# Arnis the dying art?



## Black Grass (Jun 5, 2003)

This whole idea that arnis was a dying art and that Prof. some how saved it  I think a little over exagerated by some Modern Arnis people.

The FMA until the late 60's early 70's was seen as a thugs art. Close you eyes and think of an eskrima master training with a cigerette hanging from his lips seems reasonable. No imagine someone in a karate gi doing the same. It seems absurd.

Karate and TKD became popular as it became fashionable because :

1) It took money to take these arts, so it was a way to show off status.

2) It was foreign and exotic, pinoys had a inferioity complex. Things that were home grown were seen as inferior. Karate and TKD with clean white uniforms all moving in unision in a dojo must haved looked very cool. Compare the to how other most FMA was practiced in street clothes in outside or in the alley.

Not to take anything away from the Prof. as he did tirelessly push FMA, but he was not the only reason the FMA grew in popluarity.

I believe it had more to do with the cultural revolution the Philippines went through during the 60'and 70's. Just as in west a rise in student/youth activitism took place. What happened was a cultural re-awakening of Pinoys looking inward to there own culture. I parallel this to the rise of black nationalism or back to africa movements that happen in the African American community in the US.

The FMAs were not dying but they were not growing. The Prof. paved the way for respectability of the FMA with organized ciriculm, uniforms and rankings. This is what makes the modern in Modern Arnis.

However, oddly enough this move to modern can be attributed to the loss of effectivness that some on this form might say has happened to modern FMA (not just modern arnis) Just as in the japanese "do" methods. But I like I've said before there is room for every one.


Vince
aka Black Grass


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 5, 2003)

Actually if you look in GM Remy's pink book "Modern Arnis Philippine Martial Art Stick Fighting" you will see a commendation issued by the City of Iloilo recognizing Mr. Remy A. Presas as the person responsible for reviving the ancient Filipino art of Arnis.  This is a copy of the official document.   Also a friend of mine just got back from P.I.  He had related to me conversations that he had with the old timers and basically said that Remy was the man responsible for getting people back into their culture.  This is not to say that other people weren't part of the movement, but he was credited as being the driving force.


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> *1)This whole idea that arnis was a dying art and that Prof. some how saved it  I think a little over exagerated by some Modern Arnis people.
> 
> Not to take anything away from the Prof. as he did tirelessly push FMA, but he was not the only reason the FMA grew in popluarity.
> ...



Vince
I pretty much agree with most of your points.

1)  The way it's stated here and the way that I have read and heard the phase I can see what you mean.  However in the foreword of GM Remy's Pink book he states the following.

"Long ago, Arnis was a dying Filipino martial art, because of the wrong concepts in teaching the art to every student.  The old practionars believed that the cane was sacred, thus blocking was aimed at the hand and the forearm and not at the cane.  Most of the students got hurt and they automatically lost interest in learning arnis. ..... I have modified many antiquated techniques and introduced new ones which are easy to learn."

From this it sounds like GM Remy changed the way he taught the art and the concepts behind the art.  And these factors helped make the art more appealing to students, thereby growing the system. 

2) By adopting the ideas of japanese belt ranks, ciricculm, teaching to a large group of people, etc. etc. and spreading the art into the school systems and the military he influenced a large group of people.  Who weren't practicing the art before.

3) I would agree that by modernizing the art it might have made it less effective for individual stick fighting, however by modernizing it made it more effective for the majority of people.  

While I don't know if the statement about believing the cane was sacred is the reason why the hands were struck with the cane.  I have read/heard from some different sources that they did strike the hands and it was painful and people didn't want to learn it.  So if people weren't wanting to learn it then in a sense it would be dieing as an art.

Mark


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## thekuntawman (Jun 5, 2003)

blackgrass,

that was a good post with a lot of thought.

i know that modern arnis got a good beginning, when modern arnis was used to replace physical education in schools. some of the teachers in the province did look down on this type of "safe arnis", but modern arnis was most peoples introduction to the philippine martial arts? how many times did you meet a girl, who knows how to do abaniko 1 and 2 strikes, and the modern arnis basic 6 hits, but she does know much martial arts. i remember at a philippine festival in sacramento, when i was selling sticks, and some teenage girls were doing the basic sinawali (presas style #2) that they "picked up". a lot of the arnisadors who complained are actually jealous. but the organization of arnis taught many filipinos how to present there art with class and how to be professional. i know because of my introduction to arjuken and lito lanada's kuntaw ng pilipinas, it taught me how to teach my own art as a businessman.

on the other hand, arnis and eskrima was already practiced by a lots of people, and there was NO chance that the arts would die out. sure we didnt have the popularity of karate and kung fu, but i dont believe its needed. so what if not many people want to do the philippine arts. true fighting arts is not for everyone, and the only way to make it "for everybody" is to make it soft and easy to learn. all styles of teaching and practice have there own place and a purpose. i just think that what hurt the FMA is when most the FMA is the soft method, and people expect that to be the preferred way to teach it.

i dont believe the filipino arts have respect as a fighting style because of the seminar people. yeah, they talk tough, but they have as much concept and theory as the hard style karate they like to laugh at. we cant even prove our effectiveness because most FMA people talk that sparring isnt "real enough", but there is not enough FMA who wants to do "real fighting".

i dont think that FMA is dying, but i do believe that hardcore, traditional FMA is being replace by seminar FMA. even pekiti tirsia a great fighting style, today you can learn the style by video!


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 5, 2003)

Here is also an interesting point of view.  I don't know why but often one culture will adopt something very foreign to it's own culture and that will outgrow the native aspect.  Boxing and wrestling are part of American culture yet you see the proliferation of asian martial arts.  I'll bet that's the same thing that happened wiht taekwondo and karate in the PI.
Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## moromoro (Jun 5, 2003)

> This whole idea that arnis was a dying art and that Prof. some how saved it I think a little over exagerated by some Modern Arnis people



this statement was not justified. i agree with the professor that in some places of the philippines it was infact dying by there is one place where it was not definately not (CEBU) it was never ever ever dying in cebu the 30's to the 70's there was a increase popularity of eskrima. the prof himself went to cebu to learn balintawak.

Yes it was dying in most places by in cebu it was not, 

give credit for the prof for beginning MA teaching in schools and made it part of our educational department. But cebu has was and always will be the stronghold of ESKRIMA.



thanks

terry


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## thekuntawman (Jun 6, 2003)

okay i know in some boxing gym, they have "gentlemans' boxing", where you train, but no sparring. soppose there was "modern boxing"? you have so many people who like to watch boxing, but such a few people do it, because its painful and hard work. so all of a sudden you can become a boxer without the hard training, a champion without having to fight matches, even a trainer and open your own gyms! in the amount of time most boxers get to a point where he starts competing, the "modern boxer" becomes a trainer, and 10 years later he is a world champion. now, millions of people become boxers and they consider themself equal to the "traditional" boxer, who still fights.

after all, boxing was dangerous and dying, since most people would not ever step into the ring or a gym until moder boxing came out.

this is the same thing that arnis people see the (not exactly Modern Arnis) seminar or modern method of arnis.


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## Rocky (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *okay i know in some boxing gym, they have "gentlemans' boxing", where you train, but no sparring. soppose there was "modern boxing"? you have so many people who like to watch boxing, but such a few people do it, because its painful and hard work. so all of a sudden you can become a boxer without the hard training, a champion without having to fight matches, even a trainer and open your own gyms! in the amount of time most boxers get to a point where he starts competing, the "modern boxer" becomes a trainer, and 10 years later he is a world champion. now, millions of people become boxers and they consider themself equal to the "traditional" boxer, who still fights.
> 
> after all, boxing was dangerous and dying, since most people would not ever step into the ring or a gym until moder boxing came out.
> ...




WOoooo Wooooooo skippy, take it easy there killer!!! You obviously do not understand Modern Arnis. However it is not your fault. You are correct in saying that many a Modern Arnis practioners can't fight. But the biggist miss conception about Modern Arnis is that it makes you an ESKRIMADOR!!! Remy never set out to make people Eskrimadors, he taught a few of us traditionally but for the most part his interest was teaching " Modern Arnis the Filipino art of self defense. He showed people primarily Karate people how to incorperate Modern Arnis to handle an armed opponent. He also was great at teaching a non Martial artist self defense with and against a weapon quickly.

   Remy never claimed to make people Eskrimadors, unfortunatly many of his students fail to understand this!! And there in lies   the misconception that so many traditionalist see.

Rocky


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *Remy never claimed to make people Eskrimadors, unfortunatly many of his students fail to understand this!! And there in lies   the misconception that so many traditionalist see. *



Agreed.:asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 6, 2003)

Rocco,
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and again.

Dan


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## arnisador (Jun 6, 2003)

I too am in full agreement with *Rocky*. Great point, well said.


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## arnisandyz (Jun 20, 2003)

Do you think the "revival" of Arnis in the Philippines also has to do with the renewed cultural pride in general?  Many of you know much more than I do about current affairs in the PI, but my wife (she is a Pilipina and grew up and lived in the Philippines until a couple years ago) was telling me that the PI could have been a US territory similar to Guam, but was turned down by the government and Filipino people.  Some say it was turned down because for so long, the Philippines had to fight for its independence, they didn't want to be under foreign rule again.  Its no surprise that Filipinos are a proud people (read Kuntawman and moromoros posts!).  Could it be somewhat similar to African/African Americans feeling a revived pride in there national culture?

Not to take anything away from Professor Presas,  but I think he was the right man, in the right place, at the right time.  It may have been a combination of events and efforts that revived FMA.

Andy


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## arnisandyz (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL...sorry Blackgrass,

after reading through eveyones posts and submitting my reply, I went back and read your original post again, and i basically said the same exact thing you said!  I guess I'm in agreement with you...what BlackGrass said!


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## juramentado (Jun 21, 2003)

Dying..whether modern arnis is dying is debatable. 

But this much I know. There's a growing revivalist attitude among FMA people in the Philippines. People from the different styles are building friendships and there's a concerted effort to make Filipinos realize the full potential of their martial arts.


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## thekuntawman (Jun 21, 2003)

matches are good for martial artists of different styles to become friends. why i say this, is because you always think you can beat the next guy. at least when you have a match with him, you know if you can, and you truly respect his skill, not just speak up for him because you like this guy. this is something that is missing from todays FMA community, that no one can really respect another guys fighting ability from experience. if there were more matches you would see more respect going back and forth between fighters and masters, and definitely more honest friendships (they would either really say he's a friend, or openly have a rivalry).

if you look at the older manong, they respected each other, and you had many friendships that are healthy, since sparring partners learned from each other. either they taught each other their own tricks, or they used each other to test his own theories. and yes, not to many people practiced eskrima, but i believe this is when eskrima was the most alive.


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