# Buying Dan rank over the Internet



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

Do you think buying martial arts dan rank over the Internet is a legitimate way to earn rank ?


----------



## Mon Mon (Feb 7, 2003)

Buying Rank is one thing but having the skill to live up to your rank is another


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mon Mon _
> *Buying Rank is one thing but having the skill to live up to your rank is another *




This is true.
However, I am interested in thoughts about buying rank over the Internet from someone you have never trained with.


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 7, 2003)

If I study art X, under Teacher A, then I earn what rank Teacher A grants me.  If Teacher A refuses to teach me any more, test me any more, then either I am a worthless slug unworthy of further advancement, or my teacher is a worthless slug unworthy of further tuition from me.

I have a few choices.  Find out if Teacher B of art X will take me as a student.  Or I can go study art Y.

But should I go to Teacher C who teaches art Z and ask him if he will certify/recognize/promote me to the next rank in art X, even though Teacher C has never studied it at all?

And if I do, what does that make me?  What does that make Teacher C?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> 
> And if I do, what does that make me?  What does that make Teacher C?
> *



It makes you a victim of people claiming to be martial artists when in actuality they are nothing more than dishonest Dan Salesmen that cheapen the MA thorugh their practices.


----------



## arnisador (Feb 7, 2003)

As you asked the question--"buying rank"--the answer is obvious.

What about video evaluation more generally?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *As you asked the question--"buying rank"--the answer is obvious.
> 
> What about video evaluation more generally? *



I dont recommend learning from video and wouldnt test someone that way either.
What would be on the testing video?
Kata only?
That's not much of a test.
I wouldnt know how many takes were needed to get the kata right.
What if I wanted to ask a question and wanted an answer right away and didnt want to give them the time to refer to their notes, the Internet or some book..


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 7, 2003)

If a person were already of high skill, then video exchange between that person and someone either their peer or senior could be a useful tool for training (i.e. correcting minor faults, etc.).

I don't believe, however, that actual *training* can be effectively achieved via video...  Too many little things will be completely missed without a live instructor there to point them out.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *If a person were already of high skill, then video exchange between that person and someone either their peer or senior could be a useful tool for training (i.e. correcting minor faults, etc.).
> 
> I don't believe, however, that actual training can be effectively achieved via video...  Too many little things will be completely missed without a live instructor there to point them out.
> ...



I agree.
IF the person has been exposed to the technique/kata in question then video is often a good referencenot a substitute.
However, learning correctly from video is impossible.who will correct you if you do something wrong? How will you know you are doing anything wrong?

Learning and training requires the guidance and patience of a qualified instructor to actually be there and help you.


----------



## Kirk (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *However, learning correctly from video is impossible*



There are organizations that have video correspondence.  You
have a video of the instruction per rank.  You film yourself doing
what you've been "taught" via the tape, and they send you back
corrections, on video.  Repeat until competency for that rank is
proven.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *There are organizations that have video correspondence.  You
> have a video of the instruction per rank.  You film yourself doing
> what you've been "taught" via the tape, and they send you back
> ...




I think it's more effective to have my teacher kicking my *** in person than via my Sony.
I get immediate "feedback" if you know what I mean. Plus my kicking *** is the shortest route to my brain.


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 7, 2003)

I disagree with "video teaching."  Again, the teacher isn't there to correct what is being learned.  Just not effective enough to warrant the effort of making videos, sending them in, waiting for them to be reviewed, getting the tape back, training again...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Feb 7, 2003)

I can relate to the immediate feedback part.  Some arts just require it.  Wing Chun for example seems to be very particular on exact positioning, which is hard to tell on a video tape (or book or web site for that matter).

I think its got a place as a learning tool, but not a testing tool.  As was said, its too easy to edit things so you only show the best.

I hold several computer certifications....the ones I value are the ones whose tests I took under strict guidelines.  The open book exams only tested me on if I could look stuff up.  Its not the same.
IMHO.

:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> 
> I hold several computer certifications....the ones I value are the ones whose tests I took under strict guidelines.  The open book exams only tested me on if I could look stuff up.  Its not the same.
> ...




God how I only wish I could take a CompTia, CCNA or MCSA exam using an open book!


----------



## Kirk (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I think it's more effective to have my teacher kicking my *** in person than via my Sony.
> I get immediate "feedback" if you know what I mean. *



That's how I'd prefer to learn as well.  But for those in majorly
rural settings, video correspondence learning is decent to have
available.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *That's how I'd prefer to learn as well.  But for those in majorly
> rural settings, video correspondence learning is decent to have
> available. *



My suggestion to those folks is move to a civilized part of the world


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *God how I only wish I could take a CompTia, CCNA or MCSA exam using an open book! *



Brainbench.com    supposed to be as hard...but in reality they are a joke.... I papered a wall with em once....LOL

I took the Win95 MCP before I took A+.   I did an NT4 MCP prep test open book....didn't help. heh.  

I'm working towards Adobe and Macromedia certs now....there is no place to really train in em locally, and the books/videos don't answer questions while they are on your mind.  Same thing in the arts.  I've watched some videos, got a ton of books, but without some immediate feedback you just don't know.

Try learning Iaido from a book....you can go thru the motions, but your angles and footwork will be off.  Last WC lesson I has (few years back) I was constantly being corrected on posture, positioning, etc.  

Medias a good reference, but to learn, you need a teacher. 
:asian:


----------



## Kirk (Feb 7, 2003)

The IKCA is one that a lot of internet friends have commented on what
a great video training course it is.  I can't attest to it, since I
haven't studied it, but I've met a lot that have.  

The CRAM books are excellent for cert information for testing.
But the MCSE is becoming pretty watered down, at least around
where I live.  So many 3 month test passing courses going on,
providing MCSE's that know nothing.  It sure decreases the value
of holding the cert.

And I agree .. brainbench is a joke.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 7, 2003)

I have always been one for "trial by fire" kind of training..........or like Nike says "Just Do It".

When I test my students I want to feel their technique myself and won't pass them unless it works on my.
Basically I am not going to send someone out in the world under the false illusion that his or her technique works unless it really does.
The only way I can ensure quality control is if they crank on me.
That is the main reason for testing them.......it's not about getting a new belt.


----------



## Kirk (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I have always been one for "trial by fire" kind of training..........or like Nike says "Just Do It".
> 
> When I test my students I want to feel their technique myself and won't pass them unless it works on my.
> ...



Definitely not about a new belt for myself.  There's been times
that I don't understand certain things, and the only way my 
instructor can explain it to me is if I really attack him in the manner
required by the technique.  Maybe others don't need that?  Some
learn by seeing, some by doing.  I personally can't  understand
learning it without feeling it, but maybe some can??


----------



## chufeng (Feb 8, 2003)

Yeah...dude...like I was watching this video of a guy thrashing on a skateboard...and I like knew all of the stuff involved...like the board had wheels and the trucks on the board allowed the wheels to turn and the springiness of the board like made it easy to bounce around and stuff...so, I says, I can do that...so I buy a board and immediately like fall on my ***...

then I thought maybe if someone were to show me HOW to do this, it would be better.

(just an example I borrowed from a friend)...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Feb 8, 2003)

Nah....I tried skateboarding...no matter who tried to help I still fell on my ***.... 

(This is back when they were the thinner versions, not the surf boards on wheels ya see today).heh.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 8, 2003)

I had a BAHNE skateboard when they first came out.........


----------



## jazkiljok (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I had a BAHNE skateboard when they first came out......... *



DOGTOWN?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *DOGTOWN? *




I had a "California Surfer" before that.........one of those soft flexy jobs that was made of Nylon and sagged in the middle.......yuck.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 8, 2003)

To get back on topic...............

Why do you think is it that some folks sell dan rank over the Internet?

Some people claim they do it to benefit those that have been denied rank for various reasons or so people that don't want to get invloved in the "politics".

I am wondering if these people's motivation is really that selfless or are these people really in it for the bucks........


It would seem to me that if someone is denied rank it is for a reason. Be it lack of skill, lack of time in grade, poor attitude, or any number of reasons. 

For people that understand true martial artist rank it not that important.
Do you think the people selling rank on the Internet understand and live in a true martial spirit or are they just cheap hucksters?


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *To get back on topic...............
> 
> Why do you think is it that some folks sell dan rank over the Internet?
> ...



THE THREAD IS GREAT BUT THE POLL SUCKED! IT NEEDED A THIRD CHOICE SOMETHING MORE IN BETWEEN. I'LL EXPLAIN:

Theres the question of being able to evaluate students with video tape. Lou Angel addresses this at the beginning of his Tenshi Goju Kai video. He tells you he has over 45 years in the the martial arts and he WILL BE ABLE to tell if your technique is correct.

Video evaluation is OK for the experienced martial artist, it CAN give the "Credibility to ones Training" after many years of training. 

The issue of your instructor not willing to teach you anymore or willing to teach you anymore really is a separate issue and so is selling rank. There is a definate problem if your instructor does not want anything to do with you. And selling rank is SELLING RANK, PERIOD!

But the name that signs the certification means a great deal. Lou Angel for example in a year will be celebrating his 50 year anniversry in the martial arts (which I'm invited to, I had to throw that in), and his instructor recoginzes him as 10th Dan, Hanshi of his own system, Tenshi Goju Kai. Lou's instructor is Maestro Peter Urban who is recognized as "The Father of All American Goju Systems." Peter Urban was the student of Gogen Yamaguchi.

Hanshi Lou Angel earned his 3rd Dan in 1963 in Japan directly from Gogen Yamaguchi. Credentials mean a lot when getting certified. Are there any among us that have those kind of credentials? Can anybody say that he can't evaluate me? 

There are actually people out there who have over 20 years in the arts but are not black belts. Joe Moreira a recognized 6th Dan in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, a rank almost unheard of in BJJ, brought to San Jose to train in the class I was in, the guy that got Joe to go to Joes first class. This guy that got Joe started was still wearing a blue belt.

Nothing will replace the Instructor, but there are those like me who took over 15 years to get a black belt. I had 4 years of Kajukenbo, a year Hapkido(in between Kajukenbo schools),3 years Bujutsu Taiho, a year of Kobujutsu, 5 years of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu(3 on the mat and 2 on my own) and 8 years Jun Fan Gung-Fu (3 under my Sifu and 5 teaching and training). My training was and is solid.

Am I worthy? I know I am. But I was a product of the '70's, I fell victim to the party life and spent several years in the '80's incarcerated. If you look in my profile, it says I've trained in the martial arts "OFF AND ON" since 1973. There is no reason to lie. My experience is diversified and when I teach I teach my students to be better than myself. Thats what a real instructor does. I also teach my students how to beat any system that I've trained in!

You can train for 15 years in one school but I'd prefer my training over that. Thats just me. I have 3 instructors in 4 arts that I haven't tested under yet but I am learning on a distant format. Do you think I will pass? You bet our life I will! Because I'm a fighter from the heart. I have my students to train with and that helps.

QUICK NOTE: a video test for a pure beginner can be a gimmick to sell a rank. The yin has its yang. I'm adding new systems to what I teach and the Instructors that I have chosen you cannot buy rank from. Inquire for yourself. Lou Angel(Tenshi Goju Kai), George Kirby(Budoshin Jujitsu), George Alexander(Matsumura Shorin Ryu and Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu).

2nd NOTE: Lou Angel  will evaluate your Goju test through video, pass or fail. George Kirbys Budoshin Jujitsu test will be done in person although you can send him sporadic video evaluations so that he guide you and prepare you for your in person test. Your first test will be no higher than a brown belt. George Alexanders Shorin Ryu test is in person with very few extreme cercumstances where the video test is permitted. His Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu test is done in person.

3rd NOTE: all three instructors are teaching by video tape although they prefer to teach in person. But this format enables them to build there organizations and allows them to be involved in the martial arts full time. And I am following in their footsteps and I too hope to be able to do martial arts full time!


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Lou Angel addresses this at the beginning of his Tenshi Goju Kai video. He tells you he has over 45 years in the the martial arts and he WILL BE ABLE to tell if your technique is correct.*



While I know what it is you are trying to say with this, regardless of the amount of experience a person has, the best evaluation tool is first hand, hands on evaluation.



> *Video evaluation is OK for the experienced martial artist, it CAN give the "Credibility to ones Training" after many years of training.*



Video evaluation would be okay for perhaps learning the sequences of forms, for asking questions based on 2 person technical variants for applications, but not for evaluating a person's skills for promotion.  I firmly believe that if a student is being evaluated for advancement, it should be done in person.

What did you mean by "credibility to ones training?"  I didn't really understand you there... 



> *The issue of your instructor not willing to teach you anymore or willing to teach you anymore really is a separate issue and so is selling rank. There is a definate problem if your instructor does not want anything to do with you. And selling rank is SELLING RANK, PERIOD!*



Amen, brother.  Whether you call it "recognizing," "acknowledging," or anything else, it amounts to the same thing - providing rank for money.



> *But the name that signs the certification means a great deal. Lou Angel for example in a year will be celebrating his 50 year anniversry in the martial arts (which I'm invited to, I had to throw that in), and his instructor recoginzes him as 10th Dan, Hanshi of his own system, Tenshi Goju Kai. Lou's instructor is Maestro Peter Urban who is recognized as "The Father of All American Goju Systems." Peter Urban was the student of Gogen Yamaguchi.*



"Hanshi of his own system."  Note that it is not _soke_, a questionable term that is used far too often these days...

Why is Urban called "maestro?"  What is the reason behind that variation of the title?  Just curious...



> *My experience is diversified and when I teach I teach my students to be better than myself. Thats what a real instructor does. *



And that is hard to od via video or by handing out certificates to people who have never studied the same style as you...  



> *You can train for 15 years in one school but I'd prefer my training over that. Thats just me. I have 3 instructors in 4 arts that I haven't tested under yet but I am learning on a distant format. Do you think I will pass? You bet our life I will! Because I'm a fighter from the heart. I have my students to train with and that helps.*



There are two camps to this line of thinking - those who believe a number of years in a single style is better than the same number of years in multiple styles (with varying lengths of time in any given style), and those who believe the exposure to other styles outweighs the lack of consistent training in one discipline.

Personally, I am more of the former than the latter.  However, that would only hold true if the style being studied is inclusive of training in multiple ranges and varied techniques (i.e. striking as well as grappling of some sort, like chin na, etc.).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## A.R.K. (Feb 8, 2003)

Akja,

That was a well presented post.  

I think their is a difference between an instructor not wanting to promote you vs an instructor who is unable to promote you.  As an example, a student is just a bad apple and the instructor realizes it.  He refuses to teach him/her further until they get their act together, possibly even having them leave the school.  That is a very legitimate reason not to promote someone, and something many instructors are forced to contend with.  

Now lets look at an instructor that can't promote you.  Back in the early 80's a friend of mine was training and competing.  And doing very well.  He had several trophies and awards during about a 6 year career while moving up the ranks.  Just before he was to test for his Shodan his family moved to another state.  He was unable to test with his instructor and remained BB recommended.  After the move was complete he began the search for a new dojo in the same style.  And he actually found several that were the same style/lineage.  However, they all told him the same thing...white belt.  He had all the proper documentation, his old instructor vouched for him via phone but it boiled down to an issue of money.  The new dojo instructors felt they would be out 6 years worth of tuition by honoring him at his level.  They said basically after a 'couple' of years they might consider it.

Now here is a man with 6 hard years of training.  Having won or done well in multiple competitions.  Willing to show a new instructor that he knew all the required materials needed for testing.  Willing to compensate the new instructor financially for his time in evaluating his ability AND paying the required testing fee when the next testing date came around.  Still a no go.  As this was the early 80's it was not as simple as today to video tape a presentation and send it to the old instructor for evaluation.  Back then not everyone had a camera or VCR.

We can all say things like 'train for the techniqiues and not worry about belts'.  And I agree and teach my students the same.  But lets be honest for a moment, after years of hard work it is nice to have the peer recognition.  To a different extent from person to person perhaps.  I very rarely wear my BB from years ago, I just normally don't feel the need...but it is nice to know I've earned one.  Earning a BB is a milestone in a person's life, like a graduation.  It is a time to share with family in many places.  So the man on principle didn't feel like playing a money game and simply took at pass because at that time there was no reasonable alternative.  

However, what if there was an instructor in his style to turn to,perferably in person but if not via a presentation.  Someone who was not interested in financial compensation but took enjoyment in teaching and testing and was happy to extend a hand.  Lets face it, you can only fake so much, even on tape.  You can tell a mechanical, hurredly rehearsed kata or technique as opposed to someone who truly understands body mechanics and economy of motion.  And if there is any doubt the instructor always has the option to deny the rank.  

Same if an instructor dies or the school closes.  I'm sure we could all think of circumstances that are beyond the student's control.  Life is like that occasionally.  Plus, just because a student tests in a school he/she trains in is no guarentee that they can actually effectively use the training in actual combat.  There will always be a risk of what the student actually knows and can apply in an actual incident.  No amount of any training, be it dojo or back alley can prepare one completely for a sudden and violent life/death assualt.  You can prepare a soldier for battle but will not know until the moment of truth whether the training truly clicked or he/she was merely good at going through the motions.  

This is my opinion.

I feel that organizations that 'sell' a rank of any nature for financial gain or to be avoided.  I feel that organizations that truly are set up to assist the individual without regard to financial gain are worthwhile if run properly.  Nothing is perfect.

Take care.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

Credibilty in Ones training-------For me after all those years I had 2 brown belts and people all around me even at work with their 2 year black belts. Most of my training in my core arts I put in at least 3 years but for differant reasons ended up in other arts before reaching blackbelt. 

It dosen't matter what anybody thinks, I was ready to promote. I was promoted "based on merit" by a student of Bushido Kempos Gary Dill. My Sifus father (Felix Macias Sr.) was the senior student in the Oakland JKD school and Gary Dill was a student of the Oakland JKD school and went on to create Bushido Kempo which is technique based on JKD. Gary Dill is also a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship. 

His student Carter Hargrave (Gary Dill Certified him in JKD and Bushido Kempo) promoted me gave me his system which he created, American Combat Kempo to use as a base to build off of and to expand on my personal system. Carter Hargrave promoted me to 5th Dan based on my experience and Full JKD Instructor based on my video which was recorded over a couple of years with my Sifu Felix Macias Jr. teaching me. Yes I paid him to test, but it is a one time fee that covers membership and is renewed every year for free. Carter Hargrave is a member of the World Sokeship Council.
http://www.sokecouncil.com/
I am a student and promoter of eclectic and traditional arts.

Hanshi Lou Angel is also a Soke, but I haven't heard him use the term. He is a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship which is headed up by Sanjitsu's founder Frank Sanchez.
http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/

Actually Lou Angel, George Kirby and George Alexander are all members of this Sokeship. At the site Peter Urbin is listed as the Grand patriarch of all American Goju systems. The name Maestro is I think out of respect. He is the man credited with bringing Goju to America. he taught Lou Angel back in the 50's and 60's. He was an instructor of the black dragon Ron Van Cleif.

With Lou Angel, George Kirby and George Alexander I am Learning their systems. That is why I haven't tested under them yet.

I was just stating I would choose my diversification over the straight time in one system as best for me. I've trained long and hard in good systems with good instructors.


----------



## A.R.K. (Feb 8, 2003)

Akja,

I have a question that comes to mind.  You mentioned that you paid a testing fee to Carter Hargrave for your test/membership.  You felt confident in his abilities as an instructor and he in you as the 'testee' so to speak for rank advancement.  So you were advanced.

I'm not asking what the fee was, nor is it our business.  But the question I have is this;  Does the amount of the fee change anything to you?  If its an instructor you have confidence in, if it fairly judges your ability is there a difference if you are charged $500 or $5?  In other words is the $500 more worthy than the $5 if it's the same test?  Or if you were tested for free, does that diminish the accomplishment in any way?

It seems that you had confidence in your instructor and he in you.  You felt confidence in your ability to complete testing and to accept review/critique/approval.  My point would be that its not the $ but your ability that counts and that you had a venue you could utilize to fulfill a goal.

I would appreciate your thoughts.  I recognize some of the names you have mentioned and though I don't know them personally I have received positive opinions.

Take care.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 8, 2003)

Buying rank should be made illegal. Video teaching should only be bought for reference on how to do a few moves that you have allready learned in the dojo.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

SRyuFighter,
Cigerettes and alcohol should be made illegal too! So!
You really don't know what your talking about when it comes to training! I have more years in the arts than you've been on this earth! How are you going to tell me? 


Zhao Dai Wei,
My Sifu who trained me in Jun Fan Gung-Fu does not certify, nor did he ever. My abilities are very good. I spent a few years on the mat in BJJ fixing my weak areas. 

I was certified by the World Kempo Association and the World Jeet Kune Do Federation through Carter Hargrave. Thats another area that this thread didn't address yet. What should you do if your instructor does not certify but you want to open up a school and teach. 

My art is complete in all ranges of combat. I've learned alot over the years and I teach the way I train and I teach my students to be able to beat any system that I've learned. People think that if you go to an outside source for "paper" then your art must be weak. Thats wrong. I teach what most instructors won't teach until your a brown belt and even more. Its my goal to make someone better than me and not hold back at all. I teach in a progression that allows a student to be able to flow in all ranges effeciently while honing in areas that work best for them.

My abilities are strong and when someone comes at me with some attitude, I say bring it on! If someone says that dosn't work but this will, I say "show me!"


----------



## DAC..florida (Feb 8, 2003)

If your talking about paying someone who has no idea who you are or what you know, thats wrong!

but if the online organization is ethier going on your current ranking and has proof of it !!!!  or the organization is requiring a video tape of your skills that's o.k. in my book. how else would be a member of different organizations from around the world.


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 8, 2003)

I trained from 1986 until 1987.  Then I joined the Army.  Contrary to what many civilians seem to think (based on the popularity of instructors who tout their military experience as some kind of substantiation of their HTH skills), there is no program of official ongoing HTH training of any kind.  Some units do it to supplement their physical fitness training, but that is an infrequent occurance at best.  I continued to train, off and on as time permitted, while I was in the Army.  In 1990 I got out and returned to training.  In 1991 I was called back to help out with Desert Storm.  When I returned, my school had closed and my teacher had retired from public teaching to attend to things in his personal life.

In a school where the rank structure consisted of:

Novice - No belt
Beginner - 3 grades of white sash/belt
Intermediate - 3 grades of yellow sash/belt
Advanced - 3 grades of blue sash/belt
Senior - 3 grades of black sash/belt
Master - 3 grades of red sash/belt

I had attained, by 1991, the first grade of blue sash.  I continued to train on my own, occasionally under the supervision of some of the folks in my city who were senior in grade to me.  In 1998 I tested for the first grade of black sash under one of our senior students, with the authorization and blessing of our retired teacher.  In 2000, our teacher returned to tutoring us part time, and in 2001 (?) I was awarded the second grade of black sash.

By that time I had 15 years in training in the same system.  The only reason I tested in 1998 was to simply have that past me, so it would never again be a concern to me, nor a question to my seniors.  I had absolutely no belief that I would be able to test again, nor any concern for it.  I was content that I was training, whether it was only over things I had already learned, or on things I could still learn from other seniors (although since in 1995 I reenlisted in the Army, I was geographically separated from all of them).

So I present two questions:

1)  Should I have gone to another school or teacher and asked them to evaluate my skills?  Many organizations offer such things, and I am sure I could have found someone willing to do it.

2)  If I had done such a thing, a) how would they evaluate my training having no knowledge of our system's methods and requirements; and b) what grade should they have advanced me to?

I appreciate any comments.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 8, 2003)

I think that buying any rank should be illegal.  to me that means if you pay for the test you buy your rank.   Why should it cost 100-1000 dollars to test. if thats not buying rank nothing is


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

Yiliquan1, 
I could only speak from my pursuits. My certificaction comes from the same lineage, so that helps. If you go outside your system, then you'd be expected to learn their system.


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 8, 2003)

I can't speak for others, but for my testing I paid $100...

$50 was to pay for the hand made sash (all of which went to pay for the materials; it was made for free).  $50 was to pay for the steak dinner my senior treated me to after causing me as much pain as he did during the test...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Mike Clarke (Feb 8, 2003)

Is rank just about the physical ability to remember some techniques then? If so then maybe you could see someone on a video and come to a conclussion? But what about their character?

I would never award dan rank to someone for their physical ablity alone. Important though that is, it is not the be all and end all of progress. I have a student at the moment who could well have recieved his shodan [1st dan] last year, but  [in my eyes] he has some way to go yet in his battle with his ego, and so, until he makes progress there he'll remain a 1st kyu.

Selling rank is for idiots! Buying rank, is for BIGGER idiots!!

To put a monitary value on any rank devalues it, and no self respecting martial artist would want something so cheap attached to their name [would they?].

Five munites after I had been awarded godan [5th dan], I was standing infront of my sensei with a bucket and spong, and being shown [in detail] the best way to wash his car.
I look back now and understand that the 'test' I had that day was not the kata and kumite I'd just done in the dojo, but my reaction to being asked to do some chores.

I'm glad passed that one.

I can understand people new to martial arts wanting rank, but if you ask anyone who has been training seriously for ten years or more, you'll find very few that put 'that' much store by the rank they hold.

Mike.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 8, 2003)

now maybe i should qualify my statwment.  I have no problem with the cost and reason given by Yiliquan1 .  
The cost of covering material for a sash,New uniform, and the cost of haveing a certificate printed up are all fine and above board ( imho) as is the cost of a dinner .
I object to the outragios prices paid for getting a test date takeing the test and recieving a pieace of paper that costs Hundreds of dollars and was obviously mass produced.  Some coast can be considered ligit. but many test s are way over priced.
  If you live hundreds of miles or more or even thousands  from the nearest instructor in your system and you have the oppertunity to join a internet society run by someone you klnow and that knows you why not. If the testing then comes to you in the form of you preforming on viedo or learning from a viedo  why not.


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Yiliquan1,
> I could only speak from my pursuits. My certificaction comes from the same lineage, so that helps. If you go outside your system, then you'd be expected to learn their system. *



*akja -*

Your certifications don't cause me much concern, nor does your training.  I don't evern really mind (like that matters anyway) that you received a 5th dan from a previous brown belt level.  If that was what that instructor felt you rated in his style, after training with him, then fine.

I have to be honest and say that, very flatly, I have a lot of concern about the whole _soke_ thing, especially with organizations that recognize others as soke, and even more so with those who (for a fee) will recognize folks as soke...  I have run into far too many people who have fallen into this kind of thing, and every single one has been questionable in their skills and training.  Nice people, sure, but the entire situation regarding their titles and grading were suspect.

Your comment about going outside your own system echoes my feelings exactly.  If I leave Yiliquan and enter Shinto Muso-ryu Jojutsu, two completely different styles, I should have absolutely no priveliges within SMR because I trained in some style previously.  That is patently absurd.  Nor should I be eligible for any kind of advanced promotion consideration due to my previous training.  I earn exactly what I earn, and nothing more.

I was just curious.  I asked the question I asked in the hopes that others who believe such external promotions are valid would give me an idea of how they would view my training time.

Thanks!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *I think that buying any rank should be illegal.  to me that means if you pay for the test you buy your rank.   Why should it cost 100-1000 dollars to test. if thats not buying rank nothing is *



Wouldn't you be expected pay if you were joining an organization?

When I went in my pursuits I had well over 15 years in. If you want to limit yourself to training in 1 art for 30 years thats your buisness but I teach teach my students to understand all ranges and as well specialize what works best for them. 

I've been in a lot of schools and they don't compare to what I teach! I don't care who thinks what, paper is paper and a fight is a fight. My students are fighters!!! Most of the schools students out there couldn't fight there way out of a kindergarden playground!

One thing is for sure, most everybody downline from Bruce Lee has created their own system and mine is for real!

BRUCE LEE
           I               
JAMES LEE
           I                                                                   
FELIX MACIAS SR.                                           
           I                                                                   
FELIX MACIAS JR.                                        
           I
JAMESKOVACICH
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
BRUCE LEE
           I
JAMES LEE
           I
GARY DILL
           I
CARTER HARGRAVE
           I
JAMES KOVACICH

Who cares from where the paper came from. Technically we the same school. And my abilities are there. I've always been a fighter and I teach my students to be fighters. not ignorant wannabes! If I wasn,t a serious martial artist, do you think I would put my real name out there for all the world to see?


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Five munites after I had been awarded godan [5th dan], I was standing infront of my sensei with a bucket and spong, and being shown [in detail] the best way to wash his car.
> I look back now and understand that the 'test' I had that day was not the kata and kumite I'd just done in the dojo, but my reaction to being asked to do some chores.
> 
> I'm glad passed that one.*



That would be even more difficult for a person well into their adulthood to accept.  Overcoming the natural egotistical response of being asked to do some menial labor is a good test...  I would hope I would be able to fight down that monster and behave properly.  



> *Originally posted by tshadowchaser
> 
> If you live hundreds of miles or more or even thousands from the nearest instructor in your system and you have the oppertunity to join a internet society run by someone you klnow and that knows you why not. If the testing then comes to you in the form of you preforming on viedo or learning from a viedo why not.*



You would be correct if you included the caveat of joining a society that teaches what you were studying in the first place.  A Taijiquan organization has no business testing (in person or by video) a Shotokan student for his/her black belt...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 8, 2003)

No I  dont pay organisational fees and I havve studied more than a few systems in my 30+ years in the arts.
 I have no problem with a nominal fee for most things: joining a school, monthly fees, and a small fee for testing ,  I object when the fee becomes the decieding factor in a person being promoted not the knowledge.


----------



## A.R.K. (Feb 8, 2003)

I have a comment or two....



*I think that buying any rank should be illegal. to me that means if you pay for the test you buy your rank. Why should it cost 100-1000 dollars to test. if thats not buying rank nothing is* 



*I can't speak for others, but for my testing I paid $100...* 
*$50 was to pay for the hand made sash (all of which went to pay for the materials; it was made for free). $50 was to pay for the steak dinner my senior treated me to after causing me as much pain as he did during the test... * 

tshadowchaser, you make a valid point, but as Yiliquan1 points out it is what you are actually paying for.  He paid for his sash and honored his instructor wit a good meal.  I don't think one could comapre that to say paying $750 for a test, or as you point out even more.  I have heard first hand of some folks being asked to dole out thousands.  So I agree with your opinion with consideration for fair expenses on the part of the instructor.

I charge $10 for a testing fee in the kyu levels, if the student can afford it.  Don't laugh, some can't.  The $10 goes towards the cost of a belt and a nice certificate.  I wouldn't call that a case of buying rank.

Every BB I have thus far promoted has been at no cost to them.  I have shouldered the expense for things like an embroidered BB and a very nice certificate.  My thoughts are that they have put in the sweat/blood in mat time.  They have honored me with chosing me to teach them so I honor them in return for their hard work.  

Yiliquan1,

*1) Should I have gone to another school or teacher and asked them to evaluate my skills? Many organizations offer such things, and I am sure I could have found someone willing to do it.* 

Are you talking about another school of same/similar style or completely different?  If it was the same I would say it depends on your goals.  You seem to be satisfied with your progress and level despite your absences.  If you are satisfied their is probably no reason to go elsewhere.



*2) If I had done such a thing, a) how would they evaluate my training having no knowledge of our system's methods and requirements; and b) what grade should they have advanced me to?* 

I dont see how they would be able to evaluate you fairly.  If a different school/organization had access to a pool of qualified instructors of appropriate rank to test you in the system you had received training in then I see that as a viable alternative.  But I will put a disclaimer on this opinion;  If they are looking to rape you on some high dollar fee I would avoid it.  If out of mutual courtesty and respect they offer a reasonable fee to cover the above mentioned expenses [if any] then I see no problem.  

Also lets say an instructor charges $25/hour for a private lesson as an example.  He is a qualified instructor in your style.  I think it would be fair to at least compensate him for his time for the duration of the testing.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *No I  dont pay organisational fees and I havve studied more than a few systems in my 30+ years in the arts.
> I have no problem with a nominal fee for most things: joining a school, monthly fees, and a small fee for testing ,  I object when the fee becomes the decieding factor in a person being promoted not the knowledge. *



Then I ask how do YOU know what are the promotion takes place.

I have a friend of mine that was trained by a Thai fighter from Thailand and he wants to be cage fighter. He came to me asked me to train him. He said he'll train as often as I'm willing to teach him. That tells me something that I already know. I have it! and it shows. 

It dosen't matter what the world thinks. I teach my students to respect the old but embrace the new. I don't care about this or that system. Its all about my system, which is effective, realistic and modern!


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

Zhao Dai Wei,

You are a wise man but i'm confused with you last paragraph.
Of course an instructor must be compensated. Over the years I can't count how many thousands of dollars that I've put out. 

I think I'm just misunderstanding you. But I don't think that anybody out there is going to promote or evaluate you after paying him for an hour of training.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 8, 2003)

Most of my promotion test came with no forwarning and where paid for by my sweat,blood, and determination to survive and do the best I could.  
  I have said nothing about you, your school  or your students. I dont know you except from these few posts.  What you teach is what you teach.  No one is saying there is any problem with that.  
  I have simply stated that I do not agree with outragious fees for I feel that they are just a way of buying rank. The thread was on internet testing and I somewhat addressed that also.  If you fell that I have attacked you personaly some why sorry about that it was not intended.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Feb 8, 2003)

Do you think buying martial arts dan rank over the Internet is a legitimate way to earn rank ?


That was the original question lets bring the disscusion  back to the topic


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *He paid for his sash and honored his instructor wit a good meal.*



Incorrect.  If you re-read my post, I pointed out that _he_ took _me_ out for dinner...  He paid for his own meal out of his own pocket!  And yes, dinner _did_ cost that much...  Afterward we sat on the couch and passed out from pain and exhaustion.



> *Yiliquan1,
> 
> 1) Should I have gone to another school or teacher and asked them to evaluate my skills? Many organizations offer such things, and I am sure I could have found someone willing to do it.
> 
> Are you talking about another school of same/similar style or completely different?  If it was the same I would say it depends on your goals.  You seem to be satisfied with your progress and level despite your absences.  If you are satisfied their is probably no reason to go elsewhere.*



When I said "another school," I should have qualified that.  Should I have gone to a school outside my own to be ranked by them?  What would they rank me in?  What would their standards be?  What if I wanted advancement in my previous style?

I am quite satisfied with my own situation.  I actually resisted the advancement to Senior Level 2, but was eventually told to shut up and deal with it.    He is my teacher, so out of respect for him, I did.



> *2) If I had done such a thing, a) how would they evaluate my training having no knowledge of our system's methods and requirements; and b) what grade should they have advanced me to?
> 
> I dont see how they would be able to evaluate you fairly.  If a different school/organization had access to a pool of qualified instructors of appropriate rank to test you in the system you had received training in then I see that as a viable alternative.  But I will put a disclaimer on this opinion;  If they are looking to rape you on some high dollar fee I would avoid it.  If out of mutual courtesty and respect they offer a reasonable fee to cover the above mentioned expenses [if any] then I see no problem.*



But again, as you stated above, someone from outside my own system would be unable to evaluate me fairly.  Simply, a TKD person cannot evaluate a Jujutsu student, and unless the styles are nearly identical (I know of some Shotokan people that later transferred to TKD, and the transition was easy since all the forms were identical, though with slightly different emphasis), style X will never be able to evaluate style Z properly.

If someone is out to make a buck, they will do whatever they want to do so...



> *Also lets say an instructor charges $25/hour for a private lesson as an example.  He is a qualified instructor in your style.  I think it would be fair to at least compensate him for his time for the duration of the testing. *



I would have no problem with this.  In fact, the person that tested me for my black drove 200 miles to do it, stayed with me for the weekend, I took him out for food constantly (my bill), and took care of him as best I could.  No worries, there.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *Most of my promotion test came with no forwarning and where paid for by my sweat,blood, and determination to survive and do the best I could.
> I have said nothing about you, your school  or your students. I dont know you except from these few posts.  What you teach is what you teach.  No one is saying there is any problem with that.
> I have simply stated that I do not agree with outragious fees for I feel that they are just a way of buying rank. The thread was on internet testing and I somewhat addressed that also.  If you fell that I have attacked you personaly some why sorry about that it was not intended. *



Sorry for my rambling, no direct insinuations were meant!

Back to the topic. To me there is a big differance from just buying a piece of paper which I think most people here think is going on. And associating yourself with an organization to put yourself in the position to earn rank that you may already deserve.

I think I just touched the real question. Is the rank worthy of being considered EARNED? 

Not in the sense of the old ways. But the old ways are not being respected like they used to.

My main focus is legitimizing my personal system. And I won't be happy until ALL OF MY INSTUCTORS recognizes it!


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 8, 2003)

tshadowchaser,

I have much respect for the traditional martial art world. But the world has changed and with change comes adaptation. Those who don't adapt, fall behind. Too many instructors have closed their eyes to the rest of the world and that is more of problem than where the paper comes from. 

Personally, Carter Hargrave is more than qualified to give me rank. He was promoted by Gary Dill in Bushido Kempo and JKD more than 10 years ago and he founded his own system American Combat Kempo approximately 10 years ago as well as founding the World kempo Association and World Jeet Kune Do Federation.

I was in contact with him for about 10 months give or take before I joined him. We are for the most part same school and that meant something to me. I teach his Kempo alongside my Kempo Jujitsu and do not teach JKD at all except within my Kempo Jujitsu.

BOTTOM LINE:
My system is for real and thats what makes the paper "EARNED."


----------



## A.R.K. (Feb 8, 2003)

Akja,

Let me clarify my comment.  If the instructor charges x amount for a private lesson and you go to him and request to be tested he is taking time out of his schedule to do so for you.  This is assuming he is not your regular instructor with reguarly scheduled testing dates.  If he is taking time out for you I think it is fair to at least offer to compensate him for his time.

For example lets say I'm a TKD instructor and I'm say 6th degree.  Your a TKD instructor of say 3rd degree.  Your instructor has passed on and I'm the only other guy in town in our style.  It comes time for you to test for 4th.  You come to me and request testing.  Its going to take 3 hours [just as an example] to do so.  That is 3 hours out of my work week and I have to put food on the table.  I think to at least offer to compensate him for his time would be appropriate.  If I decline and say no problem then good deal.  But it would be respectful in such a circumstance to offer him his due.  I would not consider that buying rank rather it is respectful of his time.  As I said if the dojo is his only bread and butter the man has to eat 

Hope this clarifies a bit.  With the GCMAG their is a small fee of a few bucks and it goes to charity.  I don't consider that buying rank either.  The instructor doesn't get a penny, his time is donated in such cases.  My thoughts....


----------



## A.R.K. (Feb 8, 2003)

Yiiquan1,

My apologies, I did mis-read your post.  Either way would be fine.  You treating him out of respect or him treating you for the torture  



*But again, as you stated above, someone from outside my own system would be unable to evaluate me fairly. Simply, a TKD person cannot evaluate a Jujutsu student, and unless the styles are nearly identical (I know of some Shotokan people that later transferred to TKD, and the transition was easy since all the forms were identical, though with slightly different emphasis), style X will never be able to evaluate style Z properly.* 

We are in agreement.  If an organization has a pool of instructors to draw upon and one is same/similar to you then good deal.  As you point out TKD to JKD is apples to oranges.

Take care.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 8, 2003)

OK, well some things that are a little of topic but need some light shed on them.



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *    But the name that signs the certification means a great deal. Lou Angel for example in a year will be celebrating his 50 year anniversry in the martial arts (which I'm invited to, I had to throw that in), and his instructor recoginzes him as 10th Dan, Hanshi of his own system, Tenshi Goju Kai. Lou's instructor is Maestro Peter Urban who is recognized as "The Father of All American Goju Systems." Peter Urban was the student of Gogen Yamaguchi. *



Peter Urban did such a great job of representing Goju the his teachers back in Japan asked him to step down.
His book the Karate dojo is chocker block full of fantasy.
He states all kinds of nonsense, not the least of which was Motobu Choki was a giant of 7 feet or some such BS. Motobu was actually about 5 foot 5 and is it painfully obvious to anyone that has seen a photo of him.



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *    Hanshi Lou Angel earned his 3rd Dan in 1963 in Japan directly from Gogen Yamaguchi. Credentials mean a lot when getting certified. Are there any among us that have those kind of credentials? Can anybody say that he can't evaluate me? *



Here again, not to take anything from Mr. Angel, a person I have heard nothing but good things about, Yamaguchi Gogens training was considered fairly dubious by many of his Goju peers. 



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> It dosen't matter what anybody thinks, I was ready to promote. I was promoted "based on merit" by a student of Bushido Kempos Gary Dill. My Sifus father (Felix Macias Sr.) was the senior student in the Oakland JKD school and Gary Dill was a student of the Oakland JKD school and went on to create Bushido Kempo which is technique based on JKD. Gary Dill is also a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship. *



The World Head of Family Sokeship lists my teacher on their website.
They were asked to remove his name on several occasions since he has no connection to them, nor does he care to.
The World Head of Family Sokeships rational for listing him was that the were recognizing him as a Soke. 
Mr. Oyata neither wants nor needs their recognition. He also does not use the term Soke.
Therefore one can only conclude that they use Mr. Oyatas name (without his permission) for their own benefit and to establish in the minds of people that see it some sort of legitimacy for the World Head of Family Sokeship since Mr. Oyata is somewhat of a respected figure in Okainwan martial arts.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *tshadowchaser,
> 
> I have much respect for the traditional martial art world. But the world has changed and with change comes adaptation. Those who don't adapt, fall behind. Too many instructors have closed their eyes to the rest of the world and that is more of problem than where the paper comes from. *



There is good adaptation and then there is bad adaptation..which is better known as perversion. Getting rank over the Internet would be considered a perversion. 
There is no substitute for training face to face with a qualified teacher.


----------



## chufeng (Feb 8, 2003)

> RyuShiKan wrote:  The World Head of Family Sokeship lists my teacher on their website.
> They were asked to remove his name on several occasions since he has no connection to them, nor does he care to.
> The World Head of Family Sokeships rational for listing him was that the were recognizing him as a Soke.
> Mr. Oyata neither wants nor needs their recognition. He also does not use the term Soke.
> Therefore one can only conclude that they use Mr. Oyatas name (without his permission) for their own benefit and to establish in the minds of people that see it some sort of legitimacy for the World Head of Family Sokeship...



Outrageous...any organization that uses someone else's reputation to bolster their own alleged legitimacy is blatantly fraudulant...especially if the individual has asked repeatedly to have his name removed from their literature, website, list, etc.

HUGE RED FLAG...BUYER BEWARE...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## D.Cobb (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Mr. Oyata is somewhat of a respected figure in Okainwan martial arts. *



Is that like saying a Rolls Royce is somewhat of an expensive car? 

--Dave


----------



## Shinzu (Feb 9, 2003)

i actually was looking for someone to test me for my black belt in shotokan via video.  i am a legitimate 1st kyu and wanted to test for dan.   

no one was willing to test someone they had never met before, and i respect that.  if a shotokan school opens up in the area then i will pursue this option, but i won't hold my breath too long.


----------



## D.Cobb (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *The IKCA is one that a lot of internet friends have commented on what
> a great video training course it is.  I can't attest to it, since I
> haven't studied it, but I've met a lot that have.
> *



A good friend of mine trained in this style as well. We were watching the tapes one day and I commented that I wasn't too keen on the fact that GM Sullivan had his rear foot turned out, whilst in the forward stance, to about 90 degrees.
My buddy laughed and said that he used to copy the stance exactly as GM Sullivan did it, but when he sent his tape for grading, GM LeRoux sent it back telling him to correct the stance. It turns out that Mr. Sullivan stands like that because he broke his ankle years ago. Unfortunately that isn't pointed out to the newbies until after the fact...

Nothing like being there in person.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## D.Cobb (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I am quite satisfied with my own situation.  I actually resisted the advancement to Senior Level 2, but was eventually told to shut up and deal with it.    He is my teacher, so out of respect for him, I did.*



When the time comes for Dan gradings, my instructor posts a list in the reception area of our school.
He says, "If your name isn't on the list  and you think it should be, come and see me and we will discuss it."
He then goes on to say, "If your name is up there and you don't  think it should be, then you'd better take over the class, because obviously you know more than I do about your ability!"

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Is that like saying a Rolls Royce is somewhat of an expensive car?
> 
> --Dave *




I meet very few people that know who he is.......but I do meet people that have heard of tuite and kyusho.........2 things he introduced into America.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *When the time comes for Dan gradings, my instructor posts a list in the reception area of our school.
> He says, "If your name isn't on the list  and you think it should be, come and see me and we will discuss it."
> He then goes on to say, "If your name is up there and you don't  think it should be, then you'd better take over the class, because obviously you know more than I do about your ability!"
> ...



That's cool.


----------



## chufeng (Feb 9, 2003)

> To me there is a big differance from just buying a piece of paper which I think most people here think is going on. And associating yourself with an organization to put yourself in the position to earn rank that you may already deserve.



Within this post lies one of the problems...anyone who believes that they DESERVE rank, probably doesn't...those who do deserve it, won't think they deserve it...

I knew a judoka who was ranked at white belt for five years...
His teacher was old fashioned (ranked in Judo and JuJitsu) and tested his student's desire to learn the system by whether they WANTED rank, or could care less...when it was time for this white belt to move away, his teacher handed him a green-belt and told him that he was ready for a brown, but he could get that from his next teacher...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 9, 2003)

RyuShiKan,

First I've never heard anything but good things of Gogen Yamaguchi and Peter Urbin. You stated 3 things that I've never heard. The Sokeships, I assume are not a thing of the past, that would make them relatively new and the majority of the "Heads of Familys" are Americans, which leads to the another.

I never heard that of peter Urbin but something did obviously happen because you always hear people say they are unsure why he had broke away from Japan and started his U.S.A. Goju. From an Americans point of view(generally), considering the times back then, I don't think any American could of lived up the Japanese standards. We just were not raised in a structured way, its not in our blood. 

But he is still the one that Introduced Goju to America and is considered the Father of all American Goju Systems. I was under the impression that Gogen Yamaguchi was the successor to Goju in the mainland Japan and Meitoku Yagi was designated in Okinawa.

But I am curious about the "Dubiousness of Gogen Yamaguchi." And would that have anything to do with Gogens son Gosei Yamaguchi came to America.

A FOOTNOTE: Americans since the beginning have found their own way in everything they've done. That is to be expected I would think. We've all heard the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do." Thats all I can say about are culture without igniting a "cultural debate."


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *SRyuFighter,
> Cigerettes and alcohol should be made illegal too! So!
> You really don't know what your talking about when it comes to training! I have more years in the arts than you've been on this earth! How are you going to tell me?
> ...


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

I can see it now..........next time I call Domino's Pizza in the US.........Yeah gimme a large Pepperoni with everything, a 2 liter and let's see............ah yeah thrown in a couple of 6 dans and a Sokeship too will ya.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 9, 2003)

Hahaha, well seriousily though don't you all think that that is wrong. There was a guy in my area that bought his rank over the internet and one of his students got seriousily hurt by a few bullies. It was a very sad thing, shortly after that the truth of his instructor came out. And the credibility of the good instructors is still being questioned. That is personally why I think that it is wrong to buy rank such as over the internet or something like that. Paying for a test is no big deal. But buying a rank is wrong, it's simply wrong.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  The Sokeships, I assume are not a thing of the past, that would make them relatively new and the majority of the "Heads of Familys" are Americans, which leads to the another. *



The World Head of Family Sokeship problem with my teacher is about 4~5 years old.
They have no right to use or associate themselves with his name and several other respected martial artist and only do so to make themselves sound more legit..........which they aren't.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  But he is still the one that Introduced Goju to America and is considered the Father of all American Goju Systems. *



This is could be true. 




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  I was under the impression that Gogen Yamaguchi was the successor to Goju in the mainland Japan and Meitoku Yagi was designated in Okinawa. *



The Head Honcho title for Goju in Okinawa was claimed I think by 2 people at one time. 
Since Mr. Yagi just died last week, and the other died some time back I have no idea who is the head now.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  But I am curious about the "Dubiousness of Gogen Yamaguchi." And would that have anything to do with Gogens son Gosei Yamaguchi came to America. *



From what I have heard and read from various sources Yamaguchis training was lacking on many levels. Having seen him do a demo and watching the poor quality of his technique, then seeing him perform a kata, forget part of it half way through then adlib for a bit and finally finish the kata was a bit disappointing.
Yamaguchi also claims to have killed a tiger while interned in a Russian POW camp during WWIIa claim that is pure BS.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *Hahaha, well seriousily though don't you all think that that is wrong.  *




When people start calling themselves Soke  and claiming and handful of 10th dans and 9th dans, selling dan ranks over the Internet etc,  they cheapen the art for those that train seriously.
Those impostors remind me of Barney Fief (Andy Griffith Show) claiming they are going to give somebody a deadly Judo Chop.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 9, 2003)

Exactly, they are cheating their students out of good training. And embarrasing the Martial Arts community with their actions.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Feb 9, 2003)

I think we can say the same thing for people who go from 2nd degree, to 5th degree to GM within about a year or so.

A piece of paper means nothing.  It is the skill behind it that matters.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 9, 2003)

Another good point.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

Akja, 

I just noticed something.

You and I were born on the same day.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 9, 2003)

AKJA, 

I just had a quick peak at your website. http://www.scientific-streetfighting.com/home.html

I noticed your style is called ATEMI KEMPO JUJITSU.

What is your definition of atemi?

Also, something you may want to change is this:
SHICHIKYU 7th Kyu Orange Belt - 6 Months ------------------------------------Orange - Shichikyu - Tapes #1 & 2

While shichi is used in Japanese for counting it is never used in this context.
Actually the word nanakyu (7th kyu) would be used instead of shichi.

Why?
The word for death in Japanese is shi and shichi (7) sounds similar to shi= death


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 9, 2003)

When I posted my site. I mistook the guy I was talking to for being my friend who I referred to my Sifu but he was actually my friends friend. After I referred my friend, he brought in a couple of his friends too. When I saw him talking about my Sifu and his profiles employment is the same as my friends. I thought he was friend and I wanted him to see the updatesthat he hadn't seen. Actually he showed t to my Sifu which I would of done "when it was finished' and now he is upset.

My site is far from ready to be plastered all over the internet, nothing is near complete, its a work in progress but since you put it out there, lets go. 

1st- My definition of Atemi is to strike but more acurately to strike the vital areas. Atemi is a word that I chose because it in my opinion goes well with the word Kempo. There are a few "Kempo Jujitsus out there. Mine is differant, and it needs to be represented differantly. Secondly my I promised My Sifu I wouldn't teach his art in a fashion similar to Jeet Kune Do Concepts. In other words adding more arts. I have kept that promise. This opened the door for my system. I used Carter Hargraves American Combat Kempo as a base and I've been expanding upon ever since.

I was already a grappler when I met my Sifu and it is a part of me. The way I train and teach isn't what the majority of instructors do. I have a lot of experience in good systems.

I don't put down the traditional arts. I have 3 traditional Instructors. But like in my other posts I stated that I teach my students to beat any system that I've learned. 

There are no kata, no chambered punches, no deep stances that I have yet to see anyone use in actual combat. Just realistic fight training based on all of my experience with Jun Fan Gung-Fu and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu being drawn from the most. 

I teach differantly in a lot of respects. I like to start in the clinch. Its to easy starting from the outside or on the ground. We do that too. But I have 5 ranges. The three main are outside striking range, clinch range and  ground grappling range. The two sub ranges are trapping or outside to clinch range and stand up grappling or clinch to ground grappling.

Thats how I teach starting in the clinch. A fight can go in any direction at any time. So its important to start from all 3 main ranges. If you are trying to teach your students to flow in all ranges they need a method of training that takes a realistic approach to all ranges.

I believe in teaching all ranges separately so that they get a deep "understanding" of all ranges but we also spend a lot of time practicing "all ranges" together. Thats the only way to develop "the flow." 

Don't misunderstand me. I understand the importance of preseving the old and I know that I can and do learn from Kata. But a realistic approach for the students of today is much differant than what most are actually doing. 

Anybody can say so and so's rank isn't worth anything but mine is an "eclectic system" which really has nothing to do with traditionalism. I am actually putting back in "some"of the traditionalism. Structure is important and students who respect one another but at the same time they need to be modern day warriors.

IF YOU DON'T MIND. COULD YOU ENLIGHTEN ME ABOUT YOUR SYSTEM. DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS NOT YOUR OWN. I JUST WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO I AM TALKING TO. I THINK IT IS FAIR SINCE YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT ME.


----------



## JDenz (Feb 9, 2003)

I think that it depends on your stlye and skill level.  Now say I am a BJJ guy. Say I studied for 4-5 years at a place with just a brown or even purple belt.  So I send in a video of my training and my tournament wins and get the rank.


----------



## Doc (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Do you think buying martial arts dan rank over the Internet is a legitimate way to earn rank ? *



That's one of the reasons why rank hasn't had any meaning in years. Seems like everybody is a black belt, or a "master" in something you never heard of because someone made it up in the last ten years. Everybody has an uncle who is a grandmaster.

My people don't wear belt stripes at all. Why should we? We know who we are, and don't care whether anyone else knows or not.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *That's one of the reasons why rank hasn't had any meaning in years. Seems like everybody is a black belt, or a "master" in something you never heard of because someone made it up in the last ten years. Everybody has an uncle who is a grandmaster.
> 
> My people don't wear belt stripes at all. Why should we? We know who we are, and don't care whether anyone else knows or not. *




I agree.

Which is why I am more wary of the guy that says "I am just a shodan" than the guy who claims to be a Soke .
"The wise eagle hides it's claws"


----------



## Doc (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> I don't put down the traditional arts. I have 3 traditional Instructors. But like in my other posts I stated that I teach my students to beat any system that I've learned.
> ...



Well, why should you be different. good luck.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  Don't misunderstand me. I understand the importance of preseving the old and I know that I can and do learn from Kata. But a realistic approach for the students of today is much differant than what most are actually doing. *



I think the problem is most people that teach and sing the praises of kata today dont understand kata well enough. 
Much of the so-called bunkai I see here in Japan as well as in the west is absolute crap.
As a result many if not all MMA people see that kind of teaching and think kata is uselss.and rightly so. If I didnt know better I would think the same thing.



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  Anybody can say so and so's rank isn't worth anything but mine is an "eclectic system" which really has nothing to do with traditionalism. I am actually putting back in "some"of the traditionalism. Structure is important and students who respect one another but at the same time they need to be modern day warriors. *



Structure is needed to a certain degree in anything humans do because it makes things more understandable and logical. We tend to disregard what doesnt make sense to us.
With out some sort of natural progression and order all we get are bits and pieces, which slows, if not stagnates, the learning process. 



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  IF YOU DON'T MIND. COULD YOU ENLIGHTEN ME ABOUT YOUR SYSTEM. DOES NOT MATTER IF IT IS NOT YOUR OWN. I JUST WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO I AM TALKING TO. I THINK IT IS FAIR SINCE YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT ME. *



To whom are you addressing this question?

If you are asking me there is a www under my user name and it should take you to my website. There you will find some links to other members in the same association as myself. 

If you want to see what we actually do here is a website for our dojo in Poland. This was a seminar so the techniques in the mpegs you will see are done rather slowly and were done for teaching and explanation purposes only. The actual techniques are done much quicker without any pauses. 

http://www.kempo.org.pl/ramka.html

Sorry, forgot it's in Polish.
You'll need to go to the section called "GALERIA" to see the mpegs.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Well, why should you be different. good luck. *



Why ask why??

In a confrontation are going to you react using the "actual' traditional techniques you were taught or are you going to adapt and modify as needed?


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I think the problem is most people that teach and sing the praises of kata today dont understand kata well enough.
> Much of the so-called bunkai I see here in Japan as well as in the west is absolute crap.
> As a result many if not all MMA people see that kind of teaching and think kata is uselss.and rightly so. If I didnt know better I would think the same thing.
> ...



Seriously you sound like your interpetation is the correct way so everybodies elses is wrong. I'm just giving you my opinion from your posts. I heard the song and dance too many times already. Nobody understands the Bunkai but I do.

But based on your "Historical Post" you must be a genius! What book did you "copy " it from? 

I put my real name out there and I want to know who you are!


----------



## chufeng (Feb 10, 2003)

> AKJA asked: In a confrontation are going to you react using the "actual' traditional techniques you were taught...?



Yes !!!

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Doc (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Why ask why??
> 
> In a confrontation are going to you react using the "actual' traditional techniques you were taught or are you going to adapt and modify as needed? *


If the question is for me, you're really asking the wrong person. I see you'e attempting to set yourself up here as an expert because you use the word "kenpo" in your distance video program, however as they say - "It ain't that kind of party."

Based on your site I don't think you know much about what most do here, and myself in particular am a student of Ed Parker's American Kenpo. I see I'm not the only one who picked up on your "vibe."

That lengthy post to advertise your teachings as well as your site, (that you really didn't mean for anyone to see) proposed no real questions therefore I answered none. If there is something specific to the art you would like to know, there are those here who would answer gladly. But I must be honest and tell you I am just not interested in the art you created. No slight, just not interested. I've seem them all. In fact, "Been there, done that, got a poster, a T-shirt, and an autographed picture."


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Why ask why??
> 
> In a confrontation are going to you react using the "actual' traditional techniques you were taught or are you going to adapt and modify as needed? *



"actual" traditional are what in your book?
Also, by the wording of your question its obvious you havent been exposed to actual traditional techniques done properly, because if you were you would have asked that question.


----------



## Doc (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I agree.
> 
> Which is why I am more wary of the guy that says "I am just a shodan" than the guy who claims to be a Soke .
> "The wise eagle hides it's claws" *



I've had the occasion to meet Oyate Sensei. I suspect YOUR Bunkai is just fine.

I'm sure you are as I am wary of the guy who has "studied" everything, put together his own system, and then wants to teach you by video.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  Seriously you sound like your interpetation is the correct way so everybodies elses is wrong. *



You are over reacting and taking what I said out of context.
I have seen a lot of good interpretations from Goju and Shorin Ryu people as well as others. 





> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  I'm just giving you my opinion from your posts. I heard the song and dance too many times already. Nobody understands the Bunkai but I do. *



Nope, never said that. 



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  But based on your "Historical Post" you must be a genius! What book did you "copy " it from? *



That info comes from several sources actually.



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *  I put my real name out there and I want to know who you are! *



If you would have taken 10 seconds and looked at the www icon under my user ID as I stated before it would have directed you to my webpage that has my name and other info.


Also, if you want to go off on a tangent about MMA vs xxxx blah, blah, blah start it somewhere else because this thread is not about that.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I've had the occasion to meet Oyate Sensei. I suspect YOUR Bunkai is just fine.
> 
> I'm sure you are as I am wary of the guy who has "studied" everything, put together his own system, and then wants to teach you by video. *




Needless to say I am not on the same level as Mr. Oyata, and most likely never will be.
However, I do find it interesting that even 8th~9th dans in Okinawan start taking notes when he is discussing technique/ bunkai. 
Nobody has all the answers to bunkai/technique, but I do believe Mr. Oyata is on the right track.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *If the question is for me, you're really asking the wrong person. I see you'e attempting to set yourself up here as an expert because you use the word "kenpo" in your distance video program, however as they say - "It ain't that kind of party."
> 
> Based on your site I don't think you know much about what most do here, and myself in particular am a student of Ed Parker's American Kenpo. I see I'm not the only one who picked up on your "vibe."
> ...



You're only half right about me!

My site really is far from finished thats why I took it out of my profile almost immediately after joining this place.

I am not a creator. My opinion there are no new techniques that haven't been seen sometime in the past. The only thiung new is our training methods, thats it.

I'm far from being "anybody" but I think I am a bit farther from being nobody.

I am just walking my path. I don't claim to teach "Kenpo" nor would I teach it. To many hand techniques that are to differant from my Jun Fan Gung-Fu underlying base.

Kenpo and Kempo are "general purpose" words. Since I'm walking a differant path of my Sifu, I can't rape his arts name. And in the same breath it no longer is just Jun Fan Gung-Fu or any one style of Jujitsu or karate.

Granted my methods are "modified" but it is the training methods which are differant and for me the end result.

BUT IT WAS A SIMPLE QUESTION! 

I WANT TO KNOW HOW WILL YOU REACT IN A REAL SITUATION?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *  If the question is for me, you're really asking the wrong person. I see you'e attempting to set yourself up here as an expert because you use the word "kenpo" in your distance video program, however as they say - "It ain't that kind of party." *




The first red flags for me with anyone that starts their own art is the misuse of Japanese/Chinese/Korean terms to describe different aspects of their art. 
They always seem to be anti-traditionalists and yet use traditional terms to describe what they do.
Kind of an oxymoron isnt it



> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *  Based on your site I don't think you know much about what most do here, and myself in particular am a student of Ed Parker's American Kenpo. I see I'm not the only one who picked up on your "vibe."
> That lengthy post to advertise your teachings as well as your site, (that you really didn't mean for anyone to see) proposed no real questions therefore I answered none. If there is something specific to the art you would like to know, there are those here who would answer gladly. But I must be honest and tell you I am just not interested in the art you created. No slight, just not interested. I've seem them all. In fact, "Been there, done that, got a poster, a T-shirt, and an autographed picture." *




I too have heard that moldy oldy record. You know the one that says I have developed something totally new and different, nobody on this plant has ever thought of the stuff I have, and thats what makes my new art so much better then the old traditional junk that is out there.
Funny thing is I see most the photos on these guys websites and can almost always tell you which traditional art/arts they have copiedrather poorly most of the time too I might add.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> I WANT TO KNOW HOW WILL YOU REACT IN A REAL SITUATION? *



Take your question over to the thread that is on that very subject.
Don't post it here.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

Since you guys are quick to judge my site (SERIOUSLY IF IT WAS READY FOR THE PUBLIC, IT WOULD BE IN THE SEARCH ENGINES AND I WOULD OF ACTIVATE THE PAYPAL ETC), heres some fuel for the fire.

My training methods are "functional"  and the "core" can be taught on a video format! No complete system can be taught in video fashion but a Shodan is not out of the question.

Realistic reactionary fighting methods for a real world.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Since you guys are quick to judge my site (SERIOUSLY IF IT WAS READY FOR THE PUBLIC, IT WOULD BE IN THE SEARCH ENGINES AND I WOULD OF ACTIVATE THE PAYPAL ETC),  *



I found it in 2 seconds with a Google search. 
Now, if you have something you want to say about the topic "Buying Dan rank over the Internet" feel free..........otherwise start your own thread.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

Sorry American Kenpo Buddy, but there are a couple of "your schoolmates" who are raping the video format.

You must no who thet are but one takes the cake. Steve sprys "Get your Kenpo Black Belt In One Year!!!

He's not the only one!!

At least I'm attemting t put out there realistic fighting that really works!!


----------



## Cthulhu (Feb 10, 2003)

Yoiks.  The topic of this thread is hoppin' around like a 2-year old with a full bladder.

I'll just hit a couple of points:

1)  Buying dan rank over the Internet in another style is just stupid.  Stupid.  Stupid.  The only reason I can see to do this is to defraud others.

2)  I didn't pay a single penny for my test or my black belt.  All my belt tests up to black were $20 a pop, regardless of what I was testing for (ie, no increase in testing fees as rank got higher).  However, I paid zero for the black belt test.  My instructor even bought me a very nice belt that I pain zilch for.

3)  Sokeship.  That term alone sounds ridiculous.  How can someone else give you an inheritance?  'Soke' does not mean founder or grandmaster.  It just indicates the fella that was left with the system.  You don't buy that and someone else outside the system can't give it to you.  If you create your own system, you are not the soke of that system, since you don't inherit stuff from yourself.  The way it's done in the U.S. by these 'sokeship' (puke) granting organizations is a joke.  Just send them enough money and some phoney certificates, and you too can be a 10th degree chainbelt in 'I Take Yu Do'.

4)  I've always thought Gogen Yamaguchi's claims about killing a tiger were more than a little farfetched.

5)  Urban's book is...interesting.  I'm sorry, but I've never heard of a 7-foot Okinawan.  Closest I've seen is my younger brother, who is a little over 6' and not full-blood Okinawan.

6) S'mores are tasty.

Cthulhu


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

Heres some fuel for the fire by some "supposed" well respected types:

http://stevespry.com/

http://www.adrianroman.com/

There is one in art in particular that has taken the heat for producing the 2 year black belt.

Well I just directed you to the 1 year black belt. See for yourself.


I TEACH "GENDAI BUJUTSU" , I DON'T TEACH TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS EXCEPT TO MY FAMILY WHO ALSO ARE STUDENTS OF MY INSTRUCTORS WITH MY INSTRUCTORS CONSENT!

If a student wishes to go the traditional route also, if my instructors approve it then OK, but other wise its pure Gendai Bujutsu which is a very effective and realistic method of training and execution!


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I found it in 2 seconds with a Google search.
> Now, if you have something you want to say about the topic "Buying Dan rank over the Internet" feel free..........otherwise start your own thread. *



I'm serious that I haven't put it in a search engines and I haven't complted my site, they have search engine placement but I haven't gone that far yet.

heres your link:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...Dan+rank+over+the+Internet&btnG=Google+Search
idon't see myself in there! send me the exact page linking me!

I'M NOT SELLING RANK!! I DON'T CHARGE ANYTHING TO THOSE WHO I TEACH. WHEN I DO CHARGE I SHOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP INT DOWN TO AROUND$40 IN A MARKET THAT IS EASILY $75.-80. AND IF YOUR A GRACIE YOU CAN GET $100, for 1 DAY a week AND NOT EVEN HAVE TO BE PRESENT.

I WANT TO SUPPLEMENT THROUGH TRAINING OUTSIDERS THATS ALL. IF YOU LOOK AT THE WORDING CLOSELY YOU WILL SEE THAT EVEN AN "ASSOCIATED BLACK BELT" HAS TO PROVE THEIR RANK. I WANT TO GROW AN ORGANIZATION. OF COURSE ITS NOT THE SAME AS BEING THERE IN PERSON, BUT THE SCHOOL STUDENTS WILL BENEFIT IN INSTRUCTION AND FINANCIALLY.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

You got it somewhere else. TELL THE TRUTH!!

YOU PUT MY SITE IN THIS THREAD. I DIDN'T GIVE IT TO YOU. YOUR MESSED UP!


----------



## Cthulhu (Feb 10, 2003)

Actually, you don't have to actually list your site with a search engine for it to appear in a search, though it certainly does help.

Cthulhu


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

I tried to find it in Google but I couldn't find it. I worded two differant ways too.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I found it in 2 seconds with a Google search.
> Now, if you have something you want to say about the topic "Buying Dan rank over the Internet" feel free..........otherwise start your own thread. *



The only way you can find my site at google is to type in scientific streetfighting SO IF YOU FOUND IN IT IN GOOGLE, YOU HAD TO KNOW ABOUT MY SITE IN THE FIRST PLACE. YOU HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING TO ASSOCIATE ME WITH "SCIENTIFIC STREETFIGHTING!

I don't know how it got there. But there is no association of me in there selling rank, dan rank martial art rank, nothing of the sort. 

I'M BEING SLANDERED BEFORE EVEN DOING ANYTHING. HAVEN'T SOLD ANYTHING, THERES NO WAY TO BUY ANYTHING FROM ME AT ALL!


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I TEACH "GENDAI BUJUTSU"*



Use whatever words you want.  _Gendai bujutsu_ simply means "modern (post WWII) martial arts," and unless the stuff you study has had extensive combat application (and I don't mean being a bouncer, or a few street fights, but fighting to the bitter end with only one person walking away), the _bu*jutsu*_ term could be lost entirely...

Regardless of the terms you use to attempt to qualify what you do, it still boils down to the same thing to folks who know what those terms really mean.



> *I DON'T TEACH TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS EXCEPT TO MY FAMILY WHO ALSO ARE STUDENTS OF MY INSTRUCTORS WITH MY INSTRUCTORS CONSENT!*



Correct me if my interpretation is wrong, but it seems that, with the orientation of your art and the way you say you present material, along with the tone you set when discussing traditional training, that you don't overly care for traditional methods.  Yet, traditional methods are good enough for your family?  I would think that of anyone, the ones closest to you would receive the lion's share of the best you had to offer.  And if the traditional stuff is the best you can offer your family, either they don't rate terribly highly, or traditional training is better than your "gendai bujutsu" and you are shorting your students of information...



> *If a student wishes to go the traditional route also, if my instructors approve it then OK, but other wise its pure Gendai Bujutsu which is a very effective and realistic method of training and execution! *



Again, the disparity in your comments is confusing...

Traditional is fine by you.  Good enough to keep your family members safe.  But you disapprove of traditional training enough that you felt it necessary to create something on your own that you feel is more "realistic?"  Your circular argument is starting to make me dizzy...

Back to the topic, you feel that you could validly prepare someone for black belt testing via video?  No in person instruction at all?  I'm sorry, but our lowest grades in Yiliquan couldn't learn even half their required material without an instructor to correct them.  Not because we are controlling, simply because there is that much detail to the instruction.  Perhaps what was said on another thread really is true, that the standards for what a black belt is supposed to be, know and do really do vary widely from one school to the next...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Use whatever words you want.  Gendai bujutsu simply means "modern (post WWII) martial arts," and unless the stuff you study has had extensive combat application (and I don't mean being a bouncer, or a few street fights, but fighting to the bitter end with only one person walking away), the bujutsu term could be lost entirely...
> 
> Regardless of the terms you use to attempt to qualify what you do, it still boils down to the same thing to folks who know what those terms really mean.
> ...



Sorry for the confushion.
I'm not certified to teach traditional martial arts. I have 3 traditional Instructors in 4 arts. This is my path for me. My family has been accepted by my 2 Karate instructors to be taught by me. This is not normal before certification.

Thats why in my site, theres no detail for the tradional systems. I can only advertise what I teach to the public.

Also I've been around enough to know the the old masters have a lot to offer us and I can't get enough. But whatever I learn becomes mine to with as I see fit. So if I modify, then I made it fit me.

But what I do is differant, didn't say better. Shodan is just the beginning. I'm not offering anybody a chance to get a high rank. But there are those who like myself who put in a lot of years in the arts and have had 1 & 2 year students pass them in rank and don't really know anything. I'm trying to grow an organization not sell certificates. This all leads to seminars and guidance from myself and my inner core.


----------



## Doc (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> BUT IT WAS A SIMPLE QUESTION!
> 
> I WANT TO KNOW HOW WILL YOU REACT IN A REAL SITUATION? *



Very well. Thank you for asking, I think.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Very well. Thank you for asking, I think. *


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Sorry, sometimes I am a man of little patience. My way is you push, I push a little harder.
> 
> My brother-in-law who is of my former Sensei, taught me that in sparring to teach me control. He being an ex-pro fighter was in total control while I was not. I learned and lived by it in all ways of my life. Believe me these "young bucks" these days think they are unstoppable and that attitude all around keeps them in check or at least they no better than to cross the line. *





No problem at all. Thanks for the apology.


----------



## jazkiljok (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Heres some fuel for the fire by some "supposed" well respected types:
> 
> http://stevespry.com/
> ...



"supposed" is the big operative word there- they've been toasted on the Kenpo forums already.

Like most arts- you can't stop folks in American Kenpo from doing stupid things.

Spry's been called a real dubious source since he self promoted himself way beyond his own instructor in Kenpo. He claims a mishmosh of arts to justify his rank and he never studied with Ed Parker.

No one ever heard of the other guy till he started his tape program.

they're considered huksters by most serious AKer's - is that who you want to be compared to?

peace:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *The only way you can find my site at google is to type in scientific streetfighting SO IF YOU FOUND IN IT IN GOOGLE, YOU HAD TO KNOW ABOUT MY SITE IN THE FIRST PLACE. YOU HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING TO ASSOCIATE ME WITH "SCIENTIFIC STREETFIGHTING!
> 
> I don't know how it got there. But there is no association of me in there selling rank, dan rank martial art rank, nothing of the sort.
> ...




Type in Atemi Kempo Jujitsu and you get this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q="Atemi+Kempo+Jujitsu"&btnG=Google+Search


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *"supposed" is the big operative word there- they've been toasted on the Kenpo forums already.
> 
> Like most arts- you can't stop folks in American Kenpo from doing stupid things.
> ...



No thats not what I want to be compared to. All I want to be compared to is that of other good instructors. I do have to look real hard at my site.

It should be seen more like just giving someone a chance to EARN something that may have eluded them in the past.

Im not trying to get rich although I wouldnt turn it down. I just want to supplement myself so that I could afford to do martial arts full time and have more time to train with my instructors and not have to charge my students the going rates.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Type in Atemi Kempo Jujitsu and you get this:
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q="Atemi+Kempo+Jujitsu"&btnG=Google+Search *



But I didn't give you the name Atemi Kempo Jujitsu. You got it from the website. So how did you know to type in "atemi?"

I DIDN'T PUT IT THERE, ITS THE TRUTH

FUNNY IT DOSEN'T COME UP IN YAHOO. ONLY GOOGLE IF YOU KNOW THE NAME I GAVE IT. BUT I DON'T REMBER GIVING YOU MY SYSTEMS NAME.

BE STRAIGHT WITH ME.  I'M GOING TO RE-WORK MY SITE TO CLARIFY THINGS!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Feb 10, 2003)

Its in your profile "Atemi Kempo Jujitsu Association "

Each search engine works differently, and inconsistantly.  Simply put (without the technical stuff) if its mentioned on your site either as a whole phrase, or as each word separetly, it might find you.

When I did a search on Google using the following : "Atemi Kempo Jujitsu" Association 
your site was the only one that came up.

You do not need to submit yourself to the search engines.  They constantly 'reach out' and check sites, starting at the registrars and working from there.  You may have been 'spidered' by 1, and then trickled out to the others as they constantly scan each other too.  

I've had several of my sites show up without me doing anything.

Hope that helps explain things a bit on the search enging side.


:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *But I didn't give you the name Atemi Kempo Jujitsu. You got it from the website. So how did you know to type in "atemi?"
> 
> I DIDN'T PUT IT THERE, ITS THE TRUTH
> ...





Bloody hell,   look at your own user profile under your user name on this BBs it's where YOU wrote it.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Bloody hell,   look at your own user profile under your user name on this BBs it's where YOU wrote it. *



All you had to say was you got it from my profile.

But I'm telling the truth that I didn'y submit it to any search engines.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Its in your profile "Atemi Kempo Jujitsu Association "
> 
> Each search engine works differently, and inconsistantly.  Simply put (without the technical stuff) if its mentioned on your site either as a whole phrase, or as each word separetly, it might find you.
> ...



that would explain it


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *All you had to say was you got it from my profile.
> 
> But I'm telling the truth that I didn'y submit it to any search engines. *




I thought that would have been painfully obvious from the start.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 10, 2003)

Sorry,
My head was a bit clogged today but I am going to make some changes before any online buisness happens.


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Sorry for the confushion.*



No problem.  That is the nice thing about polite posting - we can ask questions and get answers, and as long as everyone keeps their heads we can get answers in the end.



> *I'm not certified to teach traditional martial arts. I have 3 traditional Instructors in 4 arts. This is my path for me. My family has been accepted by my 2 Karate instructors to be taught by me. This is not normal before certification.*



So, what you are saying is that you are not certified to teach the arts from which you draw your training, yet you have created something "new" based on that training that you are teaching to others?

I don't intend this to be mean-spirited, but if you are not sufficiently well trained enough to teach the arts you have trained in, how can you believe you know them well enough to pass on the information or to judge if the method of its passing is in need of modification and change?



> *Thats why in my site, theres no detail for the tradional systems. I can only advertise what I teach to the public.*



See paragraph above.  How can you teach what you have created when you are not sufficiently well trained in the arts you have studied to be of a level to teach them?  It just seems to me that a person ought to have a good enough amount of time in an art before they go about deciding it needs to be changed somehow.  Brucie Lee did just that with Wing Chun - he wasn't with it long enough to learn enough of it to know what was missing and what wasn't.  His decisions were based on insufficient training and a spirit that wasn't sufficiently patient.

I don't know you, and I haven't seen what your skills are like.  It is entirely possible you possess sufficient knowledge and ability to be a fine teacher.  But without that knowledge, all I have to go on is what you have said thusfar, and you have indicated only a maximum of about 5 years or so in any given system.



> *Also I've been around enough to know the the old masters have a lot to offer us and I can't get enough. But whatever I learn becomes mine to with as I see fit. So if I modify, then I made it fit me.*



While there is something to be said for taking what you learn and making it your own, there is also something to be said for the validity of fitting yourself to the techinique instead of fitting the technique to you.  Modifying a technique is fine, so long as the modification is based not on a person's whimsy, but rather on necessity (i.e. injuries, physical limitations, etc., things that cannot be changed).  Changing a technique because it is too hard to do, or because it is uncomfortable or doesn't fit our body type well doesn't necessarily indicate a bug in the technique...



> *Shodan is just the beginning. I'm not offering anybody a chance to get a high rank. But there are those who like myself who put in a lot of years in the arts and have had 1 & 2 year students pass them in rank and don't really know anything.*



Sure enough, black belt _should_ be the real beginning of learning, but in many "modern" fly-by-night systems you have reached pretty much the end of the road.  In a good style, black belt is when you have racked up enough time doing the basics to be able to work with them to learn how they really work.  It would be like learning a foreign language - once you know enough words and grammar, you can begin learning how to hold a conversation.  Until then, however, you are just parroting phrases without a real understanding of what you are saying.



> *I'm trying to grow an organization not sell certificates. This all leads to seminars and guidance from myself and my inner core. *



Your goal is fine and admirable.  However the appearance your efforts gives is one that needs clarification to those who aren't aware of your desires at the outset.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng (Feb 10, 2003)

???



> Sorry,
> My head was a bit clogged today



Oh, well in that case...

Do you think that excuse would work in the operating room?

"Yeah, I know I cut out your son's right testicle when I planned on doing a hernia repair, but my head was "CLOGGY" today...I'm sure you'll understand..."

C'mon...

Why should the public expect anything less from their martial arts instructor, than they do from their surgeon?

When you go public, YOU are contracting with anyone who walks through your door to be honest...and to represent your art as best you can, and to NOT inflate your credentials...

Unless, of course, you are a McDojo...

So, I hope that helps to clarify the concerns others' have expressed...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## ace (Feb 10, 2003)

:redeme:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

i AlWaYs WeLcOmE yOuR eNlIgHtEnInG iNpUt aCe


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 10, 2003)

When I was younger, I had a real problem with people that claimed to know enough that they had "created" a "new" style of martial arts...

Usually they were mid-20something, with black belts in a half dozen different arts (with ranks between 2nd dan and 5th dan, averaging out around 3.5 dan), and their arts were, to the last, nothing more than blatant hybrids of the things they had studied before.

I knew one guy (who was a really nice person, and despite the way things ended up for him I still have a lot of respect for what he tried to accomplish) who had created his own unified blend...  The problem was that the blend was of RBWI and TKD, and it looked exactly like a poorly done blend of RBWI and TKD.

I am older now, and more tolerant of those who are trying to add to the whole of martial arts.  But I am reminded of a phrase from Jurassic Park 2 when Jeff Goldblum, questioning the thinking behind cloning, said something along the lines of "just because we can doesn't mean we should."  I feel the same about MA.  Sure, some teachers suck.  Their art is good, their skills are good, but they couldn't teach their way out of a box.  Does that mean their art needs modifying?  Nope.  Just that people need to learn how to reach students better.

So when a martial art appears to have problems in its developing fighters and their skills, perhaps it isn't the art at all, just the fact that the teacher more than likely has no training on how to teach whatsoever.

I'm not trying to attack akja at all.  In fact, I am motivating my posts toward him with a genuine desire to help him accomplish his goals.  By seeing how others perceive what he is doing, he will have the input of the public and will be able to put the proper face on what he is trying to do.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

I dont mind learning something new or different from other arts.
Its just guys that think they have reinvented the wheel or built a better mouse trap and claim that what they do is SO different and SO effective compared to traditional arts.when it actuality it is not.
Especially when they have little or no training in traditional arts to base their opinions on.


----------



## Cthulhu (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I dont mind learning something new or different from other arts.
> Its just guys that think they have reinvented the wheel or built a better mouse trap and claim that what they do is SO different and SO effective compared to traditional arts.when it actuality it is not.
> Especially when they have little or no training in traditional arts to base their opinions on. *



I use to spaz about this to, but not anymore.  There are far too many of them, and there are more every day.  With the exception of CMQ/D, I just ignore them unless specifically asked.

When one of them tries to show me something, it invariably doesn't work on me, I shrug and move on.  Life's too short and I've got a mess of training to do in the brief time I've got.   I'd rather do that than try to become the James Randi of the martial arts world.

:asian: 

Cthulhu


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I use to spaz about this to, but not anymore.  There are far too many of them, and there are more every day.  With the exception of CMQ/D, I just ignore them unless specifically asked.
> 
> When one of them tries to show me something, it invariably doesn't work on me, I shrug and move on.  Life's too short and I've got a mess of training to do in the brief time I've got.   I'd rather do that than try to become the James Randi of the martial arts world.
> ...




Good idea..........maybe I should follow that line of thinking.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *???
> 
> 
> ...



You think they don't make operating room mistakes. I used the word clogged meaning my profile was not on my mind, I really was trying to figure out how my site ended up on google.

Like I said I don't teach traditional arts but I am certified in American Combat Kempo which is rooted in the Oakland JKD school as is mine. 

Just how many years in "A" system does a person need? My art is not based on the traditional systems, its based on what I've learned but I've said all along that the techniques are JKD influenced. I've been in the arts off and on since 1973 and time and again I've put on a white belt. I wore a white belt for over 3 years in BJJ fixing my weak points. I've done more than a lot of people will ever get close to.

It just does not make sense to me. Why would someone need a certification in a traditional art in order to create a new art that is not traditional. One does not need the other, they are opposites. 

My Sifu that trained me in the Macias Method of Jun Fan Gung-Fu does not certify nor has he ever. But that does not mean I am not qualified.

Most everybody downline from Bruce Lee have something in common. They create new systems. Thats a part of JKD. Some use the name JKD and some don't. I don't because mine isn't truly JKd. I don't believe in "discarding what works for me."
I don't buy the "concept" I was trained in the "Art!"

I NEVER SAID MINE IS BETTER OR I'M RE-INVENTING THE WHEEL.
MINE IS MINE. "

YOU ALL KNOW IF IT AINT BROKE DON'T FIX IT."

WELL IT SEEMS LIKE HALF THE WORLD IS TRYING TO FIX IT.

THE OTHER HALF IS CONTENT, THATS FINE BUT THAT DOSEN'T MAKE A BETTER FIGHTER AND THATS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT!
HOW I TRAIN AND I TEACH THE WAY I TRAIN, I DON'T HOLD ANYTHING BACK!


----------



## Mike Clarke (Feb 11, 2003)

akja,
From what you say, you and I started training around the same time? But what I can't understand is this. How come you know enough to start your own system, and I'm still digging deeper into karate and finding new stuff all the time?
How come [with all the training and travelling I've done around the world] I've still got a long way to go, but you have mastered all sorts of arts and have developed your own?
How big is your brain and how wide is your experience in the fighting arts? I'm just asking [not insulting you]. And I'm asking because in my experience those who profess to 'know' something are usually the least well informed.
Still, I'm willing to accept that you might be the first to prove that particular formula wrong. So any information you could give regarding your acquisition of understanding and ability would be very welcome.

Mike.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *akja,
> From what you say, you and I started training around the same time? But what I can't understand is this. How come you know enough to start your own system, and I'm still digging deeper into karate and finding new stuff all the time?
> How come [with all the training and travelling I've done around the world] I've still got a long way to go, but you have mastered all sorts of arts and have developed your own?
> ...



I haven't mastered anything and haven't said I have. 
I've experienced  alot I've had a lot of Karate dating back to my first Kajukenbo  class in 1973. In my profile you see a lot of arts but 4 I am a student of right now. There are also other arts that I've been exposed to but I dropped out of because I was at the time not interested. I didn't add Judo, Aikido or Tae Kwon Do in there because I didn't feel right adding something that I only had a few months in. My profile is only was has had an influence on me or I am currently practicing.

Of course in any one martial art you should be able to learn forever, but thats not the way in turned out for me. My first Kajukenbo class shut down after a year or so, same thing with my Hapkido class which I too next. Then I went back to Kajukenbo and spent a few more years, all that between 1973 and 1980. 

During the "80's I tried to train but I had a "monkey on my back" and I spent several years incarcerated. for a whaile the arts left my body but they never left my mind. As it turned out my sister married a (at the time) a 4th degree black belt in the late "80's and he brought me back into the arts. Thats where I was exposed to Bujutsu Taiho, Kobujutsu, Judo, and Aikido. All of my brother-in-laws training came from Mr. Tarow Hayashi of Hayashis martial arts of El Paso, Texas. 

Things happen when your around your family to much, this time I left by my will as brown belt with a couple of apprentice instructor certificates. That I was not used to, all the paper, in the "70's, kyu ranks just didn't get them at least not in Hapkido or Kajukenbo.

For a couple of years out of respect to my brother in law I did not go to another school. When I was working out in Golds gym I met a guy and we talked about JKD. He took me to his Sifu, who became my Sifu that very first day when Sifu Felix Macias Jr. asked me to come back.

My "whole" thinking behind martial changed. At about the same time I started practicing Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and I realized "THAT FOR ME" I had discovered the best of both worlds. In BJJ its 10 years to black belt, the only people that have that kind of time are people who are 1 art students. My brother-in-law exposed me to multiple arts and classes in a single day, from then on I've been cross training and I always will.  I've put my time in. No one is system is the best, nor is any one fighter the best. But most systems "SAY" they are complete which is not true. Some are, most aren't. 

I am now and I will always look for more and I will not accept one Karate system as being complete, nor for me.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

So basically your art is composed of a lot of basic and medium ranged techniques aimed at what you have dubbed effective through personal experience?


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *So basically your art is composed of a lot of basic and medium ranged techniques aimed at what you have dubbed effective through personal experience? *



What is medium ranged?

I train all ranges. Separately and together. Nobody can have the best art, but we can try and improve using our own experiences.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

Well I am basically following Mike Clarke's line of thinking here. You havent been in one art since 1973. Just been in Martial Arts since 1973. So you don't have a whole world of depth or know moves that someone who holds a 5th, 6th, or 7th dan would know. You just know techniques up to a certain point in many arts. So when I say medium ranged I mean you're not a high ranking dan in any art so there fore you don't know the really powerful techniques. I'm not trying to offend you here at all. Sort of just thinking out loud.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

Techniques are not the focus. Instinct reactions are what is important. Thats the Jun Fan way. Techniques are just drills to learn by. You cant expect to be able to use techniques exactly like you learn them. Thats why you have to blend and use variations. I havent made up any new techniques, you guys dont seem to realize that.

Ive just applied what my Sifu has taught me in Jun Fan to my other arts, so it is mine.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

Well thats good but I never said you mnade up techniques. That was the entire point of my post that you don't teach *advanced* techniques.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

One art 10 arts. What does it matter? The techniques are not really traditional in the first place. Have you ever seen a JKD stance, or punch. What is mine is mine. A black belt in any traditional art would not put me any close to my end result. Its apples and oranges.

You guys really missed the boat.

Ita all advanced, you don't see it because your stuck in a traditional world.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> Ita all advanced, you don't see it because your stuck in a traditional world. *




If it aint broke dont fix it! And whats your point. Traditional and the new stuff is no differant besides the fact they've added a few bits here and there! What bout all the Amish who live without this and that, they have survived and they are traditional to the limit. Being stuck in a traditional world has nothing to do with him not seeing "it". If he chooses not to then its cool, but dont blame him cuz he belives in tradition.....:asian:


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

Yea I guess were all just a bunch of idiots using traditional time proven techniques that better us in many ways. We know that we'll be ok in a fight because were learning time honored arts from true sensei's. So who cares if we missed the boat. And well I hope what's yours works.


----------



## Doc (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *One art 10 arts. What does it matter? The techniques are not really traditional in the first place. Have you ever seen a JKD stance, or punch. What is mine is mine. A black belt in any traditional art would not put me any close to my end result. Its apples and oranges.
> 
> You guys really missed the boat.
> ...



Please let Mr. Jun Fan go. It's obvious he's too "advanced" for us here and I'm getting a headache trying to "get it."


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

Well said Doc.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Please let Mr. Jun Fan go. It's obvious he's too "advanced" for us here and I'm getting a headache trying to "get it." *



That came across rude and pretty stubborn...If your not interested dont bother reading anymore, no need for sarcasm.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

Good point. I retract my Well said Doc comment.


----------



## Doc (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *Good point. I retract my Well said Doc comment. *


Traitor! That was the shortest alliance I ever had. Personally I think Mr. Jun fan was the rude one. He's the one that basically called those heref alternately "stupid" and "outdated" as well as used the word "traditional" like it was a curse word. (I wonder why no one chastised him) I personally feel he's attempting to "sell" himself into the Bruce Lee lineage. But what do I know, I haven't spoken to Bruce in years.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

i agree with you man. But I just don't like the way your pulling it off. A tad bit more politeness and we can "renew our broken alliance". Lol.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Traitor! That was the shortest alliance I ever had. Personally I think Mr. Jun fan was the rude one. He's the one that basically called those heref alternately "stupid" and "outdated" as well as used the word "traditional" like it was a curse word. (I wonder why no one chastised him) I personally feel he's attempting to "sell" himself into the Bruce Lee lineage. But what do I know, I haven't spoken to Bruce in years. *



LOL, I have that affect on people, ask my parents  

And maybe he was rude, doesnt mean you have to be rude back. As the mods will tell you keep it friendly! Do that and you can slag him off all you want.....just do it a nice way


----------



## Doc (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *i agree with you man. But I just don't like the way your pulling it off. A tad bit more politeness and we can "renew our broken alliance". Lol. *


I apologize for seeing him for what he is - OK? I'll make up but -  no kisses!!!!


----------



## Kirk (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *LOL, I have that affect on people, ask my parents
> 
> And maybe he was rude, doesnt mean you have to be rude back. As the mods will tell you keep it friendly! Do that and you can slag him off all you want.....just do it a nice way  *




Go easy on the Doc, MOB.  1) he's old    2) he's been on the
mat with Bruce 3) he's old


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

Heh. Sounds good.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Go easy on the Doc, MOB.  1) he's old    2) he's been on the
> mat with Bruce 3) he's old  *



Okay okay......I'll go easy on him, I'm doing the Mods job anyway lol! Just trying to give you guys a break. And you know whats funnier! He actually listened :rofl:


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

YOU GUYS ARE PICKING ME APART TO PIECES.

YOU SAY MY TECHNIQUE IS NOT ADVANCED OF COURSE i'M GOING TO SAY ITS ALL ADVANCED.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 11, 2003)

I mean yes we are, but were just stating our opinions. Care to correct us? And using caps doesnt go well it seems too third gradish like you don't know better or something.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

We all have our own opinions. Obviously I'm out numbered here. But there are a lot of people in the world that think like I do. 

I try to not pick on the arts and there are a lot of arts out there that are known for being shady.

I didn't just get my feet steeped on, I got foot stomped.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *I mean yes we are, but were just stating our opinions. Care to correct us? And using caps doesnt go well it seems too third gradish like you don't know better or something. *



Now now, that wasnt nice.........And I dont like to think of it as taking apart, more just making you see the full picture that we are meant to be seeing. 



> I try to not pick on the arts and there are a lot of arts out there that are known for being shady.



If your gonna say that then pick on the shady ones......not traditional ones!


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

I have 3 traditional Instructors in 4 arts. i'm always going to reach out to learn. My own personal way is just my own brand so to speak. And i thought I was the one getting picked on.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I have 3 traditional Instructors in 4 arts. i'm always going to reach out to learn. My own personal way is just my own brand so to speak. And i thought I was the one getting picked on. *



I dunno, God Im not a school teacher! I dont care who was picking on who!!!!! I was just saying dont feel like everyones picking on you cuz they have differant views lol Thats the way this board works and we like it that way


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *I dunno, God Im not a school teacher! I dont care who was picking on who!!!!! I was just saying dont feel like everyones picking on you cuz they have differant views lol Thats the way this board works and we like it that way  *


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 11, 2003)

LOL, take it you agree then :asian: Wow I am good! :rofl:


----------



## chufeng (Feb 11, 2003)

> But there are a lot of people in the world that think like I do.



According to the survey, I'd say about 8% of those people who practice martial arts and who post on this kind of web-site...

That's not "a lot"... but it is certainly more than I'd like to see...

Remember this is a thread on buying dan rank over the internet.

...and yes, there are accidents in the operating room...and most people have a way of recovering losses due to those mishaps...
I can't say that that is true of the martial arts...it seems more like "buyer beware."

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Mike Clarke (Feb 12, 2003)

ajka,

Thanks for your explination, I think I understand where you're coming from regarding your 'feelings' for the martial arts?

I only have a problem with the way some people think that once they learn some techniques, they then 'understand' the system.
As many systems blend together at some level, they also have a tendency to contradict each other in the early stages.
If a person stops training in a particular art after only a few years, they may well have a slightly confussed view of what it was they were working towards.

In my experience, those who walk a little way along lots of different paths, almost always end up lost. Before ten years of karate training my understanding was fixed. In the second decade my understanding became less fixed, and now as I close the third decade my understanding of what karate is has become even more fluid.

I doubt I could have come to this kind of insight after only a few years of training. I know also that there is more to come, all I have to do is work towards it. The tradition of traditional martial arts is not just the techniques used in any one 'style', but the attitude and mind-set of those training in that style. Without that I don't think a person can be said to be 'traditional'.

I've had a "Monkey on my back" too for a little while so please don't think I'm comming at you from the point of view of someone who hasn't had to 'face up' for real from time to time.
Going long is never as rewarding as going deep.

Regards,
Mike.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Remember this is a thread on buying dan rank over the internet.
> 
> ...and yes, there are accidents in the operating room...and most people have a way of recovering losses due to those mishaps...
> ...



Continuing along those lines.would you get an operation from someone that got there medical license over the Internet???


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

No matter where we go in the martial arts we are to continue learning at to be one with ourselves. Styles systems who cares. i don't claim to have a new style. Styles withstand the test of time. I have a system. A system that is "functional," and people that are not directly a part of the JKD community. point blank are not qualified to say anything at all! Thats the truth. My pah is mine, yours is yours. I haven't asked anybodies credentials at all!

My credentials go beyond "paper" I Can Fight!


Shinjin, you seem to be level headed, thanx for your positive input!


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *No matter where we go in the martial arts we are to continue learning at to be one with ourselves.*



True enough.



> *Styles systems who cares. i don't claim to have a new style. Styles withstand the test of time. I have a system.*



First you say who cares about styles or systems, then you say you aren't making claims to teaching something new, followed by a comment about styles being tested by their durability, then you try to differentiate between the two and say you don't have a style, but a system...

Again, you confuse me... 

Styles are unique methods of applying a system, i.e. Goju-ryu and Isshin-ryu are styles of karate; Oakland and Seattle era JKD are styles of JKD; Doce Pares and Pekiti-Tirsia are styles of Arnis.  At least this is how I try to keep the terms separate in my head, since they get mixed up quite a bit.  So using this kind of definition, what is it you have?



> *A system that is "functional,"*



This kind of comment is what gets interpreted as your implication that other systems/styles are "non-functional."  If what you do is different from other styles, and you use its "functional" nature as a method by which you differentiate your method from others, you infer that other methods are "non-functional."  I think that sits poorly with some folks, whether what they do is functional or not...



> *and people that are not directly a part of the JKD community. point blank are not qualified to say anything at all! Thats the truth. My pah is mine, yours is yours. I haven't asked anybodies credentials at all!*



The problem, though, is that you are presenting yourself to the public as some sort of authority, whatever it may be you are an authority in.  Presenting yourself to the public as a teacher implies you are of sufficient authority in something to teach it, therefore an authority of some sort in whatever you are claiming to teach.  You should expect folks to question your credentials if you do this.

Perhaps you are correct, that it takes a JKD person to judge a JKD person, but with the political infighting that exists within the JKD community as perceived by someone _outside_ the JKD community, I doubt very highly that any two people could agree on what JKD is supposed to be.  Especially so since Brucie said flatly that it wasn't supposed to be able to be defined, wasn't supposed to be a style or system, just a way of thinking...



> *My credentials go beyond "paper" I Can Fight!*



But that won't be enough to qualify what you do to the public.  No paper, no respect.  While I admit that the boxing community has done without rankings like martial arts have, they still provide evidence of their training by demonstrating what they can do while in the ring, accumulating wins, and staying with certain trainers for long periods of time.  But the "credentials" of a boxing coach come from his accumulation of wins and trophies, which serve the same purpose as teaching certifications in MA styles...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> 
> Shinjin, you seem to be level headed, thanx for your positive input! *



Dont say that! Makes us seem like you think the rest of us arent.......:shrug:


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

I've been certified within the JKD community. You guys really do misunderstand modern martial arts. Yiliquan, I am certified! And you being a practitioner of a relatively NEW art should understand the obstacles of "qualifications." 

Paper is paper. I have it too! You just need to understand the mentality  and the terminology that goes with an art, in this case JKD, which I AM QUALIFIED to teach. "Functional" has become a common word in describing JKD, you will here it quite a bit.

Stating that I have a system that is functional is just saying that I feel it is a well rounded martial art system. I'm not worried nor do I care what someone who I don't know will interpet the individual words that I use.

In my opinion your art is to new to be considered a style, but I refrained from asking you your rank, how your style came to be. Based on the "mentality" in here, anything that was founded by an American can't be traditional. So what have you?

Its pointless to even continue along these lines.
I am qualified by my peers! What else is there to understand?


----------



## Mike Clarke (Feb 12, 2003)

akja,

Martial arts are about 'not fighting' that's the point I'm trying to make here. If you don't stay in an art long enough you never get to that, you just continue to learn fighting techniques.
I agree that a system should be 'martial' but it should also teach the 'art' of living, and this is the part I feel people who take your approach to training miss out on.

And by the way. I don't think it does your cause any good loosing it with some folk who differ with you. I've done it myself, but it serves no good purpose. You should be 'big' enough to retract some of the things you've said and continue on with the conversation.

Mike.


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 12, 2003)

No need to shout...

While the incarnation of Yiliquan as it is taught today only dates back to '82, it is essentially a reorganized version of Baixingquan, which dates back about 200 years or so...  If you want, I can provide you (and anyone else) with a list of the lineage.

So sure, it is "new" from one standpoint.

Certification in Yiliquan comes from adhering to very strictly enforced standards, both of quality of skill and quantity of knowledge.  Does JKD have a list of required learning to grade to a particular level?  Yili does, and the list is quite extensive.  We don't concern ourselves with proving ourselves to others, but when they come calling we simply pop out our testing requirements, demonstrate what we do, and they go away.  While I understand what you were trying to say when you said:



> Yiliquan, I am certified! And you being a practitioner of a relatively NEW art should understand the obstacles of "qualifications."



...it remains that our qualifications can be demonstrated both on paper as well as on the mat.  You indicated that you avoided all paper documentation and that your skill was enough.  Others replied that skill was not necessarily all there is to it.

As for "functional" being a word used within JKD to mean "well rounded,"  I would offer that "functional" means "it works," while "well rounded" means "it addresses multiple ranges and situations of combat."  They are not necessarily synonymous terms.

And who said that an American can't create something traditional?  I have yet to hear anyone criticize Ed Parker, or Wally Jay for what they created...  The difference is that they had proof of their training, and their proof included advanced level training in something else (supporting their claims of sufficient knowledge from those other training sources to allow them to be well versed enough to create something new).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

Shinjin, you are right but the lenth of time I spent in traditional Karate is no consequece because I am not teaching those arts. i am only teaching what I am qualified to teach. And even if I left one of those systems early does not matter either because I've never stopped growing as a martial artist. Since clearing up in few things in the "80's I've never stopped training. 

And I was attacked pretty viciously. Not only my credentials but my integrety was trashed. I've never submitted my website to a search engine but it found its way to google mysteriously. They took my site and insinuated that I was trying to sell certificates. Then one of them even implied he wanted to tear into me.

I had 3 of them coming at me and all 3 of them were judging me about something that they had no buisness judging me in.

My Sifu is a fighter and if you walk through the door and talk any caca, then its on. Its no differant for me. But If I got beat, I am man enough to bow down. But to attack ones integrety online is no better than walking through my door and talking the same caca.

There is much to learn for ALL OF US.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

Yiliquan,
I have proof too. I submitted it to my peers proving where I was trained and what I've done since along with all the rest of my martial history. What you are not accepting is the fact the someone with a similar lineage can actually certify me. By the way they have been around since 1992, doing just that.

I didn't indicate that I didn't have paper documentation. You guys went to my site and from my stand point declared me a fraud. If I said your organization is not legitimate, what right would I have to say that? And how much weight would my words carry?

By the way I clarified my homepage. 

And if you go back to my site. go to my Sifu/Sigung page and click on the article that is in .pdf format. It an article that was published in Jeet Kune Do magazine about my teachers.


----------



## D.Cobb (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Traitor! That was the shortest alliance I ever had. Personally I think Mr. Jun fan was the rude one. He's the one that basically called those heref alternately "stupid" and "outdated" as well as used the word "traditional" like it was a curse word. (I wonder why no one chastised him) I personally feel he's attempting to "sell" himself into the Bruce Lee lineage. But what do I know, I haven't spoken to Bruce in years. *



For what it's worth Doc, I reckon you are right! And even if you are wrong, I'll still say you are right. Man, that SL4 stuff scares the bejazus out of me! 

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## Disco (Feb 13, 2003)

Back to the original question - Buying rank

In today's world, there's no need to go and buy rank. Just go to a print shop or your own computer and "WHAM,BANG.POW" Hey! I'm Bruce Lee. There will always be disreputable people in society.
Just remember the Roman phrase "Caveat Emptor", Buyer Beware
And just for the record, I'm sure we have all encountered reputable people (with proper documentation) within the arts that have disreputable attitudes and practices. I will always remember this saying from a very wise man; " If you believe you are right, then proceed with total conviction. But if you are wrong, your actions will bury you". 

Now off the subject: In this time of global unrest and danger. I wish my ALL my brothers and sisters in the Martial Arts long life, knowledge and most of all Peace.


----------



## A.R.K. (Feb 13, 2003)

*Now off the subject: In this time of global unrest and danger. I wish my ALL my brothers and sisters in the Martial Arts long life, knowledge and most of all Peace.* 

Amen.


----------



## Doc (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *For what it's worth Doc, I reckon you are right! And even if you are wrong, I'll still say you are right. Man, that SL4 stuff scares the bejazus out of me!
> 
> --Dave
> ...



Thanks for the props, but I feel the same as you. Every day a little bit of growth.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Traitor! That was the shortest alliance I ever had. Personally I think Mr. Jun fan was the rude one. He's the one that basically called those heref alternately "stupid" and "outdated" as well as used the word "traditional" like it was a curse word. (I wonder why no one chastised him) I personally feel he's attempting to "sell" himself into the Bruce Lee lineage. But what do I know, I haven't spoken to Bruce in years. *



HEY DOC,

Whats with the "sell the Bruce Lee Lineage stuff. At the level that you are you should no better than to make a statement like that.

First, these guys went to my website, which I didn't give them and they tried to dispute everthing about me. I felt that I was being called a fraud and that they thought I was just out to sell certificates. Everytime I tried to answer anything someone else jumped and came at me from another direction.

If you are one of the ones that went to my site, then you should of read my Sifus and Sigungs story which was published in the June 2002 issue of Jeet Kune Do Magazine. My training and lineage is legitimate. All the heat came at me because I'm honest enough to tell the truth on my site and in here. My "martial talk peers" just don't accept the fact that if you train under someone and they do not give out certifications, then yes it is OK to go to someone of the same style or system or school lineage as I did to be evaluated. 

I'm not trying to rehash anything. Nothing said can take away from ones abilities. But since the topic was about "the paperwork", I have a question since you come from Ed Parker Lineage.

Do you know who promoted Ed Parker to 8th Degree?
Hint: He was a 5th Degree under William Chow before Ed Parker received his 1st degree.

I ask this because its just more controversy. Why would he be certified 8th degree from the founder of Kajukenbo, Adriano Emperado, when William Chow didn't die until the '80's.

It seems no lineage is void from controversy.


----------



## sweeper (Feb 14, 2003)

hmm..  Akja as someone who practices JKD I have some questions for you, Now before I start I would like to say I don't mean these to sound like attacks (with the way this thred has gone I don't want you to mis interpret my questions) just simply quesitons.

Now I don't realy know anything about how you teach, I was wondering why you chose the japanese rank names, do you speak japanese.do you teach it to your students? Reason I asked is it seemed from your web site that there is a realy heavy JKD influence (for example all the lineage was through JKD people/wing chun people)

Also, You say that everyone following bruce lee has created a seperate system, what do you mean by this? Could you please elaborate on this?

And last, I practice JKD, If your art is predominantly JKD there are some things I just don't understand how you could grade/teach via video. For example all the energy stuff wouldn't work, and application is a big part, how could you grade someone's sparring capability via video? Their timming, their power, you could make sure they are mechanicly sound but there's alot more than that. Now Again I just want to say I don't mean to sound like you are wrong, I just want to know how you do things.


----------



## sweeper (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *Well I am basically following Mike Clarke's line of thinking here. You havent been in one art since 1973. Just been in Martial Arts since 1973. So you don't have a whole world of depth or know moves that someone who holds a 5th, 6th, or 7th dan would know. You just know techniques up to a certain point in many arts. So when I say medium ranged I mean you're not a high ranking dan in any art so there fore you don't know the really powerful techniques. I'm not trying to offend you here at all. Sort of just thinking out loud. *





> *Well thats good but I never said you mnade up techniques. That was the entire point of my post that you don't teach *advanced* techniques.*



What do you consider advanced techniques? What do you mean by the really powerfull techniques?

reason I ask is because in JKD the technique body doesn't realy increase after a point, it's all up front, what changes is your ability to use those techniques, also most people in JKD don't realy have an Dan ranks or equivalant, after full instructor there are senior instructors, but that's it. People tend to judge based more on time in the art, lineage and above all, skill.


----------



## Mike Clarke (Feb 14, 2003)

Just for the record.

I don't believe there is such a thing as 'advanced' techniques.
There are people who have an advanced undersatnding of their art, and those who don't, but the techniques are the same for everyone.

The way I do a kata and the way my students do the same kata differs only because I have a deeper 'feeling' for what I'm doing. In that way I guess you could say the kata is different?
The techniques however are exactly the same for all of us in my dojo.

akja,
I've been there too, it's not nice, but how we deal with it is the hallmark of our progress. I can't remember how many times people have called my linage and ability in to question over the years. No one has yet done so in my dojo, or even to my face, but even if they did, what!!!!
Would I prove them wrong with a Manchester Kiss [explination ; Manchester = my home town in England, Kiss = a head but to the mouth]. No, I don't think so.
If you can, let it go. But before you do, look back over your posts and see if your wording might not have lead people to believe you were saying things that maybe you didn't mean?
Once the words start to fly [like punches and kicks] they're hard to stop.

Mike.


----------



## Shinzu (Feb 14, 2003)

in my opinion there are advanced techniques.  some techniques are not meant for lower ranking students.  you wouldn't teach a white belt hoe to do a jump spinning back kick when he has yet to learn a back kick right?

the greater the knowledge, the better the skill, the more advanced your techniques become.  sure they might all be techniques, but they are all not for the beginner.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> *hmm..  Akja as someone who practices JKD I have some questions for you, Now before I start I would like to say I don't mean these to sound like attacks (with the way this thred has gone I don't want you to mis interpret my questions) just simply quesitons.
> 
> Now I don't realy know anything about how you teach, I was wondering why you chose the japanese rank names, do you speak japanese.do you teach it to your students? Reason I asked is it seemed from your web site that there is a realy heavy JKD influence (for example all the lineage was through JKD people/wing chun people)
> ...



First, nothing is set in place yet, videos are not complete and I'm not advertising or anything of the sort. Everything on my site is what I'm working on. I'm concentrating on my group together we are going to grow our organization including bringing up fighters for the cage fights. I have one now, who has a ays to go, but that is his goal, as is my nephews.

Second, you read it wrong. My art is technique influenced only! The Kempo systems are basic technique compared to the whole JKD process. I'm not teaching the JKD process to anyone. If someone really wants to through the hole process of JKD, I send them to my Sifu who lives in a neighboring city. Although I will teach all that I know in regards to JKD to those who want it and deserve it. Meaning Bruce wanted small groups only. I think now that I see why. But the real reason is for the benefit of the student. What I offer them is the chance to learn from the source!

Also all the JKD systems are new systems. If they are not the original system, then they are new systems.  Perhaps they share the same name, but we all know that no 2 JKD systems are the same, so they are all new systems. 

While I was training with my Sifu he stressed that he believed all of JKD to be watered down and he disliked the name. After I left training with my Sifu I began calling my art Kempo Bujutsu. This process of mine goes back to about to 2000. The factors are I was told repeatedly by my Sifu that he did not not want his art to be "mixed up" and resemble JKD Concepts. Thats not what he teaches and he did not want to his art to be lost. I promised him I would not teach his art in that fashion and I don't don't. 

I don't speak Japanese nor would I expect a student to learn to speak something that I have no intention of learning. The techniques do not have Japanese terminology. Although some of te grappling has Japanese terminology and most of the world uses it, we all see it and hear it. There is nothing wrong with a student learning it, but it would have nothing to do their evaluation. 

Now Gary Dill was a student in the Oakland JKD school and he was the first to create a Kempo system from the JKD. He created Bushido Kempo, it uses the Kyu and Dan ranking structure. You have to realize that this is easiest ranking structure to use and we do where Jujitsu Gis. To learn the grappling you have to learn the techniques completely. And that is something that I do that I don't see in JKD. In JKD they usually incorporate BJJ separately as an art and offer it that way, probably out of respect to those that teach it to them. Then they incorporate the technique that they feel will mix well into their JKD. 

I don't teach BJJ at all, I teach what I've learned from BJJ in my Kempo Jujitsu class as part of the curriculum. We focus on all the grappling positions, from the positions the finishing moves will come, but the focus is on the positions. In JKD if you practice what I just explained, then you just through out some of te original concepts simplicity, closest weapon to the closest target. There are more but BJJ does not fit with the concepts although as separate arts they compliment themselves excellently.

Back to Gary Dill and his Bushido Kempo which is an "open ended" system. Gary Dill created this concept of an open ended system. The open ended system is meant to be modified by its practioners to fit themselves. If you modify the art is OK to change the name as did Carter Hargrave who Gary Dill Certified in JKD and Bushido Kempo. Carter created American Combat Kempo which again is an open ended system.

When I sent my training tapes of myself and my Sifu to Carter, I told him my intentions that I wanted to establish what I teach as a system. He reviewed my training and promoted me to Full Instructor in JKD and 5th Dan in his American Combat Kempo explaining that I was well enough qualified. These Kempo Systems are not advanced in regards to JKD, but they are advanced in the regards to the way a martial artists thinks. I have been given permission to build my system from his system, using as a base. 

Bushido Kempo, American Combat Kempo amd Atemi Kempo Jujitsu all come from the teachings of the Oakland JKD school but they are all slightly differant from our own individual contributions.

I really do understand what you are trying to say. And I totally 100% respect that because unlike most of the others, you speak from first hand experience.

Now my system, there is basic technique and more advanced technique. This is something that most people don't understand.

I know what I expect from my students and some based on their experience may judged differantly. But lets discuss the video tape grading.

The first test. There are 2 tapes. The test is on the first tape. because I know what I expect from someone at that level. But if someone thinks they can skip the second tape and move on, it won't happen. The second tape takes you deeper into the art at each level.

So at test 2 if the student does not learn all the material in both tapes, there will not be able to pass test 2 if they only learn tapes 1 of both levels. You see where this is going. There is alot of material to learn and I do know how to judge what I teach. As far as the Jun Fan Gung-Fu that I learned, I have it on video. My Sifu started filming after I had about 5 or 6 months in. He wanted me to see my progression over time, so we taped every 2 or 3 months and this went on for over 2 years. So that alone shows me where I was at differant levels of my training.

My system is 65% standup and 35% groundgrappling and as I state on my site is technically not JKD but is technique influenced from JKD. Big differance.

Also we've established my system is not JKD and it draws from any and all of my experience. Going back over time 2/3 of my training was in Karate. The Kyu and Dan ranking is appropriate. Also the ranking structure is meant to be universal because we have in the works adding more systems within the Association we are building. And the reason for universal is because I've been there, I know that there are many differant reasons for a student to changes systems. I've put on a white belt time and time again. I've "sparred" and "rolled" with many people who even if their lives depended on it, in reality couldn't touch me. In in these classes, they were my seniors. 

But I think that if they do switch arts, which I'm not encouraging, they should not have to go back to white belt as long as they know that they cannot promote until they have caught up tp their rank and exceeded it. But this is for the future as we are not teaching anything at this time except American Combat Kempo and Atemi Kempo Jujitsu.


----------



## jazkiljok (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *First, nothing is set in place yet, videos are not complete and I'm not advertising or anything of the sort. Everything on my site is what I'm working on. I'm concentrating on my group together we are going to grow our organization including bringing up fighters for the cage fights. I have one now, who has a ays to go, but that is his goal, as is my nephews.*



so you essentially teach sports fighting?



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> Second, you read it wrong. My art is technique influenced only! The Kempo systems are basic technique compared to the whole JKD process. I'm not teaching the JKD process to anyone. If someone really wants to through the hole process of JKD, I send them to my Sifu who lives in a neighboring city. Although I will teach all that I know in regards to JKD to those who want it and deserve it. Meaning Bruce wanted small groups only. I think now that I see why. But the real reason is for the benefit of the student. What I offer them is the chance to learn from the source!
> *



ok so you're just being Bruce on this but i have no idea what Kempo systems being "basic technique compared to JKD" means-- which Kempo systems? yours? your teachers?



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> Also all the JKD systems are new systems. If they are not the original system, then they are new systems.  Perhaps they share the same name, but we all know that no 2 JKD systems are the same, so they are all new systems.
> *



sure-- JKD is conceptual training but some one has to have some fundamentals to back the concepts up-- there be JKD's rub- it's reliant on the background in "traditional" styles of the teacher to make it make a hill of beans of sense and purpose. Inosanto doesn't teach JKD, cause from what i gather he's tried to say in the past, is that it doesn't exist without some arts to apply to it.



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> While I was training with my Sifu he stressed that he believed all of JKD to be watered down and he disliked the name.
> *



I'm sure his own JKD teacher would be impressed to learn that.
but watered down from what? did you ever check out Bruce Lee's self defense books? whatever Bruce had going before his death- he was obviously seeking out better stuff- read Joe Lewis's interview where Bruce keeps sending him out to "steal" others' material. 



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> After I left training with my Sifu I began calling my art Kempo Bujutsu. This process of mine goes back to about to 2000. The factors are I was told repeatedly by my Sifu that he did not not want his art to be "mixed up" and resemble JKD Concepts. Thats not what he teaches and he did not want to his art to be lost. I promised him I would not teach his art in that fashion and I don't don't. *



well, that's one odd way to carry on a lineage- he says he doesn't  want his art to be lost or messed with by adding/mixing even more stuff they he himself already had done- and you accomplish this by NOT teaching it at all.  bravo.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> Now Gary Dill was a student in the Oakland JKD school and he was the first to create a Kempo system from the JKD. He created Bushido Kempo, it uses the Kyu and Dan ranking structure. You have to realize that this is easiest ranking structure to use and we do where Jujitsu Gis. To learn the grappling you have to learn the techniques completely. And that is something that I do that I don't see in JKD. In JKD they usually incorporate BJJ separately as an art and offer it that way, probably out of respect to those that teach it to them. Then they incorporate the technique that they feel will mix well into their JKD. *



this statement makes no sense - creating a Kempo system from JKD is meaningless --all he did is create a name- Kempo is a generic term for asian martial arts with Okinawan roots or influence (ok- there's more to it but i'm trying to be short).  go Dill's  website though and we find JKD IN BIG BRIGHT LIGHTS and some rather small print type thing about Bushido Kempo and him being a CERTIFIED grandmaster- meaning exactly what, considering he created the system?- then of course read further about JKD there- notice how it already does all the things the his NEW Kempo system also claims? it's confusing and contradictory.

and this is the confusion around JKD- it's conceptual; there is no system- you take your past/current styles and training and apply the concepts- you add freely to what works for you-- prob is that all you get in the end is 1000s of NEW systems as you rightfully note-and it's all personal interpretations and preferences of an amalgamation of different arts with guys who if they attempt to teach those arts in their pure form would have dubious qualifications to do so. 



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> I don't teach BJJ at all, I teach what I've learned from BJJ in my Kempo Jujitsu class as part of the curriculum. We focus on all the grappling positions, from the positions the finishing moves will come, but the focus is on the positions. In JKD if you practice what I just explained, then you just through out some of te original concepts simplicity, closest weapon to the closest target. There are more but BJJ does not fit with the concepts although as separate arts they compliment themselves excellently.
> *



well, i'm sure Royce will be happy to hear you don't teach BJJ- but JKD folks having been claiming they do grappling for years- but now they discover their grappling sucks compared to BJJ, so what do they do?-- well they learn BJJ (yeah-inosanto too!)-- which is my exact point- some 5 lessons from Gene LaBell didnt' give Bruce a foundation to claim any real grappling skills yet all his all former students (and more keep on coming out of the woodwork) run around broadcasting how good their skills in this area are when in fact they eventually have to go train seriously with some one who really has taken the time to master an art like Jiu Jitsu. the concept you speak of also had nothing to do with grappling in the first place so it's a bad example of the point you wanted to make.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> Back to Gary Dill and his Bushido Kempo which is an "open ended" system. Gary Dill created this concept of an open ended system. The open ended system is meant to be modified by its practioners to fit themselves. If you modify the art is OK to change the name as did Carter Hargrave who Gary Dill Certified in JKD and Bushido Kempo. Carter created American Combat Kempo which again is an open ended system.*




uh- so JKD is a close system now?- maybe one day it's open; next close?  whatever. this again is the problem with conceptual based martial arts training- it's a giant nebulous plasma that you can shape to mean anything you want it to.




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> When I sent my training tapes of myself and my Sifu to Carter, I told him my intentions that I wanted to establish what I teach as a system. He reviewed my training and promoted me to Full Instructor in JKD and 5th Dan in his American Combat Kempo explaining that I was well enough qualified. These Kempo Systems are not advanced in regards to JKD, but they are advanced in the regards to the way a martial artists thinks. I have been given permission to build my system from his system, using as a base.*




sad really- it's like a condemantion on each preceding teacher that their system wasn't good enough to be carried on in its purity but always needs so MUCH work that it actually calls for a name  and system change.  All you're really saying is whatever you got from your sifu and whatever he got from his- was limited and you have better ideas on Martial Arts/Self Defense training then they did.





> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> Bushido Kempo, American Combat Kempo amd Atemi Kempo Jujitsu all come from the teachings of the Oakland JKD school but they are all slightly differant from our own individual contributions.*



and your students systems will be called? 




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> But I think that if they do switch arts, which I'm not encouraging, they should not have to go back to white belt as long as they know that they cannot promote until they have caught up tp their rank and exceeded it. But this is for the future as we are not teaching anything at this time except American Combat Kempo and Atemi Kempo Jujitsu. *



good for you but not for them?  this whole new system thing every few years is really nothing more than marketing. New and Improved! 100% guaranteed! (action figures don't really move- just shown for dramatic effect.)

but i can certainly understand your choices and your rationale for doing what you do- they stem from the decisions made by your own teacher and their teacher, all leading back  to the day some one decided that anyone with any modicum of skill can claim their own system- become their own grandmaster and teach whatever they like cause "it works."

take my views or leave them. that's what they are.

peace.

Jaz K.


----------



## Doc (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> * ........ but i can certainly understand your choices and your rationale for doing what you do- they stem from the decisions made by your own teacher and their teacher, all leading back  to the day some one decided that anyone with any modicum of skill can claim their own system- become their own grandmaster and teach whatever they like cause "it works."
> 
> take my views or leave them. that's what they are.
> ...



You forgot - Batteries not included, some assembly may be neccessary, not responsible for possible side effects, picture is only a serving suggestion, and pictures results are not typical. Allow 6 - 8 weeks for delivery.

Well said sir.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 14, 2003)

My definition of advanced techniques are techniques that are hard to grasp onto, or that you need to have a good handle on other techniques before you can do that technique. I believe there are advanced techniques, I don't do JKD so... I guess it's just different philosiphies. There are techniques that can seriousily hurt people, much more so than the basic punch, I would consider that an advanced technique.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *My definition of advanced techniques are techniques that are hard to grasp onto, or that you need to have a good handle on other techniques before you can do that technique. I believe there are advanced techniques, I don't do JKD so... I guess it's just different philosiphies. There are techniques that can seriousily hurt people, much more so than the basic punch, I would consider that an advanced technique. *




I don't know......I have seen a basic punch dent a metal kendo helmet pretty good.

I understand where your coming from though.
Some techniques require a little more finesse than others and therefore are considered advanced.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> *so you essentially teach sports fighting?
> 
> 
> ...



Your slightly misguided, thats all. First my Sifu that trained me is Felix Macias Jr. He was trained by his father Felix Macia Sr. who was James Lees student in the Oakland JKD school. The macias chose to not use the JKD name or be associated with it. That was their choice all along for many reasons besides the watered down beliefs. They are very highly qualified in what they do and Felix Sr. is one of the fortunate few that new Bruce. Joe Lewis actually received little training for a short period of time from Bruce but I believe he knew him well. 

Inosantos JKD is very differant that what was taught in Oakland. I never stated that JKD grappling sucks. I said it does not fit in with the concepts. Thats my opinion. I'm entitled to it as anybody else who has trained under a legitimate instructor.

I've learned a lot from BJJ and I've definately drawn from it but I am no way qualified to say I teach BJJ. That would be disrespecting the whole legitimate BJJ world.

When Gary Dill created Bushido Kempo and made it an open ended system. That was his decision what he was qualified to make. Before he took JKD he was already a Karate Instructor so he did the exact same thing that Joe Lewis did and changed his whole Karate curriculum. We all know that Joe Lewis does not teach what he learned in Okinawa.

As far as the open ended system. I said it was meant to be modified by the individual. I did not say that you were supposed to change the same! I said it was OK for Carter Hargrave to change the name because it is open ended.

So how can it be stupid to create an art from JKD. Most of the world perceives JKD as not even being an art. This is argued everyday in all the forums. The fact that so many people beleive that JKD is something else other than a martial art is even more reason to give your own art a name and separate it from JKD.

All of my standup I credit my Sifu for fixing my weaknesses. But what don't you undertand about I promised him I would not mix up his art. Thats what he wants, to keep it as pure as he can as close to the way that James Lee taught his father as passed to him. They've enhanced it themselves but it is kept pure and differant from the conceptual teachings. You are comparing it to teachings that did not happen in the Oakland school as I've been told by my Sifu.

As far as systems being limiting. All systems are limiting. thats why JKD is a constant evoltutionary process. and why they say it isn't a system.

Actually Kempo is a generic term meaning China hand. Some say Okinawa influenced Chinese martial arts. But it actually means the exact same thing as Chuan Fa or Quan Fa which means fist law. Kenpo and Kempo are the Japanese and Okinawan pronunciation of the chinese arts. Fist law is the meaning that is most important here.

You don't really sound like you've trained in JKD and if that is the case you can't understand by reading books ar the internet. If you do have training, then you haven't been exposed to enough of the Jun Fan because nothing I was taught had anything to do with any traditional arts at all. You can draw from the traditional arts but the primary source is the Jun Fan. 

If I teach and I call my art JKD. But I don't follow the concept guidlines. Then is my art JKD? No it isn't!!

I was taught well but it would be a direspect to my Sifu's arts name and teach differantly and it would be false to teach using the JKD name and not truly be teaching JKD.

Also there nothing sport about my training in the least. I took BJJ to fill a void. Simple to understand. There are many grappling arts out there but BJJ answered the question best for being overwhelmed by your opponent and ending up on the ground.

When I teach grappling, I teach how to beat the grappler. Not just this reversal or this sweep. If I know something I teach it. I expose all the weaknesses of all the arts to my students. its useless to fight and expect to win everytime if you fighter a fighter in his world, you have to impose your world on him.

I will be, that can't change. The arts are just arts, and the names are just names, not to be fussed over.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> Actually Kempo is a generic term meaning China hand. Some say Okinawa influenced Chinese martial arts. But it actually means the exact same thing as Chuan Fa or Quan Fa which means fist law. Kenpo and Kempo are the Japanese and Okinawan pronunciation of the chinese arts. Fist law is the meaning that is most important here.
> *




Kempo does not mean "China Hand" under any circumstances.
Who says Okinawa influenced Chinese MA?
It's more like the other way around.............

Kempo/Kenpo are the Japanese way to say the Chinese word Chuan Fa. The kanji can be seen here   @

This is a good example why I have a beef with guys like you that found their "own" arts....... you pass on false/totally inaccurate information.


----------



## Kirk (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Kempo does not mean "China Hand" under any circumstances.
> *



Does it mean "fist law" ?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Does it mean "fist law" ? *




Usually it's tranlated as fist method


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Kempo does not mean "China Hand" under any circumstances.
> Who says Okinawa influenced Chinese MA?
> It's more like the other way around.............
> ...



I stand corrected! Definately. 

I don't think of myself as founding anything except my school! My system "if it lasts", then maybe when I'm dead somebody can call me that.


----------



## jazkiljok (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Your slightly misguided, thats all. First my Sifu that trained me is Felix Macias Jr. He was trained by his father Felix Macia Sr. who was James Lees student in the Oakland JKD school. The macias chose to not use the JKD name or be associated with it. That was their choice all along for many reasons besides the watered down beliefs. They are very highly qualified in what they do and Felix Sr. is one of the fortunate few that new Bruce. Joe Lewis actually received little training for a short period of time from Bruce but I believe he knew him well.
> 
> Inosantos JKD is very differant that what was taught in Oakland. I never stated that JKD grappling sucks. I said it does not fit in with the concepts. Thats my opinion. I'm entitled to it as anybody else who has trained under a legitimate instructor.
> ...



well, who can argue with that


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

jazkiljok,

Your trippin. Why you wanna  at me.

Do you train in JKD. Simple question, yes or no?
If so who is your instructor?


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 14, 2003)

And you all say I am too rude.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

I deleted the rudeness even though I was dissed.


----------



## sweeper (Feb 15, 2003)

ok, but I'm kind of curious about this statement.



> Also all the JKD systems are new systems. If they are not the original system, then they are new systems. Perhaps they share the same name, but we all know that no 2 JKD systems are the same, so they are all new systems.



Are you talking about the diffrent teaching styles? Or perhaps the minor diffrences that always pop up when diffrent people learn the same art but at diffrent times? Or are you talking about a deliberet change? (or something else?)

jazkiljok fealing a little hostile?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *And you all say I am too rude. *





I don't think so.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

Here is an interesting article about Bob Boggs that has some good info on Joe Lewis as well.



http://www.kenukan.com/Home/Magazine.PDF


----------



## Doc (Feb 15, 2003)

It's clear to  me that someone here doesn't know what the crap he's talking about, and I'm not being rude - just observant.  I think I need to unsubscribe to this thread.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *It's clear to  me that someone here doesn't know what the crap he's talking about, and I'm not being rude - just observant.  I think I need to unsubscribe to this thread. *




And who might that cluless person be and why are they cluless?


----------



## Doc (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *And who might that cluless person be and why are they cluless? *



I dunno. Maybe  someone said TKD but he heard JKD and  is confused. I applaud your patience.my friend.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I dunno. Maybe  someone said TKD but he heard JKD and  is confused. I applaud your patience.my friend. *



Hell, I could give you an educated comment about either one....


----------



## Aegis (Feb 15, 2003)

I can't actually believe that 5 people voted yes on that poll....


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

Maybe one person voted 5 times...  I was tempted to cast a vote out of sarcasm, but figured it would screw up the stats, so I didn't.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Maybe one person voted 5 times...  I was tempted to cast a vote out of sarcasm, but figured it would screw up the stats, so I didn't.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



I dont think so because you can only vote once. I think someone just did it to be funny or there mad.....:asian:


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *It's clear to  me that someone here doesn't know what the crap he's talking about, and I'm not being rude - just observant.  I think I need to unsubscribe to this thread. *



The real reason you ignored what I brought on your art is you know its true. I know this because before long JKD I was Kajukenbo. Ed Parkers high rank did not come from William Chow.
I'm only speaking about his 8th degree. It came from adriano Emperado the founder of Kajukenbo. Emperado was qualified to give this rank but the question re-appears.

William Chow is still alive but Ed Parker gets a high rank from Emperado. 

Also Adriano Emperado received his high rank from someone other than William Chow. See for your self:

http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=hist_gen

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

CN: Kajukenbo has a lot of kung fu elements, did you also train in kung fu? 

EMPERADO: Yes, in my 30s I also trained in various forms of kung fu under , Professor Wong, and Professor Lau. It was several years later that these Professors and the Hawaii Chinese Physical Culture Association awarded me the title of Professor, 10th degree. I was also awarded a certificate by Grandmaster Ho Gau of Hong Kong appointing me as an advisor and representative of the "Choy Li Fut" system. This certificate was signed by Grandmaster Ho Gau, Professor Cheuk Tse and the directors of the Hawaii Chinese Physical Culture Association.  

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

CN: How well did you know Ed Parker? 

EMPERADO: Before he started training with Professor Chow, Ed trained with me for about 2 weeks. While he was with me he took the first 8mm movies of the Palama settlement training. I knew him for many years. At times when I was in California he would have me as his guest of honor at the Long Beach Internationals. After Ed left Hawaii he became estranged from Professor Chow. It was Ed who brought kenpo to mainland America, made it popular, and made so many contributions to the art, so in the late 60s I promoted him to 8th degree black belt.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Hell, I could give you an educated comment about either one.... *




Sorry, that should read "couldn't" give you an educated comment about either one....


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *I can't actually believe that 5 people voted yes on that poll.... *



I can't believe even one person voted "yes", let alone 5.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

You have posted this same info at least 3 times now on other threads.............we get your point.





> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> William Chow is still alive but Ed Parker gets a high rank from Emperado.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mike Clarke (Feb 16, 2003)

I stand by what I said regarding advanced technique.

I can't believe anyone is still doing 'spinning back roundhouse kicks' and think the're learning a 'martial' art.

They [such kicks] might work if you're a ninja turtle or something, but 'real' fighting requiers 'real' techniques not the hollywood kind. You only have to look back to the shambles that Taekwondo put up in the last Olympic Games to see what this kind of thinking does to martial arts.

A year of training [4 or 5 times a week] can get any fit young person to look like they know what the're doing on the outside, but that is not the same as someone who has a deep 'feeling' for what they know. It's the understanding and intention that make a technique work, not just the physical move.

The advanced ability comes not from the move but the mind that's directing it. This is what takes the long hours of training to develop, not the move its self.

Only my opinion of course, all you spinning back kickers out there no doubt know better and will have a few comments of your own?

Mike.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 16, 2003)

Well I believe there are advanced techniques. Certain techniques that you just would not teach a white belt. Sorry maybe it's just me. But that's my opinion.


----------



## Doc (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *I stand by what I said regarding advanced technique.
> 
> I can't believe anyone is still doing 'spinning back roundhouse kicks' and think the're learning a 'martial' art.
> ...



As I recall; Wonder Woman had this spinning technique that worked really well. Everytime she did it the bad guys got whooped.


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 16, 2003)

Yeah, but she had bulletproof bracelets, an invisible plane and a magic lasso, too...


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Yeah, but she had bulletproof bracelets, an invisible plane and a magic lasso, too... *



And 2 ICBMs stuck in her back!!........if you know what I mean


----------



## Doc (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *And 2 ICBMs stuck in her back!!........if you know what I mean *



LOVE THOSE MISSLES.


----------



## sweeper (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *Well I believe there are advanced techniques. Certain techniques that you just would not teach a white belt. Sorry maybe it's just me. But that's my opinion. *



Well in the context of the question, one of AKja's main influences is training in JKD, JKD does not have such techniques..  Latter on there are some tricks thrown in but they aren't real "techniques" as most anyone would think of them. Time is spent learning how to implament those techniques you do use.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Feb 16, 2003)

Yea like I said somewhere in these 14 pages, different styles, different philosiphies.


----------



## GaryM (Feb 16, 2003)

I think that buying rank over the internet would only be legitimate if you could absolutly prove that you had watched EVERY episode of KUNG FU. Second Dan would require you to watch the Mutant Ninja Turtles. The testing requirements would be very strict though.


----------



## GaryM (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Why ask why??
> 
> In a confrontation are going to you react using the "actual' traditional techniques you were taught or are you going to adapt and modify as needed? *


 In an argument are you going to use the 'actual' language you have learned, or are you just going to point and grunt?


----------



## Disco (Feb 17, 2003)

GM, What could I expect with the following: Watched every kung fu TV show twice. Saw all three ninja turtle movies. Watched all of bruce lee's movies. Also jackie chan's, chuck norris, steven seagal and lots of names I can't pronounce. I also have specialized focus. I did see the original pilot of the green hornet. Plus, mind you, plus I eat chinese food once a week.  

In addition (Oh yes there's more), I once talked with a korean guy on the bus for about 4 hours. I think his name was Sum Dum Guy.

You think I should post all this background info on that other thread? I don't want to intimidate anyone.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *
> 
> In addition (Oh yes there's more), I once talked with a korean guy on the bus for about 4 hours. I think his name was Sum Dum Guy.
> *



I know his cousin Hung Far Low, and his aunt Sum Dum Ho


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I know his cousin Hung Far Low, and his aunt Sum Dum Ho *



Yea I  saw them advertising RyuShiKado Dan Rank in the Tokyo daily news.


----------



## GaryM (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *GM, What could I expect with the following: Watched every kung fu TV show twice. Saw all three ninja turtle movies. Watched all of bruce lee's movies. Also jackie chan's, chuck norris, steven seagal and lots of names I can't pronounce. I also have specialized focus. I did see the original pilot of the green hornet. Plus, mind you, plus I eat chinese food once a week.
> 
> In addition (Oh yes there's more), I once talked with a korean guy on the bus for about 4 hours. I think his name was Sum Dum Guy.
> ...


 I bow to the MASTER:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *I bow to the MASTER:asian: *



I used to watch that show...  Lee Van Cleif as "the (ninja) Master."

Gotta love 1980's TV programming...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## sweeper (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *Yea like I said somewhere in these 14 pages, different styles, different philosiphies. *



OK, I must have missed it than. sorry to bring it up again


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I used to watch that show...  Lee Van Cleif as "the (ninja) Master."
> 
> Gotta love 1980's TV programming...
> *



By far and away THE worst martial arts TV series ever.......dude, did someone pay you to watch that?


----------



## Kirk (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *By far and away THE worst martial arts TV series ever.......dude, did someone pay you to watch that? *



I dunno .. did ya ever watch "Kung Fu: The Legend Continues"?
That one 'stank t' high heaven':rofl:


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> ....My credentials go beyond "paper" I Can Fight!....



Good for you. Now go to Lumpinee Stadium, Bangkok , Thailand and prove it :asian:     .  The Muay Thai fighters there will do you honor.


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 18, 2003)

IMHO and limited knowledge about JKD, since Bruce Lee did not intend for JKD to be a style, all this lineage claim is meaningless. Since almost everyone interprets and evolves his/her own JKD, the most you can say is "my martial art as inspired by Bruce Lee's JKD".


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *IMHO and limited knowledge about JKD, since Bruce Lee did not intend for JKD to be a style, all this lineage claim is meaningless. Since almost everyone interprets and evolves his/her own JKD, the most you can say is "my martial art as inspired by Bruce Lee's JKD". *



You don't understand what you trying to give an opinion of.


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 18, 2003)

That is not just my opinion. That view was also expressed by Hawkins Cheung. Cheung is one of Yip Man's original top studends, and Bruce Lee's training partner. Cheung has several articles about JKD, Bruce Lee and Wing Chun. His understanding of JKD is most illuminating.

I can see that you are the one who does not know as much about JKD as you claim.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *That is not just my opinion. That view was also expressed by Hawkins Cheung. Cheung is one of Yip Man's original top studends, and Bruce Lee's training partner. Cheung has several articles about JKD, Bruce Lee and Wing Chun. His understanding of JKD is most illuminating.
> 
> I can see that you are the one who does not know as much about JKD as you claim.   *



What you don't understand is Bruce died before " whatever he was doing" was complete. Whether a style, a system or a concept it dosen't matter what it was for Bruce. Neither you nor I was there. All we have are his writings and what he taught. 

Bruces JKD was far from complete and when he left us, it was left to the individual students on what paths they would walk. I've talked at great lenth with my Sifu and Sigung and they have an art and that is what I learned and my lineage is legit, straight to Bruce. 

You can quote people who knew Bruce if you want but you overlooked that although they trained with Bruce before JKD, they still were outsiders to JKD. And the closest they got to JKD was little more than conversation. As far as their conversations with Bruce, it was about "Bruces JKD!"   Not the Macias Method that I learned.  I don't even like the word JKD because people like you always have somebody to quote thinking it applies to me.

Thats what Bruce didn't want. No fussin' and fightin' over what is JKD! Mine is Kempo Jujitsu and it is just a name, so don't fuss over it.


----------



## sweeper (Feb 19, 2003)

as I understand it Hawkins Cheung didn't realy train much with bruce lee after he came to the US. (may be wrong?) Though he corosponded with him and trained with him when BL was in hong kong? (or am I thinking of someone else?). If that is the case I would imagine his students would have the best idea of what JKD is/was/should have been.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 19, 2003)

As the "story " goes William Cheung was Bruces senior in Hong Kong and Hawkins wasn't much involved at all.


----------



## D.Cobb (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Yea I  saw them advertising RyuShiKado Dan Rank in the Tokyo daily news. *



Would that be the JKD version?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Would that be the JKD version? *



No, that would be akja's poor attempt at humor


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *What you don't understand is Bruce died before " whatever he was doing" was complete. Whether a style, a system or a concept it dosen't matter what it was for Bruce. Neither you nor I was there. All we have are his writings and what he taught.
> 
> Bruces JKD was far from complete and when he left us, it was left to the individual students on what paths they would walk. I've talked at great lenth with my Sifu and Sigung and they have an art and that is what I learned and my lineage is legit, straight to Bruce.
> ...




I suggest  reading Hawkins Cheung's articles first.  :asian:
Cheung's understanding of WingChun and JKD is most illuminating.  One needs to read his articles before making judgement on whether he is an outsider or not.


----------



## sweeper (Feb 20, 2003)

could you give a link to somewhere where we could find some?


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 21, 2003)

Just search for Hawkins Cheung. Gee! what are you, 10 yr old ?


----------



## meni (Feb 22, 2003)

you can start here
http://www.hawkinscheung.com/


----------



## sweeper (Feb 22, 2003)

hmm..  my last post didn't go up..

yeah I went there, I did a google search and a blackbelt mag search, but all I could find was the "inside kung fu" article, is this the one you were talking about?


----------



## Brother John (Sep 4, 2008)

RyuShiKan said:


> Do you think buying martial arts dan rank over the Internet is a legitimate way to earn rank ?


 Huh????



Are you serious?


Your Bro.
John


----------



## TheArtofDave (Sep 4, 2008)

*Buying rank over the net is crap, no matter how you look at it. The only way I can see video coming into play is if you record your classes so you can better yourself, and improve your speed through constant repetition.*

*Also if you're not so good with language you always know what stance to be in, and what it's called. Permission from the instructor to do this should be asked before hand.*

*That would be the only way to video test, would be if you, or somebody else recorded your classes. *

*Still its still not the same as being there getting the first hand experience and knowledge offered in class.*


----------



## Skip Cooper (Sep 4, 2008)

Can't believe this thread was revived...guess I didn't help by posting here either. 

My own 2 cents: I am surprised there was a debate on this topic that generated 16 pages. It would be like, "is it legitimate to buy a law degree/medical degree on the internet?"


----------



## GuroJason (Sep 5, 2008)

Skip Cooper said:


> Can't believe this thread was revived...guess I didn't help by posting here either.
> 
> My own 2 cents: I am surprised there was a debate on this topic that generated 16 pages. It would be like, "is it legitimate to buy a law degree/medical degree on the internet?"



Similarly, people throw around the term "chef" when they really shouldn't.  People have referred to me as a chef.  I politely remind them that I never attended any school for culinary arts, and I certainly don't have enough experience running a kitchen to be a chef.  I just like to cook, and sometimes people pay me to, and on occasion I've had to figure out how to run one myself because the manager was less than qualified or not there when he should have been.  Not that I was qualified, but I was forced to try not to let the kitchen burn down on a couple occasions.

What made me sick (physically, literally) semi-recently was when a new restaurant opened up in town and the menu said things like "Our chef's own recipe" and other mentions of their "chef."

I worked in that kitchen for a day and a half.  I had to leave before I actually threw up.  The supposed "chef" had apparently cheated on her safe serve exam, if she even took it.  Prepped food, including raw beef and chicken, was kept at room temperature for entire shifts.  I saw the meat before it was cooked, and then realized that it was being served to the public.  The thought of people eating beef that I had just seen turning grey (serve up a nice RANCID-BURGER! mmm) on the "prep table" made me about yack.  Same thing with the chicken.  They just let it sit out all shift so they wouldn't have to go all the way to the freezer to get it for an order.  Salmonella, anyone?  The list goes on.

I'm friends with the owner, so I wrote down a list of everything that would get them fined, if not closed down immediately, by a surprise visit from the health board.


----------



## Skip Cooper (Sep 5, 2008)

GuroJason said:


> Similarly, people throw around the term "chef" when they really shouldn't. People have referred to me as a chef. I politely remind them that I never attended any school for culinary arts, and I certainly don't have enough experience running a kitchen to be a chef. I just like to cook, and sometimes people pay me to, and on occasion I've had to figure out how to run one myself because the manager was less than qualified or not there when he should have been. Not that I was qualified, but I was forced to try not to let the kitchen burn down on a couple occasions.
> 
> What made me sick (physically, literally) semi-recently was when a new restaurant opened up in town and the menu said things like "Our chef's own recipe" and other mentions of their "chef."
> 
> ...


 
I know what you mean about kitchen practices. I too like to cook and have often thought of going to culinary school myself. Currently, I work as a building engineer for high rise commercial buildings. At the property I work at, we have three cafes and we are responsible for managing the repairs to the equipment, clearing drainlines, and whatever. I am always apalled at the conditions in which food is prepared in these kitchens and I am told by the food service technicians that things are not much better in the finer establishments. 

As a result, I no longer desire to work in the food service industry and incidently,I pack my own lunch.


----------



## GuroJason (Sep 6, 2008)

Skip Cooper said:


> I know what you mean about kitchen practices. I too like to cook and have often thought of going to culinary school myself. Currently, I work as a building engineer for high rise commercial buildings. At the property I work at, we have three cafes and we are responsible for managing the repairs to the equipment, clearing drainlines, and whatever. I am always apalled at the conditions in which food is prepared in these kitchens and I am told by the food service technicians that things are not much better in the finer establishments.
> 
> As a result, I no longer desire to work in the food service industry and incidently,I pack my own lunch.



I've heard that too, about some of the higher end places having really sub-par food handling procedures.  I'll say this, though... the one higher end place I worked at, where the chef was really a chef with a culinary degree and over 20 years' experience, was also top-notch for food handling procedures.  That's probably because it's run and funded by Penn State... but Chef Stout, who runs all three kitchens at the Penn Stater, is the most qualified man I've ever cooked under.  He just has one sous chef, who is also the head steward, sous chef "Compton."  They do the work of about 8 of us mere mortals lol.

I don't have a cooking job anymore, sadly.  I reluctantly quit my job at the Penn Stater to do full time survey research for Penn State in Spanish... but I'm digressing like a mofo.  If I ever end up back in State College I'll see if Chef has any openings, cuz I was given an open invitation to come back.

Only thing is, like you said, I wouldn't want to make the culinary field a career.  Not only is it appalling when you work for someone who doesn't care about potentially poisoning customers (again, I'm not referring to the Penn Stater), but it's WAY stressful.


----------

