# Would you fight a teammate in the finals?



## Pyrock (Jan 19, 2011)

If you and a teammate (and good friend) must face one onother  in the finals of a local tournament would you fight or would you flip a coin?  

My son is most likely going to face this situation and his head instructor stongly suggested that they flip a coin out of respect for each other and the academy (he's old school) but his friend will most likely want to fight because he's very competitive.  During training, it's a toss up but in a tournament, my son has the edge because he thrives during tournaments while his friend gets nervous.  All else is equal except for age.  The other boy is 1 1/2 years older.  

I ( and the instructors ) am suggesting they flip a coin but I hear that his friend wants to fight.

I was considering moving him up a weight division that's another team mate who is much better but they would flip a coin.  Are there any other options such that he doesn't have to face a teammate?  Another age or weight division? Move up a belt division?

Any thoughts?


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## jthomas1600 (Jan 19, 2011)

Is this a common practice? I heard the Williams sisters were accused of doing this in some of their tennis matches. I don't like the idea myself. I would have a hard time telling my son he had to forfeit based on a coin toss.


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## Pyrock (Jan 19, 2011)

jthomas1600 said:


> Is this a common practice? I heard the Williams sisters were accused of doing this in some of their tennis matches. I don't like the idea myself. I would have a hard time telling my son he had to forfeit based on a coin toss.


 

Yes, this is a common practice even among the black belts at the Mundials (Worlds) or Pan Ams. Some guys end up rolling when they get back to their academy and decide it there in private. I was told that it is a sign of respect for your teammate and academy. BTW, my son's instructor is a HIGH LEVEL black belt and his last name starts with a G and ends with an E. 

At the worlds (or Pan Ams), two of our instructors split the 1st place prize. The one who usually wins in practice got the title and the other got the actual medal. It is common especially in Brazil.  I just want some input on how to go about avoiding the situation for little kids.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 19, 2011)

Personally I think it's a cop out, and an insult to the people who have come from far to see 2 high level fighters fight. I think the reason a coin flip is suggested is to prevent needless injury (after all, the team wins anyway) and to prevent hard feelings and bruised ego between team mates. Especially with kids, they should learn that losing is one of the possible outcomes and that sometimes, the other person is just better, even if it is their friend.


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## Pyrock (Jan 19, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Personally I think it's a cop out, and an insult to the people who have come from far to see 2 high level fighters fight. I think the reason a coin flip is suggested is to prevent needless injury (after all, the team wins anyway) and to prevent hard feelings and bruised ego between team mates. Especially with kids, they should learn that losing is one of the possible outcomes and that sometimes, the other person is just better, even if it is their friend.


 

Good points.  At least I know that my son has no problems losing.  He would actually prefer competing in a higher weight class or higher belt class than to compete against his friend.  At least there's a chance that both of them can go home with 1st place trophies.  I think my son just has a hard time winning if it's at his friend's expense.  He would rather take second place by losing to a heavier kid than to for him to win while his friend lost


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## Tez3 (Jan 19, 2011)

Damn right I'd fight them, and do my best to win, to do anything less is disrespectful.


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## Steve (Jan 19, 2011)

I've flipped for first with a teammate before.  For me, it depends on the teammate and on the level of the competition.  

I don't think that it's a cop out at all.  It's completely up to the individuals involved, and it's very, very common.


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## Tez3 (Jan 19, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I've flipped for first with a teammate before. For me, it depends on the teammate and on the level of the competition.
> 
> I don't think that it's a cop out at all. It's completely up to the individuals involved, and it's very, very common.


 
I'm never common.  I'd fight.


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## Tanaka (Jan 19, 2011)

Is this Brazilian tradition?

I would tell them to respect me by giving me their best, and I will respect them in the same manner by giving them my best.


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## Stac3y (Jan 24, 2011)

Saw this happen with two brothers recently. In the circuit I compete in, you fight, or both of you are disqualified. I don't know why it would be considered more respectful to flip than to fight--seems backwards to me.


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## Steve (Jan 24, 2011)

Stac3y said:


> Saw this happen with two brothers recently. In the circuit I compete in, you fight, or both of you are disqualified. I don't know why it would be considered more respectful to flip than to fight--seems backwards to me.



Different culture, I guess.  The way I look at it, I'm not competing to win a medal.  I'm competing to gauge my progress and analyze my game.  I'm measuring myself against my peers by rolling with guys who don't know my game inside and out.  What's the point of competing against someone with whom I train?  I won't learn anything new, and neither will he. 

I don't see a problem with it either way, but to suggest that it's disrespectful to do either is crossing a line.  Either way, whether you decide to compete or not, the intent is to show respect.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 25, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I don't see a problem with it either way, but to suggest that it's disrespectful to do either is crossing a line.  Either way, whether you decide to compete or not, the intent is to show respect.



Sorry, but I disagree.
You decide to fight when you sign up for the tournament. Otherwise you're just cheating the spectators and the organizers out of their final bout. Entering a tournament means taking the good with the bad. If you can't do that, then don't enter the tournament.

Not fighting deserves a disqualification.
I mean if you don't care about who wins or loses, then you have no business complaining about being disqualified. You didn't care, remember?


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## Steve (Jan 25, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Sorry, but I disagree.
> You decide to fight when you sign up for the tournament. Otherwise you're just cheating the spectators and the organizers out of their final bout. Entering a tournament means taking the good with the bad. If you can't do that, then don't enter the tournament.
> 
> Not fighting deserves a disqualification.
> I mean if you don't care about who wins or loses, then you have no business complaining about being disqualified. You didn't care, remember?


Okay.  Philosophically, I guess we'll have to disagree.   You're certainly entitled to your opinion.  I still believe that whether you decide to compete against a teammate or not, the intent is to demonstrate respect, not disrespect.  

Practically speaking, entering a tournament means nothing more than agreeing to compete according to the rules of the tournament.  It depends on the rules of the tournament and the culture of the specific martial art in question.  Bruno, I don't know what MA you train in, but if you forfeit a match in a tournament, are either of the competitors disqualified?  I've never heard of that.  If that's the rules, well, there you go.  In BJJ/Grappling competitions, neither is disqualified.  The person who forfeits loses that match and the bracket moves forward accordingly.   

In Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, it's not uncommon to see two teammates pick a winner even at the highest levels of competition.  Happened last year at the Mundials (the World Championships) in SoCal.


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## Steve (Jan 25, 2011)

Stac3y said:


> Saw this happen with two brothers recently. In the circuit I compete in, you fight, or both of you are disqualified. I don't know why it would be considered more respectful to flip than to fight--seems backwards to me.



Stac3y, just to clarify in light of Bruno's post.  If you and I square off in the finals against each other and I forfeit the match, why would you be disqualified?  Would I be disqualified if I had to forfeit due to injury?


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 25, 2011)

I don't compete anymore, but most places I know here, the person who decides not to fight is disqualified. So technically you could still flip and have 1 person forfeit, but it means that that person is fully disqualified and does not get second prize.

Look at it from the spectator pov if you want: How would you like it if you paid money for watching a high level tournament, and the best bout of the evening gets cancelled because the contestants decide that they don't want to fight each other, but still get to go home with the certificate / cup / medals / prize money?


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## Steve (Jan 25, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I don't compete anymore, but most places I know here, the person who decides not to fight is disqualified. So technically you could still flip and have 1 person forfeit, but it means that that person is fully disqualified and does not get second prize.
> 
> Look at it from the spectator pov if you want: How would you like it if you paid money for watching a high level tournament, and the best bout of the evening gets cancelled because the contestants decide that they don't want to fight each other, but still get to go home with the certificate / cup / medals / prize money?


I see your point.  I just don't agree.  But you're not saying anything that isn't said within the grappling community, as well.  I don't want to make it sound as though I represent all of BJJ or grappling at large.  I just don't think it's that big a deal.  It's not uncommon, and people just accept it.  It's also completely okay for them to compete.  Either way, it's just not that big a deal.  Nor is it disrespectful.  

Honestly, it's that last claim only that I take issue with.  As I said before, it's entirely respectful.  It's all about respect within the context of the grappling culture.  And in exactly the same way, choosing to compete is all about respect.  Either way, respect is central to the decision.  Not disrespect.  If the culture of your competitive circuit is different, that's great.  It's different.  Not right.  Not wrong.  Just different.


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## Stac3y (Jan 25, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Stac3y, just to clarify in light of Bruno's post. If you and I square off in the finals against each other and I forfeit the match, why would you be disqualified? Would I be disqualified if I had to forfeit due to injury?


 
I'm sorry; if only you refuse to fight, you are dq'ed, and I am the winner (my phrasing was missing something there.) The bracket would continue from there. If, because we are team mates, or siblings, we both say to the judges, "We refuse to fight each other," we would both be disqualified. If you forfeit a fight due to injury or any other reason, you are disqualified from fighting further in that tournament (you couldn't fight again if it's double elimination, for example.) Once you quit, you're out.

So, no; you wouldn't get me dq'ed by refusing to fight me; you'd just get yourself dq'ed. And I wasn't really thinking about brackets, as the OP pertained to the final round in a division. 

I have to say that I disagree somewhat with your assertion that you couldn't learn anything from fighting someone who knows your game--to me, competing against someone like that gives me an opportunity to stretch and try to come up with something to surprise my opponent. Also, you have the benefit of being able to analyze the fight more thoroughly afterward. YMMV, of course.


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## Stac3y (Jan 25, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I don't compete anymore, but most places I know here, the person who decides not to fight is disqualified. So technically you could still flip and have 1 person forfeit, but it means that that person is fully disqualified and does not get second prize.


 
BTW, I should mention that coming to this decision together (rather than one person just saying he wants to drop out of his own volition) is considered the same as "fixing" the fight, and can get you suspended. Perhaps they figure if people will make deals for wins based on personal relationships, they might also make deals based on money. "Hey, dude; I'll give you $20 bucks if you bow out; I need the points." Like that. I'm just guessing that's the reason, though.


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## Ybot (Jan 30, 2011)

Personally I would prefer to compete, but I would abide by my instructors judgement, and wouldn't look down on anyone who chooses to flip a coin to decide.



Stac3y said:


> BTW, I should mention that coming to this decision together (rather than one person just saying he wants to drop out of his own volition) is considered the same as "fixing" the fight, and can get you suspended. Perhaps they figure if people will make deals for wins based on personal relationships, they might also make deals based on money. "Hey, dude; I'll give you $20 bucks if you bow out; I need the points." Like that. I'm just guessing that's the reason, though.


That is an interesting point... and I could definitely see how the practice of "flipping a coin" would be more concretely poor sportsmanship, and unethical if the outcome of a match would make a difference in something grater than the individual division at hand. Thing is that the only thing outside of the division that is effected in Jiu-Jitsu tournaments is team standings at that particular tournament. If teammates make it to the finals against each other, then that is a wash anyway.


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## ETinCYQX (Feb 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Damn right I'd fight them, and do my best to win, to do anything less is disrespectful.


 
Certainly my line of thinking. But I don't attach much ego to my fighting either.


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## kiai (Feb 5, 2011)

I've fought a teammate in the final before (the sensei's kid, actually!) and won 

The way I see it, it is an honour to go head to head with a teammate in the finals.


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Certainly my line of thinking. But I don't attach much ego to my fighting either.


 

Ego shuldn't be there when fighting anyone though should it. I don't think it's a matter of ego, I'd feel cheated if I won through someone deciding to pull out so I could 'win', it would leave me with that 'what if' feeling, I prefer a 50/50 (or less if it's me lol) chance of winning fairly to 100% chance of winning through opponent pulling out for non med reasons.


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## bjjcompete (Mar 7, 2012)

Personally I would prefer to compete instead of flip a coin. Seems disappointing if you don't finish.


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## WC_lun (Mar 7, 2012)

I have fought friends and classmates in tournaments, both local and on the national level.  Some of my most memorable matches are with friends and classmates.  It did nothing but bring us closer together as a group and foster greater respect for one another.


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## seasoned (Mar 8, 2012)

*"Would you fight a teammate in the finals"?
*No, this person would be of no consequence to me until after the match. It may sound harsh but that is the way it is in our dojo sparring. Any sparring, *is,* training in the way I conduct myself in a real confrontation, and I should approach each with no mind clutter......... 

At the end of the match there will be time to celebrate, just not before and during................


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## mmartist (Apr 10, 2012)

There was a situation in one tournament that two of my teammates had to fight each other. It wasn't really a fight, it was more like a training..But basically it all depends on what your coach says..


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