# When to begin cross-training



## KenpoMatt (Aug 4, 2003)

Ok, here's a question for you...

I train in American Kenpo. I envision that at some point in my  martial career I will cross-train in another style. At what point do you believe it is appropriate to begin training in another style? What is the indicator that lets you as a MA'ist know you are ready to branch out?


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 4, 2003)

Cross train only after you have a good grasp upon the art you are currently taking. If I were you I'd take a look at a few other threads that have been posted on here. This could turn out to be ugly.:asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 4, 2003)

Just had to give this thread five stars in anticipation of the upcoming keyboard slugfest...


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## Ender (Aug 4, 2003)

I think anytime you add knowledge it is a good thing. as long as it doesn't conflict with your primary style. like the previous post, if you haven't grasped firmly what you have learned, then adding more knowledge will only cause confusion. JMO


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## bdparsons (Aug 4, 2003)

MartialTalk.Com>Arts>Kenpo/Kempo - General>Just started Kenpo, style to go with?

Respects,
Bill Parsons


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Just had to give this thread five stars in anticipation of the upcoming keyboard slugfest... *



OFK;
I'll give it a 10 if you can fight the good fight again!


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## MJS (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Matt_IUP _
> *Ok, here's a question for you...
> 
> I train in American Kenpo. I envision that at some point in my  martial career I will cross-train in another style. At what point do you believe it is appropriate to begin training in another style? What is the indicator that lets you as a MA'ist know you are ready to branch out? *



Oh my God!!!!  Here we go again!  Bro, I hope you realize the trouble you just started by making this post!  LOL, I'm only joking with you.  But, I can already predict that there will be LOTS of discussion on this.

To answer the question.  IMO, I would not start cross training until you already have a good understanding of your base art.  What is a good understanding and how long will it take?  That depends on the person.  I would say that by the middle belts---blue, green, brown--if you want to start, then go right ahead.  Of course, you are going to hear from people on here, "Why cross train, when there is so much to learn in Kenpo?"  Keep in mind that we all train differently.  We all have different reasons for training.  I cross train in Arnis and BJJ.  I do the Arnis, because it blends with any art.  It addresses weapons a little better than the Kenpo.  I do the BJJ, to have a better understanding of the ground.  While Kenpo, according to some, addresses the ground, it does not address it the same way as the BJJ does.

While the journey does not end with Black belt, and there is much more to learn and expand on, there is such a wide variety of things out there and different concepts to look at, I say, why not get a sample of something different?  I'm not saying you have to drop your base art and begin another, but if you can take an idea from another style and make it work for you and make your Kenpo better, why not do it!

Mike


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 5, 2003)

Uh...according to your profile you're a white belt? Why's this an issue, if you're happy with where you're training?

I pretty much agree with the last poster, though.


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## KenpoMatt (Aug 5, 2003)

OK - thanks everyone. I certainly didn't mean to start a holy war. That wasn't my intention. Obviously, you've been over this subject before. I'm new to this discusion board. My apologies.

Robert - It really isn't an issue. Frankly, I was just reading some of the conversations posted here and was interested in getting involved. It seems I picked a topic that has already been beaten to death. I am happy with where I am training. Also, I am not new the martial arts and I'll leave it at that. 

Everyone - thanks very much for your input.


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## Turner (Aug 5, 2003)

I'll add my two cents in here.

I believe that it depends on what you are studying the martial arts for as to when you should cross train (or whether you cross train at all.)

If you are studying for the martial aspects... i.e. you are anticipating that you will be faced with combat soon, you should probably cross train as soon as possible to cover the situations you might be faced with. (Kenpo for stand-up, BJJ for ground, Arnis for weapons and etc.)

When studying for the martial aspects, efficiency is key. You want to learn as quickly and as effectively as possible because you feel that you face a threat that could come at any moment.

If you are studying for the artistic aspects... i.e. This is a hobby, lifestyle or a form of recreation, it is my opinion that you should probably wait until you at least have your 3rd Degree Black Belt.

When studying for the artistic aspects, the goal is not only to know how to use the material but how to incorporate it into who you are as a person. This means that you should know enough to not only understand how to use it but you can analyze it and break it down to the point where you can understand why it works for you and why it might not work for others.

Because we all focus on different things we have different opinions about whether cross training is important or whether or not one should practice forms. The martialist is focused on defending him or herself and that is the sole focus. All other gains are secondary. The artist is interested in the big picture, they want it all and are willing to take their time to get it.

Both approaches to Kenpo have their merit. Some truly need to have the martialist approach, but once they have their brown belt in Kenpo and a purple belt in BJJ they should have sufficient skills to protect them from an attack. Once they've won or lost that impending battle, where do they go from there? Unless they decide to move onto something else, they must move from being the martialist to being the artist. Most don't make that transition very well. The whole artistic approach just isn't them. They've focused on efficiency and effectiveness that the artistic approach, seems wasteful. Forms? There are drills that teach the same things as forms but more efficiently and more effectively. So? To the artist a form is done not only because it teaches something, it provides a sense of enjoyment. And so the martialist moves from the primary art that he/she loves and moves on to another one because it is effective and efficient. In time they will begin to see redundancies and inefficiencies in that art and will move on to another one that is effective and efficient in a different way. The martialist will spend a lifetime training hard to be unbeatable because there is always the realization that there is someone out there better and want to be prepared in case an encounter occurs.

The Artist approaches the arts very differently. They have experienced one art and even though there may be other more effective and efficient arts out there, this is their ART and they love it because it provides them with everything that they need. They are interested in learning self-defense but they have a need that good beyond just self-defense. They love the motions involved in their art and they continue with it because they know that if they put in enough time they will be able to understand so much because all of the martial arts are based on one common thing; motion. If they continue to analyze and study motion and the principles inherent to motion in time they will be able to understand it all. If they don't then the journey wasn't wasted because it did lead them somewhere and that is all they want. They spend a lifetime constantly being amazed at all of the tiny aspects of the arts that they have to learn. They can't comprehend the martialists approach... why would someone go somewhere else when you've got everything you need right here? The issue is efficiency. Yes, the artistic approach of self-discovery winds up being more rewarding artistically than the martialist approach of seeking out others who have already made the discoveries, but the martialist approach makes for better fighters sooner.

Is one way better than the other? It depends on your goals.
When should you cross train? It depends on  your goals.

That's my opinion. It's also my opinion that it is silly to argue over such things. It all has merit, depending on your perspective/point of view. Go ahead and debate the issues and try to help the other to understand your point of view, but understand that it may not be possible and that no matter what you shouldn't take the issue personally.

Doug Turner

A side note: No matter who you are, if you've learned something from more than one source you have cross trained. Cross training is merely the study of motion from different perspectives.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 5, 2003)

... and a nice distinction between what drives different individuals.  

There are a couple of other catagories of students I see, but rather than muddy up the waters, I like the way you set this paradigm up.  Maybe what I see are sub-catagories under the two broad general headings you offer.

It is a silly arguemnent, with a no-win solution since people are coming from such diametrically opposed perspectives of "why they train."  This explains, in-part, why there can be no resolution to the disagreements between the two camps.

Oss


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Uh...according to your profile you're a white belt? Why's this an issue, if you're happy with where you're training?
> 
> I pretty much agree with the last poster, though. *



Where does it say that in his profile??  I see no mention of rank?

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Matt_IUP _
> *OK - thanks everyone. I certainly didn't mean to start a holy war. That wasn't my intention. Obviously, you've been over this subject before. I'm new to this discusion board. My apologies.
> 
> Robert - It really isn't an issue. Frankly, I was just reading some of the conversations posted here and was interested in getting involved. It seems I picked a topic that has already been beaten to death. I am happy with where I am training. Also, I am not new the martial arts and I'll leave it at that.
> ...



Matt- Do not get discouraged by anything that someone posts on here.  Everybody has their own opinions and yes, we all voice them.  By all means, if you have a question about something, please feel free to ask.  You might take a little bit of a beating on here, but don't let it stop you from posting a question that you may have.  

This topic however, has been discussed on another thread, but like I said, dont stop posting!!! 

Mike


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## KenpoMatt (Aug 5, 2003)

Thanks Mike - I'll stick around. You guys don't seem that bad anyway


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## Turner (Aug 5, 2003)

I agree that I gave two very broad categories that people MAY fit into. I also see other categories that a person may fall into, however I used these two since they seem to rival each other constantly on forums.

Other categories to consider:
Art/technique Collector (This is a person that appears at first glance to be a martialist, but they don't really look for effective or efficient. They just want different.)

Belt Collector (This is a person that is just looking for a certain rank and wind up taking short-cuts in order to get there, like taking Dragon Kenpo or the Chief's course.)

List maker (This is a person that has the appearance of being an artist at first, but they stop once they get to a certain point primarily at black belt. They have always wanted to have a black belt and so they'll spend however long it takes to get that black belt, but once that test is over they will gradually or even quickly drop out of the martial arts, proud in the knowledge that they have a black belt.)

Martialist Artist (The person that is equally interested in the martialist and the artist approaches. Being very rare, they wind up being the innovators and explorers like Parker and Lee.)

Candy Artists (A person that looks like an artist, but doesn't actually explore for their personal discovery. They are just there and they remain there. They make no discoveries on their own. They only progress as they are handed new information. They are clones, carbon copies.. void of a soul. Their knowledge is like a dictionary. They know the words and the definitions but really don't know what it all means.)

I'm sure there are plenty more.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 5, 2003)

I guess I never really defined or named the catagories, but I certainly see them, and have to chuckle.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 5, 2003)

I feel that cross-training is important (have I said that before?).  Everyone should be exposed to other arts -- just like everyone should take a year of a foreign language in school and should visit another country sometime in their life.  

But you don't have to sacrifice basic study in your primary art to BEGIN cross training.  You don't have to sacrifice one or more nights a week to BEGIN cross-training.  You can attend a seminar.  Your sensei can invite another martial artist to give a seminar at your school.  You could go to another school and take the 3- or 5-lesson introductory course.  That is enough to give you a basic flavor for another style.  This should be done after a few years of study.  The insights gained from seeing another art's perspective can only help you develop a deeper understanding  of Kenpo.

Now, after you've achieved your Black Belt in Kenpo, you will have enough information to decide what to do next:  to continue focusing on Kenpo, to augment your Kenpo with 1 or 2 days a week of something else (not just martial arts, maybe more college, maybe a cooking class, maybe going on a date...), or switching entirely to a new style or outside endeavor.  Since Black Belt is just the beginning of your real Kenpo development, I suspect that most will choose to focus on Kenpo while dabbling in seminars to broaden their martial knowledge.  And that is just fine.


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 5, 2003)

I quite agree with the very-traditionalist idea that the real way to cross-train doesn't involve "martial arts," at all, but such matters as living a life, studying calligraphy, working on your house, etc. Nice.

Since the problem is that too many of these arguments are wedded to rigid and dogmatic ideas about, "inside," and, "outside," about, "fighting," vs. "art," etc., this is a good way around.

Or, we could simply accept that everything we do on a mat, or in training, is to some extent fantasy. That's what all eddication is, anyway, what Goffman calls, "utilitarian make-believe."


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 5, 2003)

Robert:  Did you and I just agree on something about Cross-training?


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 5, 2003)

I find that the longer I study Kenpo the less I feel the need to cross train.  I feel that you add little to your knowlege till you have a good base to work from.  The longer I train the more I find that I need to improve my Kenpo.

I do find that when I'm exposed to other arts I find even more within the Kenpo.  I do find that when I see something new I often need to reexamine Kenpo for new answers. 

There has been a lot of useless energy expended on telling others to crosstrain/or not.  I personally Study Kenpo and dabble in other arts (for fun).  I judge others by what they come to the mat with, not by the color of their belt, or the style they study or the awards they've been given.  Clyde chooses no to cross train but from everything I've heard he deserves my respect as a martial artist.  Martin Wheeler has cross trained extensively and earns my respect everytime I meet him. Al McLuckie doesn't study Kenpo at all (FMA/Systema) but is awe inspiring and impresses Kenpoists when they meet him.  There is more than one road to the truth (possibly more than one truth.)  I do know that you can't get anywhere unless you put the energy into traveling that road.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I feel that cross-training is important (have I said that before?).  Everyone should be exposed to other arts -- just like everyone should take a year of a foreign language in school and should visit another country sometime in their life.
> 
> But you don't have to sacrifice basic study in your primary art to BEGIN cross training.  You don't have to sacrifice one or more nights a week to BEGIN cross-training.  You can attend a seminar.  Your sensei can invite another martial artist to give a seminar at your school.  You could go to another school and take the 3- or 5-lesson introductory course.  That is enough to give you a basic flavor for another style.  This should be done after a few years of study.  The insights gained from seeing another art's perspective can only help you develop a deeper understanding  of Kenpo.
> ...



I should have read this first.  You say it better than I did.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 5, 2003)

Though I haven't read all this thread yet, I think we are all approaching it this time in a much more constructive and positive way.

Thank you for all the wisdom poured in here by everyone :asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 5, 2003)

It's good to see this topic treated respectfully...but I wonder if it is peaceful here because of battle-fatigue from the flame wars going on over at the KenpoNet forum...


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 5, 2003)

Actually, yes, as at times before.

These discussions remind me of two things in academics:

1) One of my writing students, last week, told me that he wanted to write an essay about why the flathead 6 was a superior engine to the V-12 for racing...I couldn't get him to see that it's all in how you set up the rules of the game and the definitions...that such issues are discussions of style and culture and preferences and histories, not discussions of scientific fact...

2) It's hard, these days, to get students to understand that it is NOT, "all good," that not all ideas are valid--that, as Stanley Fish wrote, college students should be taught to leave their opinions at home. Too many, these days, think that scientific theory and personal opinions are the same thing...they wouldn't know "science," if it mugged them.

Somewhere in between those two issues lies the reasons that I get so bloody tired of reading trumpeting about "absolute realism." Knowledge is so fragile, really, and it's so easy to cheat on the mat about, "realism..."

Most realistic thing I've read, lately, is a statement in Nigel Sutton's "Applied T'ai Chi Chuan," to the effect that it's better for students that they begin with forms whose applications are mysterious, so that they don't get unrealistic ideas about their fighting abilities...

(Yes, I recollect all the attacks on these sorts of ideas. Yes, some martial arts keep students in the dark forever. Yes, effective and efficient self-defense is a worthy goal. Yes, yes, yes. I got it, other folks than OFK, OK?)

I suppose one of the differences is that, as a bit of a martial arts lumphead, I have considerable respect for my own incapacity---I used to say that I knew enough kenpo to get myself into deep trouble, and not nearly enough to get me back out again...


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 5, 2003)

Robert:  Now you've posted something on cross training -- and I can't find anything in it with which to disagree.  I am feeling queasy...sweating...turning pale...got to sit down...


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## molson (Aug 5, 2003)

Matt, 

I am a fellow grad of IUP. Welcome to the Kenpo world


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## KenpoMatt (Aug 5, 2003)

yep, that's my alma mater - thanks Molson


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Robert:  Now you've posted something on cross training -- and I can't find anything in it with which to disagree.  I am feeling queasy...sweating...turning pale...got to sit down... *



LOL!!!   Yes, I am impressed also.  Its also good to see the forum taking a turn for the better---not as much fighting!

Mike


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## Brother John (Aug 5, 2003)

ONLY after 5th dan.
I'm a firm believer in this.

Your Bro.
John


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## MJS (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *ONLY after 5th dan.
> I'm a firm believer in this.
> 
> ...



Just curious, but why so long?

Mike


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## Brother John (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Just curious, but why so long?
> 
> Mike *



For complete internalization of the first/base art...
this is what I got from a martial artist that I trust and believe in, I think his logic is sound.
Perhaps I shouldn't say that I'm a "firm" believer in this, that's not worded accurately. I think this makes good sense, but I don't feel it's the ONLY way to go I guess. 

It's up to the person:
Has the first art given you the knowledge and (more importantly) the competency that you want?
Is the second (third) art complimentary or compensatory?? In other words... is it very similar in nature and approach OR does it fill in the gaps of the first art?

Important considerations.

Your Brother
John


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## MJS (Aug 6, 2003)

John, thanks for the explaination!!

Mike


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## Brother John (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Matt_IUP _
> *
> I train in American Kenpo. I envision that at some point in my  martial career I will cross-train in another style.*



I'm not judging you for this at all.
I think this thought crosses (or has crossed) many Kenpoists minds before and will continue to...
but for you in particular
*WHY?*  

Your Brother
John


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## howardr (Aug 7, 2003)

rmcrobertson wrote:



> Most realistic thing I've read, lately, is a statement in Nigel Sutton's "Applied T'ai Chi Chuan," to the effect that it's better for students that they begin with forms whose applications are mysterious, so that they don't get unrealistic ideas about their fighting abilities...



What an intriguing twist on an idea (hiding self-defense applications in mysterious forms) normally discredited by "modern" martial artists - that it is actually more practical for students to have the applications hidden rather than immediately revealed. On the surface, it seems the opposite of practicality, but I can see the logic here since in my experience beginners in the arts (and not just Kenpo) think after a few lessons, months, etc. that they are super-invincible. Thus, I get the sense of waiting until the students really can move, control their musculature, have ingrained the patterns, etc., at which point the application is revealed so that they might now actually really be able to successfully use it in a confrontation.

Now I'm not saying that I'm sold on the idea since I like the up front "here's the application" approach of Kenpo, but your quote definitely gave me something to think about. There is certainly at least a reasonable justification for that traditional manner of instruction (though I'm not sure if that justification is typical of that traditional approach or is just that one fellow's perspective, but the point remains).

Thanks.

Howard


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## KenpoMatt (Aug 7, 2003)

> I'm not judging you for this at all. I think this thought crosses (or has crossed) many Kenpoists minds before and will continue to... but for you in particular WHY?



Why? Hmm...for a few different reasons. It really depends on which style we're talking about. Some, admittedly may sound silly. But, at least I am being honest. Ok - the reasons: 

1) I have been to a couple of judo and BJJ seminars. I am completely tickled by the act of flipping someone across the mat. It is just plain FUN. Another reason is that I'd like to know that I can *seriously* hold my own against a grappler if I ever got laid out on my back.

2) I always enjoy the opportunity to spar ppl from other MA's. It throws me off my game when I'm not seeing the same things or types of things all the time. (example: I believe kenpoka tend to have similar sparring traits such as no or low kick, close range, blazing speed, etc). I like to see what the other guys are going to throw at me.

3) The final reason is just simple curiosity. I am curious guy in with things. It's just in my nature.

Don't get me wrong. I love kenpo. It will always be a huge part of my life and the primary focus of my training. 

Anyway - those are just a few of my reasons. 

What are your thoughts? Haven't you ever been curious?


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## Brother John (Nov 30, 2003)

I like your reasons.
At what stage in your current art will you begin 'crosstraining'?
Your Brother
John


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## psi_radar (Dec 1, 2003)

It's nice to see a positive thread on this. 

I'm a believer in crosstraining, due to a couple reasons:

I was a high school wrestler, so in some ways Kenpo is already cross-training to me. A part of me will always want to get in a crouch and shoot for the legs. 

My instructor is a cross-trainer himself and has always injected a little "flava" from other arts here and there as a supplement or counterpoint to the Kenpo instruction. And he hosts instructors form other arts from time to time as well. 

To add an analogy that basically aligns with what KenpoMatt said:

I live in Colorado. Colorado has some of the best outdoor terrain to explore, decent food, and it's a generally good place to live. You could spend a lifetime exploring every mountain, river, landmark, and restaurant. However, I enjoy traveling, seeing different places, cultures, hearing their languages and delving into the different tastes of their cuisine and ways of life. It challenges my own way of life and helps me to grow.

Kenpo is the place I live, and it's comfortable. But that doesn't mean I don't like visiting other arts. I always take away something good (gotta love those guntings and the padua kappala (sp) and there's a LOT to that Systema stuff). 

I just like learning new things. It's fun, and I don't feel like I'm cheating myself or my art, rather helping myself grow within it.

So I say yeah, go for it, though I think it's good to have a base first to establish reference points.


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## psi_radar (Dec 1, 2003)

Since we're being all civilized here, thought I might bring this up:

Ed Parker Sr. cross trained--(boxing and Judo and FMA, as well as Kempo, I believe) and integrated what he learned from these arts as well as original material into what is now AK, isn't it safe to say that someone studying Kenpo is already cross-training?

(ducks for cover) :asian:


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## vincefuess (Dec 1, 2003)

I don't think I have ever met an avid martial artist who didn't at least dabble in other arts outside their primary art.  As you gain ability and insight, you see things in other arts that you find attractive or interesting.  American Kenpo is itself an ecclectic art, pooling techniques and motions from many other arts.  This makes Kenpo an excellent art to graft techniques from other arts into- you can always find a logical place to put something new.

A great many Kenpo schools incorporate Filipino Martial Arts such as Kali into their curriculum, as these styles are very complimentary.

You can find something good in every art, but be sure to be well grounded in a particualr discipline before you branch out too much.  Cross training too early leads to a condition (often terminal) called "Eternal Brown Belt".  You've seen 'em.  People who have trained for EONS and still have a brown belt, dirty and beat up from tied on a billion times, who know a little about every martial art on the planet...   Not that there's anything wrong with that (hell, I was on the three year ORANGE belt program myself until Sifu pointed out that my orange belt was turning itself brown, and I got serious about advancing).  You get the point, I'm sure.


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## MJS (Dec 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by psi_radar _
> *Since we're being all civilized here, thought I might bring this up:
> 
> Ed Parker Sr. cross trained--(boxing and Judo and FMA, as well as Kempo, I believe) and integrated what he learned from these arts as well as original material into what is now AK, isn't it safe to say that someone studying Kenpo is already cross-training?
> ...



Very good point.  It strikes me funny though, as to why some people, especially some of the die hard Kenpo guys speak so negative about crosstraining, when the GM of the very system that they study did it.  Their response is, "Why cross train?  Its already in there."  Well of course its in there....someone must have crosstrained to put it there.

Mike


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## psi_radar (Dec 2, 2003)

> Very good point. It strikes me funny though, as to why some people, especially some of the die hard Kenpo guys speak so negative about crosstraining, when the GM of the very system that they study did it. Their response is, "Why cross train? Its already in there." Well of course its in there....someone must have crosstrained to put it there.



Yeah, I don't get the adamant negativity either, though I do respect those die hard Kenpo guys' devotion to the art. I guess goals vary from martial artist to artist and that's that.


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## Brother John (Dec 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by psi_radar _
> *Yeah, I don't get the adamant negativity either, though I do respect those die hard Kenpo guys' devotion to the art. I guess goals vary from martial artist to artist and that's that. *


That's true.
....................................................................................
JUST TO BREAK THE MONOTONY OF AGREEMENT
....................................................................................
What do you guys feel is WRONG with cross-training. Obviously you feel it can and even should be done, but what are it's draw-backs. Everything has pros and cons, what are they for cross training?

Your Brother (who will post his own answer later)
John


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## Seig (Dec 3, 2003)

Some people like cross training, others do not.  In *MY* experience, it really doesn't matter.  What I have found, is that at the upper levels of the arts, they seem to blend.  Think of a traingle with a broad base, at some point you near the top.  The closer you get to the top, the narrower the triangle.  What I have seen is that as my understanding grows, I see fewer and fewer differences at the upper levels of the martial arts.  As I tell my students, especially those that come from other systems, it's a matter of degree.  Something to look at and think about, we all spend so much time looking at the techniques, we forget to look at the attacks, there is as much information in attacking correctly for our "ideal" phase as there is in the techniques themselves.


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## Brother John (Dec 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Something to look at and think about, we all spend so much time looking at the techniques, we forget to look at the attacks, there is as much information in attacking correctly for our "ideal" phase as there is in the techniques themselves. *


EXCELLENT POINT!
There's an art to being a good attacker.
Thank you

Your Brother
John


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## Rob Broad (Dec 14, 2003)

Get your first black in your primary art, and then start into other arts.  This way you will have a solid base and grasp of what you will be getting into.


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## LIONHEART (Jun 6, 2004)

Hi, I may not study Kenpo as it appears many of the people on this thread do but I thought I'de throw in my 2 cents anyway, I must admit to being a firm believer in cross training for various reasons, firstly to be exposed to the different cultures, secondly once you have been exposed to various styles you begin to see a pattern emerge that the various styles arent infact all that different if you break it down to the basics, another great point as has been said before is finding the strengths of the various styles and blending them to suit your own ability.

I agree that one should initially have a "base" style and not begin everything at once but i dont believe they need the proficiency of black belts or even brown, I personally began cross training again after only 9 months of practicing my "base" style and find that it is working fantastically.  The styles I currently train are TaeKwon Do(ITF), Tai Chi Chuan, Kobujutsu, Amok and Eskrido. Personally I studied BJJ and various forms of Russian and Israeli Grappling techniques so am fairly well versed on the ground so the drills in these arts keep me in practice.

I feel Cross Training is more efficient but remember when it comes to martial arts its about the indiviual not the style so find what works for you. hope I could be of some help.

Yours in MA LIONHEART


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## Storm (Jun 7, 2004)

Hi

This is something I have looked into and wonderd about myself.  Im a BB in kenpo yet I feel I am still very much a beginner.  There is alot more to learn after BB and Im not even part way through it.

The times when I have wanted to cross train, I thought was because it would enhance what I am learning now.  After disscussing it with my current Instructors I realised that Im not ready to do that yet, I was just disillussioned in my training at the time.  The honeymoon period for BB was over and I needed to refocus and remotivate my trainging.  So I guess my answer to this is that you will know when the time is right for you to cross train if you ever need to.


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## Han-Mi (Jun 10, 2004)

It depends on what you mean by cross training. If you mean to completely immerse yourself in another art, I would say you should attain your 2nd dan black belt before moving on. 
If you mean just training in other arts as a supplement, I would say you should start as soon as you have a good grasp on the basics of your art. What I mean by this is, you should go to seminars of other styles, and try to train with instructors of other styles on a trading knowledge basis. I find that most good instructors are willing to share knowledge.  Also, incorporation of tapes and books are good if you have some good training partners to practice with.  I don't like the idea of completely changing arts.


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## mhouse (Jun 10, 2004)

While I have not done any cross training myself, I agree that it is necessary. One form of cross-training I'd like to do is learn American Kenpo. I currently study Shaolin Kempo (Nohelty&Bryant/Cerio/Pesare lineage). I believe that in studying another form of Kenpo I would be exposed to new ways of exploring the concepts involved.  I also think that studying Akido and Ju Jitsu would enhance the basics of the locks and controls I have learned as part of Kempo.


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## hedgehogey (Jun 17, 2004)

Cross training is very neccesary. A fight can happen at free standing, clinch or ground and you need to be prepared for every possibility. 



> The times when I have wanted to cross train, I thought was because it would enhance what I am learning now. After disscussing it with my current Instructors I realised that Im not ready to do that yet, I was just disillussioned in my training at the time.



He's feeding you a line. Discouraging cross training is a mcdojo warning sign.


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## hedgehogey (Jun 17, 2004)

Edit: Oops.


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## psi_radar (Jun 18, 2004)

Storm said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> This is something I have looked into and wonderd about myself.  Im a BB in kenpo yet I feel I am still very much a beginner.  There is alot more to learn after BB and Im not even part way through it.
> 
> The times when I have wanted to cross train, I thought was because it would enhance what I am learning now.  After disscussing it with my current Instructors I realised that Im not ready to do that yet, I was just disillussioned in my training at the time.



It all depends on what feels good for you. At black belt you should know whether or not you'd like to train in another art. Don't let your instructors decide for you. You've put in a lot of time. Do you feel your training fulfills your goals with the martial arts?


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## MJS (Jun 18, 2004)

Storm said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> This is something I have looked into and wonderd about myself.  Im a BB in kenpo yet I feel I am still very much a beginner.  There is alot more to learn after BB and Im not even part way through it.
> 
> The times when I have wanted to cross train, I thought was because it would enhance what I am learning now.  After disscussing it with my current Instructors I realised that Im not ready to do that yet, I was just disillussioned in my training at the time.  The honeymoon period for BB was over and I needed to refocus and remotivate my trainging.  So I guess my answer to this is that you will know when the time is right for you to cross train if you ever need to.



It should be up to you to decide if you want to crosstrain, not your instructor!!!  If they want to limit themselves and not do it, thats fine, but you are your own person and should be able to do what you want to do.  

Mike


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## pete (Jun 18, 2004)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> At black belt you should know whether or not you'd like to train in another art.



why wait until black belt to discover you may enjoy or be better suited to a different art?  it doesn't hurt to taste some samples along the way.... each taste will either solidify you dedication to your base art, bring something back to enhance your base art, or maybe change your direction entirely (the last is what your instructor may be fear... financially)

pete


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## Ceicei (Jun 18, 2004)

I'm a green belt in EPAK and started cross-training with Judo this month.  I find that Judo really goes very nicely with Kenpo.  The principles of judo helps me do my kenpo techniques better.  I also am now noticing a lot of judo-type movements that exist in kenpo already (I didn't recognize these for what they were until I started cross-training).  I am really glad I made the decision to cross-train. 

When I made my decision last month to do this and told my kenpo instructor, he encouraged me. He knew already of my love for kenpo and that I wouldn't leave my base style.  He knew I would become a better kenpoist. Already after a few judo classes, he and I have seen improvements with the way I move and do techniques.

:asian:
- Ceicei


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## pete (Jun 18, 2004)

> I'm a green belt in EPAK and started cross-training with Judo this month...When I made my decision last month to do this and told my kenpo instructor, he encouraged me. - Ceicei



That's great.  An instructor who discourages a student's desire to cross-train, or even attend outside seminars, or does nothing to bring in talent from other arts or disciplines lacks the *confidence* in his own ability to retain a student.


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## Brother John (Jun 18, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> It should be up to you to decide if you want to crosstrain, not your instructor!!!  If they want to limit themselves and not do it, thats fine, but you are your own person and should be able to do what you want to do.
> 
> Mike


Hey Mike
I agree, it should be up to the student what they do with their learning experience. But it didn't sound like his instructor was telling him what to do, sounds to me like his instructor advised him. :idunno: 
Just my observation...

Your Brother
John


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## Storm (Jun 18, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Hey Mike
> I agree, it should be up to the student what they do with their learning experience. But it didn't sound like his instructor was telling him what to do, sounds to me like his instructor advised him. :idunno:
> Just my observation...
> 
> ...


Very True..and no I do not belong to a Mcdojo.

I asked advise and it was entirely my decision not theirs not to cross train at this time. I was wanting to train in another art for the wrong reason.  They acutually said that it was good to open ones eyes to other arts and told me to speak to others in our club that had done and received B.belts in other arts to get their views as well.  Which I did.

Definatley no force or dissaproval on my Instructors part.


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2004)

Storm said:
			
		

> Very True..and no I do not belong to a Mcdojo.
> 
> I asked advise and it was entirely my decision not theirs not to cross train at this time. I was wanting to train in another art for the wrong reason.  They acutually said that it was good to open ones eyes to other arts and told me to speak to others in our club that had done and received B.belts in other arts to get their views as well.  Which I did.
> 
> Definatley no force or dissaproval on my Instructors part.



Thank you for the clarification.  It was a little vauge, as your post really didnt go into detail saying if they had a say in your CT decision or not.  I have seen some schools who look down upon that.  I guess you can call it intimidation....if the student feels that if dont listen to the head inst. then basically there will be hell to pay.  

You said that you wanted to train in another art for the wrong reason.  What was that reason if you dont mind me asking??

Mike


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## Storm (Jun 21, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> You said that you wanted to train in another art for the wrong reason.  What was that reason if you dont mind me asking??
> Mike



This will probably make me sound like a total idiot to the more experienced MAist. Its a long story...

There is such a huge build up to BB. For months I trained as hard as I could, even got a personal trainer at the gym to get me to my peak etc. Did the grading, what a blast, would give anything to be able to do it again as I love the pressure that it put me under.

Anyway after that I had to have some time off sick and wasnt able to have much contact for the last 5 mths after so you start to get soft.  We had new people starting all the time and I was expected to help with Instructing.  I didnt feel I had the right to be doing that when I couldnt participate in it myself.  Didnt think I was good enough.

After I started to come right and get back into it I felt I had lost my edge and I was Instructing more and more and to be honest I felt like I was cast aside and forgotten about.  I did not realise the importance of Instructing to my own training.  I thought the only way you could learn was by being one of the crowd being told what to do and to jump when the Instructor said.  For years I had been told what to do jumped when told and didnt really think about it.  

After having Instructed a little more - Adults and children, I have found I am learning more and have alot more to learn.  I am also doing more training for my next syllabus (2nd degree) can see things a little differently  dont want to jump off this hill before I get to the top.  No need yet to do something else when I dont feel I have finished what I am doing and really enjoy.

To be honest  - never saw myself as a teacher, never had enough faith in my own ability until I saw some of my students improving and asking for more help from me before their class had started.  When you are talking about children who are 8 years old wanting "Your" help and seeing them improve because of "You" it makes it worth while. 

The short of it all was I was going to jump to another school so I could go back to being the new person as I was scared of the responcibility I had been given.  

My Instructors are open to any discussons about all aspects of training and keep very open minds. They would never say you cant go somewhere else or whatever as the individual does need to make their own decision.  They are there to give guidance and do it well.

So hope this makes sense.  

Cheers D


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2004)

Storm-  You didnt sound like an idiot at all.  Of course, any time you take a long period of time off from something, you're gonna notice a big difference.  I hurt my leg last year, and wasnt able to train or lift weights for quite a while.  After you start to get back into it though, you'll be amazed as to how quick it all comes back to you!

As for instructing....yeah, that is important to do.  However, make sure that you still get your own training time in.  That is something that happened to me at my old school.  I was doing more and more teaching and less of my own training.  I actually sat down an figured out the teaching hours, compared to my own learning hours and there was a huge difference.  

Dont get discouraged.  It sounds like you've got some good teachers who are guiding you on the right path.  Sometimes its good to take a break for a while.

Mike


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## Storm (Jun 22, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Dont get discouraged.  It sounds like you've got some good teachers who are guiding you on the right path.  Sometimes its good to take a break for a while.
> Mike



Thanks for that Mike.

Its funny that you say about taking a break, the guys actually said the same thing at the time that in a way it was a good thing that I was forced to take a break.  Didnt understand it at the time, do now.

Its is easy to get discouraged and very hard to get back up again.  I am now doing alot more of my own training which has made a huge difference.

It is good having a forum like this that you can air certain topics and have a wide variety of people with vast experience to help you along the way.

D


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## MJS (Jun 22, 2004)

Storm said:
			
		

> Thanks for that Mike.
> 
> Its funny that you say about taking a break, the guys actually said the same thing at the time that in a way it was a good thing that I was forced to take a break.  Didnt understand it at the time, do now.
> 
> ...



You're welcome!   :asian:   I'm glad that I could offer some advice.  There are many good people on this forum so please keep the questions coming!

Mike


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## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT (Jun 28, 2004)

i have studied 3 styles - muay thai kickboxing, brazillian jiu jitsu and shaolin kempo. i trained in kempo and bjj at the same time. i had been in kempo for over 3years before i had started bjj. i felt to have a good foundation underneath me before i chose to try somthing else while still training in my current style.


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## bujuts (Apr 16, 2006)

I believe one may begin training with others from other systems provided one has a solid base in their core art.  A solid base does not mean X number of forms, Y number of techniques, or Z belt ranking (although, knowledge generally follows rank, but we've all seen exeptions to this rule).

A solid base, I believe, is not just the ability to perform, but also being able to have a solid understanding of that core system such that it may serve as a means of dissecting all other systems.  This is one of the things I have enjoyed most about AK.  Its focus on truly universal principles endows one with an understanding of the fundamentals and mechanics that comprise all systems.  The focus of my training is on the kenpo system, not a "style" called kenpo.

I think there is a threshold level to which one can train in another system.  If I can integrate the lessons into my current base of knowledge without cannibalizing the fundamentals I have already engrained, then it can be a positive experience.  What I don't want to do is let my neutral bow to start changing.  I don't want my hands in a mantis position, and I don't want my fists at my temples.  I don't want to look like a monkey or a tiger, I don't want to trade back and forth with someone attacking with a knife, and I don't want to practice against unrealistic attacks.

Granted, this approach, will may diminsh one's potential for success in the new system.    This is fine, because my core system is still my area of focus.   Terms used to describe this approach have been "investigative inquiry", "cross-referencing", and the like.

In general, you cannot start up in another school as a white belt with a solid understanding of your core system without that new instructor wanting to change your basics.  Bad idea, I believe.  The best approach I have found is to train with other students whose minds are open as your own.  Walk in with the disclaimer that you have no intention of changing your system, but want to learn about how they do things and, more importantly, how your system fairs against theirs.

One more thing that's important, we should be up front and honest with our instructors.  TELL THEM what you are doing.  Share with them your observations, and get their advice.  Only an insecure instructor would be offended by your inquiries, and an amaeteur instructor will have no solutions to your questions.  My own teacher encourages this if we so desire, because he know we will always come back to what he is teaching, and often you come to the realization that you are spending valuable time in something that does not really benefit you.

One final note, training methods have no boundaries.  I occasionally drop into a school to simply watch, because I want to see how they drill, how they condition, how they generate power, what state of mind in which they operate, and how they teach and run their school.  I have learned many conditioning drils by watching a local Kyokushin school (the teacher was promoted to 5th dan under Mas Oyama - needless to say he can get the job done, and so can his students).   Sometimes I walk out of a school I visit within a short time, other times its worth watching.

Good topic,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## celtic_crippler (Apr 17, 2006)

Typically, most systems grant black belt rank to those considered to be experts in that style. It can take a lifetime to explore and master a particular art, but if you chose not to master one and instead crosstrain, you should at least put the time in required to grasp the information and that usually means becoming an expert...which could be brown belt in some styles, but a high rank none the less. 
IMHO.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 19, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> In general, you cannot start up in another school as a white belt with a solid understanding of your core system without that new instructor wanting to change your basics. Bad idea, I believe. The best approach I have found is to train with other students whose minds are open as your own. Walk in with the disclaimer that you have no intention of changing your system, but want to learn about how they do things and, more importantly, how your system fairs against theirs.


 
I understand what you are saying and I see the point you are making.  I would like to suggest an alternate viewpoint, however.

Some systems are radically different, and you cannot experience them without changing your basics.  If you want to explore that system, you have to play along and do what they tell you or you will have a non-experience.  If you decide not to do this because you don't want to risk interrupting your base art, that's ok, but then you cannot experience this other art.

I also believe that you can practice more than one art, even if they are quite different, and even if their basics contradict each other.  Just don't mix them when you practice them.  Keep you kenpo separate from your white crane separate from your wing chun separate from your capoeira.  In each of these arts, the stances are quite different, punching is different, and power generation is different.  But I practice all four and I think they actually support each other quite well.

the other thought is that if you explore another art, it just might speak to you in a way that you didn't expect, and in a way that your original art doesn't.  You might find a new love, but you need to be willing to experience the art to discover this.  You might change your mind about what your main art will be.

My two cents...


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## green meanie (May 6, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying and I see the point you are making. I would like to suggest an alternate viewpoint, however.
> 
> Some systems are radically different, and you cannot experience them without changing your basics. If you want to explore that system, you have to play along and do what they tell you or you will have a non-experience. If you decide not to do this because you don't want to risk interrupting your base art, that's ok, but then you cannot experience this other art.


 
I agree. If you're going to try another art out I think you need to try to put your art on the shelf (at least during the practice anyway) and go into the new art with an open mind. It's the only real way to give it a chance.


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## Carol (May 7, 2006)

In a way I feel like I already do.  The instructors at my school all trained in other arts (two have black belts in other arts) before earning their BB in Kenpo.  We have touched upon other arts in clubs, seperate classes, and sometimes during class.

What I get out of it...it's offered a little bit of exposure to other arts, without requiring a commitment to them.  Plus I had the added bonus of having my instructors relate to how everything they shoed us can mesh in to Kenpo.  Iaido, for example, reinforces the importance of precise footwork, and how the body will move where the feet are pointed, and how one can be clued in to an attacker's movement by noticing the feet of one's attacker.   Working with the bokken also made my strikes a lot better...it built up my arms enough to make my strikes a lot better.  Several of my classmates noticed an improvement when I hit them


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## Henderson (May 26, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Several of my classmates noticed an improvement when I hit them


 
The proof is in the pudding!


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