# Teens and alcohol safety



## Lisa (Apr 24, 2009)

BrunoMT made this comment in another thread when he was explaining how he teaches his children about safety in his home and it got me thinking:



> Btw, I will use the same approach to teaching them to drink alcohol in their teens. I'd much prefer if they learn the effects of alcohol in a safe environment, instead of at a party with a bottle of booze from someone's liquor cabinet.



My daughters and I have a pretty close relationship and I have always tried to have an open honest rapport with them regarding parties and drinking/drugs etc.   This year my youngest daughter started high school and of course started going to parties where alcohol was present.  She has been honest and open and we have always known when she has been drinking but I can honestly say I have never seen her so stupidly drunk and I am very proud of her for that.  

Lately she has opted out of going to these parties because she is absolutely disgusted with her friends and the way they act.  She says that her friends are usually so wasted by 9:00 pm that the party is basically over and she spends the rest of the evening taking care of them and cleaning up puke.  She doesn't understand why they do that and why they can't just sit around and have a drink or two, maybe get a little giddy and laugh and have a good time.  At the last party she was at a girl was so drunk she fell down the stairs, put a whole in the wall and my daughter finally had to call the parents and get her picked up.

So here are my self defence questions for you.

What do or would you tell your children regarding alcohol and drugs and what do you do to help keep them safe.

Do you or would you if you had children absolutely ban drinking by them until they were of legal age (18 here in Manitoba) or would you keep an open rapport with them and want to know what they are doing.

If you were to know and / or allow them to drink and go to parties would you supply the alcohol for them because you would want to know what they were drinking as opposed to not knowing where or what they were drinking?

And finally would you allow them to have parties in your home under your supervision to ensure safe environment for them and be responsible for making sure they all got home safely?

Alcohol and drug education to our children is imperative and a huge part of self defence, especially to our young girls.  It worries me as I know of a girl who was raped because she was so out of it from drugs and alcohol that she doesn't even know who it was that raped her and the fear of that happening to one of my children terrifies me.

I am looking forward to your responses and debate as I think we can learn a lot from each other. :asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 24, 2009)

My kids have a very unique perspective regarding this.  For about four years, I worked for a company that installed breathylizers in the cars of DUI offenders.  My entire recitation of my day involved talking about how otherwise decent people were out thousands of dollars in court costs, lawyers, and this machine which was 120.00 to install and 60.00 a month, plus fees for violations.

My ex wife drank frequently and my kids took notice of it and how it affected her and made a conscious choice to not allow it to affect them in the same way.  No, she did not lose her job due to alcohol abuse or rack up DUI's.  In fact, she was very responsible in her drinking; if she was driving, she did not drink.  But it did affect her lifestyle in several negative ways.

Nearly *all* of my personal counsel to my kids regarding alcohol has been in regards to alcohol and motor vehicles.  I also make a strong point about alcohol being something that can be a good, social thing, but that they do not want to let it control them.  

I have tried to present a ballanced view of alcohol to my kids.  In moderation, it is healthy.  Some of it tastes very good.  An ice cold beer on a hot summer day is one of life's pleasures.  A thick, frothy Guinness with dinner is another.  And no good Irishman can pass on a shot of Jamison once in a while.  A glass of Sandeman port and a good novel late in the evening is another of life's pleasures.  But they are meant as pleasures of the moment, to be enjoyed at the moment.  

In order for those to be pleasures, they must be indulged in responsibly.  When the work is done, you sit down with your friends for rest, relaxation and social bonding and have your ice cold beer.  Or a Pepsi.  

As such, neither of my sons have developed much interest in alcohol.  On occasions, I have let them have a taste.  They do not like it.  My eldest is eighteen and in a few more years will be legal to drink as he pleases.  He has gravitated towards non-drinking friends with no prodding from myself.  My younger son has absolutely no interest in alcohol.  His friends are video game nuts and are more likely to want Mountain Dew than alcohol.

I think that the key is not to make it taboo.  Make it taboo and you have the whole forbidden fruit issue.

As for drugs, my kids both think that they are "stupid."  I just tell them that they are illegal.  Period.  Since I do not engage in the use of recreational drugs, they have never been in the house for them to find.  A family friend, however did have a drug problem years back and both of my sons observed how it ruined his life, cost him his family, and ultimately his professional life as well.  I never had to lecture either of them about the negative effects of drug abuse.

Daniel


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 24, 2009)

So here are my self defence questions for you.



What do or would you tell your children regarding alcohol and drugs and what do you do to help keep them safe.

My mother was an ER nurse and my dad was a police officer, so since I was very young I was told about the bad effects of drugs and alcohol. I would see the kind of people substance abusers became and it mostly prevented me from drinking much until I turned 21 (legal age in Illinois). When my dad found out that I did drink occassionally with my friends when I was 18, he wasn't thrilled but he said "Remember it's illegal. If you get caught it is your problem. I won't bail you out; you're old enough to decide for yourself."
So if I ever have kids, I'll probably do the same thing my parents did and just never keep much alcohol in the house. Before their 18 I'll strickly forbid the use of alcohol, but once they turn I'd be a bit less strick probably. Illegal drugs will always be off limits in my opinion even marijuana for the simple fact that it is illegal and I don't want my kids (if I ever have any) to go to jail.

Do you or would you if you had children absolutely ban drinking by them until they were of legal age (18 here in Manitoba) or would you keep an open rapport with them and want to know what they are doing.

I think my above post mostly covers this. If I found out they were drinking before 18; I'd do everything I could to put an immediate stop to it. Teenagers lack impulse control and can quickly become binge drinkers. I'd do everything I could to prevent it.

If you were to know and / or allow them to drink and go to parties would you supply the alcohol for them because you would want to know what they were drinking as opposed to not knowing where or what they were drinking?

Never. They want to break the law, they can face the consequences. I would tell my kids if they ever got into a problem or if they were drinking I would rather they call me to pick them up than end up DOA because they were driving under the influence of alcohol to try and avoid getting in trouble.

And finally would you allow them to have parties in your home under your supervision to ensure safe environment for them and be responsible for making sure they all got home safely?

If they were 18...maybe. If they were younger, no. A person can go to jail ofr quite a while in Illinois for providing a minor with booze.

Alcohol and drug education to our children is imperative and a huge part of self defence, especially to our young girls. It worries me as I know of a girl who was raped because she was so out of it from drugs and alcohol that she doesn't even know who it was that raped her and the fear of that happening to one of my children terrifies me.

I'd tell my kids if they are going to a party with durgs or alcohol to A) don't go in th first place, B) Don't drink or do drugs if you go, C) if you're going to drink, make your own drinks and don't get hammered to the point where you can't defend yourself, D) If your going to do drugs, at least don't do anything really bad like heroin that can kill you in one shot.

Since I'm not a parent I can only assume how hard it is to raise kids and keep them off the junk. I never had a desire to go party or do drugs or drink more than one or two shots of whisky. I don't see the appeal. MA is my escape.


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2009)

Binge drinking by young people is a big problem here and I'd like to make a proper post but I'm off on night shift so I'll wait till the morning now. It is a huge problem here and I believe our government has taken the wrong track on it.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 24, 2009)

The age of majority in Ontario is 19. My son eschewed alcohol until he was about 18 -- high school graduation party. Naturally.

_What do or would you tell your children regarding alcohol and drugs and what do you do to help keep them safe._

Indoors. No cars. Carry money for a taxi -- I'll pop for it. Call if you need help. Carry a cell phone because I will call it.

_Do you or would you if you had children absolutely ban drinking by them until they were of legal age (18 here in Manitoba) or would you keep an open rapport with them and want to know what they are doing.
_
Uderage drinking is not inconsequential. It is still essentially against the law. Don't compound the problem by drinking in a park or ravine or somplace where you can get into more trouble. Kids do drink underage -- always have. 

_If you were to know and / or allow them to drink and go to parties would you supply the alcohol for them because you would want to know what they were drinking as opposed to not knowing where or what they were drinking?
_
No. I won't supply any alcohol. It's very expensive in Ontario, and if people are going to drink they better learn that.

_And finally would you allow them to have parties in your home under your supervision to ensure safe environment for them and be responsible for making sure they all got home safely?_

Never got to that point when my son was underage. For some events, I would be open to youngsters having a drink, provided I know all the parents and we're on the same page. As a parent I don't have a legal right to waive drinking age laws, especially for other people's kids. Now I would be ok with since everyone is of age. But, quite frankly, I've made it clear I don't want out-of-control behaviour in my home.


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## chinto (Apr 24, 2009)

I was raised in a household that when the parents had wine with a meal so did we kids, and if they had a drink because they had a party we got a sip or two.. so there was no mystique or any thing like that to alcohol .... so in high school and places when asked to go to a party and get drunk I had no interest.   

Do not make alcohol mysterious or intriguing, or a forbidden thing to rebel by using and you will have a lot less problems.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 24, 2009)

Lisa said:


> BrunoMT made this comment in another thread when he was explaining how he teaches his children about safety in his home and it got me thinking:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My Parents wanted me to learn at home. I did. I could have a drink if I wanted. It was not forbidden so it was not a fruit of temptation. 

They also told me if I ever needed to call for help, they would come and get me, and the questions and talking to or with would wait until the next day. 

I took them up on this, one night before I could drive. I called them as the party was out of control and nothing I was doing or could do would stop the idiots from being bigger idiots. I told them I could not wait at the house, and would meet them at the corner of the sub-division entrance.  My mom picked me up. I had had nothing to drink (* I had been the baby sitter of my friends, but this was friends of friends and their friends etcetera *). I walked to to the entrance of the sub and my mom picked me, She was not happy with me leaving the house. But I explained I could not stay. She drove by to see what I was talking about the the place had 4 or 5 police vehicles outside with kids being arrested, and from the time I had left to being picked up the party had gone outside and the damage outside was similar to the inside. 

My dad was upset, but my mom explained that I was not drunk and knew enough to know if I stayed I would be in trouble. 


And for those who wonder how I could leave someone behind, and brothers do not leave each other behind. Well, when brothers get so stupid they are a danger to themselves and others, and you tell them so and stop them, but insist you leave them alone, is the time for the hard love and for them to fall down and skin their knees and to learn that there is effect to their cause.


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## MJS (Apr 24, 2009)

Lisa said:


> BrunoMT made this comment in another thread when he was explaining how he teaches his children about safety in his home and it got me thinking:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
And this, IMHO, is the key to teaching your kids (not yours per se, just saying in general) wrong from right and making them use good common sense.  I think that too many times, people live in this fantasy land, where they hope that their kids won't become tainted by the bad stuff out there, and never talk to them about anything.  I would rather tell my kids instead of them finding out on their own.  All that said, I'll answer your questions.  For the record, I don't have kids, but I will go on what my parents taught me.



> So here are my self defence questions for you.
> 
> What do or would you tell your children regarding alcohol and drugs and what do you do to help keep them safe.


 
Explain the dangers of the stuff to them.  What can happen to them, what can happen to their family if they use drugs and alcohol, and the pressure that they'll most likely face in the world.  



> Do you or would you if you had children absolutely ban drinking by them until they were of legal age (18 here in Manitoba) or would you keep an open rapport with them and want to know what they are doing.


 
Like sex, kids are going to experiment whether we as a parent, tell them not to.  Did I have a drink at a party?  Sure.  Did I go out with friends?  Sure.  Difference is, is that I didn't put myself into a position where I wouldn't be able to get out of it.  My parents would rather have had me call them at 1 or 2am to pick me up, if I didn't have my car with me, rather than getting into a car with people who were too drunk to drive.  My parents knew where I was going, but trusted me enough to use good judgement.  I went to hang with my friends, not get drunk.  

Would I ban them from drinking?  No matter how hard I tried, they'd probably do it anyways, so no, I wouldn't ban them, but again, I'd have taught them to use good judgement.  



> If you were to know and / or allow them to drink and go to parties would you supply the alcohol for them because you would want to know what they were drinking as opposed to not knowing where or what they were drinking?


 
Would I supply alcohol?  Well, considering I don't feel like going to jail, no, I would not supply it.  As I said above, nothing says that they have to drink, just because others are.  



> And finally would you allow them to have parties in your home under your supervision to ensure safe environment for them and be responsible for making sure they all got home safely?


 
Sure.



> Alcohol and drug education to our children is imperative and a huge part of self defence, especially to our young girls. It worries me as I know of a girl who was raped because she was so out of it from drugs and alcohol that she doesn't even know who it was that raped her and the fear of that happening to one of my children terrifies me.
> 
> I am looking forward to your responses and debate as I think we can learn a lot from each other. :asian:


 
I'm proud to say that my parents taught me well.   People tend to think that the peer pressure will always get to the kids.  Thats not always the case.  I faced it, but I ignored it.  Its when people shelter their kids and try to save them from the bad things, and not tell them about anything, that they'll learn from other sources.  I think that if people take the time to teach their kids about life, they'll stand a better chance.


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## Carol (Apr 24, 2009)

At the risk of veering a bit off topic...Lisa, I personally think an important reason why your younger daughter has made the responsible choices that she has made was because she had the opportunity to start developing an identity of her own.  For her, it was through shooting with you and her dad.   

Even for a teen, there is more to life than just going to school and being part of a family.  By developing an identity outside of home and schoolwork, teens get to experience success on their own terms, and they get to experience pleasures and enjoyments that add something to their life, instead of taking away from it.  :asian:

Back more on the topic...if I were a parent, I would hope to build some sort of open rapport with my teen.   I have a wee bit of concern about my niece and nephew.  Neither are 21 yet.  I know they both drink, I know they've both been drunk, and I know their first drink wasn't at home because my sister is way too strict about that.

I worry about both of them binge drinking...especially my niece.  She's younger,  away from her friends that have been good influences in her life, and she's been assigned to a day shift on base and says that she wishes she didn't have the shift because all her friends work the night shift and she doesn't get to see them.


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2009)

Finally got here, had the childrens class grading this morning.

Binge drinking is a huge problem here, icreasingly so among young women. There's always been a culture in parts of the Uk where you go out to get totally drunk and it's not a good night unless you've thrown up a couple of times and havea massive hangover in the morning. It's recently been ruled in the High court that a woman can't claim she was raped if she is so drunk that she can't remember saying yes to the man she went home with and had sex with!
I was brought up in the European way with alcohol being allowed at mealtimes. Alcohol was treated as something pleasant and to be taken in moderation, so enjoying a glass of nice wine or fine whisky was a pleasure and not a means to get drunk. My mother gave me a taste of just about every type of drink so that i would know the taste if someone ever tried to put it in a drink I was having. 
I brought my children up the same, we spent a fair amount of time in Europe, living in Germany and holidaying in France. On a campsite we were treated to the sight of British kids( and adults) make complete and utter fools of themselves on the cheap booze while the immaculately dressed French, Italian, Dutch young people etc were drinking coffee or sipping small glasses of beer. The mocking glances of the lads especially taught my teenage daughter that drinking until ones paralytic is not 'cool'. I remember one English girl, dressed in a short white dress, being so drunk she fell over and was lying on the floor, dress up showing her thong ( and it wasn't a pretty sight, too little exercise and too much fast food and alcohol) shrieking like a banshee. It was shaming.
The government here thought firstly that the way to control this binge drinking was to allow longer opening hours of pubs and clubs, 24 opening a la European cafe society only we don't do cafe society here, we don't pop into the bar for a coffee or aperitif, our society goes to the pub and drinks until it can't stand, then picks up a donner kebab, starts a fight, has a pee in the street then arrested by the police.
The lastest idea is to tell parents they should never give their children alcohol, thus making it forbidden fruit. they've also blamed the supermarkets for selling very cheap booze.
This country needs a whole reversal on how it thinks about alcohol, children need educating but sadly I don't think that will happen.For a very long time this country has had a culture of heavy drinking. I believe Scotland and Ireland have probably the highest rates of alcoholism in the world, it's so much part of the culture. the young people are just following on. the cost to the country is enormous, the NHS spends millions treating alcohol related illnesses, incidents and accidents. It costs a fortune in policing as a huge amount of crime is alcohol related, ranging from peeing in the street to actual bodliy harm, grievous boldily harm, criminal damage, assault and drunk driving.
I'm not sure anywhere in the world is as bad for binge drinking and bad behavior as out towns and cities.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 25, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Alcohol was treated as something pleasant and to be taken in moderation, so enjoying a glass of nice wine or *fine whisky*.



Tez, you're my kind of woman 

I collect scotch malt whisky, and my wife likes it as much as I do. I never have to argue about going to the specialty shop and buying a couple of bottles of the really good stuff.

Anyway, when I was 12 or 13, I was curious about my father's bottle of vodka. So My parents decided that I could drink 1 thimble sized glass of vodka, 1 time per week (fri or sat). The glass was smaller than the last bit of my pinkie.

With every birthday, I got a slightly bigger glass, and by the time I was 17, I could get one or two extra glasses if I felt like it. When I turned 18, I could do as I wanted, as long as I kept myself in check and didn't overdo it.

By allowing me to learn to appreciate alcohol like this, they prevented me from doing stupid things, and I also learned to appreciate The good stuff. So when I started going out for the first time, I didn't even drink because I didn't like beer, and because they didn't sell whisky at parties.  
Alcohol itself didn't have any special attration to me. Been there done that.
The US way of making alcohol illegal for < 21 is the wrong way imo. I think it's stupid. Then again, considering the US beer, it is probably out of compassion 

When my kids get older, I am going to allow them to learn to appreciate alcohol like I did. I'd much rather they learn to understand it in a safe environemnt, rather than at a sleepover with a bottle of swiped booze.


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## Deaf Smith (Apr 26, 2009)

Lisa,

Our daughter never had much craving for booze (she's an accountant now.) She once had a mixed drink at lunch with us in Dallas, I guess to show she was an adult. My wife and I just got tea.

But our son... well he went to a Catholic high school and tried to be like the rich kids there. Once got into trouble 'mooning' the principles home late at night (some of the idiots bragged about it the next day.)

And once he got home stinking drunk. WE WERE PISSED! Especially since he had a degree in Nuclear Medicine and we let him know if he got caught DWI that would end his career and he would still have a huge debt.

Well he's much better now. No drinking and might get married soon.

We did tell him (and her) if you can get yourself in jail. you can get yourself out.

So all's well that ends well.

Deaf


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I was brought up in the European way with alcohol being allowed at mealtimes. Alcohol was treated as something pleasant and to be taken in moderation, so enjoying a glass of nice wine or fine whisky was a pleasure and not a means to get drunk.


I think that this is a very good point.  Most often, the people most irresponsible with firearms are those who were brought up without them around or in homes where firearms were not respected and treated as toys or status symbols.

Alcohol is the same way.  If a kid has no frame of referrence other than 'drinking is a sin', that is most definitely NOT good parenting in that regard.  I find that in the US, that attitude is most common amongst very religious Christian households, whose kids often wind up having alcohol problems once they leave the protective cocoon of home.  Likewise, parents who are irresponsible with alcohol do not properly prepare their kids for dealing with alcohol when they are on their own.

I find that there is propensity in the states to view the primary use of alcohol as the attainment of drunkeness.  While I am sure that that is a motivation in Europe as well, Europeans have the groundwork of alcohol being used in a setting where drunkeness is not goal, whereas in the US, alcohol consumption is often seen as separate from dining.

Daniel


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## Lisa (Apr 27, 2009)

I have had plenty of conversations with the parents of my daughter's friends.  We all agree that we would rather know then not know.  If baffles some of them as to where the kids get the alcohol from in the first place but most of them have older sibling that can supply it to them.

I am glad my daughter has the attitude she has about alcohol and I hope it stays that way.  I won't make it a taboo but I will help her make intelligent decisions regarding it.

Teens will drink alcohol whether we give them permission or not.  They will find a way, just like we did as kids.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 27, 2009)

Lisa said:


> Teens will drink alcohol whether we give them permission or not.  They will find a way, just like we did as kids.



I had a similar discusion with someone about sex-ed, after someone remarked that allowing the morning after pill for 17 year olds would condone unsafe sex, and cause them to have sex earlier... as if they wouldn't have thought about it otherwise.

You don't wait with talking to your kids about sex until _you _think they are old enough to have sex. You do it waaaay before, so that when the time comes, they can make that decision based on factual information that they have thought about beforehand.

I prefer that scenario instead of one where they find themselves in the back seat of a car, armed with the 'certainty' that you can't get pregnant the first time.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 30, 2009)

Lisa said:


> BrunoMT made this comment in another thread when he was explaining how he teaches his children about safety in his home and it got me thinking:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First, it needs to be made VERY clear that anyone's ability to defend themselves or even make safe choices begins to decline exponentially as alcohol is consumed........that includes increased risk of vehicle collisions, assault, sexual assault, alcohol poisoning, and injury and death in general etc, etc, etc.

One cannot defend one's self if one is in an intoxicated or drugged condition......and that intoxicated or drugged condition need not be voluntary, as GHB and Rohypnol illustrate.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 30, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that this is a very good point.  Most often, the people most irresponsible with firearms are those who were brought up without them around or in homes where firearms were not respected and treated as toys or status symbols.
> 
> Alcohol is the same way.  If a kid has no frame of referrence other than 'drinking is a sin', that is most definitely NOT good parenting in that regard.  I find that in the US, that attitude is most common amongst very religious Christian households, whose kids often wind up having alcohol problems once they leave the protective cocoon of home.  Likewise, parents who are irresponsible with alcohol do not properly prepare their kids for dealing with alcohol when they are on their own.
> 
> ...


 And yet Europeans also have a huge drinking problem.....the REAL difference between Europe and the US, is that the US is a sprawled society, spread out, and we, as a result, mix alcohol with driving far more often.  Further, Europeans can correct me if i'm wrong, but European societies do not see personal automobiles as an entitlement to every 16 year old as we do in America, thereby mixing underage drinking with underage driving.

In Europe, while alcohol related driving incidents do occur, the dynamics between teens and driving is quite different.


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