# Disciplining Kids



## Lynne

My time is coming.  If I pass my spotlights and tests, I will become a 3rd gup, red belt, in November.  At that time, it's a requirement that I "swat."  SWAT stands for students working as teachers.

My daughter just began swatting.  The first class went great.  Mind you, there is a black belt instructor and swatters are there to assist, not take over the class.  Basically, swatters are to correct students that the instructor cannot see.  An instructor cannot see all 10 kids doing a form.  Classes can range up to 45 students or more and there are usually 4 instructors.

The second class was wild. I think it's because the kids were having fun week. (That's hell week for adults though.)  The kids get to do fun activities like tumbling, balancing, and jumping over obstacles (plyometrics).  They were being terrors.  One red belt kid kept taking his belt off but wasn't old enough to know how to tie it, so my daughter kept tying it back on.  She'd told him to not take his belt off but he ignored her.  The kids were taking the ends of their belts and slapping each other with them, trying to start fights.  They began lying and saying so-and-so jumped ahead when so-and-so hadn't.

The instructor threatened to make several of the boys sit out.  They became more boisterous because they wanted to sit out.

I suppose there isn't much you can do since the days of bamboo spankings are over.  Not that I would want anyone touching my child, period.

Parents.  Therein lies a problem, too.  Parents have gotten into it with the instructors when an instructor was verbally admonishing a child for bad behavior.

My daughter hasn't swatted enough for us to know if the kids are like this on a regular basis or just special occasions where they are hyped up.  I expect Christmas and Halloween and such would be crazy.

So, there isn't much you can do, I suppose.  Is it mainly holidays and such that the kids act up?

What do you do to discipline children?


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## terryl965

Push ups, sit ups, crunches and running. Anything to keep them moving if it continues a sit down with the parent and then suspension after that they are ask to leave.
Period no room for dis behaving kids and parents that do not care.


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## Steve

At my school, the instructor keeps the kids busy, and that seems to do the trick.  When they're tired or working hard, they don't tend to screw around.

Another option is to reduce the number of kids in the class.  If the instructors are having too much trouble controlling the kids, there are too many kids.

Also, you mention that he "threatened to make several of the boys sit out."  Make them sit out.  Don't threaten.  If it's what they want, great.  Having kids in the class who don't want to be there diminishes the value for those kids who DO want to be there.

And invite them to leave the class on a particular day if they're being too disruptive.  No sitting out; just ask them to leave.

Ultimately, as a junior instructor, you won't have any more control over the kids than your senior instructor.  If he or she doesn't have control, no one does.


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## DavidCC

do you have those brass rings in the dojo?  Put on of those on each wrist and have them hold their arms out in front or to the side for a few minutes.


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## Lynne

terryl965 said:


> Push ups, sit ups, crunches and running. Anything to keep them moving if it continues a sit down with the parent and then suspension after that they are ask to leave.
> Period no room for dis behaving kids and parents that do not care.


 
I wondered about having them do something that would just tire the devil out of them.  Master R was teaching the other day and I saw that he had the red belt kids doing squat thrusts AFTER class.  I don't know if that was punishment or endurance training for red belts.

I can't imagine Master R letting the kids get away with anything.  I remember not too long go when he lectured them and he was not happy.

The day the kids were acting up with my daughter, Master R was not there.

I agree that there is no room for kids who misbehave.  Some parents bring their kids to class because they are discipline problems at home.  I would imagine that MA turns most of them around.  Well, it will be interesting to see how it goes.  I think I'm terrified of having to swat.


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## Lynne

stevebjj said:


> At my school, the instructor keeps the kids busy, and that seems to do the trick. When they're tired or working hard, they don't tend to screw around.
> 
> Another option is to reduce the number of kids in the class. If the instructors are having too much trouble controlling the kids, there are too many kids.
> 
> Also, you mention that he "threatened to make several of the boys sit out." Make them sit out. Don't threaten. If it's what they want, great. Having kids in the class who don't want to be there diminishes the value for those kids who DO want to be there.
> 
> And invite them to leave the class on a particular day if they're being too disruptive. No sitting out; just ask them to leave.
> 
> Ultimately, as a junior instructor, you won't have any more control over the kids than your senior instructor. If he or she doesn't have control, no one does.


 Funny you should mention class size.  They just split the classes up - green and red are in one class; white, yellow and orange are in another instead of all in one.

When the kids were goofing off, they were lined up waiting their turn for an activity, or they were sitting and waiting.  I'm not an instructor so I will have no say-so, but having those waiting do jumping jacks or bouncing would be a good idea.  As adults, we never stand idle in line...but that's to keep our heart rates up


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## Lynne

DavidCC said:


> do you have those brass rings in the dojo? Put on of those on each wrist and have them hold their arms out in front or to the side for a few minutes.


 Afraid not.


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## terryl965

Lynne said:


> I wondered about having them do something that would just tire the devil out of them. Master R was teaching the other day and I saw that he had the red belt kids doing squat thrusts AFTER class. I don't know if that was punishment or endurance training for red belts.
> 
> I can't imagine Master R letting the kids get away with anything. I remember not too long go when he lectured them and he was not happy.
> 
> The day the kids were acting up with my daughter, Master R was not there.
> 
> I agree that there is no room for kids who misbehave. Some parents bring their kids to class because they are discipline problems at home. I would imagine that MA turns most of them around. Well, it will be interesting to see how it goes. I think I'm terrified of having to swat.


 

your last statement is so true 98% of all the kids we have had a problem, but when they sign up we have sit down with each parent and explain we can help lay down the foundation here but you must keep it going at home when shopping and the rest of the time. No matter what we cannot make them do what the parents will not participate in.


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## Andy Moynihan

See, I'm sorry, this is a major reason I left one school when younger( it was a less than great school to start with, this was just "the last straw")

There is no....NO earthly reason anyone should be made to teach unless they make known their desire to become teachers/school owners themselves.

Far as I'm concerned this is just the school owners withholding rank to get free labor out of students, and it's bull****.


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## Lynne

terryl965 said:


> your last statement is so true 98% of all the kids we have had a problem, but when they sign up we have sit down with each parent and explain we can help lay down the foundation here but you must keep it going at home when shopping and the rest of the time. No matter what we cannot make them do what the parents will not participate in.


 
Oh, you mean they still need to be a parent!   I shouldn't make jokes really.  Some kids are problems no matter how good the parenting is.

That's great you lay down a foundation and ask the parents to follow through.  I feel blessed that I did not have a problem child.


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## terryl965

Lynne said:


> Oh, you mean they still need to be a parent!  I shouldn't make jokes really. Some kids are problems no matter how good the parenting is.
> 
> That's great you lay down a foundation and ask the parents to follow through. I feel blessed that I did not have a problem child.


 
Me too!!!


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## Lynne

Andy Moynihan said:


> See, I'm sorry, this is a major reason I left one school when younger( it was a less than great school to start with, this was just "the last straw")
> 
> There is no....NO earthly reason anyone should be made to teach unless they make known their desire to become teachers/school owners themselves.
> 
> Far as I'm concerned this is just the school owners withholding rank to get free labor out of students, and it's bull****.


 Well, it will certainly be a learning experience.  I was good with kids when my daughter was in grade school.  They just loved me.  Kindergartners are allowed to scream and be a little crazy.  And I could give them hugs, make jewelry for them, and put them on my lap.  I was like a second mom or a bestfriend.  But the MA atmosphere is going to be different.

I do wonder how some people will do swatting.  Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher.  But we have to do it at least once EVERY week.  That's at least one-and-a-half years or however long it takes to make black belt.  Our GM wants black belts who are active.  (My idea of active is coming to class regularly and teaching at higher rank but much more is required than that to make black belt.)


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## Kacey

Students who are disrupting class should either be given something repetitive to do (to keep them busy for a while, and tire them out at the same time) or should be removed from class.  It is not fair to students who are there to learn that instruction is less available because there are students who aren't doing what they should.

In this particular example, if the boy kept taking off his belt when being told not to do so, then he should have, IMHO, been booted out of class.  He was wasting other students' time.  Being able to dress yourself (including tying your belt) is a requirement for yellow belt in my class - I cannot imagine why a red belt would not be able to do so.

As far as the group of boys who were goofing around and lying - that is totally unacceptable to me in a dojang situation.  If they wanted out of class badly enough to disrupt class - then let them out.  If they quit, or their parents take them out, because they were booted out because of their behavior, so be it.  If I were a student in that class, or the parent of a student in that class, and saw myself or my child *regularly* not getting instruction because someone else's child(ren) would not behave, I would be extremely upset - and would probably hit the point rather rapidly of saying "either the disruptive kid(s) leave, or I/my child will".  It may sound harsh - but if you're paying for instruction, and not getting it because of some other student - then you're getting gypped out of your money, and something needs to be done.

As far as _requiring_ students to teach - I expect my students to help with their peers and juniors during the regular class time - but I have never, and would never, require them to come in during another time to help teach.  If they want to do so - great!  But requiring it outside of their regular class time falls under mandatory volunteer work - and even if I thought that was acceptable, there are laws against _mandating_ unpaid work.  If you get a discount on your dues, that's one thing - but otherwise, it's quite likely illegal.


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## MJS

Lynne said:


> My time is coming. If I pass my spotlights and tests, I will become a 3rd gup, red belt, in November. At that time, it's a requirement that I "swat." SWAT stands for students working as teachers.
> 
> My daughter just began swatting. The first class went great. Mind you, there is a black belt instructor and swatters are there to assist, not take over the class. Basically, swatters are to correct students that the instructor cannot see. An instructor cannot see all 10 kids doing a form. Classes can range up to 45 students or more and there are usually 4 instructors.
> 
> The second class was wild. I think it's because the kids were having fun week. (That's hell week for adults though.) The kids get to do fun activities like tumbling, balancing, and jumping over obstacles (plyometrics). They were being terrors. One red belt kid kept taking his belt off but wasn't old enough to know how to tie it, so my daughter kept tying it back on. She'd told him to not take his belt off but he ignored her. The kids were taking the ends of their belts and slapping each other with them, trying to start fights. They began lying and saying so-and-so jumped ahead when so-and-so hadn't.
> 
> The instructor threatened to make several of the boys sit out. They became more boisterous because they wanted to sit out.
> 
> I suppose there isn't much you can do since the days of bamboo spankings are over. Not that I would want anyone touching my child, period.
> 
> Parents. Therein lies a problem, too. Parents have gotten into it with the instructors when an instructor was verbally admonishing a child for bad behavior.
> 
> My daughter hasn't swatted enough for us to know if the kids are like this on a regular basis or just special occasions where they are hyped up. I expect Christmas and Halloween and such would be crazy.
> 
> So, there isn't much you can do, I suppose. Is it mainly holidays and such that the kids act up?
> 
> What do you do to discipline children?


 
The situps and pushups have worked for me in the past.  Of course, if the kid can't do them properly, then theres really no sense in having them do them, because they're not going to be doing them right.  An alternative for that was to hold the pushup position.  Yes, they got tired and raised or lowered themselves, but I'd make them get right back to the proper position.  If people are being that disruptive, remove them from the class altogether.  I didn't put up with fooling around when I taught.  It didn't matter if the kid was 5 or 12, if they were fooling around, they were taking away from not only my time, but from the others who are not fooling around.  

At my last school, the head instructor pretty much backed the decisions of his instructors.  So, if I removed someone from class, made them do 50 pushups, etc. we usually weren't questioned, and if a parent was getting to the point where they couldn't understand why we made their kid sit out, he had no problem with telling someone to leave.  

IMO, we (the instructors) are there to teach.  The students are there to learn.  Like I said above, if someone is fooling around, I have to stop and take away from the people who are paying attn. and that isnt fair.  If the parents can't understand this, then they have no business sending their kid for lessons, because they're obviously not ready.  What happens in school?  The kid would go to the principals office.


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## Lynne

Kacey said:


> Students who are disrupting class should either be given something repetitive to do (to keep them busy for a while, and tire them out at the same time) or should be removed from class. It is not fair to students who are there to learn that instruction is less available because there are students who aren't doing what they should.
> 
> In this particular example, if the boy kept taking off his belt when being told not to do so, then he should have, IMHO, been booted out of class. He was wasting other students' time. Being able to dress yourself (including tying your belt) is a requirement for yellow belt in my class - I cannot imagine why a red belt would not be able to do so.
> 
> As far as the group of boys who were goofing around and lying - that is totally unacceptable to me in a dojang situation. If they wanted out of class badly enough to disrupt class - then let them out. If they quit, or their parents take them out, because they were booted out because of their behavior, so be it. If I were a student in that class, or the parent of a student in that class, and saw myself or my child *regularly* not getting instruction because someone else's child(ren) would not behave, I would be extremely upset - and would probably hit the point rather rapidly of saying "either the disruptive kid(s) leave, or I/my child will". It may sound harsh - but if you're paying for instruction, and not getting it because of some other student - then you're getting gypped out of your money, and something needs to be done.
> 
> As far as _requiring_ students to teach - I expect my students to help with their peers and juniors during the regular class time - but I have never, and would never, require them to come in during another time to help teach. If they want to do so - great! But requiring it outside of their regular class time falls under mandatory volunteer work - and even if I thought that was acceptable, there are laws against _mandating_ unpaid work. If you get a discount on your dues, that's one thing - but otherwise, it's quite likely illegal.


 It is definitely outside of our class time.  We swat children in children's class; we go to adult class.  I never thought of it as being illegal.  No discount on the dues.  If you don't do it, you will never test for black belt. (There may be exceptions for people with learning disabilities. I wouldn't expect that they could teach necessarily.)


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## Kacey

Lynne said:


> It is definitely outside of our class time.  We swat children in children's class; we go to adult class.  I never thought of it as being illegal.  No discount on the dues.  If you don't do it, you will never test for black belt. (There may be exceptions for people with learning disabilities. I wouldn't expect that they could teach necessarily.)



As an aside - learning disabilities generally affect the ability to learn to read, write, or do math; I cannot see it being relevant to teaching a physical activity - any person so impacted as to be unable to teach a physical ability is unlikely to be able to learn it in the first place, and that goes well beyond a learning disability.

My students help me in class; I expect it, and none of them have ever complained, because they have all benefited from the extra help themselves at some point.  Requiring someone to work for free is illegal; I don't know how making it a testing requirement affects that, but I suspect it's still illegal - what about people whose schedules/responsibilities preclude their attending the kids' class?  What about students with transportation problems?  When I started TKD, I didn't have a car - I took a bus - there's no way I could have gotten there any earlier due to the bus schedule, and I had to leave class exactly on time or I missed the last bus, and there was no way I was going to walk home 8 miles, starting in downtown Denver after dark.  What about single parents with children who are not in the class?  There are a lot of issues I could think of that would prevent a motivated student from being able to assist at the kids' class - should those people all be denied a black belt solely because their lives prevent them from "volunteering" for a mandatory requirement?  That does not seem appropriate to me.


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## Andy Moynihan

As I said--bovine fecal matter.

But we did it to ourselves the moment we decided back whenever it was that it was OK to teach MA's to persons under 18.


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## jks9199

Lynne said:


> I wondered about having them do something that would just tire the devil out of them.  Master R was teaching the other day and I saw that he had the red belt kids doing squat thrusts AFTER class.  I don't know if that was punishment or endurance training for red belts.
> 
> I can't imagine Master R letting the kids get away with anything.  I remember not too long go when he lectured them and he was not happy.
> 
> The day the kids were acting up with my daughter, Master R was not there.
> 
> I agree that there is no room for kids who misbehave.  Some parents bring their kids to class because they are discipline problems at home.  I would imagine that MA turns most of them around.  Well, it will be interesting to see how it goes.  I think I'm terrified of having to swat.


That's a tactic I've used with distracted or unenergized kids...  If they can't pay attention, it must be time for some exercise.  The front leaning rest (up position of a push-up) can be a good punishment; rather than simply sitting on the sideline, have them hold the front leaning rest for several minutes.


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## DavidCC

2 inch leg raises, flat in their back, hands at sides, heels 2 inches off the floor.  And put another (well behaved) kid in charge of them to make sure they don't cheat.


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## Lynne

It has been said that parents have interfered when their kids were being lectured or punished.  They've actually leaned over the half-wall that goes around the training area or have attempted to enter the training area.

I had to laugh at what my daughter said.  She was pretty steamed the night the kids were so bad and she had a pounding headache after (she also attended adult class after the kid's class and we were having hell week - rough class).  She feels the parents aren't doing their jobs in disciplining but the instructor's hand are basically tied because parents complain if their kids are disciplined.  I asked her what she would do if she was telling a child to behave and the parent came over and fussed at her.  She said she would tell the parent, "I'm disciplining them because obviously they aren't receiving discipline at home."  I couldn't help but laugh.  That's pretty wise for an 18 year old.  I told her, "Don't you dare say something like that."  :jediduel:


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## Lynne

The kids were much better tonight.  I think were just hyped up and bored previously (during fun week, waiting for their turn).  One three-year old was trying out and she was bored.  My daughter wasn't quite sure what to do


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## JustAVisitor

My 2 cents:
1- Do not discipline when you are angry, annoyed, blablabla, especially when you are teaching. Be in control of your emotions. Act emotions, especially for kids, so that they are very clear to them. Seriousness, Deception, Anger, Firmness.
2- Give a warning to give a chance to the child, and to calm down. Make it very clear that you mean business(few words, firm voice, stern face).No second, third and so on warnings. One warning is good enough. Apply discipline immediately if the bad behavior is repeated. Be consistent and predictable. This serve two purposes: the limits are known to everyone, everyone can tell whether or not discipline was required. It makes discipline fair.
3- Have a 'favorite' style of punishment. Kids will know what to expect.
4- Remember that discipline is about giving a lesson and not about humiliating.  
5- There are 2 types of lessons to be learned in the context of an MA class and that imply punishment: one's safety and safety of the others (protection), proper behavior (prevention). 
6- Make sure that the punishment is understood by the punished and by the witnesses. Ask to the punished if the lesson is understood. If necessary, take a moment at the end of the class to explain what happened and why it is not an acceptable behavior, so that it is a lesson for everyone.


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## Lynne

JustAVisitor said:


> My 2 cents:
> 1- Do not discipline when you are angry, annoyed, blablabla, especially when you are teaching. Be in control of your emotions. Act emotions, especially for kids, so that they are very clear to them. Seriousness, Deception, Anger, Firmness.
> 2- Give a warning to give a chance to the child, and to calm down. Make it very clear that you mean business(few words, firm voice, stern face).No second, third and so on warnings. One warning is good enough. Apply discipline immediately if the bad behavior is repeated. Be consistent and predictable. This serve two purposes: the limits are known to everyone, everyone can tell whether or not discipline was required. It makes discipline fair.
> 3- Have a 'favorite' style of punishment. Kids will know what to expect.
> 4- Remember that discipline is about giving a lesson and not about humiliating.
> 5- There are 2 types of lessons to be learned in the context of an MA class and that imply punishment: one's safety and safety of the others (protection), proper behavior (prevention).
> 6- Make sure that the punishment is understood by the punished and by the witnesses. Ask to the punished if the lesson is understood. If necessary, take a moment at the end of the class to explain what happened and why it is not an acceptable behavior, so that it is a lesson for everyone.


 Thank you for your wise and informed post.  Much appreciated.  Many things to think about.


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## jks9199

Lynne said:


> The kids were much better tonight.  I think were just hyped up and bored previously (during fun week, waiting for their turn).  One three-year old was trying out and she was bored.  My daughter wasn't quite sure what to do



Personally -- the indicated part is the problem!  A 3 year old is too young for much; they're not going to behave, and they shouldn't be expected to, without almost one-on-one attention.


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## Lynne

jks9199 said:


> Personally -- the indicated part is the problem! A 3 year old is too young for much; they're not going to behave, and they shouldn't be expected to, without almost one-on-one attention.


 I'm curious what a three-year old can get out of Tang Soo Do.  I wouldn't know since I'm not an instructor.


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## DavidCC

I've found that some kids are acting poorly and need to be disciplined, but some kids are really just very "energetic" and need to learn self control and self regulation.  The approach to similar behaviors in the 2 different kids should be different.


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## JustAVisitor

DavidCC said: 





> The approach to similar behaviors in the 2 different kids should be different.


For kids (5 to 12), my experience is that if you act differently for the same mistake, then the misbehaviors will continue just because kids need to find out what the limits are. Establish the limits and keep them clear make things really simpler.
For teenagers (12 to 18) though, i would agree since they understand subtleties, but you will have some explaining to do. Enlarge the limits and leave it to them to find out where things become fuzzy. Be ready about your explanations as they are smart, demanding and defiant. They will easily detect non-sense and abuse of authority. 

There is one last thing that i should have mentioned in my earlier post and that is: get to know the students and respect them. My rule is to never punish a student that i meet for the first time, i much prefer to explain what is expected of him/her. I also take the time to introduce myself to a new class or to a new student.


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## turtle

In some cases, consequences that directly relate to the kid's actions work better than generic punishments. For the red belt who kept taking his belt off and didn't know how to put it back on, I would have taken the belt away after the first couple of times. No belt = no problem. The kid is going to be pretty embarrassed at not having a belt and his parents are going to ask him what happened when he goes home without a belt. Most likely, when he gets the belt back, the problem will disappear on it's own. Same for the kids hitting each other with their belts. Sometimes a little creative thinking saves a lot of talking when it comes to the little kids.


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## Lynne

turtle said:


> In some cases, consequences that directly relate to the kid's actions work better than generic punishments. For the red belt who kept taking his belt off and didn't know how to put it back on, I would have taken the belt away after the first couple of times. No belt = no problem. The kid is going to be pretty embarrassed at not having a belt and his parents are going to ask him what happened when he goes home without a belt. Most likely, when he gets the belt back, the problem will disappear on it's own. Same for the kids hitting each other with their belts. Sometimes a little creative thinking saves a lot of talking when it comes to the little kids.


 I completely agree about confiscating the belts.  I'm not sure if the instructors are allowed to do so though.


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## Kacey

Lynne said:


> I completely agree about confiscating the belts.  I'm not sure if the instructors are allowed to do so though.



Why not?  It's a reasonable outcome - in fact, I've done it once or twice myself... and not always with kids, either.


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## MJS

Lynne said:


> I'm curious what a three-year old can get out of Tang Soo Do. I wouldn't know since I'm not an instructor.


 
Well, you're not alone Lynne.  Personally, I feel that 3 is a bit too young as well.


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## Andy Moynihan

Well, I don't at this time, run a school or teach classes( it will take many more years before that becomes a possibility even if I *DID* wish to) but since I view martial arts as strictly about dealing with real world attacks and would include modern weapons as a subject in addition to the quote-unquote "traditional" empty hand subject matter, I won't even talk to a student until they turn 21 for legal or moral reasons because I would refuse to sell out just to make money off kids.

I would also be prepared, as a natural extension, to make but very little, if any, money doing so, but better that MAs should die out completely than go any further down the path many( but thankfully not all) are on right now.


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## Lynne

Andy Moynihan said:


> Well, I don't at this time, run a school or teach classes( it will take many more years before that becomes a possibility even if I *DID* wish to) but since I view martial arts as strictly about dealing with real world attacks and would include modern weapons as a subject in addition to the quote-unquote "traditional" empty hand subject matter, I won't even talk to a student until they turn 21 for legal or moral reasons because I would refuse to sell out just to make money off kids.
> 
> I would also be prepared, as a natural extension, to make but very little, if any, money doing so, but better that MAs should die out completely than go any further down the path many( but thankfully not all) are on right now.


 
At red belt, we begin using the staff.  At black belt we use escrima sticks as well.  I have seen people using kama (the scythes) and nunchukas.  I can't say whether the very young are using scythes or nunchukas - I've only seen three adults using these items.  However, we do have sword classes and they are open to young students. (I can't imagine our dojang master allowing very young ones to use scythes and nunchukas.)  I doubt I would ever use nunchukas- I'd probably knock myself out.


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## Lynne

MJS said:


> Well, you're not alone Lynne. Personally, I feel that 3 is a bit too young as well.


 It seems they'd be better off in a stunts and tumbling class with children their own age.  I think it would be more enjoyable for them.


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## Lynne

Kacey said:


> Why not? It's a reasonable outcome - in fact, I've done it once or twice myself... and not always with kids, either.


 I don't know if instructors are allowed to confiscate a child's belt.  They may be allowed to.  I just don't know.  That could come in handy...like when they are using their belt as a jump rope.


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## turtle

Well, I did the belt confiscating when it was my own school/class so I can see that assistant instructors might run into a problem. But if an assistant came up to me after class and told me that he/she had felt like that was the best option, I'd back them up in front of the kid/parents.


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## MJS

Lynne said:


> It seems they'd be better off in a stunts and tumbling class with children their own age. I think it would be more enjoyable for them.


 

Simple things can probably be taught, however, the more in-depth we go, there is a good chance they're not going to remember much.  Kicks turn into a leg raise and punches usually look more like a palm strike with the hand closed.  I have seen some kids of that age that seem to be naturals and able to pick things up, but IMO, its few and far between.


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## Andy Moynihan

Lynne said:


> At red belt, we begin using the staff. At black belt we use escrima sticks as well. I have seen people using kama (the scythes) and nunchukas. I can't say whether the very young are using scythes or nunchukas - I've only seen three adults using these items. However, we do have sword classes and they are open to young students. (I can't imagine our dojang master allowing very young ones to use scythes and nunchukas.) I doubt I would ever use nunchukas- I'd probably knock myself out.


 

Well those are what I'd term "traditional" weapons rather than modern ones as I define the term( knives/batons/firearms). You begin to see what I am speaking of when I bring up "legal/moral issues".


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## Lynne

Andy Moynihan said:


> Well those are what I'd term "traditional" weapons rather than modern ones as I define the term( knives/batons/firearms). You begin to see what I am speaking of when I bring up "legal/moral issues".


 I agree with you on the modern weapons, Andy.


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## Lynne

Lo and behold, the 3- and 4-year olds can learn.  My daughter (Bonnie) got them all to do a very good horse stance by having a competition to see who could go the lowest.  And some of them were doing front kicks several inches above their heads.  She held her hand above their heads and they were able to kick her hand.  (Little devils - I wish I could kick like that.)

Bonnie said the main thing was keeping their attention, that she had to think of strategies to keep them focused.  One of the black belts gave her ideas and demonstrated the "goofiness" required


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## foggymorning162

Lynne said:


> I'm curious what a three-year old can get out of Tang Soo Do. I wouldn't know since I'm not an instructor.


 I teach 3 and 4 yr olds we do not teach them "TSD" like we learn or even like the juniors learn although we do start to introduce them to forms and they learn basic kicks, blocks and punches our goal with this age group is to teach focus, respect, discipline, following basic directions and self control. It also gives them a basic background with terminology and etiquitte for their continued training.


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## Tez3

foggymorning162 said:


> I teach 3 and 4 yr olds we do not teach them "TSD" like we learn or even like the juniors learn although we do start to introduce them to forms and they learn basic kicks, blocks and punches our goal with this age group is to teach focus, respect, discipline, following basic directions and self control. It also gives them a basic background with terminology and etiquitte for their continued training.


 
We take them at four, there's no insurance here for any younger than that and we do exactly as you do. It seems to work very well, they go on to the junior class ready to work hard and with confidence.


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Lynne said:


> I wondered about having them do something that would just tire the devil out of them.  Master R was teaching the other day and I saw that he had the red belt kids doing squat thrusts AFTER class.  I don't know if that was punishment or endurance training for red belts.
> 
> I can't imagine Master R letting the kids get away with anything.  I remember not too long go when he lectured them and he was not happy.
> 
> The day the kids were acting up with my daughter, Master R was not there.
> 
> I agree that there is no room for kids who misbehave.  Some parents bring their kids to class because they are discipline problems at home.  I would imagine that MA turns most of them around.  Well, it will be interesting to see how it goes.  I think I'm terrified of having to swat.


I know I struggle with that too a little bit. I'm 3rd degree brown in shotokan and I'm a Jr instructor. I teach the kids classes. The disapline isn't always clear. If I yell at them or make them do push-ups sensei says I'm being to hard on them they are just kids. But then if I ease up they get wild and sensei gets upset with that too.  parents also complain about how we disapline. It's like hello  parents this is karate not romper room . We teach disapline. I do make them do push ups after a verbal warning. What I do now is I run the kids around the dojo to tire them out a little bit. Then do warm ups. I try to teach in a fun way. And at the end of class in ceza position we talk. I ask them what is respect and other questions. I finally got through to them. Last night I told them to take off their sparring gear and grab a water break. I turned to do something At 
 sensei's desk. Turned around again and my students were lined up in correct ranking order , quietly, and in yame (ready ) stance. I was Soooo shocked I actually wanted to cry. All of that hard work and disapline payed off that night


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## Tortoise

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> I know I struggle with that too a little bit. I'm 3rd degree brown in shotokan and I'm a Jr instructor. I teach the kids classes. The disapline isn't always clear. If I yell at them or make them do push-ups sensei says I'm being to hard on them they are just kids. But then if I ease up they get wild and sensei gets upset with that too.  parents also complain about how we disapline. It's like hello  parents this is karate not romper room . We teach disapline. I do make them do push ups after a verbal warning. What I do now is I run the kids around the dojo to tire them out a little bit. Then do warm ups. I try to teach in a fun way. And at the end of class in ceza position we talk. I ask them what is respect and other questions. I finally got through to them. Last night I told them to take off their sparring gear and grab a water break. I turned to do something At
> sensei's desk. Turned around again and my students were lined up in correct ranking order , quietly, and in yame (ready ) stance. I was Soooo shocked I actually wanted to cry. All of that hard work and disapline payed off that night


The best thing you can do is to keep them busy.  Kids do not have the patience to sit and watch other kids run through their material.  If you must watch one kid, give the others some activity to do like an obstacle course or punching/kicking a bag.  Do not leave them too long doing the same thing or they become bored and start doing something else.  Push ups are OK as long as you don't have them spend half the class doing them or something.  Parents do not want to pay for their kids to do push ups.  If this happens too often they will leave.  If the studio has more than enough students, not a problem.  Otherwise, you need to find a solution other than having them do something other than martial arts during their class time.


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Tortoise said:


> The best thing you can do is to keep them busy.  Kids do not have the patience to sit and watch other kids run through their material.  If you must watch one kid, give the others some activity to do like an obstacle course or punching/kicking a bag.  Do not leave them too long doing the same thing or they become bored and start doing something else.  Push ups are OK as long as you don't have them spend half the class doing them or something.  Parents do not want to pay for their kids to do push ups.  If this happens too often they will leave.  If the studio has more than enough students, not a problem.  Otherwise, you need to find a solution other than having them do something other than martial arts during their class time.


 hi yes i totally get what you are saying. When i do the fun stuff they are still learning martial arts i would never do something that didnt include that.i do have some parents tell me if their kids arent listening to not be afraid to put them down for pushups. Alot of stuff that i do teach when i go to teach it again they go yesssss!!!!! The disapline is what i struggle with. I realize alot of schools are different with that and i respect that. I trained in tkd for 6 years. The disapline was always there that everyone fell in line it was rare we had issues. When i went into shotokan at the dojo i started at there was disapline there too. We closed last year. Just not enough students.  my senseis mom owned the school im at now so we went there. when i started there there was very little disapline. So thats why i struggle with it. im used to a more structured school. i just want to be a better teacher and martial artest. I do feel my efforts are paying off.  i did a glo class a couple times and the kids loved it. We did it with kata and glo bracelets. One of the students did bo kata with 2 glo sticks on the ends it was awesome


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## Andrew Green

What age ranges are you teaching?


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## shoto_tiger_girl

6-12 year olds.


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## Andrew Green

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> 6-12 year olds.



All in one class at the same time?


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Yes thats why its so hard to do anything sometimes. When i do warm up ive been told not to make it too hard for the little ones but i feel like the older ones arent being challenged enough. We have a couple of older oned who misbehave and then it influences the little ones. This is why i have a tough time teaching sometimes


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## Andrew Green

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> Yes thats why its so hard to do anything sometimes. When i do warm up ive been told not to make it too hard for the little ones but i feel like the older ones arent being challenged enough. We have a couple of older oned who misbehave and then it influences the little ones. This is why i have a tough time teaching sometimes



 Any possibility of splitting it into two?  Either running both groups at the same time with different instructors or at different times? That's just too big of a difference in age to train everyone the same IMO.


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## shoto_tiger_girl

I wish we could. it would make it so much easier. Sometimes it works out where if some dont come to 1st class i have the same age group. But its hard when we have a night with maybe 2 6 year olds and 7 12 year olds. Because then i cant teach the 6 year olds certian things because they might get hurt. I dont feel like its fair for anyone and our dojo is big but not big enough to seperate the classes. i just kind of roll with it. Ive gotten to the point of making up 4 differnt plans of what to teach.  If we get a mix of the 6-12 yearolds i have one plan if i get more little ones. Then one plan if we have 5 students one night and one if everyone is there which is 13 on average. The other problem is sensei wants to have the higher ranked teenagers help out in first class.there have been a bunch of problems with that. Because it great to have help but sometimes it winds up being 8 teenagers all trying to help and as im teaching and some find that they can start taking over my class. And ive had to say something about it. One in particular doesnt care no matter how much we have told him he still butts in. Then there are other times when no one wants to help they just sit on the bench and are lazy. Some are up for black belt. I have told them of they are helping to raise their hand if they have a comment or come to me and ask if they can help me plan a game at the end of class. So im struggling big time


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## Andrew Green

My experience has been if you don't have a class for a age, you're going to have a hard time keeping that age.  With a 6-12 year age gap it's too big, and your retention is going to suffer and it will be harder to sign kids up.  How old are the teenagers in question?  Are any of them at the point where they could take over the 6-8 year olds with some proper class management training?  

As for having a group, get them to either commit or get out of the way.  And pick the ones that you want there, having that many teenagers on the floor to that small of a group is going to cause more problems then it solves.  Pick one or two of the best and lose the rest.  

I'm assuming you are not the owner of the school?  Where is the owner, can they get on the floor and run the older half?  If not do you have the ability to make decisions on splitting the class or getting more help?  I can't see a class with that big of age gap growing, you can't accommodate them all and end up likely accommodating none of them.  Then they get bored or frustrated and you lose control, then they drop out.


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## Andrew Green

Just as a reference, my school runs kids in 3 & 4 year olds, 5-7 year olds, 8-10 year olds and 11-14 year olds.  The group you got covers kids from 3 of my age groups into one class


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## shoto_tiger_girl

No im not im a 3rd degree brown belt. i totally get what you are saying though. sensei wants everyone together. So there isnt much i can do. the teenagers are 13-15. but the other thing is too the teenagers come in to help and when they dont and just sit and do nothing are still getting credit for "doing"a class they havent done. Yes too many helpers on the floor gets too confusing to the students because they dont know who to listen to. Im frusterated because i really want to be a good teacher and have my own dojo someday. But the lack of orginization and struture and dicipline is making it very difficult to teach. Especially when sensei is there and trying to follow her expectations too.


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Andrew Green said:


> Just as a reference, my school runs kids in 3 & 4 year olds, 5-7 year olds, 8-10 year olds and 11-14 year olds.  The group you got covers kids from 3 of my age groups into one class [/QUOTE


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## Andrew Green

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> sensei wants everyone together.



Do you know what her goals for the school are?  Is she doing / trying to do it full time?  Just a hobby?  Does she want to grow it bigger or is she happy with it's current size?


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## shoto_tiger_girl

I definately hear that. The school i went to before was like that it was split by age group. When the school closed we went to my senseis parents school. And she does it that way 1st class is beginner and 2nd class is high ranked belts


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Sorry i didnt get to finish that. we only have class 2 nights a week if we were open 4 nights we probably could probably split the class up. i told her i would come in early to teach both classes and she said the ladt time she tried that. not enough came to have 2 sperate classes. Since ive been there we have lost 5 people. Alot of the student are kids there are maybe 6 adults out of the whole school that come.


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Andrew Green said:


> Do you know what her goals for the school are?  Is she doing / trying to do it full time?  Just a hobby?  Does she want to grow it bigger or is she happy with it's current size?


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Its defenately her business but sensei id in her mid 60s too. So i almost think she likes the size it is. The school in total has 20 students enrolled. so we are small. The other issue is there are only 2 shotokan schools left in the area i live. Im very passionate about martial arts and take it seriously. It disapoints me that alot of the teenagers dont and all they care about is getting a black belt.some are very disrespectful and shes held them back because she doesnt feel they are ready and there are a few upset parents asking why their kid doest have a black belt yet. Its not about the belt its about learning respect and disapline.


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## Andrew Green

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> Its defenately her business but sensei id in her mid 60s too. So i almost think she likes the size it is. The school in total has 20 students enrolled. so we are small. The other issue is there are only 2 shotokan schools left in the area i live. Im very passionate about martial arts and take it seriously. It disapoints me that alot of the teenagers dont and all they care about is getting a black belt.some are very disrespectful and shes held them back because she doesnt feel they are ready and there are a few upset parents asking why their kid doest have a black belt yet. Its not about the belt its about learning respect and disapline.



Forget about the competition, they really aren't a problem.  Your real competition is soccer practice, dance classes and other activities.  More karate schools helps all the karate schools, and the ones that are the best grow.

At 20 students it's going to be tough.  If you make changes you can get it to grow, but if the owner doesn't want to make changes and grow it won't.  She may see that as selling out, or changing tradition, or any number of things.  But, to be perfectly honest, it's not a very good school.  Good schools grow, it might have good things about it, but it's not a good school.  

I don't care what the subject is, if you put grade 1 students and grade 8 students in the same class and try to teach them the same it's going to fail and you're going to have class management issues.  It's just too many years and they got too much difference.  

You would probably end up with a bigger class by removing kids bellow a certain age, because your retention would go up.  But it would take time, something that could be sped up with marketing, but I suspect she doesn't like paying for marketing?  

Martial Arts is a social activity.  We do it because its fun, and we enjoy the people we do it with.  Especially with kids.  If you can't look at the class and see them in at least the same sort of age range that they might be friends... it's not going to work.   A 6 year old and a 12 year old will not be inviting each other over to hang out after class based on age alone.  Why would they want to hang out in a class together?

Beyond that if discipline is a issue the things to look at would be class structure and curriculum.  If the curriculum is inappropriate for the group you'll have problems, and if the pacing and structure of the class are inappropriate you will have problems.  If they are having fun and learning at the same time a lot of issues will go away, but if the only reason they are there is because mom or dad forced them... well it's going to be no fun for you.

Next thing is are you having fun?  Fun is contagious.  If you're having fun they probably will, if you aren't they probably won't.  Make sure everyone is having fun


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Andrew Green said:


> Forget about the competition, they really aren't a problem.  Your real competition is soccer practice, dance classes and other activities.  More karate schools helps all the karate schools, and the ones that are the best grow.
> 
> At 20 students it's going to be tough.  If you make changes you can get it to grow, but if the owner doesn't want to make changes and grow it won't.  She may see that as selling out, or changing tradition, or any number of things.  But, to be perfectly honest, it's not a very good school.  Good schools grow, it might have good things about it, but it's not a good school.
> 
> I don't care what the subject is, if you put grade 1 students and grade 8 students in the same class and try to teach them the same it's going to fail and you're going to have class management issues.  It's just too many years and they got too much difference.
> 
> You would probably end up with a bigger class by removing kids bellow a certain age, because your retention would go up.  But it would take time, something that could be sped up with marketing, but I suspect she doesn't like paying for marketing?
> 
> Martial Arts is a social activity.  We do it because its fun, and we enjoy the people we do it with.  Especially with kids.  If you can't look at the class and see them in at least the same sort of age range that they might be friends... it's not going to work.   A 6 year old and a 12 year old will not be inviting each other over to hang out after class based on age alone.  Why would they want to hang out in a class together?
> 
> Beyond that if discipline is a issue the things to look at would be class structure and curriculum.  If the curriculum is inappropriate for the group you'll have problems, and if the pacing and structure of the class are inappropriate you will have problems.  If they are having fun and learning at the same time a lot of issues will go away, but if the only reason they are there is because mom or dad forced them... well it's going to be no fun for you.
> 
> Next thing is are you having fun?  Fun is contagious.  If you're having fun they probably will, if you aren't they probably won't.  Make sure everyone is having fun


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## shoto_tiger_girl

You make a totally excellent point.  i try to defintately have fun and create fun classes for everyone. I also trained in tae kwon do too and that school had structure and disapline as well. to tell the truth i feel like im not totally growing as a martial artist. It's hard to even learn anything in 2nd class. We do kata in line for example and are told to stay together and the teenagers don't they do it fast the kata is,sloppy. etc. But yes we are the 1 out of 2 schools left in the area that teach shotokan. I'm making headway for the discipline in the kids class. But still frustrated.  Sorry I probably got way off subject. The only thing I can do is just keep doing what I'm doing for now. I guess. I don't know what else to do. She won't change things at least not now. She is very traditional too and set in her ways


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## Andrew Green

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> You make a totally excellent point.  i try to defintately have fun and create fun classes for everyone. I also trained in tae kwon do too and that school had structure and disapline as well. to tell the truth i feel like im not totally growing as a martial artist. It's hard to even learn anything in 2nd class. We do kata in line for example and are told to stay together and the teenagers don't they do it fast the kata is,sloppy. etc. But yes we are the 1 out of 2 schools left in the area that teach shotokan. I'm making headway for the discipline in the kids class. But still frustrated.  Sorry I probably got way off subject. The only thing I can do is just keep doing what I'm doing for now. I guess. I don't know what else to do. She won't change things at least not now. She is very traditional too and set in her ways



I don't mean any offence or think you should move... but why are you there?  I'm just curious as I imagine there is something that keeps you there vs going somewhere else.  What is it?


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Andrew Green said:


> I don't mean any offence or think you should move... but why are you there?  I'm just curious as I imagine there is something that keeps you there vs going somewhere else.  What is it?


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## shoto_tiger_girl

No offence taken lol  basically i have been on the fence for sometime. The reson i stay is there is only one other shotokan school and they only meet 1 night a week which wont satisfy me. The kids really do love it when i teach. If im out sick they tell me when i come back that they miss me. I love to teach and some schools dont let their brown belts teach. Im so close to black i dont want to drop out. There are alot of factors why i stay. I hope it doesnt sound like gripe fest im just kinda feeling lost. I know alot gets lost in texts and emails lol.


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## Andrew Green

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> No offence taken lol  basically i have been on the fence for sometime. The reson i stay is there is only one other shotokan school and they only meet 1 night a week which wont satisfy me. The kids really do love it when i teach. If im out sick they tell me when i come back that they miss me. I love to teach and some schools dont let their brown belts teach. Im so close to black i dont want to drop out. There are alot of factors why i stay. I hope it doesnt sound like gripe fest im just kinda feeling lost. I know alot gets lost in texts and emails lol.



I didn't get that impression, was just curious if there was a reason you could use to apply in your recruitment efforts.

Anyways, you said above you want to run  your own school one day, and that is awesome.  Someone that likes teaching kids and wants to carry on with that is a valuable asset to any school, You might have more influence then you realize.

My advice would be to do what you can to make the classes awesome.  It might be tricky given some of the ways your hands are tied, but do it.  Eventually you will either end up with the clout to make those decisions and modernize your school or start your own.

Second piece of advice would be start chatting with and getting into groups that have school owners, instructors, program directors, etc. in them discussing things about running and growing a school.

You sound like you come from a similar background to where I started, great little club that no one has the desire to really grow.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with those clubs, but they tend to be a little set in there ways.  If you want to run one and make a go of it as a career you'll need to supplement that karate knowledge with some business knowledge.

At a larger scale I think you can provide a bigger increase in value to your students, and I get the impression you agree.  If there was more age groups you'd be able to run a better class, but you can;t get more age groups until the class grows, creating a bit of a dilemma.

Different pieces of changes are going to let you grow a little more.  Figure out what your boss wants to see happen and then get ways to make that happen.  It might not always be the method she thinks though.  Is it more students?   Is she trying to get a team of instructors ready so she can retire? Maybe she just wants a group of people to train with herself and the rest is just what she needs to get it?


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Yes I definitely want to have my own school someday. I'm quite a few years from that. Traditionally in shotokan I can't have my own school until I'm at least a second degree black belt. I'm only a 3rd degree brown so I still have several years to go  yes she's talked on and off about retiring and giving the school to her son. With his job he can't take over the school right now. and there are no other black belts. She needs to be there to promote the 1st degree black belts and the ones up are all teenagers which they are too young to run the dojo especiallyfor insurance reasons. So it's kind of she's caught between a rock and a hard place. Yeah it's a little rough when there are a coupleof us that take it seriously and alot of them do not. I have made some friends too. I love teaching. Yes the kids are finally starting to straighten out. I think where I've been consistently teachingI think it helps they know who to look to.


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## Andrew Green

You might not be ready to take on a school, but there are things you can take on.  Would you be up for taking on some marketing & sales?  Maybe make the classes grow a little.  

One other thought, Fire up a instructor training plan.  Get some resources together and have a course, if the teenagers want to help out they got to go through the course first.  Having them on the floor when they haven't been trained on how to be useful on the floor is no good.  Make it very clear what they are and are not allowed to do at each stage of their training in the instructor training program.


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Thats an awesome idea. They should have to go through a course before they can teach  yes id love to learn the business and marketing end of it. My friends school is really successful too. His is kenpo. Yeah another school I know of has their 1st degree browns do a community service project which I think they should do at our school too. thank you for all the guidance I appreciate any ideas you have. I want to be a really great sensei some day


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## Andrew Green

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> Thats an awesome idea. They should have to go through a course before they can teach  yes id love to learn the business and marketing end of it



Do it, there is absolutely no reason anyone should ever be on the floor teaching without first being taught how to teach.  Doesn't matter how good someone can throw a kick, teaching is a different skill altogether.  I can point you to different resources and share what we do if you like.  But in the end you got to figure out what works for you from the different approaches and get everyone that is on the floor on board with the same teaching systems.


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## shoto_tiger_girl

Yes i would definately like any info you have  that would be super great


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## WaterGal

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> Yes thats why its so hard to do anything sometimes. When i do warm up ive been told not to make it too hard for the little ones but i feel like the older ones arent being challenged enough. We have a couple of older oned who misbehave and then it influences the little ones. This is why i have a tough time teaching sometimes



You'd be surprised at how much exercise kids in the 6-10 age range can do.  They're the ones competatively sprinting down the room and back, seeing who can plank for the longest, who can do "suicide" drills fastest, etc - much more so than older kids and adults, in my experience.


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## WaterGal

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> Because it great to have help but sometimes it winds up being 8 teenagers all trying to help and as im teaching and some find that they can start taking over my class. And ive had to say something about it.



Make them do push-ups, and if they continue to do it, kick them out of your class.  That's a huge, huge problem.


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## WaterGal

Andrew Green said:


> You might not be ready to take on a school, but there are things you can take on.  Would you be up for taking on some marketing & sales?  Maybe make the classes grow a little.
> 
> One other thought, Fire up a instructor training plan.  Get some resources together and have a course, if the teenagers want to help out they got to go through the course first.  Having them on the floor when they haven't been trained on how to be useful on the floor is no good.  Make it very clear what they are and are not allowed to do at each stage of their training in the instructor training program.



This is a good idea, yeah.  We've been thinking lately about developing a leadership or instructor assistant program like this for teenagers, since it would really help sometimes to have more help during some of the more popular class times.


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## Andrew Green

shoto_tiger_girl said:


> Yes i would definately like any info you have  that would be super great



I'll put together a bit of a outline of what we do when I get a few minutes


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## PhotonGuy

I was going to leave a reply to the OP but now that I see this thread is 8 years old I see no point in replying to the original message. I didn't realize that when I first posted a reply and so for that reason Im editing it.


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## Michael Loughrie12343

Not to be rude, but sometimes it's okay to punish them for push ups or sit ups. Sorry, but something has to be done.


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## wingchun100

It doesn't take many kids acting out to destroy the morale of a class. I remember attending a kids' class at my old judo club. The teacher had them pair off to try a throw. Well, one kid decided to slap another right in the face. (These were all elementary school-age kids.) One of the senior instructors addressed it with the child, but when the parent showed up to get him, not a word was said to them. That just blew my mind that they let the parent leave without telling them what their kid had done.


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## Tez3

Michael Loughrie12343 said:


> , but sometimes i*t's okay to punish them for push ups or sit ups*.



I'm wondering why you would punish them for doing push up or sit ups?



wingchun100 said:


> It doesn't take many kids acting out to destroy the morale of a class. I remember attending a kids' class at my old judo club. The teacher had them pair off to try a throw. Well, one kid decided to slap another right in the face. (These were all elementary school-age kids.) One of the senior instructors addressed it with the child, but when the parent showed up to get him, not a word was said to them. That just blew my mind that they let the parent leave without telling them what their kid had done.




If it's dealt with in class there isn't really a need to mention it to parents. The child does something wrong, is reprimanded/punished, why bring down more punishment when it's been sorted? If the child doesn't learn and carries on despite reprimands and warnings then you tell parents, if you do it every single time the child misbehaves you have no way to escalate the punishment because 'I will tell your parents' doesn't work.


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