# 911 System Fails Pa. Man



## MJS (Mar 1, 2010)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100228/ap_on_re_us/us_snow911_death



> PITTSBURGH  With her boyfriend in severe abdominal pain, Sharon Edge called 911 for an ambulance in the early morning hours of Feb. 6. Heavy snow was falling  so heavy it would all but bring the city to a standstill  and Curtis Mitchell needed to go to a hospital.
> "Help is on the way," the operator said.
> It never arrived.
> Nearly 30 hours later  and 10 calls from the couple to 911, four 911 calls to them and at least a dozen calls between 911 and paramedics  Curtis Mitchell died at his home. His electricity knocked out, his heat long off, the 50-year-old former steelworker waited, huddled beneath blankets on his sofa.
> "I'm very angry, because I feel they didn't do their job like they supposed to," said Edge, 51. "My man would still be living if they'da did they job like they was supposed to ... They took somebody that I love away."


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## grydth (Mar 1, 2010)

But given the severe weather, did the 911 system - or any emergency services - really _fail_ this man...... and by "fail", I would mean that there was fault, be it negligence or intentional malfeasance.

Clearly the man died without any assistance being given, and that is a tragic thing. 

But were the emergency services, coping with immense snow fall and undoubtedly a surge of calls for help, *able* to help?

There are going to be instances, even with all of the modern technology, where catastrophe is going to overwhelm us.... and people are going to die. To me, it makes a real difference whether anything *could *have been done. If not, I don't know that I'd agree that 911 "failed" here.


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 1, 2010)

Well, I think the issue is that they told the man to walk to the ambulance. At no point did any paramedic walk to the patient. At one point they were a block away from his house.


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## grydth (Mar 1, 2010)

I'd be curious about what any paramedics/EMTs on the Forum think about the wisdom of leaving the ambulance and walking a football field's distance through 2 feet of snow.... what risk did that pose to them - and if they became disabled or stranded, what of all the other folks they could have helped?

I wouldn't be sure they could have gotten him back to the ambulance in any event. We used to help a wheelchair bound fellow student at our university up north..... and in the Winter, even being in good shape, that was hard. I'm not sure a lot of EMS workers wouldn't be risking their own cardiac event in such circumstances.


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## Archangel M (Mar 1, 2010)

Jade Tigress said:


> Well, I think the issue is that they told the man to walk to the ambulance. At no point did any paramedic walk to the patient. At one point they were a block away from his house.



That I have a problem with. If the ambulance crew knew where the man lived and didn't go to him that's inexcusable.


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## jks9199 (Mar 1, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> That I have a problem with. If the ambulance crew knew where the man lived and didn't go to him that's inexcusable.


I generally agree... but there are details that aren't evident.  It seems that the victims never escalated their call until he was dead.  Did they refuse to come out -- or did they say something to the effect of "OK, well, it's not that bad, I guess..."

I think it's legitimate to ask and consider what the conditions were, and whether it was really feasible for the medics to walk to the house.  After all, they get there, having hiked through the blizzard, they're limited to what they have in their bags.  I doubt they could bring a stretcher/gurney with them...  What could they do at that point if they had to transport the guy?  What's the neighborhood like?  Is it somewhere that they could have left the ambulance so unattended... or would they have come out to find a shell, no wheels, and no drugs on board?

Like I said; I'm generally of the opinion that the medics should have at least made an effort to get to the guy to make an assessment on-scene.  But that doesn't mean I'm automatically labeling them as lazy and at fault, either.

Though -- I'm sure that in the end, the city will be paying...


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

911 did not fail this man. He failed himself cuase U R ON U'R ON.

What in 1776 are we doing? Why are we abdicating our own survival to the 'government'?

Look, it's nice to have 911, or call the cops, or fire department, but do you have your own first aid kit (a good one, not the Wal-mart variety?)

Do you have some good fire extinguishers? 

A few good guns with ammo, just in case? 

Flash lights? 

Food for say, 2 weeks at least?

If not, get them! If you can call 911, great, if not, handle it yourself. But to be able to handle it yourself you need the means to handle it, right? 

Get the means.

Deaf


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## Archangel M (Mar 1, 2010)

Except that this guy had an obvious medical condition that required professional medical attention..not a first aid kit. Im all for self-sufficiency, but we can only survive in the long term on the goodwill and help of others.


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2010)

Some things that I have questions on:

1) Every dispatch center that I've ever seen has had some sort of recording device in operation, so I'm sure the tapes will reveal alot.

2) It states that a call was made and the comment, "Help is one the way." was made. 

3) Article states that details of the call weren't passed onto the next shift. Communication is a very important part of functioning properly in a communications center. Not knowing how this center operates, upon reading this, it sounds to me, as if the call was taken, but wasn't dispatched right away. Sounds as if the call was taken at shift change, and rather than the call being dispatched, the person in charge of that, just got up, and left at the end of their shift, failing to a) dispatch the call and b) failing to pass on the info.

4) I understand that some states got slammed with heavy snow, but the thought of making the man walk to the ambulance crew doesnt sit well with me. Why didn't the crew walk to him? They're assuming that he was capable of walking, but what if he was not? 

I've worked as a dispatcher for 8yrs, this May. Any time I'm taking calls, I make sure that when I put one in, either for PD or Fire/EMS, that the other person knows that they have a call in. Usually, when there is a new call, it highlights in yellow. I'm always looking at the screen, as I dont want to take the chance that I miss something. Additionally, seeing that the call takers and dispatchers are all in the same room, where I work, I listen to the calltaker. Does it sound like they're getting ready to put a medical call in? If so, thats my cue to get ready to dispatch the necessary services. This is just something I do. IMO, its all about covering your *** and doing your job.

There have been many times, when my shift is nearing its end, and a call comes in, and I'll stay to dispatch the call. There have also been times, when my relief will do it, but again, they're physically standing right there, they see the call, and they know it needs to be dispatched.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 2, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> 911 did not fail this man. He failed himself cuase U R ON U'R ON.
> 
> What in 1776 are we doing? Why are we abdicating our own survival to the 'government'?



Yeah yeah the government is bad and all...

Do you have a top notch ER in your house with surgeons on 24 hour standby?
If not, it is not inconceivable that you will need to call 911 at some point or other, and chances are that driving up to the hospital yourself is not an option because there is a fence post sticking out from your leg, your back is broken or you have some internal injury that has you unable to stand on your legs, let alone go someplace.

That is what 911 services is for. IF you call them with something serious and they keep saying that help is on the way, it is therefore not unreasonable to expect that to be the case. furthermore, in such a situation, having band aids on hand is not going to help you anything at all.


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 2, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Except that this guy had an obvious medical condition that required professional medical attention..not a first aid kit. Im all for self-sufficiency, but we can only survive in the long term on the goodwill and help of others.



If you have 'obvious medial conditions' then squirrel away something to keep that from happening. OR, make sure you have a way of getting that help.

You guys do know when a hurricane comes the 911 service WILL NOT COME GET YOU? Its things like that you must see and prepare for as best as you can. And even then, you might be out of luck cause they just could not get to you.

Nothing in this world is guaranteed. NOTHING.

Deaf


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## Archangel M (Mar 2, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> If you have 'obvious medial conditions' then squirrel away something to keep that from happening. OR, make sure you have a way of getting that help.
> 
> You guys do know when a hurricane comes the 911 service WILL NOT COME GET YOU? Its things like that you must see and prepare for as best as you can. And even then, you might be out of luck cause they just could not get to you.
> 
> ...



So if you drop over of a heart attack it's your own damn fault for not having a defib socked away in your bomb shelter???

Like I said. Preparedness is essential, but some people go overboard into the paranoid 2012 mode. There was NEVER a period where our pioneer ancestors survived entirely "off-the grid". They had to trade skins/crops for ammo/blacksmithing etc. Even the Mountain Men of legend only went off into the wilderness for relatively short periods before coming back to live in society. The ones who pushed it too far often died at a young (even by their standards) age. No man is an Island.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> 911 did not fail this man. He failed himself cuase U R ON U'R ON.
> 
> What in 1776 are we doing? Why are we abdicating our own survival to the 'government'?
> 
> ...


 


Deaf Smith said:


> If you have 'obvious medial conditions' then squirrel away something to keep that from happening. OR, make sure you have a way of getting that help.
> 
> You guys do know when a hurricane comes the 911 service WILL NOT COME GET YOU? Its things like that you must see and prepare for as best as you can. And even then, you might be out of luck cause they just could not get to you.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with part of your post.  Having some 'basic' things, may be enough to put out a small fire, or basic first aid, fact is, is that those things are a) not a sure shot solution and b) are only a temporary fix.  Its kinda like fix-a-flat.  You should really get the tire fixed properly or replaced.  Just like the smaller tires in your trunk, if you dont have a full size spare.  It'll serve its purpose for a short time, but its not a permanent solution.

Many stores and businesses have defibs. in the event they're needed.  However, just because I hook up the pads and the machine gives a shock and starts the persons heart, doesnt mean that they should get up and carry on with their day.  They need to get to a doctor.

Your first paragraph in your 2nd post is something I'd like to comment on.  You said:

"If you have 'obvious medial conditions' then squirrel away something to keep that from happening. OR, make sure you have a way of getting that help."

Not sure what you mean by "squirrel away something to keep that from happening."  Lets say we have an 85yo male with a heart condition.  He lives alone.  He's on numerous medications that he takes daily.  So, he gets up one morning, and enroute to the bathroom to get his daily meds, he drops to the floor.  Now what?  What if he dropped as he was getting out of bed?  Only thing he can reach is the phone, but he can't get to the bathroom to get his meds.  Now what?  

See, we can 'what if' these situations until we're blue in the face.  Fact is, is that nothing is a sure shot, and that goes for calling 911.  I say that with the utmost confidence as well, because its happened when I've been working.  People die before help arrives, people die even when CPR is given.  

There was some very obvious miscommunication in that dispatch center on that night.  People are assuming that this man was capable of walking outside, that he was capable of driving to the hospital.  People call 911 for help, and that is what they should get...help.


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## David43515 (Mar 3, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> I generally agree... but there are details that aren't evident. It seems that the victims never escalated their call until he was dead. Did they refuse to come out -- or did they say something to the effect of "OK, well, it's not that bad, I guess..."
> 
> I think it's legitimate to ask and consider what the conditions were, and whether it was really feasible for the medics to walk to the house. After all, they get there, having hiked through the blizzard, they're limited to what they have in their bags. I doubt they could bring a stretcher/gurney with them... What could they do at that point if they had to transport the guy? What's the neighborhood like? Is it somewhere that they could have left the ambulance so unattended... or would they have come out to find a shell, no wheels, and no drugs on board?
> 
> ...


 
I was a volunteer fireman and went through all the training for my EMT basic before I married and moved overseas. Yes, EMTs are trained to stay out of dangerous conditions so that they don`t become the ones needing rescue. But if they could get within a block and the only threat was the weather then a police car could get close enough to assist them by watching thier vehichle while they carried thier gurney a block to his house. If they don`t roll in the snow , you carry them. By federal law, once you begin treating a patient you cannot abandon them until someone else takes over or unless there is a clear and present danger in your staying there.If you do you can lose your liscence in a heartbeat.

I helped treat a 450 pound man who`d fallen down a set of concrete stairs in the freezing rain. We slipped and slid around, we got soaked to the skin, and it took five people to lift him into the ambulance, but we did it. You don`t just walk away from someone who needs your help.


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## grydth (Mar 3, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I was a volunteer fireman and went through all the training for my EMT basic before I married and moved overseas. Yes, EMTs are trained to stay out of dangerous conditions so that they don`t become the ones needing rescue. But if they could get within a block and the only threat was the weather then a police car could get close enough to assist them by watching thier vehichle while they carried thier gurney a block to his house. If they don`t roll in the snow , you carry them. By federal law, once you begin treating a patient you cannot abandon them until someone else takes over or unless there is a clear and present danger in your staying there.If you do you can lose your liscence in a heartbeat.
> 
> I helped treat a 450 pound man who`d fallen down a set of concrete stairs in the freezing rain. We slipped and slid around, we got soaked to the skin, and it took five people to lift him into the ambulance, but we did it. You don`t just walk away from someone who needs your help.



I can only commend your service and dedication. It would appear that you are in good shape, in the prime of life. But what were the facts, and who were the personnel _here_...

These crews likely did not have 5 folks available for this call.... or maybe not even 3. Just personal observation here, but some of the crew members I have seen are not in the best of shape _themselves_. Walking through 2 feet of snow, in a white out, could well have made these would be rescuers into victims. 

I'd be the first critic where people were wantonly or negligently left to die. Here, I am not yet convinced it was possible to save this man.... and even given some of the errors pointed out by others, I am not convinced those doomed this poor fellow.


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## Archangel M (Mar 3, 2010)

30 hrs on a 911 call is inexcusable IMO.


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## David43515 (Mar 4, 2010)

I was 38 years old, with a 48 inch waist. I wasn`t and am not now in "great shape". Despite the bodybuilders and male models you see on tv hospital dramas, most EMTs are chubby midle-aged men and women. You don`t have to be in phenomenal shape to save people, but you do have to make the effort.

I`ll look forward to hearing more of the details on this particular case and finding out what thier reasons might have been.


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## grydth (Mar 4, 2010)

That's where we agree, and also disagree.

As I said, I've seen all makes and models of first responders.... and a rather surprising number seem to not be in the best of health themselves. 

I also agree more facts on the whole incident would be beneficial. 

Where I disagree is that, "you do have to make the effort"...... if the snow's already over a foot deep and coming down in blinding fashion, so bad you can't get any closer with the ambulance.... if you and perhaps your partners are very likely cardiac event candidates yourselves - I think you *don't* make the further effort at that time. 

What if, under such adverse weather, you get the poor victim out of the building and into the storm - - - and your partner goes down clutching his/her chest..... _now what? 

_I am not in Emergency Services, so this is just a personal opinion.... but I am concerned that we are perhaps asking more of these people than was possible.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2010)

grydth said:


> That's where we agree, and also disagree.
> 
> As I said, I've seen all makes and models of first responders.... and a rather surprising number seem to not be in the best of health themselves.
> 
> ...


 
Funny you should talk about the physical condition of the first responders.  A few years ago, I went to this all day seminar.  The topics, IMO, were really nothing that interested me, but I had to go for work, so...

Anyways, I get there and I'm sitting next to one of my co-workers.  He leaned over to me and asked, "Mike, what do the majority of people in this room, all have in common?"  I turned and replied, "They're all a bunch of fat, out of shape slobs."  And it was true.  Now, I'm no Arnold, but I'm not pushing 300+lbs either.  A room full of dispatchers, who sit on their *** for 8, maybe 16hrs a day, eat unhealthy food and are larger than life.  Classic example...tonight for dinner, I had 1 turkey and cheese sandwich on a wheat roll, with some carrot sticks.  3 of my coworkers had pizza.  Go figure. LOL.  I work out 3x/week with weights, train in the MAs, and walk at least 3mi/day with the dog.  The walking is split up into 3 segments, but nonetheless, its still exercise.  Usually at least for 1 of the walks, I'll put on a weighted vest and walk.  I do more cardio in 1 day, than probably 3/4 of my coworkers do in a month.  

I see cops and firefighters, who are out of shape, and these are 2 jobs, where, IMO, being healthy is VERY important.  

So, in the situation you just painted, it seems to me, that everyone is shafted all around.  The victim may not be able to walk out due to their medical issues, and the EMS workers may not be able to get to him because they're out of shape and may drop.  Then again, I dont think the average Joe is thinking about that....the fact that their help may be out of shape, walking time bombs.  Instead, they're probably thinking, "I'm in duress, I'm calling for help and its not coming!"


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## Archangel M (Mar 4, 2010)

If you are in a job where you are expected to HELP people..you don't tell someone calling 911 in severe pain "Im too fat. Walk your *** over here."

You go and keel over if it comes down to it or you should QUIT.


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> If you are in a job where you are expected to HELP people..you don't tell someone calling 911 in severe pain "Im too fat. Walk your *** over here."
> 
> You go and keel over if it comes down to it or you should QUIT.



Much as I'd like to agree with you guys on this one, under the facts we _appear _to have here, I just cannot.

Your lines even sound great, better than mine ....but I think they are mistaken. 

If the fat EMTs have a cardiac event, they save *nobody*. Indeed, they become a drain on already strained First Responder and Hospital resources themselves. Of what social utility is this?

No, I believe their duty is to save as many people as they can, within their safety limits, and those imposed by catastrophic weather conditions.


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## Archangel M (Mar 5, 2010)

Where do you get "these were fat overweight EMT's" as "facts" out of this? 

If you are incapable of walking through some snow and carrying a patient on a backboard then what the hell are you doing in EMS? Thats part of the job. This is like saying the fat overweight cop should get a pass on having to arrest a person because the struggle could give him a heart attack. With all respect I think you are in error on this.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2010)

The over weight EMT is obviously a guess, simply as a possible reason as to why the EMTs in this story, didn't physically walk to the mans house.  But I too have to agree with Arch on this point....if you're not capable of doing the job, then perhaps the job isn't for them.  Then again, its interesting, because given the fact that all of the agility tests that I've seen (I dont want to speak for other depts that I'm not familiar with) have been very physically demanding, the people who take these tests have to be in good shape, otherwise they're not going to make it.  So these people, over time, get obese.  

But, one would think, that if these people have a job, to help the public, then they need to do it.  Im sure there has been cases, in which the rescuers have had to walk to get the patient.  How would it look, if the victim dies, and in this case he did, and his family sued.  Weather aside, I'm sure the question of whether or not all options were exhausted, to attempt to get to the victim, will be asked.


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2010)

Point taken - I could have been more clear. 

As "facts", I refer to the severe inclement weather, and the details, such as they are, contained in the source for the OP. 

 That many EMTs are out of shape is merely a general observation, one which we began discussing several posts ago. Nobody here as yet knows what their individual conditions were - but that could be relevant in determining the reasonableness of their actions.

But, no,  I don't agree that those with physical limitations ought not be on the job. Let's get away from just  "fat" as a generality, as that has a social stigma. There are many other types of limitations - say, bad knees and backs - that EMTs may have incurred bravely, without any fault. 

As a side note, I don't feel communities would be better off without them at all. Especially communities like those around here, where many are volunteers. Many of these folks have a ton of experience which they use to help their more robust, but less experienced colleagues. 

Maybe you associate with a tougher crowd than I do, because I know very few people who could carry a heavy individual through a couple feet of snow in white out conditions.... it is a *fact *that the weather was bad enough to seriously limit the progress of vehicular traffic, so I doubt many could carry another person through that.

I may be proven wrong, eventually, but right now I don't see enough to condemn these folks.


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## Archangel M (Mar 5, 2010)

I have walked a few blocks during incliment weather to answer domesitc complaints and other incidents when storms made roads impassible. If we had to arrest and drag a non-compliant person to jail we would have.

Who would we call if we couldn't do the job? 911???

In these situations I always ask myself.."If that was my mom/wife/dad, would I walk through the snowstorm and carry him back on a board?"


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2010)

Your community is indeed fortunate to have you...... but the famous Clint Eastwood line applies here: A man's got to know his limitations.

Perhaps the limitations of those there were exceeded by this storm.

Maybe you haven't been in them, but I have - there are storms that just stop everything dead. *Nobody* is getting through them. Maybe this was one - or maybe it was just enough to stop anyone that was there.

You make a call to push through and do your duty - one has to respect that. But another guy realizes that one or more of his crew likely won't make it - and I have to respect his decision to turn back.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 6, 2010)

grydth said:


> Maybe you haven't been in them, but I have - there are storms that just stop everything dead. *Nobody* is getting through them. Maybe this was one - or maybe it was just enough to stop anyone that was there.



Note to self:

When you become a Supervillian, commit crimes in these storms!


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## Archangel M (Mar 6, 2010)

> &#8226; Once, an ambulance made it across the bridge and was at the opposite end of the block on the narrow street where the couple lived &#8212; a little more than a football field's length. Again, paramedics didn't try to walk.


A little more than 100 yd's. And this was in Pittsburgh fer Pete's Sake. This wasn't some blinding storm out on the prairie where you are going to loose your direction and stumble into the wilderness. 

And it's not safe for YOU to walk but you can tell the PATIENT to walk through the storm to get to YOU??? WTF?? That seems contradictory huh?

If the police waited 30 hrs on a 911 call and someone got killed would the weather have been an excuse for them?


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## jks9199 (Mar 6, 2010)

Well, we ARE talking about medics...  Maybe if they'd sent some cops first so that the medics could stage and be advised the scene was safe?  

Do I think that they should have made a much better effort?  Absolutely.  At a bare minimum, it seems that that they should have been able to get to him, assess him, and make further determinations from that point.  But I'm willing to allow them a chance to explain the decision.  I noted that the victims didn't seem to escalate their calls or the urgency of the call; if he had a lengthy history of non-emergency calls using medics as a taxi service, for example, that might have figured in their assessment of whether or not to try to reach him.  The medics condition, the worsening whether conditions, neighborhood safety, or other things may be cited to justify their actions -- but the burden to explain it is on them once they arrive in the area.


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## MJS (Mar 6, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Well, we ARE talking about medics... Maybe if they'd sent some cops first so that the medics could stage and be advised the scene was safe?


 
Is this SOP though?  For the routine medicals, where I work, its either just an ambulance or fire and ambulance.  If there is a crime scene, the patient is being violent, etc., then the PD goes and the EMS stages until the scene is safe.  In this case though, I didn't see any need for PD.  



> Do I think that they should have made a much better effort? Absolutely. At a bare minimum, it seems that that they should have been able to get to him, assess him, and make further determinations from that point. But I'm willing to allow them a chance to explain the decision. I noted that the victims didn't seem to escalate their calls or the urgency of the call; if he had a lengthy history of non-emergency calls using medics as a taxi service, for example, that might have figured in their assessment of whether or not to try to reach him. The medics condition, the worsening whether conditions, neighborhood safety, or other things may be cited to justify their actions -- but the burden to explain it is on them once they arrive in the area.


 
Agreed, and this is why I dont like to base my opinion just on the original article, although at this point, just going on what we have, it seems like the system failed the man.  He called for help, and there was some miscommunication.


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## Archangel M (Mar 6, 2010)

http://www.wpxi.com/news/22701823/detail.html



> Now the city has said emergency responders must go to the door of a 911  caller, no matter what.
> 
> Public Safety director Michael Huss said  Mitchell may have survived if he had been carried out to the ambulance.



That wasn't required before this??


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## jks9199 (Mar 6, 2010)

MJS said:


> Is this SOP though?  For the routine medicals, where I work, its either just an ambulance or fire and ambulance.  If there is a crime scene, the patient is being violent, etc., then the PD goes and the EMS stages until the scene is safe.  In this case though, I didn't see any need for PD.


That was intended as a little bit of an inside joke.  At least in my area, the fire & rescue departments have quite the reputation for responding to things ranging from overdoses to anything with the word "assault" mentioned in close proximity (including if the call taker or dispatcher was trying to season their lunch...) and staging until the PD clears the scene. 

I sometimes wonder when they're going to have us clear the scene of those mean flames that might hurt them...

(We do generally enjoy a good relationship with fire board... just to be clear!  There's just also plenty of ribbing...)

More seriously, where I work, almost all fire & rescue calls have a fire truck and ambulance dispatched.  All firefighters are at least EMT-A certified.  


> Agreed, and this is why I dont like to base my opinion just on the original article, although at this point, just going on what we have, it seems like the system failed the man.  He called for help, and there was some miscommunication.


Yep.  One part of me wants to give them the benefit of the doubt, but we're looking at multiple calls, and no meaningful response.


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