# TSD and TKD



## Kaygee (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi,

Does anyone know what the difference would be between Tang Soo Do MDK and Tae-Kwon Do MDK?

They "say" that TKD is more kicking than TSD. Also, is there any sort of "self defense" in TKD like the hapkido there is in TSD?
Why are they both Mu Duk Kwan but different arts?

Thanks!


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## Kaygee (Dec 27, 2012)

For some reason, it didn't come up before, but I found another similar thread about this. It seems the difference is that TKD kicks 70% of the time and punches 30% of the time and TSD does 50/50.
Also, I am seeing that TKD does not have any sort of joint locks or hapkido techniques that TSD has.

Thanks!


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## arnisador (Dec 27, 2012)

That's a fair summary, though of course it varies. Originally, TKD was Japanese in origin while TSD had more Chinese influence in it. Today you'll often see HKD taught with TKD as "self-defense" but TSD has some of that material in it already and less sport aspect.


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## MAist25 (Dec 28, 2012)

Ehh, I'm a practitioner of TKD Moo Duk Kwan and we fight about 50/50 hands to feet. Also, there are a decent amount of joint locks and throws taught as well. It really just comes down to lineage rather than the actual style, as TKD MDK and TSD MDK tend to be extremely similar in practice. The only difference might possibly be the forms taught at your specific dojang but that really is it.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 28, 2012)

MAist25 said:


> Ehh, I'm a practitioner of TKD Moo Duk Kwan and we fight about 50/50 hands to feet. Also, there are a decent amount of joint locks and throws taught as well. It really just comes down to lineage rather than the actual style, as TKD MDK and TSD MDK tend to be extremely similar in practice. The only difference might possibly be the forms taught at your specific dojang but that really is it.



I agree.  TKD is a very wide-ranging art.  You could walk into one school and see a sport-only oriented version of TKD and then walk across the street to another school and think you're looking at a HKD school.  Generally speaking, TKD is better known as a kicking, sport-oriented art as that has become the main stream.  But there are schools that teach joint locks and throws, not as an add-on but rather as a main part of the curriculum.  And some schools, particularly in GB and Europe are trending that way.  These schools tend to be much more self-defense oriented simply because of what is taught.  Doesn't make one better than the other, simply a different focus.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 28, 2012)

The question cannot be answered simply because neither TSD MDK or TKD MDK are homogenous.

GGM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan. Then he joined the KTA. Then he left. Then he formed TSD MDK. Then he changed it to SBD MDK. Each of these different iterations have further branched over the years.

What's the difference between (book) and (different book)? No answer is possible without a more specific question.


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## Kaygee (Dec 28, 2012)

I guess, to be more specific, I was looking for if the joint locks and small amount of Hapkido are part of the TKD curriculum like they are with TSD, but I am finding out that they are not. It seems from the schools that I visited, 
TKD has no joint locks or throws, but has one-step and three-step sparring. 
TSD has joint lock and throws, but only one-step sparring.

That's what I see anyway. Other than that, all of the forms that i have seen (WTF TKD, if that means anything) are exactly the same as TSD. I am looking for that little bit of Hapkido though, so unfortunately, that makes or breaks a decision to attend a school for me and TKD ( in my area anyway) doesn't seem to institute that into their practice.

Thanks!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 28, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> I guess, to be more specific, I was looking for if the joint locks and small amount of Hapkido are part of the TKD curriculum like they are with TSD, but I am finding out that they are not. It seems from the schools that I visited,
> TKD has no joint locks or throws, but has one-step and three-step sparring.
> TSD has joint lock and throws, but only one-step sparring.
> 
> ...



1 - Joint locks, throws, etc are part of some TKD schools. Not all. They are also part of some TSD schools, not all. I learned a great deal about joint locks, throws, etc in my original ITF training. We teach them in the TKD MDK school I currently attend.
You're making a ridiculous and inaccurate over generalization.

2 - There is no such thing as WTF TKD. If you mean Kukkiwon TKD, then no, the forms are absolutely NOT the same as those taught in any TSD system that remotely follows the teachings of GGM Hwang Kee.


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## MAist25 (Dec 28, 2012)

I agree with dirty dog. As I have already stated, joint locks and throws are taught and practiced quite often at my TKD MDK school. They are not added on techniques, they are part of the art and have always been. As far as how much they are practiced it depends on the individual school but somebody who practices TKD MDK should be at least fairly familiar with some basic locks and throws, if not some pretty advanced joint locking and throwing techniques. If they are not, it is not the style that is the problem because there is plenty there to learn, but it is the teachers fault for not passing these techniques on or emphasizing them enough. Dont make assumptions on an entire system based on what you saw after observing a class or two at a couple schools in your hometown.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 28, 2012)

MAist25 said:


> ...joint locks and throws are taught and practiced quite often at my TKD MDK school. They are not added on techniques, they are part of the art and have always been.
> 
> As far as how much they are practiced it depends on the individual school but somebody who practices TKD MDK should be at least fairly familiar with some basic locks and throws, if not some pretty advanced joint locking and throwing techniques.
> 
> If they are not, it is not the style that is the problem because there is plenty there to learn, but it is the teachers fault for not passing these techniques on or emphasizing them enough.



Three excellent statements (emphasis added).  As I mentioned, there are some TKD schools where if you walked in and there were no signs to indicate what art was being taught, you might think it was Hapkido or Jujutsu.  Whether or not they're in your area or not is another story however.  

Could always look for one of our Kong Soo Do schools, look the same as many Hapkido schools (okay, shameless plug) 

Hope you can find something that meets what you're looking for


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## Kaygee (Dec 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're making a ridiculous and inaccurate over generalization.


Is it possible for you to respond to any of my posts without being an ignorant jerk? My comments CLEARLY states 
*"It seems from the schools that I visited"*
I even put it in bold there for ya! There's no reason for the smart *** remarks every time you respond to one of my comments. Thank you!


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## seasoned (Dec 28, 2012)

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## arnisador (Dec 29, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> *"It seems from the schools that I visited"*



My general impression on TKD vs. TSD emphases is the same as yours, but I also agree with those who say it varies widely. Most karate styles don't emphasize joint locks, but some look almost like jujutsu! People add what they find helpful, or mix their backgrounds--it's a good thing.


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## WaterGal (Dec 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> 2 - There is no such thing as WTF TKD. If you mean Kukkiwon TKD, then no, the forms are absolutely NOT the same as those taught in any TSD system that remotely follows the teachings of GGM Hwang Kee.



"WTF TKD" may not be technically correct, but all the TKD masters I know do refer to it that way.  I'm not sure if it's because they're really sport focused, or because more people are familiar with WTF than KKW as organizations?  But I think it's very understandable for the OP to say that, considering.

As far as forms go, I am curious what the official TSD forms are?  The TSD schools around here (i.e., both of our major competitors) apparently use Palgwe.  But they also market themselves as "karate", so who knows what's up with them.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 29, 2012)

WaterGal said:


> "WTF TKD" may not be technically correct, but all the TKD masters I know do refer to it that way.



How very sad. I am happy to report that the ones I know (perhaps not all, since I can't say that it's something that has come up with each and every one, but certainly those with whom it's been a topic of conversation) know the difference and refer to the Moo Duk Kwan or the Kukkiwon or the WTF as appropriate based on what is under discussion. If we're talking about Olympic sport TKD events, then it's the WTF (but not WTF TKD). If we're talking styles of TKD, then it's either KKW or MDK.



WaterGal said:


> As far as forms go, I am curious what the official TSD forms are?  The TSD schools around here (i.e., both of our major competitors) apparently use Palgwe.  But they also market themselves as "karate", so who knows what's up with them.



As with TKD, the answer is "It depends", simply because like TKD (and pretty much every MA) there is more than one branch of TSD. Some use the pyung am forms (variants of the pinan kata). Some use the palgwe. Some TKD schools use the palgwe.
And I wouldn't be in the least suprised to hear that there are other branches using other poomsae entirely. There cannot be "official" TSD forms so long as there is more than one branch. There can only be 'the particular forms used in this particular branch of TSD'.


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## Kaygee (Dec 29, 2012)

DirtyDog,
The one place I was at has a WTF Tae Kwon Do flag *AND* a Mu Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do flag on the wall of their dojang. So they can definitely be the same thing somewhere. It is actually a well known dojang in the area and every single other instructor in other schools have heard of the school, and of the grandmaster there, and praise it for being such a "pure interpretation" of Tae Kwon Do.

WaterGal,
The three Tae Kwon Do places that I viewed classes at, all did the pyung ahn forms.....the same forms that I did for 2 1/2 years in Tang Soo Do. There was literally no difference in technique or anything!


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 29, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> DirtyDog,
> The one place I was at has a WTF Tae Kwon Do flag *AND* a Mu Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do flag on the wall of their dojang. So they can definitely be the same thing somewhere. It is actually a well known dojang in the area and every single other instructor in other schools have heard of the school, and of the grandmaster there, and praise it for being such a "pure interpretation" of Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> WaterGal,
> The three Tae Kwon Do places that I viewed classes at, all did the pyung ahn forms.....the same forms that I did for 2 1/2 years in Tang Soo Do. There was literally no difference in technique or anything!



A school could be any type of TKD or TSD (or pretty much any style for that matter) and participate in WTF events. WTF "style" refers to a competition rule-set as opposed to a style of Taekwondo. A school doesn't have to be Kukkiwon to compete under WTF rules.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 29, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> DirtyDog,
> The one place I was at has a WTF Tae Kwon Do flag *AND* a Mu Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do flag on the wall of their dojang. So they can definitely be the same thing somewhere. It is actually a well known dojang in the area and every single other instructor in other schools have heard of the school, and of the grandmaster there, and praise it for being such a "pure interpretation" of Tae Kwon Do.



The folks AT the WTF will tell you differently. 
Here is the intro. Note specifically what the WTF is.
Here is the organizational chart for the WTF. Note the total and complete lack of anybody doing any sort of ranking or setting of standards for anything resembling a style.
Here is the membership list. Note how short it is. Not the utter and complete abscense of any schools or individuals. If you check further, you will learn that the member orgs also issue rank for one style of TKD and one style only - Kukkiwon.

No, they cannot be the same thing. No instructor can be a member of the WTF. No school can be a member of the WTF. No organization (other than the national governing body for the SPORT of TKD - which is not a style) can be a member.
The WTF does one thing and one thing only. They promote the Olympic sport of TKD. They do not set training standards. They have no curriculum. They do not award rank.
And since the only style of TKD allowed in Olympic (WTF sponsored) competition is Kukkiwon, it's certainly not the same as the Moo Duk Kwan. The Moo Duk Kwan schools I am familiar with do not follow the Kukkiwon curriculum (although it is optional in some, such as ours). The rank requirement for Olympic TKD competition is Kukkiwon 1st Dan or higher. No rank from any other organization is acceptable. Now why do you suppose that is, if the WTF were a style of its own? Wouldn't you expect that if there were such a thing as WTF TKD, that WTF TKD rank would be available and acceptable for those competing in WTF-sponsored events?

Here is what the folks at the WTF say about Dan grading:


> All matters about black belt Poom/Dan certification are dealt with by the
> Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters). Dan/Poom promotion tests are conducted
> according to the Regulations for Promotion Tests of the Kukkiwon. To go to the
> website of the Kukkiwon, please click here.



Anybody can hang up a flag. I think I have one somewhere, myself.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 29, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> A school could be any type of TKD or TSD (or pretty much any style for that matter) and participate in WTF events. WTF "style" refers to a competition rule-set as opposed to a style of Taekwondo. A school doesn't have to be Kukkiwon to compete under WTF rules.



Not true, although I wish it were. While anyone can run an event under WTF rules, in order to participate in an actual WTF sponsored event, you must hold Kukkiwon rank.


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## Kaygee (Dec 29, 2012)

I believe you, Dirty Dog! I am simply stating what I saw with my own eyes.


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not true, although I wish it were. While anyone can run an event under WTF rules, in order to participate in an actual WTF sponsored event, you must hold Kukkiwon rank.



First, do you believe it's impossible to get Kukkiwon rank if you don't belong to a Kukkiwon school?

Second, there are any number of tournaments using the WTF ruleset that don't require competitors to have Kukkiwon rank. Actual WTF sanctioned events like the Olympics or World Championships require the Kukkiwon rank, but less than 1% of all taekwondoin will ever compete at anywhere near that level.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 29, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> A school could be any type of TKD or TSD (or pretty much any style for that matter) and participate in WTF events. WTF "style" refers to a competition rule-set as opposed to a style of Taekwondo. A school doesn't have to be Kukkiwon to compete under WTF rules.





Dirty Dog said:


> Not true, although I wish it were. While anyone can run an event under WTF rules, in order to participate in an actual WTF sponsored event, you must hold Kukkiwon rank.





Jaeimseu said:


> First, do you believe it's impossible to get Kukkiwon rank if you don't belong to a Kukkiwon school?



Absolutely not. In its role as The Borg, the Kukkiwon has long offered assimilation rank to people from other TKD orgs. Often, without even requiring a test or any confirmation that the person knows the Kukkiwon curriculum. Not to practitioners of other styles (such as CMA or JMA or even non-TKD KMA). 



Jaeimseu said:


> Second, there are any number of tournaments using the WTF ruleset that don't require competitors to have Kukkiwon rank.



Absolutely. See up there where I said exactly that? Of course, those are *not* WTF events, by definition.



Jaeimseu said:


> Actual WTF sanctioned events like the Olympics or World Championships require the Kukkiwon rank, but less than 1% of all taekwondoin will ever compete at anywhere near that level.



Agreed. However, you said (and I quoted it again, in case you forgot) that you could enter WTF events without Kukkiwon ranking. This is simply not true, although I do wish it were. I'd much prefer to see Olympic competition open to all practitioners. I'd also like to see hands used. But it ain't going to happen.


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