# Po Bak Sool



## Paul B (Jun 25, 2005)

Is this a part of your curriculum?

What are the most common attacks you defend from?

Do you follow the retracting limb in on tying or keep the limb outstretched?

I am trying to dig deeper into this aspect of Hapkido. I know that some Hapkidoin don't have Po Bak Sool in their curriculum,and some have a ton of material. 

Also...if you could point me to some videos or clips,I would much appreciate it. Thanks.


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## American HKD (Jun 27, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Is this a part of your curriculum?
> 
> What are the most common attacks you defend from?
> 
> ...


Greetings,

Most flexable weapons skills are not so much for join locks buts rather blocking, striking, choking, tying in the sense of imbobilizatrion of a limb etc. and when there's a chance a lock maybe?

That goes for, cane, rope, dan bong, staff as well.

All the weapons in HKD are blocking and striking FIRST the rest is if possible.

However due to demos and such people get the wrong ideas in the use of HKD weapons.


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## Paul B (Jun 27, 2005)

Thank you very much Mst. Stuart.


I practice flexible weapons in the way you described. Against kicks and strikes mainly. I haven't seen too much by way of grabs,though.

I am sorry if I made it sound as though I go for joint locks..I was merely refering to the method of going in for the immobilization. 

Funny enough..the Po Bak Sool we practice usually involves immobilizations then a choke executed at the end of the technique to kind of "kick 'em when they're down". Good stuff.

Do you know of any sources I could find for more info on different approaches? Thanks.


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## American HKD (Jun 28, 2005)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Thank you very much Mst. Stuart.
> 
> 
> I practice flexible weapons in the way you described. Against kicks and strikes mainly. I haven't seen too much by way of grabs,though.
> ...


Greetings

There's not much written about it in HKD mainly because it's not that comprehensive. Hapkido's main weapons are cane & dan bong, all of the rest of the weapon are mainly basic knowledge with a additional tech.

Check out Bujinkan Tai Jutsu, they're the best source around for realistic use of any type of belt, rope, chain, etc.


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## sksk (Jun 29, 2005)

"Check out Bujinkan Tai Jutsu, they're the best source around for realistic use of any type of belt, rope, chain, etc"

Another avenue of study you may want to look into for flexible weapons are the indonesian arts. they usually use a sarong, you can check out mande muda or Sifu Ron Balicki's dvd set from cold steel.

Hope this helps

George


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## JanneM (Jun 29, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Hapkido's main weapons are cane & dan bong,


Where do you think cane and dan bong came to hapkido? 
Who introduced them to hapkido world and how those wepons became the essense of hapkido wepons?

Choi Yong Sul never teached use of any wepons. Only defence against knife. So I have heard. Taekkyon never had any wopons in it...

Does anyone have any facts about this or eaven a strong fealing of where those might have come to hapkido?


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## iron_ox (Jun 29, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> Choi Yong Sul never teached use of any wepons.




Hello Janne,

This is not strictly true.  Dojunim Choi taught several weapons.  If you are ever in Chicago, drop by and we would be more than happy to show you some of the original material from Dojunim Choi.  Kind of hard to teach this from a keyboard, if you know what I mean... :uhyeah: 

Have a nice day.


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## sksk (Jun 29, 2005)

Hi Kevin,

I know Chris Lacava, have done some training with him, Doe's the jung ki kwan teach knife or mid length staff (3ft to 4ft). Chris wasn't sure when i asked just curious.

Thank you for your time.


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## JanneM (Jun 29, 2005)

Thanks for your reply Kevin.

Because I wasn't sure of that fact I added that "so I have heard" part in there. I'm very new in hapki arts you know.

Unfortunetly I don't believe that I am coming to Chicago because i live in Finland.

What wepons Choi dojunim teached and on what level?


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 29, 2005)

According to GM Lim, Hyun Soo, (9th Dan from DJN Choi), Doju Nim Choi taught 5 weapons:

*First,* there is the protection from the short knife (Dando Sool). 

*Second*, The short stick (Dan Bong Sool)

*Third*, The cane, (a kind of Jipangi or Umbrella Sool). 
In this method there are 5~6 techniques.

*Fourth*, How to destroy the enemy who attacks with weaponry such as long knife, bottle or sickle.  

This is from the interview I did with him in 2004 in Korea.

Feel free to e-mail me directly if you have any other questions.
hkdtodd@ttlc.net


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## Paul B (Jun 29, 2005)

I see...so I take it the rope/belt is definitely not a part of the Jung Ki Kwan curriculum,yes?

So where did it come from? And who else has it?

So far as I can find these styles include Po Bak Sool..Jin Jung Kwan,Sin Moo,WHF/Yon Mu Kwan,Jin Pal.... Is this one of the "additional weapons"? 

I think it's odd that it's even a part of KSW and HRD..although this could be attributed to the "early days".


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## American HKD (Jun 30, 2005)

Greetings


Ji Han Jae is responsible for the following:

Cane 
Rope
Long pole
sword
Stone & Knife throwing


Choi may have had these weapons already?

Dan Bong
Some say knike or long knife


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 30, 2005)

Asd I said before Doju Nim Choi was the first to teach the Cane, Dab Bong, Knife throwing in Hapkido.  I am sure that GM Ji could have expounded on these.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in Hapkido anything can be used as a weapon such as a pen, labtop, coffee cup, belt buckle and so on and so on.  After many years of training the experienced will use what is available.

www.millersmudo.com

Take care


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## sksk (Jun 30, 2005)

Master Todd, just wanted to know what weapons do you and the majority of Jung ki instructers teach in the regular curriculm. Are dojangs allowed to deviate in any way or are their more strict parameters about what should be taught.

Thank you in advance

George chaber


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 30, 2005)

sksk said:
			
		

> Master Todd, just wanted to know what weapons do you and the majority of Jung ki instructers teach in the regular curriculm. Are dojangs allowed to deviate in any way or are their more strict parameters about what should be taught.
> 
> Thank you in advance
> 
> George chaber



Dear George,

I cannot speak for anyone but what I do at my Dojang here in Dover, NH.

The Jungki weapons techniques are not taught generally under Black belt.  2nd Dan is where weapons training begins, with knife defense.  I do however teach some weapons on occasion when asked to at seminars.

The only thing I do is if I teach a technique that I know did not come from DJN Choi I let everyone know that it is not original Hapkido.

www.millersmudo.com

Take care


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## Mike-IHF (Jun 30, 2005)

> I see...so I take it the rope/belt is definitely not a part of the Jung Ki Kwan curriculum,yes?
> 
> So where did it come from? And who else has it?
> 
> ...


Paul,
We have alot of techniques with rope(belt) actually not alot maybe somewhere in the range of 10-20. We also use cane techniques, but we use an original straight cane not the curved cane. I have a video on disc from a demonstration done in Korea in 1991. When I have time I will make a copy of it and send it to you. I'll send you a PM, or e-mail and you can give me your address. Or if you want to wait for a long download I can send it to you via msn messenger, but it will take a few hours because it's a big file. Also you need to keep in mind alot of the techniques done in the video are for demonstration purposes only, and not exactly how we really execute the techniques. Let me know take care.


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## Mike-IHF (Jun 30, 2005)

> The only thing I do is if I teach a technique that I know did not come from DJN Choi I let everyone know that it is not original Hapkido.


No offense but how do you KNOW for sure what came from Choi. You can only go buy what GM Lim has said, nothing more.


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## JanneM (Jun 30, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> No offense but how do you KNOW for sure what came from Choi. You can only go buy what GM Lim has said, nothing more.


What reason he would have to doubt his masters words?

Do you have some fact that makes any of us question Lim dojunims words?


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## Mike-IHF (Jun 30, 2005)

JanneM,


No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that mostly everyone goes by what their master/instructor tells them as truth, it does not mean that it is Fact. There is a difference. Yes GM Lim may say that Choi only taught this, but I garantee GM Kim says something different, and so on, and so on. All I'm trying to say is that no one should make a comment like
The only thing I do is if I teach a technique that I know did not come from DJN Choi I let everyone know that it is not original Hapkido. 

Just is not right. I've said it before, and I'll say it again "no one holds the holy grail of Choi's teachings". what alot of people forget is that GM Kim, and GM Lim started training under Choi in the late 60's early 70's. And because of that fact, Choi might not have taught the same weapon material he did when he first started teaching in Korea. Due to influences of his early students, or possibly cultural differences after living in Japan for 30 years some things might have chnged.


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## shesulsa (Jun 30, 2005)

_*Mod. Note. 

  Please, return to the original topic.

 For discussion on Hapkido origins, please reference this thread.

  -Shesulsa
  -MT Senior Moderator-*_


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## American HKD (Jun 30, 2005)

sksk said:
			
		

> "Check out Bujinkan Tai Jutsu, they're the best source around for realistic use of any type of belt, rope, chain, etc"
> 
> Another avenue of study you may want to look into for flexible weapons are the indonesian arts. they usually use a sarong, you can check out mande muda or Sifu Ron Balicki's dvd set from cold steel.
> 
> ...


I have seen the sarong in action I think it's a little less practicle and would need alot of more adaptation, than the belt work of HKD or Kusari Fundo.


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## Paul B (Jun 30, 2005)

Maybe I should have made this thread a Yes/No poll?  :lol:


Thanks Mike..I'll take you up on that...hmmm..that reminds me. :wink2:

Thank you very much for your replies everyone.


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## sksk (Jun 30, 2005)

Stuart, i do agree with you to a point with the use of the sarong, because of the the way it's structured (in a loop) but, from what i have seen of most flexible weaponary. Their is more  things similar than different particularly, when it comes to leverage or locking up the person. Needless to say in todays society flexible weapons are a great thing to learn.

thanks for the discussion
george

please pardon my horrible spelling


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## zac_duncan (Jul 1, 2005)

Paul, we have rope techs... they're very similar to the empty hand techniques.

In essence, our method of capturing is to have one hand beolw the incoming limb and while one hand "punches" over the incoming limb and circles downward while still fully extended. From what I've seen, KSW does it differently, with more of a "looping" two handed motion.

In our method, you'd want to enter as deeply as you can because when you've got to have your circling motion completing as your opponent's limb is retracting. A lot of the techniques kind of count on the opponent retracting their limb after the strike. 

In contrast, the other method seems to use the "looping" motion to force the opponent to overcommit and not retract the limb immmediately.


I've got not videos of pics, sorry. But the rope/belt is one of my favorite weapons, so I can try to explain better if this doesn't make sense. Hope this helps.

-zac


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 1, 2005)

> Just is not right. I've said it before, and I'll say it again "no one holds the holy grail of Choi's teachings". what alot of people forget is that GM Kim, and GM Lim started training under Choi in the late 60's early 70's. And because of that fact, Choi might not have taught the same weapon material he did when he first started teaching in Korea. Due to influences of his early students, or possibly cultural differences after living in Japan for 30 years some things might have chnged.



All I know is this is what GM Lim and ALL the other students of DJN Choi that train at the Jungki Kwan have said the same thing about the weapons that DJN Choi taught.  GM Lim was DJN Choi's longest running student so I would tend to believe him before I would believe some others!

Mike:

So what weapons do you Aikido guys use?

 :asian:


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## Mike-IHF (Jul 2, 2005)

> So what weapons do you Aikido guys use?


Master Miller,

Very funny! I think it is about time for people to realise the truth, and stop with the assumptions. We had a long discussion with GM Chang regarding his training at our last seminar. He was only with Myung Jae-Nam for a few years, and only because his original instructors Ji Han-Jae, and Bong Soo-Han left Korea to come to the U.S. GM Chang neede to be under someone, so he could acheive his Master rankings and be able to open his own school, which he did in 1968. I have already stated that we do have a little Aikido flavor, but GM Chang has stuck very strictly to what he learned from Ji, and Han. 

We use the same weapons, and weapons defense as most other people with minor differences. We do knife defense, gun defense, we have some techniques using the rope/belt. We use cane techniques, but we use a straight walking stick because originally thats what a cane in asia was. The curved cane from what I was told was added by Ji. If you remember Takeda supposidly carried a straight walking stick, Humm? we don't use the short stick we use the handle of the sword, for what I have been told is where the short stick came from. But the main weapons we use are the sword, and staff since that is where all the empty hand techniques come from, just like in Aikijujutsu Humm?. interesting UH! 

Lastly, I understand Lim was Choi's longest student. But that has nothing to do with weapons that Choi might have taught after hi return from Japan. Lim can only go by what Choi was teaching in the late 60's, 70's, and 80's before he passed. My problem with your post is that you basically said that if you teach a technique that does not come from Lim, then it's not authentic Hapkido. By saying that you are underminding GM Kim, Ji, Rim, etc. I don't think that is very Mudo, or respectful to other Hapkido practitioners. Correct?


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 2, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Master Miller,
> 
> Very funny! I think it is about time for people to realise the truth, and stop with the assumptions. We had a long discussion with GM Chang regarding his training at our last seminar. He was only with Myung Jae-Nam for a few years, and only because his original instructors Ji Han-Jae, and Bong Soo-Han left Korea to come to the U.S. GM Chang neede to be under someone, so he could acheive his Master rankings and be able to open his own school, which he did in 1968. I have already stated that we do have a little Aikido flavor, but GM Chang has stuck very strictly to what he learned from Ji, and Han.
> 
> ...




Mr Merchant,

GM Lim is not the only person that was with DJN Choi that has coroborated the weapons that are in DJN Choi's original Hapkido system.  Grandmaster Chae, Hung Jun started studying with DJN Choi in 1949 as I understand it.  This is well before GM Ji and most others and he says the same thing.

It is also my understanding that DJN Choi taught the curved cane as at one time he used it due to injury or age.  The material that GM Bong and GM Ji teach is only based on DJN Choi's material.  This does takes nothing away from what they have taught and teach.

As far as the Dan Bong goes you are correct it originally came from the short Kumdo stick or short sword.  

As far as what is considered authentic Hapkido, that would depend on who you ask!  I have always believed that original/orthodox Hapkido is from DJN Choi.  My only point about what you guys do is that it sounds very much like authentic Aikido with a Hapkido flavor and that is not a bad thing at all.  I am sure in your branch you guys do some things that are unique to you.  GM Lim is not the only one that teaches DJN Choi's style of Hapkido.  I like how GM Lim puts it we practice and teach DJN Choi's orthodox Hapkido nothing more nothing less.  What some others have done is to add and take some things away from the original Art.

Again no ill will toward you I am just trying to clarify some things.

I hope we can get together and do some training because it is so hard to get a feel for a person on the net.  If you are ever up in  our neck of the woods please give me a shout and we can hook up for training and some food. :asian: 

Take care,


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## Mike-IHF (Jul 3, 2005)

Master Miller,


Thanks for the reply. I too do not have ill feelings to toward you as a person. I'm not like that at all. I enjoy discussing things with anyone, from different organizations etc. After all that's what Hap is all about. The main issues, which I believe to be writing problems, is that alot of times your post come off very egotistical, and sound underminding to other practitioners of Hapkido. Regardless of who it is Ji, Han, Chang, Lim, Kim etc etc. these are very great individuals of the art. Ofcourse there will always be differences between what one person teaches compared to another, that's a given. However I cannot say what words you use to discribe the teachings of GM Lim. I personally have issues with the terms authentic, and mostly Orthodox which comes from Greek to mean (straight thinking) and is usually only used regarding religion, not martial arts. I just think that term reflects a egoistical view of yourself, and your organization. I'm sure GM Lim is a great teacher of Hapkido. As I have practiced a little with Master D'Aloia, and I have seen some video of the Jung Ki Kwan. All I'm trying to convey is that we are all in this together. Remember what Choi always talked about "to unite Hapkido" and he said this knowing that people were teaching different ways.

Regarding us. I can only go by what GM Chang told me to be truth. If he said he only studied under Myung for organizational reasons to be able to open a school, then I believe him. He himself has never trained in Aikido. He only teaches what he learned from Ji, Han, and Myung. And Myung was not purely Aikido either. GM Chang was with him way before Hankido was developed, and the majority of Aikido material was added into what Myung taught. All of GM Chang's certificates are Hapkido certificates, including his 1st and 2nd Dan under Ji that were signed by Choi. The only exception would be the few years he was under Myungs "Han Kuk Hapkisool Hoi" organization. These not only had Myung's signature, but also bore the name of Ueshiba. His 7th Dan in 1978 is a KHF certificate. So you see it does not make since for anyone to say we teach Aikido. Hapkido-Aikido mix, maybe. Anyway to make this short. Thank you for your invite, if I make it to that area I would like very much to train with you. Again my issues are not with you as a person, I just get a little angry at the language, and words you use to discribe what you teach. Thanks again.


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 3, 2005)

> I personally have issues with the terms authentic, and mostly Orthodox which comes from Greek to mean (straight thinking) and is usually only used regarding religion, not martial arts. I just think that term reflects a egoistical view of yourself, and your organization. I'm sure GM Lim is a great teacher of Hapkido. As I have practiced a little with Master D'Aloia, and I have seen some video of the Jung Ki Kwan. All I'm trying to convey is that we are all in this together. Remember what Choi always talked about "to unite Hapkido" and he said this knowing that people were teaching different ways.



The term orthodox is how GM Lim describes what he teaches.  It is DJN Choi's orthodox Hapkido.  Please dont read anything into that other than what is there.  GM Lim trained directly with Founder Choi longer than any other so if anyone could use the term orthodox it would be him but I have never herd GM Lim put down anyone.  This does not mean that other students of DJN Choi do not teach Hapkido only that most only learned from DJN Choi for short periods of time.

Everybody is passionate about our art Hapkido.  You and I are no different.  My goal is to repectfully share the material that I have learned and train hard every day.  I think it is very interesting that ALL the old Masters and GM say pretty much the same thing "More training and less talking".  I agree that these discussions are important to educate and give people choices as to what kind of training they would like to recieve.

Again good stuff. :asian:


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## howard (Jul 3, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> ...I personally have issues with the terms authentic, and mostly Orthodox which comes from Greek to mean (straight thinking) and is usually only used regarding religion, not martial arts. I just think that term reflects a egoistical view of... your organization...


 Hi Mike,

 If I might try to suggest an interpretation of the use of "orthodox" on the covers to the Jungkikwan videos... I think that all they're trying to say is that Jungki Hapkido is based on what Choi taught GM Lim... nothing more.  I don't believe that there is any judgment of any other Hapkido kwan inherent in the word.  Please try to understand, GM Lim simply is not like that... all he says is that he teaches exactly as he was taught.  He does not say that Jungki Hapkido is superior to any other style because it is "orthodox", nor for any other reason...

 I hope that one day you will have a chance to meet GM Lim, because you'll see that he is really a very humble gentleman who only tries to perpetuate the art that he learned from his teacher.

 Best regards, Howard


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## shesulsa (Jul 3, 2005)

Gentlemen, there has been MUCH discussion on Choi, Jae, other Hapkido greats and lineage in the Korean forums, and I strongly encourage you to seek those threads out to revive that conversation.

  You will find I'm little more tolerant today than I have been in allowing topic sway to this never-ending discussion.

  Please take a moment to reference the originating post in this thread and continue the intended discussion.

  Thank you,

  Georgia Ketchmark / shesulsa
  MT Senior Moderator


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