# Natural Talent ?



## blackcrow (Jun 14, 2003)

Do you believe that some people have a natural talent for Martial Arts ?


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## MountainSage (Jun 14, 2003)

Blackcrow,
I feel that the question woould be better stated that natural ability as opposed to natural talent.  In my school there are several individuals with optimal body structure to be a excellant MA, yet most people need to train to be very good and still other will honestly not ever be very good at an art.  I probably fall into the last catagory because of my body size and type.

Mountain Sage


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## karatekid1975 (Jun 15, 2003)

I think I am a natural kicker. I wasn't flexible when I first started, but I was able to throw a good kick, with fairly decent technique from the start. And I picked up on joint locks like fish to water.


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## blackcrow (Jun 15, 2003)

Someone told me I have natural talent. I had mixed feelings about that comment. On one hand, if natural talent exists then it would be lucky to posses it. On the other hand, it also implies that proper technique is easier for me to achieve when in fact I train seven days a week. 

This came up once before too..

Someone commented that one of my teachers has great technique in his Forms because he has an Asian body type. This person went on to say that because Martial Arts were designed for the Asian body they look better when an Asian performs them. Once again I had mixed feelings because that teacher trains seven days per week/four hours per day. Even if he is Asian.. if he didn't train he would look like an Asian man with bad technique. 

People sometimes comment that other Martial Artists are good because of "body type", "natural talent", "natural ability", "size", or some of character traite when really I think it still boils down to training. I think you take credit away from a Martial Artist when you say they are good because they are "asian" or have "natural ability".

And btw... this is just me thinking out loud for the sake of conversation. But I have noticed this and often wondered why nobody speaks of it.


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## TangSooGuy (Jun 16, 2003)

Hmm... excellent topic, actually, and me knowing your instructors, I'll have to admit it makes me a little curious.



I have experienced this description many times myself, and I'm not sure thar natural talent or natural ability is really the best description.  I think there is a certain natural aptitude that some people posess, though.

As an instructor, I can tell you that some people do seem to "get it" a lot quicker than others.  This doesn't mean tha through hard work people without this natural aptitudecan't become outstanding martial artists, nor does mean that those with it will automatically become good martial artists.

Remember that martial arts is only partially physical in nature.  I'm not sure why it is, but often in my experience, those"naturally gifted" students often tend to neglect the mental side.  Sometimes they even neglect the physical, as they know they can put out less effort than other students and still look as good, not understanding that the martial arts requires everyone to continually push themselves, no matter how talented, in order to really get anything out of it.

If anything, I'd say in many cases those with the natural talent you speak of are actually pushed harder, as they tend to be some of the first to slack off at advanced levels.

So, simply because this natural aptitude exists, doesn't mean that trainng is really any easier for one who posesses it. We all have to push ourselves to our own limits, rather than judge ourselves in comparison to others.

As for the bosy type issues you brought up, it does have some validity to it, but becomes more an more negligible as one continues to train.

One who posessesa mesomorphic (shorter, muscular, etc..) type does tend to look better perfprming certain techniques early on, but this is more because other body types have specific diffculties dealing with either overall balance (ectomorphic- tall-skinny types), or flexibility (endomorphic- overweight types) that mesomorphs don't tend to encounter.

Quick story:

I trained with Mr. A.W. my whole life.  His body type was very mesomorphic while I have always been more ectomorphic.  Early on, he would always look better in anything he tried, forms sparring, whatever.  he had the 'natural talent' while I did not.  I had to struggle with issues of balance and coordination that he simply did not have.  He did have other challenges however, outside of he scope of this discussion.

As we continued to train, though, the gap between us narrowed is now gone altogether.  I learned where my strengths and weaknesses are, as did he. When we spar, we may go for twenty minutes up toan hour without either of us ever landing a good hit. When we do forms, we each have our own quality we bring to them, diffrent yet also the same.  Now we both simply try to learn what we can from one another.

So aain, while there is some validity to the body typequestion, it does become less apparent over time.

Sorry, this got kind of long-winded and I'm not sure I answered your question.  If you ever have anything you wantto ask more privately, since I am familiar with your training environment, feel free to PM me.

Generally though, if someonetells youyou have natural talent, take it as aboth a compliment and a warning that they'll have their eyes on you, and you'll have to train even harder.

It is both a blessing and a curse, as are many things in life. Know your strengths, but know your weaknesses better.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 16, 2003)

I won't try to disect the physical from the mental but I will say that talent is generaly wasted in the hands of the undisciplined.


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## MountainSage (Jun 16, 2003)

TangSooGuy, great point and well stated, yet I would put one caveat on your statement about the diffrernce between body types getting less as time in training increases, it dependant on the style that person studies. I study WTF TKD and because of my size, 6'2"- 305lbs., my skills will not be as refined as a smaller person in my art, yet if I had the opportunity to study Judo or jujitsu the situation may be reversed.  I will whole-heartedly second your staement about "natural" student sometimes neglecting the mental side of MAs.  When your good at see trees, sometimes you miss the forest.  Touch 'O' death, I hear you and have also seen exactly what your talking about too many times.

Mountain Sage


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## Zepp (Jun 16, 2003)

I think some people may just be more kinethestically (did I spell that right?) inclined than others.  They're just better at learning how they're body works, and so they have an easier time doing anything physical, martial arts included.  And some people are kinethestic dunces, whereas it takes more time to understand their body.  I don't think that this apparent talent is specific to martial arts though, so I voted no.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by blackcrow _
> *Do you believe that some people have a natural talent for Martial Arts ? *



Absolutely.  Some people take to martial arts like a duck to water.  Others, it becomes an acquired taste.  Unfortunately, most of the natural talents are also 90 day wonders.  Oh well.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## blackcrow (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TangSooGuy _
> *Hmm... excellent topic, actually, and me knowing your instructors, I'll have to admit it makes me a little curious.
> 
> Generally though, if someone tells you you have natural talent, take it as a both a compliment and a warning that they'll have their eyes on you, and you'll have to train even harder.
> ...



I think you hit the nail on the head. That might have been a verbal kick in the *** for mentally drifting off.   Many things are said in class without any words being spoken. 

I will send you a PM, I appreciate the offer.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zepp _
> *I think some people may just be more kinethestically (did I spell that right?) *


No you did not spell it right but don't ask me to spell it. Any ways most people are one of three types of learners. Audio, visual, or Kinesthetic ( thats my stab at it). I happen to be an audio person I'm that guy that never read the material in college because I always hung on the lecture. (this didn't always work. My 2.8 in anthropology is a testament to actualy reading the material) My instructor always claimed that Ed Parker was all three, which was why he was so good. One thing I am not is a Kinisthetic person. Kenpo has helped me a lot and believe me some of us have a longer journey than others. There is another guy on this sight that calls himself the Eternal Orange Belt. That was my instructors pet name for me... for two years. What a long strange trip it's been.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 18, 2003)

Here I am talking about Kenpo on a Tang soo do thread. Sorry, I guess we all deal with the same reality.


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## Zepp (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *... I guess we all deal with the same reality. *



Yes we do.  And I think your first spelling of kinesthetic was correct.


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## Shinzu (Jun 19, 2003)

i believe talent in the martial arts can come natural to some people.  it takes alot of hard work to refine these skills but they do come natural.


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## TallAdam85 (Jul 5, 2003)

I have seen people come in to class and where so get they tested  and moved up 3 belts. On the first testing. But there are very few people with born talent.


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## progressivetactics (Jul 5, 2003)

some are born with it....some have to work at it....some never get it at all!!!!


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## stickarts (Sep 25, 2003)

I have definately seen wide ranges of natural talent come through our school. There is no doubt that some are more gifted than others.
However, it can also be amazing how far "average" natural talent can go with drive, committment, and sheer will power!


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## Makalakumu (Jan 24, 2004)

Ability can give challenges that are different from those who have to work really hard to look good...For instance, people with natural ability are more apt to quit.


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## Shinzu (Feb 2, 2004)

some people have a talent for forms, some for techniques, and some for sparring.  i think everyone has a quality that out weights the others in their training.

it might not be the greatest, but it is the most natural talent these people know, so it also makes it the best.


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## Kodanjaclay (Feb 3, 2004)

I disagree that people with natural ability are apt to quit. I had natural ability when I was a kid, and I am still going, as is my best friend, who started a couple years after me.

You have to be careful with generalizations.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Kodanjaclay _
> *I disagree that people with natural ability are apt to quit. I had natural ability when I was a kid, and I am still going, as is my best friend, who started a couple years after me.*



How did you react when techniques came easy?  Did it make you feel confident?  Did you feel as if you could criticize others?  Did you understand that other people might struggle with something that is easy for you?  Those are mental and spiritual challenges.  Many people with natural ability fail in at least one of those questions and a good instructor will pick this up and try to instill some humility in the student.  This may seem mean to the student and they may quit.  I'm not saying that all people with natural ability quit, I'm just saying that people with natural ability have to watch themselves or they can get board and cocky which can cause them to quit.


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## Kodanjaclay (Feb 4, 2004)

Well... considering I was a kid, we didn't really think that way, and had we, our instructor would have been more than happy to humble us. We had the attitude "this is fun!". We did do some really stupid stuff, and sometimes we played rough with each other, but that was only within our clique. Outside of the clique, as we became more senior, it was impressed upon us that we had a role as teachers. We were supposed to be examples, so any "ego stroking" was probably taken care of by that role. I'm not saying that we were perfect, or that within our group, we did not have our opinons... we did. We had one guy we called cowboy because he looked, acted like the guy from best of the best who wore the cowboy hat... chris penn? And yes, he wore a cowboy hat. the guy was a jerk, and we did not like the fact that he was allowed to test for recognition, even though he did not know his material, including the names of his hyung.

Out of the four of us, one ended up being a womanizer, who did become like you described. The other became a US Army Sniper, and now serves as a police officer, and then the two of us, who still train.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 4, 2004)

Your instructor must have been very good.  (still is)  If he can lead so many talented martial artists through the pitfalls of natural ability and ego, he deserves the recognition.  I hope that I can do the same for my students.


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## Kodanjaclay (Feb 4, 2004)

Thank you, but that should be a was. He too has been bitten by the money bug, and these days things are different. This is why I left several years back. Its all about the greenbacks it would seem.


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## the_kicking_fiend (Feb 5, 2004)

some people are just better at moving than others

d


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## Kodanjaclay (Feb 5, 2004)

This is very true.


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## Galvatron (Feb 17, 2004)

I definitely believe that some people catch on more quickly than others. Throughout my years as a student and as an instructor I have seen people who I just knew were going to be great. It's my experience that the best way to retain people who catch on quickly and might otherwise start to bore is to challenge them more.


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## Matt Bernius (Mar 21, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I won't try to disect the physical from the mental but I will say that talent is generaly wasted in the hands of the undisciplined.



A different way to sum this up is:

"True genius succeeds inspite of natural talent, not because of it."

- Matt


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