# Biggest Issue When You Started A School



## martialartsnerd

Hey, guys! Newbie here, but I'd like to know what your biggest issue was when you started your own school or club. I've seen some really awesome instructors who really know their stuff, but can't really get a school running because they lack savvy in some area, usually marketing. It's part of why I decided to get into marketing so I can help those guys and, well, make some money off of that.


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## hoshin1600

Little ironic...it seems like your soliciting for clients with this Webb sight thread. Not a very effective method to do that. It's not a very productive way to market yourself....thus we will assume your marketing of a school probably won't be that great.


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## JR 137

Maybe he’s just trying to help some people out?


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## pdg

A marketing person asking potential clients and consumers what they think is perfectly acceptable imo, it's called market research isn't it?

So, someone wants to make some money by helping instructors with marketing - they need to look at the market and find the shortcomings and possible solutions, then package them.

Asking here seems a reasonable place to start that process...


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## Andrew Green

Marketing is not usually someones first problem, first problem is getting their class floor solid.  Having the capital to make the place look nice and not like it will be gone 6 months later.  Basically getting all the things internally working properly.

If the internals aren't polished marketing will just get people in the door to see that you aren't very good


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## hoshin1600

pdg said:


> A marketing person asking potential clients and consumers what they think is perfectly acceptable imo, it's called market research isn't it?



correct, market research is good.  i didnt read it like that.  what i read was this.....

"_ I've seen some really awesome instructors who really know their stuff, but can't really get a school running because they lack savvy in ... marketing.
maybe i can make a post on this web sight and maybe someone will hire me."
_
the OP states that good instructors cant get their MA school off the ground due to marketing.  i feel that is a bit of confirmation bias.  MA schools biggest problem is usually lack of start up capital and lack of business knowledge.  thus hiring a marketing consultant is not in the budget._ 
_
judging by the wording of the post, i have a hard time believing the OP had any intention other than self promotion.


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## martialartsnerd

hoshin1600 said:


> correct, market research is good.  i didnt read it like that.  what i read was this.....
> 
> "_ I've seen some really awesome instructors who really know their stuff, but can't really get a school running because they lack savvy in ... marketing.
> maybe i can make a post on this web sight and maybe someone will hire me."
> _
> the OP states that good instructors cant get their MA school off the ground due to marketing.  i feel that is a bit of confirmation bias.  MA schools biggest problem is usually lack of start up capital and lack of business knowledge.  thus hiring a marketing consultant is not in the budget._
> _
> judging by the wording of the post, i have a hard time believing the OP had any intention other than self promotion.



That's a fair point, thanks for the callout. I should've made my intentions for market research clear. Yes, this IS strictly market so that I can also make a vid of it on my YouTube Channel to get the advice out. As far as a marketing process goes, I'd be putting a complete sales funnel and value ladder together starting off with a freebie for people to use. My only intentions with this forum would be coming up with ideas to cover in my videos. Also, you bring up a fair point, hoshin1600. Start-up capital and lack of business savvy DO tend to be two of the largest obstacles for quite a few. I've seen some guys go "garage-days" like the Gracies started before they had to expand. But as far as business knowledge, would their immediate concerns be getting a business coach instead?


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## pdg

hoshin1600 said:


> correct, market research is good.  i didnt read it like that.  what i read was this.....
> 
> "_ I've seen some really awesome instructors who really know their stuff, but can't really get a school running because they lack savvy in ... marketing.
> maybe i can make a post on this web sight and maybe someone will hire me."
> _
> the OP states that good instructors cant get their MA school off the ground due to marketing.  i feel that is a bit of confirmation bias.  MA schools biggest problem is usually lack of start up capital and lack of business knowledge.  thus hiring a marketing consultant is not in the budget._
> _
> judging by the wording of the post, i have a hard time believing the OP had any intention other than self promotion.



Obviously we interpreted it slightly differently - you seemed to imply he was touting for business here initially.

I read it more like "I see a potential gap in the market for an MA oriented marketing system, so I'm asking here from people who may have had the same problems".

If that were to lead on to self promotion I personally still wouldn't have an issue with it though - if the research led to valid marketing methods which he charged for (which I assumed was the intention from the start) then sure he'd be helping himself, but also helping people grow their schools. Win/win in my book.

Thing is, if someone came on saying they're trying to start a school but are having trouble with the business side of it, people would likely advise to see a business coach - if they said they're having trouble with sales and marketing they'd likely get told to see a marketing person.

Would this not be simply helping to expand the range of marketeers available, and one with specific (rather than generic) MA marketing ideas?

I may have implied too much negativity into your first reply as well of course


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## hoshin1600

pdg said:


> I may have implied too much negativity into your first reply as well of course


implied negativity??......i thought i was fairly obvious in my negativity 
but by design.   if it was a covert method of drumming up business i think that is against the TOS for martial talk.  but if not then i felt he would clarify and he has ....so we are all good.


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## hoshin1600

martialartsnerd said:


> But as far as business knowledge, would their immediate concerns be getting a business coach instead?


well the problem there is ignorance (not knowing)  often people are not aware of how much they dont know.  they think they know karate so it is self apparent that they can open a school.   6 month later they are hemorrhaging money and dont know why.


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## Gerry Seymour

Two areas I've seen stymie school start-ups. As others have pointed out, starting capital is an issue in many cases. For those starting out with a program in a shared space, this is less of an issue - we get to build up our equipment and such over time, and the shared space doesn't usually require (or, in fact, allow) any upgrades. I started with an 8x8' mat space and my personal practice equipment, and used fee income to get everything else I currently have for the program.

Even when there's enough start-up capital, or with shared-space startups, I see instructors struggle with getting students. This is less an issue when kids classes are involved (those seem to be easier to fill), but a significant barrier to building adult programs. Sometimes this is mitigated by foot traffic in shared spaces (like a larger YMCA), but I've never found that helps much in the spaces I've used. For me, this is the biggest barrier - just getting enough prospective students to walk in the door.


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## marques

1. Find a suitable and affordable place.
2. Find students to fill the room.

The point 1 was the hardest. The point 2 was easier because I booked a small room.  And, as part of an organisation, I was selling ‘only’ local and convenient training, which would give them access to other (many) events with different (and better) instructors and complementary subjects.


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## Buka

Installing the bathrooms.


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## WaterGal

martialartsnerd said:


> That's a fair point, thanks for the callout. I should've made my intentions for market research clear. Yes, this IS strictly market so that I can also make a vid of it on my YouTube Channel to get the advice out. As far as a marketing process goes, I'd be putting a complete sales funnel and value ladder together starting off with a freebie for people to use. My only intentions with this forum would be coming up with ideas to cover in my videos. Also, you bring up a fair point, hoshin1600. Start-up capital and lack of business savvy DO tend to be two of the largest obstacles for quite a few. I've seen some guys go "garage-days" like the Gracies started before they had to expand. But as far as business knowledge, would their immediate concerns be getting a business coach instead?



I think that business coaching would be more valuable to most beginning school owners than just marketing services. Having the best SEO, or nice flyers, doesn't help too much if you don't have good business processes in place.


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## pdg

WaterGal said:


> I think that business coaching would be more valuable to most beginning school owners than just marketing services. Having the best SEO, or nice flyers, doesn't help too much if you don't have good business processes in place.



I think you need a balance - the best business processes don't mean much without anyone giving you income...

I know I could significantly grow my own business with some good targeted marketing - but I really don't think I want to because that'd mean doing more work


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## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> Two areas I've seen stymie school start-ups. As others have pointed out, starting capital is an issue in many cases. For those starting out with a program in a shared space, this is less of an issue - we get to build up our equipment and such over time, and the shared space doesn't usually require (or, in fact, allow) any upgrades. I started with an 8x8' mat space and my personal practice equipment, and used fee income to get everything else I currently have for the program.
> 
> Even when there's enough start-up capital, or with shared-space startups, I see instructors struggle with getting students. This is less an issue when kids classes are involved (those seem to be easier to fill), but a significant barrier to building adult programs. Sometimes this is mitigated by foot traffic in shared spaces (like a larger YMCA), but I've never found that helps much in the spaces I've used. For me, this is the biggest barrier - just getting enough prospective students to walk in the door.



That's something I've noticed with the instructors I know personally who are in the garage-days phase. I would certainly love to figure out how to help them market to the older crowds so that they can give their attention there. Out of the three instructors I've gotten to know, one of them watered down his Taekwondo so as to attract a following of kids, and I also feel that this is because of how it's attracting uninformed consumers, another problem I want to solve with the marketing that I'm learning.


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## Gerry Seymour

WaterGal said:


> I think that business coaching would be more valuable to most beginning school owners than just marketing services. Having the best SEO, or nice flyers, doesn't help too much if you don't have good business processes in place.


There’s a bit of a chicken-and-egg koan there. Hard to say one is more urgent than the other. With no students, business savvy doesn’t make much difference


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## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> That's something I've noticed with the instructors I know personally who are in the garage-days phase. I would certainly love to figure out how to help them market to the older crowds so that they can give their attention there. Out of the three instructors I've gotten to know, one of them watered down his Taekwondo so as to attract a following of kids, and I also feel that this is because of how it's attracting uninformed consumers, another problem I want to solve with the marketing that I'm learning.


Most instructors I know would love to do better attracting adults.


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## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> That's a fair point, thanks for the callout. I should've made my intentions for market research clear. Yes, this IS strictly market so that I can also make a vid of it on my YouTube Channel to get the advice out. As far as a marketing process goes, I'd be putting a complete sales funnel and value ladder together starting off with a freebie for people to use. My only intentions with this forum would be coming up with ideas to cover in my videos. Also, you bring up a fair point, hoshin1600. Start-up capital and lack of business savvy DO tend to be two of the largest obstacles for quite a few. I've seen some guys go "garage-days" like the Gracies started before they had to expand. But as far as business knowledge, would their immediate concerns be getting a business coach instead?


For me, definitely not. A business coach is one of the newest and biggest rip-offs out there. Just a new phrase to try and spin.


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## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> For me, definitely not. A business coach is one of the newest and biggest rip-offs out there. Just a new phrase to try and spin.



Interesting that you'd put it that way. What kind of business coaches have you run into?


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## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> Most instructors I know would love to do better attracting adults.



That's exactly what I'm out to solve, especially when you get to the more obscure styles (in the US, anyway). I still need to take a look into the martial arts scene in other countries and figure out how popular some styles are versus others. But if I'm to start here, in the US, I wanna focus down on the instructors who want to make a living by teaching legitimate martial arts and/or self-defense instead of running the risk of becoming a McDojo.


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## pdg

dvcochran said:


> For me, definitely not. A business coach is one of the newest and biggest rip-offs out there. Just a new phrase to try and spin.



Depends on how you define it really.

To me, a business coach would be someone who can assist with stuff like finding out what regulatory compliance is required (if any), how to manage accounts or whether an accountant would be better, what to spend money on without being wasteful, insurance requirements, advertising - that sort of thing.

Loads of people have great ideas that could be transformed into good businesses, but don't know where or how to start so never do anything with it.

Equally, loads of people have good ideas and make an attempt to start a business, but end up bankrupt within a year because they don't know how to manage the business side of things.

Why is it such a ripoff?


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## dvcochran

pdg said:


> Depends on how you define it really.
> 
> To me, a business coach would be someone who can assist with stuff like finding out what regulatory compliance is required (if any), how to manage accounts or whether an accountant would be better, what to spend money on without being wasteful, insurance requirements, advertising - that sort of thing.
> 
> Loads of people have great ideas that could be transformed into good businesses, but don't know where or how to start so never do anything with it.
> 
> Equally, loads of people have good ideas and make an attempt to start a business, but end up bankrupt within a year because they don't know how to manage the business side of things.
> I
> Why is it such a ripoff?



What is a business coach?
It helps you make better use of your time. The *definition* of *coaching*, in a *business* context, has the two following aspects: *Coaching* is an approach to management — how one carries out the role of being a manager. *Coaching* is a set of skills for managing employee performance to deliver results.

So a "business coach" is a manager, ala, leading other skilled employees. The fledgling Dojo/Dojang will usually have one employee. I get these queries all the time asking if I think a coach would be helpful, and the answer is always no. It is nothing more that a buzz word used In marketing to lull people into something they do not need or already have.
In the new school scenario, who can afford to pay for this? These needs have to be covered in the initial business plan (where a lot of the eventual failure comes from). Of course the plan will be adjusted as things change.


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## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> For me, definitely not. A business coach is one of the newest and biggest rip-offs out there. Just a new phrase to try and spin.


Some are. Some aren't. Just like "consultant", etc. If it delivers value, it's not a rip-off.


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## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> That's exactly what I'm out to solve, especially when you get to the more obscure styles (in the US, anyway). I still need to take a look into the martial arts scene in other countries and figure out how popular some styles are versus others. But if I'm to start here, in the US, I wanna focus down on the instructors who want to make a living by teaching legitimate martial arts and/or self-defense instead of running the risk of becoming a McDojo.


I'd be happy to have a discussion (phone would be quickest) to share what I've experienced and seen with others, if that helps.


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## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> What is a business coach?
> It helps you make better use of your time. The *definition* of *coaching*, in a *business* context, has the two following aspects: *Coaching* is an approach to management — how one carries out the role of being a manager. *Coaching* is a set of skills for managing employee performance to deliver results.
> 
> So a "business coach" is a manager, ala, leading other skilled employees. The fledgling Dojo/Dojang will usually have one employee. I get these queries all the time asking if I think a coach would be helpful, and the answer is always no. It is nothing more that a buzz word used In marketing to lull people into something they do not need or already have.
> In the new school scenario, who can afford to pay for this? These needs have to be covered in the initial business plan (where a lot of the eventual failure comes from). Of course the plan will be adjusted as things change.


That's not at all the common definition of "business coach". Coaching is more than a method of management - it's also a method of consulting (less "doing with" than consulting, usually). I've done what most would consider "business coaching" to help people get through the start-up phase on a business, and all of those were one-person businesses. I wasn't teaching them how to manage and coach a team, but helping them sort out what they needed to cover and take care of to get their business started.


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## hoshin1600

@dvcochran ..thats not what i see a business coach as doing in the entrepreneurial world (maybe in the corporate world).
maybe it is a new concept like a "life coach"  that many do not really need but i would say the majority of karate school owners would not even know where to begin on a business plan. to be honest it took me years to even understand how one would be beneficial to me.
i would want a business coach more that a marketing director or outside company... sorry OP 
i find in my area a marketing company costs $1000.  just as a starting consulting fee. the last company i talked to charged $10 thousand dollars to create a web sight.
i wanted them to create a logo and company image,  ok so its $1000.  for the initial consult....but what if the logo they create sucks and looks like a disney character??  they charge 10k for a web sight?  their own web sight is not that great , why would i want them to create mine?

if the OP wants to solve a problem, try starting with create a product that people will pay for (without the snooty attitude of how great they are as marketers)  and only charge them if the consumer wants the product.

sorry going off on a little rant there...


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## pdg

Yeah, as said - that's completely not what a business coach does @dvcochran 

What they can do though is assist with getting your business plan sorted out for finance applications - that sort of thing.

I've never heard of a business coach being an employee, they come and consult, then leave.


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## WaterGal

For what it's worth, I worked with a martial arts business coaching program for a while to help with our school. I went to a weekend seminar that taught me about how to teach a better intro class, to sell memberships, to train up students to become staff members, and things like that. I got templates for management handbooks, lead tracking procedures and other business processes, as well as some promotional material, and instructions on how to run certain events to attract new students. That was a big help, and I wish we'd had something like that from the beginning.


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## GojuTommy

hoshin1600 said:


> Little ironic...it seems like your soliciting for clients with this Webb sight thread. Not a very effective method to do that. It's not a very productive way to market yourself....thus we will assume your marketing of a school probably won't be that great.


You generally seem like a negative person


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## GojuTommy

For me a bit of back story.

When i started training the head instructor had a good tech job he’d been at for a while and made plenty of money off of long hours, so he could afford hand people their money back for the month if they or their parent weren’t up to his standards.

He lost that job and had to take a new lower paying job and couldn’t afford to run things as he used to, and that’s when things started going down hill. Kids always made up 60%+ or more of the students, but he used to push them, now over bearing and over protective parents get mad when instructors do that, so to keep the meat and potatoes of the student base he gives in and doesn’t push as much, its gotten worse and worse each year making it harder for older kids and adults to take the school and instructors seriously so they don’t stick around long....so basically in my experience if you’re teaching kids a LOT of parents want little more than a glorified day care...which isnt conducive to attracting older students and a lot parents will pull their kids out if you are to stern with their kids.


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## dvcochran

pdg said:


> Yeah, as said - that's completely not what a business coach does @dvcochran
> 
> What they can do though is assist with getting your business plan sorted out for finance applications - that sort of thing.
> 
> I've never heard of a business coach being an employee, they come and consult, then leave.


Yes, they "train" the manager to manage. Yada, yada, yada.


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## pdg

dvcochran said:


> Yes, they "train" the manager to manage. Yada, yada, yada.



No, that's not what they do at all, at least not here.

What you're describing is a management consultant - or a managerial skills course.

A business coach, as I've previously said, is there to help someone start a business or improve a small company.

Get the term "manager" and "management" completely out of the equation - it has no place here. In fact, while you're there eject the notion of staff completely - then we might get somewhere.

I really don't know how to convey the concept any better while you're so closed to the idea that your impression is woefully wrong.


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## dvcochran

hoshin1600 said:


> @dvcochran ..thats not what i see a business coach as doing in the entrepreneurial world (maybe in the corporate world).
> maybe it is a new concept like a "life coach"  that many do not really need but i would say the majority of karate school owners would not even know where to begin on a business plan. to be honest it took me years to even understand how one would be beneficial to me.
> i would want a business coach more that a marketing director or outside company... sorry OP
> i find in my area a marketing company costs $1000.  just as a starting consulting fee. the last company i talked to charged $10 thousand dollars to create a web sight.
> i wanted them to create a logo and company image,  ok so its $1000.  for the initial consult....but what if the logo they create sucks and looks like a disney character??  they charge 10k for a web sight?  their own web sight is not that great , swould i want them to create mine?
> 
> if the OP wants to solve a problem, try starting with create a product that people will pay for (without the snooty attitude of how great they are as marketers)  and only charge them if the consumer wants the product.
> 
> sorry going off on a little rant there...



It behooves any potential owner to research everything. It is the age of information (and misinformation) so standard models for just about anything can be established. Aside, I hope you have other options because those are insane prices. If someone has the unction to say "hey I am opening a Dojo because I am really good at MA" , that has to be just the first step of the thought process. Any thinking person who lives on a budget should understand the basic elements and build from there. The resources are out there. They just have to be smart about their time and its effectiveness.


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## dvcochran

pdg said:


> No, that's not what they do at all, at least not here.
> 
> What you're describing is a management consultant - or a managerial skills course.
> 
> A business coach, as I've previously said, is there to help someone start a business or improve a small company.
> 
> Get the term "manager" and "management" completely out of the equation - it has no place here. In fact, while you're there eject the notion of staff completely - then we might get somewhere.
> 
> I really don't know how to convey the concept any better while you're so closed to the idea that your impression is woefully wrong.


I have seen a few business coaches in the work process and have had do deal with a few in meetings they no business in but had convinced a manager they needed to be there. They were quickly asked to leave because they were unable to add any value to the topic of the meeting. The strict definition of a business coach pertains to managers.
Ok, I will get away from what a business coach is. I do not mean to be closed minded. My quandary is, of coarse a school will fail if the owner doesn't even have basic budget skills.


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## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> That's not at all the common definition of "business coach". Coaching is more than a method of management - it's also a method of consulting (less "doing with" than consulting, usually). I've done what most would consider "business coaching" to help people get through the start-up phase on a business, and all of those were one-person businesses. I wasn't teaching them how to manage and coach a team, but helping them sort out what they needed to cover and take care of to get their business started.



Then why not call a spade a spade. They are consultants. The Coaching term is just the same thing with a new coat of paint.


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## pdg

dvcochran said:


> It behooves any potential owner to research everything. It is the age of information (and misinformation) so standard models for just about anything can be established. Aside, I hope you have other options because those are insane prices. If someone has the unction to say "hey I am opening a Dojo because I am really good at MA" , that has to be just the first step of the thought process. Any thinking person who lives on a budget should understand the basic elements and build from there. The resources are out there. They just have to be smart about their time and its effectiveness.



So what's wrong with a reliable short cut in the process?

As you said, there is information and misinformation abound - instead of spending weeks or months sifting through to find what's good and what isn't (and potentially wasting resources and/or destroying your idea on something that isn't good) is it not sometimes better to invest in someone else's knowledge?

People do it all the time when they bring in specialised consultants (or even full time staff) - they pay someone to do things they are unable/unwilling/unjustified to do themselves.

It could be said that enlisting the services of a business coach is being smart with time and resources and getting the maximum effectiveness out of investment.


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## pdg

dvcochran said:


> I have seen a few business coaches in the work process and have had do deal with a few in meetings they no business in but had convinced a manager they needed to be there. They were quickly asked to leave because they were unable to add any value to the topic of the meeting. The strict definition of a business coach pertains to managers.
> Ok, I will get away from what a business coach is.



Right, ok - I see now we have another English vs English semantics issue...

In English English, that is not at all what a business coach does or would generally do.

That's what a management development consultant would do.


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## dvcochran

pdg said:


> So what's wrong with a reliable short cut in the process?
> 
> As you said, there is information and misinformation abound - instead of spending weeks or months sifting through to find what's good and what isn't (and potentially wasting resources and/or destroying your idea on something that isn't good) is it not sometimes better to invest in someone else's knowledge?
> 
> People do it all the time when they bring in specialised consultants (or even full time staff) - they pay someone to do things they are unable/unwilling/unjustified to do themselves.
> 
> It could be said that enlisting the services of a business coach is being smart with time and resources and getting the maximum effectiveness out of investment.


Now you are delving into a larger business environment which is just not the way a fledging Dojo is. The value in doing the research is because the fledging Dojo doesn't have the funds to do it any other way. There are many human resources out there that cost little or no money, i.e., your local Chamber of Commerce, the BBB, etc... Sure, when you have more than the broad brush strokes of a solid plan in place recruit the elements to make it happen. 
You hit the nail on the head. Coach in just a new buzzword for a Consultant. A new marketing ploy.


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## pdg

dvcochran said:


> There are many human resources out there that cost little or no money, i.e., your local Chamber of Commerce, the BBB



We have equivalents here - they offer 'coaching' services for start-ups...


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## martialartsnerd

hoshin1600 said:


> @dvcochran ..thats not what i see a business coach as doing in the entrepreneurial world (maybe in the corporate world).
> maybe it is a new concept like a "life coach"  that many do not really need but i would say the majority of karate school owners would not even know where to begin on a business plan. to be honest it took me years to even understand how one would be beneficial to me.
> i would want a business coach more that a marketing director or outside company... sorry OP
> i find in my area a marketing company costs $1000.  just as a starting consulting fee. the last company i talked to charged $10 thousand dollars to create a web sight.
> i wanted them to create a logo and company image,  ok so its $1000.  for the initial consult....but what if the logo they create sucks and looks like a disney character??  they charge 10k for a web sight?  their own web sight is not that great , why would i want them to create mine?
> 
> if the OP wants to solve a problem, try starting with create a product that people will pay for (without the snooty attitude of how great they are as marketers)  and only charge them if the consumer wants the product.
> 
> sorry going off on a little rant there...



Seems like a bad run-in with a high-ticket marketing agency of sorts. Although some posts here have demonstrated a need for what I do, given your angle, a marketing agency/consultant/etc. would just be an out-and-out bad fit. Understandable, given your experience. Mind telling me more about this bunch you ran into so that I can get a good feel for the pros and cons of what they were up to?


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## martialartsnerd

GojuTommy said:


> For me a bit of back story.
> 
> When i started training the head instructor had a good tech job he’d been at for a while and made plenty of money off of long hours, so he could afford hand people their money back for the month if they or their parent weren’t up to his standards.
> 
> He lost that job and had to take a new lower paying job and couldn’t afford to run things as he used to, and that’s when things started going down hill. Kids always made up 60%+ or more of the students, but he used to push them, now over bearing and over protective parents get mad when instructors do that, so to keep the meat and potatoes of the student base he gives in and doesn’t push as much, its gotten worse and worse each year making it harder for older kids and adults to take the school and instructors seriously so they don’t stick around long....so basically in my experience if you’re teaching kids a LOT of parents want little more than a glorified day care...which isnt conducive to attracting older students and a lot parents will pull their kids out if you are to stern with their kids.



This is EXACTLY the problem that I'm out to solve. It makes me absolutely livid to see a potentially great martial arts school have to cave in because the clientele they attract forces them to water down to "karate lite" or some similar nonsense. It's perhaps the biggest reason why I want to become a marketer/marketing consultant for martial arts instructors so that I can start taking steps to ending that trend of making martial arts schools overglorified daycares. With good marketing comes good positioning, and by positioning an instructor as an authority in their field by way of education marketing rather than "traditional" marketing, I can start turning such a situation around.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> I'd be happy to have a discussion (phone would be quickest) to share what I've experienced and seen with others, if that helps.



Absolutely! Feel free to PM me if you want to set a time aside and get that discussion going!


----------



## martialartsnerd

WaterGal said:


> For what it's worth, I worked with a martial arts business coaching program for a while to help with our school. I went to a weekend seminar that taught me about how to teach a better intro class, to sell memberships, to train up students to become staff members, and things like that. I got templates for management handbooks, lead tracking procedures and other business processes, as well as some promotional material, and instructions on how to run certain events to attract new students. That was a big help, and I wish we'd had something like that from the beginning.



Interesting. Which demographic did they specifically target with their strategies and could I know more about this program? Personally, given that my own mission is to stop the martial arts school that I aim to work with from becoming a McDojo (an overglorified daycare), I could learn a thing or two from them as well, even if we're helping schools target COMPLETELY different demographics.


----------



## hoshin1600

martialartsnerd said:


> Seems like a bad run-in with a high-ticket marketing agency of sorts. Although some posts here have demonstrated a need for what I do, given your angle, a marketing agency/consultant/etc. would just be an out-and-out bad fit. Understandable, given your experience. Mind telling me more about this bunch you ran into so that I can get a good feel for the pros and cons of what they were up to?


for starters it was more than one company that charge those prices in my area and the way of doing business was the same.  that being said the one group i sat down with didnt go so well.  i wanted a logo designed and consistent design image for all marketing materials including the web sight. i am creating a brand and this is what a marketing company does.  being the way i am, i show up at their location (which wasnt impressive, in a warehouse over an indoor flee market)  they seemed completely shocked and unnerved by my being there. i got the feeling they do most of their first contact work on line and meet clients at the clients location but the owner was willing to sit with me and talk about my needs. i mentioned the name of my business and right off she was telling me the name is too confusing and will never work (Kerberos Combatives).  her basic sales pitch in my estimation is that everyone is stupid and doesnt know anything about marketing except her and she can solve my problems.  having been in sales for many years i can tell you she my know marketing but her salesmanship sucks.  i would never tell a potential client that their ideas are horrible (even if they really do) at the first sit down. 
here is a snipet from their web sight:
*"Brand Archetypes.*
_Influencing audience behavior often comes down to intangible factors which create an inexplicable preference or feeling on the part of the consumer. Our archetyping process will determine the right identity for your brand, we then develop a set of clearly defined personality attributes to drive consumer perceptions and expectations, making it easier for them to differentiate and form a relationship with your brand."
_
i was never asked for my vision of the company,  who is my target audience.   im sure they have no clue about what combatives is and who would be interested in it or what consumers expect for an image.  a good marketing company will listen to what ideas the owner has and try to guide and mold those ideas into a working model.  i want to see my seedling ideas grow into something not be dictated and talked down to.  i can assume there is a big difference between working with the corporate world and working with entrepreneurs.
_


_


----------



## martialartsnerd

hoshin1600 said:


> for starters it was more than one company that charge those prices in my area and the way of doing business was the same.  that being said the one group i sat down with didnt go so well.  i wanted a logo designed and consistent design image for all marketing materials including the web sight. i am creating a brand and this is what a marketing company does.  being the way i am, i show up at their location (which wasnt impressive, in a warehouse over an indoor flee market)  they seemed completely shocked and unnerved by my being there. i got the feeling they do most of their first contact work on line and meet clients at the clients location but the owner was willing to sit with me and talk about my needs. i mentioned the name of my business and right off she was telling me the name is too confusing and will never work (Kerberos Combatives).  her basic sales pitch in my estimation is that everyone is stupid and doesnt know anything about marketing except her and she can solve my problems.  having been in sales for many years i can tell you she my know marketing but her salesmanship sucks.  i would never tell a potential client that their ideas are horrible (even if they really do) at the first sit down.
> here is a snipet from their web sight:
> *"Brand Archetypes.*
> _Influencing audience behavior often comes down to intangible factors which create an inexplicable preference or feeling on the part of the consumer. Our archetyping process will determine the right identity for your brand, we then develop a set of clearly defined personality attributes to drive consumer perceptions and expectations, making it easier for them to differentiate and form a relationship with your brand."
> _
> i was never asked for my vision of the company,  who is my target audience.   im sure they have no clue about what combatives is and who would be interested in it or what consumers expect for an image.  a good marketing company will listen to what ideas the owner has and try to guide and mold those ideas into a working model.  i want to see my seedling ideas grow into something not be dictated and talked down to.  i can assume there is a big difference between working with the corporate world and working with entrepreneurs.
> _
> 
> _



Jesus Christ, that was just case-in-point horrible. You were right to turn around and go the other direction. They couldn't even qualify your needs, let alone everything else that they would've needed in order to work most effectively with you. Thanks for that horror story, man. It's a shining example of what NOT to do with my fledgling business.


----------



## pdg

hoshin1600 said:


> Kerberos Combatives



Hell hound? 

(Well, more correctly 'hound of hades', aka Cerberus, depending on which language it's being derived from...)

Not really that confusing...


----------



## GojuTommy

martialartsnerd said:


> This is EXACTLY the problem that I'm out to solve. It makes me absolutely livid to see a potentially great martial arts school have to cave in because the clientele they attract forces them to water down to "karate lite" or some similar nonsense. It's perhaps the biggest reason why I want to become a marketer/marketing consultant for martial arts instructors so that I can start taking steps to ending that trend of making martial arts schools overglorified daycares. With good marketing comes good positioning, and by positioning an instructor as an authority in their field by way of education marketing rather than "traditional" marketing, I can start turning such a situation around.


The best answer I can come up with is just don’t teach children under 16 or so if unless all you care about is making money. If you care about teaching real martial arts that can be used for real self defense and/or full contact sparring focus on older students...and also in my experience lower-middle class and poorer families are less likely to be over protective and helicopter parents than upper middle class and rich families, but that puts pretty tight constraints on the fees you can charge.


----------



## Jaeimseu

GojuTommy said:


> The best answer I can come up with is just don’t teach children under 16 or so if unless all you care about is making money. If you care about teaching real martial arts that can be used for real self defense and/or full contact sparring focus on older students...and also in my experience lower-middle class and poorer families are less likely to be over protective and helicopter parents than upper middle class and rich families, but that puts pretty tight constraints on the fees you can charge.



Unfortunately, everything you mention here is why it is so incredibly difficult to survive as that type of business. The margin for error is so small in terms of success and failure. I’d consider it irresponsible as a business owner to not make as much money as you can. I think teaching real martial arts is important, too. Providing a quality service is crucial, but you won’t be teaching anyone if you can’t pay the rent. I think anyone wanting to focus on a such a relatively small market as adults (who want real martial arts with contact, etc.) would be crazy to open without consulting with/getting coaching from someone who has done it (more than once). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hoshin1600

GojuTommy said:


> When i started training the head instructor had a good tech job he’d been at for a while and made plenty of money off of long hours, so he could afford hand people their money back for the month if they or their parent weren’t up to his standards.





GojuTommy said:


> he gives in and doesn’t push as much, its gotten worse and worse each year making it harder for older kids and adults to take the school and instructors seriously





martialartsnerd said:


> It makes me absolutely livid to see a potentially great martial arts school have to cave in because the clientele they attract forces them to water down to "karate lite"



the reality is the teacher/ owner messed up big time.  lets not blame the kids or parents.  no potentially great martial arts school is forced to water down their karate.  instructors do that because they lack the personal and business skills to handle the situation any other way.  reading this story, what is see is a hobbyist instructor who was forced to become a business man without the desire or the skills to do so.  
the first major red flag is that the owner would reimburse monthly tuition??? what the hell kind of practice is that?  then he abruptly changes course and starts actually charging for his time when he created a consumer expectation of getting their money back.   this is so bad that i am sure it is just the tip of the iceberg of business errors.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Then why not call a spade a spade. They are consultants. The Coaching term is just the same thing with a new coat of paint.


I'd use the term "consultant". Others use the term "business coach". The latter - to me - is more specific, and I'd have a different set of expectations (for instance, I'd expect a business coach to be good at building a formal business plan, which is something I don't really do).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> Right, ok - I see now we have another English vs English semantics issue...
> 
> In English English, that is not at all what a business coach does or would generally do.
> 
> That's what a management development consultant would do.


That's not what I'd call a "business coach", either. That sounds like a management or executive coach. And there's good reason they sometimes go to meetings others might not understand their presence in. Of course, it would be up to the manager they are coaching to explain their presence properly to others.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Now you are delving into a larger business environment which is just not the way a fledging Dojo is. The value in doing the research is because the fledging Dojo doesn't have the funds to do it any other way. There are many human resources out there that cost little or no money, i.e., your local Chamber of Commerce, the BBB, etc... Sure, when you have more than the broad brush strokes of a solid plan in place recruit the elements to make it happen.
> You hit the nail on the head. Coach in just a new buzzword for a Consultant. A new marketing ploy.


You're assuming they don't have the funds. Nearly every small business I've worked with (as vendor, client, or whatever) has hired outside experts to help with something. Many have marketing consultants/coaches (in the "solopreneur" world, those terms are pretty much interchangeable). One person can rarely know everything about a business, and coaching isn't always a hellishly expensive thing. I could find someone a marketing coach or systematization coach for far less than the cost of mats to start a dojo.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> for starters it was more than one company that charge those prices in my area and the way of doing business was the same.  that being said the one group i sat down with didnt go so well.  i wanted a logo designed and consistent design image for all marketing materials including the web sight. i am creating a brand and this is what a marketing company does.  being the way i am, i show up at their location (which wasnt impressive, in a warehouse over an indoor flee market)  they seemed completely shocked and unnerved by my being there. i got the feeling they do most of their first contact work on line and meet clients at the clients location but the owner was willing to sit with me and talk about my needs. i mentioned the name of my business and right off she was telling me the name is too confusing and will never work (Kerberos Combatives).  her basic sales pitch in my estimation is that everyone is stupid and doesnt know anything about marketing except her and she can solve my problems.  having been in sales for many years i can tell you she my know marketing but her salesmanship sucks.  i would never tell a potential client that their ideas are horrible (even if they really do) at the first sit down.
> here is a snipet from their web sight:
> *"Brand Archetypes.*
> _Influencing audience behavior often comes down to intangible factors which create an inexplicable preference or feeling on the part of the consumer. Our archetyping process will determine the right identity for your brand, we then develop a set of clearly defined personality attributes to drive consumer perceptions and expectations, making it easier for them to differentiate and form a relationship with your brand."
> _
> i was never asked for my vision of the company,  who is my target audience.   im sure they have no clue about what combatives is and who would be interested in it or what consumers expect for an image.  a good marketing company will listen to what ideas the owner has and try to guide and mold those ideas into a working model.  i want to see my seedling ideas grow into something not be dictated and talked down to.  i can assume there is a big difference between working with the corporate world and working with entrepreneurs.
> _
> 
> _


Hell, I could do better with brand consulting than that (and I suck at it).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

GojuTommy said:


> The best answer I can come up with is just don’t teach children under 16 or so if unless all you care about is making money. If you care about teaching real martial arts that can be used for real self defense and/or full contact sparring focus on older students...and also in my experience lower-middle class and poorer families are less likely to be over protective and helicopter parents than upper middle class and rich families, but that puts pretty tight constraints on the fees you can charge.


I can't agree with that, though that is my personal practice. One thing I've noticed is that teaching kids helps instructors attract adults (parents sometimes join where their kids train). And kids grow up, so the 10-year-olds are eventually over 16. And kids' classes can be taught well, and can help fund adult classes (which are harder to populate). I don't know any full-time schools (surely there are some, but I don't know any) that don't teach kids.


----------



## GojuTommy

gpseymour said:


> I can't agree with that, though that is my personal practice. One thing I've noticed is that teaching kids helps instructors attract adults (parents sometimes join where their kids train). And kids grow up, so the 10-year-olds are eventually over 16. And kids' classes can be taught well, and can help fund adult classes (which are harder to populate). I don't know any full-time schools (surely there are some, but I don't know any) that don't teach kids.


The kids do grow up, but they don’t like it much in my experience when things suddenly get rough, and again, the parents don’t tend to like it much and get up set about the shift in teaching methods/style.
If they’ve brought their 10yr old to you for 6 years they approved of the way you were doing and often (in my experience) don’t like seeing that change.
Explaining that they’re older and bullies are more likely to get more aggressive and be much stronger etc. typically doesn’t seem to work to persuade them either in my experience.

Some times parents will join after their kids have been there for a while but again in my experience that’s not very common, because they’re looking for a place to dump their kid(s) so they can be rid of them.


----------



## GojuTommy

hoshin1600 said:


> the reality is the teacher/ owner messed up big time.  lets not blame the kids or parents.  no potentially great martial arts school is forced to water down their karate.  instructors do that because they lack the personal and business skills to handle the situation any other way.  reading this story, what is see is a hobbyist instructor who was forced to become a business man without the desire or the skills to do so.
> the first major red flag is that the owner would reimburse monthly tuition??? what the hell kind of practice is that?  then he abruptly changes course and starts actually charging for his time when he created a consumer expectation of getting their money back.   this is so bad that i am sure it is just the tip of the iceberg of business errors.


Yes he made business mistakes, but most parents these days are pansies and too worried about their kids getting a boo boo, or having their precious unique child’s feelings hurt. so they get mad if you don’t coddle them.

To be honest if that hasn’t been your experience then you are probably already at that level.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

GojuTommy said:


> The kids do grow up, but they don’t like it much in my experience when things suddenly get rough, and again, the parents don’t tend to like it much and get up set about the shift in teaching methods/style.
> If they’ve brought their 10yr old to you for 6 years they approved of the way you were doing and often (in my experience) don’t like seeing that change.
> Explaining that they’re older and bullies are more likely to get more aggressive and be much stronger etc. typically doesn’t seem to work to persuade them either in my experience.
> 
> Some times parents will join after their kids have been there for a while but again in my experience that’s not very common, because they’re looking for a place to dump their kid(s) so they can be rid of them.


I've had a different experience. Several of my training partners (and students I taught) were people who came to the school and joined as a family. Some of my younger training partners were people who'd started as kids and trained into their adulthood. Class gets rougher, but when they get to adult classes, they are adult beginners, so it's not a sudden change. It's not like they go from mid-colors as a youth to mid-colors as an adult in a week.


----------



## JR 137

GojuTommy said:


> The kids do grow up, but they don’t like it much in my experience when things suddenly get rough, and again, the parents don’t tend to like it much and get up set about the shift in teaching methods/style.
> If they’ve brought their 10yr old to you for 6 years they approved of the way you were doing and often (in my experience) don’t like seeing that change.
> Explaining that they’re older and bullies are more likely to get more aggressive and be much stronger etc. typically doesn’t seem to work to persuade them either in my experience.
> 
> Some times parents will join after their kids have been there for a while but again in my experience that’s not very common, because they’re looking for a place to dump their kid(s) so they can be rid of them.


From what I’ve seen, most kids eventually leave for other reasons...

Kids get bored.  Once that initial learning a lot of new stuff ends and far more repetition than new material really sets in, they feel like they’ve learned enough and get bored with it.

Kids have a lot going on.  They play sports.  They get a little older and discover the opposite sex.  They get serious about school.  They want more time to hang out with their friends.  The busier they get, something’s got to take a back seat.

Kids grow older and move away.  I didn’t start until I was 18, but there were plenty of guys around my age who’d been there quite a while before me.  I left to go away to grad school.  A few left to go away for undergrad.  Two left for the military.  Two others went to the police academy.  There were a bunch of us between 18-22 or so who trained as kids then left for that stuff.  That was my former dojo.  

Then there’s getting a bit older and life just gets in the way.  Starting a career, family, etc.  I guess that one depends on your definition of kids though.

A lot of people at my current dojo started due to their kids.  They watched their kids train for a while, then started training themselves instead of sitting there and watching.  Most of them stayed after their kids stopped.

Others at our dojo trained as kids, left for various reasons, then came back.  Out of all the adults, there’s very few at my current dojo that don’t fit into one of the last two examples.  We’re pretty small - about 20 or so adults, so it’s not the best cross-section of karate society.


----------



## Andrew Green

JR 137 said:


> From what I’ve seen, most kids eventually leave for other reasons...



Most people leave, regardless of their age.  Not all, but most.  We are the weird ones that stayed.


----------



## Andrew Green

GojuTommy said:


> The best answer I can come up with is just don’t teach children under 16 or so if unless all you care about is making money.



This is absolute crap.  I say this as a former kid and as someone that teaches a lot of kids.  What we do can have a very major and positive impact on children, more so then on adults in many ways.  This is like saying if you want to be a teacher only teach University, only teach kids if it's for the money.


----------



## JR 137

Andrew Green said:


> Most people leave, regardless of their age.  Not all, but most.  We are the weird ones that stayed.


Interesting thing is, people talk significantly more about the turnover in kids than the turnover in adults.  Perhaps that’s because they teach far more kids than adults?  I wonder the percentages are of adults leaving at each rank vs kids, ie A% of adults leave at 10th kyu vs B% of kids at 10th; C% of adults at 9th vs D% of kids, etc.

Perhaps we’re looking at the kids’ numbers far more because there’s usually far more of them?

I’ve been at my current dojo about 3.5 years.  There haven’t been very many adults join after me.  I’d say a little less than half are still there.  There been quite a few kids who’ve joined. Thinking about it quickly, I’d say the percentage is about the same.  Maybe a little higher for the kids, but not drastically if it is.  

We’ve got about 25 active adults, most of whom are black belts (I’m one of about 5 kyu ranks).  We’ve probably got about 40 active kids, of whom none are junior black belts.  I don’t think there’s many junior black belts in our entire organization because the age window is quite small - I think between 10 and 15.  I know 16 is the minimum adult BB age, and I haven’t seen any BB kids who looked like they were in less than 5th grade.  The low end of age is probably more due to the amount of time it takes kids to get through their syllabus proficiently rather than a set minimum age requirement though.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> Interesting thing is, people talk significantly more about the turnover in kids than the turnover in adults.  Perhaps that’s because they teach far more kids than adults?  I wonder the percentages are of adults leaving at each rank vs kids, ie A% of adults leave at 10th kyu vs B% of kids at 10th; C% of adults at 9th vs D% of kids, etc.
> 
> Perhaps we’re looking at the kids’ numbers far more because there’s usually far more of them?
> 
> I’ve been at my current dojo about 3.5 years.  There haven’t been very many adults join after me.  I’d say a little less than half are still there.  There been quite a few kids who’ve joined. Thinking about it quickly, I’d say the percentage is about the same.  Maybe a little higher for the kids, but not drastically if it is.
> 
> We’ve got about 25 active adults, most of whom are black belts (I’m one of about 5 kyu ranks).  We’ve probably got about 40 active kids, of whom none are junior black belts.  I don’t think there’s many junior black belts in our entire organization because the age window is quite small - I think between 10 and 15.  I know 16 is the minimum adult BB age, and I haven’t seen any BB kids who looked like they were in less than 5th grade.  The low end of age is probably more due to the amount of time it takes kids to get through their syllabus proficiently rather than a set minimum age requirement though.


In my passing observation, the "when will they quit" question has a different answer with kids. While the largest number of adults (who go to a first class) quit within the first month, I don't see that with kids. Kids quit because of boredom most often, and that takes a few months. Adults quit most often because of priorities, and that often happens before MA becomes a habit.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> In my passing observation, the "when will they quit" question has a different answer with kids. While the largest number of adults (who go to a first class) quit within the first month, I don't see that with kids. Kids quit because of boredom most often, and that takes a few months. Adults quit most often because of priorities, and that often happens before MA becomes a habit.


It’s confusing to convey, but I’ll try...

From what I’ve seen, adults that quit within the first 1-2 years quit sooner than kids who quit during the same time period.  But adults who stay past that time stay far longer than kids who do.

Perhaps it has to do with parents making the kids go for a while before they get tired of fighting with them about it vs an adult who can quit whenever they want?  Kind of along the lines of a kid who hates playing baseball after a few weeks being made to finish the season rather than quitting.  Not that there’s a season or even necessarily a predetermined rank in mind for the parents, but a lot of parents will (rightfully so) have the kids keep going for a while past the beginning of the “I don’t want to go anymore” stage to give it a chance to see if they change their mind about it.  Adults don’t have that person pushing them for the most part.  Adults can decide quickly that it’s not what they thought it would be; for the most part, parents take longer.  And parents would probably be more apt to make their kids finish out a contract than if it were their own contract when contracts come into play.

But both groups who’ve been around for some time and lost the desire to train within a year or so before black belt will stick around until they’re promoted to 1st dan, then quit soon afterwards.  They’ll typically have that mentality of “let me at least get my black belt before I leave.”

All just speculation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> From what I’ve seen, adults that quit within the first 1-2 years quit sooner than kids who quit during the same time period. But adults who stay past that time stay far longer than kids who do.


Yes! That's what I was trying to figure out how to say.



JR 137 said:


> But both groups who’ve been around for some time and lost the desire to train within a year or so before black belt will stick around until they’re promoted to 1st dan, then quit soon afterwards. They’ll typically have that mentality of “let me at least get my black belt before I leave.”


I haven't run into the "BB then leave" thing, but that might be because it takes so much more to get to that belt (actually, to brown, too) than previous belts, so folks who are going to quit just go ahead and quit. Most folks who made brown while I was a student also made black. Most folks who made black stuck around at least a couple of years. The "quitting time" was the middle belts. It gets boring for a bit, and I think a significant number quit after they get the 50 core techniques (shortly before brown) - it has some of that "at least let me get this" feel, and lets them avoid the harder testing at brown. We didn't have youth advanced belts (only 3 youth ranks), so this is only speaking about adults.


----------



## martialartsnerd

JR 137 said:


> From what I’ve seen, most kids eventually leave for other reasons...
> 
> Kids get bored.  Once that initial learning a lot of new stuff ends and far more repetition than new material really sets in, they feel like they’ve learned enough and get bored with it.
> 
> Kids have a lot going on.  They play sports.  They get a little older and discover the opposite sex.  They get serious about school.  They want more time to hang out with their friends.  The busier they get, something’s got to take a back seat.
> 
> Kids grow older and move away.  I didn’t start until I was 18, but there were plenty of guys around my age who’d been there quite a while before me.  I left to go away to grad school.  A few left to go away for undergrad.  Two left for the military.  Two others went to the police academy.  There were a bunch of us between 18-22 or so who trained as kids then left for that stuff.  That was my former dojo.
> 
> Then there’s getting a bit older and life just gets in the way.  Starting a career, family, etc.  I guess that one depends on your definition of kids though.
> 
> A lot of people at my current dojo started due to their kids.  They watched their kids train for a while, then started training themselves instead of sitting there and watching.  Most of them stayed after their kids stopped.
> 
> Others at our dojo trained as kids, left for various reasons, then came back.  Out of all the adults, there’s very few at my current dojo that don’t fit into one of the last two examples.  We’re pretty small - about 20 or so adults, so it’s not the best cross-section of karate society.



Retention IS the age-old problem with so many martial arts schools, for all the reasons you've explained. So the question remains: what would be a good way to get more committed students through the door so that a school can mitigate the issues listed? Granted, I understand that things like college and grad school (to say nothing of the military and police academy) are just gonna force someone's hand. Maybe it's time for a paradigm shift in the eyes of the public, since martial arts has been viewed as an extracurricular for a pretty long period of time. If I can shift that perspective to viewing martial arts as a lifestyle, then I'd probably get somewhere with it.


----------



## martialartsnerd

Andrew Green said:


> This is absolute crap.  I say this as a former kid and as someone that teaches a lot of kids.  What we do can have a very major and positive impact on children, more so then on adults in many ways.  This is like saying if you want to be a teacher only teach University, only teach kids if it's for the money.



Exactly. Martial arts is a lifestyle rather than a simple hobby. It's something I feel that gets lost in a lot of the marketing when they try to attract the masses. Something I wish to solve.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Retention IS the age-old problem with so many martial arts schools, for all the reasons you've explained. So the question remains: what would be a good way to get more committed students through the door so that a school can mitigate the issues listed? Granted, I understand that things like college and grad school (to say nothing of the military and police academy) are just gonna force someone's hand. Maybe it's time for a paradigm shift in the eyes of the public, since martial arts has been viewed as an extracurricular for a pretty long period of time. If I can shift that perspective to viewing martial arts as a lifestyle, then I'd probably get somewhere with it.


That's what happens to most of us who stay with it, regardless of the reason we train. It becomes part of our lifestyle, often a priority. First, it becomes a habit, and that's part of how we can increase retention: help folks build habits around their MA training. When that habit is broken (we get busy, get injured and skip classes, take vacations, etc.), right after the break, the chance of quitting goes up quite a bit.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> That's what happens to most of us who stay with it, regardless of the reason we train. It becomes part of our lifestyle, often a priority. First, it becomes a habit, and that's part of how we can increase retention: help folks build habits around their MA training. When that habit is broken (we get busy, get injured and skip classes, take vacations, etc.), right after the break, the chance of quitting goes up quite a bit.



Exactly. Which means, if I'm to market for instructors effectively, I need to start BEFORE their potential students even get to the doors.


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## pdg

The problem with marketing a lifestyle is that most people don't want a lifestyle change - at least not that they'll admit...

Well, at least not in the "MA way".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Exactly. Which means, if I'm to market for instructors effectively, I need to start BEFORE their potential students even get to the doors.


Agreed. There's only so much "marketing" that can be effective with students already inside. At that point, it's more "community building". That matters, but it's not the same as marketing, though there are some opportunities for overlap (having school get-togethers and encouraging guests, for instance).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> The problem with marketing a lifestyle is that most people don't want a lifestyle change - at least not that they'll admit...
> 
> Well, at least not in the "MA way".


This is one of those areas where blatant marketing isn't likely to be as effective. It's more in how the school/program is presented. I'm not sure how to do that (clearly, marketing isn't my strong suit).


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> This is one of those areas where blatant marketing isn't likely to be as effective. It's more in how the school/program is presented. I'm not sure how to do that (clearly, marketing isn't my strong suit).



I personally think that presenting it as "a way of life" really isn't the way to garner interest though. Well, not to gain longer term students.

A friend of mine is a personal trainer in a gym (the type with weights and bikes and stuff) and the marketing for that is always "change your way of life".

Sure, it attracts people who want to lose weight and look better.

Mainly around January...

The only way I can see that they stay financially solvent is by using 12 month contracts that are difficult to get out of (and even if you do that, there's always the stacked sales guy/girl ready with the "so you like being fat?" sort of question to guilt trip you into saying you'll be back).

Then after 12 months, when they can simply walk away from the contract, that new year resolution rears it's head again and they renew.

A woman I used to work with/near was paying £80/month for gym membership - she used the sauna twice in January and once in May, and renewed her membership.

If that's the sort of long term student you want, then great...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> I personally think that presenting it as "a way of life" really isn't the way to garner interest though. Well, not to gain longer term students.
> 
> A friend of mine is a personal trainer in a gym (the type with weights and bikes and stuff) and the marketing for that is always "change your way of life".
> 
> Sure, it attracts people who want to lose weight and look better.
> 
> Mainly around January...
> 
> The only way I can see that they stay financially solvent is by using 12 month contracts that are difficult to get out of (and even if you do that, there's always the stacked sales guy/girl ready with the "so you like being fat?" sort of question to guilt trip you into saying you'll be back).
> 
> Then after 12 months, when they can simply walk away from the contract, that new year resolution rears it's head again and they renew.
> 
> A woman I used to work with/near was paying £80/month for gym membership - she used the sauna twice in January and once in May, and renewed her membership.
> 
> If that's the sort of long term student you want, then great...


That's what I mean when I say blatant marketing isn't the way to go. I don't think it can be put forth as a way of life. Perhaps (I don't know) there are folks who would respond to community triggers - wording that shows people like to come and be part of something. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts from someone who has a background in marketing, but I'm not sure if we have anyone active on MT.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> I personally think that presenting it as "a way of life" really isn't the way to garner interest though. Well, not to gain longer term students.
> 
> A friend of mine is a personal trainer in a gym (the type with weights and bikes and stuff) and the marketing for that is always "change your way of life".
> 
> Sure, it attracts people who want to lose weight and look better.
> 
> Mainly around January...
> 
> The only way I can see that they stay financially solvent is by using 12 month contracts that are difficult to get out of (and even if you do that, there's always the stacked sales guy/girl ready with the "so you like being fat?" sort of question to guilt trip you into saying you'll be back).
> 
> Then after 12 months, when they can simply walk away from the contract, that new year resolution rears it's head again and they renew.
> 
> A woman I used to work with/near was paying £80/month for gym membership - she used the sauna twice in January and once in May, and renewed her membership.
> 
> If that's the sort of long term student you want, then great...



Not at all, really. Marketing strategy tends to be VERY closely linked with pricing strategy, since marketing done right drives up demand. But when demand is high and supply is low (given there's only one of THAT TEACHER vs. THIS TEACHER or THAT OTHER TEACHER), then there's either gonna be a price hike or the teacher desperately tries to find a way to supply his training to all available. Good marketing and pricing is supposed to filter out unqualified leads (people looking for a freebie or people who don't plan to prioritize martial arts, anyway). Having learned a little bit from my high-ticket sales teacher, the idea I have in mind is to apply a high-ticket business model (complete with lower-tier, lower-priced offers) to supply the masses while taking only the most committed into personal and/or group instruction.

Definitely gonna be hurdles, and definitely gonna be things I can't seem to see, but I'll figure them out, and I've got my slowly-growing network to refer back to. I'll make this work for the sake of the martial arts instructors that earned their time on the global stage but can't seem to take it as well as for those who deserve to learn good martial arts while taking power away from the McDojos and Bullshido instructors.


----------



## JR 137

The whole selling it as a “way of life” gives me images of a cult when it comes to MA.  There’s a bunch of BS about the arts and in the arts.  Think Hollywood’s version of Shaolin monks, samurai, etc.  I’m not a marketing guy at all, but I don’t think the “martial artist way of life” will conjure up similar images.  I don’t think that’s what people are really after.  And I don’t think the people who respond to that stuff are the people who a lot of dojo owners are after either.

While we’re on the subject of marketing...
Can dojos leave the pseudo Asian cultural stuff behind?  I’m not talking about etiquette and terminology, I’m talking about cheesey 80s dragons, tigers, yin yangs, motifs, etc.  If you’re Asian and this is actually how you’d decorate your studio back home, that’s one thing.  If you’re doing it to look cool, I don’t know what to tell you other than please stop.  The 80s are over.  If you’re not Chinese and your studio looks like a Chinese take-out restaurant, there’s just something not right.  If you’re not Japanese and you designed your school’s logos and the like to be “Japanese looking” you really need to rethink it.

If your certificates and the rest of your dojo look like this, it’s pretty hard to take you seriously 





Sorry, I needed to get that off my chest.


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> Not at all, really. Marketing strategy tends to be VERY closely linked with pricing strategy, since marketing done right drives up demand. But when demand is high and supply is low (given there's only one of THAT TEACHER vs. THIS TEACHER or THAT OTHER TEACHER), then there's either gonna be a price hike or the teacher desperately tries to find a way to supply his training to all available. Good marketing and pricing is supposed to filter out unqualified leads (people looking for a freebie or people who don't plan to prioritize martial arts, anyway). Having learned a little bit from my high-ticket sales teacher, the idea I have in mind is to apply a high-ticket business model (complete with lower-tier, lower-priced offers) to supply the masses while taking only the most committed into personal and/or group instruction.
> 
> Definitely gonna be hurdles, and definitely gonna be things I can't seem to see, but I'll figure them out, and I've got my slowly-growing network to refer back to. I'll make this work for the sake of the martial arts instructors that earned their time on the global stage but can't seem to take it as well as for those who deserve to learn good martial arts while taking power away from the McDojos and Bullshido instructors.



It's entirely possible I'm misinterpreting your intention here...

To me, it looks like the plan is to have an 'entry level' cheap plan for the pure hobbyist, with almost a sliding scale of increasing cost (and "special treatment") for those who are deemed more committed.

Maybe I'm odd, but I consider myself one of the most committed to learning and personal developing in my club.

What I don't have is an over abundance of cash.

If I was presented with the option of carrying on with a slow paced hobbyist class of watered down training or a better class for extra money I know what I'd choose.

I'd walk.

The whole premise screams "black belt club" in the worst way.


----------



## JR 137

And don’t walk around the dojo dressed like this, unless you’re Asian and it’s actually an authentic outfit you’d wear back home...


 
I’ve seen it done.  I wish I was kidding.


----------



## pdg

JR 137 said:


> And don’t walk around the dojo dressed like this, unless you’re Asian and it’s actually an authentic outfit you’d wear back home...
> View attachment 21553
> I’ve seen it done.  I wish I was kidding.



That looks much like my Wednesday evening house attire...


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> It's entirely possible I'm misinterpreting your intention here...
> 
> To me, it looks like the plan is to have an 'entry level' cheap plan for the pure hobbyist, with almost a sliding scale of increasing cost (and "special treatment") for those who are deemed more committed.
> 
> Maybe I'm odd, but I consider myself one of the most committed to learning and personal developing in my club.
> 
> What I don't have is an over abundance of cash.
> 
> If I was presented with the option of carrying on with a slow paced hobbyist class of watered down training or a better class for extra money I know what I'd choose.
> 
> I'd walk.
> 
> The whole premise screams "black belt club" in the worst way.



The lower-tier offers wouldn't be watered down, they just wouldn't have the personal touches of the instructor themselves. If there's any one thing I DON'T want to do, it's water down any of the martial arts. As Bruce Lee wrote the Tao of JKD, I feel that other masters could do similar as a low-cost offering. It'd be something like a free book -> online training modules -> group classes -> personal training. It's entirely possible for those without the funds for personal training to achieve higher ranks. They just wouldn't be able to personally train with the teacher for lack of funding. It's a similar ideology behind the Gracies' Gracie Academy.


----------



## martialartsnerd

JR 137 said:


> The whole selling it as a “way of life” gives me images of a cult when it comes to MA.  There’s a bunch of BS about the arts and in the arts.  Think Hollywood’s version of Shaolin monks, samurai, etc.  I’m not a marketing guy at all, but I don’t think the “martial artist way of life” will conjure up similar images.  I don’t think that’s what people are really after.  And I don’t think the people who respond to that stuff are the people who a lot of dojo owners are after either.
> 
> While we’re on the subject of marketing...
> Can dojos leave the pseudo Asian cultural stuff behind?  I’m not talking about etiquette and terminology, I’m talking about cheesey 80s dragons, tigers, yin yangs, motifs, etc.  If you’re Asian and this is actually how you’d decorate your studio back home, that’s one thing.  If you’re doing it to look cool, I don’t know what to tell you other than please stop.  The 80s are over.  If you’re not Chinese and your studio looks like a Chinese take-out restaurant, there’s just something not right.  If you’re not Japanese and you designed your school’s logos and the like to be “Japanese looking” you really need to rethink it.
> 
> If your certificates and the rest of your dojo look like this, it’s pretty hard to take you seriously
> View attachment 21552
> 
> Sorry, I needed to get that off my chest.



Again, entirely possible that there's gaps in my knowledge to fill, and you've proven that there are. But at the same time, it's for that reason that I'm hell-bent on this, because martial arts, well, beyond self-defense and sport, anyway, has a philosophical and intellectual side to it that people would benefit from for sure. That's what I want to change with public perception. Also, yes, the pseudo-Asian cultural stuff does have to be left behind. Putting pics of the historical lineage of the style you practice is one thing. Crap-tier decorations are another.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> That's something I've noticed with the instructors I know personally who are in the garage-days phase. I would certainly love to figure out how to help them market to the older crowds so that they can give their attention there. Out of the three instructors I've gotten to know, one of them watered down his Taekwondo so as to attract a following of kids, and I also feel that this is because of how it's attracting uninformed consumers, another problem I want to solve with the marketing that I'm learning.


The person watering down his program is hurting all MA. I do not understand this. Especially in TKD which seems to be the initiator of kids classes. It doesn't matter how good your marketing is if your quality is poor. It will catch up with you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> The whole selling it as a “way of life” gives me images of a cult when it comes to MA.  There’s a bunch of BS about the arts and in the arts.  Think Hollywood’s version of Shaolin monks, samurai, etc.  I’m not a marketing guy at all, but I don’t think the “martial artist way of life” will conjure up similar images.  I don’t think that’s what people are really after.  And I don’t think the people who respond to that stuff are the people who a lot of dojo owners are after either.
> 
> While we’re on the subject of marketing...
> Can dojos leave the pseudo Asian cultural stuff behind?  I’m not talking about etiquette and terminology, I’m talking about cheesey 80s dragons, tigers, yin yangs, motifs, etc.  If you’re Asian and this is actually how you’d decorate your studio back home, that’s one thing.  If you’re doing it to look cool, I don’t know what to tell you other than please stop.  The 80s are over.  If you’re not Chinese and your studio looks like a Chinese take-out restaurant, there’s just something not right.  If you’re not Japanese and you designed your school’s logos and the like to be “Japanese looking” you really need to rethink it.
> 
> If your certificates and the rest of your dojo look like this, it’s pretty hard to take you seriously
> View attachment 21552
> 
> Sorry, I needed to get that off my chest.


There's definitely a line there somewhere that is best not to cross, but it's hard to identify it when it comes to the cultural hold-overs. Some of the cultural hold-overs feel "normal" to those who are used to them - just start with the traditional uniforms. I feel better training in a gi than anything else, just because it's what I've always trained in. I often wear hakama which serve very little functional purpose, but I prefer wearing one, and that's definitely near (and sometimes over) that line for other folks. I know some folks who train in kimono (usually yukata), and that feels over the line to me. Is it over the line to decorate your dojo like the one you trained in, because that's what feels like a training space to you? Carry that forward (someone trains in Japan, comes to the US and decorates their school similarly) a few generations, and you get someone who's not Japanese, never trained in Japan, but still has some distinctively (or, as often as not, erroneously) Japanese decorations.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> It's entirely possible I'm misinterpreting your intention here...
> 
> To me, it looks like the plan is to have an 'entry level' cheap plan for the pure hobbyist, with almost a sliding scale of increasing cost (and "special treatment") for those who are deemed more committed.
> 
> Maybe I'm odd, but I consider myself one of the most committed to learning and personal developing in my club.
> 
> What I don't have is an over abundance of cash.
> 
> If I was presented with the option of carrying on with a slow paced hobbyist class of watered down training or a better class for extra money I know what I'd choose.
> 
> I'd walk.
> 
> The whole premise screams "black belt club" in the worst way.


What I know of the idea of high-price offerings (not uncommon among speakers to discuss this stuff) is that you have a low-price offering that meets the needs of a larger group. Then, you offer a lot of value in a higher-price offering to those who are interested in it. It'd be like that BB club, but if the BB club actually offered a lot of value. For speakers who teach, this often is something like a low-cost pre-produced package of information, templates, and recordings. That's paired with live coaching, which is (of course) more expensive, but offers a lot more value for the right folks. I'm not sure there's a good analogy in MA, but it's an interesting concept and worth having someone dig into to see if they can work something out that works well for students and instructors.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> The lower-tier offers wouldn't be watered down, they just wouldn't have the personal touches of the instructor themselves. If there's any one thing I DON'T want to do, it's water down any of the martial arts. As Bruce Lee wrote the Tao of JKD, I feel that other masters could do similar as a low-cost offering. It'd be something like a free book -> online training modules -> group classes -> personal training. It's entirely possible for those without the funds for personal training to achieve higher ranks. They just wouldn't be able to personally train with the teacher for lack of funding. It's a similar ideology behind the Gracies' Gracie Academy.


In a larger setting, it could even be the difference between classes led by the associate instructors, versus those routinely led by the chief instructor.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> The person watering down his program is hurting all MA. I do not understand this. Especially in TKD which seems to be the initiator of kids classes. It doesn't matter how good your marketing is if your quality is poor. It will catch up with you.


I don't necessarily agree that a person watering down what they offer is hurting all of MA. It's possible, but it seems unlikely, unless they (and their poor results) become widely known and recognized as "normal" for MA. In fact, if the people buying from them really like the product (kids having fun, parents get kids who are being active and are out of their hair a few hours a week, etc.), then I'm not sure they're hurting anyone.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> Seems like a bad run-in with a high-ticket marketing agency of sorts. Although some posts here have demonstrated a need for what I do, given your angle, a marketing agency/consultant/etc. would just be an out-and-out bad fit. Understandable, given your experience. Mind telling me more about this bunch you ran into so that I can get a good feel for the pros and cons of what they were up to?


I see both people with experience and understandably new employees and owners who get overwhelmed and the blank page goes up. Instead of stepping back and looking at the big picture needs, they get fixated on an issue(s) of low value. For me, I see it most in VLS applications where there are a lot of moving parts. I have even see consulting engineers have consulting engineers mostly because of trust issues by the owner/end user.
In the MA startup scenario, I do think most of the failures come form instructors who are really good at their craft and think that is good enough because of stories like the Gracies. Like many of that era, it was the golden age of Martial Arts awareness and extremely popular for many reasons. This made school startups much easier. The simple fact is, if you do not start your school as a business if will fail. Of course, you must have an excellent service. Remember, it is a service, not a consumable product. You are providing a service, ala, a servant. You better have the heart for it.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> There's definitely a line there somewhere that is best not to cross, but it's hard to identify it when it comes to the cultural hold-overs. Some of the cultural hold-overs feel "normal" to those who are used to them - just start with the traditional uniforms. I feel better training in a gi than anything else, just because it's what I've always trained in. I often wear hakama which serve very little functional purpose, but I prefer wearing one, and that's definitely near (and sometimes over) that line for other folks. I know some folks who train in kimono (usually yukata), and that feels over the line to me. Is it over the line to decorate your dojo like the one you trained in, because that's what feels like a training space to you? Carry that forward (someone trains in Japan, comes to the US and decorates their school similarly) a few generations, and you get someone who's not Japanese, never trained in Japan, but still has some distinctively (or, as often as not, erroneously) Japanese decorations.


There’s always a line.  I’ve seen some pretty stupid stuff in person and in videos/pictures that left that line a marathon distance away.

My teacher has some Japanese stuff around the dojo, and a collection of calligraphy that keeps growing.  It was all given to him by his teacher (Tadashi Nakamura), so it’s all good.

There was a guy in my area briefly.  He claimed to teach some sort of Chinese kempo/Japanese jujitsu/and Filipino knife art blend.  No mats, but he had this thick shag carpeting.  Murals of dragons, tigers, those lamp looking things with the tassels hanging off them all over the place, a few bonsai trees, incense, and Asian flute music playing in the background.  He walked around in a costume kimono (I’ve seen real ones) holding a bo for some reason unbeknownst to me.  Not to sound the wrong way, but he wasn’t remotely Asian.  No clue what his students were doing, but even with zero MA experience at the time, I can tell you it wasn’t good at all.  He wasn’t around for very long.  I still can’t drive by where he was without a flashback.  Since then that place has been a tanning hut, a floral shop, and now a beef jerky store in the strip mall

That was the worst example by far, but I’ve seen elements of it in a lot of places.  I’m pretty sure the majority of potential students don’t want that nonsense.  Where applicable - wear a gi or similar uniform, put up your school’s kanji, a picture of your teacher or similar, perhaps something you bought or was given to you from the actual area your art comes from, and be done with it.  Mr. Miyagi’s house and yard were nice.  Don’t try to recreate it.  

Last thing - I saw a guy online wearing Daniel-san’s headband and seemingly taking himself seriously.  The YouTube comments said it all.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> There’s always a line.  I’ve seen some pretty stupid stuff in person and in videos/pictures that left that line a marathon distance away.
> 
> My teacher has some Japanese stuff around the dojo, and a collection of calligraphy that keeps growing.  It was all given to him by his teacher (Tadashi Nakamura), so it’s all good.
> 
> There was a guy in my area briefly.  He claimed to teach some sort of Chinese kempo/Japanese jujitsu/and Filipino knife art blend.  No mats, but he had this thick shag carpeting.  Murals of dragons, tigers, those lamp looking things with the tassels hanging off them all over the place, a few bonsai trees, incense, and Asian flute music playing in the background.  He walked around in a costume kimono (I’ve seen real ones) holding a bo for some reason unbeknownst to me.  Not to sound the wrong way, but he wasn’t remotely Asian.  No clue what his students were doing, but even with zero MA experience at the time, I can tell you it wasn’t good at all.  He wasn’t around for very long.  I still can’t drive by where he was without a flashback.  Since then that place has been a tanning hut, a floral shop, and now a beef jerky store in the strip mall
> 
> That was the worst example by far, but I’ve seen elements of it in a lot of places.  I’m pretty sure the majority of potential students don’t want that nonsense.  Where applicable - wear a gi or similar uniform, put up your school’s kanji, a picture of your teacher or similar, perhaps something you bought or was given to you from the actual area your art comes from, and be done with it.  Mr. Miyagi’s house and yard were nice.  Don’t try to recreate it.
> 
> Last thing - I saw a guy online wearing Daniel-san’s headband and seemingly taking himself seriously.  The YouTube comments said it all.


Yeah, there are definitely those who clearly have crossed that line. The vagueness of the line is probably best observed in a lot of Aikido dojos. It's my experience that a lot of them go for a Japanese theme, probably copied in part from what they've seen either at some Japanese Aikido dojo, or from someone who did the copying. There's a pretty consistent feel among most Aikido dojos. There's a significant variation within their "norm" - which probably ranges from what you describe, with the bits of Kanji and such, to something that looks like it's supposed to be in Japan, complete with "dojo sandals" at the door for all to use to get to the mat. But if you start from the "average" of that range, you'll find most of the schools cluster around that average, with a few outliers at each end - some that have almost no Japanese holdovers, and others that might have crossed that line.


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> What I know of the idea of high-price offerings (not uncommon among speakers to discuss this stuff) is that you have a low-price offering that meets the needs of a larger group. Then, you offer a lot of value in a higher-price offering to those who are interested in it. It'd be like that BB club, but if the BB club actually offered a lot of value. For speakers who teach, this often is something like a low-cost pre-produced package of information, templates, and recordings. That's paired with live coaching, which is (of course) more expensive, but offers a lot more value for the right folks. I'm not sure there's a good analogy in MA, but it's an interesting concept and worth having someone dig into to see if they can work something out that works well for students and instructors.





gpseymour said:


> In a larger setting, it could even be the difference between classes led by the associate instructors, versus those routinely led by the chief instructor.



I'm not discounting how it _could_ work, but there's a bit of a problem and the analogy doesn't translate well.

A company can justify the one on one (or one on group) training because it adds value and can increase revenue - that's fine.

The issue is that the selection of "the right people" in an MA setting comes down to the size of their wallet.

Is an instructor really going to turn down someone who is not all that good, but is willing to pay a 200% (say) premium for the special classes?

What about the people who are vastly more capable but vastly less wealthy?

The first group would get the advantageous training and "special" coaching and not necessarily get that much better.

The second group would get bundled in with the kids who don't want to be there and the adults who just want a gentle social workout.

I'd get bundled in the second group, because with a couple of kids, a wife and a house to support there's a very limited budget for extra curricular activities for me.

I think a lot of people would be in the same boat tbh.

Then of course the first group would get all uppity if they failed a test (or were refused a test) because they're paying extra...

Unless it's the same price but invitation only for advanced classes (for one example) I really can't see it working out well for reputations or MA as a whole.


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> It'd be something like a free book -> online training modules -> group classes -> personal training. It's entirely possible for those without the funds for personal training to achieve higher ranks. They just wouldn't be able to personally train with the teacher



I just remembered this bit.

To put it bluntly, that's a crap idea.

So the person who reads the book can attain the same rank as someone who does 8 hours a week in class?

Or the person who watches the videos can?


Yeah right - then you'd be complaining about people holding undeserved and untested rank.

It's a balls idea.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> I'm not discounting how it _could_ work, but there's a bit of a problem and the analogy doesn't translate well.
> 
> A company can justify the one on one (or one on group) training because it adds value and can increase revenue - that's fine.
> 
> The issue is that the selection of "the right people" in an MA setting comes down to the size of their wallet.
> 
> Is an instructor really going to turn down someone who is not all that good, but is willing to pay a 200% (say) premium for the special classes?
> 
> What about the people who are vastly more capable but vastly less wealthy?
> 
> The first group would get the advantageous training and "special" coaching and not necessarily get that much better.
> 
> The second group would get bundled in with the kids who don't want to be there and the adults who just want a gentle social workout.
> 
> I'd get bundled in the second group, because with a couple of kids, a wife and a house to support there's a very limited budget for extra curricular activities for me.
> 
> I think a lot of people would be in the same boat tbh.
> 
> Then of course the first group would get all uppity if they failed a test (or were refused a test) because they're paying extra...
> 
> Unless it's the same price but invitation only for advanced classes (for one example) I really can't see it working out well for reputations or MA as a whole.





pdg said:


> I'm not discounting how it _could_ work, but there's a bit of a problem and the analogy doesn't translate well.
> 
> A company can justify the one on one (or one on group) training because it adds value and can increase revenue - that's fine.
> 
> The issue is that the selection of "the right people" in an MA setting comes down to the size of their wallet.
> 
> Is an instructor really going to turn down someone who is not all that good, but is willing to pay a 200% (say) premium for the special classes?
> 
> What about the people who are vastly more capable but vastly less wealthy?
> 
> The first group would get the advantageous training and "special" coaching and not necessarily get that much better.
> 
> The second group would get bundled in with the kids who don't want to be there and the adults who just want a gentle social workout.
> 
> I'd get bundled in the second group, because with a couple of kids, a wife and a house to support there's a very limited budget for extra curricular activities for me.
> 
> I think a lot of people would be in the same boat tbh.
> 
> Then of course the first group would get all uppity if they failed a test (or were refused a test) because they're paying extra...
> 
> Unless it's the same price but invitation only for advanced classes (for one example) I really can't see it working out well for reputations or MA as a whole.


In concept, it's meant to work the other way around, for the most part. A coach doesn't usually have to turn down "wrong clients" - they market in a way that attracts the right ones to their best offerings. The "right people" are simply the ones who see the value and are (therefore) willing to pay the higher price...and have the money to do so. As you say, the analogy isn't perfect here, but I'm curious to see where the OP takes it as they're thinking it through more. It might not work in nearly the same way, but it's an interesting place to start. At worst, it'll lead nowhere and the OP (and anyone who follows the experiment) will learn something. At best (realistically) it might give a better way to draw the kinds of folks each instructor likes to work with and help some find a way to make a bit more money by providing more value.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> I just remembered this bit.
> 
> To put it bluntly, that's a crap idea.
> 
> So the person who reads the book can attain the same rank as someone who does 8 hours a week in class?
> 
> Or the person who watches the videos can?
> 
> 
> Yeah right - then you'd be complaining about people holding undeserved and untested rank.
> 
> It's a balls idea.


It looks to me like he's saying group classes is the alternate route to grading, not the books and videos. The way I read the concept is not to reduce what's already offered, but to find a way to offer more value to those who can afford to pay more and want more. A lot of instructors already do this, though more in theory than in fact: private lessons.


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> The "right people" are simply the ones who see the value and are (therefore) willing to pay the higher price...and have the money to do so.



I can see the value of training with the lead instructor - I do so at least weekly.

But apparently I'm an unsuitable candidate for the model being discussed because I don't fulfill the second criteria.

It just smacks of exclusivity through expense, and quite honestly we all know the type of client that attracts...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> I can see the value of training with the lead instructor - I do so at least weekly.
> 
> But apparently I'm an unsuitable candidate for the model being discussed because I don't fulfill the second criteria.
> 
> It just smacks of exclusivity through expense, and quite honestly we all know the type of client that attracts...


Exclusivity through expense is part of business. If a restaurant has 1,000 people showing up for dinner, and can seat 100, they aren't charging what they could, and are cheating themselves. They could serve themselves (and their customers) better by either raising prices or getting a bigger place where they can serve more. The latter is hard to do. In principle, a rightly priced product or service only draws slightly more demand than the supply. You can't serve everyone, so you figure out how to serve who you want to serve. Some folks have a mission to reach folks who can't afford much, so they price to suit those folks (and I know some folks who willingly lose money to do this). Others need to make enough money to keep the program open, or they can't serve anyone. Again, the idea isn't to push folks out of what they get now, but to figure out how to both offer something lower-cost to reach a wider audience (which a lot of folks do with books, videos, seminars, etc.) and how to offer something more to those willing and able to pay more for it.

Mind you, this is one model. It won't fit every instructor, by a long shot, and that's a good thing. I wouldn't be one of the high-paying clients, either. Only for a brief period of my career did I have enough disposable income for that sort of thing.


----------



## Jaeimseu

pdg said:


> I can see the value of training with the lead instructor - I do so at least weekly.
> 
> But apparently I'm an unsuitable candidate for the model being discussed because I don't fulfill the second criteria.
> 
> It just smacks of exclusivity through expense, and quite honestly we all know the type of client that attracts...



I don’t know about that. It’s all perceived value. If a client thinks the service is more valuable than the cost, they’ll find the money. People buy stuff all the time that they don’t need and “can’t afford.” If the perceived value is high enough, people will re-prioritize their spending in most, though not necessarily all, cases. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andrew Green

martialartsnerd said:


> Exactly. Martial arts is a lifestyle rather than a simple hobby. It's something I feel that gets lost in a lot of the marketing when they try to attract the masses. Something I wish to solve.



No, it's a lifestyle for me, and a handful of others.  For most it's a fun hobby.  If you want to market only to "lifestyle" sorts of practitioners you'll likely have a empty school.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> I don't necessarily agree that a person watering down what they offer is hurting all of MA. It's possible, but it seems unlikely, unless they (and their poor results) become widely known and recognized as "normal" for MA. In fact, if the people buying from them really like the product (kids having fun, parents get kids who are being active and are out of their hair a few hours a week, etc.), then I'm not sure they're hurting anyone.


The "perception is reality" diatribe. Maybe there has been enough saturation that it isn't as apparent as it was in years past but the reputation, bad or otherwise, usually made it to our school in one way or another. The preceded reputation of MA was one of my bigger battles when I introduced our public school program. I suppose if, as an owner/instructor you are able to isolate yourself it is true but aren't you missing out on a lot? Honestly, I do not even know how to water down my MA or why I would want to. We are to lift up, not water down. IMHO


----------



## martialartsnerd

Andrew Green said:


> No, it's a lifestyle for me, and a handful of others.  For most it's a fun hobby.  If you want to market only to "lifestyle" sorts of practitioners you'll likely have a empty school.



That's true as of this moment. Trying to change that is my mission in life, but right now, I'm starting from scratch, with a few connections and a thorough lack of sanity. In that case, how would I alter the public's perception of martial arts AND drum up qualified leads for instructors simultaneously so that the instructors get the following they deserve and the public quits treating the martial arts like some neat extracurricular to tack on to a transcript? Or would a better idea be, as gpseymour and I discussed privately, to emphasize community building instead?


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> In principle, a rightly priced product or service only draws slightly more demand than the supply.



This bit first...

Do you know any MA school - anywhere - that is full, let alone has demand enough to outstrip supply?



gpseymour said:


> Exclusivity through expense is part of business. If a restaurant has 1,000 people showing up for dinner, and can seat 100, they aren't charging what they could, and are cheating themselves. They could serve themselves (and their customers) better by either raising prices or getting a bigger place where they can serve more. The latter is hard to do.



This is really where the analogy absolutely falls flat.

You know what places get full? Good and well priced restaurants, doctors, cinemas - places where you either need to go or where you can enjoy yourself with no effort.

You know what places never get full? Gyms, tennis clubs, MA schools...

The guy on here who teaches in a YMCA hosted school (embarrassingly, I can't remember his name) - I never remember him saying it gets too busy to run. They charge a nominal fee ($30-40 / month iirc) and I recall him mentioning discounts for the financially challenged.

So, even running as an effectively free service, demand doesn't outstrip supply.

I bet he could give away milk and cookies and still not be over subscribed.



I honestly think you could charge whatever you want (from 0 to whatever) and still have around the same size client base. The fee would in no way determine the 'quality' of student.



Edit: the fee wouldn't determine the quality of the instructor either btw, jus' sayin'


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> In that case, how would I alter the public's perception of martial arts AND drum up qualified leads for instructors simultaneously so that the instructors get the following they deserve and the public quits treating the martial arts like some neat extracurricular to tack on to a transcript?



Go back a couple of hundred years to the feudal far east - otherwise I don't think you can.

For the overwhelmingly vast majority of the population it's not a life nowadays where there is a dire need for fighting ability.

Because there's no _need_ for it, it's a hobby.

I consider my MA a way of life, but not from a fighting standpoint.

In much the same way, my uncle could be construed to consider going fishing a way of life, but he doesn't need to hunt carp to avoid starving to death.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> Go back a couple of hundred years to the feudal far east - otherwise I don't think you can.
> 
> For the overwhelmingly vast majority of the population it's not a life nowadays where there is a dire need for fighting ability.
> 
> Because there's no _need_ for it, it's a hobby.
> 
> I consider my MA a way of life, but not from a fighting standpoint.
> 
> In much the same way, my uncle could be construed to consider going fishing a way of life, but he doesn't need to hunt carp to avoid starving to death.



Challenge accepted. Guess that's what I need to figure out. It's like gpseymour and I discussed privately, community building. With a lot of 80/20 behind it. Alright, I'm getting a feel for this chaos.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> It looks to me like he's saying group classes is the alternate route to grading, not the books and videos. The way I read the concept is not to reduce what's already offered, but to find a way to offer more value to those who can afford to pay more and want more. A lot of instructors already do this, though more in theory than in fact: private lessons.



Yeah, that's about right. After our discussion, it also kinda seems like the lower steps of the value ladder aren't emphasized enough to attract, and there's all the stuff you mentioned in our call, which boils down to money, time, and consistency. This is an interesting problem to wrap my head around.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> The "perception is reality" diatribe. Maybe there has been enough saturation that it isn't as apparent as it was in years past but the reputation, bad or otherwise, usually made it to our school in one way or another. The preceded reputation of MA was one of my bigger battles when I introduced our public school program. I suppose if, as an owner/instructor you are able to isolate yourself it is true but aren't you missing out on a lot? Honestly, I do not even know how to water down my MA or why I would want to. We are to lift up, not water down. IMHO


In the context given, "watered down" I think meant making it easier and less "fighty". That's what some folks want, so I don't think that's antithetical to "lifting up". Is the current reputation worse for MA consumers than the semi-mystical reputation MA tended toward in the 70's and 80's? I doubt it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> This bit first...
> 
> Do you know any MA school - anywhere - that is full, let alone has demand enough to outstrip supply?


Very few, but I have run into 2 (maybe 3) that had waiting lists. That it's not more common suggests there's a mismatch - it's entirely possible we simply have more supply than demand, in general. A nice situation for us as consumers, but not for us as instructors.



> This is really where the analogy absolutely falls flat.
> 
> You know what places get full? Good and well priced restaurants, doctors, cinemas - places where you either need to go or where you can enjoy yourself with no effort.
> 
> You know what places never get full? Gyms, tennis clubs, MA schools...
> 
> The guy on here who teaches in a YMCA hosted school (embarrassingly, I can't remember his name) - I never remember him saying it gets too busy to run. They charge a nominal fee ($30-40 / month iirc) and I recall him mentioning discounts for the financially challenged.
> 
> So, even running as an effectively free service, demand doesn't outstrip supply.
> 
> I bet he could give away milk and cookies and still not be over subscribed.


Oddly, the largest schools I've run into are among the more expensive (adjusted for area). Free and near-free programs tend to struggle more. Whether price is part of the cause of that difference or not, I can't really say.



> I honestly think you could charge whatever you want (from 0 to whatever) and still have around the same size client base. The fee would in no way determine the 'quality' of student.


Agreed, mostly (except that price does change how many people can afford something, so changes the potential client base). The fee is not to identify a specific quality (other than the willingness and ability to pay that fee) - that's the purpose of marketing. Marketing, done well, allows consumers to properly self-select into or out of a product or service offering. That's what the OP was saying earlier about marketing creating "filters". When marketing is flawed, one of two things happens in unhealthy proportions: the wrong people show up to check things out (and aren't really interested after they look), or the people who would be interested can't figure out the value for themselves and don't show up to check things out. The most "broken" marketing creates both of those situations.


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> Oddly, the largest schools I've run into are among the more expensive (adjusted for area). Free and near-free programs tend to struggle more. Whether price is part of the cause of that difference or not, I can't really say.



I can see that actually - the school we discussed recently is expensive and nationwide (and of dubious quality...)

To draw another incomplete parallel - I was trying to get rid of a table a while back, advertised it as free to collector. Nothing for a week.

Readvertised it for £50, it was sold within an hour and I had more than 5 people waiting in line if the sale fell through...

That's not the only item I've had that happen with either.

So, while I get the whole picture I really think it needs to be carefully balanced as far as price and availability goes.



As to the public perception of MA aspect of this, I personally think that price should be the least important area of focus.

Because it really is a leisure activity these days you're not going to elevate it's status with a clever pricing scheme.


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> Very few, but I have run into 2 (maybe 3) that had waiting lists. That it's not more common suggests there's a mismatch - it's entirely possible we simply have more supply than demand, in general. A nice situation for us as consumers, but not for us as instructors.



There's absolutely more supply than demand.

The whole thing before about "it's all karate to the public" - I may slightly disagree with that sentiment, but let's say it's true.

A Google Search for "martial arts {my town} yields over a dozen results, and it's not a big town. Expand 10 miles (which takes in 2 more smaller towns and a few large villages) and you get 30+.

Search for "tennis {my town}" and you get 3. Swimming, 2. Gym, 8.

As I'm putting MA in the leisure category, it shows there is a large supply with much choice.



Edit: I forgot the entire point of this post!

This shows something strange.

Tennis is on TV (the non subscription free to air channels) for every major tournament.

Swimming gets loads of TV coverage during the Olympics and the like.

Gym membership is advertised everywhere around here - local radio, billboards, flyers in the post.

To see MA on (free) TV you need to wait for the 5 minute highlights of the Olympics - or resort to YouTube.

The only advertising for MA I see is a couple of tiny adverts in the "active kids" mini magazine the school sends out, and we've had 2 flyers handed out by our kid's school (one of which I supplied to the school for 'my' club).

So, as good as zero advertising yet enough demand to keep that many clubs operating? Would extra advertising change that or is it really that MA is an activity that people actually look for if they have an interest?


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> Challenge accepted. Guess that's what I need to figure out. It's like gpseymour and I discussed privately, community building. With a lot of 80/20 behind it. Alright, I'm getting a feel for this chaos.



If you really want to change public perception I think you have an awfully long road ahead of you, and it's all uphill...


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> In the context given, "watered down" I think meant making it easier and less "fighty". That's what some folks want, so I don't think that's antithetical to "lifting up". Is the current reputation worse for MA consumers than the semi-mystical reputation MA tended toward in the 70's and 80's? I doubt it.


I agree it is a good thing to separate the mysticism from MA, a very good thing. And the reputation of the 70's & 80's where you had to register your deadly hands, absolutely. So, if you make it "easier and less fighty", shouldn't that also make the curriculum longer to achieve the same goal? I have a hard time reconciling easier not being watered down.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> That's true as of this moment. Trying to change that is my mission in life, but right now, I'm starting from scratch, with a few connections and a thorough lack of sanity. In that case, how would I alter the public's perception of martial arts AND drum up qualified leads for instructors simultaneously so that the instructors get the following they deserve and the public quits treating the martial arts like some neat extracurricular to tack on to a transcript? Or would a better idea be, as gpseymour and I discussed privately, to emphasize community building instead?


It sounds a lot like you are trying to create some kind of melting pot of all popular MA, gym, etc.. into one homogenized thing and market it with trained instructors to create this "lifestyle" product. Isn't the YMCA already doing that?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> I can see that actually - the school we discussed recently is expensive and nationwide (and of dubious quality...)
> 
> To draw another incomplete parallel - I was trying to get rid of a table a while back, advertised it as free to collector. Nothing for a week.
> 
> Readvertised it for £50, it was sold within an hour and I had more than 5 people waiting in line if the sale fell through...
> 
> That's not the only item I've had that happen with either.
> 
> So, while I get the whole picture I really think it needs to be carefully balanced as far as price and availability goes.
> 
> 
> 
> As to the public perception of MA aspect of this, I personally think that price should be the least important area of focus.
> 
> Because it really is a leisure activity these days you're not going to elevate it's status with a clever pricing scheme.


I agree with that, for the most part. I don't think the kinds of models that work for coaching (where I've seen this) translate well to MA. But I'm interested in seeing where this takes the OP. A lot of times, starting from a flawed model is a good way to get out of a thinking rut. I haven't seen a lot of change in how schools are run over the last 30 years, and maybe it's time for some changes. Clever pricing might not help, but maybe there's something else we can get out of this that'll help us provide a more valued service/product.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> There's absolutely more supply than demand.
> 
> The whole thing before about "it's all karate to the public" - I may slightly disagree with that sentiment, but let's say it's true.
> 
> A Google Search for "martial arts {my town} yields over a dozen results, and it's not a big town. Expand 10 miles (which takes in 2 more smaller towns and a few large villages) and you get 30+.
> 
> Search for "tennis {my town}" and you get 3. Swimming, 2. Gym, 8.
> 
> As I'm putting MA in the leisure category, it shows there is a large supply with much choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I forgot the entire point of this post!
> 
> This shows something strange.
> 
> Tennis is on TV (the non subscription free to air channels) for every major tournament.
> 
> Swimming gets loads of TV coverage during the Olympics and the like.
> 
> Gym membership is advertised everywhere around here - local radio, billboards, flyers in the post.
> 
> To see MA on (free) TV you need to wait for the 5 minute highlights of the Olympics - or resort to YouTube.
> 
> The only advertising for MA I see is a couple of tiny adverts in the "active kids" mini magazine the school sends out, and we've had 2 flyers handed out by our kid's school (one of which I supplied to the school for 'my' club).
> 
> So, as good as zero advertising yet enough demand to keep that many clubs operating? Would extra advertising change that or is it really that MA is an activity that people actually look for if they have an interest?


I don't know that I'd equate media coverage with advertising. Most big schools have demo teams - demos are nothing but advertising by live appearance. Smaller schools are less likely to have a dedicated team, but most still do demos. Most dedicated spaces have signs, and most are on some carefully chosen traffic-way. Nearly every school has a website, and probably half also have a Facebook page. Many have Youtube channels. Some buy advertising space in small publications (local papers, coffee shop readers, etc.). In the past, the phone book's ad section (the "Yellow Pages" here in the US) was the primary advertising method, though that's lost its power in the last 20 years.

Media coverage of the UFC drove a lot of interest in BJJ and MMA, so it does seem to matter. Movie coverage in the 70's and 80's drove a lot of the growth in those years. I'd be curious whether there's a small spike in Judo membership after the Olympics.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I agree it is a good thing to separate the mysticism from MA, a very good thing. And the reputation of the 70's & 80's where you had to register your deadly hands, absolutely. So, if you make it "easier and less fighty", shouldn't that also make the curriculum longer to achieve the same goal? I have a hard time reconciling easier not being watered down.


Yes, if you assume the same goal is there. There are a lot of folks who train in MA without fighting ability for self-defense being a conscious goal. If someone just wants to be active and fit, and enjoy the challenge of learning new skills, there's no reason to measure the curriculum's effectiveness the same way you'd measure it for someone who wants to compete in MMA or Karate competitions, nor for generic fighting ability.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> It sounds a lot like you are trying to create some kind of melting pot of all popular MA, gym, etc.. into one homogenized thing and market it with trained instructors to create this "lifestyle" product. Isn't the YMCA already doing that?


Creating a lifestyle product? Yes. Involving MA in that marketing? Not really. Did I miss the point of your post?

Though many Y's have MA programs on premises, many of those are not Y programs, but rented space (the Y I'm trying to go back to won't host the program - too much of a headache for their staff, so it'll be rented space).


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> If you really want to change public perception I think you have an awfully long road ahead of you, and it's all uphill...





pdg said:


> If you really want to change public perception I think you have an awfully long road ahead of you, and it's all uphill...



Agreed. So I either start now or never and I gotta figure things out as I go. I don't mind an uphill battle. Though it does mean I'll need to get creative. And if I've fallen short of such a lofty goal, then I don't mind that, either.


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> It sounds a lot like you are trying to create some kind of melting pot of all popular MA, gym, etc.. into one homogenized thing and market it with trained instructors to create this "lifestyle" product. Isn't the YMCA already doing that?



Homogenizing the martial arts would be a travesty there. I have zero intentions of turning the uniqueness of the myriad of styles into a melting pot. The idea is to be able to apply sound marketing strategies TO the traditional martial arts while building an INSTRUCTOR'S personal brand. Because learning a STYLE is one thing, but to learn from a certain INSTRUCTOR within that style is part of the overall agenda, too. I wanna build communities with those instructors as lynchpins in a similar vein to certain niche businesses, like coaching (Tony Robbins, anyone?). I'll be damned if I twist this into something like a YMCA program. May any gods that anyone believes in have mercy on me if I do, because I'll have none.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> In the context given, "watered down" I think meant making it easier and less "fighty". That's what some folks want, so I don't think that's antithetical to "lifting up". Is the current reputation worse for MA consumers than the semi-mystical reputation MA tended toward in the 70's and 80's? I doubt it.



Within the context given, kind of. It's less making it easier and more restoring it to form. A martial arts school with a solid community build around it tends to involve just as much a historical aspect as it does combative. What I wanna be able to bring back effectively is the idea of "this is how it was done in the past so that you can appreciate the adaptations that got us to now."


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> Very few, but I have run into 2 (maybe 3) that had waiting lists. That it's not more common suggests there's a mismatch - it's entirely possible we simply have more supply than demand, in general. A nice situation for us as consumers, but not for us as instructors.
> 
> 
> Oddly, the largest schools I've run into are among the more expensive (adjusted for area). Free and near-free programs tend to struggle more. Whether price is part of the cause of that difference or not, I can't really say.
> 
> 
> Agreed, mostly (except that price does change how many people can afford something, so changes the potential client base). The fee is not to identify a specific quality (other than the willingness and ability to pay that fee) - that's the purpose of marketing. Marketing, done well, allows consumers to properly self-select into or out of a product or service offering. That's what the OP was saying earlier about marketing creating "filters". When marketing is flawed, one of two things happens in unhealthy proportions: the wrong people show up to check things out (and aren't really interested after they look), or the people who would be interested can't figure out the value for themselves and don't show up to check things out. The most "broken" marketing creates both of those situations.



Price can be a part of it. People don't always value what's priced at the same rate as a cheap commodity or free. I'll still have to identify the true problem with how marketing is done for martial arts these days, but I also get the feeling that because the marketing being done is somewhat cookie-cutter and more reliant on the style rather than the instructor's personal brand, that may be my starting point.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Price can be a part of it. People don't always value what's priced at the same rate as a cheap commodity or free. I'll still have to identify the true problem with how marketing is done for martial arts these days, but I also get the feeling that because the marketing being done is somewhat cookie-cutter and more reliant on the style rather than the instructor's personal brand, that may be my starting point.


I think a lot of instructors (myself included) copy what others are doing - without really knowing if it's effective or not.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> I think a lot of instructors (myself included) copy what others are doing - without really knowing if it's effective or not.



Birds of a feather mentality, which is commonplace with everyone. And it's become the conventional wisdom of a martial arts business. Seen that happen with Michael Massie's business plan as well, so it's why I wanna flip the script and throw the conventional wisdom of running a school out the window, especially for a business as niche as martial arts. It's time to find a way to focus on the few instead of the many, because martial artists? We are the few. And conventional business tactics for a mass market basically burn a LOT of money to produce the kinda leads that a school wants.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Birds of a feather mentality, which is commonplace with everyone. And it's become the conventional wisdom of a martial arts business. Seen that happen with Michael Massie's business plan as well, so it's why I wanna flip the script and throw the conventional wisdom of running a school out the window, especially for a business as niche as martial arts. It's time to find a way to focus on the few instead of the many, because martial artists? We are the few. And conventional business tactics for a mass market basically burn a LOT of money to produce the kinda leads that a school wants.


If that's possible (and I'm skeptical, mostly because I've never seen it work before) that would be a great help to a lot of schools.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> If that's possible (and I'm skeptical, mostly because I've never seen it work before) that would be a great help to a lot of schools.



You're right to be skeptical. It hasn't been tried in so many circuits. In fact, I can count the successes on one hand, and one of them is Tuhon Jared Wihongi of Pekiti Tactical.


----------



## martialartsnerd

Jaeimseu said:


> Unfortunately, everything you mention here is why it is so incredibly difficult to survive as that type of business. The margin for error is so small in terms of success and failure. I’d consider it irresponsible as a business owner to not make as much money as you can. I think teaching real martial arts is important, too. Providing a quality service is crucial, but you won’t be teaching anyone if you can’t pay the rent. I think anyone wanting to focus on a such a relatively small market as adults (who want real martial arts with contact, etc.) would be crazy to open without consulting with/getting coaching from someone who has done it (more than once).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It's part of the reason why I'm delving into other business models, specifically that of independent consulting. I've also taken a look at Tuhon Jared Wihongi's Pekiti Tirsia Tactical Association as inspiration. He just recently launched his online modules, so time will tell where that goes, but those two sides have the ideas I wanna be able to apply across the board.


----------



## hoshin1600

i keep wanting to post about this and dig a little deeper but i cant seem to find the time.   the problem is that the product is karate, aikido or whatever.  everyone knows what it is and has a preconceived bias about it.  so there is the distinction between marketing the art, the school and the instructor.  it is difficult to market the art unless it is new like Defense Labs or Kerberos Combatives    (shameless self promotion  lol )  or something.  there is nothing new to say about aikido that hasnt been said in the last 50 years.  if it is a traditional school again the business model hasnt changed in 60 years.  the only defining character is the instructor.  what is so special about this particular instructor ?  probably not much different then the other 100 schools in the area.


----------



## martialartsnerd

hoshin1600 said:


> i keep wanting to post about this and dig a little deeper but i cant seem to find the time.   the problem is that the product is karate, aikido or whatever.  everyone knows what it is and has a preconceived bias about it.  so there is the distinction between marketing the art, the school and the instructor.  it is difficult to market the art unless it is new like Defense Labs or Kerberos Combatives    (shameless self promotion  lol )  or something.  there is nothing new to say about aikido that hasnt been said in the last 50 years.  if it is a traditional school again the business model hasnt changed in 60 years.  the only defining character is the instructor.  what is so special about this particular instructor ?  probably not much different then the other 100 schools in the area.



Ergo outlining the problem that I'm looking to solve, as well as being able to apply the marketing that I'm learning to other styles, regardless of their traditional reputation. You're absolutely right in that, because of the SHEER SUPPLY of TMA, it falls down to personal branding, and I've seen examples of that on a smaller scale. I just wanna be able to replicate that for others who actually really know their craft and help them do what they love as a full-time gig.


----------



## hoshin1600

martialartsnerd said:


> It's part of the reason why I'm delving into other business models, specifically that of independent consulting. I've also taken a look at Tuhon Jared Wihongi's Pekiti Tirsia Tactical Association as inspiration. He just recently launched his online modules, so time will tell where that goes, but those two sides have the ideas I wanna be able to apply across the board.



Pekiti tactical points out exactly what I was thinking.  It is a different product.  A visit to their Web sight shows the slogan "for law enforcement".   The instructor is really inconsequential. The reason they may be successful is that as a product it fills a new demand. I only looked at their Web sight for about 3 seconds so I am not sure but they could also be using a different business model.  The new model is to forgo the brick and mortar in order to reach more people.


----------



## martialartsnerd

hoshin1600 said:


> Pekiti tactical points out exactly what I was thinking.  It is a different product.  A visit to their Web sight shows the slogan "for law enforcement".   The instructor is really inconsequential. The reason they may be successful is that as a product it fills a new demand. I only looked at their Web sight for about 3 seconds so I am not sure but they could also be using a different business model.  The new model is to forgo the brick and mortar in order to reach more people.



Yes to several of these counts... although I disagree on the instructor. Jared Wihongi has made quite the name for himself at this point, with Pekiti Tactical being practically synonymous with the man. Where Wihongi goes, so does Pekiti Tactical (right down to flying internationally to teach seminars and the like, which isn't something you can get unless you've achieved celebrity authority status), in a similar vein to how Doug Marcaida is known for Marcaida Kali.


----------



## hoshin1600

martialartsnerd said:


> Yes to several of these counts... although I disagree on the instructor. Jared Wihongi has made quite the name for himself at this point, with Pekiti Tactical being practically synonymous with the man. Where Wihongi goes, so does Pekiti Tactical (right down to flying internationally to teach seminars and the like, which isn't something you can get unless you've achieved celebrity authority status), in a similar vein to how Doug Marcaida is known for Marcaida Kali.



i wasnt questioning Wihongi. i was making a statement about the approach to marketing in general.


----------



## martialartsnerd

hoshin1600 said:


> i wasnt questioning Wihongi. i was making a statement about the approach to marketing in general.



That makes sense. Wihongi DOES market his service more than he markets his personal brand, even though the way things go in the martial arts world, those two become VERY inextricably linked.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> Birds of a feather mentality, which is commonplace with everyone. And it's become the conventional wisdom of a martial arts business. Seen that happen with Michael Massie's business plan as well, so it's why I wanna flip the script and throw the conventional wisdom of running a school out the window, especially for a business as niche as martial arts. It's time to find a way to focus on the few instead of the many, because martial artists? We are the few. And conventional business tactics for a mass market basically burn a LOT of money to produce the kinda leads that a school wants.


Please explain how  you generate Martial Arts leads in volume.


----------



## CoachRonald

martialartsnerd said:


> Hey, guys! Newbie here, but I'd like to know what your biggest issue was when you started your own school or club. I've seen some really awesome instructors who really know their stuff, but can't really get a school running because they lack savvy in some area, usually marketing. It's part of why I decided to get into marketing so I can help those guys and, well, make some money off of that.



I believe the correct is the decentralization of functions. A  master/professor/ or instrutor shouldn't deal directly with the financial sector of the gym/school/team. The only thing they should see is  the athlete and practitioner in their sporting potential to be explored. In professional sports that's the rule  the coach doesn't speak about money whith the athlete, just about their performance and duties. It makes the relationship  stronger, so it's pretty hard to believe in an individual that gives us intructions to our life thinking in their pockets. However, it seems to work only in professional teams. In the amateur ones the professor ends needing this abillity of conciliating business and teaching. I'd dare to say that the more the  expressive the first competence the less traces and qualifications of a true master the individual presents.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

CoachRonald said:


> I believe the correct is the decentralization of functions. A  master/professor/ or instrutor shouldn't deal directly with the financial sector of the gym/school/team. The only thing they should see is  the athlete and practitioner in their sporting potential to be explored. In professional sports that's the rule  the coach doesn't speak about money whith the athlete, just about their performance and duties. It makes the relationship  stronger, so it's pretty hard to believe in an individual that gives us intructions to our life thinking in their pockets. However, it seems to work only in professional teams. In the amateur ones the professor ends needing this abillity of conciliating business and teaching. I'd dare to say that the more the  expressive the first competence the less traces and qualifications of a true master the individual presents.


There are a lot of instructors who would prefer that, too. But it's not a reality for many of us. Many of us are the entire staff (or at least the largest part of "staff") for our school/program, and so must deal with all parts of the business, like many other small businesses.


----------



## CoachRonald

gpseymour said:


> There are a lot of instructors who would prefer that, too. But it's not a reality for many of us. Many of us are the entire staff (or at least the largest part of "staff") for our school/program, and so must deal with all parts of the business, like many other small businesses.





That's the point. The circumstances lead to it.


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> Please explain how  you generate Martial Arts leads in volume.



Positioning. The plan's to make a celebrity authority out of the instructor so that the instructor becomes known as the "go-to" guy for their specific style and/or niche in that style. On example would be how Paul Vunak amassed great wealth with his understanding of martial arts combined with his understanding of street combat to create Rapid Assault Tactics. While it's unlikely people OUTSIDE of the Filipino Martial Arts community in the US have heard of him, he's still making a damn fortune off of those who pay for his training.


----------



## martialartsnerd

CoachRonald said:


> I believe the correct is the decentralization of functions. A  master/professor/ or instrutor shouldn't deal directly with the financial sector of the gym/school/team. The only thing they should see is  the athlete and practitioner in their sporting potential to be explored. In professional sports that's the rule  the coach doesn't speak about money whith the athlete, just about their performance and duties. It makes the relationship  stronger, so it's pretty hard to believe in an individual that gives us intructions to our life thinking in their pockets. However, it seems to work only in professional teams. In the amateur ones the professor ends needing this abillity of conciliating business and teaching. I'd dare to say that the more the  expressive the first competence the less traces and qualifications of a true master the individual presents.



And that's the other issue that I'm hoping to fix, because people do have to know that, in the end, it IS a business and there IS the question of money involved, always. To deny that is foolish, but it's also best to clear it up at the very beginning so that the teacher can focus down on good training instead.


----------



## dvcochran

CoachRonald said:


> I believe the correct is the decentralization of functions. A  master/professor/ or instrutor shouldn't deal directly with the financial sector of the gym/school/team. The only thing they should see is  the athlete and practitioner in their sporting potential to be explored. In professional sports that's the rule  the coach doesn't speak about money whith the athlete, just about their performance and duties. It makes the relationship  stronger, so it's pretty hard to believe in an individual that gives us intructions to our life thinking in their pockets. However, it seems to work only in professional teams. In the amateur ones the professor ends needing this abillity of conciliating business and teaching. I'd dare to say that the more the  expressive the first competence the less traces and qualifications of a true master the individual presents.


I had to read it a few times to figure out where you were going, but I strongly disagree with your last statement. It sounds like you are in the education world with common knowledge of the theory but no real world application. To say a person with strong book keeping skills can't be a good instructor is just ridicules. I have trained 19 AAU and Junior Olympics gold medal competitors, 6 TN Team USA medal competitors, 2 U.S. national metal competitors. No, they were not professional (paid) competitors but my coaching relationship with them was 100% professional. I hand delivered every bill and addressed any billing issues personally. Frankly, if a person don't have the balls to do both professionally, something is missing.


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> I had to read it a few times to figure out where you were going, but I strongly disagree with your last statement. It sounds like you are in the education world with common knowledge of the theory but no real world application. To say a person with strong book keeping skills can't be a good instructor is just ridicules. I have trained 19 AAU and Junior Olympics gold medal competitors, 6 TN Team USA medal competitors, 2 U.S. national metal competitors. No, they were not professional (paid) competitors but my coaching relationship with them was 100% professional. I hand delivered every bill and addressed any billing issues personally. Frankly, if a person don't have the balls to do both professionally, something is missing.



Agreed, especially since people seem to have little issues when other kinds of coaches and personal trainers do this. It shouldn't be different with a martial arts instructor, but people append a whole lotta hippie-esque ideology to the craft, even though professional instruction in hand-to-hand had been a part of military training since time immemorial, even if it's basic hand-to-hand. Hell, Musashi became an independent consultant after his experience, and then we have the guys like the Yagyu, who were commissioned to teach the Tokugawa shogunate. There is always a professional aspect to the martial arts and to deny that is idiocy.


----------



## martialartsnerd

martialartsnerd said:


> Agreed, especially since people seem to have little issues when other kinds of coaches and personal trainers do this. It shouldn't be different with a martial arts instructor, but people append a whole lotta hippie-esque ideology to the craft, even though professional instruction in hand-to-hand had been a part of military training since time immemorial, even if it's basic hand-to-hand. Hell, Musashi became an independent consultant after his experience, and then we have the guys like the Yagyu, who were commissioned to teach the Tokugawa shogunate. There is always a professional aspect to the martial arts and to deny that is idiocy.



Although, admittedly, instructors can't necessarily spread themselves thin doing their own EVERYTHING, specially when certain tactics, like the marketing, haven't drastically changed in an ever redder ocean.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> an ever redder ocean


That's an interesting turn of phrase; I don't think I've ever heard it before.


----------



## pdg

I've been thinking more...

Decetralisation may well work for professional coaches, but they're in an entirely different situation.

The team hires them and pays them - the athlete does what they're told. It's not the athlete's place to deal with the financial aspect - that's why the coach doesn't discuss it with them.


Marketing:

The standard advice given on here when a person asks about which school or art is to visit every one and pick the one you gel with best.

Marketing has no place in that over and above making your presence known.

There's a school near me (part of a large chain) that has 'good' marketing, glossy photos in magazines, testimonials from happy parents - but it's a crap school. They have no shortage of paying students which may be good from a business perspective, but from an art perspective?

I firmly believe their continuing success is purely marketing and very loose celebrity association.


----------



## JR 137

pdg said:


> I've been thinking more...
> 
> Decetralisation may well work for professional coaches, but they're in an entirely different situation.
> 
> The team hires them and pays them - the athlete does what they're told. It's not the athlete's place to deal with the financial aspect - that's why the coach doesn't discuss it with them.
> 
> 
> Marketing:
> 
> The standard advice given on here when a person asks about which school or art is to visit every one and pick the one you gel with best.
> 
> Marketing has no place in that over and above making your presence known.
> 
> There's a school near me (part of a large chain) that has 'good' marketing, glossy photos in magazines, testimonials from happy parents - but it's a crap school. They have no shortage of paying students which may be good from a business perspective, but from an art perspective?
> 
> I firmly believe their continuing success is purely marketing and very loose celebrity association.


Why is that school so “great”?  Because everything the read and saw told them so.  I don’t know how many times I’ve been told the McDojo a few blocks from the (academic) school I teach at is the best.  Why’s it the best? Someone told them so.  Who’s that someone?  I’d have a hard time believing it wasn’t the school itself.

Marketing.  Plain and simple. 

What’s the best sounding stereo?  Bose.  Why?  They told you so.  Ask anyone who knows anything about stereos beyond seeing a few Bose infomercials, and you’ll get plenty of laughs asking about Bose.  “Better sound through research” should be changed to “Better perceived sound through marketing.”

Why do people think Tag Heuer watches are so great?  Marketing.  To watch guys, they make a few legitimately good watches, and the rest are overmarketed and overpriced watches no better than mass marketed watches costing significantly less.

If you’re not telling people you’re the best, who is?  Marketing 101 IMO.  Most people don’t have the time nor desire to figure out who’s the best teacher/school for them.  They want to be told.  If a parent is looking to send their kids to an MA school, where do they typically end up going?  The local McDojo who advertises the most and tells parents they’re the best.

The people who come to places like here and ask about MA school options are truly the exception, not the rule.


----------



## wanderingstudent

My issue has been just finding people, with an interest.

I even reached out to some people, from an old school.  Their school was closing, I saw it as an opportunity.  My aggravation with the situation is that not one person connected the dots.  I am not some tool, I used to train at your school; after 5 years I had nothing to show for it.  And the thing is, they have an awesome FB page.  For all appearances, they are pretty legit.  In reality, they are all Paper Tigers.


----------



## pdg

JR 137 said:


> Why is that school so “great”?  Because everything the read and saw told them so.  I don’t know how many times I’ve been told the McDojo a few blocks from the (academic) school I teach at is the best.  Why’s it the best? Someone told them so.  Who’s that someone?  I’d have a hard time believing it wasn’t the school itself.
> 
> Marketing.  Plain and simple.
> 
> What’s the best sounding stereo?  Bose.  Why?  They told you so.  Ask anyone who knows anything about stereos beyond seeing a few Bose infomercials, and you’ll get plenty of laughs asking about Bose.  “Better sound through research” should be changed to “Better perceived sound through marketing.”
> 
> Why do people think Tag Heuer watches are so great?  Marketing.  To watch guys, they make a few legitimately good watches, and the rest are overmarketed and overpriced watches no better than mass marketed watches costing significantly less.
> 
> If you’re not telling people you’re the best, who is?  Marketing 101 IMO.  Most people don’t have the time nor desire to figure out who’s the best teacher/school for them.  They want to be told.  If a parent is looking to send their kids to an MA school, where do they typically end up going?  The local McDojo who advertises the most and tells parents they’re the best.
> 
> *The people who come to places like here and ask about MA school options are truly the exception, not the rule.*



Bold added by me...

If I'm following the thread correctly, the type of students allegedly targeted by this new marketing idea (as in another thread too) are the ones that are serious about learning.

In other words, _exactly_ the type to come here and ask. _Exactly_ the type not to be swayed by pretty marketing.

Erm, exactly the type that might actually be put off by an over marketed school? Exactly the type to visit, observe, assess and compare and put more stock in that than in Jennifer the parent saying how great the school is for her darling Tarquin?

Or maybe like me, the type who knows how much marketing costs and wonders precisely how much of the fees are going into adverts rather than better kit and instructors?




That said, apparently students who don't mind paying extra to have real lessons are wanted too - so maybe fluff and flash are more suitable for the type of school who wants intensive marketing?




(I'm aware I may be merging threads here, I'm lost with all this...)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> I've been thinking more...
> 
> Decetralisation may well work for professional coaches, but they're in an entirely different situation.
> 
> The team hires them and pays them - the athlete does what they're told. It's not the athlete's place to deal with the financial aspect - that's why the coach doesn't discuss it with them.
> 
> 
> Marketing:
> 
> The standard advice given on here when a person asks about which school or art is to visit every one and pick the one you gel with best.
> 
> Marketing has no place in that over and above making your presence known.
> 
> There's a school near me (part of a large chain) that has 'good' marketing, glossy photos in magazines, testimonials from happy parents - but it's a crap school. They have no shortage of paying students which may be good from a business perspective, but from an art perspective?
> 
> I firmly believe their continuing success is purely marketing and very loose celebrity association.


If it works for the crap schools, why not extend that success to the better programs? Realistically, many people will join the first school they go to that seems kind of "right" - whatever that means to them. Effective marketing would bring more of those to any given program.

Truly good marketing should actually help with the process of finding a "fit". Advice often given to (life/management/business/whatever) coaches is to tailor their marketing so it speaks to their ideal audience. The idea is to help the right people figure out it's probably a good fit right off the bat, and help folks who wouldn't find what they need figure it out more quickly (saving them and the coach some time). If marketing helps accomplish that, people are more likely to walk into a school that's a "fit" for them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> Bold added by me...
> 
> If I'm following the thread correctly, the type of students allegedly targeted by this new marketing idea (as in another thread too) are the ones that are serious about learning.
> 
> In other words, _exactly_ the type to come here and ask. _Exactly_ the type not to be swayed by pretty marketing.
> 
> Erm, exactly the type that might actually be put off by an over marketed school? Exactly the type to visit, observe, assess and compare and put more stock in that than in Jennifer the parent saying how great the school is for her darling Tarquin?
> 
> Or maybe like me, the type who knows how much marketing costs and wonders precisely how much of the fees are going into adverts rather than better kit and instructors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said, apparently students who don't mind paying extra to have real lessons are wanted too - so maybe fluff and flash are more suitable for the type of school who wants intensive marketing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I'm aware I may be merging threads here, I'm lost with all this...)


I don't know that there's a connection between the serious, long-term, dedicated student and who asks on here. Of course, when I selected my first school (the first was selected for me, and the second was happenstance when a family friend started teaching again), I didn't try to find knowledgeable people and ask their opinion (though I did know a few). I saw a demo I liked, and went to the school. I trained there continuously (through two changes of  chief instructor) for more than 20 years. I think some people naturally research more (either out of caution or because they are personally thorough) and others just go try it out and see what happens. Good students will come from both camps. And both will, in fact, be affected by marketing. Even when we are aware of marketing's aim, it still tends to influence us.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> That's an interesting turn of phrase; I don't think I've ever heard it before.



It's something I picked up as I read Blue Ocean Strategy. A red ocean means that the industry's become competitive and that everyone competes on conventional points, such as pricing, quality, etc. A blue ocean is unlocked by finding a certain value that unlocks its own market from the crowd. One potential for unlocking a blue ocean is almost always personal brand, because that can't be copied. Not easily, anyway. And I feel that this is ESPECIALLY the case in the martial arts.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> I've been thinking more...
> 
> Decetralisation may well work for professional coaches, but they're in an entirely different situation.
> 
> The team hires them and pays them - the athlete does what they're told. It's not the athlete's place to deal with the financial aspect - that's why the coach doesn't discuss it with them.
> 
> 
> Marketing:
> 
> The standard advice given on here when a person asks about which school or art is to visit every one and pick the one you gel with best.
> 
> Marketing has no place in that over and above making your presence known.
> 
> There's a school near me (part of a large chain) that has 'good' marketing, glossy photos in magazines, testimonials from happy parents - but it's a crap school. They have no shortage of paying students which may be good from a business perspective, but from an art perspective?
> 
> I firmly believe their continuing success is purely marketing and very loose celebrity association.



That's EXACTLY the problem I'm out to solve. They're the schools I wanna declare war on and just go scorched-earth until they have no choice but to back down.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> If it works for the crap schools, why not extend that success to the better programs? Realistically, many people will join the first school they go to that seems kind of "right" - whatever that means to them. Effective marketing would bring more of those to any given program.
> 
> Truly good marketing should actually help with the process of finding a "fit". Advice often given to (life/management/business/whatever) coaches is to tailor their marketing so it speaks to their ideal audience. The idea is to help the right people figure out it's probably a good fit right off the bat, and help folks who wouldn't find what they need figure it out more quickly (saving them and the coach some time). If marketing helps accomplish that, people are more likely to walk into a school that's a "fit" for them.



Exactly.


----------



## CoachRonald

As I said before, in professional sports that's the rule. The coach doesn't need worry about brands or marketing  strategies.
I think it's very unplesable to think about a profitable image that could improve the 'sells'. The public that seek a famous brands generally is that  type of person that doesn't matter  with the quality of training and want in fact to take some photos to put on Instagram. I witnessed it as student  and coach and by this reason I prefer to be honest with the student at the very begnining saying  him that I don't sell goods or services. I just offer  the possibility of being part of my team and follow the way of practionners that seek knowldge,  not the consume of good.


----------



## pdg

CoachRonald said:


> As I said before, in professional sports that's the rule. The coach doesn't need worry about brands or marketing strategies



So how does the coach get a job?

If he's employed exclusively by one team, then yeah fine, he's just a staffer - essentially just the same as the athlete or the janitor.

If he's freelance, then if he doesn't do any form of marketing or financial management he won't be getting any work or money at all.

If he's coaching for a team member then he deals with the team - if he's something like a tennis coach I'd bet my last biscuit he talks payment with his clients.

The latter (freelance) is like a lot of (most?) MA instructors - they are effectively freelancing out their services to their students.

If they don't market at all they have no students - if they don't deal with money they don't get paid.

To blanket all of them that don't have a financial secretary and marketing team on the the books as poor teachers is discounting an awful lot of people...



(Of course, I'm assuming here that you're not only counting stuff like baseball and padded rugby as "professional sports")


----------



## pdg

And another thing...

So in this MA environment where the student (athlete) and the instructor (coach) don't have any discussion about finances in case it distracts from the ultimate goal:

Who pays my tuition and who takes it?

It's not like "I have people to deal with that sort of thing", and I know my instructor doesn't either.

So?


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> That's EXACTLY the problem I'm out to solve. They're the schools I wanna declare war on and just go scorched-earth until they have no choice but to back down.



Good luck...

Those sort of places (larger chains) are run by millionaires with no fear of court action.

How exactly do you plan to wage this war?


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> Good luck...
> 
> Those sort of places (larger chains) are run by millionaires with no fear of court action.
> 
> How exactly do you plan to wage this war?



If I can't go directly, then I'll have to go indirectly. It's why I aim to market for the legitimate schools to the point that the legitimate schools have better marketing than the McDojos. I'm not gonna market to the uninformed soccer mom crowd, that just isn't happening, so the McDojos can have that, I don't really care. What I care about is taking the martial arts schools that deserve better to the online space and making sure their outreach through YouTube and other social media is on point.

If the uninformed want in, they'll have to start off with the very tip of the spear of an education-based marketing campaign rather than the shiny objects that McDojos like to offer.


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> I'm not gonna market to the uninformed soccer mom crowd, that just isn't happening, so the McDojos can have that, I don't really care



So you're also wiping out the biggest market, the one that allows many schools to actually keep the doors open?

And those kids, what about the percentage of those that become lifelong practitioners? Not interested in those either?

I see a huge potential for you to get a reputation quite quickly - the question is do you want to be known as the financially elitist self proclaimed god's gift to MA?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> So you're also wiping out the biggest market, the one that allows many schools to actually keep the doors open?
> 
> And those kids, what about the percentage of those that become lifelong practitioners? Not interested in those either?
> 
> I see a huge potential for you to get a reputation quite quickly - the question is do you want to be known as the financially elitist self proclaimed god's gift to MA?


This is a good point. For schools that want to teach kids, "soccer moms" aren't a bad demographic to reach. I think if we go back to his earlier points, though, he was talking about wanting to help instructors get more adult students. At that point, the soccer mom isn't an important demographic.


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> This is a good point. For schools that want to teach kids, "soccer moms" aren't a bad demographic to reach. I think if we go back to his earlier points, though, he was talking about wanting to help instructors get more adult students. At that point, the soccer mom isn't an important demographic.



Well, if that's the case:




martialartsnerd said:


> That's EXACTLY the problem I'm out to solve. They're the schools I wanna declare war on and just go scorched-earth until they have no choice but to back down.



has no place whatsoever in the thought process and smacks of a personal vendetta.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> Well, if that's the case:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> has no place whatsoever in the thought process and smacks of a personal vendetta.


Passionate, perhaps - even over-passionate. But nothing terribly objectionable in it.


----------



## Michele123

Word of mouth is still the best advertising IMO. My daughter is on the autism spectrum. Her Taekwondo instructor has been amazing for her. I told another family from church who has a child very similar to my daughter. They now drive 30 minutes to come to our school, passing over several others, because of our instructor gift in working with ASD kids. 

This might go toward the OPs point about marketing the instructor. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Michele123 said:


> Word of mouth is still the best advertising IMO. My daughter is on the autism spectrum. Her Taekwondo instructor has been amazing for her. I told another family from church who has a child very similar to my daughter. They now drive 30 minutes to come to our school, passing over several others, because of our instructor gift in working with ASD kids.
> 
> This might go toward the OPs point about marketing the instructor.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree that word-of-mouth is the most potent marketing (in any industry, almost universally).The problem with word-of-mouth is that it doesn't work well until you reach a certain size (for schools) or level of recognition. It's hard to get much coverage from your first 3 students.


----------



## martialartsnerd

martialartsnerd said:


> If I can't go directly, then I'll have to go indirectly. It's why I aim to market for the legitimate schools to the point that the legitimate schools have better marketing than the McDojos. I'm not gonna market to the uninformed soccer mom crowd, that just isn't happening, so the McDojos can have that, I don't really care. What I care about is taking the martial arts schools that deserve better to the online space and making sure their outreach through YouTube and other social media is on point.





pdg said:


> So you're also wiping out the biggest market, the one that allows many schools to actually keep the doors open?
> 
> And those kids, what about the percentage of those that become lifelong practitioners? Not interested in those either?
> 
> I see a huge potential for you to get a reputation quite quickly - the question is do you want to be known as the financially elitist self proclaimed god's gift to MA?



If that's the reputation I acquire in the process, so be it. Bring on the haters, I knew I'd be making enemies at some point or another. My aim is to help martial arts schools inform their ideal clientele BEFORE any leads step into the doors of a school. If that clientele happens to be soccer moms and those soccer moms learn about martial arts (rather than learning martial arts), then that'd be nice. If that clientele ISN'T, again, I can still sleep soundly and focus on the few rather than the many. I see no reason for an instructor to have to spend additional time explaining what their martial arts is and what it's all about when a good marketing campaign can do that for them without additional personal effort.

As for the percentage of kids who become lifelong practitioners, that percentage is LOW and the way schools have to obtain and RETAIN those lifelong practitioners involves so much time, effort, and money that it can easily dance on the point of diminishing returns. Which, again, is why I aim to create an effective funnel-marketing campaign that sends the ones that won't pepper the instructor with the questions that only the most uninformed would ask, because that bullcrap is TIRING. And if there's anything martial arts instructors shouldn't have to expend valuable time and energy on, it's informing the uninformed that step through their doors. With the marketing campaign that I have in mind, that should limit these occurrences.

Again, whatever reputation I get in the process, so long as I make the right enemies and the right allies, I'm marching forward. That's more important to me than simply playing the good guy to everyone.


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## martialartsnerd

Michele123 said:


> Word of mouth is still the best advertising IMO. My daughter is on the autism spectrum. Her Taekwondo instructor has been amazing for her. I told another family from church who has a child very similar to my daughter. They now drive 30 minutes to come to our school, passing over several others, because of our instructor gift in working with ASD kids.
> 
> This might go toward the OPs point about marketing the instructor.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Oh, that's actually quite nice! And it absolutely does! Instructors don't always fully realize just how much leverage personal branding can have.


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## martialartsnerd

wanderingstudent said:


> My issue has been just finding people, with an interest.
> 
> I even reached out to some people, from an old school.  Their school was closing, I saw it as an opportunity.  My aggravation with the situation is that not one person connected the dots.  I am not some tool, I used to train at your school; after 5 years I had nothing to show for it.  And the thing is, they have an awesome FB page.  For all appearances, they are pretty legit.  In reality, they are all Paper Tigers.



Finding people, let alone qualified leads, has always been an issue, and it's a bit two-edged in that the martial arts industry has yet to adapt modern marketing tactics to an ever-evolving world. The over-dependency on obsolete marketing models has sent costs flying through the roof just to obtain one lead, leaving the legitimate small-business schools at a massive disadvantage compared to the McDojos that managed to get filthy rich in the worst way possible. McDojos, I feel, can get away with traditional marketing as done in the martial arts industry because THEY JUST HAVE THAT MUCH MONEY. For the ones who don't, they need a different tactic instead of playing the same game that these financial titans can play better simply because of a vast difference in spending power.


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## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Finding people, let alone qualified leads, has always been an issue, and it's a bit two-edged in that the martial arts industry has yet to adapt modern marketing tactics to an ever-evolving world. The over-dependency on obsolete marketing models has sent costs flying through the roof just to obtain one lead, leaving the legitimate small-business schools at a massive disadvantage compared to the McDojos that managed to get filthy rich in the worst way possible. McDojos, I feel, can get away with traditional marketing as done in the martial arts industry because THEY JUST HAVE THAT MUCH MONEY. For the ones who don't, they need a different tactic instead of playing the same game that these financial titans can play better simply because of a vast difference in spending power.


I'd be careful equating money with "McDojo" (though that is where many of us tend to go). "McDojo" is a vague term - there is little real agreement on how to identify one. I think it best fits Justice Stewart's comment in _Jacobellis v. Ohio_: "I know it when I see it". The place I'd be most likely to call a McDojo around me is not huge. It's successful, but has been in the same small storefront for decades, so isn't that big. I think the training and abilities produced are laughable, but the students are happy. He's serving the desires of his market. The group I'd have thrown that epithet at back in my old hometown was more an early XMA-style dojo. They made more money, but they also produced better skills (though some of those skills aren't fighting skills). They, too, served their market well.

Rare in my experience is the school that's actually fleecing the sheep. The issue for instructors like me is that we want serious students from day one (which doesn't really exist - those who seem most serious often are among the least committed). We need to learn to recognize the right pool of candidates, attract and retain enough of them, and price our services appropriately so we can earn what we need. It's my experience that railing against the other schools (including the McDojos of the world) takes our focus off our own faults. Basically, we blame our failure on their success.


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## hoshin1600

martialartsnerd said:


> It's something I picked up as I read Blue Ocean Strategy. A red ocean means that the industry's become competitive and that everyone competes on conventional points, such as pricing, quality, etc. A blue ocean is unlocked by finding a certain value that unlocks its own market from the crowd. One potential for unlocking a blue ocean is almost always personal brand, because that can't be copied. Not easily, anyway. And I feel that this is ESPECIALLY the case in the martial arts.



there is a fatal flaw in personal branding,  its not scalable.  a successful school does not require the owner to teach every class everyday.  in fact its just the opposite.  one of the issues i see as i read many of these posts is your wanting to apply a modern marketing model but that would need a prerequisite of a modern business model for the school, which is rare.  the bulk of martial schools are still using the same business model that was established in the 1950's or earlier.

....In fact many of the qualities we consider McDojo hallmarks and really just good, modern business practices  (AKA...amenities or additional services and conviences)


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## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> there is a fatal flaw in personal branding,  its not scalable.  a successful school does not require the owner to teach every class everyday.  in fact its just the opposite.  one of the issues i see as i read many of these posts is your wanting to apply a modern marketing model but that would need a prerequisite of a modern business model for the school, which is rare.  the bulk of martial schools are still using the same business model that was established in the 1950's or earlier.
> 
> ....In fact many of the qualities we consider McDojo hallmarks and really just good, modern business practices  (AKA...amenities or additional services and conviences)


There are some really good examples of people managing to scale businesses started on personal branding. The Jack Canfield Company and the John Maxwell Company both stand on the name and reputation of their founders, and now train and certify coaches, trainers, etc., who use that brand to sell their services. I agree it's harder to do than when the brand isn't seen as a personal brand (Harv Eker branded his similar business as Peak Potentials, which made it easier to gradually replace himself in the day-to-day running).


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## hoshin1600

gpseymour said:


> There are some really good examples of people managing to scale businesses started on personal branding. The Jack Canfield Company and the John Maxwell Company both stand on the name and reputation of their founders, and now train and certify coaches, trainers, etc., who use that brand to sell their services. I agree it's harder to do than when the brand isn't seen as a personal brand (Harv Eker branded his similar business as Peak Potentials, which made it easier to gradually replace himself in the day-to-day running).


i think that is totally different.  both Jack and John are motivational speakers who write books, same as Anthony Robbins.  Kiyosaki has branded seminars all over that is run by others.  each of these guys ARE the product.  where as Uechi - Ryu karate is the product and Aikido is the product.. this goes back to what i was saying before, it is difficult to get beyond that unless you create your own system.  other wise Aikido is branded by the linage.  oh its Satome Aikido,, its Saito aikido, Shioda or Tohei.   in most cases the brand is already there.  Villari karate, Cerio Karate, Morio Higaonna's IOGKF,  Yamaguchi Goju-Kai, Gracie BJJ,,the list is endless.  the brand, the name, the expectation is already there through the lineage.  you cant put a brand on top of brand.  if the marketing is to build up the "person",, first off your going to upset the establishment of the lineage.  then its going to put the teacher in a serious position of questioning his credentials and his ability.  the teacher would have to be really fricken good.  otherwise the marketing is going to have the reverse effect and give you a bad reputation. everyone will be talking about you and your brand but not in a good way.  you'll be sure to be flamed on the Bullshito sight.



EDIT:  and the scale of Canfield and Maxwell and the rest is not comparable.  they started with a framework of being internationally known.  not the same if your just a guy who owns the local dojo.  in order for the MA guy to do that he would have to start with that scale in mind and maybe write a book or become a YouTube sensation.  thats all based on business model not marketing.. that was the point of my previous post.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> i think that is totally different.  both Jack and John are motivational speakers who write books, same as Anthony Robbins.  Kiyosaki has branded seminars all over that is run by others.  each of these guys ARE the product.  where as Uechi - Ryu karate is the product and Aikido is the product.. this goes back to what i was saying before, it is difficult to get beyond that unless you create your own system.  other wise Aikido is branded by the linage.  oh its Satome Aikido,, its Saito aikido, Shioda or Tohei.   in most cases the brand is already there.  Villari karate, Cerio Karate, Morio Higaonna's IOGKF,  Yamaguchi Goju-Kai, Gracie BJJ,,the list is endless.  the brand, the name, the expectation is already there through the lineage.  you cant put a brand on top of brand.  if the marketing is to build up the "person",, first off your going to upset the establishment of the lineage.  then its going to put the teacher in a serious position of questioning his credentials and his ability.  the teacher would have to be really fricken good.  otherwise the marketing is going to have the reverse effect and give you a bad reputation. everyone will be talking about you and your brand but not in a good way.  you'll be sure to be flamed on the Bullshito sight.
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT:  and the scale of Canfield and Maxwell and the rest is not comparable.  they started with a framework of being internationally known.  not the same if your just a guy who owns the local dojo.  in order for the MA guy to do that he would have to start with that scale in mind and maybe write a book or become a YouTube sensation.  thats all based on business model not marketing.. that was the point of my previous post.


Maxwell's product is his brand of leadership training (the motivational speaking is only him, AFAIK). That's a bit like Jeet Kun Do being Bruce Lee's product. It started out being backed mostly by his reputation, and his name is still probably a significant part of why some people get into the art. If he were alive, it would be easy to see how he could have several schools that he didn't teach at, except for some advanced classes, and the marketing would include something about all the instructors being "personally trained by Bruce Lee", which effectively scales his reputation.

It's certainly not entirely the same, and there are some issues, but there are definite parallels and examples of where it has worked in some ways. Remember that the Gracies started from Judo (then often called Jiu-jutsu), and branded their reinterpretation of it. I advertise that I teach NGA, but there's no reason I have to. I could easily market Shojin-ryu, Seymour Combatives, or whatever branding would work. Most of us only use the style name because it communicates to prospective students who happen to already know some style names, and allows us to stay linked to some larger community. The average student doesn't know what Kyokushin, NGA, or most other arts/styles actually are, so it's likely not important to branding. The exception right now would be Muay Thai and BJJ/GJJ. Those have gained a brand-specific recognition among a significant portion of interested (even if not "informed") consumers. The rest of us might as well make up some words, for all the style name communicates to most prospects.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> EDIT: and the scale of Canfield and Maxwell and the rest is not comparable. they started with a framework of being internationally known. not the same if your just a guy who owns the local dojo. in order for the MA guy to do that he would have to start with that scale in mind and maybe write a book or become a YouTube sensation. thats all based on business model not marketing.. that was the point of my previous post.


I missed this - might have been replying when you edited. I agree entirely that it's not the same. For most of us, though, we don't have dreams of having 50 schools. So building a local reputation would be effective. We just need to be able to confer that reputation to some other instructors who can teach some of the classes, and perhaps open other schools for us.


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## hoshin1600

gpseymour said:


> I missed this - might have been replying when you edited. I agree entirely that it's not the same. For most of us, though, we don't have dreams of having 50 schools. So building a local reputation would be effective. We just need to be able to confer that reputation to some other instructors who can teach some of the classes, and perhaps open other schools for us.



i would say for the most part students show up because they like YOU.  they expect to be taught by you. i actually quit a Goju school because most of the classes where taught by who ever was the highest rank person to show up that night.  i felt im paying good money, im not here to learn from a green belt.  i have also had experiences where i or my instructor passed the teaching to another and people stopped coming.  
i also had an issue with another one of my business where i did remodeling and people expected me to be doing all the work and didnt like that i had to pass some work to others.  their expectation was i was the one who was going to do the work.  if a marketing company is going to brand the individual i think it is building the expectation that the student will be learning from you.  this is why i would never brand myself personally and also why i dont want to build my brands reputation on a "style"  other than my own.  if its not my creation its not unique and can be found down the street at the "other"  aikido/ karate school.


----------



## WaterGal

hoshin1600 said:


> i would say for the most part students show up because they like YOU.  they expect to be taught by you. i actually quit a Goju school because most of the classes where taught by who ever was the highest rank person to show up that night.  i felt im paying good money, im not here to learn from a green belt.  i have also had experiences where i or my instructor passed the teaching to another and people stopped coming.
> i also had an issue with another one of my business where i did remodeling and people expected me to be doing all the work and didnt like that i had to pass some work to others.  their expectation was i was the one who was going to do the work.  if a marketing company is going to brand the individual i think it is building the expectation that the student will be learning from you.  this is why i would never brand myself personally and also why i dont want to build my brands reputation on a "style"  other than my own.  if its not my creation its not unique and can be found down the street at the "other"  aikido/ karate school.



I think that students show up because they expect to be taught to by a qualified instructor who teaches the way you do, whether that's you or someone you've trained in teaching your instructional method & lesson plans. The problem is when the instructing is passed off to anyone who showed up with a decent rank, but who hasn't been taught how to teach.


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## martialartsnerd

hoshin1600 said:


> there is a fatal flaw in personal branding,  its not scalable.  a successful school does not require the owner to teach every class everyday.  in fact its just the opposite.  one of the issues i see as i read many of these posts is your wanting to apply a modern marketing model but that would need a prerequisite of a modern business model for the school, which is rare.  the bulk of martial schools are still using the same business model that was established in the 1950's or earlier.
> 
> ....In fact many of the qualities we consider McDojo hallmarks and really just good, modern business practices  (AKA...amenities or additional services and conviences)



That's fair. It's part of why I decided to take a look at examples OUTSIDE the industry, but you're right in that McDojos are being run with good business acumen. So I'm trying to go for a JKD approach to the business side of things. If I can find a way to help schools simplify, make money, and teach legitimate stuff, then I'll consider my mission accomplished.


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## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> I'd be careful equating money with "McDojo" (though that is where many of us tend to go). "McDojo" is a vague term - there is little real agreement on how to identify one. I think it best fits Justice Stewart's comment in _Jacobellis v. Ohio_: "I know it when I see it". The place I'd be most likely to call a McDojo around me is not huge. It's successful, but has been in the same small storefront for decades, so isn't that big. I think the training and abilities produced are laughable, but the students are happy. He's serving the desires of his market. The group I'd have thrown that epithet at back in my old hometown was more an early XMA-style dojo. They made more money, but they also produced better skills (though some of those skills aren't fighting skills). They, too, served their market well.
> 
> Rare in my experience is the school that's actually fleecing the sheep. The issue for instructors like me is that we want serious students from day one (which doesn't really exist - those who seem most serious often are among the least committed). We need to learn to recognize the right pool of candidates, attract and retain enough of them, and price our services appropriately so we can earn what we need. It's my experience that railing against the other schools (including the McDojos of the world) takes our focus off our own faults. Basically, we blame our failure on their success.



That's fair. And that's true! Basically, everything I'm trying to accomplish, so it does fall down to a focus on what's wrong with the GOOD schools rather than the SUCCESSFUL schools. I think I have to re-research what the hell's going on there.


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## Michele123

I don’t have a school. I only ran one very briefly in college and I ran it as a club. I taught but didn’t charge. So my experience in this area is slight. However, I’m very interested in this topic. 

That said, what if the problem is simply that most people aren’t interested in the product?  Most people who pick up MA don’t look for a good school. They look for a place they can have fun and feel good about themselves. Actual fighting skills are just an incidental they may or may not acquire.


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## martialartsnerd

Michele123 said:


> I don’t have a school. I only ran one very briefly in college and I ran it as a club. I taught but didn’t charge. So my experience in this area is slight. However, I’m very interested in this topic.
> 
> That said, what if the problem is simply that most people aren’t interested in the product?  Most people who pick up MA don’t look for a good school. They look for a place they can have fun and feel good about themselves. Actual fighting skills are just an incidental they may or may not acquire.



While there certainly are people who look for that, then all that means is that the martial arts school is attracting them through their marketing. I feel that the main issue would have to be that, because the business model has been stagnant for the last six decades for most styles, schools, and instructors, a revitalization is necessary from the ground up. And sometimes, the best ideas come from outside the industry, especially when the industry's practices have been rendered obsolete by technological progress as well as a high demand for technical expertise in areas beyond martial arts instruction and fundamental business practices.

EDIT: While demand is low for now, I think it's because a lot of martial arts schools market the exact same way, which: 1. limits their reach, 2. reaches non-ideal clientele, and 3. becomes a negative feedback loop for the school which either forces the school to become a McDojo or rolls them out of business.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> i would say for the most part students show up because they like YOU.  they expect to be taught by you. i actually quit a Goju school because most of the classes where taught by who ever was the highest rank person to show up that night.  i felt im paying good money, im not here to learn from a green belt.  i have also had experiences where i or my instructor passed the teaching to another and people stopped coming.
> i also had an issue with another one of my business where i did remodeling and people expected me to be doing all the work and didnt like that i had to pass some work to others.  their expectation was i was the one who was going to do the work.  if a marketing company is going to brand the individual i think it is building the expectation that the student will be learning from you.  this is why i would never brand myself personally and also why i dont want to build my brands reputation on a "style"  other than my own.  if its not my creation its not unique and can be found down the street at the "other"  aikido/ karate school.


I'd say that's true, but not necessarily of the chief instructor. When I returned to NGA after leaving for about a year, the school had changed hands, and I had no real opinion on any of the instructors then teaching (the previous CI had personally taught all of his classes). The days I wanted to attend were taught by an associate instructor (there were at least two others also teaching classes), and I trained under him until he left the school, and I trained directly under the CI. Later (after the school changed hands again), when I was an instructor there, there were three of us who taught classes regularly, besides the CI. We each had our classes we taught (so not just whoever showed up to teach), and our students tended to prefer their primary instructor over any of the others - usually including the CI. People want to come and train under the same person (or people, in some cases), but my experience has been that the CI only has slightly more draw than the other instructors (assuming they are all good instructors), and much of that is probably chalked up to rank and/or how much the other instructors refer and defer to the CI.

You are correct that if you change instructors, there will be some loss of students. There are psychological reasons I can give for that, but they're not really important to the point. That loss can be mitigated some if there's a good hand-off. If classes are co-taught for a while, so students are very used to the other instructor, there's less loss because there's less of a sense of change.

So, yes, there's some risk in branding around an individual. For some of us, that risk is minimal (there's nobody else to teach mine, and "success" for me would be having 20-30 students to teach). For others, it's a risk that can be mitigated and managed, and is is probably less of a risk to the school than simply not having enough students.


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## Gerry Seymour

Michele123 said:


> I don’t have a school. I only ran one very briefly in college and I ran it as a club. I taught but didn’t charge. So my experience in this area is slight. However, I’m very interested in this topic.
> 
> That said, what if the problem is simply that most people aren’t interested in the product?  Most people who pick up MA don’t look for a good school. They look for a place they can have fun and feel good about themselves. Actual fighting skills are just an incidental they may or may not acquire.


I'd say we all - even those looking for a good school - are looking for fun and enjoyment, as we define it. You make a good point. Perhaps part of our problem - those of us teaching for "serious" purposes (and we sometimes take ourselves too seriously) aren't projecting much fun. That's probably true of my marketing, and my classes actually then to be quite fun. Perhaps that's one reason why competition/sport schools seem to have better success at marketing: for people who want to compete, the "fun" is pretty clear.

I think I need to rethink my branding.


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## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> I'd say we all - even those looking for a good school - are looking for fun and enjoyment, as we define it. You make a good point. Perhaps part of our problem - those of us teaching for "serious" purposes (and we sometimes take ourselves too seriously) aren't projecting much fun. That's probably true of my marketing, and my classes actually then to be quite fun. Perhaps that's one reason why competition/sport schools seem to have better success at marketing: for people who want to compete, the "fun" is pretty clear.
> 
> I think I need to rethink my branding.



It's like we went over our phone conversation, the community is a MAJOR aspect of the martial arts, and being able to market the hell outta that? That'll go a long way to getting committed students in the door, and it can start with the impersonal interactions where the student's still in the earlier steps of the funnel that I mentioned.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> It's like we went over our phone conversation, the community is a MAJOR aspect of the martial arts, and being able to market the hell outta that? That'll go a long way to getting committed students in the door, and it can start with the impersonal interactions where the student's still in the earlier steps of the funnel that I mentioned.


Agreed, and not something I've ever put into my marketing. If you looked at my website, you'll see it's pretty serious on the front side (some more "personality" in some of the newer articles, but not much fun, even there). And that doesn't fully match the environment in my classes.


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## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> Agreed, and not something I've ever put into my marketing. If you looked at my website, you'll see it's pretty serious on the front side (some more "personality" in some of the newer articles, but not much fun, even there). And that doesn't fully match the environment in my classes.



The best lessons are learned in the mistakes we make. At least with this lesson in mind, you can take the steps to showcase your school and you more honestly.


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## evan.fedora

Dealing with people who knew absolutely everything.


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## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> While there certainly are people who look for that, then all that means is that the martial arts school is attracting them through their marketing. I feel that the main issue would have to be that, because the business model has been stagnant for the last six decades for most styles, schools, and instructors, a revitalization is necessary from the ground up. And sometimes, the best ideas come from outside the industry, especially when the industry's practices have been rendered obsolete by technological progress as well as a high demand for technical expertise in areas beyond martial arts instruction and fundamental business practices.
> 
> EDIT: While demand is low for now, I think it's because a lot of martial arts schools market the exact same way, which: 1. limits their reach, 2. reaches non-ideal clientele, and 3. becomes a negative feedback loop for the school which either forces the school to become a McDojo or rolls them out of business.


You are saying a lot without a lot of relevant content. What exactly do you mean by " especially when the industry's practices have been rendered obsolete by technological progress as well as a high demand for technical expertise in areas beyond martial arts instruction and fundamental business practices."?


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## martialartsnerd

evan.fedora said:


> Dealing with people who knew absolutely everything.



Hmm, could you perhaps clarify what you mean by that?


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## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> You are saying a lot without a lot of relevant content. What exactly do you mean by " especially when the industry's practices have been rendered obsolete by technological progress as well as a high demand for technical expertise in areas beyond martial arts instruction and fundamental business practices."?



Good question. What I meant is that the online landscape requires technical expertise that either the instructor has to have obtained from it being their day job or something that the instructor can't really get proficient at without sacrificing proficiency in some area (take, for example, SEO and online marketing by way of Adwords... if the instructor can afford that). If the instructor decides to become a one-man show on the business side of things, they'll need to be able to do supremely well on SEO (which is constantly shifting with the algorithms), have web-development skills that won't make their site supremely amateurish, run a system that can keep track of their leads, sales, and revenue, and be their own tech support. While getting help from in-house is an option, that may not always be the BEST option, it just happens to be the best AVAILABLE option.

Modern technology, as well as an ever-changing consumer base that deserves to be better-informed, are demanding a different business model altogether since martial arts is too niche to go with a traditional mass-market model that presents martial arts as a mere commodity. Certain other options exist for advertisement (YouTube PPC comes to mind, which is solid, since video and martial arts would be a better fit than simple text and even pictures, plus it's based on click-through and time-watched rate). The internet can be a harsh mistress, but people who can master the internet can extend their reach, though a martial arts instructor may not have the means to master that, their martial art, AND the business side of martial arts simultaneously. As harsh as it is, instructors need experts for the digital landscape rather than trying to do it all themselves. There's simply way too many hats for them to wear.

EDIT: Other martial arts instructors that have gone this route are hard to find (at least, in the way I envision it), but Wihongi is, in my eyes, a solid example of the kind of martial artist that went the "celebrity authority" route. People outside of the combatives crowd and the Filipino martial arts community aren't gonna be familiar with Wihongi's work, but within his niche for Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, he's thrown in there with the same respect as people give to Inosanto or Marcaida.


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## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> Good question. What I meant is that the online landscape requires technical expertise that either the instructor has to have obtained from it being their day job or something that the instructor can't really get proficient at without sacrificing proficiency in some area (take, for example, SEO and online marketing by way of Adwords... if the instructor can afford that). If the instructor decides to become a one-man show on the business side of things, they'll need to be able to do supremely well on SEO (which is constantly shifting with the algorithms), have web-development skills that won't make their site supremely amateurish, run a system that can keep track of their leads, sales, and revenue, and be their own tech support. While getting help from in-house is an option, that may not always be the BEST option, it just happens to be the best AVAILABLE option.
> 
> Modern technology, as well as an ever-changing consumer base that deserves to be better-informed, are demanding a different business model altogether since martial arts is too niche to go with a traditional mass-market model that presents martial arts as a mere commodity. Certain other options exist for advertisement (YouTube PPC comes to mind, which is solid, since video and martial arts would be a better fit than simple text and even pictures, plus it's based on click-through and time-watched rate). The internet can be a harsh mistress, but people who can master the internet can extend their reach, though a martial arts instructor may not have the means to master that, their martial art, AND the business side of martial arts simultaneously. As harsh as it is, instructors need experts for the digital landscape rather than trying to do it all themselves. There's simply way too many hats for them to wear.
> 
> EDIT: Other martial arts instructors that have gone this route are hard to find (at least, in the way I envision it), but Wihongi is, in my eyes, a solid example of the kind of martial artist that went the "celebrity authority" route. People outside of the combatives crowd and the Filipino martial arts community aren't gonna be familiar with Wihongi's work, but within his niche for Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, he's thrown in there with the same respect as people give to Inosanto or Marcaida.



I agree that SEO has a learning curve but most all webhost/website development companies do a good job with it if you learn the tools which are technically novice to intermediate at best. I do not see PPC coming into play at all except for possibly some crude analytics. Customer/case management software is a must for any client based business. Many couple basic accounting and tracking tools as well. I have seen some very good free platforms. If a person is conversant with Microsoft Office they can do a pretty good job albeit the setup time is considerable. I agree that tech support is a reality for most everyone at some point. 
Do not agree with or never heard MA called a commodity. It just is not. It is a premium service it I had to categorize it.


----------



## JR 137

All of this stuff got me thinking about my former teacher...

He was most successful, numbers-wise, when his dojo was in transition and he was renting space in a gym.  He had a dedicated room with some storage that wasn’t used for anything else.  Yes, he got some students from the gym itself, but the bulk of the new students at that time weren’t gym members.  And they weren’t kids.  They were adults who wanted to learn karate.

His marketing didn’t really change.  The only change was his ads said he was in ABC Sports & Fitness.  Students were allowed a 30 day free membership to the gym (not advertised), and gym members were allowed a free 30 day karate trial (also not advertised).

I think his influx of adult students came from the facilities available.  We had full use of the lockers, showers, and sauna.  Most dojos have a small closet-like changing room; nothing like a full-scale gym typically has.

A while back when I was in between stints in karate I was looking into LA Boxing (before it turned into UFC Gym).  The main reason why I didn’t join, other than the astronomical price was they didn’t have an adequate locker room and no showers.  I didn’t want to drive 45 minutes home nor to work all sweaty and disgusting.  I was about 90% sure I was going to join, even knowing the price, until I realized the shower and changing situation.  That completely killed it.  

Maybe upgrading facilities would attract more adult students?  Maybe prospective students are getting turned off by dojos that may look nice but don’t have anything beyond the training space itself?  Upgrading facilities doesn’t change anything about actual instruction, diminish what’s going on on the floor, etc.  Perhaps also adding modern training equipment like heavy bags would help too.  And god forbid, adding stuff like cardio kickboxing, yoga, pilates, etc. during non-MA hours.  Again, having that stuff doesn’t change anything; in fact it could make the place seem more grown up and serious for adults rather than the stereotypical little ninjas running around dojo.

Back to my former teacher to put things into perspective...
He was leasing a great space and everything was going well.  The building owner’s business expanded (my teacher was renting a portion of a building) and he needed the extra room.  He gave my teacher adequate notice and really worked with him to help him out.  My teacher had a few places in mind that were coming on the market, so he took the gym space as a temporary fix.  He did so well there that he planned on staying permanently.  The problem was the gym owner didn’t know the gym manager was renting the space out.  The manager was pocketing the money.  When the owner caught on, he had the manager arrested.  The owner wanted my teacher to stay and offered to reduce his rent for the inconvenience of it all, but my teacher just wanted a clean break after everything that went down.  He moved into a bigger space with better visibility, but he ended up regretting it because his growth pretty much stopped.  As students left, he couldn’t replace them as easily.  Throughout all the moves, his instruction didn’t change one bit (in a good way).  Odd thing was his children’s enrollment declined at the gym, but his adult membership grew substantially.

Just some food for thought.  Sure, this is only one example and could very well be the exception rather than the rule.  And upgrading facilities is SO MUCH easier said than done.  But if you’re looking to attract an adult base, I think there’s a lot to say for having adult facilities.

Offer more adult stuff, and perhaps more adults will take you seriously?  I don’t know, I’m just throwing that out there.

Edit: by “adult facilities” and “adult stuff” I don’t mean adult as in “adult movies”   Although maybe that’s a way to go with it too


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> I agree that SEO has a learning curve but most all webhost/website development companies do a good job with it if you learn the tools which are technically novice to intermediate at best. I do not see PPC coming into play at all except for possibly some crude analytics. Customer/case management software is a must for any client based business. Many couple basic accounting and tracking tools as well. I have seen some very good free platforms. If a person is conversant with Microsoft Office they can do a pretty good job albeit the setup time is considerable. I agree that tech support is a reality for most everyone at some point.
> Do not agree with or never heard MA called a commodity. It just is not. It is a premium service it I had to categorize it.



While I agree that MA isn't a commodity and that it very much IS a premium service, there are plenty of people outside the MA community that prioritize it so lowly that it gets treated as such. Commoditization, where people treat MA as a commodity (even without explicitly calling it a commodity), is the result of several things, but an ill-defined pricing strategy seems to be a PART of the case, since people who pay, pay attention. One example of this is when my girlfriend signed up for Choy Li Fut and her mother paid an upfront annual of 2500. Suffice it to say, that hole in her mother's wallet, combined with her dropping other extracurriculars to attend martial arts, drove her to attend every day of the week. Besides this, low prices tend to attract the cheap and the uncommitted by the dozen, with the occasional diamond in the rough.

And while you're right about other webhost/web development companies making things easier to the uninitiated, it still requires a learning curve and if the instructor has to budget out their time between the ins and outs of the internet, the business, AND the martial arts, it's not gonna be pretty. As for the point of PPC, you're right in that it doesn't come into play... in a traditional business model. Again, check Pekiti University for what I consider a solid example of a modernized martial arts business. If a martial arts instructor is to gain the kind of leverage that they need to grow their business so that they're not worrying about keeping afloat, though, outsourcing anything besides their specialties is a must. For an example of this, I'd like to point out Davenriche European Martial Artes School. While Steaphen Fick does use a traditional martial arts business model, the takeaway from his outsourcing any duties outside of his specialty allowed him to grow Davenriche to something fairly successful for himself. The age of the one-man army has never existed, simply because it's unsustainable for growth when the instructor has little, if any, breathing room.


----------



## martialartsnerd

JR 137 said:


> All of this stuff got me thinking about my former teacher...
> 
> He was most successful, numbers-wise, when his dojo was in transition and he was renting space in a gym.  He had a dedicated room with some storage that wasn’t used for anything else.  Yes, he got some students from the gym itself, but the bulk of the new students at that time weren’t gym members.  And they weren’t kids.  They were adults who wanted to learn karate.
> 
> His marketing didn’t really change.  The only change was his ads said he was in ABC Sports & Fitness.  Students were allowed a 30 day free membership to the gym (not advertised), and gym members were allowed a free 30 day karate trial (also not advertised).
> 
> I think his influx of adult students came from the facilities available.  We had full use of the lockers, showers, and sauna.  Most dojos have a small closet-like changing room; nothing like a full-scale gym typically has.
> 
> A while back when I was in between stints in karate I was looking into LA Boxing (before it turned into UFC Gym).  The main reason why I didn’t join, other than the astronomical price was they didn’t have an adequate locker room and no showers.  I didn’t want to drive 45 minutes home nor to work all sweaty and disgusting.  I was about 90% sure I was going to join, even knowing the price, until I realized the shower and changing situation.  That completely killed it.
> 
> Maybe upgrading facilities would attract more adult students?  Maybe prospective students are getting turned off by dojos that may look nice but don’t have anything beyond the training space itself?  Upgrading facilities doesn’t change anything about actual instruction, diminish what’s going on on the floor, etc.  Perhaps also adding modern training equipment like heavy bags would help too.  And god forbid, adding stuff like cardio kickboxing, yoga, pilates, etc. during non-MA hours.  Again, having that stuff doesn’t change anything; in fact it could make the place seem more grown up and serious for adults rather than the stereotypical little ninjas running around dojo.
> 
> Back to my former teacher to put things into perspective...
> He was leasing a great space and everything was going well.  The building owner’s business expanded (my teacher was renting a portion of a building) and he needed the extra room.  He gave my teacher adequate notice and really worked with him to help him out.  My teacher had a few places in mind that were coming on the market, so he took the gym space as a temporary fix.  He did so well there that he planned on staying permanently.  The problem was the gym owner didn’t know the gym manager was renting the space out.  The manager was pocketing the money.  When the owner caught on, he had the manager arrested.  The owner wanted my teacher to stay and offered to reduce his rent for the inconvenience of it all, but my teacher just wanted a clean break after everything that went down.  He moved into a bigger space with better visibility, but he ended up regretting it because his growth pretty much stopped.  As students left, he couldn’t replace them as easily.  Throughout all the moves, his instruction didn’t change one bit (in a good way).  Odd thing was his children’s enrollment declined at the gym, but his adult membership grew substantially.
> 
> Just some food for thought.  Sure, this is only one example and could very well be the exception rather than the rule.  And upgrading facilities is SO MUCH easier said than done.  But if you’re looking to attract an adult base, I think there’s a lot to say for having adult facilities.
> 
> Offer more adult stuff, and perhaps more adults will take you seriously?  I don’t know, I’m just throwing that out there.
> 
> Edit: by “adult facilities” and “adult stuff” I don’t mean adult as in “adult movies”   Although maybe that’s a way to go with it too



Facilities can be a part of it, and I agree on the note of the showers at least, but one of the main reasons I feel like the business model needs an overhaul is simply because of scalability as well. There have been many attempts to expand the impact of a martial arts style in the past, through the use of video learning, but most of the time, this was done by the charlatans of the martial arts world (like Chris Pizzo, whose self-defense training is questionable at best). With recent times, even my Balintawak teacher's trying to take things to a more digital front for business reasons (namely low overhead) as well as the amount of reach and convenience the internet provides. And another thing to note is that my Balintawak teacher's in his garage days phase.

As for adult stuff, while I agree on putting in good, modern training equipment (unless if you're going for the very traditional methods in JMA and CMA, like the makiwara), I really don't think it's necessary to add too many bells and whistles. Showers and a locker room for sure, since a training hall IS a gym, but other than the requisite training equipment, I'd rather apply the KISS principle. You raise a good point on the amenities that a number of places don't have, though. I don't ever remember a shower being available back when I trained in aikijujutsu.


----------



## evan.fedora

martialartsnerd said:


> Hmm, could you perhaps clarify what you mean by that?


I want to learn, how much..? this is what I meant. Any person looking to learn something real should ask more than just the price, isn't it?


----------



## pdg

evan.fedora said:


> I want to learn, how much..? this is what I meant. Any person looking to learn something real should ask more than just the price, isn't it?



That's a valid first question though.

If I was looking for instruction, it'd be my first question - if it's beyond my budget there's no point asking anything further.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> All of this stuff got me thinking about my former teacher...
> 
> He was most successful, numbers-wise, when his dojo was in transition and he was renting space in a gym.  He had a dedicated room with some storage that wasn’t used for anything else.  Yes, he got some students from the gym itself, but the bulk of the new students at that time weren’t gym members.  And they weren’t kids.  They were adults who wanted to learn karate.
> 
> His marketing didn’t really change.  The only change was his ads said he was in ABC Sports & Fitness.  Students were allowed a 30 day free membership to the gym (not advertised), and gym members were allowed a free 30 day karate trial (also not advertised).
> 
> I think his influx of adult students came from the facilities available.  We had full use of the lockers, showers, and sauna.  Most dojos have a small closet-like changing room; nothing like a full-scale gym typically has.
> 
> A while back when I was in between stints in karate I was looking into LA Boxing (before it turned into UFC Gym).  The main reason why I didn’t join, other than the astronomical price was they didn’t have an adequate locker room and no showers.  I didn’t want to drive 45 minutes home nor to work all sweaty and disgusting.  I was about 90% sure I was going to join, even knowing the price, until I realized the shower and changing situation.  That completely killed it.
> 
> Maybe upgrading facilities would attract more adult students?  Maybe prospective students are getting turned off by dojos that may look nice but don’t have anything beyond the training space itself?  Upgrading facilities doesn’t change anything about actual instruction, diminish what’s going on on the floor, etc.  Perhaps also adding modern training equipment like heavy bags would help too.  And god forbid, adding stuff like cardio kickboxing, yoga, pilates, etc. during non-MA hours.  Again, having that stuff doesn’t change anything; in fact it could make the place seem more grown up and serious for adults rather than the stereotypical little ninjas running around dojo.
> 
> Back to my former teacher to put things into perspective...
> He was leasing a great space and everything was going well.  The building owner’s business expanded (my teacher was renting a portion of a building) and he needed the extra room.  He gave my teacher adequate notice and really worked with him to help him out.  My teacher had a few places in mind that were coming on the market, so he took the gym space as a temporary fix.  He did so well there that he planned on staying permanently.  The problem was the gym owner didn’t know the gym manager was renting the space out.  The manager was pocketing the money.  When the owner caught on, he had the manager arrested.  The owner wanted my teacher to stay and offered to reduce his rent for the inconvenience of it all, but my teacher just wanted a clean break after everything that went down.  He moved into a bigger space with better visibility, but he ended up regretting it because his growth pretty much stopped.  As students left, he couldn’t replace them as easily.  Throughout all the moves, his instruction didn’t change one bit (in a good way).  Odd thing was his children’s enrollment declined at the gym, but his adult membership grew substantially.
> 
> Just some food for thought.  Sure, this is only one example and could very well be the exception rather than the rule.  And upgrading facilities is SO MUCH easier said than done.  But if you’re looking to attract an adult base, I think there’s a lot to say for having adult facilities.
> 
> Offer more adult stuff, and perhaps more adults will take you seriously?  I don’t know, I’m just throwing that out there.
> 
> Edit: by “adult facilities” and “adult stuff” I don’t mean adult as in “adult movies”   Although maybe that’s a way to go with it too


Every time I think about what I'd want in a space if I had my own, showers and lockers are part of it. In a private space, lockers could even be assigned, so folks can leave sparring gear and stuff that doesn't need cleaning. It's something I notice quickly about schools, too.

I also wonder if being within another space doesn't make visiting less intimidating. Walking into a multi-purpose fitness facility is something more students are already familiar with, so they don't feel awkward coming in the door. I doubt most people would consciously avoid entering a traditional dojo for that reason, but our subconscious ("system 1" thinking) is pretty good at making us do wonky **** we'd never do purposely. I've even thought it might be easier to get MA students if a school also offered some fitness classes (say, kettlebell strength or tabata or whatever is a good fit for students).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

evan.fedora said:


> I want to learn, how much..? this is what I meant. Any person looking to learn something real should ask more than just the price, isn't it?


Maybe. If they know what other questions to ask at that point. Most don't, aside from the schedule. So, they ask the only questions they know: when are classes, and what does it cost. If I walk in, I probably have other questions, but they might be answered best by just watching class a while, so even I might not have much else to ask besides those two questions.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> While I agree that MA isn't a commodity and that it very much IS a premium service, there are plenty of people outside the MA community that prioritize it so lowly that it gets treated as such. Commoditization, where people treat MA as a commodity (even without explicitly calling it a commodity), is the result of several things, but an ill-defined pricing strategy seems to be a PART of the case, since people who pay, pay attention. One example of this is when my girlfriend signed up for Choy Li Fut and her mother paid an upfront annual of 2500. Suffice it to say, that hole in her mother's wallet, combined with her dropping other extracurriculars to attend martial arts, drove her to attend every day of the week. Besides this, low prices tend to attract the cheap and the uncommitted by the dozen, with the occasional diamond in the rough.
> 
> And while you're right about other webhost/web development companies making things easier to the uninitiated, it still requires a learning curve and if the instructor has to budget out their time between the ins and outs of the internet, the business, AND the martial arts, it's not gonna be pretty. As for the point of PPC, you're right in that it doesn't come into play... in a traditional business model. Again, check Pekiti University for what I consider a solid example of a modernized martial arts business. If a martial arts instructor is to gain the kind of leverage that they need to grow their business so that they're not worrying about keeping afloat, though, outsourcing anything besides their specialties is a must. For an example of this, I'd like to point out Davenriche European Martial Artes School. While Steaphen Fick does use a traditional martial arts business model, the takeaway from his outsourcing any duties outside of his specialty allowed him to grow Davenriche to something fairly successful for himself. The age of the one-man army has never existed, simply because it's unsustainable for growth when the instructor has little, if any, breathing room.


In you "model", what do you consider the tipping point where a single instructor is forced to recruit the outside elements you speak of? Is it a number of students, number of schools etc...?


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> Every time I think about what I'd want in a space if I had my own, showers and lockers are part of it. In a private space, lockers could even be assigned, so folks can leave sparring gear and stuff that doesn't need cleaning. It's something I notice quickly about schools, too.
> 
> I also wonder if being within another space doesn't make visiting less intimidating. Walking into a multi-purpose fitness facility is something more students are already familiar with, so they don't feel awkward coming in the door. I doubt most people would consciously avoid entering a traditional dojo for that reason, but our subconscious ("system 1" thinking) is pretty good at making us do wonky **** we'd never do purposely. I've even thought it might be easier to get MA students if a school also offered some fitness classes (say, kettlebell strength or tabata or whatever is a good fit for students).



At one point, I had three Dojangs in three adjoining counties. I suppose part of my thinking back then (1990's) was from my college sports days. I never considered NOT having partitioned dressing rooms and showers, and separate bathrooms.

A new and very large gym opened up in my hometown and asked me if I would have classes there. I set it up as a "feeder" for our Dojangs. Adults (14 and up) only and no uniforms at the gym. We taught none of the traditional lineage matter and did not spar (gym rules) so it was more of a formal exercise class. We talked a lot about what we did at our Dojangs and that spurred a lot of questions. We had a lot of people migrate to the Dojangs. 
I am disconnected now, do you feel group exercises like aerobics back in the 80's and 90's are as popular now as they were then?


----------



## JR 137

martialartsnerd said:


> While I agree that MA isn't a commodity and that it very much IS a premium service, there are plenty of people outside the MA community that prioritize it so lowly that it gets treated as such. Commoditization, where people treat MA as a commodity (even without explicitly calling it a commodity), is the result of several things, but an ill-defined pricing strategy seems to be a PART of the case, since people who pay, pay attention. One example of this is when my girlfriend signed up for Choy Li Fut and her mother paid an upfront annual of 2500. Suffice it to say, that hole in her mother's wallet, combined with her dropping other extracurriculars to attend martial arts, drove her to attend every day of the week. Besides this, low prices tend to attract the cheap and the uncommitted by the dozen, with the occasional diamond in the rough.
> 
> And while you're right about other webhost/web development companies making things easier to the uninitiated, it still requires a learning curve and if the instructor has to budget out their time between the ins and outs of the internet, the business, AND the martial arts, it's not gonna be pretty. As for the point of PPC, you're right in that it doesn't come into play... in a traditional business model. Again, check Pekiti University for what I consider a solid example of a modernized martial arts business. If a martial arts instructor is to gain the kind of leverage that they need to grow their business so that they're not worrying about keeping afloat, though, outsourcing anything besides their specialties is a must. For an example of this, I'd like to point out Davenriche European Martial Artes School. While Steaphen Fick does use a traditional martial arts business model, the takeaway from his outsourcing any duties outside of his specialty allowed him to grow Davenriche to something fairly successful for himself. The age of the one-man army has never existed, simply because it's unsustainable for growth when the instructor has little, if any, breathing room.



While what you say about cheap price attracting not serious students makes sense on paper, that’s definitely not the case where I train.

The dojo I attend charges $55/month for adults and $45 for kids.  No contracts, no hidden fees.  We pay a $25 annual fee to our organization, and colored belt tests average about $50.  Black belt testing is done by our founder at his dojo.  That gets quite expensive (compared to our costs), but his dojo is a few doors down from the Flatiron Building in Manhattan, so we’ve got to keep the cost of him doing business realistic.

$125-$150/month and a 1 year contract are the norm for commercial dojos in my area, and non-commercial dojos typically run about $85-$100 without contracts.

We’re a small school run by a husband and wife team who both had very good day jobs and retired from them within the last 2-3 years.  The dojo was never  their career aspiration nor full time employment goal; it was simply a way to continue training after their direct teacher and the other local teacher in our organization had a falling out and both left our organization.  Had those guys not left, they would’ve most likely enjoyed remaining as assistant instructors there.

The main point is we don’t get a bunch of bargain hunters looking for rock-bottom prices.  In the 3.5 years I’ve been there, we haven’t had any clowns show up.  We’ve got a solid core of dedicated adults. We’re very adult black belt-long term student heavy.    We’ve got our share of kids, and they typically last a while too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> In you "model", what do you consider the tipping point where a single instructor is forced to recruit the outside elements you speak of? Is it a number of students, number of schools etc...?


I don't think there's a single point for that. For full-time instructors who already have some knowledge, they can get by quite a bit longer than a part-time instructor who doesn't have any tech background. The same goes for business background, bookkeeping knowledge, marketing knowledge, etc.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> At one point, I had three Dojangs in three adjoining counties. I suppose part of my thinking back then (1990's) was from my college sports days. I never considered NOT having partitioned dressing rooms and showers, and separate bathrooms.
> 
> A new and very large gym opened up in my hometown and asked me if I would have classes there. I set it up as a "feeder" for our Dojangs. Adults (14 and up) only and no uniforms at the gym. We taught none of the traditional lineage matter and did not spar (gym rules) so it was more of a formal exercise class. We talked a lot about what we did at our Dojangs and that spurred a lot of questions. We had a lot of people migrate to the Dojangs.
> I am disconnected now, do you feel group exercises like aerobics back in the 80's and 90's are as popular now as they were then?


Group exercises dominate the side exercise spaces at a lot of YMCA's and such (to the extent that I can't get class space in many). In the Y's in our area, you can  find tabata (HIIT based), zoomba (dance-based), step aerobics, P90X, POUND (aerobics while beating the air and floor with heavy drum sticks), yoga, and some others I don't know what they are called. I think a something like a group interval-based kettlebell class would be workable, though difficult for new students, so maybe well suited to a MA school environment. 

I think, much like a MA class, people like the community of it. There's pretty much always someone slower, weaker, more flexible, prettier, clumsier, fatter, more muscular, etc. than you in every class. So we all get to feel "normal" within those groups. Most folks, once they get used to a given instructor and group, want to keep coming to that same class. If you change instructors, some folks will leave with them (either to follow them, or just because it doesn't have the same attraction it had).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> While what you say about cheap price attracting not serious students makes sense on paper, that’s definitely not the case where I train.
> 
> The dojo I attend charges $55/month for adults and $45 for kids.  No contracts, no hidden fees.  We pay a $25 annual fee to our organization, and colored belt tests average about $50.  Black belt testing is done by our founder at his dojo.  That gets quite expensive (compared to our costs), but his dojo is a few doors down from the Flatiron Building in Manhattan, so we’ve got to keep the cost of him doing business realistic.
> 
> $125-$150/month and a 1 year contract are the norm for commercial dojos in my area, and non-commercial dojos typically run about $85-$100 without contracts.
> 
> We’re a small school run by a husband and wife team who both had very good day jobs and retired from them within the last 2-3 years.  The dojo was never  their career aspiration nor full time employment goal; it was simply a way to continue training after their direct teacher and the other local teacher in our organization had a falling out and both left our organization.  Had those guys not left, they would’ve most likely enjoyed remaining as assistant instructors there.
> 
> The main point is we don’t get a bunch of bargain hunters looking for rock-bottom prices.  In the 3.5 years I’ve been there, we haven’t had any clowns show up.  We’ve got a solid core of dedicated adults. We’re very adult black belt-long term student heavy.    We’ve got our share of kids, and they typically last a while too.


Agreed. Unless you somehow market yourself as a "low price leader", people aren't attracted primarily by price. And there's a difference between MA (it's an activity) compared to other business ventures, so I don't think price really determines audience quite the same way.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> That's a valid first question though.
> 
> If I was looking for instruction, it'd be my first question - if it's beyond my budget there's no point asking anything further.



Indeed. It's like I said, there's always a professional component to martial arts instruction, and it's best to get money out of the way immediately so that both parties can focus exclusively on the training.


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> In you "model", what do you consider the tipping point where a single instructor is forced to recruit the outside elements you speak of? Is it a number of students, number of schools etc...?



The tipping point is sooner than the suggested. The tipping point is ASAP. Only through outsourcing and delegation can a martial arts instructor even have the room to grow their school. Recruiting the outside elements doesn't have to be a permanent position at all, and can, in fact, be on a short-term contract as needed. But being able to get that outside help instead of soloing everything is a necessity for expansion.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. Unless you somehow market yourself as a "low price leader", people aren't attracted primarily by price. And there's a difference between MA (it's an activity) compared to other business ventures, so I don't think price really determines audience quite the same way.



Hmm, that's fair. What does attract people to the martial arts besides price? In my case, it was all about the combat skills before it became something deeper, and for others, the initial draw lies in the community. For some others, it can be health benefits, and for yet more people, it could be the competitive aspect. What else draws people to our world?


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> Hmm, that's fair. What does attract people to the martial arts besides price? In my case, it was all about the combat skills before it became something deeper, and for others, the initial draw lies in the community. For some others, it can be health benefits, and for yet more people, it could be the competitive aspect. What else draws people to our world?



To expand on this, price does nothing whatsoever to actually attract.

If someone isn't interested, it doesn't matter whether it's free or £5,000/month - you won't be getting them as a student.

All price can ever do is put people off.

I wanted to start because I wanted to. I found out I could afford to do it with the school I chose, so I did.

If I wanted to do it but found out I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't have joined.

Other people may feel I'm paying too much, yet others may feel that it's too cheap to be any good.

MA isn't something that people go and buy because of price.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> To expand on this, price does nothing whatsoever to actually attract.
> 
> If someone isn't interested, it doesn't matter whether it's free or £5,000/month - you won't be getting them as a student.
> 
> All price can ever do is put people off.
> 
> I wanted to start because I wanted to. I found out I could afford to do it with the school I chose, so I did.
> 
> If I wanted to do it but found out I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't have joined.
> 
> Other people may feel I'm paying too much, yet others may feel that it's too cheap to be any good.
> 
> MA isn't something that people go and buy because of price.



That's true with the current business model, but given that I'm trying to change things up here, I'll have to consider every logistical angle as well. While you're right about pricing as it stands now, I still have a mission to accomplish. Seems like there's enough holes in this ship to make sure it never gets out of home port.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Hmm, that's fair. What does attract people to the martial arts besides price? In my case, it was all about the combat skills before it became something deeper, and for others, the initial draw lies in the community. For some others, it can be health benefits, and for yet more people, it could be the competitive aspect. What else draws people to our world?


Let's start with the "besides price" phrase. Price isn't an attraction in MA, and really only is (generally) to establishments with multiple areas of business (department stores are a good example) or to something someone already intends to purchase and considers either a commodity or functionally identical (so someone who wants "karate" might go with the cheaper of two karate schools they view as functionally identical).

In some industries, pricing is a differentiator - so people tend to expect products or services in that industry to have different qualities at different price points. This tends to be true of cars (Kia vs. Mercedes) and life coaching. I'm not sure there's that same perception in MA.

Here are the things I think attract people to MA in general, and specific schools, in no particular order:

fitness
fun
community
sporting competition
learning to defend themselves
the mystique of martial arts (a waning attraction)
training with someone they know
the reputation of a specific school (more prominent in competition or _very_ well-known instructors)
a "professional" feel (in marketing and visiting the school) - this can mean VERY different things to different people
the 'hardness' or 'softness' of a school/style (why some people prefer Kyokushin Karate-do to Aikido, and vice-versa)
personality of the instructor/greeter (once visiting/meeting them)
Here are some items that really mostly only rule out a school (not attractions):

convenience (schedule and location)
price
"not like me" feeling (the sense that the people in the school aren't like you, so you wouldn't fit in) - this might just be the other side of the "community" concept
don't feel welcomed
pressure
don't know what to do when they walk in (an issue with other businesses, as well)


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> Let's start with the "besides price" phrase. Price isn't an attraction in MA, and really only is (generally) to establishments with multiple areas of business (department stores are a good example) or to something someone already intends to purchase and considers either a commodity or functionally identical (so someone who wants "karate" might go with the cheaper of two karate schools they view as functionally identical).
> 
> In some industries, pricing is a differentiator - so people tend to expect products or services in that industry to have different qualities at different price points. This tends to be true of cars (Kia vs. Mercedes) and life coaching. I'm not sure there's that same perception in MA.
> 
> Here are the things I think attract people to MA in general, and specific schools, in no particular order:
> 
> fitness
> fun
> community
> sporting competition
> learning to defend themselves
> the mystique of martial arts (a waning attraction)
> training with someone they know
> the reputation of a specific school (more prominent in competition or _very_ well-known instructors)
> a "professional" feel (in marketing and visiting the school) - this can mean VERY different things to different people
> the 'hardness' or 'softness' of a school/style (why some people prefer Kyokushin Karate-do to Aikido, and vice-versa)
> personality of the instructor/greeter (once visiting/meeting them)
> Here are some items that really mostly only rule out a school (not attractions):
> 
> convenience (schedule and location)
> price
> "not like me" feeling (the sense that the people in the school aren't like you, so you wouldn't fit in) - this might just be the other side of the "community" concept
> don't feel welcomed
> pressure
> don't know what to do when they walk in (an issue with other businesses, as well)



Fair. This just makes me even more curious as to what happens when the business model used in coaching is applied to martial arts instead.


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> That's true with the current business model, but given that I'm trying to change things up here, I'll have to consider every logistical angle as well. While you're right about pricing as it stands now, I still have a mission to accomplish. Seems like there's enough holes in this ship to make sure it never gets out of home port.



I can't see any logical business model whatsoever that could use price (high or low) as an attraction.

However you market it, you can never say "you should do MA because it costs XX".

The only time that would ever work is if you decide that you want MA to be exclusive because of price, so you price it so high that only 10% of the population can afford it and use it as a "look what I can afford" deal.

Is that the type of student anybody really wants?

As I've said, price is important (high enough for the instructor to make a living, low enough for people to afford) but selling MA isn't like selling carrots.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Fair. This just makes me even more curious as to what happens when the business model used in coaching is applied to martial arts instead.


I share your curiosity. I see some bits here and there that seem to indicate it can transfer in some way, in spite of the differences in the consumers.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> I can't see any logical business model whatsoever that could use price (high or low) as an attraction.
> 
> However you market it, you can never say "you should do MA because it costs XX".
> 
> The only time that would ever work is if you decide that you want MA to be exclusive because of price, so you price it so high that only 10% of the population can afford it and use it as a "look what I can afford" deal.
> 
> Is that the type of student anybody really wants?
> 
> As I've said, price is important (high enough for the instructor to make a living, low enough for people to afford) but selling MA isn't like selling carrots.


Consumer decisions are routinely non-logical, PDG. It's pretty well-known among the coaching (life coaching, etc.) community that the lowest-price coach in any group has a hard time finding business. And once you learn to demonstrate value, it can actually be easier to find clients at $1,000+ than under $100. Why? I have no idea, but it works reliably and predictably within constraints.

We see a bit of the same with cars, though it's a different dynamic. A Mercedes is not objectively 2-3 times better than a Toyota. It's arguable whether it's truly better on any objective measure. But the right consumers eagerly pay much more for the Mercedes, and feel they're getting their money's worth. Some of the difference shows up in performance the buyer often never really uses. Some shows in the subjective measure of "luxury". Still more shows up in the subjective "status" area.


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> Consumer decisions are routinely non-logical, PDG. It's pretty well-known among the coaching (life coaching, etc.) community that the lowest-price coach in any group has a hard time finding business. And once you learn to demonstrate value, it can actually be easier to find clients at $1,000+ than under $100. Why? I have no idea, but it works reliably and predictably within constraints.
> 
> We see a bit of the same with cars, though it's a different dynamic. A Mercedes is not objectively 2-3 times better than a Toyota. It's arguable whether it's truly better on any objective measure. But the right consumers eagerly pay much more for the Mercedes, and feel they're getting their money's worth. Some of the difference shows up in performance the buyer often never really uses. Some shows in the subjective measure of "luxury". Still more shows up in the subjective "status" area.



There is very little of that which can be applied to MA though.

If you buy an expensive car for status, it's because people can see you have it. If you buy it for luxury, it's because you find it more comfortable.

I can think of quite a few objective measures that make an average mercedes better than an average toyota - unfortunately the owner isn't usually one of them...

The life coaching thing could have parallels drawn with MA, but not by me - I don't know anything about life coaching (I actually think it's another status type thing anyway, which would instantly explain why the more expensive ones get more business - happy to go more in depth as to why, pm me if interested).

Thing is, buying into MA isn't like buying a car and unless you just want the type of person that wears their belt shopping to show it off, it can't ever be marketed in the same way.

It's a long term lifestyle choice that demands ongoing effort and commitment, I really can't think of anything else similar.

It's not a product you pay for and stick in a bag to take home.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> The tipping point is sooner than the suggested. The tipping point is ASAP. Only through outsourcing and delegation can a martial arts instructor even have the room to grow their school. Recruiting the outside elements doesn't have to be a permanent position at all, and can, in fact, be on a short-term contract as needed. But being able to get that outside help instead of soloing everything is a necessity for expansion.



I know of no one who has the means to do this, but say I did and woke up tomorrow and knew nothing about,,,, nothing would outsourcing and delegation make remotely any sense? A smart startup is a strategic and planned process. If I had the money to throw such an elaborate marketing campaign, I had better have the money to have adequate facilities. Secondly, if I did all this ASAP, how/where am I going to have instructors to handle the influx of people? I think you have a commendable idea. I just do not see the dots connecting. A lot of conjecture, but not a lot of substance. Outsourcing what? Delegating to who if you don't even have a class let alone a staff?


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> Group exercises dominate the side exercise spaces at a lot of YMCA's and such (to the extent that I can't get class space in many). In the Y's in our area, you can  find tabata (HIIT based), zoomba (dance-based), step aerobics, P90X, POUND (aerobics while beating the air and floor with heavy drum sticks), yoga, and some others I don't know what they are called. I think a something like a group interval-based kettlebell class would be workable, though difficult for new students, so maybe well suited to a MA school environment.
> 
> I think, much like a MA class, people like the community of it. There's pretty much always someone slower, weaker, more flexible, prettier, clumsier, fatter, more muscular, etc. than you in every class. So we all get to feel "normal" within those groups. Most folks, once they get used to a given instructor and group, want to keep coming to that same class. If you change instructors, some folks will leave with them (either to follow them, or just because it doesn't have the same attraction it had).


In our first building I leased space to an aerobics class. I agreed to let them put up some cheesy painting and posters on the wall which were a distraction but it paid over half the mortgage payment so I could put up with it. Stayed there for five years and when the real estate economy had the boon of the '90's, made enough profit to build a small four rental strip with our new building on the end. The aerobics class was next door beside a dance school, beside an accountant. Worked out pretty well


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> While what you say about cheap price attracting not serious students makes sense on paper, that’s definitely not the case where I train.
> 
> The dojo I attend charges $55/month for adults and $45 for kids.  No contracts, no hidden fees.  We pay a $25 annual fee to our organization, and colored belt tests average about $50.  Black belt testing is done by our founder at his dojo.  That gets quite expensive (compared to our costs), but his dojo is a few doors down from the Flatiron Building in Manhattan, so we’ve got to keep the cost of him doing business realistic.
> 
> $125-$150/month and a 1 year contract are the norm for commercial dojos in my area, and non-commercial dojos typically run about $85-$100 without contracts.
> 
> We’re a small school run by a husband and wife team who both had very good day jobs and retired from them within the last 2-3 years.  The dojo was never  their career aspiration nor full time employment goal; it was simply a way to continue training after their direct teacher and the other local teacher in our organization had a falling out and both left our organization.  Had those guys not left, they would’ve most likely enjoyed remaining as assistant instructors there.
> 
> The main point is we don’t get a bunch of bargain hunters looking for rock-bottom prices.  In the 3.5 years I’ve been there, we haven’t had any clowns show up.  We’ve got a solid core of dedicated adults. We’re very adult black belt-long term student heavy.    We’ve got our share of kids, and they typically last a while too.


Your dedicated students are the best advertising you can have. Period.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> The tipping point is sooner than the suggested. The tipping point is ASAP. Only through outsourcing and delegation can a martial arts instructor even have the room to grow their school. Recruiting the outside elements doesn't have to be a permanent position at all, and can, in fact, be on a short-term contract as needed. But being able to get that outside help instead of soloing everything is a necessity for expansion.


I would say your plan is 4-5 years after a successful school has opened. That is assuming large scale expansion in the plan.


----------



## JR 137

pdg said:


> I can't see any logical business model whatsoever that could use price (high or low) as an attraction.
> 
> However you market it, you can never say "you should do MA because it costs XX".
> 
> The only time that would ever work is if you decide that you want MA to be exclusive because of price, so you price it so high that only 10% of the population can afford it and use it as a "look what I can afford" deal.
> 
> Is that the type of student anybody really wants?
> 
> As I've said, price is important (high enough for the instructor to make a living, low enough for people to afford) but selling MA isn't like selling carrots.


It really depends on where you live too.  Around here (Albany, NY area), spending more doesn’t have that strong allure as “better.”

When I lived in Westchester County, NY and Stamford, CT (next door to Greenwich, CT), price was seemingly everything.  The more expensive something was, the better it HAD to be.  If you were charging $100 for something everyone else was getting $200 for, your product/service was clearly inferior.  People demanded nothing but the best money could buy, and it was truthfully all just a shell.  All the housewives and hotshot fathers had to one-up each other.  If you sent little Johnny to the $150/month place when there’s a $200/month place right around the corner, you were obviously cutting corners.  The $20/lesson piano teacher obviously wasn’t very good, otherwise he’d be getting $30 like the average guys, and the $50 guy obviously was on another level, otherwise no one else would’ve paid that too.  The more you charged, the better you were, regardless of if you could actually live up to the perception.  

No this isn’t indicative of everywhere, but it definitely happens some places.  If you don’t know Westchester County, NY or Greenwich, CT, think rich suburbs of NYC.  There’s no shortage of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, etc. dealers.  There’s a place to buy any absurdly priced “premium” product or service you could ever want.  In an area like that, a less expensive product or service is clearly a flawed one, and a more expensive product is clearly superior.  And if they know it isn’t actually better, they’ve still got bragging rights, which in quite a few ways is actually more important anyway.

While it’s not to this extent everywhere, there are elements of it everywhere.  Maybe contradictory to what I said about my current area earlier, but my dojo being less than half the price of commercial dojos raises some red flags with some people.  Those people are most likely immediately thinking “why’s it so cheap compared to Master McDojo’s Black Belt Academy? What corners are they cutting?”


----------



## Tony Dismukes

JR 137 said:


> I think his influx of adult students came from the facilities available. We had full use of the lockers, showers, and sauna. Most dojos have a small closet-like changing room; nothing like a full-scale gym typically has.





martialartsnerd said:


> Showers and a locker room for sure,





dvcochran said:


> At one point, I had three Dojangs in three adjoining counties. I suppose part of my thinking back then (1990's) was from my college sports days. I never considered NOT having partitioned dressing rooms and showers, and separate bathrooms.



A bit of a side question here I'd like to get people's input on ...

In 37 years of training a variety of martial arts, I don't think I've ever trained in a school that _did_ have showers available. I may have visited one or two that did, but none of the places I trained at regularly had them.

In many of these classes getting absolutely drenched with sweat was common, so showers could certainly be useful.

My question is (for those who have run a dojo which included shower facilities): what sort of shower to student ratio would be appropriate and how much does that add to the expense of the facilities? If you have 20-30 students finishing up a class at once, then a single shower isn't going to be that helpful. People aren't going to want to wait in line for a shower if they could have driven home in the same time.


----------



## dvcochran

Tony Dismukes said:


> A bit of a side question here I'd like to get people's input on ...
> 
> In 37 years of training a variety of martial arts, I don't think I've ever trained in a school that _did_ have showers available. I may have visited one or two that did, but none of the places I trained at regularly had them.
> 
> In many of these classes getting absolutely drenched with sweat was common, so showers could certainly be useful.
> 
> My question is (for those who have run a dojo which included shower facilities): what sort of shower to student ratio would be appropriate and how much does that add to the expense of the facilities? If you have 20-30 students finishing up a class at once, then a single shower isn't going to be that helpful. People aren't going to want to wait in line for a shower if they could have driven home in the same time.


I had two showers in the men's changing room and one in the women's. It was mostly used for day classes for people going to or back to work. I would estimate the % of students who used them were less than 20%. However, it is a positive seller when people are looking at your Dojo.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> There is very little of that which can be applied to MA though.
> 
> If you buy an expensive car for status, it's because people can see you have it. If you buy it for luxury, it's because you find it more comfortable.
> 
> I can think of quite a few objective measures that make an average mercedes better than an average toyota - unfortunately the owner isn't usually one of them...
> 
> The life coaching thing could have parallels drawn with MA, but not by me - I don't know anything about life coaching (I actually think it's another status type thing anyway, which would instantly explain why the more expensive ones get more business - happy to go more in depth as to why, pm me if interested).
> 
> Thing is, buying into MA isn't like buying a car and unless you just want the type of person that wears their belt shopping to show it off, it can't ever be marketed in the same way.
> 
> It's a long term lifestyle choice that demands ongoing effort and commitment, I really can't think of anything else similar.
> 
> It's not a product you pay for and stick in a bag to take home.


I agree with all of that. My point was simply that people aren’t terribly logical in most of their purchases. Marketing is more or less the art of appealing to the non-logical part of the brain (system 1) to influence that decision.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I know of no one who has the means to do this, but say I did and woke up tomorrow and knew nothing about,,,, nothing would outsourcing and delegation make remotely any sense? A smart startup is a strategic and planned process. If I had the money to throw such an elaborate marketing campaign, I had better have the money to have adequate facilities. Secondly, if I did all this ASAP, how/where am I going to have instructors to handle the influx of people? I think you have a commendable idea. I just do not see the dots connecting. A lot of conjecture, but not a lot of substance. Outsourcing what? Delegating to who if you don't even have a class let alone a staff?


I don’t think we have to fear an overnight flood that would require a bunch of instructors. Realistically, for a new program it would just mean having a few more students on a regular basis, meaning we’d be able to afford (if desired) to pay for more outside expertise, or just have more pocket money. Eventually, it might lead to full classes and a waiting list. At that point, you’d either leave things as-is, raise prices to manage demand, or promote instructors to help manage more classes.


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> I know of no one who has the means to do this, but say I did and woke up tomorrow and knew nothing about,,,, nothing would outsourcing and delegation make remotely any sense? A smart startup is a strategic and planned process. If I had the money to throw such an elaborate marketing campaign, I had better have the money to have adequate facilities. Secondly, if I did all this ASAP, how/where am I going to have instructors to handle the influx of people? I think you have a commendable idea. I just do not see the dots connecting. A lot of conjecture, but not a lot of substance. Outsourcing what? Delegating to who if you don't even have a class let alone a staff?



Simply put, outsourcing things that the instructor doesn't have the time to become proficient at, whatever those skillsets are, whether it's marketing, accounting, etc. You're absolutely right in that a smart startup is a strategic and planned process, which is why I feel that it's necessary to "outsource your weaknesses" to other people who specialize in what you're weak in. And the influx of people is supposed to be handled by the earlier model for marketing that I put forth, with multiple tiered offerings and price point as a way to filter out those who can't commit. PDG raises a good point on the inevitable problems, but it's a risk I'm willing to take rather than leave it hypothetical.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Your dedicated students are the best advertising you can have. Period.


Is that always true?  It doesn’t seem to fit the experience in JR’s post. In all my years, I brought two people into my instructor’s school - both girlfriends (one now my wife). That’s not much benefit over so many years.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I would say your plan is 4-5 years after a successful school has opened. That is assuming large scale expansion in the plan.


Outsourcing marketing (including SEO, etc) needn’t wait until then. Other areas probably ought to.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> Is that always true?  It doesn’t seem to fit the experience in JR’s post. In all my years, I brought two people into my instructor’s school - both girlfriends (one now my wife). That’s not much benefit over so many years.



Yeah, you raise a good point. Sometimes, even your most dedicated students would be absolutely subpar brand ambassadors. I can see them being GREAT brand ambassadors in a competitive circuit if they dominate the competition, and perhaps as assistant instructors, but I myself haven't been able to see this in action so apparently. In fact, the most dedicated martial artists can slip under people's radars and people won't even know that they're talking to someone who's trained in a certain art, in a certain school, under a certain instructor.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Yeah, you raise a good point. Sometimes, even your most dedicated students would be absolutely subpar brand ambassadors. I can see them being GREAT brand ambassadors in a competitive circuit if they dominate the competition, and perhaps as assistant instructors, but I myself haven't been able to see this in action so apparently. In fact, the most dedicated martial artists can slip under people's radars and people won't even know that they're talking to someone who's trained in a certain art, in a certain school, under a certain instructor.


Most of us don’t talk much about our training. And that seems to increase as we progress. I find explaining what I study difficult when talking to someone who doesn’t train, and it can get tedious.


----------



## pdg

gpseymour said:


> I agree with all of that. My point was simply that people aren’t terribly logical in most of their purchases. Marketing is more or less the art of appealing to the non-logical part of the brain (system 1) to influence that decision.



This (and other things in the thread) highlight why I will probably never run my own school.

I cannot bring myself to view MA training as a commodity service and apply the same pricing or marketing psychology.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> This (and other things in the thread) highlight why I will probably never run my own school.
> 
> I cannot bring myself to view MA training as a commodity service and apply the same pricing or marketing psychology.



It's a touch ironic, then, that we both view MA training as anything but a commodity, and arrived at completely different courses of action. I want to be able to proliferate MA in the best way possible, but I also want instructors to be able to quit their day jobs and focus exclusively on MA training, which is why I decided to take a page from the high-ticket coaching business models that exist and apply the marketing and pricing psychology.

Martial arts is a lifestyle choice, which is why I feel like pricing it as such and marketing it as such. The standard martial arts school these days, as gpseymour pointed out to me in a phone conversation, suffers from MASSIVE churn and if this model can help with that by: 1. expanding the school's reach through the digital space, 2. building a community through said digital space, and 3. establishing a system where the most committed can advance further in the ranks and find the means to compensate the knowledge of an instructor monetarily, then I'll consider my mission accomplished and scale the hell out of it.

I agree that, to an extent, you can't really put a dollar amount on martial arts. But given the value that I've gained from the martial arts, I feel it fair that instructors get paid handsomely BECAUSE they have such a large degree of influence on their students' lives.


----------



## martialartsnerd

gpseymour said:


> Most of us don’t talk much about our training. And that seems to increase as we progress. I find explaining what I study difficult when talking to someone who doesn’t train, and it can get tedious.



It really is. And it's not even necessarily quiet confidence either. We're just from a completely different planet than the non-practitioner that it makes communicating a little tiresome.


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> It's a touch ironic, then, that we both view MA training as anything but a commodity, and arrived at completely different courses of action. I want to be able to proliferate MA in the best way possible, but I also want instructors to be able to quit their day jobs and focus exclusively on MA training, which is why I decided to take a page from the high-ticket coaching business models that exist and apply the marketing and pricing psychology.
> 
> Martial arts is a lifestyle choice, which is why I feel like pricing it as such and marketing it as such. The standard martial arts school these days, as gpseymour pointed out to me in a phone conversation, suffers from MASSIVE churn and if this model can help with that by: 1. expanding the school's reach through the digital space, 2. building a community through said digital space, and 3. establishing a system where the most committed can advance further in the ranks and find the means to compensate the knowledge of an instructor monetarily, then I'll consider my mission accomplished and scale the hell out of it.
> 
> I agree that, to an extent, you can't really put a dollar amount on martial arts. But given the value that I've gained from the martial arts, I feel it fair that instructors get paid handsomely BECAUSE they have such a large degree of influence on their students' lives.



The difference is that I would personally detest the notion of pricing people like myself out of the picture.

I would apparently be the type of student that you would rather never see - I turn up a lot, I put in effort, I constantly strive to improve my performance - but I don't have the disposable income to pay hundreds per month, so I'm nowhere near the ideal commercial student...

So, if your model was to become the default, I'd be stuck on the free book with possible instructional video access because of finances - and to be completely honest that, to me, is absolutely against everything the MA 'lifestyle' stands for.

Or just maybe, I'd be in the derided affordable mcdojo down the street and be the one that absolutely destroys the higher paying students in competition 

When all is said and done, who do you want?

If you're taking from the general public (I have to exclude pro athletes, because they're a tiny proportion of the population) then on the whole you can have the ones that will lift you financially, or the ones who will lift you spiritually - it's a hugely rare case where you can get both in one pack.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> Is that always true?  It doesn’t seem to fit the experience in JR’s post. In all my years, I brought two people into my instructor’s school - both girlfriends (one now my wife). That’s not much benefit over so many years.


I think you underestimate the word of mouth that happens between friends outside class and casual conversation.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> The difference is that I would personally detest the notion of pricing people like myself out of the picture.
> 
> I would apparently be the type of student that you would rather never see - I turn up a lot, I put in effort, I constantly strive to improve my performance - but I don't have the disposable income to pay hundreds per month, so I'm nowhere near the ideal commercial student...
> 
> So, if your model was to become the default, I'd be stuck on the free book with possible instructional video access because of finances - and to be completely honest that, to me, is absolutely against everything the MA 'lifestyle' stands for.
> 
> Or just maybe, I'd be in the derided affordable mcdojo down the street and be the one that absolutely destroys the higher paying students in competition
> 
> When all is said and done, who do you want?
> 
> If you're taking from the general public (I have to exclude pro athletes, because they're a tiny proportion of the population) then on the whole you can have the ones that will lift you financially, or the ones who will lift you spiritually - it's a hugely rare case where you can get both in one pack.



If the highest-paying students are getting demolished by a student going to a McDojo, then simply put, it reflects a lack of commitment., which would be surprising from people who pay top dollar. In either case, the argument itself poses what I feel is a false dichotomy. I'll stick to my plan, because if there are people who pay top dollar for a martial arts instructor to train them and they DON'T expect a massive shift in their lives, then damn, they're in for a rude awakening.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I think you underestimate the word of mouth that happens between friends outside class and casual conversation.


If we aren’t talking, I can’t see how word of mouth occurs. It’s important, but isn’t always the factor we wish it were.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> Simply put, outsourcing things that the instructor doesn't have the time to become proficient at, whatever those skillsets are, whether it's marketing, accounting, etc. You're absolutely right in that a smart startup is a strategic and planned process, which is why I feel that it's necessary to "outsource your weaknesses" to other people who specialize in what you're weak in. And the influx of people is supposed to be handled by the earlier model for marketing that I put forth, with multiple tiered offerings and price point as a way to filter out those who can't commit. PDG raises a good point on the inevitable problems, but it's a risk I'm willing to take rather than leave it hypothetical.


The things I mention are some of the proverbial good problems. But an owner is being ignorant with his time and will never grow appreciably if they think they can outsource on a large scale as a sustainable model. You are back to comparing a profit margin to a commodity. It isn't a complex model. You push outsourcing as if an informed instructor doesn't even know what to outsource. @gpseymour mentioned needing SEO at startup; The up and coming tier of instructors have moderate computer skills and website development skills before the graduate high school.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> If the highest-paying students are getting demolished by a student going to a McDojo, then simply put, it reflects a lack of commitment., which would be surprising from people who pay top dollar. In either case, the argument itself poses what I feel is a false dichotomy. I'll stick to my plan, because if there are people who pay top dollar for a martial arts instructor to train them and they DON'T expect a massive shift in their lives, then damn, they're in for a rude awakening.


I think you may be. You have never met a self serving rich person?


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> I think you may be. You have never met a self serving rich person?



Met them? I was taught by one. No shame in getting compensated well for a job well done, but people who are willing to shell out that kinda money for a service tend to be looking to improve themselves if they're looking into coaching, so I don't think it'd be too much of a leap to apply to martial arts instruction.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> It really depends on where you live too.  Around here (Albany, NY area), spending more doesn’t have that strong allure as “better.”
> 
> When I lived in Westchester County, NY and Stamford, CT (next door to Greenwich, CT), price was seemingly everything.  The more expensive something was, the better it HAD to be.  If you were charging $100 for something everyone else was getting $200 for, your product/service was clearly inferior.  People demanded nothing but the best money could buy, and it was truthfully all just a shell.  All the housewives and hotshot fathers had to one-up each other.  If you sent little Johnny to the $150/month place when there’s a $200/month place right around the corner, you were obviously cutting corners.  The $20/lesson piano teacher obviously wasn’t very good, otherwise he’d be getting $30 like the average guys, and the $50 guy obviously was on another level, otherwise no one else would’ve paid that too.  The more you charged, the better you were, regardless of if you could actually live up to the perception.
> 
> No this isn’t indicative of everywhere, but it definitely happens some places.  If you don’t know Westchester County, NY or Greenwich, CT, think rich suburbs of NYC.  There’s no shortage of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, etc. dealers.  There’s a place to buy any absurdly priced “premium” product or service you could ever want.  In an area like that, a less expensive product or service is clearly a flawed one, and a more expensive product is clearly superior.  And if they know it isn’t actually better, they’ve still got bragging rights, which in quite a few ways is actually more important anyway.
> 
> While it’s not to this extent everywhere, there are elements of it everywhere.  Maybe contradictory to what I said about my current area earlier, but my dojo being less than half the price of commercial dojos raises some red flags with some people.  Those people are most likely immediately thinking “why’s it so cheap compared to Master McDojo’s Black Belt Academy? What corners are they cutting?”



The southeast is in an economic boom with an estimated moving (to live) in Nashville alone. We are less than 50 miles from Nashville. One consistent challenge I heard was the monthly price of the local gyms in our area. I was wondering if anyone else hears that in their local areas?


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> it reflects a lack of commitment., which would be surprising from people who pay top dollar



Unfortunately, that's exactly what you usually get.

The very fact they pay more seems to correlate with the level of self entitlement they feel. Like paying more means access to short cuts and special secrets.

You can't honestly believe that only those with fatter wallets are capable of commitment?

In fact, let's put it another way.

The poor person who is paying 10% of their income - are they more or less financially committed than the rich person who is paying 4 times the monthly fees but which only represents <2% of their income?

Top dollar to one person is absolute fantasy money to another is pocket change to another.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> Met them? I was taught by one. No shame in getting compensated well for a job well done, but people who are willing to shell out that kinda money for a service tend to be looking to improve themselves if they're looking into coaching, so I don't think it'd be too much of a leap to apply to martial arts instruction.


Read @pdg 's last quote. Absolutely on the head of the nail.


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> The things I mention are some of the proverbial good problems. But an owner is being ignorant with his time and will never grow appreciably if they think they can outsource on a large scale as a sustainable model. You are back to comparing a profit margin to a commodity. It isn't a complex model. You push outsourcing as if an informed instructor doesn't even know what to outsource. @gpseymour mentioned needing SEO at startup; The up and coming tier of instructors have moderate computer skills and website development skills before the graduate high school.



I push outsourcing because I'd rather have great instructors focusing solely on delivering what they're damn good at, not from a position of ignorance. It's more of saving time for their absolute best, letting them do exactly what they love to do and getting well-compensated for it while leaving the rest to those who are just as specialized in those tasks as the instructor is in delivering quality training.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> Unfortunately, that's exactly what you usually get.
> 
> The very fact they pay more seems to correlate with the level of self entitlement they feel. Like paying more means access to short cuts and special secrets.
> 
> You can't honestly believe that only those with fatter wallets are capable of commitment?
> 
> In fact, let's put it another way.
> 
> The poor person who is paying 10% of their income - are they more or less financially committed than the rich person who is paying 4 times the monthly fees but which only represents <2% of their income?
> 
> Top dollar to one person is absolute fantasy money to another is pocket change to another.



That's a fair point. But that's also why the rest of the tiered offerings exist in the first place. Starting them off with the freebie and then progressing them through the rest, regardless of financial status, is designed to let them know what they're in for if they pursue personal instruction. In this case, the problem is a lack of information and education on what the service entails, and uninformed consumers are the other issue that I wish to tackle with what I'm up to.

EDIT: it's education-based marketing, is what it is. By the time people get to the instructor, the idea is that they should be at least informed enough to figure out that what they're in for is a completely different shift in lifestyle and that it's gonna take work to get to that level. Obviously, it's not perfect, but that just means going back to the drawing board and making it work better every iteration.


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> That's a fair point. But that's also why the rest of the tiered offerings exist in the first place. Starting them off with the freebie and then progressing them through the rest, regardless of financial status, is designed to let them know what they're in for if they pursue personal instruction. In this case, the problem is a lack of information and education on what the service entails, and uninformed consumers are the other issue that I wish to tackle with what I'm up to.



But all that would serve to do is reinforce the social barriers, because what you call 'regardless of financial status' I call 'exclusivity through expense'.

It's no good telling someone they could get better training if they pay more if that payment is more than they can afford or even earn.

They're stuck with 'digital training', never being able to advance in your model because they can't afford to.

In fact, I think it would make the instructor's job harder because the lack of in person training would allow bad habits to be ingrained - if they transition from remote to personal training a lot will be undoing all the crap first.

So, they take their work ethic and thirst for advancement and improvement down the street to someone who realises that money paid doesn't equal commitment or success gained.

You say you don't view MA as a commodity, but with your tiers of access it looks very much like one to me.

Y'know, you can have the base model - or you can upgrade to leather seats and metallic paint...

Might as well just clip a price label on each belt colour and be done.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> But all that would serve to do is reinforce the social barriers, because what you call 'regardless of financial status' I call 'exclusivity through expense'.
> 
> It's no good telling someone they could get better training if they pay more if that payment is more than they can afford or even earn.
> 
> They're stuck with 'digital training', never being able to advance in your model because they can't afford to.
> 
> In fact, I think it would make the instructor's job harder because the lack of in person training would allow bad habits to be ingrained - if they transition from remote to personal training a lot will be undoing all the crap first.
> 
> So, they take their work ethic and thirst for advancement and improvement down the street to someone who realises that money paid doesn't equal commitment or success gained.
> 
> You say you don't view MA as a commodity, but with your tiers of access it looks very much like one to me.
> 
> Y'know, you can have the base model - or you can upgrade to leather seats and metallic paint...
> 
> Might as well just clip a price label on each belt colour and be done.



Why not? The tiers of access are working fairly well for my school, anyway. The only shame is that my instructor is currently overseas, so there's no way for me to test or promote. There's always workarounds to a system like this, and even though I can't say this will fit everything in the martial arts, I can take what works and discard what doesn't.


----------



## pdg

Oh, actually...

There's another thing too.

So there's this place charging what I consider huge amounts, who don't consider me to have sufficient commitment because I can't afford their services.

I'm nothing if not a bit belligerent.

I'll go down the street to the cheaper place that the high income school classes a mcdojo, the one that's surely worse because it's cheaper.

Then I'll work my **** off - much like I already do - but I'll have the extra incentive of being able to show up the rich bunch, of being able to decimate them, of proving they're utterly wrong.

Brilliant, that'll be fun actually - I hope you succeed because then so can I


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> The only shame is that my instructor is currently overseas, so there's no way for me to test or promote



Really?

The entire advancement protocol is reliant on the physical presence of one single person?

What do you study, Bob-fu-jitsu? Is your school motto "best of all, worst of none"?


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> Really?
> 
> The entire advancement protocol is reliant on the physical presence of one single person?
> 
> What do you study, Bob-fu-jitsu? Is your school motto "best of all, worst of none"?



Joke went over my head, but it's Balintawak I study, and my instructor's been implementing a business model similar to what I was discussing. Not completely identical, but very similar.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> Oh, actually...
> 
> There's another thing too.
> 
> So there's this place charging what I consider huge amounts, who don't consider me to have sufficient commitment because I can't afford their services.
> 
> I'm nothing if not a bit belligerent.
> 
> I'll go down the street to the cheaper place that the high income school classes a mcdojo, the one that's surely worse because it's cheaper.
> 
> Then I'll work my **** off - much like I already do - but I'll have the extra incentive of being able to show up the rich bunch, of being able to decimate them, of proving they're utterly wrong.
> 
> Brilliant, that'll be fun actually - I hope you succeed because then so can I



It's the fact that you're thinking in an I-O kinda mentality that's trapping you, and it's understandable that you'd think that way. The idea's more "How can I afford it?" rather than "I can't afford it."

I'm certain someone with your work ethic would have the resourcefulness to be able to undertake instruction from a school that uses the business model I propose. Am I wrong?

EDIT: Besides, I never said it'd be 4 figures per month. There's ways to play around with a payment system that can work beyond just sheer monthly profit margins.


----------



## JR 137

So many different conversations going on in this thread.  But in a good way.

Regarding word of mouth...
I have several friends, ranging from close friends to friends who are a little more than acquaintancess who send their kids to a few different McDojo chains.  I’ve also had parents of my (academic) students who send their kids to those places, and a few people ask me about where I train.

I’ve told them all about where I train, what we do, how it’s different than the McDojos they’re at, and how much it costs.  None of it was initiated by me, none of it was bashing their McDojos, none of it was me trying to sell anyone anything.  In fact, I’ve said a few times that “I don’t have anything to gain by referring you there.”  It was all pleasant conversation.

I’ve talked to family members about it.  Some asked me directly, some indirectly.

I’ve given everyone who’s asked all pertinent information without sounding like a salesman, hounding them, etc.

Not a single person has called, let alone shown up.  I’ve told just about all of them that my CI lets anyone try a few classes for free if they’re interested in joining.

The McDojo goers are quite happy with everything they get, apparently.  It’s more than just a MA school; they do so many other things like movie night, homework club, etc.  Of course none of that’s free and it costs extra in addition to their tuition.  Several of the conversations started with them complaining about the cost and all the nickel and diming.  And telling them about a school that teaches actual karate, is less than half the price, without hidden fees and up sells, and they still refuse to check it out.  Even after telling them my CI would gladly let them take a few classes for free if they’re unsure.

For the kids, it’s all about frills - flashy uniforms, cool patches on their uniforms, impractical learning of weapons like nunchucks, more dancing and acrobatics than actual MA, movie night, field trips to the kids’ indoor parks, etc.  Again, all of that costs extra.  Maybe my word of mouth reference would carry more weight if our dojo did this stuff?

For the adults, all I can assume is they’re in love with the idea of training, but once it’s a reality it’s too much work.  Even if they can try it out free.

Then there’s two guys I used to train with back in the day at my former dojo. One’s a cop who wants to get back into it (our former teacher moved).  He’s more in love with the idea of training again than actually training again, I guess.  The other guy’s teacher just closed her dojo due to her declining health (Parkinson’s).  Our dojo has a relatively similar curriculum, is closer to his house, is cheaper, and he knows of and truly respects my CI.  I told him he should stop by and talk to my CI.  I told him my CI has let people train a handful of times for free if they’re undecided.  7 months later and nothing.  He’s trained a few times with our former teacher who’s about an hour away.  Even our former teacher told him he should definitely check out my dojo; he trained under my current CI when he was coming up through the ranks.  Again, nothing.

Word of mouth, huh?


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> It's the fact that you're thinking in an I-O kinda mentality that's trapping you, and it's understandable that you'd think that way. The idea's more "How can I afford it?" rather than "I can't afford it."
> 
> I'm certain someone with your work ethic would have the resourcefulness to be able to undertake instruction from a school that uses the business model I propose. Am I wrong?
> 
> EDIT: Besides, I never said it'd be 4 figures per month. There's ways to play around with a payment system that can work beyond just sheer monthly profit margins.



Well, you've got to realise something.

I have 2 kids, a wife, a house and a variety of animals to support - anything that is strictly for me comes after all those financially.

If I do some extra work and get some extra money, chances are that'll go towards something for them first, because they are my absolute priority.

There is absolutely nothing about any training regime that would put me into the "how can I afford it" mindset, because it would mean forcing sacrifices upon them for my own selfish ends.

Personal sacrifice is one thing, but expecting those who are dependent upon me to sacrifice for my fun? Not happening. No way.

So the real question is, why would I want to undertake tuition from a school running your business model?


----------



## martialartsnerd

JR 137 said:


> So many different conversations going on in this thread.  But in a good way.
> 
> Regarding word of mouth...
> I have several friends, ranging from close friends to friends who are a little more than acquaintancess who send their kids to a few different McDojo chains.  I’ve also had parents of my (academic) students who send their kids to those places, and a few people ask me about where I train.
> 
> I’ve told them all about where I train, what we do, how it’s different than the McDojos they’re at, and how much it costs.  None of it was initiated by me, none of it was bashing their McDojos, none of it was me trying to sell anyone anything.  In fact, I’ve said a few times that “I don’t have anything to gain by referring you there.”  It was all pleasant conversation.
> 
> I’ve talked to family members about it.  Some asked me directly, some indirectly.
> 
> I’ve given everyone who’s asked all pertinent information without sounding like a salesman, hounding them, etc.
> 
> Not a single person has called, let alone shown up.  I’ve told just about all of them that my CI lets anyone try a few classes for free if they’re interested in joining.
> 
> The McDojo goers are quite happy with everything they get, apparently.  It’s more than just a MA school; they do so many other things like movie night, homework club, etc.  Of course none of that’s free and it costs extra in addition to their tuition.  Several of the conversations started with them complaining about the cost and all the nickel and diming.  And telling them about a school that teaches actual karate, is less than half the price, without hidden fees and up sells, and they still refuse to check it out.  Even after telling them my CI would gladly let them take a few classes for free if they’re unsure.
> 
> For the kids, it’s all about frills - flashy uniforms, cool patches on their uniforms, impractical learning of weapons like nunchucks, more dancing and acrobatics than actual MA, movie night, field trips to the kids’ indoor parks, etc.  Again, all of that costs extra.  Maybe my word of mouth reference would carry more weight if our dojo did this stuff?
> 
> For the adults, all I can assume is they’re in love with the idea of training, but once it’s a reality it’s too much work.  Even if they can try it out free.
> 
> Then there’s two guys I used to train with back in the day at my former dojo. One’s a cop who wants to get back into it (our former teacher moved).  He’s more in love with the idea of training again than actually training again, I guess.  The other guy’s teacher just closed her dojo due to her declining health (Parkinson’s).  Our dojo has a relatively similar curriculum, is closer to his house, is cheaper, and he knows of and truly respects my CI.  I told him he should stop by and talk to my CI.  I told him my CI has let people train a handful of times for free if they’re undecided.  7 months later and nothing.  He’s trained a few times with our former teacher who’s about an hour away.  Even our former teacher told him he should definitely check out my dojo; he trained under my current CI when he was coming up through the ranks.  Again, nothing.
> 
> Word of mouth, huh?



Yeah, it's why I'm hell-bent on becoming the go-to marketer for martial arts instructors. And I'm actually constructing a freebie for instructors to use, too. But there IS a certain amount of salesmanship required, and great salesmanship is its own skill. The plus side? It's actually a fairly quick skill to learn and the principles are fairly easy to integrate to martial arts.

Handling resistance? Common ground there.
Redirecting their objections (attacks)? Common ground there.
Listening their points (observing their attacks)? Common ground there.
Closing them on your offer (delivering the decisive attack)? Common ground there.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> Well, you've got to realise something.
> 
> I have 2 kids, a wife, a house and a variety of animals to support - anything that is strictly for me comes after all those financially.
> 
> If I do some extra work and get some extra money, chances are that'll go towards something for them first, because they are my absolute priority.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing about any training regime that would put me into the "how can I afford it" mindset, because it would mean forcing sacrifices upon them for my own selfish ends.
> 
> Personal sacrifice is one thing, but expecting those who are dependent upon me to sacrifice for my fun? Not happening. No way.
> 
> So the real question is, why would I want to undertake tuition from a school running your business model?



Hmm, I don't know. What would you expect if you did?


----------



## pdg

JR 137 said:


> So many different conversations going on in this thread.  But in a good way.
> 
> Regarding word of mouth...
> I have several friends, ranging from close friends to friends who are a little more than acquaintancess who send their kids to a few different McDojo chains.  I’ve also had parents of my (academic) students who send their kids to those places, and a few people ask me about where I train.
> 
> I’ve told them all about where I train, what we do, how it’s different than the McDojos they’re at, and how much it costs.  None of it was initiated by me, none of it was bashing their McDojos, none of it was me trying to sell anyone anything.  In fact, I’ve said a few times that “I don’t have anything to gain by referring you there.”  It was all pleasant conversation.
> 
> I’ve talked to family members about it.  Some asked me directly, some indirectly.
> 
> I’ve given everyone who’s asked all pertinent information without sounding like a salesman, hounding them, etc.
> 
> Not a single person has called, let alone shown up.  I’ve told just about all of them that my CI lets anyone try a few classes for free if they’re interested in joining.
> 
> The McDojo goers are quite happy with everything they get, apparently.  It’s more than just a MA school; they do so many other things like movie night, homework club, etc.  Of course none of that’s free and it costs extra in addition to their tuition.  Several of the conversations started with them complaining about the cost and all the nickel and diming.  And telling them about a school that teaches actual karate, is less than half the price, without hidden fees and up sells, and they still refuse to check it out.  Even after telling them my CI would gladly let them take a few classes for free if they’re unsure.
> 
> For the kids, it’s all about frills - flashy uniforms, cool patches on their uniforms, impractical learning of weapons like nunchucks, more dancing and acrobatics than actual MA, movie night, field trips to the kids’ indoor parks, etc.  Again, all of that costs extra.  Maybe my word of mouth reference would carry more weight if our dojo did this stuff?
> 
> For the adults, all I can assume is they’re in love with the idea of training, but once it’s a reality it’s too much work.  Even if they can try it out free.
> 
> Then there’s two guys I used to train with back in the day at my former dojo. One’s a cop who wants to get back into it (our former teacher moved).  He’s more in love with the idea of training again than actually training again, I guess.  The other guy’s teacher just closed her dojo due to her declining health (Parkinson’s).  Our dojo has a relatively similar curriculum, is closer to his house, is cheaper, and he knows of and truly respects my CI.  I told him he should stop by and talk to my CI.  I told him my CI has let people train a handful of times for free if they’re undecided.  7 months later and nothing.  He’s trained a few times with our former teacher who’s about an hour away.  Even our former teacher told him he should definitely check out my dojo; he trained under my current CI when he was coming up through the ranks.  Again, nothing.
> 
> Word of mouth, huh?



Word of mouth works very well indeed.

But, it only attracts those who are actually attracted...

Just about all of my work I get through w.o.m. - almost everything is based on recommendations. But someone telling a friend I do a good job isn't going to get me any work if they don't require my services.

Likewise, you telling someone your dojo is great will only work if they _want_ to train, and train in that fashion.

Telling someone who does cardio kickboxing that they can get better sparring at your place is unlikely to attract them if they don't want to spar.


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> Hmm, I don't know. What would you expect if you did?



That's your job as the marketeer to tell me.

How does your business model equate to better training?

Why are 10 high priced push-ups at your place better than the 10 cheap ones I get down the road?

How does me paying more money automatically make me want to spend more time studying and researching?


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> I had two showers in the men's changing room and one in the women's. It was mostly used for day classes for people going to or back to work. I would estimate the % of students who used them were less than 20%. However, it is a positive seller when people are looking at your Dojo.


I really like that last line.  I think that’s where it’s at.  Seeing an actual locker room and actual showers is probably more of an overall, I don’t know, ambience? thing.  It gives the feeling of it being a professional and well run place.

When my former teacher moved into the gym, we hated it at first.  After a few weeks, we loved it.  We weren’t crammed into a changing room the size of a walk-in closet that was overrun by the kids who were getting done with their class before ours started.  We weren’t piling our clothes on the floor and hoping they wouldn’t get trampled on and tripped over by the next group, etc.  We didn’t have to wait in line to use the bathroom and worry about getting yelled at for leaving the toilet seat up (  ) and stuff like that.  I don’t think anyone showered after class, at least no one did consistently because we pretty much all lived a few minutes away.  And we didn’t have mid-day classes at the time.  But knowing we could if we wanted to went a long way. And knowing we could use the whirlpool and sauna did too, even though we didn’t use them either.

I think there’s a lot to be said for walking into a dojo and seeing a clean and ample spaced locker room and showers.  While I’m not hung up on it, it could easily sway the average prospective student.

And it could also sway an outside teacher of different stuff looking for space.  If you’re subletting to a yoga instructor during off hours, they’d probably be more attracted to that too, as it’s something they can in turn offer their students.

But again, is the cost worth it?  If you’re already established and in a good place, is it worth the investment and taking away floor space you may not have?  I guess that’s more of a shopping around for a new place thing.

I’m not a dojo nor other business owner, so I don’t have the answers.  I’m just relaying my previous experience and theories.  All I know for certain is my previous teacher enrolled far more adults during the period he had these amenities.  And it wasn’t intentional/premeditated.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> That's your job as the marketeer to tell me.
> 
> How does your business model equate to better training?
> 
> Why are 10 high priced push-ups at your place better than the 10 cheap ones I get down the road?
> 
> How does me paying more money automatically make me want to spend more time studying and researching?



Good questions all, and I'm quite glad we're having this discussion so that I can actually turn this all into an idea lab, of sorts.

But say you ended up going the high-priced option, and say it was... $2500 for 5 months, structured with three weekly training sessions for 2 hours that you can set, and you'd get more of the instructor's attention because it was you and maybe one other student. (This hypothetical supposes that you went for the personal training). What kind of results do you think you can expect from that?

As for the push-up analogy, if you're the only one doing push-ups versus a dozen others doing push-ups, where's the instructor's focus gonna be?

And as for you paying more money, why wouldn't you? What benefit would it be to make an uninformed purchase when it's a high-ticket purchase?


----------



## JR 137

pdg said:


> Word of mouth works very well indeed.
> 
> But, it only attracts those who are actually attracted...
> 
> Just about all of my work I get through w.o.m. - almost everything is based on recommendations. But someone telling a friend I do a good job isn't going to get me any work if they don't require my services.
> 
> Likewise, you telling someone your dojo is great will only work if they _want_ to train, and train in that fashion.
> 
> Telling someone who does cardio kickboxing that they can get better sparring at your place is unlikely to attract them if they don't want to spar.


Funny thing is they were all interested in one way or another.  They all brought it up.  The only ones I’ve ever brought it up to are my brothers.  They were saying they wanted to get in shape, so I brought up karate as a way.

The rest asked me about where I trained, or how much it costs, or complained about their place, etc. I’m not out there like a Jehovah’s Witness proverbially knocking on people’s doors.  People ask, I tell them.  I don’t get into a long drawn out conversation.  It’s usually a minute or two ‘this is what we do, where we are, and how much it is’ kind of thing.  If they ask more, I answer.  If they don’t, I leave it alone.  I don’t want people telling me where I should go, so I don’t do that to them.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> I really like that last line.  I think that’s where it’s at.  Seeing an actual locker room and actual showers is probably more of an overall, I don’t know, ambience? thing.  It gives the feeling of it being a professional and well run place.
> 
> When my former teacher moved into the gym, we hated it at first.  After a few weeks, we loved it.  We weren’t crammed into a changing room the size of a walk-in closet that was overrun by the kids who were getting done with their class before ours started.  We weren’t piling our clothes on the floor and hoping they wouldn’t get trampled on and tripped over by the next group, etc.  We didn’t have to wait in line to use the bathroom and worry about getting yelled at for leaving the toilet seat up (  ) and stuff like that.  I don’t think anyone showered after class, at least no one did consistently because we pretty much all lived a few minutes away.  And we didn’t have mid-day classes at the time.  But knowing we could if we wanted to went a long way. And knowing we could use the whirlpool and sauna did too, even though we didn’t use them either.
> 
> I think there’s a lot to be said for walking into a dojo and seeing a clean and ample spaced locker room and showers.  While I’m not hung up on it, it could easily sway the average prospective student.
> 
> And it could also sway an outside teacher of different stuff looking for space.  If you’re subletting to a yoga instructor during off hours, they’d probably be more attracted to that too, as it’s someth they can in turn offer their students.
> 
> But again, is the cost worth it?  If you’re already established and in a good place, is it authentic investment and taking away floor space you may not have?  I guess that’s more of a shopping around for a new place thing.
> 
> I’m not a dojo nor other business owner, so I don’t have the answers.  I’m just relaying my previous experience and theories.  All I know for certain is my previous teacher enrolled far more adults during the period he had these amenities.  And it wasn’t intentional/premeditated.



Your question about cost is valid. If I had to choose  between workout space and showers I would take the former. That said, I think every school needs ample changing rooms with lockers. I picked ours up from a public school remodel for free. Paid a families classes for a couple months to re-spray them.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> Funny thing is they were all interested in one way or another.  They all brought it up.  The only ones I’ve ever brought it up to are my brothers.  They were saying they wanted to get in shape, so I brought up karate as a way.
> 
> The rest asked me about where I trained, or how much it costs, or complained about their place, etc. I’m not out there like a Jehovah’s Witness proverbially knocking on people’s doors.  People ask, I tell them.  I don’t get into a long drawn out conversation.  It’s usually a minute or two ‘this is what we do, where we are, and how much it is’ kind of thing.  If they ask more, I answer.  If they don’t, I leave it alone.  I don’t want people telling me where I should go, so I don’t do that to them.


I think of word of mouth more wholly. Even the faces people see at tournaments or demos are word or mouth to me. The satisfaction on their faces is priceless.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> Your question about cost is valid. If I had to choose  between workout space and showers I would take the former. That said, I think every school needs ample changing rooms with lockers. I picked ours up from a public school remodel for free. Paid a families classes for a couple months to re-spray them.


Our changing room is pretty much a walk-in closet. We’ve got hooks on the walls, and 4 adults getting changed at the same time starts to get a bit cramped.  The women’s changing room is identical.  We’ve got one bathroom.  At least everything’s clean and in good repair.  I’d imagine those things have probably turned off a few prospective students though.  People get weird about being all up-close when they’re changing.  I usually do too, but I easily tolerate it because the training’s worth it.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> I think of word of mouth more wholly. Even the faces people see at tournaments or demos are word or mouth to me. The satisfaction on their faces is priceless.


I haven’t thought of that.  We don’t do public demos nor compete outside of a few of us going to NYC (3 hours away) for our organization’s annual tournament.

Is that more of a market presence/visibility thing than pure word of mouth?  Either way, you bring up a good point.


----------



## martialartsnerd

JR 137 said:


> I really like that last line.  I think that’s where it’s at.  Seeing an actual locker room and actual showers is probably more of an overall, I don’t know, ambience? thing.  It gives the feeling of it being a professional and well run place.
> 
> When my former teacher moved into the gym, we hated it at first.  After a few weeks, we loved it.  We weren’t crammed into a changing room the size of a walk-in closet that was overrun by the kids who were getting done with their class before ours started.  We weren’t piling our clothes on the floor and hoping they wouldn’t get trampled on and tripped over by the next group, etc.  We didn’t have to wait in line to use the bathroom and worry about getting yelled at for leaving the toilet seat up (  ) and stuff like that.  I don’t think anyone showered after class, at least no one did consistently because we pretty much all lived a few minutes away.  And we didn’t have mid-day classes at the time.  But knowing we could if we wanted to went a long way. And knowing we could use the whirlpool and sauna did too, even though we didn’t use them either.
> 
> I think there’s a lot to be said for walking into a dojo and seeing a clean and ample spaced locker room and showers.  While I’m not hung up on it, it could easily sway the average prospective student.
> 
> And it could also sway an outside teacher of different stuff looking for space.  If you’re subletting to a yoga instructor during off hours, they’d probably be more attracted to that too, as it’s something they can in turn offer their students.
> 
> But again, is the cost worth it?  If you’re already established and in a good place, is it worth the investment and taking away floor space you may not have?  I guess that’s more of a shopping around for a new place thing.
> 
> I’m not a dojo nor other business owner, so I don’t have the answers.  I’m just relaying my previous experience and theories.  All I know for certain is my previous teacher enrolled far more adults during the period he had these amenities.  And it wasn’t intentional/premeditated.



While options and amenities are never a bad thing, the fact that the students who came came ONLY for martial arts should tell us something, and regardless of whether or not the marketing was intentional, there's something to be said for the POSITIONING of the school, which is interesting. A similar prospect worked for the club I was in in University when we reserved a spot in the school's gym. While I may not know what exactly affected the attraction at your old dojo, it's VERY definitely worth a look for its success rate.


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> I think of word of mouth more wholly. Even the faces people see at tournaments or demos are word or mouth to me. The satisfaction on their faces is priceless.



Word of mouth is undefeatable, but it's not the most predictable, which is why it's not often most businesses' go-to's.


----------



## pdg

martialartsnerd said:


> But say you ended up going the high-priced option, and say it was... $2500 for 5 months, structured with three weekly training sessions for 2 hours that you can set, and you'd get more of the instructor's attention because it was you and maybe one other student. (This hypothetical supposes that you went for the personal training). What kind of results do you think you can expect from that?



Well, that's roughly 4 times what I'm currently paying now (and that's for me and both of my kids).

It's roughly the same hours as I usually do now, and slightly less than I have access to for the fee I pay.

I don't consider myself unique, but I'm not average - I'll explain what I mean...

For patterns (forms/Kata/whatever) the standard practice at my school is the instructor will teach you a few moves in each class and you work on them, it can take weeks to learn a pattern that way. I can't work like that, I research at home and get the whole thing in my head, then the instructor helps with tweaking moves and transitions.

Being micro managed through it wouldn't necessarily make me better at it, or learn it faster.

What about application, say through sparring? If I only have one opponent (the other student) that's only going to prepare me to face them. In my current school I can have 20 different opponents with 20 different methodologies and 20 different skill levels in one night.




From the perspective of me setting the timing - that can surely only work to a limited extent. What if I want to do 6-8 but there's already 2 people in that slot? If I get put with a different instructor then that undermines the premise of your model. If I get told I can only have 4-6 instead, that negates the whole being able to set the timing.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> Well, that's roughly 4 times what I'm currently paying now (and that's for me and both of my kids).
> 
> It's roughly the same hours as I usually do now, and slightly less than I have access to for the fee I pay.
> 
> I don't consider myself unique, but I'm not average - I'll explain what I mean...
> 
> For patterns (forms/Kata/whatever) the standard practice at my school is the instructor will teach you a few moves in each class and you work on them, it can take weeks to learn a pattern that way. I can't work like that, I research at home and get the whole thing in my head, then the instructor helps with tweaking moves and transitions.
> 
> Being micro managed through it wouldn't necessarily make me better at it, or learn it faster.
> 
> What about application, say through sparring? If I only have one opponent (the other student) that's only going to prepare me to face them. In my current school I can have 20 different opponents with 20 different methodologies and 20 different skill levels in one night.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the perspective of me setting the timing - that can surely only work to a limited extent. What if I want to do 6-8 but there's already 2 people in that slot? If I get put with a different instructor then that undermines the premise of your model. If I get told I can only have 4-6 instead, that negates the whole being able to set the timing.



That's a very fair point, especially if students and instructors pre-schedule things in advance. And you're right that diversity of opponents IS a must in martial arts, regardless of which combative purpose they train for, whether that's self-defense or for competition. Definitely something for me to think about, and thank you for taking that opening! I'll have to think of an answer.

EDIT: It wouldn't be a case of being micromanaged. The instructor's job, as anywhere else, is to iron out any bad habits you may have, and it's predominantly personal training, but you're right in that I need to rethink the funnel.


----------



## Michele123

Just a few thoughts. 

Re: word of mouth 
When I joined my current school last November, there were almost no colored belts in the adult class. There were only two and one was preparing for a black belt test. In January that student passed and now there was only one other colored belt besides myself. In April nothing had changed. My Instructor implemented an incentive program for students who have people join and pay at least one month worth of classes. Suddenly there are a bunch of new people. There are now seven adult colored belts (up from two in April) that attend regularly. In that time there are two people who have joined because I recommended it. One was a child and the other an adult. I didn’t wait for the topic to come up. Instead I brought it up to people who I thought it would be fun to be in class together. I spoke to people I genuinely wanted to train with. I only spoke to three adults. One had legitimate health and family issues. One wasn’t interested and one joined. (And we are having a blast together). 

Re: Pricing and commitment
I’ve never been able to afford what MA is worth. I am in fact, currently trading computer skills for classes for my family (I’m building a customized database system for him to keep track of everything and run the business side of things from. I will also be working on his website next). In talking to the other students, it appears I put in far more practice hours on my own than any other adult in class except maybe around testing time. Also, I would NEVER prefer to attend a small class. One of the benefits of MA is everyone learning from one another. Pdg talked about sparring, but in so many other areas too. Hearing a technique explained to another student who is having trouble with an aspect I am not, still increases my understanding.  The comradeship and support students give one another is an amazing motivator. Having the same techniques or drills explained to me by the instructor one night and one of the black belts another night, increases my understanding. I get different aspects from the different people. I am motivated to continue to promote our school so that the class size becomes LARGER, not smaller. I find the model suggested by the OP incredibly distasteful and not one I would ever use were I to become an instructor again someday. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> Well, you've got to realise something.
> 
> I have 2 kids, a wife, a house and a variety of animals to support - anything that is strictly for me comes after all those financially.
> 
> If I do some extra work and get some extra money, chances are that'll go towards something for them first, because they are my absolute priority.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing about any training regime that would put me into the "how can I afford it" mindset, because it would mean forcing sacrifices upon them for my own selfish ends.
> 
> Personal sacrifice is one thing, but expecting those who are dependent upon me to sacrifice for my fun? Not happening. No way.
> 
> So the real question is, why would I want to undertake tuition from a school running your business model?



Got the answer to the question: The personal training would be more for instructor level, since you did bring up a very valid point about training quality in relation to the diversity of students in a class. Still thinking my way through, though.


----------



## martialartsnerd

Hmm, after all this discussion, I'm thinking: book -> membership site -> group classes -> instructor training. Books would contain the drills and basic movements in the style. Membership sites would begin the community building and contain the techniques, and everything after would solidify it. Quality of martial arts training (especially the emphasis of the principles behind the movements rather than just the movements themselves) would have to take heavy emphasis in the group classes (allowing for a more intellectual depth to martial arts training rather than just keeping things in the purely physical realm), and the instructor training would place heavy emphasis on turning those who get to that point into, well, instructors who can then repeat the process to help scale it.


----------



## pdg

I've been pondering too...



martialartsnerd said:


> But say you ended up going the high-priced option, and say it was... $2500 for 5 months, structured with three weekly training sessions for 2 hours



So we're talking 6 hours per week for 5 months right?

Not knowing which 5 months, I'll work on the average of 4.33 weeks per month. So, 21.65 weeks.

Let's call it 21.

126 hours...

$19.84 per hour.

Say two students, round up the income - 40 bucks an hour.

Using current mid market exchange rates, that's £30 per hour (again rounded up a few pennies).

Take out premises costs (or travel if you teach at the client's location), equipment purchase and depreciation, insurances, taxes, overheads such as marketing and administration (healthcare if you're in a country with no NHS)...

Group lessons aren't going to bring you all that much as a company if you're employing someone to teach at them (with all the extra costs associated with employing someone), so to make that part of the business pay reasonably you're going to be looking at like maybe 3 concurrent classes running*.

Really, although $500 a month sounds a lot (far more than I would ever consider), broken down to an hourly rate it's actually cheap.

A quick Google reveals that entry level personal training around here (fitness gym type training) starts at around £45/hour. To you, that's $60~ for one person. That's with lower insurance rates and no healthcare costs...



From my own business calculations, 3 employees kept busy is the minimum amount required to make employing someone financially worthwhile. More info on request.


----------



## dvcochran

martialartsnerd said:


> Word of mouth is undefeatable, but it's not the most predictable, which is why it's not often most businesses' go-to's.


You are very tangible product minded instead of service product minded. Word of mouth in my context has great value for both avenues but in the service world where you are the product the value is much greater. In the inverse, bad word of mouth has a much steeper inclination in damaging reputation. As you say it is undefeatable. Tangible product doesn't have the ability to immediately adjust to the customers needs the way the physical can. An Instructor is part teacher, part philosopher, part psychologist and much more. When that spreads through your students, it is a powerful product and advertising campaign.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> Our changing room is pretty much a walk-in closet. We’ve got hooks on the walls, and 4 adults getting changed at the same time starts to get a bit cramped.  The women’s changing room is identical.  We’ve got one bathroom.  At least everything’s clean and in good repair.  I’d imagine those things have probably turned off a few prospective students though.  People get weird about being all up-close when they’re changing.  I usually do too, but I easily tolerate it because the training’s worth it.


Yea, especially after class when everything is drenched in sweat and three guys are taking their jock strap off at the same time!


----------



## martialartsnerd

dvcochran said:


> You are very tangible product minded instead of service product minded. Word of mouth in my context has great value for both avenues but in the service world where you are the product the value is much greater. In the inverse, bad word of mouth has a much steeper inclination in damaging reputation. As you say it is undefeatable. Tangible product doesn't have the ability to immediately adjust to the customers needs the way the physical can. An Instructor is part teacher, part philosopher, part psychologist and much more. When that spreads through your students, it is a powerful product and advertising campaign.



That's a fair point, and there have been ways to systemize and measure the impact of word of mouth.


----------



## martialartsnerd

pdg said:


> I've been pondering too...
> 
> 
> 
> So we're talking 6 hours per week for 5 months right?
> 
> Not knowing which 5 months, I'll work on the average of 4.33 weeks per month. So, 21.65 weeks.
> 
> Let's call it 21.
> 
> 126 hours...
> 
> $19.84 per hour.
> 
> Say two students, round up the income - 40 bucks an hour.
> 
> Using current mid market exchange rates, that's £30 per hour (again rounded up a few pennies).
> 
> Take out premises costs (or travel if you teach at the client's location), equipment purchase and depreciation, insurances, taxes, overheads such as marketing and administration (healthcare if you're in a country with no NHS)...
> 
> Group lessons aren't going to bring you all that much as a company if you're employing someone to teach at them (with all the extra costs associated with employing someone), so to make that part of the business pay reasonably you're going to be looking at like maybe 3 concurrent classes running*.
> 
> Really, although $500 a month sounds a lot (far more than I would ever consider), broken down to an hourly rate it's actually cheap.
> 
> A quick Google reveals that entry level personal training around here (fitness gym type training) starts at around £45/hour. To you, that's $60~ for one person. That's with lower insurance rates and no healthcare costs...
> 
> 
> 
> From my own business calculations, 3 employees kept busy is the minimum amount required to make employing someone financially worthwhile. More info on request.



A man with his numbers, I respect that. But yes, there's still some things to iron out here, and it's definitely a bigger problem than I initially thought. But damn if I'm gonna back down from solving this.


----------



## pdg

See, here's the thing, I'm not totally against a tiered system just so long as it's tiered correctly.

In fact, I currently subscribe to one...

Here's how it works for me:

If I do one session per week, it'd cost something like £30 per month.

I'm on the 'unlimited' pack, where I can attend every class they hold (9 hours a week) and I pay about £40/month. For me it works out much cheaper per hour, but me being there more doesn't increase their costs because they're already open with the lights on, win/win.

I reckon that if I offered enough cash, the head instructor would agree to private lessons (he may already for all I know, but I've never asked and it's certainly not pushed or even advertised).

The head instructor is only there for a couple of the sessions per week, and access to those is grade restricted.


So, tier it somewhat similar.

First, ditch the online learning. It's a terrible idea and MA is entirely unsuitable for it. Market online, have a club forum, have a social media presence. Even supply online supplemental learning resources (descriptions, demonstrations) just not lessons.

Have a relatively cheap entry package with assistant instructors, like the 1/week I can do.

Have a step up pack, as I'm on.

Maybe split it more so there are a few extra sessions with the head instructor for an extra nominal fee over the step up.

Offer private lessons if you want.



Thing with private lessons though, they're not very lucrative from a business perspective and not necessarily easier on the instructor.

Have a 1hr class with 10 people paying £6 per hour (that's less than the 1/week option I could do). You run through some stuff, answer questions, wander round, observe and teach. People will help each other out (like there's stuff I know that others don't and vice versa).

Now for one on one, you'd have to charge them £60/hr to make the same money (overheads are the same really, you need the same facilities). It's harder work, because they'll soon notice if you're not watching intently.


In summary, the parts I completely disagree with:

Online learning - have a search on this very forum and see the consensus when someone suggests they could learn off YouTube.

Almost compulsory upselling - not pleasant at all. Make every student eligible for the same potential advancement, but maybe at different speeds (we have minimum attendance and time in grade to be eligible to test, so a once per week student cannot physically test as often as multi/week people). Don't try to use every lesson as a feeder to private tuition with restrictions on those who don't comply.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> Yea, especially after class when everything is drenched in sweat and three guys are taking their jock strap off at the same time!


We don’t have air conditioning in our dojo.  It gets pretty rough with the heat and humidity in June-August.

Actually, there’s a small window unit sized air conditioner above the door.  Turning it on 20 minutes before the first class starts doesn’t do much, especially when you’re in the first class.

And the gentleman who teaches on Tuesdays’ motto is “I don’t believe in air conditioning.”  He allows us to wear a Seido t-shirt when the temperature is above 85 rather than the gi top.

Yeah, it gets hot. And a couple guys crammed into the changing room after that isn’t the most pleasant thing.  But it builds character


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> So many different conversations going on in this thread.  But in a good way.
> 
> Regarding word of mouth...
> I have several friends, ranging from close friends to friends who are a little more than acquaintancess who send their kids to a few different McDojo chains.  I’ve also had parents of my (academic) students who send their kids to those places, and a few people ask me about where I train.
> 
> I’ve told them all about where I train, what we do, how it’s different than the McDojos they’re at, and how much it costs.  None of it was initiated by me, none of it was bashing their McDojos, none of it was me trying to sell anyone anything.  In fact, I’ve said a few times that “I don’t have anything to gain by referring you there.”  It was all pleasant conversation.
> 
> I’ve talked to family members about it.  Some asked me directly, some indirectly.
> 
> I’ve given everyone who’s asked all pertinent information without sounding like a salesman, hounding them, etc.
> 
> Not a single person has called, let alone shown up.  I’ve told just about all of them that my CI lets anyone try a few classes for free if they’re interested in joining.
> 
> The McDojo goers are quite happy with everything they get, apparently.  It’s more than just a MA school; they do so many other things like movie night, homework club, etc.  Of course none of that’s free and it costs extra in addition to their tuition.  Several of the conversations started with them complaining about the cost and all the nickel and diming.  And telling them about a school that teaches actual karate, is less than half the price, without hidden fees and up sells, and they still refuse to check it out.  Even after telling them my CI would gladly let them take a few classes for free if they’re unsure.
> 
> For the kids, it’s all about frills - flashy uniforms, cool patches on their uniforms, impractical learning of weapons like nunchucks, more dancing and acrobatics than actual MA, movie night, field trips to the kids’ indoor parks, etc.  Again, all of that costs extra.  Maybe my word of mouth reference would carry more weight if our dojo did this stuff?
> 
> For the adults, all I can assume is they’re in love with the idea of training, but once it’s a reality it’s too much work.  Even if they can try it out free.
> 
> Then there’s two guys I used to train with back in the day at my former dojo. One’s a cop who wants to get back into it (our former teacher moved).  He’s more in love with the idea of training again than actually training again, I guess.  The other guy’s teacher just closed her dojo due to her declining health (Parkinson’s).  Our dojo has a relatively similar curriculum, is closer to his house, is cheaper, and he knows of and truly respects my CI.  I told him he should stop by and talk to my CI.  I told him my CI has let people train a handful of times for free if they’re undecided.  7 months later and nothing.  He’s trained a few times with our former teacher who’s about an hour away.  Even our former teacher told him he should definitely check out my dojo; he trained under my current CI when he was coming up through the ranks.  Again, nothing.
> 
> Word of mouth, huh?


That’s pretty similar to my experience. 

It’s not all that way (I’ve had a student intro a friend, and one couple’s adult daughter joined for a summer), but it’s certainly never been enough IME to fill a class.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Good questions all, and I'm quite glad we're having this discussion so that I can actually turn this all into an idea lab, of sorts.
> 
> But say you ended up going the high-priced option, and say it was... $2500 for 5 months, structured with three weekly training sessions for 2 hours that you can set, and you'd get more of the instructor's attention because it was you and maybe one other student. (This hypothetical supposes that you went for the personal training). What kind of results do you think you can expect from that?
> 
> As for the push-up analogy, if you're the only one doing push-ups versus a dozen others doing push-ups, where's the instructor's focus gonna be?
> 
> And as for you paying more money, why wouldn't you? What benefit would it be to make an uninformed purchase when it's a high-ticket purchase?


There’s a flaw in that model when you port it to MA. In my experience, too-small classes can be as problematic - in different ways - as too-large ones. A range of sparring/drilling partners is better than just one or two.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> See, here's the thing, I'm not totally against a tiered system just so long as it's tiered correctly.
> 
> In fact, I currently subscribe to one...
> 
> Here's how it works for me:
> 
> If I do one session per week, it'd cost something like £30 per month.
> 
> I'm on the 'unlimited' pack, where I can attend every class they hold (9 hours a week) and I pay about £40/month. For me it works out much cheaper per hour, but me being there more doesn't increase their costs because they're already open with the lights on, win/win.
> 
> I reckon that if I offered enough cash, the head instructor would agree to private lessons (he may already for all I know, but I've never asked and it's certainly not pushed or even advertised).
> 
> The head instructor is only there for a couple of the sessions per week, and access to those is grade restricted.
> 
> 
> So, tier it somewhat similar.
> 
> First, ditch the online learning. It's a terrible idea and MA is entirely unsuitable for it. Market online, have a club forum, have a social media presence. Even supply online supplemental learning resources (descriptions, demonstrations) just not lessons.
> 
> Have a relatively cheap entry package with assistant instructors, like the 1/week I can do.
> 
> Have a step up pack, as I'm on.
> 
> Maybe split it more so there are a few extra sessions with the head instructor for an extra nominal fee over the step up.
> 
> Offer private lessons if you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Thing with private lessons though, they're not very lucrative from a business perspective and not necessarily easier on the instructor.
> 
> Have a 1hr class with 10 people paying £6 per hour (that's less than the 1/week option I could do). You run through some stuff, answer questions, wander round, observe and teach. People will help each other out (like there's stuff I know that others don't and vice versa).
> 
> Now for one on one, you'd have to charge them £60/hr to make the same money (overheads are the same really, you need the same facilities). It's harder work, because they'll soon notice if you're not watching intently.
> 
> 
> In summary, the parts I completely disagree with:
> 
> Online learning - have a search on this very forum and see the consensus when someone suggests they could learn off YouTube.
> 
> Almost compulsory upselling - not pleasant at all. Make every student eligible for the same potential advancement, but maybe at different speeds (we have minimum attendance and time in grade to be eligible to test, so a once per week student cannot physically test as often as multi/week people). Don't try to use every lesson as a feeder to private tuition with restrictions on those who don't comply.


I’d almost be willing to flip the model and have the online stuff be premium add-one for someone like you or me who wants to dig in at home.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> That's a very fair point, especially if students and instructors pre-schedule things in advance. And you're right that diversity of opponents IS a must in martial arts, regardless of which combative purpose they train for, whether that's self-defense or for competition. Definitely something for me to think about, and thank you for taking that opening! I'll have to think of an answer.
> 
> EDIT: It wouldn't be a case of being micromanaged. The instructor's job, as anywhere else, is to iron out any bad habits you may have, and it's predominantly personal training, but you're right in that I need to rethink the funnel.


Most of us (unstoppable) have trouble when we have only one or two students at a time. We “fiddle” too much, because we wanna teach. That’s when the micro-managing happens, and that’s definitely how it feels to the student.


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## Gerry Seymour

martialartsnerd said:


> Hmm, after all this discussion, I'm thinking: book -> membership site -> group classes -> instructor training. Books would contain the drills and basic movements in the style. Membership sites would begin the community building and contain the techniques, and everything after would solidify it. Quality of martial arts training (especially the emphasis of the principles behind the movements rather than just the movements themselves) would have to take heavy emphasis in the group classes (allowing for a more intellectual depth to martial arts training rather than just keeping things in the purely physical realm), and the instructor training would place heavy emphasis on turning those who get to that point into, well, instructors who can then repeat the process to help scale it.


I don’t know how you’d get membership sites to work for folks who aren’t training together. The sense of community comes from sharing sweat and grunts of discomfort - the shared struggle. And from the laughs that come with it. That can happen with folks training separately (like on MT), but it requires some common experiences.


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## pdg

gpseymour said:


> I’d almost be willing to flip the model and have the online stuff be premium add-one for someone like you or me who wants to dig in at home.



That'd be a possibility, or like a "members only" section on the website or something.

I learn quite a bit from online resources, but I'd only ever look upon it as supplemental - maybe when the system Ewan McGregor and Scarlet Johansson used on "The Island" becomes available it'll be a different matter...


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## martialartsnerd

That's a fair point on one end, though I've seen online modules work fairly well for others (PTTA comes to mind first and foremost, but Anakserak also had a similar case of this back when Bapak Guru-Besar Dr. Andre GnustGraichen was alive and available, and my old Tai Chi class at the park where Master Ching Lee often used videos for the same purpose), where students would learn the most textbook version of the techniques in use through the videos and have their techniques refined by the instructor, though the latter two were decidedly nonprofit and PTTA is the only one I know of doing so as a business venture. My Balintawak teacher's still trying to get the online stuff truly off the ground, but 'till then, I'll have to wait 'till he gets back from his overseas stuff. Granted, they are the exception, but of the three, PTTA has a widely recognized following in the states, and Master Lee's Tai Chi is well-regarded in CMA in the Bay Area.

Granted, Master Lee's Tai Chi instruction is exceptional because of his local availability when those of us who learn from the videos he posted want to further refine our skills through his personal instruction, and Tuhon Jared Wihongi's skills were already proven. I suppose for an instructor who's fairly new to the scene, I'd need to establish a reputation for the instructor where online materials would be fairly good. @pdg, you're right about the whole compulsory upselling, though. I'll have to work on that. @gpseymour, very good point on community building, but if Tuhon Wihongi can figure this out, then I know who I'll need to get in contact with next.

EDIT: Hmm, that's where the qualification step comes in. If the student DOES show a strong desire for the other steps in the purchasing funnel, only then would the upsells be necessary... hmm, nuances, nuances.


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