# Distance Learning v. Seminars v. Studio/Classes



## Michael Billings (Sep 10, 2003)

Is it just me, or do other people have a problem with the model of how people are learning Kenpo nowdays?

*A few assumptions first:*

1.  There has never been a time when there were more Kenpo Seminars available.   

2.  Generally, Kenpo schools are few and far between (... except when they are not, even Austin, TX has 3 or 4 studios and you should see L.A. or California in general.)

3.  Video and DVD seminars and lessons are more available and of higher quality than ever before.  Certain individuals and organizations offer these as a substitute for live training, hence they are not "reference material" rather the primary medium for learning.

4.  You cannot do good, effective Kenpo without a training partner.

These are not intended to be questions, but rather strong generalizations of the 3 basic modalities of "learning."  There are always combinations of the above, e.g. you go to classes, attend every seminar available, and have an extensive VCR/DVD library of Kenpo.

*You can still answer address this issue.*

Training by yourself, and travelling to seminars is not sufficient to progress in the Art, unless you already have learned "how" to move, i.e. you have gained sufficient rank in Kenpo (Black or Brown) to be able to learn the material, the "whats." 

I have an issue with those who see someone for seminars once or twice a year and consider themselves as that person's student, and worse than that is the remote learning student who does not have to ever see an instructor.  I think most could agree on that. At least the guys who test in-person or get a lesson every now and then have more credence in my eyes. What really irritates me personally, is the student, _and we are all students regardless of rank,_ who has not had what they need to learn Kenpo ... but they think they have, and express it on forums, in opening schools, or in false advertising.  Some just don't know "what they don't know", out of sheer ignorance and from a lack of exposure to good Kenpoists.  

Mr. Conatser did a great article which I reproduced on my website with his permission, *See Here *.   It defines the roles of the Instructor as being a Teacher, a Coach, a Trainer, and as an Innovator.  

I see people trying to go streight to "Innovator" as a result of seminars.  This is not limited to the Cross-Training guys, they are looking elsewhere because someone was either not an Innovator, hence they felt Kenpo was lacking, or their instructor  did not meet the criteria for a "good instructor" and know the System.  Another group of students leave due to their own agendas, set way before we ever meet them.

Does everyone out there get pissed about the amount of "bad Kenpo" right now?  Or is it only me?  My rank reflects my ability in the Art.  I am challenged to step up to the plate every time I go to a lesson or seminar, every time I am in a Black Belt Technique line, every time I do a demo.  It is easy to look good ... it is an entirely separate issue to be good.

Yours in Kenpo


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Sep 10, 2003)

Bingo!  right on!

Now compound the problem of distance learning and variable school quality with rampant politics, lack of standards or standardization, tradition-bound teaching methods and what do you get?  A recipe for trouble is what you get.  This is some of the stuff that motivated me to start trolling these forums and posting obnoxious stuff about promoting people to 11th and 12th degree.  

So what's the answer?  Heck, I don't know.  If I did, I'd promote myself to 12th degree!


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## MartialArtsGuy (Sep 10, 2003)

Yes, it does piss me off that there are so many terrible kenpo teachers and kenpoists.


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## ikenpo (Sep 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Is it just me, or do other people have a problem with the model of how people are learning Kenpo nowdays?
> 
> A few assumptions first:
> ...



I agree with all of your assumptions and think the last is very true




> *Training by yourself, and travelling to seminars is not sufficient to progress in the Art, unless you already have learned "how" to move, i.e. you have gained sufficient rank in Kenpo (Black or Brown) to be able to learn the material, the "whats." *



Is that the students fault or the instructors issue? Instructors are still claiming these people as their students. Even those that have been away from them for years are in good standing just because they received their Black Belts under them (but this may be another issue since they are BBs already). Way back when, didnt you have to do an annual update to maintain your rank within a particular organization?



> *At least the guys who test in-person or get a lesson every now and then have more credence in my eyes. What really irritates me personally, is the student, and we are all students regardless of rank, who has not had what they need to learn Kenpo ... but they think they have, and express it on forums, in opening schools, or in false advertising. Some just don't know "what they don't know", out of sheer ignorance and from a lack of exposure to good Kenpoists. *



I agree, but maybe I think the depth of your irritation stems from the fact that you came up in a different era. Maybe better, certainly harder, where b,s & t were the norm rather than the exception. I think you have a lot of 2nd, 3rd, 4th degrees out there that fall into the above category you speak of. They got their 2nd or 3rd from another system and were bumped up when they joined American Kenpo, or were in a sub-par sub-system and got bumped up without learning the material. And surely, you will find at the root of this problem the root of all evil...



> *I see people trying to go straight to "Innovator" as a result of seminars. This is not limited to the Cross-Training guys, they are looking elsewhere because someone was either not an Innovator, hence they felt Kenpo was lacking, or their instructor did not meet the criteria for a "good instructor" and know the System. Another group of students leave due to their own agendas, set way before we ever meet them.*



I think this paragraph definitely makes certain assumptions about the value of an instructor based on the decisions that a person with free will makes. I dont know that California Kenpo guys put that much stress on these things, or look at it this way, because most were never raised within the old almost feudal Chinese Kenpo structure that you (and I) were brought up in with the handed down, and sometimes made up, traditions that went along with that. In Cali, they know who sucks and just dont associate with them or take them seriously and life goes on. 



> *Does everyone out there get pissed about the amount of "bad Kenpo" right now? Or is it only me? My rank reflects my ability in the Art. I am challenged to step up to the plate every time I go to a lesson or seminar, every time I am in a Black Belt Technique line, every time I do a demo. It is easy to look good ... it is an entirely separate issue to be good.*



When you say bad Kenpo do you mean that you read or that youve seen? I would think in your area (Austin,TX) you are only exposed to your own, Mr. Schroder, Mr. Abedin and Mr. Duffy guys (all credible). Otherwise, you surround yourself with hi quality people like Mr. Sepulveda & Mr. Burks (and before that Mr. Hawkins and his group). Who in your area is teaching bad Kenpo? And what is bad Kenpo (a rhetorical question, I know). There are many systems that are around now, IKCA, BKF, AKKI,OAKKA, AKF and many,many,many others. Additionally, the 24 tech guys are calling the 16 tech guys bad Kenpo, while others are calling all of our stuff bad Kenpo.  So who is really doing "bad Kenpo"? Inquiring minds want to know...

I actually worked out with a guy last week who was schooled in the old NCKKA methods and didnt understand the conceptual box or any of the alignment issues within the more current blocking stucture. I didnt get pissed. I was once there. I felt good about sharing some of the information that Ive been fortunate enough to have conveyed to me.

Just my thoughts, jb:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 11, 2003)

Conceptual box? I guess I am one of those that doesn't understand what that is. Are you talking about... well I don't want to speculate. Anyways at first I took offense to this whole thread but then I remembered back to the vegas camp. I saw a gal do the worst reverse bow I had ever seen in my life, and as a blackbelt she announced she had only started the Martial arts two years prior... well no wonder! I will say that just because a person uses different terms and understands the art in a different way (as obviously I do) that does not mean its "bad Kenpo".
Sean


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## Michael Billings (Sep 11, 2003)

Good point



> _Jason Bugg orig posted_
> *
> I agree, but maybe I think the depth of your irritation stems from the fact that you came up in a different era. Maybe better, certainly harder, where b,s & t were the norm rather than the exception. I think you have a lot of 2nd, 3rd, 4th degrees out there that fall into the above category you speak of. They got their 2nd or 3rd from another system and were bumped up when they joined American Kenpo, or were in a sub-par sub-system and got bumped up without learning the material ...
> 
> *



I honestly had not considered this.  We were always extremely slow promoting with a year per degree of black time in grade, and a year between each brown belt.  That is no longer the case, and I see it frequently.  




> _Jason Bugg orig posted:_
> 
> *When you say bad Kenpo do you mean that you read or that youve seen? I would think in your area (Austin,TX) you are only exposed to your own, Mr. Schroder, Mr. Abedin and Mr. Duffy guys (all credible). Otherwise, you surround yourself with hi quality people like Mr. Sepulveda & Mr. Burks (and before that Mr. Hawkins and his group). Who in your area is teaching bad Kenpo? And what is bad Kenpo (a rhetorical question, I know).
> 
> *



A fair question since I alluded to it early.  You know I have travelled all over the place.  When I say "bad" kenpo, generally I am talking about students who might know the terminology ... or they might not, but regardless of that, they just cannot move well.  Forget quantity of material, 16 v. 24 v.32, except as a function of how long they get to stay in a belt and practice that material.  Forget anything except the amount of time they have been " At the Art", not just in it.  

I am not referring to any of the Austin teachers specifically.  I respect what they all do, although all are bit different from me, and each other.  

My gripe is when I sit on panels testing and do not generally see students "moving"  like they did 10 -15 years ago.  They may be more sophisticated in terms of general knowledge, the watchmaker has taken off, but where is the iron worker?  There are schools, students and instructors who put me and my guys to shame.  Those are whom I chose to learn from.  I can hold my own with most 4ths and 5ths, so I am comfortable where I am.  

But I am concerned about the effect the fragmentation of Kenpo has had on quality control OVER ALL of the Art, not just my instructor is great!    A true lack of knowledge in Brown and Black Belts is what I am talking about i.e. people who know the moves, but don't know how to move (and by the way, there is more than one "correct" way to move IMHO) 

Well, thats it for the night guys, have a good Thursday.  

Respects,
-MB


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## cdhall (Sep 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Is it just me, or do other people have a problem with the model of how people are learning Kenpo nowdays? *



I will chime in on this as I've brought it up in the past regarding "Black Belt Skills" or something like this.  I may address more or other parts of this later (you have been warned   ).

It seems to me that until the mid 1970's or 1980's maybe even, that a "Black Belt" could fight.  Had fought a lot.  Had been in a physical classroom/mat setting where he (or she) took a lot of punnishment and dished it out.  

This can not be transmitted on video.  Hitting and getting hit used to be a significant part of training and being a Black Belt in particular.  Black Belts were respected because, if nothing else, regardless of style, you knew that if you hit one of them they could take it (if you hit them) and they would or could if they chose to, hit you back and hurt you badly.  Unless of course you were  good enough to make them miss.

That is how it seems to me anyway.  I am taller than Sifu Swan but I never had any doubt that he could wipe me out if he chose to even though I have almost never seen him fight.  He has used me for demonstrations though on several occasions.

And now it seems that you can get a Black Belt without getting hit much less hitting someone else, learning how to do that properly and thereby "moving well."

This is a legitimate reason to irriate someone, especially someone who came up like Mr. Billings did as Jason pointed out, under Mr. Duffy who would have sparring classes that ran up to 3hours of continuous fighting and who would have his guys get up at 5am at a Spirit Camp so they could go run and warm up Before the camp started and they had to go run and warm up again.  Nuts.  Mr. Duffy used to have those guys do push-ups in sets of 100.  I have also seen and heard of belt tests where students threw up before it was over and/or suffered heat exhaustion and dehydration.  Maybe that was his signal that your test was over.  I almost passed out on my last test but endurance is my particular weakness.   If you were on of Mr. Duffy's students in the 70s and 80s, you could hit and get hit and you had endurance.

When I was with Mr. Swan I was scared of Mr. Duffy and his crazy students.  I later went with Mr. Duffy because he had become a student of Mr. Parker and it seemed like he mellowed a bit.  And of course I knew he coud hit and get hit and that he also had already started the same Quest I was interested in myself which was investigating Mr. Parker's system as directly as possible.

At any rate I think this is the issue that is driving Mr. Billings' comments.  When he came up, hitting and getting hit were Primary considerations of training but now with Video and Distance learning you can go from Zero to Black Belt without ever getting hit.

I think Mr. Duffy reminded someone of this last week.  I think he said this to a student but I was not there "This is a Martial Arts class.  There will be some contact.  Expect to get hit."

And as Mr. LaBounty likes to say "This is a MARTIAL Art."

As far as Bad Kenpo and moving well.  I have to say that when I see (or feel) Mr. Speakman explode on me or someone else it is scary.  He is doing stuff that we don't practice.  But it very similar.  So I like going to his seminars for this reason.  I don't know if this means that I am Bad.  I think it means that Mr. Speakman is good. Mr. Sepulveda impressed me like this as well recently so I would think that, as their reputations would have you believe, they are both "good."

Having come from a Chinese Kenpo system to EPAK I was at least subconsciously interested in the difference between "good and bad" Kenpo and if there was a way to do it "Right" or "Better" and how much differently I had to do my Kenpo in order for me to get there.

So while I think you Can Not substitute hitting and getting hit by video learning, I think you can learn how to "move well" by getting correct information from videos and that you can also test this by going to seminars or trying that stuff in class and even at tournaments to some degree.

I do not think however that a "video Black Belt" can be considered the same as a Black Belt trained in a studio on a mat because of this gulf created by the lack of physical contact.

I guess Mr. Parker has also already addressed at least part of this question for us.  "To feel is to believe."  You can Not feel anything via video instruction. 

My humble, if very lengthy, opinon.  Or at least part of it.


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## Kalicombat (Sep 11, 2003)

Im going to chime in on this only because I can attest to the following: Being a distant student, being a video student, traveling all over the place for seminars, being a classroom student, and in my opinion more importantly, being a student of my own experience.

I have earned a blackbelt in an off shoot kenpo system via video correspondence, and while it is not EPAK, nor is it an optimum medium for training, it worked for me. Ive also earned blackbelts in other martial arts through traditional school settings. I have attended martial arts classes for most of my life from age 10 on. Currently, I am a garage student. I train in my garage, teach the occasional co worker or brother-in-law when the mood strikes them, and while this is not optimum either, its all I got right now. I know the EPAK material up to my current rank of purple, and am working on the blue material as an on going work in progress. 

I will admit that lately, EPAK has become somewhat tiresome. Not because of the material, but because of the Kenpo-snobs I have encountered. My kenpo may not be as aesthetic as it should be, but I have the time in to prove that it works. I used to be one of the people that most martial arts students are training to defend against. Alcohol, immaturity, and a chip on my shoulder for along time are my feabile attempts at an excuse for that behavior. Fortunately they are all in the past, and I train for one reason, to end a threat. I'm not interested in anyones opinion of me, my kenpo prowess, or my kenpo jargon knowledge, however, I do value JBUGGS opinion, and consider him a friend.  I've encoutered many kenpo blackbelts through the years, and if most of them had one one hundredth of Jasons skill, passion, and love for kenpo, they would be alright in my book. The fact is, alot of them dont. 

Mr. Billings, its absurd that you get pissed when you see bad kenpo. It's all about availability, experience, finances, etc... You cant pass judgement on the kenpo population as a whole compared to your personal experiences. In closing, I have known alot of people that have never heard of EPAK, would not know how to put on a belt to save their lives, but have been there, done that, and have the scars and convictions to prove it. They would walk through alot of the blackbelts that I have seen at tournaments and seminars. If they couldnt walk their way through, they hack through with a blade, busted beer bottle, etc...

Just some observations,
Gary Catherman


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## Doc (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Is it just me, or do other people have a problem with the model of how people are learning Kenpo nowdays?
> 
> A few assumptions first:
> ...



Now you know I with you Dog!


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## Sigung86 (Sep 15, 2003)

Another Dog chiming in... I'm with you and the Good Doc.

BTW... Frankly, many modern Kenpo instructors have never had a punch thrown at them in anger, and most, if not all of their fighting skills are taken from the sparring mat to the training mats.


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## Michael Billings (Sep 15, 2003)

Sorry for the delayed reply.

What pisses me off is not when I see students out there busting their humps trying to learn, whatever the style.  That is why you don't see me slamming other Arts.  The irritation is with the instructors of the Arts who promote this way. 

I was not saying anything about your Kenpo ... you took affront where none was intended.  None the less you responded defensively.  WHY?  Do you have concerns about how you developed in Kenpo?  Doug pretty much sums up how I and a lot of the older Kenpo guys came up in the Art.  It has nothing to do with tournaments or how you perceive "Kenpo Black Belts" ... or maybe it does.  You bring up the very thing I object to, i.e.:



> _Orig posted by Kalicombat_
> 
> *You cant pass judgement on the kenpo population as a whole compared to your personal experiences. In closing, I have known alot of people that have never heard of EPAK, would not know how to put on a belt to save their lives, but have been there, done that, and have the scars and convictions to prove it. They would walk through alot of the blackbelts that I have seen at tournaments and seminars. If they couldnt walk their way through, they hack through with a blade, busted beer bottle, etc...*



That is exactly my point!  "alot of the blackbelts that I have seen at tournaments and seminars ...."  you have known people that could walk through them, or hack through them.

I have a problem with this perception, basically because to some extent, I share it. 

Passing judgement is really my job, and I do not like to take my job home with me, or to my school or to other people's schools, tournaments, or seminars.  But sometimes I get concerned about what other's perceive as "good kenpo."

You passed judgement on those black belts you think you know people can "walk through" ... and you know?  I believe you.  That is the sad thing.

-MB


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## Doc (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> * ... What pisses me off is not when I see students out there busting their humps trying to learn, whatever the style.  That is why you don't see me slamming other Arts.  The irritation is with the instructors of the Arts who promote this way...
> 
> But sometimes I get concerned about what other's perceive as "good kenpo."
> -MB *



Anyone who has followed my posts over the years know I agree with you totally and have been very vocal about this. It's always the instructors responsibility, which tends to be "influenced" by a variety of factors.

Sadly many of them really think they know something. You can usually tell them because they become offended when you point certain things out and will defend their positions rather than ask questions while suggesting that you are "demeaning" them and what they do.

"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail." - Ed Parker


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## Nightingale (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> "When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail." - Ed Parker [/B]



Ed Parker may have said this, but psychologist Abraham Maslow said it first.  its quoted on the inside cover of my curriculum textbook for school.  great quote, tho. applies across the board.


:asian:


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## Doc (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nightingale _
> *Ed Parker may have said this, but psychologist Abraham Maslow said it first.  its quoted on the inside cover of my curriculum textbook for school.  great quote, tho. applies across the board.
> 
> 
> :asian: *


I knew it wasn't his originally, but he said it to me so ......


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## Nightingale (Sep 15, 2003)

hehe. I guess that works.

:asian:


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## ikenpo (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Anyone who has followed my posts over the years know I agree with you totally and have been very vocal about this. It's always the instructors responsibility, which tends to be "influenced" by a variety of factors.
> 
> Sadly many of them really think they know something. You can usually tell them because they become offended when you point certain things out and will defend their positions rather than ask questions while suggesting that you are "demeaning" them and what they do.
> ...



Well,

I certainly don't want this thread to get into a pissing contest between young and old...somebody's prostate might start acting up.  

Doc, I agree that you have said much of the same thing for years. The difference is that you've said it about "everybody", everybody who is doing "Motion Kenpo".  Gary is a BTDT kind of guy, much like yourself and not real big on the diplomacy thing, much like yourself. He'll say what he feels, much like yourself. 

I recognize what Mr. Billings is talking about, but to me it is a non-issue. We had the same discussion with Chief Roman selling belts and Mr. Spry putting on a 10th when he was a 3rd under one of Mr. White's 5th's...There is crap going on in every system that is shady and since we don't have a "cleaning crew" why replace it with a bunch of people bitchin about it? What good can come of that? Why not go introduce yourself and invite them over to train? Sounds crazy I know, most Kenpo folks don't even speak to people in tournaments from other schools...

To Mr. Farmer's comment...



> *BTW... Frankly, many modern Kenpo instructors have never had a punch thrown at them in anger, and most, if not all of their fighting skills are taken from the sparring mat to the training mats.*



I could write a disertation on these comments alone, but I'll just add to the issue...

I'm not sure what other people are doing, but generally (based on my experience) I haven't seen Kenpo people use a lot of emotion while executing their techniques either, other than their wide mouthed kiai that is taking away from their power and their big circular arm cover outs that are often a waste of energy and appliable motion. They're too busy trying to look pretty. For some it is truly a lost cause...

jb:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nightingale & Doc_
> 
> *"When the only tool you own is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail."*
> 
> ...



Just goes to prove what his degree was in at Brigham Young ....  B.S. in Sociology and Psychology, with a minor in Political Science.  And you wonder that he quotes Maslow?

-MB


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## Sigung86 (Sep 16, 2003)

Just a small clarification here ... Before we so quaintly decided to "Americanize" him ... The man's original last name was "Maslov".  

I'd better go now before my prostate enlarges.  Er ... No pun intended.  :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Nightingale (Sep 16, 2003)

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/maslow.html

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/maslow.html

http://www.politicalscience.utoledo.edu/faculty/davis/maslow.htm

hmm.... only time I ever found his name listed as "Maslov" it was a typo on another site...???

were you thinking of Pavlov?


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## cdhall (Sep 16, 2003)

I'm almost entirely certain that we are now off topic.

I just wanted to say something before a Moderator did and Brian Hunter logged back in to quit over it.
:rofl:


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## MartialArtsGuy (Sep 16, 2003)

Back on topic now

JBKENPO

I have been saying that forever. Too much prettyness, no intent, too fast to work, plain unrealistic body mechanics, silly sound effects. I agree with Doc and you.

I feel there are alot of ineffective interpretations of kenpo out there.

That is why a good insrtuctor is so important. A video is not going to be able to show you an effective application of something conceptual. Well I guess the guy on the video could, but if you dont understand how the technique was made effective, you'll need some one physically there to help you.

The real sad thing is that there are alot of kenpoists out there with an instructor and they still learn a bad interpretation.


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## cdhall (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> *The real sad thing is that there are alot of kenpoists out there with an instructor and they still learn a bad interpretation. *



You have reminded me how old this debate is.

This is the Same debate as to whether or not you can learn from the manuals without an instructor.

I think video is far superior to a written technique manual/description.  But the same issues apply.  No matter what it looks like or how it sounds, you can not FULLY understand what is going on without Feeling it.


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> No matter what it looks like or how it sounds, you can not FULLY understand what is going on without Feeling it.
> *



Hmmmmmmmm, seems to me "someone" said...."To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, but to feel......... is to BELIEVE".

Now let me think,..... who was that.... tapping fingers on head and looking up towards the ceiling pondering......

:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I'm almost entirely certain that we are now off topic.
> 
> I just wanted to say something before a Moderator did and Brian Hunter logged back in to quit over it.
> :rofl: *




 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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