# Athenic vs Spartan



## Touch Of Death (Jul 22, 2003)

Hi everyone,
I read a book a year or three ago which I think many of you might find interesting. The book is called "Cryptonomicon" by Niel Stephenson. It is a story about the people whom actualy surmised the warcraft of WWII, or at least the egg heads that were thrust into playing field simply because they were the only people alive that could play the game. The story also goes into a post WWII treasure hunt, but the part I found most interesting was the ideas about the mentality of the governments and or people in general. An example would be Spartan or Athenian; Another way of saying this would be forward thinking or backward thinking. There is a danger in both methods of thought. The Spartans were all killed in glorious battle which they all felt was a fitting ending but maybe there was a better way. The Athenians were welcomed any change that would make them better off and were not afraid to craft alternatives to blique situations. I feel Mr. Parkers death has put us in this situation again all be it on a smaller scale.  Please read the book if you get a chance but if you think you get the gist of what I am talking about, answer one question. Do you feel you have a Spartan or Athenian view of Kenpo? Why?


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 22, 2003)

Athenians:  Philisophical, thoughtful, artistic
Spartans:  Competitive, simple, unadorned.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 22, 2003)

Athenians:  Philisophical, thoughtful, artistic
Spartans:  Competitive, simple, unadorned.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 22, 2003)

Neither.


----------



## Blindside (Jul 23, 2003)

I think you need more research into the cultures of Sparta and Athens.  If you choose to use fictional books as a source of historical cultures try "Gates of Fire" or "Tides of War" by Steven Pressfield.  They aren't historically accurate either, but at least they give you a better feel for the cultures than what you have presented here.

Lamont


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 23, 2003)

Lamont, 
within this fictional book are non-fictional thesis' on the subject so your automatic rejection of what I have suggested in favor of what you already know suggests to me an almost Spartan backward thinking knee jerk reaction. Besides I havn't gone in to any detail on either concept; so, why again I say do you reject a concept you have not made your self the least bit familiar with?

Robert,
I you are both, as I suppose we all are.


----------



## Sigung86 (Jul 23, 2003)

Maybe because it isn't a very good book?


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 23, 2003)

Actually, no. I completely reject these ideas of division into absolute "intellectuals," and absolute, "warriors," which by the way these two societies weren't. 

The Athenians weren't democratic, not in our sense, either. And the Spartans apparently weren't exactly what we'd call, "straight." Nor were the Athenians...read the "Symposium."

And both societies lorded it over women, and kept slaves. 

It's another of those binary oppositions, and it doesn't reflect the reality of history. Nor does dividing kenpo up this way...

I'm wit' Sigung 86...pick better books. Stephenson's rather derivative--see Jim Dodge, "Cadillac Mountain," Thos. Pynchon, "V.," and "Gravity's Rainbow..."

And, by the way, I also really dislike the term, "warrior," in the martial arts...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Maybe because it isn't a very good book?  *


Hey, 
Great review of that book you have not read. You really seem to have an insight. Was it the name? Do the Police use you to help find the missing?


----------



## Kirk (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Hey,
> Great review of that book you have not read. You really seem to have an insight. Was it the name? Do the Police use you to help find the missing? *



Interesting .. I'm trying to find the post where he said he didn't
read it, but I can't find it    Perhaps the police use *you*?


----------



## Sigung86 (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Hey,
> Great review of that book you have not read. You really seem to have an insight. Was it the name? Do the Police use you to help find the missing? *



Once again Touch, you are coming across in a rather lame manner.  (Oh, why am I not surprised)?  It is not wise to put your hallucinations of behavior and activity on other people.  You will come up very wrong more often than not.  You will come across, as you have managed to do, yet again ... Woefully short on insight.   To succinctly put it another way ... To assume is to make an *** out of U.

I realize that no one likes to have their "good" taste questioned, but, in reality, it just so happens that I have read the book, and didn't really think that much of it.  However, as it was recommended to me by a friend, whom by action and presentation,  I hallucinate is much smarter than you, who is currently working on a Doctorate in anthropolical anatomy and reconstruction ... That's right TOD ... Can you say scientist?  I did give it a fair run, cover-to-cover, to be sure.  It just wasn't a very good book.  And when I told her that I didn't care for it and why, she assumed that I might have a fair idea of what I am talking about, and am capable of making decisions about what I like and do not like without being a war-like or moronic on her part.

On the other hand, the book probably is good for people who are, or believe they are, tucked into the modern digital society or are wannabes.  It is probably escapist for people who haven't had much excitement, or mental stimulation outside of their Kenpo school ... But see?  There I go putting my paradigm on you, based on my reaction to your initial, woefully inadequate, guessing game, and chronic bellicose, confrontational manner.

I don't know anything about you other than you hate to be disagreed with.  You immediately seem to have to fight with whomsoever has offended your delicate sensibilities; And that, fortunately, happens very often to you, and is something I assume you will either have to learn to get along with eventually, or go through life being disagreeable from the backside of your keyboard, and learning nothing of any value ... And therein lies the issue... I hallucinate to be one of PEBCAK... Problem Exists Between Chair and Keyboard.

You are very much like the man who is standing in a small village in Mexico, yelling at the top of your lungs, "Where is El Bathroomo", and wondering why people don't respond to you.  When it might, in fact, be worth your while to learn a bit of the language, and the thought and reasoning behind it... I suspect you would find that if you spoke the language a bit, and approached the natives in a more ammenable manner, they might respond in a little less irritated fashion, and point you to the bathroom.  

You see... There I go again, putting my hallucination of a human being on you, and assuming that you might like to interact with people in a reasonably mature, human, fashion.

I would suggest some really great reading to you, but I'm afraid you would simply poo-poo it, so I will leave you to your own literary devices, or leave you with Doctor Bobs really fine recommendations.

As Doc Chapél would say ...

Don't be haten        To which I would add:

Live and learn or end up being alone inyour puddle of inanity.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Once again Touch, you are coming across in a rather lame manner.  (Oh why am I not surprised)?  It is not wise to put your hallucinations of behavior and activity on other people.  You will come up very wrong more often than not.  You will come across, as you have managed to do yet again ... Woefully short on insight.   To succinctly put it another way ... To assume is to make an *** out of U.
> 
> I realize that no one likes to have their "good" taste questioned, but, in reality, it just so happens that I have read it, and didn't really think that much of it.  However, as it was recommended to me by a friend, whom by action and presentation,  I hallucinate is much smarter than you, I did give it a fair run, cover-to-cover, to be sure.  It just wasn't a very good book.
> ...



Now this is a classic post, worthy of many awards, and I should be so lucky to plagiarize it at every oppurtunity LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Sigung86 (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Now this is a classic post, worthy of many awards, and I should be so lucky to plagiarize it at every oppurtunity LOL.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Clyde,

Sorry you read it before I got my editing all done...  Thanks very much for the compliment... However, I'm relatively certain that the object of the post will be lost on the intended recipient. :rofl: 

:asian: 

Have a Great Kenpo Day, my friend.

Dan


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Actually, no. I completely reject these ideas of division into absolute "intellectuals," and absolute, "warriors," which by the way these two societies weren't.
> 
> The Athenians weren't democratic, not in our sense, either. And the Spartans apparently weren't exactly what we'd call, "straight." Nor were the Athenians...read the "Symposium."
> ...


No body is defending the ancient greek morrays. I'm not suggesting the book should be made into a TV movie either. I am saying it lays out the basic pitfalls of liberal and conservative thinking in societies. More to the point I want to know if kenpoists are done seeking new information now that Mr. Parker is gone or are they just happy with the material he left for us. By the way Robert, the people of ancient greece did have ideals and there were liberal and conservative thinkers. I'm not deviding the art of kenpo, I'm deviding the practitioners, or rather, that devision is taking place with or with out my help.


----------



## jeffkyle (Jul 24, 2003)

WHERE IS EL BATHROOMO!!!  LOL!!!  :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 24, 2003)

Did some posts get deleted here?  I don't see what TOD said to cause the personal attack.  Why is it that so many people attack a person's intelligence when they hear a point with which they disagree?


----------



## Kirk (Jul 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Did some posts get deleted here?  I don't see what TOD said to cause the personal attack.  Why is it that so many people attack a person's intelligence when they hear a point with which they disagree? *




Did you not see this one??



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Hey,
> Great review of that book you have not read. You really seem to have an insight. Was it the name? Do the Police use you to help find the missing? *



Mr Farmer didn't like the book, and posted that opinion.  Then
TOD did exactly what you claim to not like so much .. attacked his
intelligence when he heard a point with which he disagreed.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 24, 2003)

OK, got it:  TOD:  shame on you.  The rest of you:  hug and be friends.  All of you:  You're all in a time-out!  Go sit in the corner.


----------



## Sigung86 (Jul 24, 2003)

Awwww  Daaaaad!  The Trash Heap started it!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 25, 2003)

Dear Sean:

No, they didn't. You are projecting nineteenth and twentieth-century values and political/intellectual binarisms onto the past in an act of what Freud would call, "retrospective reconstruction," (nachtraglichkeit, if I recollect correctly). The past is another country; they do things differently there.

The specific division of Greek "society" (there was no such thing, actually) that you advance is a product of Romantic revisionism, the same intellectual movement that talked about the "purity," of Greek statues from which all the bright paint had fallen off.

And, Pynchon is a way better writer. If that don't float yer boat, try Fritz Leiber, "Our Lady of Shadows." Or William Gibson, "Neuromancer."

I might also note that the impulse behind this interpretation seems to be to divide kenpo into two camps. I prefer the Marxist concept of, "praxis."


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 25, 2003)

This thread has now entered the gaseous phase of discourse.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 25, 2003)

Which is in this case a good thing.

More to the point, the problem lies in the insistence upon impsing simple binary oppositions upon complex structures. For example, the whole, "traditional," vs. "evolutionary," nonsense.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 25, 2003)

Robert,
The very gods they worshiped were one or the other for god sake. Athena was the goddess of warcraft while Aries was the god of war. Why two for the same thing? you might ask. Because one was traditional and the other evolutionary. It was two ways of veiwing the same thing. To deny that people and societies were of two minds on just about every subject is to deny human nature. Change is dangerous. Some fear it, some strive for it, weather you want to admit it, it was happenig then and it is happenig now. Stop trying to tell me the entire society thought only one way; because, I ain't buying it.

Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Did you not see this one??
> 
> 
> ...


Kirk,
Since you happen to be one of "those people" would you mind letting me in on when I ever spoke of Shadow boxing or called anything useless. You put it out there as fact, prove it. If you are not able to provide a single example that would be why you are one of "those people". The word "unusefull" doesn't count because they are, in fact, two different concepts. I'm waiting...
Sean


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 25, 2003)

"There are only two kinds of people in the world--those who think there are only two kinds of people in the world, and those who don't."

No, it is not as simple as the Athenians worshipped Athena, while the Spartans worshipped ol' Aries.

And even in yang and yin, if you look at the symbol, there's a little of the opposite in each.

Of course, there is the dialectical understanding of culture and historical development, but that's different.

Moreover--I say again--kenpo does not simply divide into trad and rad, however pleasing it might be for us to put overselves on one side or t'other.

The very term "radical," implies both a return to roots and a dissection of origins, coupled with sweeping change.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *"There are only two kinds of people in the world--those who think there are only two kinds of people in the world, and those who don't."
> 
> No, it is not as simple as the Athenians worshipped Athena, while the Spartans worshipped ol' Aries.
> ...


Are you forgetting the volkish ramblings of Hittler, The Shinto of Japan, or the Islamic fundamentalism of (you name it). These are examples of traditionalism with teeth. You know they teach this crap in school. I'm not saying we're not dealing in shades of grey but it is the idealism that starts wars. Now I suppose you will say the wars we fight are not idealistic. Please proceed; because, this ought to be good.


----------



## Kirk (Jul 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Kirk,
> Since you happen to be one of "those people" would you mind letting me in on when I ever spoke of Shadow boxing or called anything useless. *



Nah.



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *You put it out there as fact, prove it. *



Sure ... just as soon as you prove that techniques are just "rigid
patterns" that in no way teach sponteneity.  And that if they were
to teach such things, that it'd be "magic".  Or, that "the jab jab 
that "delayed sword" and "sword of destruction" teach are 
muddled by the machinations of kicking".  Or that Dan didn't read
the precious book?  



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *If you are not able to provide a single example that would be why you are one of "those people".*



I don't want to waste my time with you looking up the posts that
you use to troll on this (and other) board.   I may have lumped 
you in with the others that feel it's their mission to save kenpoists
from themselves, and try and talk them into studying MMA and
grappling, and ordinarily I'd apologize for lumping you in with
"those people" .. but ... I don't apologize to people who 1) rarely
have anything postitive to say 2) jump to an attack the second
someone disagrees with them 3) acts like a troll.



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *The word "unusefull" doesn't count because they are, in fact, two different concepts. I'm waiting...
> Sean *



Keep waiting.  You really think that you're going to be able to 
stop telling people the same crap you've been spewing since you
got here?  I'd like to see that!  So you didn't call shadow boxing
and forms useless, you called them "unusefull" .. fine .. you got
me.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jul 25, 2003)

Ectually, Sean, it's idealism to claim that everything fits into two abstract categories presumed to be integral (and indeed prefatory) to all human action.

I'm a materialist. That means: I tend to look at the actual complexity of history, culture, human action, etc...rather than claim that there is some repetitive cyclic pattern in human affairs...

Sorry if I'm being a bit snooty...we all have our ground states, and I just tried a Gibson cocktail for the first time ever...

And as for overlooking the militarism based upon idealisms...not hardly. I can't remember how many times I've brought up good ol' Donn Draeger (may he sleep in peace!) and his analyses of the role that Shinto and Buddhism played in Japanese fascism...


----------

