# Sword Styles



## swordmaster52 (Jun 25, 2008)

Hi.I'm really interested about taking sword lessons,but, I don't know what style I should train in.I was thinking about kendo,but im not sure.If anyone knows a good sword style for beginners,it would help alot if you told me.

:jediduel:   (i hope to master whatever style i take,and end up like 
                       these guys)     


                                                   :BSmeter:


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## Flying Crane (Jun 25, 2008)

well, since a quality teacher of ANY sword style is probably a rare commodity these days, you may really have little choice.   Find out if someone is in your area, with whom you can study.  That is in all liklihood, your only choice.

Otherwise, sword (jian) and broadsword (dao) is often practiced as part of many kung fu systems.  Find out if any good kung fu teachers are in your area.  You will probably need to become a full student and study the complete system that they teach, and sword work will be part of that training.  Of course this means it will not be the main focus, but only one segment of a larger system.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 25, 2008)

It obviously depends on where in the world you are.  If you're in Britain, I could probably help you and advise you based upon what's available in your county.

If you're elsewhere, well, Europe I could help a little, particularly Holland or Belgium.  America, I'm embarassed to say, no idea, other than some famous instructors.


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## jks9199 (Jun 25, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> It obviously depends on where in the world you are.  If you're in Britain, I could probably help you and advise you based upon what's available in your county.
> 
> If you're elsewhere, well, Europe I could help a little, particularly Holland or Belgium.  America, I'm embarssed to say, no idea, other than some famous instructors.


Also -- what sort of sword style are looking for?

Eastern or Western?  Competitive, combative, or for personal enjoyment/aesthetics?

Each answer is likely to lead to more questions, but that's where you need to start.


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## bowser666 (Jun 26, 2008)

SO let us know where you live and we might be able to help you.  Keep in mind though that in Kung Fu it may be some time before you train with a sword.  In my style the first weapon we start training with is Shaolin Staff.  Jian and Dao come into play after that.  Time to get to it probably anywhere from 6 months to a year, depending on your progression.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 26, 2008)

Good point to highlight about the time required in an empty hand style before you move on to weapons training.

I can only speak from my experience but you had to reach black sash before being eligible to train in nunchaku or bo.


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## swordmaster52 (Jun 26, 2008)

Im looking for combatative,and im really interested in the katana,do u know if u ever actually use a real sword in kendo? I just would like a few suggestions on a good katana style for a begginer sworman.


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## bowser666 (Jun 26, 2008)

I think Iaido is one , as well as Kendo.  For safety purposes they do not start you off with real weapons  LOL.  You will probably use a Shinai or a Bokken. Once ample time in trainign has begin , then you will graduate to a real weapon.   I would also recommend checking out the sword arts section in this forum.


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## Langenschwert (Jun 26, 2008)

It's very hard (but not impossible) to find legitimate kenjutsu outside of Japan.  If someone says "This is a style I came up with", then run far, run fast, since it's most likely complete BS.  There are an amazing number of people who teach what they think are "sword arts" with little to no background in something legit.  If it's Kenjutsu, find out who they studied under, etc etc.  Once you're satisfied with their credentials, proceed.

For western swordsmanship (my specialty), and you're in the U.S., you might be in more luck.  Check out ARMA.  ARMA produces some very proficient swordsmen.  Their senior scholars can hold their own with _anybody_, and they have some excellent instructors who will teach you to really _fight_.  There are other good groups like AEMMA in Toronto and in Europe, you've got a lot more choices... too many good groups there to mention.  And of course, if you're in Calgary or Edmonton, you can always drop by the AES (see my sig). 

Another alternative is Classical Fencing (not Olympic/sport fencing), which is again hard to find.  Check out the Northwest Academy of Arms for an example.  As a bonus, you can also study longsword and sword & buckler there, but that's unusual in a Classical Fencing Salle.  A good foundation in Classical Fencing will help you with whatever other sword art you might pursue later.

Good luck in your search!

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Sukerkin (Jun 26, 2008)

It's a source of great bitterness that I didn't emigrate to Calgary in the early 2000's like I planned.  What can I say, met a girl, she didn't want to leave her folks in Blighty .  If I had, *Langen* we could've been sparring partners .  Then again, I might not have learned iai if I had - swings and roundabouts.

I just wanted to clarify a term that my friend used above - _kenjutsu_.  It has a bit of a cloudy interpretation around the globe and tends to be misused a lot.  

Really it just means 'the art of fighting with a sword' and encompasses arts such as mine, _muso jikiden eishin ryu iaido_ as well as more 'partner kata', multi-weapon orientated arts such as _Katori shinto ryu_.  It is starting to take on the connotation in some useage of only those sword arts that involve partner drills.  

This is, however, misleading.  

Iaido is kata based because it is, frankly, too dangerous to 'spar' with live blade katana but there are kata performed with a partner using bokken.  Plus, all kata performed with either iaito or shinken are done with an internalised sense of the combat being played out - if you are not imagining what's going on then you're not training .

I don't want any kendoka's here to take offence at what I say next but Kendo has strayed deep into sports territory and altho' there are certain mental elements that are common to all sword discipines the techniques are quite different.  Some schools do teach a very limited form of iaido in addition to sparring with the _shinai_ but that is as close to swordwork as it gets.  Many kendoka do also study iaido too, tho', which gives them a much more rounded appreciation of the arts.

In the end, if you want to learn how the katana was wielded in times gone by, then you really should be looking at an Iaido school or one for Katori.  The latter went through a period of intense political upheaval not so many years ago but that appears to be colling now and the 'break away' groups (or _ha_) are not as ostracised as they once were.


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## thardey (Jun 26, 2008)

One thing you'll find about sword work, and styles, is that there are only so many ways you can efficiently maneuver a sharpened piece of metal, particularly when that maneuvering is intended to cause harm to an opponent.

That is to say, whatever style you end up studying will probably mostly affect the _way_ you are taught, as opposed to _what_ you are taught. Styles and swords are married to each other. If you want to learn a medium-length, two-handed sword, the basic cuts and parries are going to be the same pretty much anywhere you go. Even the footwork will be very similar.

And this is coming form a western student! In addition to the description of Sukerkin above, western styles often use choreographed fights between two students to teach. Sort of a two-man kata. Not sparring, but pre-determined. That's another example of "how" you are taught differently in different styles.

That's why it ultimately boils down to an individual instructor. Do you prefer to be taught step-by-step, mastering each detail before you move on? Or would you rather start with the "Big picture" and refine it? Do you enjoy pursuing the aesthetic beauty of the motion of the sword and footwork, or would you rather study the "vulgar" (i.e. "common" or "practical") use of the sword? 

Just about any decent teacher will help you to enjoy learning the sword, if the teacher, and the sword, is for your personality. There isn't really a "best" style of sword fighting, there's really just different paths to take to get there. That's why you don't often see a "Samurai vs. Knight" type thread, because both are highly developed, and both have come to the same basic conclusions. The swords are very similar in length and weight, and they're made of the same stuff, so they are used in pretty much the same way.

If you want to learn to use a particular type of sword (you mentioned katana), then any style who uses a katana will teach you how to use it appropriately.

In other words, if you find a legitimate teacher, then there is no bad style.

Just be patient! It's a slow learning curve!


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## Langenschwert (Jun 27, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> It's a source of great bitterness that I didn't emigrate to Calgary in the early 2000's like I planned. What can I say, met a girl, she didn't want to leave her folks in Blighty . If I had, *Langen* we could've been sparring partners . Then again, I might not have learned iai if I had - swings and roundabouts.


 
Wouldn't that have been sweet.  Though Calgary's a pain in the posterior, let me tell you. 



> I just wanted to clarify a term that my friend used above - _kenjutsu_. It has a bit of a cloudy interpretation around the globe and tends to be misused a lot.


 
Yeah, I should have specified Koryu stuff.  To the OP, check out Koryu.com for information on classical Japanese fighting arts.  Meik and Diane Skoss seem to know their stuff. 



> I don't want any kendoka's here to take offence at what I say next but Kendo has strayed deep into sports territory and altho' there are certain mental elements that are common to all sword discipines the techniques are quite different. Some schools do teach a very limited form of iaido in addition to sparring with the _shinai_ but that is as close to swordwork as it gets. Many kendoka do also study iaido too, tho', which gives them a much more rounded appreciation of the arts.


 
Shinai are certainly the cause of many bad habits with regards to swordsmanship.  Swords just don't do what shinai do.  As far as sword arts go, Kendo's main disadvantage is that it doesn't try to make good swordsmen, it's aim is to make good kendoka, and that's a big difference.  They simply aren't used to dealing with someone who's trained to use the sword as a _weapon_, and uses all the in-close grapples that one would use in a real fight.  That being said, Kendo is awesome fun, and a great tool for personal development.



> In the end, if you want to learn how the katana was wielded in times gone by, then you really should be looking at an Iaido school or one for Katori.


 
Wouldn't that be sweet.  If there were KSR in Calgary, I just might join. 

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Langenschwert (Jun 27, 2008)

thardey said:


> One thing you'll find about sword work, and styles, is that there are only so many ways you can efficiently maneuver a sharpened piece of metal, particularly when that maneuvering is intended to cause harm to an opponent.


 
Yup.



> That is to say, whatever style you end up studying will probably mostly affect the _way_ you are taught, as opposed to _what_ you are taught. Styles and swords are married to each other. If you want to learn a medium-length, two-handed sword, the basic cuts and parries are going to be the same pretty much anywhere you go. Even the footwork will be very similar.


 
True enough.  There are peculiarities to each style, but some things are eerily similar.  For the OP, take a look at these links:  First are the kamae (stances) used in Kendo:

http://www.halifaxkendo.org/Archives/Additional Texts/Alt.Kamae/kamae.html 

Then we have some that are used in different European longsword styles:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/StancesIntro.htm

As you can see, they are very analogous, simply by virtue of the weapons being similar in function.  The styles aren't identical, but practicioners of koryu kenjutsu and those of say, German longsword will recognize at least about 80% of what the other style does.



> In other words, if you find a legitimate teacher, then there is no bad style.
> 
> Just be patient! It's a slow learning curve!


 
Very true on both counts.  If I didn't have the opportunity to do German longsword, but there was some koryu bujutsu around, I'd be all over it.  Sword arts are counterintuitive.  Be patient, and realize you can't learn it all at once.  The art of the sword is a lifelong pursuit.  A year of training will barely get you the basics.  However, I've found the rewards to be immense.  A good sword never lies to you.  The going may be tough, but there is ALWAYS a way through.  Best of luck to you in your search.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 27, 2008)

There's little that I can add to what has already been posted.  So much depends upon what you wish to get out of it.

If you're looking for tradition, art, and to learn the techniques of using the sword as a weapon specifically, then I'd recomend a good Iaito school; I'm going that direction because you mentioned kendo.  If your intersts lie in European or any one of many non-Japanese Asian styles, then you'd need to look at something else.  Depending upon where you are, if fencing is your interest, there are classical and historical fencing salles.

If you'd rather a style that emphasises athleticism, sparring, and tourney, then Kendo or its Korean equivalent, Kumdo, should be just what the doctor ordered.  Likewise, if your interest lies in a different style of weapon, you'd need to seek out something else.  Certainly, sport fencing caters to this from a western perspective, though I stress that sport fencing is as removed from actual 'swordsmanship' as kendo is from kenjutsu; not a good or bad thing, and meaning no disrespect to any sport fencer on the board.  It simply depends upon what you're after.

Daniel


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## kaizasosei (Jun 27, 2008)

Do what the ancients did.  Learn directly from the Gods.

also, it may help to check out the yellow pages for school near you just for some added support.

j


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 27, 2008)

I will be in the minority, but I have always been partial to fencing.  There will be a bigger chance of there being a fencing school in major cities over iado or kendo.  Also, with the Olympics coming up, it is a good time for us fencing fans.

AoG


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## swordmaster52 (Jul 15, 2008)

I've decided to take up iaido.Do any of you know a great school close to houston,cypress,texas?


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## zDom (Jul 16, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> Do what the ancients did.  Learn directly from the Gods.



You mean the Valar?


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## Stone (Jul 16, 2008)

Fanatstic sword work and some of the best instructors you can find.

http://www.atienzakali.com/

Stone


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## hogstooth (Aug 13, 2008)

swordmaster52 said:


> Hi.I'm really interested about taking sword lessons,but, I don't know what style I should train in.I was thinking about kendo,but im not sure.If anyone knows a good sword style for beginners,it would help alot if you told me.
> 
> It depends on were you live. Look in the phone book or online. Beware of the all in one dojo. What I mean by that is an instructor that is trained and ranked in one art (Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do) and has a little knowledge in a sword art and teaches it as if he were a master of the art. I have had this happen to me. You have to be able to seperate bull from fact. Decide what kind of swordsmanship you are interested in and buy a book. Do some research so you will be able to know if what you are being taught is the real thing.
> Also keep in mind that you need to be mindfull of how much you will have to spend to take up a particular art. Look into what equipment you will have to have and how much it costs. Most instructors require you to purchase you own equipment.
> ...


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