# Self-defense From Animals?



## Urban Trekker (Aug 16, 2021)

I'm primarily a "preparedness" type of guy, and I just remembered an incident that happened to me about 8 years ago.

I used to drive taxis as a second job, back before rideshare was a thing.

On one particular late evening, I was finished with my shift.  Turned in the cab, paid my lease, and out the door I went.  As I stepped outside, there were a few pitbulls running around the parking lot.  I remember there being at least three.  Likely escaped from the yard of someone who lived nearby.  I tried walking to my car, but the dogs were being "aggressively friendly," if that makes any sense to you.  Jumping all over me, wanting to me play with them... but doing it in such a way that I feared any consequence that might come as a result of me trying to shoo them away.

Then I had remembered something.  I was less than 10 ft away from the door, and inside the lobby, there were gumball machines.  One with candy, one with M&M's, and one with assorted nuts.  I immediately went back inside, and popped enough quarters in to get two handfuls of nuts.  As I walked back outside, I threw the nuts around, and the dogs immediately started grazing on them.  I was able to walk to my car, having completely lost the dogs' attention.

As a result of this, I now keep dog treats in my backpack, just in case.  And I don't even have a dog.

Were it not for my quick thinking in that situation, who knows what could have happened.

I'm curious to know: does anyone else have a plan for self-defense against non-human attackers?


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## CB Jones (Aug 16, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm curious to know: does anyone else have a plan for self-defense against non-human attackers?



Lead snacks offered at over 1000 feet per second.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 16, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Lead snacks offered at over 1000 feet per second.



I really have no desire to harm an animal, let alone take the life of one.

The snacks I buy come in four individually wrapped treats, and have a shelf life of 18 months.  And they'll keep a dog busy for a half hour.  I carry two at a time; one to give away if I see a dog I want to give it to, and the other to protect myself.

I once considered a large caliber handgun - .44 mag or higher - in case I run into a black bear, but everything I've seen leads to bear spray being the most effective option.


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## Buka (Aug 16, 2021)

Bunches of unsupervised, loose dogs is rarely a good thing. Not sure what I’d do.

Treats might be the way to go.

I’ve used an umbrella against a dog before, just defensively. They don’t quite know what to do.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I really have no desire to harm an animal, let alone take the life of one.
> 
> The snacks I buy come in four individually wrapped treats, and have a shelf life of 18 months.  And they'll keep a dog busy for a half hour.  I carry two at a time; one to give away if I see a dog I want to give it to, and the other to protect myself.
> 
> I once considered a large caliber handgun - .44 mag or higher - in case I run into a black bear, but everything I've seen leads to bear spray being the most effective option.



Would peanut butter work better for that situation? 

And then you also have access to peanut butter.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 17, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I once considered a large caliber handgun - .44 mag or higher - in case I run into a black bear, but everything I've seen leads to bear spray being the most effective option.


If you shoot a bear with a handgun, and it notices, it's going to be angry.
The single possible exception to this would be the .500 S&W Magnum. 
Bear spray is a better choice.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 17, 2021)

My Sifu told a story that there was this brown belt guy from a different school and he was walking his dog and there’s this 2 dog that attack him he kick one dog and the other dog he   Did a Kenpo technique as the dog was going to jump him


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 17, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Lead snacks offered at over 1000 feet per second.


that is no joking, why many places with dangerous animals void carry laws or have diffrent for animals.    Even then you have dog patrols in some countries basically being police/voulnteers drive around in a van with rifles shooting every dog they see thats not owned.





Dirty Dog said:


> If you shoot a bear with a handgun, and it notices, it's going to be angry.
> The single possible exception to this would be the .500 S&W Magnum.
> Bear spray is a better choice.


I mean .44magnum revolvers are pretty common to carry for bear.  So the exeption is anything at and more powerful than a .44 magnum for bear.

Long guns generally are more powerful in the same calibre, but the general assesment for what you carry is based on what you are doing, space, willingness to carry, and what animals you expect.  you also have people in this equation still. 

Two, in the same vein you would carry a less than lethal AND a lethal for people, why wouldnt you for animals?    this is not accoutning diseases like rabies which just soldifies why you should probbly carry both, or a lethal. (you can use a firearm to try and scare a animal off as well as it being used to kill it, the same is not true for spray)

Addnedum:  No moral obligation against killing animals to the extreme end for not killing it in defence of yourself was considered or in play when writing the above.   I dont support said ideology to begin with nor share it.   Just read up to the quoted post and saw the pre amble, so needed to shove this here.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 17, 2021)

Now for the OP

The defensive proceedure changes per animal and if its diseased and with what.    But purely weapons based, projectiles seem to work the best and just trying to get out of its attack radius.   That is, throw rocks at it, and retreat to a behind a door or something, or climb to somehwere safe.  You can then shove in more animal specfic things there like shotuing at it, maing yourself bigger etc. (or not)  although throwing rocks at some things just annoys it so you would be better served with shooting it if you can. 

Also, nuts is reallt random, no idea how it worked and was not aware dogs ate nuts.    Seems like a lucky break they A ate nuts, B were the sort to eat anything C wernt diseased and D you had access to nuts via vending machine.
Althougn carrying somethign like treats can work and is a double edged sword, it also means you have food for dogs so any hungry feral ones, or hungry or feral anything that eats dog treats will probbly smell them out and want them.


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## Steve (Aug 17, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Lead snacks offered at over 1000 feet per second.


I believe you.  I've seen videos of cops casually shooting pets.  Brutal stuff.


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## Steve (Aug 17, 2021)

If I'm attacked, I'm out of luck.  I never learned to punch anything, and can only defend myself while on the ground.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 17, 2021)

Steve said:


> If I'm attacked, I'm out of luck.  I never learned to punch anything, and can only defend myself while on the ground.



I remember reading somewhere that choking out a dog is fairly effective, the only caveat being that you want to avoid going to the ground with a dog even if you have to give them a fore arm to lock onto, because being on the ground means that the dog has better access to your throat.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 17, 2021)

Rat said:


> Althougn carrying somethign like treats can work and is a double edged sword, it also means you have food for dogs so any hungry feral ones, or hungry or feral anything that eats dog treats will probbly smell them out and want them.



I actually don't mind giving a treat to a feral dog that wants one.  That's why I carry two.  If I didn't give them away, they'd expire after 18 months and then I'd have to throw all of them away.  It feels like less of a waste if I give some away.


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## Steve (Aug 17, 2021)

Being serious, though.  Dogs aren't really an issue around here.  Lots of dogs, but they're pets.  What we do have are raccoons, which generally aren't aggressive, though they can do a number on a cat if given the chance, and an occasional black bear.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 17, 2021)

Curious thing about black bears: I'm told that if you're unarmed and fight back against a black bear attack, they'll consider you to not be worth the trouble as food and they'll leave you alone.  The only exception to this is a female black bear that thinks you're a threat to her cubs.  Then you're screwed.

Not that I'd ever want to find out first hand whether or not the former is true.  I keep bear spray in the trunk of my vehicle, and will only carry it on my person if I have to abandon the vehicle in a wooded area.


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## CB Jones (Aug 17, 2021)

Steve said:


> I believe you.  I've seen videos of cops casually shooting pets.  Brutal stuff.



I don't know about casual....but I have a couple friends that dog bites have resulted in numerous surgeries.  One had a pretty bad heverything. (Torn tendon)....the other had to have multiple surgeries to his face (pitbull grabbed him by the face)

Forget that....I will choose my safety over a dogs everytime.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 17, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> I don't know about casual....but I have a couple friends that dog bites have resulted in numerous surgeries.  One had a pretty bad heverything. (Torn tendon)....the other had to have multiple surgeries to his face (pitbull grabbed him by the face)
> 
> Forget that....I will choose my safety over a dogs everytime.



I actually don't have a fear of pitbulls, as long as there's only one.  If I have a dog treat, I'll use it.  If not, I've actually seen a pitbull whimper away after getting a soccer ball kick to the head.  I don't know if that same effect will be duplicated every time, but this shows that it can be done.

My understanding is that an unarmed able-bodied grown man is more likely than not win against most breeds of dogs, even if he himself doesn't come out in one piece.

The only breed of dog I'd be likely to curl up in the fetal position from is the Doberman Pinscher, since they're the only dogs that were specifically bred to take down humans.


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## Steve (Aug 17, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> I don't know about casual....but I have a couple friends that dog bites have resulted in numerous surgeries.  One had a pretty bad heverything. (Torn tendon)....the other had to have multiple surgeries to his face (pitbull grabbed him by the face)
> 
> Forget that....I will choose my safety over a dogs everytime.


Didn't mean to suggest that you shoot peoples' pets indiscriminately.  Not intended to be a blanket statement.  But I have seen videos of cops shooting pets that were behind chain link fences and/or tied up for barking.  Literally, cops walking over to pets and shooting them at point blank range.

Just to add, I don't have in mind cops protecting themselves from animals who are actually threatening.  There are a lot of actual court cases and studies with examples of situations where cops are literally shooting dogs because they can do so.  Because dogs are considered property, it's usually an unlawful seizure or 4th amendment complaint.  I can dig up some additional information if anyone's interested. Been a while since I've thought about it, but since it came up....


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 17, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I actually don't mind giving a treat to a feral dog that wants one.  That's why I carry two.  If I didn't give them away, they'd expire after 18 months and then I'd have to throw all of them away.  It feels like less of a waste if I give some away.


Its not really your willingness, just food attract shte hungry.    and i felt the need to point out if you carried food you may equally paint a target on your back as being able to distract them with it.   So basically pointout the potional flaw with it.     

Id probbly just give it to a pound/charity as opposed to feed feral dogs though.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> The only breed of dog I'd be likely to curl up in the fetal position from is the Doberman Pinscher, since they're the only dogs that were specifically bred to take down humans.



I would be surprised if that was the case.


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## Steve (Aug 17, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I actually don't have a fear of pitbulls, as long as there's only one.  If I have a dog treat, I'll use it.  If not, I've actually seen a pitbull whimper away after getting a soccer ball kick to the head.  I don't know if that same effect will be duplicated every time, but this shows that it can be done.
> 
> My understanding is that an unarmed able-bodied grown man is more likely than not win against most breeds of dogs, even if he himself doesn't come out in one piece.
> 
> The only breed of dog I'd be likely to curl up in the fetal position from is the Doberman Pinscher, since they're the only dogs that were specifically bred to take down humans.


I can tell you from personal experience that most people are viscerally afraid of my St. Bernard when she barks at the door, and she's a petit St. Bernard at only 120 lbs.  I have a sign on the front door that discourages people from knocking or ringing the doorbell.  It's not that I don't like talking to people.  It's because I know they are unprepared.

I should add that she's a sweetheart, and her demeanor changes completely once we invite people inside, but strangers don't know that.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 17, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I would be surprised if that was the case.



The breed is actually named after a German tax collector who first bred them.  He needed a dog that would protect him on the job from attackers, and we have Dobermans as a result.


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## john_newman (Aug 17, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I would be surprised if that was the case.


Same.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> The breed is actually named after a German tax collector who first bred them.  He needed a dog that would protect him on the job from attackers, and we have Dobermans as a result.



I would be more surprised if that was the only one.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 17, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I would be more surprised if that was the only one.



You're right.  I know that the pit bull breeds and Akitas are working and hunting dogs, and Rottweilers and German Shepherds were bred to protect and herd livestock.  When we think of "dangerous" breeds, those are a few that immediately come to mind

I did some digging around, and it looks like the Bullmastiff was also bred specifically to take humans down.  This is interesting, because I've never known them to have a reputation like that.


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## Buka (Aug 17, 2021)

I’ve known a lot of Dobies over the years, and the folks who live with them. Tell you a funny story….

A buddy of mine owns several large body shops, good at what he does and an honest businessman, he makes a lot of cash. He’s always been a Doberman guy. He sends away to Germany for a Doberman.  It’s trained there for a year, then brought here and the trainers spend a few days with him taking the dog through it’s paces and getting it acclimated.

He’s had some great dogs…..except one. One of them came, got acclimated, and as soon as the trainers left - the dog jumped onto my buddy’s bed, raised it’s leg, peed on his pillow while deeply growling at him.

My buddy calmly shut the bedroom door, went to where the trainers were staying and had them take it back, didn’t even ask for his money back. His eyes still get big when he tells that story. And I still laugh. All of his other Doberman’s have been great, they always played with my dogs.

I used to work with some canine guys back in the day. Putting on the bite sleeve and full bite suit. First time I did that I remember thinking “What the hell am I doing!” But it was fun and great leaning experiences.

In my opinion, the best “man taker downers” are Belgian Malinois. I’ve been hit in the suit by Pits, Shepards, Rotties, Mainois and several others. But it was always the Malinois that hit me the hardest, fastest and nastiest. No sleeve for me with them, full suit all the way. They were like getting hit with a really nasty jump, back kick that had teeth.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> You're right.  I know that the pit bull breeds and Akitas are working and hunting dogs, and Rottweilers and German Shepherds were bred to protect and herd livestock.  When we think of "dangerous" breeds, those are a few that immediately come to mind
> 
> I did some digging around, and it looks like the Bullmastiff was also bred specifically to take humans down.  This is interesting, because I've never known them to have a reputation like that.



The mastiff I think is a very old breed. (For some reason I equate them to the middle ages)

The boiblol or something like that is a south African breed. That having a look was designed to protect farmers from wild animals. But I have heard it was to protect white farmers in the Apartheid era. And so you can imagine who they were designed to eat.






I have no solution for defending yourself against one of these.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 17, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I have no solution for defending yourself against one of these.


In northeast China, people use stick to attack the wolf's leg. I assume dog is weak on the leg too.

If a dog jumps on you, you can grab it's leg, spin your body, and smash that dog against a tree of street sign.


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## drop bear (Aug 17, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In northeast China, people use stick to attack the wolf's leg. I assume dog is weak on the leg too.
> 
> If a dog jumps on you, you can grab it's leg, spin your body, and smash that dog against a tree of street sign.


They are 80kg which is a pretty big dog to be just waving around.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 18, 2021)

Im pretty sure most dogs can kill or severly injure you, not counting the wounds opening up risks of infection and disease or the transfer of any diseases like rabies. 

You cant really ID the type of dog by the bark, thats why they are good for home protection, as most people wont bother without weapons and they will work as an alarm that can bite people.   If specfically trained to be a guard dog they work better. (although i think technically if employed as a guard dog and trained as such you need to post a sign saying "guard dog in operation here" on your house, per a law i found)


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## dvcochran (Aug 18, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> I don't know about casual....but I have a couple friends that dog bites have resulted in numerous surgeries.  One had a pretty bad heverything. (Torn tendon)....the other had to have multiple surgeries to his face (pitbull grabbed him by the face)
> 
> Forget that....I will choose my safety over a dogs everytime.


My worst dog experience.

We have a very large trailer park in our city. I took a call there in the heat of summer about a dog attack. An elderly man was walking his small dog (I forget the breed but it was very small, Yorkie maybe) and tried to pick it up and run when he saw another dog that was loose. 
Another trailer had four pit bulls; three that were kept on chains and for some reason one was on a rope. The rope was eventually chewed in two and a 168 pound Pit Bull was on the hunt (we later found the dogs were being used for fighting). 
When the pit saw the little dog. it was on. The elderly gentleman was able to pick his dog up and make a run for it but the Pit tackled him from the back and mauled him badly. Like I said, it was summer and all the man had on were shorts and slippers.  The small dog never had a chance.
Another officer and I arrived pretty much to the chaos of people screaming and running and animals of all sorts going nuts. If you have never been to a trailer park, things are packed in pretty tight. My partner had paramedic training and started working on the elderly man while I stood guard. There were some other mongrel dogs loose that had also went nuts and became aggressive but never attacked. 
After the ambulance left, we started circling the trailers one by one (yes, guns out). I came around a corner of the trailer next to the dog owners trailer and saw the lose Pit about 100 feet away. It immediately made a dead sprint bee line for me and there was no doubt what it's intentions were. At about 50 feet I made my first shot and hit him in the left shoulder. It slowed the dog slightly but he kept coming. The second shot hit him in the hind quarters and spun him around. Once again, he kept coming at a surprising clip for an animal that was shot twice. When the dog was about 10 feet away I made a head shot which finally stopped him but still did not kill it right away. Fourth shot put him out. Four shots with a .357. Those in the know understand how fast this took place in a distance of 100'. 
By the end of it all there were 13 dead animals found and the elderly man later expired from his injuries.

I am sure some people will throw their 'should have, could haves' at me. People who have have had the experience of having to make a firing decision understand how much information the mind has to process and how fast it has to happen. 
That was a really bad day.

To the OP, lead treats are your safest bet. 
That said, I fully believe animals have a higher sense of a persons presence and countenance. They know when you are scared, threatened, or a safe friend. SA and how you act toward them is huge. 
That said, there is a point where none of that matters and their animal instinct will take over. When and why that happens is anybody's guess and Not something I am going to leave up to chance any more than I have to. 

Most people on this forum know I am an open carry guy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> If I'm attacked, I'm out of luck.  I never learned to punch anything, and can only defend myself while on the ground.


99% of animal attaks end up on the ground. I read it on the interwebs.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> Being serious, though.  Dogs aren't really an issue around here.  Lots of dogs, but they're pets.  What we do have are raccoons, which generally aren't aggressive, though they can do a number on a cat if given the chance, and an occasional black bear.


Same in my area. If a dog is wandering loose, it's a pet that got loose or one of the few that are allowed to wander (the area is mostly forest). Bears are around, but rarely seen (have had at least 3 in our driveway in the last 10 years).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> I can tell you from personal experience that most people are viscerally afraid of my St. Bernard when she barks at the door, and she's a petit St. Bernard at only 120 lbs.  I have a sign on the front door that discourages people from knocking or ringing the doorbell.  It's not that I don't like talking to people.  It's because I know they are unprepared.
> 
> I should add that she's a sweetheart, and her demeanor changes completely once we invite people inside, but strangers don't know that.


My brother had a Great Dane mix (smallish for a Dane - about the same weight as your dog). He would bark with that big-chested bark if anyone approached the door. When it opened, he fled. Such a wuss.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> You're right.  I know that the pit bull breeds and Akitas are working and hunting dogs, and Rottweilers and German Shepherds were bred to protect and herd livestock.  When we think of "dangerous" breeds, those are a few that immediately come to mind
> 
> I did some digging around, and it looks like the Bullmastiff was also bred specifically to take humans down.  This is interesting, because I've never known them to have a reputation like that.


I think their method of "taking down" (may be thinking of a different mastiff) is to knock them down and lay on them. Effective enough with a dog that size.

Now that I think about it, @Steve, I think you're prepared for this one.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 18, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> The rope was eventually chewed in two and a 168 pound Pit Bull was on the hunt (we later found the dogs were being used for fighting).


Do you mean 68 pounds?  Because the AmStaff is the largest pitbull breed, and that's about what they weigh.  At 168, we're getting into Mastiff/Saint Bernard territory.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2021)

Buka said:


> I’ve known a lot of Dobies over the years, and the folks who live with them. Tell you a funny story….
> 
> A buddy of mine owns several large body shops, good at what he does and an honest businessman, he makes a lot of cash. He’s always been a Doberman guy. He sends away to Germany for a Doberman.  It’s trained there for a year, then brought here and the trainers spend a few days with him taking the dog through it’s paces and getting it acclimated.
> 
> ...


Malinois seem to have no regard for their own bodies when they hit. Others take you down, but Malinois take you OUT.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The mastiff I think is a very old breed. (For some reason I equate them to the middle ages)
> 
> The boiblol or something like that is a south African breed. That having a look was designed to protect farmers from wild animals. But I have heard it was to protect white farmers in the Apartheid era. And so you can imagine who they were designed to eat.
> 
> ...


A slower buddy is the only solution.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Do you mean 68 pounds?  Because the AmStaff is the largest pitbull breed, and that's about what they weigh.  At 168, we're getting into Mastiff/Saint Bernard territory.


Pits - especially mixes - can quickly get much larger than that. My mix is 91 lbs, and I've met larger.


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## Steve (Aug 18, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My brother had a Great Dane mix (smallish for a Dane - about the same weight as your dog). He would bark with that big-chested bark if anyone approached the door. When it opened, he fled. Such a wuss.


Sadie won't flee.  She's a back you in the corner and won't let you leave type.  She's protective, but not vicious.   Our Pyrenees couldn't care less.

We had a Great Dane/Boxer mix.  He was also about 120 lbs, as well. Funny dude... thought he was a human.  He would sit on the couch with me, but whenever the newfie would climb up, he would look at me like, "Hey man.  You going to let the dog on the couch?"


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> Sadie won't flee.  She's a back you in the corner and won't let you leave type.  She's protective, but not vicious.   Our Pyrenees couldn't care less.
> 
> We had a Great Dane/Boxer mix.  He was also about 120 lbs, as well. Funny dude... thought he was a human.  He would sit on the couch with me, but whenever the newfie would climb up, he would look at me like, "Hey man.  You going to let the dog on the couch?"


I love the goofy stuff dogs do.


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## CB Jones (Aug 18, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> 99% of animal attaks end up on the ground. I read it on the interwebs.


Love this video...these dogs are bad to the bone.  They are Fur Missiles.


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## dvcochran (Aug 18, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Do you mean 68 pounds?  Because the AmStaff is the largest pitbull breed, and that's about what they weigh.  At 168, we're getting into Mastiff/Saint Bernard territory.


168. The dog was weighed at autopsy. May not have been full bred pit but that was the weight. I remember every pound of him.


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## Steve (Aug 18, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> 168. The dog was weighed at autopsy. May not have been full bred pit but that was the weight. I remember every pound of him.



They autopsied a dog that was shot four times?  What was the cause of death?


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## dvcochran (Aug 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> They autopsied a dog that was shot four times?  What was the cause of death?


The owner was known for juicing his fighters so they autopsied the dog. Guy is a real POS. 
COD was a lead treats.


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## Buka (Aug 19, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> Love this video...these dogs are bad to the bone.  They are Fur Missiles.


Nice! Man taker downers.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 20, 2021)

Oh just thought on it, a knife works well for this, and they arent the same object as firearms so can fall under diffrent laws.   Probbly best to shoot them, or use projectiles or projectile throwers, but you work with what you have.     Its not always practicle to shoot an animal as well, it could have latched onto somone and 4 people trying to unlatch it might create difficulty in shooting it.

I can think of two things that can remove animal spray from the equation, alergies (either yourself or somone you know/family) and laws.    It could just be unlawful to own/possess the spray yet a firearm/knife/stick could be lawful to own/possess. 

Just something else i have mused on. (you can actually carry a knife where i live, where as you cant a firearm)


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## drop bear (Aug 20, 2021)

I worked with a dog handler and we set dogs on guys a fair bit to be honest.

His advice was to get hold of the collar. Otherwise dogs are a bit quicker and more flexible than we give them credit for so a lot of things like choking them out and stuff you can get caught pretty easily.

He was mad keen on malinois for a working dog by the way.


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## Argus (Aug 21, 2021)

After reviewing the studies that everyone cites for the effectiveness of bear spray versus handguns, I came to the following conclusions:

These studies are not really straight forward, and the narratives around them tend to be biased against firearms, for whatever reason. If you compare apples to apples, I think you'll agree that it's far less clear cut than many would have you believe.

A few differences I noticed are:

The most common studie(s) everyone cites are comparing apples and oranges, in which the bear spray group is measures only those people who successfully deployed (I mean, accessed, and used) their bear spray. The firearms group counts everyone carrying a gun, and includes those who were attacked but were unable to draw and aim under pressure. This is not a fair comparison, because neither is really "easier to do under pressure", and both can be overcome with training. Bear spray does of course have more of an area of affect, but it seems that a very large percentage of the failure of the firearms group was due to simply not being able to access their weapon under pressure, likely as a result of lack of training. There are similar cases among people who carry bear spray, of course, which, unless you've practiced accessing it and carry it somewhere accessible, will not be available under pressure. The lesson? No matter which you carry, make sure it's accessible, and that you have practiced accessing it under pressure, and whilst moving out offline and focusing on a threat. I've practiced this, and I can tell you: you learn a lot, very quickly. What you can do on the range while standing still and focusing on a non threatening target is totally different from something moving at you, and you yourself moving. Forget any kind of front pocket carry, as pockets will seal up the moment you sink your stance and move your feet, not to mention them being extremely hard to find by touch in the first place.

Two other impressions I was left with: It seems that bear spray is the better deterrent, but may not be as effective when the bear seriously intends / is committed to doing you harm. There are an alarming number of cases in which determined bears completely ignored the bear spray and killed their victims. Firearms, on the other hand, seem to be better in this situation, and, contrary to some opinion, have better stopping power. Even rather small handgun rounds have, in a very large number of cases, stopped Grizzly bears, provided the shots were well placed. The downside is mainly that handguns require more training and finesse, and if used incorrectly (where deterrents would be appropriate instead), may encourage a bear that could be deterred to kill you, and you really don't want that if it can be avoided.

So, which is better really isn't so clear cut to me. I'll try to find the studies that I'm mentioning later if I have time so people can compare the details and come to their own conclusions.

I do a lot of bushcrafting and hiking though, and carry neither. A hardwood walking stick and a hatchet are handy, serve other purposes, and in an absolute worse case scenario, give you a fighting chance. Avoidance and learning about bears, bear encounters, and how to avoid them, is probably much more important.

I'm not personally concerned so much with bears as I am wild boar, though -- especially here in Japan, where they are numerous. They're far more aggressive and unpredictable compared to bears, and are extremely dangerous.


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## Argus (Aug 21, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm primarily a "preparedness" type of guy, and I just remembered an incident that happened to me about 8 years ago.
> 
> I used to drive taxis as a second job, back before rideshare was a thing.
> 
> ...



Man, I love that solution.

I'm not really concerned about dogs enough to carry around treats (I usually am really good at dealing with them, even aggressive ones), but I love that sort of solution. It's always best to work with an animal's intent / motives when the opportunity is present.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 21, 2021)

Argus said:


> I'm not personally concerned so much with bears as I am wild boar, though -- especially here in Japan, where they are numerous. They're far more aggressive and unpredictable compared to bears, and are extremely dangerous.


Can you even carry a firearm for said purpose, or even get bear spray? (in japan)

Some form of firearm is your best bet and should be packed if you are wanting anything to do with animal defence and can only carry one thing.  And then that includes people as well.  (because you can use a warning shot, or a blank as a means to try and scare a animal off as well, and if it doesnt you can still reap the benfits of soemthing that can propel lead pretty fast +if you ever get lost you can hunt animals with it for survival)

Plus if your hunting making noise to scare off bear and other things can also scare off the thing you are hunting. (or you could be hunting a bear)

this is excluding the items you shoudl probbly keep on you by default or carry into the woods, so a knife or two, cord, fire lighting etc.

Oh yes, i am also fully aware bear isnt the only thing that can kill you, but it is one of the biggest that can be a threat to you and is pretty common.    And then a lot of things can be pretty dangerous when infected by rabies, and thats also a concern so limiting contact with said animals is probbly for the best.


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## Argus (Aug 21, 2021)

Rat said:


> Can you even carry a firearm for said purpose, or even get bear spray? (in japan)
> 
> Some form of firearm is your best bet and should be packed if you are wanting anything to do with animal defence and can only carry one thing.  And then that includes people as well.  (because you can use a warning shot, or a blank as a means to try and scare a animal off as well, and if it doesnt you can still reap the benfits of soemthing that can propel lead pretty fast +if you ever get lost you can hunt animals with it for survival)
> 
> ...



You cannot carry a firearm unless you are licensed and are hunting (so, not for self defense, and not handguns), but you can get bear spray.

Well, you can actually own certain types of guns for hunting, and go hunting with them -- the licensing process and legal compliance is extremely strict though. I hear gunshots from hunters occasionally, near one of my favorite camping places. My firearms experience is from when I was living in the USA (I'm American). I don't own a gun here, (and may never, unless I feel like dealing with the headache of compliance and really really want to hunt) so it's largely irrelevant.

Knowledge, experience, a walking stick, and tools that serve other purposes will have to do. Or maybe bear-spray...

Actually, you make me a bit curious now if bear spray might be effective against wild boar -- in the sense that, I do not know of anything else one can do to stop a wild boar from continuing to charge you, provided you successfully moved off line and dodged the first pass. Don't really want to try to hit it on the head with a stick or some such as it passes. But maybe spraying bear spray in its path as you move off line could discourage follow up attacks?

Really not a situation I'd ever want to find myself in though.


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## Buka (Aug 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> They autopsied a dog that was shot four times?  What was the cause of death?


The autopsy. I heard the dog was faking.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 22, 2021)

Argus said:


> Actually, you make me a bit curious now if bear spray might be effective against wild boar -- in the sense that, I do not know of anything else one can do to stop a wild boar from continuing to charge you, provided you successfully moved off line and dodged the first pass. Don't really want to try to hit it on the head with a stick or some such as it passes. But maybe spraying bear spray in its path as you move off line could discourage follow up attacks?


From wiki, japanese firearm laws dont seem to be worth it.  (and thats just owning them, it doesnt cover possession and what you can and cant do with them, which i have yet to try to look up)

As for getting rid of boar, youd probbly be best joining population culls and just shooting them.  (it may just reduce the risk of attacks and local population, but its still solving it for your area)

As for bear spray, depends if you mean specfically spray for bears or general spray, because bear spray is just made up of things in qunatities to annoy and deter a bear, i dont know if you can, or if something exsits for boar or other animals.   But now i think back "bear spray" may just be a marketing term for general animal reppelent spray, as i swear i have seen some sold for dogs and other animals (or on things marked as "bear spray" it has a "can be used against" indicator on it)

Id honestly not want to trust in just spray, especially if somethings charging at you though, or if its rabid.  A gunshot tends to work to scare things off, as well as giving you the ability to actually kill it the easiest.    Deterance only goes so far with people, as well as animals in general, plus its kind of hard to stop moving at what ever weight some of these things are once they start.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 22, 2021)

Argus said:


> After reviewing the studies that everyone cites for the effectiveness of bear spray versus handguns, I came to the following conclusions:
> 
> These studies are not really straight forward, and the narratives around them tend to be biased against firearms, for whatever reason. If you compare apples to apples, I think you'll agree that it's far less clear cut than many would have you believe.
> 
> ...



I've never heard of bear spray not working, though I can imagine this being the case in a situation where you have a female bear protecting her cubs.

In truth, wild animals - apex predators in particular - have a very high pain threshold, and are built to withstand even the most brutal melee and cutting attacks.  Which means that you'll pay for anything less than a kill shot with your life.

Chemicals in the eyes, however, are different.  Mother nature didn't exactly prepare animals for this.

I'm also not sure that I could trust my ability to stay calm enough to place a kill shot if a bear was charging at me.  Especially when we're talking about high enough calibers that would be necessary to get the job done.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'm also not sure that I could trust my ability to stay calm enough to place a kill shot if a bear was charging at me. Especially when we're talking about high enough calibers that would be necessary to get the job done.


They arent as hard to shoot as you think, granted you cant just pull out a .44 magnum revolver with literally no other handgun shooting experience, but with sufficent practise you could put all 6 shots into a bear sized target at reasonable range quite fast.  and long guns are generally easier to use, and .44 magnum in a rifle isnt powerful enough to be in the "can hurt yourself" catergory.   As long as you hold and shoulder it correctly your good, may bruise your shoulder though. 

Actually now i think about it, unless they pull out a .22lr for specfically training, you tend to get given a full powered or intermediate cartridge rifle if you want to learn rifle.   Less risk involved than in handgun as far as i can tell.   

I wouldnt really call it a killshot either, if it knocked you down and started mauling you, if you shot it it would have blood loss so something that limits the amount of time it can maul you as opposed to unmolested, or may make it run off after knocking you down or something.  (now dont egt me wrong you can still be hurt and gravely)


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## Argus (Aug 22, 2021)

Rat said:


> They arent as hard to shoot as you think, granted you cant just pull out a .44 magnum revolver with literally no other handgun shooting experience, but with sufficent practise you could put all 6 shots into a bear sized target at reasonable range quite fast.  and long guns are generally easier to use, and .44 magnum in a rifle isnt powerful enough to be in the "can hurt yourself" catergory.   As long as you hold and shoulder it correctly your good, may bruise your shoulder though.
> 
> Actually now i think about it, unless they pull out a .22lr for specfically training, you tend to get given a full powered or intermediate cartridge rifle if you want to learn rifle.   Less risk involved than in handgun as far as i can tell.
> 
> I wouldnt really call it a killshot either, if it knocked you down and started mauling you, if you shot it it would have blood loss so something that limits the amount of time it can maul you as opposed to unmolested, or may make it run off after knocking you down or something.  (now dont egt me wrong you can still be hurt and gravely)



The effectiveness of firearms really is all about shot placement. Let's not forget that many *humans* routinely survive multiple gunshot wounds and go on fighting/running/etc. for a surprisingly long time.

I doubt that a gunshot wound or two delivered to a non-vital target is going to cause enough blood loss in a bear to drop it in time to prevent it from doing whatever it wants to you. I kind of agree with Urban Trekker that, if you're going to shoot one that is charging at you, you had better place those shots well.

A rifle is, indeed, far easier to use than a handgun, as you point out -- and packs far more stopping power to boot.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 22, 2021)

Rat said:


> They arent as hard to shoot as you think, granted you cant just pull out a .44 magnum revolver with literally no other handgun shooting experience, but with sufficent practise you could put all 6 shots into a bear sized target at reasonable range quite fast.  and long guns are generally easier to use, and .44 magnum in a rifle isnt powerful enough to be in the "can hurt yourself" catergory.   As long as you hold and shoulder it correctly your good, may bruise your shoulder though.



The thing we have to consider is the weight and speed of the bear.

It's easier to remain calm when a human being is charging at you.  Think about it: the average running speed of a young man of average health is about 8 mph.  And that's on hard flat pavement with proper running shoes and active wear that's optimized for physical activity.  Change the clothing and the environment, and put a weapon in his hands, and that's going to slow him down significantly

Contrast that with a 400 lb wild animal charging at you at 35 mph.  Emptying a six shooter into that thing before it can get to you, even purely on a "point-and-shoot" basis, is far easier said than done.  I couldn't even imagine trying to carefully place each shot.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 23, 2021)

Argus said:


> A rifle is, indeed, far easier to use than a handgun, as you point out -- and packs far more stopping power to boot.


For the sake of agrument, it was a .44Magnum rifle and revolver.  The barrel length to an extent increases the velocity of the round.  (as well as not all loads being built equal)    Just for ease of argument and example, as there are thousands, if not a straight million cartridges, and the list keeps growing.   Given .44 Magnum is pretty common, and due to being put in both revolvers and rifle builds, has a pretty large barrel length range. 

although now i think back to it, i swear people have hunted bear with AR-15's, unsure of the chamabering. (more self defence hunted, a bear appears near a village in alaska, so they go out and kill it sort of deal)  




Urban Trekker said:


> It's easier to remain calm when a human being is charging at you. Think about it: the average running speed of a young man of average health is about 8 mph. And that's on hard flat pavement with proper running shoes and active wear that's optimized for physical activity. Change the clothing and the environment, and put a weapon in his hands, and that's going to slow him down significantly


Calmness is subjective, and im not really calling it easy, just doable with suffcient practise.    Plus there are also pros to a bear charging you, its bigger, will come right at you,  isnt really concious of mind enough to know what gunfire is/is tuned to run from it and you should be armed with something bigger than you would use to shoot a human.

although parellels can be drawn, the bear and human would be on adreniline (or equal) in the same situation.   Im obviously making the presumption you have shot at a antomically realstic target at least once, or at least understand the bears anatomy to some extent, same with i would presume you would do that if you were planning on shooting people. 

You would also need to follow a similar if not same drill of moving off the centre line while firing, before or after firing to avoid the thing charging at you/momentum carrying its body into you.  (probbly more important given the size of the bear)   I dont recall how good a bear is at swerving, i know you are meant to serpentine to avoid some animals as they are made for striaght line sprints as opposed to endurance, and others would just catch you irregardless. 

Irregardless to all that, id probbly feel better shooting it while ducking and weaving from a bear as opposed to OC spraying it.  (and thats shorter ranged and subject to wind, so more unrelaible)   Granted, if we pick me up and drop me where there are bears, id probbly be armed with a long gun.  (as handguns are banned where i live, but there also arent bear, and so are sprays for that matter)


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## Argus (Aug 23, 2021)

Whatever your method of defense, be it bear spray, a fire-arm, or some melee implement, you should consider the following:

1. How are you going to get out of the way. You do *not* want to just stand your ground with a 400lbs charging you at 30mph. _Keep in mind that you have far less time than you think you do._
2. What are you actually going to carry, and can you access it while moving out of the way of said creature, under immense stress. _Keep in mind that you have far less time than you think you do._
3. In what capacity is that implement effective, and in what capacity isn't it effective: what can go wrong, and how do you deal with that.
4. Really, really, try not to be surprised by a bear, or surprise one. In this instance, you will have no time to react and your options are extremely limited. Not even the best self defense implement will help you if you're on the ground before you can react or deploy implement to your advantage.

One tactic which I came across from an encounter, is when someone in Canada used a hatchet to defend himself. He was able to put a tree between him and the bear in order to slow it down, and access his hatchet and kill it (cutting into its head) after failing to deploy his bear spray under stress. He came away mostly unscathed in the end, quite luckily.

So, in short: Chose something you'll actually be able to carry comfortably and in an accessible way. Position yourself off line and preferably get something between you and the animal, if possible. And, if you carry anything to defend yourself, whatever that be, make sure you can get to it and deploy it, and do so under stress. Can't stress that last one enough. Most people who fail to resist effectively fail as a result of not being able to deploy whatever it is they carry, be it a gun, spray, or what have you.

And, as with any self defense situation, awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, etc. are all the most important places to start.


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## CB Jones (Aug 23, 2021)

The best defense for bear is a hiking partner that is much slower than you...


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 23, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> The best defense for bear is a hiking partner that is much slower than you...


If people are serious about this, I don't think it would really go down like that.  I think one guy will try to trip or push the other guy down before running, and the other guy will be thinking the exact same thing.  So now you've got a stationary struggle, and they'll both get mauled.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2021)

Rat said:


> A gunshot tends to work to scare things off


I doubt that with an animal intent on attack, or rabid (the two you said you didn't trust spray for).


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## CB Jones (Aug 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> If people are serious about this, I don't think it would really go down like that.  I think one guy will try to trip or push the other guy down before running, and the other guy will be thinking the exact same thing.  So now you've got a stationary struggle, and they'll both get mauled.


 A new Martial Art.....Bear Judo


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## CB Jones (Aug 23, 2021)

How about hiking with a mannequin.

Paint a scary face on it in case bears can recognize facial signs.  Have the mannequin in in a threatening body posture.  Maybe have a speaker with threatening sounds.

 Leave it behind while you slip away.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 23, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> How about hiking with a mannequin.
> 
> Paint a scary face on it in case bears can recognize facial signs.  Have the mannequin in in a threatening body posture.  Maybe have a speaker with threatening sounds.
> 
> Leave it behind while you slip away.


Yeah, that might buy you an extra 5 seconds, maybe 10 tops!


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## Steve (Aug 23, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> A new Martial Art.....Bear Judo


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2021)

Steve said:


>


I was wondering when this would join the thread.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 24, 2021)

I raise you all: 





(i think thats the right one, yes its meant to be for comedy value)


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 24, 2021)

Rat said:


> I raise you all:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even if we're only talking about black bears, and not grizzly bears, I'm not sure I'd want whether I live or die to ride on a .357 mag.  Mostly because that's a caliber that's commonly used against other humans, and by people who feel that the .38 sp or 9 mm isn't enough to get the job done.  If the .357 mag becomes the "acceptable" caliber that's necessary to put a man down, lord help you against a bear with that same caliber.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Even if we're only talking about black bears, and not grizzly bears, I'm not sure I'd want whether I live or die to ride on a .357 mag.  Mostly because that's a caliber that's commonly used against other humans, and by people who feel that the .38 sp or 9 mm isn't enough to get the job done.  If the .357 mag becomes the "acceptable" caliber that's necessary to put a man down, lord help you against a bear with that same caliber.


There's some sentiment that the .357 mag overpenetrates in humans. Which would make it more suitable for something larger. Whether that makes it suitable to that task, that's outside my area of knowledge.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 24, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Even if we're only talking about black bears, and not grizzly bears, I'm not sure I'd want whether I live or die to ride on a .357 mag.  Mostly because that's a caliber that's commonly used against other humans, and by people who feel that the .38 sp or 9 mm isn't enough to get the job done.  If the .357 mag becomes the "acceptable" caliber that's necessary to put a man down, lord help you against a bear with that same caliber.


.44 Magnum was the cited calibre at least in my general conversation.    .357 and .44 magnum both in revolvers and in rifle form are pretty common carry for animal defence, configerations change though, you tend to have longer barrels for animal defence due to no concelability requirement and the increse in veolcity barrel length brings, as well as cofnigeration of cartridge. (that meaning, no jacket, hollow points, soft points, hollow points etc)

You choice does tend to be based on waht you own, and what the biggest thing you will find is/more probble threat.   Somone may go into the woods with a .45 ACP just in case they need to shoot animals, or people so they sort of comprimise as opposed to carry a long barreled .44 or pocket pistol.   (bears are sort of a poor example, they arent really pradatory as far as i know, or at least commonly that way towards people, but they are the biggest or one of the biggest things that could take annoyance with you)

(.357 is nothing to be scoffed at though, its pretty powerful)

Also, for the record some media folks belive a .223 Remington is a "squirrel"  gun. 
Its the same calibre as 5.56x45mm (roughly) and its used for shooting about fox/dog sized animals at probbly within 500meters.   Its common where i live for that reason, and the fact you can supress it fairly easily and efficently.  (basically a fox gun for intermediate range)

There are many reasons to choose a 9mm or a .357, and thats if you have a choice and you cant afford to buy a new one and you just inherted one.   One of the selection crtieria is trust, if you have only fired 9mm semi auto, you may not want to switch to carrying a revolver in .357 and vice versa, its what you know, and its what you have.     Dont get that mixed up with saying 9mm and .357 are the same, THEY ARE NOT, but there are many round sout there, many overlap in what they were designed to do so it leaves it to be a prefrence, economic and avability choice more than soley performace.  I will just say, its better something over peneratreates than doesnt at all, the saying is always more is better, not less. (this is not to be taken to the extreme, what if it goes through 6 people, a house and a dog, but rather if it stops at the skin, or goes straight through your choice would be straight through)

Best way i can explain it, there are many pitfalls to fall in and i tried to avoid them which made it a jumbled mess, its kind of hard to explain the most popular rounds are largely avaiblity and trust in it, rather than others being inferior, while also not making it sound like i view the .22LR and .50BMG as the same round.


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## dvcochran (Aug 24, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> There's some sentiment that the .357 mag overpenetrates in humans. Which would make it more suitable for something larger. Whether that makes it suitable to that task, that's outside my area of knowledge.


Fully agree. It is more about the round at this point. While the same diameter, I was always of the impression the 9mm was the 'slip through' round more than the .357. because it is about 300fps faster.
We used both in my LEO days. I would argue that the .357 definitely does more damage to soft targets like body mass.


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