# The Kenponet



## Guiseppe Betri (Jul 5, 2003)

What in the world is happening with the Kenponet?  I use to post there regularly, but I haven't done so in months.  I guess I don't want to be a part of what is now taking place.  I still read whats posted but I just don't want my name on that forum anymore.  Any ideas to get that board returned to the positive?


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## Kirk (Jul 5, 2003)

Josh needs to give mod capabilities to someone else on the 
board.  The 2 of them aren't able to be on board, and sometimes
negative posts run their course before being deleted.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2003)

Whats happening is that some of us are simply trying to show people that there are holes in some of the things in Kenpo.  By taking off, rather than reading the posts, is doing nothing more than keeping the blinders on.  You want to take off a negative post?  The post isn't negative, it's simply stating a fact..a fact that some people dont want to listne to because they already think that they know everything.  I'm not saying that I do, but considering I've trained for 17 yrs, reached 3rd degree black, and have had the chance to train in other arts, I have noticed the gaps and improvements that need to be made.

MS


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 5, 2003)

I think, actually, that the "negative," means the repeated sarcastic attacks on  folks like Mr. Tatum, the repeated personal insults (calling people, "homos," now seems to be in vogue), the mean-spirited anonymous posting, etc. 

There is nothing to be done about it, other than to note that it is a real pity that so many people studying martial arts have gotten by without learning  respect, courtesy, or even basic good manners.

Fortunately, these sorts of folks have very short attention spans.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I think, actually, that the "negative," means the repeated sarcastic attacks on  folks like Mr. Tatum, the repeated personal insults (calling people, "homos," now seems to be in vogue), the mean-spirited anonymous posting, etc.
> 
> There is nothing to be done about it, other than to note that it is a real pity that so many people studying martial arts have gotten by without learning  respect, courtesy, or even basic good manners.
> ...



Well, here it is once again....Putting words into other peoples mouths!!  I, and I'm only speaking for myself, have never called anyone any bad names.  The only thing I'm guilty of is saying that some people are VERY closed minded and not willing to look outside of their little world.  I have met Mr. Tatum when he was in CT. conducting a seminar, and was very impressed by his skill.  I'm not saying he is a bad MA, so stop saying it!  I'm saying that Kenpo is not the perfect art.  It does not address the various combat aspects as in depth as other styles, and am only trying to show people the gaps, only as to hope that maybe they will too.  

MS


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 5, 2003)

Oh, for cryin' out loud.

Mike, I DID NOT MEAN YOU. I WAS NOT REFERRING TO POSTS ABOUT ACTUAL ISSUES IN KENPO. I was trying to explain that Kirk was simply referring to the recent flood of anonymous personal insults. 

That is all I meant.

If I inadvertently somehow gave offense, my apologies, but I'm having a hard time seeing how what I wrote could have referred to your perfectly-legitimate ideas about kenpo.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 5, 2003)

MJS,
Chill out. Robert was only trying to point out that your opinions about Kenpo are not the problem; its the personal attacks and threats on the Kenpo net that are the problem. Yes the Mod may erease somthing based on his bias that cause the name calling and threats in the first place, but thats life... deal with it. This isnt junior high. I'm not saying you were the one that did it but Robert was only clarifying, not misinterpreting.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Oh, for cryin' out loud.
> 
> Mike, I DID NOT MEAN YOU. I WAS NOT REFERRING TO POSTS ABOUT ACTUAL ISSUES IN KENPO. I was trying to explain that Kirk was simply referring to the recent flood of anonymous personal insults.
> ...



Well, this was not the first time I've had an attack directed to me, so I assumed it was just another one. Sorry if I offended you!  

My ideas are not perfect and I NEVER SAID THEY WERE.  There is always a better way of doing something.  The training ideas that I do to improve my Kenpo are based solely on my own experiences, therefore I cant speak for everybody.  I'm just offering a suggestion on ways to make an improvement to an art, that according to some people, think its perfect!

MS


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## Guiseppe Betri (Jul 5, 2003)

I have noticed the several posts that are so negative, or derogatory in nature.  But why is there so much of it?  One thing is said and several people jump up to respond and defend what the person that was attacked.  Why?  I also read about someone calling someone a "homo."  But I guess I was a little concerned because this other person asked what he/she was wearing.  That was by "Dougie" I think, and that was most certainly out of line.  I think there are several people on that specific forum that need to grow up and knock it off.  Robert, I don't know you, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders, but you have fueled the fire a bit yourself.  No?


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 5, 2003)

No, actually.

Do I argue? yes.
Do I present my view and stick to it? yes.
Do I try and remain polite? yes.
Do I ever screw up? yes.
Do I sometimes hang on to a point after it's clearly hopeless? yes.
Do I call people names and post anonymously? no.
Do I understand--and accept, and respect--that other folks think differently, believe differently, experience differently? sure.

Others can answer those questions for themelves, I guess.


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## Guiseppe Betri (Jul 5, 2003)

Easy howlie.  Thats just the way I see it at times I guess.  I'm just having a problem with the endless bickering that occurs constantly.  By the way Robert what do you do?  I'm a management consultant for TC Industries a smaller business located just outside of Minneapolis, MN.


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## pineapple head (Jul 5, 2003)

I cannot even access the  forum and i have never had a negative post on there.
Poor old me!!!! :asian:


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## Dun Ringill (Jul 5, 2003)

I think the first thing that one has to look at in determining the validity of the kenponet or any message board is that these forums are not subsitutes for martial arts training, half the time they barely pass for supplements.  I've been watching the kenponet and for the past year it has pretty much gone downhill.  If you look at the first page of posts you will see a pretty good list of names posting about serious kenpo subjects.  Ron Chapel, Sigung Labounty, Bob White, Larry Tatum, Dennis Conaster, etc. and then as time marches on new posters come in and immediately clique up and either support one another posts or get together and launch disrespectful assaults on seniors and people who are trying to take the board seriously.  An example of one of these cliques is Wes Idol, clyde t. o'briant, and Billy lear, i've studied and watched them act rude and disrespectful towards people who have 20 years on them in the art.  One of those three has been banned from martial talk.   This is just one example.  Lately there have been some attacks on Larry Tatum and now Mike Pick.  Who cares?  The more defensive people get over whether or not either of these gentlemen is gay the more I tend to believe that there might be a kernel of truth about it.  I think the funny thing is that Wes Idol is screaming for a deletion of the posts when he principally did the same thing not to long ago to Ron Chapel by questioning whether or not he was a real 10th degree.  The really funny thing about it this whole kenponet situation is that it is probably a 12 year old purple-belt writing these things and because everybody is getting upset and responding and getting angry he is going to write some more.  I think he probably is laughing at me right now because I spent this much time with a written response about it anyway.  Oh well...

Oss

Dun Ringill


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 5, 2003)

"The more defensive people get over whether or not either of these gentlemen is gay the more I tend to believe that there might be a kernel of truth about it."

Well, that's the kind of talk that should help.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> * An example of one of these cliques is Wes Idol, clyde t. o'briant, and Billy lear, i've studied and watched them act rude and disrespectful towards people who have 20 years on them in the art.  One of those three has been banned from martial talk.  *



Just a note:
None of those 3 have been banned from MartialTalk.  Mr. Lear left of his own accord.

:asian:


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## Dave Simmons (Jul 5, 2003)

Generally speaking I do not post much on Kenponet. I have noticed recently, the last six months or so, the broad base of Kenpo respondents do not represent anything other than only a few. I don't like sexual preference issues because it's personal to say the least!

Unfortunately, what has happened is everything is clique oriented. Very few non EPAK or non AK people will waste the energy to post any longer. Heaven knows I have "ruffled a few feathers" but it brought about discussion and opinion.

It's sad to see Kenponet with these problems.

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate
www.mnkenpo.com


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## Kirk (Jul 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I think, actually, that the "negative," means the repeated sarcastic attacks on  folks like Mr. Tatum, the repeated personal insults (calling people, "homos," now seems to be in vogue), the mean-spirited anonymous posting, etc.
> 
> There is nothing to be done about it, other than to note that it is a real pity that so many people studying martial arts have gotten by without learning  respect, courtesy, or even basic good manners.
> ...



That's exactly what I meant, thank you.


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## Fastmover (Jul 5, 2003)

The problem I have with the Kenponet is the anonymous posters.
It  does get out of control. Still I would not become upset about attacks toward anyone in particular including Mr. Tatum or any one else. He is just the target of the day and soon it will be someone else. If Mr Tatum were not upseting someone then it would be time to be worried. The quickest way to fail is to pleaze everyone. Otherwise Id say we were all just a bunch of  "homers" cheering for the home team!! Me included!!!

Be Good

John


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## Wes Idol (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *I think the funny thing is that Wes Idol is screaming for a deletion of the posts when he principally did the same thing not to long ago to Ron Chapel by questioning whether or not he was a real 10th degree.*



Clarifying the reality of someone's rank and history is quite a bit different than someone posting sexually inapropriate comments on a public forum.

WI, HI
UKS


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## Dun Ringill (Jul 7, 2003)

Both are disrespectful and both shouldn't be conducted in a public forum.  It would have been different if either of these seniors got on the forum and attacked people but they didn't.  Ron Chapel was answering history questions about his 40 some odd years in the art and Mike Pick and Larry Tatum didn't really post at all.  There is only a slight difference in calling Larry Tatum and MIke PIck "homos" and calling Ron Chapel and illigitamate 10th degree.  Both of them produced the same results--the seniors are refusing to post on the kenponet because of the actions of the younger generations of Kenpoists.  What did you think you were going to solve by questioning someone's rank on something ilke the kenponet?  Just like what did those people that were making fun of Larry Tatum's wife (the jillybean comment) think they were going to accomplish?  A divorce for Larry Tatum or Ron Chapel giving his rank to you to hold until you felt he deserved it?  I guess it's something to think about for the future if these message boards ever want any of the seniors to come back under their real names and post.

Salute


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## Michael Billings (Jul 7, 2003)

I have not checked out KenpoNet in a couple of weeks due to work.  I cannot believe this stuff.

Gender bias and homophobic responses aside, can't they think of a more articulate and maybe even more impactful insult, sans cursing, or junior high school name calling?  

*Only an ignorant man (not to be confused with someone's education level) has to result to name calling to express his opinions.*  It would appear that insults are being traded that would never be spoken directly to the person.

Who, other than me, has heard the story of Mr. Parker getting on a plane and flying into Dallas when he heard what was being said about him and Kenpo by some martial artists from another system and country?  

It is a small world guys, and who knows who will show up on their doorsteps.  It is pretty sad when it gets to the name calling point, the next step is actually physical threats.  Lord help us, can you say Jerry Springer and Kenpo in the same breath ... I sure hope not.


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## Wes Idol (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *What did you think you were going to solve *



If so many friends, family members and private students of Ed Parker Sr. contridict what one man is claiming as history, where is the wrong doing?   Surely I could sit back and say nothing, but the history of "our" art means a little more to me than that.

WI, HI
UKS


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 7, 2003)

Only thing new on Kenponet is the rush of guys posting under, "anonymous," or some made-up name, pretending to be polite while working to start trouble.

There is no cure for it, other than a sudden rush of good manners and courtesy throughout the martial arts world. (HA!)

I prefer to see everybody use their real name for precisely this reason. And the explanations people give for not using their real name strike me as utterly bogus. I figure, if you can't say it at your home school, you probably need to a) keep your mouth shut, b) find another school--except in very rare instances.

But--it's hopeless. The wave's presently rollin' in; it'll roll back out.


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## Guiseppe Betri (Jul 7, 2003)

Wes Idol-

With all the bogus claims to the highest ranks of black belt, how did you decide upon questioning Ron Chapel?  If you are totally and completely concerned with history of the Art, it seems as if there are several others you could have thought of first.  Why are several of the legitimate 9ths refusing to take a 10th, with others in the Art who do not have nearly the time (as these 9ths) taking the 10th as soon as they can get their hands on it?  That is a question I have pondered for years and years.  Any insight?


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## Wes Idol (Jul 7, 2003)

Guiseppe Betri - 

Chapel was not the only one.  Hell, I contacted Mr. Pick and inquired about his current rank of 10th.  Although there are others that simply avoid answering to their claims, Mr. Pick is one that simply told me truths about his experiences with Parker that were verified by friends, family members and private students of Ed Parker Sr.    

Regarding others, there are many.  I think that some stand out because of their willingness to communicate so much on the internet.

WI, HI
UKS


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## Dun Ringill (Jul 7, 2003)

In the school I was raised in,  I didn't know of a single black belt over 4th degree that felt he had to answer to a 3rd degree black belt.  That has got to be the most ridiculous statement Ihave ever read.  Are you the keeper of Kenpo's history, because if you are, there is a lot that happened before chow and mitose you are missing.  Are you trying to tell me that nobody can be a legitamite 10th degree in this art unless you have verified it through the friends and family plan?  C'mon Wes, it's time to stop playing this game and just let it go.


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## Wes Idol (Jul 7, 2003)

Dun Ringill, 

I invite you to take deep breaths and relax...I was merely answering someone's question.  

Personally, if I see an injustice, I'm willing to get some mud on my shirt to help put the problem in check.  This does not make me anything more than willing.  If your willingness is towards staying on the sidelines and keeping clean, you are not wrong, just different.


WI, HI
UKS


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## Dun Ringill (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> 
> Personally, if I see an injustice, I'm willing to get some mud on my shirt to help put the problem in check.  This does not make me anything more than willing.  If your willingness is towards staying on the sidelines and keeping clean, you are not wrong, just different.
> 
> ...



You saw an injustice with Ron Chapel's promotion to 10th degree but Mike Pick's promotion to 10th degree was okay?  C'mon Wes, you are reaching here.  I have never heard of any 9th or 10th degree that was a personal student of Ed Parker back any of your claims.  That is the whole situation, every fact and claim that you are supporting comes from word of mouth.  You were never there.  I'm sure you are very adept at history but this is something that is kind of over your head.  Unless you can answer "yes" to these two questions:

1--Were you a personal student of Ed Parker?

2--Were you involved in kenpo (or martial arts) in the 1960's?

Can you answer yes to either or both of these questions?

I can.

Salute


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 7, 2003)

sorry, I'd like to interject a question. Are you saying a person should not be elligable for 10nth unless he trained in the 60s? If so, does that mean someone who started in 69 is more valid than someone who started in 1970? I'm just askin'.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *You saw an injustice with Ron Chapel's promotion to 10th degree but Mike Pick's promotion to 10th degree was okay?  C'mon Wes, you are reaching here.  I have never heard of any 9th or 10th degree that was a personal student of Ed Parker back any of your claims.  That is the whole situation, every fact and claim that you are supporting comes from word of mouth.  You were never there.  I'm sure you are very adept at history but this is something that is kind of over your head.  Unless you can answer "yes" to these two questions:
> 
> 1--Were you a personal student of Ed Parker?
> ...



Interesting, Dun Ringill is actually a monolith in Scotland.   I knew it was an alias but couldn't tag exactly what it was.   

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Wes Idol (Jul 8, 2003)

Dun Ringill - 

I never said I had a problem with what rank Ron Chapel has decided to wear...you did.  

Seeing that you have found comfort in referring to me by my first name, which is interesting as you and I have never met, this might be a good opportunity to introduce one another.

I've been in Ed Parker's American Kenpo since 1986.  My two main instructors have been Albert Cornejo (1986-1992) and Bryan Hawkins (1992-present).  Within that time I have concurrently trained at Ed Parker's West LA studio, privately with Frank Trejo (as one of his fighters), at the home of Larry Tatum and at the home of Mike Pick.  I hold a 3rd degree Black Belt under Bryan Hawkins, which I earned on October 27, 2000.  My other Martial studies included time at Benny Urquidez' "Jet Center," Boxing under Jim Tunney (Gene Tunney's Grandson), Taekwondo training under Robert Lennon (the first non Korean to be invited to the Kukkiwan instructor's camp in Seoul, Korea), FMA training with Innosanto trained players as well as a variety of different practitioners over the years from a variety of systems that can be found in Los Angeles.

Now that you know something about me, I respectfully invite you to share some of your background, and please include where you currently train...and who you train under?

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS


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## Dun Ringill (Jul 8, 2003)

That was an impressive resume, kudos to you and your training I hope it is going well for you.  As for me, I started in Hawaii in 1959 and when I moved to the mainland I began instruction under Senior Grandmaster Parker where I remained until his untimely death in 1990.  I am a certain level in my training where I cannot pick up the phone book and find an instructor at my level.  but that is all I wish to share about my resume.  Wes, I thought we could have a friendly conversation, please don't bring experience and "time on the mat" into this.  At least we can agree on one thing, that the kenponet has gone completely downhill because of the disrespectful attitudes of the majority of the posters.

Salute


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *That was an impressive resume, kudos to you and your training I hope it is going well for you.  As for me, I started in Hawaii in 1959 and when I moved to the mainland I began instruction under Senior Grandmaster Parker where I remained until his untimely death in 1990.  I am a certain level in my training where I cannot pick up the phone book and find an instructor at my level.  but that is all I wish to share about my resume.  Wes, I thought we could have a friendly conversation, please don't bring experience and "time on the mat" into this.  At least we can agree on one thing, that the kenponet has gone completely downhill because of the disrespectful attitudes of the majority of the posters.
> 
> Salute *



Interesting, you said you would be teaching at the Homecoming in Pasadena and I was curious if you weren't on the list of  instructors?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Wes Idol (Jul 8, 2003)

Mr. Ringill, 

I appreciate you taking the time to share some of your path with me.  Certainly I do not mean "time on the mat" as anything more than just getting to know one another.  Being that this art is a common denominator, I assumed that conversation regarding our experience is a sound place of interest when introducing each other.

My I ask when you started with Mr. Parker?  I'm interested in which school you trained at.  Training with Parker until 1990 might have had you crossing paths with many that I know.

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 8, 2003)

Actually, I'm just interested in a real name.


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## Michael Billings (Jul 8, 2003)

you cynical devil you.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 8, 2003)

Oh, sure, like it's EASY being Satan.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 8, 2003)

Robert:  Are you going to vote for me to get the KenpoNet Troll Award -- or do I have to really push the 11th and 12th degree thing again.  Hmmmm, maybe I could suggest making ground grappling a requirement for 11th Degree.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Oh, sure, like it's EASY being Satan. *


I knew it! Can I be your advocate?


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## Sigung86 (Jul 12, 2003)

Robert is Satan?  Yeowww...  He said it ... I respect him, and therefore believe him... But now I'm looking for a new job. :lol:

OldFatKenpoka is a stuck record? Yeowww ... SGM Parker put a cap on your art at 10th.  Damn!  I wish I should apply for the position.

Wes came back with the usual one sided inanity?  Yeowww ... 
And after he voluntarily left?  I guess he just doesn't get enough of being laughed at.

Dun is now under fire to some degree because he chooses not to share information with Wes and company ... Same old story, but a new target.   

Some things just never seem to change... :shrug: 

Damn... I keep forgetting that I'm not American Kenpo and most of these salacious little things, Robert excluded, are amusing to most everyone else. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:  Well, except for Robert!

His plucky and insightful posts leave me no doubt that he is Satanic! :lol:  Just kidding old friend. :lol:

Saintly Uncle Dan


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 12, 2003)

First off, Satan is not, "plucky and insightful." The Brave Little Toaster is plucky. Satan is...he's...Satan is satanic, so there.

And I'm not hiring new advocates. I've got Dan Quayle.


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## Dun Ringill (Jul 12, 2003)

:


Wes came back with the usual one sided inanity?  Yeowww ... 
And after he voluntarily left?  I guess he just doesn't get enough of being laughed at.

Dun is now under fire to some degree because he chooses not to share information with Wes and company ... Same old story, but a new target.   

I shared my info with Wes, after my time and committment to the art I always make it a practice to ensure that all 3rd degree black belts who haven't been in the art 1/4 of the time I have are satisfied with my credentials.  But Wes did welcome me to the family.


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## Wes Idol (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Wes came back with the usual one sided inanity?  Yeowww ...
> And after he voluntarily left?  I guess he just doesn't get enough of being laughed at.*





> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *I shared my info with Wes, after my time and committment to the art I always make it a practice to ensure that all 3rd degree black belts who haven't been in the art 1/4 of the time I have are satisfied with my credentials.  But Wes did welcome me to the family. *



Sad you both chose sarcasm...that is if you are two different people.

WI, HI
UKS


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## Dun Ringill (Jul 13, 2003)

Yes we are two different people.  I just don't feel that at my rank and time in the art I need to answer to anybody.  I stood before Senior GrandMaster Edmund Parker and took his instruction, admonishments, critique, and praise.  You did not.  I don't have a problem with that, maybe it was just my good fortune to be able to have the instruction from the founder of our art.  I do not feel that I need to answer for the time I spent with him to you, or anybody else on any forum.  So please do not attack me or question my qualifications.  I have worked very hard for the knowledge that  I have so that I may give it to my students who also work hard.  Anyway I'm sure we can revisit this issue at a later time.

Salute


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## Wes Idol (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _
> *So please do not attack me or question my qualifications.*



I and others have simply never heard your name before...instead of jumping to any assumptions about the reality of your name and/or claims, I simply thought to respectfully ask you.

WI, HI
UKS


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## Sigung86 (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wes Idol _
> *I and others have simply never heard your name before...instead of jumping to any assumptions about the reality of your name and/or claims, I simply thought to respectfully ask you.
> 
> WI, HI
> UKS *


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