# Cold Steels views on reverse grip.



## arnisandyz (Jan 18, 2005)

Advantages
Power
trapping

Disadvantages
Lack of reach
Lack of versatility
Lack of flexibility
Lack of accuracy
Lack of defense

What do you think? Agree, disagree? I think they forgot about weapon aquisition/deployment advantage (speed draw). 

http://www.supervirtual.com.br/acervo/Truth About Reverse Grip.htm


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## OULobo (Jan 18, 2005)

I pretty much agree. If it is a "duel" style fight, I would always pick the regular grip. My main motivation is range and stabbing ability. The only time I would use reverse is in very short range, very tight spaces or if it was the first way I grabbed it and didn't have time to adjust.


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## Cruentus (Jan 18, 2005)

I am mostly a forward grip blade person. This includes deuling or self-defense due to the tactics I advocate. Yet, I don't ignore what reverse grip is for, as it has its time and place. There are advantages to the reverse grip that have been expressed by many tactical knife geniuses in the blade world. If I am not mistaken, I believe that Master at Arms James Keating, a very talented knife instructor, is an advocate of the reverse grip in his draw-point series, particularly for civilian use.

I see major advantages in terms of quick deployment for the fixed blade, concealability, and assasination tactics that a military person in rare cases might need. I prefer a reverse grip particularly if I am caught in a grappling circumstance with the knife. I could see advantages of reverse grip if I were to be using it to back up my firearm hand as well.

You see, not everything is going to go down in real life like it will on the mats. If I am sparring with my trainer, it will be a duel that will require a forward grip to win. However, there is a good chance that in self-defense I won't have time to square off, it may start in the standing grappling range from the get-go, I will be unevenly matched, and it won't be knife on knife. Quick deployment of reverse grip becomes a viable tactic for real life scenario's outside of the training floor.

Now, although I respect Mr. Thompson for some of his wonderful and affordable Cold Steel products, I think he speaks a bit too "matter-of-factly" for my tastes when he writes on blade tactics. Not all these issues are as black and white as this article would want you to believe. I wouldn't expect to get the "truth" about reverse grip from any article, as in a blade encounter this issue is very subjective to the situation, need, and individual.

Just my opinions,

Paul Janulis


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## psi_radar (Jan 18, 2005)

I would include better retention as another advantage of the reverse grip.


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## Rick Wade (Jan 18, 2005)

I personally like the reverse grip.

I train with the Pick tactical Knife.  the handle is made to fit the same reverse or forward.  

in the reverse you can emply traps and it give you a much stronger grip when using the blade to block someone that is trying to slash you.

I am not doubting what you guys are saying this is just what I have been shown and practice.  It is what is comfortable for me.  

V/R
Rick English


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 18, 2005)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Advantages
> Power
> trapping
> 
> ...


They forgot one advantage...concealability (Element of surprise)...reverse grip conceals the knife for surprise attack.  Even if your opponent has a knife, not knowing you have one can give you an advantage.  Again, though, i'm of mixed feelings on the issue.


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## Cruentus (Jan 18, 2005)

To find out where one stands on the issue, it is best to test this stuff for oneself. The best way to lab test this stuff is to spar to first blood with flexable trainers. In sparring knife vs. knife you'll find that the forward grip wins almost every time. However, if you do scenario training, you'll find plenty of scenarios where the reverse grip is the way to go.

Paul


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## AnimEdge (Jan 18, 2005)

i would only use it in a more threating way, ya know?

Like your in a fight or whatever and you want to threaten them but yet if it becomes physical you dont want to kill them, that was it leaves it open to most basic punches and such but you can also do some damage with it as well ya know?

thats what i think


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## Blindside (Jan 18, 2005)

> If I am not mistaken, I believe that Master at Arms James Keating, a very talented knife instructor, is an advocate of the reverse grip in his draw-point series, particularly for civilian use.



Yup, but he (JAK) will chew you up and spit you out using a forward grip with his bowie work. 

I don't buy "lack of accuracy," I don't feel any less accurate in reverse than forward.  The "lack of defense" is also flawed, reverse grip can be used as a guard/armor for the weapon hand, and you can use the point to pick of incoming attacks without the dedication of required from a slash.  Mr. Thompson also advocates carrying a ginormous knife, something that isn't really practical (or legal) for most of us.  

Personally I prefer the saber grip for long range but use reverse when things get tight.

Lamont


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## Cruentus (Jan 19, 2005)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> i would only use it in a more threating way, ya know?
> 
> Like your in a fight or whatever and you want to threaten them but yet if it becomes physical you dont want to kill them, that was it leaves it open to most basic punches and such but you can also do some damage with it as well ya know?
> 
> thats what i think



A knife should only be deployed if lethal force is justified; even if one only intends to use the knife in a less lethal fashion, the force continum is immediately raised when a knife is introduced into the fray.

Paul


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## Cruentus (Jan 19, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Yup, but he (JAK) will chew you up and spit you out using a forward grip with his bowie work.
> 
> Lamont



He, like I, would appear to know that there is a time and a place for everything...

Paul


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## AnimEdge (Jan 19, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> A knife should only be deployed if lethal force is justified; even if one only intends to use the knife in a less lethal fashion, the force continum is immediately raised when a knife is introduced into the fray.
> 
> Paul


True True but i was using it as a example per se


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## KenpoTex (Jan 19, 2005)

I like and use both (I also use forward edge-in, and reverse edge-in)depending on the situation. They both have their place, it doesn't have to be either/or.  Even in sparring/dueling I find the reverse grip usefull, primarily if my training partner is being aggressive since you can trap/hook and then move in.  If you have a double edged knife it's just icing on the cake since your traps will do damage as well.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jan 19, 2005)

Hello Everyone,

I have no preference as to grip, but there are many myths about the Reverse grip that be re-examined:

1) Lack of reach - The distance will be determined  by the tactic you employ in the combat situation. Lack of reach usually is because the options taught to the student have only included short range fighting tactics. (trapping, short range reverse slashes and stabs etc) As an example in Floro Fighting System the primary grip is in the reverse position, yet I can stand at 4 - 6 feet from you and easily strike you in less than 1/2 a sec. (usually less.)

2) Lack of Versatility - Again I truely believe that being "versatile" is in the training set forth to the practitioner. If you are never exposed to many methods or manner of using a tool or weapon than you are limiting the use of the weapon.

3) Lack of Flexibility -In a reverse grip position, my hand and wrist are still offer me a good range of motion and flexibility. A method to help improve your flexibilty here could be taken from Silat, where practitioners learn to write their name in script form with the tip of the blade. 

4) Lack of accuracy - Again this is a training issue. I practice in either grip to work for accuracy. I hit 8 or 9 out of 10 times a less than 2 inch target all the time. It can be done on the move, or froma stationary position, but practice is the key!

5) Lack of defense -Lack of defense against what? A particular type of attack? While holding in reverse grip you have the ability to pick off an opponent's hand with the blade, jam it, hook it, filet it on the back stroke and a host of other "defensive methods".

When carrying a fixed blade you will notice that you are ina natural position to grab for the blade in a reverse grip position. It is fast and requires no change of the wrist position in order to draw from the same side as the drawing hand. Cross draw enables a person to easily draw in the forward grip again without the change of the wrist position. 

I hope this helps keep the thread moving! Great posts by all!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## OUMoose (Jan 19, 2005)

I generally lean toward reverse grip with a smaller blade.  It feels more comfortable, and I feel like I have more control over the blade.  With a larger blade (over 13" or so), I'd choose foward grip, as blades that size aren't generally made for an icepick grip, and start feeling clumsy.


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## arnisandyz (Jan 19, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> To find out where one stands on the issue, it is best to test this stuff for oneself. The best way to lab test this stuff is to spar to first blood with flexable trainers. In sparring knife vs. knife you'll find that the forward grip wins almost every time. However, if you do scenario training, you'll find plenty of scenarios where the reverse grip is the way to go.
> 
> Paul



Right on.  If I'm in a sparring (dueling) situation against a trained knife person I'm more comfortable playing the largo game than trying to close using reverse grip. The only way to determine for yourself is to try it and try to close on a trained fighter. Its much easier to close on untrained people because they aren't considering the physical and tactical advantages/disadvantages of the ranges and grips.

Also as you mention, in scenario training when some jumps you "Cato style" it depends more on how you get to your knife and then you fight with it whichever way your holding it.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 19, 2005)

I once long ago thought the reverse grip was cool. Then I took up Kali/Arnis/sword training and sparred reverse and forward grip. I no longer think it's cool, or effective for 99% of real world fights. The best way to avoid being cut is de-fanging the snake which can only be effectively done forward style.


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## Brother Grimm (Jan 19, 2005)

I believe that the most important knife you own is the one you have in your hand when you need it. That being said reverse grip gives you the quickest draw to put your knife into play when you absolutely need it. In doing senario training I have also found that not only is it quicker but it is less likely to be seen by your opponent. Just my 2 cents


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## TonyM. (Jan 19, 2005)

I use forward grip for a knife or dagger and reverse grip for an ulu.


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## arnisandyz (Jan 19, 2005)

You could always carry 2 (or more) knives. One that is specific for standard grip and another like a Hobbit or Kerambit for reverse.


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## TChase (Jan 21, 2005)

> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I have no preference as to grip, but there are many myths about the Reverse grip that be re-examined:
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Two things I could add for the reverse grip are a more effective cut on the draw and more versatility with fulcruming cuts.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jan 21, 2005)

Hello Again!

TChase, good additions! A few months ago I was teaching a Sayoc Kali seminar in Stockholm, and was asked about "reverse grip" methodology in FFS. I did a short demonstration which you can view at www.bujinkandojo.net, click on the multimedia link and then FFS demonstration. 

AC_Pilot : As for De Fanging the snake: The potential for an incoming strike to be negated by a countering/damaging strike to that arm has it's flaws as well.

1) The weapon containing arm may continue to follow it's inteded path and hit you. This could be due to the adrenal response in the antagonist not recognizing the body has been damaged.

2) A complete severing of the incoming arm, may result in the trajectory of the weapon coming though to you as well.

3) The gunting/Defanging the snake can also be done in the reverse position, again this is only limited by the methods that you practice and train in.

Another option is to "Jam" the reverse grip weapon into the oncoming arm or hand, edge out it cuts into the attacker, edge in he hits a hard wall of steel and may rebound slightly opening the door for a counter attack.

Gumagalang

Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## TChase (Jan 21, 2005)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> Another option is to "Jam" the reverse grip weapon into the oncoming arm or hand, edge out it cuts into the attacker, edge in he hits a hard wall of steel and may rebound slightly opening the door for a counter attack.
> 
> Gumagalang
> 
> Guro Steve L.


That's something we do quite often.  Very effective when moving in on an attack.


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## Drifter (Jan 30, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> I once long ago thought the reverse grip was cool. Then I took up Kali/Arnis/sword training and sparred reverse and forward grip. I no longer think it's cool, or effective for 99% of real world fights. The best way to avoid being cut is de-fanging the snake which can only be effectively done forward style.


 You can defang in reverse grip. Try to get a copy of JAK's Drawpoint Volume 2. It covers some forward grip applications too, in case you still don't like reverse grip.


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## Liam_G (Feb 21, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Yup, but he (JAK) will chew you up and spit you out using a forward grip with his bowie work.



It is my opinion that Mr. Keating will chew up and spit out most people using anything  from a #2 pencil on up ... reverse or forward grip ...   

Respectfully,
Liam


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## Cruentus (Feb 22, 2005)

Liam_G said:
			
		

> It is my opinion that Mr. Keating will chew up and spit out most people using anything  from a #2 pencil on up ... reverse or forward grip ...
> 
> Respectfully,
> Liam



Very true!  artyon:


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Feb 28, 2005)

Hello guys,

Yes, Mr. Keating has some great material!

Here is another look at reverse grip sparring methods:

1: Reverse grip vs reverse grip 
2: Reverse grip vs forward grip
3: Reverse grip lead hand:Forward grip rear hand vs Same 
4: Forward grip lead hand: Reverse grip rear hand vs Same
5: #3 vs #4
6: Reverse grip in both hands vs forward grip both hands

Have some fun and train hard it is the Way!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 3, 2005)

Hey Guys,in the filipino arts as taght by Dan Inosanto one of the primary reasons to train reverse grip knife is to understand how to go emptyhand vs a knife.If you understand how the reverse grip functions in its respective range you will understand how to use the same disarming,locking and trapping techs empty hand.Plus contrary to what a lot of people think you will end up in more situations empty hand vs a knife than in a knife-knife duel.As a former corrections officer I have gone empty hands vs a knife in life or death situations and technique wise it was reverse grip training that enabled me to walk away-not foward grip.Plus not to knock anybody but I think a person with some type of Kali training that actually carries a knife on the street is insane! The court system will have a field day with you. Barry Cuda combatartsusa.com


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## Drifter (Mar 3, 2005)

Sifu Barry Cuda said:
			
		

> Plus not to knock anybody but I think a person with some type of Kali training that actually carries a knife on the street is insane! The court system will have a field day with you.


 The court system would do that with any martial art. Besides, knives are for utility also, and people who have training in their proper use should not be forced to leave perfectly legal tools at home.


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 4, 2005)

Drifter,sure the court system CAN have a field day with any martial artist busting up an attacker but leaving someone bleeding out on the street or getting carried away witha follow up and causing death is another story.I personally was arrested for asault after leaving an attacker bleeding in the street.The charges were dropped by the DA but the cops on the scene took me in because I was standing there without a scratch and an ambulence was called for the other guy.Im an ex cop and have been teaching JKD and Kali to lawenforcement for 15 years and the horror stories of obvious self defense getting turned into assault are too numerous to mention.Carry your knife-Im leaving mine home, Barry  combatartsusa.com>


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## Cruentus (Mar 4, 2005)

I agree that a knife shouldn't be carried for the sole purpose of self-defense. In my "EDC Knife" seminars, one of the first things I say is that if you are intending to carry something for self-defense, OC spray is great for non-lethal force encounters, and a pistol is great with the proper licensing (CPL) for lethal encounters. Even though in Michigan it is technically legal to carry a knife for self-defense, if a knife is deployed, one is looking at a host of legal troubles that may or may not be worth it.

However, many people, like myself, carry knives as everyday utility tools. The pistol cannot be taken everywhere, and is often legally limited to be carried in places and situations where attacks often occur. The knife can be carried in most places where a pistol cannot be carried. So, if one carries a knife as a tool, I feel that it is important to know the strengths and limitations of that tool as a lethal force option. This is one reason it is useful to train the knife.

All of that said, I am morally against any limitation on the law abiding citizen's ability to defend himself. So I understand perfectly well if one wants to carry something that may not be legally prudent if used in self-defense. However, I realize that moral convictions won't prevent you from going to prison for defending yourself.

So it boils down to personal preference; I respect ones preference to carry whatever they want for self-defense. I only advise that people know the strengths and limitations of what they carry in a physical manner, as well as a legal one.

Paul


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 4, 2005)

Paul, point well taken, but here in NYC if your carriyng a knife as a tool you better be wearing work clothes and prove you are going or coming from work because we have the worst weapons laws in the country.Any blade in NYC is considered a concealed weapon not a tool.You d be better off carrying a screw driver here.When I lived in Indiana you could get a carry permit with a drivers licence and everybody carried a knife on their belt.I was more or less refering to the stricter laws in NY when I made that comment.believe it or not carrying pepper spray is a missdemeanor here, Barry


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## Cruentus (Mar 4, 2005)

Sifu Barry Cuda said:
			
		

> Paul, point well taken, but here in NYC if your carriyng a knife as a tool you better be wearing work clothes and prove you are going or coming from work because we have the worst weapons laws in the country.Any blade in NYC is considered a concealed weapon not a tool.You d be better off carrying a screw driver here.When I lived in Indiana you could get a carry permit with a drivers licence and everybody carried a knife on their belt.I was more or less refering to the stricter laws in NY when I made that comment.believe it or not carrying pepper spray is a missdemeanor here, Barry



Yes...and as much as I love NY and NYC, I am very glad I don't live there for that reason...the laws are much more restrictive. 

And the sad thing about it is that you best believe that a criminal in Jamaican Queens or some such place is carrying whatever the hell he wants, and could care less about adding another felony or misdemeanor to the list.

 :supcool:


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## Flatlander (Mar 4, 2005)

Regarding reverse vs. sabre, I am altogether more comfortable with a sabre grip for my own personal safety.  Having a limited amount of time in the art, I feel more prone to cutting my left arm in a cross over mistake when using a reverse grip with my right hand, than with a sabre grip.  I'm not sure why that is - I just feel more precise going sabre.  Perhaps, in time, I'll be able to train my way out of that feeling; but for the time being I figure it's best, practically speaking, to operate where I'm comfortable.


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## Cruentus (Mar 4, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Regarding reverse vs. sabre, I am altogether more comfortable with a sabre grip for my own personal safety.  Having a limited amount of time in the art, I feel more prone to cutting my left arm in a cross over mistake when using a reverse grip with my right hand, than with a sabre grip.  I'm not sure why that is - I just feel more precise going sabre.  Perhaps, in time, I'll be able to train my way out of that feeling; but for the time being I figure it's best, practically speaking, to operate where I'm comfortable.



For many people, reverse grip is more instinctive then saber; but as an FMAer I could understand how with your stick and empty hand training, you may be putting your live hand into play in a manner that could be dangerous for reverse grip fighting. As you probably know, the key to working this out is training to deploy your live hand differently when using the reverse grip.

If you were in closer proximity, I'd be able to demonstrate what the hell I am trying to say.  :ultracool However, I am certian GM Worden or Mr. Ostapiw will be more then qualified to show you... :asian: 

That said and as I said before, Saber Grip is greatly effective, and my personal preference for most situations. The reverse grip, however, has its time and place...

Paul


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## Flatlander (Mar 4, 2005)

Oh, for sure! I can definitely see the point being made about its practicality off the draw with a fixed blade.

And, BTW, if we were close enough for you to show me what you're talking about, we'd be having a beer right now! :cheers:


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 9, 2005)

> Drifter,sure the court system CAN have a field day with any martial artist busting up an attacker but leaving someone bleeding out on the street or getting carried away witha follow up and causing death is another story.


Remember the recent case here in NYC where a nightclub bouncer was killed by a knife to the thigh which severed his femural artery. In the trial it came out that the man with the knife was a Kali man and the press had a field day. The DA brought in witness after witness to testify to the expertise that a Kali practitioner has with a knife.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Mar 10, 2005)

Hello Everyone,

This thread just keeps growing!

I believe everyone here will agree that anyone who carries a weapon for self protection, what ever type of weapon, has the level of responsibility to not draw the weapon until they or their loved ones are in serious danger. Any immature act of brandishing a weapon as a threat, or the improper use of a weapon in a "non life threatening" situation, will always bring with it a lot of pain and woe from Law Enforcement, and the Legal system.

(Bars are the worst situation in which to carry a weapon as three things are mixing..Testosterone, Alcohol, and Estrogen!)

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Drifter (Mar 10, 2005)

Nanalo74 said:
			
		

> Remember the recent case here in NYC where a nightclub bouncer was killed by a knife to the thigh which severed his femural artery. In the trial it came out that the man with the knife was a Kali man and the press had a field day. The DA brought in witness after witness to testify to the expertise that a Kali practitioner has with a knife.


 Yes, that is a factor, but also consider that that was an unprovoked assault (as far as I know). The Kali guy deserved to go to jail. He shouldn't have carried a knife with that temperment, but people who don't go out, get drunk, and feel a need to stab people should be okay with their folder on them.


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## Cruentus (Mar 10, 2005)

Drifter said:
			
		

> people who don't go out, get drunk, and feel a need to stab people should be okay with their folder on them.



:rofl: good point lol.


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 11, 2005)

Drifter said:
			
		

> Yes, that is a factor, but also consider that that was an unprovoked assault (as far as I know). The Kali guy deserved to go to jail. He shouldn't have carried a knife with that temperment, but people who don't go out, get drunk, and feel a need to stab people should be okay with their folder on them.


Oh absolutely. That guy and his friends were troublemakers from the start according to what I read. I was merely using that to illustrate the point that we have to be especially careful because of what we know.

"With great power comes great responsibility." - Uncle Ben Parker 

Vic www.combatartusa.com


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 11, 2005)

Guys some of us have a lot more to lose than others.How many of us here would want the DA to run a google search on us ,make big charts and show the unknowledgeable jury and judge how "dangerous we are" The more well known you get as an instructor and the more time the internet can assosiate your name with the term knife fighting is very not good.Ill stick with unarmed thank you. Barry www.combatartsusa.com


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## JKD_Silat (Mar 11, 2005)

Sifu Barry Cuda said:
			
		

> Guys some of us have a lot more to lose than others.How many of us here would want the DA to run a google search on us ,make big charts and show the unknowledgeable jury and judge how "dangerous we are" The more well known you get as an instructor and the more time the internet can assosiate your name with the term knife fighting is very not good.Ill stick with unarmed thank you. Barry www.combatartsusa.com


I certainly understand , and respect your choice not to carry. However, I live in a neighborhood that can be described as questionable at best. I always insist on walking with my girlfriend, even to 7-11 three blocks away after dark. Although I hope to never have to deploy my folder in self defense, or to protect my girlfriend, I certainly want the option to do so if the situation calls for it, and escape is not a viable option (my girfriend ain't a track star). To quote the old adage "better to be judged by 12....."  (Also, I'd never forgive myself if I left the folder on the nightstand next to my 1911, and carrying it would have made a difference in the safety of my girlfriend).


Regards


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 13, 2005)

JKD-Silat, no doubt better to be tried by 12... Its just my personal preference.As I posted earlier I had a run in with the law after being attacked and the guy had a black eye and a busted nose and demanded an ambulence.I was arrested but the charges were dropped.It was a nasty affair and changed how I present certain material in class.I can only imagine how it would have went if the other guy needed 30 stiches even if it was only his forearm that was cut and it wasnt a mortal injury. Barry  www.combatartsusa.com


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