# MMA versus Kung Fu Video!



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 2, 2006)

Here is a clip I just came across.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8692039060969768186&q=martial+arts


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 2, 2006)

This is not a MMA versus Kung Fu thread but more what can happen when you are taken to the ground and hopefully point to the importance in having good grappling skills.


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## dok (Dec 2, 2006)

what snapped at the end?

edited : _ exactly _ what snapped

I'm fairly new to grappling myself, but it doesnt seem like the KF guy was given all that much opportunity to tap.


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## Andrew Green (Dec 2, 2006)

I heard a "watch your eyes" in there, so his chance to tap might have dissapeared due to what he was trying.  Hard to tell but he could have been trying to use eye gouges, in which case he's got nothing to complain about on "not getting time to tap"


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## dok (Dec 2, 2006)

yeah i heard that too.  If thats the case, then yes, I agree.

i'm curious as to what kind of rules were in place.  Personally I wouldnt spar with anyone who intended to use eye gouges (or who kept the option open), no matter how superior my skills were.  Just seems careless.  I even get pissed when someone tries the can opener on me.


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## Andrew Green (Dec 2, 2006)

my guess is no rules.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 2, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> my guess is no rules.


 
That would be my guess as well.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 2, 2006)

What exactly was the "kung fu guy" doing? This is deffinitely a video that proves serious complete training is needed, including ground game. Man I love seeing those "kung fu vs" videos with the KF guys wearing this stuff


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## shinbushi (Dec 2, 2006)

This is a pretty old clip.  The MMA fighter is a pro.  the Kung fu instructor had a standing $25,000 open challenge.  So not only did he get his arm broken he lost $25k


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## PeaceWarrior (Dec 2, 2006)

The "Kung fu guy" looks like hes awful confident, perhaps not taking into account that the guy hes fighting is a pro.  Plus if hes that eager to prove himself (betting 25k) then he probably needs an ego-deflation. Does anybody have an idea what style the kung fu guy practices?


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## 7starmantis (Dec 2, 2006)

Looks like some unrealistic stuff to me...just my humble opinion though. That really has no bearing on his style really.


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## mantis (Dec 2, 2006)

i didnt feel either one of them was in control more than the other.  once you go to the ground you can sit there forever, u can do this stuff all day long...


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## PeaceWarrior (Dec 3, 2006)

7starmantis said:


> Looks like some unrealistic stuff to me...just my humble opinion though. That really has no bearing on his style really.



I know, its not the style thats fighting and all, I was just curious.  I cant really tell by his stance, although it looks like an external style maybe? Hung Gar?  

It looks like he kinda went blindly into his attack to me and maybe he didnt expect it to go to the ground? 

Pretty stupid IMO


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## dok (Dec 3, 2006)

> i didnt feel either one of them was in control more than the other. once you go to the ground you can sit there forever, u can do this stuff all day long...



I have to respectfully disagree.  The guy who took it to the ground was clearly in control from the moment he had the other guy off balance.  

As to doing it all day long - this was a fairly short clip.  Its true if both people have comparable skills and there are no outside distractions you can grapple for a long time... but as brian pointed out this just goes to show what a discrepancy in skills can mean.


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## thetruth (Dec 4, 2006)

I don't know how anyone could tell the kung fu guys style from that clip.  He had no real stances and just launched some rediculously telegraphed kick only to be taken down and held there.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Odin (Dec 5, 2006)

poor guy....he did get his arm broke but I do think the MMA guy went easy on him.


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## zDom (Dec 5, 2006)

Odin said:


> poor guy....he did get his arm broke but I do think the MMA guy went easy on him.



Going easy on him would have been making him tap out.

What else was he going to do after breaking his arm? Jump up and start stomping on him?


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## Kensai (Dec 5, 2006)

thetruth said:


> I don't know how anyone could tell the kung fu guys style from that clip.  He had no real stances and just launched some rediculously telegraphed kick only to be taken down and held there.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:



Indeed, my thoughts exactly. Going straight into trying to kick someone who's likely going to grapple, didn't seem to me to be the best tactic to choose. Also didn't feel his opponent out. In fairness, he wasn't really given the choice either. Lol... Oh well, one lesson learned.


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## Shogun (Dec 5, 2006)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Odin*
> 
> 
> ...


 
He could have mounted, and thrown punches and elbow to his face. he could have stayed where he was and used knees. 

when he pushed his knees to the ground, it would have been very easy to slip to his back, flatten him out, and choke him unconcious.

notice he checked the kick but did no other striking? 

I'd say he went easy on him.


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## D Dempsey (Dec 5, 2006)

I remember seeing this a while back.  If I remember correctly the guy is/was a san soo teacher.  There were no rules and the san soo teacher didn't want tapping because he said it was unrealistic.


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## bcbernam777 (Dec 5, 2006)

Ah ha this proves conclusivly that Kung Fu is crap and that grapplers rule the universe


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 5, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> Ah ha this proves conclusivly that Kung Fu is crap and that grapplers rule the universe


 
Actually we all know that not to be the case.  All it proves is that on this one day the guy who won the match was better.  Even though it appears that there were less rules than your typical MMA match today it was still not a real life self defense situation.  Chinese martial arts are not only beautiful but effective and I have met with more than a few CMA's that I would not mind having them guarding my back in a violent encounter.

Why I posted this was to generate some discussion regarding this individuals woeful eye attacks on the ground and woeful body positioning.  That is what I saw as important.  The CMA practitioner was simply not defending the crossbody or side control well.  His eye gouge was completely ineffective as well.  I will bet after this altercation that he reevaluated his training and hopefully took some measures to counter this.

One practitioners failure in a *contest* has no bearing on the overall arts effectiveness for self defense.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 5, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> Ah ha this proves conclusivly that Kung Fu is crap and that grapplers rule the universe


 
Not the grappler who lost. aka, the kung fu guy. His leg work displayed a basic knowledge of how to slow a guy going from side mount, to mount, as did his attempt at getting a heel under the grapplers chin in an attempt to peel him off with the leg. Poor selection considering the size difference, but it tells me he spent a few evenings rolling with some buddies who showed him what he HOPED would be enough to keep the wrassler at bay.

So *which* grappler won? As far as I could see, the more experienced, better conditioned, and stronger/larger of the two...which I would expect to be the case on most days, anyway.

Regards,

Dave


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## bcbernam777 (Dec 5, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Actually we all know that not to be the case.  All it proves is that on this one day the guy who won the match was better.  Even though it appears that there were less rules than your typical MMA match today it was still not a real life self defense situation.  Chinese martial arts are not only beautiful but effective and I have met with more than a few CMA's that I would not mind having them guarding my back in a violent encounter.
> 
> Why I posted this was to generate some discussion regarding this individuals woeful eye attacks on the ground and woeful body positioning.  That is what I saw as important.  The CMA practitioner was simply not defending the crossbody or side control well.  His eye gouge was completely ineffective as well.  I will bet after this altercation that he reevaluated his training and hopefully took some measures to counter this.
> 
> One practitioners failure in a *contest* has no bearing on the overall arts effectiveness for self defense.



I know I am just having a dig  

Look the TMA practicioner off the bat made a couple of opening errors, the first was that he attacked first. I remember one time reading something Sun Tzu said about two armies at a river, he said let your oponant make the first move then attack whilst he is halfway across the river. We all know the value of allowing your oponant to go first, and that nuerologically reaction is always faster than initiation, that was his first mistake, the second was that he did what every inexperianced TMA does, they go in with the legs (why do they do that), not only does it telegraph intention, it also allows your oponant to catch your root. Those ehere just his opening mistakes.


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## bcbernam777 (Dec 5, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Not the grappler who lost. aka, the kung fu guy. His leg work displayed a basic knowledge of how to slow a guy going from side mount, to mount, as did his attempt at getting a heel under the grapplers chin in an attempt to peel him off with the leg. Poor selection considering the size difference, but it tells me he spent a few evenings rolling with some buddies who showed him what he HOPED would be enough to keep the wrassler at bay.
> 
> So *which* grappler won? As far as I could see, the more experienced, better conditioned, and stronger/larger of the two...which I would expect to be the case on most days, anyway.
> 
> ...



Look I agree the better man won on the day


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## D Dempsey (Dec 5, 2006)

I think what it really shows is that recreational martial artists shouldn't challange professional fighters to challange fights.  That and don't be so cocky, no one is superman.


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## PeaceWarrior (Dec 5, 2006)

IMO its all about experience and the type of training.  I know some TMAists who would definetly hold their own, even against a pro fighter.  I just wish that these arrogant "masters" wouldnt do this, it just gives kung fu a bad rep and 90% of people know only what they see on film (concrete evidence obviously)  and take it as evidence of how "ineffective" kung fu is...and therefore how superior MMA is...

I also agree 100% with bcb 

Peace

Keith


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## thetruth (Dec 6, 2006)

D Dempsey said:


> I think what it really shows is that recreational martial artists shouldn't challange professional fighters to challange fights.  That and don't be so cocky, no one is superman.



Gone are the days of true challenge fights.  If you challenge anyone you would generally be looking at mma rules and why be a moron and challenge a pro mma guy. In my opinion if you challenge anyone you deserve an *** whipping.  I couldn't imagine a challenge happening now days with guys striking the throat, eyes etc.   


Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Odin (Dec 6, 2006)

zDom said:


> Going easy on him would have been making him tap out.
> 
> What else was he going to do after breaking his arm? Jump up and start stomping on him?


 
well considering its MMA he could have chosen to mount him and pound him with bare fists ruining that guys goodlooks...or from the side control he had he could have tied him up and unleashed downward elbows (REMEMBER THAT FAMOUS GARY GOODRIDGE MATCH) downward elbows to the head kill you know....instead he chose to use submissions, therefore i thought he went easy.


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## Odin (Dec 6, 2006)

Shogun said:


> He could have mounted, and thrown punches and elbow to his face. he could have stayed where he was and used knees.
> 
> when he pushed his knees to the ground, it would have been very easy to slip to his back, flatten him out, and choke him unconcious.
> 
> ...


 
whoops i replied before reading your reply....took the words right out of my mouth.( :


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## zDom (Dec 6, 2006)

Odin said:


> ...instead he chose to use submissions, therefore i thought he went easy.



Er.. that is my point: he didn't GO for "submission" (wait for a tap out) he went for a MAIM  breaking his arm.

Personally if I had a choice between maimings, I would prefer some cuts and bruises on my face, even a broken nose, from elbow strikes, for example, over having my elbow dislocated.

I've had my face pounded before (with a tire tool on one occassion, with a lead-filled maglite on another) and I healed up pretty well  heck, I still have my dashing good looks    (and chicks dig scars ) But a dislocated elbow can take YEARS to rehabilitate.

A choke would have been even better: loss of conciousness for a few moments, then awakening none worse for the wear other than the loss of pride.

You guys sure do have some strange (to me) ideas of "taking it easy!"


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## dok (Dec 6, 2006)

> well considering its MMA he could have chosen to mount him and pound him with bare fists ruining that guys goodlooks...or from the side control he had he could have tied him up and unleashed downward elbows (REMEMBER THAT FAMOUS GARY GOODRIDGE MATCH) downward elbows to the head kill you know....instead he chose to use submissions, therefore i thought he went easy.



The way it seemed to me was that the pro MMA fighter was showing respect to his opponents skills.  He was keeping a very tight lid on him and not allowing him the possibility to strike back.  You're assuming he would have been able to strike him with impunity if he went for the GnP.  That may be the case, but based on the fact that this guy was betting 25 G's on his skills ( the KF guy ), I'm willing to bet he knew a thing or two.  

Grappling was simply beyond him.  If you don't know and train grappling, its damn near impossible to reverse an undesirable situation.  

I'd agree with zDom, breaking someones arm is not exactly showing leniency.


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## HG1 (Dec 6, 2006)

PeaceWarrior said:


> I know, its not the style thats fighting and all, I was just curious. I cant really tell by his stance, although it looks like an external style maybe? Hung Gar?
> 
> It looks like he kinda went blindly into his attack to me and maybe he didnt expect it to go to the ground?  Pretty stupid IMO


Interesting....I don't think Kung Fu Man is Hung-Ga.  We don't wear that jacket, most schools it's just a t-shirt.

As for the technique or lack of it.  Kung Fu Man doesn't kick but feeds his leg to MMA Guy, which plays right into his grappling speciality - take em to the ground & finish em off.  One legged Kung Fu Man didn't stand a chance.


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## D Dempsey (Dec 6, 2006)

Here is a pretty good tread about the video.  It's long but a few of the posts are from people who where there and can fill in all the details.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40361&highlight=san+soo


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## Odin (Dec 7, 2006)

_''He was a standup specialist who thought he could beat a MMA fighter using eye gouges, finger breaks, and pressure points.

He actually did have a small amount of ground fighting experience as you can see when he defends the mount. However, he didn't have enough to understand not to go for the eye gouge from an inferior position.l''_

I read that on that on the kungfumagazine link posted up.

Where have i heard this before hey? ''eye gouges, finger breaks and pressure points'' i seem to hear that in every Tma vs Mma argument (ie..if someone had me in mount i would gouges his eyes out!raghhhh!!)not saying that the video disproves that notion but i think everyone should now relise its not that easy.

and i dont know about you but if someone is trying to gouge my eyes out DMAN RIGHT IM GOING TO SNAP HIS ARM!he's be lucky if i didnt go for a leg lock and really mess him up for life.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 7, 2006)

Odin said:


> _''He was a standup specialist who thought he could beat a MMA fighter using eye gouges, finger breaks, and pressure points.
> 
> He actually did have a small amount of ground fighting experience as you can see when he defends the mount. However, he didn't have enough to understand not to go for the eye gouge from an inferior position.l''_
> 
> ...



Well, while you have a good point, the quote you posted is simply someones own thoughts and viewpoints of the fight, so its really just opinoins at best. No one really knows what the "kung fu guy" was planning or thought....do you? Obviously it was something other than serious fight training, but we can't really debate his thoughts, ideas, or plans can we?


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## Odin (Dec 7, 2006)

7starmantis said:


> Well, while you have a good point, the quote you posted is simply someones own thoughts and viewpoints of the fight, so its really just opinoins at best. No one really knows what the "kung fu guy" was planning or thought....do you? Obviously it was something other than serious fight training, but we can't really debate his thoughts, ideas, or plans can we?


 
You can see him clearly going for eye gouges in the film...and also pulling the MMA guys hair.

All we can do is express our thoughts and opinions its the best way to get a conclusion.


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## bcbernam777 (Dec 7, 2006)

Odin said:


> but i think everyone should now relise its not that easy.



Thats the thing about any form of fighting it just isnt easy


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## Odin (Dec 7, 2006)

bcbernam777 said:


> Thats the thing about any form of fighting it just isnt easy


 
Agreed.

It just annoys me when people have the whole ''if he does this i would just do this'' mentality, when reality is much different.


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## Whitebelt (Dec 7, 2006)

Where is the arm snap? I didn't see it. Is it that little lock at the end that snaps his sholder or is it somewhere else?


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## zDom (Dec 7, 2006)

Odin said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It just annoys me when people have the whole ''if he does this i would just do this'' mentality, when reality is much different.



I completely agree. But then, that happens on both sides of the MMA-TMA debate.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 7, 2006)

I used to get all ready to lay out my views whenever this stuff came up, and even had a good, and civil discussion with some of the more opinionated folk on BOTH sides at various points, now all's I do is stay near my helmet when the flames start, duck and cover behind the couch till everybody's knocked each other out and abscond with the leftover beer keg *shrug*.


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## bcbernam777 (Dec 7, 2006)

Odin said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It just annoys me when people have the whole ''if he does this i would just do this'' mentality, when reality is much different.



Aboslutly agree


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## D Dempsey (Dec 7, 2006)

I would of expected the same results in any scenario that pits a professional fighter against a recreational martial arts practicionar regardless of the style.


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## matt.m (Dec 8, 2006)

I think he should have made him tap.  Breaking his arm was uncalled for.


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