# The State Of Kenpo



## MJS (May 21, 2007)

There has been discussion on the state of an art, once the founder passes on.  There is a thread talking about the state of Modern Arnis, since the passing of Remy Presas.  I'd like to discuss the state of Kenpo, since the passing of Ed Parker.

What do you feel the current state of the art is in at this time?

Does anything need to be changed, either added or removed?

Should there have been someone named as a successor to the art?

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> There has been discussion on the state of an art, once the founder passes on. There is a thread talking about the state of Modern Arnis, since the passing of Remy Presas. I'd like to discuss the state of Kenpo, since the passing of Ed Parker.
> 
> *(1)* What do you feel the current state of the art is in at this time?
> 
> ...


 
1) The art is doing ok, but there is alot of "bad Kenpo" out there.  People slapping themselves more times than their opponent and hitting people 100 times a second with no power.  Sadly I don't see this changing as the "slappers" will train more slappers and they seem to outnumber the "good and solid" kenpoists.

2) The stick and knife stuff (Forms 7 and 8 and Staff Set) are in desperate need of an overhaul, revision and possible deletion.  Too many bad ideas mixed in with the good.  Cross referencing stick arts would be good idea for people who really want stick and knife stuff.  Also, like it or not, people are becoming more comfortable on the ground and more people are watching (and mimicking) the UFC than boxing.  Kenpo needs to seriously address the grappling and ground tactics.  Many schools only address this on a cursory level if at thinking that either A) they are so good they'll never get taken down or B) "dirty' tactics are enough to beat any skilled grapplered (because grapplers do know about "dirty" tactics apparently...only kenpoists)

3) No Successor nonsense.  The more "leaders" there are the more new ideas can be infused into the system (and the more outdated and obsolete ideas can be phased out).  Having one head usually leads to one closed minded approach which is what causes arts to stagnate and lose effectiveness.  It's rare to have one really open-minded leader (hense why there hasn't been another Ed Parker, Sr.) More chefs....more dishes.


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## IWishToLearn (May 21, 2007)

Well...I had a really long response formulated...until I scrolled down and saw Hawkman's response and the air went outta my sails.  Nicely said Hawkman.

I especially like the idea of more chefs in the kitchen, just so long as those chefs every now and then poke their heads outta their kitchens long enough to see what's goin on in the culinary world.


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## HINER (May 21, 2007)

The problem today with Kenpo as well as other Martial Arts is two-fold:

1. People care more about stripes on a belt.
2. The "bad ***" factor is gone.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 21, 2007)

1.  The art itself is doing pretty okay, I think. As was said, there are a bunch of charlatans out there claiming to teach our beloved kenpo.  One of the hazards of a decentralized system...there's no organization to call out the ******** artists.

2.  More ground work.  
    Overhaul the disarms and weapon techniques.
    Do something about the more ridiculous of the brown belt stuff.

3.  If we get one, I vote for Tatum.  But I rather like the loose confederacy we have instead of a heirarchy.  Now if we could only get the seniors to stop gettting in pissing contests....


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## HINER (May 21, 2007)

Why TATUM?


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## Brian Jones (May 21, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> 1. The art itself is doing pretty okay, I think. As was said, there are a bunch of charlatans out there claiming to teach our beloved kenpo. One of the hazards of a decentralized system...there's no organization to call out the ******** artists.
> 
> 2. More ground work.
> Overhaul the disarms and weapon techniques.
> ...


 
It's not the seniors.  It's their students. Or at least if the seniors do get into those contests, most of them have the good grace not to do it on the internet.
  Now if, you would please expand on the 'ridiculous" stuff at Brown belt.  I'm not picking a fight, as I am in the AKKI and our Brown Belt stuff techs are different.  I am honestly curious about your opinion.

Brian Jones


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## MJS (May 21, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> 1) The art is doing ok, but there is alot of "bad Kenpo" out there. People slapping themselves more times than their opponent and hitting people 100 times a second with no power. Sadly I don't see this changing as the "slappers" will train more slappers and they seem to outnumber the "good and solid" kenpoists.


 
Yup, and this is one of the reason why I don't do the slaps. 



> 2) The stick and knife stuff (Forms 7 and 8 and Staff Set) are in desperate need of an overhaul, revision and possible deletion. Too many bad ideas mixed in with the good. Cross referencing stick arts would be good idea for people who really want stick and knife stuff. Also, like it or not, people are becoming more comfortable on the ground and more people are watching (and mimicking) the UFC than boxing. Kenpo needs to seriously address the grappling and ground tactics. Many schools only address this on a cursory level if at thinking that either A) they are so good they'll never get taken down or B) "dirty' tactics are enough to beat any skilled grapplered (because grapplers do know about "dirty" tactics apparently...only kenpoists)


 
  James, shame on you for saying something like that!! LOL!    Can't disagree with that.  Maybe I don't have the 'understanding', for lack of better words, that some others do, but reality is, I'm not them, so I gotta do what I gotta do.  IMHO, the FMAs and BJJ have some good stuff to offer.  Since my exposure to those arts, I have a new outlook on the stick, blade and the ground. 



> 3) No Successor nonsense. The more "leaders" there are the more new ideas can be infused into the system (and the more outdated and obsolete ideas can be phased out). Having one head usually leads to one closed minded approach which is what causes arts to stagnate and lose effectiveness. It's rare to have one really open-minded leader (hense why there hasn't been another Ed Parker, Sr.) More chefs....more dishes.


 
No, not in Kenpo. LOL!


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## MJS (May 21, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> 1. The art itself is doing pretty okay, I think. As was said, there are a bunch of charlatans out there claiming to teach our beloved kenpo. One of the hazards of a decentralized system...there's no organization to call out the ******** artists.


 
Good point.  Hopefully, those people in question would expose themselves with their actions.



> 2. More ground work.
> Overhaul the disarms and weapon techniques.
> Do something about the more ridiculous of the brown belt stuff.


 
Hmmm...this is interesting.  Your the second person to say this, and this is the second time I'm agreeing.  Just to further the discussion, can you expand a bit on your thoughts regarding this?  



> 3. If we get one, I vote for Tatum. But I rather like the loose confederacy we have instead of a heirarchy. Now if we could only get the seniors to stop gettting in pissing contests....


 
Amen!!


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## bushidomartialarts (May 21, 2007)

To answer both Brian and MJS with fond respect...

1.  I wish that were true, but remember the vast majority of students out there don't do any research.  They show up at the local studio and never look  elsewhere.  Their experience there form their opinion of martial arts forever.  The actions of the charlatans make them plain as day to us, but not to the people who really need protecting.

2.  Ground work:  we don't have any.  It's arrogant to think we don't need any.  The civilian combat environment has changed.  Time to learn how to get up quickly at the very least.

Disarm:  many of the disarms seem....outmoded?  outdated?  naive?  In some cases it's a matter of technology.  Some of our gun disarms include a grab to the pistol that would jam a revolver, but get your hand torn up and brass burnt with an automatic.  Most of our knife disarms are against attacks that are no longer used -- people are just more sophisticated fighters these days.  Just look at the krav maga, arnis or systema disarms -- the people who actually take weapons away from people intent on using them -- they look nothing like ours.

Brown belt stuff:  it's long, overly complex and occasionally teaches poor tactical decisions.  Some recent threads addressed the techniques as being teaching points rather than intended as actual combat responses.  This is fine, but our teaching points shouldn't include teaching tactical mistakes.

3.  That's a good point that it's the students, and that may be mostly so.  On the other hand, you should see some of the vitriol and bile over on the Tracy website.  I've trained with a few of the old guard and most have at least one guy they just can't not dish on if given half an opportunity.  Even our own illustrious Doc (for whom I have deep respect) takes many opportunities to stick the boot in.  Not sure what the deal is there, but it makes me sad.


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## Carol (May 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> What do you feel the current state of the art is in at this time?



I think it is widespread and alive.  However, just like the locations and types of schools vary greatly, the quality of the art and instruction also varies greatly.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Does anything need to be changed, either added or removed?



From my ignorant eyes, some of the advanced techniques seem to be complexity for complexity's sake.   That is not to say that they have no value or that they do not work, but I wonder if they are the most efficient/effective ways to teach a student how to fight.

I don't think the belt system is enough.  Some folks (like me) want to train and don't really have plans to teach.  Others want to teach or even head up a club or school, and their training may not give them skills to do so.  A belt rank doesn't necessarily reflect one's ability to teach, manage student's expectations, or make good operational decisions.  I think that is important whether a teacher teaches for free at their church , under someone else at a school, or even strikes out on their own running a school.




			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Should there have been someone named as a successor to the art?



No.  I don't think a successor would have had any kind of beneficial impact.  Kenpo politics are a bit nasty now...but I actually think a successor would have made matters even worse.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 21, 2007)

And why Tatum?  Mostly because of his organization.  He has a lot of high level black belts still with him...most organizations I see keep losing their senior guys as they get dissatisfied with their station.  It says a lot about him that he keeps senior guys so well.


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## whitedragon_48 (May 22, 2007)

MJS said:


> What do you feel the current state of the art is in at this time?
> *The art is as much as the artist is. Kenpo is a fine as has always been. Why do we try to see Kenpo as an object? Kenpo is an idea, it flows like the waters and like so, it reflects the practitioner's image. Kenpo is in good hands, there are a few guys out there "faking it out" but hopefully they'll "slap" themselves silly someday.*
> 
> Does anything need to be changed, either added or removed?
> ...


 
I, like many others, came by Kenpo as a mere accident many years ago. I hear and agree with you most. During my training with other Kenpoists I've learned that many of them are overzealous with their ideas. Its hard to devote many years to an idea only to be proven wrong in an instant by an "outsider"; I know, it happened to me when I came into Kenpo. But this helped me grow. As someone who uses his Kenpo regularly and as recently as 20hrs ago, I can attest to its effectiveness when applied properly.

Yes, there's bad Kenpo out there, but, who cares? Is your Kenpo good for you? As long as you "keep it real", you'll do fine out there.


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## MJS (May 22, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> To answer both Brian and MJS with fond respect...
> 
> 1. I wish that were true, but remember the vast majority of students out there don't do any research. They show up at the local studio and never look elsewhere. Their experience there form their opinion of martial arts forever. The actions of the charlatans make them plain as day to us, but not to the people who really need protecting.


 
True.  There is so much out there, I couldn't think of not taking a look at the other items on the menu. 



> 2. Ground work: we don't have any. It's arrogant to think we don't need any. The civilian combat environment has changed. Time to learn how to get up quickly at the very least.


 
I've heard that this used to be covered by Parker.  Don't think I ever really got a solid answer as to the exact material.  Can a vertical tech. by applied to a horizontal position?  Parts of it possibly.  IMHO though, I'd rather have a wider base of things to choose from.



> Disarm: many of the disarms seem....outmoded? outdated? naive? In some cases it's a matter of technology. Some of our gun disarms include a grab to the pistol that would jam a revolver, but get your hand torn up and brass burnt with an automatic. Most of our knife disarms are against attacks that are no longer used -- people are just more sophisticated fighters these days. Just look at the krav maga, arnis or systema disarms -- the people who actually take weapons away from people intent on using them -- they look nothing like ours.


 
I remember by first seminar with Tuhon Leo Gaje.  Needless to say my eyes were wide open, mouth was wide open and was speechless for a few.  Granted, every person that may pull a knife on us isn't going to be on his level, but my point is, is that its an eye opener to see the potential of a knife.  These are people who come from a culture where carrying a blade is as common as people carrying a gun here.



> Brown belt stuff: it's long, overly complex and occasionally teaches poor tactical decisions. Some recent threads addressed the techniques as being teaching points rather than intended as actual combat responses. This is fine, but our teaching points shouldn't include teaching tactical mistakes.


 
Can't necessarily disagree, although you may here the comment that the reason you're having a problem is because you really don't understand the deeper meaning of it.  Again, not saying this is the case with you, just that is the usual reply.


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## MJS (May 22, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I think it is widespread and alive. However, just like the locations and types of schools vary greatly, the quality of the art and instruction also varies greatly.


 
Agreed.  Funny how that applies to every art, not just Kenpo. 





> From my ignorant eyes, some of the advanced techniques seem to be complexity for complexity's sake. That is not to say that they have no value or that they do not work, but I wonder if they are the most efficient/effective ways to teach a student how to fight.


 
Good point.  The KISS principle comes to mind here.  



> I don't think the belt system is enough. Some folks (like me) want to train and don't really have plans to teach. Others want to teach or even head up a club or school, and their training may not give them skills to do so. A belt rank doesn't necessarily reflect one's ability to teach, manage student's expectations, or make good operational decisions. I think that is important whether a teacher teaches for free at their church , under someone else at a school, or even strikes out on their own running a school.


 
The number of stripes someone has, really hasn't been a deciding factor when I've looked for people to train with.  Can they teach, can they do the stuff, etc., are things I look for.






> No. I don't think a successor would have had any kind of beneficial impact. Kenpo politics are a bit nasty now...but I actually think a successor would have made matters even worse.


 
I'll use Modern Arnis as an example.  Look at the people running around with magazine advertisements for seminars saying that they're the successor to Remy Presas.  Ummm...ok.


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## MJS (May 22, 2007)

whitedragon_48 said:


> I, like many others, came by Kenpo as a mere accident many years ago. I hear and agree with you most. During my training with other Kenpoists I've learned that many of them are overzealous with their ideas. Its hard to devote many years to an idea only to be proven wrong in an instant by an "outsider"; I know, it happened to me when I came into Kenpo. But this helped me grow. As someone who uses his Kenpo regularly and as recently as 20hrs ago, I can attest to its effectiveness when applied properly.
> 
> Yes, there's bad Kenpo out there, but, who cares? Is your Kenpo good for you? As long as you "keep it real", you'll do fine out there.


 
Well said.  I can't disagree with that.:asian: 

Mike


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