# An appeal for other traditional ninja styles - GC



## Shogun (Aug 13, 2004)

> So if someone knows of a legitimate style of ninjutsu that can be traced back to Japan, please let me know.


 Bujinkan Taijutsu. h ha ha. HA.....no....nothing?.....not even a titter? huh.

Has anyone heard of the Koga Ryu Videos by Juan Hobre? his name sounds authentic Japanese.lol.


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## Enson (Aug 14, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So if someone knows of a legitimate style of ninjutsu that can be traced back to Japan, please let me know.


look into yourself and you mind find it! hee hee!, maybe you are the missing link... or the weakest link? hee hee! (j/k)  had to don!


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## Don Roley (Aug 15, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> look into yourself and you mind find it! hee hee!, maybe you are the missing link... or the weakest link? hee hee! (j/k)  had to don!



Enson, Please stop trying to disrupt these forums and let us deal with things in a serious manner. Your crusade against me is proving distracting.


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## r.severe (Aug 15, 2004)

WOW..  Donny shihan, now now now..
""Enson, Please stop trying to disrupt these forums and let us deal with things in a serious manner. Your crusade against me is proving distracting.""

Donny shihan are you really saying this.. you're the master of this yourself..

But with all due respect to you, I must say you are correct in your post and have written a very good story on the Koga ryu... very nice. I hope you can do more work like that on this forum.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## r.severe (Aug 16, 2004)

I really never ask for proof.
With my experience I just watch.

The human being lives on their ego and fear.
Once this is uncovered and the path is exposed then the truth becomes very easy to put to the test on the battle field or mat if pride or integrity is questioned.

But saying you are right or they are worng gives no one peace.
The web or forums seem to not prove right or wrong about anything I have come to question myself.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Enson (Aug 16, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Enson, Please stop trying to disrupt these forums and let us deal with things in a serious manner. Your crusade against me is proving distracting.


no one has a crusade against you... well no one outside of your dreams anyway.


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## r.severe (Aug 16, 2004)

Donny shihan, with the subject of "proof".. being questioned... why not prove some of your facts for us..
Like why you say you live in Japan and really you do not.. or do you and why you avoid your background in martial arts.. and not bring up our personal relationship from the past... or poast infor about yourself on your web site.. photos.. and some proof of your fighting experience.. I believe many here would love to hear what Donny shoihan is really like outside the forum hidden behind his desk...

Now now.. you know you cannot follow me around and see me fight Donny shihan.. I would have to take you on as a student to do so.. 
My fights are more or less like your life.. hidden.. and no proof.
I understand your feelings and why you are the way you are from what I know about you Donny shihan.. Trust me I know.
What fool has a record of street fights Donny shihan?
This alone tells me you know little or nothing of fighting in the street.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Dale Seago (Aug 16, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Donny shihan, with the subject of "proof".. being questioned... why not prove some of your facts for us..
> Like why you say you live in Japan and really you do not..



Don certainly had ME fooled: Met me at Narita airport on one of my trips over there and took me straight to Nagase sensei's class, where everyone seemed to know him and he translated for Nagase. From there he drove me to this house he pretended to live in, complete with a Japanese woman pretending to be his wife and a little dog and cat. Put me up there for a week. Even took me to an English poetry event at a Japanese school, where he'd somehow gotten everyone to pretend that he was a teacher of English so that the illusion of his being a Japan resident wouldn't be spoiled.

It was a truly masterful con, I have to give Don that much. I never even suspected.


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## Enson (Aug 16, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Don certainly had ME fooled: Met me at Narita airport on one of my trips over there and took me straight to Nagase sensei's class, where everyone seemed to know him and he translated for Nagase. From there he drove me to this house he pretended to live in, complete with a Japanese woman pretending to be his wife and a little dog and cat. Put me up there for a week. Even took me to an English poetry event at a Japanese school, where he'd somehow gotten everyone to pretend that he was a teacher of English so that the illusion of his being a Japan resident wouldn't be spoiled.
> 
> It was a truly masterful con, I have to give Don that much. I never even suspected.


well there you go! the ultimate ninja! hee hee! :ultracool


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## Don Roley (Aug 16, 2004)

Of course Dale is part of the conspiracy to make people think I live in Japan.  :wink2: 

This thread is not about me. Rather than hijacking it some more, I invite Ralph Severe to take his questions to a thread I started to deflect disruptive questioning of my experience and abilities in other threads. You can find it here. 

It is in a section of e-budo that Ralph seems to not spend a lot of time reading. There is another thread in the same section devoted to him that he has never bothered to respond to. You can find it here. . Since Ralph is a member of e-budo, he can ask his questions there  instead of in this thread.


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## r.severe (Aug 17, 2004)

I feel you will find the truth at www.artofcombat.com about me.
Not on some forum where you can lie and mislead others about yourself Donny...
I'm open and honest.. how about you?
Birds of a feather flock together.. hey Dale shihan...

It's really simple Donny shihan.. we can get James to come on here and then.. well you know.. the truth be told about you and your past.
But why trouble him?
I hope you are not really thinking I'm the only one who knows..
Anything else?
Why not get back to the post.. subject...

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Aug 17, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> no one has a crusade against you... well no one outside of your dreams anyway.



Can you look at Ralph Severe's posts and still say this with a straight face? First he tries to say I do not live in Japan. When that was shot down he switched over to less specific accusations and hinting that there was something he knew but wasn't going to say. Hint hint, nudge nudge.

So sad that he is allowed to disrupt a thread like this. I would like to have a thread describing how I am searching for another ninjutsu tradition in Japan, but have yet to find one. And then invite peopel to let me know of any they may have heard of or suspect so that I can check them out. But of course, some people have their agendas.


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## Enson (Aug 17, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Can you look at Ralph Severe's posts and still say this with a straight face? First he tries to say I do not live in Japan. When that was shot down he switched over to less specific accusations and hinting that there was something he knew but wasn't going to say. Hint hint, nudge nudge.
> 
> So sad that he is allowed to disrupt a thread like this. I would like to have a thread describing how I am searching for another ninjutsu tradition in Japan, but have yet to find one. And then invite peopel to let me know of any they may have heard of or suspect so that I can check them out. But of course, some people have their agendas.


well... i think ralph was using an example of your claims. he said no one here has no proof and they all take  your word. this might have been caused by your consistent attacks against him. as for his reasons/agendas couldn't tell you.

what he knows about you...? :idunno: i think if he is brave enough to make a threat than he should put it out on the table. if you say he has nothing on you then call his bluff.

as far as your find of traditional ninjutsu... well if you have been looking for years and have found nothing; or have not accepted anything well... when you finally do find something... let us know.


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## Kreth (Aug 17, 2004)

Maybe I'm missing something. What claims has Don made, other than the fact that he lives in Japan, and trains with Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihan? Oh yeah, and he makes these ridiculous requests that groups claiming lineage to Japan actually be able to prove it...

Jeff


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## ronhughen (Aug 17, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm missing something. What claims has Don made, other than the fact that he lives in Japan, and trains with Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihan? Oh yeah, and he makes these ridiculous requests that groups claiming lineage to Japan actually be able to prove it...
> 
> Jeff


 
Gosh, if you read his posts, he (don shihan) seems to be THE expert on EVERYTHING.  But, he never steps up to the post when asked to provide some evidence or proof that he is what he seems to be representing himself to be.  I tried for a while to get him to do it, he never directly dealth with it so I gave up . . . not that important to me . . .


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## r.severe (Aug 17, 2004)

Well Ron sensei I would have to agree... Donny shihan does AVOID questions..
And what's so funny he does not have a dojo or students of his own.. or any fighting experience..
You have to ask that question.. when dealing with his forum ego.

Jeff sensei,
I'm very happy you asked....
I feel Donny shihan has made many post implying he has some knowledge on fighting.. either it is street fighting or matches he has had.
He can't back that up.. I've spoken to people who know him from his past... he would be telling lies if he said he did.. have experience with fighting.. as well as had conversations with him in the past about his training and experience.
He is in fact very good at making you believe what he has to say by his watching tapes and books.. and of course seminars.. but.. really.. he has no hands on experience with being beaten up or beating up anyone else.
He lives through others and what they can do.. this would be the problem with posting any information on himself as in history and photos on the web...
Like others I know who in fact have experience and nothing to HIDE he hides everything. Ponder that..
All mainly he has is history to help him look like he's got the bone and you don't..
But history doesn't make you a experienced fighter or experienced at warrior arts.
Getting out in the mud, climbing fences, hiding from attackers, shooting, survival training, fighting, sparring, etc.. does in fact give you these skills.. not web research or books..
I know you understand because of your experiences..
The question is how can we look so knowledgeable like Donny shihan without ever going to the post or doing 'real' training that matters?
I want to do it his way...
I'm tired and in pain from my training..
Well his finger tips should be in good condition from the key board.. LOL..
Again thanks for the question..
Hope you are doing well..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 18, 2004)

Mr. Severe, dont take this as an attack on you and i'm by no means sticking up for Don but why do you look down on him because of his supposed lack of fighting experiance.

If a man can train hard in ninjutsu and become very knowledgable on the topic while avoiding physical confrontation with randoms wishing to beat on him then that is a good history/quality to have. To have the training (which i'm sure Don has) because one can only learn so much from books and videos. And his knowledge shows that it exceeds any seminar.
So he has the training and the knowledge but also the discipline not to unleash it unless he absolutely has to, where is the negative in that?

I have been in a few brawls myself,but i dont look at that as a positive, it doesnt make me more of a man or put me further along the track to being a warrior. Isnt the better/more intelligent warrior one who can avoid conflict unless there is no other alternative?

I may be wrong but i just read your post as though you were highlighting Don's lack of fighting experiance as a negative while promoting a sense of masculinty because yourself and others HAVE been in fights...sounds a little childish to me but i may have misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

much respect
-andrew


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## mpearce (Aug 18, 2004)

Now I understand why Sensei hates the internet. After reading all of the garbage everyone has posted on this thread. I would hope that people of rank would act more like adults and the Shihan they are suppose to be. Sensei told me that the translation for Shihan is "Gentleman teacher" and the "Teacher of gentlemen". But all I see on this site is children bickering about who is the toughest. If it were all about this "fight" experiance then even Sensei wouldn't be able to teach, as he says he hasn't had a lot of combat experiance. Notice I use combat and not fight as children fight. And as for real technique I would love to see anyone go up against Sensei. I know for years I have tried to hit him, and as of yet I am the one on the floor wishing I hadn't. And that is why people with real combat experiance come and train with Sensei. Not because he has been in it; so much as because he can teach what is real and works.

 Michael Pearce


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## althaur (Aug 18, 2004)

Thank you, Mr. Pearce.  I think what needed to be said was just said.


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## Enson (Aug 18, 2004)

mpearce said:
			
		

> Now I understand why Sensei hates the internet. After reading all of the garbage everyone has posted on this thread. I would hope that people of rank would act more like adults and the Shihan they are suppose to be. Sensei told me that the translation for Shihan is "Gentleman teacher" and the "Teacher of gentlemen". But all I see on this site is children bickering about who is the toughest. If it were all about this "fight" experiance then even Sensei wouldn't be able to teach, as he says he hasn't had a lot of combat experiance. Notice I use combat and not fight as children fight. And as for real technique I would love to see anyone go up against Sensei. I know for years I have tried to hit him, and as of yet I am the one on the floor wishing I hadn't. And that is why people with real combat experiance come and train with Sensei. Not because he has been in it; so much as because he can teach what is real and works.
> 
> Michael Pearce


what sensei would this be?


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## Dale Seago (Aug 18, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> what sensei would this be?



If you use the title this way in the Bujinkan, it's automatically understood to refer to the Soke, Masaaki Hatsumi. Michael Pearce is a senior Bujinkan instructor living in Japan.


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## Enson (Aug 18, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> If you use the title this way in the Bujinkan, it's automatically understood to refer to the Soke, Masaaki Hatsumi. Michael Pearce is a senior Bujinkan instructor living in Japan.


i didn't know who he was because he didn't have any info about him.
thanks for clearing that for me


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## r.severe (Aug 18, 2004)

I have been in a few brawls myself,but i dont look at that as a positive, it doesnt make me more of a man or put me further along the track to being a warrior. Isnt the better/more intelligent warrior one who can avoid conflict unless there is no other alternative?

**ky, Andrew, I enjoyed your post and it says a lot but fails to uncover the truth of what I am saying.. and saying openly&#8230; but here are a few examples to help out in my riddles&#8230;. if I were a football trainer and had a gang of young men looking to me for leadership to do a good job on the pitch  I would expect I had more to give other than the football books that I have read to coach these guys. If I were a solider and had a leader in the face of battle I would really hope they had experience under fire to help me live through the horrors of war on the battle field. 
With these I will admit to any and all police officers who come in to train shooting with me that I do not have their experience on the job or in the field where they work everyday. I only train them in what &#8220;I&#8221; have experience in, shooting targets well.
When a younger fighter comes in and needed upgraded training in his field of HNB then I have that experience.
If asked by a reporter about street fighting then I can talk freely without making up lies and stories to make myself look good.
Andrew I don&#8217;t feel fighting is negative or positive. It&#8217;s karmatic. It comes from a reaction to cause and effect.
If you live a life that is focused on negative then so be it.. it comes.. and so forth.. 
Training to ready yourself for conflicts doesn&#8217;t give you the right to say you have experience in the field you are training in without first getting out and getting that experience. 
And of course it is very important in my personal life to avoid all conflicts.. mainly physically. 
This doesn&#8217;t mean I have to make up things about my past or lie about my experience.
Feelings of good and bad right and wrong are not the point with my post.
My point is hearing someone confess to things they have no idea of personally.
I hope you understand.************

I may be wrong but i just read your post as though you were highlighting Don's lack of fighting experience as a negative while promoting a sense of masculinity because yourself and others HAVE been in fights...sounds a little childish to me but i may have misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

**ky, Andrew, Yes, it is negative as far as being experienced in it is.. of course. 
If you are going to write about things you in fact have no experience with then you need to be called out on it.. and Donny shihan has been called out many times over his misleading lies and false personal attacks over the forums he visited. 
Ha ha, I can&#8217;t see how any points I have made have anything to do with &#8216;masculinity&#8217; or in and yo.
The significant points are..  don&#8217;t lie or be misleading.
If it is an opinion then say so without making it sound like 'you' have some knowledge of the subject from experience.
If you are going to be traditional in bujutsu start with honor.******

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 19, 2004)

"And of course it is very important in my personal life to avoid all conflicts.. mainly physically."

I strongly agree with that, and its a great attitude to have, unfortunately it is rare among people these days...Thankyou for clearing up your post, it now makes alot more sense.I have little knowledge of your history with Don so i will say nothing further.

much respect
-andrew


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## r.severe (Aug 19, 2004)

Thanks for the reply.
As you will see in his post he will avoid what I'm posting and mislead others with more of his dancing around the subject.

Donny shihan use to be a nice guy.. a really good guy.. but somewhere he changed.
Hey I hear everyone changes.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## julian (Aug 19, 2004)

stop posting please this is so pathetic and does not serve any use, you guys should be ashamed and need to grow up.
i see the same ego driven rubbish on just about every MA forum with ninjutsu, it gets tiresome


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## r.severe (Aug 19, 2004)

Hello,
Ok.. I'm sorry that you read this post and feel it is not worth reading or feel it is immature.
My regrets are there are people who mislead others on forums and should be exposed.

I'll say no more on this thread.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 19, 2004)

Julian, you make some good points and its all very true.

However its very easy to make those comments looking in from the outside.
The ninjutsu forum situated on martialtalk is a small community lol,there are friends there are enemies,there are debates and agreements,negative comments and compliments,we are all both victims and responsible for all of this,there is history here  And as a newcomer most of what is said would seem like mindless childlike b*tching, But its not fair for you to say so without understanding why it exists....
Basically what i am trying to say it that you are correct in everything you said,however it will be a long wait before there is significant change,and this kind of talk and mentality exists everywhere,the internet is no different.

If you dont like it walk away,thats an option you have with the internet.

much respect
-andrew


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## ronhughen (Aug 19, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> As you will see in his post he will avoid what I'm posting and mislead others with more of his dancing around the subject.


Yes . . . he's formed a little power center here in the virtual world . . . how impressive!


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## ronhughen (Aug 20, 2004)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> Mr. Severe, dont take this as an attack on you and i'm by no means sticking up for Don but why do you look down on him because of his supposed lack of fighting experiance.
> 
> If a man can train hard in ninjutsu and become very knowledgable on the topic while avoiding physical confrontation with randoms wishing to beat on him then that is a good history/quality to have. To have the training (which i'm sure Don has) because one can only learn so much from books and videos. And his knowledge shows that it exceeds any seminar.
> So he has the training and the knowledge but also the discipline not to unleash it unless he absolutely has to, where is the negative in that?
> ...


Mr. Severe, dont take this as an attack on you and i'm by no means sticking up for Don but why do you look down on him because of his supposed lack of fighting experiance.  



Maybe because Don questions Ralph shihans fighting experience because Ralph does not produce proof . . . Well, I have made statements that substantiate Ralph shihans claims, but that is not acceptable. . . so, I am also being called a liar?  And, really, in the real world we live in . . .  who is going to go running to the police after a fight?  I saw a TV show where a guy got arrested because he pulled a stick out of his car to defend himself against a guy attacking him . . . you are better off walking away and not getting the police involved . . . I thought that was a pretty common attitude in martial arts . . . 


If a man can train hard in ninjutsu and become very knowledgable on the topic while avoiding physical confrontation with randoms wishing to beat on him then that is a good history/quality to have.



Yes, I behave that way . . . I try to even avoid non-physical confrontations . . . and so does Ralph shihan . . . he just happens to have a lot of experiences . . . all of us gain enlightenment through our own path. . . mine has been through standing on the shoulders of giants . . . Ralph shihan is a giant . . . .



To have the training (which i'm sure Don has) . . . So, I wish you would tell me why you are sure he has the training . . . a while back I asked him to prove things he says about himself and he ignored me . . . He asked the same about Ralph shihan, really asking for proof that could not be provided, and then publicly chastised Ralph shihan when he could not produce the specific proof he asked for . . . Most of what Don shihan says seems to be from things hes read or heard from others  . . . not his own experiences . . .  not HIS knowledge . . . it all reminds me of the C**P going on in the political world now . . .





because one can only learn so much from books and videos. And his knowledge shows that it exceeds any seminar.  



And . . . as one who learns a lot from books and videos . . . I ask you how much is so much? . . .  is it a lot or a little?  How do you define so much??   And can you explain to me what you mean by his knowledge shows that it exceeds any seminar??


So he has the training and the knowledge but also the discipline not to unleash it unless he absolutely has to, where is the negative in that? 



. . . I am Ralph shihans student, and I have been in encounters that I COULD have chosen to fight, but did not . . .  I have written on this forum that I have known Ralph shihan for many years, and that his claims are true, but I am ignored, so why should I accept your claims about Don shihan?  What proof or evidence can you offer in support of his claims of knowledge?  


I have been in a few brawls myself, but i dont look at that as a positive, it doesnt make me more of a man or put me further along the track to being a warrior. Isnt the better/more intelligent warrior one who can avoid conflict unless there is no other alternative? 



. . . Yes, of course it is . . . but there may be times that you may have no choice . . and then your life may depend upon your training . . . THAT fact is why I was attracted to the Ralph Severe system, because the experiences he has, together with his study (of books and videos and . . . etc . . .) and the experience he has from many years of honest training  (he REALLY trains all this stuff . . .) . . . that combination, makes the things that hes teaching meaningful to help me deal with the real world (the modern real world).

I may be wrong but i just read your post as though you were highlighting Don's lack of fighting experiance as a negative while promoting a sense of masculinty because yourself and others HAVE been in fights...sounds a little childish to me but i may have misinterpreted what you were trying to say.



I think he mainly tries to stress that actual fighting experience gives one a knowledge you cant get otherwise . . . I dont have his experience, but he is willing to share the knowledge he has gained from it with me and others . . . why does anybody have a problem with that?


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 20, 2004)

Ron, i dont disagree with anything you said, you seem to be a loyal friend and good at honouring your dojo and obviously your instructor/good friend Ralph Severe.
Just in case you read it the wrong way i DONT have anything against the art of combat Severe system,simply because i dont know either of you nor have i seen the art or read enough about it,therefore i have no reason to say anything more on the subject.

As far as being "sure" that Don has first hand knowledge/experience i was just assuming,i still believe he does just from knowing the guy through the internet (which isnt a very valid source) and the words of Dale Shihan.But that is just my opinion. Just because i believe the words of Don doesnt been i disrespect the Ralph Severe camp. 

Lets not be so defensive...CHILL:supcool: 

much respect
-andrew


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## r.severe (Aug 20, 2004)

Andrew, Well faith or belief that someone has experience is not fact they do.. it's just your opinion... until he dispalys proof of himself.. then he is not telling you anything.. that you are not making up on your own.
If it was not immature I would have many people who know of my experience come and post on this forum.. but what would that prove?
My web site has many photos on it that in FACT show how I teach and train... and from that you or anyone else can make a mature mental picture of what reality is...
Donny shihan does no such...
He quotes from books and web sites.. NOTHING more.
Anyone can sound knowledgeable from using books and web sites.. and I feel you understand this..
I know about Donny shihan past and his teacher(s) and know what they have told me about his training and have had personal conversation with him my self about his training many years ago..
I hope you understand the point.. it's not personal.. it's just not right to lie.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## ronhughen (Aug 20, 2004)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> Lets not be so defensive...CHILL:supcool:


Not defensive at all . . . . I'm cool!


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## r.severe (Aug 24, 2004)

Andrew,
Why not e-mail these guys and see what my training is all about...
Get first hand opinions and not hear say...
These guys are all dojo-cho of there own groups...
See if what you are hearing is true or not..

Rich Henderson
Genin3@aol.com

Ron Hugnen
shikoyama@yahoo.com

Robert Kesterson
robertk@robertk.com

Kevin Cain
theartofwar@usa.com

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 25, 2004)

Ralph,

Thankyou for that post and those links. I feel i have been dragged between you and Don and dont wish to be in the position any longer,i am not involved enough nor do i care enough to email you're mates for opinions. I have nothing against you or Don or either of you're training.I take Dons word on his training,as i do yours. Call me gullible or foolish if you wish,But if someone is being dishonest that is not my problem,that is their personal flaw.

Thanks again though.

much respect
-andrew


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## Don Roley (Aug 28, 2004)

How amusing.

I go away for some trainiNg for a week and come back to see a full on attack on me by Ralph and his student. I really can not get upset about it. I am really more amused by the whole thing. Despite what Micheal and Julian have said, I am not really concerned that many people will listen to Ralph's rants against me. Maybe if Ralph had not tried to spread the falsehood that I do not live in Japan people would take his later comments more seriously.

But for now, I am enjoying watching the things they say about me. Please continue on.


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## Kizaru (Aug 29, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> My fights are more or less like your life.. hidden.. and no proof.
> I understand your feelings and why you are the way you are from what I know about you Donny shihan.. Trust me I know.
> ralph severe, kamiyama


Mr. Severe/Kamiyama sama,

Donny Shihan's past actions are not a secret to everyone. I am familiar with them myself. After reading the preivious posts, I have come to the conclusion that it would be best for everyone if we exposed him here and now, rather than allow Donny Shihan to continue hiding.

I regret having to be the one to do this...

The truth is, when Donny Shihan cuts the cheese at Honbu dojo, EVERYONE can smell it, but he denies it. It's sad when a grown man can't take responsibility for his own bodily functions...He even goes as far to tell the Japanese Shihan instructing that it was someone else who comitted the offense, usually someone else with Japanese language skills incomparable to his own! This is not fair, and Donny Shihan, you can no longer avoid responsibility.

Donny Shihan, when you pass wind, we ALL know it. You can't hide anymore.


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## Don Roley (Aug 29, 2004)

Let he who is without wind cast the first stone.........


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 29, 2004)

Kizaru, how old are you? i dont even know you but that was a very poor attack if thats what you intended it to be. Seriously man that was low, raise your bar a little man...

welcome back Don, hope the training went well.

much respect
-andrew


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## Kizaru (Aug 29, 2004)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> Kizaru, how old are you?


Old enough to know Kamiyama could probably learn something from Donny Shihan's "Japan Experience".

Old enough to know Donny Shihan could probably learn something from Kamiyama's "Life Experience".

Old enough to know that taking little things too seriously and being angry all the time is a waste of a life. 

Old enough to know that a little humor, particularly about things that none of us have (much) control over can lighten things up a bit.

I humbly apologize if you are uncomfortable discussing flatulence in a public forum, I know it can at times be a beefy subject. I was just trying to "clear the air".


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## r.severe (Aug 29, 2004)

WOW..
Donny shihan is on a roll...

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Kizaru (Aug 30, 2004)

So what was the original focus of this thread again?

Other ninjutsu styles still surviving in Japan?

I haven't verified all of this, so take it with a grain of salt, but this is what I have heard-

Katori Shinto ryu has a ninjutsu section which is taught to high level students.

Yagyu Shinkage ryu had a group of "Yagyu ninja" operating along what is now route 6 out of Tokyo. One of the senior Japanese Shihan in the Bujinkan had ancestors in this group. Whether the Shinkage ryu still has ninja or ninjutsu in it is still a mystery (to me, at least).

Kukishin ryu was supposed to have ninjutsu in it, and there are other branches besides Hatsumi soke's. Has anyone looked into those groups? Particularly the group that trains at Kumano jinja?

I've heard gossip from multiple sources that there were some modern day yamabushi who trained under Fujita Seiko when he was alive. Supposedly, they had been taught Koga ryu from Fujita Seiko and still have a small training group somewhere near Kyoto. Whether the group is practicing ninjutsu or just shugendo these days, I don't know, rumors conflict.

There was a Japanese gentleman in I believe the October 2000 issue of "Hiden" magazine demonstrating "Koppojutsu", who is not connected to the Bujinkan or Takamatsu sensei in any way. (In the same issue, Hatsumi sensei had an article on the fundamentals of Koto ryu). In his article he explained that his "Koppojutsu" system, which was done empty handed, became "Ninpo" when you did it with "tools" in your hands...anything from everyday items to what we would refer to as a "weapon". His definition of "Ninpo", if memory serves, was "Way or Law of Enduring. When faced with a bad situation, pick anything up and use it to your advantage to win."

Other than that, I haven't heard much else. I haven't really looked for much else either, this information just kind of falls into my lap.

Enjoy!


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 30, 2004)

Thats interesting, especcially the part about the modern day yamabushi training under Fujita Saiko when he was alive. 

Fujita did say in interviews and his books that he trained and spent much time with the yamabushi before he was taught Koga ninpo/ninjutsu by his grandfather. But i havn't read anything about him training other yamabushi, in shugendo methods or ninjutsu. 

As far as i know he never told anyone "in detail" his time with the yamabushi or of his Koga ninjutsu training. Does anyone have any more info on this???

For those that are new or dont know about Fujita Saiko the website is http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/

The  "Saiko Fujita...stranger than truth" article By Sylvain Guitard is well worth a read http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/page8.html

much respect
-andrew


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## Shogun (Aug 30, 2004)

> I humbly apologize if you are uncomfortable discussing flatulence in a public forum, I know it can at times be a beefy subject. I was just trying to "clear the air".


I was unsure if that post was about farting or not. ha ha.
I know you did'nt mean to "cause a stink". It probably was'nt your intention to make any "bad air". thanks for "clearing the confusion". 

Ok I'll stop.

Kyle E


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## Don Roley (Aug 30, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I've heard gossip from multiple sources that there were some modern day yamabushi who trained under Fujita Seiko when he was alive. Supposedly, they had been taught Koga ryu from Fujita Seiko and still have a small training group somewhere near Kyoto. Whether the group is practicing ninjutsu or just shugendo these days, I don't know, rumors conflict.



I have heard those stories and until I get some confirmation, they are firmly in the "unconfirmed rumor" catagory.

I have not heard that story from a Japanese source. Only from the internet and from non-Japanese who seem to have heard it from other non-Japanese.

Folks that knew Fujita don't make mention of it, The Japanese biographers of Fujita I have read for my article don't mention it, and Nakajima who heads the budo research group started by Fujita makes no mention of it in what he has written. the folks who tell me it do not seem to be able to give any firm information on where, who, how, etc to contact these guys- or even their name.

As such, I place little hope in confirming this rumor.

But there are tales of Fujita passing along little bits and pieces of what he knows. One guy tells how he learned a way of judging distances found in the Bansenshukai from Fujita. Not a complete art by a long shot, but it does raise hope that maybe there are other folks out there that learned little bits and pieces that just have not yet come forward.


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## Kizaru (Aug 30, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have heard those stories and until I get some confirmation, they are firmly in the "unconfirmed rumor" catagory.
> 
> I have not heard that story from a Japanese source. Only from the internet and from non-Japanese who seem to have heard it from other non-Japanese.


Loud *POPPING* sound as I pull my head from my rear end....

Have you tried posting this kind of question on a board written in Japanese? Seeing as how this board is in English, law of averages would dictate that we'll mostly see replies from Non-Japanese and Non-Japanese speakers. I've only heard the rumor from two non-Japanese and a hand full of Japanese people.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Folks that knew Fujita don't make mention of it, The Japanese biographers of Fujita I have read for my article don't mention it, .


Where could I take a peak at said article?



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> the folks who tell me it do not seem to be able to give any firm information on where, who, how, etc to contact these guys- or even their name.


If I figure out how to use the Private Message function on this forum, I'll send you a list of people living on or near mountains I've been to, and you can follow up as you want.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> As such, I place little hope in confirming this rumor.


 Confirmed or denied, either way it's a fun story.

Well, off to put my head back where it belongs! (A flexible spine has sooo many advantages!)


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 31, 2004)

Don's article on the Koga-Ryu can be found at http://www.bujinkanwakodojo.com/bwd_kogaryu_history.html

Its quite good and i'm sure you'll get alot out of it as i did if you have the patience to read it.


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## ninhito (Oct 2, 2004)

hey guys i have a question, not to be rude or anything, but what in the world does all this stuff have to do with Don.  Who in the world cares.  does it matter if he has proof.  Well does it.  Humans dont even know there own world as much as they do outside so how come your talking about proof. So, anyway Don or anybody, what techniques were lost because of time.  I used to think that kuji-kiri hypnotized your pursuers and made them all afraid and stuff but it doesn't.  Thanks Don, anyway because there is no reason for kuji-kiri than a trigger for inhuman abilities, which could be yelling like a mad man, then why the heck would you teach it.  it seems like a waste of time.  Instead of that ill just yell before competition or yell at my enemies then beat the crap out of them.  And to make up the time that i lost in kuji-kiri I'll do sho ten no jutsu or work out the kinks in my taijutsu or work on my bojutsu.


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## Kreth (Oct 4, 2004)

Wow, I think my eyes are bleeding... 

Jeff


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 4, 2004)

Will someone please put the troll out of his misery? :uhohh:


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## ninhito (Oct 4, 2004)

Whose the troll?


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## Kreth (Oct 5, 2004)

Ok, folks, let's push this topic back on, er.... topic. This thread is about Don Roley's Quest for the Holy Grail. No wait, he was looking for authentic ninjutsu traditions in Japan aside from the x-kans. Let's keep the discussion on that track. Other topics belong in their own threads.

Jeff


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## Don Roley (Oct 5, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Ok, folks, let's push this topic back on, er.... topic. This thread is about Don Roley's Quest for the Holy Grail. No wait, he was looking for authentic ninjutsu traditions in Japan aside from the x-kans.



No, this thread is about how I want to find other ninja arts in Japan. The thread drift and sniping at me was so bad that the threads were split into two. This thread is about my claims and how I have to back them up....

...Just as soon as we can figure out just what the heck I was supposed to have claimed. :idunno:

Can anyone even tell me what rank I have tried to say I am on the internet? Can anyone tell me what rank I am in the Bujinkan? I tend not to make claims about much of anything, even things like that. I figure that the less I talk about myself, the less I have to back up. And I really do not see how much more than my living in Japan and Japanese ability is relevent for a discussion about trying to find other Japanese ninjutsu traditions with links to Japan. So it is hard for me to understand how I have made some sort of claim and then failed to back it up.

If no one can figure out what claims I have made that I have to now back up, I guess that this thread serves as a forum for people to express how they dislike me and how I probably have intimate relationships with livestock. (As my mother used to say, don't knock anything you have not tried yourself.)


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## Kreth (Oct 5, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> No, this thread is about how I want to find other ninja arts in Japan. The thread drift and sniping at me was so bad that the threads were split into two. This thread is about my claims and how I have to back them up....


Oops, my bad... Guess I should have read a little more before I posted...


> Can anyone even tell me what rank I have tried to say I am on the internet? Can anyone tell me what rank I am in the Bujinkan?


I have it on good authority that you are pretty rank.  :fart:


> If no one can figure out what claims I have made that I have to now back up, I guess that this thread serves as a forum for people to express how they dislike me and how I probably have intimate relationships with livestock. (As my mother used to say, don't knock anything you have not tried yourself.)


Alternatively, perhaps it's time for this thread to be closed.

Jeff


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## Don Roley (Oct 5, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I have it on good authority that you are pretty rank.  :fart:



Et tu, Brute?


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## Kreth (Oct 5, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> E tu, Brute?


I shower once a week whether I need it or not.  :idunno: 

Jeff


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 5, 2004)

Thread closed for review


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