# Chinese Grappling Systems



## Tomyum (Jul 7, 2003)

Is anyone familiar with or a practicioner of shuai jiao or chin na? I've heard that Matt Fuhrey has learned both and is one of the first non-Chinese to win a gold in China's shuai jiao circuit.

I have done some research on both systems. From the books that I have seen, shuai jiao looks just like western wrestling. Chin na however looks usefull and perhaps unseen in the western grappling circles.

Thanks


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tomyum _
> *I have done some research on both systems. From the books that I have seen, shuai jiao looks just like western wrestling. Chin na however looks usefull and perhaps unseen in the western grappling circles.
> 
> Thanks *



Shuai Jiao is the art of throwing. Arts that use throws from shuai jiao are judo/jujutsu, western wrestling, aikido, silat, I am sure there is many more I didn't mention.

Chin na is a sub-art meaning they don't teach it as a seperate art. It means to seize and control. Again there are many arts that borrow from chin na, jujutsu, hapkido, aikido, silat, the filipino arts.
Bob:asian:


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## arnisador (Jul 7, 2003)

Shuai Chiao reminds me more of jujutsu than wrestling (in my admittedly very limited experience).


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## lvwhitebir (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Shuai Chiao reminds me more of jujutsu than wrestling (in my admittedly very limited experience). *



It's probably closer to Judo than even these.  It is all throwing (as far as I know); no ground work at all.

WhiteBirch


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## MountainSage (Jul 8, 2003)

Shuai Chiao, IMO, is Judo and kickboxing combined.  In my research on the style, kicks and punches are used to set-up for a throw.  In the sport version of the art points are score by how high you can get your opponents feet in the air, not by how many times you can punch or kick.  I would also agree, with my limited knowledge, that it is probably closer to traditional jujitsu in a non sport sense because throws and joint locks are emphasis equally if not more than punching and kicking.  If you get a chance watch a guy named Cu Lee on the TV or on video.  He is one of the top US teacher and competitor is this style.  I believe he has a website and trains out of California, I want to say the Santa Barbara area, not sure. He's just flat good!

Mountain Sage


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *Shuai Chiao, IMO, is Judo and kickboxing combined.  In my research on the style, kicks and punches are used to set-up for a throw.  In the sport version of the art points are score by how high you can get your opponents feet in the air, not by how many times you can punch or kick.  I would also agree, with my limited knowledge, that it is probably closer to traditional jujitsu in a non sport sense because throws and joint locks are emphasis equally if not more than punching and kicking.  If you get a chance watch a guy named Cu Lee on the TV or on video.  He is one of the top US teacher and competitor is this style.  I believe he has a website and trains out of California, I want to say the Santa Barbara area, not sure. He's just flat good!
> 
> Mountain Sage *



I believe the guy you are talking about is Cung Le. He studies San Shou kung fu it also has throws in it but I don't think it is the same thing as Shuai Jiao. I could be wrong?
Bob :asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 8, 2003)

Cung Le operates two schools in San Jose and Santa Clara CA.  I visited the Santa Clara school last year to watch a couple of classes.  The style is San Shou kickboxing.  The style's origin is reportedly the Chinese military.  It is similar to Western or Muary Thai kickboxing with leg kicks and wrestling takedowns.  I believe competition rules forbid knees or elbows.


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## MountainSage (Jul 8, 2003)

Kempojujitsu,
Went back and check in some of my books and we are both correct.  As a sport it's San Shou and as a MA it's Shuai Jiao.  I get this info from the book "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting" by Liang, Shou-Yu and Tai D. Ngo.  Very interesting and practical book.
To all,
Here are some statements from the book that compare SJ to other comparable art i.e. jujitsu, judo, western wrestling:
1) "San Shou Shuai Jiao emphasizes more speed when throwing."
2) "San Shou Shaui Jiao incorporates kicking and punching Techniques."
3) Avoids falling to the ground and grappling too long with an opponent."
The author further states that "These difference do not imply that one style is superior to another, fighting is a very complicated subject."

Mountain Sage


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## MountainSage (Jul 8, 2003)

Remembered that I had gotten some combat shuai chiao, pronounced Kuai Jiao, from a Master David Lin in Atlanta, Georgia.  Nothing earth shattering, but gives some of the basics.  Never pursued this art because it really requires two people to really get very effective with it.

Mountain Sage


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *Kempojujitsu,
> Went back and check in some of my books and we are both correct.  As a sport it's San Shou and as a MA it's Shuai Jiao.  I get this info from the book "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting" by Liang, Shou-Yu and Tai D. Ngo.  Very interesting and practical book.
> To all,
> ...



Mountain Sage

Thanks for the info. 
Bob:asian:


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## twinkletoes (Jul 8, 2003)

The rules systems that are used in Shuai Jiao tournaments do not usually include strikes, and have scoring a little more like Judo.  This is, to my understanding, more of a san shou thing.  Again, I am no expert.

What I've heard about Furey and winning the Shuai Jiao competition (mind you this is hearsay) is that the single leg takedown is legal, and that's all Furey used.  He shot for high singles repeatedly to rack up points.  That's how he won.

Is this the truth?  I don't know.  But I've heard it in several places.  Also, I've seen Furey's training tape, in which he shows himself practicing various takedowns.  His high single is the only one in which he doesn't look like he himself is going to fall down too.

Best,

~TT


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 8, 2003)

To learn about San Shou rules visit these two sites.  

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/
http://www.cungle.com


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## twinkletoes (Jul 8, 2003)

Thanks for the link, man.  I knew someone would have one.

~TT


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## Tomyum (Jul 8, 2003)

I took a look at "Shao Lin Chin Na" by Dr. Yang Jing-Ming.

It looks like a cross of traditional japanese jiu-jitsu and aikido with some dirty techniques - tendon tearing, cavity strikes, foot stomping etc.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tomyum _
> *I took a look at "Shao Lin Chin Na" by Dr. Yang Jing-Ming.
> 
> It looks like a cross of traditional japanese jiu-jitsu and aikido with some dirty techniques - tendon tearing, cavity strikes, foot stomping etc. *



I have several of his books. was looking at one today.
Bob :asian:


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## Shuri-te (Jul 9, 2003)

Dr. Yang Jing-Ming's books and videos are available on Barnes and Noble and Amazon. 

You can also go to the web site of the publisher (YMAA):

www.ymaa.com


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## lvwhitebir (Jul 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *Kempojujitsu,
> Went back and check in some of my books and we are both correct.  As a sport it's San Shou and as a MA it's Shuai Jiao.  I get this info from the book "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting" by Liang, Shou-Yu and Tai D. Ngo.  Very interesting and practical book.
> *



San Shou in Chinese just means freestyle.  San Shou Lei Tai (often just shortened to just San Shou) is what Cung Le fights in, which just means it's a style similar to  Kickboxing done on a raised platform.  It contains punching, kicking, and takedowns to gain points.  From what I read and heard, it was developed rather recently in China to give people more of a fighting side to Wu Shu.

Shuai Jiao is a throwing art.  From all the material I have on it, there is no striking in it at all.  San Shou Shuai Jiao would just mean free-style (or sparring) Shuai Jiao and would not be the same as Cung Le's style (San Shou Lei Tai).

Shuai Jiao fighters wear jackets similar to Judo gis, except the front is not closed.  This allows them to grab the jacket for control.  They then do similar throws and sweeps as Judo to score points.  From what I understand, the point of Shuai Jiao is to throw the person so that they're unable to get back up (no need to ground fight then  )

WhiteBirch


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## twinkletoes (Jul 9, 2003)

When taught correctly (Yang Jwing Ming is a good example of one who teaches it correctly) Chin Na is meant to be an integration of joint manipulation and "pressure points."  

I say "pressure points" in quotation marks because they don't think "poke here and it hurts" the way some people think of them.  Rather, Chin Na works from the chinese view of the body as an integrated whole, and the understanding that to manipulate any part of it, by touching, hitting, locking, twisting, etc. is to affect the whole.  This means that when you touch this, hit this, and lock this at the same time you get a certain reaction, as opposed to using some of them in isolation.

I have not had the priveledge of studying Chin Na under someone reputable, but when I studied Kyusho & Qigong (together) our instructor had nothing but the best to say about Dr. Yang Jwing Ming.  His books indicate a great awareness of overriding principles.  

~TT


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## Tomyum (Jul 9, 2003)

Another good book "Chin Na in Ground Fighting" written by a Canadian Police Officer who studied under Dr. Yang.

The book integrates Chin Na with wrestling, judo and jiujitsu!


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## A.R.K. (Jul 22, 2003)

I am fortunate to be a Chin Na practitioner, having had many different instructors.  It can be broken down into different areas such as cavity press, sealing the vein or artery, muscle grabbing, bone locking, and as mentioned above ripping the ligaments, tendons and muscle.  

The english translations of the various techniques are very colorful such as wild chicken breaks it's wing, child bows to worship the budda, pillars of heaven and earth etc.  Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is a fine Master, I have several of his books and tapes to supplement and augment what I've learned over the years.  Tim Carvel is also a good instructor in my opinion with his 'Practical Chin Na.  

There is Chin Na in every discipline, simply of a different name.  Chin Na is more of a medical/anotomical system in my opinion than other disciplies.  It can be used from pain compliance all the way to more 'permanent' techniques.  In my job I probably use Chin Na or Chin Na 'type' techniques 95% of the time to gain control of our 'guests'.  

One needs more than to simply learn the techniques, they need to know how to apply them to actual situations.  One needs also to learn how to apply multiple Chin Na techniques in the same attack/defense move.  For example, when using a shoulder Chin Na lock it's effectiveness is greatly enhanced if the practitioner is also simultaneously using a wrist/finger Chin Na.  

Of all the studies I've been fortunate enough to train in, Chin Na is by far my favorite.  

:asian:


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## Tomyum (Jul 25, 2003)

In addition to Dr. Yang's series and Tim Carvel are there other series worth a look?

Thanks


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## arnisador (Jul 25, 2003)

See also this thread.


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