# Modern Arnis and Soke Boards



## Dan Anderson

News Flash!

I'm off to Texas to test for induction onto the Grandmasters Council of the World Head of Family Sokeship Council.  Did I say test?  Yes.  Test.  Two years ago Bram tested for position on the council and was recognized full grandmaster.  His test went for three hours.  I've got a feeling I'm headed for the same thing.

Oh, did I forget to say this is the first test I've taken in 28 years?  Yikes.  Off to Texas.  I'll fill you in on how it goes.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Guro Harold

Dan Anderson said:


> News Flash!
> 
> I'm off to Texas to test for induction onto the Grandmasters Council of the World Head of Family Sokeship Council. Did I say test? Yes. Test. Two years ago Bram tested for position on the council and was recognized full grandmaster. His test went for three hours. I've got a feeling I'm headed for the same thing.
> 
> Oh, did I forget to say this is the first test I've taken in 28 years? Yikes. Off to Texas. I'll fill you in on how it goes.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


Good luck Dan!

-Harold


----------



## The Last Legionary

Dan-o,
  I'm bery confused. 

  Earlier in this string you said "*1980 is the year I began training*." but just now you said "*did I forget to say this is the first test I've taken in 28 years*?". 2008-28=1980.

  So, you have never tested for any rank in Modern Arnis? Remy just gave you a rank cert? No wonder so many people look at Arnis as a ****ing joke.

  Also, what art are you 'testing' to be a grandmaster in? Your karate system? Not your "MA80" style, since you just said you had no tested rank in Arnis. Or are you now teaching Japanese arts to become a "Soke"?


  For the record, I'm of the "Only a Japanese teacher of a tradtional Japanese art is a legitimate Soke, all others are frauds" school of thought. Too many white wanna-bes buying credibility to fleese the sheeple out there in my not so subtle opinion.


----------



## Brian Johns

To the last legionary,

I have one question: have you trained in Modern Arnis or any other Filipino Martial Art ?

Take care,
Brian Johns


----------



## bobquinn

Wow, Pretty strong thoughts that somehow got written down. This is a freindly place. Just to give you some insight. The Professor had a unorthadox method of testing his private students. I'm assured that no one intent to fraudulently represent the promotion of the arts. If we live like the dinosaur we die by the way of the dinosaur. Peace be with you!

Bob Quinn


----------



## The Last Legionary

> To the last legionary,
> 
> I have one question: have you trained in Modern Arnis or any other Filipino Martial Art ?
> 
> Take care,
> Brian Johns


Yes.
Do I have to have for the questions and comments to be valid?


----------



## bobquinn

Thank you Brian, You got to it before me,as I was rambling on.


----------



## The Last Legionary

bobquinn said:


> Wow, Pretty strong thoughts that somehow got written down. This is a freindly place. Just to give you some insight. The Professor had a unorthadox method of testing his private students. I'm assured that no one intent to fraudulently represent the promotion of the arts. If we live like the dinosaur we die by the way of the dinosaur. Peace be with you!
> 
> Bob Quinn


Dan-o clearly stated that he has not tested in almost 3 decades, and that he started training in Modern Arnis in 1980. That would seem to mean that he never tested for Modern Arnis rank, yet he was a 5th, I think, under Remy, and had himself kknighted as an 8th, or was it 9th, a few back. Now he's heading off to a rankmill for a GM knighting. Sorry, all sounds rather shady to me, and I always considered Dan-o a bit classier than all those fake sokes with their ink-jet wall papers.  I'm of a more traditional bend, that believes folks earn rank on the floor and work their way up, not by passing a video or cutting a check or kissing fraudbutts.  Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's what I believe.


----------



## bobquinn

It is great to have your own feelings, but I do believe that passing judgement without first being judged is not coming from a traditional back ground. I think you might need to talk with others that trained under the Professor. I can only speak of the people that came up the ranks the same time as myself to say that we got the rank from the man and deserved the rank he bestowed upon us. Our test where on the mat with the man!


----------



## MJS

I've said the same thing in Kenpo, so I may as well say it here as well....don't impress me with rank, don't impress me with a fancy title, especially if its something made up...instead, impress me with your skill.  Speaking for myself only here, but when I look for someone to train with or under, that is what I look for...the skill, how well they can teach the art, how well they understand it, and how well they make it work.


----------



## bobquinn

Quote of GM EP
Three people in this world.
One that talks of doing,one that does and one that talks of ones that do.
We all have a place in this wonderful world of MA. Keeping an opened mind is the most important part. Keep it real and the rest will follow.

Wow that was heavy I need to rest.

Bob Quinn


----------



## The Last Legionary

Rank and Titles under Remy are viewed as suspect. Considering that at least 1 of his Datu's held no Modern Arnis rank, and a Senior Master had never tested for his high rank, how many other paper promotions were there?  I don't have to train modern arnis to read comments and draw educated conclusions.  Dan-o was offered at least 2 opportunities to show his experience and depth of knowledge in front of Modern Arnis organizations (WMAA and MARPPIO), and he turned them both down.  Yet he is off seeking a high rank in front of a rank board with questionable experience in Modern Arnis and with a rather suspect reputation.  From where I sit, having read several strings here and elsewhere, it doesn't smell too good.


----------



## hapkenkido

SM Anderson,
 i would say good luck but i am sure you won't need it.


----------



## arnisador

bobquinn said:


> The Professor had a unorthadox method of testing his private students.



Well, testing in Modern Arnis was rather unorganized beyond the first level of black belt, and different people might be promoted for different things. Those expecting a regimented, documented, numerically delineated system as with the JMAs will be disappointed by the relaxed Filipino approach! That doesn't mean the ranks aren't appropriate--they just weren't tested the way Japanese high school students are rigourously tested for college. The Prof. could engage you stick-to-stick for just a few passes and place you pretty quickly.


----------



## Brian Johns

The Last Legionary said:


> Rank and Titles under Remy are viewed as suspect. Considering that at least 1 of his Datu's held no Modern Arnis rank, and a Senior Master had never tested for his high rank, how many other paper promotions were there?  I don't have to train modern arnis to read comments and draw educated conclusions.  Dan-o was offered at least 2 opportunities to show his experience and depth of knowledge in front of Modern Arnis organizations (WMAA and MARPPIO), and he turned them both down.  Yet he is off seeking a high rank in front of a rank board with questionable experience in Modern Arnis and with a rather suspect reputation.  From where I sit, having read several strings here and elsewhere, it doesn't smell too good.



The first sentence of your post contains rather strong language....."viewed as suspect" ? As Arnisador pointed out, Professor (as we all call him) personally worked with a lot of his students and ranked them accordingly. Let me tell ya, he was brutal and pushed his students like hell. No wonder why he left such a fantastic number of highly skilled students. I had been involved in the martial arts for 15 years before getting into Modern Arnis (all of that in Vee Jiu Jitsu) and let me tell you that a lot of the senior Modern Arnis players are some of the best martial artists I have come across....Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, Dan Anderson, Chuck Gauss, Ken Smith, Dr. Schea, the senior students in the Philippines, Brian Zawilinski, Roland Rivera, David Ng, Dan McConnell, Lee Lowery  and there are lots of names that I did not mention. They are real *** kickers.

As for Dan Anderson, he may have had his reasons for not being able to showcase his knowledge in front of WMAA or MARPPIO, but he did in front of the IMAF at the ArnisFest in 2004 and was well received. I know....I was there.

Take care,
Brian Johns


----------



## Guro Harold

The one thing no one can say is that Dan was not open enough to share his plans regarding this matter. He didn't have to do so, he chose to do so.

To me, that in itself deserves some respect.

Also, there is no one clear path to head a system or define a style. Therefore, each person who chooses such a path does so individually. Leadership does not wait around to ask endlessly, what should be done, leaders are decisive in their actions.

We may not agree with a person's perspective or path but someone demonstrating leadership is something to hold with value.

Best of luck again, Dan!

-Harold


----------



## bobquinn

I agree, Dan and I know the conversation with the Professor on Dan's vision for the professor's work. He has the fax to proof it. Those that know, know!


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> Dan-o,
> I'm bery confused.
> 
> *1.*Earlier in this string you said "*1980 is the year I began training*." but just now you said "*did I forget to say this is the first test I've taken in 28 years*?". 2008-28=1980.
> 
> *2.*So, you have never tested for any rank in Modern Arnis? Remy just gave you a rank cert? No wonder so many people look at Arnis as a ****ing joke.
> 
> *3.*Also, what art are you 'testing' to be a grandmaster in? Your karate system? Not your "MA80" style, since you just said you had no tested rank in Arnis. Or are you now teaching Japanese arts to become a "Soke"?
> 
> 
> *4.*For the record, I'm of the "Only a Japanese teacher of a tradtional Japanese art is a legitimate Soke, all others are frauds" school of thought. Too many white wanna-bes buying credibility to fleese the sheeple out there in my not so subtle opinion.


 
Legionary,

Well, at least you didn't put "Book him, murder one." behind the Dan-o.

1.  I see the confusion.  I have been in the martial arts for 41 years and have been a black belt since 1970.  In karate I have been a regional, national and world champion in competitive sparring.  I began Modern Arnis 28 years ago.  I was thinking about my last karate test which was in Chicago, Illinois and that was 28 years ago.  

Did I run through formal tests with Prof. Remy?  Actually, no.  Did he and I work enough together privately for him to assess my knowledge?  I believe so.  Was he sufficiently proficient in the art he founded to assess my skills and knowledge over the years?  Again, I believe so.  Are you?  Hard to say as I don't know your real name so I have no frame of reference regarding your skills and knowledge.

2.  See 1 above.  As to "so many people think..."  Sorry but such a generality is not exact enough.  Yes, there are some who think that way and there are many of us who are working to fix that.

3.  I am testing to be inducted onto the Grandmasters council under the banner of MA80.  MA80 has been recognized in the PI as a legitimate branch of Remy Presas' Modern Arnis.  I am not nor have ever been a practitioner of Japanese martial arts so I am not claiming to be a Soke.  The organization has that term in its name so there you go.

4.  I can understand your viewpoint and really have no problem with it.  I am not a Soke nor do I claim to be a Soke.  It is a Japanese term with a very definite cultural meaning.  

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> *1.*Dan-o clearly stated that he has not tested in almost 3 decades, and that he started training in Modern Arnis in 1980. *2.*That would seem to mean that he never tested for Modern Arnis rank, yet he was a 5th, I think, under Remy, *3.*and had himself kknighted as an 8th, or was it 9th, a few back. Now he's heading off to a rankmill for a GM knighting. *4.*Sorry, all sounds rather shady to me, and I always considered Dan-o a bit classier than all those fake sokes with their ink-jet wall papers. I'm of a more traditional bend, that believes folks earn rank on the floor and work their way up, not by passing a video or cutting a check or kissing fraudbutts. Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's what I believe.


Legionary,

1.  Taken up previously.
2.  My last rating by Prof. Remy was a 6th.
3.  8th is correct.  That has been covered in another long series of posts.  I don't recall being "knighted."  Sir Dan...I like that.
4.  Oh, I am still classy.  There is missing data here.  Two years ago Bram Frank _tested_ for induction onto the board.  It was a three hour test and the reports I got were that it was a rugged affair.  I expect the same.  As to the fake sokes, there are a number of old-time slam 'n' jammers including Gary Dill who sit on the board who would probably bristle at your description of them.  

Now, I have been working on the floor for the last 41 years, 28 of them including modern Arnis into my regimen.  If I had been _only_ sitting around eating bon-bons, "passing checks to fraudbutts" and producing videos, hell, I'd be awfully embarassed.  But I haven't and am not.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> *1.*Rank and Titles under Remy are viewed as suspect. Considering that at least 1 of his Datu's held no Modern Arnis rank, and a Senior Master had never tested for his high rank, how many other paper promotions were there? I don't have to train modern arnis to read comments and draw educated conclusions. *2.*Dan-o was offered at least 2 opportunities to show his experience and depth of knowledge in front of Modern Arnis organizations (WMAA and MARPPIO), and he turned them both down. *3.*Yet he is off seeking a high rank in front of a rank board with questionable experience in Modern Arnis and with a rather suspect reputation. From where I sit, having read several strings here and elsewhere, it doesn't smell too good.


Legionary,

1.  Viewed by whom?  Again this is very general and only states _your_ opinion.  I can respect your suspicion of my positioning as it is my thread you are participating in but that statement is offensive to other practitioners such as Tim Hartman, Kelly Worden, Randi Shea, Roland Rivera, Doug Pierre and a host of others.

2.  Here is where your lack of actual information betrays you.  I hve been to the first two WMAA summer camps and was _on the floor_ for both of them, providing ample opportunity for all WMAA people to see my skill sets.  We had a great time and Tim and Janice were wonderful hosts.  As to MARPPIO, Remy Jr. mentioned to me when I first met him that anyone who had previous rank under his father would be recognized in his organization as an honorary rank until they tested under his organization.  Since I had trained personally under and was rannked by his father, I saw no need to be ranked under him.  Neither one of us seemed to have taken it personally as we have a cordial communication line between ourselves.  

3.  You will find as you continue to train in the martial arts that there are many (in Kelly Worden's words) "connecting threads" amongst disciplines.  What form of Japanese martial art do you train in?  I'm sure you will find that whatever style of that form you train in, there will be other styles with similarities to yours.  What I have found is that masters and grandmasters can recognize qualities in others despite differences in respective curriculums.  One doesn't need to know Modern Arnis to recognize mastery in it.  Did Wally Jay need to know Modern Arnis to see Prof. Remy as legitimate?

If you would humor me could you answer me a few questions?  Who are you,  what do you train in (or have trained in) who is your instructor (or instructors)  and for how long?  My data is up for all to see but who are you, sir?  And why do you keep calling me "Dan-o?"  I don't know you but it sure sounds like you don't like me.  Hmmm...

I forgot one thing.  Regarding the validity of your questions - they're perfectly fine by me as long as they are actual inquiries or clarifications needed for better understanding.  I am taking them in that way for the time being.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson

To everyone else,

It's 1:00 am in Dallas and I am working on a friend's laptop of which I am thoroughly unfamiliar).  Thank you for your well wishing.  As many of you know, MA80 is my branch of Modern Arnis.  

Originally I looked at is my clarification of what Prof. Remy taught.  Over the years it has morphed into somewhat of a "Remy based Dan-arnis."  It has far more Dan-isms in it now that I would have thought it would have.  Last year I had an epiphany when I was in the UK.  I was at the point in my development of MA80 where if he were still alive, I would buck up and disagree with Remy were he to say what I was doing was wrong.  This was huge.  

It also helped that MA80 was recognized as a legitimate branch of Modern Arnis in the PI.

A friend of mine once told me that in the Philippines if one were a master of at least two systems and had over 20 years in each, he could up and declare himself a grandmaster.  I told him that I was a bit old fashioned in that I would not up and declare something like that but instead would rather have that be recognized by others.  

In personal emails sent to me by some members of the WHOFSC I am already referred to as "GM Dan."  I look at the idea of "GM-ship" (to coin a phrase) as another harmonic of 1st degree black belt.  Does learning end at 1st degree?  Never has and never will for me.  Anyway, it's getting late and I am about to ramble.  Later.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador

Dan Anderson said:


> I hve been to the first two WMAA summer camps and was _on the floor_ for both of them, providing ample opportunity for all WMAA people to see my skill sets.



Heh, Mr. Anderson moved much too fast for me to be able to judge his skill! 

I can't believe anyone seriously doubts whether Mr. Anderson is the real deal. I understand (and share) the concern about "Soke boards" but that's a separate issue.


----------



## Dan Anderson

arnisador said:


> I understand (and share) the concern about "Soke boards" but that's a separate issue.


 
Brian & Arnisador,

Thanks.

As to the concern, well, I can totally understand that.  One of the points of contention is the name itself.  I'll ask why the term "Sokeship" is used.  I'll bet it's because the founders of thata organization either have ties to Japan or trained in Japanese or Okinawna arts.  That's my think.

Regarding going before a council - the rub is that we live in America, the land of non-tradition.  This group, as well as a number of other groups, consists of independent senior martial artists.  As I said before I have been in the martial arts for 41 years.  I'm senior to a great many practitoners out there.  A number of these guys are senior to me.  I would absolutely love if Remy could come back among us and say, "Surprise!  I faked it all just to see what you would do in my absense.  You have one day to prepare.  Re-examinations begin tomorrow."  THAT would be cool.  In the absense of that one goes the way that best suits him/her.

I do not give myself numerical rank or titles.  I didn't even give myself the nickname of Super Dan back in the 70's (anybody remember that far back?).  Going in front of a board is more comfortable for me.  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## The Last Legionary

1 Dan-o, I don't believe I've ever questioned your skill. Just the ranking path here. I've got no beefs with your skill.


2 "So Many Think" is a reference to a number of discussions I've read elsewhere that regard the FMA and Modern Arnis specifically, poorly. I can't link to the main site, but it starts with a bull.


3 "Sokes, Soke Boards, etc" These I do have a beef with, as I, and many others, find the use of a traditional Japanese title by a non-Japanese in a non-Japanese system to be fraudulent and disrespectful. Contrary to the lies spread by the egos who abuse it, "Soke" does not mean simply "Founder" nor does it mean "Grandmaster". So please Dan, if they knight you a soke, don't dis the culture and use founder or gm instead.

4 "Rank Board 'tests'" tend to be the "send in a video that we'll never watch and your check and we'll send you your certificate as soon as someone gets back from Office Max with the ink-jet paper".  If this group is actually gonna make you sweat, and I don't mean in the executive sauna way, then maybe they'll go up a notch in my view. I still stand by my view on the disrespectful nature of their name however.

5 "Who Am I" My information is in my profile. My instructors vary, currently I'm studying Europe arts. In the past 20 years, Japanese, Chinese, Okinawan and Filipino arts.

6 "Mastery". I disagree. I believe to recognize mastery in something, one must first be a master in it. I doubt a master ship builder is qualified to recognize a master surgeon. I doubt a master actor is qualified to recognize a master makeup artist, and I doubt a master fly fisherman is qualified to recognize a master baiter.  So why would a master of TKD, which has no stick techniques, be qualified to determine mastery in a stick art such as Modern Arnis?

7 "Do I like you?" I don't know you personally so I have no opinion there. Professionally, I don't dislike you, though I do question some of your actions and it's not my way to pussyfoot around things.

8 "Why do I call you Dan-o"? Because calling you "Mr. Anderson" might get people confused and think you're that kid from the Matrix. :rofl:

9 Thank you for taking this inquisition in a positive way and clearing things up.  Good luck on your test.
:asian:


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> 1 Dan-o, I don't believe I've ever questioned your skill. Just the ranking path here. I've got no beefs with your skill.
> 
> 
> 2 "So Many Think" is a reference to a number of discussions I've read elsewhere that regard the FMA and Modern Arnis specifically, poorly. I can't link to the main site, but it starts with a bull.
> 
> 
> 3 "Sokes, Soke Boards, etc" These I do have a beef with, as I, and many others, find the use of a traditional Japanese title by a non-Japanese in a non-Japanese system to be fraudulent and disrespectful. Contrary to the lies spread by the egos who abuse it, "Soke" does not mean simply "Founder" nor does it mean "Grandmaster". So please Dan, if they knight you a soke, don't dis the culture and use founder or gm instead.
> 
> 4 "Rank Board 'tests'" tend to be the "send in a video that we'll never watch and your check and we'll send you your certificate as soon as someone gets back from Office Max with the ink-jet paper". If this group is actually gonna make you sweat, and I don't mean in the executive sauna way, then maybe they'll go up a notch in my view. I still stand by my view on the disrespectful nature of their name however.
> 
> 5 "Who Am I" My information is in my profile. My instructors vary, currently I'm studying Europe arts. In the past 20 years, Japanese, Chinese, Okinawan and Filipino arts.
> 
> 6 "Mastery". I disagree. I believe to recognize mastery in something, one must first be a master in it. I doubt a master ship builder is qualified to recognize a master surgeon. I doubt a master actor is qualified to recognize a master makeup artist, and I doubt a master fly fisherman is qualified to recognize a master baiter. So why would a master of TKD, which has no stick techniques, be qualified to determine mastery in a stick art such as Modern Arnis?
> 
> 7 "Do I like you?" I don't know you personally so I have no opinion there. Professionally, I don't dislike you, though I do question some of your actions and it's not my way to pussyfoot around things.
> 
> 8 "Why do I call you Dan-o"? Because calling you "Mr. Anderson" might get people confused and think you're that kid from the Matrix. :rofl:
> 
> 9 Thank you for taking this inquisition in a positive way and clearing things up. Good luck on your test.
> :asian:


 
Legionary,

1.  Understood.  My last post should exxplain my position.

2.  Ahhh, *********.  (I wrote the actual name and then saw it filled with asterisks - oh well)  They certainly have their likes and dislikes, don't they.

3.  Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't "Soke" have more to do with an inheritor of a system from a founder or grandmaster?  Actually, I plan to continue using the title "Professor" (which has raised a bit of a **** storm in the past).  Perhaps once I feel comfortable with it, then GM.  But it's Professor to my clan and Dan to the rest, just as it has been for years.

4.  From everything I have been told, sweat is going to be a requirement on this one.  Like I said, Bram's was rough and rugged and he told me that there are slam 'n' jammers on the board so I am not expecting a tea social.  

5.  Fair enough.

6.  I understand your disagreement but your examples are of dissimilar activities.  I am talking about martial arts here and martial arts has one common goal - self protection.  It has a common ground - use of the whole body in order to attain that goal.  There are only so many ways to move the body.  There are only a handful of underlying principles to the martial arts.  As one achieves mastery one can recognize if another is operating on principles or personal attributes.  Like I said, one might not the curriculum but one can know the principles and recognize if they are being used or not.

7.  Fair enough.  Agreement is not a requirement for discussion.

8.  Ahhh, a sense of  humor.  But using Dan-o might get me confused withe Jack Lord's side kick in the TV series "Hawaii 5-0."  Gads, I'm really showing my age!!!

9.  Thank you and thanks for the spirited exchange.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## The Last Legionary

For Soke information, you can check here.
http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Soke

It's a bit short, but a good start.

As to the Hawaii-5-0 ref, was a good show, but no one would ever confuse you with Jack Lord. He has hair.  (That's a joke. I'm as bald as Kojak myself) :rofl:


----------



## Dan Anderson

Thanks for the reference.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

The Last Legionary said:


> Dan-o,
> I'm bery confused.
> 
> Earlier in this string you said "*1980 is the year I began training*." but just now you said "*did I forget to say this is the first test I've taken in 28 years*?". 2008-28=1980.
> 
> So, you have never tested for any rank in Modern Arnis? Remy just gave you a rank cert? No wonder so many people look at Arnis as a ****ing joke.
> 
> Also, what art are you 'testing' to be a grandmaster in? Your karate system? Not your "MA80" style, since you just said you had no tested rank in Arnis. Or are you now teaching Japanese arts to become a "Soke"?
> 
> 
> For the record, I'm of the "Only a Japanese teacher of a tradtional Japanese art is a legitimate Soke, all others are frauds" school of thought. Too many white wanna-bes buying credibility to fleese the sheeple out there in my not so subtle opinion.



I'm in Atlantic City this weekend for a seminar and tournament, so I'll be brief.

LL-
If Dan wants to test to become a GM in front of the Soke council, that's his right. So we are on the same page I'm not endorsing his decision just his right to make it. Personally I'm not down with the council thing, but I'm not the one testing to become a GM. I would recommend minding your own business and let Dan do his thing.


----------



## MJS

The following is just my opinion.  Looking at a few posts, a couple of things came to mind.

Is MA80 its own entity?  Sure.  Its a branch that Dan set up that he is in charge of.  

Does everyone understand the seperate orgs?  Probably not.  So this means that its possible to lump all Arnis into one.  Kinda like the saying, "One bad apple spoils the bunch." So if someone sees something odd, such as a real high rank, a high title, etc., its possible for someone to think that everyone in Arnis is like that.

I think another concern for some is the use of titles.  I mean hell, we have people, who shall remain nameless, but I'm sure some will know who I'm talking about, that run around saying they're the successor to Remy.  Some even gave themselves the title of Professor.  Are these people really the successor?  Do they really deserve the title Professor? What about GM?  Are these titles legit?  Were they authorized by Remy?  Or did someone take advantage of the man while he was on his death bed?  

Maybe some will go ooohhh and ahhhh when they see someone with a fancy title, but it really doesnt phase me at all.  I've never questioned anyones skill..I question the use of the title.  Title, belts, all the fancy wine dressing...that isn't what matters to me.  What matters to me is the persons skill, how well they know the art, can they teach it, can they apply it...those are the things that I look for.  

Are Sokeship Councils legit?  Dont really know and frankly I dont care, because I have not and will not go to one for any rank.  One thing that always made me wonder about things like that is...do people from the art you're seeking rank in, actually sit on the panel or do you have a bunch of people who know nothing about the art?  In other words...I could care less if you had a high ranking JKD guy, a high ranking TKD guy or a high ranking Kenpo guy.  If they are not qualified in or ranked in Arnis, what the hell business do they have giving rank in an art they know nothing about?  That'd be like me sitting on a TKD exam board.  I know zero about TKD...how could I rank someone?  

I suppose that anyone is free to do as they choose.  In the end, its that person that has to live with the decision.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I'm in Atlantic City this weekend for a seminar and tournament, so I'll be brief.
> 
> LL-
> If Dan wants to test to become a GM in front of the Soke council, that's his right. So we are on the same page I'm not endorsing his decision just his right to make it. Personally I'm not down with the council thing, but I'm not the one testing to become a GM. I would recommend minding your own business and let Dan do his thing.


Tim, you're right, it's his right to do as he sees fit. However I don't think you're one to talk about promotions, all things considered.


----------



## Dan Anderson

MJS said:


> The following is just my opinion. Looking at a few posts, a couple of things came to mind.
> 
> Is MA80 its own entity? Sure. Its a branch that Dan set up that he is in charge of.
> 
> Does everyone understand the seperate orgs? Probably not. So this means that its possible to lump all Arnis into one. Kinda like the saying, "One bad apple spoils the bunch." So if someone sees something odd, such as a real high rank, a high title, etc., its possible for someone to think that everyone in Arnis is like that.
> 
> I think another concern for some is the use of titles. I mean hell, we have people, who shall remain nameless, but I'm sure some will know who I'm talking about, that run around saying they're the successor to Remy. Some even gave themselves the title of Professor. Are these people really the successor? Do they really deserve the title Professor? What about GM? Are these titles legit? Were they authorized by Remy? Or did someone take advantage of the man while he was on his death bed?
> 
> Maybe some will go ooohhh and ahhhh when they see someone with a fancy title, but it really doesnt phase me at all. I've never questioned anyones skill..I question the use of the title. Title, belts, all the fancy wine dressing...that isn't what matters to me. What matters to me is the persons skill, how well they know the art, can they teach it, can they apply it...those are the things that I look for.
> 
> Are Sokeship Councils legit? Dont really know and frankly I dont care, because I have not and will not go to one for any rank. One thing that always made me wonder about things like that is...do people from the art you're seeking rank in, actually sit on the panel or do you have a bunch of people who know nothing about the art? In other words...I could care less if you had a high ranking JKD guy, a high ranking TKD guy or a high ranking Kenpo guy. If they are not qualified in or ranked in Arnis, what the hell business do they have giving rank in an art they know nothing about? That'd be like me sitting on a TKD exam board. I know zero about TKD...how could I rank someone?
> 
> I suppose that anyone is free to do as they choose. In the end, its that person that has to live with the decision.


 
Hey Mike,

Good post.  To me, titles are harmonics of a numerical ranking.  I do agree with you that A. in the end skill, knowledge, attitude and how to instruct are the important things and B. one lives with the decisions one makes.  

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Dan Anderson

Hi All,

Back in Dallas.  The event went well and the testing for induction onto the council went even better.  It took roughly an hour and was split up into two parts: oral and physical.  Any of you who know me will know I have no problems being shy explaining any point of view that I have: technical, philosophical, historical or what not.  The physical presentation I felt went very well.  I was prepared mentally, was quite confident and I believe it showed.  

My thanks to my partner from Dallas, Don Kerstetter and my CSSD/SC brother Shuki Dray from Florida.  Don began training wth RP back in 1983 and is originally from Tennessee (for those of you old camp guys to remember him) and now trains with me.  Shuki is Bram Frank's longest continuously training student dating back to... I forget when but he's been around Bram the longest and has the best historical perspective of Bram's knife work.  They were not only quite willing to participate in it with me but neither of them are direct students of mine so they moved differently enough to keep me on my toes and in present to shift gears when they did something off beat.  I like when that happens.  Good stuff.

Aside from the induction onto the council I, along with the amazing Don Jacobs from Trinidad (see this guy if you can - amazing), I was also presented with the Grand Master of the Year 2008 award.  This was totally unexpected and was very kind that Bram nominated me for it.  

So, in the long run what does this mean to me?  Acknowledgement.  One thing that is so underrated is the power of a simple acknowledgement.  This is something I learned in my Scientology training many years ago.  A couple of examples of acknowledgements:  I remember at the first WMAA camp, Jeff Leader mentioning in passing that he liked the fact that I was out there on the floor training along with eveyone else (the lower ranking belts) and that meant a lot.  The same comment was made by a number of people when I was in the Philippines where _I _was an instructor for _my own_ classes.  I was till out there training in other people's classes.  Both of them were acknowledgements of an action taken.  Rather than looking into them for any kind of hidden meanings or motives it was just a statement noting what was done.  "Hey, you wuz on do floor and sweated, too." 

Another great acknowledgment was being accepted by Manong Ted Buot as a student.  He recognized that I was being sincere in my desire to learn balintawak eskrima.  Acknowledgements are powerful things.

This is what this examination was to me.  I have been in the martial arts for 41 years.  My credentials are pretty strong - both in karate and arnis.  I have nothing _to prove_ to anybody.  But rather than have that as a _"you can kiss my ***"_ attitude, I fully recognize that I have a long way to go.  I think a skilled practitioner knows not only his strong points but also knows his limitations.  He keeps his strong points well oiled and his limitations gives him something to continue to work on.  I also keep in mind that I have seniors.  There are people out there who have been in the martial arts longer than I have and some longer than I have been alive.  To receive an acknowledgement like this from my seniors is special.

All in all, it has been a very good weekend and when I get home I'll catch up on the sleep I've missed.

I'll post some pictures when I get them from Shuki.  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador

Congratulations to you! That's great.


----------



## Dieter

Congratulations Dan. 
Well deserved.

Dieter


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Congratulations Dan and you are right you can definately explain your point of view.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Brian,

Thanks.

Dieter,

Missed you.  Had a great time.

Dan


----------



## Guro Harold

Congratulations, Dan!!!

Job well done!

-Harold


----------



## The Last Legionary

Dan Anderson said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Back in Dallas.  The event went well and the testing for induction onto the council went even better.  It took roughly an hour and was split up into two parts: oral and physical.  Any of you who know me will know I have no problems being shy explaining any point of view that I have: technical, philosophical, historical or what not.  The physical presentation I felt went very well.  I was prepared mentally, was quite confident and I believe it showed.
> 
> My thanks to my partner from Dallas, Don Kerstetter and my CSSD/SC brother Shuki Dray from Florida.  Don began training wth RP back in 1983 and is originally from Tennessee (for those of you old camp guys to remember him) and now trains with me.  Shuki is Bram Frank's longest continuously training student dating back to... I forget when but he's been around Bram the longest and has the best historical perspective of Bram's knife work.  They were not only quite willing to participate in it with me but neither of them are direct students of mine so they moved differently enough to keep me on my toes and in present to shift gears when they did something off beat.  I like when that happens.  Good stuff.
> 
> Aside from the induction onto the council I, along with the amazing Don Jacobs from Trinidad (see this guy if you can - amazing), I was also presented with the Grand Master of the Year 2008 award.  This was totally unexpected and was very kind that Bram nominated me for it.
> 
> So, in the long run what does this mean to me?  Acknowledgement.  One thing that is so underrated is the power of a simple acknowledgement.  This is something I learned in my Scientology training many years ago.  A couple of examples of acknowledgements:  I remember at the first WMAA camp, Jeff Leader mentioning in passing that he liked the fact that I was out there on the floor training along with eveyone else (the lower ranking belts) and that meant a lot.  The same comment was made by a number of people when I was in the Philippines where _I _was an instructor for _my own_ classes.  I was till out there training in other people's classes.  Both of them were acknowledgements of an action taken.  Rather than looking into them for any kind of hidden meanings or motives it was just a statement noting what was done.  "Hey, you wuz on do floor and sweated, too."
> 
> Another great acknowledgment was being accepted by Manong Ted Buot as a student.  He recognized that I was being sincere in my desire to learn balintawak eskrima.  Acknowledgements are powerful things.
> 
> This is what this examination was to me.  I have been in the martial arts for 41 years.  My credentials are pretty strong - both in karate and arnis.  I have nothing _to prove_ to anybody.  But rather than have that as a _"you can kiss my ***"_ attitude, I fully recognize that I have a long way to go.  I think a skilled practitioner knows not only his strong points but also knows his limitations.  He keeps his strong points well oiled and his limitations gives him something to continue to work on.  I also keep in mind that I have seniors.  There are people out there who have been in the martial arts longer than I have and some longer than I have been alive.  To receive an acknowledgement like this from my seniors is special.
> 
> All in all, it has been a very good weekend and when I get home I'll catch up on the sleep I've missed.
> 
> I'll post some pictures when I get them from Shuki.  All for now.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


Dan,
  First a congratulations. Showing what you've got and being recognized for it is a wonderful thing.

I do have a question though. What does this all do for you other than pad an all ready respectible resume a bit with some extra fluff?


----------



## MJS

Dan Anderson said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> Good post. To me, titles are harmonics of a numerical ranking. I do agree with you that A. in the end skill, knowledge, attitude and how to instruct are the important things and B. one lives with the decisions one makes.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan


 


Dan Anderson said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Back in Dallas. The event went well and the testing for induction onto the council went even better. It took roughly an hour and was split up into two parts: oral and physical. Any of you who know me will know I have no problems being shy explaining any point of view that I have: technical, philosophical, historical or what not. The physical presentation I felt went very well. I was prepared mentally, was quite confident and I believe it showed.
> 
> My thanks to my partner from Dallas, Don Kerstetter and my CSSD/SC brother Shuki Dray from Florida. Don began training wth RP back in 1983 and is originally from Tennessee (for those of you old camp guys to remember him) and now trains with me. Shuki is Bram Frank's longest continuously training student dating back to... I forget when but he's been around Bram the longest and has the best historical perspective of Bram's knife work. They were not only quite willing to participate in it with me but neither of them are direct students of mine so they moved differently enough to keep me on my toes and in present to shift gears when they did something off beat. I like when that happens. Good stuff.
> 
> Aside from the induction onto the council I, along with the amazing Don Jacobs from Trinidad (see this guy if you can - amazing), I was also presented with the Grand Master of the Year 2008 award. This was totally unexpected and was very kind that Bram nominated me for it.
> 
> So, in the long run what does this mean to me? Acknowledgement. One thing that is so underrated is the power of a simple acknowledgement. This is something I learned in my Scientology training many years ago. A couple of examples of acknowledgements: I remember at the first WMAA camp, Jeff Leader mentioning in passing that he liked the fact that I was out there on the floor training along with eveyone else (the lower ranking belts) and that meant a lot. The same comment was made by a number of people when I was in the Philippines where _I _was an instructor for _my own_ classes. I was till out there training in other people's classes. Both of them were acknowledgements of an action taken. Rather than looking into them for any kind of hidden meanings or motives it was just a statement noting what was done. "Hey, you wuz on do floor and sweated, too."
> 
> Another great acknowledgment was being accepted by Manong Ted Buot as a student. He recognized that I was being sincere in my desire to learn balintawak eskrima. Acknowledgements are powerful things.
> 
> This is what this examination was to me. I have been in the martial arts for 41 years. My credentials are pretty strong - both in karate and arnis. I have nothing _to prove_ to anybody. But rather than have that as a _"you can kiss my ***"_ attitude, I fully recognize that I have a long way to go. I think a skilled practitioner knows not only his strong points but also knows his limitations. He keeps his strong points well oiled and his limitations gives him something to continue to work on. I also keep in mind that I have seniors. There are people out there who have been in the martial arts longer than I have and some longer than I have been alive. To receive an acknowledgement like this from my seniors is special.
> 
> All in all, it has been a very good weekend and when I get home I'll catch up on the sleep I've missed.
> 
> I'll post some pictures when I get them from Shuki. All for now.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Hey Dan,

Well, overall it sounds like you had a nice time.   One thing in your above post that caught my eye specifically was when you spoke of acknowledgement.  Now, perhaps I'm reading this wrong, and God knows, misunderstandings happen all the time online, so that may be another case here, but were you not getting acknowledgement prior to this trip?  I mean, anyone who has been around for a while should know of you, either from your karate days or your time in Arnis.  Basically what I'm asking is...does acknowledgement require a fancy title or is skill alone enough to acknowledge someone?

Mike


----------



## Dan Anderson

MJS said:


> Hey Dan,
> 
> Well, overall it sounds like you had a nice time.  One thing in your above post that caught my eye specifically was when you spoke of acknowledgement. Now, perhaps I'm reading this wrong, and God knows, misunderstandings happen all the time online, so that may be another case here, but were you not getting acknowledgement prior to this trip? I mean, anyone who has been around for a while should know of you, either from your karate days or your time in Arnis. Basically what I'm asking is...does acknowledgement require a fancy title or is skill alone enough to acknowledge someone?
> 
> Mike


Hey Mike,

Was I not getting acknowledgement prior to the trip.  Yes, mostly from peers and juniors.  From seniors, not really.  They have better things to do than to follow my career.  _"Does acknowledgement require a fancy title or is skill alone enough to acknowledge someone?"_  REQUIRE?  No.  Do I appreciate it?  Yes.  It's like the difference between knowing you are good enough to be a black belt and undergoing the test and becoming a black belt.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## The Last Legionary

Dan Anderson said:


> Hey Mike,
> 
> Was I not getting acknowledgement prior to the trip.  Yes, mostly from peers and juniors.  From seniors, not really.  They have better things to do than to follow my career.  _"Does acknowledgement require a fancy title or is skill alone enough to acknowledge someone?"_  REQUIRE?  No.  Do I appreciate it?  Yes.  It's like the difference between knowing you are good enough to be a black belt and undergoing the test and becoming a black belt.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan


Dan,
 That was the answer I was looking for, not what as in your previous reply that you pointed to.  I do have a couple of questions though.
1: Your test was an hour, being part verbal and part physical, yet you sad that Bram Frank's was 3 hours long.
1A: Why the difference in duration? Surely a test for Grandmaster should take longer, considering that some blackbelt tests are 4+ hours long.
1B: Could you have failed the test? Meaning, was it a real test, or simply a demonstration?
2: Who was on the board viewing your test?


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> Dan,
> That was the answer I was looking for, not what as in your previous reply that you pointed to. I do have a couple of questions though.
> 1: Your test was an hour, being part verbal and part physical, yet you sad that Bram Frank's was 3 hours long.


Correct.



> 1A: Why the difference in duration? Surely a test for Grandmaster should take longer, considering that some blackbelt tests are 4+ hours long.


Don't know. A POSSIBLE reason is that my pedigree, my time in the arts and list of accomplishments made it clear from the get go that I was legitimate. I do know that Bram is less well known than I am in the general martial arts community and some of the testing board hadn't seen him move. From what I understand, they blew off a number of applicants prior to _this_ event - told them not to test.



> 1B: Could you have failed the test? Meaning, was it a real test, or simply a demonstration?


For me it was a test. As to failing, quite possibly if I was a complete screw up physically or if it showed that I padded my resume. These guys are no-nonsense guys who have very little time for fakes or screw offs. 



> 2: Who was on the board viewing your test?


Sensei Phil Little, Prof. Gary Dill & GM Frank Sanchez conducted the orals. GM Frank Sanchez, Prof. Gary Dill and GM Bram Frank conducted the physical.

Any other questions before I close this discussion down with a smile?

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## The Last Legionary

Dan Anderson said:


> Correct.
> 
> Don't know. A POSSIBLE reason is that my pedigree, my time in the arts and list of accomplishments made it clear from the get go that I was legitimate. I do know that Bram is less well known than I am in the general martial arts community and some of the testing board hadn't seen him move. From what I understand, they blew off a number of applicants prior to _this_ event - told them not to test.




Now that is an interesting note. Most of the boards I've seen are about collecting their fees over quality.



> For me it was a test. As to failing, quite possibly if I was a complete screw up physically or if it showed that I padded my resume. These guys are no-nonsense guys who have very little time for fakes or screw offs.






> Sensei Phil Little, Prof. Gary Dill & GM Frank Sanchez conducted the orals. GM Frank Sanchez, Prof. Gary Dill and GM Bram Frank conducted the physical.


 
Dill I know, Little and Sanchez I don't, and Frank I avoid as I've heard he Bennihana's his Ukes, and I don't go well with fish. Time for some Googling for me.



> Any other questions before I close this discussion down with a smile?
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
For now, no. I'll think of something later after I get done smacking a Datu on his rear. Thank you for the answers. :cheers:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I got a PM asking me to comment here.  Fine. I'll comment, as me, not as the "Owner".

*Regarding Dan's promotion:*
Dan, I disagree with the idea of these "Soke" boards. Sorry, bit of a purist at heart here, and they ain't real "sokes" any more than I'm a large busted Swedish woman named Inga. But, they are better at evaluating someone's martial skill than I, by a long shot. So, while I disagree with the title usage, if they say you're the goods, then hey, congrats and pats on the back and all that good stuff. Personally, I don't think you, or anyone needs the paper as your real rank shows on the floor, and in the other works you do spreading the arts to new generations of students.  Dan puts out a bunch of books and videos and is out there like him or not. Most of his detractors hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him so I consider their comments worthless.

*Regarding Tim's 7th and 9th's:*
Old news, I'm so tired and bored with those arguments that I wrote the damn faq on them. It's on Wiki (where his entry was repeatedly defaced by a couple of petty individuals from WNY), it's on FMATalk, it's on Martialtalk, and it was posted repeatedly on Jerome Barbers old list.  Bottom line, he was promoted by an organizational board of his peers. recognize it or not, he's still the highest tested in years under Remy. Most of his detractors never did test under Remy, or did for low rank. They also don't like Tim Hartman so I question their ability to accurately and objectively judge his skill.

*Regarding Tim's 9th and GM rank in Kombatan:*
Tim can explain it. My only comment is, I'm sure that GM Ernesto is better qualified to judge who he will issue rank to in his own art, than those who have little to no experience with it.

*Tim in General:*
Tim teaches internationally, and puts out videos and is all over the internet with his name and arts out there like him or not. Most of his detractors again hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him, and won't even post a simple YouTube video of themselves so again, I consider their comments worthless.


Beyond that, when it comes to Modern Arnis politics, and all that ********, leave me the **** alone. I'll gladly shoot pictures, build websites, listen to war stories, and when possible learn cool techniques, but as far as the politics and bad blood and game playing, I'm not anyone's pawn, and I'm not interested in the gaming. Been there, done that, grew the **** up. K? Thnx. 

Now if those arguing will excuse me, I have a couple hundred photos to work through from this past weekends training camp.


----------



## Morgan

The Last Legionary said:


> Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior.
> 
> For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?


 
A very good set of questions.  As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him?  Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system?  I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however.  Other opinions would be helpful.

Since this second question could possibly take me back to the Datu Hartman and WMAA matter via a backdoor entrance, I'll simply pass and only acknowledge that I read your question and have though about it. 

Morgan


----------



## MJS

Morgan said:


> A very good set of questions. As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him? Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system? I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however. Other opinions would be helpful.
> 
> Since this second question could possibly take me back to the Datu Hartman and WMAA matter via a backdoor entrance, I'll simply pass and only acknowledge that I read your question and have though about it.
> 
> Morgan


 
From reading some posts here, it seems that the concerns or questions are...why would you want to promote yourself?  Why would you want to take a title if you didn't earn it?  Why would you test for rank IFO a group that may not have people on the board that train in the art you're testing for?  

So, sure, someone could promote themselves, test in front of a soke board or anything else...but, as I said in another post...its that person that has to live with it.  Someone could walk around with the title Ultimate Supreme GM of the World...I don't care.  That does not impress me.  I've listed what I look for in other posts, so I'm not going to post it again here.


----------



## Archangel M

Well. Im not up on all the inside **** here, but what is the big deal about some martial artist having his rank ratified by guys with the clout to do so? Thats whats going on here right? It sounds like theres some debate over who has that clout. 

If I ran the world I would say that you can only be promoted by someone of higher rank than yourself. If that person doesnt exist then there needs to be some consensus amongst the highest ranking people in the entire system as to who is going to be in charge.


----------



## The Last Legionary

The issue is legitimacy and if the one judging is qualified to do so. 
"Soke" is a Japanese term. It's not Polish. It's not Spanish. It's Japanese.  Dan-o went in front of a SOKE board. Why not a Pharaoh's board, or a Deacon's board? How about a Knight's board?  Then he could be Sir-Dan-o. (Dani-o? Wait. She's a porn star I think.) Heck, Kaith's a frickin God, certainly he could make Dan a Pope or something. Soke is not an interchangable term for either "founder" or "grandmaster". Only the uneducated and ill-informed hold to that view.

You get rank several ways. But in reality, there's only 2. You are given it, or you take it.
If you are given it, how it is given, and by who matters.
Dan was recognized as a grandmaster by a board of experienced martial artists, who are misusing a cultural title. I question the rest of their judgements, but not their skills. 

If you simply take it, and say "Today, I shall be known as GrandMaster" then you have to live up to that title, by further developing your skills, spreading whatever it is you are GM of, etc.

My question for Dan here is a simple one. WHO promoted him to Grandmaster rank? Not who called you it at a camp, not who recognized you as one, but who tapped him on the shoulders with a sword (or cane) and said "you are now a grandmaster."

I also still am waiting for Tim to provide his promised reply to my earlier questions.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Archangel M said:


> Well. Im not up on all the inside **** here, but what is the big deal about some martial artist having his rank ratified by guys with the clout to do so? Thats whats going on here right? It sounds like theres some debate over who has that clout.
> 
> If I ran the world I would say that you can only be promoted by someone of higher rank than yourself. If that person doesnt exist then there needs to be some consensus amongst the highest ranking people in the entire system as to who is going to be in charge.


But Dan's system is MA80, and he's the highest ranking person in it. So, who can promote him in his own system?

A brain surgeon is not qualified to judge a dentist, yet both are medical doctors.
Why would a TKD master be qualified to judge an FMA master, considering one art is high kicks and the other sticks and knives? The requirements for the two systems of martial arts are quite different. That is the problem with "soke" boards. Sure the core basics are pretty much similar, but then again a GM isn't being judged on his basics, but his advanced material and concepts. A family portrait photographer is not the right person to judge a fine-art-nude photographer, nor is a pro golfer qualified to judge a mini-golf champion, nor is a master house painter qualified to judge my watercolors or oils.


----------



## The Last Legionary

The Game said:


> I don't think anyone here is saying that they aren't legit because of the intentional misuse of the term. But I do think it's a fair concern.  There are a hundred different halls and councils and boards out there, so I guess it's a matter of whatever paper you feel the need for, and all that.


The paper is worth what backs it. If it's money, it's usually precious metals, gems, or plain faith.  In the case of a martial arts rank, it's only valid when the issuer is of value.
I question the value of any award or rank from any organization that misuses cultural titles. To me, it's all resume padding. Most of those on such boards, don't need it, except for marketing purposes, because the average "Karate Mom" thinks that someone having 10 high level black belts is a better teacher than someone with just 1. Ever see someone with 10, 20, 30 or even 40+ blackbelts? Think they really know all that stuff and really went through all the material? If you do, let me know. I have a bridge I'd like to talk to you about buying.


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> *1.*The issue is legitimacy and if the one judging is qualified to do so.
> "Soke" is a Japanese term. It's not Polish. It's not Spanish. It's Japanese. Dan-o went in front of a SOKE board.
> 
> *2.*My question for Dan here is a simple one. WHO promoted him to Grandmaster rank? Not who called you it at a camp, not who recognized you as one, but who tapped him on the shoulders with a sword (or cane) and said "you are now a grandmaster."


 
LL,

1.  The name of the group is Soke.  You are being awfully literal and not conceptual.  There ARE a number of japanese and Okinawan stylists on the board, btw.
2.  Re-read about 6 posts above the one I'm quoting and the answer is there in plain English.

Dan


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Dan,
  If you'd like I can dub the an Earl or something. Next time you're out this way, stop in, and I can tap you on the shoulder with a SmakStik. 


btw, here's Dans answer to LL's question.


> Was I promoted to GM? No. The council doesn't promote someone to Grand Master. They feel you are already a Grand Master when you test for induction onto the council. Did I self promote? Not in the way of formal declaration and announcement. Have I considered myself one? For the last couple years, yes. Do I consider myself one now? As regards MA-80 and American Freestyle Karate (established 1977), yes.



As another aside, for $50 I'll send anyone who asks a certificate certifying them as a reasonably high rank in Kungate. $100 for a 10th dan. On genuine paper. Really. Hey, I can do that. I'm the recognized GM of that system.


----------



## MJS

Archangel M said:


> Well. Im not up on all the inside **** here, but what is the big deal about some martial artist having his rank ratified by guys with the clout to do so? Thats whats going on here right? It sounds like theres some debate over who has that clout.
> 
> If I ran the world I would say that you can only be promoted by someone of higher rank than yourself. If that person doesnt exist then there needs to be some consensus amongst the highest ranking people in the entire system as to who is going to be in charge.


 
Just so I'm getting this right here....are you saying that just because someone has a high rank, that their word should be good enough to vouch for someone else?  Sorry, but if thats what you're saying, I disagree.  Yes, Dan went in front of some Soke panel, etc., but if nobody on the board had an Arnis rank, their opinion is moot.  I don't care if 30 10th dans were sitting there...if not one of them had Arnis background, their opinion means nothing.  Thats like me, a 3rd in Kenpo, sitting on a TKD test board.  What the hell do I know about TKD?  Nothing!  Sure, a kick is a kick, but I don't know the kata, the SD, etc.  If you're going for rank in Arnis, the ENTIRE panel needs to be Arnis, not 2 or 3 out of the 10 sitting there.  I tested in the beginning of this year for my black in Arnis.  Every single person on the board was an Arnis black belt.  

But like I said, in the end, I know what I do, and I know what others do.  Does it concern me?  Technically no, because I test in front of people who are doing my art.  But, it gives a bit of a bad mark to the art as a whole.  People see soemthing and they assume that everyone is like that.  People will assume that an Arnis rank test is done in front of a soke board.


----------



## bobquinn

Folks,
You are all getting it wrong!
It's all about respect and I have yet to see in these post the respect for those that are our elders. It is obvious that the apple has not fell from the tree. Some may have never been trained by or with a true GM. I know most of the people in these post ,and darn well know that they were taught the proper protical and respect.
Go back folks and remember He taught us off the mat also. 

B Qui


----------



## Archangel M

MJS said:


> Just so I'm getting this right here....are you saying that just because someone has a high rank, that their word should be good enough to vouch for someone else? Sorry, but if thats what you're saying, I disagree. Yes, Dan went in front of some Soke panel, etc., but if nobody on the board had an Arnis rank, their opinion is moot. I don't care if 30 10th dans were sitting there...if not one of them had Arnis background, their opinion means nothing. Thats like me, a 3rd in Kenpo, sitting on a TKD test board. What the hell do I know about TKD? Nothing! Sure, a kick is a kick, but I don't know the kata, the SD, etc. If you're going for rank in Arnis, the ENTIRE panel needs to be Arnis, not 2 or 3 out of the 10 sitting there. I tested in the beginning of this year for my black in Arnis. Every single person on the board was an Arnis black belt.
> 
> But like I said, in the end, I know what I do, and I know what others do. Does it concern me? Technically no, because I test in front of people who are doing my art. But, it gives a bit of a bad mark to the art as a whole. People see soemthing and they assume that everyone is like that. People will assume that an Arnis rank test is done in front of a soke board.


 
Well, I meant of higher rank in your direct lineage, but to be truthful Im just throwing ideas out there and trying to get a handle on this issue as Ive never really cared about it or thought about it.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

bobquinn said:


> Folks,
> You are all getting it wrong!
> It's all about respect and I have yet to see in these post the respect for those that are our elders. It is obvious that the apple has not fell from the tree. Some may have never been trained by or with a true GM. I know most of the people in these post ,and darn well know that they were taught the proper protical and respect.
> Go back folks and remember He taught us off the mat also.
> 
> B Qui


Bob,
  I don't need to see fancy titles to respect someone. Of course, I got hammered because I held a door open for an old man once because some people think he should be treated like dirt for making some controvercial claims. I think theres a couple issues here, but rspect isn't one of them. I haven't seen anyone say that all those mentioned/referred to were dirt, just that they could have used a different title than to assume one from Japan. Dan's being recognized by some board of people I don't know means less to me than the fact that last time I saw him, he took some time and gave me some tips and tales and was a pretty nice guy to chat with, and he was on the mats not sitting on the sidelines at the camp.  I disagree with some of what Dan does, I'm sure it's mutual, but that's ok. We still respect each other to do so and remain on good terms.


----------



## bobquinn

Bob,
Thank you the dialog.
I, in no way refered to anyone as dirt and not referanced anyone with personel disrespect. The bottom line is this the names that have been mentioned have done more to promote the arts and the depth of what it is to be a Martial Artist and not a Partial Artist. My hat is off to the likes of Tim. H, Dan. A, and Bram. F, having to know all of them for many years and seen first hand the respect they show to all levels of artist. My true intent was to speak of my own knowledge of these true masters!
Again, thank you for your continue dialog. You Bob have kept to remind us, through your communications, that we must remain open minded.

Bob Quinn


----------



## MJS

Archangel M said:


> Well, I meant of higher rank in your direct lineage, but to be truthful Im just throwing ideas out there and trying to get a handle on this issue as Ive never really cared about it or thought about it.


 
Well, in that case, I would agree then.


----------



## Archangel M

MJS said:


> Well, in that case, I would agree then.


 
No problem 

Im also starting to wonder if this GM title is even necessary. According to that wiki page, most eastern schools dont make a big deal out of it. Whats the big deal here ?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Archangel M said:


> No problem
> 
> Im also starting to wonder if this GM title is even necessary. According to that wiki page, most eastern schools dont make a big deal out of it. Whats the big deal here ?


Ego and Marketing.


----------



## bobquinn

Bob H,
See the doors of comunication you have opened!
I'm not kissing up, I'm just speaking the truth!
We are making a great headway!

Bob Q


----------



## MJS

bobquinn said:


> Folks,
> You are all getting it wrong!
> It's all about respect and I have yet to see in these post the respect for those that are our elders. It is obvious that the apple has not fell from the tree. Some may have never been trained by or with a true GM. I know most of the people in these post ,and darn well know that they were taught the proper protical and respect.
> Go back folks and remember He taught us off the mat also.
> 
> B Qui


 
Just so I'm reading this right...you're saying that regardless of someones actions, respect should still be given?  not so sure I agree with that fully.  Let me explain.  I respect alot of people.  I respect what many have done for the arts.  But, you start to lose that respect when people start doing things that are not on the up and up.  It makes the person look bad, it makes the art look bad and it makes the students of the art look bad.  

And BTW, while I may not have trained much with Prof. Presas, my teacher Brian Zawilinski has.  He's taught me quite a bit, and I thank God that I'm fortunate to have someone like him, practically in my backyard.  

Mike


----------



## bobquinn

Mike,
Now you have done it, brought in another name. No where in any post has anyone mentioned Brian Z. On the other hand,of course if some has done or is doing something that you yourself know to be "not on the up and up" then of course you should speak your mind. I know how I was raised and would not in anyway speak low of anyone . Step on my foot and I will not tell you that you are stepping on my foot. You have a great teacher in Brian Z. and having known him many years ago continue to respect him.

Bob Q


----------



## MJS

bobquinn said:


> Mike,
> Now you have done it, brought in another name. No where in any post has anyone mentioned Brian Z.


 
Hey Bob,

Yes, you are correct.  I was the person who mentioned Brians name.  I did that in response to this:


"Some may have never been trained by or with a true GM. I know most of the people in these post ,and darn well know that they were taught the proper protical and respect.
Go back folks and remember He taught us off the mat also."

I got the impression and perhaps it was the wrong one..as you know, misunderstandings happen all the time on the net.   Anyways...I got the impression that you were saying that if one had never trained under a GM, then the respect issue would not be learned.  I mentioned Brian, because he's spent much more time than I under a GM, and during my many lessons with Brian, I've learned a great deal, both about his ideas and values and alot about the Prof.  Like I said, I do my best to treat everyone with respect, although you may think that my posts don't reflect that.  





> On the other hand,of course if some has done or is doing something that you yourself know to be "not on the up and up" then of course you should speak your mind.


 
Thats why I'm posting on this thread...to speak my mind.   But then I get the impression that others don't think I'm being respectful.  Maybe its a misunderstanding. 



> I know how I was raised and would not in anyway speak low of anyone . Step on my foot and I will not tell you that you are stepping on my foot. You have a great teacher in Brian Z. and having known him many years ago continue to respect him.
> 
> Bob Q


 
I'll tell him you were asking for him next time I see him.


----------



## bobquinn

Mike,
something just happened,
Read closing your last post! You my new freind(hopefully)hit it right on. Brian Z. as did many folks train under  a GM. Now the baton is being passed. I hope we can start to look at it that way. I appoligize if you mistook what I said. You are now training under a master. That's the way it is!

Bob Quinn


----------



## arnisador

The Last Legionary said:


> A brain surgeon is not qualified to judge a dentist, yet both are medical doctors.



Eh, not here in the U.S.



Dan Anderson said:


> 1.  The name of the group is Soke.  You are being awfully literal and not conceptual.  There ARE a number of japanese and Okinawan stylists on the board, btw.



_Soke _is Japanese, from the time before the Ryukyuan kingdom was assimilated into it. One doesn't really have Okinawan _soke_s.



MJS said:


> Thats like me, a 3rd in Kenpo, sitting on a TKD test board.  What the hell do I know about TKD?  Nothing!  Sure, a kick is a kick, but I don't know the kata, the SD, etc.



I'd go further than this. I know the TKDers have particular ways of thrusting their hip and holding their foot and such during various kicks, and their sine wave, etc., that are different from what's done in other arts. You could see a great side kick but not know whether or not it's a great or even good TKD-style kick. (Certainly I wouldn't know.) I imagine a duplicitous savateur could trick me into believing he was doing TKD if he wanted to do so.

On the other hand, most of us would probably agree on who is very good and who isn't, so if that's all that's being done, that's different. Even then there are exceptions. Parts of Tai Chi and iaido are done very slowly. I could imagine someone misjudging those aspects of the systems.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The Game said:
			
		

> Paul Martin. ...... Wanted to beat up an accident victim? *checks notes* Yup.



I missed the above comment earlier.
A clarification here, as this references me, abet rather obscurely, and I prefer to have things clear and fair where possible. Paul and I were going to have a friendly exchange, a little training, a little sparring, what have you. Due to a personal medical matter and the advice of my doctors and lawyers I had to withdraw. It's not fair to Paul to paint him as a bully, when IMHO that wasn't the intent of what he and I had discussed and he is not here to defend himself against such allegations. I'd appreciate it if such comments are avoided in the future.




			
				Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> 1. The name of the group is Soke. You are being awfully literal and not conceptual. There ARE a number of japanese and Okinawan stylists on the board, btw.



My reply to this, as I am a purist would be that studying Latin doesn't make me a Roman. Why would studying a Japanese art entitle me to a Japanese Cultural title?

Let me quote William M. Bodiford's excellent article on the topic "Soke: Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements"


> Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. *Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster.*"



Personally, I think fromm here on out, I'll just ignore that particullar issue. I mean, in all seriousness, given the choice of arguing on the internet or being on the beach taking photos of girls in bikinis, I know what I'll enjoy more.


----------



## Archangel M

Bob Hubbard said:


> My reply to this, as I am a purist would be that studying Latin doesn't make me a Roman. Why would studying a Japanese art entitle me to a Japanese Cultural title?


 

Why then should any westerner be able to take a foreign title simply because he takes a foreign art? I wouldnt just stop at soke. This rank and title stuff has almost taken the place of practice and skill.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

If it's applicable to that art, and the art is still pretty close to culturally authentic, I'm fine with it. But don't mix n match bits of arts and start calling yourself sifu or soke or sensei. Crazy combo I saw once was an Asian, teaching brazillian and french arts, wanting to be called Guro.  He wasn't Filipino. Master/Grandmaster work fine, avoid the mystical-marketing-mumbo/jumbo and are devoid of any cultural misrepresentations. 
Who's the higher rank: grandmaster, great grandmaster, soke, soke-dai, supreme grandmaster, grand tuhan, or grand buffet?


----------



## Archangel M

Do any of the people in this "soke council" take the title "soke"? Or do they bestow the title on people? Or is it just what they named their organization?


----------



## MJS

Admin Note:

You will notice that these posts have been split from the MA-80 thread.  The posts that are here are ones that were on the subject of Soke Boards.  For those that are interested, this discussion can resume here.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin


----------



## The Last Legionary

Archangel M said:


> Do any of the people in this "soke council" take the title "soke"? Or do they bestow the title on people? Or is it just what they named their organization?


Good question.


----------



## The Last Legionary

The Last Legionary said:


> Good question.


I did see a few FMA Sokes on Youtube. Sucked Donkey big time. Seemed to be the popular opinion of them too.


----------



## Dan Anderson

LL,

Awfully broad statement.  A. Could you be specific as to who you saw and B. It's time for you to pony up and actually state your name, experience, and so on in specific detail (your user ID info is so broad that it really says nothing).  Otherwise these criticisms are invalid based on unsubstantiated ability or knowledge base to judge or critique fairly.  Sorry, bud.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dan Anderson

Archangel M said:


> *1.*Do any of the people in this "soke council" take the title "soke"?
> *2.*Or do they bestow the title on people?
> *3.*Or is it just what they named their organization?


 
Hi Archangel,

1. Don't know.
2. No. They don't bestow that title on people (nor the title Grand Master for that matter).
3. It is what they named their organization. I know some people have problems with the name "Soke" but the usage of that name is as valid as aonyone who uses the term "karate" and is not of direct Japanese or Okinawan lineage. The USA has taken many arts and modified them tot he degree that they are not what they were in the homeland. That is a pure and simple fact. The only difference is that karate is a generic term by now and Soke isn't. It is, _I believe_, the conceptual usage of Soke and not the literal meaning that that council goes by. 

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## tellner

Dan, 

I've read through the thread and still just don't get it.

Your accomplishments speak for themselves. You've got enough black belts to outfit a mens' clothing store, and you've turned out dozens of instructors who are a credit to your reputation. The last time I met you was a long time ago. You seemed to have a healthy sense of of self esteem, not the weak ego or damaged personality that demands this sort of grotesque ornament.

If you want to say "This is how I've put together all the things I've learned over the years. I'll call it The Anderson System of Martial Arts" nobody would think twice. You've got serious chops and a hard-earned reputation. People with a lot less have claimed a lot more without anyone raising an eyebrow. I don't know about the internal politics of the groups you've studied with, but all the grownups here know how that goes. And they know that skill and knowledge don't go away when people have a falling out. 

You know the sort of reputation these "Soke Boards" have. I haven't seen anyone gain anything from them except an unworthy ego boost and a thinner wallet. Their pat on the back isn't going to make you or your students any better. And you can already see the hit you're taking just from the reactions here. It's as if a guy with a Masters, an MBA, and a law degree suddenly said "I just bought a diploma from Huckster College. You can all call me Doctor."

Even a good once over looks pretty ugly. "Soke" has a specific meaning in Japan. When a bunch of people from outside the culture apply it outside of the culture and compliment each other on how good the title looks on them it's worse than ignorant. It's undignified.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Dan Anderson said:


> LL,
> 
> Awfully broad statement. A. Could you be specific as to who you saw and B. It's time for you to pony up and actually state your name, experience, and so on in specific detail (your user ID info is so broad that it really says nothing). Otherwise these criticisms are invalid based on unsubstantiated ability or knowledge base to judge or critique fairly. Sorry, bud.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
A - No, as doing so might violate this sites Fraud Busting policies. You may goto Google and search yourself. There are threads about FMA sokedokes on some FMA sites where they were quite a bit more brutal in their evaluation of the batton twirling and speed wiggling that they saw than even I could be.

B - I currently train in the European arts.  I tend to kick people alot. I also spend serious time swinging a Gladius (Mainz style is my preferred blade). Someone who is a Senior Master, a Grandmaster of 2 different systems, as well as a professor should be able to identify the arts easily I think. 

C - I don't have to know your systems to identify quality or ********. I've been training and studying long enough to know the good from the bad. That is the same reasoning low esteem types use to justify promotions and awards from people outside their own arts. 

- Keil


----------



## Perpetual White Belt

The Last Legionary said:


> C - I don't have to know your systems to identify quality or ********. I've been training and studying long enough to know the good from the bad. That is the same reasoning low esteem types use to justify promotions and awards from people outside their own arts.
> 
> - Keil


 
Are you saying that Dan and Tim are "low esteem types"?  Cuz in general low esteem types don't do what these guys do putting themselves out there in an effort to spread their arts.  Low self esteem types usually do things like bash others on an internet forum.


----------



## bobquinn

Add to last post. We seem to know alot about Dan And Tim and less about those that are putting them down. 

Bo Q
ROTU


----------



## The Last Legionary

Perpetual White Belt said:


> Are you saying that Dan and Tim are "low esteem types"? Cuz in general low esteem types don't do what these guys do putting themselves out there in an effort to spread their arts. Low self esteem types usually do things like bash others on an internet forum.


 
How many high ranks is it humanly possible for one person in one lifetime to honestly obtain? Again, I will not name names, however, search around and see the "Soke's" who have more dans than a phonebook. The "Supermen" who's list of ranks scroll on and on and on. Then tell me, do they actually have that level of knowledge of all those systems?

Or is it just marketing fluff resume padding to fool the nieve karate-mom?

Is Dan a better martial artist because he went before this resume padding board? Is Tim a more knowledable martial artist because Ernesto and Gyi gave him certificates?  Does any of the extra paperwork suddenly push a button and turn them into better people than they were 24 hours prior? I think not!

The only reason for all the padding is to pad your resume and make you look more spectacular to those who don't know any better.




bobquinn said:


> Add to last post. We seem to know alot about Dan And Tim and less about those that are putting them down.
> 
> Bo Q
> ROTU


 
I posted my information here repeatedly. I'm sorry if it's not acceptable to some, but I am under no rule requirement here to put up easily traced information so that I or mine could be harassed offline.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

TLL is right. There is no requirement to post said information publicly. 

As to his other points, I asked a long time ago, never got a reall answer.
Who is the better martial artist?
1st dan Karate, 1st Modern Arnis, 1st Hung Gar, 1st Wing Chun, 1st EPAK, etc?

I'll expand, for the sake of argument here.
Dan Anderson has rank/certification in Modern Arnis, Karate, MA80 and Bram Franks system which I don't recall the name of at the moment.
Tim Hartman has rank/certification in Modern Arnis, Kombatan, Balintawak and Bando.
Who's the better martial artist?
Dan's written more books, maybe that's what counts.
Wait, Tim does more seminars, maybe that's the winner?
Dan has a GM title recognized by some of his peers, but so does Tim. Hmm.....
Well we could go on numerical ranks, but which is higher, a 9th in Kombatan, a 9th in Modern Arnis, a 9th in MA80? 
We could count years in, but do we then subtract from Dans quiet period, or give him partial credit?
Do we count black belts produced, or size of organizations?

Or do we simply accept that they both are good, and one may be better than the other for what we are looking for, on any particular day?

Personally, I think they are both good, and I've seen both better and worse than them at seminars and in class. Some things, Dan's the man, others, it's Tim, for others it's both, and sometimes, it's neither. Their numerical ranks, titles, and paper mean less to me today than knowing who they are, and what they can do.  Anyone can have paper that calls them Master.  Few of them actually can live up to that claim. Dan and Tim can. IMHO.

I said sometime ago, somewhere, in a hut or cave is a damn good martial artist, who could fight and teach rings around everyone I know of, but no one knows of him as he's content in his quiet life. 

Take it all for what it is. Back to my pre nap, nap now.


----------



## The Game

My head hurts. Too many big words. Want hit with stick. Grrrr.
:rofl:

I don't think anyone who knows Tim will say he has low self esteem.
:rofl:

As to soke's, it's not an Fillipino title, nor is it an American title. Only an absolute ignorant *** would claim it as such because "America's a melting pot" or like I heard once, that it was ok because a lineage ran back far enough to where it included a Japanese art. 

Someone wants to claim to be a Soke, or a Duke or whatever fancy smancy title floats their canoe, hey, whatever. Someone wants to claim it's ok because someone else who claimed a title laid hands on them or blew some sacred smoke from the generic yellow pack on them, hey, whatever.

Here's the typical Soke showing off his rank.


----------



## The Game

bobquinn said:


> Add to last post. We seem to know alot about Dan And Tim and less about those that are putting them down.
> 
> Bo Q
> ROTU


Tim's biggest critics have been banned from here because they couldn't stop making everything a sling or arrow aimed at him or playing games with fake accounts here. That whole "obsesed and in need of therapy thing". They now play on their own small time list where most topics always come back to some form of complaining or whining about him.
They include a small time professor who runs an fma gym class, a small town teacher who runs a collage club, a small town cop, and a smaller still Navy desk jockey who's had a hard on for Hartman for over a decade. You can add to that mix a convicted traitor who was busted for attempting to sell secrets to the KGB. Oh and a bunch of other "people" that only exist to promote their stuff and talk crap about Tim. Hubbard called them "Sock Puppets", but they aint no lamb chops to me.  But they aren't anyone important really, which I think frustrates them quite a bit.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The Game said:


> Tim's biggest critics have been banned from here because they couldn't stop making everything a sling or arrow aimed at him or playing games with fake accounts here. That whole "obsesed and in need of therapy thing". They now play on their own small time list where most topics always come back to some form of complaining or whining about him.
> They include a small time professor who runs an fma gym class, a small town teacher who runs a collage club, a small town cop, and a smaller still Navy desk jockey who's had a hard on for Hartman for over a decade. You can add to that mix a convicted traitor who was busted for attempting to sell secrets to the KGB. Oh and a bunch of other "people" that only exist to promote their stuff and talk crap about Tim. Hubbard called them "Sock Puppets", but they aint no lamb chops to me.  But they aren't anyone important really, which I think frustrates them quite a bit.


Ya know....this crap isn't what we're here for. What others discuss elsewhere is their business. Those guys aren't here and haven't been here for a while, so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop bringing them up. Thanks.


----------



## Archangel M

While I dont want to encourage the direction this thread is going, what makes someone "important" anyway? Is that what this rank issue is about at its core? Importance?

If it is thats just sad. For those seeking rank and for those wasting their lives worrying about who has it.


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> A - No, as doing so might violate this sites Fraud Busting policies. You may goto Google and search yourself. There are threads about FMA sokedokes on some FMA sites where they were quite a bit more brutal in their evaluation of the batton twirling and speed wiggling that they saw than even I could be.
> 
> B - I currently train in the European arts. I tend to kick people alot. I also spend serious time swinging a Gladius (Mainz style is my preferred blade). Someone who is a Senior Master, a Grandmaster of 2 different systems, as well as a professor should be able to identify the arts easily I think.
> 
> C - I don't have to know your systems to identify quality or ********. I've been training and studying long enough to know the good from the bad. That is the same reasoning low esteem types use to justify promotions and awards from people outside their own arts.
> 
> - Keil


Keil,

Well, a first name is a start, anyway.  Sorry, [A] is a cop out.  * is very lacking in substance.  Keil who?  Trained with who and for how long?  How old are you?  All my data is up on the web for anyone to see.  Your first name is up and the rest is elephant talk unless your provide more.  [C] is the unsubstantiated blathering you like to accuse us of.

If you have a question that is a query requesting information so as to heighten understanding, I'll answer any question you have.  If you are questioning as in challenging, no more replies until you pony up with some hard, verifiable facts.  Otherwise you are just resembling the Human Torch - "Flame On!"

Yours,
Dan Anderson*


----------



## Dan Anderson

tellner said:


> Dan,
> 
> I've read through the thread and still just don't get it.


Tellner,

Now that was asking for information rather than a flame!  PM me or email me through my website www.danandersonkarate.com and I'll answer all your questions.  

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Dan,
  He's right on the fraud busting claim, as are his comments that we don't require he ID any more than he did.  Regarding Keil's ID, he stated this elsewhere so it's not a privacy violation. His name is in his profile, and he was on here back in 2001 as staff.

Regarding links, most won't do much good as they are for a site known for it's fraud busting that we won't allow links to.

Also, asking someone to PM/email you to answer could be a rules violation thingy. Why not just put it all out publicly?


----------



## Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard said:


> Dan,
> *1. *He's right on the fraud busting claim, as are his comments that we don't require he ID any more than he did. Regarding Keil's ID, he stated this elsewhere so it's not a privacy violation. His name is in his profile, and he was on here back in 2001 as staff. Regarding links, most won't do much good as they are for a site known for it's fraud busting that we won't allow links to.
> 
> *2. *Also, asking someone to PM/email you to answer could be a rules violation thingy. Why not just put it all out publicly?


 
Hi Bob,

1. Fair enough.
2. Because if anyone cares to really read what I have read, I have explained myself. Someone who has an inquiry deserves an answer. The game of parry and thrust with someone who won't listen or wants to continue to misduplicate is getting very old so now it's time to go personal Q&A.

That _he was on here back in 2001 as staff..._ Hmmm.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Perpetual White Belt

Considering how close the GM Ernesto's and GM Remy's style are it's entirely possible that the ranks could be given at those levels.  Many of the basics are the same.  The same could be said of Gyi's certification.  I'm sure Mr Hartman as a little more than a basic understanding of martial arts, so it's entirely possible that there too he could have skipped the basic levels so to speak and started working on the more advanced priciples to earn a higher level "faster" than most.  As far as his self promotion goes.  He did that to give his students room to grow with-in his orginization, and when it comes down to it that's all the belt number matters.  His skill level is what matters outside of that, so he could be a white belt for all I care as long as he could teach me something and can get the message across.  If you want to say that is a marketing tool to draw in the students I can prove you wrong there.  The highest rank I've achieved is 3rd in Karate, but I advertise with my 1st in Senkotiros and I've been slowly but surely putting up better numbers in my classes than they guy down the street with his 9th degree in karate.


----------



## Morgan

Perpetual White Belt said:


> Considering how close the GM Ernesto's and GM Remy's style are it's entirely possible that the ranks could be given at those levels. Many of the basics are the same. The same could be said of Gyi's certification. I'm sure Mr Hartman as a little more than a basic understanding of martial arts, so it's entirely possible that there too he could have skipped the basic levels so to speak and started working on the more advanced priciples to earn a higher level "faster" than most. As far as his self promotion goes. He did that to give his students room to grow with-in his orginization, and when it comes down to it that's all the belt number matters. His skill level is what matters outside of that, so he could be a white belt for all I care as long as he could teach me something and can get the message across. If you want to say that is a marketing tool to draw in the students I can prove you wrong there. The highest rank I've achieved is 3rd in Karate, but I advertise with my 1st in Senkotiros and I've been slowly but surely putting up better numbers in my classes than they guy down the street with his 9th degree in karate.


 
Just how close are the systems of Professor Presas and his brother GM Ernesto?

Are not the basics fairly close to some other systems of arnis, such as 
balintawak, LaCoste and San Migel?

Morgan


----------



## arnisador

The brothers' arts have a great deal in common, but Balintawak is a large influence on Remy Presas' system only. I don't think there's really a connection to the LaCoste and San Miguel systems for eitehr of the brothers' arts..


----------



## The Game

Morgan said:


> Just how close are the systems of Professor Presas and his brother GM Ernesto?
> 
> Are not the basics fairly close to some other systems of arnis, such as
> balintawak, LaCoste and San Migel?
> 
> Morgan


Wouldn't that be a good question to ask your instructor?


----------



## The Game

The Game said:


> Wouldn't that be a good question to ask your instructor?


Seems the opinion of the peeps at FMATalk is that there's really no place in FMA for Sokes and Soke Boards.


----------



## arnisador

The Game said:


> Seems the opinion of the peeps at FMATalk is that there's really no place in FMA for Sokes and Soke Boards.



_Soke _is just a JMA thing! It's too tied to the culture. The Filipino approach is so much less formal.


----------



## The Game

But wouldn't it be ok if you mixed you FMA with a little Kenpo?


----------



## arnisador

Kenpo is a broad term, and there is even a form of iaido known as _kenpo_; but the best-known type, American Kenpo, isn't Japanese. It's more derived from Southern Chinese kung fu.


----------



## The Last Legionary

My position's been that there is no place in the FMA for "Sokes".  I see no reason to change that opinion.


----------



## bobquinn

That is the greatest thing about MT. It alows for oppions to be brought out and people to speak their minds.

Bob Q
official title
R O T U


----------



## The Game

Wait.  I have a mind? Please, don't tell my wife. She said I'm not allowed to have one of my own.


----------



## bobquinn

Your secret is safe here! No mind No matter!

Bob Q
ROTU


----------



## stickarts

Dan Anderson said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Back in Dallas. The event went well and the testing for induction onto the council went even better. It took roughly an hour and was split up into two parts: oral and physical. Any of you who know me will know I have no problems being shy explaining any point of view that I have: technical, philosophical, historical or what not. The physical presentation I felt went very well. I was prepared mentally, was quite confident and I believe it showed.
> 
> My thanks to my partner from Dallas, Don Kerstetter and my CSSD/SC brother Shuki Dray from Florida. Don began training wth RP back in 1983 and is originally from Tennessee (for those of you old camp guys to remember him) and now trains with me. Shuki is Bram Frank's longest continuously training student dating back to... I forget when but he's been around Bram the longest and has the best historical perspective of Bram's knife work. They were not only quite willing to participate in it with me but neither of them are direct students of mine so they moved differently enough to keep me on my toes and in present to shift gears when they did something off beat. I like when that happens. Good stuff.
> 
> Aside from the induction onto the council I, along with the amazing Don Jacobs from Trinidad (see this guy if you can - amazing), I was also presented with the Grand Master of the Year 2008 award. This was totally unexpected and was very kind that Bram nominated me for it.
> 
> So, in the long run what does this mean to me? Acknowledgement. One thing that is so underrated is the power of a simple acknowledgement. This is something I learned in my Scientology training many years ago. A couple of examples of acknowledgements: I remember at the first WMAA camp, Jeff Leader mentioning in passing that he liked the fact that I was out there on the floor training along with eveyone else (the lower ranking belts) and that meant a lot. The same comment was made by a number of people when I was in the Philippines where _I _was an instructor for _my own_ classes. I was till out there training in other people's classes. Both of them were acknowledgements of an action taken. Rather than looking into them for any kind of hidden meanings or motives it was just a statement noting what was done. "Hey, you wuz on do floor and sweated, too."
> 
> Another great acknowledgment was being accepted by Manong Ted Buot as a student. He recognized that I was being sincere in my desire to learn balintawak eskrima. Acknowledgements are powerful things.
> 
> This is what this examination was to me. I have been in the martial arts for 41 years. My credentials are pretty strong - both in karate and arnis. I have nothing _to prove_ to anybody. But rather than have that as a _"you can kiss my ***"_ attitude, I fully recognize that I have a long way to go. I think a skilled practitioner knows not only his strong points but also knows his limitations. He keeps his strong points well oiled and his limitations gives him something to continue to work on. I also keep in mind that I have seniors. There are people out there who have been in the martial arts longer than I have and some longer than I have been alive. To receive an acknowledgement like this from my seniors is special.
> 
> All in all, it has been a very good weekend and when I get home I'll catch up on the sleep I've missed.
> 
> I'll post some pictures when I get them from Shuki. All for now.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Congrats Dan! Glad it was a good experience for you. I have been away for awhile: sorry for coming into this discussion late.


----------



## Dan Anderson

stickarts said:


> Congrats Dan! Glad it was a good experience for you. I have been away for awhile: sorry for coming into this discussion late.


Thanks, Frank.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## hapkenkido

so the term soke is only for JMA?


----------



## hapkenkido

SM Anderson,
 Let me say congrats for being inducted into that Soke board. 
 I was very honored that I had peers from different arts sit on my 3rd and 4 dan testing board, and to have them say that I should be promoted. Now, I know it wasn't a test for rank for you. But maybe someone can tell me what is wrong with the whole idea of the board. For I am just a todler in the arts compaired to some of the people on MT.


----------



## hapkenkido

SM Anderson
plus cant wait to get to train with you in atlanta. 2 more days


----------



## Bob Hubbard

hapkenkido said:


> SM Anderson,
> Let me say congrats for being inducted into that Soke board.
> I was very honored that I had peers from different arts sit on my 3rd and 4 dan testing board, and to have them say that I should be promoted. Now, I know it wasn't a test for rank for you. But maybe someone can tell me what is wrong with the whole idea of the board. For I am just a todler in the arts compaired to some of the people on MT.


The short answer is, "Soke" is a Japanese term, doesn't actually mean what alot of people say it does, and tends to indicate someone who bought some rank just as often as someone who actually earned it. Some JMA people and traditionalists find it a "problematic" term.  Some will argue that it's original meaning doesn't matter, but what it's being used for now. All I can say to that is that I dramily wrangle that they gibblet the cola nut. 

You can also check out the "Great Debate" forum for some of the longer and ah more passionate, threads involving "sokes".

Course, there's no one higher than  God-Emperor.  Just ask Leto II.


----------



## Perpetual White Belt

Bob Hubbard said:


> All I can say to that is that I dramily wrangle that they gibblet the cola nut.


 
I agree! :ultracool


----------



## The Last Legionary

Bob Hubbard said:


> The short answer is, "Soke" is a Japanese term, doesn't actually mean what alot of people say it does, and tends to indicate someone who bought some rank just as often as someone who actually earned it. Some JMA people and traditionalists find it a "problematic" term.  Some will argue that it's original meaning doesn't matter, but what it's being used for now. All I can say to that is that I dramily wrangle that they gibblet the cola nut.
> 
> You can also check out the "Great Debate" forum for some of the longer and ah more passionate, threads involving "sokes".
> 
> Course, there's no one higher than  God-Emperor.  Just ask Leto II.


You stop touching my cola nut. BAD TOUCH! BAD TOUCH!
Stop giggling too. I saw your soke certificate egg roll.


----------



## tshadowchaser

> But maybe someone can tell me what is wrong with the whole idea of the board. For I am just a todler in the arts compaired to some of the people on MT.


 
Hapkenkido, read my post here, as it also concerns soke boards

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1004151&postcount=44

sheldon


----------

