# Combative training for Women



## actuarialgal (Aug 13, 2008)

I recently went to a self defense seminar for women put on by ITD Systems, and I can't believe how different it was compared to the karate classes I have taken in the past. The instructor called it "combatives Training" as opposed to an actual martial art. I have to say I learned more about street self defense in 4 hours than in a couple years of weekly classes. I'm looking into expanding on this type of training and taking more classes, but ITD is in Buffalo and it is a long drive for me. Does anyone have any info on this or other training of this type in the Syracuse / Utica area?

Thanks!

E


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 13, 2008)

I have no knowledge about what you are asking    how ever may I suggest you drop a post in the meet and greet area and introduce yourself to all.


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## MJS (Aug 13, 2008)

actuarialgal said:


> I recently went to a self defense seminar for women put on by ITD Systems, and I can't believe how different it was compared to the karate classes I have taken in the past. The instructor called it "combatives Training" as opposed to an actual martial art. I have to say I learned more about street self defense in 4 hours than in a couple years of weekly classes. I'm looking into expanding on this type of training and taking more classes, but ITD is in Buffalo and it is a long drive for me. Does anyone have any info on this or other training of this type in the Syracuse / Utica area?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> E


 
Glad to hear that you had a good experience!   IMHO, a womens SD course should focus on just that....short, simple and effective things that can be taught in a short amount of time, that are effective and easy to learn.  Now, this isn't to say that joining a regular martial arts class can't be effective, but there is a difference in the way the material is taught. 

Mike


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 13, 2008)

Glad you had a good time and keep on training!


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## terryl965 (Aug 13, 2008)

Women self defense are done like that but it takes more than a seminar to get profeicent at it. I would keep training and adding seminars into your regular schedule classses.


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## arnisador (Aug 13, 2008)

Is theer Krav Maga near you?


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## Empty Hands (Aug 13, 2008)

Really?  Tell me more about ITD Systems.  Can I receive street deadly skills for 4 easy payments of $59.99 per month?  Is there anything else you would like to sell me?


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 13, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Women self defense are done like that but it takes more than a seminar to get profeicent at it. I would keep training and adding seminars into your regular schedule classses.


 
E,

And that's how I'd do it. Keep your martial arts but also learn realistic SD. Alot of time in TKD classes they can't understand why I will shield up like a boxer or go for their legs (softly.) And in one step sparring I start to move just when the other guy twitches and I don't stop when the technique is 'supposed to stop'.

Most martial arts do nothing to show what the street is like. No instruction on how to act in front of unknown people, no instruction on detecting indicators, no nothing like that.

Both are helpfull if you train right. In fact the martial arts and SD training can be mutually benifitial.

Deaf


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 13, 2008)

C'mon guys, I know we just had some issues regarding the effectiveness of a "new" system, but let's give her a chance to share her experience here.


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## still learning (Aug 13, 2008)

Hello,  Yes martial arts should be "MORE" combative training.  It is not a dancing school or should be long term to be effecient.

Most students want to learn something they can use right away....

There are many systems that forcus on this....search and find something you want!

The police and prison guards and other like them do not have the time for "years" of learning....THEY NEED STUFFS THEY CAN USE NOW!

WHY?   should martial arts be years to learn?   ...most of us can learn to catch a ball or run .....yes it takes lots of training to run far and faster...but you do not need be an olympican to survive an attack or attackers.....MANY things you can do and use right away....

You have learn there is "better ways to learn"    

Better to learn a few things in one class and be able to use it....than study for years and years...only to learn...one can survive with the proper few things to survive!

  Driving didn't take years to learn....swimming...running...and hitting...and most of us can learn to play basketball,football,soccer,....and enjoy ourselfs......to become a professioal?  ...well that takes years and talent..


Aloha,  "over 100 golfer"   ?  UM    ...rather be fishing!


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## actuarialgal (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks for all of your support! Well, most everyone, anyway. I will look to see if there is any Krav Maga (sp?) in my area. I did talk with a guy who trains in Systema, but I'm not sure if I have the time for the commitment he feels it would require. He seems to support more traditional class time than condensed training seminars, which I understand, but with everything going on 2 nights a week would be tough. 

Other than slow motion with a partner that understand reflexive reaction, how does one train in combatives, considering you really shouldn't practice gouging out eyes and crushing tracheas at full speed? I'm sure red suits and cups help for some of the stuff, but I'm afraid of hurting my training partners (or the other way around!) going full speed! 

Take care and thanks for the help!


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 23, 2008)

actuarialgal said:


> Thanks for all of your support! Well, most everyone, anyway. I will look to see if there is any Krav Maga (sp?) in my area. I did talk with a guy who trains in Systema, but I'm not sure if I have the time for the commitment he feels it would require. He seems to support more traditional class time than condensed training seminars, which I understand, but with everything going on 2 nights a week would be tough.
> 
> Other than slow motion with a partner that understand reflexive reaction, how does one train in combatives, considering you really shouldn't practice gouging out eyes and crushing tracheas at full speed? I'm sure red suits and cups help for some of the stuff, but I'm afraid of hurting my training partners (or the other way around!) going full speed!
> 
> Take care and thanks for the help!


 There's really no substitute for gearing up and sparring......as you note, however, the risk of hard-training is injury.....but the rewards when properly done far outweight the risks.

It's why boxers, muay thai practioners, judokas and BJJ practioners are able to successfully pull of their techniques in the street......because they train them full power and full speed.  Boxers and Muay Thai practioners are conditioned by their sport in hitting and getting hit and grapplers apply their techniques in training in the same manner they'd be applied for real.....the only difference is that in training their partner taps before the joint gets dislocated.

The question is 'How prepared do you feel you need to be'......if the answer is very prepared, then eventually you'll have to train your techniques with hard-sparring.....yes, you can't necessarily do an eye-gouge full speed during sparring, but you CAN learn to move and get accustomed to impact, bodies smacking together, the jarring of physical combat that most people find disturbing the first few times they experience.

When you do spar try to get sparring partners of different shapes and sizes.....fighting someone your size is far different than fighting someone significantly larger.


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## girlbug2 (Aug 23, 2008)

I'll second Arnisador, Krav Maga is all about combatives. If that's what you want to learn, KM is a very effective system.

You do not have to go several times a week, but may I advise, if you wish to improve your skills and retain what you learn, please do not let yourself go less than 2 times a week. Myself, I am in there 4 or 5 times a week but that's for the pleasure of practicing it as much as anything.

My school does regularly offer special seminars on the weekends as well as a Women's Fight Club on Saturdays and Thursdays. The Km schools in your area may offer something similar.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> I'll second Arnisador, Krav Maga is all about combatives. If that's what you want to learn, KM is a very effective system.
> 
> You do not have to go several times a week, but may I advise, if you wish to improve your skills and retain what you learn, please do not let yourself go less than 2 times a week. Myself, I am in there 4 or 5 times a week but that's for the pleasure of practicing it as much as anything.
> 
> My school does regularly offer special seminars on the weekends as well as a Women's Fight Club on Saturdays and Thursdays. The Km schools in your area may offer something similar.


 

Women's Fight Club? I love the sound of that! if only I wasn't so far away!


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## KenpoTex (Aug 23, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> The question is 'How prepared do you feel you need to be'......if the answer is very prepared, then eventually you'll have to train your techniques with hard-sparring.....


 
...and one's answer is anything but "very prepared," he/she needs to do some serious work on his/her mindset.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 26, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> ...and one's answer is anything but "very prepared," he/she needs to do some serious work on his/her mindset.


 Most definitely!


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2008)

I see some of you are posting somethings that are not constructive at all...   this was a thread to bring to light some training she received that increased her effectiveness 100%....  now we must continue her on that positive path rather than kicking up dust or steering her in a completely differnt direction....  she is not marketing, she didnt even leave a website or contact info.....   she also does not need to strap on pads and spar with people or get familiar with any more "combat sports" ....  she needs to continue to learn how to effectively target her opposition and cause traumatic effects in them.... 
 she can no longer play by the rules because she must be bigger and stronger and faster or she loses....  this is far from the truth....   the one who is injured repeatedly is the one who loses and size and strenght have nothing to do with causing injury....


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## Empty Hands (Aug 27, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> She is not marketing,



I doubt that.



BLACK LION said:


> she also does not need to strap on pads and spar with people or get familiar with any more "combat sports"



********.  Anyone who claims you can be an effective martial artist without sparring is a charlatan.  And most likely "marketing" something.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 27, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> ********.  Anyone who claims you can be an effective martial artist without sparring is a charlatan.  And most likely "marketing" something.


 +1

It's like claiming you can gain the skills of a professional football player simply by practicing the runs, studying the plays and NEVER hitting or being hit by someone else......it's BOGUS!



> "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth!" -Mike Tyson



Folks who think fighting.....REAL fighting is like ballet are in for a RUDE awakening when the moment arrives.......it's MORE akin to rugby or football, with bodies slamming in to the each other, cussing, sweating, bleeding, screaming!

Telling a woman she can go through the motions, without having to apply it at full speed, are simply selling her a bill of goods that will fail when the moment arrives.  You can only prepare for fighting by FIGHTING!


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2008)

how can i or anyone don a padded ensemble, openly spar with a  partner and learn to effectively target and traumatize the human anatomy....its backpeddling....    
especially a woman with a distinct size and strength disadvantage....     women need to be trained that any confrontation or opposition by a male adversary should be deemed life threatening.... so why should she be trained to try to out move and out muscle someone with an obvious advantage....   sparring with pads is useful for combat sports alone....  not a violent confrontation    

they must learn to injure.... not to play patty cake  



 in fact... i am training under a false sense of security and can in no way guage the effectiveness or in-effectiveness of my striking....  it becomes a competition and falls under certain rules( have to be bigger-stronger-faster).... a person cant pick thier opponent and make sure they match up perfectly.... so why train that way....      

when the shtf you will do what you train.... and if you are used to kicking bags and sparring with pads then you are sol....  the memory of my good friend shervin tehranchi says so....  he was an excellent martial artisit and had several black belts.... he trained muay thai, juijitsu and wing chuna s well....        he was an instructor to many and revered as the fighter to beat....     he was stabbed to death after preventing his brother from being robbed....   he actually squared up, fought 5 gangsters and beat them....   until the knife came out and went int his neck and heart ..... 

this is the severity and the reason why training witht he right principles is paramount.....     if combat sports is your thing then yes you are right..... 

but if martialism or combat alone is what one is preparing for then sparring with pads could not be farther from the truth


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## Empty Hands (Aug 27, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> ...  sparring with pads is useful for combat sports alone....  not a violent confrontation



Yes, clearly, punching holes in the air will be _so _much more effective.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2008)

*"you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink"*

i dont think she is looking to become a professional fighter.... she is looking to not become the victim.... you are comparing competitive sports with violence and combat.....   

the title of this thread is "combative training for women" .... and all your responses are "competitive training for women" ....   

you learn by moving slow...not by suiting up and running full force into something.... violence is not the chaos you see on t.v. or in the studio.... they make it seem that way becuase they are not smoothly and effectively targeting thier opponent... they are just punching and kicking whatever spot is open....you see this chaos all the time in untrained victims or assailants....  if you effectively target your opponent you control thier movemnts and you control the outcome....there is no chaos if you are in control... frantically scrambling to get a punch or kick in on someone who is faster or stronger is chaotic....deuling is chaotic...  violence is deliberate.... there is no chaos in the act itself

all that is being brought up is purely social... violence is not...  

a crack crazed junkie is not going to thai kick you or throw a roundhouse or grab you and try to put you in an arm bar.... they are going to club you in the head, shoot you in the face or stab you to death....  why? becuase they want something and they know how to get it...  

you should too... 

by the  way.... when was the last time you saw a crackhead, meth addict, rapist or murderer sparring or training....  ????  probably never... why is that???   becuase they know what most refuse to pay atention to...       VIOLENCE


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Yes, clearly, punching holes in the air will be _so _much more effective.


 
address my points....no tapdancing....   

punching and kicking is purely elastic....  and not effective...especially against someone bigger, stronger or faster....    why would a woman try to punch a crackhead man in the face or kick him in the leg ....no matter how perful her punches and kicks are, she will not be effective in shutting off his brain....   I have been hitting pads for decades and and it has done nothing for me but confirm that i would be a good competitor....


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 27, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> how can i or anyone don a padded ensemble, openly spar with a  partner and learn to effectively target and traumatize the human anatomy....its backpeddling....
> especially a woman with a distinct size and strength disadvantage....     women need to be trained that any confrontation or opposition by a male adversary should be deemed life threatening.... so why should she be trained to try to out move and out muscle someone with an obvious advantage....   sparring with pads is useful for combat sports alone....  not a violent confrontation
> 
> they must learn to injure.... not to play patty cake
> ...



You miss the point....you can claim you're training in 'ultra deadly secret instant kill' techniques all you want......but if you have never been PUNCHED IN THE FACE.......when you do all that BS will fly right out the window......THAT is what sparring is for.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 27, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Yes, clearly, punching holes in the air will be _so _much more effective.


 Yep!  If there's no impact, it's just DANCING!


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 27, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> *"you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink"*
> 
> i dont think she is looking to become a professional fighter.... she is looking to not become the victim.... you are comparing competitive sports with violence and combat.....
> 
> ...


 You inserted the words 'competative sport'......unless you are actually arguing that FIGHTING, life and death FIGHTING is not an impact activity (which would be laughable) then you've lost this argument.

And a CRACKHEAD will walk up and PUNCH YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE!  If you've never been hit, guess what happens then? 

You've wandered in to a false dichotomy.......'Combat Sport' vs. RBSD..........there is a difference between Combat Sports and the street.......but that difference doesn't involve sparring and training to get hit, training for impact.  There's a reason decent boxers in a street fight almost always knock out other people in street fight.......it's because they have hit and been hit hundreds and hundreds of times.  Simply punching one isn't going to cause his mind to blank like it does the average person who has never been hit.

The problem with some RBSD adherents isn't the techniques taught........it's the presumption that with those techniques you'll NEVER have to weather a beating in order to fight back.......and that's ludicrous.  If you get ambushed and punched in the mouth, and it's the first time you've ever been hit in the face, you're behind the power curve.  If you've been hit many times in the face, it's no big deal and you recover much more quickly.  

You inoculate your mind and body to violence by hard sparring.......it's the same way we inoculate our immune system to certain diseases.......by giving it a dose of it so that it knows what it is when the real thing comes.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 27, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> address my points....no tapdancing....
> 
> punching and kicking is purely elastic....  and not effective...especially against someone bigger, stronger or faster....    why would a woman try to punch a crackhead man in the face or kick him in the leg ....no matter how perful her punches and kicks are, she will not be effective in shutting off his brain....   I have been hitting pads for decades and and it has done nothing for me but confirm that i would be a good competitor....


 A crackhead WILL punch her in the face......you're suggesting she learn to dance as a SOLUTION to fighting......when in reality fight, combat, whatever the hell you want to call it......is a HIGH IMPACT activity.  

You can call it boxing, you can call it RBSD, you can give it whatever name you want.......it's STILL about two (or more) human beings trying to damage and/or kill each other, it's about bodies slamming together, it's about blood and guts and sweat and anger and violence.

All those 'solutions' to fighting are fine so long as you don't miss the point......and saying you don't need to actually get punched in the face to learn how to fight is missing that point.


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## jks9199 (Aug 28, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> *"you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink"*
> 
> i dont think she is looking to become a professional fighter.... she is looking to not become the victim.... you are comparing competitive sports with violence and combat.....
> 
> ...



A real fight is not pretty.  It doesn't go by the rules.  It's just that simple.  No matter how well trained or skilled you are -- things don't go the same way under pressure.  Even the best trained and most prepared will face the effects of the adrenal dump and the physiological and psychological impact of a true fight.  Stress inoculation reduces -- but doesn't eliminate this.

Sparring is ONE method of practicing learned techniques UNDER PRESSURE.  It's not the only way -- but you must come face to face with being hit and hitting back under pressure if you really want to be prepared for an attack.  See, the simple truth is that the ogre that's attacking you is almost certainly going to work from 2 advantages:  They're already ACTING, not reacting, and they're almost certainly going to seek and use surprise.

Allow me to refer you to someone who's said it much better than I; read Rory Miller's book *Meditations On Violence.*  I might suggest special attention to the phrase "monkey dance."  It's one of the best descriptive phrases I've ever seen -- and it makes it much easier to understand what real violence is.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> A real fight is not pretty.  It doesn't go by the rules.  It's just that simple.  No matter how well trained or skilled you are -- things don't go the same way under pressure.  Even the best trained and most prepared will face the effects of the adrenal dump and the physiological and psychological impact of a true fight.  Stress inoculation reduces -- but doesn't eliminate this.
> 
> Sparring is ONE method of practicing learned techniques UNDER PRESSURE.  It's not the only way -- but you must come face to face with being hit and hitting back under pressure if you really want to be prepared for an attack.  See, the simple truth is that the ogre that's attacking you is almost certainly going to work from 2 advantages:  They're already ACTING, not reacting, and they're almost certainly going to seek and use surprise.
> 
> Allow me to refer you to someone who's said it much better than I; read Rory Miller's book *Meditations On Violence.*  I might suggest special attention to the phrase "monkey dance."  It's one of the best descriptive phrases I've ever seen -- and it makes it much easier to understand what real violence is.



No matter what euphemisms we use to avoid admitting the reality of it....call fighting 'resistance' or 'self-defense' or 'Super ninja self-protection' it's still fighting.......and fighting is still just two (or more) chimpanzees trying to bash each others brains in.


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## jks9199 (Aug 28, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> No matter what euphemisms we use to avoid admitting the reality of it....call fighting 'resistance' or 'self-defense' or 'Super ninja self-protection' it's still fighting.......and fighting is still just two (or more) chimpanzees trying to bash each others brains in.


That's a great point, but it's not how Miller is using the phrase.

He distinguishes between many fight which are really over status or to impress someone and the violent attack of a predator by calling the former a "monkey dance."  The truth is that in the monkey dance, the real goal IS NOT to do serious harm; it's just to get recognition of status.  Those who don't question their status don't participate in the monkey dance -- whether they see themselves above or below the status of the challenger.  A predatory attack, on the other hand, is just that -- it's an attack focused on obtaining something from the prey, just like a tiger attacking an antelope.


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## Empty Hands (Aug 28, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> You've wandered in to a false dichotomy.......'Combat Sport' vs. RBSD.



Except the RBSD guys usually spar!


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## zen4me (Aug 28, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> you learn by moving slow...not by suiting up and running full force into something.... violence is not the chaos you see on t.v. or in the studio.... they make it seem that way becuase they are not smoothly and effectively targeting thier opponent... they are just punching and kicking whatever spot is open....you see this chaos all the time in untrained victims or assailants....  if you effectively target your opponent you control thier movemnts and you control the outcome....there is no chaos if you are in control... frantically scrambling to get a punch or kick in on someone who is faster or stronger is chaotic....deuling is chaotic...  violence is deliberate.... there is no chaos in the act itself



Last time I checked, a street fight was the least choreographed thing in the world - a far, far cry from the junk they show on tv or in movies. The smooth and effective targeting of "their" opponent isn't going to work in the street when you have multiple attackers that are *NOT* waiting politely for their turn at beating the snot out of you. 

A person may be able to effectively target and control a single opponent, but what happens when 3 of his buddies show up and 2 of them have knives? That targeting and control go out the window as you try to avoid 2 knives and 8 sets of arms/legs trying to cut, slash, and smash their way through you.

Violence is very often deliberate and may not appear chaotic to the perp but for the the victim it is total chaos. Learning to deal with the shock to your system when you're hit and learning to not just hit back, but hit back as hard and as fast as you can are vital. The best way to learn that is through sparring in a "safe" environment.

- Kelly


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## kwaichang (Aug 28, 2008)

All I can add is, self-defense for women is totally different than normal martial arts classes.  I know, I taught them for a few years.

Good hunting and hope you find something nearer to your home.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 28, 2008)

violence is not chaos... its one person injuring another.... it is simple
im not interestead in fight variables...  im interested in injuries  

its not about technique or disciplines or various types of fighting(knife,stick,ground,gun,empty hand etc)....one needs to be taught how to effectively deal with anyone regardless of the technique or the tool....by repeatedly injuring them
  violence is not comprised of a bunch of disciplines or techniques.... 
a predator does not go to the studio to work on his ambush technique so he can rape and kill someone.... he uses violence in its simplest form to his advantage....he acts first and continues until satisfied.... 
you being the one causing the injuries to the other person is going to ensure you go home... 
in order to inflict injuries you must target...
you must have and understanding of where the targets are and how to get to them...it is a skill acquired by going slow and developing the bodily coordination required to apply your body parts in motion...  we all know real fights are fast so why go slow...well because targeting is a skill that takes practice, accepting no errors and speed will just mess it all up...fast practice hinders targeting ....* "SLOW IS SMOOTH AND SMOOTH IS FAST"*
you can strike as hard as fast as you can but if you have no targeting skill you are ineffecticve....if you go fast without the skill of targeting to cause injury you may beat them but you wont break them...

plain and simple they need to be taught violence is the answer and now is the time.... injury is the key to surviving and the other guy not... repeatable reliable injury is the model of success in a violent confrontation....   

survival is a choice... and as long as one can move and think they have a choice.... survival is forging ones reality with the belief that it can be done... its not about going home to loved ones or getting out alive its about forging the outcome through reliable injuries to the other person or persons...


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## Empty Hands (Aug 28, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> violence is not chaos



Have you ever actually experienced violence?


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Except the RBSD guys usually spar!


 The REAL ones do......


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> That's a great point, but it's not how Miller is using the phrase.
> 
> He distinguishes between many fight which are really over status or to impress someone and the violent attack of a predator by calling the former a "monkey dance."  The truth is that in the monkey dance, the real goal IS NOT to do serious harm; it's just to get recognition of status.  Those who don't question their status don't participate in the monkey dance -- whether they see themselves above or below the status of the challenger.  A predatory attack, on the other hand, is just that -- it's an attack focused on obtaining something from the prey, just like a tiger attacking an antelope.


 Predatory versus Defensive aggression (in his case ego defense or young male hierarchical combat).

Fight, Flight, Posture and Submit.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 28, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> violence is not chaos... its one person injuring another.... it is simple
> im not interestead in fight variables...  im interested in injuries
> 
> its not about technique or disciplines or various types of fighting(knife,stick,ground,gun,empty hand etc)....one needs to be taught how to effectively deal with anyone regardless of the technique or the tool....by repeatedly injuring them
> ...


 Violence IS CHAOS!

The presumption being that the person your teaching will ALWAYS be on the attack and will not have to weather pain and punishment in the process......or I should say assumption.

Violence IS the answer......but what you're advocating is a dance masquerading as violence.  The only way to teach violence is THROUGH violence.....simulated violence as realistic as possible, with a resistant opponent hurting back!  

You miss the point by thinking i'm talking about technique.......'and as long as one can move and think they have a choice'.......which is EXACTLY my point.......how do you teach someone to keep THINKING under violent assault without putting them under violent assault?  The military understands this, the police understand this, but apparently some folks teaching women's self-defense think they can teach the women some responses, TELL them to be 'Be...aggressive...Be...Be....Aggressive' and that they'll get it in the moment of truth.  You have to TRAIN the mind to deal with violence by training the mind THROUGH violence!


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 28, 2008)

Guys,

I'm pretty decent in the ring. But I can tell you unless the other guy is a newbie who is scare of me (and yes that black belt does scare new people in a dojo) that it's alot harder to nail someone who does not want to be nailed and wants to pay you back.

I look real good against those who are intimidated by either uniform or flashy technique. I can get away with alot (and I do!)

But, when I go against others who are pretty good it becomes a real messy afair. Not something like Van Damne's shows at all. And before someone says to 'forget fear and think of yourself as being dead', well that sounds good but comes up short most of the time.

I've never been in a perfect fight, street or dojo against people who can fight to. *I would not say complete chaos*, but there is alot of doubt sometimes!

My advice is to always have a plan 'B' in any SD situation. If the technique does not work perfect, have a fast alternative 'ending' so as to not stop and let the other guy get his OODA reset. This is really what adapting and improvising is all about.

And train hard to get your techniques so ingrained they are reflexes and you don't have to (or want to) think about them.

Deaf


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## BLACK LION (Sep 2, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Have you ever actually experienced violence?


  I have my friend... fortunately I am here to share... I have good friends that are not...   
I am around potential violence everyday.... I live and grew up in southern california since the 80s and 90s...they do not call it the wild west becuase of the movies....  people get shot here for wearing a hat and less....  

the act of violence itself is not chaotic....   what seems chaotic is the social decline that almost always preceedes the act itself ....   

I am not here to amuse you with a resume of violent encounters... ive faced the gun...ive sfaced the blade and ive faced multiple attackers...  I have made mistakes that cost me and I have made actions that spared me....  I am here because I am willing to know and apply... I am here becuase I am unreasonable.... I am here becuase action is simple...and the more one simplifies it the easier it is....   violence is not chaos to me becuase i have habituated it and I know there is nothing chaotic about deliberate injury.... it is precise and effective... there is no confusion in committing a violent act....     social breakdown is where you find your chaos my friend....  you dont have to believe me.... life will answer your questions for you


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## BLACK LION (Sep 2, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Violence IS CHAOS!
> 
> The presumption being that the person your teaching will ALWAYS be on the attack and will not have to weather pain and punishment in the process......or I should say assumption.
> 
> ...


\

Actually sarge I agree with pretty much all your posts...and have thanked you in such
I think we may be mis-understanding each other...   
your post above is correct...and I agree with it... 
what I did not agree with initially is suiting up in pads becuase from my experience it does not give you the full effect as far as targeting weak spots.... if they are padded they wont be as sensitive to contact so they may not understand how and why the damage was done...    to me there is a simulated effect that is missing becuase I am not getting the effects that are being caused becuase the opposition is armored.... we agree on the manner it must be presented... so we agree we just have different tastes.... 

and second we seem to disagree that violence is or is not "chaos"

violence in and of itself should not be confusing or disorderly... it is pure and unadulterated...it is deliberate and determined...it is purposeful and meaningful physical force with the intention to inflict injury or damage.... 
there is nothing confusing to me about that, infact it is quite clear.  
what is chaos to me... is the social deterioration that preceded the act itself and/or the social deterioration that is accompanied after that act itself.....


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## shihansmurf (Sep 3, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> she can no longer play by the rules because she must be bigger and stronger and faster or she loses.... this is far from the truth.... the one who is injured repeatedly is the one who loses and size and strenght have nothing to do with causing injury....


 
This is a self-refuting statement.Either size and strength play no role in the outcome of a fight, a position that is asanine to a degree that I don't even have words to describe, or they do play a role. Size and strength are key factors in developing hitting power.Larger and stronger fighters have a distinct advantage over opponents that are smaller and weaker.This is a truth that is so self-evident that I feel a bit silly writing it down.Now there are ways to help mitigate the size/strength difference but the FACT remains that it is still there.

Fantasy combat techniques, air punching, macho catch phrases, and a lack of pressure testing of techniques do not produce a good fighter.It doesn't even produce a poor fighter. The above described training methodology produces martial larpers that don't actually know how to fight. It is a skillset that doesn't produce practical self-defense ability.

This is another self-evident truth: You become skilled at what you practice. If you practice fighting you will get better at fighting. If you practice  dance masquerading as fighting(Great phrase sgtmac_46) then you will be good at dance-fighting.Which if your'e a memeber of either the Jets or the Sharks is acceptable but for the rest of us in reality.......

Mark


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## kwaichang (Sep 3, 2008)

shihansmurf said:


> If you practice dance then you will be good at dance-......Which if your'e a memeber of either the Jets or the Sharks is acceptable but for the rest of us in reality......
> Mark


 
I practiced dance for years and still can barely do a waltz; plus I'm WASP so would never make it as a SHARK.:angel:


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## BLACK LION (Sep 3, 2008)

what are you arguing with me about???  you respond to me as if i am retarded.....  

the mind is the most powerful weapon in the universe... it starts and ends here... if your mind is conditiond by rules and codes you will act as such... and you will be a victim....mentally one must have no boundaries...

women must be trained to understand and use violence as a tool.... it is thier only advantage and the only way to ensure they at least have a chance.... the mindset that faster and stronger and bigger is better must be erradicated so that all that is present in opposition is a heaping mound of flesh and bone that must be injured.... they do not see any social structure evident only targets to accquire....  it starts and ends in the mind....  if they feel inferior mentally and physically they will behave as a victim does... and most times submit or succumb...  if they know and understand human/anatomical weakness coupled with how to strike those areas using the weight of thier body then they can have a concrete self assurance becuase they know what it takes and how easy it is.... they no longer feel overpowered.... they can rely on themselves to survive... 



this is combatives for women.... not martial arts training  
how much time do you plan on spending training them to gain power and speed etc?????  what if after the first class they get raped on the way to the car???? all you did that night was work on punching and coordination maybe have em hit the bag or spar...  they probably leave feeling energized and empowered until bubba whos fresh out of the clink comes up and throws her into the back of his van.....   where is your martial arts...???  its on its way to a remote location to be raped and murdered...


so what you put pads on and went full bore....  does she even know what she is hhitting or what effect it may have.... so what you taught her how to block ,hopefully the guy is not twice her weight or shes broke...so what you taught her to disarm someone, you just doomed her to concentrate on the tool as the threat and not the attackers mind.... so what you put pads on and went all out, you successfully taught her to run around in a frantic heap in search for an end to the "chaos".... all of that is just dancing to me...  or beating around the bush...   

first empower the mind... then target the anatomical weaknesses all humans have....  you are there at that moment in time to injure that person... not to run through your treasure trove of techniques or exercise your social prowess.... you are there to use violence as a survival tool first and last....  no more and no less  


wing chun is an elderly examply of combatives for women....  


it just does not seem to come out as easy as I would like... it almost seems like a bunch of rambling...

bottom line... 

combatives for women=  understanding and accquiring targets with the purpose of injury wich leads to consistent and effective violence as a survival tool....



oh....one more question 
ever had a kid come and jump on your pelvis with both knees.... no one teaches them to do that but it can knock the wind out of the largest of men or worse ....  imagine if they did that on chester the molesters neck???  there is no technique in that... just simple physics   


violence is easy...
children do it all the time without the knowledge of it being violence....once a 10 year old boy grabbed my arm and spun himself like a top taking my arm with him... If I was just an average joe, it would have broken in a couple of places but i caught it in time and was able to twist out of it before my arm reached its pathological limit...  this child has no technique or training but his idea of fun almost sent me to the e.r.
if it is that easy w/o training... imagine its effectiveness when that is all that is trained


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## shihansmurf (Sep 3, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> what are you arguing with me about???  you respond to me as if i am retarded.....



I touch a nerve? I am not inferring that you are retarded. You made a self-refuting statement in a debate on a martial arts forum.I called you on that and then I went on to make statements supporting my position and demonstrating the errors in the position that you are advocating. I did do in a direct manner.There is nothing in my posts that is intended as a personal attack nor am I speaking down to you. Debate and sharing viewpoints is the purpose of martial arts forums.Now I'm going to address the rest of the points that you have raised in the remainder of this post. Note that I am addressing your post and not making personal attacks on you.



> the mind is the most powerful weapon in the universe... it starts and ends here... if your mind is conditiond by rules and codes you will act as such... and you will be a victim....mentally one must have no boundaries...



This is interesting. Everyone's mind is conditioned by rules and codes. We all act in accordance with that programing. We can't all be victims, therefore I would think that it is more a matter of what sort of conditioning a given fighters mind has undergone.I, and most other soldiers, have have mental boundaries yet we are able to function just fine under conditions where we are faced with serious levels of violence.If we must not have boundaries to survive a violent encounter, how is it that there are so many of us walking around with combat patches?Is it because we are conditioned different mentally?Is it because we have a skill set, both armed and unarmed that we have tested in training, under realistic  conditions, against resisting opponents? If either of the preceding answers are correct then shouldn't we apply those lessons learned to the benefit of any student that we train? If not, should we instead trust our safety and the safety of our students to purely theoretical knowledge?



> the mindset that faster and stronger and bigger is better must be erradicated so that all that is present in opposition is a heaping mound of flesh and bone that must be injured



Nice use of hyperbole to support an indefensible position.
Stronger,faster, and bigger is better.It is why actual martial artist and professional fighter train to increase their speed,strength, mass, and other physical factor that make a fighter more effective.

If two fighter are of equal skill, do you think that the fighter that is more physically fit, stronger, and better conditioned won't have a tremendous(nearly insurmountable even) advantage over the fighter that isn't?Reliance on dirty tricks in a fight are a poor substitute for actually being able to fight.On a similar note, a well conditioned and fit fighter can throw the dreaded eye-gouge too. The well conditioned fighter can also target the groin, throat, knee, ear clap, and EVERY SINGLE DIRTY TRICK that any non-conditioned fighter can, and will in point of fact be better at it than a fighter who isn't fit.


Size, strength, and speed matter. Those factor matter so much, in fact, that athletes form other contact sports like football, and hockey can usually hold their own in a street fight against most martial arts black belts.The reason that most boxers and wrestlers fare better in street altercations that the typical black belt is due to the methodology of their training and the focus on building all those physical attributes in particular.



> how much time do you plan on spending training them to gain power and speed etc????? what if after the first class they get raped on the way to the car???? all you did that night was work on punching and coordination maybe have em hit the bag or spar... they probably leave feeling energized and empowered until bubba whos fresh out of the clink comes up and throws her into the back of his van..... where is your martial arts...??? its on its way to a remote location to be raped and murdered...



What if after the first class she doesn't get randomly attacked in the parking lot? What if she goes and gets ice cream and reads a nice novel after she gets home? What if she earns a degree in French literature, marries a nice guy, has a couple of kids, a rewarding career, and retires in the south of France.Your scenario is a lot less likely. The overwhelming majority of rapes are acquaintance rapes and the variable in the scenarion would be much different.None the less. lets use the worst case scenario instead of the most realistic one.

What if after the first class, when Bubba grabbed her she hit him with a straight right to the bridge of the nose? While he is reacting to the hit she runs away and calls the police? What if, while feeling all empowered as opposed to being spoon fed the idea that she will be a victim, she deters her assailant with she elects to fight back and does so successfully thanks to actually receiving realistic training that included a resistant training partner so she could learn what movements work for her?

We can play the what if game ad nauseum. Producing  a confident, physically fit, well-trained martial artist will always be the smarter training methodology.You may not agree, such is your option.



> so what you put pads on and went full bore.... does she even know what she is hhitting or what effect it may have.... so what you taught her how to block ,hopefully the guy is not twice her weight or shes broke...so what you taught her to disarm someone, you just doomed her to concentrate on the tool as the threat and not the attackers mind.... so what you put pads on and went all out, you successfully taught her to run around in a frantic heap in search for an end to the "chaos".... all of that is just dancing to me... or beating around the bush...



I am forced to wonder what experience you have training in a heavy contact enviornment."Full bore" contact doesn't start from day one.The student begins at light contact and works their way up as they progress in ability and experience.As to this hypothetical she, and her not knowing what she is hitting I am always careful to point out to her that the target is the other person, specifically the one trying to hit her.I have found that in an alive training enviornment that targeting issues are a bit self-evident.

As to your statement of "so what you taught her how to block ,hopefully the guy is not twice her weight or shes broke" I must say I am indeed confused.If, as you say, size and strength do not matter, then why the concern about her safety in training?Does putting on the pads and participating in sparring make her brittle?



> all of that is just dancing to me... or beating around the bush



How is training to actually fight by doing so beating around the bush if the goal of training is to be good at self-defense?I would think that quite the opposite is true. By getting in there and putting forth effort to become a good fighter any martial artist is taking the most direct route to skill at fighting.



> first empower the mind... then target the anatomical weaknesses all humans have.... you are there at that moment in time to injure that person... not to run through your treasure trove of techniques or exercise your social prowess.... you are there to use violence as a survival tool first and last.... no more and no less



The most effective tools to use in a fight are simple, efficient, techniques, that have been internalized to a degree that their use is second nature. You don't get that level of internalization in a week long self defense seminar.It comes through repetitions.Even then, the effectiveness of those techs will be limited by the physical attributes of the person executing those movements. There is no shortcut, not death touch, no secret"punch them here and the bad guy will go away" button.There is only solid technique, performed by a physically capable fighter.



> it just does not seem to come out as easy as I would like... it almost seems like a bunch of rambling...



Happens to us all.The rambling, I mean. I posted a few weeks ago whilst taking a bunch of cold medicine.Not a great moment for lucidity.



> bottom line...
> 
> combatives for women= understanding and accquiring targets with the purpose of injury wich leads to consistent and effective violence as a survival tool....



Way bottom line, or at least a corollary thereof:the only way that the understanding and acquiring of targets to do all that great violence has any effect is when that knowledge is put into practice by a person that can physically perform those techniques and can do so with speed and power.Otherwise all that that mindset will produce is a person that knows about fighting but can't actually fight.



> violence is easy...


being good at it, not so much.



> once a 10 year old boy grabbed my arm and spun himself like a top taking my arm with him... If I was just an average joe, it would have broken in a couple of places but i caught it in time and was able to twist out of it before my arm reached its pathological limit.



What in your training allowed you to respond quickly enough to avoid injury?
1.Your knowledge of what to do.
2.Your physical conditioning that allowed you to put that knowledge into practice?
3. A combination of the two factors.

I tend to think three.



> if it is that easy w/o training... imagine its effectiveness when that is all that is trained


This statement demonstrated the truth of my argument. Training makes a person better at performing the skill that is being trained.It does so by internalizing the acquired skills and building the physical attributes that govern their performance.

One last thing.
I am enjoying our discussions. If I have offended you then I apologize for the offense but not the content of my position.

I look forward to your reply
Mark


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## BLACK LION (Sep 4, 2008)

I am slightly confused or there seems to be some confusion... so maybe I can clear my position up

_"Training makes a person better at performing the skill that is being trained."_ *you are correct* 

_"This is interesting. Everyone's mind is conditioned by rules and codes. We all act in accordance with that programing."_ *correct ....socially we do..... but violence has no rules or codes, so must you undo some things in order to grasp a the predatory mindset??? to some its natural or instinctual  to others its gastly and horrible and then there are those in between... it seems that first the "social curtain" must come down then one can begin to understand, then one can begin to  become a fighter or combatant...  once again, I am reffering to "martial combatives" not combat sports and martial arts not that these types of training are not good but ultimatelty still set on a social stage in which neither has the intention to injure or kill the other person....it has definatley helped me develop my body weapons but it also taught me allot of elastic movements that took all the body weight out of my strikes...I in-turn stopped triaining mma at the gym and went back to combatives only... I am a firm believer in you do what you train....  anyway  i am reffering to  *
* training the mind to be unreasonable and without rules or boundaries when in combat...  soldiers are not taught to throw themselves on grenades yet when in battle they do it anyway... this is a mind without limits... in that moment being completely without rules.... they dont take 20 years or even 2 years to train a soldier or operator to fight.... and no you cant learn in a weekend seminar(dont bother) but with the acceptance that voilence is not social and accquiring the mindset to habituate violence then the path is set and all else can easily fall into place.   i rambled again  *

_"We can't all be victims, therefore I would think that it is more a matter of what sort of conditioning a given fighters mind has undergone."_ *correct again and one of my somewhat elusive points.....  but conditioning the mind first and foremost.... when I served in the military the very first thing they did was begin to mentally undo my social setting and rules and instill thier own...  I was trained to act until its done*

_"I, and most other soldiers, have have mental boundaries yet we are able to function just fine under conditions where we are faced with serious levels of violence."  _* probably so but my experience whas somewhat different... I learned that mentally I had no limits and that I could push myself to do what seemed impossible physically....   but then again, would mental boundaries keep one from jumping on a grenade, i think so.... so maybe it is an individual mindset that some  have and some do not. I was trained not to think and question but to do...  in theatres of war the mindset and the training is not of a "combat sport" nature although some martial arts techniques may be used for de-animation its not a duel....its taking them out quickly and smoothly*

_"If we must not have boundaries to survive a violent encounter, how is it that there are so many of us walking around with combat patches?Is it because we are conditioned different mentally?"_ *you survived violence for a reason and part of it was because you are conditioned to act... you are mentally conditioned to do what you are trained...the physical body follows  you are given predatory instincts in boot camp... there isnt a bunch of fillers and fooling around... its cut and dry... take em out.... *

*the military did help with the mindset I had but did not know how to use... it is because i was pushed so far physically that all i had was my mind to keep me going...  that mind had no limits because if it did...i would have  drowned, fainted or whatever else one who mentally gives up does.... *
*and of course there are circumstances beyond ones control but that shouldnt keep one from habituating an unreasonable mind....    *

"_Is it because we have a skill set, both armed and unarmed that we have tested in training, under realistic conditions, against resisting opponents?"_ 
*precisely how the stage should be set....  some people just want the other to stand there and take it but that isnt realistic.... one has to be resisted to learn to resist*

_"If either of the preceding answers are correct then shouldn't we apply those lessons learned to the benefit of any student that we train?" _ *If the lesson learned will be beneficial... some have survived violence by running and leaving others to die...some have survived by hiding under a bed... and some have survived because they were mentally without limits and thier most powerful weapon(mind) led thier physical body to act as needed....    it depends *

_"If not, should we instead trust our safety and the safety of our students to purely theoretical knowledge?"_ * what is thoeretical...  the mind is the most powerful weapon in the universe...not a theory... we forge our reality through our mind... the conditioning starts there... if we worry about things such as the persons size or wether they have a gun or knife it takes the focus of the task at hand... inflicting injury to incapacitate... one must know they may get hit... one must know that they may get cut...one must know that the gun will go off but not mentally focused on it....  if these things become the primary focus when it is time to act then the mind will put the body in a dangerous position.... we do what we do through muscle memory  but that can be stifled mentally if the focus is off....*
*there is no theory in habituating violence.... it happens and can happen *
*there is no theory in anatomical weakness... it is fact*
*there is no theory in striking these weaknesses...there is one way to do it the most effeectively and its not theoretical...its physics... force x mass 
there is no theory in interrupting or traumatizing the central nervous system... it is fact  *

_"Stronger,faster, and bigger is better.It is why actual martial artist and professional fighter train to increase their speed,strength, mass, and other physical factor that make a fighter more effective."_ *This is the social combat sport environment and cannot be confused with martial combat...there is always someone out there who is bigger-stronger-faster so the cycle never ends... so mentally i am discluded from that cycle and all i see is a mound of flesh and bone that can be injured broken and killed just like any other.... mentally being unreasonable i dont care what thier stature is becuase that isnt my focuse...my focus is crumbling them no matter what... *
*if the above you stated is the case, then how can you effectively train a child to combat that or better yet and elderly woman??? if they are focused on stature they lose automatically becuase society tells them so... but if thier mental focus is on violence they are no longer governed by rules or society...and thier physical being can act selflessly.... 
I once trained to increase speed and strength becuase i wanted to be on top of my game...but effective speed and strength are not in elasticity...speed comes from being smooth and strength comes from using the entire body to penetrate and rotate through the mass...   why do tai chi masters go so slow???  why do they generate so much power???  how do they move so methodically in and out without exerting lighting speed????*

_"If two fighter are of equal skill, do you think that the fighter that is more physically fit, stronger, and better conditioned won't have a tremendous(nearly insurmountable even) advantage over the fighter that isn't?"_ **if they are equal in skill there is no advantage...but assuming that the opponent has a physical advantage or "insurmountable davantage" even.... lets say I am @ the disadvantage here but with equal skill(always assume the opponent knows what you know).... to me in my mind none of those things you mentioned make any difference becuase all I have to do is injure him first... i know what causes injury, I know what causes trauma, I know what the pthological limits are in the joints, i know how to target and get in there to get the job done so no matter what the size-speed-strength if they are injured it means nothing...at that point in time that is all i am there to do- destroy flesh and bone *

_"Reliance on dirty tricks in a fight are a poor substitute for actually being able to fight.On a similar note, a well conditioned and fit fighter can throw the dreaded eye-gouge too. The well conditioned fighter can also target the groin, throat, knee, ear clap, and EVERY SINGLE DIRTY TRICK that any non-conditioned fighter can, and will in point of fact be better at it than a fighter who isn't fit."_*  There are no dirty tricks in an anti-social state...violence itself(collapsing an eye, crushing the orbital fissures,rupturing an eardrum, tearing the scrotum, puncturing an aorta etc)is not a poor substitiute its a means to an end, thiers or yours. Felons, gangsters, rapists, murderers, prisoners dont go to the dojo to train thier technique, they dont go to the martial arts studio to hone thier skill, they simply know that violence works to get what they want and they are not afraid to use it... we are thier training and they get better every time they succeed... I dont go out stalking people and killing them for my own pleasure so does that make me less trained or skilled... they have hands on asocial violent interactions at which they are the perpetrator or predator... we dont train that way in "society" and they dont train our way in "asocial violence"....  *

_"Size, strength, and speed matter. Those factor matter so much, in fact, that athletes form other contact sports like football, and hockey can usually hold their own in a street fight against most martial arts black belts.The reason that most boxers and wrestlers fare better in street altercations that the typical black belt is due to the methodology of their training and the focus on building all those physical attributes in particular."_ ** All that was mentioned above is social and competitive in nature and has nothing to do with an asocial violence encounter... and if im not mistaken seems contradictory....  I can see that further into your response the social aspect would take over....  *

_"What if after the first class she doesn't get randomly attacked in the parking lot? What if she goes and gets ice cream and reads a nice novel after she gets home? What if she earns a degree in French literature, marries a nice guy, has a couple of kids, a rewarding career, and retires in the south of France.Your scenario is a lot less likely. The overwhelming majority of rapes are acquaintance rapes and the variable in the scenarion would be much different.None the less. lets use the worst case scenario instead of the most realistic one."_ *That is a perfect social setting its just missing the wrapping paper and bow.... and the setting does not matter your imagination is infinite and so is thiers,  you train for the worst case scenario at all times... there are plenty out there being raped and killed after walking home from the bar.... its not always little billy from next door....even still its irrelevant in training someone to use violence against someone else... bottom line, women get raped and killed all the time at all hours in various places... you are training them not to be that person and if they are in iminent danger of becoming that person then they know violence is thier only friend and they can exact worst case scenario violence on the opposiotion....  *

_What if after the first class, when Bubba grabbed her she hit him with a straight right to the bridge of the nose? While he is reacting to the hit she runs away and calls the police? What if, while feeling all empowered as opposed to being spoon fed the idea that she will be a victim, she deters her assailant with she elects to fight back and does so successfully thanks to actually receiving realistic training that included a resistant training partner so she could learn what movements work for her?"_ **Even better, a full bodied forearm to the to the throat simultaneously accompanied with a palm to the ear followed by a knee to the groin then a knee to the sternum then a stomp to the knee followed by a broken neck.... popping a 200lb dude in the bridge of the nose may open him up but wont stop him now hes chasing you down the street even more enraged...    *
* if you teach to hit and run they could become game...yes, sometimes there is a means to an escape but you still have a thinking moving combatant....will they just try on the next one that comes along...did you drop your purse? can they now freely stalk you becuase they have your identity? also, police are responders not protectors...they normally come after the fact , i would rather them call 911 to say they just injured someone that tried victimize them and they are not moving or breathing ...   *
*Yes they do need a COMPLIANT and a RESISTANT *
*partner so they can learn how injury works and how to inflict it...under actual circumstances....*

_"I am forced to wonder what experience you have training in a heavy contact enviornment."  _*Dont worry my friend...I have had plenty and much more to come... I have some scars and I have some stories and I am sure I will get more....  *
*I have seen my share in the studio and my share in the real world... *
*If I had not... I would not be spending time here sharing with you all  *

_"If, as you say, size and strength do not matter, then why the concern about her safety in training?Does putting on the pads and participating in sparring make her brittle?"_ *I never said anything about concern for her being brittle... I think pads dont give you the just of what it feels like to touch a nerve or have a nerve touched... putting pads on when you train will make anyone brittle...same as if i walked around with a knee brace on all day i would become dependent on it... pads hide the "truth" of pain....  
In training I am a firm believer in an even playin field...attack and be attacked...compliant and non compliant....there are always two sides and both must be explored fully.... *

_"How is training to actually fight by doing so beating around the bush if the goal of training is to be good at self-defense?I would think that quite the opposite is true. By getting in there and putting forth effort to become a good fighter any martial artist is taking the most direct route to skill at fighting."_ *You will definately get an E for effort...but it all still sounds social to me...and self defense is not even in my vocabulary... the goal of training "combatives" is to be able to effectively target use violence as a tool and a means to an end. *

_"The most effective tools to use in a fight are simple, efficient, techniques, that have been internalized to a degree that their use is second nature. You don't get that level of internalization in a week long self defense seminar.It comes through repetitions.Even then, the effectiveness of those techs will be limited by the physical attributes of the person executing those movements. There is no shortcut, not death touch, no secret"punch them here and the bad guy will go away" button.There is only solid technique, performed by a physically capable fighter." _ *Efficiency no doubt comes from repetition and habitutating which in turn makes it second nature...."muscle memory"   *
*You may not get the level of ingestion or internalization in a week that you would in 3 months but it doesnt take forever...if that was the case*
*the military wouldnt prodice soldiers so fast.....     Instant immersion is the key, like throwing a kid who cant swim in a pool with no floatie... they will swim or sink.... of course you would not throw a kid in a pool with someone waiting to try to drown him at first...he needs to learn how to swim, then do it ... they must first learn to combat themselves then they can combat a hundred opponents....    *

**you are saying that effectiveness of applications is based on physical stature again... this is untrue... no matter what size you are if you are not injured you can inflict injury.... here again... is this how you would train an elderly woman....?? or child??? they are obviously never going to be stronger and faster than a 25 year old 200lb male...  you might as well tell them sorry you are too old/young to be physically effective ina combative situation....  *
**no there is no magic to make them go away but there is injury to render them non-functional....   *
**there are solid principles that can create infinite techniques...*


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 5, 2008)

BLACK LION said:


> \
> 
> Actually sarge I agree with pretty much all your posts...and have thanked you in such
> I think we may be mis-understanding each other...
> ...


 Actually you can get rid of the padding if you REALLY want to get down to realistic sparring...i'm not arguing for or against padding.  The fact remains, though, that the padding is there ONLY to prevent injuries in training.  It's a real-world trade-off.  But padding isn't an integral part of sparring.  Sparring or free fighting is what teaches us to use our techniques against a resistant opponent.....and BELIEVE ME in a real fight the other guy isn't going to cooperate.



BLACK LION said:


> and second we seem to disagree that violence is or is not "chaos"
> 
> violence in and of itself should not be confusing or disorderly... it is pure and unadulterated...it is deliberate and determined...it is purposeful and meaningful physical force with the intention to inflict injury or damage....
> there is nothing confusing to me about that, infact it is quite clear.
> what is chaos to me... is the social deterioration that preceded the act itself and/or the social deterioration that is accompanied after that act itself.....


 It's all the same....part of one whole.

As Clausewitz said....war is nothing more than the continuation of politics by other means.  The chaos of war comes from the fog...the fact that there are variables you CANNOT know or control going in to any fight.  Fighting IS chaos, because you cannot know all the variables.


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## BLACK LION (Sep 5, 2008)

"Fighting IS chaos, because you cannot know all the variables." this is correct the "fight" is chaos....  

I was just elaborating on the fact that the violent act itself is not chaotic...its either happening to you or to them 

we seem to have the same mindset sarge... we just have the internet keeping us from truly expressing ourselves....  I understand you and I know spewing typed words on a forum gets confusing... thank you for taking time to further explain and elaborate on your mindset so there is no confusion or misconception 

broderick


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