# Surrogate sex partner inspires story, film



## Big Don (Jan 11, 2012)

[h=1]Surrogate sex partner inspires story, film[/h]                                                                     Edward Guthmann, SFGate San Francisco Chronicle EXCERPT:

  Tuesday, January 10, 2012
    In 38 years as a surrogate partner - a  profession formerly known as a sex surrogate - Cheryl Cohen Greene has  helped all kinds of clients. She's worked with couples, with married men  and single men, with disabled people, with men in their 60s, 70s and  80s who have never had sex.
 One of her clients, the poet and journalist Mark O'Brien, was  stricken with polio at 6 and spent most of his life in an iron lung. In  1986, when O'Brien was 36 and a virgin, he hired Cohen Greene as his  surrogate partner. They met six times and remained friends until  O'Brien's death in 1999. 
 Their story is now an independent film, "The Surrogate," which  premieres Jan. 23 at the Sundance Film Festival. Starring John Hawkes  ("Winter's Bone") as O'Brien and Helen Hunt ("As Good as It Gets") as  Cohen Greene, it's adapted from a 1990 article, "On Seeing a Sex  Surrogate," that O'Brien wrote for the Sun magazine of North Carolina. 
 Written and directed by Ben Lewin, "The Surrogate" was filmed in  Santa Monica last spring on a $1.3 million budget. Cohen Greene, a paid  consultant, spent a week on the set in May and plans to attend the world  premiere at Sundance. "I haven't seen the whole film," she says. "But  it's pretty frank from what I can tell."
 O'Brien was also the subject of a 1996 Oscar-winning documentary short, "Breathing Lessons" by Jessica Yu. 
 At 67, vibrant and attractive, Cohen Greene still works as a  surrogate partner, seeing clients in her Berkeley studio. She's married  to her second husband, Bob Greene, and has a daughter, 46, and son, 43,  from her first marriage. 
 Born and raised in Salem, Mass., she moved to Berkeley in 1968, and  says her work as a surrogate grew from her years as a volunteer with the  San Francisco Sex Information hotline. "It was fascinating to listen to  people and not be judgmental, to learn about myself and see what  buttons got pushed. ... Up until then I'd never even met gay or bisexual  men or women."
 In the early '60s, William Masters and Virginia Johnson, best-selling  authors of "Human Sexual Response," started training surrogate partners  at their research institute in St. Louis. Cohen Greene learned the  Masters and Johnson approach from a Berkeley sex therapist. It  incorporated the "sensate focus" method of sensual touch and genital  exploration with verbal feedback. 
END EXCERPT
Can anyone explain how "Sexual Surrogates" are NOT over educated prostitutes? Because, Merriam Webster defines prostitute as:





> 1
> 
> _a_ *:* a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse especially for money *:* whore _b_ *:* a male who engages in sexual and especially homosexual practices for money


That one does other things as well, doesn't, IMO, change the fact that they are selling sex.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 11, 2012)

No it doesn't change that basic fact.  

But whilst it is not a profession that I would choose for myself (because I'd lose money rather than make it ) neither is it something that I would condemn someone for out of hand if it is what they choose to do.  At least they provide a useful service, unlike those leaches on the stock markets of the globe or professional politicians. 

Where I think this differs from lasses who end up 'working the streets' is that those such as Cheryl Greene are not particularly likely to be suffering the tender 'management' of a pimp (who, in my '"Outraged of Hemel Hempsted"' opinion are the ones that should be relieved of having to bear the burden of life).  So they are not 'victims' and neither are they creating problems for society at large by their activities.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 11, 2012)

Sounds like a Hooker to me. No different between her and the $2.00 crack head on the corner that meets you in the ally


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## Indagator (Jan 11, 2012)

Ah, liberalism. How your spawn has matured and spawned isms of its own...


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Sounds like a Hooker to me. No different between her and the $2.00 crack head on the corner that meets you in the ally



I'm sure you're just as judgemental about all of Hollywood, then, since an honest appraisal of the vast majority of todays movies will lead to the conclusion that they're all about sex and violence. And violent sex. And sexy violence.

And of course, to be consistent, you'd have to condem all the athletes in the world. They also make a living by selling their bodies. 

Or is it just S-E-X that bothers you?

It's her body. Who are YOU to decide what consenting adults can do?


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## granfire (Jan 11, 2012)

Not quiet getting the surrogate ...


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## ballen0351 (Jan 11, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm sure you're just as judgemental about all of Hollywood, then, since an honest appraisal of the vast majority of todays movies will lead to the conclusion that they're all about sex and violence. And violent sex. And sexy violence.
> 
> And of course, to be consistent, you'd have to condem all the athletes in the world. They also make a living by selling their bodies.
> 
> ...


Im not being judgemental I was answering the OP question if it was prostitution or not and as I said it is.  She is no better then the Crack head that will do whatever for $2.00 in the ally.

The S-E-X is what makes it ILLEGAL.  Its prostitution no matter what she tries to call it and last time I looked its Illegal In  California.

Hollywood and athletes dont sell S-E-X.  

I could care less what consenting adults do other then the fact that Prostitution is ILLEGAL and well since IM the PO-PO I have seen 1st hand that not all Prostitution is consenting.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 11, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Im not being judgemental I was answering the OP question if it was prostitution or not and as I said it is.  She is no better then the Crack head that will do whatever for $2.00 in the ally.



And is there anybody else other than you who doesn't see that as judgemental?



ballen0351 said:


> Hollywood and athletes dont sell S-E-X.  [/QUOTE}
> 
> What world do YOU live in? :BSmeter:


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## ballen0351 (Jan 11, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> And is there anybody else other than you who doesn't see that as judgemental?


Lucky for me I could care less what you or anyone else thinks :bangahead:



> ballen0351 said:
> 
> 
> > Hollywood and athletes dont sell S-E-X. [/QUOTE}
> ...


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## Makalakumu (Jan 12, 2012)

Maybe she just does it for tips?

I couldn't help it.

BTW - this is prostitution and that doesn't bother me a bit.  This sounds like a great business plan.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Maybe she just does it for tips?
> 
> I couldn't help it.
> 
> BTW - this is prostitution and that doesn't bother me a bit.  This sounds like a great business plan.


And if this was the norm for prostitution it wouldn't bother me either.  But its not the norm.  There are way more woman kidnapped or tricked from other countries mostly latin and south amreica that are forced to prostitute themselves.


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## Indagator (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> And if this was the norm for prostitution it wouldn't bother me either.  But its not the norm.  There are way more woman kidnapped or tricked from other countries mostly latin and south amreica that are forced to prostitute themselves.



Highest incidences of human and child trafficking are Eastern Europe, particularly the Ukraine afaik...


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## Big Don (Jan 12, 2012)

Why, I ask, is this legal but, the massage parlor girl giving  a happy ending is not? Both are a separate service followed by sex...


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## Sukerkin (Jan 12, 2012)

An intriguing question, Don.  I suppose it could be put forward that the 'surrogate' is providing a medical service as it is supposed to be 'therapy' of sorts?  But that's a tad tenuous I admit.

It's a similar question when you consider where 'art' stops and 'porn' begins.  Each of us has a 'guide-line' for ourselves about which is which but it is sometimes difficult to articulate it.


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## Tez3 (Jan 12, 2012)

Prostitution is not illegal in the UK nor many countries in Europe. Kerb crawling, forcing someone into prostitution, living off immoral earnings ( pimping) and pandering is illegal. I don't honestly see anything wrong with what she does, it's honest and straighforward unlike politicians and their expenses or 'trophy' wives.
So she sells sex and? No-one is forced to buy. Trafficking is a different issue altogether and not at all similiar to what she's doing.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

Big Don said:


> Why, I ask, is this legal but, the massage parlor girl giving  a happy ending is not? Both are a separate service followed by sex...



Its prob not legal she's just never been caught.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

Indagator said:


> Highest incidences of human and child trafficking are Eastern Europe, particularly the Ukraine afaik...



Must differ by region.  Here we have a higher concentration of latin gangs like MS13 that run huge prostitution rings.    Not just in urban areas too.  They found an MS 13. Brothel in my home town of 11 thousand people.  It was linked to a crew out of northern Va.  That town is over 2 hrs from N Va.  The girls were kidnapped from central american countries and forced to prostitute themselves or die.  We have found a few of these houses where i work as well.


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## granfire (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Must differ by region.  Here we have a higher concentration of latin gangs like MS13 that run huge prostitution rings.    Not just in urban areas too.  They found an MS 13. Brothel in my home town of 11 thousand people.  It was linked to a crew out of northern Va.  That town is over 2 hrs from N Va.  The girls were kidnapped from central american countries and forced to prostitute themselves or die.  We have found a few of these houses where i work as well.





Well, transport is easier....throw them in the back of a truck...


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## elder999 (Jan 12, 2012)

Big Don;[URL="tel:1452696" said:
			
		

> 1452696[/URL]]
> Can anyone explain how "Sexual Surrogates" are NOT over educated prostitutes? Because, Merriam Webster defines prostitute as:That one does other things as well, doesn't, IMO, change the fact that they are selling sex.



From Wikipedia:



> A *sexual surrogate* is a member of a sex therapy team who engages in intimate physical relations or sex with a patient in order to achieve a therapeutic goal. The practice was introduced by Masters and Johnson with their work on _Human Sexual Inadequacy_ in 1970.
> Most surrogates are women, a few are men, and there are married  couples that practice surrogacy together. Some surrogates work at  counseling centers while others have their own office. Some surrogates  offer additional services besides surrogacy such as telephone counseling  or sexological bodywork.
> 
> The majority of surrogates have professional certification in the  fields of sexuality, psychology or counseling. This allows them to work  closely with psychiatrists, psychologists, sexologists  and other therapists in the best interests of the patient. Sex  surrogates use a combination of three techniques  talking, listening  and demonstration  to help resolve a patient's sexual problems*.*


*
*


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

elder999 said:


> From Wikipedia:[/B][/B]


So you just need a prescripton, and referral from your primary care physician and your insurance will pay for your hookers.  No wonder medical cost are thru the roof.    Im sure they get paid by the hour for 2 min of work.


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## granfire (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> So you just need a prescripton, and referral from your primary care physician and your insurance will pay for your hookers.  No wonder medical cost are thru the roof.    Im sure they get paid by the hour for 2 min of work.




LOL, not everybody is THAT fast. 
:lol:

But then again we have this strange disconnect from the S-E-X part of our lives...we need the therapeutical professional outlet.


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## crushing (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> So you just need a prescripton, and referral from your primary care physician and your insurance will pay for your hookers. No wonder medical cost are thru the roof. Im sure they get paid by the hour for 2 min of work.



Heck, my insurance has helped me pay for steroids and other drugs from my local drug dealer.  A pharmacist is as much of a drug dealer as a sex therapist is a prostitute.


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## Tez3 (Jan 12, 2012)

So, how do disabled people have a sex life then or are they supposed to be celibate? perhaps people are uncomfortable with the idea that disabled people have sexual feelings and want to express them just like 'normal' people. Many 'normal' people would find having sex with someone who is disabled impossible because of their apprearance, condition etc so are disabled people supposed to just shut up and suppress their sexual feelings? 
This lady provides a service for people who wouldn't otherwise be able to have a sex life, they have needs just like any of us would you deny them? Would you tell them to find a partner when it's clear their condition means they will never find one or be in the same type of loving relationships as we think we are entitled to? 
Why cheapen what she does just because she charges a fee for it, there's good many other therapists out there who would charge more for far less good. I suspect it's that she's not ashamed of what she's doing and is open about it that disgusts many, sex should be seedy, unspoken, full of guilt not a wonderful thing in the manner she speaks of it, isn't that the way many see it?


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## Steve (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Sounds like a Hooker to me. No different between her and the $2.00 crack head on the corner that meets you in the ally


You really don't see a difference? Huh.  I mean, just off the top of my head, there's the crack addiction and the alley and everything these two things imply.


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## granfire (Jan 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> You really don't see a difference? Huh.  I mean, just off the top of my head, there's the crack addiction and the alley and everything these two things imply.



The bill, probably, too...


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> You really don't see a difference? Huh.  I mean, just off the top of my head, there's the crack addiction and the alley and everything these two things imply.



Nope paying for sex is paying for sex.  Just because its a rich white woman doing it opposed to a poor crack head dose not make one better then the other.  They are the same thing.  

I personally have no objection to prostitution.  However its not the romantic pretty woman story some people think.  Many prostitutes are raped assaulted exploited.  Id rather see something like in nevada with licensed brothels with security and medical check ups then people on the street hustling


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## granfire (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Nope paying for sex is paying for sex.  Just because its a rich white woman doing it opposed to a poor crack head dose not make one better then the other.  They are the same thing.
> 
> I personally have no objection to prostitution.  However its not the romantic pretty woman story some people think.  Many prostitutes are raped assaulted exploited.  Id rather see something like in nevada with licensed brothels with security and medical check ups then people on the street hustling





But according to your logic the person getting a script from a doctor for Loraset or Oxicodin is just as bad as the person getting it on the street...


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## Makalakumu (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Nope paying for sex is paying for sex.  Just because its a rich white woman doing it opposed to a poor crack head dose not make one better then the other.  They are the same thing.
> 
> I personally have no objection to prostitution.  However its not the romantic pretty woman story some people think.  Many prostitutes are raped assaulted exploited.  Id rather see something like in nevada with licensed brothels with security and medical check ups then people on the street hustling



Great post.  When we drive a market underground several things happen:

1.  The people involved cannot get help if they get in trouble because it's illegal.  The illegality of the situation creates a trap that's difficult to escape from
2.  The people who get involved in the market are willing to break the law.  This leads to the market being dominated by professional lawbreakers.  

Organized crime runs brothels because people like those mentioned in the OP cannot.  There's no doubt in my mind that a service like this would benefit people and would make money.  It's a shame that the industry is illegal that we let shady characters take it to the basest level.


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## Steve (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Nope paying for sex is paying for sex.  Just because its a rich white woman doing it opposed to a poor crack head dose not make one better then the other.  They are the same thing.
> 
> I personally have no objection to prostitution.  However its not the romantic pretty woman story some people think.  Many prostitutes are raped assaulted exploited.  Id rather see something like in nevada with licensed brothels with security and medical check ups then people on the street hustling


Paying for sex is the only thing the two have in common.  Do you understand what the word "different" means?

That you're distinguishing between the licensed brothels in Nevada and street hustling makes it clear to me that you do see the difference.  In this one short post, you're arguing two opposing positions.


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## Steve (Jan 12, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Great post.  When we drive a market underground several things happen:
> 
> 1.  The people involved cannot get help if they get in trouble because it's illegal.  The illegality of the situation creates a trap that's difficult to escape from
> 2.  The people who get involved in the market are willing to break the law.  This leads to the market being dominated by professional lawbreakers.
> ...


I agree with this completely, but this isn't what I took away from ballen's post.  It seems to me that when he says, 





> "_Nope paying for sex is paying for sex. Just because its a rich white woman doing it opposed to a poor crack head dose not make one better then the other. They are the same thing._


or





> _Sounds like a Hooker to me. No different between her and the $2.00 crack head on the corner that meets you in the ally_


that he's intentionally failing to acknowledge the benefits of decriminalizing the trade, bringing it out of the alleys, imposing regulations and some degree of oversight.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

granfire said:


> But according to your logic the person getting a script from a doctor for Loraset or Oxicodin is just as bad as the person getting it on the street...



No not at all.  
Those drugs are controlled and you need to possess a valid Prescription to buy them.  The people that sell them must be licensed to sell them.  Both of which are not present in street level narcotics transactions. 
Picking up the phone and calling or driving around looking for a prostitute no matter what fancy name she uses escort, surrogate, companion is illegal in most states.  Just like street level Narcotics sales.


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## Steve (Jan 12, 2012)

Are you suggesting that we decriminalize drugs?  


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> Paying for sex is the only thing the two have in common. Do you understand what the word "different" means?


The paying part is what makes it the same.  Its what makes it illegal.



> That you're distinguishing between the licensed brothels in Nevada and street hustling makes it clear to me that you do see the difference. In this one short post, you're arguing two opposing positions.



No Im arguing that one is legal and one is not.  Im not up on the laws in California but Im pretty sure paying for sex is illegal per California Penal Code 647(b) 

Ive already said in a perfect world where the woman is basically a small business ower of her own body then I have no problem with Prostitution.  Its the reality of abuse, rape,  runaway minors, explotation of drug addicted woman, kidnapping of woman in other countries and shipped to the US as sex slaves, and spread of disease that I am against.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> It seems to me that when he says, orthat he's intentionally failing to acknowledge the benefits of decriminalizing the trade, bringing it out of the alleys, imposing regulations and some degree of oversight.


The 1st question asked was who is a surrogate legal and a prostitute not.  I answered they are not they are both illegal in my opinion.  I wasnt commenting on my personal beliefs on prostitution.  I was commenting on my understanding of the law itself.  
Then I stated my personal belief on prostitution is that in theroy its not a bad thing however in reality its not as innocent as people tend to believe.  Ive seen the dark side of it and its very very bad.  Ive talked to woman kidnapped from el salvadore shipped up to the US and put in houses forced to have sex 10 to 20 times a day for months under threat of death.  Making it legal wont change that.  It will just make it harder to find out about.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> Are you suggesting that we decriminalize drugs?
> 
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.


Nope not at all.  I was giving my answer to whats the difference between a CVS and a drug dealer.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 12, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> The 1st question asked was who is a surrogate legal and a prostitute not.  I answered they are not they are both illegal in my opinion.  I wasnt commenting on my personal beliefs on prostitution.  I was commenting on my understanding of the law itself.
> Then I stated my personal belief on prostitution is that in theroy its not a bad thing however in reality its not as innocent as people tend to believe.  Ive seen the dark side of it and its very very bad.  Ive talked to woman kidnapped from el salvadore shipped up to the US and put in houses forced to have sex 10 to 20 times a day for months under threat of death.  Making it legal wont change that.  It will just make it harder to find out about.



You missed that 2nd part. Making it legal AND regulating it. It would NOT make it harder to find out about. In fact, based on basic economics, you would likely decrease consumption of illegal sex service, as the average customer is risk averse. Given a choice between the legal, tested, licensed sex worker, and the illegal, untested, unlicensed sex worker, the AVERAGE consumer will likely choose the former.

There will still be a black market, just as there is a black market for just about everything. However, that black market would _decrease_ based on legality providing the comparative advantage of safety, relative to the existing black market.


Now, in the USA, the best example we have of this is alcohol. Compared to the 20's, the black market for alcohol is almost non-existent, due to plentiful availability of legal alcohol will almost certainly not make you blind. But in the 20's, the opposite. And I've seen studies that alcohol consumption actually _decreased_ when prohibition was lifted (though I understand that especially when it comes to illegal consumption, statistics are shakey).


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

I have to love this, you guys have side stepped the issues this story brings up and gone straight to the sleaze.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 13, 2012)

I wouldn't want the government to regulate hookers.  Let private agencies compete to create a gold standard.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 13, 2012)

Tez, you're right. We got off topic. I say there is definitely some real benefit to this type of therapy.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

So it goes back to the original question.  Just because she claims to be treating a paitent it makes her not a prostitute but a woman at a high price escourt service or a street walker at a truck stop that does the same thing is?  What would you think if your spouse was seeing a sexual surrogate with out your knowledge?  Oh no honey I wasn't cheating she's a doctor.  We were having sex but as therapy not pleasure.  I didn't tell you because I was embarrassed.  I can hear Tiger woods now.  No wonder he got cracked with a golf club.


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> So it goes back to the original question. Just because she claims to be treating a paitent it makes her not a prostitute but a woman at a high price escourt service or a street walker at a truck stop that does the same thing is? What would you think if your spouse was seeing a sexual surrogate with out your knowledge? Oh no honey I wasn't cheating she's a doctor. We were having sex but as therapy not pleasure. I didn't tell you because I was embarrassed. I can hear Tiger woods now. No wonder he got cracked with a golf club.



Why do you go back to the sleaze factor? Why always the worst possible idea? What if you were a single severely disabled person who was trying to have as a best a life as they could, who had a normal sex drive and this woman could provide you with the sex life that 'normal' people take for granted? Sure she takes a fee for it but even if she didn't people would still call her names. 
We also don't know the conditions she puts on her therapy, she may be far more moral than you give her credit for.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Why do you go back to the sleaze factor? Why always the worst possible idea? What if you were a single severely disabled person who was trying to have as a best a life as they could, who had a normal sex drive and this woman could provide you with the sex life that 'normal' people take for granted? Sure she takes a fee for it but even if she didn't people would still call her names.
> We also don't know the conditions she puts on her therapy, she may be far more moral than you give her credit for.


We already have a place for severely disabled people to have sex its called the bunny ranch.  Point is call it what it is.  Don't give it a fancy name and try to sound like something its not.  I have no problem with people using a LEGAL prostitute.  All she did was give a fancy name to something to that was illegal to get around the law.  Good for her she found a loop hole to make money but again a duck is a duck no matter how hard it trys to tell you its a swan.


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2012)

And so you think she's a crack whore?

I'm still trying to figure out your position on this.  You seem to argue both sides from sentence to sentence.  Do you disapprove of what she's doing?  Would you support legalizing prostitution?   Are you suggesting that if she moved to Nevada, she would no longer be a crack whore?  Seriously.  I'm not trying to be a smartass.  

I can't honestly even tell if you object to what she's doing or not.  I think so, but is it because you think selling sex is bad or you just think that she's a criminal?  or something else?


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

Steve said:


> And so you think she's a crack whore?


Not unless shes addicted to crack which it does not say she is.  I do know all of the  prostitutes Ive ever spoke with were addicted to Crack or Heroin or some other drug.  



> I'm still trying to figure out your position on this.  You seem to argue both sides from sentence to sentence.  Do you disapprove of what she's doing?


I cant say I disapprove.  I do consider what he is doing to be prostitution not treating a medical condition.  So I disapprove from a legal stand point.  Personally I could care less what she does but dont try to act like it something its not.



> Would you support legalizing prostitution?


Yes and No.  I would have less of a problem with a legalized brothel type system.  Set places to go, licensed prostitutes, drug and medical testing for prostitutes, security for the prostitute and the client.
I would have a serious problem with a flat out ok its legal no rules no regulations.  I also would have a problem with legalized street walkers even if they were licensed and tested.  





> Are you suggesting that if she moved to Nevada, she would no longer be a crack whore?  Seriously.  I'm not trying to be a smartass.


 Im suggesting if she moved to Nevada she wouldnt be breaking the law like I feel she is in California.




> I can't honestly even tell if you object to what she's doing or not.  I think so, but is it because you think selling sex is bad or you just think that she's a criminal?  or something else?


I object to her trying to say shes not a prostitute when she clearly is.  According to the law as I read it in California where I think she is from it  states trading sexual contact for money is illegal.  I didnt read the entire section of the law but I didnt see any exceptions for medical reasons.  So I think in California she is a criminal.  I think in a place where Prostitution is legal then no she is not a criminal.

My personal beliefs are:  In a perfect world if you want to be a prostitute then its your body have at it.  BUT We dont live in a perfect world and Ive seen too many prostitutes that are beaten, raped, murdered, kidnapped, forced into prostitution under threat of death.  Runaways that are purposely hooked on drugs by Pimps and then forced into prostitution to get a fix.  So Im against it from that stand point.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

Prostitution and drugs are 2 areas where my Libertarian side clashes with my life experience side


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Not unless shes addicted to crack which it does not say she is.  I do know all of the  prostitutes Ive ever spoke with were addicted to Crack or Heroin or some other drug.


Okay.  So, that makes sense.  When you said that there was no difference between her and a crack whore, you were being hyperbolic.  





> I cant say I disapprove.  I do consider what he is doing to be prostitution not treating a medical condition.  So I disapprove from a legal stand point.  Personally I could care less what she does but dont try to act like it something its not.


So, were it legal, you would just consider it to be a clinical brothel.





> Yes and No.  I would have less of a problem with a legalized brothel type system.  Set places to go, licensed prostitutes, drug and medical testing for prostitutes, security for the prostitute and the client.
> I would have a serious problem with a flat out ok its legal no rules no regulations.  I also would have a problem with legalized street walkers even if they were licensed and tested.


I agree with you on this completely.  





> Im suggesting if she moved to Nevada she wouldnt be breaking the law like I feel she is in California.
> 
> I object to her trying to say shes not a prostitute when she clearly is.  According to the law as I read it in California where I think she is from it  states trading sexual contact for money is illegal.  I didnt read the entire section of the law but I didnt see any exceptions for medical reasons.  So I think in California she is a criminal.  I think in a place where Prostitution is legal then no she is not a criminal.
> 
> My personal beliefs are:  In a perfect world if you want to be a prostitute then its your body have at it.  BUT We dont live in a perfect world and Ive seen too many prostitutes that are beaten, raped, murdered, kidnapped, forced into prostitution under threat of death.  Runaways that are purposely hooked on drugs by Pimps and then forced into prostitution to get a fix.  So Im against it from that stand point.


Okay.  Thank you for taking the time to explain your position more clearly.  Turns out, I agree with you for the most part.  What she's doing is a form of prostitution, but I don't have any problems at all with her doing it.  It is illegal, but as with other things, I see this as being a senseless area where we can decriminalize the situation and make it safer and a lot less seedy.  Not to mention generate some revenue for the government through both taxes AND eliminating the cost of enforcing these laws.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

Steve said:


> Okay. Thank you for taking the time to explain your position more clearly. Turns out, I agree with you for the most part. What she's doing is a form of prostitution, but I don't have any problems at all with her doing it. It is illegal, but as with other things, I see this as being a senseless area where we can decriminalize the situation and make it safer and a lot less seedy. Not to mention generate some revenue for the government through both taxes AND eliminating the cost of enforcing these laws.


With Govt regulation then Prostitution without a "license" (for lack of a better term) would still be illegal.  That I could somewhat support.  I still personally think its pretty pathetic for a grown man to pay for sex.   Sometimes the only way we are able to help these woman that are being exploited is to make an arrest for Prostitution and then get them away from the "Pimp" and try and get them help.


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

You know, she could be just what she says she is, a therapist and goodness knows there's a hell of a lot of men who think they are great in bed who could actually do with going to her. They could learn how to actually make love to a woman and they could learn how to appreciate a woman in bed. And yes I know you are all thinking well that's some other guy, not me. Many women will never tell the man they love that they are lousy in bed. 
There's also a lot of men who actually do need sexual therapy, those that have been abused, victims of peadophiles, those that have problems actually having sex or being intimate with a woman, sometimes a hands on approach is what's needed and not with a bored prostitute who won't take the time to guide a chap through. What about men who have lost confidence about making love, why not a sympathic therapist to help him, the list is a long one of men who can be helped by a sex therapist and not just a bog standard prostitute who doesn't care about her work. 
 Decriminalise prostitution then you can start dealing with the other problems like drugs, pimps etc. Start thinking about all the men a woman like the one in the article could actually help, go on I dare you.


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> With Govt regulation then Prostitution without a "license" (for lack of a better term) would still be illegal.  That I could somewhat support.  I still personally think its pretty pathetic for a grown man to pay for sex.   Sometimes the only way we are able to help these woman that are being exploited is to make an arrest for Prostitution and then get them away from the "Pimp" and try and get them help.


I heard a quick sound byte just the other day on this subject.  This is from memory, so I may have some details wrong, but I think it's a 4 person team of cops who pick up girls and try to get them off the streets.  There's a halfway house and a program to try and turn them around. 

The issue isn't strictly prostitution, though.  It's human trafficking and preying upon underage girls.  While certainly prostitution is a big part of this, they're two separate issues.  

On a different radio channel, the owner of the Bunny Ranch was talking to the guys on the afternoon radio show on the local rock station.  He was commenting on the safety of his brothels as compared to the only two counties within Nevada where prostitution is illegal: Vegas and Reno.  His point was that one need only look at the girls in his cat houses and compare them to the diseased and drug addicted girls working in the two counties where it's banned to see the value of decriminalizing the trade.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You know, she could be just what she says she is, a therapist and goodness knows there's a hell of a lot of men who think they are great in bed who could actually do with going to her. They could learn how to actually make love to a woman and they could learn how to appreciate a woman in bed. And yes I know you are all thinking well that's some other guy, not me. Many women will never tell the man they love that they are lousy in bed.
> There's also a lot of men who actually do need sexual therapy, those that have been abused, victims of peadophiles, those that have problems actually having sex or being intimate with a woman, sometimes a hands on approach is what's needed and not with a bored prostitute who won't take the time to guide a chap through. What about men who have lost confidence about making love, why not a sympathic therapist to help him, the list is a long one of men who can be helped by a sex therapist and not just a bog standard prostitute who doesn't care about her work.
> Decriminalise prostitution then you can start dealing with the other problems like drugs, pimps etc. Start thinking about all the men a woman like the one in the article could actually help, go on I dare you.



No matter how you try to make it sound sweet, and all for a good cause, sex for money regardless of reason is prostitution.  Im not saying her intentions are wrong, Im not even saying prostitution is bad Im just saying call it what it is.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

The NOT so sweet side of things:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/22083762/ns/today-today_people/t/sex-slaves-human-trafficking-america/
In spring of 2004, Katya (not her real name), like thousands of other foreign exchange university students, was looking forward to the summer job placement that she and a friend had received in Virginia Beach, Va. When she and her friend Lena arrived at Dulles Airport after a long flight from Ukraine, they were relieved to be met by fellow countrymen who spoke Russian. 
The two men, Alex Maksimenko and Michael Aronov, were holding signs with the girls names and greeted them by taking their bags and luggage. Charming and reassuring, Aronov informed the girls that they had been reassigned to a job in Detroit where they would waitress and perfect their English language skills. 
The men drove Katya and Lena to the Greyhound bus station and gave them tickets to Detroit. Confused and exhausted, the girls had no reason to question the change of plans. 
When we got to the hotel in Detroit, everything changed, says Katya. They closed the door and sat us down on the couch, took our passports and papers and said, You owe us big money for bringing you here. They gave us strip clothes and told us that we were going to be working at a strip club called Cheetahs.

Shocked and scared, the two women were subjected to physical, mental and sexual abuse  over the next year as they were forced to work 12-hour shifts stripping for local Detroit mens clubs. According to immigration customs agent Angus Lowe, the men controlled the women through intimidation with guns and threats to hurt family members back home. 

Katya and her friend are two of the estimated _*17,000 young women and girls annually who are forced to work in the sex industry in the U.S. by organized criminals*_. Chicago, Houston, St. Paul, Minnesota, these crimes are happening in every community in America big and small, says Marcie Forman, director of investigations for ICE (Immigration Customs Enforcement).   Were talking about money here. Millions of dollars, and these people dont think about these women as human beings. They think of them as dollars and cents, Forman says. 
In February 2005, after months of planning and finally confiding in a customer from the strip club, the two girls escaped and were brought to the FBI and ICE. Their escape resulted in the arrest of Alex Maksimenko and Michael Aronov, both of whom pleaded guilty and are serving time in federal prison for their crimes. 
Even though her captors are in prison, Katya says she will never live without fear. Maksimenkos father  who was also convicted of forced labor and illegal trafficking  continues to live openly in Ukraine as a fugitive from authorities.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

Steve said:


> I heard a quick sound byte just the other day on this subject. This is from memory, so I may have some details wrong, but I think it's a 4 person team of cops who pick up girls and try to get them off the streets. There's a halfway house and a program to try and turn them around.
> 
> The issue isn't strictly prostitution, though. It's human trafficking and preying upon underage girls. While certainly prostitution is a big part of this, they're two separate issues.



Yeah I watched a news program 20/20 or 60 min I cant remember but they were following a group in Pheonix I believe that did the same thing.

We raided a few MS-13 brothels here a while back and to hear the womans stories of being kidnapped smuggled into the US and forced to have sex with 20 men a day was very sad.  They said if they refused not only would they be killed but families back home as well.


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## Tez3 (Jan 13, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> No matter how you try to make it sound sweet, and all for a good cause, sex for money regardless of reason is prostitution. Im not saying her intentions are wrong, Im not even saying prostitution is bad Im just saying call it what it is.



Not that long ago many women's problems were put down, by doctors, as hysteria and the cure for that was to make the women orgasm, the male doctors did this. The doctors were paid. Everyone thought this was frightfully correct and proper, however this lady uses sexual tecniques in her therapy, not necesarily sexual intercourse and she gets called a prostitute 'because that's what she is'. Mmm....... of course.
http://www.sensualmentality.com/Hysteria.html


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2012)

The doctors were, technically, also prostitutes.  Nowadays, they'd certainly be prosecuted... at least in America.


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## Steve (Jan 13, 2012)

Does remind me of a woman who would convulse for a moment after she sneezed.  I sat next to her on a plane.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Not that long ago many women's problems were put down, by doctors, as hysteria and the cure for that was to make the women orgasm, the male doctors did this. The doctors were paid. Everyone thought this was frightfully correct and proper, however this lady uses sexual tecniques in her therapy, not necesarily sexual intercourse and she gets called a prostitute 'because that's what she is'. Mmm....... of course.
> http://www.sensualmentality.com/Hysteria.html


That sounds 100% unethical and illegal to prescribe sex with yourself. At least on most of the info I have read today regarding sex therapy the doc treating the patient and the one actually having the sexual contact are different people.



http://www.surrogatetherapy.org/codeofethics.html
The designation "surrogate partner" shall apply only in a therapeutic situation comprised of client, surrogate, and supervising therapist. A surrogate partner may be designated to act primarily as either a substitute partner or a co-therapist depending upon the agreement between the surrogate and the therapist.
The surrogate's relationship with the client is temporary; always within the context of the therapeutic situation and in association with the supervision of the therapist.


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## wushuguy (Jan 13, 2012)

Alright people, let's not get too hyped up and hysterical about this topic. We don't want to have mass hysteria...





Tez3 said:


> Not that long ago many women's problems were put down, by doctors, as hysteria and the cure for that was to make the women orgasm, the male doctors did this. The doctors were paid. Everyone thought this was frightfully correct and proper, however this lady uses sexual tecniques in her therapy, not necesarily sexual intercourse and she gets called a prostitute 'because that's what she is'. Mmm....... of course.
> http://www.sensualmentality.com/Hysteria.html


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## Makalakumu (Jan 13, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I still personally think its pretty pathetic for a grown man to pay for sex.



There are lots of reasons to pay for sex.  Imagine if someone opened a business that would teach people how to have really good sex.  You could get legitimate hands on instruction from professionals that could show you how to knock your partners socks off!  That would be way better then learning from books and videos.  Think about all of the threads on MT saying that you can't learn "martial" arts from videos and books.  The same applies to "marital" arts!  LOL!


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