# Is it worth the buck to train boxing recreationaly?



## Axiom

I'm torn between sticking with my traditional martial arts (4 years of training) and doing something new - that is boxing! I'm very tempted after recieving my first degree black belt to switch!

How many of you traditional martial artists were hooked by boxing? The problem is that I won't be sparring anytime soon, so any free trial won't really tell me as much as would want it too. I have already drilled boxing techniques in my current club, although we don't have it down to a science in the same way. The thing I look forward to the most is sparring and improving.

Also, boxing gyms are very pricey compared to the traditional martial arts, so it better be worth it!


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## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> I'm torn between sticking with my traditional martial arts (4 years of training) and doing something new - that is boxing! I'm very tempted after recieving my first degree black belt to switch!
> 
> How many of you traditional martial artists were hooked by boxing? The problem is that I won't be sparring anytime soon, so any free trial won't really tell me as much as would want it too. I have already drilled boxing techniques in my current club, although we don't have it down to a science in the same way. The thing I look forward to the most is sparring and improving.
> 
> Also, boxing gyms are very pricey compared to the traditional martial arts, so it better be worth it!


If I wasn't traveling, and had the money to drop on it, boxing would be reasonably high on my list of options. I probably wouldn't stay with it more than a year or two, and would have no interest in competing. But to work those techniques with guys who focus on them would be really good. It could do nothing but improve what I do now.


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## Bill Mattocks

I respect boxers and boxing. However, I'm too old to take repetitive head shots of that sort.


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## Gerry Seymour

Bill Mattocks said:


> I respect boxers and boxing. However, I'm too old to take repetitive head shots of that sort.


I think everyone is too old for that kind of repetitive beating.


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## Danny T

Axiom said:


> I'm torn between sticking with my traditional martial arts (4 years of training) and doing something new - that is boxing! I'm very tempted after recieving my first degree black belt to switch!
> 
> How many of you traditional martial artists were hooked by boxing? The problem is that I won't be sparring anytime soon, so any free trial won't really tell me as much as would want it too. I have already drilled boxing techniques in my current club, although we don't have it down to a science in the same way. The thing I look forward to the most is sparring and improving.
> 
> Also, boxing gyms are very pricey compared to the traditional martial arts, so it better be worth it!


Boxing is an excellent addition to fighting knowledge.
Have you not done any sparring with the training you've done over the past 4 years?
Most boxing gyms have people sparring within a very short period of time. What do you mean by not sparring anytime soon?
Any good gym/coach will have you doing slow and light technical sparring before getting into free style sparring.


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## MA_Student

You have to make up your own opinions


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## CB Jones

I boxed growing up.  Great for learning how to get your weight behind your punches and maximizing power.  Also will improve footwork, timing, and angles.

If you can, I would suggest definitely giving it a try.


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## JR 137

I don't know the norm where you are, but the norm here is there's a few "commercial" boxing gyms which focus on fitness (kind of like cardio kickboxing), and ones that focus on relatively speaking "real boxing."  The commercial gyms are expensive, and the competitive ones are significantly cheaper.  Or at least the prices were about 10 years ago when I checked.  If you want actual boxing, look for an actual gym like you would for a dojo.

Boxing is great.  It teaches footwork, mechanics of movement, angles, etc.  It's different in that regard from any karate I've trained, and I found it more technical and intricate.  Hard to explain in words.  Obviously different teachers/coaches teach differently, so what you get out of it will be dependent on that.  If I had the time, opportunity and money to get to a boxing gym semi-regularly, I would in a heartbeat.  I worked out with the boxing club while I was in college.  It really took my karate skills to the next level.

Only way to find out if it's worth your time is to check out a place or two.  It may not be worth it, or you may love it and drop everything else, or something in between.


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## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> I don't know the norm where you are, but the norm here is there's a few "commercial" boxing gyms which focus on fitness (kind of like cardio kickboxing), and ones that focus on relatively speaking "real boxing."  The commercial gyms are expensive, and the competitive ones are significantly cheaper.  .



It's the other way around here.. The real competitive gyms cost a fortune. 2-3 hundred dollars more. One is run by a Boxing coach/Kyokushin Karateka who've I spoken with in the past. His former pupil and now pro boxer was my cousin. They don't see eye to eye anymore but I can surely train with him anway? I have no ambitions to go pro so I don't think my cousin would mind, right?


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## Axiom

Will they let me spar sooner if I have 4 years of "kickboxing-type" sparring? I really don't know if it's my thing or not until I spar.


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## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> Obviously different teachers/coaches teach differently, so what you get out of it will be dependent on that.  .



Could you elaborate on how they would differ? I'm very interested to learn.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> It's the other way around here.. The real competitive gyms cost a fortune. 2-3 hundred dollars more. One is run by a Boxing coach/Kyokushin Karateka who've I spoken with in the past. His former pupil and now pro boxer was my cousin. They don't see eye to eye anymore but I can surely train with him anway? I have no ambitions to go pro so I don't think my cousin would mind, right?


Well tbh who cares what your cousin this is your life not his you make your own choices. If he's upset by it well screw him if he's going to be that petty


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Will they let me spar sooner if I have 4 years of "kickboxing-type" sparring? I really don't know if it's my thing or not until I spar.


Most places should let you spar straight away. But sparring is not the only thing. Boxing will more than likely by a lot more physically demanding than what you're used to it's also very repetitive due to the fact there's only a few moves compared to other martial arts so really once you've learned the basic punches you won't be learning anything /new/ you'll be learning combos and tactics and improving on those punches each but the actual moves you can learn how to do in 1 lesson. That's not a bad thing as you'll be an expert in those moves but I know it'd not for everyone, best bet try it see what you think. You say your cousins a boxer try and spar with him outside a gym and see if you can handle getting hit then make your decision. That's my advice


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Most places should let you spar straight away. But sparring is not the only thing.



The getting hit part is not a problem. The problem is that I would have to abandon my current school because I can't afford or have the time for both. Yet boxing is very tempting. If I absolutely can't stand the rule set and getting adjusted to the new stances, it's an easier decision which to choose. I think I would love boxing sparring but I just don't know.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> The getting hit part is not a problem. The problem is that I would have to abandon my current school because I can't afford or have the time for both. Yet boxing is very tempting. If I absolutely can't stand the rule set and getting adjusted to the new stances, it's an easier decision which to choose. I think I would love boxing sparring but I just don't know.


Well you'll have to get used to them, they won't let you use your old ones they will tell you you're doing it wrong and correct you, best way to do it is gone in there and think you're a total beginner who knows nothing dont think about what you did or have done, in a new style what you did before means nothing all that matters is there and then. I've trained in other styles apart from my base and the best thing to do is what they're telling you. If you go in there questioning everything like oh but I do it like this or I was shown it another way because....they won't appreciate that at all


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> The getting hit part is not a problem. The problem is that I would have to abandon my current school because I can't afford or have the time for both. Yet boxing is very tempting. If I absolutely can't stand the rule set and getting adjusted to the new stances, it's an easier decision which to choose. I think I would love boxing sparring but I just don't know.


Also why do you have to abandon it, just mix it up. One week go one place next week go to the other


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Well you'll have to get used to them, they won't let you use your old ones they will tell you you're doing it wrong and correct you, best way to do it is gone in there and think you're a total beginner who knows nothing dont think about what you did or have done, in a new style what you did before means nothing all that matters is there and then. I've trained in other styles apart from my base and the best thing to do is what they're telling you. If you go in there questioning everything like oh but I do it like this or I was shown it another way because....they won't appreciate that at all



I have no intentions letting them know anything about how I used to spar since it's irrelevant. Point is that I'm ready for sparring right away, and sparring is most likely the deciding factor.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I have no intentions letting them know anything about how I used to spar since it's irrelevant. Point is that I'm ready for sparring right away, and sparring is most likely the deciding factor.


They'll be the ones who decide if you're ready or not I mean if they don't think you're ready you won't be sparring. I've seen people who are great at other styles but still aren't allowed to spar until a certain amount of passed


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## CB Jones

MA_Student said:


> but the actual moves you can learn how to do in 1 lesson.



No...lol.

There is much more to it than that.  From the outside Boxing looks very simplistic but reality its much more complex than it looks.


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## MA_Student

CB Jones said:


> No...lol.
> 
> There is much more to it than that.  From the outside Boxing looks very simplistic but reality its much more complex than it looks.


Yes....lol 

There are 4 punches in boxing jab,cross,hook and uppercut and you can learn the basics of them in 1 lesson yes you can improve them and they won't be perfect after 1 lesson but you'll know what the punches are and you will have a fundamental idea of how to do them after a lesson


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## Headhunter

Boxing isn't all about sparring, you don't learn much technique from sparring. Sparring is about fitness, conditioning, ring craft, working combinations and defence. Your technique is learnt more from shadow boxing, pad work and drills


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## Axiom

Headhunter said:


> . Your technique is learnt more from shadow boxing, pad work and drills



I have already learned that, albeit at a much more artificial level. That's why boxing intrigues me.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> I have already learned that, albeit at a much more artificial level. That's why boxing intrigues me.


There's a huge difference between a karate/taekwondo or whatever punch and a boxers punch. The stances are different, the way you hold your hands is different, the way you block is different. It's very different trust me


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> There's a huge difference between a karate/taekwondo or whatever punch and a boxers punch. The stances are different, the way you hold your hands is different, the way you block is different. It's very different trust me



Oh sure but that's in large part due to the difference in stance, and to really get accustomed to it I need sparring.


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## Axiom

Nevermind the guard.. is the stance in this picture "acceptable" for a boxing coach?

http://www.wikihow.com/images/8/8c/Assume-a-Fighting-Stance-in-Taekwondo-Step-12.jpg


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Oh sure but that's in large part due to the difference in stance, and to really get accustomed to it I need sparring.


If you're doing the stance wrong they most likely won't let you spar until you've got it right on the pads or in shadow boxing. That's how it's done in the gyms I've been in. Maybe not all of them do that but that's what I've seen


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> If you're doing the stance wrong they most likely won't let you spar until you've got it right on the pads or in shadow boxing. That's how it's done in the gyms I've been in.



Yeah but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable with it in live action.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Yeah but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable with it in live action.


Well if you can't do it in the air or on pads you definentely can't do it when someone's attacking you


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## Axiom

MA_Student said:


> Well if you can't do it in the air or on pads you definentely can't do it when someone's attacking you



Being comfortable with it has nothing to do with whether I'm capable or not. I've sparred in a different stance for 4 years, and I'm not positive that I will like how boxers stand.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> Being comfortable with it has nothing to do with whether I'm capable or not. I've sparred in a different stance for 4 years, and I'm not positive that I will like how boxers stand.


Well then don't do boxing...if you can't play by their rules there's not much point doing it


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## Flying Crane

Axiom said:


> I'm torn between sticking with my traditional martial arts (4 years of training) and doing something new - that is boxing! I'm very tempted after recieving my first degree black belt to switch!
> 
> How many of you traditional martial artists were hooked by boxing? The problem is that I won't be sparring anytime soon, so any free trial won't really tell me as much as would want it too. I have already drilled boxing techniques in my current club, although we don't have it down to a science in the same way. The thing I look forward to the most is sparring and improving.
> 
> Also, boxing gyms are very pricey compared to the traditional martial arts, so it better be worth it!


Any martial system, in and of itself, can be worthwhile if it is something you are interested in and if quality instruction is available.

If you think it is something that you "ought" to do because of popular opinion, but you have no real interest in it, then dont do it.

If the biomechanics of the boxing technique are significantly different from your prior training, then you might find some physical conflicts and it could lead to some frustration and/or make it more difficult to progress and/or undermine your prior training.  It is up to you to decide if the potential conflicts matter.


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I think everyone is too old for that kind of repetitive beating.


There is no fun to get punched on the head daily. That's why I like to spend my time in "anti-striking". Not to let my opponent's fist to land on my head is my 1st priority. I try to extend my

- left arm between my opponent's right arm and his head.
- right arm between my opponent's left arm and his head.

IMO, it's much easier to "separate my opponent's arms away from his body (1 skill)" and disable his punching ability than to learn how to box (many skills).

On the other hand, if

- A spends 5 years to learn how to kick.
- B spend 5 years to learn how to catch a kicking leg and take down.

5 years later, if A and B have a fight, who is going to win? That can be another interested experiment.


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## Axiom

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is no fun to get punched on the head daily. .



Ah but you see, boxing is the art of punching without getting punched. But it's not fun being on the reciever end of that


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## Kung Fu Wang

Axiom said:


> Ah but you see, boxing is the art of punching without getting punched. But it's not fun being on the reciever end of that


Of course if you don't train boxing, you will never be good in boxing yourself.

The basic idea of boxing is

- you use your arms to protect your head and you try to punch your opponent's head.
- your opponent uses his arms to protect his head and he tries to punch your head.

This strategy will give both you and your opponent all the punch space and distance that will be needed.

If you always try to "squeeze" your opponent's punching space and distance, he cannot punch you. That's more aggressive and better approach.

Instead of using your arm to protect your own head, it's better to extend your arms and put your hand next to your opponent's boxing guard. The moment that your opponent tries to punch you, the moment that you try to interrupt his punch at the beginner stage when his punch has less speed and less power.

It's a different way of thinking. You try to force your opponent to play a game that he is not familiar with.


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## Danny T

It seems to me you are more interested in 'sparring boxers' rather than 'learning to box'.


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## Gerry Seymour

Danny T said:


> It seems to me you are more interested in 'sparring boxers' rather than 'learning to box'.


And visiting an MMA gym, I'd guess it'd be reasonably easy to find a boxer willing to spar against other styles. May be able to find someone at a boxing gym, too, though they might see it as someone looking to prove their art is better than boxing (like a Gracie challenge).


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## Axiom

Danny T said:


> It seems to me you are more interested in 'sparring boxers' rather than 'learning to box'.



I'm *more* interested in that than becoming a pro level boxer, but I would like to learn boxing as well.


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## drop bear

We spar karate guys now. they just turn upon sparring days. And decide to either kickbox or Kyokushin depending on what people want to do.


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## CB Jones

MA_Student said:


> Yes....lol
> 
> There are 4 punches in boxing jab,cross,hook and uppercut and you can learn the basics of them in 1 lesson yes you can improve them and they won't be perfect after 1 lesson but you'll know what the punches are and you will have a fundamental idea of how to do them after a lesson



We had a much different experiences then.

The gymn I trained at you start off with a jab and straight right with emphasis on keeping your hands up.  Lot of time hitting a heavy bag with jabs and straight rights.  You naturally start learning some basic footwork while adding in head movement.  Once you get some basic footwork and head movement then you learn how to throw a hook and again lot of work on the heavy bag.  Learn better footwork and angles and then you learn the uppercut and overhand right. 

In the beginning, a lot of time hitting the bag building punching technique and muscle memory.


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## Axiom

drop bear said:


> We spar karate guys now. they just turn upon sparring days. And decide to either kickbox or Kyokushin depending on what people want to do.



Any overlap at all? Footwork, technique, movement?


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Any overlap at all? Footwork, technique, movement?



Yes and no. Face punching changes the game a bit. Krotty guys dig in a bit better. The distance is surprisingly similar due to the toe to toe nature.

But plenty of krotty have made the transition to kickboxing.


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## Danny T

Axiom said:


> I'm *more* interested in that than becoming a pro level boxer, but I would like to learn boxing as well.


Then stop worry about comparing what you already know or what you are comfortable with and go learn boxing. Then you can do both, spar what you know and what you will have learned in boxing.


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## Axiom

drop bear said:


> Yes and no. Face punching changes the game a bit. Krotty guys dig in a bit better. The distance is surprisingly similar due to the toe to toe nature.
> 
> But plenty of krotty have made the transition to kickboxing.



But don't Kyokushin guys get shell-shocked by a knockout-style boxer? They have literaly zero face punching in their sparring. A heavy hitting boxer must be a nightmare for them, no?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Danny T said:


> It seems to me you are more interested in 'sparring boxers' rather than 'learning to box'.


For any wrestler who "doesn't want to train boxing" but has to deal with a boxer in MMA gym.


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## Bill Mattocks

I hate that I keep getting sucked into these stupid threads where someone asks a question they already have an answer for, they just wanted to school the rest of us. I hate hidden agendas.


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> But don't Kyokushin guys get shell-shocked by a knockout-style boxer? They have literaly zero face punching in their sparring. A heavy hitting boxer must be a nightmare for them, no?



Yeah. A few of them really don't like being punched in the face. And it is harder to staunchly just stand and trade. But the best thing about doing a style that is different to yours is you are forced to develop a skill you may otherwise be able to ignore.


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## JR 137

Axiom said:


> But don't Kyokushin guys get shell-shocked by a knockout-style boxer? They have literaly zero face punching in their sparring. A heavy hitting boxer must be a nightmare for them, no?


Saying Kyokushin sparring have zero face punching is about as accurate as saying karate is all point fighting.  

Kyokushin has face punching.  A lot of dojos put on gloves and headgear and do it.  A lot of Kyokushin did go through a phase where they were almost entirely focused on competition, and a lot of them dropped head punching.  Plenty have seen the error of this since.  I've seen videos of Shigeru Oyama from the late 70s/very early 80s (judging by the dojo in the videos) having his students spar with headgear and gloves while allowing punches to the head.  He had a Kyokushin gi on, so it was before his split from Kyokushin in 1985.

Kyokushin doesn't punch the head in competition and bare knuckle.  That doesn't mean they don't do it at all.


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## JR 137

drop bear said:


> Yeah. A few of them really don't like being punched in the face. And it is harder to staunchly just stand and trade. But the best thing about doing a style that is different to yours is you are forced to develop a skill you may otherwise be able to ignore.


Does anyone really like getting punched in the face?

Edit: maybe a few sickos get off on that sort of thing, but they're the exception.


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## JR 137

Axiom said:


> Could you elaborate on how they would differ? I'm very interested to learn.


Different teachers emphasize different things. I'm not sure what art you currently practice, but it would be the same thing as how your teacher teaches vs how another one in the same organization teaches.  There's great, awful, and everything in between.  Watching the boxing coach coach his athletes will give you an idea about if he/she knows what he/she's doing.


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## drop bear

JR 137 said:


> Does anyone really like getting punched in the face?
> 
> Edit: maybe a few sickos get off on that sort of thing, but they're the exception.



There is a difference between living with it and reacting like a cat thrown in a pool.


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## JR 137

drop bear said:


> There is a difference between living with it and reacting like a cat thrown in a pool.


I get that.  But again, it is really just a Kyokushin thing?  Are those guys all from the same dojo?  Maybe that one doesn't do any head/face punching.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JR 137 said:


> Does anyone really like getting punched in the face?
> 
> Edit: maybe a few sickos get off on that sort of thing, but they're the exception.


When I had my MA school, one day a guy walked in, picked up a dumbbell from the ground, and started to hit on his head over and over. He then said, "I do this everyday". I pulled out a Colt 45, pointed it to my head, and kept pulling the trigger. I then said, "This is what I do everyday". He turned around and left.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> There is a difference between living with it and reacting like a cat thrown in a pool.


I _want_ to react like a cat thrown in a pool. That's how much I enjoy getting punched in the face. But...that's not helpful, so I don't do that.


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## Axiom

drop bear said:


> Yeah. A few of them really don't like being punched in the face. And it is harder to staunchly just stand and trade. But the best thing about doing a style that is different to yours is you are forced to develop a skill you may otherwise be able to ignore.



Out of curiousity, since my style does have face punching, which would you prefer of these two suboptimal choices before joining a boxing gym? --  a semi contact style with constant face punching. Or full contact with no face punching (Kyokushin competition rules) in transitioning to boxing? Which of the two is the smoothest transition in your opinion?


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## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Out of curiousity, since my style does have face punching, which would you prefer of these two suboptimal choices before joining a boxing gym? --  a semi contact style with constant face punching. Or full contact with no face punching (Kyokushin competition rules) in transitioning to boxing? Which of the two is the smoothest transition in your opinion?


If by "semi contact" you mean "don't hit really hard", go with that one. If you mean soft-touch, do the other.


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## Axiom

gpseymour said:


> If by "semi contact" you mean "don't hit really hard", go with that one. If you mean soft-touch, do the other.



By semi contact in my case there could be hard contact, but not more than you feel it, brush it off and then continue. I actually don't mind getting punched in the face specifically. I don't think it hurts,  it's mostly a psychological thing. Hard strikes to the body are tougher personally for me.


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## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> I get that.  But again, it is really just a Kyokushin thing?  Are those guys all from the same dojo?  Maybe that one doesn't do any head/face punching.



Even though kyokushin schools do incorporate face punching, they probably don't do it on a daily basis....


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## Axiom

A guy I talked to who does Kyokushin even claims headkicks are rare because of the close range fighting and lack of face punching (easier to keep track of kicks). So Kyokushin for all intents and purposes is a chest/stomach conditioning style first and foremost.


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## JR 137

Axiom said:


> A guy I talked to who does Kyokushin even claims headkicks are rare because of the close range fighting and lack of face punching (easier to keep track of kicks). So Kyokushin for all intents and purposes is a chest/stomach conditioning style first and foremost.


Primarily, as the torso is a significantly bigger and easier target.  The legs, especially outside of the thighs are also a big/popular target for kicks.

You'd be surprised how well a lot of Kyokushin guys with a good amount of experience and agility can kick to the head from close range.  And they're really tough to see coming.  

But I'd say without doubt the torso is the main target for punching, and the legs are the main target for kicking.

And yes, head/face punching isn't done on a daily basis.  It's done less so than in boxing, but to say there's zero head/face punching in Kyokushin is painting with an awfully wide brush.  There may be some dojos that don't, but they're becoming far less, especially the higher in rank one gets.

Just my experience.  It's too bad the Kyokushin4life forum isn't around anymore to back me up.


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## Axiom

JR 137 said:


> , but to say there's zero head/face punching in Kyokushin is painting with an awfully wide brush.  .



Sorry. I meant of course in their main competition rules. Although I wouldn't rule out some crappy dojos with no face punching, based on my experience in WTF TaeKwonDo with a similiar no face rule set..


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## Axiom

There is of course also Shinken Shobu Kyokushin competitions, but they never gained international appeal, as far as I know.


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Out of curiousity, since my style does have face punching, which would you prefer of these two suboptimal choices before joining a boxing gym? --  a semi contact style with constant face punching. Or full contact with no face punching (Kyokushin competition rules) in transitioning to boxing? Which of the two is the smoothest transition in your opinion?



No idea.


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## Buka

This was a great thread to come home from work to.   I'd like to opine if I may.



Axiom said:


> Will they let me spar sooner if I have 4 years of "kickboxing-type" sparring? I really don't know if it's my thing or not until I spar.



The guys in boxing gyms love kick boxers.



Axiom said:


> The getting hit part is not a problem. The problem is that I would have to abandon my current school because I can't afford or have the time for both. Yet boxing is very tempting. If I absolutely can't stand the rule set and getting adjusted to the new stances, it's an easier decision which to choose. I think I would love boxing sparring but I just don't know.



In a boxing gym, the "getting hit" part is always a problem. It's not like other martial training. Honest.



Axiom said:


> I have no intentions letting them know anything about how I used to spar since it's irrelevant. Point is that I'm ready for sparring right away, and sparring is most likely the deciding factor.



I believe you're wise not to let them know about your experience. Just go, learn and have fun. They'll hook you up for sparring, just go with the flow.



MA_Student said:


> Yes....lol
> 
> There are 4 punches in boxing jab,cross,hook and uppercut and you can learn the basics of them in 1 lesson yes you can improve them and they won't be perfect after 1 lesson but you'll know what the punches are and you will have a fundamental idea of how to do them after a lesson



Replicating any particular movement of the arms and hands is fairly easy to do. The basic motion of a boxing punch, or a punch from any style of Martial Arts is an easy imitation. The nuances and applications are a different story. Have you ever shot pool, played billiards? Pretty simple movement of the arms and hands. Pretty easy to imitate - in an "air guitar" kind of way. At least until you go against a pool player in a game of straight pool. The fundamental idea you have at the onset will likely be something you warn your grandchildren about.



Axiom said:


> Nevermind the guard.. is the stance in this picture "acceptable" for a boxing coach?
> 
> http://www.wikihow.com/images/8/8c/Assume-a-Fighting-Stance-in-Taekwondo-Step-12.jpg



No. Oh, God no. It is a baseball player's stance in a rock fight.



Axiom said:


> Ah but you see, boxing is the art of punching without getting punched. But it's not fun being on the reciever end of that



There is no such thing as not getting punched in boxing. None, zip, nada.



Axiom said:


> But don't Kyokushin guys get shell-shocked by a knockout-style boxer? They have literaly zero face punching in their sparring. A heavy hitting boxer must be a nightmare for them, no?



If they were boxing, yes. No, if they were fighting using Kyokushin rules. And I don't know where the no contact face thing came from. The Kyokushin guys I know love contact. Eat it up. And, man, they can hit.

I spent some time as a kick boxer, professionally. Had some good teachers. Spent time as a ref, corner man, a judge and a trainer. Spent some time in boxing gyms, too, reffed some amateur matches, worked the corner in some Golden Gloves, filled in as a judge on occasion. Been fortunate enough to work with several world champions.

Boxers so love kick boxers. Because you are fighting in their sport. It is _usually_ nothing like you think going in. But if you train in a boxing gym, you're just going to get better at boxing in particular, and punching in general. 

Go have fun. And keep your hands up.


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## Axiom

Buka said:


> In a boxing gym, the "getting hit" part is always a problem..



I'm not intending to have any gym wars. I'm fine with hard contact but it's not the point for me. Winning is not the point either. Learning something new is!


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## Buka

Axiom said:


> I'm not intending to have any gym wars. I'm fine with hard contact but it's not the point for me. Winning is not the point either. Learning something new is!



You're going to have fun. You go, bro.


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## Axiom

Buka said:


> You're going to have fun. You go, bro.



I would probably ask for a refund if I dominate a seasoned guy in in his own ruleset


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## Buka

I am fairly confident you won't have to worry about said same. Just have fun and keep us posted.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> By semi contact in my case there could be hard contact, but not more than you feel it, brush it off and then continue. I actually don't mind getting punched in the face specifically. I don't think it hurts,  it's mostly a psychological thing. Hard strikes to the body are tougher personally for me.


You just haven't been hit in the head hard enough. Or enough times. After your first broken nose or your nth concussion, you'll see things differently. Personally, if I could go the rest of my without ever getting hit in the head again I would be perfectly fine with that (I got punched in the face Saturday though, so I don't see that being very likely...)


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## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> You just haven't been hit in the head hard enough. Or enough times. After your first broken nose or your nth concussion, you'll see things differently. Personally, if I could go the rest of my without ever getting hit in the head again I would be perfectly fine with that (I got punched in the face Saturday though, so I don't see that being very likely...)



I've had a swollen nose and sparred guys weight classes above (heavyweights) me due to lack of students. I can take a good punch on the chin and face.. Believe me.


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## Axiom

Also, it's not really an experience thing either. Some fighters have glass chins no matter how much they fight. The great Ernesto Hoost face planted when he got hit clean..It's amazing he managed to overshadow that achilles heal.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> I've had a swollen nose and sparred guys weight classes above (heavyweights) me due to lack of students. I can take a good punch on the chin and face.. Believe me.


My statement was more towards longevity, not disputing your ability to take a hit (as you stated, it depends on some inherit characteristic I don't fully understand more than anything else). If martial arts is a lifestyle for you, spending your free time getting punched in the head may diminish that lifestyle. CTE, for one, may become an issue. What is CTE?


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## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> My statement was more towards longevity, not disputing your manliness. If martial arts is a lifestyle for you, spending your free time getting punched in the head may diminish that lifestyle. CTE, for one, may become an issue. What is CTE?



Why would I get that from recreational sparring? Competition level sparring is the real danger.


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## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Why would I get that from recreational sparring? Competition level sparring is the real danger.


Whether it is recreational or competitive isn't the determining factor. How hard and/ or often you get hit in the head is. There is some evidence that a lot of small hits in a short period can be damaging.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Why would I get that from recreational sparring? Competition level sparring is the real danger.


You seem to be wanting full contact sparring to the head. If you do that for long enough, CTE's a real danger. Read through the link; it's not a result of full-on concussions, simple impacts to the head (getting rocked, or even just hit hard) over a long period of time is what causes it.


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## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> You seem to be wanting full contact sparring to the head. If you do that for long enough, CTE's a real danger. Read through the link; it's not a result of full-on concussions, simple impacts to the head (getting rocked, or even just hit hard) over a long period of time is what causes it.


Agreed. They are seeing it in soccer (football) players who head the ball a lot, which suggests getting rocked isn't necessary, and "hard" isn't as hard as once thought.


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## Danny T

Axiom said:


> Why would I get that from recreational sparring? Competition level sparring is the real danger.


It isn't about competitive level sparring it is about multiple head strikes.

Who is most at risk for CTE?
Every person diagnosed with CTE has one thing in common: *repetitive hits to the head*.
1 CTE is most often found in contact sport athletes and military veterans, likely because these are some of the only roles in modern life that involve purposeful, repetitive hits to the head. CTE has been found in individuals whose primary exposure to head impacts was through tackle football, the military, hockey, boxing & other fight sports, rugby, soccer, pro wrestling, and, baseball, basketball, intimate partner violence, and individuals with developmental disorders who engaged in head banging behaviors.


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## Axiom

Danny T said:


> It isn't about competitive level sparring it is about multiple head strikes.
> 
> Who is most at risk for CTE?
> Every person diagnosed with CTE has one thing in common: *repetitive hits to the head*.
> 1 CTE is most often found in contact sport athletes and military veterans, likely because these are some of the only roles in modern life that involve purposeful, repetitive hits to the head. CTE has been found in individuals whose primary exposure to head impacts was through tackle football, the military, hockey, boxing & other fight sports, rugby, soccer, pro wrestling, and, baseball, basketball, intimate partner violence, and individuals with developmental disorders who engaged in head banging behaviors.



Yeah well, from what I've been told, one can never learn boxing without actually sparring. And I see no point practising the martial arts if I limit it to no contact sparring.


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## Danny T

Ok. I don't disagree.

You asked and stated about CTE; "Why would I get that from recreational sparring? Competition level sparring is the real danger." 

So I gave you some info on why getting CTE is a concern from recreational sparring as well as other sports. Everything in life has a consequence. It is up to the individual to determine if the risk is something they are willing to live with. 

The limiting of contact sparring is a decision of your choosing. 

I'm 62...I still spar.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Yeah well, from what I've been told, one can never learn boxing without actually sparring. And I see no point practising the martial arts if I limit it to no contact sparring.


Absolutely, go spar. I'm just warning you the risks of full contact sparring with headshots, since you seemed to be discounting those in your posts.


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Yeah well, from what I've been told, one can never learn boxing without actually sparring. And I see no point practising the martial arts if I limit it to no contact sparring.



Learning to fight properly is going to contain risk. That is just the nature of a thing.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Learning to fight properly is going to contain risk. That is just the nature of a thing.


Agreed. Everybody's gotta decide where the compromise is right for them. Best fight prep with a short-term view is the hardest training. Long-term risk avoidance produces less fight prep. Somewhere between those two, we each make our choice.


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## Axiom

One thing I really need help with is my low adrenalin nowdays when it comes to sparring. I'm in a state of neither tired or excited, and I can't get myself riled up. This negatively impacts my performance. I just get on the defensive and don't really have more energy than just poping the guy with a jab now and then.

Is there something you recommend me taking before sparring to get me charged up? I'm a mental zoombie nowdays


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## Flying Crane

Axiom said:


> One thing I really need help with is my low adrenalin nowdays when it comes to sparring. I'm in a state of neither tired or excited, and I can't get myself riled up. This negatively impacts my performance. I just get on the defensive and don't really have more energy than just poping the guy with a jab now and then.
> 
> Is there something you recommend me taking before sparring to get me charged up? I'm a mental zoombie nowdays


Get some sleep and then find a way to get excited about the training.


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## Axiom

Flying Crane said:


> Get some sleep and then find a way to get excited about the training.



 Do you think being slightly underweight has something to do with these adrenalin dumps? It's as if I don't have the energy, especially midway through training. I'm not fatigued but simply "dull" if you know what I mean.


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Is there something you recommend me taking before sparring to get me charged up



What exactly are you asking for here?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Do you think being slightly underweight has something to do with these adrenalin dumps? It's as if I don't have the energy, especially midway through training. I'm not fatigued but simply "dull" if you know what I mean.


Is this something new for you? (Both the underweight and the lack of energy). If it is, then you might have something medically or mentally (depression, insomnia, etc.) wrong. If it's been going on, you must have been able to handle it for the last 4 years, so what have you been doing?


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## Flying Crane

Axiom said:


> Do you think being slightly underweight has something to do with these adrenalin dumps? It's as if I don't have the energy, especially midway through training. I'm not fatigued but simply "dull" if you know what I mean.


I don't know, and I suggest you see a doctor and make sure you don't have any underlying health problems.

Any suggestion i might make would be a complete guess, and would be irresponsible.  Don't look for medical advice on a martial arts discussion forum.  See a doctor.


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## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> Is this something new for you? (Both the underweight and the lack of energy). If it is, then you might have something medically or mentally (depression, insomnia, etc.) wrong. If it's been going on, you must have been able to handle it for the last 4 years, so what have you been doing?



I did not experience this 2 years ago. I do suffer from more permanent depressive, moody states nowdays. However, I want to do well in sparring, but my body and mind is not co-operating. The 21 year old I spar is so much more energetic, and I'm still only 28.. I shouldnt be slowing down yet. most fighters peak around 30.


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## Axiom

Tez3 said:


> What exactly are you asking for here?


L

Like chocolate or something. Coca-cola does not work. It makes me dizzy.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> I did not experience this 2 years ago. I do suffer from more permanent depressive, moody states nowdays. However, I want to do well in sparring, but my body and mind is not co-operating. The 21 year old I spar is so much more energetic, and I'm still only 28.. I shouldnt be slowing down yet. most fighters peak around 30.


28 isn't that far from 30, but what you're describing sounds more like the results of depression. I would definitely go to a doctor, tell them about your concerns, and if they do not find anything medically wrong, go to a therapist.


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## Axiom

kempodisciple said:


> 28 isn't that far from 30, but what you're describing sounds more like the results of depression. I would definitely go to a doctor, tell them about your concerns, and if they do not find anything medically wrong, go to a therapist.



Yeah, they thought I was functioning too well to be diagnosed with depression. Not that I would ever take any garbage that they offer due to the sideffects.


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> Yeah, they thought I was functioning too well to be diagnosed with depression. Not that I would ever take any garbage that they offer due to the sideffects.



Diet can do that to you as well. Lots of sugar highs and lows.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Axiom said:


> Yeah, they thought I was functioning too well to be diagnosed with depression. Not that I would ever take any garbage that they offer due to the sideffects.



As a disclaimer for this post and any additional posts; I am a therapist. However, I do not offer any official advice online, as I have never met you. I also do not diagnose online, and do not give treatment recommendations beyond "See a therapist" or "see a doctor".

That said, there is a global assessment of functioning (GAF), and depression (MDD, or dysthymia), which are two separate things. You can still have depression and function; either the person who diagnosed you, has a different view on this for whatever reason, or more likely there was more to his diagnosis (or lack of) then that. You can always get a second assessment if you felt an issue with the assessor, just like you can with a doctor. However, if the assessor felt you didn't have depression, that just increases the urging to go to a doctor, since there can be medical issues that present themselves like depression.

Regarding "taking any garbage that they offer", a psychiatrist will offer you medication, psychologists/psychotherapist/counselors/etc. are not able to do that. As I said, I can't state which would be better for you, or if you even need medication/psychotherapy, just informing you that in the mental health field, different providers offer different services.


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## MA_Student

Axiom said:


> One thing I really need help with is my low adrenalin nowdays when it comes to sparring. I'm in a state of neither tired or excited, and I can't get myself riled up. This negatively impacts my performance. I just get on the defensive and don't really have more energy than just poping the guy with a jab now and then.
> 
> Is there something you recommend me taking before sparring to get me charged up? I'm a mental zoombie nowdays


You don't need to be riled up to spar but best person to ask is a doctor or sports psychiatrist or something


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## Tez3

Axiom said:


> Yeah, they thought I was functioning too well to be diagnosed with depression. Not that I would ever take any garbage that they offer due to the sideffects.



To be blunt that is very silly, there are many people who owe their lives to what you call 'garbage'. Is depression easier to live with that any side effects which may or may not affect you? No, depression is crippling and life limiting, it is an agony for those that suffer so not taking treatment when offered is sheer stupidity.

As for taking something, chocolate and fizzy drinks aren't the answer. Talk to your doctor, you could have nothing wrong with you and need a kick up the bum BUT you could have anything from underactive thyroid, to aenemia to glandular fever and anything in between such as Lyme disease or diabetes. It can be something easily sorted or take a little longer, it could be taking meds or a mere change in diet. See your doctor.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Axiom said:


> I was functioning too well to be diagnosed with depression.


Instead of thinking about what you don't have, you should think about what you have. If you don't have serious pain 24/7 and your eyes can still see, you should feel that you are in heaven.

A depressed healthy person > a person has no arm > a person has no leg > a person can't see > a dead person


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## Gerry Seymour

Axiom said:


> Yeah, they thought I was functioning too well to be diagnosed with depression. Not that I would ever take any garbage that they offer due to the sideffects.


Lack of function, IIRC, isn't part of the necessary DSM criteria for depression, just a part of the grading toward severe.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> Lack of function, IIRC, isn't part of the necessary DSM criteria for depression, just a part of the grading toward severe.


Essentially, you have to meet a specific number of criteria for mild (5-6), moderate(7-8) or severe depression(9), but it can be fewer if you see a serious impairment in functioning or distress that requires a "heavier" diagnosis. That's true even for mild; if the person only has 4 symptoms, but the assessor can see significant distress or impairment, he/she can still diagnose it.

That's specifically for MDD. If it's a different depressive disorder, or your adding a qualifier, the qualifier may require something else (ie: for anxious distress, you only need two 'anxious' symptoms on top of MDD for 'MDD, X, with anxious distress, mild).


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## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> Essentially, you have to meet a specific number of criteria for mild (5-6), moderate(7-8) or severe depression(9), but it can be fewer if you see a serious impairment in functioning or distress that requires a "heavier" diagnosis. That's true even for mild; if the person only has 4 symptoms, but the assessor can see significant distress or impairment, he/she can still diagnose it.
> 
> That's specifically for MDD. If it's a different depressive disorder, or your adding a qualifier, the qualifier may require something else (ie: for anxious distress, you only need two 'anxious' symptoms on top of MDD for 'MDD, X, with anxious distress, mild).


Thanks! My memories of DSM are pretty old, and getting older all the time.


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## drop bear

Axiom said:


> I did not experience this 2 years ago. I do suffer from more permanent depressive, moody states nowdays. However, I want to do well in sparring, but my body and mind is not co-operating. The 21 year old I spar is so much more energetic, and I'm still only 28.. I shouldnt be slowing down yet. most fighters peak around 30.



The other aspect may be pretty simple. You may have lost the point of the whole exercise.

Without one you are just going through the motions.


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## TMA17

I went to a TKO gym last night.  It has a lot of heavy bags, a ring and octagon.  It was once a UFC gym.

I did their boxing routine last night.  Boxing is great and you can get fairly decent at it quickly. 

For my tastes now tho in my 40’s, I find traditional martial arts more fun.  Specifically WC.  For those that have done traditional martial arts most of their life I can see how changing to boxing would be fun. 

Boxing gets boring to me.  You will get in great shape though with boxing and really have an effective base.


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## KenpoMaster805

karate is good for you and boxing is good for you because it let ya focus


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## noobforlife

Coming from a Shorin Ryu background with a few years of boxing experience, I can tell you that having decent boxing will help your overall striking tons. The fact that I can choose to stand in the pocket to fight or use distance management that I learned from karate to land pot shots gives me a lot of confidence when I spar or compete.

I don't know how much full contact sparring your TMA school did (as mine did a lot of point sparring)---but there will be growing pains when you are learning how to box. Taking a punch to the face (repeatedly) is not something you can prepare for without a lot of practice.


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