# what do you think about this?



## drummingman (Nov 9, 2006)

http://www.realfighting.com/issue8/lettersframe.html
i just read this last night and i am wondering what you guys think about what he says about the things in karate? feel free to go into all your thoughts on what he says.
i don't know the system that he is comparing karate to but if you guys do feel free to go into the differences.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 10, 2006)

*This article is similar to the one posted on the other thread that traditional karate not effective in real self defense.*
*The person that wrote this probably did not experience true traditional karate(Okinawan or Japanese), there are a lot of Japanese karate schools that ephasis the sport aspect so much that the real fighting tactics have been taken out and much of what they teach would be ineffective on the street. Perhaps they did not get to a level of training to learn all of the effective techniques. Focusing on the sport too much does hinder your decision making in a time of confrontation. Being so used to pulling their strikes can make for a fatal mistake. I do believe that you can train in both and make yourself an effective martial artist. Keep an open mind and train,train, train.*


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## drummingman (Nov 10, 2006)

well i notice that he talked about how the way that the karate moves are designed are not the natural way that the body moves.he said that his body would not let him do the moves in a fight on the street.does anyone have any thoughts on this?
im asking this stuff because i really am in a search for what is the most effective type of self defense.i know that a lot of people say that its different for each person but asking these questions is alowing me to narrow it down for myself.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 10, 2006)

*You have to be creative in your efforts in developing your techniques. Look at the movements at different angles and tweak them as needed. Study dynamics and kinematics to scientifically develop your techniques from what you are taught.*


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## kachi (Nov 10, 2006)

You say to study dynamics and kinematics, but I wouldn't have the first clue as where to start and what to look for... could you help me out here please?


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## twendkata71 (Nov 10, 2006)

*Your dynamics of motion,how each movement works, what muscles come into play, start to finish of the motion. Kinematics is the study of motion and the energy used in that motion. *
*You can go to www.ingber.com  scroll down until you get to the books he wrote as releated to karate. He is a physics professor and karate instructor trained at the JKA.   His books help both instructors and students how to improve their karate training by examining the mistakes in movements,stances, and the forces at work. It is really interesting to apply physics to karatedo. I am not good with math, but it somehow makes sense.  If you apply this to your training it will help in the development of your skills. The more precise your karate movements then the more effective your skills. Karate is not just the use of raw power and vague techniques. It is the use of precise strikes and we train to minimalize the mistakes in motion. It is a science.  This is why in Japan and Okinawa the sensei trains the student over and over on each and every  movement. On his web site you can print out the whole book. Both the( karate instructors handbook) and (karate kinematics and dynamics). His books has helped me immensly in my teaching and own personal training.*


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## JasonASmith (Nov 10, 2006)

This is what I think of that article:
:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse


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## Ken (Nov 27, 2006)

This bloke is obviously confusing sport (kumite) with self-defence. Two entirely diferent things. Kumite is usefull for developing reflex response and things like timing, distance, balance, etc., but in self-defence you do not take up a fighting stance and bounce around the room. Traditional Karate teaches you the principals of self-defence. Correct breathing to help remain calm, awareness to read body language and take in your surroundings. He is also confusing strength and weight advantage with power. A karateka should have at least a basic knowledge of weak points of the body, the abillity to relax so as to generate the required speed to produce the power to strike the weak points open to him/her.
any one wishing to contact me 1-2-1 can get my details at www.sanchinryukarate.co.uk


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## pstarr (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm currently in the process of getting my (second) book published and it deals exclusively with principles of physics and basic kinesiology and how they relate to martial arts movement.

In any case, this fellow probably didn't train in a truly traditional school - and/or didn't train adequately or properly.  OF COURSE martial arts movements aren't natural!  That's why we train!

If karate didn't work, it would have died out a long time back...what he really means is that HIS karate doesn't work.  There's a difference.  And he doesn't see it-


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## WyldFya (Nov 27, 2006)

Major thing I saw out of that article was that he generalized karate as all being the same.  Which we all know there is a huge variety out there.  I do think that he is right that several styles of karate are power focused, and are somewhat rigid, and slower.  The rest of the article sounded, to me, that he had a bad experience with shotokan, and that set him off karate in general.  A shame, but there are many arts, and for some karate is just not natural.


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## ISMA girl (Dec 3, 2006)

drummingman said:


> well i notice that he talked about how the way that the karate moves are designed are not the natural way that the body moves.he said that his body would not let him do the moves in a fight on the street.does anyone have any thoughts on this?
> im asking this stuff because i really am in a search for what is the most effective type of self defense.i know that a lot of people say that its different for each person but asking these questions is alowing me to narrow it down for myself.


ok lets use a chest block for example. in karate you practice the move with a closed fist on the street you would probably throw this with an open hand. self defense no matter what, takes great reaction time and awareness.  karate techniques are training methods. they train your body to make movements that they are not use to but these movements are more effective in a defense situation. (than having no training at all)


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## Yeti (Dec 27, 2006)

As mom always says...it's not the art, it's the artist. Sounds like that guy didn't take his training very seriously at all - probably too concerned with rank or with preparing for the next tournament to put any thought into what he learned. Then, when he actually needs to use his training, he's got nothing to fall back on and blames the system. Classic.



pstarr said:


> ...what he really means is that HIS karate doesn't work. There's a difference. And he doesn't see it-


 
Spot on pstarr!

BTW...did anyone else find it odd that he could remember a few calming techniques that he read in some Jim Wagner articles, but couldn't remember any of his training that he'd been doing, probably for years?...


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## twendkata71 (Dec 27, 2006)

Blocks are not really blocks.  They are strikes. You will learn this at the more advanced stages, then it will all make sense. I think that much of this trend to take shots at karate is from the fact that there are so many phonies, Mcdojo's out there in the martial arts community now. This gives the wrong impression. If people took the time to really study karate, then they would realize that it is truely effective as a self protection art.







ISMA girl said:


> ok lets use a chest block for example. in karate you practice the move with a closed fist on the street you would probably throw this with an open hand. self defense no matter what, takes great reaction time and awareness. karate techniques are training methods. they train your body to make movements that they are not use to but these movements are more effective in a defense situation. (than having no training at all)


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## Kacey (Dec 27, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> Blocks are not really blocks.  They are strikes.



This is not limited to Karate; I learned the same thing in TKD.  All blocks are strikes; all strikes are blocks.  How you use a technique determines if it is a strike or a block - if I block your attack at an angle and with a force that breaks a bone, is that really a block, or is it a strike?  If I punch your attack hard enough, and at a sufficient angle, to deflect it, is that an attack?  Calling a technique a block or a strike is a convenient way of placing tools in a particular part of a toolkit when a student is just beginning; more advanced students learn that such distinctions are artificial.


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## terryl965 (Dec 27, 2006)

Kacey said:


> This is not limited to Karate; I learned the same thing in TKD. All blocks are strikes; all strikes are blocks. How you use a technique determines if it is a strike or a block - if I block your attack at an angle and with a force that breaks a bone, is that really a block, or is it a strike? If I punch your attack hard enough, and at a sufficient angle, to deflect it, is that an attack? Calling a technique a block or a strike is a convenient way of placing tools in a particular part of a toolkit when a student is just beginning; more advanced students learn that such distinctions are artificial.


 

Well said Kacey, I could not have said it any better


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## cstanley (Dec 27, 2006)

Well, sometimes a block is, indeed, just a block. Don't try to squeeze too much out. But, it is the understanding of the applications and what came before or after the block that become clear as time goes on. And, yes, many blocks are strikes or grabs.


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## chinto (May 17, 2007)

drummingman said:


> http://www.realfighting.com/issue8/lettersframe.html
> i just read this last night and i am wondering what you guys think about what he says about the things in karate? feel free to go into all your thoughts on what he says.
> i don't know the system that he is comparing karate to but if you guys do feel free to go into the differences.


 

I think the person who wrote this has not seen okinawan or japanese karate that has been tought for self defence. the art was developed to save your life in real combat! ( combat as defined by the winner is the man or woman still alive and breathing when the fight is finished {most usualy in seconds and certianly less then a minute} )  I can understand perhaps a badly tought student of a style that has been optimized for sport use perhaps, but then it would have to have been tought exclusivly for sport turnement use and only for that....  other wise to put it bluntly the person who wrote it does not have a clue about karate.


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## bushidomartialarts (May 17, 2007)

two threads resurrected in the same night for the same reason.  now realfighting.com is one of several websites that try to sell you a self-defense course.  it's the charles atlas of our generation.

what gets me is why people take the ad copy any more seriously than they take any other ad copy.

are there threads on "Burger King:  Do I Really Get It My Way?", or "1001 Things Brown Can Do For Me"?  

no.  

let's ignore the fearmongering and chest thumping of poorly written advertising and get back do discussing the important issues, like whether MMA or TMA is more effective on the street.


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