# Need actual help.  Truly need some Knowledge / Input...



## Luthor (Jul 22, 2021)

Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....

Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.

...


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## drop bear (Jul 22, 2021)

You are looking for the wrong thing.

Do MMA.

You go to a MMA gym and most of the guys there will be able to hold you down and choke you untill you die if they wanted to. They probably won't. But they could.


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## Unkogami (Jul 22, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


What you need is not training.....


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## Luthor (Jul 22, 2021)

Ok thanks.  Forget about is.  Waste of time here. Seems like everyone is either deaf, dumb, or just plain stupid.


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## _Simon_ (Jul 22, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Ok thanks.  Forget about is.  Waste of time here. Seems like everyone is either deaf, dumb, or just plain stupid.


Excuse me, ease up. Really? You post, got a great response from @drop bear , claiming to be serious about this, yet less than 3 hours after posting, you insult us, give up and say it's a waste of time? That very attitude doesn't help your 'self defense' situation...

Give it a little time and don't expect the entire world to drop at your feet.


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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Excuse me, ease up. Really? You post, got a great response from @drop bear , claiming to be serious about this, yet less than 3 hours after posting, you insult us, give up and say it's a waste of time? That very attitude doesn't help your 'self defense' situation...
> 
> Give it a little time and don't expect the entire world to drop at your feet.



The OP was posted at 0743 UK time,  I've just seen it, like everyone else I don't sit waiting for posts on here to appear. 

After reading OP's so polite post I second Drop Bear's advice because we love people with attitudes like that, they are so much fun to choke out.


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## frank raud (Jul 22, 2021)

You're in the Pacific Northwest? Cruise around until you find a bar with 20 or so black Harleys parked in front.  Walk in, take your pick of the Mongols, Vagos, Gypsy Jokers or Brother Speed members(probably not all in the same bar, beggars can't be choosers). Explain you have a large sum of money to pay to learn the "deadly arts". Pretty sure you will have a quick lesson in how these things are done.  Thank me later.


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## BigMotor (Jul 22, 2021)

You already know how to kill someone, everyone with any sense knows how to kill.
1: You can cut their throat.
2: You can blow their brains out.
3: You can bash their brains out.
4: You can run over them with a vehicle.

What you are looking for is a preferred method of self-defense, that can be used to kill. I would say that a .45 and classes at Lethal Force Institute.



			LFI Schedule
		


Killing is pretty easy to figure out, but fighting systems stop before any actual homicide takes place. The person in training is free to figure out how to kill.

BTW: I was forced to kill with a knife, and I cut his jugular, and it was a terrible thing. But, it was a needful thing, the guy was close to knocking me out with a club, and then running me over.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 22, 2021)

I know that in old school message boards like this one (as opposed to facebook groups, etc), the regulars tend to eat their young.  MT is no different, but I'm a big boy and I accepted that when I came here myself.

So I really _want_ to empathize with the OP, but I can't in this case.   It's as if he's literally asking to learn some bullshido.


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## O'Malley (Jul 22, 2021)

If OP can't handle a couple of honest answers on a forum, I doubt he's ready to go through the initial phase of martial training. You know, the one where you suck big time.


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## O'Malley (Jul 22, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I know that in old school message boards like this one (as opposed to facebook groups, etc), the regulars tend to eat their young.  MT is no different, but I'm a big boy and I accepted that when I came here myself.
> 
> So I really _want_ to empathize with the OP, but I can't in this case.   It's as if he's literally asking to learn some bullshido.


TBH I don't recall any dogpiling when I joined. Maybe the trauma was so strong I refuse to remember.


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Am I the only one who is sincerely concerned?


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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> Am I the only one who is sincerely concerned?


To be honest, yes 😂


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## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest, yes 😂


 I appreciate the levity, but as you surely know, we have a lot of crazy going on in the USA right now.  A pretty significant portion of our population has been radicalized.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> Am I the only one who is sincerely concerned?



I definitely am.  If he's looking for the ability to simply kill someone quickly, common sense would dictate that he purchase a firearm.

I can't help but think that he would have already done that by now, if he could.  My guess is that something comes up in the system when he tries to purchase one.  And based on the OP, it's probably for good reason.


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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> I appreciate the levity, but as you surely know, we have a lot of crazy going on in the USA right now.  A pretty significant portion of our population has been radicalized.


well I only put the emoji in so people wouldn't think I'm harsh.

I don't care about him at all, I'm old, tired and fed up of people. I only like greyhounds now, seriously. It's bad enough with the other one on here with anger issues and the school bully who thinks he's a winner. Honestly, some people are just thumping great twunts.


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## frank raud (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> Am I the only one who is sincerely concerned?


Well, you are in the Pacific Northwest.


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## drop bear (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> I appreciate the levity, but as you surely know, we have a lot of crazy going on in the USA right now.  A pretty significant portion of our population has been radicalized.


In which case he is still better doing mma. Because they are a little less, the world is coming to get you. Than your average RSBD,


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 22, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. I can say this much though.... if you're still under 16, you can enroll in CIA Summer Camp...


Steve said:


> Am I the only one who is sincerely concerned?


No, but you're in the same part of the world as the OP, so you probably have reason to be more concerned than the rest of us.


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## Buka (Jul 22, 2021)

Find yourself a Fred Villari school. Sign up. You'll be all set.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 22, 2021)

Join the Marines. become a Navy Seal, Army Ranger or just about any other special forces group


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## jks9199 (Jul 22, 2021)

Are there significant concerns about where the US is heading right now (and most of the rest of the world, too... but I'm being sort of parochial...)?  Hell, yes.

Is some sort of "immersion training in being lethal" the cure?  Nope.  It's not even a survival tactic.  There are things you can do.  I'm going to recommend an e-book by Don Roley -- Killer Chaos: Surviving the Crazy Years.  Get in the Kindle form; he's pushing updates out from time to time.  Much smarter tactics and suggestions.  Because it's easy to become dangerous -- but being dangerous isn't going to do much.


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## drop bear (Jul 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Join the Marines. become a Navy Seal, Army Ranger or just about any other special forces group



I linked a video from a navy seal. And he canned that idea.

Obviously not hard core enough.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I linked a video from a navy seal. And he canned that idea.
> 
> Obviously not hard core enough.


Maybe he thought you meant these:


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## frank raud (Jul 23, 2021)

Luthor said:


> . More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife,


I like your gumption, so I'm going to let you in on the big secret of knife fighting, and am not even going to charge you $5000.00 for this hard earned, real deal information. People have died seeking this quality of information. Are you ready? Here goes.....the pointy end goes in the other guy. Repeat as necessary.


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 23, 2021)

frank raud said:


> I like your gumption, so I'm going to let you in on the big secret of knife fighting, and am not even going to charge you $5000.00 for this hard earned, real deal information. People have died seeking this quality of information. Are you ready? Here goes.....the pointy end goes in the other guy. Repeat as necessary.


🍿


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 23, 2021)

Luthor said:


> I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium


You're on the No Fly List?


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## CB Jones (Jul 23, 2021)

First Rule of Secret Immersive How to Kill Your Opponent Club is you don't speak of Secret Immersive How to Kill Your Oppnent Club


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 23, 2021)

Luthor said:


> lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal. And I don't mean 'martial art





Luthor said:


> [don't] point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.


If you're not interested in "that" martial arts stuff, why in the world would you post on a martial art chat site??  

I'm very happy one such as you is _not_ interested in MA as a discipline.  If you came into my school (or any genuine and responsible school) you would quickly be escorted out. 

 I suggest that you surf the internet some more to link up with those that share your desire, perhaps the Dark Web?, or maybe check out the last page of a comic book (do they still have those?) and respond to the ad from some guy in a cape and cool pointy goatee promising you the secrets of a deadly lost art.

And thank you for a most entertaining post!


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## Hanshi (Jul 23, 2021)

I'm pretty sure you're looking up the wrong tree if you want to find apples.  Learning to be lethal is super easy.  Learn to shoot or stab or swing a bat and you got it!  Even many martial arts will teach you everything you need to know; just not when/why to satisfy your blood lust.  Killing is easy, live and let live might be tougher.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 23, 2021)

killing is easy, its the not going to prison part thats hard to figure out.
sometimes its better to get close to the person and just do little things that erode their sense of well being as you get to watch their soul die a little more each day until finally that person is nothing more than an empty shell.  
boowhaahahaha


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## Urban Trekker (Jul 23, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> killing is easy, its the not going to prison part thats hard to figure out.



Not for me.  I've always played out the scenario in my mind of suddenly realizing that I'm standing next to a dead body with a murder weapon in my hand.  How do I avoid going to prison?  Well, there's another life I'm going to have to take...


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## _Simon_ (Jul 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I know that in old school message boards like this one (as opposed to facebook groups, etc), the regulars tend to eat their young.  MT is no different, but I'm a big boy and I accepted that when I came here myself.
> 
> So I really _want_ to empathize with the OP, but I can't in this case.   It's as if he's literally asking to learn some bullshido.


I think the attitude and mindset play a big part in your initial beginnings here, and well, anywhere. You tend to invite what you put out. If you come in with manners, respect and courtesy, the subsequent responses may be different... (not always of course! The environment and atmosphere you're entering plays a part too)


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 24, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


Only thing i can think of is tactical shootign classes or more commercial based training.    I know kembatize brand does, i forgot what they are called, immediate violence drills or something?      Basiically, you get taken somewhere, and a compeltely random and imemdiate thing is done to you, or chain of things. 






this, it may go by diffrent names.        But martial arts is more of a hobby, the best place you can find for that sort of deal is tactical shooting places, commerical training places and "comabtives" places.   But commercial places can vary to ticking the boxes to get the relivent license, to being more expensive than worth, and so can shooting places for that matter and comabtives can be seen as more marketing and more of a martial art type thing.   In that its a hobby not for proffesional use. 

I dont think it would be the coruse, just they may run you through a sudden violence drill or two as a test to see how you do, as for people who do it outside of a course format, no idea.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 24, 2021)

Unkogami said:


> What you need is not training.....


Outside of the hyperbole, what he wants is training, just not in fluff and in the crtieria he has made, that is for real life use, just about defending himself, no added fluff, no sports pre amble or preparing for competions, just going to a place using a course format to acquire skills he can use to defend himself.    And hes not looking for a hobby.

Removing hyperbole and as much as i can tell.        Now the person asking it may have done it as a "troll", but other people may have something similar to this question and look for the thread hoping somone would give a legitimate reply to something.





Dirty Dog said:


> I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. I can say this much though.... if you're still under 16, you can enroll in CIA Summer Camp...


You have to do better than that to sell your videos, we all know inteligence gathering is 98% office work.


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## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2021)

Rat said:


> Outside of the hyperbole, what he wants is training, just not in fluff and in the crtieria he has made, that is for real life use, just about defending himself, no added fluff, no sports pre amble or preparing for competions, just going to a place using a course format to acquire skills he can use to defend himself.    And hes not looking for a hobby.
> 
> Removing hyperbole and as much as i can tell.        Now the person asking it may have done it as a "troll", but other people may have something similar to this question and look for the thread hoping somone would give a legitimate reply to something.
> 
> ...


R
Nah, most intelligence work is done in the pub. 😄


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## drop bear (Jul 24, 2021)

Rat said:


> Only thing i can think of is tactical shootign classes or more commercial based training.    I know kembatize brand does, i forgot what they are called, immediate violence drills or something?      Basiically, you get taken somewhere, and a compeltely random and imemdiate thing is done to you, or chain of things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hard sparring does the same thing. Because at some point someone is going to flip out and you are not sparring anymore.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Hard sparring does the same thing. Because at some point someone is going to flip out and you are not sparring anymore.


Ehh, depends how you define sparring, sparring is more sport focused.     its more sterile to rules, as opposed to the type of force on force sudden violence is.   sudden violence is more random, and you have no idea whats going on (indicative to non sport applications) in sport you know both of you are going to throw down in some rule set.

i consider both force on force, just sparring is more sport focused and sterile, as opposed to other types.  (for clarity in the above, as i forgot to write it and couldnt shove it in elsewhere)


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## drop bear (Jul 24, 2021)

Rat said:


> Ehh, depends how you define sparring, sparring is more sport focused.     its more sterile to rules, as opposed to the type of force on force sudden violence is.   sudden violence is more random, and you have no idea whats going on (indicative to non sport applications) in sport you know both of you are going to throw down in some rule set.
> 
> i consider both force on force, just sparring is more sport focused and sterile, as opposed to other types.  (for clarity in the above, as i forgot to write it and couldnt shove it in elsewhere)



Yeah. A while back I had to prove 2+2=4.

And the way I did that was to show that all of maths makes sense.

Anyway.  Sparring is all of maths. But it exists because the parts make sense.

So when a guy flips out and puts a rush on you. Or you slip on the mat or just get caught. And you have to suddenly swim the deep water. You are engaging those same processes as if you were walking down the street and some random leaps out of the shadows and attacks you.

If I can make the parts work then I win at sparring. And the same if I get jumped all of a sudden for no reason

This idea that you have to lull me in to a dark room and ambush me for me to have a plan to address that isn't really as correct and is more of a self defense myth.

It is very unlikely that someone will attack me in a manner that is so far removed from that sterile application that the basic concept will work against me.

Imagine all I can do is good clinching and throw hard punches.






That is almost 90% of any sort of attack solved.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> i consider both force on force, just sparring is more sport focused and sterile,


You do differentiate the two, but this quote seems like you're equating them?  The force level and other thing are different as I detail below:


drop bear said:


> So when a guy flips out and puts a rush on you. Or you slip on the mat or just get caught. And you have to suddenly swim the deep water. You are engaging those same processes as if you were walking down the street and some random leaps out of the shadows and attacks you.


No, to both of these ideas.  While many of the skills in sparring can be applied to the street, these two situations and the "processes" are quite different.

   1.  In sparring, the goal is generally to score, not to inflict bodily damage.
   2.  Thus, the power and depth of penetration will not be as great. 
   3.  Sparring has restricted targets and techniques.  Real fight, anything goes, no safety net.
   4.  Sparring can use more "high risk" techniques as the danger factor is less.  Street fighting is no place for fancy techniques or tricky tactics. 
   5.  A match may last 3 minutes or more.  A real fight will likely be over in 1, so maximum damage in the minimum amount of time is the strategy.  End it ASAP before the X factor bites you in the rear.
   6.  You enter a sparring match fully prepared, expecting, to fight.  And while you should have good situational awareness when walking at night, even _occasionally_ visualizing possible scenarios as you do so, when it actually happens it's still a surprise requiring an immediate ramp-up.

All these factors combine to require a different mind set for the two activities.  The possibility of severe damage or death is a game changer.  As drop bear notes, there can be high stress instances in sparring, but _nothing_ like the real thing. 

To sum it all up, the deep-seated, in your primal gut, _intent_ to cause severe bodily harm by _any_ means possible is something no sport can replicate.  Even heavily padded full power drills (they can get close and give the best simulation to the real thing) are not the real thing.

Beware of seeing these two things as very similar to each other.


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## drop bear (Jul 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> 1. In sparring, the goal is generally to score, not to inflict bodily damage.
> 2. Thus, the power and depth of penetration will not be as great.
> 3. Sparring has restricted targets and techniques. Real fight, anything goes, no safety net.
> 4. Sparring can use more "high risk" techniques as the danger factor is less. Street fighting is no place for fancy techniques or tricky tactics.
> ...



It depends how you learn.

You can learn by rote or learn by technique. And then everything has to match the situation you have trained. The problem you have is then you have to learn thousands of techniques. You have to experience thousands of different situations to cover all the bases.

Then things like a 3 minute fight and a 1 minute fight are thes separate things that you have to train specifically. Or you have to be fully expecting a fight to be able to function.

Or you can train by concept. And then you need to train a lot less things because they fit together all a bit more easily. 

Again say all I trained was a really good clinch and hitting people hard. 

In a one minute fight clinch hit them hard. 

In a high risk fight clinch hit them hard.

You are ambushed clinch hit them hard.

And so on. 

One basic concept covers all these bases. And from there you have this platform to build on. So you have a bit more time and space to adjust to any surprises that might come your way. 

Really all you are doing is working out what the guy wants and you are basically denying him that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> In a one minute fight clinch hit them hard.
> 
> In a high risk fight clinch hit them hard.
> 
> ...


I like your finish move too.

https://i.postimg.cc/MGg2JkSF/clinch-uppercut.gif


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> You do differentiate the two, but this quote seems like you're equating them? The force level and other thing are different as I detail below:


Typographical error,    I reversed the order.    

Sparring and sudden volence are force on force, but nothing a like beyond being force on force.   The force level in either can very quite a lot, but it all depends how you define both.          Like you could have no armour for OPFOR/BLUEFOR so you have to pull your punches on them, and sparring can look like a actual fight or be one as a example.    Some people consider sparring to be synonomous with fighting just not at an event.   In other words the diffrent in fighting and sparring to some is, where they do it, not level of force. 

Thats to explain my point further. 


The confusion may just be my writing order/i put the "depends how you define them" point in there.   I do consider sparring and sudden violence two seperate things, just in the broader catergory of force on force.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. A while back I had to prove 2+2=4.
> 
> And the way I did that was to show that all of maths makes sense.
> 
> ...


They are both force on force, if you dont want to do sport then sparring isnt of much use to you, if you take away all the marketing etc, they are both with resiting parties.   they arent directly comprable beyond they are both force on force.

although bad training practises or using it as a one trick poney/marketing tool may have skewed the actual view on it, given i dont think there is exactly a course you can go on to set it up well, not as easily accesable as courses/education on how to set up sparring.

The note to take for sudden violence is, you need to know the context, as if the attackers are pretending to be somone less skilled than they are, they probbly arent going to pull out a 540 kick, and intetionally limit themselves as best as they can do it.    Second, i can see why somehwere may do a day 1 test, and a day 7 test for a week long course, so you get a base line of how they performed in the scenerio, and then test them after the course of instruction, or along on. 

you dont really need to know the context for sparring as much, just loose rules they follow if any, and you can probbly guess by what they are wearing which sport they are doing/ambient gym sounds and enviroment.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 26, 2021)

Rat said:


> They are both force on force, if you dont want to do sport then sparring isnt of much use to you, if you take away all the marketing etc, they are both with resiting parties.   they arent directly comprable beyond they are both force on force.
> 
> although bad training practises or using it as a one trick poney/marketing tool may have skewed the actual view on it, given i dont think there is exactly a course you can go on to set it up well, not as easily accesable as courses/education on how to set up sparring.
> 
> ...



If you add role play you also add another dimension of silliness.


----------



## Steve (Jul 26, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> You do differentiate the two, but this quote seems like you're equating them?  The force level and other thing are different as I detail below:
> 
> No, to both of these ideas.  While many of the skills in sparring can be applied to the street, these two situations and the "processes" are quite different.
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that boxers, thai boxers, San Shou boxers, MMA fighters, etc, are not training to deliver strikes with power and "depth of penetration"?  Or are you suggesting that they could be MORE powerful if they didn't spar?  Because that sounds kind of silly, frankly.



isshinryuronin said:


> 3.  Sparring has restricted targets and techniques.  Real fight, anything goes, no safety net.



Are you suggesting then that someone who doesn't spar is more capable of hitting what they're aiming for than someone who does? Or maybe that someone who is training to hit your face, abdomen, liver, thigh, knee, or other "legal" targets will be less able to hit another target than someone who doesn't spar?   Because, again, that sounds kind of silly.  



isshinryuronin said:


> 4.  Sparring can use more "high risk" techniques as the danger factor is less.  Street fighting is no place for fancy techniques or tricky tactics.



Isn't this counter to your last point, which is that sparring is too restrictive.  Seems like in the streets one would want an arsenal of effective, well trained techniques.  Because in a "real fight, anything goes, no safety net."  



isshinryuronin said:


> 5.  A match may last 3 minutes or more.  A real fight will likely be over in 1, so maximum damage in the minimum amount of time is the strategy.  End it ASAP before the X factor bites you in the rear.



Okay, which is more likely to succeed, the guy who trains for a three minute fight and has to fight for one, or the guy who trains for a one minute fight but has to fight for three?  



isshinryuronin said:


> 6.  You enter a sparring match fully prepared, expecting, to fight.  And while you should have good situational awareness when walking at night, even _occasionally_ visualizing possible scenarios as you do so, when it actually happens it's still a surprise requiring an immediate ramp-up.



So, take a guy who is well trained to fight, and work with them on situational awareness.  The two are unrelated.  You can be situationally aware and unable to fight and get mugged, even if you see it coming.  You can, as I think you're myopically focusing on, lack situational awareness and get mugged, even though you are a skilled fighter.  I think the best option would be to do both.  



isshinryuronin said:


> All these factors combine to require a different mind set for the two activities.  The possibility of severe damage or death is a game changer.  As drop bear notes, there can be high stress instances in sparring, but _nothing_ like the real thing.



the real question then is, even if we agree on this, how does not learning to fight help with this?  



isshinryuronin said:


> To sum it all up, the deep-seated, in your primal gut, _intent_ to cause severe bodily harm by _any_ means possible is something no sport can replicate.  Even heavily padded full power drills (they can get close and give the best simulation to the real thing) are not the real thing.
> 
> Beware of seeing these two things as very similar to each other.


I cannot roll my eyes enough at this.  I mean, being the most generous as one can be, it's a classic non sequitor.   Even if we agree on the premise, that sport cannot replicate the "primal gut, _intent_ to cause severe bodily harm by _any means possible," _it does not follow that non-sport training is, therefore, more "real."  

It's like saying that you cannot replicate realistic wood look and feel with composite decking (a premise which we can agree on), and therefore, cardboard is a better alternative for building your deck.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jul 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> Are you suggesting that boxers, thai boxers, San Shou boxers, MMA fighters, etc, are not training to deliver strikes with power and "depth of penetration"? Or are you suggesting that they could be MORE powerful if they didn't spar? Because that sounds kind of silly, frankly.


In amateur boxing, the power of the punch does not affect the scoring, as in point karate competition.  A hit is a hit.  Full contact professional fighters are in a separate class where power does affect the outcome more so.  What is very silly is concluding what I posted even remotely suggested that they could be more powerful if they didn't spar???


Steve said:


> Are you suggesting then that someone who doesn't spar is more capable of hitting what they're aiming for than someone who does? Or maybe that someone who is training to hit your face, abdomen, liver, thigh, knee, or other "legal" targets will be less able to hit another target than someone who doesn't spar? Because, again, that sounds kind of silly.


No where did I remotely suggest that hitting to "restricted" targets would hinder hitting other targets.  It is very silly to jump to such illogical conclusions.  Your thought process is faulty.


Steve said:


> Isn't this counter to your last point, which is that sparring is too restrictive.


When I said "high risk" techniques, it referred to moves that leave you very vulnerable should you miss and those that have a low probability of landing.  The risk-reward ratio is not there.  This can be overlooked more in sparring - could be deadly in actual combat.  Again, you have misinterpreted my post.


Steve said:


> Okay, which is more likely to succeed, the guy who trains for a three minute fight and has to fight for one, or the guy who trains for a one minute fight but has to fight for three?


Endurance training methods were not my point.  I agree that it's better to train for the worst, but my point was simply to state that one's mind set and strategy would be different in these two cases.  In an actual street fight, the MAIN strategy should be to end it ASAP.  Once again, your response is a _non_ _sequitor_.


Steve said:


> the real question then is, even if we agree on this, how does not learning to fight help with this?


What????
I've never seen a response so wrong on so many points.  Either you are purposely misreading, or are looking at it with (perhaps) a sub-conscious distorted filter, or just being difficult.  If none of these, please read future posts slower and with a clear mind.


----------



## Steve (Jul 26, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> In amateur boxing, the power of the punch does not affect the scoring, as in point karate competition.  A hit is a hit.  Full contact professional fighters are in a separate class where power does affect the outcome more so.  What is very silly is concluding what I posted even remotely suggested that they could be more powerful if they didn't spar???
> 
> No where did I remotely suggest that hitting to "restricted" targets would hinder hitting other targets.  It is very silly to jump to such illogical conclusions.  Your thought process is faulty.
> 
> ...


Rolling my eyes.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> Rolling my eyes.


I was tagged for that for some reason, this is the post that shows when i click "quoted your post".




drop bear said:


> If you add role play you also add another dimension of silliness.


How so?   You roleplay an event to assess how well you do it in, this is well established everywhere and even in martial arts.    

Definition:
"act out or perform the part of a person or character, for example as a technique in training or psychotherapy."

You are technically doing it in many more areas than i cited.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 27, 2021)

@Dirty Dog  I think your site glitched, i dont see steve quoting my reply yet i have a alert that says he did, nor do i see the edit marker.   Begs the question if isshinryu would get a quote alert for this or not.  

Just in case @isshinryuronin   Steve quoted you above.


----------



## Steve (Jul 27, 2021)

Okay.  Now that I have access to a keyboard, I'll try and connect the dots for you.  


isshinryuronin said:


> In amateur boxing, the power of the punch does not affect the scoring, as in point karate competition.  A hit is a hit.  Full contact professional fighters are in a separate class where power does affect the outcome more so.  What is very silly is concluding what I posted even remotely suggested that they could be more powerful if they didn't spar???


Full contact professionals spar.  Seriously.  This isn't rocket science.  You said:


> 1.  In sparring, the goal is generally to score, not to inflict bodily damage.
> 2_.  Thus, the power and depth of penetration will not be as great._


I asked the question whether full contact fighters.. even amateurs (though why you think that matters is beyond me), are not training to deliver strikes with power and depth of penetration?  The answer is yes, they do.  They spar, and they are able to deliver strikes with power and depth of penetration.  

Whether folks who do not spare can do the same is not clear.  


isshinryuronin said:


> No where did I remotely suggest that hitting to "restricted" targets would hinder hitting other targets.  It is very silly to jump to such illogical conclusions.  Your thought process is faulty.


You said:


> 3.  Sparring has restricted targets and techniques.  Real fight, anything goes, no safety net.



So, are you now saying that restricted targets and techniques is not a problem?  Fine.  I agree.  Makes it strange that you brought it up, though.  



isshinryuronin said:


> When I said "high risk" techniques, it referred to moves that leave you very vulnerable should you miss and those that have a low probability of landing.  The risk-reward ratio is not there.  This can be overlooked more in sparring - could be deadly in actual combat.  Again, you have misinterpreted my post.


You said:  


> 4.  Sparring can use more "high risk" techniques as the danger factor is less.  Street fighting is no place for fancy techniques or tricky tactics.


There are two ways to interpret this.  It's either two completely unrelated statements, making me wonder why you included them both in the same bullet.  Or you are suggesting that the former precludes the latter (i.e., that being skilled using techniques you consider "high risk" based on whatever arbitrary criteria you have is a disadvantage in a street fight.)  Does that help?  



isshinryuronin said:


> Endurance training methods were not my point.  I agree that it's better to train for the worst, but my point was simply to state that one's mind set and strategy would be different in these two cases.  In an actual street fight, the MAIN strategy should be to end it ASAP.  Once again, your response is a _non_ _sequitor_.


You said: 


> 5.  A match may last 3 minutes or more.  A real fight will likely be over in 1, so maximum damage in the minimum amount of time is the strategy.  End it ASAP before the X factor bites you in the rear.


Again, context matters and you say two things.  Both that a match lasts 3 minutes or longer, and that a "real fight" will "likely be over in 1."   This is 100% an endurance statement, and given that you are literally pulling these two statements out of your rear end, my recommendation would be to train for a fight that lasts an hour, so that if it only lasts a minute you won't gas out.  

Also, i realize I might have given you a new vocabulary word (non sequitur).  While I fully support your excitement to use it in conversation, I suggest you look it up to learn what it actually means before using it again.  



isshinryuronin said:


> What????
> 
> I've never seen a response so wrong on so many points.  Either you are purposely misreading, or are looking at it with (perhaps) a sub-conscious distorted filter, or just being difficult.  If none of these, please read future posts slower and with a clear mind.



You said:  



isshinryuronin said:


> 6.  You enter a sparring match fully prepared, expecting, to fight.  And while you should have good situational awareness when walking at night, even _occasionally_ visualizing possible scenarios as you do so, when it actually happens it's still a surprise requiring an immediate ramp-up.
> 
> All these factors combine to require a different mind set for the two activities.  The possibility of severe damage or death is a game changer.  As drop bear notes, there can be high stress instances in sparring, but _nothing_ like the real thing.
> 
> ...



And so the question is, how does not learning to fight help?  You seem to have a very martial idea of self defense, but you discount the benefits of actually learning to fight.  It really doesn't make much sense. 



> Either you are purposely misreading, or are looking at it with (perhaps) a sub-conscious distorted filter, or just being difficult.  If none of these, please read future posts slower and with a clear mind.



I really, really recommend you take your own advice.   And perhaps do a quick google search for common logical fallacies so you use the terms correctly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> There are two ways to interpret this. It's either two completely unrelated statements, making me wonder why you included them both in the same bullet. Or you are suggesting that the former precludes the latter (i.e., that being skilled using techniques you consider "high risk" based on whatever arbitrary criteria you have is a disadvantage in a street fight.) Does that help?


I think I get what he was at on this one. The best analogy is hitting for home runs - it has a high risk (of strikeout) and high reward in the ruleset. So in competition there may be techniques that present enough reward (chance to win) to offset the risk (of losing). Where the risk is increased (risk of being beaten into serious injury), that reward (still a chance to "win" the encounter) may not be sufficient.

If I tried, I could probably come up with some examples, but I'm not convinced the issue is a major one. If you train only for competition (especially if only for a single ruleset), you're likely to develop some gaps that leave risky openings. In most cases, I don't think those openings change the math of an encounter with someone with little or no training.


----------



## KungfukennyG (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


Wow, someone with this attitude needs therapy a lot more than martial arts. An angry, obviously unhappy person looking to learn how to kill. I'm glad I'm just an ***hat with nearly 50 years of martial arts training who never thinks about killing anyone.


----------



## Gyakuto (Jul 27, 2021)

You are lucky enough to have Ameri-do-te in the US. Somebody should point the OP in Master Ken’s direction…stamp the groin…


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## Jeffm (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


What you find in yourself is going to merge with your training.  So as far as being given lethal training you may wish to look at martial art vs martial law in application. Remember, we are just jelly fish on land with bones.  After training somewhere though you may look back and revisit the issue brought forward.


----------



## Steve (Jul 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think I get what he was at on this one. The best analogy is hitting for home runs - it has a high risk (of strikeout) and high reward in the ruleset. So in competition there may be techniques that present enough reward (chance to win) to offset the risk (of losing). Where the risk is increased (risk of being beaten into serious injury), that reward (still a chance to "win" the encounter) may not be sufficient.


So, in this case, we should never, ever see a walk off home run win, because by this logic, the risk/reward is too great.  One should only ever hit for contact and try to get on base.  And the logic of the statement would also suggest that a person who hits for power will be unable to change his tactics should the situation warrant.  In other words, a slugger will never be able to bunt when the situation calls for it. 

But we do see walk off home runs, and you know what?  They're always hit by people who are skilled at hitting home runs, people who practice hitting for power.



gpseymour said:


> If I tried, I could probably come up with some examples, but I'm not convinced the issue is a major one. If you train only for competition (especially if only for a single ruleset), you're likely to develop some gaps that leave risky openings. In most cases, I don't think those openings change the math of an encounter with someone with little or no training.


Training _only _for competition is not the same thing.  And it also doesn't answer the question of what then fills that gap?  If not competition then what?  This is that self defense hokum I mentioned in another thread... this idea that the absence of something magically creates something else that is better.  I could say that I don't eat meat because it causes cancer.  Okay, fine... we could debate that assertion, but whether true or not, it doesn't answer the question, what do I eat in lieu of meat?  I haven't said anything about what I do eat.  This is how self defense discussions tend to go.  A lot of talk about what not to do, but never an answer of what they do that is "better."


----------



## Rick Abel (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...











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					www.combatshootingandtactics.com


----------



## Fightingiseasy (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you need to join the army man. That’s real life or death training. But honestly if you look hard enough there are grimy mma places and gyms that will beat the tar off you to toughen you up.


----------



## crshieh (Jul 27, 2021)

I've never trained with him, but I would take a look at Adam Chan in Canada.  He teaches "martial arts wing chun", but he also has more practical methods teaching "at home" when he takes off the martial arts hat.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> So, in this case, we should never, ever see a walk off home run win, because by this logic, the risk/reward is too great.  One should only ever hit for contact and try to get on base.  And the logic of the statement would also suggest that a person who hits for power will be unable to change his tactics should the situation warrant.  In other words, a slugger will never be able to bunt when the situation calls for it.
> 
> But we do see walk off home runs, and you know what?  They're always hit by people who are skilled at hitting home runs, people who practice hitting for power.


I think his point was that sport does reward these risky plays (like hitting for home runs). So we should expect to see walk-off home runs, even though the attempt comes with an elevated risk of strikeout vs. what we might call "technical hitting" where the attempt is to get the ball in play with the lowest chance of strikeout and greatest chance of getting to base.




> Training _only _for competition is not the same thing.


Agreed. That was my point. And even then, I think the risk is minimal with rulesets that don't reward risky stuff overly much. So somebody training for MMA competition - even if they train exclusively for competition - is probably not developing any problematic high-risk habits.

I even suspect that home run hitter might have an advantage over me in a fight, if we both have bats. Ow.


----------



## Blackjacket (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


We're all capable of quickly killing someone, but I'm not surprised you can't find what you are looking for as most of us don't want to carry that kind of attitude around too close to our surface; there are consequences and costs to everything. Most of the people I know who are really good at that sort of thing are now in prison. At the end of the day the person most likely to kill you is yourself, bad diet, stress, substance abuse and above all a bad attitude.


Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


----------



## Steve (Jul 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think his point was that sport does reward these risky plays (like hitting for home runs). So we should expect to see walk-off home runs, even though the attempt comes with an elevated risk of strikeout vs. what we might call "technical hitting" where the attempt is to get the ball in play with the lowest chance of strikeout and greatest chance of getting to base.



And my point is that the more you're actually good at, the more options you have available, and the more likely you will be to improvise in a situation based on the context of that situation.  You seem to think I don't understand his point.  I do, and I think it's ridiculous.  Instead of trying to explain what you think he was thinking, why not share your own opinions?



gpseymour said:


> Agreed. That was my point. And even then, I think the risk is minimal with rulesets that don't reward risky stuff overly much. So somebody training for MMA competition - even if they train exclusively for competition - is probably not developing any problematic high-risk habits.
> 
> I even suspect that home run hitter might have an advantage over me in a fight, if we both have bats. Ow.



Terrific.  

And now I'm looking forward to reading your posts where you explain to @isshinryuronin what you think I'm trying to say.  Should be good fun.


----------



## cgtomash (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I



Join the army where they would teach such things. If you are in hand to hand combat with the enemy, it would be kill ore be killed. Other than that, good luck finding such instruction.


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## andras (Jul 27, 2021)

Google "Mental Health Counseling for Anger Management and Delusions Near Me".

If you're lucky, the liberals will have funded it for you with tax dollars.


----------



## kfman (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


Try Krav Maga.


----------



## nigebj (Jul 27, 2021)

OP - seems to have gone, but as may have said killing is easy - the question is why that is what you want to learn? Are you in a situation (country, domestic, whatever) where your life is threatened? If so, you don't have time to learn (and 5K isn't going to get you the instruction, repetition, and practice to make a difference.

General. There was a lot of back-and-forth on sparring. I personally feel that a surprise attack in the street is very different to anything you will find in a ring. When you step in a ring you are pre-wired for combat, to think your system will go from quietly enjoying the evening to 'fight mode' instantly should you be attacked is - IMO and IME, naive for anyone other than those with military training. Your first response will be "what's happening", then "oh I'm being attacked - why?" and then finally "**** I need to protect myself and get out of here".

I have been stabbed in a crowd, no prior warning and did not realize until the second strike was on it's way (yes you may not feel a sharp, small blade much). In another situation I fell for the "what's the time trick" - I was only young, give me a break. In both cases there was no lead in confrontation - just "we're fighting". I am unconvinced ring work prepares you for that. I mention this not to challenge anyone's ego, but in the hopes that anyone whose confidence in themselves is built on that at least gives it a second thought before relying on it.


----------



## George Kohler (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


Look into a shooting course... like Chuck Pressburg's Presscheck Consulting courses. He doesn't live in Washington anymore but he still does a lot courses there.









						Presscheck Training and Consulting
					

Courses for Marksmanship, Close Quarters Combat, Urban Operations, Night Vision, and more.




					presscheckconsulting.com


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## Phoenix44 (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


I actually thought this was a serious matter, and based on 25 years of experience as a martial artist, I did have a few suggestions for you. But then I got to the end of your post, where you called me an "***hat liberal." Maybe someone else can help you. Maybe someone with expertise in another field.


----------



## nigebj (Jul 27, 2021)

Phoenix44 said:


> I actually thought this was a serious matter, and based on 25 years of experience as a martial artist, I did have a few suggestions for you. But then I got to the end of your post, where you called me an "***hat liberal." Maybe someone else can help you. Maybe someone with expertise in another field.


Yeah, I should have read to the end - trolling it seems. But then again, someone mid-thread pointed out that there may be people looking more seriously for this kind of thing. As others have said, this is more likely to be found in the firearms training world than MA world. There are a bunch of adrenaline driven courses here in CO which claim to give this kind of exposure. But it seems to me that anything you don't live-and-breath for many years is unlikely to prepare you for kill or be killed - so if you are not ex-military it seems unlikely you'll get to a level of competence, probably just false-confidence.


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## BigMotor (Jul 27, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> killing is easy, its the not going to prison part thats hard to figure out.
> sometimes its better to get close to the person and just do little things that erode their sense of well being as you get to watch their soul die a little more each day until finally that person is nothing more than an empty shell.
> boowhaahahaha


I didn't go to prison after I was charged with murder; and that was hard, since it took a jury trial, and an acquittal.

After my acqittal, two of his moron buddies, challenged me to a knife fight. It was dark and they couldn’t see my .45 Auto, that I had in my pocket.

Its a good thing that they never pressed their luck, because I would have killed them too. Your model needs a lot of work, since getting close to psychopaths doesn’t work.

And since this is a discussion board, I am probably the only one here that has killed, outside of combat. Or I am the only one that will admit it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> And my point is that the more you're actually good at, the more options you have available, and the more likely you will be to improvise in a situation based on the context of that situation.  You seem to think I don't understand his point.  I do, and I think it's ridiculous.  Instead of trying to explain what you think he was thinking, why not share your own opinions?


Apparently I misunderstood one of your posts - I thought you were reading his post saying something different. My opinion is apparently pretty close to yours - that practicing more options gives you a better skillset for improvising.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 27, 2021)

*Reminder to all users:*

Political discussion is not allowed on MartialTalk.

_______
Gerry Seymour
*MartialTalk Moderator*
@gpseymour


----------



## Dlangly (Jul 27, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


First thing there should be a long lecture somewhere about making sure what you do will be legally defensible. You kill a guy for stepping on your toe your going to prison. 

Second the really intense groups, the best ones are going to ask for a background check, physical, and a psychiatric evaluation. Have them ready upon request.

Krav Maga is close to where you want to be. They have weekend intensive and weeklong instructor courses, which aren't bad.

Get Tough book by Fairbain is good
Kill or get killed by Rex Applegate
On Killing by Dave Grossman

Martial blade camp Google it.
Jim Grovers Combatives Series (Videos), he also has a training facility.

Camps and weeklong training siminars are seldom cheap, not for the faint of heart, expect a long liability waiver and have good health insurance. Expect to be injured and for the love of God invest in a good martial arts cup, not an insert.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 27, 2021)

BigMotor said:


> Your model needs a lot of work, since getting close to psychopaths doesn’t work.


It's called humor and irony. Obviously if I was going to psychologically punish someone for a long period of time, I would be the psychopath wouldn't I.
And I was thinking more along the lines of family relationships. It had nothing to do with you.


----------



## cismab (Jul 28, 2021)

Wow, have to chime in here. Agree with Unkogami.  All people know how to "kill", sane people try to avoid killing unless in a kill or be killed situation.

Martial, Combat, Defense... or whatever you want to call it... has to do with knowing WHEN and HOW to react: targeting, speed, timing, anatomy, cause and effect, fine vs gross motor skills, defensive and offensive of weaponry, physiological and psychological issues, fight/flight or FREEZE and so much more. This is why real martial artists go through years / decades of training and continue to hone their skills. "Experience" can't be taught (via a couple of get-to-the point lessons). It's like saying you want to know what a med school graduate has learned, but you're age 6 and want to have the skills of a surgeon instantly.  Yes, there are watered down "belt factory" schools out there, but there are also schools that will teach you how to properly defend yourself. It takes time, which obviously some are not willing to do. We live in an instant gratification world. For those who are willing - look for schools that don't brag on how many black belts they've produced or how many trophy's their schools have won. Look for ones that their curriculum is geared towards self defense (in practical application and not designed in theory) and not sport martial arts. Not bashing sport martial arts (those students are fast in their skills and tournaments are fun), but there is a mindset difference between sport and practical application skills. I shot on a sport rifle team decades ago and even though I have an expert sharpshooters aim, that doesn't mean I had the mindset to fire a rifle at another living being with the intent to take their life. 

To kill is PHYSICALLY easy and can be a single action (pull a trigger for instance), the aftermath is the difficult part (law, justification, memory and mind games, the sheer biological gross factor, living with your actions for the remainder of your life). 

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## TKD Dano (Jul 28, 2021)

Dear Luthor : 

Saw your comment , appreciate your frustration , did not check other responses  no time . but I've done the MA thing & I understand it's not the answer for all : So here you go, check out/get in touch with Raw Combat International (RCI) Luke Halloway ? not sure on spelling . He is a highly skilled MA in traditional MA BUT !!! He does not teach that , he DOES teach COMBATIVES , the down & dirty no frills get it done & walk away , but he also understands there are legal aspects to violence too . Should be able to find him with a google search . He is an Australian National living & making a living teaching his skill set in Japan & wait for it in Seminars around the globe . Cheers hope it helps .


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jul 28, 2021)

Bro just take martial arts


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 31, 2021)

Luthor said:


> Ok thanks.  Forget about is.  Waste of time here. Seems like everyone is either deaf, dumb, or just plain stupid.


If you don't want to waste your time here then I suggest you try growing up first.


----------



## tim po (Dec 23, 2021)

cismab said:


> "Experience" can't be taught


i hope the OP is still reading, sounds like he is in a difficult place and his frustration is obvious. 

only we can ever really teach ourselves all that we most desire to learn. others can be guides, mentors, and offer much possibility for us to learn, but that learning is our responsibility, not our teachers.

in short, if you can't find the one teacher to teach you all the things, keep looking. keep learning. you need to learn 10,000 things to learn the one thing. become the teacher you seek. be patient. and please don't go out and kill someone in the name of learning how to do it, ok?


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU (Jan 12, 2022)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...Wow, your something else. Anyway, I've taught Kenpo karate and I'm 5'2" and small boned and I've defended myself about 7 time over my years, against big guys. If you know what you are doing, then one move is all it takes. Try YouTube


Sifu
Puyallup, Wa


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## Instructor (Jan 13, 2022)

Luthor said:


> Hello to whom ever it may concern.  Here is the deal :  I am having a real ***** of a time 'finding' out WHERE in heck I might find and pay for what I would be inclined to refer to as 'immersion' training for lethal self defense...and I mean absolutely Lethal.   And I don't mean 'martial art', I mean more along the lines of 'get it done and kill the guy who is trying to kill YOU' type instruction.  I am not a big man, and am not young anymore either.   But---I have been lifting wieghts for my entire---life.  AND, I am a former pro-mountain biker, so though I am 'thin' and small boned, I'm fairly tough, have built in strength from all my years of athletics, and very good endurance.  I don't mind if I have to shell out 5 grand to access an immersion course --so long as it is the REAL DEAL.  But I'll be damned if I can't find ANYONE....ANY WHERE who has ANY clue about 'where' I might find such a course.   They all just keep trying to point me in the direction of entering into some form of martial art, and I am NOT interested in 'that' approach.  More like mastering a brutal and effective use of the basic boot knife, and or, in conjunction with a hand gun, and or even a wooden club or club and knife.  ..Just...somebody...does ANY one have clue here about what I am looking for...???  I want to become 'capable' of quickly killing someone who is trying to KILL ME as the way I see it, I don't think that 'reality' as we know it is going to be as 'nice' and 'peaceful' as we are all accustomed to and take for granted for all that much longer, it's just a 'gut' feeling.  ..I hope I am wrong of course, but I am adamant to make sure I am one of the people who is damned well READY and RIPE in case the **** hits the fan....so to speak.  ...Anyone???  And please, don't offer any stupid or wise-crack advice.  I'm not in the mood for *** hats.  Just someone who might think they know what I might be talking about.  I am in the Pacific Northwest, so it would of course be nice if I didn't have to 'fly' to a place....as I do--not--fly anymore thanks to all the *** hats liberal politicized virus horseshit agend etc etc add nausium....
> 
> Anyhow, thanks in advance to ANY one who has even a scant TRACE of bona fide, relevant input for me.
> 
> ...


Frankly the nearest gun range is what you need.


----------



## MrBigglesworth (Jan 30, 2022)

OP sounds suspiciously like that other dojo hopper character who froze whenever someone tried to hit him.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Two words, Mexican Judo.  (it's 4 if you count the first 2).


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