# the sensory experience of Qi.



## Leigh Blyth (Jun 27, 2019)

Conscious proprioception - What I believe to be the sensory experience of Qi .....

Conscious proprioception:

_"The ability to sense the position of your body in space and being aware of where you should be able to move." _

Becoming aware of the sensory feedback from the 5 main muscles of movement is crucial for developing your conscious proprioceptive skills and feeling the balance of your body.  

Firstly focusing on your Base-Line pelvic floor and rectus abdominis muscles as your central pillar of strength. Feeling the position of the linea alba, the primary reference for body alignment on the median plane.  

Seeing the sparkles in my mind, feeling the condition of my body.    Becoming aware of blank spaces where there's restrictions in my connective tissue, reducing my range of movement and 'blocking' the signals.   


Thoughts from those with much more experience / learning than  me on this subject ?? !


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## Buka (Jun 27, 2019)

As a basic refresher for anyone interested....
Proprioception refers to the body's ability to perceive its own position in space. An easy example to understand - did you ever slip and lose your balance for a second? You know how your arms fly out at odd angles as your body rights itself? You never have to think about where your arms go, they just go there trying to correct your balance. That's proprioception in action.

Another way to understand it, and a great exercise to sharpen and increase your proprioception.   (And that of any of your students with balance problems, or students rehabbing an injury or students with one leg slightly shorter than the other - in other words anybody)

Stand at your kitchen counter. Place your fingertips on the counter. Raise one leg then lift your fingertips. You will feel your base leg wobble to different points on the bottom of your foot as it tries to correct your balance. That's proprioception in action. While doing this if your balance slightly fails and you feel you have to put your foot down or your hands back on the counter - just tap your fingertips there for a second and correct your balance and raise the fingertips right back up. The exercise is easy for practicing Martial Artists. Harder  for folks out of shape or rehabbing, harder still the older you get. If it's too easy for you, just slightly rise up on your tip toes.

I worked for some years in a physical therapy unit that catered to athletes and people with knee replacements. This was one of the exercises we used for both groups. A lot of the people from there still stay in touch with me from time to time. They tell me that in the morning when they're making coffee or tea, they tell just stay at the counter doing that exercise while the water heats. Apparently it's also helped their golf game quite a bit, or so they say. I don't know how, other than basic better balance, but whatever.

Anyway, if you have a student with balance issues, the counter- top, one foot exercises will help them proprioceptive wise.

As a side note....drinking drastically messes up your proprioception. Hence Field Sobriety tests.


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## Leigh Blyth (Jun 30, 2019)

@Buka nice illustration of proprioception.   

As I've become consciously aware of the relative positions of the main muscles of movement (pelvic floor, rectus abdominis, gluteus maximus, rectus femoris, trapezius) I can see/sense/visualise my body in my mind.   The sparkles, the lights, the flashes - a representation of the condition of my body this feels like the mysterious Qi to me.   

A flow,  an energy, does that sound familiar to anyone more experienced with such matters?  The "internal martial arts" based on feeling the main muscles and experiencing this?

Very hard to put into words which is why I hope others can help!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2019)

Leigh Blyth said:


> @Buka nice illustration of proprioception.
> 
> As I've become consciously aware of the relative positions of the main muscles of movement (pelvic floor, rectus abdominis, gluteus maximus, rectus femoris, trapezius) I can see/sense/visualise my body in my mind.   The sparkles, the lights, the flashes - a representation of the condition of my body this feels like the mysterious Qi to me.
> 
> ...


I don't think there's any need for a mysterious force in explaining proprioception. We've (as a people) done a decent job of plumbing the depths of the neural system to understand much of how this process works. I still like using the shorthand of ki/qi to describe this, but not to explain it. In other words, I'll refer to "extending ki", to describe a fairly complex use of tension and relaxation that's a fairly simple experience. Once folks understand the shorthand, the term "ki" has a fairly mundane meaning for them, and still works in all the ways I've ever seen it reliably used (meaning this excludes no-touch responses and the like).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2019)

Buka said:


> As a basic refresher for anyone interested....
> Proprioception refers to the body's ability to perceive its own position in space. An easy example to understand - did you ever slip and lose your balance for a second? You know how your arms fly out at odd angles as your body rights itself? You never have to think about where your arms go, they just go there trying to correct your balance. That's proprioception in action.
> 
> Another way to understand it, and a great exercise to sharpen and increase your proprioception.   (And that of any of your students with balance problems, or students rehabbing an injury or students with one leg slightly shorter than the other - in other words anybody)
> ...


If I were going back to start over at 20-something, I'd probably go to school to train as a physical therapist. I've learned some really good exercises I use with students (like the one you describe here) when getting physical therapy for myself.


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## Leigh Blyth (Jun 30, 2019)

Not to explain proprioception - to explain the conscious awareness of the the sensory feedback that is part of proprioception. 

Conscious proprioception.
"The ability to sense the position of your body in space and being aware of where you should be able to move."
Conscious proprioception
An awareness of the sensory feedback your body provides about the position of your body.
Feeling the relative position, motion and equilibrium of each of your main muscles of movement. (Pelvic floor, rectus abdominis, gluteus maximus, rectus femoris, trapezius.)
Feeling the relative alignment of the anatomical structures on the median plane. (Linea alba, supraspinous and nuchal ligaments.)
Feeling where your natural range of movement should be able to take you.
Being able to see/sense/visualise your presence in space.   The sensory experience of Qi I believe.

The basic idea:
Throughout the body, various 'sensors' produce sensory feedback (information) that is sent to the brain (via our nerves).
The brain processes the feedback about our position and movement for the sense known as proprioception. 
Proprioception: "The ability to sense stimuli arising within the body regarding position, motion, and equilibrium of your body."
Your sense of proprioception will be running in the background, as your body subconsciously makes adjustments in order to maintain a 'functional posture'.
Conscious proprioception is when we are aware of this proprioceptive information our body and brain has for us.  When we can consciously sense/feel:
The position of the parts of our body.
The motion of our body, and where we should be able to move (rom).
Our equilibrium - whether the body is balanced or not.
Your Base-Line muscles and conscious proprioception.
conscious proprioception starts with your baseline pelvic floor and rectus abdominis muscles. our core pillar of strength that allows us to work through the tension and treat chronic pain and fibromyalgia naturally by regaining our full range of natural movement and feeling our Qi.
To describe the position of something you need a reference.
→ The position of the rest of your body is relative to your Base-Line.
To describe a motion (a change in position) a reference is also needed.
→ All movement should originate from your Base-Line.
To be in equilibrium means to be balanced, but balanced around what?
→ Balance either side of the median plane.


sorry about the dodgy copy and paste formatting.


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## jobo (Jun 30, 2019)

Leigh Blyth said:


> Not to explain proprioception - to explain the conscious awareness of the the sensory feedback that is part of proprioception.
> 
> Conscious proprioception.
> "The ability to sense the position of your body in space and being aware of where you should be able to move."
> ...


I'm struggling to understand why you want to be CONSCIOUSLY,aware,  of your position in space  , that's what todderlers and drunks and learner driver have, advanced movement skill happen once your subconsciously aware of your position, and you no longer have to plan not to fall over or walk into walls  or drive into lamp posts ! your subconscious portion of the brain working far faster than your conscious portion

I can see that's it's useful as a remediation exercise, but its not where you want to be long term


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 30, 2019)

Leigh Blyth said:


> Not to explain proprioception - to explain the conscious awareness of the the sensory feedback that is part of proprioception.
> 
> Conscious proprioception.
> "The ability to sense the position of your body in space and being aware of where you should be able to move."
> ...


 I do all of this on a daily basis.  I learned how 50 years ago.  The techniques for developing this evolved over hundreds of years before being passed on to me.  I have a special name for it  -  *kata*


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## jobo (Jun 30, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> I do all of this on a daily basis.  I learned how 50 years ago.  The techniques for developing this evolved over hundreds of years before being passed on to me.  I have a special name for it  -  *kata*


That would only be so if your fighting in the same room as your practising kata, make the place bigger or smalers out obstacles in the way and do three steps nire or less than your kata and you kata  awareness is of little use to you


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> That would only be so if your fighting in the same room as your practising kata, make the place bigger or smalers out obstacles in the way and do three steps nire or less than your kata and you kata  awareness is of little use to you[/QUOTE
> You may not have a real understanding of kata.  Many practitioners do not.  It was not developed as a full length choreographed routine, but rather as a collection of individual/short series of techniques and positions combined together as a convenient method of training.   Besides, I believe Leigh is speaking of internal biofeedback of one's own body position/dynamics, muscle memory, etc. in relation to itself.  By having this body awareness and understanding the kata, one can easily adapt one's movement to allow its performance in any size space.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2019)

no to develop high degree  of proprioception: "The ability to sense the position of your body in space and compensate your movement accordingly

,your going to have to explore/ predict the limits of the area with out looking, otherwise known as banging into walls or going out of bounds and also predict the speed, trajectory and intersection  with  other movable components, say people. and be able to compensate your movements on the fly,,

 solo kata is not going to achieve that, unless they do in deed bang into walls and have random people doing random things in the same place at the same timen. you could try doing kata in a shopping mall when the Christmas rush is on, that might work

in general terms playing tennis would be a far better exercise, playing five a side soccer with walls as bounds even more so. in fact driving to the dojo is better

having a good understanding of where your body is in relation to its self,  ie you know where your arms is, seem a rather basic skill, most people know where their arm is , ?

Conscious proprioception: seems a red hearing to me  it's when your no longer conscious of it,tha,  your good !


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2019)

jobo said:


> no to develop high degree  of proprioception: "The ability to sense the position of your body in space and compensate your movement accordingly
> 
> ,your going to have to explore/ predict the limits of the area with out looking, otherwise known as banging into walls or going out of bounds and also predict the speed, trajectory and intersection  with  other movable components, say people. and be able to compensate your movements on the fly,,
> 
> ...


Proprioception doesn't necessarily (or, actually, by definition) involve the location of other objects - just the location of body parts. I think the poster's point was that during kata they pay conscious attention to the relative location and position of many parts of their body.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 2, 2019)

Notice the IR people don't spend a lot of time navel gazing, we just do it. We use simpler words like hara, tanden, chinkuchi, and they amount to body mechanics and tai sabaki.

"Techniques will occur in the absence of conscious thought."


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2019)

Leigh Blyth said:


> Conscious proprioception - What I believe to be the sensory experience of Qi .....
> 
> Conscious proprioception:
> 
> ...





gpseymour said:


> Proprioception doesn't necessarily (or, actually, by definition) involve the location of other objects - just the location of body parts. I think the poster's point was that during kata they pay conscious attention to the relative location and position of many parts of their body.


well I may be conflating it slightly with other sensory imputs, but really it does, knowing your bodies position in space requires you to know where space starts and stops, ie the position of other things, at its most simplistic, balance requires you to know where the floor is,i,  relation to your body,which requires input from your eyes/ ears,( balance with your eyes closed being significantly more difficult), but with out that you,  fall over and proprioception is of little use to you in issolation,


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> well I may be conflating it slightly with other sensory imputs, but really it does, knowing your bodies position in space requires you to know where space starts and stops, ie the position of other things, at its most simplistic, balance requires you to know where the floor is,i,  relation to your body,which requires input from your eyes/ ears,( balance with your eyes closed being significantly more difficult), but with out that you,  fall over and proprioception is of little use to you in issolation,


Yes, balance does require relationship to the ground (both "vertical" and the actual ground), but nothing about proprioception is different when there are or are not walls. That's a different issue, entirely. We can use proprioception to avoid the walls once we know they are there, but learning better proprioception doesn't vary depending whether there's walls or not.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, balance does require relationship to the ground (both "vertical" and the actual ground), but nothing about proprioception is different when there are or are not walls. That's a different issue, entirely. We can use proprioception to avoid the walls once we know they are there, but learning better proprioception doesn't vary depending whether there's walls or not.


you said it didn't relly on knowing the position of objects the floor/ the ground and the planet are objects, that you need to know the poison off,, 
and as I explained you cant know your position in space! if you don't the limitations to that space as space is just the SPACE between objects


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> you said it didn't relly on knowing the position of objects the floor/ the ground and the planet are objects, that you need to know the poison off,,
> and as I explained you cant know your position in space! if you don't the limitations to that space as space is just the SPACE between objects


You entirely missed the word "relative". I can, in fact, always know the relative position of my hand (to the rest of my body), irrespective of whether there is a ground or not.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You entirely missed the word "relative". I can, in fact, always know the relative position of my hand (to the rest of my body), irrespective of whether there is a ground or not.


but the ability to use your hands to balance urself, which is a fairly rudimentary example  o its use, is completely dependent on knowing the position of the planet

knowing your hand is at the end of your arm is of fairly limit use unless you were wondering where your gloves are ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> but the ability to use your hands to balance urself, which is a fairly rudimentary example  o its use, is completely dependent on knowing the position of the planet
> 
> knowing your hand is at the end of your arm is of fairly limit use unless you were wondering where your gloves are ?


Proprioception doesn't depend upon the position of the planet. Keeping balance depends upon knowing the position of your body relative to the horizontal plane. It's a distinction of no real importance, but proprioception is concerned with the theoretical horizontal plane for that, and balance requires knowing the shape of the surface (does it match the horizontal plane?). The latter part isn't proprioception - that's the point. Proprioception is just the knowledge of the body's position relative to itself - it combines with other senses for things like balance.


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## jobo (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Proprioception doesn't depend upon the position of the planet. Keeping balance depends upon knowing the position of your body relative to the horizontal plane. It's a distinction of no real importance, but proprioception is concerned with the theoretical horizontal plane for that, and balance requires knowing the shape of the surface (does it match the horizontal plane?). The latter part isn't proprioception - that's the point. Proprioception is just the knowledge of the body's position relative to itself - it combines with other senses for things like balance.


and to know the vertical  you have to know where the exact centre of the planet is, there is no vertical with out out being in relation to an object out side of you, and you don't need to know the shape of the surface in order to balance or blind people couldn't walk

it's was buka that said  balance was an example of proprioception in action, but I notice you're not bombarding him with your fallacious arguments !


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## Leigh Blyth (Jul 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> I'm struggling to understand why you want to be CONSCIOUSLY,aware, of your position in space , that's what todderlers and drunks and learner driver have, advanced movement skill happen once your subconsciously aware of your position, and you no longer have to plan not to fall over or walk into walls or drive into lamp posts ! your subconscious portion of the brain working far faster than your conscious portion
> 
> I can see that's it's useful as a remediation exercise, but its not where you want to be long term




A.  I think the problem with drunks and learner drivers is that they don't have conscious proprioception.    Toddlers have their natural abilities before too much life gets in the way.  

B. I get the thinking that subconscious is better, yes it we could function perfectly on auto-pilot that would be great.   But having the ability to be aware of what is actually happening can only be a good thing IMO, when auto-pilot isn't working well.     If you are perfectly balanced with a full range of movement and able to achieve true alignment with your body then that's great,  but how many can really achieve that?    Remedial exercise/ self improvement??


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## Leigh Blyth (Jul 3, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> I do all of this on a daily basis.



Can you describe the sensation/feeling?  

Visuals?


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## jobo (Jul 3, 2019)

Leigh Blyth said:


> A.  I think the problem with drunks and learner drivers is that they don't have conscious proprioception.    Toddlers have their natural abilities before too much life gets in the way.
> 
> B. I get the thinking that subconscious is better, yes it we could function perfectly on auto-pilot that would be great.   But having the ability to be aware of what is actually happening can only be a good thing IMO, when auto-pilot isn't working well.     If you are perfectly balanced with a full range of movement and able to achieve true alignment with your body then that's great,  but how many can really achieve that?    Remedial exercise/ self improvement??


they ( drunks and toddlers) have to have CONSCIOUS awareness or they fall over, have you never seen a drunk swaying whilst they consciously try to keep their ballance, or the same with someone trying to balance on an inch wide beam, the corrections are in the concious mind when they get use to the balance of the beam, they can just walk, whilst the subconscious mind does the correction for them.

as I say, I can see it as a rehabilitation / improvement tool, but the aim must always be to not be consciously doing things,as that's where performance is improved markedly,

I see where you are coming from, I used to do a lot of mindfullness meditation, one of the exercises was to " communicate " consciously with each and ever part of your body, that's a way of improving your nervous system and your ability to relax muscles, I could feel separately each and every one of my vertebra, not sure if this has any bearing on my control of my body, but out was a neat trick that put me to sleep

I've also been through a process of consciously adjusting my posture, now I don't have to, it does it all on its own


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> and to know the vertical  you have to know where the exact centre of the planet is, there is no vertical with out out being in relation to an object out side of you, and you don't need to know the shape of the surface in order to balance or blind people couldn't walk


Technically, that's true, but proprioception is about relative location of the body. As for shape of the surface, yes, you do need to know that. Do you assume blind people have no sense of pressure in their feet (which is far more reliable for balancing than our eyesight, or we'd have to look straight down all the time)?

You know, this all started because you made a statement that appeared to have an incorrect usage of proprioception. If you'd just said something like, "Wasn't talking only about proprioception, but also about _____" this would be done already.



> it's was buka that said  balance was an example of proprioception in action, but I notice you're not bombarding him with your fallacious arguments !


And proprioception is involved in balance. But it isn't the totality of balance. My first post in this area was a response to you apparently saying basically that kata didn't develop proprioception because walls. Which is nonsense.

You're just banging on saying nothing really useful. I suspect there's nothing informative to come, so we're probably done here.


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## jobo (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Technically, that's true, but proprioception is about relative location of the body. As for shape of the surface, yes, you do need to know that. Do you assume blind people have no sense of pressure in their feet (which is far more reliable for balancing than our eyesight, or we'd have to look straight down all the time)?
> 
> You know, this all started because you made a statement that appeared to have an incorrect usage of proprioception. If you'd just said something like, "Wasn't talking only about proprioception, but also about _____" this would be done already.
> 
> ...


I did say that, in my first reply to you, I said" I may be conflating it with other sences" or something very much like that.

proprioception is of no use to you with out tying it to your other senses, unless I suppose your floating in the vacuum of space, you've still not correct buka for saying balance was an example of proprioception in action, as your point is that every thing else that makes balance possible has nothing to do with it, you just target me for harassment


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> I did say that, in my first reply to you, I said" I may be conflating it with other sences" or something very much like that.
> 
> proprioception is of no use to you with out tying it to your other senses, unless I suppose your floating in the vacuum of space, you've still not correct buka for saying balance was an example of proprioception in action, as your point is that every thing else that makes balance possible has nothing to do with it, you just target me for harassment


Yes, and you immediately tried to "correct" me, never quite getting it right. You didn't just say, "maybe not the right terms, here's what I mean". Mind you, when folks have done EXACTLY that with you in the past, you often stuck with the original word they used, arguing about the original word they used even when they said it wasn't the usage they intended, so I'm not surprised it didn't occur to you that might be a useful statement.


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## jobo (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, and you immediately tried to "correct" me, never quite getting it right. You didn't just say, "maybe not the right terms, here's what I mean". Mind you, when folks have done EXACTLY that with you in the past, you often stuck with the original word they used, arguing about the original word they used even when they said it wasn't the usage they intended, so I'm not surprised it didn't occur to you that might be a useful statement.


you are manifestly wrong about much of what you've said in this discussion, whilst I admitted I may have over stated a point, you've continues to bluster on regardless of the increasing stupidity of your statements, but bizarrely try and paint me as the villain of the peice wh  I admitted my error at the first opportunity


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> you are manifestly wrong about much of what you've said in this discussion, whilst I admitted I may have over stated a point, you've continues to bluster on regardless of the increasing stupidity of your statements, but bizarrely try and paint me as the villain of the peice wh  I admitted my error at the first opportunity


And now you're just insulting randomly. I'm done trying to help you correct your misstatement. We're done.


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## Buka (Jul 5, 2019)

This is from the Encyclopedia of Neuroscience -

*Proprioception*

RedirectingGet rights and content
Proprioception, or kinesthesia, is the sense that lets us perceive the location, movement, and action of parts of the body. It encompasses a complex of sensations, including perception of joint position and movement, muscle force, and effort. These sensations arise from signals of sensory receptors in the muscle, skin, and joints, and from central signals related to motor output. Proprioception enables us to judge limb movements and positions, force, heaviness, stiffness, and viscosity. It combines with other senses to locate external objects relative to the body and contributes to body image. Proprioception is closely tied to the control of movement.

Everybody happy now, kids?


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## Starjumper7 (Sep 11, 2019)

This thread started out to be about chi and ended up being about Proprioception.

There is new research on the much ignored fascia in the body, and the new research says that it is the nerves in the fascia that inform you of the position of arms, legs, etc.

Proprioception is NOT chi, and it has nothing to do with it.

Chi is energy, plain and simple.   It has aspects of electrical and magnetic energy, and more.  The very strange thing about it is how you can control chi inside or outside your body with your mind.


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## EdwardA (Sep 9, 2020)

Leigh Blyth said:


> Can you describe the sensation/feeling?
> 
> Visuals?



I was involved in specific internal investigation (meditation) at a very young age. Initially it was a discovery of self-honesty and inner confict.  Started at 9 years old.  When I started in MA at 14, it went in some added directions.  Here's one.  I had the idea that if I visually removed what was in my mind moving from point A to point B, that might effect my speed.  Many pro athletes use visualization techniques these days, but I had the idea in 1971, and it was more like I was removing something, not changing it.  I personally think it made me faster, but I ended up with another aspect I didn't realize till a few years later.  When I feel a certain level of threat, I go into some sort of mental zone.  Everything goes dark. I have no idea of what I'm doing or going to do.  Its almost like I'm not there, and I only get glempses of what happened, that I can piece together later.  All of my years of training just happen.  I come back to normal conciecness when the guy is down and out....but while I'm in that zone I don't even see, just glimpses and only later after it's done.  It doesn't happen unless somebody crosses a line I can't define very well.

It didn't happen overnight of course...closer to a decade.

I can't put it into text with lots of detail.  It would take pages and pages.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 5, 2022)

My PhD was about proprioception - ‘The Monoamingeric Control of Gamma Motoneurones’.

Feel free to ask me _anything_ about them!


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 5, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> My PhD was about proprioception - ‘The Monoamingeric Control of Gamma Motoneurones’.
> 
> Feel free to ask me _anything_ about them!


"What are the pyrimidal tracts?"

You've got to know this gag, it's the only bit I know that ever involved motor neurons.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> "What are the pyrimidal tracts?"
> 
> You've got to know this gag, it's the only bit I know that ever involved motor neurons.


Ohhhh…I was looking forward to telling you all about them!😢


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 5, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Ohhhh…I was looking forward to telling you all about them!😢


You still can enlighten me.

The snotty dad was wrong right?  It really is "pyramidal" like John Astin says, not "pyramidial" like Mr. Froeger claims.

And he got upper motor neuron wrong.  If he got both wrong, that's even funnier.  I've wondered this since the 1980s.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 5, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> ‘The Monoamingeric Control of Gamma Motoneurones’.  Feel free to ask me _anything_ about them!


OK......    What did one gamma motoneurone say to another when asked "How are you feeling today?"

Answer:  "I'm a little tense."  Hahahaha!


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## Gyakuto (Oct 5, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> OK......    What did one gamma motoneurone say to another when asked "How are you feeling today?"
> 
> Answer:  "I'm a little tense."  Hahahaha!


I don’t get it?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 5, 2022)

Leigh Blyth said:


> @Buka nice illustration of proprioception.
> 
> As I've become consciously aware of the relative positions of the main muscles of movement (pelvic floor, rectus abdominis, gluteus maximus, rectus femoris, trapezius) I can see/sense/visualise my body in my mind.   The sparkles, the lights, the flashes - a representation of the condition of my body this feels like the mysterious Qi to me.
> 
> ...


Start with the bottom of the feet, that is your most common interface with the earth. It’s you in relation to the earth, and you in relation to you. We live in a world where the first force we feel is down, so we have to lift the inside up. Your feet, specifically the bottom of the foot is the place to start. Try to feel the fourth toe. It’s a dead zone for most people. Seek out those dead zones. Feel the inside move the outside. Feel the bottom move the top. Feel the back move the front.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You still can enlighten me.
> 
> The snotty dad was wrong right?  It really is "pyramidal" like John Astin says, not "pyramidial" like Mr. Froeger claims.
> 
> And he got upper motor neuron wrong.  If he got both wrong, that's even funnier.  I've wondered this since the 1980s.


Motor neurones originate in the motor cortex of the brain (their cell bodies making up it’s grey matter…cell bodies are where the ‘computing’ goes on). These send their axons (their ‘wiring’) down through the the body of the brain, through the brainstem and to the spinal cord (theses are called the pyramidal tracts) These are the upper motoneurones. In the spinal cord, they connect (via a ‘synapse’) to a very short interneurone which only traverses the spinal cord and synapses with another motoneurone which leaves the spinal cord (via the ventral root) and goes to the muscle it supplies. This is the lower motoneurone! So upper motoneurone is brain to spinal cord, lower motoneurone is spinal cord to muscle. 

This is why the person in the clip, inexplicably dressed as a pig, was wrong with his answer.

It’s fun to be talking about this stuff again😊


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## Gyakuto (Oct 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Start with the bottom of the feet, that is your most common interface with the earth. It’s you in relation to the earth, and you in relation to you. We live in a world where the first force we feel is down, so we have to lift the inside up. Your feet, specifically the bottom of the foot is the place to start. Try to feel the fourth toe. It’s a dead zone for most people. Seek out those dead zones. Feel the inside move the outside. Feel the bottom move the top. Feel the back move the front.


My fourth toe is a real sensory dead zone as it doesn’t touch the ground! It is very small and has a thin, blade-like nail that grows vertically out of my toe!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 5, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> My fourth toe is a real sensory dead zone as it doesn’t touch the ground! It is very small and has a thin, blade-like nail that grows vertically out of my toe!


You could use it to develop a secret technique!


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 5, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Motor neurones originate in the motor cortex of the brain (their cell bodies making up it’s grey matter…cell bodies are where the ‘computing’ goes on). These send their axons (their ‘wiring’) down through the the body of the brain, through the brainstem and to the spinal cord (theses are called the pyramidal tracts) These are the upper motoneurones. In the spinal cord, they connect (via a ‘synapse’) to a very short interneurone which only traverses the spinal cord and synapses with another motoneurone which leaves the spinal cord (via the ventral root) and goes to the muscle it supplies. This is the lower motoneurone! So upper motoneurone is brain to spinal cord, lower motoneurone is spinal cord to muscle.
> 
> This is why the person in the clip, inexplicably dressed as a pig, was wrong with his answer.
> 
> It’s fun to be talking about this stuff again😊


So what you're saying is "pyramidal" is correct.  

Perfect.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 5, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I don’t get it?


I may be off base, but don't gamma motoneurons keep light continual tension on the muscle fibers?  (I realize it's not the neurons themselves that "flex" but the affected muscle fibers, but the joke impulsively jumped into my head.)  Maybe I'm just not good a neuroscience humor.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 6, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You could use it to develop a secret technique!


Who says I haven't already? (I haven't)


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## Gyakuto (Oct 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> So what you're saying is "pyramidal" is correct.
> 
> Perfect.


Yes. The 'pyramids' of the brain are structures that contain cortical and corticobulbal tracts of white matter (white matter = wiring connections). Pioneer anatomists were clear high on crystal meth when they named various brain structures since they look nothing like pyramids to normal people! They were  also hungry and horny too since there are 'olives' and 'mammillary bodies' in the brain too!🙄


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## Gyakuto (Oct 6, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I may be off base, but don't gamma motoneurons keep light continual tension on the muscle fibers?  (I realize it's not the neurons themselves that "flex" but the affected muscle fibers, but the joke impulsively jumped into my head.)  Maybe I'm just not good a neuroscience humor.


Oh I see 😀😂🤣 That's a good one! Yes they do...or rather they keep tension on the modified intrafusal muscles fibres within the muscle spindle rather than the skeletal (extrafusal) muscle. They act like an angler, keeping a bit of tension in the line (intrafusal fibres) so they know where the fish is. Let the fishing line go slack and you have no information on where fishy is located so reel it in, re-establish tension and you get loads of fish-position data back. 

You're are more knowledgeable than my final year students were, isshinryuronin!!😁😳


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 6, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Yes. The 'pyramids' of the brain are structures that contain cortical and corticobulbal tracts of white matter (white matter = wiring connections). Pioneer anatomists were clear high on crystal meth when they named various brain structures since they look nothing like pyramids to normal people! They were  also hungry and horny too since there are 'olives' and 'mammillary bodies' in the brain too!🙄


I can kind of see a pyramid.  I added the lines.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I can kind of see a pyramid.  I added the lines.
> 
> View attachment 29047


You smoking crystal meth again, Oily Dragon?😉 I _think_ the lateral lumps adjacent to the ‘V’-shaped notch are the said  vertices of the pyramids. One required a vivid imagination to be a pioneer anatomist!


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 6, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> You smoking crystal meth again, Oily Dragon?😉 I _think_ the lateral lumps adjacent to the ‘V’-shaped notch are the said  vertices of the pyramids. One required a vivid imagination to be a pioneer anatomist!


Just excited the sun is finally out.  It's been raining and dismal for 5 straight days here. 

Light is energy.  Pure energy.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Just excited the sun is finally out.  It's been raining and dismal for 5 straight days here.
> 
> Light is energy.  Pure energy.


Same here… I spent the day in Glastonbury in the warm sunshine, watching ‘alternative people’ go about their alternative day (and bought lots of books😐😳).

I must get my light box out as it gets more dismal….


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 6, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> They act like an angler, keeping a bit of tension in the line (intrafusal fibres) so they know where the fish is. Let the fishing line go slack and you have no information on where fishy is located so reel it in, re-establish tension and you get loads of fish-position data back.


Great way to explain how the mechanics of proprioception work.  Thanks.


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