# Goju ryu and Shorei Goju Ryu



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 13, 2006)

What are the differences between Goju Ryu and Shorei Goju Ryu?


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Apr 15, 2006)

goju-ryu is the style, shoreikan goju-ryu is the dojo of late master Toguchi Seikichi.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 15, 2006)

Thanks, I thought they were different styles.

Jeff


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 22, 2006)

Same ideas maybe taught differently.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 27, 2006)

*Which Shorei goju ryu are you talking about. The Shorei kan Goju ryu of Toguchi Hanshi, or the Shorei Goju that was taught by Robert Trias? There is a big difference between the two. *






			
				JeffJ said:
			
		

> What are the differences between Goju Ryu and Shorei Goju Ryu?


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## Robert Lee (Jul 27, 2006)

Toguchi Added tandaku kata di iche and di ni to Goju ryu he called unified kata in hopes to spread it to all Karate but that failed.   Other then that it is basicly the same okinawan Goju ryu. Then you also have japanese goju that is slightly different.


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## pstarr (Jul 27, 2006)

Yesm Twendkata71 said it - there's Shorei Goju which was created by Robert Trias (founder of the USKA) and then there's Shoreikan Goju-ryu which is actually a form of Goju.  They're not the same animal at all.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 27, 2006)

*Toguchi's Shorei kan was kept as close to Miyagi's teachings as possible. Even though he was not an original,direct student of Miyagi's. I have seen several history listings that state that Hiagoanna(Miyagi's teacher,not Morio Hiagoanna) used the term Shorei ryu to discribe what he taught. I have also read in historical documents that he only used the term Naha te.*
*Trias's Shorei goju gets its goju lineage from Masifumi Suzuki  10th dan Goju ryu,who ran the Nippon Seibukan International(Which was one of the largest martial arts schools in Japan) before his death. Trias traveled to Japan to train and learn from Suzuki for some time.  Suzuki taught Goju ryu and Judo. He was in the karate movie (The street fighter,with Sonny Chiba),I could not understand why Trias didn't add more of the Goju ryu kata into his curriculum. Later exponents of the Shorei goju karate(or Shorei goju kempo) did add more of the traditional Goju ryu kata.*





			
				pstarr said:
			
		

> Yesm Twendkata71 said it - there's Shorei Goju which was created by Robert Trias (founder of the USKA) and then there's Shoreikan Goju-ryu which is actually a form of Goju. They're not the same animal at all.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 28, 2006)

My understanding was that Hanshi Trias founded and taught Shuri Ryu not Shorei Goju Ryu.  Even Hanshi Roberta Trias-Kelley (Robert Trias' Daughter) teaches Shuri Ryu.  Am I way off base here?


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## pstarr (Jul 28, 2006)

It's true that Mr. Trias founded and taught what he called Shuri-ryu.  

My understanding is that he initially taught several Goju kata and then later wanted to eliminate them from his newer Shuri-ryu style.  A number of his senior students wanted to retain these forms while also practicing the newer Shuri-ryu and Goju-Shorei was born-

At least that's what I was told many, many moons ago...


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 28, 2006)

Interesting I never had heard that before.


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## Grenadier (Jul 28, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> It's true that Mr. Trias founded and taught what he called Shuri-ryu.
> 
> My understanding is that he initially taught several Goju kata and then later wanted to eliminate them from his newer Shuri-ryu style. A number of his senior students wanted to retain these forms while also practicing the newer Shuri-ryu and Goju-Shorei was born-
> 
> At least that's what I was told many, many moons ago...


 
That's about as good of an explanation as any.  

I trained in Shuri for a good while (enjoyed every minute of it), so I can provide some insight from that point of view.  In Shuri, we never did any of the Heian / Pinan Kata, although there was still some "kata overlap" between other systems as well, just with different names.  Obviously, the Taikyoku series was very similar to other systems' introductory forms.  The more advanced kata were similar, though, regardless of whether different names were used or not.  Naihanchi and Bassai were taught, as were others.  For example, Empi Sho = Wanshu, Nan Dan Sho = Nijushiho, Kankusho = Kushanku Sho.  There were also several kata that were more or less unique to that system, such as Gopei Sho, Tsue Sho, etc.  

A friend of mine in the new dojo was a Goju-Shorei practitioner for a while.  He said that they practiced the Pinan / Heian series, and that their array of kata were closer to what Shotokan might teach.  

Hanshi Trias-Kelly teaches Shuri Ryu.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Well, I do know that the style that Mr. Trias taught went through many changes over the 40 years he was teaching karate in the US.*
*I thought that he started out teaching Shorei ryu, but later after becoming associated with Konishi (Shindo jinen ryu/ryobukai) changed the name to Shuri ryu.  One of the finest karate instructors that I have ever met(John Jelks) still calls what he teaches Shorei ryu. While many of his peers, Woodrow Fairbanks,Mike Awad, and Robert Bowles teach Shuri ryu.  It was always confusing to me when I was younger and I would go to tournaments and their students would be wearing the same patches,doing the same kata,but state a different style when competiting. *
*If I am off here please let me know.  I have known many Shuri ryu and/or Shorei ryu stylist over the years. The majority were very good karate ka.*


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## Robert Lee (Jul 28, 2006)

To the best of my knowledge Toguchi was a direct student of Miyagi. And other then adding The two tandaku katas The training was inline with what miyagi taught. Haigishiana Who instructed miyagi Had studied shorinji temple boxing. and  okinawan te Tried to instruct the shorinji temple boxing but found it not fully siuted for the students and blended it with  the okinawan te. Later naha tye. wher Both Goju and shori te came to be. The gekisi katas gekiha katas kakuha katas and revised version of sanchin Miyagi put together The koryu Katas sifa, seuchin, saisan, sapi, superenpi. kurunfa,came from haigishanas teachings And  I believe tensho. also Now sanchin to my understanding was earlyer practiced in a more open hand training rather then closed fist at that was what was told to me. Yamaguchi I believe Was the one handed down to head Goju from miyagi. I have built some rust on My Go ju knowledge over the years As I have drifted away from its training.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 28, 2006)

I wish I saw Mr. Fairbanks more often I would ask him but I haven't seen him for almost 10 years.  This is interesting though.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 28, 2006)

It is Hiagoanna Kanryo, not Haigishiana. That was Miyagi Chojun's teacher.
Also, Toguchi sensei's teacher at the Miyagi dojo was Higa Seiko,who was one of Miyagi's senior students. Yes, he did train at the Miyagi dojo,but his actual teacher most of the time was Higa. That is what I was refering to.







			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> To the best of my knowledge Toguchi was a direct student of Miyagi. And other then adding The two tandaku katas The training was inline with what miyagi taught. Haigishiana Who instructed miyagi Had studied shorinji temple boxing. and okinawan te Tried to instruct the shorinji temple boxing but found it not fully siuted for the students and blended it with the okinawan te. Later naha tye. wher Both Goju and shori te came to be. The gekisi katas gekiha katas kakuha katas and revised version of sanchin Miyagi put together The koryu Katas sifa, seuchin, saisan, sapi, superenpi. kurunfa,came from haigishanas teachings And I believe tensho. also Now sanchin to my understanding was earlyer practiced in a more open hand training rather then closed fist at that was what was told to me. Yamaguchi I believe Was the one handed down to head Goju from miyagi. I have built some rust on My Go ju knowledge over the years As I have drifted away from its training.


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## Robert Lee (Jul 28, 2006)

But he did train under miyagi also. And toguchi was also the director of Miyagis go ju ryu association and part head of go ju kai  And was That was by miyagi.  But yes he also trained with Higa who was a senior student of miyagi.  Thats in the past now that even toguchi is gone But like I said its been several years since I was active in Go ju I liked it and trained it many years but went on to other aspects.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 28, 2006)

*If you like training in Goju ryu , why did you stop training in it?  We had a Japanese Goju ryu black belt at our dojo for a while. I liked the kata that he taught.  He has since went elsewhere. Perhaps to run his own dojo. I am not sure. He was very good.*








			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> But he did train under miyagi also. And toguchi was also the director of Miyagis go ju ryu association and part head of go ju kai And was That was by miyagi. But yes he also trained with Higa who was a senior student of miyagi. Thats in the past now that even toguchi is gone But like I said its been several years since I was active in Go ju I liked it and trained it many years but went on to other aspects.


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## pstarr (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh yes - I was a member of the USKA back in the day...I remember Mr. Awad and Mr. Bowles and many other excellent karateka from those thrilling days of yesteryear!

And they were very good, too!

I used to get confused between Shuri-ryu and Shorei-ryu...people who trained under Mr. Trias would often refer to their style by both names.  I was told that "Shorei" was the Japanese pronunciation of "Shuri."  I really don't know.

Regardless, their art was very powerful and they were ferocious fighters.  Most of them tended to be rather large - I often joked that the Shuri-ryu guys should start their own pro football team.
     I think they ate the smaller students...


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 28, 2006)

Rest assured Hanshi Bowles students are still tough and hard to beat in competition.


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## pstarr (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm glad to hear it!!!  Do you know if Parker Shelton is still active?


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 29, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> I'm glad to hear it!!! Do you know if Parker Shelton is still active?


I am not sure if he is or not I only saw him once in passing didn't realize who he was at the time.  But last I knew he was still active.


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## Robert Lee (Jul 29, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *If you like training in Goju ryu , why did you stop training in it? We had a Japanese Goju ryu black belt at our dojo for a while. I liked the kata that he taught. He has since went elsewhere. Perhaps to run his own dojo. I am not sure. He was very good.*


I looked into other arts And train Mostly JKd now days. I do have a upper blackbelt in Goju ryu. And my certificate is sighned by Toguchi But I have not done much Goju since the mid 1980s I prefure No kata training at all now days But I do Think I still could do most of the Goju requirements Because I spent About 15 years being active in Goju before I gave it up. And as you know Alot of time goes into the training So its hard to completely forget it. Just get pretty rusty not doing it as a main training section. I looked at other arts while training goju ryu and chose to leave its method after becoming more exposed to JKD Though I do like it and the other arts I trained I prefure a different method to my training


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## twendkata71 (Jul 29, 2006)

*I understand that . Everyone needs to get exposure from other arts for their own development.  I am not so sure that I would give of kata training. There is a lot more to kata than most people believe. You just have to be creative with working out the techniques  from the kata.  Anyway, good luck on your journey. *






			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> I looked into other arts And train Mostly JKd now days. I do have a upper blackbelt in Goju ryu. And my certificate is sighned by Toguchi But I have not done much Goju since the mid 1980s I prefure No kata training at all now days But I do Think I still could do most of the Goju requirements Because I spent About 15 years being active in Goju before I gave it up. And as you know Alot of time goes into the training So its hard to completely forget it. Just get pretty rusty not doing it as a main training section. I looked at other arts while training goju ryu and chose to leave its method after becoming more exposed to JKD Though I do like it and the other arts I trained I prefure a different method to my training


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## Bushido492 (Nov 18, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Rest assured Hanshi Bowles students are still tough and hard to beat in competition.


 


I am a student of Hanshi Bowles, he is an excellent teacher and one of the most humble men i have ever met.


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## Bushido492 (Nov 18, 2006)

pstarr said:


> I'm glad to hear it!!! Do you know if Parker Shelton is still active?


 


Mr.Shelton is still active and teaching in Fort Wayne, Indiana.  Our city is lucky to have both Hanshi Bowles and Mr.Shelton teaching their arts here.


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## Brandon Fisher (Nov 18, 2006)

Indiana Karate is some of the best around thats for sure.  With Parker Shelton, Robert Bowles, Eddie Bethea, Glenn Keeney, Herb Johnson among many others its great.  I am glad I have been a part of it.


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## Grenadier (Nov 20, 2006)

Bushido492 said:


> I am a student of Hanshi Bowles, he is an excellent teacher and one of the most humble men i have ever met.


 
Nice to hear from a fellow Shuri practitioner.  I used to train with Kyoshi Abele in South Carolina for a while.  

Yes, you're right.  Hanshi Bowles is a first great man, and secondly, a great teacher, as are many of the senior sensei in the system.


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## Tortuga12 (Nov 28, 2006)

I trained at a shorei goju-ryu school for a while in Brownsburg, IN.  I liked the style and instructor's way of teaching, it's legit American Karate, (not Rex Kwon Do!).  I didn't like the MASSIVE amount (to me, anyway) of ranks (belts and stripes), each requiring a promotion, and it's associated fee.  And the fees for USKA & PKC memberships that were required to promote, make it feel a little like a McDojo.  I know they did the pinan series, Bassai Dai, and I believe the Neihanchin series, not sure on that one, though.  Good mix of kumite, self defense, kata, and fundamentals.


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## Brandon Fisher (Nov 28, 2006)

Having your rank on record with USKA and PKC is not a bad thing.


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## searcher (Nov 28, 2006)

The term Shorei is a tribute to the masters of the style that makes of a large part of several different styles.   Higaonna has already been mentioned, but with Chito-ryu we give credit for our Shorei lineage to Seisho Aragaki/Arakaki.   He was the premier Karate-ka of his day.   He taught many of the modern masters' instructors, including Chitose, Funakoshi, Higaonna, and Motobu.   That is my take on the use of the term Shorei.


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## Ken (Dec 8, 2006)

Are any of these styles similar to Chiba-Ha Shorei-ryu?


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## Brandon Fisher (Dec 8, 2006)

Ken said:


> Are any of these styles similar to Chiba-Ha Shorei-ryu?


Probably.  The "Ha" just denotes that particular Sensei's interpetation.


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## kohelet (Feb 4, 2009)

Over the years Robert Trias was responsible for "founding" several arts.  Currently these are the branches of Trias Karate I know of:
International Shuri-Ryu -  Style Head  Robert Bowles
Trias Traditional Shuri-Ryu - Style Head  Roberta Jane Trias-Kelly
Shorei-Ryu - Style Head  Terry B. Sanders
Shorei-goju Ryu - Style Head  Herb Johnson

Each of these today are considered independant styles since the USKA disbaned in the late 1990's.  In my experience Shuri-Ryu represents the last stage of Trias' development of his own system.  The current leaders of both the International group and the Traditional Group agree that Shuri-Ryu is an American Style of Karate based on Okinawan Karate.

The other Groups represent earlier developments which he left to groups of his students who didn't wish to continue with his personal development path.  Shorei-goju Ryu, in my experience does use mostly Goju kata, though usualy a specificaly Trias version.  Shorei-Ryu tends to be more of a mixture of sorts.  Using the Pinans, Neko Buto series, and certain forms from Shuri, Naha, and Tomari development.  It seems that each of these styles have a few kata in common, namely Gopei Sho, Dan Enn Sho, and Nan Dan Sho.  These Kata are perported to have been taken from movements of a chines art, but later scholars feel it is more likely he developed them himself.

I have trained in Trias based Karate styles for over 23 years and train with an instructor who has studied Trias Karate since 1968.  She has spent lots of time over the last 13 years sharing her experience through the development of these arts and has trained in all of them durring her time.  Today she holds a 9th Dan and, though she doesn't like the Idea, was given the title Hanshi.  

In the end, Trias left an interesting legacy and many wonderful branches of his Karate styles over his lifetime.  We all have some things in common, but there are truely some differences also.  

Hope this helps with this discussion, even though it is an old one at this point lol.


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## Grenadier (Feb 5, 2009)

kohelet said:


> International Shuri-Ryu - Style Head Robert Bowles
> Trias Traditional Shuri-Ryu - Style Head Roberta Jane Trias-Kelly


 
I've trained with both of the above factions, and found both of them to be excellent.  For the most part, they're consistent with each other, with some minor variations.  

I don't know much about the third faction of Shuri Ryu (led by Vic Moore), though.  




> The current leaders of both the International group and the Traditional Group agree that Shuri-Ryu is an American Style of Karate based on Okinawan Karate.


 
Yup.  On the Yahoo groups, Hanshi Abele gave a very nice summary of that.  




> Gopei Sho, Dan Enn Sho, and Nan Dan Sho. These Kata are perported to have been taken from movements of a chines art, but later scholars feel it is more likely he developed them himself.


 
Dan En Sho and Go Pei Sho are Trias' creations, that are unique to his system.  Nan Dan Sho, though, is his version of kata Nijushiho that is commonly practiced in many systems, much like how he adopted Kanku Sho from other systems, as well as forming his version of Empi.  Thus, the Shuri Ryu kata list has some of its own creations, as well as having a good number of similar kata as other Japanese and Okinawan systems.


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## kohelet (Feb 26, 2009)

Yes the different branches of Trias Karate have their similarities, but each has it's own unique flavor.  I am not sure about the third branch of Shuri-Ryu but would be interested to learn more since Victor Moore was one of my sensei's instructors.  I am not sure of their current friendship but she gives him credit for many of the kata she teaches and their applications.

Today it seems that the huge group representing Shuri-Ryu are pulling in many different directions which saddens me.  It seems that any time groups pull apart rather than together it always makes losses in the art itself.  One group develops in one way and others develop in others and they eventually become so different that it is hard to consider them as teaching the same art anymore.  For instance, the ISA is currently in the process of adding 5 new kata to their curiculum of Shuri-Ryu, namely Hakutsuru 1-5.  in order to learn these forms you must attend the siminars where they are being taught one a year over the next five years.  Those of us who are not affiliated with their organization will not be adding them to our requirements and thus will be teaching something different.

I am finding my personal studies leading me into the Shorei-Ryu Group headed by Terry Sanders, not for it's unity but for it's common cause of preserving Trias Karate in all it's varried forms.  the Kondo No Shokai web sight has many interesting articles and information in it's archives covering many years of Trias Karate right up to the present.

Practicing with all these groups, except the current Shorei-Goju-Ryu, I can appreciate the many aspects of learning available.  At last count i have personaly learned and worked with over 180 kata taught through out the Trias Karate history.  Some more obscure than others but all teaching wonderful aspects of martial skill.  Some of these forms were never even officialy added to the curiulim of any of the branches but were only sent out as part of a USKA News letter or the like.  

I have trained over the years in many different styles but continue to find myself drawn to Trias Karate.  It has been an interesting experience.


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## SixStringSlayer (Mar 9, 2009)

I first studies Shorei-kan and I wanted to bone up on the techniques and when you search it books on goju-ryu come up and the only ones that mention shorei-kan are straight up goju-ryu books. I was talking to my best friend when he just started using goju-ryu and not the shorei-kan and he rattled off the whole history to me. I was a brown belt and he made black belt 2nd degree. and we both remember it fondly.


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