# Varieties of Wing Chun



## J W (Sep 6, 2011)

Hi all. Im brand new to Wing Chun, just started a few weeks ago. I think I have a very basic grasp of Wing Chun principles, but certainly havent gotten to any of the finer points yet. Still trying to wrap my head around Siu Nim Tao and Pak Sao.


Im always interested in the history of the arts, too. If I understand correctly, the majority of modern Wing Chun comes from a handful of Yip Mans students. Of course, different people have different interpretations of what they learn, and Im interested here in how various lines of WC developed.


Im studying Moy Yat Ving Tsun. There is another Wing Chun school nearby that I believe traces back to Yip Chun, and a third school a bit farther away where the Sifu learned from William Cheung. I guess Im curious how their Wing Chun differs from ours as far as concepts, technique, style, etc. I assume the main concepts will be the same (all Wing Chun will be based on the centerline, correct?), but I expect there are some differences in how they train and how they fight.


Im not trying to start a which-one-is-better type of thread, Im just interested in what different ideas are out there. As I said, Im studying Moy Yat Ving Tsun, however I just started so Im not even sure what defines that particular style. So if anyone could shed some light on what makes these different lines of WC unique (or any other line you happen to study, Im not interested in just those three), it would be appreciated.


(Alternately, if there are any good books that cover this topic, Id appreciate recommendations).


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## Domino (Sep 7, 2011)

Welcome to the forums !!
I believe there are over 300 families of wing chun, all vary in different ways, also Ip Chun is still alive.
http://home.vtmuseum.org/

Leung Ting did something called 'Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun' which you may find interesting.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 7, 2011)

Both of Ip Mans sons are still teaching

Ip Man > Ip Chun
Ip Man > Ip Ching

Ip Chun and Ip Ching and I have been told they do not teachexactly the same but the concepts and the name and number of forms are the same

I have seen differnce in some basic training exercises between what comes form Ip Ching and what comes from either Augustine Fong or Fak Tak Ling. I am not sure which one the differnce comes from since the sifu that is teachnig was a student of both

Ip Man > Ho Lam Ming > Fong Chi Ling
Ip Man > Leung Sheung > Fak Tak Ling

So I guess I am getting at that it appears that even within the Ip Man Lineage you will find differences, even one generation out


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## cwk (Sep 7, 2011)

I practice ban chung cho gar wing chun (opera wing chun of the cho family).
It's a mainland style that traces back to the red boats through Yik Kam. There are quite a lot of differences from the Yip Man based lineages as far as I can see. The main one being that instead of having the standard three hand forms, we have one long one encompassing the movements, concepts, etc of said forms. Also our training starts with a seperate footwork form called ng lun ma and 13 separate hand techniques- "sup sam sao".
here's a link to the website-

http://www.banchungchogawingchun.com/index.htm


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 7, 2011)

Hey there, CWK, on that website of your lineage, I Saw some of the videos, at 29 seconds of the applications video, I saw something that resembles a kau sau from my lineage, I was wondering if you have a name for it, and if any other lineages have a similar movement?
I've never seen that outside of WT! Thanks for your time!


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## Eric_H (Sep 7, 2011)

Hello JW,

I began in Moy Yat WC, I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun with it 

There are a number of lines of Wing Chun, many of them today stemming from the mainland and hong kong students of GM Yip Man. There is much bickering between and inside of the group of who got the "real deal", but the truth is that they're all much more similar than different. 

William Cheung claims he was taught the Leung Bik style of Wing Chun from Yip Man, whereas the rest learned primarily the Chun Wa Shun style. FWIW, as more has come out about Leung Bik, I believe him. Many do not, and that is their choice.

Chan Wa Shun's wing chun has many more forms and such to it, the main non-yip man line from GM Chan being that of Chan Yiu Min. They do some things different to most of what is see in the YM lines, but it is not unrecognizable. 

Leung Jan (Yip Man's grandteacher, Chan Wa Shun' Sifu and Leung Bik's Dad) also created Gu Lo Wing Chun when he retired to Gu Lo village. 

Outside of the Leung Jan line, there is Pao Lo Fien Wing Chun, (I don't know much about that style) and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun (of which I am an instructor).

The best book I've read on the various families and their breakdown are:
Robert Chu's Complete Wing Chun
Richard Loewenhagen's Mastering Kung Fu 

In the spirit of full disclosure I was once Richard's student, so I may be biased on that one.


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## cwk (Sep 8, 2011)

Nabakatsu said:


> Hey there, CWK, on that website of your lineage, I Saw some of the videos, at 29 seconds of the applications video, I saw something that resembles a kau sau from my lineage, I was wondering if you have a name for it, and if any other lineages have a similar movement?
> I've never seen that outside of WT! Thanks for your time!



Hi Nab,
we call it dan sau, I don't know about other lineages but it's one of our fundamental techniques.


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 9, 2011)

if someone was on the inside of your arm, and attacking up and towards that same shoulder area, would you preform a dan sau? or would you be doing a chum sau?
Thanks for your reply!


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## cwk (Sep 9, 2011)

Can you be more specific? Do you mean inside of the arm as in angle or do you mean inside my arm as in the range? Are we talking about the same type of attack as in the clip, or a different one?
Just want to have a clear idea as to what we're discussing so I can answer properly.


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## WC_lun (Sep 9, 2011)

Eric, I've never met Mr. Lowenhagen, but I agree that Mastering Kung Fu is a pretty darn good book in regards to Wing Chun.  So there is an unbiased opinion


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 10, 2011)

Hey there cwk, yeah, I meant for example:
you get punched, and the attacker's arm has made contact with the inside of your arm,  and his energy is angling against your arm, up towards that same arms shoulder area, not quite how it was done in the video, but the same deformation none the less.
hopefully that makes a little more sense


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## cwk (Sep 10, 2011)

you could use either dan or jum. Personally I prefer dan, as the spinning energy gives more options for changing angles and it hurts like a ***** if you connect properly with their lower bicep/ joint of the arm.


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## Nabakatsu (Sep 10, 2011)

Interesting, the we preform it, is always with a turn, we will fairly often first be in fook sau, as they come in, we turn off, making the line of attack open, so they can go flying past us, and than we will be striking them. I've never thought of using it in a manner where one would hurt the bicep.. the chum sau in this situation seems a little muscley to me, if someone much stronger than me did that, a chum sau would knock my *** my back out of balance.


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## J W (Sep 10, 2011)

Thanks all for the knowledge and book recommendations. I'll have to check some of them out, looks like there is some good Wing Chun info and history there.



> So I guess I am getting at that it appears that even within the Ip Man Lineage you will find differences, even one generation out



Yes, I've noticed that. The Yip Chun school I mentioned is actually on the floor below mine in the same building, and as I walk past it to get to the Moy Yat school I can see several obvious superficial differences. They wear colored belts where we have no rank system, they seem to have structured classes whereas we don't (just show up and train when you can). I'm sure there are differences beyond that, in the way they train and in the style of their Wing Chun, even though both schools are only a couple generations removed from Ip Man. 



> I practice ban chung cho gar wing chun (opera wing chun of the cho family).
> It's a mainland style that traces back to the red boats through Yik Kam. There are quite a lot of differences from the Yip Man based lineages as far as I can see. The main one being that instead of having the standard three hand forms, we have one long one encompassing the movements, concepts, etc of said forms.



I was under the impression that the majority of Wing Chun (in the Western world, at least) were Yip Man lines. Are other (non-Yip Man) styles of WC fairly common?



> There is much bickering between and inside of the group of who got the "real deal", but the truth is that they're all much more similar than different.



I've always found the bickering and arguing that goes on in the Martial Arts to be rather ridiculous. I heard and read alot of it in Kenpo when I was studying that. Our style is better than your style, our school is better than your school, and now Ip Man taught our Sifu a better version of Wing Chun than he taught your Sifu. I guess there's no getting away from it.


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## geezer (Sep 10, 2011)

J W said:


> I've always found the bickering and arguing that goes on in the Martial Arts to be rather ridiculous. I heard and read alot of it in Kenpo when I was studying that. Our style is better than your style, our school is better than your school, and now Ip Man taught our Sifu a better version of Wing Chun than he taught your Sifu. I guess there's no getting away from it.



Hey, JW, if you really want to get your fill of petty bickering, check out the _Kung-fu Magazine Forum. _It's about all they do! Or you could continue to hang out with us and share ideas, agreeing and disagreeing respectfully. I've learned a lot here.

As far as getting along and learning from _others... _I had an especially good day today. From 7:30 - 9:30am I taught my own little group in the park. We're part of the NVTO (we split away from WT a few years back). At 10:00 I met with Joy's group (yes Joy from this forum) and watched a class. He's a senior instructor under Augustine Fong and has a lifetime of WC experience. At 11:30 I made it to my DTE Eskrima Class, taught by Guro Jeff LaTorre. DTE is a Filipino based art that has a lot of Western boxing and Chinese boxing influences... including WC. Finally from 1:00 - 2:00pm I did a bit of chi-sau, etc. with Jake (from this forum) who has been training Hung Fa Yi WC with Eric. Jake is solid. HFY seems to really emphasize rooting. To me, _it's all cool stuff_. I just wish I was talented enough to take it all in... but as it is I have my hands full with my VT and Eskrima. Still, thanks in part to this forum, I've made some great connections in the martial arts.


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## Vajramusti (Sep 11, 2011)

geezer said:


> Hey, JW, if you really want to get your fill of petty bickering, check out the _Kung-fu Magazine Forum. _It's about all they do! Or you could continue to hang out with us and share ideas, agreeing and disagreeing respectfully. I've learned a lot here.
> 
> As far as getting along and learning from _others... _I had an especially good day today. From 7:30 - 9:30am I taught my own little group in the park. We're part of the NVTO (we split away from WT a few years back). At 10:00 I met with Joy's group (yes Joy from this forum) and watched a class. He's a senior instructor under Augustine Fong and has a lifetime of WC experience. At 11:30 I made it to my DTE Eskrima Class, taught by Guro Jeff LaTorre. DTE is a Filipino based art that has a lot of Western boxing and Chinese boxing influences... including WC. Finally from 1:00 - 2:00pm I did a bit of chi-sau, etc. with Jake (from this forum) who has been training Hung Fa Yi WC with Eric. Jake is solid. HFY seems to really emphasize rooting. To me, _it's all cool stuff_. I just wish I was talented enough to take it all in... but as it is I have my hands full with my VT and Eskrima. Still, thanks in part to this forum, I've made some great connections in the martial arts.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi "Geezer"-that was a busy day that you had on Saturday. It was good to see you per the invitation to come by during class time.On JW's comment on the bickering- ofcourse there is bickering. I have no illusions about the existence of a wing chun or martial arts community. With so many different arts and lineages within arts differences in points of view, communications and personalities are indeed part of the chemistry. Several forums show extreme examples of ego and dissonance.We are fortunate on this forum to have a sensible amount of moderation.On some other forums-the "noise" made by some frequent posters prevents reasonable discussions of similarities and differences in what we do.
With good wishes, joy chaudhuri


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## Christos (Dec 17, 2011)

Hello people, I m just wondering whether anyone has heard of Delta Wing Chun and the lineage of Sifu Lakis Philippou (Filippou) please comment your opinion on Delta wing chun. Thank you!  
Please help me out here because I am quite new in Wing Chun!!!


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## MacPedro (Dec 17, 2011)

Hi all/J.W.,
           no ones mentioned Yuen Kay San, WSLVT, Emin Boztepe, Karn Kernsprecht, ... but truth be told it seems there are as many version of WC as there are people who practice it. The word successfully should probably be on the end there. Or are there are only the principles?

I've never studied it and only picked this up from Rennie Richie's book about Yuen Kay San but a difference looked to be that the Lan Sau was also used as a hanging parry. Like a Bong Sau but off the centre line to the outside. I would welcome clarification on this. I've not seen this done elsewhere but it is bound to be in dozens of systems.

Miko VT I'd never heard of this before seeing a Gary Lam youtube. 

Keep on Trucking,
                       MP


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## Vajramusti (Dec 17, 2011)

hi Folks- I dont do YKS, or Gary Lam's version either but I respect both versions. Lan sao like many good motions in wing chun "lan sao" has multiple uses.
i can and do demonstrate lan sao for redirecting a punch or a body , stopping being kneed, breaking elbows, attacking the throat, for some close quarters elbow,
enablinga punch with the other hand, or the same hand and many other beuts. The key is stability and mobility-ygkym and chum kiu

joy chaudhuri


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 21, 2011)

Try not to base your decision on lineage. There are some great 'independent' masters out there who have trained under various instructors and formed their own styles. Schools that show off their lineage are usually not that confident with their own skill. And before people start flaming - there is a marked difference between mentioning a lineage and showing it off. 

Certainly, people like William Cheung has received a lot of flak over the years for boasting that he was taught the 'true' wing chun system, which is nonsense. Wing chun is constantly evolving and changing in accordance to the other martial art systems that have evolved. There is no 'correct' version of wing chun. Just what works and what doesnt. So my advice is to go down and have a look at the school and their training, as opposed to focusing on lineage and tradition etc.


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## Eric_H (Dec 21, 2011)

KamonGuy2 said:


> Try not to base your decision on lineage. There are some great 'independent' masters out there who have trained under various instructors and formed their own styles. Schools that show off their lineage are usually not that confident with their own skill. And before people start flaming - there is a marked difference between mentioning a lineage and showing it off.
> 
> Certainly, people like William Cheung has received a lot of flak over the years for boasting that he was taught the 'true' wing chun system, which is nonsense. Wing chun is constantly evolving and changing in accordance to the other martial art systems that have evolved. There is no 'correct' version of wing chun. Just what works and what doesnt. So my advice is to go down and have a look at the school and their training, as opposed to focusing on lineage and tradition etc.



By the same token, a lot of independent "masters" out there who trained under various instructors have a pretty shaky background when you look into it. The dagger cuts both ways on this one.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> By the same token, a lot of independent "masters" out there who trained under various instructors have a pretty shaky background when you look into it. The dagger cuts both ways on this one.



You could say the same thing about some guys claiming a lineage too.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 22, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> By the same token, a lot of independent "masters" out there who trained under various instructors have a pretty shaky background when you look into it. The dagger cuts both ways on this one.



Not quite in the same context. Im talking about certain famous (or infamous) masters who claim they were taught the original version of Ip Man wing chun (which doesnt actually exist, as Ip Man used wing chun that fitted that particular pupil). The proof is often in the pudding, and seeing someone like Boztepe putting a stop to that nonsense was quite satisfying. I just wish people had learned from those mistakes

My master has learned from numerous wing chun guys in the past, and while he respects Ip Chun etc, he would never claim to be 'Ip Chun Wing Chun' as that is profiting from someone elses hard work. He is proud to be a lifetime member of the Ip Man family, but out of respect, has formed his own style. 

I know that recently, this very issue cropped up with Gary Lam and the WSL 'quick fix' (numerous WSL schools were cropping up, saying that they had the true WSL system etc). Gary Lam came out with some great statements about how those guys should be using their own names and not relying on a great man who passed away some time ago to sell their art


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