# Sparring with Wing Chun



## Kung Fu Banter (Jan 28, 2011)

Do you feel we should be sparring, or should we be anti sparring ie, your oppponent moves around and our WC approach should be almost just either rush in and shut him down or when he tries to strike we counter then rush in and attempt to finish him!!!!!Now I do spar, but I hardly move until im ready to pounce.What are your tactics when sparring?


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## mook jong man (Jan 28, 2011)

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed on here before ad nauseum.
So I will just cut and paste some words of advice from one of my favourite authors.

Originally Posted by *yak sao* 

 
_I think this is the best approach for WT/WC sparring. 
While sparring long, continuous rounds are good for building stamina, which in turn will build mental toughness, ie. fighting spirit, I believe it to be counterproductive to good WT skills development.
*Sparring, with its give and take, I hit you, you hit me, is not how WT people should train.*
Remember, we are a fighting system, and a real fight should be over in a matter of a few seconds, not in a few rounds.
*When your opponent attacks, intercept, and dominate*.....chain punch, kick, knees elbows, whatever presents itself. *Go for 5 or 6 seconds and then reset.*
*It's important that your training partner resist during this 5 or 6 seconds, not simply throw his initial attack and then stand there and take a beating.*
By having him resist, you will be developing real world sensitivity to use against a violent attack, not merely theoretical concepts developed during chi sau.

Also, don't always start from long range. *Mix it up. Sometimes have your opponent start from boxing range, or right in your face.* I know in a perfect world we would keep our opponent at range and intercept, but bad guys don't always cooperate. So vary the ranges and positions you start from._


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## yak sao (Jan 28, 2011)

I consider that high praise coming from you mook....thanks


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## mook jong man (Jan 28, 2011)

yak sao said:


> I consider that high praise coming from you mook....thanks


 
No worries mate  ....... and by the way this doesn't mean we'll be swapping spit in the showers.


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## yak sao (Jan 28, 2011)

I tried to come up with a snappy retort...I got nothing


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## cwk (Jan 28, 2011)

I think sparring has it's place but i would spend more time on situational drills like what was mentioned here and have been mentioned before. Just make sure that the drills are as realistic as possible, pad up if you have to and really try to hit each other with force.


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## wkmark (Jan 28, 2011)

Sparring has it's use as long as both parties know what each one is trying to achieve.  You pad up and hit full force so that you can work on timing, quicker speed and positioning.  However the thing to remember is to not have it end up being an all out brawl fest.  That defeats the purpose of full contact sparring.


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## Victor Parlati (Jan 28, 2011)

Good post, wkmark.

I think that sparring with gear and hard contact constantly (ie.- at least once every week) is an absolute must. And sparring against really good boxers should be at the top of that list - as well as wrestlers/grapplers/mma trained guys, etc.

There's no other way to really know whether or not what you're doing with your wing chun is any good or not.


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## cwk (Jan 29, 2011)

I've gave this some more thought-
I think it all depends on what your training for. if your focus is on competing or testing yourself in sparring matches with other styles then 1 to 1 full contact sparring is the way to go. On the other hand, if you're mainly training for SD, then focusing on full contact, realistic situation drills might be better. 
When I spar with my regular training partner we usually start off at a distance to each other and have to close the gap, use entry techniques,etc. With situation drills you might start at face to face, from the side with the attacker already ready to swing, 2 on 1 etc,etc.
Also it's good to train with foul language,shouting and screaming,shoving and all the other nonsense that usually comes before the actual fight.
Personally, I like to train both when i get chance.

just my tuppence.


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## El_Nastro (Feb 12, 2011)

The short answer:

You should be doing chi sau, or fighting. No sparring.

The long answer:

I asked my WC sifu that same question a few years ago, & here's basically what he told me:

"Sparring" is what boxers do. We do WC. We're not boxers. We don't "spar", because that's what boxers do. 

Every martial art has a freestyle exercise where both participants can practice all of their skills...Tai Chi has push-hands, Jiu Jitsu has rolling, Wing Chun has chi sau, and Boxers have sparring.  

When Jiu Jitsu guys roll, they're practicing their strategy for a fight, but they're not training to fight the same way as a boxer. The moment Jiu Jitsu men stop rolling, stand up, & start throwing jabs, crosses, and hooks at each other they're no longer training Jiu Jitsu - at that point they're doing something entirely different - they're training boxing. 

Conversely, the moment a boxer tackles his sparring partner & starts trying to get him to tap out, they're no longer sparring...they're practicing an entirely different fighting strategy. 

The same is true for Wing Chun. The moment you stop doing Chi Sau, put on gloves, and start dancing around & trading attacks with your partner you're no longer practicing Wing Chun...you're doing something else...you're practicing boxing. 

So Wing Chun doesn't spar, because that's what boxers do.

If you want to get good at Wing Chun, do chi sau. Do it at varying levels of intensity. If you & your partner can handle it, do chi sau at a very high, "I better get a mouthguard"-level of intensity. Do that often. 

The other point I'll make is: either you're _fighting_ or you're not. 

When boxers spar, they're not really fighting...it's a _mock-fight_ for practice. The same is true with Jiu Jitsu, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, or whatever. 

Every art has a vehicle for freestyle practice of the art's fighting-strategy and its associated body of techniques. In Boxing, it's Sparring. In Wing Chun, it's Chi Sau.




wkmark said:


> Sparring has it's use as long as both parties know what each one is trying to achieve.  You pad up and hit full force so that you can work on timing, quicker speed and positioning.  However the thing to remember is to not have it end up being an all out brawl fest.  That defeats the purpose of full contact sparring.



You bring up a good point, & I think it relates to my assertion of "either you're fighting or you're not".

Too often, people wind up doing something that's somewhere in between a real fight and controlled "sparring"....they're not _really_ going all-out 100% trying to knock each other out, but neither are they actually practicing Wing Chun (or whatever) strategy...they just wind up uncontrollably buffeting each other. Too often, when Wing Chun people try to "spar" it turns into this mess where they're not really learning about real fighting (because it's not a real fight), nor are they learning about WC (because they're not doing WC)...they're just wasting their time. 

It winds up looking like really $h!11y boxing because they're trying to train like boxers without knowing anything about boxing while at the same time thinking they're doing Wing Chun.


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## El_Nastro (Feb 12, 2011)

*Good:*

Here's some Boxers sparring:





They're practicing boxing fighting-strategy in a freestyle exercise - maintaining range, looking for openings, taking a shot & then backing off, looking for openings, and taking their time. All very deliberate, measured and controlled. 

It's sparring & it's good stuff, but it's not Wing Chun. Wing Chun can't be practiced this way because WC has a different fighting strategy. 


Jiu Jitsu rolling





Same thing here. A couple guys practicing BJJ fighting-strategy in a freestyle exercise that allows them to practice all of their skills. Very deliberate, measured, controlled, and also 100% relevant to the BJJ fighting-strategy. 


Wing Chun Chi Sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPPj_H--vPI&playnext=1&list=PLAF59B94271065386

Again: 2 guys in a freestyle exercise designed to allow both participants to practice all of their skills in a deliberate, controlled, measured way that's relevant to their fighting strategy. 


*Bad:*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyDDPWrPgxU&feature=related

Here we see a couple guys doing something that's clearly not _fighting_, but neither are they practicing Wing Chun strategy...instead of closing the gap, sticking, and feeling for an opening, what they're doing amounts to really lousy boxing.







This one's just a mess. I think that one of the reasons it's soooo bad is because these people never quite figured out that WC is based around a different strategy than boxing...so, they put on gloves & helmets & use a boxing training method ("sparring") to train in WC. Problem is, a training method that's based around a boxing strategy simply doesn't help grow good WC. And _this _ is the result.


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2011)

El_Nastro said:


> This one's just a mess. I think that one of the reasons it's soooo bad is because these people never quite figured out that WC is based around a different strategy than boxing...so, they put on gloves & helmets & use a boxing training method ("sparring") to train in WC. Problem is, a training method that's based around a boxing strategy simply doesn't help grow good WC. And _this _ is the result.



Funny how we all look at things differently.  I liked the last one best, precisely because it was _so messy_. You put a really good WC person against a relatively untrained fighter of mediocre ability and you may see beautiful, "classical" WC technique. On the other hand, take intermediate level students and have them really go at it with contact and it can get very messy. Deeply rooted instincts take over and straight punching can give way to "haymakers",  crude grappling and force against force struggling. Chi-sau is fantastically important, but it's not enough. Hard bouts like this are necessary if you want to work through the "messiness".


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## El_Nastro (Feb 12, 2011)

geezer said:


> Funny how we all look at things differently.  I liked the last one best, precisely because it was _so messy_. You put a really good WC person against a relatively untrained fighter of mediocre ability and you may see beautiful, "classical" WC technique. On the other hand, take intermediate level students and have them really go at it with contact and it can get very messy. Deeply rooted instincts take over and straight punching can give way to "haymakers",  crude grappling and force against force struggling. Chi-sau is fantastically important, but it's not enough. Hard bouts like this are necessary if you want to work through the "messiness".



I entirely agree that real fights are messy. I totally understand & agree with that.

However, I would argue that what those guys were doing was _not_ a real fight. Most obviously they had gloves, helmets, & pads and as intense as they were going at it, you can't say they were _actually fighting_. 

So if they weren't really _fighting_, what exactly were they doing?

Were they practicing solid boxing skills in a freestyle format? No. They sure weren't boxing. Or kickboxing for that matter. 

Were they practicing good groundfighting skills in a freestyle format? No. A good BJJ man would laugh if you told him those guys were doing JJ.

Were they practicing WC? No. There was no sticking, no controlling, no shifting, no _controlled_ punching (in the sparring vid I posted even when those boxers started to raise the intesity their punches were still deliberate, controlled, & measured)....just 2 people charging at each other wildly throwing as many punches as possible in the hopes of simply overpowering & overwhelming their opponent. They weren't practicing WC.

So they weren't really fighting. Nor were they practicing any particular fighting-strategy. The end result is just bad. I'm not the only person who thought they looked like schoolyard kids.

The best way I can think to explain the problem is thus:

*Their "sparring" format didn't match up with the fighting-strategy they were trying to practice.*

By that I mean: these people train & drill in WC principles & methods. Then they're strapped with boxing equipment told to engage in what basically amounts to a kickboxing exercise.

The end result: something that looks like really, really bad MMA.


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2011)

_Nastro_, I get your point, and as you mentioned, you aren't alone in hating that clip. I've seen it trashed before by both sides, the MMA crowd and by WC purists as well. So be it. I still really like the energy those kids in that video have. Yep, sometimes they lose it and start swinging wildly, they go to the ground and grapple like fish out of water... and then it does look like really bad MMA. But if you watch closely you will see a lot of WT tactics in there too. The way they close with a front kick, the head clinch and repeated centerline knee strikes, the _lan-sau_ or _pie jarn_ hacking elbows and the reverse hacking elbow from chum kiu... Really, if you take the average WC student and put him in a full contact bout, even against his own classmates, I don't think most would do as well. The fact is that when faced with power and aggression a lot of students lose it. That's why I think some training like this is useful. Sometimes you have to train against raw aggressive energy, get used to getting hit and having to keep fighting from awkward positions...when you can't seem to stick, flow and control your opponent's bridges.


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## mook jong man (Feb 12, 2011)

I would hazard a guess that the people shown in the last clip  were not very experienced , the basics do not seem to have become physically and mentally embedded 
Under the adrenal surge a couple of them seemed to have reverted back to what looked like previous training , maybe Muay Thai

There were a few very wild kicks thrown there from way out of range , and on closing in they did not seem to know how to counter each others chain punching , except by throwing their own punches which most of the time were not straight or on centre either.

The gloves were only small so you would think that someone would have tried to use a Tan / Bong or throw up a Seung Bong and then Lap Sau to counter the chain punching but they didn't seem to know it which again tells me that they don't look like they have been training too long.

Because of this failure to control the centreline it usually ended in a grapple as one person was able to get an arm up through there and capture the neck and start clinch kneeing which either resulted in the clincher trying to throw very high knees that resulted in the leg being under hooked and then both ended on the ground.

Or the person being clinched would try to escape by trying to throw round punches up to the head , very hard to generate power that way when your posture is compromised by someones body weight hanging off your neck , not too mention it does nothing to counter the knee strikes that are still coming in while your concentrating upstairs.

Again this tells me they were novices , by the way their structures were so easily broken and their heads and necks were pulled down bending their backs , a person training for a while would never have let their back be bent down so easily , they always stay bolt upright and maintain the posture.

But as a suggestion if anyone is ever caught in clinch grip like that and your posture is broken and your head pulled down and the knees are getting ready to come in , for God's sake don't bother trying to punch him in the head.

As you feel your head pulled down , get your arms crossed low , at the wrists as per the first movement of the Sil Lum Tao Form , we call this double Chit Sau.

Turn the outer edge of your hands slightly towards you as you strike down at 45 degrees into the opponents bladder / groin area , this causes the outer palm heels and knife edges of your hands to hit the target in a type of crossed arms double palm strike.

Not only is it a powerful strike but it also shields against any knees coming up as their power is disrupted near the upper thighs.

Immediately after the strike , throw your guard up first as per last movement of Bil Gee and regain posture and then go to work on removing the grip if he is still hanging on , either by wedging your guard up through the centre if there is a gap or by placing both forearms on the outside of his if there is no gap and cutting down with a double Jut Sau.


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## Nabakatsu (Feb 13, 2011)

I'll give that a shot on Wednesday, maybe Monday if I'm lucky. Thanks for the thorough breakdown.


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## mook jong man (Feb 13, 2011)

Nabakatsu said:


> I'll give that a shot on Wednesday, maybe Monday if I'm lucky. Thanks for the thorough breakdown.


 
I assume you are talking to me Nab , I will break down the exercise so you can learn it properly.

Stage 1:
 Get your partner to grab you around the neck with both hands  and try to pull your head down , relax and concentrate on keeping your back straight.
You can take a step forward but do not under any circumstances let your body bend.
NO knees being thrown at this point just concentrate on sinking down and keeping your spine straight as the partner is trying to pull your head down.

Stage 2:
 We practice the full technique from a hands down position , because if someone was  able to get both hands around our neck when our hands were up then we deserve to get kneed in the face.

Anyway , have the partner suddenly grab you around the neck in a clinch and try to pull you into a knee strike.

Resist the force slightly so that he pulls harder , then use his force to increase the power of your strike to his bladder by stepping in and using the edges of both your palms crossed at the wrists , rotate your forearms quickly for maximum power as they cross.

Aim the strike 45 degrees downwards , for safety in training strike a bit higher up at the abdominals.
If you are doing it correctly ,  the partner should end up with some nice red stripes across his gut when he lifts up his shirt.

For developing power , practice the strike  on a kick shield or heavy bag.

In a real situation aim for the bladder because people can build up pretty firm abdominals which can resist striking , but they can't build up significant muscle over the area where the old waterworks are situated.


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## geezer (Feb 13, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I would hazard a guess that the people shown in the last clip  were not very experienced , the basics do not seem to have become physically and mentally embedded
> Under the adrenal surge a couple of them seemed to have reverted back to what looked like previous training , maybe Muay Thai
> 
> There were a few very wild kicks thrown there from way out of range , and on closing in they did not seem to know how to counter each others chain punching , except by throwing their own punches which most of the time were not straight or on centre either...



I'd agree with this.  I remember one time (one of the very few) that I got into a fight after having trained WC for maybe about six months. Everything I'd studied went right out the window. It takes a long time for WC to really sink into that reflexive level of the brain. That's why I think it's a good idea to put on the gear from time to time and see if you can maintain your technique under pressure.


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## mook jong man (Feb 13, 2011)

geezer said:


> I'd agree with this. I remember one time (one of the very few) that I got into a fight after having trained WC for maybe about six months. Everything I'd studied went right out the window. It takes a long time for WC to really sink into that reflexive level of the brain. That's why I think it's a good idea to put on the gear from time to time and see if you can maintain your technique under pressure.


 
It just looked as though in my opinion that they hadn't put in the hours on the floor doing Chi Sau sparring , and when I say Chi Sau sparring I mean both in contact range and just out of contact range guard versus guard.

The latter type is equally important in my opinion and must be given equal training time , so that you get used to controlling someone who is aggressive and throwing volleys of punches at you , and trying to attack your guard and trap you.

Too many people will concentrate on just Chi Sau sparring with the the arms already in contact , while this is a cornerstone of Wing Chun training it means that we are starting off with each others arms already semi controlled.

Where as in hand sparring from the guard our arms  can end up in any configuration in relation to our opponents , and we must partly depend on our eyes to intercept anything coming in until we can move in and control and strike through.

I sort of liken the first type of Chi Sau sparring to wrestlings pummelling drill where the two wrestlers will start in contact trying to achieve the double underhooks.

But they certainly would not reach their full potential if that was all they did , they must also devote a fair amount of time starting from out of range and practice fighting for grips , arm drags and whatnot , whereby they can control the opponents arms and get past that barrier to use their pummelling skills.

This second type of wrestling training could be likened to hand sparring from the guard position , except that in our case we are mostly dealing with strikes that must be redirected and put under control so that we clear a path and strike through.


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## Nabakatsu (Feb 16, 2011)

Hello, I'd like to report my findings, of what I am fairly certain was poorly preformed attempt to put your application into practice.
Let me first explain our clinch defense if I may.
We grab the elbows of our opponent, as their arms are around our neck, trying to pull us down. we keep our elbows in the center pointing down, and we place our elbows into the knee strikes, really hurts to be the one kneeing.. as we detect openings, we will land punches and than quickly regain the grip.. when we detect their balance is compromised, or they are distracted enough.. we will take a big step under them, and strike up through their throat.

In my attempt to implement your application:
I was holding onto the opponents elbows, in a cross handed grip,
(The reason we keep the grip on, is so that they can't release the back of our neck and launch an elbow, which can happen blazingly fast.)
and when he went to launch a knee, I would use the striking motion you described, in my lineage called double gan sau, and I was surprised how well it dissolved the knee thrown at me! but since I had no grip on their elbows, or arms, they were able to strike me the moment I left contact, almost meeting me to the strike.
without the elbow I was very impressed by this strike, and I realize I wasn't able to implement the biu tze movement which perhaps is meant to deal with an elbow attack.

Thanks for your time.


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## chinaboxer (Feb 17, 2011)

IMO sparring drills with fighters outside of wing chun is more important than just just "brawling" with them to see who can knock out the other. and also IMO wing chun is not so much the "offense" but rather the "defense". so whenever i do drills with my boxing friends, i never hit them, but instead "control" them through the touch. this video is an example of what i'm talking about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKzeOE9dlg&feature=player_embedded


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## mook jong man (Feb 17, 2011)

Nabakatsu said:


> Hello, I'd like to report my findings, of what I am fairly certain was poorly preformed attempt to put your application into practice.
> Let me first explain our clinch defense if I may.
> We grab the elbows of our opponent, as their arms are around our neck, trying to pull us down. we keep our elbows in the center pointing down, and we place our elbows into the knee strikes, really hurts to be the one kneeing.. as we detect openings, we will land punches and than quickly regain the grip.. when we detect their balance is compromised, or they are distracted enough.. we will take a big step under them, and strike up through their throat.
> 
> ...


 
The problem with all this stuff Nab , is that in training you can't really hurt the partner , or if you do , not many people will want to train with you anymore.

If you did the strike full power to his bladder there will be no elbow strike from him because he will be on the ground.

It would be a little bit like if someone threw a big round house punch at me and I stepped in deflected his punch and gave him a little fairy tap on the chest instead of hitting him with all my power , and then he responded with an elbow strike from his other arm .

We have to be a bit realistic and believe that my full power strike would have diminished him somewhat and his ability to retaliate with a strike

Make sure your main aim is to strike his bladder as soon as the arms go around your neck and start pulling you down , don't aim to deflect his knees , the structure is only there as a secondary defence , the main defence is to hit and hit hard.

Its a bit of an emergency technique for when you are caught with your arms down , in the early phase of a clinching knee attack.

If it is a rather prolonged affair then you would probably be better off doing what you were doing and keeping his arms immobilised , while you try something else.


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## yak sao (Feb 17, 2011)

there have been times i would demo something in class only to have someone second guess with a "yea, but what about_________" comment 
I then give that person a face mask or body armor or both, have them attack me with their "what if"........that tends to end the discussion


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## Eric_H (Feb 17, 2011)

To say we don't or shouldn't spar in Wing Chun is kind of a silly statement to me.

Combat has stages of engage/disengage, Reading the leverage, moving to gain advantage or neutralize opponent's advantage and then striking.

Sparring from no contact is a great lab to work on engagements.
Drills like chi sao are great to work on reading leverage and neutralizing advantages.

Different coaching tool, different purpose.


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## Nabakatsu (Feb 17, 2011)

Asking questions is good, and keeping gear handy to pummel subordinate students probably isn't such a bad idea either!
I've found holes in several "self defense applications" before, and I've found ways to counter them. Sometimes we've made modifications to them. At the very least it's good to explore things thoroughly so you understand the full mechanics behind them, the guy who questions things, typically walks away with a better understanding than if he had not.
I really like that you keep a face mask and other gear with you, that's a great idea, it's worth a beating to know what will and won't work, and how and why it works.


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## yak sao (Feb 17, 2011)

Nabakatsu said:


> Asking questions is good, and keeping gear handy to pummel subordinate students probably isn't such a bad idea either!
> I've found holes in several "self defense applications" before, and I've found ways to counter them. Sometimes we've made modifications to them. At the very least it's good to explore things thoroughly so you understand the full mechanics behind them, the guy who questions things, typically walks away with a better understanding than if he had not.
> I really like that you keep a face mask and other gear with you, that's a great idea, it's worth a beating to know what will and won't work, and how and why it works.


 


I didn't mean for it to sound like " YOU DARE TO QUESTION THE SI-FU...I WILL NOW BEAT YOU YOU INSOLENT DOG!!"

But it truly is a good way to give students confidence that what they are learning actually is the real deal....in fact, that's kind of a running joke with the group. They will do something and seem surprised that it worked like it was supposed to, and I like to respond with " Huh, what do you know , this stuff actually works"


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