# self defence for a friend



## Tony (Jul 26, 2005)

I have been training in my current kung fu style for 6 years and have recently got my brown sash so I am at teaching level now. I have a friend of mine who was involved in an incident with his mother and her boyfriend. Her boyfriend doesn't seem like a very nice person and attacked my friend so he called the police. This all happened over some minor incident with his mother and her boyfriend jumped to the wrong conclusion and i guess saw this as an excuse to attack him.

I think it might be a good idea if I just helped him out with some basic self defence techniques and even teach him how to strike. He doesn't even know how to make a proper fist. He is not a violent person so if he were attacked he would be easy pickings. I have offered to train with him over the weekend and in turn through teaching him I would improve my skills too.

What are your thoughts on this and how would you go about teaching a friend. I have a few ideas on some kind of training programme but woudl welcome your thoughts and ideas.


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## searcher (Jul 26, 2005)

You are asking for trouble geting involved with domestics.   If you teach him and he uses this, you are going to be held partly responsible.    If your friend needs to be able to defend himself then he needs to sign up for a SD class.   Don't take this on for anything.   Tell him to keep the police informed and if possible move out.


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## shesulsa (Jul 26, 2005)

I think you might consider bringing this up to your instructor, given the legalities that could arise as searcher pointed out.  The absolute best thing to do right now is to make sure you find out where he can stay if he needs to - such as a half-way house or something, or friends - get him your phone number where he can reach you, and encourage him to report incidents when he's ready to be out of the house in a flash.

 > Do not - I repeat - DO NOT attempt to fight his battles for him.  

 > Do seriously consider the ramifications before teaching him anything or taking him into your house. 

 >Do not take this lightly.  

 > Do always remember there is always more than one side to every story.


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## MJS (Jul 26, 2005)

Tony said:
			
		

> I have been training in my current kung fu style for 6 years and have recently got my brown sash so I am at teaching level now. I have a friend of mine who was involved in an incident with his mother and her boyfriend. Her boyfriend doesn't seem like a very nice person and attacked my friend so he called the police. This all happened over some minor incident with his mother and her boyfriend jumped to the wrong conclusion and i guess saw this as an excuse to attack him.
> 
> I think it might be a good idea if I just helped him out with some basic self defence techniques and even teach him how to strike. He doesn't even know how to make a proper fist. He is not a violent person so if he were attacked he would be easy pickings. I have offered to train with him over the weekend and in turn through teaching him I would improve my skills too.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this and how would you go about teaching a friend. I have a few ideas on some kind of training programme but woudl welcome your thoughts and ideas.



While I understand the concern for your friend, I agree with the others on this matter.  IMHO, I think that rather than getting involved, you should seek out the advice of someone, such as your instructor, the police, etc., who can offer you some professional advice.  Having him fight with his mothers boyfriend, is not going to help matters, but instead make them worse.  Chances are they'll both end up getting arrested.

Mike


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## shesulsa (Jul 26, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Having him fight with his mothers boyfriend, is not going to help matters, but instead make them worse. Chances are they'll both end up getting arrested.


 ... or worse.


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## Flatlander (Jul 26, 2005)

Tony, I have to echo Shesulsa's sentiment here. You need to tread lightly here. If your buddy wants training, let him seek it out. As you know, a student will only absorb teaching if they truly want the teaching. Furthermore, you are proposing to engage yourself in a potential conflict of interest. Let your friend remain your friend - be supportive as best you can. Be an ear and a shoulder. 

I also have to say here that if you, Tony, came to me with the problem that your friend has come to you with, I would be encouraging you to remove yourself from the situation and the hostile environment, not trying to help you prepare for the next incident. Know what I'm saying?  :asian:


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## MA-Caver (Jul 26, 2005)

I too echo the sentiments of the others that it's a sticky to get involved in another's domestic affairs. 
You are an honorable friend that you desire to help him learn how to protect himself (and likely his mother) from an abusive situation.  Yet the sticky is that if he doesn't do what you teach him properly then he'll either get hurt worse or he will hurt the BF worse than he intended. You know as well as the rest of us that (any) MA takes disicpline. Which takes a long time to develop and continual practice. 
Check into it... maybe your hands will be tied and you can do nothing. But you can still be there as a friend to help him when it blows over.  It's one of the things that makes life suck but one of the things that we sometimes have to accept and find *other* ways to help.


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## Drac (Jul 27, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> You are asking for trouble geting involved with domestics. Tell him to keep the police informed and if possible move out.


Amen to that post brother..Avoid all involvement in domestic matters at all costs. You will wind up on the losing end..


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## arnisador (Jul 27, 2005)

Yes, get involved, but do it by helping him find the right resources, including the police, social services, school counselors if applicable, finding his own apt. if applicable, etc. Helping him find a competent self-defense instructor is great, but it could be awkward if you were the instructor.


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## kenpochad (Jul 27, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, get involved, but do it by helping him find the right resources, including the police, social services, school counselors if applicable, finding his own apt. if applicable, etc. Helping him find a competent self-defense instructor is great, but it could be awkward if you were the instructor.


I agree you cant just sit there and not help a friend


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## still learning (Jul 27, 2005)

Hello, Lot's of good advice! One more to think about? There are good books on verbal communications, such as Verbal Judo, Tongue Fu, and so on. Plus I recommend reading any of "mac the animal books. 

  One will learn it is best to avoid any confrontations and best to descalate the situtions.

  His mom and boyfriend  has not grown up yet and knows only one way to deal with people.   

  Your friend needs to get away from the abuse and best to seek professonal help, 

  Fighting back will only make things worst......is that how wars get started?.........Aloha


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## Sapper6 (Jul 27, 2005)

i'd say help your friend in whatever manner you feel is best.  don't go off what we say.  we're not in the situation and we all know it's easy to call the shots from the sidelines.  in saying this, i certainly don't mean you should teach him throat shots and bone breakers.  just help him.  call the cops for him.  that doesn't mean it would necessarily work.  if you were in his shoes, you would want the help, right?

to those of you who caution "tread lightly":  why the need to be SO cautious and protective?  as instructors in the martial arts, is there room for this kind of attitude toward the situation at hand?  is this what you do with your OWN students?  i wouldn't think so. :idunno: 

even the simplest of technique could possibly save the guy's life someday, should it come to that...i wouldn't want to be apart of NOT helping him. :asian:


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## MJS (Jul 28, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i'd say help your friend in whatever manner you feel is best.  don't go off what we say.  we're not in the situation and we all know it's easy to call the shots from the sidelines.  in saying this, i certainly don't mean you should teach him throat shots and bone breakers.  just help him.  call the cops for him.  that doesn't mean it would necessarily work.  if you were in his shoes, you would want the help, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## arnisador (Jul 28, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Why does helping him have to involve something physical?


 There's the martial arts tunnel vision at work, yes. It's important to think in terms of _self-defense_ here, not fighting as such.



> Whats to say that what he is taught is going to work?


 Yes, another risk. Too little knowledge can be dangerous.

 If I was going to teach someone to defend themselves in an actual encounter, I'd want 6 months. You could teach some adequate boxing in half that time, but in a house a kitchen knife could easily come into play. In 6 months a person might learn enough to know what to do and have a chance, though I've been at it since 1979 and wouldn't want to face an untrained person with a knife.


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## Tony (Jul 28, 2005)

Thanks for all your advice and I know I am not a qualified instructor but I do have 6 years of training under my belt (no pun intended !). I certainly wouldn't want him to inflict too much pain or end up killing someone. BUt I feel he is one of life's victims and I don't think he would consider joining a Martial Arts class as he would find that intimidating and he really isn't a sporty person at all. In fact he disliked most sports at school and his coordination isn't so good.

Atleast I could maybe help him feel better about himself by helping him to get fit. Now that i am at teaching level I think I would enjoy teaching people but only small groups of no more than 4/5.  If I do teach him it may also help improve my skills too as i have some pads I want to work on and no one to hold them. I think that this kind of training or anything similar woudl help take his mind off his problems.

I do recall even before I starting formal training i had some minimal training and I used to teach this kid what I knew and I think he did misuse it, probably because of his age and wanting to intimidate would be bullies.


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## proud beginner (Sep 1, 2005)

Tony said:
			
		

> He doesn't even know how to make a proper fist. He is not a violent person so if he were attacked he would be easy pickings. I have offered to train with him over the weekend and in turn through teaching him I would improve my skills too.



Apart from the legal issues adressed by other posters, never try to teach him to make "a proper fist" !

This is the most stupid thing to learn if you wanna survive (not show your ego strength).

- Potential witnesses will register agressivity and help the opponent in a trial ;
- Your opponent will mimic your fist, make on more step to physical fight, what is to be avoided at all costs, even by wounding or killing the opponent ;
- If not trained to clench just before the impact, you'll loose 30% velocity, what means about 50% kinetic power (and much more time for the opponent to react) ;
- Your friend is likely to seriously damage his hand on a head bone (I guess he's not wearing sparring gloves...) ;
- The move of a fist is, most of the time, easy to see and anticipate ;
- The clenching of the fist prevents from attacking real targets (eyes, throat).

Looking like a "non alpha", your friend may enjoy surprise effect on a bully. Train him to attack real targets with fingers from outside the sights of the opponent. The most difficult is to finish this kind of moves, but defending one's mother may be a strong motivation.

One shot, one kill.

This will help him to restraint, feeling the craziness of any *real* fight and, may be, to defuse the situation.


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## Loki (Sep 2, 2005)

proud beginner said:
			
		

> Apart from the legal issues adressed by other posters, never try to teach him to make "a proper fist" !
> 
> This is the most stupid thing to learn if you wanna survive (not show your ego strength).
> 
> ...


 Are you advocating not using a fist at all? I can understand the logic behind palm strikes, and using fingers to attack weak-spots like eyes, but a proper fist is essential for unarmed combat

 "One shot, one kill" is a sniper motto, totally unfit for street fighting. In a fight you have to hit several times and be certain your attacker is down for the count. 

  And your second point makes no sense: wound or kill your opponent to avoid a fight?! Maybe I misunderstood you...

 Addressing the main issue, it's been said before: don't fight other people fights for them. I made that mistake more than once, albeit on less serious issues, but the principle still applies. Check legalities and encourage your friend to start a SD class, even offer to go with him once or twice. My two bits.


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## proud beginner (Sep 2, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Are you advocating not using a fist at all? I can understand the logic behind palm strikes, and using fingers to attack weak-spots like eyes, but a proper fist is essential for unarmed combat
> 
> "One shot, one kill" is a sniper motto, totally unfit for street fighting. In a fight you have to hit several times and be certain your attacker is down for the count.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your answer and questions. I'll try to adress your points.

First of all, I do agree with you : using law anytime it's possible. My point was about when it is not.

Yes, I say and never insist enought that using fist when you are not an expert both in law and in hand fighting is the worse error one can do. I made a long list in my post about that, do you disagree with some of its content ?

Yes, one shot, one kill is the onliest way for normal people to have chance to get rid of a bully, when all psychological ways hadn't work. I do agree with you : with fists (if you're not Tyson or something), it's impossible. Poke an eye, crush a throat : Enditem.

It's why I say that normal people (and the guy the first poster intended to train is part of this class) must wire their mind on avoiding any fight, even by killing. If normal people fight with a bully, they loose, don't they ? 

BTW, there's lots of limits to your "don't fight someone else fight". Would you look at a friend (or GF) being assaulted whitout trying to help ? I can't imagine that. And what about a rape attempt or something like that ?


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## tradrockrat (Sep 2, 2005)

Well, I'll weigh in on this one.  I'm somewhere in the middle of the argument here.  Let answer your question by replying with what I would and have done.

Is this friend a TRUE friend?  By that, I mean do you consider him family?  If so, I would feel obligated to help him.  I would of course approach from a standpoint that he should remove himself from the situation, but we all know this isn't always possible.  We're not in grade school here.  If he can, he should - otherwise it's time to get serious.  

I don't know the whole situation and most likely you don't either.  I WOULD FIND OUT!  

I would do everything I can to solve the problem without violence!  In the meantime, I would teach your friend the nastiest, dirtiest, most brutal tactics I know and let him know what he's getting himself into if he uses it.  A little knowledge can be dangerous AND FALSLEY EMPOWERING!  Don't let your friend start thinking he's the next Bruce Lee.  He may very well go looking for the fight.  Serious tactics call for serious consideration of when to use them.  Brutality has it's own power to sober up the neophyte.
If all else fails, get involved for your friends safety.  I know what I'd do, but that may not be right for you. I'd ask myself, "If you leave a brother behind, what kind of person are you?"  I've stood behind a "brother" when the chips were down, and it's a scary thing, but it's the right thing IMHO.

As for those that say you may be responsible, I say yes you are - to your friend and to your selfrespect.  Do the right thing because it's the right thing to do and be damned the consequences.  

One of my favorite quotes of all time is:

"It is better to live one day as a Lion, than a life time as a sheep."


BTW - Don't forget to try to solve it without violence!  Chances are you can, and that makes you a REAL warrior (again IMHO).


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## Loki (Sep 2, 2005)

proud beginner said:
			
		

> Yes, I say and never insist enought that using fist when you are not an expert both in law and in hand fighting is the worse error one can do. I made a long list in my post about that, do you disagree with some of its content?


 One by one:



> - Potential witnesses will register agressivity and help the opponent in a trial ;


 Clenching a fist doesn't make someone a violent person. And physical self-defense is usually an aggressive act. A lawyer using that as evidence in an attempt to discredit someone is an idiot.



> - Your opponent will mimic your fist, make on more step to physical fight, what is to be avoided at all costs, even by wounding or killing the opponent ;


 Then you make the fist at the last moment before impact. This was your next point, I believe.



> - If not trained to clench just before the impact, you'll loose 30% velocity, what means about 50% kinetic power (and much more time for the opponent to react) ;


 I don't know if that's true or not, but that doesn't discredit the concept of the fist, it just means you should clench it just before impact.



> - Your friend is likely to seriously damage his hand on a head bone (I guess he's not wearing sparring gloves...) ;


 The best way to avoid that is to learn and practice how to make a proper fist. And I don't know about 'likely'. There have been debates about it on this forum which are probably worth checking out.



> - The move of a fist is, most of the time, easy to see and anticipate ;


 Not any easier to notice than any other arm movement.



> - The clenching of the fist prevents from attacking real targets (eyes, throat).


 The nose, side of the head, ribs are just as real of targets. An attempt to finger jab someone's eye is much riskier than a punch, as it's a smaller target and therefore less likely to hit, and a finger improperly impacting a hard surface can break very easily.



> Yes, one shot, one kill is the onliest way for normal people to have chance to get rid of a bully, when all psychological ways hadn't work. I do agree with you : with fists (if you're not Tyson or something), it's impossible. Poke an eye, crush a throat : Enditem.


 One shot one kill is the only way to guarantee getting killed yourself. Your odds of taking an attacker down are astronomically small. Assuming otherwise is either a testament to extraordinary skill or extraordinary arrogance.

 I wasn't agreeing with you. Tyson didn't become Tyson by giving up on fists off the bat. He practiced a lot and turned them into formidable weapons, what every martial artist should aspire to do.



> It's why I say that normal people (and the guy the first poster intended to train is part of this class) must wire their mind on avoiding any fight, even by killing. If normal people fight with a bully, they loose, don't they ?


 What you're saying is contradictory and absurd. You should kill a person rather than fight him? How is fighting someone worse than killing him? And how do you kill someone who has the bravado to physically threaten you without a fight?



> BTW, there's lots of limits to your "don't fight someone else fight". Would you look at a friend (or GF) being assaulted whitout trying to help ? I can't imagine that. And what about a rape attempt or something like that ?


 The saying has exceptions, and is usually not taken literally. Of course you should beat the living hell out of the person who's trying to rape your girlfriend. The saying applies to interpersonal conflicts, not physical confrontations, like don't get in between your girlfriend and her boss if they're at odds. Advise her, but don't fight on her behalf.


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## proud beginner (Sep 2, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> One by one:
> 
> 
> A - Clenching a fist doesn't make someone a violent person. And physical self-defense is usually an aggressive act. A lawyer using that as evidence in an attempt to discredit someone is an idiot.
> ...



Thanks for asking.

A - Not lawyer, witnesses, will register you as violent, without being conscient of why they do. Then, they will percieve each of your behaviours thru this filter. Then they will remember anything favouring their hypothesis and scotomise what is running against it. Then they will tell just that to the court, feelling perfectly honest and unbiased.

B - Nope. This needs a long training and no stress during the confrontation. 

C - False. You can't use a fist from outside the vision of the target.

D - Sorry, but ********. Try to stop a resolved bully weighting 60 pds more than you with that... And if it is cold or raining, try to hit a rib thru a coat... 

E - Perfectly true. I never spoke about jabbing.

F - How many life threatening encounters with obvious balance of forces against you did you survive ? Let alone having the bad guy(s) caught and jailed... And I've *very poor* skills. At least from any artistic PoV, save, may be some poetry, and massages...  

G - Yes. So, it doesn't apply to "non-artists". Besides, Tyson has nothing to do with a "formidable weapon". He's better than you and me (even together) on ring. Nobody uses weapons on a ring. And I'm not stupid enought to fight Tyson (or even you) on a ring, are you ?

H - I told you that I don't fight.   

I - If you snipe at a target from one mile with a .50, do you fight with it, or do you destroy it ? Stop arguing and start contemplating...   

J - Sorry for the misunderstanding. I do agree, let's charge my lack of English sayings skills (among so much other lacks of skills...).


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## Loki (Sep 2, 2005)

proud beginner said:
			
		

> Thanks for asking.
> 
> A - Not lawyer, witnesses, will register you as violent, without being conscient of why they do. Then, they will percieve each of your behaviours thru this filter. Then they will remember anything favouring their hypothesis and scotomise what is running against it. Then they will tell just that to the court, feelling perfectly honest and unbiased.
> 
> ...


 I think I will stop arguing and let your posts speak for themselves.


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## proud beginner (Sep 2, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> I think I will stop arguing and let your posts speak for themselves.



You're getting wiser.

It may be a first step to survival


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## Loki (Sep 2, 2005)

proud beginner said:
			
		

> You're getting wiser.
> 
> It may be a first step to survival


 Only if you consider suicide a form of survival.


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## proud beginner (Sep 2, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Only if you consider suicide a form of survival.



You're soooooo cute !   :*


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## Loki (Sep 2, 2005)

proud beginner said:
			
		

> You're soooooo cute !   :*


 I'd probably get warned by a moderator if I said what I think of you...


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## proud beginner (Sep 2, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> I'd probably get warned by a moderator if I said what I think of you...



So, I may have some skills both with law and with cute growing boys...

Well, don't hate me, it will not hurt me and it will give you a bad time. I just tried to give you some information... I think you'll understand it later...

Besides, even this post may hide an information... or not...


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## Cryozombie (Sep 3, 2005)

Moderator note:

  I dont like the direction this is going.

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile).

  Thank you.

  -Technopunk
  MT Super Moderator


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## Adept (Sep 4, 2005)

proud beginner said:
			
		

> Apart from the legal issues adressed by other posters, never try to teach him to make "a proper fist" !
> 
> This is the most stupid thing to learn if you wanna survive (not show your ego strength).


 I disagree.



> - Potential witnesses will register agressivity and help the opponent in a trial ;


 This is a strawman point. Witnesses will remember what people said, who looked like they were going to hit who, etc. They won't _only_ remember that person A had formed a fist, and then conclude that person A was using unreasonable and disproportionate force. They will remember things like 'Person A was shouting, acting aggresively, and threatening person B'.



> - Your opponent will mimic your fist, make on more step to physical fight, what is to be avoided at all costs, even by wounding or killing the opponent ;


 You need to define 'fight' for me here, and put it into context for likely encounters



> - If not trained to clench just before the impact, you'll loose 30% velocity, what means about 50% kinetic power (and much more time for the opponent to react)


 How does this make sense? A clenched fist is certainly not 30% slower than an unclenched one.



> - Your friend is likely to seriously damage his hand on a head bone (I guess he's not wearing sparring gloves...) ;


 A properly formed fist, directed to an appropriate target (Jaw, solar plexus, nose, etc) will not _usually_ break.



> - The move of a fist is, most of the time, easy to see and anticipate ;


 No more so than other techniques.



> - The clenching of the fist prevents from attacking real targets (eyes, throat).


 It certainly does. But attacking those targets deliberately opens up a whole other area of 'reasonable and proportionate' questions. If you _could_ just punch him on the nose, how can you defend your decision to jam your fingers into his eye sockets?

 You make some good points, and certainly the closed fist is not always the best option, but I feel you sell it far too short.


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## proud beginner (Sep 4, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> 1 - I disagree.
> 
> A - This is a strawman point. Witnesses will remember what people said, who looked like they were going to hit who, etc. They won't _only_ remember that person A had formed a fist, and then conclude that person A was using unreasonable and disproportionate force. They will remember things like 'Person A was shouting, acting aggresively, and threatening person B'.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your answer, Adept.

1 - Nice, it's the way people may teach each other and learn form each other.

A - I DO agree that people will not say "He clenched his fists" not even clearely remember it if asked about. My point that what people remember is filtered by their implicit theories and what supports these ones is remembered far better than what oppose them. A clenched fist man looks like much more agressive as a whole than an open handed one, whatever one or the other is really the more agressive. Just look at yourself in a mirror to verify. To make a comparison, if a man with a tie and a suit actually assaulted an other wearing a nailed leather suit and DocMartens boots, the witnesses will not remember the same thing than in the reverse case. Memory is, to make it quick, a kind of *imagination*, and what you believe is strongly influencing what you may access in your memory and how you recontruct and explain it. If you have opened hands, smile and breath slowly (and a few more items) and your opponent is clenching fists, showing a scaring face and breathes frantic, people will "see" that *you* are assaulted, even if they don't remember the former details. For more, I think that with "first impression biais" and "theory confirmation bias", Google may help you.

B - Yep ! I'm guilty here, to use a translation of the French word I use with my students and fellows after a discussion, while not defining it. Besides, it's a pedagogic shortening of something much more complex. 

In a few words. If people enter a situation where each other try to hurt the other one by physical ways, while not being hurt by the same ways, in order to force the other one to do or not to do something, this is a fight. The stronger and the best trained will win. Since I speaking about survival, the stronger and the best trained is, in 99% of the cases, the bad guy who assaults a normal one. I bet that no junky is going to try to take on *your* wallet and that, if you work at a desk, nobody is going to try to take *you* from behind it to spit in your face and beat you on the ground. Because they are not crazy. People I train, and the guy whose training is at the begining of the thread may experience that. Then, if they fight, they loose.

Fighting is a game among people of close strength and skills (look at the weight categories in most of the martial arts, in a bad encounter, the weight is *always* against the victim). With a big difference in strength and skills, there's no more fight, there's a predator and a prey. Survival is learning to avoid fight and to learn how to be the predator.

C - Yes, it is. I'm sorry not to have link about that, but it has been mesured with radar. Of course, a much trained individual, like you seems to be, after Ks of hours of training, may overcome the biomecanical contraction of the opposing muscles induced by the clenching. But I'm speaking about untrained people.

D - Jaw, yes. But a jaw will be more seriously harmed by a palm attack, what doesn't put the hand at risk if the target moves and you hit a head bone. 

Nose ? Mine has been broken a lot of times. That never stopped me. What about a crack full junky ? 

Plexus ? Althought I must admitt that fist is the good hand form here, you have to notice that *you* may, may be, deny me breathing for a while with that *but* that if *I* hit your plexus with *my* fist, you're going to have a good laught before quicking my ***.

E - It's easier and more efficient to attack with palm or fingers from outside the vision of the opponent, than to do that with a fist. Besides, I'm sure that you can dodge about any fist directed to your face, even if surprised. Ask you GF to slap you in the face, from time to time, with surprise. Then, look at the stats.

F - I DOOOOOOO agree. In survival, hitting the target is the last thing to do. It's like using a weapon. Besides, you certainly will have no second chance if you miss. Knowing that, you'll have to do anything possible to avoid fight, poking an eye -- for example -- being the very last option before being beaten. If you need it, it's that you made a mistake before, but everybody may make a mistake. Then, call the emergency to help your opponent (if you don't need to flee away because he's still moving too much) and fill a complaint for assault. Then "I don't remember anything, I was in such a panic ! I felt I was going to die, I don't even know how I hurt the guy... " and so on, with the support of witnesses, see point A.

Of course, if you can stop somebody without harming him, don't charge your karma with overkilling, but, one more time, I'm speaking of a real bad encounter, what your training and appearance may shelter you from. If a kid tries to take on my wallet (and if I see it  ), I will certainly not harm him ! Most of the situations, for a trained man like you, is like with a kid for normal people.

G - I hope having done some improvement


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## Adept (Sep 4, 2005)

proud beginner said:
			
		

> Memory is, to make it quick, a kind of *imagination*, and what you believe is strongly influencing what you may access in your memory and how you recontruct and explain it. If you have opened hands, smile and breath slowly (and a few more items) and your opponent is clenching fists, showing a scaring face and breathes frantic, people will "see" that *you* are assaulted, even if they don't remember the former details.


 Sure, but in terms of what people remember as being aggressive behaviour, I'd say it runs like this:

 Stance
 Language
 Facial expressions
 Motions (pointing, shaking of fist in threatening manner)
 Clenched fist or open hand

 Because of that, and because the fist _can_ be a useful self defense tool, I wouldn't use witnesses perceptions of the event as a reason not to use a closed fist.



> C - Yes, it is. I'm sorry not to have link about that, but it has been mesured with radar. Of course, a much trained individual, like you seems to be, after Ks of hours of training, may overcome the biomecanical contraction of the opposing muscles induced by the clenching. But I'm speaking about untrained people.


 I'd be extremely dubious about any results. Basic biomechanics indicates that the muscles of the forearm _cannot_ contribute more than 30% of the speed of a punch. Thus, no matter how tense they are, they cannot slow the speed of a punch by 30%.



> D - Jaw, yes. But a jaw will be more seriously harmed by a palm attack, what doesn't put the hand at risk if the target moves and you hit a head bone.
> 
> Nose ? Mine has been broken a lot of times. That never stopped me. What about a crack full junky ?
> 
> Plexus ? Althought I must admitt that fist is the good hand form here, you have to notice that *you* may, may be, deny me breathing for a while with that *but* that if *I* hit your plexus with *my* fist, you're going to have a good laught before quicking my ***.


 In my experience, a jaw is just as likely to be damaged by a fist as an open hand. A broken nose, if people are un-used to it (and most people are) is painful enough to pull them up. Added to that, it makes the eyes tear up.

 And a properly delivered punch to the solar plexus should break it.



> E - It's easier and more efficient to attack with palm or fingers from outside the vision of the opponent, than to do that with a fist. Besides, I'm sure that you can dodge about any fist directed to your face, even if surprised. Ask you GF to slap you in the face, from time to time, with surprise. Then, look at the stats.


 Okay, I see where you are coming from now. Fair point.



> F - I DOOOOOOO agree. In survival, hitting the target is the last thing to do. It's like using a weapon. Besides, you certainly will have no second chance if you miss. Knowing that, you'll have to do anything possible to avoid fight, poking an eye -- for example -- being the very last option before being beaten. If you need it, it's that you made a mistake before, but everybody may make a mistake. Then, call the emergency to help your opponent (if you don't need to flee away because he's still moving too much) and fill a complaint for assault. Then "I don't remember anything, I was in such a panic ! I felt I was going to die, I don't even know how I hurt the guy... " and so on, with the support of witnesses, see point A.


 Agreed.


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## proud beginner (Sep 4, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> A - Sure, but in terms of what people remember as being aggressive behaviour, I'd say it runs like this:
> 
> Stance
> Language
> ...



Thanks for your detailed answer.

A - Sincerly, I don't know. Even if it's certainly not a scientific protocol, I suggest that you try with yourself : take different stances and facial expressions, look at yourself in a mirror, then open and clench your fists. You may try the same thing facing friends, and ask them to do it facing you. Then ask about your and their feelings of the percieved agressiveness...

B - Clenching the fist in a stressfull situation leads to a contraction of the whole limb. This reflex contraction slows the move.

C - If it has the same effect (same thing about the nose), why to take a risk of being hand wounded on a head bone ? Besides, the palm is wider and more precise. Ever tried to slap a mosquito with a fist ?

About the plexus (palm or fingers obviously doesn't work here, save in some funky movies), I think that you speak about breaking the extremity of the sternum, not the plexus itself. This needs extreme precision, hitting a very small area with a "kento" or a "devil" fist... I think that even you shouldn't rely on that, if the opponent is moving / wears somewhat heavy clothes. But my point was about "normal" people, who are unable to achieve any harm doing that. When training people relying on that out of movies addiction -- one more time, I'm not speaking about black belts -- I just offer me as a target and they experience how vain it may be.

Of course, I will not try with you nor with a 250 lbs bodybuilder... Just "normal" people.

D - Thanks for the point  ... while I still wonder where I come from, where I go to and who I am   

Besides :
- Clenching is mimetic, opening your hands may decrease the tension and avoid any wound ;
- Your opponent will not anticipate an attack from a smiling and open handed victim, what multiplicates the chances of hitting him ;
- Clenching *could* be related to stress apnea, what is the worst ennemy in a bad encounter (While I'm not sure of that, at time).

CU soon


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 4, 2005)

If you are to train him, (and I would suggest not, it may be better to refer him to another school etc) then you must while you are training him, detach yourself from your friendship i.e. leave the friendship outside the door when training begins and dont pick it up until training ends. The reason I believe you must do this that if you are to train him effectivly and raise his abilities to deal with violent situations, you need to be able to push him, and draw that agressivenes out of him (note I didn't say violence, there is a difference) and for that you need to put on your teachers hat, there are no friends inside the training hall neither are their enemies there is simply training.


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## Gin-Gin (Sep 4, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> While I understand the concern for your friend, I agree with the others on this matter.  IMHO, I think that rather than getting involved, you should seek out the advice of someone, such as your instructor, the police, etc., who can offer you some professional advice.  Having him fight with his mothers boyfriend, is not going to help matters, but instead make them worse.  Chances are they'll both end up getting arrested.-Mike


Ditto!  :ultracool


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