# Splashing Hands - Mr. Jim McNeil



## Carol (Feb 10, 2008)

Just found this Splashing Hands clip that was done by Mr. Jim McNeil.   

I don't particularly like the way he explains his work but I really, really like the concepts that he is showing.

Is anyone else familiar with this gentleman?

[yt]1M091-G3F4Y[/yt]


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## terryl965 (Feb 10, 2008)

Sorry Carol never heard of him


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## TaiChiTJ (Feb 10, 2008)

Yes, Carol he has been around for many years. thanks for posting this, I did not know a video that goes into some detail was put up. I believe that somewhere on MartialTalk there is a very long discussion of the style with many persons weighing in on the history, and different branches of it and so forth. 

Thanks Again!


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## Doc (Feb 11, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> Just found this Splashing Hands clip that was done by Mr. Jim McNeil.
> 
> I don't particularly like the way he explains his work but I really, really like the concepts that he is showing.
> 
> ...



I knew him, but not as well as some of my friends like Doug Wong, and Carl Totton, who actually studied with Lefiti regularly. Although we've had this discussion before, I think that McNeil has taken a conceptual methodology and turned into a style of his own. The same was done with Limalama, and even motion based kenpo, so that's not necessarily a bad thing. Some of the things he says has some merit, others don't account for the reality of combat body mechanics. Ideas still have to be translated into workable street mechanics.


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## kal (Mar 11, 2008)

Doc said:


> I think that McNeil has taken a conceptual methodology and turned into a style of his own.


I thought he learned this style from Lefiti and even got a black sash in it.



> Some of the things he says has some merit, others don't account for the reality of combat body mechanics. .


Which parts don't you believe to work?

I was under the impression that Splashing Hands was a very street-oriented system.


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## arnisador (Mar 11, 2008)

Interesting. I can see some material that reminds me of Okinawan Karate! It's fascinating to see the connections.


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## kal (Mar 11, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Interesting. I can see some material that reminds me of Okinawan Karate!


 
That makes sense. There may well be a link.

Wasn't Okinawan karate originally derived from Southern Shaolin temple arts? Fukien Shaolin IIRC.

Splashing Hands was also developed at the southern Shaolin temple and was used by the door guards. So there may indeed have been a connection with this art and Okinawan karate.


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## Doc (Mar 11, 2008)

kal said:


> I thought he learned this style from Lefiti and even got a black sash in it.


I don't remember him getting a black sash, and neither do the folks I've talked to who studied, but that doesn't mean anything really. He did study with Lefiti. But as I've said before, the "Splashing Hands" system he teaches is not the same, nor was it truly a 'style' unto itself under Sifu Lefiti. It seemed to be more a 'sub-style' within a style, and in the midst of evolving into many other styles.


> I was under the impression that Splashing Hands was a very street-oriented system.


Street oriented method under Sifu Lefiti for sure. Beyond that is anyones opinion.


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## littlevinnie (Mar 11, 2008)

yeah my sifu knows him and teaches chen tai chi under him
ive also met one of his student in splashing hand who reccomends
him very highly sifu mcneil teaches lot of interesting style and is
highly skilled

visit  www.littlenineheaven.com/                   US

www.manchesterkungfu.com/                UK



Hope this will help
little vinnie


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## arnisador (Mar 11, 2008)

kal said:


> Wasn't Okinawan karate originally derived from Southern Shaolin temple arts? Fukien Shaolin IIRC.
> 
> Splashing Hands was also developed at the southern Shaolin temple and was used by the door guards. So there may indeed have been a connection with this art and Okinawan karate.



Yes, Okinawan Karate comes principally from Southern Chinese Kung Fu, so it's no surprise!


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## kal (Mar 12, 2008)

edit: double post


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## kal (Mar 12, 2008)

> I don't remember him getting a black sash, and neither do the folks I've talked to who studied, but that doesn't mean anything really. He did study with Lefiti. But as I've said before, the "Splashing Hands" system he teaches is not the same, nor was it truly a 'style' unto itself under Sifu Lefiti. It seemed to be more a 'sub-style' within a style, and in the midst of evolving into many other styles.




Thanks for the information. I have never met McNeil, but it sounds quite out of character for him to create his own style. In every interview I have read, he consistently talks about his belief in keeping styles pure and not changing what his teachers taught him. I could be mistaken though. This is just the impression I got from his interviews.

Another question: When Lefiti gave a black sash, do you know what it was awarded in? Was he giving the sash in his own style, or was it in something else, like Mok Gar?


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## Doc (Mar 12, 2008)

kal said:


> Thanks for the information. I have never met McNeil, but it sounds quite out of character for him to create his own style. In every interview I have read, he consistently talks about his belief in keeping styles pure and not changing what his teachers taught him. I could be mistaken though. This is just the impression I got from his interviews.
> 
> Another question: When Lefiti gave a black sash, do you know what it was awarded in? Was he giving the sash in his own style, or was it in something else, like Mok Gar?


Those I know of personally, it was Mok Gar. That's why I always said "Splashing Hands" was not so much a style as a method of teaching certain material. Splashing Hands ultimately either morphed into or had an influence on Lefiti's Gung fu, Lima Lama, Limalama, White Lotus, Ed Parker's kenpo-Karate, etc.


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## kal (Mar 12, 2008)

Doc said:


> Those I know of personally, it was Mok Gar. That's why I always said "Splashing Hands" was not so much a style as a method of teaching certain material. Splashing Hands ultimately either morphed into or had an influence on Lefiti's Gung fu, Lima Lama, Limalama, White Lotus, Ed Parker's kenpo-Karate, etc.


 
Thanks for that. Pretty interesting.

It would be good to try identify what came from Lefiti and what might have been added by McNeil. For example, do the people you know personally recall learning any animal forms?


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## Imua Kuntao (Mar 12, 2008)

Yes, Carol, he has been around awhile and those techniques are done in almost every martial art there is, only taught differently


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## Doc (Mar 12, 2008)

kal said:


> Thanks for that. Pretty interesting.
> 
> It would be good to try identify what came from Lefiti and what might have been added by McNeil. For example, do the people you know personally recall learning any animal forms?



I'll ask.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 12, 2008)

Doc said:


> I'll ask.


 
Hey, Chief!

When we were on the phone a coupla months back, you had some of Tiny's original boyz at the batcave hanging out and talking story. I'm fixin to get down there soon with Elisa, both for SL4, as well as for my nieces High School grad and my parents' 50th anniversary (too long a drive not to kill many birds with one stone). Do they still get by on a regular enough basis that I might get a chance to meet them?

Stay safe,

D.

PS -- Sol Kaihewalu is up this way for a seminar at the Danzan-ryu kilohana school in Campbell (Hans is one of Kufferaths old right hand guys, and also employs some kempo/kenpo & lua). I'll tell him you said howdy! Going to see if I can get him to open up about old days with Tiny...bring some fun tidbits back to the table. 

PPS -- Phone busted?


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## Doc (Mar 12, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Hey, Chief!
> 
> When we were on the phone a coupla months back, you had some of Tiny's original boyz at the batcave hanging out and talking story. I'm fixin to get down there soon with Elisa, both for SL4, as well as for my nieces High School grad and my parents' 50th anniversary (too long a drive not to kill many birds with one stone). Do they still get by on a regular enough basis that I might get a chance to meet them?


Let me know in advance, and I'll see if I can get them to come by.


> PS -- Sol Kaihewalu is up this way for a seminar at the Danzan-ryu kilohana school in Campbell (Hans is one of Kufferaths old right hand guys, and also employs some kempo/kenpo & lua). I'll tell him you said howdy! Going to see if I can get him to open up about old days with Tiny...bring some fun tidbits back to the table.


Sol is a good guy and an old friend from waaaaay back. Please give him my regards.


> PPS -- Phone busted?


Sick three weeks with flu - no sleep. Besides you haven't picked up recently anyway.


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## kal (Mar 13, 2008)

Doc said:


> I'll ask.


Thank you, Doc.


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## Carol (Mar 14, 2008)

Doc said:


> Sick three weeks with flu - no sleep. Besides you haven't picked up recently anyway.



Yeah, but he's had an excuse.  I don't.  :lol2:

P.S. Quit blocking your caller ID


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## Hand Sword (Mar 14, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Interesting. I can see some material that reminds me of Okinawan Karate! It's fascinating to see the connections.


 

Also some Silat styles I've studied.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 17, 2008)

Doc said:


> Sol is a good guy and an old friend from waaaaay back. Please give him my regards.


 
OK. So, Sol was up for a couple seminars...one in Sac area, and the other in Campbell. He had to go shortly after (coulodn't stick around for the luau), so I pried him in the spaces between drills while he was watching partered participants. Told him you said hi; he was pleased to hear of you again...says he thinks it's been about 4 years. And something about Honolulu? Also found out a little more about how tightly knit these polynesian fighting arts guys are...when I brough up Tiny, he said they were in-laws; one of Lefiti's siblings married one of Olohe's siblings. Being from Palama, grew up around kaju and Chow kempo; around some kenpo cats related to us when they were young.

I was thinking of this thread, and asked him who Tiny's top guys were, and where they could be found today. He insisted the top guy he knew was a light skinned black man who writes a lot, and switched over to Hung Gar (he thinks) after Tiny passed. I found myself wondering if this is da guy who hangs out with you oah deah sumtime.

The seminar itself had a very old-kenpo feel to it, combined with some absolutely wicked Hawaiian weapons. My favorite was a big, seriously oversized wooden fork with a 3 foot length of rope attached to it. The techs were to club the hands of the other guy je ewas using to hold his weapon, entangle him in the flexible, control him to the ground with a pointy-end of the stick to the spine, then jam the huge -- and very sharp -- wooden tines into the eye sockets. Needless to say, I got a little bit of a martial arts creeper playing with that one. Just vicious.

Be good, and call me when you can, and I'm not on the mat.

D.


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> OK. So, Sol was up for a couple seminars...one in Sac area, and the other in Campbell. He had to go shortly after (coulodn't stick around for the luau), so I pried him in the spaces between drills while he was watching partered participants. Told him you said hi; he was pleased to hear of you again...says he thinks it's been about 4 years. And something about Honolulu? Also found out a little more about how tightly knit these polynesian fighting arts guys are...when I brough up Tiny, he said they were in-laws; one of Lefiti's siblings married one of Olohe's siblings. Being from Palama, grew up around kaju and Chow kempo; around some kenpo cats related to us when they were young.


The first thing I learned from the Old Man is they are all related in some way. He used to say, "We're all cousins."


> I was thinking of this thread, and asked him who Tiny's top guys were, and where they could be found today. He insisted the top guy he knew was a light skinned black man who writes a lot, and switched over to Hung Gar (he thinks) after Tiny passed. I found myself wondering if this is da guy who hangs out with you oah deah sumtime.


Yeah, that's my long time friend Carl Totton. Remember we all grew up as kids in the Chinese Community with teachers like Tiny Lefiti, Ark Wong, Share Lew, Ralph Shun, John Leoning, Ed Parker, etc. We never looked at the historical significance of it all. Anyway Parker affectionately called him "Trottin Totten." He and I were just talking last week so I could answer a previous question on this thread about forms and such. He's just another one of those guys that few actually have heard of who has a rich background and quietly does his thing. Dr. Totten is alive and well teaching in Burbank, and has been at the same location for several decades. Parker and I would visit him often, and if you poke around you'll find him quietly listed as a 6th in Ed Parker's records, with the diploma prominently displayed in the school with my signature on the witness line.


> Be good, and call me when you can, and I'm not on the mat.
> 
> D.


You don't answer, but then neither do I lately. Catch you before I go to Europe at the end of the month. We'll be launching the SL4-Europe site soon. Take a peek here at what my student Kevin Mills is doing and tell me what you think. http://s78.photobucket.com/albums/j90/Maggdus/?action=view&current=KevinMillsSeminar.flv


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## kal (Mar 20, 2008)

So all of Lefiti's students didn't all die or stop training. 

It would be great to get Mr. Totton's input on this topic. As he was Lefiti's top student, he probably could confirm or deny if Lefiti called it Splashing Hands. He could also compare what he learned with what McNeil is teaching now.


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## Doc (Mar 20, 2008)

kal said:


> So all of Lefiti's students didn't all die or stop training.
> 
> It would be great to get Mr. Totton's input on this topic. As he was Lefiti's top student, he probably could confirm or deny if Lefiti called it Splashing Hands. He could also compare what he learned with what McNeil is teaching now.



No, I just talked to Carl the other day and he reminded me of some things. I just have to take the time to write then down. Simple answer, yes and no. And for the record Sifu Lefiti called it many things. "Splashing Hands" was just one of the terms he used, as he moved between Five Animal, Hung Gar, and his personal arts that split into two versions of Lima Lama, EPAK, etc. Not so simple, and not unlike Ed Parker who also had different versions and names for his arts. The confusion still exist there as well because in Parker's mind there was a clear division between early Kenpo-Karate, Chinese Kenpo, American Kenpo, and Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate while students see it as all the same in an evolution when its not. No different than Sifu Lefiti who was Ed Parkers' Senior under Ark Wong.


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## kal (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks Doc.

Yes I am looking forward to reading what you post when you find the time to write it down. I'd especially be interested to know if Mr. Totton recalls anything being said about the art coming from Taiwan (and being of Shaolin guard origin).

What you write about different arts vs. the same art in evolution ... very interesting. Do you think the same situation occurred with Jeet June Do and Aikido as Bruce Lee and Morihei Ueshiba also had their art go through many many changes over their lifetimes. When you compare Aikido in the 1930s to what is done now, it is like 2 different martial arts.


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## Doc (Mar 23, 2008)

kal said:


> Thanks Doc.
> 
> Yes I am looking forward to reading what you post when you find the time to write it down. I'd especially be interested to know if Mr. Totton recalls anything being said about the art coming from Taiwan (and being of Shaolin guard origin).
> 
> What you write about different arts vs. the same art in evolution ... very interesting. Do you think the same situation occurred with Jeet June Do and Aikido as Bruce Lee and Morihei Ueshiba also had their art go through many many changes over their lifetimes. When you compare Aikido in the 1930s to what is done now, it is like 2 different martial arts.



Yes very true. In terms of JKD, Bruce never had an art. WHat he had was a conceptual idea of how you should go about training, and the things that should be considered in the process. There were no "style" parameters or set curriculum. When he died, students created various JKD Conceptual Arts based on their own perspective way of doing things, but JKD as an art unto itself never existed.


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## kal (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks Doc.
I am pretty curious to see if what your friend Mr Totton remembers is different to what McNeil teaches as Splashing Hands. Did he say if he learned forms liek Four Corner and Animal Forms?


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