# 10th degree



## tshadowchaser

Anybody know how many people Mr. Parker promoted to 10th degree or maybe I should say how many he put his name on the certificate for their 10th?
And who they where?


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## shine

Do you mean of American Kenpo, or did you mean recognize the person as creating their own unique martial art?

In American Kenpo, Mr. Parker promoted a handful of people to 7'th Deg.  

I think he also promoted Elvis Presley to 8'th in the 70s.  I have never heard of any other promotion by him above 7'th in American Kenpo.

But who am I to know what Mr. Parker did, really? :asian:


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## Sanxiawuyi

Mr. Parker promoted no one to 10th.

:asian: 

The Kenpo Exchange


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## tshadowchaser

How many did he reconise as creating their own art?
If I'm correct Nick Cerio (sp) was promoted to grandmaster and Mr. Parkers was one of the people who promoted and agreed with this. I've heard there where others.
No disrespect to anyone ment.
Shadow


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## GouRonin

Ed Parker ranked no one to 10th. He gave some 7ths, an 8th to Elvis, and signed Nick Cerios certificate, but never gave him the rank. He just agreed.

Any of the 10th today have given themselves that rank or been given it through associations they run etc.

But then again, no one ranked Parker to 10th either.


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## tshadowchaser

Ok, Parker never Promoted anyone to 10th but did sign a few certificates. Now after his death I know there was a lot of internal conflict with more than a few people thing they should take over. Yes I know that his son now runs that segment of the Kempo family.
 Anyone have any idea how many branches where created at that te by people wanting to run things.
I had just finshed studying with Steve Spry Befor Mr. Parkers death and I know That steve now runs his own Organisation.
Its not my place to say if he deserves to be the head man in anything I just dont think a 3rd dan should jump to the top of the list.
I know there are others who did the same thing and its a shame (imo) that gread and  can distroy ansystem so easaly. I have seen it befor but it still bothers me
Shadow


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## GouRonin

Ed Parker Jr. doesn't run any organization. He will sell you manuals and stuff if you ask and his own artwork but he's basically an artist. He's been asked to run a lot of things and always declined.

However, I in no way shape or form speak for Ed Parker Jr. He does that for himself. 

I have spoken with Steve Spry and actually bought a lifetime membership in his organization back in the day. However I no longer train with/under his organization. He seemed like a nice guy when I spoke with him.

There are a ton of Kenpo guys out there. Every kenpo page has weblinks. I myself have a page, although I only list people I would suggest people check out. 

http://members.tripod.com/~kenpo_ronin/seminars.html

This page is by no means complete but a starting guide.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *its a shame (imo) that greed can destroy a system so easily. I have seen it before but it still bothers me*



...and you'll see it again.

"Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful ship, the passengers set sail that day, on a man's life long trip!

The weather started getting rough, the head of the system lost! If not for the courage of a few arnisadors, the arnis would be tossed.

The ship set ground on the shore of this unchartered desert isle, the passengers all jumped off the boat, yelling "I'm now the king" to the rank and file!"

In other words...Watch Modern Arnis. Now that Remy is gone they'll tear each other apart. Remy was the only one who held the can of whoop @ss big enough to hold it all together.


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## tshadowchaser

I stand corrected on Mr. ED Parker Jr. 
I was given bad information it seems.

Gou, if I may ask what year(s) did you study with Spry? just courious
 Shadow


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## Kirk

> In other words...Watch Modern Arnis. Now that Remy is gone they'll tear each other apart. Remy was the only one who held the can of whoop @ss big enough to hold it all together.




Isn't   Dan Inosanto a practitioner of Arnis?


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## Blindside

Hi Kirk,

Modern Arnis in this case refers to a particular style/system of Arnis.  

The terminology in the Fillipino MA's is more than somewhat confusing as instructors shift between calling their system escrima, arnis, or kali.  There is alot of history behind the different names and lots of different systems.  

Dan Inosanto has studied several styles of escrima/arnis/kali but not Modern Arnis (or if he did, not enough to be considered a high mucky muck in the Modern A hierarchy).

Just trying to clarify,

Lamont


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *Gou, if I may ask what year(s) did you study with Spry? just courious*



I didn't study with Steve Spry. I studied under a student of his, Mr. Jamie Seabrook. This was in 95/96.


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## tshadowchaser

Thanks Gou,
I was just wondering if we had been there in the same time period. I was there a few years earlyer. I sat on the promotion board  for his first student to test for Black. 
I was around just after he opened up on Beach Blvd. Befor the strip joint moved next door.I even remember when he was on LaPalma Blvd. befor he moved to Beach.but I didn't study with him at that time.
Any chance you ever met Neil Boneiface(sp)
sorry never could spell that name.


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## GouRonin

I'm in Canada. We have nothing but snow here. That and bears. But we have 2 kinds. Polar and every other kind.


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## Chiduce

There was one other promotion to 8th Degree Black Belt (Associate Master). This rank was awarded to the legendary Jay. T. Will  in which my kenpo lineage is traced back to GM Parker through is student Master Ed. Hutchison. Master Will was Master Hutchison's Instructor and just 1 of the 10,000 or more students of Master Will! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## GouRonin

That's news to me. I'm having a hard time believeing it. Jay T. Will is a great Martial Artists but I thought his 8th and so on came from Tracy's.


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## Sanxiawuyi

From The Ed Parker Family Tree, which was last revised 1982, Jay T Will is listed under the Al & Jim Tracy Family Tree.

Sanxiawuyi
:asian:


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## GouRonin

But I have spoken to many people who say that Tree is so politically motivated that it's not worth much.


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## Sanxiawuyi

Well, some may say that Tree is politically motivated and not worth much, but this tree is exactly as published by Ed Parker in 1982. 

Maybe, the only people who complain are the ones that claim they should have been on the tree (with no proof - or diplomas), and are not. Mr. Parker never changed the Tree.

:asian:


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## GouRonin

Or maybe there are those who are on the tree who were apologized to when they saw it before it was published. Those who might have been given the explanation that the politics were needed to keep the ship running smoothly.

The tree is the tree. Like it or not I suppose eh?

:shrug:


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## Sanxiawuyi

But if that Tree falls in the forest, and there is.... :rofl: 

By the way Gou, I like that symbol you use for your name with the charter for dog. Did you design that yourself? 

:asian:


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## GouRonin

Yeah. I designed that myself. There are only 7 people so far who are allowed to wear that symbol and 3 of them are deceased.


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *That's news to me. I'm having a hard time believeing it. Jay T. Will is a great Martial Artists but I thought his 8th and so on came from Tracy's. *


 Gou you are right about Jay T. Will defecting to the Tracy camp. But he redefected back to the Parker Camp because Parker was his best friend. They were in the Coast Guard and became one in the same. So, it was not until Master Will switched back to the Parker Camp that he was promoted to 8th Degree! Before he died, Master Will promoted only 2 Black belts to the rank of 6th Degree. Master Dave Harris was one of those Black Belts. In the American Kenpo promotion ranking system; one would have to promote 2 ranks under themselves. Master Harris is head of the United Kenpo Karate Association/UKKA , in which Grandmaster Will founded and directed. For more info; you can contact the UKKA at 2805 E. Oakland Blvd. PMB#223 Ft. Lauderdale, Fl 33306 USA , Phone # 945-941-8436, Fax# 945-941-3194! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## GouRonin

I'll contact them when I get a chance. Is there a non-partisian party that can confirm this?

Thanx.

I also should add that whatever is the case Jay. T Will is a hell of a martial artist.


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## Not Important

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> *There was one other promotion to 8th Degree Black Belt (Associate Master). This rank was awarded to the legendary Jay. T. Will  in which my kenpo lineage is traced back to GM Parker through is student Master Ed. Hutchison. Master Will was Master Hutchison's Instructor and just 1 of the 10,000 or more students of Master Will! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *



Alright I am really scared now!!!!

I remember Mr. Will, and all of the problems that he was associated with.

The truth is that Mr. Parker was at a test that Mr. Will was on the Board for as well, and another person decided that Mr. Will should be promoted and got Mr. Parker to sign the diploma that day.  He did not promote him directly at that time.  Mr. Will was from the Tracy Lineage, and then tried to convert to Mr. Parkers American Kenpo, and never did much as he got more wrapped up in the unfortunate actitivities.

Mr. Parkers main association with Mr. Will was that he appreciated Mr. Will's support of the International Karate Championships.


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## GouRonin

Am I correct in understanding that there were no degrees above 7th that were actually tested for?


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Not Important _
> *
> 
> Alright I am really scared now!!!!
> 
> I remember Mr. Will, and all of the problems that he was associated with.
> 
> The truth is that Mr. Parker was at a test that Mr. Will was on the Board for as well, and another person decided that Mr. Will should be promoted and got Mr. Parker to sign the diploma that day.  He did not promote him directly at that time.  Mr. Will was from the Tracy Lineage, and then tried to convert to Mr. Parkers American Kenpo, and never did much as he got more wrapped up in the unfortunate actitivities.
> 
> Mr. Parkers main association with Mr. Will was that he appreciated Mr. Will's support of the International Karate Championships. *


 Sir; I only have one question then. If you are right about Jay T. Will being of just the Tracy Lineage; then why does the Tracy Promotion List not include him even at the rank of Shodan, much less 7th Dan/Shichidan? This would lead one to assume that Jay T. Will was an Ed. Parker Black Belt.  Now, my instructor was on their black belt list for promotion to Sandan in 04/90.  Jay T. Will promotions are no where to be found because he was promoted by GM Parker! The reason why Jay T. Will is on the Tracy Lineage tree anyway is because the Tracy's were Master Will's Sempai at the Parker Camp. So, as Black Belt equivalents; the Tracy's were considered assistant instructors and took over classes when needed.  This gave them the right to say that Master Will was a student of theirs also! They even helped GM Parker name his American Kenpo Techniques! The real information is in my last post which includes the address and phone number of Master Dave Harris of the UKKA or United Kenpo Karate Association in which Master Will Promoted Him to 6th Dan.  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Am I correct in understanding that there were no degrees above 7th that were actually tested for? *


 Go, Not Important is not exactly right here. If he would have known  why the Tracy's claimed Jay T. Will in their lineage, then he would have known or said that the Tracy's were Master Will's Sempai in GM Parker's Dojo! My teacher, Master Ed. Hutchison is shown on the Tracy Promotion List, yet Master Will is not included on any of the Tracy's promotion lists, because they were Master Will's instructors at the Parker Dojo. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## GouRonin

Sadly, he disagrees with Jay T. Will being promoted to 8th by Ed Parker.

I have invited him here to explain. Hopefully he will soon.


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## GouRonin

Mr. Conatser asked me to print this.

_DCGoldendragon: I dont know where you received your information from but Jay T. Will definately did NOT get an 8th Degree from SGM Parker, for that matter Ed Hutchison left Mr. Parker many years and was never promoted by Ed Parker to a high rank of Black either._

His e-mail address is up there. Send him and e-mail if you choose to.


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## Blindside

Hi Chiduce,

If you get a copy of J.T. Will's "Advanced Kenpo Karate" you will see that the techniques are right out of the Tracy Curriculum.  There are obvious overlaps with the AK material, but the point is the naming structure is strictly Tracy.  If my memory serves the book was published in 1983, well after Mr. Parker had made the shift in technique nomenclature.  

Lamont


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## Not Important

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> * Go, Not Important is not exactly right here. If he would have known  why the Tracy's claimed Jay T. Will in their lineage, then he would have known or said that the Tracy's were Master Will's Sempai in GM Parker's Dojo! My teacher, Master Ed. Hutchison is shown on the Tracy Promotion List, yet Master Will is not included on any of the Tracy's promotion lists, because they were Master Will's instructors at the Parker Dojo. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *



O.K. I didn't want to go their, but if you all must know.

Having my last conversation with Al Tracy back in 97, and how his system of Kenpo has turned out so many greats, and he included the likes of : Jay T. Will, Keith Hackney (White Tiger, because of his UFC appearence), and a few others.

Not to pick on the Tracy's but they have been known to remove people from their lineage, like Mr. Wills counterpart Mr. Babcock, he is on the Mr. Parkers tree as well, under the Tracy's but has been missing on many (not all) of their lineage tree's.  Mr. Babcock was removed, because he was wanted for Flashing, and Mr. Will was left out because of his cocaine convictions, and a whole list of other charges that would remind you of John Gotti's trial.

sorry a sad witness to the events..............


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Not Important _
> *
> 
> O.K. I didn't want to go their, but if you all must know.
> 
> Having my last conversation with Al Tracy back in 97, and how his system of Kenpo has turned out so many greats, and he included the likes of : Jay T. Will, Keith Hackney (White Tiger, because of his UFC appearence), and a few others.
> 
> Not to pick on the Tracy's but they have been known to remove people from their lineage, like Mr. Wills counterpart Mr. Babcock, he is on the Mr. Parkers tree as well, under the Tracy's but has been missing on many (not all) of their lineage tree's.  Mr. Babcock was removed, because he was wanted for Flashing, and Mr. Will was left out because of his cocaine convictions, and a whole list of other charges that would remind you of John Gotti's trial.
> 
> sorry a sad witness to the events.............. *


 Sir; that would have some merit; but if you check out Tracy's explantation of James Ibrao and the Partker Days he does state that Jay T. Will was a Parker Black Belt. Even the rank of Shodan would trace him directly to the Parker Lineage. The reason why i say this is because Master Ed. Hutchison did not put the Tracy's in his Lineage Chart back to GM Parker. Though Al Tracy Promoted him to Sandan in April Of 1990. Yet, he did include Jay. T. Will and from Will directly to Parker.  Not, Will, Tracy. and then Parker!  Since Master Hutchison Founded the non-traditional no holds barred street combative of Dragon Kenpo; his technique names were right out of the Tracy lineage also! Defense Against A Choke From Behind, etc,. I personally do not think that Hutchison did not want to distance himself from the Tracy Lineage because of Master Will's cocaine convictions! I feel that it was just because that Jay T. Will was the proof , since he was a Parker Black Belt that he had a direct lineage to GM Parker. If you would please check out my previous post on this subject; the name, address, and phone number of Master Harris is posted. You can ask him why he was promoted by Master Will to 6th Dan and why he would put false information or mis-information about his direct Lineage to Grandmaster Ed. Parker and not through the Tracy Brothers! This is an excellent discussion on the lineage and rank of Parker and Tracy, as well as Parker/Tracy Black Belts.  Also, thank you sir for your information into the behind the scene lives of these contoversial martial arts legends! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## donald

To Whom It May Concern,
Why all the hullabaloo? Mr.Will was a talented martial artist, and kenpo senior. The mess and/or messes he got into later in life. Have no real bearing on who promoted who when, does it? As far as I can recollect from print etc.. Mr.Will was a legite blackbelt, and this was attested to by both Mr.Parker, and the Tracy camp. I don't understand what the original beef was regarding all this?


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *To Whom It May Concern,
> Why all the hullabaloo? Mr.Will was a talented martial artist, and kenpo senior. The mess and/or messes he got into later in life. Have no real bearing on who promoted who when, does it? As far as I can recollect from print etc.. Mr.Will was a legite blackbelt, and this was attested to by both Mr.Parker, and the Tracy camp. I don't understand what the original beef was regarding all this?  *


 Sir, we are not beefing about anything! I 'am in the direct lineage of both Master Will and the Tracy Brother Masters to Ed. Parker! Master Will taught my instructor, Master Hutchison whom in turn taught myself and others, etc,.! Thus, this information which was given on this forum is not a heated argument about who, is a bad martial artist and who is not! It is just an honorable discussion on the information which we all have received over a said period of time in our learning process. Why would i down my own lineage, for personal, martial or any other reasons? I'am happy to be openminded enough to absorb these previous posts without bias toward any. I 'am very happy to be a part of both lineages, because i can now trace my lineage to Yoshida also. I honor the Tracy's for their historic work on the martial arts and continued efforts to bring the truth to light concerning both lineages and the Yoshida Mitose Clan!  I hope this gives you another view of the origin/s of modern kenpo! Sincerely; In Humility; Chiduce!


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> * Sir, we are not beefing about anything! I 'am in the direct lineage of both Master Will and the Tracy Brother Masters to Ed. Parker! Master Will taught my instructor, Master Hutchison whom in turn taught myself and others, etc,.!*



I suppose you ought to throw me in there too. I have a certificate from Ed Hutchinson's Dragon Kenpo AKA "Karate For Outlaws" not only certifying me as a black belt from them but a seperate one that certifies me as a teacher of their system.

I got it for buying 2 CD's with video of their techniques. 

Ed Hutchinson also SOLD his rank and leadership of Dragon Kenpo via e-bay if I remember correctly. if I'd had any extra cash that would have made me the leader of the system.




> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> *I 'am very happy to be a part of both lineages, because i can now trace my lineage to Yoshida also. I honor the Tracy's for their historic work on the martial arts and continued efforts to bring the truth to light concerning both lineages and the Yoshida Mitose Clan!  I hope this gives you another view of the origin/s of modern kenpo! Sincerely; In Humility; Chiduce! *



The lineage of modern Kenpo is being re-written as we speak. To each their own I say. Don't ask me to believe it all though...
:shrug:


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *
> 
> The lineage of modern Kenpo is being re-written as we speak. To each their own I say. Don't ask me to believe it all though...
> :shrug: *


 Go i agree, with enough money you probably would have bought the name of the system online! Yet the DKKA is no more and that in a sad way is good for the kenpo community today. Ed Hutchison is believed to have taught as many as 10,000 students also! Dragon Kenpo is now under a new age of development and rehabilitation. We are now headed by an 8th Degree Black Belt in Hutchison's Dragon Kenpo Karate and 10th Degree Black Belt in Hap Ki Mu Sul. The International Dragon Kenpo Association has members world wide and even re-certifies and verifies the old DKKA Certifications. There are now three types of memberships; Full Member; Associate Member; and Student Member! There are as many different styles of Hutchison Dragon Kenpo as it's current member schools and clubs! There also is video testing thru 4th Dan and after this ranking there is sweat time and contribution to the martial community and arts time before testing can occur beyond 4th Dan! Dragon Kenpo today is in collaboration with the World Sokeship Council,  Various Independant Martial Arts Associations And Federations; And New System Certification Associations! The IDKA members range from the average practitioner to Martial Arts Hall Of Fame Inductees. We are growing in the positive! Yes, the lineage of modern kenpo is being rewritten and so is the case with the Self Defense Science Of Dragon Kenpo Karate! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## donald

Chiduce,
What is Dragon Kenpo? I remember the ads in Blackbelt, but never really checked it out. If I understand G.R.'s post regarding this correctly, the system, or Association was a sham? Your post sounded like you agreed with that assesment in past tence, but now they have overhauled their Association practices? Who is this person/persons who has taken over from Mr.Hutchison? Do they trace their kenpo to the Parker/Tracy tree? Just asking out of curiosity, no agenda okay!?
Salute in Christ,
Donald


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *Chiduce,
> What is Dragon Kenpo? I remember the ads in Blackbelt, but never really checked it out. If I understand G.R.'s post regarding this correctly, the system, or Association was a sham? Your post sounded like you agreed with that assesment in past tence, but now they have overhauled their Association practices? Who is this person/persons who has taken over from Mr.Hutchison? Do they trace their kenpo to the Parker/Tracy tree? Just asking out of curiosity, no agenda okay!?
> Salute in Christ,
> Donald   *


 Sir, Dragon Kenpo was never a sham. Master Ed. Hutchison was indeed taught by Master Jay.T. Will and Founded the Dragon Kenpo Karate System. The head of the system now is Grandmaster Rodney Lacey! Master Lacey was the only DK practitioner to attain the rank of 8th Dan/Hachidan to my knowledge, which was conferred by Master Ed. Hutchison! Master Lacey is also a 10th Dan/Judan in the martial art of Hap Ki Mu Sul in which he founded. Master Lacey's  Hap Ki Mu Sul  Certified By The World Sokeship Council and he is recognized by this same council as an 8th Dan Dragon Kenpo Karate! Master Hutchison taught several Sokes and 10th Dans the Dragon Kenpo System. One of which is Soke Giovani Acevedo of the renowned International Goju Kempo Federation University Of Martial Arts.  Master Lacey is the Director Of Operations Of The International Dragon Kenpo Association! I'am also on the Board Of Directors of the IDKA and hold the position of Secretary. Master Lacey is the Headmaster Of the Defensive Arts Academy, the Url is http://www.geocities.com/defensive_arts_academy       and my Url/s are http://www.chiduce.swsites.net    and http://maxpages.com/butokutsururyu    The other pages can be foud on either of these sites. Take a look at Dragon Kenpo's Different looks on my favorite links page! The sham thing was never true, yet Master Hutchison  had some questionable practices in regard to awarding rank! To tell you the truth; some how by Gods Grace And Mercy; it all worked out just fine! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *Chiduce,
> What is Dragon Kenpo? I remember the ads in Blackbelt, but never really checked it out. If I understand G.R.'s post regarding this correctly, the system, or Association was a sham? Your post sounded like you agreed with that assesment in past tence, but now they have overhauled their Association practices? Who is this person/persons who has taken over from Mr.Hutchison? Do they trace their kenpo to the Parker/Tracy tree? Just asking out of curiosity, no agenda okay!?
> Salute in Christ,
> Donald   *


 Yes sir, our lineage has been verified through Grandmaster Jay. T. Will to Grand Master Ed. Parker And Grandmasters, Tracy Brothers.  The lineage was confirmed by Grandmaster Al Tracy. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *Chiduce,
> What is Dragon Kenpo? I remember the ads in Blackbelt, but never really checked it out. If I understand G.R.'s post regarding this correctly, the system, or Association was a sham? Your post sounded like you agreed with that assesment in past tence, but now they have overhauled their Association practices? Who is this person/persons who has taken over from Mr.Hutchison? Do they trace their kenpo to the Parker/Tracy tree? Just asking out of curiosity, no agenda okay!?
> Salute in Christ,
> Donald   *


 Donald, if you would also go to the Yahoo Dragon Kenpo Forum; you will find that a New DK Curriculum will be started at Liberty University or Jerry Faldwell's School very soon! One of the P.E. Professors is an Ed. Hutchison Black Belt and his website is posted on the forum! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## GouRonin

The new Dragon Kenpo has more respectability than the previous association.


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *The new Dragon Kenpo has more respectability than the previous association. *


 Yes, sir it does and we had to fight like heck for it! Yet, it was well worth the fight! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## warriorsage

Curious: What is the current rank of Ed Hutchinson? I thought he was a grandmaster, but I don't want to assume that blindly. I ask this because I found it out that he was promoted to 3rd in 1990 and is now (or was a few years ago) so highly ranked. This is not a slam of EH, or his skills or his students,  and I am sincerely interested in an answer, so please try not to assume that I mean any offense to Dragon Kenpo people.


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## warriorsage

I wrote: >>I found it out that he was promoted to 3rd in 1990 and is now (or was a few years ago) so highly ranked.

That should have read, "I found it ODD that he was promoted..."

Sorry for the typo


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by warriorsage _
> *I wrote: >>I found it out that he was promoted to 3rd in 1990 and is now (or was a few years ago) so highly ranked.
> 
> That should have read, "I found it ODD that he was promoted..."
> 
> Sorry for the typo *


 Sir, when you or anyone found a new martial arts system and apply for your system to be certified. There is a promotion when your system is accepted by the certifying body to 4th Dan /Yondan/Yodan. After this phase is complete, you can apply for a lineage trace or further certification by a higher governing body than the previous one, At least this is the way that most new system founders started. Next is the higher body verification of your current rank in your new system and the lineage trace. If the lineage trace is good then the search for verification of at least shodan ranking in another system done! If you cannot verify the last condition, the higher governing will assign you to the new Master training program; in which you will be assigned to one of the governing body Grang Masters for instruction. Upon completion of the Grandmaster's program you will have met that last requirement! You will then be awarded the title of Shodai Soke and rank of 10th Degree. Now this is the catch; once your new system has been certified by the 1st governing body and you are awarded the rank of 4th Dan; you can promote in your system as high as you see fit. Thus, even though you are ranked as at 4th Dan and are the founder of a new certified martial art system; as long as you do not proclaim yourself the title of Soke, then you can promote in your new system as high as you wish. this is because you can still get your system certified by a higher governing body! Now there is also middle ground certification by the higher body or another certifying body which is not as high as the soke council but is recognized by the council as an official certifying body! There is one requirement which i left out and that is the higher body will require you to be at least 5th Dan. so, the 4th Dan is considered a 5th Dan equivalent for the system new system creation and can send in to the middle certifying body a video tape of the new system along with other set requirements and be promoted 1 rank higher to 5th Dan for this middle higher certification! Still as long as the founder does not self proclaim him/herself as a Soke they can promote within their system as high as they want. So, the rank of 4th Dan and 5th Dan Master or Headmaster Of The New Ryu and/or Ryuha exists! This, is actually how the certification works! I'am also founder of a new martial street combative called Butokutsuru Ryu Kenpojutsu or translated as the  ( Virtuous Crane's Law Of The Dragons' Fist ) the Dragon here represents only all wisdom within the Crane's Law Of The Fist, as following the Way of  Butoku, and Busan. Anyway most new system founders only like to be addressed as either 4th or 5th Dan and not Master; which is also my case!  I hope this sheds some light on your question! Remember, this certification process applies to all new system founders regardless of style with one exception; the New Inheritor Of A System after the original Headmaster has either stepped down or dies! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## GouRonin

But really it only applied if you decide to go by some council's will and their determinations.

Personally, I think Ed Parker did it best. He went out and proved what he was doing and let others choose to follow.

Not to demean what you are doing, it's just not for me to follow.


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *But really it only applied if you decide to go by some council's will and their determinations.
> 
> Personally, I think Ed Parker did it best. He went out and proved what he was doing and let others choose to follow.
> 
> Not to demean what you are doing, it's just not for me to follow. *


 You are not demeaning anything to me or my organization. We are world wide now and continuing to grow and contribute to the martial arts community! As with any good thing the basis is on attraction rather than promotion!  I do not make the rules for the martial arts community; yet as a practitioner i 'am inclined to follow those rules which would benefit the community at large! If it was not for GM Ed. Parker, which i never had the pleasure of meeting, i would not be continuing my martial arts studies to this day! It, took some 3,4,5, and some even 10 years to obtain the 1st Degree Black Belt, and others even longer! I'am proud to say even longer myself. So, i know when, and how to study the martial way which works for myself and those like me to benefit the community as a whole! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Goldendragon7

Chudice, I posted earlier on that Jay T. Will NEVER was promoted to 8th degree by Ed Parker personally. and received no response.   I would like to see the certificate and verify the number on it to validate your claim.

It is a well known fact that Mr. Parker didn't promote "anyone" to higher than 7th Degree.  (Elvis, Cerio, and Griffith were crossover or honorary issues).

Many of these men are well known Seniors in Kenpo i.e., Dave Hebler, Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo, Bob White, Frank Trejo, Larry Tatum, Ron Chap'el, Chuck Sullivan, John Conway (D), and Arturo Petit (D).  These were the legitimate promotions under Ed Parker directly.........  do any of these remember Jay T. Will being added to the list....... no.

I find it interesting that 11 years later some try to rewrite history and attempt to incorrectly insert individuals into the linage.


----------



## arnisador

Did Mr. Parker consider himself a 10th degree black belt or did he only take the title SGM ("above and beyond rank" as they say)?

What was his rank in kosho-ryu?


----------



## tshadowchaser

I only had the privledge of speaking with Mr. Parker two times but from my very short conversations (only a few minutes each) I had the impression that he accepted the title  rather than thinking of himslef as 10th. 
My impression was of a man who was very happy with his "children "those being the students, and with the way his art had grown. I did not sence someone who goes around saying " i'm a 10th degree" rather  a man who gave of himslef to better the art he loved. 
Again this is only my opion based on two very short meetings. He was kind enough to speak with me when he had never seen me befor and to exchange words of encouragement I shall always remember those meetings and the man.
Shadow


----------



## Klondike93

I was talking to a kenpo instructor about rank one day, and was told the following.
Mr Parker was known as GM holding 10th degree and there would be no other 10th as that was his title and rank as founder of the system.
When he died, others in the system wanted to be promoted to 10th but couldn't because he held the rank. Thus SGM was created to elevate Mr. Parker above all others and yet let them be 10th degrees now. Don't know if it's true or not but it kind of makes sense. Till they made him SGM no high ranking black belt wanted to be a 10th.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

"Did Mr. Parker consider himself a 10th degree black belt or did he only take the title SGM ("above and beyond rank" as they say)?"

The Shadowchaser pretty much hit it.  Mr. Parker never claimed any titles but they are essential when dealing with a large International group.  He is the one and only Founder of American Kenpo...... his System, all others are  spin offs or one of many of the "Ed Parker Kenpo Systems" we have today.

"What was his rank in kosho-ryu?"  Ed Parker had no rank in Kosho-ryu - that is not his Art and had nothing to do with it.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *"What was his rank in kosho-ryu?"  Ed Parker had no rank in Kosho-ryu - that is not his Art and had nothing to do with it. *



I must have misunderstood--wasn't this one of the arts he put into his kenpo?


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Chudice, I posted earlier on that Jay T. Will NEVER was promoted to 8th degree by Ed Parker personally. and received no response.   I would like to see the certificate and verify the number on it to validate your claim.
> 
> It is a well known fact that Mr. Parker didn't promote "anyone" to higher than 7th Degree.  (Elvis, Cerio, and Griffith were crossover or honorary issues).
> 
> Many of these men are well known Seniors in Kenpo i.e., Dave Hebler, Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo, Bob White, Frank Trejo, Larry Tatum, Ron Chap'el, Chuck Sullivan, John Conway (D), and Arturo Petit (D).  These were the legitimate promotions under Ed Parker directly.........  do any of these remember Jay T. Will being added to the list....... no.
> 
> I find it interesting that 11 years later some try to rewrite history and attempt to incorrectly insert individuals into the linage. *


 Go to the UKKA Website where  Master Dave Harris Dave Harris  has become the Director of Grand Master Will's Organization: This is where i got my information from and Master Harris is supposed to be one of only 2 Black Belts promoted to Rokudan. The # is (954) 941-8436 or fax (954) 941-3194. You can also inquire to his family about his 8th Dan  certificate. There was also another post on this forum 10th Degree about GM Parker and Master Will being on the same testing board, and another master on the same board talking with GM Parker about promoting Master Will to 8th Degree. That day Master Parker is said to have signed the 8th Dan Certificate at the testing for another black belt. This information came from the historian! I will give you his name in the next post! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Chudice, I posted earlier on that Jay T. Will NEVER was promoted to 8th degree by Ed Parker personally. and received no response.   I would like to see the certificate and verify the number on it to validate your claim.
> 
> It is a well known fact that Mr. Parker didn't promote "anyone" to higher than 7th Degree.  (Elvis, Cerio, and Griffith were crossover or honorary issues).
> 
> Many of these men are well known Seniors in Kenpo i.e., Dave Hebler, Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo, Bob White, Frank Trejo, Larry Tatum, Ron Chap'el, Chuck Sullivan, John Conway (D), and Arturo Petit (D).  These were the legitimate promotions under Ed Parker directly.........  do any of these remember Jay T. Will being added to the list....... no.
> 
> I find it interesting that 11 years later some try to rewrite history and attempt to incorrectly insert individuals into the linage. *


 The historian is Sanxiawuyi; is post may have been on another subject though, yet this is what he said! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Goldendragon7

Anyone can post whatever they want....... I was there.  Again, if you have an IKKA certificate and certificate number to verify your claims then show me.  

Mr. Parker sat on a number of boards for promotions as a guest.  That does not mean that he was a personal student...... if he was then he would have been promoted directly by Ed Parker himself and given an IKKA certificate (which I have not seen produced as of yet).  If he did in fact sit on a board where the group decided to promote Jay to 8th then fine, but he was not a direct student above all those that were proven and known personal students (not secret) as I listed prior.  If he were a direct student of Ed Parker we would have been glad to add him to the list of Seniors, as it were he was NOT.  If Ed Parker would have promoted him to 8th EVERYONE would know of it not just your group.  Need I say more.

What "family" are you suggesting I ask........... Jay T. Wills?  If that is the case that would prove nothing.

I'm sorry to press this issue but I just do not like the propagation of false information.  There are too many of us out there still alive that know the truth and we must stand  or rumor will soon become fact.


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Chudice, I posted earlier on that Jay T. Will NEVER was promoted to 8th degree by Ed Parker personally. and received no response.   I would like to see the certificate and verify the number on it to validate your claim.
> 
> It is a well known fact that Mr. Parker didn't promote "anyone" to higher than 7th Degree.  (Elvis, Cerio, and Griffith were crossover or honorary issues).
> 
> Many of these men are well known Seniors in Kenpo i.e., Dave Hebler, Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo, Bob White, Frank Trejo, Larry Tatum, Ron Chap'el, Chuck Sullivan, John Conway (D), and Arturo Petit (D).  These were the legitimate promotions under Ed Parker directly.........  do any of these remember Jay T. Will being added to the list....... no.
> 
> I find it interesting that 11 years later some try to rewrite history and attempt to incorrectly insert individuals into the linage. *


 Sir, first lets get this straight; i'am learning new things everday! To my understanding the head of Master Will's UKKA at the present was telling the truth about his master! I have already made martial art's history myself and did not want too. Yet that is another subject! I'am trying to become a martial historian in time and make my own contribution. I definitely, would not like to rewrite someone else's history! I have enough trouble at the present having to promote my own system and have as it documented history! I became interested in the Martial Way because of just seeing people like GM Parker in a balancing side kick. I use the AK equation formula and 3 phase conceptuality in the other system which i'am teaching. So, i'am not trying to do anthing but understand the truth about Master Will. Personally, i think that was a shot below the belt! Yet, the street has no rules, neither do i! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Goldendragon7

Well if you intend to be a true and correct historian in Kenpo then you need to research the facts and not just rely on one site. 

I have nothing against Jay T. Will or his organization or heirs.  I do have a problem when people do not tell it like it was.  A fine martial artist (particulairly fighter) he was....... however, when you do time for selling cocaine out of your studio, that hurts all the martial arts and in particular the person we are talking about, so to glorify him now years later is not right.  Yes, he was a fine competitor but lets not get carried away with whom he studied and give ranks out to him above and beyond Ed Parkers most personal and highest ranking students.   Thats it.  The truth is the truth.

What "Martial Arts history" did you make anyway, just curious.

Not trying to be a shot below the belt just the truth on a topic you brought up pal. :asian:


----------



## WilliamTLear

I've known Dennis Conatser for a long time, and he WAS a personal student of Mr. Parker's. I am currently a student of Frank Trejo (Whom ran Mr. Parker's Pasadena Studio for approx. 15 years before Mr. Parker Passed, and teaches there to THIS day).

According to both of these men (as well as many of the other 9th and 10th degree black belt's that I know in todays kenpo world) nobody earned a rank above 7th degree black from Ed Parker. This my friend is the cold hard truth. If you have been told otherwise... you have been lied to.


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I've known Dennis Conatser for a long time, and he WAS a personal student of Mr. Parker's. I am currently a student of Frank Trejo (Whom ran Mr. Parker's Pasadena Studio for approx. 15 years before Mr. Parker Passed, and teaches there to THIS day).
> 
> According to both of these men (as well as many of the other 9th and 10th degree black belt's that I know in todays kenpo world) nobody earned a rank above 7th degree black from Ed Parker. This my friend is the cold hard truth. If you have been told otherwise... you have been lied to. *


 Sir, I still will not believe what you and other's are saying until i'am satisfied with my own search about Master Will's rank! I know there is a lot of misinformation out there! Though, i do have a question? Why would Sanxiawuyi know about the testing board and GM Parker signing Master Will's 8th Dan certificate? What you are saying is that there is absolutely no truth to this historian's statement? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## GouRonin

...and correct me if I am wrong...

That Jay T. Will may have a signed 8th certificate from some system that might have Mr. Parker's signature on it but Mr. Parker did not grade Mr. Will to 8th. He was merely there to watch someone else grade him and sifned as a witness perhaps?


----------



## donald

Arnisador,
In an attempt to answer your question strictly from a historical perspective. Although you could say that the roots of Parker System Kenpo go back to the Kosho-Ryu. It can only be said because of the Mitose, Chow, Parker connections. Mr.Parker was
( if I have my facts straight) given some type of promotion by Mr.Mitose, but Mr.Parker never to my recollection acknowledged it. By that I mean, never promoted it, never used it in any fashion. Simply because he was never a STUDENT of Mr.Mitose's, and the kenpo Mr.Parker taught was not what Mr.Mitose demonstrated, or propigated. Therefore Mr.Parker did not lay claim to ANY ranking that originated from the Kosho-Ryu. I believe I have laid out the basic facts. Can/do any of the P.S.K. seniors on this forum agree/disagree with what I've posted? I would be very interested to hear...
Salute in Christ,
Donald


----------



## Goldendragon7

Yes Donald I agree with most of what  you said, the part of Mitose promoting Ed Parker tho I have to disagree with.  All his early promotions came from Chow.   He only claimed Chow as his early instructor in Kenpo after the intro from his brother Frank.

He did not utilize or like any of Mitose's system.  He was not comfortable with his attitude or conviction.  He always distanced himself from this person.

His academic achievement and personal drive led to the creation of his own unique American Kenpo system, which was way ahead of its time back then.  Today many studios are moving to the type of movement and logic we have used for many years now.


----------



## Goldendragon7

yes, Gou......

You are correct in your thoughts...... (why can't others deduct this)?


As to Chiduce,

I don't care if you  believe what I'm saying or not.  I know its the truth.   I do respect your position ~ do your research and you will find out that what I say is correct.  No Mallace intended, just facts.

I also am not challenging/validating Sanxiawuyi's claim either..... I was not there.....  but if in fact the claim is true ..... that does not constitute people claiming Ed Parker PROMOTED him...... he meerely witnessed the promotion.  Once again..... produce an official IKKA Numbered Certificate with Jay T. Will as an 8th.:asian:


----------



## Sanxiawuyi

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> * The historian is Sanxiawuyi; is post may have been on another subject though, yet this is what he said! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *



I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I have never posted about any of these things, ecept for saying Jat T Will is under the Tracy Tree. 

What claims do you think I made?

Sanxiawuyi


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *yes, Gou......You are correct in your thoughts...... (why can't others deduct this?)*



Because I'm a frickin' genious. I'm brilliant. I'm smart. Learned. Full of wisdom. Deep in thought. Shall I go on?
:cuss:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *His academic achievement and personal drive led to the creation of his own unique American Kenpo system*



Thanks donald and Goldendragon7. Can someone give a non-kenpo person a brief list of what art(s) went into Mr. Parker's kenpo?


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## GouRonin

Parker added as he went along. If he liked it it went in. The list would be very long. Plus he used his students like an experiment to help him add.


----------



## Sanxiawuyi

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I also am not challenging/validating Sanxiawuyi's claim either..... I was not there.....  but if in fact the claim is true ..... that does not constitute people claiming Ed Parker PROMOTED him...... he meerely witnessed the promotion.  *



Again,.... what claims did I Supposedly make?

Sanxiawuyi


----------



## meni

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> * Sir, I still will not believe what you and other's are saying until i'am satisfied with my own search about Master Will's rank! I know there is a lot of misinformation out there! Though, i do have a question? Why would Sanxiawuyi know about the testing board and GM Parker signing Master Will's 8th Dan certificate? What you are saying is that there is absolutely no truth to this historian's statement? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *


 

So  sorry but I also have to second that of WilliamTLear 
As I heard and inquire for another student of EP that EP never promoted anybody above the Seventh Degree.
With all the respect.

M


----------



## Sanxiawuyi

> _Originally posted by Chiduce_
> *
> 
> 
> Though, i do have a question? Why would Sanxiawuyi know about the testing board and GM Parker signing Master Will's 8th Dan certificate?*



What are you talking about!! I have know idea what you guys are talking about. I didn't say any of these things!

Did I miss something!!??

Sanxiawuyi
:soapbox:


----------



## Klondike93

> What are you talking about!! I have know idea what you guys are talking about. I didn't say any of these things!



They think that you have seen a certificate of Jay T Wills with Mr Parker's signature on it promoting him to 8th.

my 2 cents:  Mr Will's name shows up on the Tracy's tree at 8th so I would be led to believe that he was promoted by the Tracy's not Mr Parker.
In my talks with other kenpo black belts they too believe that Mr Parker never promoted anyone past 7th, except for Elvis.

Interesting discussion so far, but some seem to be taking it personal now. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7

LOL......... well I'll be......... 

I guess we have revealed the first one of Chiduce's claims to be totally FALSE! 
lol 




As to answer Arnisador...... There were no "Arts" that Ed Parker put into American Kenpo other than his early training with Professor Chow and HUGE amounts of LOGIC.  

That's why it is uniquely his system, not a combination of others.  Of course he had much input from many different individuals but no specific Systems.


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *...and correct me if I am wrong...
> 
> That Jay T. Will may have a signed 8th certificate from some system that might have Mr. Parker's signature on it but Mr. Parker did not grade Mr. Will to 8th. He was merely there to watch someone else grade him and sifned as a witness perhaps? *


 What i read on this forum was that GM Parker and Jay T. Will were on the same testing board ( along with others) testing someone else! That is when one of the other testers which knew GM Parker arked him to promote Master Will  to 8th Dan also that day. Parker agreed and signed Will's certificate at that testing along with promoting the original practitioner that day! Now personally, it sounded too crazy not to have some merit! Though, there is still the question of who was being promoted originally and who was the board member that talked to GM Parker about promoting Master Will to 8th Dan. This post was made by Sanxiawuyi. Since he is a martial historian i assumed he has a reliable source from which this information was extracted! Though, it could be just speculation. Of course i would think that he would not have posted this statement without some type of reliability! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Sanxiawuyi

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> *  This post was made by Sanxiawuyi. Since he is a martial historian i assumed he has a reliable source from which this information was extracted! Though, it could be just speculation. Of course i would think that he would not have posted this statement without some type of reliability! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *



SHOW ME WHERE I POSTED THIS!!
I have no idea what you are talking about, I never made a post like that, and further more I know nothing about Jay T Will.

My original post was Mr. Parker promoted no one to 10th. 

Your have your sources wrong.

With respect,
Sanxiawuyi
:angry:


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi _
> *
> 
> SHOW ME WHERE I POSTED THIS!!
> I have no idea what you are talking about, I never made a post like that, and further more I know nothing about Jay T Will.
> 
> My original post was Mr. Parker promoted no one to 10th.
> 
> Your have your sources wrong.
> 
> With respect,
> Sanxiawuyi
> :angry: *


 Yeah, i can see that now! I admit that i'am wrong. I have been searching the other posts myself and i made a mistake! It was posted though by someone, not unless i'am getting wall eyed vision.  So, i humbly apologize for my mistake of including you forum name in my post!  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Sanxiawuyi

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> * Yeah, i can see that now! I admit that i'am wrong. I have been searching the other posts myself and i made a mistake! It was posted though by someone, not unless i'am getting wall eyed vision.  So, i humbly apologize for my mistake of including you forum name in my post!  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *



Thank you for the apology. I dont know a great deal about the more recent history of Westernized Kenpo, most of my research has been with earlier history, and my academic background is in East Asian history and philosophy, predominantly methodologies, and theories necessary for the study of the history of China, and Japan.

Sanxiawuyi
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Yes, thank you both for letting the truth shine forth.  No malice towards anyone just please research the facts first.  

It is very easy to mix up facts  so be sure to have your ducks in a row when you make a statement otherwise someone may ask you to back up what you post.

Chiduce I have been involved in the Martial Arts way to long to tarnish my reputation.  I would not lead you down a path of lies.  That you can take to the bank.  I however, have been wrong at times as well and it takes a credible man to admit his mistake.  Kudos to you!:asian:


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Yes, thank you both for letting the truth shine forth.  No malice towards anyone just please research the facts first.
> 
> It is very easy to mix up facts  so be sure to have your ducks in a row when you make a statement otherwise someone may ask you to back up what you post.
> 
> Chiduce I have been involved in the Martial Arts way to long to tarnish my reputation.  I would not lead you down a path of lies.  That you can take to the bank.  I however, have been wrong at times as well and it takes a credible man to admit his mistake.  Kudos to you!:asian: *


 Thank you very much sir! Sincerely, In Humility; chiduce!


----------



## donald

Originally posted by Goldendragon7 
*Yes Donald I agree with most of what  you said, the part of Mitose promoting Ed Parker tho I have to disagree with.  All his early promotions came from Chow.   He only claimed Chow as his early instructor in Kenpo after the intro from his brother Frank.

Sir,
This phantom promotion that I refer to. Was'nt really a promotion, as in testing, board of peers, etc.. My understanding is that Mr.Mitose attempted to "bestow" a ranking on Mr.Parker. This was supposed to have happened after Mr.Parker had established himself in California. I can't recall the source of this info. Except to say, I know I did'nt just pull this out of the air. It may of been an interview through a magazine? I am sure that there has to be a  P.K.S. senior out in cyberspace, who knows of what I refer? At least I hope I have'nt gone roun tha bend!!!!
Salute in Christ,
Donald  :asian:*


----------



## Goldendragon7

Well Donald, I would agree with the idea that Mitose may have "attempted" to give Ed Parker some sort of promotion.... but Ed Parker never accecpted any such document.


----------



## Turner

In case anyone is still curious, Jay T Will was promoted to 8th Dan on 05/08/90 by Al Tracy. His certificate number was -B-802-


----------



## Goldendragon7

Thank You, Turner

:asian:


----------



## Turner

In rereading the thread I realize that someone already said that, sorry for being redundant.

I love the signature block, GD7


----------



## Goldendragon7

:asian:


----------



## Rob_Broad

When I grow up I want to be a 10th degree, but only if I can have tons of people saying they love what I am doing to my face and stabbing me in the back later.  Yep that sounds like fun to me.


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Thank You, Turner
> 
> :asian: *


 I also chatted with Grandmaster Al Tracy via e-mail and Master Will's 8th Degree was not conferred in American Kenpo; but Traditional Kenpo! I can send you the e-mail if you like! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Goldendragon7

That's what I have been saying all along.

:asian:


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *That's what I have been saying all along.
> 
> :asian: *


 Yes, and i see that now! The mis-information that i was receiving at the time really screwed my lineage understanding up! Since i trainded in matsumura orthodox shorin-ryu karade-do. We had our own kenpo system. This is what intrigued me to seek out the true lineage of my kenpo system. I give out kenpo lineage charts to my students to give them some understanding of where there system starts and some idea where they are going as they progress to the higher ranks.  This information if it is correct, can be passed on the their students.  So Master Conaster; i want to thank you for setting the record straight for my lineage information! My charts will be changed so that there will not be a direct line from Master Will to Parker for our system. it will go down from Grandmaster Parker to Al and Jim Tracy to Jay T. Will ( with his line looping to Parker) to Master Hutchison (with his line looping to Will And Tracy) to myself to my students! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *That's what I have been saying all along.
> 
> :asian: *


 Yes, and i see that now! The mis-information that i was receiving at the time really screwed my lineage understanding up! Since i trained in matsumura orthodox shorin-ryu karade-do. We had our own kenpo system. This is what intrigued me to seek out the true lineage of my kenpo system. I give out kenpo lineage charts to my students to give them some understanding of where there system starts and some idea where they are going as they progress to the higher ranks.  This information if it is correct, can be passed on the their students.  So Master Conaster; i want to thank you for setting the record straight for my lineage information! My charts will be changed so that there will not be a direct line from Master Will to Parker for our system. it will go down from Grandmaster Parker to Al and Jim Tracy to Jay T. Will ( with his line looping to Parker) to Master Hutchison (with his line looping to Will And Tracy) to myself to my students! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Ronin

Ohhhh Master Conatser is all knowing!!   Hey Mr. C did you notice I got my yellow belt,   man and I didnt even get punched!!


----------



## Goldendragon7

I'll give you the kiss of the Dragon next lesson.:asian: :rofl:


----------



## Klondike93

GD7, do you still do the prmotion kick? 
The kenpo school I'm at does, and I like the idea and meaning.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

The rite of passage is alive and well in the IKKO always has been, probably always will.

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

Did Mr. Parker really kick that hard?

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *Did Mr. Parker really kick that hard?
> :asian: *



What do you mean?

If you mean for promotions........... NO, the purpose is not to hurt or injure anyone.  Just an initiation.  He did land a few good ones now and then especially to some of his tougher guys.... but not ever did I witness any abuse or anything of the sort, nor the full extent of what he COULD DO.  (thank God)!!  Nobody would be around to tell about it!!  lol

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

I did mean the promotion, when you see some of the pictures of him promoting, doing the kick, the person is usually bent in half like he's really laying that front kick in there. 

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

Mr. C, do you do kicks for every belt level?  My instructor does
punches for purple and below.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Sometimes I kick others I punch or heel palm.  Just depends on the student and the circumstances and how I feel.

:asian: 

again it is a ritual and not a display of power from the Testor to the testee....... (no pun intended)

Has everyone been explained the promotional ritual?


----------



## Rob_Broad

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Sometimes I kick others I punch or heel palm.  Just depends on the student and the circumstances and how I feel.
> 
> :asian:
> 
> again it is a ritual and not a display of power from the Testor to the testee....... (no pun intended)
> 
> Has everyone been explained the promotional ritual? *



is it not to signify birth into a new level, and in every birth there is a little pain.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Sometimes I kick others I punch or heel palm.  Just depends on the student and the circumstances and how I feel.
> 
> :asian:
> 
> again it is a ritual and not a display of power from the Testor to the testee....... (no pun intended)
> 
> Has everyone been explained the promotional ritual? *



No, I don't know anything about it  
But I'm all ears (so to speak).


----------



## Goldendragon7

Keep in mind this original process may have been changed by different organizations today.. here is the original format tho.....

FORMAL PROCEDURES TO BE OBSERVED DURING EXAMINATION FOR PROMOTION  (Observers are not permitted to witness the Formal Test)

During the testing period for promotion, the following formalities should be adhered to: 

LINE UP   The students (or student) being tested will be
 commanded to line up at the designated area.

TRAINING HORSE - 
They will then be commanded to execute a Training  Horse Stance (with their fists clenched and cocked on their hips).

They are to remain in this stance until the Board of Examiners
(Testing Committee) give them further instructions. 

MEDITATE   Meditation will be the next command. 

ATTENTION   Attention will be the next command. 

SALUTATION   The group will then be commanded to execute the Full Salutation. 

BOW   The command to bow will then be given. 

SIT DOWN   Students being tested will then be commanded to sit down on  the mat, cross their legs, sit erect, and keep their 
hands on their laps. (The Board of Examiners has the option to 
request that students stand, reposition themselves, or make any 
other adjustments dictated by environment, or by the nature of 
the Test.)

FRONT & CENTER   When student names are called, they are to 
come to the front, center themselves before the Board, stand at 
Attention (with their hands alongside their legs), and focus their 
attention on the Chief Examiner conducting the test. 

RESPONSE   Students will then listen to what is asked of them and
respond, "Yes Sir", in acknowledgement of each and every 
request.

COMMENCE   Depending upon the request, the student will 
commence by demonstrating his skill and knowledge according to 
the best of his ability.

SALUTE   After completing everything that is requested, the 
student will then salute the Board of Examiners and await the 
command to return. 

RETURN   The student will then be commanded to return to his/her
position and await further instructions. (Encourage students to
take prompt action when returning to their former position.) 

LINE UP   At the conclusion of the testing period, all students will
be commanded to line up in a straight line in front of the Board
of Examiners. They will then be commanded to remain in a 
Training Horse Stance (with their fists clenched and cocked on 
their hips.)    They are to remain fast and await further 
instructions. 

DECISION - At this point the Board of Examiners must make whatever decisions are necessary to establish who passed or 
failed their test. It is suggested that the Board of Examiners seek 
an isolated area, or room, where no one (other than the 
Examiners) can hear the discussions and decisions that are being 
made. Once the decisions are made, with the majority rule taking 
precedent, return to the testing area to inform the students as to 
who passed or failed.

NOTE: Students being tested are to be warned that any talking,
slouching, or unapproved adjournment during the testing period
could result in disqualification. 

FURTHER NOTE: Realizing that testing procedures often require
tailoring, permission is hereby granted if such action is
necessary to improve the situation.

REMINDER: The above procedures are for FORMAL TESTS and 
observers are not permitted to witness such tests. Instructors, 
however, may wish to conduct INFORMAL TESTS of their own. In 
this case observers may be permitted if so elected.

FORMAL PROCEDURES TO BE OBSERVED DURING PROMOTION 

RETURN - The Board of Examiners, upon their return, will now 
become the Presentation Committee.

ATTENTION   At this point it is the duty of the Chief Examiner to 
call the students to Attention. Upon his command, the students 
will snap to Attention and face the Presentation Committee as 
they re- enter the room. 

COMMENTS   General and specific comments will then be 
addressed to individuals or the group as a whole. Students will 
then be told whether they passed or failed. 

FRONT & CENTER   Those individuals who did not pass the test 
will be asked to reassemble to the rear. Those who passed will 
be asked to  move to the front and center themselves before the 
Presentation Committee. If the number of students who passed 
are of concern, it is recommended that two or more lines be 
formed to accommodate the group. If there is only enough to 
form one line, have the students remain where they are 
presently standing.

KNEEL   The students will receive the command to kneel before 
the Presentation Committee. 

NEW BELT   The new belt will then be placed on the floor in front 
of, and parallel to the student.

OLD BELT   The students will then be commanded to take off their 
old belt. They are to neatly fold their old belt and place it
vertically and to the left of their new belt so that when the left
end of the new belt touches the bottom end of the old belt, they
form the letter "L".  They will then be instructed as to the 
significance of this belt formation.

THE TOUCH   From the students' kneeling position, command 
them to bow, and touch their foreheads to the top and flat side 
of their new belt. Have them remain in this position for at least 
six (6) seconds before returning to their kneeling, upright 
position.  They will again be instructed as to the significance of 
this formality.

NEW BELT   The students who have passed will then put on their 
new belt and will adjust the knot on their belt so that it is
positioned properly. 

RISE   Upon the command rise, the students will then snap into an
Attention Stance.

TRAINING HORSE - When commanded, the students will then drop 
into a Training Horse with their fists clenched and on their hips. 

INITIATION   The Chief Examiner and the Instructor(s) will then
initiate the students, as well as explain the reason for the
initiation. 

ATTENTION   The passing group will then be commanded to come 
to Attention. 

LINE UP   The entire group (whether they passed or failed) will 
then be commanded to again return back to their original 
formation when first tested and line up in an orderly manner.

COMMENTS   Final comments will be addressed to the students. 

COMMITTEE - At this point the Presentation Committee will also stand and form a line facing the students. The highest ranking 
belt will stand to the extreme left (Committee's point of view) and 
all others (highest to the least) to his right.

SALUTE & HANDSHAKE   All students will then be commanded to 
execute a Humble Salute and shake the hand of each Committee 
member, starting from the highest to the least ranking black belt. 
(From the student's point of view, they will start at the right and 
work their way to the left.) The first student to start this 
procedure will be the student with the highest rank. All others 
are to follow in the order of their succeeding rank. Congratulations are in order if committeemen wish to do so.

JOIN - When the Senior Student salutes and shakes the hand of 
the last     Presentation member, he and the remaining students 
are to join the line and in turn salute, and shake the hands of 
each of the remaining students. Students may also congratulate 
each other if the wish to do so.

MEDITATE   The entire group will then be asked to Meditate. 

ATTENTION   They will then be commanded to come to Attention. 

SALUTATION   All will then be commanded to execute a Full Salutation. 

BOW   The final formal command will be to execute the concluding bow. 

DISMISS   All will then be dismissed. 

NOTE: All students will be required to pick up their belt (if they
have not already done so) and clean up the testing area. 

REMINDER: Observers are not permitted to witness the FORMAL 
TEST. They may, however, be allowed to witness the 
promotion.                       

                   PRESENTATION OF RANK CEREMONY

When you are commanded to take off your old belt from your kneeling position, you will be required to neatly fold your old belt and place it vertically and to the left of your new belt. When properly positioned the left end of your new belt should touch the bottom end of your old belt so that the letter "L" is formed. (See illustration.) You will then be informed that this "L" shaped belt formation has four significant meanings -- LIE, LONGEVITY, LOYALTY, and LOTS & LOTS.  The following will then be read to give you an indepth understanding of the significance of these terms:

1.  If the "L" formed before you stands for a LIE, a LIE that you
     are not deserving of your new rank, then you are not to
     accept it. However, if you feel that you have earned it,
     knowing with assurance that it is not being given to you as a
     gift, you may then accept it. 

2.  If receiving your new rank is not a LIE then "L" can take on
     its second meaning -- LONGEVITY or your ability to prolong
     your life. LONGEVITY can only come about if your knowledge of
     Kenpo is internalized to a point of spontaneous and
     successful application. If receiving your new rank is a LIE,
     then LONGEVITY will be short lived.  

3.  "L" also refers to LOYALTY. Whether it be to your instructor,
      association, or country, LOYALTY cultivates integrity and
      respect.

4.  The statement, "One becomes humble when he comes to the
     realization that what he knows is very little.", is an
     introduction to the meaning of the fourth "L". In this case
     "L" stands for LOTS and LOTS. That is, no matter how good 
     you become there is still LOTS and LOTS to learn and perfect.

From your kneeling position, you will be commanded to bow and 
touch your forehead to the top and flat side of your new belt. You 
will remain in this position for approximately five (5) seconds 
before being asked to return to your kneeling position.  The 
significance of this formality is as follows (read):

1.  At the moment your forehead touches your new belt you are to
     mentally transfer your previous knowledge to your new rank
     and to establish room for greater knowledge yet to come. You
     are to also ponder on the following:          
         a.  Fully understand your new roll as a senior student.
         b   Become a competent example among your fellow 
              students.
         c.  Create rapport among them.
         d.  Encourage, and assist them whenever possible.
         e.  Avoid taking advantage of them.
          f.  In no way subject them to ridicule and suppression.

While still kneeling the following will then be read to those being 
promoted:

As you are promoted to your next rank, do you solemnly pledge 
to use the art of Kenpo solely for purposes of defense and never 
for aggression? (Wait for response.) Will you strive to impart an 
attitude of respect and appreciation for the art of Kenpo, and an 
understanding of what Kenpo truly entails? (Wait for response.) 
Will you endeavor to refrain or sanction the use of Kenpo for 
destructive or harmful designs? (Wait for response.) Do you make 
these promises solemnly and on your honor? (Wait for response.) 

As long as you continue to keep this oath inviolate, may it be 
granted that you enjoy the life and practice of Kenpo, and forever 
be respected by your associates. However, should you trespass 
and violate this oath, it is hoped that the reverse will not be your 
lot.

Let us now recite the Kenpo Creed:

"I come to you with only Karate, empty hands. I have no weapons, but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles, or my honor; should it be a matter of life or death, of right or wrong; then here are my weapons, Karate, my empty hands." 

By the authority granted under the constitution of the governing 
body of the (Organization Name), we do hereby grant you your 
new and respective rank(s). 

The student(s) who have passed will then put on his/her (their) 
new belt and will adjust the knot on his/her (their) belt so that it 
is positioned as required -- left side for males and right side for 
females.

The following will then be read:

Any dishonor to this school, the (Organization), or to any of its members can bring immediate and automatic revocation of rank and honor. As symbolized in our association patch, the bottom which forms the shape of an ax represents the executioner. In the event a member is influenced by evil ideas and thoughts contrary to our philosophy, or shames the (Organization), he is to be cut off, never to co-exist with us again. 

Those who have been promoted will then be asked to stand in a horse stance with hands clenched and cocked at the waist. At this stage all will be informed of the next part of the ceremony -- the BIRTH OF PAIN. The following will then be read or extemporaneously discussed:

The earning of your new rank can be compared to the birth of a new child. For those of you who have been advanced from one color belt to another, the birth of your new rank is obvious. On the other hand for those of you who have received tips within the rank of Brown or Black, your new rank, although not as obvious, is indeed significant. Therefore, comparable to a female who goes through labor pains during the birth of her new child you too will be symbolically experiencing the birth of pain regarding your new rank. This experience is obtained through the execution of a "friendly kick" or "hand strike" as a reminder that the new rank you have received did not come easy. Accordingly rank should not come easy for those you teach. Make every effort to make them work for their rank as you have. The birth of pain is a reminder that your students should earn and not be given new rank.   

There .......... now you have it...........

:asian:


----------



## Rob_Broad

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Keep in mind this original process may have been changed by different organizations today.. here is the original format tho.....
> 
> FORMAL PROCEDURES TO BE OBSERVED DURING EXAMINATION FOR PROMOTION  (Observers are not permitted to witness the Formal Test)
> 
> During the testing period for promotion, the following formalities should be adhered to:
> 
> LINE UP   The students (or student) being tested will be
> commanded to line up at the designated area.
> 
> TRAINING HORSE -
> They will then be commanded to execute a Training  Horse Stance (with their fists clenched and cocked on their hips).
> 
> They are to remain in this stance until the Board of Examiners
> (Testing Committee) give them further instructions.
> 
> MEDITATE   Meditation will be the next command.
> 
> ATTENTION   Attention will be the next command.
> 
> SALUTATION   The group will then be commanded to execute the Full Salutation.
> 
> BOW   The command to bow will then be given.
> 
> SIT DOWN   Students being tested will then be commanded to sit down on  the mat, cross their legs, sit erect, and keep their
> hands on their laps. (The Board of Examiners has the option to
> request that students stand, reposition themselves, or make any
> other adjustments dictated by environment, or by the nature of
> the Test.)
> 
> FRONT & CENTER   When student names are called, they are to
> come to the front, center themselves before the Board, stand at
> Attention (with their hands alongside their legs), and focus their
> attention on the Chief Examiner conducting the test.
> 
> RESPONSE   Students will then listen to what is asked of them and
> respond, "Yes Sir", in acknowledgement of each and every
> request.
> 
> COMMENCE   Depending upon the request, the student will
> commence by demonstrating his skill and knowledge according to
> the best of his ability.
> 
> SALUTE   After completing everything that is requested, the
> student will then salute the Board of Examiners and await the
> command to return.
> 
> RETURN   The student will then be commanded to return to his/her
> position and await further instructions. (Encourage students to
> take prompt action when returning to their former position.)
> 
> LINE UP   At the conclusion of the testing period, all students will
> be commanded to line up in a straight line in front of the Board
> of Examiners. They will then be commanded to remain in a
> Training Horse Stance (with their fists clenched and cocked on
> their hips.)    They are to remain fast and await further
> instructions.
> 
> DECISION - At this point the Board of Examiners must make whatever decisions are necessary to establish who passed or
> failed their test. It is suggested that the Board of Examiners seek
> an isolated area, or room, where no one (other than the
> Examiners) can hear the discussions and decisions that are being
> made. Once the decisions are made, with the majority rule taking
> precedent, return to the testing area to inform the students as to
> who passed or failed.
> 
> NOTE: Students being tested are to be warned that any talking,
> slouching, or unapproved adjournment during the testing period
> could result in disqualification.
> 
> FURTHER NOTE: Realizing that testing procedures often require
> tailoring, permission is hereby granted if such action is
> necessary to improve the situation.
> 
> REMINDER: The above procedures are for FORMAL TESTS and
> observers are not permitted to witness such tests. Instructors,
> however, may wish to conduct INFORMAL TESTS of their own. In
> this case observers may be permitted if so elected.
> 
> FORMAL PROCEDURES TO BE OBSERVED DURING PROMOTION
> 
> RETURN - The Board of Examiners, upon their return, will now
> become the Presentation Committee.
> 
> ATTENTION   At this point it is the duty of the Chief Examiner to
> call the students to Attention. Upon his command, the students
> will snap to Attention and face the Presentation Committee as
> they re- enter the room.
> 
> COMMENTS   General and specific comments will then be
> addressed to individuals or the group as a whole. Students will
> then be told whether they passed or failed.
> 
> FRONT & CENTER   Those individuals who did not pass the test
> will be asked to reassemble to the rear. Those who passed will
> be asked to  move to the front and center themselves before the
> Presentation Committee. If the number of students who passed
> are of concern, it is recommended that two or more lines be
> formed to accommodate the group. If there is only enough to
> form one line, have the students remain where they are
> presently standing.
> 
> KNEEL   The students will receive the command to kneel before
> the Presentation Committee.
> 
> NEW BELT   The new belt will then be placed on the floor in front
> of, and parallel to the student.
> 
> OLD BELT   The students will then be commanded to take off their
> old belt. They are to neatly fold their old belt and place it
> vertically and to the left of their new belt so that when the left
> end of the new belt touches the bottom end of the old belt, they
> form the letter "L".  They will then be instructed as to the
> significance of this belt formation.
> 
> THE TOUCH   From the students' kneeling position, command
> them to bow, and touch their foreheads to the top and flat side
> of their new belt. Have them remain in this position for at least
> six (6) seconds before returning to their kneeling, upright
> position.  They will again be instructed as to the significance of
> this formality.
> 
> NEW BELT   The students who have passed will then put on their
> new belt and will adjust the knot on their belt so that it is
> positioned properly.
> 
> RISE   Upon the command rise, the students will then snap into an
> Attention Stance.
> 
> TRAINING HORSE - When commanded, the students will then drop
> into a Training Horse with their fists clenched and on their hips.
> 
> INITIATION   The Chief Examiner and the Instructor(s) will then
> initiate the students, as well as explain the reason for the
> initiation.
> 
> ATTENTION   The passing group will then be commanded to come
> to Attention.
> 
> LINE UP   The entire group (whether they passed or failed) will
> then be commanded to again return back to their original
> formation when first tested and line up in an orderly manner.
> 
> COMMENTS   Final comments will be addressed to the students.
> 
> COMMITTEE - At this point the Presentation Committee will also stand and form a line facing the students. The highest ranking
> belt will stand to the extreme left (Committee's point of view) and
> all others (highest to the least) to his right.
> 
> SALUTE & HANDSHAKE   All students will then be commanded to
> execute a Humble Salute and shake the hand of each Committee
> member, starting from the highest to the least ranking black belt.
> (From the student's point of view, they will start at the right and
> work their way to the left.) The first student to start this
> procedure will be the student with the highest rank. All others
> are to follow in the order of their succeeding rank. Congratulations are in order if committeemen wish to do so.
> 
> JOIN - When the Senior Student salutes and shakes the hand of
> the last     Presentation member, he and the remaining students
> are to join the line and in turn salute, and shake the hands of
> each of the remaining students. Students may also congratulate
> each other if the wish to do so.
> 
> MEDITATE   The entire group will then be asked to Meditate.
> 
> ATTENTION   They will then be commanded to come to Attention.
> 
> SALUTATION   All will then be commanded to execute a Full Salutation.
> 
> BOW   The final formal command will be to execute the concluding bow.
> 
> DISMISS   All will then be dismissed.
> 
> NOTE: All students will be required to pick up their belt (if they
> have not already done so) and clean up the testing area.
> 
> REMINDER: Observers are not permitted to witness the FORMAL
> TEST. They may, however, be allowed to witness the
> promotion.
> 
> PRESENTATION OF RANK CEREMONY
> 
> When you are commanded to take off your old belt from your kneeling position, you will be required to neatly fold your old belt and place it vertically and to the left of your new belt. When properly positioned the left end of your new belt should touch the bottom end of your old belt so that the letter "L" is formed. (See illustration.) You will then be informed that this "L" shaped belt formation has four significant meanings -- LIE, LONGEVITY, LOYALTY, and LOTS & LOTS.  The following will then be read to give you an indepth understanding of the significance of these terms:
> 
> 1.  If the "L" formed before you stands for a LIE, a LIE that you
> are not deserving of your new rank, then you are not to
> accept it. However, if you feel that you have earned it,
> knowing with assurance that it is not being given to you as a
> gift, you may then accept it.
> 
> 2.  If receiving your new rank is not a LIE then "L" can take on
> its second meaning -- LONGEVITY or your ability to prolong
> your life. LONGEVITY can only come about if your knowledge of
> Kenpo is internalized to a point of spontaneous and
> successful application. If receiving your new rank is a LIE,
> then LONGEVITY will be short lived.
> 
> 3.  "L" also refers to LOYALTY. Whether it be to your instructor,
> association, or country, LOYALTY cultivates integrity and
> respect.
> 
> 4.  The statement, "One becomes humble when he comes to the
> realization that what he knows is very little.", is an
> introduction to the meaning of the fourth "L". In this case
> "L" stands for LOTS and LOTS. That is, no matter how good
> you become there is still LOTS and LOTS to learn and perfect.
> 
> From your kneeling position, you will be commanded to bow and
> touch your forehead to the top and flat side of your new belt. You
> will remain in this position for approximately five (5) seconds
> before being asked to return to your kneeling position.  The
> significance of this formality is as follows (read):
> 
> 1.  At the moment your forehead touches your new belt you are to
> mentally transfer your previous knowledge to your new rank
> and to establish room for greater knowledge yet to come. You
> are to also ponder on the following:
> a.  Fully understand your new roll as a senior student.
> b   Become a competent example among your fellow
> students.
> c.  Create rapport among them.
> d.  Encourage, and assist them whenever possible.
> e.  Avoid taking advantage of them.
> f.  In no way subject them to ridicule and suppression.
> 
> While still kneeling the following will then be read to those being
> promoted:
> 
> As you are promoted to your next rank, do you solemnly pledge
> to use the art of Kenpo solely for purposes of defense and never
> for aggression? (Wait for response.) Will you strive to impart an
> attitude of respect and appreciation for the art of Kenpo, and an
> understanding of what Kenpo truly entails? (Wait for response.)
> Will you endeavor to refrain or sanction the use of Kenpo for
> destructive or harmful designs? (Wait for response.) Do you make
> these promises solemnly and on your honor? (Wait for response.)
> 
> As long as you continue to keep this oath inviolate, may it be
> granted that you enjoy the life and practice of Kenpo, and forever
> be respected by your associates. However, should you trespass
> and violate this oath, it is hoped that the reverse will not be your
> lot.
> 
> Let us now recite the Kenpo Creed:
> 
> "I come to you with only Karate, empty hands. I have no weapons, but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles, or my honor; should it be a matter of life or death, of right or wrong; then here are my weapons, Karate, my empty hands."
> 
> By the authority granted under the constitution of the governing
> body of the (Organization Name), we do hereby grant you your
> new and respective rank(s).
> 
> The student(s) who have passed will then put on his/her (their)
> new belt and will adjust the knot on his/her (their) belt so that it
> is positioned as required -- left side for males and right side for
> females.
> 
> The following will then be read:
> 
> Any dishonor to this school, the (Organization), or to any of its members can bring immediate and automatic revocation of rank and honor. As symbolized in our association patch, the bottom which forms the shape of an ax represents the executioner. In the event a member is influenced by evil ideas and thoughts contrary to our philosophy, or shames the (Organization), he is to be cut off, never to co-exist with us again.
> 
> Those who have been promoted will then be asked to stand in a horse stance with hands clenched and cocked at the waist. At this stage all will be informed of the next part of the ceremony -- the BIRTH OF PAIN. The following will then be read or extemporaneously discussed:
> 
> The earning of your new rank can be compared to the birth of a new child. For those of you who have been advanced from one color belt to another, the birth of your new rank is obvious. On the other hand for those of you who have received tips within the rank of Brown or Black, your new rank, although not as obvious, is indeed significant. Therefore, comparable to a female who goes through labor pains during the birth of her new child you too will be symbolically experiencing the birth of pain regarding your new rank. This experience is obtained through the execution of a "friendly kick" or "hand strike" as a reminder that the new rank you have received did not come easy. Accordingly rank should not come easy for those you teach. Make every effort to make them work for their rank as you have. The birth of pain is a reminder that your students should earn and not be given new rank.
> 
> There .......... now you have it...........
> 
> :asian: *



Ya like I said without the technical breakdown of a grading.  But thank you for posting the breakdown of grading for now I have a copy of the offical script.


----------



## Goldendragon7

a credible insturctor for help with your studio thru an organization.....  at least this is one good example of  some of the information that is available.  **wink**

Use it in good Kenpo Health!!  Keep the traditions strong vs watered down.

:asian:


----------



## Rob_Broad

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *a credible insturctor for help with your studio thru an organization.....  at least this is one good example of  some of the information that is available.  **wink**
> 
> Use it in good Kenpo Health!!  Keep the traditions strong vs watered down.
> 
> :asian: *



Just got to love those subtle hints.  Yes I am still considering it, it would be a lot easier if there were some videoson the market that would help me have th einofrmation at my fingertips.


----------



## Goldendragon7

I do have private custom ones you know!:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

> I do have private custom ones you know!



We are talking Kenpo training, aren't we?  


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Of course we are talking Kenpo and ONLY Kenpo!!

Geez

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Ricardo guy from Texas!:rofl:


----------



## Ronin

Hey Mr.C, tell us if any high ranking guys every got demoted?


----------



## Rob_Broad

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I do have private custom ones you know!:asian: *



I will definitely have to keep that in mind.  I am always looking at expanding my horizons and knowledge base.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Ronin _
> *Hey Mr.C, tell us if any high ranking guys every got demoted? *



Oh man, you are really looking to start trouble aren't you!!

Hmmmm No, I can't think of any high ranking guys ever getting demoted.


----------



## Rob_Broad

Some people want all the dirt.  I never heard of anyone being demoted but I have heard of people falling out of favor in the Kenpo community.


----------



## Goldendragon7

you have to watch all the "ronins" they are all trouble.

:asian:


----------



## Rob_Broad

It must have something to do with the name.


----------



## Goldendragon7

I'm sure!

:asian:


----------



## Ronin

Hey Mr. C whats the kenpo senior counsel up to these days?


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Ricardo guy from Texas!:rofl: *



I heard that. The next time you get a Philly Cheese Sandwich, I hope you find an eye ball in it!


----------



## Goldendragon7

Man, I don't wanna make you that mad!  I forgot you know all my famous eateries!:rofl: 

:asian: 
just teasin with ya you big lovable texas armadillo!


----------



## Ronin

howd we get on the subject of food?


----------



## tigerstorm

I was under the impression that Grandmaster Parker promtoed Nick Cerio to 9th degree from 5th?
  Tigerstorm


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by tigerstorm _
> 
> *I was under the impression that Grandmaster Parker promtoed Nick Cerio to 9th degree from 5th?
> Tigerstorm *



I was under the impression that he never promoted anyone 
past 7th degree.  Minus the notorious honorary 8ths.  I've 
never heard of anyone getting 9th?


----------



## Goldendragon7

It was a cross over rank certification that was dated.   Cerio was to join the IKKA and start teaching the curriculum ..... withing a short period of time, he opened a studio close to an exisiting IKKA studio so the friendship was ended.


:asian:


----------



## tigerstorm

Ok thank you
  Tigerstorm


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *It was a cross over rank certification that was dated.   Cerio was to join the IKKA and start teaching the curriculum ..... withing a short period of time, he opened a studio close to an exisiting IKKA studio so the friendship was ended.*



Was anyone else a crossover rank?  How long after he met Mr.
Parker did his cert get signed?


----------



## Goldendragon7

They knew each other for years....... But Cerio decided to finally join and study "under" Ed Parker and was to learn his system or so he said.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *They knew each other for years....... But Cerio decided to finally join and study "under" Ed Parker and was to learn his system or so he said. *



Majorly uncool!


----------



## Goldendragon7

Except for what his people want to claim ...... and he didn't learn the American Kenpo Material.

But I don't think it matters much today.

:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> Any of the 10th today have given themselves that rank or been given it through associations they run etc.
> 
> But then again, no one ranked Parker to 10th either. *



That is not 100% accurate.  A panel of Masters can elevate someone to 10th under the Intrnational Sokiship rules as well as some other sanctioning bodies.  Within one's own system, a senior master can have his own black belts elevate him as long as he has at least 2/3 of them agree and at least 10 to promote.  Don't like that idea at all, but I know someone who did it.  No I do not like or respect him so I will not mention his name.  You can also inherit it.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *There was one other promotion to 8th Degree Black Belt (Associate Master). This rank was awarded to the legendary Jay. T. Will  in which my kenpo lineage is traced back to GM Parker through is student Master Ed. Hutchison. Master Will was Master Hutchison's Instructor and just 1 of the 10,000 or more students of Master Will! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *


My instructor  was also ranked by Master Will.  He went under him after SGM Parker passed on.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> * Before he died, Master Will promoted only 2 Black belts to the rank of 6th Degree. Master Dave Harris was one of those Black Belts*



Have to disagree there, he promoted Rich Alford also, I have seen the certificate.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> 
> That is not 100% accurate.  A panel of Masters can elevate someone to 10th under the Intrnational Sokiship rules as well as some other sanctioning bodies.  Within one's own system, a senior master can have his own black belts elevate him as long as he has at least 2/3 of them agree and at least 10 to promote.  Don't like that idea at all, but I know someone who did it.  No I do not like or respect him so I will not mention his name.  You can also inherit it. *


Sorry guys, that was just a touch of it, obviously some of you knew much more and I posted before I read all the way through!


----------



## GouRonin

If you get a chance ask Big D about the reasoning that Parker gave for ranking himself. It makes perfect sense and I agree with him.


----------



## Michael Billings

Just reading all this string wore me out ... Only to end up back where I thought it was.  Talk about a good house cleaning.  

Everything stayed pretty clean up until the demise of the IKKA's influence, and fragmentation of the Kenpo Seniors in various directions.  In all else, I just remember Dennis Conatser was there with Mr. Parker ... like a bad penny, he always turned up (just kidding.)  If anyone knows the history it would be him.  Maybe we can talk him into writing a book.  I would buy it.  Maybe even a couple of books.  Uh-oh, now it could be volumes.  Watch out, now it is video tapes, CD's, DVD's.  

You see how confused it  has gotten in a decade since the IKKA's demise.  Imagine what it will be like a decade from now if we do not preserve this knowledge.

Oos,
Michael B.:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

I have stated before that I did in fact asked him the all important question........ "Who promoted you to 10th?"  Of course I qualified it by also saying.... "Sir, I really don't care because I love the system but I have heard others ask and are afraid to ask you and that has peaked my curiosity as well.  I really don't care one way or the other  because you are an awesome teacher and have developed a great art, but how did you come to wearing a 10th Degree."

Mr. Parker just looked at me for a minute and then said... "Well, to tell ya the truth, I looked around at all the other "Masters of our Time" and evaluated just what they had contributed to the Arts.  I then made a list of "MY" accomplishments, and regulated my rank accordingly.  No one else has:

*  brought together Martial Artists like the Long Beach 
    Internationals has done for as many years in a row - 
*  has the current terminology as we have
*  Applied Logic in the manner I did
*  Created several training aids to illustrate our Art
     -  Universal Pattern
     -  Web of Knowledge
     -  8 Preparatory Considerations that tailor to the current times
     -  Movement Curriculums that are Logical and Practical
     -  Applied Principles of Motion to everything we do
     -  Taught methods of teaching the material
     -  Promoted Creative thinking within the ranks
        *  Written Thesis
        *  Form Thesis
*  Created the 1st truly American Developed Art not a 
    transplanted one from Asia or elsewhere

"As I looked at these accomplishments in comparison with other "Current Masters of my Time" I ranked myself accordingly."

I said..... Yep ...... you got my vote!  No one in history has accomplished what you have...... That's why I'm here and not somewhere else.   He just looked at me and laughed ...... then said,  "Lets go to Genghis Khans, I'm hungry!"


----------



## Klondike93

I never really thought about where Mr. Parker got his rank, just didn't care I guess. The man was pretty smart about the art of fighting and what it takes to win. 

But I still can't get over the one's that have promoted themselves to 10th since he died.  Now there are more 10th degrees than you can shake a tree at, where were they when he was alive?


:asian:


----------



## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *I never really thought about where Mr. Parker got his rank, just didn't care I guess. The man was pretty smart about the art of fighting and what it takes to win.
> 
> But I still can't get over the one's that have promoted themselves to 10th since he died.  Now there are more 10th degrees than you can shake a tree at, where were they when he was alive?
> 
> 
> :asian: *



Yes there are quite a few AK grand masters out there and the number can only go up as groups and people splinter off.


----------



## Goldendragon7

None of them has even come close to actually developing anything "NEW" like Mr. Parker did.  They are all reworking or spin-offs of what he already established.

I myself am comfortable to just keep alive all the Art  he had while he was here and expand it as he wanted it!~  

"There are two ways of spreading the light......... One to be the candle or Two... the mirror that reflects it."

We can't all be candles but we can all be mirrors!

Some will, some won't ...... but all can!

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *None of them has even come close to actually developing anything "NEW" like Mr. Parker did.  They are all reworking or spin-offs of what he already established.
> 
> I myself am comfortable to just keep alive all the Art  he had while he was here and expand it as he wanted it!~
> 
> "There are two ways of spreading the light......... One to be the candle or Two... the mirror that reflects it."
> 
> We can't all be candles but we can all be mirrors!
> 
> Some will, some won't ...... but all can!*



The only thing that sucks about that is some seem to be able
to be mirrors quickly and easily, and some of us have to bust
our asses twice as long to accomplish the same skill!


----------



## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *None of them has even come close to actually developing anything "NEW" like Mr. Parker did.  They are all reworking or spin-offs of what he already established.
> 
> I myself am comfortable to just keep alive all the Art  he had while he was here and expand it as he wanted it!~
> 
> "There are two ways of spreading the light......... One to be the candle or Two... the mirror that reflects it."
> 
> We can't all be candles but we can all be mirrors!
> 
> Some will, some won't ...... but all can!
> 
> :asian: *



So that's kind of what I'm saying. Mr Parker was the candle and all you guys he taught are the mirrors reflecting to the rest of us.
So now these guys all want to be the candle and I think they allways did and just laid back till something happened. 


:asian:


----------



## tshadowchaser

I really wish I had had the time to get to know Mr. Parker.  The couple times that I met him didn't allow for much conversation. 
I belive that I would have enjoyed conversing and learning from him (providing he could find the time  and was willing to sit and talk to  a nobody)
 The man always seemed friendly to all who spoke to him.
  That  his influence is deeply missed by many, is a tribute to his teaching and to the man himslef.
Shadow:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

the only time I ever got to meet him, I was too dumbfounded to ask any worthwhile questions and I do regret it now.   


:asian:


----------



## tonbo

...thanks for posting the promotion ceremony.  That was a very nice post to have, and I am going to make a copy of it to keep for my records.

I also wanted to thank you for your explanations of so much of the Kenpo material.  In a sea of politics and "I heard it this way.."s, you are a stable ship of good, clean information.

I never got to meet Mr. Parker, having started in the art after his death, and our school has pretty much distanced itself from the politics of the organizations and all the bickering.  I know that my instructor and his father both respected (and *still* respect!!) Mr. Parker, and don't want to be part of the political fights....they just want to teach the art.

Thanks for "keeping it real".  

:asian: 

Peace--


----------



## Goldendragon7

For your kind words.  I try.

:asian:


----------



## donald

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> 
> Have to disagree there, he promoted Rich Alford also, I have seen the certificate. *



Seig,

       Is Rich Alford, any relation to Hugh Alford, formerly of the greater Cleveland, Ohio area? I believe Hugh Alford was one of the first, if not the first to bring kenpo to this area? It would be interesting to find out what happened to him? Thanks for any help/comments.

Salute in Christ,
Donald


----------



## Klondike93

Yeah GD what he said, your one cool dude  

And thanks for the e-mail, I like the wallpaper. 

Would I have to join your organization to get a patch for my collection? PLMK, thanks..


:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by donald _
> 
> *
> 
> Seig,
> 
> Is Rich Alford, any relation to Hugh Alford, formerly of the greater Cleveland, Ohio area? I believe Hugh Alford was one of the first, if not the first to bring kenpo to this area? It would be interesting to find out what happened to him? Thanks for any help/comments.
> 
> Salute in Christ,
> Donald *


No Rich Alford is from Florida.  He trained with SGM Parker to 3rd Dan, that I know of.  There was something political involved from there to 5th.  No a disagreement with SGM Parker but someone close to him.  Whatever the rift was, it was made far worse by the death of SGM Parker.  At that point GM Alford put his banner under JT Will, GM Cerio and others.  I do not know all the details, I do not want to know all the details.  I Love and respect the man far too much to pry any further.
Peace


----------



## Goldendragon7

Who do you train with?
:asian:


----------



## Seig

I'm under GM Rich Alford.  I used to live in FL.  Now I have to make trips to see him.  I have my own dojo now.  I've had my San-Dan for about three years now.  I'm working on bringing him up for a seminar with my students and some one on one time as I start prepping for my Yon-Dan. I hope to be ready for that in the next year or two.


----------



## Goldendragon7

I'm not familiar with that name...... what is your Kenpo lineage, if you don't mind.   

:asian:


----------



## Seig

GD,
I thought I had explained that, sorry.  Rich Alford trained with SGM Parker and then several other people, including GM Cierio and MAster Will and..and...and...The amount and quality of Signatures on the wall used to awe me.  Unfortuantely I've only been around Kenpo for the past 10 years, so I did not get the opportunty to meet most of these people.


----------



## Goldendragon7

cool!
:asian:


----------



## Seig

And that, sir, is exactly why my wife and I are so happy to have found this board.


----------



## KenpoTess

Goldendragon, Here's a few shots of our GM Rich Alford, thought you might like to take a gander 
Btw, Seig is 11 yrs my junior so doubt he would know anyone in the older circles ~ Yeah I hear ya.. *g*

http://www.flma.net/Pictures.htm

Tess


----------



## Seig

Note:  The Blue GI top he is wearing is because he and his team were competeing with Pepsi as their sponsor at the US OPEN.  Team Pepsi.


----------



## Goldendragon7

How many cases of Pepsi do you get to keep for yourself?  I LOVE Pepsi!

:rofl:


----------



## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *How many cases of Pepsi do you get to keep for yourself?  I LOVE Pepsi!
> 
> :rofl: *



Pass the Pepsi, and a big bag of Taco Chips!!!!:boing1: 

Dan "Man!  I'm hungry" Farmer


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *How many cases of Pepsi do you get to keep for yourself?  I LOVE Pepsi!
> 
> :rofl: *


Dunno, I was stuck here in Almost Heaven


----------



## Goldendragon7

Rich Alfred that is... Was it Cerio or Will?

:asian:


----------



## Seig

He was promoted to 8th by JT will.  He was promoted to 9th by SGM Rex Lee(Nisei and a bunch of other stuff), which was confirmed by International Sokiship Council.  He was promoted to 10th by a board of other 9ths and 10ths throughtout the state of Florida after SGM Lee's passing (Cancer).  They had to really fight with him to get him to accept 10th, it took them over a year.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Thanks

:asian:


----------



## meni

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *I was talking to a kenpo instructor about rank one day, and was told the following.
> Mr Parker was known as GM holding 10th degree and there would be no other 10th as that was his title and rank as founder of the system.
> When he died, others in the system wanted to be promoted to 10th but couldn't because he held the rank. Thus SGM was created to elevate Mr. Parker above all others and yet let them be 10th degrees now. Don't know if it's true or not but it kind of makes sense. Till they made him SGM no high ranking black belt wanted to be a 10th.
> 
> :asian: *



yes that is the way i understand too it seem logical.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Ed Parker was the Founder of HIS art which he termed...... Ed Parker's American Kenpo.  AS such he developed the rank system as such.  He even forecast that there will be other 10th degrees (he was not into rank but knowledge and what you did with it).  

Prior to his death.... students that left promoted themselves thru various means and after his death it was no different.  There were in fact those that wanted a 10th Degree and those individuals got what they wanted but not because Mr. Parker was elevated to SGM.  That term came about "AFTER" others took those high ranking belts so as to be sure and position Him at the Pinnacle of HIS Art ~ which is where he should be.  Ed Parker is the Founder of the System and no one will ever take that position and he will be the only SGM of HIS system as well.

Others can be founders of their own organizations but can lay no claim to Ed Parkers American Kenpo System.  Every Kenpo Organization out there is in reality a spin off of what is called an "Ed Parker Kenpo System".

No one will ever replace Ed Parker (although some have visions of Grandeur).  Many are rearranging the movements, renaming techniques, re-doing forms etc., but NONE have developed anything new other than terminology that he didn't have already outlined in his Journals and Notes.

:asian:


----------



## John Bishop

Just a note.  Mr. Parker used the title "Senior Grand Master" years before he passed away.  People used it when talking about him, and he was introduced to audiences at events such as the "Long Beach internationals" as "Senior Grand Master".


----------



## Goldendragon7

I stand corrected........ you are right, the term was used by some at that time (although not demanded by the man himself). 

What I was referring to was that "After" he passed we used the term more regularly and put in Stone because NOW it really had meaning due to what was happening with some in his association.

:asian: 

where is Gary ... btw?


----------



## Seig

I vote that we edit it to "*THE * Senior Grand Master"


----------



## Goldendragon7

for me!:asian:


----------



## Sigung86

Cool with me Fellow Kenpo Bubbas! <- Trying out new titles for the rest of us!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan "Just call me Kenpo Bubba" Farmer


----------



## Seig

So we would have:
1.) Bubba
2.) Mister Bubba
3.) Master Bubba


----------



## Goldendragon7

Sieg's a Blue Belt!  

:wavey:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Sieg's a Blue Belt!
> 
> :wavey: *


Aw shucks, I just let my fingers do the talking.


----------



## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Kenpo-The art of adding insult to injury... *



Seig.  Just wanted to say, I love that saying.  An absolutely perfect definition of Kenpo.  

Bravo!!!  :rofl:

Mind if I use it on my site the next time I update it?

dot
:asian:


----------



## Sandor

My favorite has always been; 

'Kenpo, you only hurt the one's you love' :asian: 





Peace,
Sandor


----------



## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *My favorite has always been;
> 
> 'Kenpo, you only hurt the one's you love' :asian: *




LOL  yes another perfect one. 

But the other one is true to fact.  Kenpo people don't just stop their attacker.  They stop them and then stomp them into the ground a bit more.  

ie ..... Not over Kill .... Over Skill!!!    

dot


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *
> 
> Seig.  Just wanted to say, I love that saying.  An absolutely perfect definition of Kenpo.
> 
> Bravo!!!  :rofl:
> 
> Mind if I use it on my site the next time I update it?
> 
> dot
> :asian: *


Glad you like it, yes you may use it.


----------



## tonbo

> Kenpo people don't just stop their attacker. They stop them and then stomp them into the ground a bit more.



No doubt!!  This was explained to me by one of my instructors as follows:

"People who attack you are actually just trying to share with you.  They are sharing their desire to help you get better.  We, as Kenpo practitioners, believe in sharing back.  And since they wanted to share *so* much, we should help them out".

*sniff*  Man, brings a tear to my eye.  All that giving.... 

I mean, really.....if someone is going to go to the trouble of helping me train, shouldn't I give them all I can??  

 

Peace--


----------



## Seig

I treat an attacker as a student.  When they err in judgement and attack me, I feel I must not only show them the error of their ways, but also, the flaws in their attack.  Once this has been done, the lesson continues by me teaching them the consequence of not having a logical, well thought out plan of attack.


----------



## Sandor

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *
> 
> No doubt!!  This was explained to me by one of my instructors as follows:
> 
> "People who attack you are actually just trying to share with you.  They are sharing their desire to help you get better.  We, as Kenpo practitioners, believe in sharing back.  And since they wanted to share *so* much, we should help them out".
> 
> *sniff*  Man, brings a tear to my eye.  All that giving....
> 
> I mean, really.....if someone is going to go to the trouble of helping me train, shouldn't I give them all I can??
> 
> 
> 
> Peace-- *



Well, I have always been of the belief that it is better to give than to receive.  

Peace,
Sandor


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *
> 
> Well, I have always been of the belief that it is better to give than to receive.
> 
> Peace,
> Sandor *


In that case, give me all your money, I will be happy to receive it.


----------



## Sandor

Seig,

After a little scrounging and fishing through the cushions on the couch I have a whopping $1.37 (US). Where do ya want me to upload it to... yuk yuk


----------



## Seig

Well, I can give you the link to my Dad's website for fishing lures and you can get it to me via Pay Pal


----------



## Goldendragon7

It's been a few months now......:rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7

there are more 6ths thru 9ths that are respected more than most of the current 10ths.


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *It's been a few months now......:rofl: *



Heck, I'm still wating for my 5th from the IKKO!


----------



## Seig

I'm thinking.....Let's see..I got my third in 1999...I should make fourth by 2052:shrug: 
Oh wait, I forgot, I can promote myself to 10th!


----------



## tonbo

Seig, you obviously missed some of the threads regarding starting your own style.....if you do *that*, (say, like, Seig-do, or something) you can not only promote yourself to 10th degree, but you can call yourself "Grand Master", too!!

Or, even better.....decide that your style is an offshoot of some ninjitsu clan from ages past, and you can call yourself something even cooler, like "Shadow Lord" or something equally ominous........and you can claim all kinds of history in secret death matches!!!!

You are missing out on real opportunity, here!!

Peace--


----------



## Sandor

Hey Tonbo,

If you create your own style you can call yourself 'Senior Grand Master' which is infinitely superior to the lowly title of 'Grand Master'... :rofl: 

Peace,
Sandor


----------



## brianhunter

some guys arent even making their own system and still consider themselves grand master :shrug:  Thought that was reserved for someone


----------



## Goldendragon7

Lord High Mocus Imperial Goldendragon Roya'l:samurai: 
Just has a nice ring to it.:armed: 

:asian:


----------



## Sandor

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *some guys arent even making their own system and still consider themselves grand master :shrug:  Thought that was reserved for someone *



Well, you make a great point Brian. I thought it was exclusively Senior Grand Master for the founding father of a given art and Grand Master to succsessors of the art after the passing of the SGM.

As of late I have noticed that there is someone claiming to be THE 'SGM' of Kenpo right here in my home town... Amazing. When I heard that bit of news I was speechless. I guess if you can put your title to Ed Parker's American Kenpo into the Spanish language you too can be an SGM...

I still think the best title to earn is 'Supreme Ultimate Grand Poobah Potato Toes' but I could be wrong...

Peace,
Sandor


----------



## Goldendragon7

You are just toooooooooo funny!  We have to meet someday and have a milk.

:asian:


----------



## Sandor

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *You are just toooooooooo funny!  We have to meet someday and have a milk.
> 
> :asian: *



I keep promising myself that I will visit that side of the US one of these days. Unfortunately, getting a visa to visit from here is a difficult process...:asian: 

Milk does a body good, especially for baby cows. How about a nice refreshing glass of iced tea or carrot juice?  

Peace,
Sandor


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *Seig, you obviously missed some of the threads regarding starting your own style.....if you do *that*, (say, like, Seig-do, or something) you can not only promote yourself to 10th degree, but you can call yourself "Grand Master", too!!
> 
> Or, even better.....decide that your style is an offshoot of some ninjitsu clan from ages past, and you can call yourself something even cooler, like "Shadow Lord" or something equally ominous........and you can claim all kinds of history in secret death matches!!!!
> 
> You are missing out on real opportunity, here!!
> 
> Peace-- *


You are absolutely correct.  But I have a few points on why I think the whole thing is ludicrous.
1.)  As a GM or SGM, you are implying that you know all there is to know about something.  To me tht means that your arrogance means you have stopped learning and have been come close minded.
2.)  Nobody takes 2/3 of the GMs or SGMs serious.  And while I am not a serious person, I do take the MA seriously and wish to be considered a serious practitoner/teacher.  That doesn't mean I don't ahve fun with it.
3.)  The public at large has serious issues with "Masters" in their early 30's, what would they think of a GM or SGM in that age range?
4.) My ego just isn't that large.  IF I am not a 4th by the time one of my students is ready for third, I'll import someone like the illustrious GD7 to grade them.  But that is about 5 years away, I have time yet.  I'm in no hurry


----------



## Michael Billings

Too many Senior Grand Masters for me.  What ever happened to 3rd Dan or 4th Black.  It is pretty impressive to me to know some 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th degrees.  They do not take any offense when referred to, or introduced by their rank...not their title.  

Seems a little insecure, on some level, to insist on the title.  Everyone knows you have paid your dues and done your time, "You are what you show" and I am not talking about stripes or bars on a belt.  Nor am I talking about just the physical side of the Art.

Just gets to be an old topic at some point.  I see it on every forum and who is what.  Oh well, guess I am lucky to be pretty isolated in Texas from a bunch of the bickering and fighting that goes on elsewhere.  I also tend to be tolerant of others and if they have something to share, I am appreciative.  Likewise if I can share, I consider it a responsibility to Mr. Parker and my teachers to keep the Art alive.

Michael


----------



## Seig

Michael. Sounds like you kind of said the same ting I did.  I always said that rank wise, my lifetime goal was 7th Dan.  Being the age I am, that is a realistic goal.  Being here in WV keeps me isolated from a lot of the politics of MA, not all of it.  My school seems to be a seperatist group.  At one point I was going tohave my school participate in Karate World Ratings.  I did not have a good experience with the head of the organization as a result am not patronizing him or his events.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Michael. Sounds like you kind of said the same ting I did.  I always said that rank wise, my lifetime goal was 7th Dan.  Being the age I am, that is a realistic goal.  Being here in WV keeps me isolated from a lot of the politics of MA, not all of it.  My school seems to be a seperatist group.  At one point I was going tohave my school participate in Karate World Ratings.  I did not have a good experience with the head of the organization as a result am not patronizing him or his events*



Are you affiliated with any organization?  Would it be easier, or
more difficult to attain a 7th if affiliated with an organization?


----------



## Seig

I am affiliated, I don't know fo rhow much longer though.  I am thinking of going to a more respected/respectable one.  I figure if I get 7th in the next 15 to 20 years, I'll be on track.


----------



## Michael Billings

Yepper, that is who I am affiliated with.  Due to my location here in Austin, I do feel like a step-child that has gone to live with their grandparents.  The UKS is primarily a West Coast organization that consists of a bunch of Mr. Parker's Black Belts that were actively studying with him through the 1980's.  Bryan Hawkins managed his West L.A. school, Bob Liles (His Kenpo Son), people like Howard Silva, Tommy Burks, Andre Sims, etc.  It is a fun crowd to bang around with, and they are seriously committed to keeping it Kenpo.

Now honestly, I have seen promotions for Black Belts who joined associations and brought their students with them.  People who were 3rds with me are now 7ths.  Of course they have been through several associations or instructors to get that high.  This is not everyone of course, but those that did this know who you are and why you got the rank.  

Unless you give yourself a 7th, you do need to be with an Association or recognized Kenpo Senior Belt to move up.  It seems much more heavily political once you hit 7th.  I guess this has to do with the fact that nobody alive was higher than 7th at the time of Mr. Parker's death.  It is a landmark of sorts.

I will worry about 5th for now.  I sat at 3rd for 8 years following the break-up of the IKKA (rather when all my friends left it), or my teacher, Tom Burks, waiting to affiliate with a group he respected and was like-minded with.  I know I need to continue moving for my students and myself, but I do not have the same amount of testostorone and competitivness driving me that I had a decade ago.

If you are looking for a teacher or association, Dennis Conatser, Bob Liles, or maybe, maybe (I would have to get to know him better) Ron Chapel, or Mike Pick would be who I would go with now.  I have known Huk for years, but do not see him enough to consider switching associations and John Sepulveda I respect a bunch.  Personality-wise I would love to train with Tom Kelly, but I think he is doing his own thing right now and of course Steven LaBounty is a great teacher, not sure what type of Kenpo he is teach now, but someone on this forum would know.

I do not mean to slight the East Coast teachers, I just do not know any personally, so I cannot make an informed sort of recommendation.  

Good luck and Keep it Real,
-Michael
UKS-Texas


----------



## tonbo

I hope you know I was just kidding about the whole GM/SGM thing.  I feel pretty good about saying that you know that, but just in case.....I was kidding.. 

My perspective is very similar.  I don't think anyone needs to go out and give themselves any rank, but hey....if they do, then sooner or later, it will catch up with them, and they will be exposed as the fraud they are.

As for the titling of it, I think it is a lot like the inner circles of the intelligentsia:  If you ask someone if they are part of the group, and they say, "Yes", then you know they are not.  You aren't actually a part of the group unless someone else (who IS in the group) says you are.  I know that makes little sense, but I guess you could say it this way, too:  You are a GM or SGM when other GMs/SGMs acknowledge you and your contributions, not when you declare yourself one.

Geez....as for goals, I would LOVE to make it to 7th.  That is a goal for me as well.  I am in my mid-30s, and may just make that goal.  For the time being, though, just reaching 2nd will be enough....heck, just having earned BLACK is a great accomplishment for me!  

Titles are SO not important, really.  I mean, who cares if you call yourself "Bob", "Sensei Bob", or "Senior Grand High Master Lord of All Things Kenpo Bob".  What have you *done*?  

Regarding titles, I think it is a lot like the saying goes:  "Those who mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind".

Me, I just want to be known as a practitioner.  I will never get this stuff down to perfection, and I will never be a "master" in my opinion.  Always just a student.  Let others start new styles or get all the awards--fine with me.  I'll just keep on hammering away at the basics until I gotta spar with the Reaper..... 

Peace--


----------



## Goldendragon7

The first name mentioned would have sufficed!

:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

Which title Mr. Conatser?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _*
> Yepper, If you are looking for a teacher or association, Dennis Conatser would have to be who I would go with now.
> Good luck and Keep it Real, -Michael
> UKS-Texas *



Not title but teachers or Organizations..!!!


----------



## Michael Billings

Gotcha, we all gotta have an opinion.  I have been around long enough to appreciate everyone's.  Not neccessarily agree with them, but appreciate them.

There are several teachers and organizations I would have to consider if I was going to affiliate myself with them, or become their student ... 2 very different things.  Since I am increadably loyal (look how long I was with Mr. Duffy - 15 years), even if Tommy was not my teacher (since then), it would be a major decision for me to consider going elsewhere.  Money and time are major issues with my job and the school and my students, and my family.  I have no desire to hop around and learn a little bit from a lot of teachers, I am in it for the long haul, as you know.

You would certainly be in a very very small group that I would have to consider if I did decide to change teachers.  The teacher end of it is more important to me than the organization, obviously.  I stayed with Mr. Duffy from the NCKKA to the IKKA, then have only been UKS since then.

However, you do have the coolest patches!!  I respect you, and what you have done, both before and after Mr. Parker's death.  Not sure if that is what the not-so-smiley face was about or not.  But you know how sensitive we lowley 4ths can be ... especially when there is always the threat of the dreaded "Pink Belt" if I don't keep it real.

Call anytime if this is a talk about it kind of issue.  If not, then lets not worry about it and continue our growing relationship.

Oos,
-Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

I was referring to you giving me a plug for teaching and or organizations.  I was just kidding by saying you could have just stopped with my name and forgot about all the others........ lol... No I am in no way mad or upset, just teasing you ......... saying that the only name you needed was mine......... LOL....... of course I realize that all the others are wonderful and great ... that's all.

:asian:


----------



## brianhunter

I dont have the time in the art you guys do.....but hearing you guys talk really makes me apreciate having Sibok Tom Kelly around...I guess I take that for granted too much, i shouldnt!!


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *I hope you know I was just kidding about the whole GM/SGM thing.  I feel pretty good about saying that you know that, but just in case.....I was kidding..
> 
> My perspective is very similar.  I don't think anyone needs to go out and give themselves any rank, but hey....if they do, then sooner or later, it will catch up with them, and they will be exposed as the fraud they are.
> 
> As for the titling of it, I think it is a lot like the inner circles of the intelligentsia:  If you ask someone if they are part of the group, and they say, "Yes", then you know they are not.  You aren't actually a part of the group unless someone else (who IS in the group) says you are.  I know that makes little sense, but I guess you could say it this way, too:  You are a GM or SGM when other GMs/SGMs acknowledge you and your contributions, not when you declare yourself one.
> 
> Geez....as for goals, I would LOVE to make it to 7th.  That is a goal for me as well.  I am in my mid-30s, and may just make that goal.  For the time being, though, just reaching 2nd will be enough....heck, just having earned BLACK is a great accomplishment for me!
> 
> Titles are SO not important, really.  I mean, who cares if you call yourself "Bob", "Sensei Bob", or "Senior Grand High Master Lord of All Things Kenpo Bob".  What have you *done*?
> 
> Regarding titles, I think it is a lot like the saying goes:  "Those who mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind".
> 
> Me, I just want to be known as a practitioner.  I will never get this stuff down to perfection, and I will never be a "master" in my opinion.  Always just a student.  Let others start new styles or get all the awards--fine with me.  I'll just keep on hammering away at the basics until I gotta spar with the Reaper.....
> 
> Peace-- *


Yes I knew you were kidding. And it is a good topic to play with because there are so many frauds out there.  I just wanted to make sure that the seniors also knew i had been playing saying I was going to promote myself.  Although Darth Seig does have a nice ring to it........Still trying to get that choke from across the room down.......Blue Lightening form the finger tips is cool too....


----------



## Rob_Broad

Having no political affiliations can be both daunting and uplifting at the same time.  It is hard to figure out what all you should be doing with out the support of others.  On the other side of the coin there are less hoops to jump through.

I myself am leaning towards the IKKO for my few students, but I will wait til they are ready to commit to joining an organization before going any farther.


----------



## Michael Billings

Good decision to go with the IKKO. 

Meanwhile ... oh, yeah! Yank my chain will you Dennis ... got me again!!!! You know I want to say Bite Me, but I am way too respectful for that.

Later,
-Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

Oh Michael you crack me up.  roflmao........ well, I can't say too much to you anymore since you are way to big and strong for me to deal with anymore...... but there was a day when I was younger..... ah the memories...

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

I think this is still within the scope of this thread ...

How much difference in skill level do y'all expect within
the different levels of black?  I know there's a whole
bunch of factors that apply, but generally speaking,
would it be expected that a 2nd have more skill than
a 1st?  Or a 5th over a 4th?


----------



## Goldendragon7

After 4th Degree Black and depending upon age..... I don't think "Skill" is the correct term as much as  knowledge and ability to transmit it to future generations is.

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *After 4th Degree Black and depending upon age..... I don't think "Skill" is the correct term as much as  knowledge and ability to transmit it to future generations is.
> *



Would you (or anyone for that matter) advise those who don't 
strive or anything beyond first black to keep going?  I know
some TKD'ers that are 2nd black, and they just love to teach.
I even asked "why so long at 2nd?" and his reply that anything
above 1st was just about a "pissing match" (TX TKD'er  ) and
that he just wanted to focus on teaching, and improving his
own skills.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> Would you advise those who don't strive or anything beyond first black to keep going?
> *



Of course....... But that is your instructors job....... let him/her promote you when they feel you deserve it....... not when you "strive" for it.

All your life you should "strive" to be the best you can be and to constantly learn no matter what age or rank.  Let your instructor "reward" you if and when you are deserving.... in the meantime....

GET BACK TO WORK!!

:rofl: :asian:


----------



## Seig

Therein lies the problem.  My instructor seems to be more interested in how much coinage I can put on his doorstep than how well I am teaching or what I am learning.   I don't begrudge the man money, but I am finding it difficult to reward someone for doing nothing other than having something I want.  I will not "Buy" my belt.  I asked him what he wanted from me to help me reach my next level and I got ambiguous replies.  When I agreed that i would meet them, as long as certain things were clarified, I received no answer at all, it's been over a month.


----------



## Michael Billings

I started by writing about the money because I am outraged what people get for their money some places, and they don't even know what they are not getting.  Then I remembered why I was posting and had to insert this.

For me, there is a qualitative change in the way you move between 1st Black and 3rd Black.  Yes, there is material and the ability to share this, but for me it is about that relaxed whipping, explosive Kenpo that made Mr. Parker so unique. Tom Kelly, Bob Liles, Dennis Conatser, Howard Silva, Frank Trejo, Tommy Burks, Bryan Hawkins, Dian Tanaka, Barbara Hale, etc., etc., etc. move explosively, without effort and it is sooooooo impressive.  Yes, I can sorta emulate this a little now, but there is a very clear line that is crossed in watching my 2nd Blacks develop. They cannot test for 3rd until I am satisfied with HOW they move.  What they know can always be worked on, but that shift to relaxed power is what I look for. 

You know, it ain't about the money for me ... but I have to keep the doors open so I have people to train with.  I think it is abhorant the way TKD charges for the test $45, then the Belt $10, then the certificate $15, for a grand total of $70 bucks per test, and that is not for an advanced rank.  

I have a mom in class whose son does TKD and that is what she pays.  She was plesantly suprised by my prices, but then I am a private club, with only 30 or so members, and not open but 3 days a week.  Nationwide, Austin's rates are in the middle range, not like California $100+/month, but we are more than $35/mo.  I charge $70 - $85 per month.  Testing is $20 - $30 buck per belt until Brown, then I gig you for a whopping $75.  

Depending on who is on the Board, whether you test at camp, or I have to bring someone in, Black testing varies, with the minimum being about $175, of which the majority goes to my association.

Just some rambling thoughts,
-Michael


----------



## Kirk

My instructor charges $20, period.  Rank isn't an issue.
We get our new belt, a NICE certificate, and a packet containing
all you're required to know for the next belt.  Not only do I not
begrudge my instructor making money, I think he's probably not
making enough for his time, on test days.


----------



## Klondike93

You get to black belt and don't really care about getting to the next rank, but want to continue to learn the material? Is this a bad thing? Should you continue to have to test just to learn new material? Just some random thoughts about ranking.





:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Yes, after your 1st Black Belt..... that is not the end of the world.... it is not the end all to learning.... it is not the free ticket to do as you please and run around hog wild and learn what ever  you want to with out guidence.  1st Degree Black (as it was "ideally" designed was just that of recgonition as a teacher and a beginner at that.  Not until 3rd Degree are you considered a  "Head Instructor" which at this point (by original design) you then should get a freeer reign to "Break out".  Even then, there is much to learn and we all need mentors and someone to answer to.  We already are experiencing what the effects of  what happens when Black Belts run wild with out controls....... LOL

:asian:


----------



## Ronin

Most of them that run wild dont have enough solid foundation put in their two cents. ive know guys with 2 year black belts that run around bragging how they are masters of their styles


----------



## Goldendragon7

lol

:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Yes, after your 1st Black Belt..... that is not the end of the world.... it is not the end all to learning.... it is not the free ticket to do as you please and run around hog wild and learn what ever  you want to with out guidence.  1st Degree Black (as it was "ideally" designed was just that of recgonition as a teacher and a beginner at that.  Not until 3rd Degree are you considered a  "Head Instructor" which at this point (by original design) you then should get a freeer reign to "Break out".  Even then, there is much to learn and we all need mentors and someone to answer to.  We already are experiencing what the effects of  what happens when Black Belts run wild with out controls....... LOL
> 
> :asian: *


I do beleive I am in the market for a new mentor


----------



## tonbo

Reading Klondike's post brought up something I've noticed at our school:  most of the Black Belts don't actually worry about testing after getting their Black.  In fact, some of them actually try to *avoid* testing whenever they can.  In most cases, they just don't worry about it, and aren't concerned with the rank.  They work hard at what they do, and enjoy it to the fullest......they just don't feel the need to test.  Makes me laugh to hear a 4th degree giving all kinds of excuses as to why he isn't ready.....makes me think of my own test for Black....:rofl: 

Also, I don't think our school is in any danger of having guys break off and open their own schools.  We all feel like we still need to learn what we don't know, before we can begin learning all the other stuff.  Heh....at this rate, I think I am just about ready to test for my white belt.....:rofl: 

Peace--


----------



## Klondike93

What is the reason for testing GD? Is it to put the person under stress to see how they respond or is there some other grand scheme to it?

Until last month I hadn't tested since 1989 I think it was. I found it more fun than stressful, so it got me to wondering about why the need to test after reaching black.




:asian:


----------



## Sigung86

Dennis,

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment... Everyone!  Note!  This is not necessarily my opinion ... Just so you understand that before you start firing rockets and flames at me.

Why do we need to test, at all?  In the early days, SGM Parker simply gave out rank as he felt that people were ready.  By that time he knew how people reacted to stress, what they knew and where they were going.  Why should we subject everyone to the testing, which can be a humiliation, if it is done right, and the person isn't on top of his/her knowledge? 

Further, I don't care how knowledgeable some folk are, they just don't test very well.  And if that is the case, and they can't pass a test for whatever reason, should they never be allowed to advance?

Whatsmore ... Testing of handicapped people ... If they must be tested, then they should be tested at the same level as everyone else, otherwise, that becomes very unfair to everyone, or you should change the parameters for the test so that it is inclusive of everyone, both handicapped, and non-handicapped.  If this is done .. Does it make the testing less useful, because it would, taking the handicaps into account, make them less effective for non-handicapped students?

What happens if you have someone who is a student, who has a less than high school or even a grade school education, who is not necessarily well versed in original thought or capable of putting thoughts down in a cogent manner, and therefore, can not make up a very well written thesis for his/her Black Belt.  Do we then make that a lesser requirement, and if we do, is that fair to the folks who have worked very diligently and with great effort to create a useful thesis?

As I said, I do not anticipate any flames here, as this is simply put forth for discussion purposes.  I'm hoping tho get some inciteful comments here, and not just from Dennis!  We've discussed most of this before.     

Take care and be well,

Dan "Advocate for the Devil" Farmer


----------



## Goldendragon7

IMHO, testing is part of what I call "The Process", If you get to Black then just "learn" thru multiple ranks.... what message is that for the lower ranks.....?    I realize that rank doesn't make the person the person makes the rank, however I feel since you started the game.....  why change rules at any given point.  Why not at green or brown...... same end result....... right...... but don't make Black stop at 1st  Black or even 2nd Black.  I just think its a bad example for the lower students and it robs your instructor the right or privilege to advance you in the art for future generations correctly and properly by progressing "thru the ranks" (which may be a lost art today) and leaving a strong legacy. 

Mr. Parker  promoted me to 3rd, 4th and 5th Black of which I was promoted to 5th in 1987.  I had not perused a promotion after Mr. Parker's Passing, in fact turned  down 3 offers to test for various personal reasons..... I was just recently promoted by Mr. Steve LaBounty this past September.  Even I was setting a bad example to some degree (even though my personal reasons I think were more than valid), but it was time to move on thanks to Mr. LaBounty I was humbled to accept his promotion (a Martial Artist I hold in very High Esteem among the current field of options).

At any rate I continued to explore Kenpo the past 15 years with or without a promotion....... but I had no 4th or 5th degrees pushing me for promotion anyway so it   really didn't matter, today is a different scene with several higher ranks now studying so it changes the complexion of things.

I hope that clarifies MY PERSONAL VIEWS I realize others may differ.........

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> 
> 1)  Why do we need to test, at all?  In the early days, SGM Parker simply gave out rank as he felt that people were ready.
> 
> 2)  I don't care how knowledgeable some folk are, they just don't test very well.  And if that is the case, and they can't pass a test for whatever reason, should they never be allowed to advance?
> 
> 3)  Testing of handicapped people ... If they must be tested, then they should be tested at the same level as everyone else, otherwise, that becomes very unfair to everyone, or you should change the parameters for the test so that it is inclusive of everyone, both handicapped, and non-handicapped.  If this is done .. Does
> 
> 4)  What happens if you have someone who is a student, who has a less than high school or even a grade school education, who is not necessarily well versed in original thought or capable of putting thoughts down in a cogent manner, and therefore, can not make up a very well written thesis for his/her Black Belt.
> 
> *



1)  Right and as we evolved and became more organized..... testing was one "tool" that found its way into the system.  For many it is a goal to set and reach for.    (I'll lecture you on goals some other time at great length to prove its usefulness LOL  
Also we now have a difference between a "Promotion and a Test" both are still used today .... I do both for various reasons for different people.

2)  Tailoring to an individual is one thing as a True Black Belt we learn during this "Process" (if taught as originally designed) we certainly need to either help the individual to conquer his shortcomings (we don't do that by hiding our heads in the sand) or by other means to boost their self confidence.  Remember ... it is kenpo..... Its meant to be tough..... fists and feet hurt when hit, we need to build toughness and that starts with the toughest warrior to conquer ........ YOURSELF and your all your fears!

3)  Once again..... we have general standards but along the road as we progress through this Process...... we use these types of opportunities to instruct our juniors how to promote, what to allow or not, and to justify hard work and a person that puts forth maximum effort to achieve his/her personal goals.  I have seen some "challenged" folks do much better and show MORE effort and desire than the "NATURALS AND SUPER STARS" all very,  very important issues to examine and discuss with your junior and senior instructors in developing your Philosophy...(oppssss another long lecture to help assist you in the complete understanding of my viewpoints)... hee hee..... (Man, I just realized that Dan, you are gonna keep me busy for the rest of your life bubba) ):rofl: 

4)  And once again.... we help the individual to learn the skills that he/she needs to accomplish goals just like everyone else, but at the same time only requiring their Maximum effort for their personal profile.  If you are a college grad ~ then I would expect that level of work........ if just an 8th grade education..... then work appropriate for your education level and experience.  No more no less.

Now that you have looked into my cranium.......  I need a apple.
lol
:jediduel: 

:asian:


----------



## donald

I know that some quit after reaching black, and some just stop seeking to advance. Although those who quit looking to advance are probably not going to remain active very long. At least in the school where they were promoted. I always thought testing after black was because there is more to learn? I realize that the BASICS at 1st black should be preety much mastered, but are'nt there more ADVANCED techniques, principals, and such to be absorbed at this level? I realize that there are political considerations at the higher levels of black, but they are'nt an obstacle at the lower levels of black, are they? 

Salute  :asian:


----------



## tonbo

I think there is *plenty* more to learn after Black.  In fact, I tend to look at Black as an "advanced white belt":  you are now ready to learn the art, having put in the time to get the basics somewhat down.

Essentially, at our school, you start over again at Black.  You go back and take a look at some of the first techniques you learned as a yellow belt, and start applying various advanced concepts to them.  Things change a little bit, as now you are able to see more options, and understand deeper meanings to the moves.  It is a whole new world.

As far as testing, most of the "tests" I have seen were little more than demonstrations for friends and family.  The belts are awarded ceremoniously after the students have gone through an "official" test.  Basically, as long as you are giving your all and not intentionally trying to screw up, you will earn your belt.  However, the evaluations that lead up to the test are where you actually earn your belt--the week before the "test", people are evaluated in class.  Especially with the advanced belts, the instructors are watching you each class, and know how you tend to move, etc.  They know when you are ready, regardless of how you perform under evaluation conditions.  

I personally don't think that rank after 1st degree is "honorary".  I think there is SO much to learn, that there is always something that can be passed on.  I also think that part of the higher Black ranks is dependent on what you give back to the MA community.  Are you a 6th degree who hasn't taught before, or hasn't taught in years?  Are you working on advanced concepts?  Are you finding and sharing deeper meanings in the techniques?  As long as you are working in the art, I think you have the opportunity to grow.  I am sure there are "advanced" Black rank holders out there who are little more than honorary, but the majority of them have truly earned where they are.

Sorry for the ramble.......

Peace--


----------



## Klondike93

I like that part, it makes sense. I never thought about like that.




:asian:


----------



## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> 1)  Right and as we evolved and became more organized..... testing was one "tool" that found its way into the system.  For many it is a goal to set and reach for.    (I'll lecture you on goals some other time at great length to prove its usefulness LOL
> Also we now have a difference between a "Promotion and a Test" both are still used today .... I do both for various reasons for different people.
> 
> 2)  Tailoring to an individual is one thing as a True Black Belt we learn during this "Process" (if taught as originally designed) we certainly need to either help the individual to conquer his shortcomings (we don't do that by hiding our heads in the sand) or by other means to boost their self confidence.  Remember ... it is kenpo..... Its meant to be tough..... fists and feet hurt when hit, we need to build toughness and that starts with the toughest warrior to conquer ........ YOURSELF and your all your fears!
> 
> 3)  Once again..... we have general standards but along the road as we progress through this Process...... we use these types of opportunities to instruct our juniors how to promote, what to allow or not, and to justify hard work and a person that puts forth maximum effort to achieve his/her personal goals.  I have seen some "challenged" folks do much better and show MORE effort and desire than the "NATURALS AND SUPER STARS" all very,  very important issues to examine and discuss with your junior and senior instructors in developing your Philosophy...(oppssss another long lecture to help assist you in the complete understanding of my viewpoints)... hee hee..... (Man, I just realized that Dan, you are gonna keep me busy for the rest of your life bubba) ):rofl:
> 
> 4)  And once again.... we help the individual to learn the skills that he/she needs to accomplish goals just like everyone else, but at the same time only requiring their Maximum effort for their personal profile.  If you are a college grad ~ then I would expect that level of work........ if just an 8th grade education..... then work appropriate for your education level and experience.  No more no less.
> 
> Now that you have looked into my cranium.......  I need a apple.
> lol
> :jediduel:
> 
> :asian: *



Dennis, Darlin' little brother ...

Your pomposity is showing just the tiniest, eensie-weensiest, inky-binky little bit! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by tonbo _
> 
> *Reading Klondike's post brought up something I've noticed at our school:  most of the Black Belts don't actually worry about testing after getting their Black.  In fact, some of them actually try to *avoid* testing whenever they can.  In most cases, they just don't worry about it, and aren't concerned with the rank.  They work hard at what they do, and enjoy it to the fullest......they just don't feel the need to test.  Makes me laugh to hear a 4th degree giving all kinds of excuses as to why he isn't ready.....makes me think of my own test for Black....:rofl:
> 
> Also, I don't think our school is in any danger of having guys break off and open their own schools.  We all feel like we still need to learn what we don't know, before we can begin learning all the other stuff.  Heh....at this rate, I think I am just about ready to test for my white belt.....:rofl:
> 
> Peace-- *



Since those after 1st black are extensions of prior techniques,
there are some who view the curriculumn to black a complete
curriculumn.  They say that the extensions are more to drive the
point in to the ground.


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment... Everyone!  Note!  This is not necessarily my opinion ... Just so you understand that before you start firing rockets and flames at me.
> Why do we need to test, at all?  In the early days, SGM Parker simply gave out rank as he felt that people were ready.  By that time he knew how people reacted to stress, what they knew and where they were going.*



American Kenpoists have taken _testing_ and turned it into (what they see as justifiable) hazing. But to be fair, they're not alone in the Martial arts world at it.

Really, as if on one single day anything someone does suddenly makes them rather than a culmination of years of work.

I love to hear stories of how hard people's testing was. _"I worked for hours in a horse stance. Had to break tons of boards. My test was 24 hours long with no food or water. I have to fight a man eating gerbil!"_ Then I proceed to ask them what particular brand of stupid they are? I know a Black Belt who tells me they stood for 2 hours in a horse stance before they even began their test. Should I mention how they got their butt handed to them when they used what they knew?

Try to ask some of them why they do this and they say, _"My instructor did it so we do it."_ This is the same attitude that people publically berate fraternity guys with when initiation rites come up. And don't you kid yourself into thinking it's not an initiation of sorts. It becomes a sort of test. Your initiation/test was tough so you make the next guy suffer the same way you did or worse because, _"Hey, I went through it and I did ok."_ Except that no one stops to think that maybe the guy testing isn't you. Maybe he has different reactions. Maybe he doesn't feel the same way you do about it. But if you did it it's gotta be ok right? I mean, if this guy doesn't do it then he's not really black belt material is he?

If you want to test, then by all means do so. But don't kid yourself into thinking that it's all for the greater good. American Kenpo talks a lot about tailoring to the individual. Except when it suits them. A lot of arts are getting this way. Pushing someone to their limits because you think they should go there. Hey! Lookout Mr. Bad Guy! I stood in a horse stance for 2 hours! You better be careful of me!

I have to stop. I can taste bile.
:soapbox:


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## Seig

Gou, I want to pick on one thing you said.  Just one. "Pushing some one their limits....."  If someone won't push tjemselves to their limit on their own, maybe as an instructor, you owe it to them to.  If someone never finds out what their limits are, they are deluding themselves and will find out in a worst case scenario.  Besides, how can you ever overcome your limits and extend to new ones if you aren't pushed?:asian:


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## Klondike93

I guess Gou doesn't like testing very much eh?


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

reality check for "some" that are out there that do exactly what he outlines.  Not "all" American Kenpo Instructors are as stupid as what Gou is talking about, but they certainly are out there! 

I don't take offense to any of What Gou says because I don't resemble those remarks, :rofl:  but with the lack of controls of individuals in the martial Arts we do get these guys using the "testing process" only to entertain themselves and misuse its true purpose.

Reality Check ....... Instructors keep in mind that testing is just that a "check up" and a revealing or display of talent or skill to the board as to where the student is at this time, I also use it to acquire information from other instructors as to opinions of skill of the student and comments that may help me direct the student to further better him/herself.

Keep it real and useful not a mockery!

IMHO,
 :asian:


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## Rich Parsons

Hi All,

I know that testing can be taken to limits
beyond their desired results. What I mean is
that the hazing does occur, but in many schools
it is chance for people to have one day for
all the friends and family to stop by and see
what the students have learned.

As for pushing, people yes you can push people
and push them every class, slowly, not all at
once during a test.

I have a student who stutters real bad in front
of people, I make sure all of the testing
board has had a chance to ask him any of their
questions a couple of weeks before the test
one on one. One could say the student should
practicing speaking out more in public. He does
and takes professional classes for that.

Yet, back to Gou point there are many people out
there who say I went to "Some other country" to
test. Like the further you went the harder the
test must have been. I trained for weeks before
the test. Question, are you not training all 
the time, not just before the test? 

I have an instructor, in another system, that 
gives no rank. He does not test. He will let
me know when I can teach others. I am happy
with this.

Peace be with everyone.

Rich


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## Klondike93

Are there test boards for color belt test as well? In TKD when I tested as a color belt it was just in front of the head instructor. When I tested for black it was in front of a board. All of my kenpo tests have been in front of just the head instructor too but I'm only at blue right now. 


:asian:


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## Rich Parsons

Hi Klondike93,

Well in Modern Arnis, in the Flint Michigan
area it has been up to the school owner for
the color belt tests. In the club I teach at,
I am the main instructor, there are two other Lakan Tatlo, 3rd degree BB that show up and
are always there with me for tests. The Club
technically is that of my instructor, Master
Jim Power. He is also there as well as one to
two or three other Black Belts who 'grew up'
with us and have moved away but are available
for testing given notice. 

So, the answer is yes, my experience is that
there are testing boards.

I have also been invited to be a guest instructor
on some other testing boards for a local TKD
school.

Yet, I do know that many local schools in many
different arts just have the head instructor
give the Rank.

Now not to confuse the issue, some people have
said that only rank can be obtained by attending
and testing at a 4-day camp. The Local Flint
Modern Arnis Clubs have had the power to promote
at color belt since 1979-1980, and Black Belt
since the early 80's also. So, even in the same
art there are not always consistent 'rules'.

Best of luck

Rich


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## Goldendragon7

each to his own I guess.........

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

Would you expect them to know much of the AK material or not?


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## Michael Billings

Gee, I certainly hope not.
-Michael


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## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Would you expect them to know much of the AK material or not?
> *



Personaly I have always thought the only 10th in American Kenpo could be Ed Parker Sr, so the whole 10th thing just doesn't sit well with me.

I'll take one of you "lesser" ranked instructors over a so called "10th" any day. 



:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

Instructors of a lesser God..... 

this could be a movie.....

:asian:


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## Rainman

> Goldendragon7 Would you expect them to know much of the AK material or not?



Would that be ten yellow stripes or the red blocks?  I've only seen ten yellow stripes and somthin' or another sokeship 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

Well, AK has no yellow or gold stripes...... and  I  dont know who would soke me.......

lol
:asian:


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## Rainman

American Kenpo Bujitsu in Norman Oklahoma

10 gold stripes:drinkbeer :drink2tha 

 




:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

Not under ED Parker............

:asian:


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## arnisador

I can't believe that this thread is still on topic after 17 pages--it must be some kind of record! Threads tend to wander long before that.

I myself like the system where there's a single 10th degree at the top--sort of a military-style organizational chart.


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## Goldendragon7

It kinda seems like the real way it should be... doesn't it...... lol
:asian:


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## Rainman

Ok go here

(URL removed at request of poster--see http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=25024#post25024 for URL. --Arnisador)


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

whats there?


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## Rainman

They used to have video clips, strange stuff- they did five swords and some other AK stuff.  Maybe a tracy spinoff?


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7




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## Rainman

Oh, my link didn't work

try this 
(URL removed at request of poster--see http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=25024#post25024 for URL. --Arnisador)


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## Rainman

TO the moderator kill the links they didn't go to where the web page is.   supposed to be american kenpo bujutsu but the web page doesnt' match the link 

Don't know what happened I can click it and it works from my history page with the link I supplied.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

wow..... singles adds....

:rofl:


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## arnisador

Could you have meant to type angelfire not anglefire?

Let me know, then I'll edit the linkls as requested, either fixing or removing them.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## Klondike93

> Could you have meant to type angelfire not anglefire?



I got it to work by doing that.

:asian:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> * I got it to work by doing that. *



*Rainman*, shall I make that edit?

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## Goldendragon7

http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/americankenpobu/

:asian:


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## Rainman

Yes arnisador please remove them 

Thankyou
Rainman


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## arnisador

I have removed the URLs and left a pointer to the message in this thread with the correct URL. Happy Surfing!

Incidentally, we do not read every thread so feel free to e-mail or PM such requests in the future.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## Rainman

> wow..... singles adds....



:hammer:  Order Oder here, sheesh.  Now that you found that site what did y'all think?

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

I thought Kenpo had the most 10th Degrees ......... after seeing that site or group of sites....... they leave us in the dust!

:asian:


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## Rainman

Did you view the vid clips?   Been on the mat with 'em they thought I was a grappler...    NO forms, and no going backwards... they are decent people though.   I will never jump off high buildings again.  I will never jump off high buildings again.  I will never jump off high buildings again.  ETC.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

but the overall grades....... well.......

:asian:


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## Rainman

Did ya ever have someone do a tek on you- and during that time you figured out if ya grabbed them by the hair and threw them down your turn would come faster?  Or wear yourself out doing california rolls while they were trying to put you in a crucifix?   So much for degrees of lethality...  So How is the AKSC doing?  More people interested in board certification from the members?

:asian:


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## Sigung86

I beleive that I, as a mere 6th, will now close my hands and say no more.:asian: :rofl: :asian: 

Dan


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## Goldendragon7

Man for Dan to wash his hands it must be getting close to hot water!  lol  (you're not being considered for a soke yet are you)


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## Sigung86

Dennis,

I will nominate you for sokeship and a Black Belt with a gold lamé stripe running the length of same.  All I ask in return is that you nominate me for sokeship and a Black Belt with a gold lamé stripe running the length of same.

Barring that, I will buy you one trip through a Chinese Buffet in Kansas City.

How say you Oh Golden Dragon?

Hot Water?  Indeed!  When have  you ever known me to be afraid of a little hot water, or even political hot water?  Except, possibly for that time in Tallahassee, when I got caught wearing the Gorilla Costume!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan


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## Goldendragon7

there were a whole lot of 10th degrees on that site....... Geezzz.......... I guess Kenpo does NOT have more 10ths than other arts......:rofl:


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## Seig

Then we better get to work!  :rofl: Seriously, I think we need a lot less 10ths.  That whole 10th thing is leaving a real sour taste right about now.


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## Sigung86

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Then we better get to work!  :rofl: Seriously, I think we need a lot less 10ths.  That whole 10th thing is leaving a real sour taste right about now. *



Hey Seig!

How's 'bout we make up an 11th degree. It could be a Red belt with black degree stripes.  Then we could show that website who's really in charge! :rofl: 

Dan


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## Goldendragon7

a 10th Degree I hear........

:asian:


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *a 10th Degree I hear........
> 
> :asian: *




I heard that too.  But I also heard he didn't want it.  I heard the
same about Mr Trejo, someone gave him a 10th, he didn't ask
for it, didn't want it.  All this info isn't even 2nd hand, more like
3rd or 4th, but if it's true WHAFCK???  Why are people handing
out 10ths??


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## GouRonin

I spoke with Huk and asked him about it.

GR- _"I hear you're a 10th now?"_

H- _"They gave me one."_

GR- _"What do you think about it?"_

H- _"It was nice"_

GR- _"So if someone asks you about it what will you say?"_

H- _"I don't know. Hopefully they just won't ask."_

GR- _"See you on the floor in Canada?"_

H- _"Sure."_

...something tells me that he's not too worked up about it.


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## Klondike93

My instructor told me about this last week so I went to CKF online and there is a story there about it.

Here's a link to the story Birthday Bash  and here is part of the story:

Before Mr. Planas started, Mr. Ed Parker Jr. got up, with urging from the other Senior Ranks there, to announce that against his wishes, Mr. Planas was being elected up to 10th Degree Black Belt. There was much applause, and Edmund continued on, with all of us in agreement, about Huk's dedication to the Art, to his students and to Mr. Parkers memories. About how he has never been one to further his own aims, but to help others long their own.


:asian:


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## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *My instructor told me about this last week so I went to CKF online and there is a story there about it.
> 
> Here's a link to the story Birthday Bash  and here is part of the story:
> 
> Before Mr. Planas started, Mr. Ed Parker Jr. got up, with urging from the other Senior Ranks there, to announce that against his wishes, Mr. Planas was being elected up to 10th Degree Black Belt. There was much applause, and Edmund continued on, with all of us in agreement, about Huk's dedication to the Art, to his students and to Mr. Parkers memories. About how he has never been one to further his own aims, but to help others long their own.
> 
> 
> :asian: *




Was Ed Parker Jr. also responsible for granting Chuck Sullivan his 10th degree as well? I saw on his site that he is also referring to himself as Senior Grandmaster- though i thought the SGM was reserved for Ed Parker only 



"GR- "So if someone asks you about it what will you say?"

H- "I don't know. Hopefully they just won't ask."

- does that mean that Huk is going to take the 5th when asked about the 10th?:shrug: 

peace.


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## Klondike93

I hadn't even noticed that he was being refered to as SGM, so it goes back to my original statement, there shouldn't be any 10th's except Ed Parker Sr.


:asian:


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## tarabos

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Was Ed Parker Jr. also responsible for granting Chuck Sullivan his 10th degree as well? I saw on his site that he is also referring to himself as Senior Grandmaster- though i thought the SGM was reserved for Ed Parker only
> 
> *



I'm no authority on what Chuck Sullivan does with his business, but I believe he refers to himself as the SGM of the IKCA, his own kenpo style/organization...not of Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate. So far to my knowledge no one has taken it upon themselves to take the rank of SGM of EPAK....(though I wouldn't be shocked if someone has).


----------



## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by tarabos _
> 
> *
> 
> I'm no authority on what Chuck Sullivan does with his business, but I believe he refers to himself as the SGM of the IKCA, his own kenpo style/organization...not of Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate. So far to my knowledge no one has taken it upon themselves to take the rank of SGM of EPAK....(though I wouldn't be shocked if someone has). *




if you have a Senior Grandmaster that would logically call for some other Grandmasters to exist in the IKCA... does anyone know how many Grandmasters they have?


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## Klondike93

The reason for the SGM moniker in the first place was to seperate the creator from others that were calling themselves Grandmaster.

So when you say Senior Grandmaster you refer to Mr. Parker and with all respects to Mr. Sullivan he shouldn't use that title.


:asian:


----------



## tarabos

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> if you have a Senior Grandmaster that would logically call for some other Grandmasters to exist in the IKCA... does anyone know how many Grandmasters they have? *



Vic LeRoux, the co-founder of the IKCA is a 9th degree now I believe, so i guess that isn't what you would consider a grandmaster, but everyone has their own definition of that now. 

i personally don't have an opinion on this chuck sullivan thing either way, i'm not trying to defend or deflate mr. sullivan's credibility or whether or not he deserves to be called SGM. i just don't care all too much, because even if he is the first to call himself SGM, i can garuntee he won't be the last. and it's pretty pointless to debate who should or should not be what.

there's got to be a member of the IKCA on this board somewhere though...he or she can probably shed a little more light than i can on the subject.


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## Goldendragon7

Look on the bright side.........

EVERYONE now has the 10th Degree within reach............
:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Look on the bright side.........
> 
> EVERYONE now has the 10th Degree within reach............
> :rofl:
> 
> :asian:
> *



yes that may be true- but  it's about time some one protected these grand men/women from the unruly kenpo mobs who insist on tying these big bright red stripes around their humble waists...:soapbox: 

and who knows who'll be next-- ( i've been working on my humility speech for 25 years now... how's yours coming?...)


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _*
> I've been working on my humility speech for 25 years now... how's yours coming?...)
> *



Hee hee....... well it's only about 30 pages at this point..... :rofl: 
:asian:


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## tonbo

Well, let's see......

By the time I reach a point where I would even be *considered* for a 10th degree, I would have to have someone make my speech *for* me.  

I would be way too old and shaky to actually make the speech myself.  That kinda stuff happens when you are over 150 years old, you know...... 

10th degree?  ME??  Yeah.  I think it will happen.  

But pigs will fly, first.   

Peace--


----------



## KenpoDave

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Oh man, you are really looking to start trouble aren't you!!
> 
> Hmmmm No, I can't think of any high ranking guys ever getting demoted.
> 
> *



There is a guy on the Tracy tree 4th dan page (I think) with "Rank Revoked" beside his name.  I believe his name is George Elmer.

Dave


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## Goldendragon7

Now he must be real bad ......... for that to happen!!


----------

