# You WILL get cut if someone has a knife. I disagree....



## Jared Traveler (Aug 29, 2022)

If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. The statement that you will get cut if you have to defend yourself against a knife. It is almost always spoken absolute terms. No question about it it will happen!!!

While I think it's very likely you will get cut, it is in my opinion in no way and absolute. Those types of absolutes do not exist in reality. I think most people stating this have very little idea the variety of situations someone might find themselves in when facing a knife.

Most attackers, almost all attackers that use a knife are not using a professional fighting knife. It's typically a dull kitchen knife, or a very cheap "truck stop" pocket knife. And many of them have never even thought of using a knife before that moment, when in a fit of rage, they grabbed one to attack someone. They almost certainly haven't trained to use it. In many cases they are using the knife because they are at a physical disadvantage to the person they are attacking. Often very impaired on alcohol or drugs.

Don't misunderstand me these situations are wildly dangerous, and you certainly can be killed it and badly injured by these people. I think you're expecting to be cut is certain realistic. But preaching that you will inevitably be cut, despite the fact that you have trained in weapons disarms, I don't agree with.

I understand the statement is intended to mentally prepare people for being cut to happen, and to keep fighting. But in my opinion it lowers their expectation, on what can be done. Throwing in the towel before the fight even begins. It certainly is possible, and at times very realistic to disarm somebody with a knife in a real situation without being cut. 

Just thinking is just a very little step down, from another common idea that there is no realistic defense against a knife. I understand that you're dangerous, but this is not a good way to think. You don't want to be overconfident, but you don't want to convince yourself at all situations involving knife or hopeless.

What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I understand the statement is intended to mentally prepare people for being cut to happen, and to keep fighting. But in my opinion it lowers their expectation, on what can be done. Throwing in the towel before the fight even begins. It certainly is possible, and at times very realistic to disarm somebody with a knife in a real situation without being cut.


I think you hit the nail on the head here. I've never heard anyone use that phrase and literally mean that if you get into a knife fight you will 100% no matter what get cut. It's much more just to prepare you so that if you do get cut, you do not freak out about it in the moment, and to help people learn to minimize the amount of damage potential cuts can do (ie twisting your arm when you block so you don't get your arteries sliced).


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## Holmejr (Aug 29, 2022)

I’m with MTW, I’ve only heard it in the context of possibility or even distinct possibility, but not inevitability.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?


For me the answer is. "You're going to get cut.  Just like in a fist fight You're gonna get punched.  Now with that in mind., what is the person going to do to minimize the damage?  Knife strikes are designed to hold the hand and arm in specific positions to help minimize the damage.
Fight as if you will get punched. Fight as if you will get cut.  Both are better than fighting as if no one can harm you.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 29, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> For me the answer is. "You're going to get cut.  Just like in a fist fight You're gonna get punched.  Now with that in mind., what is the person going to do to minimize the damage?  Knife strikes are designed to hold the hand and arm in specific positions to help minimize the damage.
> Fight as if you will get punched. Fight as if you will get cut.  Both are better than fighting as if no one can harm you.


Another context I hear absolutes in is when firing a gun in self-defense. "You will not use your sights in a gunfight," is a phrase I have heard so many times. This is simply not a fact. Many will not, but some can.

But when people believe this, they don't even try to use theirs sights. This is the danger in thinking in absolutes like this. It can demotivate students to even try.


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Another context I hear absolutes in is when firing a gun in self-defense. "You will not use your sights in a gunfight," is a phrase I have heard so many times. This is simply not a fact. Many will not, but some can.
> 
> But when people believe this, they don't even try to use theirs sights. This is the danger in thinking in absolutes like this. It can demotivate students to even try.



Yeah. I call this story based training. 

Self defence is chock full of this kind of thing.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 29, 2022)

In any conflict, it's probably best to just assume you're going to get hurt. And then try to avoid it. Or minimize it.


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## Buka (Aug 29, 2022)

And if BOTH people have a knife.....

Either he gets cut and you don't.
Or you get cut and he doesn't.
Or you both get cut.
Or neither of you get cut and were just showing your knives to each other because you're a couple of dick heads.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. The statement that you will get cut if you have to defend yourself against a knife. It is almost always spoken absolute terms. No question about it it will happen!!!


I have heard it this way many times, not always. 



Jared Traveler said:


> While I think it's very likely you will get cut, it is in my opinion in no way and absolute. Those types of absolutes do not exist in reality. I think most people stating this have very little idea the variety of situations someone might find themselves in when facing a knife.


I agree Absolutes usually are not something that one can count on in dealing with violence and human beings. 
Other than chaos or change is the only constant I truly know. 



Jared Traveler said:


> Most attackers, almost all attackers that use a knife are not using a professional fighting knife. It's typically a dull kitchen knife, or a very cheap "truck stop" pocket knife. And many of them have never even thought of using a knife before that moment, when in a fit of rage, they grabbed one to attack someone. They almost certainly haven't trained to use it. In many cases they are using the knife because they are at a physical disadvantage to the person they are attacking. Often very impaired on alcohol or drugs.



I am not sure about your statements. 
Some study the shanking videos out there. And they practice. 
Random drunk college kid home from school, or domestic (either way) they might not have any training or experience. 

As to physical disadvantage, not always the case, from what I saw when I was in the game a few decades ago. 
And other than drunk college guy, most were not drunk or on drugs or at least not recognizable. 

Mileage will vary I guess as it has between us. 




Jared Traveler said:


> Don't misunderstand me these situations are wildly dangerous, and you certainly can be killed it and badly injured by these people. I think you're expecting to be cut is certain realistic. But preaching that you will inevitably be cut, despite the fact that you have trained in weapons disarms, I don't agree with.



If taken from the mindset there is always someone stronger/ faster / younger / bigger / smaller / better / ... then it is being used in the mindset that in a confrontation one will be hit. Maybe not a horrible knock out nor even a damaging blow, yet getting hit. 
Yet, the multiplier for the knife requires little strength and little contact to break the skin. 



Jared Traveler said:


> I understand the statement is intended to mentally prepare people for being cut to happen, and to keep fighting. But in my opinion it lowers their expectation, on what can be done. Throwing in the towel before the fight even begins. It certainly is possible, and at times very realistic to disarm somebody with a knife in a real situation without being cut.



So every Boxer that says when you step in the ring you will get hit is also wrong? 
I agree with the absolute issue. 
I agree it can affect some , yet if it truly is such an issue, then I wonder if any competition combat needs to say don't worry you might not get hit. 



Jared Traveler said:


> Just thinking is just a very little step down, from another common idea that there is no realistic defense against a knife. I understand that you're dangerous, but this is not a good way to think. You don't want to be overconfident, but you don't want to convince yourself at all situations involving knife or hopeless.



There are basics that can be done against the untrained and the partial trained. 
There are training methods that allow for more advanced assaults to be addressed, with minimum to nil loss. 
There are also little to no way to stop the sewing machine assassination. Wait, yes, it can be addressed if seen or squared off or prepared. 
But, Rich what about the sucker punch, you can't stop against that either?
And it is hard to stop the random assault, unless one is on point / aware most of the time, or more often in higher threat areas / regions.  



Jared Traveler said:


> What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?



A couple of questions and then my thoughts an summary. 

Do you train foam, rubber (flex), rubber (stiff), wood, metal or real dulled edge, or real (Scotch) tapped edge or under real control situations an actual real blade? 

Many people will not even handle the real blade and attack you. Yet, if worked up to it they can process the thought. Even if it is dull, (risk of thrust) , or tapped (risk of thrust / paper cut type of cuts ) 

First, I agree with most of what you say , and I think you have fallen into the most / almost always issue as well, knowing what you mean, not how it reads. Not a bad thing, not a real issue, only pointing it out as you asked for  opinions. 

Next I tell people they will get hit. empty hand and with a knife. Pay attention. 

For me getting to such a position can be a failure of multiple levels. Awareness, location, associates, other. 

Note: I have never been in an actual knife fight. If they had a knife and I could get a knife, screw driver , or other improvised tool, it never came to confrontation as they no longer had the advantage. (See above about how I do not think it is for disadvantage, it is more to get an advantage in my experience and opinion. ) 

I have been up and down and rolling and being kicked and hit and returning what I can against multiple opponents and even gone through a plate glass window with an over sized for most, yet proper size for me, balisong in the back jeans pocket. As when I was up and could obtain the threat was not there to justify. When the treat was there including one them having a knife, I was too busy reacting and dealing with issues then trying to even the threat. 

Yes, there is a lot of basics for stepping offline and cam-ing the thrusting hand offline, or passing / parrying. It takes time and exposure to get comfortable and to also learn timing and adjusting. Not Speed, timing. 

One needs to understand control of the opponent and limiting their responses. Also counter strikes that have high response from the opponent. 

So on to my Rules for everything. 

Rule 1) Avoidance 
Rule 2) See Rule #1

It is simple and many will scoff it off. 
Avoid the break down in the bad part of town, drive around. 
Low on gas, treat half a tank of gas as empty and then always able to have the fuel to go around. 

Pay attention to the area, and take precautions. 
Park under lights and easy access from entrance exit of buildings. 

Avoid hanging with that one guy that is always loud and wants to test themselves, knowing they have "Friends" to cash the checks the write. And it you still go out explain to them that you will not come to their aid of the do get into trouble. And make sure everyone hears. it. One would be surprise how many more also are tired of the shenanigans. 

And if actions happens, let the opponents know that he is on his own, as long as they keep it one on one and stop when he can't move any more. 
The opponents hear this, and they begin to think if you would do this with people you are out with what would you do to them. 
It also re-enforces everyone around you that they are on their own. And you tell the others to stay out as you will not help them for helping the jerk. 

Many many more instances. 

The common theme is avoiding something. Including getting into the confrontation or going to locations that are more likely to have them. It avoids engaging, until you no longer can avoid it. When types like yourself (OP) show up and start asking questions, and you explain you left and they followed, and you tried telling them you were gone, and they still choose to engage. It is the truth. 


That being said, still train hard, and be prepared for whatever level threat level ones to be. 
Empty hand, blunt / impact , edged (short / long ) , flexible , multiple opponents, ... competition only . 

As Clint once said in a movie, A man must know is limitations. This is true, and also their happiness. If training something doesn't make someone happy or feel better than before they are very likely to not continue. 
So no discouragement meant to anyone at all here. 

Please go train in the art / style you want and to the level you feel comfortable. 

Peace


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> In any conflict, it's probably best to just assume you're going to get hurt. And then try to avoid it. Or minimize it.


I agree with this.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 29, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Most attackers, almost all attackers that use a knife are not using a professional fighting knife. It's typically a dull kitchen knife, or a very cheap "truck stop" pocket knife. And many of them have never even thought of using a knife before that moment, when in a fit of rage, they grabbed one to attack someone. They almost certainly haven't trained to use it.


I think you may be underestimating the potential for lethal attackers.   You may be right regarding domestic situations.   On the street I will probably be more apt to face a knife attacker that has plans for his knife (professional or dull) and is mentally prepared to use it, than some random guy flying into a rage at me.  (I'm not the kind of guy people get really pissed off at.)  So, I'm taking the position that the knife wielder has premeditated intent, and at least some will and skill to put it into action.  


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It's much more just to prepare you so that if you do get cut, you do not freak out about it in the moment, and to help people learn to minimize the amount of damage potential cuts can do


"Prepare for the worse, hope for the best."  There is much less margin of error with a knife.  A deflected or off target punch poses little danger, not so much with a knife.  And one may be able to take a punch in order to give one, not so much with a knife.  Having a strong respect for a knife attacker and assuming the strong chance of getting cut is by no means, "throwing in the towel." IMO.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 29, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I think you may be underestimating the potential for lethal attackers.   You may be right regarding domestic situations.   On the street I will probably be more apt to face a knife attacker that has plans for his knife (professional or dull) and is mentally prepared to use it, than some random guy flying into a rage at me.  (I'm not the kind of guy people get really pissed off at.)  So, I'm taking the position that the knife wielder has premeditated intent, and at least some will and skill to put it into action.
> 
> "Prepare for the worse, hope for the best."  There is much less margin of error with a knife.  A deflected or off target punch poses little danger, not so much with a knife.  And one may be able to take a punch in order to give one, not so much with a knife.  Having a strong respect for a knife attacker and assuming the strong chance of getting cut is by no means, "throwing in the towel." IMO.


Isshinryuronin you bring up a great point, regarding statistics. To me statistics primarily tell me about other people. It's an opportunity to reflect on if this applies to me or not. Based on your lifestyle, you may very well be unlikely to experience a knife attack like someone else might experience it. I totally understand and agree with this logic.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 30, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?


I'm not good at it and I'm likely to get cut.  I had a single seminar with a member of MT and I was more than humbled.  My skills, such as they are, are not equipped to deal with a real knife fighter.  They move differently than I expect and it opens me up to all kinds of attacks.

Therefore, my choices are to try to get good at knife defense, or try to avoid knives.  I choose the latter.  I don't carry one; I'm not good enough to avoid having it taken from me and used against me.  I don't want to die on my own blade; how embarrassing would that be.

I'll stick to punching and kicking.  I'm fairly good at that.  Not great, but I get by.  And I like hitting people.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 30, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not good at it and I'm likely to get cut.  I had a single seminar with a member of MT and I was more than humbled.  My skills, such as they are, are not equipped to deal with a real knife fighter.  They move differently than I expect and it opens me up to all kinds of attacks.
> 
> Therefore, my choices are to try to get good at knife defense, or try to avoid knives.  I choose the latter.  I don't carry one; I'm not good enough to avoid having it taken from me and used against me.  I don't want to die on my own blade; how embarrassing would that be.
> 
> I'll stick to punching and kicking.  I'm fairly good at that.  Not great, but I get by.  And I like hitting people.



Bill,

If you want to get together and work on some basics I have that can improve the odds (Some) we can set up a day and time.
At the club you use, your back yard, the club I use, or somewhere in between.  

Just to friends getting together to work out a little.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 31, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Bill,
> 
> If you want to get together and work on some basics I have that can improve the odds (Some) we can set up a day and time.
> At the club you use, your back yard, the club I use, or somewhere in between.
> ...


LOL, I sincerely appreciate that!  I miss our little chats at work.  At the moment, my life is segmented into very small chunks; I have to get through my upcoming heart surgery before making any plans.

But my thoughts on knife defense are that a 'little' training is more dangerous than none; it builds confidence one should not have.  If one's not going to commit to serious and ongoing training, as you and our mutual friends with blades have, it's not something to play with.


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## Jared Traveler (Aug 31, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> LOL, I sincerely appreciate that!  I miss our little chats at work.  At the moment, my life is segmented into very small chunks; I have to get through my upcoming heart surgery before making any plans.
> 
> But my thoughts on knife defense are that a 'little' training is more dangerous than none; it builds confidence one should not have.  If one's not going to commit to serious and ongoing training, as you and our mutual friends with blades have, it's not something to play with.


I certainly agree that false confidence is a real danger. However it is my belief that for most people, defending against a knife is a situation that chooses them, not something you choose. And in those situations you will have to defend yourself regardless if you have no training, some training or a lot of training.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> LOL, I sincerely appreciate that!  I miss our little chats at work.  At the moment, my life is segmented into very small chunks; I have to get through my upcoming heart surgery before making any plans.
> 
> But my thoughts on knife defense are that a 'little' training is more dangerous than none; it builds confidence one should not have.  If one's not going to commit to serious and ongoing training, as you and our mutual friends with blades have, it's not something to play with.



The training is not based around making one a knife fighter. 
They are some basic gross motor movements designed for someone who doesn't train in any art. 
And is usually ignored as it is simple and boring to practice. 

It is not meant to make you great or unstoppable. 
It is designed to help you create and maintain space with your pocket knife/ box cutter / kitchen knife. 

As you ( and mot others know ) there is no one thing that is absolute. And not trying to say it will provide confidence to want to engage. 
Only some insight if forced to engage. 

Yet, medical and health are important. 
If your mind changes. let me know.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I certainly agree that false confidence is a real danger. However it is my belief that for most people, defending against a knife is a situation that chooses them, not something you choose. And in those situations you will have to defend yourself regardless if you have no training, some training or a lot of training.



I agree that false confidence is bad. 
I also was not trying to provide the simple course and cert and claim people are "safe". 
I have turned down so many who just wanted that to feel safe. I could not do it. Not only unethical, it was dangerous. 

This was my offer to Bill. 
I probably should have made in privately. 

My apologies for thread drift.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not good at it and I'm likely to get cut.  I had a single seminar with a member of MT and I was more than humbled.  My skills, such as they are, are not equipped to deal with a real knife fighter.  They move differently than I expect and it opens me up to all kinds of attacks.
> 
> Therefore, my choices are to try to get good at knife defense, or try to avoid knives.  I choose the latter.  I don't carry one; I'm not good enough to avoid having it taken from me and used against me.  I don't want to die on my own blade; how embarrassing would that be.
> 
> I'll stick to punching and kicking.  I'm fairly good at that.  Not great, but I get by.  And I like hitting people.



I don't think punching and kicking is an unreasonable knife defence to be honest.

Given almost nothing works. And there is a small chance you can punch or kick and finish before they get started it really is as good as any other method.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 31, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have to get through my upcoming heart surgery


Best wishes for a good result.


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## Buka (Sep 1, 2022)

IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.

If a dojo teaches disarms against a firearm, they first have to have the students in question become trained in the use of firearms.

It doesn't make any sense to me to do it any other way other than making the students think they're learning something when they aren't.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

Buka said:


> IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.
> 
> If a dojo teaches disarms against a firearm, they first have to have the students in question become trained in the use of firearms.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense to me to do it any other way other than making the students think they're learning something when they aren't.



You don't think there are transferable concepts? 

I did a lot of weapon defence by denying access to that weapon. Which doesn't take a lot of weapon fighting skill.


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## Buka (Sep 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You don't think there are transferable concepts?
> 
> I did a lot of weapon defence by denying access to that weapon. Which doesn't take a lot of weapon fighting skill.


I don't fully understand what you mean by transferable concepts. (I'm sometimes slow on the uptake)

Denying access to the weapon is the best way to go. It's when the weapon is already in hand when you realize "uh oh" that it starts to get tricky. And dangerous.

I had a friendly relationship with a guy who ran a dojo not too far from ours. I knew he taught gun disarms to his high ranking guys. We were having the firearms instructor from Boston PD coming down to teach a three night safety class, which would be followed the next week by everyone going to an outdoor range to shoot twenty five different weapons over a two day period. Everything from target shooting to fast drawing to firing and shooting on the run.

I invited the guy, told him to bring his high ranking guys and I'd pay for them all, no charge for them. Same thing for the range - have them take the safety course, then come to the range for two nights.

He declines, saying (I paraphrase) "Oh, I don't want them to actually touch a firearm. I just want to teach them what my instructor taught me."

I still do a face palm when I think about it. Teach weapons disarming but don't let them actually touch a weapon or know the first thing about one. Yeah, that's a real nifty idea.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 1, 2022)

Buka said:


> IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.


Why?  Please elaborate.


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2022)

Buka said:


> I don't fully understand what you mean by transferable concepts. (I'm sometimes slow on the uptake)
> 
> Denying access to the weapon is the best way to go. It's when the weapon is already in hand when you realize "uh oh" that it starts to get tricky. And dangerous.
> 
> ...



If you can deny them access to that gun. They can't shoot it.

This is not a problem solved by good gun knowledge. It is a problem solved by good grappling. 

Putting gun disarms in the hands of gun people is kind of putting the expertise in the wrong place. 

Should this be a binary option.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 2, 2022)

> Buka said:
> IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.
> 
> If a dojo teaches disarms against a firearm, they first have to have the students in question become trained in the use of firearms.
> ...





drop bear said:


> You don't think there are transferable concepts?
> 
> I did a lot of weapon defence by denying access to that weapon. Which doesn't take a lot of weapon fighting skill.




I have actually found it counter productive to teach knife fighting before some basic self defense. 
If you come at them with the maximum timing and technique they walk away frustrated and or discouraged. 

And to avoid false confidence even while learning the basics, one can do a slightly advanced technique or timing to let them know they have work to do before they should actually think or attempt it.


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Why?  Please elaborate.


Sure, let me write something up and I'll be back. (apologies to The Terminator)


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Why?  Please elaborate.


I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldn’t wait to get to that part of my training.

The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.

The fact that our partner, the attacker, stayed frozen in place so we could master the technique, wasn’t noticed by us. The attacker was ours, we owned him and his futile attack, we were, after all, Karate men. And our teacher ran a Karate school. You can’t very well run a Karate school without being the know all and end all of all things self defense. Including against the dreaded knife attack.

The next one we did was against the overhead, downward stab. We stepped in with our classic rising block. It was part of our basic eight point blocking system. We blocked that forearm, the one propelling that knife down. Our other arm immediately came up and entwined that attacking arm. Put it into an elbow lock and took down the attacker, who we then controlled. It wasn’t too difficult, he again stayed frozen in place since that downward stab was initially blocked.

If I may switch away for a second…..when I was in training as a rookie cop there were several films we had to watch. One was called “Edged Weapons.” It was actual footage of both knife attacks and a few people with mental health problems brutalizing themselves with edged weapons. The video quality was good for that era, and it was of the most unsettling things I have ever seen to this day. The video has long since been removed from any police training that I know of. It wasn’t for learning about how to defend against edged weapons, but rather to show us how dangerous they were.

Getting back to my original thoughts - I trained harder than anyone else in my dojo. I never missed a class, not one, for many years. I always came early and stayed late, it’s what I wanted to do and knew it was going to be doing it for a long time. I would practice those knife defenses even if there wasn’t anybody else there yet. I’d just do it against an imaginary attacker carrying the imaginary knife and do it against the air. I gotta tell ya, I was one hell of an imaginary Karate man.

That first instructor of mine had zero experience in anything having to do with actual fighting. But he told us differently. And we believed him. 

If I had been fortunate enough to train, or even watch, real deal knife training I would have immediately known what we were being taught, and practicing, was the equivalent of what I call dojo suicide via instructor.

The first time I saw and experienced proper knife training, it took all of two minutes for me to shake my head and mutter to myself, "good Holy God what manner of B.S have we been doing?”

There are a lot of variables with knife defense. But they’re all fairly basic…..once you see the knife, that is. Not seeing it is another matter entirely. But if the enemy has a knife it’s either in his right hand or left hand. That hand might be his front hand at the time or his back hand. But even still there’s only so many angles the knife can come from, and only so many lines it can travel on it’s way to you. And that’s regardless of what grip the attacker is employing.

I have no idea how to disarm a man with a knife if I don’t have one as well. Sure, I can go through the motions, and maybe some times I’ll get lucky in training, but most times not. It’s one of the reasons I always have an easily accessible knife, been carrying one for a long time, on duty or off, regardless of what clothes I’m wearing or even if I’m in the water at the beach, the knife is always there.

Once you do some good knife training it’s a lot simpler than you would think. The angles become easy to read, regardless of any other factor. Your footwork is easier than say the footwork in boxing, a lot easier. 

But the thing you’ll start to realize very quickly is - countering with your own edged weapon, especially against their knife hand, becomes a walk in the park. Honest.

If you’re training self defense moves against the knife when you don’t have one, you’ll still have to experience the angles used by people wielding a knife. Be them the classic prison sewing needle attack, or wide sweeping slashes. Be them by a trained knife fighter or a crazy street thug.

Firearms - if an instructor is teaching any kind of handgun disarming without first having students learn all about firearms and actually shooting different kinds of firearms under qualified shooting instructors (NOT just target shooting)
It’s, at least to me, the equivalent of teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle by training them on a stationary bicycle and assuming they’ll be okay if they ever have to drive a motorcycle in an emergency. Probably not a good idea.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 2, 2022)

Buka said:


> Sure, let me write something up and I'll be back. (apologies to The Terminator)


The terminator as in the ".' or the quote "I'll be bach" ? 
I am looking forward to reading your reply. Perspectives of others can provide insights.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 2, 2022)

Hi Buka,

I like your post. Thank you for taking the time.  I appreciate it. 
I agree with some of your points, and I would like to say some of the "bad" training could have been saved or beneficial if done differently. 




Buka said:


> I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldn’t wait to get to that part of my training.


 It was cool I remember as well. I saw them in the mall years before I was able to train. 



Buka said:


> The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.


Yes, I have seen this as well (And it can be cool learning). And I acknowledge this is not best or bad for many if not all. 
The Hard X gives too much resistance and feedback to the opponent. 

I teach something very similar and it is for footwork and hand position . 

if they stab the abdomen with the right hand, and you step left about 45 degree offline, and have your right hand come down and camber their thrust off line, you have only exposed your outside of one arm. This leaves the left available for counter attacks or for the awesome disarm as you stated. 
After it is cam'd offline the left then falls on top and then the wrist lock to throw can happen with two hands. 
They step back out. This creates space as well. 
The point for that drill is not the Disarm (for me and my students) , The point is the step and deflect offline. Create some space. 

Similar idea if one steps left with the same right arm stab. Different locks and also puts you closer to their off hand those possible strikes. 



Buka said:


> The fact that our partner, the attacker, stayed frozen in place so we could master the technique, wasn’t noticed by us. The attacker was ours, we owned him and his futile attack, we were, after all, Karate men. And our teacher ran a Karate school. You can’t very well run a Karate school without being the know all and end all of all things self defense. Including against the dreaded knife attack.


I hear what you are explaining here. 



Buka said:


> The next one we did was against the overhead, downward stab. We stepped in with our classic rising block. It was part of our basic eight point blocking system. We blocked that forearm, the one propelling that knife down. Our other arm immediately came up and entwined that attacking arm. Put it into an elbow lock and took down the attacker, who we then controlled. It wasn’t too difficult, he again stayed frozen in place since that downward stab was initially blocked.



This one I call the OMG Block he is stabbing / striking down at me. 
Left hand comes up as you step right foot forward or left foot backward to help create the cross body frame. 
Once contact is made then parry it down and step back with the right leg. 
If the Ice pick grip then the blade can drag across the back of your arm. And then sometimes if done right be disarmed. 
Still not trying to say the point is the disarm. 
Step and block then step back and create space. If in position to follow up do so. 

Similar tactics for the rest of the obvious strikes. 
It is about the distancing and passing / flowing and not being rigid and stationary. 



Buka said:


> If I may switch away for a second…..when I was in training as a rookie cop there were several films we had to watch. One was called “Edged Weapons.” It was actual footage of both knife attacks and a few people with mental health problems brutalizing themselves with edged weapons. The video quality was good for that era, and it was of the most unsettling things I have ever seen to this day. The video has long since been removed from any police training that I know of. It wasn’t for learning about how to defend against edged weapons, but rather to show us how dangerous they were.


If it was this film I have seen a similar film. Yes, if not ready for it it can be an issue for some. 



Buka said:


> Getting back to my original thoughts - I trained harder than anyone else in my dojo. I never missed a class, not one, for many years. I always came early and stayed late, it’s what I wanted to do and knew it was going to be doing it for a long time. I would practice those knife defenses even if there wasn’t anybody else there yet. I’d just do it against an imaginary attacker carrying the imaginary knife and do it against the air. I gotta tell ya, I was one hell of an imaginary Karate man.



And I think highly of you for your dedication to your training. It might not have been what you wanted in the end, yet, I respect the mindset you had going in. To train and to train hard. 



Buka said:


> That first instructor of mine had zero experience in anything having to do with actual fighting. But he told us differently. And we believed him.



Experience is good and it taught by someone with experience and they they teach it without any real experience it can be learned, yet I agree it is very theoretical . 
This type of training needs to be refreshed at least ever other generation of student if not each. 




Buka said:


> If I had been fortunate enough to train, or even watch, real deal knife training I would have immediately known what we were being taught, and practicing, was the equivalent of what I call dojo suicide via instructor.



I had seen some, by untrained people. 
I was also lucky when I started that the instructor would play / test after we learned the single or basic and then see if they moved as you moved what would happen. This helped a lot. 




Buka said:


> The first time I saw and experienced proper knife training, it took all of two minutes for me to shake my head and mutter to myself, "good Holy God what manner of B.S have we been doing?”


You recognized it and dealt with it. I respect that. 



Buka said:


> There are a lot of variables with knife defense. But they’re all fairly basic…..once you see the knife, that is. Not seeing it is another matter entirely. But if the enemy has a knife it’s either in his right hand or left hand. That hand might be his front hand at the time or his back hand. But even still there’s only so many angles the knife can come from, and only so many lines it can travel on it’s way to you. And that’s regardless of what grip the attacker is employing.


Yes, the assassination (unseen knife) is really hard to stop. 
Yes there are so many lines. 
And this is why I want some basics for defense for movement and space. and pivot/ parry / pass no hard stationary blocking. 
I also have seen when some others taught it early it look liked they just painted with the blade. While the edge dragging can cut, it is not as effective. 
On the side the beginners are learning some stick patterns and striking styles. 
These styles also apply to edge. 
This stops the total beginners walking in and just learning how to go kill people and leave. 
I can get a feel for them and learn and trust them. 

Later I show them the bladed connection and they make lots of progress, very similar in technique you list below. 



Buka said:


> I have no idea how to disarm a man with a knife if I don’t have one as well. Sure, I can go through the motions, and maybe some times I’ll get lucky in training, but most times not. It’s one of the reasons I always have an easily accessible knife, been carrying one for a long time, on duty or off, regardless of what clothes I’m wearing or even if I’m in the water at the beach, the knife is always there.


I like your preparedness. 



Buka said:


> Once you do some good knife training it’s a lot simpler than you would think. The angles become easy to read, regardless of any other factor. Your footwork is easier than say the footwork in boxing, a lot easier.



This is where those striking styles come in and now the student is not just painting with the flat of the blade they are using the edge and point.
They are should be using the basics discussed above about stepping and creating space. 
The use of the hand without the weapon to parry , which could be a cross body parry. A lot more difficult than an outside one, especially for beginners. 
So here is where we align and I agree  
While Above I think it was just your experience and I respect that it was different. 



Buka said:


> But the thing you’ll start to realize very quickly is - countering with your own edged weapon, especially against their knife hand, becomes a walk in the park. Honest.


Yes it does. 


Buka said:


> If you’re training self defense moves against the knife when you don’t have one, you’ll still have to experience the angles used by people wielding a knife. Be them the classic prison sewing needle attack, or wide sweeping slashes. Be them by a trained knife fighter or a crazy street thug.


Yes Sir. 



Buka said:


> Firearms - if an instructor is teaching any kind of handgun disarming without first having students learn all about firearms and actually shooting different kinds of firearms under qualified shooting instructors (NOT just target shooting)
> It’s, at least to me, the equivalent of teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle by training them on a stationary bicycle and assuming they’ll be okay if they ever have to drive a motorcycle in an emergency. Probably not a good idea.



So with knives I believe the average person has held a knife , at least a steak knife once in their life and understand the point is sharp and the edge cuts and they have that exposure from normal culture. 

Firearms, are not part of the normal everyday every sit down  restaurant. 
So I agree and would hope that some exposure and training with a firearm would occur before training. 

And as I have stated elsewhere. Use a cheap water gun with multiple shirts. People argue the paint (exploded in air) or bb bounced off and not sure if a real hit or not. 
Wet is wet. 

Get good with the slow reaction of water and then move to other more expensive devices to continue the training. 
***

Once again thank you for sharing, which gave me a chance to reply as well.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 2, 2022)

Buka said:


> I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldn’t wait to get to that part of my training.
> 
> The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.
> 
> ...


Two points I want to make.

1) the knife defenses you very briefly describe that you were taught by your karate instructor, I could visualize even with that very minimal description.

2) Your post contains the second reference that you have made recently, to being at the beach.  This one even claims you were in the water.  I know you don’t go to the beach.  So I begin to wonder if I can trust the rest of what you say here.  😂


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Two points I want to make.
> 
> 1) the knife defenses you very briefly describe that you were taught by your karate instructor, I could visualize even with that very minimal description.
> 
> 2) Your post contains the second reference that you have made recently, to being at the beach.  This one even claims you were in the water.  I know you don’t go to the beach.  So I begin to wonder if I can trust the rest of what you say here.  😂


Lol. The beach days were on the East coast. Too damn hot to go to the beach here. I don't actually know anyone that lives here that goes to the beach, except at night. (which is frightening to me)


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## Flying Crane (Sep 3, 2022)

Buka said:


> Lol. The beach days were on the East coast. Too damn hot to go to the beach here. I don't actually know anyone that lives here that goes to the beach, except at night. (which is frightening to me)


The last time we were there we spent most of our time at the beach.  My son was finally old enough to just play in the surf and he got rolled over and over doing some body surfing.  He absolutely loved it.  We spent hours each day playing in the water.


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## drop bear (Sep 3, 2022)

Buka said:


> I remember the first time I saw a Martial knife defense demonstrated, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. I couldn’t wait to get to that part of my training.
> 
> The first knife defense my (then) Instructor showed our class was against a low stab to the abdomen. We expertly X blocked it with both our crossed wrists. Which then allowed us to turn those crossed wrists into a nifty repositioned wrist lock and place our attacker into a chicken wing, or with a circular step, to put him on the ground. Oh, man, it was just so cool.
> 
> ...



I took a bow and arrow off a guy a while back. I have no real idea how to shoot one.


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## Buka (Sep 3, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I took a bow and arrow off a guy a while back. I have no real idea how to shoot one.


I know just how you feel, I took a three wood off a guy and I don't know how to play golf. My buddy took a five iron off the guy's friend and my buddy doesn't play golf either.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 14, 2022)

Seems like it's almost impossible to fight someone without getting any cuts. As long as there is a contact, there will be some sort of cutting. Maybe if you are very good and the guy doesn't know how to use a knife, you might get really small cut. But not being cut at all is very hard to believe.

Sure, in movie, you can have that, but in real life, things get messy. It's like fighting bare knuckles, no matter how good you are, you likely going to be touched, for bare knuckles, touch is nothing, but with a knife, a touch is a cut. I think if someone claim they won't get cut fighting someone with a knife, they likely over estimate themselves or under estimate everyone else. For one, I really don't like to listen to someone that talk as if the opponent doesn't know a thing. I always assume more from the opponent.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 14, 2022)

Buka said:


> IMO, if a dojo teaches defense against a knife, they first have to teach how to fight with a knife.
> 
> If a dojo teaches disarms against a firearm, they first have to have the students in question become trained in the use of firearms.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense to me to do it any other way other than making the students think they're learning something when they aren't.


I pretty much agree with this. What I could never figure out was how I'd manage to get basic firearm training for folks, except to require they take a firearms class (something like a CCW class). I never got anyone that far, so it was never an issue. How did you handle it?


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## Buka (Sep 14, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I pretty much agree with this. What I could never figure out was how I'd manage to get basic firearm training for folks, except to require they take a firearms class (something like a CCW class). I never got anyone that far, so it was never an issue. How did you handle it?


I'll see if I can find the post I made concerning this, Gerry. But it really doesn't apply to anyone else. As I've said before, opportunities in Martial Arts were handed to me on a silver platter, constantly. None of which I deserved, but all of which I took advantage of.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Seems like it's almost impossible to fight someone without getting any cuts. As long as there is a contact, there will be some sort of cutting. Maybe if you are very good and the guy doesn't know how to use a knife, you might get really small cut. But not being cut at all is very hard to believe.


Idle speculation with no basis in any actual data.
I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. I was injured once. I was completely uninjured the other two times. 
That's a sample size of one, so it proves nothing. But at least it's something other than pure speculation.


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## drop bear (Sep 15, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I pretty much agree with this. What I could never figure out was how I'd manage to get basic firearm training for folks, except to require they take a firearms class (something like a CCW class). I never got anyone that far, so it was never an issue. How did you handle it?



I pretty much wrist lock throw/strip everything. Or kotageshi everything So it doesn't matter if I have any sort of intimate knowledge of what I am grabbing.

I disarmed a guys packet of cigarettes once thinking he was going for a knife.

Mabye not kotageshi. Whatever the one is where you go under the arm.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 15, 2022)

Maybe watch this chaps


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 15, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I pretty much wrist lock throw/strip everything. Or kotageshi everything So it doesn't matter if I have any sort of intimate knowledge of what I am grabbing.
> 
> I disarmed a guys packet of cigarettes once thinking he was going for a knife.
> 
> Mabye not kotageshi. Whatever the one is where you go under the arm.


My thought on basic firearm training is mostly so they don't get one in their hands and accidentally fire it. Mind you, it's a pretty unlikely circumstance, but has a big enough downside and obvious mitigation.

I'm having trouble picturing the lock you're talking about. When you say "under the arm", are you stepping under with a pivot to make a twisting lock?


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## drop bear (Sep 15, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> My thought on basic firearm training is mostly so they don't get one in their hands and accidentally fire it. Mind you, it's a pretty unlikely circumstance, but has a big enough downside and obvious mitigation.
> 
> I'm having trouble picturing the lock you're talking about. When you say "under the arm", are you stepping under with a pivot to make a twisting lock?



Yeah. Because the elbow flares and gives you that gap.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Because the elbow flares and gives you that gap.


That brings it to two I can think of off the top of my head. I'll try to find a video with both - curious about your live experience with one or both.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That brings it to two I can think of off the top of my head. I'll try to find a video with both - curious about your live experience with one or both.


Here's one. I don't agree with some of what this guy's doing, but the example at 1:21 (should be cued there) shows the basic movement well enough:






I can't find a video of the other. Most arts would consider it a variation of kote gaeshi - it's basically the same, except done from the outside of the hand (you're grabbing the hand with the fingers aimed at you, rather than back at them) with a pulling motion to activate the twist at the end, and can be reached by stepping under the arm (which helps extend the shoulder). I don't know if that description helps at all. If I find a video of this version, I'll post it.

Of course, if you can find a video of the version you're talking about, I'd love to see it.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 16, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Here's one. I don't agree with some of what this guy's doing, but the example at 1:21 (should be cued there) shows the basic movement well enough:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do the hand transfer without the step through just a slight 45 step in the direction he moves. 
Bring their hand into your chest. It avoids exposing the back / neck that many have issues with for this type of technique.


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## Holmejr (Sep 16, 2022)

My instructor does not allow videos. But man, some of those posted videos are are dangerous. If you don’t stop momentum, control the weapon and beat the crap out of the assailant you’re opening yourself up for disappointment. The assailant(s) also have other weapons that you still have to isolate or nullify (hands/feet,etc). We do some hard knife speed training, sometimes with baby oil to simulate sweat and it’s radical even with a aluminum practice blade.

With that said many if not most FMA videos just show a small segment of the total technique or encounter. They’re a paranoid bunch LOL!

Eskrido de Alcuizar
World Eskrido Federation
Buena Park, CA


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Do the hand transfer without the step through just a slight 45 step in the direction he moves.
> Bring their hand into your chest. It avoids exposing the back / neck that many have issues with for this type of technique.


We practice that version, as well. With the step-under, you should have control of the arm before stepping, which would lock the shoulder. If the shoulder's locked, there's not much they can do with your back. If you don't feel that control, the step shouldn't happen.


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## skribs (Sep 19, 2022)

I think a lot of these things are blanket statements that are helpful to some, harmful to others, and most free-thinking people will be relatively unaffected.  Let's take for example: "If you try to disarm someone, 100% chance you get shot."

Some people talk on the internet or at the bar like they're a Jet Li character brought to life, just because they learned a gun defense last Thursday and were able to disarm a compliant partner.  These people probably don't have full confidence in their ability (and are just boasting), or at the very least aren't planning on going to the bad side of town and picking fights with gangsters.  However, they might need a bit of a reality check.

Some people might hear this and believe it.  And then in a situation where someone is going to kill them, they don't fight back, because they've been conditioned that it's going to fail no matter what.  Alternatively, you have people who believe it's impossible to train for, but also they'll be able to do it (without any training).  Oh, and they'll be better because any training in gun defense is bad, so they're better off without it.  

I think most people are going to recognize that gun defense is a low percentage situation, but sometimes low percentage is all you have.  Avoid and de-escalate if possible.  (Have your own weapon if possible).  And if you feel it will lead to the safest outcome, then comply.  But if you think the other person is going to shoot you even after you comply, then you should go for a disarm, and that disarm will be better if you have some training in the techniques and concepts that make it work.

The idea that statements need to be targeted is based on another pair of statements I would make a lot in class as an instructor: "Relax, it's okay to make mistakes," and "You need to take this more seriously, because you're making a lot of mistakes."

There were a few students that were incredibly hard on themselves if they made a mistake.  One girl in particular sticks in my mind.  If she messed up in class, she would get frustrated.  Then she was paying more attention to the previous mistake than on what she was doing, and it would just be a downward spiral.  She needed to chill out a bit.  One thing that I enjoyed about teaching her is that she would come back the next class and have it fixed.  I knew she practiced and worked hard.  But she had a real problem getting out of her own head sometimes.

Many kids had the other problem - they're just there to hang out, and they don't put much effort in.  They're not trying to improve.  They've been working on a form for months and still don't even have the moves memorized.  They'd rather chitchat than do repetitions.  

The girl in the first group needed to be told to relax.  If I tell the class to take things more serious, she might hear that and think, "I thought I was taking it serious.  I need to be *more *serious?"  If that's her takeaway, she may get even more high strung.  On the other hand, if I tell the class it's okay to make mistakes, then those who are already carefree may take it as a license to mess around, because it's okay to make mistakes, right?

One of my challenges was trying to make sure that both messages got to the right kids.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 19, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Idle speculation with no basis in any actual data.
> I've had a knife pulled on me with intent three times. I was injured once. I was completely uninjured the other two times.
> That's a sample size of one, so it proves nothing. But at least it's something other than pure speculation.


You "Supposed" to be a master, right? You still got injured one out of 3 times. You sure you did not got slight cut the other two times. Saying one won't get even a slight cut is not believable.

*If OP said no serious cut*, maybe it's more believable, but not even a small cut? I cannot even say I won't cut myself shaving for sure.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 19, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You "Supposed" to be a master, right? You still got injured one out of 3 times. You sure you did not got slight cut the other two times. Saying one won't get even a slight cut is not believable.
> 
> *If OP said no serious cut*, maybe it's more believable, but not even a small cut? I cannot even say I won't cut myself shaving for sure.


“For sure” is a pretty high bar. I can’t say for sure I won’t trip walking down the stairs to my basement. But it doesn’t happen every time.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 19, 2022)

What if your opponent has one of these.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What if your opponent has one of these.
> 
> View attachment 28915


Are the few of the pictures you posted supposedly Japanese? I could swear they are all Chinese as I recognize the characters. I just forgot most of them after being here for 49 years and never use Chinese.............More that I was very bad in Chinese even when I was in Hong Kong!!! Believe it or not, as bad as my English writing, my Chinese writing is 10 times worst!!!

That said, I can recognize every single word on all the pictures, I can still read "ropes", "hook", "knife" those kind of simple words. I am pretty sure Japanese writing are not exactly the same, all these are "traditional" or classic Chinese writing, the modern writings in China is actually different and they look more Japanese than anything to me and I cannot for the life of me read those. They eliminate this kind of writing, only the old farts like me still know(should) these.

Like in this picture, it said  fly-sky-spirit-fire-poison-dragon-gun.  It's like " spiritual flying poison dragon spear " from my understanding.

Ha ha, I think there are other Chinese on this forum that can read better than me. But I am pretty sure this is in Chinese.


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## drop bear (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Here's one. I don't agree with some of what this guy's doing, but the example at 1:21 (should be cued there) shows the basic movement well enough:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's it. Without the outrageous set-up. I just duck under and hand fight.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Not a knife & i doubt if anyone runs around with this but... not long ago i saw on tv that a guy attacked someone with a samurai sword in the streets.
Imagine this weapon


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That's it. Without the outrageous set-up. I just duck under and hand fight.


Agreed. There's a lot I think is misunderstood in the teaching of these set-ups. They serve a different purpose today than they did when they were used against swordsmen.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> There's a lot I think is misunderstood in the teaching of these set-ups.


what exactly ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> what exactly ?


So, a lot of how those are set up was built around dealing with a swordman - either having a sword in-hand or to keep them away from drawing one. With that concern, some of the setups make far more sense than in a modern context. But they aren't taught that way.

Most - if understood well - can be adapted as tools for hand fighting and other situations. But if they are taught as rote, you just learn some overly convoluted ways to get to the techniques, without setting them up as well as you could.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> So, a lot of how those are set up was built around dealing with a swordman - either having a sword in-hand or to keep them away from drawing one. With that concern, some of the setups make far more sense than in a modern context. But they aren't taught that way.
> 
> Most - if understood well - can be adapted as tools for hand fighting and other situations. But if they are taught as rote, you just learn some overly convoluted ways to get to the techniques, without setting them up as well as you could.


i agree on that & that´s why i say a knife attack never happens like in a Dojo. exactly what Emin Boztepe was saying in the video i posted. A slight change of an angle ..you´re cut.  This is why i now am looking more at escrima.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Are the few of the pictures you posted supposedly Japanese? I could swear they are all Chinese as I recognize the characters. I just forgot most of them after being here for 49 years and never use Chinese.............More that I was very bad in Chinese even when I was in Hong Kong!!! Believe it or not, as bad as my English writing, my Chinese writing is 10 times worst!!!
> 
> That said, I can recognize every single word on all the pictures, I can still read "ropes", "hook", "knife" those kind of simple words. I am pretty sure Japanese writing are not exactly the same, all these are "traditional" or classic Chinese writing, the modern writings in China is actually different and they look more Japanese than anything to me and I cannot for the life of me read those. They eliminate this kind of writing, only the old farts like me still know(should) these.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's definitely from a Chinese version of the Wubei Zhi, these are some of the oldest extant illustrations (hundreds of years).  (Hand-drawn, mind you) Copies of the Bubishi tend to age a little newer.  There are also many Japanese versions of the work (Bubi shi), so there are a mix of hanzi and kanji, Chinese/Japanese figures out there depending on the exact reproduction.  Illustrators have often replaced bald Asian guys for Asian guys with long, flowing hair.  Little differences. 

That's a Chinese fire lance, there are a lot of different versions.  Basically flamethrower on a stick.

I just thought it was a funny play on the topic, what if it's not a knife, but an M80 on a stick or something more fun.  Weapons make everything more dangerous.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> i agree on that & that´s why i say a knife attack never happens like in a Dojo. exactly what Emin Boztepe was saying in the video i posted. A slight change of an angle ..you´re cut.  This is why i now am looking more at escrima.


I'm a bit confused - nothing I said had anything to do with knives or how knife attacks happen in a dojo. My comments were around the training forms used in NGA.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You "Supposed" to be a master, right? You still got injured one out of 3 times. You sure you did not got slight cut the other two times. Saying one won't get even a slight cut is not believable.
> 
> *If OP said no serious cut*, maybe it's more believable, but not even a small cut? I cannot even say I won't cut myself shaving for sure.


Not even a scratch.

This is the statement you made: 


> As long as there is a contact, there will be some sort of cutting.



Which is based on two false assumptions. 
First, it assumes that contact can only occur with the sharpened portion of the blade.
Second, it assumes a degree of sharpness that, in my experience, isn't at all common.

The big difference in these three encounters was how I responded.
In the first, I followed the "do what they tell you" advice that is taught to kids. And I got hurt.
In both others, I did not. I responded aggressively and immediately when the knife was drawn. And I didn't get hurt.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I'm a bit confused - nothing I said had anything to do with knives or how knife attacks happen in a dojo. My comments were around the training forms used in NGA.


OK .. you mentioned swords & dealing with them in old times & how it transforms or can to open hand. Basically what Emin was talking about & teaches. 
look at escrima & think about my post


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> OK .. you mentioned swords & dealing with them in old times & how it transforms or can to open hand. Basically what Emin was talking about & teaches.
> look at escrima & think about my post


I have some training in FMA, so I'm familiar with the concept.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I have some training in FMA, so I'm familiar with the concept.


well then why ask about my post? you can carry on with this childish attitude or move on Gerry.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> well then why ask about my post? you can carry on with this childish attitude or move on Gerry.


Because your post seemed a non sequitur to my post. I still don't get where you got the link to how knife attacks are trained in the dojo from the origin of a set of training forms.

As for the rest, you seem awfully argumentative, just looking for things to call names about. It's a forum, so maybe relax a bit.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> awfully argumentative,


actually you seem to follow me & try to provoke a reaction. honestly grow up.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Sep 20, 2022)

skribs said:


> I think a lot of these things are blanket statements that are henpful to some, harmful to others, and most free-thinking people will be relatively unaffected. Let's take for example: "If you try to disarm someone, 100% chance you get shot."


There is no 100% in life, especially when defending an edged weapon.  I would say there is a high probability of getting _some_ sort of cut or stab against a (non-moron) knifeman.  Maybe 50%, 80% depending on skill levels.  _Even just 30% is "high" IMO, if that results in serious injury._  Of course, if you are fighting for your life, you have no choice but to accept the risk.  

I think the main point is that there is little margin of error when going against a knife.  Your moves must be especially crisp and clean and done decisively.  The timing in closing with the opponent must be just right.  Even so, inadvertent contact can occur resulting in minor damage, requiring just a few stitches.  I would try to follow this rule:  Respect the knife but don't let it make you tentative.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 20, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not even a scratch.
> 
> This is the statement you made:
> 
> ...


You have not seen my knives!!! Do I sharpen my knives, they ALL not sharp when they first arrive. I have to sharpen everyone of them. Mine is not exactly Cheap knives, at least 9Cr13MoV, D2 or N690 steel blade. My definition of sharp is cutting at least 10 layers of paper towel in a stack with slide motion of less than 1" slide travel. You touch it, it will cut. I am not those Forge In Fire making knives, but I do work on sharpening knives.

I agree, when I watch those videos how they disarm knives, how they do grappling with knives, to me, it's dangerous. It's more effective to just attack.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You have not seen my knives!!! Do I sharpen my knives, they ALL not sharp when they first arrive. I have to sharpen everyone of them. Mine is not exactly Cheap knives, at least 9Cr13MoV, D2 or N690 steel blade. My definition of sharp is cutting at least 10 layers of paper towel in a stack with slide motion of less than 1" slide travel. You touch it, it will cut. I am not those Forge In Fire making knives, but I do work on sharpening knives.
> 
> I agree, when I watch those videos how they disarm knives, how they do grappling with knives, to me, it's dangerous. It's more effective to just attack.


So some knives (including yours) are very sharp. Some knives are not.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 20, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Not a knife & i doubt if anyone runs around with this but... not long ago i saw on tv that a guy attacked someone with a samurai sword in the streets.
> Imagine this weapon




Hi J-T-B, 

You mentioned knives and now axes and serious and carrying around. 
I have had swung and used in anger the following:
Axes, Machetes, Kitchen Knives (large and small) , screw drivers, ...
I have used a sword in a house to defend against an intruder, as well as other smaller blades and lots of improvised weapons all over. 

So, could you provide a little feedback to your training experience, systems , teachers and/or experiences if not able to discuss the later.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> So some knives (including yours) are very sharp. Some knives are not.


I don't know why some carry knives that are not sharp!!! I sharpen them, never use for opening envelops, cut boxes or anything. I have box cutter for that. The one in my pocket is always at the tip top condition.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know why some carry knives that are not sharp!!! I sharpen them, never use for opening envelops, cut boxes or anything. I have box cutter for that. The one in my pocket is always at the tip top condition.


I have worked a super ton of cuttings. Recovered a lot of knives into evidence. One night in particular I worked 5 stabbings. From what I have seen the vast majority of knife attacks are done with knives that are not sharp.

Lots of homeless people carry dull kitchen steak knives. May people just grab a dull knife out of a drawer before attacking. Or go for that flimsy dull "truck stop" folder in their pocket.

A knife very well may be sharp, but most likely you will in my opinion be attacked by a dull knife.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I have worked a super ton of cuttings. Recovered a lot of knives into evidence. One night in particular I worked 5 stabbings. From what I have seen the vast majority of knife attacks are done with knives that are not sharp.
> 
> Lots of homeless people carry dull kitchen steak knives. May people just grab a dull knife out of a drawer before attacking. Or go for that flimsy dull "truck stop" folder in their pocket.
> 
> A knife very well may be sharp, but most likely you will in my opinion be attacked by a dull knife.


Good to hear.

Ha ha, I have no plan in attacking people. I hope I never even have to pull it out. If I get to the knife, that means I lost my cane already. If I pull the knife, it's desperate. It has to be as sharp as possible.

BTW, in your experience, what is the % of people that pull out knives know how to use the knife? Or they just swinging around? When I put a knife in my pocket, I make sure I at least slash and thrust my heavy bags with a rubber knife I bought. I found video on Filipino Kali knife and watch what they are doing. Turn out the moves are very similar to their escrima Kali stick fight. So it's not hard for me to follow at all as I practice the stick for about 3 months before already. I actually have a Thread about this here yesterday. I believe if I carry any weapon, I better know at least a little how to use it. I have been practicing stick fight with a cane for a year and half already just to carry a cane. Just carry without knowing how to use it might be more dangerous.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Good to hear.
> 
> Ha ha, I have no plan in attacking people. I hope I never even have to pull it out. If I get to the knife, that means I lost my cane already. If I pull the knife, it's desperate. It has to be as sharp as possible.
> 
> BTW, in your experience, what is the % of people that pull out knives know how to use the knife? Or they just swinging around? When I put a knife in my pocket, I make sure I at least slash and thrust my heavy bags with a rubber knife I bought. I found video on Filipino Kali knife and watch what they are doing. Turn out the moves are very similar to their escrima Kali stick fight. So it's not hard for me to follow at all as I practice the stick for about 3 months before already. I actually have a Thread about this here yesterday. I believe if I carry any weapon, I better know at least a little how to use it. I have been practicing stick fight with a cane for a year and half already just to carry a cane. Just carry without knowing how to use it might be more dangerous.


What I would fear most is deceptive, aggressive, shanking style attacks. I would imagine if someone knows how to use one and is going to attack you, most likely it would be a prison style attack.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> What I would fear most is deceptive, aggressive, shanking style attacks. I would imagine if someone knows how to use one and is going to attack you, most likely it would be a prison style attack.


I don't know what you mean by prison style attack. Please explain. What is shanking style attack?


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## Holmejr (Sep 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know what you mean by prison style attack. Please explain. What is shanking style attack?


A shank in the prison system is typically a thin pointed weapon, often rounded and used for thrusting type of attacks. Thrust, pull, thrust, pull in rapid succession. Of course this can be accomplished with a traditional knife as well. Less or more easy based on blade design.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 20, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> A shank in the prison system is typically a thin pointed weapon, often rounded and used for thrusting type of attacks. Thrust, pull, thrust, pull in rapid succession. Of course this can be accomplished with a traditional knife as well. Less or more easy based on blade design.


I see, thanks

Actually I saw those on tv, I was amazed how fast they can stick it over and over. I actually practice that like punching with one hand, just keep sticking/punching. I notice at the beginning, I could do it very slow because I don't get use to it. But after a few days, I can do it faster. Just practice. On the heavy bag, I practice low-high-low 3 thrust in a roll.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 20, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> So some knives (including yours) are very sharp. Some knives are not.


It doesn't matter.  Even a not very sharp knife can do damage - I think it would just hurt more.  And I doubt the attacker would be willing to let you examine his blade, anyway.  Defensive tactics wouldn't change, IMO.  More important than the sharpness of the knife is the sharpness of its wielder and defender.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 20, 2022)

Shanking:





In my opinion people are more likely to slash defensively with a knife, but offensively people are more likely to thrust and puncture.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 21, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> A shank in the prison system is typically a thin pointed weapon, often rounded and used for thrusting type of attacks. Thrust, pull, thrust, pull in rapid succession. Of course this can be accomplished with a traditional knife as well. Less or more easy based on blade design.


Yeah I wanna see some of these so called experts disarm a raging 220 Lb prisoner who knows the score with a shank. Ain't gonna happen in most cases😎


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> It doesn't matter.  Even a not very sharp knife can do damage - I think it would just hurt more.  And I doubt the attacker would be willing to let you examine his blade, anyway.  Defensive tactics wouldn't change, IMO.  More important than the sharpness of the knife is the sharpness of its wielder and defender.


Agreed. The point was about whether you’re going to get cut every time, and of course a less-sharp knife is less likely to cut in incidental contact.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Shanking:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’d be my expectation, but based on very little evidence in my case.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah I wanna see some of these so called experts disarm a raging 220 Lb prisoner who knows the score with a shank. Ain't gonna happen in most cases😎


If someone shanks by surprise in close quarters with a strength advantage, most defenses would fail. But that doesn’t mean you can’t improve your odds a bit. And, of course, you can improve your odds more against lesser attacks.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 21, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If someone shanks by surprise in close quarters with a strength advantage, most defenses would fail. But that doesn’t mean you can’t improve your odds a bit. And, of course, you can improve your odds more against lesser attacks.


Yes some training is better than none for example one video showing a realistic way to defend in escrima which I posted. Of course I'm not saying it's the only way but most Dojo knife defence is just bull. I mean Gerry you look a clean cut young man and against a raging Con with a shank I don't rate your chances. Sorry but that's the reality of it. I doubt if I would have any chance either...definitely come away injured.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yes some training is better than none for example one video showing a realistic way to defend in escrima which I posted. Of course I'm not saying it's the only way but most Dojo knife defence is just bull. I mean Gerry you look a clean cut young man and against a raging Con with a shank I don't rate your chances. Sorry but that's the reality of it. I doubt if I would have any chance either...definitely come away injured.


Thanks for calling me young. LOL

As for the rest, that someone looks clean-cut isn't really a great measure of their danger. There are some really clean-cut military folks out there who would mess me up on my scruffiest day.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 21, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Thanks for calling me young. LOL
> 
> As for the rest, that someone looks clean-cut isn't really a great measure of their danger. There are some really clean-cut military folks out there who would mess me up on my scruffiest day.


Was just fun Gerry.


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## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> I have heard it this way many times, not always.
> 
> 
> I agree Absolutes usually are not something that one can count on in dealing with violence and human beings.
> ...



I don't specifically disagree with anything you've said...however, if you're dealing with someone who knows where to stab, switches hands, and can do so with speed and precision...I would bet, your interaction with that individual, was either the result of a poor life choice(s), or an occupational hazard.


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## Buka (Sep 21, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yes some training is better than none for example one video showing a realistic way to defend in escrima which I posted. Of course I'm not saying it's the only way but most Dojo knife defence is just bull. I mean Gerry you look a clean cut young man and against a raging Con with a shank I don't rate your chances. Sorry but that's the reality of it. I doubt if I would have any chance either...definitely come away injured.


As for Dojo knife defense being bull, I don't know if that's the case everywhere, but it sure as hell was with the Dojo I first trained in a zillion years ago. And I don't mean just slightly bad, I mean deplorable.

Thank God none of us had to carry out what we were taught, it would have been very foolish deaths.


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## drop bear (Sep 21, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Agreed. There's a lot I think is misunderstood in the teaching of these set-ups. They serve a different purpose today than they did when they were used against swordsmen.



I don't think so. We can look at sword fighting grappling through things like hema or dog brothers. And the concepts are very similar.

Obviously there are some weapon entanglements that goes on but otherwise.....






By the way sword guy possibly did have time to get a shot off before he hit the deck but didn't because he was freaking out. 

I have found this to be the case a bit

Now it is not always going to work. But it probably works as well as being able to catch a guys knife arm out of mid air. 

But I think that changes the dynamics of knife fights a bit.


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## Buka (Sep 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I don't think so. We can look at sword fighting grappling through things like hema or dog brothers. And the concepts are very similar.
> 
> Obviously there are some weapon entanglements that goes on but otherwise.....
> 
> ...


That was a sweet takedown.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 21, 2022)

Buka said:


> As for Dojo knife defense being bull, I don't know if that's the case everywhere, but it sure as hell was with the Dojo I first trained in a zillion years ago. And I don't mean just slightly bad, I mean deplorable.
> 
> Thank God none of us had to carry out what we were taught, it would have been very foolish deaths.



Yeah. There is this story told where someone walks in to a bjj club or something with a trainer and halfway through rolling pulls it out and yells "reality" or something.

And the thing is I could probably walk in to 90% of gyms be they knife fighters or not. Show them the knife then go for them and still be successful.


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## drop bear (Sep 21, 2022)

Buka said:


> That was a sweet takedown.


Belly to belly suplex is an underrated throw for SD.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I don't specifically disagree with anything you've said...however, if you're dealing with someone who knows where to stab, switches hands, and can do so with speed and precision...I would bet, your interaction with that individual, was either the result of a poor life choice(s), or an occupational hazard.



GreenieMeanie, 
Can you explain the usage of However?
It is used per the definition 
_"adverb_


1.
used to introduce a statement that contrasts with or seems to contradict something that has been said previously."


So are disagreeing with yourself or with me? 
Either way cool and yes, Choices matter.


----------



## GreenieMeanie (Sep 21, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> GreenieMeanie,
> Can you explain the usage of However?
> It is used per the definition
> _"adverb_
> ...


I am pleasantly stunned by being talked to this way, never seen it.

It’s not so much a matter of disagreeing or contrasting, as preemptively avoiding a time-wasting argument, over something I didn’t say….which happens frequently for me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I don't think so. We can look at sword fighting grappling through things like hema or dog brothers. And the concepts are very similar.
> 
> Obviously there are some weapon entanglements that goes on but otherwise.....
> 
> ...


Perhaps I wasn’t clear. If I’m holding an arm that is connected to a sword, there are movements that aren’t useful because of the sword’s position (either danger of the sharp end, or it just getting in the way). And there may also be directions I can love in to use the weight and leverage of the sword.

Those forms were designed around that context. The entries served that context (how well, I can’t speak to, as I’m not trained in sword disarms). 

In empty-hand fighting, they don’t serve that purpose. They do contain some principles that can be used well for things like grip-fighting and gaining position, and are best taught to that end.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 21, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> I am pleasantly stunned by being talked to this way, never seen it.
> 
> It’s not so much a matter of disagreeing or contrasting, as preemptively avoiding a time-wasting argument, over something I didn’t say….which happens frequently for me.


You mean people quote you out of context?
You mean people only read a word or two and go down a rabbit hole?
On the internet you say.  

**
Seriously, I did not mean to have this go down a rabbit hole, The had to read what you wrote a few times and it all came back to usage ot "however". 
Like I said either way cool. 
It is the internet  

Peace and thank you


----------



## Holmejr (Sep 21, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I see, thanks
> 
> Actually I saw those on tv, I was amazed how fast they can stick it over and over. I actually practice that like punching with one hand, just keep sticking/punching. I notice at the beginning, I could do it very slow because I don't get use to it. But after a few days, I can do it faster. Just practice. On the heavy bag, I practice low-high-low 3 thrust in a roll.


Now try defending against it. We call that speed building.


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## Holmejr (Sep 21, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah I wanna see some of these so called experts disarm a raging 220 Lb prisoner who knows the score with a shank. Ain't gonna happen in most cases😎


Defense against a trained knife fighter is daunting. They will counter your defense, jam you, use their free hand to clear. Difficult if not impossible. An untrained perp that only knows thrusting is easier to deal with. We speed train the thrust at random angles until our instructor call out “lock” which can mean lock, break, disarm, etc. This has to be accomplished is 3 seconds or less. New students tend to flinch, breath erratic and panic. In time, they learn to control their reaction, allowing for more vigorous training. Challenging and fun.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I did a lot of weapon defence by denying access to that weapon. Which doesn't take a lot of weapon fighting skill.


No attacker comes and says, "hey are you ready"  most cases you won´t see it until it´s in his hand also a lot of people get attacked from behind/ side sucker punch style.
from your statement you´ve probably never had a situation outside of your dojo. watch the Emin Boztepe video i posted he talks sense about knife defence.


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> No attacker comes and says, "hey are you ready"  most cases you won´t see it until it´s in his hand also a lot of people get attacked from behind/ side sucker punch style.
> from your statement you´ve probably never had a situation outside of your dojo. watch the Emin Boztepe video i posted he talks sense about knife defence.



I have been in more situations than Emin Boztepe.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> No attacker comes and says, "hey are you ready"  most cases you won´t see it until it´s in his hand also a lot of people get attacked from behind/ side sucker punch style.
> from your statement you´ve probably never had a situation outside of your dojo. watch the Emin Boztepe video i posted he talks sense about knife defence.


You once again made very bad assumptions about others.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I have been in more situations than Emin Boztepe.


That feels like a pretty safe bet, right there.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You once again made very bad assumptions about others.


Ditto....



Gerry Seymour said:


> hat feels like a pretty safe bet, right there.


yeah OK Gerry... haha
The guys a pro Gerry you clearly know nothing about him. Please stop it...laughing so hard !


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Ditto....
> 
> 
> yeah OK Gerry... haha
> The guys a pro Gerry you clearly know nothing about him. Please stop it...laughing so hard !


Just for reference, the person you are saying has never had a situation outside of his dojo has been in many situations due to his line of work. It's not a knock on Emin (at least, it may be but not purely), so much as a knock on you making assumptions about posters here.


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## Cynik75 (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> No attacker comes and says, "hey are you ready"


I am not sure if this stetment is true. Cold killers will not show the knive, but robbers? They use the knives as a scare tool and they show knives on purpose. And in many street altercations there is the moment of "This is my knife and I am going to kill you".


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> I am not sure if this stetment is true. Cold killers will not show the knive, but robbers? They use the knives as a scare tool and they show knives on purpose. And in many street altercations there is the moment of "This is my knife and I am going to kill you".


You have a point there but the ones who will use it don't wave it around.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> You have a point there but the ones who will use it don't wave it around.



Yes they will. There isn't really an exclusive knife attack.

Here we go.





Old mate is knife waving like a mad thing.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> I am not sure if this stetment is true. Cold killers will not show the knive, but robbers? They use the knives as a scare tool and they show knives on purpose. And in many street altercations there is the moment of "This is my knife and I am going to kill you".



Also even cold killers need opportunity. So you don't let them get hands in to pockets.

I mean it is pretty obvious if someone is pissed at you and is hiding their hands. He may not be up for a fist fight.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> You have a point there but the ones who will use it don't wave it around.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> mean it is pretty obvious if someone is pissed at you and is hiding their hands. He may not be up for a fist fight.


It's not obvious, so why do people get sucker punched? You talk like you can see every situation..sorry but not true.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 14, 2022)

There are different situations. The video of the guy waving the knife at the police obviously has mental problem. For robbing, they likely show the knife hoping you will give up and hand over everything peacefully. BUT if a person intends to do you harm, I doubt he will pull out the knife and wave it around. That's the scary one, how are you going to be on alert all the time.

There is no one right way.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

The average kid can practice this.




How many kids play with these.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

These were popular in Glasgow Scotland back in the day. Very dangerous


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## Alan0354 (Oct 14, 2022)

It is hard to defend if someone is out to get you. Luckily, I don't think that happens that often unless you really stepped on someone's toes bad. I myself cannot imagine anyone will do it to me.

For the other situation, I always carry my crook cane and I practice stick fight for over a year and half on my own. I will have over 10" of reach advantage over the knife. Hopefully that will be enough of an advantage for me.

The other question is how much they practice using a knife before they go out and use the knife? I would not carry any weapon if I don't practice with it. I start carrying a folding knife in my pocket, I start practicing on heavy bags and in air. I even made a knife that is safe to use on the heavy bag. I practice shanking and cutting learning from FMA knife which is very similar to the movement of escrima stick fight.

Carrying a weapon without practicing is more dangerous than not carrying anything. Stick fight was the only reason I join this place, I really don't care that much about bare knuckles, just join in the talk about MMA and TMA.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It is hard to defend if someone is out to get you. Luckily, I don't think that happens that often unless you really stepped on someone's toes bad. I myself cannot imagine anyone will do it to me.
> 
> For the other situation, I always carry my crook cane and I practice stick fight for over a year and half on my own. I will have over 10" of reach advantage over the knife. Hopefully that will be enough of an advantage for me.
> 
> ...


The situation is different if you're attacked by say 2 guys. Impossible to watch everything if they're moving fast, one moves to your side..cut, stab. You're in trouble. Even the dumbest kid can do it.
Fact is though even kids like to play with blades & even without martial arts training can be fast and dangerous


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## Cynik75 (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> These were popular in Glasgow Scotland back in the day. Very dangerous


Abouit 25 years ago my punkrocker friend called Fantomas was attacked in a tram by two nazi-skinheads. Before he managed to pull the razor out of his pocket he lost one tooth and earne some bruises.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> Abouit 25 years ago my punkrocker friend called Fantomas was attacked in a tram by two nazi-skinheads. Before he managed to pull the razor out of his pocket he lost one tooth and earne some bruises.


Cool story bro


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Here's a better story, cool girls, razors


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## Cynik75 (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Cool story bro


My point was that keeping the blad hidden is not always thes best way.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> The situation is different if you're attacked by say 2 guys. Impossible to watch everything if they're moving fast, one moves to your side..cut, stab. You're in trouble. Even the dumbest kid can do it.
> Fact is though even kids like to play with blades & even without martial arts training can be fast and dangerous


Hopefully the cane even the odds a little.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Hopefully the cane even the odds a little.


Definitely will. What's good about it is it's not seen to be a weapon in the streets.
At least not here. Look at the below Video just random attacks. The first guy just didn't realise or was scared just wanted to get past the guy. It happens so fast. From the side stab it's  done.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Definitely will. What's good about it is it's not seen to be a weapon in the streets.
> At least not here. Look at the below Video just random attacks. The first guy just didn't realise or was scared just wanted to get past the guy. It happens so fast. From the side stab it's  done.


Scary.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> It's not obvious, so why do people get sucker punched? You talk like you can see every situation..sorry but not true.



Poor distance management generally.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Scary.


Just watching the news here, a young boy chased into a Supermarkt cornered  & in front of witnesses stabbed by a gang of youths
.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Poor distance management generally.


Not in a crowded bar. Guy smashed you with a glass from the side. You don't see it coming, that's my point here. You cannot always see the danger so how do you prepare? Different if a guy approches you.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Not in a crowded bar. Guy smashed you with a glass from the side. You don't see it coming, that's my point here. You cannot always see the danger so how do you prepare? Different if a guy approches you.


You are talking about two different things. One is a blindsided hit, the other is an attack you know is coming. 
Are you talking about awareness? Some mystical higher sense of order? Personally, I think that is BS. But being aware in whatever the situation is just common sense. In a 'bad' bar? Head up, don't lean on the bar like a slouch and hold your glass tight. Survey and see the room. A person does not have to be a douche to do these things.


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## Jared Traveler (Oct 14, 2022)

Regarding someone showing the knife vs hiding it...

Generally when someone shows a knife, the knife is being displayed for the purpose of "violence of action." In other words the criminal is displaying it to gain compliance. Often this is an economic crime. The best way to deescalate this is through compliance. They want your car, phone, wallet, whatever.... Give it to them. The best way to escalate this is to resist, now you end up getting cut, or killed by someone who didn't really intend on doing that. This is what the Krav Maga crowd hasn't seed to figure out....

Regarding the hidden knife. You don't have to see the knife to prepare for the reality that you are in a knife fight. Awareness of hand accountability is important. If you can't see both of his hands, it's a high probability a weapon is going to come into play. You can prepare mentally and tactically for a knife attack, prior to seeing it. If someone is not showing you both hands, begin to prepare that a weapon is likely about to be used.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> You are talking about two different things. One is a blindsided hit, the other is an attack you know is coming.


yes but the poster said he can stop a knife coming out before it happens, my point is/was you cannot do this in a lot of situations. follow the thread please.


tkdroamer said:


> Are you talking about awareness?


the other poster was talking about this...follow the thread.


tkdroamer said:


> Personally, I think that is BS.


you think everything is i post so no big deal ..bro  haha 


tkdroamer said:


> Survey and see the room.


have you ever been in a really crowded bar where people are very close & all around you? 



tkdroamer said:


> being aware in whatever the situation is just common sense.


yes but if you had followed the thread you would read my points on the unexpected happening fast.  never mind...


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Generally when someone shows a knife, the knife is being displayed for the purpose of "violence of action." In other words the criminal is displaying it to gain compliance.


yes i agree


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## tkdroamer (Oct 14, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> You are talking about two different things. One is a blindsided hit, the other is an attack you know is coming.
> Are you talking about awareness? Some mystical higher sense of order? Personally, I think that is BS. But being aware in whatever the situation is just common sense. In a 'bad' bar? Head up, don't lean on the bar like a slouch and hold your glass tight. Survey and see the room. A person does not have to be a douche to do these things.


Explain why you disagree?


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## tkdroamer (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> yes but the poster said he can stop a knife coming out before it happens, my point is/was you cannot do this in a lot of situations. follow the thread please.
> 
> the other poster was talking about this...follow the thread.
> 
> ...


I tried to follow the thread and it is all over the place. That was my point about you using two scenarios. 

Yes, I have been in a crowded bar more than I care to admit. My assertions would apply even more in this case.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> Explain why you disagree?


no


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> I tried to follow the thread and it is all over the place. That was my point about you using two scenarios.


dear me... never mind. maybe too complicated.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> My assertions would apply even more in this case.


OK & if you cannot see all around you? not sure what bars you´ve been in but some bars get very full & are dark. Of course the Pink Flamingo bar might be different


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

These Welsh police officers handled this like a Boss with no loss of life.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Not in a crowded bar. Guy smashed you with a glass from the side. You don't see it coming, that's my point here. You cannot always see the danger so how do you prepare? Different if a guy approches you.



You sometimes can't. Fighting has risk. 

Where you can prepare. You should.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Just watching the news here, a young boy chased into a Supermarkt cornered  & in front of witnesses stabbed by a gang of youths
> .


The worst is when you don't expect anything and all of a sudden it happens. You might have things in your mind and it just doesn't register.

We have this everyday here because they let all the crazy people and criminals out, they caught a lot of those crazy attacks on videos.

Gangs too, but here, they shoot!!!


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## Alan0354 (Oct 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Poor distance management generally.


It's not distance or training, worst is when you are not expecting. You cannot be on the lookout all the time, one has to live life!!!


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> OK & if you cannot see all around you? not sure what bars you´ve been in but some bars get very full & are dark. Of course the Pink Flamingo bar might be different


The pink flamingo seems like a decent night out.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's not distance or training, worst is when you are not expecting. You cannot be on the lookout all the time, one has to live life!!!



Is there much of a point discussing tactics to situations we basically can do nothing about?


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## Alan0354 (Oct 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is there much of a point discussing tactics to situations we basically can do nothing about?


If you are expecting a fight, yes. But in those street attacks by crazy people, are you telling me you are on the lookout all the time? What kind of life will that be?


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## Holmejr (Oct 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yes they will. There isn't really an exclusive knife attack.
> 
> Here we go.
> 
> ...


He’s really not waving it around at the point of attack and seems to make a very distinct hammer grip type stab. In training vids of untrained law enforcement caught off guard, the officer almost always steps back into the zone of max impact out of panic. A trained person will tend to step into the attack (zero pressure) and attempt to control the weapon.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The pink flamingo seems like a decent night out.





drop bear said:


> The pink flamingo seems like a decent night out.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> If you are expecting a fight, yes. But in those street attacks by crazy people, are you telling me you are on the lookout all the time? What kind of life will that be?


He doesn't Alan..
Don't waste time on it.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> If you are expecting a fight, yes. But in those street attacks by crazy people, are you telling me you are on the lookout all the time? What kind of life will that be?



The problem with hypothetical are they are a set of infinite possibilities. In which case nothing matters.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> He doesn't Alan..
> Don't waste time on it.


When I go out, I hold the cane in my hand like holding a stick and walk with a bounce. I make sure people know I am NOT using the cane to walk!!! If that discourage some from attacking me, the cane serves the purpose.

There are so many attacks on older Asians here, if I have to keep worrying and look around, then I might as well not go out. I look around if I remember, I am not going to keep looking and looking all the time expecting people to attack me. I want to live.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> When I go out, I hold the cane in my hand like holding a stick and walk with a bounce. I make sure people know I am NOT using the cane to walk!!! If that discourage some from attacking me, the cane serves the purpose.
> 
> There are so many attacks on older Asians here, if I have to keep worrying and look around, then I might as well not go out. I look around if I remember, I am not going to keep looking and looking all the time expecting people to attack me. I want to live.



There are percentages. If you look before you cross a road. You have less chance of being hit by a car.

Now could a car come flying out of an aeroplane or something and hit you giving you no chance?

Well yes. 

Sos.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2022)

drop bear said:


> There are percentages. If you look before you cross a road. You have less chance of being hit by a car.
> 
> Now could a car come flying out of an aeroplane or something and hit you giving you no chance?
> 
> ...


And even without going that far, a car could blow through at 150 KPH. Even if you look, you probably won’t see that coming. 

But that’s not the percentages. And it’s also something you can’t realistically plan for on a city street. So you do what you can.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There are so many attacks on older Asians here, if I have to keep worrying and look around, then I might as well not go out. I look around if I remember, I am not going to keep looking and looking all the time expecting people to attack me. I want to live.


It's a sad world that one may be suddenly attacked while walking on the street.  But as you say, living with paranoia every day is not the way to live.  It's a fact that cowardly attackers target those that look unable to defend themselves.  We can, however, notch up our situational awareness a bit, have a confident posture and train ourselves in self-defense.  Sometimes we read about this riff raff biting off more than they can chew.  I love those stories.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There are so many attacks on older Asians here


Where are you living Alan?


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Another thing that pushed up the chances of random attacks is where you live. *Disclaimer: non political.*
where i live it was fairly peaceful up until 2015 when a certain woman in Germany decided to open the borders. 3 camps around & in the town of immigrants from every 3rd world hole. Now it's Ukrainians & Russians pouring in. If you think this isn't going to affect Europeans cities then you're crazy or living in a bubble.
I've lived in my part of town for many years, now people don't like to walk the streets at night. Indeed two stabbings less than 10 minutes from me. One a young girl in the neck & one street away from me a guy was cycling along in the evening and as he passed a guy , the guy without warning stabbed him. I'm telling you the truth here. So my point is other factors come into play here. One poster made an absolutely ridiculous statement on this thread about being hit by a car or a car flying out of a plane. I would like to say my honest opinion about the said Poster but I'll probably be banned.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Where are you living Alan?


I live in the bayarea close to San Jose, about 40mi from San Francisco.

San Francisco is a big mess.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Another thing that pushed up the chances of random attacks is where you live. *Disclaimer: non political.*
> where i live it was fairly peaceful up until 2015 when a certain woman in Germany decided to open the borders. 3 camps around & in the town of immigrants from every 3rd world hole. Now it's Ukrainians & Russians pouring in. If you think this isn't going to affect Europeans cities then you're crazy or living in a bubble.
> I've lived in my part of town for many years, now people don't like to walk the streets at night. Indeed two stabbings less than 10 minutes from me. One a young girl in the neck & one street away from me a guy was cycling along in the evening and as he passed a guy , the guy without warning stabbed him. I'm telling you the truth here. So my point is other factors come into play here. One poster made an absolutely ridiculous statement on this thread about being hit by a car or a car flying out of a plane. I would like to say my honest opinion about the said Poster but I'll probably be banned.


I know exactly what you mean, you should be happy she got defeated. You read about bombing in Sweden? Europe is changing for the better......After all the big mess. We are now getting worst. Not only migrants, they release criminals from jail................

Until the beginning of last year, I was just spending more time doing weights, kick boxing at home just as aerobics. It's because of all the crimes, I started to practice stick fight, now knife fight!!! I used to do about 4 hours a week, now it's over 6 hours after adding the sticks and knife.

Just the last 2 days, two police got killed and one in critical condition being ambushed, attacking helpless disable people all over the place. News of these everyday.

The worst is people here keep talking about all the defense and keep saying situation awareness, problem is how can anyone be looking over the shoulder every minute? One old person that need to use a wheelchair got stabbed from behind in a fast food place. You cannot even eat in peace. I think the more important thing as people get old is EXERCISE and have more muscle and mobile. So they don't look weak and helpless. Most attacker choose old and weak ones. that's why I hold my cane like a stick ready to fight when I walk outside.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 15, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. The statement that you will get cut if you have to defend yourself against a knife. It is almost always spoken absolute terms. No question about it it will happen!!!


I think it’s probably a clumsy shorthand way of saying, knives are very dangerous, relatively easy with which to inflict injury and thus one should treat defence against then with commensurate caution.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I know exactly what you mean, you should be happy she got defeated. You read about bombing in Sweden? Europe is changing for the better......After all the big mess. We are now getting worst. Not only migrants, they release criminals from jail................
> 
> Until the beginning of last year, I was just spending more time doing weights, kick boxing at home just as aerobics. It's because of all the crimes, I started to practice stick fight, now knife fight!!! I used to do about 4 hours a week, now it's over 6 hours after adding the sticks and knife.
> 
> ...


I always tell older chaps ( myself included as I'm 56) to pump some iron to look strong. We can't stop aging but we can try our best to hold onto some muscle & strength. Look like a mean son of a ***** 😃 look like you'll handle Business.
We're on the same wavelength Alan
Appearance does help too. I mean I see it when I go out in a t shirt how young Punks just think twice, move out my way. Weight trained all my adult life, tattooed, shaved head. I am that Bull.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I think it’s probably a clumsy shorthand way of saying, knives are very dangerous, relatively easy with which to inflict injury and thus one should treat defence against then with commensurate caution.


Knife is very dangerous, it's very hard to believe one can be unscathed fighting someone with a knife. Even if I play with knife alone, I still have to be very careful!!!

People even said a lot of knives people use are not sharp!!! Don't count on it!!! At least I can say my knives are SHARP. I am into sharpening knives, to put into perspective, I bought over 10 knives in $45 to $70 range which is middle of the road like Kubey, Off-Grid, Kizer brands. NONE of them came sharp. I have to sharpen every one of them. My test is folding paper towel into a stack, sharp is cutting at least 15 layers with motion of 1" slice(close to 1/2" deep into the stack). All the new knives only cut like 2 to 4 layers when they first arrived new. I am talking about SHARP. Anyone got touched by my knives, they'll be cut.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Knife is very dangerous, it's very hard to believe one can be unscathed fighting someone with a knife. Even if I play with knife alone, I still have to be very careful!!!
> 
> People even said a lot of knives people use are not sharp!!! Don't count on it!!! At least I can say my knives are SHARP. I am into sharpening knives, to put into perspective, I bought over 10 knives in $45 to $70 range which is middle of the road like Kubey, Off-Grid, Kizer brands. NONE of them came sharp. I have to sharpen every one of them. My test is folding paper towel into a stack, sharp is cutting at least 15 layers with motion of 1" slice(close to 1/2" deep into the stack). All the new knives only cut like 2 to 4 layers when they first arrived new. I am talking about SHARP. Anyone got touched by my knives, they'll be cut.


I thought there was a court order requiring you to be supervised when using sharp tools? 😉

I _love_ sharpening stuff two, but I’m not very good at it, despite having all the kit and watching numerous Youtube clips. It’s the lack of regular practise, I think.

I used to work in the (Steel) city where a famous scalpel manufacturer, Swan Morton, was located. I was given a tour of the facilities by one of my ex-patients and it was truly fascinating. Scalpels are sharper than…🤔…the wit of some of the poster’s on here, but the ladies who checked the edges, did so by eye, over a polarised light source, fanning stacks of blades in their hands like a pack of cards!😳 The manager was worried about when these ageing women retired, he would be unable to replace them and it couldn’t be done as well by machine!


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Guy didn´t have a knife but attacked people. how cool is this he ties him up & films it all....
*But here´s a question, do you get some BJJ guys who purposly get involved in a maybe  not so dramatic situation to promote their schools? Film it?* not saying this guy did.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 15, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Another context I hear absolutes in is when firing a gun in self-defense. "You will not use your sights in a gunfight," is a phrase I have heard so many times. This is simply not a fact. Many will not, but some can.
> 
> But when people believe this, they don't even try to use theirs sights. This is the danger in thinking in absolutes like this. It can demotivate students to even try.


The two metrics are so different, but both have a common theme. 
An untrained/unconditioned person using either a knife or a gun is going to be sloppy. May not use the sights and will not keep their edge sharp. Regardless, both weapons exponentially increase the probability that you will get hurt. That is a constant.
To me, that is where the similarities end. Now it gets into ranged vs. un-ranged weapons and everything a person should do changes. 

The main emphasis to phrases like you said in the OP is to condition the mind of a person training against a weapon that getting cut does not equal instant death. 
I have seen videos and read articles about an officer who was shot nine (9) times and did not die and ultimately took down the perp. Another video showed an officer who totally freaked out from single, non-lethal shot, had a heart attack and died. Were there extenuating circumstances (overweight, etc...)? Sure, but the mental process applies to the point. 

"I am positively going to live" or "I am positively going to die". Which one sounds better to you?


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 16, 2022)

looks like these guys train realistic


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## drop bear (Oct 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> looks like these guys train realistic


Wrong sort of realism


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## Cynik75 (Oct 17, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> looks like these guys train realistic


What do you mean by realism in this case?


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## tkdroamer (Oct 17, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> What do you mean by realism in this case?


Really? C'mon man.


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## Cynik75 (Oct 18, 2022)

Really. 
Personally I can't see a lot of realism in this footage.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 18, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> Really.
> Personally I can't see a lot of realism in this footage.


Agreed. It might be a good drill (depending how it's used), but it doesn't depict any resistance or counter-timing. Nothing more realistic in it than any other passive-partner drill.


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## The Gray (Hair) Man (Oct 24, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> What are your thoughts on the realities of dealing with knife attacks?


Knives are scary. I practice training with a knife and we do scenario drills. There is nobody so far I've drilled or sparred with that I can't "cut" with my training knife - including when they try to immobilize my knife hand. Lots of times I get tagged too. There's no guarantee of success.

That said, not everyone that has a knife will use it for anything other than intimidation. Or if they do try to use it, they may not use it well.

That said again, anyone, regardless of their training, can be potentially dangerous with a knife. Sometimes even more dangerous because they don't attack in ways a "trained" person would attack. 

When it comes to a knife attack my priorities are:


Get away.
Talk my way out of it if I can't get away.
Deploy my knife if I can't talk my way out of it.
Use empty hands to create time and/or distance to give me the opportunity to deploy my knife.


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