# Sword and Aikido



## Yari (May 2, 2005)

Hi

Do you need to be able to handle a japanese sword to truely understand Aikido?

/Terje


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## MisterMike (May 2, 2005)

Yari said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> Do you need to be able to handle a japanese sword to truely understand Aikido?
> 
> /Terje



Nahhh, just life in general


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## Paul B (May 2, 2005)

Nice,Mike! :lol:


I wouldn't say it's a must...but I've found Dojo that include Aiki Ken in their curriculum tend to have better all around movement and timing. It helps with principles for sure. As far as studying Kenjutsu or Iaido to help understand Aikido goes...ehhhh..maybe.


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## arnisador (May 2, 2005)

I've heard people argue this both ways.


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## Yari (May 3, 2005)

I've heard that the current Doshu has said that the sword wasn't important for him for his Aikido. I don't know if he realy said it, but it got me thinking.

I too beleive that a weapon will enhance your techniques, but yes there are arguments for both ways. Let us hear them!

/Yari


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## Shirt Ripper (May 3, 2005)

Arent many of the movements/movement styles in aikido derived from Iaido and the common movements of the sword in general?  If that is the case one would think that it may be advantagious to have some practice with a sword.


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## Yari (May 3, 2005)

Which is true, but a lot of people believe that AIkido evolves, and therefor the aikido they do is of shuch a level that the sword isn't needed anymore.

/Terje


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## Shirt Ripper (May 3, 2005)

The fact that Aikido evolves is definetely one of the big reasons why I like it.  But since that is the case, should it evolve to the point of _no longer_ using the sword.  It seems that it _might_ be valuable tool for practitioners at various levels of experience.  I think that part of the seeminly "flexible" nature of Aikido is that it is open to differerent methods, which might include either using or not using a sword.  Just some thoughts.

Also, someone mentioned the Doshu above.  How would one define what exactly a Doshu is/does?  Sort of the "head-guy" of the art, so to speak?

What is the progression of them?  Like this?
Morihei Ueshiba
Kishumarru Ueshibe (obliterated that name I think)
? The aboves son?

Correct my line of thinking if needed.


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## Yari (May 3, 2005)

I'm not wure what your thinking about. Please enlighten me!

/Yari


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## Shirt Ripper (May 3, 2005)

Yari said:
			
		

> I'm not wure what your thinking about. Please enlighten me!
> 
> /Yari


Well, I have seen Kishomarru referred to as the Doshu and I have seen, who I believe is his son referred to as this as well.  As my knowledge and experience is limited I was wondering what that title actually means?  So the person referred to as the Doshu is _what_ in relation to the art of Aikido?

That sounds more clear...I think.


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## Yari (May 3, 2005)

Ahh, OK. Yeah Doshu is the equivelant of "Head of Office", and follows the first born male child whne he takes over.

/Yari


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## Shirt Ripper (May 3, 2005)

Yari said:
			
		

> Ahh, OK. Yeah Doshu is the equivelant of "Head of Office", and follows the first born male child whne he takes over.
> 
> /Yari


That's what I thought.  Thanks.


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## MisterMike (May 3, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Nice,Mike! :lol:
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say it's a must...but I've found Dojo that include Aiki Ken in their curriculum tend to have better all around movement and timing. It helps with principles for sure. As far as studying Kenjutsu or Iaido to help understand Aikido goes...ehhhh..maybe.



I've seen some Aikido dojo that also teach Iaido as well, with Iai-to (practice swords, unsharpened). I'm sure there are overlaying physical priciples in both, such as moving with the hips, breathing, etc.

Aiki-ken and Aiki-Jo are methods of practicing Aikido, just extending those principles to the weapon. Typically the ken and jo are wood, so to more precisely answer Yari's original question, a "Japanese sword" is not necessary, just a bokken.

Good thread


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## Paul B (May 3, 2005)

Well Mike....since we're being "nit-picky".... :lol:

The "handling" issue isn't a must. There is no need for being proficient with (real) sword related skills like nukitsuki,chiburi,noto,and manipulating the Saya. I'm sure everyone's understanding of the term "handling" is different from mine,but there it is.:uhyeah:  

It would be true however, to say that one would have to know how to cut with a sword in a JSA "fashion" when doing bokuto work. We're not just trying to hit each other with pieces of wood,ya know. I have also found that the use of the sword in Aikido tends to be principle driven as mentioned, but most of the techniques are downright bloodthirsty.:supcool:  

If if one were to compare the practice with the sword in Aiki Ken to say a form of Iaido,there is more of a kumitachi-ish practice in Aiki Ken that allows for the student to more readily see the results of their training via practicing with another person almost from the get go. Iaido by it's nature is a more solitary art. Both Arts measure gains in proficiency by inches,I'd say. At any rate...No it isn't absolutely necessary,but you're missing out on a ton of great stuff!

I agree,great thread!  BTW...Moriteru Ueshiba is the current Doshu. I highly recommend picking up his "Best Aikido" series...good stuff!


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## MisterMike (May 4, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> It would be true however, to say that one would have to know how to cut with a sword in a JSA "fashion" when doing bokuto work. We're not just trying to hit each other with pieces of wood,ya know. I have also found that the use of the sword in Aikido tends to be principle driven as mentioned, but most of the techniques are downright bloodthirsty.:supcool:



I agree there has to be a bit of "realism" in the attacks and the same can be said for knowing how to throw a punch, kick, overhead or side strikes to the head. It's a fine line because we should also be careful in how we "tell" our opponents to attack us correctly, because we want to be able to "accept" everything. This is good Aiki.


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## arnisador (May 4, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> BTW...Moriteru Ueshiba is the current Doshu.


 Is he the grandson?


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## Paul B (May 4, 2005)

Absolutely Mike! That's why I like to train with...wait for it...white belts. Less programming the better for the "actual" use of Aiki. You can learn some awesome technique from Sensei,but you can learn how to use that technique in reality from practicing with someone who either:

1. Is a behemoth and maybe doesn't wanna "blend". *best if a combination*

2. Is a newbie and doesn't know the "drill". *this does not mean beat them up*

Presenting someone with agreement can be a tricky thing. YOU have to agree to agree.:uhyeah:  

BTW...yes Arnisador...He is the son of Kisshomaru Ueshiba.


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## Shirt Ripper (May 4, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Absolutely Mike! That's why I like to train with...wait for it...white belts. Less programming the better for the "actual" use of Aiki. You can learn some awesome technique from Sensei,but you can learn how to use that technique in reality from practicing with someone who either:
> 
> 1. Is a behemoth and maybe doesn't wanna "blend". *best if a combination*
> 
> ...


Could this (number 2) be generalized by saying you can "learn by teaching" in a sense?

Just want to make sure I follow you.


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## Paul B (May 4, 2005)

IMO...kinda sorta SR... the way I see it,the technique you want isn't always the technique that's available. So in essence,the uke is actually telling you what technique IS appropriate,all you have to do is listen to the uke. What you have to get past is your own insistence on accomplishing the technique that you want. 

....and they say Aikido is about communication! :lol:


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## Yari (May 9, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> ....... So in essence,the uke is actually telling you what technique IS appropriate,all you have to do is listen to the uke. What you have to get past is your own insistence on accomplishing the technique that you want.
> 
> ....and they say Aikido is about communication! :lol:



I do agree alot on this. The real question is : is it possible to get to this state? And what if uke knows this, can he use it to his advantage.

/Yari


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