# Starting a Training Group



## gregtca (Sep 14, 2010)

Hi all, basically i have been asked to help ppl / show ppl / train ppl with techniques , the basic's, i learnt over the years in the bujinkan system, in a small country town which i live in. 
 Now that i dislike all politics & have no firm links to anyone or "ninjutsu system" , i was wondering if anyone would like to comment on this situation. 
I dont claim to be anything other then what i am, just an older , hopefully wiser student .Was graded to 1st kyu, way back in the 80's by W. Roy.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 15, 2010)

Are you going to train again as well?
Because if you haven't trained in a long time, and you were never a master level instructor, then chances are that you have forgotten quite a few things, and are passing them on not quite correctly.

Additionally, if you don't train anymore, then your students will not be able to get beyond the level where you are now.

Those are my 2 biggest thoughts on the issue.
If you will train again, then I think there shouldn't be a problem.


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## gregtca (Sep 15, 2010)

Thankyou for your reply, as you said i was no master instructor, 
i have many resources for training today, not like the old days,
I never said i stopped training , just that i stopped training with any school , this was due to many things over the years, mainly politics in the bujinkan & various ppl, but i see that many things have come out into the open about the early years & how the ppl got to where they are.

No just thinking of a friendly group of ppl learning together , thats all , dont give a rats about ranks , belts just hold up ya pants after all ,


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 15, 2010)

gregtca said:


> No just thinking of a friendly group of ppl learning together , thats all , dont give a rats about ranks , belts just hold up ya pants after all ,



I wasn't talking about belts or grades.
If you got to 1st kyu, then there is a ton of stuff you haven't learned yet, as well as a number of things that were never told or corrected. You can continue to train the things you already knew, but without a sensei you will not be able to advance. And I don't mean in rank but in actual technical content

Since you can't pass on what you didn't receive, what you teach will be incomplete and the people in your group will not be able to get beyond that point either.


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## gregtca (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you for reply , point well taken


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## Chris Parker (Sep 15, 2010)

Hi Greg,

Who were you training under when you recieved your 1st Kyu? And where abouts are you now? There is always the possibility of starting an official study group, so you will have the support of a network, and some guidance in your helping others.


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## Indagator (Sep 15, 2010)

Perhaps it may be best to double-check that you have all the knowledge and context that would be required of a shodan before commencing the teaching of others, in order to ensure that you are leading your students along the right path - otherwise, it may be advantageous not to refer to your techings as specifically belonging to "ninjutsu".
Take what you want from what I have to say; I speak with no authority but merely offer an outside perspective.

My teacher is a remnant of a collapsed dojo in a small town, and I am his sole student. So I can on some levels empathise with what you have to say. However, my teacher has been endorsed by his own teacher, who commands a large amount of respect and authority within the Ninjutsu schools of my area. Thus I can ensure that what I am learning is still ninjutsu, and although in physical training there are only two of us, in reality there is so much more in spirit.

If you have not already come across it, please have a look at this site for an example of what you speak of (non-political ninjutsu). It's a pretty common site, as most search engines turn it up rather regularly on any ninjutsu-related search.
http://www.mobilemouse.co.nz/ninjutsu/
Although this teacher is in some obscure little country, he has ensured that he attained the level of (at least) shodan within the Bujinkan and also the Genbukan. Hence his basis of "non-political" ninjutsu is in the sense that he has significant experience at a credible level of both of these major schools (as well as, I have heard, a few other neo schools and the like) but still has attained a suitable level to teach.

Put it this way: if I get a diploma in a given field, I would not feel qualified to teach a stand-alone class on the subject. I would feel competent enough to assist other diploma students in moving towards the same goal as that which I have attained, but none further. 
Same with a degree.
A Bachelor's degree and I would consider that enough base knowledge had been accumulated to teach the basics of the subject right up until the level below that of my own.
A Master's degree as above.
A doctorate I would consider being a qualification which merits stand-alone teaching (although a lot of this pertains to the relevant knowledge one gains within the field based on the teachings of the authorities on the relevant subject.)

That's my .02 - take from it what you will, I hope it is helpful to you but if not, perhaps some other reader will find it of use at some level.


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## Indagator (Sep 15, 2010)

Thought I should also add, just to be clear, that I'm only recommending achieving shodan as at least a minimum for teaching others; it would, of course, best to pursue even further depths of comprehension of the art as well.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 15, 2010)

I think the best course of action for you would be to restart your training under an instructor and then see if they would support a training group that you lead.  This would give you support and correction in this endeavor!


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## bribrius (Sep 15, 2010)

just don't label or be specific of what you are teaching. You teaching someone something is better than them not knowing anything. If i had to guess, much of the arts were passed by friends and familys and not by certifications. Someone created them, they evolved, cultures passed them. They probably were not all authorized by anything to instruct. But the art or variant passed from friend to friend, father to son, comrade to comrade. If you are honest about what you are, I see informal teaching helpful to someone who knows even less.  And you can always tell them to seek something else more formal when you believe your training group has nothing left to offer them


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## gregtca (Sep 15, 2010)

Thankyou all , very good points by everyone.
1. my life style & location dont allow me to be a full time student with a teacher.
2. chris - i was 1 of the original roy students when he started a "group in melbourne , them M Brinkman , a break , then brinkman , coote, also trianed in geelong & ballarat..
3.Indagator, yes very good advice 
4. Brian re point 1, thanks 
5. bribrius , thats the way i thought i might show other ppl.

Thankyou all for your really good advice ,

Greg


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## Dean Whittle (Sep 16, 2010)

Greg,

You'll find Chris Parker (above) is Wayne Roy's representative in Melbourne, alternatively I can PM you Mr Roy's email address so that you can contact him directly. If that's the way you want to go.

What small town are you based in at present?

With respect


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## gregtca (Sep 16, 2010)

Thank you Dean, im in camperdown , vic , work 6 days a week, i dont think it would be fair on an instructor that i could not get to his training very often, will have to think about this whole thing , im not 20 something anymore either, will be in touch, Regards Greg


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## Dean Whittle (Sep 16, 2010)

Greg,

We're all in a similar boat with work and other commitments restricting the amount of time we can spend on training. 

If you want to pursue training within Mr Roy's organisation your best bet is to get in touch with either Chris or Mr Roy directly, but you'll find that things have changed considerably since you last trained with us.

All the best in whatever course you take.

With respect


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## gregtca (Sep 16, 2010)

Thankyou Dean, i will see what happens in the future as changes are happening early next year, i expect the training to be alot different , might just concentrate on basics for now, regards , Greg


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## jks9199 (Sep 19, 2010)

Practice your basics; you have no hope of teaching what you haven't practiced consistently in a long time.

Find a way to arrange training; it's clear that there are possibilities.  You don't necessarily need to go to class 4 nights a week or more.  I know some very skilled, very knowledgeable martial artists whose only option was to arrange to train one or two weekends every month or two.  They simply practiced diligently what they were taught in those intense sessions.


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## stephen (Sep 25, 2010)

bribrius said:


> You teaching someone something is better than them not knowing anything.



I completely 100% disagree with this. It's better to not teach anything.

I agree with the previous comment that the OP should find a dojo, train, and then, well, train some more. But, if you must 'teach', make sure you have an instructor's support.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 25, 2010)

You should only teach them 'something' if that 'something' is correct. If you teach them things that are wrong or incorrect, then that will cause them problems if they ever need those skills, and if they ever find a real dojo, they will spend a lot of time to unlearn those bad habits.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 25, 2010)

gregtca said:


> might just concentrate on basics for now, regards , Greg


 
What are the basics?


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## Troy Wideman (Sep 27, 2010)

Hello Indagator,

My name is Troy Wideman and I run the Genbukan for Canada. I noticed you showed a link for a dojo with a instructor by the name of Jim Gould who supposedly from the website claims a rank of Genbukan Nidan. I personally have not heard of this gentleman. I noticed on his website he shows his membership booklets to other organizations but not the Genbukan. When and where did he receive his Nidan from the Genbukan and what was his Genbukan membership number. Who did he train under to get the Genbukan rank.

Kind REgards,

Troy Wideman


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## George Kohler (Sep 28, 2010)

Wideman Kyoshi,

I believe Jim was in the Genbukan back in the late 80's early 90's while he was in England. I think he was with Mark Lutman and Peter Brown during his time in the Genbukan.

Regards,
George


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## Troy Wideman (Sep 28, 2010)

Hi George,

Ahhh that explains alot. Thanks for clearing that up. Things were alot different back then.

How are you by the way? I haven't spoke to John in a long while, is he still over seas.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Indagator (Sep 30, 2010)

Troy Wideman said:


> Hello Indagator,
> 
> My name is Troy Wideman and I run the Genbukan for Canada. I noticed you showed a link for a dojo with a instructor by the name of Jim Gould who supposedly from the website claims a rank of Genbukan Nidan. I personally have not heard of this gentleman. I noticed on his website he shows his membership booklets to other organizations but not the Genbukan. When and where did he receive his Nidan from the Genbukan and what was his Genbukan membership number. Who did he train under to get the Genbukan rank.
> 
> ...


 
Looks like somebody else has supplied the answer to that, which is good because I cannot.
I do not know Jim Gould, however his site consistently comes up in google searches related to ninjutsu, this is how I have become familiar with his website.

I posted the link in reference to the OP's comments regarding non-political training, which Jim Gould also mentions on his site.

Sorry if I have caused any confusion.


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