# LEOs and MMA.



## arnisador (May 25, 2008)

I posted this on FMAT:

*Beat Cops*

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]*Why the Police Are Becoming 
 Some of the World's Toughest Fighters*[/FONT]



> From the beginning, cage fighting -- an aggressive combination of punching, kicking, wrestling and carnage that is illegal in 18 states -- has had a fundamental challenge: Where to find the toughest, meanest, most violent people in the world who aren't already behind bars. Increasingly, the answer is the police station.
> 
> 
> Some of the biggest names in this sport, whose main league is the Ultimate Fighting Championship, are police officers. Sean "the Cannon" Gannon, a Boston police officer, achieved notoriety when he defeated street fighter Kimbo Slice in a bare-knuckles, backyard brawl. "Big John" McCarthy is the most well-known referee; he just retired from his day job as defensive-tactics instructor for the Los Angeles Police Department.
> ...


A different take on this article:
*Sean Gannon to Re-Emerge From Obscurity?*



> Although naming Gannon as one of &#8220;the biggest names in this sport&#8221; is laughable, the article does contain one very compelling bit of info regarding the relationship between law enforcement and MMA:



Here's a group that needs real (albeit somewhat specialized) self-defense...if this truly is a trend, I find it interesting!


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## Jai (May 25, 2008)

Nice reading, both sides of it. I have to agree really that the future of MMA and some of it's toughest fighters of the future lay within the ranks of law enforcement.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 25, 2008)

Doesn't strike me as especially odd, since back in the day when it was boxers and wrestlers who had the "bad boy rep" on American streets back in past times, cops used to train in those too. More than one movie I watched from those times had someone playing a down and out boxer who'd retired or otherwise couldn't/didn't want to fight anymore, who always had a friend who suggested to him: "Well, there's always the department"......


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2008)

Well they do have to know how to fight so it seems to be the right place for them.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 25, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Well they do have to know how to fight so it seems to be the right place for them.


 

Exactly, plus the fact most every idiot likely to go out and cause trouble is gonna imitate what they see on TV when they fight so, as a natural extension,  MMA style stuff is what will be coming at these officers.


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## Deaf Smith (May 25, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Exactly, plus the fact most every idiot likely to go out and cause trouble is gonna imitate what they see on TV when they fight so, as a natural extension, MMA style stuff is what will be coming at these officers.


 
Andy,

And that is why I wish they would stick to the old Matt Dillion 'Gunsmoke' shooting stances and Jet Li moviie type stunts on TV. Lots of people are watching and the more realistic and practicle the methods, the more it is possible for the idiots to know just enough to hurt someone.

I'm not saying censorship, but I just don't want them to so very good technique on TV.

Deaf


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## KenpoTex (May 26, 2008)

It seems that a lot of LEO's are finally "waking up to smell the coffee" vis-a-vis the serious threat posed by an attacker with an even moderate level of MMA training (though, to their credit, there are quite a few who have been in the game for a long time)
There was a pretty good article by Steve Moses (Garland, Tx SWAT officer and firearms instructor) in the March issue of SWAT magazine that addressed this problem.  

Here's a cool video on the topic from Burton Richardson


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## MJS (May 26, 2008)

With all of the videos out there of LEOs getting into life and death struggles with violent suspects, I'm the first to say that many depts. are in serious need of revamping their self defense lessons.  And yes, in discussions like this, people talk about the difference fighting someone under the influence vs. not under the influence, and yes, I see there is a difference.  But, I feel that, esp. after watching some clips, there has to be a better way to bring someone under control.

As for these articles...I think its good.  The level of conditioning that people get from MMA is awesome.  These guys are in great shape and seem to have never ending cardio.  Look at Randy.  Of course, IMO, I feel that the training needs to be modified, as you can't expect a cop to do the same thing he does in the cage.  In other words, its not the job of the cop to trade blows with a suspect, like he'd trade blows in the cage.  But, if he can use the control/submission techs. to better control a suspect, thats great!

Some proponents of BJJ have used in their defense, that the military has adopted BJJ/MMA training.  They claim this to justify its claim of "The Best" when people speak down on it.  Well, if the military uses it, it must be good.  

I work with a guy who's in the reserves.  I've seen pictures of him, while he was in Iraq, in full gear.  It'd be physically impossible for him to roll around with someone fully geared up.  Now, this doesnt mean that the stuff thats taught to the military and LEOs can't be modified to suit their needs, what they're wearing, etc.  

The Gracies offer their GRAPPLE program to LEOs.  I assume its designed for them specifically and something different than you'd see in their typical grappling class for regular students.  

Some MMA/BJJ training to supplement some solid empty hand/weapon work is a great mix IMO.

Mike


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 26, 2008)

MJS said:


> With all of the videos out there of LEOs getting into life and death struggles with violent suspects, I'm the first to say that many depts. are in serious need of revamping their self defense lessons. And yes, in discussions like this, people talk about the difference fighting someone under the influence vs. not under the influence, and yes, I see there is a difference. But, I feel that, esp. after watching some clips, there has to be a better way to bring someone under control.
> 
> As for these articles...I think its good. The level of conditioning that people get from MMA is awesome. These guys are in great shape and seem to have never ending cardio. Look at Randy. Of course, IMO, I feel that the training needs to be modified, as you can't expect a cop to do the same thing he does in the cage. In other words, its not the job of the cop to trade blows with a suspect, like he'd trade blows in the cage. But, if he can use the control/submission techs. to better control a suspect, thats great!
> 
> ...


 
I have to agree Mike particularly with the last sentence that some MMA/BJJ training to supplement empty hand/weapon work is a great mix.  I do not think that any one thing is correct all the time.  However having arrested people in the past and eventually in most of those cases ending up on the ground MMA/BJJ training does help.  It's weakeness of course is weapons training but it can be modified to account for that.


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## jks9199 (May 26, 2008)

There's a very simple reality involved.

Training takes time, costs money, introduces risk of injury, and can create a liability in the street if someone takes a MMA technique and hurts someone.

DT training is considered specialized enough that most states that certify LE instructors require separate DT instruction.  This takes time and money.  Time an officer spends in official training also means time that officer isn't on the street.  An officer that gets injured in training means an officer not on the street, medical treatment costs, and more problems.  And if an officer uses an MMA technique like a submission arm lock, and injures someone, there will almost certainly be a lawsuit...  LOTS of money, even if everything was done properly.  (I'm deliberately and consciously ignoring the whole MMA is a sport, cops don't do submission, etc. because all of that could be handled within a proper training system.)

Many agencies don't even do regular refreshers on BASIC DT.  Even fewer require advancing training.  Our academy provides an in-service groundfighting school; I've heard it's very good, but haven't had the time to take it.  Which lets me highlight the time problem...  Every state has various in-service training requirements and often adds new special new requirements for training, like anti-bias training or Alzheimer's, or dealing with purple people eaters...  (Yeah, we do often think the topics are silly... and common sense.)   It's hard to squeeze the training in.

Some to many cops do train in, or have practiced, various martial arts.  Many of us start finding out quickly that what works on the street tends to be the most basic stuff...


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 26, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Many of us start finding out quickly that what works on the street tends to be the most basic stuff...


 
Absolutely good basics are a must.  Whether it is PPCT and Defensive Tactics, MMA, BJJ, Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Eskrima, Kali, IRT, Kempo, etc.  Basic skill sets are essential if you are going to make what you do work.  Big motor movements are also simply a must when everything goes south and your struggling for your life.


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## Xue Sheng (May 26, 2008)

I think it was last year I was checking out a local MMA school and they had a lot of LEOs as students. And I have tgo tell you if we had 36 hour days or if I didn't have to work I might go train MMA for a bit myself. 

Also something interesting, at least to me, many of the top Sanshou fighters in China are also LEOs. Go to YouTube and you can find a lot of the LEO fights and there are even US LEOs vs. Chinese LEO fights as well.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Absolutely good basics are a must. Whether it is PPCT and Defensive Tactics, MMA, BJJ, Budo Taijutsu, Modern Arnis, Eskrima, Kali, IRT, Kempo, etc. Basic skill sets are essential if you are going to make what you do work. Big motor movements are also simply a must when everything goes south and your struggling for your life.



Agreed and the sad thing is that many of the TMA schools around today do not teach them with the same intensity that you will find in an MMA school or a Sports Sanshou school. 

More than once I have seriously considered going to train at the local MMA School and I got to tell you even though I trained Police/Military Sanda (Sanshou) if there was a Sports Sanshou school in my area I would be there already. Nothing against MMA I just tend to be drawn more towards CMA.


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## Imminent (May 26, 2008)

Okay, perhaps I am biased but the reality is that MMA or traditional MA training requires large amounts of time and are still based on social violence, i.e. they recognize rules and limitations.  Training to survive life and death criminal violence does NOT take hours and hours of training.  We teach it and instill proficiency in hours and days not weeks and months and years.  MMA is still a sport and how many criminals are trained in any MA really, the most dangerous ones I know, many incarcerated for killing officers, judges, politicians and the like are physical wrecks with no formal training at all.  The answer is very simple, induce reaction that can't be overridden and survival becomes one person doing it to another, it is NEVER a competition between skilled and unskilled, it is who gets to the point of inducing traumatic injury on the other first.  Period. Just observing what the time on the street among goons and thugs teaches from my perspective for what it is worth.


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## redfang (May 26, 2008)

In North Carolina, where I work and live, a group of LEO/MA's have developed a program called Keikan Aiki Jitsu, specifically for LEO's. They developed it as a belted program that blends Aikido, BJJ, striking techniques, pressure point techniques, with hand weapons, firearms, rapid deployment, handcuffing etc. As most of the instructors have TMA backgrounds, students of the program work on personalized Kata that utilizes LEO specific techniques. Later levels of the program familiarize students with TMA etiquite. Then, after they had worked out what they wanted, They sat down with Prof. Ernie Cates to smooth it out and get his seal of approval.

All in all it's a nice program for LEO's. Currently, a lot of the classes are offered through Wake Tech Community College in Raleigh. It's a fair piece from where I live, but I've been trying to get to some of the seminars that they are offering. Google Keikan Aiki Jitsu and it will pull up the Wake classes and the website of an Aikido school in Wilmington NC, that is run by one of the Keikan instructors.


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## Dave Leverich (May 26, 2008)

Sounds like a great program redfang!
I know of some that do BJJ with emphasis on weapon control etc, but it sounds like this takes it to a completely new level.


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## D Dempsey (May 26, 2008)

Dave Leverich said:


> Sounds like a great program redfang!
> I know of some that do BJJ with emphasis on weapon control etc, but it sounds like this takes it to a completely new level.


It isn't that much of a change really.  I did it the first time when I was in the Army and I've done so a few times since with some of the LEOs that I do BJJ with.  Since the main emphasis of BJJ is positional dominance and control it usually doesn't take the guys that long to adjust to a new element.  I thought the most difficult was a with a knife.


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## profesormental (May 27, 2008)

Greetings.

It has to be remembered that before, many of what we call traditional martial arts had the traditional methods of training in them... tough conditioning, tough fighting, etc. which would bankrupt many of them today with law suits and liability suits.

MMA in many instances has brought back the appeal of tough sparring. 

On another note, most LEO's I know don't train more than their compulsory courses and trainings. They overpower with numbers and weapons. Why would they want to focus effort into having excellent skills when they can get by with the minimum and use their time in other pursuits that are to their liking?

LEO's that train are a minority. Just as people that train MMA are a HUGE minority. I say this from empirical evidence taking into account the number of MMA schools vs other martial arts schools that do not take a "tough" approach.

And to put it in context, the number if people that train martial methods at all is again, a huge minority.

I enjoy this topic. Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2008)

Sorry but a "_huge minority"_ is an oxymoron.


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## MJS (May 27, 2008)

Imminent said:


> Okay, perhaps I am biased but the reality is that MMA or traditional MA training requires large amounts of time and are still based on social violence, i.e. they recognize rules and limitations. Training to survive life and death criminal violence does NOT take hours and hours of training. We teach it and instill proficiency in hours and days not weeks and months and years. MMA is still a sport and how many criminals are trained in any MA really, the most dangerous ones I know, many incarcerated for killing officers, judges, politicians and the like are physical wrecks with no formal training at all. The answer is very simple, induce reaction that can't be overridden and survival becomes one person doing it to another, it is NEVER a competition between skilled and unskilled, it is who gets to the point of inducing traumatic injury on the other first. Period. Just observing what the time on the street among goons and thugs teaches from my perspective for what it is worth.


 
I beg to differ on a few points you made.  While some things that are taught can be learned in a quick fashion, it doesn't mean that the student should cease practice.  I'll use Krav Maga as an example.  In a short time, they claim they can teach some effective stuff, and IMO, yes, they can.  Its short, sweet and to the point.  But, if you want to really be solid with something, its still going to require a refresher.  It'd still be a good idea to run thru the material on a regular basis so you stay fresh.  Even running some scenario drills is a good idea.  If a cop fires his weapon just during the academy, and never goes to the range for practice, do you think he's going to be any better than someone who hits the range a few times a month?

If it was really possible to learn a few things and never have to do them again, the enrollment at every school in the world would be a quarter of what it is.

Mike


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2008)

I don't thnk the attraction of MMA for LEOs and the military is because of any self defence uses it has for them,most MA contain that. I think it's more the mind set of the fighters, the type of hard and disciplined training and the camaradie that suits them. LEOs and military people by their very nature are more inclined to step forward and put themselves on the line, we have quite a few fireman who also fight here and they all have in common their more adventurous natures where if they are interested in a martial art they want it to be one that stretches and challenges them. I'm sure there are TMAs that can go this but the other advantage of MMA we've found for our  soldiers is that there is no syllabus to follow so when they are unable to come to class because of duties, deployments etc they aren't missing anything as they can pick up where they left off when they are able to return.


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## Xue Sheng (May 27, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I don't thnk the attraction of MMA for LEOs and the military is because of any self defence uses it has for them,most MA contain that. I think it's more the mind set of the fighters, the type of hard and disciplined training and the camaradie that suits them. LEOs and military people by their very nature are more inclined to step forward and put themselves on the line, we have quite a few fireman who also fight here and they all have in common their more adventurous natures where if they are interested in a martial art they want it to be one that stretches and challenges them. I'm sure there are TMAs that can go this but the other advantage of MMA we've found for our soldiers is that there is no syllabus to follow so when they are unable to come to class because of duties, deployments etc they aren't missing anything as they can pick up where they left off when they are able to return.


 
Good points that I had not really considered. I just chalked it up to hard physical training that is needed to help keep in shape for the job.

And yes there are TMAs that can do this as well but IMO they are few and far between these days. Too many TMA light schools out there. 

This is also why IMO that some TMA styles are not so popular, one of the reasons is the training requires too much discipline and the other is the returns are not as quick as things like MMA, BJJ, Sanshou, etc.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2008)

I think it's basically finding a MA style that suits you and your life style. Most of us work shifts and have families so it's not always possible to study a style that going to take up a huge amount of time, many people who are interested in MMA already have a style or two under their belts (sorry lol) so MMA makes good sense for them.
We have miostly soldiers in our MMA club who will disappear to the sandy countries for six months at a time, before that they have exercises and such so any style that involves gradings and a fixed syllabus is diffucult for them to do. They enjoy the toughness of the training as it undoubtable helps with their army training but for the most part it's actually stress relieving for them, they enjoy fighting in the ring/cage. they enjoy the fighting but they also like the fact that under MMA rules they know they nor their opponent won't be damaged. Perhaps the military among you will understand what I mean? It's hard to explain.


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## Xue Sheng (May 27, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> It's hard to explain.


 
No need


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## Imminent (May 27, 2008)

MJS said:


> I beg to differ on a few points you made. While some things that are taught can be learned in a quick fashion, it doesn't mean that the student should cease practice. I'll use Krav Maga as an example. In a short time, they claim they can teach some effective stuff, and IMO, yes, they can. Its short, sweet and to the point. But, if you want to really be solid with something, its still going to require a refresher. It'd still be a good idea to run thru the material on a regular basis so you stay fresh. Even running some scenario drills is a good idea. If a cop fires his weapon just during the academy, and never goes to the range for practice, do you think he's going to be any better than someone who hits the range a few times a month?
> 
> If it was really possible to learn a few things and never have to do them again, the enrollment at every school in the world would be a quarter of what it is.
> 
> Mike


 

I never meant to imply that you should not stay fresh and train as often as possible.  For example you use krav maga, I am assuming not the commando krav maga.  While it is a combative module, we still consider it a sport combative, but it can teach relatively quickly and effectively.  We use a different set and while you can walk out and apply effectively all that we teach in a seminar, the more time you spend internalizing and going through modelling and visualization in the strike/break/throw patterns the easier it is to see attack vectors and learn the advanced body patterning.  There is never a point where you should stop trying to get better if your job puts you in harms way.  All I was attempting to say was that you can learn to inflict debilitating trauma without spending more than one day in a non-sport oriented environment.  It really is about the pedagogy used, if you aren't learning the principles but only a set of various techniques the recall under stress is far more difficult.  Your points concerning continued training are absolutely sound.  It gets to the point that the more you spend time breaking the specific target vectors in practice, the easier it is to commit through them when it hits the fan.


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## profesormental (May 28, 2008)

Tez3,

Yes, it is a correct oxymoron. I hope it was understood! 

And here's one for you! Right back at'cha!!



			
				Tez3 said:
			
		

> they enjoy the fighting but they also like the fact that under MMA rules they know they nor their opponent won't be damaged.



Hehe!

On a serious note, I have military students and the issue that their body is their main source of money is a major concern for some of them.

And I agree with your sentiments about MMA training.

Thanks for the great posts.

Juan M. Mercado


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## Tez3 (May 28, 2008)

profesormental said:


> Tez3,
> 
> Yes, it is a correct oxymoron. I hope it was understood!
> 
> ...


 
thank you!.
It's not so much they are bothered about injuries, one of them dislocated his shoulder in the club last week, its more that when they come back from Iraq and Afghanistan they have had their fill of death, destruction and injuries, not just of theirs but also of the civilian population so when they come back they enjoy the fighting but knowing it's ruled and as safe as we can make it while still be exciting.There they can be honourable warriors among themselves with no children or civilians involved.
Perhaps it's the same for LEOs, MMA and its fights are a world where you know where you are, there's rules and order but people can still be themselves. Perhaps it_ is_ a warrior thing.


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## MJS (May 28, 2008)

Imminent said:


> I never meant to imply that you should not stay fresh and train as often as possible. For example you use krav maga, I am assuming not the commando krav maga.


 
Yes, I was referring to the regular KM, not the CKM version. 



> While it is a combative module, we still consider it a sport combative, but it can teach relatively quickly and effectively.


 
Forgive me here, but how is KM viewed as a sport art?  IMO, I'd say its more along the lines of RBSD and guys like Wagner, Blauer, Thompson, etc.




> We use a different set and while you can walk out and apply effectively all that we teach in a seminar, the more time you spend internalizing and going through modelling and visualization in the strike/break/throw patterns the easier it is to see attack vectors and learn the advanced body patterning.


 
I'd certainly be interested in hearing more about this.  If you'd rather not talk about it public though, thats fine. 




> There is never a point where you should stop trying to get better if your job puts you in harms way. All I was attempting to say was that you can learn to inflict debilitating trauma without spending more than one day in a non-sport oriented environment. It really is about the pedagogy used, if you aren't learning the principles but only a set of various techniques the recall under stress is far more difficult. Your points concerning continued training are absolutely sound. It gets to the point that the more you spend time breaking the specific target vectors in practice, the easier it is to commit through them when it hits the fan.


 
Thanks for your reply. 

Mike


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## chinto (May 29, 2008)

for most LEO types I would suggest a good Judo instructor, or perhaps aikido. but most likely a good judo or traditional Japanese jujitsu instructor.  
the LEO's job is to bring them in as unhurt as possible for trial. also an LEO must be prepared to face multiple attackers and I have not seen any MMA training that is very applicable to multiple attackers. ( at least not the UFC types)


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## Tez3 (May 29, 2008)

I have a suspicion that LEOs etc do MMA as a sport not for SD. The ones I know do.


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## chinto (May 29, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I have a suspicion that LEOs etc do MMA as a sport not for SD. The ones I know do.



yes that is provably true... and in some places that reputation of being  in cage matches as  a fighter might have a psychological edge with some of the low life's.  But, in most states to do any thing but the basic competitions as I understand it require a prize fighters license... and that is then a legal problem for the cop to use any force .. 
in my state if you are a licensed prize fighter and have an altercation, its automatically aggrevated assault to attempted murder charge, and the burden of proof is on you to prove it was self defense.... so in that end any LEO must check with an attorneys as it may become a real legal liability.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 14, 2008)

arnisador said:


> I posted this on FMAT:
> 
> *Beat Cops*
> 
> ...


  I train in MMA, though I don't compete, I train with lots of guys who do.  A fellow officer is considering competing and an officer at a neighboring department has been competing for 2 years.....several more are likely to follow suit.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 14, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> It seems that a lot of LEO's are finally "waking up to smell the coffee" vis-a-vis the serious threat posed by an attacker with an even moderate level of MMA training (though, to their credit, there are quite a few who have been in the game for a long time)
> There was a pretty good article by Steve Moses (Garland, Tx SWAT officer and firearms instructor) in the March issue of SWAT magazine that addressed this problem.
> 
> Here's a cool video on the topic from Burton Richardson


 I think it's an excellent trend, considering for a while there it seemed like most cops who left the academy had never been in a fist fight in their life.....and while that might seem like a good thing for a sunday school teacher, it's not as good as it seems for someone who's responsibility is maintaining peace and order by force if necessary!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 14, 2008)

chinto said:


> for most LEO types I would suggest a good Judo instructor, or perhaps aikido. but most likely a good judo or traditional Japanese jujitsu instructor.
> the LEO's job is to bring them in as unhurt as possible for trial. also an LEO must be prepared to face multiple attackers and I have not seen any MMA training that is very applicable to multiple attackers. ( at least not the UFC types)


  In addition to MMA (boxing, MT, Jui-Jitsu), i've trained for years in Judo and have been training in the FMA's for about 2 years.  

As for aikido, there are some excellent techniques from that system, but most aikido schools would be of little immediate benefit to law enforcement...but...I did study Aiki-jujitsu under John Karriman Sensei in Joplin, Mo. while I was going to the police academy at MSSU...Karriman was the DT instructor for the Academy as well, and invited students to his Dojo....strangely, I was the only one who availed himself of the opportunity....oh well, everyone else's loss....and while I only scratched the most basic of basics of the surfaces in that three months, what I learned there over 12 years ago i've used many times on the street.


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## chinto (Dec 16, 2010)

sgtmac_46 said:


> In addition to MMA (boxing, MT, Jui-Jitsu), i've trained for years in Judo and have been training in the FMA's for about 2 years.
> 
> As for aikido, there are some excellent techniques from that system, but most aikido schools would be of little immediate benefit to law enforcement...but...I did study Aiki-jujitsu under John Karriman Sensei in Joplin, Mo. while I was going to the police academy at MSSU...Karriman was the DT instructor for the Academy as well, and invited students to his Dojo....strangely, I was the only one who availed himself of the opportunity....oh well, everyone else's loss....and while I only scratched the most basic of basics of the surfaces in that three months, what I learned there over 12 years ago i've used many times on the street.




excellent choice, is that a diato (sp?) ryu akijujitsu?   I know that some Aikido instructors do modify their curriculum for LEO students to make it more applicable sooner to their needs.   I would also say most good Okinawan systems of karate would be a reasonably good choice for LEO personal.  
I know several LEO that are students of Okinawan systems and have been very happy with what they learn and its use.  ( of course any LEO has to watch out for the claim that they have used excessive force.  but, going home instead of the hospital or morgue is kinda a priority. )


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 16, 2010)

chinto said:


> excellent choice, is that a diato (sp?) ryu akijujitsu? I know that some Aikido instructors do modify their curriculum for LEO students to make it more applicable sooner to their needs. I would also say most good Okinawan systems of karate would be a reasonably good choice for LEO personal.
> I know several LEO that are students of Okinawan systems and have been very happy with what they learn and its use. ( of course any LEO has to watch out for the claim that they have used excessive force. but, going home instead of the hospital or morgue is kinda a priority. )


 
Yes, it was a Daito Ryu......but, unfortunately, my exposure to it lasted only during the time I was at my academy.......but it's been valuable enough that even after 15 years, I still use some of the techniques, despite having studied other systems over the years.

It's been my experience that the MORE skilled you are, the greater the ability you have to bring physical force to bear, the stronger, the faster, the greater overwhelming force one has at their disposal.......the LESS force they will need to use in an encounter.

The worst i've ever injured anyone in the course of the line of duty was a couple shoulder dislocations, a wrist dislocations, and some minor contusions.......all considered completely acceptable injuries resulting for active resistance.............and it's mostly due to the fact that i'm a big, strong guy, with some skill and training, who believes that the aggressively and timely implementation of low-end use of force quite often prevents much higher end uses of force.

The officer who is most dangerous is the one who's physical skills are so deficient that a tussle turns in to a lethal force encounter because he allows a subject to put him in a lethal force situation that another officer would have subdued more easily with low-end uses of force..........in other words, counter-intuitive to what many laymen and administrators might believe is the case.


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