# The Wheel Kick.



## KanoLives (Aug 29, 2003)

I thought it would be cool to hear people's opinion on the wheel kick. Personally I love it. I get some really good power into it and it's a fun kick to practice. However as far as pratical applications I don't think it would be a kick of choice. Unless you were squareing up with a severly drunk person that wouldn't have time to react to it. 

So let's hear your opinion's on the wheel kick. 

:asian: 



Mod Note: If you guys think this belongs in the Kenpo/Kempo Tech section please feel free to move it. :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Aug 29, 2003)

before deciding whether to move it.  

Define "Wheel" as v. "Roundhouse".  

Is it more the Muay Thai kick where the knee remains bent and the striking surface is anywhere from shin to top of foot, with the power deriving from the hip and follow though?

Or is it the TKD "Wheel" version coming from the back leg around on a horizontal plane, but with an extension of the leg as it strikes (not the fully commited Muay Thai version)?

Or the Kenpo "Roundhouse" coming through the middle then turning over, so it is indistinguishable from a front or knife-edge, when thrown with the back leg?

-Michael


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## FiveSwords (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> Or the Kenpo "Roundhouse" coming through the middle then turning over, so it is indistinguishable from a front or knife-edge, when thrown with the back leg?



That's what I think of as a wheel kick.  I think it's great for sparring combos, but I would probably stick to something with a little more power in the street.  I like crescent kicks, too, but they are more predictable and slower.   Front kicks, side kicks and rear kicks are my weapons of choice.


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## KanoLives (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *before deciding whether to move it.
> 
> Define "Wheel" as v. "Roundhouse".
> ...



My definition of the wheel kick is from a fighting stance with my right leg back(obviously it can come from the south paw stance as well, everything is just opposite.). You twist your torso to the right as your left hand is kinda reaching for the floor giving you a kinda downward circleing motion. Then letting the rear leg act like a whip being nice and loose following your torso's spin. The leg is in full extension, contact with the target is made with the back of the heel. You follow through with the kick, ya know like kicking through the target not stopping once contact is made. This is how I was taught the kick. I'm not to sure which category it would fall into from the above mentioned. And I also hope the description is clear and understandable.   If not please feel free to ask questions as I will try my best to answer it. Also I am not sure what you guys call this kick in A.K.. We call it a Wheel Kick in Chinese Kempo. Personally I think it reminds me of a Dragon whipping its tail.   But like I said I question its practicality.


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 29, 2003)

Is that similar to the capoeira kick in which they turn 360º before hitting the oponent?


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## KanoLives (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Is that similar to the capoeira kick in which they turn 360º before hitting the oponent? *



No the kick is thrown during the rotation and you never leave the ground except for the kicking leg. :asian:


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## KanoLives (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Is that similar to the capoeira kick in which they turn 360º before hitting the oponent? *




That is a cool looking kick though.


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## ob2c (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ChineseKempoAL _
> *...from a fighting stance with my right leg back...twist your torso to the right as your left hand is kinda reaching for the floor giving you a kinda downward circleing motion. Then letting the rear leg act like a whip being nice and loose following your torso's spin. The leg is in full extension, contact with the target is made with the back of the heel...*



Sounds like a variation of a spining back kick. Spining back kicks are ok, but I'm not too sure about this version. I guess, if I'm visualizing this right, it could be used similar to a sweep if you for some reason duck a high kick, only you kick the supporting leg or groin??? But if you are letting the trailing leg whip, it seems it would work better as a sweep. 



> *However as far as pratical applications I don't think it would be a kick of choice.*



What applications do they teach for this kick?


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ChineseKempoAL _
> *My definition of the wheel kick is from a fighting stance with my right leg back(obviously it can come from the south paw stance as well, everything is just opposite.). You twist your torso to the right as your left hand is kinda reaching for the floor giving you a kinda downward circleing motion. Then letting the rear leg act like a whip being nice and loose following your torso's spin. The leg is in full extension, contact with the target is made with the back of the heel. You follow through with the kick, ya know like kicking through the target not stopping once contact is made. This is how I was taught the kick. I'm not to sure which category it would fall into from the above mentioned. And I also hope the description is clear and understandable.   If not please feel free to ask questions as I will try my best to answer it. Also I am not sure what you guys call this kick in A.K.. We call it a Wheel Kick in Chinese Kempo. Personally I think it reminds me of a Dragon whipping its tail.   But like I said I question its practicality. *



The kick you descrobe here sounds more like what we called a spinning heel kick. I think most people, when they do a wheel kick the weapons are either the ball of the foot, the top of the foot at the ankle (instep), or the shin. If you are kicking off the back foot from a left neutral bow your body would rotate counter-clockwise exacute the kick and land in a right neutral bow. We called this wheel kick and then we had a front leg wheel kick as well. I just looked back and realized that you are a chinese Kenpo practioner so you might have different names for some of the kicks. I think the kick that we call a wheel kick has a lot more validaty in its application than the kick we called a spinning heel kick. You will find wheel kicks applied to several techniques in the Kenpo system but the spinning heel is in very few if any at all. I used the spinning heel in sparring quite a bit just for fun but I never really cared for the kick much. Actually I used a spinning heel hook more than a spinning heel. It is a fun kick but I don't see it being very practicle in application during a street fight.  

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF


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## KanoLives (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *The kick you descrobe here sounds more like what we called a spinning heel kick. I think most people, when they do a wheel kick the weapons are either the ball of the foot, the top of the foot at the ankle (instep), or the shin. If you are kicking off the back foot from a left neutral bow your body would rotate counter-clockwise exacute the kick and land in a right neutral bow. We called this wheel kick and then we had a front leg wheel kick as well. I just looked back and realized that you are a chinese Kenpo practioner so you might have different names for some of the kicks. I think the kick that we call a wheel kick has a lot more validaty in its application than the kick we called a spinning heel kick. You will find wheel kicks applied to several techniques in the Kenpo system but the spinning heel is in very few if any at all. I used the spinning heel in sparring quite a bit just for fun but I never really cared for the kick much. Actually I used a spinning heel hook more than a spinning heel. It is a fun kick but I don't see it being very practicle in application during a street fight.
> 
> Salute,
> Mike Miller UKF *




Ahhhhhh, so you guys call it the spinning heel kick. From what you describe it sounds the same as what we call a spinning wheel kick. And yes OB2C if you were to throw it very low with your body croutched then it has the same principles as a sweep. I actually never thought about it in that context before but that would definitely be a good counter to a high kick. 

Some real good input. I'm diggin' it. So to all you Kenpo folk your thoughts on the spinning heel kick now that we have translated it from Chinese Kempo terminology to Kenpo's terminology.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 29, 2003)

This is similar to the Spin Heel, but with contraction of the hamstrings as you strike and gluts to pull the hip and accelerate the kick, so that it is not just the spinning momentum that you strike with.


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## FiveSwords (Aug 29, 2003)

> Some real good input. I'm diggin' it. So to all you Kenpo folk your thoughts on the spinning heel kick now that we have translated it from Chinese Kempo terminology to Kenpo's terminology.



In that case... 

Any kinda heel kick is all right with me.   

I like that one because it is powerful and tricky to defend against.  It is also a lot harder to control in a sparring situation, so I don't really use it unless I'm trying to knock the guy's head off.  Great kick though.


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FiveSwords _
> *In that case...
> 
> Any kinda heel kick is all right with me.
> ...



I prefer to throw a heel hook more like a side heel thrust. It seems to be faster and i can even generate quite a bit of power with it. It also makes it easier to control because you rare going from a straight line ( the side heel thrust) to a curved line (the Hook of the heel).  so the lick is not being done with pure centrifical force. My favorite time to throw this kick is when my apponent throws a right punch and I am in  left neautral bow. I parry the punch with my left hand and just continue the motion around and spin that side heel thrust up and hook to the back of the head or to the kidney. The kidney is less glamorous and won't draw a point as often as the head strike will. you might be surprised at how much faster the kick gets to its target and how much control you will have of it. I am not really flexible ut I can still get the kick up controled. 

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF


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## FiveSwords (Aug 29, 2003)

> I parry the punch with my left hand and just continue the motion around and spin that side heel thrust up and hook to the back of the head or to the kidney.



Nice.   

I'll have to give that one a try.  I really like lead-leg hook kicks in a right stance against an opponent in a right, but I haven't done much with the spinning side with the hook.  I'll definitely be putting that in my play book tonight.   :asian:


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## satans.barber (Aug 29, 2003)

Didn't know there was to many names and types!

What we class as  a wheel kick comes off the back leg. From a left stance, I'd start to pivot clockwise, lift my knee, spin all the way round and kick across the face with the flat of my foot. That's as opposed to a spinning hook, where the movement is the same but the kick it with the heel, rather than the flat of the foot.

When I do it, I like to put a half step on it to get some more momentum, so being left legged, I usually start in a left stance, step rear foot around to 12 o' clock, then carry on teh motion to that I spin anti-clockwise and whip my foot out for the kick. I send it a full 360 degrees so that I land in a right stance.

As for application, I like to get students to hit a small focus mitt with it, because it's good for judging distance. It's also fun for sparring, but you have to be careful because if it connects you're gonna knock someone out with it (especially with the half step on).

I don't think it has any place in self defence though, especially wearing heavy footwear and on rough tarmac or gravel ('sticky' surfaces). It's a dojo toy for practicing precision, like most fancy kick, in my opinion.

:asian: 

Ian.


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2003)

I was taught the wheel kick as being similar to the spinning hook.  Only difference is that rather than hooking your leg, it is more straight.  I'm not a big fan of any spinning kicks.  Yeah, I've done them, but I've found that they work best on someone that is rushing in on you.  The spinning back kick is great for that!  I dont think I'd use it at all in the street, unless the person was already pretty out of it.  Doing it in sparring is good, if you happen to catch your opp. off guard.   If you aren't quick, you will telegraph the kick, and the other person will have a chance to react before you land the kick.

Mike


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FiveSwords _
> *Nice.
> 
> I'll have to give that one a try.  I really like lead-leg hook kicks in a right stance against an opponent in a right, but I haven't done much with the spinning side with the hook.  I'll definitely be putting that in my play book tonight.   :asian: *



I think you will find that it works very well. One thing you might want to try if you do this off parry or block is kinda slap there hand which will help through them off balance a little bit giving you that extra split second to get the kick around. Again it works best for a right punch while they are in a right stance so that you rotate to the outside of their strike. It is not very good Kenpo but it is fun sparring.

Salute and enjoy, I hope it works for you!

Mike Miller UKF


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## Michael Billings (Aug 29, 2003)

<<Mod. Note.>>
Moving Thread to Kenpo /Kenpo Technical Forum

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-

It looks like this thread is worth discussion and belongs in the Technical Forum since it did not die out on it's own.


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## Bill Lear (Aug 30, 2003)

With all of this moving and shuffling around... I'm starting to feel like I'm doing the Hollywood Shuffle.  

Just giving you a hard time Mr. Billings!

I know... I know... Stay on topic.


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## Kenpomachine (Aug 30, 2003)

Ok, now that I know what kick we're talking about, I've done it in practicing, but a friend of mine did it once or twice while sparring as a sweep.

I have also seen the TKD kick doing it high to knock someone out. 

But you have to be real quick to connect one of those, or do it in a fast combo so it's not so easily seen


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## twinkletoes (Aug 30, 2003)

Wow, total terminology meltdown.

Our wheel kick is a lead leg roundhouse, without pivot.  Snappy, quick, and delivered with the instep.

What is described here sounds like a variation on spinning back or spinning hook (depending on who's describing).

~TT


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## Doc (Aug 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *before deciding whether to move it.
> 
> Define "Wheel" as v. "Roundhouse".
> ...



Now see when I say "define" something or I define what I mean, some people get upset. How are we going to communicate without definitions. We can't just assume everybody knows and does the same thing, bcause they don't.


Beauty may be skin deep but, dumb is forever.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> * How are we going to communicate without definitions. We can't just assume everybody knows and does the same thing, bcause they don't.*



This I agree with:asian: . What I would have called the "wheel kick" isn't the same as what was discovered. Spinning hook kicks are good and should only be used under certain circumstances. However everyone unfortunately has slightly different terminology depending upon lineage/art and so forth. 

Lately I've thought about starting up the technique of the week theme but after the last couple and how heated they got I was discouraged and didn't. The reason is because my tech. list on my computer words have been changed so I can follow exactly where I need to be. After years of refining my own stuff I realised that I should have copy/pasted a 2nd list and only changed one. . This again becomes a difference of opinion/methodology/terminology/association/lineage/instructor/student. :asian:


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## molson (Sep 5, 2003)

I had a version of the wheel kick in my Tang soo do days. It was basically a straight leg version of the spinning back kick, leading with the heal. Instead of chambering the leg, it comes from the floor position.  Alot of power but telegraphic. Like the spinning back and hook it, has more effectiveness as a follow up technique.


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