# School Uniforms



## MJS (Oct 10, 2008)

This is usually a topic that brings alot of controversy in the school system every time it comes up.  Some parents think its a great idea, and others, including some kids, think that there should be no dress code.

So, while reading todays paper, I came across this.



> EAST HARTFORD  - When John Carlos Cortes was growing up in South America, he was required to wear school uniforms.
> 
> Now Cortes says he would like to see the same requirement for East Hartford students.
> 
> ...


 
Usually, the only schools here that have a uniform policy, are the private schools.  The majority of the public schools have no uniforms, but do have a dress code.  

So, what are your thoughts on this?  For fun, I put up a poll to vote on.


----------



## MA-Caver (Oct 10, 2008)

If I had to wear a uniform to school everyday I'm not sure I would've liked it. But then again if I had to do so since say, the first or second grade and everyone else was wearing one I think I'd grown up not thinking one way or the other about it. 
Imposing the rule upon students NOW in the jr. high to high-school ages would just be a mess... particularly with American students and their counterparts abroad. 
But, starting kids when they're young, first years and such... and it becomes a habit and the norm. 
Question is for public schools who pays for it? Tax dollars? Sorry, we gotta save our money for the $700 Billion bail out. <sarcastic> 
I think enforcing a dress code would be the best thing. No gang-affiliated type clothing/colors and offensive t-shirts (i.e. death metal bands, sexual innuendos, etc.), girls wearing modest length dresses/skirts at least down to mid-thigh if not knee length. No, tattered jeans or other torn clothing. 

Again it goes to respecting the schools and the teachers and each other. 
Uniforms? Well that idea is foreign to me (pardon the pun) as I didn't grow up in it.


----------



## dragonswordkata (Oct 10, 2008)

An interesting question. May I put a martial arts spin on it? 
When teaching my Karate class, after the students first tested rank, I require my students to wear a gui. I believe this fosters comraudary, pride and self confidence. 
   If you help to limit the amount of pop culture/commercialism brought in the class, individuality will shine forth in the students skills, additude and dedication. If the students doesn't have to worry about keeping up with the jones hopefully they will focus more on why they are at school.
    I have had no complaints from my students or parents about this "dress code". While I know the public school system is different then an optional MA class, I feel, and hope, the values and life lessons taught are just as important as one to the other.


----------



## pete (Oct 10, 2008)

let 'em where what they want! or at least let the parents decide for their own child.

what's with all the need for conformancy in today's society... lighten up.. we need a little more individuality, freedom to express one's self, and that starts with our children.


----------



## dragonswordkata (Oct 10, 2008)

pete said:


> let 'em where what they want! or at least let the parents decide for their own child.
> 
> what's with all the need for conformancy in today's society... lighten up.. we need a little more individuality, freedom to express one's self, and that starts with our children.


 
While I agree with you that our society overly demands conformity, there is a time and place for structure, otherwise we desend into anarchy and choas.
Without guidence and standards children typicaly will chose the easiest path. For example; if society didn't teach children to read and write how many of them, or us, would have done so voluntarily, and where would we be now without being "forced" to do this against our will?


----------



## Nolerama (Oct 10, 2008)

I think that a school uniform, enforced properly, could help keep the kids focused on school. In theory, it should work. I hate being in a store, and some adult walks in, pants down to his ankles, and mumbles something along the lines of "you hiring?"

No one in their right mind is going to hire someone like that. At least not in an industry/society where appearance plays a huge factor in our daily lives when it comes to perception.

Now, if kids were brought up thinking that there's a social norm they have to meet (i.e. dressing like everyone else and be presentable) in order to get a job, then I see the validity in school uniforms. It's supposed to level the playing field in terms of appearance.

However, school uniforms totally contradict our consumer culture. Why push consumer goods (clothes, shoes, electronics, etc.) to kids on one hand, and then deny them the right to "express themselves" when they get to school on the other? It seems a bit hypocritical.

I think that persuading school kids to wear uniforms with added incentives, like going to eat off-campus, or extra time for lunch, free day off school... would help in a way. At least that shows that if you play ball with the system, then the system might work for you.

Overall, I see school kids in both public and private schools test the boundaries. Hair is different, shoes are still an issue in some schools, etc, etc. Kids will find a lot of ways to set themselves apart in their search for individualism, and ultimately, inclusion.


----------



## girlbug2 (Oct 10, 2008)

We have uniforms at our kids' school. Financially, I look at it this way: you _have to_ buy new clothes for your kid for school every year. Overall, it did cost me less to buy the relatively cheap uniforms (which can be handed down nicely) than new clothes. Plus mornings are easier with less confusion about what to wear.


----------



## Kacey (Oct 10, 2008)

As a teacher, I would love to see school uniforms in my school - I'd even wear one myself.  I am so tired of interrupting educational time to tell kids to pull their pants up (sagging) or their shirts down (baring their bellies) or to go to the office because their dress code violation can't be solved without a change of clothing.  And I'm tired of the time it takes to keep up to date on what signifies gang affiliation this week, and which musical groups can't be worn, and whether or not team attire is okay... it's hard to tell a kid that he can't wear his coat - his only coat - on the school grounds because it has the logo of a professional sports team (forbidden under our dress code), and it's just as hard to tell a girl that skirt to her cute new outfit is too short, and she'll have to wear a pair of school sweats or her gym shorts with the top instead.  

Parents have to buy their kids clothes anyway - and from talking to friends whose kids wear uniforms, they tend to be cheaper, they can be passed down to younger kids in the family or sold, and you don't need as many individual items, because variety is not an issue.

I voted for "enforce a strict dress code" because there's a fine line between that and uniforms.  My school has talked about uniforms, but they would be more of a strict dress code - khaki or black Dockers style pants, with shirts in the school colors (black and gold) with or without the school logo.


----------



## stickarts (Oct 10, 2008)

I am for a dress code. I think there should be some kind of boundries and expectations set. I know from work experience too that how you dress can also help you to maintain a desired mindset. For example dress professional and it helps you to act professional.


----------



## pete (Oct 11, 2008)

stickarts said:


> ...how you dress can also help you to maintain a desired mindset.


 exactly why we shouldn't have school admins dictate something that would project THEIR desired mindset into our children...


----------



## Gordon Nore (Oct 11, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I voted for "enforce a strict dress code" because there's a fine line between that and uniforms.  My school has talked about uniforms, but they would be more of a strict dress code - khaki or black Dockers style pants, with shirts in the school colors (black and gold) with or without the school logo.



That's essentially what they did at my son's high school. A uniform of this sort is easily worn by teachers, so I would certainly support it if we made such a move at the middle school where I teach. The dress code / uniform eliminates some of the negotiation about whether clothing is sexually provocative or redolent of gangs.

On the downside, it creates yet another rule to enforce. While parents buy school clothes anyway, such a program pretty much requires that they have all the money together at once, which is not realistic for low-income families. I think we spent close to $400 to get Tucker outfitted for a year's worth of school uniform clothes, which is within our budget, but no everyone's. If a parent refuses to pop for it, are you gonna punish the kid?

BTW, my son was often "out of uniform," because he found the khakis uncomfortable and wore plain sweats that matched the pants pretty closely. One day at school I got a call from his principal, who told me he was out of uniform, and who asked my permission to send him home to change. I said, yes, of course, and was polite about it. I was giggling to myself a bit: here's a honour roll kids who's never gotten trouble, and two educators are actually having a conversation about his pants.

I'm ok with the idea, as long as everyone's clear it's not going to make kids smarter or school less violent.


----------



## Kacey (Oct 11, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> On the downside, it creates yet another rule to enforce. While parents buy school clothes anyway, such a program pretty much requires that they have all the money together at once, which is not realistic for low-income families. I think we spent close to $400 to get Tucker outfitted for a year's worth of school uniform clothes, which is within our budget, but no everyone's. If a parent refuses to pop for it, are you gonna punish the kid?



We're already spending an absurd amount of time enforcing the dress code we've got, and the kids are constantly creating new "looks" to indicate their affiliations (and yes, we have a serious gang problem at my middle school) that we then have to ban and enforce... enforcing a set dress code would be a lot easier, I think.

As far as the cost, there are a fair number of districts around here that went to uniforms, and the general consensus has been that the uniform clothes (which are purchased in bulk and resold just enough above cost to finance the next purchase) are cheaper than what they had been buying - and most of these districts have a thriving resale, as well, as many of the kids outgrow their uniforms before they destroy them completely.


----------



## Fiendlover (Oct 12, 2008)

Being a high school student, I believe there should be no uniforms.  Typical, you might say.  But seeing a good amount of what teens wear today, I'd say there should be somewhat of a code though I do not think it should be so strict.  There are so many, how should I say this, inappropiate clothing that, i will be so bold to say about 60% of girls wear today that wouldn't look so weird on prostitutes.  It's absolutly absurd.  What are the parents thinking when they send there 13, 14, 15 year old daughter to school wearing almost revealing, if not revealing clothes?  I can't believe some of the things I see girls wear to school.  But uniforms?  No.  Anyone can find a way to make even a uniform become scanky so why doom the other 40%?  

Now for the dress code I think there should be three rules.

1.  Don't wear anything to offend anyone
2.  Don't wear anything that reveals anything inappropiate. 
3.  Don't wear anything that's sharp (spiked collars for example.)

I won't go far as to say weapons because anything can be a weapon as we know.  :uhyeah:


----------



## pete (Oct 12, 2008)

> here's a honour roll kids who's never gotten trouble, and two educators are actually having a conversation about his pants.


 
rediculous ain't it.. and a waste of taxpayers money~



> and the kids are constantly creating new "looks" to indicate their affiliations (and yes, we have a serious gang problem at my middle school) that we then have to ban and enforce


 
why ban the clothes, just ban the action... or spend the time and money addressing root causes not just 'the look'



> Now for the dress code I think there should be three rules.
> 
> 1. Don't wear anything to offend anyone
> 2. Don't wear anything that reveals anything inappropiate.
> ...


 
1. everything offends someone
2. everything reveals something... inappropriate is subjective... why not just follow the laws in place in your area for indecent exposure, public lewdness, etc. don't need redundant laws and more rules
3. not talking about weapons... if its sharp but not dangerous or a weapon, what is the harm... but if it is... its a weapon and should be dealt with accordingly.

again, kids need to be allowed to their own individuality early and often. let's not get in there way.


----------



## terryl965 (Oct 12, 2008)

Uniform are what my childern wear and to me it is a bad ideal but the reasoning behind it I fully support, stop people from jumping other students for a pair of smeakers and such, I believe in freedom but some of the things people will do to each other needs to be dealt with.


----------



## MJS (Oct 14, 2008)

I'm split on this.  Part of me says have uniforms.  This will keep everyone 'uniform', no pun intended.  The focus of the day won't be who is wearing the $10 jeans vs the ones wearing the $30 jeans vs the ones wearing the $80 jeans.  The same can be said for any other article of clothing as well.  

The other part of me says to let them wear what they want within the dress code put in place by the school.  If someone comes in with a shirt that shows half their belly, call their parents, and send them home to change.  If someone comes in with pants half way down, send them home to change.

Will this cause a disruption in the day?  Probably, but sometimes we have to give something to get something, and if we have to give up some time in the day to make them change, but at the same time giving them the ability to have nobody interfere with their 'rights' then so be it.


----------



## stickarts (Oct 15, 2008)

MJS said:


> I'm split on this. Part of me says have uniforms. This will keep everyone 'uniform', no pun intended. The focus of the day won't be who is wearing the $10 jeans vs the ones wearing the $30 jeans vs the ones wearing the $80 jeans. The same can be said for any other article of clothing as well.
> 
> The other part of me says to let them wear what they want within the dress code put in place by the school. If someone comes in with a shirt that shows half their belly, call their parents, and send them home to change. If someone comes in with pants half way down, send them home to change.
> 
> Will this cause a disruption in the day? Probably, but sometimes we have to give something to get something, and if we have to give up some time in the day to make them change, but at the same time giving them the ability to have nobody interfere with their 'rights' then so be it.


 
Good points. To add to that, even if uniform is required, it doesn't mean everyone will wear that either and you still may have to send them home.


----------



## MJS (Oct 15, 2008)

stickarts said:


> Good points. To add to that, even if uniform is required, it doesn't mean everyone will wear that either and you still may have to send them home.


 
Thats true, and I'm sure there would be more than a few who would refuse to wear them.


----------



## tahuti (Oct 15, 2008)

And even if you have uniform, kids will put more money in accessories. Or what female coworker told me, they would take their "regulation" skirts but would button it up higher.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 15, 2008)

I like the crisp clean look of schools that have school uniforms.  It does in many ways take care of some problems.  Yet it brings problems with it as well.  People will always push the limit or skirt or cross a line with or without uniforms.  It does come down to the administrators having a policy and following it.

I also like the creative feel of not having a uniform.  Our society has by and large been a very creative one and I am loathe to see that change.  Creativity brings new outlooks and new thought and in the end creates experiences that we might otherwise not have.

So in the end I am split!


----------



## pete (Oct 16, 2008)

and all the while i thought the idea was to keep kids IN school, not figure out all these ways to send them home!


----------



## MJS (Oct 16, 2008)

pete said:


> and all the while i thought the idea was to keep kids IN school, not figure out all these ways to send them home!


 
Well, you're right, it is.  Of course, if the kids themselves were not so worried about who was/wasn't wearing the 'in thing' and spending more time focusing on their studies, that IMO would solve a good portion of the problem.


----------



## Makalakumu (Oct 18, 2008)

I support a school's use of uniforms.  I support a schools choice to push a dress code.  I support a school's choice to let the kids do what they want.  Every school has different needs and one rule isn't going to address them all.  I've worked at schools where I've had gang bangers representing openly...a uniform or a dress code is needed here.  I've also worked at a school where the kids were great and hardly misbehaved at all.  What use are uniforms or dress codes in a place like that?  Uniforms are just another tool that schools can use to help educate various groups of children.  If the tool isn't needed, then using it isn't worth it.


----------



## atinsley (Oct 18, 2008)

My kids are in Catholic School and they wear uniforms, as do all of the students there. I find no problems what so ever with that policy. I actually spend less each year by buying uniforms for school then I did before they started.

I believe that by having the children wear uniforms, it allows the administrators, teachers and students to focus on what needs to be focused on, namely education. 

By wearing a uniform, the kids all look the same so it removes a lot of the problems associated with clothing. Kids no longer argue, fight, etc., over who has the better shoes, jeans, etc. It also has the added benefit to staff and administrators of not having to try and determine what brand, color or markings are associated with what gang. 

Face it, kids can be cruel; but if all the kids are wearing a uniform (or conform to a strict dress code), they can no longer make fun of, or put down, someone whose parents are unable to afford the brand name, costly clothing. Kids have enough to deal with now a days and being harassed or made fun of because of the clothing that they wear should not be one of them, especially in the classroom setting.

By having a uniform, it is also no longer subjective as to what constitutes "inappropriate" attire. The teachers no longer have to make a judgment call; it either is or isn't.

Regarding those that say kids would refuse to wear the uniform; they might, but if the school has a written policy that is given to every student/parent, then those that refuse are dealt with like any other rule breaker.

To those that say we need to allow kids to have their individuality and the freedom to express themselves, I'm all for it. But really, the classroom is not the place for it; they are there to learn not to have a fashion show. 

I am not an educator, or a LEO, but my guess would be that some of the problems that they deal with regarding children can be tied back to them trying to express themselves, in a manner or location where it is not appropriate.


----------



## pete (Oct 19, 2008)

atinsley said:


> To those that say we need to allow kids to have their individuality and the freedom to express themselves, I'm all for it. But really, the classroom is not the place for it; they are there to learn not to have a fashion show.
> 
> I am not an educator, or a LEO, but my guess would be that some of the problems that they deal with regarding children can be tied back to them trying to express themselves, in a manner or location where it is not appropriate.


 
Talk about repressed.  Gotta ask, if the classroom is not the place for it, then where is this special place where the kids can express themselves? church? dinner table? maybe some secret clubhouse up a tree... 

Our schools have to educate, the 3 R's sure, but also develop the child's social skills and allow them the freedom to find themselves, come to grips with growing up, and yes, accepting individuality as well as sameness.  

So how 'bout this... those that want uniforms can dress their kids in 'brown shirts' and shiny boots and send them to school, while the rest of us can continue to let our kids do as they please, wear 'tye-die', red bandanas, or hockey shorts.  

And we'll see who ends up on the therapist's couch first~

peace - out.
pete.


----------



## girlbug2 (Oct 19, 2008)

Pete, you're making it out to be a black and white issue of uniform= repression.

Let me ask you, do clothes define the person? Does their ability to dress in the latest styles or keep up with brand name fashions show them to be "individuals"?

I say let kids wear uniforms to school and "find themselves" by expressing themselves in ways other than clothing. School is a great place for that. Kids express themselves in writing assignments and art projects and music. Kids learn about themselves through developing a life of the mind when they explore the science, history, art and other things they are studying. How would a uniform stop this? If anything, uniforms take away extraneous, materialistic distractions from the classroom so that kids can learn these more important things first. 

Time enough for them to learn how to be ostracized and labeled based on their clothing in the "real world" later.


----------



## pete (Oct 20, 2008)

No, just another step towards a society of restriction and conformity.

First Uniforms, then hair length, then maybe some restrictions on reading materials... we don't want our kids reading Huck Finn or Catcher in the Rye do we now? How about some mandatory prayers, non-denominational of course, ... 

See the point is these 'rules' that you propose become inflicted upon those of us who don't subscribe to your views.  You want uniforms, so EVERYBODY wears uniforms, etc; 

I maintain that the kids and there parents deserve the freedom to make those choices for themselves.  So your kids can wear tighty-whities and my son can wear boxers. no harm no foul.

pete


----------



## MJS (Oct 20, 2008)

pete said:


> Talk about repressed. Gotta ask, if the classroom is not the place for it, then where is this special place where the kids can express themselves? church? dinner table? maybe some secret clubhouse up a tree...
> 
> Our schools have to educate, the 3 R's sure, but also develop the child's social skills and allow them the freedom to find themselves, come to grips with growing up, and yes, accepting individuality as well as sameness.
> 
> ...


 
If people are against uniforms, thats fine.  I do think that some sort of dress code should be in place and enforced.  As for letting them wear what they want....what if their clothing is causing a distraction?  So a girl who is wearing a shirt that is so short and so low cut, that the class is focusing their attn. on her instead of whats going on, I guess we won't have to worry about the therapists couch, instead we'll have a class full of people repeating the same grade.


----------



## MJS (Oct 20, 2008)

pete said:


> No, just another step towards a society of restriction and conformity.
> 
> First Uniforms, then hair length, then maybe some restrictions on reading materials... we don't want our kids reading Huck Finn or Catcher in the Rye do we now? How about some mandatory prayers, non-denominational of course, ...
> 
> ...


 
Hmm...so people should just be able to do what they want, when they want, without having to worry about any rules?  Sorry, Pete, but I think you're wishing for a fantasy rather than whats reality.  

Let me ask you this...you teach Martial Arts classes right?  Do you require uniforms?  If so, I'd imagine that everyone is required to wear that uniform right?  So if the uniform of the day is a gi, either white or black and their belt, and someone shows up in a tank and shorts, are you going to just shrug your shoulders and not say anything?  

Personally, I'm not crazy about uniforms for school, unless its a private school, and that rule just may be in place.


----------



## pete (Oct 20, 2008)

MJS said:
			
		

> Let me ask you this...you teach Martial Arts classes right?


 yes


			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Do you require uniforms?


well, yes & no... let me explain. I teach adults with no uniforms whatsoever, no dress code other than remove watches, jewelery, etc for safety reasons only. i ask guys and gals with longer hair to tie it back also for safety reasons. never have i asked anyone to change, or cut their hair, or cover up tats, or any thing else.

we also teach kids, and when we started i didn't want uniforms for them either, but my wife/teaching partner reasoned that the 'gi and belt' is expected in that style and 'kids like them'. so basically i relented. but...



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> If so, I'd imagine that everyone is required to wear that uniform right? So if the uniform of the day is a gi, either white or black and their belt, and someone shows up in a tank and shorts, are you going to just shrug your shoulders and not say anything?


 
so that has happened many times, kids come directly from school or the playground. maybe grandpa was watching them and didn't know, or maybe the gi just wasn't out of the dryer yet. Whadya think i'd do...

thats right, absolutely nothing! kid in shorts takes the same class as kid in gi. why not~

pete.


----------



## MJS (Oct 20, 2008)

pete said:


> yes
> 
> well, yes & no... let me explain. I teach adults with no uniforms whatsoever, no dress code other than remove watches, jewelery, etc for safety reasons only. i ask guys and gals with longer hair to tie it back also for safety reasons. never have i asked anyone to change, or cut their hair, or cover up tats, or any thing else.
> 
> ...


 
The difference lies in the fact that you don't have a policy.  My Arnis class for example...the inst. lets people wear pretty much whatever, ie: shorts when its hot, sweats, gi pants, and a t-shirt, preferably one that is plain white or black.  Kenpo however, we have to wear a gi and a belt.  

Have people forgot their belt, their top, etc? Sure.  Have they been allowed to train? Sure.  But, we explain that they need to be responsible and ensure that this stuff is brought with them to class.  If they showed up every class without something, well, thats a problem.


----------



## MJS (Oct 21, 2008)

Saw this today.

The board of education will hold its third and final forum tonight on whether the students should wear uniforms or face a more strict dress code.



> The forum, for students at East Hartford High School and their parents, will be held at 5:30 p.m. at the Connecticut International Baccalaureate Academy, 857 Forbes St. Board members say they have not decided whether to require school uniforms in the public schools but want to hear from the public. During two other forums this month, some parents have favored uniforms while others have said requiring them limits students' ability to express themselves.
> 
> The board adopted a stricter dress code in 2007, but reversed itself after parents and students objected. That code would have required students to wear navy, khaki, tan or black pants and black, white, navy, blue or yellow shirts. *Instead, the board asked administrators to enforce the existing code, which emphasizes what is not allowed, including tank tops, miniskirts and pants that reveal any part of the torso or underwear.*


 
Like I said, I'm more for just enforcing the dress code that already exists, and personally, I don't think the bold part is too much to ask.  God forbid someone should infringe on the school kids 'rights'.    After all, shouldn't the focus of school be on learning and not who is wearing what?


----------

