# Wrestlers?



## Hand Sword (Jun 28, 2006)

Let me say this: I am a huge fan of the MMA's and UFC! That being said, I have to say That I sometimes have to switch the channel. The reason, that keeps occurring, are the "fighters" that have backgrounds in wrestling. They are great at getting takedowns, and keeping their opponents in a compromised position. However, they seem to be clueless about the grappling game. It turns into three rounds of pinning and holding down, and not much else. I find this completely frustrating. Believe me, I love a good grappling match, but the wrestlers are excruciating. 

Does anyone else feel this way? 
How about it? Wrestlers in MMA matches yes or no?


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## Andrew Green (Jun 29, 2006)

Saw some stats a little while ago that put wrestlers as the top winners in the UFC going back quite a ways.

Wrestling is probably the most important skill set in MMA.

But yes, the pure wrestlers are boring.  They often lack finishing power.  Of course, Couture & Liddell where both wrestlers, Hughes was a wrestler, lots of great fighters too watch are wrestlers, but they need something to end it.

I like the TUF bonus for ending the fight, would like to see that become standard.  Letting it go to a decission should = less money.  For the big cheques take some risks, try to end it, don't just lay and pray for a decission.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 29, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Saw some stats a little while ago that put wrestlers as the top winners in the UFC going back quite a ways.
> 
> Wrestling is probably the most important skill set in MMA.
> 
> ...


 
I would never put those fighters in the group that I was referring to. They are well rounded fighters that work at their game. My group, I find myself screaming at the tv "For the love of god---DO SOMETHING!!" They just hold and pin, occasionally throwing a sloppy strike. It's Brutal to watch for 15 minutes. Thank god the stand them back up rule is there. Even tonight, Rashad just sat in the guard-literally! Occasionally threw a strike, but, gee! Even Joe Rogan was screaming to do something! the other fights also, opponents giving the back and nothing just a hold on to them.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 29, 2006)

I know, it's frustrating and they got no place on live events...


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## Hand Sword (Jun 29, 2006)

Maybe the MMA organizations should have official training schools that the fighters should pass, or show some degree of ability in before allowing them to FIGHT.


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## MJS (Jun 29, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Let me say this: I am a huge fan of the MMA's and UFC! That being said, I have to say That I sometimes have to switch the channel. The reason, that keeps occurring, are the "fighters" that have backgrounds in wrestling. They are great at getting takedowns, and keeping their opponents in a compromised position. However, they seem to be clueless about the grappling game. It turns into three rounds of pinning and holding down, and not much else. I find this completely frustrating. Believe me, I love a good grappling match, but the wrestlers are excruciating.
> 
> Does anyone else feel this way?
> How about it? Wrestlers in MMA matches yes or no?


 
Yes, I hear what you're saying.  I too, enjoy watching the UFC.  In the beginning, I got the impression that many spectators enjoyed the stand up game much more than the ground game.  Often you'd hear the boos from the crowd.  Now, IMO, if they're on the ground, doing nothing more than holding, I can see where that would get frustrating.  Personally, I don't think holding someone down should count, unless you're working to get a submission.  Simply holding someone until the clock runs out, to me, doesnt seem like the person was trying too hard.

If we look at the first few UFC events, ones with Severn and Coleman, you'd see just that...great takedowns, but once there, they seemed lost.  Sure, they'd throw some strikes, but the subs. were few and far.  As time went on, there was obvious improvement.

Mike


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## Kreth (Jun 29, 2006)

My personal experience has been much the same. Pure wrestlers are great at getting position, but then things tend to stagnate. However, the ones that learned the ground game in addition to their grappling skills were pretty formidable.


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## Grenadier (Jun 29, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> If we look at the first few UFC events, ones with Severn and Coleman, you'd see just that...great takedowns, but once there, they seemed lost. Sure, they'd throw some strikes, but the subs. were few and far. As time went on, there was obvious improvement.
> 
> Mike


 

I think one of the most glaring example of that was Severn's fight with David "Tank" Abbott.  

Severn had Abbott in an advantageous position the whole match, but didn't have the striking skills to finish him off.  I remember Severn constantly raining down a hail of elbows down on Tank's head and back, and not even fazing him.  With someone of Severn's size and strength, you'd think he could be a better finisher.

At the end of the match, Severn was completely exhausted, although he did win, and Abbott was looking somewhat downcast, but also looked like he could easily go for another match.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 29, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> I think one of the most glaring example of that was Severn's fight with David "Tank" Abbott.
> 
> Severn had Abbott in an advantageous position the whole match, but didn't have the striking skills to finish him off. I remember Severn constantly raining down a hail of elbows down on Tank's head and back, and not even fazing him. With someone of Severn's size and strength, you'd think he could be a better finisher.
> 
> At the end of the match, Severn was completely exhausted, although he did win, and Abbott was looking somewhat downcast, but also looked like he could easily go for another match.


 
While I'd agree in THAT fight I wouldn't go as far as saying Severn lacks finishing abilty.  Only 16 wins out of 69 have gone the distance with him.  So he's finishing a little over 3 out of every 4 opponents.  Not bad given the rules in place IMHO.  Even more impressive considering his advanced age compared to the competition.  He was already 40 in the early UFC's circa 1994.  Who else fights a MUCH younger fighter a few days before their 52nd birthday and wins by submission? 

Dan Severn for President! OK not that far but you get my point.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=52


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## Grenadier (Jun 29, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> While I'd agree in THAT fight I wouldn't go as far as saying Severn lacks finishing abilty.


 
I don't necessarily disagree with you.  I can recall wincing as I watched him belly-to-back suplex some of the lighter guys, literally bouncing their heads and shoulders off the mat.  

Arguably, he could have won some of those matches that he lost, had his striking abilities been more polished.  With his size and strength, he could probably have beaten Royce Gracie (he dominated most of that match against Gracie), etc.  



> He was already 40 in the early UFC's circa 1994. Who else fights a MUCH younger fighter a few days before their 52nd birthday and wins by submission?


 
Well, actually closer to about 35 back then, but your point is still quite valid.  It's impressive what he did, despite his age, although it's safe to say that some people age more gracefully than others.  



> Dan Severn for President! OK not that far but you get my point.


 
He's a really good guy, and a nice person in real life as well, and if I had my choice of people to train with, to improve my grappling skills, he'd be up there at the top.


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## WilliamJ (Jul 3, 2006)

It's not all wrestlers, it's just wrestlers that the UFC has rushed onto the big stage before they are ready. Watch Pride if you are sick of boring guys like Koscheck and Rashad. The UFC rules, judging and the cage encourage guys who lay and pray.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 3, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> Well, actually closer to about 35 back then, but your point is still quite valid. It's impressive what he did, despite his age, although it's safe to say that some people age more gracefully than others.


 
If he's 52 in 2006 (birthdate 6/8/1954) how old was he 12 years ago in 1994?


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## matt.m (Jul 3, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Let me say this: I am a huge fan of the MMA's and UFC! That being said, I have to say That I sometimes have to switch the channel. The reason, that keeps occurring, are the "fighters" that have backgrounds in wrestling. They are great at getting takedowns, and keeping their opponents in a compromised position. However, they seem to be clueless about the grappling game. It turns into three rounds of pinning and holding down, and not much else. I find this completely frustrating. Believe me, I love a good grappling match, but the wrestlers are excruciating.
> 
> Does anyone else feel this way?
> How about it? Wrestlers in MMA matches yes or no?


 
I wrestled 148 while in the Marines.  I have gone to the Pan Am games.  I am sorry but there is nothing boring about wrestling.  To say that would say that Judo Randori is boring.  

I love to throw so I guess I don't see how wrestling can be boring.  I know this whole topic is just built on opinion.  I like watching a good scrap, however I think that MMA is the worst thing to happen to martial arts.  I watch the stuff, don't get me wrong.  The whole basis it seems to me that the UFC is based around is wrestling that allows puching, kicking and arm bars.   

I have heard others compare it to Judo Randori, it is not sorry.  I practiced judo for many years and the Tuff Enough and UFC programming just is not comparable to a judo randori.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 3, 2006)

I think the point is that a lot of wrestlers are borring as MMA fighters, not that wrestling is boring


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## Grenadier (Jul 3, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> If he's 52 in 2006 (birthdate 6/8/1954) how old was he 12 years ago in 1994?


 
You're right.  I thought he was born in 1959, but a check of his bio shows that I was incorrect. 

Regardless of his birthdate, though, we can all agree that what he accomplished was pretty darn impressive.


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