# Poomse/Hyung/Forms Tournaments & Fighting



## DuneViking (Apr 11, 2005)

Have you ever noticed . . .

How the perfomance of the same forms for tournaments and fighting differ?

How it seems some people do forms for competition in slowed motion, or are parts of several forms run together, or other wierd phenomenon?

How some people say there is no value in forms at all?

How some say they love to do forms "like a Dance or a Ballet?"

How some do forms like they mean it?

How some people have a philosophy on doing forms and others do not?

Have you ever done them " in a closet?"

What is your insight to forms, do you do them slow or fast, Ballet or deadly serious, or just slow and hard for a workout or different at different times?


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## Miles (Apr 11, 2005)

Likely going to ruffle some feathers, but.....

 There is a right way to perform poomsae (I am only speaking as to the Kukkiwon series).  

 There are segments in various poomsae which are meant to be performed with tension (such as the beginning of Sipjin) and some which are meant to be performed quickly (such as the 2 front back fists in Pyungwon).  There is a correct rhythm and cadence to poomsae.

 There are also specific times in the poomsae in which the student should kihap.  That also means all other times are "wrong."

 Poomsae should not be performed as a dance.  A given poomsae should be executed with focus of mind, power and precision of technique.  Proper execution of technique requires proper breathing-I tell my students they should "inhale on preparatory motion, exhale on execution."

 If performed improperly at a tournament, the score should be low.

 Miles


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## floweringknight (Apr 11, 2005)

How the perfomance of the same forms for tournaments and fighting differ?

How it seems some people do forms for competition in slowed motion, or are parts of several forms run together, or other wierd phenomenon?

How some people say there is no value in forms at all?

How some say they love to do forms "like a Dance or a Ballet?"

How some do forms like they mean it?

How some people have a philosophy on doing forms and others do not?

Have you ever done them " in a closet?"

What is your insight to forms, do you do them slow or fast, Ballet or deadly serious, or just slow and hard for a workout or different at different times

My 2 cents worth; 1 at a time:

The first question I feel may deserve it's own thread...

I can't explain 95% of what goes on in tournaments...this included!

The people who say there is no value in forms I feel sorry for; they are missing a HUGE benefit indeed!

Ballet or dance style forms? I suppose it takes all types. And what's up with music???

Not sure about the next line: _"... like they mean it"_  Like they mean what? Mean to get in shape? Mean to exercise? Mean to be active? Mean to hurt, maim, or kill someone? Hmmmm

Yes, I have done forms in a closet, underwater, blindfolded, seated in a chair, driving my car, you get the idea. (not all at once mind you...)

One of the best things I ever did to help my form, power, balance, center, fluidity, grace, control, etc was practicing Tai Chi (I actually had to as part of the curriculum for my studies in Oriental Medicine). I strongly urge everyone to _experiment_ with your forms. Do them fast (too fast), do them slow, so slow that you are barely even moving. I have stretched a 30 second form (at regular speed) into 20 minutes. A whole new world! Sometimes I don't have much energy, so I just walk through the form(s) - helps to keep the gears in my head turning. Other times, like my life depends on it - some day it may!

Remember: The whole entire Liberary of Congress is composed of just 26 letters! Everything there is just combinations and recombinations of letters and groups of letters. This is the essence of forms practice: combining and recombining all the various blocks, strikes, kicks, throws, takedowns, etc. together with power and fluidity.

Thank you for allowing this low ranking novice to babble...just _my_ opinions.


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## TigerWoman (Apr 12, 2005)

Poomse when performed properly is awesome to see.  Very rarely do I see it.  My instructor shows us a complete form rarely but even in snatches, you see the difference.  When I look at form I want to see long low stances done in synchrony and balance with punches and kicks.  I want to see strength and flexibility training evident in the holding of high kicks and transitioning from low backstance to low backstance. In form, there is a solidness of power evident and a surety in movement from technique to technique. As Miles said, a cadence should be evident.  But not all technique should be done slowly but with the right power, speed and tension.  Each technique is not blurred into another but done with exactness.  I believe in slowing forms down too and examining them minutely.  Look at yourself in a mirror and record if possible and have a look see back and critic yourself on video, honestly. 

Too many times, I see the student does not really learn the technique the way it should be done.  Like in Taeguek 5, which is our blue belt, there is the first sidekick.  The way I learned it was that you had to rotate your standing leg to point the other way, kick high-heel down-snapped fast in a straight line, tuck/retract your leg in before putting your foot down exactly in long stance. I see quick low sidekicks without rotation instead because this is not practiced well. But of course they only come to class two times a week to practice.  And weight is sometimes a problem.  Sadly they get passed and their next sidekick in form is not any better.  Form needs to really be learned to its fullest for each belt level, I believe.  If the student doesn't conquer each form, how can he/she becomes a good black belt instructor to teach others to do it well?  TW

.


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## DuneViking (Apr 15, 2005)

Thanks for the feedback.

"Like you mean it"    - yes. Whether its for exercise, defense etc, but done with real effort as opposed to laxidasical "I'm Bored now" students that annoy me, whether they are peers or kids, though the kids I can be more sypathetic to becuase they are, - well --kids. 

I consider forms valuable tools, and I do perform them differently at different times, one of the first variations I was introduced to was slow tension, taking 3,4,5,6,7x the normal time doing the form slow and under varying amounts of tension. Also doing them in a closet or confined space, or under very cold colditons in winter and water (lake Michigan as soon as the ice melts- but NOT under slow tension!!!) Even  doing the forms in sand on the beach is different as well as the wooded dunes. 

I too am amazed at what goes on at tournaments!! It seems though, on the whole, the higher scores are given to those who do the forms a bit slower and exaggerated, pressing the range of motion limits such as doing a high kick where the actual form calls for it to be focused on the midsection etc.  I often fail to see real power put into forms. Often, I am exhausted because I will put all the energy I have into a form, but I have not seen that done at all in competition (limited exposure, of course, I do not get out much! LOL)

Right way - yes, as taught, shouts in the right place and so on(ie high kicks for competition where it was taught as midsection). I have seen some of the younger competitors add 4-8 shouts to a form that has 2. 

Thanks all for your input!!


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## TigerWoman (Apr 15, 2005)

I had a twelve year old girl who had great stances, kicks but her timing and punches were off.  She wasn't getting it that the punch in the form was the same as a punch during sparring.  No matter how many times I told her "to punch like you mean it" did she improve.  I even demonstrated.  Finally I told her to punch me, full bore to the chest.  She was slight but she punched well.  After that, it clicked, she punched like that in the form and her foot came down at the same time.  What it takes, who knows, with different people.  We all learn differently.  

As far as high kicks in a tournament.  We are trained for that.  Its easy to kick midsection.  So what if that is what is in the manual.  It is harder to do a high kick, hold that kick a sec, and go back into backstance.  That training is rewarded for a tournament.  Although kids that are flexible seem to do it effortlessly, I still watch for the snap of power, how they go back into stance, with balance and control.  TW


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## searcher (Apr 16, 2005)

It is truly amazing how people who are "fighters" hate forms, even though they are using the same techniques.    I used to be one who placed little value in froms training until I started digging into the application.   It really opened my mind and has allowed me to see what the masters of old were thinking when they put the forms together.   I now ca't seem to go a day without performing my forms.   

I prefer to practise my hyungs and kata with a ballet like mentality.   The "ballet of death."  I go very hard while trying to be very light and graceful.   There is a great karate man that happens to be of Korean birth named Mas Oyama.   He said that, "if you give me a dancer I can make them a fighter."   Good words from one of history's greatest fighters.


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## DuneViking (Apr 16, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> It is truly amazing how people who are "fighters" hate forms, even though they are using the same techniques. I used to be one who placed little value in froms training until I started digging into the application. It really opened my mind and has allowed me to see what the masters of old were thinking when they put the forms together. I now ca't seem to go a day without performing my forms.
> 
> I prefer to practise my hyungs and kata with a ballet like mentality. The "ballet of death." I go very hard while trying to be very light and graceful. There is a great karate man that happens to be of Korean birth named Mas Oyama. He said that, "if you give me a dancer I can make them a fighter." Good words from one of history's greatest fighters.


Not to get too far off track . . .

The perfection of character. All schools teaching true karate have this in common, nothing else is significant.
Mas Oyama

Of all I have heard about this man since I was a child in 1973, this stikes me with the most awe. I did not find it listed anywhere, it was passed down verbally by my instructor and is used today in our association regularly.


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## Spookey (Apr 19, 2005)

I to believe that the hyungs are a great instrument of learning. I am one of those "fighters" however I have learned the many purposes of the hyung.

The hyung offer a set of movements that merge together to form an exercise for solitary training. Yes, by orientation there is a set cadence, set kihaps, and so on, however I believe tha by practicing them at varying speads and intensity levels you can gain different things from the same hyung!

Often I will practice the hyungs at a slow methodical pace feeling for a specific item of complexity. Sometimes I am looking at the balance and the movement of the lower body in connection with the earth, again I may look more at the individual feeling of the motions of the techniques, other times I may apply great tension as in the Goju Kata for the sake of feeling power...all things have a purpose!

TAEKWON!
SpooKs


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## Marginal (Apr 19, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> As far as high kicks in a tournament.  We are trained for that.  Its easy to kick midsection.  So what if that is what is in the manual.  It is harder to do a high kick, hold that kick a sec, and go back into backstance.  That training is rewarded for a tournament.



I'd mark that pattern down.


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## searcher (Apr 19, 2005)

Spookey said:
			
		

> I to believe that the hyungs are a great instrument of learning. I am one of those "fighters" however I have learned the many purposes of the hyung.
> Spooks


I used to be one of those fighters that I mentioned, but it seems that time and training have changed my feelings towards forms.   I used to be very nasty towards the forms competitors and now I am one, who would have thought it?


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