# Stop crying for teachers



## Phoenix44 (Aug 1, 2004)

I absolutely HAVE to say something about teachers or I'm going to explode, and I'll take the risk of being flamed.

Let's take, without argument, the crappiest place in the country to teach: New York City.  The median teachers' salary is $47,345. (From NYC.gov)  Teachers work 180 days/per year.  They work 8:30 am - 3 pm.  They get an hour for lunch.  That means they're working 5.5 hours per day--not a bad work day.  (BTW, they also get 2 "prep" periods, where they're not actually teaching, and where they may leave the building--and I know for a FACT that they do--but I'm going to assume they're actually "prepping")

That means their base pay is: $47.82/hr. Not bad.  BUT, they also get:

Family health insurance
Family dental
Family eyeglasses
Family prescription drug benefit
Pension plan (they can retire in their 50s)
Sick time
Vacation time
Paid time for jury duty
Personal time
Periodic sabbaticals on partial pay
Summers off
Legal holidays off
School holidays
Their pay checks and benefits are annualized, so they're covered over the summers.   They can always be home when their kids are off, so babysitting costs are minimal.   *AND---THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT---their benefits continue into their retirement!!!* 

Now, let's figure this out:  If teachers worked a 7 hour day AND they worked year round 5 days a week, and if they got 2 weeks UNPAID vacation, and if they got UNPAID legal holidays off (so let's figure they worked 48 weeks) JUST LIKE THE REST OF US, their base salary would be $80,337.  DO YOU MAKE $80K??? Because that ain't bad.  Do YOU get to retire at 55, with full benefits, and pension?  Do you get the best benefits in the universe?  Do YOU get sabbaticals?  Because I don't.

If they need to earn more money, they can tutor (and they do) for $75/hr, at their convenience.  Or coach, and make overtime. Or be a camp counselor in the summer, so their kids go free.  And if they work in the burbs, and not in NYC, they can earn a median $75,000/yr--that's a base pay of $75/hr, or a potential nice 6-figure annual income if they worked the regular working stiff's hours--and I'm not even talking about those who work SIX days/week. Plus bennies.

Yes they have an important job--so does the sanitation worker.  Yes, there's stress on their job--but most of us can handle 5.5 hours of stress for half a year.  Yes they take work home with them...so does everyone else.  Teachers' unions have done a great spin job making teachers seem poor and beleaguered.

So please PLEASE stop crying for the teachers.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 1, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> That means they're working 5.5 hours per day--not a bad work day. (BTW, they also get 2 "prep" periods, where they're not actually teaching, and where they may leave the building--and I know for a FACT that they do--but I'm going to assume they're actually "prepping")


umm...  5.5 hours a day huh?

Ok, a few of the lazy crappy teachers maybe.

But there is a lot of prep work that goes into teaching.  How about intermurals, lunch supervision, after school clubs?

And do you have any idea how hard it is to handle 25 young kids for that long?

Yes, some teachers are overpaid, and really shouldn't be teaching.  But a good teacher is worth far more then anything they can be paid.

I'm the first to agree that our educational system is a mess, and that a lot of the teachers out there have no business teaching.  But if you want good teachers you got to pay for them, or they will go and make more doing something else.


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 1, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> umm... 5.5 hours a day huh?
> Ok, a few of the lazy crappy teachers maybe.


Not so. I'm talking about "the time they are required to be at their place of employment." Laziness or crappiness has nothing to do with it.




> How about intermurals, lunch supervision, after school clubs?


They get paid overtime for clubs and teams. And in NYC teachers do not supervise lunch--school aides do that. OMG the teachers' union would go ballistic! As for "prep" time, as I said, we ALL take work home with us. The difference is that teachers also get paid prep time...their two prep periods are part of the 5.5 hours. 



> And do you have any idea how hard it is to handle 25 young kids for that long?


As a matter of fact, yes. Many of us are martial arts instructors. We just don't get paid $45/hr.


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## Lisa (Aug 1, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> They get paid overtime for clubs and teams. And in NYC teachers do not supervise lunch--school aides do that. OMG the teachers' union would go ballistic! As for "prep" time, as I said, we ALL take work home with us. The difference is that teachers also get paid prep time...their two prep periods are part of the 5.5 hours.


I guess things are different in NYC then they are in Canada.  No teacher here get paid overtime for extracirricular activities, but it is EXPECTED that they participate in it.  They are also expected to supervise the play ground on a rotating basis during lunch and on recess time.  They only get one prep time per day here.  I have known teachers that are teaching multiple grades and multiple languages and still getting paid the same as some teachers teaching one grade and one language.  A good friend of mine had close to 60 report cards to prepare due to a multiage, multilanguage program she taught and she only made $40K per year (Cdn).


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## Andrew Green (Aug 1, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> As a matter of fact, yes. Many of us are martial arts instructors. We just don't get paid $45/hr.


So am I, and I can tell you that it is completely different to teach a group of kids a hobby that they want to do for an hour at a time then to have a group of kids that would rather be somewhere else for a whole day.

Thats like comparing running a marathon to running a block and a half to the bus stop...


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 1, 2004)

You left out a few things....
Teachers are often reqired to supply their own classroom supplies.
That means paper, pens, pencils, craft materials, etc.
My girlfriends grandmother was a Buffalo teacher for years...they gave her squat for an annual budget to stock her classroom each year for the kids. (She taught kindergarden and 1st I believe)

You may want to read these too : 
http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cityscape/2002/teacher.asp
http://www.mail-archive.com/wwnews@wwpublish.com/msg00391.html


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## Tgace (Aug 1, 2004)

Just some ??'s

Cost of living in NYC vs. income?

Take home work like paper correction, grading, class planning etc. and the wage breakdown with that factored in.

Consistency of your wage model with the various teachers unions nationwide.


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 1, 2004)

Listen folks, don't miss my point.  I'm not saying teachers don't have an important job, or that they don't deserve a decent salary.  In fact, where I live, we pay teachers even more than in NYC, and consequently, our taxes are VERY high.  But we pass the school budget EVERY year.

However, by comparison to everyone else:

The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job.
The nurse or doctor works WAY more hours, with more immediate consequences.
The firefighter has a more dangerous job.

Yes, public school teachers absolutely do deserve a decent salary.  My point is, they GET a decent salary, and better benefits and job security than just about anyone else.  So give them credit for their important work...but stop the whining.


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## Tgace (Aug 1, 2004)

Around here, I think most of the whining is about school budgets and expired contracts rather than how much money they make. 

OTOH look at how much sports figures make for playing ball or actors make for reading other peoples writing. While we pay our soldiers dirt wages.


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## bdparsons (Aug 1, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job.



You've GOT to be kidding me! But I do agree with you, stop the whining, beginning with yourself.

If you're so upset about it, give it a try. BTW, I'm not a teacher.

Bill Parsons


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## RCastillo (Aug 1, 2004)

Time for a new lesson, sit down  and take a few notes. Texas Education 101

*We rank 30th in the nation, pay wise.

* We cannot collect Social Security, just our pension,  but Congressman can, and then some, AND their pensions, it's astronomical! I wish we could vote ourselves pay raises like they do.

* We have NO collective bargianing here with our Unions. We're considered "servants of the State. (Yeah, right)

*Many of us work summers, and work extra jobs durring the year.(I do on both counts, and get screwed for it by Uncle Sam)

*Here, if you're accused of a crime, you're considered guilty first, gotta prove it if you're innocent.(Not this boy. I use the law on them like they'd use it on me) Ya gotta play hardball, and I'd rather not


*We get raked over the coals when it comes to Health Ins.

*Some of our legislators, and the Gov. are clueless when it comes to education.

*Parents/students at times have the upper hand because they wanna sue, and think they got ya spooked. (Unless you're a radical like me, I don't scare easy. This old man has gotten smart)

This state is desperate for teachers now, so all you gotta have is a degree now, and get in the easy way. We had to eat crap along the way.

In summation, if you're successful in some sort of way, THANK A TEACHER, because even one, somewhere along the line, made a difference for you in life. (No , I didn't create the system either)


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 1, 2004)

bdparsons said:
			
		

> If you're so upset about it, give it a try.


Perhaps I already have. Or perhaps half my family is made up of teachers. Or maybe I work in the schools in another capacity.

In fact, my father is a retired NYC school teacher. He's been retired on a pension and full benefits for 25 years. God bless him. Most of the rest of us won't be able to retire well, if at all.




> You've GOT to be kidding me! But I do agree with you, stop the whining, beginning with yourself.


Thanks so much, bdparsons, for your civil attitude toward me. I may disagree with people, but I don't make it personal. I simply quoted the facts, and I'm honestly surprised that so many people think that an annualized, full-time salary upwards of $80K, plus fantastic benefits, is so paltry. Guess the teachers' unions have done their job.


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## michaeledward (Aug 1, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> ...
> The median teachers' salary is $47,345. (From NYC.gov) ,
> ...
> their base salary would be $80,337.


I'm confused. Which is it? 

I am thinking that if I talk to some New York City Educators, they are going to tell me their base salary is no where near 80 grand a year.

Maybe you should have some more conversations with your father. Did he teach math?


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## Cruentus (Aug 1, 2004)

2 things...

#1. Don't say retarded, unresearched things like "because of teachers salaries, our taxes our high." It just makes you sound uninformed.

#2. Instead of b**tching about the wage that someone else with an important job has, we should be talking about other things like improving the living wage accross the board, or even (gasp) making health care and retirement a priority in this country. I think it is ironic to argue over teachers salaries when no-talent a$$clowns can do things like run large companies, rake in millions hand over fist at our expense, or even get elected for president, all because of who there parents are and how well elitists can fix the competition for their buddies.

I think first things first, and if one is fustrated over teacher salaries, then I feel that one is fusterated over the wrong things.

My 2 cents...

carry on


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 1, 2004)

Folks...keep it polite please. 

I've talked to some teachers...some get a nice paycheck.  Some don't.

I'm not certain, but I think the starting pay is in the $20k-$30k range here.  Not a bad paycheck, but when you factor in buying your own supplies, taking work home with you (to prepare lesson plans, grade papers, etc), 3 months without pay (It's often lumped during the school year and not paid in the 'off' season), it can be rough.

Some parts of the country, theres a demand and teachers can get top dollar.
In others...it's a buyers market and pay and bennis are low.


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## don bohrer (Aug 1, 2004)

Knowing at least a dozen teachers, and my best friend being one I strongly disagree with you Phoenix44. 


Don (El Paso)


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 1, 2004)

_The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job._

Please insert a common expletive referring to kaki doodie here.  Have you ever spent any time in a room full of seventh graders?  This is somewhat akin to herding cats, with an added mission statement of trying to make them literate.

That has to be the most mindless comment I've seen on this forum in a month.

_Yes, public school teachers absolutely do deserve a decent salary.  My point is, they GET a decent salary, and better benefits and job security than just about anyone else.  So give them credit for their important work...but stop the whining._

Since when is American education monolithic?  Do you assume that the salary and hours you list apply to all teachers across fifty states?  You'll recall that I posted that teachers without collective bargaining make 63% LESS than teachers that do.

Are you prepared to tell me how many hours my wife and sisters work outside the classroom doing prep work and grading?  How many extra-curricular events were they expected to attend, unpaid?  Do they make $47.82 an hour?  How about their benefits?  How much did my wife spend of her own money on classroom supplies last year?  How many books has she purchased for promising students?  How many of the VCR's in her classroom belong to her?  How much did she spend on her state mandated Master's degree?  

Visit an inner city school in Indianapolis or Gary.  After getting screened to make sure you don't have a gun or knife, walk into the classrooms and tell the teachers there they make too much money and that working with the blossoming felons of our fair state is less stressful than flipping burgers.

RCastillo...my sister and husband teach in Texas.  Thanks for the info.  My other sister and brother in law teach in Idaho.  They're ranked 31st, just behind Texas.  Indiana is ranked 17th and we're still below the national average.  Note folks that if the seventeenth ranked state is below average, we have a fairly large disparity of salaries for teachers in this country.

_*US Teacher Salaries*_

*http://resource.educationamerica.net/salaries.html*


Regards,

Steve


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## loki09789 (Aug 1, 2004)

Also consider that teaching is a licensed profession and that you are required to have a degree, maintain continuous 'in service' and pursue graduate degrees in order to keep that license.

Rember too that relative to other licensed professions with similar educational/internship/inservice requirements teachers make roughly 30% less than their professional counterparts from other professions.  

That correlates, at least to me, to that 30% of the year that teachers have 'off' - even though I am going to be in my class room retooling/reorganizing it for the next year on my "off" time.... there is no 'off time' as far as I am concerned.  I will be pouring over material, writing lessons/units for the next years schedule - which might be a totally different schedule from the year before at times, so I have to plan from scratch or collaborate with my peers to figure out what to do.

There is only different phases/times devoted to prepare, execute, reflect or recharge....am I to be criticized or ridiculed for that?  I didn't complain when my father got a paid 2 week shut down (AND still got paid vacation time to boot) at Christmas and 4th of July, or paid 13.00 or WAY more for what he called "monkey work" at a Ford stamping plant.  

I didn't roll my eyes or throw my hands up because I "just had to say something" about how he was considered "skilled trade" when all he did was roll huge die molds into place with a crane and tighten a few bolts and getting paid upward of 20 an hours for that while I was working there part time for far less (oh yeah 12.35 starting) than him and working a lot harder during my shift than he had to work.

An interesting model called Frameworks breaks teaching down into four major categories or domains:

1. Planning and preparation
2.Classroom
3.Instruction
4.Professional responsibilities: (reflecting on teaching, records, interaction with families/faculty/administration/community, GROWING PROFESSIONALLY, contributing to the school district - peer/student advisement, curriculum, PTA contributions....)

I would say that your work hour break down only really recognizes #2 and #3 of the four domains and doesn't recognize the significance that preparation hours can have or the importance that out of classroom hours devoted to improving yourself as a person/professional and the community you teach in can be - including calls to parents from home phones, evening paper grading, summer curriculum development projects,sports coaching, group advisor duties.... some do this for no extra pay.  If it is paid usually it is a flat per diem/percentage of your base pay - REGARDLESS OF HOW LONG IT TAKES.

Are teachers over paid?  I don't know if a blanket/bigotted judgement can be made by only looking at NYC wage means is a fair assessment of "all teachers."  

I would say there is a societal problem of who is over paid/overcompensated when civil servants - whether doctors at county hospitals, LEO, EMS, teachers, road maintenance..... have to catch flak for the wages they/we earn by the tax payers who "pay our wages" for valuable and quality of life sustaining services 

YET 

these very same people will gladly pay near to $100.00 per month for internet/cable access purely for entertainment, season ticket prices purely for enternainment, and millions of dollars at restaurant food that they could prepare at home just as well if not better if they took the time to do it (and I do most/all the cooking in my house so no male bashing please) with no or little thought about what they are getting in return for their investment.

If money is the measure of what people value in this country:  Entertainment and food win out over all else.


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 2, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I'm confused. Which is it?
> 
> I am thinking that if I talk to some New York City Educators, they are going to tell me their base salary is no where near 80 grand a year.
> 
> Maybe you should have some more conversations with your father. Did he teach math?


OK, let me repeat what I said. Teachers earn a base salary of $47K for working *5.5 hours per day 180 days per year *in their workplace. If they earned the same hourly rate, but worked *7 hours/day, 5 days/week, for 48 weeks,* as most full time workers do, *that would be equivalent to a base salary of >$80K*--a very nice full time salary--plus benefits. Most workers earn more money when they work more hours. 

By the way, this is my last post to this thread. I quoted facts and figures, and gave my opinion about those facts and figures, which some of you disagree with, as you have every right to--that's what makes for lively discussion. However, I never made personal cracks directed at individuals, as some of you think is appropriate to direct at me. I don't appreciate it, especially since you people don't even know me. It lowers the level of discourse; makes the originator of the personal comments look small and foolish; and based on the moderators' comments, it is not the intent of this board.


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## michaeledward (Aug 2, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> OK, let me repeat what I said. Teachers earn a base salary of $47K for working *5.5 hours per day 180 days per year *in their workplace. If they earned the same hourly rate, but worked *7 hours/day, 5 days/week, for 48 weeks,* as most full time workers do, *that would be equivalent to a base salary of >$80K*--a very nice full time salary--plus benefits. Most workers earn more money when they work more hours.


However, teachers don't work 7 hours a day, 5 days a week for 48 weeks a year. That is not the way the job is scheduled. To blame the teacher for the design of the system is to confuse two seperate arguments. 

While "Most workers earn more money when they work more hours", most workers don't get to choose how many hours they work. For instance, workers at FedEx depots, and UPS depots, have to sort packages for three to four hours a night. Keeping these employees working for an additional 4 hours, because most workes work 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, is a foolish idea, don't you think? 

If you want to rail against the 180 day school year, Great! It is an outdated idea that, if continued, will cause the United States to fall further and further behind other developed countries in what has been our strongest attribute; education. But that arguement is distinct from the compensation discussion.

Teachers are paid 47 grand a year (median income in NY according to your post) for working for the school year. It is not an hourly wage.

Mike


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## loki09789 (Aug 2, 2004)

What was the orginial intent of the poster with this threads starting post?  

You started it out with "I just gotta say this" type of language as if you needed to vent about something.  I would say that you may have posted facts and figures in an attempt to justify your stance, but in doing so ignored other relevant information that might put a different perspective the issue because you wanted to defend your view.  Simply put you were looking for an argument (Whether that means discourse or a verbal scrap I don't know) and you got one.  Deal with it.

I, personally would like to see how you respond to some the other 'facts and figures' that people have put forth.  Hitting and running is just as much a reflection on the poster as personal attacks...or is that a bigotted attack on an entire professional strata?

I, personally don't give a hang about your facts and figures because they are like kicks and punches - tools to put up a good attack.  Only this is a verbal attack/argument and not a physical one.  What I do care about is what is your motive/message/theme that you are putting forth and using facts to support?  Other people seem to have a different perspective - supported with facts/figures and, I would say a different theme/message/motive.

Your response to these other perspectives would be a nice thing to see:

Run, resist or acknowledge and counterpoint..... all reveal something.


			
				Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> OK, let me repeat what I said. Teachers earn a base salary of $47K for working *5.5 hours per day 180 days per year *in their workplace. If they earned the same hourly rate, but worked *7 hours/day, 5 days/week, for 48 weeks,* as most full time workers do, *that would be equivalent to a base salary of >$80K*--a very nice full time salary--plus benefits. Most workers earn more money when they work more hours.
> 
> By the way, this is my last post to this thread. I quoted facts and figures, and gave my opinion about those facts and figures, which some of you disagree with, as you have every right to--that's what makes for lively discussion. However, I never made personal cracks directed at individuals, as some of you think is appropriate to direct at me. I don't appreciate it, especially since you people don't even know me. It lowers the level of discourse; makes the originator of the personal comments look small and foolish; and based on the moderators' comments, it is not the intent of this board.


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## Nightingale (Aug 2, 2004)

Most teachers here in California are on a year round schedule.  They couldn't have a second job in their off time if they wanted it, because they get two weeks here and there.  My salary as a teacher here was $23,000 a year.  I took home about $1400 a month, after taxes.  I spent close to $1000 on classroom supplies and TEXTBOOKS.  My classroom had no books. Since I wanted my students to actually learn something, I had to purchase materials for them to learn from.

My rent was $910 a month, for a small one bedroom apartment in the next county, because I coundn't afford to live in the same county I was teaching in.  I had a 60 mile round trip each day to work, and with gasoline at $2.00 a gallon, that added up to at least $150 a month. 

My health benefits were AWFUL.  I had to pay $100 or so out of my paycheck each month for coverage, plus, since my insurance didn't cover a medication that I need for a chronic stomach problem, I had to pay for that out of my pocket, which was close to $200.00 a month.  

Those basic expenses added up to $1360.00.  My take-home pay was $1400.  that leaves me $40.00 for utilities, food, and other necessities.

The state required that I pay out of my own pocket to take supplementary classes to stay current.  I had to take out student loans for these.

I quit teaching because I couldn't afford to stay.


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## OULobo (Aug 2, 2004)

Around here there are no teachers at lunch or recess. That is an aide duty. The teachers for intermurals get overtime and the coaches get a separate salary. The teachers get a stipend for supplies and they are allowed to leave for off periods. The do usually get a union negotiated decent wage, and all the vacation and benefits that come with a decent job. 

Now the bad part. They get salary cuts or lay offs on a whim. They have horribly overcrowded classes, they are dealing with increasingly violent children with little protective services. They are required to get a four year degree with student teaching to obtain a license, despite the constistantly top 10 lowest paid 4 yr degree mandatory jobs in almost all areas of the state. 

The thing that makes me think they are a little underappreciated is that, in general they don't get that great a salary or benefits for a four year degree mandatory job.


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## CB2379 (Aug 2, 2004)

Ok, I am a teacher and I take great offense to what you have said here. Why are you so concerned about how much money a teacher makes anyway? A professional baseball player makes $10,000,000 a year yet the coach that trained him in junior high and high school makes $50,000. 

You have said that teachers have all this time off, well let me just say this. When school is in session I work from 6:45 in the morning up until 11:00 at night. Sure I have time to eat, take karate even see my friends occassionally, but everything else is school work. During the weekends, I work, during vacations, I work, during the summer....I work. 

Also, how dare you try and make it seem like all we do is teach. We do a lot more that that. Teaching is not a job my friend, it is a life choice. There are many who enter teaching who are simply not cut out to be teachers, but there are also those, like me, who consider this much more than a job. There are weeks that go by in the school year that I forget it is even payday and my check has to be mailed to me. 

What we give our children is much more than just a "book" education that really has no price value on it. Why don't we look at how much Larry Tatum gets for one of his seminars -- not to insult Mr. Tatum or anything -- but all he is doing is "teaching". Why is no one up in arms over his salary?

The mere fact that you have the nerve to put up our salary and insurance information is an insult to me and every teacher who read this post. I am sorry that you had a bad experience in school when you went through, but to triviliaze my life based on dollars and cents insults what I do and what every other teacher does. 

_"The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job."_
You must be insane..... I don't know even where to begin with this quote. This statement right here has nullified your argument and everything else you have said. You are clearly thinking irrationally. I won't even get into the sleepness nights I have had worrying about my students passing a test, or staying up until 4:00am planning a lesson that my principal will see to determine if I come back next year. Or even waiting by your computer to receieve an email that one of your students is OK have having some very serious surgery. no of course....flipping burgers is much more stressful. Honestly dude, you really have to think before you speak here....


I don't have to defend my job, my students and what they accomplish later in life will be my defense. Because somehow, I affected that child and inspired them to do something positive in their lives. I have been lucky enough to have been told this by dozens of students I have worked with and I have only been teaching for 3 years now. 

But go ahead, put a price tag on how much it is an hour to inspire and touch a life and make a positive change....

Chuck


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## OULobo (Aug 2, 2004)

CB2379 said:
			
		

> Ok, I am a teacher and I take great offense to what you have said here. Why are you so concerned about how much money a teacher makes anyway? A professional baseball player makes $10,000,000 a year yet the coach that trained him in junior high and high school makes $50,000.
> 
> You have said that teachers have all this time off, well let me just say this. When school is in session I work from 6:45 in the morning up until 11:00 at night. Sure I have time to eat, take karate even see my friends occassionally, but everything else is school work. During the weekends, I work, during vacations, I work, during the summer....I work.
> 
> ...



You might want to identify who you are railing at. I appreciate your feelings and concerns, and I would understand why the tone of this thread would upset you, but consequently many people believe strongly in their jobs, not just teachers and a teacher's salary and benefits are often public domain in that in many areas they are considered public employees.


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## Flatlander (Aug 2, 2004)

Just to add to that...let's bear in mind that this thread evidently will affect some on a personal level.  Let's try to keep it as non personal as possible.


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 2, 2004)

Ooooh, yes, yet another group of uppity, overpaid--and quite possibly liberal, if not worse--group that we can talk about ignorantly, and blame all the problems of America upon. Absolutely. I agree.

I am a professional teacher. I teach college. Let me sketch out my last twenty-five years for you. I started college in 1977, and graduated in 1979--during which time I lived on between 220 and 250 dollars a month. But through a combo of grants, loans and work study, I got by fine. Oh yes--had no health care, had no car, had no insurance. Worked about 80-90 hour weeks, happy as a clam. Fair enough. 

Took a year off-respiratory tech at Children's Hospital, Denver--then went to grad school. Was very lucky; got into excellent school, got money from 'em, worked 90-110 hour weeks (no, not exaggerating: for openers, reading load was 3000+ pages/week); worked cataloging books, summers, or was off studying at my own expense. Lived on between 333/month and 667/month, no  insurance, health care, car, paid all that out of pocket. Started teaching, 1981, did that till I got my doctorate.

Out of grad school--first job offer was--maybe--17, 500 year, to teach four classes, run grad program. Taught in Ohio instead, made 27,000/year. Paid for health insurance. Almost no retirement package. Spent summers, vacations, etc. , writing/researching. Had to moveback to East following year, only one-year  job, taught for three years at 26,000/year, much the same conditions. Job ended after 3 years--taught at upstate NY university for 1 year, 24 K/year...

Moved to so  Cal. Taught PT for nine years, four different schools, drove about 500-1000 miles/week, paid from 33-52 hour, no health care, etc., grossed maybe...oh...30 K/year. 

Finally got FT job; presently make good salary, benefits, no complaints there. My one-way commute is 165 miles, and I drive that twice a week. past spring, taught six classes, served on four committees, plus meetings, plus health insurance consortium rep, plus union negotiation rep. 

So after a decade of colleges, a PhD, twenty years' teaching, I make a little over 60 K per year and have good benefits. Ooooh, end of world. I'm lucky; if I were  in Arizona or Colorado, I'd make around 30-35/year, worse benefits. 

I resent this kind of ignorant crap--and that is exactly what it is. 

It's not only ignorant because it shows an utter lack of understanding of reality, it's ignorant because it shows that you're not asking the right questions: a) why am I treated so badly that I'm jealous and angry about somebody else getting a half-decent deal? b) why do I blame teachers, when the Trumps and Murdochs and Bushes of the world are grossly overrewarded for their absurd actions? c) why do I have such a hard time with the notion that people who work deserve a decent life--not infinite riches, but decent? d) why  have I bought the guff and propaganda that's been shoved at me by the likes of Michael Savage?

Feel free to take this personally. I've about had it with the kind of intellectually lazy attacks on perfectly decent people, their character, their professions, their ideas, their patriotism, their morality, that passes around these days, followed by  quick claims of, "But I don't mean anything personal!!" My *** you don't. 

What's worse is the utter lack of knowledge, or thought, or--worst of all--introspection and observation that such posts reveal. 

It shows up a lot in the martial arts. One of the things those oft-despised kata are for is to teach us to look honestly at ourselves at at the world. Too many, "martial artists," avoid this, and fall into dishonesty. 

And that's what's happened here. Get a grip; learn about the world, learn who you really are. It ain't easy, but it shure am ediccational.


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 2, 2004)

Well...

Ive never been a teacher... so I wont say anything about that... 

But I have been a Burger flipper, amongst many other "Customer Service" Jobs...

And if you guys dont consider 3-4 people per shift SCREAMING at you for somthing that you had no contoll over, with a follow up "discussion" about why the 3-4 customers screamed at YOU from your supervisor as a stressfull situation, your freakin nuts. 

If there is one thing I have learned, it's that Customers all feel "entitiled" and if they dont get what they want, when they want it, regardless of how assinie it is... and that poor burger flipper who is getting railed on cannot send the customer to the principles office for acting up.

ANY customer service job is a STRESSFUL Job. Food for thought.


----------



## pete (Aug 2, 2004)

could this be brad hamilton?  employee of the month at all american burger?
.. sorry, just had a flash back to fast times at ridgemont high (one of the top ten movies of all time)... didn't he become a teacher?

aloha,
mr hand...


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## MisterMike (Aug 2, 2004)

My wife will be working towards her Masters to become a teacher. One of the overlooked pre-req's to becoming an underpaid teacher. Maybe some day she can aspire to teach high school for a whopping 28-32K. Bottom line is you have to love that kind of job to do it and we're pissin off the few remaining who really do.

I went to school for engineering. Got out, found nothin' so I made BALL BEARINGS for a year and a half on 3rd shift for $11/hr. Found an engineering aide job for $10/hour, 50 miles each way but it was in my field so I jumped for it. Enjoyed the software I was using to help pave paradise so I decided to give the techie route a try. Was extatic to get 24k a year. Company got sold, new one said we were underpaid and bumped us up to 35k. The thing is, I did esentially nuthing but "play grown up video games" as I like to call it from 9-5 and come home and forget the day while my wife was trying to pick which school she'd like to work at from 7am to 10pm correcting papers for less pay.

Teachers are underpaid.

And yes, for those who know me here, she's on the other end of my political spectrum. Who says opposites don't attract  Someone's gotta keep me in check.


----------



## michaeledward (Aug 2, 2004)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> And yes, for those who know me here, she's on the other end of my political spectrum. Who says opposites don't attract  Someone's gotta keep me in check.


Your wife is a damn fine woman, and I have always said so.

:cheers:

Mike


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Aug 2, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Just to add to that...let's bear in mind that this thread evidently will affect some on a personal level.




You got that right.  

MisterMike wrote:  

_Teachers are underpaid.

And yes, for those who know me here, she's on the other end of my political spectrum. Who says opposites don't attract  Someone's gotta keep my in check._


THANK YOU, Mister Mike.  I never thought we'd find anything to which we'd agree, but this may be it.

My compliments to your wife.  Sounds like you two got a James Carville/Mary Matelin thing going...with the roles reversed, of course.


Regards,

Steve


----------



## PeachMonkey (Aug 2, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> ANY customer service job is a STRESSFUL Job. Food for thought.


 Customer service jobs are *definitely* stressful.  But, when your shift ends, and you finally get out of there, you don't have to spend a minute thinking about your job.  I've worked fast food as a cook and dishwasher, bussed tables, waited tables... lots of jobs.  I'm the type to stress somewhat about interpersonal issues on the job, but beyond that, I didn't give my work a second thought outside of the workplace.

 Teachers, however, clearly have a *much* higher level of emotional investment.  To claim otherwise (and I know you weren't, Technopunk, but others in this thread have) is simply ignorant.


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Aug 2, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Customer service jobs are *definitely* stressful.  But, when your shift ends, and you finally get out of there, you don't have to spend a minute thinking about your job.  I've worked fast food as a cook and dishwasher, bussed tables, waited tables... lots of jobs.  I'm the type to stress somewhat about interpersonal issues on the job, but beyond that, I didn't give my work a second thought outside of the workplace.
> 
> Teachers, however, clearly have a *much* higher level of emotional investment.  To claim otherwise (and I know you weren't, Technopunk, but others in this thread have) is simply ignorant.



Good point, Peachmonkey.  Welcome back.

My wife worked customer service.  So did I.  Got screamed at, too...both of us.  She took great umbrage to your suggestion that flipping burgers was more stressful.

As a burger flipper, how many funerals did you go to when your customers died, Technopunk?   I've lost count of the number of funerals my wife has attended...all for those kids of hers that have died over the years.  Car wrecks, drug overdoses, cystic fibrosis...

I find it hard to believe that kids like these don't live "rent free" in her heart and mind.



Regards,

Steve


----------



## loki09789 (Aug 2, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Teachers, however, clearly have a *much* higher level of emotional investment. To claim otherwise (and I know you weren't, Technopunk, but others in this thread have) is simply ignorant.


Amen to that.  I know that many people take a lot of personal pride in their job performance and their work 'reputation' and they should, a solid work ethic is a good thing to have.  My wife works very hard at her job doing something that I just don't understand with lab procedures and such, but I can at least recognize the pride and desire to do a good job if I can't recognize all the jargon - but I know that she feels the same way about my 'teacher talk.'

Relatively speaking (and maybe a little campy too) though, my father never came home from work talking about "his door panels" or "his dyesets"  I have rarely, if ever, heard anyone talk about that "one perfect burger" that just made their day.  

I have heard teachers talk about "their kids" to the point of driving those around them crazy because it leaves a reaction much like when new parents talk about "their baby."  Teaching is a different kind of job that is as much about making positive personal connections/impressions as it is about teaching any content area.

The simplest message I got from my teacher training was to "Leave the world better than you found it."  I would hope that everyone strives for that, but I don't know too many jobs that include that idea in the job description/goals.


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 2, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> but consequently many people believe strongly in their jobs, not just teachers and a teacher's salary and benefits are often public domain in that in many areas they are considered public employees.


First let me say I think you are you are right that teacher's are not the only ones who value their work, and to me anyone who takes pride in what they do and works hard and with passion is deserving. It's just interesting to me that for some reason teachers' salaries/benefits seem to be more subject to this type of debate. I am a certified teacher in NY and I have to say that rarely have I heard this argument concerning any other profession or seem such scrutiny over the salaries/benefits of other public servants. It's even evidenced here by the fact that the salaries are printed for all to see. In one of the districts I taught in during school budget voting time teachers/administrators salaries were printed on flyers that were put on people's front lawns. I personally have never seen this done to any one else in the public sector. Ask yourself how this would make you feel? I often wonder if it's because most people have children and possibly grandchildren or at least have been to school themselves and have an emotional link to teachers that they do not have to other public servants. 

When children fail in school teachers are held accountable, regardless of parental involvement in a child's overall development. There are lots of misconceptions I think. Most of which have been addressed here, and many of which I would have hesitated to argue as a brand new teacher. When I first started out if I found myself in a social setting with new people, especially if they had school aged children, I swear I would hesitate to say that I was a teacher. It seems that almost _everyone_ you meet has at least one complaint about a teacher their child has had _not doing their job_ or _being way overpaid_ or _having so many vacations etc.,_. ironically to me, rarely did you hear that in some way the parents' shared the responsibility. Sometimes it personally didn't seem worth the confrontations. I worked so hard at my profession and found it exhausting to have to then explain/defend it all to parents, especially to those whose children I'd never taught. 

The fact of the matter is teachers like anyone are human beings and some are much better than others. However, in my own experience there have only been a few teachers who did not do their job well, or who rested on their laurels or perhaps should have considered retirement a bit sooner. Most teachers that I know though, and have worked alongside of, are passionate, caring people who are certainly not in it for the money! My plumber, who will never have to pay back a college loan, and who believe me I value, drives a beautiful BMW. I'm quite sure I will never own one of those. The thing is he, like anyone else, has a right to earn a good living why shouldn't a teacher be afforded that same right? 

I think the scrutiny reflects a sign of the times we live in as well. I've noticed that when people are getting laid off from their jobs and their 401Ks are dwindling that that seems to be the time these issues arise most or become magnified. Unfortunately our taxes go up every year and in NY anyway federal aid to school districts has been dramatically cut over the years. That has to be made up for somewhere. You just can't blame teachers for hard times or taxes. We don't make the laws or drive the economy - we are also subject to hard times and lay offs and must also pay our taxes as well. 

There just are so many things that are misunderstood concerning teachers and the work that they do. My first job was in a private school and paid me less than $14,000 a year. It was the best job I've ever had! I loved the children, I worked there for four years, and had 24 children in my care and probably spent almost $500 that year on supplies for the classroom. I worked very hard there cleaning and preparing. Most days I would put in three to six extra hours in my preparation, and often would get up in the middle of the night to act on an idea for the next day. It was about opening young minds and touching lives. The school was forced to close because they could not afford to stay open. The cost of living in NY is very high, and I could not afford much of anything on that salary, but I would have stayed if the doors were open. When I got my first public school job, aside from being put through a very stressful selection process just to get the job, I accepted less than the offered salary. Teaching is a noble profession, and speaking for myself financial gain is not the targeted reward!:asian:


----------



## Flatlander (Aug 2, 2004)

Besides being a student, I have never had a lot to do with teachers, so the bulk of emotion in this thread is outside of my realm of experience.  Yet, I have 2 things to say.

I could never be a teacher.  I have neither the patience, nor the patience to invest myself into that kind of work.

Whoever has the good fortune of being a teacher to my daughter will have the honor of holding my very close counsel, and my utmost respect.  We shall become partners toward a common goal wherein I must trust their judgement, and mind their reccommendations.

I shall.:asian:


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Aug 2, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Besides being a student, I have never had a lot to do with teachers, so the bulk of emotion in this thread is outside of my realm of experience.  Yet, I have 2 things to say.
> 
> I could never be a teacher.  I have neither the patience, nor the patience to invest myself into that kind of work.
> 
> ...




My wife would love to have more parents out there with that attitude...what teacher wouldn't?


Regards,


Steve


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## Sarah (Aug 2, 2004)

I dont think teaching is a career you would enter into if you wonted to get rich, if that is a teachers driving force then they are probably not paying attention to the kids and is in the wrong place.

Of course that is not to say they shouldnt be paid well, but they do know what they are getting into when they choose to do it.

I take my hat off the teachers, nurses, firemen, policemen etc etc because they choose to put other before themselves.


----------



## loki09789 (Aug 2, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Besides being a student, I have never had a lot to do with teachers, so the bulk of emotion in this thread is outside of my realm of experience. Yet, I have 2 things to say.
> 
> I could never be a teacher. I have neither the patience, nor the patience to invest myself into that kind of work.
> 
> ...


Teachers, to a certain legal/philosophical degree, are "parents" to all their students because legally they are considered "In locus Parenti" or legal guardians while students are in the building or on school grounds so your "partners" reference is nice to see.


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 2, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Besides being a student, I have never had a lot to do with teachers, so the bulk of emotion in this thread is outside of my realm of experience. Yet, I have 2 things to say.
> 
> I could never be a teacher. I have neither the patience, nor the patience to invest myself into that kind of work.
> 
> ...


Dan two things back at ya...you'd make a fine teacher, and your daughter is lucky!:asian:

Sarah...hats off to you too  ...

Steve your wife sounds like a great lady! :asian:


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 3, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> First let me say I think you are you are right that teacher's are not the only ones who value their work, and to me anyone who takes pride in what they do and works hard and with passion is deserving. It's just interesting to me that for some reason teachers' salaries/benefits seem to be more subject to this type of debate. I am a certified teacher in NY and I have to say that rarely have I heard this argument concerning any other profession or seem such scrutiny over the salaries/benefits of other public servants. It's even evidenced here by the fact that the salaries are printed for all to see. In one of the districts I taught in during school budget voting time teachers/administrators salaries were printed on flyers that were put on people's front lawns. I personally have never seen this done to any one else in the public sector. Ask yourself how this would make you feel? I often wonder if it's because most people have children and possibly grandchildren or at least have been to school themselves and have an emotional link to teachers that they do not have to other public servants.
> 
> When children fail in school teachers are held accountable, regardless of parental involvement in a child's overall development. There are lots of misconceptions I think. Most of which have been addressed here, and many of which I would have hesitated to argue as a brand new teacher. When I first started out if I found myself in a social setting with new people, especially if they had school aged children, I swear I would hesitate to say that I was a teacher. It seems that almost _everyone_ you meet has at least one complaint about a teacher their child has had _not doing their job_ or _being way overpaid_ or _having so many vacations etc.,_. ironically to me, rarely did you hear that in some way the parents' shared the responsibility. Sometimes it personally didn't seem worth the confrontations. I worked so hard at my profession and found it exhausting to have to then explain/defend it all to parents, especially to those whose children I'd never taught.
> 
> ...


 What she said.


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 3, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> What she said.


 :wavey: :lol:   :cheers:


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 3, 2004)

To  Chuck, lokio9789,  and all other teachers, and spouses who are teachers, here in this forum :asian: :cheers:


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## MisterMike (Aug 3, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> You got that right.
> 
> MisterMike wrote:
> 
> ...




LOL..Imagine that!! Of course I'd like to see more private schools pop up. 

Oh, and a beer for you and Mr. Edwards too  :cheers:


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## shesulsa (Aug 3, 2004)

Teaching is a lot like motherhood, janitoring, housekeeping, customer service, repair service, selling, nursing, waitressing/serving, hosting, flight-attending, coaching, landscaping, plumbing, construction, caring for children/elderly/handicapped, etcetera.

 They are all very thankless jobs.   We expect only the top notch performance from all with extra performance on the side with inadequate compensation.  And when we get the bill, we scream and rant and rave.

 In case y'all didn't know, most of the money in a school's budget goes to salary funding - and administrators make a ton of money.  Does anyone  here know how much the superintendant of schools in your district makes?  I'm pretty sure that ours is the highest paid in the state of Washington.  And his decisions are disappointing.

 The teachers in our district arrive at least an hour before school starts, stay later and take work home to complete.  There are far more demands today on teacher who also must include special needs kids in their classrooms.  The lack of respect for teachers is spreading to our youth and this is degenerating the education system of today.

 Just my .02.


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## pete (Aug 4, 2004)

wow, learned a lot from this thread... like:

how teachers suddenly have cornered the market on job-related stress, responsibility, and direct impact on people
how even with tenured positions making dismissal for poor performance virtually impossible, there is concern of layoffs
how teachers are unique in obtaining a costly education, starting out with a low paying job, and working up the ladder
how nobody else has to continually retrain, retool, and readjust to changes in best practices, technology, and shifting paradigms
how lack of respect applies only to those in academia
how paid time off for professional development and emotional recharging should not considered time off
how easy it is to hand over the administrators as the villans, just like lawyers and insurance co's
how no other professionals are expected to work overtime, weekends, take work home, change personal plans, and so on...
how public information, like salaries, are thought to be of nobody's business unless its athletes or movie stars (which are incidentally at least partly responsible for rising costs of cable television)
how people whose jobs are being routinely moved overseas can't experience the same level of stress

now, i don't begrudge anyone from earning a living... everybody's gotta eat. 
and i do appreciate what most teachers have done for my kids

but, fact is that many teachers have never worked in the private sector, going from student to teacher, and those that have are typically grateful for the benefits associated with their new career.  a good gig if you can get it.

so i guess i can agree with phoenix44 statement "stop crying for teachers", but i don't think teachers are crying for themselves either...

pete


----------



## don bohrer (Aug 4, 2004)

Teaching is a mixed bag for sure. I don't every recall my teacher friends complaining about salary. I did hear many complaints about the willingness of the administration to back the kids and parents over the teachers. The TASP was also another major concern. Most felt TASP along with lack of support from the administration tied their hands and made teaching incredibly difficult.

Don (El Paso)


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 4, 2004)

*wow, learned a lot from this thread... like:

how teachers suddenly have cornered the market on job-related stress, responsibility, and direct impact on people*

Who said they cornered those markets?  Nobody.

*how even with tenured positions making dismissal for poor performance virtually impossible, there is concern of layoffs*

Not one of the five living teachers in my family have tenure, nor can get it.  My wife has been layed off before...and not because of poor performance.  

*how teachers are unique in obtaining a costly education, starting out with a low paying job, and working up the ladder*

Nobody claimed that, either.

*how nobody else has to continually retrain, retool, and readjust to changes in best practices, technology, and shifting paradigms*

Nobody claimed that, either.

*how lack of respect applies only to those in academia*

Nobody claimed that, either.

I'll snip the next part.  Its just more of the same bunk.

Pete, you need some serious adjustment to your reasoning skills.  You drew silly little generalizations from various topics in the thread, and your arguments-posed as "lessons"- are full of syllogistic errors.   

Nowhere did anybody say, for example, that teachers cornered the job market on stress.  That was _your_  conclusion, one you know to be incorrect and one you know WE find incorrect.  You inserted your own premises and drew your own conclusions.  Your comments were snippy and snide.

You didn't learn anything from the thread.  And you certainly didn't discern how deeply insulting a post like yours could be to the teachers and spouses of teachers here at martial talk.

Regards,


Steve


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## pete (Aug 4, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Pete, you need some serious adjustment to your reasoning skills.  You drew silly little generalizations from various topics in the thread, and your arguments-posed as "lessons"- are full of syllogistic errors.



sorry you couldn't look at it more objectively... didn't mean to strike a nerve.



			
				hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> You didn't learn anything from the thread.  And you certainly didn't discern how deeply insulting a post like yours could be to the teachers and spouses of teachers here at martial talk.



it shouldn't be taken as insulting to anyone, just put into perspective.  teachers are far from alone in the unpleasantries brough upon working people in our current economy.  it would be insulting to non-teachers to think otherwise.


----------



## loki09789 (Aug 4, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> sorry you couldn't look at it more objectively... didn't mean to strike a nerve.
> 
> 
> 
> it shouldn't be taken as insulting to anyone, just put into perspective. teachers are far from alone in the unpleasantries brough upon working people in our current economy. it would be insulting to non-teachers to think otherwise.


The starting thread was about teachers, the responses were about teachers.  There has not been a single thread that deviated the topic into a 'teachers have it worse than any one else' idea.  There have even been some mentions of acknowledgement that there are other jobs that are meaningful and stressful as well.

Putting thread in perspective is not needed because 'relative comparison' was never the goal or purpose of the discussion.

THere are many 'non teachers' who have posted here on either side of the topic.  I think perspective is there.

Now if you want to start a thread that makes a relative comparison of teaching and other professions based on a criteria list then go for it.


----------



## mj-hi-yah (Aug 5, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> _how even with tenured positions making dismissal for poor performance virtually impossible, there is concern of layoffs_




This is just another example of the many misconceptions about teachers. Tenure does not guarantee a teacher a job. If enrollment is low and there are not enough children to teach, or school budgets are not passed, causing larger class size, tenured teachers will, and do lose their jobs. Like all professions, the state of the economy influences the employment of teachers.


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Aug 5, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> sorry you couldn't look at it more objectively... didn't mean to strike a nerve.
> 
> 
> 
> it shouldn't be taken as insulting to anyone, just put into perspective.  teachers are far from alone in the unpleasantries brough upon working people in our current economy.  it would be insulting to non-teachers to think otherwise.




Pete,

I think people are well aware that teachers aren't at the bottom of the barrel as far as unpleasant jobs go.  I seriously doubt that anybody would argue that.  If you want to post a thread on America's cruddiest jobs, that might be an interesting topic.  Teachers might not rank anywhere on that list.  I wouldn't suggest they ought to...but I _would _ suggest, given the importance of their job...that their salaries and benefits should be higher so as to attract more talent to the field.  

The Jobs Rated Almanac rates being a teacher as being lower than that of being a teacher's aid, a maid, or a janitor.  Men typically don't enter the field because its perceived they can't support a family on the money offered.  Texas has such low pay that their turnover rate for teachers is ridiculous:

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/new...To.Attract.Retain.Texas.Teachers-694017.shtml

-----

If I showed your post to my wife, her mother, my sisters and brothers-in-law, (and I can, if you like), they'd take serious offense.  It raises my hackles because I see and hear what my wife deals with as a middle school teacher.  You bet you struck a nerve.

Again, I re-emphasize, whatever experiences you and others might have with teachers in New York, remember that elsewhere it is different.  


Regards,


Steve


----------



## OULobo (Aug 5, 2004)

I unserstand and to some extent agree with Pete on most of this, so please allow me to snipe the one I don't agree with. 



			
				pete said:
			
		

> how even with tenured positions making dismissal for poor performance virtually impossible, there is concern of layoffs
> 
> how teachers are unique in obtaining a costly education, starting out with a low paying job, and working up the ladder
> 
> how easy it is to hand over the administrators as the villans, just like lawyers and insurance co's



As mj-hi-yah stated tenure doesn't gaurentee(sp) a teacher from a lay off and tenure isn't offered for all teaching positions. 

Teachers start at the lowest paying of college degree jobs and their pay is increased at scale that is lower than most other jobs that require a degree. They also have an unusual amount of competition for a higher level aministration job and precious few of those jobs to compete for. Essentially it's a shorter ladder with very small rungs and a huge crowd trying to climb the same one.

Administrators do half the work for twice the pay. Essentially, they are coasting on past accomplishments. I won't comment on lawers and insurance companies, as I am not fond of either.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Aug 5, 2004)

I love the whole, "You're a moron, and essentially dishonest!!....but I didn't mean anything OFFENSIVE!!! line of argument."

The reasons teachers are attacked include:

1. A general right-wing and fundamentalist Christian attack upon educators, and the nature of education, which comes out of a dislike for secular society in the modern era.

2. A general dismay at the fact that Things Cost Money, especially in the case of professions like teaching, which used to be subsidized by the grossly underpaid work of large numbers of women.

3. A general refusal to recognize the fact that teachers are still paid on the cheap, because this would mean looking at the real sources of waste and expense in our society.

4. A general misplaced anger about teachers receiving benefits, retirement packages, etc., often because of unions, while the rational response would be to demand these things for other professions too.

5. A general dislike of the way that one of the more educated and intelligent sections of our society tends to ask inconvenient questions. In other words, a general fear and hatred directed towards intellectuals.

6. A general sense that education is indeed a major ideological battleground.

7. A general refusal to face up to the contradictions between capitalism and the principles of real education, often handled by all these silly demands for "more efficiency." Education also tends to lead people to recognize that life is not all about grubbing money and buying crap--not a convenient recognition.

8. A general sense that, "they--" for which read, "minorities," and "working people--" might get some book-learnin' and start rocking the boat.

9. A jealousy about being educated, enacted often by people  who themselves got screwed, and cannot face that reality.


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Aug 5, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> 5. A general dislike of the way that one of the more educated and intelligent sections of our society tends to ask inconvenient questions. In other words, a general fear and hatred directed towards intellectuals.
> 
> 9. A jealousy about being educated, enacted often by people  who themselves got screwed, and cannot face that reality.




I've seen this in the college town I live in.  People who never took their education past high school often resent those who have earned degrees.  This can cause a lot of tension between teachers and parents.

On the other hand, I've seen PhD's get arrogant and snotty with teachers due to the latter's degree in Education.  It seems no teacher is worthy of their gifted little gem.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## rmcrobertson (Aug 5, 2004)

Oh, I forgot:

10. A culturally-acquired tendency to define any and all disagreement/analysis as, "arrogant and snotty."

11. A quite-correct class resentment, based upon the fact that in the end, the, "intelligentsia," is supported by the labor of workers. Regrettably, this resentiment usually does not reach the level of analysis.


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Aug 5, 2004)

> 10. A culturally-acquired tendency to define any and all disagreement/analysis as, "arrogant and snotty."


This is true, although it makes me sad when I see a PhD or PhD student pull out their credentials/inner snottiness to make a student or someone else outside of academia (i.e. a waiter) feel crappy.  I haven't seen it very often, but when I have, I've been embarrassed.  No need to feed into a stereotype, and it's rude.  

That is vastly different from the actual intellectual arguments which usually are not snotty, although they can get personal.


----------



## kenpo tiger (Aug 6, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> I absolutely HAVE to say something about teachers or I'm going to explode, and I'll take the risk of being flamed.
> 
> Let's take, without argument, the crappiest place in the country to teach: New York City. The median teachers' salary is $47,345. (From NYC.gov) Teachers work 180 days/per year. They work 8:30 am - 3 pm. They get an hour for lunch. That means they're working 5.5 hours per day--not a bad work day. (BTW, they also get 2 "prep" periods, where they're not actually teaching, and where they may leave the building--and I know for a FACT that they do--but I'm going to assume they're actually "prepping")
> 
> ...


Phoenix,
I'm sure you've been 'flamed' elsewhere in this thread, which I haven't read as yet, but I feel compelled to respond.  Firstly, I have no idea of where you live, but obviously not in NYC.  You omitted the important fact that NO ONE WANTS TO TEACH IN THE NYC PUBLIC SCHOOLS. (not shouting - emphasis added.)  Why?  There's no 'combat pay' -- and I'm not joking when I say that.  There are metal detectors in practically every public school in the city - with good reason.  Teachers often are busier breaking up fights, both in the classroom and hallways between periods, than teaching.  They are parent, psychiatrist, and who knows what else to these kids, who may have only one parent at home, working two to three jobs to make ends meet.  Their REGULAR hours are probably as you stated.  What about those who are there at 7 am to meet with parents or to give kids extra help (no $75 per hour for that) - and who stay late for the same reasons?  I could go on, but really.  I enjoy your posts most of the time, but I think you're a bit off-base here.  Now to read what everyone else has said.  KT


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 6, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Oh, I forgot:
> 
> 10. A culturally-acquired tendency to define any and all disagreement/analysis as, "arrogant and snotty."
> 
> 11. A quite-correct class resentment, based upon the fact that in the end, the, "intelligentsia," is supported by the labor of workers. Regrettably, this resentiment usually does not reach the level of analysis.




Where did I say that ALL disagreements I observed were "arrogant and snotty?"  I've also seen academics treat teachers with respect.  You were referring to my post, were you not?

Regards,


Steve


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 6, 2004)

It had no more to do with your post than yours did with anything I've written.

However--and despite the many excellent people I've met with degrees in education--I stand behind my basic claim that one of the basic problems with contemporary education is the proliferation of education departments. 

Far too often--not always or even close, but far too often--education departments offer fourth-rate ideas and pseudo-science. Worse, they make it possible for people to become teachers and administrators without really knowing a subject. And worsest, they all too often--not always, or even close, but too often contribute far too much to the ongoing commodification of education and knowledge.


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 6, 2004)

*It had no more to do with your post than yours did with anything I've written.*

Sorry.  I misunderstood then.  I saw you use the words "snotty and arrogant" from my post and thought you were directing that specifically to me.

*Far too often--not always or even close, but far too often--education departments offer fourth-rate ideas and pseudo-science. Worse, they make it possible for people to become teachers and administrators without really knowing a subject. * 

You have a point.

My wife would agree with you, and she has a Master's in Education.  She took the classes after teaching for a dozen years.  Some of her professors had never taught in the public schools.  They were long on theory, short on experience.  Linda pointed out to me that much of what they taught was invalid in a class room setting.  

One of my son's high school teachers taught Education classes for five years before actually getting into the public schools.  She was totally unprepared her first year in the trenches.  She didn't relate to the kids well, didn't know the subject she taught (seemed to think the Civil War started in 1812...my son corrected her), and was extremely disorganized.  A very sweet woman, aside from all that.


Regards,

Steve


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## MartialArtist68 (Aug 6, 2004)

So many teachers are thrust out into the classroom (to teach) with poor training. My father, who is a professor at Indiana University, has heard the phrase "pay your fee, get your B" to describe the education at IU in some departments (he has also been told "publish or perish", but that's a separate matter), especially teaching. I don't mean to discredit IU students and alumni with degrees, by the way.

Cheers,
pk


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## Nightingale (Aug 9, 2004)

a good education program can really help a teacher.  The program I went through at Loyola Marymount was excellent.  There were classes on classroom management, methods, cultural awareness, everything, and, aside from two or three on history and educational theory, most of them were hands on, practical, and very useful.  

The school even sent out a professor to observe my teaching and give me suggestions for an entire school year.  He came out four times a semester. 

The many of my professors were classroom teachers during the day, or if they were full time professors, they'd all taught kids at one point or another.  every single one of them had practical, classroom experience, and knew exactly what we, as new teachers were going through.  I felt that my program at LMU did an awesome job of preparing me for life in the classroom.

However, many new teachers don't have the same preparation and experience that I did (*cough* National University graduates, among others *cough*).  They attend "credential mills" whose goal is to get the teacher credentialled ASAP, as opposed to actually teaching them anything practical.

If you find a really good education program, what you learn there is extremely valuable. If you choose a bad program just to finish faster, you're wasting your time and your money.


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