# Taekwondo: Art versus sport



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

Okay, this is a service to all:

If you wish to debate sport vs. art in TKD, here is a thread to do just that. It will even come up in the search: taekwondo sport vs. art.  Please *stop* making every thread about sport versus art!!!!

I will even kick it off:

The art and sport of taekwondo compliment eachother. Even WTF sport, which is fairly divorced from the rest of the art still contributes in a postitive way to the development of the taekwondoin. 

The art is taken as a whole, with sport being but one aspect of it.

There you are, the most despised thing that one can do in a debate: offer a moderate opinion.

Now have at and obey the forum rules.

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Nov 17, 2009)

Not every sport TKD-er ignores the art.  it IS possible to do both.

It is a poor assumption on those who *stereotype* sport TKD-ers to think that all they do is sport and dont practice the art.  it is possible to do both.


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

Daniel, 

As a moderate in this debate, do you think each can stand by itself?  Is there a point to training sport without also training the traditional side?  It would seem that there are plenty of examples of traditionalists that carry little elements of sport competition into their daily practice.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

Personally, the core issue here is not so much sport vs. art, but in many schools, all sparring being ignored outside of the sport sparring.

WTF sparring is alive sparring, something lacking in many other arts.  In concert with other types of alive training, it enhances the student.

Now, schools that do *only* sport do cause problems in terms of perception, but as long as they are up front about what they are doing, then let them do their thing and enjoy it.  I do wish that they would call it "sport taekwondo" rather than just taekwondo.  

Aside from that, I am happy doing what I am doing.  Whether or not another school does sport only has no bearing on my training.

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2009)

I love the Art!! I really love the self defense applications of Traditional TKD.  I love the tenets of TKD.  I love what all aspects of TKD have done for my kids.  My kids practice all aspects of TKD and compete in the sport.  I like everything about TKD. The sport and the art can and should coexist.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Daniel,
> 
> As a moderate in this debate, do you think each can stand by itself? Is there a point to training sport without also training the traditional side? It would seem that there are plenty of examples of traditionalists that carry little elements of sport competition into their daily practice.


Certainly, each can stand on their own.  

Sport is sport.  Football stands on its own as a sport.  You tackle a guy and bring him to the ground.  Why not submit him and make him tap out?  Because it is not wrestling.

Frankly, sport TKD for kids and teens is, in my opinion, very healthy, probably more so than many school athletic programs.  And the problems that TKD has as a sport are, quite honestly, virtual molehills compared to the mountain of hideousness that is modern professional athletics in this country.

Traditional *always* stands on its own and will always be a presence.  It does not need the sport specifically, but it should involve alive training if it is to be effective.  The traditional offers much that the sport does not, much that people past their athletic prime are interested in.

Daniel


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2009)

Great thread Daniel. The one thing that I don't think fits is the simple word "versus" The two do not compete with each other as they do as you said. coexist to help enhance one another.

At our school you can choose to do both if you want. The school starts everyone in the traditional art only and it touches on the sport side from a point of letting the kids have fun and spar once a month or so. That being the case we do have a sport side also, and if you are handpicked and asked to join then your training in the sport begins. That does not mean that you stop coming to class for the art, it just means that you now get to add to what the art gives you.

I can tell you that every kid that does the sport excels in the art. Why? Because he/she now have to train way beyond anyone that only takes the art. They train daily and on weekend and 2-4 hours each day. Sometimes they will train twice a day. There is more emphasis on speed, power, and doing techniques that the other kids don't get as much practice at. They take more hits and give more hits. These sport kids become faster, stronger, tougher. They have better endurance, technique, and understanding of everything.

Now because they also do regular class they actually push other kids to step up. We have 10 year olds that are in the sport, and once in regular class they destroy kids 4 to 5 years older. Just because they can move better and see better. They hit harder and with more precision. No these 10 year olds cannot beat any adults but once they become 16 they will.

The sport kids are also easier to teach as the sport gives them better discipline. They already know what it takes and are pushed harder than the regular kids.

Sport and Art are two sides of the same coin and yes you can have either side of the coin blank but when you make sure they are on the same coin together you have one special coin.

Just my .02


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

> At our school you can choose to do both if you want.




This is said by a lot of people.  I've expressed this opinion before, but I don't think you can do both on an elite level.  Not enough hours in the day.

It all gets back to what you consider to be traditional martial arts.  I get the sense that for many traditional martial arts just means typical commercial studio fare:  a little bit of forms, a little bit of self-defense, some light sparring.  Any real hoshinsul practice is thrown into the "Oh, that's hapkido" realm, so it's not done or thought of at all.

Granted, I teach a different art now than taekwondo (hold a 2nd dan in TKD though), but you couldn't complete my curriculum AND spend 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring.  *JUST CAN'T BE DONE*.

I'd love to see a full breakdown of what traditional martial arts means to the taekwondo people on MT.  That would surely go a far ways to determining whether there's sufficient time to practice both or not.


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> This is said by a lot of people. I've expressed this opinion before, but I don't think you can do both on an elite level. Not enough hours in the day.
> 
> It all gets back to what you consider to be traditional martial arts. I get the sense that for many traditional martial arts just means typical commercial studio fare: a little bit of forms, a little bit of self-defense, some light sparring. Any real hoshinsul practice is thrown into the "Oh, that's hapkido" realm, so it's not done or thought of at all.
> 
> ...


Dancing. I hear you but I have some questions to understand better as to why it can't be done.

1. How often do you train in a traditional standpoint?
2. How long are your classes in regards to time in each session?
3. How demanding is your training? Meaning are there many injuries?

Thanks.


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> This is said by a lot of people.  I've expressed this opinion before, but I don't think you can do both on an elite level.  Not enough hours in the day.
> 
> It all gets back to what you consider to be traditional martial arts.  I get the sense that for many traditional martial arts just means typical commercial studio fare:  a little bit of forms, a little bit of self-defense, some light sparring.  Any real hoshinsul practice is thrown into the "Oh, that's hapkido" realm, so it's not done or thought of at all.
> 
> ...


Our team is sport oriented at this time.  We have several fighters at the Elite level and 90% of the time is spent on sport Jan thru August. We then move to  more rounded curriculum Sept thru Dec.  We have some folks based on team trials and various other events train 90% of the time on the Sport.  Many Sport TKD people move back to more traditional TKD after thier sport career is over.


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

1. How often do you train in a traditional standpoint?

Is physical conditioning considered traditional?  If so, all my training time is traditional, between conditioning and practicing the system alone or with a partner.

2. How long are your classes in regards to time in each session?  

2 hours classes 2x a week.  My students are expected to train 3 times that amount outside of class independently.  I tell my student it's just like college in terms of commitment expectations.  It's very obvious when anyone slacks since they just don't recall the lessons learned previously or they lack fluency in repeating a specific movement I taught.

3. How demanding is your training? Meaning are there many injuries?

Plenty of bruises and bleeding.  Occasionally, someone will miss time from various ailments like knee or back problems.  How much of that is from martial arts training I have no idea, but I think surely it plays a part.  That's why I only accept physically active adults in my dojo; no wish to run a fitness gym or an infirmary.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> This is said by a lot of people. I've expressed this opinion before, but I don't think you can do both on an _*elite*_ level.Not enough hours in the day.


Elite?? Nobody with any sort of real life is going to have time to be "elite" in much of anything outside of their job. 

How about simple proficiency? Do we all have to be elite? Is a martial art not worth taking if you cannot be elite? Is the elite athlete the yardstick? If you are an olympic trainer, absolutely it is. But very, very few schools, even WTF schools are sending anyone to the olympics. Very few gyms send anyone to the olympics. There is a very limited number of people who have any hope of the olympics, in TKD or anything else for that matter.




dancingalone said:


> It all gets back to what you consider to be traditional martial arts. I get the sense that for many traditional martial arts just means typical commercial studio fare: a little bit of forms, a little bit of self-defense, some light sparring. Any real hoshinsul practice is thrown into the "Oh, that's hapkido" realm, so it's not done or thought of at all.


Really, is that such an awful thing? Granted, it is not my preferrence, but is it awful? Most people cannot realistically handle much more than this. And this is the market that such schools are designed to cater to. 

Most schools along those lines can offer more focused training in any of the above, and if the student sticks around, they will find their niche. Most students quit after black belt, but really the colored belt grades are supposed to give the student a more well rounded look at things and from there, they can focus in on sport, SD, breaking, or forms. Some people may do all of the above at different life stages if they stick with it long enough.




dancingalone said:


> Granted, I teach a different art now than taekwondo (hold a 2nd dan in TKD though), but you couldn't complete my curriculum AND spend 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring. *JUST CAN'T BE DONE*.


In fact, most people spending 2-4 hours a day sparring are not _elite _either. Most pro athletes are not 'elite' and their chosen sport is *all* that they do.  It takes a lot more than just hours logged to become elite in anything.




dancingalone said:


> I'd love to see a full breakdown of what traditional martial arts means to the taekwondo people on MT. That would surely go a far ways to determining whether there's sufficient time to practice both or not.


The word traditional is one of those hard to define words. Given the newness of taekwondo, I would venture that traditions are still sorting themselves out.

One view is that a "traditional" school is focused mainly on practical usage of the art and on the forms and breaking that are traditionally associated with karate based arts.

I still practice taekwondo and teach beginners and kids classes, but my main training focus these days is in hapkido, mainly because it is more of what I was looking for.

To me, a traditional would look a lot like a traditional karate school if it is more self defense oriented and a lot like a traditional kendo school if more sport oriented. 

I would think that the karate school would be self exclamatory, but allow me to explain the kendo school analogy. 

In a kendo school, there is a great degree of formality. The atmosphere is formal. The sparring is even very formal. Kata are expected to be done with precision and power. Different schools focus on the kata to greater or lesser degrees, some even offering a greater degree of bokken work, but the sparring is universal between them. Due to the bogu worn during sparring, the calisthenics and endurance work in kendo is *very* important.

Likewise, I see a traditional taekwondo school in the same light. Heavy emphasis on the basics through the keub grades, formal atmosphere, and mostly practical self defense and light contact sparring through the keub grades, with just enough sport here and there to whet the appetites of those who might want more at a higher level, say around second keub. 

That way, students are not fast tracked into sport sparring; it is held out as a reward to those who stick it out and become proficient in the basics of the art first.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Elite?? Nobody with any sort of real life is going to have time to be "elite" in much of anything outside of their job.
> 
> How about simple proficiency? Do we all have to be elite? Is a martial art not worth taking if you cannot be elite? Is the elite athlete the yardstick? If you are an olympic trainer, absolutely it is. But very, very few schools, even WTF schools are sending anyone to the olympics. Very few gyms send anyone to the olympics. There is a very limited number of people who have any hope of the olympics, in TKD or anything else for that matter.


 
Substitute proficient for elite if you'd like.  I don't think it changes the equation.  If you're spending 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring, you don't have room for anything else.  Unless you don't have a job or schooling, I guess.





> Really, is that such an awful thing? Granted, it is not my preferrence, but is it awful? Most people cannot realistically handle much more than this. And this is the market that such schools are designed to cater to.



No, there's nothing wrong with a 'light' curriculum at all if that's all one has the time or the interest level for.  What I dislike is that when we fall into these sport discussions, there's always multiple people that say they do both.  I simply want to peel at the onion and understand what they mean by that.  If all traditional martial arts means is some light sparring and a cursory working of forms, then I fully understand where they are coming from.  If they mean traditional martial arts along the lines of what I expect to see, then no I don't agree it's possible to do both.




> In fact, most people spending 2-4 hours a day sparring are not _elite _either. Most pro athletes are not 'elite' and their chosen sport is *all* that they do.  It takes a lot more than just hours logged to become elite in anything.



Actually I understand most boxers spend less than an hour a day (if even that) doing live sparring.  Too much risk of injury.  They do lots of other drills however, including hitting pads.



> The word traditional is one of those hard to define words. Given the newness of taekwondo, I would venture that traditions are still sorting themselves out.



Yep.



> One view is that a "traditional" school is focused mainly on practical usage of the art and on the forms and breaking that are traditionally associated with karate based arts.
> ----
> Likewise, I see a traditional taekwondo school in the same light. Heavy emphasis on the basics through the keub grades, formal atmosphere, and mostly practical self defense and light contact sparring through the keub grades, with just enough sport here and there to whet the appetites of those who might want more at a higher level, say around second keub.
> 
> Daniel



Perhaps another thread, but I believe the relative poverty of what passes for "traditional" within taekwondo is due to the broken chain of knowledge from Okinawa to Japan to Korea.


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> 1. How often do you train in a traditional standpoint?
> 
> Is physical conditioning considered traditional? If so, all my training time is traditional, between conditioning and practicing the system alone or with a partner.
> 
> ...


Well I could certainly see how number 3 could lessen the effort put into trying to do both. To avoid injury you would most certainly not put forth your best effort in a traditional sense if you knew you had a major tournament coming up just to avoid injury.

As for question 1 and 2, I don't see them being a problem at all. In fact I see the sport side enhancing or helping.

I can only speak for my kids and maybe 1 other that I train or help train personally with the sport and in tradition and they all spend 5 hours per day in the Dojang.

Now there is such a thing as tournament season and that season is where you ramp up your sport training. During the off season the competitors only need to keep in relatively good shape. A little before and during the tournament season they will spend more and more time in and out of the Dojang getting into top shape and most times will not be able to physically do both as rest is just as important as training. But there are off days. Off days to use does not mean to do nothing it is to do lightly or less than a heavy training day. On those days they do still go to class.

I have stated above in this thread, all of the kids, (I say kids but cause to me 20's and down are kids) that do the sport are much better all around than any of the non sport kids. This is because the sport is so physically demanding. They come to the art classes already hardened.

I do think you can do both and both well.


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> I do think you can do both and both well.



So what exactly is traditional martial arts training to you?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> So what exactly is traditional martial arts training to you?


Though you asked what traditional training is to ATC, I will give a follow up to my earlier answer.

For the most part, I see "traditional" as more of an atmosphere.  A dedicated sport school will certainly hit a lot of the same areas as a "hard core" traditional school.  If you are going to be competative, then you are looking at a lot of intensive training, hard sparring, and physical conditioning.

The major difference is that the end goal of competition machine vs. human wrecking ball.

Personally, a "traditional Taekwondo school" will have at least three of the following, with the first two a must:

Dobok with belts (as opposed to whatever they wear in MMA).
Poomsae/hyung/tul
Korean terminology
Breaking
Conditioning for said breaking
Step sparring
Hoshinsul
Alive sparring with a fairly full set of targets and use of both feet *and    *hands.
Sport sparring

Traditionally, taekwondo has no weapons curriculum, so I did not include it in the list. 

Sport sparring has been a part of taekwondo all along, so I do consider it traditional.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2009)

Let me chime in here: I see two problems right off the bat.

1. Why is it bad to do both and become efficent at them both at the same time? I see plenty of dual athletes in other sports, it is simply time management at it best. Zachary goes to school from 8 AM to 4 PM M-F, he does his homework from 4-6 pm everyday, he works on his Traditional side of TKD from 6:30 to 7:30 M-F and from 1-4 on Saturday. He joins the fight team that is simply the sportside of TKD from 7:30 - 9:30 M-F and Saturday 9-1. Sunday is simply family workout days and fun day with Saturday night being what the kids want to do. Zachary has been improving alot at the sportside and he is becoming a great Traditional TKDer as well.

2. Sport Versus tardition what kind of statement is that since they both have so much in common when it is tought the right way. The sport can help bring timing, movement and practical evasion to the art side. I have been training people for thirty years and have always seen the value in both.

I wish people could relized that not all people are created equal and what alot of folks on these so called chat line forget alot is the few that are that talented seem to be alot but when you fractor in how many people do TKD the percentage is probly like .00001%, so even though there are alot of folks on the board for the sport and there student or child can excel at both in the end it is like 1 in a million that can become great at both atthe sametime.

Sport helps bring that sense of accomplimished to alot of youth taken TKD sport, it is the same when a football player plays his sport, lets remember what is the bottom line is a playing field that help our childern grow and become preductive citizen in today world.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> 1. Why is it bad to do both and become efficent at them both at the same time?


 
It is not bad at all, though I have yet to see anybody claim that it is.  



terryl965 said:


> 2. Sport Versus tardition what kind of statement is that since they both have so much in common when it is tought the right way. The sport can help bring timing, movement and practical evasion to the art side. I have been training people for thirty years and have always seen the value in both.


I agree 100%!  But then, I am the moderate around here.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Poomsae/hyung/tul
> Korean terminology
> Breaking
> Conditioning for said breaking
> ...



And that's a rather ambitious list even without the sport sparring.  

The key is how deep into any of these items do you go.  Do you just learn the patterns, or do you learn formal applications for each movement in the form?  Do your applications build on top of one another, such that the advanced interpretations still use discrete concepts from the introductory ones?  Do you practice the various implied locks and throws and body strikes outside of the form?  Does your form work teach you proper body structure so you understand how to resist or divert force from an attacker, whether with a direct strike or otherwise?  Do you understand how to make technical adaptations to the form such as stance or striking changes and what the implication will be to usage?

I used pattern work above as an example and only brought out a small fraction of the training aspects my own teacher taught me.  All the other items like breaking (did you know you can break water?  ) have similar level of challenges to them.

At the same time, I respect the dedication required to excel in sports martial arts.  I know it's hard, requiring much athleticism and dedication.  All I wish is for traditional training to receive its own modicum of respect.  Contrary to what some may think, it isn't a paint-by-the-numbers act.


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> 1. Why is it bad to do both and become efficent at them both at the same time? I see plenty of dual athletes in other sports, it is simply time management at it best. Zachary goes to school from 8 AM to 4 PM M-F, he does his homework from 4-6 pm everyday, he works on his Traditional side of TKD from 6:30 to 7:30 M-F and from 1-4 on Saturday. He joins the fight team that is simply the sportside of TKD from 7:30 - 9:30 M-F and Saturday 9-1. Sunday is simply family workout days and fun day with Saturday night being what the kids want to do. Zachary has been improving alot at the sportside and he is becoming a great Traditional TKDer as well.



Well, Terry, here's my 1st dan belt test curriculum.  Granted it's not TKD, but I hope you can see where I am coming from.

Demonstrate all basic stances and stance shifts
Demonstrate all hand strikes and kicks in random combinations
Demonstrate breaking power with hands (minimum 3 boards), kicks (minimum 3 boards) and in combination (minimum 4 boards in less than 5 seconds with at least 3 techniques)

Sanchin testing:
sanchin performed 10 times in a row (usually takes 45 min to an hour) with INTENSE shime testing 

kata:
 gekkisai dai ichi
gekkisai dai ni
saifa
gekiha
seiunchin
shisochin
sanseiru 

optional kata (any two from this list):
pinan yondan
pinan godan
naihanchi shodan
passai
shorin-ryu seisan

formal bunkai sets (many TKD students won't be familiar with them, but they are essentially two man katas which teach the surface level applications to the solo kata; this is an example video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCj1_x77Ms">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCj1_x77Ms</a> :
kihon bunkai gekkisai dai ichi
kihon bunkai  gekkisai dai ni
kihon bunkai  saifa
kihon bunkai  gekiha
kihon bunkai  seiunchin
kihon bunkai  shisochin
kihon bunkai  sanseiru 

meditation & breath control:
demonstrate proper breathing during the test and during a formal observation period

impromtu bunkai demonstration:
at least two from each of the following kata
sanchin
gekkisai dai ichi or dai ni
saifa
seiunchin
shisochin
sanseiru

aiki/jujutsu/judo techniques done from both sides in response to straight or round blow:
ikkyo
nikyo
sankyo
yonkyo
kotegaeshi
shihonage
iriminage
kaitenage
o goshi
o guruma
osoto gari
osoto guruma
tomoe nage
deashi harai
ippon seionage

self-defense (using movements from kata):
wrist grab
cross wrist grab
lapel grab
front choke
rear choke
bear hug
rear bear hug
prone position with someone on top
knife attacks (4)
club attacks (4)
chain attack

kobudo:
kihon-kata-no-bo
kihon-kata-no-bo
tokomine-no-kun (sho)
                    kumi bo nidan 
bo/bo kumite #1 
                    kihon-kata-no-tonfa
tokomine-no-kun (dai)
bo/bo kumite #2
bamahiga-no-tonfa (sho)
                    bo/tonfa kumite #1

jiyu kumite:
3 rounds of 1 vs. 1 
2 rounds of 2 vs. 1
1 round of 3 vs. 1
1 round vs. any brown belt or dan holder present who wishes to test the candidate
1 round vs. me


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2009)

Dancingalone here is my BB test for 15 and up, the younger ones do about 25% compared to the adults and the list is long.

Day 1 Conditioning 500 push ups, sit ups, crunches, sqaut thurst, sqaurts, calf raises, JNJs,MTn Climbers and run five miles.

Day 2 we start of with punches - Lead hand reverse, lead hand ridge hand, lead hand backfist, lead hand uppercut, leadhand hook, lead hand overhand, hammerfist. This is normanly around 100 on each side. Once we are done with that it goes to kicks and we do about 50 kicks on both legs - fast Kick, blrh,axe kick all variations, crestcent kick, inside out/outside in, back swing, heal rake, back kick, side kick all variation as well. On a bad day they throws around 10,000 kicks and 5000 punches. Afterwards it is time for one steps they need to preform atleast 25, then two step which is 20 and three steps which is 15. Now it is time for poomsae all the tae gueks, all the Tuls, and even the Palgues.

Day 3 is simply sparing one on one and then two on one and then three on one. It consist of about thirty fights. This is too make sure they have the heart to be a BB. If they do the sport they also have fights withen there sport as well as point and continous point sparring. They must also demostrate they have good enough ground game as well and also there self defense. The last thing is breaking one, two and three boards and also bricks.

One thing I forgot to mention is there essay and question and answer part which is difficult for some because they really do hate that part. I have always believe a test is about how much you are willing to go to be a BB, I already know they have talent or skill but are the mentally ready for it and that is the whole part of there test.

Not trying to get into a pissing match but I expect alot and that is why it takes five to seven years to get to BB with me and it takes that long for a poom ranks as well. I do not believe in givivng rank or buying rank just earn it you will be so much happier when it is done right.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> Not every sport TKD-er ignores the art.  it IS possible to do both.
> 
> It is a poor assumption on those who *stereotype* sport TKD-ers to think that all they do is sport and dont practice the art.  it is possible to do both.




you cant do them both WELL

they are dimetricly opposed to each other, they both teach habits that DO NOT WORK on the other side.

you CAN do both, but i have YET to see someone that could do both WELL.


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## dancingalone (Nov 17, 2009)

Terry, the only question I would have is about "they must also demostrate they have good enough ground game as well and also there self defense."

Again it has to do with how detailed you choose to be.  The other items you list in bareform are certainly attainable in practice along with sports sparring.  And in fact, a lot of sport sparring would likely prepare you well for the test you describe.

I can see why you say you teach both.  It's not my vision of TMA though.  I say that with all due respect.  No insult meant at all.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you cant do them both WELL
> 
> they are dimetricly opposed to each other, they both teach habits that DO NOT WORK on the other side.
> 
> you CAN do both, but i have YET to see someone that could do both WELL.


 
Just because you have not does not mean they cannot. TW I train people all the time in both some adapt to it others go one way or the other, it is solely up to each individual as to what is more important at that time in there life. Remember all great Martial Artist at one time or another have done some type of tournament whether it is at anactual event or just inside the dojo/dojaang. Please go and tell GM Kurban that tournament sparing is the thing that destroys TKD and listen to him tell you why it can and should co-exist with each other. People that do Olympic or point still learn the Art if they chooses to.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Terry, the only question I would have is about "they must also demostrate they have good enough ground game as well and also there self defense."
> 
> Again it has to do with how detailed you choose to be. The other items you list in bareform are certainly attainable in practice along with sports sparring. And in fact, a lot of sport sparring would likely prepare you well for the test you describe.
> 
> I can see why you say you teach both. It's not my vision of TMA though. I say that with all due respect. No insult meant at all.


 
I can appreciate everything you say and I do not believe you are trying to insult anybody, it is hard sometimes to put in words everything you require as a school but believe me I only want the best for all my students. I mean if they are simply here to get in shape I expect alot from them or if they are here to loose wieght the same. I believe the TMA has a different goal for each student and can see where some can believ and others cannot. I simply think we all can respect each other enough and have a decussion about anything here without the flame wars that keep popping up all the time.:asian:


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

we Terry, all I can say is that i havnt seen it.

maybe it is possible, but i aint never seen it.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> we Terry, all I can say is that i havnt seen it.
> 
> maybe it is possible, but i aint never seen it.


 

I understand TW and like always I respect your point of view all I am saying it can be done. Now with that being said I do not believe that 99% of Olympic fighters can train both ways but from the standpoint of learning tradition first and then Olympic it can be done and I have seen it.


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## dortiz (Nov 17, 2009)

" Why is it bad to do both and become efficent at them both at the same time? I see plenty of dual athletes in other sports"

Big difference! You fight as you train.

I like what sport TKD is and get what it offers. But what it does not do is teach self defense or good fighting skills.

Talk to the pioneers. Conditioning, hard sparring, learning to take shots and keep fighting- severe training. It is a Killing Art. 
Sorry but sport TKD needs the arms down for speed and balance etc. This does not work for fighting. I cant win a point to save my life but except for a few I can take out just about all I spar with. Thats because I fight different. I condition my shins and block with them, heck I kick with them. I NEVER spar with hands down and always strike to the head. Again point/sport I suck but I can knock some of the best down, So in self defense I am a winner but in sport I am suckerama supreme.
I think you can work in some stuff and yes afterwards change the focus but to do both is not like playing baseball and football. We are talking about muscle memory and response which you do based on how you train. If you practice for rules you will respond as such. 
THIS DOES NOT MAKE SPORT BAD. It does make translating to self defense harder.
Exceptions yes but the rule will be no. The average person wont be able to teach themselves to do two different responses. Those that do, wow.

Dave O.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2009)

Dortiz I can see your point but I still believe it can be done, I know I am still here because of my skills and I know both sides of TKD sport/SD. I guess it is the good lords intention for me to be here so in the end how many MA'ers ever really use what they have been tought what like less than one percent?


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## MSUTKD (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you cant do them both WELL
> 
> they are dimetricly opposed to each other, they both teach habits that DO NOT WORK on the other side.
> 
> you CAN do both, but i have YET to see someone that could do both WELL.


 

I can ...... but I am in shape.


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2009)

MSUTKD said:


> I can ...... but I am in shape.




Many can!!!


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## dortiz (Nov 17, 2009)

Ron do you also point spar as well as form competition.? I ask because your form skills clearly translate to a more self defense based style. I bet if you do both the forms provide the balance. I worry more about the very competitive schools some of which don't do the forms at all. 
And they don't have to, its just that many claim self defense when its not.

Also yup, you have to be in shape to fight. : )

Dave O.


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2009)

dortiz said:


> Ron do you also point spar as well as form competition.? I ask because your form skills clearly translate to a more self defense based style. I bet if you do both the forms provide the balance. I worry more about the very competitive schools some of which don't do the forms at all.
> *And they don't have to, its just that many claim self defense when its not.
> *
> Also yup, you have to be in shape to fight. : )
> ...



"And they don't have to, its just that many claim self defense when its not". dortiz

I don't know anyone in Sport TKD that claims it is self defense.  It is a Sport!!!  The level of fitness that is required to do Sport TKD at a high level helps in self defense.  The way that you fight in Sport TKD would get you hurt in a Self Defense situation.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 17, 2009)

MSUTKD said:


> I can ...... but I am in shape.




Michigan?

oh man, not again.

ok, assuming you are not who i think you are, if you have to say you can, and do so WHILE taking a cheap shot, you prob cant.


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## dortiz (Nov 17, 2009)

I have been around the block long enough to spot who can walk the talk, and he can

Dave O.


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## d1jinx (Nov 17, 2009)

ok....

Another stereotype that keeps getting thrown around...

ALL olympic style TKD-ers fight with thier hands down...  I dont.  

Sure many do, but that is one of my biggest pet peeves.  I HATE seeing people flopping around with their hands by thier knees.....

I enjoy tie-ing their belts around their chest with thier arms up and hands at thier chin...  

You can do sport TKD with your hands up u know!


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## d1jinx (Nov 17, 2009)

dortiz said:


> I have been around the block long enough to spot who can walk the talk, and he can
> 
> Dave O.


 

Who?  i missed something.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> ok....
> 
> Another stereotype that keeps getting thrown around...
> 
> ...


Unless you are in the olympics, you are not an olympic taekwondoist.  Schools that train 'olympic' style are simply sparring under WTF rules.  Technically, there is no olympic style.  Nor is there a WTF style.  Kind of like there is not a UFC style.  Just a tournament with a set of specific rules.

For the record, I do not keep my hand down either.  I am proficient in sparring, though hardly elite.  I do not have the interest in the sport to devote the time to it to become elite.  My hat is off to those who do.

Sadly, my time is finite, so I spend it doing what offers me the greatest returns, and sport taekwondo is not it.  I do still participate in that portion of the class and I do compete when the school goes to tournaments, but I look really out of place when I do.  For me, WTF sparring is a means of improving my kicks.  If I do well (sometimes I do) then so much the better.

My personal school of thought is that one should not train to the tournament.  Train to be the best that you can be.  Then go to the tournament, use what they allow and see how you do.

Daniel


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## MSUTKD (Nov 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Michigan?
> 
> oh man, not again.
> 
> ok, assuming you are not who i think you are, if you have to say you can, and do so WHILE taking a cheap shot, you prob cant.


 

John, you know who I am.  We are even Facebook buds.

ron


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Substitute proficient for elite if you'd like.  I don't think it changes the equation.  If you're spending 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring, you don't have room for anything else.  Unless you don't have a job or schooling, I guess.


Well, I agree with you about the math, but to be merely proficient in the technique set does not require that level of daily commitment.  To be competitive?  That is another story.  To be elite?  Better have a sponsor.

I spend time practicing daily, generally at different times throughout the day rather than all in one block.  I make four classes a week in both taekwondo and hapkido.  Two to three a week in kumdo (he only has three days where the class is held at present), one day of which I teach.  Hapkido and kumdo I am pouring a lot of myself into.  Taekwondo I pretty much do maintenance training and teach one of the kids classes. 

I am certainly proficient in fighting under the WTF rule set.  But I do not train to the rule set.  I simply train to execute the techniques of the art to the best of my ability.  When doing WTF sparring, I simply limit myself to the legal techniques.  As I said in my other thread, I look very much different from the typical WTF sport taekwondoist.  

I definitely hear you on the time thing, and most likely, TKD will shift to back burner next year, as there are only but so many hours in the day.

Daniel


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## MSUTKD (Nov 18, 2009)

I have medaled nationally in USA Taekwondo in both forms and fighting. I have trained and fought with Olympic, World and National medalists in my career and I respect the true fighting ability of these people though many could not do any forms. For me to judge any of these fighters when I have never even fought at their level is just plain hypocrisy and as a model, I would never do it. When you talk a big game to cover your inadequacies, fears and regrets you leave a trace in your students. If and when they see this, you will have destroyed all that they worked for. If, however, you are careful not to make blanket statements about things you really do not know and encourage your students to see the positive labors of high level athletes you will gain their trust. EXAMPLE &#8211; I do not think that MMA is a martial &#8220;art&#8221; BUT they are amazing fighters and athletes. I do not knock them and certainly make no claims that I could beat them. Because of this I train many MMA guys how taekwondo people kick and I get to train with them and learn stuff too. I want my students to find the &#8220;art/sport&#8221; that gives them passion even if it is not the one I do or the way I do it.

I for one do not see ANY difference in the so called &#8220;art&#8221; or &#8220;sport&#8221;. These are labels for those who do not want to really find out about combat but rather make excuses (on both sides). The art teaches us the basic skills, ways of thought and beginnings of physical ability. The sport gives us a method of testing our understanding of fighting and developing into an athlete. Sorry, but if you are not in shape YOU CANNOT FIGHT ON THE DEADLY STREETS! They create a balance. We as individuals will find which path fits us for the time. Both have many lessons to teach and if your basics are good then moving in and out of each is possible. Many people on this board that I actually know in person DO BOTH and are very good at it.

I for one am done fighting now; I did my time and I tried my best. I still like to compete so I got into the Poomsae thing and am competing at the highest level I can. My real passion is teaching but I cannot really be a good teacher if I have not been there or at least gave my best; which allows us to learn the lessons to PASS ON to the next generation.


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## dortiz (Nov 18, 2009)

There really is no point in arguing what each person knows or feels. Ron, I agree they are top players but I also feel very strongly from watching their habits and having sparred some top competitors that their training has led to them to some bad fighting habits. Do I need to be right or wrong, NO.
What I challenge the sport side folks is to take some time and change your sparring. Have people watch you and and add controlled head shots and leg blocks etc. See what your habits are. 
Muscle memory and reaction is VERY hard to control and change.

Sadly for me it will be way easier for them to adjust to fighting style versus for me to ever get their level in what they do : (

Dave O.


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## terryl965 (Nov 18, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Michigan?
> 
> oh man, not again.
> 
> ok, assuming you are not who i think you are, if you have to say you can, and do so WHILE taking a cheap shot, you prob cant.


 
TW I am sure you know who Master Southwick is and how much talent he has. Come on can we just get along.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

MSUTKD said:


> I for one do not see ANY difference in the so called art or sport. These are labels for those who do not want to really find out about combat but rather make excuses (on both sides). The art teaches us the basic skills, ways of thought and beginnings of physical ability. The sport gives us a method of testing our understanding of fighting and developing into an athlete. Sorry, but if you are not in shape YOU CANNOT FIGHT ON THE DEADLY STREETS!



I disagree with the first sentence.  What I see as sport is a smaller, specialized set of skills worked to a high level for use in an activity with very confined rules.  There are tactics and techniques developed entirely for the 'game' with little regard or thought for adaptation outside.

I'm still not sure what most of you mean by "traditional martial art", but I look at it from a concrete systems standpoint, including kicks, strikes, blocks, locks, throws.  Granted there is some overlap, particularly with kicks, but the fighting range is much broader in the overall system, with close, medium, and long-range attacks developed and defended against.  The sole weakness is the lack of a ground range, but that's rather common in striking systems.  There is some clinch work in sport sparring, but it would be incorrect to state that as much effort is expended to gain effectiveness in all ranges.  And we've yet to even think about locks or pins or even a simple elbow to the face.

From a purely technical perspective, the argument that sport is the same as "art" cannot stand.  As for being in shape, that's true enough.  Being strong and quick can only help you whether you do TKD or boxing/MMA or whatever.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am certainly proficient in fighting under the WTF rule set.  But I do not train to the rule set.  I simply train to execute the techniques of the art to the best of my ability.  When doing WTF sparring, I simply limit myself to the legal techniques.  As I said in my other thread, I look very much different from the typical WTF sport taekwondoist.



Then I respectfully submit, Daniel, that you're not doing both sport sparring and traditional martial arts.  You're practicing traditional martial arts, period.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> ok....
> You can do sport TKD with your hands up u know!



Can you?  I was led to understand by a previous post on the forum that keeping your hands up makes you very vulnerable to a roundhouse kick to the sides, and that's why hands are invariably down at the highest levels of the sport.


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## dortiz (Nov 18, 2009)

As re read I want to stress that its not bad to be great at the sport aspect. Its freakin awesome.
But its training to do something different than self defense, and it is "training" your body to move and react a certain way. 
Some folks say they dont claim self defense, others say they are the same art.
Its to this argument that I believe there is fair discussion. Again, I wont try to prove anything on the internet but I do challenge those folks to find ways to test their boundaries.  
I have sat on Black Belt tests and heard the kids say now I know how to defend myself. It scares me. Thats the only reason I keep typing.

Dave O.


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## ACJ (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Can you?  I was led to understand by a previous post on the forum that keeping your hands up makes you very vulnerable to a roundhouse kick to the sides, and that's why hands are invariably down at the highest levels of the sport.



You certainly can. Especially with creative use of your shins, fists and feet, you can do well at all levels of competitive wtf style sparring. And I would judge that the invariably down comment unfair. Even though keeping your hands down is the predominant choice of high level athletes, even they do not keep their hands down. There's actually a fair amount of movement of their hands from down to guarding the face from kicks and to a clinch hold.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

ACJ said:


> You certainly can. Especially with creative use of your shins, fists and feet, you can do well at all levels of competitive wtf style sparring. And I would judge that the invariably down comment unfair. Even though keeping your hands down is the predominant choice of high level athletes, even they do not keep their hands down. There's actually a fair amount of movement of their hands from down to guarding the face from kicks and to a clinch hold.



<shrugs>  They're always down in the matches I watch.  It is what it is.  

The explanation I was given about why they are down made sense to me.  The roundhouse kick to the side has got to be one of the quickest sport kicks out there so it's logical to guard against that first.


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## dortiz (Nov 18, 2009)

Maybe ACJ but even coming in from the clinch the hands are not driving at the head. This is because that would be a penalty. So you are training to react a certain way. Again great to win that round but not great for fighting. 
I am almost shocked because I was ready to hear how we dont need to fight and all the benefits that sport adds to the people and kids. A losing argument for me, really. I was not prepared to hear " we train one way but are really good at acting another"
I just dont see that in anything. As a matter of fact even in cross sports you will hear a comment of " he did it that way because of his X training.

Dave O.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Can you? I was led to understand by a previous post on the forum that keeping your hands up makes you very vulnerable to a roundhouse kick to the sides, and that's why hands are invariably down at the highest levels of the sport.


Both are technically correct.  At the highest levels, yes they invariably maintain a lower guard, but there is no rule that prevents you from maintaining a more classical stance and guard.

Likewise, you can certainly keep your hands up.  In the last tournament I competed in, I saw a mix of both.  I did not count the kids in this, as most of them just kept their hands generally in front of them or had them at their sides kind of uninintentionally.

In terms of teens and adults, it seemed to break down like this: if you were hot to trot with rankings and training specifically to win tournaments, you maintained a low guard.  Everyone else seemed to have a more classical stance and simply limited their attacks to what was allowed within the rule set.

Consider: very, very few who take up taekwondo ever get anywhere near the highest levels (and most know do not have aspirations to do so), so most of them tend to revert to a hands up guard.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Nov 18, 2009)

Enough has been said ; )


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2009)

dortiz said:


> Enough has been said ; )


So does that mean that this topic will cease to infect every other thread in the taekwondo section?

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So does that mean that this topic will cease to infect every other thread in the taekwondo section?
> 
> Daniel



Nope.  This past week's backlash had probably been building given the preponderance of sport topics on the boards recently.  I still wish Bob would make separate boards for the TKD section.


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## ACJ (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs>  They're always down in the matches I watch.  It is what it is.
> 
> The explanation I was given about why they are down made sense to me.  The roundhouse kick to the side has got to be one of the quickest sport kicks out there so it's logical to guard against that first.



What matches do you watch? Did you watch the Olympic Taekwondo sparring? Just watched a couple videos to check, most seem to be throwing their hands up.


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## ACJ (Nov 18, 2009)

dortiz said:


> Maybe ACJ but even coming in from the clinch the hands are not driving at the head. This is because that would be a penalty. So you are training to react a certain way. Again great to win that round but not great for fighting.
> I am almost shocked because I was ready to hear how we dont need to fight and all the benefits that sport adds to the people and kids. A losing argument for me, really. I was not prepared to hear " we train one way but are really good at acting another"
> I just dont see that in anything. As a matter of fact even in cross sports you will hear a comment of " he did it that way because of his X training.
> 
> Dave O.



I didn't say anything about driving at the head, and mostly in Taekwondo matches, even without penalty would that be a good idea.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

ACJ said:


> What matches do you watch? Did you watch the Olympic Taekwondo sparring? Just watched a couple videos to check, most seem to be throwing their hands up.



I'm not going to argue about this with you.  Empirical evidence is good enough for me, particularly when many of the board members who do participate in WTF-rules competition agree this is a hallmark, albeit for good reason.


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## ACJ (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I'm not going to argue about this with you.  Empirical evidence is good enough for me, particularly when many of the board members who do participate in WTF-rules competition agree this is a hallmark, albeit for good reason.



How many of them train with Olympic athletes? And it is hardly for good reason either, keeping them down ALL the time is  a sure-fire way to get your head knocked off.


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## bluekey88 (Nov 18, 2009)

I've been unable o comment on this topic due to being insanely busy...amd I've missed a post here and there...so forgive me if I repeat previously made points.

About the low guard....here's what I tell my kids....low guard does not mean NO guard.

What I mean is that for competition, we encourage a low guard.  Front hand down low to protect from a fast roundhouse to the body.  Back hand up by the solar plexus to guard the body nd able to move to gaurd the head.  If I see :floppy fish hands" I yell...sometimes hand out extra push ups.  

the really elite super fast kids can get away with no guard...but they've got outstanding footwork....most players don't have that.  So they need a low gaurd.

When my kids are in regular classes not comp team practice), hands are up in a more classical boxing-type gaurd....because it's more important to protect the head.  It is up to the well trained, well-developed TKD'ist to determine what situation w=they are in and adapt the guard, tactics and strategy to meet the situation.  

Training in sport develops one set of skills with a fair degree of carry over (conditioning, speed, positional awareness, timing, distance, power, taking hits, balance, etc.) while classical training with focus on SD develops a different set of skills (with a fair degree of overlap).  Sport training is really just a subset of traditional training (along with poomse, breaking, hoshinsul, etc.).  

Now, to be a top level player, you probably have to make SD training less important for a time (especially around major tournaments), but that doesn;t mean that it never happens.  Nor does it mean that sport tkd enthusiasts don't have, can't develop, don't care about developing.maintaing an SD skill set.  

What I don't get is the people who just HATE sport tkd.  Why hate?  Sure you can dislike...not want ot participate in...not understand..whatever...but HATE?  That's an awful strong word.  Life's too short to hate, and I don't see where the sportive aspect of the art is destroying anything.  

Dodgy business practices, poor professional ethics, political infighting are more a danger to the art than the sport.  Those things are in every aspect of TKD and other martial arts, regardless of style or organization.  You want to hate?  Hate the unethical leaders who drag all of us through the mud and lay off the poor kids who just want to have fun doing something they enjoy.

Peace,
Erik


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## dortiz (Nov 18, 2009)

I didn't say anything about driving at the head, and mostly in Taekwondo matches, even without penalty would that be a good idea.


To practice fighting, yes!


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## ACJ (Nov 18, 2009)

dortiz said:


> I didn't say anything about driving at the head, and mostly in Taekwondo matches, even without penalty would that be a good idea.
> 
> 
> To practice fighting, yes!



To practice fighting, despite the sport? Not a good idea. To practice fighting using the sport. Good idea.


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## Archtkd (Nov 18, 2009)

Folks Im fairly new in the community so I hope this does not make me sound silly or sarcastic. I do not really want to offend anyone, but I cant understand why the passions in this thread have risen so high, bordering on violence. 

Arent this still the elements of WTF taekwondo, which I have practiced for 23 years abroad and in the U.S? Basic Training (Kibon Dongjak), Self Defense (Hosinsool), Forms (Poomsae), Breaking (Gyupka) and Sparring (Gyorugi)? If we continue to learn and teach those things within the core tenets: Courtesy (Ye Lu), Integrity (Yom Chi), Perseverance (In Nae), Self Control (Guk Gi) and Indomitable Spirit (Baekjul Boogol), are we wrong? 

I ask those questions because I own a school in which the bulk of my students are working adults, who want to learn WTF Taekwondo even though they have no intention of going to the Olympics. I also teach seniors (60-plus) and children  no younger than 7  and they too learn the elements, even though the majority of them are not going to compete in tournaments. I have younger students who are really talented in Olympic style sparring, but they too have to practice the other elements of Taekwondo. 

Do I, or must I be forced to call my dojang a traditional or sport TKD school? No. Its just a WTF style Taekwondo school.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2009)

Archtkd said:


> Folks Im fairly new in the community so I hope this does not make me sound silly or sarcastic. I do not really want to offend anyone, but I cant understand why the passions in this thread have risen so high, bordering on violence.


I am still trying to figure that one out.  I started this thread mainly so that I can tell people to go to it when they raise this debate in every other topic in which they post, regardless of how unrelated that topic may be.



Archtkd said:


> Arent this still the elements of WTF taekwondo, which I have practiced for 23 years abroad and in the U.S? Basic Training (Kibon Dongjak), Self Defense (Hosinsool), Forms (Poomsae), Breaking (Gyupka) and Sparring (Gyorugi)? If we continue to learn and teach those things within the core tenets: Courtesy (Ye Lu), Integrity (Yom Chi), Perseverance (In Nae), Self Control (Guk Gi) and Indomitable Spirit (Baekjul Boogol), are we wrong?


This has been my experience as well.  



Archtkd said:


> I ask those questions because I own a school in which the bulk of my students are working adults, who want to learn WTF Taekwondo even though they have no intention of going to the Olympics. I also teach seniors (60-plus) and children  no younger than 7  and they too learn the elements, even though the majority of them are not going to compete in tournaments. I have younger students who are really talented in Olympic style sparring, but they too have to practice the other elements of Taekwondo.
> 
> Do I, or must I be forced to call my dojang a traditional or sport TKD school? No. Its just a WTF style Taekwondo school.


Your student body sounds like that of many schools.  Everyone is exposed to the full art and once they have gone through the keub ranks can focus in on whatever aspect it is that interests them most.  If they stick around for any length of time, that focus will likely change.  Sport tends to be the focus of the young, SD the focus of those over 30, with a forms focus being more of a personal preference: some people just love doing forms, others find them tedious no matter how good they are at it.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

Archtkd said:


> Folks Im fairly new in the community



Arch, I don't really have a beef with anything you posted.  I don't even really have a beef with sport tkd (I support it, just not how it's currently implemented).

I feel like a broken record, but my contention is with those who don't give traditional martial arts enough respect.  It seems to be assumed that if you're good at the sport, you'll also be good at the other side, too.  I argue that there are entire skill sets within the traditional base that are not practiced at all within the sporting context.  The sensitivity needed to execute certain locks and throws are completely different from the sense of timing you develop scoring points with an esoteric kick to the head.  This is only one example out of thousands.

I believe I am a skilled martial artist and I spent an entire decade in my youth burning through my trust fund doing nothing but traveling and studying my chosen arts from a handful of good teachers.  I say sincerely I could not have attained my current level of skill (not bragging at all, by the way - I don't believe I am exceptionally talented - I just had money and time) and managed to have learned the sport side too to my satisfaction.

So that's my rant.  Time is finite.  So are effort, creativity, and learning opportunities.  Let's be realistic and realize that knowing the choreography to a few patterns along with a few stock defenses to a wrist grab DOES NOT equate to you doing the 'traditional' side well.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> Training in sport develops one set of skills with a fair degree of carry over (conditioning, speed, positional awareness, timing, distance, power, taking hits, balance, etc.) while classical training with focus on SD develops a different set of skills (with a fair degree of overlap).  Sport training is really just a subset of traditional training (along with poomse, breaking, hoshinsul, etc.).



Erik, I believe there's actually less overlap than you state from my perspective.  For example, I focus a lot of my time teaching stances:  purpose, how they fit within the concept of body structure, how they relate to movement, etc.  The usual classical stuff you see in any 'old' system that over time teaches you how to avoid blows even when you seemingly didn't move an inch.  I don't see any of this in sport sparring, perhaps because it's a fast results environment.


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## miguksaram (Nov 18, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you cant do them both WELL
> 
> they are dimetricly opposed to each other, they both teach habits that DO NOT WORK on the other side.
> 
> you CAN do both, but i have YET to see someone that could do both WELL.


Two questions.  First and foremost how many people do you know that are elite TKD fighters?  

By that definition you can not do two things well can you say say you do good TKD and good Kempo?


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## bluekey88 (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Erik, I believe there's actually less overlap than you state from my perspective. For example, I focus a lot of my time teaching stances: purpose, how they fit within the concept of body structure, how they relate to movement, etc. The usual classical stuff you see in any 'old' system that over time teaches you how to avoid blows even when you seemingly didn't move an inch. I don't see any of this in sport sparring, perhaps because it's a fast results environment.


 
I disagree with your disagreement   I didn't start out in TKD...actually, Aikido is my true base art...morte traditional you aren't going to get.    The kinds of things you are talking about as far as using stances and footwork, bodystructure and the like are essential skillsets  in sport TKD.  In fact, most of the drillign we do is not sparring...it's footwork, movement, avoiding blows without excessive movemnt (jumping back three fett to avoid a kick means you can't counter).  

My experience over the last 20 years or so tells me the ovelap is there.  In fact, the kids on our comp team are also the same kids that do really well in the traditional stuff.  They take directino exceptionally well and are able to wrap their brains around such things as body position to break balance, taking the oppinent's space and the like.  

True, time is finite...but alot can be accomplished with the right kind of focus.  I don't think particiption...or even focusing on sprt for a time, as abad thing...it's not for everyone, but it certainly isn't the death nell for tkd.

Peace,
Erik


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> I disagree with your disagreement   I didn't start out in TKD...actually, Aikido is my true base art...morte traditional you aren't going to get.    The kinds of things you are talking about as far as using stances and footwork, bodystructure and the like are essential skillsets  in sport TKD.  In fact, most of the drillign we do is not sparring...it's footwork, movement, avoiding blows without excessive movemnt (jumping back three fett to avoid a kick means you can't counter).



Good to hear from another aikidoist.  Do you still practice?  I am a deshi under my wife.  

As for the commonality within sport TKD and aikido... Well, I respectfully disagree again.  Sport TKDists common violate the majority of the rules for creating stability in an effort to create speed and sudden attacks/counters.  

I fully expect that you would work a lot of movement patterns in sport TKD.  It however is not at all what I am thinking of when I referred to stance work in my post above.  What I see is a lot of sliding and lunging both for attack and defense.  



> My experience over the last 20 years or so tells me the ovelap is there.  In fact, the kids on our comp team are also the same kids that do really well in the traditional stuff.  They take directino exceptionally well and are able to wrap their brains around such things as body position to break balance, taking the oppinent's space and the like.



The qualities of athleticism and good studentship are valuable anywhere.  This is the link to success IMO, it's not necessarily because there is true overlap in material.



> True, time is finite...but alot can be accomplished with the right kind of focus.  I don't think particiption...or even focusing on sprt for a time, as abad thing...it's not for everyone, but it certainly isn't the death nell for tkd.



Indeed, people can do anything they want with their spare time.  I've explained my complaint above already....


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## bluekey88 (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Good to hear from another aikidoist. Do you still practice? I am a deshi under my wife.


 
Not for some time.  I currently do Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which has a certain aiki falvor to it....in addition to TKD.

As for the commonalities...you are seeing differences in the application of principles.  BUT the principles are similar, if not the same.  I want to attack when my opponenet is off balance.  I want to control the sapce he needs to attack, thus limiting his options.  However, because of the ruiles, I can't grab, trip or throw.  However, I can use position, footwork, feints, lunges, etc. to implement these principles.  Once you understand the principles, it's just a matter of learning how to use thwm within the contraints of the situation.  I might lunge in with a flurry of kicks...I might do this after slipping my opponents attack before he can recover.  The flurry serves to keep this person off balance and on their heels, and moving backwards towards the edge of the ring where I can then knock them out of the ring with a well placed power kick...thus scoring for the kick and posisbly on them going out of bounds.  it's a bit of gamesmanship, but I took their balance, the initiative, the control over their options and capitalized.  

I've been of the belief that at the highest levels, the differences between many martial arts are not as great as they appear....many paths leading ot the same destination as it were.  

So, there may be less overlap in material...but a lot of overlap in principle, and to me, the principles are more important than the matyerials ultimately.

Peace,
Erik



Indeed, people can do anything they want with their spare time. I've explained my complaint above already....[/quote]


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

> So, there may be less overlap in material...but a lot of overlap in principle,



I can agree with that.  Pax.


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> ...my contention is with those who don't give traditional martial arts enough respect. It seems to be assumed that if you're good at the sport, you'll also be good at the other side, too.


I see this more in reverse than I do as you are putting it. Many more seem to disrespect the sport believing that the traditionalist can be more effective at the sport than someone that trains for the sport.


dancingalone said:


> I argue that there are entire skill sets within the traditional base that are not practiced at all within the sporting context...


Yes this is true if taken only in the context of training for the sport alone. But many train both. Yes more time may be given to the sport at a younger age but that may only last for a few years for most. Eventually even the best the sport has to offer comes back to the tradition once his time is up for top level sport. Or they just quit altogether.

Everyone of our sport competitors work on stances, forms, SD, joint locks, breaking, and every other aspect of the so call traditional art. Maybe not to the extent that you do now, but enough as to keep them aware of the art to the point that in a few year that is what they will focus on more.

It is not a sport all now, then bam sport is over now so now focus on art. There is a progression. As the sport career ramps up more and more focus is given to it. And maybe less and less is given to the art. But as the sport career peaks then declines, less and less focus is given to the sport and more and more is given to the art.

So if I were to plot someone&#8217;s time on each as a line graph with two lines on the same chart you would see a simple bell curve for each. The lines on the curve would start and rise for some time equally with sport ramping above the art line at some point. After some time the sport line would start to fall and the art line would then over take the sport line.

Just how I see it.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> I see this more in reverse than I do as you are putting it. Many more seem to disrespect the sport believing that the traditionalist can be more effective at the sport than someone that trains for the sport.



I haven't noticed that at all.  What I see is one outspoken person who consistently says sport TKD training is ineffective for self-defense, frequently in a brash manner so perhaps you are amplifying his contributions.  Meanwhile, look on this thread in contrast for a showcase of my complaint.  At least 3 have chimed in that they do both sport and traditional MA, you being one.



> Yes this is true if taken only in the context of training for the sport alone. But many train both. Yes more time may be given to the sport at a younger age but that may only last for a few years for most. Eventually even the best the sport has to offer comes back to the tradition once his time is up for top level sport. Or they just quit altogether.
> 
> Everyone of our sport competitors work on stances, forms, SD, joint locks, breaking, and every other aspect of the so call traditional art. Maybe not to the extent that you do now, but enough as to keep them aware of the art to the point that in a few year that is what they will focus on more.



At this point, it's probably all about opinion.  I simply do not believe there's substantial depth or comprehensiveness in the traditional curriculum of sport schools.  It's evident from the discussions here that certain fundamental instruction into the hows and whys are simply omitted in favor of a smorgasbord basket of techniques that are taught in isolation from sparring and from forms.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> I see this more in reverse than I do as you are putting it. Many more seem to disrespect the sport believing that the traditionalist can be more effective at the sport than someone that trains for the sport.


I have not seen this, and as hot (and seemingly unquenchable) this topic is, I think that I would have by now if it were a common contention.

Generally, the arguement goes that the traditionalist can be more effective in self defense than someone who just trains for sport.

The other arguement that I have seen is that someone who just trains for sport is not really doing taekwondo.

Daniel


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I haven't noticed that at all. What I see is one outspoken person who consistently says sport TKD training is ineffective for self-defense, frequently in a brash manner so perhaps you are amplifying his contributions. Meanwhile, look on this thread in contrast for a showcase of my complaint. At least 3 have chimed in that they do both sport and traditional MA, you being one.


Maybe in the thread for this area.




dancingalone said:


> At this point, it's probably all about opinion. I simply do not believe there's substantial depth or comprehensiveness in the traditional curriculum of sport schools. It's evident from the discussions here that certain fundamental instruction into the hows and whys are simply omitted in favor of a smorgasbord basket of techniques that are taught in isolation from sparring and from forms.


You are basing this off of only a few people. Many don't want to know the why, what&#8217;s, and how&#8217;s. I see it every day in our dojang. Our Sabunim will talk and give all the info needed on the application and principles of techniques and concepts, but most don't even pay attention. They only want to be doing the physical.

I have walked up to many students and asked them to perform a simple task, then when done incorrectly, corrected them. After the correction I asked why is it done this way only to have blank stares. I know the answer and not because I looked it up or got it somewhere else, it was told to us in class, many times. But I pay attention and want to know why. But most don't.

You seem to be one that also wants the knowledge and that is great. Our Sabunim is always telling us black belts, without the knowledge you have nothing. But sadly many don't care.


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I have not seen this, and as hot (and seemingly unquenchable) this topic is, I think that I would have by now if it were a common contention.
> 
> Generally, the arguement goes that the traditionalist can be more effective in self defense than someone who just trains for sport.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you just said. And it says to me that most traditionalist disrespect the sport rather than the sport practitioners disrespecting the art.

It may be just my perception and or interpretation but if someone that does not do the sport but only the art for SD, then look at the sport and believe that what they see will not work or can't be applied in an SD situation, and they don't believe that there is any power with any technique or they don't know how to block or protect them selfs from attack, then they must also believe that they can take what they do into the sport ring and make it work. Again this is the conclusion I come to.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> Maybe in the thread for this area.


Pull up a thread for me where someone has said a traditionalist can execute sport TKD better than people who train sport TKD.




> You are basing this off of only a few people. Many don't want to know the why, whats, and hows.




Actually, I'm basing it on reality.  If you practice 2-4 hours a day on just WTF rules fighting, when do you find the time to work the applications contained in the forms in live, _randori_ fashion?  When do you find the time to repeat each move a hundred times on each side from a circular blow, from a straight blow, from a charging attack, from a 3/4 pace attack from the back?  It's easy to say you can do both without necessarily knowing what goes into making the forms live and breath for you.  Everyone says they work applications, but what do they really mean by that?

All of my drills build upon each other by design.  Basics flow into kata flows into isolation practice into live randori or kumite.  I respect what the word traditional means.   At the same time, I know the sporting world is a completely different domain, equally hard in certain aspects.  I respect what it takes to do well in that world.  

It's tough to serve 2 masters.  I'll leave it at that in this post.


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## dortiz (Nov 18, 2009)

"then they must also believe that they can take what they do into the sport ring and make it work"

I have never heard this. I have always said the opposite. 

My point is they are different.

Dave O.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> It may be just my perception and or interpretation but if someone that does not do the sport but only the art for SD, then look at the sport and believe that what they see will not work or can't be applied in an SD situation, and they don't believe that there is any power with any technique or they don't know how to block or protect them selfs from attack, then they must also believe that they can take what they do into the sport ring and make it work. Again this is the conclusion I come to.



That's a rather large leap of conclusion to make.  How could any traditionalist say they would do well in sport competition when 90% of their techniques and tactics are forbidden?

One of the truisms I am fond of repeating is "You get good at what you practice."  You want to be good at sport sparring, practice sport sparring.  You want to be good at something else, practice something else.

I don't think you'll find that thread...


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Pull up a thread for me where someone has said a traditionalist can execute sport TKD better than people who train sport TKD.


Not ignoring this but will take a minute so I want to respond to your following comment first. 



dancingalone said:


> Actually, I'm basing it on reality. If you practice 2-4 hours a day on just WTF rules fighting, when do you find the time to work the applications contained in the forms in live, _randori_ fashion? When do you find the time to repeat each move a hundred times on each side from a circular blow, from a straight blow, from a charging attack, from a 3/4 pace attack from the back? It's easy to say you can do both without necessarily knowing what goes into making the forms live and breath for you. Everyone says they work applications, but what do they really mean by that?
> 
> All of my drills build upon each other by design. Basics flow into kata flows into isolation practice into live randori or kumite. I respect what the word traditional means. At the same time, I know the sporting world is a completely different domain, equally hard in certain aspects. I respect what it takes to do well in that world.
> 
> It's tough to serve 2 masters. I'll leave it at that in this post.


I can only give examples of the people in my dojang or my kids.

My kids get home from school at 2:30 every day.
·    From 2:30 until 5:00 they do their homework, eat, nap or whatever they have time for. 
·    From 5:30 until 6:30 they take class. In this class they do whatever the art teaches them. 
·    From 6:30 until 8:00 they train for WTF competitions. This is not just sparring constantly but mostly doing drill after drill and drill. They may take 10 minutes at the end to move around a bit but only shadow spar or light contact. 
·    At 8:00 we (Me included) have Black Belt class. This is a class for only BB. In this class is where we do all of what you talk about. This class has no end time but usually ends between 9:30 and 10:00. 
·    Even when the class is over we (me and my kids) don't leave for another 30 to 60 minutes, depending on what the kids have to do the next day. 
·    Saturday is only a single class and that is poomsae class from 8:00 until 10:00. Even though they may do poomsae in their 5:30 class, Saturday is a day to really work the stances and the forms only.
Yes, my kids spend 5 - 6 hours a day in the dojang. During the summer it is more as they go in to the dojang at 2:00 every day and don't leave until 11:00 at night. If there is an upcoming tournament not during the Summer time then a few month before the tournament they will start their day at the dojang at 4:00 instead of 5:30. 

During really hard sport training days they may skip the 5:30 class but that will be it. Also after a major tournament they will also have down time from the sport training as well.

It is all up to your level of dedication, but there is more than enough time. Because my kids each started at the age 4 they only know the dojang and think that what they do is normal. To them it is just what the day consists of.

Oh we also get up every Sunday at 6:00AM and run 6 miles in the hills.

I have the luxury of only working until 2:00 myself every day. So I get home from work before my kids get home from school.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

Hey, ATC, never let it be said that I don't think your kids work hard.  They clearly do and you're rightfully proud of them.  Our differences in opinion are on a macro-level.


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

dortiz said:


> "then they must also believe that they can take what they do into the sport ring and make it work"
> 
> I have never heard this. I have always said the opposite.
> 
> ...


Correct, they are different and most sport people know this. But most traditionlist seem to lump the sport in with the art or only see the sport as what you call your art. Most sport people attempt to practice both to some degree. Thus this debate of can you do both? I say yes.


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Hey, ATC, never let it be said that I don't think your kids work hard. They clearly do and you're rightfully proud of them. Our differences in opinion are on a macro-level.


I do get what you are saying and agree that if one dedicates himself to one vs. the other they will be better at the one then someone that is trying to split the two.

But I still believe that if dedicated enough you can archive a 100/80% proficiency in one vs. the other. Will you ever be 100/100? Maybe not, but at some point if you are 100% sport / 80% art, it will become down the road when the sport side is no longer an option only 100% art. And you will still be fairly young for most when that day comes.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> But I still believe that if dedicated enough you can archive a 100/80% proficiency in one vs. the other. Will you ever be 100/100? Maybe not, but at some point if you are 100% sport / 80% art, it will become down the road when the sport side is no longer an option only 100% art. And you will still be fairly young for most when that day comes.



At what age and years of practice do you achieve a 100/80 split?  

If you told me someone could achieve 80%/10% competency in sport/traditional after 5+ years of hard practice (averaging 30+ hours per week training), I might be inclined to go along with you.

100/80 in the same time frame?  No way, no how.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> I agree with everything you just said. And it says to me that most traditionalist disrespect the sport rather than the sport practitioners disrespecting the art.



I think that it goes both ways, depending on the week.  The core of the problem may be more that some of those who practice the traditional art see the emphasis on sport as damaging to the art, mainly because it causes non sportive elements to fall into disuse.




ATC said:


> It may be just my perception and or interpretation but if someone that does not do the sport but only the art for SD, then look at the sport and believe that what they see will not work or can't be applied in an SD situation, and they don't believe that there is any power with any technique or they don't know how to block or protect them selfs from attack, then they must also believe that they can take what they do into the sport ring and make it work. Again this is the conclusion I come to.


You do not have to do the sport to determine that some of what is part of the sport does not translate to good SD.

The other side of the coin that you mention is that many sport practitioners seem to feel that the sport technique does translate into effective SD, which in reality, it does not.

Also, very few here argue that the techniques in sport do not have power.  They do argue that athletes will overextend themselve or actually fall in the process of trying to score with a hit, which will at least diminish the power in those circumstances.

As for the idea that sport taekwondoist do not know how to block, this not an arguement that I see made for the most part.  Usually the arguement is that they know how to block, but that sport training trains out the reflex to do so.

Daniel


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> At what age and years of practice do you achieve a 100/80 split?
> 
> If you told me someone could achieve 80%/10% competency in sport/traditional after 5+ years of hard practice (averaging 30+ hours per week training), I might be inclined to go along with you.
> 
> 100/80 in the same time frame? No way, no how.



I think I see the issue here. First off you cannot weight both the art and the sport the same. The art has a greater weight by far. There is just more to it than the sport.

When I talk about the training in the sport, I am talking repetitive drills and conditioning. Only time is needed and there are by no means the same number of techniques being performed as the art. Your training for the sport is set and pretty much a routine where you are simply trying to get fast and more accurate with a few techniques. So to reach 100% with the sport can be achieved in a short time compared to the entire art.

With the art you may never reach a true 100% number so my previous example is indeed off. I should have said that a person studying the art only for 5 years may reach 10% competency. But the person doing both the art and the sport may be more of a 5/100% split.

I see your point. But still think there is room to learn both well. Because the sport is such a short journey compared to the art, There is really not that much time lost dedicated to the entire art.


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## dortiz (Nov 18, 2009)

My last pitch...really.

What I am saying is that the strikes, the way you move attack etc and the intention are different. If the Old style person tries sport they will suck. Why, because they train to take X shot in exchange to get Y shot in and win the fight.
The sport guy will in the same token lose the fight because their reaction will also be what they trained, a quick shot that wins the point possibly off balancing and possibly with arms down. Would have won a point but lost a fight.
Dont believe me thats fine. But many experts say you will react the way you train. Even better dont believe me but if you want to tell your sports folks they can fight start making them do drills with light contact but focusing on fight vs point. prove me wrong and I will feel better anyway.
I dont think the best fighter in the world will win in a sports ring with rules and I dont think a sports guy will react any differently than trained in a fight.

Either of the two can of course later focus and change their training and either have a lot of core skills that yes are the same and add a lot of value. But what you train is what you will do.



Dave O.


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

dortiz said:


> ...Even better dont believe me but if you want to tell your sports folks they can fight start making them do drills with light contact but focusing on fight vs point. prove me wrong and I will feel better anyway.
> I dont think the best fighter in the world will win in a sports ring with rules and I dont think a sports guy will react any differently than trained in a fight.
> 
> Again, I hope I am wrong.
> ...


We do this in our regular classes and for the most part our guys that compete are just so much faster and better readers that the ones that don't compete can't touch them. Now these are our top competitors. I do see our casual competitors get hit by noobs.


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## d1jinx (Nov 18, 2009)

ALL please forgive my ignorance.:asian:


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

Knock it off, man.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> Thank you for clarifying something I already knew. The term Olympic style has become a "_slang_" amungst martial artist that has been used more than once in this thread when referring to WORLD TAEKWONDO FEDERATION (otherwise known as the WTF and not What The ****..) style of fighting or sparring or gyurogi or kumite or any other name you may use for competition.
> I wasnt aware I must watch my P's and Q's when addressing such a highly knowledgable audience.
> 
> ALL please forgive my ignorance.:asian:


You take yourself way too seriously. No need to shout at everyone or cry the blues. 

Congratulations on making the first outright rude post in this thread.

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Nov 18, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> ALL please forgive my ignorance.:asian:


 

better?


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## ATC (Nov 18, 2009)

Well to keep this thread on track. Dancing...did my recent response to you clarify things any? I know I finally understood what you were saying.


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## dancingalone (Nov 18, 2009)

ATC said:


> Well to keep this thread on track. Dancing...did my recent response to you clarify things any? I know I finally understood what you were saying.



It sure did.  Thank you.   In turn, I think I now understand more fully what you meant by doing both.  The phrase doesn't mean you have equal levels of proficiency in both, nor does it mean that they are equivalent in volume or depth of content.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 18, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> By that definition you can not do two things well can you say say you do good TKD and good Kempo?




depends on who I am hanging out with. I am either a TKD guy with good hands or a Kenpo guy who can kick

those two arts do not contradict each other the way SD TKD and Sport TKD do.


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## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> depends on who I am hanging out with. I am either a TKD guy with good hands or a Kenpo guy who can kick
> 
> those two arts do not contradict each other the way SD TKD and Sport TKD do.


See I guess I was brought up differently.  Sport is part of TKD just like SD is part of TKD.  One can be good at both.  It is just a simple case of correct training.  In our school we have a good amount of competitors who are national and world champions.  They are also very good at their SD and traditional training.  This because we teach balance of both.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 19, 2009)

but the problem is, sport TKD teaches things that are in direct opposition to what SD TKD is.

therein lies the problem


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## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> but the problem is, sport TKD teaches things that are in direct opposition to what SD TKD is.
> 
> therein lies the problem




Maybe it would be useful to make a list of these points so there could be be some rational discussion?  I'm eager to get beyond the usual bickering on this topic and think a level, measured exchange would be useful.

Want to come up with a list of 'charges'?  I have my own thoughts, but it seems that I have already spoken greatly on this thread.  Would be nice to see someone else come up with something.

ATC or whomever else don't be shy either.  What are the usual memes you hear about sport TKD that you would like to respond to?


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## dortiz (Nov 19, 2009)

"See I guess I was brought up differently. Sport is part of TKD just like SD is part of TKD. "

The thing here is that the sport side has evolved. To say by leaps and bounds is being mild. Watching the stances and techniques of the 70s in to 80s versus now is amazing.
Therefore what used to be the Fight aspect controlled and protected has involved in to a greater sport. 
So yes, you were brought up differently.

"just like SD is part of TKD" 
Here lies the issue. You see TKD was self defense. Breaking it in to sport and this new trend of adding modules and calling that part self defense is what has changed. TKD can be self defense in its entirety. 

I wonder if you go to a Okinawa Gojo Ryu school if they do self defense on Tuesdays?

Dave O.


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## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> See I guess I was brought up differently.  Sport is part of TKD just like SD is part of TKD.  One can be good at both.  It is just a simple case of correct training.  In our school we have a good amount of competitors who are national and world champions.  They are also very good at their SD and traditional training.  This because we teach balance of both.




There's been a huge evolution is sport taekwondo from when many of us  started.  You seem to be a younger man, miguksaram.  Take a look at these to see the perspective that many of have.  In the former video, the sport application looks a lot closer to 'traditional' martial arts to me.

[yt]YJMDb8mjEBA[/yt]

[yt]YXJBn9dNCuo[/yt]


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## TKD'oh (Nov 19, 2009)

Look how low Joe Lewis' hands were in that clip.  I'm assuming they weren't throwing hands to the face?


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## dortiz (Nov 19, 2009)

He he he  I just got side kicked with no pads. Shake it off son.

A lot has changed.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2009)

dortiz said:


> "See I guess I was brought up differently. Sport is part of TKD just like SD is part of TKD. "
> 
> The thing here is that the sport side has evolved. To say by leaps and bounds is being mild. Watching the stances and techniques of the 70s in to 80s versus now is amazing.
> Therefore what used to be the Fight aspect controlled and protected has involved in to a greater sport.
> ...


I think that this really gets to the heart of the matter. When I spar under WTF rules, I fight as the 'fight aspect controlled' and needless to say, I do not score like I would if I treated it as a sport. I do okay; my defense if very solid, but generally, I tend towards a more classical stance and strategy.  My sparring stance looks more like David Moons than Steven Lopez.

The modern sport under the WTF rule set has evolved to such a degree that it is relatively divorced from the rest of the art.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Nov 19, 2009)

"
The modern sport under the WTF rule set has evolved to such a degree that it is relatively divorced from the rest of the art.

Daniel "

That was exactly what I have done a bad job of trying to say.

Dave O.


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## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2009)

TKD'oh said:


> Look how low Joe Lewis' hands were in that clip.  I'm assuming they weren't throwing hands to the face?



No, I recall plenty of backfists and reverse punches to the face (most of the time, you would pull the strike - they would still be called if executed crisply).  Lewis would usually slip punches to the head just by turning his body.  I guess he was more concerned about guarding his body from kicks, given his particular opponent in this video.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2009)

dortiz said:


> "Look how low Joe Lewis' hands were in that clip. I'm assuming they weren't throwing hands to the face? "
> 
> Really? Please talk to your teacher. Having both arms swing by your side for you kick balance is differnt than a low front guard with back hand covering the other half. His hand are ready and covering as you watch him move.
> Look at 1:01
> ...


Another good observation!

Low guard with blocking and dodging vs. no guard and just dodging is a fundemental difference between what I grew up (video one) with and what is done now (video two). 

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> but the problem is, sport TKD teaches things that are in direct opposition to what SD TKD is.
> 
> therein lies the problem


But taught correctly the practitioner would apply them in the correct setting.  What exactly are the opposite traits being taught?


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## TKD'oh (Nov 19, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> No, I recall plenty of backfists and reverse punches to the face (most of the time, you would pull the strike - they would still be called if executed crisply). Lewis would usually slip punches to the head just by turning his body. I guess he was more concerned about guarding his body from kicks, given his particular opponent in this video.


 
That makes a lot of sense.  Thinking back to when I practiced point sparring as a kid, I guess I do remember some guys with a similar stance.  My preference was to carry my front hand a little higher for quicker jabs to the face.


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## dortiz (Nov 19, 2009)

TKD'oh
please accept my apology for sounding way to snippy. I deleted it but see it was quoted. I think my point was right but my answer was too caffinated : o

Dave O.


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## TKD'oh (Nov 19, 2009)

dortiz said:


> TKD'oh
> please accept my apology for sounding way to snippy. I deleted it but see it was quoted. I think my point was right but my answer was too caffinated : o
> 
> Dave O.


 
No problem. I noticed it in the quote, but figured that there was a reason you deleted it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> But taught correctly the practitioner would apply them in the correct setting. What exactly are the opposite traits being taught?


Probably depends on where you train, but much of the high level WTF matches that I have seen all maintain a hands at sides position and do not seem to block... ever. They dodge, which is good, but artificially so; they know where the attacks are coming from and where they are going. No punches above the torso and they are not scored anyway, so punching defense is often nil. All of the kicks will be mid to high.

Then there is the hugging, the scoring while falling down, and a lot of what reminds of the contortions seen in a match between olympic foilists. 

Are these guys and gals athletic? Darned right they are! But does what they do have anything to do with Taekwondo outside of a common organization and some kicks? No.

Does that make it inherently bad?  No.

Does that mean that they cannot defend themselves? Some probably can, some probably cannot.

Daniel


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## ATC (Nov 19, 2009)

Well I remember watching Joe Lewis in the kick boxing ring and he stood and fought a lot different than he did in the point sparing ring. Plus he was/is one great teacher and can only assume that his SD is solid as well. He was a soldier after all.

This proves to me that you can do both and do both well. Everyone gets caught up in the hands down and bad habits thing. Your brain is capable of understanding situations and performing as you want depending on the situation. If you only train for one vs. the other then yes your brain only knows what it knows and will do what it trains for. But if you training is well rounded and you just happen to train for both your brain will build connections for both and be able to switch between the both.

It is like a translator that speaks both languages well. They have the ability to switch between both in an instant, they trained to do that.

Another example is football and baseball. If you never threw a football your first, second and many after that throws are not so good. But after some time you will be able to use the correct mechanics to throw a football the way a football needs to be thrown. However just because you now know how to throw a football you don't forget how to throw a baseball and can switch between the two quite easy.

Another thing that I hear is that sport or WTF TKD teaches this bad habit of keeping your hands down. This is not true. You need to keep you hands down because 90% of the strikes are to the trunk and they all originate from the leg using the feet which are on the ground. You need to protect the closest point for the feet hitting, which is your trunk. As opposed to a punch to the face that originates from the arms using the hands. You need your hands to be up at this point due to the closest striking point being the face or head.

Think about it, the foot has to travel from the ground to the head. The furthest point possible. The fist has to travel from about chest high to the head, or about 8 inches. If you are in a match that only kicks to the head are allowed (no punching to the head) then you need to keep your hands at the best possible point to attempt to protect all of you body. This includes your back.

Once the brain knows that you can be punched in the face then the hand will naturally come up. No one drops their hands on pourpose when they need to keep them up for a punch. Exhaustion does this or fatigue not the habit. The best boxers start to drop their hands when tired. That is why you have KO's in boxing as well. Not from not wanting to keep their hands up but from not being able to, because they are tired.

Well in TKD you see KO's as well but not from not wanting to keep or put the hands up, but because they really can't keep or put the hands up because they would always lose and still get KO'd after some time as the hands went down anyways.

I have seen many KO's with hands up. Why? Because once you get beat in the body enough (it hurts) and you see a kick coming to the body you will drop to protect it. That&#8217;s when you will get faked to the body and straight to the head. Boxer do it to, they beat the body to drop the hands.

Again if you don't do both or even the just the sport you won't understand or know. You have to do it to know. All this arguments on either side is really moot until you experience it.


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## dortiz (Nov 19, 2009)

"Again if you don't do both or even the just the sport you won't understand or know. You have to do it to know. All this arguments on either side is really moot until you experience it. "

I have always studied Kukkiwon TKD and been WTF. I am talking about personal experience and interactions with those around me.
Again I personally changed my habits by dropping back to what I call my core art and I was lucky to be old enough that this aspect was new to me. My comments are personal and from what I see.
I will also say that I took my TKD and put it against other fighters to learn and adept as well. I felt what hard blows coming in were and took the years of bruising in hard training to learn the difference. I bet a few others have as well.
I still also stand by the fact and advocate what sport brings to the player, families and society. Its what I believe to be the misconception of the modern sport school claiming to teach the old fighting art, that I battle.

Dave O.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> Another thing that I hear is that sport or WTF TKD teaches this bad habit of keeping your hands down. This is not true..


The above is contradicted by the following in your own post.




ATC said:


> You need to keep you hands down because 90% of the strikes are to the trunk and they originate from the leg using the feet which are on the ground. You need to protect the closest point for the feet which is your trunk. As opposed to a punch to the face that originates from the arms using the hand. You need your hand to be up at this point due to the closest striking point being the face or head.


Thus it *is *taught in WTF taekwondo, and it is practiced by those who wish to be competitive, and you have very well enumerated the reasons as to why.




ATC said:


> Think about it, the foot has to travel from the ground to the head. The furthest point possible. The fist has to travel from about chest high to the head, or about 8 inches. If you are in a match that only kicks to the head are allowed then you need to keep your hands at the best possible point to attempt to protect all of you body. This includes your back.


Absolutely.  The hands at sides stance is effective and the athletes have developed a highly specialized way of training in order to be competative in this event.




ATC said:


> Once the brain knows that you can be punched in the face then the hand will naturally come up.


Yes, but will they come up in time? Hands move a lot faster than feet, and if your reflexes and such are trained in to deal with feet, then this may (though not automatically) affect your ability to suddenly bring up your guard. This the issue with trained in habbits that others keep mentioning.




ATC said:


> No one drops their hands on purpose when they need to keep them up for a punch.


No, but dropping them from a guarded stance is not the issue in contention; it is that the guard is never raised in the first place in WTF sport.



ATC said:


> Exhaustion does this or fatigue not the habit. The best boxers start to drop their hands when tired. That is why you have KO's in box as well. Not from not wanting to keep their hands up but from not being able to because they are tired.


Nothing to contest here, excepting that violent encounters do not generally go multiple rounds into exhaustion, so outside of the ring, this is not really a consideration. If a violent encounter is allowed to go more than a matter of a few seconds, chances are the bad guys buddies have stepped in and it is too late (or bystanders have come to your aid, in which case you are extremely lucky) or the bad guy has found his knife.

One of the problems with these comparisons is that the dynamic of a violent encounter is so different from that of an athletic contest.

Daniel


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## ATC (Nov 19, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The above is contradicted by the following in your own post.
> 
> Thus it *is *taught in WTF taekwondo, and it is practiced by those who wish to be competitive, and you have very well enumerated the reasons as to why.


We don't teach it rather you figure this out on your own and adjust to what is needed. Everyone that starts off beleive it or not has the hands up in the beginning. After some time they realize that the hands need to be down. I don't think I have ever told any student to drop their hands. 



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but will they come up in time? Hands move a lot faster than feet, and if your reflexes and such are trained in to deal with feet, then this may (though not automatically) affect your ability to suddenly bring up your guard. This the issue with trained in habbits that others keep mentioning.


You are assumeing that the hands are not already up when fighting not WTF. When I say the hands come up. I mean that they come up (start up) in regards to being up vs. down for the type of fighting you are doing. So they come up means they start up. Not that they start down and then try to bring them up in the course of the fight.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> We don't teach it rather you figure this out on your own and adjust to what is needed. Everyone that starts off beleive it or not has the hands up in the beginning. After some time they realize that the hands need to be down. I don't think I have ever told any student to drop their hands.


That is exactly what I meant, though you phrased it better.  When others here say that "the sport" teaches you to do this, that is what is meant.  I cannot say that I have actually seen anyone give this counsel.  But watching and observing and of course through trial and error, you are taught to use certain strategies. 



ATC said:


> are assumeing that the hands are not already up when fighting not WTF. When I say the hands come up. I mean that they come up (start up) in regards to being up vs. down for the type of fighting you are doing. So they come up means they start up. Not that they start down and then try to bring them up in the course of the fight.


Thank you for clarifying.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (Nov 19, 2009)

ATC said:


> Well I remember watching Joe Lewis in the kick boxing ring .......This proves to me that you can do both and do both well.





that is some SERIOUS reaching

whatever, do what you like

I will keep doing mine


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## ATC (Nov 19, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> that is some SERIOUS reaching
> 
> whatever, do what you like
> 
> I will keep doing mine


Why is this a reach? I also mentioned that I assume his SD is also good as he was a soldier. He also did learn his art overseas as well and not in the states.


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## Marginal (Nov 20, 2009)

ATC said:


> You are assumeing that the hands are not already up when fighting not WTF. When I say the hands come up. I mean that they come up (start up) in regards to being up vs. down for the type of fighting you are doing. So they come up means they start up. Not that they start down and then try to bring them up in the course of the fight.


You're making a universal statement that doesn't really hold up in practice. Some will adjust, not all. On top of that, even if they do bring their hands up, they're usually not very good at using them properly in defense or offense. 

This shows up in a lot of the MMA fights featuring TKD practitioners for example.


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## ATC (Nov 20, 2009)

Marginal said:


> You're making a universal statement that doesn't really hold up in practice. Some will adjust, not all. On top of that, even if they do bring their hands up, they're usually not very good at using them properly in defense or offense.
> 
> This shows up in a lot of the MMA fights featuring TKD practitioners for example.


You are correct, as no situation will ever be all.


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## chungdokwan123 (Nov 20, 2009)

> What I don't get is the people who just HATE sport tkd.  Why hate?  Sure you can dislike...not want ot participate in...not understand..whatever...but HATE?  That's an awful strong word.  Life's too short to hate, and I don't see where the sportive aspect of the art is destroying anything.
> 
> Dodgy business practices, poor professional ethics, political infighting are more a danger to the art than the sport.  Those things are in every aspect of TKD and other martial arts, regardless of style or organization.  You want to hate?  Hate the unethical leaders who drag all of us through the mud and lay off the poor kids who just want to have fun doing something they enjoy.
> 
> ...


Well said, Sir.  

In everything I've ever read about what constitutes the pure martial art aspects of TKD.......there is included a philosophical aspect that seeks to embody in us positive characteristics........and HATE is not and cannot be one of them.  Therefore, to both sides of the debate, if HATE in any way forms the basis of your arguments, especially if you claim to be a participant in the "art", your points are moot from the first word.

In other words.......if you claim to be a pure TKD martial artist and you HATE sport TKD, then either you disregard or do not have grounding in the basis tenets of TKD........which by definition negates that claim.  If one participates solely in the sport, with no grounding in those same tenets.....then the song remains the same.

Would that be a fair assessment?


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## bluekey88 (Nov 20, 2009)

"You fight like you train..."

I've heard the anecdotes...the point-stop fighter who stopped his punch inches from his attacker because he never actually hit anyone before.  The guy who disarmed a knife wielding attacker, then gave him his knife back because that's what he always did in class.  Fascinating anecdotes.

However, why can't one train to be flexible and adaptable to situations?  Maybe I'm in the minority, but that's what I do.

The brain is a fascinating and marvelous organ.  Even the brain of the simplest person on the planet is a more powerful computational entity than the greatest super-computer.  Our brain takes in so much information and makes subconscious evaluations of that data so quickly that it is amazing.  furthermore, we can adapt how well our brain does this through learning and experience.

So, I train for sport.  I also train for self-defense.  I ALSO train for crisis intervention.  I've had More opportunities than I care to admit to function in all three of those scenarios and I've never gotten them confused.  Why is that?

Well, if the incoming information tells me that I'm in a combat situation, I usually drop my center, flex my knees and my adrenaline starts going.

Now, if the person standing across from me is wearing a hogu...I generally prepare to do a lot of kicking.  I maintain a low guard (not no gaurd....low gaurd...there's a difference...it's been spelled out adequately i other parts of this thread).  I prepare to keep my punching to the torso, and use it in a defensive manner to keep guys from jamming me as I know it won;t score (just hurt the other guy a lot  )

If the guy across from me is wearing a gi or dobok, no gofu....there's a Korean or Japanese flag somewhere in the room and the floor is padded....my brain sees that as a dojo/dojang practice situation.  My hands are in a higher guard.  I'm going anywhere from 50-75% power...I'm prepared to do and receive any kind of strike, grab, throw lock, etc.  I'm in class.  Never once have i gotten confused and Just kicked some guy in the head full force.

If I'm elsewhere (no padded floor) and the guy across from me is in street clothes....I'm in a fight.  Anything goes.  My intention becomes to end things quickly and get out of there with as little injury as possible.  I've never gotten confused and tried to kick a guy in the head or gone less than 100% in that situation.

If the person across from me I recognize as a client...and i see myself at work...then clearly I'm in a situation where I'm with a client in crisis.  Then my stance is non-threatening, I'm looking to talk a person down, and failing that to (with the help of co-workers) place the person in a position where they are no longer a danger to self or other.  i will not Punch or kick my client.  I will not do anything that places stress on joints or prevents breathing.  I don't want to harm my client.  I want to keep my job.  I've never injured a client with a kick to the head, or breaking or dislocating a joint due to excessive force.  never gotten confused...despite all the adrenaline and all my contradictory training.


Here's my point...a warrior trains for all situations, with an emphasis on those situations where he/she might find him/herself.  A good warrior is able to adapt to what is going on and use the proper tool for the job.  I've been doing it for years.

Maybe I'm a jack of all trades, master of none.  but to be honest...even if I just focused on one thing...I still wouldn't be a master.  I'm just looking fore ways to keep my training relevant, challenging and interesting.  Never gotten confused as to what I should be doing in the heat of the moment though.  I bet if I can do it...so can just about anybody else.

Peace,
Erik


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## ATC (Nov 20, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> "You fight like you train..."
> 
> I've heard the anecdotes...the point-stop fighter who stopped his punch inches from his attacker because he never actually hit anyone before. The guy who disarmed a knife wielding attacker, then gave him his knife back because that's what he always did in class. Fascinating anecdotes.
> 
> ...


You know that I am in the corner of thinking as well from a few of my other post in other threads. Most resonable to me.


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