# Not effective?



## Pinigseu1 (Dec 12, 2011)

Hello i'm new here but glad to be. My question is why do some people think taekwondo would not be effective in UFC type fights? I hear it all the time. Taekwondo is dying out because of ufc style fighting. I think its bull but what do you think?


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 12, 2011)

Me too. Mostly from the guys in sequined tapout shirts but occasionally someone will have a good point.

Fighting experience is what helps MMA fighters, WTF TaeKwonDo offers a LOT of that. Plus good WTF fighters have maybe the best understanding of distance, circling and countering of any combat athletes.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 12, 2011)

First, welcome to MT.  Second, please introduce yourself in the new member's forum.  We'd love to get to know you.  Third, please do not start flame wars.  We all respect each other here, and we respect each other's MA style.  No one will say that this is better than that except in a very light-hearted way.  If you feel that MMA is not being respectful to TKD, you need to address that offline.  This discussion forum is not for the purpose of slamming other martial arts styles.  But again, welcome.  You may find you like it here; no one will give you any grief about your chosen style.


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## granfire (Dec 12, 2011)

I don't see TKD dying out any time soon.

It might be hard to find a cohesive group, but by in large, it's the biggest Martial Art. 

In any case (not being much of a fighter myself) I think the UFC deal supports a fighter who has more than one style going for him.

That might be BJJ on the ground game, but they still start out standing up. One of the slogans of my past organizations is paraphrased in my signature.


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## Pinigseu1 (Dec 12, 2011)

My deepest apologies in no way am I trying to start anything.  I guess I miss-worded. I only meant that with any fighting sport it seems that taekwondo is made to look not effective. I didn't mean to affend anyone.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 12, 2011)

Righteo:
A; The WTF is not dieing out due to the UFC.
B; There are ALREADY WTF TKD Practitioners IN the UFC.
C; I am not a part of the WTF. Just to affirm Im not biased.
D; To You and everyone else, bare in mind alot of People upon coming to Sites such as this lack Retrospect, due to having not discussed these things with other Practitioners of Systems. This is what Hes heard from whatever circles Hes been talking to, now He can hear from a broader mass. Even though this discussion has been had a million times. In other words, I for one know Youre not flaming. But if anyone treats it as such, its due to how many times this has had to be explained.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 12, 2011)

Pinigseu1 said:


> My deepest apologies in no way am I trying to start anything.  I guess I miss-worded. I only meant that with any fighting sport it seems that taekwondo is made to look not effective. I didn't mean to affend anyone.



No offense.  As a new user, you may not be aware that many people like to brag about their own martial art and pick fights about other martial arts that they think are inferior.  We don't do that here.  TKD is a terrific art, and as noted above, it's certainly not dying out.  Welcome, have fun, enjoy yourself.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 12, 2011)

As Ive said before, name me one top/elite tkd fighter who has had a UFC fight and got owned. People see this mma footage of some tkd guy getting killed in the ring, yet when you do any research on the tkd guy either no one has ever heard of him or he is some nobody with no credibility in tkd circles. I always wonder why no mma guy has ever been good enough to make it to the olympics for tkd. The reason is because its not what he does, he is an mma fighter not a tkd fighter, everyone seems to accept this but cant accept it the other way around. The other funny thing is that most people who bag out tkd have never even done any tkd beyond a couple of lessons and really, if someone hasnt actually trained in tkd for an extended period then I really dont care what their opinion of tkd is, because they are just re-hashing something they read somewhere on the internet. People also say there are 'gaps' in tkd training and its limited to a certain 'range', and then that same person will go and do bjj with no punching, no kicks, and roll around on the ground for an hour and they dont see the contradiction. I think it was bruce lee who said "comparing martial arts is for over-zealous beginners".


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## SPX (Dec 12, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No offense.  As a new user, you may not be aware that many people like to brag about their own martial art and pick fights about other martial arts that they think are inferior.  We don't do that here.  TKD is a terrific art, and as noted above, it's certainly not dying out.  Welcome, have fun, enjoy yourself.



Well in all fairness, it's a legitimate question.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 12, 2011)

SPX said:


> Well in all fairness, it's a legitimate question.


Thats been asked many times in many ways before  And it came across a bit differently to how He wanted it to.


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## SPX (Dec 12, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> As Ive said before, name me one top/elite tkd fighter who has had a UFC fight and got owned. People see this mma footage of some tkd guy getting killed in the ring, yet when you do any research on the tkd guy either no one has ever heard of him or he is some nobody with no credibility in tkd circles. I always wonder why no mma guy has ever been good enough to make it to the olympics for tkd. The reason is because its not what he does, he is an mma fighter not a tkd fighter, everyone seems to accept this but cant accept it the other way around. The other funny thing is that most people who bag out tkd have never even done any tkd beyond a couple of lessons and really, if someone hasnt actually trained in tkd for an extended period then I really dont care what their opinion of tkd is, because they are just re-hashing something they read somewhere on the internet. People also say there are 'gaps' in tkd training and its limited to a certain 'range', and then that same person will go and do bjj with no punching, no kicks, and roll around on the ground for an hour and they dont see the contradiction. I think it was bruce lee who said "comparing martial arts is for over-zealous beginners".




I think that what it ultimately comes down to is that the general consensus is that the most effective martial art is the one that can produce the most fighters who would do the best in a no-rules match.  After all, ultimately "fighting" is not about rules . . . it's about two guys meeting in a back alley where no one's around to referee the match.  Bring ALL your skills.  

I have a TKD background and love TKD.  But I also recognize that the ruleset holds it back.  What's unfortunate is that TKD DOES teach punches and kicks, knees and elbows, and at least in the case of the ITF (I can't speak to the WTF), some grappling.  But how much of this is legal in competition?  Not much, and consequently we see most schools/practitioners focusing much more on the skills that score points with little attention given to the techniques that are illegal.

A MT guy would usually own a TKD guy in an MT fight and TKD would usually own an MT guy in a TKD match.  But who would win if all rules were thrown out the window?  This is what people really give credence to.  That's just the way it is.

TKD is a great art but it needs to find its way back to its roots as a true combat system.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

SPX said:


> I think that what it ultimately comes down to is that the general consensus is that the most effective martial art is the one that can produce the most fighters who would do the best in a no-rules match.  After all, ultimately "fighting" is not about rules . . . it's about two guys meeting in a back alley where no one's around to referee the match.  Bring ALL your skills.
> 
> I have a TKD background and love TKD.  But I also recognize that the ruleset holds it back.  What's unfortunate is that TKD DOES teach punches and kicks, knees and elbows, and at least in the case of the ITF (I can't speak to the WTF), some grappling.  But how much of this is legal in competition?  Not much, and consequently we see most schools/practitioners focusing much more on the skills that score points with little attention given to the techniques that are illegal.
> 
> ...


Well, why the WTF and ITF should sway themselves back in that direction anyway. Though many of their Dojangs do these things outside of Competition. Then, many dont. And this is why Ive never had anything to do with Competition, or anywere that partakes in it.


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## SPX (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Thats been asked many times in many ways before  And it came across a bit differently to how He wanted it to.



I hear you.  I know it's an old topic.  But there's a part of me that feels like the question needs to be asked until TKD decides to change.

Honestly, I don't begrudge any organization their sparring rules.  I just wish that some organization--whether it be one of the main organizations or a renegade breakaway org--would make the decision to recognize the current state of martial arts.


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## SPX (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, why the WTF and ITF should sway themselves back in that direction anyway. Though many of their Dojangs do these things outside of Competition. Then, many dont. And this is why Ive never had anything to do with Competition, or anywere that partakes in it.



My problem is that I always hear these stories about these awesome dojangs who are doing it right, but I can never seem to find one.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're mythical.  But I AM saying that they are the exception to the rule.  I mean, I've seen a lot of awesome ITF vids on YouTube and it pumped me up to find a good ITF school.  But when I started to actually look into the ITF community around my city (Salt Lake) I was beyond disappointed.  This actually goes for the TKD community as a whole.

As far as competition goes, I actually think competition is cool.  People need an outlet to test their skills in relative safety.  But the rules need not be so restrictive as to be a mockery of the art.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

SPX said:


> My problem is that I always hear these stories about these awesome dojangs who are doing it right, but I can never seem to find one.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're mythical.  But I AM saying that they are the exception to the rule.  I mean, I've seen a lot of awesome ITF vids on YouTube and it pumped me up to find a good ITF school.  But when I started to actually look into the ITF community around my city (Salt Lake) I was beyond disappointed.  This actually goes for the TKD community as a whole.
> 
> As far as competition goes, I actually think competition is cool.  People need an outlet to test their skills in relative safety.  But the rules need not be so restrictive as to be a mockery of the art.


Heh - I often giggle at the fact that I managed to attend two good Dojangs in a row. First an ITF Dojang that tragically got guzzled into the Sportspool of Doom. Now a non-ITF/WTF/GTF Organisation that probably shouldnt be called Independent further than Independent of the ITF, WTF, and GTF. And they have a Country Wide Standard that needs to be met by all Dojang. So pretty much, Ive been fortunate enough to get the brilliant end of the stick overall.
That said, there was a time when all I knew of TKD was WTF Olympic Sparring. And it was not encouraging. Ill now just offhandedly praise Myself for not letting that put Me off the entire Art. I was able to see that that was a Sporting Competition.
And now, I actually really like watching Sport TKD, from both the WTF and ITF. Ill never, ever be a part of it but.
Now, ITF and WTF and GTF Dojangs doing it right? They ARE Exceptions to the Rule. Other Organisations will vary. Their Syllabus tends to be either very similar or extremely different. Some are "Modern", and some are "Traditional".
You just have to look around befittingly. And possibly in more obscure places.



SPX said:


> I hear you. I know it's an old topic. But there's a part of me that feels like the question needs to be asked until TKD decides to change.
> 
> Honestly, I don't begrudge any organization their sparring rules. I just wish that some organization--whether it be one of the main organizations or a renegade breakaway org--would make the decision to recognize the current state of martial arts.


Im sure plenty have done exactly that, and are outspoken into the gritty dirt.


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## lifespantkd (Dec 13, 2011)

SPX said:


> the most effective martial art is the one that can produce the most fighters who would do the best in a no-rules match.



While I understand that the original question in this thread related to the effectiveness of physical techniques, the quote above left me thinking about martial arts in a broader way. Specifically, some would argue that the most effective martial art is the one that produces the most practitioners who strive to develop the mind as well as physical technique. As Gichin Funakoshi, the father of modern Karate and the teacher of some of the founders of contemporary Taekwondo, wrote in Karate-Do: My Way of Life: "With Karate-do, by extending help to others and by accepting it from them, a man acquires the ability to elevate the art into a faith wherein he perfects both body and soul and so comes finally to recognize the true meaning of Karate-do.... Inasmuch as Karate-do aims at perfection of mind as well as body, expressions that extol only physical prowess should never be used in conjunction with it." 

Cynthia


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

lifespantkd said:


> While I understand that the original question in this thread related to the effectiveness of physical techniques, the quote above left me thinking about martial arts in a broader way. Specifically, some would argue that the most effective martial art is the one that produces the most practitioners who strive to develop the mind as well as physical technique. As Gichin Funakoshi, the father of modern Karate and the teacher of some of the founders of contemporary Taekwondo, wrote in Karate-Do: My Way of Life: "With Karate-do, by extending help to others and by accepting it from them, a man acquires the ability to elevate the art into a faith wherein he perfects both body and soul and so comes finally to recognize the true meaning of Karate-do.... Inasmuch as Karate-do aims at perfection of mind as well as body, expressions that extol only physical prowess should never be used in conjunction with it."
> 
> Cynthia


And I believe, that it is up to the Individual what THEY want to Learn, and not for someone to tell them what is best for Them.
Some People might want to strive to develop their Souls, Bodies, and Minds; Others want to become Effective Fighters; Others want to become better at Defending Themselves, and so forth.

While I am sure Gichin Funakoshi is Wise in His Way of Life, His Way is not the Way Everyone wants to Operate.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 13, 2011)

SPX said:


> You need to keep in mind that those videos often show top notch athletes training 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. Most schools do not have those types of athletes in huge numbers and cater to a larger population. People who aren't exceptional athleticaly and train 3 hours a week.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 13, 2011)

Pinigseu1 said:


> Hello i'm new here but glad to be. My question is why do some people think taekwondo would not be effective in UFC type fights? I hear it all the time. Taekwondo is dying out because of ufc style fighting. I think its bull but what do you think?



1. Bringing only TKD to a UFC style competition would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.  The UFC rules allow more techniques than any TKD competition and particularly a WTF competition.  
2. The floor of the cage is padded which slows down te "push off" for kicks. 
3. UFC fighters train against TKD type techniques. TKD fighters do not train agains many of the UFC allowed techniques (Why would they it would be a huge waste of time if they are focused on TKD competition.)

It's like saying a ping pong player would get killed in a tennis match. Of course they would. 

In 1975 we had an accomplished Judo / Ju Jitsu guy come to th school to improve his striking skills. When we saw what he could do if he got a hold of us you better believe we sucked up all we could from him vis a vis grappling. (At that time the Gracies were some vague rumor)  The rest shall we say is history.


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## miguksaram (Dec 13, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> While I am sure Gichin Funakoshi is Wise in His Way of Life, His Way is not the Way Everyone wants to Operate..



Which is why he went on to say that the karate he taught was not the karate he learned and as he went around to different dojo he saw that what his students or decedent of his students were not teaching the exact karate that he taught and he was ok with that.  He knew that karate had to be adapted to the individual and must evolve in order for it to grow.  That's why I get a kick out of hard core shotokan people who love to claim their way is the only way!...Reminds me a lot of some of us TKD people.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 13, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> 3. UFC fighters train against TKD type techniques.)



Actually I disagree with this, hence why fighters are starting to use more front kicks (two knockouts recently).  Precisely because pretty much all MMA fighters train against Muay Thai style kicks not Taekwondo style kicks.  This is why fighters like Cung Le, Anthony Pettis and Ben Henderson have done so well - their kicks are unorthodox in comparison to the majority of MMA fighters.

Even Lyoto Machida has success with his Karate-style kicks because they are different to the general kicks that MMA fighters are used to dealing with.

I'm still waiting for someone to land an axe kick in MMA!  That'll be awesome!


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Actually I disagree with this, hence why fighters are starting to use more front kicks (two knockouts recently).  Precisely because pretty much all MMA fighters train against Muay Thai style kicks not Taekwondo style kicks.  This is why fighters like Cung Le, Anthony Pettis and Ben Henderson have done so well - their kicks are unorthodox in comparison to the majority of MMA fighters.
> 
> Even Lyoto Machida has success with his Karate-style kicks because they are different to the general kicks that MMA fighters are used to dealing with.
> 
> *I'm still waiting for someone to land an axe kick in MMA!  That'll be awesome!*


Youtube, My Good Man


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Actually I disagree with this, hence why fighters are starting to use more front kicks (two knockouts recently). Precisely because pretty much all MMA fighters train against Muay Thai style kicks not Taekwondo style kicks. This is why fighters like Cung Le, Anthony Pettis and Ben Henderson have done so well - their kicks are unorthodox in comparison to the majority of MMA fighters.
> 
> Even Lyoto Machida has success with his Karate-style kicks because they are different to the general kicks that MMA fighters are used to dealing with.
> 
> I'm still waiting for someone to land an axe kick in MMA! That'll be awesome!



In this country the majority of MMA fighters are actually from TKD or karate rather than MT. I've seen axe kicks, front kicks, hook kicks etc all used in MMA here, we even teach them! MT is added in as well as is a lot of different styles, we use what works.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 13, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> In this country the majority of MMA fighters are actually from TKD or karate rather than MT. I've seen axe kicks, front kicks, hook kicks etc all used in MMA here, we even teach them! MT is added in as well as is a lot of different styles, we use what works.



As sad as this is (being a Brit), I virtually never watch any UK MMA unless it makes it to UFC (or WEC, Strikeforce).  May have to start though...


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## Cyriacus (Dec 13, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> As sad as this is (being a Brit), I virtually never watch any UK MMA unless it makes it to UFC (or WEC, Strikeforce).  May have to start though...


http://www.sherdog.com/videos/weeklybeatings

Its Free. What can I say.


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> As sad as this is (being a Brit), I virtually never watch any UK MMA unless it makes it to UFC (or WEC, Strikeforce). May have to start though...



You will find UK MMA a bit different because we have cultural differences, the Americans have a lot of wrestlers as it's a sport taught in schools and colleges ( it would be good if anything like that was taught here) while we have the traditional ground game ie Judo, JJ and BJJ. Even our Olympic wrestlers aren't British being brought in from the old Eastern Bloc. We have most fighters coming from a TMA background rather than boxing, boxing here doesn't like us, Barry Hearn for one swearing he'll see us banned.
There's more Brit MMA on tele these days if you have satellite or Freeview, I'm Pm you when I know somes on though ideally go to a good MMA show, it's fun and enjoyable.


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2011)

One of my favourites, Marius from London Shoot.


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## Grenadier (Dec 13, 2011)

It's really not a valid thing to compare your typical martial arts student, to a mixed martial arts competitor. 

First, and foremost, most MMA competitors that you see competing at UFC, Strikeforce, etc., are excellent athletes in prime physical condition.  Even without the martial arts knowledge, they're going to be strong forces in combat.  After all, the bigger, stronger guy in better physical condition is going to win most of his fights.  

Second, is the fact that the game of MMA has changed throughout the years.  At first, the competition was more of a "my style vs. your style" that was done in a setting that favored grappling.  Someone with a pure wrestling or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu background could thrive in such a setting, especially since most fighters were unfamiliar with the ground game.  There were many kickboxers, boxers, Savate, etc., who were very much frustrated by the ability of the BJJ guys to neutralize their striking skills.  

It didn't take long for everyone to realize that a good wrestler or Judo-ka could certainly neutralize or beat a good Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner or vice-versa.  Even last Saturday's UFC event shows that a freak athlete the likes of Jon Jones, with his excellent wrestling skills, could take out Lyoto Machida, a fellow with an excellent Brazilian Jiu Jitsu background (even though his main art is Shotokan Karate), where he really overpowered him with a strong ground and pound game. 

At the same time, it didn't take much for everyone to realize that as everyone started becoming familiar with the grappling game, that the grapplers had to learn how to finish off opponents with strikes as well.  I remember Mark Coleman, a pure wrestler at the time, fighting against Maurice Smith, a kickboxer who had also studied grappling extensively, and knew how to defend against them very well.  Coleman was able to get the mount, yet was unable to finish off Smith, who then proceeded to deliver quite a beating to Coleman.  The same held true for Dan "The Beast" Severn, another classical wrestler who lacked the finishing skills needed to quickly end the matches against some of the tougher opponents (even though he did win).  


Please note, that this isn't a bash against the grapplers.  Grappling arts the likes of wrestling, Judo, Ju Jutsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, etc., are all excellent arts, and I have a very healthy respect for those who train in any of the above; the same respect goes to anyone who trains in any respected martial art, including Tae Kwon Do.  

If anything, grappling arts are still the basis for most MMA competition, and without knowledge in them, a competitor is going to get squashed pretty quickly.  

These days, everyone who competes in things such as UFC, Strikeforce, etc., are going to have knowledge in both grappling and striking.  That's why it's now Mixed Martial Arts, and not a "my style vs. your style."  You can pick almost any number of combinations of different systems, and they'll work just fine, such as Boxing + Wrestling, Karate + Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Kickboxing  + Wrestling, Tae Kwon Do + Wrestling, etc.


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## mxav (Dec 13, 2011)

Pinigseu1 said:


> Hello i'm new here but glad to be. My question is why do some people think taekwondo would not be effective in UFC type fights? I hear it all the time. Taekwondo is dying out because of ufc style fighting. I think its bull but what do you think?



effective how? In sport both have different focuses, in self defense both are sports and not the ideal


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## SPX (Dec 13, 2011)

lifespantkd said:


> While I understand that the original question in this thread related to the effectiveness of physical techniques, the quote above left me thinking about martial arts in a broader way. Specifically, some would argue that the most effective martial art is the one that produces the most practitioners who strive to develop the mind as well as physical technique. As Gichin Funakoshi, the father of modern Karate and the teacher of some of the founders of contemporary Taekwondo, wrote in Karate-Do: My Way of Life: "With Karate-do, by extending help to others and by accepting it from them, a man acquires the ability to elevate the art into a faith wherein he perfects both body and soul and so comes finally to recognize the true meaning of Karate-do.... Inasmuch as Karate-do aims at perfection of mind as well as body, expressions that extol only physical prowess should never be used in conjunction with it."
> 
> Cynthia




That's a legitimate perspective, but it's another conversation.  My statement was solely in regard to Karate as a way of overcoming another person in combat.  

 I also think that there's a question regarding how karate can help one perfect their "soul."  What is it about karate that does this?  Furthermore, what is it about karate that does this in a way that can't be accomplished with other physical activities, like football, rock climbing or running?

To be honest, whenever people talk about using martial arts as a way of refining themselves spiritually I'm frankly never sure exactly what they're talking about.  Do they mean that the physical movements help them transcend regular consciousness?  Do they mean that the Buddhist-influenced philosophy helps them to understand the world differently?

I just don't know.  Quite frankly, I'm not even sure that most people who make such statements know.


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## SPX (Dec 13, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> You need to keep in mind that those videos often show top notch athletes training 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. Most schools do not have those types of athletes in huge numbers and cater to a larger population. People who aren't exceptional athleticaly and train 3 hours a week.



I understand.  My criticisms really have more to do with the focus of the training.  For one, it's just not serious.  Adults are training with kids . . . and the kids outnumber the adults 3 to 1.  

I actually did make it as far as my yellow belt testing.  In three months under my instructor--one of the more respected instructors in the area--there was not an ounce of sparring, and this includes all the colored belts.  And at the testing, which includes many of the organizations local head honchos, there were red belts testing and they didn't have to spar during the test to get promoted.

There just seems to be a sense of terror surrounding people actually hitting each other.  I at least know that the local WTF school has an entire class per week dedicated to sparring.


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## SPX (Dec 13, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> 1. Bringing only TKD to a UFC style competition would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.  The UFC rules allow more techniques than any TKD competition and particularly a WTF competition.
> 2. The floor of the cage is padded which slows down te "push off" for kicks.
> 3. UFC fighters train against TKD type techniques. TKD fighters do not train agains many of the UFC allowed techniques (Why would they it would be a huge waste of time if they are focused on TKD competition.)
> 
> ...




Good post.  I agree.  I think TKD can be a legitimate striking base for MMA, but you have to train it in a way that's applicable to MMA, and you also have to be able to defend the takedown and survive on the ground.

John Makdessi, who unfortunately just got grapple-raped at the last UFC but went 3-0 in the org before that, has a TKD and Karate base.  And I know that Anthony Pettis comes from a TKD background.  You can see it in both fighters, especially Makdessi.

Here's another guy who has been able to adapt his TKD to MMA with decent results:


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## SPX (Dec 13, 2011)

Grenadier said:


> Even last Saturday's UFC event shows that a freak athlete the likes of Jon Jones, with his excellent wrestling skills, could take out Lyoto Machida, a fellow with an excellent Brazilian Jiu Jitsu background (even though his main art is Shotokan Karate), where he really overpowered him with a strong ground and pound game.



Machida has a wrestling background of his own though, in the form of Sumo.  Even though Machida didn't last as long as Rampage or Shogun, he really gave Jones a better test then either of those guys, winning in the first round in most people's opinions.  But Jones is just a freak.  Not sure who's going to be able to beat that guy.  He may be champ for a long time.


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## SPX (Dec 13, 2011)

mxav said:


> effective how? In sport both have different focuses, in self defense both are sports and not the ideal



Well you at least have to acknowledge that someone who trains at an MMA gym is likely to end up the guy who is more suited for a self-defense situation, if for no other reason than that his training will provide him with substantial grappling ability.


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## MJS (Dec 13, 2011)

Pinigseu1 said:


> Hello i'm new here but glad to be. My question is why do some people think taekwondo would not be effective in UFC type fights? I hear it all the time. Taekwondo is dying out because of ufc style fighting. I think its bull but what do you think?



I'm not a TKD person, but I'll toss in my .02.   IMO, due to the ruleset, unless the art was modified for the cage, or unless the TKDist has knowledge of the ground, no, its probably not going to work.  I think we've seen proof of the 1 dimensional fighters from the early UFC days.  You had 1 style fighters competing to see who was best.  Every time, the grappler won.  

But, don't let that discourage you from training in the art.  If I had a dollar for every time someone said something about the arts I do, I'd be a very rich man....lol.  Who cares what people think.  If you're happy, keep on training.


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 13, 2011)

SPX said:


> I understand.  My criticisms really have more to do with the focus of the training.  For one, it's just not serious.  Adults are training with kids . . . and the kids outnumber the adults 3 to 1.
> 
> I actually did make it as far as my yellow belt testing.  In three months under my instructor--one of the more respected instructors in the area--there was not an ounce of sparring, and this includes all the colored belts.  And at the testing, which includes many of the organizations local head honchos, there were red belts testing and they didn't have to spar during the test to get promoted.
> 
> There just seems to be a sense of terror surrounding people actually hitting each other.  I at least know that the local WTF school has an entire class per week dedicated to sparring.



I run a sparring class once a week too, kids get in as soon as I think they're ready. 

What I do is explain a few tricks I like or something that works for me or I've seen and liked, we drill it maybe 5-10 times, and then we spar for the rest of the class.

Hey, I'm a brown belt! Cool!


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## puunui (Dec 13, 2011)

Pinigseu1 said:


> Hello i'm new here but glad to be. My question is why do some people think taekwondo would not be effective in UFC type fights?




Because they have little or no experience with true taekwondo. Taekwondo is effective in MMA or UFC fighting. I have students who are very successful in MMA using taekwondo as their bread and butter stand up game. Using taekwondo, we take away punches, they don't like getting full force kicked in the leg or dropped with a back kick on their shoot. So they try to take a leg kick and then shoot, we use footwork to escape, or if not, the game goes to the ground and you do something else. That's why it is called mixed martial arts, because you use different arts at different ranges. Saying taekwondo isn't effective in MMA is like saying boxing is ineffective.


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## Grenadier (Dec 13, 2011)

SPX said:


> I actually did make it as far as my yellow belt testing.  In three months under my instructor--one of the more respected instructors in the area--there was not an ounce of sparring, and this includes all the colored belts.  And at the testing, which includes many of the organizations local head honchos, there were red belts testing and they didn't have to spar during the test to get promoted.



This isn't entirely unusual at all.  

There are a good number of schools who don't allow their students to do free sparring until they hit near black belt.  While it may sound silly, there is a reason to this.  

By the time they're advanced students, their fundamental technique is of sufficient quality, that when they go into the ring, they're going to be able to do well anyways.  For a while, our school did this, that nobody under brown belt was allowed to free spar, unless they were specifically training for competition.  Even though this restriction was in place, by the time they hit brown belt, their sparring was clean, strong, and effective, since their techniques and basics were sufficiently polished enough, that I didn't have to worry about how much control they could exhibit.  

For that matter, when we take the ones who were raised under this policy, to the USA-NKF regional qualifier tournaments, they can spar just as well as any of the others out there, and this is against quality competition as well, not some no-name, undisciplined tournament. 

By the time they became black belts (usually within a year of becoming brown belt), they could do free sparring as well as any in the nation.  They weren't gun shy about sparring, and had levels of physical conditioning that were good enough, that they could take a decent shot to the body, and keep going without developing a sense of fear.  

A lot of times, the worst thing for a beginner, or even intermediate, student can experience, is taking a very hard shot to the body, and not being ready to take such a blow.  As a result, a lot of times, they can end up fighting in a scared manner, that they're afraid to take the initiative and be the aggressor.  A lot of these folks then start using purely defensive methods, and this hinders their development.  



> There just seems to be a sense of terror surrounding people actually hitting each other.  I at least know that the local WTF school has an entire class per week dedicated to sparring.



Again, it's not necessarily a bad idea to hold off on the solid contact until later.  This way, you have better control from the people throwing the techniques, and better capacity to absorb a hit from the recipient.  

Does it appeal to everyone?  

No.  

There are a lot of people who want to put on the fist pads and shin guards, and start sparring right away, and may get frustrated when we tell them they have to wait a bit before doing actual free sparring.  However, once they see the development of the beginners and early intermediate students when it comes to their techniques, and see how their one step sparring (ippon kumite) has greatly aided their sense of direction, discipline, distancing, focus, power, and balance, they begin to understand that there's a good reason why this method works.  

In the end, you retain more students this way, and they end up being able to spar as well as anyone out there.  This method simply requires a bit more patience, but produces excellent results.


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## SPX (Dec 13, 2011)

I would definitely never stay at a school where I have to wait more than 3 months to start sparring.  There's just no reason for it.  Grenadier, I'm sure everything you've said is true, but that's definitely not a path that would appeal to me, or honestly a path that I think is maximally efficient.

In Judo, you start doing Randori immediately.  In a kickboxing gym, it's the same way . . . almost immediate sparring.  There's a good reason for that, in my opinion.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2011)

"Grapple raped"??? Now that's not a nice expression.

I can give you a long list of British MMA fighters who have BB in TKD and karate, some still practicing these. MMA is what it says on the tin (how many times have I said this now?) it's MIXED repeat MIXED martial arts, using as many of the tradtional arts as you can/want/know. TKD is as good a standup art as any other. However to say fighters don't like leg kicks is misleading, many train MT as well and take leg kicks as a matter of course.
All MMA people I know say grappling is not what you want to be doing in a self defence situation, if you are really really stuck on the floor use it of course but you want to be up on your feet asap.

SPX, you've posted this in the TKD section but are also talking a lot about karate as if the two were the same, it's a tad confusing, which do you actually mean?


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## WC_lun (Dec 14, 2011)

It is pretty simple really.  If you train for point fighting, Olympic style TKD, you aren't training for MMA and you won't do very well in it.  Just like if a MMA fighter tried to do Olympic style sparring, he would not be able to do well.  The issue becomes when people think you can train for one thing and be good at another.  It does not work that way.  You will fight (perform a sport) how you train.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2011)

SPX said:


> I would definitely never stay at a school where I have to wait more than 3 months to start sparring.  There's just no reason for it.  Grenadier, I'm sure everything you've said is true, but that's definitely not a path that would appeal to me, or honestly a path that I think is maximally efficient.
> 
> In Judo, you start doing Randori immediately.  In a kickboxing gym, it's the same way . . . almost immediate sparring.  There's a good reason for that, in my opinion.


I have to disagree. We dont spar until blue belt (9 months of training), starting sparring too early can cause sloppiness of technique, loss of confidence and unneccessary injuries. A student should first grasp the basics and start committing them to muscle memory before sparring begins in my opinion. Martial arts is a very long journey, there's plenty of time for sparring after the beginner has gone through the early stages of training and has begun to grasp what its all about.


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## SPX (Dec 14, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> "Grapple raped"??? Now that's not a nice expression.



Well in the case of Dennis Hallman, maybe "wrestle-raped" would be more accurate, but yeah, that's what happened




Tez3 said:


> All MMA people I know say grappling is not what you want to be doing in a self defence situation, if you are really really stuck on the floor use it of course but you want to be up on your feet asap.



I would say that being on your back and in guard is not what you want.  But judo is an excellent art for self-defense, with its throws and top-control.  Would you want to get slammed to the ground--or potentially spiked on your head--on the concrete?  It could be devastating.  Deadly even.  Judo is scary dangerous off the mats.




Tez3 said:


> SPX, you've posted this in the TKD section but are also talking a lot about karate as if the two were the same, it's a tad confusing, which do you actually mean?



I have a TKD background.  But we all know that TKD came from Shotokan.  Yes, TKD has changed a lot over the years (more so when it comes to the WTF), but the arts are still very similar.  I'm not implying that they're interchangeable, but it's like talking about two brothers who are still quite close.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 14, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have to disagree. We dont spar until blue belt (9 months of training), starting sparring too early can cause sloppiness of technique, loss of confidence and unneccessary injuries. A student should first grasp the basics and start committing them to muscle memory before sparring begins in my opinion. Martial arts is a very long journey, there's plenty of time for sparring after the beginner has gone through the early stages of training and has begun to grasp what its all about.


There are ways for it to work - Light Sparring can Train in Ranging early on. But it has to be closely monitored. 



SPX said:


> I would say that being on your back and in guard is not what you want. But judo is an excellent art for self-defense, with its throws and top-control. Would you want to get slammed to the ground--or potentially spiked on your head--on the concrete? It could be devastating. Deadly even. Judo is scary dangerous off the mats.



Blunt Forced Trauma isnt exactly any better.


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## SPX (Dec 14, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have to disagree. We dont spar until blue belt (9 months of training), starting sparring too early can cause sloppiness of technique, loss of confidence and unneccessary injuries. A student should first grasp the basics and start committing them to muscle memory before sparring begins in my opinion. Martial arts is a very long journey, there's plenty of time for sparring after the beginner has gone through the early stages of training and has begun to grasp what its all about.



Personally, I feel like you learn by doing.

When I visited an MT gym recently I was invited to spar after a single class.  Why?  Because you learn by taking a technique that you've learned in class and actually applying it in real life.  

If you don't mind, allow me to quote from a Feb. 2011 Black Belt magazine article with Scott Adkins, TKDist-turned-Kickboxer (who eventually became an actor):

"Pretty much anyone can learn to throw a punch or kick within one lesson . . . The only way to get your stand-up to function right is to spar.  It's one thing to be able to hit a pad or punching bag hard; it's another to hit a moving target while trying to not to get hit.  You have to be comfortable trading blows with an opponent inside the pocket."

I think that to say a person needs 9 months+ of training before they should spar is simply a fallacy.  Sparring should begin extremely early on.  At white belt, you learn to do a reverse punch and a few kicks.  Then you test.  Then you become a yellow belt because you have demonstrated proficiency in those skills.  So it's not time to try to use them in a live environment?

THIS is the problem with taekwondo.  I call it Ostrich-Ryu.  Head in the sand.  People just doing things the way they've always been done because that's what they were taught.  

This is a new era.  Judo and MT guys spar almost immediately once they begin training . . . is it a coincidence that they both happen to be effective at employing their art in real time?  No!  They are effective PRECISELY because they begin doing so as early as possible.

I love TKD, but we as a community have to stop making excuses.  It's really no wonder the style is widely regarded as an art for women and kids, or people who just want a good workout.  It's not like there's any real fighting involved.


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## SPX (Dec 14, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Blunt Forced Trauma isnt exactly any better.



What do you mean?


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## andyjeffries (Dec 14, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> You will find UK MMA a bit different because we have cultural differences, the Americans have a lot of wrestlers as it's a sport taught in schools and colleges ( it would be good if anything like that was taught here) while we have the traditional ground game ie Judo, JJ and BJJ. Even our Olympic wrestlers aren't British being brought in from the old Eastern Bloc. We have most fighters coming from a TMA background rather than boxing, boxing here doesn't like us, Barry Hearn for one swearing he'll see us banned.



Thanks for that, very interesting to hear the perspective of a UK MMAist.



Tez3 said:


> There's more Brit MMA on tele these days if you have satellite or Freeview, I'm Pm you when I know somes on though ideally go to a good MMA show, it's fun and enjoyable.



Definitely, please do PM me when you know something good is coming up.

I've been to two UFCs in the UK (not the last one) and they were awesome.  I was planning on going to everyone but was due to be going away for work when the last one was on so I didn't get a ticket (then ended up not needing to go away).


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## SPX (Dec 14, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I've been to two UFCs in the UK (not the last one) and they were awesome.  I was planning on going to everyone but was due to be going away for work when the last one was on so I didn't get a ticket (then ended up not needing to go away).



So do you guys get annoyed that Michael Bisping is always in the main event or is that awesome?


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## andyjeffries (Dec 14, 2011)

The BTCB Syllabus (you can google for it, it's freely downloadable) says the following on sparring:

_*All students, at all grades, should practise sparring*, unless there are medical grounds to forbid it. Sparring consists of various forms, including (amongst others) three-step sparring, one-step sparring, one-for-one kicking and free sparring. Free sparring may be non-contact, light-contact or full-contact. *Full-contact free sparring is not permitted until the students have reached at least 9th kup*. Instructors should assess students abilities and behaviour before allowing them to participate in free sparring. All forms of free sparring should be practised under full WTF rules. Instructors must ensure that they and their students are familiar with the latest rules and competition procedures. Students must have all personal protective equipment (PPE) (mouth, head, trunk, arm, hand, leg, and groin guards).  PPE is compulsory for light-contact and full-contact sparring practice and for any form of self-defence practice that involves contact or the use of weapons (e.g., wooden practice knives)._

So they advocate all students start sparring, but only light contact until they've passed their first test.

In my club (children only), white belts spar with the instructors (which is more just messing around to get their confidence up that they can move in and out and try their kicks).  When they reach yellow tags, they do sparring drills against other students.  When they reach yellow belt (and have at least a hogu and head protector) then they can spar with other students.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 14, 2011)

SPX said:


> What do you mean?


Being dumped on ones Head is not fun.
Blunt Forced Trauma Injuries arent a sponge bath by Pixies either.

I wasnt contradicting You - Im more saying as an expansion, that being slammed into Concrete is not fun, and nor is Blunt Forced Trauma. That thing that happens when Youre struck by something hard with a decent level of force. Like someones Fist. Being dumped on Your Head after being put into a controlled position, then taken down/thrown is akin to being put into a controlled position, then having a decent shot put into the side of your skull. And even if the Punch is untrained, and delivers little Power, Your Head hitting the same Concrete as You go down? Not much different.

The Reason I add this expansion whenever I see statements about being dumped on ones head, I see fit to say this, simply because being dumped on ones head isnt much different in terms of outcome to having ones head hit hard. It just comes accross more, whats the word, visceral. Like a Nightstick and a Baseball Bat. The Baseball Bat tends to look more malign, even if the Nightstick is more wieldly for that purpose. Both ways will seriously harm someone, much like how both Weapons will. But People tend to perceive them as though they were totally different subject matters, when theyre both just different means to the same end: Blunt Forced Trauma.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 14, 2011)

SPX said:


> So do you guys get annoyed that Michael Bisping is always in the main event or is that awesome?



Personally I'd rather see some of the other big names, but it doesn't annoy me.  I quite like him (he's a typical brit, in to winding people up).  Neither is it awesome though (although watching Dan Hardy at UFC 105 was GREAT!)


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## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2011)

My students might wait several months to start sparring.  They'll work with partners and do other drills -- but I'm not having them try to apply tools in a free sparring setting until they actually have a few to use...  That approach may not seem acceptable to everyone, but without the time to develop a few tools, all they end up doing is flailing around.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 14, 2011)

On the Topic of Sparring, I think Sparring is good from the Get-Go.
But, it cant be full-on Sparring. Getting a Beginner to full-on Spar, especially against another Beginner, will only end in someone getting hurt, or it will be rather pointless.
Even Boxers learn the Basics before they Spar. And they Spar pretty early on. Most times Days after joining, sometimes Weeks. I hear some Gyms make it Months.

Slow, Light Sparring so they can practice combinations and striking methods against a Non-Compliant Foe, I believe will give them a better baseline for Ranging, Mindset, and Idealogy later on. It lets them practice things that you just cant practice on a pad or bag, and lets them 'see' what they are learning. Technique should also be focused on for this. Being put up with someone much better who can Teach them things in the process works best.

Then when they start getting decent in a few months time (Or weeks, or days, depending on the intent of the Sparring and whatnot. This is a very complex subject. Im just saying Months for optimal effect. Where I am, its Weeks. But it works in pretty well. Ill edit in a Link at the end of some KKW WTF Lower Belts Sparring decently for their levels, leading to the conclusion of how things are taught being a factor), then the Transition to full-on Sparring isnt as immediate. All thats changed is the Speed, Power, and a bit of the Technique goes out of it.


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## frank raud (Dec 14, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Being dumped on ones Head is not fun.
> Blunt Forced Trauma Injuries arent a sponge bath by Pixies either.
> 
> I wasnt contradicting You - Im more saying as an expansion, that being slammed into Concrete is not fun, and nor is Blunt Forced Trauma. That thing that happens when Youre struck by something hard with a decent level of force. Like someones Fist. Being dumped on Your Head after being put into a controlled position, then taken down/thrown is akin to being put into a controlled position, then having a decent shot put into the side of your skull. And even if the Punch is untrained, and delivers little Power, Your Head hitting the same Concrete as You go down? Not much different.
> ...



You believe that being thrown on your head onto concrete is equivalent to be punched in the head? Study physics much?


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## Cyriacus (Dec 14, 2011)

frank raud said:


> You believe that being thrown on your head onto concrete is equivalent to be punched in the head? Study physics much?


At no point did I say that.
I am saying, that both can injure You quite badly.
And since We freely assume one can just walk over and headslam someone, it isnt exactly a leap into the abyss to be able to boot their skull after putting them into a position from which to do so, much like how you put someone into a position from which to throw/takedown them.

If it makes some folks feel any better, Ive learnt both Methods. Both work.
Thats My point. Both will inflict Blunt Forced Trauma Injuries. But because one of them is dumping someone on their Head, People visualise that more graphically than being Struck. When both are inflicting Injury.
Im sure plenty of folks here have had a Rib smacked in or broken in one hit. Perhaps not the first hit, but the first hit to that Rib.
But apparently if someone is thrown onto concrete and it breaks a Rib, it is visualised more graphically.

Perhaps You should read the part where I said "I am _*not*_ contradicting You"

EDIT: Oh, I see. You saw where I said it wasnt much different, and numbed the whole thing down to that.
I meant, both are inflicting Blunt Forced Trauma, and both can seriously harm You in one swift move, if not permenantly harm You. It needs to be read in Context. My whole point wasnt about that, but rather about how People tend to more graphically think of Head-Dumping as compared to Power Striking.


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## frank raud (Dec 14, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> At no point did I say that.
> I am saying, that both can injure You quite badly.
> And since We freely assume one can just walk over and headslam someone, it isnt exactly a leap into the abyss to be able to boot their skull after putting them into a position from which to do so, much like how you put someone into a position from which to throw/takedown them.
> 
> ...



IF someone is literally dumped on their head, there is a large mass coming behind it,namely their body. Figure another 150-200 lbs in motion rapidly decelerating with a hinge(the neck) between what first hit the ground and the mass of the body. A punch can do major damage to the head,but rarely breaks a neck. Landing head first can do as much(probably more) damage to the head, with the very real possibility of a neck break. Might be the reason many sports(or martial arts in competition) allow you to hit the head with fists,elbows or knees(depending on rules),but no sport allows you to dump someone on their head.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2011)

SPX said:


> So do you guys get annoyed that Michael Bisping is always in the main event or is that awesome?



Not sure what you mean, the majority of proper MMA fans aren't so impressed with UFC here, it's mostly the armchair fans that go, sorry Andy! UFC is far too expensive, the average ticket price for shows here is £20-30 whereas the UFC is probably triple that. We don't much like Bisping either, we support him only when he's fighting 'foreigners' because he's a Brit. He's fought on our promotion twice, the first time being his pro debut fight. We much prefer Uk shows like BAMMA and Cagewarriors as well as the smaller regional ones. Dan Hardy is okay, we have some tremendous fighters though who can't afford to become fulltime but still fight pro rules, that's where the gold is.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 14, 2011)

frank raud said:


> IF someone is literally dumped on their head, there is a large mass coming behind it,namely their body. Figure another 150-200 lbs in motion rapidly decelerating with a hinge(the neck) between what first hit the ground and the mass of the body. A punch can do major damage to the head,but rarely breaks a neck. Landing head first can do as much(probably more) damage to the head, with the very real possibility of a neck break. Might be the reason many sports(or martial arts in competition) allow you to hit the head with fists,elbows or knees(depending on rules),but no sport allows you to dump someone on their head.


Yes, which inflicts Blunt Forced Trauma to their Head.
This is My point. I am NOT debating which causes more Damage, I am attempting to discuss that they both inflict the same, lets Rephrase to, Archetype of Injury, but that People tend to be more, lets rephrase to, Alarmed by, being dumped on their Heads when both are able to inflict a great deal of Injuring Damage.

Re-Read My Original Reply with this in Mind, Good Sir.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> Because they have little or no experience with true taekwondo. Taekwondo is effective in MMA or UFC fighting. I have students who are very successful in MMA using taekwondo as their bread and butter stand up game. Using taekwondo, we take away punches, they don't like getting full force kicked in the leg or dropped with a back kick on their shoot. So they try to take a leg kick and then shoot, we use footwork to escape, or if not, the game goes to the ground and you do something else. That's why it is called mixed martial arts, because you use different arts at different ranges. Saying taekwondo isn't effective in MMA is like saying boxing is ineffective.



I think your point is well taken, but the OP needs to understand that the question as he posted seems to limit things to "If you only do what you learn in TKD (or boxing for that matter) COMPETITION, then you will not be effective in MMA."  

Similarly we see many great MMA guys with strong wrestling backgrounds. However, if they only relied on wrestling skills, they would be in a heap of trouble in MMA. 

So, while you can build on a particular core, that cannot be relied on exclusively.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think your point is well taken, but the OP needs to understand that the question as he posted seems to limit things to "If you only do what you learn in TKD (or boxing for that matter) COMPETITION, then you will not be effective in MMA."
> 
> Similarly we see many great MMA guys with strong wrestling backgrounds. However, if they only relied on wrestling skills, they would be in a heap of trouble in MMA.
> 
> So, while you can build on a particular core, that cannot be relied on exclusively.



The 'art' of and MMA fighter is in being able to meld together the techniques needed for an MMA fight from the other martial arts. It's actually quite simple in theory, difficult in practice but effective in fighting once mastered.


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## kbarrett (Dec 14, 2011)

Any martial art style will work, it may not work the way you train in the dojang (dojo) and it's not suppost to, the dojang is where you practice different drills and sharpen skills, for that time you need to defend yourself or family, self-defense is an instinctive reaction to an attack by armed or un-armed attakers. And it's really up the the student he/she trains hard and pushes themselves right to the edge, the instructor can guide you but you have to make you, and that the way it's always been.


Ken


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## SPX (Dec 14, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Being dumped on ones Head is not fun.
> Blunt Forced Trauma Injuries arent a sponge bath by Pixies either.



I agree.  In judo, we talk about about "hitting the person with the ground."  Personally, I'd rather someone hit me with a fist than hit me with a fast-moving piece of concrete, but I agree that both are effective and deadly.

I also think that everyone should either have a standup art and a grappling art, or study a style that has both elements built-in.


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## SPX (Dec 14, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> . . . although watching Dan Hardy at UFC 105 was GREAT!



I like Hardy.  He's a cool cat.  I hate the way he's fallen on tough times lately.  Hopefully he'll get a gimme fight next to get back on track, because I don't think he can survive another loss without getting cut.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> My students might wait several months to start sparring.  They'll work with partners and do other drills -- but I'm not having them try to apply tools in a free sparring setting until they actually have a few to use...  That approach may not seem acceptable to everyone, but without the time to develop a few tools, all they end up doing is flailing around.


This is my way of thinking. My original instructor likened it to a carpentry apprenticeship. You dont get some kid on his first day on the building site and just strap a tool belt to him of heaps of tools (most dangerous) and let him loose on the job. You first explain each tool and its use to them and let them practice using it and once they have an understanding of how each tool works and have some experience using them, then you ease them into the real thing. To me, saying to a white belt on his first night of class "here's a couple of kicks and punches, now pad up, jump in line and start sparring", is just ridiculous.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2011)

SPX said:


> I agree.  In judo, we talk about about "hitting the person with the ground."  Personally, I'd rather someone hit me with a fist than hit me with a fast-moving piece of concrete, but I agree that both are effective and deadly.
> 
> I also think that everyone should either have a standup art and a grappling art, or study a style that has both elements built-in.


It really depends how 'good' you want to be. If there is one thing Ive learned its that the 'average guy on the street' really cant fight that well. Anyone who trains hard in an art and gets some good experience under their belt is going to be 'effective' in most situations, unless of course some guy at a bar who is 6 foot 7, weighs 125kgs and has 3 blackbelts just happens to not like the look of you. You can do a stand up art plus a grappling art, but maybe you should also start doing weights and running marathons for cardio fitness and having a diet full of protein and condition your arms and legs by belting them against steel posts etc. Basically, choose an art, train hard at it and understand how it works and you will be right most of the time. Oh, and also just avoid fights, thats the best form of self defence there is.


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## SPX (Dec 14, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> This is my way of thinking. My original instructor likened it to a carpentry apprenticeship. You dont get some kid on his first day on the building site and just strap a tool belt to him of heaps of tools (most dangerous) and let him loose on the job. You first explain each tool and its use to them and let them practice using it and once they have an understanding of how each tool works and have some experience using them, then you ease them into the real thing. To me, saying to a white belt on his first night of class "here's a couple of kicks and punches, now pad up, jump in line and start sparring", is just ridiculous.



Personally, I think that if you have someone who has no fighting experience at all and force him to fight every day for a year, then he will naturally learn to get better.  Each day will be a lesson and he'll slowly figure out what works and what doesn't, and at the end of 365 days, he'll probably be a pretty dangerous guy.  And that's without any formal training.  Add in professional instruction to make adjustments and all the better.

I do feel like a brief period of instruction on technique should come first, but aren't we overplaying it if we pretend like it's really THAT hard to learn the mechanics of throwing a punch?  Or a kick?  It's easy to get good at beating up the air or a punching bag.  What's difficult is learning how to beat up a resisting person and the ONLY way to gain those skills is sparring.

Let me ask you this. . .  What do you with a guy who has transferred from another style?  He's already a trained martial artist but in TKD terms he's a white belt.  Does he really need months or years of training before he gets to spar?


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 14, 2011)

SPX said:


> Personally, I think that if you have someone who has no fighting experience at all and force him to fight every day for a year, then he will naturally learn to get better.  Each day will be a lesson and he'll slowly figure out what works and what doesn't, and at the end of 365 days, he'll probably be a pretty dangerous guy.  And that's without any formal training.  Add in professional instruction to make adjustments and all the better.
> 
> I do feel like a brief period of instruction on technique should come first, but aren't we overplaying it if we pretend like it's really THAT hard to learn the mechanics of throwing a punch?  Or a kick?  It's easy to get good at beating up the air or a punching bag.  What's difficult is learning how to beat up a resisting person and the ONLY way to gain those skills is sparring.
> 
> Let me ask you this. . .  What do you with a guy who has transferred from another style?  He's already a trained martial artist but in TKD terms he's a white belt.  Does he really need months or years of training before he gets to spar?


I can only speak on behalf of where I train, but if a new student comes in with previous training in martial arts they start at white belt. After 3 months they can grade and if the GM thinks they are too advanced for yellow belt he automatically skips them to the level he thinks they are at. The highest they can skip to is red belt, so they would still require 2 years training minimum before being allowed to grade for 1st dan. Its funny watching people who spar too early because they can stand there and do all the techs really well with good technique, then they jump on the floor and spar and all technique goes out the window, they freak out and their kicks are just thrown out there any which way, their stances and footwork gets lost and they either stand their flailing out random kicks and punches or they just back peddle. You are right though, if someone fights everyday for a year they will improve rapidly. If they spent 6 months getting perfect technique and then sparred every day for the next 6 months I think they would improve quicker. Martial arts is not about a quick fix, it is a long journey, and to become really good you need very solid foundations so you can continue to build.


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## SPX (Dec 14, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its funny watching people who spar too early because they can stand there and do all the techs really well with good technique, then they jump on the floor and spar and all technique goes out the window, they freak out and their kicks are just thrown out there any which way, their stances and footwork gets lost and they either stand their flailing out random kicks and punches or they just back peddle.



Well I think that's just about being thrown into a new situation.  In the military, you will have soldiers who do great in training but when it comes to being thrown into real combat the "fog of war" takes over and chaos ensues.  But like anything, the more you do it, the better you get.



ralphmcpherson said:


> You are right though, if someone fights everyday for a year they will improve rapidly. If they spent 6 months getting perfect technique and then sparred every day for the next 6 months I think they would improve quicker. Martial arts is not about a quick fix, it is a long journey, and to become really good you need very solid foundations so you can continue to build.



The problem is that we're all getting older every day.  I turn 30 this month.  Is that old?  No.  But it's a bit old if my aspiration is to compete in the Olympics in TKD or become a pro MMA fighter.  I'm right on the cusp where I could possibly still accomplish something significant in either sport, but time is running out.


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## jks9199 (Dec 14, 2011)

SPX said:


> Personally, I think that if you have someone who has no fighting experience at all and force him to fight every day for a year, then he will naturally learn to get better.  Each day will be a lesson and he'll slowly figure out what works and what doesn't, and at the end of 365 days, he'll probably be a pretty dangerous guy.  And that's without any formal training.  Add in professional instruction to make adjustments and all the better.
> 
> I do feel like a brief period of instruction on technique should come first, but aren't we overplaying it if we pretend like it's really THAT hard to learn the mechanics of throwing a punch?  Or a kick?  It's easy to get good at beating up the air or a punching bag.  What's difficult is learning how to beat up a resisting person and the ONLY way to gain those skills is sparring.
> 
> Let me ask you this. . .  What do you with a guy who has transferred from another style?  He's already a trained martial artist but in TKD terms he's a white belt.  Does he really need months or years of training before he gets to spar?



The challenge isn't learning the mechanics.  The challenge is having them ingrained reasonably well to use them under pressure.  Like I said -- students work with each other or with me in a variety of drills and exercise to develop those mechanics and skills before they do free sparring or similar exercises.  I could toss 'em into a sparring match on the first night, and let them just keep going with a few comments and tweaks, and in a few months, I'll have someone who'll fight hard.  If they stick around and don't get fed up with being a punching bag.  Or aren't hurt.  Or I can take several weeks or a couple of months and give them a decent chance of actually doing something that resembles what they've been taught and feeling pretty good about how it comes out.  (The exact time would depend on how often the class meets; train 5 or 6 times a week, and it might only be a month.  Only come to class once a week... and it'll take longer.)  

If a student comes in from another style, it all depends.  I work with what they've got, and how they can integrate what I teach.  They may start sparring quickly... or they may not.  Honestly -- the same applies if someone came from a different instructor in my own style.


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## Ironcrane (Dec 14, 2011)

Fair warning to all. This is going to be a long post about my personal experience in Tae Kwon Do. It might explain why some snub the art, and call it ineffective.

My Goju-Ryu school fell apart, and I was left with the task of trying to find another one so I could continue my training. I never found another one. What I found instead were a massive amount of Tae Kwon Do schools. Tae Kwon Do outnumbered everything else 3-1. I shared this problem with a friend of mine. She was a neighbor hood counselor or something to that effect. I don't know what exactly her job title was but a large part of her task was working with the youth of the neighbor hood. She offered to help me find what I was looking for, and since she had a much greater ability to search around the area then me, I accepted. 

However there is one crucial flaw on the topic of martial arts, and people who don't know anything about it. And that is they can't tell one from another. So when she came back to me with what she found, it wasn't Goju-Ryu, it was Tae Kwon Do. I suppose I should have expected that. By then I thought, hell I'll give it a try. I show up to observe a class, and talk to the instructor. The instructor was friendly, but his class was very underwhelming. I went on ahead, and joined up anyway. I starting training with this school the following week, and I have to say it didn't do anything to change my initial impression. The warm ups were very light cardio. Didn't even raise my pulse in the slightest. Then we went on to drills, which felt very static compared to how I did them before. There was just no energy, no trying to imagine striking an opponent, no anything. Just running through the motions with no real purpose behind any of the moves. The techniques were very similar to Goju-Ryu but had an extra element of complexity. But there was no reason behind the extra movement, and they just came off as clunky, and useless to me in comparison.

There was sparing, but we weren't allowed to ever make contact. We had to stay at least three feet away from each other. And almost every other move the other students would make was a jump kick of some sort. It was very hard to get an assessment of skill this way, but the other students were always very slow. No techniques were ever executed with any power, and the jumping kicks could be seen coming miles away. And I also highly doubted they had any sense of distance. Due to my previous experience I started off in this school as a yellow belt. And as a yellow belt, I could have walked right through every brown belt in the class. (none of the students were black belts yet).

At this time, I am also still training in Kung Fu. And one of the big parts of that was understanding the meaning behind all the movements, and techniques. So after Tae Kwon Do practice I would spend time alone trying to find some way to make all the extra movements in Tae Kwon Do useful. I came up with a few ideas, and I shared them with the instructor after class. I don't remember what I came up with, but somehow I was able to use the blocks as counters against being grabbed hold of. I demonstrated one of them using the middle block. His response was that the technique was only a middle block, and that's all that it was used for.

By now my opinion of Tae Kwon Do was starting to slide down like an avalanche. But still I decided to press on. The plan being to learn the material, and do the extra work on my own. Then my school started preparing for a local Tae Kwon Do tournament. During this time, one of my lungs collapsed (Unrelated to any training) and I had to go in for surgery. Fortunately I was able to make it out in time to go to the tournament. I wasn't able to compete, but I wanted to be there to support my peers. And this was when my opinion finally hit the bottom. Aside from a couple of the naturally athletic types, every single person there was weak, slow, and had no sense of timing. Their stances had no strength. Their kicks were slow, and had no power. Almost no one could throw a punch. It was all about scoring with the jumping kicks, which were also slow, and stiff. Needless to say, this was not what I was expecting from an art that was known for great kicks.

I was able to handle that within my own school. They were only a small group of people. But after watching over a hundred who couldn't do any better, I decided I was done. I didn't go back to that school, and for a long time I though Tae Kwon Do was just a joke. The phrase I created based on what I saw at that tournament was 'paper martial artist'. Because you could cut down a dozen of them like paper. I met several other people who trained in Tae Kwon Do, and after branching out into other arts, they came to believe pretty much the same thing I did.


 In general this is why I think some people have a low opinion of Tae Kwon Do. Sure this is a problem in many other styles, but the 3-1 ratio of  Tae Kwon Do over everything else made the paper martial artists in that art stand out much more.

But to be fair the day came when my beliefs would be corrected. A bunch of my Kung Fu buddies, and I were going to a friends house to spar. This friend happened to be a Tae Kwon Do guy. Upon learning that I thought he was just another wayward soul, and dismissed him completely,  believing that I could just intercept all of his willy-nilly jumping kicks, and move in with a flurry of hand strikes unchallenged since he wouldn't be able to use his hands to defend himself. In retrospect I should have realized that this would be different since he had a very solid stance. But I didn't, and when I moved in on the attack, I was stopped cold by a perfect front kick that had plenty of power. Futher more he was quite able to use his hands, and completely shut down the flurry I tried to launch when I was able to get in close. My world was blown apart, and I honestly didn't know what to do against this person.


 No only did he beat me, but he ended up being the best out of all of us. Over time I saw examples here, and there of just how great Tae Kwon Do could be, changing my opinions around completely.


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

^^^  Thanks for sharing that and I feel your pain.

I think you've painted the picture for TKD as a whole.  Frankly I would say that this applies to all TMAs.  But it is the experience of encountering school after school . . . practitioner after practitioner . . . who are underwhelming and inadequate.  And those who run counter to this are not the rule . . . but rather are the exception to the rule.

TKD is great, but finding that serious school/instructor who is interested in making students great is like finding a diamond in the rough.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> ^^^ Thanks for sharing that and I feel your pain.
> 
> I think you've painted the picture for TKD as a whole. Frankly I would say that this applies to all TMAs. But it is the experience of encountering school after school . . . practitioner after practitioner . . . who are underwhelming and inadequate. And those who run counter to this are not the rule . . . but rather are the exception to the rule.
> TKD is great, but finding that serious school/instructor who is interested in making students great is like finding a diamond in the rough.



So, basically you are saying that we are all rubbish. :uhohh:


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> So, basically you are saying that we are all rubbish. :uhohh:



I'm agreeing with Ironcrane that the signal-to-noise ratio is not great.  Frankly, I would think that any honest TKDist would have to agree.  It's the refusal to acknowledge this amongst otherwise well-meaning and skilled practitioners of the art that holds back necessary reform.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Not sure what you mean, the majority of proper MMA fans aren't so impressed with UFC here, it's mostly the armchair fans that go, sorry Andy! UFC is far too expensive, the average ticket price for shows here is £20-30 whereas the UFC is probably triple that.



I take no offence at that, it describes me perfectly 

The last time I saw mainstream MMA was a good number of years ago (5-6? I guess) and it was rubbish compared to UFC.  Very one-dimensional fighters with no cardio.  That's the reason I've stuck with the UFC (and WEC, Strikeforce, etc) you generally get two higher quality opponents going at it.

That said, I'm waiting for your PM when something decent is coming up on UK telly so I can change my opinion...


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> I'm agreeing with Ironcrane that the signal-to-noise ratio is not great.  Frankly, I would think that any honest TKDist would have to agree.  It's the refusal to acknowledge this amongst otherwise well-meaning and skilled practitioners of the art that holds back necessary reform.


I know I'll get shot for saying this but.....I agree that the majority of tkd schools over there seem to be below par (from what I read here). It also seems (from what I read here) that the majority of schools over there are associated with large organisations. As Ive said before, what is the point of an organisation if they dont bother to monitor whats being taught in their schools? Over here (at least in my area), independent schools make up the large majority of schools, and most (not all) schools teach really good tkd. The below par schools are actually in the minority. Im not pointing the finger at any specific organisation, but it does appear that once something gets mass produced the quality falls away, the same way hamburgers probably tasted great until mcdonalds came around, but theres still those little places around that sell hamburgers the way they should be.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I know I'll get shot for saying this but.....I agree that the majority of tkd schools over there seem to be below par (from what I read here). It also seems (from what I read here) that the majority of schools over there are associated with large organisations. As Ive said before, what is the point of an organisation if they dont bother to monitor whats being taught in their schools? Over here (at least in my area), independent schools make up the large majority of schools, and most (not all) schools teach really good tkd. The below par schools are actually in the minority. Im not pointing the finger at any specific organisation, but it does appear that once something gets mass produced the quality falls away, the same way hamburgers probably tasted great until mcdonalds came around, but theres still those little places around that sell hamburgers the way they should be.


Can I get a .45 Round for saying that its pretty much the same where I am? 
My Conclusion is that this Issue just isnt as prominent here.


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## jedtx88 (Dec 15, 2011)

Pinigseu1 said:


> Hello i'm new here but glad to be. My question is why do some people think taekwondo would not be effective in UFC type fights? I hear it all the time. Taekwondo is dying out because of ufc style fighting. I think its bull but what do you think?



I guess Taekwondo could incorporate more sweaty man hugs...


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I take no offence at that, it describes me perfectly
> 
> The last time I saw mainstream MMA was a good number of years ago (5-6? I guess) and it was rubbish compared to UFC.  Very one-dimensional fighters with no cardio.  That's the reason I've stuck with the UFC (and WEC, Strikeforce, etc) you generally get two higher quality opponents going at it.



The UFC is the absolute gold standard of MMA at this point in time.  You can criticize the organization for any number of things, but at the end of the day there's no question that they have the best fighters in the world and that even large organizations like DREAM, Strikeforce, and Bellator are nothing more than feeder orgs for the UFC.  Before Strikeforce was purchased by Zuffa you could still make an argument that there were some very good fighters--perhaps the best individual fighters in any given weight class--elsewhere, but now that even SF has been swallowed up whoever the UFC champion is in any weight class is basically just the MMA champion.


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I know I'll get shot for saying this but.....I agree that the majority of tkd schools over there seem to be below par (from what I read here). It also seems (from what I read here) that the majority of schools over there are associated with large organisations. As Ive said before, what is the point of an organisation if they dont bother to monitor whats being taught in their schools? Over here (at least in my area), independent schools make up the large majority of schools, and most (not all) schools teach really good tkd. The below par schools are actually in the minority. Im not pointing the finger at any specific organisation, but it does appear that once something gets mass produced the quality falls away, the same way hamburgers probably tasted great until mcdonalds came around, but theres still those little places around that sell hamburgers the way they should be.





Cyriacus said:


> Can I get a .45 Round for saying that its pretty much the same where I am?
> My Conclusion is that this Issue just isnt as prominent here.




Well in that case I guess I should just pack my bags for Australia. . .

Then again the kind of martial arts instruction I'm looking for may be different from what you guys think is the way things should be.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> The UFC is the absolute gold standard of MMA at this point in time.  You can criticize the organization for any number of things, but at the end of the day there's no question that they have the best fighters in the world and that even large organizations like DREAM, Strikeforce, and Bellator are nothing more than feeder orgs for the UFC.  Before Strikeforce was purchased by Zuffa you could still make an argument that there were some very good fighters--perhaps the best individual fighters in any given weight class--elsewhere, but now that even SF has been swallowed up whoever the UFC champion is in any weight class is basically just the MMA champion.


The only other 'Good' MMA Ive seen is, how shall We say, External MMA thats not so more different Systems Fighting, rather than Organisations You get Contracts with. Theres a proper name for it, but I find it tends to flow better than the UFC. Here, anyway. UFC is still right up there. Im just speaking from Opinion.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> Well in that case I guess I should just pack my bags for Australia. . .
> 
> Then again the kind of martial arts instruction I'm looking for may be different from what you guys think is the way things should be.


Hehe 
And whats Your idea?
Also, dont Migrate. Just dont.


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## jks9199 (Dec 15, 2011)

Let's be honest.  Most commercial TKD schools are providing the service and product their customers want.  They don't want a 2 hour workout before the training even starts.  They don't want to practice one technique for an hour in class.  Most aren't even seriously interested in self defense.  Parents want an activity coupled with day care, with some structure.  And so on.  Other TKD programs are geared towards competition, whether Olympic or regional/local.  As a group, TKD schools have a very successful business model, as reflected in their proliferation.  There's nothing wrong with that -- but you have to also realize that, as more places pop up, you get more that are perhaps less oriented on teaching good martial arts.

Most of the people who want a really hard workout and intense fighting training currently are gravitating towards MMA programs.  They're popping up in a lot of places -- and going under almost as fast, it sometimes seems.  (I've seen 3 MMA clubs open their doors and close within a year, and I haven't really looked hard.)  And you're seeing more people show up there because "it's a cool thing to do" with a lesser interest in being beat up and banged up.  After all, they have to go to work tomorrow, and can't really do that if they have to explain black eyes or broken bones.  Maybe their employer isn't going to give them light duty if they blow out a knee...  (A guy I work with was fortunate that our employer was willing to let him do light duty for several months after he did just that...)

As to the quality of different levels of MMA...  Well, duh!  Let's see...  UFC currently has the market share and money, at least in the USA.  They can actually give their top fighters contracts and sponsorship connections that let them make training their job.  Most of the lower tier fighters have to either find their own (often local and limited) sponsorships or work a "day" job and train around work.  They're not going to be the same as the elite levels...  You'll see the same thing if you look at an NFL team and a local semi-pro football team, for much the same reason.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Andy, you I think are making the mistake many make when talking about MMA and the UFC. In the UK fighters are amateurs (using pro rules) fighting because they enjoy it, there's no money in MMA in this country, to compare fighters here who all have day jobs and train MMA the same way you train TKD, probably for the same reasons, with the fighters in the UFC like comparing the hospital radio DJs with the BBC ones. The fighters you see in the UFC are professional athletes. You wouldn't do it in other sports such as football, those who turn out on Sunday morning aren't compared to Liverpool, Man Utd players etc.
 We rarely can have day before weigh ins because the fighters are still at work, many of our shows are on Sundays when venue hire is cheapest so fighters have to go to work Monday morning. Can't see the UFC fighters doing that. We have some small shows which do have 'not so good' fighters on, they enjoy it just as much as the TMA people enjoy their kumite and katas comps they do. No one compares the people from a small 'an hour twice a week' TKD club going to a comp to the top Olympic competitors. For many just like you taking part is the thing not the winning even though it's nice to win. It's a sport that many like doing, you don't compare them to pro athletes.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 15, 2011)

We seem to have got our wires crossed.



Tez3 said:


> Andy, you I think are making the mistake many make when talking about MMA and the UFC. In the UK fighters are amateurs (using pro rules) fighting because they enjoy it, there's no money in MMA in this country, to compare fighters here who all have day jobs and train MMA the same way you train TKD, probably for the same reasons, with the fighters in the UFC like comparing the hospital radio DJs with the BBC ones. The fighters you see in the UFC are professional athletes. You wouldn't do it in other sports such as football, those who turn out on Sunday morning aren't compared to Liverpool, Man Utd players etc.
> We rarely can have day before weigh ins because the fighters are still at work, many of our shows are on Sundays when venue hire is cheapest so fighters have to go to work Monday morning. Can't see the UFC fighters doing that. We have some small shows which do have 'not so good' fighters on, they enjoy it just as much as the TMA people enjoy their kumite and katas comps they do. No one compares the people from a small 'an hour twice a week' TKD club going to a comp to the top Olympic competitors. For many just like you taking part is the thing not the winning even though it's nice to win. It's a sport that many like doing, you don't compare them to pro athletes.



I understand all that.  However, you were talking about armchair fans vs real fans and the UFC being overpriced.  I understood that to mean that the quality was comparable, but non-UFC was "where it was at" and given that UFC is expensive/overpriced you can get almost as good fighters in the lesser well known promotions.

Then from your comment above, it sounds like the UFC being expensive is right because you're viewing a much higher quality of fighters.  I don't watch much sunday morning football (except for my little boy who happens to play on a Sunday morning football), but I'll happily watch premiership/champions league/internationals on telly/in person.  I don't hold it against them (the same as I don't hold it against most UK MMAers), I just have less interest in watching them.

I guess it does make me an armchair fan, but I guess I misunderstood you, thinking the UK organisations were approaching the mainstream class.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> We seem to have got our wires crossed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No, UFC is overpriced full stop. We do have some very good promotions with very good fighters on, some do try for the UFC but can't afford to get across to the States for the auditions. We've only had two auditions here. You, to my mind, were labelling all UK MMA as being inferior to the UFC but so much of UK MMA is amatuer in that the fighters aren't full time. We do however have some amazing fighters for all that. When UFC first came here, a home grown show, Cage Rage had larger crowds, BAMMA, Angrr Management, P&G and Cage Warriors have always had good crowds, you'll find the very good fighters on these shows, as I assume you haven't been to these, the shows you were criticising would have been the small amateur promotions hence my post.


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Hehe
> And whats Your idea?
> Also, dont Migrate. Just dont.



Well, as stated before I DON'T think you should have to wait any more than 3 months max to start sparring.  

Secondly, and let me preface this by saying that I DON'T think this is the only legitimate way for a TKD school to be run and still be effective and train skilled practitioners, but I'd like to see a TKD school that is more like a kickboxing school.  You know, the patterns are still taught and practiced, and the techniques are retained, but the general attitude and approach is one of kickboxing, with a heavy emphasis on sparring, live training, and heavier-than-light contact.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> Well in that case I guess I should just pack my bags for Australia. . .
> 
> Then again the kind of martial arts instruction I'm looking for may be different from what you guys think is the way things should be.


Or Europe, or new zealand or many other places. My brother has been in europe travelling all over the place for the last 3 years and from what I hear there are some great tkd clubs over there also. And yeah, pack your bags and come over here, there are some really good tkd clubs over here also, some big independent orgs that teach tkd the way it should be


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> Well, as stated before I DON'T think you should have to wait any more than 3 months max to start sparring.
> 
> Secondly, and let me preface this by saying that I DON'T think this is the only legitimate way for a TKD school to be run and still be effective and train skilled practitioners, but I'd like to see a TKD school that is more like a kickboxing school.  You know, the patterns are still taught and practiced, and the techniques are retained, but the general attitude and approach is one of kickboxing, with a heavy emphasis on sparring, live training, and heavier-than-light contact.


You just summed up pretty much every tkd club in my area. The only difference is you will have to wait to spar full on. Ths happens in many arts though, a friend of mine with no experience just started training muay thai and has to wait 3 months before padding up and getting in the ring, I did shotokan as a kid and there was no immediate sparring. The thing with tkd which is great is that once you do start sparring the emphasis on sparring is huge. We spar all the time after blue belt. If someone does tkd for 10 years and spars heavily every lesson for all of those 10 years except for only their first 3 months, in the grand scheme of things that 3 months is a drop in the ocean. But other than that, we train exactly as you described, its more like kick boxing but with a larger range of kicks and more self defence techs such as wrist grabs, joint manipulation and hapkido sort of stuff.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You just summed up pretty much every tkd club in my area.



Sounds like the one I pop into every so often and most of the ones I've heard about here.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Sounds like the one I pop into every so often and most of the ones I've heard about here.


Good to hear


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> The UFC is the absolute gold standard of MMA at this point in time. You can criticize the organization for any number of things, but at the end of the day there's no question that they have the best fighters in the world and that even large organizations like DREAM, Strikeforce, and Bellator are nothing more than feeder orgs for the UFC. Before Strikeforce was purchased by Zuffa you could still make an argument that there were some very good fighters--perhaps the best individual fighters in any given weight class--elsewhere, but now that even SF has been swallowed up whoever the UFC champion is in any weight class is basically just the MMA champion.



You can think that of course, many other countries would disagree.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> You know, the patterns are still taught and practiced, and the techniques are retained, but the general attitude and approach is one of kickboxing, with a heavy emphasis on sparring, live training, and heavier-than-light contact.



I don't have a dog in this here race, but this brought a question to mind: what do you see as the purpose of the patterns and techniques, if the fighting approach is essentially kickboxing?  How does it fit together?

thx.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 15, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't have a dog in this here race, but this brought a question to mind: what do you see as the purpose of the patterns and techniques, if the fighting approach is essentially kickboxing?  How does it fit together?
> 
> thx.


And similarly, someone else posted recently something like "When the TKD instructor taught the "fighting stance" I had to wonder what the other stances were for".


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> And similarly, someone else posted recently something like "When the TKD instructor taught the "fighting stance" I had to wonder what the other stances were for".


Where we train back stance is also referred to a s 'fighting stance', sparring will usually start in this stance. Other stances are used in sparring also, but more commonly they can be used in self defence techniques. Try doing a self defence tech with no real stance and they really dont work unless the opponent is 'playing along'. Then do the tech again and drop into a low front stance or horse stance (for instance) and the opponent will drop like a bag of cement. Hard to explain in words, but stances play a huge role in self defence techs.


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You just summed up pretty much every tkd club in my area. The only difference is you will have to wait to spar full on. Ths happens in many arts though, a friend of mine with no experience just started training muay thai and has to wait 3 months before padding up and getting in the ring, I did shotokan as a kid and there was no immediate sparring. The thing with tkd which is great is that once you do start sparring the emphasis on sparring is huge. We spar all the time after blue belt. If someone does tkd for 10 years and spars heavily every lesson for all of those 10 years except for only their first 3 months, in the grand scheme of things that 3 months is a drop in the ocean. But other than that, we train exactly as you described, its more like kick boxing but with a larger range of kicks and more self defence techs such as wrist grabs, joint manipulation and hapkido sort of stuff.



Well y'all need to pack up some of your instructors and ship them over here to start schools or something, because I'm tired of the situation sucking.

Also, I said that 3 months is fine.  But I know one poster mentioned earlier that at many schools sparring is not introduced until almost black belt.  So you get to spar like . . . what? . . . in your third year?  C'mon. . .


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> You can think that of course, many other countries would disagree.



Every serious pro MMA fighter wants to fight in the UFC.  Not only is the pay the best, but the competition is also the best in the world.  It's no coincidence that the champs of a lot of smaller organizations will come to the UFC and end up being mid-level fighters or worse.  It's just on another level.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't have a dog in this here race, but this brought a question to mind: what do you see as the purpose of the patterns and techniques, if the fighting approach is essentially kickboxing? How does it fit together?
> 
> thx.



Very good question, I'd like to read the answer.


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> Every serious pro MMA fighter wants to fight in the UFC. Not only is the pay the best, but the competition is also the best in the world. It's no coincidence that the champs of a lot of smaller organizations will come to the UFC and end up being mid-level fighters or worse. It's just on another level.



No, a lot of very good fighters go to Japan, equally good money and prestige in a country knowledgable and respectful of martial arts. Japanese comps are the Michelin starred places of MMA, the UFC is the McDonalds, makes a lot money, well known and is popular but not the best.


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't have a dog in this here race, but this brought a question to mind: what do you see as the purpose of the patterns and techniques, if the fighting approach is essentially kickboxing?  How does it fit together?
> 
> thx.



I'm using kickboxing as a general term.  Sanshou is a form of kickboxing, but the fighters the style produces don't really look like Muay Thai guys in the ring.  TKD can be the same way, having a kickboxing focus, but producing fighters with a different flavor because the style and techniques are different.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> Well y'all need to pack up some of your instructors and ship them over here to start schools or something, because I'm tired of the situation sucking.
> 
> Also, I said that 3 months is fine.  But I know one poster mentioned earlier that at many schools sparring is not introduced until almost black belt.  So you get to spar like . . . what? . . . in your third year?  C'mon. . .


It cant be all that bad over there surely. There are many tkd school owners here on martial talk who seem to run great schools teaching the 'real stuff'. I would hope it hasnt got so bad there that with a little shopping around you couldnt find a good school. It seems from what I read here that the problem is largely an American one, because posters from other places dont seem to have the same concerns. A friend of my wife's learned tkd in the UK, and he's a very good martial artist and he tells me there are many good tkd schools over there also.


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> No, a lot of very good fighters go to Japan, equally good money and prestige in a country knowledgable and respectful of martial arts. Japanese comps are the Michelin starred places of MMA, the UFC is the McDonalds, makes a lot money, well known and is popular but not the best.



Japanese MMA is dying at a rapid rate.  PRIDE died in '07.  Sengoku is dead.  DREAM is suffering from so much trouble that many fighters are complaining that they haven't been paid for fights that took place a year ago.  (Gary Goodrich and Sakuraba to name just two.)

Look at Shinya Aoki.  He's been dominating the Japanese lightweight scene for years, and as soon as he came to the US, he got brutally destroyed by Gilbert Melendez.  Now he's stuck back in Japan fighting sub-par competition like Rich Clementi and Rob McCullough because all the best guys are in the UFC.

Or take the case of Jorge Santiago.  He was the last Sengoku MW champ.  He got picked up by the UFC after Sengoku folded and he's had two fights so far . . . both losses to guys who aren't even in the title picture.  

The list goes on. . .  Sandro, Omigawa, Takaya, Zaromskis, Hioki, Yamamoto. . .  All guys who were top fighters (most of them title holders) who have struggled BADLY in the US.  

You seem to have a bias against the UFC, which is certainly your right.  But to say that either the best money or the best talent is in Japan (or anywhere else for that matter) is simply not an objective fact.  The UFC pays well, they pay reliably, and they also have far more top ranked fighters in any division than any other organization in the world.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> I'm using kickboxing as a general term.  Sanshou is a form of kickboxing, but the fighters the style produces don't really look like Muay Thai guys in the ring.  TKD can be the same way, having a kickboxing focus, but producing fighters with a different flavor because the style and techniques are different.


I think it really comes down to the ruleset in sparring. Change the rules to allow head punches and leg kicks and use tkd and the problem is solved. Most tkdists I know who are 'effective' train at schools where they mix up the ruleset a bit. You dont necessarilly need a 'kickboxing focus'. Where I train there is no points sparring and the only objective is to knock your opponent down as quickly as possible, we still do tkd but dont spar under the WTF ruleset and you'd be amazed the difference that makes. Ive said for ages, the only problem with a lot of tkd schools is the ruleset they spar under. Nothing else has to change, its a great art with powerful kicks, punches and great footwork and reflexes and if you dont confine it to such a strict ruleset you have a really good fighting system.


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> It cant be all that bad over there surely. There are many tkd school owners here on martial talk who seem to run great schools teaching the 'real stuff'. I would hope it hasnt got so bad there that with a little shopping around you couldnt find a good school. It seems from what I read here that the problem is largely an American one, because posters from other places dont seem to have the same concerns. A friend of my wife's learned tkd in the UK, and he's a very good martial artist and he tells me there are many good tkd schools over there also.



There are good schools no doubt.  I just don't think there are a lot of good ITF schools in Utah.  I've talked to a few instructors and explained to them what I'm looking for and they have said that they know of instructors who run schools like that, but that I would need to look out of state.  

There's a WTF school here that might be incredible for all I know, but I'm not overly interested in WTF-style sparring.  And there are schools of other styles that are supposed to be good:  a Wado-Ryu school, a Kenpo 5.0 school, a Kyokushin school. . .  The Kyokushin school would probably be the way to go, but I don't like the no-face-punch rule and it's also over an hour away and I don't have a car.

Personally, I like the ITF competition rules because it's not stop point sparring, you can punch to the face, and it's enough contact to be worthwhile but not so much that a hospital trip is likely to be required.


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## SPX (Dec 15, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think it really comes down to the ruleset in sparring. Change the rules to allow head punches and leg kicks and use tkd and the problem is solved. Most tkdists I know who are 'effective' train at schools where they mix up the ruleset a bit. You dont necessarilly need a 'kickboxing focus'. Where I train there is no points sparring and the only objective is to knock your opponent down as quickly as possible, we still do tkd but dont spar under the WTF ruleset and you'd be amazed the difference that makes. Ive said for ages, the only problem with a lot of tkd schools is the ruleset they spar under. Nothing else has to change, its a great art with powerful kicks, punches and great footwork and reflexes and if you dont confine it to such a strict ruleset you have a really good fighting system.



I agree with everything you said.  I just don't think that most schools are that way.  Maybe they are where you are, but not worldwide.  I've heard many people in England, for instance, decry the state of TKD over there just like people do here in the US.  

But yeah, if a school does as you say, and is populated my motivated students, then it's likely to be awesome.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> I'm using kickboxing as a general term.  Sanshou is a form of kickboxing, but the fighters the style produces don't really look like Muay Thai guys in the ring.  TKD can be the same way, having a kickboxing focus, but producing fighters with a different flavor because the style and techniques are different.



I guess I'm wondering tho, what is the role of the patterns?  are they simply a requirement for promotion, a vehicle for demonstration or performance, an artistic endeavor, a vehicle for teaching useful martial techniques skills and concepts, or something else?  It's just in how you had worded that prior comment that made me wonder how they are being used in TKD, from your experience.


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## jks9199 (Dec 15, 2011)

SPX said:


> Every serious pro MMA fighter wants to fight in the UFC.  Not only is the pay the best, but the competition is also the best in the world.  It's no coincidence that the champs of a lot of smaller organizations will come to the UFC and end up being mid-level fighters or worse.  It's just on another level.





Tez3 said:


> No, a lot of very good fighters go to Japan, equally good money and prestige in a country knowledgable and respectful of martial arts. Japanese comps are the Michelin starred places of MMA, the UFC is the McDonalds, makes a lot money, well known and is popular but not the best.



Nice answer, Tez.  The UFC is the big dog, especially in the US.  They have the market share -- but that doesn't mean they have the best fighters.  Dana White runs the show pretty tight from all accounts, and if you don't play his game or he takes a dislike to you, or just may not be the market draw that someone else is, you may have a heck of a time getting fights, no matter how good you are.  (In short, the same old games we've seen in boxing and many other sports-gone-entertainment.)


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## msmitht (Dec 16, 2011)

Interesting topic and posts. I think that most people believe tkd to be the useless crap that they see in stripmalls across the us. There are good schools but you have to look hard. Most good wtf style competitors will not do mma because they are trying to make the national team(s). Mma requires training in boxing, muay thai( to block the leg kicks), wrestling and bjj. The game is too different for a pure tkd competitor to excell without serious cross training. 
Mma guys will always bash us but many can not throw an effective kick at any range.


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## SPX (Dec 16, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I'm wondering tho, what is the role of the patterns?  are they simply a requirement for promotion, a vehicle for demonstration or performance, an artistic endeavor, a vehicle for teaching useful martial techniques skills and concepts, or something else?  It's just in how you had worded that prior comment that made me wonder how they are being used in TKD, from your experience.



The entire question of patterns is a can o' worms, in my opinion.  And honestly, at this point I'm not sure what side of the debate I fall on.

They give you a chance to practice your techniques in a way that is not as mundane as doing the same punch or kick over and over.  And I know there is at least one TKdist who is trying to do something similar with the TKD patterns that Iain Abernethy has done with the Karate patterns.

But on the other hand, I also know of a lot practitioners--instructors even--who want to get rid of them.  They feel that the benefits of doing them don't match the amount of effort it takes to learn and perform them, and that more "realistic" drills would better serve the student.

Again, I'm still figuring out where I stand on this.  But if nothing else, the performing of patterns is a cornerstone of traditional TKD, and they ARE a legitimate way of preserving and practicing techs, so if for those reasons alone I say keep them for now.  It's hard to imagine TKD without patterns.


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## SPX (Dec 16, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Nice answer, Tez.  The UFC is the big dog, especially in the US.  They have the market share -- but that doesn't mean they have the best fighters.  Dana White runs the show pretty tight from all accounts, and if you don't play his game or he takes a dislike to you, or just may not be the market draw that someone else is, you may have a heck of a time getting fights, no matter how good you are.  (In short, the same old games we've seen in boxing and many other sports-gone-entertainment.)



There's some truth to what you've said here.  Obviously there are quality fighters outside of the UFC.  Nate Marquardt actually just signed with BAMMA.  And Paul Daley is a fine striker, even if his grappling abilities are underwhelming.  Bellator has a lot of good guys, too.

But to say that "the best fighters go to Japan" or anything that even remotely insinuates that the UFC does not have 90% of the best mixed martial artists in the world under contract is simply false.  

I write for a major national MMA publication and it's my job to analyze this industry every day.  Furthermore, I am also a moderator of the MMA section of a sports gaming forum and a bettor myself.  I am up to my neck in MMA pretty much all the time.  Now I don't say this to toot my own horn; I say it to demonstrate a love and passion for the sport that transcends organizations or politics and that enables me to love the sport objectively and fairly.  

I love the UFC, but I don't like everything they do.  Some of their business practices are definitely shady.  I decry the downfall of Japanese MMA, I had mixed emotions when Strikeforce was swallowed up by their competitor, I support Bellator, and I enjoy seeing the sport spread across the world.  I'm in favor of many good MMA organizations and the competition that this will engender, but the facts are simply the facts.  The UFC is where it's at right now.  That doesn't mean that you can't PREFER to watch another organization, or PREFER certain fighters who are outside of the UFC, but the worldwide rankings are absolutely cluttered with UFC fighters and there's a reason for that.  They're the best in the world and it's the premiere organization in the world.

It's really no different from how Japan loves baseball and has many good players, but the MLB has the very best.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Interesting topic and posts. I think that most people believe tkd to be the useless crap that they see in stripmalls across the us. There are good schools but you have to look hard. Most good wtf style competitors will not do mma because they are trying to make the national team(s). Mma requires training in boxing, muay thai( to block the leg kicks), wrestling and bjj. The game is too different for a pure tkd competitor to excell without serious cross training.
> *Mma guys will always bash us but many can not throw an effective kick at any range*.




Sigh, why do you do this? such generalistions simply aren't true. I know a great many people from MMA who can throw very effective kicks, I believe I showed you one already. It's not true either that we bash TKD, you do enough of that on your own.
MMA doesn't require training in boxing, MT 'to block the leg kicks' wrestling and BJJ, it's bloody mixed martial arts, that's karate, TKD, WC,Judo, Aikido..yes really... BJJ, and anything else thats martial arts, not so much boxing, here not so much wrestling. 
Look up Mark Weir has the record for fastest KO in UFC, think he still holds it, it was a very nice kick that did it, oh and his core style is TKD.

If you are going to insult us please get your facts right.


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## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2011)

SPX said:


> There's some truth to what you've said here. Obviously there are quality fighters outside of the UFC. Nate Marquardt actually just signed with BAMMA. And Paul Daley is a fine striker, even if his grappling abilities are underwhelming. Bellator has a lot of good guys, too.
> 
> But to say that "the best fighters go to Japan" or anything that even remotely insinuates that the UFC does not have 90% of the best mixed martial artists in the world under contract is simply false.
> 
> ...



What do you know about UK MMA? Paul Daley isn't anything special, never has been and I've seen him from the start when he was a kid. I'm afraid he's known for punching here but not male fighters. He's there because we made it clear he's not wanted here.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 16, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I'm wondering tho, what is the role of the patterns? are they simply a requirement for promotion, a vehicle for demonstration or performance, an artistic endeavor, a vehicle for teaching useful martial techniques skills and concepts, or something else? It's just in how you had worded that prior comment that made me wonder how they are being used in TKD, from your experience.



The role of patterns? 

Deserves it's own thread at least. Perhaps it's own volume would be better?


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## SPX (Dec 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> What do you know about UK MMA? Paul Daley isn't anything special, never has been and I've seen him from the start when he was a kid. I'm afraid he's known for punching here but not male fighters. He's there because we made it clear he's not wanted here.



I have a general knowledge of UK MMA.  It's a fairly large market for the sport, but not one of the major markets (the US, Japan, and Brazil . . . the last because of the number of excellent fighters the country produces . . . not because they have any major organizations).  

Look, man.  No one is saying the UK doesn't have good organizations or good fighters.  If you say BAMMA or whoever is a good organization, I'll agree.  If you say that the UK has many good fighters, I'll say right on.  But the only reason that I can come up with for you not wanting to acknowledge that the UFC has the best fighters in the world is a sense of nationalism or, relatedly, anti-American sentiment.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.  

But so far you've made a lot of statements that you haven't backed up with any sort of evidence.  If you want to say that the best fighters go to Japan instead of to the UFC, then fine.  But tell me who you feel these fighters are, don't just make a general statement.  I've already explained why Japan does NOT have the best fighters, with examples.  

Furthermore, explain to me why it is that fighters in orgs other than the UFC are all wanting to get UFC contracts, but you never see anyone in the UFC clamoring to go to another organization.  There are a lot of solid UK fighters in the UFC.  Bisping, Ross Pearson, John Hathaway, Terry Etim and Dan Hardy to name a few.  All they want in their careers is to win and hold onto their UFC contracts.  You hear fighters in other organizations all the time saying they want to get into the UFC; you never hear the opposite.


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## SPX (Dec 16, 2011)

Back on the topic of traditional martial arts being effective, the problem is that there's way too much of this:


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## Cyriacus (Dec 16, 2011)

SPX said:


> Back on the topic of traditional martial arts being effective, the problem is that there's way too much of this:


Never show Me that again.
Please.
My Head Hurts.


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## SPX (Dec 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Never show Me that again.
> Please.
> My Head Hurts.



LOL.  Yeah, I know, right?


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

SPX said:


> I have a general knowledge of UK MMA. It's a fairly large market for the sport, but not one of the major markets (the US, Japan, and Brazil . . . the last because of the number of excellent fighters the country produces . . . not because they have any major organizations).
> 
> markets? You see countries as markets, we see it as doing a sport we enjoy.
> 
> ...



I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping and you think he's good, lord help you.  You have been over here and heard that all fighters say they want to go to the UFC then? I think you only know what you've read about these fighters, sorry but I know them, I know the MMA scene here and if you want to come over and I will introduce you to it and you can see for yourself, until then I'd probably not post anymore guff up about another countries sport, if I were you.


As for patterns/kata I assume for what you wrote you don't actually know what they are for? You know nothing about Bunkai? As Earl Weiss says we could have hundreds of pages on kata, it's invaluable.

Who do you write for? Is it something we would know? What you are tending to do is to bash TMAs with MMA, the whole tone of the thread from your point of view was simply to point out how useless TKD is from your point of view.


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## Buka (Dec 17, 2011)

MMA does not translate to Tae-kwon-do competition any more than Tae-kwon-do translates to MMA competition. Both have detailed rule sets. I'm not talking about self defense, or who would beat who in a street encounter, I couldn't care less. We're talking fighting sports here, and they are each an animal unto their own.

Anytime I bring someone into an MMA cage for the first time I ask them to lie down against the cage and have someone stronger than them pin them against the cage from the top position. I explain that it's a different game plan from here, with different principles, different breathing and different strategy (depending on time of round and other factors). MMA is a different sport than other Martial competitions. Is it any better? I don't think so, myself, I like all of them. It's just different. 

I am a Karate man at my core. It's what I love best. But if you take a Karate man, MMA guy or wrestler, and put him in a boxing ring to compete in the sport of boxing (without boxing training on his resume) he'll be lost. It's just too specialized a sport. Same thing if you put a boxer into one of our competitions.

One thing someone pointed out to me a few months ago, that I find rather interesting - "MMM fighting allows more Karate techniques than any Karate competition ever would." I had never thought of it that way before. Kind of blew my mind.


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

Buka said:


> MMA does not translate to Tae-kwon-do competition any more than Tae-kwon-do translates to MMA competition. Both have detailed rule sets. I'm not talking about self defense, or who would beat who in a street encounter, I couldn't care less. We're talking fighting sports here, and they are each an animal unto their own.
> 
> Anytime I bring someone into an MMA cage for the first time I ask them to lie down against the cage and have someone stronger than them pin them against the cage from the top position. I explain that it's a different game plan from here, with different principles, different breathing and different strategy (depending on time of round and other factors). MMA is a different sport than other Martial competitions. Is it any better? I don't think so, myself, I like all of them. It's just different.
> 
> ...



It certainly does! Damn good post!
 I think what too many people are doing is thinking of each individual style separately, when they should be thinking of the style as being mixed in with other styles to produce the whole. To think of a style alone is to miss the point of MMA. 


Think of it as making a smoothie in a blender, each ingredient is good on it's own, mix it with others it makes a great smoothie not a great single ingredient.

MMA is about mixing it up, melding styles together, taking *what works for the fighter *out of each style. It's not about MMA v TKD, it's about taking from TKD, if you train in it, what works best for you.


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## SPX (Dec 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping and you think he's good, lord help you.



Bisping is good.  He's not great, but he's very solid, a top 10 MW.  




Tez3 said:


> You have been over here and heard that all fighters say they want to go to the UFC then?



Yeah, obviously what I meant is that I've interviewed every single British fighter in existence.

The bottom line is that any fighter who's interested in reaching the pinnacle of the MMA world--to fight the best competition and make the most money--wants into the UFC.  There may be cases of pros who do NOT want to get into the UFC.  This could happen for a number of reasons--they enjoy being a big fish in a small pond, they enjoy fighting but don't want to it as a full-time career, etc.  But I'm speaking of the guys who want to make it to the top.



Tez3 said:


> . . . until then I'd probably not post anymore guff up about another countries sport, if I were you.



Uh oh.




Tez3 said:


> As for patterns/kata I assume for what you wrote you don't actually know what they are for? You know nothing about Bunkai? As Earl Weiss says we could have hundreds of pages on kata, it's invaluable.



I know all about bunkai, but that doesn't mean that time spent on patterns might not be better spent doing something else.  I think that other striking arts, like muay Thai and other forms of kickboxing that do no patterns, have at least proven that you can be a devastating fighter without ever doing a pattern, but instead funneling that time and energy into other exercises.  There are so many hours in a day, after all.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm still debating personally what I feel the value of patterns is.  If you want to be a true believer and never questioning anything about your art, then that's your right.  



Tez3 said:


> Who do you write for? Is it something we would know?



These guys (I think you have an Ultimate MMA mag in the UK too . . . different magazine):










And occasionally I have also written for Black Belt, such as in this issue, where I wrote an article about a documentarian who makes cool traditional martial arts documentaries shot on location in China and Japan:











Tez3 said:


> What you are tending to do is to bash TMAs with MMA, the whole tone of the thread from your point of view was simply to point out how useless TKD is from your point of view.



I'll admit that it touches a nerve whenever anyone acts like there aren't some issues with TKD because, unless it's going to be trained purely as a sport, there ARE problems.  

But I never said that TKD was useless.  Not once did I say that.  What I've said is that it's a great art--in fact, I said "I love TKD" in at least one post--but it has to be trained properly.  Do you not agree?


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

SPX, you write about MMA, do you fight, train, ref or are otherwise involved in it? You posted yourself that you haven't done martial arts for 20 odd years and then as a child but you are telling us you 'know about Bunkai' but think you can do better things, how do you know that if you don't train? How do you know about MMA other than as an armchair or cageside observer? How do you know what Bisping is like if you don't know how to do MMA yourself? he had his pro debut on our shows, fought twice, pants each time. Not a huge lot of improvement now, we have many better but who aren't full time fighters.

We've told you that TKD is trained properly in many places but you don't seem to want to believe it, I'm not sure how you think it should be done. Very good experienced TKDists have given their opinions but you don't seem happy with them, how can you also write about TKD if you haven't trained other than as a child?

As for British MMA you mention fighters who don't fight now or are on the way to retiring, I think you are probably a few years out of date, I'd be interested to also know what you know about European and Russian MMA.


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## SPX (Dec 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> SPX, you write about MMA, do you fight, train, ref or are otherwise involved in it?



Do you think most journalists in the MMA community are also fighters/trainers/refs etc?  They are not.  They are journalists.  In fact, it's the essence of journalism to be an observer, to document . . . not to be directly involved.  You can learn a lot about the sport that way.  I've learned enough to write about it.



Tez3 said:


> You posted yourself that you haven't done martial arts for 20 odd years and then as a child. . .



Maybe I should amend that to say that I haven't been a regular participant since that time.  I have been intermittently involved.  In 2005 I trained in judo for 6 months before injuring my back (and injury which still lingers today).  In 2009, I very briefly trained in muay Thai, but it wasn't for me.  My heart is still with the TMAs.  In 2010 I joined an ITF TKD school and was involved for 4 months, before walking out in disgust.  I then tried to find another school before eventually giving up on the entire organization in my area.  It was undoubtedly this final experience which makes me so passionate about safeguarding TKD from those who would water it down.  It's a bad feeling when you can't find anywhere suitable to train.

Throughout the years I have continued to train independently to varying degrees.



Tez3 said:


> . . . but you are telling us you 'know about Bunkai' but think you can do better things, how do you know that if you don't train?



You asked me if I knew what kata are for . . . do I "know about Bunkai."  Yes, I know about it.  Again, I'm a journalist.  Research a big part of the job.




Tez3 said:


> How do you know about MMA other than as an armchair or cageside observer?



Again, that's the job.

Do you think Ariel Helwani is a fighter/trainer/ref/judge etc?  No, he's a journalist.  And he won MMA journalist of the year last year at the world MMA awards.

Also, I'll point out that we use sources.  I've talked to many MMA fighters, some on multiple occasions.  Ben Henderson, Brian Stann, Sarah Kaufman, Mark Bocek, Frank Shamrock, Gerald Harris, Kenny Florian, Matt Lindland, Rosi Sexton, Julie Kedzie, Jens Pulver, Rick Hawn, Miesha Tate and Roxanne Modafferi are a few that come to mind.  I've also talked to trainers, like Mark Dellagrotte, and judges, like "Doc" Hamilton.

You learn the sport through their experiences, knowledge, and expertise.  Again, journalism.  That's what it's all about.



Tez3 said:


> How do you know what Bisping is like if you don't know how to do MMA yourself?



I don't have to be a basketball player to know how good LeBron James is or to know how he stacks up against the competition.  I only have to understand the sport.

Also, I should point out that I make a side income wagering on MMA.  I apparently understand it well enough to be successful at that.



Tez3 said:


> he had his pro debut on our shows, fought twice, pants each time. Not a huge lot of improvement now



Bisping has improved greatly just in the years since coming into the UFC, so he HAS to have improved greatly since he was fighting in local shows in the UK.



Tez3 said:


> . . . we have many better but who aren't full time fighters.



You never know how good someone is until you put them against the best.

Good fighters in smaller organizations are called "prospects."  Sometimes they get called up to the major leagues.  When they do, some of them deliver on the promise they showed and prove themselves worthy . . . others fizzle out and fail to live up to the hype.

I'm sure there are at least a handle of fighters who are fighting in the UK's bigger shows who could cut it in the UFC.  There are plenty who could not.  But there's only one way to know.  This is the same in any sport.



Tez3 said:


> We've told you that TKD is trained properly in many places but you don't seem to want to believe it, I'm not sure how you think it should be done. Very good experienced TKDists have given their opinions but you don't seem happy with them, how can you also write about TKD if you haven't trained other than as a child?



I didn't say I didn't believe it.  I just said that there is too much McDojoism going on, regardless of what's happening in the good schools.  So if you have a good school that you have found and that you train at, I envy you.  Congratulations.  Don't take my negative comments to mean that they apply to your school.



Tez3 said:


> As for British MMA you mention fighters who don't fight now or are on the way to retiring, I think you are probably a few years out of date



Every fighter that I mentioned is actively employed by the UFC, actively fighting, actively winning, and should still have several years ahead of them.  



Tez3 said:


> I'd be interested to also know what you know about European and Russian MMA.




Is the UK not Europe?

And okay, you got me, I don't follow Russian MMA much.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

The MMA journalists here are involved in MMA in that they have or still do train, you again are speaking of Americans as if it's only Americans that matter. Rosi Sexton, Pete Irving, Paul McVeigh and Ian Freeman are just four who write on MMA here. John Joe O'Regan who is the digital and online editor of Fighters Only trains.

http://www.fightersonlymag.com/

I think if you are a journalist you should take the wider view of what's happening in the rest of the world, MMA in Russia has been going a very long time, some amazingly tough fighters there. Poland has a huge MMA following in it's own shows, again very tough fighters. Germany has big promotions, UFC didn't do well there when it had a show. The Netherlands of course is the home of amazing kick boxers and has for it's size a lot of good MMA fighters. France now that MMA is legal has it's home fighters fighting at home, very good fighters too. We took a fighter to Italy, good fighters there also. All not clamouring to get into the UFC. The UFC is what it is, it's showbiz, it's brash, big money and threats. It swamps others, eats them up like the corporation it is. It's a for profit, moneymaking machine, not all of us want to be swallowed up by that machine, we don't worship at the altar of the UFC. There's more excellent fighters *not* in it than are. Far from being me being anti American I think you are making the classic mistake of assuming that anything that doesn't happen in America isn't worth anything.

 I'm sure you can make money betting on UFC fighters, it's not going to be hard is it? Actually assessing unknowns, rbinging them on, spotting talent, that's the trick. 

Dan Hardy has four losses in his last four fights.
Ross Pearson has told us he's looking to retire, he's won two from his last four fights.
Daley is fighting on other shows, he gets fines for being overweight and is unreliable.

Terry Etim has only fought in the States once.


----------



## SPX (Dec 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> The MMA journalists here are involved in MMA in that they have or still do train, you again are speaking of Americans as if it's only Americans that matter. Rosi Sexton, Pete Irving, Paul McVeigh and Ian Freeman are just four who write on MMA here. John Joe O'Regan who is the digital and online editor of Fighters Only trains.
> 
> http://www.fightersonlymag.com/



I like Fighters Only.  It's a quality mag.

Also, I'm not saying that NO journalists train.  I'm saying that it's not necessary to be able to write competently about the sport.  Guys like Ariel Helwani and John Morgan are among the best in the business, but that's because of their journalistic training, not MMA training.

With that said, if it's not clear, I'm actively looking for another school right now.  I won't settle for just anything, though.



Tez3 said:


> I think if you are a journalist you should take the wider view of what's happening in the rest of the world



I don't disagree.  The problem is that there are only so many hours in the day and I have other things I do in my life than just pay attention to MMA.  I have another job, for one.  I'm also in school.  But yeah, it's best to have as global of a view as possible.  That's why I do my best to keep up with BAMMA, KSW, M1, DREAM etc as best I can with the time that I have.  

Right now at this moment my time is dedicated to educating myself about the flyweights, a division I admittedly have not paid a lot of attention to thus far, because I have to write a piece introducing the top flyweights to the mag's readers.  




Tez3 said:


> MMA in Russia has been going a very long time, some amazingly tough fighters there. Poland has a huge MMA following in it's own shows, again very tough fighters. Germany has big promotions, UFC didn't do well there when it had a show. The Netherlands of course is the home of amazing kick boxers and has for it's size a lot of good MMA fighters. France now that MMA is legal has it's home fighters fighting at home, very good fighters too. We took a fighter to Italy, good fighters there also. All not clamouring to get into the UFC. The UFC is what it is, it's showbiz, it's brash, big money and threats. It swamps others, eats them up like the corporation it is. It's a for profit, moneymaking machine, not all of us want to be swallowed up by that machine, we don't worship at the altar of the UFC. There's more excellent fighters *not* in it than are. Far from being me being anti American I think you are making the classic mistake of assuming that anything that doesn't happen in America isn't worth anything.



Okay, a few things here. . .

1.  Yes, there are many good fighters from all parts of the globe.  The UFC itself is a testament to this.  It has fighters on its roster from the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan, China, Korea, Germany, Croatia and Brazil, among others.  These fighters had to start somewhere local in order to get where they are today.

2.  Yes, the UFC is about money.  It's a business, as is any MMA organization.

3.  I certainly HOPE there are some excellent fighters outside of the UFC, because as older fighters retire and poorly performing fighters get cut, those slots have to be filled by promising outsiders.  Also, it goes without saying that there are more good fighters outside of the UFC than in it . . . there are less than 100 spots on the roster for any particular weight class, but thousands of MMA fighters throughout the world.  But that doesn't change the fact that the very best are in the organization.  What heavyweights are going to beat Junior Dos Santos?  What LHWs are going to beat Jon Jones?  And so the argument continues down the line with Georges St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, etc. . .

4.  Since you bring up Polish MMA, Lukasz Jurkowski is almost single-handedly responsible for getting me interested in Taekwondo again.  I wouldn't call him a GREAT fighter, but he's good and a good ambassador for TKD in MMA.












Tez3 said:


> I'm sure you can make money betting on UFC fighters, it's not going to be hard is it?



Well it's not as easy as just picking winners.  In order to be profitable over the long run, you also have to be able to be reasonably accurate in determining the percentages by which each fighter will win (or lose).  It's not like every bet is an even money bet.



Tez3 said:


> Dan Hardy has four losses in his last four fights.



I know, it's sad.  Needs better wrestling.



Tez3 said:


> Ross Pearson has told us he's looking to retire, he's won two from his last four fights.



I haven't heard that he's looking to retire, but that's my point about coming to the UFC and facing better competition.  Guys can look beastly in smaller organizations and come to the UFC and be forced to settle for being mid-level competition.

In any case, Pearson's doing fine.  The LW division is incredibly competitive.  This isn't boxing where guys go 20-0.  Losses happen.  He's 4-2 in the organization overall.



Tez3 said:


> Daley is fighting on other shows, he gets fines for being overweight and is unreliable.



Yes, he's a wildcard.  That's why he got cut from the UFC, for sucker punching Josh Koscheck after a fight.  You never know what the guy's gonna do.  But when he's on his A game he's pretty good at knocking fools out.



Tez3 said:


> Terry Etim has only fought in the States once.



But he's fought in the UFC 9 times, including last month, when he beat Edward Faaloloto, winning Submission of the Night, which he's done 4 times in his UFC career. That's great.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

SPX said:


> I like Fighters Only. It's a quality mag.
> 
> Also, I'm not saying that NO journalists train. I'm saying that it's not necessary to be able to write competently about the sport. Guys like Ariel Helwani and John Morgan are among the best in the business, but that's because of their journalistic training, not MMA training.
> 
> ...



Daley doesn't just sucker punch male fighters I'm afraid. He is actively disliked here.

My point is that you seem intent on telling me about people I know, some of whom since they were youngsters starting out, you seem to lecture us on here, about TKD clubs, Bunkai which I'm sorry you may know *of *but don't know, and about MMA and generally acting in a way that makes you look like you think you are superior. You may not realise it but many of your posts come across this way I'm afraid.

Guys from all over have told you about TKD but you won't believe them stating your experience as if it's the defining one. You won't seem to believe eithr than getting to the UFC isn't the be all and end of of many fighters here and in Europe, that they prefer the high quality though to you lesser know promotions. I reiterate...the UFC is McDonalds not Michelin starred, it never will be. best paid fightrs, best publicity, best profits of course, best fighters not necessarily, that's alway open to debate. The UFc is only the fan boys wetdream not every fighters.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

SPX said:


> I like Fighters Only. It's a quality mag.
> 
> Also, I'm not saying that NO journalists train. I'm saying that it's not necessary to be able to write competently about the sport. *Guys like Ariel Helwani and John Morgan are among the best in the business, but that's because of their journalistic training, not MMA training. *Quote
> 
> ...


----------



## SPX (Dec 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> My point is that you seem intent on telling me about people I know, some of whom since they were youngsters starting out



Well for everyone I've mentioned, their present-day skills are on display every time they step into the cage for all the world to see.  And when it comes to assessing a fighter's abilities all that matters is how well they fight inside the cage on fight night.  It doesn't matter how well they do in training, what they like to eat for breakfast, what their favorite movies are . . . it only matters how they perform those two or three times a year when they fight.

And in any case, you've made some questionable statements.  You basically said that Bisping was an okay fighter before he came to the UFC . . . nothing special.  You do realize that when he entered the UFC his professional record was 10-0, that he was the reigning Cage Warriors LHW champ, and that he was a former Cage Rage LHW champ, right?  (The latter of which he was never beaten for . . . he defended it and then vacated the title to move on to other pastures.)  In fact, he didn't lose a single time in his professional career until he dropped a split decision to Rashad Evans in his 15th fight.

So when you make statements about how Bisping was "nothing special" it harms your credibility and leads one to believe that you have some sort of anti-UFC agenda that keeps you from being objective.





Tez3 said:


> you seem to lecture us on here, about TKD clubs



I have expressed an opinion, an opinion that is held by many, many others, even including many TKD instructors.  Maybe I should ask them to register on MartialTalk since I apparently have no right to talk.  

Furthermore, I've said on many occasions that if you have a great school, then awesome.  I'm not talking about your school.  I'm talking about the ones that are NOT great.  And yet, despite that, you continue to bring this up.



Tez3 said:


> Bunkai which I'm sorry you may know *of *but don't know



I made a statement on the usefulness of forms, a statement which is echoed by many.  But again, did you not notice that I said earlier that forms should be kept and that "it's hard to imagine TKD without patterns"?  

Again, you seem to have an agenda, one that forces you to be unfair and not actually listen to anything I've said.  



Tez3 said:


> and about MMA and generally acting in a way that makes you look like you think you are superior. You may not realise it but many of your posts come across this way I'm afraid.



I can see that.  

For the record, I don't think I'm superior.  

Also, the only person who has seemed to have any real problem with me is you.  



Tez3 said:


> Guys from all over have told you about TKD but you won't believe them stating your experience as if it's the defining one.



I never said it's the defining one.  I said that the problem of McDojoism is rampant within TKD, and it is.  I would be willing to bet that if polled most of the kinds of posters that you'd find on MartialTalk or MAP would agree.



Tez3 said:


> You won't seem to believe eithr than getting to the UFC isn't the be all and end of of many fighters here and in Europe, that they prefer the high quality though to you lesser know promotions.



I didn't say those promotions aren't high quality.  But there's a reason that former Cage Rage champs like Bisping and Anderson Silva are now in the UFC.

I'll put it this way:  The UFC is the premiere martial arts organization in the world.  You keep using this "McDonalds" analogy, which is fine.  I actually like McDonalds.  Ate lunch there today in fact.

I don't know how much you follow basketball, but Europe has some good basketball leagues and some very good players.  But the NBA is recognized as THE premiere basketball league in the world and those players who wants to play on the biggest stage in the world--the pinnacle of the sport--want a contract with an NBA team.  In MMA terms, the UFC is the NBA.  That's just the way it is and there's no disputing it.  Maybe YOU prefer some other organization, but that doesn't change the OBJECTIVE FACT that within the industry the UFC is regarded as the worldwide leader.


----------



## SPX (Dec 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> MMA journalist Ariel Helwani revealed today he is scheduled to have an amateur MMA bout in January 2012. The 29 year old recently awarded MMA journalist of the year award for the second successive year suprised many when he revealed he has been training for two years.



Okay, well you got me.  You can count me in the "many" that he has surprised.

​


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

Do you know those fighters that Bisping fought in his first ten fights? The very first on P&G, was Steve Matthews, a very inexperienced over weight Army medic who trained with us and was chosen by the promoter who is also our chief instructor. I worked on that show and also the second that Bisping fought, he has had his opponents picked as carefully for him just as Amir Khan has, right until Khan's last fight where he's blaming the ref for being beaten. he fought Epstein twice who has a record of 14-11. John Weir who's record 7 years later is 3-2, Andy Bridges record now again 7 years on is 1-2. Dave Radford record 6 years later 1-3 likewise Miika Mehet 3-4.  His first ten fights are wins but wins that were set up, as for being CW champion, I'm afraid to tell you that is acutally nothing, the man who ran Cage Warriors at the time, before he went to prison, made sure that certain belts went to certain fighters. the fights weren't worked but were hand picked opponents. You forget, I think, that I know a lot about Bisping and his family, he has a very persuasive and ambitious father and a brother who likes axes.

The first good fighter that Bisping met was Evans and he got beaten.  The general opinion in America I'm reliably informed by posters here is that he's rude, dirty and boring.  

I didn't say you were superior, I said I didn't know if you knew but you come across as superior certainly to English readers as I've asked a few people to read, martial arts people and they agree, it;s not about stopping you speaking it's just that you come across to us as very 'loud' if that makes sense. I was going to say very American but think it might be taken the wrong way.


----------



## SPX (Dec 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Do you know those fighters that Bisping fought in his first ten fights? The very first on P&G, was Steve Matthews, a very inexperienced over weight Army medic who trained with us and was chosen by the promoter who is also our chief instructor. I worked on that show and also the second that Bisping fought, he has had his opponents picked as carefully for him just as Amir Khan has, right until Khan's last fight where he's blaming the ref for being beaten. he fought Epstein twice who has a record of 14-11. John Weir who's record 7 years later is 3-2, Andy Bridges record now again 7 years on is 1-2. Dave Radford record 6 years later 1-3 likewise Miika Mehet 3-4.  His first ten fights are wins but wins that were set up, as for being CW champion, I'm afraid to tell you that is acutally nothing, the man who ran Cage Warriors at the time, before he went to prison, made sure that certain belts went to certain fighters. the fights weren't worked but were hand picked opponents. You forget, I think, that I know a lot about Bisping and his family, he has a very persuasive and ambitious father and a brother who likes axes.



You no doubt no more about those guys he fought than I do, as well you should.  I only know that he had held two belts and was undefeated.  

The same has been said of Bisping in the UFC . . . that he hasn't fought a lot of top-notch opponents.  And it's true.  And when he HAS, he's gotten beaten--Rashad, Henderson, Silva.   (In fact, I thought Hamill beat him, too.)  But he's beaten a lot of good, durable guys, like Leben, Kang, Dan Miller, Akiyama and Rivera.

Personally, I gained newfound respect for him after he demolished Jason Miller in his last fight.  Miller almost subbed Jake Shields not too long ago, so I expected Miller would give Bisping more trouble in the grappling department, but aside from one takedown and a little top control Miller could do nothing.  Bisping's wrestling as come a long way.





Tez3 said:


> The general opinion in America I'm reliably informed by posters here is that he's rude, dirty and boring.



That's true.  He's a fighter that fans love to hate.



Tez3 said:


> I didn't say you were superior, I said I didn't know if you knew but you come across as superior



Truthfully, I'm usually not so forceful with my opinions.  But I have a few buttons that, when they get touched, I definitely go on the offensive.  One of those buttons is any time a TMAer acts like everything is great in TKD Land and there are no problems.  

The weird thing is that I usually only have to deal with that sort of thing from non-MMA fans.  You, being an MMA fan and involved with the sport to whatever extent that you are, I would think would understand exactly where I'm coming from.

I have talked to a lot of TKD instructors on forums like this one and MAP and they almost always agree that there's a problem with a large segment of not only the TKD population, but the traditional martial arts population as a whole.  Many of these instructors (one of which is actually in the UK) are slowly trying to change things, by doing open rules sparring, harder contact, the use of Kudo helmets, and other such tactics.  But many of them also say that it's an uphill battle and by making these changes they're losing students and alienating a large percentage of their dues-paying customers.  

Again, if your school is already awesome, then great.  Be happy.  But also be both sympathetic and aware that your experience is not universal.



Tez3 said:


> . . . certainly to English readers as I've asked a few people to read, martial arts people and they agree,



Well like I said, I'm usually not so forceful.

Also, funny enough, I shared the link to this thread with a few acquaintances and they agreed with me that I'm in the right.  But then again, everyone has their own opinions.



Tez3 said:


> it;s not about stopping you speaking



Well thanks, I appreciate that.



Tez3 said:


> it's just that you come across to us as very 'loud' if that makes sense.



Yes, it makes sense.



Tez3 said:


> I was going to say very American but think it might be taken the wrong way.



Well I've heard stories about what goes on in English pubs, so I don't think Americans have a lock on being loud and brash.  And there are many different kinds of Americans.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2011)

I'm not a 'fan' of MMA, I coach, judge, ref, corner and promote as well as train. Not just on our shows either. My TMA is karate and TSD not TKD but I only teach children that, adults it's MMA for various reasons. I'm a huge fan of Iain Abernethy and attend his seminars whenever I can. His understanding of Bunkai is second to none. Read his articles rather than watch the videos to start with, works equally well for TKD. 


I think we may disagree with what 'loud' means lol! To us when Americans are loud, it's when they blow their own trumpet. It's not that you aren't right about some things, it's that you don't believe some when they say they do train a certain way and it shows that you are irritated. I don't think anyone here trains in the way you are suggesting is bad, they wouldn't be the type to post here if they did.


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## SPX (Dec 17, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> My TMA is karate and TSD not TKD but I only teach children that, adults it's MMA for various reasons.



Why is that?



Tez3 said:


> I'm a huge fan of Iain Abernethy and attend his seminars whenever I can. His understanding of Bunkai is second to none. Read his articles rather than watch the videos to start with, works equally well for TKD.



When I said that I "know of Bunkai" I was referring to Abernethy's work.

There's also a guy who has done something similar for the ITF patterns:

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/HaeSul/HaeSul.html




Tez3 said:


> I think we may disagree with what 'loud' means lol! To us when Americans are loud, it's when they blow their own trumpet.



I mostly just pulled out the "I write for an MMA mag" bit because of the question of credibility.  No, I'm not a fighter, but I know the sport/industry through my interactions with the sport, i.e. observations, studying what fighters and trainers have said, speaking directly to fighters, speaking to trainers.  Also, even though it seems brief, you learn a lot even in only 6 months in a judo club, enough to understand the basics of body mechanics, takedowns, and ground work.  

But like I said, really, this is just a hot button issue for me.  I always support MMA fighters who come from either a TKD, Karate or Judo background and want to see such fighters better represented in the sport.  I know that for that to happen though some things will need to change.




Tez3 said:


> It's not that you aren't right about some things, it's that you don't believe some when they say they do train a certain way and it shows that you are irritated.



I haven't doubted anyone who has said, "Oh, at my school we are very serious/do full contact/do face punches" or whatever.  My point is just that a substantial portion of schools are NOT like that.  In fact, this isn't even anything new.  The contact karate vs no-contact karate debate has been going on for decades.



Tez3 said:


> I don't think anyone here trains in the way you are suggesting is bad, they wouldn't be the type to post here if they did.



Probably not, which is why I come here, to interact with like-minded people.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Dec 17, 2011)

Another thing to to keep in mind is that a lot of people start tkd for some fun, fitness, flexibility and to learn a bit of basic self defence. There is a huge market for people like this. Hardcore, full contact, sparring is not for everyone. My mates who do MMA are regularly carrying a lot of injuries, bruises, cuts, black eyes etc and that is not for evryone either. People have day jobs, a good friend of mine teaches at a private school and when his employers found out he does MA, they let him know in no uncertain terms that he had better not start arriving at work looking like he has been in a 'fight', he just cant afford to come to work covered in bruises with the occasional black eye. Whilst I personally like doing 'old school' MA, its not what everyone is looking for. As a matter of fact, Id say most people arent looking for that. Where I used to train they had a questionaire you fill in when you join, one of the questions was "why did you start MA?", Id say less than 1% of people wrote "to learn how to fight". I dont have a problem with schools providing what most people want, and if thats what most people want then it only makes sense that thats what most schools provide.


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## SPX (Dec 17, 2011)

I'll say two things on that. . .

1.  I am with whoever doesn't want to do full-contact, because I don't either.  That's one (of a few) reasons I didn't continue training muay Thai.  I don't want to get beat up all the time, break my nose, get black eyes on the regular, etc.  But I think that there can be a middle ground.  Maybe full contact, but with pads and a kudo helmet.  Or just hand and foot pads, but with 70% contact to the body and 30% contact to the head.  I don't know the magic formula, but I feel like there has to be something for people who aren't prepared to go "all in" but at the same time want something that better prepares a person to give and receive hard blows than what is typically found in a TKD school.

2.  I think this points to a fundamental issue with the way that TKD (and other such martial arts) are viewed.  It's like, if you DO want full contact training and competition, complete with face punches, knees, leg kicks, etc. then you pretty much have to go to an MMA or MT gym.  Why?  Because TKD and Karate schools are largely places where you go to "get a good work out" and compete in a bit of sport.  They're not really viewed as places where you go to "learn to fight."

I don't understand why there can't be both.  You can have the feel good schools . . . and then you can have the hard core schools.  You can go to Jim's TKD if you want to have some easy-going, family-oriented instruction . . . or you can go to Rick's TKD if you want to become a fighter and learn some legitimate self-defense.

Or imagine a TKD school that is specifically interested in training MMA fighters.  Perhaps there's a TKD instructor and a judo or BJJ instructor.  Just like any other MMA gym except TKD is the standup art instead of muay Thai.

I think that would be awesome, but in order for it to happen, it means that there's going to have to be a sizable movement in that direction, with instructors making a conscious effort to re-brand TKD so that it's no longer thought of as a martial art for "women and kids."


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## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2011)

SPX said:


> Why is that?
> 
> Most of the adults in our club are soldiers, MMA suits them both their nature and their jobs. We can pick up with them where they left off when they've come back of exercise/deployment/leave/duties, e have no curriculum so can tailor each training session to who is in. We are based on the largest Garrison in Europe, the camp we are in belongs to the Scots Guards who are very good to us, they sponsor our track suits and have just given us a building for our own use instead of their gym. Last year was a bad one for us, the children I teach nearly all had a father in Afghan and most of our students were there also. I ran a beginner's MMA class, with lads from one regiment, the Queens Royal Lancers ( we had a lot of regts. here) one of them, Steptoe was killed out there when an IED went off under his vehicle, he was only 20. It's in the Remembrance section here. The Brigade came back a year ago, I haven't had the heart to be honest to run that class again, I may when we've sorted out the new building. While they were there and while they were in Canada this year (training for Afghan, they go this coming October again) the guys have been doing wrestling with the Canadians, it's not something that's common here unlike America. The majority of UK fighters are from TMAs, we don't have many that come from the boxing background and probably none from wrestling. In the nearly 12 years I've been involved in MMA TMA is still the way people get into MMA, a few youngsters now are coming straight in and I expect that will be the way many will come in the future.
> 
> ...




The thing about training 'full contact' is that many are mistaken in that they think we train full contact every session, every techniques is put on hard and every person who does MMA is a full time fighter. It couldn't be further from the truth, there's no place for full or hard contact when you are learning/drilling techniques, you put them on until you feel them then tap, no more than that. Ralph made the point about people having to work, all our guys do in the UK and the pro fighters can't afford injuries before a fight, it means no pay! Those who compete in MMA, *fight *full contact, the training isn't! It may well be harder contact than an average martial arts school but it will never be full on, probably only 50-60% contact.


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## RobinTKD (Dec 18, 2011)

Also, another thing to consider, is that it's not just TKD that suffers from McDojo problems, it'e prevalent in all popular TMA's, Shotokan, Judo, Ju-Jiutsu, etc. Where money can be made from the ignorant, it will be. I personally don't like the way the TAGB train, i don't like the look of their patterns, the drills are boring as hell and the classes are like exercises in mundanity* but god do they make some amazing fighters, look at competitions like Clash of the Titans, and the open style CIMAC tournaments, the TAGB always do well. But it's not a school i'd like to train at.


*This is just my opinion of the TAGB, an opinion based on training at 4 different TAGB classes over a period of 2 years.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 18, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> Also, another thing to consider, is that it's not just TKD that suffers from McDojo problems, it'e prevalent in all popular TMA's, Shotokan, Judo, Ju-Jiutsu, etc. Where money can be made from the ignorant, it will be. I personally don't like the way the TAGB train, i don't like the look of their patterns, the drills are boring as hell and the classes are like exercises in mundanity* but god do they make some amazing fighters, look at competitions like Clash of the Titans, and the open style CIMAC tournaments, the TAGB always do well. But it's not a school i'd like to train at.
> 
> 
> *This is just my opinion of the TAGB, an opinion based on training at 4 different TAGB classes over a period of 2 years.


The Problem I feel, is that anyone, even someone with zilch MA experience can start a School for it.
Theres no Legal Justification needed. Its a Business.

As such, You can get underqualified People making their own Groups, and Groups that Train Poorly.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> Also, another thing to consider, is that it's not just TKD that suffers from McDojo problems, it'e prevalent in all popular TMA's, Shotokan, Judo, Ju-Jiutsu, etc. Where money can be made from the ignorant, it will be. I personally don't like the way the TAGB train, i don't like the look of their patterns, the drills are boring as hell and the classes are like exercises in mundanity* but god do they make some amazing fighters, look at competitions like Clash of the Titans, and the open style CIMAC tournaments, the TAGB always do well. But it's not a school i'd like to train at.
> 
> 
> *This is just my opinion of the TAGB, an opinion based on training at 4 different TAGB classes over a period of 2 years.



It's not, at the moment, prevalent in MMA but I can see it coming quite soon. The 'total package' you train and fight with the same coach/promoter who supplies all the kit, you can have 'master' classes in standup, groundwork etc, kids classes the whole thing all watered down for everyone. Perhaps I'll go and start it myself, need money to retire!


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## msmitht (Dec 18, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It's not, at the moment, prevalent in MMA but I can see it coming quite soon. The 'total package' you train and fight with the same coach/promoter who supplies all the kit, you can have 'master' classes in standup, groundwork etc, kids classes the whole thing all watered down for everyone. Perhaps I'll go and start it myself, need money to retire!



It is already happening in california.


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## SPX (Dec 18, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> The thing about training 'full contact' is that many are mistaken in that they think we train full contact every session, every techniques is put on hard and every person who does MMA is a full time fighter. It couldn't be further from the truth, there's no place for full or hard contact when you are learning/drilling techniques, you put them on until you feel them then tap, no more than that. Ralph made the point about people having to work, all our guys do in the UK and the pro fighters can't afford injuries before a fight, it means no pay! Those who compete in MMA, *fight *full contact, the training isn't! It may well be harder contact than an average martial arts school but it will never be full on, probably only 50-60% contact.




Thanks for your story regarding soldiers and MMA.  That's pretty interesting.  

As for full contact, yeah, I gotcha.  Personally, I've never actually wanted to train in an environment where full contact is the norm.  That's one reason I didn't continue on with muay Thai because dudes at the gym I was attending were getting KOd and having their noses busted on the regular just in everyday sparring.  

I feel that in many schools though the norm is, say, 20% contact, but that's too far in the other direction.


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## SPX (Dec 18, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> Also, another thing to consider, is that it's not just TKD that suffers from McDojo problems, it'e prevalent in all popular TMA's, Shotokan, Judo, Ju-Jiutsu, etc.



Oh, I agree.


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## SPX (Dec 18, 2011)

BTW, it's awesome that we've pushed this thing to 10 pages.


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## Ludo (Dec 30, 2011)

First time poster, short time reader. I noticed in this thread that there was a mention that Michael Bisping wasn't the premier fighter out of the UK. Being a fairly avid MMA fan I have to ask just who these world beating british MMA fighters are and why they aren't in BAMMA or at all known to us?

I wouldn't be surprised to hear of quite of few fighters who were talented and "good" that I hadn't heard of before in the UK. But guys who would trump and put to shame the level of talent possessed by Michael Bisping and Paul Daley(despite his troubles making weight and controlling his temper) would quite frankly very much surprise me to hear of. At least thats the way it came off to read.


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## Tez3 (Dec 31, 2011)

Ludo said:


> First time poster, short time reader. I noticed in this thread that there was a mention that Michael Bisping wasn't the premier fighter out of the UK. Being a fairly avid MMA fan I have to ask just who these world beating british MMA fighters are and why they aren't in BAMMA or at all known to us?
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to hear of quite of few fighters who were talented and "good" that I hadn't heard of before in the UK. But guys who would trump and put to shame the level of talent possessed by Michael Bisping and Paul Daley(despite his troubles making weight and controlling his temper) would quite frankly very much surprise me to hear of. At least thats the way it came off to read.




I can reel off a big list of very good fighters, a good few better than Bisping and certainly better than Daley. There is no money in MMA in the UK, fighting and training will not earn you a living, not even cover your costs so good fighters are fighting pro rules but aren't pro fighters, they have day jobs and families to support, MMA here won't support a single guy even. Purses for the top shows are still in three figures not four. BAMMA is mostly a good show but doesn't pay very much, when it does pay, something that has been worrying us for a while now. Cagewarriors are looking for a good year with shows here and in four other countries.

Bisping had luck on his side, his father supported him and the TUF came at just the right time. He had to leave the UK however to make a career, most can't afford to do that. He's not particularly talented, he's a grafter though and has put in a lot of training to get where he is now but I would disgard his 'unbeaten in his first 10 or so fights' though, as I've said his opponents were hand picked to enhance his record. 
Daley well he's Daley, he's good with his fists just pity it's not always against male fighters.

We have 15 UK fighters who are contracted with the UFC btw most are still in their days jobs for all that.

Warburton
Broughton
Bisping
Blackledge
Sass
Taylor
Etim
Scanlon
Hathaway
Pickett
Wilks
Winner
Pearson
Young
Hardy


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## Gorilla (Jan 1, 2012)

The Brits are tough!! Just saw Pearson @ UFC 141.  Good fighter and he seems like a nice kid extremely focused.  He just moved down to 145.  He wants to make a run @ Aldo.  He is ambitious!  He is going to have to improve allot!!!!!


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## SPX (Jan 1, 2012)

Pearson is really solid, but I don't think he has a shot against Aldo (then again, I don't think much of anyone does, though I believe there's a possibility Mendes could take him down and outwrestle him for 5 rounds).  

In my opinion, Pearson fits in nicely around the upper-middle of the pack.  He'll do well against good-but-not-great competition, but will lose to the top guys.  This is exactly what we saw at lightweight.  He beat guys like Dennis Siver, Spencer Fisher and Aaron Riley, but got outstruck by Edson Barboza.  At FW he'll beat guys like Assuncao and Palaszewski, but I could see him having problems with guys like Aldo, Mendes and maybe even someone like Hominick.


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## Tez3 (Jan 1, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> The Brits are tough!! Just saw Pearson @ UFC 141. Good fighter and he seems like a nice kid extremely focused. He just moved down to 145. He wants to make a run @ Aldo. He is ambitious! He is going to have to improve allot!!!!!




LOL at Ross being a nice kid, he's a Mackem brickie. He's a hard man.

He's a black belt in TKD and brown in Judo btw.


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## Ludo (Jan 1, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I can reel off a big list of very good fighters, a good few better than Bisping and certainly better than Daley. There is no money in MMA in the UK, fighting and training will not earn you a living, not even cover your costs so good fighters are fighting pro rules but aren't pro fighters, they have day jobs and families to support, MMA here won't support a single guy even. Purses for the top shows are still in three figures not four. BAMMA is mostly a good show but doesn't pay very much, when it does pay, something that has been worrying us for a while now. Cagewarriors are looking for a good year with shows here and in four other countries.
> 
> Bisping had luck on his side, his father supported him and the TUF came at just the right time. He had to leave the UK however to make a career, most can't afford to do that. He's not particularly talented, he's a grafter though and has put in a lot of training to get where he is now but I would disgard his 'unbeaten in his first 10 or so fights' though, as I've said his opponents were hand picked to enhance his record.
> Daley well he's Daley, he's good with his fists just pity it's not always against male fighters.
> ...



I don't dispute that Bisping started off on fishy footing with those opponents, most of whom have losing records to this day. My question really had more to do with what he's become skill wise. He's borderline top ten in a fairly weak division, but still borderline top ten with a skillset that allows for him to beat other fighters who have him trumped in one or even two areas of the sport through footwork and crisp striking. My real question is if Bisping isn't the best fighter to come out of/still in the UK then who is? You alluded to there being far better fighters than Bisping and Daley(who despite the domestic stuff and weight issues would still be a top ten-ish fighter if he was still fighting other top ten fighters), but I can't for the life of me think of anyone to come out of the uk or who is still in the uk that, by and large, is a better fighter than Bisping or Daley.

Below are the fighters you listed and they're salaries in UFC fights for the year 2011 excluding Michael Bisping and Dan Hardy:

Curt Warburton: collected $12,000 for his win over Maciej Jewtuszko at UFC 127
Rob Broughton: got $12,000 for his two fights in the UFC this year
Tom Blackledge: $4,000 at UFC127
Paul Sass: I couldn't find any of his fight payouts
Paul Taylor: $36,000 against Gabe Ruediger
Terry Etim: $90,000 at UFC138(10k to show, 10k win bonus, 70k submission of the night award)
Mark Scanlon: $68,000 for his fight at UFC122(his most recent fight)
John Hathaway: $26,000 for his fight with Kris McCray at UFN24
Brad Pickett: $76,000 at UFC138 (including $70,000 fight of the night bonus)
James Wilks: $30,000 at UFC115(For some reason I can't find any payouts for UFC120)
Andre Winner: $14,000 at UFC132
Ross Pearson: $40,000 at UFC127, 
Jason Young: $6,000 at UFC131, $6,000 at UFC138
Paul Kelly: $19,000 for his fight with Donald Cerrone

So looking at these I'm having a hard time seeing how these guys are still holding regular jobs to be honest. You can absolutely live on $19,000 a year in america depending on the area. I'm sure the conversion rates apply and whatnot but if these guys aren't full time fighters then they aren't paying huge amounts of money for full time training camps. There's no reason these guys can't train and fight full time making the kind of money they are making aside from maybe Jason Young, Tom Blackledge, Rob Broughten, and Curt Warburton who, incidentally, aren't very good to begin with. 

Going back to my original question who are these mystery fighters in the UK alluded to in the earlier portions of this thread? If they are around why haven't we heard about them yet? I have heard that when the UFC does shows in the UK that the venue often picks most of the undercard with local fighters. So why aren't they picking the best fighters if indeed they aren't already?


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 1, 2012)

Ludo said:


> I don't dispute that Bisping started off on fishy footing with those opponents, most of whom have losing records to this day. My question really had more to do with what he's become skill wise. He's borderline top ten in a fairly weak division, but still borderline top ten with a skillset that allows for him to beat other fighters who have him trumped in one or even two areas of the sport through footwork and crisp striking. My real question is if Bisping isn't the best fighter to come out of/still in the UK then who is? You alluded to there being far better fighters than Bisping and Daley(who despite the domestic stuff and weight issues would still be a top ten-ish fighter if he was still fighting other top ten fighters), but I can't for the life of me think of anyone to come out of the uk or who is still in the uk that, by and large, is a better fighter than Bisping or Daley.
> 
> Below are the fighters you listed and they're salaries in UFC fights for the year 2011 excluding Michael Bisping and Dan Hardy:
> 
> ...




You may be able to live on $19000 in America but that equates to £12000 here before tax and you can't live on that here. On most of those kinds of earning tax is high. At those rates the tax is 40-50% plus American taxes have to be paid on that. How often are they fighting? Terry has had 9 fights on UFC in four years, his starting pay was low. $90,000 is £58000 of which he will get about half, add the same from the bonuses, and that's about £40,000 if he's lucky for the one fight he's had this year. He has to train in America as well as support himself here. The guys don't live in America, they live here only going over when there's a fight. To train to the standard the UFC requires means training every day for several hours, the amount of times they fight doesn't support that.
Paul Kelly got under £4000 for his fight with Donald Cerrone, take off tax and he would be left with about £2500 after UK tax, depends how much US tax he has to pay. He fought once this year. He can hardly train full time on that. I remember Ian Freeman being paid £10000 for a UFC fight in the States a few years back, by the time he'd paid his flights, his training camp and his keep plus his expenses here as Angie and his children didn't travel to the States. He had nothing left after taxes on top. The publicity and prestige were about all he had to show for it.

I'm not sure what you mean about the mystery fighters, the UFC picks fighters that are suitable for them not necessarily the best fighters in any country, Lesner surely is proof of that, they pick who sells not who is the best.


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## Steve (Jan 1, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You may be able to live on $19000 in America but that equates to £12000 here before tax and you can't live on that here. On most of those kinds of earning tax is high. At those rates the tax is 40-50% plus American taxes have to be paid on that. How often are they fighting? Terry has had 9 fights on UFC in four years, his starting pay was low. $90,000 is £58000 of which he will get about half, add the same from the bonuses, and that's about £40,000 if he's lucky for the one fight he's had this year. He has to train in America as well as support himself here. The guys don't live in America, they live here only going over when there's a fight. To train to the standard the UFC requires means training every day for several hours, the amount of times they fight doesn't support that.
> Paul Kelly got under £4000 for his fight with Donald Cerrone, take off tax and he would be left with about £2500 after UK tax, depends how much US tax he has to pay. He fought once this year. He can hardly train full time on that. I remember Ian Freeman being paid £10000 for a UFC fight in the States a few years back, by the time he'd paid his flights, his training camp and his keep plus his expenses here as Angie and his children didn't travel to the States. He had nothing left after taxes on top. The publicity and prestige were about all he had to show for it.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean about the mystery fighters, the UFC picks fighters that are suitable for them not necessarily the best fighters in any country, Lesner surely is proof of that, they pick who sells not who is the best.



$19k would be pretty difficult to live on here, depending upon where.  Maybe if you had some decent sponsors.

As for he UFC, what business sense does it make for them to not pick the best?  Of course, marketability counts, but they do look for skill.


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## SPX (Jan 1, 2012)

Steve said:


> $19k would be pretty difficult to live on here, depending upon where.  Maybe if you had some decent sponsors.



If you're single with no debt, then it could be done as long as you live modestly.  But I think you hit the nail on the head with sponsorships.  Many fighters make more--sometimes far more--in sponsorship money than they do in show/win money. 



Steve said:


> As for he UFC, what business sense does it make for them to not pick the best?  Of course, marketability counts, but they do look for skill.



The UFC is a business and sometimes they make business decisions.  Lesnar being brought in and the Toney/Couture fight were certainly business decisions (though considering that Lesnar basically jumped into the deep waters with no prior MMA experience, I think he actually did pretty well).  But no-name guys are certainly brought in because of their talent and proven ability.


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## Ludo (Jan 1, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You may be able to live on $19000 in America but that equates to £12000 here before tax and you can't live on that here. On most of those kinds of earning tax is high. At those rates the tax is 40-50% plus American taxes have to be paid on that. How often are they fighting? Terry has had 9 fights on UFC in four years, his starting pay was low. $90,000 is £58000 of which he will get about half, add the same from the bonuses, and that's about £40,000 if he's lucky for the one fight he's had this year. He has to train in America as well as support himself here. The guys don't live in America, they live here only going over when there's a fight. To train to the standard the UFC requires means training every day for several hours, the amount of times they fight doesn't support that.
> 
> Paul Kelly got under £4000 for his fight with Donald Cerrone, take off tax and he would be left with about £2500 after UK tax, depends how much US tax he has to pay. He fought once this year. He can hardly train full time on that. I remember Ian Freeman being paid £10000 for a UFC fight in the States a few years back, by the time he'd paid his flights, his training camp and his keep plus his expenses here as Angie and his children didn't travel to the States. He had nothing left after taxes on top. The publicity and prestige were about all he had to show for it.



Fighter Salary isn't the only source of income for these guys in this game. Sponsors often help pay for training and other finances to allow for a fighter to train more often.


Warburton : Body Active
Broughton: I couldn't find anything for Broughton having any sponsors
Blackledge: JST Nutrition
Sass: MMA Fightwear and Hayabusa, Fight! Magazine
Taylor: iStatus, Blowout Cards, Fight! Magazine, Hayabusa, TRX
Etim: Hayabusa, MMA Warehouse, TCB, Venum
Scanlon: I couldn't find anything
Hathaway: Blowout Cards, Hayabusa, Tapout
Pickett: Champion Nutrition, Jaco, MMA Overload, Tri Coasta, 
Wilks: Hayabusa, Sprawl, Throwdown, 
Winner: Tokyo Five
Pearson: Fight Shop, Tokyo Five, Hayabusa, Sprawl
Young: I couldn't find anything
Hardy: Headrush, MMA Authentics, Tapout, The Gun Store, Xyience
Kelly: MMA Authentics




Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure what you mean about the mystery fighters, the UFC picks fighters that are suitable for them not necessarily the best fighters in any country, Lesner surely is proof of that, they pick who sells not who is the best.



This is what I'm referring to:



Tez3 said:


> What do you know about UK MMA? Paul Daley isn't anything special, never has been and I've seen him from the start when he was a kid. I'm afraid he's known for punching here but not male fighters. He's there because we made it clear he's not wanted here.


From post #111 on this thread



Tez3 said:


> I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping and you think he's good, lord help you.


From post #117 on this thread

So, again, who are these mystery fighters who would put what Bisping has become in terms of skill to shame that are so far unknown, and unnamed? Furthermore, if they were truly cream of the crop why weren't they included on any of the UFC's forays into the UK when the venue chooses the undercard from local talent as a means to help boost attendance and whatnot?


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## Gorilla (Jan 1, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> LOL at Ross being a nice kid, he's a Mackem brickie. He's a hard man.
> 
> He's a black belt in TKD and brown in Judo btw.



He is a hard man in the ring.  He seemed like a nice kid (compliment) out of it.  Pretty humble dude.  I did not know he was TKD.


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## Tez3 (Jan 1, 2012)

All promotions UFC included will put on their cards fighters they know people will pay to see, we all do it. If we put a show on in Newcastle we will put local fighters on because they will sell tickets, there will be better fighters from other places but they won't sell tickets and that's the name of the game, selling tickets, no tickets mean a lot of debt. The UFC does this, when it comes here, it isn't the most popular show in the UK, it is hugely expensive to buy a ticket, picices are on average about a hundred pounds or more when tickets for other shows are a quarter of that. Plus there's travel and hotels to pay for, London is over six hours travel from me, more if you live in Scotland and even more from Northern Ireland. Remember how much our fuel costs ($2.16 per litre, 2.2 pints per litre, 8 pints to a gallon), it can easily cost you hundreds of pounds to watch UFC live. the only fighters that will be on the undercard on a UFC here are the local ones who as has already been pointed out aren't that good but because they are from the city the UFC has a show on people will come. Here no Londoner is going to travel to Manchester to watch Mancunians fight and vice versa and neither of these will travel to Liverpool or Newcastle ( look up the football culture and you will see how fierce the rivalry is) so the undercard isn't on the whole the most talented fighters it's the profitable ones. Of course if they are lucky they will get talent as well.

Sponsorship isn't worth a lot here, you're mostly given kit/supplements etc, MMA is such a low key sport here few know who the fighters are outside the MMA world so they won't get well known sponsors. No television or media work or ads.

There must be only literally a handful of Americans who actually think Bisping has any talent. Google Bisping and you will find pages of hate Bisping sites.
Warning foul langauge
http://www.talk-sports.net/mma/sucks.aspx/Michael_Bisping

Anyway, you wanted UK fighters.
http://mmaukkingston.wordpress.com/...heavyweight-prospect-nick-headhunter-chapman/


http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/5/10-Europeans-to-Watch-in-2011-29445

Another TKDist http://mmaukkingston.wordpress.com/...potlight-the-uks-new-breakout-star-cory-tait/

http://www.mmabay.co.uk/2011/07/29/...oli-thompson-joins-the-wolfslair-mma-academy/


Just a couple to be going on with, it's gone midnight here and I'm off to bed.

Ross Pearson is a hard lad outside the cage too but he's a good un too.


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## Ludo (Jan 1, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> All promotions UFC included will put on their cards fighters they know people will pay to see, we all do it. If we put a show on in Newcastle we will put local fighters on because they will sell tickets, there will be better fighters from other places but they won't sell tickets and that's the name of the game, selling tickets, no tickets mean a lot of debt. The UFC does this, when it comes here, it isn't the most popular show in the UK, it is hugely expensive to buy a ticket, picices are on average about a hundred pounds or more when tickets for other shows are a quarter of that. Plus there's travel and hotels to pay for, London is over six hours travel from me, more if you live in Scotland and even more from Northern Ireland. Remember how much our fuel costs ($2.16 per litre, 2.2 pints per litre, 8 pints to a gallon), it can easily cost you hundreds of pounds to watch UFC live. the only fighters that will be on the undercard on a UFC here are the local ones who as has already been pointed out aren't that good but because they are from the city the UFC has a show on people will come. Here no Londoner is going to travel to Manchester to watch Mancunians fight and vice versa and neither of these will travel to Liverpool or Newcastle ( look up the football culture and you will see how fierce the rivalry is) so the undercard isn't on the whole the most talented fighters it's the profitable ones. Of course if they are lucky they will get talent as well.



In the last four years the UFC has gone to: Birmingham twice, London three times, Manchester twice, Dublin once, and Tyne and Wear once. So 9 trips in 4 years it's safe to say the UFC comes to the UK about twice a year give or take. How is it we didn't see or hear about the best talent? Ultimately it is talent/winning that is what sells since your not going to have people buying tickets to see 4-12 fighters despite whatever attitude/personality they might have. 



Tez3 said:


> There must be only literally a handful of Americans who actually think Bisping has any talent. Google Bisping and you will find pages of hate Bisping sites.
> Warning foul langauge
> http://www.talk-sports.net/mma/sucks.aspx/Michael_Bisping



The way you posted prior in this thread I was under the impression that better fighters than Michael Bisping existed all over the place but those of us who don't live in the UK just didn't know them. Nobody ever said Michael was well liked for his attitude, his fighting style, or as a human being. But the fact is when he fights a Dan Miller, a Yoshihiro Akiyama, a Chris Leben, even a Demian Maia he's going to be favored to win because of his skill set.



Tez3 said:


> Anyway, you wanted UK fighters.
> http://mmaukkingston.wordpress.com/...heavyweight-prospect-nick-headhunter-chapman/
> 
> http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/5/10-Europeans-to-Watch-in-2011-29445
> ...



I'm seeing prospects. You posted about guys who were close to retiring and had already had lengthy runs in the sport that would make Bisping look bad. I would like to see some information on those fighters, or at least their names so I can do my own research if necessary. 

I'm noticing a bit of a trend here in this thread in that you are quick to state your side and throw a yellow card at anyone you think doesn't know something, but I have asked you three different times now just who these phantom uk fighters who are products of the UK MMA scene that are better than Michael Bisping. You have yet to show me anything aside from money issues, taxes, michael bisping hateblogs, and prospects. 

I like to think it would be fair to just walk away from this since your not bringing anything to the table that supports what you were saying earlier in the thread. I certainly hope this has all been lost in translation, though, and that you can really provide something more substantial.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2012)

Ludo said:


> In the last four years the UFC has gone to: Birmingham twice, London three times, Manchester twice, Dublin once, and Tyne and Wear once. So 9 trips in 4 years it's safe to say the UFC comes to the UK about twice a year give or take. How is it we didn't see or hear about the best talent? Ultimately it is talent/winning that is what sells since your not going to have people buying tickets to see 4-12 fighters despite whatever attitude/personality they might have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yellow card? nonsense, don't you know how to have a lively discussion? show you what? I have just posted up some promising fighters, are they close to retiring? I think not. I think you have confused something along the way. 

so tell me what's your knowledge of UK MMA?


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## Ludo (Jan 2, 2012)

Now your trying to be obtuse. I quoted the posts and portions therein that I was referring to. You know, the one where you specifically wrote *"I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping and you think he's good, lord help you."*

*Obviously I didn't make that clear enough with it's own specific quote bubble before, my bad. I took the liberty of making it impossible to miss this time around. So for the very last time could you perhaps provide some kind of information as to whom the above mentioned fighters are close to retiring and so clearly better than he is(he being Michael Bisping)? That's all I've wanted to know since I entered this thread and it's taken now a total of five posts, every single one of which has included a request for the identities of those fighters. So far the only names I've gotten out of you are ones already in the UFC, and prospects. Neither of which fits the above criteria.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2012)

Ah I see what you've done. That sentence refers to two sets of people. *'we have so many more fighters than that now (this is the current fighters) they've  (meaning the list of fighters listed by the poster I was answering) been going a while now and are close to retiring'. *There was a list put of of UK fighters, not by me, who I said are close to retiring and that we have many more fighters now. The poster I was answering understood because he said he thought that they weren't close to retiring. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my sentence, it was not done deliberately.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2012)

By the way Dublin isn't in the UK, it's in a totally different country Eire.

Perhaps though you could check what I write in context before shouting at me?


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2012)

Question from SFX "Furthermore, explain to me why it is that fighters in orgs other than the UFC are all wanting to get UFC contracts, but you never see anyone in the UFC clamoring to go to another organization. There are a lot of solid UK fighters in the UFC.* Bisping, Ross Pearson, John Hathaway, Terry Etim and Dan Hardy *to name a few. All they want in their careers is to win and hold onto their UFC contracts. You hear fighters in other organizations all the time saying they want to get into the UFC; you never hear the opposite."

Answer from me..."I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping ........"

Answer from SFX showing he understood what I was talking about   " Every fighter that I mentioned is actively employed by the UFC, actively fighting, actively winning, and should still have several years ahead of them."



We disagreed about the fighters but this was the conversation we were having. You took it out of context and read it as something else.


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## Kframe (Jan 14, 2012)

My lingering question to the teakwondons here is, why dosent tkd use some of its kicking techniques and throw them at the lower end of the body? One of the "issues" mma and others have with TKD is the perception they have no low kicks. Tho i have seen on youtube and other places that some of the kicks that are normaly only thrown mid and high can be quite effective as a low kick. Forgive me if i use the wrong terms, but the round kick and the side kick were what were demonstrated for me, both working up high as well down low.(attacking the knee and shins and other movement generating things) Im sure there are other kicks that can do low attacks as well, just why arnt they practiced or focused on? Every time i see a TKD in a mma or even K1 bout they almost never throw low kicks. 

I would imagine that Tkd would do better in mma if it had some measurable way to prevent takedowns, but thats just my opinion.  

Having said that, i dont think sucsess in the cage measures its viability on the street for self defense. I have a friend, who never steped foot in a cage, and has used his tkd many times on the street for real self defense.


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## Earl Weiss (Jan 14, 2012)

Krillan said:


> My lingering question to the teakwondons here is, why dosent tkd use some of its kicking techniques and throw them at the lower end of the body? One of the "issues" mma and others have with TKD is the perception they have no low kicks. Im sure there are other kicks that can do low attacks as well, just why arnt they practiced or focused on? Every time i see a TKD in a mma or even K1 bout they almost never throw low kicks.
> 
> I would imagine that Tkd would do better in mma if it had some measurable way to prevent takedowns, but thats just my opinion.
> 
> .



As you stated TKD has low kicks; you are confusing the art with the sport.   Many kickboxing contests don't have low kicks but some kickboxers make the transition to MMA as do Boxers. Saying TKD would do better if it had some measureable way to prevent the takedown could be said of boxing as well. Or how about saying wrestling would do better if it included striking?


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## SPX (Jan 14, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> As you stated TKD has low kicks; you are confusing the art with the sport.



The problem is that many, many schools train for the sport and ignore most of that which is not applicable.  And performing a movement--whether it's punching to the face, defending face attacks, leg kicks, knees, elbows, etc.--will only come naturally if it's regularly trained.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 14, 2012)

Furthermore, most Dojangs teach counters to grabs. Unfortunately, not all of them go to the length of tackles and takedown defense, but its there, in pretty much all of its varieties. Like Low Kicks. Theyre there, they just need to actually be taught.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 15, 2012)

SPX said:


> The problem is that many, many schools train for the sport and ignore most of that which is not applicable.  And performing a movement--whether it's punching to the face, defending face attacks, leg kicks, knees, elbows, etc.--will only come naturally if it's regularly trained.


True, and thats why its so important to find a good school that suits your needs. The schools you described are great if your goal is being a competitive tkdist who competes in competitions but may not be what you are looking for if thats not your goal. We do a lot of head punching drills and we train low kicks, its all a part of tkd. I thinks its important to find a school who "mix up" sparring a bit also, its not great to always spar the exact same ruleset. We do sparring WTF style, plus punching only (like boxing) some nights, 2 on 1, 3 on 1 , 2 on 2, knock down sparring, light contact, full contact etc etc to constantly keep you out of your comfort zone.


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## puunui (Jan 15, 2012)

Krillan said:


> My lingering question to the teakwondons here is, why dosent tkd use some of its kicking techniques and throw them at the lower end of the body?



What make you believe that taekwondoin don't use some of its kicking techniques and throw them at the lower end of the body? Personally, leg kicking is my speciality. I love kicking the leg.


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