# Lame Demo's?



## Brad Dunne (Nov 5, 2005)

Why is it that every demo of Hapkido, at least all the ones I have seen, are always focused on showing defense against wrist grabs? Couple this with the folks who like to do breakfalls with bearly being touched and it kind of puts Hapkido in a negitive light to many folks. 

If you could give a demo of Hapkido, what would you do different, if you would do anything different?


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## Tgace (Nov 5, 2005)

Yours isnt the only art with the wrist grab obsession....for some reason lots of arts love to waste time tinkering with 1001 responses to the wrist grab. I have a tough time remembering when the last time I ever saw a wrist grab used in a fight though...


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## arnisador (Nov 5, 2005)

That _is_ a pretty common demo for Hapkido...I guess it's the aikijutsu influence.


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## howard (Nov 7, 2005)

LOL... it does make one wonder.

What makes it all the more curious is that Hapkido has defenses from just about every grab and strike imaginable... why would people restrict themselves to wrist grab defenses in demos?

I also kinda shake my head at those acrobatic breakfalls.  You wouldn't dream of doing that on, say, asphalt or concrete.  Somebody mentioned that the wrist grabs are probably inherited from aikijujutsu.  So are these falls, I expect, just as they passed on into Aikido.

Just as an aside, there are ways of making sure that your opponent cannot do one of those fancy falls out of your technique... one of the better ones is to step on his opposite foot when you apply any joint lock.

I suppose a lot of it comes down to people simply wanting to put visually impressive things in their demos.  But is that what you really want to use to attract newcomers to your art?


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## Hollywood1340 (Nov 7, 2005)

*laughs* I love it when people who have nooo idea what they are looking at and the truth behind it post about generalities of an art.

Howard is correct about our defenses. We do and can defend against more then JUST grabs. But as in any art ther is a lot you DON'T see. The motion of the human body as the techinque is put on, if from a grab, punch or kick. You don't SEE the shoulder seperate and the elbow break. And I'll explain why.

In HKD the falls are there for the protection of the fallee, but also to get us used to taking the technique "All the way". I don't stop at tap out, I countinue the motion full speed, full power. In reality, the human body is torn asunder and the body will attempt an acrobatic fall. Much better demo'ed in person, but there is what I call the "Twitch reflex" where when a joint lock is applied, regardless of the lead in, the body will attempt to throw itself through the air to get rid of the pain. If it's succesfull or not is another matter. But we HKDins use that reflex as the opening for our falls. There is rhyme and reason behind what we do, and in the end, the result is quite destructive. But then again, most don't know that  

But I do agree, showing more then just grabs, and attacks from a realistic situation is much better for demonstration purposes. However a break between how WE do it and the "Traditional" way does make for some spectacular falls. On my part


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## mantis (Nov 7, 2005)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Why is it that every demo of Hapkido, at least all the ones I have seen, are always focused on showing defense against wrist grabs? Couple this with the folks who like to do breakfalls with bearly being touched and it kind of puts Hapkido in a negitive light to many folks.
> 
> If you could give a demo of Hapkido, what would you do different, if you would do anything different?


do u have anything to show so we can relate?
i mean, if u want


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## Hollywood1340 (Nov 7, 2005)

Try www.geocities.com/indy458/Gallery.html I put up some HKD clips there from around the web.


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## Kumbajah (Nov 8, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Try www.geocities.com/indy458/Gallery.html I put up some HKD clips there from around the web.



I hate to be a fly in the ointment - but these are "tradtional" Hapkido players, where you study combat hapkido. I am being a stickler granted - but I think it is a bit disingenuous to present it as what you do. I know that there is a bit of cross over but you have to admit that the system you study is altered from traditional Hapkido. Some would go as far as to call it another system entirely.  

As for wrist grab demos mark it up to tradition. Give it another 10 years and the public face will change dramatically, We have to respect our elders and their way of doing things. There is a method to the perceived madness. When given our chance some things that we do may seem out of step. With all traditions - you try to expand but you have to be careful not to toss away what is valuable.


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## arnisador (Nov 8, 2005)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> As for wrist grab demos mark it up to tradition. Give it another 10 years and the public face will change dramatically, We have to respect our elders and their way of doing things. There is a method to the perceived madness. When given our chance some things that we do may seem out of step. With all traditions - you try to expand but you have to be careful not to toss away what is valuable.



I like this attitude!

I also think that wrist grabs and such make for an easy-to-plan demo, unfortunately. Don't underestimate that factor!


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## Jonathan Randall (Nov 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yours isnt the only art with the wrist grab obsession....for some reason lots of arts love to waste time tinkering with 1001 responses to the wrist grab. I have a tough time remembering when the last time I ever saw a wrist grab used in a fight though...


 
Smaller persons, women and children are often grabbed by the wrist as an itimidation tactic. True, it's not a high probability assault for a 6 foot man, but it is still a frequent assault tactic against some people. Defense against it (simple escape, no counter) was the first technique I learned in Danzan-ryu Jujitsu - and I used it the very same year in which I was taught it.


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## howard (Nov 8, 2005)

A bit off the original topic, but I've always heard and read that the reason there are so many wrist grab defenses in Hapkido is historical - it's said to be because wrist grabs used to be a common tactic to prevent you from drawing your sword.  Of course, I can't vouch for the accuracy of that...


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yours isnt the only art with the wrist grab obsession....for some reason lots of arts love to waste time tinkering with 1001 responses to the wrist grab. I have a tough time remembering when the last time I ever saw a wrist grab used in a fight though...



Maybe it is becuase you were not there at the beginning of the confratation. I have seen it, and I have seen it from males used against females. They reach out and grab their wrist (* seems non threatening to the general public *). I have seen is where the guys grabs the wrist and then punches. If you train to have a release ready in muscle memory, it starts to react as the strike is coming in. 

Now I will grant this, I have seen as many if not more, tackles, shoves, people striking themselves to adrenaline themselves up, before they jump in, and such. I am by no means saying it is a majority, only that I have seen it.


As to demo's this is osmething that is self defense oriented, and allows for the person to see they can get away from being trapt. Other than just fighting, for most people who start martial arts do not start it as an acomplished fighter. Some yes, not most or all.


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## Hollywood1340 (Nov 8, 2005)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> I hate to be a fly in the ointment - but these are "tradtional" Hapkido players, where you study combat hapkido. I am being a stickler granted - but I think it is a bit disingenuous to present it as what you do. I know that there is a bit of cross over but you have to admit that the system you study is altered from traditional Hapkido. Some would go as far as to call it another system entirely.



Never presented it as what I do, simply said I had some HKD clips I found on the internet. And from what I've seen and experianced, I do hapkido as well.


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## howard (Nov 8, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> ...I have seen is where the guys grabs the wrist and then punches. If you train to have a release ready in muscle memory, it starts to react as the strike is coming in...


I agree, that tactic is not all that uncommon.  Especially if a fight has already started, and both fighters are in a basic boxing stance (facing each other, on the balls of their feet, guards up).  In this situation, it's not unusual for a trained fighter to grab his opponent's lead wrist, manipulate the arm somehow and throw a punch or follow up some other way.  For example, if I'm in a natural righthander's fighting stance (my left foot forward, my left fist leading, in front of my body, to jab or parry), my opponent can grab my left (lead-hand) wrist and follow up.

Fortunately, Hapkido has numerous defenses against this type of wrist grab too.


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## arnisador (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm with *howard*--this is where it's important to me personally. A grab during a fight, possibly at an awkward angle or only half-grabbing, is not uncommon. Throw a backfist, someone's block/parry becomes a grab--that's wher one can use wrist hold techniques. I often use just the first part of such a technique to maneuver the person to where I can throw a punch.

I agree that it's also a common initial or intimidating attack by the larger against the smaller.


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## Solidman82 (Nov 8, 2005)

> If you could give a demo of Hapkido, what would you do different, if you would do anything different?


 
Well first of all, I would not have a HKD demo in the first place.

 Do they run Dojangs or stunt studios? For some reason I feel like they should pick one of the other and do it well.

Second, I always felt it would be a cool demo if they just went out there and sparred all out. Demonstrate what is actually being taught at the school and not stuff they slapped together for a flashy demonstration. Or maybe even just have all the student attack the head instructor and have him defend agaist it like an aikido school would.

I suppose I don't run a school though so I can't really talk, just my opinion as usual.


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## Tgace (Nov 8, 2005)

IMO..the prevalence of wrist grabs goes back to the days of swords, knives etc. where the opponent would grab the wrist to prevent a draw. While not "impossible" to see on the street, I would only work on 2-3 simple/effective techniques. A lot of the fancy locks, twists etc. just rarely fly in a full blown brawl. They may work if you are an LEO/Security worker and have to deal with resistive people who are not all out fighting, but for general SD I wouldnt get too pedantic on the subject.


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## Brad Dunne (Nov 8, 2005)

We should all give Tgace an extra "atta boy" for just using the word "pedantic"...............:uhyeah:


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## ChineseKempoJerry (Nov 8, 2005)

I do not practice or follow Hapkido. I did learn wrist grabs early in my training. Came to find out that it was the principle of the technique he wanted us to learn and could care less about the wrist grab. 

The principle could be applied in the clinch, from a punch, or on the ground. He just one day said that wrist grabs were an easy way to teach to beginners because they question you less. My best Chi Na techniques stem from a wrist grab technique that have nothing to do with wrist grabs.

Food for thought - maybe there are alot of wrist grab techniques because it was easier to teach the principle or theory of a technique that way. (eye of the beholder?)

Best Regards,

Sifu Jerry


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## arnisador (Nov 8, 2005)

I've often said something similar...wrist grabs are a good way to teach techniques that can be used in a variety of circumstances!


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## FearlessFreep (Nov 9, 2005)

Agreed with Jeff, wrist grabs are easy to teach, to beginners especially, because they are non-threatening compared to other forms of attacks (like punches, bear hugs, etc...), but they start teaching you how the body works and moves and what directions forces can work on the body, and how to apply pressure, etc.  I never really saw wrist escapes as simple "if someone attacks me like this, I will escape like this" but more as demonstration points of how to move and apply pressure to the other person to escape and avoid being hurt myself.

Like a recipe when watching the cooking show.  The recipe itself teach how to make a certain meal, which is good and useful in out's own right.  Watching a chef build a meal from that recipe also teaches you how to user salt and other spices, how to apply heat, how to use milk as a base, etc...and those simpler applications become building blocks for many other recipes

Wrist grab escapes are 'easy to teach and easy to demo but start the course of buildng and understanding in applied body mechanices  that is useful in many other situations

Disclaimer: Like many, I don't formally study Hapkido, but my instructor has a strong background in it so our self-defense draws from some Hakipdo techniques


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## Brad Dunne (Nov 9, 2005)

I understand the teaching concepts of starting off with wrist techniques, but many of them are really not practical for a real altercation. There are many folks who don't have the hand size or strength to allow them to work the techniques. I know that some will want to say that it's the technique itself and that size and strength don't matter. All I can say to that is that I put that right up there with "everyone really pays their fair share of taxes"   One has to remember that many of the techniques in question from demo's are predicated on the fact that the attacker continues to hold on, long after it would be practical to do so. That aspect alone gives anyone with a lick of common sense a not to warm and fuzzy feeling about what's been viewed. 

Thanks for the feedback folks.....:asian:


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## howard (Nov 9, 2005)

"...One has to remember that many of the techniques in question from demo's are predicated on the fact that the attacker continues to hold on, long after it would be practical to do so. That aspect alone gives anyone with a lick of common sense a not to warm and fuzzy feeling about what's been viewed."

I definitely agree with this.

And you'll see the same thing in punch defenses... the attacker punches, the defender parries or evades, and the attacker leaves his punching arm fully extended for what seems an eternity.  Nobody should think for an instant that a trained fighter would ever do that.  They punch and retract very quickly.  It's fine to use that approach when people are starting to learn punch defenses, but at some point you need to make the speed of the attack - and retraction - more realistic.


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## The Kai (Nov 9, 2005)

One of the reason's why the wridtlock off the punch dense is a peeve of mine


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## guitarac311 (Jan 9, 2006)

I too have been a bit confused and disapointed with all of the throws, all though i can see the resoning, Hapkido is a defensive art, simple as that. Throwing someone to the ground is the most effective way to defend yourself, and on a real surface hitting your back after a 3 foot fall or worse can  really hurt. If you would like to see some more realistic combat for hapkido take a look at some of these clips 

http://http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/video.htm

Most of these are demos, though the "kick demonstration" seems to be authentic. I recomend checking that one out, also the "belt techniques."


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