# Knee pain while doing kata



## Bill Mattocks (Dec 7, 2009)

I am currently attempting to learn 'Naihanchin' kata (Isshin-Ryu).  This requires a toe-in stance, knees slightly bent.  I am normally splay-footed, always have been.  So even a basic Seuichin stance (feet straight ahead) makes me feel like I'm toe-in, and an actual toe-in makes me feel like I'm twisting my feet off.  I've just started learning this kata, and my right knee is barking because of it.

Any thoughts?  Will this get better, or are there any stretching exercises I can do to 'loosen up' my knee to allow for this (for me) unnatural stance?

Thanks!


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## TKDHomeSchooler (Dec 7, 2009)

I hope you get good posts on this, I am very interested to find some tips too.

I am currently debating if I can continue with TKD due to a pair of jacked knees.  I sprained my MCL this year, took the rest of that session off and the next 8 week session to rest/heal/rehab, and I am still having issues with my forms that require me to pivot or put prolonged full body weight on my left leg.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 7, 2009)

TKDHomeSchooler said:


> I hope you get good posts on this, I am very interested to find some tips too.
> 
> I am currently debating if I can continue with TKD due to a pair of jacked knees.  I sprained my MCL this year, took the rest of that session off and the next 8 week session to rest/heal/rehab, and I am still having issues with my forms that require me to pivot or put prolonged full body weight on my left leg.



Well, so far I do not have any problems putting weight on my knees, although I did injure my right knee earlier this year and it took me quite some time to heal up from it (yes, I saw the doctor, and he took an x-ray, didn't see any damage, and I no could afford MRI on it).  It got better, though.

This more the pain you get from twisting the bloody thing.  I'm sure most people can turn their feet inwards more than I can, since I've been splayfooted all my life.  So for me, it really feels unnatural and just running through the kata has my knee hurting a bit.


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## jks9199 (Dec 7, 2009)

You may not be able to make that stance if you're serious splay footed.  Your instructor should be able to work with you on that, Bill.  You might also try working SLOWLY towards the ideal position, holding that stance at home for a few minutes at a time several times during the day.


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## Stac3y (Dec 7, 2009)

I have the opposite problem, as I am extremely pigeon-toed. I've been slowly working to be able to turn my feet out a bit (for instance, when kicking with the front leg, it helps to turn one's back foot out for balance). I have had to accept that there is only so far I can take this, though, because the toeing in results from torsion of the tibia--my bones are actually oriented that way. I can only turn my feet out by rotating the leg at the hip joint. You may be similarly limited. Are you able to do it, but with pain (and what is the level of the pain), or does your leg simply not go that way?


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 7, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> Are you able to do it, but with pain (and what is the level of the pain), or does your leg simply not go that way?



I can do it, with some pain.  The pain is not intense, but it persists - for example, I worked on that kata on Sunday and my knee still hurts today.  Not killing me kind of hurting, but a bit on the 'sharp' side when I flex my leg.  I'm aware of it, let's put it that way.


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## Stac3y (Dec 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I can do it, with some pain. The pain is not intense, but it persists - for example, I worked on that kata on Sunday and my knee still hurts today. Not killing me kind of hurting, but a bit on the 'sharp' side when I flex my leg. I'm aware of it, let's put it that way.


 
Sounds hopeful, then. But you may need to strengthen the muscles around the knee slowly to prevent injury, especially if you have to move quickly from that stance in the kata. How you would do that is beyond my scope of knowledge. Maybe standing with your toes turned in periodically throughout the day?


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## punisher73 (Dec 7, 2009)

I have a bum knee and it gives me some trouble every once in awhile especially if I turn my feet in too much.

Always refer to your instructor though, but what I have found are a couple of things.

1) When you are standing "normal" your knee tracks over your foot. Meaning when you bend your leg the knee and toe should be working in conjunction to make a straight line and not put pressure on the knee. Play around with this for your own body. How far can YOU turn in your feet without causing damage to your knees, because if it hurts now it will cause damage later from repetition.

2) Really look at the structure of the foot. Naihanchi stance is exagerated depending on your lineage (Isshin-Ryu uses a VERY pigeon toed stance that is very comparable to a Wing Chun basic stance). Put parrallel lines in front of a mirror the same width of your stance and then line up the outside edges of your feet on those lines. You will notice that your feet appear to be turned inward. This will still allow you to grip the floor and still be able to generate force properly without putting undo stress on the knees.  If you are unable to still do this without pain, I would talk to your instructor to still learn the lessons that Naihanchi teaches with body movement etc. and learn to modify it for your body.  In the long run, this will probably not be your "go to" kata for the majority of your self-defense skills.  Really focus on the katas that fit your build and body style and work those extra hard.

There is one thing though that that the Naihanchi stance does that #2 will not allow you to do and that is protecting the groin. By getting a narrower stance and really bending the knees in and sinking down (some will teach you should be able to hold a tennis ball between your knees) you close off the groin for a kick. In my personal opinion, I would rather have good knees and be mobile and learn other ways to protect the groin than by using the stance this way.

Hope that helps you some.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 7, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> 1) When you are standing "normal" your knee tracks over your foot. Meaning when you bend your leg the knee and toe should be working in conjunction to make a straight line and not put pressure on the knee. Play around with this for your own body. How far can YOU turn in your feet without causing damage to your knees, because if it hurts now it will cause damage later from repetition.



That's really interesting!  I tried it just now.  If I stand in a 'normal' stance for me, my feet are at about a 30 degree angle.  If I bend my knees, they are pointed straight ahead.  If I make my feet go 'straight' and parallel to each other and then bend my knees, they are pointed ever so slightly inwards and I can feel that when I dip down.  If I stand in a Naihanchi, my knees are really pointed inwards when I bend my knees in a crouch.  Basically, it looks like my knees track my big toes - not pointed the same direction but hovering over them.  Does that make sense?

I never knew I 'stand funny' until once I met a girl I hadn't seen since we were in the 1st grade together.  She came right up to me and said my name, and said she recognized me because of the way I stand.  Must be weird.



> 2) Really look at the structure of the foot. Naihanchi stance is exagerated depending on your lineage (Isshin-Ryu uses a VERY pigeon toed stance that is very comparable to a Wing Chun basic stance). Put parrallel lines in front of a mirror the same width of your stance and then line up the outside edges of your feet on those lines. You will notice that your feet appear to be turned inward. This will still allow you to grip the floor and still be able to generate force properly without putting undo stress on the knees.  If you are unable to still do this without pain, I would talk to your instructor to still learn the lessons that Naihanchi teaches with body movement etc. and learn to modify it for your body.  In the long run, this will probably not be your "go to" kata for the majority of your self-defense skills.  Really focus on the katas that fit your build and body style and work those extra hard.
> 
> There is one thing though that that the Naihanchi stance does that #2 will not allow you to do and that is protecting the groin. By getting a narrower stance and really bending the knees in and sinking down (some will teach you should be able to hold a tennis ball between your knees) you close off the groin for a kick. In my personal opinion, I would rather have good knees and be mobile and learn other ways to protect the groin than by using the stance this way.
> 
> Hope that helps you some.



Thank you, that helps a bunch.  I will keep working on the kata, but I won't push the pigeon-toed stance too much.  I was kind of hoping my knees would loosen up and get used to it, but perhaps they won't.  Your information about being able to block a kick to the groin matches exactly what my sensei tells me.  He says _"if you're comfortable in this kata, you're doing it wrong."_  Still, I think there's a difference between 'comfortable' and knee pain several days later, eh?


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 7, 2009)

All I can add is what my Xingyiquan sifu told me when we were training Santi

If it is muscle pain shut-up I dont want to hear it. If it is joint pain, tell me. 

Talk to your sensei about it.


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## searcher (Dec 8, 2009)

Bill a couple of questions, are you guys doing Naihanchin not in a horse stance?  What you are describing to me is a Sanchin-dachi and I have never done Naihanchin in anything but a horse stance(even in Isshinryu).

How far are your knees coming forward?    To far forward along with a twisting at the knee and not at the hip will kill your knees.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 8, 2009)

searcher said:


> Bill a couple of questions, are you guys doing Naihanchin not in a horse stance?  What you are describing to me is a Sanchin-dachi and I have never done Naihanchin in anything but a horse stance(even in Isshinryu).



One of my senseis describes it as 'riding a horse', but bear in mind that it is a very high stance compared to say Seuichin, which is much 'squattier'.  The feet are shoulder-width apart, but we must be able to squat and slam our knees together at any time to block an incoming groin kick.  I personally would not call it a horse stance, it's way to high for that.



> How far are your knees coming forward?    To far forward along with a twisting at the knee and not at the hip will kill your knees.


I'm not sure what you mean.  My knees are bent slightly, but since it's not a deep stance, my knees are not 'far forward' if you mean in front of my feet.  I can still see my toes over my knees when I'm standing in Naihanchin.

There is a drawing of our naihanchi dachi here:

http://isshinryu-hillsboro.com/members/stances.shtml

This looks like what we're doing in terms of foot position.  Our sanchin dachi only turns in the leading foot.  I find it much easier, mainly because one foot can remain straight and also that the turned in foot is forward.  When both feet are online and both turned in, it's a killer.  At least, it is so far.  I'm hoping I'll get used to it.

EDIT: I just found this online - it looks pretty darn close to the way we do it at my dojo.  Note the stance is pretty high, not what I'd call a 'horse' stance.

http://www.isshinryu.com/new/Naihanchi_Illustrations_1.asp


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## punisher73 (Dec 9, 2009)

What many styles do with their Naihanchi is use the stance that would be labeled "Kiba Dachi" on the first link the Mr. Mattocks posted.  Choki Motobu used this type of stance.  Here is a picture of Motobu doing Naihanchi kata.  Notice that the outside edges of his feet are parrallel so they appear slightly turned inward.






Here is a clip of Naihanchi done with the narrower stance that many lineages use.




 
Notice it's similarity to Wing Chun's basic stance (Kim Yeung Ma)





The reason I point that out is that Wing Chun is a southern style and has similarites to the Okinawan Karate styles (Isshin Ryu as well) that were also influenced by southern style kung fu.  You will also see this stance in some kung fu styles dynamic tension forms that resemble Isshin Ryu's Sanchin kata.


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## Lightning Ram (Dec 9, 2009)

Bill, knee pain can come from alot of areas, tight hamstring, tight calf muscles, hip flexors, abductors and adductor and as many others such as lower back. Tight muscle will not help you get your leg in the right position. I'm not sure of what type of stretching program you have but you may want to expand it so injuries won't happen.

Check out this web site. There is a forum there to as questions about any problems you have. Also videos for alot a stretching techniques.

http://paulzaichik.com/Forum/index.php


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## punisher73 (Dec 11, 2009)

Mr. Mattocks,

Just checking in with you on how your knees are doing?  How goes the study of Naihanchi?  What advice did your Sensei have/give?


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 11, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Mr. Mattocks,
> 
> Just checking in with you on how your knees are doing?  How goes the study of Naihanchi?  What advice did your Sensei have/give?



As it turns out, my knee is still barking a bit.  We did some self-defense techniques in the dojo last night that involved breaking a headlock.  As uke, I got tossed to the ground a few times, and my knee got wrenched a tiny bit more.  Normally would not have been a problem, but it did aggravate things a tiny bit.  I'm a little stiff and sore today.

However, I have been listening to the advice I read here.  I'm trying to go slow and easy on my naihanchi stance, not forcing it too much. Trying to make sure I really stretch carefully before beginning the kata. I presume it will just take some time to get used to this new stance.  In the end, if I can't do it, I'll do the best I can.  We have a couple students who, due to real physical limitations, can't perform certain moves.  Sensei just asks them to do what they can.  I am going to persevere on this and see how far I can get.  I will try not to do any real damage.

I'm leaving for NC for a couple weeks, so I will have some time to heal.

Thanks for asking!


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