# Kung Fu School Information please?



## Mark Weiser

Si Gung Xing Yong Scott Winokur with of Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center out of Kansas City. I just happened to be researching Shaolin Kung Fu schools in Kansas. 

He has instructors in Lawerence and one in Topeka. Does anyone have any information about him?

Classes taught are 

*Chi Lu Chuan Kung Fu*
*Wing Chun*
*Tai Chi Chuan*
*White Willow*
*Chi Lu Chuan Chin Na*
*Trapping And Intercepting*
*R.A.T.T. Combat Self-Defense System*
*Kiddie Kung-Fu*
*Shuai Chiao*
*San Da*
The last two listed above are sparring classes 

Dragon Style Lung Lum Pa
Shaolin 8-Animal Kung-Fu
School website 
http://www.kungfukc.com/frame.html


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## Gary Crawford

Are you thinking about joining?


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## Mark Weiser

From my studies and historical research American Kenpo is based on Shaolin Kung Fu. This would enhance any Kenpo Studies. Also there is only one Kenpo School and it is about 2 hours away from here. While this school is in town and only 20 minutes(Lawerence KS)  away from my house


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## Gary Crawford

I agree that it would be a good enhancement to your kenpo


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## MartialMom

Hey Guys! 

I practice both Kenpo and Kung Fu.  I have found that there are several things taught in Kenpo that are either similar or taken directly from Kung Fu.  Alot of the locks we use in Kenpo are based in Kung Fu.  The close strikes in Tiger are very similar to what is taught in Kenpo.  

For me, although we are taught practical application in Kung Fu, Kenpo teaches set defence senarios for various attacks encountered on the street.  I love the mix, Kung Fu and Yoga are my Calming Chi and Kenpo is my fierce outlet.


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## Venomstrike

As I become more advanced in Kenpo I also wish to study in other martial arts. MartialMom it sounds like you have quite a nice balance in studies.


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## RHD

Here's another instructor with an amazing array of blcak belts from all over the place...Black belts in Okinawan, Japanese, Korean, and _Chinese_ styles.  He must be tired.  Okinawan Karate, Japanese Karate, Korean style, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Lung Lum Pa (lumpa?  ), Chi Lu Chuan, 8 Animal Kung Fu, Shuai Chiao, RATT idunno ...is this list getting suspiciously long?


[*]Dragon Style Lung Lum Pa =nonsensical psuedo Cantonese, probably made up
[*]Shaolin 8-Animal Kung-Fu =??? do some research and find out more about Shaolin 8 animal kung fu...good luck

[*]*Chi Lu Chuan Kung Fu* =???
[*]*Wing Chun* =okay we all have at least heard of this
[*]*Tai Chi Chuan* =same comments as for Wing Chun
[*]*White Willow* =??? Ask around...it's probably made up
[*]*Chi Lu Chuan Chin Na* =??? Ask around...it's probably made up
[*]*Trapping And Intercepting* =This is a style now?
[*]*R.A.T.T. Combat Self-Defense System* =the name says it all
[*]*Kiddie Kung-Fu* =fine, nice idea for kids
[*]*Shuai Chiao* =the instructors bio says he recieved an _honorary_ black belt in Shuai Chiao...what the heck is that?
[*]*San Da* =free fighting

Folks, lets face it...IT's very easy to make money *claiming* to teach Chinese martial arts.  It's not very easy to make a living teaching the real thing because most people do not want to engage in the hard work/time and energy/kung fu it takes to actually learn them.

(sigh)
Oh well...let the flames begin.
Mike


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## clfsean

RHD... lumpa is what the the Oompaloompa's study to help Willy Wonka out... :mp5: 

The rest of it...*shakes head in pain... *


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## Darksoul

-I have to agree with CLFSean and RHD, it sounds like way too much training for one person. Now if there is more than one instructor at these schools, then I would say give it a shot. Often there is one teacher who teaches a few arts, yet they supplement training with another instructor, who may teach whatever. Check the place out and talk with the instructor(s).


A---)


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## Imago Simia

Well this is a really old thread but for what it's worth. I am Sifu Scotts head student at the moment. And I have to say he is a very intellegent and well versed martial artist. All of the things he teaches he is certified to teach. most of it comes from master futong( need to cheak spelling) including CLCKF(8 animals),CLC chin-na, taping and intercepting, Lung lum pa(black dragon), Shuai Chiao. And Sifu has also been accepted as a deciple of Proffessor Husing liu that is where our sun da comes from. He has also traind with Master Randy Lee- wing chun and tai chi. White Willow Sifu Scott developed himself from all of the Knowledge he has obtained over the last 25 or so years of studying CMA.

Thank You respectfully- Imago Simia (Latin for Phantom Monkey)


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## Matt Stone

Imago Simia said:
			
		

> Well this is a really old thread but for what it's worth. I am Sifu Scotts head student at the moment.



Congratulations.



> And I have to say he is a very intellegent and well versed martial artist.



Being intelligent and well-versed doesn't necessarily validate one's alleged volume of knowledge.



> All of the things he teaches he is certified to teach.



Which is, of course, what *he* says, because of course a person who is in the process of defrauding others will be perfectly honest and own up to the scam...   :idunno:   I'm *not* saying that this is the case with your teacher; I'm saying that believing one's teacher's comments about being "certified" doesn't make it so, nor does it make what he/she teaches legitimate.



> most of it comes from master futong( need to cheak spelling) including CLCKF(8 animals),CLC chin-na, taping and intercepting, Lung lum pa(black dragon), Shuai Chiao.



As with each and every other teacher laying claim to a long lineage, the same request is levied here:

Please post teacher trained with, material covered (what style(s)), and duration of time with said teacher.  Also, current age, age when training began, and when the individual in question began teaching.

Further, for those of us who've been around the CMA community for more than a few weeks, please explain what the following are, complete with alleged translations from Chinese to English, characters for said alleged Chinese words preferred, as well as where each style is said to have come from (and "the Shaolin Temple" isn't an all-encompassing answer; details are preferred since the former answer is far too vague):

*Chi Lu Chuan Kung Fu* - What does this mean and what kind of style is it?

*Wing Chun* - You stated he trained under Randy Lee...  Where and from when to when?  How long did he study?  Under whom is he certified to teach?

*Tai Chi Chuan* - What style?  What does his Taijiquan curriculum consist of?

*White Willow* - What is this?  What kind of style?  What is its Chinese name?  Why is it listed in English and not Chinese?

*Chi Lu Chuan Chin Na* - if this is Chin Na from the Chi Lu Chuan style, why does it need to be listed separately?  Chin Na is an included portion of every single style of CMA to one degree or another, and is most typically _not_ listed as a separate art (except to draw attention to its training, usually for a marketing purpose, not necessarily a bad thing...)...

*Trapping And Intercepting* - This is a single skill, again typically included in CMA styles.  Why does it require a separate listing, much less a separate class?

*R.A.T.T. Combat Self-Defense System* - What is this?

*Shuai Chiao* - Like Chin Na above, Shuai Chiao is typically an inclusive training method within a particular art.  Why is it listed separately and taught separately?

*San Da* - So he teaches a full contact rules set.  What does the class consist of?



> And Sifu has also been accepted as a deciple of Proffessor Husing liu that is where our sun da comes from.



If "Professor" Husing Liu was well known, then citing his name might mean something.  Who is he, where is he from, what style does he teach, where does he teach it?



> He has also traind with Master Randy Lee- wing chun and tai chi.



I wasn't aware that Mr. Lee taught Taijiquan.  Please refer to the questions above.



> White Willow Sifu Scott developed himself from all of the Knowledge he has obtained over the last 25 or so years of studying CMA.



So "White Willow" is his own creation...  Why then does he continue to teach the other classes?

Not trying to bust your chops...  Someone asked a question about a school, you provided some answers, but more questions are still pending.  Nor am I trying to imply that your teacher is a fraud; far from it.  These questions are the same questions I ask anyone whose training background is unfamiliar to me.


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## Imago Simia

*Professor Yuzeng Liu*










 Director, Qin'na Fighting and Teaching Section at
China's National Police Academy in Henan






 31st Generation Shaolin Disciple (De Yu)






 8th Generation Wudang Disciple

Prof. Liu is recognized internationally as an expert in Chinese martial arts, including principles, theories, history, and methods from both the Wudang and the Shaolin traditions. In 1993, he was listed in China's National Martial Arts Hall of Fame. He is proficient at practical techniques and a variety of teaching methods. His special areas of expertise are in fighting techniques such as free-style sparring, chin'na, and push hands. His writing on various martial arts subjects has been published extensively in China and he has been invited to contribute to several anthologies, including nationally-used textbooks. He has directed several studies on the health benefits of taiji and qigong practice for different age groups. Recently, some of his work has begun to be translated and published in English. 

He holds degrees in Physical Education from both the Zhengzhou College of Education and Henan Normal University. He is certified as a National First Class Judge in China for forms and san shou (fighting) events. He began studying Shaolin boxing and weapons, Yuefei style with his grandfather Liu Wenzhou when he was six years old. As he grew older, he continued his practice and went on to study with Zhou Tiecheng (Iron Leg and Swift Hand Zhou) and with Wudang boxing master, Wang Xixiao. From them he learned Xingyi, Bagua, and Wudang boxing. In 1980, Yuzeng Liu was accepted for training in orthodox Shaolin gongfu with Chief Monk Suxi at the Shaolin Temple and given the temple name De Yu. While there, he studied Shaolin dian xue (pressure points), Lohan style, Shaolin qigong, and Shaolin martial arts medicine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My spelling really sucks, expecally of chinese words sorry, but thats about all the time I have to post tonight.

Imago Simia


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## Databit

As a former student I have a lot of information on this instructor.

· *Chi Lu Chuan Kung Fu* - This is 8 Animal Kung Fu (Leopard, Crane, Eagle, Monkey, Tiger, Dragon, Snake, mantis)  

· *Wing Chun*  He offers this as a separate course.

· *Tai Chi Chuan*  He seldom teaches this, but has his other instructors from another branch come and teach it for him.  At least he did while I was there.

· *White Willow*  He created this form himself.  It is a combination, Wing Chung, Tai Chi, and 8 Animal.  

· *Chi Lu Chuan Chin Na*  This is the same as the first, however the focus is more on pressures points.  Im  not to sure on this one.  He tried them on me a lot and very seldom got a respons, but I did fake it for people coming to see what the place was about.  (Hey he raised rates every 6 months, the more people that came in the less he would raise it.)

· *Trapping And Intercepting*  This is specific parts of Wing Chun. He has the class once a week. 

· *R.A.T.T. Combat Self-Defense System*  He list this but I never saw him teach it.  If you go to the site I dont think it is even listed in a time slot.

· *Kiddie Kung-Fu*  He never taught this, but had others teach it for him.  

· *Shuai Chiao* - He list this but I never saw him teach it.

· *San Da - *He list this but I never saw him teach it.

Ok, now understand that I believe everyone has their good days and bad days.  I also believe that each person has their own opinion on how things are to be done.  This is not a insult to the instructor, but a statement of my experiences at his school.


From what I can tell you train to compete in tournaments.  While he says that they are not required, or at least that is what he told me, I did witness him threaten to kicking anyone above a white sash out of the school if they did not sign up for his tournament.  However, I never saw him kick anyone out, though I did see people walk out because of this.
He teaches iron body training and in doing so dropped several of the women to their knees.
I did witness the head instructor act in a unprofessional manner on a regular basis. (nope I am not going into details about this so dont ask)
The head instructor has openly admitted to having issues with his peers.
I witnessed several students have quit stating that they are not paying to put up with the head instructor.
I witnessed several instructors have been fired, rehired, fired, threatened, and what have you on a weekly basis.
While he does offer a large sum of weapons you have to pay extra money to learn them, and then he only knows the form and nothing more. (From what I have been able to see.)
The head instructor stated several times that our students were known as the Kung Fu Dancers buy other schools.

As for the art form itself I would say it is very complex and rewarding.  It does build up strength and the ability to defend oneself.  If you wish to study this form, I would look into a branch school.  The good thing about this guy is that there are no contracts, so you can come and go as you please.


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## Databit

Well this is a really old thread but for what it's worth. I am Sifu Scotts head student at the moment.

What do you mean by "Head Student"? 

 And I have to say he is a very intelligent and well versed martial artist. 

I would agree with this statement, however I have to agree with the statement made by his own Sifu.  He is not a Sifu. (That is he is a Sifu only in title not in actions.) And Sifu Scott told me that himself.

All of the things he teaches he is certified to teach. most of it comes from master futong( need to cheak spelling) including CLCKF(8 animals),CLC chin-na, taping and intercepting, Lung lum pa(black dragon), Shuai Chiao. And Sifu has also been accepted as a deciple of Proffessor Husing liu that is where our sun da comes from. He has also traind with Master Randy Lee- wing chun and tai chi. 

Last I heard, from Sifu Scott himself, Master Lee has little to do with him as does most of his peers.  If I am remembering his Sifu Scott's own statements.

White Willow Sifu Scott developed himself from all of the Knowledge he has obtained over the last 25 or so years of studying CMA.

As I remember he boasted that this form was designed to beat all other forms and thus show how superior he is to his peers.  

Thank You respectfully- Imago Simia (Latin for Phantom Monkey)


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## Databit

Director, Qin'na Fighting and Teaching Section at
China's National Police Academy in Henan






 31st Generation Shaolin Disciple (De Yu)






 8th Generation Wudang Disciple

Prof. Liu is recognized internationally as an expert in Chinese martial arts, including principles, theories, history, and methods from both the Wudang and the Shaolin traditions. In 1993, he was listed in China's National Martial Arts Hall of Fame. He is proficient at practical techniques and a variety of teaching methods. His special areas of expertise are in fighting techniques such as free-style sparring, chin'na, and push hands. His writing on various martial arts subjects has been published extensively in China and he has been invited to contribute to several anthologies, including nationally-used textbooks. He has directed several studies on the health benefits of taiji and qigong practice for different age groups. Recently, some of his work has begun to be translated and published in English. 

He holds degrees in Physical Education from both the Zhengzhou College of Education and Henan Normal University. He is certified as a National First Class Judge in China for forms and san shou (fighting) events. He began studying Shaolin boxing and weapons, Yuefei style with his grandfather Liu Wenzhou when he was six years old. As he grew older, he continued his practice and went on to study with Zhou Tiecheng (Iron Leg and Swift Hand Zhou) and with Wudang boxing master, Wang Xixiao. From them he learned Xingyi, Bagua, and Wudang boxing. In 1980, Yuzeng Liu was accepted for training in orthodox Shaolin gongfu with Chief Monk Suxi at the Shaolin Temple and given the temple name De Yu. While there, he studied Shaolin dian xue (pressure points), Lohan style, Shaolin qigong, and Shaolin martial arts medicine.

Now where did you get this?  Directly from Scott himself?  Has he shown you any of these degrees?  Have you talked to these people?

Look I'm not saying anything bad about the guy, but when it comes to a instructor of a martial art you need one that focused on providing you the best education in his art.  My personal opinion is that this Sifu needs to address his personal issues first then return to teaching.


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## tshadowchaser

Am I missing something here????
what has *Professor Yuzeng Liu got to do with the discussion of *Sifu Scotts and his school
are you trying to say they are the same person??  sorry I am confussed


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## TaiChiTJ

Boy I am sure glad TShadowChaser admitted being confused because I am confused too! 

The Chinese master must live in China.

The very honest comments such as that he really doesn't teach Tai Chi, he lets someone else do it, etc., are indeed referring to Scott's school in Kansas City, not the master in China. 

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

OK, I just went onto Scott's site and learned some things. Scott studied with Master Randy Li. I attended a seminar given by Master Randy Li at the Tai Chi Legacy a few years ago. Master Li does indeed teach both Wing Chun and Tai Chi at his WingChun USA school in Overland Park KS.


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## TaiChiTJ

Is there anywhere on the web where a portion of the eight animal form is shown?


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## newtothe dark

I haven't seen it but if others have would love to see the link..


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## Databit

From what I am told there are several 8 animal forms.  Actually there are more than just 8 forms as well.  Based on the family line that you are learning will determine the form itself.  I have found several different version of 8 animal, 5 animal, and each of the animal forms individually on Youtube and Google Video.


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## Databit

*White Willow* - What is this?  What kind of style?  What is its Chinese name?  Why is it listed in English and not Chinese?


This style is only two years old and created by Scott.  He has stated the Chinese name, based on the different arts used to create it, but I cannot tell you what they are.


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## grayarea

Hi all. Why is it so easy to doubt everyone these days? You guys go to the point of saying he is a bad guy just because he has an impressive resume. It is hard to have a short resume when you have been dutifully studying a discipline for 30 years. Of course the bad reports are coming from banned or otherwise closed accounts. 

I have been studying under Sigung Winokur for almost 4 years. I am now 48 years old and I am a great deal more sensative, stonger, tougher, smarter, more agile than I was 4 years ago. I have him to thank for that. If I had been weak hearted or not dedicated I would have left long ago. 

Your martial arts teacher cannot give you everything you need to survive in this world. You have to come in with desire to learn and the willingness to listen. Most that walk through your door will have neither. I am speaking from the standpoint of a dedicated student. 

As for the rest Sigung Scott Winokur, in my opinion, is real. Also, he is not rich. He weeds out many more students than most in martial arts. He is looking for students that are worthy of learning the art. The arts that are being taught can kill and the teacher needs to know who he/she is teaching. 

I will stop now. This will probably not be read anyway.

Have a blessed day.

Charles Gray
Kansas City, MO


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## Tensei85

Matt Stone said:


> Congratulations.
> *Chi Lu Chuan Kung Fu* - What does this mean and what kind of style is it?
> 
> Chi Lu Quan - not sure of the exact meaning would need characters.
> 
> But Chi Lu does not mean 8 animals, in fact if anything chi would be qi (7)
> 
> Probably not this Chi Lu - *&#36196;&#38706; Bare: *
> 
> Could be qin &#31165; which is bird:
> 
> Lu would probably be *&#36335;* which is road which would make sense.
> 
> And of course Quan *&#25331;* which is fist.
> 
> *White Willow* - What is this? What kind of style? What is its Chinese name? Why is it listed in English and not Chinese?
> 
> White willow - &#30333;&#26611; - Bai Liu:


 

Here's my answers in blue to the topic's questions but I'm not a member or student of that organization, so don't have any inside details.


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## Tensei85

grayarea said:


> Hi all. Why is it so easy to doubt everyone these days? You guys go to the point of saying he is a bad guy just because he has an impressive resume. It is hard to have a short resume when you have been dutifully studying a discipline for 30 years. Of course the bad reports are coming from banned or otherwise closed accounts.
> 
> I have been studying under Sigung Winokur for almost 4 years. I am now 48 years old and I am a great deal more sensative, stonger, tougher, smarter, more agile than I was 4 years ago. I have him to thank for that. If I had been weak hearted or not dedicated I would have left long ago.
> 
> Your martial arts teacher cannot give you everything you need to survive in this world. You have to come in with desire to learn and the willingness to listen. Most that walk through your door will have neither. I am speaking from the standpoint of a dedicated student.
> 
> As for the rest Sigung Scott Winokur, in my opinion, is real. Also, he is not rich. He weeds out many more students than most in martial arts. He is looking for students that are worthy of learning the art. The arts that are being taught can kill and the teacher needs to know who he/she is teaching.
> 
> I will stop now. This will probably not be read anyway.
> 
> Have a blessed day.
> 
> Charles Gray
> Kansas City, MO


 
That's great I agree 100%, as long as your happy doing what your doing & are gaining something valuable than its worth the time & effort put into it.
Best of luck with training, remember its just the internet so don't sweat the small stuff...

BTW: since your a member of the org. can you update us a little more about "Chi Lu Chuan" & the "Bai Liu" that is taught at your School?

P.S. when you get time can you ask your Sifu what the Chinese characters are for his "Chi Lu Quan"? so its easier to understand for some of us.

Thanks a lot,


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## mograph

grayarea said:


> I have been studying under Sigung Winokur for almost 4 years. I am now 48 years old and I am a great deal more sensative, stonger, tougher, smarter, more agile than I was 4 years ago. I have him to thank for that. If I had been weak hearted or not dedicated I would have left long ago.
> 
> .......
> 
> I will stop now. This will probably not be read anyway.



Hey, I read it.  Your experience sounds great. More power to you and your Sigung.


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## bowser666

I know this is a fairly old thread, but this sounds like a classic McKwoon. As we  all know in CMA a lineage is usually referenced. I did not see any reference to any of his lineage, regardless of what style it is.  Usually teachers that never reference a lineage are suspect in my book. My guess is he has a expansive DVD/VHS video library.


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## Xue Sheng

grayarea said:


> Hi all. Why is it so easy to doubt everyone these days? You guys go to the point of saying he is a bad guy just because he has an impressive resume. It is hard to have a short resume when you have been dutifully studying a discipline for 30 years. Of course the bad reports are coming from banned or otherwise closed accounts.
> 
> I have been studying under Sigung Winokur for almost 4 years. I am now 48 years old and I am a great deal more sensative, stonger, tougher, smarter, more agile than I was 4 years ago. I have him to thank for that. If I had been weak hearted or not dedicated I would have left long ago.
> 
> Your martial arts teacher cannot give you everything you need to survive in this world. You have to come in with desire to learn and the willingness to listen. Most that walk through your door will have neither. I am speaking from the standpoint of a dedicated student.
> 
> As for the rest Sigung Scott Winokur, in my opinion, is real. Also, he is not rich. He weeds out many more students than most in martial arts. He is looking for students that are worthy of learning the art. The arts that are being taught can kill and the teacher needs to know who he/she is teaching.
> 
> I will stop now. This will probably not be read anyway.
> 
> Have a blessed day.
> 
> Charles Gray
> Kansas City, MO


 

a couple of questions does Sigung Scott Winokur tell his students he is to be called Sigung or did they just start calling him that?

And does Sigung Scott Winokur or his students have any idea what Sigung means?


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## grayarea

Hi all! Scott Winokur has not been here to answer any questions. There have only been a couple disgruntled former students without real names and me. 

I believe Sigung rough translation is Master Teacher. He is an 8th degree black sash in Chi Lu Chuan 8 Animal Kung Fu. I think I am the only one that calls him that. Most still call him Sifu which is still correct.

He actually has information on what students/teachers of different levels are titled.

That McKwoon comment is very jaded. I am sorry that you have such a poor opinion of the world's occupants. I am just now being asked about any lineage. I believe if due diligence on your part were conducted then you would find the answer on your own. I will help you. Go to: http://www.kungfukc.com 

Have a wonderful day.

Charles Gray
A lowly student of Kung Fu


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## grayarea

Sorry all. The titles of different sash levels is on the website listed. I forgot to finish my sentence.

Charles Gray


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## Flying Crane

grayarea said:


> .
> 
> I believe Sigung rough translation is Master Teacher. He is an 8th degree black sash in Chi Lu Chuan 8 Animal Kung Fu. I think I am the only one that calls him that. Most still call him Sifu which is still correct.
> 
> 
> Charles Gray
> A lowly student of Kung Fu



Hi Charles,

I am sorry, but you are absolutely wrong about this.  Sifu is YOUR teacher.  Sigung is your TEACHER'S teacher.

To use the title of sigung in a general way just does not make sense.  You are literally calling him, "Hey, My Teacher's Teacher..."

If he is your teacher, then he is Sifu.  Period.  It does not matter what level of rank he may have been awarded.

If you have students of your own, then to your students, he is Sigung.


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## Xue Sheng

grayarea said:


> Hi all! Scott Winokur has not been here to answer any questions. There have only been a couple disgruntled former students without real names and me.
> 
> I believe Sigung rough translation is Master Teacher. He is an 8th degree black sash in Chi Lu Chuan 8 Animal Kung Fu. I think I am the only one that calls him that. Most still call him Sifu which is still correct.
> 
> He actually has information on what students/teachers of different levels are titled.
> 
> That McKwoon comment is very jaded. I am sorry that you have such a poor opinion of the world's occupants. I am just now being asked about any lineage. I believe if due diligence on your part were conducted then you would find the answer on your own. I will help you. Go to: http://www.kungfukc.com
> 
> Have a wonderful day.
> 
> Charles Gray
> A lowly student of Kung Fu


 
This has already been addressed by Crane but you may want to look here as well, it is not directed at you but at those that teach CMA and tell all they are to be called Sigung.



Flying Crane said:


> Hi Charles,
> 
> I am sorry, but you are absolutely wrong about this. Sifu is YOUR teacher. Sigung is your TEACHER'S teacher.
> 
> To use the title of sigung in a general way just does not make sense. You are literally calling him, "Hey, My Teacher's Teacher..."
> 
> If he is your teacher, then he is Sifu. Period. It does not matter what level of rank he may have been awarded.
> 
> If you have students of your own, then to your students, he is Sigung.


 
Also traditional CMA there are no belt ranks, sashes or 8th degrees


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## Tensei85

OMG, when will it end??

I vote for in America lets forget Sifu/Shifu & just go by Mr. & Mrs. from now on... 

I think most of the problem is in American Society(etc...), most Americans tend to view things as ranks & levels, well & sometimes belts. 

But in CMA its about Familial Hierarchy, not 10th 0r 100th degree black belts. (Other than the newer devised Duan system of ranking for Modern Wushu)

Just repeating pretty much whats already been stated 100,000,000 times or more... but it seems it can't be stressed enough.


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## UNYMA

Oddly enough some systems actually do specify the use of Sigung, Sifu etc with specific belt ranks.  Kajukenbo does it for some reason.  I don't know why and it certainly seems to muddy up the waters so to speak.


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## Flying Crane

UNYMA said:


> Oddly enough some systems actually do specify the use of Sigung, Sifu etc with specific belt ranks. Kajukenbo does it for some reason. I don't know why and it certainly seems to muddy up the waters so to speak.


 
then they clearly do not understand what the terms actually mean.


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> then they clearly do not understand what the terms actually mean.


 
It's kind of like telling your kids to call you Grandpa


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## Flying Crane

Yeah, I think people misunderstand Sigung to mean something a little more abstract, like "The Teacher of Teachers", or "Master Teacher" or something. But it's not. It's a very specific relationship. He is the teacher of YOUR teacher, and use of the title depends on YOUR specific relationship with him.

I currently train with my sigung.  He taught my teacher, and he agreed to let me train with his group of disciples, tho I have not been elevated to the level of disciple myself.  His disciples call him Sifu, and I call him Sigung.


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> I currently train with my sigung. He taught my teacher, and he agreed to let me train with his group of disciples, tho I have not been elevated to the level of disciple myself. His disciples call him Sifu, and I call him Sigung.


 
As it should be.

So far in my sifu's taiji class students have tried to call him Grand master, which he put a stop too immediately and one tried calling him sigung to which he laughed and said he was not their sigung. But then another student talking with him was referring to Yang Chengfu as Sigung Yang and he thought that was pretty funny too 

My Sanda Sifu didn't even want to be called Sifu so I am not sure how he would handle sigung 

Sifu is your teacher and sigung is your teacher's teacher that is all.


----------



## clfsean

Flying Crane said:


> Hi Charles,
> 
> I am sorry, but you are absolutely wrong about this.  Sifu is YOUR teacher.  Sigung is your TEACHER'S teacher.
> 
> To use the title of sigung in a general way just does not make sense.  You are literally calling him, "Hey, My Teacher's Teacher..."
> 
> If he is your teacher, then he is Sifu.  Period.  It does not matter what level of rank he may have been awarded.
> 
> If you have students of your own, then to your students, he is Sigung.




Word... simple... word.


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## Tensei85

Imago Simia said:


> Well this is a really old thread but for what it's worth. I am Sifu Scotts head student at the moment. And I have to say he is a very intellegent and well versed martial artist. All of the things he teaches he is certified to teach. most of it comes from master futong( need to cheak spelling) including CLCKF(8 animals),CLC chin-na, taping and intercepting, Lung lum pa(black dragon), Shuai Chiao. And Sifu has also been accepted as a deciple of Proffessor Husing liu that is where our sun da comes from. He has also traind with Master Randy Lee- wing chun and tai chi. White Willow Sifu Scott developed himself from all of the Knowledge he has obtained over the last 25 or so years of studying CMA.
> 
> Thank You respectfully- Imago Simia (Latin for Phantom Monkey)


 
Chi Lu Chuan Kung Fu does not equate to 8 Animals, checked his website:

If this is Chi Lu Quan as on website: &#23569;&#26519;&#19971;&#36335;&#25331; breakdown:
&#23569;&#26519; - Shaolin
&#19971; - Qi (not Chi) = 7
&#36335; - Lu (Road) NOT Animal
&#25331; - Quan (Fist)

How the hell does this equate to Shaolin 8 Animals?????

I'm sorry but if your going to make up your own style & become the G.M. Pubaa of a "supposed" Chinese art than atleast use proper Chinese not a bunch of made up ****!


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## UNYMA

I understand completely and agree 100%. Sifu is my teacher, sigung is my teachers' teacher. Case closed.   That's why I said it's odd that they do it the way they do. The Kaju folks aren't dumb, I assume they know the translation, I have no idea why they did it.


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## Tensei85

Imago Simia said:


> *Professor Yuzeng Liu*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Director, Qin'na Fighting and Teaching Section at
> China's National Police Academy in Henan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 31st Generation Shaolin Disciple (De Yu)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 8th Generation Wudang Disciple
> 
> He is certified as a National First Class Judge in China for forms and san shou (fighting) events.


 
Check Duan system of ranking for Wushu:

http://www.iwuf.org/news_news1_1.asp?id=462

I'm guessing this is where the info came from, http://www.wudang.com/English/Welcome/YuzengLiu.html


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## Xue Sheng

Sorry this is going off post and maybe it should be a post of its own but

I have a question about Kajukenbo; why are they using Chinese terms at all since thier origin is mostly not Chinese?

Ka = Karate
Ju = Judo and Jujitsu
Ken = Kenpo
Bo = Chinese boxing

All that is from here  

It sounds like a rather nice style that I would not mind checking out someday but why are they using Chinese titles at all?


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## Flying Crane

UNYMA said:


> I understand completely and agree 100%. Sifu is my teacher, sigung is my teachers' teacher. Case closed. That's why I said it's odd that they do it the way they do. The Kaju folks aren't dumb, I assume they know the translation, I have no idea why they did it.


 
well, it's not just the kaju people.  There is a prominent kenpo guy who apparently likes to use the title Sigung as well.  I don't know how he got the title, if someone else started calling him that, or if he adopted it himself.  But the bottom line is, for some people he would be Sigung, and for other people he would be Sifu, and it totally depends on the individual's relationship with him.

Adopting Sigung as a general title just doesn't work.


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## blindsage

Xue Sheng said:


> Sorry this is going off post and maybe it should be a post of its own but
> 
> I have a question about Kajukenbo; why are they using Chinese terms at all since thier origin is mostly not Chinese?
> 
> Ka = Karate
> Ju = Judo and Jujitsu
> Ken = Kenpo
> Bo = Chinese boxing
> 
> All that is from here
> 
> It sounds like a rather nice style that I would not mind checking out someday but why are they using Chinese titles at all?


I've tried to find this out as well in the past, but I can't find any explanation for it on the net.  My wife recently started training at a Kajukenbo school, I see if I can find a diplomatic way of asking her instructor if she knows the answer to this question.


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## UNYMA

I'll throw this out as a possibility but know that it's just conjecture.  Kajukenbo originated in Hawaii, many of the martial artists in that period were imigrants from China, the Philipines, Japan etc.  so even though the origins weren't specifically Chinese, many of the people in the area were.  If you want to communicate standing to a group of people it's easiest to do it in a language they use.  It's a logical progression albeit totally hypothetical.


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## blindsage

UNYMA said:


> I'll throw this out as a possibility but know that it's just conjecture. Kajukenbo originated in Hawaii, many of the martial artists in that period were imigrants from China, the Philipines, Japan etc. so even though the origins weren't specifically Chinese, many of the people in the area were. If you want to communicate standing to a group of people it's easiest to do it in a language they use. It's a logical progression albeit totally hypothetical.


But wouldn't you just confuse them since you would be taking the terminology from their native language and using it out of context?


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## UNYMA

Certainly a valid point but if I know you place great value or respect on a specific title (and yes I realize that Sigung, for example, isn't a title but really just word that defines a relationship, but truly, who doesn't hold their Sigung in very high regard) and I want you to place that same amount of respect in me then I would want to use a term I know you equate with respect.  Yes it would be out of context but when you don't really know what I mean anyway the context is shaped by your notions of the words I use.


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## blindsage

I decided to go straight to our own source, I posted a topic asking this question in the Kajukenbo section of Martial Talk (here).

I tried being diplomatic.  Hopefully we will get a good answer.  (I will still inquire with my wife's instructor as well).


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## Xue Sheng

UNYMA said:


> Certainly a valid point but if I know you place great value or respect on a specific title (and yes I realize that Sigung, for example, isn't a title but really just word that defines a relationship, but truly, who doesn't hold their Sigung in very high regard) and I want you to place that same amount of respect in me then I would want to use a term I know you equate with respect. Yes it would be out of context but when you don't really know what I mean anyway the context is shaped by your notions of the words I use.


 
Sifu is a term of respect and is your teacher

Sigung is a term of respect and is your teacher's teacher

Sifu is not a lower term of less respect it is, as far as the student is concerned, the same your sifu is just younger and 1 generation further along and the term sifu has a whole lot of respect that comes with it. So why oh why do people want to lock onto sigung when they most definitely are not. Let me link this again.

Just because you think Grandfather is a term deserving more respect does not mean you should have your kid&#8217;s call you grandfather, you are there father. And that is not out of context it is improper usage.

And using sigung when you should use sifu is not out of context either it is a blatant disregard for proper translation and usage.


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## UNYMA

Short answer - beats me why it's done.  I was just trying to come up with a logical reason and it's not really logical.


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## grayarea

Thank you very much. He has different schools. I am not Chinese so I may have mixed up some of this. I will check again. Here is something I found on Google that I thought might be useful to our discussion.

www.yumihohm.com/*kungfu*/tournament/seminar.pdf

http://www.yumihohm.com/kungfu/anniv-tourn-seminars.htm

*CONGRATULATIONS SCOTT WINOKUR USA MARTIAL ARTS HALL OF FAME*


USA MARTIAL ARTS HALL OF FAME INDUCTEE
MARCH 31st, 2007
Midwest Chinese Martial art Center
8201 Wornell KC, MO
(816)444-4777
www.Kungfukc.com
On March 31st, 2007 Master Winokur was inducted into the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame at a ceremony in Richmond, Indiana. Master Winokur is only the fifth person from Missouri and the first form the city of Kansas City to recieve this honor. Master Winokur continues to operate the Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center at 8201 Wornell Road and his students continue to pass on his knowledge across the nation and the Metro area with schools in Baltimore, New York, Nevada, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, Raytown and Overland Park. The headquarters school recieved Waldo's Best Property Award in 2006.
Master Scott Winokur began training in Chinese Kung Fu in 1978 and has nearly 30 years of experience. Master Winokur has black belts in Chinese, Japanese, Okinowan, and Korean martial arts. He is a 5th generation Lung Lum Pai Dragon Kung Fu disciple under Master C.F. Tong and in 1999 was recognized and accepted as a disciple student of 31st Generation Shaolin Temple and 8th generation Wu Dang temple disciple Professor Yu Zheng Liu. Master Winokur serves as president of the USA Xing Yong Chinese Martial Arts Association



*03-24-2007* (2 da days)
*7th Golden Dragon Martial Arts Classic*
Please attend the 7th Golden Dragon Classic & Masters Workshops. Held in Kansas City sponsered by Pepsi, Tigerclaw.com, and Liberty Fruit CO. 200 + divisions of all styles of Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean Styles welcome, Southern Long, Short, Wing Chun, all Tai Chi styles, long, short, Double/Flex weapons, 2person forms/weapons $45 for 2 events and $10 extra events, spectators fees $5 adults, $3 kids6-12, 5 and under FREE. Hotel and registration forms at www.kungfukc.com click golden dragon icon for more info email goldendragoninfo@yahoo.com or call Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center Sifu Scott Winokur 816-444-4777 in Kansas City, MO 64114 USA Event held at Shawnee Mission South Highschool 5800 W 107th St 66207
For more information, contact: Sifu Scott Winokur-Midwest Chinese Martial Arts
Phone: 816-444-4777
Event Address: 8201 Wornall Rd Headquarters
Kansas City, MO, 64114 USA
Online: goldendragoninfo@yahoo.com - www.kungfukc.com
*EVENT ID: 2576* Edit


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## grayarea

The last email is only meant as a due diligence effort to use the simplest tool I could find to determine if someone really exists in the realm they claim. As far as Google goes some people I see here as Masters do not show up when searched for. As I was told before "it is just the internet, don't sweat the small stuff."

Thanks all for the good conversation. I am enjoying it.

Charles Gray
Lowly Kung Fu student


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## blindsage

grayarea said:


> *CONGRATULATIONS SCOTT WINOKUR USA MARTIAL ARTS HALL OF FAME*
> 
> 
> USA MARTIAL ARTS HALL OF FAME INDUCTEE
> MARCH 31st, 2007
> Midwest Chinese Martial art Center
> 8201 Wornell KC, MO
> (816)444-4777
> www.Kungfukc.com
> On March 31st, 2007 Master Winokur was inducted into the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame at a ceremony in Richmond, Indiana. Master Winokur is only the fifth person from Missouri and the first form the city of Kansas City to recieve this honor. Master Winokur continues to operate the Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center at 8201 Wornell Road and his students continue to pass on his knowledge across the nation and the Metro area with schools in Baltimore, New York, Nevada, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, Raytown and Overland Park. The headquarters school recieved Waldo's Best Property Award in 2006.
> Master Scott Winokur began training in Chinese Kung Fu in 1978 and has nearly 30 years of experience. Master Winokur has black belts in Chinese, Japanese, Okinowan, and Korean martial arts. He is a 5th generation Lung Lum Pai Dragon Kung Fu disciple under Master C.F. Tong and in 1999 was recognized and accepted as a disciple student of 31st Generation Shaolin Temple and 8th generation Wu Dang temple disciple Professor Yu Zheng Liu. Master Winokur serves as president of the USA Xing Yong Chinese Martial Arts Association


 
Here's the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame website: http://www.usnmat.net/. I'll let you all decide for yourselves what value it has for anything, but I did note that there are 14 inductees from Missouri, maybe they've added 9 in 2 years, but since it this "Hall of Fame" claims to have existed since 1976, I find it a little odd one way or another.


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## grayarea

As has been stated before it is the internet. The internet is a con man's paradise. You can never tell who is here. It is sometimes hard to tell meeting people in person whether they are sincere or not. As also has been stated here a good library can give you the correct lingo to use. 

You must judge a man/woman in person. If you choose to be a skeptic and never take anyone at face value then that is your choice. I have made a strong attempt to keep minds open here. Some are very closed, some are very open. The only person I had to convince of my Sifu's knowledge and abilities is me. Read my other posts here. I am convinced beyond doubt. After 4 years of studying I know what I can do even though I cannot explain my Sifu's training as well as he can. That is why I can only teach when supervised.

My Sifu is a very talented martial artist trained in many disciplines. If in the neighborhood come see for yourself. Also I think I am the only grey haired man on the website http://www.kungfukc.com Look under "upcoming events". My family and I are there. 

I still love the conversations here. I see a lot of different viewpoints and styles represented here.

Charles Gray
Kansas City, MO


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## Tensei85

Grayarea,
So maybe to clarify;

Is Qi Lu Quan (Chi Lu Chuan) an invention of Mr. Winokur? It says its based off of 8 Animals, so why the need to change it to a seperate style?
What is the meaning behind the name Qi Lu Quan (7 Roads Fist)? How does it correspond to 8 Animals? 

Is Bai Liu and invention of Mr. Winokur? What is the foundation for Bai Liu?
What comprises Bai Liu? as I see he mentions "it is a modern approach", how is this different than the other approaches he teaches?. 

He mentions Qi Lu Quan Qin Na, what is the foundation for this type of Qin Na, is it Shaolin in nature? 

I still fale to see how "Trapping & Intercepting" are considered a style, maybe he should reinvent the website a bit, take off a few things that are really not styles & it would leave less questions and or concerns. 

I see he now refers to himself as "Sitai Gung" (his White willow page), why the need for such a title? It doesn't equate to Grandmaster or Great Grandmaster, it is a familial title based on that hierarchy. 

One last point not really a question but; its not really that important, I see he mixes and matches the Mandarin & Cantonese terminology, It may give more credit if he stuck with one or the other instead of going into Bai Liu & then putting in a Cantonese term like "Sitai Gung". 

I think if these points were elaborated on it would leave a lot fewer questions to wonder. Since your an Instructor in training it would be great if you could touch on these topics. 

It's great that you are enjoying the training there, best luck!

For the record I'm not trying to accuse him of anything as I'm sure he has skills & knows his stuff, but I'm just a little confused at some of the wording so am seeking clarification not challenging his legitamacy.

Thanks,


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## Xue Sheng

Sitai Gung :disgust:

Great more self appointed titles from people who are clueless about the language and its meaning who NOW are mixing two dialects that, for the most part, CAN'T TALK TO ONE ANOTHER!!!!!

From now on when post to me please refer to me by my new self-appointed title of Chueh &#30343;&#24093; Gott von Xuefu


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## grayarea

Yes I do wish we all spoke/wrote all Chinese dialects so that we would not make mistakes in the writing. However, the same can be said for Korean, Japanese and all other teachers of martial arts who do not know the language of the country from which their art springs. I think that quite a few fall into this category especially "us Americans". 

However, since I cannot correct every American that teaches a martial art, I will print the comments/questions of the post by Tensei85 and hand them to my Sifu. 

He is a US born Jewish man so I quite expect some of the Chinese language to be mistaken. 

Thank you all for your conversation.

Charles Gray
Lowly Kung Fu student


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## Tensei85

grayarea said:


> Yes I do wish we all spoke/wrote all Chinese dialects so that we would not make mistakes in the writing. However, the same can be said for Korean, Japanese and all other teachers of martial arts who do not know the language of the country from which their art springs. I think that quite a few fall into this category especially "us Americans".
> 
> However, since I cannot correct every American that teaches a martial art, I will print the comments/questions of the post by Tensei85 and hand them to my Sifu.
> 
> He is a US born Jewish man so I quite expect some of the Chinese language to be mistaken.
> 
> Thank you all for your conversation.
> 
> Charles Gray
> Lowly Kung Fu student


 

Thanks for the reply, I can understand that but I think this verbiage would apply, "if you don't know it than don't use it" may be helpful... and give more credit back to the source as well.

Just like if I was trying to teach Savate or even Muay Thai, I'm not going to try and use the terminology from a language I don't know, understand or comprehend. I will teach what I know, and what is legit. If people have a problem with me not speaking or using the terminology from that language then I would say "buy a dictionary".

In the end I don't think people, especially in America have a problem with a white guy teaching Chinese Gong Fu and not using Chinese terminology, in fact a lot of the Guan's in the U.S. do not adapt Chinese terms, & its cool as long as what they are teaching is useful. But in this case it makes it seem that one is trying to garner legitamacy by using generic Chinese terms from a mesh of Cantonese/Mandarin Martial Arts phrases, I know thats not the case but to me that would be my opinion as a 3rd person perspective.

p.s. thanks for taking the time to bring my questions to your Sifu, its much appreciated for your efforts, will be waiting for your reply.

All the best,


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## Xue Sheng

When I taught I did not use any Chinese terms since my class was not made up of Chinese people. My sifu, who is Chinese, does not use any Chinese terminology on any of his student, other than me, because most do not speak any Chinese at all. My first sifu who is also Chinese only used Chinese terms when he could not figure out the English and my Sanda sifu who is Chinese (all are born and raised on mainland by the way) uses no Chinese at all either.

If I teach agian I will not use Chinese terms unless it is easier and then I can explain what that term means or unless my students ask what the Chinese is for what we are doing.

Chueh &#30343;&#24093; Gott von Xuefu


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## Tensei85

What Chueh &#30343;&#24093; Gott von Xuefu aka G.M. Xue of the International Xue Fu Do Association said!

Haha, my Sifu's have all used Chinese in teaching but this is due because they were more comfortable using the Chinese as their English was generally only so-so, + I knew what they were saying. 

But if you can convey the proper meaning which by the way is rather hard from one language to another, but if you can than that's all that counts. 

Besides that I think alot of it's in the teaching methods, by that I mean how they teach, how they transmit as a Sifu. I've met Sifu's that by all means could only say maybe 10 Words in English (Most words were "do 100 times or do 50 times", or my favorite its just o.k. do 100 more times ; ) but they could teach phenomenally to the "only" English speaking Students. 

So if you can have a Sifu that can transmit knowledge in that manner, than its really priceless!


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## Gabacho

I am a student of Randy Li. I have been since 2005. I thought it would be worth mentioning he does not consider Scott Winokur a student of his, nor has he given him permission to use his name in teaching Wing Chun, nor Tai Chi.

Currently in our class is a former student of Scott, whom deserves my utmost respect for the vigilance with which he trained under Scott for what I believe was around 6 years. The proficiency and dedication he has displayed week after week is incredible. However, it was attained only after spending years undoing the ridiculousness he was taught.

I recommend those thinking of training under what I consider to be a fraud look to training under a legitimate person who has walked the walk, and talks the talk. His name is Randy Li.

In my travels to China, I was fortunate enough to have met Ip Chun. That is, the son of Ip Man. After proving myself to them, by demonstrating my techniques in Chi Sau, with whom I was told was his top student,  I was graced with the oppurtunity to train with them for an entire day, be in a documentary chronicling foreigners learning Kung fu in China, and practice chi sau with Ip Chun himself. I shutter at the thought of what would have been the result had I learned under "Sigung" Scott Winokur.

My name is Donnie Quinn, if you have any questions, please ask.

You may contact me at _{personal contact info redacted per rule 1.5 - jks9199_}. I do have photos and video to prove the aforementioned.


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## TaiChiTJ

Mark Weiser said:


> Si Gung Xing Yong Scott Winokur with of Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center out of Kansas City. I just happened to be researching Shaolin Kung Fu schools in Kansas.
> 
> He has instructors in Lawerence and one in Topeka. Does anyone have any information about him?
> 
> Classes taught are
> 
> *Chi Lu Chuan Kung Fu*
> *Wing Chun*
> *Tai Chi Chuan*
> *White Willow*
> *Chi Lu Chuan Chin Na*
> *Trapping And Intercepting*
> *R.A.T.T. Combat Self-Defense System*
> *Kiddie Kung-Fu*
> *Shuai Chiao*
> *San Da*
> The last two listed above are sparring classes
> 
> Dragon Style Lung Lum Pa
> Shaolin 8-Animal Kung-Fu
> School website
> Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center


 
It does indeed appear Master Scott Winokur now has a variety of videos for the public's perusal up on YouTube. Here, for example, is a two person form apparently from the 8-Animal Kung-Fu he is a Professor of:


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## yak sao

Xue Sheng said:


> Sitai Gung :disgust:
> 
> Great more self appointed titles from people who are clueless about the language and its meaning who NOW are mixing two dialects that, for the most part, CAN'T TALK TO ONE ANOTHER!!!!!
> 
> From now on when post to me please refer to me by my new self-appointed title of Chueh &#30343;&#24093; Gott von Xuefu




Since we're buds I'll call you &#303 for short....if that's OK?


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## Xue Sheng

yak sao said:


> Since we're buds I'll call you &#303 for short....if that's OK?



No problem.... &#303 is what happens when you change forum software and the smiles don't carry over

I will also answer to "Lord High Omnipotent Ruler Grand Master Sensei Shifu Guru Shigong and Evil Wizard of Xuefu".... but since were buds you, AND ONLY YOU, can just call me "Xue the Omnipotent One"..... of course the customary genuflecting will stay in place


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## yak sao

Xue Sheng said:


> ..... of course the customary genuflecting will stay in place



of course...sheesh, we're not barbarians.


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## tshadowchaser

I went back and looked at the site  for mr Scott Winocur once again .  To make this short and not bash anyone I do not know I will say that his statement that   "He is one of few martial arts practitioners with black belts in Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese, Korean, and Polynesian styles, and has received an honorary black belt in Shuai Chiao" dose not impress me I have those belts also and the Honorary degrees/belts do not mean squat.
His listing of his hall of fame credentials on his opening page tells me he has paid money to different organizations to give him important looking things to hang on his wall and impress people who know nothing of the arts.
Nice little long distance video of the kids to bad it is so far away I can't tell what they are doing.
                      --------------------------------------------------
Gabacho  if I missed you in the meet and greet area  sorry about that . Welcome to Martialtalk and I look forward to seeing more posts by you


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## clfsean

Can't disagree with any of that


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## TeaCup

Someone I trained with made a very good point one day after class when I asked about his credentials.  His reply:  When you can take my belt from me you can question it's legitimacy.


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## Flying Crane

TeaCup said:


> Someone I trained with made a very good point one day after class when I asked about his credentials.  His reply:  When you can take my belt from me you can question it's legitimacy.


So...he wouldn't answer your question?

Did you ask respectfully?  Were you simply asking who his teachers were and to what level he trained?  Respectfully?

Or were you challenging his rank?

And...he wouldn't give you an answer?

Theres probably more to the story here, but on its face I'm not impressed.


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## TeaCup

He did answer, it was a long time ago I don't remember the names he gave.

Was not challenging his legitimacy, and yes I did ask respectfully.

And I did try to take his belt.  On a number of occasions.  Never succeeded but got close once and only after I had trained with him for a long time.

He explained his point to mean this:  A belt is a symbol of proficiency, either given to you because someone else says your proficient, or you decide to wear it because you know you are proficient.  The bottom line is, if your going to question someone's proficiency in a given fighting art, if your not willing to try and take their belt, or if you are willing and you can't take the belt, your doubts about their proficiency have no real basis or merrit.


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## Flying Crane

TeaCup said:


> He did answer, it was a long time ago I don't remember the names he gave.
> 
> Was not challenging his legitimacy, and yes I did ask respectfully.
> 
> And I did try to take his belt.  On a number of occasions.  Never succeeded but got close once and only after I had trained with him for a long time.
> 
> He explained his point to mean this:  A belt is a symbol of proficiency, either given to you because someone else says your proficient, or you decide to wear it because you know you are proficient.  The bottom line is, if your going to question someone's proficiency in a given fighting art, if your not willing to try and take their belt, or if you are willing and you can't take the belt, your doubts about their proficiency have no real basis or merrit.


Oh, I understand the backstory behind such comments.


----------

