# To those who don't care about belt rank



## PhotonGuy (May 9, 2014)

There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts. The way I see it, that's their choice. If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine, its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me. I like to do stuff in life. I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 9, 2014)

Belts are for the business aspect of martial arts schools so they can give people a sense of an accomplishment but in reality it dosent mean much other then that. I've met many middle belt students that could out spar a black belts. 

The true purpose of a belt is/was to act as a back or internal organ support or help in holding the garment together.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2014)

Ranking is for "quality control". If your association requires tournament winning record, your association members will be forced to compete in tournament.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts. The way I see it, that's their choice. If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine, its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me. I like to do stuff in life. I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.



If you think that those of us who have been downplaying the importance of belt ranks are "bumps on logs" who aren't into working hard to achieve things, then you are seriously misreading us. Speaking for myself, I've put quite a lot of hard work into my martial arts training over the last 30 years.

The point that many of us have made is that the important achievements you earn through your hard work are skill, knowledge, and self-transformation. If your particular art happens to include belt ranks and you happen to receive such a rank, that is merely public _recognition _of what you have achieved. If you put in the work and never got the recognition, the achievement is still there.


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## Steve (May 9, 2014)

Belts are very important for sparring and competition.


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## drop bear (May 9, 2014)

We don't have them. Although I was thinking about buying one.

Probably get a camo belt.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We don't have them. Although I was thinking about buying one.
> 
> Probably get a camo belt.


When you wear camo belt, nobody will know how long that you have trained. 

If 

- you beat up a black belt, you can tell him that you have trained for 20 years (so he won't feel too bad about himself). 
- a white belt beat you up, you can tell him that you just start your training last week (so he won't feel too good about himself).


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## drop bear (May 9, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you wear camo belt, nobody will know how long that you have trained. If you beat a black belt, you can tell him that you have trained for 10 years. If a white belt beat you up, you can tell him that you just start your training last week.




Best of both worlds. Mabye I should do this instead.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Best of both worlds. Mabye I should do this instead.


Then you will need to get yourself this uniform.






It's not difficult to confuse people's "ranking system" concept if you really want to.

When the guy on the left who came to learn from me, he already had 15 years in western wrestling experience. When giving public demo, I didn't want him to wear "white belt", so I gave him a "camo belt" to wear instead.


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## ks - learning to fly (May 9, 2014)

IMO - Don't get me wrong, I am proud of what I have accomplished in TKD and am very excited to achieve my future goals in the martial arts..
Fortunately, I have also learned the importance of humility and know - without question - that my rank/belt is merely a bi-product of the work.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2014)

One problem about the 

- ranking system is when someone gets his black belt, he may think that his job is done and quit from MA training for the rest of his life.
- non-ranking system is the teaching qualification is difficult to control.


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## skribs (May 9, 2014)

There are merits to belt rank and non-belt-rank systems.  Belt ranks are a good way to structure a curriculum or to choose comparable training partners, as well as to give goals and progression.  However, they are flawed, and sometimes you have a low-rank person who is a lot better than a higher-rank person.

The problem is when you say that a rank system is bad because it's just about the money or when you say you have to have a belt rank or else it's pointless.  Respect both systems, because they both have their pros and cons.


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## Danny T (May 9, 2014)

Why would you think of someone not concerned about rank as being a bump on a log or that they are care not about achievement?
  I could not care less about Belt rank. 
  The color of one&#8217;s belt means nothing, NOTHING!! 
  The achievement is what one has learned and skills developed that one can apply at the proper time. The color of my belt cannot help me but what I have learned and gained through the training and sparring can and that achievement is what is important to me. If that comes with a belt color ok but it is not the belt I care about.

  I have trained to high levels in Shotokan, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, Tai Chi, Silat, Boxing, and Wrestling. Shotokan is the only one that has a belt rank. I can only assume to you the others are but bumps on a log and there is no achievement within them.  That&#8217;s your choice to train a martial art that uses belt but I as have many others  &#8216;have&#8217; done stuff in life. We have achieved high level skills and abilities through hard work and it was without a belt being involved!


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## geezer (May 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts. The way I see it, that's their choice. If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine, its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me. I like to do stuff in life. I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.



"Doing stuff" in life is good. Getting a rank or certificate that _says_ you have done stuff is less important. Especially in martial arts.


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## Buka (May 10, 2014)

If you're training in a place that has belt ranks,  then you should be part of the belt ranking. If you're training in a  place that doesn't have belts then none of the above applies to your  situation.

If you are training in a place that has both a belt ranking system - and a section of your gym/dojo that just allows you to exercise etc - if you are not part of that belt system you will never learn much about that martial art.

If  a student is in a belt system and "doesn't care about belts" - while it  may create a certain sense of romance and dancing to the beat of a  different drummer for that student - bottom line is that student has  created a feeling of not caring about something central and important to  his situation and training. A shame, really.

IMO the only reason not to care about belts is either not to have one, or have a closet full of them.


Drop Bear - you can't wear that camo belt. We won't be able to see you when sparring. No fair!


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## donnaTKD (May 10, 2014)

if you join a gym / dojo and it runs a belted system then you're automatically part of that system no matter what your views about it are irrelavant - just swallow your thoughts and crack on with the training   you're paying to be trained in whatever it is that you signed up for - so take it on the chin and go with the flow   donna


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## skribs (May 10, 2014)

> if you join a gym / dojo and it runs a belted system then you're  automatically part of that system no matter what your views about it are  irrelavant - just swallow your thoughts and crack on with the training   you're paying to be trained in whatever it is that you signed up for - so take it on the chin and go with the flow   donna​



Yes, but one factor whether or not you join a gym in the first place should be if you agree with their practices or not.  If you disagree with a lot of what's at the studio, or if the things that you disagree with are very important to you, then you won't be as inclined to keep going.


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## donnaTKD (May 10, 2014)

there are choices though and those free lessons plus info that's available at the point of entry - every gym / dojo has leaflets and their websites if they have one tell you if they are going to suit your beliefs.

so there is no excuse for being misinformed or saying so.


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## WaterGal (May 10, 2014)

Buka said:


> If  a student is in a belt system and "doesn't care about belts" - while it  may create a certain sense of romance and dancing to the beat of a  different drummer for that student - bottom line is that student has  created a feeling of not caring about something central and important to  his situation and training. A shame, really.



Yeah.  In my experience, when someone in a style with a belt system says, "I don't care about getting belts", usually what they really mean is either that they don't value their school's curriciulum and just want to practice whatever stuff they want, or that they're scared to test and are saying that to save face.  Sometimes, they do mean, "I care about progressing, just not about the belt color", but that's not usually said in the same kind of whining way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> 1. "I don't care about getting belts", usually what they really mean is either that they don't value their school's curriciulum and just want to practice whatever stuff they want,
> 2. or that they're scared to test and are saying that to save face.


I agree with your 1st comment but not your 2nd comment.

When I was in NYC back in 1971, I worked 2 jobs and only slept for 4 hours in the park (homeless) for 3 months, my body was in very bad shape. I could not push myself hard enough to get back in shape. I decided to joint in the local YMCA MA class as a white belt. I didn't intend to learn anything from that class but just tried to bring myself back in shape. When the instructor asked me to take his ranking test, I told him that I was not interested. So you are right, when someone doesn't want to take the ranking test, there is a good possibility that person may not be serious about that style. 

As far as "scare to take the test", IMO, that test was just too easy for me. 

- downward block, punch,
- upward block, punch,
- side step, block, punch,
- ...

I stayed in that class for 3 months, one day in sparring, I had defeated a 1st degree black belt in front of everybody. That black belt felt so ashamed that he had lost to a white belt. What he didn't know was I had trained more than twice as long as the did. That sparring event just turned everything upside down in that YMCA MA class. I left that class ASAP right after that. 

One of my classmates that I met in that class Steve McAdam is a famous local 7 degree black belt Aikido instructor today. So I was not the only one that was not serious about that MA class.

» Coaches UT Aikido Club


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## oaktree (May 10, 2014)

I have practice a couple of arts some such as Baguazhang for about 9 years I have no official rank I never asked my teacher never tested me and I don't think either of us
really care either way. One of my teachers has been doing one art for almost 15 years he does not have rank he says what his teacher has given him is more than enough.
I think of rank as a gift from my teachers if they give it to me but I am more interested in just training, listening to their stories and teachings them having a belt around my waist.


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## skribs (May 10, 2014)

> I think of rank as a gift from my teachers if they give it to me but I  am more interested in just training, listening to their stories and  teachings them having a belt around my waist.



If someone told me my rank was a gift I'd be a bit insulted.  I worked hard to get where I am.  I realize that the skills are what really matter, but the fact is the belt is the shiny trinket that says "you have acquired X skills and proved it."


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## Mark Lynn (May 11, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts.



True the whole belt thing, especially below black belt ranks, isn't that old only around 130 years old.  However in other martial cultures like the Philippines there was no belts nor titles given by a governing body.



PhotonGuy said:


> The way I see it, that's their choice. If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine, its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me. I like to do stuff in life.



Not everyone who doesn't care about rank and achievement are bumps on a log.  And I'm sure that people who don't care about rank like stuff in life and living life to it's fullest just like you do.



PhotonGuy said:


> I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.



In the Filipino martial arts adapting the whole belt as rank thing is still relatively new probably in the last 50-60 years as the FMAs have started to adapt to the Japanese belt ranks (and other training methodology) to reach out and grow the arts word wide.  However the old training methods of hitting each other with the sticks or blades instead of hitting the rattan sticks together (like we do today) was very painful and hard work.  Much like the modern MMA gym today were the fighters are ranked by skill and fights fought, in the old days in the FMAs you rose up in the gym by being ranked as a fighter not by what belt you wore.


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## Mark Lynn (May 11, 2014)

skribs said:


> If someone told me my rank was a gift I'd be a bit insulted.  I worked hard to get where I am.  I realize that the skills are what really matter, but the fact is the belt is the shiny trinket that says "you have acquired X skills and proved it."



I think the poster was referring to rank being a gift as something that was bestowed on a person but not expected nor required.  In that the giver of rank was acknowledging the person work and training and bestowing or giving them that rank.  No that the person was giving out rank as a gift that had no meaning because there was no effort behind it.

For instance I had an aikijutsu teacher who told me that past a certain black belt rank the instructor would one day come up to you and present you with your new rank.  In a sense it was a "gift" in that it wasn't something he was paying for, it wasn't something that because he had this amount of time in the school he was obligated to be raised to the next rank etc. etc.  It was his instructor's acknowledgement of his skill level and it was time for him to be promoted.  At my last promotion my sensei promoted me along with others to our next dan rank, again I consider it a "gift" because he wasn't required to promote me, I hadn't paid for the rank, it was totally up to him to acknowledge my skill or contribution in the martial arts (or lack thereof) and I had no input or say so about it period.


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## Mark Lynn (May 11, 2014)

Steve said:


> Belts are very important for sparring and competition.



I have to totally disagree with you here.

Belt have nothing to do with sparring; just because a lower belt beats a more senior belt in sparring, under sparring rules, doesn't mean diddley squat.  The one person had a better match than the other, big deal.

I agree belt ranks in competition are important but only to set up the divisions, likewise so is gender, age, weight etc. etc.

But what rank is important for is to help set out responsibilities in the dojo.  In that lower ranks shouldn't have to take on the teaching responsibilities of the more senior instructors.  For instance the younger/newer (in years at the dojo) 3rd or 4th dans shouldn't have to take on the teaching duties of the 30+ year dojo veteran who just never wanted to advance beyond shodan.

The 30+ year shodan probably has a lot to offer the school in experience, but has found an easy way to hang out and hide out in the background.


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 11, 2014)

oaktree said:


> I have practice a couple of arts some such as Baguazhang for about 9 years I have no official rank I never asked my teacher never tested me and I don't think either of us
> really care either way. One of my teachers has been doing one art for almost 15 years he does not have rank he says what his teacher has given him is more than enough.
> I think of rank as a gift from my teachers if they give it to me but I am more interested in just training, listening to their stories and teachings them having a belt around my waist.



Well said 



Strive To Be A Martial Artist & Not A Jock Artist.


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## Steve (May 11, 2014)

Mark Lynn said:


> I have to totally disagree with you here.
> 
> Belt have nothing to do with sparring; just because a lower belt beats a more senior belt in sparring, under sparring rules, doesn't mean diddley squat.  The one person had a better match than the other, big deal.
> 
> ...



Belts exist because Kano needed an easy way to manage randori.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## skribs (May 11, 2014)

I think the notion of belts being good for sparring is it gives you an idea of who to match up with who.  While it is good to spar with someone higher than you, it's also good to spar against someone of comparable skill to apply what you learned against the higher belt, and a belt system is a good way to show experience.  Plus, the higher belts won't get better if they only ever spar the lower belts.


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## Grenadier (May 11, 2014)

Using a belt system isn't being materialistic or silly.  

The bottom line is that in today's society, we like to see tangible progress as we undergo the training, and having a belt system in place helps answer some of those questions, which can keep people's interest going. 

The belt system itself isn't going to change a system.  If it's used properly, it simply helps keep things standardized, and provides a bit of incentive to your students.


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## Buka (May 11, 2014)

I've been in a lot of Martial Arts  schools. Friends own them, associates own them, competitors own them,  I've run a few for a lot of years and I have been a student for what seems like  ever. I've noticed something consistently in the belt rank system of  Gracie ju-jitsu schools as compared to other schools, my own included. 

In  Gracie schools there is white, blue, purple, brown and black. I find a  greater discrepancy in knowledge and abilty with each rank in Gracie  compared to anything else I've experienced, or seen, in Martial Arts. In  rolling (sparring) blacks beat browns, browns beat purples, purples  beat blues and blues beat whites. I know, I know, we can all say that  about our schools,  but nowhere even close as to how it is in Ju-jitsu.  Yes, you will occasionally see a seasoned blue belt tap a new purple  belt (and on down the line) but don't bet on a seasoned brown belt  losing to a blue belt in a roll. Ain't gonna' happen. Or a really,  really good purple belt besting a black belt, even a new one. There are  always exceptions, of course, but those exceptions are few and far.
To me, it really is something that stands out noticeably.

In  Karate, while the above still applies on certain levels, there will be a  lot of occasions where a lower belt, because of off the chart  athleticism and, perhaps, a physical and mental toughness from life experience, will best students of higher rank. I've never seen that in jits. Not even a sniff of it.

I  also find that the knowledge of their art, their technique and their  history is more complete than in other schools I've been in - or taught  in. If I meet someone that is a student of the arts and learn they're a  brown belt in whatever - I really have no idea of their ability and  knowledge, how long they've trained or how well versed they might be in  sparring.(not that I care, just making a point) In that same context - if I learn someone is a brown in Gracie I know exactly what's up. Always.

Please keep in mind that I am a proud karate man. It's just an observation.


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## skribs (May 11, 2014)

Buka, I think a big part of that is the time per belt.  In TKD, for example, it can range anywhere from 1 month to 4 months between belts, depending on your school.  Some schools will basically just push belts onto you, others will actually require you meet testing requirements, so it may be longer, but in general 1-2 month average per belt can be expected.  In BJJ, you're looking at *years* per belt even before black belt.

My TKD school, before black belt, goes White-Yellow-Purple-Orange-Green-Green (1 Stripe)-Blue-(Blue 1, Blue 2)-Red (Red 1, Red 2) - Black.  We test every 2 months, although some people test every 4, and a lot of people slow down around blue or red.  Let's just go with 12 belts and 2 mo/test for comparison, because I think that's common of TKD.

A new BJJ Blue belt has probably been doing this for a year.  That means he is the equivalent of a blue belt under the TKD system mentioned above.  However, while the blue belt has tested several times, the BJJ student only has earned one belt.  Now let's look at purple belt, that's another 2 years in grade.  By this time, the TKD practitioner (if they've kept up) is probably a 1st Dan - 2nd Gup.  Assuming they've slowed down, they're probably High Blue or Red.  After another year and a half, the BJJ student is brown, and the TKD guy is almost definitely a black belt, probably 2nd degree closing in on 3rd if they've kept pace.  A BJJ black belt is probably the equivalent of a TKD 3rd degree in terms of experience.

So yes, in TKD, green vs. orange isn't much different.  Blue 2 vs. red isn't much different.  But, comparing green to white belt, or green 1/blue to red 1/red 2...yeah, there's a difference.  Comparing a fresh black belt to someone approaching 3rd degree testing, there's a big difference.  I think that's why you see such a difference in BJJ between belts compared with other arts.  You get a new belt every few years instead of months.

I'll also agree with your assessment that grappling arts are less about physical ability and more about knowledge of the art and practice with the application.


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## Dirty Dog (May 11, 2014)

skribs said:


> I think the notion of belts being good for sparring is it gives you an idea of who to match up with who.  While it is good to spar with someone higher than you, it's also good to spar against someone of comparable skill to apply what you learned against the higher belt, and a belt system is a good way to show experience.  Plus, the higher belts won't get better if they only ever spar the lower belts.



On the other hand, when was the last time you were in a school that was so big as to require belts to know who is farther along in their training?


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## Dirty Dog (May 11, 2014)

skribs said:


> Buka, I think a big part of that is the time per belt.  In TKD, for example, it can range anywhere from 1 month to 4 months between belts, depending on your school.  Some schools will basically just push belts onto you, others will actually require you meet testing requirements, so it may be longer, but in general 1-2 month average per belt can be expected.  In BJJ, you're looking at *years* per belt even before black belt.
> 
> My TKD school, before black belt, goes White-Yellow-Purple-Orange-Green-Green (1 Stripe)-Blue-(Blue 1, Blue 2)-Red (Red 1, Red 2) - Black.  We test every 2 months, although some people test every 4, and a lot of people slow down around blue or red.  Let's just go with 12 belts and 2 mo/test for comparison, because I think that's common of TKD.
> 
> ...



Or longer. Our students might only be white belts or yellow belts for a couple months, but since our average to 1st Dan is 6-8 years, you can figure on longer than 4 months. By 3rd geup, our students are probably looking at about a year between promotions. 



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## skribs (May 12, 2014)

Like I said, it depends on the school and it depends on the person.  I think typical times for TKD to get black belt are either 2 years (although a lot of people say these are too fast) or 3-5 years (making a black belt comparable to a bachelor's degree in terms of experience).  Your school might be a little slow in terms of belts, but that of course just most likely means your 1st Dan BBs are better than those from other schools on average.

My point is that with only 5 belts, vs. several from TKD, you are going to see a bigger variance from one belt to the next.  There are 8 colors in my school, not including stripes, including White and Black.  There are 9 colors in other schools that also add brown to the mix.  If these 8 or 9 colors take the same amount of time as 4 or 5 colors of BJJ, then obviously there will be a bigger skill gap between belts in BJJ.


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## MJS (May 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts. The way I see it, that's their choice. If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine, its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me. I like to do stuff in life. I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.



Not caring is being a bump on a log? LOL, ok...consider me a bump then!   As I've said a thousand times, and probably a thousand more:  I do care about rank.  It's not a bad thing.  However, I don't place it as high on the pedestal as others do.  Some people are all about the rank, as if that alone, is the determining factor of skill in the arts.  I don't know about you, but in all of the years that I've been training, I've seen some people who certainly didn't deserve the rank they had tied around their waist!!  People that are Green, Brown and even Black belts, and their stances suck, their kata sucks, their punches and kicks suck!  When I see that, to me, that doesn't indicate hard work.  And if it does indicate hard work, then clearly that teacher views hard work very differently.  

Sorry, but there are much more important things to worry about, than that new belt or stripe.  Now, don't mistake that for me not liking when I get a new belt after a test.  Difference is, I'm not in any rush.  If it takes me 3 months or 3 years to advance to my next belt, then so be it.  I don't want anything handed to me.  I want to bust my ***, and put in the hard work.  Especially when you're going for a higher rank.


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## MJS (May 12, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah.  In my experience, when someone in a style with a belt system says, "I don't care about getting belts", usually what they really mean is either that they don't value their school's curriciulum and just want to practice whatever stuff they want, or that they're scared to test and are saying that to save face.  Sometimes, they do mean, "I care about progressing, just not about the belt color", but that's not usually said in the same kind of whining way.



Well, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I'll disagree with you.  I do value my school's curriculum.  I practice the material that's required for my rank.  I'm certainly not scared to test.  I've had more than my share of tests in 20+yrs of training.  However, since the student is a reflection of the teacher, and in many cases, the tests are open to public viewing, I want to look my very best!  

The belt, the color...really doesn't mean anything.  What matters most is: How you perform the material, how well you can apply it, how well you understand it, how well you can adapt to changes, etc.  Those are just a few things.


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## donnaTKD (May 12, 2014)

i agree with what you're saying - the belt colour in itself is neither here nor there but the representation that you make at testing reflects the skill of the instructor in teaching you and also acts as an advert for the school that your representing.


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## WaterGal (May 12, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> On the other hand, when was the last time you were in a school that was so big as to require belts to know who is farther along in their training?



I think you're going to hit that as soon as you get more than maybe 50 or 60 students, especially if you have more than a few belts and not everyone is progressing at the same pace.  It can get hard to remember, oh, is Student X still a belt ahead of Student Y, or did Y catch up or even pass X?


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## WaterGal (May 12, 2014)

MJS said:


> Well, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I'll disagree with you.  I do value my school's curriculum.  I practice the material that's required for my rank.  I'm certainly not scared to test.  I've had more than my share of tests in 20+yrs of training.  However, since the student is a reflection of the teacher, and in many cases, the tests are open to public viewing, I want to look my very best!
> 
> The belt, the color...really doesn't mean anything.  What matters most is: How you perform the material, how well you can apply it, how well you understand it, how well you can adapt to changes, etc.  Those are just a few things.



So you're the person I mentioned that cares about progressing in your schools system, just not about wearing a certain color on your waist.  That's fine.

But in my experience, someone like you does not go around talking all the time about how they don't care about the belt system and getting belts. About how a black belt is just a piece of cloth and doesn't mean anything. In my experience, that person is usually saying that either because they're not committed to actually learning the style, or as an excuse to explain why they've stopped training/testing/whatever.  

We've got a red belt guy that's doing that right now, talking a lot about how he doesn't care about getting a black belt and is fine with just being a color belt forever. I know he feels self-conscious because he's older and not as flexible or athletic as a lot of the other students, and I'm pretty sure the source of this "I don't care about belts" is that he's scared that he'll look bad at his black belt test.


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## skribs (May 12, 2014)

> I think you're going to hit that as soon as you get more than maybe 50  or 60 students, especially if you have more than a few belts and not  everyone is progressing at the same pace.  It can get hard to remember,  oh, is Student X still a belt ahead of Student Y, or did Y catch up or  even pass X?



Or if you have various classes that people sometimes mix and match.  At my school, you're mostly separated into kid or adult classes by belt rank (adult beginner+intermediate or advanced, vs. kids beginner, intermediate, and then one class per belt...he's got about 8x the kids as adults), but then there's family classes and all kid or all adult classes for makeup, plus a few others.  When you get into a family class or all kid/adult class and you don't know the other people...yeah, it helps.


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## wingchun100 (May 12, 2014)

skribs said:


> Or if you have various classes that people sometimes mix and match.  At my school, you're mostly separated into kid or adult classes by belt rank (adult beginner+intermediate or advanced, vs. kids beginner, intermediate, and then one class per belt...he's got about 8x the kids as adults), but then there's family classes and all kid or all adult classes for makeup, plus a few others.  When you get into a family class or all kid/adult class and you don't know the other people...yeah, it helps.



All you can hope for by that point is that maybe you have a couple "senior students" who could help you run things.


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## skribs (May 12, 2014)

I'm a student, not an instructor, so I don't have to worry 

That was adding on to what watergal said about having 50-60 students and then having trouble keeping track of who's advanced so far.  That's what belt systems do for instructors:  help you remember where in the curriculum each student is.  (It also gives them a disciplinary option of making you wear white belt for the day if you act arrogant or unsportsmanlike).  In a small class it might be easy to keep track, but with a large group that's in-and-out of various classes, you're going to probably want some sort of aide to help you keep track.


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## Buka (May 12, 2014)

skribs said:


> I'm a student, not an instructor, so I don't have to worry
> 
> That was adding on to what watergal said about having 50-60 students and then having trouble keeping track of who's advanced so far.  That's what belt systems do for instructors:  help you remember where in the curriculum each student is.  (It also gives them a disciplinary option of making you wear white belt for the day if you act arrogant or unsportsmanlike).  In a small class it might be easy to keep track, but with a large group that's in-and-out of various classes, you're going to probably want some sort of aide to help you keep track.



As an instructor - you know every one of your students above white belt. It doesn't matter if there's a hundred or more, you know them, their rank, their strengths and weaknesses and what they need to progress. You might forget some things years after they quit, but not much, really.

As the years go by it gets to the point where you know a whole lot after a student's been training for just a couple months. I suppose it's just like anything else where you deal with a lot of people.


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## Dirty Dog (May 12, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> I think you're going to hit that as soon as you get more than maybe 50 or 60 students, especially if you have more than a few belts and not everyone is progressing at the same pace.  It can get hard to remember, oh, is Student X still a belt ahead of Student Y, or did Y catch up or even pass X?



We currently have about 70 students. No problem keeping track of where people are without looking at their belts. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## skribs (May 12, 2014)

What about when you start getting into the 200+ student range?


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## Dirty Dog (May 12, 2014)

skribs said:


> What about when you start getting into the 200+ student range?



They'd still be broken down in class as beginners, intermediate, or advanced. 
So next you'll ask about when there's 200 in the intermediate class. It won't matter then, either, since they're close enough in skill. Pick any two mid-level students. That's close enough. You're not seriously about to suggest that the world will end if a 3rd geup is matched with a 7th, are you?

Rank and belts serve a purpose, but they're just not vital. I'd have no problem teaching in a program that didn't use them. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## skribs (May 12, 2014)

Breaking it down into beginner/intermediate/advanced isn't exactly a belt system, but is still a ranking system.  I thought the spirit of this thread was ranking vs. non-ranking.


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## Dirty Dog (May 12, 2014)

skribs said:


> Breaking it down into beginner/intermediate/advanced isn't exactly a belt system, but is still a ranking system.  I thought the spirit of this thread was ranking vs. non-ranking.



I haven't noticed anybody actually taking the position that it's even POSSIBLE to have "no rank". There will always be those who are students, those who are teachers, and the much much larger group of those who are both. 

However, my comments have ONLY been directed at the position that a ranking system is somehow necessary in order to know what student is at which point in their training or for pairing students for sparring. 
It's not. 
I'm sorry if it wasn't clear from the start exactly what I was addressing. I sort of thought it would be clear to anybody reading the thread. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2014)

In ACSCA (American Combat Shuai Chiso Assoc.),

the

- 1st degree black belt will need to prove his MA knowledge.
- 2nd degree black belt will need to prove his tournament winning record (MA ability).
- 3rd degree black belt will need to prove his teacher ability (teacher certificate).

Any rank higher than that will need to prove his contribution to the MA such as:

- give public demonstration to promote MA,
- offer workshops,
- tournaments sponsor,
- publish books/DVDs,
- train team to compete in national level or international level tournaments,
- ...


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## Kong Soo Do (May 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some people who don't care about belt ranks in the martial arts.



That's correct.  And there are many arts that don't use the system at all.  It isn't necessary for serious training.



> The way I see it, that's their choice.



Or the way their system works or the way they were taught.


> If somebody doesn't care about rank and achievement fine,...



Rank and achievement aren't necessarily the same thing.  One can achieve their desired goal regardless if a belt system is used, or if it is used what rank is earned.


> its your choice to be a bump on a log and I respect that, but that's not me.



Doesn't sound like you respect it at all.  That's a pretty sweeping, and inaccurate statement.  George Matteson has told the story of training in Okinawa many decades ago with three men wearing white belts at the home Dojo.  They obviously weren't white belts and he later learned that they were actually 5th Dans.  When asked why they were wearing white belts they replied that the just never got around to getting a black one and didn't think it would affect their karate one way or the other.  That is the correct view of rank imnsho.



> I like to do stuff in life. I like to earn stuff through hard work and I like to achieve stuff through hard work.



So do many people.  Some just realize that the color of the cloth...or the actual wearing of a piece of cloth has nothing to do with personal achievement, hard work or reaching a goal.


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## MJS (May 13, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> So you're the person I mentioned that cares about progressing in your schools system, just not about wearing a certain color on your waist.  That's fine.
> 
> But in my experience, someone like you does not go around talking all the time about how they don't care about the belt system and getting belts. About how a black belt is just a piece of cloth and doesn't mean anything. In my experience, that person is usually saying that either because they're not committed to actually learning the style, or as an excuse to explain why they've stopped training/testing/whatever.
> 
> We've got a red belt guy that's doing that right now, talking a lot about how he doesn't care about getting a black belt and is fine with just being a color belt forever. I know he feels self-conscious because he's older and not as flexible or athletic as a lot of the other students, and I'm pretty sure the source of this "I don't care about belts" is that he's scared that he'll look bad at his black belt test.



I'm sure my posts come across as not caring.  I hold 2 Black Belts...a 4th in Kenpo, and a 1st in Modern Arnis.  I'm a Yellow/green stripe in Kyokushin.  I certainly respect my teachers, and no, I don't say to them that I don't care about the ranking system.  I do say though, that I'm not one to chase rank.  If/when the time comes, that my teacher feels I'm ready to advance, then so be it.  For me, I'm more concerned with learning the art, and improving myself.  That, IMHO, far out weighs the color of the belt, all day, any day.  For my last belt test, when my teacher told me to start preparing, I'll admit that *I* didn't feel that I was ready, and even asked if he was sure that I was ready.  Apparently I was, because I passed a long, exhausting test.  

IMO, the belts a simply a visual indication of where you are currently, in the system.  While it should be an indication of skill, unfortunately, in many cases, it is not.  That is why I say what I say.  People think they're all bad-*** when they get their BB, but yet watching them perform...well, frankly, they don't look too bad-***.


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## drop bear (May 13, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> I haven't noticed anybody actually taking the position that it's even POSSIBLE to have "no rank". There will always be those who are students, those who are teachers, and the much much larger group of those who are both.
> 
> However, my comments have ONLY been directed at the position that a ranking system is somehow necessary in order to know what student is at which point in their training or for pairing students for sparring.
> It's not.
> ...



We don't have a big club but everybody just trains with everybody pretty much.


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## tshadowchaser (May 13, 2014)

take any class and have the students leave their belts off and stand anywhere but where they normally would, then start the class. If some one watching the whole class can not tell who has knowledge and who dose not by the end of class then something is wrong.  The belts do not have knowledge the students do.
Ranking is fine and dose denote the place anyone has within the school that gave it to them, but it has little to do with anything else.  The same rank in the same system may not denote the same knowledge within different schools in that system.
A person who has rank in a system or a couple systems may study a different system and not care about getting ranked but is there simple for knowledge. The learning of new things  or different applications of the same movement is what they seek. Knowledge of the history of a new system and how the techniques within that system differ from another system are the knowledge STUDENTS of the arts seek.  
Rank is an ego trip not a necessary thing, other than teacher/ student and teachers /teacher


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## Tony Dismukes (May 13, 2014)

skribs said:


> Buka, I think a big part of that is the time per belt.  In TKD, for example, it can range anywhere from 1 month to 4 months between belts, depending on your school.  Some schools will basically just push belts onto you, others will actually require you meet testing requirements, so it may be longer, but in general 1-2 month average per belt can be expected.  In BJJ, you're looking at *years* per belt even before black belt.
> 
> My TKD school, before black belt, goes White-Yellow-Purple-Orange-Green-Green (1 Stripe)-Blue-(Blue 1, Blue 2)-Red (Red 1, Red 2) - Black.  We test every 2 months, although some people test every 4, and a lot of people slow down around blue or red.  Let's just go with 12 belts and 2 mo/test for comparison, because I think that's common of TKD.
> 
> ...



In addition to the difference in time between belts (typically 2-3 years per belt in BJJ as opposed to 2-3 months per belt in TKD), there is also the fact that belt promotion in BJJ tends to rest heavily* on demonstrating technical grappling prowess on the mats day in and day out. It doesn't matter how long you've been training or how good you can look while demonstrating techniques - if you can't hang with most of the brown belts and dominate most of the purple belts, then you aren't getting promoted to brown belt.

*(Some allowance is made for size/age/etc. If you are a purple belt matched against a blue belt who is twice your size, you might be expected to only match him evenly rather than dominate him.)


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## Buka (May 13, 2014)

skribs said:


> Buka, I think a big part of that is the time per belt.  In TKD, for example, it can range anywhere from 1 month to 4 months between belts, depending on your school.  Some schools will basically just push belts onto you, others will actually require you meet testing requirements, so it may be longer, but in general 1-2 month average per belt can be expected.  In BJJ, you're looking at *years* per belt even before black belt.
> 
> My TKD school, before black belt, goes White-Yellow-Purple-Orange-Green-Green (1 Stripe)-Blue-(Blue 1, Blue 2)-Red (Red 1, Red 2) - Black.  We test every 2 months, although some people test every 4, and a lot of people slow down around blue or red.  Let's just go with 12 belts and 2 mo/test for comparison, because I think that's common of TKD.
> 
> ...



I can hear ya, brother, I have a decade of crazed old school TKD in my background. (been a long time) And while every Art is different, TKD and BJJ are about as different as any two Arts can be. I agree with Tony (above) about the application on the mat. it seems that the training in Jits is more related to the  application of technique to a resisting opponent than in the other arts I've experienced, and there have been a few. It seems to lead to a better real  word understanding of technique and it's practical application. I have found, on the whole, that  advanced Jits practitioners will understand the nuance of any  technique, and be able to express that knowledge in words AND  teaching, than we strikers do. (I can hear all my Karate guys screaming  at me now) But, that's been my experience and that's all I can base my comments on.

I don't think this has anything to do with what's better,  what's applicable in a fighting or anything else, it's just different. I used to teach basic grappling skills in my instructor's TKD dojo, and man, talk about changing hats. Often, I'd walk with the class outside, go around the building with them and come back in - just to shake up their mindset and get them to a different place.


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## skribs (May 13, 2014)

> I have found, on the whole, that  advanced Jits practitioners will  understand the nuance of any  technique, and be able to express that  knowledge in words AND  teaching, than we strikers do.



I don't have any experience with BJJ (I have watched a couple seasons of TUF on Fox and some MMA highlights videos on youtube, does that count?), but having done TKD and a bit of HKD I understand what you're saying.  With striking, you don't have to have the perfect technique to still do damage.  It helps, but you can be imperfect and still hit pretty hard.  With grappling, you need to grip the exact right spot in the exact right way or your leverage and pain compliance is gone.  I think good grappling requires a lot more precision than good striking.


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## Buka (May 13, 2014)

skribs said:


> I don't have any experience with BJJ (I have watched a couple seasons of TUF on Fox and some MMA highlights videos on youtube, does that count?), but having done TKD and a bit of HKD I understand what you're saying.  With striking, you don't have to have the perfect technique to still do damage.  It helps, but you can be imperfect and still hit pretty hard.  With grappling, you need to grip the exact right spot in the exact right way or your leverage and pain compliance is gone.  I think good grappling requires a lot more precision than good striking.



I'm not sure if grappling requires more precision than striking. I never really thought about that before. I'll think on it some. (and probably still be wrong  )

And, yes, Youtube and Fox count.


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## skribs (May 13, 2014)

Well in that case I've been watching for almost a year now so I should be a blue belt!  :boing1:
In all seriousness, BJJ looks like a lot of fun and I'd love to take it (actually have a few schools nearby that look pretty good), but I don't have the time or money to take it without detracting from my primary art 

It probably depends some on the art, too.  Doing Hapkido, for example, it's mostly about wrist locks.  One little thing, such as how far around the hand you grip, what you do with your other hand, *how* you step when you throw, etc. all make a *huge* difference in whether or not the other person does what you want them to.


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## ballen0351 (May 13, 2014)

We have been known to wear different belt colors depending on the day.  St Patty's day we all throw on Green belts, 4th of July Blue or white, Valentines day we sport red and reds not even in our system.  If you remember your anniversary of when you started you wear your white belt that day.  Half the time we don't wear belts at all.  You know what rank you are and where you belong.  You know if one groups working on something more advanced you find a group that's at your level.  We are all adults its not the teachers job to tell you where you go its yours to remember your place.  Plus classes are broken up by times and levels as well so you know when you show up and what time you leave so its not that hard to figure this stuff out.


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## Dirty Dog (May 13, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We don't have a big club but everybody just trains with everybody pretty much.



Apparently, some people don't think that system works. 
Personally, I don't care if I'm working with the newest student, or our Kwanjang. If I can't benefit from the time we spend training together, the problem is totally mine. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## WaterGal (May 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> They'd still be broken down in class as beginners, intermediate, or advanced.



If they are.  Not all schools do things that way.

We divide by age but not by belt rank, because otherwise we wouldn't have room in the schedule for our Hapkido & Kumdo classes, and because it makes the schedule a lot more flexible.


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## Buka (May 15, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> We have been known to wear different belt colors depending on the day.  St Patty's day we all throw on Green belts, 4th of July Blue or white, Valentines day we sport red and reds not even in our system.  If you remember your anniversary of when you started you wear your white belt that day.  Half the time we don't wear belts at all.  You know what rank you are and where you belong.  You know if one groups working on something more advanced you find a group that's at your level.  We are all adults its not the teachers job to tell you where you go its yours to remember your place.  Plus classes are broken up by times and levels as well so you know when you show up and what time you leave so its not that hard to figure this stuff out.



Green belts on St Patty's day, white belt on anniversary etc. - that's one of the coolest things I ever heard. After a workout yesterday, my wife and I were hiking up a tough hill, it was hot and we were beat. She said, "tell me something to take my mind off my damn quad muscles". So I told her about your post. The look on her face - She said, "why didn't we think of that, why haven't I seen that before!" She never mentioned her quads again.


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## ballen0351 (May 15, 2014)

Buka said:


> Green belts on St Patty's day, white belt on anniversary etc. - that's one of the coolest things I ever heard. After a workout yesterday, my wife and I were hiking up a tough hill, it was hot and we were beat. She said, "tell me something to take my mind off my damn quad muscles". So I told her about your post. The look on her face - She said, "why didn't we think of that, why haven't I seen that before!" She never mentioned her quads again.



Yeah it started as a joke 4 of us showed up with our green belts on st patty day thinking sensei would tell us to take them off.  He walked out smiled walked back in his office came out with a green belt on.  Took off from there.  We talked about buying pink belts for breast cancer month then paying like a small donation to wear them as a fundraiser for cancer awareness that's in the works for this October


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## drop bear (May 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Apparently, some people don't think that system works.
> Personally, I don't care if I'm working with the newest student, or our Kwanjang. If I can't benefit from the time we spend training together, the problem is totally mine.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



I like it. It keeps the older guys honest and motivates the newer ones. It is good to do stuff where the other guy does not fit the pattern so much.

But we don't really have a rank progression of techniques though.


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## MartialMellow (Jun 1, 2014)

A little article about Kung Fu belt ranks, which came about in the twentieth century:  The Order of Belt Colors in Kung Fu | LIVESTRONG.COM


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 1, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Why would you think of someone not concerned about rank as being a bump on a log or that they are care not about achievement?
> I could not care less about Belt rank.
> The color of ones belt means nothing, NOTHING!!


That depends on who you get the belt rank under. If you train under a good hard sensei with good high standards you will not get a high belt rank if you haven't worked hard and achieved much. The high belt rank is a result of your progress, knowledge, ability, and hard work and that's what it symbolizes, at least that's how it is if you get it from a sensei who has high standards for high ranks and doesn't just hand out or sell belt ranks.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 1, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah.  In my experience, when someone in a style with a belt system says, "I don't care about getting belts", usually what they really mean is either that they don't value their school's curriciulum and just want to practice whatever stuff they want, or that they're scared to test and are saying that to save face.  Sometimes, they do mean, "I care about progressing, just not about the belt color", but that's not usually said in the same kind of whining way.



Yes, and if a student is in a style with a ranking system and doesn't care about ranks that student will probably not progress much since usually in such styles and dojos you don't learn certain stuff until after you get to certain ranks.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 1, 2014)

Grenadier said:


> Using a belt system isn't being materialistic or silly.
> 
> The bottom line is that in today's society, we like to see tangible progress as we undergo the training, and having a belt system in place helps answer some of those questions, which can keep people's interest going.
> 
> The belt system itself isn't going to change a system.  If it's used properly, it simply helps keep things standardized, and provides a bit of incentive to your students.



Exactly. Just like scout rank in Boyscouts. Lots of people on Boyscouts strive to become Eagle Scouts, the highest rank in scouting. Is there anything wrong with wanting to get As in school? Is there anything wrong with wanting to get an Eagle Badge in Boyscouts? If there isn't, than there isn't anything wrong with wanting to get a black belt in a martial art, typically the highest belt color in arts that use a belt ranking system.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 1, 2014)

skribs said:


> If someone told me my rank was a gift I'd be a bit insulted.  I worked hard to get where I am.  I realize that the skills are what really matter, but the fact is the belt is the shiny trinket that says "you have acquired X skills and proved it."



I would be insulted and offended too. I would never train under a sensei who just hands out ranks. If Im going to get a black belt, I want to get it under a sensei who has hard high standards and doesn't just hand out ranks.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 1, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Doesn't sound like you respect it at all.  That's a pretty sweeping, and inaccurate statement.  George Matteson has told the story of training in Okinawa many decades ago with three men wearing white belts at the home Dojo.  They obviously weren't white belts and he later learned that they were actually 5th Dans.  When asked why they were wearing white belts they replied that the just never got around to getting a black one and didn't think it would affect their karate one way or the other.  That is the correct view of rank imnsho.


The fact of the matter is that those three men with white belts had achieved the rank of 5th Dan even if they didn't openly show it by wearing the proper colored belts. What's important is obtaining the rank, not obtaining some external physical object that merely symbolizes the rank be it a belt or a badge or whatever. Those men had reached the rank of 5th Dan and knew it, that's whats important.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 1, 2014)

MJS said:


> Not caring is being a bump on a log? LOL, ok...consider me a bump then!   As I've said a thousand times, and probably a thousand more:  I do care about rank.  It's not a bad thing.  However, I don't place it as high on the pedestal as others do.  Some people are all about the rank, as if that alone, is the determining factor of skill in the arts.  I don't know about you, but in all of the years that I've been training, I've seen some people who certainly didn't deserve the rank they had tied around their waist!!  People that are Green, Brown and even Black belts, and their stances suck, their kata sucks, their punches and kicks suck!  When I see that, to me, that doesn't indicate hard work.  And if it does indicate hard work, then clearly that teacher views hard work very differently.
> 
> Sorry, but there are much more important things to worry about, than that new belt or stripe.  Now, don't mistake that for me not liking when I get a new belt after a test.  Difference is, I'm not in any rush.  If it takes me 3 months or 3 years to advance to my next belt, then so be it.  I don't want anything handed to me.  I want to bust my ***, and put in the hard work.  Especially when you're going for a higher rank.



Those people with high belt ranks that had very terrible stances, katas, punches and kicks, and I've seen people like that too although not at my dojo, would've trained under a sensei who doesn't have high standards for rank and who just hands belts out, I would never train under such a sensei.

And as far as it taking three months or three years or whatever to go up a belt rank, if you do bust your *** and work hard enough, than you should be able to go up a rank sooner than if you didn't bust your *** and work as hard. If you go up a belt rank in a relatively short time it doesn't necessarily mean you were handed the rank, it could mean that you worked harder and thus got there quicker.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes, and if a student is in a style with a ranking system and doesn't care about ranks that student will probably not progress much since usually in such styles and dojos you don't learn certain stuff until after you get to certain ranks.




Incorrect, in my experience. Those who are focused on rank tend to progress slower than those who focus on technique.



PhotonGuy said:


> The fact of the matter is that those three men with white belts had achieved the rank of 5th Dan even if they didn't openly show it by wearing the proper colored belts. *What's important is obtaining the rank*, not obtaining some external physical object that merely symbolizes the rank be it a belt or a badge or whatever. Those men had reached the rank of 5th Dan and knew it, that's whats important.



Completely disagree. What's important is obtaining skill.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes, and if a student is in a style with a ranking system and doesn't care about ranks that student will probably not progress much since usually in such styles and dojos you don't learn certain stuff until after you get to certain ranks.



Yeah, I've never cared for the teaching business model which goes "you don't get to learn anything new until you get promoted so get ready to fork over those testing fees." Fortunately, almost none of the schools where I have trained follow that philosophy. BJJ has belts, but at my gym blue belts are welcome to train with black belts and learn as much as they can regardless of rank.


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## MJS (Jun 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Those people with high belt ranks that had very terrible stances, katas, punches and kicks, and I've seen people like that too although not at my dojo, would've trained under a sensei who doesn't have high standards for rank and who just hands belts out, I would never train under such a sensei.



Agreed.



> And as far as it taking three months or three years or whatever to go up a belt rank, if you do bust your *** and work hard enough, than you should be able to go up a rank sooner than if you didn't bust your *** and work as hard. If you go up a belt rank in a relatively short time it doesn't necessarily mean you were handed the rank, it could mean that you worked harder and thus got there quicker.



I see your point, however, there's more to it than that.  I'm always amazed at why people put such a huge focus on the belt, as if getting to black in 9 yrs, or 9 mos is the most important thing in the world.  Of course, as you said above, regarding the teacher with high standards...well, if they had high standards, they wouldn't promote a student every month.  

Isn't it funny...if we look at an art like BJJ, where it takes upwards of 10yrs to get Black.  And then people wonder why someone with a low rank in BJJ, usually mops the floor with a higher ranked person in another art.  It's all about quality, not quantity.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Incorrect, in my experience. Those who are focused on rank tend to progress slower than those who focus on technique.


Somebody who is focused on rank would be focused on technique because you need good technique to go up in rank, at least if you've got a good sensei you will need that. It makes sense that a student who wants to go up in rank would be working on what they need to go up in rank.



Dirty Dog said:


> Completely disagree. What's important is obtaining skill.


And by going up in rank, that shows that you've obtained skill since as I said before, skill is required for rank. When you obtain rank, that means you've obtained skill and all the other necessary requirements and have accomplished something. The same way that obtaining academic knowledge will get you an A. There's nothing wrong with getting As is there?


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2014)

MJS said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As for a teacher with high standards not promoting a student every month, lets say the student is really exceptional and is able to meet the sensei's standards every month as high as they might be? Im talking hypothetical as a student that good would have to be superhuman, such as if Clark Kent signed up for lessons, but if such a student does exist and is able to meet the really high standards of a really hard teacher, than why shouldn't the teacher promote?

As for it taking 10yrs to get a black belt in BJJ, well, that would depend on the school as many people might market that they teach BJJ and might have different standards for promotion just like in all arts, but at any school that can call their art Gracie JiuJitsu not BJJ I would expect it to take 10 years or more to get a black belt. Most schools have to call it BJJ and not Gracie JiuJitsu because the Gracies have trademarked the name but the Gracies have given some dojos permission to use their name and a sensei who teaches at such a dojo was no doubt taught by the Gracies themselves or has some connection with them and therefore you can expect it to be really hard. The Gracies are so successful in the martial arts not because of their style but because they work hard. And black belt is not then end of learning in the Gracie system or in any other system, its just the beginning. Getting a black belt means you've reached the base of the mountain and can now start the climb.


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## geezer (Jun 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> ....Getting a black belt means you've reached the base of the mountain and can now start the climb.



Very Philosophical, but *I call BS. *

I hear this quoted so often ...and maybe it's true in some systems. But a black belt in BJJ is _not_ a beginner. And in the stuff I train it's _not_ true either. First off, I should say that the systems I train are not Japanese rooted systems so we don't use "belts". But we do have _ranks. _And when you have achieved "Primary Level" or "First Instructor Grade" -- or what we consider to be "Black Belt" equivalent, _no-way are you a beginner_. You are a journeyman at the craft with a very solid foundation. Or to put it another way, you have your bachelors degree. Sure there is a great deal more to be learned, just as a student can pursue a masters or doctoral degree, not to mention the wisdom that comes later from many years experience in the field. Still you are way more than a beginner.

Besides, two guys I've trained under in one of these arts _never even earned a "black belt"_ in any art, and both were definitely masters at what they did. The majority of us who trained under them were either black belts in other systems or else successful competitors. But unlike some folks, these guys could walk the walk and didn't obsess over rank.

Now I have nothing against ranking systems, They are a great way to insure a basic standard of quality and also help to motivate students. But rank really isn't _that_ important. Don't you think that this thread has gone on long enough?


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## MJS (Jun 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> As for a teacher with high standards not promoting a student every month, lets say the student is really exceptional and is able to meet the sensei's standards every month as high as they might be? Im talking hypothetical as a student that good would have to be superhuman, such as if Clark Kent signed up for lessons, but if such a student does exist and is able to meet the really high standards of a really hard teacher, than why shouldn't the teacher promote?



Because there are such things as time in grade.  My current teacher is traditional, old school and has high standards.  The idea of someone being able to meet those standards, test every month and get a BB in a years time, is a ****ing joke!  If you want to train under a teacher like that, go ahead, but I never would, nor would I promote a student monthly.  



> As for it taking 10yrs to get a black belt in BJJ, well, that would depend on the school as many people might market that they teach BJJ and might have different standards for promotion just like in all arts, but at any school that can call their art Gracie JiuJitsu not BJJ I would expect it to take 10 years or more to get a black belt. Most schools have to call it BJJ and not Gracie JiuJitsu because the Gracies have trademarked the name but the Gracies have given some dojos permission to use their name and a sensei who teaches at such a dojo was no doubt taught by the Gracies themselves or has some connection with them and therefore you can expect it to be really hard. The Gracies are so successful in the martial arts not because of their style but because they work hard. And black belt is not then end of learning in the Gracie system or in any other system, its just the beginning. Getting a black belt means you've reached the base of the mountain and can now start the climb.



The Gracie family trademarked the name because it's a family name.  They're not the only ones who do BJJ.  I think you also missed my point.  I'm saying that on average, it's a good 10yrs for a BB in BJJ.  So, let me ask you...why do you say that you'd expect it to take 10yrs there, but not in another art?  You don't see the belt hungry whores in a BJJ school.  I've been at a few different places that taught BJJ.  Everyone that I've seen, is more concerned with training and learning the art and getting better.  When the time comes to promote, then it happens.  

As for the last part...getting a BB means you've reached the base....  Well, I too, will call BS on that, along with geezer.  People, IMHO, are WAY too fixated with the belt.  The belt isn't going to fight for you.  I've been training for 20+yrs.  I've seen under belts with more skill than some BB's that I've seen over the years.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2014)

geezer said:


> Don't you think that this thread has gone on long enough?



No. A thread should go on as long as it goes on. As long as people respond. If you think a thread has gone on too long than you can drop out of it, you've got the freedom to do so.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2014)

MJS said:


> Because there are such things as time in grade.  My current teacher is traditional, old school and has high standards.  The idea of someone being able to meet those standards, test every month and get a BB in a years time, is a ****ing joke!  If you want to train under a teacher like that, go ahead, but I never would, nor would I promote a student monthly.


Obviously it is a joke as I was speaking hypothetically which I said so in my earlier post. What I meant was if there was a superhuman student who could meet such high standards every month why not promote them every month? I said it before and I will say it again, such a student would never exist but Im talking about a hypothetical situation. You mention time in grade. Lets forget about the concept of once a month promotion for now and just talk getting to the next grade and the time it takes to get there. To go up a belt requires a certain degree of physical and mental development, skill, knowledge, and ability. To acquire the necessary knowledge and abilities to go up a rank takes time, you're not going to acquire them instantaneously. The time it takes to acquire the knowledge and abilities perhaps should be the, "time in grade," no matter how short or long it takes the student to acquire those necessary attributes. Just something to consider. It takes time to become of the proper material for a belt promotion, and that's where time and patience comes into play with rank promotion.



MJS said:


> The Gracie family trademarked the name because it's a family name.  They're not the only ones who do BJJ.  I think you also missed my point.  I'm saying that on average, it's a good 10yrs for a BB in BJJ.  So, let me ask you...why do you say that you'd expect it to take 10yrs there, but not in another art?  You don't see the belt hungry whores in a BJJ school.  I've been at a few different places that taught BJJ.  Everyone that I've seen, is more concerned with training and learning the art and getting better.  When the time comes to promote, then it happens.
> 
> As for the last part...getting a BB means you've reached the base....  Well, I too, will call BS on that, along with geezer.  People, IMHO, are WAY too fixated with the belt.  The belt isn't going to fight for you.  I've been training for 20+yrs.  I've seen under belts with more skill than some BB's that I've seen over the years.



The Gracies obviously aren't the only ones who to BJJ but they're the only ones who do, "Gracie JiuJitsu," them and others who've trained under them or who've trained under those who the Gracies have given permission to use their name. But as you said, that's beside the point. As for it taking 10 yrs to get a black belt in BJJ but not in other arts, that would depend on whose teaching it, not on the art. You have senseis who just hand out belts and then you have senseis who make their students work hard to earn the belts. I did once take classes at a BJJ school but at that particular school they used the name Gracie, they called it Gracie JiuJitsu because they had been given permission by the Gracies to do so. Anybody who the Gracies let use their name I would expect very high standards for promotion and I wouldn't be surprised for it to take a good 10 years for somebody to get a black belt there. I do not have any experience with places that taught BJJ and didn't use the Gracie name in their art so I can't say anything about how their promotions work to any degree of accuracy.

Now, you call it BS about how getting a black belt means you've reached the base. The fact of the matter is its all relative and I will state the obvious that when getting a black belt, if that means you're an expert or a serious beginner or even, for that matter, a raw beginner who was handed a black belt and is an embarrassment to ones self it depends who you got it from. As you said, you've seen lower belts with more skill than some black belts. That just goes to show how standards vary from place to place as to what a black belt is. Some places have low standards for black belt and I would not want to get a black belt at such a place.

As people have said on this thread, its not about rank its about skill and ability. I would have to say its not about rank, its about who you get the rank from and if you get a high rank from a good sensei than you will have good skill and ability, otherwise you wouldn't get it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> As for it taking 10yrs to get a black belt in BJJ, well, that would depend on the school as many people might market that they teach BJJ and might have different standards for promotion just like in all arts, but at any school that can call their art Gracie JiuJitsu not BJJ I would expect it to take 10 years or more to get a black belt. Most schools have to call it BJJ and not Gracie JiuJitsu because the Gracies have trademarked the name but the Gracies have given some dojos permission to use their name and a sensei who teaches at such a dojo was no doubt taught by the Gracies themselves or has some connection with them and therefore you can expect it to be really hard.



This is a bit of a derail, but Rorion Gracie's trademark on the term "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" was overturned in court. Rorion got the U.S. trademark and was threatening other family members who were using the term, even though the name had been commonly used in Brazil. The trademark was overturned as the result of a lawsuit by Carley Gracie, who had been teaching in the U.S. longer than Rorion had.  

However during the time that Rorion had been wielding the trademark, most schools in the U.S. had to use some other term and so "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" became the new default name.

As far as the standards for promotion, they're pretty high no matter where you go in the BJJ world. The emphasis may change from school to school - some teachers might expect you to win a bunch of tournaments before being promoted, while others might expect you to be expert at teaching self-defense applications - but 10 years for a black belt is about average everywhere. You'll find variance from that, but it usually has more to do with the student than the teacher. A student with phenomenal natural talent and a great attitude who trains for hours every day might get his black belt in 4 years. Someone with less talent or time to train might get it in 15 years, or never. I've been training BJJ for 10 years now and I'm probably a couple of years away from getting my black belt. I have a friend who has been training on and off for the same time who is still a blue belt.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> As for a teacher with high standards not promoting a student every month, lets say the student is really exceptional and is able to meet the sensei's standards every month as high as they might be? Im talking hypothetical as a student that good would have to be superhuman, such as if Clark Kent signed up for lessons, but if such a student does exist and is able to meet the really high standards of a really hard teacher, than why shouldn't the teacher promote?



Well, if we're going to leave the real world and turn this into a fantasy, then you're absolutely right. Because Clark Kent would need to quickly earn that belt, since it would make Superman immune to Kryptonite.

In the real world, it remains true that what matters is skill, not the belt.


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## drop bear (Jun 2, 2014)

geezer said:


> Very Philosophical, but *I call BS. *
> 
> I hear this quoted so often ...and maybe it's true in some systems. But a black belt in BJJ is _not_ a beginner. And in the stuff I train it's _not_ true either. First off, I should say that the systems I train are not Japanese rooted systems so we don't use "belts". But we do have _ranks. _And when you have achieved "Primary Level" or "First Instructor Grade" -- or what we consider to be "Black Belt" equivalent, _no-way are you a beginner_. You are a journeyman at the craft with a very solid foundation. Or to put it another way, you have your bachelors degree. Sure there is a great deal more to be learned, just as a student can pursue a masters or doctoral degree, not to mention the wisdom that comes later from many years experience in the field. Still you are way more than a beginner.
> 
> ...



You can teach at blue in the beej?


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## geezer (Jun 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You can teach at blue in the beej?


I wouldn't know anything about that. I train Ving Tsun and Eskrima. Did a bit of kenpo in college, and wrestled before that.


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## MJS (Jun 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Obviously it is a joke as I was speaking hypothetically which I said so in my earlier post. What I meant was if there was a superhuman student who could meet such high standards every month why not promote them every month? I said it before and I will say it again, such a student would never exist but Im talking about a hypothetical situation. You mention time in grade. Lets forget about the concept of once a month promotion for now and just talk getting to the next grade and the time it takes to get there. To go up a belt requires a certain degree of physical and mental development, skill, knowledge, and ability. To acquire the necessary knowledge and abilities to go up a rank takes time, you're not going to acquire them instantaneously. The time it takes to acquire the knowledge and abilities perhaps should be the, "time in grade," no matter how short or long it takes the student to acquire those necessary attributes. Just something to consider. It takes time to become of the proper material for a belt promotion, and that's where time and patience comes into play with rank promotion.



Well, it's really crazy, because while those stand out shining stars are out there, they're rare.  But all that aside, IMHO, handing out a rank every month, takes the value out of it.  Some will disagree, and that's fine.  The McDojo's of the world will thrive, because of people who're belt hungry.  Fortunately, there are still many quality schools out there, that demand that you put in the blood, sweat and tears and earn that belt.  As I've said, there are many factors....age, skill, ability to understand the material, are just a few.





> The Gracies obviously aren't the only ones who to BJJ but they're the only ones who do, "Gracie JiuJitsu," them and others who've trained under them or who've trained under those who the Gracies have given permission to use their name. But as you said, that's beside the point. As for it taking 10 yrs to get a black belt in BJJ but not in other arts, that would depend on whose teaching it, not on the art. You have senseis who just hand out belts and then you have senseis who make their students work hard to earn the belts. I did once take classes at a BJJ school but at that particular school they used the name Gracie, they called it Gracie JiuJitsu because they had been given permission by the Gracies to do so. Anybody who the Gracies let use their name I would expect very high standards for promotion and I wouldn't be surprised for it to take a good 10 years for somebody to get a black belt there. I do not have any experience with places that taught BJJ and didn't use the Gracie name in their art so I can't say anything about how their promotions work to any degree of accuracy.
> 
> Now, you call it BS about how getting a black belt means you've reached the base. The fact of the matter is its all relative and I will state the obvious that when getting a black belt, if that means you're an expert or a serious beginner or even, for that matter, a raw beginner who was handed a black belt and is an embarrassment to ones self it depends who you got it from. As you said, you've seen lower belts with more skill than some black belts. That just goes to show how standards vary from place to place as to what a black belt is. Some places have low standards for black belt and I would not want to get a black belt at such a place.
> 
> As people have said on this thread, its not about rank its about skill and ability. I would have to say its not about rank, its about who you get the rank from and if you get a high rank from a good sensei than you will have good skill and ability, otherwise you wouldn't get it.



Tony pretty much addressed this better than I.  As far as the names....a BJJ school is only going to use the Gracie name, if they're a part of that org.  And yes, as Tony said, the time frame is usually pretty standard, although the pre-req's for promotion, ie: competing, etc, may vary.  A good friend of mine spent 10yrs travelling to Cali, as well as attending seminars in various states, in addition to hosting his own seminars with Roy Harris.  He's a quality BJJ BB, and has produced many top notch students.


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## blindsage (Jun 3, 2014)

I used to study in a system with belts and I cherish the effort taken to receive those ranks.  When I moved to another state and decided to try other styles and realized some of my skills translated, belt rank became less important to me, because it didn't necessarily reflect actual skill level or accomplishment.  Having trained in a few styles that don't use rank now, I much prefer it because the focus is on skill, not rank.  There's no forced deference, there's no questioning of skill to rank, there's less ego because of a belt.  Ranking is all well and good, but I never received a black belt in my original styles (Kyokushinkai karate, and Small Circle Jujitsu), and it doesn't bother me much, because I'm self-motivated for skill development, it's what I want all the time.  If you need a system of rankings as a crutch to motivate you, more power to you.  I don't, and work harder for it.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 5, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> In the real world, it remains true that what matters is skill, not the belt.



I think we can all agree here that we would not want to train under a sensei who just hands out belts. We want to train under senseis who make us earn the belts and that requires meeting good standards. That being said, having good skill would result in a high belt. A person with a high belt such as black belt wouldn't have the belt if they didn't have good skill, not if they got it under a sensei that we would approve of.


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## blindsage (Jun 5, 2014)

We all also know that those with high skill and no black belt are still those with high skill.  Belts are not required for skill.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 9, 2014)

blindsage said:


> We all also know that those with high skill and no black belt are still those with high skill.  Belts are not required for skill.



And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.


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## geezer (Jun 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank?  ...it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.



_Why?_ Maybe because martial arts isn't the _Boy Scouts_!

Now my best advice to you is stop worrying about the whole belt thing and ..._Mo gung kau, gung sau! _


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.



Rank is just public recognition of your skill. There's nothing wrong with wanting or appreciating public recognition of your accomplishments. There's also nothing wrong with not caring about public recognition of your accomplishments. The only problem comes when you confuse the recognition with the actual accomplishment.


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## ballen0351 (Jun 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.



Well I train Judo because I want to learn Judo.  My teacher asks me to test every class and every class I say no thank you my white belt fits fine and I have no desire to compete in comps so I don't need a high rank I just want higher skills


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## Blindside (Jun 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.



Maybe they realize that rank does not equal skill?  That most of the high rank out there is about organizational politics and administrative responsibility rather than what you can do on the floor/ring/street.  Maybe because they just want to practice/compete in the art, but they don't want to teach.  

I was an Eagle Scout, and we had a couple of guys who didn't care about the rank, they just wanted to go camping.  They didn't get any fewer outdoor and survival skills than I, they just were lower ranked.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 9, 2014)

geezer said:


> _Why?_ Maybe because martial arts isn't the _Boy Scouts_!
> 
> Now my best advice to you is stop worrying about the whole belt thing and ..._Mo gung kau, gung sau! _



Martial arts is not the same thing as Boy Scouts but they do have some stuff in common. They both use systems of rank, or at least some of the martial arts uses systems of rank as does Boy Scouts. That being said, a black belt you could say is the martial arts equivalent of Eagle Scout in Boy Scouts.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 9, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Rank is just public recognition of your skill. There's nothing wrong with wanting or appreciating public recognition of your accomplishments. There's also nothing wrong with not caring about public recognition of your accomplishments. The only problem comes when you confuse the recognition with the actual accomplishment.



Not necessarily is rank just public recognition. Some people, such as myself don't see it as such. Rather I see rank more as personal recognition of skill. I have no desire to flaunt rank or to show everybody what rank I am. Instead, by achieving a certain rank I know that I've met my sensei's standards for that rank and thus have obtained a certain degree of skill under my sensei, the same way that if I were to be an Eagle Scout, I would know that I've met the BSA's standards for the rank of Eagle Scout and in doing so have gained a certain level of skill as a Scout.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 9, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Well I train Judo because I want to learn Judo.  My teacher asks me to test every class and every class I say no thank you my white belt fits fine and I have no desire to compete in comps so I don't need a high rank I just want higher skills



You might want to consider testing for rank, aside from the reason of personal recognition in a lot of judo places you aren't taught certain stuff until you reach higher ranks. If your sensei says you're ready than you might want to progress with your training and what I mean by that is to progress with your rank and start learning some of the more advanced stuff that you're ready to learn. I've done Judo and where I did it, you learned some throws as a white belt, some of the other throws you wouldn't learn until you were a green belt or higher, and Atemi Waza, the striking techniques in Judo, you usually wouldn't start learning until you were a first degree black belt. So that is another reason to advance in rank and something you might want to consider, you're taught more when you go up in rank.


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## ballen0351 (Jun 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> You might want to consider testing for rank, aside from the reason of personal recognition in a lot of judo places you aren't taught certain stuff until you reach higher ranks. If your sensei says you're ready than you might want to progress with your training and what I mean by that is to progress with your rank and start learning some of the more advanced stuff that you're ready to learn. I've done Judo and where I did it, you learned some throws as a white belt, some of the other throws you wouldn't learn until you were a green belt or higher, and Atemi Waza, the striking techniques in Judo, you usually wouldn't start learning until you were a first degree black belt. So that is another reason to advance in rank and something you might want to consider, you're taught more when you go up in rank.


Naa Im good. I train with the advance class My Sensei understands I just dont care about the belts so he doesnt care really.  He has been asking me to test for over a year now its just a joke between us.  He teaches me based on my skills not the color a belt


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 9, 2014)

Blindside said:


> Maybe they realize that rank does not equal skill?  That most of the high rank out there is about organizational politics and administrative responsibility rather than what you can do on the floor/ring/street.  Maybe because they just want to practice/compete in the art, but they don't want to teach.
> 
> I was an Eagle Scout, and we had a couple of guys who didn't care about the rank, they just wanted to go camping.  They didn't get any fewer outdoor and survival skills than I, they just were lower ranked.



Rank does not equal skill but rank should be the result of skill. 

As for you becoming an Eagle Scout, you obviously do care about rank in some things otherwise you wouldn'tve worked hard to get to that level. And while the Boy Scouts handbook does point out quite clearly what you need to do for each rank, you nevertheless did sometimes talk to your scoutmaster about what you needed to do to get to the next rank if you were unclear. As a matter of fact, you would've had to talk to your scoutmaster to get your Eagle badge since one of the requirements is a community service project in which case you do need to talk to your scoutmaster so that he will set you up with something. 

As for your friends in Boy Scouts who didn't care about rank, did they work on merit badges? If they learned outdoor and survival skills, one of the best ways to learn such stuff in Boy Scouts is to work on appropriate merit badges, and if you learn it well enough you get the merit badge, of course, in Boy Scouts you do have to do more than earn merit badges to advance in rank.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 9, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> You might want to consider testing for rank, aside from the reason of personal recognition in a lot of judo places you aren't taught certain stuff until you reach higher ranks. If your sensei says you're ready than you might want to progress with your training and what I mean by that is to progress with your rank and start learning some of the more advanced stuff that you're ready to learn. I've done Judo and where I did it, you learned some throws as a white belt, some of the other throws you wouldn't learn until you were a green belt or higher, and Atemi Waza, the striking techniques in Judo, you usually wouldn't start learning until you were a first degree black belt. So that is another reason to advance in rank and something you might want to consider, you're taught more when you go up in rank.



If your instructor trains based on your belt, get another instructor. 
Maybe that's why you're belt focused instead of skill focused?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> The fact of the matter is that those three men with white belts had achieved the rank of 5th Dan even if they didn't openly show it by wearing the proper colored belts. What's important is obtaining the rank, not obtaining some external physical object that merely symbolizes the rank be it a belt or a badge or whatever. Those men had reached the rank of 5th Dan and knew it, that's whats important.



But according to your OP, these three masters would be 'bumps on a log'.  I disagree.  They were mature enough in their training to know they don't need to wear something to prove something.  Their training spoke for itself.


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## MJS (Jun 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.



As geezer said, why not just stop worrying about rank.  I further agree, that the arts are not the boyscouts.  And believe it or not, there are some people that just don't care about it.  They're more interested in training, learning the art, and getting good at it.  I've said it a million times, and I'll say it a million more...the belt is not an indicator of skill.  Just because someone wears a BB, doesn't mean they're worthy of that.  The same can be said for a green belt, a blue or purple.  I have my 4th degree Black in Kenpo.  However, I'm no longer active in the art, ie: training under a teacher, but I still work my techs.  I mean, after a certain time, rank advancement is simply time in grade.  Once you reach a certain rank, there are no more techs, or kata.  And who really needs more anyways?  By the time you reach the upper BB levels, you should have quite a wide array of material to work on.  Is learning 1 more tech going to make or break you? LOL!  

I asked one of my Arnis teachers one day, after a private lesson, what there was to learn after black.  I should mention that I do have my first degree black in Arnis.  His answer: Not much.  Just making what you already know, better, and expanding upon it.  And ya know what?  He's 100% correct!  I've worked out with other FMA guys, and we've taken 1 or 2 of the basic stick disarms, and just drilled the hell out of them, exploring, and finding new things.  My teacher gave me the tools to do that.  Now its up to me to take those tools and apply them.   He's not going to spoon feed me, nor do I want him too.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 10, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> If your instructor trains based on your belt, get another instructor.



At my dojo usually when you go up a belt you learn a new kata. There are cases of white belts knowing a whole bunch of more advanced kata but in some ways that ruins your progression. The idea is that when you go up a belt you learn the new kata and that is part of the glory of progression and all. A white belt that knows katas up to the brown belt level has defeated that purpose. One of our instructors  explained that. And sometimes white belts do get taught advanced techniques, but the idea is to focus on the techniques that are primarily taught at your belt level and then when you get to your next belt level to focus on the techniques you learn then, ect.



Dirty Dog said:


> Maybe that's why you're belt focused instead of skill focused?



I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.


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## ballen0351 (Jun 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> At my dojo usually when you go up a belt you learn a new kata. There are cases of white belts knowing a whole bunch of more advanced kata but in some ways that ruins your progression. The idea is that when you go up a belt you learn the new kata and that is part of the glory of progression and all. A white belt that knows katas up to the brown belt level has defeated that purpose. One of our instructors  explained that. And sometimes white belts do get taught advanced techniques, but the idea is to focus on the techniques that are primarily taught at your belt level and then when you get to your next belt level to focus on the techniques you learn then, ect.


So how did anyone ever learn anything before we had color belts?


> I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.


Not even close if you think your results are based on colored cloth that's sad


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 10, 2014)

MJS said:


> As geezer said, why not just stop worrying about rank.  I further agree, that the arts are not the boyscouts.  And believe it or not, there are some people that just don't care about it.  They're more interested in training, learning the art, and getting good at it.  I've said it a million times, and I'll say it a million more...the belt is not an indicator of skill.  Just because someone wears a BB, doesn't mean they're worthy of that.  The same can be said for a green belt, a blue or purple.  I have my 4th degree Black in Kenpo.  However, I'm no longer active in the art, ie: training under a teacher, but I still work my techs.  I mean, after a certain time, rank advancement is simply time in grade.  Once you reach a certain rank, there are no more techs, or kata.  And who really needs more anyways?  By the time you reach the upper BB levels, you should have quite a wide array of material to work on.  Is learning 1 more tech going to make or break you? LOL!
> 
> I asked one of my Arnis teachers one day, after a private lesson, what there was to learn after black.  I should mention that I do have my first degree black in Arnis.  His answer: Not much.  Just making what you already know, better, and expanding upon it.  And ya know what?  He's 100% correct!  I've worked out with other FMA guys, and we've taken 1 or 2 of the basic stick disarms, and just drilled the hell out of them, exploring, and finding new things.  My teacher gave me the tools to do that.  Now its up to me to take those tools and apply them.   He's not going to spoon feed me, nor do I want him too.



The arts are not the boyscouts but the two systems have some stuff in common. They both use ranks (some of the arts do) and I don't see why the philosophy of one can't be applied to the other or why eagle scout and black belt wouldn't be a good analogy. As for people that don't care about rank that's their choice but much of what I have to say would not apply to them. And I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more. As for belt being an indicator of skill and the result of being good at the art it depends who you get it from. There are some senseis that just hand out rank, or for that matter sell it, but I would never train under such a sensei. As for getting a high belt under a sensei that actually makes you earn it, you would not have such a belt if you haven't reached a high level of skill and knowledge in the art, not if you got it under such a sensei. So for me its not about rank, its about rank AND who I get it from. 

And yes you're right, after a certain rank there are no more tech's, kata, ect. That being said, I think it would make sense for a student to at least want to make first degree black belt. Even if you don't care much about rank it would make sense to want to get a first degree black belt and then not care much about rank progression. With a first degree black belt you've at least completed your initiation into the martial arts, and as this other poster said, it could even be equivalent to a bachelor's degree in the martial arts.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> At my dojo usually when you go up a belt you learn a new kata.



Kata are a useful training tool. They are not the be all and end all of the art. And how do you suppose anybody ever learned anything before Kano took a ranking system used in the game of GO and applied it to Judo?



PhotonGuy said:


> There are cases of white belts knowing a whole bunch of more advanced kata but in some ways that ruins your progression.



Incorrect. There are cases of people who are trying to learn skills they're not ready for, and in some ways that hinders your progression. Their belt is irrelevant to this.



PhotonGuy said:


> The idea is that when you go up a belt you learn the new kata and that is part of the glory of progression and all. A white belt that knows katas up to the brown belt level has defeated that purpose. One of our instructors  explained that. And sometimes white belts do get taught advanced techniques, but the idea is to focus on the techniques that are primarily taught at your belt level and then when you get to your next belt level to focus on the techniques you learn then, ect.



That makes sense if you're using the belt system (and basing training on belt color, rather than skill) as a fund raiser.
Personally, I teach people what they're ready to learn.



PhotonGuy said:


> I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.



Utter nonsense. Strap on a black belt with 42 gold stripes and see if that makes you any better. Now strap on a white belt and see if you're any worse. Now try no belt at all.
The results of my skills come in two primary forms.
1 - When I am forced to use them, I'm effective, and I'm not the one going "OUCH".
2 - I can see the skills of the students I work with improve.

For someone who claims to be skill focused, I don't seem to recall you making many posts on the subject of skills. Lots and lots about belt color, but not much about skills.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.



Skill is what can be demonstrated.  It could be in the form of successfully defending yourself, successfully competing in a competition or successfully demonstrating a principle of training to a student.  A belt is really an unnecessary visual tool.  A belt can be abused whereas skill speaks for itself.  Hence results come from skill and not from a belt.  

I've worn my belt perhaps two times since 2005 (give or take).  My skill didn't disappear.  And somehow I still have the ability to teach.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 10, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Utter nonsense. Strap on a black belt with 42 gold stripes and see if that makes you any better. Now strap on a white belt and see if you're any worse.


::Facepalm!:: You just don't get it. I will try to spell it out, AGAIN! Obviously putting on a certain colored belt won't make you any better or worse, BUT if you're wearing a high ranking belt at a place where you rightfully earned it NOT where you had it handed or sold to you, than you would have to have skill. You wouldn't be wearing a high belt if you didn't develop skill first, at least not if you're wearing it at the kind of dojo I just described. So by getting a high rank belt at the kind of place I described, that means that you know that you've met your sensei's standards for the rank. THAT is what I am trying to get at. What part don't you understand? This is what Im talking about when I say stuff doesn't register.


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## donald1 (Jun 10, 2014)

It sounds like you're referring to people who lack concern or motivation while that may be true for some in some aspects a belt is proof of accomplishments,  recognition for becoming a certain level of skill and or knowledge inside a martial arts style and there are some styles that don't use belts thus taking away the significance 

I like belts myself but the belt,  hopefully isn't the main reason for joining a martial arts some people join for self defense or other reasons as well 
Best of luck


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## Buka (Jun 10, 2014)

For the last five or six years this is the belt I wear when I teach.







In Japanese it means "Rank has no meaning" -kaikyuu mu imi (literally, "rank no meaning")
The other end says "Bushido is the only path" - bushido hitosuji (literally, "bushido straight line/dedicated/only/just")

Some may scoff, but I really don't give a damn. I stand for what I believe. I have a closet full of belts. A couple have all the bells and whistles - I only wear them for formal ceremonies, like a Black Belt promotion. Or if I want to make the youngsters nervous)

The belt I care about most is the white belt in the pic. Had that puppy for a dozen years now.


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## Blindside (Jun 10, 2014)

Buka said:


> The belt I care about most is the white belt in the pic. Had that puppy for a dozen years now.



Awesome, I inherited a "natural white" white belt from when my dad was in karate 50 something years ago, I wore it through regular study in four systems and I still get to bust it out occaisionally when I go visiting other schools and systems.  It sits in the "karate bag" hoping to be used again.


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## Blindside (Jun 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> ::Facepalm!:: You just don't get it. I will try to spell it out, AGAIN! Obviously putting on a certain colored belt won't make you any better or worse, BUT if you're wearing a high ranking belt at a place where you rightfully earned it NOT where you had it handed or sold to you, than you would have to have skill. You wouldn't be wearing a high belt if you didn't develop skill first, at least not if you're wearing it at the kind of dojo I just described. So by getting a high rank belt at the kind of place I described, that means that you know that you've met your sensei's standards for the rank. THAT is what I am trying to get at. What part don't you understand? This is what Im talking about when I say stuff doesn't register.



In the eight years (or whatever it was) of you being stranded at brown belt because you didn't ask about testing, did you not learn anything?  Did your skill not develop?  Did you really spend that time doing absolutely rote renditions of what you had done before with no improvement?


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> ::Facepalm!:: You just don't get it. I will try to spell it out, AGAIN! Obviously putting on a certain colored belt won't make you any better or worse, BUT if you're wearing a high ranking belt at a place where you rightfully earned it NOT where you had it handed or sold to you, than you would have to have skill. You wouldn't be wearing a high belt if you didn't develop skill first, at least not if you're wearing it at the kind of dojo I just described. So by getting a high rank belt at the kind of place I described, that means that you know that you've met your sensei's standards for the rank. THAT is what I am trying to get at. What part don't you understand? This is what Im talking about when I say stuff doesn't register.




You like to work towards a defined goal. It motivates you to work harder. And the reward makes that hard work worth it.

I don't have an issue with that.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> ::Facepalm!:: You just don't get it. I will try to spell it out, AGAIN! Obviously putting on a certain colored belt won't make you any better or worse, BUT if you're wearing a high ranking belt at a place where you rightfully earned it NOT where you had it handed or sold to you, than you would have to have skill. You wouldn't be wearing a high belt if you didn't develop skill first, at least not if you're wearing it at the kind of dojo I just described. So by getting a high rank belt at the kind of place I described, that means that you know that you've met your sensei's standards for the rank. THAT is what I am trying to get at. What part don't you understand? This is what Im talking about when I say stuff doesn't register.



And if you have the skills, that will be obvious regardless of the belt. 
You are (clearly) focused on the outward trappings of rank, while others (mostly those with more experience) don't care about the trappings.


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## Buka (Jun 10, 2014)

Blindside said:


> Awesome, I inherited a "natural white" white belt from when my dad was in karate 50 something years ago, I wore it through regular study in four systems and I still get to bust it out occaisionally when I go visiting other schools and systems.  It sits in the "karate bag" hoping to be used again.



Whoa, that's kind of epic. Gave me chicken skin.


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## Balrog (Jun 11, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One problem about the
> 
> - ranking system is when someone gets his black belt, he may think that his job is done and quit from MA training for the rest of his life.



I tell my students that making 1st Degree Black Belt is like graduating from high school.  You've learned the basics, now it's time to go to college and start learning the art.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> And if you have the skills, that will be obvious regardless of the belt.
> You are (clearly) focused on the outward trappings of rank, while others (mostly those with more experience) don't care about the trappings.




Then how do you set goals?

I can see belt ranking as one method. Comps may be another. Some people are happy not to set goal. But others need them to focus their training and believe it makes their training more effective.

So this thing about not having rank.or worrying about it is fine. I don't. But as far as the idea being morally superior. I don't really agree with.

It is like saying a mature student who goes back to school to earn his doctorate or something is somehow shallow.


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## blindsage (Jun 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.


If someone trains in a system that uses rank, and they work hard then rank comes.  If they are focused on rank they're missing the point.  If they need rank to be motivated, something else is missing.  Rank mattered to me when I was young.  When I became older and more skilled rank lost any real meaning but I didn't lose any motivation.  Also, your original post shows blatant disrespect for those who don't buy into your motivations, and implies, or rather directly states that those who aren't interested in rank are basically lesser than those who are, and that's where much of your blowback is coming from.


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## blindsage (Jun 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> At my dojo usually when you go up a belt you learn a new kata. There are cases of white belts knowing a whole bunch of more advanced kata but in some ways that ruins your progression. The idea is that when you go up a belt you learn the new kata and that is part of the glory of progression and all. A white belt that knows katas up to the brown belt level has defeated that purpose. One of our instructors  explained that. And sometimes white belts do get taught advanced techniques, but the idea is to focus on the techniques that are primarily taught at your belt level and then when you get to your next belt level to focus on the techniques you learn then, ect.


 This is an arbitrary fact of the school you train at.  At my school there are beginners and there is everybody else.  Those who are more advanced train on more advanced elements and help those who are less advanced.  And there is a lot of high level skill that comes out of our school.   





> I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.


 Skill is it's own reward.  A belt is a belt.


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## blindsage (Jun 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Then how do you set goals?
> 
> I can see belt ranking as one method. Comps may be another. Some people are happy not to set goal. But others need them to focus their training and believe it makes their training more effective.
> 
> ...


I think the problem here is the opposite though.  The OP set up the conversation by basically stating that those who pursue rank are superior.  Dirty Dog is responding in that context.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Then how do you set goals?
> 
> I can see belt ranking as one method. Comps may be another. Some people are happy not to set goal. But others need them to focus their training and believe it makes their training more effective.
> 
> ...



I set lots of goals. Belt color, or the number if Stars and Stripes on that belt, doesn't affect my goals. 
The OP basically stated that unless you are pursuing a BELT, you are just "a bump on a log". That's utter nonsense. 
I pursue skill and knowledge. I've done so for as long as I can remember (although as a child I did think rank mattered). And I will do so for as long as I am able. 
If someone wants to give me another fancy belt for doing that, then fine. If not, that's also fine. What's wrapped around my waist doesn't have any impact on my skills, nor my goals. 
Like most people, I have lots of pieces of paper. Quite a few are framed. Do you know which two mean the most to me?
A certificate signed and sealed by the head of the WTF, and another by our Kwanjang. Neither is a rank. They are both thank you cards for dedication and service to the Art. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## ballen0351 (Jun 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Then how do you set goals?
> I can see belt ranking as one method. Comps may be another. Some people are happy not to set goal. But others need them to focus their training and believe it makes their training more effective.



my goal is to learn and get proficient.  I set goal like I want to get good at these 5 throws then when I reach it I say ok now these next 5. Or I want to learn this Kata or that one. It has nothing to do with a belt


> So this thing about not having rank.or worrying about it is fine. I don't. But as far as the idea being morally superior. I don't really agree with.


I agree I dont look down upon people that strive for rank just know belt color does not equal skill or ability


> It is like saying a mature student who goes back to school to earn his doctorate or something is somehow shallow.


Id depends on the reasons for going back.  If its just to brag about a new degree then yes its shallow if its because they want to learn, or need to learn, or they are just bored and looking for something to do then no


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 12, 2014)

blindsage said:


> I think the problem here is the opposite though.  The OP set up the conversation by basically stating that those who pursue rank are superior.  Dirty Dog is responding in that context.



The OP even went beyond that, basically being derogatory towards those that don't care for showing off their rank with a piece of cloth.  Perhaps not his best avenue of promoting discussion.




			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> Then how do you set goals?
> 
> I can see belt ranking as one method. Comps may be another. Some people  are happy not to set goal. But others need them to focus their training  and believe it makes their training more effective.



Then this is a _placebo effect_ situation.  Dan ranking within karate has been around 90 years (started in 1924).  Many systems didn't adopt it until the 1950's.  So it really hasn't been around very long.  It was added to karate as part of an agreement between Funakoshi and the Japanese government (along with an organized system outline and standardized uniform and a few other things).  It wasn't added because it was needed.  Thus these venues of arts had no rank beyond Sensei/student for far longer than they've had belts.  And they seemed to do just fine without it.  If you were serious you trained.  If you weren't serious you didn't train.  Pretty simple.  To be blunt, if you need a piece of colored cloth on the waist to motivate you then you've missed the whole point of the martial arts (generic you and not you personally).  

I ran a school for years that had students not just from within my county but the three surrounding counties.  Some drove 50 miles to attend training.  I don't say that to brag, simply to make a point.  We wore belts less than 20% of the time.  And a new person joining didn't seem to have any difficulty knowing who was a newbie like themselves and who were senior students and who the instructors were.  I don't recall anyone ever asking me what my rank was, yet they listened to me as the sensei because my actions and teaching ability spoke for themselves.   



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> So this thing about not having rank.or worrying about it is fine. I  don't. But as far as the idea being morally superior. I don't really  agree with.



We had a conversation a couple of years ago, either in the Hapkido or Taekwondo section (don't remember which).  The OP starter question was, '*would you train in a school that didn't have belts*'?  With a caveat that the school provided excellent training, they just didn't wear their belts.  Most folks said yes, they'd have no issue with training at a school like this.  A couple of notable exceptions were these two posters that stated categorically NO, they would never train at a school if they couldn't wear their belt.  That spoke volumes imo as to their view of the arts.  

_*If photonguy's school suddenly came out with a no belt policy....I wonder if he'd still train there?*_


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> The OP even went beyond that, basically being derogatory towards those that don't care for showing off their rank with a piece of cloth.  Perhaps not his best avenue of promoting discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ritual is important to some people. Belts are a part of that. So does willingness to participate change for people if we remove all ritual from the art?

So if we remove the traditional aspects from x martial arts.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Ritual is important to some people.



Very true.



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> Belts are a part of that.



They can be considered as such, but as such, they really aren't part of the martial arts.  It is an esoteric add-on that isn't necessary for serious training.



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> So does willingness to participate change for people if we remove all ritual from the art?



Unfortunately, yes, if you remove some of the esoteric trappings _associated_ with the arts then some people will stop training.  And this speaks to the seriousness of their training pretty clearly.  


			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> So if we remove the traditional aspects from x martial arts.



This is a fragmented sentence that doesn't make any sense.  Perhaps you can clarify what you mean.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 13, 2014)

donald1 said:


> It sounds like you're referring to people who lack concern or motivation while that may be true for some in some aspects a belt is proof of accomplishments,  recognition for becoming a certain level of skill and or knowledge inside a martial arts style and there are some styles that don't use belts thus taking away the significance
> 
> I like belts myself but the belt,  hopefully isn't the main reason for joining a martial arts some people join for self defense or other reasons as well
> Best of luck



A belt can be proof of accomplishments depending on the sensei you get it under. People take up the martial arts for all sorts of reasons and belts aren't the only reason I train in the martial arts but if I get a certain belt under a certain sensei than I know I've met that sensei's standards for the belt. So its not about the belt, its about the belt AND who I get it under.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 13, 2014)

Blindside said:


> In the eight years (or whatever it was) of you being stranded at brown belt because you didn't ask about testing, did you not learn anything?  Did your skill not develop?  Did you really spend that time doing absolutely rote renditions of what you had done before with no improvement?



Actually it was closer to ten years that I was at high level brown belt. Yes I did learn stuff during that time and I developed skill but the important thing was to make it to first degree black belt so I could take my training to the next level. As somebody said in this thread that getting a black belt is like getting a high school diploma and somebody else said its like getting a bachelor's degree in college. I would have to agree, it means you learned the basics and now you're ready to learn the art, that's what I mean by taking it to the next level. I've got a bachelor's degree in psychology. That means I've learned the basics of psychology. If I were to go for a master's degree in psychology it would be more focused and I would start to really push forward in learning about psychology. The same thing with getting a black belt, now you're ready to really push forward. And if anything, once you make black belt, you expect more out of yourself.


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## Blindside (Jun 13, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Actually it was closer to ten years that I was at high level brown belt. Yes I did learn stuff during that time and I developed skill but the important thing was to make it to first degree black belt so I could take my training to the next level.



Argh.  There is nothing magical about getting a black belt.  It is an arbitrary division in the curriculum that says you are X good to your instructor.  It doesn't jump start your training, the "next level" is just a continuum.   The academic comparison to martial arts is flawed, I can't study and practice high school physics and get to understand relativity and string theory on my own.  However, in almost every martial art that I have seen, the important bits of the art should be taught in the underbelt material (lets say the first three years of study.)  Then you have to practice the heck out of it.


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## drop bear (Jun 14, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Very true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK in its basic terms everything that is not just learning to be the most effective kill monster is an esosteric add on and not necessary for effective training.

Except people respond to the ritural. So leaving it in there is probably important. And even though belts may be a newer ritural does not diminish the importance of them.

So treating the ritural as important and that includes the belts is not necessarily a bad thing.

Personally I think you have to place importance on your training. And ritural helps that. Grading is one of those rituals. So I have no issue with people who place importance on their belts.

As a side note we have kyokashin guy who trains with us and goes to Japan to grade.  It is not necessary for his skills that he gets the belt. But as he trains for that belt his skills do go up.

We are also all doing judo now. If I am going to do it. Damn straight I want to grade in it.


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## Buka (Jun 14, 2014)

I probably should have mentioned this before - belts were important to me when I was coming up through the ranks. Nothing quite like that feeling of getting gi'd up and putting on your belt - which was now a different color than you were ever used to. And you know you just have to walk by that mirror to grab a peek or two.

And belts are still important to me for all the students coming up through the ranks. When some of my students test their students, I often get asked to either help test, or asked an opinion on some, or invited to the promotion to sit in on the board. I take it all very seriously. And I always will. I just don't give a damn about them when it comes to myself. Because I'm old.

Except, well you know, fashion wise. Black goes with _everything_.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK in its basic terms everything that is not just learning to be the most effective kill monster is an esosteric add on and not necessary for effective training.



Although I don't agree with the term _'kill monster'_, I agree with the premise of your statement.  There are only two elements necessary;  a qualified instructor and a serious student.  Anything beyond that is fluff.  Folks can put whatever level of importance they'd like on the fluff, but it remains fluff.  That includes belts, uniforms, patches, organizations and what not.  When I taught class last Thursday I was in jean shorts and a T-shirt.  I occasionally wear karate pants and a T-shirt but since we train outside and it's getting hot the shorts work pretty well.  



> Except people respond to the ritural. So leaving it in there is probably important. And even though belts may be a newer ritural does not diminish the importance of them.



It is only important if they were exposed to it as being important.  It is what they are used to in training.  But that doesn't actually make it important, it really only means that it is what they are familiar with.  It isn't a secret or anything that folks trained for longer without belts than with them.  Thus they aren't needed.  They may be _wanted_, but not needed.  



> So treating the ritural as important and that includes the belts is not necessarily a bad thing.



I'm going to disagree.  This thread is an example of why I disagree.  Many, like the OP put too much emphasis on a belt and what the belt supposedly means.  Having a black belt in this day and age is pretty meaningless outside of one's small circle.  Standards vary so widely as to be laughable, even within the same organization and sometimes within the same school.  



> Personally I think you have to place importance on your training. And ritural helps that. Grading is one of those rituals. So I have no issue with people who place importance on their belts.



I agree that you need to place importance on your training.  However, if you need a 'ritual' (or just call it a placebo or crutch) then maybe the training isn't really as important as it should be?  I'd like to see Photonguy answer my question;  if his school stopped using belts tomorrow, would he continue to train there?  Reasonable question.



> We are also all doing judo now. If I am going to do it. Damn straight I want to grade in it.



Why?  If it is because you're intending to compete in Judo then I can see it.  If not, why?


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 14, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Why?  If it is because you're intending to compete in Judo then I can see it.  If not, why?



I'd just like to say that the thing you're interested in today may or may not be the thing you're interested in tomorrow.

Who knows what you may want to do in the future? Maybe you decide you want to teach, but you're still wearing a white belt. 

Of course, ability is the most important, but if you've done the work, put in the time, and the rank is available to you, I would recommend getting it. You never know when it might come in handy in the future.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## blindsage (Jun 15, 2014)

Jaeimseu said:


> I'd just like to say that the thing you're interested in today may or may not be the thing you're interested in tomorrow.
> 
> Who knows what you may want to do in the future? Maybe you decide you want to teach, but you're still wearing a white belt.
> 
> ...


Haven't earned a single belt in my current style, but am certified to teach.


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Although I don't agree with the term _'kill monster'_, I agree with the premise of your statement.  There are only two elements necessary;  a qualified instructor and a serious student.  Anything beyond that is fluff.  Folks can put whatever level of importance they'd like on the fluff, but it remains fluff.  That includes belts, uniforms, patches, organizations and what not.  When I taught class last Thursday I was in jean shorts and a T-shirt.  I occasionally wear karate pants and a T-shirt but since we train outside and it's getting hot the shorts work pretty well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For the last bit. When I learn a style I want to learn it in its entirety. Sort of. Not as such that I have to become a black belt but in that say capoeira. I will learn the songs. muay Thai I will learn the wai khru ram muay. Judo I will go for the belts.

It is a mma thing.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 15, 2014)

blindsage said:


> Haven't earned a single belt in my current style, but am certified to teach.



But not all styles will certify without ranking.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## MJS (Jun 15, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> The arts are not the boyscouts but the two systems have some stuff in common. They both use ranks (some of the arts do) and I don't see why the philosophy of one can't be applied to the other or why eagle scout and black belt wouldn't be a good analogy. As for people that don't care about rank that's their choice but much of what I have to say would not apply to them. And I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more. As for belt being an indicator of skill and the result of being good at the art it depends who you get it from. There are some senseis that just hand out rank, or for that matter sell it, but I would never train under such a sensei. As for getting a high belt under a sensei that actually makes you earn it, you would not have such a belt if you haven't reached a high level of skill and knowledge in the art, not if you got it under such a sensei. So for me its not about rank, its about rank AND who I get it from.
> 
> And yes you're right, after a certain rank there are no more tech's, kata, ect. That being said, I think it would make sense for a student to at least want to make first degree black belt. Even if you don't care much about rank it would make sense to want to get a first degree black belt and then not care much about rank progression. With a first degree black belt you've at least completed your initiation into the martial arts, and as this other poster said, it could even be equivalent to a bachelor's degree in the martial arts.



You're seriously comparing to boy scouts to the Martial Arts?  And saying that the philosophy can't be the same?  To be honest, I'm not even sure where this thread is headed at this point. LOL. I've said my piece.  I'm really not sure I can add much more to what I've already said.


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## blindsage (Jun 15, 2014)

Jaeimseu said:


> But not all styles will certify without ranking.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


Absolutely, and there's nothing wrong with that if that's what they do.  Again, the OP is implying that without rank people are lazy and wasting their time, and that rank matters as much as skill itself.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 16, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> And if you have the skills, that will be obvious regardless of the belt.


If I get a certain belt under a certain sensei, that means I've met that sensei's definition of what it means to be skilled enough for that belt rank.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> If I get a certain belt under a certain sensei, that means I've met that sensei's definition of what it means to be skilled enough for that belt rank.



You can have a belt without skill. You can have skill without a belt. I'll continue to focus on skills. You, of course, are free to remain focused on belt color.

If you like, I'll send you a black belt. With stripes on it, even. How many would you like?


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can have a belt without skill. You can have skill without a belt. I'll continue to focus on skills. You, of course, are free to remain focused on belt color.
> 
> If you like, I'll send you a black belt. With stripes on it, even. How many would you like?



Some belts are only given out to people with skill. Those belts are quite often worth something to the people who receive them. A belt from a quality instructor is different to a belt that is bought on eBay.


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## blindsage (Jun 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Some belts are only given out to people with skill. Those belts are quite often worth something to the people who receive them. A belt from a quality instructor is different to a belt that is bought on eBay.


The brown belt I received (the highest belt I've ever gotten) from my Kyokushin instructors I value highly.  I earned it, they made me work hard for it.  But doesn't it apply the other way.  The skills that people get when there is no belt involved are quite valuable to those who obtain them?  At least equal to those who do the same with a belt, sometimes moreso?


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Some belts are only given out to people with skill. Those belts are quite often worth something to the people who receive them. A belt from a quality instructor is different to a belt that is bought on eBay.



But as has been pointed out _ad nauseam_, the belt itself has no value (OK, it's worth a few bucks for the material and workmanship...). It's the skills that matter. I'd rather have compliments from my seniors and/or see the progression of those I train than another belt (or stripe, or whatever). 
What I gain from my training, and what I try to give students, is completely separate from any belt.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2014)

blindsage said:


> The brown belt I received (the highest belt I've ever gotten) from my Kyokushin instructors I value highly.  I earned it, they made me work hard for it.  But doesn't it apply the other way.  The skills that people get when there is no belt involved are quite valuable to those who obtain them?  At least equal to those who do the same with a belt, sometimes moreso?



I agree with that as well.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> But as has been pointed out _ad nauseam_, the belt itself has no value (OK, it's worth a few bucks for the material and workmanship...). It's the skills that matter. I'd rather have compliments from my seniors and/or see the progression of those I train than another belt (or stripe, or whatever).
> What I gain from my training, and what I try to give students, is completely separate from any belt.



A belt from a quality instructor is payed for in skill. And time and hard work and so on.

And is worth more than the cost of the material.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 18, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> If I get a certain belt under a certain sensei, that means I've met that sensei's definition of what it means to be skilled enough for that belt rank.



You still haven't answered my question:  If tomorrow your school ditched belts altogether i.e. your instructor woke up and said, 'forget the belts.  You're a student till your an instructor like in the ole days'...would you continue to train there?


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## MJS (Jun 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> If I get a certain belt under a certain sensei, that means I've met that sensei's definition of what it means to be skilled enough for that belt rank.



Of course, this is all depending on whether or not the person awarding the belt, is sincere or just more concerned with getting your money.  As Dirty Dog said, you don't need a belt, to indicate skill level.


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## MJS (Jun 20, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> You still haven't answered my question:  If tomorrow your school ditched belts altogether i.e. your instructor woke up and said, 'forget the belts.  You're a student till your an instructor like in the ole days'...would you continue to train there?



I know you're not directing this at me, but I'd like to answer.  I'll say this: if ANY of the people I train with, said that, yes, I would absolutely continue to train with them!


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 20, 2014)

As I have said before if one night all the student where told not to wear their belts and could line up anywhere they wanted in class, a observer should be able to tell who has the knowledge and who dose not. The belt dose not hold the knowledge.


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2014)

MJS said:


> I know you're not directing this at me, but I'd like to answer.  I'll say this: if ANY of the people I train with, said that, yes, I would absolutely continue to train with them!




That would be tough on a guy that just took ten years to get a black belt.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Jun 20, 2014)

I don't really want to get involved in this argument but after wasting over an hour reading the whole thread I feel obliged to have an input, so here goes:



PhotonGuy said:


> Actually it was closer to ten years that I was at high level brown belt. Yes I did learn stuff during that time and I developed skill but the important thing was to make it to first degree black belt so I could take my training to the next level. As somebody said in this thread that getting a black belt is like getting a high school diploma and somebody else said its like getting a bachelor's degree in college. I would have to agree, it means you learned the basics and now you're ready to learn the art, that's what I mean by taking it to the next level. I've got a bachelor's degree in psychology. That means I've learned the basics of psychology. If I were to go for a master's degree in psychology it would be more focused and I would start to really push forward in learning about psychology. The same thing with getting a black belt, now you're ready to really push forward. And if anything, once you make black belt, you expect more out of yourself.



In your OP and subsequent responses you seem to have missed something that someone with a degree in psychology should know: different people think differently.

E.G.








 Originally Posted by *PhotonGuy* 


_And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank?_

If you were training in medicine rather than MA and had all the necessary skills and knowledge in order to practice and call yourself Dr, would that be enough or would you still need a piece of paper saying your a doctor to hang on the wall for your own personal satisfaction?



> I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more



Please don't 

Good luck in your quest

P.S. Apologies for the crappy quoting technique


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 20, 2014)

MJS said:


> I know you're not directing this at me, but I'd like to answer.  I'll say this: if ANY of the people I train with, said that, yes, I would absolutely continue to train with them!



Me too


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 20, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> As I have said before if one night all the student where told not to wear their belts and could line up anywhere they wanted in class, a observer should be able to tell who has the knowledge and who dose not. The belt dose not hold the knowledge.



Bingo!  And if not, there is a real issue.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 20, 2014)

drop bear said:


> That would be tough on a guy that just took ten years to get a black belt.



Did he take 10 years to get a belt or 10 years to develop a skill set, base of knowledge and experience.  If the former I can see how he'd be upset, if the later then the color of a piece of cloth is pretty much a moot point.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 20, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> You still haven't answered my question:  If tomorrow your school ditched belts altogether i.e. your instructor woke up and said, 'forget the belts.  You're a student till your an instructor like in the ole days'...would you continue to train there?



I think the silence has answered my question.


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Did he take 10 years to get a belt or 10 years to develop a skill set, base of knowledge and experience.  If the former I can see how he'd be upset, if the later then the color of a piece of cloth is pretty much a moot point.



In theory you need the skill set to get the belt. 

What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> In theory you need the skill set to get the belt.
> 
> What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.



Do you know of anybody who enlists specifically to pursue medals?
If so, I'd say they shouldn't be allowed near a weapon. 

To quote the Wise and Great Philosopher Mr Miyagi... "This say you brave. (hand on heart) This say you lucky. (Pointing at medals)"



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.



The way I understand it is that medals are awarded in recognition of bravery, not skills.


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## Buka (Jun 21, 2014)

One of the things I used to do, three or four times a year, was when the students lined up for class, I'd have everybody take off their belts, throw them into a pile and put on somebody else's. Blacks wearing yellows, whites wearing blacks etc. The students got a kick out of it, especially the (under belts). And I'd wear a white belt teaching class. After five minutes, nobody really cared. I didn't mention anything about a "belt doesn't matter" but I'm sure the students got the point. And it was always fun.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> In theory you need the skill set to get the belt.



Unfortunately, that's only in theory.  A belt can be 'earned' these days after a single weekend and a cleared check.  And it carries all the legitimacy in some organizations as the one earned over years of training.  That's why belts really don't matter.  Anyone can wear a belt.  Anyone can be 'legitimate' within a school or organization for the right price.  Quite another to be able to step out on the mat with a level of skill.  That's why skill/experience/wealth of knowledge will always trump the color of a belt.



> What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.



Have you ever been in the military?  I have?  Have you ever earned a metal?  I have.  If so, then you'll realize that most of them just feel lucky/blessed enough just to have come home, often want the medal to go to their buddies that didn't come home and absolutely don't wear it so others can recognize them in it.  

Piss poor comparison.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> You still haven't answered my question:  If tomorrow your school ditched belts altogether i.e. your instructor woke up and said, 'forget the belts.  You're a student till your an instructor like in the ole days'...would you continue to train there?



How I would react to that would depend. Lets say that at such a school I've already achieved first degree black belt. In that case I would still train there and my goal would be to just get better, but without my progress being clearly defined in any way such as with belts. If I had not yet reached black belt than my goal would be to become an instructor since that is a clearly defined goal and then after I achieved that, my goal would be the same as it is after making black belt, to get better but for it to be abstract rather than clearly defined. As it is, black belt is often equivalent to being an assistant instructor. In my dojo once you do make black belt you are sometimes expected to teach as an assistant instructor.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can have a belt without skill.



Not if I get it under a sensei who makes me earn it.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2014)

MJS said:


> Of course, this is all depending on whether or not the person awarding the belt, is sincere or just more concerned with getting your money.



And that is why I would not train under somebody who would just hand out belts because they want my money.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2014)

Hong Kong Pooey said:


> If you were training in medicine rather than MA and had all the necessary skills and knowledge in order to practice and call yourself Dr, would that be enough or would you still need a piece of paper saying your a doctor to hang on the wall for your own personal satisfaction?



By law, I would be required to have the piece of paper in order to work in such a profession. Working as a doctor requires a medical license and to get a medical license requires an M.D. Also, by hanging the piece of paper on my wall I would be advertising my services. The same way that when you go to apply for a job you put out a resume, for a doctor to have his M.D. certificate on his office wall that serves as a resume, it attracts potential patients.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Did he take 10 years to get a belt or 10 years to develop a skill set, base of knowledge and experience.  If the former I can see how he'd be upset, if the later then the color of a piece of cloth is pretty much a moot point.



It was the former.


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## Reedone816 (Jun 29, 2014)

From the school that has no belt system, I am very comfortable with it as long as I got the
 skill.
What we do is through skill goal.
Once you understand and show it that you really understand the application and the concept of a technique, the master will give you more advanced technique to learn.
So similar to belt system but no belt. And since it is individual oriented the advanced of a student is based by the student oneself.
Some just in several month able to advance, most other took years.
And many stop learning once they achieve certain level even though they still training and teaching.
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> The way I understand it is that medals are awarded in recognition of bravery, not skills.



They are just as brave without them.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Unfortunately, that's only in theory.  A belt can be 'earned' these days after a single weekend and a cleared check.  And it carries all the legitimacy in some organizations as the one earned over years of training.  That's why belts really don't matter.  Anyone can wear a belt.  Anyone can be 'legitimate' within a school or organization for the right price.  Quite another to be able to step out on the mat with a level of skill.  That's why skill/experience/wealth of knowledge will always trump the color of a belt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well the weekend check theory only is applicable if the belts don't matter. If they do matter they will be handed out to those who deserve them. Looking at a school that does belts I would have a higher estimation of the school that does not compromise its belt system.

No I don't have medals. It was mearly one circumstance where I would not suggest that they do not matter to the recipients. And I don't think I will mention that at the next Anzac day I go to regardless because they do seem to get a bit sensitive about that sort of stuff.


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## donald1 (Jun 29, 2014)

That's good if you want to become a black belt,  or a 2nd degree black belt or a instructor but certainly once you cleared your goal what's next?  It's good to want to be higher but skill comes first.  I too would appreciate the Dan ranking.  I'm curious is it the belt your after or knowing your skilled because of the belt


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2014)

donald1 said:


> That's good if you want to become a black belt,  or a 2nd degree black belt or a instructor but certainly once you cleared your goal what's next?  It's good to want to be higher but skill comes first.  I too would appreciate the Dan ranking.  I'm curious is it the belt your after or knowing your skilled because of the belt



Why would it be mutually exclusive?

A belt system is not the worst way to attain skills.


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## ballen0351 (Jun 29, 2014)

Medals and ribbons are kinda an interesting comparison.   We get ribbons and medals at work from time to time.  Some of us don't wear them at all.  Others look like a 20 star general walking around.  I personally don't wear mine because it's one more thing I need to put on my uniform and don't feel like it.  They are about as meaningful as my belt color which I hold in the same regard as my underwear color.  I train because I like it.  I do my job because I like it.  Trinkets don't mean much to me.  But I do see others that are very concerned with ribbons.   I guess in that way Martial arts is the same way some are very concerned with belts to the point they blame not getting one for destroying there life's plans and dreams even 10+ years later and other just don't care.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Medals and ribbons are kinda an interesting comparison.   We get ribbons and medals at work from time to time.  Some of us don't wear them at all.  Others look like a 20 star general walking around.  I personally don't wear mine because it's one more thing I need to put on my uniform and don't feel like it.  They are about as meaningful as my belt color which I hold in the same regard as my underwear color.  I train because I like it.  I do my job because I like it.  Trinkets don't mean much to me.  But I do see others that are very concerned with ribbons.   I guess in that way Martial arts is the same way some are very concerned with belts to the point they blame not getting one for destroying there life's plans and dreams even 10+ years later and other just don't care.




But apart from personal choice. And I think I mentioned that is fine. Is one more moral. Yodaish or adult a position to take?


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## ballen0351 (Jun 29, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But apart from personal choice. And I think I mentioned that is fine. Is one more moral. Yodaish or adult a position to take?



Moral?  I'm not sure I understand what you mean.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Moral?  I'm not sure I understand what you mean.



Well back about a hundred threads that seems to be the issue. Belts are not important to me because we don't do them. We skill test in other ways. 

But it is important to the people who grade.

The argument was that people who place importance on gradings are somehow more shallow because they are concerned with the ritural and image not training in the purest form of martial arts which is technique.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 30, 2014)

If they where interested in the history tthere would be teacher and student or teacher disciple and student.
The rituals are a way to make the student feel or let him know that he has accomplished something the teacher feels is important


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 30, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Well back about a hundred threads that seems to be the issue. Belts are not important to me because we don't do them. We skill test in other ways.
> 
> But it is important to the people who grade.
> 
> The argument was that people who place importance on gradings are somehow more shallow because they are concerned with the ritural and image not training in the purest form of martial arts which is technique.



You have it backwards. And this has been pointed out to you before. 
The argument was that people who don't care about belt color are "bumps on a log". 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## donald1 (Jun 30, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Why would it be mutually exclusive?
> 
> A belt system is not the worst way to attain skills.



Apologies if choose wrong words, but that's not what I meant. Just that it's good to enjoy belts but not the most important part (i think it's somewhat important but not the most)


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 30, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Well the weekend check theory only is applicable if the belts don't matter. If they do matter they will be handed out to those who deserve them. Looking at a school that does belts I would have a higher estimation of the school that does not compromise its belt system.



Here's the thing you and photonguy need to consider;  In my example about the weekend and a cleared check...I wasn't kidding.  The school was a KKW TKD school, run by an 8th Dan in the KKW.  All legite, at least on paper.  The Hapkido training was from a Korean GM from Korea, representing a known world Hapkido Federation.  Again, all legite, at least on paper.  So as far as legitimacy i.e. being at a known school run by a high ranking GM in a legitimate organization inviting another high ranking GM to teach/test from another legitimate organization...all the T's were crossed and all the I's were dotted.  They were just as legitimate as photonguy's 'really good instructor' and the black belt he offers.  

So bottom line is this;  legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder and in the world of martial arts, as far as 'who trained who' and 'what is the color of your belt' and 'where does your cert come from'....it all doesn't mean squat.  Let me repeat this so as to avoid any confusion on the matter...your belt color doesn't mean jack schnitt.

What you can do on the mat or in the street is the ONLY thing that matters.  Belts are a children's toy for grown ups.  And they mean about as much.

But then I'm just a bump on the log :boing1:


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## drop bear (Jun 30, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> You have it backwards. And this has been pointed out to you before.
> The argument was that people who don't care about belt color are "bumps on a log".
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



And the counter argument was that it is personal choice? Or that not aiming for grades was somehow more moral?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Here's the thing you and photonguy need to consider;  In my example about the weekend and a cleared check...I wasn't kidding.  The school was a KKW TKD school, run by an 8th Dan in the KKW.  All legite, at least on paper.  The Hapkido training was from a Korean GM from Korea, representing a known world Hapkido Federation.  Again, all legite, at least on paper.  So as far as legitimacy i.e. being at a known school run by a high ranking GM in a legitimate organization inviting another high ranking GM to teach/test from another legitimate organization...all the T's were crossed and all the I's were dotted.  They were just as legitimate as photonguy's 'really good instructor' and the black belt he offers.
> 
> So bottom line is this;  legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder and in the world of martial arts, as far as 'who trained who' and 'what is the color of your belt' and 'where does your cert come from'....it all doesn't mean squat.  Let me repeat this so as to avoid any confusion on the matter...your belt color doesn't mean jack schnitt.
> 
> ...



What about the systems that neither spar or street fight?

And you can't really judge one systems ranking by another. That is silly.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 30, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And the counter argument was that it is personal choice? Or that not aiming for grades was somehow more moral?



To the best of my recollection, there is only one person saying anything whatsoever about morality in this thread. That would be... you...

The actual comments made (as opposed to the imaginary ones) have said only that what matters is SKILL, not the color of the fabric wrapped around your waist.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> To the best of my recollection, there is only one person saying anything whatsoever about morality in this thread. That would be... you...
> 
> The actual comments made (as opposed to the imaginary ones) have said only that what matters is SKILL, not the color of the fabric wrapped around your waist.



So then regardless of your motivation. In that a comment has made you upset that is still you stance in this. And to a certain extent I disagree. And feel that achieving belts can be important in martial arts as a recognition of skill or even as service in some cases.

That achieving belt status can be important to people an for a few reasons there is nothing wrong with that.

People who work hard should be appreciated.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> People who work hard should be appreciated.


You dont need a belt to show your work is appreciated.  Or was nobody appreciated prior to the belt system?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So then regardless of your motivation. In that a comment has made you upset that is still you stance in this. And to a certain extent I disagree.



I have no idea what you're saying.



drop bear said:


> And feel that achieving belts can be important in martial arts as a recognition of skill or even as service in some cases.
> 
> That achieving belt status can be important to people an for a few reasons there is nothing wrong with that.



I don't recall anybody saying that there is anything wrong with belts. Strawman much?

What's wrong is when people are focused on the belt, rather than the skill.

It's really not that difficult a concept.



drop bear said:


> People who work hard should be appreciated.



Belts are a modern concept. Do you imagine skill wasn't appreciated before the belts were adopted?


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> In theory you need the skill set to get the belt.
> 
> What if the military just got rid of war medals? The soldiers are just as skilled and a medal is just a piece of tin.



That is not the best analogy. A better analogy would be if the military got rid of rank. That would be the equivalent of a martial arts school getting rid of belts.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> That is not the best analogy. A better analogy would be if the military got rid of rank. That would be the equivalent of a martial arts school getting rid of belts.



Ehh - not so much. The military is a hierarchical system, with ranks being part of what determines who gets to give orders to whom. There are martial arts schools out there which try to emulate that sort of hierarchy, but I would never attend one.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 2, 2014)

donald1 said:


> That's good if you want to become a black belt,  or a 2nd degree black belt or a instructor but certainly once you cleared your goal what's next?  It's good to want to be higher but skill comes first.  I too would appreciate the Dan ranking.  I'm curious is it the belt your after or knowing your skilled because of the belt



What comes next? After I've reached my goal of reaching a certain rank or becoming an instructor ect. the next thing for me would be to just get better in general. At that point I just want to keep improving but my goal at this point would be more abstract, not clearly defined by rank.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have no idea what you're saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why is it wrong to be focused on the belt?

And how is it a choice between belt and skill. In theory it takes skill to achieve the belt. 

I know in some cases it really doesn't. But I am talking about the ones that do.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Why is it wrong to be focused on the belt?
> 
> And how is it a choice between belt and skill. In theory it takes skill to achieve the belt.
> 
> I know in some cases it really doesn't. But I am talking about the ones that do.



Why is it wrong not to worry about the belt?  Focus on the Skill and the belts will come.  As you said in some cases belts dont = Skill


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Why is it wrong not to worry about the belt?  Focus on the Skill and the belts will come.  As you said in some cases belts dont = Skill




It is not. It is a personal choice. Both are as valid a reason as the other.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 2, 2014)

Just for the record, and not wanting to derail, but in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts there are no belt ranks.


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## ballen0351 (Jul 2, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just for the record, and not wanting to derail, but in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts there are no belt ranks.



Impossible How do you know how skillful you are or what class you belong in or how good you are?


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 2, 2014)

You just do, you just train and the more you learn and the more you understand the better you get. Like other MA styles the judge is the teacher, applications and in some cases sparing.

Have not seen a belt rank in all but 1 CMA school (and that one dropped the idea later) I have trained at, and there has been a few, and I have run into some Damn good fighters. Also no belt ranks at the JKD school I trained at briefly either and those guys were incredibly serious.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> You just do, you just train and the more you learn and the more you understand the better you get. Like other MA styles the judge is the teacher, applications and in some cases sparing.
> 
> Have not seen a belt rank in all but 1 CMA school (and that one dropped the idea later) I have trained at, and there has been a few, and I have run into some Damn good fighters. Also no belt ranks at the JKD school I trained at briefly either and those guys were incredibly serious.




Serious as in how many days a week?

Moving into the concept of goal setting. Guys at my gym who fight are six days a week serious. Got a mate who grades is the same. Massive amounts of training. And they tend to get real gains because of it because the belt or the fight is important.

Everybody else has to lift their game because we as a team have to prep the guy. To be honest it gets really uncomfortable. But that is what is necessary to get the job done

Is there any equivalent in the cma or jkd?


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 3, 2014)

last time i checked Eric Clapton didnt have a rank in guitar playing.  either did stevie ray vaughan, les paul or chet atkins.  do you think they need one?  does anyone who is a true artist like that feel they need a ranking?  but, but , but ....what about goal setting and being acknowledged for the skill they have?  im not against belts and ranking but they are the frosting on the cake, you usually buy the frosting..just like a belt...and if the cake sucks the cake sucks and the frosting aint gonna help.  when your new to martial arts a belt can make you feel good, but guess what, thats all it is , a feel good reward. just like little johnny who gets a trophy for participation.  ranking can be important within an organization, but then we get into politics. once you have been around the block a few times you start to see the political motivations for higher ranks.  rank or belts will never and can never be an indicator on how well you will fair in the real world if you need to defend yourself.  anyone who thinks different is fooling themselves and have been fooled by their instructor into beliveing it.  BELTS AND RANKS ARE NOT REAL!!!!    if you want to test this out, quit your dojo and go join another from another style and see if the instructor will allow you to maintain your currant rank and status.  then try going down to the wrong side of town and go into a bar and proclaim your rank and title to the patrons and tell them what a bad *** you are in the dojo. i am sure you will find out real fast how good those long belts are for lowering your casket into the ground.
but i digress..belts are super i think everyone should have one..


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## Hand Sword (Jul 3, 2014)

Watch the original Karate Kid. Mr. Miyagi puts it right when Daniel asks about what belt does he have.
"Leather.. JC Penny"
Then says "Karate here (pointing to head), Karate Here (Pointing to heart), Karate never here (points to waist).. You understand?"


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2014)

hoshin1600 said:


> last time i checked Eric Clapton didnt have a rank in guitar playing.  either did stevie ray vaughan, les paul or chet atkins.  do you think they need one?  does anyone who is a true artist like that feel they need a ranking?  but, but , but ....what about goal setting and being acknowledged for the skill they have?  im not against belts and ranking but they are the frosting on the cake, you usually buy the frosting..just like a belt...and if the cake sucks the cake sucks and the frosting aint gonna help.  when your new to martial arts a belt can make you feel good, but guess what, thats all it is , a feel good reward. just like little johnny who gets a trophy for participation.  ranking can be important within an organization, but then we get into politics. once you have been around the block a few times you start to see the political motivations for higher ranks.  rank or belts will never and can never be an indicator on how well you will fair in the real world if you need to defend yourself.  anyone who thinks different is fooling themselves and have been fooled by their instructor into beliveing it.  BELTS AND RANKS ARE NOT REAL!!!!    if you want to test this out, quit your dojo and go join another from another style and see if the instructor will allow you to maintain your currant rank and status.  then try going down to the wrong side of town and go into a bar and proclaim your rank and title to the patrons and tell them what a bad *** you are in the dojo. i am sure you will find out real fast how good those long belts are for lowering your casket into the ground.
> but i digress..belts are super i think everyone should have one..



Eric Clapton is ranked no 4. According to rolling stone.
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/l...31/eric-clapton-20101202eric-clapton-20101202


Otherwise a dojo storm is usually not the most grown up thing to do.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpNQAw1IxiM


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## Hand Sword (Jul 3, 2014)

Good point to bring up! To Fans, that "rank" would seem ridiculous. To others, they wouldn't see why he's "ranked" at all. Still others, agree to being on the "rank" list but would friendly debate the number. Point is, ranking is something that we all do in any format sports, generations, etc.... All it really comes down to is that rank is subjective at best. One school says you're a black belt, one says your skills are weak. I've seen great Black Belts and ones that are terrible and stumble around like fools with horrible basics. In their world, they are the cat's meow. It all depends on one's perception. The viewer's, the beholdolder's... it's all subjective and changes person to person. In the end, it just depends on how you see it or yourself. If it makes you happy, and you give something acknowledgent-- it's real! (to you)


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Serious as in how many days a week?
> 
> Moving into the concept of goal setting. Guys at my gym who fight are six days a week serious. Got a mate who grades is the same. Massive amounts of training. And they tend to get real gains because of it because the belt or the fight is important.
> 
> ...



Yes there is...


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## ballen0351 (Jul 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Eric Clapton is ranked no 4. According to rolling stone.
> http://www.rollingstone.com/music/l...31/eric-clapton-20101202eric-clapton-20101202
> 
> 
> ...


Ranking and belt color have nothing to do with each other.


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## MJS (Jul 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> And that is why I would not train under somebody who would just hand out belts because they want my money.



Neither would I.  Of course, this means, doing research and making sure the person you're training under isn't a joke.  How many people actually take the time to do this?


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## MJS (Jul 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> That is not the best analogy. A better analogy would be if the military got rid of rank. That would be the equivalent of a martial arts school getting rid of belts.



I agree with Tony...this isn't a good analogy.  Rank, be it in a dojo, a PD or Military, is simply a visual sign, denoting where someone stands.  It does not, however, mean that the student is capable of defending themselves or that the person in the Military is going to be a good decision maker.  I've seen more than my share of Sgt's and LT's in the PD that a nothing more than micro managers.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> That is not the best analogy. A better analogy would be if the military got rid of rank. That would be the equivalent of a martial arts school getting rid of belts.



I don't want to sound like I'm continually jumping on your comments, but I don't agree with this comment either.  The military has a uniform, standardized ranking structure.  If you are in the Air Force for example, you fall under the same standards for promotion in Tampa as you do in Turkey.  For example, you need to take a test within your specialty code.  The test is the same regardless of where your stationed.  Certain exceptions for accelerated promotion are in place, like the 'below the zone' from E3 to E4 but again, you have the same opportunity regardless of where you stationed.

It doesn't work like this in the martial arts.  Even within the same organization or indeed the same school it can (and often does) differ.  In KKW TKD, a Korean child can make first Dan in less than a year.  Here in the states it can be two or three years.  And it isn't because they're better.  It's just that way.  And from art to art it becomes an even bigger problem.

If you walk into my school and I see your BB, well it means nothing.  That isn't a flame or insult, just being factual.  The fact that you have a black belt could mean you're hard core or it could mean you attended a weekend at someone's school and your check cleared.  I won't know which until I see you perform.  If I go to someone else's school I don't expect them to be awed by my belt.  I expect what I have to offer to speak for itself.  

Thus maybe your belt has some sort of meaning within the confines of your school, and that's fine.  But once you step out of the door it is a piece of colored cloth to stick in the work out bag until you come back.  Nothing more.  It's main purpose is to hold your top together.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 3, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Why is it wrong not to worry about the belt?  Focus on the Skill and the belts will come.  As you said in some cases belts dont = Skill



Focusing on the skills will only get you belts if you are focusing on them the right way. You have to work hard but you also have to know what you're doing. I know of students who studied really hard in academics for tests in school and still didn't get As because they weren't studying the right way, or they weren't getting the material. You could say, don't worry about grades, focus on the knowledge and the material and the As will come, but it doesn't always work like that.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 3, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just for the record, and not wanting to derail, but in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts there are no belt ranks.



Sometimes there isn't and sometimes there is. I've been to kung fu classes that have incorporated a ranking system based on sash colors.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Focusing on the skills will only get you belts if you are focusing on them the right way. You have to work hard but you also have to know what you're doing. I know of students who studied really hard in academics for tests in school and still didn't get As because they weren't studying the right way, or they weren't getting the material. You could say, don't worry about grades, focus on the knowledge and the material and the As will come, but it doesn't always work like that.



Yes, it does. If you're tested and know the material, you will pass. If you have an exemplary understanding of the material, you will get an "A" if it's that sort of test. You cannot pass a test if you lack the knowledge or skills it covers. 

It really is that simple.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 3, 2014)

MJS said:


> Neither would I.  Of course, this means, doing research and making sure the person you're training under isn't a joke.  How many people actually take the time to do this?



Its really easy to do research to see if a person you want to train under isn't a joke. What I do is I observe a class and I observe the performance of the black belts and other high belts and if their performance sucks than I know that their instructor is a joke.


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## donald1 (Jul 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometimes there isn't and sometimes there is. I've been to kung fu classes that have incorporated a ranking system based on sash colors.



I've seen some of those sashes that is true,  and the people who had black sashes knew some really long forms (i think one had at least 108 steps) and they were serious and knew what they were doing.  Yet that was from training a belt may give the wearer feel confident and it shows that a specific style has recognized they are at a certain skill level but that is all.  However a belt may seem meaningful it will never be equal to skill level (not even by a long shot) 

You stand for what you believe in and that is worthy of respect but without skill a belt is only good for holding up pants


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 3, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't want to sound like I'm continually jumping on your comments, but I don't agree with this comment either.  The military has a uniform, standardized ranking structure.  If you are in the Air Force for example, you fall under the same standards for promotion in Tampa as you do in Turkey.  For example, you need to take a test within your specialty code.  The test is the same regardless of where your stationed.  Certain exceptions for accelerated promotion are in place, like the 'below the zone' from E3 to E4 but again, you have the same opportunity regardless of where you stationed.
> 
> It doesn't work like this in the martial arts.  Even within the same organization or indeed the same school it can (and often does) differ.  In KKW TKD, a Korean child can make first Dan in less than a year.  Here in the states it can be two or three years.  And it isn't because they're better.  It's just that way.  And from art to art it becomes an even bigger problem.
> 
> ...



A black belt at my dojo does mean something. Getting a black belt at my dojo is hard. To earn a black belt at my dojo means you've achieved a hard goal. You're right that it is just colored cloth that you put in the bag until your next workout but the fact that you've earned it means something. It might mean nothing at your school but the fact of the matter is I know in my heart that I've earned it so it doesn't matter if it means nothing at other dojos. If I decide to cross train in some other style at some other dojo, starting as a white belt at that dojo is fine and as a matter of fact I get to experience the progression of going from belt to belt at that dojo now, but the fact remains that I know I achieved a black belt at my primary dojo, which is hard to do.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 3, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes, it does. If you're tested and know the material, you will pass. If you have an exemplary understanding of the material, you will get an "A" if it's that sort of test. You cannot pass a test if you lack the knowledge or skills it covers.
> 
> It really is that simple.



Maybe you aren't studying the material right. For instance, I was very good at math and usually did well on the tests because I was good at studying math. With History, I was terrible. I wasn't good at studying the material in History and even after hard studying I still sometimes wouldn't do that well on tests. For that reason I would sometimes ask the teacher for help and for pointers on studying. The same can be done with martial arts, to ask your instructor for pointers on training and other stuff.


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Ranking and belt color have nothing to do with each other.




Sorry what?


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes there is...




And how does that equivalent work?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Maybe you aren't studying the material right.



Then you won't know the material.



PhotonGuy said:


> For instance, I was very good at math and usually did well on the tests because I was good at studying math.



Then you knew the material.



PhotonGuy said:


> With History, I was terrible. I wasn't good at studying the material in History and even after hard studying I still sometimes wouldn't do that well on tests. For that reason I would sometimes ask the teacher for help and for pointers on studying.



Then you didn't know the material.



PhotonGuy said:


> The same can be done with martial arts, to ask your instructor for pointers on training and other stuff.



Yes. You can either know the material, or not.

And the color of the belt doesn't affect that at all.

See how simple it is? You either know it, or you don't.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 3, 2014)

My replies within your quote are in black bold to make it easier to respond:



PhotonGuy said:


> A black belt at my dojo does mean something.
> *
> It means something to you, in your school.  And that is fine.*
> 
> ...



Now my question to you is simple: For those of us that really don't put a lot on belts (at all or anymore) but think our skill speaks for itself....are we still bumps on a log?


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## ballen0351 (Jul 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Sorry what?



World ranking of how good you are has nothing to do with your belt lvl.  There are millions of guitar players only 1 Clapton.   Just because you play don't mean your good.  There are millions of black belts there are far less that are actually on the lvl to be world ranked.  Same belt color far different skill lvl


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 3, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes. You can either know the material, or not.
> 
> And the color of the belt doesn't affect that at all.
> 
> See how simple it is? You either know it, or you don't.



Its not so black and white. There are different degrees of knowing the material. Just like in school how they are different grades (A, B, C, D, F). If you get a B it means they know the material relatively well but not as good as if you get an A.


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> World ranking of how good you are has nothing to do with your belt lvl.  There are millions of guitar players only 1 Clapton.   Just because you play don't mean your good.  There are millions of black belts there are far less that are actually on the lvl to be world ranked.  Same belt color far different skill lvl



Ranked by the same organisation or different ones?

Are big people more skilled than little ones? because they seem to do better on the mat.


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## Hong Kong Pooey (Jul 3, 2014)

At the WT school I attend we have 12 student levels and for comparison purposes level 12 is described as the equivalent to BB in other arts.

However instead of using coloured belts to denote rank they use different coloured plum blossom badges, so for example grade 1 you get a black badge and grade 12 you get a gold badge.

There are also 12 master levels but you don't get a new badge for those levels.

My question to the people who like focusing on belts is: would you train at a school that used a similar system to this, and would you be as motivated to go for a gold flower as you would a black belt? 

(Assuming you were happy with the art, style, instruction, price etc of course)


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## ballen0351 (Jul 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Ranked by the same organisation or different ones?
> 
> Are big people more skilled than little ones? because they seem to do better on the mat.


None of this has anything to do with belt color.  Ranking and belt color have nothing to do with eachother.  A back belt in my dojo means nothing in a TKD school or BJJ school or even another Goju Dojo unless it's affiliated with mine.


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Its really easy to do research to see if a person you want to train under isn't a joke. What I do is I observe a class and I observe the performance of the black belts and other high belts and if their performance sucks than I know that their instructor is a joke.



If you are an experienced martial artist and looking for a change of art or school that is easy, if you are an absolute beginner then you might not know if the quality of teaching is good or not. The beginners who come to this school might have thought that it was good, after all they have a lot of students;


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## Hand Sword (Jul 4, 2014)

It also has to do with the time put in. In connection, when I was younger I tried a few styles of M.A.. They just seem to connect with me at the time so I tried Kempo and I liked it. As the years go on, I don't see Kempo like that anymore. I tend to view Kata and the traditional styles more favorable. I hated kata forever. Point is, the journey will change you, from one end to another. As I said previously. It's all subjective. We all do and pursue what interests/ or motivates us at the moment. If it's belt advancement for someone, it provides the impetus to keep training. If it's passion, you keep training. Whatever it is, you keep training. So, in the end, it's all just personally preferenced tools that we all use for the job. None "right" ot "wrong," just different.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 4, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Getting a black belt at my dojo is hard. To earn a black belt at my dojo means you've achieved a hard goal.
> 
> *That is subjective. What may be hard to you may be fluff to someone else. To be clear, I'm not saying you didn't work hard for you belt and my comment isn't to be taken as such. But it's just like body building (another pursuit for me), some folks thing they've had a hard workout and in reality it would only count as someone else's warm up.
> 
> As an example, Karl Gotch (RIP) of catch-as-catch-can-submission-wrestling wouldn't even train you until you could do 250 continuous Hindu push ups and 500 continuous Hindu squats. In other words you didn't even start at white belt (not that they used belts but as an example) until you could do those exercises. For us, our requirement is a 1-20-1 pyramid as PART of the BB test as well as Sanchin kata. I show a Sanchin BB test to some in the martial arts and they freak, not even mentioning the 1-20-1 pyramid! So 'hard' is subjective.*



Its all relative. 250 Hindu pushups and 500 Hindu squats might be hard by some standards and Karl Gotch might be considered a tough trainer to require somebody to be able to do that before he will even start teaching them, but its not as hard as if somebody were to require 500 Hindu pushups and 1000 Hindu squats. But I do know this. Getting a black belt at my dojo is harder than getting it in most of the other dojos I've seen. I've been to many dojos, some I've trained at and some I've just visited to observe classes and have seen how the students perform including the high ranking students. My dojo has produced many tournament winners and has produced olympic gold medalists and has reached a certain degree of fame in the martial arts world. So getting a black belt at my dojo requires devotion and hard work, you are not going to get it handed to you or sold to you like it is in some dojos. Just like getting the Navy Trident is hard by just about any standards, and by that I mean earning it and not just buying it and pinning it to your shirt as some people do. It would be hard to say that it's subjective about the Navy Trident being hard to get.


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2014)

I think if fifty Martial Artists who agreed on everything were put into a room, we'd still debate everything to death and back. 








We all be kinda crazy.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 4, 2014)

When I started this thread I was only stating my position about how I felt if somebody in the martial arts cared about rank or not. When I said that people who didn't care about rank were bumps on logs, it was a point of view that I wanted to have challenged as I do realize I can be wrong and I learn from having my viewpoints challenged. It was a viewpoint that even I wasn't completely sure about and so I wanted to see what people had to say about it. Now, thinking it over I will say this. People go into the martial arts for all various reasons. Some people go into it to learn all they can, develop the most skill, be the best they can be, and along with it get a black belt or some other high rank. Some people to into it for fun, some people go into it just to try it out and see what its like. Some people go into it because they want to get in good shape and they want to lose weight, they want to burn off calories and could care less about getting a black belt or any other rank for that matter. So for people who don't care about rank there is nothing wrong about that but there is also nothing wrong if you do care about rank. Just like there is nothing wrong with wanting to get As in school there is nothing wrong with wanting to get a black belt. Just like there is nothing wrong with wanting to get an Eagle badge in Boyscouts there is nothing wrong with wanting to get a black belt. Yes, there are some people who go into Boyscouts because they want to learn about stuff such as camping, outdoor activities, and other stuff you learn in Boyscouts but they don't care much about badges or rank. There are also those who go into Boyscouts who want to learn all that stuff but they also want to be an Eagle scout eventually, its a goal they've got and there is nothing wrong with that. So as I said, there is nothing wrong with not caring about rank in the martial arts and there is nothing wrong with caring about rank in the martial arts. However, since rank is one of the things I do care about in the martial arts, if you're somebody who doesn't care about rank than some of the stuff I say wouldn't apply to you.

And as for my remark about being a bump on a log, I first thought of that years back on this other martial arts message board when I read a message that this guy wrote. He went to a dojo where the sensei tells the student when they will test for a belt. He then stated that this was partially because getting a belt was not about just obtaining the necessary skill and ability but also about having patience and that therefore even if you are skilled enough for a certain rank that doesn't mean you're ready for it because you also have to be patient and wait. When I read what he wrote I interpreted it as a waste of time as far as waiting for a rank, that if you have the necessary skill you should be ready for it. Yes you do need patience in the martial arts, you're not going to be a black belt on day one, at least not if you go to a dojo that makes you earn it. It takes time to develop the necessary skill and ability to get a black belt and that takes years, so that is where the patience comes in. However, if a student has developed the necessary skill and ability for a certain rank, including black belt, than they have fulfilled the patience requirement because of the time it took to gain that skill and ability. Somebody here posted about dojos that promote students once a month. While I do think that's absurd, I also think its absurd to hold a student back who has developed the skill for a rank because you want them to be patient. To wait for ranks instead of working hard for them, that is what I consider a bump on a log and I first thought about that years back when I read that guy's message in this other martial arts board.


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