# Does weapons training help empty hand skills?



## lonecoyote (Oct 27, 2004)

I've read and talked to people who say that weapons improve speed, form and accuracy, and that sometimes the movements with weapons help people explore how to move without them. Some of things I'm talking about include how some people say the Bo helps tie the hands together for better punching, the escrima sticks improve speed and the movements are also translatable to empty hand striking. I would like to hear if anyone has any other examples, or if anyone disagrees that weapons training is helpful in this way.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I've read and talked to people who say that weapons improve speed, form and accuracy, and that sometimes the movements with weapons help people explore how to move without them. Some of things I'm talking about include how some people say the Bo helps tie the hands together for better punching, the escrima sticks improve speed and the movements are also translatable to empty hand striking. I would like to hear if anyone has any other examples, or if anyone disagrees that weapons training is helpful in this way.



Not much time, to post, yet I think that weapons training helps the empty hand training. The relations to timing and position and distance, are all so much more imporatant with a weapon. (* Note: This is how people approach it at first *) Now, then you take the "Awareness" back to your empty hand training and the "Weapon" of the opponent now becomes the same, no matter if it is empty hand or object in hand. 

 :asian:


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## Flatlander (Oct 27, 2004)

There are a myriad of different emptyhand qualities that weapons training can enhance.  One other example I can add from my experience regards the blade.  Training continual cutting with the blade has helped me remain more "sticky" when I am emptyhanded, and the edge awareness that comes with it has improved my hand orientation for better "grabbiness".  In fact, I have found that a lot of the striking I now do is open or dead handed, to further facilitate my grabby ways.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 27, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> There are a myriad of different emptyhand qualities that weapons training can enhance.  One other example I can add from my experience regards the blade.  Training continual cutting with the blade has helped me remain more "sticky" when I am emptyhanded, and the edge awareness that comes with it has improved my hand orientation for better "grabbiness".  In fact, I have found that a lot of the striking I now do is open or dead handed, to further facilitate my grabby ways.



I see you have been paying attention to your lessons.   

This is true, as he now practices his empty hand tactics and techniques, or being sticky, he then can take it back to the knife and then use this with the weapon. 

 :asian:


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## Andrew Green (Oct 27, 2004)

It is a change, it changes what you need to be aware of, changes your priorities, forces you to adapt.

All of those things are very important in both hand and weapon work.  

The more adaptable you are the better you will be, it's a simple rule, but an important one.

The carryover is there, but the "important" stuff is not a "direct" carryover, but a indirect one.

Weapons also make footwork more important as you absorb less hits.  Being able to move in and out without getting hit is a valuable skill in hand fighting, but amplified in weapons work.


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## pesilat (Oct 27, 2004)

In my opinion and experience, weapons training helps immensely with empty hands. Movement is movement. Coordination is coordination. And it goes the other way, too.

When I was living in TX, there was a stick class and an empty hands class. People who trained only in one class or the other generally progressed slower than people who trained in both.

Mike


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## Ippon Ken (Oct 27, 2004)

Weapons training won't make you sorrier. You can be a great martial artist without any weapons training, but I'm sure weapons training is not a bad thing. It strengthens your shoulders, forearms, fingers and other parts of your body. It can only help, IMO.

(I am NOT bordering on lame, btw)


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## sifu Adams (Oct 28, 2004)

We do both in our system.  I have the swoards, chain whip, kwando, even what they call a ugly stick form.  I love the weapon training but it wasn't untill I met the late Ramy Preses that I learnd how it would help my empty had.  I had a double broadsword that I had done for years and loved the form.  When Prof. Ramy showed us the redonda X move it was a peace of cake.  I had it in my Sword form.   then Prof. Ramy ask me to do it with out the weapon.  My compent was "What?"  then he showed me!!! (dont pay to ask question sometimes!) he showed me that if my oppont threw a punch I could block the punch, pop the elbow and put my oppont in a arm bar lock behind the back.  (then he proceeded to make me craw on the floor, dance, stand on my toes, ect.)  After that class I started looking at my weapons a little different.  so my answer would be yes they can help if you look for the opertuity.


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## Drac (Oct 28, 2004)

My first Sensei forbade us from playing around with weapons in the Dojo..His attitude is once you have total control of your hand THEN you'll be able yo control anything placed in it...


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## Flatlander (Oct 28, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I see you have been paying attention to your lessons.


:asian:  

Thank you Guro Rich.


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## lonecoyote (Oct 28, 2004)

thanks everybody. Always insightful answers, Rich Parsons, Flatlander, Andrew Green, Pesilat. That was really interesting about GM Presas, sifu Adams. I have a story to relate. A few months ago I attended a workout with a great aikido/ kenjutsu guy. He related to me about how the aikido moves, from footwork to blows to throws was directly related to the sword art kenjutsu, and then demonstrated a couple of things. You could either throw someone empty handed or use the same motion to, if you had a sword (they practiced with bokken) lop someones head off. I'm not kidding, it was the same movement. It was fascinating. I still don't know anything about aikido or kenjutsu and can't remember exactly how it worked but I was very impressed.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 28, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> thanks everybody. Always insightful answers, Rich Parsons, Flatlander, Andrew Green, Pesilat. That was really interesting about GM Presas, sifu Adams. I have a story to relate. A few months ago I attended a workout with a great aikido/ kenjutsu guy. He related to me about how the aikido moves, from footwork to blows to throws was directly related to the sword art kenjutsu, and then demonstrated a couple of things. You could either throw someone empty handed or use the same motion to, if you had a sword (they practiced with bokken) lop someones head off. I'm not kidding, it was the same movement. It was fascinating. I still don't know anything about aikido or kenjutsu and can't remember exactly how it worked but I was very impressed.



This is a good beginning. Remember this while you train. Also remember that there may be some slight variations dependung upon the attributes of the weapon. Distance, edged versus impact, all have different possible variations, yet the body and foot work should be the same. 

You are welcome and good luck

 :asian:


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## GAB (Oct 28, 2004)

Drac said:
			
		

> My first Sensei forbade us from playing around with weapons in the Dojo..His attitude is once you have total control of your hand THEN you'll be able yo control anything placed in it...


Hi Drac, 
Do you feel this way also? I think that when you say weapons I think sticks.
Is this the main weapon we are talking about?

If it is not FMA and sticks then I would not say this is the way to go.

I think empty hands are helped with the stick drills etc.

If you don't have the sticks then the next best thing is speed bags and other bags that are out on the market. With sticks also.

Regards, Gary


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## 8253 (Oct 29, 2004)

It would definately help in the area of knowing what is possible to do with the weapon and how to defend against someone armed with a similar weapon if you do not have one.


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 29, 2004)

I'm no weapons expert, but I can attest to the fact that after someone has been whacking you on the head with a stick hands and feet start to look like they are moving in slow motion.

Jeff


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