# Will The "Real" Kenpo Please Step Forward



## MJS (Jun 3, 2008)

Many people trained with Mr. Parker.  Some may have trained directly with him longer than others have.  You have many people who teach their version of Kenpo.  You also have many people running around speaking ill of those that do their Kenpo different than the next guy.  So as an example.  You could have a student of one teacher running around saying that unless you trained with instructor A, you don't have Kenpo the way it should be taught.  People will post video clips of someone doing a kata or technique and pretty much bash the hell out of it, because its 'different' from what they do.  

So, in your opinion, is there a 'real' Kenpo?  Is there one method or teacher that is teaching the 'real deal' while everyone else is handing out a watered down version?

Usually I like to say that there are many different branches of the Kenpo tree, so just because something may look a little different, doesnt necessarily mean that its wrong.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?


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## terryl965 (Jun 3, 2008)

Well I hold no rank in Kenpo but have trained with a few people and from my understanding Mr. Parker never limited to one set of standerds. I mean if you needed to change something a little to make it work for you then make the change, of course I could be completely wrong here.

I wonder why so many feel the need to bash any Art let alone the one they study, would Mr. Parker be happy with this and was this his vision no, not at all. I would also reckon that every single person studing the Art wish the spirit of the true meaning behind his vision would grow and grasp each other in a spirit like no others.

:asian:


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## Mark L (Jun 3, 2008)

I don't think there is a one, true, real kempo.  Martial arts are dynamic, change happens.  Hopefully for the good, but not always.  

My history isn't with Parker kempo, so I won't go there.  My core curriculum is SKK with some other kempo influences.  I am protective when I hear about SKK variants that mess with what I've learned.  It's _my_ kempo, and I hold it in high regard.  Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, but it's personal to me. 

Lets say I practice "vanilla kempo", and mess around a lot with the original stuff I learned.  Is it still "vanilla kempo", probably not.  Is it still kempo, probably.  I think a divergence occurs when the core principles as manifested in the techniques are changed to a degree where it isn't significantly representative of "vanilla kempo".  That isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't "vanilla kempo" anymore.   So don't call it that.

As far as bashing goes, it's a competitive world out there and this rampant PC nonsense is encouraging mediocrity.  If I see something being done that is, _in my opinion_, detrimental to the art I practice _I will_ express my opinion.  If you don't like what I've done to "vanilla kempo", who am I to gag you? Criticism is good, it makes us better if we use it constructively instead of whining about it.


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## spacecorp (Jun 3, 2008)

I agree that discussion and criticism is a nedded aspect of development. However, tradition for traditions sake works well in tea ceremony but not warfare. After all, martial arts needs to be dynamic and growing. Each practicioner should keep what works and discard from his/her arsenal what does not work. Learn from all but keep only what has value.

I think the people in this forum are intelligent enough to understand the principles they are learning and hopefully are able to put them to use constructively.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 3, 2008)

My Kempo is from Okinawan version. From my understanding they borrowed from different arts, different countries. Not everyone did the exact same type of Kempo. My Kempo doesn't look very much like EPAK at all. Doesn't mean what he teaches is not Kenpo.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 3, 2008)

MJS said:


> So, in your opinion, is there a 'real' Kenpo?


Yeah, the one each of us practices. :asian:


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## Hand Sword (Jun 4, 2008)

The real Kem/npo changes with time. The real one is a popularity contest, where the teachers/organization etc.. are thought well of. Of course, the politics changes constantly with long friends becoming enemys, once enemys becoming friends....it's ridiculous!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 4, 2008)

I think all of the responses thus far have been remarkably PC, courteous, and inclusive. The distinction remains, however, that Kenpo under Mr. Parker has many faces, some of which are better than others. 

There are lots of folks teaching Parkers American Kenpo. Some "get it", more do not. Parker techniques are just sequences of moves; anybody can do them, and claim to be doing his kenpo. But, his kenpo wasn't the choreography; it was how one moved while they were performing the choreography. Several distinctions seperate "poor" from "average" from "above average " from "really good" from "phenom". Among traits that seperate mediocre Parker kenpo presentations from stellar ones are components of sophistication. I'll list some; the list is not exhaustive. In it, I will list guys I'm not affiliated with, but whom I believe to represent certain ideals of Parker kenpo well.

Multiplicity -- More than one thing going on. While the upper body is following the dance steps of "block, chop, palm heel, uppercut", the lower body is crashing into the bad guys knees, thighs, ankles, interupting his balance, alignment, coordination, preventing him from ever geting his ducks in enough of a row to brace himself to retreat, cover up against the beating, or counter; he's not done until we're done with him, because his options are controlled and delineated by our actions.

Consider foot maneuvers. A front crossover in kenpo is walking the rear foot across the front of the front foot to a twist stance, then stepping forward with the lead leg into a new stance, a bit closer to the bad guys center space. Lower end kenpo schools only use this to close or manage distance. Hallmark of "better", is using this as an attack. The rear foot coming accross the front fo the lead foot also serves as a stomping instep kick to a knee joint, rakes down the shin, and sets to the floor THROUGH the ankle instead of next to it, creating an angle of disturbance that sets the guy stumbling. The movement of the lead leg stepping out of this twist becomes a rising knee kick to the pelvis, followed by a low side snap or thrust to the bad guys knee, witth yet another raking down the shin and firm plant on the foot or through the ankle, disturbing the guys base so he's off balance and unable to coordinate a defense. Mr. Pick is good with this; strikes you with his foot maneuvers and stance changes, using them to attack your base, so that whatever he does with his upper body is just gravy. Getting attacked by a stance change so that you're hurting, with a headache, and in need of crutches is an interesting dimension to kenpo done "better".

This is done WHILE the upper body and arms are doing their gig whacking on the guy, positioning him for further whacks, controlling him through bumps, bunts, and check and spins, and so on. Both of their manuals will read "execute a front crossover foot maneuver while doing the chop/palm/punch combo about the head and neck", but the execution will be more complex and sophisticated with the attacking crossover.

Stike Manipulation / Impact Manipulation -- Something Mr. parker was brilliant at was using the reactions of one strike to set the bad guy up for the next one. Dragging a ripping with a raking hammerfist as you pass through the target has a very different effect on subsequent vulnerabilities and target availabilites via bad guy position than does simply bopping the guy in the face with a hammerfist. Very few PArker lineages use this well. Most bippity-bop the guy, and pride themselves on being able to bip-bop faster than the other kenpo katz, failing to realize that quality kenpo requires learning to rip through targets with enough authority to effect spins of the spine, whipping about actions of the extremities we hit, and so on. Instead, it's like...the guys further from the tree just have a pattern of 5 blows they're gonna rip off as fast as they can, with complete disregard as to how each blow twists, jukes, spins, or yanks the guy around in prep for the follow up. The bip-bop apprach manages to work, because the kenpoist throws more blows than the bad guy can respond to, and gets hit a bunch, eventually going down. But the absolute destructive capacity inherent in applications of strike manipulation and control manipulation get lost...the guy whould be overwhelmed by rapid fire combinations and sporting a fat lip and bloody nose, rather than wrecked by a series of purposeful manipulations and blows that effecively dismantle his skeletal structure and insult his nervous and vascular system to a point of some pretty significant injuries. It's the difference between an eye hook that scrathes the eye, an eye hook that pops out the eye, and an eye hook that embeds in the eye socket, latches onto bony structures witthin the skull, and rips them free from ligamentous sutures like tearing a green tree branch off of a trunk, leaving a large gaping hole of missing bony components of the skull. They all get described the same in the write ups, but one is inherently more destructive than the other, requiring a better understanding of power principles, bracing angles, body dynamics, and functional anatomy. Doc Chapel does a dynamite job with this...making sure the strikes are sticky on the bad guy, so he gets whipped around and positioned for the next blow while trying to discover where he left his feet.

Critical Timing factor -- I owe Mr. Hale for this one. If the tech calls for a kick to the nads, followed by a palm heel after to his bent over head or face, lower end kenpo will kick the guy, wait for him to bend over in response to the pain, then throw a low palm heel to a dude who's stooped and holding his gear in pain. Higher end kenpo...bust him in the nads, and as his face is rocketing forward to achieve the bentover position, we throw that palm heel so that he collides his reactive force into our offensive force, creating a subtle but effective force multiplication effect. But dont stop there...insert slipping the palm heel off the target so you also crack him with the elbow o fthe same arm, all while attacking his stance with your stance, so that the multiplied effect of three hits (palm, elbow, knee to his knee) blows him back like he's been hit center chest by a shotgum blast. Both get written "Kick to the groin, followed by a palm heel to the face or head". But they are not the same, in practice, application, or effect.

Inserts, Passing Through, Not To -- Kenpo has a lot of circles that envelope the bad guys body space, and allow us to navigate our own. We can move our hand from a contact at point A, to then next contact at point B, hitting only at each demarcated point. Inserts would have us slicing, chopping, bumping, spinning, raking, destabilizing with bunts to nerve bundles, etc. If Point A is one stoplight, and B is the next stoplight down the road a quarter mile, I can hit only the cars in the A intersection, then drive like a bat out of hell to hit a car in intersection B. Or, I can make sure that -- on my way from A to B -- I side swipe a lot of other cars as I speed down the strip from one intersection to the other. Larry is great at this; whack you five times instead of 2, and it's all inserts "on the way passing thorugh/past" certain points.

Paired Rhythm -- One of my faves. Kenpo too far from the tree will just randomly whip out a buncha fast strikes. Strikes, as manipulation tools, take time to sink in. The guy has to have time to bend after getting a palm to the liver or spleen, before you can whack him with a downward chop to the back of the neck. Too many newbies trying too hard to race through the combinations, that they are swiping chops to the mastoid when it hasn't even had time to present itself in response ot the other blows.

Mr. Parrker could show Reversing Mace, and only hit you the written number of times, all while leaving you standing in pretty much the same spot you started in. Or...he could hit you...using the exact same movement patterns...about 15 times (instead of three), and using strike manipulation, offensive stancework, paired rhythm, and so on, blast you across the room and hammer you down into a pile, stacked on top of yourself in a mashed up little pile, 15 feet away from where you started. But it was still "Reversing mace".

So, kenpo under Mr. Parker has varying degrees of complexity and efficiency in applying the same material. He taught to the strengths and capacities of the students. To put it unkindly, perhaps, if you were of average intelligence and couldn'y follow the higher/faster/more complex trains of tought he was vibing, he taught you a simpler version of a technique, sans all the cool stuff. If you were bright, on the ball, paying attention and working hard, he'd show you the versions with all of the sophisticated bells and whistles. All still kenpo, but not created equally. Both students go back to their studios in their respective cities and say, "But this is how Mr. Parker taught me, so I know it's the right way". Unh-hunh.

Not all kenpo is created equal. Not everyone is going to be able to incorporate the more complex stuff he enjoyed exploring with those who could keep up. But the ones who didn't have access to that level of instruction will always be invested in saying "it ain't so", because their ego's don't want to admit that they may be investing some bunch of time, money, energy and effort into an inferior interpretation.

The good news is, the good material and good profs are out there, teaching the higher end material. Guys smart enough to look at the simple stuff they signed up at and say, "WAit...I bet there's more" will seek out professors capable of showing them the "more", and bringing sophisticated kenpo to life for them. 

Takes effort, commitment, and hard work. More importantly, it takes a willingness to admit that what one has been learing may not be the schnizzle, and take the corrective steps necessary to hook up with a prof who CAN bring them the better interpretations.

Its all real kenpo; some is just innately better than others. Not because of egos, but because of where Mr. Parker sowed what seeds with whom. It's a spectrum, with many points along the number line.

Regards,

Dave Crouch, DC


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## ackks10 (Jun 4, 2008)

"know what you know, know why it's so" i'll leave it with that:boing2:


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## JTKenpo (Jun 4, 2008)

There are definately aspects to Kenpo which makes it Kenpo no matter what the lineage.  You can find these aspects in all Kenpo / Kempo systems.  hmmmmm someone recently said "we are more alike then we are different" or maybe they did a seminar or something to that effect. Anyway....aspects such as multiple hammer strikes, very kenpo;  one side dominant techniques using sequential flow;  inward blocks to outward chops, very very kenpo.   Find a master key movement in your style of Kenpo and chances are it is in everyone elses.


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## LawDog (Jun 4, 2008)

When the main tacticle principles of Kenpo are applied within any Kenpo/Kempo system then it is real. If they are not, then it isn't.


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## HKphooey (Jun 4, 2008)

If you are still standing, then you may have found "real" kenpo.  And if you are on your back, you may have been studying "fake" kenpo.


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## jks9199 (Jun 4, 2008)

This is really a question that applies to many arts.  In my own style, it was taught differently at different points in its history here in the US.  Early on, it was taught as a direct, hard, demanding, and brutal fighting style, with little "art."  Later, the empasis moved in various directions, as different aspects were introduced.  Today, there is a new emphasis on developing healthy and non-injuring training.  But somewhere along the way, there was always something about it that said "BANDO."  There were certain principles and approaches that carried throughout...

I think the same can be said to be true about Ed Parker's teachings.  Doc Chap'el (forgive me if I've mispelled -- or misunderstood) has said that Mr. Parker taught certain things to some students, other things in the commercial program, and still other things to different students at other times.  I'm sure there were many reasons for this, such as Mr. Parker's mood and interests of the moment while teaching (we all do this, if we're honest; our teaching naturally reflects our own interests of the time we're teaching to some degree), a particular student's abilities or interests, or even his own evolving understanding of what he was teaching.  But... throughout it all, there must have been -- and must still be -- something that says "Ed Parker's Kenpo".  

Because if that set of core elements isn't there -- you don't have that style, be it Ed Parker's Kenpo, Bando, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Shaolin kung fu, or whatever.  If you're making chocolate chip cookies, you can add nuts or shredded coconut or M&Ms and still have chocolate chip cookies... but you can't substitute oatmeal and raisins and leave out the chocolate chips and still have chocolate chip cookies.


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## HKphooey (Jun 4, 2008)

Mr. Miyagi said it best... 

Walk on road.

Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe.

Walk middle, sooner or later,
you get squished just like grape. 

Here, karate same thing.

Either you karate do, yes, or karate do, no.

You karate do, "guess so," just like grape.

Whatever kenpo you choose, go all out, no middle of the road!


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## Twin Fist (Jun 4, 2008)

with just a few exceptions, it all goes back to Mitose. Everything after him is just someone's idea of what kenpo should be.

YES, there is an answer to the question "which Kenpo is best or the most true"

the problem is, the answer will be different for every single person asking the question.

For some people it is EPAK, for some (not enough in my opinion, his stuff should be MUCH more popular) it is Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo, for some (too many in my opinion) they have gone with Villari's stuff, and for many, it is Kaju, or Tracy's


The point is, there is very little "bad" in the Kenpo world, but there is a lot of "different"

find the flavor you like best


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## Errant108 (Jun 4, 2008)

Shorinji Kempo?

Byakuren Kempo?

Tetsurin Kempo?

Nihon Kempo?


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## thetruth (Jun 5, 2008)

There is no real Kenpo/Kempo.  

As for EPAK well I think you are beating a dead horse trying to find out who has the 'real' Kenpo.  Any instructor who was graded relatively highly in the system at the time of his death could very well say they have the real stuff and it is a case of one persons opinion against another's and it is impossible to say who has what(you really just have to believe what you are told).  As long as they are affiliated with one of the major organisations of which there are many then you can be relatively safe you are learning something pretty close to what Ed Parker taught. 

The term Kempo is used by many organisations now days that aren't affiliated with anyone in particular and have no links to Okinawa or Japan.  Some of these organisations are very big and make untrue claims.  It is up to the discerning martial artist to find out some background information on what you wish to learn.   

If you attend a martial arts school and they teach great stuff but are more of a hybrid style with no affiliation yet they use the name Kempo or Kenpo, does this make them any less 'real'?   

If you just wanted to know who has the real Parker Kenpo well you won't get a definitive answer here.  

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## girlbug2 (Jun 6, 2008)

Is there one "real" cheeseburger, or are the cheeseburgers at McDonald's just as real as the cheeseburgers at Islands, In N Out, Carl's Junior, the Four Seasons, etc...?

Just different takes on the same basic concept. Although one is allowed to pick favorites, of course.

(And of course, In N Out is the "Best".)


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## kidswarrior (Jun 6, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Is there one "real" cheeseburger, or are the cheeseburgers at McDonald's just as real as the cheeseburgers at Islands, In N Out, Carl's Junior, the Four Seasons, etc...?
> 
> Just different takes on the same basic concept. Although one is allowed to pick favorites, of course.
> 
> (And of course, In N Out is the "Best".)


Oh, man, this analogy is classic. :asian: 

Of course, I'm gonna steal it, patent it, sell it for millions, then turn around and claim my brand of cheeseburger (kempo) is actually the best. But that's all food for another day.


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## John Bishop (Jun 6, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Is there one "real" cheeseburger, or are the cheeseburgers at McDonald's just as real as the cheeseburgers at Islands, In N Out, Carl's Junior, the Four Seasons, etc...?
> 
> Just different takes on the same basic concept. Although one is allowed to pick favorites, of course.
> 
> (And of course, In N Out is the "Best".)



Yes, but you have to admit that some cheeseburgers are better then others:wink1:


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## Twin Fist (Jun 6, 2008)

oh man, i havnt let myself think about in-and-out for years, now i cant STOp thinking about them.

Thats it, I am sellign all my worldly good, shaving my head and moving to Cali.

prof Bishop, If i show up and offer to be your live in apprentice, can I learn kaju and eat in-and-out?


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## John Bishop (Jun 7, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> oh man, i havnt let myself think about in-and-out for years, now i cant STOp thinking about them.
> 
> Thats it, I am sellign all my worldly good, shaving my head and moving to Cali.
> 
> prof Bishop, If i show up and offer to be your live in apprentice, can I learn kaju and eat in-and-out?



"In and Out" is 2 blocks away.  Got to drive past it to and from the school.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 7, 2008)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!


oh man.....

seriously though, you guys need to tell Sijo that kaju needs to expand in texas


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 7, 2008)

MJS said:


> Many people trained with Mr. Parker. Some may have trained directly with him longer than others have. You have many people who teach their version of Kenpo. You also have many people running around speaking ill of those that do their Kenpo different than the next guy. So as an example. You could have a student of one teacher running around saying that unless you trained with instructor A, you don't have Kenpo the way it should be taught. People will post video clips of someone doing a kata or technique and pretty much bash the hell out of it, because its 'different' from what they do.
> 
> So, in your opinion, is there a 'real' Kenpo? Is there one method or teacher that is teaching the 'real deal' while everyone else is handing out a watered down version?
> 
> ...


In truth, everyone does a watered down version of what everyone else does. We are all masters of exactly what we do, just not what you do.
Sean


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## Mark L (Jun 7, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> Yes, but you have to admit that some cheeseburgers are better then others:wink1:


It's all about the chef ....
Cheeseburgers, kempo, ...


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## Doc (Jun 9, 2008)

John Bishop said:


> "In and Out" is 2 blocks away.  Got to drive past it to and from the school.



And we don't want to even get into KFC. (Extra crisp please)


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 10, 2008)

Doc said:


> And we don't want to even get into KFC. (Extra crisp please)


 
You guys got M and M's down there, with some serious soul food (I used to hit the one in Pas, off the fwy at Lake...Washington, I think, but not sure...I can drive straight to it, even if I don't get the street names right). Why KFC?


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## DavidCC (Jun 10, 2008)

One of my least painful experiences in LA was stopping at Jack In The Box at 2am after class and getting the greasiest burger on the menu.  It was the only thing open between the school and my hotel


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## Doc (Jun 11, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> One of my least painful experiences in LA was stopping at Jack In The Box at 2am after class and getting the greasiest burger on the menu.  It was the only thing open between the school and my hotel



First you must have had a bad cook, cause JNB doesn't have any greasy food, (anymore). And second because you didn't know the area, there was everything from Carls Jr. to Denny's open for some decent food. Next time I'm going to take you over to Lucille's, Woody's, or Joey's for some Q and watch your mouth drop. None of that good stuff is in Nebraska dog.


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## Kacey (Jun 11, 2008)

Interesting analogy... but I've been following this thread because I know very little about Kenpo/Kempo, and I'd like to find out more; I know way more about fast food than I want (or need) to know!


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## girlbug2 (Jun 11, 2008)

Well if Ed Parker started American Kenpo, then it follows that any Kenpo being taught by his direct successors would be the closest to "authentic" American Kenpo than others.

So, to research: which among Ed Parkers black belts were the ones _he_ considered the best, and who are their direct descendants?
Perhaps to answer that question, if Ed never actually named favorites, then just research which of those black belts attained the highest ranks eventually.

Now if you're looking at Kenpo other than American, I have no clue how to answer that.


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## DavidCC (Jun 11, 2008)

Doc said:


> First you must have had a bad cook, cause JNB doesn't have any greasy food, (anymore). And second because you didn't know the area, there was everything from Carls Jr. to Denny's open for some decent food. Next time I'm going to take you over to Lucille's, Woody's, or Joey's for some Q and watch your mouth drop. None of that good stuff is in Nebraska dog.


 
Well, it was 2am I'm sure their best cooks were not on the job at that hour.  JNB was directly on my route, and it's something we don;t have out here so it was a treat, grease and all 


Is Lucille's BB King's spot?  I did eat there, that was pretty good Memphis Style BBQ.  Around here we are mostly influenced by the KC school of BBQ, but we aslo have some Texas style too.  I've had California style BBQ, and there are some things y'all need to leave to the experts.  

No good BBQ in Nebraska???  That is categorically untrue and anatomically unworkable (my "anatomical width" proves it)!  I am marking my calendar, "6/11/2008 Doc was wrong"   (this is where my middle daughter works http://www.amarillobbq.com/BBQ.aspx)

Next time you come here, and I am going to arrange it now for this singular purpose, I will make some ribs and some brisket for you and we'll see whose mouth drops brother!  And maybe get in some kenpo too.

However I did concede that the LA cheeseburger was definitely perfected, for sure.  That street-side stand we went to was on another level.


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## MarkC (Jun 11, 2008)

Not knocking on anyone's BBQ style, but if you've never tried it, North Carolina BBQ is something you owe it to yourself to try when opportunity arises. (At least Eastern NC BBQ)


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## Doc (Jun 11, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Well, it was 2am I'm sure their best cooks were not on the job at that hour.  JNB was directly on my route, and it's something we don;t have out here so it was a treat, grease and all
> 
> 
> Is Lucille's BB King's spot?  I did eat there, that was pretty good Memphis Style BBQ.  Around here we are mostly influenced by the KC school of BBQ, but we aslo have some Texas style too.  I've had California style BBQ, and there are some things y'all need to leave to the experts.
> ...



Hope it is better than the Chinese food experiment you took me to. Remember I grew up in San Francisco and LA Chinatown hanging with the guys.


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## Doc (Jun 11, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Well if Ed Parker started American Kenpo, then it follows that any Kenpo being taught by his direct successors would be the closest to "authentic" American Kenpo than others.
> 
> So, to research: which among Ed Parkers black belts were the ones _he_ considered the best, and who are their direct descendants?
> Perhaps to answer that question, if Ed never actually named favorites, then just research which of those black belts attained the highest ranks eventually.
> ...


With all due respect to a mother, (and deference to the estrogen mafia of which I have several members in my own family), just how well did you know Mr. Parker?


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## girlbug2 (Jun 11, 2008)

? I never met the man, although I would have been honored to.
That's just my thought process on how to find out who is teaching "real" american Kenpo. That, and In N Out is still the best cheeseburger.


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## Doc (Jun 11, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> ? I never met the man, although I would have been honored to.
> That's just my thought process on how to find out who is teaching "real" american Kenpo. That, and In N Out is still the best cheeseburger.



I'm sure *Mr. Parker* would have loved to meet you as well.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 11, 2008)

Sorry, didn't mean to offend.


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## Doc (Jun 11, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to offend.



No problem ma'am just don't hurt me please. My previous experiences with my own home-grown estrogen mafia has me a bit skidish.


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## jks9199 (Jun 11, 2008)

MarkC said:


> Not knocking on anyone's BBQ style, but if you've never tried it, North Carolina BBQ is something you owe it to yourself to try when opportunity arises. (At least Eastern NC BBQ)


I think we need a MT/KT BBQ cookoff...

I'll humbly consent to be a judge, though I'm certain it will be an onerous burden...


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## thetruth (Jun 12, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Well if Ed Parker started American Kenpo, then it follows that any Kenpo being taught by his direct successors would be the closest to "authentic" American Kenpo than others.
> 
> So, to research: which among Ed Parkers black belts were the ones _he_ considered the best, and who are their direct descendants?
> Perhaps to answer that question, if Ed never actually named favorites, then just research which of those black belts attained the highest ranks eventually.
> ...



I think that as long as you go into a Parker school that has direct lineage to a relatively high ranked 1st generation black belt then you will be pretty close to learning the right stuff.  As to what direction he wanted to take and what is closest to that now, well I think that is open to conjecture.   Whether the direction was SL4 such as the Doc teaches or Kenpo 5.0 such as Jeff Speakman teaches or the direction any of the others are teaching well that is a matter of opinion.  Each high ranking black belt seems to have their own version of how closely they worked with Ed Parker.  I'm not here to insult anyone I'm just saying very few of us were around Ed Parker at all so the only way we are able to establish who did what and how things were is by what we are told by those who were there.  Each person seems to have a slightly different take on where they stood and the direction Ed Parker wanted to take. I have only read Doc's comments here and have met Jeff Speakman once and can say their versions are not identical as to how things were  so as I said if there is direct lineage to a relatively high ranking 1st generation black belt then you are on the right track as far as choosing someone to train with goes.  If however you want to just find out about where people stood and just get a gist as to how things were then the most qualified person to ask her would be Doc.  But it would be wise to ask others who were there as well if you can track them down just to get a broad range of information
Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2008)

Doc said:


> Hope it is better than the Chinese food experiment you took me to. Remember I grew up in San Francisco and LA Chinatown hanging with the guys.


 

I promise to hook you up with the best BBQ you ever had if you return the favor for Chinese


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I think we need a MT/KT BBQ cookoff...
> 
> I'll humbly consent to be a judge, though I'm certain it will be an onerous burden...


 

OK, everyone come to our camp in September and we'll do it.

www.budocamponline.com

Check out the first two instructors on the list, names that should be familiar to anyone on MartialTalk...


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## donald (Jun 14, 2008)

thetruth said:


> I think that as long as you go into a Parker school that has direct lineage to a relatively high ranked 1st generation black belt then you will be pretty close to learning the right stuff. As to what direction he wanted to take and what is closest to that now, well I think that is open to conjecture. Whether the direction was SL4 such as the Doc teaches or Kenpo 5.0 such as Jeff Speakman teaches or the direction any of the others are teaching well that is a matter of opinion. Each high ranking black belt seems to have their own version of how closely they worked with Ed Parker. I'm not here to insult anyone I'm just saying very few of us were around Ed Parker at all so the only way we are able to establish who did what and how things were is by what we are told by those who were there. Each person seems to have a slightly different take on where they stood and the direction Ed Parker wanted to take. I have only read Doc's comments here and have met Jeff Speakman once and can say their versions are not identical as to how things were so as I said if there is direct lineage to a relatively high ranking 1st generation black belt then you are on the right track as far as choosing someone to train with goes. If however you want to just find out about where people stood and just get a gist as to how things were then the most qualified person to ask her would be Doc. But it would be wise to ask others who were there as well if you can track them down just to get a broad range of information
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


Excellent response.
Peace,
1stJohn1:9


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## Doc (Jun 14, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> I promise to hook you up with the best BBQ you ever had if you return the favor for Chinese



Man that's easy in Southern California. Mr. Parker knew, and hit all the top spots.


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## Doc (Jun 15, 2008)

thetruth said:


> I think that as long as you go into a Parker school that has direct lineage to a relatively high ranked 1st generation black belt then you will be pretty close to learning the right stuff.


If only that were true.


> As to what direction he wanted to take and what is closest to that now, well I think that is open to conjecture.


Absolutely sir.


> Whether the direction was SL4 such as the Doc teaches or Kenpo 5.0 such as Jeff Speakman teaches or the direction any of the others are teaching well that is a matter of opinion. Each high ranking black belt seems to have their own version of how closely they worked with Ed Parker.  I'm not here to insult anyone I'm just saying very few of us were around Ed Parker at all so the only way we are able to establish who did what and how things were is by what we are told by those who were there.  Each person seems to have a slightly different take on where they stood and the direction Ed Parker wanted to take.


And some not even "slightly." 


> I have only read Doc's comments here and have met Jeff Speakman once and can say their versions are not identical as to how things were  so as I said if there is direct lineage to a relatively high ranking 1st generation black belt then you are on the right track as far as choosing someone to train with goes.


Well yes, and no. That assumes people are doing what Parker taught them. In many cases they are not, or weren't taught as much as they would like you to think. Remember these statements span a great deal of time, circumstances, and people of varying interests and capabilities.


> If however you want to just find out about where people stood and just get a gist as to how things were then the most qualified person to ask her would be Doc.


While I appreciate that sir, I think the only thing I can be an absolute expert in, is what Parker wanted me to do, and the material he shared with me. I'm also privileged to what he told me about other people and their status. I also was there to see the creation of a great deal of the material in the golden age of commercial Kenpo, and understand the "why" of its existence.


> But it would be wise to ask others who were there as well if you can track them down just to get a broad range of information.


I couldn't have said it better. Lots of flavors, perspectives, and even a healthy dose of bull. People must decide for themselves where they want to reside.


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## AJPerry (Jun 15, 2008)

Hello from Australia

I have been training under Jeff Speakman for the past 4 years and I believe Dave Crouch has given the best response to this post.

Mr Parker was an innovator and Kenpo is a modified varient in itself of a traditional martial art.  Martial Arts has changed significantly in the past 10 years or so with the Gracie influence and the emergence of MMA fighters.

Mr Parker's Kenpo dealt with the fighters of his day.  Modern Kenpo has to evolve with the changes that have taken place since his passing.  there are many instructors out there and Kenpo is a great art.  Mr. Speakman has adapted his kenpo to include ground fighting and given answers to the way of fighting with the modern MMA fighter.  Many people will argue about how good it is and thats up to them, but the point is Mr. Parker gave us all a set of principles that do not change. Cancelling height, width and depth, not violating point of origin, small circles, zones of sanctuary still apply.  These are the important aspects of fighting.  

A technique can be added to, modified, shortend and altered at any time for any reason.  As long as you are moving within the principles of Mr. Parker then it is quality Kenpo.  If you start moving to hit a target that is already covered or doing some BS move just because it was shown to you then I believe you are missing the point.

Anyone learning Kenpo should read the Infinite Insites series of books written by Mr. Parker and the Encyclopedia of Kenpo and really think about how they move in a fight.  If what you are currently doing contradicts the base priciples of Mr. Parker then seriously look at what you can do to make them more effective.

Mr Parker gave us a language that we can develop not a speech that we have to learn and cannot alter.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 16, 2008)

AJPerry said:


> Hello from Australia
> 
> I have been training under Jeff Speakman for the past 4 years and I believe Dave Crouch has given the best response to this post.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting dillemma with this post, however. "Small circles" and "point of origin" issues consintue to intrigue me, for a simple reason...they are often misinterpreted, having been ill-defined. End result? Guys cutting their power short in exhanche of keeping with a "gospel" of Point of origin-to-point of contact.

Find a copy of New Gladiators, and see if Mr. Parkers circles are all that small. Locate his demo's on the web/youtube, where some poor guy has to sit in a square horse (usually Trejo on the youtube ones), while Mr. P. whips blows past their faces. Note his own points of origin. The size of his own circles, while performing his own basics. Then get back to us regarding wether or not he kinows his own art, or just did it wrong to the day he died.

Although the Infinite Insights series does a nice job of providing definitions, it failed to provide specific meaning in interpretation. Don't give up on big old circles yet; there may be unrecognized value in violating the most economic path of entry with a strike.

Be good,

Dave


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## Doc (Jun 16, 2008)

AJPerry said:


> Hello from Australia
> 
> I have been training under Jeff Speakman for the past 4 years and I believe Dave Crouch has given the best response to this post.
> 
> Mr Parker was an innovator and Kenpo is a modified varient in itself of a traditional martial art.  Martial Arts has changed significantly in the past 10 years or so with the Gracie influence and the emergence of MMA fighters.


While some of what you say is true, "martial arts" hasn't changed significantly since I began study over 50 years ago. What has changed is the information available that was much more difficult to come by. The change you seem to be speaking of, is "martial sport." But even that has not changed very much other than an amalgamation of previous existing sport concepts into a more entertaining, (depending upon personal preferences), package and exposure. I've seen nothing that hadn't already existed in decades passed.


> Mr Parker's Kenpo dealt with the fighters of his day.


And still does. The fighters of his day included those with significant grappling skills. One of Mr. Parker's best training buddies and friends was Gene LeBell. Add to that Wally Jay, and a host of others from various arts and disciplines. Mr. Parker had a black in Judo before he began kenpo training under Chow, who studied real jiujitsu under Henry Okazaki and who along with Parker loved to grapple.


> Modern Kenpo has to evolve with the changes that have taken place since his passing.  there are many instructors out there and Kenpo is a great art.


Let's change that to the "modern kenpo" that you know. Those broad stroke statements might give someone the impression you think you know all the many different flavors of the works of Ed Parker over the years. 4 years of training with anyone won't give you that, so let's speak in terms of what you have personally been exposed to. Personally, I've seen at least six or more different perspectives, all different with various focuses and some that also happen to include grappling.


> Mr. Speakman has adapted his kenpo to include ground fighting and given answers to the way of fighting with the modern MMA fighter.


I commend Jeff for doing that, and complimented him the last time I saw him on his good hard nosed work ethic with his people. No "softies" in his group and I like that. His guys will knuckle up with you.


> Many people will argue about how good it is and thats up to them, but the point is Mr. Parker gave us all a set of principles that do not change.


Here's where you go wrong again. How well did you know Mr. Parker, and when did he give you these unchanging "principles? The truth is Mr. Parker gave the majority of his students "concepts," not "principles." Loads of idea to work with, but that's all they were - sophisticated ideas.


> Cancelling height, width and depth, not violating point of origin, small circles, zones of sanctuary still apply.  These are the important aspects of fighting.
> 
> A technique can be added to, modified, shortend and altered at any time for any reason.


Actually it can't, but that's a discussion for another day about the limitations of the perspective of "idea training." Interesting ideas that need interpretation in every infinite application. Ideas that change from circumstance to circumstance.


> As long as you are moving within the principles of Mr. Parker then it is quality Kenpo.  If you start moving to hit a target that is already covered or doing some BS move just because it was shown to you then I believe you are missing the point.


Maybe you're missing the point. Have you ever considered that simply because you don't understand something, doesn't mean that it isn't viable? All I'm saying is avoid these sweeping statements that may not always apply as you think. Work from your perspective, instead of assigning value to others you may not be aware of.


> Anyone learning Kenpo should read the Infinite Insites series of books written by Mr. Parker and the Encyclopedia of Kenpo and really think about how they move in a fight.  If what you are currently doing contradicts the base priciples of Mr. Parker then seriously look at what you can do to make them more effective. Mr Parker gave us a language that we can develop not a speech that we have to learn and cannot alter.


Well that too is wrong, but than from your perspective, you can't see it. But that's really OK, as long as you don't apply your values to others without knowledge, and work to expand your understanding of what you do to be as effective as you can make it.

Jeff's a good guy and teacher, but he doesn't speak in broad terms like that. He does however, know his own material better than anyone and makes it work for him. You can't ask for any more than that. The "modern Kenpo" most have been exposed to doesn't contain much of the information of previous versions for a reason. Keep working, and you'll be fine sir.


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## MarkC (Jun 16, 2008)

Posted in the wrong thread, ooops.


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## MJS (Jun 17, 2008)

Great replies and Dr. Dave gave some great replies! Thanks Dave!   While the subject really isn't on food, I like the analogy of that, and yes, some burgers are better than others.  

Like I said in my OP, I think that how long someone may have spent with Mr. Parker will come into play.  I mean, if someone only spent a short time compared to someone who was there often, is it possible that things are going to be missed, lost, watered down, etc.?  I'd have to say yes.  But on the other hand, does it mean that person doesnt have anything to offer?


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## Doc (Jun 17, 2008)

MJS said:


> Great replies and Dr. Dave gave some great replies! Thanks Dave!   While the subject really isn't on food, I like the analogy of that, and yes, some burgers are better than others.
> 
> Like I said in my OP, I think that how long someone may have spent with Mr. Parker will come into play.  I mean, if someone only spent a short time compared to someone who was there often, is it possible that things are going to be missed, lost, watered down, etc.?  I'd have to say yes.  But on the other hand, does it mean that person doesnt have anything to offer?



Everyone has something to offer, some more than others. I think as big a factor as time with Mr. P, is what he wanted to share. There were many that were associated with Mr. Parker for many years, and learned little real knowledge. For some their personal circumstances didn't allow for it. Parker had students whose biggest concerns were running a business, therefore they learned the business of kenpo and were very successful. But being in a school everyday, all day, teaching material to keep students moving, interested, and paying doesn't leave room for learning. Even Parker stopped doing it in the early sixties because it stifled his own progress and business as well. Than there were those who were only interested in the art, but had proximity issues. Than there was the issue of capability. Not everyone who had the desire, had the physical and/or mental capacity. Many different and sometimes complicated factors went into what any one individual learned. Direct Lineage is a factor, but only one, and clearly not the deciding factor of competence. Parker had direct students who sucked, and indirect students who excelled. Direct lineage is a good place to start, but judge the individual on their knowledge and capabilities and you may find  a few surprises.


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