# WSL PB VT and primary actions/hands



## wckf92 (Jul 15, 2018)

So for those of us who have been around this forum for a bit we may remember lengthy chats with our WSL brothers about topics such as "chasing hands", and "primary actions / secondary actions / auxiliary, and "it's all about the punch and/or clearing the line with things like bong, pak, jut to allow the punching to continue etc etc. 
Now, I'll admit I'm not fully understanding of their ways but recently I came across these videos and it is quite perplexing. This guy (Greece chapter of PBWSLVT?) seems to be using pak as a primary hand. 

I know our resident LFJ and Guy B. seem to be absent these days but figured if I post something along their way of thinking, perhaps they may pop back in to offer some input or clarifications.

Comments? Thoughts? Feedback?

[*crap! tried to upload the videos but for some reason this forum doesn't like .mp4 (?). Anyway, here is the URL on Facebook to view the videos...]





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1032300220271019
			




and...





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1037031443131230


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## lansao (Jul 15, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> So for those of us who have been around this forum for a bit we may remember lengthy chats with our WSL brothers about topics such as "chasing hands", and "primary actions / secondary actions / auxiliary, and "it's all about the punch and/or clearing the line with things like bong, pak, jut to allow the punching to continue etc etc.
> Now, I'll admit I'm not fully understanding of their ways but recently I came across these videos and it is quite perplexing. This guy (Greece chapter of PBWSLVT?) seems to be using pak as a primary hand.
> 
> I know our resident LFJ and Guy B. seem to be absent these days but figured if I post something along their way of thinking, perhaps they may pop back in to offer some input or clarifications.
> ...



Looks like some good kung fu in these videos.


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## Martial D (Jul 15, 2018)

I was always taught that everything is built around the attack as well. Bridge and attack non stop even while defending.

I don't have wsl though mine comes through Ching/Kwok


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## wckf92 (Jul 16, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I was always taught that everything is built around the attack as well. Bridge and attack non stop even while defending.
> 
> I don't have wsl though mine comes through Ching/Kwok



Yup...but these guys are all about the punch containing both, which is great but this guy in the video isn't doing that so hence I am confused and hoping someone from that camp will explain the thinking. 

...by Ching / Kwok do you mean Ip Ching/Sam Kwok?


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## Martial D (Jul 16, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Yup...but these guys are all about the punch containing both, which is great but this guy in the video isn't doing that so hence I am confused and hoping someone from that camp will explain the thinking.
> 
> ...by Ching / Kwok do you mean Ip Ching/Sam Kwok?


Yes


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## Danny T (Jul 16, 2018)

lansao said:


> Looks like some good kung fu in these videos.



Good drilling for a specific interception & counter attacking method to a point. Not fan of the stopping or pushing off and stepping back resetting directly in front of the attacker. But that's just me.

In your wc training are there other variables as to different striking combinations, entries, re-countering attacks by the opponent, clinching, takedowns and preventions that are done?
Even with lower level students, if/when disengaging never be in the same place.


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## lansao (Jul 16, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Good drilling for a specific interception & counter attacking method to a point. Not fan of the stopping or pushing off and stepping back resetting directly in front of the attacker. But that's just me.
> 
> In your wc training are there other variables as to different striking combinations, entries, re-countering attacks by the opponent, clinching, takedowns and preventions that are done?
> Even with lower level students, if/when disengaging never be in the same place.



Just wanted to say something nice about it. The partners here look like they’ve trained hard to get to a point where they can execute this way (and of course they’re showboating a little, otherwise mr abs would be wearing a shirt). From a technical perspective it looks like they’re just working a specific drill and resetting to repeat it.

I get where you’re coming from in terms of training muscle memory to reset and push your opponent away. That’s problematic if you train it in and accidentally do it in a fight when adrenaline is pumping (deal with problems once if you can help it). They should probably acknowledge the stopping point at close range and then reset so as to not confuse the push away as part of the movement itself. 

Also have trouble with the finger tips pointing directly at the opponent as it can make it easy to jam his fingers. We point our fingers vertically and practice making contact with the palm heal.

I just wanted to leave an encouraging/positive message lol.

We do drill strike interceptions, entries, re-countering (we say recapture), debasing, sweeps, chi gerk gets into prevention, clinch defense, wrist grabs, etc. Counters for all of them, and structured/random follow ups (always followup/through etc).


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## VPT (Jul 16, 2018)

Mr Abs also has impressive lats. That means he is a proper Southern stylist. You cannot be a believable Southern stylist if you cannot use your lats as sails on a boat.


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## lansao (Jul 16, 2018)

VPT said:


> Mr Abs also has impressive lats. That means he is a proper Southern stylist. You cannot be a believable Southern stylist if you cannot use your lats as sails on a boat.



An important insight for me on bong was that in order for me to relax my shoulders I needed to support them with my lats (push up from lats versus crunch up with traps).


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## Danny T (Jul 16, 2018)

lansao said:


> Just wanted to say something nice about it. The partners here look like they’ve trained hard to get to a point where they can execute this way (and of course they’re showboating a little, otherwise mr abs would be wearing a shirt). From a technical perspective it looks like they’re just working a specific drill and resetting to repeat it.
> 
> I get where you’re coming from in terms of training muscle memory to reset and push your opponent away. That’s problematic if you train it in and accidentally do it in a fight when adrenaline is pumping (deal with problems once if you can help it). They should probably acknowledge the stopping point at close range and then reset so as to not confuse the push away as part of the movement itself.
> 
> ...


Hope my question didn't off as being critical...wasn't my intent. Just making some observations and questions on your thoughts. Thank you.


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## lansao (Jul 16, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Hope my question didn't off as being critical...wasn't my intent. Just making some observations and questions on your thoughts. Thank you.



Nah not at all. Was speaking more for myself than anything. Want to try to encourage positives more often where I see them.


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## geezer (Jul 16, 2018)

VPT said:


> Mr Abs also has impressive lats. That means he is a proper Southern stylist. You cannot be a believable Southern stylist if you cannot use your lats as sails on a boat.



Man, that was true of my old sifu, LT. He did not look strong in the chest and shoulders, but when he flexed them, his lats indeed, were just like sails.


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## geezer (Jul 16, 2018)

lansao said:


> An important insight for me on bong was that in order for me to relax my shoulders I needed to support them with my lats (push up from lats versus crunch up with traps).




I'm not sure how that works, considering that lats pull down and in rather than upwards and out. They sure help sinking and adducting the elbow toward center, as in jum, jut, gum and downward lap sau, etc. but I don't quite see how your lats can "push up" a bong sau?


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## lansao (Jul 16, 2018)

geezer said:


> I'm not sure how that works, considering that lats pull down and in rather than upwards and out. They sure help sinking and adducting the elbow toward center, as in jum, jut, gum and downward lap sau, etc. but I don't quite see how your lats can "push up" a bong sau?



Hard to describe but can show you what I mean when you’re in town. More like expanding upward to support. We probably think about bong sao differently too so it may not apply for you.


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## geezer (Jul 16, 2018)

lansao said:


> Hard to describe but can show you what I mean when you’re in town. More like expanding upward to support. We probably think about bong sao differently too so it may not apply for you.



That's the trouble with forums. Things that are easy to show someone are hell to explain in words!


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## Danny T (Jul 16, 2018)

lansao said:


> More like expanding upward to support.


Okay. This I understand and can agree somewhat... it is because of the elbow positioning toward one's centerline that the lats engage and create the support.


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## VPT (Jul 16, 2018)

geezer said:


> I'm not sure how that works, considering that lats pull down and in rather than upwards and out. They sure help sinking and adducting the elbow toward center, as in jum, jut, gum and downward lap sau, etc. but I don't quite see how your lats can "push up" a bong sau?



I've been dealing with some pain when training Bak Mei for a quite a while now on my right shoulder. It took me until last month to realise I had half a Yukon Gold of muscle more on my left latissimus dorsi than the right one and hardly any muscular activation on the latter.

I figured out that one main sources of stability in most BM movements is the lat since both upper and lower back expand and round to direct and generate power, so in a way you have to rely on the muscles pulling the scaps down for shoulder support. After starting to focus and train those muscles the shoulder issues have become less.

It's possible to engage the lats properly up to horizontal level, even higher is possible but then it's more of a hindrance than a benefit. Bong sau should have no issues.

P.S. They don't sell Yukon Gold where I'm from, so it's a rough guess. But we have the Lapland Fingerling, and they're the tastiest you can find.


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## KPM (Jul 16, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Okay. This I understand and can agree somewhat... it is because of the elbow positioning toward one's centerline that the lats engage and create the support.



Yep!  Firing the lats is going to help keep the shoulder firmly "in joint" and not let it become over-extended.  In more technical terms....firing the lats keeps the glenohumeral joint in a "closed packed" position...which is more stable and a stronger structure.  Many people tend to over-extend with their Bong Sau and end up with a weakened position as a result.


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## lansao (Jul 17, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Okay. This I understand and can agree somewhat... it is because of the elbow positioning toward one's centerline that the lats engage and create the support.


Here's our bong sao with a few single-arm dummy drills I just uploaded:

YouTube

~ Alan


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## lansao (Jul 17, 2018)

lansao said:


> Here's our bong sao with a few single-arm dummy drills I just uploaded:
> 
> YouTube
> 
> ~ Alan



That should be this:


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## Danny T (Jul 17, 2018)

lansao said:


> That should be this:


Interesting...thank you for sharing.
In the training I've gotten our bong is more of a forward screwing motion rather than a lifting of the elbow and is driven more by pressure either by the opponent or by our driving forward as contact is attained. Our bong can drive forward but is used more often as a redirection by yielding to the pressure.


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## lansao (Jul 17, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Interesting...thank you for sharing.
> In the training I've gotten our bong is more of a forward screwing motion rather than a lifting of the elbow and is driven more by pressure either by the opponent or by our driving forward as contact is attained. Our bong can drive forward but is used more often as a redirection by yielding to the pressure.


Sure thing. I notice bong sao applications vary a lot between lineages. We often practice using it for linear deflection and can yield to it from positions like tan sao, wu sao, etc. For example, one drill we practice is tan to bong. A partner just applies a little pressure to the wrist of our tan sao, and instead of fighting the pressure, we yield to bong sao. My si gung has even gone so far as to call bong an upside down tan sao. You can also think of it as behaving a lot like a boxer's shoulder roll but with the forearm as point of contact.

The angle of deflection can vary but the forearm typically lands along the "main diagonal" or 3d diagonal of a cube with one corner at the elbow and the opposite corner at the wrist. Doesn't require a lot of force to nudge the incoming strike off course but applying some force can hyper extend the incoming arm's elbow (especially if the punch rotates the elbow to the outside).

~ Alan


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## lansao (Jul 18, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Good drilling for a specific interception & counter attacking method to a point. Not fan of the stopping or pushing off and stepping back resetting directly in front of the attacker. But that's just me.
> 
> In your wc training are there other variables as to different striking combinations, entries, re-countering attacks by the opponent, clinching, takedowns and preventions that are done?
> Even with lower level students, if/when disengaging never be in the same place.


Hey Danny T, here's one of our linear flow drills applied to the dummy with a recapture.


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