# Entangled Wing



## parkerkarate (Mar 2, 2005)

Can anyone explain to me how you are suposed to be able to drop to one knee while turning around as fast as you can, when you are facing someone who is knowledgeable in Aikido? It is just a hypothetical question. I always think that if an Aikido person gets you into that wrist lock/roll type of menouver, there is no way to stop them.
I guess the same would have to go with Twisted Twig.


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 2, 2005)

Well I don't drop to one knee but I'm hoping to not fight an aikido person either.


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## parkerkarate (Mar 2, 2005)

How did you learn it?


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 2, 2005)

A summed up version.
Step the right foot to 10:30 w/a left back elbow as the right arm still somewhat flows w/the lock _(kinda hard to describe)_ something similar to a right upward elbow. After the left elbow the left hand travels up to grab the opponents arm while executing a right back elbow. 

I keep a check of their arm over my shoulder  :idunno:  it helps when you are a little shorter than everyone else. 

I would post my description but I just purchased a new computer and don't have everything on this one yet.


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## parkerkarate (Mar 2, 2005)

Ok so we both pretty much learned it the same way. Mr. Palanzo just added that little full kneel in there.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 2, 2005)

The key to the aikido thing is to not let him get that hold on you. As a kenpoist, this should really be no problem. Heck, if all you knew was a jab, you should be able to avoid this dilemma.

Aikido relies heavily on borrowing directional force, associated with full-commitment. Pop the guy in the nose with a jab, instead of running at him with a wide swing, and the issue should end fairly quickly.

It's good you're identifying concerns in the tech's. There are things you can do to establish and/or maintain strength & integrity where you're sensing vulnerability. In general, if you feel unstable in a transition, you are. Put yer thinking cap on, and dare exploration outside the box. You might even improve on what's generally considered chiseled in stone.

Regards,

D.


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## kenpoworks (Mar 2, 2005)

Yep I would definately agree with D.
Entagled Wing & Twisted Twig are a real aid to understanding  Counter Manipulations, if you can get past the "written version" mind set.
ps don't try and do the "manual" version of Twisted Twig against a competent Jujitsu or Aikido guy. if you do , you will hit the deck like a bag of sugar.


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## Seabrook (Mar 3, 2005)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Can anyone explain to me how you are suposed to be able to drop to one knee while turning around as fast as you can, when you are facing someone who is knowledgeable in Aikido? It is just a hypothetical question. I always think that if an Aikido person gets you into that wrist lock/roll type of menouver, there is no way to stop them.
> I guess the same would have to go with Twisted Twig.


Dropping to one knee is something that I wouldn't recommend and is not the way I teach it. 

Here's a tip - check the opponent's depth by stepping in and checking his right knee. It makes a big difference.


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## parkerkarate (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks to all of you, all of these are great tips.

Salute,
David


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## GAB (Mar 3, 2005)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Yep I would definately agree with D.
> Entagled Wing & Twisted Twig are a real aid to understanding Counter Manipulations, if you can get past the "written version" mind set.
> ps don't try and do the "manual" version of Twisted Twig against a competent Jujitsu or Aikido guy. if you do , you will hit the deck like a bag of sugar.


Going to one knee in a boxing match will work sometimes and other times it won't. It did not work the other night and "Cotto" won.

I thought it was premature to stop the fight, but hey sometimes that happens...

The game we play where I come from, you stick your hand out in a jab fashion and you are going to pull back something hurt very bad or the game is all over. Hands and elbows meet, or elbows and forearms or lock it up or throw them. Conseptualization will help you understand this injury

Simple as that...

Take a simple upward block with your right hand or arm "we consider that a mistake", now you come over the top lock it up and damage the shoulder so bad the person is finished...Or as you are doing that you use a knee and put it in places you just don't want it to be...

You can take that as gospel... 

Regards, Gary


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## KenpoTess (Mar 3, 2005)

* MODERATOR NOTE

Keep the discussion on TOPIC.

~Tess
-MT S. Mod

*


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## GAB (Mar 3, 2005)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> * MODERATOR NOTE*
> 
> *Keep the discussion on TOPIC.*
> 
> ...


I thought I was, Just explaining my idea on how to entangle a wing...

Regards, Gary


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## KenpoTess (Mar 3, 2005)

Mod Note

For review of  Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion Rules

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43352&postcount=1

~Tess
-MT S. Mod


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## kenpoworks (Mar 3, 2005)

WOOOOSH,sorry but it went right over my head?


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## KENPOJOE (Mar 6, 2005)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Can anyone explain to me how you are suposed to be able to drop to one knee while turning around as fast as you can, when you are facing someone who is knowledgeable in Aikido? It is just a hypothetical question. I always think that if an Aikido person gets you into that wrist lock/roll type of menouver, there is no way to stop them.
> I guess the same would have to go with Twisted Twig.



Hi Folks!
The key to this technique is that it teaches you the concept of a {completed attack Vs "in progress"}. The bent arm figure 4 armlock that being applied has been locked in so that you must use "purposeful compliance" to yield with the attack as you drop your height zone and step scross diagonally to defuse the power of the lock and left your elbow to break the hold. Remember kenpo law: "The body does not work on diagonals". You do not drop to a knee as that will stop the rotational tourque that you need to apply the counter to the lock. Rather, stap and drop your height zone into a kneeling stance so that you can pivot and apply the elbow strikes [a "lower case" version of "twisted twig"].
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Mar 6, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> The key to the aikido thing is to not let him get that hold on you. As a kenpoist, this should really be no problem. Heck, if all you knew was a jab, you should be able to avoid this dilemma.
> 
> Aikido relies heavily on borrowing directional force, associated with full-commitment. Pop the guy in the nose with a jab, instead of running at him with a wide swing, and the issue should end fairly quickly.
> 
> ...


Hi Folks!
Dear D,
With all due respect, as Dan Ackroyd used to say to Jane Curtain on "Weekend Update" on SNL..."you've missed the point entirely." in regards to what the technique teaches you...
The point of "entangled wing" first of all teaches you "Whatever the attitude,so is the response" Because the person places you in a "contact manipulation" position, you respond initially with non lethal response, then to apply the elbow strikes. The classic bruce lee approach of "just hit him" can land YOU in court and or jail because your opponent "just grabbed you" and you punched him in response! As I mentioned in an earlier post, the attack, a bent arm figure 4 arm lock, is first taught to instruct you on how to apply this non lethal attack to somone rather than punch them in the first place!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Mar 6, 2005)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Yep I would definately agree with D.
> Entagled Wing & Twisted Twig are a real aid to understanding  Counter Manipulations, if you can get past the "written version" mind set.
> ps don't try and do the "manual" version of Twisted Twig against a competent Jujitsu or Aikido guy. if you do , you will hit the deck like a bag of sugar.



Hi Folks!
Why do you feel you cannot do the "written version" of the technique? The manual is fairly clear on how to perform the action once you have learned it firsthand from an instructor. As far as "twisted twig" goes, that is an "in progress" technique, where the attacker has performed an initial wrist conpression before he or she rotates the wrist for a wrist lock ["kote gaeshi"]so you can neutralize the attack BEFORE they complete the motion. If you are interested, I do have footage of Mr. Parker teaching this technique and he felt that entangled wing was so important he did the technique twice to clarrify the points in the technique.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## kenpoworks (Mar 6, 2005)

Hey Joe!,
Yes Entagled Wing is massive as is Twisted Twig. That is obvious from their uniqueness in the Coloured Belt Syllabus.
What drove me to explore these two techniques was the nature of the attack and its development.
AND YES, I am totally intrested in any input, that you have to enlighten me on any aspect of these or any other techniques, please PM me.
Respectfully Rich.
Ps "Hey Joe" is the opening line from one of my favourite Hendrix tracks!


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## KENPOJOE (Mar 6, 2005)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Hey Joe!,
> Yes Entagled Wing is massive as is Twisted Twig. That is obvious from their uniqueness in the Coloured Belt Syllabus.
> What drove me to explore these two techniques was the nature of the attack and its development.
> AND YES, I am totally intrested in any input, that you have to enlighten me on any aspect of these or any other techniques, please PM me.
> ...


Hi Folks!
Dear Rich,
Glad you like my posting on the boards regarding techniques. If and anyone else like what I write,Just click that "scales" icon so i can add some prestige/reputation points to my profile! :ultracool 
If you look at Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, you will get some insights into the origin and techniques that caused the kenpo "counters" to be devised!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## kenpo3631 (Mar 11, 2005)

> The key to the aikido thing is to not let him get that hold on you.



Correct. One thing I see many times from kenpoists is they are in the wrong mind set. I know because I was once guilty of it too. As practioners of EPAK many of us feel that we study a remarkable and some would argue a "superior" system of the martial arts. That attitude of seemingly instilled as instructors teach their students. Look at the phraseology instructors use, "If you hit him here or when you apply that there "X" will happen". See how the students feel after they leave the mats after dong the ideal phase of the techniques repetitiously for fifty or so minutes. I have made it a point that at nomatter what belt level I am instructing I remind them that we should, if confronted, assume that the person that is attacking us knows just as much about the art and is better at it than we are. I have found that it is a real eye-opener to some. Imagine that! Someone knows more about our clandestine operation to undermine their efforts to thump us....LOL!  



> don't try and do the "manual" version of Twisted Twig against a competent Jujitsu or Aikido guy. if you do , you will hit the deck like a bag of sugar



I somewhat agree. If you are that far along that and in a scrap with an Aikido practitioner....One, you need to ask yourself how did I let this guy get ahold of me, and Two, you should have recognized from the position you were in that it was likely going to end up in the arm lock.



> Why do you feel you cannot do the "written version" of the technique? The manual is fairly clear on how to perform the action once you have learned it firsthand from an instructor.



It also depends on which version of the manual you read....   :lol:


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## kenpoworks (Mar 11, 2005)

KENPo3631.....wrote.....I somewhat agree. If you are that far along that and in a scrap with an Aikido practitioner....One, you need to ask yourself how did I let this guy get ahold of me, and Two, you should have recognized from the position you were in that it was likely going to end up in the arm lock.

No I never said it was a scrap..thats a totally different "wild animal", as opposed to the "tame" studio technique type "animal". ...one.. I would analyse the "scrap" after it was done. Two... Twisted Twig is agin a wrist lock.
One way I practice Twisted Twig is as a Tactile exercise, the touch and feel of your partners fingers, thumbs and palms triggers your response....but thats only one of the ways I practice.


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## kenpo3631 (Mar 13, 2005)

I apologize. It was my understanding after reading the previous post that we were talking about utilizing the technique in a "street" situation and not a training situation.
I do have a question though. Don't you train as if it were a street situation, meaning doing the techniques at 3/4 speed? With what if's incorporated?
I know Twisted Twig is a wrist lock, however Entangled Wings' hold starts in the same fashion.


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## Doc (Mar 13, 2005)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Can anyone explain to me how you are suposed to be able to drop to one knee while turning around as fast as you can, when you are facing someone who is knowledgeable in Aikido? It is just a hypothetical question. I always think that if an Aikido person gets you into that wrist lock/roll type of menouver, there is no way to stop them.
> I guess the same would have to go with Twisted Twig.



You don't. However any discussion about this technique should begin with a clear understanding of, and the ability to execute the "attack." It is only through a competent "attack" can you determine whether or not your defensive answers are correct.

I was taught these techniques were part of the learning process as you began to understand and perform "Control Manipulations," (not contact) offensively and defensively. If you can't execute the offense, you'll never learn the defense.

That being said, you should be capeable of Indexing, controlling, and reversing the lock even AFTER it is applied.


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## parkerkarate (Jun 2, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> You don't. However any discussion about this technique should begin with a clear understanding of, and the ability to execute the "attack." It is only through a competent "attack" can you determine whether or not your defensive answers are correct.
> 
> I was taught these techniques were part of the learning process as you began to understand and perform "Control Manipulations," (not contact) offensively and defensively. If you can't execute the offense, you'll never learn the defense.
> 
> That being said, you should be capeable of Indexing, controlling, and reversing the lock even AFTER it is applied.



Ok Sir,
Can you put that in lamense terms for the people that are not so highly educated in the more advanced vocabulary of Kenpo?


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## Doc (Jun 2, 2005)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Ok Sir,
> Can you put that in lamense terms for the people that are not so highly educated in the more advanced vocabulary of Kenpo?


Certainly, although the terms are not "advanced."


			
				Doc said:
			
		

> You don't. However any discussion about this technique should begin with a clear understanding of, and the ability to execute the "attack." It is only through a competent "attack" can you determine whether or not your defensive answers are correct.


 Simply, techniques that requires some measure of the completion of the attack, are the most difficult to assess. Punches are relatively easy in comparison to "hands on" type assaults. The reason is a simple one. Once you and an attacker are "paired," he/she does have a measure of control if only momentarily until countered. This is not always as simple in execution as it seems, and is the reason for the existence of the lesser teaching method that turns all attacks into some type of an "attempt," even though by definition, some attacks must be completed. I.e., a punch may be thrown without making contact with the intended target whatever it might be. Even in the law, there is a definitive distinction between striking toward someone and actually making contact with the strike. The act of attempting a punch under California Penal Law is technically considered an "assault." Should the punch make contact, it is an escalation of the "assault" and is now considered a "battery." Thus the term under the law of "assault AND Battery." You can have an "assault" without a battery, but a "battery" INCLUDES the lesser offense of "assault." 

 So, it should be understood similarly in the examination of an attack scenario. A punch is obviously serious, but the level of seriousness escalates when ANY contact is made to your person because, once again some measure of control is being exerted on your person whether it be "contact manipulation," or "control manipulation," with the latter not included in the concept of motion based Kenpo, UNLESS injected by a knowledgeable teacher. Nevertheless, conceptually it is not an actual part of the curriculum. The fact these type attacks exist should give one pause to think of the possibilities Mr. Parker was attempting to lay a foundation for by generating the "idea" of their existence.

 The other example is like a "push." A "push" is a "battery" and includes the lesser offense of ATTEMPTING to "push." However, by definition, a "push" is something that has already occurred, and thus a measure of "control" is being exerted on your person BEFORE you have the opportunity to react to the external stimuli. Therefore "hands-on" techniques should in any examination REQUIRE you to allow a measure of the attack completion BEFORE you react into order to assess ones ability to counter the external stimuli or "battery" to your person. To reduce it to the lesser "attempt," is to deny the opportunity to assess your skill and knowledge of the reality of countering someone who is controlling, at least shortly, a portion of your body in some manner.

 In the case of a "Twisted Twig," or "Entangled Wing" type battery on your person, a student MUST be taught a degree of effective competency in the attack side of the technique first. Only in this manner will a training partner actually have the opportunity to examine the instructors "idea" of countering the attack, but its efficacy as well as their own ability to execute in a realistic scenario. To do otherwise is to delude oneself into believing they will always be capable of "moving first." That is an impossibility and will ultimately lead to false bravado and failure. I say the instructors "idea," because, as stated before, it's not a part of the actual curriculum.


			
				Doc said:
			
		

> I was taught these techniques were part of the learning process as you began to understand and perform "Control Manipulations," (not contact) offensively and defensively. If you can't execute the offense, you'll never learn the defense. That being said, you should be capeable of Indexing, controlling, and reversing the lock even AFTER it is applied.


 The idea here is if you are taught the attack side of the manipulations, then your lessons are two-fold. Not only do you began to understand and start down the road to "manipulation competency," but you develop an understanding of two perspectives of your training, which for most is lacking in these type techniques. Seizing a persons wrist for example, and "locking" and "controlling" them will pay benefits in skill, knowledge, and competency as you move higher in some curricula. This is also why, for my lineage, and me the idea of "extensions" to techniques that should be stand alone functional is an absurd one. Of course, if you're only studying from a "motion" based perspective, I can see their validity. However there is so much more to learn and besides, because of anatomical limitations, most "motion" begins to duplicate themselves and you're left with "discovering" another way to apply the same "motion" as opposed to expanded your knowledge and skill of human manipulation.

 As an aside, Mr. Parker always told me, "The ultimate aim of Kenpo is Control Manipulation." Something that isn't even represented in the four distances of Motion-Kenpo-Karate. "Elongating circles and rounding off corners" is an elementary lesson and couldn't possibly encompass the totality of the complexity of Ed Parker's "American Kenpo," and only resides in Ed Parker's "Kenpo-Karate." Two distinctly differing philosophies from my perspective.

Capeesh?


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## kenmpoka (Jun 3, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> In the case of a "Twisted Twig," or "Entangled Wing" type battery on your person, a student MUST be taught a degree of effective competency in the attack side of the technique first. Only in this manner will a training partner actually have the opportunity to examine the instructors "idea" of countering the attack, but its efficacy as well as their own ability to execute in a realistic scenario. To do otherwise is to delude oneself into believing they will always be capable of "moving first." That is an impossibility and will ultimately lead to false bravado and failure. I say the instructors "idea," because, as stated before, it's not a part of the actual curriculum.
> from my perspective.
> 
> Capeesh?



Doc, will you please go over the attack side of Entangled Wing.....The way it's done in most schools, it almost never happens in reality. As a practitioner of Aikido and Jujutsu for almost a decade, A full on fig 4. shoulder lock cannot be reversed by Entangled Wing,imho. The body would be too twisted and bent to reverse it by rotating and doing an arm bar. Any help is appreciated......

Salute,


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## Seabrook (Jun 3, 2005)

kenmpoka said:
			
		

> As a practitioner of Aikido and Jujutsu for almost a decade, A full on fig 4. shoulder lock cannot be reversed by Entangled Wing,imho. The body would be too twisted and bent to reverse it by rotating and doing an arm bar. Any help is appreciated......
> 
> Salute,


One thing I emphasize when teaching my students this technique is to make sure to check the depth of the opponent by stepping in with your right leg and checking his right knee before reversing the motion and busting his elbow over your shoulder. 

I find this makes a huge difference. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## parkerkarate (Jun 3, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Certainly, although the terms are not "advanced."
> 
> Simply, techniques that requires some measure of the completion of the attack, are the most difficult to assess. Punches are relatively easy in comparison to "hands on" type assaults. The reason is a simple one. Once you and an attacker are "paired," he/she does have a measure of control if only momentarily until countered. This is not always as simple in execution as it seems, and is the reason for the existence of the lesser teaching method that turns all attacks into some type of an "attempt," even though by definition, some attacks must be completed. I.e., a punch may be thrown without making contact with the intended target whatever it might be. Even in the law, there is a definitive distinction between striking toward someone and actually making contact with the strike. The act of attempting a punch under California Penal Law is technically considered an "assault." Should the punch make contact, it is an escalation of the "assault" and is now considered a "battery." Thus the term under the law of "assault AND Battery." You can have an "assault" without a battery, but a "battery" INCLUDES the lesser offense of "assault."
> 
> ...



Capeesh :asian: , thanks


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## kenmpoka (Jun 3, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> One thing I emphasize when teaching my students this technique is to make sure to check the depth of the opponent by stepping in with your right leg and checking his right knee before reversing the motion and busting his elbow over your shoulder.
> 
> I find this makes a huge difference.
> 
> ...



Mr. Seabrook,

I case of an attempt, yes that would help, but not a full on lock. Like I said the person in lock would be too twisted and bent to rotate....the shoulder is pushed too far back, and the elbow and wrist are far too bent.. My real problem is really with the attack. The way it is done is incorrect. Will you tell how you go about to start that lock? Off of a handshake, grab....?

Salute,


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## evenflow1121 (Jun 3, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Aikido relies heavily on borrowing directional force, associated with full-commitment. Pop the guy in the nose with a jab, instead of running at him with a wide swing, and the issue should end fairly quickly.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> ...


Great Post, I was thinking the exact same thing.


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## Doc (Jun 4, 2005)

kenmpoka said:
			
		

> Mr. Seabrook,
> 
> I case of an attempt, yes that would help, but not a full on lock. Like I said the person in lock would be too twisted and bent to rotate....the shoulder is pushed too far back, and the elbow and wrist are far too bent.. My real problem is really with the attack. The way it is done is incorrect. Will you tell how you go about to start that lock? Off of a handshake, grab....?
> 
> Salute,


Hey P.T. you are correct. Most have a tendancy to work off the false assumption of "moving first." As you know, "Entangled Wing" is a very specific attack utilizing what is commonly known as a "figure four" type lock to the arm and shoulder joint, effectively controlling height, width, and depth. This action cannot be "checked" or cancelled with the legs or feet.

As I stated in previous posts, this technique is a part of the curriculum to force students and teachers alike to consider the real possibilities and work toward an acceptable solution to what is a significant problem when applied by an experienced individual.

Most "solutions" put forth are predicated on intercepting the lock before it is applied, but let's back up a bit. First all techniques and their applications are height, width, and depth sensitive on a physical level. A "flank," (not front) wrist seize at one distance is "Crossing Talon." At another, possibly "Twisted Twig," and still another "Entangled Wing." This creates a rather unique perspective to the learning process in that the techniqes are inverse of their complexity relative to the skill level that should have been acquired at the time the techniques are learned. This is true of all "hands on" type techniques out of academic and physical structural necessity.

The technique as I understand it, is applied by seizing the wrist naturally, and then attacking the seized arm with a strike to the forearm or biceps to cause the victim to retract their arm either instinctually or through "pain." The attacker's striking arm is then place between the victims forearm and biceps as the arm is folded back, (generally speaking) hand toward the shoulder, with the attacker's striking hand now "entangled" in the victims arm. The original seizing hand is now sliding into a "reverse wrist flex" as the striking hand now grips the seizing arms wrist. The victims arm is now bent back over his shoulder, his wrist is flexed palm down, and is locked by both hands and arms of the attacker applied pressure in multiple directions.

The lessons of this technique at this point in the curriculum is, "it shouldn't happen," but still we must train for a worse case scenario, because in reality, all things are possible. We have been led to this conclusion through previous techniques that stop the assault earlier and earlier in the attack. Thus the solution to all three techniques may be contained in the initial response to the attack at the greatest distance of the attacker. Hoever we must still train for the responses that occur at the closer distance or "deeper" into the various attacks.

The answer for "Entangled Wing" is found in the same premise, that is, controlling the depth of your attacker, even though he has penetrated the depth zones of the inherent previous technique scenarios, if you prevent him from closing the depth for "Entangled Wing," *even though the lock is applied*, he will be incapable of a completed execution and control.

The problem with most Kenpo is generally a lack of *real* experience and knowledge at the level actually needed to be considered a "teacher," or "trainer" as we are called in law enforcement. Martial Arts Instructors should approach instruction as if their students life depend upon it and set their egos aside. Unfortunately, most are so far removed from reality, they simply don't know, what they don't know. As a LE Trainer, I know what I teach could possibly cost someone their life if I'm wrong. My approach to all my teaching is the same, and I take it very seriously. Reality Based Training, (RBT) has got to become the norm in Kenpo because that is what it is supposed to be. The problem is RBT and business do not co-exist very well. Most come to learn how to defend themselves, and when they think they have, they become teachers or founders of their own art. God help us, the Peter principle is alive and thriving in our art, or should I say business.

Hang in there P.T., I know where you're coming from.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jun 4, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Certainly, although the terms are not "advanced."
> 
> So, it should be understood similarly in the examination of an attack scenario. A punch is obviously serious, but the level of seriousness escalates when ANY contact is made to your person because, once again some measure of control is being exerted on your person whether it be "contact manipulation," or "control manipulation," with the latter not included in the concept of motion based Kenpo, UNLESS injected by a knowledgeable teacher. Nevertheless, conceptually it is not an actual part of the curriculum. The fact these type attacks exist should give one pause to think of the possibilities Mr. Parker was attempting to lay a foundation for by generating the "idea" of their existence.


I see you stated UNLESS. Are you acknowledging that others may have similar knowledge of what you call "control manipulation" though they call it contact manipulation?

Main Entry: *1con·trol* 
Pronunciation: k&n-'trOl
Function: _transitive verb_
Inflected Form(s): *con·trolled*; *con·trol·ling*
Etymology: Middle English _controllen, _from Middle French _contreroller, _from _contrerolle _copy of an account, audit, from Medieval Latin _contrarotulus, _from Latin _contra- _+ Medieval Latin _rotulus _roll -- more at [size=-1]ROLL[/size]
*1 a* _archaic_ *:* to check, test, or verify by evidence or experiments *b* *:* to incorporate suitable controls in <a _controlled _experiment>
*2 a* *:* to exercise restraining or directing influence over *: [size=-1]REGULATE[/size]* *b* *:* to have power over *: [size=-1]RULE[/size]* *c* *:* to reduce the incidence or severity of especially to innocuous levels <_control_ an insect population> <_control_ a disease>
*synonym* see [size=-1]CONDUCT[/size]
- *con·trol·la·bil·i·ty* /-"trO-l&-'bi-l&-tE/ _noun_
- *con·trol·la·ble* /-'trO-l&-b&l/ _adjective_
- *con·trol·ment* /-'trOl-m&nt/ _noun_ 


Main Entry: *2control*
Function: _noun_
Usage: _often attributive_
*1 a* *:* an act or instance of controlling; _also_ *:* power or authority to guide or manage *b* *:* skill in the use of a tool, instrument, technique, or artistic medium *c* *:* the regulation of economic activity especially by government directive -- usually used in plural <price _control__s_>
*2* *: [size=-1]RESTRAINT[/size], [size=-1]RESERVE[/size]*
*3* *:* one that controls : as *a *(1) *:* an experiment in which the subjects are treated as in a parallel experiment except for omission of the procedure or agent under test and which is used as a standard of comparison in judging experimental effects -- called also _control experiment_ (2) *:* one (as an organism, culture, or group) that is part of a control *b* *:* a device or mechanism used to regulate or guide the operation of a machine, apparatus, or system *c* *:* an organization that directs a spaceflight <mission _control_> *d* *:* a personality or spirit believed to actuate the utterances or performances of a spiritualist medium
*synonym* see [size=-1]POWER[/size]








Main Entry: *ma·nip·u·late*
Pronunciation: m&-'ni-py&-"lAt
Function: _transitive verb_
Inflected Form(s): *-lat·ed*; *-lat·ing*
Etymology: back-formation from _manipulation, _from French, from _manipuler _to handle an apparatus in chemistry, ultimately from Latin _manipulus_
*1* *:* to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
*2 a* *:* to manage or utilize skillfully *b* *:* to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
*3* *:* to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose *: [size=-1]DOCTOR[/size]*
- *ma·nip·u·lat·able* /-"lA-t&-b&l/ _adjective_
- *ma·nip·u·la·tion* /-"ni-py&-'lA-sh&n/ _noun_
- *ma·nip·u·la·tive* /-'ni-py&-"lA-tiv, -l&-/ _adjective_
- *ma·nip·u·la·tive·ly* _adverb_
- *ma·nip·u·la·tive·ness* _noun_
- *ma·nip·u·la·tor* /-"lA-t&r/ _noun_
- *ma·nip·u·la·to·ry* /-l&-"tOr-E, -"tor-/ _adjective_







With control being a noun the words are almost synonomous. In which context would you like us to take it?


Brought to you by the number 2 and the letter B LOL
DarK LorD


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## kenmpoka (Jun 4, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Hey P.T. you are correct. Most have a tendancy to work off the false assumption of "moving first." As you know, "Entangled Wing" is a very specific attack utilizing what is commonly known as a "figure four" type lock to the arm and shoulder joint, effectively controlling height, width, and depth. This action cannot be "checked" or cancelled with the legs or feet.
> 
> As I stated in previous posts, this technique is a part of the curriculum to force students and teachers alike to consider the real possibilities and work toward an acceptable solution to what is a significant problem when applied by an experienced individual.
> 
> ...



In the general case as you've described above, usually a rear cross over to an angle by the victim will negate the effect of the lock, at least temporarily, to buy time for a reversal. But if the Fig-4 is put on an angle, meaning the arm is pushed up and back, and twisted on the right flank of the victim, locking the three joints, shoulder, elbow, and the wrist, the pain would be so excruciating that any movement by the victim would even cause more pain. Now if you add a throw to this scenario, then all lights are out, "sayonara".


> The lessons of this technique at this point in the curriculum is, "it shouldn't happen," but still we must train for a worse case scenario, because in reality, all things are possible. We have been led to this conclusion through previous techniques that stop the assault earlier and earlier in the attack. Thus the solution to all three techniques may be contained in the initial response to the attack at the greatest distance of the attacker. Hoever we must still train for the responses that occur at the closer distance or "deeper" into the various attacks.



"What can go wrong, will go wrong"


> The answer for "Entangled Wing" is found in the same premise, that is, controlling the depth of your attacker, even though he has penetrated the depth zones of the inherent previous technique scenarios, if you prevent him from closing the depth for "Entangled Wing," *even though the lock is applied*, he will be incapable of a completed execution and control.



How do you do this? I am asking for your way in particular.


> The problem with most Kenpo is generally a lack of *real* experience and knowledge at the level actually needed to be considered a "teacher," or "trainer" as we are called in law enforcement



Well this why I believe the teachers and the instructors should be certificated in teaching and not just hold a certain BB rank. I also think that the instructors need to have either studied with an instructor experienced in the subsystems of the art, or have cross trained in arts contained within their art. Till I cross trained in Jujutsu and Aikido,  I had no clue as to the problems associated with teks like "Twisted Twig", "Entangled Wing". Let's not even start on the knife teks.



> Martial Arts Instructors should approach instruction as if their students life depend upon it and set their egos aside. Unfortunately, most are so far removed from reality, they simply don't know, what they don't know. As a LE Trainer, I know what I teach could possibly cost someone their life if I'm wrong. My approach to all my teaching is the same, and I take it very seriously. Reality Based Training, (RBT) has got to become the norm in Kenpo because that is what it is supposed to be. The problem is RBT and business do not co-exist very well.



How correct you are Sir.



> Hang in there P.T., I know where you're coming from.



Thank you Dr. Chapél.

Salute,


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I see you stated UNLESS. Are you acknowledging that others may have similar knowledge of what you call "control manipulation" though they call it contact manipulation?


Mr. O'Briant, there is confusion about the terminology because motion kenpo uses the contact manipulation term to accomplish what we in SL-4 call Control Manipulation. 

A check of the Encyclopedia shows Control is not in their base definition of the 4 distances. The reason for the distinction is because contact manipulation takes on a different and separate definition when the subcategories are inserted. However for those who are in motion kenpo AND have inserted the joint locks, etc the term means almost the same, with one of the distinctions being, As taught to me by Mr. Parker, Control Manipulations primary function is a complete control and physical  dominance of the subject exclusive of pain, which if it exists should be a secondary byproduct of your actions and not the goal. The other is the use of nerve cavity activations in conjunction with the Control Manipulatons.

So even those who do contact/control manipulations i.e. locks etc, who focus on pain are still not within Parkers SL-4 stated guidelines I follow. However other than the things I pointed out, they are essentially the same thing.

One of the things I have always done is speak of the instructor as being the primary asset and guiding force in Motion Kenpo-Karate. Good teachers produce good students, bad ones don't. The knowledge level of the kenpo will always be based on the teacher, no matter what we call what we do. Kenpo Contact Manipulation absolutely exist on the same level as Control manipulation. It just depends upon the teacher.

I may not always be flattering of the "base" Kenpo-Karate system, but some people have spent a lot of time recovering as much of the left out material as they can. I never take anything away from the good teachers, it's just the bad that bug me and gives Kenpo a bad name.


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## Michael Billings (Jun 10, 2005)

Never met Doc, never seen this in print, but what I am teaching includes:
Contact Manipulation
 Control Manipulation
 Control Immobilization
 Control Release (or escape)​ These are not four separate ranges I teach, but more a function of the degree and duration of contol either I or my oppontent has.  How does this fit in with your paradigm Doc?  Entangled Wing, if I was the attacker, could proceed through all four, and would require a different response at each level?

 -Michael


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Never met Doc, never seen this in print, but what I am teaching includes:
> Contact Manipulation
> Control Manipulation
> Control Immobilization
> ...


Interesting way of presenting the methodology, and makes sense. I presume you are from the offensive side on this, and it describes the action as it actually occurrs. It also incorporates the Contact AND Control Manipulation components as our curriculum would use them, and recognizes them as two separate entities that fuction differently. It is also interesting that you include Control Release as, (I presume again) the end after the manipulation is completed. I never thought of that term in that way in Kenpo, but in retrospect I do teach it in the Law Enforcement classes but never identified it that way. I guess I will have to use the term and write a definition for that application as well now. Thanks!

My understanding, definition and use of Control Release is two-fold and differs between the offensive and defensive applications.

*CONTROL RELEASE, (DEFENSIVE)* - Focuses on the extrication of body parts seized by an attacker. Primarily against but not limited to the upper limbs. See also CONTROL WIPE.

*CONTROL RELEASE, (OFFENSIVE)* - Usually occurring within the SEQUENTIAL FLOW of a technique, it is a releasing of a SEIZED subjects body part(s) in such a manner so as to CONTROL MANIPULATE a body part momentarily to create more Self-Defense options, and makes Self-Defense techniques functional. Used in the teaching of basic escapes, blocking, and striking techniques found in FORMS and SETS.

*CONTROL WIPE* - An offensive/defensive maneuver inherent in the blocking sets used to extricate grabs to the limbs using basic blocking concepts and angles.

Clearly what you are doing Mr. Billings would be considered "unconventional" in the commercial arena, and it is people like yourself who are pushing the envelope and intelligently applying your knowledge that I live for. Seeing your persepctive is cool stuff, and now I walk away with a new way to apply something. Thanks again.


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## TChase (Jun 10, 2005)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Never met Doc, never seen this in print, but what I am teaching includes:Contact Manipulation
> 
> 
> Control Manipulation
> ...


Good stuff. That's also very similar to the 8 Stages of Engagement taught in the UKF.

1. out of range

2. in range

3. contact penetration

4. impact manipulation

5. control manipulation

6. control maintenance

7. control release

8. contact extraction


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## Michael Billings (Jun 10, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> My understanding, definition and use of Control Release is two-fold and differs between the offensive and defensive applications.
> 
> *CONTROL RELEASE, (DEFENSIVE)* - Focuses on the extrication of body parts seized by an attacker. Primarily against but not limited to the upper limbs. See also CONTROL WIPE.
> 
> ...


 I do break the Control Release down offensively and defensively.  I originally started thinking about it in the early '80's while working in a psychiatric hospital. How to extricate from a restraint, without getting hurt, while locking him up.  Last out of the room should not have to get grabbed or hit on the way.  So without cuffs, the restraint went from however many staff it required, to two, then to one with another set on the door. 

 Offensively I work it as the control release is necessary due to environment, multiple opponents, or the guy settled down (and you don't want to get nailed on the way out.  

 I have worked the strikes and breaks in the blocking sets, with only one release move against a grab, but I clearly see them and have just never fallen across this.  THANKS, always more to play with.

 Respectfully,
 -Michael


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## melj7077 (Apr 24, 2006)

Eliminate the problem and do Crossing Talon as soon as the attacker starts trying to put the lock on.  Don't let him get to the figure 4 lock in the first place.


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