# My thoughts on Aggression and Momentum.



## Ronnin (Oct 27, 2008)

Wing chun, muay thai, boxing, among many others I refer to as "Close Combat Arts". These arts are for what I call the "Slow Fight". The Slow Fight occurs when two people are in a toe-to-toe jockeying for position, measure eachother up with quick jabs and crosses, and quick kicks. Most of the time a fight will not begin with the Slow Fight, rather they will begin with aggression and ambush, a running punch, or suprise punch (sucker punch). When combating a suprise punch there's not much one can do except strive to always be aware of their surroundings. You can't really defend against a suprise punch due to the fact of if it's done correctly you don't see it coming, this falls under the "Ambush".
    If a fight doesn't start with the Ambush, it would most likely start with "Aggression and Force Momentum". For example if someone is going to attack with aggression, when they throw a punch most likely their whole body will be thrown also, to the effect if they don't connect with their punch they may fall over due to the momentum, and force which goes along with aggression. If we try to stand infront of someone who fights with aggression at their core, and try to catch the punch to then absorb and deflect the oncoming Force Momentum, as seen in Taijiquan, Aikido, Ninjutsu, and many other just to name a few. We as the defender will likely still be overtaken by the momentum even if the defender uses proper technique proven "in the dojo". A 180lb man rushing at you with their whole body in one quick motion becomes 540lbs doubling or tripling the pound force coming at the defender. This is just to much force to stand, absorb, and deflect. To combat the momentum the defender needs to move completely out of the path of momentum, strategically placing his body in a position to make a quick responsive counter attack. Remember, because of the combonation of Aggression, and Force Momentum, when a punch is being thrown it will most likely be followed with the attackers entire body coming as well, thus if the defender moves from the path of momentum he will find himself parallel to or even behind his attacker. This is "Evasion".
    Evasion is not simply getting out of the way of an attack, it's the stratigec placement of the body during the retreat making it an attack. In military tactics Evasion is drilled constantly. Evasion is not running away, it's getting out of the pathway of the attack, taking your squad to vulnerable points in the enemies defense to launch your counter attack while under fire. This form of Evasion is very effective against a larger force and performed as one continual act.


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## althaur (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't remember ever being shown to "absorb" the attack.  In every class I've ever been in with EVERY instructor, I was taught to evade.  I like what you are saying there, I'm just not sure where you got the idea that "ninjutsu" (I'm assuming you mean Bujinkan) just absorbs the attack with out moving to a tactically advantageous position.  

I have always been taught, and I continue to teach, move to a safe position first.


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## Ronnin (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm just talking in general through my own studies, but you cant say in the X kans dont teach you to "catch" a punch ( taki ori) forgive the misspelling.


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## Kreth (Oct 29, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> I'm just talking in general through my own studies, but you cant say in the X kans dont teach you to "catch" a punch ( taki ori) forgive the misspelling.


Take ori, if that's what you're referring to, is a wrist lock/breaking technique.


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## zeeberex (Oct 29, 2008)

althaur said:


> I don't remember ever being shown to "absorb" the attack.  In every class I've ever been in with EVERY instructor, I was taught to evade.  I like what you are saying there, I'm just not sure where you got the idea that "ninjutsu" (I'm assuming you mean Bujinkan) just absorbs the attack with out moving to a tactically advantageous position.
> 
> I have always been taught, and I continue to teach, move to a safe position first.



Perhaps a mistranslation? There's evading a punch, absorbing the punch and sucking them in, all of which have similarities, and varying levels of subtlety.


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## Ronnin (Oct 29, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Take ori, if that's what you're referring to, is a wrist lock/breaking technique.


Yes but if I remember correctly :mst: the attacker punches you, you step back slightly to catch the punch then when he retracts his arm you follow it in applying the lock.


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## althaur (Oct 29, 2008)

That is one way that you have been shown to set up Take Ori.  You should still be moving slightly off the line of strength when doing it this way though.  Why would you stand in front of the locomotive when all you have to do is step off the tracks?

Zeeberex, you are right about varying levels of subtelty.  However, if you choose to absorb or suck them in when they are throwing themselves at you and you don't give them the space to fall into, you're doing it wrong.  IMO.


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## newy085 (Oct 29, 2008)

Sorry for intruding but I am posting from a karate perspective. Within our school we are taught three responses to an attack. 1. Move & Break (get out of distance), 2. Move, Block & Counter, 3, Anticipate. Only on the anticipate do we plant out weight and drive forward through an attack, all others we try to move off line, or off distance, then attack. This helps with both the defense and the attack.

We do a small amount of locks and hold, but no matter what we are always taught to move, then block, and if they are still close enough then execute. Is this similar within ninjutsu, or is there otherways to redirect attacks without trying to outmuscle the aggressor? Or does the difference happen only in the timing of the movement (simultaneously with the block)?


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## Kreth (Oct 30, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> Yes but if I remember correctly :mst: the attacker punches you, you step back slightly to catch the punch then when he retracts his arm you follow it in applying the lock.





althaur said:


> That is one way that you have been shown to set up Take Ori.  You should still be moving slightly off the line of strength when doing it this way though.  Why would you stand in front of the locomotive when all you have to do is step off the tracks?


What althaur said. Typically you would sidestep or slip the punch in some fashion, trap the arm and then move into take ori. Why would you try to catch a punch moving at full speed?



newy085 said:


> We do a small amount of locks and hold, but no matter what we are always taught to move, then block, and if they are still close enough then execute. Is this similar within ninjutsu, or is there otherways to redirect attacks without trying to outmuscle the aggressor? Or does the difference happen only in the timing of the movement (simultaneously with the block)?


We tend not to do hard blocks as such. You might see a subtle redirection of an attack, in conjunction with some type of movement off the line of attack.


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## morph4me (Oct 30, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> Yes but if I remember correctly :mst: the attacker punches you, you step back slightly to catch the punch then when he retracts his arm you follow it in applying the lock.


 
I can give you an opinion from an aikido perspective. It's damn near impossible to catch a punch that's coming at you with speed, provided the puncher knows enough to retract his hand so he can use it again. I think that the word catch is a misnomer when talking about taking control of a punch, it's probably more of stepping off line, making contact and following the energy, taking control as you do.


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## zeeberex (Oct 30, 2008)

althaur said:


> Zeeberex, you are right about varying levels of subtelty.  However, if you choose to absorb or suck them in when they are throwing themselves at you and you don't give them the space to fall into, you're doing it wrong.  IMO.



Possibly, but even in closer quarters you might be able to use a spin out sort of application, it may be dependent on the basis of your system's movement. After all, a spinning kick isn't your best option in a men's room stall.


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## zeeberex (Oct 30, 2008)

newy085 said:


> Sorry for intruding but I am posting from a karate perspective. Within our school we are taught three responses to an attack. 1. Move & Break (get out of distance), 2. Move, Block & Counter, 3, Anticipate. Only on the anticipate do we plant out weight and drive forward through an attack, all others we try to move off line, or off distance, then attack. This helps with both the defense and the attack.
> 
> We do a small amount of locks and hold, but no matter what we are always taught to move, then block, and if they are still close enough then execute. Is this similar within ninjutsu, or is there otherways to redirect attacks without trying to outmuscle the aggressor? Or does the difference happen only in the timing of the movement (simultaneously with the block)?



The Ninpo basic block in it's basic form is sort of going back at a 45 degree angle and the "block" is a sort of grazing off motion redirecting the punch, but it is more or less a simultaenous move, not move and block. What happens next will vary with the circumstance.


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## Kreth (Oct 30, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> The Ninpo basic block in it's basic form is sort of going back at a 45 degree angle and the "block" is a sort of grazing off motion redirecting the punch, but it is more or less a simultaenous move, not move and block. What happens next will vary with the circumstance.


What style of Ninpo are you referring to? :idunno:


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## kaizasosei (Oct 30, 2008)

It may be different depending on how one defines it, but my understanding of absorbing, entails moving out of the way.  Not to absorb into oneself, but absorb and redirect or deflect.  In sword arts, i believe absorbing a technique for example does not mean that you absorb into yourself but absorb while getting out of the way taking care not to get caught up or snared.

This is a great subject that i have thought about much.  As i am practicing BJJ and lots of wrestling/rolling sparring, i have come to see that if a partner or opponent is careful and not overly committed to an attack, many techniques may not work right.  For example, when one attemps tomoenage as in judo or ransetsu, it may work without getting the momentum of the attacker provided one is heavier or pulling the right area, but if the opponent realizes the move in the last second and retracts his forward energy and momentum, the move will most likely not work.  If an attacker is coming in at full speed and not careful, it may well work like a charm, there is a fine line.

In mma/freefighting, for the most part the contestants are highly aware of body dynamics and all sorts of techniques.  They are in an extremely defensive stance, very low and grounded while at the very same time are able to explosively switch the defensive strategy into an offensive strategy and move to attack with a technique often brutaly effective such as double/single leg takedown or legtakedowns...
Actually it is a very good strategy and the solid footing, intimate knowledge of balance and extremely receptive reactions are superior to many common martial arts strategies when it comes to sport as well as combat in i'd say many instances.  

One way to overcome a powerful and receptive grappler is with striking techniques, but if the mmartist, for example is also an adept striker, it may not be that easy either.  There are many factors, i believe that constitute a good fighter-strategy being very important, luck less important but not insignificant either..

Just my experiences, im sure anyone with enough practice,training and correct application can make techniques work at the right time in the right situation..



j


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## George Kohler (Oct 30, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> Yes but if I remember correctly :mst: the attacker punches you, you step back slightly to catch the punch then when he retracts his arm you follow it in applying the lock.


 
Hey Ranger,

In the Genbukan we do have this waza against the punch. There is an outside version (omote) and inside version (ura). In the omote version you use tai sabaki to the outside of the punch and use the right arm as a guiding block and then a catch to the wrist. Also, using the left hand to the opponent's elbow. Applying pressure to the wrist and and elbow and move his arm behind and then down for kime (final restraint).

The ura version is a little hard to describe so I'll just post the link to the video. http://www.genbukan.org/s3/site/movies/Ura_Take_Ori.wmv 

Sorry, no video for the omote version.


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## zeeberex (Oct 30, 2008)

Kreth said:


> What style of Ninpo are you referring to? :idunno:



myo fun an variation of the Bujinkan


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## Kreth (Oct 30, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> myo fun an variation of the Bujinkan


Interesting, when I trained with Muramatsu san he was showing the same basic ichi monji that you're describing, but with a strike to the attacking limb. This is also how I've seen the basic technique taught (and have taught it) for the last 16 years. The subtler redirection is usually taught later on after the student has the footwork down.


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## zeeberex (Oct 30, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Interesting, when I trained with Muramatsu san he was showing the same basic ichi monji that you're describing, but with a strike to the attacking limb. This is also how I've seen the basic technique taught (and have taught it) for the last 16 years. The subtler redirection is usually taught later on after the student has the footwork down.



I actually learned the one you describe as a henka, the subtle redirection is the basic I learned, but bear in mind there has been "evolution" of various techniques over time. Our front choke basic I originally learned is presently a henka as well.


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## Ronnin (Oct 30, 2008)

George Kohler said:


> Hey Ranger,
> 
> In the Genbukan we do have this waza against the punch. There is an outside version (omote) and inside version (ura). In the omote version you use tai sabaki to the outside of the punch and use the right arm as a guiding block and then a catch to the wrist. Also, using the left hand to the opponent's elbow. Applying pressure to the wrist and and elbow and move his arm behind and then down for kime (final restraint).
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying, but in that video it kind of proves my statements, the punch was given but with no Force Momentum. Add that and everything changes, if I saw someone catch a punch like that I'd soil myself :fart:
RLTW !


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## althaur (Oct 30, 2008)

zeeberex said:


> Possibly, but even in closer quarters you might be able to use a spin out sort of application, it may be dependent on the basis of your system's movement. After all, a spinning kick isn't your best option in a men's room stall.




You are right, sometimes you don't have space to "spin out".  That's not what I meant by giving them space to fall into.  You can do it by simply shifting your body, turning your shoulders or hips, or stepping.  It doesn't have to be abig spinning movement.

Out of curiousity, Zee and Ronin, how long have each of you been training?  I'm not asking to talk down to you based on rank or any silly thing like that.  In my experience, we sometimes make definitive statements when we don't know any better due to a little knowledge.   

I have been guilty of it.  I'm sure Jeff and others would admit to it also.  HAve a great day.


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## Ronnin (Oct 31, 2008)

althaur said:


> You are right, sometimes you don't have space to "spin out".  That's not what I meant by giving them space to fall into.  You can do it by simply shifting your body, turning your shoulders or hips, or stepping.  It doesn't have to be abig spinning movement.
> 
> Out of curiousity, Zee and Ronin, how long have each of you been training?  I'm not asking to talk down to you based on rank or any silly thing like that.  In my experience, we sometimes make definitive statements when we don't know any better due to a little knowledge.
> 
> I have been guilty of it.  I'm sure Jeff and others would admit to it also.  HAve a great day.


Well martial arts in general, I've been studying since I was 7, I'm now 30, Bujinkan 3 years, but as of now I am not actively studying. What I am saying here is not for people in the "kan's", it's for all arts, to many times I see people being instructed to absorb and deflect, or make a slight movement as the attacker is to just "graze" off you, but my fear is when this happens for real and that guy throws his whole heart and soul at you, you'll be overtaken then blame the art or the instructor, as if they're supposed to tell us some "secret" on how to make it work. It's just the law of Physics, you being 180lbs, wont be able to absorb 540lbs. Even if light contact is made, we will still be thrown off.


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## Kreth (Oct 31, 2008)

althaur said:


> I'm sure Jeff and others would admit to it also.  HAve a great day.


I gained most of my m4d sk1llz by screwing up in training and getting corrected by someone who actually knew what they were doing... :lol:


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## zeeberex (Oct 31, 2008)

althaur said:


> You are right, sometimes you don't have space to "spin out".  That's not what I meant by giving them space to fall into.  You can do it by simply shifting your body, turning your shoulders or hips, or stepping.  It doesn't have to be abig spinning movement.
> 
> Out of curiousity, Zee and Ronin, how long have each of you been training?  I'm not asking to talk down to you based on rank or any silly thing like that.  In my experience, we sometimes make definitive statements when we don't know any better due to a little knowledge.
> 
> I have been guilty of it.  I'm sure Jeff and others would admit to it also.  HAve a great day.



I've been a member of the current dojo since 1995.


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## zeeberex (Oct 31, 2008)

althaur said:


> You are right, sometimes you don't have space to "spin out".  That's not what I meant by giving them space to fall into.  You can do it by simply shifting your body, turning your shoulders or hips, or stepping.  It doesn't have to be abig spinning movement.
> 
> Out of curiousity, Zee and Ronin, how long have each of you been training?  I'm not asking to talk down to you based on rank or any silly thing like that.  In my experience, we sometimes make definitive statements when we don't know any better due to a little knowledge.
> 
> I have been guilty of it.  I'm sure Jeff and others would admit to it also.  HAve a great day.



I've been a member of the current dojo since 1995. Prior training was Judo, and then TKD both for about a year, and dabble in arnis and serak, that has been off an on fopr a several years.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 1, 2008)

althaur said:


> I have been guilty of it. I'm sure Jeff and others would admit to it also. HAve a great day.


 
Not me, I am a Ninpo God, all shall Ph33R my mad skillz.  Everyone should bow before my... No Jeff... dont post thos pics of you kicking my ***... I'll be good, I swear.


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## nitflegal (Nov 1, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> Well martial arts in general, I've been studying since I was 7, I'm now 30, Bujinkan 3 years, but as of now I am not actively studying. What I am saying here is not for people in the "kan's", it's for all arts, to many times I see people being instructed to absorb and deflect, or make a slight movement as the attacker is to just "graze" off you, but my fear is when this happens for real and that guy throws his whole heart and soul at you, you'll be overtaken then blame the art or the instructor, as if they're supposed to tell us some "secret" on how to make it work. It's just the law of Physics, you being 180lbs, wont be able to absorb 540lbs. Even if light contact is made, we will still be thrown off.



I dunno, my training in the Bujinkan (off and on since '93) has always entailed modifying or even replacing techniques based on differences in body type, shape, energy level, or timing.  Shoot, if a 540 pound guy is punching to take my head off, I wouldn't waste that much beautiful momentum with a slight misdirection even if I could.  There are so many more entertaining things to do with him/her.

Matt


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## Aiki Lee (Nov 5, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> I understand what you're saying, but in that video it kind of proves my statements, the punch was given but with no Force Momentum. Add that and everything changes, if I saw someone catch a punch like that I'd soil myself :fart:
> RLTW !


 
This example clearly shows the technique being taught, not applied to the dynamics of a real fight.

By utilizing upper level martial arts skills like sen sen no sen, one begins to feel where he can fit into his attacker's strikes in order to "catch" the punsh. If practiced enough this becomes quite easy to do in free response situations, but only if you act at the right time and remember to hit as you move to set up for your own technique.

Also if you watch videos of hatsumi, you can see him draw his attacker in to him with aiki like motions which if applied in a real fight lead to what I described above.


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## zeeberex (Nov 5, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> I understand what you're saying, but in that video it kind of proves my statements, the punch was given but with no Force Momentum. Add that and everything changes, if I saw someone catch a punch like that I'd soil myself :fart:
> RLTW !



Indeed, there is an inside and outside version of "basic block", an dthere is in my dojo, a grazing off version as well as the smack the offending fist version, and other henka. Methinks we are discussing either xkan variations or degrees of technique subtlety


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