# Why do only a few make midnight blue?



## Lynne (Jul 16, 2008)

I have heard it said, "Only 2% make black (midnight blue) belt in Tang Soo Do."  

I don't know if the 2% figure is accurate for all TSD students, my organization, or my school.  Maybe it is actually less.  Who knows?  Or do you know?

Obviously, not everyone makes it to cho dan.  Why is that?  Can you give me some insight?  Maybe it will help me with perseverance and the training I need to do on my own away from the school.  After all, I'm 50 and I have to work harder than someone who is 20.  Hey, maybe that's an advantage 

Thanks for your insights.


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## SamT (Jul 16, 2008)

Too many go in with a sense of self-entitlement, and when they see that they can't have everything their way (requesting early tests, requesting rank skips), they see other places that hand out black belts to anyone willing to pay for two years of martial arts and put minimal effort in.


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## Lynne (Jul 16, 2008)

SamT said:


> Too many go in with a sense of self-entitlement, and when they see that they can't have everything their way (requesting early tests, requesting rank skips), they see other places that hand out black belts to anyone willing to pay for two years of martial arts and put minimal effort in.


Our tests are scheduled.  I suppose some might have had the gall to ask if they could test early.  I would not want to test early.  Testing is nerve-wracking enough as it is.

I just hope I will have the physical and mental strength it takes to progress.  I guess I don't know what to expect.  I wonder how I will be able to run 5 - 7 miles and do 60+ squat thrusts with my rotten feet


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## terryl965 (Jul 16, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Our tests are scheduled. I suppose some might have had the gall to ask if they could test early. I would not want to test early. Testing is nerve-wracking enough as it is.
> 
> I just hope I will have the physical and mental strength it takes to progress. I guess I don't know what to expect. I wonder how I will be able to run 5 - 7 miles and do 60+ squat thrusts with my rotten feet


 
Give them a great pedicure the day before


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## cdunn (Jul 17, 2008)

Regardless of any 'entitlement mentality', achieving dan ranking requires extensive long term commitment. Since we are not warriors, we are not able to exclusively focus on training as a profession - and the outside world does not go away. Each of us have a certain situation we're in when we start. Sometimes, that changes, and it has an effect on our training. 

Then you add mismatched expectations, dojang politics, and the simple fact that not each teacher can only really reach a certain set of kinds of students, and you have a stew that's going to burn out the majority of the people that go into it. 

Basically, the answer is: Life happens.


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## Montecarlodrag (Jul 17, 2008)

Most students quit because they are lazy.
A smaller precentage quits because of other situations, like money, school, marriage, etc.
A even smaller percentage quits because they don't like it and go to another style.
Another part of students abandon training because some disability, injury or health problems. As a matter of fact, this people are the most committed because they need to work harder.

So, from each 100 students who beggin training, only a few will get the Cho Dan. The only way to increase percentage of new Black Belts is to soften the training, make things easier and faster, and become a Black Belt factory.


As for you being 50, there shouldn't be any problem. Here we take into consideration the age of students. We don't push them so hard because of obvious reasons. It's easier to get injured, takes longer to heal and the body isn't as strong and flexible as a 16 year old boy.
So, take it easy. Train softer but more often . Compensate your older body with better skills and knowledge.
You may not kick as high and hard as a 20 year old kid, but you can have better focus and skill to make your kicks more effective than pure brute force.


Regards.


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 20, 2008)

Most simply don't make it because it is too hard.

Even in belt mills, something has to be learned, and that takes time and effort.

In a tougher school, fewer will make it, most will quit within 12-18 months, when it begins to get tough.

Most people are not willing to push themselves or be pushed to success.  That's why the median income level is $20,000 and the average American is 40 pounds overweight.


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## stickarts (Jul 20, 2008)

Although I don't do TSD, generally I have seen less than 2% make it to black Belt in my arts.
Not everyone joins to be a black Belt, it ends up being more of a committment than many realize and is more diffucult than many realize. Also, many see Martial Arts in movies and have unrealistic expectations about martial arts when they get involoved.
Many things can also happen along the way that disrupt training. injuries, marriages, divorces, kids, etc...Once disrupted many never get back on track again.
Students stay with us until they get what they came for and i do my best to help them on their particular journey, whether that is just to get in better shape or to make Martial Arts their life.


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## theletch1 (Jul 20, 2008)

Mis-matched expectations.  CDunn hit the nail on the head, I think.  We've had many, many people come into our aikido school believing that they could be the next Seagal within a year.  Once they realize that there is a GREAT deal of work and pain involved in just getting to a moderate level of skill they usually re-evaluate what they want out of life.  We lose most of the students that we lose at the yellow/blue area... that's the second and third belt in our system.  White and yellow are pretty straight forward techniques.  Blue belt starts to make you really use your brain to understand the mechanics of the technique and have to visualize how the energy flows.  Once folks realize that it isn't going to be a cake walk, that it will actually be a challenge (they forget how rewarding overcoming that challenge is) they begin to look elsewhere for something easier.  The art and those that train with the folks that persevere are better for it.  I wouldn't let this bother you over much, Lynne.  The biggest thing I've found is just to not lose the joy of training and the rest will come easy.


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## cdunn (Jul 20, 2008)

To be fair, I think that there is much more to the mismatched expectations beyond becoming Chuck Norris or Steven Segal in the first six months. Certainly, it is one of many things that make a particular person believe that a particular school isn't for him. 

However, when we begin a class, there is something we want to get out of it. Some of us want to learn to defend ourselves. Some of us just want the physical fitness that comes from the workout. Some of us want an art. Some of us want to get into the ring and pound someone into a pulp. ... Some of us are masochistic enough to enjoy getting pounded into a pulp. 

 Some of us are just looking for something to do on Tuesday and Thursday night. Some of us want a congenial, egalitarian training atmosphere. Some want an in-dojo meritocracy. Some of us want hard discipline, complete with a higher rank in our grills and yelling. 

If what you really want is to know how to break someone's face, and all your teacher cares about is hyung/kata, and doesn't teach you applications, you're probably going to quit, no matter how many hours and how much hard work you're going to put in. If you want what some folks call 'the dance', and you're in the Kobra Kai, you're probably going to quit. If you were expecting Shotokan style up and down the floor drills, and spent most of your time doing pressure point drills and ki theory... you're probably going to quit. If you expected to become a totally sweet mammal with real ultimate power that can flip out and kill anyone, anywhere, any time... you're probably going to wind up quitting, no matter what you're doing.

No one likes to look at it this way: But in the long run, it comes down to training be a meaningful priority of the student. If anything happens that training is no longer a priority, eventually he's going to stop training. For an activity to remain a priority, the student has to believe that he's gaining meaningfully enough that what he is gaining is worth the price, primarily in hours and sweat, secondarily in dollars. Unfortunately, the martial arts are high priced in terms of effort. Lots of people won't be willing to pay it. This is not inherently bad - Lamborghini doesn't sell very many cars, and they're wildly impractical for the general population, but someone, somewhere, is going to be willing to put down the million euros for a Reventon, and they'll probably be very happy with it indeed.


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## JoeW (Jul 20, 2008)

I think people just loose interest.  My MA mind is everywhere and I want to do everything.  BJJ, Judo, Kyokushin you name it.  I think that most of the time TSD is to soft for my taste.  I was lucky and found a school close by that is cheap and seems to be a pretty hard school lots of hitting things which I like.

I would have to say my passion in Jiu Jitsu.  The downfall is I have absolutly no interest in MMA so finding a good BJJ only school is hard.  The only one I know of around me is a little to MMA/Thuggish for me.


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 20, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I have heard it said, "Only 2% make black (midnight blue) belt in Tang Soo Do."


 
It takes four(4) years to make it, that's why. No, I'm not complaining. You don't make it easy in TSD or SBD. It's not a pat on the back for trying nor some kind of 'gimmie'.

I think they have this philosophy.. "Winners never quit. Losers never win. And those who never win and never quit are idiots" (I got that from a demotovator poster.)

Anyway, you pay your dues. No short cuts.

Deaf


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## SamT (Jul 20, 2008)

Four years sounds way too soon to be making black belt. Under our criteria (ATKI & WTSDA), the lowest I've heard is 7 years. Average is 10-11 years. As Grand Master Shin put it at a black belt test, "Tang Soo Do is a journey, one that takes the entire life."


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## rick_tsdmdk (Jul 21, 2008)

The WTSDA has fine standards - but it takes far less than 7-12 years to make 1st dan

If the lowest you ever heard of is 7 years, you have not met too many black belts


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## SamT (Jul 21, 2008)

We're also a part of the American Tang Soo Do Karate Institute under Master Schmitt. ATKI has tougher standards. UNDER ATKI STANDARDS, the lowest I've heard is 7 years. I see plenty of fine black belts that only trained for 4-6 years for 1st Dan.


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## Lynne (Jul 23, 2008)

Thanks for the insights, everyone.  Much appreciated.

Although Sam T mentions 7 years, I think most schools take around 4 years and, still, that is no easy journey I'm sure. Mine is an American Tang Soo Do Association (Grandmaster Byrne) school/international UTC.  I suspect a lot of people drop out because they don't expect to have to work so hard as mentioned above.  It's not worth it to them and I imagine the mental work send some people out the door.  Forms, wrist grips, and hand-foot combinations can be overwhelming (especially when you are an ol' fart like me - it's like having a learning disability but worse, lol).  I imagine the forms only become more difficult.  I have known several to sign up for exercise only.  I see they are orange belts now.  That's really good.  That's six month of a lot of torture just for exercise, lol.

A young lady told me she didn't understand why we did forms, that she only wanted to spar.  I told her those who are good at forms are usually the best at sparring.  That went in one ear and out the other of course.  I wonder if she will persevere.

I have seen someone show up in white belt uniform and never come back.  Sometimes, they get sick during class and maybe that discourages them.  I would have imagined they would have taken a trial class though.  Gosh, if not, that should be a requirement - I don't know if it is.  Our instructors try to make the trial classes pretty hard for someone taking a trial class so they'll know what they're getting into.  (Trial classes are the regular classes and people trying out/white belts run and do squat thrusts just like the rest of the class but, again, the instructors make it more rough than usual.)

My first trial class (buddy week with my daughter) was hundreds of crunches, lots of wallkicks, squat thrusts, punching drills, kicking drills, jumping sidekicks (regardless that I didn't know how to do a sidekick, I ran like everyone else and jumped and tried to kick at the focus pad).  It is hard to pace yourself, because you want to keep up with everyone else.  I could barely walk for four days after that but I loved the challenge. I didn't get sick during class so I was encouraged.  Lucky me. (It kind of scares me that someone my age would take these classes without being conditioned.)

We have hell week several times a year as well as extra hard conditioning classes.  There are times I still can barely walk for three-four days after a class (i.e., lots of plyometric jumping, 300 leg raises, 400 pushups, that sort of thing - this is no exaggeration.  I think people think I'm exaggerating.  I'm not saying I can do 400 pushups.  And they aren't all at once of course.  200 crunches, 10 squat thrusts, 40 pushups - sets like that.  Although we have alternated crunches, pushups, crunches for over a half hour.)  The idea is Master R wants us to be well-conditioned.  If we aren't working on conditioning at home, it's going to become harder to do the dojang work.  Our training will suffer.

I am sure your dojang is just like this except you may have introductory classes for newbies and perhaps the training is lighter for them?

Right now, I'm working on my endurance.  I've started to do intervals (sprinting) and am jumping rope.  I will have to run five miles at red belt level.  Endurance, in our school, is a big deal at red belt level.  And the Dans have to run 7 miles.  This is a good thing for me.  It gives me the motivation to work at conditioning formartial arts while not in class; it helps to make MA more of a lifestyle.  Honestly, I can't imagine doing this work if I didn't love Tang Soo Do.  

I noticed my feet and joints haven't bothered me as much as they did three years ago when I wasn't taking MA.  MA has really strengthened my supporting muscles and ligaments.  Still, I'm being careful.  Because I can't kick as high as a 16 year-old male (as MonteCarlo said), no one is going to hold that against me.  But I am expected to do my best of course.


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## tsdclaflin (Jul 23, 2008)

Life happens. Few people today live in the same house or keep the same job for 5 to 10 years.

If you relocate, it may be hard to stay with the same style. Changes in the school may also discourage students.

Two of my three boys never got there black belt for a combination of reasons: the best instructor the school ever had moved away...very discouraging...the owner of the school kept changing the promotion requirements...finally, I left the school and went to another where my boys had to start over...ugh...they wanted to quit and I let them.


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