# Tai Chi Training is for everyone



## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2014)

From KaiMen

Tai Chi Training is for everyone



> Tai Chi training can seem a strange cousin to other members in the martial clan. Instead of a line of beginners pounding away at heavy bags, a row of immobile people attempt to look like they are heavy bags. Where, normally, students are tossing off strikes with the sound of whip cracks, the Tai Chi group moves with a lethargic reticence as though the air itself were as thick as whipped tofu.


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## Kframe (Jan 30, 2014)

The big issue I have with tai chi is the near impossibility of finding someone here that teaches it as a martial at. There are 2 Tai chi places with in 40 minutes and looking at there website I have no idea if it is the senior dance version or the martial art version.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2014)

That is a rather common issue with anyplace that says it is teaching taijiquan


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## mograph (Jan 31, 2014)

It is a fair generalization that if a school says it offers Chen style, it is probably martial, because there seem to be fewer non-martial Chen schools out there.
Of course, there are good martial Yang Style schools out there, but a lot of non-martial schools say they teach Yang style. So it takes more digging to find the martial ones. 

You should probably visit the schools near you and ask how they teach applications.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 31, 2014)

mograph said:


> It is a fair generalization that if a school says it offers Chen style, it is probably martial, because there seem to be fewer non-martial Chen schools out there.
> Of course, there are good martial Yang Style schools out there, but a lot of non-martial schools say they teach Yang style. So it takes more digging to find the martial ones.
> 
> You should probably visit the schools near you and ask how they teach applications.



No its not fair; name a taiji style and you will find a school that is teaching it only for "health" with no martial side at all...including Chen. Although it is more common to find a school that is teaching Yang style, or at least they think it is Yang style of call it yang style even though it may be 24 form or the 48 form which are not from the Yang family. But there are those that are teaching Yang style and it is also just for health with no martial side at all.


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## mograph (Feb 1, 2014)

Hmm ... I thought that health-only types either didn't have Chen roots or wouldn't try calling it "Chen." I stand corrected! :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2014)

mograph said:


> Hmm ... I thought that health-only types either didn't have Chen roots or wouldn't try calling it "Chen." I stand corrected! :asian:



Nope, its all of them...if you are talking the 5 main families.and to tell you the truth, I am, waiting for Baguazhang to meet the same fate...and I'm not happy about the either

I will say that so far I have yet to hear of the (as some say) the 6th family to have a school that is not martial art based but then Zhaobao is rather rare outside of China. But it to cold have a for health only teacher somewhere. And if you are talking competition only schools, all 6 of them have Modern Wushu forms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2014)

mograph said:


> Hmm ... I thought that health-only types either didn't have Chen roots or wouldn't try calling it "Chen." I stand corrected! :asian:


I have a good friend who teaches Chen Taiji for "100% health".


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## Kframe (Feb 3, 2014)

Here is the school I was tempted to drop in on. http://www.changingdragon.com/ Does anything on that site say if it is martial or not? So far I see a mention of self defense but only briefly. 

 I have always been curious of martial tai chi. I think that since I am moving away from mma asperations and into more practical ones.. I see many side benefits of tai chi.  I feel that physical benefits of the practice, the health stuff so to speak will only help my Taijutsu. If I get to learn a martial art on top of it, hey added bonus. 

Let me know what you guys think about them.


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## Kframe (Feb 4, 2014)

Any thoughts on that school guys? Xue?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 4, 2014)

Without actually watching a class to it is hard to tell. By just looking at the webpage it looks more like health only, however that could also just be a sales pitch to get people in the door and they may actually have an MA side, tell some people taiji is a martial art and they will never show up to a class

If you walk in the door and ask my shifu (who has no webpage by the way) I he teaches marital arts he will likely tell you the same thing his Shifu said...Taiji is for health. Of course his shifu was rather found of Qinna too, as is he. And he is not lying, taiji I for health, weather that is meditative purposes and exercise or for self defense and keeping yourself healthy by not getting hurt.


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## Kframe (Feb 5, 2014)

LOL thanks for the reply. Did you see the PDF link showing there curriculum?  On the right side of the page.. It  has push hands but also mentions some partner drills.


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## colemcm (Feb 5, 2014)

I looked at it and it did not inspire confidence. Over a year before they teach you push hands? Five years before they teach da lu? 

In my opinion, you should keep looking.


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## Kframe (Feb 5, 2014)

Sadly I think there is one more in another city, but it looks more senior dance then anything. It seams that this is the only one in this section of Indiana. There are a few in INDY but that's it. 

I still may drop in. Their may be a reason they have the schedule like that? I was always under the impression that martial progression was excruciatingly slow.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2014)

It looks like there are a few in and around Indianapolis but that is over 100 miles from the one you originally posted

Indiana University T'ai Chi Ch'uan Club
http://www.indiana.edu/~iutaichi/schedule.html

http://iccci-taiji.blogspot.com/
http://indianataichi.com/
Allegedly a Chen school at
615 W. 43rd St.
Indianapolis, IN 46208


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## hunyuan24 (Feb 12, 2014)

I think there is a reason why many schools are teaching Tai chi for health benefits.  The economics just does not work in favor of teaching it as a martial art.

- For every student interested in Tai Chi as a martial art, there are probably one hundred more interested in it as a Yoga substitute. In a bigger picture, the demand for martial arts training is so much smaller.
- A student interested in Tai Chi as a martial art has higher expectations for his teacher's skills.  But is he willing to pay more per class?
- It just takes longer to develop the martial art skills in Tai Chi.  And the chance of a student quitting mid-course is much higher.  The yield of the crop is so much lower.

Having said that, finding a Chen style Tai Chi instructor is probably your best bet.  You should be able to learn Push Hands, Qin Na, and Fajin methods in grappling situation.  You get a lot of martial arts applications already.  If you are good, you can progress to free form sparing - let's just say not a lot of people are good enough to get there.

I am currently studying under Master Wang Feng Ming on the East Coast.  He teaches weekly classes in NJ, NY, and CT, including martial arts applications.  If anyone is interested, here is his website: http://www.worldtaiji.com/.  But obviously, there are many other Chen style Tai Chi Masters out there, if you keep looking.  

Find a good teacher, respect his expertise, stick to your training - and you will get there.

Good luck!


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 23, 2014)

I think another thing people face with Taijiquan is that it's a rare art. Or at least seems to be rare to me. Since it's been spoken of so often, as of late, I've noticed many "Kung-fu" schools slapping it on there name or sight. 

I don't want to be mean...but it's going to sound bad... I'll also night point out any schools, because without actually going to them I have no place making a judgement. (not to mention the fact that I am not a pillar of martial arts excellence myself )

I've found that many of the schools I see who teach "taijiquan" add it on as a "health exercise" to encourage those that can not handle a full and dynamic system. The issue being the teachers, teaching these methods, simply know the sequence of movements and do not themselves do taijiquan. So in many cases, I believe that most are not able to teach it as a combat art, since they dont' really "know" it. I don't think taijiquan is a single form for health on the sight but must be focused on. (After talking with many guys on here such as Xue Sheng refocusing on taijiquan has made a great difference for me)

Even in China (from what I understand) they have "taijiquan" breaks at work, simliar to "tea time" in England. People learn the moving meditation side.

I've studied Shaolin-Do's Taijiquan (and their other internal arts) for 5 years now, and I still suck compared to my sifu. I will say though that he has impressed me with his aptitude and understanding of Taijiquan. Over the years I've learned to sink my weight, move energy from my feet in an explosive manor (fajin, though beginner level) and develop what we call "listening skills". It has greatly improved my sparring and I love what I am learning. If you put me up against another I feel confident in my abilities now, and though I've made leaps and bounds from day one, my sifu will still toss me like I'm made of straw. I'm just over half his age and have probably 90lbs or so on him. However Sifu has been studying for 30 some years, and to obtain his level of ability will take me a great deal more study. My point is, schools that teach the combat applications, and fighting techniques of Taijiquan do exist. They are just few and far between it seems.

I am under the belief that this is because it takes a great deal of time before taijiquan becomes combat effective. This is at least my experience with it.

I've been to numerous other schools and styles. You go in and in the first month you'll be throwing attacks that can hurt other people. In a year I would say most can spar fairly well (this depends on the person and lessons). However with Taijiquan, the 5 years I've spent and I would say I'm at beginner to intermediate level regardless of my sash. Why?

Simply because, breathing and meditation, focus of mind and intent, cultivation, movement, rooting and uprooting all are an art in themselves. I feel it takes another direction then just throwing attacks and works with moving with your opponent to make there movements work against them.

The translation (as I understand it) is Tai Ji Quan = Grand Ultimate Fist

I think it's deserving of this name, but it doesn't become that way for the practitioner over night. I think one could practice for a life time and still improve with it every day. I know this applies to most things, however with taijiquan I find myself still looking and learning new things about the beginner stances and movements to this day :S


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## mograph (Feb 24, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> The translation (as I understand it) is Tai Ji Quan = Grand Ultimate Fist
> 
> I think it's deserving of this name, but it doesn't become that way for the practitioner over night.



Let me intervene right here, if I may. The "fist" is correct, also as a rough indicator of "martial art" or "boxing." But _taiji_ or _tai ji_ comes from Taoist cosmology. *Metaphorically*, it's about the creation of The Myriad Things (basically, the complex world) from an undifferentiated beginning. Remember, this is a metaphor that can be applied to many things.

In other words:
The universe started as _wuji_, which means "no extremes", "no opposites", "no polarities" or "no ultimates." Everything is the same, nothing stands out, nothing moves. This is represented by a circle.
The next state that arose was/is _taiji_, where stuff started happening. This is the constantly-flowing state of yin and yang: symbolized by the familiar black & white swirly image. Since this is the first time that stuff stood out (when opposites appeared), the _taiji_ state can be translated as "grand extremes", "first extremes", "supreme opposites," "most important polarities," and so on.

So the meaning of _ji_ as "ultimate" is not "best"; it's more like "opposite" or "polarity" or "end."

After _taiji_, _yin_ and _yang_ separate or become less fluid; then they combine in pairs, then trigrams to create the _bagua_, and onward. Metaphorically. :asian:


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## mograph (Feb 24, 2014)

Funny: I visited my godson's Karate dojo and found myself in conversation with some of the senior _karateka_. Hearing that they offered Tai Chi, I asked them what style they practiced. The uncertain reply was "Tai Chi .... _Chuan_?"


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 24, 2014)

mograph said:


> Funny: I visited my godson's Karate dojo and found myself in conversation with some of the senior _karateka_. Hearing that they offered Tai Chi, I asked them what style they practiced. The uncertain reply was "Tai Chi .... _Chuan_?"



Likely Beijing 24 form or one of the other competition forms


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## clfsean (Feb 24, 2014)

mograph said:


> Funny: I visited my godson's Karate dojo and found myself in conversation with some of the senior _karateka_. Hearing that they offered Tai Chi, I asked them what style they practiced. The uncertain reply was "Tai Chi .... _Chuan_?"



Brilliant!!!! One of the many reasons I am so picky & absolutely choosy when looking around. Fortunately I'm good to go where I'm at now, but had I heard that I probably would've laughed right in their face without thinking about it.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 24, 2014)

clfsean said:


> Brilliant!!!! One of the many reasons I am so picky & absolutely choosy when looking around. Fortunately I'm good to go where I'm at now, but had I heard that I probably would've laughed right in their face without thinking about it.



I would have said....then its fist style then huh


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## colemcm (Feb 24, 2014)

I once got into it with a guy over a "Tai Qi Chuan" offered by an American Kenpo school and how it probably wasn't legit. The school advertised that they taught Xing Yi as a way of bridging Tai Chi to combat use. . . Because Tai Chi has always depended on Xing Yi to be effective.

To me, nothing quite says, "We're offering this to draw suckers in and take their money.", quite like that does.


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## mograph (Feb 24, 2014)

clfsean said:


> Brilliant!!!! One of the many reasons I am so picky & absolutely choosy when looking around. Fortunately I'm good to go where I'm at now, but had I heard that I probably would've laughed right in their face without thinking about it.


Heh ... well, I grimaced, then mumbled "thanks." 

At one of their demos, I saw a boy do his kata and kiai with such intensity that veins were bursting out of his head. I thought "poor kid: he's going to mess himself up."
The same day, the other students were shouting _"kee-ai." _I don't think that's quite right ... 

Sorry, I digress. This just highlights the fact that if a "combat" martial arts school teaches taijiquan, there's no guarantee that it's _good_ taijiquan.

(... and I'm not bashing karate, of course. I just don't think this was my kind of karate school.)


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 24, 2014)

colemcm said:


> I once got into it with a guy over a "Tai Qi Chuan" offered by an American Kenpo school and how it probably wasn't legit. The school advertised that they taught Xing Yi as a way of bridging Tai Chi to combat use. . . Because Tai Chi has always depended on Xing Yi to be effective.



:lfao:

I once had a school I stopped by to observe a calls tell me "well this is real martial arts, not the taiji you do"


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## colemcm (Feb 24, 2014)

*facepalm*

That attitude is so damned annoying. What's even more unfortunate about it is that they're not entirely wrong. It makes me sad to see what gets passed off as Tai Chi in so many places. Tai Chi seems to have the honor of being, simultaneously, the most AND least practiced martial art.


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## clfsean (Feb 24, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> :lfao:
> 
> I once had a school I stopped by to observe a calls tell me "well this is real martial arts, not the taiji you do"



That's when I'd go "oh goody, let's touch up & go!!"


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 24, 2014)

mograph said:


> Let me intervene right here, if I may. The "fist" is correct, also as a rough indicator of "martial art" or "boxing." But _taiji_ or _tai ji_ comes from Taoist cosmology. *Metaphorically*, it's about the creation of The Myriad Things (basically, the complex world) from an undifferentiated beginning. Remember, this is a metaphor that can be applied to many things.
> 
> In other words:
> The universe started as _wuji_, which means "no extremes", "no opposites", "no polarities" or "no ultimates." Everything is the same, nothing stands out, nothing moves. This is represented by a circle.
> ...



Ah very nice  that's just the way I heard it translated.


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 24, 2014)

colemcm said:


> I once got into it with a guy over a "Tai Qi Chuan" offered by an American Kenpo school and how it probably wasn't legit. The school advertised that they taught Xing Yi as a way of bridging Tai Chi to combat use. . . Because Tai Chi has always depended on Xing Yi to be effective.
> 
> To me, nothing quite says, "We're offering this to draw suckers in and take their money.", quite like that does.



Wow...news to me. Should have asked them what Kenpo depended on to be combat effective 

(that is not a rip on Kenpo, but if a school is advertising an art, then teaching you another to use the first one...well you put the pieces together :S)


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 24, 2014)

mograph said:


> Funny: I visited my godson's Karate dojo and found myself in conversation with some of the senior _karateka_. Hearing that they offered Tai Chi, I asked them what style they practiced. The uncertain reply was "Tai Chi .... _Chuan_?"



Ah, this suggests they have a firm grasp of the art :S


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## hunyuan24 (Mar 17, 2014)

Kframe said:


> Here is the school I was tempted to drop in on. http://www.changingdragon.com/ Does anything on that site say if it is martial or not? So far I see a mention of self defense but only briefly.
> 
> I have always been curious of martial tai chi. I think that since I am moving away from mma asperations and into more practical ones.. I see many side benefits of tai chi.  I feel that physical benefits of the practice, the health stuff so to speak will only help my Taijutsu. If I get to learn a martial art on top of it, hey added bonus.
> 
> Let me know what you guys think about them.



I just re-checked the website and Google'd Ch&#8217;ang Tung Sheng, their Great Grandmaster's name, in Chinese.  Ch&#8217;ang Tung Sheng was actually called King of Shuaijiao (i.e. Chinese grappling/throwing/wrestling) in China.  He combined his wrestling skills into his Ch'ang style Tai Chi, so I would imagine you can learn martial arts applications, especially those related to grappling.

Here is a website dedicated to his wrestling arts

http://www.changshuaijiao.org/eng/

And this page specifically talked about the martial arts application of Chang style Tai Chi.
http://www.changshuaijiao.org/eng/chang_tai_chi.htm

I hope this helps.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2014)

hunyuan24 said:


> the martial arts application of Chang style Tai Chi.


The difference between Chang Taiji and Yang Taiji are:

- The "leg move" has been added in.
- You give before you take.
- To move yourself out of your opponent's moving path, give him plenty of space to fall.
- To keep your friends close but to keep your enemy closer.
- Dynamic rooting is more important than static rooting.
- ...


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 17, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The difference between Chang Taiji and Yang Taiji are:
> 
> - The "leg move" has been added in.
> - You give before you take.
> ...



Yang Taijiquan also has

- To move yourself out of your opponent's moving path, give him plenty of space to fall.
 - To keep your friends close but to keep your enemy closer.
 - Dynamic rooting is more important than static rooting.

As for these

- The "leg move" has been added in.
 - You give before you take.

Explain then and we may have those as well

Heck we even have fakes in Yang to make people do stuff so we can end it because we got tired of playing with them


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## Transk53 (Apr 27, 2014)

Overall I have a clumsy balance that at times can be quite annoying. I can bump in to objects sometimes that quite frankly would seem comedic. Question is this. I have been told that Tai Chi can aid people that are uncoordinated and thus help improve balance. Would this be true? Would the slower movements help the brain train itself to have better coordination?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2014)

All I can say is Taijiquan trained properly can help you with understanding connections within your body and it can also help you become more aware of your center which does help with balance. But it is not a miracle cure for anything, it is not a quick fix and you have to learn it and train it properly


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## Transk53 (May 4, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> All I can say is Taijiquan trained properly can help you with understanding connections within your body and it can also help you become more aware of your center which does help with balance. But it is not a miracle cure for anything, it is not a quick fix and you have to learn it and train it properly



Thanks. There quite a few classes in my area.


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## seasoned (May 4, 2014)

In the traditional circles a lot of dojo supplement with Tai Chi because it helps a student to better understand the inner workings of their main art.


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## Transk53 (May 4, 2014)

seasoned said:


> In the traditional circles a lot of dojo supplement with Tai Chi because it helps a student to better understand the inner workings of their main art.



I am about as traditional as a sausage on a cake, but I am starting to see the martial science behind a lot of it. The whole lifestyle element seems to encompass every art and style.


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## cloud dancing (Sep 28, 2014)

Breat is the  power behind all things.
I began teaching my son as soon as he began to stand up.By 2 years old he understood
the dtan tien breathing.I taught him chi-kung and reget due to my own lack of elf-respect
I neer taught him Hwa Yu style.My first lesson w/Old Man Li was "up goes down."
it's break from a choke hold.Arms come up inside the choke hold,{palms up}turning the hands outwards seperates  the hold .Then grab his arms and pull down into a knee strike.to face He also explained,
if you're having a bad hair day and simply want to KILL HIM-strike both sides of his neck at with fingertips, same time instead of turing the palma from palm up to pushing outwards and with palms down pulling him down into face getting hit by your knee.
strike to kill.Every technique he taught application.Few I ahve forgotten.but always Li taught as a martial art.Once simply using chen ssu chen,pulling silk exercise or hold ball right ,right hand on top,then turn enlarging the ball ,end with left side holding the ball with left hand on top.Once someone upset me so without thought ,I threw him first right then left  using simply chen ssu chen.I had no thought of what tedchnique I was using simply he angered me.
 I was told.Practise  forms and when time comes to use  techniques=it will be automatically done.
When i practise  Chen Man Cheng-Short yang/{modified under yang's supervision}.I visualize how i will use each tehnique.over time my vision of the form has changed. something master Geaorge Mattson, uechi ryu mastre said . "static means not learning nor developing on your own.Tradition is good but each person must adapt his techniques for his  personal useage."Over decades he expects students to have small or large changes in how he taught them.to him this means growth
I mention teaching my son early in life as i read one wushu chop suey do fung wu doo ddo master saying how OMG tai is soo complicated that impossible to Teach children
as for fighting effectiveness-I read how  Hung Gar mastres would not teach tai-chi until student ahd been studying for over 10 years and then he felt was safe to teach tai-chi.many hung gar mastres felt that tai chi was so very deadly that only the most trusted would be allowed to learn.
I once taught for a girlat a local college,I taught one girl "old Woman's kick"
simply an inside of the foot sliding down along the instep ending with stepping on the instep.
the very enxt day she told me how she had almost broken ehr boyfriends foot.She was suprised how efefecive the technique was.I told ehr why do you think I taught you this move?for fun as a joke.i am teaching you how to protect yoruself. girl who had invited me to teach dropped me like a hot rock. golly gee you see I just wanted something'SPIRITUAL"
I did not want you to teach them how to defend themselves.End of teaching that class
I have my own style.it is only 24 techniques as most persons want to enter the school ,be given a super pill and walk out knowing it all.patience is uncommon today. soon my book will be finished and the goal is to give Diabetics.HIV's etc as way to learn w/o attending any school.Book w/LARGE PICTURES,DVD and hypnosis CD's.it will focus on health but with minimal self-defense techniques as part of the training.I get angry with attitude
but but but you've gotta attend classes with someone/NOT.
Anyways {with my diffculty typeing} I 100% agree tai-chi is for everyone.Even with attitude
OMG that's for old people,sure and yoga does not help to limber up,nor does it aid in stretching.and that danged ballasted Raja Yoga from PremRawat/uoutube   WTF does that ahve to do with martial arts training.like being centred and keping awareness of persons thoughts is worthless.6th sense not wanted not needed except when faced with combat situation.I've actually talked down opponents wnating to fight and felt bettre than if I'd actully been forced  to hurt them or get damaged by them.Distraction is deadliest weapon and Li always said when anrgy smile.no warning that you're going to strike or throw them.
where did the wrong idea that taichi takes it's power from shing-I come from.Push changes into a palm strike and grab throw is all in forms.more you practise more power tehre is in your strikes.Internal power remains hidden not shown like weight lifters body.
Always attack with suprise.hit first and win with first strike.Light shines.darkness leaves.


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