# Antony Cummins - Shoninki



## Muawijhe (Oct 8, 2010)

For those that are interested, and perhaps were following the Antony Cummins threads on MAP, I'd like to point out a new one has started there (a while ago, but it's gotten interesting).

A monster mess it is, but if one flips through all the pages one will find some examples of Antony's translations/commentaries of the Shoninki, as well as some videos he posted of himself trying some of the techniques and "coming clean" about his training background.

Oh, and the most interesting part: Mr. Cummins claims to have recieved the full ninjutsu tradition of the Katori Shinto Ryu.

Thought I'd share.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Oct 12, 2010)

I saw this book on ebay. it looks interesing. its a bit of a hit or miss.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 12, 2010)

Not one I will be wasting my time on!  To many issues with his history!


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 12, 2010)

DuskB4Dawn said:


> I saw this book on ebay. it looks interesing. its a bit of a hit or miss.



Given what I've seen of the man and the way he hypes himself...
And given the fact that many people I respect very much call BS...

... I am guessing it will be 'miss'.
Perhaps not from a commercial aspect, but from a historical pov.


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## Muawijhe (Oct 13, 2010)

I still plan on getting a copy of the book, that way I will know for sure.

I'm sure his team has put some work into it, but they'll probably make as many mistakes in some aspects as anyone else.

The only thing that turns me off a lot about it (purely from the book standpoint, and not Mr. Cummins) is that apparently a lot of the commentary is added right to the text, so it is not a direct translation*.

Regardless, I'll reserve a lot of my judgment until after I buy it. But that's just me.

*With the caveat that it could never be direct, as it was translated into modern Japanese, then to English, then reworked by Antony and his team to integrate their conjectures and theories on what Natori meant.


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## oaktree (Oct 13, 2010)

Why not purchase this guy's book:

http://www.amazon.com/Shoninki-Secr...3432/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1286971798&sr=8-9


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## Chris Parker (Oct 13, 2010)

For the most reliable version, I'd wait for Don Roley's version (as he now looks to be putting it out). Axels' has issues as well, but it's looking to be at least more "translation" than "interpretation", which is Antony's approach.

Antony's behaviour on MAP has been rather, uh, interesting to say the least... The only thing that may get me looking at his book is the information on Katori Shinto Ryu. Not that I think he has anything like the "full tradition", as he claimed, as he also seems to think that the articles Otake Sensei was putting together for Hiden magazine (in Japan) is the full tradition, and it seems that all he has is the articles that Otake Sensei is allowing him to reprint. Still, as Hiden is in Japanese, and not available here, it may be worth something there. But I'd rather Otake Sensei himself put it out....


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## Muawijhe (Oct 14, 2010)

oaktree said:


> Why not purchase this guy's book:
> http://www.amazon.com/Shoninki-Secr...3432/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1286971798&sr=8-9


 
Personally, if you are of astute mind and have an ability to cross reference and not take information from just one source, it might be worth a pick up as well as the other versions.

But as Mr. Parker stated, Don Roley will (hopefully) be releasing his version of the Shoninki. Though again, any product can really only be judged in its completion.


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## nitflegal (Oct 17, 2010)

I fail to see why I should enrich someone who has displayed that he has no problems lying to the martial arts community both about his training background and his skillset.  Beyond that, why on earth would I buy a book to study if I can't trust the translation or the interpretations within?  I could take the 1-2 hours I'd use reading this book and read something trustworthy; my library backlog at this point will take more than my lifetime to finish, why delay getting to a good book to read a suspect one?  Matt


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 18, 2010)

Don Roley is apparently going to be selling his translation by the end of the year!  That would be the copy to have!


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## Muawijhe (Oct 20, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Don Roley is apparently going to be selling his translation by the end of the year! That would be the copy to have!


 
I would be very excited to have a copy of that. Has he confirmed if he is going to sell it or distribute it for free?


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## Chris Parker (Oct 20, 2010)

He is planning on selling it, check his update on the thread on Budoseek for details. Oh, and this is really just for you, but check the clip Antony put up today announcing the Katori Shinto section in his edition. And read the comments.....


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 20, 2010)

Yes I read on budoseek that Don is going to publish his book. That is definitely one that I want to have.


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## Muawijhe (Oct 26, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and this is really just for you, but check the clip Antony put up today announcing the Katori Shinto section in his edition. And read the comments.....


 
My head really hurts from that. Why does he keep insisting he has the "full" tradition? I mean, I have no proof he doesn't, but it is just so unbelievable. Not to mention all of the other crazy things he says.

"Then the samurai would open the door and shoot into the garden to see...hopefully hitting a ninja."

I like how in that video he is all dressed up with a picture of his book behind him. Quite the contrast to his slovenly appearance as he played with a severed pig's head...

Did you also notice, Mr. Parker, that he seems to have gotten pretty chummy with Greg Park (Choson Ninja) as of late? Seems he's really taking to the "ninjutsu comes from Korea" idea. It's almost as if he latches on to any idea opposite that of the X-kans (and other legitimate sources).

At least he's not building for a Koga-ryu tradition. He'd be more convincing than some of the others out there...


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## Chris Parker (Oct 27, 2010)

Yeah, I saw that. He's up to at least three videos now on "The Evidence for Ninjutsu in Korea".... now, if people gave him credence before, he's going to lose a fair bit there, hopefully!


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 27, 2010)

Muawijhe said:


> It's almost as if he latches on to any idea opposite that of the X-kans (and other legitimate sources).



I guess that is because he gets nothing but flak from us and we are just big meanies. If he joins with the kooks, he'll get confirmation because they're only interesting in confirming each other to gain credibility.

I guess that the koryu folks will also raise their eyebrows at his story of having gotten a full KS ninjutsu tradition. Anything is possible of course, including winning the powerball... but if someone is telling you he can sell you the winning numbers, if is best to take it with a grain of salt... or a whole bucket


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## Chris Parker (Oct 27, 2010)

Oh, it's not just us. First he tried to show his "deep understanding" and revolutionary ideas on Talhoffer German Swordsmanship and other WMA's, only to be laughed out for having no understanding or skills (or training) whatsoever. Then he moved over to claim the exact same book (written about his understanding of WMA's) was written about his understanding of Ninjutsu.... then it changed to being written about his understanding of Karate (he supposedly earnt a green belt as a child... let's just say his demonstrations of Karate kata and bunkai showed no real understanding there, either). He has also tried to comment on things such as Aikido (if Muawijhe still has the exchange I sent him, feel free to post somewhere.... saw you already did on MAP, they seemed to appreciate that!).

In regards to Koryu folks raising their eyebrows, so far we have only the word of a person who doesn't live in Japan, doesn't speak Japanese, doesn't read Japanese, is not a member of the Ryu in question, who had an interview with Otake Sensei over "tea and biscuits", during which Otake showed the articles he was putting together for Hiden magazine, and Antony asked if he could publish them in his book. He has interpretted the okay and subsequent conversations as these articles being the complete tradition. I'll believe it when I get confirmation from the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu themselves.


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## Muawijhe (Oct 27, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, I saw that. He's up to at least three videos now on "The Evidence for Ninjutsu in Korea".... now, if people gave him credence before, he's going to lose a fair bit there, hopefully!


 
Hopefully.

All of a sudden I am completely turned off to the Shoninki. I heard there is yet another version found at www.shoninki.com. It seems promising. Unfortunately, I cannot read a translation, let alone hear the word Shoninki, without hearing Antony's voice in my head...


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## Muawijhe (Oct 27, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I guess that is because he gets nothing but flak from us and we are just big meanies. If he joins with the kooks, he'll get confirmation because they're only interesting in confirming each other to gain credibility.


 
I think you hit an underlying facet of his motivation there.

What it seems to me, and merely speculation as I have not met Mr. Cummins, is that he had his head full of "ninja" when he was younger, much like many of us. He's admitted to having some Hayes books as a child.

In one of his videos or posts, I remember no which, he goes on to say that he was all super hyped and eager to go to Japan and train with Hatsumi. When he got there, he saw "a bunch of overweight men rolling around on mats" (not a directe quote, but close enough). 

Well, I could see how that would dash a child's dreams of seeing a ninja training dojo as something...more...well...like a Hayes book or movie (_American Ninja_ training camps, anyone?). Perhaps he feels wronged by Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. Perhaps that is why he has found a niche aspect of Ninjutsu and has worked to exploit it (Ninjutsu being only stealth techniques, and not a hand-to-hand martial art), both for profit and revenge.

I think Antony is merely misguided. Had he not been so disheartened with the Bujinkan, and stayed studying, perhaps he'd be channeling all of his interest for the greater Ninjutsu good, so to speak. And not to say all of his information is flawed, but it does seem to come with an agenda to do the Buj and similar organizations harm. You can see this within his presentation, most notably his claims of having the one and only truth about ninjutsu. He's rarely happy allowing others to exist, in turn making his recent partnership with Choson Ninja interesting.

Then again, said partnership is no different then a lot of the Koga groups joining forces in their own anti-Takamatsuden camps. I would worry, yet be amused, if the greats such as Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, Antony Cummins, Choson Ninja, emiliozapata, and the rest were to ally and meld their fantasies together... 

Finally, that's just my thoughts and feelings, based on what I've observed on the net. I can't speak with certainty. Figured I'd put that disclaimer in there.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 27, 2010)

Antony seems to have gone to Japan with a head filled with fantasy already, not sure that anything he found there would have helped. As I recall, he said in his own videos that he went to Japan without being a member of the Bujinkan (officially), as he opted not to pay the membership fees and have the appropriate paperwork filled out (to get him his 4th Dan, apparently..... seems convenient, if you ask me, "I'm really a 4th Dan, I just never got the paperwork filled out!"), as soon as he got there he went to Hatsumi Sensei and explained that as he was working off his degree, he had no money for training (then why travel to Japan if you can't afford to train?), so could he instead be the "dojo *****" (his words), cleaning, sweeping etc in exchange for free training? Hatsumi, not surprisingly, said no.

Antony doesn't seem to get that, to Hatsumi, he was just another Westerner who he (Hatsumi) had never heard of, nothing special whatsoever. Didn't matter how far he had travelled, or his financial situation, he was nothing special. And he remains that everywhere except his own head, it seems.

His take on whether or not Ninjutsu is a "martial art" seems to be that because the various Ninjutsu Ryuha use the same, or very similar, actions as more "conventional" systems, they have nothing unique from a technical point of view, therefore they are not their own martial art, just a version of Jujutsu. Sadly, all this does is show that he has absolutely no idea whatsoever about what makes a martial art, what a martial art is, or what Ninjutsu is. 

By the way, the version of the Shoninki that you linked above seems to be the best presently available, personally I'd want to get both that one and Don Roley's version as a good cross reference to each other. But that's how I do these things.


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## Muawijhe (Oct 27, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> By the way, the version of the Shoninki that you linked above seems to be the best presently available, personally I'd want to get both that one and Don Roley's version as a good cross reference to each other. But that's how I do these things.


 
I agree wholeheartedly with the above (unquoted portion). As for the quoted, yes I also agree. I will own all of the versions, even Antony's, to cross reference.

For the one I just recently found out about, and linked, I'd like to get his German version. It has a much smaller page count than his English edition of this year, but I'm curious what he has to say (auf Deutsch) on the matter.


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## ronin7411 (Nov 27, 2010)

Did you guys see Anthony Cummins new videos on the Bujinkan's lineage based on the request of Bujinkan members to prove Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage to the public











If you guys want to debate his claims that Takamatsu made up everything you can contact him at this site here: http://www.natori.co.uk/natori home.html or go to his Youtube account to contact him.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 27, 2010)

To me, the point is moot.
And we won't change dear old Anthony's mind.
We'd only give him free publicity.
He's an idiot with no actual first hand knowledge and no relevance.


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## EWBell (Nov 27, 2010)

Funny thing about Cummins is he talks about training with some Amatsu Tatara taijutsu gentleman in England.  Strange that the Amatsu Tatara is as tied to Takamatsu Sensei as anything else is.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 28, 2010)

ronin7411 said:


> Did you guys see Anthony Cummins new videos on the Bujinkan's lineage based on the request of Bujinkan members to prove Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage to the public
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Oh dear. Johhny, I've "debated" Antony a number of times. He, frankly, has no understanding of martial arts of any form, no clue about the history, there are huge gaps in his knowledge of the culture, he cannot read, speak, or even pronounce Japanese words, and has no real ability to back up his claims, no ability to demonstrate simple reasoning and critical thinking in his "research", and far more. He is a big mouth with little ideas, and should be treated as such. 

So you know, though, he has a tendency, if you do try to debate him, he quickly resorts to outright insults (most often questioning sexuality, most original) and deleting comments. Going to his youtube page doesn't really do much.

EWBell, Antony claims a number of interesting things, including being taught in the middle of a lake at night by the mysterious Ste(wart) Powell, a name which is only known as it features in Antony's books in the dedications. He also claimed to have spent a number of years training at the Hombu for the Bujinkan, and the Hombu for the Genbukan. The only verifiable part of his story may be Dennis Bartrum, who teaches something that comes from Amatsu and Budo Taijutsu, and is not considered good by anyone I've encountered in the Bujinkan. The reason it may be verifiable is that there is footage of Antony training at Dennis' class, although it all looks to be from one day, not years of footage as he seems to make out. Antony and Dennis live a few hundred miles from each other, so Dennis being his "local" school that he went to regularly is not really looking likely.

It turned out the Bujinkan Hombu training was Antony turning up in Japan, telling Hatsumi that he didn't have enough money for training (as he was paying for his degree), so could he be the "dojo b-tch" (his words) and clean it and run other errands in exchange for free training? Hatsumi said no, but allowed Antony to stay and watch some classes, until he got sick of this little hanger-on. That's the extent of his "Bujinkan" training (by the way, he justifies this by saying that he was taught informally, and was told he was as good as a 4th Dan [?!?!] if he wanted to send his membership moneys to Japan... he chose not to, as he was "comfortable knowing his instructor was his instructor", he didn't need any more than that).

The Genbukan story is supported by Antony having a signed copy of Ninpo Secrets... which he bought, and got signed in his one meeting with Tanemura in Tanemura's office. No training in the Genbukan, then.

If any of this crosses the line of fraudbusting, then I apologise, however this is pretty much all from Antony's own hand (and mouth), so I'm simply repeating facts for those unaware. Hmm, the way this is going, this may end up in The Great Debate yet.....


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## ronin7411 (Nov 28, 2010)

Here's Part 3 guys on his investigation into the Bujinkan


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## Chris Parker (Nov 29, 2010)

First off, Johnny, do you actually read anyone else's posts?

But, to humour you, I went through Antony's latest little endeavour, and let's just say that there are some serious issues with his ideas there as well. He claims that Ueno is a place name, and therefore wouldn't be used as a Ryu-ha name, despite it also being a rather famous family name (Ueno Takashi, for example...), his pronunciation of Japanese is terrible, he mis-translates a range of terms while apparently "correcting" others, he contradicts his own ideas, and misses rather important details.

Until he can show any form of credibility with regard to the subject matter, the language, or the culture he is attempting to discuss, he will be ridiculed and dismissed. As he should be, frankly, his ideas on research are below lazy, and his arrogance in thinking after his lack of experience he knows any of this better than people who have been looking at this for literally decades is unforgiveable.


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## oaktree (Nov 29, 2010)

I would be interested in seeing what the Kanji club comes up with. The people whom Mr.Cummins hired or whatever.

I do hope they keep the Kanji in the book so others can compare it with the translation the Kanji club did.
Mr.Roley is spot on about just because you can translate the book(the Kanji club translation) does not mean the work is accurate. You have to know the context of what is being said.


Mr.Roley truly has a passion for it and my impression of Mr.Cummins is more of an egocentric presentation a way to validate himself practicing or some pseudo authortity on this art.

It is really a ballsy move to translate a text like this my thoughts that native speakers may be able to translate it but I think the context would be inaccurate as Mr.Roley pointed out before.


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 29, 2010)

true Oaktree. Ironically, in translating the text, you risk loosing the message. Such is the predicament of translating from kanbun. Such joy. People claiming to have "the ultimate translation" of shoninki usually don't know what they're talking about. The only way of doing this is with lots and lots of annotations and notes. Like you guys said, not just translating the text, but putting it in the context of the time it was written, the people it was written by and the readers it was written for (not to mention culture and bloody grammar complicating translation). It's like reading a poorly translated unannotated version of Heidegger's Sein und Zeit. Even the original work requires some annotation (well, more than just "some"); let alone a translation made 90 years later (or centuries later and across vastly different era and cultures, like with shoninki). It amuses me how easy such daunting tasks come to people like good Anthony. He must be truely blessed. Mr' Roley's account sound alot more thought out, and alot less presumptious, which is usually a good indication.


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## ronin7411 (Nov 29, 2010)

Actually I do Chris but if you want to change his mind because I'm not the one that is saying the Bujinkan is fake and Takamatsu made everything up you can contact him yourself and tell him everything that you are telling me. I'm not Bujinkan so it doesn't bother me what Anthony has to say about the Bujinkan its his opinion and what he thinks of the Bujinkan if you guys are offended or angered about what he said you take tell him yourself. (Going off of his videos already there are Bujinkan guys going after him as it is for the videos.)


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## Chris Parker (Nov 30, 2010)

The reason I ask is that we stated rather clearly that whatever Antony has to say doens't really interest us, as he has demonstrated again and again that he is in no position to hold any credibility whatsoever. Repeatedly. Then you post some links to videos of his, and we repeat again that we frankly don't care. I also point out that I have personally "debated" Antony, and found his skills, insights, theories, ideas, concepts, research, and critical thinking (as well as basic language skills and more) very lacking. You then post another one, and once again suggest that I can contact him myself (after I already told you I had had contact with him over these types of things). Was there a reason you thought we would be interested?

Really, this is similar to your thread on "Ninjitsu training partners...", again you were repeatedly told things and refused to listen. So I'm just noticing a pattern here, really.

But, for fun, really, I did send a few comments to the clips, correcting a few of the most glaring issues he has, he changed his story in his reply, so I pointed that out to him, and he went silent.... again.... He really doesn't impress me.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 30, 2010)

Kajowaraku said:


> true Oaktree. Ironically, in translating the text, you risk loosing the message. Such is the predicament of translating from kanbun. Such joy. People claiming to have "the ultimate translation" of shoninki usually don't know what they're talking about. The only way of doing this is with lots and lots of annotations and notes. Like you guys said, not just translating the text, but putting it in the context of the time it was written, the people it was written by and the readers it was written for (not to mention culture and bloody grammar complicating translation).



I am waiting for Don Roley to release his translation of shoninki.
Don's a translator (Japanese of course) is a bujinkan high level student, has lived in Japan for a long time and has made exhaustive studies of JMA and topics related to ninjutsu. If anyone can make a proper annotated translation, it is him.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 30, 2010)

Sadly, I'm less convinced now that Don is going to release it to the public. His main reason was to provide a better alternative to the less-reliable version Antony was bringing out. But with the other versions (particularly the German one) that have more credibility than Antony's, he's stopped seeing the reason. I would still prefer to see his version over pretty much any other, though. At present it is only available through his newsletter, and he makes that available to only those who he deems good enough people.... and are members of the Bujinkan in good standing. So that rules out any other X-Kan or split off members, from the impression I get from him. Pity, really.


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## ronin7411 (Dec 2, 2010)

Here's his latest video I have friends of mine who belong to the Bujinkan and even they see flaws in his videos but to remain fair and so that people can choose to believe what they want on the style of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu here is the 4th video on his investigation into the Bujinkan he's suppose to be doing a summary video really soon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrcwLu3urBg&feature=player_embedded#!


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## Rayban (Dec 2, 2010)

ronin7411 said:


> the style of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu




Really?!

(face palm)


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## Chris Parker (Dec 3, 2010)

Johnny, I'm going to recommend you stop this endeavour here. Again. I'll go through your post and point out how you aren't listening, just to help, but this'll probably get quite harsh. I'm just in that kind of a mood, really.



ronin7411 said:


> Here's his latest video


 
The first ones were rather badly done, he keeps claiming no agenda other than the truth, yet ignores anything that contradicts his frankly flawed and limited understanding of the subject. We don't really have any reason to see more, he doesn't improve with age or repeated viewing. 

We are not interested. If you are, watch them.



ronin7411 said:


> I have friends of mine who belong to the Bujinkan and even they see flaws in his videos


 
Really? He has an agenda of "exposing the Bujinkan", and members of the Bujinkan see flaws? Hell, I'm not a member of the Bujinkan and I see a lot of flaws! Haven't you been paying attention? We all see a lot of flaws with this guy, that's why we don't really care what he says!



ronin7411 said:


> but to remain fair and so that people can choose to believe what they want on the style of Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu here is the 4th video on his investigation into the Bujinkan he's suppose to be doing a summary video really soon
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrcwLu3urBg&feature=player_embedded#!


 
Really? Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu? Again? 

Johnny, you got some great advice and education from a number of people over a period of about 6 months, starting with teaching you how to spell the word correctly, if you are still doing this, you have absolutely no interest in learning anything about the actual art itself. You have found your modern baseless non-Japanese non-authentic non-legitimate system that you're learning through correspondance, go enjoy that. But really, realise that it has absolutely nothing to do with anything close to an actual authentic art, Japanese, Ninjutsu, or otherwise. And don't expect to be taken as a serious contributor after your other thread until you decide to actually listen to those who have been there, and done that.

Okay, that was the harsh bit, sorry everyone else.

This is not remaining fair, from him or you. This is pursuing an agenda. That's all it is. There is no "fair" approach from him, so there can be no "fairness" in continuing to post his videos.

Do you get it yet?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 3, 2010)

The thing is that as bad as his research is other people who are frauds are flocking to it to help give themselves credentials.  It is one huge mess.  Anyone who is endorsed and or associated by some of these other people should make you say literally "oh my god"!


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## Indagator (Dec 4, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The thing is that as bad as his research is other people who are frauds are flocking to it to help give themselves credentials. It is one huge mess. Anyone who is endorsed and or associated by some of these other people should make you say literally "oh my god"!


 
Birds of a feather, right?

I suppose the silver lining on that cloud of confusion would have to be at least you know if somebody is endorsed and or associated by or with these people, you know what their opinion is worth...


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## Chris Parker (Dec 4, 2010)

Oh, I could give you a list.... including the latest, who is beyond worrying, really.


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## ronin7411 (Dec 13, 2010)

Hey Chris, if you don't mind me asking you a question are you so quick to dismiss Anthony's videos on the Bujinkan because your style of Ninjutsu is derived from the Bujinkan because when I clicked on your link in your signature it says this on its homepage: 

Sensei Wayne Roy is the founder of Ninjutsu in Australia, and is a world  leader in the development of effective training programs based on the  Japanese martial art of ninjutsu.

Originally a Student of Nagato  Sensei, and Grandmaster Hatsumi, Wayne Roy has continued to evolve the  traditional techniques of old into a dynamic and effective modern art  form.

These are the last of his videos and apparently someone else from the Bujinkan tried to prove him wrong but yet everything is not coming up clear on the Bujinkan's lineage. 






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZCEO2rFRhw&feature=related


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## Chris Parker (Dec 13, 2010)

Johhny.

A few things. First, why did you link the same video twice? Okay, forget that one. Second, you may be interested to know that I am Dgmgl on you-tube. Third, and I didn't want to necessarily do this, you may want to check out the following thread on MAP. Especially the last few pages.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97793

I am not quick to dismiss Antony because of our history as part of the Bujinkan, but because he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about, what he is doing, he constantly shows no understanding of Japanese culture, language, traditions, martial arts, history, or anything that may actually give him any credibility in this field whatsoever. His own history and hist story change constantly.

Read the other thread, and see why not just Bujinkan members, but anyone with any understanding of Japanese martial arts, whether they support the Bujinkan story or not, consider the guy, in the words of a member of a Koryu there, a moron, and when he showed Antony's clips to his Japanese friends, they asked if Antony has any mental issues that we are unaware of. And that was a serious, non-joking question. Nothing he says has any credibility. So, we don't care. Okay?


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## ronin7411 (Dec 14, 2010)

Human error I admit it here is the one that was suppose to go there 






I read your link no matter who train with in the martial arts you always going to be having someone criticizing you for doing so saying who train with is a fraud or your style isn't effective in combat you can't please everybody.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 14, 2010)

ronin7411 said:


> Hey Chris, if you don't mind me asking you a question are you so quick to dismiss Anthony's videos on the Bujinkan because your style of Ninjutsu is derived from the Bujinkan because when I clicked on your link in your signature it says this on its homepage:



I don't want to speak for Chris, but *I think* Chris dismisses Anthony's opinions on anything related to ninjutsu, because Anthony has shown to be ignorant of the art, the history, and has had no credible training in either Bujinkan or Genbukan, despite his insistence of having trained in both at the same time.
That, and the fact that he does not understand the language or the culture.

Basically, the same as I think.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 14, 2010)

ronin7411 said:


> I read your link no matter who train with in the martial arts you always going to be having someone criticizing you for doing so saying who train with is a fraud or your style isn't effective in combat you can't please everybody.



Sorry man, can you repeat that in English?


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 14, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> Sorry man, can you repeat that in English?



Let me take a stab at it:

I read your link*.* *n**N*o matter who*m* *you* train with in the martial arts*,* you *are* always going to *be having * *have* someone criticizing you for doing so*,* saying *that* who*m* *you* train with is a fraud or *that* your style isn't effective in combat*.* *y**Y*ou can't please everybody.

Granted. This is perhaps petty of me to do. But it illustrates the importance of using proper grammar and punctuation if you want to get a point across.

[yt]Mj6QqCH7g0Q[/yt]


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 14, 2010)

As for the argument: it is true that the world of ninjutsu is filled with controverse.
However, dear Anthony has had no formal training in any of the legit organizations. He apparently said that 'his teacher' told him he was as good as any 4th dan. He also does not understand the art, the culture or the language, and claims to have received a full transmission of the ninjutsu (related) part of TSKS ryu.

So all in all, I'd say that he is not exactly painting a picture that correlates with anything related to authentic ninjutsu.


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