# What are edged weapon systems that aren't based in dueling and have principles that translate over to real world altercations?



## GreenieMeanie (Aug 1, 2021)

-Applicable in real-world altercations (aren't based in dueling)

-Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting

-Have methods applicable with improvised pointy objects or poor quality blades

All I've been able to come across so far is Piper and Libre.


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## elder999 (Aug 1, 2021)

Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting?
Explain



GreenieMeanie said:


> -Applicable in real-world altercations (aren't based in dueling)
> 
> -Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting
> 
> ...


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 1, 2021)

elder999 said:


> Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting?
> Explain


Don't look to cutting connective tissue or muscle for non-lethal tactics.


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## elder999 (Aug 1, 2021)

O


GreenieMeanie said:


> Don't look to cutting connective tissue or muscle for non-lethal tactics.


Oh, I know what bio mechanical cutting is.......I just don't understand looking for a lack of emphasis on it.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 1, 2021)

elder999 said:


> O
> 
> Oh, I know what bio mechanical cutting is.......I just don't understand looking for a lack of emphasis on it.


Doesn't teach it as a go-to


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## elder999 (Aug 1, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Doesn't teach it as a go-to


Again, one has to question, why?


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## Buka (Aug 1, 2021)

I train AMOK knife. I like it.


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## jks9199 (Aug 1, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> -Applicable in real-world altercations (aren't based in dueling)
> 
> -Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting
> 
> ...


You ask as if you have an answer in mind...

Real knife attacks are direct, simple, and straight forward.  Most of the time, the first clue that there's a knife in the game is the bleeding.  

If you start out facing each other with a knife, it's a form of dueling.


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## frank raud (Aug 3, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> -Applicable in real-world altercations (aren't based in dueling)
> 
> -Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting
> 
> ...


With so many knife systems coming out of countries like the Philippines, Indonesia or South Africa, is there any system that requires a high quality blade?


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## Blindside (Aug 3, 2021)

When you say "biomechanical cutting" are you talking about the tendency in Filipino martial arts to"defang the snake" and similar?  Because if we aren't dueling and I have a knife and you don't, pretty much all that goes out the window, if my goal is to kill you then my goal is to get close, probably trap, control a limb and stab and cut the crap out of you.  Maybe I misunderstand the question.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 3, 2021)

elder999 said:


> Again, one has to question, why?


The specialists I've spent time with tell me that face attacks are more reliable, and translate across edged weapons of varying quality and make.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 3, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> You ask as if you have an answer in mind...
> 
> Real knife attacks are direct, simple, and straight forward.  Most of the time, the first clue that there's a knife in the game is the bleeding.
> 
> If you start out facing each other with a knife, it's a form of dueling.


I'm well aware of the reality of knife attacks. I'm just looking for systems that have already extracted what's pragmatic from traditional systems such as FMA or Silat.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 3, 2021)

frank raud said:


> With so many knife systems coming out of countries like the Philippines, Indonesia or South Africa, is there any system that requires a high quality blade?


I really don't know much about all the specific systems. I've seen a little bit of silat, FMA, Piper, MBC, and Libre.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 3, 2021)

Blindside said:


> When you say "biomechanical cutting" are you talking about the tendency in Filipino martial arts to"defang the snake" and similar?  Because if we aren't dueling and I have a knife and you don't, pretty much all that goes out the window, if my goal is to kill you then my goal is to get close, probably trap, control a limb and stab and cut the crap out of you.  Maybe I misunderstand the question.


I'm just trying to sort the systems available for study, preferable something that's been modified based on modern fighting experiences.


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## frank raud (Aug 3, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I really don't know much about all the specific systems. I've seen a little bit of silat, FMA, Piper, MBC, and Libre.


So, again, do any of those systems require a high quality blade?


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 3, 2021)

frank raud said:


> So, again, do any of those systems require a high quality blade?


FMA and MBC seem to place heavy emphasis on directing limbs into a blade to disable them. It would be harder to do with smaller and less sharp edged weapons.


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## Blindside (Aug 3, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> FMA and MBC seem to place heavy emphasis on directing limbs into a blade to disable them. It would be harder to do with smaller and less sharp edged weapons.


Sure, if you are in a duel, I want to disable your limbs from hitting me because they might be carrying a weapon.  If you aren't "knife fighting" and most real world engagements aren't, then you don't need to do that and you use the knife on more important targets.  And quite frankly most systems aren't showing it publicly because it looks band and also it isn't complicated, it takes no training whatsoever to kill someone with a knife.  I never really understood the appeal of training for killing unarmed people, it is like training to club baby seals.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 3, 2021)

Blindside said:


> Sure, if you are in a duel, I want to disable your limbs from hitting me because they might be carrying a weapon.  If you aren't "knife fighting" and most real world engagements aren't, then you don't need to do that and you use the knife on more important targets.  And quite frankly most systems aren't showing it publicly because it looks band and also it isn't complicated, it takes no training whatsoever to kill someone with a knife.  I never really understood the appeal of training for killing unarmed people, it is like training to club baby seals.


I'm referring to situations where you see the attack coming and have your weapon ready to draw, or already drawn.


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## Blindside (Aug 3, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I'm referring to situations where you see the attack coming and have your weapon ready to draw, or already drawn.


How is that not "dueling?"  Does the other guy know that you have a weapon?  If he doesn't and he treats you as being unarmed there (and he has a clue about using a knife) there is a really good chance of mutual death.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 3, 2021)

Blindside said:


> How is that not "dueling?"  Does the other guy know that you have a weapon?  If he doesn't and he treats you as being unarmed there (and he has a clue about using a knife) there is a really good chance of mutual death.


I'm well aware of that. I'm just diversifying to improve my training and understanding of the threat. Again--I'm looking specifically for systems that are aggressive, don't have tradition to extrapolate from, and whose principles are applicable to pointy objects with or without a proper blade.


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## elder999 (Aug 3, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The specialists I've spent time with tell me that face attacks are more reliable, and translate across edged weapons of varying quality and make.


"Specialists?"


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 3, 2021)

elder999 said:


> "Specialists?


Weapons systems practitioners, people who've applied the stuff in real life and cross-trained.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 3, 2021)

See i would say HEMA is pretty good for weapons but it depends on the treatise/master and what you mean by duel.  As i know some treatises or segements are about judicial duels, so strictly about becoming good in this type of dueling, some use dueling more to mean two people fighting, maybe 3.   I am unsure if any cite muiltiple people or what the wording used is. 

i havent really read a military one to comment on the comparision between the two.    Damn i have to get Meyers treatises i just realised. 

See, even if you fight against muiltiple people if they are spaced out enough you are effectively dueling muiltiple people in succession, and you should aim for something like that against groups in the first place, line them up and knock them down in sequence.


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## jergar (Aug 3, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> -Applicable in real-world altercations (aren't based in dueling)
> 
> -Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting
> 
> ...


Hi all knive fighting systems are based on older systems, say a system was developed at a time before guns. Those techniques would be deadly to say the least because at the time everyone using them were for life or death situations. Humans are very adept at finding out what works and what doesn’t. I have a friend who was a guard at a prison and he told they would find prisoners with a pencil stuck in their neck or other places , it doesn’t matter what it is where there’s a will there’s a way, find a system that suits you and then improvise. I trained with a person who was trained in Japan in ninjitsu he could kill you with a bottle cap if need be. Thanks you got me thinking!


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## BigMotor (Aug 3, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> You ask as if you have an answer in mind...
> 
> Real knife attacks are direct, simple, and straight forward.  Most of the time, the first clue that there's a knife in the game is the bleeding.
> 
> If you start out facing each other with a knife, it's a form of dueling.


Knife attacks are fearful things, and someone can drop dead, right on the spot. I guess everyone knows that by using common sense.

That is something that any knife fighter needs to answer, which is, what will I do to save myself?

I mentioned in another post, that killing is easy; but the fighter needs to know that for himself. In a real fight somebody might die, either you or the other guy. The deadly aspects of it, are as serious as gun fighting, just closer in.

That conundrum is up to the fighter to solve. Because if you underestimate your opponent, he may kill you. So pick the system that teaches defense more than offense, IMHO. Escape and evade.


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## elder999 (Aug 3, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Weapons systems practitioners, people who've applied the stuff in real life and cross-trained.


You mean ex-cons?








GreenieMeanie said:


> Weapons systems practitioners, people who've applied the stuff in real life and cross-trained.


Or special forces?




'Cause it sounds like you mean ex-cons.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 3, 2021)

elder999 said:


> 'Cause it sounds like you mean ex-cons.


I thought your generally done if you stab somone, let alone stab them near to death or to death?      If you dont have a defence for doing so anyway. 

Byt done i mean your not getting out for a while if at all.


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## elder999 (Aug 3, 2021)

Rat said:


> I thought your generally done if you stab somone, let alone stab them near to death or to death?      If you dont have a defence for doing so anyway.
> 
> Byt done i mean your not getting out for a while if at all.


This sounds suspiciously penal:


GreenieMeanie said:


> The specialists I've spent time with tell me that face attacks are more reliable, and translate across edged weapons of varying quality and make.


Play the video of the guard getting shanked (with an "edged weapon of varying quality and make"🤣🙄 ) and listen until the end for his injuries.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 4, 2021)

elder999 said:


> Play the video of the guard getting shanked (with an "edged weapon of varying quality and make"🤣🙄 ) and listen until the end for his injuries.


Youtube has a thing where unless you Id yourself in your account you cant watch age restricted videos anymore.   its not just make an account to watch them anymore, so thats a shame.   (if you wernt aware, not everyone could watch it)


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## elder999 (Aug 4, 2021)

Rat said:


> Youtube has a thing where unless you Id yourself in your account you cant watch age restricted videos anymore.   its not just make an account to watch them anymore, so thats a shame.   (if you wernt aware, not everyone could watch it)


Prisoners in Santa Fe shanking a guard, who was treated for those "effective" face and head wounds.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I'm well aware of the reality of knife attacks. I'm just looking for systems that have already extracted what's pragmatic from traditional systems such as FMA or Silat.


Extracted what is pragmatic?  Maybe context matters.  Meaning: the system provides a foundation and platform on which the techniques actually work.  Maybe the whole system needs to be understood, in order for any/all of it to work the best.  

When people talk about extracting what works and dumping the rest from a system, I become immediately suspicious that they have not studied the method, do not understand it, and have cherry-picked a handful of superficial techniques and tricks based on what they think looks cool.

here is a suggestion:  when it comes to developing a strong understanding/skill level in martial arts, whether it is an armed or unarmed method, there are no shortcuts.  It takes some amount of dedication to the training, to develop a reasonable level of real skill, beyond some superficial tricks.  Context matters, meaning it is the system as a whole that makes it work.


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## Steve (Aug 4, 2021)

Can someone just let me know when this thread is at the point where we can post things that are funny?  I’m dying to make a lightsaber related reference.


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## Steve (Aug 4, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Extracted what is pragmatic?  Maybe context matters.  Meaning: the system provides a foundation and platform on which the techniques actually work.  Maybe the whole system needs to be understood, in order for any/all of it to work the best.
> 
> When people talk about extracting what works and dumping the rest from a system, I become immediately suspicious that they have not studied the method, do not understand it, and have cherry-picked a handful of superficial techniques and tricks based on what they think looks cool.
> 
> here is a suggestion:  when it comes to developing a strong understanding/skill level in martial arts, whether it is an armed or unarmed method, there are no shortcuts.  It takes some amount of dedication to the training, to develop a reasonable level of real skill, beyond some superficial tricks.  Context matters, meaning it is the system as a whole that makes it work.


Kind of.  Every system actually used as a system is an incomplete version of other systems, even if you think it’s not. The act of a person teaching someone else everything ignores all of the tacit knowledge and experience the instructor gained that cannot be directly taught to someone else.  Teachers influence students but at some point the student accumulated unique experience, and the style evolves.

Simply put, you learn what sticks, apply it, learn some more, figure some things out on your own, and so on.  at the very most, you are teaching a mostly complete version of what you were taught.  

So, personally, I’m not too hung up on the idea of cherry picking techniques.  You don’t have to know everything there is to know about BJJ to be a successful MMAist. And what you do choose to focus on may be specifically tailored to your application.  

shoot, you don’t even have to know everything there is to know about BJJ to be successful in BJJ.  There’s a certain rhythm to things where techniques and styles fall out of favor and then a few years later are “rediscovered”.


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## drop bear (Aug 4, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Weapons systems practitioners, people who've applied the stuff in real life and cross-trained.



I think you might be looking at the wrong things. 

And the knife fighting community really isn't very reliable. Which is probably why you are looking at the wrong things.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 5, 2021)

elder999 said:


> You mean ex-cons?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Military and LEO.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Extracted what is pragmatic?  Maybe context matters.  Meaning: the system provides a foundation and platform on which the techniques actually work.  Maybe the whole system needs to be understood, in order for any/all of it to work the best.
> 
> When people talk about extracting what works and dumping the rest from a system, I become immediately suspicious that they have not studied the method, do not understand it, and have cherry-picked a handful of superficial techniques and tricks based on what they think looks cool.
> 
> here is a suggestion:  when it comes to developing a strong understanding/skill level in martial arts, whether it is an armed or unarmed method, there are no shortcuts.  It takes some amount of dedication to the training, to develop a reasonable level of real skill, beyond some superficial tricks.  Context matters, meaning it is the system as a whole that makes it work.


The context is edged weapons of varying quality, about 3 inches long, and their applicability in modern street violence.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 5, 2021)

elder999 said:


> This sounds suspiciously penal:
> 
> Play the video of the guard getting shanked (with an "edged weapon of varying quality and make"🤣🙄 ) and listen until the end for his injuries.


In terms of nonlethal and distancing.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 5, 2021)

Steve said:


> Kind of.  Every system actually used as a system is an incomplete version of other systems, even if you think it’s not. The act of a person teaching someone else everything ignores all of the tacit knowledge and experience the instructor gained that cannot be directly taught to someone else.  Teachers influence students but at some point the student accumulated unique experience, and the style evolves.
> 
> Simply put, you learn what sticks, apply it, learn some more, figure some things out on your own, and so on.  at the very most, you are teaching a mostly complete version of what you were taught.
> 
> ...


BJJ gives you foundation of movement and setting up joint locks/chokes, but the technique, at least in my experience, changes a little bit once self-defense is taken into consideration.

My focus is the current nature of violence, which largely involves ambush tactics, improvised weapons, and edged weapons not much bigger than 3 inches that can be made out of just about anything, and pop knives and spitting razors depending on where you look on the map.

The problem with the old Asian arts in their traditional form, is that you have to spend years with the decorum and original contexts of those systems, until you find what translates over well to now. It's very difficult to find JJ that isn't based in competition and that goes back to its medieval roots, assuming armor and blades. It's also difficult to find FMA that hasn't tossed the dance element, and drops the assumption that you're a farmer wielding field knives, short swords or machetes....at least that has been my experience.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The context is edged weapons of varying quality, about 3 inches long, and their applicability in modern street violence.


I am not confused by that.  Do you understand what I said?


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 5, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I think you might be looking at the wrong things.
> 
> And the knife fighting community really isn't very reliable. Which is probably why you are looking at the wrong things.


The systems I've spent the most time with are Libre and Piper.

Libre is largely influenced by the feedback of military and law enforcement in 3rd world countries, especially in places where criminals do not give a ___ and are well armed. One of the practioners I've met is a guy who served, that's successfully used it in life or death situations on mutiple occasions.

Piper is the codification of how street gangs use edged weapons in SA. It's basically the bastard child of Silat and the Numbers gangs.


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I am not confused by that.  Do you understand what I said?


"The problem with the old Asian arts in their traditional form, is that you have to spend years with the decorum and original contexts of those systems, until you find what translates over well to now. It's very difficult to find JJ that isn't based in competition and that goes back to its medieval roots, assuming armor and blades. It's also difficult to find FMA that hasn't tossed the dance element, and drops the assumption that you're a farmer wielding field knives, short swords or machetes....at least that has been my experience."


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> "The problem with the old Asian arts in their traditional form, is that you have to spend years with the decorum and original contexts of those systems, until you find what translates over well to now. It's very difficult to find JJ that isn't based in competition and that goes back to its medieval roots, assuming armor and blades. It's also difficult to find FMA that hasn't tossed the dance element, and drops the assumption that you're a farmer wielding field knives, short swords or machetes....at least that has been my experience."


That hasn’t been my experience.


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## elder999 (Aug 5, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Military and LEO.


American military and....🤣🤣🤣🤣........LEO?


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 5, 2021)

elder999 said:


> American military and....🤣🤣🤣🤣........LEO?


Not specifically American.


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## frank raud (Aug 6, 2021)

Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison: Pentecost, Don: 9781626545045: Amazon.com: Books
					

Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison [Pentecost, Don] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison



					www.amazon.com


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## elder999 (Aug 6, 2021)

Y


frank raud said:


> Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison: Pentecost, Don: 9781626545045: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> 
> Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison [Pentecost, Don] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison
> ...


I was getting there, Frank...


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 7, 2021)

frank raud said:


> Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison: Pentecost, Don: 9781626545045: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> 
> Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison [Pentecost, Don] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison
> ...


Is that actually any good or based in reality?  I brought it a while back but never really read it.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 7, 2021)

Rat said:


> Is that actually any good or based in reality?  I brought it a while back but never really read it.


I think it'd be right up your alley.
🤣


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## frank raud (Aug 8, 2021)

Rat said:


> Is that actually any good or based in reality?  I brought it a while back but never really read it.


If you own it, why don't you try reading it? Or would that be too close to actually training for you?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 8, 2021)

frank raud said:


> If you own it, why don't you try reading it? Or would that be too close to actually training for you?


Im askign to see if its worth fishing it out or not, its only a tiny book.    Plus thats not really answering the question.


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## frank raud (Aug 8, 2021)

Rat said:


> Im askign to see if its worth fishing it out or not, its only a tiny book.    Plus thats not really answering the question.


Why did you buy it, if not to read it?


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## GreenieMeanie (Aug 10, 2021)

Rat said:


> Is that actually any good or based in reality?  I brought it a while back but never really read it.


It's based in reality, but it's more of a primer. It's like "here's some info on how criminals use knives to ambush and kill each other." Based on the responses I'm getting to this, it would seem you guys don't know much more than I do...which isn't bad. The fact that none of you seem to have heard of Piper or Libre is a little surprising to me.


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## Blindside (Aug 10, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> It's based in reality, but it's more of a primer. It's like "here's some info on how criminals use knives to ambush and kill each other." Based on the responses I'm getting to this, it would seem you guys don't know much more than I do...which isn't bad. The fact that none of you seem to have heard of Piper or Libre is a little surprising to me.


You mentioned it your opening post, so I didn't mention them.  I have a couple, actually more than a couple of friends in my extended network who train them and they all have good things to say about them.


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## Holmejr (Aug 11, 2021)

GreenieMeanie said:


> -Applicable in real-world altercations (aren't based in dueling)
> 
> -Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting
> 
> ...


I believe the method I currently study falls into this category. It’s a modified version of escrima. We call it Eskrido de Alcuizar. GM Alcuizar set out to create a straight forward, modern self defense method. Not dueling based, no weapon chasing, but direct attract based. We practice in Orange County, CA under Ron Manrique.


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## Holmejr (Aug 11, 2021)

BigMotor said:


> Knife attacks are fearful things, and someone can drop dead, right on the spot. I guess everyone knows that by using common sense.
> 
> That is something that any knife fighter needs to answer, which is, what will I do to save myself?
> 
> ...


Nicely worded. We stay away from dueling. When we do goof around with dueling, everybody ends up with potential life threatening hits. We stay with 3/4 second aggressive defense/destruction/get out scenarios.

Eskrido de Alcuizar
Buena Park, CA


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## BigMotor (Aug 17, 2021)

Holmejr said:


> Nicely worded. We stay away from dueling. When we do goof around with dueling, everybody ends up with potential life threatening hits. We stay with 3/4 second aggressive defense/destruction/get out scenarios.
> 
> Eskrido de Alcuizar
> Buena Park, CA


There is a place for real force, but that is a small area of life, most martial arts are defensive and avoid killing and maiming. Dueling has no place in civilized areas, but being able to put down an attacker, that does have a place.

That place where force is needed is up to the man involved, and he needs to be level headed and hard to shake. Because you never know when it will become a life and death fight.

Most people think that it will never happen to them; but it is happening.
So, it is better to know how to take down a killer, than to remain oblivious.

Big Motor.


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## Saheim (Aug 17, 2021)

Blindside said:


> Sure, if you are in a duel, I want to disable your limbs from hitting me because they might be carrying a weapon.  If you aren't "knife fighting" and most real world engagements aren't, then you don't need to do that and you use the knife on more important targets.  And quite frankly most systems aren't showing it publicly because it looks band and also it isn't complicated, it takes no training whatsoever to kill someone with a knife.  I never really understood the appeal of training for killing unarmed people, it is like training to club baby seals.


Yea, I never understood the whole learning how to take out unarmed folks, with a blade, either....... until I considered the fact there might be 3 of them with the intention of stomping me into a coma so they can keep my wife and daughter. Then suddenly the idea of stabbing unarmed people made a lot of sense.

As far as the bio mechanical cutting vs vital targets - my trainer teaches doing BOTH. Obviously, stopping the atta k is the objective and mass blood loss helps achieve that. So YES carotid artery,  subclavian artery,  femoral, etc are "bullseyes" however, if an arm is coming my way, I'd like to make sure it is damaged before it goes back. I look at  biomechanical cutting as the side dish.


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