# what is your favourite throw in ninjutsu?



## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 1, 2010)

What is your favourite throw in ninjutsu? particularly from the Naga Waza.
mine is the te makura (hand pillow) when you trap the arm and fall on your back while your apponent lands face first on the ground. I love this throw even if it is actually a sacrifice throw I found it easy to execute and you can get alot of power if you bend the legs when falling and use your body weight.

The second would be the osoto gata were you hook the leg to throw them down. it is simple and works and I have used it in real life self defence so I know it works.

uchimata uchigake (inside the thigh reap) is a nice one too but im not to confident to use this one as much as osoto gata.


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## Tez3 (Nov 1, 2010)

I know nothing about Ninjutsu so this is a newbies question lol. Are the throws the same as those named in Judo? Is your Osoto Gata the same as Judo's Osoto Gake?


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 1, 2010)

I'd go with ganseki otoshi. The ganseki throws are alot more versatile than temakura. Temakura is nice, but less reliable, and if it goes wrong your exit strategies are less favourable than with ganseki. Ganseki otoshi i prefer over ganseki nage or or ganseki ori because it is fastest, and still allows for either of the other ganseki should you encounter resistance. Apart from that, it can be executed while wearing heavy bodyarmour (try that with temakura...) and it packs one hell of a punch since you basicly slam your opponent face down in the ground, with you on top of him. It impacts alot harder than temakura. Osoto is nice since it is easy to apply and can be used in defense situations fairly easily. Still, perfectly executed this one too is dangerous.

If I'm not mistaken, you're a new student with Chris P. I'm a bit surprised you start out with temakura so soon in your ninpo career, personally I still find it rather tricky to perform a proper temakura. But than again, temakura could just be my achilles heel for all i know . 

Oh and tezz, similar, not the same. Even within the different ryuha that make up the X-kan ninpo are slight differences in those few throws that are common. Without going into specifics: take 'Osoto', also known as 'sotowa' or 'osoto gari' in judo, the way you handle your opponent and especially the kuzushi will differ greatly between the ryuha. Sometimes a similar name will be a very different technique in other ryuha! The academic demands of ninpo are often underestimated. 

Guess i'll leave it at this and pass the ball to Chris


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## WesternCiv (Nov 1, 2010)

Ohsoto or ganseki nage.

Simple, effective.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 1, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I know nothing about Ninjutsu so this is a newbies question lol. Are the throws the same as those named in Judo? Is your Osoto Gata the same as Judo's Osoto Gake?



I am still new to ninjutsu but from what I understand the name is the same but the technique and method of getting to it is different. you got to remember judo is more of a sport and ninjutsu is a combat art. so while the throw may be the same the ninjutsu will have a strike to soften them before the throw or is used after a technique if the person is resisting and you wanna use thier strength againts them. also ninjutsu teaches alot of variation of the same technique.

yes Kajowaraku I am a student of sensei parker. 
I think what he teaches the advanced stuff to the class because the class is mixed with black belts aswell. and he shows the technique from the ninjutsu ryu scroll so if it is in the scroll it will be shown. even the so called secret teachings of the ryu. 

yes I like the ganseki nage throw aswell you can really throw them hard with this thanks to the body mechanics. it is more than powerful enough to stop an attacker just from the impact of the fall and is more damaging than the osoto gata that just throws them of balance. my only gripe with the ganseki nage for me is that you have to face your back to your attacker. If you are fast and know what you are doing this wouldn't matter as much.

can I ask what line of work you are in Kajowaraku that requires you to use bodyarmor?


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## Tanaka (Nov 1, 2010)

If i'm not mistaken... isn't takamatsu-den arts mixed?
How do you know if it's Ninjutsu throw or a Jujutsu throw?


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 1, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> What is your favourite throw in ninjutsu? particularly from the Naga Waza.
> mine is the te makura (hand pillow) when you trap the arm and fall on your back while your apponent lands face first on the ground. I love this throw even if it is actually a sacrifice throw I found it easy to execute and you can get alot of power if you bend the legs when falling and use your body weight.
> 
> The second would be the osoto gata were you hook the leg to throw them down. it is simple and works and I have used it in real life self defence so I know it works.
> ...




I would love to learn that first throw.  How is it done?


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 2, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> If i'm not mistaken... isn't takamatsu-den arts mixed?
> How do you know if it's Ninjutsu throw or a Jujutsu throw?



As I understand it Takamatsu Sensai had studied other martial arts as well as ninjutsu. when he wrote the book of heaven earth and man it was a collaboration of the different martial arts as well as ninjutsu, how much of it came from ninjutsu Im not sure.

the te makura is just like I described earlier, basicly you lock the arm of the opponent. one hand grabs the wrist the other goes around the the top arm with the opponents arm extended straight out and standing parallel and then drop to the ground. you will land on your back and opponent falls forword and may land with the head hitting the hand thus it is called te makura or hand pillow


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## Chris Parker (Nov 2, 2010)

Kajowaraku, to give some context, a week or so ago I taught a workshop on the throws of the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, covering the entire Nage Gata section (Ganseki Nage, Harai Goshi, Gyaku Nage, Taki Otoshi, Osoto Gake, Uchimata Uchigake, Hane Goshi Nage, Itami Nage, Tomoe Nage, Tachi Nagare, Yoko Nagare, Te Makura, and Kuruma Nage) in a very basic form, as an introduction to throwing for most of the group. So everyone was taken through them, although not to a very fine amount of detail, but more than enough for them to get a good "feel" for the skills. I was rather impressed with the way they went, actually.

Tanaka, the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki was said to be written by Takamatsu as an expression of what he felt was most important in his expression of Ninjutsu, as the greatest expression of Budo (in his opinion). There was another version written by Hatsumi as well. In terms of whether or not the throws are "ninjutsu" or "jujutsu", mechanically they're about the same, the difference comes in the approach and application, essentially the "feel" of the techniques. Ideally the throws should be done in a way that makes it hard to fall safely from.

In terms of favourites, well, uh, no. Hatsumi once said that when asked what his favourite technique is, he answers "Why, are you wanting to kill me?" For a sportsman, it's fine to discuss favourites, as the stakes are limited if others figure out a defence. But if the training and aim is survival in life and death conflict, why would you tell someone what your favourite technique is, and allow them to figure a way to defeat it? I jokingly said, what, two or three of the throws were my "absolute favourites" at the workshop.... my actual ones are others.

Bluewaveschool, here is Te Makura (Hand Pillow):

[yt]gn7Tydxqyok[/yt]


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 2, 2010)

That has very smooth flow to it, very nice.  Once the attacker was on the ground, for a brief moment the defender placed a knee on the shoulder.  Do you ever place the knee onto the back of the elbow instead?  Just rolling a little pressure onto it shoots fire straight into your brain.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 2, 2010)

Well, that's not me, so you know. Just a version I found on youtube, really. In terms of the throw, it ends with the opponent face down, and you on your back. The rest is one possible pin/lock and escape (I haven't taken the guys through those yet... maybe a little down the track). Others include kneeling just above the elbow, and lifting the forearm (quite nasty, really).


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## Muawijhe (Nov 2, 2010)

I agree with Chris' sentiments on sharing ones' favorite throws/techniques. However, I also understand the difference between a favorite technique from a viewer/sportsman vantage, and one from a personal/self defence standpoint.

As an analogy, I can tell you what my favorite movie to watch is, but if I were to make a movie, I would not make that movie. And why would I tell you the movie I was about to make? =)


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## WesternCiv (Nov 2, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> For a sportsman, it's fine to discuss favourites, as the stakes are limited if others figure out a defence. But if the training and aim is survival in life and death conflict, why would you tell someone what your favourite technique is, and allow them to figure a way to defeat it?


 
As an older, overweight, desk job beginner in martial arts ..... if someone that reads this board engages me in a life or death situation I'm not sure the fact that they know my favorite throw greatly increases their already substantial advantage! 

I do however see your point and hopefully I'm never in that situation!


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 2, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> you will land on your back and opponent falls forword and may land with the head hitting the hand thus it is called te makura or hand pillow


 
Actually it is called te makura because the person performing the technique has to keep the hand that envellops the opponent's elbow with the hand behind the ear, effectively locking the hold on his elbow behind the head. It looks like as if you will lay down to sleep, with a hand pillow. The opponent typically lands on his face, with or without his arm in the way, that is ultimately less relevant since the impact will be quite substantial anyway. I mean, you may land with your head on your hand with ganseki otoshi too, still it's not called te makura but ganseki otoshi (perhaps it is because he might also fall down on a rock when thrown?-hehe-)


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 2, 2010)

So it's a bad thing my students know my favorite kick and that I drill them on it constantly?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 3, 2010)

Ha, not really, it's just a different approach. I would say that you may be limiting what your students could possibly learn by limiting it to your personallity and it's preferences, but that's probably the biggest danger.


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 3, 2010)

I guess my students find me a waza-affectionate person, since most techniques are my favourite at some point . Limiting yourself to a "favourite" limits your options severely, since specific situations call for specific responses. On top of that, your favourite might be severe overkill in the real world, or unwise in certain contexts. Temakura for example, while a great technique, is not very wise when mobbed by three angry assailants, since you go prone yourself. In this case osoto would be much wiser, although I'd personally prefer sticking to daken (yeah, koppo and kosshi, really) until hostile numbers and eagerness to engage are somewhat reduced. UNLESS (for example) my assailants would be thaiboxing drugaddicts, than i'd probably change strategy. So, it all really depends on context. My favourite food might not be my favourite breakfast, so to speak. 

Think about it, talking about "favourite technique" is really putting the gyaku-jime on what taijutsu really ought to be; versatile.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 3, 2010)

I like watching taihodoki. Because if I watch it, it means that I am not the uke. And that is always a good thing if sensei is practicing taihodoki.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 3, 2010)

yes Kajowaraku. I never thought about it but now hand pillow really makes sense. it really does look like the person is lying on the hand lol 

I can agree limiting your self is not good. but when you are in danger and have no time to think you do what feels natural. maybe this is a good reason why to keep your favourite moves secret. also the more moves you are confidant using the more options you have. but if you haven't internalized them when you are under preasure you wont even think about all these moves and may use the one move you know best. Does this change when you get better ? is there really a time when you can adapt to the situation without even thinking about it?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 3, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> yes Kajowaraku. I never thought about it but now hand pillow really makes sense. it really does look like the person is lying on the hand lol


 
Hmm, you may not have thought of it, but I do remember saying that rather explicitly during the class.... with the opponent landing on their hand as a secondary "pillow" to the main one (your own hand).



DuskB4Dawn said:


> I can agree limiting your self is not good. but when you are in danger and have no time to think you do what feels natural. maybe this is a good reason why to keep your favourite moves secret. also the more moves you are confidant using the more options you have. but if you haven't internalized them when you are under preasure you wont even think about all these moves and may use the one move you know best. Does this change when you get better ? is there really a time when you can adapt to the situation without even thinking about it?


 
When put in an adrenalised state, you won't respond with "what feels natural", you will respond from the survival part of yourself. If there's nothing programmed into that part of yourself, that's when you freeze. And as far as "more options" goes, that really isn't an ideal either. We train multiple options (responses) in the traditional sections of the class in order to get all the lessons that are expressed through the traditional material, however our "street" training (survival orientated) is geared towards having only very few options that can be easily adapted to a wide variety of situations. The main reasons are that what will be effective and available to you is rather a limited list, due to fine motor skills dissipating and so on, as well as the fact that your mind will tke about half a second to go through each option (if your thinking), so if you have 4 options, that'll take about 2 seconds.... 10 options and you're at 5 seconds. Any more than that and you're on the way to hospital.

So for the "art" side of things, we train the complete range in order gain the greatest lessons out of the material... but it won't help you get home safe. So for that we train the "self defence" part of the class, and you'll notice that that section is rather different to the traditional section in that there is little emphasis on particular details, and the only idea is that you can express the principles under stress. And you only really get one or two options in most cases (which you drill in a few forms, but really they are just different expressions of the same principles).

Does that make sense to you?

Oh, and in answer to your last questions, yes. That is more to do with gaining the correct mindset and mental approach (Mushin and Zanshin), and you'll be introduced to that concept very soon.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 3, 2010)

yes this makes sense but what does'nt make sense is why traditional shinobe were taught this way if it wasn't practical in real life. wasn't ninjutsu focused more on the practical skills rather than flashy techniques? maybe it was more relevant in that time period and people actually moved in pronounced but graceful manner rather than modern times were there is nothing graceful at all and its all about efficiency.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 3, 2010)

Then you probably have a slightly unrealistic image of what the training was like for the ancient warriors. The training was simple for those expected to use it "in the field", focused on a few simple moves. The "higher level" style teachings and training, which most think of as the "standard", was more realistically for the higher ranked people (think of it as the tactical training for the Generals, rather than the boot camp for the regular soldiers). And when the art hit peace time, it allowed for a greater exploration of the concepts of the art, including looking to more applications and "techniques". Systems such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu, which boasts well over 100 kata, are good examples of this peace time expansion.

This also explains why these systems have such well developed unarmed systems, when unarmed combat would be one of the last resort, and rarest situations that the warriors would have found themselves in.


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 3, 2010)

it all boils down to mushin. Train until you can react without the necessity for mental processesing and selection. The moves are trained and drilled until they are second nature, and pure technique is absorbed in the personal bodily reality of the practitioner. It is this that kata seeks to teach, not different techniques, but the understanding of it, so you can make them truely your own. Essentially that means the same as what Chris said: when you break things down to their essentials, not too many distinct techniques remain distinct... most are variations of one another. usefull to know variations, but understanding waza, pretty much means you'll have to understand your further options too, often that is henka.

to put it simply: on the field of battle there is no "technique". Only life or death. And even that shouldn't concern you. 

Favourite techniques get you killed faster imho, although I am talking sengoku jidai context here .


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## Muawijhe (Nov 3, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> is there really a time when you can adapt to the situation without even thinking about it?


 
Yes and no. I don't think ever being in a situation where you are not "thinking about it" is ever wise. In Judo, we trained to find that sweet spot between an automatic response and analytical thinking.

It's difficult to express, but if you play a sport or have a hobby (preferably one that gets your adrenaline flowing) that you feel confident at when performing, then you've probably felt that "in the zone" feeling. It's purely mental, imo, as the body is just a machine that reacts.

The body will always react (even if that reaction is to just stand still or freeze), regardless of situation (react to external stimuli like being punched or kicked, the laws of physics), internal stimuli (physical limitations, a bad breakfast, etc.), and mental stimuli (pain, doubt). Now, this is just how it was explained to me many years ago and my experiences since then has shown so for me (perhaps I'm just putting my puzzle together because of that; each to their own), so take with a grain of salt.


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## Tanaka (Nov 3, 2010)

Kajowaraku said:


> I guess my students find me a waza-affectionate person, since most techniques are my favourite at some point . Limiting yourself to a "favourite" limits your options severely, since specific situations call for specific responses. On top of that, your favourite might be severe overkill in the real world, or unwise in certain contexts. Temakura for example, while a great technique, is not very wise when mobbed by three angry assailants, since you go prone yourself. In this case osoto would be much wiser, although I'd personally prefer sticking to daken (yeah, koppo and kosshi, really) until hostile numbers and eagerness to engage are somewhat reduced. UNLESS (for example) my assailants would be thaiboxing drugaddicts, than i'd probably change strategy. So, it all really depends on context. My favourite food might not be my favourite breakfast, so to speak.
> 
> Think about it, talking about "favourite technique" is really putting the gyaku-jime on what taijutsu really ought to be; versatile.


Favorite techniques in my eyes just means.
Suppose your opponent makes his move. The move he has made gives you certain techniques that work wonders in the situation that you are in. You will choose the technique out of the bag that is your favorite, and that you excel at the best.  I wouldn't perform that same technique all the time. Only if it's given to me in the best situation for it. You can have favorites and still remain "empty mind."   I mean honestly I think there's techniques that you're just going to do a lot better with, than others.


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## gregtca (Nov 3, 2010)

Are you going to try and kill me ? Soke said very long time ago , you dont tell anyone your fav techniques, 
Greg


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## DuskB4Dawn (Nov 4, 2010)

yes to just react without the necessity for mental processesing and selection as Kajowaraku pointed out. that would be the ultimate goal. but to have automatic response instead of analytical thinking you would have to of trained these techniques untill you know every variable and can adjust to the situation in real time to be able to do that.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 4, 2010)

It's impossible to know every variable, that's the dreaded "what if?" syndrome. What is possible, and is the ideal, is to completely understand and internalise the principles, and to allow them to freely adapt and express themselves through you in the moment... and the only way to do that is to get your conscious mind out of the way. This is Mushin, really.


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## Muawijhe (Nov 4, 2010)

Yes, I believe we are talking about the same thing, just I am having my words fail for me, lol.

For me, when I've exerpienced it (or something as best as I could assume is that state of mind), my mind became accelerated, but not on a conscious level like we normally think at.


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 6, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, not really, it's just a different approach. I would say that you may be limiting what your students could possibly learn by limiting it to your personallity and it's preferences, but that's probably the biggest danger.




Oh, I teach them things that I personally abhor (anything involving a jump or a spin).  I do love some of the more basic movements.  I know and teach the more complicated stuff, but I'm slowly moving back towards the 'one strike' mindset of defending oneself with TKD.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 6, 2010)

A focus on basics is great. I've seen schools suffer badly from teachers who only want to teach what is "important" to them, which is what I was getting at above. Things like only teaching "security" techniques, because the instructor works doors, even though the majority of the students don't, and those that do don't want their personal training time to be like work, and so on.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 6, 2010)

My favoirte is the one my partner (or opponent if it ever comes to that) sets himself up to fall into as a reaction to my movements.  

Then I execute it. 



Ok well, can Oya Goroshi be considered a throw If i drive my opponent to the floor with it?  Koe Goroshi?  No?  LOL. 

Damn it.


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## ElfTengu (Nov 11, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> What is your favourite throw in ninjutsu? .


 
Senban nage.


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