describing is basically a technique against a double lapel grab, not a Thai clinch.


Not exactly, but it does come from that. I had the student lock his hands behind my head , with his forearms on either side of my neck and his elbows resting on my chest.


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You are correct. What RTKDCMB is describing is basically a technique against a double lapel grab, not a Thai clinch. If the Muay Thai guy reaches out for the clinch in an incorrect way and you intercept him before he's locked up his grips, then it might work. If he enters correctly or completes the position, then it will not work.



I can attest to this. Wish I couldn't, would have saved me a lot of headaches. And a whole lot of knees.


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## JP3 (Sep 9, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Man.  If you want to ever pop on up and throw on a kudo mask so you dont get killed.
> 
> I can show you how difficult that is to do live.



I just got back into this thread and read the above. Glad you pointed that out, i.e. being "in" a clinch which is controlling your head, and thus shoulders, and trying to put any authority into an X-block....

Definitely not going to be able to reach up and engage the guy's face or throat whose got you in the clinch until you have dealt with the clinch itself.

Thus... this whole thread.


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