# Real Aikido Street Fight, maybe



## JP3 (Sep 1, 2017)

I just ran across this video... the guy featured in the video seems to know what he's doing, and the fast tempo of the action does indeed make it seem "real," but what do you all think?  Staged?  Stage-ish?  A bit scripted, maybe? I can't quite tell.






Also, the comments below the video are... interesting. As per usual for youtube stuff.


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## O'Malley (Sep 1, 2017)

Staged, of course.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2017)

Really?

Of couse it is staged.

So for comparison.


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## thanson02 (Sep 1, 2017)

Looks like some of our self-defense active dills.  Nice.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 1, 2017)

Eh, okay for a demo, but the repeated attempts of uke to throw a lunge punch with the muzzle of a gun were pretty silly.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Really?
> 
> Of couse it is staged.
> 
> So for comparison.


I really like that video, especially the throw at about 1:10 in. Not often you see someone pull that one off in live randori.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I really like that video, especially the throw at about 1:10 in. Not often you see someone pull that one off in live randori.



Yeah. Ditto.


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## marques (Sep 2, 2017)

I think it is a good demonstration. Of course they don't want to show incompetence or brake bones. Why shouldn't they plan a choreography?


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## MA_Student (Sep 2, 2017)

100% staged


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I just ran across this video... the guy featured in the video seems to know what he's doing, and the fast tempo of the action does indeed make it seem "real," but what do you all think?  Staged?  Stage-ish?  A bit scripted, maybe? I can't quite tell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A very nice demo. Uke manages to not be too terribly compliant, and nage's speed made it clear that the techniques don't require someone holding out an arm while he wanders around it - the most common indictment of Aikido, based upon what it looks like in teaching and slow training. The most impressive part, to me, was  uke; he took a lot of falls on that pavement at speed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I really like that video, especially the throw at about 1:10 in. Not often you see someone pull that one off in live randori.


Tony, do you know a Japanese name for that technique? It's in our repertoire, but all the names were changed to English when the art came to the US. We call that "2-on-1" (a complete misnomer and accurate, all at once, since it's named for uke having 2 hands on 1 of nage's, and that's rarely how it works).


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## jobo (Sep 2, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I just ran across this video... the guy featured in the video seems to know what he's doing, and the fast tempo of the action does indeed make it seem "real," but what do you all think?  Staged?  Stage-ish?  A bit scripted, maybe? I can't quite tell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


its either staged or he keeps giving him the gun back?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> its either staged or he keeps giving him the gun back?


And he's being attacked by someone who uses rubber implements of destruction.


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## JP3 (Sep 2, 2017)

Hey... I use rubber AND plastic implements of destruction all the time.  Trying to work my way up to ones made of paper.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Hey... I use rubber AND plastic implements of destruction all the time.  Trying to work my way up to ones made of paper.


Assault...you're doing it wrong.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> its either staged or he keeps giving him the gun back?


That's what you do when you are really good.  You give the gun back and tell them to try again.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I just ran across this video... the guy featured in the video seems to know what he's doing, and the fast tempo of the action does indeed make it seem "real," but what do you all think?  Staged?  Stage-ish?  A bit scripted, maybe? I can't quite tell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't like the gun demos.  Not realistic in terms of what the guy does with the gun.  Most criminals with a gun aren't going to try to get that close to you with the gun.   It's a gun so there's no reason why someone should be trying to press a gun against someone's head.


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2017)

Nice. But, you can't really go wrong with pink and white tires for a back drop.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's what you do when you are really good.  You give the gun back and tell them to try again.


"C'mon man, that wasn't even worth the effort! Here, try again, and make it fun this time."


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't like the gun demos.  Not realistic in terms of what the guy does with the gun.  Most criminals with a gun aren't going to try to get that close to you with the gun.   It's a gun so there's no reason why someone should be trying to press a gun against someone's head.


The only takeaways you can do is when they are stupid enough to get close. And it happens more often than I'd have thought - a number of decent videos of this stupidity (and people taking advantage of it).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The only takeaways you can do is when they are stupid enough to get close.


Gun is used as "long range" weapon. You just don't find any video that teach you how to disarm "bow and arrow".


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Gun is used as "long range" weapon. You just don't find any video that teach you how to disarm "bow and arrow".


Gun _*should*_ be used as a distance weapon. It isn't always used properly.


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## Juany118 (Oct 5, 2017)

Definitely a demo BUT against an untrained "street" attacker I have used what you see at ~13 seconds and ~16 seconds effectively.  The take down in response to the kick is especially effective because most "street trained" people simply don't know how to effectively kick while minimizing your own exposure.


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## Juany118 (Oct 5, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Gun is used as "long range" weapon. You just don't find any video that teach you how to disarm "bow and arrow".


The thing is in a "typical" street encounter the person with the gun is trying to rob you.  Because of this the tool is primarily there for intimidation value and they will often get rather close.


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## Didymus (Oct 9, 2017)

For one, as soon as he's using it to "win a fight" it's no longer aikido, technically.  That first one was a bit painful with extra motions...  but I see some principles in there that come FROM aiki...


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 9, 2017)

Didymus said:


> For one, as soon as he's using it to "win a fight" it's no longer aikido, technically.  That first one was a bit painful with extra motions...  but I see some principles in there that come FROM aiki...


This is the aspect of Ueshiba's Aikido I don't really like - for me, personally. In a self-defense situation, I care about the welfare of the attacker only after I've taken care of myself and any innocents involved. I am absolutely there to "win".


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## Didymus (Oct 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is the aspect of Ueshiba's Aikido I don't really like - for me, personally. In a self-defense situation, I care about the welfare of the attacker only after I've taken care of myself and any innocents involved. I am absolutely there to "win".



And there are better styles to accomplish that. If that's what you're doing, it's not aikido. 

Doesn't mean an aikidoka is wrong if someone gets hurt... If they offer you force, and you correct them and direct their force down and they fail to fall properly, or resist and hurt THEMSELVES ... meh... That wasn't wise of them.  You're still doing Aiki. 

But if you're putting your own force in TO try to hurt them, aiki isn't what you're doing.


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## Didymus (Oct 9, 2017)

Biggest time i use aiki is with my kids.  I'm not trying to "win a fight" by hurting my opponent... but if they start flailing, doesn't take much to hold their hand a bit different for a nice gentle yonkyo.  Shouldn't hurt at all, just doesn't mechanically allow for much choice in where they go.   Now, they CAN experience some pain if they fight it hard enough, but that's just them making themselves uncomfortable. 

People get bored of fighting when they're the only one's involved.


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## Juany118 (Oct 9, 2017)

Didymus said:


> For one, as soon as he's using it to "win a fight" it's no longer aikido, technically.  That first one was a bit painful with extra motions...  but I see some principles in there that come FROM aiki...


Not necessarily, it all depends on the Aikido you study.  If you study Yoshinkan Aikido, as but one example, you are learning to "win" the fight.


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## Juany118 (Oct 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is the aspect of Ueshiba's Aikido I don't really like - for me, personally. In a self-defense situation, I care about the welfare of the attacker only after I've taken care of myself and any innocents involved. I am absolutely there to "win".



The thing is more than a few Lineages whose "heads" we're "blessed" to teach by Ueshiba Sensei do teach to win.  Yes he himself changed his personal attitudes but he never disavowed the manner of teaching of these personal students of his.


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## Fuhrer Drumpf (Oct 9, 2017)

Didymus said:


> And there are better styles to accomplish that. If that's what you're doing, it's not aikido.
> 
> Doesn't mean an aikidoka is wrong if someone gets hurt... If they offer you force, and you correct them and direct their force down and they fail to fall properly, or resist and hurt THEMSELVES ... meh... That wasn't wise of them.  You're still doing Aiki.
> 
> But if you're putting your own force in TO try to hurt them, aiki isn't what you're doing.



Aikido and Judo branched from jujitsu at the same time. Aikido is all fluffy theory and Judo is practical. Note the differences between the styles.


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## Juany118 (Oct 10, 2017)

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Aikido and Judo branched from jujitsu at the same time. Aikido is all fluffy theory and Judo is practical. Note the differences between the styles.



Not all Aikido. Aikido has a host of variations. You have those like Yoshinkan Aikido that are much closer to the Jiu-Jitsu roots.  There is another, the name of which escapes me at the moment because I never studied it, which actually has a firm competition aspect which some of the "purists" question as much as they do Yoshinkan.

At this point using the word Aikido is almost as broad a term as using the word karate.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 10, 2017)

I wonder who was Steven Seagal's teacher...


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## Juany118 (Oct 10, 2017)

As an example...




This is Yoshinkan.  Yes it's a demonstration but as you can see most of the techniques are much closer to Jiu-Jitsu.  The "circles" are tighter, you don't just let go but use pain compliance (which can quickly move into a break or dislocation), many of the techniques are actually similar to those of Judo as well because they are both closer to the "root" than what Aikido EVENTUALLY became.  One has to remember that the founder of Yoshinkan, Gozo Shioda, was one of the first students of the Ueshiba.  What he learned from Ueshiba and what Ueshiba taught nearer the end of his life, we're different things.  In Yoshinkan you will even enter with strikes if called for as the first example in the video shows us.


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## Juany118 (Oct 10, 2017)

Tarrycat said:


> I wonder who was Steven Seagal's teacher...


 
His style is named after the Tenshin Dojo.  The difference between "his" Aikido, by their own admission, is not in style but in mindset.  They use the more typical Aikido Techniques with a combative mindset.  I have even read interviews with practitioners of the "Tenshin School" say that Yoshinkan and Tomiki count as separate styles but that they aren't different enough to qualify as such themselves.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2017)

Didymus said:


> And there are better styles to accomplish that. If that's what you're doing, it's not aikido.
> 
> Doesn't mean an aikidoka is wrong if someone gets hurt... If they offer you force, and you correct them and direct their force down and they fail to fall properly, or resist and hurt THEMSELVES ... meh... That wasn't wise of them.  You're still doing Aiki.
> 
> But if you're putting your own force in TO try to hurt them, aiki isn't what you're doing.


That was Ueshiba’s interprétation of aiki - at least later in his life.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2017)

Fuhrer Drumpf said:


> Aikido and Judo branched from jujitsu at the same time. Aikido is all fluffy theory and Judo is practical. Note the differences between the styles.


That appears to be based on one area of Ueshiba’s art. There’s more Judo-like technique and “harder” options in some branches.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Not all Aikido. Aikido has a host of variations. You have those like Yoshinkan Aikido that are much closer to the Jiu-Jitsu roots.  There is another, the name of which escapes me at the moment because I never studied it, which actually has a firm competition aspect which some of the "purists" question as much as they do Yoshinkan.
> 
> At this point using the word Aikido is almost as broad a term as using the word karate.


Tomiki is the one you were thinking of.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> As an example...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I know why folks sometimes ask if Nihon Goshin Aikido is related to Yoshinkan. All I had seen in the past was some of Shioda’s old videos, and he moved differently in those than this instructor does.


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## Juany118 (Oct 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Now I know why folks sometimes ask if Nihon Goshin Aikido is related to Yoshinkan. All I had seen in the past was some of Shioda’s old videos, and he moved differently in those than this instructor does.



Agreed.  I write off some of the videos of Shioda to two things.  1. Especially in the post 70's videos he is being a bit of a showman, and well he was born in 1915.  2. If you watch some of the videos closely he is just so damn good.  He not only intimately knows his own body but the physics of what is going on that it is just eerie.  In a video like the one I showed however you have a Sensei who is not just trying to demonstrate how good he is and the potential of what you CAN be if you master it.  He is trying to show that it is a practical fighting art.  Often in videos, as you well know,  context is everything.


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## Tarrycat (Oct 10, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> His style is named after the Tenshin Dojo.  The difference between "his" Aikido, by their own admission, is not in style but in mindset.  They use the more typical Aikido Techniques with a combative mindset.  I have even read interviews with practitioners of the "Tenshin School" say that Yoshinkan and Tomiki count as separate styles but that they aren't different enough to qualify as such themselves.



Very informative! Thank you*


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## Juany118 (Oct 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Tomiki is the one you were thinking of.



Thanks for that.  I always forget that for some reason, even though almost all the competition videos you see are Tomiki.  Drives me nuts when I forget.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 10, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Thanks for that.  I always forget that for some reason, even though almost all the competition videos you see are Tomiki.  Drives me nuts when I forget.


I never...um...never...do that thing where I can’t remember. What’s that called?


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