# Have you ever been visited by Kukkiwon?



## troubleenuf (Feb 10, 2011)

Had such great info from the last thread I started thought I would start a new one!  
Question is:  If you are a Kukkiwon school, have you ever been visited by a Kukkiwon official to see if you are teaching what they are certifying?


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## terryl965 (Feb 10, 2011)

They do not govern what is being tought, so I doubt if that would ever happen.....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 10, 2011)

What Terry said.  The Kukkiwon isn't a governing body in that sense.

Daniel


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## Miles (Feb 10, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Had such great info from the last thread I started thought I would start a new one!
> Question is: If you are a Kukkiwon school, have you ever been visited by a Kukkiwon official to see if you are teaching what they are certifying?


 

The Kukkiwon certifies instructors, not schools.  However, that being said, I've not been visited by Kukkiwon officials to see what I (as an instructor certified by the Kukkiwon) am teaching my students.   Frankly the Kukkiwon does not have the personnel to visit each and every school.  That is why it has made such great efforts to have foreign instructor courses, updated educational materials, etc.


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## puunui (Feb 10, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> If you are a Kukkiwon school, have you ever been visited by a Kukkiwon official to see if you are teaching what they are certifying?




The Kukkiwon doesn't send officials to audit the instructors it has certified.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 10, 2011)

puunui said:


> The Kukkiwon doesn't send officials to audit the instructors it has certified.


That has been stated so many times on this site since I have been here that I am always surprised when it is asked.

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Feb 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That has been stated so many times on this site since I have been here that I am always surprised when it is asked.
> 
> Daniel


 
Next someone will mis-interpret the "MINIMAL" requirements of KKW as the 1 and ONLY requirements needed for a BB... oh wait... already did MANY TIMES!


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 10, 2011)

Is there an actual 'checklist' of things required to get a black belt or is that up to the discretion of the instructor?


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## RonMarlow (Feb 10, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Had such great info from the last thread I started thought I would start a new one!
> Question is:  If you are a Kukkiwon school, have you ever been visited by a Kukkiwon official to see if you are teaching what they are certifying?



Yes, today.  Kukkiwon President Won Sik Kang and Chief of the International Department Hyung Sun Lee visited our city (Las Vegas) and met with the instructors in the area that have been promoting students through the Kukkiwon to announce the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System (KOMS). Among the goals of the program is to classify and enroll dojangs, standardize curriculum, facilitate communication between overseas (from the Korean perspective) dojangs and Kukkiwon and among KOMS dojangs worldwide and to assist KOMS dojangs in promotion of TKD events, seminars and internal growth. This program is to address the "individualization" of  instruction outside of Korea that is degrading TKD and inhibiting growth. So, yes they are checking up on instructors and they are not happy.

Most of the previous comments in this thread are out of date and wrong. If you are in Southern California, President Kang will be paying you a visit Saturday afternoon. The program was conceived last year. It is being developed now, they have experts working on curriculum materials now and they are previewing it is the USA now, Germany and France are next. They will be conducting seminars this year.  Implementation of the memberships application process starts now. In 2012 the system should be operational. If you go to the Kukkiwon website, at the bottom of the page you will find a non-functional button labeled "KOMS". It should be functional soon with the information presented today.

This is not an add for the KOMS program. I don't know what I think about it, when my wife decides she will tell me what my opinion is. One of the touted benefits among many fans of Kukkiwon Dan certification was the absence of onerous instructional oversight and the flexibility this allowed individual instructors. The boys and girls at Kukkiwon see this as a flaw in their system that has resulted in the degradation of the martial art, a heresy, and they are moving to fix it.

So, good question troubleenuf, the guys at Kukkiwon are watching us and they are not amused.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 10, 2011)

Do you know where he will be in So. Cal this weekend?


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## terryl965 (Feb 10, 2011)

RonMarlow said:


> Yes, today. Kukkiwon President Won Sik Kang and Chief of the International Department Hyung Sun Lee visited our city (Las Vegas) and met with the instructors in the area that have been promoting students through the Kukkiwon to announce the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System (KOMS). Among the goals of the program is to classify and enroll dojangs, standardize curriculum, facilitate communication between overseas (from the Korean perspective) dojangs and Kukkiwon and among KOMS dojangs worldwide and to assist KOMS dojangs in promotion of TKD events, seminars and internal growth. This program is to address the "individualization" of instruction outside of Korea that is degrading TKD and inhibiting growth. So, yes they are checking up on instructors and they are not happy.
> 
> Most of the previous comments in this thread are out of date and wrong. If you are in Southern California, President Kang will be paying you a visit Saturday afternoon. The program was conceived last year. It is being developed now, they have experts working on curriculum materials now and they are previewing it is the USA now, Germany and France are next. They will be conducting seminars this year. Implementation of the memberships application process starts now. In 2012 the system should be operational. If you go to the Kukkiwon website, at the bottom of the page you will find a non-functional button labeled "KOMS". It should be functional soon with the information presented today.
> 
> ...


 
Please give me the names ofd the school inLas Vegas and which instructor was visited because I know alot of them and none of them had a visit from the KKW? I know because I just got off the phone with one and said he has heard nothing about this. There is absolutelt noway they can control over 100,000 KKW schools and affiliates school over here in America, Sorry but I just cannot see how they can or would manage such a feet...:erg:


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## puunui (Feb 10, 2011)

RonMarlow said:


> Yes, today.  Kukkiwon President Won Sik Kang and Chief of the International Department Hyung Sun Lee visited our city (Las Vegas) and met with the instructors in the area that have been promoting students through the Kukkiwon to announce the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System (KOMS). Among the goals of the program is to classify and enroll dojangs, standardize curriculum, facilitate communication between overseas (from the Korean perspective) dojangs and Kukkiwon and among KOMS dojangs worldwide and to assist KOMS dojangs in promotion of TKD events, seminars and internal growth. This program is to address the "individualization" of  instruction outside of Korea that is degrading TKD and inhibiting growth. So, yes they are checking up on instructors and they are not happy.




That isn't the explanation of the KOMS program that I was given. 

The thing to understand about President Kang is that he comes from and leads the smallest Kwan by far of the original five. There are literally thousands of dojang in the Seoul area alone; Song Moo Kwan has 16. 

Perhaps the Song Moo Kwan has higher quality than the other Kwans. I don't know. But what I can tell you is that if he tries to enforce any sort of radical and overly strict standardization outside of Korea, then instructors will rebel and stop processing through the Kukkiwon. I think this program will be the downfall of President Kang if he insists on going through with this. He certainly does not have support for this at the Board of Directors level, because no one except maybe President Kang feels that cutting off international instructors is a good way to globalize Taekwondo and make it grow. 

I can and have passed every test that the Kukkiwon has given me so I don't really feel threatened by this new policy by President Kang. But from a global perspective, it really is short sighted to cut your nose off to spite your face. 

I sincerely hope that he does push on and try to force this through internationally. The harder he pushes on this, the greater the objections with be, and the faster he will be out. the Kukkiwon bylaws state that the Chairman of the Board, with a majority of board members, can remove the sitting Kukkiwon president at any time.


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## msmitht (Feb 11, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Please give me the names ofd the school inLas Vegas and which instructor was visited because I know alot of them and none of them had a visit from the KKW? I know because I just got off the phone with one and said he has heard nothing about this. There is absolutelt noway they can control over 100,000 KKW schools and affiliates school over here in America, Sorry but I just cannot see how they can or would manage such a feet...:erg:



First of all it is spelled feat.
I will personally be having dinner with the kkw president on Sunday. There will be about ten of us at the dinner, all 2nd and 1st class instructors. There was some insinuation that we will be forming a group/committee to go around conducting tests and evaluations. They will also no longer be allowing instructors to promote students to poom/dan unless they have passed the kkw fic. Don't think that will start til next year though. Get ready, get informed or get out
I personally would love to be part of quality control. Seen too many bad schools/teachers who only care about money and forget technique. The amount of travel suggested seems like a lot though...we shall see what transpires...


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## terryl965 (Feb 11, 2011)

msmitht said:


> First of all it is spelled feat.
> I will personally be having dinner with the kkw president on Sunday. There will be about ten of us at the dinner, all 2nd and 1st class instructors. There was some insinuation that we will be forming a group/committee to go around conducting tests and evaluations. They will also no longer be allowing instructors to promote students to poom/dan unless they have passed the kkw fic. Don't think that will start til next year though. Get ready, get informed or get out
> I personally would love to be part of quality control. Seen too many bad schools/teachers who only care about money and forget technique. The amount of travel suggested seems like a lot though...we shall see what transpires...


 
Thanks for my mishap on the spelling, secondly it would be great to make sure all KKW TKD schools are doing the right thing. The only problem would be is this it is so out of wrack with no control how do you suppose they would be able to send any quality amout of time making sure this gets done? USAT had a terrible time with that special promotion test they did what last year and the facts are they KKW only requires the basic for Dan requirement and with so many school adding to what they teach to make a solid curriculum. 

I personally try to stay on top of everything, what will they do really take away all these KKW certification from people who is not up to par, sorry just do not see that happening and I also do not see them demanding that people get up and do as they say or else. Maybe in Lorea this will work but to many people here would just get up and tell them to shove it and go about there business and the KKW would lose to much.

Like you said we shall see what happens but I cannot see how a small group will control so many schools and instructors. I did a quick reference search here in my little area and we have over 500 fourth dan or higher here in the metroplex, now multiply that by 100 and you could have upwards of over 50,000 instructor to look after. I just cannot see them making that many get into line after all these years.:asian:


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 11, 2011)

msmitht said:


> I personally would love to be part of quality control. Seen too many bad schools/teachers who only care about money and forget technique.


 
Besides making sure people perform KKW forms correctly what could they possibly require? (And really, if you're studying a particular style of martial arts is it too much to ask that you at least perform the forms correctly before being promoted to dan level?) By standardizing forms there will be a trickle down effect of standardizing individual techniques. 

The WTF standardized sparring rules and people all got on board with it because they wanted to cater to 1% of the students who think they have a shot at the Olympics. 



> The amount of travel suggested seems like a lot though...we shall see what transpires...


 
Perhaps regional commitees should be set up in larger countries. A single entity would suffice for a country the size of Korea or almost any of the European countries (most are like the size of Ohio). The U.S. is substantially bigger than that.

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Feb 11, 2011)

msmitht said:


> First of all it is spelled feat.
> I will personally be having dinner with the kkw president on Sunday. There will be about ten of us at the dinner, all 2nd and 1st class instructors. There was some insinuation that we will be forming a group/committee to go around conducting tests and evaluations. They will also no longer be allowing instructors to promote students to poom/dan unless they have passed the kkw fic. Don't think that will start til next year though. Get ready, get informed or get out
> I personally would love to be part of quality control. Seen too many bad schools/teachers who only care about money and forget technique. The amount of travel suggested seems like a lot though...we shall see what transpires...



Makes sense to me.  As a consumer, certification would be more valuable and appealing to me if it meant enforcement of a tightly defined curriculum along with high standards.


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## Carol (Feb 11, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Besides making sure people perform KKW forms correctly what could they possibly require?



Hot Chocolate machines?


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 11, 2011)

Carol said:


> Hot Chocolate machines?


 
Well, that is certainly one way to be *AWESOME*!!!

Pax,

Chris


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## Carol (Feb 11, 2011)

RonMarlow said:


> I don't know what I think about it, when my wife decides she will tell me what my opinion is.



:rofl:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 11, 2011)

Carol said:


> Hot Chocolate machines?


Why stop there?  I want an espresso bar in Every Kukki school!  With hot chocolate on the menu, of course.

Daniel


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## StudentCarl (Feb 11, 2011)

Seems to me that the way to go about this is with a published, progressive, slow implementation and a widely published set of specific standards:

1. Work from high dans downward, with successive levels added over a period of time. For example, 8th dans might be required to meet the standard by 2012, 7th dans by 2013, 6th by 2014, etc. This not only gives time to be successful, but gets leaders to lead before teaching, and sets up leadership by example. 

2. I'm still at gup level, and am not clear what is the exact published standard (if there is one). I'd like to see something along the lines of the book I have 'The Explanation of Taekwondo Poomsae' (with the translation cleaned up). Getting everybody on the same page first requires that there be a same page that we can all look at!

3. Is the standard to be only performance of poomsae? 

4. The other key is communicating why it is in the interest of grandmasters, masters, and schools to be onboard with this. Successful unity of effort requires unity of purpose. I would be interested to know if this is simply a top-down initiative or whether any effort has been made to gauge support for this. If you can develop a solid core of support, the fence-sitters are more likely to conform than if it's just imposed.


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## puunui (Feb 11, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Makes sense to me.  As a consumer, certification would be more valuable and appealing to me if it meant enforcement of a tightly defined curriculum along with high standards.




Is that how you see your dan certification, from the eyes of a consumer, something that you pay for and purchase?


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## troubleenuf (Feb 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> Is that how you see your dan certification, from the eyes of a consumer, something that you pay for and purchase?



How do you see it?


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## dancingalone (Feb 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> Is that how you see your dan certification, from the eyes of a consumer, something that you pay for and purchase?



Rightly or wrongly, that is how I see certification as offered by large martial arts organizations.  I see so often the arguments made here about transferability and acceptance, etc., for KKW certification.  Those are very much consumer-oriented benefits.  

It is only when you talk about individual things such as recognition in your instructor's eyes, that the focus turns to something else... And then we wouldn't be talking about transferability or acceptance, would we?

But if you're asking me on a personal level, I don't really value 'certification' the same way I think most people on the TKD forum do.  My karate dan certification is a handwritten document in Japanese (perhaps even the Okinawan language/dialect) by my teacher.  It merely states that I have been given a certain status by him.  It would mean nothing to anyone else outside the circles my teacher is associated with, yet I treasure it above almost anything else I own.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 11, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Rightly or wrongly, that is how I see certification as offered by large martial arts organizations.  I see so often the arguments made here about transferability and acceptance, etc., for KKW certification.  Those are very much consumer-oriented benefits.
> 
> It is only when you talk about individual things such as recognition in your instructor's eyes, that the focus turns to something else... And then we wouldn't be talking about transferability or acceptance, would we?
> 
> But if you're asking me on a personal level, I don't really value 'certification' the same way I think most people on the TKD forum do.  My karate dan certification is a handwritten document in Japanese (perhaps even the Okinawan language/dialect) by my teacher.  It merely states that I have been given a certain status by him.  It would mean nothing to anyone else outside the circles my teacher is associated with, yet I treasure it above almost anything else I own.


I have to agree with all of that. A certification is a personal thing. I too, have a handwritten pice of paper as my only certification from my karate days, and to be honest I believe most people would laugh if they saw it compared to some of the 'over the top' certs that get handed out these days, but to me it is invaluable, it was a good school , with very high standards and to me that piece of paper is worth its weight in gold despite the fact it would mean nothing to anybody else.


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## Archtkd (Feb 11, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Makes sense to me. As a consumer, certification would be more valuable and appealing to me if it meant enforcement of a tightly defined curriculum along with high standards.


 
Sounds logical, but the problem is that the biggest consumer Taekwondo providers don't give a hoot about the Kukkiwon and will never agree to any policing by the organization. Also many consumers don't seem to care about standards. Here in the  Show Me State, for example,  many big dojangs -- including and maybe even particularly those owned by Korean/Korean American GMs and Masters originally certified by the Kukkiwon -- no longer recommend Kukkiwon certificates for their students.


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## Archtkd (Feb 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> The thing to understand about President Kang is that he comes from and leads the smallest Kwan by far of the original five. There are literally thousands of dojang in the Seoul area alone; Song Moo Kwan has 16.


 
The issue of who belongs to what Kwan and Kukkiwon leadership has come up in other posts and it sounds as though you are saying GM Kang's ability to lead the Kukkiwon is hindered by his Kwan leadership experience. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but are you suggesting that Kwans and their size still matters, even though you are a strong advocate of Kukki Taekwondo unification? 

Along those lines can there really be an untainted Kukkiwon leader today, who has broad support, especially here in the U.S? Also, who, in your opinion, would have been the most suitable choice for president of the organization after GM Un Young Kim. Uhm Woon Kyu, the former head of your Chung Do Kwan, the most active Kwan today, didn't make headway. Seung Wan Lee, the head of the Jidokwan, another big kwan, couldn't survive the brutal politics of the Kukkiwon and Korea in general.


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## puunui (Feb 12, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> How do you see it?



I've already said numerous times.


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## puunui (Feb 12, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> The issue of who belongs to what Kwan and Kukkiwon leadership has come up in other posts and it sounds as though you are saying GM Kang's ability to lead the Kukkiwon is hindered by his Kwan leadership experience.



Kwan leadership or just the mentality and attitude of his particular kwan. It's a small kwan used to doing things differently than a larger kwan.




Archtkd said:


> Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but are you suggesting that Kwans and their size still matters, even though you are a strong advocate of Kukki Taekwondo unification?



Kwan membership is relevant at President Kang's level, since he grew up in a Kwan environment and it is a part of this thinking. People of his generation naturally see another of the same or higher level as coming from this or that kwan, and all that goes with that. 





Archtkd said:


> Along those lines can there really be an untainted Kukkiwon leader today, who has broad support, especially here in the U.S?



I don't know what you mean by "untainted". 




Archtkd said:


> Also, who, in your opinion, would have been the most suitable choice for president of the organization after GM Un Young Kim.



I would have liked to have seen GM LEE Seung Wan given the opportunity to carry out his vision. I think there is a chance that that might still happen.




Archtkd said:


> Uhm Woon Kyu, the former head of your Chung Do Kwan, the most active Kwan today, didn't make headway.



GM UHM Woon Kyu made LOTS of headway. In fact, he has been the primary at the Kukkiwon since almost the very beginning. We talk about the big three leaders, but actually it was the big two: GM Uhm and GM LEE Chong Woo. How Dr. Kim did it was to leave the Taekwondo parts to Taekwondoin; for the Kukkiwon GM Uhm took the lead while at the WTF, GM LEE Chong Woo took the lead. Make sense, since GM Uhm and the Chung Do Kwan (through GM LEE Won Kuk) had a primary interest in the development of poomsae, and the Jidokwan was the leader in kyorugi. So you statement about GM Uhm is incorrect. The reason why GM Uhm was the natural successor for Dr. Kim at the Kukkiwon was because he was doing the job all these years anyway. That's why no one questioned or was surprised when he became the second Kukkiwon president. 




Archtkd said:


> Seung Wan Lee, the head of the Jidokwan, another big kwan, couldn't survive the brutal politics of the Kukkiwon and Korea in general.



GM Lee has the majority support of Taekwondoin; however, he advocated that the Kukkiwon remain independent of Korean government control, for a variety of reasons, and that is the real reason why they removed him.


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## puunui (Feb 12, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Sounds logical, but the problem is that the biggest consumer Taekwondo providers don't give a hoot about the Kukkiwon and will never agree to any policing by the organization.




That's right, it's the big schools that say that the certificate signed by the instructor is more valuable. They are the ones that don't wish to send over the money to Korea and instead wish to pocket all of the testing fees.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> That's right, it's the big schools that say that the certificate signed by the instructor is more valuable. They are the ones that don't wish to send over the money to Korea and instead wish to pocket all of the testing fees.


Thats one theory, but again you are generalising. I have no doubt that some schools/GM's think this way but you shouldnt assume that 'every' big school that says their cert is more valuable because "they dont wish to send money to korea and instead pocket it themself". I admire your devotion to your cause but you have to stop generalising. Many big schools who say this give the student the option for a kukki cert at only the cost it will cost to get one, thus not making a cent out of the kukki cert. And many students actually value a certificate with their own GM's org on it. I know you find this hard to believe, but even if I had a kukki cert, the cert given to me by my GM would take pride of place over the kukki one and I am certainly not alone in this way of thinking. I was at work the other day and met 2 guys who are instructors at rhee tkd and we spoke for a long time. Their devotion to the art is second to none and they were a wealth of knowlege on all things tkd, and they too expressed how much value they place in certification from their org over everything else. I think you need to get out more and talk to more people who train at large unaffiliated orgs and you will realise that we are not all a bunch of brainwashed zombies hanging on every word from our GM. We simply learn from someone with exeptional ability and they teach and nurture us over a long period and when they can look at us and see we are worthy to wear a black belt in their system that means more to us than any piece of paper stamped by someone who has never seen us actually do anything.


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## Archtkd (Feb 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> GM UHM Woon Kyu made LOTS of headway. In fact, he has been the primary at the Kukkiwon since almost the very beginning. We talk about the big three leaders, but actually it was the big two: GM Uhm and GM LEE Chong Woo. How Dr. Kim did it was to leave the Taekwondo parts to Taekwondoin; for the Kukkiwon GM Uhm took the lead while at the WTF, GM LEE Chong Woo took the lead. Make sense, since GM Uhm and the Chung Do Kwan (through GM LEE Won Kuk) had a primary interest in the development of poomsae, and the Jidokwan was the leader in kyorugi. So you statement about GM Uhm is incorrect. The reason why GM Uhm was the natural successor for Dr. Kim at the Kukkiwon was because he was doing the job all these years anyway. That's why no one questioned or was surprised when he became the second Kukkiwon president.


 
Thanks for your perspective and insight. The impression I got was that GM Uhm was  very good and effective from a martial arts point of view, but he didn't appear to have the ability to hold the political and admisntrative side of things at the Kukkiwon together, particularly in the global sense.  His successor GM Lee appeared to have a better grasp of running and growing the organization, but I have always thought his other political and business interests attracted distractions that accelerated his ouster.


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## puunui (Feb 12, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thats one theory, but again you are generalising. I have no doubt that some schools/GM's think this way but you shouldnt assume that 'every' big school that says their cert is more valuable because "they dont wish to send money to korea and instead pocket it themself". I admire your devotion to your cause but you have to stop generalising. Many big schools who say this give the student the option for a kukki cert at only the cost it will cost to get one, thus not making a cent out of the kukki cert. And many students actually value a certificate with their own GM's org on it. I know you find this hard to believe, but even if I had a kukki cert, the cert given to me by my GM would take pride of place over the kukki one and I am certainly not alone in this way of thinking. I was at work the other day and met 2 guys who are instructors at rhee tkd and we spoke for a long time. Their devotion to the art is second to none and they were a wealth of knowlege on all things tkd, and they too expressed how much value they place in certification from their org over everything else. I think you need to get out more and talk to more people who train at large unaffiliated orgs and you will realise that we are not all a bunch of brainwashed zombies hanging on every word from our GM. We simply learn from someone with exeptional ability and they teach and nurture us over a long period and when they can look at us and see we are worthy to wear a black belt in their system that means more to us than any piece of paper stamped by someone who has never seen us actually do anything.



Thanks for making my point, even if you probably don't realize it. I have friends who have big schools and don't give out Kukkiwon certification to their students. They all say the same thing, that they rather pocket all the money themselves rather give it out, and they all sell the idea that their dojang certificate is more valuable than one signed by someone who doesn't know them. And all their students sound like you.... defending that dojang certificate to the bitter end, with the possible exception of those who get out more and realize what the Kukkiwon is and how "valuable" its certification is, especially when they get outside of the small pond and into the larger world.


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## Archtkd (Feb 13, 2011)

msmitht said:


> First of all it is spelled feat.
> I will personally be having dinner with the kkw president on Sunday. There will be about ten of us at the dinner, all 2nd and 1st class instructors. There was some insinuation that we will be forming a group/committee to go around conducting tests and evaluations. They will also no longer be allowing instructors to promote students to poom/dan unless they have passed the kkw fic. Don't think that will start til next year though. Get ready, get informed or get out
> I personally would love to be part of quality control. Seen too many bad schools/teachers who only care about money and forget technique. The amount of travel suggested seems like a lot though...we shall see what transpires...


 
Kindly provide us with a report about what is discussed at the dinner. Also do you know if the KKW pres plan to visit other parts of the country, especially the Midwest?


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## leadleg (Feb 13, 2011)

I wish the KKW would visit or send an instructor by my school!


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## terryl965 (Feb 13, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I wish the KKW would visit or send an instructor by my school!


 
Me too, I just cannot see how they could possibly make it to everyone that teaches KKW TKD.


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## leadleg (Feb 13, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Me too, I just cannot see how they could possibly make it to everyone that teaches KKW TKD.


 Yeah it would be tough, i would imagine that they will enlist American masters to carry out some of this. Now that would be scary, as some of these masters might be your competitors and abuse may happen. 
Of course this is only speculation.
 I do know that at every KKW event I have been to, poomse seminar in SF,put on by cuta, the special testing by usat and the instructor seminar in Chicago put on by the ustc, the KKW officials and instructors were appalled by some of the techniques done by some of the school owners, and BB's. 
I am not surprised that they feel the need to do something, maybe they will only attempt to correct schools with over 100 students. 
Possibly they will think it suffice to let only those with instructor liscenses promote. I think most owners would be willing to take the course.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Rightly or wrongly, that is how I see certification as offered by large martial arts organizations. I see so often the arguments made here about transferability and acceptance, etc., for KKW certification. Those are very much consumer-oriented benefits.
> 
> It is only when you talk about individual things such as recognition in your instructor's eyes, that the focus turns to something else... And then we wouldn't be talking about transferability or acceptance, would we?
> 
> But if you're asking me on a personal level, I don't really value 'certification' the same way I think most people on the TKD forum do. My karate dan certification is a handwritten document in Japanese (perhaps even the Okinawan language/dialect) by my teacher. It merely states that I have been given a certain status by him. It would mean nothing to anyone else outside the circles my teacher is associated with, yet I treasure it above almost anything else I own.


Good points! 

Though I think that that organizational certification goes beyond consumer benefit. 

When I attended an acredited (or whatever the operative term is) high school, I received credit, and ultimately, a diploma. That credit and diploma are accepted anywhere in the uS. If my family had moved the summer after my sophomore year in high school, I would not not have had to repeat my freshmen and sophomore years at a new school. Once I graduated, my diploma is recognized by any higher learning institution because the high school I attended was accredited or certified, or whatever, in some way. 

Parents who home school also have a means of certifying that what they do is actually schoolwork that meets the standards of the educational system so that when their kids turn eighteen and want to go to college, they aren't told that they have no diploma.

Now, suppose I never attended school and my grandfather taught me in the back yard, never doing whatever one needs to do as a home schooler to allow me to have earned recognized credit. He is the one who taught and quizzed me on the material, so I could easily say, 'only his approval matters. I don't need the approval of an outside organization that doesn't know me.'

Well, if I chose to attend college, I'd have to take a placement test and then take a ton of base classes in order for me to get to where the college feels that I should be before taking any of the classes that I might want to take. The college may deny, and I may have to go to a community college, where I'd still have to take the base courses.

If I go to look for work, I will be told that I need a high school diploma. Not having one, I'd have to go out and get a GED.

Now, I think that it is important to note that at no point did I ever see myself as a consumer when I was in school. I was a student. Technically, everyone paying for a service can be classified as a consumer, and even public schools involve you paying for a service. People just don't notice because they pay through their taxes rather than by direct fee. When you go to the doctor however, and do pay by direct fee, you are a patient, and few patients think of themselves as consumers.

Certainly, lack of organizational certification in martial arts does not carry the same level of consequence that lack of a recognized H/S diploma does. It does, however, protect the student's investment to a degree.

As for the 'my master's certificate is far more important to me than some foreign organization's certificate',well, I cannot speak for karate or other arts, but with the KKW, that Kukki cert means not only that your master with whom you have trained has certified you, it meas that he or she was willing to recommend you to the Kukkiwon.

Most don't change high schools, but some do. Likewise, most taekwondoin never encounter an issue where rank portability is an issue, but some do. So yes, most taekwondoin would likely be unaffected one way or the other by Kukki certification or a lack thereof. But some are.

So while I agree that an organizational cert provides a nice consumer benefit, that is a by product rather than the function. 

I think that students generally do not view themselves as consumers and usually are not going to great lengths to verify their instructor's credentials. I do think that *parents* of students are consumers and are the ones most impressed by stuff hanging on the walls in the office. 

Now, if I as a *taekwondo* student do think of myself as a consumer, *and* I am paying more than a hundred dollars for a BB test (many are more that three hundred), *and* my instructor holds Kukki rank high enough to get me Kukki certification, I'd consider myself shortchanged if all that I received was something that he had printed at Office Depot. Particularly if I'd been paying him for four years.  

Now, if the test cost less than fifty bucks, I won't complain, though I would hope that he would at least offer me the option.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Feb 14, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When I attended an acredited (or whatever the operative term is) high school, I received credit, and ultimately, a diploma.
> ...
> 
> Certainly, lack of organizational certification in martial arts does not carry the same level of consequence that lack of a recognized H/S diploma does. It does, however, protect the student's investment to a degree.



I appreciate the time you took to write this, but I don't think the academic accreditation analogy works.  Educational accreditation, at least for American colleges and universities, is overseen through various agencies under direction of the US Department of Education.  It's a national concern with governmental involvement at all levels, including funding, planning, implementation, and testing.

I don't see the same scenario playing out in TKD in the US.  The US government has no qualitative concern over TKD ranks or curricula.  To them, an ATA certification has exactly the same level of official governmental recognition (that is to say none) as a KKW or ITF degree.

You are more or less talking about recognition by private groups or private citizens which is fine and good, but hardly the same thing as so-called 'regional accreditation' in college education, the gold standard by which all US degree-granting institutions are judged by.  In other words, certification is important because we choose to make it important, not because it is intrinsically.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> As for the 'my master's certificate is far more important to me than some foreign organization's certificate',well, I cannot speak for karate or other arts, but with the KKW, that Kukki cert means not only that your master with whom you have trained has certified you, it meas that he or she was willing to recommend you to the Kukkiwon.
> 
> Most don't change high schools, but some do. Likewise, most taekwondoin never encounter an issue where rank portability is an issue, but some do. So yes, most taekwondoin would likely be unaffected one way or the other by Kukki certification or a lack thereof. But some are.
> 
> So while I agree that an organizational cert provides a nice consumer benefit, that is a by product rather than the function.



True.  Yet when we talk about the benefits of KKW certification, this is ALWAYS one of the first points trotted out.  It seems to me that these consumer benefits take up an inordinate amount of space in the minds of the proponents, and by extension lessening the importance of the others.  My thought is that if we value something foremost, we would probably talk about it foremost.

And given all the talk about unification and such, I really do think many in the large organization camp believe the KKW as an entity is MORE IMPORTANT than individual relationships between teachers and students.  Obviously, I can't agree with that.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that students generally do not view themselves as consumers and usually are not going to great lengths to verify their instructor's credentials. I do think that *parents* of students are consumers and are the ones most impressed by stuff hanging on the walls in the office.
> 
> Now, if I as a *taekwondo* student do think of myself as a consumer, *and* I am paying more than a hundred dollars for a BB test (many are more that three hundred), *and* my instructor holds Kukki rank high enough to get me Kukki certification, I'd consider myself shortchanged if all that I received was something that he had printed at Office Depot. Particularly if I'd been paying him for four years.
> 
> Now, if the test cost less than fifty bucks, I won't complain, though I would hope that he would at least offer me the option.



Do you pay money for learning TKD?  Would your teacher continue to teach you if you didn't pay him?  

Those questions would probably reveal if you are a consumer and your teacher a 'merchant' or not.  I don't really care about the distinction myself.  You can learn excellent martial arts from both commercial and nonprofit schools.  But undeniably, there's a consumer/commercial attitude in all this when we talk about certs and their value beyond teacher-to-student recognition.


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## puunui (Feb 14, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I wish the KKW would visit or send an instructor by my school!



Why?


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## puunui (Feb 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Do you pay money for learning TKD?  Would your teacher continue to teach you if you didn't pay him?




Other than the modest fee for Kukkiwon instructional seminars, no I do not pay for learning Taekwondo. And yes, my teachers would continue to teach me even if I didn't pay them, which I don't.


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## puunui (Feb 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I don't see the same scenario playing out in TKD in the US.  The US government has no qualitative concern over TKD ranks or curricula.  To them, an ATA certification has exactly the same level of official governmental recognition (that is to say none) as a KKW or ITF degree.



Not necessarily. If you wish to participate at the Olympic Games in Taekwondo, you are required to hold a Kukkiwon poom or dan certification. The Olympic Movement in the United States is governed by the Olympic Sports Act, which is federal law.




dancingalone said:


> And given all the talk about unification and such, I really do think many in the large organization camp believe the KKW as an entity is MORE IMPORTANT than individual relationships between teachers and students.  Obviously, I can't agree with that.



I don't agree with that either. My relationship with my teachers is the most important aspect of my martial arts experience, and Kukkiwon certification is a direct and tangible aspect of that relationship, since it was my teachers who created the Kukkiwon in the first place and sacrificed their own personal kwan ambitions in order to unify Taekwondo.


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## leadleg (Feb 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> Why?


 I am always inspired by the KKW instructors, I wish all my students could experience them in action. Also it would not cost me anything to interact with the KKW and that would be unusual


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## puunui (Feb 14, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I am always inspired by the KKW instructors, I wish all my students could experience them in action. Also it would not cost me anything to interact with the KKW and that would be unusual




You could host a Kukkiwon Instructor Course seminar in your area, and I am sure before and/or after the seminar, the Kukkiwon instructors would be happy to spend time with your students.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> And given all the talk about unification and such, I really do think many in the large organization camp believe the KKW as an entity is MORE IMPORTANT than individual relationships between teachers and students. Obviously, I can't agree with that.


Do they really think that?  Or is that a conclusion that you are drawing?

I don't personally think that the KKW as an entity is more important than individual relationships between teachers and students.  But I do think that if you teach taekwondo and have a Kukki sadan or higher, you should be issuing Kukki certs.

The relationship is separate from the certificate or the body that issues the certificate. 
 A school certificate is not my relationship with my instructor.  It is a certificate that says that states that I passed a test that was conducted in that school.  

An organizational certificate is not my relationship with my instructor.  It is a certificate that says that states that I passed a test that was conducted by a school or instructor that it either part of or certified by the organization.  

If the school is not part of an organization and the instructor is not affiliated with any organization within the art that you are learning from him or her, then the question of one vs. the other is moot.  

If he or she is certified by an organization within the same art *and* is holds a high enough grade in that organization to issue dan certs (and is in good standing), then he or she _should_ be issuing dan certs from that organization. 

If the instructor simply lacks the grade to issue his or her own certificates, he or she should ask the instructor who certified them if they would be willing to come to his or her students' dan gradings (this assumes a good relationship between the instructor and the instructor's master and that the instructor's master is aware and appoves of their pupil taking on students of their own).

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Feb 14, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Please give me the names ofd the school inLas Vegas and which instructor was visited because I know alot of them and none of them had a visit from the KKW? I know because I just got off the phone with one and said he has heard nothing about this. There is absolutelt noway they can control over 100,000 KKW schools and affiliates school over here in America, Sorry but I just cannot see how they can or would manage such a feet...:erg:



Terry the president of KKW was in Las Vegas as Master Marlow stated.  @ World TKD my kids train there get regular visits from KKW Officials but they are more social than inspections.


They love Vegas!!!!!!


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## puunui (Feb 14, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Thanks for your perspective and insight. The impression I got was that GM Uhm was  very good and effective from a martial arts point of view, but he didn't appear to have the ability to hold the political and admisntrative side of things at the Kukkiwon together, particularly in the global sense.




Where did you get that impression of GM Uhm?


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## puunui (Feb 14, 2011)

Gorilla said:


> T  @ World TKD my kids train there get regular visits from KKW Officials but they are more social than inspections. They love Vegas!!!!!!



World Taekwondo, is that the school run by Master Joe Bennett?


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## Gorilla (Feb 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> World Taekwondo, is that the school run by Master Joe Bennett?


Yes


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## terryl965 (Feb 14, 2011)

Gorilla said:


> Terry the president of KKW was in Las Vegas as Master Marlow stated. @ World TKD my kids train there get regular visits from KKW Officials but they are more social than inspections.
> 
> 
> They love Vegas!!!!!!


 
Ok but like you said it was more of a social visit, not there to critique or to give insight on certain techs. I guess what I am trying to understand how are they going to change what people have been teaching for all these years and get everybody on the good ship lollipop. Thank you for the info.


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## dancingalone (Feb 14, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do they really think that?  Or is that a conclusion that you are drawing?
> 
> I don't personally think that the KKW as an entity is more important than individual relationships between teachers and students.  But I do think that if you teach taekwondo and have a Kukki sadan or higher, you should be issuing Kukki certs.
> 
> ...



Just a feeling I have gained over the years from reading MT.  I could be entirely off base.  Then again, if I am right, it's hardly something anyone would admit to.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Just a feeling I have gained over the years from reading MT. I could be entirely off base. Then again, if I am right, it's hardly something anyone would admit to.


I think that it is fair to say that some, perhaps many, believe that a Kukkiwon certificate is superior to a dojang only certificate, but again, that is distinct from the student/teacher relationship.  Now, the certificate does not imply that the holder is in any way superior, but the certificate itself allows access to things that a dojang certificate does not.  

As I have said previously, if you are practicing Kukkiwon material at a school you attend, and the instructor is a Kukkiwon sadan or higher, then he or she should be issuing Kukkiwon certificates.  That would include schools meeting the above criteria teaching palgwe pumse.  As Glenn likes to say, give the same certification that you received.

To a great degree, the value of an organizational certificate varries from person to person, based on their goals.  If all that I want is to earn a black belt and then move on (something that many people do), then a dojang dan is as good as an organizational dan.  Sometimes, though, peoples' goals change and they find themselves in a position where an organizational cert would be of benefit.  So,* if* you train in a school that has organizational affiliation, you should *at least* have access to the organizaitonal cert, though frankly, I believe that schools with organizational affiliation should be issuing organizational certifictes.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Feb 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that it is fair to say that some, perhaps many, believe that a Kukkiwon certificate is superior to a dojang only certificate, *but again, that is distinct from the student/teacher relationship*.  Now, the certificate does not imply that the holder is in any way superior, but the certificate itself allows access to things that a dojang certificate does not.



I think you're assuming the two things never come into conflict based on your writings in this thread.  They can and do, perhaps even frequently.  Suppose a student's teacher decides to sever relations with the KKW.  This has occurred before, regardless of whatever semantics we might choose to label the situation.  It occurred in the early days of taekwondo when some of Hwang Kee's students left him for the KTA.  

The student in such a case then has a choice to make.  Continue on with his teacher, accepting that any further rank will be in-house only, or to break with his teacher for the organization.  I would imagine most would elect to go with their teacher, but I could conceivably see some students, particularly if they have attained high rank already, choose to continue to advance with the organization.  And if so, they would be holding the org as higher than than their own teacher. 

This is a scenario that has repeated itself across JKA karate and Aikido with the Aikikai/Ki Society split.  No martial art is immune from it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I think you're assuming the two things never come into conflict based on your writings in this thread. They can and do, perhaps even frequently. Suppose a student's teacher decides to sever relations with the KKW. This has occurred before, regardless of whatever semantics we might choose to label the situation. It occurred in the early days of taekwondo when some of Hwang Kee's students left him for the KTA.
> 
> The student in such a case then has a choice to make. Continue on with his teacher, accepting that any further rank will be in-house only, or to break with his teacher for the organization. I would imagine most would elect to go with their teacher, but I could conceivably see some students, particularly if they have attained high rank already, choose to continue to advance with the organization. And if so, they would be holding the org as higher than than their own teacher.
> 
> This is a scenario that has repeated itself across JKA karate and Aikido with the Aikikai/Ki Society split. No martial art is immune from it.


I was referring mainly to posters on MT, though I absolutely agree with your post.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Feb 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> Is that how you see your dan certification, from  the eyes of a consumer, something that you pay for and purchase?


I know this question was not directed at me, but I am waiting at work  for a test to be ran so I thought I would put in my $.02 worth...I have already explained my outlook of having a KKW cert in another thread so I won't rehash it here.  However, when running a school you have to think like a consumer.  Why should I care if this instructor has a piece of paper on the wall...so does the instructor down the street.  What's the big deal?  

A new student doesn't have that attachment that someone like myself has to it.  They are new so they need to be taught the value of it past being a piece of paper.  I liken it to having your certification of passing the bar exam or even certification of passing you specialty in medicine.  You show the consumer that you have undergone and passed a strict set of criteria to be certified in what you do and you try to get them excited in training to try and reach that same goal of certification.

I don't like the idea of someone stepping in from KKW to dictate how I train my 1st - 3rd dans.  The KKW Instructor Course that they set up is what I strive to be in line with and as long as my students or myself meet the criteria, that should be all they need to know.

As for people who would argue "how can you tell someone how just passed vs someone who did excellent"  I just simply ask this "What do you call a man who finished dead last in medical school?"....Doctor.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Suppose a student's teacher decides to sever relations with the KKW.  This has occurred before, regardless of whatever semantics we might choose to label the situation.  It occurred in the early days of taekwondo when some of Hwang Kee's students left him for the KTA.



Depending on who you listen to, and their perspective, but it was the majority of Moo Duk Kwan members, an overwhelming majority really, that chose to go with the flow and be a part of the KTA. The Moo Duk Kwan was different from other kwans in that it was run by a Board of Directors who set policy and voted on what to do. GM HWANG Kee was outvoted and after that, he chose to break off from the Moo Duk Kwan. You can get part of this even in GM Hwang's own books such as the History of the Moo Duk Kwan, which describes the organizational structure. The reason why it was set up with a Board of Directors (which more than one pioneer said was very progressive for the time) was because GM Hwang was only slightly senior in experience to his students. It is similar to what I believe several members of MT have going in their own club. Also, other Moo Duk Kwan members felt that GM Hwang was not their teacher, that they learned more from people such as GM KIM Ki Whang, a Karate dan holder who learned in Japan.




dancingalone said:


> The student in such a case then has a choice to make.  Continue on with his teacher, accepting that any further rank will be in-house only, or to break with his teacher for the organization.  I would imagine most would elect to go with their teacher, but I could conceivably see some students, particularly if they have attained high rank already, choose to continue to advance with the organization.  And if so, they would be holding the org as higher than than their own teacher.



Or they could remain with their teacher and still belong to the organization. 




dancingalone said:


> This is a scenario that has repeated itself across JKA karate and Aikido with the Aikikai/Ki Society split.  No martial art is immune from it.



Aikido was my first formal martial art that I studied, so I have an interest in it. My grandfather signed me up, and my teacher was our mailman, who was his friend. I remember speaking with some Aikido people from that era and they said that the split between teacher (Tohei Sensei) vs. organization (Aikikai) was extremely bitter. People still harbor ill feelings regarding that, even though it has been almost 40 years. Some of the ones who went with the organization did so because they objected to Tohei Sensei's personal habits and lifestyle.


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## dancingalone (Feb 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> Or they could remain with their teacher and still belong to the organization.



I can't see that being an option in most cases where the teacher has split off.  I guess stranger things have happened though.



puunui said:


> Aikido was my first formal martial art that I studied, so I have an interest in it. My grandfather signed me up, and my teacher was our mailman, who was his friend. I remember speaking with some Aikido people from that era and they said that the split between teacher (Tohei Sensei) vs. organization (Aikikai) was extremely bitter. People still harbor ill feelings regarding that, even though it has been almost 40 years. Some of the ones who went with the organization did so because they objected to Tohei Sensei's personal habits and lifestyle.



It's a crazy subject.  You'd think people would have moved on by now, but I guess some still are angry over the split.  <shrugs>  I have friends who are in the Ki Society.  Honestly their aikido is not so different from mine.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2011)

It was a very difficult time. The fight really was between Tohei Sensei, who was the Chief Instructor and the face of Aikido in the eyes of many, vs. Kisshomaru Sensei, the son of the founder, who had the name but perhaps not the personality or ability of Tohei Sensei. So that one was a real difficult choice. I think the only difference they tell me is the Ki training, keep one point, keep weight underside, etc. Ki Society seems to be more generous with promotions, at least here. Of the people who started in the early 50's, the highest Aikikai dan is 7th Dan, while there are several 8th and 9th Dan from the Ki Society. That is another source of resentment and bitterness amongst the two groups.


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## dancingalone (Feb 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> It was a very difficult time. The fight really was between Tohei Sensei, who was the Chief Instructor and the face of Aikido in the eyes of many, vs. Kisshomaru Sensei, the son of the founder, who had the name but perhaps not the personality or ability of Tohei Sensei. So that one was a real difficult choice.



Some koryu arts are able to minimize the inevitable conflict when a founder passes away by keeping the head of the art position as a hereditary position.  Meanwhile the chief instructorship could certain be awarded to a non-family member.  




puunui said:


> I think the only difference they tell me is the Ki training, keep one point, keep weight underside, etc. Ki Society seems to be more generous with promotions, at least here. Of the people who started in the early 50's, the highest Aikikai dan is 7th Dan, while there are several 8th and 9th Dan from the Ki Society. That is another source of resentment and bitterness amongst the two groups.



I've heard that too.  There's an old slander floating around that you should demote Ki Society people by 2-3 dan ranks to arrive at their true level.  I don't think that's true today and I was likely wasn't around when it first started.  I've always thought these aikido political quarrels were unseemly for an art that is supposed to be about peaceful mediation of conflict.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I've always thought these aikido political quarrels were unseemly for an art that is supposed to be about peaceful mediation of conflict.




The Honolulu Aikikai headquarters dojo is a short 6-7 minute street drive from my house, and I was thinking about starting up again (sometimes it's good to be a beginner and put on a white belt again). So I went to watch a class and ended up speaking to one of the senior instructor, who has been training 55-60 years and was a 7th Dan. I asked him when was he going to get promoted and his face sort of went down and he said that he is maxed out at 7th Dan. I thought maybe it was because he was channeling some dark side energy and they didn't want to promote him because of that. Then I went to a Ki Society school which is about 8 minutes away and he felt a little sith as well. He had higher dan rank, but there was something funny about the club and the students, who were seemed to be afraid of the instructor. I ended up not joining either because of that. Maybe it was me and the vibe I gave them, I don't know. I always thought Aikido was supposed to be cooperative and peaceful, but these instructors had something else going on. oh well I guess it wasn't meant to be.


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## dancingalone (Feb 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> The Honolulu Aikikai headquarters dojo is a short 6-7 minute street drive from my house, and I was thinking about starting up again (sometimes it's good to be a beginner and put on a white belt again). So I went to watch a class and ended up speaking to one of the senior instructor, who has been training 55-60 years and was a 7th Dan. I asked him when was he going to get promoted and his face sort of went down and he said that he is maxed out at 7th Dan. I thought maybe it was because he was channeling some dark side energy and they didn't want to promote him because of that. Then I went to a Ki Society school which is about 8 minutes away and he felt a little sith as well. He had higher dan rank, but there was something funny about the club and the students, who were seemed to be afraid of the instructor. I ended up not joining either because of that. Maybe it was me and the vibe I gave them, I don't know. I always thought Aikido was supposed to be cooperative and peaceful, but these instructors had something else going on. oh well I guess it wasn't meant to be.



It's always an interesting time when hapkido/jujutsu/daito-ryu people train with aikido people.  The feel of the technique can be very different even though outwardly they look to be the same.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It's always an interesting time when hapkido/jujutsu/daito-ryu people train with aikido people.  The feel of the technique can be very different even though outwardly they look to be the same.




Yes, feel is the key in arts like Hapkido and Aikido. You can almost instantly tell where someone is by the way they feel. BJJ is the same way. To me, the more forcing, the lower the skill level.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I think you're assuming the two things never come into conflict based on your writings in this thread.  They can and do, perhaps even frequently.  Suppose a student's teacher decides to sever relations with the KKW.  This has occurred before, regardless of whatever semantics we might choose to label the situation.  It occurred in the early days of taekwondo when some of Hwang Kee's students left him for the KTA.
> 
> The student in such a case then has a choice to make.  Continue on with his teacher, accepting that any further rank will be in-house only, or to break with his teacher for the organization.  I would imagine most would elect to go with their teacher, but I could conceivably see some students, particularly if they have attained high rank already, choose to continue to advance with the organization.  And if so, they would be holding the org as higher than than their own teacher.
> 
> This is a scenario that has repeated itself across JKA karate and Aikido with the Aikikai/Ki Society split.  No martial art is immune from it.


Absolutely spot on, and this is exactly what happened where I train. Our GM ceased involvement with the kukki at a time where he had literally thousands of black belts, many were 5th dan or higher. Those students had a choice to make, continuing with our GM while knowing full well that any further advancement through the kukki would not happen OR leave and break ties with their GM. You said in your post that most would elect to go with their teacher and that is exactly what happened at our club and I dare say most students would stay with the guy who has instructed them for the last 25 years. Many of the students see the GM as a second father, my original instructor (6th dan) had his father die when he was 13 years old and our GM took him under his wing and became a father to him, and I cant blame him one bit for choosing to stay with our GM rather than leave so he can continue getting pieces of paper to hang on his wall. When I go to his house he has our GM's certs up on his wall and they are to him, his most treasured possesions and would scoff if anyone asked him if he is disappointed about no longer getting a kukki cert.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Absolutely spot on, and this is exactly what happened where I train. Our GM ceased involvement with the kukki at a time where he had literally thousands of black belts, many were 5th dan or higher. Those students had a choice to make, continuing with our GM while knowing full well that any further advancement through the kukki would not happen OR leave and break ties with their GM.



Wrong, it is NOT spot on, because your GM still issues Kukkiwon certification if the students desire it. So there is no choice for the students to make regarding leaving or staying with your GM if they wanted Kukkiwon certification.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> Wrong, it is NOT spot on, because your GM still issues Kukkiwon certification if the students desire it. So there is no choice for the students to make regarding leaving or staying with your GM if they wanted Kukkiwon certification.


He offers it if they want it but it never happens. I think most students back when he ceased affiliation would have realised there was a reason he left. He doesnt talk much about it, but I think its pretty obvious that if he was happy with the kukki he wouldnt have left. Realistically, they knew if they stayed with him there would be no more kukki promotions. The fact none of them have requested one tells me a lot in regards to this. My current instructor is a 7th dan (36 years of continuos training), yet I think he is only a 1st dan kukki, that speaks volumes.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> My current instructor is a 7th dan (36 years of continuos training), yet I think he is only a 1st dan kukki, that speaks volumes.



Yes it does speaks volumes, although probably not how you think. And that doesn't change the fact that it was NOT spot on, because your GM STILL issues Kukkiwon certification if anyone wants it, so there is no choice to be made regarding leaving and receiving Kukkiwon certification or staying and only having a dojang certificate. And for the last time, it is Kukki Taekwondo or Kukkiwon, NOT Kukki.


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## msmitht (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> He offers it if they want it but it never happens. I think most students back when he ceased affiliation would have realised there was a reason he left. He doesnt talk much about it, but I think its pretty obvious that if he was happy with the kukki he wouldnt have left. Realistically, they knew if they stayed with him there would be no more kukki promotions. The fact none of them have requested one tells me a lot in regards to this. My current instructor is a 7th dan (36 years of continuos training), yet I think he is only a 1st dan kukki, that speaks volumes.


What happens when your GM retires or passes away? There will be no one who can promote through the KKW unless they are 4th dan (plus master course/KOMS Member). And what about the higher dans? Who will promote them? If they dont want it then fine. But for those who do....
No one questioned my god friends rank until his GM passed away. Then he was left with 2 alternatives: Join some asssociation/GM that would recognize his rank/promote him (for a heavy fee) or strike out on his own.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> What happens when your GM retires or passes away? There will be no one who can promote through the KKW unless they are 4th dan (plus master course/KOMS Member). And what about the higher dans? Who will promote them? If they dont want it then fine. But for those who do....
> No one questioned my god friends rank until his GM passed away. Then he was left with 2 alternatives: Join some asssociation/GM that would recognize his rank/promote him (for a heavy fee) or strike out on his own.


No one in my club has been promoted through the kukkiwon in a long, long time, to be honest I think our GM would have forgotten the procedure Our GM is 74 and our highest ranking students are within a year of getting their 8th dans. Within 2 years we will have about 7 x8th dans by my calculations. We will also have about 20 x 7th dans and countless 5th and 6th dans, so basically we have heaps of people who could promote us within our club. We arent a kukki affiliated club and thus no one has aspirations to receive promotion through the kukkiwon. As Ive stated before, we have over 4000 members and growing and have been around for nearly 40 years. Our GM has virtually retired now and our chief instructor runs the club with assistance from a group of 7th dans. We have a system in place where instructors must be 4th dan and potential instructors are handpicked at about 2nd dan and receive additional 'instructors training' for the 7 years leading into 4th dan. So realistically, if our GM passes away tomorrow (heaven forbid), literally nothing changes.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> We arent a kukki affiliated club and thus no one has aspirations to receive promotion through the kukkiwon.


Really, nobody is a Kukkiwon affiliated club. There are not any annual Kukkiwon dues to pay and there is no Kukkiwon dojang certificate to hang on the wall stating that a club is a Kukkiwon club. The Kukkiwon certifies instructors, not clubs.

Your GM holds a Kukkiwon grade of higher than fourth and can, at any point, issue a Kukkiwon certificate should he so choose. Your club has over 4000 members, a few of whom are preparing for a dojang paldan, 





ralphmcpherson said:


> about 20 x 7th dans and countless 5th and 6th dans,.


and from what you say, none of them have a KKW cert (not a criticism; but that is what you seem to be saying.  If that is not the case, please correct me).



ralphmcpherson said:


> so basically we have heaps of people who could promote us within our club. .


Yes, heaps of pepole who could promote you within the club, all of whom had the *option* for a KKW dan, but none of whom can offer it the to any of those 4000 students. 

Given the size of your club, it probably isn't an issue, and at this point, I'd call it an organization, not a club, as your GM has got to have quite a few studios out and about. 

But he has the ability to promote within the Kukkiwon and as those heaps of people who can promote within the organization cannot *also* issue KKW dans. 

This is probably not an issue in the eyes of the students or the organization's yudanja. If your GM is offering the option and they are declining it, then that is their own choice. But none of their students within the org, following your GM's passing, will have the same option any longer (withiin your GM's life, his high dans could ask him to sign off on Kukki certs for their own students).

If starting his own org is what your GM wanted to do, then by all accounts, I'd say that he succeeded. I doubt that Jhoon Rhee's studio owners care that they cannot issue Kukkiwon or ITF dans either. 

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Feb 16, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Really, nobody is a Kukkiwon affiliated club. There are not any annual Kukkiwon dues to pay and there is no Kukkiwon dojang certificate to hang on the wall stating that a club is a Kukkiwon club.



With the start of the KOMS program, this is actually changing.

"There was an award ceremony to 44 nominated foreign dojangs with special plaque as same time with the presentation."
http://www.taekwonline.com/print_paper.php?number=1541

Here is some information on how your master/dojang/group can join the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System.

And here is a certificate clearly showing that the dojang/master is a member of the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System.

While what you are writing always used to be correct, now it's becoming murkier to make that distinction - there is a certificate you can display on your wall that has the words "Kukkiwon Member" and your dojang name on it.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 16, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Your GM holds a Kukkiwon grade of higher than fourth and can, at any point, issue a Kukkiwon certificate should he so choose.



Can _(at any point before the end of 2012*)_ issue a Kukkiwon certificate should he so choose.

* If our friends in LA/CA are correct in the Kukkiwon telling them that by the end of 2012 all instructors will have to have passed the instructor certification process to be able to recommend for dan grades to the Kukkiwon.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 16, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> With the start of the KOMS program, this is actually changing.
> 
> "There was an award ceremony to 44 nominated foreign dojangs with special plaque as same time with the presentation."
> http://www.taekwonline.com/print_paper.php?number=1541
> ...


That would make a 'break' with the Kukkiwon more meaningful than simply cessation of dan application processing.

Daniel


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 16, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That would make a 'break' with the Kukkiwon more meaningful than simply cessation of dan application processing.
> 
> Daniel


 
How so? Regardless of any changes that are coming the effect will be the same: no rank from the KKW and, thus, no participation in WTF events. What about the new regs will make leaving the KKW "more meaningful"?

FWIW, it looks like with the added requirement of going to a KKW Masters Seminar (if I recall the name of the event correctly) the KKW is following the ITF in the sense that you always had to be a certified International Instructor, which had a rank requirement of IV dan or above, in order certify black belts. The ITF did this from pretty early on and you very rarely hear any complaints by people because there's no view of changing the rules in mid-game. 

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Our GM is 74 and our highest ranking students are within a year of getting their 8th dans. Within 2 years we will have about 7 x8th dans by my calculations. We will also have about 20 x 7th dans and countless 5th and 6th dans, so basically we have heaps of people who could promote us within our club.




I know these numbers seem impressive to you, but for me I question the development of those high dans in your organization, especially those who do not have their own schools or their own students. We talked about this before, but if someone refuses to open their own dojang and raise their own students, then their development will be retarded and they will not grow. Put another way, you can continue to live under your parents roof for your whole life and not raise any children of your own, and you may even help your brother or sister watch their kids once in a while, but that doesn't mean that you will understand the lessons learned from being a parent and raising your own kids under your own roof. Someone like that, who wants to continue practicing but doesn't want to open their own dojang, which you have told us is a substantial number of those high dans in your club, their actual development is probably around 3rd or a new 4th Dan, irrespective of how long they have trained or when they started.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 16, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> How so? Regardless of any changes that are coming the effect will be the same: no rank from the KKW and, thus, no participation in WTF events. What about the new regs will make leaving the KKW "more meaningful"?


Assuming that I'm reading the info in Andy's post correctly, more meaningful in the sense that it would *mean* an _actual _organizational break. Yes, the end result is still the same.

Now, within the context of this thread, it would, I assume, mean that impressions made during a visit from Kukkiwon officials could have a much greater impact on the individual school.

Daniel


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> FWIW, it looks like with the added requirement of going to a KKW Masters Seminar (if I recall the name of the event correctly) the KKW is following the ITF in the sense that you always had to be a certified International Instructor, which had a rank requirement of IV dan or above, in order certify black belts. The ITF did this from pretty early on and you very rarely hear any complaints by people because there's no view of changing the rules in mid-game.




The International Master Instructor program was started by the KTA back in 1971, and there is a lengthy discussion about it in the Modern History book, so I really wonder about whether the ITF was "first" in this regard. But really, who cares who was first at this point? Does it matter? WTF had their world championships before the ITF. Whoop dee do.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Our GM has virtually retired now and our chief instructor runs the club with assistance from a group of 7th dans. We have a system in place where instructors must be 4th dan and potential instructors are handpicked at about 2nd dan and receive additional 'instructors training' for the 7 years leading into 4th dan. So realistically, if our GM passes away tomorrow (heaven forbid), literally nothing changes.




That's what you think. However, history shows that when a "founder" type passes away, his students may stick together for a while, but eventually people start breaking off and doing their own thing. My first instructors have retired, and the people who I trained with under with them are all doing their own thing. That's just the way it is.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> The International Master Instructor program was started by the KTA back in 1971, and there is a lengthy discussion about it in the Modern History book, so I really wonder about whether the ITF was "first" in this regard.


 
The first ITF International Instructors course was held in Seoul in 1968, IIRC. 



> But really, who cares who was first at this point? Does it matter? WTF had their world championships before the ITF. Whoop dee do.


 
I was pointing out that the KKW is now trying to standardize things in a way similar to what the ITF has done since the beginning and, because of the different process they took (beginning with competition first) people are already complaining about it. It wasn't a matter of who was first, as you can see from reading my post _in toto_, Glenn. 

Pax,

Chris


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Really, nobody is a Kukkiwon affiliated club. There are not any annual Kukkiwon dues to pay and there is no Kukkiwon dojang certificate to hang on the wall stating that a club is a Kukkiwon club. The Kukkiwon certifies instructors, not clubs.
> 
> Your GM holds a Kukkiwon grade of higher than fourth and can, at any point, issue a Kukkiwon certificate should he so choose. Your club has over 4000 members, a few of whom are preparing for a dojang paldan,
> and from what you say, none of them have a KKW cert (not a criticism; but that is what you seem to be saying.  If that is not the case, please correct me).
> ...


You are correct daniel. The reason I say "we are not a kukkiwon club" is because other than our GM there is no one who can promote through the kukkiwon within our club, and considering he has virtually retired, realistically no one will be promoted through the kukkiwon from this point forward I believe. If there was a market within our club to get a kukki cert surely someone in the last 15 years or more would have asked for one, but clearly no one has so I dont see it as a problem when our GM retires completely.  I only know of one or two who ever got a cert from our GM and no none under 7th dan in our club has one and the only guy I know of who has one is my instructor who is 7th dan (1st dan kukki) and by his own admission he doesnt even know where his kukki cert is. I do liken our set up to the rhee set up. I mentioned here the other day that I met 2 rhee instructors at work and we discussed tkd for at least an hour. Those guys, like us, really only value their instructors certificates, and one of them was a little unsure as to what the kukkiwon even is. I think our club went in the direction of becoming its own organisation years and years ago and the only link left is that once upon a time our GM had some connection with another org, no different to the fact that years ago rhee was affiliated with someone. We are quite up front with new students to the club that we are not kukki affiliated and even go as far as telling parents that if they wish their children to get into olympic style sparring and enter competitions that they will not be able to do so through our club. In fact when I joined with my daughter I joked with my instructor that my daughter would go to the olympics for tkd and I was told that if that was what I wanted I should not train at the club and instead join a WTF club. Its all a part of a gradual move toward being our own entity. Actually the only reason I am even aware that my GM could get kukki certs is because I was having a few beers at my old instructors house one night and the subject came up and he mentioned that he had got them for some students years ago. Had it not been for that conversation I wouldnt even be aware that he once was affiliated with them.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> I know these numbers seem impressive to you, but for me I question the development of those high dans in your organization, especially those who do not have their own schools or their own students. We talked about this before, but if someone refuses to open their own dojang and raise their own students, then their development will be retarded and they will not grow. Put another way, you can continue to live under your parents roof for your whole life and not raise any children of your own, and you may even help your brother or sister watch their kids once in a while, but that doesn't mean that you will understand the lessons learned from being a parent and raising your own kids under your own roof. Someone like that, who wants to continue practicing but doesn't want to open their own dojang, which you have told us is a substantial number of those high dans in your club, their actual development is probably around 3rd or a new 4th Dan, irrespective of how long they have trained or when they started.


I suppose it depends which part of their development we are talking about. I am good mates with 2 6th dans in my club. One is an instructor and has several clubs. He is an amazing instructor and his knowledge of the art truly blows me away, BUT due to his instructing commitments he doesnt get to spend as much time as he would like doing his own training. The other guy has never, and will never, become an instructor, it is all about the training for him. He trains as many nights a week as he possibly can and at club camps/seminars he just trains with everyone else rather than helping to instruct. He is the single best martial artist (physically) that I have ever seen, truly amazing. I can not begin to describe his ability. So to say that the second guy I described has not developed and ceased to grow is all relative I believe. I can tell you now that no one who has ever seen him do his stuff would ever say "he ceased to develop".


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> That's what you think. However, history shows that when a "founder" type passes away, his students may stick together for a while, but eventually people start breaking off and doing their own thing. My first instructors have retired, and the people who I trained with under with them are all doing their own thing. That's just the way it is.


Quite true, in fact throughout our club's history we have had groups of students move on, in fact a 7th dan moved on and start his own club about 10 years ago and his club has become quite successful and he has at least 20 dojangs running just that I know of. He carried his rank with him, he has his 7 dan certs hanging on his wall in his office and has had no problems creating his own little enterprise. To my knowlege he has just over 1000 students and recognises dan rank from our club as he teaches the same thing. In the future I have absolutely no doubt this will occur again, probably several times.


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## puunui (Feb 16, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The other guy has never, and will never, become an instructor, it is all about the training for him. He trains as many nights a week as he possibly can and at club camps/seminars he just trains with everyone else rather than helping to instruct. He is the single best martial artist (physically) that I have ever seen, truly amazing. I can not begin to describe his ability. So to say that the second guy I described has not developed and ceased to grow is all relative I believe. I can tell you now that no one who has ever seen him do his stuff would ever say "he ceased to develop".




That is physical development, which are dans 1-3. Dans 4-6 are more mental in nature and revolve around teaching, at your own school and developing your own methods. If you don't open your own school and develop students, then you miss out on that entire experience, in the same way that the child who never moves out of his parents house misses certain life lessons that can only be learned by having your own home and raising your own family. If he were my student, that 6th Dan who doesn't want to open his own school would be a 3rd, maybe 4th Dan and that's all he would ever be.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 16, 2011)

puunui said:


> That is physical development, which are dans 1-3. Dans 4-6 are more mental in nature and revolve around teaching, at your own school and developing your own methods. If you don't open your own school and develop students, then you miss out on that entire experience, in the same way that the child who never moves out of his parents house misses certain life lessons that can only be learned by having your own home and raising your own family. If he were my student, that 6th Dan who doesn't want to open his own school would be a 3rd, maybe 4th Dan and that's all he would ever be.


and that is fair enough, but not all schools are run that way. I always come back to why I started martial arts in the first place. I didnt start martial arts for 'mental development' or a 'deeper understanding of the art from a mental perspective" or to "learn how to teach what I know". I started martial arts to increase my fitness and flexibility, core strength, self defence and to spend time with my daughter. I personally want to instruct and have made my intentions known to my seniors, but I can also accept that its not for everybody. Some people have only limited time they can invest into their "hobby" and want to use this time to do the things they started for such as fun and fitness. In other endevours teching is not necessary, a footballer can have a distinguished career and go down as an all time great but is not expected to coach when he retires. For many people, if 4th dan means an end to "physical development", then they wouldnt want to grade, but then again, most people I know just want to train and couldnt care less how many stripes are on their belt. I know a guy who got his 5th dan last year, he put it off for 2 years and when I asked him why, he told me he wasnt where where he wanted to be physically. He took up running, cycling and weights and trained his *** off for 2 years until he was at his physical peak, then he graded. Guys like that just dont understand the concept of "your physical development is now no longer your main focus  now that you're 5th dan".


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## puunui (Feb 17, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> The first ITF International Instructors course was held in Seoul in 1968, IIRC.
> 
> That 1968 course was three months long. It is not the same thing as the three day course that the ITF has now.
> 
> ...


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> chrispillertkd said:
> 
> 
> > The first ITF International Instructors course was held in Seoul in 1968, IIRC.
> ...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You are correct daniel. The reason I say "we are not a kukkiwon club" is because other than our GM there is no one who can promote through the kukkiwon within our club, and considering he has virtually retired, realistically no one will be promoted through the kukkiwon from this point forward I believe.


Essentially, he is allowing the ability to be Kukkiwon certified to die on the vine.



ralphmcpherson said:


> If there was a market within our club to get a kukki cert surely someone in the last 15 years or more would have asked for one, but clearly no one has so I dont see it as a problem when our GM retires completely.


And I'd wager that 99% of the reason for that is the GM telling them that it isn't important or telling them that it is even an option.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I only know of one or two who ever got a cert from our GM and no none under 7th dan in our club has one and the only guy I know of who has one is my instructor who is 7th dan (1st dan kukki) and by his own admission he doesnt even know where his kukki cert is.


And this confirms my statement above.



ralphmcpherson said:


> I do liken our set up to the rhee set up. I mentioned here the other day that I met 2 rhee instructors at work and we discussed tkd for at least an hour. Those guys, like us, really only value their instructors certificates, and one of them was a little unsure as to what the kukkiwon even is. I think our club went in the direction of becoming its own organisation years and years ago and the only link left is that once upon a time our GM had some connection with another org, no different to the fact that years ago rhee was affiliated with someone.


Pretty sure that Rhee was ITF.  At the very least, early on he was using Chang Hon forms.  



ralphmcpherson said:


> We are quite up front with new students to the club that we are not kukki affiliated and even go as far as telling parents that if they wish their children to get into olympic style sparring and enter competitions that they will not be able to do so through our club. In fact when I joined with my daughter I joked with my instructor that my daughter would go to the olympics for tkd and I was told that if that was what I wanted I should not train at the club and instead join a WTF club. Its all a part of a gradual move toward being our own entity. Actually the only reason I am even aware that my GM could get kukki certs is because I was having a few beers at my old instructors house one night and the subject came up and he mentioned that he had got them for some students years ago. Had it not been for that conversation I wouldnt even be aware that he once was affiliated with them.


Well, to be accurate, unless the Kukkiwon took some kind of dan-stripping action against him (which I doubt), *he* is still nominally affiliated with them by virtue of his certification.  He could attend events and his rank of whatever it is he holds would still be recognized, and I'm sure that if you plug in his cert number or his name correctly that he will come up on a dan check on the Kukkiwon website.

But I agree that calling your club a Kukkiwon club at this point would be a stretch, given that aside from the GM and one KKW first dan/dojang7th dan, none of the other 4000 students have a Kukkiwon cert.

If you don't mind my asking, how many dojangs are in his organization?

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2011)

To turn this around, to those of you whose dojangs are affiliated with organizations other than the Kukkiwon, such as the ITF, ATA, ITA (the Tiger Rock one), AIMMA, Jhoon Rhee, etc., have you ever received a visit from your organizational officials?

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Feb 17, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> To turn this around, to those of you whose dojangs are affiliated with organizations other than the Kukkiwon, such as the ITF, ATA, ITA (the Tiger Rock one), AIMMA, Jhoon Rhee, etc., have you ever received a visit from your organizational officials?
> 
> Daniel




When I was a kid, our dojang in partnership with a few other dojang, brought in Jhoon Rhee from Maryland to oversee a large belt examination.  It was a big deal and I probably spent 3 months working awfully hard to test for my chodan under Mr. Rhee himself as the chief examiner.  

It certainly wasn't anything like a dreaded 'audit' however to make sure we were in compliance.  Now that I think about it as a jaded adult, it was probably more an opportunity for the dojang owners and other senior black belts to go up a grade.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 17, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Essentially, he is allowing the ability to be Kukkiwon certified to die on the vine.
> 
> 
> And I'd wager that 99% of the reason for that is the GM telling them that it isn't important or telling them that it is even an option.
> ...


At a guess I'd say we have about 150 dojangs currently operating in our organisation. I would imagine all clubs that eventually become their own organisation go through a "transitional phase" where technically the GM personally is affiliated with a larger org but moves in the direction of starting their own org. No doubt this 'phase' occured at some point with rhee tkd. The same happened at my karate school where I trained as a kid, they were originally affiliated with a larger org but went on to become their own entity. Our club has done the same.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 17, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Essentially, he is allowing the ability to be Kukkiwon certified to die on the vine.
> 
> 
> And I'd wager that 99% of the reason for that is the GM telling them that it isn't important or telling them that it is even an option.
> ...


Hey Daniel, could you please post a link where I could type my GM's name in as you have suggested so I can see what rank he holds (kukki). I remember being in early high school and my parents telling me that he had gone to korea for some sort of grading (he lived at the end of my street and everybody knew of him and his club), that must have been about 1987 from memory and Im sure I remember something about 6th dan. It would be interesting to type his name in and see what comes up.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Hey Daniel, could you please post a link where I could type my GM's name in as you have suggested so I can see what rank he holds (kukki). I remember being in early high school and my parents telling me that he had gone to korea for some sort of grading (he lived at the end of my street and everybody knew of him and his club), that must have been about 1987 from memory and Im sure I remember something about 6th dan. It would be interesting to type his name in and see what comes up.



The Dan Checker is at http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/new_examination/new_english/pop.jsp.

You need name, nationality and date of birth.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 18, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> The Dan Checker is at http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/new_examination/new_english/pop.jsp.
> 
> You need name, nationality and date of birth.


Thanks, I know full name and nationality but dont know exact date of birth unfortunately.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 18, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Hey Daniel, could you please post a link where I could type my GM's name in as you have suggested so I can see what rank he holds (kukki). I remember being in early high school and my parents telling me that he had gone to korea for some sort of grading (he lived at the end of my street and everybody knew of him and his club), that must have been about 1987 from memory and Im sure I remember something about 6th dan. It would be interesting to type his name in and see what comes up.


Go here: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/index.action and click on promotion test. Then go to the upper right and click on one stop service. A dropdown will appear with one of the options being poom/dan check.

You have to put the name in exactly as it appears on the certificate, nationality, and date of birth, or have the cert number.

Daniel


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