# Devastating Jab counter



## flashlock (Mar 4, 2007)

I just wanted to share a simple technique that is relatively rare, that everyone might have some use for.

It's for use against straight punches (non-hooks), like jabs, rear cross, or straight lead, and comes from the Filipino / JKD world (I believe this particular interpretation is from Paul Vunak).

First, you keep your guard up higher, palms out like a thai kick boxer.

As the straight punch comes at you, hop or shuffle back a little.  Then make a "comb your own hair motion", so your elbow points at the opponent's on-coming fist.

Basically, with your backward motion, your elbow is where you nose once was--so your opponent smashes his fist against your elbow.

Now, if worse comes to worse, the fist just skips off harmlessly, either way, you hopped back and are out of range.

I find that about 1 out of 5 attempts actually meet the fist in a position that would shatter the opponent's hand(please have the attacker ["feeder"] wear thick boxing gloves, he will still feel the effects of the elbow).

This is a very fast motion, and can stop even the quickest jab (I even tested this against a former Olympian boxer with positive results).

Give it a try!  (And please share any little techniques you might find interesting!)


----------



## KenpoTex (Mar 4, 2007)

I've used this in the past...works like a charm


----------



## cubankenpo (Mar 5, 2007)

thats not bad and when u train a lot u can do it fast and its sure , but u can study a little boxing , in it u can use different kind of blocks which u can adapt to u and they are easy and practice to do , remember that u can practice any Art but u need to see and study other different things , such as ,boxing, jiut j., wrestling, tae kwon do, filipines combats Arts (they are good) and so on,the more you see and study, the more u undrstand the way of fight, and the more u adapt things to u
chao bro 
Joe
good luck


----------



## Shaderon (Mar 5, 2007)

Sounds interesting, I must try that in sparring tonight.... :uhyeah: 

I'll try it against the guy that gets a bit carried away  :2xbird:


----------



## MJS (Mar 5, 2007)

Yes, I agree, it is a great destruction.  I've also seen this done with a parry to the punching arm, redirecting it into an inward elbow.

Mike


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 5, 2007)

It is a great limb destruction technique.


----------



## BallistikMike (Mar 5, 2007)

It is a limb destruction that works like a charm. 

However be aware that if you are using boxing gloves, training or competition sets, that it does make it seem like you catch the fist a lot more then you actually would. 

If you can, try tapping your hands up like a boxer/MMA fighter and use a 4oz glove. It will move closer to a street encounter and still protect the hand. That big 16oz sparring glove definitely gives a false sense of success.

Also remember limb destructions don't actually "Destroy" the hand most of the time. Vary rarely will it break the hand, cause pain and have the dude second guess himself throwing that shot yes. Of course that shouldn't matter in a street situation you would be fighting for your life so you should have already moved on to other nastiness by then.

Everything has what ifs and possibilities I just wanted to point out a few here.


----------



## kempo-vjj (Mar 5, 2007)

You can parry this punch as well down to a knee strike to the hand. Effects are a little more devastating but trickier to pull off.


----------



## rutherford (Mar 5, 2007)

I like this one as well.  Easy to do and fast.  

If you're the guy throwing the jab, your timing is off if this is available to your opponent.  Also, check to see how much you're telegraphing the punch.


----------



## still learning (Mar 5, 2007)

Hello, This technique of using your elbows to block a fist has been around for ages.

It is very effective if you can catch the punch with your elbows.  Most likely the other person will break something in their hand or cause enough damage from using that fist again.

Alot of martial art classes are usually not taught this technique, because of traditions and traditional ways.

Thank-you for sharing this with all of us.........Aloha


----------



## flashlock (Mar 5, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> Sounds interesting, I must try that in sparring tonight.... :uhyeah:
> 
> I'll try it against the guy that gets a bit carried away :2xbird:


 
Great!  But please make sure he is wearing heavy boxing gloves, or you could break his hand quite easily!!!


----------



## flashlock (Mar 5, 2007)

BallistikMike said:


> It is a limb destruction that works like a charm.
> 
> However be aware that if you are using boxing gloves, training or competition sets, that it does make it seem like you catch the fist a lot more then you actually would.
> 
> ...


 
Yes!  Great points (and I know they're true from experience...)


----------



## flashlock (Mar 5, 2007)

kempo-vjj said:


> You can parry this punch as well down to a knee strike to the hand. Effects are a little more devastating but trickier to pull off.


 
I'll try it--thank you!


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Mar 5, 2007)

It's the fight stopper you wish you had had in 8-12th grade: "Teacher, I wasn't fighting! He hurt himself punching my elbow! Ask the witnesses".


----------



## BallistikMike (Mar 6, 2007)

The hand will not break as easily as some may be saying.

Most of the time a glancing blow will occur and it will slip off deflecting outside your center line or inside/across your center line. Yes still causing pain and possibly second thoughts of throwing that shot full power at you again.

In essence it does destroy the limb...more like shot. Its similar to a wide receiver taking a huge hit over the middle, he will have a hard time doing it again knowing what is coming. 

Please do not trust instructors or people saying it works... ever. Test it yourself. Cause pain to each other (NOT injury) to understand what is needed for it to be effective. This is where athletics, resisting opponent's and dare I say MMA type of training comes in handy. You will see just how hard it is to pull off and you will then learn how to pull of this destruction in real time under real conditions.

I call it a cover block (US Modern combatives call it a rhino block) makes sense impaling the limbs on the horn of the elbow. Its also quite effective when it hits the inside of the arm/bicep and really gets you inside.

Like I said before huge what ifs and what nots in all of this.


----------



## Flatlander (Mar 6, 2007)

BallistikMike said:


> Most of the time a glancing blow will occur and it will slip off deflecting outside your center line or inside/across your center line.


This is where directing the incoming punch in with a parry into the elbow can help a great deal.  I use this type of a limb destruction, but in a slightly different way than explained.  What I'll do is actually attack the shot, essentially elbow striking the fist while directing the incoming punch with the parry.  It reduces the targetting uncertainty, while allowing you to enter.


----------



## BallistikMike (Mar 6, 2007)

Flatlander said:


> This is where directing the incoming punch in with a parry into the elbow can help a great deal.  I use this type of a limb destruction, but in a slightly different way than explained.  What I'll do is actually attack the shot, essentially elbow striking the fist while directing the incoming punch with the parry.  It reduces the targetting uncertainty, while allowing you to enter.




Drilling against a compliant opponent this is very possible. Even more so if the hands are slowed down do to lack of intent and heavy training gloves. 

However under athletic conditions and surprise real life self-defense situations  it is virtually impossible.

I understand where you are coming from guiding the punch to your elbow or meeting and greeting the hand with your elbow. 

It just doesn't happen under live conditions. 

Most trained fighters understand to retract the jab or punch, bad guys just dont care and will flail haymakers at your head. In which case because both your hands are tied up trying to destroy a hand that isn't even there (except in your training which is why you believe you can do this) the other hand is cleaning the cob webs inside your skull.

People need to understand when someone says they have used it, it was pulled off in training or drill work or sparring. It very rarely was pulled off under high stress conditons. Of course people will say that they did it to so and so bad guy and there is no proof. 

Breaking someones hand doesnt stop the threat either. Broken hands aren't even noticed until your home and the adrenaline has worn off. That needs to be taken into consideration.


----------



## Flatlander (Mar 6, 2007)

BallistikMike said:


> People need to understand when someone says they have used it, it was pulled off in training or drill work or sparring. It very rarely was pulled off under high stress conditons. Of course people will say that they did it to so and so bad guy and there is no proof.


Ah, I see.  You want to debate on the merits of testability.

Considering that there is no responsible way to test a technique under conditions more dangerous than a spar, I'll simply have to concede your point that I've never managed to execute the technique while someone was trying to kill me.  See, nobody's ever tried to kill me.  How 'bout you?

At any rate, you will fight how you train, yes?  I don't think that I'll be abandoning techniques that work for me under live sparring conditions because you've decided that they don't work for you.  Extrapolating your unverified results out to apply to me is illogical.

So, though I appreciate your feedback, please attempt to refrain from insinuating that I lack the ability to test methodologies on my own.  I consider it insulting and unnecessary.

And yes, I understand the difference between a compliant and non-compliant training partner.  Thanks, though.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 6, 2007)

If it keeps comming slow enough, kiss their fist. It'll piss 'em off.%-}
Sean


----------



## MattJ (Mar 6, 2007)

Some related video - 





 




 
(first part of the second video)


----------



## CoryKS (Mar 6, 2007)

flashlock said:


> As the straight punch comes at you, hop or shuffle back a little. Then make a "comb your own hair motion", so your elbow points at the opponent's on-coming fist.


 
If I'm envisioning this correctly, you would be in a good position to follow it with a forward shuffle/backfist, no?


----------



## BallistikMike (Mar 6, 2007)

Flatlander said:


> Ah, I see.  You want to debate on the merits of testability.
> 
> Considering that there is no responsible way to test a technique under conditions more dangerous than a spar, I'll simply have to concede your point that I've never managed to execute the technique while someone was trying to kill me.  See, nobody's ever tried to kill me.  How 'bout you?
> 
> ...



There is no debat on the merits of testability... you either do it or you dont. You say that you do which is great!

You will fight how you train to the point of panic. Panic coming at the instant when you realise that the training you have been doing is worthless (I am not saying you sir, I am saying in general). This is when raw guts and your physical being comes into play. 

Yes I have had the horror of facing a situation that made me choose if I wanted to make it home that night. It is flat out scary as hell.

Like I said before there are a ton of what if's and what not's and if you are capable of pulling off shots like impacting an elbow on a moving fist during your sparring sessions I commend you. In the sparring sessions I have been involved in it was one of the very few limb destructions that was ever pulled off and it was pulled off quite rare at that...very rare. Its why I believe its about the only one that would work standing. 

To clarify a point here. The fist was hit with the elbow, the fist being in an MMA glove and it blew right through the elbow during live contested sparring matches. Hands are not as fragile as people think and limb destructions/blocks aren't as fool proof as people think is all I am getting at. Now tying up your other hand trying to guide a punch onto the elbow has also been tried, what it does is leave the side of your head or body opened up for a life time. Trained fighters do understand and see openings like that. They do short change the jab or cross and fire off a hook or cross when that opening occurs.

All views are needed on the boards here and when I see things being posted that come across as being "spot on" or "a great technique" I just want to make it known from personal experience that it isn't so.

Should it be worked on... heck yeah. Just don't want people thinking its a fight ender because it is way far away from that.

Great post Flatlander! Thanks for picking my mind


----------



## flashlock (Mar 6, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> If I'm envisioning this correctly, you would be in a good position to follow it with a forward shuffle/backfist, no?


 
If the elbow hits the mark, they'll be distracted and you can pretty much pull anything off.  Vunak strongly suggests a straightblast.


----------



## flashlock (Mar 6, 2007)

MattJ said:


> Some related video -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I like the videos--they demonstrate the technique slightly differently than I learned it, but pretty much the same.  The Couture video looked like the "Rhino" interpretation--thanks for sharing the vid feeds!


----------



## flashlock (Mar 6, 2007)

BallistikMike said:


> There is no debat on the merits of testability... you either do it or you dont. You say that you do which is great!
> 
> You will fight how you train to the point of panic. Panic coming at the instant when you realise that the training you have been doing is worthless (I am not saying you sir, I am saying in general). This is when raw guts and your physical being comes into play.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your posts--you know what you're talking about!  The destructions are not as easy to pull off as it appears in sparring with gloves (as someone else mentioned), and it is more difficult to catch a fast jab, even as just a parry (it is possible, though I think it's too hard for me, personally).  And you're right, even if you do break their hand, they'll probably ignore it if they're out for your skull.  Good points to keep in mind when training!


----------



## flashlock (Mar 6, 2007)

Flatlander said:


> This is where directing the incoming punch in with a parry into the elbow can help a great deal. I use this type of a limb destruction, but in a slightly different way than explained. What I'll do is actually attack the shot, essentially elbow striking the fist while directing the incoming punch with the parry. It reduces the targetting uncertainty, while allowing you to enter.


 
Yes, it is possible, but very difficult (at least for me).  Vunak mentions this method but belives it's "impossible against a jab".  I think it would be best against a right cross?  I'm going to give it a shot vs light gloves, see what happens!  Thanks!


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 6, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is a great limb destruction technique.


 

I would agree with you Brian if done right it is very devastating


----------



## Flatlander (Mar 6, 2007)

flashlock said:


> Yes, it is possible, but very difficult (at least for me).  Vunak mentions this method but belives it's "impossible against a jab".  I think it would be best against a right cross?  I'm going to give it a shot vs light gloves, see what happens!  Thanks!


The jab, if thrown well, is pretty tough to do anything with.  I'm more of a duck and weaver, though the "combing the hair" method can be attempted, as you're not terribly committed to anything with that type of a motion.  The way that I learned to deal with a jab and transition into the destructions is to keep your hands up, forearms straight up in the air, elbows chin height and simply put your elbows into the path of the jab.  Yes, certainly more likely to be effective against a comitted cross than a jab.


			
				[B said:
			
		

> BallistikMike[/B]]Now tying up your other hand trying to guide a punch onto the elbow has also been tried, what it does is leave the side of your head or body opened up for a life time.


I can't argue with that, but the risks can be mitigated using body positioning - use the right elbow vs. a right cross, left vs. left.  This way, the attacker would need to cross his own line to follow up.  Of course, one wouldn't want to over-commit to this movement.  As you had mentioned previously, that punch isn't going to dangle, in fact, the attacker may even change up the attack.  In that circumstance, it's better to be fluid and able to mirror or respond to whatever is being fed.  Admittedly, this isn't something that should be attempted without a great deal of practice.  A minor miscalculation in timing or aim can cause issues....


----------



## jjfighter (Mar 7, 2007)

Sounds like the "Crazy Monkey Defense" 




http://youtube.com/results?search_query=crazy+monkey+defense&search=Search


----------

