# Wing Chun with a side order of Judo



## J W (Feb 12, 2013)

I hadn't really considered "cross-training" (not anytime soon, anyway), but one of those local e-mail deals popped up recently for a Judo / BJJ school nearby. It's a pretty good deal ($99 for 3 months), and their beginner's "fundamentals" class fits well around my Wing Chun training schedule. Plus, my fiancee has a bit of a fascination with BJJ, but spends her money on yoga instead (her real obsession). We popped in, and it seems like a good place, so I figure why not? I'll try out some Judo/BJJ for a bit. 

Anyone else have any experience training both Judo and Wing Chun?


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2013)

BJJ, or any other form of practical grappling was always on my "to-do" list. But between Ving Tsun, Escrima, familiy and career, I never got around to it. I finally started doing a bit of Filipino grappling with my DTE Eskrima brothers at a park, no mats. I went down hard and ended up jacking up my back. I'm now realizing that at nearly 58 there are some things that I probably shouldn't be doing anymore.

So go for it while you can. WC and grappling compliment each other very well IMO.


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## Steve (Feb 12, 2013)

geezer said:


> BJJ, or any other form of practical grappling was always on my "to-do" list. But between Ving Tsun, Escrima, familiy and career, I never got around to it. I finally started doing a bit of Filipino grappling with my DTE Eskrima brothers at a park, no mats. I went down hard and ended up jacking up my back. I'm now realizing that at nearly 58 there are some things that I probably shouldn't be doing anymore.
> 
> So go for it while you can. WC and grappling compliment each other very well IMO.


Geezer, I think that the lack of experience, lack of mats and going down hard had more to do with it than your age!  58 is the new 30!


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## cwk (Feb 12, 2013)

I trained judo for a while but unfortunately had to stop because of my schedule. It's a great art to study and train, judo and wing chun compliment each other well. You'll learn a lot about breaking the balance of a fully resisting opponent, switching force vectors ( chi sao training helps with feeling the right time to do this) and lots of cool sweeps that really come in handy in sparring.
I'd say go for it, I'll get back into it myself when I free up some time but I've just started practicing ancient muay thai and krabi krabong so I don't know when that'll be.


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## J W (Feb 13, 2013)

Cool. I am interested in learning some takedowns and throws, since we don't do too much of that in our Ving Tsun training. I hadn't really thought about Judo in terms of chi sao, but I can see how it would use similar principles. It'll be a nice benefit if Judo helps improve my Wing Chun.


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## mook jong man (Feb 14, 2013)

I don't think there would be a problem with you studying Judo.
The only problem I think may arise is with the issue of "grip fighting".
It could conflict with the automatic responses we are trying to train in chi sau , primarily "forward force" and striking.
There could also be a tendency to develop a habit of grabbing , instead of "wrist latching" like we use in Wing Chun.

A way around these potential problems might be to practice the Judo techniques from a position of the grip already being in place rather than engaging in any grip fighting techniques.


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## J W (Feb 14, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> I don't think there would be a problem with you studying Judo.
> The only problem I think may arise is with the issue of "grip fighting".
> It could conflict with the automatic responses we are trying to train in chi sau , primarily "forward force" and striking.
> There could also be a tendency to develop a habit of grabbing , instead of "wrist latching" like we use in Wing Chun.
> ...



Thanks for the warning, I'll keep that in mind. I certainly don't want to learn any habits that will be couterproductive to my WC training. 

I kinda expect that I'll end up looking at whatever I learn in Judo through the Wing Chun lens: does it stick to good WC principles? Or am I giving up center, using too much force, etc.


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## chinaboxer (Feb 15, 2013)

i highly recommend doing it. 90% of all my wing chun understanding and knowledge comes from my all my grappling experience, which consists of freestyle wrestling, greco roman, shooto, catch wrestling and bjj.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 28, 2014)

Yes, I think the only thing in judo that disagrees with wing chun would be grabbing instead of trapping. But the idea of using the opponent's strength against them is a trait they both share.


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## J W (Mar 5, 2014)

Since this thread popped back up, I'll admit that my Judo training fizzled out after only a couple lessons. My wife and I were preparing for our wedding at the time, and we stopped going when we got busy with all that. 

I'm still interested in Judo and grappling, so I may try again when I have the time. Although, there was another thread on here a while ago that got me interested in the correlation between WC and boxing, so I may go find a boxing gym before I get back to Judo.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 5, 2014)

One time I went through a circuit training routine at a local boxing club. At one of the stations you had to punch the focus mitts for about 30-45 seconds. When I was done, the trainer asked why I was punching with my elbow down and my knuckles vertical. So from my limited exposure to boxing training, I don't think the way we punch is compatible.


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## J W (Mar 5, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> One time I went through a circuit training routine at a local boxing club. At one of the stations you had to punch the focus mitts for about 30-45 seconds. When I was done, the trainer asked why I was punching with my elbow down and my knuckles vertical. So from my limited exposure to boxing training, I don't think the way we punch is compatible.



True, the punching mechanics are very different, one of many differences between the two. I'm just interested to understand where the two meet and diverge since they are both primarily punching arts that emphasize simplicity and efficiency.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 6, 2014)

J W said:


> True, the punching mechanics are very different, one of many differences between the two. I'm just interested to understand where the two meet and diverge since they are both primarily punching arts that emphasize simplicity and efficiency.



Right. Well, I mean the literature on JKD says Bruce Lee "borrowed" the boxing stance to modify his martial art. If you ask me though, that is nonsense because there is no strict rule in wing chun that says the weight distribution HAS to be 70% weight on the back, 30% on the front. However, I would agree that he DID draw inspiration from boxing in the form of Muhammed Ali's footwork, plus ducking and slipping.


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## Eric_H (Mar 6, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Right. Well, I mean the literature on JKD says Bruce Lee "borrowed" the boxing stance to modify his martial art. If you ask me though, that is nonsense because there is no strict rule in wing chun that says the weight distribution HAS to be 70% weight on the back, 30% on the front. However, I would agree that he DID draw inspiration from boxing in the form of Muhammed Ali's footwork, plus ducking and slipping.



There are some of us that don't even think that kind of weighting belongs in WC. Martial arts are a crapshoot, try different things and keep what works for you.

To the OP:
Bjj would be worth it, esp at that price. Clubs here tend to start at 150+ a month.


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## VT_Vectis (Mar 6, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Right. Well, I mean the literature on JKD says Bruce Lee "borrowed" the boxing stance to modify his martial art. If you ask me though, that is nonsense because there is no strict rule in wing chun that says the weight distribution HAS to be 70% weight on the back, 30% on the front. However, I would agree that he DID draw inspiration from boxing in the form of Muhammed Ali's footwork, plus ducking and slipping.



I was under the impression that he took the footwork from Fencing which he was very interested in and which helped him "develop" the intercepting fist principle and was more inspired by Jack Dempsey old school boxing methods, but as boxing (pugilism) developed from fencing principles I guess it's easy to mistake the two. I'm sure I've read that  in one of B.L's published books.

To the O.P; I'm thinking of taking up judo for the same reasons, did you find it to be very compatible with Ving Tsun at all?


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## yak sao (Mar 7, 2014)

VT_Vectis said:


> I was under the impression that he took the footwork from Fencing which he was very interested in and *which helped him "develop" the intercepting fist principle *and was more inspired by Jack Dempsey old school boxing methods, but as boxing (pugilism) developed from fencing principles I guess it's easy to mistake the two. I'm sure I've read that  in one of B.L's published books.



The intercepting fist principle is directly taken from WC. He did not have training in much of WC's footwork and had to derive it from other sources.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 7, 2014)

yak sao said:


> The intercepting fist principle is directly taken from WC. He did not have training in much of WC's footwork and had to derive it from other sources.



Ah, right...I forgot about that. My Sifu is a student under Yip Ching, who came to America and did the seminar tour. One of his stops was our school. I can't remember exactly what he said, but I think Bruce learned Chum Kiu from Yip Man but didn't refine it, and he had only some of the dummy form down.

Well, that right there sheds some light on why he felt WC was so limiting. If you know only half a system (or less), then naturally you would think it didn't function for all your needs on its own.


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## yak sao (Mar 7, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Ah, right...I forgot about that. My Sifu is a student under Yip Ching, who came to America and did the seminar tour. One of his stops was our school. I can't remember exactly what he said, but I think Bruce learned Chum Kiu from Yip Man but didn't refine it, and he had only some of the dummy form down.
> 
> Well, that right there sheds some light on why he felt WC was so limiting. If you know only half a system (or less), then naturally you would think it didn't function for all your needs on its own.




I think WC is very misunderstood and much of that can be attributed to Bruce Lee himself.
I think that he did understand WC, at least philosophically, that's why so much of JKD revolves around it...he was trying to re-invent the wheel.

Proper WC training gets you to a point where you are moving freely, not bound by a "style of movement".
There are no pre-planned techniques against a given attack, or as he put it, "classical mess";  our arms move forward, " intercepting the attack", allowing our opponent to create our technique.

The list goes on and on......................................


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## wingchun100 (Mar 7, 2014)

yak sao said:


> I think WC is very misunderstood and much of that can be attributed to Bruce Lee himself.
> I think that he did understand WC, at least philosophically, that's why so much of JKD revolves around it...he was trying to re-invent the wheel.
> 
> Proper WC training gets you to a point where you are moving freely, not bound by a "style of movement".
> ...



He grasped a lot of the concepts, that's for sure. And there is certainly room for debate as to whether or not he was a good "wing chun" practitioner, but he was definitely a great martial artist. If he set his mind to doing something, he got it done. He may have had a spiritual journey to go on (by that I mean he had to temper that ego down a bit), but there were certain things about him that were very admirable. 

At least that is how I see the man anyway.


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## VT_Vectis (Mar 7, 2014)

yak sao said:


> The intercepting fist principle is directly taken from WC. He did not have training in much of WC's footwork and had to derive it from other sources.



Indeed, which is why I put it in quotation marks. &#55357;&#56842;


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## yak sao (Mar 7, 2014)

VT_Vectis said:


> Indeed, which is why I put it in quotation marks. &#55357;&#56842;



Whoops....missed the quotation marks.

Disregard previous post.


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## J W (Mar 13, 2014)

VT_Vectis said:


> To the O.P; I'm thinking of taking up judo for the same reasons, did you find it to be very compatible with Ving Tsun at all?



Wish I could tell ya, I only attended a couple classes. Life got in the way. 

If you do take up judo and stick with it longer than I did, let me know how it goes.


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## VT_Vectis (Mar 21, 2014)

J W said:


> Wish I could tell ya, I only attended a couple classes. Life got in the way.
> 
> If you do take up judo and stick with it longer than I did, let me know how it goes.



Currently backpacking in Aus, so training anything is a struggle but heading to Sydney next week for a month or two and hoping to start training in judo as well as pick up my vt training again so will let you know.


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