# Using Your Art



## MJS (Apr 16, 2007)

This isn't a thread to discuss what we should do prior to a confrontation, as we already know that answer. This is a thread to discuss using what you've spent years training in, and dealing with the results. Many times in discussion, both here and in RL, I get the impression that people are second guessing whether or not to defend themselves. Personally, that is the #1 reason why I train, for self defense, so while talking our way out is the usual first response, there comes a time when that does not work. As it was said in another thread, if it was that simple, then why bother training?

There was a story recently in the paper here in CT of a female LEO that was assaulted by the wife of another officer. The wife accused the LEO of some inappropriate things. She then proceeded to strike her numerous times. The female LEO who was off duty basically did nothing during this assault and later stated that she did that because she did not want to lose her job.

IMHO, if someone is physically assaulting me, I'm sorry, but I would not just stand there getting hit. Does the thought of time in court and all the other wonder things that come with the package enter my mind? Sure. However, my well being and the concern for the well being of someone that may be with me, is also on my mind. I'm not advocating excessive force, but what it takes to end the situation.


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## LawDog (Apr 16, 2007)

I am not sure of the question so I will put out a short response for now.

The whole idea of training is not to think about the  what if's, should I and the how far do I go thoughts. Your training has already taught you all these things. All of your training has programed your mind, much like a computer, with all of information that you will need. Turn off the thought process and let your training take over. You will know when to start, how far to go and when to end. No thought and no emotion will get you through everything you encounter just fine. It has worked for me in the street for the past 34 years.
:enguard: 
Besides,
It is better to be judged by six than to be carried by six.
irateph3


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## kidswarrior (Apr 16, 2007)

LawDog said:


> I am not sure of the question so I will put out a short response for now.
> 
> The whole idea of training is not to think about the what if's, should I and the how far do I go thoughts. Your training has already taught you all these things. All of your training has programed your mind, much like a computer, with all of information that you will need. Turn off the thought process and let your training take over. You will know when to start, how far to go and when to end. No thought and no emotion will get you through everything you encounter just fine. It has worked for me in the street for the past 34 years.
> :enguard:


 
Ditto. Short and to the point.


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## MJS (Apr 16, 2007)

Thank you both for your replies.  I thought my OP was clear as to what the thread was about, but perhaps I can elaborate a bit more. 

Reading thru some recent posts, it seems to me that the general concensus of some, is that while we train in the arts, we should never use our training, and if we do, we're going against some law.  

I'm not advocating going out and looking for a fight.  In that case, yes, we'd be abusing our skill.  However, if someone is making threats to us, attempting to cause us physical harm, etc., then IMHO, I see nothing wrong with defending ourself.  

As it was said by Lawdog, I'd rather by judged than carried.

Mike


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## kidswarrior (Apr 16, 2007)

MJS said:


> Thank you both for your replies.  I thought my OP was clear as to what the thread was about, but perhaps I can elaborate a bit more.
> 
> Reading thru some recent posts, it seems to me that the general concensus of some, is that while we train in the arts, we should never use our training, and if we do, we're going against some law.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I agree Mike. Didn't understand this was where you were going with the OP. Think the law in much of CA is that you can use reasonable force to stop an attacker. This means I can use my MA training if under physical attack. But I probably have to be more conscious than most people of how much damage is done--even if it's only one strike, kick, or throw. If I break s.th. with even that one move, as Bill Wallace says, he'll try to claim later I 'cheated' because of my training. 

Bottom line is, I'm not going to let someone attack me or anyone with me. I just want to try to be cognizant of how much more damage I may do after 15 years of Asian practice (plus prior boxing, wrestling, military training, and some street nonsense), than s.o. without that training and experience.

True story of a master I know--elderly guy, too, and not very big. Two young men decided to rob him, and one swung on him to knock him down. This small, elderly MA 'merely' cross-blocked, and the one he engaged went down while the other ran away. That, to me, is the perfect scenario (and I bet the attacker still has that bruise!!). Now if the master had continued through a prescripted technique, he probably would have maimed or killed one or both of the attackers. Then he _would _have been judged by 12, and probably pretty harshly. This is not to say he wouldn't have been justified in using s.th. different from a block, such as a strike which pre-empted the other's punch. Just that he knew what his block would do, and used it.

Hope this is closer to what you had in mind.


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## Drac (Apr 16, 2007)

LawDog said:


> I am not sure of the question so I will put out a short response for now.
> 
> The whole idea of training is not to think about the what if's, should I and the how far do I go thoughts. Your training has already taught you all these things. All of your training has programed your mind, much like a computer, with all of information that you will need. Turn off the thought process and let your training take over. You will know when to start, how far to go and when to end. No thought and no emotion will get you through everything you encounter just fine. It has worked for me in the street for the past 34 years.
> :enguard:
> ...


 
Amen brother..You attack me off duty and you get hurt*...I'd rather have an ugly trial than a beautiful funeral...*


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## morph4me (Apr 17, 2007)

MJS said:


> Thank you both for your replies. I thought my OP was clear as to what the thread was about, but perhaps I can elaborate a bit more.
> 
> Reading thru some recent posts, it seems to me that the general concensus of some, is that while we train in the arts, we should never use our training, and if we do, we're going against some law.
> 
> ...


 
It seems counterproductive to me to train for something and then not use your training at the appropriate time. I could already fight and defend myself before I took my first class, a side effect of having to do it so often as a kid. I started martial arts in order to become more efficient at it, then a curious thing happened, the better I got, the less I needed to use it, but my willingness to do what had to be done never changed. I would rather put my fate in the hands of a jury of my peers then in the hands of some lowlife with no regard for life. 

My training gives me more options than I used to have. I used to have to go directly to attempting maximum damage to an attacker immediately, now I have the options of being less brutal if the situation doesn't call for maximimum response. I would feel bad if I had to use my training at this point, but I'd get over it. I can't be sure I'd get over the results of not using what I know in a situation that called for it.


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## sholo86 (Apr 17, 2007)

This reminded of a conversation I had with a co-worker after he found out I train in martial arts. He said to me "you know your hands are weapons right?" He even added to say "you know if you hurt somebody really bad, you can get sued or end up in court for assualt right? This is why I never really wanted to learn MA because your skills could be a limiting factor as to how much force you can apply for defending yourself. I protect what I love and if somebody wants to hurt me or my loved ones, I'll be beating and kicking down some major @$$es!"

Well, the way I see it, with or without martial arts training, you still end up in court for using excesive force and get charged for assualt even if the other person started the whole confrontation. The plus side of MA training is that you end up knowing when to stop before it becomes an assualt. Your training will tell you when you have gained the upper hand and its time for the law to step in. You have control of your emotions and not let it get out of hand. 

Again, all of this depends on the circumstances and with your training, you'll know what to do.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 17, 2007)

morph4me said:
			
		

> I could already fight and defend myself before I took my first class, a side effect of having to do it so often as a kid. I started martial arts in order to become more efficient at it, then a curious thing happened, the better I got, the less I needed to use it, but my willingness to do what had to be done never changed. I would rather put my fate in the hands of a jury of my peers then in the hands of some lowlife with no regard for life.
> 
> My training gives me more options than I used to have. I used to have to go directly to attempting maximum damage to an attacker immediately


 
How is it we share the same life story? :lol2: I'm with you completely.



sholo86 said:


> The plus side of MA training is that you end up knowing when to stop before it becomes an assualt. Your training will tell you when you have gained the upper hand and its time for the law to step in.


 
This is how I see it, too.  The Ma gives us the option of graduated levels of response, and training to choose the right level.


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## jdinca (Apr 17, 2007)

The whole key to this is making sure your response is proportionate to the attack. If someone takes a swing at you and you break his arms, punch him in the throat, whatever, you put yourself at risk. If someone takes a swing at you and defend yourself and make sure he can't take another swing at you without a "devastating response", then you should be okay. I definitely wouldn't hold back because I was afraid of the legal consquences, nor would I so totally lose control of myself that I went overboard in my response.


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## Dave Leverich (Apr 17, 2007)

Extremely well put jdinca.


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## jdinca (Apr 17, 2007)

Dave Leverich said:


> Extremely well put jdinca.



:asian:


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2007)

jdinca said:


> The whole key to this is making sure your response is proportionate to the attack. If someone takes a swing at you and you break his arms, punch him in the throat, whatever, you put yourself at risk. If someone takes a swing at you and defend yourself and make sure he can't take another swing at you without a "devastating response", then you should be okay. I definitely wouldn't hold back because I was afraid of the legal consquences, nor would I so totally lose control of myself that I went overboard in my response.


I'd only add...

And being able to articulate why what you did was proportional and appropriate.

If you keep your reactions reasonable to the threat, and can explain why they were reasonable...  You'll almost certainly be OK.  You may still get sued or arrested, but you'll probably come out of it OK.


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## tellner (Apr 17, 2007)

Some general rules of thumb. I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice.

Don't get into any fights that you don't have to. 

If you do get into a fight don't stop as long as you're in danger.

If you're not in danger any longer stop fighting. 

If you don't believe you're in danger of being seriously jacked up only open the small sized can of whoop-***. 

If you believe it's safe to stroll away it's probably safe to run away.

In the eyes of the police flight tends to mean guilt. A lot of "good shoots" have become felony convictions because the shooter ran and didn't call the police.

If your back's to the wall or innocent life is in danger do what you have to do. That's what your training is for.

Be able to articulate what you did and why you did it.

There's no shame in being afraid. It's one of the most important legal standards for self defense. But it should be reasonable fear. Blind panic doesn't get you any points. 

"Reasonable" will not be decided by a twelve MT readers with the mods as presiding judges. It will be decided by a dozen people who don't have jobs, don't get out much and couldn't think up a reason to get out of jury duty. The person in charge is a judge who spends his or her working life as G-d Almighty in the tiny universe that is the courtroom, surrounded by servants and protected from the possibility of harm. One lawyer - who probably hasnt' defended a legitimate self defense claim in years - is being paid to act as if you are pure as the driven snow. The other one is honor bound to believe you are the love-child of Satan, Hitler and the Boston Strangler.

So you _*really*_ need to know what you did, why you did it and be able to explain why you had to do it.

Other things can make a difference. If you were dressed in Arsenal colors and were surrounded 100 drunken British Football fans wearing Manchester jerseys you can make a darned good case that you had to pull out the stops and that the submachine gun and machete (legality of carrying them aside) were no more than reasonable. If the other guys are bigger and stronger, if they outnumber you, if they are better armed than you, if you have good reason to believe that they are well-trained and/or experienced in violence, if you're physically impaired due to illness, if you're a woman and they are men if they're on better drugs than you are the equation can change. 

An example we liked to use in our WSD classes was Grandma and Bubba. Grandma has made 87 trips around the cruel old Sun. She weighs one pound for every one of those years. Bubba is 300 pounds of muscle. He used to _be_ the front four for the Cincinnati Bengals. Currently his job is carrying beer kegs (one-handed) for a brewery. His testicles are still shrunk to the size of BBs because of the heroic amounts of steroids he's done. 

If Grandma has a fit of senile dementia and tries to hit Bubba with her walker he might be justified in holding her at arms' length until she gets tired.

If Bubba 'roids out and attacks Grandma she can probably get away with a little more. By "a little more" I mean that if she shoots him so full of holes that squirrels and small birds can nest inside his chest cavity the police are likely to say "Nice groups, ma'am. Do you need a ride home?"

[Unpaid plug] For the answers to these and other important questions I can not recommend Massad Ayoob's LFI-1 Judicious Use of Deadly Force highly enough.


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## jdinca (Apr 17, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'd only add...
> 
> And being able to articulate why what you did was proportional and appropriate.
> 
> If you keep your reactions reasonable to the threat, and can explain why they were reasonable...  You'll almost certainly be OK.  You may still get sued or arrested, but you'll probably come out of it OK.



If you're REALLY good, it will look like you were just defending yourself the whole time you're pummeling the bad guy.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 17, 2007)

jdinca said:


> The whole key to this is making sure your response is proportionate to the attack. If someone takes a swing at you and you break his arms, punch him in the throat, whatever, you put yourself at risk. If someone takes a swing at you and defend yourself and make sure he can't take another swing at you without a "devastating response", then you should be okay. I definitely wouldn't hold back because I was afraid of the legal consquences, nor would I so totally lose control of myself that I went overboard in my response.


That is true "Eye for an Eye" justice... moderation is the Key.
sean


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## tellner (Apr 17, 2007)

It seems perfectly reasonable to me. You use the degree of force which is required to protect yourself. You don't use more, and you are not stupid enough to do less. How is that different than moderation?


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## Juggernaut (Apr 18, 2007)

tellner said:


> Some general rules of thumb. I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice.
> 
> Don't get into any fights that you don't have to.
> 
> ...



Fantastic Post Tellner I agree on all points..


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 18, 2007)

tellner said:


> It seems perfectly reasonable to me. You use the degree of force which is required to protect yourself. You don't use more, and you are not stupid enough to do less. How is that different than moderation?


I just said it was the same.(if you were asking me)
Sean


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## still learning (Apr 19, 2007)

Hello, The aveage martial artist has never been in fight.  We train in a dojo that is safe, comfortable atmosphere.

Try this? go to a place in the dark of night, by yourself alone?  The fear factors, adrenline effects, create's a different you.  If approach by a stranger/s ....think you will be calm?  

Most people will forget most of the things they being training for.

A real fight is ANYTHING GOES, none stop (bad guys know this well), if you can still get up...than you will be able to attack back...so from their experience...they will keep hitting you!  Weapons may be use against you too!

Most martial art schools do not train in this FEAR SITUTIONS.  One day you will understand this?  

Aloha......smile, and if attack?  fight like you are crazy...you life may depend on it!    Don't forget to Kiai!


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## tellner (Apr 19, 2007)

still learning said:


> Try this? go to a place in the dark of night, by yourself alone?  The fear factors, adrenline effects, create's a different you.  If approach by a stranger/s ....think you will be calm?
> 
> Most people will forget most of the things they being training for.
> 
> ...



There's a point in there. Most schools don't teach dealing with and using adrenaline, pain and fear. But you really underestimate most people. Get them scared, really scared, or just pissed off enough and the "fight" part of "fight-flight-freeze" is there. 

You also seem to have an incredibly pessimistic attitude towards self defense in general. Don't use a gun. He'll just take it away and use it against you. Don't train for the purpose of self defense. It just won't work. Any more encouraging pearls of wisdom to share with us, or should we just give up and die?


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## zDom (Apr 20, 2007)

LawDog said:


> The whole idea of training is not to think about the  what if's, should I and the how far do I go thoughts. Your training has already taught you all these things. All of your training has programed your mind, much like a computer, with all of information that you will need. Turn off the thought process and let your training take over. You will know when to start, how far to go and when to end. No thought and no emotion will get you through everything you encounter just fine. It has worked for me in the street for the past 34 years.
> :enguard:
> Besides,
> It is better to be judged by six than to be carried by six.
> irateph3



Well said.



morph4me said:


> It seems counterproductive to me to train for something and then not use your training at the appropriate time. I could already fight and defend myself before I took my first class, a side effect of having to do it so often as a kid. I started martial arts in order to become more efficient at it, then a curious thing happened, the better I got, the less I needed to use it, but my willingness to do what had to be done never changed. I would rather put my fate in the hands of a jury of my peers then in the hands of some lowlife with no regard for life.
> 
> My training gives me more options than I used to have. I used to have to go directly to attempting maximum damage to an attacker immediately, now I have the options of being less brutal if the situation doesn't call for maximimum response. I would feel bad if I had to use my training at this point, but I'd get over it. I can't be sure I'd get over the results of not using what I know in a situation that called for it.



Looks like I'm not the ONLY one who ended up with a copy of this "life script." 



kidswarrior said:


> How is it we share the same life story? :lol2: I'm with you completely.
> 
> This is how I see it, too.  The Ma gives us the option of graduated levels of response, and training to choose the right level.



Er... makes at least THREE of us now 



jdinca said:


> The whole key to this is making sure your response is proportionate to the attack. If someone takes a swing at you and you break his arms, punch him in the throat, whatever, you put yourself at risk. If someone takes a swing at you and defend yourself and make sure he can't take another swing at you without a "devastating response", then you should be okay. I definitely wouldn't hold back because I was afraid of the legal consquences, nor would I so totally lose control of myself that I went overboard in my response.



Also well said.



Juggernaut said:


> Fantastic Post Tellner I agree on all points..



Me too. Very nice post, Tellner.

Heck, not much left to add now, except for emphasizing the "don't leave the scene" (unless you MUST for safety) aspect.

A couple of years ago I was attacked by a group of 20-something punks on a fast food parking lot. After successfully defending myself (after! She didn't intervene while I was under attack!!) The manager came out and said,

"Leave right now or I'll call the cops!!"

My response was: "Call them &#8212; RIGHT NOW! I've been assaulted and I WANT the cops here!"

Successfully defending doesn't mean it wasn't an assault. And leaving the scene may lead LEO to believe you are the guilty party.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 24, 2007)

zDom said:


> Looks like I'm not the ONLY one who ended up with a copy of this "life script."
> 
> Er... makes at least THREE of us now



Maybe we should start a little *Band of Street-Fighting Nerds Turned MA*? Kind of like Tellner, Exile, Xue Sheng, and Flying Crane's _Curmudgeon club of HEROIC... something, something...._ 

Either that, or do extensive geneology studies to identify any nexus in our origins. I mean, something has to account for our being _Martial Triplets_, doesn't it?

Seriously, *zDom*, this part was extremely important and I've been meaning to get back to it to say so for a couple of days.


> Heck, not much left to add now, except for emphasizing the "don't leave the scene" (unless you MUST for safety) aspect.
> 
> A couple of years ago I was attacked by a group of 20-something punks on a fast food parking lot. After successfully defending myself (after! She didn't intervene while I was under attack!!) The manager came out and said,
> 
> ...


GREAT point! _Street Fighting Nerds Turned MA_ rock!


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## zDom (Apr 25, 2007)

As Dave Barry would say, "Street Fighting Nerds" would make a GREAT name for a rock band! 

Hmmmm... or maybe Gung Fu movie... I really need to get that script-writing software...


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## kidswarrior (Apr 25, 2007)

zDom said:


> As Dave Barry would say, "Street Fighting Nerds" would make a GREAT name for a rock band!
> 
> Hmmmm... or maybe Gung Fu movie... I really need to get that script-writing software...


:highfive:


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## MaartenSFS (May 14, 2007)

The most important training that one can take away from the training hall is that of martial psychology.


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## whitetiger2001 (Jun 8, 2007)

Like all true MAs, I hope I never need to use what I know but two expressions come to mind if that I have to.

 You are judge, jury and executioner, you decide how much to make your attacker a prisoner of their own body.

 The attacker is giving you the greatest gift, the key to his destruction, it's up to you to be able to see it and use it.

  So far aside from a situation where it was enough to control someone, I have never had to use what I know in self defense and for that I'm grateful.      

:yinyang:


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## tellner (Jun 8, 2007)

zDom said:


> A couple of years ago I was attacked by a group of 20-something punks on a fast food parking lot. After successfully defending myself (after! She didn't intervene while I was under attack!!) The manager came out and said,
> 
> "Leave right now or I'll call the cops!!"
> 
> ...



Beautiful! That was exactly the absolute best way to handle it. Textbook perfect. Did she call the police? How did they respond to the situation?


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## zDom (Jun 11, 2007)

tellner said:


> Beautiful! That was exactly the absolute best way to handle it. Textbook perfect. Did she call the police? How did they respond to the situation?



She did. They showed up about two minutes later.

Considering they had conflicting versions of the altercation after interviewing everybody at the scene, they took the appropriate action: they arrested me and two of my attackers, took us down to HQ.

Upon arrival, demeanor and behavior soon gave them a clear indication of who was more truthful, despite them having more "witnesses." (I could hear one calling the officers foul names and inviting them to perform ******** on him...)

I was soon released and the third-degree assault charge I was arrested for was dropped before the court date.

My attackers, I believe, ended up spending the night in jail, if not longer.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Jun 14, 2007)

Waiting on the scene is a double edged  sword  and I feel depends on what just went down and with whom was involved  and who else  is there.

 These days,  you  might take down some low life  "Gangsa" waanabe  or  real deal, and if you hang around he or one of his might pull a gun and shot you or you might end up  being mobbed.

 I would rather flee and go right to the Police (call them if I can)

 In Va. the first to report it to the authorities is sided with by the system, so basically, unless i knew that no one saw what went down, I'm going right to the Cop shop.


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## matt.m (Jun 14, 2007)

A military policeman once told me "Go ahead and fight, however make comments such as 'Quit attacking me.....I don't want to fight' if you do that you will not look like the aggressor, you will be the defender."


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 14, 2007)

matt.m said:


> A military policeman once told me "Go ahead and fight, however make comments such as 'Quit attacking me.....I don't want to fight' if you do that you will not look like the aggressor, you will be the defender."



Yes, my instructor (ex-police) says the same thing.  Make sure you say very loudly things like "I don't want to fight you", "I'm afraid of you
", things like that.  You want the witnesses on your side.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Jun 14, 2007)

The closest thing we have to a ready stance, is putting your hands up  and saying  "I don't want any trouble."  It's alot like a less cool versio of a Muay Thai ready position, you just loook like your putting your hands out and gestureing that you don't want anything, but you present the bottm edge  of your forearms somewhat.

 A Prison   guard I know says that when he has to fill in an ignorent convict, he takes them in their cell and proceeds to wail on them, screaming " Stop resisting, Stop fighting." no one can see whats going on and all that's recorded is him yelling that.

 Before anyone sheds a tear about Prisoner abuse, some of these guys  are murdering, raping scum who are'nt affraid of much,and those guarding them are unarmed and outnumberd, so you have to take the more insolent ones and break them   down a bit.

Also why I said no thanks when he said he could get me a good paying job with him though, the heck with having to function in an enviroment like that, it can do dark things to your soul.


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## kaizasosei (Jun 14, 2007)

"Reasonable" will not be decided by a twelve MT readers with the mods as presiding judges. It will be decided by a dozen people who don't have jobs, don't get out much and couldn't think up a reason to get out of jury duty. The person in charge is a judge who spends his or her working life as G-d Almighty in the tiny universe that is the courtroom, surrounded by servants and protected from the possibility of harm. One lawyer - who probably hasnt' defended a legitimate self defense claim in years - is being paid to act as if you are pure as the driven snow. The other one is honor bound to believe you are the love-child of Satan, Hitler and the Boston Strangler.

amazing.. crazy but true.  

so i guess the best would be to look like a granny but pack the punch of bubba.  to have authority and still be completely free.

j


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## tellner (Jun 14, 2007)

In a very real sense, yes. You want the first responders, the investigating officers, the grand jury, the judge and the jury to believe that you didn't start anything and felt that you had no choice. You want them to decide that the other guys attacked you. Since they weren't there and the ones making the final decisions don't have your training or experience - they'd be disqualified from serving on the jury if they did - you and your lawyer need to convince them. 

Trumpeting about how you are a trained killer with several black belts probably isn't going to help much. If you have a very good attorney he may be able to make the case that because of your training you understood just how much danger you were in and that in your informed opinion you needed to do what you did. If he's really on the ball he might be able to argue that you used your training to end the situation with as little damage to the other guys as possible.

That said, you need to be able to open whatever size can of whoop-*** the situation calls for so that you will be in a small enough number of pieces to show up for the trial.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 14, 2007)

I've recounted my one-time-only excursion into utilising my training in other threads and, as I'm not proud of it, I shant drag it out for show once more in terms of description.

What I wanted to add to the discourse is a response to a previous post regarding how all those years of practise can desert you when you need them.  Obviously I can only speak of how it happened for me but my anecdote is that what all those years do, is work your 'art' into spinal reflex; so, if you ever have to defend yourself, it doesn't matter if your conscious mind is a gibbering wreck because your body knows what to do.

In my own circumstance, I was afraid for all of the lead-up to the incident and in the aftermath I was shocked by what I had done, remorseful too (believe it or not) and somewhat fearful of the consequences (as it turned out unnecessarily).  

However, in the brief few seconds when I was actually fighting (during which time I don't recall I actually _thought_ at all about what I was doing) all was calm and slow.  

By the time I'd run to the police station to report it, I was shaking like a leaf with adrenal reaction but it didn't matter by then.  

I suppose it was a different world, legally speaking, when this happened, as the police were actually first concerned to make sure I was okay rather than thinking about charging me with something.  I even got a quiet "Well done, mate" from one of the coppers for coming out the other side physically unscathed (emotionally was a different matter, I feel guilty to this day).

One thing I will say tho' is that once I 'let go', the spinal reflex that saved me also had a dark side in that the techniques I used were not 'restrain and deflect' but 'disable and escape'.  That meant that two out of the three that attacked me ended up with broken bits.  I suspect in todays 'lawyer mad' environment I might have had more trouble than I did then (which was none by the way).


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## bluemtn (Jun 14, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> One thing I will say tho' is that once I 'let go', the spinal reflex that saved me also had a dark side in that the techniques I used were not 'restrain and deflect' but 'disable and escape'. That meant that two out of the three that attacked me ended up with broken bits. I suspect in todays 'lawyer mad' environment I might have had more trouble than I did then (which was none by the way).


 

I've heard that it happens like that sometimes...  I would really defend myself, and like others have said, make it appear that you're trying to get the attacker(s) to stop.


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## tradrockrat (Jun 15, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, The aveage martial artist has never been in fight.  We train in a dojo that is safe, comfortable atmosphere.
> 
> Try this? go to a place in the dark of night, by yourself alone?  The fear factors, adrenline effects, create's a different you.  If approach by a stranger/s ....think you will be calm?
> 
> ...



I respectfully disagree with your assumptions.  The average martial artist I know have almost all been in a real fight or two outside of the dojo.  Many of us have worked in fields that require conflict resolution skills including the physical.  I don't think I know a single MA-ist that isn't aware of the difference between training and reality.

Heck - I had a self defense student who managed to get his assailant to break his own hand against a wall after just a one semester course with me!  He never trained for "fear" or "death matches" he just did what he had been trained to do - evade and circle.  the assailant hit a brick wall instead of my student.  Fight over.

I have had to use my art more than once outside of whatever job I've had.  Twice in my life I've been jumped by multiple assailants for no discernible reason.  Once was the wrong place at the wrong time and once was mistaken identity with no warning whatsoever.  I walked away from both attacks - once with virtually no injuries and once seriously messed up - but both times I put one or more in the hospital and neither time was I arrested or sued.  They were clear cases of self defense and I was sent home after dealing with the authorities.


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## tellner (Jun 15, 2007)

Sukerkin, that's why you train. When bad things happen you let the battle computer or the Thing in the Cave handle things. Or, as my teacher's teacher is wont to say "Relax and enjoy." Afterwards you can have all the emotional reactions that your physiology and self-concept require. When the fewmets are hitting the air circulation system the Lizard takes all calls. In some ways this allows "you" to be protected from some of the effects of the action. Not all, but sometimes it's enough to mean the difference between guilt or sleepless nights and alcoholism or suicidal depression.


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