# about breakfalks



## Runs With Fire (Jan 31, 2017)

Can someone describe to me a few good reasons why I might want to introduce breakfalks into my Judo work?  I do alot of basic judo throws in a self defense program and in Krav Maga. I've never taught it.  Didn't learn it in my training.   My instructors viewed it as unnecessary,  useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats.
   Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved? especially sprawled out in an immediately useless position?


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## frank raud (Jan 31, 2017)

Maybe because being thrown without knowing how to land is dangerous. You took judo and didn't learn breakfalls? Most people I know who have trained will say breakfalls are the one skill that have learned that has the most real world application. I know I have slipped and wiped out on ice multiple times and been saved from serious damage by using my breakfall skills.


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## Runs With Fire (Jan 31, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Maybe because being thrown without knowing how to land is dangerous. You took judo and didn't learn breakfalls? Most people I know who have trained will say breakfalls are the one skill that have learned that has the most real world application. I know I have slipped and wiped out on ice multiple times and been saved from serious damage by using my breakfall skills.


 how do breakfalls help? how do they work? What is the methodology/ philosophy?  What is the science to it?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> how do breakfalls help? how do they work? What is the methodology/ philosophy?  What is the science to it?



I think the basic idea is that energy spread over a larger area causes less damage than energy concentrated in a small area, or on a vulnerable area like a spine, hip, or shoulder.  I would hate to break my arm, but I'd rather break an arm than my back.

Think about a bullet-proof vest.  It does not work by being invulnerable to bullets.  It works by being able to spread the impact of the bullet over a much larger area.  Therefore, a person shot in the chest with a bullet that does not penetrate the vest gets a big painful bruise.  But they don't get ventilated by the bullet.

I also think you don't really understand breakfalls if you think they only involve slapping the mat with one's arms.  One learns how to fall, which includes rolling the spine, falling on one's side, and spreading impact over time and space.

This was just published the other day in the NY Times, you might enjoy reading it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/well/move/the-right-way-to-fall.html

It's really a big deal and you should learn how to fall.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> how do breakfalls help? how do they work? What is the methodology/ philosophy?  What is the science to it?



I am simply amazed.  How do breakfalls help/work?  They spread out the impact.  What is the methodology?  They can be done in several ways, usually depending on how a particular art thinks it best.  What is the science to it?  Again, spreading out the impact so only one part of your body doesn't have to take all the impact.  You use arms and feet, in combination if possible, so each body part takes a portion of the impact, no all on a shoulder, arm, or leg/foot.

It's sort of like a parachute landing fall (PLF) taught to the American military.  First the balls of the feet, then the lower leg, then the thigh, the buttocks, and lastly the shoulder.

A breakfall also spreads out the energy of the fall so you aren't damaging anything.

I can't imagine what type of Judo you were taught that didn't include breakfalls at the beginning so you could be thrown without injury.

EDIT:  I see Bill quoted an article that explains things well just before I posted.  My only surprise was an Advanced Airborne School.  It makes sense I guess.  Afik, the US Army only has one Basic Airborne School, now at Ft Benning, GA.  That has been there just about as long as the US Army has had airborne troops.  But the 82nd Airborne Division at Ft Bragg, and the 101st Airborne Division at Ft Campbell, KY, used to have their own Basic Airborne courses, as well as jumpmaster, senior and master jumpmasters courses as well.


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## Runs With Fire (Jan 31, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think the basic idea is that energy spread over a larger area causes less damage than energy concentrated in a small area, or on a vulnerable area like a spine, hip, or shoulder.  I would hate to break my arm, but I'd rather break an arm than my back.
> 
> Think about a bullet-proof vest.  It does not work by being invulnerable to bullets.  It works by being able to spread the impact of the bullet over a much larger area.  Therefore, a person shot in the chest with a bullet that does not penetrate the vest gets a big painful bruise.  But they don't get ventilated by the bullet.
> 
> ...


that's interesting.  I do believe I know how to fall.  I was taught to roll out of it, unless you can't, in that case we took it flat across the back and shoulders.   I can fall fine, I just never "slapped the mat".  It's the slapping part that I have doubts on.  I have trouble seeing how skinnny arms have enough surface area to make a noticeable difference on something as large as a back.


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## Runs With Fire (Jan 31, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I am simply amazed.  How do breakfalls help/work?  They spread out the impact.  What is the methodology?  They can be done in several ways, usually depending on how a particular art thinks it best.  What is the science to it?  Again, spreading out the impact so only one part of your body doesn't have to take all the impact.  You use arms and feet, in combination if possible, so each body part takes a portion of the impact, no all on a shoulder, arm, or leg/foot.
> 
> It's sort of like a parachute landing fall (PLF) taught to the American military.  First the balls of the feet, then the lower leg, then the thigh, the buttocks, and lastly the shoulder.
> 
> ...


  I was taught to roll, or fall flat on the back with knees in/feet up, chin tucked, elbows pulled in tight and forearms/ hands ready for action.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I was taught to roll, or fall flat on the back with knees in/feet up, chin tucked, elbows pulled in tight and forearms/ hands ready for action.



So what happens if you are hip thrown?  Is that the only breakfall you were taught?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> that's interesting.  I do believe I know how to fall.  I was taught to roll out of it, unless you can't, in that case we took it flat across the back and shoulders.   I can fall fine, I just never "slapped the mat".  It's the slapping part that I have doubts on.  I have trouble seeing how skinnny arms have enough surface area to make a noticeable difference on something as large as a back.



Slapping the mat is only a small part of learning to fall.  Maybe you just heard about it more.

The slap isn't meant to break the fall by itself.  As I understand it, slapping when falling backwards is the motion that gets your arms to hit before your falling back, and that's the part that matters.  The back still takes a hit, but the act of slapping backwards distributes part of the force across the arms, shoulders, and puts the back in alignment to take the hit squarely across the shoulders as well.  

A big part of breakfalls is also learning not to let your head bounce off the pavement and not biting off your tongue.  Just sayin'.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 31, 2017)

Biggest reason people get hurt falling IMHO?  They fear looking like a dork.  Falling is an unnatural act in society, and it conveys images of weakness or even (in some) unmanliness.  Falling properly looks like you're giving up and fainting, almost.  People should fall that way, but men often resist it because they fear looking wimpy.  Seriously.


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## Paul_D (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> My instructors viewed it as unnecessary,  useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats.


They're not dangerous on the pavement when you slip on snow.


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## frank raud (Jan 31, 2017)

Is the martial arts concept of a breakfall scientifically sound? - Quora


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## frank raud (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I was taught to roll, or fall flat on the back with knees in/feet up, chin tucked, elbows pulled in tight and forearms/ hands ready for action.


So you were taught to breakfall?


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## Runs With Fire (Jan 31, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> So what happens if you are hip thrown?  Is that the only breakfall you were taught?


 that is our number two throw.  One arm shoulder throw being number one.  Depending on the direction of the throw:  if thrown in a vertical,  up/ down fashion over the hip; land flat on the back.  If possible,  try to "scoop up" with the back like a glancing blow.  Going more or less around the hip, a bit more horizontal usualy results in a skidding roll.


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## Runs With Fire (Jan 31, 2017)

frank raud said:


> So you were taught to breakfall?


I don't know all the terminology.   To me, breakfall was high fiveing the mat;  The slap thing.


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## Danny T (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I was taught to roll, or fall flat on the back with knees in/feet up, chin tucked, elbows pulled in tight and forearms/ hands ready for action.


^^^^^^^ Uh...this is a break fall. There are hard and soft break falls. What you describe here is considered soft where as what you are asking about in the original post is a hard fall. Both can be effective.


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## marques (Jan 31, 2017)

Whatever your choice, remember that falling on irregular/unknown ground (self-defence scenario) is not the same as landing on soft, clean and flat mats (Judo scenario).
(I hate the hand slap and prefer to protect my neck/head, instead).


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## Runs With Fire (Jan 31, 2017)

My main concern with using the arms is that it leaves you wide open and temporarily defenseless.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 31, 2017)

It is better to do a breakfall than to fall and break something.


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## Danny T (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> My main concern with using the arms is that it leaves you wide open and temporarily defenseless.


The slapping helps transfer the weight distribution over a larger surface area 'for training'. This allows for a lot of repeated falls from being thrown over a short period of time without being injured.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 31, 2017)

*There really is nothing more important* that we do in the Martial Sciences than learning how to breakfall.  You may never be in a fight for your life but I can almost guarantee you that you will fall at some point.  If you know how to breakfall or roll properly you have a better chance of not taking any significant damage.

Here are a couple of posts I wrote on my blog regarding breakfalls:

The Instinctive Edge

The Instinctive Edge

If you are learning a good martial way they will also show you how to do your sweeps, takedowns and throws where you negate someone's ability to breakfall and or not suffer damage!


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## Buka (Jan 31, 2017)

Always was taught the slapping of the arm to the ground was part of breakfall training, along with everything else. To me, leaving it out is kind of like learning to punch but not learning to bring the arm back to position afterwards.

Didn't know it at the time, but breakfalls are the most practical and frequently used thing I've ever learned from Martial Arts.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 31, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think the basic idea is that energy spread over a larger area causes less damage than energy concentrated in a small area, or on a vulnerable area like a spine, hip, or shoulder.  I would hate to break my arm, but I'd rather break an arm than my back.
> 
> Think about a bullet-proof vest.  It does not work by being invulnerable to bullets.  It works by being able to spread the impact of the bullet over a much larger area.  Therefore, a person shot in the chest with a bullet that does not penetrate the vest gets a big painful bruise.  But they don't get ventilated by the bullet.
> 
> ...


 
And of course tucking the chin. You would not believe how many people I have seen fall who let their head whip backward. I'm thinking to myself, "Wow, you really do need training to know how to fall right!" It seems silly when you ask, "Do you know how to fall?" But then you show it, and they realize that there is a right and wrong way.


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## thanson02 (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I don't know all the terminology.   To me, breakfall was high fiveing the mat;  The slap thing.


All right. I think we have our point of confusion here.

A break fall is a specifically designed position that someone being thrown lands in so it minimizes the amount of damage that they receive when they're slammed on the ground.  It is meant to distribute the force that is being applied evenly across the surface to decrease the amount of potential injury that that person will receive.

That is why people find it important in their training with throws and takedowns, especially Judo and Judo influenced systems.  Some people will naturally figure out how to fall in a way that doesn't hurt them but other people have difficulty with that. So teaching specific methods and techniques that people can practice and condition will help with their overall training. Does that make sense?

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


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## frank raud (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Can someone describe to me a few good reasons why I might want to introduce breakfalks into my Judo work?  I do alot of basic judo throws in a self defense program and in Krav Maga. I've never taught it.  Didn't learn it in my training.   My instructors viewed it as unnecessary,  useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats.
> Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved? especially sprawled out in an immediately useless position?


Are you being taught by someone who has relevant experience in judo? Most throws I have seen in Krav are "Judo-inspired", but it is obvious to a judoka that the instructor has no experience in the art.


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## crazydiamond (Jan 31, 2017)

[QUOTE="Bill Mattocks, post: 1815022, member: 19169"

A big part of breakfalls is also learning not to let your head bounce off the pavement and not biting off your tongue.  Just sayin'.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

We are not taught to "slap the mat" - but the curve of the back, tuck chin, and arm spread out bracing the fall - is to make sure you dont crack your head.

From there I was taught  - its kicking and then tactical stand ups as shown below.


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## frank raud (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> that is our number two throw.  One arm shoulder throw being number one.  Depending on the direction of the throw:  if thrown in a vertical,  up/ down fashion over the hip; land flat on the back.  If possible,  try to "scoop up" with the back like a glancing blow.  Going more or less around the hip, a bit more horizontal usualy results in a skidding roll.


If you were thrown by a judoka via ippon seoi nage (one arm shoulder throw), you would have trouble landing on your back, as the direction of the throw will put you on your side, and they will still control one arm.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> My main concern with using the arms is that it leaves you wide open and temporarily defenseless.



From my point of view and my training, better to keep yourself from being injured by the throw than be incapacitated as a result of injury from improperly landing.  Depending on the type of throw you may need to roll in to it or simply put down as many arms and legs as you can before your main body hits.  I was not taught to have my arms or legs hit at the same time as my body (if I wasn't rolling), but preferably before the core of my body hits, to absorb part of the blow, as in the article linked by Bill Mattocks above.

So as you can see, there are different types of breakfalls, and different preferred applications of breakfalls.  My first suggestion would be to follow what your teacher tells you, then to look for other ways and learn them too, as long as they aren't contradictory.  If they contradict, then you have a decision to make, but you should probably go with how your style teaches, practicing them often and well until they become second nature.


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## jks9199 (Jan 31, 2017)

Learning how to fall properly is vital -- and a skill (as noted) that you're more likely to use than almost anything else you might learn in a martial arts class.  We wander around this world teetering between two feet; there are many things can disrupt that precarious balancing act and lead us to a tumble, and learning how to handle that without getting hurt is pretty darn useful.

So... there's a Japanese word, ukemi, that's all about receiving throws and trips and sweeps and other methods of making you hit the ground.  You can roll, taking the energy of the fall and converting it into motion.  Ideally -- that motion prevents you from getting hurt and lets you go into a position to continue the fight.  You can "break the fall" -- do something to kill that energy and stop it dead.  One way to do that is the slapping hand -- it's really instinctive once you've done it a few times.  In fact, it often happens without intent because of the energy involved.  This includes things like landing in a way falling forward or backward that doesn't lead to broken wrists -- because the reality is that lots of people reach for the ground as they fall, and break their wrists.

Then there's a whole 'nother game where you use rolls to inflict damage or cover ground and attack.  Imagine, say, trapping a kick, stepping over and through it into a forward roll -- while you hold onto that leg you trapped...  Or doing an intentional diving roll into an opponent's hip...  or rolling forward and rising into a punch...  Lots of possibilities once you get comfortable with rolling...

And -- just for fun -- the wildest "breakfall" I've ever seen was on a mountain bike.  A guy I was riding with lost it, went down, and held onto his bike.  The trail and the fall worked just right that he actually was able to roll back up onto the tires and keep going!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I just never "slapped the mat"....


I can understand your concern. In fighting (not in sport), when you do that, you have just open yourself up and give your opponent a chance to drop his elbow, or knee on you.

IMO, you should protect your head

- from hitting on the ground, In order to do so, you will need to put one arm between your head and the ground.
- so your opponent won't attack your head, in order to do so, you will need to put one arm between your head and your opponent.

If you use both arms to protect your head behind and in front, you don't have extra arm to "slap the mat".

In "sport" you want to have a "comfortable" falling. In fighting, Your concern is to protect your head as much as you can.


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## MI_martialist (Jan 31, 2017)

How come no one has talked about a break fall being an attack?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Can someone describe to me a few good reasons why I might want to introduce breakfalks into my Judo work?  I do alot of basic judo throws in a self defense program and in Krav Maga. I've never taught it.  Didn't learn it in my training.   My instructors viewed it as unnecessary,  useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats.
> Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved? especially sprawled out in an immediately useless position?


I'm not sure what notions you have about breakfalls that make them seem dangerous. They are about distributing the impact across more of your body to preserve yourself for more training. There's a reason they exist in every throw-heavy art I have ever seen or studied.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> How come no one has talked about a break fall being an attack?


Because it isn't. You can't attack someone by falling on the ground.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> that's interesting.  I do believe I know how to fall.  I was taught to roll out of it, unless you can't, in that case we took it flat across the back and shoulders.   I can fall fine, I just never "slapped the mat".  It's the slapping part that I have doubts on.  I have trouble seeing how skinnny arms have enough surface area to make a noticeable difference on something as large as a back.


Your back and shoulders are a smaller area than your back, shoulders, and arm. Learn to fall with the arm, then try falling without it. You'll understand then.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I was taught to roll, or fall flat on the back with knees in/feet up, chin tucked, elbows pulled in tight and forearms/ hands ready for action.


Falling "flat on the back" is a bad idea on anything except a mat. Not really all that good even then.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

marques said:


> Whatever your choice, remember that falling on irregular/unknown ground (self-defence scenario) is not the same as landing on soft, clean and flat mats (Judo scenario).
> (I hate the hand slap and prefer to protect my neck/head, instead).


Just a note, there's no reason protecting the head/neck can't go along with the slap. We do both at the same time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> My main concern with using the arms is that it leaves you wide open and temporarily defenseless.


Not an issue. The slap happens at the moment of impact, at which point, you cannot effectively counter anything, anyway. Immediately thereafter, you can use your arms for an appropriate defense.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just a note, there's no reason protecting the head/neck can't go along with the slap. We do both at the same time.


You only have 2 arms. If you use one arm to slap the ground, you will only have one arm left to protect your head. 

If you protect your head from 

- hitting the ground, your head will be exposed for your opponent's dropping elbow.
- your opponent's dropping elbow, you head may hit on the ground.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You only have 2 arms. If you use one arm to slap the ground, you will only have one arm left to protect your head.
> 
> If you protect your head from
> 
> ...


The arm slapping the ground is near the ground. The other can protect your head. It's what we do. The other is only away from the head for a tiny bit of a second - a time when you are danged hard to hit, because you're moving away from the person who may wish to hit you. As soon as it slaps, it moves back up to protect the head.


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## marques (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just a note, there's no reason protecting the head/neck can't go along with the slap. We do both at the same time.


Yes, we can do both. Just the slap is not helpful if there is something sharp in the (way to the) ground (self-defence scenario). Painfull on concrete. Instead, I use one hand to soften the impact, in fact, but no slap. Anyway my priority is protecting the neck/head and curling the back.


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## KangTsai (Feb 1, 2017)

Well if you had to choose between breaking your arm or your spine at the end of a fall, what would it be?


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## Runs With Fire (Feb 1, 2017)

I think my position is still: the back is strong enough to take the impact.  The arm is far too fragile to endanger.  That, and  I would never spread my arms if I can help it.  I teach five rules for combatives *see no.2
1 keep your balance
2 keep your hands between your opponent and your face at all times 
3 stay on your feet
4 atack atack atack!
5 always advance


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I think my position is still: the back is strong enough to take the impact.  The arm is far too fragile to endanger.  That, and  I would never spread my arms if I can help it.  I teach five rules for combatives *see no.2
> 1 keep your balance
> 2 keep your hands between your opponent and your face at all times
> 3 stay on your feet
> ...


 

Unfortunately, none of them apply when you've being thrown. You've lost your balance(or it was taken from you), if you are thrown in a forward direction, your hands will be between the ground and you, when you are thrown, you are not on your feet, very difficult to attack when you've lost your balance and are being thrown. When your balance has been taken, the other person dictates whether you advance or retreat.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I think my position is still: the back is strong enough to take the impact.  The arm is far too fragile to endanger.  That, and  I would never spread my arms if I can help it.  I teach five rules for combatives *see no.2
> 1 keep your balance
> 2 keep your hands between your opponent and your face at all times
> 3 stay on your feet
> ...


There are parts of your back that are more fragile than your arm, and injuries to them are more debilitating. Where would you rather take a punch: the arm, or the back? Oh, that's right, we block with our arms.


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)

135 years of judo experience around the world, and millions of practitioners say you're wrong. But why go by cumulative experience when your background is stand up arts? Many of the common judo throws(any of the hip or shoulder throws) are  designed to have the uke land on their side, with the other arm controlled by the tori. You rarely get to decide what kind of breakfall you will do. That is decided for you by the person throwing you.


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## Runs With Fire (Feb 1, 2017)

But you can't win a fight with your hands down.  And the fight isn't over just because you hit the dirt.  I don't do a ton of throws, but when I go down, I keep my hands and legs if possible, in a defensive position.


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## Runs With Fire (Feb 1, 2017)

It seems to me, you could have a point, if you were being thrown all day, but it also seems like a very small factor.  Slapping the floor doesn't seem productive enough for what I do. Especially given the fact that it leaves you open.  Even if just for a second or two.  Perhaps we don't throw enough to make it conducive.


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## Danny T (Feb 1, 2017)

Practice getting thrown more. Be a good partner and let your training partner/s practice their throwing repeatedly. You'll find after numerous times of hitting the ground what options will protect your body. As one already stated you will not always get to choose how you hit the ground. 

As to always having your hand between you and your opponent...how do you accomplish that when you get thrown face down into the ground?


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> But you can't win a fight with your hands down.  And the fight isn't over just because you hit the dirt.  I don't do a ton of throws, but when I go down, I keep my hands and legs if possible, in a defensive position.


So, what, exactly is stopping you from hitting the ground and immediately bringing your hands up into a defensive position? That is how I learned how to do breakfalls in jiu jitsu. My first club was on the second floor of an old firehouse. Concrete floor with sawdust poured on it with a pool tarp stretched on top. 12 years of breakfalls on that surface. I transferred to a sister club, they got booted out of where they were training, ended up in a community center. No mats. When outside, did all classes outside, throwing on the ground. That worked until winter came, we managed to use the clubhouse of a local golf course(not used during winter). Building was barely heated through the week, sensei would come in an hour before class, turn the heat up. We had proper mats by then, but they would be frozen when we started the class. We softened the mats up by throwing. I now do judo on 1" tatami on concrete floor. I have fallen off a 8' ladder and done a back breakfall on concrete. Got right back up and went back to work(not recommended, don't want to repeat the experience). Living in a harsh winter environment, have slipped and fallen on my side, my back and to the front. Each time using my arms as part of the breakfall.
Over thirty years of personal experience with breakfalls in less than cushy situations, both on and off the mats, tells me they work. Add to the millions of judokas, aikido, and jiu jitsu players who use the same breakfalls(or variations) says maybe, just maybe they work better than someone who doesn't do them understands.


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## Runs With Fire (Feb 1, 2017)

frank raud said:


> So, what, exactly is stopping you from hitting the ground and immediately bringing your hands up into a defensive position? That is how I learned how to do breakfalls in jiu jitsu. My first club was on the second floor of an old firehouse. Concrete floor with sawdust poured on it with a pool tarp stretched on top. 12 years of breakfalls on that surface. I transferred to a sister club, they got booted out of where they were training, ended up in a community center. No mats. When outside, did all classes outside, throwing on the ground. That worked until winter came, we managed to use the clubhouse of a local golf course(not used during winter). Building was barely heated through the week, sensei would come in an hour before class, turn the heat up. We had proper mats by then, but they would be frozen when we started the class. We softened the mats up by throwing. I now do judo on 1" tatami on concrete floor. I have fallen off a 8' ladder and done a back breakfall on concrete. Got right back up and went back to work(not recommended, don't want to repeat the experience). Living in a harsh winter environment, have slipped and fallen on my side, my back and to the front. Each time using my arms as part of the breakfall.
> Over thirty years of personal experience with breakfalls in less than cushy situations, both on and off the mats, tells me they work. Add to the millions of judokas, aikido, and jiu jitsu players who use the same breakfalls(or variations) says maybe, just maybe they work better than someone who doesn't do them understands.


it's one more thing to do before you get your hands up, it is inevitably slower.


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## Runs With Fire (Feb 1, 2017)

Danny T said:


> As to always having your hand between you and your opponent...how do you accomplish that when you get thrown face down into the ground?


 you would obviously have to turn.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> But you can't win a fight with your hands down.  And the fight isn't over just because you hit the dirt.  I don't do a ton of throws, but when I go down, I keep my hands and legs if possible, in a defensive position.


That's fine. Ignore the input from the folks who actually do a ton of throws. Take a hard fall on a hard surface flat on your back, and there will be no more defense.


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## Danny T (Feb 1, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> you would obviously have to turn.


LOL...
Please show an example of you being thrown face down and hitting the ground face down but obviously having turned so you are not face down


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

Forgetting the different dynamics of different throws there is a BIG difference between any of them on a mat and on concrete.  The amount of time you are vulnerable after falling properly is pretty minute.  Remember, unless it was a bonafide takedown (meaning the opponent maintains physical control/contact with you) they still have to cover the distance, even if it just largely vertical to get to you, and they have to reorient.  The proper fall can be the difference between you being able to defend yourself and not.

If you fall improperly the force is applied over a smaller area can result in serious injury (dislocations, fractures, even unconsciousness), or simply the wind knocked out of you.  It can even result in concussion (which can seriously effect your ability to fight) or even death.  At a minimum a simple uncontrolled landing where even with your hands up you are forced to reorient.

Also the idea of rolling while definitely viable, if done properly, on concrete is only really applicable for what I call "projection" or "launch" throws like you see in Aikido.  It is harder to learn to do this properly (training to stay in a ball to roll while you are falling) but it is easier on the body one learned because your rolling mass naturally wants to slow down when no more force is being applied.

This does NOT work with the "lever" or "fulcrum" throws of Judo.  You are basically being dropped straight into the ground and if you just take that on your shoulders and neck on concrete?  Good luck to you.  You aren't rolling out of it and you risk some serious injury... as the good meme says


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The arm slapping the ground is near the ground. The other can protect your head.



Most of the time when your opponent throws you, he has controlled one of your arms. You will only have one free arm left. You can use that free arm to
1. protect your head, put your arm behind your head as a soft pillow, or
2. slap on the mat to get a comfortable falling. The concern is the back of your head can still hit on the ground.

In the following picture, his right arm is not free. His left arm can only do one thing, protect his head, or slap on the mat.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2017)

dup, deleted.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most of the time when your opponent throws you, he has controlled one of your arms. You will only have one free arm left. You can use that free arm to
> 1. protect your head, put your arm behind your head as a soft pillow, or
> 2. slap on the mat to get a comfortable falling. The concern is the back of your head can still hit on the ground.
> 
> In the following picture, his right arm is not free. His left arm can only do one thing, protect his head, or slap on the mat.



obviously every fight is different but, to an extent though you can tuck your head in throws like that and slap/spread the arm to still have more surface area striking.  The combination can actually, in certain circumstances of course can prevent more injury than just covering your head.  I say this because your hand/arm will protect from abrasions and maybe a fracture to the skull etc. but especially on concrete it won't do much for a concussion, not enough force is absorbed by the limb to stop concussions caused by linear acceleration and they basically do nothing to ones caused by rotational acceleration.  However, if applicable, tucking the head so the shoulders hit first, along with force being absorbed across the length of an arm via the "slap" would be a safer option.

I say this because, especially in adults, the onset of the symptoms of a concussion that can be very detrimental in adults (temporary loss of consciousness, confusion, dizziness, ringing in the ears, nausea and vomiting etc) can be almost instantaneous.  I said especially in adults because the onset in youth can be delayed due to their different brain structure.


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)




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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most of the time when your opponent throws you, he has controlled one of your arms. You will only have one free arm left. You can use that free arm to
> 1. protect your head, put your arm behind your head as a soft pillow, or
> 2. slap on the mat to get a comfortable falling. The concern is the back of your head can still hit on the ground.
> 
> In the following picture, his right arm is not free. His left arm can only do one thing, protect his head, or slap on the mat.


The only danger to his head in this is from the fall. There's not much an arm can do about that except help control the fall.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The only danger to his head in this is from the fall. There's not much an arm can do about that except help control the fall.



And its actually summed up quite well in this study that actually used Judo throws as the test bed...

Rotational Acceleration during Head Impact Resulting from Different Judo Throwing Techniques

It only takes about 50 g of translational force to cause a concussion, not sure about the rad/s of radial acceleration.  The G's alone are enough to cause the concussion and for the Ouchi-gari, it quite literally blows not only that limit away but the 103 Gs a football player takes on the field and they are wearing helmets.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

frank raud said:


>




And if someone would look, they would see the "arm slap" isn't something that necessarily leaves you "wide open", if proper mechanics are used.  It just takes straight up practice on just "falling" which I know some people may find "boring" as opposed to training attack techniques.

Let me give you an example.  An officer on my department has had in excess of 4-5 concussions in the last 2 years alone, all from arresting resisting subjects.  I sat down with him one day and asked "hey man, you were a killer wrestler in high school and college and only stopped coaching that high school team when you got transferred to the narcotics unit right?"  Answer "yes."  "So man another question...you always 'get the guy' but when I read the reports it seems like you may have concussed yourself.  Is it possible that you are doing takedowns that work great on the mat BUT your head doesn't like em on the street?"  He sat there and thought for a moment and then said "damn, your right.  I need to figure out a way to break that habit."

You need to look at your environment and then TRAIN for that environment, even if it seems tedious.  .


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## PiedmontChun (Feb 1, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> it's one more thing to do before you get your hands up, it is inevitably slower.


Recovering from the wind being absolutely knocked out of you or from the percussive impact to your back is "one more thing to do before you get your hands up" also. In a fight situation, I know which I would choose, and that's trying to fall in the best way possible as a priority. As far as trying to "roll out of it", there are many Judo throws that simply don't allow you to roll upon impact - you are heading straight to the mat or the ground, with little to no sideways momentum to be able to roll at all.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

PS.  I know the physics stuff may seem tedious for some but, while the complete math can be complicated, that is ultimately what the actual "technique" side of martial arts is, applied physics.  Sometimes understanding the force involved to make you say "oh yeah, that may be a bad idea."   As an example 120gs (the last throw) wouldn't be unheard of in a serious car wreck that lets you survive, relatively uninjured, if you are wearing a seat belt so you don't hit the steering wheel.  Proper falling acts like the seat belt as it spreads the impact over a wider area.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Because it isn't. You can't attack someone by falling on the ground.



Really?  I disagree completely!!


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> PS.  I know the physics stuff may seem tedious for some but, while the complete amth can be complicated, that is ultimately what the actual "technique" side of martial arts is, applied physics.  Sometimes understanding the force involved to make you say "oh yeah, that may be a bad idea."   As an example 120gs (the last throw) wouldn't be unheard of in a server car wreck that lets you survive, relatively uninjured if you are wearing a seat belt so you don't hit the steering wheel.  Proper falling acts like the seat belt as it spreads the impact over a wider area.


Of the 6-700 books I have on the subject,  one of my current favourites is The Secrets of Judo by Watanabe and Avakian. It is pretty much a physics manual.


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Really?  I disagree completely!!


The People's elbow?


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

frank raud said:


> The People's elbow?


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## WaterGal (Feb 1, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I think my position is still: the back is strong enough to take the impact.  The arm is far too fragile to endanger.  That, and  I would never spread my arms if I can help it.  I teach five rules for combatives *see no.2
> 1 keep your balance
> 2 keep your hands between your opponent and your face at all times
> 3 stay on your feet
> ...



If you break your spine or tailbone, you won't be able to do any of those things, except maybe #2.   If you get nasty bruises on your arms, or even break one of them, you can. Better to hurt your arm.  

If you fall forward, your have a choice of either: 1) use your arms to do a proper breakfall and get some bruises, or 2) go by human instinct and break your fall with your hands, potentially breaking your wrists.  Or, I guess, 3) faceplant on the asphalt and break your face.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2017)

In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.

- Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
- Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.
> 
> - Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
> - Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.


Aint no breakfall gonna help if you're being piledriven into the ground.  You also have a very slim chance of being able to roll out of the scenario you suggest, or of being able to land on your back and absorb the fall. As has been before, the appropriate breakfall to use is not your choice, it is decided for you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Really?  I disagree completely!!


Care to elaborate?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Of the 6-700 books I have on the subject,  one of my current favourites is The Secrets of Judo by Watanabe and Avakian. It is pretty much a physics manual.


I've seen that and read parts of it - I had forgotten entirely about it. I think I need a copy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Aint no breakfall gonna help if you're being piledriven into the ground.  You also have a very slim chance of being able to roll out of the scenario you suggest, or of being able to land on your back and absorb the fall. As has been before, the appropriate breakfall to use is not your choice, it is decided for you.


As long as your skull is not cracked, you may stiil live,


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.
> 
> - Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
> - Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.


In the former, a familiarity with falling makes that a remote possibility. Even with a new fall (someone giving me a throw I don't know), I nearly always know where the ground is coming.

In the latter, unless they are doing some superhero move (swinging me by my feet) or in some WWE move, I'm not sure what would preclude using my arms. I've had people (in training) pull both feet out from under me without warning (from behind), and a breakfall was still available. And if they've managed to preclude the regular breakfall, then I'd use my hands/arms as best to protect. But that's pretty far out there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As long as your skull is not cracked, you may stiil live,


If they are going to that extent, your immediate inability to defend after that head-crash makes survival far less likely. And, in fact, Frank pointed out a good tidbit. If I can't breakfall, often I can use at least the principles of rolling (if not an actual roll) to take impact from my head.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.
> 
> - Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
> - Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.



Here is the problem with your scenarios.

We covered that the first one is addressed by a technique you use in dealing with a throw more common in Aikido, you train to turn into a ball and "roll" with it.

For your second no method whatsoever is going to save you, including the "use your arm as a pillow" method.  I am assuming you mean that they have your arms bound up on this one.  Otherwise, if your are conscious you can still spread both arms, increasing surface area, and tuck in your head because the back of the skull is stronger than the crown structurally.  This also reduced the chance of cervical damage.  Are you still hurting?  Yes but in that scenario it's about mitigating damage and trying to avoid permenant injury.


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.
> 
> - Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
> - Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.


In judo and jiu jitsu, I learned multiple breakfalls in multiple directions, to prepare me for landing on my side , my back, or to the front. Because, and this is HUGE, there is not one breakfall that works in every scenario. It's almost like people figured this out hundreds of years ago.

So, unless you are suggesting it is pointless to learn something because it isn't the answer to every situation, what are you trying to contribute here?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2017)

frank raud said:


> what are you trying to contribute here?


Protect your head.

My wife just fell down from the stair the other day. Because she protected her head, she was OK.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Protect your head.
> 
> My wife just fell down from the stair the other day. Because she protected her head, she was OK.


Had she rolled or done a breakfall, her head would also be okay.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Had she rolled or done a breakfall, her head would also be okay.


It's also not a proper measure in regards to a judo throw. In such a fall you're only dealing with the force of gravity. In terms of a judo throw you are dealing with the force of gravity, the force that the other judoka places behind it and the momentum that you potentially had when you are moving towards the other judoka. All of these additional inputs of energy magnify the force so that a single Judo hip throw can actually cause more damage to a single point then they fall down a typical flight of stairs.

The above didn't even take into account what is possibly the most important factor.  In a fall down stairs, your motion is chaotic.  You are basically a pinball, impacting in a chaotic sequence of small individual impacts that potentially culminates with the head, but each previous impact bleeds energy.  A proper throw is having you land with all the force on one general point, unless you land properly.


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## JP3 (Feb 1, 2017)

I could just show you why you want to know how to breakfall..... it's called harai makikomi.....

Just to check, I just did a google search on "what are breakfalls" and tons of good results explaining what they are, how to do them, the science behind them, and different teaching methods.

Honestly, if your judo instruction did not have significant breakfall practice contained therein, I would be questioning your instructors ability to teach judo.  It is a fundamental core of the entire curriculum.


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## Juany118 (Feb 1, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I could just show you why you want to know how to breakfall..... it's called harai makikomi.....
> 
> Just to check, I just did a google search on "what are breakfalls" and tons of good results explaining what they are, how to do them, the science behind them, and different teaching methods.
> 
> Honestly, if your judo instruction did not have significant breakfall practice contained therein, I would be questioning your instructors ability to teach judo.  It is a fundamental core of the entire curriculum.



I was thinking the same tbh.  Ukemi is something competent Judo instructors train you in to the point of frustration because without that you will get hurt on a mat, on concrete?  I don't want to think about it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I was thinking the same tbh.  Ukemi is something competent Judo instructors train you in to the point of frustration because without that you will get hurt on a mat, on concrete?  I don't want to think about it.


I think my first two Judo classes were almost nothing else. I remember the ukemi training from Judo better than any of the techniques.


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## frank raud (Feb 1, 2017)

My friend, professional stunt woman, author and martial artist Lori O'Connell demonstrating falling down stairs.


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## Buka (Feb 2, 2017)

frank raud said:


> My friend, professional stunt woman, author and martial artist Lori O'Connell demonstrating falling down stairs.



Glad you brought that up, brother. My friend, Sandy, has been a stunt woman since she doubled for Billy Mummy in Lost in Space in 1965. She's still a working stunt woman in Hollywood as we speak. Little bitty thing, too, tough as all get out.

She credits her longevity to Martial Arts training, and learning how to fight, fall, roll, slap out and relax while performing.

(bet they know each other, too)


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

frank raud said:


> My friend, professional stunt woman, author and martial artist Lori O'Connell demonstrating falling down stairs.


Mostly relaxing and rolling with it, from the looks of it. Still looks like there'd be some soreness the next day - stairs are bumpy.


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## Runs With Fire (Feb 2, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> .  Or, I guess, 3) faceplant on the asphalt and break your face.


 on that note, during my first black belt test in TSD, the judges had us do lots of stuff we never heard of just to see how we handled it.  Near the end, the head master asked us to fall forward and catch ourselves on our "shock absorbers" then go into a low spinning heel kick.  The first  student  up,  to say politely, was very large chested and completely misinterpreted the term, "shock absorbers".   ( catch yourself on bent arms like a pushup while keeping momentum for the turn kick. ) thank goodness we had just installed the floor mats.


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## Runs With Fire (Feb 2, 2017)

I'm going to check into it a little more.  Signed up for a Judo seminar with a group in South Bend next month. No promises though.


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## MI_martialist (Feb 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Care to elaborate?



Sure...every "breakfall" has attacking combat applications that should be learned.  Ukemi does not mean to fall...it means to accept what is happening.  If we accept what is happening, we can accept to attack and use what is happening as an attack.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Sure...every "breakfall" has attacking combat applications that should be learned.  Ukemi does not mean to fall...it means to accept what is happening.  If we accept what is happening, we can accept to attack and use what is happening as an attack.


The question was about breakfalls, not ukemi (which breakfalls are a part of). While actually falling (breakfall) from a throw, there is not an attack component, except in some rare circumstances. For the vast majority of the time, either there's a counter that starts early (in which case you're not actually breakfalling, but doing sutemi waza), or you do the breakfall, then counter.

It may simply be that we are talking about two different things. Can you give me an example of what you mean?


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## WaterGal (Feb 2, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> on that note, during my first black belt test in TSD, the judges had us do lots of stuff we never heard of just to see how we handled it.  Near the end, the head master asked us to fall forward and catch ourselves on our "shock absorbers" then go into a low spinning heel kick.  The first  student  up,  to say politely, was very large chested and completely misinterpreted the term, "shock absorbers".   ( catch yourself on bent arms like a pushup while keeping momentum for the turn kick. ) thank goodness we had just installed the floor mats.



Hah!  I've not heard the term shock absorbers used in a martial arts context before, so I can understand why she might be confused, haha.  

But were they looking for you to catch yourself on your forearms, or on your hands in a push-up position?  I ask because, at as far as I've ever learned, catching yourself on your hands means you're using your wrists and metacarpals to absorb the shock.


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## frank raud (Feb 2, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> Hah!  I've not heard the term shock absorbers used in a martial arts context before, so I can understand why she might be confused, haha.
> 
> But were they looking for you to catch yourself on your forearms, or on your hands in a push-up position?  I ask because, at as far as I've ever learned, catching yourself on your hands means you're using your wrists and metacarpals to absorb the shock.


When you do a forward fall, you want to land on your forearms(to absorb impact). If you reach out and land on your hands, there is a good chance of breaking your wrist or collarbone. The way we learned it was to be on your toes and your forearms. In jiu jitsu, we would regularly do this by jumping up, kicking out your feet and landing flat on your toes and forearms. It was not uncommon to be falling from shoulder height(5'?) onto the mat. I have done it on a tile floor(intentionally). We also learned to turn our head, so as not to bump our nose on the ground. We do the same fall in judo, but usually from our knees, occasionally from standing.


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## frank raud (Feb 2, 2017)

Buka said:


> Glad you brought that up, brother. My friend, Sandy, has been a stunt woman since she doubled for Billy Mummy in Lost in Space in 1965. She's still a working stunt woman in Hollywood as we speak. Little bitty thing, too, tough as all get out.
> 
> She credits her longevity to Martial Arts training, and learning how to fight, fall, roll, slap out and relax while performing.
> 
> (bet they know each other, too)


Lori works in Vancouver(Hollywood North) Not sure if their paths have crossed.


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## Spinedoc (Feb 2, 2017)

There are different kinds of breakfalls. Soft halls, hard falls, high falls (shihonage anyone), and what I am working on....featherfalls.


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## Spinedoc (Feb 2, 2017)

Additionally, knowing how to breakfall properly is an important life skill, and to be honest, unless you live in a combat zone, or, are just a complete a-hole, is probably the most important physical skill you learn in martial arts...I love this one of guys on a wooden gymnasium floor going at it.....I see, very, very precise ukemi here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

frank raud said:


> When you do a forward fall, you want to land on your forearms(to absorb impact). If you reach out and land on your hands, there is a good chance of breaking your wrist or collarbone. The way we learned it was to be on your toes and your forearms. In jiu jitsu, we would regularly do this by jumping up, kicking out your feet and landing flat on your toes and forearms. It was not uncommon to be falling from shoulder height(5'?) onto the mat. I have done it on a tile floor(intentionally). We also learned to turn our head, so as not to bump our nose on the ground. We do the same fall in judo, but usually from our knees, occasionally from standing.


We use an identical fall to yours in NGA (our ukemi is very similar to Judo).


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

Spinedoc said:


> There are different kinds of breakfalls. Soft halls, hard falls, high falls (shihonage anyone), and what I am working on....featherfalls.


I've been starting to work on those, too. I don't think they are as universally applicable, but they are a hell of a lot softer on the body when they are available. So far, I've only gotten the feather front fall in working order, but haven't had a chance to use it.


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## Spinedoc (Feb 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've been starting to work on those, too. I don't think they are as universally applicable, but they are a hell of a lot softer on the body when they are available. So far, I've only gotten the feather front fall in working order, but haven't had a chance to use it.



I've been working on it from all falls, and specifically higher side falls from Shihonage and/or kotegaeshi. Still working on the back fall version from iriminage though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

Spinedoc said:


> I've been working on it from all falls, and specifically higher side falls from Shihonage and/or kotegaeshi. Still working on the back fall version from iriminage though.


Our version of shihonage (Pivot Takedown) and kotegaeshi (Front Wrist Throw, and Peel-off) don't usually generate as high a fall as you're used to. When there's some speed on kotegaeshi - even with our throws - it'd be nice to be able to pull off a feather fall. I just don't have a partner to work on them with. My wife's back is a mess, so she doesn't take a lot of falls, and none of my other students are near ready to do some self-study on that type of thing.


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## JP3 (Feb 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Mostly relaxing and rolling with it, from the looks of it. Still looks like there'd be some soreness the next day - stairs are bumpy.



Finally! Gotcha!  Or, can get you back for the nitpicking about my inability to properly perform division.  Staris are not "bumpy."  Stairs have corners. Normal stairs do not have bumps, they have "corners."

Yeah! Go Team!

As you can tell, this sort of drivel entertains me to no end.



gpseymour said:


> Our version of shihonage (Pivot Takedown) and kotegaeshi (Front Wrist Throw, and Peel-off) don't usually generate as high a fall as you're used to. When there's some speed on kotegaeshi - even with our throws - it'd be nice to be able to pull off a feather fall. I just don't have a partner to work on them with. My wife's back is a mess, so she doesn't take a lot of falls, and none of my other students are near ready to do some self-study on that type of thing.



My class starts in about90 minutes, c'mon over. I'll stick you with this brown belt girl I have who I think could be Nina from the Tekken games made flesh. She's working on kotegaeshi right now, too. She's sort of... cruel, though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Finally! Gotcha!  Or, can get you back for the nitpicking about my inability to properly perform division.  Staris are not "bumpy."  Stairs have corners. Normal stairs do not have bumps, they have "corners."
> 
> Yeah! Go Team!
> 
> ...


Sounds like fun. Seriously, I'd love to drop in sometime if I find myself back in the Houston area. I've done some training out that way for a couple of clients of one of my clients (I deliver the training they sell), and might do so again.


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## Spinedoc (Feb 3, 2017)

JP3 said:


> My class starts in about90 minutes, c'mon over. I'll stick you with this brown belt girl I have who I think could be Nina from the Tekken games made flesh. She's working on kotegaeshi right now, too. She's sort of... cruel, though.



It always makes me laugh when we have a new student say.."Hey, I thought in Aikido you weren't trying to harm your opponent."......I always respond.."Well, you have to understand the context of that statement. By not 'harming your opponent' we mean that we are trying (emphasis on trying) not to permanently damage, disfigure, maim, or kill our opponents, that does not mean that there will not be pain and/or possible injury involved". Usually they get it when they experience sankyo for the first time. LOL.


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## JP3 (Feb 4, 2017)

Spinedoc said:


> Usually they get it when they experience sankyo for the first time. LOL.



you got that right. Love sankyo, though in our place we call it kotemuwashi. As Evlis would say, "Like kotegaeshi, 'cept different..."

Neat thing about sankyo/kotemuwashi... it doesn't have to hurt to be effective, though making it hurt is.... ahh.... hmm... fulfilling, let's say.  Especially when you stick to a boxer and do it to them as they're snapping their hands back... or trying to. Odd how they never think that's even a "thing." Kotegaeshi works that way too, except it's likely to send them across the dojo, depending on how much retraction force they put in.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 4, 2017)

In the following clip, the "arm slap mat break fall" can work on the 2nd throw. It won't work on the 1st throw.


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2017)

Spinedoc said:


> It always makes me laugh when we have a new student say.."Hey, I thought in Aikido you weren't trying to harm your opponent."......I always respond.."Well, you have to understand the context of that statement. By not 'harming your opponent' we mean that we are trying (emphasis on trying) not to permanently damage, disfigure, maim, or kill our opponents, that does not mean that there will not be pain and/or possible injury involved". Usually they get it when they experience sankyo for the first time. LOL.



I had Aikido described to me as 'I hold your hand while you hurt yourself'.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the following clip, the "arm slap mat break fall" can work on the 2nd throw. It won't work on the 1st throw.


I can't be certain, but it looks like there's room to maintain a rotation to get in a side fall on the first throw. I've never been thrown off that one, so I can't be sure.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I had Aikido described to me as 'I hold your hand while you hurt yourself'.


Some of the techniques really do feel that way when they fall perfectly into place.


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## JP3 (Feb 5, 2017)

Going back and reviewing the thread, I'm still a bit on the concerned side that the O/P thinks he's learning judo, but hasn't ever done breakfall/ukemi training.


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## frank raud (Feb 5, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Going back and reviewing the thread, I'm still a bit on the concerned side that the O/P thinks he's learning judo, but hasn't ever done breakfall/ukemi training.


I don't believe he thinks he is learning judo, he says he does judo throws in a self defense course and in krav.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 5, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved?


You don't need to use your arm to slab on the mat. You can use your arms to protect your head instead. Your arm is stronger than your skull, and your head is more important than your arm.

Here are 2 examples.





[/QUOTE]


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## JP3 (Feb 5, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Can someone describe to me a few good reasons why I might want to introduce breakfalks into my Judo work?  I do alot of basic judo throws in a self defense program and in Krav Maga. I've never taught it.  Didn't learn it in my training.   My instructors viewed it as unnecessary,  useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats.
> Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved? especially sprawled out in an immediately useless position?





frank raud said:


> I don't believe he thinks he is learning judo, he says he does judo throws in a self defense course and in krav.



I had to go back and re-read the actual O/P since I could have sworn he talked about taking judo, but you're absolutely correct.  The O/P said he did some judo throws but didn't actually take any judo, etc.:



Runs With Fire said:


> Can someone describe to me a few good reasons why I might want to introduce breakfalks into my Judo work?  I do alot of basic judo throws in a self defense program and in Krav Maga. I've never taught it.  Didn't learn it in my training.   My instructors viewed it as unnecessary,  useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats.
> Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved? especially sprawled out in an immediately useless position?



   Hmmm. I get it now. it's an SD course, with throws which he thinks are from judo, which is probably what he was taught.  The "judo" throws themselves aren't judo, the throws originate in various forms of jujutsu.  Principally, the throwing techniques (nagewaza) are from the keto-ryu jujutsu of Jigoro Kano's instructor IikuboTsunetoshi, which Jigoro kano paired with the non-destructive portions of the tenjin shin'yo-ryu jujutsu of his earlier instructor Fukuda hachinosuke .  Big generalizations these, so keep this in mind.

Regardless, half of the learning of the throwing techniques, to get them right and most properly executed, is to learn to both deliver AND receive them (i.e. the ukemi/breakfalls).  

  So, when Runs With Fire said, "My instructors viewed it as unnecessary,  useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats." I just have to shake my head.  Some ~6,000 people die each year of a slip and fall accident in their own homes, for which knowing the breakfalls taught in the first week's judo classes could be a direct lifesaver.

   As to needing a crash mat to take a fall, you don't have them when you are throwing people around in the SD class, are you? I am assuming that you have some sort of surface, i.e. a floor, on which folks are being tossed. If you put any emphasis on that at all, I can tell you that you are training people, even if you do't know it or if the instructors don't want to believe it, how to breakfall. I can prove it by merely asking, "Have you ever tossed someone with one of those hip or shoulder throws while in class? Ok, that's a yes. Did they get back up? Ok, breakfall."  Learning to do it better is a good thing.  I've used my ukemi to take falls on a hardwood surface (to see if I could) out in the grass (during a demonstration) across the top of a car (at a bar with my wife and a little guy who grabbed her but, whom I gently disciplined (truth), went and got his 6'8" friend to teach me a lesson and ended up getting taught one... albeit I rolled across some dude's new Porshe Boxter. I felt bad about the car.) and on concrete (just plain old tripped over a parking block and did a splay out front breakfall. Got a little abrasion on one hand and that's it.

Next thing said, "Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved?"

Because arms heal much quicker, and with fewer complications, than the spine and the complex ligament and muscular structure which keeps everyting in place.... to say nothing of the spinal cord. If I need to tell you that protecting that is important... maybe I'm wasting my time.


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## Runs With Fire (Feb 6, 2017)

WaterGal said:


> Hah!  I've not heard the term shock absorbers used in a martial arts context before, so I can understand why she might be confused, haha.
> 
> But were they looking for you to catch yourself on your forearms, or on your hands in a push-up position?  I ask because, at as far as I've ever learned, catching yourself on your hands means you're using your wrists and metacarpals to absorb the shock.


 more the biceps and triceps.  The thing was to start with your arms extended ,back kept straight, and bend the elbows as you continue down to slow the decent,  rather than rigid arms and a sudden stop.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> more the biceps and triceps.  The thing was to start with your arms extended ,back kept straight, and bend the elbows as you continue down to slow the decent,  rather than rigid arms and a sudden stop.


I've seen this taught at schools that don't practice throws (and, so, don't have breakfalls). It's reasonable for a controlled fall. Practiced enough, it might become habitual and help avoid putting a stiff arm out on an uncontrolled fall. It does expose the wrists more, and wont' have the structure to stop an uncontrolled fall, but it will still help.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 6, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> the thing was to start with your arms extended ,back kept straight, and bend the elbows as you continue down to slow the decent, ...


All wrestling teachers will tell you that when you use "shoulder throw" to throw your opponent, if your opponent extends his arm toward the ground, you should pull his arm toward you and force him to land with his "triangle muscle behind his shoulder" (the strongest muscle on human body). I have seen so many students who hurt their "wrist joint" this way. It's not a good landing method.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 7, 2017)

As others have pointed out, proper breakfalling technique is very important, possibly the most useful thing you'll ever learn in the martial arts.

As far as the "slapping the mat" portion of certain breakfalls, I'm more ambivalent. If I'm taking a fall on concrete, I certainly don't slap the ground as hard as judoka typically do on mats.

Possible arguments for training with slapping the mat:


To reprogram the instinctive reaction of reaching out to post with the hand, which can cause a broken wrist. I honestly suspect this is the most important reason.
To create a broader surface area to distribute the impact. Note, this does not require you to slap really hard as is often practiced. You really need just enough force to connect the arm and body as a unit.
For really big rotational throws, the extension of the arm may give the throwee some degree of control over the amount of rotation  so as to land in the best position for absorbing impact. (Arm extended slows rotation, arm tight to the body speeds rotation - think of a figure skater doing spins.)
If you watch high-level judoka taking breakfalls you will notice two things:

For demonstrations and when training reps, they will almost always slap the mat cleanly and forcefully.

When being thrown in competition, they will typically either not slap the mat at all  or else will do so in a minimal fashion.

I'm not a high-level judoka, but this matches my personal experience as well. Overall, I've come to the conclusion that slapping the mat has its uses as a developmental tool in training, but is not one of the more important elements in actual application of the breakfall.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As others have pointed out, proper breakfalling technique is very important, possibly the most useful thing you'll ever learn in the martial arts.
> 
> As far as the "slapping the mat" portion of certain breakfalls, I'm more ambivalent. If I'm taking a fall on concrete, I certainly don't slap the ground as hard as judoka typically do on mats.


True that. One of the rooms I use for teaching has puzzle mats. Their surface is very firm, and slapping hurts (as it does on concrete, etc.), so in there I work on a different falling technique that replaces the slap with a more gradual, slightly earlier arrival of the arm - which links up with your bullet point:


> To create a broader surface area to distribute the impact. Note, this does not require you to slap really hard as is often practiced. You really need just enough force to connect the arm and body as a unit.







> For really big rotational throws, the extension of the arm may give the throwee some degree of control over the amount of rotation  so as to land in the best position for absorbing impact. (Arm extended slows rotation, arm tight to the body speeds rotation - think of a figure skater doing spins.)




It also helps when it actually lands (with slap, or with the more gradual version). Bringing a leg over as a brake is also useful in these falls. I learned that lesson when I got a throw I wasn't familiar with about 25 years ago and over-rotated the fall. That dislocated toe has been my most nagging MA injury.


> If you watch high-level judoka taking breakfalls you will notice two things:
> 
> For demonstrations and when training reps, they will almost always slap the mat cleanly and forcefully.
> 
> ...


When I was training in Judo, my instructor taught us to never slap in competition. He said a half-point throw, if we slapped, would become a full-point throw. I don't know if that's still true in current rules, or if it was ever an actual rule (or maybe just something that affected the judges' estimation of effectiveness).


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> When I was training in Judo, my instructor taught us to never slap in competition. He said a half-point throw, if we slapped, would become a full-point throw. I don't know if that's still true in current rules, or if it was ever an actual rule (or maybe just something that affected the judges' estimation of effectiveness).


It's not an official rule, but I could see it affecting the judges perceptions. Sort of like point karate where the person delivering a punch lets out a big kiai to bring the judges attention to the strike.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 7, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved?


Here is another example that you can use your arms to protect your head instead of to "slap on the mat". Without "slap on the mat" may help you to get back up faster.

IMO, to be able to get back up fast without even have to use your arm can be a useful skill in "fighting".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> When I was training in Judo, my instructor taught us to never slap in competition. He said a half-point throw, if we slapped, would become a full-point throw.


This is the problem for "sport". If you slap on the mat, it's very clear that you have admitted that your opponent have just thrown you. If you don't and use that slapping arm to drag your opponent down to the ground, it may sound like both of you lose balance together.

This is why it's very difficult to see a "clean throw" in tournament. No matter how perfect your throw may be, your opponent will try to drag you down.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is another example that you can use your arms to protect your head instead of to "slap on the mat". Without "slap on the mat" may help you to get back up faster.
> 
> IMO, to be able to get back up fast without even have to use your arm can be a useful skill in "fighting".


Using your hands to protect the fall has nothing to do with how you get up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 7, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the problem for "sport". If you slap on the mat, it's very clear that you have admitted that your opponent have just thrown you. If you don't and use that slapping arm to drag your opponent down to the ground, it may sound like both of you lose balance together.
> 
> This is why it's very difficult to see a "clean throw" in tournament. No matter how perfect your throw may be, your opponent will try to drag you down.


I think the bigger issue with "clean throws" in competition is that the opponent knows them, too. There's a reason MMA doesn't see most of the throws found in traditional arts. Many of those throws are hard to pull off on someone who knows them well, especially if they have a chance to watch you (or video of you) and see what throws you like. A single-leg is less efficient (from the standpoint of energy usage), but the mechanics in it aren't as easily countered, even by an experienced practitioner.


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## Spinedoc (Feb 7, 2017)

I'm kind of surprised this is even a discussion....Look, to the OP, if you are training in ANY martial art that has throws, and you are not learning ukemi or how to receive and to fall properly, then you are not properly training. I tell Aikido students all the time, one of the biggest limiters in Aikido and what will affect your progress is your ukemi. Learning techniques is one thing, but if you aren't able to take more advanced ukemi, than you cannot practice more advanced techniques. Ukemi even teaches you about throwing, if you are paying attention. I always tell people...pay attention when you are being thrown, where is your kuzushi, where are you losing it, what is the point of no return, and then how are you falling, etc.etc.etc. It sounds like your instructor never learned to fall properly, which is why he is telling you what he is....Since you brought it up here, I cannot disagree more with his notions.


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## JP3 (Feb 7, 2017)

KungFu Wang, that muscle in the back is far from being the strongest muscle in the body.

The notables in the "strongest muscle" category are:  the eye muscles which operate directional control of the eye, the masseter muscle which closes the jaw, the gluteus maximus which holds us erect and allows for upright mobility along with the soleus (underbelly calf muscle. Oh, and there's the tongue and uterus but I don't have one of the latter so wouldn't know.

I completely agree with SpineDoc, there is actually more "learning" which takes place while a person is in the role of uke, if you are paying attention.

Agree with Gerry as wekll, the other guy knowing all the throws doesn't necessarily mean one guy won't throw another, but it sure muddies the water. It's way hard to get one of the big, pretty big throws off on someone who knows the setups.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 7, 2017)

JP3 said:


> KungFu Wang, that muscle in the back is far from being the strongest muscle in the body.


Strong in the sense that you can let your opponent to kick it, punch it, and you won't feel much. The "deltoid muscle" can take a lot of abuse, that's why you use it for "break fall".


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## frank raud (Feb 10, 2017)

Not ten minutes ago, I put my breakfall training to the test, as I slipped and wiped out on the ice in my driveway. Got back up with nary a scratch or a strain.


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## JP3 (Feb 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Strong in the sense that you can let your opponent to kick it, punch it, and you won't feel much. The "deltoid muscle" can take a lot of abuse, that's why you use it for "break fall".


The deltoid? Wang, those three muscles in the deltoid group (anterior, posterior and lateral) aren't big at all.... are you sure you're not thinking of the latissimus dorsi?  Average delt mass is only abut a 1/3 lb.  The lat (latissimus dorsi), in comparison, is that huge sweeping mass of muscle which spans the entire upper back.

I keep my students from getting anywhere near the deltoid when falling (if they can), as landing "on" the shoulder joint itself is a recipe for injury. Going around and over that joint is preferable, IMO.

I agree with you that, back in my Muay Thai days (maybe I should have said Muay Thai daze?), I'd use the upper arms and delts as part of the blocking structure for almost all strikes, including kicks, coming in at upper torso and head as that side hand could immediately strike after the opponent's strike was absorbed.

But not breakfalls, no.


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## Buka (Feb 11, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Not ten minutes ago, I put my breakfall training to the test, as I slipped and wiped out on the ice in my driveway. Got back up with nary a scratch or a strain.



So true. So often.

That second after you land, and just as you are about to get up - "yeah, I meant to do that." (Oh, thank you, Jesus.)


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## Langenschwert (Feb 11, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Not ten minutes ago, I put my breakfall training to the test, as I slipped and wiped out on the ice in my driveway. Got back up with nary a scratch or a strain.



Yup. Breakfalls have saved me on ice too. You're far more likely to fall down going about your business than be attacked. I always tell my students that breakfalling is the most practical martial arts skill they'll ever learn. I don't think they believe me at first, until the first snowfall hits. Then one of them usually comes to class with a good breakfall story. Students who do a lot of cycling also have come back with good breakfall stories.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 11, 2017)

Langenschwert said:


> Yup. Breakfalls have saved me on ice too. You're far more likely to fall down going about your business than be attacked. I always tell my students that breakfalling is the most practical martial arts skill they'll ever learn. I don't think they believe me at first, until the first snowfall hits. Then one of them usually comes to class with a good breakfall story. Students who do a lot of cycling also have come back with good breakfall stories.


I've never actually pulled a breakfall in everyday life. I think that's because the balance work and staying centered and being aware of center has made me much better at not falling down. The few times I have fallen, my hands stayed out of the way (the result of breakfall practice, no doubt), but a normal breakfall wasn't available because of the situation (against an object, on stairs, running madly down a slope after being tricked by a ninja spider name Inigo, etc.).


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## Langenschwert (Feb 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've never actually pulled a breakfall in everyday life. I think that's because the balance work and staying centered and being aware of center has made me much better at not falling down. The few times I have fallen, my hands stayed out of the way (the result of breakfall practice, no doubt), but a normal breakfall wasn't available because of the situation (against an object, on stairs, running madly down a slope after being tricked by a ninja spider name Inigo, etc.).



When a new student starts, they often take a little while to get good at breakfalls. I tell them "when in doubt, just look at your belt buckle (i.e. tuck the chin) and keep your arms from posting". That way they at least retain something useful that can be applied easily.


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