# Krav Maga as self defense option



## John Lacy (Aug 11, 2005)

I have a question to those that have more experience in the MA's or MMA's. I was wondering what thoughts anyone had on Krav Maga and its application as a self defense. I read a post from a  beginning student looking for an art form for self defense because he got beat up pretty good after leaving a night club and it seemed to have scarred himn emotionally as well as physically. When reading some of the responses to his questions noone mentioned Krav Maga as a viable option and I just wondered why? any thoughts?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 11, 2005)

John Lacy said:
			
		

> I have a question to those that have more experience in the MA's or MMA's. I was wondering what thoughts anyone had on Krav Maga and its application as a self defense. I read a post from a beginning student looking for an art form for self defense because he got beat up pretty good after leaving a night club and it seemed to have scarred himn emotionally as well as physically. When reading some of the responses to his questions noone mentioned Krav Maga as a viable option and I just wondered why? any thoughts?


Because no one likes Krav Maga! Just Kidding, Just Kidding! Seriously though I'm not sure what your location is but here on my part of the east coast (Maryland, USA) Krav Maga isn't exactly a common name which would explain why few people mention it in terms of self defense.  Also some people look at Krav maga and see blatant similiraties with their systems and scream "Rip Off!"  On Kenponet.com you can view a thread called "Look familiar" or something to that effect where it shows a video of a Krav Maga headlock defense which is nearly identical to an American Kenpo technique called grip of death.  I have a tape series on Krav Maga and from this series it appears to be very simple and direct defense.  But it also appears to leave several unecessary openings due to it's simplified nature.  That's my opinion but it's limited to viewing the 4 or 5 tapes that I have on Krav Maga and comparing notes with my other experiences.  Bottom line, I think Krav Maga works but the fact that it's not widespread is why it isn't mentioned.  But, I do know a few who think that it's too simple and leaves too many openings for things to do wrong.  Hope this helps.


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## Paul Genge (Aug 11, 2005)

Probably because none of the people who answered do Krav Maga.

Pauk Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)


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## Blindside (Aug 11, 2005)

Any style or system of self-defense is as good as its instructor, I suspect that most people haven't been exposed to a good Krav Maga instructor.  When you look at Krav Maga marketing in the US, you will see that you can attend one week classes to become certified as a Krav instructor (see www.kravmaga.com under certification/licensing).  That right there sends up big red flags and warning lights, a week doesn't even scratch the surface of training needs to be proficient or even decent at a martial art.  I have second-hand reports of very good krav instructors, but given that particular marketing scheme, I'm hard pressed to recommend it to anyone, because the odds are most instructors just aren't that good.

Lamont


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 11, 2005)

Well I can give you guys an update. Walter Justice had his hours changed at work and I will not be able to attend classes by him due scheudle conflicts. So I went to the Krav Maga Center in here in Kansas City Metro area and will be going there this Monday the 15th of this month for an intro class and give you all a report. 

Sincerely,

Mark E. Weiser


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## Flatlander (Aug 11, 2005)

Cool.  Thanks Mark. :asian:


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## MJS (Aug 11, 2005)

John Lacy said:
			
		

> I have a question to those that have more experience in the MA's or MMA's. I was wondering what thoughts anyone had on Krav Maga and its application as a self defense. I read a post from a  beginning student looking for an art form for self defense because he got beat up pretty good after leaving a night club and it seemed to have scarred himn emotionally as well as physically. When reading some of the responses to his questions noone mentioned Krav Maga as a viable option and I just wondered why? any thoughts?



Hi John-  

I have some basic knowledge of Krav, so I'll give my thoughts on it.  From what I've been exposed to, I was pretty impressed for the most part.  Its definately a no nonsense art, quick, simple and to the point!  There has been some controversy about the weapon disarms.  For someone who wants an effective art that is simple to learn, Krav is the way to go.

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 12, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Hi John-
> 
> I have some basic knowledge of Krav, so I'll give my thoughts on it. From what I've been exposed to, I was pretty impressed for the most part. Its definately a no nonsense art, quick, simple and to the point! There has been some controversy about the weapon disarms. For someone who wants an effective art that is simple to learn, Krav is the way to go.
> 
> Mike


Yep, as long as you don't do the grab the gun barrel/slide and punch him weapon disarms. Those disarms will get someone killed in my unfortunately experienced opinion and thus I label them......







But the empty hand stuff works, just leaves holes if your attacker is experienced/seasoned in Martial Arts which doesn't exactly fall under the statistical data of an average mugger. At least not in my area.


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## MJS (Aug 12, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Yep, as long as you don't do the grab the gun barrel/slide and punch him weapon disarms. Those disarms will get someone killed in my unfortunately experienced opinion and thus I label them......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes Sir, you're correct on that one!!!  Thats the thing that brought some questions to my mind, when I saw the weapon disarms.  I've seen better gun disarms and as for the knife...I think I'll stay with the ones from the FMA's.

Mike


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## John Lacy (Aug 12, 2005)

Thanks for all the thoughts. I have been training in Krav and truly do like the no nonsense approach.I guess the thing that drew me to Krav is that it sees the other self defense disciplines as an ally. In its insignia the circle is open, the reason is to let the knowledge of the other art forms flow in and out as Krav is an everchanging self defense. However, unless you live in Hollywood I have never seen an assailant walk up to their victim  close enough so as to be disarmed. The knife is another story. I would appreciate it if anyone knows of a site to look at, concerning knife defense.


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## Jerry (Aug 12, 2005)

> I have a tape series on Krav Maga and from this series it appears to be very simple and direct defense. But it also appears to leave several unecessary openings due to it's simplified nature. That's my opinion but it's limited to viewing the 4 or 5 tapes that I have on Krav Maga and comparing notes with my other experiences.


 That's also my impression of the bits I've seen.



> I would appreciate it if anyone knows of a site to look at, concerning knife defense.


 Could you be mroe specific? Are you looking for ideas on how an art deals with knife defence (http://www.clearsilat.com/silat), or are you looking to elarn knifework online (I'm not aware of any sites with that).


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## still learning (Aug 12, 2005)

Hello, It seems to be growing in populality.  Black Belt magazine had a great article on it.  

 But research others too, in your area and visit as many schools and get the feel of what you really may want to learn from.

 Avoidance, Awareness is best choice............fighting back can get you in Jail, hospital, or the morgue.......................Aloha


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 12, 2005)

Looking into the hstory of this MA. They claim to have perfected this Art on the Battlefield of the Middle East with ground troops and in covert operations and security patrols with armed combatants and now it is gaining popularity in Law Enforcement.


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## MJS (Aug 12, 2005)

Regarding the weapon defense, I think it would be interesting to hear of any success stories with the use of the KM defenses.  I'm no gun expert, and I have heard mixed thoughts on the gun defense in regards to grabbing the slide.  As for the knife..IMO its key to gain control of the weapon arm ASAP.  Control and then work a disarm/defense from there.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 13, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Regarding the weapon defense, I think it would be interesting to hear of any success stories with the use of the KM defenses. I'm no gun expert, and I have heard mixed thoughts on the gun defense in regards to grabbing the slide. As for the knife..IMO its key to gain control of the weapon arm ASAP. Control and then work a disarm/defense from there.


There's a whole thread about Kenpo gun defenses and grabbing the slide on this forum that you would probably want to checkout.  I don't know how to put the link here yet or i'd do it.  Just search for "Kenpo gun techniques" in the kenpo Technical section.  Interesting discussion on the whole "grab the slide theory" which is the majority of what I've seen from the Krav Maga gun techniques.  From personal experience grabbing the slide is not option number 1.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 16, 2005)

Okay here it goes. I attended and watched a Level One Krav Maga Class here in the Overland Park Kansas Area. 

The class could have been taught in a more structured format however the basics I seen were good in getting people to understand street/combative situations. How to use max body alignment with the least effort.  

At level one the netural stance is both feet in a narrow horse stance with hands open and at chest level. Krav Maga students are taught to block/strike with arms at 90 degree angle with all the body weight forward on your toes when you block giving you reach and momentum for elbow, fist or knee strikes.  Not bad from what I saw. 

Students are encouraged to go all out when throwing blows and knee strikes with the other student holding protective bags/pads.  The instructor is getting them ready for actual fighting which is good. 

Also the warm ups were intense with running in a circular pattern around the dojo while doing windmills with alternate arms forward and backwards. Situps at fast pace for 20 - 30 second time frames, push-ups in the same manner. 

When the Level two students came back in for the close of class there was not a dry spot on the clothes they were wearing. We all heard them being slammed aganist the walls in the next room. They were working on chokes and wall defenses. 

There was about 20 students in each level of classes. The Instructor was very good in detailing why these techniques were to be done


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## searcher (Aug 16, 2005)

Sounds like fun.   Where in OP are the classes held?   I would like to observe.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 16, 2005)

Here is the website for the Training Center

Overland Park KS Krav Maga Training Center

The cost is as follows 

Month to Month  $110 per Month
6 months  $95 Per Month 
12 months $90 per month 

You will need hand wraps for wrist support for bag work $14 
Mouth Piece $14 
Groin Protection $15 
White Krav Maga Shirt $17 
Colored Shirt $25

Also they do automatic payments only


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## Loki (Aug 16, 2005)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> http://www.kravmagaKC.com/
> The cost is as follows
> 
> Month to Month  $110 per Month
> ...


 Wow. People really run things differently in America. My mouth piece cost me less than a fifth of that. I guess America is a better place to make money off MAs if you're paying over $90/month. I pay 150 NIS/month and train twice a week. That's rought $33. How many sessions can you attend for what you're paying?


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## Loki (Aug 16, 2005)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Looking into the hstory of this MA. They claim to have perfected this Art on the Battlefield of the Middle East with ground troops and in covert operations and security patrols with armed combatants and now it is gaining popularity in Law Enforcement.


 Not exactly true. The style was initially developed for the military. When Imi (the founder) was discharged, he began adjusting it to civilian needs, which is what we learn today. As discussed here, the military don't use it half as much as everyone seems to think they do. It's come a very long way since the 1950's. It's still being perfected. Trust me.

 As for everyone who mentioned the whole barrel issue with the handgun defenses, I personally couldn't agree more. Guns have slides today. The techniques have to be changed.


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## Loki (Aug 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Regarding the weapon defense, I think it would be interesting to hear of any success stories with the use of the KM defenses.


 Check this out. Not a success story, but still a good laugh.

 Kenpojujitsu3, great flag!


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Check this out. Not a success story, but still a good laugh.
> 
> Kenpojujitsu3, great flag!



Welcome back to the forum!!  I hadn't seen you posting much, and was hoping that since you train in KM, that you'd see this thread and give some input.  

BTW, thanks for posting that story!  While it may not be considered a 'success' in the way of a life/death situation, it was still a success in the fact that this guy didn't get shot!

Mike


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## searcher (Aug 16, 2005)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Here is the website for the Training Center
> 
> Overland Park KS Krav Maga Training Center
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info.   I guess that I am going to start charging more.   It is over double what I charge my students.


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## John Lacy (Aug 16, 2005)

Searcher, Loki,
The monthly dues are about right on a national average scale. However the T-shirt is usually given. The mouth piece is $4 at your local store and the dark shirt can be your own. Please spare no expense when buying groin protectio (lol) it is surely the most important piece of equipment. But the other item not on the list is shin guards ( at least until the shin is in the condition of a Thai Kickboxer).


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## Loki (Aug 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Welcome back to the forum!! I hadn't seen you posting much, and was hoping that since you train in KM, that you'd see this thread and give some input.
> 
> BTW, thanks for posting that story! While it may not be considered a 'success' in the way of a life/death situation, it was still a success in the fact that this guy didn't get shot!
> 
> Mike


 Thanks Mike. I think I had Krav Maga overkill this year, so I took the summer off. Plus, I busted my foot (which reminds me that I should post my own "success story"). I guess that affected my interest in MT as well, but it's good to be back.

 I may have not relayed the story accurately. He DID get shot. He just didn't die ;-)


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Thanks Mike. I think I had Krav Maga overkill this year, so I took the summer off. Plus, I busted my foot (which reminds me that I should post my own "success story"). I guess that affected my interest in MT as well, but it's good to be back.



Hey, we all need a break from time to time. :ultracool   Sorry to hear about your foot.  What happened??



> I may have not relayed the story accurately. He DID get shot. He just didn't die ;-)



I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the weapon defense.  

Mike


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## Loki (Aug 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Hey, we all need a break from time to time. :ultracool   Sorry to hear about your foot.  What happened??


  Check back soon (very soon) in the Horror Stories section.



> I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the weapon defense.


 The weapon defense in question is one of seven standard ones. It's applied when someone threatens with a gun at point-blank range from the front, either to the forehead or torso. Your initial movement is to grab the gun by the barrel with your left hand (assuming he's right-handed) and pushing it inwards while turning your shoulders to avert the barrel and applying body weight to prevent counter-action.

 This does indeed pose a problem as many modern guns have slides, which can cut your hand easily if you hold it when the gun fires. A fellow practitioner, a policeman, brought this to my attention. I personally see it as much better to grab at the wrist and avert the barrel with the shoulder-turning motion then.

 All the Krav Maga instructors in my organization are having a series of meetings in order to straighten out any professional differences between them. I've asked that they address the slide issue.

 I'll try to make a clip and have Kaith post it to clarify what I'm talking about.


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## arnisador (Aug 16, 2005)

I think it's a good, simple system. If you really enjoy the martial arts, you may find yourself hungry for more.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 19, 2005)

My oppoin is based on an experiment I heard of. This is what the guy did (we'll call him bob). Now bob was a certified Krav Maga teacher, and Shotokan black belt. He also taught a self-defense class that was mostly Shotokan and free style wrestling. He wanted to see how long it would take some one to go with practicing the martial arts/self defense system and still make it effective. So what did he do? Well he paid one of his self defense people (we'll call her defender 1) to be in a "street style fight" (U.F.C. rules I guess) right after his class, the end result of this little fight against a random dude just out of college (we'll call him attacker 1), on a side note he had done wrestling since he was in middle school. Now the end result of the fight? Defender 1 beat the crap out of attacker 1. Bob redid this with two other sets of people. Know defender 3 lost the fight, but two won. He did the same thing with his Krav magi students, 3 people, in three fights; none of the attackers had much training in martial arts aside from wrestling or boxing. Once again the defenders won. He then did the same with his Shotokan students. Then he had his self defense students come back (three days later actually), this time however the defenders had forgotten how to do what they had been taught, and all lost.  He thought that it would take three times the time you learnt some thing to forget it, but for the sake of science he had them come back after three days, they how ever had won. So three weeks later (three times the number of days it took to learn Krav Maga from him) he had them come back. The end, his Krav Maga students lost. He then did the same with his Shotokan students, three days, three weeks, three, and then three years. He had actually paid them to NOT train, since very few people train a self-defense class after they are done with it. They still won. So he waited until it had been nine years, guess what, they lost. So the conclusion of his experiment is what he thought it would be. It takes you three times the amount of time you learned some thing to forget how to do it. After this his black belt students went back to training with bob. And bob started doing judo and stopped teaching Krav Maga and his self-defense class. So if you don't quite get what i'm getting at, go for it but keep training at it or it may come up and bite you in the -blank-

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,



John


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 19, 2005)

coungnhuka said:
			
		

> My oppoin is based on an experiment I heard of. This is what the guy did (we'll call him bob). Now bob was a certified Krav Maga teacher, and Shotokan black belt. He also taught a self-defense class that was mostly Shotokan and free style wrestling. He wanted to see how long it would take some one to go with practicing the martial arts/self defense system and still make it effective. So what did he do? Well he paid one of his self defense people (we'll call her defender 1) to be in a "street style fight" (U.F.C. rules I guess) right after his class, the end result of this little fight against a random dude just out of college (we'll call him attacker 1), on a side note he had done wrestling since he was in middle school. Now the end result of the fight? Defender 1 beat the crap out of attacker 1. Bob redid this with two other sets of people. Know defender 3 lost the fight, but two won. He did the same thing with his Krav magi students, 3 people, in three fights; none of the attackers had much training in martial arts aside from wrestling or boxing. Once again the defenders won. He then did the same with his Shotokan students. Then he had his self defense students come back (three days later actually), this time however the defenders had forgotten how to do what they had been taught, and all lost. He thought that it would take three times the time you learnt some thing to forget it, but for the sake of science he had them come back after three days, they how ever had won. So three weeks later (three times the number of days it took to learn Krav Maga from him) he had them come back. The end, his Krav Maga students lost. He then did the same with his Shotokan students, three days, three weeks, three, and then three years. He had actually paid them to NOT train, since very few people train a self-defense class after they are done with it. They still won. So he waited until it had been nine years, guess what, they lost. So the conclusion of his experiment is what he thought it would be. It takes you three times the amount of time you learned some thing to forget how to do it. After this his black belt students went back to training with bob. And bob started doing judo and stopped teaching Krav Maga and his self-defense class. So if you don't quite get what i'm getting at, go for it but keep training at it or it may come up and bite you in the -blank-
> 
> Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,
> 
> ...


Nevermind the 'minor' details of aging and physiology in this *suppossed* experiment. Hmmmm.....wait nine years, don't train, give up something you love for nine years, lose your conditioning, cardio, muscle tone, etc. Then fight a young wrestler/boxer from college (someone with conditioning, cardio, muscle tone, youth, etc.) Then blame the loss on "forgetting the training and techniques"? Very interesting experiment indeed. Totally non-scientific and most probably *not true*. Makes a good story though. Who told you something like this 'cause whoever made this up needs to get the flag. which flag you ask?

:bs:
This one.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 19, 2005)

yah i know it sounds wierd. i then it all was wrapped up about 5 years ago and "bob" payed these guys about a ten thousand dollars in the end. and they only stoped practicing techinque. they all kept doing some form of exersice. i think it saide that two of them started doing yoga and the other dude started some kind of dance class (ballet i think). the directness of this acctuly being true (you know this acctuly happened or the dude just put this as prove of what he was saying). either way if stop doing a self defense martial arts (or really any thing), your going to forget it relitvly quickly if you don't practive it. really knida my point at puting this done.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## Loki (Aug 19, 2005)

kravmaga





			
				coungnhuka said:
			
		

> yah i know it sounds wierd. i then it all was wrapped up about 5 years ago and "bob" payed these guys about a ten thousand dollars in the end. and they only stoped practicing techinque. they all kept doing some form of exersice. i think it saide that two of them started doing yoga and the other dude started some kind of dance class (ballet i think). the directness of this acctuly being true (you know this acctuly happened or the dude just put this as prove of what he was saying). either way if stop doing a self defense martial arts (or really any thing), your going to forget it relitvly quickly if you don't practive it. really knida my point at puting this done.
> 
> Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,
> 
> John


 I didn't really get who was fighting who and how and why the experiment went along, but assuming it was wrapped up five years ago (2000), and it lasted over nine years (1991), you start off at a date where Krav Maga students don't exist outside of Israel.

 kenpojujitsu3, love that flag...


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 21, 2005)

And once again I didn't really think that ever actually happened and the guy made that up as a way to prove a point. Any who do think that is at all realistic? You know about the right amount of time passed. Do think it would take about that amount of time for your body to forget how the techniques should be done. And yes I realize that i'm getting off track.



Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,



John


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