# Opinions please...



## Coker101 (Dec 24, 2013)

I'm trying to decide what I want to train in and I'm not overly familiar with the Chinese arts.  I have trained in a few different things (Judo/jujitsu/Kuk Sool Won)  in my 40 years but it's been about 10 years now...about the time my daughter was born.

Anyway, I'm looking for something with joint locks as well as strikes/kicks...not so interested in a grappling as much.  I'm also interested in real life applications as well as tradition and I'm not looking for some MMA type place.


Anyway, there is a place close by and I was wondering if I could get opinions on it from some of the people who are experienced in the Chinese arts.
  I spoke to the Sifu and he seems like a nice enough guy but not knowing much about the Chinese arts I figured I would ask here.  He tells me that he would take his style for self defense over any other but then everyone feels that way about what they are training in.  Not that he's wrong but I just would not know...

Let me know what you guys think please...thanks. 

http://www.cranewing.com/ 

^ Link


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 24, 2013)

Know nothing about the school but just so you know all Chinese Martial Arts have kicking, punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao in them to varying degrees. Hopefully someone with more insight into this school will be by to give you more information


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## Coker101 (Dec 24, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Know nothing about the school but just so you know all Chinese Martial Arts have kicking, punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao in them to varying degrees. Hopefully someone with more insight into this school will be by to give you more information



Thanks, any red flags from the site?  Or opinions based off of what's posted on his site?


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## clfsean (Dec 24, 2013)

I looked at it. It looks like there's a lot of Kenpo in there. He says he spent time with & teaching at Augusting Fong's in Tuscon. I'd call over & see if he did. Then if Fong says yes & he's ok, then I'd talk to him about taking up Wing Chun. 

The inclusion of the 18 Arhat exercise is silly IMO. That's a personal POV though. 

http://www.cranewing.com/lineage.html


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## J W (Dec 24, 2013)

clfsean said:


> I looked at it. It looks like there's a lot of Kenpo in there. He says he spent time with & teaching at Augusting Fong's in Tuscon. I'd call over & see if he did. Then if Fong says yes & he's ok, then I'd talk to him about taking up Wing Chun.



Based on the bio, it says that he studied Tai Chi under Augustine Fong. It doesn't specifically say he didn't study Wing Chun as well, but I don't see any mention of it, so I would guess that he doesn't teach WC. 

I don't know much about Tai Chi, but based on my limited knowledge I bet it would fit with what you are looking for. I'm sure some of the other guys here can confirm or refute that. If sifu Fong says he's legit for Tai Chi then that might be up your alley.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 24, 2013)

clfsean said:


> I looked at it. It looks like there's a lot of Kenpo in there. He says he spent time with & teaching at Augusting Fong's in Tuscon. I'd call over & see if he did. Then if Fong says yes & he's ok, then I'd talk to him about taking up Wing Chun.
> 
> The inclusion of the 18 Arhat exercise is silly IMO. That's a personal POV though.
> 
> http://www.cranewing.com/lineage.html



But he does not say he learned Wing Chun from Augustine Fong, he says 



> In 1993 Sifu Scott began learning the art of Dit Dar (Bone Setting), Shiatsu/Tui Na massage and Traditional Chinese Medicine under the world renowned Master Augustine Fong, which he continued to study with Sifu Fong for the next 10 years. Master Fong learned these ancient arts under a well-known doctor in Hong Kong, Doctor Wong, who in turn learned the arts from a Daoist monk. Sifu Scott is one of only two people who were lucky enough to have studied exclusively under Master Fong and are now licensed in the state of Arizona as Practitioners of Oriental Medicine.



I cannot tell where he learned "Traditional Yang Style" And Cheng Manching Taiji is an offshoot of Yang style not part of yang style


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## Coker101 (Dec 24, 2013)

This is on his site as well:

"*Augustine Fong - *There's so much I can say about my experiences with Sifu Fong. From him I learned about life, medicine, martial arts, spirituality and so much more. I commonly spent 10 hours or more a week studying Tai Chi and Qi Gung at the Fong's school, that didn't include the numerous hours (6 - 8 hrs a day) I trained and practiced outside of the school._* Sifu Fong taught me Chinese medicine, Tai Chi, Qi Gung, Lion Dance and Siu Lum Gung Fu.*_ I have countless memories with him, his wife and fellow students that I will cherish as long as I live. Sifu Fong is very generous and I'm only one of many students he personally taught, some of his oldest students are still training at his school today."

http://www.cranewing.com/masters/

What exactly is Siu Lum Gung Fu?


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## colemcm (Dec 24, 2013)

I can't say for certain what it is. I do know that Shaolin is sometimes romanized as Sil Lum. So it could be a variant spelling of that.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 24, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> This is on his site as well:
> 
> "*Augustine Fong - *There's so much I can say about my experiences with Sifu Fong. From him I learned about life, medicine, martial arts, spirituality and so much more. I commonly spent 10 hours or more a week studying Tai Chi and Qi Gung at the Fong's school, that didn't include the numerous hours (6 - 8 hrs a day) I trained and practiced outside of the school._* Sifu Fong taught me Chinese medicine, Tai Chi, Qi Gung, Lion Dance and Siu Lum Gung Fu.*_ I have countless memories with him, his wife and fellow students that I will cherish as long as I live. Sifu Fong is very generous and I'm only one of many students he personally taught, some of his oldest students are still training at his school today."
> 
> ...



Yeah, I saw that....Fong is a wing Chun guy, student of  Ho Kam Ming, and I did not think he knew Yang Taijiquan. There is a Fong Student on MT and he would know. But the man I most recently trained Wing Chun with was also a student of Fong and he never mentioned Taijiquan


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## clfsean (Dec 24, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> This is on his site as well:
> 
> "*Augustine Fong - *There's so much I can say about my experiences with Sifu Fong. From him I learned about life, medicine, martial arts, spirituality and so much more. I commonly spent 10 hours or more a week studying Tai Chi and Qi Gung at the Fong's school, that didn't include the numerous hours (6 - 8 hrs a day) I trained and practiced outside of the school._* Sifu Fong taught me Chinese medicine, Tai Chi, Qi Gung, Lion Dance and Siu Lum Gung Fu.*_ I have countless memories with him, his wife and fellow students that I will cherish as long as I live. Sifu Fong is very generous and I'm only one of many students he personally taught, some of his oldest students are still training at his school today."
> 
> ...



Siu Lum Gung Fu is Canto for Shaolin Gong Fu.  But Augustine Fong practices Wing Chun, not anything normally associated as Siu Lum. Normally Siu Lum is more closely associated with Hung Kuen & related arts, unless he's taken to referring to Wing Chun as Siu Lum. I don't see that on his site.


http://www.fongswingchun.com/


And MEA CULPA on dude not learning WC from Fong. I would under normal circumstances make the presumption. I wouldn't expect to go to Chenjiaguo & learn Tan Tui. I'd expect taiji. I wouldn't expect Taiji from a WC school & to be teaching with his name.


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## Coker101 (Dec 24, 2013)

I just want to clarify, I'm in no way attacking his credentials or anything.  It's just that I want to make sure I get the quality training I'm looking for.  I don't know much about kung fu and nothing about him personally so it's hard for me to tell.

I did email the Fong federation asking but have not received anything back yet.


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## clfsean (Dec 24, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> I just want to clarify, I'm in no way attacking his credentials or anything.  It's just that I want to make sure I get the quality training I'm looking for.  I don't know much about kung fu and nothing about him personally so it's hard for me to tell.
> 
> I did email the Fong federation asking but have not received anything back yet.



Nope we haven't assumed this was attacking. This is trying to work it out.


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## Blaze Dragon (Dec 24, 2013)

I would make the suggestion to try out his class. Or any class your interested in. See if you feel like your learning something, take what you've learned in the past and use your judgement. If it feels like a good fit I wouldn't get to wrapped up in the who taught who and what's authentic and what is not. I'm of a strong mind that everyone will water things down in there own way (or should I say alter it, not necessarily make it less). People learn something and make it there own art. It's common. (In my opinion)

It's just gonna be a question of if your getting out of it what you want. Regardless of style. 

So decided what you want out of your training and see if any of the local guys can offer it. Or who at least offers the closest. Not being able to up and move or travel will give you limited options.

As far as how good Chinese martial arts is. It's more a question of how well the person learns and applies it. CMA is a broad umbrella term. People also tend to throw the term around with words like Shaolin, if they even had a teacher once or a teacher of a teach who happened to trip on the steps to the Shaolin temple... remember it's a business and they want you in the door. sometimes you get what you expect. Sometimes you don't. If you can get more details on a schools background and lineage that will help. However that is not required to get good training.

That's my two cents. Take it for what's worth.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 24, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yeah, I saw that....Fong is a wing Chun guy, student of  Ho Kam Ming, and I did not think he knew Yang Taijiquan. There is a Fong Student on MT and he would know. But the man I most recently trained Wing Chun with was also a student of Fong and he never mentioned Taijiquan


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hi Xu Sheng. Sifu Augustine Fong's main art is wing chun from the Ip man- Ho Kam Ming line. he has done wing chun regularly and  daily since 1960.A few days ago Fong sifu was in Macao for part of Ho Kam Ming's birthday celebrations. I don't know other people in this thread.
I don't think I have seen them.
Fong does not have branch schools- his own school for hands on training is in Tucson. He does teach a yang style tai chi class once or twice a week. He is a very talented person and knows a lot about TCMA- and I have seen him do a very good tiger and crane hung gar form in a demonstration.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 25, 2013)

He says this about Augustine Fong:



> I made an early oath when I began learning from him, to not take photos of him or with him out of respect. I possess only one picture that I had personally taken of him and that was when he and a number of other masters lined up for a photo for Inside Kung Fu Magazine. All other photos I have of him were taken by someone else. The photo next to this paragraph is one of only a few photos I have with myself and Sifu Fong in the same picture. I'm in the lion head with my foot touching the drum as Sifu plays for a lion dance that we were performing.



I find this to be a strange statement.  I don't understand how not taking any photos of one's teacher is a reflection of respect.  If one trains with a teacher for many years, it seems reasonable that some pictures might be taken.  Not that there MUST be photos, but I find a deliberate lack of photos unusual.  A willingness to have pictures taken might also be seen as a sign that the teacher accepts the student.  It's easy for a person to claim the teacher as his own, but what is more telling is if the teacher claims the student as his own.  I'm not saying this guy is lying about his relationship with Fong Sifu, but I do find this statement odd.

He mentions the one photo with him under the lion's head and all we can see his his foot, with Fong Sifu playing the drum.  How do we know that's him under the lion's head, when all we can see is his foot?

There does seem to be a bit of a mix-mash of material, if you read thru his curriculum of forms.  Tho it looks like he's primarily hung-gar, not everything comes from the same system, seems he learned a bit of a patchwork in some instances.  I'm not a fan of that kind of approach.

I'm not sure I understand why he includes a section where he talks about all the famous people he happened to rub shoulders with or met very briefly.  

Otherwise, he makes some statements that I can agree with, regarding his approach to training and whatnot, but I find the presentation a bit odd. There seems to be a strange mix of "humbleness" mixed with a very high opinion of himself and his program.  So I dunno.  I'm not sure any of this is a legitimate red flag, but I just find the presentation a bit odd.


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## Coker101 (Dec 25, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies. 

If anyone has watched his videos on his site,  please let me know what you think.  

Don't mean to be a pain but I'm very much about finding someone who has the skill and knowledge to learn from.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 25, 2013)

Watched the taiji videos and I wil ladmit I have seen worse calling themselves teachers/masters/grand masters/sifu

but.....

The Six Harmonies

External Harmonies 
1) The hands harmonize with the feet.
2) The hips harmonize with the shoulders.
3) The elbows harmonize with the knees.

Internal Harmonies  
1) The heart harmonizes with the intention.
2) The intention harmonizes with the Chi.
3) The Chi harmonizes with the movement



Coordination of the External Harmonies
Interior and Exterior are United
Coordination of the Internal Harmonies

He is not thinking about the 6 harmonies


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## punisher73 (Dec 26, 2013)

Here is my concern from looking at the website, it's not clear if he is teaching a kung fu style as he learned it, or if the style is modified from stuff he (or someone else) learned.  There are some other quotes on his site about mixing styles as well.



> Scott's Nam Siu Lum Kuen is built mainly on the principles of Hung's Five Shape Fist or Five Animal Fist (also known as Hung Kuen or Hung Ga / Gar).


]

Looking at his curriculum it seems to be a mix of hung gar and choy lay fut forms.  I seem some hung gar listed in his lineage, but no CLF.  Not sure if that comes in with the "Sil Lum Black Tiger Hung Gar" listed or not.  Also, can't find anything on that style either really other than the "Fu Jow Pai" (Black Tiger) people saying that they are not a part of the true lineage.


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## Coker101 (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks. 

You guys feel free to add anything you like.  Or PM me if you're not comfortable posting your opinion.


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## Vajramusti (Dec 28, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> You guys feel free to add anything you like.  Or PM me if you're not comfortable posting your opinion.


-
--------------------------------------------------------

There is a lot of name dropping and mixing of styles in that  Texas website. I neither endorse or put down the site. Meeting and/or knowing Augustine Fong sifu does not mean 
an endorsement by Fong sifu. Wing chun is Master Fong's main art but he knowledgeable about other TCMAs  as well


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## Coker101 (Dec 30, 2013)

Well my gym is right next to this place so I stopped by again today.  What he told me was that the system is based off of the 5 animals but its mostly tiger and snake...I think that's what he said. Also the wing chun is not called wing chun but its almost the exact same thing and its part of the same kung fu he teaches.

Here is a quote I think that might make it more clear.


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## Coker101 (Dec 30, 2013)

his system consists of both internal and external principles and is one of the most famous gung (kung) fu system in China. Because of great Hung Kuen Masters like Wong Kei Ying (one of the Ten Tigers of Canton, 10 of the best masters in China) and his son Wong Fei Hung (the most famous folk hero in China), the Hung system is highly respected. Hung Ga's Snake & Crane are also considered the mother systems of Wing Chun Kuen


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## Coker101 (Dec 30, 2013)

http://www.wangsmartialarts.com/Html/instructor.htm

Here is the only other option for kung fu that I see.  Doesn't say much other than its northern kung fu.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> his system consists of both internal and external principles and is one of the most famous gung (kung) fu system in China. Because of great Hung Kuen Masters like Wong Kei Ying (one of the Ten Tigers of Canton, 10 of the best masters in China) and his son Wong Fei Hung (the most famous folk hero in China), the Hung system is highly respected. Hung Ga's Snake & Crane are also considered the mother systems of Wing Chun Kuen



hmm...Hung Gar is really famous for Tiger and Crane, I've never really heard much of anything about Snake in connection with it.  I've heard that Fukien White Crane method is, or may be, the mother system of Wing Chun.  Even perusing examples of that system on Youtube, you can see at least some superficial similarities between the two (just make sure you are looking at Fukien White Crane, and not Tibetan White Crane - completely different systems with a similar name).  

It's true that Hung Gar is a famous system here in the US, and it is respected when done by a skilled person.  But that's pretty much the same for any system.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> Well my gym is right next to this place so I stopped by again today.  What he told me was that the system is based off of the 5 animals but its mostly tiger and snake...I think that's what he said. Also the wing chun is not called wing chun but its almost the exact same thing and its part of the same kung fu he teaches.
> 
> *Here is a quote I think that might make it more clear.*



You forgot the quote?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> http://www.wangsmartialarts.com/Html/instructor.htm
> 
> Here is the only other option for kung fu that I see.  Doesn't say much other than its northern kung fu.



hmmm, I couldn't even find where it said it's Northern kung fu.  

A little strange.  They are wearing actual karate belts on their "Chinese" style uniforms.  People can do whatever they want, but it's a bit odd.

His Weapons Training page says they do "Bo" and "nunchaku", which really suggests Okinawan kobudo.  That's an odd combination with Chinese martial arts.  Of course Staff methods exist within Chinese martial arts, but to call it "Bo" suggests Okinawan.  At any rate, it kinda suggests that this stuff is just filler material, included because people think it's cool and want "weapons training".  But the context is all wrong and perhaps his students are ignorant of that fact?  It kinda reminds me of all the junky katana that are sold here in San Francisco's Chinatown.  it's meant for tourists who don't know the difference and lack the education to understand that a Katana is Japanese, but they are sold as souvenirs all over Chinatown.  Kinda odd, when you think about it.  

If a genuine kung fu school is going to include weapons training, then it's usually gonna be the traditional Chinese weaponry: staff, spear, sword, saber (dao), butterfly swords, three-sectional staff, guan do (big knife on a staff), chain whip, etc.  The fact that he is listing a couple of Okinawan kobudo weapons, and NOT Chinese weaponry makes me think the weapons training is really superficial and not up to snuff.  That makes me have doubts about the entire program.  

Go check it out, but it's just striking me as a bit odd.


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## Coker101 (Dec 31, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> You forgot the quote?



My next post was the quote...was posting from my phone and it was not cooperating. 

_*"his system consists of both internal and external principles and is one of the most famous gung (kung) fu system in China. Because of great Hung Kuen Masters like Wong Kei Ying (one of the Ten Tigers of Canton, 10 of the best masters in China) and his son Wong Fei Hung (the most famous folk hero in China), the Hung system is highly respected. Hung Ga's Snake & Crane are also considered the mother systems of Wing Chun Kuen"*_


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## Coker101 (Dec 31, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> hmm...Hung Gar is really famous for Tiger and Crane, I've never really heard much of anything about Snake in connection with it.  I've heard that Fukien White Crane method is, or may be, the mother system of Wing Chun.  Even perusing examples of that system on Youtube, you can see at least some superficial similarities between the two (just make sure you are looking at Fukien White Crane, and not Tibetan White Crane - completely different systems with a similar name).
> 
> It's true that Hung Gar is a famous system here in the US, and it is respected when done by a skilled person.  But that's pretty much the same for any system.



Let me correct myself, yes it was tiger and crane, not snake.   My bad.


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## Coker101 (Dec 31, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> hmmm, I couldn't even find where it said it's Northern kung fu.
> 
> A little strange.  They are wearing actual karate belts on their "Chinese" style uniforms.  People can do whatever they want, but it's a bit odd.
> 
> ...



I wrote the school off for the most part.  Too little info on the site...something just seemed a bit off.


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## blindsage (Jan 2, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Watched the taiji videos and I wil ladmit I have seen worse calling themselves teachers/masters/grand masters/sifu
> 
> but.....
> 
> ...



After watching his videos, he's not bad at all but I very much agree with Xue here.  Also, he seems to have no concern for his knees whatsoever in his form, and his Taiji applications look pretty much identical to his Siu Lum applications, if his Taiji skill was really that good it would not, there would be much more fluidity and a lot less effort.


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## Coker101 (Jan 2, 2014)

Just foundhttp://www.kungfuschool.com/academy.html


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## Coker101 (Jan 2, 2014)

Let me link that place for you guys and tell me what you think please.  Ill go by it and check it out but opinions don't hurt.

http://www.kungfuschool.com/academy.html

It's Glenn Wilson's Kung Fu...as seen here.

http://www.pailum.org/grandmaster-glenn-c-wilson/

I'm not familiar.


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## clfsean (Jan 2, 2014)

For me... in a word... no. Personal opinion only. I'll leave anything else to speak for itself on Youtube.


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## Coker101 (Jan 2, 2014)

lol....thanks.

I had just watched a video right before I saw your post.....looks like another "Great Grandmaster Villari".


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