# Krav Maga and Boxing? Huh?



## stanley neptune (Apr 25, 2004)

Since Krav Maga (KM) has taken on the mass marketing strategy of Tae Bo it claims to incorporate boxing or is boxing oriented. I first learned of KM about 15 to 20 years ago prior to the current mass marketing/McDojo business model now used by KM. At that time KM was described as using elbows and open hand strikes. The open hand strikes were used as most military and law enforcement organizations promoted this approach so combatants would not break a hand in an altercation. 

Now KM uses boxing. Does this make sense? I would think a palm to the nose or chin beats a fist. Especially in a quick altercation that requires blunt trauma to end it quickly.

Any thoughts on this issue? Thanks in advance.

Stanley Neptune

PS I ask the question not to be troll like but because there are a couple of KM schools in Boston that I want to check out.


----------



## kurobushi (Apr 25, 2004)

Humm..Well just as the Navy Seals and U.S speal foreces incoporate the basic boxing blows (Upeprcut/Hook/ect) intot heir training, I figured Krav Magra did the same to increase it's effectivines. I would agree that a palm beats a fist in certain situations, but also hooks and uppercuts may be useful


----------



## Shogun (May 1, 2004)

Not only does it reduce breaking your own hand, but a palm strike or knife chop will reduce Visual damage to the person, while shattering nerves in the face. Better for court cases.....Not guilty!


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 2, 2004)

Shattering nerves in the face?  Nerves don't shatter, and are wiggly so as to slip out fomr under impact blows (the body saw fit to engineer protective mechanisms for important structures).

Court: Fist or open hand, battery is battery. Your position should be morally defensable before even engaging. Once that's handled, you're still in for a ride if the other guy wants to take you to task.

Reduced damage? I guess it depends on how you train.  Rumor has it that, after you've shattered a nerve, you can drive the nose bone right up in to the brain and kill the guy.

D.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 2, 2004)

Stanley: KM does seem to have undergone some changes. I worked with an early KM bwah some time ago as bodyguards, and he talked much about the elbows of KM.  Don't hear that much about that aspect of it anymore. Still under construction?

D.


----------



## Lcash (Jun 9, 2004)

Krav Maga still emphasis elbows, hammer fists, knees, PALM STRIKES, boxing, and low to mid range kicking.  One of the reasons for the boxing that by the way has always been a part of KM is that was the primary style of the originator of KM.  We are trained using boxing strikes for the full force drills such as punching targets where using palm strikes would not be practical.  We are taught that in a real life situation a palm strike is preferable to a closed fist because of the risk of injury.  I just took my level 2 test and I dare any one who thinks it is tae-bo to step up to the plate and try it out.  The first test is 4 1/2 hours long and was full of full force stress drills.

Lcash


----------



## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

Well if its mixing boxing in with it it might be the slipping and body movement applications that boxing teaches. Also many people when stress is applied to them go back to their instincts. In alot of streetfights and even bar fights I think I have seen maybe 1 or 2 people use a palm or a chop to hit someone. Boxing is a good physical training sport and teaches the primary tools to fighting. That is if you are standing up of course!!!


----------



## loki09789 (Jun 10, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> Now KM uses boxing. Does this make sense? I would think a palm to the nose or chin beats a fist. Especially in a quick altercation that requires blunt trauma to end it quickly.
> 
> Any thoughts on this issue? Thanks in advance.
> 
> ...


Believe it or don't, from what little I know about KM, boxing and Western military hand to hand/combatives training (as in what WWII vets were taught as 'combat judo') are some of the original influences of KM.

I think that since KM students are civilians now more than military recruits/vets of the Israeli Army, the Boxing component accomplishes a few things that military trained practitioners would get from other aspects of military training.  Fighting spirit, fitness, toughness.... all things that a military style program can instill in other training classes (usually emphasized during bayonet and pugil stick training during my service days).  The hand to hand component was just that - primarily a technical/tactical component added to the list of weapons in a soldiers arsenal.

Civilians don't get that wholistic package, so I think that adding a boxing component (as long as it doesn't distract from the street effectiveness) can be a good way of developing the personal fighter.


----------



## white mantis (Jun 10, 2004)

I thouth Krav Maga was founded by a pro-Boxer and wrestler. :idunno:


----------



## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

Whatever he did with it, he kicked *** in a totally impressive world title a few weeks back ( against ( ?) Guatasomeone ?? ( sorry .......btw : isn't it funny how I can't remember the loosers name ) and ended in the last with one of the most  awesome chop off speed display exchanges I've seen for a loong time.  
Can't hate on _that!!!_


I also  remember that he had _great_ feet and was constantly pivot changing and back stepping to swap  his lead side ( as oppose to striking hand ) then bridging karate style.

No hate mail from this department anyway.

cheers

Blooming Lotus


----------



## Loki (Apr 21, 2005)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Whatever he did with it, he kicked *** in a totally impressive world title a few weeks back ( against ( ?) Guatasomeone ?? ( sorry .......btw : isn't it funny how I can't remember the loosers name ) and ended in the last with one of the most awesome chop off speed display exchanges I've seen for a loong time.
> Can't hate on _that!!!_
> 
> 
> ...


Don't know who you saw, but it wasn't KM's founder. Imi Lichtenfeld died in 1998.

As for the original question, Krav Maga is an evolving style. It adapts and adopts ideas from other martial arts. Boxing is good use of your hands, so it was adopted. Muay Thai elbows and knees are effective, so they were adopted.

Krav Maga isn't a style that takes a drill from here and a drill from there and calls it a new martial art. It incorporates ideas, not neccessarily whole drills. Aikido has an effective technique from defending against a stick to the top of your head, so the initial motion is followed by punch to the face instead of the flowing inertia-manipulation so common to Aikido.

~ Loki


----------



## searcher (Apr 22, 2005)

white mantis said:
			
		

> I thouth Krav Maga was founded by a pro-Boxer and wrestler. :idunno:


On the nose.  

He trained in boxing and wrestling then combined the two to form the base of the system.   Next he took what ever else he could get that was effective and put it in.   It is a truly eclectic system.  

If you want some info on systems similar to it look up Hisardut and Haganah.


----------



## mantis (Oct 3, 2005)

well you have to understand the idea of krav maga and the need for it to be born to understand how it's going to evolve..
krav maga should not restrict the fighter with a palm or punch.. it simply uses your natural instinct.. the idea is to use your reaction, regardless how it looks, to free you from threats, and, if possible, turn the threat back onto the attacker.  krav maga was developed by a psychologist who studied the human reactions, and he put it to evolve in ANY way that makes it more effective.
what doesnt make sense is associating it with a style.


----------



## Loki (Oct 14, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> If you want some info on systems similar to it look up Hisardut and Haganah.


 I looked up Hagannah, and apparently it's Krav Maga under a different name to avoid copyright wars.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 14, 2005)

I had had that impression, but wasn't sure about it. I think Krav Maga is the only truly Israeli system--others are variants, right?


----------



## Loki (Oct 14, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I had had that impression, but wasn't sure about it. I think Krav Maga is the only truly Israeli system--others are variants, right?


 That's fairly accurate.

 Thanks for that positive rep point, it's nice to know other people want to see this forum staying active.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 14, 2005)

Well, it's the next best thing to getting to a seminar on the system, I figure!


----------



## arnisador (Oct 27, 2005)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> Since Krav Maga (KM) has taken on the mass marketing strategy of Tae Bo it claims to incorporate boxing or is boxing oriented.


 
Imi Lichtenfeld was, as stated, a boxer, and early versions of the system relied heavily on boxing techniques, I believe. Like anything, it's changed.

Last night I heard an instructor of JKD say that KM has evolved to the point of being 'bad JKD'. I've heard other arts claim that KM was ripping them off too. I think it's a sign of the success of KM that others are trying to take some credit for influencing it!


----------



## Loki (Dec 3, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Imi Lichtenfeld was, as stated, a boxer, and early versions of the system relied heavily on boxing techniques, I believe. Like anything, it's changed.
> 
> Last night I heard an instructor of JKD say that KM has evolved to the point of being 'bad JKD'. I've heard other arts claim that KM was ripping them off too. I think it's a sign of the success of KM that others are trying to take some credit for influencing it!



If there's one style KM hasn't ripped off, it's JKD. Early KM influences include Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai and Aikido. We're looking into Jiu Jitsu now.

Krav Maga can accurately be accused of taking techniques and concepts from others styles. It can be called "ripping off" with the negative connotation that follows, but then again, it can be called "learning from everyone" just as easily. Krav Maga would be a pretentious system if it claimed to be a leader in practicality and refused to incorporate ideas from other styles just because they weren't "original".


----------



## arnisador (Dec 3, 2005)

Well put! I am in agreement with what you've said.

Is Krav Maga officially adding jujutsu techniques, or do you mean your particular group?


----------



## Loki (Dec 3, 2005)

Hey, I'm splendid to behold! Thanks guys!



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> Is Krav Maga officially adding jujutsu techniques, or do you mean your particular group?



I don't know what I'd call official Krav Maga anymore. We had a guy who came from England and trained in KM there, but he found what we do very different. Now he might have been at a McDojo, but I hear the guys in NYC, who are an official branch of my ogranization are doing a lot of grappling, which is something we care little for.

I think it's my particular ogranization. The Krav Magen grandmaster died almost two years ago, and his successor isn't very popular. I don't think the organizations are communicating as much anymore, so I don't think anyone really represents the "official" Krav Maga. Only time will tell...

As for my recent absence (thanks for checking in, Mike), I've got a lot going on lately, so I haven't been able to keep up with MT, but I'll try to slip a post in here and there. And there's a new video coming up, more of a show-off bit than actual demonstration, but still ;-)


----------



## arnisador (Dec 3, 2005)

Well, good to see you when you have the time!

How many orgs. are there now? What are the big ones?


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Dec 4, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> If there's one style KM hasn't ripped off, it's JKD. Early KM influences include Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai and Aikido. We're looking into Jiu Jitsu now.
> 
> Krav Maga can accurately be accused of taking techniques and concepts from others styles. It can be called "ripping off" with the negative connotation that follows, but then again, it can be called "learning from everyone" just as easily. Krav Maga would be a pretentious system if it claimed to be a leader in practicality and refused to incorporate ideas from other styles just because they weren't "original".


 
I think it's great that KM incorporates so many different techniques. Taught well, it would be among the first choices I would send someone to train in. The boxing that it incorporates is great because it is simply natural for people to fight that way - and the IDF had/has limited time to spend on unarmed techniques so they, IMO, have to rely upon arts that are relatively easy to learn, yet effective. I've studied off and on the American style of KM for the past six years, and with a few exceptions, I like most of their techniques.

It's really great to have an actual Israeli on this KM forum and I really enjoyed watching your clips.


----------



## Loki (Dec 4, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> It's really great to have an actual Israeli on this KM forum and I really enjoyed watching your clips.



Stop, you're making me blush... :uhyeah:

Thanks for all the positive feedback and rep, it's nice to hear.

Arnisador, there are 4 big organizations in Israel, I think all of them have branches abroad, plus another big one in the States.
They are: 

1) Krav Maga International (Kapap): The organization I belong to, known in America as Krav Maga Inc., operates primarily around NYC. Headed by Haim Zut.

2) Krav Magen: Formerly headed by Eli Avikzar until his death in May 2004.

3) Israeli Krav Maga: Headed by Haim Gideon.

4) International Krav Maga Federation: Headed by Eyal Yanilov, operates mainly in Asia and Europe.

5) Krav Maga: American organization based in LA, certifies most of America's Krav Maga instructors. Headed by Darren Levine.

Imi Lichtenfeld's original organization disbanded around 1990 when disputes between todays masters arose.


----------

