# Interesting



## Tames D (Jan 3, 2015)

Chinese kung fu masters battle over inheritance of Yip Man s Wing Chun legacy South China Morning Post


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 3, 2015)

Interesting but not surprising!


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## Transk53 (Jan 3, 2015)

Unfortunately would not play for me on the phone, but at the outside, seems a little bizzare after this amount of time. Then again, with Ip Man 3-D imminent, that in my current view is not surprising either.


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## KPM (Jan 4, 2015)

Its kind of silly to want to pick one guy to be the representative for ALL of Wing Chun.  That would be like Japan wanting to pick one guy to be the representative of ALL of Karate.  The results would be the same.   Wing Chun is now so  diverse that there isn't one person that could legitimately represent all of it.


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## Marnetmar (Jan 4, 2015)

Unfortunately the page doesn't display for me.

I don't think Yip Man even wanted a "successor," but if we want to play this game, then logically wouldn't it either be:

A. Yip Man's two sons 

or

B. Yip Man's most prized student (Leung Sheung) and then whoever Leung Sheung's most prized student is/was?


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 4, 2015)

For those of you who can't load the page...here is some copied/pasted text from the article:

_A controversy has erupted in Chinese martial arts circles over who will be chosen as the officially sanctioned inheritor of the legacy of Wing Chun-style kung fu.

Nine martial arts groups from Guangdong province have signed a letter contesting a suggestion by the provincial department of culture to list Ip Chun, the son of kung fu legend Yip Man, as an official standard bearer of the martial art.

The 90-year-old Hong Kong-resident has to this day continued to give lessons in his fathers’ teachings.

Chinese provinces have been creating lists of “intangible culture heritage representative inheritors” ranging from practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine to opera singers and mooncake bakers.

This year’s list for Guangdong province was released for public consultation earlier this month until Monday.

Ip was among the 113 people included in the document. The two other Wing Chun representatives are Kuok Wai-jarm and Leung Wai-wing from Foshan.

Ip’s father Yip Man was the teacher of actor and Hong Kong kung fu legend Bruce Lee.

Two recent biographical blockbuster movies rediscovered the master’s story and introduced it to a global audience.

Though born into a rich family in Foshan, Guangdong in 1893, Ip later endured poverty and repression in the warlorlds' period and Japanese occupation until he immigrated to the then-British colony of Hong Kong, where he popularised his style of Wing Chun kung fu until his death in 1972.

Two days after a public review period ended, a leading Guandong newspaper said nine martial arts groups opposed the province’s selection of Ip and two other men as representatives of Wing Chun.

The choice was “completely inconsistent with history and the reality of the situation” the opponents wrote, according to their letter seen by the Southern Metropolis Daily.

Ip had lived in Hong Kong for too many years and had not contributed to the development of Wing Chun in its hometown Foshan, the report said.

The groups named in the report on Wednesday could not be reached for comment.

A spokesman for the Guangdong provincial martial arts association also declined to comment.

A member of the Martial Arts Association in Guangzhou’s Conghua district, which signed the letter opposing Ip’s selection, said the Wing Chun style of kung fu dated back to imperial times and had by now developed into different styles.

He said he opposed the selection of Ip and the two other nominees, saying they could not represent Wing Chun in its entirety.

Ho Kay, chairman of Wing Chun Ip Chun Academy and a student of Ip for three decades, rejected the accusation that Ip had not contributed to Wing Chun in Foshan. He said Ip’s students had built an Ip Man museum on the outskirts of Foshan and have been teaching summer classes in the city for years.

An expert commission will study Ip’s nomination and objections raised by the nine kung fu groups, a staffer at the Guangdong Province Intangible Cultural Heritage Protection Centre said. _


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## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

Their citation over Ip being based in HK as an issue is preposterous. Thanks for posting the excerpt.


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## yak sao (Jan 4, 2015)

If you look at WC as a whole, Yip Man was just one branch off of a much bigger tree.
So I can see them on the mainland not wanting the HK group representing the entire "family".

It gets down to why do we even need a figure head at the top? We've seemed to have done ok for the past century or two without one.
While we all have common ancestry and (hopefully) share common traits and principles, there is too much diversity within all the different lineages...good grief, look at how much divisiveness we have coming down out of Yip Man's HK lineage alone....without even mentioning his Fotshon students.
Then you go back a generation to all of Chan Wah Shun's people...of whom Yip Man was only one of some 18 or so.
Then a generation back before that to Leung Jan's students, of whom Chan Wah Shun was just one of many.
Then back a generation before that to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai...how many others did they teach besides Leung Jan?

Then you go back to their teacher...........And again this is only one branch from the tree!

How is one man supposed to be the Grand Poobah of all of this?


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 4, 2015)

good points Yak. 
And then theres this: even IF a grand poobah was named...who, of all the different entities and practitioners out there, would follow him?


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## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

Yes would probably start a world wide bun fight on who's Wing Chun is the best. Besides it is not a stretch to imagine that plenty of usurpers will be lurking in the shadows.


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## yak sao (Jan 4, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> good points Yak.
> And then theres this: even *IF a grand poobah was named...who, of all the different entities and practitioners out there, would follow him?*




His students...until the day came to name a new Grand Poobah, then it would faction off again as everyone argued that they were the rightful successor and then it would become even more fragmented than it already is.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 4, 2015)

yak sao said:


> His students...




Exactly. And what would be the point? How is that any different that how it is today? I.E. Leung Ting...he heads his own organization. If he were to be annointed...probably only HIS followers would pay it any attention.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 4, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Exactly. And what would be the point? How is that any different that how it is today?
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> FWIW- the issue of succession is just plain silly. There are too many branches and factions and variations.
> ...


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 4, 2015)

Vajramusti - I agree. I think there must have been a good reason in Yip Man's mind as to why he did not appoint a successor before he died. 
Maybe he realized that wing chun was growing and would soon be too large and diverse a family for one successor to manage. Or, he just didn't care...


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## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Vajramusti - I agree. I think there must have been a good reason in Yip Man's mind as to why he did not appoint a successor before he died.
> Maybe he realized that wing chun was growing and would soon be too large and diverse a family for one successor to manage. Or, he just didn't care...



Yeah he probably did not bother to worry. I would imagine that he felt that his teachings were secure at least.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 4, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah he probably did not bother to worry. I would imagine that he felt that his teachings were secure at least.


-------------------------------------------------

IMO- often imitated but secure.


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## Transk53 (Jan 4, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> IMO- often imitated but secure.



Often imitated??


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## KPM (Jan 4, 2015)

Realize guys that they are not proposing a head of Ip Man Wing Chun, they are proposing a head of ALL Wing Chun!  Why would someone like say...Wong Nim Ni....acknowledge Ip Chun as any kind of "head"?  His branch of Wing Chun has nothing to do with Ip Man.


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## yak sao (Jan 4, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Vajramusti - I agree. I think there must have been a good reason in Yip Man's mind as to why he did not appoint a successor before he died.
> Maybe he realized that wing chun was growing and would soon be too large and diverse a family for one successor to manage. Or, he just didn't care...



I've heard some speculate that the reason he didn't name a successor is because he didn't consider himself the lineage holder.


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## Danny T (Jan 4, 2015)

I speculate it doesn't matter at this point. No one was or is the so called successor. Was there ever a single successor? 
Wing Chun is now larger than any one person or family and I don't believe there should be a single person. Stay true to the principles, train smartly, train for practicality, pressure test, and be honest in what you learn. Form, Drill, Apply. Wing Chun will be alive.


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## Tames D (Jan 4, 2015)

I think appointing or electing any one person as a figure head for Wing Chun would never work. There wouldn't be any unity regardless of who the person was. Same thing with Kenpo. Just becomes a power struggle for a title that would never be respected by everyone.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Interesting but not surprising!



Yup, pretty much.

Problem is Wing Chun is not a family style so I don't see how there can be one head honcho of Wing Chun. And who (other than Ip Man) has the authorioty to officially sanction a head of Ip Man Wing Chun. And if you are looking at this from a TCMA POV these things tend go along family lines which would mean Ip Chun followed by Ip Ching. But again that would have been something Ip Man would have had to "sanction"

It is all just silly CMA politics and I am thinking a grab for the gold ring due to the popularity of the Ip Man Movie franchise. There is money to be made here off of all those foreigners heading to China to learn Wing Chun after seeing the movie... and if your the undisputed lord high grand imperial poo-bah of Wing Chun... they will FLOCK to you in droves...$$$$$$$$$


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## almost a ghost (Jan 5, 2015)

People are getting too worked up over a list no one seems to care about.


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## yak sao (Jan 5, 2015)

I'm starting a campaign to name myself the spokesperson and head of all wing chun here on Martial Talk.

Please send money to help with my campaign...I'm sure it's tax deductible.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 5, 2015)

All bow down to lord Yak Sao


yak sao said:


> I'm starting a campaign to name myself the spokesperson and head of all wing chun here on Martial Talk.
> 
> Please send money to help with my campaign...I'm sure it's tax deductible.



Works for me...


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## Tames D (Jan 5, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I'm starting a campaign to name myself the spokesperson and head of all wing chun here on Martial Talk.
> 
> Please send money to help with my campaign...I'm sure it's tax deductible.


Check is in the mail. When will my membership card arrive?


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## yak sao (Jan 5, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> All bow down to lord Yak Sao



Now see, when you say it like that it just sounds silly.....we need a better title.


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## yak sao (Jan 5, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Check is in the mail. When will my membership card arrive?



Your fists are your membership card. We are a secret society...no one must know of us.

P.S.  I prefer cash


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## Jake104 (Jan 5, 2015)

Danny T said:


> I speculate it doesn't matter at this point. No one was or is the so called successor. Was there ever a single successor?
> Wing Chun is now larger than any one person or family and I don't believe there should be a single person. Stay true to the principles, train smartly, train for practicality, pressure test, and be honest in what you learn. Form, Drill, Apply. Wing Chun will be alive.


I believe no one was named successor then cause, it was a fighting art not a business like today.  The last part of your post is all that should matter to us as martial artist. I think some are too focused on the map and totally miss the destination.


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## Jake104 (Jan 5, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Your fists are your membership card. We are a secret society...no one must know of us.
> 
> P.S.  I prefer cash


LMK if you need a treasurer? I have sticky hands training!


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## yak sao (Jan 5, 2015)

From what I understand, the Chinese government is in the process of codifying their marital arts and developing a standard ranking system of something like 10 levels and a standardized curriculum for each of them.
In this list are the 6 tai chi families(Chen, Yang, Wu, Wuu, Sun, Hu), Long fist, Ba chi, Hsing I, pa kwa, Wing Chun (they refer to it in the Mandarin, as Yong Chun) and several others.

I'm wondering if naming a head of the WC system is part of that process?


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## yak sao (Jan 5, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> LMK if you need a treasurer? I have sticky hands training!



I like your initiative young man...you'll go far in my new regime.


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## Highlander (Jan 5, 2015)

There are many reasons why this idea would most likely never work. But lets put that aside for now.
What if Yip Man didnt pick a predecessor on purpose? Maybe it was a final hidden lesson of sorts. After all, The Chinese love those hidden symbolic messages. Yip Man understood that Wing Tsun isnt a bunch of systematic techniques, but rather a system of principles. And as long as one ahears to said principles any movement could be considered Wing Tsun. So as a person starts to master wing tsun it becomes as unqiue as the individual who is practicing it. My WT will look different from lord yak sao's and everyone else's, because my body, mind, and personality are different. Maybe Yip Man never picked a predecessor because he believed was meant to be different from the other martial art systems, it is meant to change and adapt with the world around it.


Or maybe he didnt care for the politics of it all


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## Tames D (Jan 5, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Your fists are your membership card. We are a secret society...no one must know of us.
> 
> P.S.  I prefer cash


My fists are already registered with local law enforcement. Will that give away my identity and be a problem for our secret society?


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## Danny T (Jan 5, 2015)

Why did Yip Man not pick a predecessor? Who would he have chosen and why?

First off he taught almost everyone a bit differently than the others. Why? Some rear foot weighted 100%, some 70/30, others 60/40. Some to shift on their heels, others to shift on the balls of feet, the ball of the big toe, the center of the foot. Some he taught the forms a bit different than others. Why? So many different ways and they are all correct.

I believe the answer is in the fact he taught so many different people different ways and that is why there was no one person selected as the one single person to carry wing chun forward.

There is no one all encompassing way. What is best for you.

I asked my sifu many years ago about the many different ways to shift and the different weight distributions. His answer, “ why are you so concerned with what is the best. It all depends on the individual and what is happening at the time. Practice and feel, what feels best for you? Now do it in a different situation, what feels best? Sometimes one is better than the other, other times it is just the opposite that is best.” Some people want something that is the best or that is better than what the other person has. Ok do it this way, this way is the best. Now how do you feel? You feel better? Ok this is the best.

So who would he have named when he trained everyone differently.


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## yak sao (Jan 5, 2015)

Tames D said:


> My fists are already registered with local law enforcement. Will that give away my identity and be a problem for our secret society?



Pay double and you can join


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Now see, when you say it like that it just sounds silly.....we need a better title.



All bow to his high and mighty lord of all Wing Chun Coolness and number one top guy Yak Sao..... how's that


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## Steve (Jan 6, 2015)

Can I be one of your minions?


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## Vajramusti (Jan 6, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> All bow down to lord Yak Sao
> 
> 
> Works for me...


My ming men resists when I bow!!!


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## wtxs (Jan 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Now see, when you say it like that it just sounds silly.....we need a better title.





Xue Sheng said:


> All bow to his high and mighty lord of all Wing Chun Coolness and number one top guy Yak Sao..... how's that



Personally I like the title of "Mr. Me-Yucky son" ... close enough sounding to Yak Sao.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> My ming men resists when I bow!!!



You could always try bending over backwards 


wtxs said:


> Personally I like the title of "Mr. Me-Yucky son" ... close enough sounding to Yak Sao.



Yes, but that will never do..... Wing Chun is Chinese so Mr Yak Sao would be Yak Sao Xiānshēng but since we are talking the head of all things Wing Chun....Yuk Sao Gōng might be better since that would be Lord Yuk Sao


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## yak sao (Jan 6, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> All bow to his high and mighty lord of all Wing Chun Coolness and number one top guy Yak Sao..... how's that



Simple, yet elegant, I like it.


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## yak sao (Jan 6, 2015)

Steve said:


> Can I be one of your minions?



Of course...all are welcome. Please send money.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Simple, yet elegant, I like it.



Do we need to overt our eyes when posting and talking to you?


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## yak sao (Jan 6, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Do we need to overt our eyes when posting and talking to you?



If you're like me you need to look at the keyboard when typing, so no.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> If you're like me you need to look at the keyboard when typing, so no.



Thanks because if I was not looking at the key board this post would have looked like this....

thacks because if I was not looking at the ketbbiasrdd my posrt woikld look like thjois


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## yak sao (Jan 6, 2015)

Kind of sad really. I can do chi sau blindfolded but I couldn't type without looking if you put a gun to my head.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 6, 2015)

Same here with push hands..and I'm a IT guy so i feel your pain


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## Tames D (Jan 6, 2015)

I sent in my payment as requested (demanded). I still have NOT received my membership card and certificate. Who do I file a complaint with?


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## yak sao (Jan 6, 2015)

Tames D said:


> I sent in my payment as requested (demanded). I still have NOT received my membership card and certificate. Who do I file a complaint with?




I will deal with the person responsible with undue harshness and severity.


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## Jake104 (Jan 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I will deal with the person responsible with undue harshness and severity.


Excommunication!


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## Tames D (Jan 6, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I will deal with the person responsible with undue harshness and severity.


You're a mean man mister.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 7, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I will deal with the person responsible with undue harshness and severity.



Seems reasonable to me.....


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## Argus (Jan 16, 2015)

yak sao said:


> From what I understand, the Chinese government is in the process of codifying their marital arts and developing a standard ranking system of something like 10 levels and a standardized curriculum for each of them.
> In this list are the 6 tai chi families(Chen, Yang, Wu, Wuu, Sun, Hu), Long fist, Ba chi, Hsing I, pa kwa, Wing Chun (they refer to it in the Mandarin, as Yong Chun) and several others.
> 
> I'm wondering if naming a head of the WC system is part of that process?



Welp, there goes whatever remains of TCMA. I do hope we can still find semblance of anything genuine in China 20, 30 years from now.


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## yak sao (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm sure there are still hidden enclaves scattered here and there throughout China that still hold on to the old ways...at least I hope there are. They will see this attempt by their government for what it is and continue on.


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## wingerjim (Jan 22, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> Unfortunately the page doesn't display for me.
> 
> I don't think Yip Man even wanted a "successor," but if we want to play this game, then logically wouldn't it either be:
> 
> ...


 I would say the right answer is B only because he started with Ip Man long befor either Ip Ching or Chung and he was actually told by Ip Man to start teaching and a school.


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## geezer (Jan 22, 2015)

wingerjim said:


> I would say the right answer is B only because he started with Ip Man long befor either Ip Ching or Chung and he was actually told by Ip Man to start teaching and a school.



Nope. Grandmaster Yip and Leung Sheung had some serious differences later on. Wing Chun politics got really nasty in Hong Kong long before most of us outsiders even knew what WC was.

Face it, with all the different takes on the art, there will never be one "Grandmaster of everybody" in the Yip Man lineage. Probably just as well, too.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I'm sure there are still hidden enclaves scattered here and there throughout China that still hold on to the old ways...at least I hope there are. They will see this attempt by their government for what it is and continue on.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish that the government would stay out of it. Even though it's post Mao-the Cultural revolution and it's aftermath did much damage to TCMA. Ip Man left for Macao before the cultural revolution and many top TCMA folks left the mainland. Some survived such as Cen taiji even though some Chen masters suffered some. Still as a family art they weathered the storm and are doing just fine.Sum Nun quietly kept on teaching his version of wing chun.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> Nope. Grandmaster Yip and Leung Sheung had some serious differences later on. Wing Chun politics got really nasty in Hong Kong long before most of us outsiders even new what WC was.
> 
> Face it, with all the different takes on the art, there will never be one "Grandmaster of everybody" in the Yip Man lineage. Probably just as well, too.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no way to have a true successor to Ip Man.Too much gushing waves gone under the bridge. Best to search hard for a competent and knowledgeable sifu, "eat bitter" and practice


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## Marnetmar (Jan 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> Nope. Grandmaster Yip and Leung Sheung had some serious differences later on. .



That's interesting. Anything you know of in particular?


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## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> That's interesting. Anything you know of in particular?


-----------------


Anyway-Geezer is correct.


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## wingerjim (Jan 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> Nope. Grandmaster Yip and Leung Sheung had some serious differences later on. Wing Chun politics got really nasty in Hong Kong long before most of us outsiders even new what WC was.
> 
> Face it, with all the different takes on the art, there will never be one "Grandmaster of everybody" in the Yip Man lineage. Probably just as well, too.


 I agree...this is why I just smile when I see the title Grandmaster in front of someone's name in the WC world.


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## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

wingerjim said:


> I agree...this is why I just smile when I see the title Grandmaster in front of someone's name in the WC world.



Yeah, I see that too now. Thank you for the thoughts


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## Danny T (Jan 24, 2015)

geezer said:


> Face it, with all the different takes on the art, there will never be one "Grandmaster of everybody" in the Yip Man lineage. Probably just as well, too.



Geezer, Vajramusti, and I (as well as some others here) are all greatly influenced by Yip Man students or those who have shared a lot of training time with him. Our instructors have their perspectives as to passing on what they learned and we each have our perspectives. I'd say much of what we have is the same or very similar. Much is different and that is as it should be. We are all different and our wing chun should be different. The fundamentals are the same or very similar, though some movements are different and I'm willing to assume that many applications will be different also. Just as it should be. So should we all follow or acknowledge a one single person to be "Grand Master". For me that answer is no.


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## geezer (Jan 24, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> That's interesting. *Anything you know of in particular*?



Yes. But I can't verify the details. And the last thing WC needs is more people spreading nasty rumors. It's enough to know that the previous generations had their conflicts too, and let it go at that.


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