# Giving weapon back to attacker?!?



## Aikikitty (Dec 6, 2008)

I was practicing tanto/knife control and take away techniques in class this morning and my sensei told us to not hand the weapon back to the uke afterwards. To my knowledge he hadn't mentioned us not doing so in the past, but he told the story of (a cop, I think) who recently was in combat and disarmed the criminal and after he took him down, automatically GAVE HIM HIS WEAPON BACK and had to disarm him all over again!!!!  :jaw-dropping: :erg: My sensei said the guy did it without thinking because it has been his habit in training for years (in dojo, gym, or police training--who knows) to give the weapon back once he takes it away.

That sheds new light on something I never thought about. I almost always in class (out of politeness) just hand the practice weapon back to uke. Now we just toss it away, but this morning, out of habit, I kept handing it back like usual. I very much doubt that in a "real" situation, I'd be boneheaded enough to give the weapon back to whoever was attacking me, but I bet this guy didn't think he'd ever do that either.

Thoughts?

Robyn


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 6, 2008)

The Opal Dragon said:


> I was practicing tanto/knife control and take away techniques in class this morning and my sensei told us to not hand the weapon back to the uke afterwards. To my knowledge he hadn't mentioned us not doing so in the past, but he told the story of (a cop, I think) who recently was in combat and disarmed the criminal and after he took him down, automatically GAVE HIM HIS WEAPON BACK and had to disarm him all over again!!!!  :jaw-dropping: :erg: My sensei said the guy did it without thinking because it has been his habit in training for years (in dojo, gym, or police training--who knows) to give the weapon back once he takes it away.
> 
> That sheds new light on something I never thought about. I almost always in class (out of politeness) just hand the practice weapon back to uke. Now we just toss it away, but this morning, out of habit, I kept handing it back like usual. I very much doubt that in a "real" situation, I'd be boneheaded enough to give the weapon back to whoever was attacking me, but I bet this guy didn't think he'd ever do that either.
> 
> ...



It's a good question. How you train is how you fight. I've been taught always to get control of the tanto. When the technique is over, yes, I do hand it back. If I'm defending, I'm expected to have the knife in my hand at the end of the technique.

Throwing it away as a defensive measure, I suppose, is fine if you've actually thrown away, so that the attacker or an accomplice can't get it.

During my test, I tried to get away with throwing the weapon behind a stack of mats in the corner, hoping I steal a few minutes to get my breath back. When a bunch I guys were chasing me, I circled around one of the examiners who was standing close to the wall, so they kinda' crashed into him. He took it well.


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## fireman00 (Dec 6, 2008)

There was an article in Black Belt Mag. about an LEO who disarmed an assailant but gave back the weapon all because that's what he'd done during his training. 

The article recommended tossing the weapon under a car, in the garbage, over a wall - do anything but don't hand it back, even during training.

Also, the author recommended that schools/ teachers not use the command words "stop" or "halt"  when asking students to end their practice because of the Pavlov principle - students are used to stopping when they hear those commands - it could potentially happen in the real world .


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## MA-Caver (Dec 6, 2008)

It would definitely be a bone headed thing to do ... sure... and it's sad to read that someone, particularly a cop actually did it. DUH! :duh: 
But somehow I think, in the real life situation... your attacker is going to be hopefully incapacitated to where you could lay their weapon on their chest because they're unconscious (and the police are on the way... but actually you want to retain the weapon or at least put it on the ground and stand on it til the police arrive and you can show it to them) , or at least screaming from a broken bone/joint too much to even care... IF your training taught you anything you won't let up until they're down and _not_ getting back up... umm right? 

What IS important is what to *do* with the weapon once you've taken it away... do you use it on them? throw it away? (please don't even think it!), some how still incapacitate your attacker without using it? 
Unless your disarm in effect hurts the attacker enough to stop them or at least drive the thought of hurting YOU out of their heads... :idunno: well it's kinda moot at that point eh? 
Now YOU got the knife... whaddya do? 
What do you do? 
Remember, now, you're the aggressor, the threat (or at least the immediate threat) has been neutralized or at least minimized. But in the eyes of the court will it been enough to where the one in question isn't a threat to you anymore? 
If they keep coming at you? Well then they are a continuing threat. If they stop in their tracks or make to where they want to get away... then they're not really. 
If they got friends then the threat is still there regardless. In _my_ street experience attackers are rarely alone, though it has happened. 

Things to think about... to me more important than worrying about doing something stupid like giving the knife back. 
But agreed, bad habits can be picked up without realizing it. Practice a technique, got it right or got it wrong, lets do it again... here's the knife back... :duh: .  
But you still gotta practice right? 
Things to think about, sure.


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## jks9199 (Dec 6, 2008)

The "trick" is to carry the technique all the way through to an end/stabilization, then deliberately STOP, go to a neutral point, and exchange the weapon as a deliberate pause in the training, rather than the "you disarm me; I disarm you" trade off that's very easy to do.  And it does build bad habits...  I've heard the story more than once about a cop disarming someone and handing the knife right back...

I think that the concern about the word stop is a good point; I once heard _someone_ say "stop" during a kickboxing match -- and I thought it was the ref.  It wasn't... and I got clocked!  An easy alternate, that we all understand, is "RED LIGHT."  The meaning is clear, it's easy to use...


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## Drac (Dec 7, 2008)

fireman00 said:


> There was an article in Black Belt Mag. about an LEO who disarmed an assailant but gave back the weapon all because that's what he'd done during his training.


 
That has occured in training *MORE *than once..I had head about that situation long before that article/ letter appeared in BB..


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## theletch1 (Dec 7, 2008)

We have always trained that you never hand the weapon back to the attacker.  You either toss it away or take a defensive stance with the weapon until the technique is obviously done.  Once that's over with you'll toss the weapon off to one side so that uke has to bend over to pick it up.  We also train that you never put a hand out to help someone you've just thrown up from the ground.  It all goes back to the idea that Gordon Nore put forth in the first line of his post.  You will fight the way you train.  In a true defense situation you may well be reacting on pure "instinct" that has been ingrained in you from training.  If you train to hand the weapon back or help someone up you may well do the same on the street.  Why take the chance.  So long as all the students in your class understand that you're not doing it to be rude then you'll be fine.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 7, 2008)

Drac said:


> That has occured in training *MORE *than once..I had head about that situation long before that article/ letter appeared in BB..


 

I heard the story so long ago, I thought it was one of those "stories" told that may not have any truth, but had a moral. By having it be a Police officer someone who should know better and someone who should be trained from the perception of the average beginner to immediate person, it makes it also seem very reasonable that you would do it as well, and therefore shoudl pay attention and not create the habit. 

I agree with JKS as well, you finish the technique go back to a relaxed neutral, "I am done and could walk away and get a drink of water" stance. This way when you do relax in a real situation you have a chance to let go as well. Until you do relax your training might give you a chance to retain the weapon.


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## arnisador (Dec 7, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> I heard the story so long ago, I thought it was one of those "stories" told that may not have any truth, but had a moral.



Yeah, I always thought the same--likely apocryphal, but it had a lesson in it.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> The "trick" is to carry the technique all the way through to an end/stabilization, then deliberately STOP, go to a neutral point, and exchange the weapon as a deliberate pause in the training, rather than the "you disarm me; I disarm you" trade off that's very easy to do.



I think that's my teacher's thinking. A clip of him (in red) and a new dan practising some knife defenses. The camera shake and heavy breathing is me.






There's a visible pause and a kind of unspoken agreement that the technique is complete and the weapon is being returned.


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## jks9199 (Dec 7, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> I think that's my teacher's thinking. A clip of him (in red) and a new dan practising some knife defenses. The camera shake and heavy breathing is me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Close, but in several cases, there wasn't really a stop or point of stabilization after the technique.  They did the technique, then handed the knife over.

Let me use a simplest approach I can come up with as an example:
Attacker thrusts with knife
Defender side steps and traps the knife
Defender uses a takedown on attacker, following with a head stomp to end the fight.

At that point, before continuing, attacker has to stand up and recover their feet.  It's over; no chance for continuing.  End and stabilization is clear.

Change it slightly, and make the trap a disarm, and use a simple throw instead of smashing the skull.  It's very easy to roll back and forth through the sequence, just passing the knife back and forth.  Instead... after the throw, there needs to be a deliberate consciousness of assessing the situation, and deciding what further action is needed.  Practice doing this, so that if you do it for real, you've got that actual break as a "programmed" part of the technique.


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## morph4me (Dec 8, 2008)

I believe that the habits you create  in training will carry over if you have to use your training to defend yourself. When you stand up from taking ukemi, you should stand ready to defend. Never help uke up after you've thrown him.  Make sure you have possesion of the weapon at the end of the technique, which means that if you throw him with the eapon, make sure you take it away from him on the ground. If you're going to give a weapon back, don't do it until you've both returned to your starting position and it's clear that the last attack is over and you're both ready to continue or you're ready to finish the exercise.


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## punisher73 (Dec 8, 2008)

There are certain things that the mind/body will do in extreme stress situations.  One of those things is it will go to the "default programming" that you have placed there.  This is why some people freeze....there is no program of ANY kind for the brain to default to.

There have been things that have happened that do boggle the mind, and causes one to think, "I would never do that."

1) Police in a shootout, an officer died and he was found to have empty brass in his hands.  His training was after emptying your gun than you patrol your brass and pick it up.

2) Officer disarms subject and then gives the gun back immediately because training never included continuing it to the end.

Here is one when I went through my knife training that caused me to go "huh?"  An officer down in New Mexico area if I remember right.  It was back when many departments had just made the switch from revolvers to the Glock pistol.  An armed subject pulls up his shirt with one hand and reaches for a gun with the other.  The officer grabs the suspect's hand and pulls his Glock.  He then proceeds to pistol whip the snot out of the suspect causing many injuries.  The officer never once fired his new gun.  There was a lot of political scuttlebut about it because the suspect's face looked HORRIBLE and it didnt' look good.  Alot of time was spent explaining that the officer could have just shot the guy, but chose a less lethal option.

This brings up the fact that, you BETTER PRACTICE WITH WHAT EQUIPMENT YOU CARRY AND USE!!!  If you buy a new gun or holster you better go through the reps to make it second nature.  Get a new knife?  You had better practice deploying it without thought.  Everything has it's own idiosyncrasies that Mr. Murphy likes to ruin your day with.


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## stickarts (Dec 8, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Yeah, I always thought the same--likely apocryphal, but it had a lesson in it.


 
same here.


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## charyuop (Dec 9, 2008)

I remember the first time we used a tanto in class. I did just like that video and gave the "knife" back with the handle towards my opponent (wanted to be nice): Got my hand sliced and stabbed.
I was taught that if I want to give the weapon back to hold the handle and give knife horizontally with the cutting edge towards opponent. This way the only way to get knife is taking the blade from behind...hard to attack with the knife. Moreover if the attacker trys to punch or kich you still have the knife between you 2 ready to be used.

Of course, theory...real thing, never give weapon back


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## ejaazi (Dec 12, 2008)

1) I never give the weapon back to uke.

2) I never put it so far away that a fast uke can pick it up and pick up speed in their attack while covering a large distance.

3) I usually try to put it behind me so that I am in the way of the uke getting to it.


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