# Chi Sao with Sifu



## futsaowingchun (Nov 18, 2016)

Here is a rare video of me and my Sifu doing some light Chi Sao when I came to visit him about 5 years ago.. Notice we are not using the Ip Man Luk sao or poon sao rolling platform .  this is a free flowing based more on pressure or pressing..This is one of the platforms we train in besides the Luk Sao..


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## geezer (Nov 18, 2016)

Although we typically train in the characteristic YM rolling "tan-bong"  poon-sau, sometimes we use a similar "platform" called woon sau in our branch. Ultimately one can flow into the other. I like the variety!


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 18, 2016)

I never heard of woon sao...what does that translate to?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 18, 2016)

Just wonder why

- wrist grabbing, and
- avoid arms contact, 

are not part of the training?


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## Juany118 (Nov 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just wonder why
> 
> - wrist grabbing, and
> - avoid arms contact,
> ...


If it's like my school, it is about flow.  To really fight, and win, you have to be able to flow, especially when your opponent is stronger.  They expand, you contract.  They contract, you expand.  If you can do that then it isn't a matter of creating openings to attack through, you see your opponent creates them and then you simply exploit them.  Every so often my Sifu will have what he calls "soft days" where he has us focus on stuff like this. It can feel like he has us doing a Wing Chun variation of Tai Chi Chuan push hands but it works.  I don't have videos of us doing it but picture using a Wing Chun body structure vs the Tai Chi Chuan structure in the following video.  Due to the narrower stance of WC, to make it work with WC you have to incorporate footwork into the flow but the feel is the same... Flow, be relaxed, never meet force with force.  






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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> it is about flow.


The normal situation is both you and your opponent are willing to build that bridge. The extreme situations are:

- You want to establish that bridge but your opponent doesn't want to.
- Your opponent wants to establish that bridge but you don't want to.

IMO, you should train both "normal situation" along with "extreme situations".


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## LFJ (Nov 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, you should train both "normal situation" along with "extreme situations".



The "extreme situations" are likely the only one's that are going to happen in a fight. And neither will successfully establish such contact if the other doesn't want to.

Lots of staring at the hands and following them around in that video. No focus on hitting at all. It's not YMVT, so I don't know what they are actually doing it for, though.


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## Juany118 (Nov 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The normal situation is both you and your opponent are willing to build that bridge. The extreme situations are:
> 
> - You want to establish that bridge but your opponent doesn't want to.
> - Your opponent wants to establish that bridge but you don't want to.
> ...



You are correct. The point of the drill is to train the idea that when you meet opposition you need to flow with it.  You can't simply walk through a wall.  There are times where your skill and/or strength let you pierce it.  There are also times however were you have to go around the wall.  In a real fight you don't have time to think about it there is only time to react.  Drills like the Op noted and chi sau simply allow you to cultivate the sensitivity and ability to flow so you can transition to whichever one is appropriate at the time.  

The video I linked is an example of "picture perfect" push hands by the way.  Both evenly matched so neither gains an advantage.  In real push hands it get a bit more "active.". The point is to realize that one needs to be relaxed and flow in order to properly attack or defend.

Long story short the drills, at least in my school, are to help teach the "yin". To much yang (aggressive, striking) without adequate yin (passive flow) will get you hurt or killed.  


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just wonder why
> 
> - wrist grabbing, and
> - avoid arms contact,
> ...



There is no wrist grabbing in the video .  we are doing chi sao which is about bridge contact .


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## wckf92 (Nov 19, 2016)

geezer said:


> Although we typically train in the characteristic YM rolling "tan-bong"  poon-sau, sometimes we use a similar "platform" called woon sau in our branch. Ultimately one can flow into the other. I like the variety!



Woon?


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## wckf92 (Nov 19, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Lots of staring at the hands and following them around in that video.



Yeah I caught that as well. Definitely a departure from the 'norm'. 
Wonder what purpose it serves...


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## Juany118 (Nov 19, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> There is no wrist grabbing in the video .  we are doing chi sao which is about bridge contact .



The problem is some people think such drills must by definition lead eventually to an attempt to grab and/or strike.


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## wckf92 (Nov 19, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> There is no wrist grabbing in the video



:21
your sifu's right hand grabs your left wrist.


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## Nobody Important (Nov 19, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Woon?








*Coon





Woon

    *


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## wckf92 (Nov 19, 2016)

Nobody Important said:


> *Coon
> 
> 
> 
> ...




bahahahahahahahahahaha


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> There is no wrist grabbing in the video.  we are doing chi sao which is about bridge contact .


Here are 2 examples.

Example 1:

- You use left arm downward parry (clockwise from your side) intend to establish a bridge.
- Before your left arm can make a contact on your opponent's right arm, his right arm rotate the same direction (clockwise from your side) and hook punch to the left side of your head.

Example 2:

- Your opponent uses right hand to grab on your left wrist.
- You rotate your left arm against his thumb to break apart his wrist grabbing.

Since example 1 may happen more often than a successful bridge building. Also even if you don't like to grab, you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you as in example 2.

My question is if you don't train both situations in Chi Shou, when will you train that? Most Taiji guys have ignored these 2 situations and I don't understand the reason behind it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 19, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> There is no wrist grabbing in the video .  we are doing chi sao which is about bridge contact .


WC guys like to grab too.


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## Juany118 (Nov 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are 2 examples.
> 
> Example 1:
> 
> ...



Well there are a few things.

Regarding chi sau the main point is to teach you sensitivity.  Sense the structure and positioning of the opponent so that you know where to strike.  That said grabs are not "off limits" but due to this we use more extension on the wrist, especially in the bong sau to minimize the risk of a wrist lock/grab.

In terms of the push hands like drill that is all about training the body.  One of the hardest things, in my experience, for many people coming into WC is the idea of combing a striking art with a relaxed and flowing body.  With most students I see even in SLT they need to be reminded to relax the shoulders.  When they do a bil sau to defend, reminded it can be soft.  Telling then to think of it like spreading butter when you put it out there rather than "slamming" it out there like a Karate block.  So the push hands help to train that relaxation and flow when two people are in contact vs going rigid.


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## geezer (Nov 19, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> I never heard of woon sao...what does that translate to?



_Woon_ or _wun-sau_ refers to the circling changes in _chi-sau_, like _huen-sau._ We also use the term for a circling-hand chi-sau platform similar to what you presented except with smaller movements, keeping the hands closer in towards center --never moving laterally.  The way we train it, the circling movement isn't initiated by the practitioner, it is used in response to circle around pressure from your partner and recover  your attacking line while maintaining forward intent. Chasing hands laterally would be considered a serious error in the drill we do.


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## Juany118 (Nov 19, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> WC guys like to grab too.


Absolutely we do but at the same time that isn't necessarily what Chi-Sau is about.  Chi-Sau has a lot to do with feeling the position and structure of the opponent and then exploit the weaknesses felt.  Might it involve a lap/grab?  Yeah but focusing on grabs misses the point of the drill.

Note: in real fights I am huge on grabs to knee strike etc.  

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## Nobody Important (Nov 20, 2016)

geezer said:


> _Woon_ or _wun-sau_ refers to the circling changes in _chi-sau_, like _huen-sau._ We also use the term for a circling-hand chi-sau platform similar to what you presented except with smaller movements, keeping the hands closer in towards center --never moving laterally.  The way we train it, the circling movement isn't initiated by the practitioner, it is used in response to circle around pressure from your partner and recover  your attacking line while maintaining forward intent. Chasing hands laterally would be considered a serious error in the drill we do.


We have a similar drill in YCW WC. We call it Double Circling Hands. It has aspects of pummeling, it's a key component of Kum Na.


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## Juany118 (Nov 20, 2016)

Nobody Important said:


> We have a similar drill in YCW WC. We call it Double Circling Hands. It has aspects of pummeling, it's a key component of Kum Na.



What I think is interesting is this.  4 different Lineages have both now said they do the same thing, the difference is origin/perspective.  Some have it 100% built it.  I will find out, for the purpose of this conversation if mine is blurred.  I will explain.

My Sifu is the student of, Keith Mazza, the US Rep of William Cheung.  Sifu Keith also teaches Tai Chi Chuan.  So on Monday I am going to ask my Sifu if the push hands we do is built into TWC or something he and Sifu Keith got permission to integrate from GM Cheung.  Both are VERY big on having GM Cheung approve of stuff.  Hell my school teaching WC and Kali in parallel (vs seperate classes) wouldn't exist without his permission.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 20, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> :21
> your sifu's right hand grabs your left wrist.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 20, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> :21
> your sifu's right hand grabs your left wrist.



I watch it over again ..My sifu never grabs my wrist..but even if he did,so what? thats called Lop sao?


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## LFJ (Nov 21, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> wckf92 said:
> 
> 
> > :21
> ...



More like :23~:24. His right hand is clearly fully clasped around your left wrist.

I would not call this _laap-sau_, because it doesn't pull. It in fact doesn't appear to serve any purpose other than perhaps to hold on to your wrist so your arm doesn't go anywhere for a moment.

I would just call that holding.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 21, 2016)

His hand is open its not a hold. like in a fok sao.he is using what we call a hook to control my movement


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## LFJ (Nov 21, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> His hand is open its not a hold. like in a fok sao.he is using what we call a hook to control my movement



His thumb is wrapped around your wrist, man... He's holding on.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2016)

futsaowingchun said:


> His hand is open its not a hold. like in a fok sao.he is using what we call a hook to control my movement


Why don't you like "grabbing"?


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 21, 2016)

LFJ said:


> His thumb is wrapped around your wrist, man... He's holding on.


Just because his thumb is wrap around my wrist does not make it a grab. he is using as a hook not a hold or grab. we do it many ways. his hand is actually open but in a loose  curve. If he where to grab me there I could break his wrist easly and he knows it.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 21, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't you like "grabbing"?


Who said I don't like grapping? I grab all the time .not in that video because it's a drill in flow..


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## LFJ (Nov 21, 2016)

...Oookay then...


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## Vajramusti (Nov 23, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't you like "grabbing"?


--------------------------------------
-Grabbing defeats  the purpose of good lop sao motion.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 23, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------
> -Grabbing defeats  the purpose of good lop sao motion.


I can see grabbing in this clip.


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## Vajramusti (Nov 23, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can see grabbing in this clip.


-----------------------------------
yes he is. But I dont know who he is and what he is trying to do.


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## geezer (Nov 23, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------
> -Grabbing defeats  the purpose of good lop sao motion.



We also do _not_ grab in our "lap-sau" drill, but in some other situations very definitely employ a lap/grab. Isn't this also true in AF WC?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 23, 2016)

2 questions here?

- Even if you may not like to grab but since you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you, do you still need to train how to grab and how to break a grip?

- Do you ever try to pull your opponent into your punch?


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## geezer (Nov 23, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 2 questions here?
> 
> - Even if you may not like to grab but since you can't prevent your opponent from grabbing you, do you still need to train how to grab and how to break a grip?
> 
> - Do you ever try to pull your opponent into your punch?



In the VT I train, we do _not_ pull inwards, towards our bodies, but we do often grab an arm and jolt it downward (jut-sau) disrupting his balance, or use body rotation to yank the opponent sideways off balance, or a sort of push-pull movement to exploit the opponent's reaction -- the kind of stuff commonly found in grappling arts. Such actions are typically used to disrupt our opponent's balance in order to facilitate striking as _WC/VT is a striking art,_ though we do have a few good throws or sweeps too. Even in a striking art, I find there something immensely satisfying about slamming an opponent to the ground. 

Hmmm... maybe I really am a grappler at heart.  Ah "...the road not taken" and all that.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 23, 2016)

geezer said:


> maybe I really am a grappler at heart.


The "grabbing" is the gate to open you into the grappling world.


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## wckf92 (Nov 23, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Do you ever try to pull your opponent into your punch?



"Opposite actions" / yin-yang, pull-push, push-pull...power generation ideas. Strike impact amplification.


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