# Original belt colors



## Kong Soo Do (Oct 5, 2011)

When TKD was first developed as its own martial art, was there a common agreement on number of belts below black belt as well as the color for each of those levels?  Thank you.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 5, 2011)

Mm.

TKD was originally developed for use Militaristically. I am not stating the following as Fact, but assumption, that I may crossreference it with any Findings and other Replies. Im curious now.

Militaristically, Belts would make minimal sense, besides White Belt, and Black Belt.
Therefore, im inclined to assume thats how it Originated. At its Root.


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## RobinTKD (Oct 5, 2011)

From what I've read, though it is by no means the whole truth, I think the belt structure was white belt, brown belt, black belt, and that was it. I may be getting confused with various kwans though.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 5, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> TKD was originally developed for use Militaristically.



I would say this depends on when you believe Taekwondo was originally developed.  For example, considering the Chung Do Kwan as the first major school in Korea (that taught the art we now know as Taekwondo) then it was originally taught to civilians and then some members from the CDK founded the military school (Oh Do Kwan) afterwards.

I would also argue that as it includes (and has included since the beginning) a lot of jumping and spinning kicks then a purely militaristic focus is unlikely (as they would be unlikely to be used on the battlefield).

I say that Taekwondo was primarily developed as a "self-improving martial way" rather than a military art, and as a modern martial way surely other arts and their systems would have been considered during it's development.  Some Judo instructors were using coloured Kyu belts in the 1930s, so I can't imagine in 1955 that Taekwondo would be developed without consideration for this.

Just my opinion though...


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## d1jinx (Oct 5, 2011)

could be folklore or maybe i remember it from another reading, but when TAEKWONDO became TKD (60-70's) with the goal of becoming an olympic sport, the belts were the color of the olympic rings. White, yellow, green, blue, red, black. with a Low/High for each color belt inbetween white and black. equalling 10 total for the 10 Gups.

now each individual school may/has adapted different colors in place of the low high (at least in the US), but the standard WTF recognized is the colors of the OLYMPIC Rings.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 5, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I would say this depends on when you believe Taekwondo was originally developed.  For example, considering the Chung Do Kwan as the first major school in Korea (that taught the art we now know as Taekwondo) then it was originally taught to civilians and then some members from the CDK founded the military school (Oh Do Kwan) afterwards.
> 
> I would also argue that as it includes (and has included since the beginning) a lot of jumping and spinning kicks then a purely militaristic focus is unlikely (as they would be unlikely to be used on the battlefield).
> 
> ...



Dont mind me, its late.

TKD was not exactly founded by One Man.
Each Founder had Variables.
Several (Two or Three that I know of for sure) had a Military Theme.
It was, however, used Militaristically. That much is irrefutable.

In short, I neglected the presense of Multiple Founders, and generalised it to the One im currently familiar with


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 5, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> could be folklore or maybe i remember it from another reading, but when TAEKWONDO became TKD (60-70's) with the goal of becoming an olympic sport, the belts were the color of the olympic rings. White, yellow, green, blue, red, black. with a Low/High for each color belt inbetween white and black. equalling 10 total for the 10 Gups.
> 
> now each individual school may/has adapted different colors in place of the low high (at least in the US), but the standard WTF recognized is the colors of the OLYMPIC Rings.



I don't have any information to add to this thread, however, I can say that our association does have 10 gups, very similar to what jinx talks about:

no uniform=10th gup
white= 9th
yellow=8th
yellow green tip=7th
green= 6th
green brown tip= 5th
brown= 4th
brown red tip= 3rd
red=2nd
blue= 1st


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 6, 2011)

First of all, again, you would need to define what is or was TKD. In this article http://371078645507472465-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/ntkdacad/files/NamTaeHiTKDTimesJan.2000.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cqO4Syizj-gQdpnCInBVj_XaRE0KYss5NjXdu5F_XMdl8paJAYgeu-StmG4BQjpd4DoTBTTsWc06XMikeYZe7b8b2avySJu-ZjeA9MhXp_rjNwEQ9Gcyskho1uVscUaFypfrveWRw8POmwARfXbHxklNR9s6kQEWkY_DehwsTGviYG-P2BOwz_KqX0axJEwhRtWwzpSDAAFSSpWxKJNsq8sdr_Lf0zTDR_1qBIU28rKG5Z6bBU%3D&attredirects=0  GM Nam said the CDK used white brown and black. At one point Glenn took issue with the article saying there was no brown, but red.  I think it may have changed at some point in time. 

General Choi (I think) had the first book on TKD (I think it was publishedin 1959 in Korean, have not seen it) republished in English in 1965 lists White, Blue, Brown and Black)  By the 1973 edition it was white, yellow, green, blue, red, and Black.


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## masterchase (Oct 6, 2011)

My instructor had a brown belt as the highest gup rank in 1964 at Osan Air force base.
I've seen the belt.  It's definitely brown.  I do not know the other colors.    This was a CDK dojang.
The colors he used for us was white, yellow, green, blue and red.    
A single piece of electrical tape the color of the next belt was added to the right side for the odd number gups.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 6, 2011)

In 1965, Jhoon Goo Rhee in the USA used:

10-9 gup = white
8-7 gup  = green
6-5 gup = blue
4-1 gup = brown
Black for all Dan

In 1985 my Hapkido school in Korea:

    9 gup = white (there was only one test from white to yellow, for the rest, there was a test for each gup)
8-7 gup  = yellow
6-5 gup  = blue
4-1 gup  = red
Black all Dan


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## RobinTKD (Oct 6, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> GM Nam said the CDK used white brown and black. At one point Glenn took issue with the article saying there was no brown, but red.  I think it may have changed at some point in time.



I think this is the same as what i read, but not only for the Chung do Kwan, but also for the Moo Duk Kwan.

Edit: Also I'm sure i've seen it in reference to the Oh Do Kwan, arguably the first 'Official' TaeKwon-Do school.


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## msmitht (Oct 7, 2011)

White, yellow, green, red and black. The original belt system, created by jigoro kano to prevent mismatches/injuries in judo, was white, blue, brown and black. For children they used yellow, orange and green. In mdk tkkd the colors were white, yellow, green,blue, red and dark blue(midnight blue).


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## clfsean (Oct 7, 2011)

msmitht said:


> White, yellow, green, red and black. The original belt system, created by jigoro kano to prevent mismatches/injuries in judo, was white, blue, brown and black. For children they used yellow, orange and green. In mdk tkkd the colors were white, yellow, green,blue, red and dark blue(midnight blue).



Wow... white/yellow/green/red/black ... haven't seen those in a while. Most places are a rainbow compared to that system, how I came up.


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## frank raud (Oct 7, 2011)

msmitht said:


> White, yellow, green, red and black. The original belt system, created by jigoro kano to prevent mismatches/injuries in judo, was white, blue, brown and black. For children they used yellow, orange and green. In mdk tkkd the colors were white, yellow, green,blue, red and dark blue(midnight blue).



Do you have a source for the original belts colours in judo being white, blue, brown and black? Always thought it was white,brown and black. The other colours were introduced by the Budokwai, not  just  for children.


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## msmitht (Oct 7, 2011)

I forgot blue was told about judo colors by old sensei when I was young. Ill check wiki...


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## Kong Soo Do (Oct 7, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Do you have a source for the original belts colours in judo being white, blue, brown and black? Always thought it was white,brown and black. The other colours were introduced by the Budokwai, not just for children.



White, brown and black were also my understanding for original Judo belt colors.


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## tkd1964 (Oct 8, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> From what I've read, though it is by no means the whole truth, I think the belt structure was white belt, brown belt, black belt, and that was it. I may be getting confused with various kwans though.



GM Nam Tae Hi said the colors were White Brown and Black with eight gup levels. After, Gen. Choi introduced blue belt and eventually came up with the belt system White, yellow, Green, Blue, Red, And Black. 10 Gup levels and 9 Dan levels. now this is ITF. The KTA may hav had a different setup.


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## puunui (Oct 11, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> GM Nam said the CDK used white brown and black. At one point Glenn took issue with the article saying there was no brown, but red.  I think it may have changed at some point in time.




I don't know if I "took issue" so much as I repeated what GM LEE Won Kuk and GM PARK Hae Man said about the original belt colors of the Chung Do Kwan. They both said that the original belt colors used at the Chung Do Kwan was white, red and black, which were the same belt colors used by the Shotokan pre WWII. White and Red were used because Japan was highly nationalistic at the time and Funakoshi Sensei wanted to show that Karate was or could be an art that was acceptable to the Japanese people. Also, when you add the blue from the name Chung Do Kwan (bluewaves gym) to the white red and black, you get the colors of the Korean flag. During the 1950's, when Taekwondo people were enamored by Karate and wanted as much as possible to copy Karate and/or be a part of the Karate movement, the brown belt was briefly adopted, as were the Karate like long wide stances. This is I believe what GM Nam is talking about, perhaps the original belt colors of the Oh Do Kwan, which very well could have been white brown and black. The Oh Do Kwan was a 50's creation, during Taekwondo's intermediate school fascination with Japanese Karate. This was before Taekwondo's maturation and development into something distinct and apart from Karate.


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## tkd1964 (Oct 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> . This is I believe what GM Nam is talking about, perhaps the original belt colors of the Oh Do Kwan, which very well could have been white brown and black. The Oh Do Kwan was a 50's creation, during Taekwondo's intermediate school fascination with Japanese Karate. This was before Taekwondo's maturation and development into something distinct and apart from Karate.



Yes, Oh Do Kwan was a 50's creation but so was Taekwon-Do at which time Gen. Choi was moving away from Karate. This is evident in the 1965 book. TKD technigues were performed with both arms whether blocking, punching, or striking.  With Karate,in some cases, one hand would perform a technique while the other stays stationary. The stances were no longer long wide stances and knee spring was implimented. Now this only pertains to Taekwon-do under Gen. Choi.


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## dancingalone (Oct 11, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> With Karate,in some cases, one hand would perform a technique while the other stays stationary.



Examples?  Even Japanese karate generally has the push-pull reactionary force concept implicit within each kihon technique.


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## puunui (Oct 11, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> Yes, Oh Do Kwan was a 50's creation but so was Taekwon-Do at which time Gen. Choi was moving away from Karate. This is evident in the 1965 book. TKD technigues were performed with both arms whether blocking, punching, or striking.  With Karate,in some cases, one hand would perform a technique while the other stays stationary. The stances were no longer long wide stances and knee spring was implimented. Now this only pertains to Taekwon-do under Gen. Choi.



The name Taekwondo was created in the 1950's, but at that time, the technical biomechanics were still from Karate, and also Kwon Bup. And during the 50's General Choi was busy being a general in the ROK Army; he had no time to be wasting on taekwondo's development. He had no students and was not developing anything, at least in the 1950's. If you want, go look at the videos on youtube to see what Taekwondo looked like in the 50's.


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## puunui (Oct 11, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Examples?  Even Japanese karate generally has the push-pull reactionary force concept implicit within each kihon technique.




There was some video out there which showed early shotokan practitioners doing down block with one arm moving only, with the other arm retracted in the fist on hip position. I have a Funakoshi Sensei tape I bought which shows that. I think that is what he is talking about. But the two armed motions what not something General Choi developed. I have photos of the original chung do kwan from the 1940's which show obvious two handed motions for blocks and strikes, similar to what we have today.


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## tkd1964 (Oct 12, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Examples?  Even Japanese karate generally has the push-pull reactionary force concept implicit within each kihon technique.



Here is an example.
http://youtu.be/TGbuoWzrvFM


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## tkd1964 (Oct 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> There was some video out there which showed early shotokan practitioners doing down block with one arm moving only, with the other arm retracted in the fist on hip position. I have a Funakoshi Sensei tape I bought which shows that. I think that is what he is talking about. But the two armed motions what not something General Choi developed. I have photos of the original chung do kwan from the 1940's which show obvious two handed motions for blocks and strikes, similar to what we have today.


I never meant to say that Gen. Choi developed the two arm motion. If that was how it was taken then I apologise.


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## tkd1964 (Oct 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> The name Taekwondo was created in the 1950's, but at that time, the technical biomechanics were still from Karate, and also Kwon Bup. And during the 50's General Choi was busy being a general in the ROK Army; he had no time to be wasting on taekwondo's development. He had no students and was not developing anything, at least in the 1950's. If you want, go look at the videos on youtube to see what Taekwondo looked like in the 50's.



That is your opinion. He did have time, otherwise he would not have worried about naming the art TKD, bringing a group of men together for tha purpose, then going to the President to convince him to agree on this name. His life was TKD. When he was Ambassador to Maylasia,  he cared more of TKD. Many people did not even know of korea and he felt that TKD would be a good stepping stone to aide him in getting Korea known. he would do demonstrations for diplomats which got him in trouble since pictures were taken of him doing the demonstration with his suit coat off. this was seen as embarrassing to the Korean people to have an ambassador acting in this manner. He saw it as opening the Maylasians eyes to Korea.


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## puunui (Oct 12, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> That is your opinion. He did have time, otherwise he would not have worried about naming the art TKD, bringing a group of men together for tha purpose, then going to the President to convince him to agree on this name. His life was TKD.



It is fact, not opinion. General Choi's life was the ROK Army, not Taekwondo, which is why we still address him as General, not GM or some other martial arts title. 

The naming committee was created because ROK President RHEE Syng Man exclaimed "That's Taekkyon!" after witnessing GM NAM Tae Hi break those roofing tiles in 1954. After President Rhee said that, everyone, including General Choi, asked "What's Taekkyon?" because they never heard about it until President Rhee mentioned it. This comes from a long time ITF senior who was present for the demonstration. This senior said that General Choi was busy with his military career, which was the most important thing to him, and that he never saw General Choi wear a dobok and never saw him teach during his time in the ROK Army. 

But if you want, please show me one photo of General Choi wearing a dobok and teaching a class in the 1950's, which is what we are talking about. One can find people who did the actual teaching and training wearing their dobok in the 1950's, but not General Choi. The article written by Master Weiss is one example. Think about it. If his life was all about Taekwondo, then why did he have a need for "Honorary" rank from the Chung Do Kwan during the 1950's? We give honorary rank to non-Taekwondoin, not practicing martial artists, just like we give Honorary college or university degrees to non-students. 





tkd1964 said:


> When he was Ambassador to Maylasia,  he cared more of TKD. Many people did not even know of korea and he felt that TKD would be a good stepping stone to aide him in getting Korea known. he would do demonstrations for diplomats which got him in trouble since pictures were taken of him doing the demonstration with his suit coat off. this was seen as embarrassing to the Korean people to have an ambassador acting in this manner. He saw it as opening the Maylasians eyes to Korea.



General Choi became an ambassador in the 1960's. We are talking about the 1950's, when you say Taekwondo was created.


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## BoA36 (Oct 12, 2011)

I started in taekwondo in 1970, though in hind sight the school was clearly a shotokan derivative.  Odd belt system - white, yellow, green, each with a stripe for "high" and the three levels of brown prior to black.  Anyone else ever run across this?  

BoA36


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## puunui (Oct 12, 2011)

BoA36 said:


> I started in taekwondo in 1970, though in hind sight the school was clearly a shotokan derivative.  Odd belt system - white, yellow, green, each with a stripe for "high" and the three levels of brown prior to black.  Anyone else ever run across this?




Sounds like a Moo Duk Kwan dojang. Who was your teacher?


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## dancingalone (Oct 12, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> Here is an example.
> http://youtu.be/TGbuoWzrvFM



<shrugs> It looks like he is pulling back with the hikite arm to me as I would expect, even if the movement is small.  You can see his students in the other videos have bigger movements which show the push/pull more.

Unrelated to the point at hand, but the performer is the head of a  Goju-ryu group yet the forms they play in the related videos are variations on the Pinan forms, which generally considered Shorin-ryu forms.  Interesting interpretations.


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## Spookey (Oct 12, 2011)

By the late 1960's the Ohdokwan still used four belts, but had removed brown changing the order to White, Blue, Red, Black. Then in about 1973-1974 the six belt system was implemented along with the new hyung.

Spooks


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## puunui (Oct 13, 2011)

Spookey said:


> By the late 1960's the Ohdokwan still used four belts, but had removed brown changing the order to White, Blue, Red, Black. Then in about 1973-1974 the six belt system was implemented along with the new hyung.



And the Oh Do Kwan Jang at the time, GM HYUN Jong Myun, was a member of the KTA Committee that created the Palgwae and Yudanja poomsae in 1967 and the Taeguek and new Koryo (the one we do now) in 1972. So the Chang Hon forms have been incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae by GM Hyun, who was the senior Oh Do Kwan member, more senior than even GM NAM Tae Hi. GM Hyun was part of the first group of dan holders at the Chung Do Kwan under GM LEE Won Kuk, he was present during the 1954 Naming Committee meeting, and was also the person who first showed GM HWANG Kee the Chung Do Kwan forms when both worked at Seoul Station.


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## BoA36 (Oct 13, 2011)

puunui said:


> Sounds like a Moo Duk Kwan dojang. Who was your teacher?



A small group near the old New Castle County/Wilmington, DE airport.  Instructor was a 2nd dan named Christian Zuber.  Do not recall under whom he had studied.  Then worked with another 2nd dan who studied under a Korean master teaching in the Malvern, PA area.  Would love to be able to find more info on him but have never been able to do so.

BoA36


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## tkd1964 (Oct 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> The naming committee was created because ROK President RHEE Syng Man exclaimed "That's Taekkyon!" after witnessing GM NAM Tae Hi break those roofing tiles in 1954. After President Rhee said that, everyone, including General Choi, asked "What's Taekkyon?" because they never heard about it until President Rhee mentioned it. This comes from a long time ITF senior who was present for the demonstration. This senior said that General Choi was busy with his military career, which was the most important thing to him, and that he never saw General Choi wear a dobok and never saw him teach during his time in the ROK Army.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Who was this ITF senior you are talking about? In the picture after the Demo,there were three people discussing the demo, President Rhee, Gen. Choi, and one other soldier who I believe is Major-general Jong Oh Kim. There was no one else close to here them speak. 
Gen. Choi had no interest in Taekwon-do at the time he was in the military, this is why he founded the Oh Do Kwan, this is why he had a demo in front of the President. This is why he took a Military Demo team to Vietnam. Gen. Choi was too busy.
This story of Gen. Choi asking "What's Taekkyon?" sounds just like all the other stories; Gen. Choi slapped a relative of President Park so he had to leave the Country, GM Son passed a matchbook with Taekwon-Do on it, etc.


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## puunui (Oct 17, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> Who was this ITF senior you are talking about? In the picture after the Demo,there were three people discussing the demo, President Rhee, Gen. Choi, and one other soldier who I believe is Major-general Jong Oh Kim. There was no one else close to here them speak.



It was GM Byung Moo Lee. If you have a problem with what he said, if you  think he is a liar, then I suggest you take it up with him personally. GM Lee just volunteered the information. I didn't ask him about it but rather just let him speak freely about his perspective. 

Also, I am assuming that you couldn't find a photo of General Choi wearing a dobok in the 1950s teaching anyone. No problem, because there are no such photos. 




tkd1964 said:


> Gen. Choi had no interest in Taekwon-do at the time he was in the military, this is why he founded the Oh Do Kwan, this is why he had a demo in front of the President. This is why he took a Military Demo team to Vietnam. Gen. Choi was too busy.



He did such things, but it was GM NAM Tae Hi who did all the work, including at the demonstration. If General Choi the martial artist that you claim he was in the 1950s, why didn't he perform at the demo? Why make GM Nam do it? Think about it. 




tkd1964 said:


> This story of Gen. Choi asking "What's Taekkyon?" sounds just like all the other stories; Gen. Choi slapped a relative of President Park so he had to leave the Country, GM Son passed a matchbook with Taekwon-Do on it, etc.



The difference is that it comes from someone who was a long time member of the ITF, someone who has no reason to lie about something like that. It is not like it is a statement from one of General Choi's "enemies". 

The difference between you and I is that you take everything in the light most favorable to General Choi. I take things in the light in which it actually occurred.


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## Spookey (Oct 17, 2011)

Grandmaster Ee, Byung Moo was the second most senior of the Ohdokwan (after GM Nam) if I am not mistaken. May I ask the context of the conversation in which he said this to you? Once I receive more information regarding the context, I may inquire with GM Ee, during our next conversation.

Spooks


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## puunui (Oct 18, 2011)

Spookey said:


> Grandmaster Ee, Byung Moo was the second most senior of the Ohdokwan (after GM Nam) if I am not mistaken. May I ask the context of the conversation in which he said this to you?




The context was that we were walking around and happened upon his store. We went in, and I recognized him, we started talking about Taekwondo and he volunteered the information while I listened to him speak about his perspective on the history of Taekwondo. It wasn't like I was trying to dig for information against General Choi and pumping him for damaging information. He just honestly told me the way he remembered it, without prompting or leading questions from me.


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## tkd1964 (Oct 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> He did such things, but it was GM NAM Tae Hi who did all the work, including at the demonstration. If General Choi the martial artist that you claim he was in the 1950s, why didn't he perform at the demo? Why make GM Nam do it? Think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A General did not participate in demonstrations, I don't care what country you're from. The Oh do Kwan was set up with Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo as the instructors. Again, he was a General, he would not be teaching, that was left to lower ranks. GM Nam contacted other officers with Tang Soo Do experiance to assist the Oh do Kwan to spread the training throughout the Korean Army. Those first instructors, according to GM C.K.Choi, were Nam Tae Hi, Ko Jae Chun, Woo Jung Lim, Kim Suk Kyu, and Baek Joon Ki. 
Now, between 1955 and 1957, the first three new patterns were developed. Gen. Choi and GM Nam developed Hwa Rang and Choong Mo patterns and Gen. Choi and GM Han developed Ul-Ji pattern . These patterns were, in turn, taught to the troops along with Japanese Kata by those first instructors.


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## tkd1964 (Oct 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> It was GM Byung Moo Lee. If you have a problem with what he said, if you  think he is a liar, then I suggest you take it up with him personally. GM Lee just volunteered the information. I didn't ask him about it but rather just let him speak freely about his perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Why is it that I must prove something Gen. Choi said by I have to take the word of what  someone said to you   without question?


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## tkd1964 (Oct 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> The difference between you and I is that you take everything in the light most favorable to General Choi. I take things in the light in which it actually occurred.



Sorry but I don't take only favorable things on Gen. Choi. Gen. Choi caused alot of friction with Taekwon-Do from the Military to the KTA, to the ITF itself. He was far from perfect. But for you to quote a former ITF instructor and say it actually happened the way he said without more facts I don't buy it. sorry.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> He did such things, but it was GM NAM Tae Hi who did all the work, including at the demonstration. If General Choi the martial artist that you claim he was in the 1950s, why didn't he perform at the demo? Why make GM Nam do it? Think about it.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## puunui (Oct 19, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> A General did not participate in demonstrations, I don't care what country you're from.



Is that rule written down somewhere? 



tkd1964 said:


> The Oh do Kwan was set up with Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo as the instructors. Again, he was a General, he would not be teaching, that was left to lower ranks.



Ok, so you agree with me then that General Choi did not wear a uniform and did not teach when he was in the ROK Army. No problem. 




tkd1964 said:


> GM Nam contacted other officers with Tang Soo Do experiance to assist the Oh do Kwan to spread the training throughout the Korean Army. Those first instructors, according to GM C.K.Choi, were Nam Tae Hi, Ko Jae Chun, Woo Jung Lim, Kim Suk Kyu, and Baek Joon Ki.



I see that in GM Choi's book, page 81-82. But on page 9, GM Choi references GM WOO Jong Lim as "General". Does that mean he didn't teach or demonstrate either?




tkd1964 said:


> Now, between 1955 and 1957, the first three new patterns were developed. Gen. Choi and GM Nam developed Hwa Rang and Choong Mo patterns and Gen. Choi and GM Han developed Ul-Ji pattern . These patterns were, in turn, taught to the troops along with Japanese Kata by those first instructors.



I see that again in GM Choi's book, page 81-82. Are you just throwing that in there or does it have some relevance to the discussion? For example, when "Gen. Choi and GM Nam developed Hwa Rang and Choong Mo patterns and Gen. Choi and GM Han developed Ul-Ji pattern", did General Choi wear his dobok and actually work through the physical movements with GM Nam and GM Han? GM Choi's book doesn't say.


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## puunui (Oct 19, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> Why is it that I must prove something Gen. Choi said by I have to take the word of what  someone said to you   without question?



You don't have to do anything. And to make it even more clear, I am not trying to convince you of anything. But again, if you have a problem with what GM Lee said, go take it up with him.


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## puunui (Oct 19, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> As I have related before, as told to me by GM Nam Tae Hi as to why General Choi did not teach the troops directly, he said that an officer would not associate that way with enlisted men. It just wasn't done. General Choi would spend time with him and the other ODK instructors, going over techniques / patterns etc. and those instructors would teach the troops.



The problem with that is that GM Nam and a lot of the other Oh Do Kwan pioneers were officers. GM WOO Jong Lim was even a General, and most of the others ended up as Colonels, including but not limited to GM Nam. 




Earl Weiss said:


> As far as "The demonstration goes" I guess the first question would be who organized it? It was but a small part of a much larger military demonstration / exhibition of Vehicles, artillary airplanes etc. Participants in the Martial Arts portion seemed to only be active CDK students.  So, logicaly at that time General Choi would not be a part since once again he was an officer, and I don't think he was an active CDK student.  He might not have even been aware that this would be a part of the exhibition.



General Choi talks about this in his autobiography. You can see what he says about who participated in that demonstration, wand when it was held, which in part was to commemorate the first year anniversary of his 29th Division.


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## puunui (Oct 19, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> Why is it that I must prove something Gen. Choi said by I have to take the word of what  someone said to you   without question?




Oh, and I forgot to mention, if what you are trying to "prove" are statements regarding his alleged early training with HAN Il Dong, then I can tell you that General Choi was interviewed by GM LEE Yong Bok, one of the leaders of Taekkyon in Korea. During that interview, which was videotaped, General Choi admitted that he did not have any training in Taekkyon with HAN Il Dong.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 20, 2011)

...>>>*puunui* 



[h=2]Re: Original belt colors[/h]






 Originally Posted by *Earl Weiss* 

 
As I have related before, as told to me by GM Nam Tae Hi as to why General Choi did not teach the troops directly, he said that an officer would not associate that way with enlisted men. It just wasn't done. General Choi would spend time with him and the other ODK instructors, going over techniques / patterns etc. and those instructors would teach the troops.



The problem with that is that GM Nam and a lot of the other Oh Do Kwan pioneers were officers. GM WOO Jong Lim was even a General, and most of the others ended up as Colonels, including but not limited to GM Nam. <<<

You are correct. My use of terminology was incorrect. It should have said that a "General" not "Officer"  would not associated with the enlisted men. Cannot speak to the alleged GM Woo Jong Lim being a General issue. You would have to ask GM Nam​


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## puunui (Oct 20, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Cannot speak to the alleged GM Woo Jong Lim being a General issue. You would have to ask GM Nam



No need to ask GM Nam. There is a picture of GM WOO Jong Lim in GM CK Choi's book wearing his military uniform, and you can see at least one star on his shoulders.


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## tkd1964 (Oct 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> No need to ask GM Nam. There is a picture of GM WOO Jong Lim in GM CK Choi's book wearing his military uniform, and you can see at least one star on his shoulders.



GM Woo was a Major in 1957,a Lt. Colonel in 1962 at which time he held the first Taekwon-Do Champinship. I do not see where GM Choi said he was a General or where you can see a star on his uniform.


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## tkd1964 (Oct 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> I see that again in GM Choi's book, page 81-82. Are you just throwing that in there or does it have some relevance to the discussion? For example, when "Gen. Choi and GM Nam developed Hwa Rang and Choong Mo patterns and Gen. Choi and GM Han developed Ul-Ji pattern", did General Choi wear his dobok and actually work through the physical movements with GM Nam and GM Han? GM Choi's book doesn't say.


What is it with you and Doboks. The only time I saw Gen. Choi wear a uniform, aside from pictures for his books, was at a Seminar in Canada for Fifth Degrees(?) and above. So then traveling around the World for 40 plus years doesn't count since he didn't wear a Dobok. When he went to Vietnam to teach there didn't count either...no Dobok. I don't think he wore one for Master Weisses seminar in chicago either. I know he didn't when he came to town for Master Hong Song Yu. Even the last seminar in Colorado as seen on you tube, yep, no Dobok. Wow, you really have something there.


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## Spookey (Oct 20, 2011)

With no attempt to play devils advocate...

 I must first mention my high regard for General Choi. Now to qualify that even with a great level of respect I still believe many others are due credit as well for the formative years of Taekwondo.

That being said GM Woo, Jong Lim became Brigadier General, Woo Jong-Lim later in his career. 

Other Points of Interest
1. GM Woo, Jong-Lim was the first instructor of Taekwondo Legend - GM Kong Young-il
2. GM Woo, Jong Lim opened the civilian annex of the OhDoKwan
3. GM Woo, Jong Lim went on to become President of Daehan Taekwondo Ohdokwan, Jong An Bon Kwan, Seoul Korea


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## puunui (Oct 20, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> GM Woo was a Major in 1957,a Lt. Colonel in 1962 at which time he held the first Taekwon-Do Champinship. I do not see where GM Choi said he was a General or where you can see a star on his uniform.



Page 9.


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## puunui (Oct 20, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> What is it with you and Doboks. The only time I saw Gen. Choi wear a uniform, aside from pictures for his books, was at a Seminar in Canada for Fifth Degrees(?) and above. So then traveling around the World for 40 plus years doesn't count since he didn't wear a Dobok. When he went to Vietnam to teach there didn't count either...no Dobok. I don't think he wore one for Master Weisses seminar in chicago either. I know he didn't when he came to town for Master Hong Song Yu. Even the last seminar in Colorado as seen on you tube, yep, no Dobok. Wow, you really have something there.




He also is wearing one when he is breaking those boards with his knife hand. He says in his autobiography that when he took that picture, he let out a out kihap "Yat!", but if you look at the photo, his mouth is closed, with what looks like a clenched jaw. 

And it's not me, it's the other people who say they never saw him wear a dobok or teach students when he was in the military. If you wish to revere General Choi, then go for it. But please keep in mind that those that worked with him during those early years have a different perspective.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> No need to ask GM Nam. There is a picture of GM WOO Jong Lim in GM CK Choi's book wearing his military uniform, and you can see at least one star on his shoulders.



The question about the "General Issue" was not whether he ever made "General" but rather the statement with regard to teaching the tropps "That a General would not associate with enlisted men in this fashion", and how then did GM Woo Jong Lim apparently do this.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> If you wish to revere General Choi, then go for it. But please keep in mind that those that worked with him during those early years have a different perspective.



Particularly those who split from him for any number of reasons so they certainly would not harbor any bad feelings or jealousy.


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## puunui (Oct 21, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> The question about the "General Issue" was not whether he ever made "General" but rather the statement with regard to teaching the tropps "That a General would not associate with enlisted men in this fashion", and how then did GM Woo Jong Lim apparently do this.




My mistake. I thought you said we should ask GM Nam if GM Woo was a General when you said this: "Cannot speak to the alleged GM Woo Jong Lim being a General issue. You would have to ask GM Nam"


But tkd1964 definitely wanted proof of GM Woo being a General when he asked this: "GM Woo was a Major in 1957,a Lt. Colonel in 1962 at which time he held  the first Taekwon-Do Champinship. I do not see where GM Choi said he was  a General or where you can see a star on his uniform."


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## puunui (Oct 21, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Particularly those who split from him for any number of reasons so they certainly would not harbor any bad feelings or jealousy.



That would basically be the vast majority of people, including but not limited to those that have been mentioned in this thread.


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