# Boon Hae comparisom of WTF/ITF/Others



## StuartA

Okay, this is a continuation of another thread. In short we are comparing a few moves from various Taeguek forms, their counterparts in the ITF forms and also discussing other applications for them from both Simon O'Neils book (and thoughts), as well as my book & thoughts and others thoughts/teaching.

I choose 3 patterns at random based on (readable) diagrams found via google images and selected random moves from each.

 -----------------------------------------------------
_*The following patterns, images & moves were:*_


_*1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2*_
_http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg_
_*Moves:* 11 & 12_


_*2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)*
http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg
*Moves*: 4,5 & 6_


_*3:* *Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)*
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5SqIYKrmBI/AAAAAAAAADs/neUoNlKqNak/s800/taegeuk+04.jpg_
_*Moves:*__ 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)_

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After review by all the posters involved (plus anyone who wishes to particupate), the moves will be listed via their applications from the follwoing sources:

*A1. Official KKW website applications* - http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03.jsp?div=04
*A2. Official KKW text book applications* (if they differ from the above). *Kukkiwon Text Book AuthorKim Un-yong register number 13-27. March 25 1973 english edition published August 25 2002.*

*B.* *ITF applications* to same/similar moves  taken from *Gen Chois first Ency* (1999 I think)
*C. Simons O'Neils* applications from the *Taeguek Ciper Book* + his own additional thoughts
*D.* Applications from my book (*Ch'ang Hon taekwon-do Hae Sul*) + additional thoughts
*E.* Other applications *taught by Masters* to various posts
*F*. *Additional thoughts* by others


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*Please do not post* any discussions until each of the 3 sets, have most of the relevant information.. then the thread can continue with discussions on them all.

I will update them when the information is available - feel free to email/PM me with any appliactions you may wish to list.

Enjoy,

Stuart


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## terryl965

Ok here is the one from the other thread will translate later and post the english version.

Originally Posted by *StuartA* 

 
_Okay, here they are. I typed "Taeguek" in google images and the first 3 (viewable) diagrams that came up, I selected a few techniques from:

*Number 1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2*
http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg
*Moves:* 11 & 12

*Ok this is form the Kukkiwon Text Book AuthorKim Un-yong register number 13-27. March 25 1973 english edition published August 25 2002. *

*When the opponet delivers an Olguljireugi, one performs an Olgulmakki, One inflicts a counterattack by an apchagi and, pursuing the opponet and then delivers a monitoring Bandaemakki.*



*Number 2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)*
http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg
*Moves*: 4,5 & 6

*Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi.*

*When the opponet delivers a montong barojireugi consecultively*.

*Number 3:* *Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)*
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5Sq...taegeuk+04.jpg
*Moves:* 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)

*Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi.*





There ya go, gotta go, got a class in half an hour. Ill check back later.

Stuart_
I hope this helps out will be back after classes and I wil take it home just in case.


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## bluekey88

Well, in my school, we don't do much in the way of in depth analyses of poomse. It's something I';ve always felt was lacking and have worked hard to to try to research this. I just go tpermission from my instructor to put together an 8 week seminar on poomse analyses for SD. If it goes well, my instructor wants to work this stuff into the BB curriculum.

Anyway, most of what I know is of the K-B-P variety. I still struggle witht he creation of more in-depth moves without resortinbg to previosu Aikido and karate training.

In the first example, the kbp applicatino is two block parrying high level punches to the face. the more in depth analyuses (pretty much what Mr. O'neil writes) could be using the chamber hand of the first high block to pin the arms of an attacker doing a lapel grab while executing a forearm strike to the throat/chin. doing this again, swithcing handsz, the adding the next move...the 270 turn into an inside block could be a transition into a standing arm bar or head strike/throw.

In the second example. the kbp analyses could be pulling back into tiger stance and parrying punch with an inside block...turning and parrying a punch from another attacker and then kicking them. Again, less than satisfactory...perhaps a better application is again from some sort of grab to the left side of my body. I could secure the offending limb with my right hand (chamber) whiel executing a hammer fist strik to the side of the head/neck. Grabbing the offending limb with my left hand I could turn and execute an arm-bar takedown as I turn 180...then knee or kick the now bent over attacker in the face. 

In the last example, the kbp version is a knifehand block to a punch followed up by a spearhand strike to the abdomen, inner thigh, or groin. Better than others, but not necessarily a fight ender. For a better version, i always like using the knife strike as a wrapping up trapping of an attack with the chamber with a knife hand strike to the kneck. The spearhand motion could than be something like clothesline typ throw or projection...something akin to Kokyunage in Aikidousing the deep stance to get ones front leg behing the opponent and using your body weight to unblance them over your leg.

Hoep this makes sense and i'm REALLY not trying to plagiarize Mr. O'neil or anytone else...I'm still new at this stuff though 

Peace,
Erik


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## terryl965

Here is Eric from the other thread as well.

Well, in my school, we don't do much in the way of in depth analyses of poomse. It's something I';ve always felt was lacking and have worked hard to to try to research this. I just go tpermission from my instructor to put together an 8 week seminar on poomse analyses for SD. If it goes well, my instructor wants to work this stuff into the BB curriculum.

Anyway, most of what I know is of the K-B-P variety. I still struggle witht he creation of more in-depth moves without resortinbg to previosu Aikido and karate training.

In the first example, the kbp applicatino is two block parrying high level punches to the face. the more in depth analyuses (pretty much what Mr. O'neil writes) could be using the chamber hand of the first high block to pin the arms of an attacker doing a lapel grab while executing a forearm strike to the throat/chin. doing this again, swithcing handsz, the adding the next move...the 270 turn into an inside block could be a transition into a standing arm bar or head strike/throw.

In the second example. the kbp analyses could be pulling back into tiger stance and parrying punch with an inside block...turning and parrying a punch from another attacker and then kicking them. Again, less than satisfactory...perhaps a better application is again from some sort of grab to the left side of my body. I could secure the offending limb with my right hand (chamber) whiel executing a hammer fist strik to the side of the head/neck. Grabbing the offending limb with my left hand I could turn and execute an arm-bar takedown as I turn 180...then knee or kick the now bent over attacker in the face. 

In the last example, the kbp version is a knifehand block to a punch followed up by a spearhand strike to the abdomen, inner thigh, or groin. Better than others, but not necessarily a fight ender. For a better version, i always like using the knife strike as a wrapping up trapping of an attack with the chamber with a knife hand strike to the kneck. The spearhand motion could than be something like clothesline typ throw or projection...something akin to Kokyunage in Aikidousing the deep stance to get ones front leg behing the opponent and using your body weight to unblance them over your leg.

Hoep this makes sense and i'm REALLY not trying to plagiarize Mr. O'neil or anytone else...I'm still new at this stuff though 

Peace,
Erik


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## terryl965

OK ball is rolling here let get more input from those wise people we have here.


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## StuartA

Guys, you obviously missed the bit in my last post that said _"__*Please do not post* any discussions until each of the 3 sets, have most of the relevant information" _- now I cant edit the first post. :shock:

Oh, well.. Ill  do it again and head it... *latest* or something


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## granfire

Sorry to be the dork here, but what is it you are wanting to discuss?

I am a bit lost here.

(BTW the second link did not work for me)


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## StuartA

granfire said:


> Sorry to be the dork here, but what is it you are wanting to discuss?
> 
> I am a bit lost here.
> 
> (BTW the second link did not work for me)


 
See: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67936&page=9

(scroll down to last few posts).. feel free to get involved.. the more the merrier

Regards,

Stuart


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## StuartA

Okay... I have compiled lots of stuff... so the following 3 posts relate to each of the 3 technique/s & their applications

Stand by,

Stuart


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## StuartA

*Number 1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2*_
__http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg__
*Moves:* 11 & 12_​_
*A1 (Kukkikwon Wed Site): *Based on the shown applications on the WTF Website listed as (move 13 instead of 11/12) the rising block blocks a straight punch/high._

*A2 (Kukkikwon Text book):*  When the opponet delivers an Olguljireugi, one performs an Olgulmakki, One inflicts a counterattack by an apchagi and, pursuing the opponet and then delivers a monitoring Bandaemakki.

*B (Gen Choi Ency): *_Found in ITF pattern, Dan-Gun.  Application shown to block a downward knifehand strike as well as a downward strike with a pole_

*C (Simon O&#8217;Neill/Taeguek Cipher):*  Attacker pushes you up against a wall with both hands. Bring your left  forearm over the top of his arms, slam it down into the crooks of his  elbows then immediately drive upwards under his jaw. Push off with  back foot and thrust forwards, striking the jaw again with the second  rising forearm. Finish by underhooking his left arm with your right,  gripping the back of his neck with your left, turning 270º ACW and  driving him head first into the wall.

*D (Stuart Anslow/TKD Hae Sul book):*_  Both used together as an elbow break (from a head grab) or a shoulder lock_

*E (Applications from masters/high ranks):*_ Patrick McCarthy (6th degree ITF + BB in other arts/40+ years experience) teaches this similar to my application (elbow break) but as a shoulder dislocation technique._
_
*F (Other view/opinions/learnings):* Eric (Bluekey88): _the kbp applicatino is two block parrying high level punches to the face. the more in depth analyuses (pretty much what Mr. O'neil writes) could be using the chamber hand of the first high block to pin the arms of an attacker doing a lapel grab while executing a forearm strike to the throat/chin. doing this again, swithcing handsz, the adding the next move...the 270 turn into an inside block could be a transition into a standing arm bar or head strike/throw.


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## StuartA

*Number 2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)*_
__http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg__
*Moves*: 4,5 & 6_​
*A1 (Kukkikwon Wed Site): *Based on the shown applications on the WTF Website (2,3 & 4) Move #5 Defends against a right punch, and follows (#6) with a front snap kick to stomach. Move #7 then blocks against a left punch.

*A2 (Kukkikwon Text book):* Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi, When the opponet delivers a montong barojireugi consecultively

*B (Gen Choi Ency):*_  AFAIK, apart from the inward block (move 4) and a front kick, the ITF does not have a combination of this type that I can think of. The low knifehand performed in that way isn&#8217;t in any of the ITF patterns up to 4th degree (though I could be wrong lol)_

*C (Simon O&#8217;Neill/Taeguek Cipher):*  Double lapel grab, sit weight back into cat stance and strike the  outside of the attacker?s right arm just above or below the elbow with  the heel of the left hand, securing his hand with the right hand. This  will make him turn inwards, allowing you to attack the outside of his  right knee with a forward stamping kick. Meanwhile, locate his right  wrist with the left hand and his right elbow with the right hand, and  perform a backward arm throw using the forearm block motion as you  fall back into cat stance after the kick

*D (Stuart Anslow/TKD Hae Sul book):*_ At first glance I would say 5,6 & 7  looks like a combination as opposed to 4, 5 & 6 (the randomly selected ones above); with the downward knifehand (#4) a release from a clothing grab (ie. Strike to the PPs on the arm), followed by a front kick or knee (depending on distance) and finished with a downward elbow strike to the back of the now bent over opponent)_

*E (Applications from masters/high ranks): *

*F (Other view/opinions/learnings):*_Eric (Bluekey88): _the kbp analyses could be pulling back into tiger stance and parrying punch with an inside block...turning and parrying a punch from another attacker and then kicking them. Again, less than satisfactory...perhaps a better application is again from some sort of grab to the left side of my body. I could secure the offending limb with my right hand (chamber) whiel executing a hammer fist strik to the side of the head/neck. Grabbing the offending limb with my left hand I could turn and execute an arm-bar takedown as I turn 180...then knee or kick the now bent over attacker in the face.


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## StuartA

*Number 3:*_ *Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)*
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5SqIYKrmBI/AAAAAAAAADs/neUoNlKqNak/s800/taegeuk+04.jpg
*Moves:* 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)_​
*A1 (Kukkikwon Wed Site): *Based on the shown applications on the WTF Website (moves 2 & 3 instead of 4 & 5), move #4 would be to blocks a left punch using front (knife)hand only & move #5 then blocks a right punch, then strikes with fingertips to solar plexus.

*A2 (Kukkikwon Text book):* Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi.

*B (Gen Choi Ency):*_  Moves 4 & 5 can be found in pattern Do-San, whilst move 6 can be found in pattern Choong-Moo. For 4 & 5 the text book applications are #4 blocks a right punch using front hand only, #5 is a fingertip strike to solar plexus with other hand parrying a left hand punch!! The combination of moves (4&5) also appear in Won-Hyo and they show the knifehand blocking a side kick (front hand only utilised again) and the fingertip thrust parrying short stick swung upwards, whilst again striking to solar plexus. Move 6 is shown as an attack with the lead (knife) hand to throat, with the other hand doing nothing. As a note, the preceding movement was a twin knifehand block, shown blocking a punch with the front hand and a pole with the with the rising hand!!!_

*C (Simon O&#8217;Neill/Taeguek Cipher):*  At close range, clear his right arm outwards with your left, then step  forwards and strike the right side of his neck, jaw or collar bone  with the right knifehand. Overhook the left arm with your right so  that your forearm is pulling up on the back of his arm. Step through  with a crescent step on his left side so that your left foot goes  behind him, and sweep the spearhand arm across his chest or neck to  take him down while locking his arm. I use the next movement as part  of a separate application

*D (Stuart Anslow/TKD Hae Sul book):*_  In my book I offer a parry and strike application (#4), followed by a shoulder throw (#5)  or hip throw (in Won-Hyo) though we have a spin following this movement in both cases. I also offer the strike to solar plexus, but only as a close range &#8220;gap maker&#8221; as opposed to an out and out strike. It should be noted that the two applications from Do-San & Won-Hyo differ slightly which is why there are two different throws list. Move #6 would appear in my next book, but in combination with the preceding move (in choong-Moo) it would be used as a simultaneous lift to jaw/neck strike, as well as a set up for a throw using the head following a twin throat grab (and subsequent release using move 1 in Choong-Moo)._

*E (Applications from masters/high ranks):*Master Willie Lim taught move #4 as a simultaneous grab and strike, as well as the parry I listed in section D. He taught move #5 as a muscle strike which led to an two different types of  armlocks (depending on how its targeted). He actively laughed at the notion of using the fingertips (#5) as a real strike!
_
*F (Other view/opinions/learnings):*Eric (Bluekey88):_ the kbp version is a knifehand block to a punch followed up by a spearhand strike to the abdomen, inner thigh, or groin. Better than others, but not necessarily a fight ender. For a better version, i always like using the knife strike as a wrapping up trapping of an attack with the chamber with a knife hand strike to the neck. The spearhand motion could than be something like clothesline typ throw or projection...something akin to Kokyunage in Aikidousing the deep stance to get ones front leg behing the opponent and using your body weight to unblance them over your leg.


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## StuartA

exile said:


> Done. Over to you!


 
Okay, all reposted in the correct order with, the correct applications (I hope).. so now, it really is *on with the show*.

Exile, I would delete all the posts about the c##k-up, so the 3 main app posts are on 1 page and in order

Up to you though,


Stuart


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## exile

StuartA said:


> Okay, all reposted in the correct order with, the correct applications (I hope).. so now, it really is *on with the show*.
> 
> Exile, I would delete all the posts about the c##k-up, so the 3 main app posts are on 1 page and in order
> 
> Up to you though,
> 
> 
> Stuart



Done!


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## StuartA

Come on guys... I did a load of work getting all thsi togethor... the least you could do is discuss it!

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese! :angel:


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## dancingalone

Stuart, I don't have the time right now to read through the entire thread, but I would offer an interpretation of the two upper blocks in Tae Geuk Yi Jang as this:

1) opponent punches towards your face
2) you soft block upwards to divert the attack, ideally maintaining control with your left arm of your attacker's right arm through the wrist and bending it back so that his elbow faces up
3) in short succession, your right arm loops over so that you have a grip with both hands on your attacker, left hand on his wrist, right hand's palm on the elbow
4)you now have a classical sholder lock and can take the attacker down by driving through him both backwards and downwards.


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## Ninjamom

I am having a very difficult time picturing many of these alternative applications; therefore, it's really hard to make meaningful comments. (So, you'll have to settle for these  )

I *think* I understand what you are suggesting for the phrase in TG#4.  If I am understanding you correctly, then the opening move you are using is a single knifehand 'block', where the retracting left hand clears the opponent's front arm to allow entry for a neck/jaw strike with the right hand.  However, the actual movement in TG#4 is a double knifehand block, which loses the ability to clear the opponent's front hand in this sequence.  So, I guess my thought is that you have an effective application, but not of the movement sequence in TG#4.

In the sequence in TG#7 I could actually see this as a defense against a wrist grab: pull the grabbed hand to the body while attacking near the opponent's elbow with the palm-heel strike, hold onto that arm and pull him into your knee strike/groin kick, then pull his arm from near his elbow towards your opposite waist side while breaking his arm with your forearm in the out-to-in middle block motion.

Sorry, but in TG#2 I don't see any special techniques or moves, just the very raw easy basics - something for teaching young yellow stripes the TKD equivalent of how to walk and chew gum at the same time.


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## StuartA

dancingalone said:


> Stuart, I don't have the time right now to read through the entire thread, but I would offer an interpretation of the two upper blocks in Tae Geuk Yi Jang as this:
> 
> 1) opponent punches towards your face
> 2) you soft block upwards to divert the attack, ideally maintaining control with your left arm of your attacker's right arm through the wrist and bending it back so that his elbow faces up
> 3) in short succession, your right arm loops over so that you have a grip with both hands on your attacker, left hand on his wrist, right hand's palm on the elbow
> 4)you now have a classical sholder lock and can take the attacker down by driving through him both backwards and downwards.


 
Thats the application I offer - see I didnt even have to describe it!! EXCELLANT.

I usually do it from a grab though, as its less intensive than a full committed punch.

Stuart


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## StuartA

Ninjamom said:


> I am having a very difficult time picturing many of these alternative applications;


theres a couple of decent books on the subject.. pictures and all 



> therefore, it's really hard to make meaningful comments. (So, you'll have to settle for these  )
> 
> I *think* I understand what you are suggesting for the phrase in TG#4. If I am understanding you correctly, then the opening move you are using is a single knifehand 'block', where the retracting left hand clears the opponent's front arm to allow entry for a neck/jaw strike with the right hand. However, the actual movement in TG#4 is a double knifehand block, which loses the ability to clear the opponent's front hand in this sequence. So, I guess my thought is that you have an effective application, but not of the movement sequence in TG#4.
> 
> In the sequence in TG#7 I could actually see this as a defense against a wrist grab: pull the grabbed hand to the body while attacking near the opponent's elbow with the palm-heel strike, hold onto that arm and pull him into your knee strike/groin kick, then pull his arm from near his elbow towards your opposite waist side while breaking his arm with your forearm in the out-to-in middle block motion.
> 
> Sorry, but in TG#2 I don't see any special techniques or moves, just the very raw easy basics - something for teaching young yellow stripes the TKD equivalent of how to walk and chew gum at the same time.


To whom are you refering to Ninjamon.. there 5 or 6 different apps listed by various sources?

Stuart


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## Ninjamom

StuartA said:


> To whom are you refering to Ninjamon.. there 5 or 6 different apps listed by various sources?
> 
> Stuart


Sorry  

I was referring to your description of SJON's application in "The Taeguk Cipher'.  Out of all of the application possibilities for the TG#4 sequence under discussion, it seemed the most interesting to me.


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## dancingalone

Unless you condition your hands and fingers (most don't), the spear hand strike has got to be one of the most unconvincing applications I see in kata or hyung.  

In your Tae Geuk 4 example, Stuart, I believe the knife hand block is actually a close range knife hand strike to the neck area.  The proceeding spear hand strike should be adapted into a clotheslining strike, leading to a take down.

If you want to get fancy and throw in the following move #6, just adapt the clothesline into something more circular, like the shihonage throw from aikido.


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## exile

dancingalone said:


> Unless you condition your hands and fingers (most don't), the spear hand strike has got to be one of the most unconvincing applications I see in kata or hyung.



I've always thought of these 'spearhand strikes' as nothing more than rotated palm heel strikes. The striking surface is the palm heel, not the finger tips. This is similar to bunkai I've seen for Pinan Shodan, which has a succession of such strikes mid-kata. In some contexts, a rotation of the palm to deliver the heel strike with the palm perpendicular to, rather than parallel with, the floor, seems to require a lot less pressure on the wrist to get the strikeing surface 'out there'.


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## terryl965

Yes it can be used that way Exile bit for the purpose of the thread it would be a spear hand and conditioning needs to be done to kill the nerves at the finger tips for this to happen.


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## Brad Dunne

I tried several times to word this post, so as not to anger or inflame folks, but it just is not going to happen. I fully realize the amount of study and effort put forth by Sjon and Stuart and others, but I'm affraid that it fails in it's intent.

Look at the given movement and directions of the offered forms/hyungs. Lets go to TG2 - The double rising or "high" blocks. Gen Choi's listing is correct, they are blocks for a downward strike or weapons attack. Do folks honestly think they can use that block against an incoming punch? Look at the body positioning firstly. You are standing up straight and then rising your arm. Common sense would dictate that if you attempted to use that block that you would let your body sink below the intended path of the incoming punch, not stand there at face level. Secondly, it takes longer to bring your arm fully up to that high block positioning then it does to do an outside middle block, which would be the vastly preferred action. Movements 13 and 14 which follow are turns (210 degrees and 180 degrees) into inside middle blocks. The flow of the given movements not only don't make sense for practical self defense, but don't even offer themselves to be something other than what they are. Folks like to invision what could be, but you have to proceed with what's been given. Anyone can alter and add to the given movements, but then the entire form/hyung has now been altered to suit what somebody wants, not what is. For a form/hyung to encapsulate real self defense aspects, they must be openly seen and practical, not self induced. An example of which would be TG4. The movements in question are practical self defense within themselves, which again Gen Choi presented. Outside middle knife hand block or just an on guard positioning, followed by a left hand inward palm block, then a finger tip thrust to either the solar plexus or the throat (my preference). IMO, the body positioning is to high for the sidekick block that the Gen. also refers to. The movements are what they are and you can readily see what they are and what their doing. Nothing needs to altered or revised. 
Just my $0.02


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## StuartA

exile said:


> I've always thought of these 'spearhand strikes' as nothing more than rotated palm heel strikes. The striking surface is the palm heel, not the finger tips. This is similar to bunkai I've seen for Pinan Shodan, which has a succession of such strikes mid-kata. In some contexts, a rotation of the palm to deliver the heel strike with the palm perpendicular to, rather than parallel with, the floor, seems to require a lot less pressure on the wrist to get the strikeing surface 'out there'.


 


dancingalone said:


> Unless you condition your hands and fingers (most don't), the spear hand strike has got to be one of the most unconvincing applications I see in kata or hyung.


Many feel the same (including me), though it can be useable, but like I said, not from the same range as a punch, but from very close range more as a pushing strike as a precurser to something else. 



> In your Tae Geuk 4 example, Stuart, I believe the knife hand block is actually a close range knife hand strike to the neck area. The proceeding spear hand strike should be adapted into a clotheslining strike, leading to a take down.


Nice... a friend of mine uses it as a set up to a head butt. Remember, mine arnt actually based on the Taegueks, just similar moves in the Chang Hon patterns and because the before/after moves effect applications, they may be different and not fit as well becuase of it.



> If you want to get fancy and throw in the following move #6, just adapt the clothesline into something more circular, like the shihonage throw from aikido.


Dam.. you think a lot like I do.

Stuart


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## TKDHermit

Well regarding the rising blocks in TG2, basically the rising block actually, my instructor[more of senior but qualified coach, there's a main instructor] always uses a downward handmitt strike to help people position their rising blocks. So I guess yeah, it's more of a defense for downward strikes. I mean my natural response to punches are to hit it aside, or dodge it, not hit it upwards >_>


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## StuartA

Hi Brad,

First of all thanks for getting in on this thread, the more the merrier. I take it your an ITF'er or practice the Ch'ang Hon patterns?!



Brad Dunne said:


> I tried several times to word this post, so as not to anger or inflame folks, but it just is not going to happen. I fully realize the amount of study and effort put forth by Sjon and Stuart and others, but I'm affraid that it fails in it's intent.


By disagreeing you are not going to inflame me (or Simon/others I believe), disagreement creates questions & research and from that comes answers... so its all good.  Though I disagree with the last part of course!



> Look at the given movement and directions of the offered forms/hyungs. Lets go to TG2 - The double rising or "high" blocks. Gen Choi's listing is correct, they are blocks for a downward strike or weapons attack.


Downward attacks I agree with, though these are pretty rare in reality. And though I agree you could block a downward strike with a pole with one, in reality it would most likely break your arm and thus put you in a worse position anyway, and thus would only be a last resort/flynch type defence.




> Do folks honestly think they can use that block against an incoming punch?


In the examples given, I believe it was the WTF applications that show that, however, Im pretty sure that given all the Chookyo makgis (rising blocks) in the chang hon patterns, theres a similar application given for it somewhere by Gen Choi.



> The flow of the given movements not only don't make sense for practical self defense, but don't even offer themselves to be something other than what they are.


An application does not have to start at the beginning of one move and finish at the end of the last one, they do not even have to use all the moves involved. In the example given, move 13 could be the start of something entirely different. 



> Anyone can alter and add to the given movements but then the entire form/hyung has now been altered to suit what somebody wants, not what is.


The elbow break example I give uses the 2 rising blocks exactly how they are performed in Dan-Gun! Nothing is altered, even slightly



> For a form/hyung to encapsulate real self defense aspects, they must be openly seen and practical, not self induced.


Thats a modern outlook (and a decent one) but based on the history of Kata (and thus patterns), its incorrect as the real intent isnt openly seen above and beyond p/k/b - as it is folly to let your enemy know what you know (thinking Japan/Okinawa here - but could be attributed to Japan/Korea also perhaps)



> An example of which would be TG4. The movements in question are practical self defense within themselves, which again Gen Choi presented. Outside middle knife hand block or just an on guard positioning, followed by a left hand inward palm block, then a finger tip thrust to either the solar plexus or the throat (my preference).


Interesting that you say about not altering them, then you alter the height of the fingertip thrust to suit you!! (Though I agree with you that the throat is a better target area). Why have a knifehand guarding block as an _on guard_ position, rather than hand up in front? Besides, you are refering to a stand-off fight, and thats different from self defence.. where on-guard positions are rarely of use. I could probibly strike hard targets with fingertips, as I've done near on 20 years conditioning on them (and yes i ahve done boards and tiles and wouldnt advise anyone to do them as the fingers are way to sensitive even after conditioning), however, *Dancingalone* makes the valid point that most students could not due to the lack of conditioning, making such a technique less viable, as to hit the solar plexus, in the heat of battle, with the fingertips would be extremely hard (as a long/mid range strike as shown in the books) and most likely either hit bone (ribs, hip etc) or a flailing arm.. both of which would damage the fingers, putting the defender at a further disadvantage.




> IMO, the body positioning is to high for the sidekick block that the Gen. also refers to. The movements are what they are and you can readily see what they are and what their doing. Nothing needs to altered or revised.
> Just my $0.02


Well, I wouldnt want to risk stopping a side kick with a knifehand block, thats for sure. The manuals often show them at full stretch (for the photos).. where as even in sparring, the distance is a lot closer as the attacker is actually trying to hit the body and the block is unlikely to work no matter what height (there are high section KH blocks in other patterns).

Stuart


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## bluekey88

Brad Dunne said:


> I tried several times to word this post, so as not to anger or inflame folks, but it just is not going to happen. I fully realize the amount of study and effort put forth by Sjon and Stuart and others, but I'm affraid that it fails in it's intent.
> 
> Look at the given movement and directions of the offered forms/hyungs. Lets go to TG2 - The double rising or "high" blocks. Gen Choi's listing is correct, they are blocks for a downward strike or weapons attack. Do folks honestly think they can use that block against an incoming punch? Look at the body positioning firstly. You are standing up straight and then rising your arm. Common sense would dictate that if you attempted to use that block that you would let your body sink below the intended path of the incoming punch, not stand there at face level. Secondly, it takes longer to bring your arm fully up to that high block positioning then it does to do an outside middle block, which would be the vastly preferred action. Movements 13 and 14 which follow are turns (210 degrees and 180 degrees) into inside middle blocks. The flow of the given movements not only don't make sense for practical self defense, but don't even offer themselves to be something other than what they are. Folks like to invision what could be, but you have to proceed with what's been given. Anyone can alter and add to the given movements, but then the entire form/hyung has now been altered to suit what somebody wants, not what is. For a form/hyung to encapsulate real self defense aspects, they must be openly seen and practical, not self induced. An example of which would be TG4. The movements in question are practical self defense within themselves, which again Gen Choi presented. Outside middle knife hand block or just an on guard positioning, followed by a left hand inward palm block, then a finger tip thrust to either the solar plexus or the throat (my preference). IMO, the body positioning is to high for the sidekick block that the Gen. also refers to. The movements are what they are and you can readily see what they are and what their doing. Nothing needs to altered or revised.
> Just my $0.02


 
No offense intended.  I think you were looking at my examples.  In each case i showed what I'd often seen proposed which is the inferior application.  I prefer the use of these blocks as either downard pinning techniques to a grab that then turn into strikes.  I'm certainly not advocating highblocks to parry punches.  

When i did Aikido, we often used similar tehcniqques against overhead attacks (usually for bokken or Jo).  the object is not to stand still and receive the weapon attack on your arm, but to enter in quickly and attack the armholding the weapon and drive it up and back before it really gets going.

Peace,
Erik


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## dancingalone

Brad Dunne said:


> Look at the given movement and directions of the offered forms/hyungs. Lets go to TG2 - The double rising or "high" blocks. Gen Choi's listing is correct, they are blocks for a downward strike or weapons attack. Do folks honestly think they can use that block against an incoming punch? Look at the body positioning firstly. You are standing up straight and then rising your arm. Common sense would dictate that if you attempted to use that block that you would let your body sink below the intended path of the incoming punch, not stand there at face level. Secondly, it takes longer to bring your arm fully up to that high block positioning then it does to do an outside middle block, which would be the vastly preferred action.



Hi, Brad.  I do believe the rising block can be used to defend a face punch; in fact it's often the most natural response.  If you're standing with your hands down by your sides, you would have to raise your arm anyway to ward off a blow to your face.  Might as well combine the upward motion and make it a block as well.  

In my dojo, we occasionally practice a random punch/block drill among the advanced ranks where two partners take turns throwing a punch to the head or to the midsection, straight or hooking.  It's up to the uke to defend himself with the correct instinctive block.  Believe it or not, the rising block often arises spontaneously in response to a face or head attack.



Brad Dunne said:


> Movements 13 and 14 which follow are turns (210 degrees and 180 degrees) into inside middle blocks. The flow of the given movements not only don't make sense for practical self defense, but don't even offer themselves to be something other than what they are. Folks like to invision what could be, but you have to proceed with what's been given. Anyone can alter and add to the given movements, but then the entire form/hyung has now been altered to suit what somebody wants, not what is. For a form/hyung to encapsulate real self defense aspects, they must be openly seen and practical, not self induced. An example of which would be TG4. The movements in question are practical self defense within themselves, which again Gen Choi presented. Outside middle knife hand block or just an on guard positioning, followed by a left hand inward palm block, then a finger tip thrust to either the solar plexus or the throat (my preference). IMO, the body positioning is to high for the sidekick block that the Gen. also refers to. The movements are what they are and you can readily see what they are and what their doing. Nothing needs to altered or revised.
> Just my $0.02



One of the keys to kata I have been taught in Goju-ryu karate is to not be tricked by the embusen or layout of the pattern.  Just because the choreography moves in a certain direction doesn't mean the actual application has to correspond as well.  If you allow yourself to be constrained by the choreography, you'll be reducing the pattern to just a way of practicing your basics:  kicking, punching, and blocking.  

When I studied tae kwon do, we never did much pattern analysis, so this perspective is from Okinawan karate.  Your mileage may vary, although from all the interest on this board about bunkai, I would think not.


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## Brad Dunne

Thanks for the welcome Stuart. 

I take it your an ITF'er or practice the Ch'ang Hon patterns?! 
No, I've done the Taegueks since they've been introduced.

Downward attacks I agree with, though these are pretty rare in reality. And though I agree you could block a downward strike with a pole with one, in reality it would most likely break your arm and thus put you in a worse position anyway, and thus would only be a last resort/flynch type defence.

Just watching the TV show cops and other like shows, there have been more than their share of store clerks getting attacked by thugs, using that very same downward stike move, so in reality it's not pretty rare. Do you stand the chance of getting your arm broken with this block against an attacking object? If you don't use the correct angle of deflection, you will get your arm broken. Most folks don't know how to deliver this block correctly and thusly offer their arm straight across thier head. If done correctly, the arm is at a minimum of a 45 degree angle, which will allow the incoming object to produce more of a glancing blow instead of a full on decending blow. The arm will be bruised, but it should still be useable if done correctly. Additionally, the body positioning also comes into play, as when doing this block, the body is moving into the on coming attack, which negates a considerable amount of force from the attacker. 

An application does not have to start at the beginning of one move and finish at the end of the last one, they do not even have to use all the moves involved. In the example given, move 13 could be the start of something entirely different. 

Now this is the crux of my personal discord with foms/hyungs in general. A form is a given set of movements. Finding SD value should be based upon those given sets of movements, not what can be added, for any and everything can be added, but that's not what the given assessment should be based on. Looking at biomachanics of a given movement, it should interface with the next movement in a practical fashion. As stated, anything can be added, but the real question should be..........does it have to be added. If as this thread dictates, additions are the true source of what's being defined, then should not the body positioning be intuned with what is going to be added? If I not only have to add additional techniques but now I must also include secondary body positions to effect this techniques correctly, why not just openly add them to the core of the form/hyung and be done with all this rhetoric.  

The elbow break example I give uses the 2 rising blocks exactly how they are performed in Dan-Gun! Nothing is altered, even slightly

That may be fine for Dan-Gun but the examples in question were for TaeGueks.

Thats a modern outlook (and a decent one) but based on the history of Kata (and thus patterns), its incorrect as the real intent isnt openly seen above and beyond p/k/b - as it is folly to let your enemy know what you know (thinking Japan/Okinawa here - but could be attributed to Japan/Korea also perhaps)

Perhaps this is the real crux of the problem/situation. We've been handed this story of secret meanings because the arts were outlawed at some point in time, so practicioners had to disguise what they were doing. Now going with this premise, wouldn't you think that the folks that forbad the practice of the arts, could not see thru the facade of make believe training? These folks were also schooled in the arts, so it would make sense that they would know what to look for, wouldn't it? It also makes sense that if folks did have this ban over their heads, that they would practice in secret, without being observed, so there would be no need to disguise what they were doing. 

Interesting that you say about not altering them, then you alter the height of the fingertip thrust to suit you!!

Nothing was altered, the attacking point preference was changed, not the movement and added nothing else to it. I referenced Gen. Choi's position of the solar plexus, because the movement is the same, but solar plexus was not the target area I was taught. In truth, finger tip strikes are meant for soft tissue, so eyes and throat would be the prime areas anyway.


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## bluekey88

Brad Dunne said:


> Thanks for the welcome Stuart.
> 
> Now this is the crux of my personal discord with foms/hyungs in general. A form is a given set of movements. Finding SD value should be based upon those given sets of movements, not what can be added, for any and everything can be added, but that's not what the given assessment should be based on. Looking at biomachanics of a given movement, it should interface with the next movement in a practical fashion. As stated, anything can be added, but the real question should be..........does it have to be added. If as this thread dictates, additions are the true source of what's being defined, then should not the body positioning be intuned with what is going to be added? If I not only have to add additional techniques but now I must also include secondary body positions to effect this techniques correctly, why not just openly add them to the core of the form/hyung and be done with all this rhetoric.


 
This is an excellent point, however I would propose that while forms are a set of prescrtibed movements...they are also a form of training shorthand.  Perhaps this is an artefact of the need for training to be accessible to people who did not have ready access to books, librarires, computers or the internet.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that much of ancient martial tradition (prior to the late 19th century for example) had to be taught to people who may not be literate.  If they were, they didn't have books, scrolls reeadily availabel to transmit knowledge.  

I think there is a lot of truth to the idea of forms as fighting style encylcopedia.  If that is the case, then the idea that various moves may have multiple interpretations makes more sense.  the need to understand the method of analyses even more so to "unlock" the moves even more so.

Should this be the case with an art that was developed in th4e last 60 years?  Not necesarily, but since TKD is drawing heavily on the idea of ancient traditions...I can see how things have progressed to where they are at today.

So, whiel it would be nice to be more explicit with the apllications in forms...i don't think that's what we have with the bulk of the Okinawan/Japanese/Korean forms available to us today.

Peace,
Erik


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## StuartA

Brad Dunne said:


> Thanks for the welcome Stuart.


A pleasure. 



> No, I've done the Taegueks since they've been introduced./quote]
> Interesting... from your Gen Choi app remarks I thought perhaps you were ITF.. obviously not - nice!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just watching the TV show cops and other like shows, there have been more than their share of store clerks getting attacked by thugs, using that very same downward stike move, so in reality it's not pretty rare.
> 
> 
> 
> I do understand your point, and its a good one. I never liked the block often taught with Chookyo makgi against a downward knife attack, as this attack was really confined to 'physco the movie'... until i saw the 'Stephen Lawrance' video, which show a group of thugs fooling about with machetes in the same manner (claiming this is how they'd attack some one) - it reconfigured my thoughts on the matter. I still dont think the block is that viable for a weapon block, more so a long weapon (pole, baseball bat etc.).. that said, as I said in my other post, I agree it can be used in this manner. Having blocked a pole in training a couple of times,  I can pretty much testify it hurts like hell and is not something I'd want to do with a full power blow trying to take my head off!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most folks don't know how to deliver this block correctly and thusly offer their arm straight across thier head. If done correctly, the arm is at a minimum of a 45 degree angle, which will allow the incoming object to produce more of a glancing blow instead of a full on decending blow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They dont!! The ITF teach this as standard.. however, it still hurts like hell. However, not sure if you`ve read my book or not but theres some old principles in ITF called fire and water prnciples.. the water one goes with the flow and the block doesnt go solid and this is the best way to employ such a block against a solid weapon IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, the body positioning also comes into play, as when doing this block, the body is moving into the on coming attack, which negates a considerable amount of force from the attacker.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another point I made in the book.. however, moving into a weapon attack not only takes guts, but a considerable amount of training.. something a yellow belt (the level of this pattern) doesnt have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now this is the crux of my personal discord with foms/hyungs in general. A form is a given set of movements. Finding SD value should be based upon those given sets of movements, not what can be added, for any and everything can be added, but that's not what the given assessment should be based on. Looking at biomachanics of a given movement, it should interface with the next movement in a practical fashion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree.. but kata research has shown this is often not the case, so it stands to reason as Korean forms are related heavily to japanese ones, it is not the either - though Id very much like it to be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As stated, anything can be added, but the real question should be..........does it have to be added. If as this thread dictates, additions are the true source of what's being defined
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont understand this bit.. whats been added? The applications I refer to add nothing and work exactly as they are perfromed in solo patterns!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may be fine for Dan-Gun but the examples in question were for TaeGueks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which are performed in exactly the same manner as those in dan-Gun.. two blocks & two steps!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps this is the real crux of the problem/situation. We've been handed this story of secret meanings because the arts were outlawed at some point in time, so practicioners had to disguise what they were doing. Now going with this premise, wouldn't you think that the folks that forbad the practice of the arts, could not see thru the facade of make believe training?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No.. as to drive a car, you first have to know what a car is.. or else it still looks like a bike with an engine & doors and thus treated as such!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These folks were also schooled in the arts, so it would make sense that they would know what to look for, wouldn't it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You would have thought so, but in that era, questioning the masters was frowned upon, as was cross training.. coupled with limited books (if they could be obtained), illiteracy (as Bluekey has noted - good point btw) and not internet connection.. its less likely they would be researched or if they were, shared in any great abundance. There were small pockets of these people for sure, even within TKD, but as a whole.. I find it unlikely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It also makes sense that if folks did have this ban over their heads, that they would practice in secret, without being observed, so there would be no need to disguise what they were doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We are talking pre-karate now right - there is findings that this was indeed the case!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing was altered, the attacking point preference was changed, not the movement and added nothing else to it. I referenced Gen. Choi's position of the solar plexus, because the movement is the same, but solar plexus was not the target area I was taught. In truth, finger tip strikes are meant for soft tissue, so eyes and throat would be the prime areas anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fair enough.. my thoughts were upon the assumption that you were ITF, so thats a fair point.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Stuart
> 
> Ps. You might wanna quote things or put them in Itallics (use the advance editor) to seperate your points from the ones your responding to.
Click to expand...


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## Miles

StuartA said:


> *Number 1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2*_
> __http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg__
> *Moves:* 11 & 12_​_
> *A1 (Kukkikwon Wed Site): *Based on the shown applications on the WTF Website listed as (move 13 instead of 11/12) the rising block blocks a straight punch/high._
> 
> *A2 (Kukkikwon Text book):*  When the opponet delivers an Olguljireugi, one performs an Olgulmakki, One inflicts a counterattack by an apchagi and, pursuing the opponet and then delivers a monitoring Bandaemakki.
> 
> *B (Gen Choi Ency): *_Found in ITF pattern, Dan-Gun.  Application shown to block a downward knifehand strike as well as a downward strike with a pole_
> 
> *C (Simon O&#8217;Neill/Taeguek Cipher):*  Attacker pushes you up against a wall with both hands. Bring your left  forearm over the top of his arms, slam it down into the crooks of his  elbows then immediately drive upwards under his jaw. Push off with  back foot and thrust forwards, striking the jaw again with the second  rising forearm. Finish by underhooking his left arm with your right,  gripping the back of his neck with your left, turning 270º ACW and  driving him head first into the wall.
> 
> *D (Stuart Anslow/TKD Hae Sul book):*_  Both used together as an elbow break (from a head grab) or a shoulder lock_
> 
> *E (Applications from masters/high ranks):*_ Patrick McCarthy (6th degree ITF + BB in other arts/40+ years experience) teaches this similar to my application (elbow break) but as a shoulder dislocation technique._
> _
> *F (Other view/opinions/learnings):* Eric (Bluekey88): _the kbp applicatino is two block parrying high level punches to the face. the more in depth analyuses (pretty much what Mr. O'neil writes) could be using the chamber hand of the first high block to pin the arms of an attacker doing a lapel grab while executing a forearm strike to the throat/chin. doing this again, swithcing handsz, the adding the next move...the 270 turn into an inside block could be a transition into a standing arm bar or head strike/throw.



Cool thread!  My own take on your basic "high block/olgul makki/sangdan makki":  How about the crossing (i.e. non-blocking) hand parries the attacker's punch, then grabbing with that same hand while pulling it in so now the attacker's elbow is supinated.  The "block" now becomes an elbow break or a forearm strike underneath to the armpit of the attacker.

Oops!  Just noticed that Patrick McCarthy has same or similar of interpretation.


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## Miles

StuartA said:


> *Number 2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)*_
> __http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg__
> *Moves*: 4,5 & 6_​
> *A1 (Kukkikwon Wed Site): *Based on the shown applications on the WTF Website (2,3 & 4) Move #5 Defends against a right punch, and follows (#6) with a front snap kick to stomach. Move #7 then blocks against a left punch.
> 
> *A2 (Kukkikwon Text book):* Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi, When the opponet delivers a montong barojireugi consecultively
> 
> *B (Gen Choi Ency):*_  AFAIK, apart from the inward block (move 4) and a front kick, the ITF does not have a combination of this type that I can think of. The low knifehand performed in that way isnt in any of the ITF patterns up to 4th degree (though I could be wrong lol)_
> 
> *C (Simon ONeill/Taeguek Cipher):*  Double lapel grab, sit weight back into cat stance and strike the  outside of the attacker?s right arm just above or below the elbow with  the heel of the left hand, securing his hand with the right hand. This  will make him turn inwards, allowing you to attack the outside of his  right knee with a forward stamping kick. Meanwhile, locate his right  wrist with the left hand and his right elbow with the right hand, and  perform a backward arm throw using the forearm block motion as you  fall back into cat stance after the kick
> 
> *D (Stuart Anslow/TKD Hae Sul book):*_ At first glance I would say 5,6 & 7  looks like a combination as opposed to 4, 5 & 6 (the randomly selected ones above); with the downward knifehand (#4) a release from a clothing grab (ie. Strike to the PPs on the arm), followed by a front kick or knee (depending on distance) and finished with a downward elbow strike to the back of the now bent over opponent)_
> 
> *E (Applications from masters/high ranks): *
> 
> *F (Other view/opinions/learnings):*_Eric (Bluekey88): _the kbp analyses could be pulling back into tiger stance and parrying punch with an inside block...turning and parrying a punch from another attacker and then kicking them. Again, less than satisfactory...perhaps a better application is again from some sort of grab to the left side of my body. I could secure the offending limb with my right hand (chamber) whiel executing a hammer fist strik to the side of the head/neck. Grabbing the offending limb with my left hand I could turn and execute an arm-bar takedown as I turn 180...then knee or kick the now bent over attacker in the face.



My take is similar to Simon's though it is defense against single hand lapel grab: attacker grabs defender's left lapel with right hand. Defender's "inside middle block" is actually a strike to attacker's elbow.  The transition is a take-down with the "inside palm block" simply showing where you end the technique/movement so you can kick the attacker in the head.


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## Miles

Taeguek #4.  Attacker has grabbed my right wrist from the underside with his left hand.  My "knife hand block" is to straighten out his arm so that my simultaneous nullo makki/pressing block is where I use my right hand to now grab his left.  The "spear hand" is my left hand looping through his bent arm and effecting a come-along.  I've moved behind him and my right hand has his left arm pinned behind him and my left hand has secured my position so he can't pivot around me.

BTW, off topic but the Red Wings just hung on to beat the St. Louis Blues-go Wings! (hey, I'm from Detroit where there is not much else to cheer about!


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## SJON

Brad Dunne said:


> I tried several times to word this post, so as not to anger or inflame folks, but it just is not going to happen. I fully realize the amount of study and effort put forth by Sjon and Stuart and others, but I'm affraid that it fails in it's intent.


 
Hello Brad.

Ive been offline for a couple of days and havent had chance to reply before. I appreciate your comments and dont feel in the least offended.



Brad Dunne said:


> Look at the given movement and directions of the offered forms/hyungs. Lets go to TG2 - The double rising or "high" blocks. Gen Choi's listing is correct, they are blocks for a downward strike or weapons attack. Do folks honestly think they can use that block against an incoming punch? Look at the body positioning firstly. You are standing up straight and then rising your arm. Common sense would dictate that if you attempted to use that block that you would let your body sink below the intended path of the incoming punch, not stand there at face level. Secondly, it takes longer to bring your arm fully up to that high block positioning then it does to do an outside middle block, which would be the vastly preferred action.


 
Regarding the rising block, I agree that it is not the most efficient way to parry a high punch, but I recognise that it certainly can be made to work as such. I also agree that it could be used to defend against an overhead strike, although I dont think that this is the most efficient way of doing so.
You state categorically that General Chois listing of these moves as defences against overhead strikes is correct (presumably as evidence for your prior statement that Stuarts and my books fail in their intent). Well, there are various ways of looking at that, all of which have already been addressed on this thread: (a) everything a particular master says is true and must not be questioned (b) the master in question may not have known the real application but decided to include the sequence because he suspected there was something more to those Okinawan forms than met the eye (c) the master in question had other intentions but chose not to make them known to the general public.



Brad Dunne said:


> Movements 13 and 14 which follow are turns (210 degrees and 180 degrees) into inside middle blocks. The flow of the given movements not only don't make sense for practical self defense, but don't even offer themselves to be something other than what they are. Folks like to invision what could be, but you have to proceed with what's been given. Anyone can alter and add to the given movements, but then the entire form/hyung has now been altered to suit what somebody wants, not what is. For a form/hyung to encapsulate real self defense aspects, they must be openly seen and practical, not self induced.
> An example of which would be TG4. The movements in question are practical self defense within themselves, which again Gen Choi presented. Outside middle knife hand block or just an on guard positioning, followed by a left hand inward palm block, then a finger tip thrust to either the solar plexus or the throat (my preference). IMO, the body positioning is to high for the sidekick block that the Gen. also refers to. The movements are what they are and you can readily see what they are and what their doing. Nothing needs to altered or revised.
> Just my $0.02


 
Again, must we accept that this is so just because you categorically state it? I agree that the movements do not make sense for self-defence when interpreted as K/B/P. I disagree that they do not offer themselves for something else  to me its very clear. I also disagree that for a form to be practical it must be obvious what its doing. Once more, I ask why? Because you say so? Because Choi said so? Are you absolutely confident of Chois motivations? I am certainly not convinced by the explanation that you offer for the T4C sequence as an illustration of your argument.
Who has added or modified movements? The examples I gave use exactly the same movements as in the poomse. In my book, the only alterations I make are (a) chambering on the inside or outside of the non-blocking hand (the big orgs change this from time to time themselves), and (b) applying front snap kicks as knee strikes, thrusts and stamps as well as snap kicks. All the rest is the same  stances, steps, turns, arm movements. As I recall, Stuarts book is even closer than mine to the exact movements of his respective patterns.

To me, its all summed up in this question: If the early masters, who were presumably more than passingly familiar with actual violence, werent intending some other than K/B/P for those apparently impractical pattern sequences, then why the hell did they bother composing them?

Cheers,

Simon


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## Brad Dunne

Stuart :asian:

In the larger scheme of things, what I think really dosen't matter. What this thread is showing is that it's a conformation of both yours and SJON's work. As I stated in my first posting, I applaud you both for your time and efforts. I offered my rational for the subject matter and even used one of your given references (Gen Choi) as to what the actions are/were and now even that's being brought into question as a rebuttal. Suffice to say that we do not see eye to eye on this subject and most likely never will. To me, what you are promoting is the free for all of what could be instead of what should be. I'll use this analogy. Open a book and the first page discribes what the book is about. Turn the page and there's only one sentance, "write the rest for yourself". To my way of thinking, I need a certain amount of substance to validate movements within a kata/hyung, before entertaining the prospects of what can this be. Also as stated prior, anything and everything can be offered because, there seems to be the blank page and it's up to the individual to interperet what's missing. I just have a difficult time accepting the Taegueks as anything thing more than what they are, a basic P/K/B platform for training. There's one big consideration that my have been overlooked thruout all these discussions and that is the fact that the powers that be, have deemed TKD a sport. Changes in the hyungs have coinsided with the sport mindset and applications for driving TKD to sports status. I doubt very seriously that those that formulated the Taegueks had anything more in mind than that simple training platform of P/K/B, for that all you see in the sports arena.


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## StuartA

Brad Dunne said:


> In the larger scheme of things, what I think really dosen't matter.


All voices matter in a debate like this, all sides of the dicussion.



> What this thread is showing is that it's a conformation of both yours and SJON's work.


No, not really.. I know Simon is genuinely interest to see how much merit his research carries inline with the founders of the Taegueks.. I also belive he is open to any/all that coems his way regarding them. Myself, I am too, though in regards to the Ch'ang Hon system, as thats my patterns.



> Suffice to say that we do not see eye to eye on this subject and most likely never will.


That doesnt mean we cant discuss the various positions & options though!



> To me, what you are promoting is the free for all of what could be instead of what should be.


I dont believe thats the case, both Simon and myself did a lot of research before forming our opinions... as well as when writting the books (I know I did and Im presuming Simon did as well).. I think we both look at it as making something more the sum of its parts, both sides of the coin can be easily trained, but we give a second option on things, whereas before there was none (as a general, thing)




> There's one big consideration that my have been overlooked thruout all these discussions and that is the fact that the powers that be, have deemed TKD a sport.


As I have said, my side of things is all based on the Ch'ang Hon forms, I know very little about WTF stuff, and though ITF have become a little more sporty as well, the art as a whole has had a major shift in focus to sport.



> I doubt very seriously that those that formulated the Taegueks had anything more in mind than that simple training platform of P/K/B, for that all you see in the sports arena.


 Thats a very good point you make, Ill leave a response to those that know more of KKW/WTF history to discuss it further.

cheers,

Stuart


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## dancingalone

> I doubt very seriously that those that formulated the Taegueks had anything more in mind than that simple training platform of P/K/B, for that all you see in the sports arena.



That has been my opinion also, but I'm open to any new info from the WTF admin that suggests otherwise.  In any case, even if the form may not have been designed with more applications that the obvious ones, it doesn't mean one can't use the Tae Geuks for teaching and practicing 'deeper' applications.  After all, I only read the "Lord of the Rings" as an adventure story, but some universities devote entire classes to it as a serious work of literature.


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## StuartA

Whilst doing some research on something different, I came across this passage that might prove interesting. I noted it particularly as it mentions "_rising block_"... its part of a piece written by Iain Abernethy (renowned kata bunkai exponent).. its from piece titled "*A Brief History of Kata*"

-------------------------------------
_Itsou&#8217;s modifications resulted in huge changes in the way the art was taught. The emphasis was now placed firmly upon the development of physical fitness through the group practice of kata. The children would receive no instruction in the combative applications associated with the katas and deliberately misleading labels were adopted for the various techniques. Today, it is Itsou&#8217;s terminology that is most commonly used throughout the world and it is vital to understand why this terminology developed. When studying the combative applications of the katas remember that many of the names given to various movements have no link with the movement&#8217;s fighting application. *Terms such as &#8220;Rising-block&#8221; or &#8220;Outer-block&#8221; stem from the watered down karate taught to Okinawan school children, and not the highly potent fighting art taught to the adults.* *When studying bunkai be sure that the label does not mislead you*. *Itsou&#8217;s changes also resulted in the teaching of kata without its applications.* The traditional practice had been to learn the kata and then when it was of a sufficient standard (and the student had gained the master&#8217;s trust) the applications would then be taught. However, it now became the norm to teach the kata for its own sake and the applications may never be taught (as is sadly still the case in the majority of karate schools today). _
_--------------------------------------------------_
_Full article: http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_19.asp_


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## StuartA

Just bumping this up as Im surprised theres been no comments on it and its a central point to this discussion!!
Either way is good!




StuartA said:


> Whilst doing some research on something different, I came across this passage that might prove interesting. I noted it particularly as it mentions "_rising block_"... its part of a piece written by Iain Abernethy (renowned kata bunkai exponent).. its from piece titled "*A Brief History of Kata*"
> 
> -------------------------------------
> _Itsou&#8217;s modifications resulted in huge changes in the way the art was taught. The emphasis was now placed firmly upon the development of physical fitness through the group practice of kata. The children would receive no instruction in the combative applications associated with the katas and deliberately misleading labels were adopted for the various techniques. Today, it is Itsou&#8217;s terminology that is most commonly used throughout the world and it is vital to understand why this terminology developed. When studying the combative applications of the katas remember that many of the names given to various movements have no link with the movement&#8217;s fighting application. *Terms such as &#8220;Rising-block&#8221; or &#8220;Outer-block&#8221; stem from the watered down karate taught to Okinawan school children, and not the highly potent fighting art taught to the adults.* *When studying bunkai be sure that the label does not mislead you*. *Itsou&#8217;s changes also resulted in the teaching of kata without its applications.* The traditional practice had been to learn the kata and then when it was of a sufficient standard (and the student had gained the master&#8217;s trust) the applications would then be taught. However, it now became the norm to teach the kata for its own sake and the applications may never be taught (as is sadly still the case in the majority of karate schools today). _
> _--------------------------------------------------_
> _Full article: http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_19.asp_


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## dancingalone

Hi, Stuart.  I did not reply to your excerpt because I thought it was largely known information.  You can still upset Shotokan people today with a mention of Itosu's 'schoolboy' karate.    Of course the devil is in the details, karate (and taekwondo) can be taught very superficially as only a percussive striking art.  But peel the onion skin a few layers down, and you'll find the good stuff.  The advanced material depends of course on sound fundamentals and correct movement however, so the schoolboy approach is a good one, particularly if you are teaching large numbers of students.  It's in small sessions with your instructor where these basics are refined and then melded into something decidedly more complete and deadly.


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## StuartA

dancingalone said:


> Hi, Stuart. I did not reply to your excerpt because I thought it was largely known information.


To some it is, to others it isnt and to many.. they just prefer to _pretend_ they havnt heard the news yet!



> You can still upset Shotokan people today with a mention of Itosu's 'schoolboy' karate.


I know.. and TKD folk like it even less.. feeling perhaps to admit it would be like having _'hand me downs'_ that were holey to begin with!



> But peel the onion skin a few layers down, and you'll find the good stuff.


Well put.. I may have to use that anology one day!

Stuart


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## exile

dancingalone said:


> You can still upset Shotokan people today with a mention of Itosu's 'schoolboy' karate.



I have never understood why anyone gets upset about thiswe have it documented in Itosu's own words. It would be like someone in the US getting upset about the fact that automobile production began first in Europe, not in America. It's just a _fact_. The documentation is there in both cases. Why linger in denial, if the facts are clear? Even the Japanese Shotokan karateka have begun to recognize the existence of these concealed layers of combat application under the surface form of their kataGennusuke Higaki's _Hidden Karate_, about the deeper fighting content of the Pinans and Naihanchi, came out just a couple of years ago, and talks extensively about all this stuff, and he's in Shozan Kubota's lineage. This is as core Shotokan as you can get...


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## StuartA

exile said:


> I have never understood why anyone gets upset about thiswe have it documented in Itosu's own words.


 
 I think they feel its a _'stain'_ on what they do.. as if saying that the last 20 years training are a waste or something.. when that is certainly not the case.. when you accept the _facts_, the art just becomes even better!

For higher grades, they simply dont like to admit they do not know it all.. I have seen this many a time - paper pedastals perhaps!


Stuart


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