# Forms



## Flatlander (Jun 11, 2004)

I'll preface this by offering that the only person I've ever trained under is my current instructor, and would like to get a feeling for what goes on out there in the rest of the Modern Arnis community.  My question is to do with forms.  Are they usually taught both right lead/left lead (hand), various weapons in hand/emptyhand, standing up/on the knees/on the back, inclusively?


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## Guro Harold (Jun 11, 2004)

Several groups emphasize l/r translation as well as using different weapon combinations.

I have done the forms in this manner but only focus on the various weapon combinations and not left right hand execution of the form.  I do require proper application execution however with the left and right hand.

 :asian:


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## arnisandyz (Jun 11, 2004)

Forms are not a major focus of our training, however, we do the 4 stick anyos of Modern Arnis and the 64 from Pekiti Tirsia.  Its important to get the basic movements of the forms down first (typically with the stick in  the right hand), then we start freelancing it with left and right and different weapons using the form as a loose structure. This allows some amount of self-exploration and individuality in something that has potential to become very 'cookie cutter".  When I was still doing TKD, I would do some of the forms holding different weapons, with double daggers, the forms took on a more fluid feel, but still maintained the pattern of the form. My TKD instructor at the time was very open minded and encouraged me to explore all the TKD forms he had shown me with weapon application, some work better than others.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 11, 2004)

There are 8 empty hand forms and 4 cane forms in Modern Arnis.  Each of the forms has right and left hand applications of the same moves.  I use the empty hand forms to show possibilities of locking and off balancing actions.  I don't like the cane forms much but done flowingly, they show the blade actions of Modern Arnis.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I delineate the 8 empty hand forms in the book _Mano y Mano - The Weaponless Fighting Applications Of Modern Arnis._


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## Guro Harold (Jun 11, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> PS - I delineate the 8 empty hand forms in the book _Mano y Mano - The Weaponless Fighting Applications Of Modern Arnis._



Dan's book,  Mano y Mano - The Weaponless Fighting Applications Of Modern Arnis, is a great reference book to add to your Modern Arnis collection.  Each discrete move of the forms have been captured by photo.

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Flatlander (Jun 11, 2004)

Interesting that you mentioned that, as I went and bought it from Mr. Anderson's website as soon as he mentioned it in his last post.  So it's good to know you dug it.  Can't wait to read it.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 11, 2004)

Hi Flatlander,

I hope that I don't sound like a commercial but Renegade (Datu Tim Hartman) also has the forms on VCD.  I bought it as a reference as well.

Please go to the link below to order:
Modern Arnis Anyos
http://wdsupplies.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=28

Rest assured that I get no kickbacks for my recommendations, I just want to make sure that the reference material gets out there.

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Flatlander (Jun 11, 2004)

Thank you very much for the info. Must not spend too much at once. Wife asks many questions. Doesn't understand the value. Must be sneaky....
But will re-visit link later.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 13, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> I'll preface this by offering that the only person I've ever trained under is my current instructor, and would like to get a feeling for what goes on out there in the rest of the Modern Arnis community.  My question is to do with forms.  Are they usually taught both right lead/left lead (hand), various weapons in hand/emptyhand, standing up/on the knees/on the back, inclusively?



You can also check discussion on this thread about Cane Forms

Or you can check this thread about Empty Hand Forms


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## Cruentus (Jun 13, 2004)

Flatliner,

One thing you'll notice with forms is that they weren't standardize well by Professor, but rather used as a tool for personal expression within the art, among other things. Group's standardized forms later, and all had their own justifications for it. I believe that WMAA, IMAF Inc., WMAC, MA-80, DAV, for example, all have their own way of standardizing their forms, so "what's right" and "what's wrong" may vary depending on who you train with.

PAUL


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## Flatlander (Jun 14, 2004)

Paul,

Thank you for the insight.  The question this raises with me, FLATLANDER, is are the forms that varied in terms of actual movements?  Does anyone see this as being a bad thing?  A good thing?  Immaterial to the fundamental concepts?


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 14, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Flatliner,
> 
> One thing you'll notice with forms is that they weren't standardize well by Professor, but rather used as a tool for personal expression within the art, among other things. Group's standardized forms later, and all had their own justifications for it. I believe that WMAA, IMAF Inc., WMAC, MA-80, DAV, for example, all have their own way of standardizing their forms, so "what's right" and "what's wrong" may vary depending on who you train with.
> 
> PAUL



Have to disagree with you there, Paul.  RP was very specific (with me) as how to do the forms.  I was corrected several times on very exact moves within different ones.  Now, that he taught the forms ever so slightly differently in different areas of the US, I'll go for that.  Also, that he allowed a wide berth for the base style of who he was teaching the form to (meaning the form done by a taekwondo player would look different than when a kenpo player did the same form), I'll grant as well.  

The template was very specific, though.  The bunkai or self defense application was open to interpretation.  What is "right" or "wrong" is if the template is deviated from.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador (Jun 14, 2004)

I think you both may be saying the same thing--there was a canonical way to do them (Shotokan style, basically), but he didn't insist that every group do it their way--he had an ideal but didn't insist on making it a standard as much as a template.


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## Cruentus (Jun 14, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I think you both may be saying the same thing--there was a canonical way to do them (Shotokan style, basically), but he didn't insist that every group do it their way--he had an ideal but didn't insist on making it a standard as much as a template.



Perhaps we are saying the same thing (Dan and I). I'll agree that there was indeed a template, but that is as far as I'll go.

I can't say that the template was very specific, though. If you don't believe me, just ask 3 different people from 3 different organizations to do stick form #3, or empty hand form #5. I can bet a beer that actual movements will vary.

No, if we are talking stylistic differences or interpretive differences (bunkai), well, these could be night and day.

Perhaps, Professor Dan, Professor Presas was specific with you. It is good that you have that if he was, as that isn't the trend for everyone else. Maybe you have a forms book or DVD that you can share that will demonstraight what you were taught, specifically? (opportunity for shameless plug here  )

Regardless, certian things may have been taught specifically to certian people, but I think it is safe to say that forms were not standardized accross the board with Professor. If they were, then IMAF Shea, WMAA, WMAC, DAV, MA-80, and FMAC, and Tulisan Eskrima group (hell, why not throw in my little group for good measure), would all do the forms the same exact way, right?  :uhohh:   It would also be my imagination that I have been taught at least three different ways to do every form except stick form #2!  :rofl:  

 :asian: 
Paul Janulis


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## dearnis.com (Jun 14, 2004)

Hi Dan-
Hvae to disagree a bit.  Professor was very specific, but about different things with different people.  I can distinctly remember being pulled from a group at camp and shown a different (and not just subtly different) way to do a certain segment of a form.  Professor didnt change the group, nor criticize the instructor; he just wanted me doing a certain sequence a bit differently.
Ultimately I think Professor picked up on the fact that many people just BS'd the forms for testing and his reaction to students doing the forms with precision and intent was was to take them to another level of where they were rather than trying to fit one standard.


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## Cruentus (Jun 14, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Paul,
> 
> Thank you for the insight.  The question this raises with me, FLATLANDER, is are the forms that varied in terms of actual movements?  Does anyone see this as being a bad thing?  A good thing?  Immaterial to the fundamental concepts?



Sorry to goof your name, flatlander!   

The forms are varied in terms of actual movement, but that is where the least variation exists. The empty hand forms are borrowed from shotokan, the stick forms are all Remy. Forms 6-8 were added later by other influences from form based art practitioners, but were "approved" by Professor Presas. 

In terms of actual movement, I have seen different techniques altogether; different punches, different feet forward, etc, etc, etc. It's kind of the same template....but not exactly the same template.

My belief is that forms were used for self-expression, and marketing the art to forms-based artists. There was kind of a template...but (and notice I said kind of) and that is about it. It gave the student ownership of something early on; if a kung-fu guy did his forms with a kung fu stylistic flavor, then that was his self-expression.

Now, to my utmost annoyance, at the old IMAF camps when Professor was alive, people often missed the point. I would learn a form from my teacher and was told, it's the art within your art, do what you'd like, it's all the same. I'd learn more forms at the camps. Then I'd test, doing them stylistically like TKD, because I had a TKD background. I was told, no, thats not right, you have to do them more like Shotokan, because that's where they came from. I'd learn them like Shotokan, then someone else at another test or event would say, no, that's not right, you have to do them with a filipino flavor. I'd do them that way....but that wouldn't be right either by someone with a different opinion. Finally, I said screw it, I'm doing it MY way. That's when I got it the point! I would learn everyones way, from who-ever was covering forms that day during the forms session, and I'd do it their way, then I'd change it to do it my way on my own and with my students.

I'll never forget the MI summer camp (a few years before Remy's passing), when I was over with the black belts, and we were going to split up with forms instruction and black belt tapi-tapi. Professor had left 2 people in charge of coordinating. One of them asked, "O.K....who here knows forms well enough to teach them?" In my unwise youth, I raised my hand. Out of about 20 or more black belts, only about 2 others did as well. The funny thing was, I was just answering a question honestly; I could teach forms if needed, and I taught forms before. However, I didn't really WANT to teach the damn things. The 2 black belts "in charge" exchanged wierd condensending glances with a few others, then looked back at me like I had just s**t on the floor or something. After an awkward silence, someone said, "We don't know if your ready to teach forms yet." Now...of course I am thinking, what a bunch of dopes. But, I just shrugged, said, "Fine...I'll just hang out and tapi-tapi. No problem." Then someone else said (who was very well meaning, I might add), "No no, we don't want your feelings to be hurt, or anything. We just don't know if you can teach the forms because we haven't seen you. So, why don't you work with Lisa (Mcmanus), and she can make sure your up to speed for next time." I shrugged again, and said, "Sure...whatever you guys want to do" THinking in my head that I'd rather go play single stick, but fine, I'll see how Lisa does them differently. Mind you, I had been doing the art since 90, and she had started in like 95 or 96, but SHE was going to ensure that I was up to speed. Whatever... I figured that it ought to be entertaining at the very least.

It was. We did 1-6. I only made "a few mistakes," meaning that we had some stylistic differences. Oh brother. I was glad that I managed to get some single stick play in that night, anyways.

The whole thing was annoying to me then, but also very humerous at the same time. The multitude of people, black-belts and all, who failed to "get the point" all surfaced when it came time to do forms. I get a good laugh thinking about those times.

Flatlander...learn the template, then do one of 2 things. Do it the way your teacher teaches you, and wants for his group, or do it the way YOU want to do it within the basic template. Just know WHY your doing things the way you are. Dan Anderson I am sure will cover the forms well if you ordered his material. Tim Hartman, Datu Worden (I think), and IMAF, Inc. (I think) all have material out for forms as well. 

PAUL

P.S....how many of you remember when forms 7 and 8 were "the secret forms."  :rofl: I remember hearing about forms 7 and 8. So, I figured I'd ask a few higher ranked people if they could show me it. By the time I got the third, "I don't know if your ready to see that yet" or "I don't know if I am ALLOWED to show you those yet," "because those are the secret forms" I gave up. I remember lterally laughing out loud by myself about that one. Secret froms? WTF!  :rofl: That never ceases to crack me up. It's funny how "the secret forms" became a part of the normal cirriculum by 2000.    The Idiocy in martial arts sometimes never ceases to amaze me.

I hope you all don't think I am being negative here, but I am just speaking the truth. The mystery shrouding forms, and "secret forms" stepped way over the border of ridiculesness. :uhyeah:


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 15, 2004)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Hi Dan-
> Hvae to disagree a bit.  Professor was very specific, but about different things with different people.
> *A.*I can distinctly remember being pulled from a group at camp and shown a different (and not just subtly different) way to do a certain segment of a form.  Professor didnt change the group, nor criticize the instructor; he just wanted me doing a certain sequence a bit differently.
> 
> *B.*Ultimately I think Professor picked up on the fact that many people just BS'd the forms for testing and his reaction to students doing the forms with precision and intent was was to take them to another level of where they were rather than trying to fit one standard.



Hi Chad,
A.  Most likely he was showing you the exact way he wanted it done.
B.  I absolutely agree with you on the most people shining on the forms.
In the Northwest camps he'd have me show the prople the forms.  He'd be very specific with me and be quiet with everyone else (which would put me in the hot seat when it came time for correcting others).  I don't see much of a disagreement with you as he did the same with the both of us.

Yours,
Dan


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 15, 2004)

Flatlander (I know his real name),

What I feel the forms are good for are A. preserving the empty hand material RP taught and B. they show movement and actions which aren't commonly found in typical karate actions.  They contain a good template for the catching, locking, and throwing actions which are common in Modern Arnis.

The _manner in which they are done_ is where you are going to find the greatest variation.  The practitioner's background is going to influence movement.  On RP's first set of tapes, the forms are done by Jim and Judy Clapp.  They look like they have a kenpo background.  I've seen Paul walk through the forms.  I was at Jim Power's (who pre-dates me in Modern Arnis and that's saying something) and watched Rich Parsons go through the forms.  None of them look like the way _I_ do the forms.  We follow, basically, the same template.  It used to be somewhat of a big deal what they _looked_ like.  Actually, where the rubber meets the road is in application.  What are you doing while you are "doing the dance."  That is where the forms have value, I feel.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Paul - forms 7&8 _are _secret forms and you were shown something different to appease your curiousity and so we could laugh at you when you weren't looking.  It succeeded.  :rofl:


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## Cruentus (Jun 15, 2004)

> PS - Paul - forms 7&8 are secret forms and you were shown something different to appease your curiousity and so we could laugh at you when you weren't looking. It succeeded.



That's O.K....Remy showed me the secret of Chi power contained in form 10. That's covered in your secret MA black book, right!?    :rofl:


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 15, 2004)

I can't believe how many shots you've taken to the head.  Form 10 covered _Chai_ power, not chi power.  You guys needed some good tea because of the lousy coffee you have in Michigan (or had at the time).   :erg: 

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Because you spilled the beans on the secret MA Black Book, now you don't get one.


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## Cruentus (Jun 15, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> I can't believe how many shots you've taken to the head.  Form 10 covered _Chai_ power, not chi power.  You guys needed some good tea because of the lousy coffee you have in Michigan (or had at the time).   :erg:
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson
> ...



Steer clear of the evil starbucks corporation! Not only will your coffee suck, but you'll be supporting their goals of world domination!

Carribu Coffee is the way to go here in the Great Lakes.

 :uhyeah:


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## Flatlander (Jun 15, 2004)

all great stuff, but we seem to be moving away from the original intent of the thread.  So what about "how" you all teach the forms (you guys all seem to be teachers here, making me feel like the only student, but your student, your cyber student, who's not paying you.)  (except Mr. Anderson, who sold me a book.).

What I mean by how is, just standing up?  On one knee?  Lying on the ground?  Transitioning between all?  What is common?  How did Professor Presas do it?


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## Guro Harold (Jun 16, 2004)

Hi Flatlander,

Sorry, I thought that I had covered this previously.

For the most part the forms are taught with the right-handed perspective while standing.  The other major perspective is from a left handed perspective or adding different weapons.

In Hock Hocheim's Pacific Archipelago and Filipino Combatives, he encourages learning techniques standing, kneeling, on the ground, running forward and backward, however, we do not have the anyos in the system, only the "Hirada Responses" (Like the "Seguidas" in other Espada Y Daga systems).

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 16, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> all great stuff, but we seem to be moving away from the original intent of the thread.  So what about "how" you all teach the forms (you guys all seem to be teachers here, making me feel like the only student, but your student, your cyber student, who's not paying you.)  (except Mr. Anderson, who sold me a book.).
> 
> What I mean by how is, just standing up?  On one knee?  Lying on the ground?  Transitioning between all?  What is common?  How did Professor Presas do it?



I teach the same way Prof. Presas taught them, standing up.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## sungkit (Jun 16, 2004)

Having trained in the forms under the instruction of Snr Master Vicente Sanchez in the Philippines, he teaches the forms as he was taught by Professor Remy Presas. His scrutiny is such, that he will correct you on the minutest indiscretion.

Personally and I know this is the feeling of my own teacher, the forms are a guide and once they are learnt and started to be understood, then the person's own individual interpretation will flavour the forms.


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## Cruentus (Jun 16, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> all great stuff, but we seem to be moving away from the original intent of the thread.  So what about "how" you all teach the forms (you guys all seem to be teachers here, making me feel like the only student, but your student, your cyber student, who's not paying you.)  (except Mr. Anderson, who sold me a book.).
> 
> What I mean by how is, just standing up?  On one knee?  Lying on the ground?  Transitioning between all?  What is common?  How did Professor Presas do it?



The thing was, Professor Presas rarely did them. He didn't do them at any of the events I went to. Someone else always taught them. Everyone taught them differently. At best, he gave me some advice now and again, in passing.

Generally, the stick anyos were taught with a stick in the right hand; empty hand just empty hand. Now, I remember some people got a kick out of doing the stick anyos left handed, doing the empty hand forms all stepping backwards, or forwards, etc. I personally had fun on my own time building my sword/dagger attributes by doing the stick and empty hand anyos with a sword and dagger in my hand. It was all good if it worked and was helpful, because that is your expression.

It really was up to your own expression. However, there were certian people who understood the template well, and could teach the forms well, and looked good while doing it; and those people were chosen specifically to teach forms at camps at different times. Tim Hartman taught forms alot. I also remember Jay Spiro teaching, as well as Dan Converse if I am not mistaken. I've taught some as well, against my will.

Now there were certain people who Remy may have specifically taught aspects of the forms too. Dan Anderson said the old man gave him a specific way of teaching. Chad Dulin remembers being told somethig else that was specific. Jim Power in Flint was taught privately by Professor, and was taught his forms a specific way. Tim Hartman was asked to standardize the forms in the New video tape series, as far as I know, before Professor passed on.

Point is, my opinion, for what it's worth, is that it is good that we are not in a vaccum, because no one person holds the monopoly on Modern Arnis, whether forms or anything else. We all have different pieces of the puzzle. Learn as many pieces of the puzzle that you can, then make your own puzzle. I think that's what the old man wanted us to do. This goes for forms, or anything else.

PAUL
 :asian:


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## Flatlander (Jun 16, 2004)

Hey folks, I really appreciate your candour.  I seek to get closer to the truth, and you all are helping to guide me.  Was this a good thread or what?  Thanks again.

Dan


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 16, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Flatlander (I know his real name),
> 
> What I feel the forms are good for are A. preserving the empty hand material RP taught and B. they show movement and actions which aren't commonly found in typical karate actions.  They contain a good template for the catching, locking, and throwing actions which are common in Modern Arnis.
> 
> ...




Dan,

I agree it is the applications that make the form 

Now, I just want to know if I have to learn them all over again, since I do not do them like everyone else . Seriously, it is the way our group does the forms, it is not the only way nor the correct way.

In 1987 when I meet Tim Hartman for the first time ( we meet formally later ), I also meet Dr. Randi Schea and had the priviledge of doing semi sparring with him. (* he was suprised that I could flow and did not have a heavy hand as did many of the other large guys at the seminar *). I was learning the forms from many different people at the camp. It seemed that there were almost as many ways as there were schools present. As I had the priviledge of driving GM Remy Presas to the seminar from Flint, I felt comfortable to talk to him and ask him which way should I do the forms. I had a stick in my hand at the time. He smiled and said stand there with your back against the wall. Can you now do cane form three with the steps backward? No the wall is in your way. Stand in the corner, can you do cane form four now? No you cannot turn to your right. I was still young and not very bright. (* Now I am just older and not very bright  *). I asked again, so which way is the correct way to learn them or to teach them. He smiled at me again and said, learn them all. I hope that when my students get together, that they will have things to share and teach with each other. I went back and did my best to learn what I could. It was not until later I realized, that it was a template. (* MY words *). You could throw, or strike, or apply it with a knife or with a cane or with a machete or ..., . 

Therefore, I recognize why the different groups have a specific way to teach the forms. This gives a standard to learn them and be tested by them. I just believe that, GM Remy Presas wanted us all to be able to flow from one technique to another, and he would use what ever teaching mechanization he could to get people to open their minds and flow. "Do not resist what you knwo to be true" .  Therefore when some tells me I do it wrong, I smile, and ask them how they do it. I can at least maybe see a new variation, and learn something.

 :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2004)

Note: for the Michigan 87 Camp. THere were many more that I meet later as well, including our own Arnisador , and many more.

 :asian:


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## arnisador (Jun 17, 2004)

Yes, 1987 was my first Michigan camp!


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 17, 2004)

Coming from a American TKD back ground I was really into learning the forms at my first camp in Dallas in 95.  Myself and the guy I was working with (a preying mantis instructor) and Arlie (a guy that would later become my main seminar workout partner for the next several years) really worked on forms one and two.  The mantis instructor did his forms on the test mantis style and the Professor liked it.

The next year we (Arlie and I) were told that we did the forms wrong yet we were doing them the way we were taught.  So we changed, a year or two later Arlie had a discussion with another instructor (semi heated) about one of the stick anyos that again we supposedly had learned wrong.  It was after that that I pretty much dropped worrying about the forms.  I did them for the tests and such but didn't really work on them till the next year.  There seemed to be no real point (I thought at the time) due to the Professor not teaching them, and everyone doing them differently.

I think in 2000/01 I talked to Dr. Schea about it at the summer camp and he told me that the forms meant a lot to GM Remy.  That back when he started the Professor taught them and everyone had to do it (I think both left and right) and know the applications as well.  It made me think back to when I use to see GM Remy sitting in his chair watching Arlie and I work on the forms during the camp, so I started to apply myself working on the forms again.

However now due to the way I teach and the small amount of students that I have, since the professor's passing I haven't worked on them.  This thread has been helpful in understanding what might have been going on back then and the boat I missed.   :idunno: 

Mark


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