# They are back!!!



## spaced (Sep 8, 2015)

Cant believe these guys are still filming and posting their embarrassing videos!!!






Enjoy!


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 8, 2015)

Dunning-Kruger effect at its finest.

At least they're getting some exercise.


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## The Great Gigsy (Sep 8, 2015)

Is this suppose to be serious?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2015)

I don't know what to say so I'm going to agree with Tony and say ."At least they're getting some exercise."  

I will however say the last demo of the guy who hits the board with his fist but doesn't break it is classic.  From the sound of it, it seems like someone switched boards on him because that's the sound the bones make when it hits construction grade wood. The part that put a grin on my face was how he played off the pain of hitting that board.  By the way his hand slid on the wood, he probably lost some skin.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 8, 2015)

I truly want to say something about what I saw on the video but I am without the  words that can describe how absolutely horrid I found the whole thing.
What ever happened to the standards black belts where held to many years ago

....................
Edit  I never made it through the whole 7 minutes I just could not watch it anymore


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## The Great Gigsy (Sep 8, 2015)

I  will say that it gave me a good laugh. Which was welcomed as it's been a trying day dealing with the 3yo.


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I truly want to say something about what I saw on the video but I am without the  words that can describe how absolutely horrid I found the whole thing.
> What ever happened to the standards black belts where held to many years ago
> 
> ....................
> Edit  I never made it through the whole 7 minutes I just could not watch it anymore



Welcome to the era of instant gratification where everyone wins, and you can feel like you've accomplished something without doing anything at all. Because of that, the black belt in Karate means next to nothing.

The old masters are rolling in their graves.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 8, 2015)

Im not sure why people get such a kick out of making fun of these dudes.  Who cares they are having fun and enjoy what they do.   Good for them.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 8, 2015)

Sorry I was not making fun of them I am simply saying that what I see is an insult to those who studied and made the grade many years ago.
The fact that they seem to be having fun is a different point of how demonstrations and testing is done in some places from what would have been acceptable years ago vs today


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## Hanzou (Sep 8, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Im not sure why people get such a kick out of making fun of these dudes.



Because they look like idiots.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 8, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Because they look like idiots.


So do two dudes rolling and flailing on a mat.  So what's you point


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## ballen0351 (Sep 8, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Sorry I was not making fun of them I am simply saying that what I see is an insult to those who studied and made the grade many years ago.


Im not sure how what a bunch of guys you don't know doing something you don't train in is an insult.  


> The fact that they seem to be having fun is a different point of how demonstrations and testing is done in some places from what would have been acceptable years ago vs today


So you dont have fun training?  Then what's the point?  For a vast majority of people martial arts are just a hobby.  If they enjoy their hobby how does that have any effect on you?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Im not sure why people get such a kick out of making fun of these dudes.  Who cares they are having fun and enjoy what they do.   Good for them.


  It's just Hanzou.. most people see the danger in it.  It's all fun until one of these guys think their martial arts training can actually get them out of a fight. It's all fun until they learn the hard way that someone was taking advantage of them and they wasted all of that money and their time training incorrectly.
Even hobbies have standards.  You wouldn't want to learn sky diving from a fake sky diver instructor.  So why would you want to learn martial arts from a fake martial art instructor?


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## Tez3 (Sep 9, 2015)

This goes back to what I said before on another thread, it's unfair to laugh at them, rant at the instructors not them. Do the students know what they are doing, do they know they can't defend themselves or do they think that is how training is supposed to be? They meet the standards set by the instructors, the standards of the school presumably. that would know better should make us sad/humble/thankful whatever but not crease up on laughter.
If you don't like what they do and feel strongly contact them, if you don't feel that strongly stop being unkind by posting the videos up here _so you can feel superior_ which is really why people watch and post this up. " oh wow look how funny these guys are and how much better I am" Really? it's best to shut up and train because there's always someone better than you out there and leave others to do what they will.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 9, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Im not sure how what a bunch of guys you don't know doing something you don't train in is an insult.
> 
> So you dont have fun training?  Then what's the point?  For a vast majority of people martial arts are just a hobby.  If they enjoy their hobby how does that have any effect on you?


I haven't watched the vid, yet, but if you see bad martial arts training, it should concern you that these people are passing this on to their children, and their children's children.


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## Tez3 (Sep 9, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I haven't watched the vid, yet, but if you see bad martial arts training, it should concern you that these people are passing this on to their children, and their children's children.



Concern is one thing, using them for a cheap laugh is another.


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## Gnarlie (Sep 9, 2015)

Look at the website for the WMAA group and some of the things that they have achieved in service of the local community. Not everything is about physical / martial skill. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> So do two dudes rolling and flailing on a mat.  So what's you point



If you're flailing around on the mat, you need to find a better grappling gym.



JowGaWolf said:


> It's just Hanzou.. most people see the danger in it.  It's all fun until one of these guys think their martial arts training can actually get them out of a fight. It's all fun until they learn the hard way that someone was taking advantage of them and they wasted all of that money and their time training incorrectly.
> Even hobbies have standards.  You wouldn't want to learn sky diving from a fake sky diver instructor.  So why would you want to learn martial arts from a fake martial art instructor?



I didn't start this thread.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 9, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If you're flailing around on the mat, you need to find a better grappling gym.


Irrelevent


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## Hanzou (Sep 9, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Irrelevent



Actually it's very relevant. Those poor souls in that video should find better karate dojos.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 9, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Actually it's very relevant. Those poor souls in that video should find better karate dojos.


Why?  perhaps they enjoy what they do and where they train


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I haven't watched the vid, yet, but if you see bad martial arts training, it should concern you that these people are passing this on to their children, and their children's children.


  I'm more concerned at how it makes real martial arts look and how it misinforms the public.  Then I have to put up with the "Joe Rogans" in the world because of it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 9, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Look at the website for the WMAA group and some of the things that they have achieved in service of the local community. Not everything is about physical / martial skill.


No excuse for bad techniques and training.  I train in kung fu and bad technique and form increases the risk of damaging the knees and other joints.  This is why  some people say that kung fu is bad for the joints and causes pain to the knees and elbows.  When you are talking about breaking boards, 90% technique and 10% conditioning, if you get lazy with either one of those you'll increase the risk that you'll hurt yourself, like the guy at the end of the video did.  Sparring with someone who has bad techniques means that the person aims for your stomach but kicks you in the groin, or in the knee.  I don't know how karate is, but for kung fu, proper technique and training is as much about safety as it is about kung fu.


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## Tez3 (Sep 9, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> No excuse for bad techniques and training.  I train in kung fu and bad technique and form increases the risk of damaging the knees and other joints.  This is why  some people say that kung fu is bad for the joints and causes pain to the knees and elbows.  When you are talking about breaking boards, 90% technique and 10% conditioning, if you get lazy with either one of those you'll increase the risk that you'll hurt yourself, like the guy at the end of the video did.  Sparring with someone who has bad techniques means that the person aims for your stomach but kicks you in the groin, or in the knee.  I don't know how karate is, but for kung fu, proper technique and training is as much about safety as it is about kung fu.



Good points and even more reasons not to use them as objects of amusement.


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## Gnarlie (Sep 10, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> No excuse for bad techniques and training.  I train in kung fu and bad technique and form increases the risk of damaging the knees and other joints.  This is why  some people say that kung fu is bad for the joints and causes pain to the knees and elbows.  When you are talking about breaking boards, 90% technique and 10% conditioning, if you get lazy with either one of those you'll increase the risk that you'll hurt yourself, like the guy at the end of the video did.  Sparring with someone who has bad techniques means that the person aims for your stomach but kicks you in the groin, or in the knee.  I don't know how karate is, but for kung fu, proper technique and training is as much about safety as it is about kung fu.



I don't see anything potentially damaging in what the WMAA group is doing, it just looks very 'thrashy' and not very controlled.

There are also some things in the video that look silly, but only because they lack context. One of the exercises is a pair of kids running a form, where they have clearly been told that they have to replace every 90 degree turn with a 360 as a focus challenge. Then someone has filmed the resulting confusion, and stuck it in a McDojo video essentially saying ' look at these morons'. 

These shaming videos are mean spirited, not really fair, and unseemly behaviour for martial artists.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 10, 2015)

As Tez says, there's no point in making fun of the students involved. They're obviously doing what they've been taught. I do feel kind of bad for them that they have been so thoroughly misled by their instructors. I'm also kind of morbidly curious as to how those instructors started down the path that led them to teaching this stuff.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I don't see anything potentially damaging in what the WMAA group is doing, it just looks very 'thrashy' and not very controlled.


There are a lot of things wrong just on the basic level of stances alone. Kicks and blocking are also done incorrectly.  On top of that everyone that is performing has a black belt on, when it's clear that they don't have "black belt" skills.  The damage comes on a physical level to them by doing techniques incorrectly and the damage comes to the martial arts community because that's who they are representing.  When people say that your style of martial arts sucks, it's because they watch videos of people doing bad techniques while wearing a black belt.
This makes me want to do karate





The video with the bad martial arts just makes me want to get a black belt the easy way, because if these guys can get one then I surely can get one with ease.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> These shaming videos are mean spirited, not really fair, and unseemly behaviour for martial artists.


 I'm not sure. The well known old school martial arts teachers in almost every fighting system weren't known for being kind or beneath shaming.  The only difference is that they shamed the instructor for teaching trash.  I think there's a romanticized image of martial arts of today that isn't realistic to how martial arts were actually handled back then during the times of the famous martial art teachers.  If I had to guess, I would say shamming was very much part of martial art behavior and it wasn't until modern times that it became something of noble character.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As Tez says, there's no point in making fun of the students involved. They're obviously doing what they've been taught. I do feel kind of bad for them that they have been so thoroughly misled by their instructors. I'm also kind of morbidly curious as to how those instructors started down the path that led them to teaching this stuff.


  Part is because of money, the other part is because of the student. Not every student is being misled. Some students know they are being misled and they don't care, because they just want a black belt.


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## Zero (Sep 11, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Im not sure how what a bunch of guys you don't know doing something you don't train in is an insult.
> 
> So you dont have fun training?  Then what's the point?  For a vast majority of people martial arts are just a hobby.  If they enjoy their hobby how does that have any effect on you?


ballen, you are a good guy and your point is well made.  I don't know what it says about myself but I couldn't help laughing when I saw it, to me it all seemed like clear, plain unadulterated madness gone wild under a full moon.

That said, I am not dissing what they are doing (just laughing at the way they are doing it) and if they are putting stuff back into the community, well that is great - not enough of that these days!  I try but could do a lot more in that area myself, I tell myself.

To be frank, I don't care that whatever they are doing, if it is meant to be some kind of martial art or some form of karate, resembles nothing I can really relate to.  That don't bother me a hill o beans.   But, sometimes it is hard not to laugh at others, at least for me.   And sometimes, others are a bit overly sensitive when they are laughed at - why should they care?  Get on with life and live it.


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## Zero (Sep 11, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm more concerned at how it makes real martial arts look and how it misinforms the public.  Then I have to put up with the "Joe Rogans" in the world because of it.


No, you don't have to put up with all those Joe Rogans.  Ignore them and get on with what you are doing.

Why do you care what external parties think about karate or your particular martial art.  I would prefer to be deadly-on-the-down-low rather than back to the days where everyone was like, "woa, he does _karate_, he can like kill ya with one finger"


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

Zero said:


> No, you don't have to put up with all those Joe Rogans. Ignore them and get on with what you are doing.
> 
> Why do you care what external parties think about karate or your particular martial art. I would prefer to be deadly-on-the-down-low rather than back to the days where everyone was like, "woa, he does _karate_, he can like kill ya with one finger"


  I used to think this way, but the problem is. If I only let one story be told then only one story will be known.   If you don't tell about what you know, what you understand, and what you do then then only lies will exist.  Ignoring things is good but not always.  If you see a danger in something then why not point it out.  If you hear one race of people talk incorrectly about another race of people then why not point it out.  

These days no one cares if you do a traditional martial art because they aren't scared of it.  You would be safer not saying you practice a martial, that why you don't have some guy testing you because he thinks your martial arts is trash.  Saying that you do karate or some other style of martial arts will just give someone a reason to beat you up to prove to everyone the Joe Rogan is right and that your martial arts is trash.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 11, 2015)

There is no good reason for anyone to be scared of me or what I do.  And I don't hang out in places, or around people, who are likely to try and beat me up just because of an activity that I do in my spare time.  If that is happening to you, you need new friends and a new place to hang out.

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.  It really really doesn't.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It really really doesn't.


 It does matter what people think of you.  That's self-defense 101.  If you look like a victim or an easy target then predators will treat you as such.  This has nothing to do with who you hang out with or who your friends are.  If you go out in public then you are hanging around places where stuff like that happens.  You don't get to choose who is around you when you are in public.  People normally don't approach me to start trouble because I naturally look mean and naturally look like more than what most people want to deal with. But I've worked in inner city youth development centers where some of the neighborhood drug dealers didn't like me being there, because I was helping youth stay off the streets and gain computer skills. Not only did they not like me, but they were actually trying to recruit people to jump me after work. They would literally come in the building and point me out to the people that they were trying to convenience to beat me up.   Nothing became of it because, like I said I naturally look mean and naturally look like more than what most people want to deal with.

Police have to deal with similar issues everyday and none of that has to do with who their friends are. And it matters to them what people think of them because it can mean the difference between being attacked and being respected.



Flying Crane said:


> It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It really really doesn't.


  This is the same attitude that women have in reference to how they dress. The truth of the matter is that IT SHOULDN'T MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS, but in reality, it does matter.


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## Gnarlie (Sep 11, 2015)

People are welcome to underestimate me anytime. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane (Sep 11, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> It does matter what people think of you.  That's self-defense 101.  If you look like a victim or an easy target then predators will treat you as such.  This has nothing to do with who you hang out with or who your friends are.  If you go out in public then you are hanging around places where stuff like that happens.  You don't get to choose who is around you when you are in public.  People normally don't approach me to start trouble because I naturally look mean and naturally look like more than what most people want to deal with. But I've worked in inner city youth development centers where some of the neighborhood drug dealers didn't like me being there, because I was helping youth stay off the streets and gain computer skills. Not only did they not like me, but they were actually trying to recruit people to jump me after work. They would literally come in the building and point me out to the people that they were trying to convenience to beat me up.   Nothing became of it because, like I said I naturally look mean and naturally look like more than what most people want to deal with.
> 
> Police have to deal with similar issues everyday and none of that has to do with who their friends are. And it matters to them what people think of them because it can mean the difference between being attacked and being respected.
> 
> This is the same attitude that women have in reference to how they dress. The truth of the matter is that IT SHOULDN'T MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS, but in reality, it does matter.


What does this have to do with people needing to be afraid of TMA, or people picking a fight with you just because that is what you do?

And how women may dress is an entirely different discussion.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> People are welcome to underestimate me anytime.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Better than people overestimating you.  Instead of fighting you with fist because they think they can beat you that way is better than them thinking that they need to bring 5 people and guns in order to deal with you.  I remember as a teen I overestimated a guy that wanted me to beat me up because someone told him I stole or broke his skateboard (when I was 13).  I slowly let fear get to me about what was going to happen to me because this guys was 3 years older than me, taller an stronger.  My game plan was to take a knife with me and if he tried anything I would stab him.  I had the knife in my hand and was ready to walk out the door. At the last minute I changed my mind, put the knife back and went to face my fears without a weapon.  As a 13 year old that was a defining moment for me. When I confronted the guy, nothing of what I was fearing came true, he actually listen to me explain how what was being said about me wasn't true.  Had I continued to let my fear get the best of me, this guy would have been at risk of being stabbed just because I was afraid.  The point is some people don't back down when they overestimate someone. There are people who will weapon up if they think the danger is greater than what they can handle.

If I had to choose, then I rather be underestimated than for someone to think they need a shotgun to deal with me. lol


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> What does this have to do with people needing to be afraid of TMA, or people picking a fight with you just because that is what you do?
> 
> And how women may dress is an entirely different discussion.



I didn't say people need to be afraid of TMA. But there are people who don't respect TMA and will go out of the way to fight you just to prove their assumptions about TMA effectiveness.  I've seen this first hand more than once, which is why I brought it up.  The thing about how women dress was just to stress the incorrect assumption "that it doesn't matter what people think about you." And to think about your martial arts with the same mentality "that it doesn't matter what people think about your martial arts." is just as incorrect.  I guarantee that there are a lot of instructors who care about how others see their martial arts.  I bet they also care about how others see their students. 

To say that it doesn't matter what people think about you or what you do is not reality.  Even if you don't care, someone else will.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 11, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't say people need to be afraid of TMA. But there are people who don't respect TMA and will go out of the way to fight you just to prove their assumptions about TMA effectiveness.  I've seen this first hand more than once, which is why I brought it up.  The thing about how women dress was just to stress the incorrect assumption "that it doesn't matter what people think about you." And to think about your martial arts with the same mentality "that it doesn't matter what people think about your martial arts." is just as incorrect.  I guarantee that there are a lot of instructors who care about how others see their martial arts.  I bet they also care about how others see their students.
> 
> To say that it doesn't matter what people think about you or what you do is not reality.  Even if you don't care, someone else will.


Post number 32, your first sentence of paragraph two.  Go re-read what you wrote.

As for the comment on how women dress, again that is a different discusision and has no place in this context.

As for what people think of TMA or however we might want to phrase it, I stand by my comments.  It doesn't matter.

And if someone else chooses to care, let them.  I still don't.


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## Gnarlie (Sep 11, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Better than people overestimating you.  Instead of fighting you with fist because they think they can beat you that way is better than them thinking that they need to bring 5 people and guns in order to deal with you.  I remember as a teen I overestimated a guy that wanted me to beat me up because someone told him I stole or broke his skateboard (when I was 13).  I slowly let fear get to me about what was going to happen to me because this guys was 3 years older than me, taller an stronger.  My game plan was to take a knife with me and if he tried anything I would stab him.  I had the knife in my hand and was ready to walk out the door. At the last minute I changed my mind, put the knife back and went to face my fears without a weapon.  As a 13 year old that was a defining moment for me. When I confronted the guy, nothing of what I was fearing came true, he actually listen to me explain how what was being said about me wasn't true.  Had I continued to let my fear get the best of me, this guy would have been at risk of being stabbed just because I was afraid.  The point is some people don't back down when they overestimate someone. There are people who will weapon up if they think the danger is greater than what they can handle.
> 
> If I had to choose, then I rather be underestimated than for someone to think they need a shotgun to deal with me. lol



So let people think what they want about whatever style, and they will underestimate if it comes to that.



JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't say people need to be afraid of TMA. But there are people who don't respect TMA and will go out of the way to fight you just to prove their assumptions about TMA effectiveness.  I've seen this first hand more than once, which is why I brought it up.  The thing about how women dress was just to stress the incorrect assumption "that it doesn't matter what people think about you." And to think about your martial arts with the same mentality "that it doesn't matter what people think about your martial arts." is just as incorrect.  I guarantee that there are a lot of instructors who care about how others see their martial arts.  I bet they also care about how others see their students.
> 
> To say that it doesn't matter what people think about you or what you do is not reality.  Even if you don't care, someone else will.



Don't go around broadcasting that you practice MA, and this is not an issue - at times when MA becomes needed, it is better a surprise.

It only matters what people think if you want them to think you are awesome.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> So let people think what they want about whatever style, and they will underestimate if it comes to that


 For me where I live, I don't want to be underestimated either because then I would be close to being perceived as a potential victim, an easy target. I always try to project a balance of not being weak, not being a threat, and not trying to be the tough guy in the room.



Gnarlie said:


> Don't go around broadcasting that you practice MA, and this is not an issue - at times when MA becomes needed, it is better a surprise.
> 
> It only matters what people think if you want them to think you are awesome.


I agree with this, so I don't going around broadcasting that I practice MA. I actually teach my son this as well because I don't need violent teens trying to size him up. I also don't see this as an issue from students who are from schools that are focused on self-defense.  The schools that only care about the color of the belts tend to have students who brag about their MA achievement and many of those people don't actually have the fighting skills that match the color of their belts.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 12, 2015)

I went back to the op and showed the video to a few different groups of people .  Some of these people studied some sort of martial art some did not.  Not one of the 15 people I showed it to with the exception of one made it through watching the video. 
All asked what the hell that crap was supposed to be. All expressed the opinion that things like they watched where part of the reason most people feel martial arts and people who claim to be black belts are like those who play softball or soccer ( just weekend hobbyists) .
The one person who made it all the way through said it was the best comedy they had seen in years and wanted to know if it was supposed to be a parody of Karate or if it was for real.
Why do I care because I love what I do and the effort people once put into the arts. The instructors for those in the video and the heads of whatever organizations they belong to should be taken behind a barn and horse whipped for allowing crap like that in the video to be called karate.  Anyone not offend by that video should look at their own training and question what they feel a black belt is and how they feel a black belt should represent the art they study.
The opinion above is mine and mine alone and is no way the opinion of Martialtalk and it's owners or sponsors


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2015)

Here's a few videos to put the OP video into perspective. Train correctly, train hard.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 12, 2015)

My utmost respect to those in the video above.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I went back to the op and showed the video to a few different groups of people .  Some of these people studied some sort of martial art some did not.  Not one of the 15 people I showed it to with the exception of one made it through watching the video.
> All asked what the hell that crap was supposed to be. All expressed the opinion that things like they watched where part of the reason most people feel martial arts and people who claim to be black belts are like those who play softball or soccer ( just weekend hobbyists) .
> The one person who made it all the way through said it was the best comedy they had seen in years and wanted to know if it was supposed to be a parody of Karate or if it was for real.
> Why do I care because I love what I do and the effort people once put into the arts. The instructors for those in the video and the heads of whatever organizations they belong to should be taken behind a barn and horse whipped for allowing crap like that ie video to be called karate.  Anyone not offend by that video should look at their own training and question what they feel a black belt is and how they feel a black belt should represent the art they study.
> The opinion above is mine and mine alone and is no way the opinion of Martialtalk and it's owners or sponsors


You do realize most people training in Martial arts are weekend hobbiest right? There are very very few who will ever use what they learn in real life to defend themselves.  What these guys do has zero impact on what you do.  If you think it does that's is more your issue then theirs.  To say their instructors should be whipped because they don't look like you is silly, and to say anyone not offended should look at themselves is nonsense I don't base my worth or value my training off of what other people do.  Especially when I don't know them, don't train with them,  have never met them.  There are no "standards" or license for karate who are you to tell them they are not doing karate and more importantly to me why do you even care what they do.  I find it even more sad your so worked up over it you sought out 15 people to help you make fun of them as if you base your self worth off showing your karate is "better"


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> You do realize most people training in Martial arts are weekend hobbiest right?


Not true.  



ballen0351 said:


> There are very very few who will ever use what they learn in real life to defend themselves.


This is a good thing.  No one goes to a gun range with the goal of missing the target just because they don't think they will ever have to shoot someone.  Same thing with people who want to be able to use martial arts to protect themselves.  They don't go there an mess around just because they don't think they will fight.  They go there and learn how to fight just in case they actually have to fight one day.



ballen0351 said:


> I don't base my worth or value my training off of what other people do.


 It not about how you base value on your training it's how other people base the value.  If you wanted to open your own martial arts school then videos like this have a direct affect on how people see the value of your fighting system, that in turns hurts your ability to be a successful business.  Not only that, the more of the nonsense that is out there, the less chance your fighting system has of surviving throughout time.  So what other people think of your fighting system matters and how you represent your fighting system matters.



ballen0351 said:


> There are no "standards" or license for karate who are you to tell them they are not doing karate and more importantly to me why do you even care what they do.


  I don't even take karate and I know this is wrong, because this is wrong for kung fu as well.  There are standards and licenses for martial arts.  This is recognized through lineage and the way that is works is that there is a panel of qualified teachers that will determine if you are of high enough quality to be a teacher yourself and to represent the fighting system in an honorable way. Lineage is a big thing in the martial arts world and you can easily pick out the frauds just by looking at the lineage.  There is more to the tite of Sifu or Sensei than just knowing the forms / kata and neither title is given lightly.  Although there are some people who give themselves that those titles without actually earning it through the correct channels.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

in





JowGaWolf said:


> Not true.


Lol ok,your probably right most people taking martial arts are kids 



> This is a good thing.  No one goes to a gun range with the goal of missing the target just because they don't think they will ever have to shoot someone.  Same thing with people who want to be able to use martial arts to protect themselves.  They don't go there an mess around just because they don't think they will fight.  They go there and learn how to fight just in case they actually have to fight one day.


And shocker some people don't train martial art for self defense at all. Some do it for exercise, some do it because it's fun, there are hundreds of reasons why someone trains


> It not about how you base value on your training it's how other people base the value.  If you wanted to open your own martial arts school then videos like this have a direct affect on how people see the value of your fighting system, that in turns hurts your ability to be a successful business.  Not only that, the more of the nonsense that is out there, the less chance your fighting system has of surviving throughout time.  So what other people think of your fighting system matters and how you represent your fighting system matters.


I don't give two flying sticks of butter what other people think about my style or system.  I don't train for them I train for me.  These has been bad martial arts schools as long as there have been good martial arts schools. A few videos on YouTube won't change that.


> I don't even take karate and I know this is wrong, because this is wrong for kung fu as well.  There are standards and licenses for martial arts.


Nonsense I can start a school tomorrow all I need is a permit from the county and a karate school is considered a health club by the state so I need a perit for a health club from the state.  Then I can make up and teach anything I want.  I can call it whatever I want and make it as off the wall silly as i want.  If I have after school programs and great marketing Id make money


> This is recognized through lineage and the way that is works is that there is a panel of qualified teachers that will determine if you are of high enough quality to be a teacher yourself and to represent the fighting system in an honorable way. Lineage is a big thing in the martial arts world and you can easily pick out the frauds just by looking at the lineage.  There is more to the tite of Sifu or Sensei than just knowing the forms / kata and neither title is given lightly.  Although there are some people who give themselves that those titles without actually earning it through the correct channels.


Nonsense do you think the soccer Mom looking for someplace to drop off little Johnny for a few hours after school cares about lineage?  Most people look for the closest school and go.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 13, 2015)

rather than trying to explain what I see as Martial Arts vs sport arts and exercise classes vs supposed to be martial arts,  I will just agree to disagree on what the video showed.
At no point was I trying to make fun of the people in that video nor did I show it to others to make fun of it rather I was looking for other opinions of what people observed  and their thought on the video.  To me the fact that most people can see no redeeming value in what was shown as far as being effective or that they feel it was nonsense should say much.
If the people in the video and their instructors are happy I'm happy for them but to call   what they are doing a martial art is another story but it is also based on what one dose or has done in the arts. 
So to each their own


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> rather than trying to explain what I see as Martial Arts vs sport arts and exercise classes vs supposed to be martial arts,  I will just agree to disagree on what the video showed.
> At no point was I trying to make fun of the people in that video nor did I show it to others to make fun of it rather I was looking for other opinions of what people observed  and their thought on the video.  To me the fact that most people can see no redeeming value in what was shown as far as being effective or that they feel it was nonsense should say much.
> If the people in the video and their instructors are happy I'm happy for them but to call   what they are doing a martial art is another story but it is also based on what one dose or has done in the arts.
> So to each their own


Fair enough
So who gets to be the gate keeper on what is and isn't allowed to be called a martial art.  If I want to do ballet and call it martial arts who really cares


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Nonsense I can start a school tomorrow all I need is a permit from the county and a karate school is considered a health club by the state so I need a perit for a health club from the state. Then I can make up and teach anything I want. I can call it whatever I want and make it as off the wall silly as i want. If I have after school programs and great marketing Id make money


 You should have said this statement as your first statement in this discussion.  Yes you can do all of this, but all of that doesn't make you a martial arts school.


ballen0351 said:


> Nonsense do you think the soccer Mom looking for someplace to drop off little Johnny for a few hours after school cares about lineage? Most people look for the closest school and go.



I didn't see kids in the OP video.
Most martial art schools that teach real martial arts to kids don't run a babysitting service. If that child can't get with the program then that child is removed from the school because it interferes with the training of the kids who are there to learn real martial arts.
If you only care about the exercise and not the martial arts then you can save money by taking a fitness kickboxing class, no belt, no testing fees, no uniform. Just exercise. It just makes more sense to spend money by taking a fitness class.  As a matter of fact many martial arts schools have martial arts inspired fitness classes that are separate from their actual martial art class. Why waste money on the belt and uniform if you are only doing it for fitness?
If I only care about a baby sitter for my child an my child's fitness then this is what I'm looking for.





If I want my child to learn Martial arts then this is what I'm looking for


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> You should have said this statement as your first statement in this discussion.  Yes you can do all of this, but all of that doesn't make you a martial arts school.


Really? Because all I need are some stickers on my window and poor "martial arts" is now written across the front of my dojo.  It may not be a place you or I would train but again there are no rules or sanctioning body that issues  a martial arts licesnse


> I didn't see kids in the OP video.




So 1 video and now you know everything about that school?


> [*]Most martial art schools that teach real martial arts to kids don't run a babysitting service. If that child can't get with the program then that child is removed from the school because it interferes with the training of the kids who are there to learn real martial arts.


Most commercial martal arts school need to pay rent and know kids =$


> [*]If you only care about the exercise and not the martial arts then you can save money by taking a fitness kickboxing class, no belt, no testing fees, no uniform. Just exercise. It just makes more sense to spend money by taking a fitness class.  As a matter of fact many martial arts schools have martial arts inspired fitness classes that are separate from their actual martial art class. Why waste money on the belt and uniform if you are only doing it for fitness?



So now you get to tell people how to spend their money? Stop dude pleanty of people train for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to so with self defense 


> If I only care about a baby sitter for my child an my child's fitness then this is what I'm looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's great but YOU are not everyone.  I ran a martial arts program after school as an outreach program to keep kids doing something productive.  It turned into a free babysitter for parents to drop off kids they could careless what I was teaching. My church runs a summer youth program.  Parents that don't even believe in God drop off their kids just to get a free babysitter.  I coach my son's football team several of the kids don't even want to play.  They just get dropped off so the parents can have a break for 2 hours a night twice a week.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Fair enough
> So who gets to be the gate keeper on what is and isn't allowed to be called a martial art.  If I want to do ballet and call it martial arts who really cares


Statements like that are a perfect reason to care about lineage and if the teacher was appointed a teacher or is he/she a "self made" teacher.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Statements like that are a perfect reason to care about lineage and if the teacher was appointed a teacher or is he/she a "self made" teacher.


I agree I care about what I'm learning.  When I was going full time to my Goju classes I drove almost 2 hours each way and passed several other places because they taught traditional Goju that I could trace back to the founder.  
But I'm not the norm.  Most people are not  like you and I.  We spend our free time on martial arts forums reading studying posting about martial arts. A vast majority of people that train dont.  They look for the closest school or most convenient. There is nothing wrong with that its their time and their money. But you seem to think most people think of this as more then just a hobby and honestly it's not.  
You care about lineage so do others on this forum but the general public not so much.  Your worried about others thinking martial arts are a joke well I hate to break it too you but most adults already do.  When I leave work and am running late and throw on gi pants in the locker room at work to get to class guys make jokes. These are guys that know I can fight and seek me out on calls as backupif they think it's going to get physical.  It just is. Martial arts are viewed as a kids thing to most people


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> So 1 video and now you know everything about that school?


I know enough about martial arts know incorrect stances and why they are incorrect, incorrect side kicks and why they are incorrect and the damage that can happen because of incorrect kicking.  So with that alone I don't need to know about school to know about incorrect movement.

Do you need to know about a driver or the school he learned from to know that driving on the wrong side of the road is incorrect?



ballen0351 said:


> Most commercial martal arts school need to pay rent and know kids =$


  You can pay rent and make dollars without misleading people.  If it's not a martial art then don't call it one.  If you have a martial arts fitness class "kung fu fit" then you have to be straight forward with the person and let them know that "kung fu fit" is not a martial arts even though it uses some martial art exercises.   Billy Blanks never tried to pass his Tae Bo kickboxing class as a martial art and he made millions.



ballen0351 said:


> So now you get to tell people how to spend their money? Stop dude pleanty of people train for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to so with self defense


 People can spend money on whatever they want to spend their money on.   My statement as a parent just simply pointed out logic in terms of what I look for and the fact that you saw so many kids in that fitness class means that other parents feel the same way.  It just doesn't make sense for me to pay all of that money for belts and testing, when my child could be living it up in that fitness class doing things that the normal martial arts students aren't doing.  It also shows in those kids faces that they aren't thinking about martial arts, they are just enjoying running around.  But kids can't run around like that in a real martial arts class where other students are kicking and punching.  The video with the kids running around don't call the video a martial arts video. They call it a children's fitness class.



ballen0351 said:


> It turned into a free babysitter for parents to drop off kids they could careless what I was teaching. My church runs a summer youth program. Parents that don't even believe in God drop off their kids just to get a free babysitter. I coach my son's football team several of the kids don't even want to play. They just get dropped off so the parents can have a break for 2 hours a night twice a week.


 I worked with kids for more than 20 years and during that time I ran youth development centers, summer camps, museum tours, taught self-defense classes to inner city children, taught computer classes, and now I'm assisting in teaching kids get basic kung fu techniques such as stances correct.  And every parent child that was involved in that care about the quality of instruction their child was getting. They wanted their children to learn something of value and to be safe while doing it.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I know enough about martial arts know incorrect stances and why they are incorrect, incorrect side kicks and why they are incorrect and the damage that can happen because of incorrect kicking.  So with that alone I don't need to know about school to know about incorrect movement.
> 
> Do you need to know about a driver or the school he learned from to know that driving on the wrong side of the road is incorrect?


What's that have to do with kids? You said you saw no kids in the OP


> You can pay rent and make dollars without misleading people.  If it's not a martial art then don't call it one.  If you have a martial arts fitness class "kung fu fit" then you have to be straight forward with the person and let them know that "kung fu fit" is not a martial arts even though it uses some martial art exercises.   Billy Blanks never tried to pass his Tae Bo kickboxing class as a martial art and he made millions.


So who decides what is and isn't a martial art?  I can call it whatever I want it a my school.  Its up to the consumer to decide if I'm successful or not


> People can spend money on whatever they want to spend their money on.   My statement as a parent just simply pointed out logic in terms of what I look for and the fact that you saw so many kids in that fitness class means that other parents feel the same way.  It just doesn't make sense for me to pay all of that money for belts and testing, when my child could be living it up in that fitness class doing things that the normal martial arts students aren't doing.  It also shows in those kids faces that they aren't thinking about martial arts, they are just enjoying running around.  But kids can't run around like that in a real martial arts class where other students are kicking and punching.  The video with the kids running around don't call the video a martial arts video. They call it a children's fitness class.


And again your not the license department, they can run, there school anyway they want.  


> I worked with kids for more than 20 years and during that time I ran youth development centers, summer camps, museum tours, taught self-defense classes to inner city children, taught computer classes, and now I'm assisting in teaching kids get basic kung fu techniques such as stances correct.  And every parent child that was involved in that care about the quality of instruction their child was getting. They wanted their children to learn something of value and to be safe while doing it.


Then you live in paradise because I've had parents tell me to my face i know my kid hates this but I need time to grocery shop or I've heard I need time to workout I don't care if my kid play in the game don't worry about it.  Or my fav ever was "Look I know this is a church program but we don't believe in God so can you keep the Jesus talk to a minimum


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> What's that have to do with kids? You said you saw no kids in the OP


 You brought up kids when you said that mostly kids take martial arts.



ballen0351 said:


> And again your not the license department, they can run, there school anyway they want.


 I don't have to be a license department to call out bad martial arts.  And you are right they can run it any way they want to.   The same way they can run the school as they see fit, is the same freedom others have to call out bad martial arts. 



ballen0351 said:


> Then you live in paradise because I've had parents tell me to my face i know my kid hates this but I need time to grocery shop or I've heard I need time to workout I don't care if my kid play in the game don't worry about it. Or my fav ever was "Look I know this is a church program but we don't believe in God so can you keep the Jesus talk to a minimum


 I live far from paradise.  
#1  If you run a program then you set the standards you don't let the parents set the standard.
#2  I have always been straight forward with parents not only about what I do but my expectations for the students who participate in my program.  I do the same for adults.
#3  I have told parents in the past before their kids ever signed up, that WE ARE NOT A BABY SITTING SERVICE.
For example: This martial arts school put is up front that they are not a babysitting service

Did you make recommendations to other places that child may enjoy?
If I'm teaching a church program and the parent doesn't believe in God.  I would tell them that their kid is in the wrong program and that this month as well as the following months are going to have detailed discussions about Jesus and his teachings. That's what's going to happen if they don't like it then they can take their kid out of it.  I wouldn't cater to the parent just so I could get the money.

There always has to be standards


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> You brought up kids when you said that mostly kids take martial arts.


You think otherwise?


> I don't have to be a license department to call out bad martial arts.  And you are right they can run it any way they want to.   The same way they can run the school as they see fit, is the same freedom others have to call out bad martial arts.


OR you can act like a grown up and if you see something you don't like you shrug it off and move on.  I'm not sure who made you the bad karate police


> If I'm teaching a church program and the parent doesn't believe in God.  I would tell them that their kid is in the wrong program and that this month as well as the following months are going to have detailed discussions about Jesus and his teachings. That's what's going to happen if they don't like it then they can take their kid out of it.  I wouldn't cater to the parent just so I could get the money.


Well its free so no money was involved and we view it as a chance to expose kids to something they are lacking.  Im not going to punish the child by kicking them out because there parents dont believe


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> OR you can act like a grown up and if you see something you don't like you shrug it off and move on. I'm not sure who made you the bad karate police


 The reason I point out martial arts is for the same reason I would point out a hole in the ground, so the person walking the same path doesn't get hurt as a result of "stepping into the hole." If you still decide to fall into the hole after I pointed it out to you then that's fine with me.

But you are probably right.  If I see something I like I should shrug it off and move on.  And not point out something bad that I see.
Chinese mother killed riding escalator - CNN.com


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> The reason I point out martial arts is for the same reason I would point out a hole in the ground, so the person walking the same path doesn't get hurt as a result of "stepping into the hole." If you still decide to fall into the hole after I pointed it out to you then that's fine with me.
> 
> But you are probably right.  If I see something I like I should shrug it off and move on.  And not point out something bad that I see.
> Chinese mother killed riding escalator - CNN.com


Big difference between a hazard that can hurt someone like a hole and a group of guys enjoying a hobby not bothering anyone.   I'm not sure why you feel the need to make fun of them because somehow you have crowned yourself the Martial Arts police


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Big difference between a hazard that can hurt someone like a hole and a group of guys enjoying a hobby not bothering anyone.   I'm not sure why you feel the need to make fun of them because somehow you have crowned yourself the Martial Arts police


Doing martial arts can hurt you just as easy as falling in a hole especially when the techniques are done incorrectly or when the Instructor doesn't care about the well being of the students. Incorrect kicking techniques can cause serious damage to the knees. Incorrect punching technique can break your wrist, hand, or fingers.  Incorrect technique when using a broadsword can damage your elbow.  Wrong fist formation can break or hyper-extend the thumb. Incorrect stance can cause serious knee damage.  

If you are using a weapon like staff, spear, sword or chain dart then technique becomes everything. Not only can you hurt yourself, but using the weapon wrong can hurt you or someone else that's around you. If you practice with a real sword or spear, then not paying attention to who is around you, or letting kids run around while people are practicing can result in serious injury or death.  I say real sword or spear because, my kung fu brothers use real weapons made with "combat steel," one uses a real broad sword (live blade semi sharpened) and the other uses a real spear (real spear head)  

I don't feel the need to make fun of them, I just point out bad martial arts when I see it, especially if they are all wearing black belts. Had the people in the video been wearing yellow belts, white belts, or no belts then everyone would have just thought they were learning.  There are videos of horrible Jow Ga practitioners doing horrible techniques and no one makes fun of them, or say that they are horrible, because the people in that video aren't claiming to be someone of "black belt" skill level. People look at the videos and can tell they are students.  
For example: 



He gets more than a few techniques wrong.  This guy has bad techniques as well




None of these guys claim to be an expert and they don't put themselves in the light of being an expert.

As for me personally. I don't "police" Jow Ga kung fu.  There are Jow Ga associations that do that.  I personally don't worry about karate looking bad beyond, bad instructors and unqualified instructors causing harm by misleading people and taking advantage of them. I speak my mind about stuff like that always.  If people get upset when I speak my mind about things like that then, all I can say it's not my fault that they do bad Martial arts. Don't get upset at what I say because of what I see.  Get upset at the instructors, had they not mislead students then nothing would have been said at all.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 13, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Doing martial arts can hurt you just as easy as falling in a hole especially when the techniques are done incorrectly or when the Instructor doesn't care about the well being of the students. Incorrect kicking techniques can cause serious damage to the knees. Incorrect punching technique can break your wrist, hand, or fingers.  Incorrect technique when using a broadsword can damage your elbow.  Wrong fist formation can break or hyper-extend the thumb. Incorrect stance can cause serious knee damage.
> 
> If you are using a weapon like staff, spear, sword or chain dart then technique becomes everything. Not only can you hurt yourself, but using the weapon wrong can hurt you or someone else that's around you. If you practice with a real sword or spear, then not paying attention to who is around you, or letting kids run around while people are practicing can result in serious injury or death.  I say real sword or spear because, my kung fu brothers use real weapons made with "combat steel," one uses a real broad sword (live blade semi sharpened) and the other uses a real spear (real spear head)
> 
> ...


Who are you to say they are being mislead.  If they are having fun and fell they are getting value for THEIR time and money then they are not being mislead.  But If it makes you feel more importent to police the martial arts world then have fun.  I'm pretty sure your opinion carries little weight with them.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 14, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> didn't say people need to be afraid of TMA. But there are people who don't respect TMA and will go out of the way to fight you just to prove their assumptions about TMA effectiveness.


I have had a few people here and there who have found out I do martial arts and have wanted to test me. They have said things like; "If I do this you wont be able to do anything" or they have said to my friends that they could take me but if there is one thing that I have learned about this is that generally it's all talk and nothing else.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 14, 2015)

They tie their belts weird:


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## Tez3 (Sep 14, 2015)

Much better to have a big lumpy knot so that when you are grappling and are 'north to south' you can rub the knot in your partner's face......


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Much better to have a big lumpy knot so that when you are grappling and are 'north to south' you can rub the knot in your partner's face......



Is that a knot in your pocket or are you happy to see me?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 14, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Is that a knot in your pocket or are you happy to see me?


Yes


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## Tez3 (Sep 15, 2015)

I wear hard plastic chest protectors for grappling, as good as another pair of elbows


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 15, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Is that a knot in your pocket or are you happy to see me?


Let's knot go there.


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## Sub Zero (Sep 15, 2015)

[Can't E="Dirty Dog, post: 1724713, member: 20725"]Is that a knot in your pocket or are you happy to see me?[/QUOTE]

Can't it be both?


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## Buka (Sep 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Dunning-Kruger effect at its finest.
> 
> At least they're getting some exercise.



I had to look up the Dunning-Kruger effect. 

Glad I did. Thanks.


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## JR 137 (Oct 6, 2015)

2 things really get me going about these guys...

They call themselves WMAA Karate.  They're Tae Kwon Do.

More importantly...

These guys (and girls) obviously have Internet access and have seen YouTube, seeing as how they're posting stuff there.  How do they justify doing what they do?  It's not like back in the day before the Internet or even video where they could have honestly thought that's how everyone trained. Do they not see themselves running through kata like chickens with their heads cut off, and yet no one else does this?  Do they not see themselves as black belts throwing kicks that I've seen white belts do far better with, especially with their hands constantly down?

Everyone's got their own path they think they should follow.

I guess I should record myself doing stuff to see if maybe I look absurd too.

Just when it was cool again to practice karate, these guys had to come and post another video.  It's ok though.  Their skills (or lack thereof) don't effect mine in any way.  To each his own.

BTW...
The ones spinning during their kata are Kyokushin students.  They're doing ura kata - adding a spin before each step forward.  I'm not a fan of ura kata (I do them in Seido), but anyone who knows anything about martial arts knows Kyokushin "McDojos" are extremely few and far between.  Full contact tends to weed out the WMAA types; not that's a good or bad thing.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 8, 2015)

JR 137 said:


> 2 things really get me going about these guys...
> 
> They call themselves WMAA Karate.


Where?


JR 137 said:


> 2
> They're Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> More importantly...
> ...



You answer your own questions.


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## JR 137 (Oct 8, 2015)

They call themselves karate here and a bunch of other places.  I'm pretty sure I've seen karate written on some of their videos and clothing. 

Home

My questions weren't truly questions, I guess.  How someone justifies what they do as good karate, I mean TKD, is beyond me.  To each his/her own.


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## JR 137 (Oct 8, 2015)

figured out how to edit, but not how to delete


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## ballen0351 (Oct 9, 2015)

JR 137 said:


> How someone justifies what they do as good karate, I mean TKD, is beyond me.  To each his/her own.


Who gets to be the authority on good and bad?  If they like it and have fun why do you care?  How does it have any effect on your life?


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

JR 137 said:


> To each his/her own.



Well, exactly. Looking at their website they say they don't do contact and they explain their philosophy ( which I rather like actually) so you know what you are getting. They don't take away from anything anyone else is doing and it would be discourteous to laugh at them.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 9, 2015)

If what Tez said is true then I'm discourteous


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## Douglasmase (Oct 9, 2015)

People laugh and this is pretty sad but this is what many martial arts are becoming.   I took some of students to a master's test and they saw a gentleman stand up and state that the form was to complicated to learn so he would do something else, and the council passed him.

We live in A McDonald's society, we want it and we want it now.  .003% percent make it to BlackBelt so let's push them through so we can keep our ranks up, but what will this do to future generations.

I just ask that all instructors out do not sacrifice quality for quantity.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

Douglasmase said:


> We live in A McDonald's society, we want it and we want it now.



'We'? speak for yourself! the society I live isn't a McDonald's one at all.

I'm sorry but think laughing at anyone who isn't deliberately being funny discourteous.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 9, 2015)

If they want to call themselves a martial arts club, have no-contact training and put together videos like that for public display then I think having a wee laugh at them is fair game - I mean, it's not as if I'm going out my way to find their club and walk in the door to ridicule them in person. If an amature football club put together a team that just (really badly) simulated the sport of football, everyone involved in training the real thing would probably have a little chuckle - so long as it doesn't get nasty, I don't see a problem with it. 

The difference between a martial arts club training like that and a football club, is that the worst thing that could happen to the 'football players' - if they assumed they were learning practical skills - is that they'd get beaten pretty badly in a match, the 'martial artists' could (extreme example) end up being killed. 

This club is a similar case; pretty harmless and funny to watch, so long as nobody is thinking that they're developing practical self defence skills: 






Fair play to them, looks like they're having a lot of fun but if you're going to advertise your club as a Martial Arts club, then I'm going to judge you within that framework. They say that they're training in their own hybrid system Chat Ying Kuen - which, after a bit of digging around, appears to just be a mish mash of badly understood principles from other kung fu systems. It doesn't deserve much respect in my opinion


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2015)

To be honest, I don't bother judging them for what they are doing, why would I? I don't care what they are doing. None of my business, they aren't even on the same continent as me. Would I laugh at a poor football team, no, as I said I don't laugh at people who aren't intentionally funny. Feel free to, it's still, to me, discourteous. 
Quite often people make fun of people like this because it makes them feel their own training is superior, it shouldn't because who knows what other think of their training? We've seen plenty of arguments on here about how one style is superior to others, how this style isn't any good in the cage, how that one doesn't teach properly, all generalisations and conjecture along with a large dollop of arrogance.
So on the whole I'd say, don't worry what others are doing, don't judge them just move along, there's nothing to see.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 9, 2015)

Oh Tez, absurdity is a form of comedy and if 'Martial Arts' is the context then hopping about in a bad crane pose whilst sparring is definitely an example of the abusrd - there's no way you're defending yourself like that if someone is trying to hit you (2nd video)......aaaaand there's a whole load of caveats with that, but I'm specifically referring to what the guys are doing in that Chat Ying video. We're going to have to agree to disagree, I don't see anything immoral about it.

I do get where you're coming from though; this type of thing can be used by people as a platform to prove to themselves that what they're doing is going to eventually launch them into the realms of martial arts badassery - but that's a silly approach to take. I'd rather spend time on finding examples of people I want to emulate rather than those who I want to laugh at - if the opportunity presents itself then yea, I might have a little chuckle, but we move swiftly on.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 9, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> I'd rather spend time on finding examples of people I want to emulate rather than those who I want to laugh at



This.

The time we have on Earth to train is limited. Time is just better spent looking for good role models and training with them than it is grubbing out video examples that don't mesh with our world view.

Publicly and openly making judgmental statements about people...not a great idea generally from self defence perspective.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> We're going to have to agree to disagree, I don't see anything immoral about it.



Immoral? I don't see where you are going with that. I said nothing about morality just courtesy. I just don't like seeing people take the P out of others when those others aren't doing anything other than their 'thing'.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 10, 2015)

JR 137 said:


> They call themselves WMAA Karate. They're Tae Kwon Do.


I ahve seen a number of their websites and videos, I don't think they can make up their minds what to call themselves.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 10, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> They say that they're training in their own hybrid system Chat Ying Kuen - which, after a bit of digging around, appears to just be a mish mash of badly understood principles from other kung fu systems. It doesn't deserve much respect in my opinion


Having respect for other styles/schools, even if you don't personally think they are any good, says more about you than it does them.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 10, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Immoral? I don't see where you are going with that. I said nothing about morality just courtesy. I just don't like seeing people take the P out of others when those others aren't doing anything other than their 'thing'.


I don't think that having a little laugh about something on an online messageboard is being particularly impolite, you do, therefore this becomes a discussion loosely based on what we personally believe to be right and wrong - there is no single 'right' answer, the standpoint we agree with is the one that best fits in with our morals. 


RTKDCMB said:


> Having respect for other styles/schools, even if you don't personally think they are any good, says more about you than it does them.


Hey man, I respect these guys much more than a lot of people sitting around on the couch every evening. They probably do a lot for the local community and it's good to see that they enjoy what their doing. Once upon a time I'd have had a bit of a rant about the 'sifu' teaching bits of other arts within his own framework, really badly, but if he wants to do that and people are happy to pay for such nonsense, then so be it. Just because I have respect for other people getting involved in any form of martial arts doesn't mean I have to afford respect to the style they are doing if it looks like it wouldn't do any good when applied within the context of it's primary purpose.

In summary:

It's okay to judge those who are passionate enough about martial arts to spend some of their precious free time discussing it on a forum

Judging people who are making money out of selling such a nonsensical product isn't.

I feel as though i'm struggling to see over all these high horses on this thread.


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## JR 137 (Oct 10, 2015)

I'm probably going to get some backlash for what I'm about to say.  I'm putting it out there for everybody/anybody to read, so I deserve it...

Barring people with disabilities/special needs/things they have no realistic control over, I see no harm in having a laugh.  There's a difference between having a laugh and tearing someone apart.  I never said anything along the lines of "I'd drop any 10 of them in the cage at the same time," "they're all useless p-words," etc.  Like most others here, I had a laugh and said "How they can call this good karate (if that's what they are calling their 'style' today) is beyond me."

Their technique overall is awful IMO.  Balance, timing, speed, and where they hold their hands are all wrong.  Anyone outside of their organization would have a very hard time disagreeing with any of that, realistically speaking.

They seem to train hard, enjoy what they're doing, are getting some exercise, and don't care what people say about it, so more power to them.  Them doing what they do has zero effect on my life, just like if there was a group who was as physically gifted/talented as Bruce Lee has zero effect on my life.

If they put it out there for everyone to see, then they have to accept the criticism, short of personal attacks that cross the line.  Having a light hearted laugh and questioning the methods is not a personal attack that crosses the line IMO.

They obviously don't care what I nor anyone else think, because they keep posting videos.

I have the right to laugh at anything I find comical, just like you have the right to defend what you find unjust.  It would be a very boring world without these rights.  Keep on defending, and I'll keep laughing.

And yes, I sincerely do feel the art I study is superior to their's, hence why I haven't jumped ship and joined their's.  My practiced art being better than their's doesn't make me a better person nor does it fill me with the pride of feeling like I'm better than every single one of them and they must do what I do.  I find humor in what they do.  I'm pretty sure people would find unintentional humor in a lot of things I do, karate included.  Nothing wrong with having a laugh every now and then.  Nothing wrong with having a laugh at me nor with me.  It's called a sense of humor.  If I don't want people to criticize me, I won't put myself out there for anyone and everyone to do so.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> therefore this becomes a discussion loosely based on what we personally believe to be right and wrong - there is no single 'right' answer, the standpoint we agree with is the one that best fits in with our morals.



I can't see why you are making something out of nothing, I'm not talking morals merely good manners.

I also can't see why people are making such a fuss over one group's training, high horses indeed with all the criticisms, long posts justifying themselves, pulling apart what this group are doing really, people why does it matter, really, what a group does in their training? Why are people so out of countenance just because someone appears to be doing what others think they shouldn't? So many words over so very little.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 10, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I can't see why you are making something out of nothing, I'm not talking morals merely good manners.



I'm not making a big deal out of anything, merely pointing out that we disagree on whether or not these groups deserve our 'good manners', as you've put it. We're not getting anywhere and should leave it at that.



Tez3 said:


> I also can't see why people are making such a fuss over one group's training, high horses indeed with all the criticisms, long posts justifying themselves, pulling apart what this group are doing really, people why does it matter, really, what a group does in their training? Why are people so out of countenance just because someone appears to be doing what others think they shouldn't? So many words over so very little.



I don't think anyone is really making much of a fuss about it.

These guys are charging money to learn "martial arts" that probably aren't going to work in a fighting context. It's contraversial and people are going to have an opinion on the subject.


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## Tez3 (Oct 10, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> I'm not making a big deal out of anything, merely pointing out that we disagree on whether or not these groups deserve our 'good manners', as you've put it. We're not getting anywhere and should leave it at that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The video was posted in the first place not for people to critique but to laugh at.

Sometimes it's better to be kind than right..................


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 10, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> The video was posted in the first place not for people to critique but to laugh at.
> 
> Sometimes it's better to be kind than right..................


Fair enough. Although I've disagreed with you on this thread, I respect you for holding that view.

Sometimes people say you need to be cruel to be kind in the martial arts world and although at times that may be true, it's often harder to just be kind.


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## BryceSPQR (Jan 15, 2016)

Most of them didn't surprise me, but the video of the ladies doing a weird twirling kata at the Karate dojo made me sad. I hope it is some weird training exercise they are doing. As for the weird kicking sparring, they are definitely getting their cardio?

www.northernshotokan.com


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## JR 137 (Jan 15, 2016)

BryceSPQR said:


> Most of them didn't surprise me, but the video of the ladies doing a weird twirling kata at the Karate dojo made me sad. I hope it is some weird training exercise they are doing. As for the weird kicking sparring, they are definitely getting their cardio?
> 
> www.northernshotokan.com



The "weird twirling kata" the ladies were doing is a Kyokushin thing (notice the Kyokushin logos in the glass in the background).  Kyokushin (among others) requires kata to be done in ura at higher ranks.  When doing a kata in ura, you make a 360 degree spin before each forward step.  I'm not a fan of it, but we do it in Seido too, as Seido came from Kyokushin.

Kyokushin is definitely not McDojo.  I'm not saying there isn't a single Kyokushin McDojo out there, but they've got to be a fake Kyokushin dojo if they're a McDojo.  They're full contact bare knuckle.

Kyokushin students' kata usually don't look as pretty as others performing the same kata because Kyokushin generally strongly emphasizes kumite over kata.

Look up some Kyokushin competitions on YouTube if you're unfamiliar with it.  Pretty tough group IMO.


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