# Bunkia?



## kydaviddoyle (Jun 20, 2008)

Hi,

2 questions.

1 - what is the Korean word that equals bunkia?

2 - What is a good source (web, book, ect.) for bunkia?  I'm mainly looking for sources dealing withPyong 2?

Thank you for your time.

David


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## MBuzzy (Jun 20, 2008)

Please see this thread, as there is an extensive discussion there.

In Summary
Boonhae - Dismantle or take apart.  Seems to be the best translation for Bunkai
Haesul - In depth commentary
Haesoek - Interpretation

As for a source regarding the boonhae, I would look up Iain Abernathy, he is quite the expert in terms of Bunkai and interpretation.  He is a Japanese practitioner, but if you are looking for Pyang ahn interpretations....those forms come from Japan, so that would work for you.


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## kydaviddoyle (Jun 22, 2008)

Thank You


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jun 30, 2008)

Bunkai I believe is Bun Seok

Also, two books I recommend are The Way of Kata, and Shotokan's Secrets.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 30, 2008)

Rick,

I'm curious where you found this term?  I have heard Bunhae and Haeseok, but never Bunseok.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jun 30, 2008)

Bun seok is a common term - literally I believe it means to take apart.  Bunkai means to disassemble.  So they are the same term.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 30, 2008)

I only ask because there seem to be quite a few interpretations of which is the best translation for Bunkai.  Unfortunately, I only speak Korean, not Japanese, so I'm not capable of going from Japanese to Korean.  

The word &#48516;&#54644; (Bunhae) means to dismantle or take apart.  I had never heard Bunseok used in that way.  &#48516;&#49437; (bunseok) does mean analysis (&#48516;&#49437;&#54616;&#45796; meaning analyze), but it hadn't come up in our previous discussions as people having used that term.  

So the word Bunseok could be added to the list of possible translations, meaning analyze.  

Just curious where you had heard the term - if it was standard practice in your organization or if you had it in print somewhere or if there was a senior member who used the term.  Thanks!


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## howard (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm not sure about this, but it appears that it is bun seok.

Here are the Chinese characters:

*[FONT=&quot]&#20998;&#26512;[/FONT]*

According to wikipedia, these characters are pronounced "bun seok" in Korean and "bun kai" in Japanese. In both languages they mean to analyze, decompose, etc., a process.

Hope this helps.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 30, 2008)

Howard,

Does Wikipedia have a Hanja translation tool?  I wasnt' seeing the Hanja translation.  I'm having a really hard time finding good reference materials for Hanja....Plenty for Korean, Plenty for Chinese....very few for Hanja.  

I didn't see any Korean, Hangul, or Hanja on the linked Wikipedia page, just the chinese and Japanese.

Thanks!  I hadn't thought of going back to the chinese....duh.  Good thinking!  Thank you!


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## DMcHenry (Jun 30, 2008)

For a while I had only heard of hyung sinchong, but while translating a Korean version of Hwang Kee's book on the Yuk Ro & Ship Dan Gun forms I saw "bunseok", bunhae being another word commonly used.  Ever since I've used bunseok as the Korean version of bunkai.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 30, 2008)

DMcHenry said:


> For a while I had only heard of hyung sinchong, but while translating a Korean version of Hwang Kee's book on the Yuk Ro & Ship Dan Gun forms I saw "bunseok", bunhae being another word commonly used. Ever since I've used bunseok as the Korean version of bunkai.


 
Sir,

Someone mentioned in the other thread that they had used the term &#49888;&#52397; - or Shinch'ong.  I believe that this was probably the result of a "bad translation," that term means application for a passport or visa, as in, a paperwork application.  It seems that on another analysis, Bunseok may be the best word, as it means application.

I find it interesting in linguistics terms, that the words Bunseok, bunhae, haesul, and haeseok all have similar meanings.  

I would LOVE to have the opportunity to directly translate the Daekahm or the Hangul Volume 2....I have been searching for them for 2 years and recently got outbid on e-bay.    My instructor has them, but I think that he realizes their value and never lets them out of his sight.


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## DMcHenry (Jun 30, 2008)

It was interesting but VERY slow translating (and I only got through very little - just seeing if I could do it).  I didn't have the full book, but a GM was explaining something to me and showing me how similar the forms were, so I tried to see if I could translate a small example of it.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jun 30, 2008)

Sin Chong means application, but it refers to an actual application, like a paper to be filled out.

Some where some one looked up the word application in a Korean-Engklish dictionary and found sin chong and that spread like wildfire with no one challenging what it meant.

Of course, it didn't help that most Korean schools have no bunkai/bunseok knowledge, and therefore didn't know the difference.


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## DMcHenry (Jun 30, 2008)

It's been a while, but I believe I did ask a Korean years ago when I first heard it.  Maybe that's why he said it didn't make sense to just say sinchong, but should be said hyung sinchong.  I believe it did mean 'application', where bunseok/bunhae meant 'analysis', similar to bunkai.


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## B.Redfield (Jul 1, 2008)

"but if you are looking for Pyang ahn interpretations....those forms come from Japan, "

Okinawa to Japan to Korea


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## howard (Jul 1, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Howard,
> 
> Does Wikipedia have a Hanja translation tool?  I wasnt' seeing the Hanja translation...


Hi,

Not that I know of... what I did was look up both "bunseok" and "bunkai" in wikipedia, and both entries had the same Chinese characters. So I deduced that the hangul equivalent of "bunkai" must be "bunseok".



MBuzzy said:


> Thanks!  I hadn't thought of going back to the chinese....duh.  Good thinking!  Thank you!


Cheers... glad you found this helpful.

To add a thought, something I've noticed over the years is that there seem to be variations of even the most basic terms in Korean from one style to another, and even within styles, from one kwan to another. Ive seen different terms for things like the names of strikes and stances. I don't know nearly enough hangul to be able to explain the differences.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 1, 2008)

I think that part of it depends on exactly what idea you are trying to get across.  Remember that when translating languages, words do not always go directly from one to the other.  Where we have one word to represent a few different ideas, another language may have 10 words with slightly different connotations.  By the same token, one word in another language may not have a direct translation to another.  Bunkai is a very specific martial arts term in Japanese....therefore, we are trying to assign native Korean words as a translation to this word, therefore, there is possibly more than one "right" answer, depending on the idea that you want to get across.  

As I said, bunseok, bunhae, haesul, and haeseok all have similar meanings; any of which could be a translation for the word Bunkai, depending on the specific idea you want to get across.  

There are not many "organic" Korean martial arts words, they are mostly borrowed from Chinese.  In fact, Bunkai is ALSO borrowed from Chinese, into Kanji....then into Korean, so we're talking about a 3 level translation....



howard said:


> To add a thought, something I've noticed over the years is that there seem to be variations of even the most basic terms in Korean from one style to another, and even within styles, from one kwan to another. Ive seen different terms for things like the names of strikes and stances. I don't know nearly enough hangul to be able to explain the differences.


 
True, I have noticed the same thing.  Part of it is the issue of translation from Chinese to Korean (Hanja/Hanmun), part of it is trying to use native Korean words, part of it is some of the older masters simply making up words for techniques.  I've noticed a lot of that in my research and translations.  It definately makes things difficult and is the main reason that I'm always in search of a good Hanja/Hanmun resource.  But that is a whole different discussion.


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## howard (Jul 1, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Remember that when translating languages, words do not always go directly from one to the other.  Where we have one word to represent a few different ideas, another language may have 10 words with slightly different connotations.  By the same token, one word in another language may not have a direct translation to another...


Yep, I know that well... translating is a major part of my job. 

(But not to or from Korean.)


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## tsdmgk1336 (Jul 27, 2008)

Heres some books you might want to look @


Pressure point fighting 
By Rick Clark
ISBN# 0-8048-3217-X
Found @ Borders.com 

Shihan-Te
The Bunkai of Karate Kata
By Darrell Craig
ISBN# 1-886969-84-4
Found @ Borders.com as well 
thats just for starters..


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## astrobiologist (Aug 20, 2008)

Bunkia is not the word you're looking for.  It is Bunkai.  

I have no idea about the Korean translation, but if you're looking for some rgeat info or maybe even a good start in figuring out the bunkai for Tang Soo Do techniques and forms, then you should try getting in contact with Master Jay S. Penfil.  He's a great practitioner and is teaching me more than I ever thought I would know when it comes to movement and technique. 

Also, there is Master Iain Abernethy, from the UK.  He's a Wado Ryu practitioner, so he doesn't know as much about Tang Soo Do, but the principles and techniques are almost all the same.  He has a lot of information on his website about applications of the martial arts.

Hope this helps!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 21, 2008)

Graham,
Thank you for your kind words here... Training with you and your dojang is awesome. I am looking forward to being there with all of you again soon.

As Bernard stated: The Pyong Ahn Hyung are Okinawan, as are ALL of the hyung in Tang Soo Do (not Soo Bahk Do).

In my 37+ years of cross training in Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, Isshinryu, and Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu I have learned all of the hyung/kata I have found that all of these systems, and many others share many of the same hyung/kata, but perform them differently.

It isn't a matter of one or some doing them correctly while others do them incorrectly. It is a matter of understanding what the intent of each technique is when executing them. As I teach practitioners from different systems about Bunkai, Henka and Oyo I find that very few have any real understanding that goes beyond "Blocking, Kicking and Punching". Most use hyung/kata as an exercise to take them from one rank to the next, and nothing more.

Ask yourself; Does my fighting look anything like my hyung/kata?

Or; Does my hyung/kata look like traditional technique and my fighting looks more like kickboxing?

If you understand "Bunkai, Henka and Oyo", and how to apply it your fighting will look like your hyung/kata. If you don't, it won't...

If your training has been exclusively in Tang Soo Do or Tae Kwon Do and you have never been exposed to training in Okinawan Karate Jutsu, chances are good that you have no idea of what I am discussing here and may even take offense to what I am saying. Please don't take offense. You can't know what you have never been exposed to.

There are many of you who have met and trained with me in person, such as:
Bernard Redfield-Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan
Michael Pope-Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan
Peter Miles-Tae Kwon Do
Graham Lau -Tang Soo Do/Tang Soo Jutsu

If you have trained with me and are not listed here, please take a moment to sign in and let us know that you are here...

For those that I did list, please post what you found regarding Bunkai, Henka and Oyo as they pertain to hyung/kata and the way that you now view technique as a result of our training.

I will look forward to your responses...


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## MBuzzy (Aug 21, 2008)

If you are really interested in the applications for hyung, Master Penfil is an excellent resource.


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## astrobiologist (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes, MBuzzy, Master Penfil IS an excellent resource.  He's also an excellent practitioner of martial arts and an excellent person.

My father has over 22 years of training, almost solely in Tang Soo Do, and yet he is astonished by what he has learned from Master Jay S. Penfil in just the past year.  I feel, after my 19 years in the martial arts, that Master Penfil is helping me to finally begin perfecting my techniques, and I'm now beginning to fully realize the meanings of my hyung.  Just being near to Master Jay S. Penfil while he instructs seems to improve my knowledge of the martial arts.  He is truly a deep well of inspiration and knowledge.


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