# Martial Talk's GMA Martial Arts Lineages



## BigJavi973 (Mar 7, 2017)

I pretty much have taken the idea from that lineage website etc Feel free to post your lineage and see where it traces to. IMO it is very important to know where your specific Martial Art comes from. You don't want to learn from someone who learned from some guy in the back of a laundromat.  How you post it is up to you. You can post a picture, video desribing your lineage, or you can just type it out.

When giving the information, you do NOT have to provide their titles, example just as master, grandmaster, hanshi etc... Their names should be sufficient imo if you are taught by someone legit. A "title" does not make you legit. For example, I know a guy, that was an orange belt at the karate school I attend. At our school we dont promote fast so I guess he got frustrated and left went somewhere else.... that was like 4 years ago... all of a sudden he's being called "Master ......" I wont put his name out there not my concern but that was basically the example of how titles can be very misleading.

I'll give a quick example of my shotokan lineage:

Gichin Funakoshi ----> Teruyuki Okazaki ----> Maynard Miner ----> George Cofield ----> Thomas La Puppet Carroll ----> Victor Rodriguez ----> Maribel Ramos ----> Javier Guzman

I also train with my teacher's teacher, V. Rodriguez. He is also student of Vincent Cruz and Victor Mosquera. Those lineages goes as follows:

Gichin Funakoshi ---->Isao Obata/Hidetaka Nishiyama ----> Vincent Cruz ----> Victor Mosquera ----> Victor Rodriguez ----> Maribel Ramos ----> Javier Guzman

Here is a pic to help out further explanations:






So feel free to post and share! Maybe you'll run across someone that has trained in the same system/style you do or even from the same family tree! Osu!


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 7, 2017)

Carlos Gracie --> Carlson Gracie --> Carlson Gracie Jr.--> Mike O'Donnell --> Tony Dismukes (me)


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Carlos Gracie --> Carlson Gracie --> Carlson Gracie Jr.--> Mike O'Donnell --> Tony Dismukes (me)





Dont forget Mitsuyo Maeda! Osu!

and for future ref for any and all... name your style at the beginning... even if its a hybrid style and has connections to your lineage!


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2017)

That guy in the back of the laundromat could be the biggest hidden treasure in the entire region. Don't discount him just because you don't know who he is.  Some of the best training from the best people can be had in very informal situations, and some of those people are not famous.

I fully understand the lineage issues, but at the same time, sometimes it just doesn't matter.  Some lineages are almost unknown outside of their home territory, so the names would not mean anything to anyone here anyway.

I only offer these comments to give some perspective.  I'm not trying to derail the thread.  Carry on.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2017)

The thing about lineages in Chinese martial arts is a lot of people claim them based on the fact they trained with the guy a couple times. And in CMA that is not how it works. If it was I would have a lineage to the Chen Family from Chen Zhenglei, 2 lineages to Yip Man, a couple to different Bagua families and at least 3 in Xingyiquan, Heck While I'm at it I might as well claim a Chen family lineage to Chen Xiawang too because I once had a rather long, and interesting, phone conversation with Ren Guangyi about Chen Taijiquan. But the reality of lineage in the CMA world is I have none of those. So be careful when asking about lineages in CMA.

What I do have

Chen Changxing > Yang Luchan > Yang Jianhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh > My Shifu > Me

Chen Chingping > Wu Yuxiang > Li Yiyu > Hao Weizhang > Li Hsiang Yuan > Tung Ying Chieh > My Shifu > Me


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 7, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> That guy in the back of the laundromat could be the biggest hidden treasure in the entire region. Don't discount him just because you don't know who he is.  Some of the best training from the best people can be had in very informal situations, *and some of those people are not famous.*
> 
> I fully understand the lineage issues, but at the same time, sometimes it just doesn't matter.  Some lineages are almost unknown outside of their home territory, so the names would not mean anything to anyone here anyway.
> 
> I only offer these comments to give some perspective.  I'm not trying to derail the thread.  Carry on.



I never said anything about famous... and I know that 1st hand because of the constant stories that I've been told about the racism, etc. 
And yes it does matter if you are learning from someone who learned it from someone before him and not some made up bs in the basement


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 7, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> The thing about lineages in Chinese martial arts is a lot of people claim them based on the fact they trained with the guy a couple times. *And in CMA that is not how it works. If it was I would have a lineage to the Chen Family from Chen Zhenglei, 2 lineages to Yip Man, a couple to different Bagua families and at least 3 in Xingyiquan, *Heck While I'm at it I might as well claim a Chen family lineage to Chen Xiawang too because I once had a rather long, and interesting, phone conversation with Ren Guangyi about Chen Taijiquan. But the reality of lineage in the CMA world is I have none of those. So be careful when asking about lineages in CMA.
> 
> What I do have
> 
> ...



Yessir you are correct.... maybe we should implement a time frame etc... such as ... training face to face with that person for over a year or maybe two or more idk what do you think?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> Yessir you are correct.... maybe we should implement a time frame etc... such as ... training face to face with that person for over a year or maybe two or more idk what do you think?



Generally your told


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## Spinedoc (Mar 7, 2017)

My direct teacher has had two primary teachers. The current one is first.

O'Sensei (Morihei Ueshiba) >> Akira Tohei >> Cal Blanchard >> Bruce Piotroski >> ME

O'Sensei (Morihei Ueshiba) >> Koichi Tohei >> Frank Doran >> Bill McGouirk >> Bruce Piotrowski >> ME


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## CB Jones (Mar 7, 2017)

Korean Karate

Atlee Chittim-->David Jordan-->Buster Cotten--> my son.

Chittim studied under Korean instructors in Korea during the Korean War and sponsored Jhoon Rhee to come to America in 1956.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I never said anything about famous... and I know that 1st hand because of the constant stories that I've been told about the racism, etc.
> And yes it does matter if you are learning from someone who learned it from someone before him and not some made up bs in the basement


No, you just said, in the back of a laundromat.  You didn't say, "made up". 

I believe a whole lot of Chinese immigrants got low paying jobs in places like laundromats and restaurants.  Some of those immigrants were highly skilled Kung fu people, so the laundromat analogy might actually be reality. So I just wanted, as i said, to add some perspective. 

My sifu had a more open school back in the 1960s and 1970s.  Since then, he has taught a very small number of students in his back yard and garage, including me.  His name is only known in certain circles.  The system he teaches is not widely known. Given that, if people don't understand the back story, they might assume he is a fraud.  In truth, he is one of the very best, and is by far the best of the half dozen or so teachers that I have had.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2017)

I'm not very concerned with lineage, except as a way of understanding where the ideas came from. It can also be a useful way to dig backwards and find some new ways to understand techniques and principles.

My primary art is Nihon Goshin Aikido, which was founded by Morita Shodo in the 1940's. He had training in multiple arts, with the principle art being Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu. We don't know who his instructors were in other arts (reportedly Shotokan Karate, Kodokan Judo, and possibly some exposure to Ueshiba's Aikijujutsu (what it was called at the time), as well as some wrestling. Oral history (there are no written records we've ever been able to find) says his Daito-ryu instructor was Kitaro Yoshida. My lineage forks, so I'll try to clarify it.

Morita Shodo -> Richard Bowe -> Steve Weber -> Gerry Seymour
- also Steve Weber -> Joe Beckham -> Gerry Seymour
- also Steve Weber -> John Wyndham -> Gerry Seymour

I've left out a couple of Associate Instructors who were my primary instructors for a time, to keep things simpler. The convoluted forking follows a progression of who ran the school I attended. Steve Weber opened the school, and I started under him. He moved and passed the school to Joe Beckham, who later decided to focus on his larger school in the next city, so John Wyndham took over the school.


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## Steve (Mar 7, 2017)

Regarding the unknown guy in the back alley, lineage only matters if you want to document that you are learning a specific style, and it often helps you sell a product, as you can claim an association with someone else who may be well known or accomplished.  For example, if someone earns a black belt from Rickson Gracie, there is an association that is close and credible.  It's very likely that this person is a strong martial artist, even if he is not well known. 

For what it's worth, my lineage would be the following:

Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie > George Gracie > Octavio de Almeida > Moises Muradi > Giva Santana > James Foster


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2017)

I'll need to check my lineage chart, I don't remember the names prior to my sigung.  I'm not very good with Chinese names.


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## Buka (Mar 7, 2017)

This might take me a month to do. Or at least get it right.


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 7, 2017)

Buka said:


> Jesus H Tapdancing Christ, this might take me a month to do. Or at least get it right.





Flying Crane said:


> I'll need to check my lineage chart, I don't remember the names prior to my sigung.  I'm not very good with Chinese names.



take your time gentlemen!


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## ShortBridge (Mar 7, 2017)

Japanese are very different about this than Chinese. Traditionally Kung Fu was taught in the back of a laundry mat or in the basement of a restaurant after hours or on a rooftop. The place with the sign and the contracts and the viewing area is much more suspect to me.

But, I get the point - it's good to know if you're training with some guy or getting something passed down with some Providence.

My lineage tree is on my website, which can be accessed from my signature tag. I don't want to take it upon myself to post those names here because the surviving members of my lineage have not chosen to expose themselves here and I am obliged to respect that.


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## Buka (Mar 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Carlos Gracie --> Carlson Gracie --> Carlson Gracie Jr.--> Mike O'Donnell --> Tony Dismukes (me)



Oh, sure, take the easy way. 
What about the other arts you've studied? Hmmm?


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 7, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Japanese are very different about this than Chinese. Traditionally Kung Fu was taught in the back of a laundry mat or in the basement of a restaurant after hours or on a rooftop. The place with the sign and the contracts and the viewing area is much more suspect to me.
> 
> But, I get the point - it's good to know if you're training with some guy or getting something passed down with some Providence.
> 
> My lineage tree is on my website, which can be accessed from my signature tag. I don't want to take it upon myself to post those names here because the surviving members of my lineage have not chosen to expose themselves here and I am obliged to respect that.



just read it... awesome stuff man!

Regarding about the rooftops laundrys etc..... 

one main name as to the reason why:  Gus Kaparos that  green cloud kung fu guy


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## CB Jones (Mar 7, 2017)

Buka said:


> This might take me a month to do. Or at least get it right.



Fake it til you make it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 7, 2017)

Buka said:


> Oh, sure, take the easy way.
> What about the other arts you've studied? Hmmm?


That gets complicated and I don't always know all  the names in the various lineages.

Even the BJJ lineage is vastly oversimplified. It's basically just the direct line of who promoted whom leading to my current rank. If I were to post all the people I've learned from and all the people they've learned from, it would be a huge mess. I'd need at least twenty-seven full sized posters with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one.


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## Buka (Mar 7, 2017)

I'll have to do this in pieces.

Tae-Kwon- Do - Billy Blanks, under Jong Soo Park, under Choi Hong Hi

Grappling - Rickson Gracie, under Helio Gracie...under whoever taught Helio.
Romalo Barros, under Rickson Gracie, under Helio Gracie...under whoever taught Helio.

Impossible for me to trace my lineage in boxing. Most have since passed away, don't know who taught them.

Karate is gonna' take a while.


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## Buka (Mar 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That gets complicated and I don't always know all  the names in the various lineages.
> 
> Even the BJJ lineage is vastly oversimplified. It's basically just the direct line of who promoted whom leading to my current rank. If I were to post all the people I've learned from and all the people they've learned from, it would be a huge mess. I'd need at least twenty-seven full sized posters with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one.



Ya, but those would be some pretty cool posters. Fascinating, too.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2017)

Buka said:


> I'll have to do this in pieces.
> 
> Tae-Kwon- Do - Billy Blanks, under Jong Soo Park, under Choi Hong Hi
> 
> ...



You know, I once trained some Xingyi and Bagua with a guy who had a link to BP Chan and Frank Allen. I was never in the lineages but I once tried to figure out the lineage of BP Chan, and he never talked about it so that went no where. And then I saw a video of Frank Allen explaining his Xingyiquan lineage and that got so incredibly confusing I gave up trying to figure it out


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 7, 2017)

I study Isshinryu Karate, an Okinawan style.  I am a third-generation student of the founder.  Everyone who knows my sensei knows my lineage; no one else needs to know.


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## Buka (Mar 7, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I study Isshinryu Karate, an Okinawan style.  I am a third-generation student of the founder.  Everyone who knows my sensei knows my lineage; no one else needs to know.



You old fuddy duddy. We don't _need_ to know. But it's kind of fun to discuss.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2017)

Buka said:


> You old fuddy duddy. We don't _need_ to know. But it's kind of fun to discuss.




I *NEEED* to know


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## Headhunter (Mar 7, 2017)

Personally couldn't care less about lineage. Lineage to me simply means who signs your grading certificate. I train at the club I train at because it's a convenient place to train and I enjoy it there not because of who's lineage it is.

I find lineage just causes ego arguments by saying "my schools better than yours because of our lineage" which of course is untrue your teacher could've trained with the founder of your style doesn't mean he's any good of a teacher or practitioner.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 7, 2017)

Buka said:


> You old fuddy duddy. We don't _need_ to know. But it's kind of fun to discuss.



And then another goofball calls my sensei on the phone or starts sending him emails.  No thanks!  It happens enough as it is - you'd be amazed how people react to what they read on public forums.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And then another goofball calls my sensei on the phone or starts sending him emails.  No thanks!  It happens enough as it is - you'd be amazed how people react to what they read on public forums.


Alright Bill, I'll quit doing that, since you take it so personally...


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 7, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And then another goofball calls my sensei on the phone or starts sending him emails.  No thanks!  It happens enough as it is - you'd be amazed how people react to what they read on public forums.





Flying Crane said:


> Alright Bill, I'll quit doing that, since you take it so personally...



Yeah, quit bugging Bill's sensei with e-mails and phone calls. That's so impersonal and annoying. Do what I do and just show up at his house in person with a print-out of everything Bill has said online. Best to do it late at night so you know he's home. If the lights are out, just tap on the bedroom window. He'll be happy to know his student is making such an impression on people.


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## CB Jones (Mar 7, 2017)

To me sharing lineage is just a way of finding more commonalities among people on the board and maybe learn some stuff about fellow posters.

Maybe some posters find that their lineages intersect and will find that interesting.  

Maybe create more dialogue and discussions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Personally couldn't care less about lineage. Lineage to me simply means who signs your grading certificate. I train at the club I train at because it's a convenient place to train and I enjoy it there not because of who's lineage it is.
> 
> I find lineage just causes ego arguments by saying "my schools better than yours because of our lineage" which of course is untrue your teacher could've trained with the founder of your style doesn't mean he's any good of a teacher or practitioner.


Lineage doesn't cause ego arguments - ego problems do that. Lineage is just a fact, something interesting to discuss to see how different folks' training is related. Anything beyond that is people putting too much stock in what lineage "should be" IMO.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And then another goofball calls my sensei on the phone or starts sending him emails.  No thanks!  It happens enough as it is - you'd be amazed how people react to what they read on public forums.


I wouldn't. I had a bit of a run-in with someone years ago because I mentioned him in a forum. I still don't get it.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 7, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And then another goofball calls my sensei on the phone or starts sending him emails.  No thanks!  It happens enough as it is - you'd be amazed how people react to what they read on public forums.



Yep!


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## Steve (Mar 7, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I study Isshinryu Karate, an Okinawan style.  I am a third-generation student of the founder.  Everyone who knows my sensei knows my lineage; no one else needs to know.


Bill, I generally like your pugnacious attitude, but this is a very odd post.

EDIT:  LOL.  Nevermind.  I just read the rest of the thread, and while I'm glad I'm not the only one, my intent wasn't to pile on.   

But this does remind me of the old saying, "Those who know will never tell, and those who will tell will never know."  Bill's mantra.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd need at least twenty-seven full sized posters with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one.


 you know i use that line all the time and no one ever knows what the heck im saying or who officer Opie is.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> you know i use that line all the time and no one ever knows what the heck im saying or who officer Opie is.


I figured we've got enough older folks on the forum that at least a few people would get it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I figured we've got enough older folks on the forum that at least a few people would get it.


I have to admit I don't.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I have to admit I don't.


See if this helps:

_"We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
Colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
Of each one, sat down. Man came in said, "All rise." We all stood up,
And Obie stood up with the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
Pictures, and the judge walked in sat down with a seeing eye dog, and he
Sat down, we sat down. Obie looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at the
Twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows
And a paragraph on the back of each one, and looked at the seeing eye dog.
And then at twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles
And arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and began to cry,
'Cause Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American
Blind justice, and there wasn't nothing he could do about it, and the
Judge wasn't going to look at the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
Pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each
One explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us. And
We was fined $50 and had to pick up the garbage in the snow, but thats not
What I came to tell you about."_


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## Tames D (Mar 7, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Fake it til you make it.


Studying 'Ted Talks' ?


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## kuniggety (Mar 7, 2017)

Internet -> me. I have mastered being a keyboard warrior.

BJJ. Carlson Gracie -> Helio Gracie -> Rickson Gracie -> Takamasa Watanabe -> Rodrigo Taniguti -> me (blue belt) My current school is run by Nova Uniao black belts. The head instructor is Leandro Nyza of the Luiz Franca/Oswaldo Fadda lineage with me primarily learning under Jay Penn... honestly not sure who gave him his black belt. Hopefully I'll eventually get my purple from one of these guys.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 7, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> IMO it is very important to know where your specific Martial Art comes from.



Why?

You should know if it works, you should know if it's good.  But peoples lineages are a mess and often tend to just list the person that has the highest rank that they trained with, even if they actually spent 90% of their time training with someone else.

I suspect anyone that is fairly serious about martial arts and has been training a while has learnt something from a huge number of people.  Even if you spend 30 years under a single instructor, their will be a lot picked up from others.

We are also at a point where things are easy to check into.  If you are learning a technique and then start doing some youtubing and realize every other instructor seems to have different details and better theory and explanations... something is up.  You can go and compete at tournaments with other schools, you can cross train.

Lineage is a weird concept, it seems fairly unique to martial arts.  But even there, do you think anyone cares about Muhammed Ali's lineage?  Or maybe Dan Gable's?  Or if we go eastern styles, would Kimura's lineage effect his accomplishments?  Would it change your opinion of Jigoro Kano if you found out his instructors where average and nothing famous or special?

It doesn't seem to apply in other activities at all.  Anyone care what Michael Phelps Lineage is?  Who Trump studied politics under?  Where did Mark Cuban study business?

Playing connect the dots until you find someone famous serves little purpose.  Even in traditional styles where preservation is the goal, everything is documented now.  You can probably find video of the top guys in any major style at any point in the last 50-75 years doing their thing.  

What matters is you and the person coaching you.  That's it.  They could be a great instructor that came from a mediocre school, or a terrible instructor that came from a great one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> See if this helps:
> 
> _"We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
> Colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
> ...


Just barely. I haven't listened to any Arlo Guthrie in ages.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Why?
> 
> You should know if it works, you should know if it's good.  But peoples lineages are a mess and often tend to just list the person that has the highest rank that they trained with, even if they actually spent 90% of their time training with someone else.
> 
> ...


Actually, in other sports, lineage is often mentioned. A new football head coach will be identified by who he coached under, and maybe who he played under. Knowing a golfer was coached by a certain short-game coach tells you something about his or her likely approach to the short game. Knowing a basketball player started in college under a specific coach tells you something about the kind or game he has been trained to play, and what expectations he met.


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## Buka (Mar 8, 2017)

Lineages. Clan stuff. Small talk about the who, when and where. Fun to gab about, but that's about it.

To dwell on it, to make it all important.....misses the point of Martial Arts in my opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2017)

Buka said:


> Lineages. Clan stuff. Small talk about the who, when and where. Fun to gab about, but that's about it.
> 
> To dwell on it, to make it all important.....misses the point of Martial Arts in my opinion.



In some rare cases it makes a difference in CMA, usually to weed out the occasional charlatan, but it is rare. I've heard of it being used on Mainland China and a few times here and I used it twice on MT and one of those times the proof of lie came from the Yang family. But in the US it makes little difference, even when you prove the false


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 8, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> In some rare cases it makes a difference in CMA, usually to weed out the occasional charlatan, but it is rare. I've heard of it being used on Mainland China and a few times here and I used it twice on MT and one of those times the proof of lie came from the Yang family. But in the US it makes little difference, even when you prove the false


Here's how I look at it - the only way lineage can show up a charlatan is if he/she claims a lineage falsely. If someone doesn't claim a lineage, then lineage is only a matter of curiosity and intellectual pursuit. For instance, if someone claimed to teach BJJ (without claiming any specific lineage), but had never trained under a BJJ black belt or other competent instructor, they might catch some real flack....unless they actually taught really good BJJ (they and their students were of similar competence to others in BJJ). Thus, the lineage isn't really an issue unless someone claims it. Otherwise, it's their effectiveness.
_
NOTE: I don't know how someone would come to teach effective BJJ without that exposure to competent instructors, either. It's just a hypothetical extreme._


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## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2017)

My "current" lineage -
Mas Oyama - Tadashi Nakamura - Don Carter - Me

My "former" lineage -
Mas Oyama - Tadashi Nakamura - Frank Rossetti/William Reid - Tom Starr - Me

Current lineage means under my current teacher.  Former means my former teacher.  Everyone in those lineages had instruction from others, but those were their main teachers.  Nakamura did some Goju and Iado before Kyokushin, Reid was an Army boxer and dabbled in other MA at a lower level before meeting Nakamura, Rossetti was a Judo sensei before Nakamura, etc, Carter trained under Reid and Rossetti until they split from  Nakamura, etc.

It all gets messy, and just about all of it goes out the window once I'm on the floor anyway.  The most important link in the chain to me is my teacher - me.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 8, 2017)

My lineage for Southern White Crane is as follows:

Ang Liang Huat --> Dennis Ngo --> Russell Suthern --> Me

That's really as far back as I can track, as Master Ang had a number of different teachers including supposed connections to the Tee Family. Each teacher taught him a different style which he then combined together to form what is now the tiger-crane combination of southern white crane.


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

Guys please understand that lineages are important mainly because it weeds out the McDojo's that are out there. And ya know there are ALOT of them.


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Why?
> 
> You should know if it works, you should know if it's good.



I see you teach karate at your school... What style of karate and who did you get your kuro obi from?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Here's how I look at it - the only way lineage can show up a charlatan is if he/she claims a lineage falsely. If someone doesn't claim a lineage, then lineage is only a matter of curiosity and intellectual pursuit. For instance, if someone claimed to teach BJJ (without claiming any specific lineage), but had never trained under a BJJ black belt or other competent instructor, they might catch some real flack....unless they actually taught really good BJJ (they and their students were of similar competence to others in BJJ). Thus, the lineage isn't really an issue unless someone claims it. Otherwise, it's their effectiveness.
> _
> NOTE: I don't know how someone would come to teach effective BJJ without that exposure to competent instructors, either. It's just a hypothetical extreme._



The times in CMA I am referring to are lineage claims that are false and were made to gain students and dollars....or Yuan in a few cases. Claims to Yang family lineage, one false claim to being a member of the Yang Taijiquan family a few claims to Chen Taiji family lineages, there were 2 made to my Taiji shifu as well that were false.and one to Wang Xiangzhai (Yiquan) that was on mainland that resulted in a public apology for making false claims.., which was made in lieu of receiving a beating. All were made for marketing purposes.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I see you teach karate at your school... What style of karate and who did you get your kuro obi from?



i haven't taught a karate program in almost 15 years now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> Guys please understand that lineages are important mainly because it weeds out the McDojo's that are out there. And ya know there are ALOT of them.


Does it, really? I could create a McDojo with my background, or I could teach to deliver skill in a useful way (to meet the needs of the students, whatever those needs are). Lineage doesn't stop that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 8, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> The times in CMA I am referring to are lineage claims that are false and were made to gain students and dollars....or Yuan in a few cases. Claims to Yang family lineage, one false claim to being a member of the Yang Taijiquan family a few claims to Chen Taiji family lineages, there were 2 made to my Taiji shifu as well that were false.and one to Wang Xiangzhai (Yiquan) that was on mainland that resulted in a public apology for making false claims.., which was made in lieu of receiving a beating. All were made for marketing purposes.


Yes, that's the kind of stuff I was referring to. Lineage is useful for debunking false claims of lineage. That's a practice that most of us know is more common than we wish, so that makes some lineage tracking useful, and perhaps necessary.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

The oral traditions of our system claim that it originated in Tibet in the 1400s, by a monk named Ordator.  There are a number of unknown generations in there, but it passed thru a fellow named Dorawkitan, who developed it further.  Then a lama named Sing Lung brought it into Southern China.  His student, Wong Lum Hoi taught many people, including Ng Siu Chung, who established the White Crane lineage from the parent Tibetan lama system.  He also had another teacher, Chu Chi-Yiu.  From Ng Siu Chung, it passed to Tang Cha Meng and Luk Chi Fu, among many others.  These two people were both teachers of my sifu, Quentin Fong.  For a number of years I was a student of Bryant Fong, who was also a student of Quentin.  Bryant took me to meet Sifu Quentin, and I was allowed to become his student.

So, Ordator - ??- Dorawkitan -??- Sing Lung - Wong Lum Hoi and Chu Chi-Yiu - Ng Siu Chung - Tang Cha Meng and Luk Chi Fu -Quentin Fong - me.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> Guys please understand that lineages are important mainly because it weeds out the McDojo's that are out there. And ya know there are ALOT of them.



Not at all.  I suspect there are large number of what you would call "McDojos" that use lineage to prop themselves up and avoid questions to their methods.


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

Style - Jones-itsu-who-hit-u

Founder and OG.


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> i haven't taught a karate program in almost 15 years now.



aaahhh I see you are a Judoka.... Kodokan???


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> Guys please understand that lineages are important mainly because it weeds out the McDojo's that are out there. And ya know there are ALOT of them.


first you would have to define a Mcdojo.  however i can name quite a few schools that would deserve that name and they are from authentic okinawan linages.  i could also name a few that the teachers came from mcdojos that are actually ok.   lineages mean nothing. you could have trained under Mas Oyama , Funikoshi and Miyomoto Musashi  but if you suck you suck.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> aaahhh I see you are a Judoka.... Kodokan???



Nope, what difference does it make anyways?  

And this is exactly the issue I have with thinking lineage is important, instead of actually discussing the matter you whip out a tape measure and look for something unrelated to the issue to measure.


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Nope, what difference does it make anyways?
> 
> And this is exactly the issue I have with thinking lineage is important, instead of actually discussing the matter you whip out a tape measure and look for something unrelated to the issue to measure.



so what is it that you teach exactly? and dont go say "mma"


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> first you would have to define a Mcdojo.  however i can name quite a few schools that would deserve that name and they are from authentic okinawan linages.  i could also name a few that the teachers came from mcdojos that are actually ok.   lineages mean nothing. you could have trained under Mas Oyama , Funikoshi and Miyomoto Musashi  but if you suck you suck.


 yea thats true if you suck... you suck!


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Internet -> me. I have mastered being a keyboard warrior.
> 
> BJJ. Carlson Gracie -> Helio Gracie -> Rickson Gracie -> Takamasa Watanabe -> Rodrigo Taniguti -> me (blue belt) My current school is run by Nova Uniao black belts. The head instructor is Leandro Nyza of the Luiz Franca/Oswaldo Fadda lineage with me primarily learning under Jay Penn... honestly not sure who gave him his black belt. Hopefully I'll eventually get my purple from one of these guys.



nice... Ive been thinking about going into BJJ myself... theres savarese BJJ who's under rafael lovato jr. in nj


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## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

Man, I was hoping for a thread that we could see peoples lineage and maybe see whose lineages intersect and who are connected by a common instructor.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> so what is it that you teach exactly? and dont go say "mma"



Why do you care?  And yes, MMA.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 8, 2017)

Chow, Ed Parker, Skip Hancock, Me.


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Why do you care?  And yes, MMA.



So who did you get your black belt from and in what style?


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Man, I was hoping for a thread that we could see peoples lineage and maybe see whose lineages intersect and who are connected by a common instructor.



I was hoping that as well.... but some here are like "we dont care abotu lineages" etc etc "you should know what works". ALot of people dont get to "know" what works because most have never been in dire situations.


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## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> Guys please understand that lineages are important mainly because it weeds out the McDojo's that are out there. And ya know there are ALOT of them.



In addition to the several other people that quoted you...

What if the lineage is McDojo lineage?  Does it not stop McDojos?

There's no shortage of people willing to "sell out;" McDojos are around for a reason - there's a supply and just as importantly a demand.  People will lower their standards and sell rank to keep the doors open, put food on the table, a nice car in a nice driveway of a nice house, etc.  And there are people who have no work ethic and would rather be handed something they can artificially make themselves feel good about rather than earn it the hard way.  Many people want the trophy for a display item, rather than actually having to earn it.

Who am I to make the rules that ban McDojos?  Live and let live.  The 3 McDojos I pass along the way to my dojo have zero bearing on what goes on in my training.


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## Buka (Mar 8, 2017)

I spent several hours yesterday and this morning, but I gave up trying to trace my Karate lineage. Too much of a hodgepodge to trace accurately. We have a lot of boxing theory and technique, so I suppose that could be traced back to England, or maybe the ancient Greeks. Some of my Karate instructors trace back to Okinawa, some to Japan, some to Korea, some to the Philippines, some to God knows where.

I'm just a mutt.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 8, 2017)

Buka said:


> I spent several hours yesterday and this morning, but I gave up trying to trace my Karate lineage. Too much of a hodgepodge to trace accurately. We have a lot of boxing theory and technique, so I suppose that could be traced back to England, or maybe the ancient Greeks. Some of my Karate instructors trace back to Okinawa, some to Japan, some to Korea, some to the Philippines, some to God knows where.
> 
> I'm just a mutt.



Is that why you claim to be "the bastard son of American Martial Arts?"


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## Buka (Mar 8, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Is that why you claim to be "the bastard son of American Martial Arts?"



It is indeed. Proud of it, too.


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## frank raud (Mar 8, 2017)

Hmmm.  Judo
Yoshio Katsuta -Mas Takahashi-Derek Robertson-me.

Yoshio Katsuta came to Canada in 1934 as a 4th Dan, had trained at the Kodokan, but no reference to who his instructors were.  he passed away as a 6th Dan in 1997. Mas Takahashi is a 8th dan in  Kodokan judo.

Can-ryu jiu-jitsu  Georges Sylvain-founder-John Therien-me. Of course I trained under many instructors under John Therien and even took a few classes from Georges Sylvain. I can trace his studies before forming the art in the 1960's


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## frank raud (Mar 8, 2017)

Combatives is more difficult to trace lineage. Do have one cool lineage that goes back to the 1908 Olympics.
S.V.Bacon- Stan "Sonny " Bissell-Ben Temkin-Matt Temkin - me.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2017)

Buka said:


> I spent several hours yesterday and this morning, but I gave up trying to trace my Karate lineage. Too much of a hodgepodge to trace accurately. We have a lot of boxing theory and technique, so I suppose that could be traced back to England, or maybe the ancient Greeks. Some of my Karate instructors trace back to Okinawa, some to Japan, some to Korea, some to the Philippines, some to God knows where.
> 
> I'm just a mutt.



If you really get into Lineages in Chinese martial arts, they go back a long long way, get rather complicated and at some point hard to prove.

Taijiquan is. by many, believed to go back to a mystical monk named Zhang Sanfeng. But if you want to trace it from now to him (if he existed) there will be big gaps and incredibly long branches away from Taiji because the Chen family knew a martial art before they allegedly developed Taijiquan. And it is thought it was likely a Paoqui, and that if that is the case it is very possible it came from Shaolin. So you are better of not going back to far.

In my lineage I could have also thrown in TKD to General Choi and Jujutsu to some unknown guy in Japan, then goto my first shifu...I have no idea who in China to link any of the arts I learned from him to, heck I even did a little time in a Fred Villari school. Too much to keep track of.... I stick with the Taiji lineage from Tnug Ying Chieh, I'm in it and it is easier 

So you're not alone in this messed up lineage thing, that's for sure.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 8, 2017)

Shuai Chiao:

Ping Jing-Yi -> Zhang Feng-Yan -> Chang Tung-Sheng -> Kung Fu Wang (me)

Long fist:

Han Ching-Tan -> Li Mao-Ching -> Kung Fu Wang (me)


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Korean Karate
> 
> Atlee Chittim-->David Jordan-->Buster Cotten--> my son.
> 
> Chittim studied under Korean instructors in Korea during the Korean War and sponsored Jhoon Rhee to come to America in 1956.



I would be interested to see if anyone else here traces back to Chittim.

Also, Jhoon Rhee taught under the name Korean Karate, Tang Soo Do, and TKD at different times so it would be interesting if anyone else traces back to him and what style they use.


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Combatives is more difficult to trace lineage. Do have one cool lineage that goes back to the 1908 Olympics.
> S.V.Bacon- Stan "Sonny " Bissell-Ben Temkin-Matt Temkin - me.



I can check when I have time if you want!


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I was hoping that as well.... but some here are like "we dont care abotu lineages" etc etc "you should know what works". ALot of people dont get to "know" what works because most have never been in dire situations.



Figuring out what works and what doesn't requires a context.  If you compete it's was to figure out what works in that context.  If your goal is to get in shape, you can figure out what works.

In no context would I ever think "It works because my teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teacher said it does, and he was kinda famous."  Everyone one of those teachers would have made changes to things, intentionally or not.  So even if the guy at the top of your pyramid was infallible, it's a game of telephone and messages change.

If what you do has no way of determining its functionality for the goals you have with it it's a dead art, lineage can't save that.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> If you really get into Lineages in Chinese martial arts, they go back a long long way, get rather complicated and at some point hard to prove.
> 
> Taijiquan is. by many, believed to go back to a mystical monk named Zhang Sanfeng. But if you want to trace it from now to him (if he existed) there will be big gaps and incredibly long branches away from Taiji because the Chen family knew a martial art before they allegedly developed Taijiquan. And it is thought it was likely a Paoqui, and that if that is the case it is very possible it came from Shaolin. So you are better of not going back to far.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, it can get complicated.  I was just listing my lineage for what I train now.  I too have trained in a few different things, kenpo, capoeira, wing chun, and since you named Fred Villari, I'll go one better and admit that I trained for a bit with a Shaolin-do guy, from the Sin The lineage.  Yeah, I did that.

But these all have a lineage that I could trace, to a degree.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh yeah, it can get complicated.  I was just listing my lineage for what I train now.  I too have trained in a few different things, kenpo, capoeira, wing chun, and since you named Fred Villari, I'll go one better and admit that I trained for a bit with a Shaolin-do guy, from the Sin The lineage.  Yeah, I did that.
> 
> But these all have a lineage that I could trace, to a degree.



you know who started with the shaolin do guy? The dude that did black belt jones and enter the dragon... kelly....


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> you know who started with the shaolin do guy? The dude that did black belt jones and enter the dragon... kelly....



and then he swiched to Okinawan Karate


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> you know who started with the shaolin do guy? The dude that did black belt jones and enter the dragon... kelly....


I had not heard that.  I thought he was kenpo under Steve Saunders, who I think changed his name to Steve Muhammad, if memory serves.  Perhaps he did both?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I had not heard that.  I thought he was kenpo under Steve Saunders, who I think changed his name to Steve Muhammad, if memory serves.  Perhaps he did both?



If Wiki is correct Okinawan Karate under Parker Shelton, Nate Patton, and Gordon Doversola


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> If Wiki is correct Okinawan Karate under Parker Shelton, Nate Patton, and Gordon Doversola


I think in Enter the Dragon, the scene where he visits his school before leaving for Mr. Han's island, that might have been Steve Muhammad.  Maybe I just assumed he actually trained with him.


----------



## kuniggety (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> nice... Ive been thinking about going into BJJ myself... theres savarese BJJ who's under rafael lovato jr. in nj



You should drop by and check it out. There's no way to know whether you'll like it until you hop onto the mats.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I had not heard that.  I thought he was kenpo under Steve Saunders, who I think changed his name to Steve Muhammad, if memory serves.  Perhaps he did both?



yea pretty much started with shaolin do at 1st... at least that's what I read a while back when I was reading up on that guy


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## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I think in Enter the Dragon, the scene where he visits his school before leaving for Mr. Han's island, that might have been Steve Muhammad.  Maybe I just assumed he actually trained with him.



yes you are absolutely correct! Cant believe I almost forgot that I should slap myself silly smh


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 8, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> You should drop by and check it out. There's no way to know whether you'll like it until you hop onto the mats.



I actually do like it... I have a friend that does bjj we spared but I was a bit bigger than him and since Im always reading I was able to keep my weight strickly on his chest ahaha but he wasnt a seasoned vet if not I probably woulda been in trouble


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I think in Enter the Dragon, the scene where he visits his school before leaving for Mr. Han's island, that might have been Steve Muhammad.  Maybe I just assumed he actually trained with him.



Just looked up Steve Muhammad, impressive guy


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just looked up Steve Muhammad, impressive guy


It's funny, I tend to forget that a lot of the answers to these questions are quickly accessible.  I just sit around wondering, all the time...


----------



## frank raud (Mar 8, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I can check when I have time if you want!





Flying Crane said:


> It's funny, I tend to forget that a lot of the answers to these questions are quickly accessible.  I just sit around wondering, all the time...


Pre-Google mind, or just really old.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Pre-Google mind, or just really old.


Well, when I shave my beard I still get carded buying alcohol.


----------



## Buka (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I think in Enter the Dragon, the scene where he visits his school before leaving for Mr. Han's island, that might have been Steve Muhammad.  Maybe I just assumed he actually trained with him.



Steve Sanders at the time. I love that scene in the movie.

He had really fast hands in real life. Blazing. I think he was a Police Officer, Swat guy, in California somewhere.


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## Hyoho (Mar 8, 2017)

Seems some people are getting the word 'lineage' mixed up with "The guy I learned from".

Black belts have nothing whatsoever to do with lineage. It's either hereditary or 'complete transmission'


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## kuniggety (Mar 8, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Seems some people are getting the word 'lineage' mixed up with "The guy I learned from".
> 
> Black belts have nothing whatsoever to do with lineage. It's either hereditary or 'complete transmission'



That would depend on the system. In BJJ, lineage is often used to describe who awarded a black belt to who.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 8, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Seems some people are getting the word 'lineage' mixed up with "The guy I learned from".
> 
> Black belts have nothing whatsoever to do with lineage. It's either hereditary or 'complete transmission'


That's one way of defining lineage.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Seems some people are getting the word 'lineage' mixed up with "The guy I learned from".
> 
> Black belts have nothing whatsoever to do with lineage. It's either hereditary or 'complete transmission'


I am not a Disciple with full transmission of the complete system, so I am not a lineage-holder.  However, I do have a place within the lineage, as a student of someone.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> The oral traditions of our system claim that it originated in Tibet in the 1400s, by a monk named Ordator.  There are a number of unknown generations in there, but it passed thru a fellow named Dorawkitan, who developed it further.  Then a lama named Sing Lung brought it into Southern China.  His student, Wong Lum Hoi taught many people, including Ng Siu Chung, who established the White Crane lineage from the parent Tibetan lama system.  He also had another teacher, Chu Chi-Yiu.  From Ng Siu Chung, it passed to Tang Cha Meng and Luk Chi Fu, among many others.  These two people were both teachers of my sifu, Quentin Fong.  For a number of years I was a student of Bryant Fong, who was also a student of Quentin.  Bryant took me to meet Sifu Quentin, and I was allowed to become his student.
> 
> So, Ordator - ??- Dorawkitan -??- Sing Lung - Wong Lum Hoi and Chu Chi-Yiu - Ng Siu Chung - Tang Cha Meng and Luk Chi Fu -Quentin Fong - me.



Going from Sing Lung ... 
Sing Lung --> Wong Lum Hoi 
                       Wong Lam Yan --> 
                                                     Jyu Jik Chyuhn --> 
                                                                           --> Chan Tai San 
                                                                                   --> Steve Ventura (Chan Chiu Mo)
                                                                                                  --> Russel Feldman
                                                                                                              --> Me


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 8, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I am not a Disciple with full transmission of the complete system, so I am not a lineage-holder.  However, I do have a place within the lineage, as a student of someone.


And not all arts have any such thing as "full transmission", in any formal sense. There are instructors, and that's about where it stops.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And not all arts have any such thing as "full transmission", in any formal sense. There are instructors, and that's about where it stops.


Well I can say that my headmaster never taught me all he knew although I am fully licenced to hand on a tradition. A school is the intellectual property of its head and he will only licence those who are good enough. Thing is there is 'grey area' in whatever we do open for his interpretation. We can only hope to carry things on and if there are writings to go along with it all the better. The founder of one of the schools I teach always said, "Without adaptatation'. It's a pity they don't all say that as some people adapt because they can't do the original and then call it "their own". I practice and teach Koryu as well as Genbudo. Everyone is a student. And as long as you think that you will still advance.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 8, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well I can say that my headmaster never taught me all he knew although I am fully licenced to hand on a tradition. A school is the intellectual property of its head and he will only licence those who are good enough. Thing is there is 'grey area' in whatever we do open for his interpretation. We can only hope to carry things on and if there are writings to go along with it all the better. The founder of one of the schools I teach always said, "Without adaptatation'. It's a pity they don't all say that as some people adapt because they can't do the original and then call it "their own". I practice and teach Koryu as well as Genbudo. Everyone is a student. And as long as you think that you will still advance.



What if their adaptation improves the art?

How many styles would not exist if there had been no adaptations throughout history?


----------



## kuniggety (Mar 9, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I actually do like it... I have a friend that does bjj we spared but I was a bit bigger than him and since Im always reading I was able to keep my weight strickly on his chest ahaha but he wasnt a seasoned vet if not I probably woulda been in trouble



Sign up then! I'd probably be in way less shape than I am right now without it. I think it's the only time I've ever really had fun while working out, aside from the occasional ridiculously awful sports game with my coworkers.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> What if their adaptation improves the art?
> 
> How many styles would not exist if there had been no adaptations throughout history?



Waza were for killing people. You have to kill somebody to try out your adaptation. The point is we trying to keep alive tradition. Nobody uses this stuff any more. The grey area alone and adding ones own character to fundamentals is enough to make things look very different. Teaching/learning these things is a very personal thing. One has disciples not students. We teach heart, spirit and above obligation to one's teacher. To me obligation is one of the most important parts. Any idiot can go off, do his own thing and give it a new name. Good teachers come in waves and then occasionally a born artist/fighter comes along to show us a new one.   

The word style is English. In Japan they don't refer to a school as "a style". It can be a "Ha" (family offshoot) sanctioned by the headmaster. I was offered a Ha but turned it down. I saw little point. Might work for a few generations but then loses touch with the original concept.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well I can say that my headmaster never taught me all he knew although I am fully licenced to hand on a tradition. A school is the intellectual property of its head and he will only licence those who are good enough. Thing is there is 'grey area' in whatever we do open for his interpretation. We can only hope to carry things on and if there are writings to go along with it all the better. The founder of one of the schools I teach always said, "Without adaptatation'. It's a pity they don't all say that as some people adapt because they can't do the original and then call it "their own". I practice and teach Koryu as well as Genbudo. Everyone is a student. And as long as you think that you will still advance.


I'm not sure how that is related to your prior statement that lineage is only carried through "full transmission". My point was that the idea of "full transmission" doesn't exist in all arts. Some (like NGA) have a fairly short core curriculum, all of which is shared well before shodan, and the rest is adaptation to circumstances, based on the principles. Others (like BJJ) have a constantly evolving set of techniques beyond the basics, so nobody ever actually knows them all. In both of those situations (and likely some others), there is no point of "full transmission" to speak of as a delineation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Waza were for killing people. You have to kill somebody to try out your adaptation. The point is we trying to keep alive tradition. Nobody uses this stuff any more. The grey area alone and adding ones own character to fundamentals is enough to make things look very different. Teaching/learning these things is a very personal thing. One has disciples not students. We teach heart, spirit and above obligation to one's teacher. To me obligation is one of the most important parts. Any idiot can go off, do his own thing and give it a new name. Good teachers come in waves and then occasionally a born artist/fighter comes along to show us a new one.
> 
> The word style is English. In Japan they don't refer to a school as "a style". It can be a "Ha" (family offshoot) sanctioned by the headmaster. I was offered a Ha but turned it down. I saw little point. Might work for a few generations but then loses touch with the original concept.


I don't share that viewpoint, at all. There's no reason anyone can't change, blend, or refine an art. Circumstances change. Students' goals change. Learners' needs change. Arts should change, too. And if the person teaching it changes it enough, it becomes a different something and sometimes needs a new name to differentiate it and reduce confusion. I can't speak to the Japanese tradition of how a new offshoot was or is handled, and I'm not sure that's material to how it is handled elsewhere. There's no reason a person needs the permission of their instructor to create an off-shoot, though it's nice if they have it.

I'm not really trying to keep alive tradition - that's not my purpose. I do some of that to maintain links to the larger art and because it's what I'm comfortable with, but that's about it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Any idiot can go off, do his own thing and give it a new name. Good teachers come in waves and then occasionally a born artist/fighter comes along to show us a new one.


If you just teach exactly what your teacher taught you. You are a good "copy machine" and you make no contribution to your MA system. No matter how many books that you have read, if you don't write your own book, you are only a "reader" and you are not a "writer".

In 

- traditional hip throw, you use your hip to bounce your opponent's body off the ground. 
- modified hip throw, you raise from a low horse stance into a high horse stance to lift your opponent's body off the ground.

Both methods work well on the mat.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you just teach exactly what your teacher taught you. You are a good "copy machine" and you make no contribution to your MA system. No matter how many books that you have read, if you don't write your own book, you are only a "reader" and you are not a "writer".


Moreover, assuming your instructor made the art "his", you are now trying to teach and perform his personal version of the art. Since you are not him, it is not optimized for you. You are doing a sub-optimal version of the art. And now you're trying to transmit that to the next generation of student. Over time, this rigidity degrades the art.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Moreover, assuming your instructor made the art "his", you are now trying to teach and perform his personal version of the art. Since you are not him, it is not optimized for you. You are doing a sub-optimal version of the art. And now you're trying to transmit that to the next generation of student. Over time, this rigidity degrades the art.


In your form, you may have a just a "right side kick". After your right side kick, you can add a "left spin back fist". After you have rotated your body to your left, if you add a "right roundhouse, right hook", you can make your form much more interested to train. So a "side kick" has been changed into "side kick. back fist, round house kick, hook punch".

Even your MA style doesn't have roundhouse kick and hook punch, now you have just added both into your system. 1000 years from today, someone will say, "1000 years ago, Mr ... introduced roundhouse kick and hook punch into our system."


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In your form, you may have a just a "right side kick". After your right side kick, you can add a "left spin back fist". After you have rotated your body to your left, if you add a "right roundhouse, right hook", you can make your form much more interested to train. So a "side kick" has been changed into "side kick. back fist, round house kick, hook punch".
> 
> Even your MA style doesn't have roundhouse kick and hook punch, now you have just added both into your system. 1000 years from today, someone will say, "1000 years ago, Mr ... introduced roundhouse kick and hook punch into our system."


I'm pretty sure that 1,000 years from now, people will be saying something like, "A secretive monk, trained in Managedo (twisted over the years from "Management Consulting"), added secret techniques and buried them inside these forms. Only his private students ever learned them, and I can teach them to you."


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm pretty sure that 1,000 years from now, people will be saying something like, "A secretive monk, trained in Managedo (twisted over the years from "Management Consulting"), added secret techniques and buried them inside these forms. Only his private students ever learned them, and I can teach them to you."


The first time that I saw

- TKD spin hook kick, I changed my backward floor sweep into it.
- MT flying knee, I changed my jump front kick into it.

After my generation, nobody can say that CMA doesn't have "spin hook kick" and "flying knee".


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm pretty sure that 1,000 years from now, people will be saying something like, "A secretive monk, trained in Managedo (twisted over the years from "Management Consulting"), added secret techniques and buried them inside these forms. Only his private students ever learned them, and I can teach them to you."



I can see it now.....ah, you have the bone structure of a Managedo Master for $? I can sale you this training manual for the Master gpseymore's Buddhist palm.

Lol


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

If we respect the tradition, today we are still using this,








and not this.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

Well come on, there are reasons why the goal in a system would be to preserve.  Particularly if it is a weapon system with an archaic weapon that no longer has relevance in modern society. That is a slice of history that is being preserved.

For other systems with a focus on practical use in the modern world, change and adaptation is more readily embraced.

And I am sure there are plenty of systems that are in between.  And just because an old method is being preserved, does not automatically mean that it no longer has useful relevance, or does not give effective combat skills.

I've got to chuckle when people say that something must change or must adapt.  Well, not it does not, not automatically.  That old method that was figured out or that developed 300 years ago, might well be kick-*** today if people understand it properly.  It might have lost none of its relevance.  Perhaps those who think it needs to adapt really do not understand it, and maybe those people would be better off to do something else.   Not every system is a good match for everyone.  But that doesn't mean an old system is no longer effective, or no longer relevant.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well come on, there are reasons why the goal in a system would be to preserve.  Particularly if it is a weapon system with an archaic weapon that no longer has relevance in modern society. That is a slice of history that is being preserved.
> 
> For other systems with a focus on practical use in the modern world, change and adaptation is more readily embraced.
> 
> ...


The issue is that over-preserving (trying to do only exactly what you learned from someone) leads to loss of material in an art, since no teacher will ever actually transmit all they know. There's nothing wrong with preserving, so long as it's not an attempt to preserve without change. I'll allow that preservation without significant change may be workable for a very small set of material (a couple of fairly simple forms, for instance).

As for archaic weapons and other performance material not meant for practical use, even those can evolve over time. And even those can degrade to lose important principles.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The issue is that over-preserving (trying to do only exactly what you learned from someone) leads to loss of material in an art, since no teacher will ever actually transmit all they know. There's nothing wrong with preserving, so long as it's not an attempt to preserve without change. I'll allow that preservation without significant change may be workable for a very small set of material (a couple of fairly simple forms, for instance).
> 
> As for archaic weapons and other performance material not meant for practical use, even those can evolve over time. And even those can degrade to lose important principles.


This may be true or may not be true, it depends on the circumstances.  Likely you may be judging what others are doing without understanding it yourself.  So how would you know what was held back By a teacher three generations ago?

What works for you is great for you.  What works for others is great for them.  And they may be irreconcilable, and that is fine.

It's just kind of weird to me that sometimes people see terms like "koryo" or "traditional" or someone says they are preserving a system or a heritage as it has been handed down, and there is this automatic assumption that, well, it just MUST be irrelevant in modern society.

Well no, that may well not be true, plain and simple.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> This may be true or may not be true, it depends on the circumstances.  Likely you may be judging what others are doing without understanding it yourself.  So how would you know what was held back By a teacher three generations ago?
> 
> What works for you is great for you.  What works for others is great for them.  And they may be irreconcilable, and that is fine.
> 
> ...


My understanding of the koryu approach (from what Chris Parker has said) is that they maintain the tradition and principles, but don't attempt to maintiain it entirely without change.

I never said something becomes irrelevant in the modern world because it is maintained. I said if it is maintained too rigidly, the human inability to pass it along exactly will cause it to degrade (incremental loss unaccompanied by incremental gain). Given enough degradation,  it may become irrelevant for the original context.

The comment about what was held back (or even forgotten) 3 generations ago is actually my point. Something did not make it across that gap, guaranteed. If nobody seeks to tweak the system from one generation to the next, then nothing is replacing what is lost. In some cases, later generations are likely to "discover" material that once was part of the system, but was lost in transmission. It was found once because it fits within the principles of the art, so if it's effective, it will likely be discovered again for the same reasons.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My understanding of the koryu approach (from what Chris Parker has said) is that they maintain the tradition and principles, but don't attempt to maintiain it entirely without change.
> 
> I never said something becomes irrelevant in the modern world because it is maintained. I said if it is maintained too rigidly, the human inability to pass it along exactly will cause it to degrade (incremental loss unaccompanied by incremental gain). Given enough degradation,  it may become irrelevant for the original context.
> 
> The comment about what was held back (or even forgotten) 3 generations ago is actually my point. Something did not make it across that gap, guaranteed. If nobody seeks to tweak the system from one generation to the next, then nothing is replacing what is lost. In some cases, later generations are likely to "discover" material that once was part of the system, but was lost in transmission. It was found once because it fits within the principles of the art, so if it's effective, it will likely be discovered again for the same reasons.


Sure, I understand what you are saying and they may be valid points there.  But what is to be done about it?  It is a method that you may not approve of, depending on some factors, but If you don't train in the method, you cannot make the judgement, you don't have the experience to know if those factors are problematic.  

It really does boil down to different strokes for different folks.   I can't tell you how many things I see in the martial arts that I feel are pointless.  But it's different strokes, i guess it works for them.


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My understanding of the koryu approach (from what Chris Parker has said) is that they maintain the tradition and principles, but don't attempt to maintiain it entirely without change.
> 
> I never said something becomes irrelevant in the modern world because it is maintained. I said if it is maintained too rigidly, the human inability to pass it along exactly will cause it to degrade (incremental loss unaccompanied by incremental gain). Given enough degradation,  it may become irrelevant for the original context.
> 
> The comment about what was held back (or even forgotten) 3 generations ago is actually my point. Something did not make it across that gap, guaranteed. If nobody seeks to tweak the system from one generation to the next, then nothing is replacing what is lost. In some cases, later generations are likely to "discover" material that once was part of the system, but was lost in transmission. It was found once because it fits within the principles of the art, so if it's effective, it will likely be discovered again for the same reasons.


I don't know about koryu, but I can respect that there are many reasons to learn an art.  I have said in the past that I define traditional styles as those where the effectiveness of a technique is less important than how the technique is performed.   nothing wrong with that at all.  Doesn't mean a technique is ineffective.  Rather, it means that efficacy isn't th number one concern.

I can easily imagine that a traditional art may value a faithful transmission of the entire system over all other concerns.  There's no wrong or right in that.   And in a style like this, lineage may matter a great deal, as it speaks to authenticity.

This is just one legit reason lineage matters.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I've got to chuckle when people say that something must change or must adapt.


"Add" is different from "change".

boxing + single leg > boxing
wrestling + side kick > wrestling
Judo + flying knee > Judo
wife + girl friend > wife


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> I don't know about koryu, but I can respect that there are many reasons to learn an art.  I have said in the past that I define traditional styles as those where the effectiveness of a technique is less important than how the technique is performed.   nothing wrong with that at all.  Doesn't mean a technique is ineffective.  Rather, it means that efficacy isn't th number one concern.
> 
> I can easily imagine that a traditional art may value a faithful transmission of the entire system over all other concerns.  There's no wrong or right in that.   And in a style like this, lineage may matter a great deal, as it speaks to authenticity.
> 
> This is just one legit reason lineage matters.


I can see that as a fair working definition in some cases.  In my experience with the Chinese methods, it seems there is less focus on EXACT transmission than what you perhaps see in the Japanese koryu.  Accurate transmission is important because the system is seen to work and be highly functional, so one does not want to mess it up.  However, exact transmission isn't really important; changes can and do happen.  I've seen my sifu make a change on the spot, with a comment like, "do it this way now, it's better."  I feel confident that the original method that may or may not have originated in the 1400s (according to oral tradition) looked rather different from the system I practice today.

My definition of a traditional art, in the Chinese methods, is more along the lines of, a system that has been passed down several generations (exactly how many is kind of nebulous) and has passed the test of time and shows itself to still be a highly functional and effective method.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> "Add" is different from "change".
> 
> boxing + single leg > boxing
> wrestling + side kick > wrestling
> ...


I also chuckle when people say we MUST add this or that.


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> "Add" is different from "change".
> 
> boxing + single leg > boxing
> wrestling + side kick > wrestling
> ...


Depends upon the criteria for evaluation.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you just teach exactly what your teacher taught you. You are a good "copy machine" and you make no contribution to your MA system. No matter how many books that you have read, if you don't write your own book, you are only a "reader" and you are not a "writer".
> 
> In
> 
> ...


Who copies? Your teacher hands on to you the fundamentals. In turn we add our own character to that. Where many people go wrong is they try to add character before they fully understand those fundamentals. Just how much should we study those fundamentals? Most of the arts are about repetition and as Musashi said "Ten thousand times is still not enough". It's far too easy to add our own quirks to what we do. We should spend a lifetime trying to remove them, not 'add them'.

If you are experienced enough and watch someone perform and appreciate those fundamentals with their added character. If you can't see that? You still need to learn a lot more.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not really trying to keep alive tradition - that's not my purpose. I do some of that to maintain links to the larger art and because it's what I'm comfortable with, but that's about it.



 Well it has to be my opinion as I do lead and head one classical art and am licenced to teach another. My headmasters taught me something they wanted to hand down. First and foremost is my obligation to them. As they passed on that obligation is even deeper. The answer is in my sig. We have philosophical teachings as well as the art itself.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If we respect the tradition, today we are still using this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Smart answer" But my teacher would never talk on the phone. He would always want to sit down and discuss things face to face. He had no trust in phones. Problem is nowadays there are too many people that think like smartphones with an easy answer and a 'shortcut'. Do you really consider the arts to be like an electrical appliance?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> Depends upon the criteria for evaluation.


To say that a boxer trains single leg can make his boxing "un-pure" just make no sense to me.

- We boxers don't do single leg.
- Single leg is against the boxing principle.
- Single leg will make boxing un-pure.
- ...

boxing + single leg > boxing


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Do you really consider the arts to be like an electrical appliance?


Will you say that the following is bad idea?

- A boxer adds wrestling skill into his training.
- A wrestler adds boxing skill into his training.

boxing + wrestling > boxing
wrestling + boxing > wrestling


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To say that a boxer trains single leg can make his boxing "un-pure" just make no sense to me.
> 
> - We boxers don't do single leg.
> - Single leg is against the boxing principle.
> ...


Well sure, a boxer can learn takedowns and anything else he wants.  Or not.  It's his choice and either choice is right for him, if that is what he wants to do.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 9, 2017)

I've always liked this quote from Atlee Chittim:

Mr. Chittim is remembered for the following quotation found in the constitution of the United States Karate Association. 

"*Let me stress to the membership that they keep an open mind and choose from the various styles of karate the things that work for them. Fight rough and tough so as to show the matchless American fighting ability. The daydreamers and romantics are those who feel they must copy some other country's fighting spirit."*


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My understanding of the koryu approach (from what Chris Parker has said) is that they maintain the tradition and principles, but don't attempt to maintain it entirely without change.


 As we all know the written teachings if any are taken from Confucian analects and Buddhist teachings. I see new headmasters increase their study in Buddhism in an effort to reach a deeper understanding of what we do. This often translates into actual movement.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Will you say that the following is bad idea?
> 
> - A boxer adds wrestling skill into his training.
> - A wrestler adds boxing skill into his training.


I say it's a neutral idea.  

If the boxer wants to do that, great.  If he does not want to, great.

Same for the wrestler.

It depends on his purposes in his training, and what he feels is valuable to his goals and motivations.  But to say that he MUST??  Utter nonsense.


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To say that a boxer trains single leg can make his boxing "un-pure" just make no sense to me.
> 
> - We boxers don't do single leg.
> - Single leg is against the boxing principle.
> ...


try throwing a single leg in a boxing match and tell me how that works for you.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Do you really consider the arts to be like an electrical appliance?


40 years ago you would never expect that someday you will have to fight someone like this.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> try throwing a single leg in a boxing match and tell me how that works for you.


You train sport so you can fight on the street. Fighting is your goal. Sport is only your path. IMO, your sport should not put any restriction on you.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 40 years ago you would never expect that someday you will have to fight someone like this.
> 
> http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif



and 150 years ago you had to fight someone like this






Still has nothing to do with electronics but fighting like this






150 years ago would get you killed....so... is that actually an advancement...and even today, try that in the street, since you brought the street into this in post 137.... would get you hurt


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 40 years ago you would never expect that someday you will have to fight someone like this.
> 
> http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif


You quoted Hyoho, but somehow my name got attached to the quote.

Anyway, fighting this fool doesn't take special techniques or methods.  A pair of thick-soled roach stompers would be enough.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> I don't know about koryu, but I can respect that there are many reasons to learn an art.  I have said in the past that I define traditional styles as those where the effectiveness of a technique is less important than how the technique is performed.   nothing wrong with that at all.  Doesn't mean a technique is ineffective.  Rather, it means that efficacy isn't th number one concern.
> 
> I can easily imagine that a traditional art may value a faithful transmission of the entire system over all other concerns.  There's no wrong or right in that.   And in a style like this, lineage may matter a great deal, as it speaks to authenticity.
> 
> This is just one legit reason lineage matters.


That's a good point. My focus is on the effectiveness of something in whatever context it is meant to be effective. Others may have a different view, so there may be a context in which freezing in time at some arbitrary point is a perfect approach to achieve the desired end.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> wife + girl friend > wife


Not if your wife has 10 years of training. Just sayin'.

EDIT: And a dad who was in the KGB. Seriously.


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You train sport so you can fight on the street. Fighting is your goal. Sport is only your path. IMO, your sport should not put any restriction on you.


No, YOU train sport so you can fight in the street.  Fighting is YOUR goal.


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> You quoted Hyoho, but somehow my name got attached to the quote.
> 
> Anyway, fighting this fool doesn't take special techniques or methods.  A pair of thick-soled roach stompers would be enough.


Just a guess, but I'd recommend not confusing skill with strategy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I can see that as a fair working definition in some cases.  In my experience with the Chinese methods, it seems there is less focus on EXACT transmission than what you perhaps see in the Japanese koryu.  Accurate transmission is important because the system is seen to work and be highly functional, so one does not want to mess it up.  However, exact transmission isn't really important; changes can and do happen.  I've seen my sifu make a change on the spot, with a comment like, "do it this way now, it's better."  I feel confident that the original method that may or may not have originated in the 1400s (according to oral tradition) looked rather different from the system I practice today.
> 
> My definition of a traditional art, in the Chinese methods, is more along the lines of, a system that has been passed down several generations (exactly how many is kind of nebulous) and has passed the test of time and shows itself to still be a highly functional and effective method.


My definition of "traditional" is simply an art that strives to maintain some parts of the traditions from its origin. So, NGA keeps the Japanese bow (somewhat bastardized) and a few other bits of tradition that really aren't necessary to the efficacy of the art. Thus, I consider it "traditional", though others would call it "modern" since it was founded in the 1940's.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> Depends upon the criteria for evaluation.


I'm agreeing with you too much lately, Steve. Say something I disagree with, already!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Who copies? Your teacher hands on to you the fundamentals. In turn we add our own character to that. Where many people go wrong is they try to add character before they fully understand those fundamentals. Just how much should we study those fundamentals? Most of the arts are about repetition and as Musashi said "Ten thousand times is still not enough". It's far too easy to add our own quirks to what we do. We should spend a lifetime trying to remove them, not 'add them'.
> 
> If you are experienced enough and watch someone perform and appreciate those fundamentals with their added character. If you can't see that? You still need to learn a lot more.


Actually, I've trained with people who tried their damnedest to be exact copies of their instructor. I consider it a colossal mistake.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well it has to be my opinion as I do lead and head one classical art and am licenced to teach another. My headmasters taught me something they wanted to hand down. First and foremost is my obligation to them. As they passed on that obligation is even deeper. The answer is in my sig. We have philosophical teachings as well as the art itself.


Here's where my mind takes me on that, Hyoho: are you teaching exactly what was originated, or following the principles and delivering the best version of that art you can (which is doubtless what the founder was doing)?

In my opinion (and it's only worth what any opinion is worth), trying to deliver exactly what someone else created is missing the point of their creation. They were doing the best they had with the information they had available, and I believe they would expect their successors to do the same. You have information Musashi didn't. What would he have done with that information?


----------



## kuniggety (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Not if your wife has 10 years of training. Just sayin'.
> 
> EDIT: And a dad who was in the KGB. Seriously.



But what if the gf is you and your wife's  _training_ partner?


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My definition of "traditional" is simply an art that strives to maintain some parts of the traditions from its origin. So, NGA keeps the Japanese bow (somewhat bastardized) and a few other bits of tradition that really aren't necessary to the efficacy of the art. Thus, I consider it "traditional", though others would call it "modern" since it was founded in the 1940's.


is BJJ traditional?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> "Smart answer" But my teacher would never talk on the phone. He would always want to sit down and discuss things face to face. He had no trust in phones. Problem is nowadays there are too many people that think like smartphones with an easy answer and a 'shortcut'. Do you really consider the arts to be like an electrical appliance?


There is a similarity. We know things now that weren't known 100 years ago. Should we not update our systems with this new knowledge?


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 40 years ago you would never expect that someday you will have to fight someone like this.
> 
> http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131007/1000/daily_gifdump_470_15.gif


 Well I guess we will never agree to a point. I teach/practice and have won and my students have won national competitions in more modern arts invented in the late1800s) 

I also try to hand on a classical, artistic cultural activity as it was taught to me. Maybe not in its entirety but at least it contains the ethics that go along with it keep it correct. To quote Nippon Budokan: Martial arts, Japan in particular has survived since WWll because of the sport-like educational merits they possess.

Will I ever use it? No, it's a particular art form I am interested in that I studied in my country of residence. Never have I ever needed to look at martial arts as a form of defence. A dark night and a piece of 2x2 serves that purpose. Is that martial arts? I guess it is because the real stuff has no rules.  

 Where I live now I have a decent taser, a few pistols, a rifle and two GSDs and lots of 2x2 from trees I just chainsawed. But mostly that's to keep cobra off the land.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To say that a boxer trains single leg can make his boxing "un-pure" just make no sense to me.
> 
> - We boxers don't do single leg.
> - Single leg is against the boxing principle.
> ...


I think Steve's point is that the single-leg won't improve the boxer's boxing, if he's fighting by boxing rules. And he's right in that. Adding the single-leg is a distraction in that context. In a combat-effectiveness context, it's a gain.


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> But what if the gf is you and your wife's  _training_ partner?


Bow chicka wow wow.   Oh yeah.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> As we all know the written teachings if any are taken from Confucian analects and Buddhist teachings. I see new headmasters increase their study in Buddhism in an effort to reach a deeper understanding of what we do. This often translates into actual movement.


I may be too tired right now, but I didn't understand this post, Hyoho.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You train sport so you can fight on the street. Fighting is your goal. Sport is only your path. IMO, your sport should not put any restriction on you.


Not for everyone.


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think Steve's point is that the single-leg won't improve the boxer's boxing, if he's fighting by boxing rules. And he's right in that. Adding the single-leg is a distraction in that context. In a combat-effectiveness context, it's a gain.


That's right.  Better is a subjective term that will depend up entirely on goals and desired outcomes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> You quoted Hyoho, but somehow my name got attached to the quote.
> 
> Anyway, fighting this fool doesn't take special techniques or methods.  A pair of thick-soled roach stompers would be enough.


Or even just...well...looking at him funny.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> is BJJ traditional?


I don't know - I'm not familiar with the training environment in BJJ. Do you guys maintain some cultural traditions that are unrelated to the techniques (other than language - that's a natural)?


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know - I'm not familiar with the training environment in BJJ. Do you guys maintain some cultural traditions that are unrelated to the techniques (other than language - that's a natural)?


Sure.  We wear a Gi.   Many schools bow at the beginning or end of class.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Here's where my mind takes me on that, Hyoho: are you teaching exactly what was originated, or following the principles and delivering the best version of that art you can (which is doubtless what the founder was doing)?
> 
> In my opinion (and it's only worth what any opinion is worth), trying to deliver exactly what someone else created is missing the point of their creation. They were doing the best they had with the information they had available, and I believe they would expect their successors to do the same. You have information Musashi didn't. What would he have done with that information?



We are fortunate enough to have written work that goes along with what we do. Even people who do not practice the arts use these teachings to try and further their own path in life. With Musashi it's the transformation of the 'killing sword' to the 'life giving sword' that fascinates many. To use only 'sen'. Sen being the epitome of waza. It's the concept of a survivor we value.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> Sure.  We wear a Gi.   Many schools bow at the beginning or end of class.


If that's the extent of it, I'd consider it only marginally traditional. I think the gi has a practical use - it's something durable that can be used as part of the equipment (scarf holds, etc.), so the bow is the only part that's traditional, in my view. As you can see, it's a continuum for me, not a binary result.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> Sure.  We wear a Gi.   Many schools bow at the beginning or end of class.



The etiquette (Bowing) has nothing to do with the arts. It's a modern form of Ogasawara reiho as taught to the emperor and then to the common people. Why do we bow in MA? It is what separates us from it being a gentlemanly pursuit rather than barbarism. Not my words. Common fact in a country that bows a lot.

A thick gi was originally taken from Japanese fireman's uniform as a robust/strong practice clothing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> The etiquette (Bowing) has nothing to do with the arts. It's a modern form of Ogasawara reiho as taught to the emperor and then to the common people. Why do we bow in MA? It is what separates us from it being a gentlemanly pursuit rather than barbarism. Not my words. Common fact in a country that bows a lot.
> 
> A thick gi was originally taken from Japanese fireman's uniform as a robust/strong practice clothing.


The bow is, however, a cultural hold-over in arts that practice outside Japan. BJJ (as a separate system) has origins in South America, so the bow is a holdover from its Japanese roots. The same holds true for NGA, since we no longer have an active dojo in Japan. In both cases, we maintain a Japanese-style bow as a matter of tradition.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The bow is, however, a cultural hold-over in arts that practice outside Japan. BJJ (as a separate system) has origins in South America, so the bow is a holdover from its Japanese roots. The same holds true for NGA, since we no longer have an active dojo in Japan. In both cases, we maintain a Japanese-style bow as a matter of tradition.



 Part of my job was teaching Japanese to bow and sit Teaching normal high school students M.A. as a once weekly subject it does not get much further than that.  

Lol I still bow on the telephone to Japanese.


----------



## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> The etiquette (Bowing) has nothing to do with the arts. It's a modern form of Ogasawara reiho as taught to the emperor and then to the common people. Why do we bow in MA? It is what separates us from it being a gentlemanly pursuit rather than barbarism. Not my words. Common fact in a country that bows a lot.
> 
> A thick gi was originally taken from Japanese fireman's uniform as a robust/strong practice clothing.


I understand the origins of both bowing and the Gi.  I've heard explanations very much like yours above many times.   And still... Why do people in an American BJJ school bow?   Tradition.  Because it's part of the gig.   I don't have a lot of occasion to bow otherwise.   

My point isn't to say BJJ is a traditional art.   I don't think it is.   My point is that legacy traditions don't make a style traditional.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 9, 2017)

Maybe just a token gesture?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

Steve said:


> I understand the origins of both bowing and the Gi.  I've heard explanations very much like yours above many times.   And still... Why do people in an American BJJ school bow?   Tradition.  Because it's part of the gig.   I don't have a lot of occasion to bow otherwise.
> 
> My point isn't to say BJJ is a traditional art.   I don't think it is.   My point is that legacy traditions don't make a style traditional.


Agreed. That's why I said it's marginally traditional. A school that does the same art but has abandoned the bow and practices no-gi would be less traditional by that same margin. NGA is more traditional (most schools maintain a shrine, use a formal bow, bow when entering, and use last names: "Mr. Seymour", and uses some more traditional training methods), and just does meet my notion of "traditional".


----------



## crazydiamond (Mar 10, 2017)

IP Man - Bruce Lee - Dan Inosanto - My Guru (withheld for privacy).

On a side tangent Dan Inosanto - Ron Balicki - My Sifu (withheld for Privacy)


----------



## clfsean (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Lol I still bow on the telephone to Japanese.



My wife & I do when passing each other in the hallway in our house!! Just the short 1/4 bow like on the phone. And **** you're right, I do bow on the phone with her. ****.


----------



## Buka (Mar 10, 2017)

Martial Arts. Damn!


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I study Isshinryu Karate, an Okinawan style.  I am a third-generation student of the founder.  Everyone who knows my sensei knows my lineage; no one else needs to know.



I was just at an Isshinryu tournament about a month ago in nj

golden rule tri state karate tournament


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Steve said:


> I don't know about koryu, but I can respect that there are many reasons to learn an art.  I have said in the past that I define traditional styles as those where the effectiveness of a technique is less important than how the technique is performed.   nothing wrong with that at all.  Doesn't mean a technique is ineffective.  Rather, it means that efficacy isn't th number one concern.
> 
> I can easily imagine that a traditional art may value a faithful transmission of the entire system over all other concerns.  There's no wrong or right in that.   And in a style like this, lineage may matter a great deal, as it speaks to authenticity.
> 
> This is just one legit reason lineage matters.



I agree...  You dont want to end up learning from a guy who "bought" his black belt... there are alot of them out there too


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Why?
> 
> You should know if it works, you should know if it's good.





Andrew Green said:


> Why do you care?  And yes, MMA.





BigJavi973 said:


> So who did you get your black belt from and in what style?



So you gonna tell us who you got your black belt from, what style or not?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> So you gonna tell us who you got your black belt from, what style or not?


Why so belligerent?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> So you gonna tell us who you got your black belt from, what style or not?



not all styles of martial arts give belt ranks, For example; Traditional Chinese Martial Arts


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> So you gonna tell us who you got your black belt from, what style or not?



Going to tell me why you care so much?


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Why so belligerent?



not..... just asking since he was one of those that dont like lineages etc.... "just find what works" etc I was just wondering where he got his kuro obi from and what style


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Going to tell me why you care so much?



I am interested in knowing. Nothing wrong with posting who you got your credentials from.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> not all styles of martial arts give belt ranks, For example; Traditional Chinese Martial Arts



its not anything chinese I can tell you that much


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I am interested in knowing. Nothing wrong with posting who you got your credentials from.



Sure there is, everything I say online is a representation of me and my opinions at the time.  I've got a lot of influences, and if I it is relevant to the discussion I will state who influenced a particular aspect.  

If someone comes to my school and cares I'm happy to discuss it with them, but I'll be honest, someone that cares about lineage as much as you do is not likely to come into a MMA gym.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> its not anything chinese I can tell you that much


The same is true of many in MMA - no "black belt" in most MMA gyms, unless they are teaching each style separately (and some of the styles have the BB).


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Sure there is, everything I say online is a representation of me and my opinions at the time.  I've got a lot of influences, and if I it is relevant to the discussion I will state who influenced a particular aspect.
> 
> If someone comes to my school and cares I'm happy to discuss it with them, but I'll be honest, *someone that cares about lineage as much as you do is not likely to come into a MMA gym.*



assuming much are you now? I'm a firm believer in ecclectic training. I have trained in kickboxing, boxing (im a huge, avid, boxing fan btw). You said yourself you haven't taught a karate program in 15 years... so whats the problem? Everyone else here seems to have no issue letting other users know who they learned from etc.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> assuming much are you now? I'm a firm believer in ecclectic training. I have trained in kickboxing, boxing (im a huge, avid, boxing fan btw). You said yourself you haven't taught a karate program in 15 years... so whats the problem? Everyone else here seems to have no issue letting other users know who they learned from etc.



Man let it go.

You are beating a dead horse.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Man let it go.
> 
> You are beating a dead horse.



I know right... I find it quite funny tho... gives out ranks for his students but then cant tell who gave him his rank.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> assuming much are you now? I'm a firm believer in ecclectic training. I have trained in kickboxing, boxing (im a huge, avid, boxing fan btw). You said yourself you haven't taught a karate program in 15 years... so whats the problem? Everyone else here seems to have no issue letting other users know who they learned from etc.


Actually, not everyone. You might go back and see that some others have left out parts of their lineage for privacy reasons. It is perfectly acceptable for someone to not be interested in posting that.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, not everyone. You might go back and see that some others have left out parts of their lineage* for privacy reasons. *It is perfectly acceptable for someone to not be interested in posting that.



exactly for privacy reasons


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> exactly for privacy reasons


It actually doesn't matter what a person's reasons are. They have no obligation to post their lineage here. Why are you so determined to have a specific person post theirs?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, not everyone. You might go back and see that some others have left out parts of their lineage for privacy reasons. It is perfectly acceptable for someone to not be interested in posting that.



I will not list any names of teachers that do not advertise. I will tell you I trained a bit with Yang Jwing Ming, Chen Zhanglei,  Jesse Tsao and ever a few others. But I will not give out the name of my Yang Shifu, or the gentleman I trained Sanda with.... Neither advertise


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 10, 2017)

.


BigJavi973 said:


> I pretty much have taken the idea from that lineage website etc Feel free to post your lineage and see where it traces to. IMO it is very important to know where your specific Martial Art comes from. You don't want to learn from someone who learned from some guy in the back of a laundromat.  How you post it is up to you. You can post a picture, video desribing your lineage, or you can just type it out.
> 
> When giving the information, you do NOT have to provide their titles, example just as master, grandmaster, hanshi etc... Their names should be sufficient imo if you are taught by someone legit. A "title" does not make you legit. For example, I know a guy, that was an orange belt at the karate school I attend. At our school we dont promote fast so I guess he got frustrated and left went somewhere else.... that was like 4 years ago... all of a sudden he's being called "Master ......" I wont put his name out there not my concern but that was basically the example of how titles can be very misleading.
> 
> ...



So are you now the lineal descendant of Funakoshi Gichin to be able to create a tree? That's what it means. Lineage (next in line)? A successor. I thought there were around fifteen Shotokan organisations at present. 

As we say in Japan. "A tree has many branches. On those branches are leaves. But the leaves fade, fall off and die.

By the way Osu means male species.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> .
> 
> 
> So are you now the lineal descendant of Funakoshi Gichin to be able to create a tree? That's what it means. Lineage (next in line)? A successor. I thought there were around fifteen Shotokan organisations at present.
> ...



It also means to push or to infer. Anything captain obvious?

Also show me where funakoshi sensei appointed a successor


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> It also means to push or to infer. Anything captain obvious?
> 
> Also show me where funakoshi sensei appointed a successor



This was asked before, but...Why so belligerent?


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> This was asked before, but...Why so belligerent?



i didnt know stating the obvious is being belligerent


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> It also means to push or to infer. Anything captain obvious?
> 
> Also show me where funakoshi sensei appointed a successor


 Well if he didn't you obviously don't have a lineage! You don't just tag yourself on to famous peoples names just because you practice something.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well if he didn't you obviously don't have a lineage! You don't just tag yourself on to famous peoples names just because you practice something.


Wait, that's what most folks here mean by "lineage" - trace your line of instructors back as far as you can. He traces his back to Funakoshi. That's not claiming to have inherited the art, nor is it tagging himself on to famous people's names.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well if he didn't you obviously don't have a lineage! You don't just tag yourself on to famous peoples names just because you practice something.



I learned my katas & kihon from my teacher... my teacher learned it from her teacher and his teacher learned.............................well im guessing you understand that concept


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Wait, that's what most folks here mean by "lineage" - trace your line of instructors back as far as you can. He traces his back to Funakoshi. That's not claiming to have inherited the art, nor is it tagging himself on to famous people's names.



it can even go further than that with funakoshi sensei's teachers and their teachers so on and so forth.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Seems some people are getting the word 'lineage' mixed up with "The guy I learned from".
> 
> Black belts have nothing whatsoever to do with lineage. It's either hereditary or 'complete transmission'





Hyoho said:


> .
> 
> 
> So are you now the lineal descendant of Funakoshi Gichin to be able to create a tree? That's what it means. Lineage (next in line)? A successor. I thought there were around fifteen Shotokan organisations at present.
> ...





Hyoho said:


> Well if he didn't you obviously don't have a lineage! You don't just tag yourself on to famous peoples names just because you practice something.



It looks like you're trying to overgeneralize a particular concept from the Japanese koryu arts onto the martial arts world in general. Most martial arts throughout the world are not proprietary packages headed up by a single leader who was "chosen as a successor" or "received complete transmission" and certainly not by one who got the title through heredity despite the fact that he might not even train in the art.

Most martial artists use the word "lineage" to identify their instructor in an art, that instructor's instructor, and so on. If they have multiple instructors, then usually the line is simplified by indicating the one they trained with the most or the one who awarded them their rank (if they train in an art which has a rank system).

If you want to insist that the English word "lineage" should only apply to heads of a ryu in a Japanese koryu sense and that no one else has a lineage ,,, you are welcome to do so, but don't expect that anyone else will necessarily go along with your idiosyncratic definition. That's not what the word means in English, either in a martial arts context or elsewhere.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Most martial artists use the word "lineage" to identify their instructor in an art, that instructor's instructor, and so on. If they have multiple instructors, then usually the line is simplified by indicating the one they trained with the most or the one who awarded them their rank (if they train in an art which has a rank system).



Very well said!


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Buying your black belt/sash is completely different than earning one


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> Very well said!


Really? Still?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> Buying your black belt/sash is completely different than earning one


Is that an accusation?


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Is that an accusation?



no of course not. It was a generalized statement!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2017)

Steve said:


> No, YOU train sport so you can fight in the street.  Fighting is YOUR goal.


If you train "sport" and "sport" is your only goal, you may think there is nothing wrong to fight like this. Through "sport", you may develop some bad habit.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you train "sport" and "sport" is your only goal, you may think there is nothing wrong to fight like this. Through "sport", you may develop some bad habit.


It's a bad habit for fighting, not for competing in that particular sport. If someone's only goal is competing in wrestling, then it doesn't matter that the stance shown is sub-optimal for fighting any more than it matters that it is sub-optimal for playing basketball.

Hopefully if a wrestler also wants to be able to fight, they will figure out which details need to change from the sport application.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I'm a firm believer in ecclectic training. I have trained in kickboxing, boxing (im a huge, avid, boxing fan btw).



You stated in your initial post:



> IMO it is very important to know where your specific Martial Art comes from.



Eclectic training means that you will end up with something that is not a specific art at all and negates the whole concept of lineage.

If you end up teaching this eclectic mix of yours at some point in the future putting a "lineage" to it is going to be misleading at best.  Not all paradigms share the importance you place on lineage though. I'd say for most of the people in this industry that I respect the most I couldn't tell you much at all about their lineage and have no idea who they trained with.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you train "sport" and "sport" is your only goal, you may think there is nothing wrong to fight like this. Through "sport", you may develop some bad habit.



That is one sport, one that doesn't involve striking.  I suspect if they where facing off with someone trying to hit them they would stand a little different.  I also suspect that if one of those guys wanted to take someone down there wouldn't be much at all most people could do to stop them.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> You stated in your initial post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and you dont agree that you need strong roots? I thought that was a given in martial arts


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> and you dont agree that you need strong roots? I thought that was a given in martial arts



I just disagree with you as too what constitutes strong roots.

Lineage says nothing about quality of technique, quality of instruction or really anything beyond trivial things in most cases.  If you are being groomed to head a historical system or take over a organization it might mean something.  

Now you've also trained in boxing and kickboxing apparently, in those styles lineage doesn't really mean a lot.  Did you sit down with your boxing coach and have him draw out a lineage chart for you tracing himself back to John Graham Chambers?  Why not?


----------



## Paul_D (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> You don't want to learn from someone who learned from some guy in the back of a laundromat.


Why not, if what he teaches works.  

I don't care who he is, who taught him, what name he gives or where we train.  The only thing that concerns me is what he teaches me.

Some of the most useless and nonsensical bull I have been taught has been by legitimate high ranking instructors in legitimate and established arts.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> So are you now the lineal descendant of Funakoshi Gichin to be able to create a tree? That's what it means. Lineage (next in line)? A successor. I thought there were around fifteen Shotokan organisations at present.



I think it's pretty clear that the way it's being used here is simply a list or diagram of who trained who.
For example, my Moo Duk Kwan lineage is

HWANG,  Kee  -> LEE, Kang Ik
                   KIM Wang H "Bobby" (initially trained under GM HWANG, then GM LEE) -> VALDEZ CR -> L'il ole me.



Hyoho said:


> By the way Osu means male species.



Male is a gender. There is no such thing as a male species. Any species that was entirely male would die out in that very generation.



BigJavi973 said:


> and you dont agree that you need strong roots? I thought that was a given in martial arts



"Strong roots" is a pretty much meaningless term in this context. Lineage has every bit as much importance as you personally choose to award it. No more. No less.
Knowing the details of your lineage certainly isn't necessary to be an effective martial artist.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Some of the most useless and nonsensical bull I have been taught has been by legitimate high ranking instructors in legitimate and established arts.



Yup, there is a lot of that unfortunately.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> Oh, sure, take the easy way.
> What about the other arts you've studied? Hmmm?


Okay, I guess I can make an effort at a more complete list of people I've learned from ...

*Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu*: I trained mostly under Shawn Havens, Larry Turner, and Kevin Schneider. I got my black belt from Larry and Kevin. All three were originally students of Steve Hayes. Larry and Kevin went on to become direct students of Masaaki Hatsumi, while Shawn ended up joining the Jinenkan and becoming a student under Manaka. I was probably active in the Bujinkan for about 8 years or so and still occasionally play with some of the concepts.

*Kickboxing/Muay Thai*: I trained for quite a few years under Oscar Kallet who was a black belt under Ray Casal and who holds instructor's licenses in Muay Thai under Chai Sirisute and Sakasem Kanthawong. I received my apprentice instructor's license in the TBA (Chai's organization) and a black belt in American kickboxing from Oscar. I've gotten off-and-on additional training since from Ernie Lake and Mike O'Donnell, as well as attending various classes and seminars from several notable Thai instructors. I've probably had something like 10 years worth of active training and a number of years since putting in occasional maintenance work to keep my skills from degrading and trying to polish a few aspects. Lately I've been working some with my friend Anton Spectorov, who is doing original research into figuring out the most effective ways of training striking in general.

*BJJ*: I started out with Mike Patt (who gave me my blue belt) and his instructor at the time, Jorge Gurgel. When I moved to Kentucky, I started training under Mike O'Donnell who eventually promoted me all the way up to black belt. As noted before, my lineage as far as promotions goes (Mitsuo Maeda) --> Carlos Gracie --> Carlson Gracie --> Carlson Gracie Jr. --> Mike O'Donnell --> me. Realistically though, I have learned from  my seniors, my peers, my students, videos, seminars, folks I've met from other schools I've visited or who have visited us, and my own experiments as much or more as I have from Mike. If you look at the lineages of all the people I've learned from, they stretch through all corners of the BJJ community. I'm not sure exactly how long I've trained BJJ. It's probably been about 20 years, but maybe only 17-18 years since it became my primary art. I've also picked up a bit of *Judo*, *Wrestling*, and *Sambo* along the way, but I'm not very good at any of them in isolation so I just treat them as different aspects of my BJJ.

*Boxing*: Boxing has always been a supplemental art for me. I got my foundation as part of my kickboxing instruction from Oscar Kallet.  Since then I've taken classes for a few months at a time from different instructors - can't remember all their names. Darrin Van Horn (2 x world champion) occasionally gives me some coaching as a thank you for the help I've given him with BJJ, but I don't work with him regularly enough to consider myself a genuine student of his. Despite not taking regular classes, I do make a point to do some regular practice to maintain my skills.

*Yudansha Fighting Systems*: This is an off-shoot of Danzan Ryu. I trained for a few years under Brian Johnson who was a student of the founder of the system, Mike Varos. I reached brown belt before Brian moved out of town and the school closed.

*Kali:* This is another system that I've just picked up in bits and pieces from different individuals over the years, most notably from Ernie Lake, who is a certified instructor in Inosanto-Lacoste blend, Sayoc Kali, and FCS (Filipino Combat systems - Ray Dianaldo's system). I've probably only had a year or two's worth of actual instruction, but I've spent enough time practicing what I've learned to have some functional fundamentals.

*Wing Tsun*: I've been training under @yak sao for a bit over a year. He can fill in the details of his lineage if he desires.

*Capoeira:* I've been training for about 9 months now under Ray "Charuto" Jordan. Capoeira lineages are kind of weird because everybody goes by their Capoeira nicknames, but we're under the Cordao de Ouro umbrella, going back to Mestre Suassuna.

*SCA heavy weapons fighting: *This is completely non-historical, but there are things to be learned from time spent competing in what is essentially a hard-contact stick-fighting sport. I spent probably a decade or so involved in the SCA and participated in heavy weapons fighting (both tournaments and field battles) during most of that time. Can't say I ever got really great at it, but I eventually got to be slightly above average. Names of the people I learned from wouldn't mean anything unless you are a SCAdian, because folks go by the names of the personas, but I was a member of the Barony of the Flaming Gryphon through the late 80s to the mid 90s.

*Others*: I've had bits and pieces of exposure to other systems - Bando, TKD, Silat, Karate, JKD, etc over the years. Time spent ranged from a few months to the occasional seminar. I don't count myself as a practitioner of any of those arts, but I've learned some things from the exposure.


----------



## Steve (Mar 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you train "sport" and "sport" is your only goal, you may think there is nothing wrong to fight like this. Through "sport", you may develop some bad habit.


This isn't necessarily true, though.  Technique, strategy and tactics are all different things.  I've seen professional MMA fighters successfully compete in BJJ competitions.  They know a lot of striking technique, but don't all of a sudden forget where they are and start pounding guys in guard.  Even more subtly, I've seen strikers adapt seamlessly into multiple rulesets.  Muay Thai boxers succeeding in western boxing matches, or vice versa, for example.

Point is, I see a guy moving on his back in an upside down guard, I'm not too worried that he will forget where he is in a real life altercation and roll to his shoulders like that. 

And, bad habit is subjective, too.  If that guy on his shoulders is successful in his own context, he's doing just fine.  If it leads him to success (by his own measure) than it may be a good habit for him, even if it a bad habit for you.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I guess I can make an effort at a more complete list of people I've learned from ...
> 
> *Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu*: I trained mostly under Shawn Havens, Larry Turner, and Kevin Schneider. I got my black belt from Larry and Kevin. All three were originally students of Steve Hayes. Larry and Kevin went on to become direct students of Masaaki Hatsumi, while Shawn ended up joining the Jinenkan and becoming a student under Manaka. I was probably active in the Bujinkan for about 8 years or so and still occasionally play with some of the concepts.
> 
> ...



love this!


----------



## Steve (Mar 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I guess I can make an effort at a more complete list of people I've learned from ...
> 
> *Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu*: I trained mostly under Shawn Havens, Larry Turner, and Kevin Schneider. I got my black belt from Larry and Kevin. All three were originally students of Steve Hayes. Larry and Kevin went on to become direct students of Masaaki Hatsumi, while Shawn ended up joining the Jinenkan and becoming a student under Manaka. I was probably active in the Bujinkan for about 8 years or so and still occasionally play with some of the concepts.
> 
> ...


Dayum.  I think you should start your own style!  Problem is, your pedigree is so deep, you'd raise red flags on websites like this one. 

The only person here who may be more of a mutt is Buka!


----------



## kuniggety (Mar 10, 2017)

I posted about BJJ earlier since it's my main art but I've studied a few others over the years.

Shuri-ryu: trained under Robert Bowles (8th Dan at the time and later took over as head of the organization). I trained for 2 1/2 yrs and made it to purple belt which was 4th kyu in the system.

Aikikai aikido: trained off an on for about 6 months. I honestly don't even remember my instructor... it was in Okinawa.

Bak sil Lum and 7 Star Northern Praying Mantis: Lance Brazil under Steven Baugh who had two lineages: Kam Yuen (NPM and BSL)/Chiu Chuck Kai and Ken Hui (BSL)/Johnny So. I took private lessons... studying 4 or 5 hrs a week for about a year. I practiced a lot outside and learned more than some dudes who had been studying for several years.

Chen family Taiji (Liu Yong lineage): I studied private lessons for 6 months and learned the intermediate Laojia 39-form.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 10, 2017)

Steve said:


> Dayum.  I think you should start your own style!  Problem is, your pedigree is so deep, you'd raise red flags on websites like this one.
> 
> The only person here who may be more of a mutt is Buka!


As far as what I do myself in a fighting/free-sparring context, it pretty much _is_ my own style. (When I'm attending someone else's classes, of course, I'm doing my best to emulate exactly what they are teaching and understand its function in the context of that art.)

That's very different from creating my own system to teach to others. In order to do that I would have to figure out a lot of things so my students could get to the level I'm at or higher without taking as long as I did.

How should the curriculum be ordered? How much time should be devoted to each facet of training at different levels of student development? (i.e. drilling reps vs sparring vs scenario training vs flow drills/ striking vs grappling vs weapons/ throws vs ground fighting, etc, etc, etc) How best to transmit understanding of subtle details of body mechanics? How to make the principles coherent from the outset, rather than just feeding contradictory ideas to the students and hoping they figure out their own synthesis as I did. It gets rather involved, not to mention that I am still pretty mediocre at a few aspects that I would want to be central to my ideal art.

Right now I'm happy just teaching jiu-jitsu and studying various things to improve my own understanding and skills.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I know right... I find it quite funny tho... gives out ranks for his students but then cant tell who gave him his rank.


Andrew Green has been a respected member of this form for quite a few years.  You don't need to take this kind of tone with him.  Granted, anyone who does not wish to post their lineage is welcome to simply ignore the thread.  However, your tone here is pretty disrespectful.  Tone it down a bit, eh?  It really is not necessary.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

Since everyone else is posting their other training, I'll add mine. Don't worry, I don't have nearly Tony's pedigree.

Kodokan Judo: I studied for a time with Guy Jacobsohn in my teens. I have no idea who his instructor was. I actually don't remember how long I trained - a bit over a year, I think - and I never tested (come to think of it, I don't remember Guy ever testing anyone - I wonder if he just didn't do that).

Shotokan Karate: I started under Sensei Georgia (that's all I ever knew her as - I was 12), and trained with her for a few months. I picked the training up again a year later when Guy (my Judo instructor) added a Karate class. All told, probably something like 18-24 months. I have no recollection of testing (probably did with Sensei Georgia, and again don't recall Guy ever testing anyone).

(Ueshiba) Aikido: I have trained for short periods a few times when traveling. Mostly cross-training with good partners and working with students who came from that art, not so much formal training.

FMA: I took private lessons for a while (maybe a year, at most) with a guy who taught a blend (seemed about 80/20) of FMA and jujutsu (small-circle, I think). Last name was Adams.

The rest is just miscellaneous tinkerings and wanderings, mostly either visiting friends' dojos or attending seminars. The ones that had a pronounced impact that I can point to include Tang Soo Do, BJJ, wrestling, and Yanagi-ryu.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It looks like you're trying to overgeneralize a particular concept from the Japanese koryu arts onto the martial arts world in general. Most martial arts throughout the world are not proprietary packages headed up by a single leader who was "chosen as a successor" or "received complete transmission" and certainly not by one who got the title through heredity despite the fact that he might not even train in the art.
> 
> Most martial artists use the word "lineage" to identify their instructor in an art, that instructor's instructor, and so on. If they have multiple instructors, then usually the line is simplified by indicating the one they trained with the most or the one who awarded them their rank (if they train in an art which has a rank system).
> 
> If you want to insist that the English word "lineage" should only apply to heads of a ryu in a Japanese koryu sense and that no one else has a lineage ,,, you are welcome to do so, but don't expect that anyone else will necessarily go along with your idiosyncratic definition. That's not what the word means in English, either in a martial arts context or elsewhere.


Lineage usually means family and rather grandiose word to use. Connections is a better word. It's not me that's over generalizing.

Some of the previous posts hit the nail on the head. It's your sensei that matters. Not one one technique from " A" Sensei, another from "B" sensei. In Japan that what is called a champon (a Chinese mixed bowl of leftover food in a soup.  

And most of all and most important is. You may be good but can you had it on to other to do the same or better?


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## Hyoho (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I learned my katas & kihon from my teacher... my teacher learned it from her teacher and his teacher learned.............................well im guessing you understand that concept


Sure I do. Katas are made up and someone made it up in the first place and broken down into kihon (fundamental). It's not a waza is it? Don't you think you would have been better using the word connections? If we all put down individual trees it would be too big to fill this page. As I said Trees, branches, leaves.

So here is my karate lineage..... Miyagi Chojun - Chojiro Tani -  Suzuki Sensei - Me. 

Looks rather ridiculous to me but I wrote it anyway.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Lineage usually means family and rather grandiose word to use. Connections is a better word. It's not me that's over generalizing.


It means whatever it means in context. In the context of MA discussions, most people use it to refer to the string of instructors promoting and/or training instructors. Nothing grandiose about it. The usage is a derivation from the geneological use. Since words mean exactly what people think they mean, and most people use the term "lineage" to refer to this string of instructors, who are you to demand they use something different?


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## Hyoho (Mar 10, 2017)

Lol I am not demanding anything. As you say a string of instructors. How long is piece of string?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Lol I am not demanding anything. As you say a string of instructors. How long is piece of string?


What on earth does that question have to do with the topic??


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## Balrog (Mar 10, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> I pretty much have taken the idea from that lineage website etc Feel free to post your lineage and see where it traces to. IMO it is very important to know where your specific Martial Art comes from. You don't want to learn from someone who learned from some guy in the back of a laundromat.  How you post it is up to you. You can post a picture, video desribing your lineage, or you can just type it out.


Grandmaster H. U. Lee
Jack Yoder
Sam Phrumjuntun
Larry Spencer
Me


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## Steve (Mar 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Lol I am not demanding anything. As you say a string of instructors. How long is piece of string?


as long as it is, of course.   Do you have a particular string in mind?

Reminds me of the string who was in a bar.  Bartender said, "hey!  We don't serve your kind in here."   He had the string kicked out by the bouncers, and they weren't very nice about it.   Sitting on the curb, bruised and battered, the string decides he's not going to put up with this crap.  He goes back into the bar and orders a drink.   Bartender says, "you look really familiar.   Aren't you that string I just had thrown out?"  The string said, "no, I'm a frayed knot." 

Hahahaha.   Oh, I'm funny.   Whew.... I crack myself up.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 10, 2017)

Steve said:


> as long as it is, of course.   Do you have a particular string in mind?
> 
> Reminds me of the string who was in a bar.  Bartender said, "hey!  We don't serve your kind in here."   He had the string kicked out by the bouncers, and they weren't very nice about it.   Sitting on the curb, bruised and battered, the string decides he's not going to put up with this crap.  He goes back into the bar and orders a drink.   Bartender says, "you look really familiar.   Aren't you that string I just had thrown out?"  The string said, "no, I'm a frayed knot."
> 
> Hahahaha.   Oh, I'm funny.   Whew.... I crack myself up.


 Lol in this case an MA string.  "As long as a piece of string" denotes length or size is unknown, infinite, or variable. My point of view is not my own but identifies with what  Japanese think of lineage.

Talking to foreigners about lineage, black belts and legitimacy bring new and alternative meaning to Budo. 

Simply put one form of rank (Shodan) or a black belt is awarded by an association. 

The second system and older is that arts have 'no rank'.  There is a possibility of two levels for one person three for a new leader and addition to the "lineage". First. Strength of purpose certification. Second. A licence. The third being full transmission and gives the lineage thing. 

I clearly remember taking a Sohke to another country and some foreigner coming up to him to say "Oh I'm a Sohke too.   

It's really simple. Go the lineage route and give up taking belts. Or the other way round. You can't be both.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2017)

The lineage can cause a lot of problem. My long fist teacher recommended one of my long fist brothers to learn directly from my long fist teacher's teacher. After many years, one day my long fist brother called my long first teacher as "brother". That made my long fist teacher mad big time. Since then, my long fist teacher and my long fist brother became enemy all these years.

Assume A is B's teacher. If B's student C also learns from A, Should C call B as "teacher", or "brother?

If C calls B as

- teacher, C shows disrespect to A because B and A are not on the same level.
- brother, C shows disrespect to B because B was C's teacher before.

One day someone wanted to be my Shuai Chiao teacher's disciple. My SC teacher said, "Your teacher wanted to be my disciple and I turned him down, how can I accept you as my disciple?"

In one Chinese secret society (similar to Freemason) I belong the 23th generation. One day one of my friend's father told me that he belongs to the 27th generation. I'm 4 generation above him but he is my friend's father.

The idea of lineage can be a big mess sometime.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That made my long fist teacher mad big time. Since then, my long fist teacher and my long fist brother became enemy all these years.



 And yet we, as a industry, claim to teach humility. The hierarchical nature of high ranks does nothing but cause problems. We have people that have 20-30-40-50 years experience that feel they have to answer to someone simply because they have more stripes on their belts. 

We are all brother / sisters in this, whether you have been training a day or a lifetime, there is more to learn and something to learn from you. 

Any instructor that fears one of their students surpassing them instead of looks forward to it is teaching for the wrong reasons.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> The hierarchical nature of high ranks does nothing but cause problems.



When I worked for IBM, one day I asked my 2nd line manager to transfer me to a different department. My 2nd line manager asked me why, I told him that my new 1st line manager was one of my MA students. IMO, I just don't know how to work properly under one of my MA students. It's much easier for me to transfer out of that situation and avoid problem. 

After all we are all just human being.


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## Hyoho (Mar 11, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> And yet we, as a industry, claim to teach humility. The hierarchical nature of high ranks does nothing but cause problems. We have people that have 20-30-40-50 years experience that feel they have to answer to someone simply because they have more stripes on their belts.
> 
> We are all brother / sisters in this, whether you have been training a day or a lifetime, there is more to learn and something to learn from you.
> 
> Any instructor that fears one of their students surpassing them instead of looks forward to it is teaching for the wrong reasons.



It does have problems and why your average Japanese just want to belong to an association, practice, go home and occasionally take gradings. For most it a minimum sandan requirement to get a job. For the rest it's like little league. Take the kids to learn and do a bit yourself.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2017)

My Taiji lineage is very funny. I learned Taiji from my Shuai Chiao teacher. If I trace my Taiji lineage through my Shuai Chiao teacher, my Taiji lineage is one general below general Li Jing-Lin.







That will make me the same generation as Yang Chen-Fu.






That also make me one generation above Cheng Man-Ching.






But since my long fist teacher's teacher learned Taiji from Yang Chen-Fu. If I trace my Taiji lineage through my long fist teacher, I'm 3 generations below Yang Chen-Fu.

If you have more than one MA teacher, the lineage can be a big mess.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Lol in this case an MA string.  "As long as a piece of string" denotes length or size is unknown, infinite, or variable. My point of view is not my own but identifies with what  Japanese think of lineage.
> 
> Talking to foreigners about lineage, black belts and legitimacy bring new and alternative meaning to Budo.
> 
> ...


No. Just no. 

You're once again insisting lineage means what you want it to mean. That may be what the closest word in Japanese would mean, and might be the closest concept for the Japanese. It is not, however, how the word is commonly used in the US. And since there have been folks from other English-speaking countries posting to this thread without issue, I have to assume the usage is similar there.

With the traditional licensing/trasmission certificates, lineage could mean what you refer to (the procession of head-of-style). Even there, in English, it could also refer to the chain of licensed instructors from the originator of the art to a given individual. Note that this is not about how the term would be used in Japan - there may be no truly equivalent term, as is often the case in translations - but about how the word is used in the English language.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I worked for IBM, one day I asked my 2nd line manager to transfer me to a different department. My 2nd line manager asked me why, I told him that my new 1st line manager was one of my MA students. IMO, I just don't know how to work properly under one of my MA students. It's much easier for me to transfer out of that situation and avoid problem.
> 
> After all we are all just human being.


We are, and even in an informal instructor-student relationship, that can make the employee-manager relationship awkward (ever notice how awkward it is to type the word "awkward"?). I would expect that to be a more difficult situation for the student than the instructor.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> And yet we, as a industry, claim to teach humility. The hierarchical nature of high ranks does nothing but cause problems. We have people that have 20-30-40-50 years experience that feel they have to answer to someone simply because they have more stripes on their belts.
> 
> We are all brother / sisters in this, whether you have been training a day or a lifetime, there is more to learn and something to learn from you.
> 
> Any instructor that fears one of their students surpassing them instead of looks forward to it is teaching for the wrong reasons.


Agreed. The only "fear" I have in that (and one I am sure to realize eventually, especially as I age) is not having the fun of being able to overwhelm them to show where they've made a mistake. Some day I'll have a student who gets skilled enough, and I'll lose enough to age, that I won't be able to do that.

On the plus side, someday I hope to have a student or two who are better technically than me. Maybe at least one who is a better fighter than me. And if I'm really lucky, I'll produce some instructors who are better than me. Then I'll have made a real impact.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Simply put one form of rank (Shodan) or a black belt is awarded by an association.
> 
> The second system and older is that arts have 'no rank'. There is a possibility of two levels for one person three for a new leader and addition to the "lineage". First. Strength of purpose certification. Second. A licence. The third being full transmission and gives the lineage thing.


I'd also like to point out that these two are not always as different as you might think. Shojin-ryu has only 3 ranks that wear a black belt. I've used "dan" ranks, because I'm used to them, but they are actually more like the licensing approach. Shodan is a student rank, just shows technical competency at a high level. Nidan is an Instructor certification, and allows them to promote to any rank below them (including shodan). Sandan is a Senior Instructor certification, and allows them to promote to any rank, including Sandan - it is an acknowledgement that they have a full grasp of all the technical and conceptual skills needed to pass on the system to the next generation of teachers.

I see a similar approach in other styles, though they use more belts. Most seem to prefer a group of instructors or an association to award higher ranks, but there are several that allow instructors above a certain rank to do all their promotions.


----------



## BigJavi973 (Mar 11, 2017)

Steve said:


> as long as it is, of course.   Do you have a particular string in mind?
> 
> Reminds me of the string who was in a bar.  Bartender said, "hey!  We don't serve your kind in here."   He had the string kicked out by the bouncers, and they weren't very nice about it.   Sitting on the curb, bruised and battered, the string decides he's not going to put up with this crap.  He goes back into the bar and orders a drink.   Bartender says, "you look really familiar.   Aren't you that string I just had thrown out?"  The string said,* "no, I'm a frayed knot." *
> 
> Hahahaha.   Oh, I'm funny.   Whew.... I crack myself up.



bwahahahahahahahahha thats a good one!


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No. Just no.
> 
> You're once again insisting lineage means what you want it to mean. That may be what the closest word in Japanese would mean, and might be the closest concept for the Japanese. It is not, however, how the word is commonly used in the US. And since there have been folks from other English-speaking countries posting to this thread without issue, I have to assume the usage is similar there.
> 
> With the traditional licensing/trasmission certificates, lineage could mean what you refer to (the procession of head-of-style). Even there, in English, it could also refer to the chain of licensed instructors from the originator of the art to a given individual. Note that this is not about how the term would be used in Japan - there may be no truly equivalent term, as is often the case in translations - but about how the word is used in the English language.



I think he's thinking in terms of the art's lineage, whereas the rest of us are thinking in terms of individual lineage.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Any instructor that fears one of their students surpassing them instead of looks forward to it is teaching for the wrong reasons.


On the other hand, you don't want to teach some student who will beat you up when you are old and sick someday. It's not black and white. There are grey in between. You still just want to teach good guys and you don't want to teach bad guys. The MA lineage and hierarchy exist for a good reason. When you respect your previous generation, your next generation will respect you as well.

With lineage, a MA teacher may care about his students criminal record. Without lineage, a wrestling coach may not care his students criminal record that much.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> On the other hand, you don't want to teach some student who will beat you up when you are old and sick someday. It's not black and white.



I can't say that ever crossed my mind.  If I ever trained anyone to a high level that liked to beat up old and sick people I'd have failed at my job.


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## Buka (Mar 11, 2017)

One of my former students has been one of my teachers for many years now. (he's trained under more people than just me)

He's one of the best instructors I've ever met.

One of my longest training students, who is still my student, is also one of my instructors in certain aspects of Martial Arts. He's also a higher rank than I am. (not promoted by me)

A whole bunch of my students are better Martial artists than I am., But, then, they had a really good teacher.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2017)

Buka said:


> One of my former students has been one of my teachers for many years now. (he's trained under more people than just me)


What's the definition of "teacher"?

If you learn a form from someone, will that person become your teacher? What if that person also learned a form from you. Will you be his teacher too? If A is teacher for B, can B also be a teacher for A?

A: I teach you single leg. You should call me teacher.
B: I also teach you flying knee. You should call me teacher too.

IMO, sometime friends can learn from each other. there won't be any teacher-student relation issue and there won't be any lineage concern either.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you learn a form from someone, will that person become your teacher? What if that person also learned a form from you. Will you be his teacher too? If A is teacher for B, can B also be a teacher for A?



Why not?  Why would it need to be one person is a teacher at all times in all things and the other is "under" them.

Being the "teacher" is simply a roll being played in a given situation, it can be fluid.  

Let's take us, suppose we made a deal.  I teach you my style, you teach me yours.  Seems fine, no issues.  We both play the roll at different times with different things and probably both learn new things while in both rolls.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the definition of "teacher"?
> 
> If you learn a form from someone, will that person become your teacher? What if that person also learned a form from you. Will you be his teacher too? If A is teacher for B, can B also be a teacher for A?
> 
> ...


If it's a small part you learn from someone , they are a training partner, not your teacher (even though they were teaching you at the time), IMO. For me to call someone my teacher/instructor, I'd have to study under them for a while. How long? I can't think of a specific cut-off. 

As for your one-form question, that would depend upon the form. One of mine? Not even close. One that takes months to learn? Perhaps.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 11, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> See if this helps:
> 
> _"We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
> Colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
> ...


Alice's Restaurant  by Arlo Guthrie


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## Hyoho (Mar 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No. Just no.
> 
> You're once again insisting lineage means what you want it to mean. That may be what the closest word in Japanese would mean, and might be the closest concept for the Japanese. It is not, however, how the word is commonly used in the US. And since there have been folks from other English-speaking countries posting to this thread without issue, I have to assume the usage is similar there.
> 
> With the traditional licensing/trasmission certificates, lineage could mean what you refer to (the procession of head-of-style). Even there, in English, it could also refer to the chain of licensed instructors from the originator of the art to a given individual. Note that this is not about how the term would be used in Japan - there may be no truly equivalent term, as is often the case in translations - but about how the word is used in the English language.



As with other subjects that have arisen it again boils down to English. Japanese used the word 'Ha" which basically means family for lineage For example in the karate I did what is now called Tani-ha karate do, taught to me by Tani sensei. Originally Goju ryu

And yes JR 137 I was thinking of school lineage and not individual. Do I even consider that? Many Americans come to the UK looking for that like a lost puppy. I am descended from a French Knight and adopted into a Japanese Samurai family of the Nabeshima Han but who gives a damn. 

To put it bluntly (and a lot of foreigners might not like this). Japanese use the word gaijin meaning outsider. This is not really race orientated. It just means anyone outside is just well.....................outside. Leave Japan and you will be taken off the meibo (practicing members list). So you can wax poetically about who you belong to but to Japanese? Judge for yourself.

Japanese use the word in katakana "intanashionaru".  But make not mistake it does not mean the same as the English word international.


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## Steve (Mar 11, 2017)

Hyoho, do you recognize that martial arts exist outside of Japan and Japanese culture?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2017)

Steve said:


> Hyoho, do you recognize that martial arts exist outside of Japan and Japanese culture?


Not when everyone other than Japan sink.


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## Hyoho (Mar 11, 2017)

Steve said:


> Hyoho, do you recognize that martial arts exist outside of Japan and Japanese culture?



My teacher considered that future of M.A. lay outside Japan. But to do it we need to know what their culture is and how they tick

Let's just say that their concept as whole taking in consideration their attitude to foreign countries is different. You can sit next to two Japanese talking as if they are within a glass bubble visiting other countries with comments like "I am going out tonight to meet the foreigners". Needless to say Japanese that have lived outside think differently.

Personally, I do think the future lies outside Japan. Few people in Japan are even interested. My sensei taught me with what they described as a 'madoguchi' (A window to the world) with that very purpose. I owe it to them to hand on what they taught as long as I can do it. 

Sorry if I have opened a can of worms.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> My teacher considered that future of M.A. lay outside Japan.





Hyoho said:


> Personally, I do think the future lies outside Japan.



Given that

martial arts are a universal feature of human culture and
Japan makes up less than 2% of the world's population
perhaps a more precise statement would be that 98+% of the *past, present, and future* of martial arts lies outside Japan. What do you think?



Hyoho said:


> But to do it we need to know what their culture is and how they tick


I'm not sure I know how to parse this sentence. Who is "we" and who are "they"? Are you saying that non-Japanese need to know what Japanese culture is? Or the other way around? In either case, how is this necessary for the future of martial arts which have no historical connection to Japan? Is it even necessary for arts which do have an historical connection to Japan but which are no longer Japanese?



Hyoho said:


> Few people in Japan are even interested.



Even outside Japan, most people don't train martial arts, or if they do it's only for a short time as a passing hobby. Let's face it, we're all a bunch of oddballs no matter what country we're in.



Hyoho said:


> I owe it to them to hand on what they taught as long as I can do it.



I can understand that. I've had a lot of people over the years who have been very generous in passing on their knowledge and experience to me. I intend to do the same for others for the rest of my life.



Hyoho said:


> Sorry if I have opened a can of worms.



No can of worms, just some communication issues. In this thread and others you've sometimes made comments based on your experience with Japanese culture and martial arts as if they were universally applicable to arts which have nothing to do with Japan. That's why Steve asked the question you responded to.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 12, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Given that
> 
> martial arts are a universal feature of human culture and
> Japan makes up less than 2% of the world's population
> ...



To the best of my knowledge only 2% of Japanese practice. The majority of these are in education. Nippon Budokan defines Budo as a sport-like educational activity. and that is how it was re-established after WWll. Karate and such arts are an extreme minority.


Well as you said it's both if we want a better understanding. I guess I always say we. Japan is 'We" it's never I. "We in Japan". That is how we think. Again a language and cultural issue. I always consider 'we'. If people took as much time and trouble to study  Japanese as they did the arts? The arts are intrinsically tied to the Japanese language in everything we do with both Confucian and Buddhist deeper meaning. Very easy to write one page describing one word in Japanese.

Lol. Even Japanese have said to me in the past, Why do you want to do a thing like that"?

It would be nice if it was universal but I see so may things written here that bear no resemblance to Japan although people seem to thing they do. It takes probably a minimum of ten years living in Japan to know where they are coming from. I know I am in minority.  Many seem to think Japanese arts about self defence and attack and how to protect yourself but in actual fact that what it has grown into in West.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 12, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> To the best of my knowledge only 2% of Japanese practice. The majority of these are in education. Nippon Budokan defines Budo as a sport-like educational activity. and that is how it was re-established after WWll. Karate and such arts are an extreme minority.
> 
> 
> Well as you said it's both if we want a better understanding. I guess I always say we. Japan is 'We" it's never I. "We in Japan". That is how we think. Again a language and cultural issue. I always consider 'we'. If people took as much time and trouble to study  Japanese as they did the arts? The arts are intrinsically tied to the Japanese language in everything we do with both Confucian and Buddhist deeper meaning. Very easy to write one page describing one word in Japanese.
> ...


If that's what it has grown into in the West, some arts were Westernized in Japan. Nihon Goshin AIkido has been about self-defense since it's inception in Hokkaido in the 1940's. The founder put it in the name of the art.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> To the best of my knowledge only 2% of Japanese practice



That's probably not far off what it is in other countries. It's hard to find good statistics on it though. I did find one survey reporting about 5% of Americans reported practicing a martial art "at least once in the last year." I'd bet the percentage engaged in _consistent_ practice is significantly lower, though.



Hyoho said:


> Well as you said it's both if we want a better understanding. I guess I always say we.



I apologize, but I'm still having trouble following your meaning. Are you saying that both Japanese need to understand non-Japanese culture and non-Japanese need to understand Japanese culture? I guess I can see how that could be helpful for transmission of traditional Japanese arts to the rest of the world, but what does it have to do with the vast majority of martial arts which are not Japanese?



Hyoho said:


> It would be nice if it was universal but I see so may things written here that bear no resemblance to Japan although people seem to thing they do.



Is this a response to my statement that "martial arts are a universal feature of human culture"?

Martial arts _are_ a universal feature of human culture, but obviously _Japanese_ martial arts are not universal. No one should expect the practice of Kali, Capoeira, Glima, Boxing, Savate, Choy Li Fut, Greco-Roman wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, Bando, Western Fencing, Silat, or thousands of other non-Japanese arts to follow the specific culture of Japanese Budo.

Even most arts which have some historical connection to Japan have gone their own way, based on the local culture. BJJ, Sambo, and TKD have roots in Japanese arts, but they are not Japanese. That's pretty much what you would expect and there is nothing wrong with that.

Tae Kwon Do actually is a pretty instructive example of how the process works. The Okinawans took Chinese martial arts (particularly Fujian White Crane) and fused them with local traditions (Te) to form Okinawan Karate. The Japanese took Okinawan Karate, but put it through their own cultural filter to create systems of Japanese Karate which were visibly different from the Okinawan approach. The Koreans took (primarily) Japanese Karate systems and over time transformed them into a distinctly Korean art.

That does leave those systems of Japanese origin which are practiced worldwide but which are still identified as Japanese, for example Judo, Aikido, and Kendo. Certain elements of Japanese culture and tradition are taught alongside the technical aspects of these arts, but I'm sure those elements as grasped by most non-Japanese are minimal, fragmented, distorted, or outright incorrect in a large percentage of cases. With your background, you are in an excellent position to offer clarification of those elements for those who practice those arts and wish to better understand those parts of the tradition. It's just confusing when you make comments which seem to apply that perspective to martial arts as a whole.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> My teacher considered that future of M.A. lay outside Japan. But to do it we need to know what their culture is and how they tick
> 
> Let's just say that their concept as whole taking in consideration their attitude to foreign countries is different. You can sit next to two Japanese talking as if they are within a glass bubble visiting other countries with comments like "I am going out tonight to meet the foreigners". Needless to say Japanese that have lived outside think differently.
> 
> ...


it took me a while to get that you actually don't distinguish between martial arts amd Japanese martial arts. 

No can of worms for me, now that I get what where you're coming from, although you may want to bear in mind that there are non Japanese martial arts. And while some surely have an interest in adopting Japanese culture, many do not.


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## Hyoho (Mar 12, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's probably not far off what it is in other countries. It's hard to find good statistics on it though. I did find one survey reporting about 5% of Americans reported practicing a martial art "at least once in the last year." I'd bet the percentage engaged in _consistent_ practice is significantly lower, though.
> 
> 
> I apologize, but I'm still having trouble following your meaning. Are you saying that both Japanese need to understand non-Japanese culture and non-Japanese need to understand Japanese culture? I guess I can see how that could be helpful for transmission of traditional Japanese arts to the rest of the world, but what does it have to do with the vast majority of martial arts which are not Japanese?
> ...



Japans child population has dropped around 90% since around 1990. I saw a time when I would travel around teaching Budo at schools Uni and Police Dojo because there were not enough teachers. The reason for this of course was the banning of Budo after WWll. Over 850.000 people in the prefecture and just four of us had to field a teachers team in our age group when there should be five. What was an intake of 400 new students into high school in 2005 dropped to 35. The karate dojo at the university had just 4 students and no sensei.  An American friend who does Iaijutsu went to watch last years Prefectural iaido championships. Only three turned up.

For sure I have more students in the Western countries than the Hombu has in Japan

In answer to your next comment. I was referring to Japanese classical arts only. My apologies if I did not make myself more clear. 

As to the ones mentioned at the bottom. I would totally agree There already have been changes that the Japanese do not identify with that have not produced good results. 

Like many things religion, politics whatever in MA some people tend to take the bits that suit them and disregards the rest. In some cases that may lead to improvement, but in others it just creates a watered down mishmash of results.


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## Hyoho (Mar 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If that's what it has grown into in the West, some arts were Westernized in Japan. Nihon Goshin AIkido has been about self-defense since it's inception in Hokkaido in the 1940's. The founder put it in the name of the art.



To my mind Aikido always has been about self defense.

What I meant was you just don't see places in Japan where people go to learn to defend themselves. It's "a way" and a black belt is a qualified beginner in that way.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Japans child population has dropped around 90% since around 1990


What age range are you including as child population? From what I can find online, the cohort aged 0-14 in Japan dropped from 18.2% of the population in 1990 to 12.4% in 2017. (Or from roughly 22.5 million individuals in 1990 to 15.72 million today, given the total population of the time.) That's a pretty sharp decline, but closer to 30% than 90%. Did you have a more limited age cohort in mind?



Hyoho said:


> The karate dojo at the university had just 4 students and no sensei. An American friend who does Iaijutsu went to watch last years Prefectural iaido championships. Only three turned up.



Do you think this is related to the demographic shifts or to a drop in general interest in martial arts or to a drop in interest in those particular martial arts?



Hyoho said:


> For sure I have more students in the Western countries than the Hombu has in Japan



Is that for Kendo or for your Koryu students? (Also, can you remind me which ryu those are? I know you do Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, right? Don't you do one or two others as well?)

I wonder if one factor is the human tendency to glamorize arts from a foreign culture. To many Westerners, there is a definite mystique to the Koryu arts which may not be there for the typical Japanese. On the flip side, Catch Wrestling went nearly (not entirely) extinct in the West during the period that the art was being spread in Japan to professional wrestlers by Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson.


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## Hyoho (Mar 12, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What age range are you including as child population? From what I can find online, the cohort aged 0-14 in Japan dropped from 18.2% of the population in 1990 to 12.4% in 2017. (Or from roughly 22.5 million individuals in 1990 to 15.72 million today, given the total population of the time.) That's a pretty sharp decline, but closer to 30% than 90%. Did you have a more limited age cohort in mind?
> 
> Do you think this is related to the demographic shifts or to a drop in general interest in martial arts or to a drop in interest in those particular martial arts?
> 
> ...



I am going on regular staff meetings and seminars of high schools. My kindergarden if anything showed an increase in members.  Thinking back those figures might have applied to my prefecture only.

I am not really sure about karate population throughout out the rest of Japan. Nearly all the people I met live in Okinawa.

I taught Kendo in Japan. I have not coached any foreign teams for some years now. I used to do a bit in Korea and Denmark. I am also an Iaido Yudansha.  I gave up on Dan grades at 42 to concentrate on Koryu. HNIR Menkyo - 12th Shihan of Choken Battojutsu Kageryu.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 13, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> HNIR Menkyo - 12th Shihan of Choken Battojutsu Kageryu.


It must be kind of strange as a non-Japanese person having the responsibility for the preservation of a piece of Japanese cultural legacy - especially with what you've mentioned about the common Japanese attitude towards foreigners. If you ever wanted to write something about the journey and experiences which lead you to that point I'm sure it would be fascinating reading.


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## Hyoho (Mar 13, 2017)

I remember the day when everyone used to openly stare. people would come up to me with my shopping basket to see what the foreigner ate for food. Same stuff of course. A good friend who arrived with the occupational forces said everyone would actually cross the road to the other side when he walked along a path. 

People used to openly stare. people would come up to me with my shopping basket to see what the foreigner ate for food.It has been about indoctrination about people they have never met. Much the same as Westerners have been taught about "The terrible Japs".

Monbusho (Japan Education) Gaimusho (cultural office) and Bunkacho Cultural office introduced a program after I had arrived aimed at breaking these barriers. It was under the auspices of teaching English to kids but its purpose was to get Japanese used to foreigners.

They really don't want to change that much. Did a seminar some years ago in the UK and was put in a beautiful hotel. Four poster beds, A breakfast buffet spread fit for a king. I managed one morning to sample it. After that it was an early morning call and sit on the floor on newspaper in bedroom to eat Japanese noodles, seaweed and rice.


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## Juany118 (Mar 14, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> The thing about lineages in Chinese martial arts is a lot of people claim them based on the fact they trained with the guy a couple times. And in CMA that is not how it works. If it was I would have a lineage to the Chen Family from Chen Zhenglei, 2 lineages to Yip Man, a couple to different Bagua families and at least 3 in Xingyiquan, Heck While I'm at it I might as well claim a Chen family lineage to Chen Xiawang too because I once had a rather long, and interesting, phone conversation with Ren Guangyi about Chen Taijiquan. But the reality of lineage in the CMA world is I have none of those. So be careful when asking about lineages in CMA.
> 
> What I do have
> 
> ...



Agreed.  I am also not big on Lineage, you can learn from the creator of a system but that doesn't mean squat about how well you perform.  That said for the two arts I currently study... (Using only 20th century personages, I think the first in each is well known enough to be a fair starting point, especially the Kali that is second since it is Guro Dan's system)

Yip Man>William Cheung>Keith Mazza>My Sifu/Guro>me

Dan Inosanto>Paul Vunak>James Keating>My Sifu/Guro>Me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Yip Man>William Cheung>Keith Mazza>My Sifu/Guro>me


Ha, I'm 2 generation above you. You need to call me Shi-Gong. 

Yip Man > Jimmy Kao > me


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## kuniggety (Mar 14, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Ha, I'm 2 generation above you. You need to call me Shi-Gong.
> 
> Yip Man > Jimmy Kao > me



So, Shi-Gong means old fart?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Agreed.  I am also not big on Lineage, you can learn from the creator of a system but that doesn't mean squat about how well you perform.  That said for the two arts I currently study... (Using only 20th century personages, I think the first in each is well known enough to be a fair starting point, especially the Kali that is second since it is Guro Dan's system)
> 
> Yip Man>William Cheung>Keith Mazza>My Sifu/Guro>me
> 
> Dan Inosanto>Paul Vunak>James Keating>My Sifu/Guro>Me.


I'll go so far as to say that oftentimes the founder's version isn't the best. Someone comes along and refines it nicely from the original version. The founder of a system may have been a genius (let's just say he/she was), but another very good instructor will still be able to improve upon his work. Despite what some will claim, there is no system so perfectly refined that it cannot still improve.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 14, 2017)

BigJavi973 said:


> Buying your black belt/sash is completely different than earning one



So were did you buy yours?


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Agreed.  I am also not big on Lineage, you can learn from the creator of a system but that doesn't mean squat about how well you perform.  That said for the two arts I currently study... (Using only 20th century personages, I think the first in each is well known enough to be a fair starting point, especially the Kali that is second since it is Guro Dan's system)
> 
> Yip Man>William Cheung>Keith Mazza>My Sifu/Guro>me
> 
> Dan Inosanto>Paul Vunak>James Keating>My Sifu/Guro>Me.


Lineage can tell you two things.  If you're a novice, it can communicate that you are receiving quality instruction.  "Oh, Buka, you train with Rickson Gracie?  That's pretty cool.  You're learning top notch BJJ."

If you've been ranked, it can lend weight and credibility to your skills.  "You received your Black Belt from Rickson Gracie?  Wow, Buka.  He doesn't hand those out lightly."


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2017)

Steve said:


> Lineage can tell you two things.  If you're a novice, it can communicate that you are receiving quality instruction.  "Oh, Buka, you train with Rickson Gracie?  That's pretty cool.  You're learning top notch BJJ."
> 
> If you've been ranked, it can lend weight and credibility to your skills.  "You received your Black Belt from Rickson Gracie?  Wow, Buka.  He doesn't hand those out lightly."


I somewhat disagree with the former. Most beginners don't have the knowledge to tell the difference between good credentials and bad ones. They know "famous" and "never heard of". Now, in BJJ, that mostly means if there's the last name "Gracie" in the recent lineage, it's helpful (even beginners will probably recognize that name). But there are plenty of areas of MA where the famous names aren't as consistent producers of good students.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I somewhat disagree with the former. Most beginners don't have the knowledge to tell the difference between good credentials and bad ones. They know "famous" and "never heard of". Now, in BJJ, that mostly means if there's the last name "Gracie" in the recent lineage, it's helpful (even beginners will probably recognize that name). But there are plenty of areas of MA where the famous names aren't as consistent producers of good students.


Totally agree.   What I mean is what we do it around here pretty routinely.  Guy says, "I'm looking at this school.  Says the school owner is Joe Blow."  We look and say, "Oh, I don't know Joe Blow, but if he got his black belt from Saulo Ribiero, he's probably legit."   I don't know Joe Blow.  Never heard of him, but his affiliation to Saulo speaks to his skill.  So, if you're a white belt or blue belt training with Joe Blow, you can feel pretty comfortable acknowledging that the guy is legit. 

Of course, that doesn't speak to his skill as an instructor, but that's an aside to lineage.


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2017)

Steve said:


> Lineage can tell you two things.  If you're a novice, it can communicate that you are receiving quality instruction.  "Oh, Buka, you train with Rickson Gracie?  That's pretty cool.  You're learning top notch BJJ."
> 
> If you've been ranked, it can lend weight and credibility to your skills.  "You received your Black Belt from Rickson Gracie?  Wow, Buka.  He doesn't hand those out lightly."



Lineage can help going forward, too.

Fifteen miles from where I now sit is a school run by Professor Luis Heredia. If I'm going to go anywhere, it's right there. (well, duh)


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 14, 2017)

Knowing lineage can have a few benefits.

For those of us who are interested in history, it can help understand the background and development of what we study.

We may discover personal connections in the overlap of our lineages.

For those who know enough about an art to be familiar with the stylistic divergences between different teaching lineages, it may give us a clue as to which school of a given art might fit us better. (This is far from infallible, especially for those arts which allow a high degree of personal expression. Every one of the black belts at my school has a style which is personal enough that you wouldn't necessarily guess we came from the same school, let alone the same Carlson Gracie lineage.)

For individuals who have been granted some sort of rank or teaching credentials, it can form a line of validation which may be useful in deciding whether someone has legitimate skills and knowledge. You may not know me from Adam, but if you know that Carlson Gracie was an accomplished fighter and trainer of champions and you know Carlson Gracie vouched for the skill and knowledge of Carlson Gracie Jr. and you know Carlson Jr. vouches for the skill and knowledge of Mike O'Donnell and you know Mike O'Donnell vouches for the skill and knowledge of Tony Dismukes, then you might conclude that maybe I have something to offer.

That last point, however, rests on having some pre-existing knowledge of the qualifications of the persons handing out those initial credentials and the general standards of the art. That's why I find it a bit silly when people create their own arts and promoted themselves to 10th dan. They may or may not be great martial artists deserving of recognition, but the rank carries no meaningful information. They might as well declare that their rank is a 24th gloop polka dot beret. We don't know what it means in terms of any objective standard. If they teach a bunch of students who go out and make a positive impression on the martial arts world, so that everybody knows a black belt in Jim-Bob Fu is invariably a badass, then the ranks may start to mean something.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'll go so far as to say that oftentimes the founder's version isn't the best. Someone comes along and refines it nicely from the original version. The founder of a system may have been a genius (let's just say he/she was), but another very good instructor will still be able to improve upon his work. Despite what some will claim, there is no system so perfectly refined that it cannot still improve.


Nothing springs forth from a vacuum, fully formed.


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## Juany118 (Mar 14, 2017)

Steve said:


> Lineage can tell you two things.  If you're a novice, it can communicate that you are receiving quality instruction.  "Oh, Buka, you train with Rickson Gracie?  That's pretty cool.  You're learning top notch BJJ."
> 
> If you've been ranked, it can lend weight and credibility to your skills.  "You received your Black Belt from Rickson Gracie?  Wow, Buka.  He doesn't hand those out lightly."




By lineage I mean going beyond your personal instructor and their reputation to those before.  

That said my purpose in learning MA is rather specific.  I know people who are black belts under her reputable instructors.  They do great inside their school, against people studying the same thing.  However at least one that I know got the short end when he ended up in a fight outside the dojo.  It's on the street where lineage, globally, means nothing imo.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> By lineage I mean going beyond your personal instructor and their reputation to those before.
> 
> That said my purpose in learning MA is rather specific.  I know people who are black belts under her reputable instructors.  They do great inside their school, against people studying the same thing.  However at least one that I know got the short end when he ended up in a fight outside the dojo.  It's on the street where lineage, globally, means nothing imo.


YMMV.


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## Juany118 (Mar 14, 2017)

Steve said:


> YMMV.


Exactly


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## Dylan9d (Mar 15, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> By lineage I mean going beyond your personal instructor and their reputation to those before.
> 
> That said my purpose in learning MA is rather specific.  I know people who are black belts under her reputable instructors.  *They do great inside their school, against people studying the same thing.*  However at least one that I know got the short end when he ended up in a fight outside the dojo.  It's on the street where lineage, globally, means nothing imo.



Wing Chun?


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## Juany118 (Mar 15, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Wing Chun?



Not my WC at least, though I admit it is a weakness in some schools.  We do all the "regular" training of course but my Sifu, and his, are also Department of Justice and Defense Combatives instructors (his Sifu also is a firearms instructor for the same).  As such they incorporate "street" applicable training.

Whether it be taking advantage of the fact that some of us have decent knowledge in other Martial Arts, or simply making sure you square up partners of different experience.  You may or may not be surprised how useful it is to have a newer, but aggressive, student doing the unexpected because they don't really know the playbook yet.  My school also teaches Kali in parallel, it's not two separate classes and that likely helps as well because while there are some similarities there are also clear differences as well.  

I often think I lucked out finding both this school and Sifu/Guro.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My understanding of the koryu approach (from what Chris Parker has said) is that they maintain the tradition and principles, but don't attempt to maintiain it entirely without change.



Take my comments as an example of giving a wide window into a very narrow field... with very different views in different directions... so, yes, but no at the same time. Speaking broadly (and accurately as one can, being so general), the "koryu approach" is to look after the Koryu itself. Exactly how that is done is up to the Ryu itself, it's current generation/head, and more, but the emphasis is always on what is best for the Ryu... whether that means adapting, changing, preserving, stagnating in order to retain, or simply ending the school itself (another very definite possibility).

And, for the record, Watkins-sensei (Hyoho) is the real authority on such things here... 

For my take on lineage, and it's importance, luckily it's all been put down before... very clearly and eloquently... by Mr Ellis Amdur, Shihan of Toda-ha Buko Ryu and Araki Ryu, as well as teaching his own form of Aikido, and other modern approaches. The Importance of Paper in Japanese Martial Traditions – 古現武道

While dealing largely with both classical arts and "neo-classical" ones, it also deals with modern systems, and the importance of lineage/teacher relationships in them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 15, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Take my comments as an example of giving a wide window into a very narrow field... with very different views in different directions... so, yes, but no at the same time. Speaking broadly (and accurately as one can, being so general), the "koryu approach" is to look after the Koryu itself. Exactly how that is done is up to the Ryu itself, it's current generation/head, and more, but the emphasis is always on what is best for the Ryu... whether that means adapting, changing, preserving, stagnating in order to retain, or simply ending the school itself (another very definite possibility).
> 
> And, for the record, Watkins-sensei (Hyoho) is the real authority on such things here...
> 
> ...


Thanks for stepping up, Chris. I know the Koryu mindset is/can be different from how others approach the arts. I still sometimes have trouble wrapping my head around what's different, because some of it can be so nearly similar, but still not quite the same.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 15, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Take my comments as an example of giving a wide window into a very narrow field... with very different views in different directions... so, yes, but no at the same time. Speaking broadly (and accurately as one can, being so general), the "koryu approach" is to look after the Koryu itself. Exactly how that is done is up to the Ryu itself, it's current generation/head, and more, but the emphasis is always on what is best for the Ryu... whether that means adapting, changing, preserving, stagnating in order to retain, or simply ending the school itself (another very definite possibility).
> 
> And, for the record, Watkins-sensei (Hyoho) is the real authority on such things here...
> 
> ...


Just finished the article from your link. I don't find anything there that's much different from my own view. I don't care about lineage from a functional perspective, though it can be a helpful indicator (as with the continuous link with koryu). So, if someone claims no lineage, I am only concerned with his/her ability to do and/or teach effectively. If someone claims lineage (whether specific instructors or a style), then it is something I want to be able to verify, simply because they made the claim. And I'm okay with gaps in evidence, if there's some reasonable explanation (and not a lot of defensiveness when asked). Heck, we have gaps in the history of NGA. I've looked at what I can look at, and gotten information from some outside NGA, and I'm satisfied that the gaps are reasonable.


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## swhitney222 (Mar 24, 2017)

I have tried for a few years to research my past lineage for a historical background. mostly because my past instructor will not tell anyone who he studied from in both his arts Kenpo and Wing Chun. He claims to have taken an Oath not to reveal Both his Kenpo teacher and his Wing Chun teacher. When I started martial arts Lineage was not even something that was thought of. I was more into the practicality and effectiveness of the art. The reason for the research is that my past instructor developed his own system of Kenpo by taking Ed Parker's name and attacks from EPAK and creating his own defenses techniques. and after making it through his system my focus started to change and I began to research Ed Parker's actual system. so I wanted to know why he changed his system and what background he came from, mostly because what he created did not flow and move like people from EPAK. So he wouldn't answer my questions and I moved on to another teacher. but to Quote Tony Dismukes  "For those of us who are interested in history, it can help understand the background and development of what we study."

2000-2015 Past Lineage (American Kenpo/Wing Chun)
?? Mystery??? ----> Mike Agbay ----> Me
2014-Current Lineage (Ed Parker's American Kenpo)
Chow --> Ed Parker -->Gilbert Velez ---> Doreen Direnzo (Coogliandro) ---> Dave Staples ----> Me


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 24, 2017)

swhitney222 said:


> He claims to have taken an Oath not to reveal Both his Kenpo teacher and his Wing Chun teacher.


You've probably already figured this out already, but this is total bunk. No instructor makes his students swear an oath not to reveal who taught them. Even if you managed to find one paranoid teacher with such a rule, I can't imagine finding two in a single lifetime.

Now it's possible the guy swore an oath _to himself_ not to tell anybody that info. If so, it's probably for some reason like a falling out with his former instructors, he learned from videos, he lied about his rank, etc..


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 24, 2017)

swhitney222 said:


> I have tried for a few years to research my past lineage for a historical background. mostly because my past instructor will not tell anyone who he studied from in both his arts Kenpo and Wing Chun. He claims to have taken an Oath not to reveal Both his Kenpo teacher and his Wing Chun teacher. When I started martial arts Lineage was not even something that was thought of. I was more into the practicality and effectiveness of the art. The reason for the research is that my past instructor developed his own system of Kenpo by taking Ed Parker's name and attacks from EPAK and creating his own defenses techniques. and after making it through his system my focus started to change and I began to research Ed Parker's actual system. so I wanted to know why he changed his system and what background he came from, mostly because what he created did not flow and move like people from EPAK. So he wouldn't answer my questions and I moved on to another teacher. but to Quote Tony Dismukes  "For those of us who are interested in history, it can help understand the background and development of what we study."
> 
> 2000-2015 Past Lineage (American Kenpo/Wing Chun)
> ?? Mystery??? ----> Mike Agbay ----> Me
> ...


Just my take on this. If someone says they took an oath never to reveal their instructor, they probably don't have any decent background. There may be exceptions, but I wouldn't accept their word that they were. Only if they were truly amazing, both as a practitioner and as an instructor, would I even entertain the thought of training with them.


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## swhitney222 (Mar 24, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You've probably already figured this out already, but this is total bunk. No instructor makes his students swear an oath not to reveal who taught them. Even if you managed to find one paranoid teacher with such a rule, I can't imagine finding two in a single lifetime.


Yup 



gpseymour said:


> If someone says they took an oath never to reveal their instructor, they probably don't have any decent background. There may be exceptions, but I wouldn't accept their word that they were.



I agree,

but when I started I was 15 years old and had no education in the martial arts. lineage was not even an idea and was more of an assumption. Once the topic came up I was to far into the system and teaching for him to turn back. So I completed his entire system and moved on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 24, 2017)

swhitney222 said:


> Yup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This, unfortunately, is how folks like that stay in business. Most of us don't know enough early in our training to spot this, especially those of us who grew up watching martial arts movies of the 70's, where this kind of nonsense was commonly seen. Most of us just got lucky and found someone who was a good instructor. I remember my best friend found someone I know now was probably like that guy.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 24, 2017)

this is why the internet and web sight like this are so important. In the past information was not availible we had to accept what was told to us. now with the internet people should be able to know more before starting.  but knowing that they should research is another factor.
knowing what you should be looking for is also a problem for new students.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> this is why the internet and web sight like this are so important. In the past information was not availible we had to accept what was told to us. now with the internet people should be able to know more before starting.  but knowing that they should research is another factor.
> knowing what you should be looking for is also a problem for new students.


And I still see schools/programs with a one-page website, with no information about the instructor, the art, their focus, or anything. Just a picture, the address, and maybe a phone number. That would have been useful in 1997.


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## Buka (Mar 24, 2017)

A martial arts guy taking an oath to shut up about anything is like a fish swearing not to swim.


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## JR 137 (Mar 24, 2017)

swhitney222 said:


> I have tried for a few years to research my past lineage for a historical background. mostly because my past instructor will not tell anyone who he studied from in both his arts Kenpo and Wing Chun. He claims to have taken an Oath not to reveal Both his Kenpo teacher and his Wing Chun teacher. When I started martial arts Lineage was not even something that was thought of. I was more into the practicality and effectiveness of the art. The reason for the research is that my past instructor developed his own system of Kenpo by taking Ed Parker's name and attacks from EPAK and creating his own defenses techniques. and after making it through his system my focus started to change and I began to research Ed Parker's actual system. so I wanted to know why he changed his system and what background he came from, mostly because what he created did not flow and move like people from EPAK. So he wouldn't answer my questions and I moved on to another teacher. but to Quote Tony Dismukes  "For those of us who are interested in history, it can help understand the background and development of what we study."
> 
> 2000-2015 Past Lineage (American Kenpo/Wing Chun)
> ?? Mystery??? ----> Mike Agbay ----> Me
> ...



I could see an instructor take not an oath to never reveal who his/her teacher is/was...

The student is so awful that the instructor says "If you EVER tell ANYONE I'm your teacher, I'll f'ing kill you!"


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## Jenna (Mar 25, 2017)

Buka said:


> A martial arts guy taking an oath to shut up about anything is like a fish swearing not to swim.


..these talking fish again! wait.. what those are not normal cigarettes you been toking!


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