# Tekko/Kubaton/Fistload



## Sapphire (Jul 8, 2015)

I'm going to assume that a site with this many users has discussed the use of the weapon named in the title of this thread.

For those of you who don't know (in the crazy event that nobody has brought this up), a tekko, kubaton, or fistload is a self defense tool that's usually the size of a pen, sometimes thicker and heavier, sometimes with a ring and/or a blunt point on it.  There are a variety of different versions of it depending on where you go.  In my 3 minutes of google-fu, I've found tekkos that look like rudimentary brass knuckles and the Chinese deerhorn knives.  There are also fist loads that are designed to look like cats with especially pointed ears, and some look like skulls, meant to be worn on key chains and lanyards so they appear less threatening until someone gets too close.

I have some questions for the people of this site:
1. have you practiced with this type of weapon?
2. do you recommend it for people who want to carry something for self protection?

And if you said "yes" to the first two questions, feel free to share drills and exercises for people to practice.  Also, if you feel that the kubaton isn't a good thing to carry, this thread is also open to discussion on why.


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## drop bear (Jul 8, 2015)

I don't like them. They are a bit better than being unarmed but a bit worse than just about every other weapon that exists.

So a bit less useful than a torch. But a torch is not considered a weapon..

Otherwise you hammer fist people with them.


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## RowdyAz (Jul 8, 2015)

They are illegal in south Australia. However there is actually books and DVDs out on how to use them properly. They can be jammed up under the armpit for controlling, as you said loading your fist and as drop bear said for the hammer fist. I don't know of anyone personally that teaches it's use though. It's primarily used for striking pressure points and nerves.
.


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## Orange Lightning (Jul 8, 2015)

I would certainly recommend them. If it's on something like your keys, you'll always have it on you. You may even have it in your hands when someone might be more likely to try to jump you.

I thought the fighting manual that came with mine was a bit goofy. Lots of instructions on how to hook  and lock joints. Which, sure, I'll go for that if the opportunity presents itself, but primarily, it's a serious striking enabler. Particularly for a person that might not have much training who's going to be happier with a hammer fist type motion anyway.

Where I live, the laws don't really prohibit specific things so much. It's more about intent. A baseball bat is just as legal as a knife or a gun, as long as you don't have any ill intent. Which I think is odd. So as long as I can justify it, I can carry whatever I want.
Anyway, this makes the kubaton a good choice for me. Clearly, I didn't intend to go out ne-er do welling with my "keychain" that helps me find my keys and makes it easier to pull my keys out of a bag full of other stuff.. It's very unimposing. Mine is just a plain straight stick shape without embellishment. Rings or other changes would make my "intent", even though it's obviously self defense, suspicious.

I agree with Drop Bear that hammer fists are the most effective way to use these. Quickest. Hardest. And you really don't lose _that_ much range compared to using it forward.  Certainly not the only way though. I haven't heard of anyone training it specifically, but I would wager that if you're good with your hands or a knife, you'll do fine with a kubaton. Certainly better with special training, but sufficient without it.

Question for the knife pro's on this forum. Adrenaline, shock, and drugs can make a person can seriously dull the effect of pain. In that situation, would the blunt force of a kubaton be better than the knife? Able to deliver serious force without causing shock, and with stopping power? And without the legal issues of lethality?


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## drop bear (Jul 8, 2015)

Better than a knife in that you don't gut a person which can often make a fight more serious than it needs to be.

I did work a place where kubotan style defence was the in thing.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Better than a knife in that you don't gut a person which can often make a fight more serious than it needs to be.



I'm going to disagree with you on this.
If I'm willing to use a weapon, then that means I think my life is in danger. And if I think my life is in danger, then the fight cannot be more serious than that. And I will do anything necessary to end the fight in my favor.


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## drop bear (Jul 9, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm going to disagree with you on this.
> If I'm willing to use a weapon, then that means I think my life is in danger. And if I think my life is in danger, then the fight cannot be more serious than that. And I will do anything necessary to end the fight in my favor.



Up to you with that. I would use a fist load or a club before I would knife a guy. I am not all that keen to be killing people.


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## Buka (Jul 9, 2015)

Back in the day, I think everyone in Martial Arts went through a Kubaton stage. Usually lasted a month or two. I think Martial Artists are more realistic now. Think of all the Martial Artists you know, and everyone in protective services you know. How many carry a Kubaton?


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## Sapphire (Jul 10, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I don't like them. They are a bit better than being unarmed but a bit worse than just about every other weapon that exists.
> 
> So a bit less useful than a torch. But a torch is not considered a weapon..
> 
> Otherwise you hammer fist people with them.



Do you generally encourage carrying a weapon?  If so, what weapon would you encourage?  For the sake of discussion, let's leave out "guns" because their legality varies from state to state.



RowdyAz said:


> They are illegal in south Australia. However there is actually books and DVDs out on how to use them properly. They can be jammed up under the armpit for controlling, as you said loading your fist and as drop bear said for the hammer fist. I don't know of anyone personally that teaches it's use though. It's primarily used for striking pressure points and nerves.
> .



Interesting.  A 9-inch piece of wood with a brass end cap is illegal.  I take it there's a lot of criminal activity down there then?



Orange Lightning said:


> I would certainly recommend them. If it's on something like your keys, you'll always have it on you. You may even have it in your hands when someone might be more likely to try to jump you.



I had a discussion with an FMA instructor who said that the worst place for a kubaton is your keys (alongside, the worst improvised self defense weapon is your keys) because of the risk of disarm.  If you get disarmed and you're wielding your keys or a bauble attached to your keys, and they get knocked out of your hand, then you lose your weapon AND your means of escape on the same beat.  I agree with this instructor, personally.  Especially at a "women's self defense" standpoint because unless the woman is training regularly, she's going to take a 1-afternoon, 2 hour long self defense class, but the second someone attacks her, the adrenaline will surge and she'll shake too much to even properly grip the keys and/or kubaton.



Orange Lightning said:


> I thought the fighting manual that came with mine was a bit goofy. Lots of instructions on how to hook  and lock joints. Which, sure, I'll go for that if the opportunity presents itself, but primarily, it's a serious striking enabler. Particularly for a person that might not have much training who's going to be happier with a hammer fist type motion anyway.



I think it has a lot more to do with training.  Mainly, if you're in an FMA school that practices joint manipulation with a knife, and obviously you'd be practicing with a wooden or rubber knife on your classmate, joint manipulation with a kubaton should be easy.  Someone who isn't training all the time however, is definitely going to wield the kubaton like a very small baton, though, definitely.  I actually tell people who ask what it is that it's simply a trinket that I like, but if the need arises, I'll use it to shatter the window of a car if I find a child suffering from heat exhaustion.



Orange Lightning said:


> Where I live, the laws don't really prohibit specific things so much. It's more about intent. A baseball bat is just as legal as a knife or a gun, as long as you don't have any ill intent. Which I think is odd. So as long as I can justify it, I can carry whatever I want.
> Anyway, this makes the kubaton a good choice for me. Clearly, I didn't intend to go out ne-er do welling with my "keychain" that helps me find my keys and makes it easier to pull my keys out of a bag full of other stuff.. It's very unimposing. Mine is just a plain straight stick shape without embellishment. Rings or other changes would make my "intent", even though it's obviously self defense, suspicious.



Like I said earlier, I carry it as a trinket, in my pocket, mostly because the ring broke off of mine because I twirled it on my finger too often.   Your laws sound much like Upstate NY's knife laws.  I can carry a knife with a blade of up to 4" in length, but there's so much vague "intent" legalspeak mixed in, where I'm convinced that if a police officer wanted to, he could simply take my knife because he wanted a new knife.  Of course, I have no intentions of carrying a sheath knife because it has a suggestion of menace to it.  I don't want people thinking they should keep their distance from me.  I get enough complaints about carrying a folding pocket knife as it is.



Orange Lightning said:


> I agree with Drop Bear that hammer fists are the most effective way to use these. Quickest. Hardest. And you really don't lose _that_ much range compared to using it forward.  Certainly not the only way though. I haven't heard of anyone training it specifically, but I would wager that if you're good with your hands or a knife, you'll do fine with a kubaton. Certainly better with special training, but sufficient without it.
> 
> Question for the knife pro's on this forum. Adrenaline, shock, and drugs can make a person can seriously dull the effect of pain. In that situation, would the blunt force of a kubaton be better than the knife? Able to deliver serious force without causing shock, and with stopping power? And without the legal issues of lethality?



In shape it's similar to a knife, so you're definitely right -- it would work well in the hands of a knife wielder.  Figure, when me and my classmates drill knife fighting/knife defense, we use pieces of rattan about 9 inches in length, which is essentially what a kubaton is anyways.  When I practice with my kubaton at home, it's in my left hand in ice pick grip/downwards, though when I want to "shadowbox" my knife fighting, I put it in my right hand, held upwards/sword grip.

Also, the people I've spoken to who have dealt with drug addicts on the move have said that they've seen people have their jaws broken off, legs broken, and more, still attempting to attack people.  Drugs are scary things.  I doubt anything more than an actual *knockout hit* or choke hold will do you any good against someone like that.  When there was a situation with "bath salts" sweeping New York State, I convinced my mother to keep a small aluminum baseball bat by the door, after hearing that a man who had done bath salts had taken six bullets to the torso and kept going, as if nothing had happened.



Dirty Dog said:


> I'm going to disagree with you on this.
> If I'm willing to use a weapon, then that means I think my life is in danger. And if I think my life is in danger, then the fight cannot be more serious than that. And I will do anything necessary to end the fight in my favor.



I think you're right about this.  In the event that you've drawn a weapon, even in defense where I live, you could be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.  Also, the whole conundrum of "appropriate force for the situation" leaves you in a gray area that would keep you from wielding a weapon unless the need truly arose, such as with multiple opponents or if they've already drawn weapons themselves.



Buka said:


> Back in the day, I think everyone in Martial Arts went through a Kubaton stage. Usually lasted a month or two. I think Martial Artists are more realistic now. Think of all the Martial Artists you know, and everyone in protective services you know. How many carry a Kubaton?



Only because martial arts "masters" are much more trusting in their own skill.  I see carrying a weapon as a means of "insurance."  An example would be the difference between your MA instructor who has lived in bad neighborhoods, been jumped, been mugged, been assaulted at a party because someone got too drunk, and so on and so forth.  They've since those days trained to plan for them, and therefore have "seen it all."  A student of beginner to intermediate level would however be better off carrying a kubaton or a small knife, or simply traveling in a group, only because they _don't know_ what to expect, and perhaps _haven't trained _that much, and thus _need_ something on them as back up.


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## RowdyAz (Jul 10, 2015)

A pen gets results. For example not long ago at the local pub someone got a pencil in the neck, you just have to be creative.


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## drop bear (Jul 10, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> Do you generally encourage carrying a weapon? If so, what weapon would you encourage? For the sake of discussion, let's leave out "guns" because their legality varies from state to state.



Cops seem to manage with tazers,mace and bats.

I like a d cell torch. Because the night is dark and full of terrors.


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## Orange Lightning (Jul 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Cops seem to manage with tazers,mace and bats.
> 
> I like a d cell torch. Because the night is dark and full of terrors.



Tazers and good mace are illegal where I live too. Bats of questionable "intent".

I was thinking about this yesterday though. Do police carry knives?


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## Orange Lightning (Jul 11, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> I had a discussion with an FMA instructor who said that the worst place for a kubaton is your keys (alongside, the worst improvised self defense weapon is your keys) because of the risk of disarm. If you get disarmed and you're wielding your keys or a bauble attached to your keys, and they get knocked out of your hand, then you lose your weapon AND your means of escape on the same beat. I agree with this instructor, personally. Especially at a "women's self defense" standpoint because unless the woman is training regularly, she's going to take a 1-afternoon, 2 hour long self defense class, but the second someone attacks her, the adrenaline will surge and she'll shake too much to even properly grip the keys and/or kubaton.



Hmm. Hadn't considered this double disarming of weapon and escape. I'm a little skeptic about the second point though. Shouldn't it already be in your hand? Not in a fighting way, but how hard would that be to switch to if you were already holding it? Perhaps I'm underestimating the twitch you'll experience in fine motions.



Sapphire said:


> I think it has a lot more to do with training. Mainly, if you're in an FMA school that practices joint manipulation with a knife, and obviously you'd be practicing with a wooden or rubber knife on your classmate, joint manipulation with a kubaton should be easy. Someone who isn't training all the time however, is definitely going to wield the kubaton like a very small baton, though, definitely. I actually tell people who ask what it is that it's simply a trinket that I like, but if the need arises, I'll use it to shatter the window of a car if I find a child suffering from heat exhaustion.



Very much agreed.



Sapphire said:


> In shape it's similar to a knife, so you're definitely right -- it would work well in the hands of a knife wielder. Figure, when me and my classmates drill knife fighting/knife defense, we use pieces of rattan about 9 inches in length, which is essentially what a kubaton is anyways. When I practice with my kubaton at home, it's in my left hand in ice pick grip/downwards, though when I want to "shadowbox" my knife fighting, I put it in my right hand, held upwards/sword grip.
> 
> Also, the people I've spoken to who have dealt with drug addicts on the move have said that they've seen people have their jaws broken off, legs broken, and more, still attempting to attack people. Drugs are scary things. I doubt anything more than an actual *knockout hit* or choke hold will do you any good against someone like that. When there was a situation with "bath salts" sweeping New York State, I convinced my mother to keep a small aluminum baseball bat by the door, after hearing that a man who had done bath salts had taken six bullets to the torso and kept going, as if nothing had happened.



I've heard and read about plenty of examples where people kept chugging from drugs and adrenaline after being shot multiple times. Read one about a guy who was literally stabbed in the face (victim), and he didn't feel pain until he removed the threat. So the need becomes complete disabling instead of hurting. 
On some level though, it makes sense to me that blunt force will be felt more than cutting. I can get a nasty cut and not feel it for a while without any influences. Blunt pain? Not so much. Obviously, cutting is generally more lethal. But do you think it's any less effective at stopping an attacker _immediately?_


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## drop bear (Jul 12, 2015)

Orange Lightning said:


> Tazers and good mace are illegal where I live too. Bats of questionable "intent".
> 
> I was thinking about this yesterday though. Do police carry knives?



Not  knives for self defence.


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## Danny T (Jul 12, 2015)

I carry a tactical pen, a tactical flash light, a folder, and a fixed blade.
The pen can be utilized as a pen, a kubaton, a loaded fist.
The flash light can be utilized as a light, a kubaton, a loaded fist.
The folder prior to being opened can be utilized as a kubaton or a loaded fist. When opened the same but with a edge.
Same with the fixed blade.


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## pgsmith (Jul 13, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> Only because martial arts "masters" are much more trusting in their own skill.  I see carrying a weapon as a means of "insurance."  An example would be the difference between your MA instructor who has lived in bad neighborhoods, been jumped, been mugged, been assaulted at a party because someone got too drunk, and so on and so forth.  They've since those days trained to plan for them, and therefore have "seen it all."  A student of beginner to intermediate level would however be better off carrying a kubaton or a small knife, or simply traveling in a group, only because they _don't know_ what to expect, and perhaps _haven't trained _that much, and thus _need_ something on them as back up.



  Hmmm .... I've lived in bad neighborhoods, been jumped, been assaulted, and I think carrying a kubaton is pretty much useless except to make yourself feel better because you're armed. A student of beginner to intermediate level would be better off avoiding the places they would be likely to need a weapon, and maintaining the proper vigilance to avoid being mugged or assaulted. Proper awareness is a much better self-defense weapon than a kubaton in my opinion, if only for the fact that your beginner to intermediate level student would be much less likely to pull it out and brandish it in an attempt to either intimidate (doesn't usually work) or impress (doesn't usually work either).

  Just my thoughts.


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## Sapphire (Jul 13, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> Hmmm .... I've lived in bad neighborhoods, been jumped, been assaulted, and I think carrying a kubaton is pretty much useless except to make yourself feel better because you're armed. A student of beginner to intermediate level would be better off avoiding the places they would be likely to need a weapon, and maintaining the proper vigilance to avoid being mugged or assaulted. Proper awareness is a much better self-defense weapon than a kubaton in my opinion, if only for the fact that your beginner to intermediate level student would be much less likely to pull it out and brandish it in an attempt to either intimidate (doesn't usually work) or impress (doesn't usually work either).
> 
> Just my thoughts.



As accurate as you are about awareness and avoidance, some people have no choice, the "luck of the draw" causes someone to be mugged/jumped/assaulted, and that's all there is to it.  A gal in my area about 5 years ago was visited by a former boyfriend at her house when she came home from college.  Nobody would have guessed that she'd be found behind a dumpster almost a week later.  Things happen, but I doubt I need to go on about that kind of thing in this thread.

The FMA instructor who introduced me to the karambit explained to me that "weapons are meant to be felt, not seen," and I fully agree with that.  Personally for me, I would only use the kubaton in extreme cases of literally protecting life and limb from multiple attackers and/or weapon wielding attacker(s).  Unless it's a gun, there's no purpose in brandishing a weapon in my opinion.  Even now, I'm working at the Renaissance Festival in my area, selling hand-made, fully functional for utility and combat, heirloom quality knives and swords.  I am *required* to cut a piece of card stock for *every blade I allow a customer to hold,* but *only if they're above the age of 18, *otherwise they can only look.  Even still, just this past Saturday I did that for two 20-ish year old guys and IMMEDIATELY after handing the knife to one of them *he chopped at his fingers with the knife to test the sharpness*.  That told me once and for all that *absolutely nobody actually fears a knife unless they've trained with one or actually seen one harm someone,* *and therefore brandishing it for reaction only means you're scared, or in the case that someone actually respects the knife, allows the opponent the opportunity to plan for the disarm.*

I say all this to say that it's all about the training.  I would never draw a weapon as a flashy show, nor would I teach someone to, because if someone is out to get you, the only thing that people might still react to is a gun, but I think video games are going to change that.


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## Sapphire (Jul 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Cops seem to manage with tazers,mace and bats.
> 
> I like a d cell torch. Because the night is dark and full of terrors.



I apologize for the double post -- I forgot to respond to this one.

I don't think I need to go into how police officers are allowed to break various laws, such as when and what they can carry, and where.  Even still, are we talking a 2-cell D or a 6-cell D?


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## Orange Lightning (Jul 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Not  knives for self defence.



Of course not. But do they carry knives at all? Just to be able to cut things? l've known a few that carried personal knives, but nothing general issue.


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## greytowhite (Jul 18, 2015)

It was a basic thing taught to almost any kid growing up in Stockton, CA. Carry a Bic lighter, C battery, or something to load your fist with. It's easy to conceal and doesn't get you in trouble at school like a knife or a gun. Although one girl did light a bus seat on fire one morning with her Bic and those were banned by school district.


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## K-man (Jul 18, 2015)

Danny T said:


> I carry a tactical pen, a tactical flash light, a folder, and a fixed blade.
> The pen can be utilized as a pen, a kubaton, a loaded fist.
> The flash light can be utilized as a light, a kubaton, a loaded fist.
> The folder prior to being opened can be utilized as a kubaton or a loaded fist. When opened the same but with a edge.
> Same with the fixed blade.


A torch is fine to carry here (Australia), or a pen for that matter, but the moment you carry a 'tactical' torch or a 'tactical' pen it becomes a legal grey area. They can be classified as weapons. Knives here are totally out of the question unless you have a legitimate reason to be carrying one. Self defence is not a reason.

Kubatons themselves are actually illegal here unless you have a weapons licence, too expensive to bother with unless you are doing a lot of weapon training, and even having a licence to carry a kubaton doesn't give you authority to use it. A good solid pen or an appropriate torch give you the equivalent options and most attackers would not think of them as weapons if you lost either in an altercation.


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## Jacky Zuki (Jul 20, 2015)

Kubotans are illegal to carry here in the UK as well. I'm rather glad about that though as I was teaching in a rather rough secondary school before the ban and it was a game among the students to "tag" teachers with a quick kubotan strike to the hip, thigh, elbow or knee in crowded corridors. They don't do much damage but they are really annoying.


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## Tez3 (Jul 20, 2015)

Jacky Zuki said:


> Kubotans are illegal to carry here in the UK as well.



Actually they aren't as such, the only ones that are specifically illegal are the ones with spikes. If you are stopped by the police and are carrying a kubatan, it will depend on the circumstances of the 'stop' whether it's going to be classed as an offensive weapon or not.


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## Sapphire (Jul 20, 2015)

Good grief.  All of these laws in Australia and the UK make me feel better about the amount of laws concerning guns in America.  I live in a rather progressive state that has tried very hard to ban guns, but thankfully hasn't succeeded yet.  I can't imagine not being allowed to carry anything for self defense.  Not because I absolutely need it but simply because people should have the freedom to carry as they choose, as long as they using it for _defense_, not _offense._


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