# The Sai



## Xue Sheng

I am a CMA guy but I have to admit I have always wanted to learn the Sai I even went out a bought a set a few years back but I have never got beyond the thrust Block. 

I came across this and just wanted to post it out of nostalgia for something I always wanted to learn

The Sai.


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## Flying Crane

I'm in the same boat.  I bought a pair when I was a kid, years before I ever had any formal martial arts training.  I bought Fumio Demura's book as well.  All I ever figured out was how to flip it back and forth, and that I could punch or strike or stab or block or elbow with it, but not really HOW to do it effectively.

I would also like to learn a bit more about it, if the opportunity arises.  I still have that pair, a pretty hefty set compared to some I'm seeing nowadays.  Seems like everyone is going with the lighter weaponry ala "wushu" these days.  Good for speed in performance and competition, but not good for realistic training.  Personally, I stopped playing with toy weapons when I was about 12.  Then I started playing with real weapons.

My sifu told me he learned a sai kata once, Okinawan, not Chinese (I have seen this weapon contained in Chinese curriculum as well).  Maybe I can get him to brush up on his memory and teach it to me.


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## Sukerkin

You chaps are not alone in this wish for some 'proper' training with the sai.  I've hinted at it with my sensei (along with bo) but to no avail so far.

I do believe that it is considered to be something of a violin in the weapon world i.e. very hard to use well but that's part of the attraction.


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## grydth

My oldest daughter's a red belt and began learning them several months ago.... its a little frightening to watch one's "little girl" learn a form that fast and appear so formidable wielding them. Not really 'swords' per se, but very formidable. Can actually be used against a katana.

While she practices sai, I myself got to do a couple hours of bokken work on Sunday - a friend is testing for Shodan in Iaido in a month or two and needed a volunteer for the 2 person forms. His girlfriend expressed the unfounded belief that I would kill him during training....


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## Doc_Jude

My teacher is starting to teach us some sai (tjabang, siku-siku, etc) work. Apparently his teacher Rudy Terlinden loved the Sai, he said they were the Swiss Army Knife of martial arts weapons, considering the different ways of holding them and the different applications. Of course, he was coming from a pretty varied martial background.


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## Xue Sheng

I have liked the sai since before my TKD days and I finally bought a set after I started training CMA and other than a video made by a gentleman form Okinawa whose name I cannot remember (I need to see if I still have that tape) I have never trained the Sai. But I remember that video had some pretty "interesting training" one of which was pushups holding the Sai. I tried doing them but they were fairly painful and I started to think push to high and just one slip and you could get a sai in the shoulder so I stopped. 



Flying Crane said:


> I'm in the same boat. I bought a pair when I was a kid, years before I ever had any formal martial arts training. I bought Fumio Demura's book as well. All I ever figured out was how to flip it back and forth, and that I could punch or strike or stab or block or elbow with it, but not really HOW to do it effectively.
> 
> I would also like to learn a bit more about it, if the opportunity arises. I still have that pair, a pretty hefty set compared to some I'm seeing nowadays. Seems like everyone is going with the lighter weaponry ala "wushu" these days. Good for speed in performance and competition, but not good for realistic training. Personally, I stopped playing with toy weapons when I was about 12. Then I started playing with real weapons.
> 
> My sifu told me he learned a sai kata once, Okinawan, not Chinese (I have seen this weapon contained in Chinese curriculum as well). Maybe I can get him to brush up on his memory and teach it to me.


 
The set I got is rather old now and pretty hefty as well. I know I can put them though a board like in the video I linked... Not that I ever tried it mind you :uhyeah:

There is a CHINESE form with the sai :eye-popping: Where, what style, I gots ta know.


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## tellner

The cabang is used a bit differently than the sai and has much different proportions. I've tried doing cabang technique with a sai and have run into problems.


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## Doc_Jude

tellner said:


> The cabang is used a bit differently than the sai and has much different proportions. I've tried doing cabang technique with a sai and have run into problems.



I presume you're referring to the tjabang with with the LARGE fork and the blade-like central prong?


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## tellner

Not necessarily. Even the one with the blunt central tine is a bit wider across the crosspiece which allows some different maneuvers.


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## Grenadier

The sai is a beautiful weapon, and it's not too difficult to gain decent proficiency with them.  

There are some things you have to watch for, though...  

1) Find a competent kobudo / kobujutsu instructor, who can teach you the proper basics and mechanics.  

2) Make sure that you have a decent pair of sai.  It may sound depressing, but the vast majority of people who own sai, have a pair of junk sai that were purchased from Century Sports, AWMA, etc.  These are heavy, unbalanced, and if you practice techniques with junk sai, then your technique will be less than ideal.  

To make things worse, the use of those overweight, unbalanced sai, is going to rub your hands raw, while generating a lot of fatigue, further contributing to improper technique.  

I know that the cost is going to discourage some folks, but a decent pair of sai is going to cost you about $150 or more.  There are plenty of excellent sai makers (Worbington, Shureido, Agena, etc) who can put out a really nice pair for you.  Think of it this way; each time you buy a pair of junk sai, you're probably going to be throwing away 30-40 bucks.  

3) Make sure that your pair of sai fit you.  Again, talk to a competent kobudo instructor about this.  

Seeing people trying to work the sai with an ill-fitting pair is pretty painful, and seeing the looks of frustration on their faces is even more so.  




Our system has been fortunate, that we're able to bring in Shihan Toshihiro Oshiro once every two years, and he conducts some fantastic clinics in the art of Yamanni Chinen Ryu.


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## Xue Sheng

Grenadier said:


> The sai is a beautiful weapon, and it's not too difficult to gain decent proficiency with them.
> 
> There are some things you have to watch for, though...
> 
> 1) Find a competent kobudo / kobujutsu instructor, who can teach you the proper basics and mechanics.
> 
> 2) Make sure that you have a decent pair of sai. It may sound depressing, but the vast majority of people who own sai, have a pair of junk sai that were purchased from Century Sports, AWMA, etc. These are heavy, unbalanced, and if you practice techniques with junk sai, then your technique will be less than ideal.
> 
> To make things worse, the use of those overweight, unbalanced sai, is going to rub your hands raw, while generating a lot of fatigue, further contributing to improper technique.
> 
> I know that the cost is going to discourage some folks, but a decent pair of sai is going to cost you about $150 or more. There are plenty of excellent sai makers (Worbington, Shureido, Agena, etc) who can put out a really nice pair for you. Think of it this way; each time you buy a pair of junk sai, you're probably going to be throwing away 30-40 bucks.
> 
> 3) Make sure that your pair of sai fit you. Again, talk to a competent kobudo instructor about this.
> 
> Seeing people trying to work the sai with an ill-fitting pair is pretty painful, and seeing the looks of frustration on their faces is even more so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our system has been fortunate, that we're able to bring in Shihan Toshihiro Oshiro once every two years, and he conducts some fantastic clinics in the art of Yamanni Chinen Ryu.


\

Thank You for the information :asian:


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## Doc_Jude

tellner said:


> Not necessarily. Even the one with the blunt central tine is a bit wider across the crosspiece which allows some different maneuvers.



Okay, I gotcha. I agree, the wide tines really allow for a lot more maneuverability. BTW, we're looking at having some made but do you know where we could get some? Thanx


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> There is a CHINESE form with the sai :eye-popping: Where, what style, I gots ta know.


 
I don't know, I just remember seeing it in the context of the Green Dragon Kung Fu studios in Ohio, under Sifu John Allen.  If you remember, they used to advertise in Inside Kung Fu, with a huge line of video instruction.  I have no idea if they are any good, but that's where I saw it.  For all I know, they may no longer be around, I haven't seen their advertisement in years.

In my short tenure with the Shaolin-Do crowd, I was also aware of it there.  Again, this is a fairly controversial crowd and I'm not endorsing it one way or the other, but that's another place where I've been aware of it.

My current sifu has also acknowledged that it is included in some Chinese methods.  It might have been borrowed back from Okinawa, or might have developed independently, I don't know.  It would be interesting to get that background info.


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## Flying Crane

Grenadier said:


> 2) Make sure that you have a decent pair of sai. It may sound depressing, but the vast majority of people who own sai, have a pair of junk sai that were purchased from Century Sports, AWMA, etc. These are heavy, unbalanced, and if you practice techniques with junk sai, then your technique will be less than ideal.
> 
> To make things worse, the use of those overweight, unbalanced sai, is going to rub your hands raw, while generating a lot of fatigue, further contributing to improper technique.


 
Could you give some guidelines to figure out if my pair are any good?  I did get them from AWMA, back in about 1982 or so.  They are pretty heavy and solid, but I don't know what to look for to determine if they are poorly balanced or not, or other issues to be aware of.  I guess I have always figured that a real weapon, meant to stand up to the rigors of real combat against other real weapons, needed to be somewhat hefty.  Of course it's possible to overdue it, but nonetheless, I figured with something like this, a bit heavier is better than too light.

I see sai for sale here in San Francisco Chinatown, and I get the feeling they are also pretty poor quality.  The first thing that strikes me is they are very lightweight, at least compared to mine.  They just feel rather "insubstantial", for lack of a better term.  

We've discussed the value of quality weaponry in the past, and I am defintely willing to spend decent money on something that I know is superior.  If I actually get the chance to learn some legitimate sai methods, I would certainly consider spending the money for something good.


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## Grenadier

Flying Crane said:


> I see sai for sale here in San Francisco Chinatown, and I get the feeling they are also pretty poor quality. The first thing that strikes me is they are very lightweight, at least compared to mine. They just feel rather "insubstantial", for lack of a better term.


 
Those are either aluminum alloy sai, or the generic "demo" sai, that have a thinner shaft, but are still unbalanced.  Stay away from them.  

In the end, the weight of the sai isn't quite as important as the balance of them, since an unequal weight distribution is going to force you to compensate with a different set of mechanics.  You can actually use the same set of mechanics for a light or a heavy pair of sai, as long as the balance is there.  

My primary pair of sai are custom works from Worbington Steele, and while they use the 1/2" shaft, and have a good bit of heft to them, I find that I'm actually less tired after using them for an hour, than I am using one of a pair of Pro Force demo sai, even though the Pro Force sai are significantly lighter.  



> We've discussed the value of quality weaponry in the past, and I am defintely willing to spend decent money on something that I know is superior. If I actually get the chance to learn some legitimate sai methods, I would certainly consider spending the money for something good.


 
I've sent you some info, regarding these.  I generally steer people to either Shureido, Agena, or Worbington Steele.


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## Xue Sheng

This may be a REAL silly question

But where should the point of balance be?

The Sai I have are about 15 years old and I do not remeber where I got them from but they seemed fairly well balanced, but I do not know much about the Sai, certainly not as much as I would like too

However I am certain they did not come form Worbington, Shureido, or Agena


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## harleyt26

I am not familiar with Worbington sai but I have several sets of Shureido, Agena and Tokaido.They are all very good sai,the Shureido has the heavier end at the handle as does Tokaido.They flip back to the arm easier.The Agena sai are heavier at the blade end.They strike out harder from the arm.I do not think the Tokaido are still available at least I cannot find them anywhere.But they are weighted like the Shureido but with a wider Japnese style side tines compared to the narrower tines on the Okinawan style Shureido or Agena.These are all made from either steel,black in color,or stainless steel,very shiny similar to chrome.The cheaper sai are usually chrome plated and cast from pot metal.The chrome can flake and peel leaving razor sharp edges of chrome exposed on the sai from weapon to weapon contact.The pot metal can shatter into sharp shards on hard weapon to weapon contact.Not safe for training only for display.
Tom Hodges


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## Grenadier

Xue,

To me, the balance point should be where the center of rotation is, when you flip the sai out and back.  There should be no need to rotate the forearm at the beginning of the flipping motions.  The arm should be moving outwards in a simple motion, as if someone were doing a knife hand strike when flipping the sai out, and almost as if someone were doing a ridge hand strike towards his own body, when flipping the sai back.  


Now, there are probably some folks who won't agree with my assessment; that's perfectly fine, since the old adage of "different strokes for different folks" can certainly apply.  Some people might consider a "balanced" sai to be one that works for their techniques. 

Some people prefer a shaft-heavy pair, since they want more momentum in their shaft strikes, while others may prefer a handle-heavy pair for various reasons.  I've tried the shaft-heavy and handle-heavy sai in the past, and ended up with sore hands, as well as altering my technique (which I didn't want to do) in order to fit the sai.  They simply don't fit in with the mechanics that I use.  One man's food, after all, can easily be another man's poison!


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## Xue Sheng

Grenadier said:


> Xue,
> 
> To me, the balance point should be where the center of rotation is, when you flip the sai out and back. There should be no need to rotate the forearm at the beginning of the flipping motions. The arm should be moving outwards in a simple motion, as if someone were doing a knife hand strike when flipping the sai out, and almost as if someone were doing a ridge hand strike towards his own body, when flipping the sai back.
> 
> 
> Now, there are probably some folks who won't agree with my assessment; that's perfectly fine, since the old adage of "different strokes for different folks" can certainly apply. Some people might consider a "balanced" sai to be one that works for their techniques.
> 
> Some people prefer a shaft-heavy pair, since they want more momentum in their shaft strikes, while others may prefer a handle-heavy pair for various reasons. I've tried the shaft-heavy and handle-heavy sai in the past, and ended up with sore hands, as well as altering my technique (which I didn't want to do) in order to fit the sai. They simply don't fit in with the mechanics that I use. One man's food, after all, can easily be another man's poison!


 

Thanks You, I will have to check the pair I have and see. I suspect they are not high quality but I do know they will not break when thrown at and going through a board :EG:


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## Xue Sheng

I found the old VHS video I bought and it is the same guy (Sai History) as the first link and this is the training bit I was talking about from the Video that made me a bit nervous Sai exercise

It has been ahwile sense I watched this video, I forgot this history bit was on it

EDIT

oops, I forgot to add his name

Mikio Nishiuchi


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## masherdong

> There is a CHINESE form with the sai  Where, what style, I gots ta know.



I am currently learning the double sai in our school.  My sifu said that this sai form is a Wah Lum form from when he was training with Sifu Wallace Cupp.


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## masherdong

The sais that I have are about as old as the one that Flying Crane has.  Mine are the one with the tan grips that are octagonal.  Very heavy.


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## Flying Crane

masherdong said:


> The sais that I have are about as old as the one that Flying Crane has. Mine are the one with the tan grips that are octagonal. Very heavy.


 

I've got the all-black octagonals, with black leather grip wraps.  Asian World of Martial Arts?


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## Xue Sheng

masherdong said:


> I am currently learning the double sai in our school. My sifu said that this sai form is a Wah Lum form from when he was training with Sifu Wallace Cupp.


 

COOL

Thanks


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## masherdong

> I've got the all-black octagonals, with black leather grip wraps. Asian World of Martial Arts?



Yes sir!  AWMA back in da day!


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## Fiendlover

my favorite weapon is the sai.  there was a form called sai wansu that i was going to learn when i graduated to my next level which was blue belt.  but when i became blue they took it out and put it as 2nd degree black belt level.  i was so mad that i told my sensei that i wanted privates to learn this form and he agreed.  i agree completely that it shouldve been a 2nd degree black belt level in the first place cuz it was difficult but i learned it and competed with it in tournaments and hav gotten good marks.  
how to use the sai was basically simple but very effective especially against the katana (which it was orginally used for).  for a sai to fit u, it has to be the length from ur middle finger to ur elbow joint and it needs to be equally balanced as someone said b4.


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## masherdong

> I found the old VHS video I bought and it is the same guy (Sai History) as the first link and this is the training bit I was talking about from the Video that made me a bit nervous Sai exercise
> 
> It has been ahwile sense I watched this video, I forgot this history bit was on it
> 
> EDIT
> 
> oops, I forgot to add his name
> 
> Mikio Nishiuchi




Based off of what this guy said in the exercise and handling vid, The sai that I have are for throwing (he displays the sais that I have) and that I should avoid practicing with those type of sai.


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## Grenadier

My new pair of sai from Phil Worbington arrived last week, and I've had some time to evaluate them.  

My first pair had been made by Phil Worbington from the 1/2" steel, and have been wonderful for me throughout the last year.  Unfortunately, I realized that after training for 2.5+ hours in a couple of sai clinics earlier this month, that I'm not exactly 18 years old anymore, and that the muscles don't recover from such training nearly as quickly as they did before.  That, plus the old tennis elbow started creeping back.  

So, I had a new pair made by the same fellow, although this time, using 7/16" steel instead of 1/2" steel.  While a 1/16" difference may not seem significant, keep in mind, that geometrics will dictate that the reduction of the width in this case, results in a 23.4375% in weight, making a significant difference in flipping speeds.  After all, volumes are calculated according to the square of the radius...

The quality is still the same, and the balance is perfect, since these sai were made for my arm and hand dimensions.  Durability looks to be pretty darn good, although these aren't going to be used for sai vs bo demonstrations (I'll use the 1/2" pair for that, since they've been tested already).  

Still, for daily training, and for extended sessions, I can already feel a difference between the two.  My elbow no longer aches, and I'm getting a significantly faster recovery speed when flipping the sai out and back, which certainly helps in kata.  I had thought that I was already getting some nice speeds with my 1/2" pair (due to the better balance, compared to the clunkers from Century), but these are even nicer.  

If anything, the only things that ache are the larger muscles, from regular training, so I'll take that as a good sign of things.  

I'll have some pics put up later, but basically, they look very similar to the ones that he has listed here:

http://worbingtonsteele.com/images/7-2006_061.jpg

Overall, a very worthwhile purchase.  These feel even better than my old Shureido "natural" sai (that were stolen from me a long time ago), and the customizations that are done make this truly something for the individual.


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## masherdong

So, how much did it cost?


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## Grenadier

masherdong said:


> So, how much did it cost?


 
$200 + shipping for the pair.  While it's certainly a good chunk of change, keep in mind, that comparable sai from Shureido (the stainless ones) or Agena, are going to cost $300+.


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## masherdong

> $200 + shipping for the pair. While it's certainly a good chunk of change, keep in mind, that comparable sai from Shureido (the stainless ones) or Agena, are going to cost $300+.



WOW!!  That is a good chunk but I guess you get what you pay for.  Thanks.


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## TallAdam85

http://www.weaponsconnection.com/weapon_images/s_sait6.jpg
http://www.weaponsconnection.com/

I have a  pair from them have had them for 5 years like brand new willing to sell them for 150 if u would want them?


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## masherdong

> http://www.weaponsconnection.com/wea...es/s_sait6.jpg
> http://www.weaponsconnection.com/
> 
> I have a pair from them have had them for 5 years like brand new willing to sell them for 150 if u would want them?



I appreciate the offer, but, I think anything over a $100 is way out of my budget.  I guess I will just stick with what I have.


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## Grenadier

TallAdam85 said:


> http://www.weaponsconnection.com/weapon_images/s_sait6.jpg
> http://www.weaponsconnection.com/
> 
> I have a pair from them have had them for 5 years like brand new willing to sell them for 150 if u would want them?


 
Dang...  Now that's a phenomenal deal indeed, considering how much these babies normally go for.  

What are the lengths?  I'm sure that someone here would be interested.


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## TallAdam85

ENERGY SAI OF AGENA they got purple hand rap 150 plus shipping 201/2 Inchs total


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## Ironcrane

I also have a pair of sai. I found them to be a hard weapon to work with, as they had absolutely no rhythm. I've only seen a couple of forums for them, and they were either just step, flip, and stab, over, and over, or something resembling baton twirling.
It wasn't until I got to spar with them, that they made sense to me.


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## Grenadier

Ironcrane said:


> I also have a pair of sai. I found them to be a hard weapon to work with, as they had absolutely no rhythm. I've only seen a couple of forums for them, and they were either just step, flip, and stab, over, and over, or something resembling baton twirling.
> It wasn't until I got to spar with them, that they made sense to me.


 
Sorry to hear about that...  With a good set of sai and proper mechanics, the sai should flow seamlessly from one technique to another.  

It's more of a matter of finding good instruction on using them with good mechanics, and from there, developing flow.  Without proper instruction, the mechanics are probably not going to be well-developed.  

While there are some exceptions to the above (Yamanni Ryu's Oshiro Sensei has an interesting story about this matter), most folks are going to need good, live instruction in a dedicated kobudo system.  

When I first started out with my Karate training decades ago, my first teacher taught us how to use sai, but the techniques were limited.  The kata that we learned were nothing more than empty hand Shotokan kata, with sai in hand(s), with some flips, blocks, and strikes, replacing punches, blocks, and other strikes as well.  

Trying to get any kind of flow from this method was difficult, at best.  Using a pair of generic junk sai didn't make things any easier.  

It wasn't a waste of time, though, since I did build up some coordination, and endurance working with these sai.  However, when I started training in a dedicated kobudo system, and not one based off a modified empty hand system, I had to unlearn quite a few mechanics.  Sometimes, that can be even more difficult than learning from scratch.  

In the end, it's important to find good, live, dedicated instruction, just as we would do so with any serious martial arts training.  Dare I say, that the system you choose isn't so much of an issue, since the "big three" systems of Yamanni Chinen Ryu, Matayoshi Kobudo, and Ryu Kyu Kobudo, can all offer sound instruction.  There are other systems as well, although I don't know about them in any real detail.


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## stickarts

I was given a pair of very old Sai's that someone used to compete with in the early 80's. She stopped competing and gave them to me. They are silver with engraved dragons and seem to be of sturdier make then much of what you see today. I have two Sai forms that I practice and I enjoy doing them. There hasn't been very many students that have requested to learn them over the years, however, the few students that have learned them trained hard at it and really have enjoyed it. Learning Sai is a required part of our weapons program. Most students find them tricky to use at first but do well once they nail down the first form. I feel fortunate to have had a good weapons instructor. There seem to be fewer and fewer people teaching the older weapons nowadays. I wasn't interested in the Sai in my early training since I didn't deem it as being very practical, however, I find now that not all of my training has to be practical. There is a lot of value in doing it for the fun of it!


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## jks9199

stickarts said:


> I wasn't interested in the Sai in my early training since I didn't deem it as being very practical, however, I find now that not all of my training has to be practical. There is a lot of value in doing it for the fun of it!



This is a great point!  One of the key differences between LE Defensive Tactics or self defense classes and martial arts training is that, in martial arts training, we do things that may not be directly tied to being practical.

There's nothing wrong in working with a particular weapon or skill just 'cause it's "cool" or fun to do!


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## stickarts

jks9199 said:


> This is a great point! One of the key differences between LE Defensive Tactics or self defense classes and martial arts training is that, in martial arts training, we do things that may not be directly tied to being practical.
> 
> There's nothing wrong in working with a particular weapon or skill just 'cause it's "cool" or fun to do!


 
I agree. We are learning many moves that are probable, but also moves that are possible (although they all may not be the MOST practical.) I have certain core material that I always practice that I think is the most important and practical, and then I also have play time.


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