# Incompatible Arts?



## stoneheart (May 9, 2004)

Hello everyone.  A quick question if I may... Do you think it is possible to learn more than 1 striking art at the same time?  I'm a white belt in Okinawan Goju-Ryu right now, and I like it very much, but I'm also interested in the Ed Parker system.  

 Do you think it's possible to pull off training in two different systems at the same time while one is still a greenhorn?  I was a red belt in taekwondo years ago, and I have noticed that my Goju-Ryu stances are affected by the habits I learned in taekwondo, even 12 years later.  Do you think I would have similar technical problems trying to learn kenpo?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (May 9, 2004)

stoneheart said:
			
		

> Hello everyone. A quick question if I may... Do you think it is possible to learn more than 1 striking art at the same time? I'm a white belt in Okinawan Goju-Ryu right now, and I like it very much, but I'm also interested in the Ed Parker system.
> 
> Do you think it's possible to pull off training in two different systems at the same time while one is still a greenhorn? I was a red belt in taekwondo years ago, and I have noticed that my Goju-Ryu stances are affected by the habits I learned in taekwondo, even 12 years later. Do you think I would have similar technical problems trying to learn kenpo?


YES

Dark Lord


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## Blindside (May 9, 2004)

As a short answer, yes, I suspect that training in both will screw you up in both.

Lamont


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## c2kenpo (May 9, 2004)

Make that three against attempting to multi-train in the beginning.

You can't learn algebra without basic math, and attempting to learn algebra, trigonometry , and calculus all at the same time simply is setting you up for failure.

My suggestion is to stick with one for a year or two (depending on how often you train) then revisit where you are in your art and decide if you need to change or not.

Good luck on your Journey

David Gunzburg


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## Rick Wade (May 9, 2004)

I just started with Okinawan Kenpo (Master Odo's lineage) and have been training In American Kenpo (UKF) since 1991.  Let me tell you it is tough learning two arts at the same time i have an advantage in that I had 12 year experience before I picked up another art.  The cool thing is you take the information from one dojo and try and apply it in the other dojo and see if it works.  However if i were just starting out I definately wouldn't recommend two diffrent styles at once.

Respectfully


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## Bill Lear (May 9, 2004)

stoneheart said:
			
		

> "Do you think it is possible to learn more than 1 striking art at the same time?"



I think it is possible, but I must assert that a jack of all trades is a master of nothing. I think it would be better to stick with one or the other. I 've had students that have tried to do both, and it has been more than obvious to me that the undertaking of two martial arts at the same time can prove to be confusing to say the least. 




			
				stoneheart said:
			
		

> Do you think it's possible to pull off training in two different systems at the same time while one is still a greenhorn?


 
I think it would be even more confusing for someone to train in two arts simultaneously under these circumstances.




			
				stoneheart said:
			
		

> I was a red belt in taekwondo years ago, and I have noticed that my Goju-Ryu stances are affected by the habits I learned in taekwondo, even 12 years later.  Do you think I would have similar technical problems trying to learn kenpo?


 
YES.


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## Danjo (May 9, 2004)

I think that the key here is "two different STRIKING arts" Combining Judo and Kempo or karate etc. would not screw you up as they are different in what they are trying to teach without contradicting each other.


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## Brother John (May 9, 2004)

Danjo said:
			
		

> I think that the key here is "two different STRIKING arts" Combining Judo and Kempo or karate etc. would not screw you up as they are different in what they are trying to teach without contradicting each other.


That's a good point I think.
I'd still rather stick to the rifle approach than the sawed off shotgun approach. One gets you further!
IF I went to a Go-Ju Ryu school (Which I did for years) and tried to 'learn' from them I'd have a HECK of a hard time not trying to tell them "Ya know, you could do this a better way!"

Your Brother
John


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## stoneheart (May 9, 2004)

Thanks for the feedback, gentlemen.  I suspected as much.  Not sure what I am going to do.  The Goju-Ryu dojo I attend is very old school and traditional which appeals to my sense of aesthetics.  At the same time, I recognize much of the 'modern' fighting theories taught in kenpo would be invaluble to my development as a martial artist.  Thanks again.


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## Doc (May 10, 2004)

Danjo said:
			
		

> I think that the key here is "two different STRIKING arts" Combining Judo and Kempo or karate etc. would not screw you up as they are different in what they are trying to teach without contradicting each other.


Actually disciplines with contridictory philosophies are always incompatible. Even the same disciplines taught by significantly different methodologies would also be very much incompatible. But that never stopped anyone who thought they wanted to do it all, today. Start at the top and work your way up.


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## Danjo (May 10, 2004)

The point is that Judo and Karate focus on different fighting ranges and techniques and therefore confusion will be reduced to a minimum if studying them at the same time. The problem with studying two different striking techniques is that they will each tell you how to punch, kick, block and stand differently while delivering these techniques.


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## MJS (May 10, 2004)

stoneheart said:
			
		

> Hello everyone.  A quick question if I may... Do you think it is possible to learn more than 1 striking art at the same time?  I'm a white belt in Okinawan Goju-Ryu right now, and I like it very much, but I'm also interested in the Ed Parker system.
> 
> Do you think it's possible to pull off training in two different systems at the same time while one is still a greenhorn?  I was a red belt in taekwondo years ago, and I have noticed that my Goju-Ryu stances are affected by the habits I learned in taekwondo, even 12 years later.  Do you think I would have similar technical problems trying to learn kenpo?



In a nut shell, yes, it is possible to train in more than 1 art at the same time.  Make sure that you have a VERY good base in 1 art FIRST, and then, go ahead and crosstrain if you want.  As for the stances that you mention...yeah, I can understand that you had a problem, and its only natural to have one.  If you've been in an art long enough, it will be hard to break those old habits, but with time, you wont have a problem.  

Good Luck on your choice.

Mike


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## Doc (May 10, 2004)

Danjo said:
			
		

> The point is that Judo and Karate focus on different fighting ranges and techniques and therefore confusion will be reduced to a minimum if studying them at the same time. The problem with studying two different striking techniques is that they will each tell you how to punch, kick, block and stand differently while delivering these techniques.


I'm afraid in a simple world that seems ok, but different arts assume different basic applications of basic and diverse skills. As a simple example, judo's approach to footwork and the methodology of utilizing body mass is contridictory to the striking basics and movement of Karate-do.

Like I said you can do anything you want to do, and justify it to yourself. Of course the end product will be just what you as a martial arts genius deserves.- Crap.


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## Danjo (May 10, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> I'm afraid in a simple world that seems ok, but different arts assume different basic applications of basic and diverse skills. As a simple example, judo's approach to footwork and the methodology of utilizing body mass is contridictory to the striking basics and movement of Karate-do.
> 
> Like I said you can do anything you want to do, and justify it to yourself. Of course the end product will be just what you as a martial arts genius deserves.- Crap.


First off, my martial arts skills are not crap. Secondly, if you think that it is a bad idea to cross train to gain skills in the various ranges then take a gander at the UFC etc. See what happens when someone comes in there with expertise in only one area. That you would use different footwork and utilize your body mass differently when striking than you would during grappling is rather obvious. It is also rather unavoidable. I would love to see you use the same footwork and body mass doing both. If you think that, therefore, one should either be a striker or a grappler and not mix the two for some bizzare fear of getting a crap result, then I would say that it sounds as if you have limited experience. Kyokushin Kai, for instance, mixes grappling and striking freely. It is because Oyama had black belts in karate and judo. I would not call that a crappy mixture.


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## Seig (May 10, 2004)

Keep the Discussion Polite and Respectfull.
Seig
MT Admin


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## Touch Of Death (May 10, 2004)

Danjo said:
			
		

> First off, my martial arts skills are not crap. Secondly, if you think that it is a bad idea to cross train to gain skills in the various ranges then take a gander at the UFC etc. See what happens when someone comes in there with expertise in only one area. That you would use different footwork and utilize your body mass differently when striking than you would during grappling is rather obvious. It is also rather unavoidable. I would love to see you use the same footwork and body mass doing both. If you think that, therefore, one should either be a striker or a grappler and not mix the two for some bizzare fear of getting a crap result, then I would say that it sounds as if you have limited experience. Kyokushin Kai, for instance, mixes grappling and striking freely. It is because Oyama had black belts in karate and judo. I would not call that a crappy mixture.


I don't think Doc's comments were about adding grappling skills to a striking art. Those would be compatible and this thread is about incompatible. Tae kwon do and Kenpo have conflicting principles of fighting. Kenpo kicks are generaly low and through the center, and Tae kwon Do kicks are high and wide. Both schools would request that you "correct" your kicks. You can accept that there is a time and a place for both. Its easy to see once you delve a little, that there are clear reasons why each system does it that way. The question is, which way do I practice for internalization. One has to take the lead role; because, much of being a good fighter is having certain decisions made before the altercation, and how you move is certainly one of them. As far as grappling being radicaly different from striking arts, the transition between the two is not easy; because, everything changes, and in his forty years of experience, he has seen a lot of unsuccessfull blends. Practicality is certainly an issue, but I, as you, believe it is possible. However, your chances of success are small.
Sean
Sean


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## Doc (May 11, 2004)

> First off, my martial arts skills are not crap.



I really wouldnt know what your skills are and made no mention of your personal skills.



> Secondly, if you think that it is a bad idea to cross train to gain skills in the various ranges then take a gander at the UFC etc.



The original question wasnt about competition training, therefore the UFC reference is irrelevant.




> That you would use different footwork and utilize your body mass differently when striking than you would during grappling is rather obvious.



Apparently it is obvious but the implication isnt to you.



> If you think that, therefore, one should either be a striker or a grappler and not mix the two for some bizzare fear of getting a crap result, then I would say that it sounds as if you have limited experience.



Im afraid you are attributing things to me I have not alluded to nor inferred. Also As I havent made any comments about your experience, perhaps you should give me the same respect regarding my experience.



> Kyokushin Kai, for instance, mixes grappling and striking freely. It is because Oyama had black belts in karate and judo. I would not call that a crappy mixture.



Perhaps you have lost sight of the original question and have personalized these comments. However, to make a comparison of what Mas Oyama ultimate accomplished in his own art drawing from various sources would seem to be also irrelevant. 

Let me remind you of the original question:


> Hello everyone. A quick question if I may... Do you think it is possible to learn more than 1 striking art at the same time? I'm a white belt in Okinawan Goju-Ryu right now, and I like it very much, but I'm also interested in the Ed Parker system.
> 
> Do you think it's possible to pull off training in two different systems at the same time while one is still a greenhorn? I was a red belt in taekwondo years ago, and I have noticed that my Goju-Ryu stances are affected by the habits I learned in taekwondo, even 12 years later. Do you think I would have similar technical problems trying to learn kenpo?



It appears a beginner in another art is asking whether or not he should also tackle Ed Parkers kenpo at the same time. For all the reasons previously stated, as well as others, my opinion is no.

I further suggest that everyone is not capable of elevating themselves to the status of an Ed Parker, or Mas Oyama to create their own style from various martial influences. Of course everyone these days seems intent on doing so, and I reiterate that most of it is crap. Now whether or not that includes you, I wouldnt know, but I do know a bit about learning and teaching Ed Parkers Kenpo and I am entitled to my knowledgeable opinion. You of course are entitled to your opinion as well, whatever its source may be.


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## Danjo (May 11, 2004)

Doc,

Sorry if I took your meaning wrong. Given that you quoted me, addressed your comments to learning judo and a striking art at the same time (not Tae Kwon Do and Kenpo), and then said, "Like I said YOU can do anything YOU want to do, and justify it to YOURself. Of course the end product will be just what YOU as a martial arts genius deserves.- Crap." Lead me to think that the comments were directed at me rather than the original poster.

If I took it wrong, then I appologize and I'll let it drop.

Regards,  

Dan


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## Disco (May 11, 2004)

Stoneheart, My curiosity got the better of me and I'll apologize in advance if the following questions seem to come off the wrong way. 

#1. Why didn't or don't you finish your training in TKD? You were that close to BB......

#2. Aside from all those who have already stated that you would have problems attempting to learn 2 styles at the same time, I have to ask..... Have you got that much free time and money to even entertain such an idea?


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## Doc (May 11, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> ... it is possible. However, your chances of success are small.
> Sean


Very well said sir, because after all, anything is possible but success is very unlikely especially with a novice.


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## Doc (May 11, 2004)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Sorry if I took your meaning wrong. Given that you quoted me, addressed your comments to learning judo and a striking art at the same time (not Tae Kwon Do and Kenpo), and then said, "Like I said YOU can do anything YOU want to do, and justify it to YOURself. Of course the end product will be just what YOU as a martial arts genius deserves.- Crap." Lead me to think that the comments were directed at me rather than the original poster.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware of the arts you personally studied. My comments were not meant to be taken personally by, nor were they directed at anyone in particular. I was simply answering the question with the generic "YOU." Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I tend to not attack people, but I will "lean on" an "idea" I disagree with from time to time.


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## stoneheart (May 11, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Stoneheart, My curiosity got the better of me and I'll apologize in advance if the following questions seem to come off the wrong way.
> 
> #1. Why didn't or don't you finish your training in TKD? You were that close to BB......


 I don't mind answering your questions, Disco.

 I moved away from home to attend college.  While I lived with my parents, I had taken ITF style tae kwon do before the dreaded "sine wave" became prevalent with a great many groups and schools.  I had every intention of continuing with my studies at college, but it seemed like every dojang I could find was WTF-affiliated.  Since ITF uses the Chan Hon forms, I felt decidedly out of place attending a WTF dojang, and by the time I stumbled across an ITF style school, I discovered that they REALLY loved the sine wave there... And I didn't and still don't today.

  By now I'm so out of practice with taekwondo, that I'd probably be a white belt anyway, and ironically an ITF dojang would now be the very last thing I'd be interested in.  

 Hence my enrollment in a Goju-Ryu karate dojo.  




			
				Disco said:
			
		

> #2. Aside from all those who have already stated that you would have problems attempting to learn 2 styles at the same time, I have to ask..... Have you got that much free time and money to even entertain such an idea?


 Well, I'm no millionaire but money isn't really an issue right now.  I mean, paying tuition to two dojos with the extras like private lessons isn't even in the same league as buying an expensive car, and in fact it seems like a better use of my resources to me.  

 Time...well, I could see myself practicing and working out 12 hours a week.   I know some of you will say that time would be best devoted to just learning one art, and those people may well be right.   My goals aren't necessarily to advance quickly rank-wise.   I couldn't care less about what color belt I wear.


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## Danjo (May 11, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware of the arts you personally studied. My comments were not meant to be taken personally by, nor were they directed at anyone in particular. I was simply answering the question with the generic "YOU." Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I tend to not attack people, but I will "lean on" an "idea" I disagree with from time to time.


No problem. I think I read your post too fast anyways before replying. I thnk that we all agree that mixing things too much at an early stage is not the best idea.


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