# Goin to J-pan



## Aiki Lee (Feb 12, 2009)

Hi all, this summer my family and I are going to japan for a few weeks. As we are all martial artists we are seeking places of training. For those of you in the bujinkan, genbukan, or jinekan: is it possible to train as a guest there in the hombu dojos for perhaps a day or even a few hours?

If any of you could provide some insight I'd be much obliged. I know I likely won't be training under the masters directly, but to just be able to see them or train in their dojos would be swell.

Also FYI :After Japan my family and I are going to China for a week to train at the sholain temple for a day and tour some of the country.


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## WesternCiv (Feb 12, 2009)

Congratulations.  I'm sure you'll have a great time.

I want to say that you have to be a member of the Genubkan or KJJR for some period of time before being allowed to train at the Honbu -- but I don't know for sure.  If you'd like to contact the Genbukan and ask just follow this link:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?contact

Good luck!


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 13, 2009)

Unless you're a member of the Bujinkan dojo, you can not participate or watch at the Honbu.  Sorry, but you will be checked once inside. 

Don't take it personal, you pretty much have to be a member of any group to join in training there. Especially traditional schools. Loads of martial arts classes though!  If your Nihongo is really good, maybe you can sweet talk them.

There are plenty of Budokans (not the concert hall) around, just follow the people with the sword cases or bow cases on the trains!   One of the reasons I love Japan!

There are plenty of Japan travel blogs to get extra info. 
http://www.tokyotopia.com/

Most of the training halls (Budokan) I've found are in Japanese.  I'm not much help there for you.

Hope that helps.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 13, 2009)

Me personally I made sure to have my Honbu card ready, and in 6 sessions I never got checked once and saw quite a few guests.

BUt thats my experience there.


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 13, 2009)

You might not have been checked when you were last in Japan but this has changed.  The last three years I've been at Hombu anyone not immediately recognizable was questioned.  I won't go into the weirdos who have had to be thrown out.

Now, if you are with a group and the leaders or other members of the group are known members, you probably won't be bothered. But depending on which class you train at questions will be asked on who your teacher is even with the group.  I'm basing this answer on your question.

My Japanese friend who is new to the training was with me on his first time to honbu and he was questioned as to who he was immediately, but luckily I had introduced him to a few other members of the residents and they vouched for him.

It's up to you Himura.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 14, 2009)

My instructor had a similar experience last october on his first trip there, but he was prepared, and was also with someone who trains there regularly to introduce him.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 14, 2009)

To train in the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinekan you need to be a member of the respective organization.  Truthfully in the Bujinkan if you are not a member with training *you will be totally lost*.


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## Dale Seago (Feb 14, 2009)

MMcGuirk said:


> You might not have been checked when you were last in Japan but this has changed.  The last three years I've been at Hombu anyone not immediately recognizable was questioned.  I won't go into the weirdos who have had to be thrown out.
> 
> Now, if you are with a group and the leaders or other members of the group are known members, you probably won't be bothered. But depending on which class you train at questions will be asked on who your teacher is even with the group.  I'm basing this answer on your question.
> 
> My Japanese friend who is new to the training was with me on his first time to honbu and he was questioned as to who he was immediately, but luckily I had introduced him to a few other members of the residents and they vouched for him.



This brings up an interesting, and perhaps even a bit scary (if you think deeply about the implications), tangential point.

I won't even speculate on how many hundreds or thousands of foreigners cycle through varying periods of training with Soke and the shihan each year. Yet the ones who haven't been there before, even though they may have a membership card and may have trained for some time and have decent movement, will be questioned. In a polite way, certainly; but the shihan will want to know who they are, where they're from, who their instructor is, etc.

Somewhere around 2/3 to 3/4 of my dojo students have gone to Japan to train at least once, and I'd say probably half go on a recurring basis once or twice a year. . .on their own or with a friend or two, usually not with me. (I give them enough information to get around on their own without having to have a "shepherd", and they can do all the training with ME they want to when they get back.) The ones going over for the first time all report the same experience when they return: They get noticed and quizzed; then when it's established that they train with me they're treated extremely well.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 16, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> To train in the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinekan you need to be a member of the respective organization. Truthfully in the Bujinkan if you are not a member with training *you will be totally lost*.


 

not quite sure what you mean by totally lost, but I'm a bit diassapointed that these organizations wouldn't allow guests to come in and train. I understand that no one wants a person who is just idlely curious to waste their time, but those of us who are genuinely into martial arts training seem to get the shaft.

What I'm looking for is really a training experience that goes beyond what one could consider "tourist" martial arts groups. You know, guys who have never done MA before and try it out because they are in Japan but normally wouldn't think twice about it.

Are there other Bujinkan, Jinekan, or Genbukan schools in Japan that will allow me to train with them? If there HQ are off limits are there other school that might let us hang out and try their classes? If so, do you know where they are so I can set up a meeting with them?


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## jks9199 (Feb 16, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> not quite sure what you mean by totally lost, but I'm a bit diassapointed that these organizations wouldn't allow guests to come in and train. I understand that no one wants a person who is just idlely curious to waste their time, but those of us who are genuinely into martial arts training seem to get the shaft.
> 
> What I'm looking for is really a training experience that goes beyond what one could consider "tourist" martial arts groups. You know, guys who have never done MA before and try it out because they are in Japan but normally wouldn't think twice about it.
> 
> Are there other Bujinkan, Jinekan, or Genbukan schools in Japan that will allow me to train with them? If there HQ are off limits are there other school that might let us hang out and try their classes? If so, do you know where they are so I can set up a meeting with them?


A few things to consider...

First, you're looking at this through "American eyes" and kind of discounting the cultural norms of Japan.  You don't simply stumble in and start training in a lot of dojos in Japan.  You need to be recommended and granted permission to train.  Visitors also need recommendation or referral.  It's a different culture, and things work differently there.

Second, the Hombu dojo is the home of the style.  It's the headquarters, and, for the Bujinkan, Hatsumi seems to do most or all of the instruction at Hombu.  Wanting to walk in as a visitor and train would be kind of like going to Rome and expecting the Pope to hear your confession, even though you're not even Catholic, or going to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in DC, and expecting to walk in the door and sit down at a Cabinet meeting.

Third, there's the whole issue of simply walking in the door to train at all.  If you don't have the basics for a style, how can you hope to wander into an advanced class and benefit from the training?  Imagine walking into an advanced calculus course without basic arithmetic and geometry...

I'd suggest locating a Bujinkan, Jinekan, or Genbukan instructor in your area.  Talk to them about getting some exposure to the style, and perhaps a recommendation to a school you can visit while you're in Japan.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 17, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> A few things to consider...
> 
> First, you're looking at this through "American eyes" and kind of discounting the cultural norms of Japan. You don't simply stumble in and start training in a lot of dojos in Japan. You need to be recommended and granted permission to train. Visitors also need recommendation or referral. It's a different culture, and things work differently there..


 
I wonder how these dojos bring in any money if they don't actively recruit new students. Wouldn't they want to share their art? I know I would. I understand not wanting to have to deal with the idley curous but to those who are genuinely interested it seems like a waste.



jks9199 said:


> Second, the Hombu dojo is the home of the style. It's the headquarters, and, for the Bujinkan, Hatsumi seems to do most or all of the instruction at Hombu. Wanting to walk in as a visitor and train would be kind of like going to Rome and expecting the Pope to hear your confession, even though you're not even Catholic, or going to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in DC, and expecting to walk in the door and sit down at a Cabinet meeting.


 
Yet the Pope and US president go to public events were anyone can see them (though not necessarily meet them). The point I wanted to make was I do train in ninjutsu in America, but I don't belong to these organizations. I wanted to see what training is like in Japan just to gain a different perspective. 



jks9199 said:


> Third, there's the whole issue of simply walking in the door to train at all. If you don't have the basics for a style, how can you hope to wander into an advanced class and benefit from the training? Imagine walking into an advanced calculus course without basic arithmetic and geometry...


 
I have training in koto ryu, gyokko ryu, togakure ryu, tagaki yoshin ryu, and kukishin ryu (decended from the actual family not the the verison passed on through Takamatsu). I'm not a mere beginner. The Jizaikan teaches most of the same styles that the Bujinkan teaches plus a few others that are not taught such as Daito ryu and Eishin ryu. So I'm quite versed in the basics thank you.



jks9199 said:


> I'd suggest locating a Bujinkan, Jinekan, or Genbukan instructor in your area. Talk to them about getting some exposure to the style, and perhaps a recommendation to a school you can visit while you're in Japan.


 
I'm happy with my current organization, and it isn't worth it to me have to go through all this "red tape" to maybe be able to train in the Honbu. I get that Hatsumi or Tanemura would be bothered constantly if they allowed people to get to the so easily, but aren't there a lot of Shihans at the Honbu? Couldn't some of them deal with visitors that wanted to train? It seems to be unnecessarily exclusive to me.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 17, 2009)

Jks9199 tried to explain this to you.  They are there to teach the students of their respective arts and most importantly members of their organizations.  I cannot speak for the Genbukan or Jinekan but the Bujinkan is *incredibly busy* with upwards of sixty to one hundred people in the hombu dojo at any time for Hatsumi's classes. (and it is a small building)  So the Bujinkan is very busy.  Also the Japanese Shihan's classes are busy as well.  While you are *genuinely interested* you are also *ideally curious* by your own definition in a way because your intention is just to go and train but not be a part of the Bujinkan.  So you would be taking up space in a way from some one who wants to be there and is a part of the Bujinkan. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  The Shihans of the Bujinkan are also about teaching members of the Bujinkan as well.  Sorry I cannot help you more.  

_You certainly *could* become a *Bujikan, Genbukan or Jinekan member* and train with a certified Shidoshi and then visit Japan and experience the training._


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 17, 2009)

*As for being lost when training in the Hombu dojo?*  Well I have seen people with fifteen or twenty years or more of training scratching their heads.  I have seen this repeatedly and experienced it myself.  Basics may not be enough. :rofl:


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 17, 2009)

> I have training in koto ryu, gyokko ryu, togakure ryu, tagaki yoshin ryu, and kukishin ryu (decended from the actual family not the the verison passed on through Takamatsu


 As in trained in Japan with the actual families? I thought the descendants have nothing to do with the martial side. I have also read with an interview with Tanemura that Togakure ryu was in fragaments and Takamatsu pieced it together.

You could always contact Hombu by phone and ask if you can go. I did this at another school though.


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## MMcGuirk (Feb 17, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> This brings up an interesting, and perhaps even a bit scary (if you think deeply about the implications), tangential point.
> 
> I won't even speculate on how many hundreds or thousands of foreigners cycle through varying periods of training with Soke and the shihan each year. Yet the ones who haven't been there before, even though they may have a membership card and may have trained for some time and have decent movement, will be questioned. In a polite way, certainly; but the shihan will want to know who they are, where they're from, who their instructor is, etc.
> 
> Somewhere around 2/3 to 3/4 of my dojo students have gone to Japan to train at least once, and I'd say probably half go on a recurring basis once or twice a year. . .on their own or with a friend or two, usually not with me. (I give them enough information to get around on their own without having to have a "shepherd", and they can do all the training with ME they want to when they get back.) The ones going over for the first time all report the same experience when they return: They get noticed and quizzed; then when it's established that they train with me they're treated extremely well.


 
I think I see what you mean on the vast amount of people coming through, I'm still kicking it around.  It's also amazing the amount of good people who manage the trip.  I've met people from almost every religion, culture and corner of the world at honbu and we all seem to immediately get along.  Maybe it's the shared experience and love for the art?  For my part, I don't always say hello to everyone.  There's just too many people sometimes!  But when we do get a chance to hang out friendships are made. 

And so as not to thread drift:  In general no one should take it personally if they are not allowed access to a school they are not part of.  It's just not how it works in Japan or any old school MA for that matter. No one is trying to be rude, it's just a precaution.  As suggested, joining one of the three aforementioned schools is probably the better start to gain access.  

In a way, those of us living in the west are lucky.  We can go to most any dojo, fill out an application and then join.  I've spoken with Kung Fu practitioners and Vo Vat (Vietnamese Kung Fu) people and they basically had to beg and spend a lot of time allowing the teacher to get to know them before being accepted as students.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 17, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I wonder how these dojos bring in any money if they don't actively recruit new students.



Call me CRAZY... (ok Zombie you are Crazy) but when an Art becomes all about making money, it becomes worthless.  Then you get crap like Long Distance Training courses, Video Black Belt testing, and selling "mastership" in your newly founded "better improved, we know more than the masters who have been doing it 50 years" version of the art to established schools of Karate or some other art and making them one of your franchises.  Then you suddenly have a master of "Toad Thai Do Ninjutsu" who has trained in the art for all of 16 hours teaching it for the new "Soke" or "Anshu" or whatever term the "founder" grants him/herself.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 17, 2009)

Where to begin:

Fisrt off I concede that perhaps I don't belong at the Honbu dojos since I don't belong to those organizations. So I understand and respect this position.

As for people scratching their heads after fifteen years or so and what not, not everyone will get everything all the time but from the training videos I've seen of the honbu dojo there doesn't seem to be anything so advanced that I don't understand what is going on.

As for the kukishin family, the founder of the Jizaikan trains with a man who trains directly under the family of kukishin. Kukishin teachings were passed on to takamatsu, but that's no reason to believe that the family line itself doesn't carry the traditions down themselves.

Cryo zombie, I'm not saying that a martial art school should be concerned about ONLY making money. I hate video testing and mcdojos just as much as the rest of you, but if enough students aren't training how does one keep up the funds to keep the dojo running properly and then how does one spread their art without the funds? 


I didn't mean to come across to anyone with the idea that I "deserve" to train at the honbu of the bujinkan, I just thought it would be cool to add to my ninjutsu training the experience of practicing it in its homeland, but if it's not allowed then it's not allowed I guess.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 17, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> As for people scratching their heads after fifteen years or so and what not, not everyone will get everything all the time but from the training videos I've seen of the honbu dojo there doesn't seem to be anything so advanced that I don't understand what is going on.



No offense, but if you feel that way, I don't thing you don't get it AT all.  I bring that perspective from attending numerous seminars with high ranking very skilled people in our art, and you watch the mix of students training;  The lower kyu ranked students are just like "oh yeah, easy, I get it, it makes total sense" while all the Blackbelts are scratching their heads going... "no, wait, how did it..." because they SEE/FEEL the subtley that the lower ranks don't, and those lower ranks are missing the point.




Himura Kenshin said:


> Cryo zombie, I'm not saying that a martial art school should be concerned about ONLY making money. I hate video testing and mcdojos just as much as the rest of you, but if enough students aren't training how does one keep up the funds to keep the dojo running properly and then how does one spread their art without the funds?



What can I say... I look at out school and say thats not true. Our dojo is a private club.  We make no money... my teacher teaches because he loves it. We pay a _small _fee each month (_under 30 dollars a month_) that goes to the dojo, for training materials.  We all maintain "real" jobs, the club came together and built out our dojo space ourselves over the course of a couple weekends.  As far as new students go, they are referral only, so WE bring in new students we feel are worth training with, and even then, they need to be voted in.  It has NOTHING to do with money, and we do just fine without "enough students" or using the art to make money.  The only way I could see you need to charge some huge fee is a) you dont wanna work for a living so you teach MA (not saying that isn't work, I just mean separately) and/or you maintain an expensive commercial space.  None of that is NECESSARY (IMO and experience) to teach your art.


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## stephen (Feb 17, 2009)

Few things:

1. If you're looking for a dojo to pop into and watch some training I would first check your local area. Barring that, you could go to Kutaki.org and see if anyone there would be interested in having a visitor while you're in Japan. I think it not improbable that one of the foreigners or more foreigner-friendly (read:"english speaking") resident Shihan wouldn't mind you watching a training. I do have a feeling though that people are going to ask you to check your local area first, and it seems like a reasonable request. After all, it's not entertainment, it's training and other people are there to train. 

2. It's not about making money. 

3. If you think you get it, you don't. Not because it's so mystical that no one can hope to possibly 'get it', but because there's no way I spend so much time over there trying to understand what's up if someone who's seen a few videos has it down cold. 

No offense, really, it's just that if it's that easy it's not worth it to me. (Trust me, and everyone else, it's not _that_ obvious.) 

4. I'm no historian, but I believe, from what I understand, that your understanding of the Kuki family lineage with regards to Takamatsu sensei might be flawed. 

Someone else please jump in here, but isn't it Takamatsu sensei that reconstructed their martial arts for them? Or did they have an intact lineage and he just copied the scrolls? (But then, why would they need him to copy them if the lineage was intact?)


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## jks9199 (Feb 17, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I wonder how these dojos bring in any money if they don't actively recruit new students. Wouldn't they want to share their art? I know I would. I understand not wanting to have to deal with the idley curous but to those who are genuinely interested it seems like a waste.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You've left those Western lenses over your eyes...

The dojos in Japan aren't necessarily about making money.  (In fact, not all martial arts training halls/clubs here in the US are about making money, either...)

The culture is different.  Think about it; the culture in the Northeast of the US is radically different than the culture of the Southeast... which is different from the Southwest.  Now consider a culture that was largely self-isolated from the world for many years, is made up of lots of people in very tight quarters...  The Japanese culture is dramatically different from ours.  When we insist on trying to view them through the lens of our culture -- we're sure to find ourselves making mistakes.  (We'll probably make them anyway, but making that minimal effort to understand that it is different will go along way towards minimizing their impact.)


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 19, 2009)

Look, no training is so advanced that a person can't pick something up out of what they see. I'm not saying that I'd instantly get all the little subtle secrects going on within a technique being presented. That would be arrogant.

I respect Hatsumi and the Bujinkan, that's why I wanted to see if I could try it out in Japan. I don't know if i'll ever be able to go back to japan again, so I thought this might be my only chance to see the honbu.

As for the kukishin, Takamatsu helped them with the recreation of the scrolls, but the teachings were still passed on through the family. I can't _prove _this, but my teacher said that that's where he got the kukishin's teachnings (he has learned the Takamatsu version as well), and I have no reason not to believe him.

If it were up to me, no dojo would have to worry about money. If a person wants to make that his full time job though, it shouldn't somehow make his art less "authentic" after all that's how musashi and other old timey warriors went about earning a living. Martial arts was their JOB. There's nothing wrong with making a profit off of a service (teaching MA) that is being provided.

I'm feeling slightly offended by some of these responses. If I came off sounding like an *** at some point I apologize, but to me it sounds like you are all infering that I'm incapable of understanding the teachings of the bujinkan (which I don't understand since half of my schools lineage stems from the bujinkan), or that I think a dojo's focus should be on making money (it shouldn't). Please don't make assumptions about me when you have never met me. If you don't understand something I talk about or question something I say, then just ask. I'll do my best to clairify.

After talking with you guys, I can understand why the Bujinkan wouldn't want just any old schmuck to waltz in the door for an introductory lesson at the honbu, i thought at first that the honbu would be like any other dojo and have beginners classes, which was all that I was loking for over there. If it is only for higher ranks bujinkan members then, I see how it would be improper of me to be there.

One last question: Do all bujinkan dojos in japan require you be recommended by someone before being allowed to train? Or are there some places where you can walk in and sign up?


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## lost_in_translation (Feb 19, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Look, no training is so advanced that a person can't pick something up out of what they see. I'm not saying that I'd instantly get all the little subtle secrects going on within a technique being presented. That would be arrogant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't know about other dojos but the one I train at requires
www.freewebs.com/bujinkannafiannadojoyamagata/

 a) a letter of introduction from your teacher if you are from another Bujinkan dojo  
or
 b) an interview with the sensei before you will be allowed in the door.

If you make up this way, think about looking us up


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 20, 2009)

lost_in_translation said:


> Don't know about other dojos but the one I train at requires
> www.freewebs.com/bujinkannafiannadojoyamagata/
> 
> a) a letter of introduction from your teacher if you are from another Bujinkan dojo
> ...



Thanks for stopping by and I will say that I like your dojo's website.  The DVD video clips are nice as well.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 20, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> As for the kukishin, Takamatsu helped them with the recreation of the scrolls, but the teachings were still passed on through the family. I can't _prove _this, but my teacher said that that's where he got the kukishin's teachnings (he has learned the Takamatsu version as well), and I have no reason not to believe him.


 

Hi,

The Kuki family lost their Martial Art in the Tokugawa period, apparently when a Shihan of the group got involved in a duel and killed a person who had ties to the Shogun's family. As a result, they were banned from training their Martial Art, but were allowed to maintain their personnal expression of Shintoism, known as Nakatomi Shinto. Fortunately, the Kukishin Ryu was big and prominent enough to have had established offshoots, a number of which found their way to Takamatsu Sensei, who eventually made contact with the then current head of the Kuki family, Kuki Takahara. He then assisted the Kuki's in re-discovering their Martial traditions. 



Himura Kenshin said:


> One last question: Do all bujinkan dojos in japan require you be recommended by someone before being allowed to train? Or are there some places where you can walk in and sign up?


 
This is not, as has been infered, unique to the Bujinkan. I have personnally gone through interview procedures to simply establish if I was serious enough in my interest in a koryu being taught here in Melbourne to simply watch a class. Not join in, but watch. And, if I behaved myself, acted with respect towards the practitioners and art, I would be allowed to ask some questions. And then, based on my questions and how I recieved the answers, I may or may not be offered to take up a probationary membership. So simply being asked who you're instructor is is quite non-invasive here.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 20, 2009)

My teacher's teacher is Thomas Maienza. He is the one who claims to have trained with a higher ranked kukishin student who is of a branch different from the bujinkan and was somehow connected to the original family either through direct lineage or marriage (i can't remember the details). Maienza was also in the bujinkan and studied kukishinden under that, and he has told me that while the core remains the same there are some variations.

What I meant when I said that no lessons are so advanced that you can't get anything out of it did not imply that I could see it once and then instantly know the secrets. Even if I miss the "point" of the technique or the principle of it or the subtlety, what I meant was I could at least probably find something new in the lesson that I hadn't thought of before. But to say I'm "totally wrong" means you didn't really understand what I was trying to say. Those upper level black belts that scratch their heads should at least be able to think to themselves that "oh, I could use something like this technique if I applied it this way." or something like that.


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## lost_in_translation (Feb 21, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Thanks for stopping by and I will say that I like your dojo's website. The DVD video clips are nice as well.


 
I'll pass on the message to my teacher


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## Chris Parker (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi Himura,

From what I understand, the Kukishin(den) Ryu was passed on in a number of forms (variations) to a number of people. He also did this with other schools, such as Takagi Ryu, giving each variation a different name (Takagi Yoshin Ryu/Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu/Kukishin Ryu/Kijin Chosui Ryu etc). In fact, the Kukishinden Ryu as taught in the Bujinkan seems to me to be made up of up to 11 seperate branches of the school...

So there will be similarities, and differences in the two versions. For example, the Bujinkan variant primarily uses the Dakentaijutsu/Yoroi Kumiuchi syllabus for the unarmed section, whereas the Kuki family version uses a variation of the Takagi Ryu Jutaijutsu. But none of that changes where the Kuki family rediscovered their art from.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 21, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> So there will be similarities, and differences in the two versions. For example, the Bujinkan variant primarily uses the Dakentaijutsu/Yoroi Kumiuchi syllabus for the unarmed section, whereas the Kuki family version uses a variation of the Takagi Ryu Jutaijutsu. But none of that changes where the Kuki family rediscovered their art from.


 
All I know is that Mr. Maienza said that our line of kukishin teachings are not the same as what had been taught in the bujinkan and ours stems from a person connected to the kuki family. Your probably right in saying that Takamatsu still helped them rediscover it, but that leaves the question as to where he learned it. Wasn't it from an off shoot branch? I believe this is where our teachings come from, but I should probably check with Mr. Maienza before mentioning anything further about it, because its been so long since I talked about it with him.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 22, 2009)

Takamatsu Sensei recieved his lineages of Kukishin Ryu and it's variants from two main teachers; Ishitani Sensei taught him Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken (as well as Takagi Yoshin Ryu), and Mizuta Sensei, from whom he recieved the Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and the related Hontai Kukishin Ryu. Several of the branches of the original school had followed a 200 year round journey to end up in the hands of Ishitani Sensei, and when Takamatsu combined this knowledge with the branches of Mizuta Sensei, he was able to begin re-constructing the Ryuha. As stated, Takamatsu met with Kuki Takahara, and started a friendship/relationship with him based on the concept of buyu (martial friends). Kuki assisted Takamatsu by providing documents from his family collection, and Takamatsu repaid the kindness by helping reconnect the Kuki family with their tradition, banned since the Edo era.

When Takamatsu went to China, his documents listed him as a Master of Kukishin Ryu, as well as Jujutsu. If I recall correctly, this is before the Kuki family were reunited with the martial side of their arts, only possessing the Nakatomi Ryu Shinto religious practices.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 22, 2009)

Hey Mr. Parker,

Are there books that explain the histories of the schools in the kans that you know of? Or is most of the history lessons passed on through word of mouth? If there are books I'd like to find them.

ps. I emailed Mr. Maienza about our version of kukishin so hopefully he'll get back to me soon.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 22, 2009)

Here is one book written by Paul Richardson that is good. 

http://www.budoya.org/Books/Buj-history.html


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## Legendary Wolf (Feb 22, 2009)

Look up some of the following;

Takagi Ryu Chugokui Mokuroku : http://www.lulu.com/content/1668120

Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu (This is a reprint of the work that was re-released ten years ago, which is now super hard to find) :
http://www.budomart.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_SHIHAN_12.html   ( I have not read the Takagi book on this site, so I will not add anything about it)

Ninpo Secrets by Tanemura Sensei

If you can read Japanese, or have extremely nice japanese friends, get yourself a copy of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and The Kuki Bunsha no Kenkyu 
http://www.budoguten.futagotrader.com/books/     (item# KB001) This is in my opinion, the be all end all book about the Kuki Family.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 23, 2009)

You know, I was going to give a list, but you guys have covered most already! But, just to add to it, Serge Mol's "Classical Fighting Arts Of Japan", Wolfgang Ettig's biography of Takamatsu Toshitsugu, and trawling through any and every website/forum I could find, as well as learning from anyone I can around me. Just remember that each different account is given from a particular perspective (even mine), so do as much cross-referencing as possible, and you'll start to get a feel for the way things operate.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 23, 2009)

Legendary Wolf said:


> Look up some of the following;
> 
> Takagi Ryu Chugokui Mokuroku : http://www.lulu.com/content/1668120
> 
> ...


 

The Takagi book at the Solkan site (budomart.com) is Shihan Arnaud Cousergue's interpretation of Takagi Yoshin Ryu as taught in the Bujinkan. Little history here, but a very good technical reference. Although I don't agree with every interpretation (which is the point, really), it is still a highly respected work.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks! You guys are super helpful. I chek into some of these, but sadly my japanese is still beginner level so I wouldn't get much out of a book that is not in english.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 8, 2009)

Ahem...

So I met with Mr. Maienza and asked him questions about kukishin, and it seemed I was somewhat mistaken. Here's the gist of what he told me.

_The kukishin methods practiced in the Jizaikan are a combination of the different interpretations of the skills found within the Bujinkan and in the off shoot practices that stemmed from the original Kuki family. For those off-shoot variations the teachings come from a friend in Japan who teaches Kukishin to a select group of students. Every few years this friend visits America to meet with Mr. Maienza because they have known each other since high school._

so as it turns out, I was mistaken when I thought this friend was a member of the family; he isn't. He was trained in one of the off shoot branches that goes back to the original family, but this firend does not have a connection to the Bujinkan and teaches only Kukishin.


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