# Mister (Miss), Master...what's in the term SBN?



## IcemanSK

Here in the US, we seem to be confused about the term sa bum nim & the English word master. I'm looking for clarity amongst my KMA brethren to better understand the Korean term SBN versus how the term master is used here in the US among KMA folks.

My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong on this. 
1) SBN does not translate as master in Korean. 
2) SBN only refers to the main teacher of a dojang: not just any BB who is 4th Dan or higher. (Based on the Kukkiwon requirement of being 4th Dan or higher to open a school: Your mileage may vary).
3) The owner of a dojang (often not the main teacher) would be the kwan jang nim.
4) SBN is a title of function, rather than rank.

In my nearly 30 years of training, I've never gotten a clear understanding of the term. My first instructor (a Korean) was a 5th Dan KKW. We called him Mr. Kim & SBN, but if someone asked "who is your master?" "Mr. Yun Kil Kim," was our reply. His business card even said "Mr. Yun Kil Kim, Master Instructor."

Certainly, one can call themselves whatever title they wish. I'm not calling anyone out on what they were told. I'm just trying to understand the translation of SBN.

I have other questions about this. But I'll start with getting a better understanding of this so far.

Thanks!


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## Omar B

I was never clear on it either but when I was doing a Korean style (Choi Kwang Do) we refereed to our SBN and his two sons who also taught as "Coach."  But then it was not a very formal dojang.  But I like using Coach.


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## shesulsa

This is my understanding for my style:

Jo Kyo Nim:  Assistant Instructor
Kyo Sa Nim:  Instructor (has own club/school)
(Boo) Sa Bum Nim: Head Instructor 
(Soo Suk) Sa Bum Nim: Chief Instructor (owns dojang)
Kwan Jang Nim: Master Instructor
Kwan Jang Nim or Dosa Nim: Master
(Soo Suk) Kwan Jang Nim - Chief Master
Kuk Sa Nim: Grand Master
Kuk Sun Nim: Chief Grand Master
Do Joo Nim: Supreme Grand Master / Owner of style


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## granfire

I have not heard anybody address somebody with 'Master' But refer to it in context, like 'Master Soandso held class' or whatever the case. It's usually Sir or Ma'am around here talking to the person.


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## Dave Leverich

Kwan Jang (nim) is generally referring to the head of a Kwan or style. IE. Chung Do Kwan, has one 'head' which is the Kwan Jang of that 'gym'. 

I've been introduced as Sa Bum Nim from one Korean master to another, not sure if they meant master/instructor etc. We never used to use 'master' except for like 7th dan+ back ages ago. Honestly I think 'master' and all the chief/senior/grand etc, are more of an American blend that then went back to Korea. (could be wrong, just seems more 90s+).


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## Daniel Sullivan

I believe, and I could be mistaken, that the term actually means teacher/father.  Whatever it means, I am pretty sure that it does not translate as master.

Daniel


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## FearlessFreep

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I believe, and I could be mistaken, that the term actually means teacher/father.  Whatever it means, I am pretty sure that it does not translate as master.
> 
> Daniel



AFAIK the term actually just means "school owner" and can apply just as well to the guy who owns the gym who hands you the towels coming in but has absolutely no training or experience.  However in MA terms it has come to mean much more.

But then, I've heard the terms used to designate both position and rank: Kyo-Sah-Nihm is either an Assistant Instructor or it means a 1-3 Dan.  Sah-Buh-Nihm means either Instructor or 4-6 Dan.  Similarly I've seen the terms change.  In the more formal kids/families classes they refer to our head instructor was Kwan-Jah-Nihm, however when *his* instructor comes in town, our instructor goes by Sah-buh-nihm and his instructor takes on the term Kwan-Jah-Nihm.  So that seems to be more position than rank based.  But throughout that, I've been crossing between TKF and HKD so...

The OP is likely to get as many, valid, answers as there are schools


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## DMcHenry

Each style/art/school may decide on their own titles and varies quite a bit.

Looking them up in a Korean Dictionary, KyoSa (nim) is a teacher, SaBom (nim) is a master instructor/teacher/coach, and a KwanJang (nim) is a school or building owner.

As previously stated, most I've come across in the US us the term Kyosa for instructor, Sabom for master, and KwanJang for the head of the kwan, or Grandmaster.  From my understanding, in Korea there wasn't specifically a term for "Grandmaster".  {shrug}

You just have to go by what ever your organization uses for titles.

For general "Mr." is songsang (nim).


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## FearlessFreep

DMcHenry said:


> From my understanding, in Korea there wasn't specifically a term for "Grandmaster".  {shrug}.



Soke?


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## Daniel Sullivan

DMcHenry said:


> From my understanding, in Korea there wasn't specifically a term for "Grandmaster".  {shrug}


So far as I know, this is the case with pretty much all Asian arts.  Grandmaster was a term invented when arts were imported to the west.



DMcHenry said:


> You just have to go by what ever your organization uses for titles.
> 
> For general "Mr." is songsang (nim).


Good to know!

Daniel


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## SahBumNimRush

Well I do not profess to use the terms "properly," but in our association we use:

Jo Kyo Nim:  Assistant/Junior Instructor (typically 1st dan)

Boo Sah Bum Nim:  Instructor (2nd and 3rd dan)

Sah Bum Nim: Head Instructor (the one instructing the class, 4th dan and higher, i.e. If there were two 4th dans, a 5th dan, and a 7th dan at one class, the 7th dan is the only one who assumes the title as Sah Bum Nim)

Kwan Jang Nim: Head of the Association

None of which denote Master, Grandmaster, etc.. .   Although to be a Sah Bum Nim you have to be a Master Instructor (Association Master is 4th dan, Master is 5th dan and higher)

Grandmaster is the Head of the Association, so there's only one grandmaster, and sometimes none.  We never regarded our Kwan Jang Nim as a Grandmaster until he tested for 9th dan, and we had a couple Master Instructors under him.


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## MSUTKD

I have transliterated the terms for all of you. Read and learn.​ 

&#20808;&#29983;​ 
_*Xi**&#257;**n sh**&#275;**ng* &#8211; Chinese    *Sen sei &#8211; *Japanese    *S&#335;n saeng* &#8211; Korean_​ 
The word for _teacher_ (*&#20808;&#29983;*) is formed with a combination of two characters. The first (*&#20808;*) is composed of the radicals (*&#20799;*), _two legs walking_, and (*&#20043;*) _progress_. The second radical (*&#20043;*) is actually altered from(*&#23662;*) _a growing plant_ and (*&#19968;*) _the horizon_. The second character (*&#29983;*) is composed of the radicals (*&#23662;*), _a growing plant_ and (*&#22303;*) _the earth_. The interpretation hidden in these characters is the quintessential definition of a teacher: one who has grown and walked ahead of the new growth or _one who has gone before_. The teacher is defined by his or her experience, which has been gained by going before the student.

______________________________________________________________________________________


&#24107;&#29238;​*S**&#299;** f**ù*_ &#8211; Chinese     *Shi Chi &#8211; *Japanese     *Sa b*_*&#363;*_ &#8211; Korean_​ 
Another word for teacher commonly used in Chinese styles is (*&#24107;**&#29238;*). This word is composed of two characters (*&#24107;*) an (*&#29238;*). The first character contains two radicals (*&#38428;*) _hills_ or _legions_ and (*&#21277;*) _encompassing_. The interpretation of this abstract concept is something that can encompass legions, a master or _teacher_. The second character is (*&#29238;*) _father_; thus a teacher who is as close as a father.


______________________________________________________________________________________

&#24107;&#31684;​*S**&#299;** f*_à_*n*_ &#8211; Chinese     *Shi han &#8211; *Japanese     _*Sa b&#335;m*_ &#8211; Korean_​ 
In many Korean styles the term for teacher is (*&#24107;&#31684;*). The word is composed of two characters (*&#24107;*) _teacher_ and (*&#31684;*). The second character contains three radicals (*&#36554;*) _cart_, (*&#31481;*) _bamboo_ and (*&#27710;*) _water springing ahead_ or _law_. An interpretation of this character is a teacher following the cart or an _example_. This word suggests an exemplary teacher, or _one who teaches teachers_.

ron


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## Miles

Don't think you can get any clearer than the etymological explanation from MSUTKD.  I believe the USCDKA refers to a "master" as a "teacher of black belts" and a "grandmaster" as a "teacher of masters."  I believe that is as close an English approximation as one can get from the original Asian concept.


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## Master K

Well said Master Southwick!


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## Nibla

You guys pretty much have it down. In current setting, it's used more as teacher/master.
The 'Nim' part  if anyone's unaware, is just a polite term, and can be left out if used between close friends.


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## MSUTKD

Not can be left out but SHOULD be left out.  You should NEVER refer to yourself as nim.  You do not say , I am Sabum  nim you say, I am a taekwondo sabum.

Korean is not that difficult a language to learn, Chinese characters are very hard but really fun and also revealing.   Everyone tries to copy cultural elements from martial arts without understanding them.  My advice would be to study language for it is the gateway to culture.

ron

p.s.  Using a internet translation program will only get you so far and most of the time it gives a very sterile, incomplete translation.  Use that only as a tool for one word standard text.


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## Daniel Sullivan

MSUTKD said:


> I have transliterated the terms for all of you. Read and learn.​
> 
> &#20808;&#29983;​
> _*Xi**&#257;**n sh**&#275;**ng*  Chinese    *Sen sei  *Japanese    *S&#335;n saeng*  Korean_​
> The word for _teacher_ (*&#20808;&#29983;*) is formed with a combination of two characters. The first (*&#20808;*) is composed of the radicals (*&#20799;*), _two legs walking_, and (*&#20043;*) _progress_. The second radical (*&#20043;*) is actually altered from(*&#23662;*) _a growing plant_ and (*&#19968;*) _the horizon_. The second character (*&#29983;*) is composed of the radicals (*&#23662;*), _a growing plant_ and (*&#22303;*) _the earth_. The interpretation hidden in these characters is the quintessential definition of a teacher: one who has grown and walked ahead of the new growth or _one who has gone before_. The teacher is defined by his or her experience, which has been gained by going before the student.
> 
> 
> &#24107;&#31684;​*S**&#299;** f*_à_*n*_  Chinese     *Shi han  *Japanese     _*Sa b&#335;m*_  Korean_​
> In many Korean styles the term for teacher is (*&#24107;&#31684;*). The word is composed of two characters (*&#24107;*) _teacher_ and (*&#31684;*). The second character contains three radicals (*&#36554;*) _cart_, (*&#31481;*) _bamboo_ and (*&#27710;*) _water springing ahead_ or _law_. An interpretation of this character is a teacher following the cart or an _example_. This word suggests an exemplary teacher, or _one who teaches teachers_.
> 
> ron


So essentially, teacher/sensei would be   [FONT=&quot]sonsaeng [/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#51204;&#49373;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (hanja [/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#20808;&#29983;[/FONT][FONT=&quot])[/FONT] and sabum(nim) is master teacher/shihan.

Daniel


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## Master K

Just to expand on what Master Southwick has stated.  My instructor has taught me that the word Nim is used to communicate respect.  I was told to think of the word Nim to mean "Sir", "Ma'am", or "Honorable".  

When addressing a senior Sabum to use the word Nim.  For instance, if you are a 4th Dan and are speaking to someone who is a 5th Dan, then you refer to that person as Sabumnim.

When addressing a junior Sabum to leave off the word Nim.  For example, if you are a 5th Dan and you are speaking to a 4th Dan, then you call them by their last name and add Sabum to the end of it.

With that said, it is my understanding that some organizations have added in their own intricacies on this.  In conclusion, what I have given is generally correct.  Although your mileage may vary based upon the organization or school you belong to.  I hope this helps.


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## MBuzzy

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So essentially, teacher/sensei would be   [FONT=&quot]sonsaeng [/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#51204;&#49373;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (hanja [/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#20808;&#29983;[/FONT][FONT=&quot])[/FONT] and sabum(nim) is master teacher/shihan.
> 
> Daniel



Kind of....actually the term sonsaengnim is used more as a general term for someone you don't know.  It is most equivalent to "Mr."  While it translates to teacher roughly, it is used in every day life as a substitute when you don't know a person's actual title.  VERY common, you would use this in schools to address almost any student.

Sabom is used for the head instructor, but as said, it is different how the term is assigned in every organization.  It IS NOT really equivalent to Master though.  We use Master as a general term....but unless your organization dictates otherwise, Master really isn't a title in Korea.  For the most part, a black belt under 4th dan would be sonsaeng and above 4th would be sabom.  Where it gets tricky is when individual organizations have different certifications and tests to carry the title Sabom.  In a case where a rank above 4th dan does not carry the title, sonsaeng is appropriate.

Koreans do frequently use Master as an equivalent for Sabom when translating, but it is not a direct translation, more of a shorthand.  Master in English is almost a different concept, closer to Expert than teacher.


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## MBuzzy

Master K said:


> Just to expand on what Master Southwick has stated.  My instructor has taught me that the word Nim is used to communicate respect.  I was told to think of the word Nim to mean "Sir", "Ma'am", or "Honorable".
> 
> When addressing a senior Sabum to use the word Nim.  For instance, if you are a 4th Dan and are speaking to someone who is a 5th Dan, then you refer to that person as Sabumnim.
> 
> When addressing a junior Sabum to leave off the word Nim.  For example, if you are a 5th Dan and you are speaking to a 4th Dan, then you call them by their last name and add Sabum to the end of it.
> 
> With that said, it is my understanding that some organizations have added in their own intricacies on this.  In conclusion, what I have given is generally correct.  Although your mileage may vary based upon the organization or school you belong to.  I hope this helps.



Just to clarify a bit further, you are correct that nim is a term of respect used for those "higher" than you, either in rank, authority, or age.  So a 50 year old white belt may use the term nim with a 25 year old black belt.  But in everyday life, it is much more based on age.  In fact, in Korean culture almost EVERYTHING is based on age.  

But I digress, the point of clarification is that nim is not really synonymous with sir or ma'am.  I make this point because it CANNOT stand alone.  Nim is what is known as an honorific.  There IS NO translation to English.  In fact, we don't even have an equivalence for honorifics.  Well, in a sense we do.  In Korean, there are varying levels of speech.

Example:  If I'm speaking to someone older than myself or someone I don't know (formal), I would say "Craig &#51077;&#45768;&#45796;" (I am Craig; Craig imnida).  But if I was talking to someone I knew or someone younger or my age, I would say "Craig &#51060;&#50640;&#50836;" (I am Craig, Craig ieyo).  They mean the same thing, but in different honorific contexts.  This is true with EVERY SENTENCE....even thank you has different levels.  Kahmsahamnida, komapsumnida and komawoyo are all different respect levels for thank you....all mean exactly the same thing. 

I say that we have an equivalence in a sense, because you will speak differently to a child than you would an elder or the president....it is just an intrinsic part of EVERY SENTENCE to the Koreans.

So please don't go ahead saying "Yes, Nim!"....just doesn't work!  it is ONLY an ending, not a word on its own.  In fact, they don't even use sir most of the time....no need when the respect is dripping from every word!


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## MBuzzy

Ok - Kwanjangnim is technically head of school, although many styles and scools use it just for individual school or building owner as opposed to style.  Choonjaenim is another way to say it and is closer to meaning head of style.


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## Nibla

MSUTKD said:


> Not can be left out but SHOULD be left out.  You should NEVER refer to yourself as nim.  You do not say , I am Sabum  nim you say, I am a taekwondo sabum.
> 
> Korean is not that difficult a language to learn, Chinese characters are very hard but really fun and also revealing.   Everyone tries to copy cultural elements from martial arts without understanding them.  My advice would be to study language for it is the gateway to culture.
> 
> ron
> 
> p.s.  Using a internet translation program will only get you so far and most of the time it gives a very sterile, incomplete translation.  Use that only as a tool for one word standard text.



I didn't say introducing yourself, but inbetween close friends. For eg. I could say "Hey, Kim sabu(m)" or just call them by their name. But yes, introducing yourself you should always put yourself lower than the other.

And as for the Nim and age connection, it's standard for 2 Koreans that don't know each other to speak to eachother in the polite/honoring fashion, even at late teens - early twenties age. Once you realise you are the same age, you can both agree to drop it, or an older person can suggest they drop it. This may or may not happen, especially if you are not going to be talking for that long, etc.

Source? Being Korean...


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## MSUTKD

Nibla,

That was not directed at you at all! I was pointing out that many non-Koreans use nim all the time when referring to themselves. I have seen it used on business cards, on belts  where they put their name- such as sabumnim randomlastname on students belts ???, and other written areas. I would put this in the same category as referring to myself as El Conquistador Southwick. If they want to call me that then okay (honorifically of course) but to use it as a title is actually arrogant or in most cases ignorant (because they do not understand the language).


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## IcemanSK

*Note to self. Cancel "El Conquistador" belt order*:uhyeah:


I appreciate all of your responses a great deal. I had a feeling this term was misunderstood in the US. I understand too that it's easier for an instructor to tell students "call me SBN" & to say little else about it, than to go into a detailed meaning of the term & it's correct usage.


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## Archtkd

MSUTKD said:


> Nibla,
> 
> That was not directed at you at all! I was pointing out that many non-Koreans use nim all the time when referring to themselves. I have seen it used on business cards, on belts  where they put their name- such as sabumnim randomlastname on students belts ???, and other written areas. I would put this in the same category as referring to myself as El Conquistador Southwick. If they want to call me that then okay (honorifically of course) but to use it as a title is actually arrogant or in most cases ignorant (because they do not understand the language).



Master Southwick. Thanks for the clarification on "nim".

Quick questions in that regard. If you are instructing a class and you are giving the opening "bow to the flags and bow to the instructor" commands should  you just use sabum -- in reference to yourself? If one of the junior students is giving the command should they then use sabumnim -- in reference to you? Actually should an instructor  give the opening bow commands in their class or always relegate that duty to a lower ranking student -- something I've seen many of my teachers do?


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## MSUTKD

I am old school so there is no, Sabumnim Kae when we bow. Just Charyeot, Kyung rhea; that you are bowing to the instructor is implied. I have seen 1000s of variations in the US, but the lower student could say it with nim, the instructor would not say it about himself if he was commanding. Lets see if Nibla chimes in.


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## MSUTKD

icemansk said:


> *note to self. Cancel "el conquistador" belt order*:uhyeah:


 

lol!


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## MBuzzy

MSUTKD said:


> I am old school so there is no, Sabumnim Kae when we bow. Just Charyeot, Kyung rhea; that you are bowing to the instructor is implied. I have seen 1000s of variations in the US, but the lower student could say it with nim, the instructor would not say it about himself if he was commanding. Lets see if Nibla chimes in.


 
Every SBN that I trained with in Korea didn't say sabom at all.  Usually just kyung rhea.


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## Nibla

No problem MSUTKD, I wasn't sure if it was directed at me or not but just wanted to clarify. 

I think the usage of the word is a little muddled, as I've seen it on Korean business cards too, but in most cases the nim part is left out. It is a little pretentious to use it on yourself though. 

As per usage in schools, I don't have any adult/real experience with TKD, so can't comment accurately, but if a lower student is referring to the SBN, then sure, the nim should come in. This would be if the student is leading the warm up/kyung re part with the instructor standing by the side or something. Again, I'm not sure what the normal routine is, so the words used may differ...

Should've known better than stick my nose in the KMA forums eh?


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## Master K

MBuzzy said:


> Just to clarify a bit further, you are correct that nim is a term of respect used for those "higher" than you, either in rank, authority, or age. So a 50 year old white belt may use the term nim with a 25 year old black belt. But in everyday life, it is much more based on age. In fact, in Korean culture almost EVERYTHING is based on age.
> 
> But I digress, the point of clarification is that nim is not really synonymous with sir or ma'am. I make this point because it CANNOT stand alone. Nim is what is known as an honorific. There IS NO translation to English. In fact, we don't even have an equivalence for honorifics. Well, in a sense we do. In Korean, there are varying levels of speech.
> 
> Example: If I'm speaking to someone older than myself or someone I don't know (formal), I would say "Craig &#51077;&#45768;&#45796;" (I am Craig; Craig imnida). But if I was talking to someone I knew or someone younger or my age, I would say "Craig &#51060;&#50640;&#50836;" (I am Craig, Craig ieyo). They mean the same thing, but in different honorific contexts. This is true with EVERY SENTENCE....even thank you has different levels. Kahmsahamnida, komapsumnida and komawoyo are all different respect levels for thank you....all mean exactly the same thing.
> 
> I say that we have an equivalence in a sense, because you will speak differently to a child than you would an elder or the president....it is just an intrinsic part of EVERY SENTENCE to the Koreans.
> 
> So please don't go ahead saying "Yes, Nim!"....just doesn't work! it is ONLY an ending, not a word on its own. In fact, they don't even use sir most of the time....no need when the respect is dripping from every word!



You are correct in that I should have been more clear.  It is true that NIM is an honorific.  And I was told to think of it as such.  I failed to articulate that better.  Thanks for clarifying it.


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## MBuzzy

Master K said:


> You are correct in that I should have been more clear.  It is true that NIM is an honorific.  And I was told to think of it as such.  I failed to articulate that better.  Thanks for clarifying it.



No problem, it is just a confusing topic for most people and I have actually heard people say "Yes, nim!"  and just.....wow.....


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## wade

Too much Saki and too many readings of the crap y'all are coming up with. Good for a late night boredom but OMG! I gotta ask, are y'all really for real?


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## MBuzzy

wade said:


> Too much Saki and too many readings of the crap y'all are coming up with. Good for a late night boredom but OMG! I gotta ask, are y'all really for real?


 
Koreans don't drink Sake, they drink Soju, completely different drink and MUCH better.

Yep, 100% for real.  I have been studying the Korean language for a few years now.  Being proficient in Korean is not an easy task, but when training there and with Koreans, it makes a huge impact.  It opens a lot of doors for you in the country.  I also see it as a way to pay tribute to my style of martial arts by respecting their culture enough to learn their ways and language.  Plus, I lived there for a year, I love the country, love the people, and the culture is incredible.

Plus, if I speak proficiently enough, the Military pays me $400 a month in language bonus....so I spend about an hour a day studying - and when I go BACK to Korea, either to live or visit, there are so many things that I want to do that I couldn't due to lack of language skills.


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## MBuzzy

Oh yeah.....and let's say FOR EXAMPLE, you are meeting the head of your style.  A very old, traditional Korean, possibly even FROM Korea.  Using the improper honorifics, while it may be understood, since you are not Korean, is VERY disrespectful.  Addressing them properly says volumes to a Korean about your character and dedication.

The difference between "Craig imnida" and "Craig isseoyo" can be huge.


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## CanadianKyosa

Daniel Sullivan said:


> So far as I know, this is the case with pretty much all Asian arts.  Grandmaster was a term invented when arts were imported to the west.
> 
> 
> Good to know!
> 
> Daniel




Sonsaeng is not used to indicate SIr/Ma'am. It is the title used to speak to a teacher who is in the position of a kyosa or kyosu. The latter two words are only used to speak indirectly about a teacher, never using -nim. What you would do is say is "Park is (a) kyosu/kyosu." If you spoke to Park directly, then you would use sonsaeng(nim) (note that sonsaeng may be used separate also, as I understand)> What I am saying is that in the martial arts, a kyosa is, improperly, addressed as kyosanim while they should be addressed as sonsaengnim. Also, sabeom means exactly the same as kyosa but is only used in martial arts.Also, titles are ALWAYS used after the name and NEVER before. To do the latter is rude.


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## CanadianKyosa

*Roughly 

Dahnbo =apprentice black belt (2+ black stripes on brown)
Chokyo = assistant teacher
Gyosa/Kyosu (gyosu is university only) = teacher/professor
Pusabeom (p is the correct sound) = under instructor*
Sabeom = teacher (only used in martial arts and is not found in 99% of dictionaries)
Kwanjawng = School owner (not rank required but some use it as a rank (ie Kuk Sool Won) for master
Chung Kwanjang = Chief Master (a student one master has promoted from white to master ranking)
Saja= System Inheritor (Rudy Timmerman SJN claims this of Kong Shin Bup and promoted Kevin Janisse to Kong Sin Bup GM in 2014)
Guksa = National Teacher (Suh In Hyuk of Guk Sool Won is probably the best known)

Note, that titles only use -nim, generally, or when talking to business associates and such. In everyday parlance, it is typical to use the honourific -ssi instead of -nim. The Japanese -san may be, *, similar to -ssi  and -sama as to -nim.


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## Buka

Boy, have I got a lot to learn.


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