# The Clinch



## traz (Apr 5, 2005)

hey all. I'm moving soon and will be going into JJJ. And I was curious, for all you JJJ practioners, does your training help you in the clinch? That's one of my weakest ranges. I realise that all schools/styles etc are different, but from your experiences, has JJJ helped you become a better clinch fighter?

Thanks!


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## redfang (Apr 5, 2005)

I've grappled with wrestlers, jujitsu guys, judo guys, and shootfighting guys. In my experience the wrestlers are best working from the clinch, closely followed by judo guys, then shootfighting and then finally jujitsu guys.  I don't wish to offend, but a lot of jujitsu trained folks I've rolled with have been pretty poor in the areas of takedowns and working from the clinch.  On the ground, they rock, but standing seems to leave something to be desired.  A few guys I've seen have been adept at hitting wrist locks and even locking an elbow from the clinch, but I don't know if this came from jujitsu training or judo as they were primarily judoka.


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## arnisador (Apr 5, 2005)

Yes, wrestling helps for the clinch, as does MMA. Some has been adapted for BJJ where I study it.


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## Gray Phoenix (Apr 8, 2005)

I wouldnt expect a JJJ school to focus too much on wrestling around on the floor. It comes down to why you feel you are weak in the clinch. I find it interesting that most people focus on the limitations of competition. Think "no rules" and a whole new world opens to you. I have had several BJJ practicioners try out my school. I've been in the clinch with a few of them. You should see the look on their faces when I attack eyes, ears throat etc... My goal is to end the fight as quickly as possible. Damage to my oppenent, be it temporary pain, or immediate death, is secondary to my own well being. 

If your question is with in the confines of a judges arena, disregard what I just said. Focus on body/spine misalignment. Offsetting the alignment of the skeletal structure weakens arm strength. movement at 45 degrees. Dont try to fight muscle. focus on techniques that ight fight ligaments and tendons.


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## traz (Apr 9, 2005)

Gray Phoenix said:
			
		

> I wouldnt expect a JJJ school to focus too much on wrestling around on the floor


Yes, but that's not the clinch 

I feel I"m personally weak in the clinch. I also feel that many violent altercations pass through the clinch phase, or even start within clinch range. Therefore, I want to at least improve my skills in that area, which is why I'm wondering if JJJ helps that area, even if a bit. 

I won't be doing BJJ or wrestling when I move, so while I appreciate the comments, I know that those arts are effective, but I wont' be doing them.


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## MJS (Apr 9, 2005)

I would think that you'd get your best clinch work from wrestling or BJJ.  I would think that JJJ would focus more on locks/controlling methods from a standing position or possibly brining the person to the ground to control them there.

Mike


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## arnisador (Apr 9, 2005)

Greco-Roman wrestling is a very good place for the clinch. Also Sambo. Most BJJ will train you in ity do, possibly borrowing from other arts.


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## Gray Phoenix (Apr 10, 2005)

> Yes, but that's not the clinch


I understand that, however, the clinch usually ends with one person getting swept by the other, then you have the rolling on the floor. The clinch is the result of a poorly executed takedown. I know because this is how I end up inthe clinch. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I'm getting better. (Eternal Newb)

My point is the same. Groin shots, face, pinches , presuure points. There are lots of ways out of the clinch, unless you are restricted by the rules of a ring. If rules intercede, then the clinch is a contest of strength and height.


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## Schtankybampo (Apr 11, 2005)

I end up in a clinch all the time. My grandma says that nice girls don't do that, but hey...<shrug>

Ok, so, for those of us *not* up on the slang/lingo of testosterone-laden activities, what, precisely, is "the clinch"? I can't give my *obviously* critical and intelligent opinion on your post until I'm sure I know what the hell you're talking about. 

My preliminary answer is, I think I pretty much try to avoid ending up there. And I agree with Grey. I'm not worried about legal targets, because I'm not in a competition. Eyes, ears, throats, groins...some squishy bit is getting gouged, ripped or crushed. I'm firmly of the opinion that no fight should be longer than 3 moves. Anything else, you're just playing with your food.

But someone explain this "clinch" to me. I love learning new words.


M


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## arnisador (Apr 11, 2005)

Standing up, holding each other almost like a hug. 

Well, that's how I'd describe it!


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## NotQuiteDead (Jun 22, 2005)

Clinching is just holding onto your opponent while both of you are still standing.


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## arnisador (Jun 23, 2005)

Well...yes, but there are many ways to do that.


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## NotQuiteDead (Jun 23, 2005)

> Well...yes, but there are many ways to do that.


 Yeah and all of them are a clinch. The clinch isn't a position, it's a phase of a fight.


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## arnisador (Jun 23, 2005)

A range, you mean? I think of it as any of several positions where you're standing and holding one another closely, but it amounts to much the same thing as what you say, in practice.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 23, 2005)

I'd not define it as a range...  it is, but I prefer to think of it as a movement strategy.

 When you are seperated you have a certain way of moving, might call it footwork   and regardless of what the other person is doing, whether you got a weapon or not, whether there is one or more, the same basic principles of how you move apply.  The strategy might differ, but the movements are the same.

 Same thing in a clinch, or when you are on the ground.

 But its not really the positions, positions are static and really useless in themselves.  What matters is the control, the transitions, the timing, etc.  Basically how you are supposed to be moving while there.


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## psi_radar (Jun 24, 2005)

At least in wrestling, the clinch is what I'd call the point of "strongest negotiations". Very nuanced moves followed by a strong technique can get you places fast. Combined with MMA moves, this is probably the most dynamic range, I think. It's important to remember that this is where you can best use deception to deliver very serious strikes and set up finishes. Pay a lot of attention to balance. While your opponent is working toward getting arm control, it's easy to let him lean into you and throw him off balance into a strike or a takedown with a little foot manuevering. Plus, if they get the sensation that they're about to fall, they'll naturally try to right their balance, leaving their centerline open for strikes, takedowns, throws, or other nastiness. Try hooking with the head straight down to the floor. Identify that moment when instinct takes over, where your opponent just wants to stand upright rather than defend themselves, and you've got some golden opportunities.


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## NotQuiteDead (Jun 24, 2005)

> A range, you mean?


 I don't use the term 'range' because it implies distance, and splitting up a fight into distances doesn't work (i.e. if I fight a taller opponent, I may be in 'kicking range' but since his arms are longer I could be in his 'punching range' at the same time). Splitting a fight into phases just makes more sense to me... free movement (standing, not holding on to eachother), clinch, and groundfighting. These 'phases' aren't determined by distance, but by what tools are available.


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## zujitsu (Jun 24, 2005)

It depends what kind of dojo it is...you need to make sure that all the teachers have their own specialities or at least are well versed in other arts. My dojo for example has one teacher that likes to weave muay thai and boxing into his jujitsu as well as focusing alot more(compared to the other teachers) on grappling and we even have a grappling class as well at my dojo.....just make sure the dojo that you choose has what you want and make sure the teachers are well versed in other arts as well. Thats my advice hope it helps.


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## ciondk (Jul 26, 2005)

Gray Phoenix said:
			
		

> You should see the look on their faces when I attack eyes, ears throat etc... My goal is to end the fight as quickly as possible. Damage to my oppenent, be it temporary pain, or immediate death, is secondary to my own well being.


As you say there are difference in situations, I think attacking eyes is a terribly dangerous idea when training. Training should be fun and safe, even if it is not "realistic", safety should be priority one. If you accidently blind someone during training, your training will be worth nothing in the real world for that person anyway. I see no real need to train things which put your health at risk every time you spar. But of course, every instructor has his own way.  

To get back to the subject:

I think judo and muay thai people are good in their seperate ways. Thai people generally have halfbad defenses against takedowns in the form of throws and locks because they have no reason to practice it, and vice versa. Wrestling as well has rules which prevent a "realistic" situation. For street defence I actually think thai is a bit ahead since punches and kicks are the realistic attacks. I would be surprised if some guy on the street grabbed me and tried to OsotoGari me.

In my oppinion though I think judo people have an edge over wrestlers since their takedowns usually lead to a good setup for submission, and (at least to my knowledge) submission in wrestling is nonexcistant. Wrestling pins are good, but provide no real defense against taking damage, where submissions give pain and usually control damage from an arm or leg. Judo people also have the benefit of having trained strangulations which are very effective on people who are not used to them.

To give the art I train a little praise:

The style of Jiu Jitsu I train is not a sport, and therefore purely selfdefense with all the dirty little tricks that comes with it. In our clinch we train locks and and throws as well, but in clinch we are "allowed" to strike as well as use whatever nervepoints available, as well as on the ground. It is a bit more effective and provides more oppertuneties compared to sportgrappling such as judo and wrestling.

My main point is that jiu jitsu is more general and broad, because it is not a sport, where the other styles focus more on single aspects of clinchfighting.


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## RichK (Jul 26, 2005)

First rule of getting out of a clinch is not getting yourself into one. That is what the comment about distance is, not size of opponents. If you find yourself in one than depending on sport or self defense is dependant on how to get out of it.


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## arnisador (Jul 27, 2005)

RichK said:
			
		

> First rule of getting out of a clinch is not getting yourself into one.


 Though, some people do like the clinch--that's their strategy. It can be a good place to be if you know how to use it.


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## Marvin (Jul 29, 2005)

Hi all, I look at the clinch as standing grappling or wrestling for position. If one is rolling with a good clincher it is very difficult to go straight to the "hug" (body lock). The first obstacle is the wrists, then the elbows then the under or over hook on the shoulder. Anyone who works in this area a lot i.e. freestyle or GR wrestlers are certainly not going let you go right for the body lock. As for the clinch being the result of a bad shoot, yes sometimes... But sometimes you may just want to work that range. It is a very good way to gas your opponent. And sometimes you just have to fight standing up, one of our guys was an all state wrestler, if he decides its going to be a stand up fight, its going to take a lot of clinch work to get him down to the mat 
As to working strikes on soft targets, that would mean you have at least one hand free and not controlling your partner's/ opponent's upper body. Unless you had an awesome underhook and could hold that position, having one arm free allows them to duck under your loose arm and work for a body lock, wizzer, takedown etc.
Marvin


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 10, 2005)

There is good book that address this quite a bit.  It's called Mastering JuJitsu by Renzo Gracie.  In it he describes his three phases of fighting rule and how one might use each one.  His three phases are (1) free-movement (stand-up striking), (2) the clinch, and (3) the ground.  He also uses noted MMA fighters as examples of how each phase can be used with great success in different ways dependig on the training of the person.

Examples:  
Free-Movement -- Chuck Lidell, Pedro Rizzo, Bas Rutten, Mirko Cro Cop
Clinch Phase -- Randy Couture (grappling clinch), Vanderlei Silva (striking clinch), Pedro Rizzo (clinch, break and counter)
Ground Phase -- Mark Coleman (ground-n-pound), "Minotauro" (Submission)

Definitely good reading just for different uses of the clinch alone but also for other stuff as well.  The clinch is an often overlooked yet crucial part of fighting to understand.  The philosophy of "don't go there if you don't want to be there" against someone skilled in grappling just doesn't cut it as it isn't always an option.  That's like facing a good striker and saying "just don't get hit if you don't want to".  If it were that easy most of the world's "self defense" systems wouldn't be in use today.


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## arnisador (Aug 16, 2005)

I agree--that's a good book. He outlines the "big picture" very well.


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## NotQuiteDead (Aug 24, 2005)

Mastering Jujitsu is a very good book, not much in the way of techniques but it helped me out a lot when I was just starting to train in mixed martial arts. I just don't understand why it's called "mastering jujitsu" when the book is mostly about mma. The history section is supposed to be one of the less biased accounts from a book by a Gracie as well.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 24, 2005)

NotQuiteDead said:
			
		

> Mastering Jujitsu is a very good book, not much in the way of techniques but it helped me out a lot when I was just starting to train in mixed martial arts. I just don't understand why it's called "mastering jujitsu" when the book is mostly about mma. The history section is supposed to be one of the less biased accounts from a book by a Gracie as well.


The book is entitled Mastering Ju Jitsu because it's about ju jitsu strategy. The main difference between the good and the not so good in ju jitsu is strategy and tactics. And the book is not really about MMA as much as it's about using Ju Jitsu in a real fight. MMA fighters are just used as examples of strategies because people can relate to that as most of this books readers have probably seen an MMA fight. Also alot of the moves (actually the vast majority of them) in the book are Sport Ju Jitsu/Submission Grappling moves and leave you open for very severe strikes. That's why the ground phase part of the book makes very little mention of striking.  It's just trying to show Ju Jitsu strategy in the simplest way possible and strikes complicate things immensely.


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