# Begginner really needs help



## Drakeh (Nov 16, 2011)

Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.

So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts


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## Chris Parker (Nov 16, 2011)

I'd suggest reading this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?99678-Why-so-nasty

I'd also reiterate my responce there, as it applies directly to your question. You may think it's a bit harsh, but it's also the reality of the situation for you:



Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. First off, I don't think anyone here has ever really been "nasty" about DVD programs and their ilk, nor have they "trashed" them, but have given honest opinions of such training methods. And that opinion is rather universal amongst serious and experienced martial artists, namely that it just isn't a good idea. There are just too many issues with vital pieces of the instruction missing, correction not really being possible, and more. And the sad reality of such things are that if you aren't in a position to learn an art, then you aren't in a position to learn an art. You then have two choices; either move to where you can learn it and change your circumstances to allow it, or accept that you can't learn it at this point in time. That's not nasty, it's just reality. Think of it like attending Harvard - unless you are living near Harvard, you can't attend it. You can attend other universities, but not that one. And that is something that is not nasty, it's reality.
> 
> DVDs and books form good supplements to actual instruction, but cannot take the place of actual instruction by themselves. The big issue here, though, isn't whether or not DVD learning is a good idea or not, it's whether you can accept other people's opinions and what the reality of the situation is. You've just arrived on this site, resurrected a thread on "Nasty Instructors" 9 years after the last post to complain about someone who took you for a ride (a negative thread and post), and started this one, which is a complaint and negative statement on this entire site, as there is not much support for your approach. I kinda hate to be so blunt, but frankly, deal with it.
> 
> If you do not have access to the system you wish to study, you don't have access to the system you wish to study. That's really the long and the short of it. DVD learning is a poor substitute at best.


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## jks9199 (Nov 16, 2011)

Accept that it's not going to happen.  Not right now.  When you're a little older, and have more freedom in your schedule, and have finished school -- you can start training.  Until then, work on getting and staying in shape.  You can do that with no equipment at all; you don't need a fancy gym.  Bodyweight exercises, running, swimming...  and don't neglect developing flexibility!


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 16, 2011)

I want to take a give a different answer in that DVD's and other visual media (youtube) provide a phenomenal learning capability that was previously unavailable. To suggest that this tool is a poor substitute is to underestimate the value of this new media. The capabilities of seeing multiple ways to execute even simple techniques enables people to now see and spot differences in technique that would have previously taken years to study. Even self-perception can be brought to a new level by simply filming oneself.

 I would argue it isn't the technology that is the weakness; it is the lack social pressure that reinforces basic discipline. Without an obligations either to others (teacher / fellow students) or a monetary commitment (member dues) or an outside need (i.e. an immediate physical threat), the training will soon fall off.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 16, 2011)

They provide a greater opportunity to learn about many arts, and get a greater exposure to them, but they are just not good for learning an art itself. If you are already familiar with the system, they can certainly enhance your training, but learning from them in the first place is just not a good idea.

It's not actually down to the tools, it's down to the limitations and missing essential components of learning martial arts that this particular method of learning have. For instance, I took my guys through a series of knife defence techniques yesterday, and put everything that I would put in a DVD form in my demonstration of the technique. It was performed from various angles, the students were invited to move to a position where they could see clearly, all the pertinent points were covered, the essential aspects were explained, and so on. But then moving around the group, each person needed to have at least one or two things corrected, and each typically had something different that needed correction. That included things demonstrated but not stated, things where I had to reference previous lessons for that particular student, highlighting things that were in the explanation, rephrasing things, or adding particular details for a student to understand what the lesson was actually teachings. No DVD can provide that level or type of feedback, so even though my guys are experienced in the system (ranging from a few months to a number of years in the art), know my teaching style, this was the third week in a row we'd covered this type of material (the same principles applied in a slightly different scenario), not one of them would have actually learnt it properly from a DVD source, as they would pick up on some things, but not everything, and the learning happens in two ways in a martial art: application against a partner, and fine-tuning and correction on a personal level, attuned to the student, their abilities, and relative experience. This is just not possible in a DVD learning method.


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## frank raud (Nov 16, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I want to take a give a different answer in that DVD's and other visual media (youtube) provide a phenomenal learning capability that was previously unavailable. To suggest that this tool is a poor substitute is to underestimate the value of this new media. The capabilities of seeing multiple ways to execute even simple techniques enables people to now see and spot differences in technique that would have previously taken years to study. Even self-perception can be brought to a new level by simply filming oneself.
> 
> I would argue it isn't the technology that is the weakness; it is the lack social pressure that reinforces basic discipline. Without an obligations either to others (teacher / fellow students) or a monetary commitment (member dues) or an outside need (i.e. an immediate physical threat), the training will soon fall off.



There is no feedback from a video or DVD, no ability to correct your mistakes. You may believe you are executing the techniques EXACTLY as you see it, but it is extremely likely that as a beginner with NO knowledge of the martial arts, that your posture or stance is wrong. In the OP example, he has minimal boxing experience. When he filters what he sees on a DVD through the little that he knows, it is almost certain he will make mistakes(that would be picked up by an observant instructor) and ingrain bad techniques. One person with no knowledge of martial arts can't learn from a DVD, two people with no expereince can't correct each other as they have no basis to judge from. DVDs can be a great learning aid for someone with a solid base in an art, lousy way to learn. Ever do judo with someone who learned from a video? Or see what happens when a video trained guy shows up at a BJJ competition? Reality sets in.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 16, 2011)

Drakeh said:


> Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.
> 
> So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts



Change your circumstances so that you can get live martial arts training.  If you want it badly enough, you will find a way to make that happen; even if it means waiting until you are done with school and have the ability to move or change your schedule.  If you do not want it badly enough, you will continue to come up with excuses and reasons why you cannot train in person.  Part of the determining factor in your future success in martial arts training is how much pain you are willing to endure to get to the training.  If you will not train because it is not convenient, then you have already proven your worth as a student.  These words sound harsh, but I do not mean them in an angry or demeaning way.  Every aspect of your future training will be up to you.  Teachers can only teach, students must do the actual work.  Students who are unwilling or unaccustomed to hard work do not continue training.  If there is actual sacrifice involved in getting your life arranged so that you can attend martial arts training, you will already have made an investment in your success.  If it is just too difficult, then you are better not to have spent the money, because you surely would have quit the actual training.


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## frank raud (Nov 16, 2011)

Drakeh said:


> Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.
> 
> So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts


Start lifting weights, run. Make an agility ladder and use it. You will gain strength, speed, agility and co-ordination in preparation for when you are able to properly learn martial arts, with an instructor.

Irony is having an ad for a home study Muay Thai course in the OP's post.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 17, 2011)

I know that I'm taking a position that is inherently unpopular and counterintuitive, but please hear me out.

 If one of the skills that one needs to truly do martial arts (or any other) is the understanding of how the move works, where it fails, and what are the key aspects that lead to success or failure. This is why years of experience in a teacher matters.  Instructors learn by seeing so many students fail in so many ways that the instructor would not have ever thought of failing.  Seeing it done wrong, or at least differently, and in so many ways gives an instructor insight that they would have not had if they were only ever a student.  This understanding then provides feedback to the teacher and clarifies the technique in the teacher.  Almost every teacher says the same thing &#8211; teaching improves your basic skills.

Along with teaching, this self-awareness of technique can be gained by focused observing of others.  Not just mindless hours watching kung fu movies (not that there is anything wrong with that, just not helpful for this possibility), but studying of various ways that various people teach and execute the same method.  The ability to compare and contrast teachers, techniques, and styles is a well-established means to gain proficiency.  What has changed is the breadth and scope that of what one can compare with current technology.  Is video comparison as good as actually teaching a class?  It could be, and if done right, this video comparison could be better than teaching.

So, if one could gain the insight of a teacher, could one develop the proprioception necessary to execute the moves without outside expert feedback?  I don&#8217;t see why not.  There are many tools traditionally used that are designed to provide feedback without the instructor.  A wing chun dummy or even a simple speed bag both provide technique feedback without an instructor.  Adding in now the ability to actually see oneself via video, one could get the necessary feedback, combined with a &#8220;teachers eye&#8221; to bootstrap oneself up to a skilled martial artist.

Considering that the library of necessary images is only now being built, it is easy to say that since no one has learned fully by self-instruction, it must be impossible.  But, out there is a kid who learned math, language, and art via computer video lessons.   Is martial arts really that different?  I would say not, it presents a set of challenges, but there is nothing in this physical activity that prevents deep understanding via a video learning based process.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 17, 2011)

frank raud said:


> There is no feedback from a video or DVD, no ability to correct your mistakes. You may believe you are executing the techniques EXACTLY as you see it, but it is extremely likely that as a beginner with NO knowledge of the martial arts, that your posture or stance is wrong. In the OP example, he has minimal boxing experience. When he filters what he sees on a DVD through the little that he knows, it is almost certain he will make mistakes(that would be picked up by an observant instructor) and ingrain bad techniques. One person with no knowledge of martial arts can't learn from a DVD, two people with no expereince can't correct each other as they have no basis to judge from. DVDs can be a great learning aid for someone with a solid base in an art, lousy way to learn. Ever do judo with someone who learned from a video? Or see what happens when a video trained guy shows up at a BJJ competition? Reality sets in.



 I think the assumption you are making is that the self-student would repeat a flaw from a first attempt and repeat it often so that it became a learned pattern that would represent an ingrained flaw.  Given that you have probably seen students with ingrained flaws come from other training schools, this would be a fair assumption.  I would say that that flaw was trained in by the instructor (or not trained out &#8211; same thing).  Would a self-instructed student who is constantly questioning their technique have that same issue?  Probably, but this is no more or less likely than one would get from an instructor.

I was not saying &#8220;a&#8221; DVD; I was going for as many videos of all sources as could be found.

And, no, I have not seen a person trained by video show up to a BJJ competition.  Have you?


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## Cyriacus (Nov 17, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I know that I'm taking a position that is inherently unpopular and counterintuitive, but please hear me out.
> 
> If one of the skills that one needs to truly do martial arts (or any other) is the understanding of how the move works, where it fails, and what are the key aspects that lead to success or failure. This is why years of experience in a teacher matters.  Instructors learn by seeing so many students fail in so many ways that the instructor would not have ever thought of failing.  Seeing it done wrong, or at least differently, and in so many ways gives an instructor insight that they would have not had if they were only ever a student.  This understanding then provides feedback to the teacher and clarifies the technique in the teacher.  Almost every teacher says the same thing &#8211; teaching improves your basic skills.
> 
> ...



To the Bold Underlined: Yes, Yes it is. VERY Different.
To the Bold: The Classic Karate Kid didnt Teach Me Sliding Side Kick or Jumping Back Kick, but damn the Combination is Effective. Note that this isnt relevant to the Conversation. Im just saying that while You cannot Learn Kung Fu from a Kung Fu Movie, You can learn Basic Combinations that perhaps arent as Obvious in what Youre Learning. Thats actually quite Acceptable, I think.

Ill say what I said in the Other Thread though, since DVDs seem to be the Topic of the Week apparently. And if I hadnt seen more than one of You Whitebelts Online at the same time, Id almost Suspect it was the same Person, given that right after a Thread about someone asking why People are nasty about DVD Learning when He cant get to any Organisations He wants in a timely manner, a Beginner hasnt a Training Hall within 30 Minutes makes a Thread, and someone else suggests DVDs 

--On Topic. And that was not an Accusation by the way, You Conclusion Jumping Humans. Im just commenting on how Unusual it is. But again; Multiple of You Online at once. So while its Possible, I dont care enough to look harder, and it doesnt really matter anyway, because the Conversation wouldnt be any different 


Cyriacus said:


> Noones being Nasty, theyre being Blunt, instead of repeating the same Story over again.
> 
> Instructed Training > Referential Training.
> Referential Training + Capable Individual = Good Result.
> ...


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## Cyriacus (Nov 17, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I think the assumption you are making is that the self-student would repeat a flaw from a first attempt and repeat it often so that it became a learned pattern that would represent an ingrained flaw.  Given that you have probably seen students with ingrained flaws come from other training schools, this would be a fair assumption.  I would say that that flaw was trained in by the instructor (or not trained out &#8211; same thing).  Would a self-instructed student who is constantly questioning their technique have that same issue?  Probably, but this is no more or less likely than one would get from an instructor.
> 
> *This is also too Generalised. This just means the Student had a crummy inefficient Instructor. Not that Instructed Teaching can be levelled out as a Result of that.*
> 
> ...



Just adding a bit of Discussion Aspecto.


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## frank raud (Nov 17, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I know that I'm taking a position that is inherently unpopular and counterintuitive, but please hear me out.
> 
> If one of the skills that one needs to truly do martial arts (or any other) is the understanding of how the move works, where it fails, and what are the key aspects that lead to success or failure. This is why years of experience in a teacher matters. Instructors learn by seeing so many students fail in so many ways that the instructor would not have ever thought of failing. Seeing it done wrong, or at least differently, and in so many ways gives an instructor insight that they would have not had if they were only ever a student. This understanding then provides feedback to the teacher and clarifies the technique in the teacher. Almost every teacher says the same thing &#8211; teaching improves your basic skills.
> 
> ...



I would hope that before someone STARTS teaching , that they are very familiar with the course of instruction being given, be it math or martial arts. Experience in teaching reinforces lessons already learned by the teacher, allowing the teacher to perhaps present the material in a slightly different way, to pass that knowledge and understanding on to their students. That is feedback, both tacticile and cerebrel, something a DVd/Video/computer program can't give. Is there someone out there who can acquire this kind of knowledge by just watching a video? Probably, but they qualify as a freak of nature. There are martial artists who can see a technique once, and then perform the kata or waza exactly as their instructor showed them. Do you base a class curriculum off of these gifted people, when the majority of people struggle to memorise the sequence of a kata? The OP is a teenager with limited experience in boxing, are you suggesting that somehow he/she has developed the skills and ability to develop a "teachers eye" in a subject where they have no experience?


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 17, 2011)

How many times, even as an advanced underbelt, have I been asked _"Am I doing this right?"_ by a newer student who is attempting to perform what they have just been shown by our sensei.  Even from my meager experience, I see what they are doing wrong and correct it.  But to ask them, they are doing exactly what they were shown.

They repeat after I have corrected them, they do it wrong again.  I correct again.  They do it wrong again.  I correct again.  We try various ways of explaining to each other what it is that they are doing versus what they should be doing, until something clicks and they start to do it right.   Awkward and slow, but the move is essentially correct.  Next week, they'll be doing it wrong again, but they will be more easily correctable and they'll start doing it right more quickly.  Eventually, they won't need correction anymore for that particular move.  Then it is just practice.

Over time, however, they'll start to drift out again.  The older more sloppy ways will start to come back in.  Others will notice it and say something, and they'll self-correct.  After enough of those corrections, they'll stop drifting out.

Now show me the video that looks at your performance and notes your deficiencies.  Show me the student who knows they are not performing exactly what they saw on the video; the fact is, they think they are performing it just as it was shown; and they are not.  The closest thing I have seen to attempts to address that deficiency are schemes by which the student videos themselves performing the movement and send it to the instructor, who observes it and offers corrections.  I suppose it might work; but it is by necessity slow and tedious.  Plus, I can show you a block much more simply if I can grab your arm and position thusly, as opposed to saying _"Higher...no, lower than that.  Now turn your palm inward slightly, no not that far. Up a little, no down.  Good.  Now ground yourself and feel the force of my blow flow through you and down your rear leg into the floor."_  Yeah.  Not fun.  

I am not an expert, but I have some experience in helping newer students, plus my own memories of the errors I made and continue to make while believing I am doing exactly what I was shown.

Video learning by itself is not effective for martial arts; this is my opinion, colored by my experience for that it may be worth.  If you think otherwise, that's OK.  You do what you want to do and I will do what I want to do.

Honestly, and without pointing fingers or accusing anyone of anything, I find it difficult to believe that anyone who has ever had one day of actual training in a real life training facility doesn't get this.  If you've had 'real' training and still think a book or video will suffice instead of (not talking about in addition to) real training, I just don't understand.  I do have some question as to whether or not those advocating video-only training have ever stepped foot into a real dojo.


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## wildcat91 (Nov 17, 2011)

Drakeh said:


> Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.
> 
> So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts



Where are you that there is only one school and it only has one possible time for you to attend class.  Keep looking around.  Possible someone in the area that offers private instruction.  Look for local clubs in nearby universities.  Check out weekend seminars. Remember in almost everthing you want to do in life you have to make certain sacrefices and compromises.  Just need to weigh whats most important to you.  Good Luck


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## Chris Parker (Nov 17, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I know that I'm taking a position that is inherently unpopular and counterintuitive, but please hear me out.
> 
> If one of the skills that one needs to truly do martial arts (or any other) is the understanding of how the move works, where it fails, and what are the key aspects that lead to success or failure. This is why years of experience in a teacher matters.  Instructors learn by seeing so many students fail in so many ways that the instructor would not have ever thought of failing.  Seeing it done wrong, or at least differently, and in so many ways gives an instructor insight that they would have not had if they were only ever a student.  This understanding then provides feedback to the teacher and clarifies the technique in the teacher.  Almost every teacher says the same thing &#8211; teaching improves your basic skills.
> 
> ...



Except that that is not what is being discussed here at all. The complete novice student does not have the eyes of an experienced instructor, nor necessarily even the insight to see the differences between interpretations, let alone the reasons for such changes. For someone learning from the beginning, watching multiple forms of an art from multiple sources can be downright confusing, not enlightening. That's something that a more experienced practitioner can get out of DVDs/you-tube etc, and is what I was getting at when I said earlier that they are a great source for learning about a range of arts, or variations, not for learning an art itself. And as this thread is started by an individual wanting advice on a starting point, not an instructor wanting further research or reference material.

In terms of your hypothetical kid, it's vastly different; the learning method is different, the compartmentalisation of the skillset is vastly different, the training method is different, the ways of measuring success is very different, and more. And in terms of the punching bag and wooden dummy providing feedback, well, yeah, but not in the same way or in the same detail. It's a very different thing that we're talking about with a teachers feedback.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I think the assumption you are making is that the self-student would repeat a flaw from a first attempt and repeat it often so that it became a learned pattern that would represent an ingrained flaw.  Given that you have probably seen students with ingrained flaws come from other training schools, this would be a fair assumption.  I would say that that flaw was trained in by the instructor (or not trained out &#8211; same thing).  Would a self-instructed student who is constantly questioning their technique have that same issue?  Probably, but this is no more or less likely than one would get from an instructor.
> 
> I was not saying &#8220;a&#8221; DVD; I was going for as many videos of all sources as could be found.
> 
> And, no, I have not seen a person trained by video show up to a BJJ competition.  Have you?



Honestly, I think you're assuming a fair amount about Frank's comments there. The assumption that he is making is that mistakes in interpretation, execution, application, observation, and practice of the video techniques would not be corrected by an outside source (a teacher), and therefore would be repeated and ingrained. I didn't see anything in his post that implied poor students coming from another school. And, frankly, Franks comment stands pretty well (well, it was very similar to mine, really), so I'm on his side here.


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## frank raud (Nov 17, 2011)

I have 25 years of continous martial arts experience, I would not presume that with my expereince I could learn Shotokan via DVd(I have almost no experience in Karate), nor could I learn any style of Kung Fu(I have 0 experience in CMA). Can I pick up techniques and pointers on judo/jiu jitsu? Yes, but that is the area I have experience in.


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## mook jong man (Nov 17, 2011)

A wooden dummy will give you feed back , if you hit it will bounce back.
But only an experienced instructor can tell you whether you generated that force in the correct manner to cause the reaction in the dummy.

An experienced instructor can tell by the sound you are making on the arms if you are doing it correctly or not.
The internet is full of idiots who think it is some sort of conditioning tool for your arms and set about going a million miles an hour trying to smash the crap out of the dummy and snap the arms off.

It is a much more sophisticated tool than that and one which needs to be taught by a qualified Wing Chun instructor , fine if your from some other style and your just having a play around on it but don't for one second think that what you are doing is Wing Chun and that you are using it properly as taught in the Wing Chun system.


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## frank raud (Nov 17, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I think the assumption you are making is that the self-student would repeat a flaw from a first attempt and repeat it often so that it became a learned pattern that would represent an ingrained flaw. Given that you have probably seen students with ingrained flaws come from other training schools, this would be a fair assumption. I would say that that flaw was trained in by the instructor (or not trained out  same thing). Would a self-instructed student who is constantly questioning their technique have that same issue? Probably, but this is no more or less likely than one would get from an instructor.
> 
> I was not saying a DVD; I was going for as many videos of all sources as could be found.
> 
> And, no, I have not seen a person trained by video show up to a BJJ competition. Have you?


 Having no feedback from a more experienced teacher, why would you expect a raw novice to be able to self correct? If you don't know what you are looking for to correct, how can you be expected to correct it? Interesting how you compare a self taught student to one who has had a lousy instructor.


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## JohnEdward (Nov 17, 2011)

wildcat91 said:


> Where are you that there is only one school and it only has one possible time for you to attend class.  Keep looking around.  Possible someone in the area that offers private instruction.  Look for local clubs in nearby universities.  Check out weekend seminars. Remember in almost everthing you want to do in life you have to make certain sacrefices and compromises.  Just need to weigh whats most important to you.  Good Luck



I would also add having patience. It might not happen right away or as quickly as you like. Patience does pay off.


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2011)

<shrugs>  I have started to use video as a teaching tool with some of my more motivated students.  Right after they promote to a new rank, I give them a DVD with some kata, drills, and mental concepts they will learn next in class.  They are supposed to watch the video a few times on their own.  I find the ones that have done so are considerably ahead of the ones that haven't as would be expected, and I think it beneficial and will continue to experiment and push the envelope in this way.  Of course, this is not a 'distance learning' thing - the DVD media works hand in hand with my in-class instruction.

Now do I think someone could use one of my videos to teach them something useful without the benefit of my guidance?  Well, to an extent.  I give a lot more detail on some topics I filmed than others.  For example, I filmed a 1 hour video just entirely on stances and movement within them.  A self-aware student with the use of mirrors and his own video camera can accomplish a lot watching my video over and over again while trying to follow the directions within it.  Of course, most people aren't that patient or self-aware and wouldn't be capable of learning this way - and in the end, we still boil down to the fact that it's a lot easier and better to just receive tuition in person to begin with.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 17, 2011)

But, to put it back in the context of the OP, do you think you can give the DVDs to a raw beginner and get a good result without instruction?


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> But, to put it back in the context of the OP, do you think you can give the DVDs to a raw beginner and get a good result without instruction?



Depends on what we mean by 'good'.  It's such a subjective term.  

No, I don't think a true beginner learning entirely by DVD with no in-person corrections could attain a level of proficiency in my system (Goju-ryu) to where I would even promote them out of white belt.  On the other hand, I think this same beginner, given the correct personal qualities to be able to learn this way, could very well come out of the experience with a rudimentary understanding of generic karate techniques.  He likely won't have the particular characteristics that makes Goju-ryu powerful, but he very well could be on par with or even better than many casual commercial dojo students in technical proficiency if we don't consider the practical application aspect.  I realize that's a rather low bar to set, but there it is.

I am not supportive of using DVD to learn from entirely without the support of a dojo and teacher behind it.  However, I have no problems at all with introducing new information to my students through video paired with my own lessons, and to be honest I would be intrigued to see if a complete beginner could digest anything useful if I sent them home with a disc with instructions to practice the information within it for a month before coming back.  (Yeah, I know, it'll never happen.)


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## Chris Parker (Nov 17, 2011)

Yep, agreed, it's a very low bar, but it's realistic. That's the best you could hope for by using DVDs as your educational source (no instructor), and honestly, you're not guaranteed anything like that level of success!


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## WC_lun (Nov 17, 2011)

To the OP, perhaps list what part of the world you are in.  Maybe one of the forum members will be able to point you to a good instractor nearer to you than 30km.

Tactile input is neccesary for martial training.  If you do not have this with skilled instruction, you are not really learning martial arts.  Martial movements perhaps, but not the actual application of sytematic learning for the purpose of combat.  This is a hard truth for some people to hear, especially those with a great desire to learn, but not the resources.


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## Nomad (Nov 17, 2011)

Considering the number of "raw beginners" I've worked with over the years that had real difficulty in seeing that they were moving the wrong foot or hand in a basic step forward punch drill (with me beside them showing them how to do it), I hardly think that anyone without an extensive martial arts background could learn Unsu (a single, high level kata) from DVD's or Youtube (and even then, I'd question their understanding of what they were doing, at least). 

In my experience, martial arts students start getting good once they at least start to see the mistakes they're making... which can take awhile depending on the student.  Before that, they're often oblivious, and need to be constantly corrected by someone who knows what they're looking for.  

Also agree strongly with WC_lun that the tactile feedback is a vital component of martial arts training.  Being uke to a talented instructor feels very different from working with a partner at your own level, and it _should_, as they're doing a bunch of subtle things differently (with balance, weight, torque, breath, and so on) that you likely haven't figured out yet.  

It's also impossible to call what you're doing martial arts if you don't hit and get hit (at least occasionally).  Otherwise, you're just fooling yourself that you know what either one is.


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Depends on what we mean by 'good'.  It's such a subjective term.
> 
> No, I don't think a true beginner learning entirely by DVD with no in-person corrections could attain a level of proficiency in my system (Goju-ryu) to where I would even promote them out of white belt.  On the other hand, I think this same beginner, given the correct personal qualities to be able to learn this way, could very well come out of the experience with a rudimentary understanding of generic karate techniques.  He likely won't have the particular characteristics that makes Goju-ryu powerful, but he very well could be on par with or even better than many casual commercial dojo students in technical proficiency if we don't consider the practical application aspect.  I realize that's a rather low bar to set, but there it is.
> 
> I am not supportive of using DVD to learn from entirely without the support of a dojo and teacher behind it.  However, I have no problems at all with introducing new information to my students through video paired with my own lessons, and to be honest I would be intrigued to see if a complete beginner could digest anything useful if I sent them home with a disc with instructions to practice the information within it for a month before coming back.  (Yeah, I know, it'll never happen.)



I often teach what seems to be the same lesson to all students, from the newest who barely can form a stance or punch to a black belt with years of experience behind him.  The level they learn the lesson depends on their own ability and understanding.  But, when that material is revisited somewhat down the line, each student will add to their previous knowledge. 

In a similar way, sometimes as we work on forms, everyone watches each other perform.  So, a brand new student is watching that black belt perform the Line Form... even though it'll literally be years before they learn it.  But they'll have seen it -- and seen some corrections on it -- many times before they actually start learning it.  I've seen this help them understand the form better and sometimes learn it more rapidly than when I was a student.  (I started in a fairly new club, and we all were learning some of the forms at close to the same point.  It was several years before we had a possibility of someone working on the advanced forms at the same time as others were learning beginner forms.)

Having a glimpse ahead can be beneficial, and give insights into current training.  DVDs can be a useful supplement, or refresher.  But they're not a substitute for actually learning from someone who can make the myriad tweaks and adjustments.  Yes -- every student must learn to that "insight" or ability to feel what the proper stances, punches, kicks, flows or connections for themselves.  But it's hard to do that without someone showing you the correct way, so that you can learn to replicate it.  It's not impossible...  but it's certainly not easy.  Kind of like it's possible that shaking a box of Scrabble tiles out onto the floor will produce a meaningful sentence.  But it ain't likely!


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## Indagator (Nov 17, 2011)

Drakeh said:


> Hello everyone. I came here because I really need help. I am teen. I used to train boxing (for few months), but classes were canceled because trainer/teacher died. I really want to learn martial arts but I have huge problem. Now closest martial art classes are 30 km away from place were I live. I cant go to them because classes start before my normal(school) classes end. I asked friends for help. Thay told me that they cant help me because ether thay have other things to do (for example play basketball) or go to evening/night classes (which starts at noon instead of morning). They only helped because they gave me tons of training dvds.
> 
> So my questions is. Can someone suggest me sth? I really want to learn martial arts



I travel an 80km round trip to train. At one point I was making the trip twice a week. Sometimes it can only be once a month, in which case I work on the basics and solo training.
In my case, though, I contact the instructor directly and we arrange times when we can mutually fit in training. So one could certainly say there's a wee hand of providence in there 
I have a friend also who travels a few towns over to train in Wing Chun who has a special arrangement to train privately with the instructor.
Maybe you could try contacting the person who runs the school you wish to train in and see if something can be worked out, or if he/she is willing and able to provide private classes, or arrange a way for you to begin learning.

How old are you though? Sometimes it just takes patience. I didn't begin training in ninjutsu until seven years after I had first wanted to train in it. I had a journey which taught me many lessons along the way, and personally if I could choose between having seven years of training as the person I was back then, or beginning training when I did and at the time and point in my life, with the maturity and lessons my path had earned me, I would definitely choose the latter. Timing can be important, and patience is not only a virtue but a boundless resource of reward. The wait may teach you things, your desire may grow or burn out, and your perspective will definitely change with time.
If you have to wait, wait happily in the knowledge that what you are waiting for is _worth_ waiting on. If it is truly what you want to do, then when the time is right there will be a way!

DVDs can be good as a supplemental resource to live training, or as entertainment, but it is always best to learn via live transmission of an art, imho.

Good luck.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 18, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Except that that is not what is being discussed here at all.


I politely disagree.  As the person posting the outrageous statement (almost troll like) in the thread, this is what I am discussing and most seem to be disagree with.



Chris Parker said:


> The complete novice student does not have the eyes of an experienced instructor, nor necessarily even the insight to see the differences between interpretations, let alone the reasons for such changes. For someone learning from the beginning, watching multiple forms of an art from multiple sources can be downright confusing, not enlightening. That's something that a more experienced practitioner can get out of DVDs/you-tube etc, and is what I was getting at when I said earlier that they are a great source for learning about a range of arts, or variations, not for learning an art itself. And as this thread is started by an individual wanting advice on a starting point, not an instructor wanting further research or reference material.


 
Of course the complete novice has no understanding of what they should look for.  It is, actually far worse than that, see the DunningKruger effect.   (A great little spice for an argument by the way). 

How does someone get the differences in interpretations or the reasons for such changes?  Observing as broad a collection of interpretations as possible is a key for getting that insight.  That is what a student does when they become a teacher, and with technology, a new student can now see many more versions in a week than they could have before in a year.  Plus, the technology is completely patient.  A move can be watched over and over and over in a way that no instructor would ever demonstrate.  Two peoples interpretation of the same moves can be seen over and over and over until the differences can be spotted.

It most certainly would be confusing at first.  But, with focused attention, the student would begin to see first the differences and with more comparisons begin to see not just differences but which ones are better. 



Chris Parker said:


> In terms of your hypothetical kid, it's vastly different; the learning method is different, the compartmentalisation of the skillset is vastly different, the training method is different, the ways of measuring success is very different, and more. And in terms of the punching bag and wooden dummy providing feedback, well, yeah, but not in the same way or in the same detail. It's a very different thing that we're talking about with a teachers feedback.



 The hypothetical student would need a great deal of proprioception.  Awareness of a where a hand is or what the angle of the arm is in a form is taught not just thru the instructor pointing out that it is wrong, but from the student building their awareness.  This underappreciated skill is a key contributing factor to how quickly a student can train.  To our hypothetical kid, this awareness would need to be cultivated not as an afterthought, as it so often is, but as a key part of the instruction.

(Please note  in my first post, I said this training wouldnt work, but for different reasons).

Does something like this exist for martial arts today?  Broadly  no.  It is being built for other human activities with some, especially those with simple repeated activities.  Probably the easiest to see demonstrated would be golf video instruction (although many would say the golf swing isnt exactly simple).  (Yes I am about to use golf as a simile, and yes, it is a simile, Im not saying they are exactly the same thing.)  Golfers use tools like http://cswing.com/swinglibrary.html to compare their swing to the pros.  For those unfamiliar with these tools, you film yourself hitting a golf ball and then superimpose a pro golfer next to you and compare Tiger Woods here vs. you here.  Phrases like dont come over the top on that swing or you are too much outside in dont work nearly as well as the cold hearted video showing you next to someone doing it right.  This video is a feedback tool that many successful golfers use.  (That and launch monitors)  Along the same line, I know of several scratch golfers who can watch a pro swing and call out if the shot is left or right before the camera pans out.  How?  Film study.  They have watched thousands of similar shots and can see exactly where the flaw is.  These same golfers also know when they hit a shot left or right exactly what they did wrong, based only on the flight of the ball and their own increased proprioception.  Think of how this technology can be put to use in martial arts training.

Many dojos have mirrors, why not video cameras as well?

Should the OP buy a DVD and learn everything on it?  No (*).  Should the OP take every advantage of video, even as a beginner?  Yes.




(*) It may be better than nothing, but there are lots of other alternatives that should be explored.


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## frank raud (Nov 18, 2011)

So because an experienced golfer can instantly judge where a ball will go(left or right) based on observation(and their EXPERIENCE), you believe someone with no EXPERIENCE can figure out not only how to correctly do a martial arts technique, but can judge between multiple videos/DVDs as to who is performing the technique/kata/poomse/hyung better than the other videos they have observed?
What is your actual martial arts training background? How many martial arts have YOU learned by video? If there is a martial art you have learned strictly by video, would you be willing to put up a video of same to be critiqued by experienced martial artists in the same style? Or is this all hypothetical and something you think may be available in the future, which makes it irrelevant to the OP on this thread?


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2011)

frank raud said:


> you believe someone with no EXPERIENCE can figure out not only how to correctly do a martial arts technique, but can judge between multiple videos/DVDs as to who is performing the technique/kata/poomse/hyung better than the other videos they have observed?



Yes, I believe this is possible.  A complete newbie won't be able to view kata videos of (say) Morio Higaonna and be able to state why Higaonna Sensei is so technically outstanding, but he would be able to tell the level of quality of Higaonna Sensei when contrasting his performance versus a more mediocre player.  Heck, the parents in my church class who don't train at all can see the difference between kid A and kid B even though they might not be able to articulate what separates one from the other.

I should add that I'm referring to the second part of your sentence quoted above.  I do think figuring out how to execute technique entirely through video instruction is a much harder proposition, yet still not impossible for the right person, assuming the media he is working with has the appropriate level  of detail for the content he is trying to absorb.  Something like a reverse punch or a front stance is imminently learnable from a GOOD video.  Learning the Chen Tai Chi Chuan form... well, not so much.


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## frank raud (Nov 18, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Yes, I believe this is possible. A complete newbie won't be able to view kata videos of (say) Morio Higaonna and be able to state why Higaonna Sensei is so technically outstanding, but he would be able to tell the level of quality of Higaonna Sensei when contrasting his performance versus a more mediocre player. Heck, the parents in my church class who don't train at all can see the difference between kid A and kid B even though they might not be able to articulate what separates one from the other.



Fair enough that someone could recognize Higaonna Sensei as superior to others, but as you state, they dont have the ability to disect why he is so outstanding. So they can make a subjective observation(this one is better than that one), but not an objective observation(this one is better because). And that ability comes from experience.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Fair enough that someone could recognize Higaonna Sensei as superior to others, but as you state, they dont have the ability to disect why he is so outstanding. So they can make a subjective observation(this one is better than that one), but not an objective observation(this one is better because). And that ability comes from experience.



I have no real quarrel with that.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 18, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I politely disagree.  As the person posting the outrageous statement (almost troll like) in the thread, this is what I am discussing and most seem to be disagree with.


 
However the context of DVD learning in this thread comes from the OP, where our thread starter is a teenager with a bit of boxing, and no way of getting to a martial art school. He has no experience in martial arts, so putting forth DVD learning as viable based on previous experience being applied to the DVDs and their content really is not what is being discussed here.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Of course the complete novice has no understanding of what they should look for.  It is, actually far worse than that, see the Dunning&#8211;Kruger effect.   (A great little spice for an argument by the way).


 
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect... but I don't see how it supports the idea of DVD training for an inexperienced beginner. Which is the thrust of this thread.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> How does someone get the differences in interpretations or the reasons for such changes?  Observing as broad a collection of interpretations as possible is a key for getting that insight.  That is what a student does when they become a teacher, and with technology, a new student can now see many more versions in a week than they could have before in a year.  Plus, the technology is completely patient.  A move can be watched over and over and over in a way that no instructor would ever demonstrate.  Two peoples interpretation of the same moves can be seen over and over and over until the differences can be spotted.


 
But without the experience leading up to that, how would the student know what the differences mean, or which are good, and why? I mean, I can put up a range of different versions of a range of systems that you are unfamiliar with... can you tell me which is good, which should be followed, which is correct, and why?

Tell you what, let's try. Following are a few examples of a kata called "Koku". It's the first kata in one of the Ninjutsu schools, Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, and each example here is from either one of the heads of an organisation (Hatsumi Sensei of the Bujinkan, Tanemura Sensei of the Genbukan) or is an example of "this is how it's done" (from the Akban organisation, originally from the Bujinkan).





Hatsumi Sensei - Bujinkan





Tanemura Sensei - Genbukan (Koku is the first technique shown, 0:14-0:17)





Akban organisation.

Now, I can see where the variations are, which group is doing things differently, where it's accurate, and where it's not, as well as pick up some major mistakes. How'd you do?



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> It most certainly would be confusing at first.  But, with focused attention, the student would begin to see first the differences and with more comparisons begin to see not just differences but which ones are better.



Just because they can see differences doesn't mean they can tell which is the one they should copy, or why. Additionally, they may spot the differences, but unless someone is pointing out the errors to the student themselves, there is no guarantee that they would ever notice such things in themselves, let alone correct them.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> The hypothetical student would need a great deal of proprioception.  Awareness of a where a hand is or what the angle of the arm is in a form is taught not just thru the instructor pointing out that it is wrong, but from the student building their awareness.  This underappreciated skill is a key contributing factor to how quickly a student can train.  To our hypothetical kid, this awareness would need to be cultivated not as an afterthought, as it so often is, but as a key part of the instruction.


 
No, I don't think it's underappreciated, we're just saying that such awareness is also taught (by your instructor pointing things out to you, you become aware of them, and then you can start on the journey of self correction.. a DVD doesn't provide that). And none of this changes the fact that the method of learning maths etc is completely removed from the method and process of learning a martial art.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> (Please note &#8211; in my first post, I said this training wouldn&#8217;t work, but for different reasons).


 
No, what you said was that DVDs were an underestimated learning tool, and the problem was without a teacher to provide structure the potential student would get bored... really not the same thing that we're saying in terms of it not working....



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Does something like this exist for martial arts today?  Broadly &#8211; no.  It is being built for other human activities with some, especially those with simple repeated activities.  Probably the easiest to see demonstrated would be golf video instruction (although many would say the golf swing isn&#8217;t exactly simple).  (Yes I am about to use golf as a simile, and yes, it is a simile, I&#8217;m not saying they are exactly the same thing.)


 
Well, firstly, that's a very different skill set again. Golf and martial arts really don't have anything in common in terms of how they are learnt. It's not just that they aren't the same thing, it's that they bear almost no relation to each other.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Golfers use tools like http://cswing.com/swinglibrary.html to compare their swing to the pros.  For those unfamiliar with these tools, you film yourself hitting a golf ball and then superimpose a pro golfer next to you and compare &#8220;Tiger Woods here&#8221; vs. &#8220;you here&#8221;.  Phrases like &#8220;don&#8217;t come over the top on that swing&#8221; or &#8220;you are too much outside in&#8221; don&#8217;t work nearly as well as the cold hearted video showing you next to someone doing it right.



And all of this is based on a previous amount of experience and skill in playing golf. Still not something that will work for martial arts... it's a lot more than just getting your arm in the right place.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> This video is a feedback tool that many successful golfers use.  (That and launch monitors)  Along the same line, I know of several scratch golfers who can watch a pro swing and call out if the shot is left or right before the camera pans out.  How?  Film study.  They have watched thousands of similar shots and can see exactly where the flaw is.  These same golfers also know when they hit a shot left or right exactly what they did wrong, based only on the flight of the ball and their own increased proprioception.  Think of how this technology can be put to use in martial arts training.


 
I've been to BJJ tournaments and, before the match started, picked who would win, and how, as well as roughly how long it would take. How? Simple, I have experience in these things. Same with your guys watching the golf... it's more to do with their experience, not just watching tapes. Honestly, your simile is desperately flawed.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Many dojos have mirrors, why not video cameras as well?


 
That's a completely different thing to what we're discussing, though. Videoing yourself as a form of self critique, using mirrors etc, fine, great, advised, in fact. But what we're discussing is using DVDs to learn when you have no experience. That's what the OP was asking about, and that's the context we're discussing things in.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Should the OP buy a DVD and learn everything on it?  No (*).  Should the OP take every advantage of video, even as a beginner?  Yes.



 They can get some interest out of it, but that's about it. As I said when you first posted, videos can be great to learn about different arts, not to actually learn them. And an absolute beginner? No chance, frankly.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> (*) It may be better than nothing, but there are lots of other alternatives that should be explored.



This is not an advised one.



frank raud said:


> So because an experienced golfer can instantly judge where a ball will go(left or right) based on observation(and their EXPERIENCE), you believe someone with no EXPERIENCE can figure out not only how to correctly do a martial arts technique, but can judge between multiple videos/DVDs as to who is performing the technique/kata/poomse/hyung better than the other videos they have observed?
> What is your actual martial arts training background? How many martial arts have YOU learned by video? If there is a martial art you have learned strictly by video, would you be willing to put up a video of same to be critiqued by experienced martial artists in the same style? Or is this all hypothetical and something you think may be available in the future, which makes it irrelevant to the OP on this thread?



Seconded!



dancingalone said:


> Yes, I believe this is possible.  A complete newbie won't be able to view kata videos of (say) Morio Higaonna and be able to state why Higaonna Sensei is so technically outstanding, but he would be able to tell the level of quality of Higaonna Sensei when contrasting his performance versus a more mediocre player.  Heck, the parents in my church class who don't train at all can see the difference between kid A and kid B even though they might not be able to articulate what separates one from the other.
> 
> I should add that I'm referring to the second part of your sentence quoted above.  I do think figuring out how to execute technique entirely through video instruction is a much hard proposition, yet still not impossible for the right person.



I'd be interested in seeing what you think is the good, bad, or indifferent of the clips I posted above as well... which one should be followed, and why? What's wrong with the others? Or should you do something that's a compromise between each of them?


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> I'd be interested in seeing what you think is the good, bad, or indifferent of the clips I posted above as well... which one should be followed, and why? What's wrong with the others? Or should you do something that's a compromise between each of them?



I'll play even though the exercise might not mean that much since I am an experienced martial artist rather than a rank beginner.  

I prefer the Genbukan video of the three.  It's a newer video and the technique is performed slowly enough to where I can see what Tanemura Sensei is doing.  He appears to be stable enough although I would not raise up onto my ball of the foot on the supporting leg as he does when he kicks.  Perhaps there is a reason he does that, and a good instructional video would clearly state why for the watcher.  I also had a hard time understanding Tanemura Sensei but he is also offering some performance tips at this seminar, which is more than can be said for the other two clips.

The brevity of the Hatsumi clip along with its low video quality makes it hard to discern Hatsumi Sensei's footwork and stances as he performs the technique.  His movements also seem disconnected from each other there, which is different from how I would teach the technique - and I do teach something similar in karate though we don't have a name for it.

The third clip had a slow motion play back and from a couple of angles which is also good.  The demonstrator didn't seem as clean though compared to the Genbukan clip.  Not knowing what is correct for his style, I also would prefer a more straight kamae as that is what I am used to.

I'd be interested in your thoughts of the three as an actual practitioner of the Bunjinkan arts.  Which is 'best'?


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 18, 2011)

frank raud said:


> So because an experienced golfer can instantly judge where a ball will go(left or right) based on observation(and their EXPERIENCE), you believe someone with no EXPERIENCE can figure out not only how to correctly do a martial arts technique, but can judge between multiple videos/DVDs as to who is performing the technique/kata/poomse/hyung better than the other videos they have observed?


 
Those golfers watched the videos as they went from beginner to more experienced golfer.  There has been golf on TV for quite some time.  And the video learning for golf has been around for at least a decade.  Many of the current pro golfers have trained this way.



frank raud said:


> What is your actual martial arts training background? How many martial arts have YOU learned by video? If there is a martial art you have learned strictly by video, would you be willing to put up a video of same to be critiqued by experienced martial artists in the same style? Or is this all hypothetical and something you think may be available in the future, which makes it irrelevant to the OP on this thread?


 
I believe I answered that in my very first post.

How about some counter (slightly strawman) questions:  Why should a beginner not watch videos of their style?  If it is good that they watch some videos  then how much is too much?


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 18, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> However the context of DVD learning in this thread comes from the OP, where our thread starter is a teenager with a bit of boxing, and no way of getting to a martial art school. He has no experience in martial arts, so putting forth DVD learning as viable based on previous experience being applied to the DVDs and their content really is not what is being discussed here.



 I have, at no time said that DVD only learning is viable.  In fact I have stated it wouldn&#8217;t work, just that my expectation for why it wouldn&#8217;t work seems to be different from others reasons why it wouldn&#8217;t work. 




Chris Parker said:


> No, what you said was that DVDs were an underestimated learning tool, and the problem was without a teacher to provide structure the potential student would get bored... really not the same thing that we're saying in terms of it not working....


I didn&#8217;t say bored, I would call that an inaccurate simplification of my point.



Chris Parker said:


> Well, firstly, that's a very different skill set again. Golf and martial arts really don't have anything in common in terms of how they are learnt. It's not just that they aren't the same thing, it's that they bear almost no relation to each other.
> 
> And all of this is based on a previous amount of experience and skill in playing golf. Still not something that will work for martial arts... it's a lot more than just getting your arm in the right place.
> 
> ...





You can pick a winner not because you are experienced in doing BJJ in an isolated environment, but because (and I&#8217;m guessing here) you have seen many BJJ matches between many different people.  Which is my point, to be able to see differences and know quality, you need a broad exposure and video provides an excellent tool to do so.



Chris Parker said:


> That's a completely different thing to what we're discussing, though.   Videoing yourself as a form of self critique, using mirrors etc, fine, great, advised, in fact. But what we're discussing is using DVDs to learn when you have no experience. That's what the OP was asking about, and that's the context we're discussing things in.


 
We may have a problem in that you, in a very detailed reply to me, are discussing one thing, and I&#8217;m discussing something different.  Because that is what I am discussing (using video as a tool to learn to both distinguish quality in others and in oneself), some people here seem to be discussing something else, but I can&#8217;t help that.  For me the context was never a simple &#8220;does this DVD work&#8221;, although it appears if some people have taken that as my point.  If I should have stuck to a more predictable script, I apologize for my error.

I don&#8217;t get this response.


Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> (*) It may be better than nothing, but there are lots of other alternatives that should be explored.





Chris Parker said:


> This is not an advised one.


 
Are you saying that it may not better than nothing or that there are not lots of other alternatives that should be explored?  Or is it some odd way to agree with me yet somehow look like you are disagreeing?

And thank you for the wonderful videos &#8211; I&#8217;ll study them all closely and report back later;   (Y&#8217;all may wish much later if it makes you feel better).


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 18, 2011)

Ok first pass at the videos (kick only).

In the first one, Hatsumi Sensei aims his kick at the back of the knee, which, for me, seems the appropriate place for this technique.  Tanemura Sensei seems to have the major mistake in that he takes an extra step (crossover) and kicks with the incorrect foot.  (Incorrect in this case as defined as the one I would not want to emulate  it would take to long.)  In the third video the kick seems to miss either the knee or the pills, both of which would be better than the back of the leg.

Hatsumi Sensei keeps a much broader stance for the shift to the side as does the person in the third video where he brings both feet together as part of the shift to the side.  As I said, Tanemura Sensei takes an extra cross over step, but he also holds his leg in a chamber position after kicking which I would think is not the advised technique and that there is an expectation of a follow up technique (he may be holding the chamber in case of that, but still I would expect a return to ready.)

Hatsumi Sensei keeps his weight down, whereas the third person comes up from his low position.  Tanemura Sensei doesnt start as low, but also doesnt come up from it.  Again, Hasumi Sensei seems the person to emulate with the third person being the one I would most likely end up looking like so I would need to be aware to try to prevent doing that.

The two Senseis seem to kick with their toe, whereas the third person seems to be kicking from the instep.  If this technique is truly to strike the back of the knee, I would expect to use the toe (especially with some kind of point toe shoe on).

Lastly Hatsumi Senseis chamber is much higher than the other videos.  This would be the one I would want to do.  The person in the third video did a better chamber on one of his kicks, but on the black and white slow mo technique he did not bring his knee up as high.

One other thing is on the kick is that the assistant for Hatsumi Sensei does strike the opening a little later than the other ones (he has the assistant who seems trying too hard to make his master look good.)  Could just be that it this was done unconsciously to make technique easier to see, but it would make me doubt a little the effectiveness of being able to see and strike the back of the knee effectively if the person was trained to quickly re-chamber their kick.

This is just looking at these three, not knowing anything about this technique or the designs of the style.  So how am I doing?  Should I keep on guessing for the hand technique?


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## frank raud (Nov 18, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *frank raud*
> 
> What is your actual martial arts training background? How many martial arts have YOU learned by video? If there is a martial art you have learned strictly by video, would you be willing to put up a video of same to be critiqued by experienced martial artists in the same style? Or is this all hypothetical and something you think may be available in the future, which makes it irrelevant to the OP on this thread?





Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I believe I answered that in my very first post.
> 
> I asked 4 questions, which you say you answered in your first post
> 
> ...


----------



## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 18, 2011)

frank raud said:


> What is your actual martial arts training background?


My martial arts background is crap.  I haven&#8217;t ever gotten into a fight, and I&#8217;m not even a good internet bully as I tend to undercut myself with self-deprecating comments that people tend to take seriously.  As the &#8220;new guy&#8221; I expect that you would want to know what kind of authority I possess, which is fair enough and is true in any sort of field where lack of expertise can get one seriously injured.  However, I would hope that you would judge my comments regardless of who made them.


frank raud said:


> How many martial arts have YOU learned by video?   If there is a martial art you have learned strictly by video, would you be willing to put up a video of same to be critiqued by experienced martial artists in the same style?


This is where my comment in my first post
&#8220;Without an obligations either to others &#8230; the training will soon fall off.&#8221;  answers these question.  I have not done it, of course.  This leads to the answer to the last question:


frank raud said:


> Or is this all hypothetical and something you think may be available in the future, which makes it irrelevant to the OP on this thread?


The relevance to the OP was not that they should get a DVD and try to learn from that, it is that, and again I&#8217;ll quote my first post:
&#8220;provide a phenomenal learning capability that was previously unavailable. To suggest that this tool is a poor substitute is to underestimate the value of this new media.&#8221;

Perhaps it is the &#8220;poor substitute&#8221; comment that raised some confusion.  So allow me to explain.  If I came in here and said &#8220;don&#8217;t learn how to use a knife, it is a poor substitute for a gun&#8221; I would expect, rightly so, that many people would jump in and say that, a knife has different uses than a gun and that given many situations (say eating dinner), a knife is much better than a gun.  A gun is a tool, a knife is a tool, video is a tool (some even say I am a tool).  Just because video isn&#8217;t a tool like an instructor is a tool, doesn&#8217;t mean it doesn&#8217;t have power or capabilities. 

Since I have gone back and explained myself, can you please answer my question:

Why should a beginner not watch videos of their style? If it is good that they watch some videos &#8211; then how much is too much?


----------



## frank raud (Nov 18, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Why should a beginner not watch videos of their style? If it is good that they watch some videos &#8211; then how much is too much?



Beginners may learn alot from watching a video of their style, however there is a very real possibility of trying to learn a technique too soon. If one was to watch videos of ONLY the techniques required for their belt level(or equivalent), they could pick up a an understanding of  a technique, BUT if the instructor in the video performs a technique differently than the instructor the student will test under, it may cause confusion. As most people willl get bored watching the basic white belt\yellow belt techniques of a curriculum, they may go forward, trying to learn and work on techniques from perhaps blue belt or brown belt syllabus. Problem being, without the proper foundation and experience in the techniques of the lower belts, the risk of getting it wrong, or causing injury to self/others is pretty high. To use an example from judo, uchimata is a spectactular throw, but it is not taught to white belts for a reason. Make sense?


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 18, 2011)

Okay, the video game first...

First, a clarification of what the clips were about. The reason I posted them was due to Dancingalone's contention that multiple sources would allow a new student to check against the variations to see what should be done, or pick mistakes by cross-checking against each other.

The idea was to see if people here thought they could learn this kata from the video sources... indeed, if they could tell which was the one they were supposed to be learning in the first place! That said, let's get to it!



dancingalone said:


> I'll play even though the exercise might not mean that much since I am an experienced martial artist rather than a rank beginner.
> 
> I prefer the Genbukan video of the three.  It's a newer video and the technique is performed slowly enough to where I can see what Tanemura Sensei is doing.  He appears to be stable enough although I would not raise up onto my ball of the foot on the supporting leg as he does when he kicks.  Perhaps there is a reason he does that, and a good instructional video would clearly state why for the watcher.  I also had a hard time understanding Tanemura Sensei but he is also offering some performance tips at this seminar, which is more than can be said for the other two clips.
> 
> ...



Cool.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Ok first pass at the videos (kick only).
> 
> In the first one, Hatsumi Sensei aims his kick at the back of the knee, which, for me, seems the appropriate place for this technique. Tanemura Sensei seems to have the major mistake in that he takes an extra step (crossover) and kicks with the incorrect foot. (Incorrect in this case as defined as the one I would not want to emulate &#8211; it would take to long.) In the third video the kick seems to miss either the knee or the pills, both of which would be better than the back of the leg.
> 
> ...



And cool again.

Right. Both of you, martial artists of some experience (we'll come back to that, Toast), and both of you got technical details wrong, missed some major differences in the execution, and didn't pick up on some of the real errors present. I think that pretty well shows that a newby, with no experience, wouldn't have a chance of learning in this way, even by comparing the various performances.

Now, to the answers.

Honestly, which one is "right" depends on which organisation you're in, and who your teacher is. The first one (Hatsumi Sensei) is a variation, not the kata itself, so learning from it is not the right idea. The counter kick is meant to be with the left leg, not the right, and the pull down at the end is a free-expression finish that Hatsumi put in there.

The second one (Tanemura) is the way the kata is presented in the Genbukan. The cross-step and staying on one leg is part of the way it is presented there, although variations where the counter kick is done with the right leg, or you land when you strike are also shown. You may notice that the angling for Tanemura is more severe than in Hatsumi's presentation... if you were in the Bujinkan, that would be "wrong", but for the Genbukan, it's "correct".

The third one is, mechanically speaking, the most "correct" from a Bujinkan perspective. The kick is with the right leg, it finishes with the thumb thrust to the ribs, and so on... except the kamae is flawed, the counter strike to the arm is to the wrong target, and is the wrong angle, and so on. So the most "correct" one, put forth as a demonstration of the kata specifically, is also the worst one to learn from.

Oh, and just to note, none of the kicks should be with the toes, it should be with the shin/instep (and when dealing with an old Japanese tradition, heavy or hard-toed shoes aren't really a part of the conversation at all).

Right, to the rest of it.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I have, at no time said that DVD only learning is viable.  In fact I have stated it wouldn&#8217;t work, just that my expectation for why it wouldn&#8217;t work seems to be different from others reasons why it wouldn&#8217;t work.



The way your first post comes across is in support of them, so that's the way we took it. I realise you're new here, but it may pay to look a little closer to what the thread is saying. Here we have a thread in the Beginners Section, with a title of "Beginner Really Needs Help", and an OP talking about not having the ability to attend a school, so wanting to learn from DVDs. When you then post, in the fourth post of the thread, that you feel DVDs are an undervalued resource in learning, it gets taken as support for solo self training with DVDs. I'm sure you can see why.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I didn&#8217;t say bored, I would call that an inaccurate simplification of my point.



 I took the idea of a lack of motivation as being pretty much the same thing, basically "getting bored with it" equaling "losing motivation to continue". My apologies if that was inaccurate.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> You can pick a winner not because you are experienced in doing BJJ in an isolated environment, but because (and I&#8217;m guessing here) you have seen many BJJ matches between many different people.  Which is my point, to be able to see differences and know quality, you need a broad exposure and video provides an excellent tool to do so.



Nope. In fact, that was one of the first tournaments I attended. I could pick it because I could see it. BJJ etc really isn't my thing, and that was before I trained in it.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> We may have a problem in that you, in a very detailed reply to me, are discussing one thing, and I&#8217;m discussing something different.  Because that is what I am discussing (using video as a tool to learn to both distinguish quality in others and in oneself), some people here seem to be discussing something else, but I can&#8217;t help that.  For me the context was never a simple &#8220;does this DVD work&#8221;, although it appears if some people have taken that as my point.  If I should have stuck to a more predictable script, I apologize for my error.


 
Again, I'd point back to what this thread is, which is not "how can you use a video reference", but a beginner with no real experience asking about learning from DVDs. All posts are read in that context.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Are you saying that it may not better than nothing or that there are not lots of other alternatives that should be explored?  Or is it some odd way to agree with me yet somehow look like you are disagreeing?


 
I'm saying that DVDs as a learning method for an inexperienced beginner is worse, in a range of ways, than a bad live instructor, or not training at all.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> My martial arts background is crap.  I haven&#8217;t ever gotten into a fight, and I&#8217;m not even a good internet bully as I tend to undercut myself with self-deprecating comments that people tend to take seriously.  As the &#8220;new guy&#8221; I expect that you would want to know what kind of authority I possess, which is fair enough and is true in any sort of field where lack of expertise can get one seriously injured.  However, I would hope that you would judge my comments regardless of who made them.



The reason you have been asked for your martial background isn't an attack, it's to do with understanding where your frame of reference is coming from. What arts have you trained, and how long?



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> This is where my comment in my first post
> &#8220;Without an obligations either to others &#8230; the training will soon fall off.&#8221;  answers these question.  I have not done it, of course.  This leads to the answer to the last question:



Hmm, I don't quite understand what you mean there. You were asked if you have learned an art from video, then reference your first post, where you talk about a lack of obligations leading to a trailing off of the training... does that mean you tried, and couldn't do it?



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> The relevance to the OP was not that they should get a DVD and try to learn from that, it is that, and again I&#8217;ll quote my first post:
> &#8220;provide a phenomenal learning capability that was previously unavailable. To suggest that this tool is a poor substitute is to underestimate the value of this new media.&#8221;



However, actually learning from a DVD is just a damn bad idea. That's what we've been saying, and arguing against your comments here on.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Perhaps it is the &#8220;poor substitute&#8221; comment that raised some confusion.  So allow me to explain.  If I came in here and said &#8220;don&#8217;t learn how to use a knife, it is a poor substitute for a gun&#8221; I would expect, rightly so, that many people would jump in and say that, a knife has different uses than a gun and that given many situations (say eating dinner), a knife is much better than a gun.  A gun is a tool, a knife is a tool, video is a tool (some even say I am a tool).  Just because video isn&#8217;t a tool like an instructor is a tool, doesn&#8217;t mean it doesn&#8217;t have power or capabilities.



It does mean that it is limited to the point of being less than useful in the learning of martial arts, though.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Since I have gone back and explained myself, can you please answer my question:
> 
> Why should a beginner not watch videos of their style? If it is good that they watch some videos &#8211; then how much is too much?



Watch videos? Sure. Learn an art from them? Not in a hundred years.


----------



## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 18, 2011)

First, again, as I am new to this forum, I am unfamiliar with some of the conventions; I did just barge right in.  (Yeah, that does say something about me.) 

Since I can&#8217;t quote within a quote, please forgive me for collecting your comments together.  I think I get some of the repeated aspects, so I have joined disparate comments at my convenience.  If this is a great social faux pas, please forgive me.  I&#8217;m used to misquoting being one of the cardinal sins, but this board doesn&#8217;t let for quote within a quote easily, so I&#8217;m making do as best as I can.

First to the &#8220;pointed question&#8221;


Chris Parker said:


> The reason you have been asked for your martial background isn't an attack, it's to do with understanding where your frame of reference is coming from. What arts have you trained, and how long?


 
No attack taken.  No offense given.   I would ask why you would think I would take it as an attack, but I assume several people have.  The fact that I haven&#8217;t taken it as an attack may say something about me, but is probably meaningless.  Currently, you do not know my background, and all I am is a bad screen name, so asking about it is perfectly reasonable.  My statement given was accurate.  I consider myself trained zero years in any martial arts until proven otherwise.  You would be correct to assume the same.




Chris Parker said:


> The way your first post comes across is in support of them, so that's the way we took it. I realise you're new here, but it may pay to look a little closer to what the thread is saying. Here we have a thread in the Beginners Section, with a title of "Beginner Really Needs Help", and an OP talking about not having the ability to attend a school, so wanting to learn from DVDs. When you then post, in the fourth post of the thread, that you feel DVDs are an undervalued resource in learning, it gets taken as support for solo self training with DVDs. I'm sure you can see why.
> 
> 
> &#8230;
> ...




I am concerned with this being a beginners section, and I thought I was being careful to call out exactly what I was saying.  Did I know that there was a risk that a supporting statement for video learning would be taken as support for trying to learn an art solely from DVD?  Sure I did.  I tried my best to couch it with lots of &#8220;mays&#8221; and I thought was carful with my language.   I suspect that there have been too many similar posts that would allow me to play against type.  Well, at least I started with some flair.

It is interesting that the supposed support of DVD&#8217;s was what was latched onto and not the statement that it won&#8217;t work aspect from my post.

To the subsequent posts, sure, I&#8217;ll cop to thread drift in the name of clarification.  If I should have moved to a new thread, I sorry I didn&#8217;t.  I went on the basis that as long as the conversation was civil, it could keep going as long it was, in general, around the subject.

Now to our point of disagreement:


Chris Parker said:


> I'm saying that DVDs as a learning method for an inexperienced beginner is worse, in a range of ways, than a bad live instructor, or not training at all.
> 
> 
> &#8230;
> ...


 
I am not suggesting learning a martial art only via DVD as option A, B, C or P.  However, I tend to leave the door open for broad hypotheticals, so I shy away from absolutes.  I expect that even a beginner will think for themselves (that may be a huge assumption &#8211; but necessary for many human activities), so while I am encouraging the OP to use any and all video resources as available, I would not shut the door that there may be a situation where it may possibly be the best option.

Could I construct a situation where someone is trapped in a swiss canton surrounded by religious fanatics who will beat the OP senseless if the OP shows their face, yet the OP needs to buy groceries and yet all they have is a DVD of self-defense.  Should they watch the video or go out shopping?

Putting myself in this unlikely situation, I would watch the videos.  Somewhere between that farcical situation and the real complex situation of a life is the OP.  Given the sparse information about the OP, I would suggest that they should maximize all of the tools at their disposal and look around to see what other tools they could utilize.

If this means watching {insert eventually the name of the craptastic self-defense video I once saw where the students &#8211; girls mostly &#8211; raised their hands and spun, dancing style, away from a choke, yeah, I really did watch that one}, then so be it.  It beats nothing.  I&#8217;m sorry, but I have a point of dissention, something is better than nothing.  Not that there aren&#8217;t almost always a plethora of unseen options, but I&#8217;d love to see an argument that nothing is better.

With that said, I still say that video provides an excellent tool for a student of all skill levels to see and learn and I would encourage students of any and all types to take advantage of it as much as it fits.




Chris Parker said:


> I took the idea of a lack of motivation as being pretty much the same thing, basically "getting bored with it" equaling "losing motivation to continue". My apologies if that was inaccurate.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> Hmm, I don't quite understand what you mean there. You were asked if you have learned an art from video, then reference your first post, where you talk about a lack of obligations leading to a trailing off of the training... does that mean you tried, and couldn't do it?




Have I tried it?  No way.  I&#8217;d say &#8220;do I look stupid to you&#8221;, but the answer is probably &#8220;yes&#8221;, so I won&#8217;t bother asking.  (Damn, am I typing out loud again?)

Again on a diversionary tact, the reason each person walks into a dojo is their own.  Why some stay and others leave, may be hard to predict.  Some students have seemingly all the support in the world, and yet they peter out.  Others have nothing and yet they seem to persist for no other reason than to persist.  Yet against these are students with support who succeed and others with no support who predictably fail.  I was measuring the probability of success against the most likely scenario.  A student who commits to a video based training could possibly, maybe, most probably not, but don&#8217;t bet against human persistence, succeed, and we would all be surprised if it could happen.

For my part, I would contribute failure to learn solely from a DVD only endeavor not to a lack of teacher, but the lack of all of the other things that contribute to someone staying, and succeeding, in the martial arts.  I see cultivating those things as important, or more important, than the teacher one has.  There is a reason that a student who learns kung fu from running a Chinese movie theater projector only appears in a movie.


----------



## Cyriacus (Nov 19, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> First, again, as I am new to this forum, I am unfamiliar with some of the conventions; I did just barge right in.  (Yeah, that does say something about me.)
> 
> *Yep
> *
> ...



Just Contributing to the Conversation.


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 19, 2011)

Cool, let's see what we have here...



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> First, again, as I am new to this forum, I am unfamiliar with some of the conventions; I did just barge right in.  (Yeah, that does say something about me.)
> 
> Since I can&#8217;t quote within a quote, please forgive me for collecting your comments together.  I think I get some of the repeated aspects, so I have joined disparate comments at my convenience.  If this is a great social faux pas, please forgive me.  I&#8217;m used to misquoting being one of the cardinal sins, but this board doesn&#8217;t let for quote within a quote easily, so I&#8217;m making do as best as I can.



Ha, don't worry too much about it. So long as we can follow your points, it's all cool.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> First to the &#8220;pointed question&#8221;
> 
> No attack taken.  No offense given.   I would ask why you would think I would take it as an attack, but I assume several people have.  The fact that I haven&#8217;t taken it as an attack may say something about me, but is probably meaningless.  Currently, you do not know my background, and all I am is a bad screen name, so asking about it is perfectly reasonable.  My statement given was accurate.  I consider myself trained zero years in any martial arts until proven otherwise.  You would be correct to assume the same.


 
Your initial answer was similar to evasions others have used about their background, which is why I thought you may have thought we were attacking you over it. That said, if you genuinely have no real experience in martial arts, I would wonder why you're arguing against the experience on the board as to the usability of DVDs in this context, where I am concerned, for instance, I have coming up to two and a half decades in the arts, covering a relatively wide range of systems in that time, from very old ones to very new ones.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I am concerned with this being a beginners section, and I thought I was being careful to call out exactly what I was saying.  Did I know that there was a risk that a supporting statement for video learning would be taken as support for trying to learn an art solely from DVD?  Sure I did.  I tried my best to couch it with lots of &#8220;mays&#8221; and I thought was carful with my language.   I suspect that there have been too many similar posts that would allow me to play against type.  Well, at least I started with some flair.



No, actually, you didn't say that DVD learning wouldn't work, you basically said that the student would fail. That's not the case, though, which is what we said back immediately.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> It is interesting that the supposed support of DVD&#8217;s was what was latched onto and not the statement that it won&#8217;t work aspect from my post.



Your statement was based in a complete lack of understanding of the reality of the situation, though. And honestly, the reason you attributed is not the reason it doesn't work. 



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> To the subsequent posts, sure, I&#8217;ll cop to thread drift in the name of clarification.  If I should have moved to a new thread, I sorry I didn&#8217;t.  I went on the basis that as long as the conversation was civil, it could keep going as long it was, in general, around the subject.



Not necessarily, but if you truly don't really have experience in martial arts, I'd wonder why you kept arguing with myself and Frank, about 50 years between us, as well as everyone else on the thread that said the same thing to you.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Now to our point of disagreement:
> 
> I am not suggesting learning a martial art only via DVD as option A, B, C or P.  However, I tend to leave the door open for broad hypotheticals, so I shy away from absolutes.  I expect that even a beginner will think for themselves (that may be a huge assumption &#8211; but necessary for many human activities), so while I am encouraging the OP to use any and all video resources as available, I would not shut the door that there may be a situation where it may possibly be the best option.



It shouldn't be an option at all, it is completely unadvisable. It is never the best option. It is the easy option taken by people who either cannot accept that training is not available to them, or who don't want to sacrifice some part of their life for that training. 



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Could I construct a situation where someone is trapped in a swiss canton surrounded by religious fanatics who will beat the OP senseless if the OP shows their face, yet the OP needs to buy groceries and yet all they have is a DVD of self-defense.  Should they watch the video or go out shopping?



Go out shopping. The DVD will do them no good.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Putting myself in this unlikely situation, I would watch the videos.  Somewhere between that farcical situation and the real complex situation of a life is the OP.  Given the sparse information about the OP, I would suggest that they should maximize all of the tools at their disposal and look around to see what other tools they could utilize.



Honestly, you'd waste your time, then. The OP should wait until they can train. They're a teenager, they have time. DVDs are not maximising anything, and are just minimising their bank account which could be saved for their start in an actual school.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> If this means watching {insert eventually the name of the craptastic self-defense video I once saw where the students &#8211; girls mostly &#8211; raised their hands and spun, dancing style, away from a choke, yeah, I really did watch that one}, then so be it.  It beats nothing.  I&#8217;m sorry, but I have a point of dissention, something is better than nothing.  Not that there aren&#8217;t almost always a plethora of unseen options, but I&#8217;d love to see an argument that nothing is better.



Nothing is better than poor education here, definitely. Ever heard the phrase "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"? It can give an overdeveloped (and thoroughly undeserved) sense of confidence and safety, leading to a downright thumping if it ever came down to it. They would be better off simply relying on instinct without wasting the time on the DVDs. And believe it or not, that's one of the better possibilities.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> With that said, I still say that video provides an excellent tool for a student of all skill levels to see and learn and I would encourage students of any and all types to take advantage of it as much as it fits.



 But that's not the discussion here. No one has argued against DVDs for reference material, it's just that that is not the discussion.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Have I tried it?  No way.  I&#8217;d say &#8220;do I look stupid to you&#8221;, but the answer is probably &#8220;yes&#8221;, so I won&#8217;t bother asking.  (Damn, am I typing out loud again?)



So you haven't trained in martial arts, and haven't tried the video route, yet you're arguing with us when we are speaking from experience? Hmm.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Again on a diversionary tact, the reason each person walks into a dojo is their own.  Why some stay and others leave, may be hard to predict.  Some students have seemingly all the support in the world, and yet they peter out.  Others have nothing and yet they seem to persist for no other reason than to persist.  Yet against these are students with support who succeed and others with no support who predictably fail.  I was measuring the probability of success against the most likely scenario.  A student who commits to a video based training could possibly, maybe, most probably not, but don&#8217;t bet against human persistence, succeed, and we would all be surprised if it could happen.



The reason DVD training doesn't work is that the essential aspects of training and learning a martial art (the constant feedback and correction, the tactile methods with other persons, the guided repetitions, the specialist attention to your personal needs, and so forth) are entirely absent from DVD based learning. Again, go back to the first answers you got to your first post here, we've been saying it since the beginning.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> For my part, I would contribute failure to learn solely from a DVD only endeavor not to a lack of teacher, but the lack of all of the other things that contribute to someone staying, and succeeding, in the martial arts.  I see cultivating those things as important, or more important, than the teacher one has.  There is a reason that a student who learns kung fu from running a Chinese movie theater projector only appears in a movie.



Then you really don't have any idea how martial arts training works.


----------



## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 19, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Not necessarily, but if you truly don't really have experience in martial arts, I'd wonder why you kept arguing with myself and Frank, about 50 years between us, as well as everyone else on the thread that said the same thing to you.



 You&#8217;ll have to forgive me, it isn&#8217;t, or wasn&#8217;t that I&#8217;m evasive on my experience.  I&#8217;m sure if I continue to post here (which is probable) you&#8217;ll learn about my experience.  But a bit about my related experience may help why I appear initially evasive.

One of my other activities is rock climbing where &#8220;who&#8221; you are carries even less weight than martial arts (definitely a different sub-cultural vibe).  I&#8217;ve seen SAR (search and rescue) people give craptastic safety advice and people who have held my life in their hands (when you are on belay you do actively have another person&#8217;s life in your hands) take risks I wouldn&#8217;t take.  I&#8217;ve seen posts from people I respect; legends in the sport, people who have 50 years experience state something I vehemently disagreed with.  (And for good reason too).  I&#8217;ve even had to agree with people I consider borderline insane.  All advice, especially internet advice, must be highly doubted and critically self-analyzed.  This is because it is an activity with a highly active &#8220;Injuries and Accidents&#8221; thread where discussion about how someone effed up and died happens regularly.   There is not a forum here where martial arts expert&#8217;s accidents are similarly discussed. 

Within the last couple of years three legendary climbers died.  One was a free soloing expert (climbing without any rope for safety) who died free soloing (John Bachar) and one (Kurt Albert - http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01727/kurt-albert_1727692f.jpg) missed clipping himself in properly doing via ferrata which is often considered the &#8220;suburban mom&#8221; of climbing and lastly Craig Leubben who wrote the book on building anchors died when a piece of a glacier crashed down on him.  I&#8217;ve tried a line Bachar&#8217;s soloed it was way too hard for me (people free solo well below their max level), Kurt Albert basically defined the modern climbing style which I and others do and Craig&#8217;s book was key to mine, and most other newer climbers, ability to build safe anchors.  I&#8217;ve trusted advice that Craig gave with my life.  Anchor building advice compared to &#8220;should I watch this DVD&#8221; advice has a level of danger difference that I&#8217;m sure you appreciate.  It is my responsibility to take Craig&#8217;s advice and internet advice and mentors&#8217; advice and ensure that my anchors don&#8217;t fail and kill me or my family.  I&#8217;d say &#8220;I haven&#8217;t died yet&#8221; but not being dead isn&#8217;t a guarantee that you are doing it right or that you won&#8217;t be dead next time.  The best I can hope for is as complete an understanding of the physics involved and the reasons around standard practices as possible.  It is this mindset I bring to martial arts.

While I understand the respect that many martial artists hold each other in, I don&#8217;t take at face value any advice I see.  Period.  I don&#8217;t care who it comes from or in what context.  I doubt it all.  I assume the fallacy of appeal to authority every single time someone even mentions that they have any experience.  Part of my &#8220;assume I have no experience&#8221; is that I assume you have none.  I have noticed that a feature of the forum is that you see who looks at your profile.  I wouldn&#8217;t look at anyone&#8217;s profile except to PM them and I intentionally ignore the metals and icons that show who here has more experience talking here.  I absolutely understand that within many of the sub-cultures of martial arts there is culture of strong hierarchy.  I get it and I get why.  I just do not accept it personally.  I realize this puts me at conflict with the community and if you or others reject any and all of my posts because I don&#8217;t make any appeals to my experience, so be it.

I also realize that I come at martial arts from a different view than most, if not all, of the other people here.  When I said &#8220;I haven&#8217;t gotten into a fight&#8221; it was spoken with the greatest of pride, because it is a reflection of what I consider success.  I consider myself a type of martial artist not because of the training I do, but because of all of the other steps I take as part of a holistic lifestyle.  Yeah, I used &#8220;holistic&#8221;.   I&#8217;d use another word, a better word if I could.  My approach and my points are driven more from this perspective, I know it doesn&#8217;t easily come across in posts.  Hell, it is hard to understand face to face.

There is an old cliché about the triangle of &#8220;person&#8221; &#8211; &#8220;support&#8221; &#8211; &#8220;situation&#8221; in that you can never fully attribute success or failure to any one of the points in the triangle.  Culturally we tend to call our successes to the &#8220;person&#8221; and our failures to the &#8220;situation&#8221; although it is always the unique combination of the three that determines success or failure.  I tend to talk about all three together which leads back to&#8230;



Chris Parker said:


> But that's not the discussion here. No one has argued against DVDs for reference material, it's just that that is not the discussion.


 
Since I am about half of the discussion, and that has been my point from the start, how can it not be the discussion here?


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 19, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Now, to the answers.
> 
> Honestly, which one is "right" depends on which organisation you're in, and who your teacher is. The first one (Hatsumi Sensei) is a variation, not the kata itself, so learning from it is not the right idea. The counter kick is meant to be with the left leg, not the right, and the pull down at the end is a free-expression finish that Hatsumi put in there.
> 
> ...


 
Is the kick supposed to be to the knee, back of the leg, or the pills?


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## frank raud (Nov 19, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> ICould I construct a situation where someone is trapped in a swiss canton surrounded by religious fanatics who will beat the OP senseless if the OP shows their face, yet the OP needs to buy groceries and yet all they have is a DVD of self-defense. Should they watch the video or go out shopping?



Break the DVD in half, use the jagged edge as an improvised weapon until it wears out, then use other half as backup. Quickest way to get SD value out of a DVD.


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## jks9199 (Nov 19, 2011)

Would you advise someone to try to learn rappelling or climbing primarily from books or videos? I doubt you would. There are things you simply need to do or be shown properly in person, right? It may not be done in the hierarchical manner of many formal martial arts classes but it still happens. Not all ma instruction is done in rigid formal classes. That's not the argument against DVD training. The simple fact is that wit the exception of a few rare gifted individuals, it takes the active guidance of a senseihovey - one who has gone before - to get it right. Videos don't interact; they can't help you know how something feels. There's a reason that learning many techniques starts with receiving them. 

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 19, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Would you advise someone to try to learn rappelling or climbing primarily from books or videos? I doubt you would. There are things you simply need to do or be shown properly in person, right?


 
Well, sort of.

Some people climb to &#8220;chase grades&#8221; climbing harder and harder rated climbs.  Some climb to climb a specific way (say &#8220;trad&#8221; climbing where you climb from bottom up and place all of your safety gear or &#8220;bouldering&#8221; where you look for the hardest possible way that you can actually get up a large rock.)  Some people live in great climbing destinations (Boulder Colorado comes to mind) others live in flatlands (Kansas).  Some have great facilities for climbing (i.e. Stone Summit in Atlanta) others need to make due with a home &#8220;woodie&#8221; (mini wall).

The fact is everyone is doing something slight abnormal.  So the &#8220;live and let live&#8221; vibe is strong.  I don&#8217;t free solo.  I have too much to lose, but I don&#8217;t begrudge any who do.  It is their life, if that is what they want, so be it.

To someone who lives in Kansas who will get a one week trip to Boulder once a year and only has a home woddie.  Video provides their only opportunity.  And yes, a person like that can learn all they would need for their trip to go well.  They won&#8217;t climb the big grades, but they can be safe and have fun.

But for someone who wants to be considered the best climber in the world, then Kansas simply won&#8217;t do.  That person must commit their life to their art, pursue it, dedicate their whole body to it (you can spot a pro climber &#8211; it is all in the forearms and the lack of body fat).  Many go thru a &#8220;dirtbag climber&#8221; stage where they live for nothing but climbing.  They climb and they climb and they climb, the best get recognized and the rest go home.  But to say that the Sharma&#8217;s or Ondra&#8217;s of the world are the only climbing game in town is to miss out on the richly textured ways in which many people climb only because they like to climb.  Most don&#8217;t chase grades, they just like doing climbing.  (Ok almost everyone wants to be at lease just little better, but still&#8230

I see martial arts like that.  Sure there are pros.  Sure there are people trying to be the best they can be.  But anyone who steps out into this mildly insane process is a brother of mine.  I don&#8217;t wish for them to follow me, my path is my own.  Their path is their path.  The only advice I really have is to enjoy and to use everything and use all of the tools at your disposal.

Besides, if we were to sit around and define the best martial artist in the world, sooner or later someone would say &#8220;Warren Buffett&#8221; and we would all have to admit that money is the boss of us all and that man is safer than all of us.

But since I maintain a bit of insanity, and I like hitting mitts, and I like kicks coming at my head (OK I like sending kicks better, but still), I don&#8217;t begrudge some kid in podunk Kansas his only way to have some of the vibe.  If it sucks, and it will suck, so be it.  If that was the way that that person found his way to a better martial arts, then all is good.

And to those who say &#8220;a little training is a dangerous thing&#8221;, it sure is in climbing, far more than turning a martial arts DVD fan into a potentially false tough guy who gets killed.   Again, lots of experts death in climbing; not so many martial artists die.  If anyone has any news of any high level martial artists dying in a fight, I would love to read the incident analysis.  (Old habits die hard.)

But, once the martial arts itch is scratched, who knows where it will lead.  And is a little (bad) training potentially bad for someone?  Sure it is, but for most of the population, that little buzz, that little kick, that push on the side of the neck that makes a stronger man tumble.  Isn&#8217;t that what this is about?  If they get it from a Hollywood movie, an instructional DVD, or a youtube video, so be it.  It is all is good in my book.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 19, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Beginners may learn alot from watching a video of their style, however there is a very real possibility of trying to learn a technique too soon. If one was to watch videos of ONLY the techniques required for their belt level(or equivalent), they could pick up a an understanding of a technique, BUT if the instructor in the video performs a technique differently than the instructor the student will test under, it may cause confusion. As most people willl get bored watching the basic white belt\yellow belt techniques of a curriculum, they may go forward, trying to learn and work on techniques from perhaps blue belt or brown belt syllabus. Problem being, without the proper foundation and experience in the techniques of the lower belts, the risk of getting it wrong, or causing injury to self/others is pretty high. To use an example from judo, uchimata is a spectactular throw, but it is not taught to white belts for a reason. Make sense?


 
Again, sticking with only watching the style you are teaching:  So your recommendation is to watch videos until boredom (or before).  Never watch someone doing it differently so they can compare with what they have been told to because people seeing something different become confused.  And never watch something outside of their belt level or style.

Can I then assume that the white belts never see the advanced students in class, because they would be confused if they saw done by a higher rank or not done correctly?


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## Cyriacus (Nov 19, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> But, once the martial arts itch is scratched, who knows where it will lead.


Lets see how many Practitioners everyone can Name on this Site who've been doing this most of their Lives, and still are to this day!


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## Cyriacus (Nov 19, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Again, sticking with only watching the style you are teaching:  So your recommendation is to watch videos until boredom (or before).  Never watch someone doing it differently so they can compare with what they have been told to because people seeing something different become confused.  And never watch something outside of their belt level or style.
> 
> Can I then assume that the white belts never see the advanced students in class, because they would be confused if they saw done by a higher rank or not done correctly?


Thats not quite how it works or what He meant - Theres a Reason You dont just Learn everything at the same time.


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## mook jong man (Nov 19, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Lets see how many Practitioners everyone can Name on this Site who've been doing this most of their Lives, and still are to this day!



I started June of 1989 and I'm still training , and will continue so long as I remain in good health.
Actually truth be known , even in bad health I would still find some way to train , it's well and truly in the blood now.


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## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> First, a clarification of what the clips were about. The reason I posted them was due to Dancingalone's contention that multiple sources would allow a new student to check against the variations to see what should be done, or pick mistakes by cross-checking against each other.



I made no such argument.  (Feel free to quote me if you feel I did.) I said I believe even non-martial artists could see a performance of kata from someone like Higaonna Sensei and rate it as superior to another despite perhaps not being able to express what makes the performance superior.  I also said I believed some raw mechanics like a front stance could be learned from a good instructional video paired with a student who has the ability to make use of the video.



Chris Parker said:


> The idea was to see if people here thought they could learn this kata from the video sources... indeed, if they could tell which was the one they were supposed to be learning in the first place!



I'm not sure that's such a great test in the first place.  We can agree surely that different systems and styles have different rules of thumb.  Some prefer an entirely straight posture - others like to hunch the shoulders and bend forward at the waist.  Neither is necessarily 'wrong' - it depends on the goal at hand and what the system's founder decided was most important to him.

So as someone who does not practice Bujinkan-related arts I could not discern which I 'should' be attempting to learn from.  I've no idea what is 'right'.  I DO know I prefer the Tanemura video for the reasons I expressed already, and more than a little of the reasoning comes from the fact that it is more of an instructional video than the other two which is perhaps something you've overlooked in your analysis of my answer.  I believe distinctions should be made between demo videos and instructional videos as they serve different purposes.

I imagine the same is with a beginner.  Of course they won't be able to tell which version of Koku they should be following.  They won't know whether to buy Higaonna's videos (assuming they're attempting to learn from them) versus Joe Blow's.  They might not even understand the differences between karate styles nor may they even care about them, which is fine.

The question I am interested in is whether they could get anything meaningful out of an instructional video, and surely any viable test would involve basics first rather than a relatively complex scenario such as Koku.  A good instructional video will include both demonstrations of good technique while explaining what makes it good in the first place.  It should probably also explain and demonstrate a lot of common pitfalls and mistakes made by in-studio people.  It should have a wealth of information on it that frankly would make the DVD commercially inviable due to the resulting length and subject matter.  Who wants to buy and watch a DVD on just body mechanics?  Not many in my opinion.


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## jks9199 (Nov 19, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> To someone who lives in Kansas who will get a one week trip to Boulder once a year and only has a home woddie.  Video provides their only opportunity.  And yes, a person like that can learn all they would need for their trip to go well.  They won&#8217;t climb the big grades, but they can be safe and have fun.


I suspect video training on your own is a quick way to a close encounter with gravity...  In fact, I know it is.  Book learning alone isn't enough in climbing; I've proven it.  No -- I haven't done any serious climbing, but I've played and scrambled a bit.  Enough to realize that without some actual experienced guidance -- again, possibly informal! -- you're going to be taking some huge risks when you move into more serious climbing.


> But for someone who wants to be considered the best climber in the world, then Kansas simply won&#8217;t do.  That person must commit their life to their art, pursue it, dedicate their whole body to it (you can spot a pro climber &#8211; it is all in the forearms and the lack of body fat).  Many go thru a &#8220;dirtbag climber&#8221; stage where they live for nothing but climbing.  They climb and they climb and they climb, the best get recognized and the rest go home.  But to say that the Sharma&#8217;s or Ondra&#8217;s of the world are the only climbing game in town is to miss out on the richly textured ways in which many people climb only because they like to climb.  Most don&#8217;t chase grades, they just like doing climbing.  (Ok almost everyone wants to be at lease just little better, but still&#8230
> 
> I see martial arts like that.  Sure there are pros.  Sure there are people trying to be the best they can be.  But anyone who steps out into this mildly insane process is a brother of mine.  I don&#8217;t wish for them to follow me, my path is my own.  Their path is their path.  The only advice I really have is to enjoy and to use everything and use all of the tools at your disposal.


You're closer to the right track there...  Like any endeavor, to reach heights of excellence, you have to dedicate yourself beyond the average or routine person.  To learn some styles of martial arts, your only choice is to go where they're being taught.  Just like to be a really great climber, you have to travel to mountains, not the foothills of the Piedmont region of Virginia.  (Just an example; I know there is some deceptively good climbing in the Blue Ridge and Appalachian Mountains.)  If you're training in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, at some point,  you must go to Japan.  If you want to learn many of the Filipino arts -- at some point, you're going to the Philippines.   And so on...  

Can somebody learn from video?  Yes.  But their learning will be stunted and incomplete.  Even if they work with another person -- if that person doesn't know anymore than the video learner -- they WILL miss keys.  As I said, a key part of learning many martial arts is receiving the technique before you do it in order to learn how it feels and to perceive how it works.  You can't get that from a video.


> Besides, if we were to sit around and define the best martial artist in the world, sooner or later someone would say &#8220;Warren Buffett&#8221; and we would all have to admit that money is the boss of us all and that man is safer than all of us.
> 
> But since I maintain a bit of insanity, and I like hitting mitts, and I like kicks coming at my head (OK I like sending kicks better, but still), I don&#8217;t begrudge some kid in podunk Kansas his only way to have some of the vibe.  If it sucks, and it will suck, so be it.  If that was the way that that person found his way to a better martial arts, then all is good.
> 
> ...


Unlearning is very difficult when you've internalized something wrong.  And having it wrong can make it hard or impossible to get something else wrong.  To go to a ridiculous extreme -- if someone tries to learn rappelling and figures they've seen people on videos improvising a rope and seat out of whatever, so they try to use a shoelace for real, it's not likely to end well, is it?  If you try to learn martial arts without having someone with the right experience teach you -- you'll almost certainly miss keys that are vital for success.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> You&#8217;ll have to forgive me, it isn&#8217;t, or wasn&#8217;t that I&#8217;m evasive on my experience.  I&#8217;m sure if I continue to post here (which is probable) you&#8217;ll learn about my experience.  But a bit about my related experience may help why I appear initially evasive.
> 
> One of my other activities is rock climbing where &#8220;who&#8221; you are carries even less weight than martial arts (definitely a different sub-cultural vibe).  I&#8217;ve seen SAR (search and rescue) people give craptastic safety advice and people who have held my life in their hands (when you are on belay you do actively have another person&#8217;s life in your hands) take risks I wouldn&#8217;t take.  I&#8217;ve seen posts from people I respect; legends in the sport, people who have 50 years experience state something I vehemently disagreed with.  (And for good reason too).  I&#8217;ve even had to agree with people I consider borderline insane.  All advice, especially internet advice, must be highly doubted and critically self-analyzed.  This is because it is an activity with a highly active &#8220;Injuries and Accidents&#8221; thread where discussion about how someone effed up and died happens regularly.   There is not a forum here where martial arts expert&#8217;s accidents are similarly discussed.
> 
> ...


 
All this really shows is that you don't get martial arts training and the way it works, honestly. And as far as assuming that everyone here has no experience, so you can take the posts on their merit, that's a rather flawed approach, as you're likely to dismiss things that, while perfectly valid and correct, don't gel with your take on things, especially when they come from someone who has, frankly, far more experience and understanding than you do. I'd suggest getting more into learning about who is telling you things, as that can tell you whether or not to apply much weight to it.

With people like myself, Frank, MJS, JKS etc, the years we have put into this are what give us our perspectives, saying that you don't agree based on your lack of experience, and dismissing ours as you are assuming the same experience level that you want us to assume of yours, is frankly arrogant. It's a form of superiority complex, and won't help discussion.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Since I am about half of the discussion, and that has been my point from the start, how can it not be the discussion here?


 
You've been half the discussion as you've come at this with a frankly flawed idea to begin with, and we've been correcting you. You've continued defending your tact, and we've continued to explain that you're off base. That doesn't make your take on the conversation the discussion itself, nor the context of it.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Is the kick supposed to be to the knee, back of the leg, or the pills?



Frankly irrelevant to the point here, but, no. Oh, but I have no idea what you mean by "the pills", by the way.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Again, sticking with only watching the style you are teaching:  So your recommendation is to watch videos until boredom (or before).  Never watch someone doing it differently so they can compare with what they have been told to because people seeing something different become confused.  And never watch something outside of their belt level or style.
> 
> Can I then assume that the white belts never see the advanced students in class, because they would be confused if they saw done by a higher rank or not done correctly?



You're really not getting the way learning works in this context, I feel. There are many reasons to watch many videos on many systems, but not to "learn the system". As far as becoming confused, again, I don't think that you get what that means when it comes to learning a martial system.



dancingalone said:


> I made no such argument.  (Feel free to quote me if you feel I did.) I said I believe even non-martial artists could see a performance of kata from someone like Higaonna Sensei and rate it as superior to another despite perhaps not being able to express what makes the performance superior.  I also said I believed some raw mechanics like a front stance could be learned from a good instructional video paired with a student who has the ability to make use of the video.



Ah, sorry about that, I was getting a little mixed up between the "tell the difference between Kid A and Kid B" comments and Toast's contentions.



dancingalone said:


> I'm not sure that's such a great test in the first place.  We can agree surely that different systems and styles have different rules of thumb.  Some prefer an entirely straight posture - others like to hunch the shoulders and bend forward at the waist.  Neither is necessarily 'wrong' - it depends on the goal at hand and what the system's founder decided was most important to him.



Which was kinda my point. Toast put up the idea that watching various versions would help the potential student figure out which was right, and which wasn't, but it really isn't that simple.



dancingalone said:


> So as someone who does not practice Bujinkan-related arts I could not discern which I 'should' be attempting to learn from.  I've no idea what is 'right'.  I DO know I prefer the Tanemura video for the reasons I expressed already, and more than a little of the reasoning comes from the fact that it is more of an instructional video than the other two which is perhaps something you've overlooked in your analysis of my answer.  I believe distinctions should be made between demo videos and instructional videos as they serve different purposes.



Exactly. Now, while these aren't actually "instructional" videos, they are designed as specific demonstrations, or part of a teaching seminar. The question is which would you learn from, Hatsumi, Tanemura, or the Akban group? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way) 



dancingalone said:


> I imagine the same is with a beginner.  Of course they won't be able to tell which version of Koku they should be following.  They won't know whether to buy Higaonna's videos (assuming they're attempting to learn from them) versus Joe Blow's.  They might not even understand the differences between karate styles nor may they even care about them, which is fine.



Which just adds another level of issues to the idea of DVD learning.



dancingalone said:


> The question I am interested in is whether they could get anything meaningful out of an instructional video, and surely any viable test would involve basics first rather than a relatively complex scenario such as Koku.  A good instructional video will include both demonstrations of good technique while explaining what makes it good in the first place.  It should probably also explain and demonstrate a lot of common pitfalls and mistakes made by in-studio people.  It should have a wealth of information on it that frankly would make the DVD commercially inviable due to the resulting length and subject matter.  Who wants to buy and watch a DVD on just body mechanics?  Not many in my opinion.



Koku is the first, entry kata in Gyokko Ryu. It is the beginning, which is part of why I chose it.

In terms of if a completely novice student could get anything meaningful out of such productions, honestly, I'd say little more than intellectual, really.

Toast, I'm going to ask one more time, as going through your posts I see a large number of things leaping out at me, so before I jump to a conclusion, can you clarify if you have any actual martial arts background at all? Not dismissing anything you feel is unimportant, not looking at a personal philosophy of how you decide to classify them (Warren Buffet as a "great martial artist"? No, not a damn chance, unless you can tell me his ranking in a school), or anything similar, I'm interested in if you have any real experience at all. Clearly and concisely would be good.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 20, 2011)

It does interest Me that Hes dancing around His Experience like it actually means anything more to Us than Context; Almost like We could somehow use it as a Weapon. Which is marginally amusing.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Im sorry if my post came off as arrogant or disrespectful.  I was trying to explain the context to which I came to martial arts.

The reason I went into the explanation about climbing is that when you are 50 feet of the deck and at the crux move and you are pumped and your last clip is so far below you that it means if you blow the move you are going for a ride where your belayer better do a great catch or you will have a groundfall, your teacher isnt going to be able to come up and say your weight is a little high, tense your muscles in your left leg and shift a bit to your right.  The student is fully responsible for their training and must develop a great deal of proprioception.  It is a self-reliant activity where the individual owns their development and their motivation.  There are no belts or levels.  There are no team extreme competitions with pretty synchronized moves.  There also is no history of needing the person next to you being able to stand firm in a skjaldborg.  In climbing, you need to explicitly not count on anyone else as compared to much of martial arts history.

Climbing moves are graded across a consensus of individuals, but even with in that a hard offwidth (think scraping up a chimney in by inch, it is a very masochistic hobby) is very different than an equivalently hard face climb.  The best climbers must have not only a passion for the activity but a great introspective nature to be able to question a move and feel what is right.  And what is right is worked and worked and worked until a specific move flows.  Climbers will often work a route right at their limit for weeks, months, and sometimes even years.  When they are on the ground they can ask for help and they can watch someone else execute a move, but they must, on their own, figure out how they execute the move.  No two people ever climb the same route in the exact same way.  Coaching is a form of suggesting how someone might, but it is the student who must do.

There is an excellent DVD / book combination call The Self Coached Climber, it is standard fare for a recommendation for all new climbers.  It has way more than any new climber could digest and most people re-read it at different stages in their development.  One of the hidden gems of the DVD is where the filmed two pro climbers trying to redpoint a route (working it repeatedly over the course of several days).  Then, from the same angle, with the same climber the DVD breaks down why the climber was able to execute the move one time and the next time they failed.  The camera revealed the subtle movements and weight shifts, it helped me greatly progress in building my proprioception which has in turn helped with things like my stances and blocks.

These activities in my life have colored my perspective.  I bring a strong student focused aspect to my martial arts training (it is the student that owns their own martial art).  I am always interpreting what I am taught with the filter of both my life history and my expectations for my future.  My odds of facing three thugs on a train are virtually nil, but it is fun to train for multiple attackers in a confined space.  I do, however, put more effort into those things that will more likely benefit me and my life.  I do martial arts as an integrated part of my broader view of how to best live my life.  The WIIFM filter is always on.  If that is wrong in your eyes, so be it.  My hyper critical mind makes me a crappy student for many things (Im much better about not speaking up at corporate training after years of pointing out obvious flaws to the detriment of my career) and I willingly accept that I will never master any single style.  If you think is a less efficient way to learn, we can certainly discuss.  If your assumption is that I would miss things because I lack the experience to judge what is right and what is wrong, you may be right.  However, after spending years developing several skills (not just climbing) in this self-directed style and self-sufficient manner, to say that I would make the same miss as an arrogant teenager is to underestimate my personal development.

I think training of how to learn skills is in itself; a specific skill that needs to be cultivated.  I have trained for it, Im fairly good at it, and I recommend it.

As to the superiority complex, again, I apologize if it came off that way. 


And as to the pills, sorry for the cheezy reference.  Here is the joke:




And the reason for asking the clarification was that I was curious as to why once you have slipped the front kick would you not go for the thumb thrust to the ribs.  I was curious if the kick was more for destabilizing the return to the ground of the attackers foot and slowing their ability to react or if it was intended as strike at a sensitive area (back of knee or pills).  It does have nothing to do with anything else here, Im just curious.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> It does interest Me that Hes dancing around His Experience like it actually means anything more to Us than Context; Almost like We could somehow use it as a Weapon. Which is marginally amusing.



I proudly state that I am a 1st degree dan from a McDojo.  (among a few other minor things.)

I didn't intend that it was dancing around, it was more that, to me, there were other bits that interested me more in replying to.  There have been many statements, questions, and people I wanted to reply to, but I didn't.  If that lended to the appearance that I was dodging the question, I again, appologize.


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I&#8217;m sorry if my post came off as arrogant or disrespectful.  I was trying to explain the context to which I came to martial arts.
> 
> The reason I went into the explanation about climbing is that when you are 50 feet of the deck and at the &#8220;crux&#8221; move and you are pumped and your last clip is so far below you that it means if you blow the move you are going for a ride where your belayer better do a great catch or you will have a groundfall, your teacher isn&#8217;t going to be able to come up and say &#8220;your weight is a little high, tense your muscles in your left leg and shift a bit to your right.&#8221;  The student is fully responsible for their training and must develop a great deal of proprioception.  It is a self-reliant activity where the individual owns their development and their motivation.  There are no belts or levels.  There are no team extreme competitions with pretty synchronized moves.  There also is no history of needing the person next to you being able to stand firm in a skjaldborg.  In climbing, you need to explicitly not count on anyone else as compared to much of martial arts history.
> 
> ...



The problem is that this is absolutely nothing like martial arts training. At all. As a result, they have no real relevance to your martial arts perspective except in your personal philosophy, which isn't anything that we would have a way of relating to.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> These activities in my life have colored my perspective.  I bring a strong &#8220;student focused&#8221; aspect to my martial arts training (it is the student that owns their own martial art).  I am always interpreting what I am taught with the filter of both my life history and my expectations for my future.  My odds of facing three thugs on a train are virtually nil, but it is fun to train for multiple attackers in a confined space.  I do, however, put more effort into those things that will more likely benefit me and my life.  I do martial arts as an integrated part of my broader view of how to best live my life.  The WIIFM filter is always on.  If that is wrong in your eyes, so be it.  My hyper critical mind makes me a crappy student for many things (I&#8217;m much better about not speaking up at corporate training after years of pointing out obvious flaws to the detriment of my career) and I willingly accept that I will never master any single style.  If you think is a less efficient way to learn, we can certainly discuss.  If your assumption is that I would miss things because I lack the experience to judge what is right and what is wrong, you may be right.  However, after spending years developing several skills (not just climbing) in this self-directed style and self-sufficient manner, to say that I would make the same miss as an arrogant teenager is to underestimate my personal development.



Except that we have repeatedly pointed out that this method doesn't work for martial arts. There are just too many differences.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I think training of how to learn skills is in itself; a specific skill that needs to be cultivated.  I have trained for it, I&#8217;m fairly good at it, and I recommend it.



The training needs to be relevant to the skill and application. This method is not when it comes to martial arts.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> As to the superiority complex, again, I apologize if it came off that way.



Not a problem, but you may want to rethink your approach to those who have spent years, or in a number of cases, decades learning this stuff. Continually arguing against those who genuinely do know better because you want to assume that everyone has a limited experience will just get people frustrated in dealings with you. 



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> And as to the &#8220;pills&#8221;, sorry for the cheezy reference.  Here is the joke:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Honestly, it's really not relevant, and the only way for me to really take you through what it is, and why, would be in person (that's the way to learn these things), so there's no real need to answer. But, so you know, the reason you don't just go for the Boshi Ken is that it won't work.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I proudly state that I am a 1st degree dan from a McDojo.  (among a few other minor things.)
> 
> I didn't intend that it was dancing around, it was more that, to me, there were other bits that interested me more in replying to.  There have been many statements, questions, and people I wanted to reply to, but I didn't.  If that lended to the appearance that I was dodging the question, I again, appologize.



Sometimes statements will certainly stand on their own feet without it mattering who they come from, but when it's a discussion of methods of learning, and the person putting forth a pro-DVD argument seems to be displaying no idea whatsoever about martial arts and the way they work and are learnt, the context of who exactly is saying it comes into it. If you're just a person who has seen some Bruce Lee films and has made some uninformed decisions and beliefs, that's a fair enough reason to not listen, if you turn around and say "well, I've trained in 5 systems over the last 30 years, I hold X-Dan in this one, X-Dan in this one etc", then things are a bit different. This is why that particular question, whether it interested you or not, was actually quite vital to the discussion.

Now, your profile lists TKD, and this is the first indication of any rank that I've seen from you. I would ask, though, how you knew the school to be a "McDojo", as that is coming across as a value judgement at the moment, and as you have not mentioned the art yourself, your answer is still far from "clear and concise". Let's see if we can get something solid.

How long have you trained in TKD? Do you still train in it? How long ago was it, if you don't? We'll start there.


----------



## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Toast, I'm going to ask one more time, as going through your posts I see a large number of things leaping out at me, so before I jump to a conclusion, can you clarify if you have any actual martial arts background at all? Not dismissing anything you feel is unimportant, not looking at a personal philosophy of how you decide to classify them (Warren Buffet as a "great martial artist"? No, not a damn chance, unless you can tell me his ranking in a school), or anything similar, I'm interested in if you have any real experience at all. Clearly and concisely would be good.


 
I apologize for missing this at the bottom, I saw that you spoke to another, so I initially missed this.

The Warren Buffet comment was about if we consider that it is a great ability of a martial artist to strike and be safe from harm from a strike, than the classic quote of &#8220;fight without fighting&#8221; comes into play. (As in safety step #1:  don&#8217;t be on the ghetto train at 3:00 a.m. in the morning.).  Then logically, Mr. Buffet is further from harm than us and has the ability to inflict harm to a level that we do not possess.  If you have a further refined measure of martial arts, I&#8217;d be curious to know where you draw the line.  I was trying to say that I take a very broad view of martial arts.  Your definition may vary.

And, as far as I know, WB is only good a bridge.  He is ranked at that (and on Forbes richest) but not with any combat arts.

I am curious &#8211; what are those large number of things that leaping out to me?  Right or wrong about me, I would like to know.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Well, for starters, that entire post. There is no definition of a martial artist as someone who remains "safe from harm from a strike" at all, a martial artist is someone who studies martial arts. Next is the lack of any real understanding in the training methods of martial arts, what they are designed to instill, and how that is achieved (which is exactly why your rock climbing references are completely irrelevant). That is then followed by no reference to any training, other than what you describe as "not getting into fights" and "crap".


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Now, your profile lists TKD, and this is the first indication of any rank that I've seen from you. I would ask, though, how you knew the school to be a "McDojo", as that is coming across as a value judgement at the moment, and as you have not mentioned the art yourself, your answer is still far from "clear and concise". Let's see if we can get something solid.
> 
> How long have you trained in TKD? Do you still train in it? How long ago was it, if you don't? We'll start there.


 
I know this may not solve our current impasse.  But please, may I ask a few questions:

How much money did you make last year (it is a commonly accepted notion of success in a western world that more income equals a better understanding of life)?  Have your kids developed in a way that has them on the honor roll (it is, again a commonly accepted notion of success that the ability to parent well is a great indicator the quality of an individual)?  How well do you understand quantum mechanics (it is, again a commonly accepted notion that people who understand this are smart).

I ask because it would seem that it would be proper to know if you are someone who is smart, successful, and a great parent. 

I kindly await your reply.  And yes, I will be as clear and concise as possible with my next reply.  Okay, I have trouble with consise, but I will try.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

We are not discussing financial success, parenting strategies, or theoretical physics, son. We are discussing learning methods for martial arts, hence your background being relevant when you come at this from such a flawed viewpoint and continue to insist on arguing.

But, for the record, my finances were fine, I have no kids, and I've been explaining quantum and string theory to people for years.

Answer the question.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Well, for starters, that entire post. There is no definition of a martial artist as someone who remains "safe from harm from a strike" at all, a martial artist is someone who studies martial arts. Next is the lack of any real understanding in the training methods of martial arts, what they are designed to instill, and how that is achieved (which is exactly why your rock climbing references are completely irrelevant). That is then followed by no reference to any training, other than what you describe as "not getting into fights" and "crap".


 
I take &#8220;martial&#8221; at the broadest definition, meaning the ability to inflict, with or without force, one&#8217;s will.  One could study military strategy and, to me, be a martial artist, without ever punching a single bag.  One could be a desk jockey capable of nothing more than throwing up and, if they have an understanding of how remote drones work, then they are, to me, a martial artist.  Artist, again to me, comes only from the study of either a broad swath or a deep look at a single aspect.  Again, the guy who knows everything about remote killing machines is, by definition, martial and their great depth of knowledge approaches artistry.  Now, is that the same as someone who trains physically to defend oneself?  It is, to me, only a matter of degrees and technology.

Often the word &#8220;traditional&#8221; is thrown in front of martial artist to differentiate between the use of modern weapons and, usually, the use of non-gunpowder (and especially non-nuclear) weaponry.  I&#8217;ll quote Sun Tzu &#8220;The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.&#8221;  This is martial arts, is it not?


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## Cyriacus (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I take &#8220;martial&#8221; at the broadest definition, meaning the ability to inflict, with or without force, one&#8217;s will.  One could study military strategy and, to me, be a martial artist, without ever punching a single bag.  One could be a desk jockey capable of nothing more than throwing up and, if they have an understanding of how remote drones work, then they are, to me, a martial artist.  Artist, again to me, comes only from the study of either a broad swath or a deep look at a single aspect.  Again, the guy who knows everything about remote killing machines is, by definition, martial and their great depth of knowledge approaches artistry.  Now, is that the same as someone who trains physically to defend oneself?  It is, to me, only a matter of degrees and technology.
> 
> Often the word &#8220;traditional&#8221; is thrown in front of martial artist to differentiate between the use of modern weapons and, usually, the use of non-gunpowder (and especially non-nuclear) weaponry.  I&#8217;ll quote Sun Tzu &#8220;The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.&#8221;  This is martial arts, is it not?



The Martial part is the Combat/Engagement side. Exclusively.
The Art side is where You get to play with it a bit, and add in stuff like Pacifism and Ethics.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

You're on a martial arts forum, for people who train in martial arts. That's the contextual definition here, son. Not whatever you want it to be, as that is completely baseless, irrelevant, and damn arrogant. You really don't need to quote Sun Tzu to me, but I would question whether or not you understood what he meant by that.

You remember what I said about frustrating those who have been doing this for decades? This is what I meant. Get over yourself, answer the questions that have been posed to you.


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## Indagator (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I know this may not solve our current impasse.  But please, may I ask a few questions:
> 
> How much money did you make last year (it is a commonly accepted notion of success in a western world that more income equals a better understanding of life)?  Have your kids developed in a way that has them on the honor roll (it is, again a commonly accepted notion of success that the ability to parent well is a great indicator the quality of an individual)?  How well do you understand quantum mechanics (it is, again a commonly accepted notion that people who understand this are smart).
> 
> ...



Sriously, this is a piss-take right?


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> We are not discussing financial success, parenting strategies, or theoretical physics, son. We are discussing learning methods for martial arts, hence your background being relevant when you come at this from such a flawed viewpoint and continue to insist on arguing.
> 
> But, for the record, my finances were fine, I have no kids, and I've been explaining quantum and string theory to people for years.
> 
> Answer the question.


 
Son?  Really, one should treat one&#8217;s elders with more respect.  I asked for specifics that you seem to be asking for, and your evasive answers speak volumes.

To step back, I&#8217;m 46 years old.  My youth was not spent in martial arts, but was in other pursuits.  I played most American sports (baseball, basketball, track and soccer).  I was quite good in soccer, but a knee injury prevented any great success (and there wasn&#8217;t much organized soccer back then in the USA).  I did play rugby in college, but it could have been just for the beer.  My degree is in Physics with a specialization in some of the early use of computers to simulate phase shifts of materials.

From there, since physics doesn&#8217;t break, and computers do, it was off to the workplace fixing computers.  From there, it has been a very eclectic collection of technology and manufacturing related roles taking me first to the rural areas (guns a plenty) and then to the flatlands of America.  Along the way, I met, and married my wonderful wife who is the only person I accept any appeals to authority from.  We have two kids.

I did take up climbing in one of the flattest parts of the country and I did learn how to setup anchors from a book and browsing on the internet.  And yes, I am still alive today.  And yes, I am an acrophobic.  I&#8217;m physically spent for a good ten minutes after setting up a top rope anchor.

After a second knee injury on my part (the story starts with &#8220;I bought my son a snowboard&#8221; and usually doesn&#8217;t need to go on from there), I began, about five years ago in the ATA.  We had signed my son up and frankly I couldn&#8217;t sit still in the back of the class, so I got up and participated.  I&#8217;ve found some parts easy, but my adductors aren&#8217;t very flexible so while I&#8217;m good to the front (that old soccer kick), I&#8217;m not so good to the side.

Since I started martial arts over forty, my goals are simply to see more threats and be better able to react to them.  I do participate in ATA competitions, I do well in sparring (mostly I think, due to my conditioning relative to people my age) but I suck in forms.  I have no patience for them.  My wife and daughter also participate.  My wife and I also do some Krav.  Krav is more to my liking, but I do so like the competitive nature of TKD sparring.

I make roughly 100k a year, both of my kids are on the honor role, and yes, I can explain quantum mechanics.  I can also talk about:  Food, Anthropology, Comparative Biology, Archeology, Paleontology, Electrical Wiring, Plumbing, Market Policy, Learning Theories, Statistics, Law, Business Management, Finance, Sarbanes-Oxley Compliance, Model-Netics, Genetics,  Database Structures, Project Methodologies, Change Management, Continuous Improvement, Fung Shui, Mycology, Rock Climbing, and sometimes, just sometimes, Martial Arts.

So please, please, tell me where in my life did I possibly develop this flawed viewpoint?  Is it that I know too much about too many other things?

(and I was at least right, I wasn't concise.)


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Indagator said:


> Sriously, this is a piss-take right?


Yup.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> You're on a martial arts forum, for people who train in martial arts. That's the contextual definition here, son. Not whatever you want it to be, as that is completely baseless, irrelevant, and damn arrogant. You really don't need to quote Sun Tzu to me, but I would question whether or not you understood what he meant by that.
> 
> You remember what I said about frustrating those who have been doing this for decades? This is what I meant. Get over yourself, answer the questions that have been posed to you.



It interesting that you came back with "son" a second time and thrown in arrogant more than once and the desire to have questions directly answered is interesting.

I apologize if I'm frustrating to you, for the most part I've found your posts quite enjoyable.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> The Martial part is the Combat/Engagement side. Exclusively.
> The Art side is where You get to play with it a bit, and add in stuff like Pacifism and Ethics.



Could you consider someone who was an expert as a remote drone specialist a Martial Artist?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Son? Really, one should treat one&#8217;s elders with more respect. I asked for specifics that you seem to be asking for, and your evasive answers speak volumes.
> 
> To step back, I&#8217;m 46 years old. My youth was not spent in martial arts, but was in other pursuits. I played most American sports (baseball, basketball, track and soccer). I was quite good in soccer, but a knee injury prevented any great success (and there wasn&#8217;t much organized soccer back then in the USA). I did play rugby in college, but it could have been just for the beer. My degree is in Physics with a specialization in some of the early use of computers to simulate phase shifts of materials.
> 
> ...



Most of that post was frankly irrelevant. Firstly, though, the term "son" was used as you're acting like a kid, playing a game of non-cooperation, and to point out that, in terms of the arts, you are the young, inexperienced one here. Next, I did answer the questions you posed pretty directly, even though they have absolutely nothing to do with what you were being asked or why. That makes all of your details answering your own questions laughable, really, as it has nothing to do with anything here. In fact, the only relevant parts are found in the fifth and sixth paragraph, with you then going off on a completely unrelated and pointless tangent for the last ones.

However, we have gotten some information out of you.

To sum up - Five years ago you started in ATA, and have since earned a Shodan (Chodan in Korean systems, I believe), you like the sparring, but not the forms (where the art actually lives), and have done some Krav Maga. Right.

Where did your flawed viewpoint come from? Honestly, I'd say arrogance in believing that you know better than people a lot more experienced than you are, using your perceived intelligence, financial earnings, and achievements of your kids as justification for such things. At least, that's what it reads like from here. And honestly, you don't want a list of the things I can speak on.

From here, though, I'd suggest pulling your head in a bit, and recognising that when experienced people all say the same thing, it usually means something. You may also want to look a little closer at how you've been taught, as you'll see a range of things that are present, even in the "McDojo" training, that cannot be there in a DVD.

Oh, and admitting that something you've posted is a "piss take" in responce to people asking you serious questions can be taken as trolling (posting just to work people up or waste their time), which can have some pretty severe consequences. I'd watch that as well.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> It interesting that you came back with "son" a second time and thrown in arrogant more than once and the desire to have questions directly answered is interesting.
> 
> I apologize if I'm frustrating to you, for the most part I've found your posts quite enjoyable.



I honestly question the sincerity of this sentiment. 

This is a discussion board, of course I want questions answered directly, that's how we gain more information and continue the discussion. If you don't get that, however...



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Could you consider someone who was an expert as a remote drone specialist a Martial Artist?



No.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> I honestly question the sincerity of this sentiment.
> 
> This is a discussion board, of course I want questions answered directly, that's how we gain more information and continue the discussion. If you don't get that, however...
> 
> ...



I am honest and sincere.  Please kindly assume that I and all of my posts were with the honest intention of explaining via posts who I am and why I think you have miscast me.  I do hope we continue to get to know each other in mutual respect.

If I may ask for more detail - why would you not consider that person a Martial Artist?


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## mook jong man (Nov 20, 2011)

I don't have much money , I don't have kids , I know jack **** about quantum mechanics.
But what I do know , is how to teach people not to get their faces smashed in when the **** hits the fan and it goes physical.

The reason I can do that is because I was taught by great instructors who would actually put their hands on me and put my arms in the correct positions , as well as by trial and error against countless training partners.
That sort of experience only comes from sweat and blood , not from books , internet or DVD's.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and admitting that something you've posted is a "piss take" in responce to people asking you serious questions can be taken as trolling (posting just to work people up or waste their time), which can have some pretty severe consequences. I'd watch that as well.


 
It wasnt a troll and I dont need the definition spelled out.

What you consider irrelevant, I consider important.  I was only trying to highlight that.  (And the reason for the piss take was that I dont really care about your finances, if you have kids, or what, if any, degrees you have.)


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I am honest and sincere.  Please kindly assume that I and all of my posts were with the honest intention of explaining via posts who I am and why I think you have miscast me.  I do hope we continue to get to know each other in mutual respect.



We can't see you here. We can't hear what the tone in your voice is. All we have to go on are the words you type. And when a topic is on the training methods for martial arts, for all we know, with the answers you were providing, you could have been a 17 year old kid with some friends who have done some karate and shown you a kick or two while you're watching Ninja Assassin. As a result, plain answers to straight questions would be preferred, as it will avoid you being cast in such ways. You were asked repeatedly about exactly what you martial arts background is, and the responce we were getting was "well, I consider martial arts to be broader than others, and I go rock climbing... ", which gives no real answers, nor any explanation of who you are in the context of this forum whatsoever. Sadly, due to that beginning, you have an uphill battle. But this is a good step in the right direction.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> If I may ask for more detail - why would you not consider that person a Martial Artist?



Because they aren't one in that context. There is a difference between a martial artist and a soldier, military personnel, or a fighter. There can be some cross-over, but they are still very different.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I don't have much money , I don't have kids , I know jack **** about quantum mechanics.
> But what I do know , is how to teach people not to get their faces smashed in when the **** hits the fan and it goes physical.
> 
> The reason I can do that is because I was taught by great instructors who would actually put their hands on me and put my arms in the correct positions , as well as by trial and error against countless training partners.
> That sort of experience only comes from sweat and blood , not from books , internet or DVD's.



Just wanted you to know, this made me smile.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> It wasn&#8217;t a troll and I don&#8217;t need the definition spelled out.



You're new here (and you just made an error in terminology... it would be either "it wasn't a troll post", or "I'm not being a troll", or something similar, rather than "it wasn't a troll", which doesn't make sense), so I thought you may not be familiar with the term.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> What you consider irrelevant, I consider important.  I was only trying to highlight that.  (And the reason for the &#8220;piss take&#8221; was that I don&#8217;t really care about your finances, if you have kids, or what, if any, degrees you have.)



Then why ask it? Was it to show that you didn't think your martial arts background was relevant either in a thread about how best to learn martial arts? Seriously?


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Because they aren't one in that context. There is a difference between a martial artist and a soldier, military personnel, or a fighter. There can be some cross-over, but they are still very different.



For you, what is that difference?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> For you, what is that difference?



The martial artist trains in a martial art. That is a systematised approach to combative applications on a personal level with a complete philosophical base (which provides the core beliefs and values to the system itself, extending into an expression of it's techniques). The remote drone specialist is a technician employed with a military role who does a job.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Could you consider someone who was an expert as a remote drone specialist a Martial Artist?



No.
I would call them a Remote Drone Specialist.
Youre playing it too loose with the Definitions.

Much like how I could say, Noone is an Expert in ANYTHING because there is always someone somewere who has or will do better, and there is no way of affirming who that is on an ongoing basis. Therefore Expert is a false Term, and the Individual can only be "Highly Experienced".
A Martial Art refers to a Weaponless or Weapon Baring System of Self Defense, or Combative Offense. If You play fast and loose with Definitions, and say anyone who practices anything that can Harm another Person is a Martial Artist is to neglect what the Term Refers to based on its Looser Definitions.
As another example, Martial Art, Martial Style, and Martial Sport, as well as Martial Form are used Interchangably by many People, even though theyre all very different. Art may refer to where You can alter it, but only where You can alter the Martial side of it. And the Martial side of it refers to an act of Physical Violence, be it with or without Weapons (And before You jump on that, Weapons as in Not-Firearms, Not-Explosives, Not-UAVs, Not-Anything-Like-That).
Hence the Term, "Martial Art", as oppose to two Separate Terms. This Logic is also present in the Term "Second Lieutenant". It isnt Second, Lieutenant. Its Second Lieutenant. One Term, Two Words. Where does one find a Second Lieutenant?
"*Second lieutenant is a junior commissioned officer military rank in many armed forces."
*But wait! Lieutenant is just below Officer. Therefore, if You are a Man who is Armed with a Weapon, who has at least One Friend who is Armed with a Weapon, then You are an Armed Force. And can therefore possess the title of Second Lieutenant, should You so choose. Because You and some other Guy own Firearms. This is literally, no different to Your Example.

Its the Two Words forming One Term. And Martial Art, does not refer to Remote Drone Operators.


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## mook jong man (Nov 20, 2011)

I think a few people that I have tried to teach in the past have been remotely operated drones.
The body was there , but the mind definitely wasn't.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Then why ask it? Was it to show that you didn't think your martial arts background was relevant either in a thread about how best to learn martial arts? Seriously?



 It wasn't to not show that my martial arts background was relevant (I almost threw another negative in there, I hope that ended up right). As someone who came to Martial Arts later in life I bring an experience and understanding that sometimes I've seen lacking in younger people who grew up in it. (Yeah I know - that might sound arrogant, but trust me, it isn't.)  As I outlined, I'm a broad sampler who makes connections between different disparate systems. My day job is to understand both complex structures and to get people to like nasty change. I work to understand the function and makeup of "what" is happening at a very deep level and then to explain it in very simple words. This applies to my martial arts as well. I, personally, don't really get anything until I get the "why". (As in why do you kick following the slip to the side?)



Why would you only focus someone's martial arts history? (yeah, I know this is a martial arts forum)



I would want to know the whole thing so that I could understand your perspective. If you have 20 years of yourself training, but have zero years dealing with the unique and special frustration that your only your own kid can provide, that does tell me a little about how you teach. (yeah, I know, everyone says "when you have your own kid, it is different", but yeah it is.)



If you pursue a life of wealth, that does tell me that you would be a good source for efficient teaching, but not necessarily good at teaching to build bonds between people (at least in my opinion).

If you give advice to a teenager, but have never been a parent of a teenager, you would in all likelihood give a different answer.  I&#8217;m saying that your answer would be wrong, just different.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> It wasn't to not show that my martial arts background was relevant (I almost threw another negative in there, I hope that ended up right). As someone who came to Martial Arts later in life I bring an experience and understanding that sometimes I've seen lacking in younger people who grew up in it. (Yeah I know - that might sound arrogant, but trust me, it isn't.)  As I outlined, I'm a broad sampler who makes connections between different disparate systems. My day job is to understand both complex structures and to get people to like nasty change. I work to understand the function and makeup of "what" is happening at a very deep level and then to explain it in very simple words. This applies to my martial arts as well. I, personally, don't really get anything until I get the "why". (As in why do you kick following the slip to the side?)



You may bring experience in other things, but martial arts is something that we bring experience in. If I want advice for rock climbing, I might ask you, but I wouldn't second guess and tell you how it is. That's what you're doing here.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Why would you only focus someone's martial arts history? (yeah, I know this is a martial arts forum)



Because it is directly related to the topic and the responses you've been giving. 



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> I would want to know the whole thing so that I could understand your perspective. If you have 20 years of yourself training, but have zero years dealing with the unique and special frustration that your only your own kid can provide, that does tell me a little about how you teach. (yeah, I know, everyone says "when you have your own kid, it is different", but yeah it is.)



 None of which has anything to do with the teaching or training of martial arts. It really doesn't.



Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> If you pursue a life of wealth, that does tell me that you would be a good source for efficient teaching, but not necessarily good at teaching to build bonds between people (at least in my opinion).
> 
> If you give advice to a teenager, but have never been a parent of a teenager, you would in all likelihood give a different answer.  I&#8217;m saying that your answer would be wrong, just different.



And again, you're making connections where there aren't any, and discussing this is an area that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the thread topic of learning from DVDs.


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## WC_lun (Nov 20, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I don't have much money , I don't have kids , I know jack **** about quantum mechanics.
> But what I do know , is how to teach people not to get their faces smashed in when the **** hits the fan and it goes physical.
> 
> The reason I can do that is because I was taught by great instructors who would actually put their hands on me and put my arms in the correct positions , as well as by trial and error against countless training partners.
> That sort of experience only comes from sweat and blood , not from books , internet or DVD's.



"Martial arts that aren't felt, aren't learned."  I don't know where I heard that, but I am sure I didn't make it up.

Mook, I'd rep you, but I guess you posted something else I liked recently


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## mook jong man (Nov 21, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> "Martial arts that aren't felt, aren't learned."  I don't know where I heard that, but I am sure I didn't make it up.
> 
> Mook, I'd rep you, but I guess you posted something else I liked recently



You probably read it off the back of a Corn Flakes box.   :lol:


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 21, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> And again, you're making connections where there aren't any, and discussing this is an area that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the thread topic of learning from DVDs.



 Yeah, I had a bit more in that post back to the OP and I snipped it just prior to shutting down for the night.  Let me see if I can put it out there and see if it can make any sense.


Let&#8217;s go back to the OP.  I&#8217;ll add in some color.  We have kid who is just gone off to college; mostly he&#8217;s spent the last year playing Assassin&#8217;s Creed.  Since about 16 he stopped playing b-ball and other sports.  As a parent I had encouraged boxing, but when the teacher died it did freak him out a bit.  We aren&#8217;t poor, but he has been a bit &#8220;aimless&#8221;.  He has, from Assassin&#8217;s Creed and some friends, started to take an interest in Martial Arts.

Now some of his buddies go to a dojo which produces some DVD&#8217;s on Martial Arts training, he wants to know if he should ask his friends if he could borrow them.

The indomitable Mook knows the videos (hell we&#8217;ll even say they are the DVD&#8217;s the ATA put out).  He knows that they are only good as a very, very, very small part of the training and, as a martial artist would say &#8220;their crap &#8211; don&#8217;t even waste your time borrowing them.&#8221;  His analysis of the DVD material is perfectly accurate.

As a father with no martial arts experience, but with experience as a father, my reaction isn&#8217;t to the DVD, but to the request.  I am seeing a positive peer group that is encouraging him to do something besides play video games.  I don&#8217;t know what is on the DVD, and for the purposes of getting engagement with martial arts, it doesn&#8217;t matter if the DVD is the ATA training or Tai Bo or Fists of Fury 3.(*)  All that matters to me as a father is that he gets of the couch and starts towards the dojo.  Emulating his friends who go 30k to train while he is in class isn&#8217;t a bad first step.  I expect it only to be a first, small step, but I would want the OP to take that step no matter what.  Action towards a goal is better than no action.  If he doesn&#8217;t take this first small step he will be less likely to take the next step of re-arranging his class schedule next quarter to go with his friends.  So as a father I would say &#8220;sure, go ahead, borrow the DVD, just remember it is only a first small step towards a bigger goal&#8221;.

In fact, as a father, I would encourage him to get excited about martial arts.  The OP wants to spend a few hours on youtube looking at ghetto figts &#8211; sure!  The OP wants to spend time looking at different ninjutsu styles &#8211; go for it!  Do I think he is actually learning a martial art?  Nope.  Do I think it is getting him that one step closer to the dojo &#8211; yes I do.

This is not to say that Mook isn&#8217;t right.  He is, of course right that they are crap and for building his martial arts skills, they are a waste of time for the OP&#8217;s martial arts development.   The advice I gave above does not contradict this, it only looks at it from a different perspective and gives different advice.





(*) OK, I lied, if it was Fists of Fury 3 he would not be able to finish watching it and the OP would likely break the DVD in half and slit his wrists rather than try to watch it a second time.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 21, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Yeah, I had a bit more in that post back to the OP and I snipped it just prior to shutting down for the night.  Let me see if I can put it out there and see if it can make any sense.
> 
> 
> Let&#8217;s go back to the OP.  I&#8217;ll add in some color.  We have kid who is just gone off to college; mostly he&#8217;s spent the last year playing Assassin&#8217;s Creed.  Since about 16 he stopped playing b-ball and other sports.  As a parent I had encouraged boxing, but when the teacher died it did freak him out a bit.  We aren&#8217;t poor, but he has been a bit &#8220;aimless&#8221;.  He has, from Assassin&#8217;s Creed and some friends, started to take an interest in Martial Arts.
> ...


This is pretty much what Chris said to begin with, about how DVDs and Videos are a good way to Learn ABOUT MA.


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## mook jong man (Nov 21, 2011)

I don't think DVD's are crap , I can watch different DVD's on Wing Chun and learn something new from them , but that is because I'm already experienced and know how the system works.But someone that was new or from outside the system might find it very difficult to understand exactly what it is they are looking at.


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## jks9199 (Nov 21, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> As a father with no martial arts experience, but with experience as a father, my reaction isnt to the DVD, but to the request.  I am seeing a positive peer group that is encouraging him to do something besides play video games.  I dont know what is on the DVD, and for the purposes of getting engagement with martial arts, it doesnt matter if the DVD is the ATA training or Tai Bo or Fists of Fury 3.(*)  All that matters to me as a father is that he gets of the couch and starts towards the dojo.  Emulating his friends who go 30k to train while he is in class isnt a bad first step.  I expect it only to be a first, small step, but I would want the OP to take that step no matter what.  Action towards a goal is better than no action.  If he doesnt take this first small step he will be less likely to take the next step of re-arranging his class schedule next quarter to go with his friends.  So as a father I would say sure, go ahead, borrow the DVD, just remember it is only a first small step towards a bigger goal.



But, if his interest were rock climbing and he were to head out the door with his buddies dragging a hank of clothesline  --- you'd stop him, right?

Encouraging him to train with the videos is pretty much the same thing.  It's an invitation to frustration and injury; he won't understand why he can't get things done that he sees in the movies or videos because he lacks the underlying fundamentals and principles.  Watching the videos to learn ABOUT the martial arts is OK and good.  But not to train...


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 22, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> But, if his interest were rock climbing and he were to head out the door with his buddies dragging a hank of clothesline  --- you'd stop him, right?
> 
> Encouraging him to train with the videos is pretty much the same thing.  It's an invitation to frustration and injury; he won't understand why he can't get things done that he sees in the movies or videos because he lacks the underlying fundamentals and principles.  Watching the videos to learn ABOUT the martial arts is OK and good.  But not to train...



Hmm.  As a parent.  Well, let me see.

My son&#8217;s favorite t-shirt says &#8220;I&#8217;ve seen it on TV, I think I can do it&#8221; (yes, he actually gets the irony).  My son was (and in a way still is) the kid who climbs outside of the playground set and climbs to the top and waves and yell &#8220;hi mom&#8221; and his mom waves back (the looks of horrors on the other mom&#8217;s faces is always priceless).  And since even some of our &#8220;safe&#8221; family outings have had some slight mishaps (nothing like being lost in a desert for a few hours to really bring the family together), I may not be the best parent to ask if I would shelter my kid.

But let&#8217;s get very specific; say he wanted to try to recreate some 1920&#8217;s climbing (hobnail boots, hemp rope and a body belay).  Would I let him?  Sure.

If he wanted to recreate the best of Dan Osman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si2j6IaKQGU&feature=related) (the jump that killed him is about half the way thru &#8211; it is the &#8220;fade to smoke&#8221; fall) or Dean Potter (http://player.testing2.vimeo.com/7255734) (my son did like this one a lot).  Would I let him?  Sure.

But my son has also watched &#8220;Touching the Void&#8221;.  It isn&#8217;t rock climbing but it is considered one of the greatest mountaineering survival stories ever.  One of the best testaments to what the human will can do.  (If you haven&#8217;t seen it, I strongly recommend it.)  And the key is that we have talked about risks and how to evaluate risks.

See, I&#8217;m big on teaching my kid to teach himself.  So if he thinks he knows after watching a DVD of something how to do it, I, after questioning him, trust him.  We have worked all of his life to develop the ability to explore and learn for himself.  So yeah, he can go for it.  Would I recommend that to an OP who posted once on a site &#8211; no I wouldn&#8217;t.  But to my own son can go for it.

As for unlearning bad habits, as someone who started far later in life than probably most others on this board, I do feel that I do have some personal insight there.  For me, one of the big insights was how to move my feet.  Really.  If I had known how to do that when I was much younger, my basketball defense might have been more than spinning gate.  (Fortunately I have the APE of an ape, so I could at least block shots).  And over the course of my life I&#8217;ve unlearned many, many things.  However, I have to say, for me, it isn&#8217;t as hard to unlearn a habit as it is generally considered.  But that could be just my perspective; I haven&#8217;t seen any studies to back that up.


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Nov 22, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I don't think DVD's are crap , I can watch different DVD's on Wing Chun and learn something new from them , but that is because I'm already experienced and know how the system works.But someone that was new or from outside the system might find it very difficult to understand exactly what it is they are looking at.



I'm sorry if I misrepesented your opinion in any way.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 22, 2011)

This is a really strange discussion


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## jks9199 (Nov 22, 2011)

Toast_in_the_Machine said:


> Hmm.  As a parent.  Well, let me see.
> 
> My son&#8217;s favorite t-shirt says &#8220;I&#8217;ve seen it on TV, I think I can do it&#8221; (yes, he actually gets the irony).  My son was (and in a way still is) the kid who climbs outside of the playground set and climbs to the top and waves and yell &#8220;hi mom&#8221; and his mom waves back (the looks of horrors on the other mom&#8217;s faces is always priceless).  And since even some of our &#8220;safe&#8221; family outings have had some slight mishaps (nothing like being lost in a desert for a few hours to really bring the family together), I may not be the best parent to ask if I would shelter my kid.
> 
> ...




None of that is what I said.  I said "a hunk of clothesline."  I  don't care if you go plastic coated or cotton -- but I'm talking  clothesline, used to hang clothes.  That stretches and has almost no  dynamic holding strength (as one of my buddies who spent a week in the  hospital in our teens can confirm). 

What you don't seem to be getting is that there are a very few great talents who can figure out fighting all on their own.  There are probably a few more who can work from a book or video, and figure it out without help.  But most of us?  Nope.  We need the hands on, direct guidance to put it all together.

The term "sensei", I'm told reliably, can be translated "one who has gone before."  I think that there's a lot of relevance in that term in the martial arts:  a martial arts teacher helps you learn because he's been there, and can show you how to get where he is.  (Maybe it's kind of like following an established route on a climb compared to making your own route.)  A video or book can't communicate some nuances; it just doesn't work.  I can look at a student, and realize that his stance, while it appears to be right, isn't really going to work because pieces of his alignment are off.  (I still need outside eyes on occasion; whether my teacher or partner... sometimes, I just need someone to be able to look at what I'm doing and catch something that has drifted a little bit off.)

You're apparently something of an autodidact.  Great.  But some things simply can't be learned that way.  Question your teachers until you find someone that you trust to lead you down the path -- but then you must place your trust in them.  A good teacher will lead you to places you couldn't even have perceived when you started.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 23, 2011)

As JKS said, the term "sensei" literally means "former born", or "born beforehand", meaning someone who's been there, and done that (and typically made the same stupid mistakes already...), and it's this previous experience that allows an instructor to guide a student. They use that experience to watch, see where mistakes they made in their earlier studies are coming out, and where they need to be corrected. A DVD can't do that.

But that's really not even the main thing here. The biggest issue that I can see is that you don't seem to understand how martial arts skill is developed. It is not a matter of mechanical "put this foot here, and this one here, turn your hips X-degrees, and push your fist out to punch". That's just a tiny part of it, to the point that I almost don't consider it at all. My student's will tell you that I'm a stickler for correct form, but it's not because "that's how your feet go", it's a bigger picture thing. It's to do with why the feet are the way they are, why the hips turn that way, and how that all fits within the bigger picture of the system itself. Simple mechanical replication is nothing like actual martial education.

Next is the intended usage or application. This is where your whole rock climbing idea is completely irrelevant. The aim in terms of a martial arts application or usage is as an automatic, spontaneous response to a sudden stimulus (attack), in which you have no time to consciously think things through and make a decision, you can only give over to the training, and hope that it was designed properly to instill such skills. In rock climbing, you can plan out your route, decide where you're going to put this foot or that hand, take your time to look for the next hold, and so on. As a result, the usage and application are completely removed from martial application and usage.

Frankly the new, added hypotheticals you've been supplying mean absolutely nothing at all. You are trying to add a false context where it doesn't exist in order to make your flawed case, and your case still doesn't work, and I really don't know what they have to do with the idea of learning a martial art from a DVD. It really doesn't matter if the kid was playing Assassin's Creed every day for two years, he won't be able to learn a martial art from a DVD. And that is the point. You, as a parent, might think you're encouraging him by indulging, but that doesn't mean he can learn a martial art from a DVD. Good or bad parenting doesn't come into this, as it's completely irrelevant to the discussion itself.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2011)

Learning martial arts off DVD's is the same as learning to swim on dry land. Not original but holds true all the same.


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