# Bruce Juchnik



## Kempojujutsu (Jul 23, 2002)

I was reviewing a tape one of the martialtalk members traded me early this year. The tape in question is Bruce Juchnik who teaches Kosho Ryu Kempo. In the tape, he talks about how Mitose taught him the Pinan kata's and Naihanchi Kata's. The question here is why did Ed Paker decide  not to teach them. Or if he did at one point why did he take them out. The techniques he shows doesn't not impress me at all. But that is my opinon.
Bob:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _*
> I was reviewing a tape one of the martialtalk members traded me early this year. The tape in question is Bruce Juchnik who teaches Kosho Ryu Kempo. In the tape, he talks about how Mitose taught him the Pinan kata's and Naihanchi Kata's.
> *



He said he taught them to Juchnik not Parker.

*



			The question here is why did Ed Paker decide  not to teach them.
		
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*
Who said Mitose taught Ed Parker anything........... "HE DIDN 'T"!!!


*



			Or if he did at one point why did he take them out.
		
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*
He never had them In!


*



			The techniques he shows doesn't not impress me at all.
		
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*
Now you know why Ed Parker never learned anything from him either!   sheesh

:asian:


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## jazkiljok (Jul 24, 2002)

*I was reviewing a tape one of the martialtalk members traded me early this year. The tape in question is Bruce Juchnik who teaches Kosho Ryu Kempo. In the tape, he talks about how Mitose taught him the Pinan kata's and Naihanchi Kata's.  *[/QUOTE]

I've read much about Juchnik's claims. Mitose was in prison when they met. Juchnik says a student of his was a prison guard in San Quentin and  set up the meeting. there was no physical training allowed by prison rules. i suppose they probably sat at a table with a window between them for a short period of time for each visit.  Juchnik claims some sort of  training by parable and allegory. (forgive me for saying, but that's some strong snake oil some one is selling.)

Pinan and Naihanci Kata? say wouldn't that be good ol' KARATE? hmmmm...

by all accounts from men who were students/friends of Ed Parker, he held Mitose in very low esteem well before Mitose was locked away for his part in the murders of an elderly japanese couple.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> By all accounts from men who were students/friends of Ed Parker, he held Mitose in very low esteem well before Mitose was locked away for his part in the murders of an elderly japanese couple. [/B]



That would be a "correct".

:asian:


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## alan libby (Jul 24, 2002)

hello 
     do we know that grandmaster had part in the murder
 or did we just read it - the real person to ask would be hanchi juchnick { sp } but at any rate hanchi is a real down to earth person as i did meet him at the kenpo\kempo tourney it was a good meeting
 bless u all


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2002)

We know all about it.

:asian:


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## alan libby (Jul 24, 2002)

hello 

 thank u for the we know all that - 
   the thing is did u hear it when it was told to u - or did u have the know it all attitude - because of folk not taking the time to understand what really was the message. 
                         thank you


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by alan libby _
> 
> *hello
> 
> ...



I believe the Tracy's have the transcripts of the trial on their website somewhere or the ability to download it from there but I'm not sure.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## jazkiljok (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by alan libby _
> 
> *hello
> do we know that grandmaster had part in the murder
> ...



this was a well documented and locally reported case in its time.

the tracy's karate folks have gone to great length's to sell the trial's transcripts... 

http://www.tracyskarate.com/mitose-trans/official_trial-mstpage.htm

and yes, it's true- i wasn't on the moon when the lunar module landed...:asian:


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 24, 2002)

I could go to the tracy site, but I am tried and little lazy right now. But didn't the tracy say they had like 100 boxes containing all of the mitose transcrip.
Bob


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by alan libby _*
> The thing is did u hear it when it was told to u - or did u have the know it all attitude - because of folk not taking the time to understand what really was the message.
> *



I have known Mitose's story sincebefore he was convicted.  I have all the magazine articles, rap sheets and transcripts that Mr. Parker sent me for my personal evaulation.  I also know of the guards at the prison and what went on there.

Too bad some people make bad choices.

:asian:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 25, 2002)

To quote the Great Golden Dragon, who is quoting the Great E K Parker ...   Time will either promote you or expose you!

Dan


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## KenpoDave (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by alan libby _
> 
> *hello
> do we know that grandmaster had part in the murder
> ...



The real person to ask would be Nimr Hassan.  He is the man that actually committed the murder.  BTW, it was a single murder.  He left Mrs. Namamatsu for dead, but she testified against him.  He then implicated Mitose in exchange for a lighter sentence, changed his name, and is now teaching Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo in Philadelphia.

Dave


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 25, 2002)

Thanks, Dave.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDave _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




There were also many more criminal allegations made, before
the whole murder trial came to be.  There was extortion, and
rape, to name 2.


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## Klondike93 (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDave _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



That's the legal system for ya, this guy does the killing and gets out of jail. They should have thrown away the key on this turd  .


:asian:


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## Doc (Jul 27, 2002)

Let's keep this simple.

1. Mitose was a big time con man & criminal whose activities finally caught up with him.

2.  Mitose is not a part of the Parker Lineage and Parker never learned anything from him.

3. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

and true!

:asian:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *and true!
> 
> :asian: *



Indeed!


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## kelly keltner (Jul 8, 2004)

jazkiljok said:
			
		

> *I was reviewing a tape one of the martialtalk members traded me early this year. The tape in question is Bruce Juchnik who teaches Kosho Ryu Kempo. In the tape, he talks about how Mitose taught him the Pinan kata's and Naihanchi Kata's. *


I've read much about Juchnik's claims. Mitose was in prison when they met. Juchnik says a student of his was a prison guard in San Quentin and set up the meeting. there was no physical training allowed by prison rules. i suppose they probably sat at a table with a window between them for a short period of time for each visit. Juchnik claims some sort of training by parable and allegory. (forgive me for saying, but that's some strong snake oil some one is selling.)

Pinan and Naihanci Kata? say wouldn't that be good ol' KARATE? hmmmm...

by all accounts from men who were students/friends of Ed Parker, he held Mitose in very low esteem well before Mitose was locked away for his part in the murders of an elderly japanese couple.[/QUOTE] 
You should talk to other people who also visited Mitose at folsom and find out just exactly what was allowed and what wasn't ask about the courtyard ask about Mitose's standing as a model prisoner. A good place to start would be mr.juchnik then you could move on to Eugene Sedeno or you could speak to Rick Alemany. But don't talk about a physical setting you know nothing about. I'm not saying the story does not have it's difficulties but you should check and talk to those people who were in it before talking. Could it be that Parker did not care for Mitose because it meant being caught in the middle of a lie. 
Parker was around Trias. Trias was in Hawaii in the 40's he knew who was who's teacher who was legit and who wasn't. I understand that in tth 80's Parker tried to somehow or affiliate with the U.S.K.A. Trias told him he would have to come in under kosho which at the time would have meant coming in under Mr. Juchnik. Parker wouldn't have liked that, would he. Parker was a great man but he was a man just the same. He created something great and to be told that he had to come in under someone else may have wounded his pride.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 9, 2004)

I understand why Mr. Parker wouldn't come under Mr. Juchnik, but I don't follow what he was "trying" to do in the eighties. Could you elaborate or redefine the incident?
Sean


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## Bill Lear (Jul 9, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Let's keep this simple.
> 
> 1. Mitose was a big time con man & criminal whose activities finally caught up with him.
> 
> ...



I think you're right on the money.


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## Doc (Jul 11, 2004)

It is well documented that Mitose was a career criminal who delved into extortion, (mostly of the elderly), rape and all manner of cons as he presented himself as a "holy man."

All of this long before he was convicted of murder on the mainland. Ed Parker disliked the man and refused to have anythng to do with him - business or otherwise, and stated so many times publicly.

Now you can debate about his martial arts skill if you like. 

My vote is he sucked big time. Parker was more polite in public stating, "Mitose showed nothing, however Chow was impressive."

As for Bruce juchnick, I had the "honor" to judge him in forms at an Al Reyes tournament on the Big Island "back in the day."

He sucked too! Of course that is only my opinion but it is based on first hand experience having met both Mitose and Juchnik. So much for politically correct today.


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## RCastillo (Jul 11, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I have known Mitose's story sincebefore he was convicted.  I have all the magazine articles, rap sheets and transcripts that Mr. Parker sent me for my personal evaulation.  I also know of the guards at the prison and what went on there.
> 
> Too bad some people make bad choices.
> 
> :asian:



Hey, I saw that hit you threw in on purpose. :whip:


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## RCastillo (Jul 11, 2004)

Sorry?!? Ya'll not sorry it hurt anyones's feelings, so why say it? 

It's not about feelings. It came out in court as fact, and if you saw it first hand, your eyes didn't lie to you. 

Ya,vamonos, new worlds to conquer! :CTF:


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## kelly keltner (Jul 11, 2004)

I would like to know how long ago back in the day was. In reference to the Al Reyes tournament. That would have to be pre 1977 I think. I'll ask Bruce about it he'll be back tonite or tommorow.  I would have to say I strongly and vehemently disagree Bruce Juchnik does not suck. I cannot speak for 24+ years ago but today he is about as crisp and as sharp as it gets, and he knows 200 plus forms not counting repeats. Defining repeat as the same form done by diferent systems with slight or sometimes drastic changes. He can also tell you in many instances who made the changes and why.  

By the way I have never defended Mitose on basis of the crime. Or his criminal background. There are many in the arts that could be picked apart on that basis. He is however an important link in the evolution of martial arts in America. Ed Parker created something great. Emparado helped create something great. Chow created something great. No matter what I think you think anyone thinks will change these facts. You cannot change the fact that Mitose started the ball rolling by hammering him. Just as I cannot defend him for his part in the crime, but what I can do is try to put all the martial arts in perspective and look at the big picture.


KELL


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## GAB (Jul 11, 2004)

Hi, Doc, as far as I am concerned unless you sign your name to your post,
you are just another annon..To bad no good to stand and throw stones unless we know who you are..I can not even imagine Hanshi Bruce sucking at a form or Kata or Quan. I have known the man since 88..
Now as far as testimony goes and the court room procedures you sound about as informed as you do about Hanshi Bruce, o hide in the shadow dude.
I myself made my living with the LAPD and I can tell you what happens in a court of law in this day and age is a shame.. Just for one How about OJ..
There is more than just the transcript to play here and the story is not over, believe me.. Men Like Prof Joe Shuras and many others beside my self are on the path relentlesly.. we will see what comes out at some date and time.
I would love to see your forms Doc..But if you were there, and had the honor you are probably older then I am, and I am pretty much retired except for doing my own thing.. I still stay active and do Kali.. Persons who have been in the art as long as you say, don't generally come on to someone as well regarded in the circles Hanshi keeps as you have.. How many men were Killed in the Palomas area at the time of this creation??
Or after for that matter.. I am not sticking up for the Man Mitose, only for the man Hanshi Bruce..Put up or show some respect Doc!!! Regards, Gary A. Brewer


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## Blindside (Jul 11, 2004)

> Hi, Doc, as far as I am concerned unless you sign your name to your post,you are just another annon..To bad no good to stand and throw stones unless we know who you are..I can not even imagine Hanshi Bruce sucking at a form or Kata or Quan. I have known the man since 88..



On the other hand you could just look at his profile, which has his real name listed and a link to his school and background.  Your profile is quite empty by the way.  Most of the regulars on this board know Doc by his handle so he doesn't have to sign most of his posts.

Lamont


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## GAB (Jul 11, 2004)

Lamont is it, Thanks for the information. I am new to this board and it does show.   But I am who I post to be and stick by what I say. I will check out the profile. Thanks again for direction.. Regards, Gary


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## kelly keltner (Jul 11, 2004)

let me help you out. First the person you are talking about is Gary A. Brewer. Gary is a retired L.A.P.D. he worked foothill division and metro 114 hoorah!!!!
Gary spent his time in the USMC. He also was a student of  John Leoning for a time. He also spent quite a bit of time on the mat with Bob koga. That would be the Bob Koga. The one who is/was responsible for defense training for LAPD and many other police agencies, but that was many years ago. Gary is currently studying more along the lines of Kali up here in Elk Grove Ca. Gary is also an avid history buff, having picked my tiny brain clean of martial facts on many occasion. Trust me once you have been picked clean by gary you need at least 72 hrs to recouperate but it's worth it he has assimilated and processed more M.A. info in the last 12 months than most do in a lifetime. Next question please.

kell


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## Doc (Jul 11, 2004)

> You should talk to other people who also visited Mitose at folsom and find out just exactly what was allowed and what wasn't ask about the courtyard ask about Mitose's standing as a model prisoner.



Somehow his standing as a "model prisoner" doesn't seem very relevant. As for the courtyard, while it is possible a "meeting" could have occurred once or twice against the rules of visitor contact, it would not be possible for this to happen on a regular basis so it is a moot point. According to Bruce himself stated publicly, "there was no physical contact.."



> A good place to start would be mr.juchnik then you could move on to Eugene Sedeno or you could speak to Rick Alemany.



I've only stated my observations from facts as I know them that are well fairly documented in the legal system and the martial arts. If Gene or Rick have a different view, and my point of view disturbs them sufficiently, they may give me a call. Perhaps they may even tell you of my own credibility as a martial artist having shared company with myself and others on many occasions. Although it has been awhile since I've talked to them, we've shared seminars and demos together and I was with SGM Ralp Castro, Duke Moore, Tak Kubota, Ed Hamile, and Dr. Bernd Weiss the last time I saw them. Nice people for sure, but everybody has a view and some choose to worship at the alter of Mitose, but I do not for reasons that should seem obvious.



> I understand that in tth 80's Parker tried to somehow or affiliate with the U.S.K.A.



I can tell you categorically that Parker never tried to affiliate with anyone "in the eighties" as you state. However I can see how these stories might come about to justify ones positions and lineage much like the many aspersions cast by the Tracy's at Parker as well. Clearly you have your belief based on what people have told you, but at least my opinions and knowledge are first person and I will stick with them. Thanks for the exchange.


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## GAB (Jul 11, 2004)

Kell thanks I think???

Back to the profile on Doc, I read it and Ok?? Another epak. What is it with you guys as far as the Martial arts goes, you are late comers.. So big deal.
Gives you the right to run off at the mouth, educated, ok, if you say so. 

Two sides to every story and then there is the truth, does that mean everyone is a lyer???I don't think so..

What you said about Hanshi is not correct..Period..I know the old opinion routine, everyone has one, like ***holes right, Ok we got by that one.

Have you seen the writings of Will Tracy? He was a friend of SGMEP, but he had a few things he likes to discuss about EP.. I think SGMEP was great,
but he could not do the kind of Katas Hanshi could do in his best day..
Does that mean he sucked??? Your words not mine, but no, just different men.

So lets talk date and time. Al Reyes died in 77, so did John Leoning.
Are you telling me you saw Hanshi in Hawaii before that time doing Katas?? 
With Al Reyes no less, lets see Hanshi was a Tracy man right, Sifu Al Reyes was a Kajukenbo man, like Thomas B. Mitose. Maybe you have them confused? (Hanshi and GM) I will ask Hanshi next time I get the chance, it will be Tuesday next..

We may disagree about Mitose, Emperado and Chow, Parker, Tracy and Juchnik, but it is out there and it is still not in. 
I wish Nimer would say more, but why should he.. Nimer, Arabic for Panther, Hassan, Arabic for Assassin, some of the stories you will read also might be the gate keeper depends on what side you are on.   

So Doc I am new at this board whats next??? Attack by your amigos like on kenpo net because we talk a different teacher.. Ok, go for it..I am sitting here waiting for your educated mouth..

Regards, Gary


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## RCastillo (Jul 11, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> let me help you out. First the person you are talking about is Gary A. Brewer. Gary is a retired L.A.P.D. he worked foothill division and metro 114 hoorah!!!!
> Gary spent his time in the USMC. He also was a student of  John Leoning for a time. He also spent quite a bit of time on the mat with Bob koga. That would be the Bob Koga. The one who is/was responsible for defense training for LAPD and many other police agencies, but that was many years ago. Gary is currently studying more along the lines of Kali up here in Elk Grove Ca. Gary is also an avid history buff, having picked my tiny brain clean of martial facts on many occasion. Trust me once you have been picked clean by gary you need at least 72 hrs to recouperate but it's worth it he has assimilated and processed more M.A. info in the last 12 months than most do in a lifetime. Next question please.
> 
> kell



Whoa! Mr. Brewer , I knew it, has been on my trail! (Or in da shadows)
I seen him first at SanJoseKenpo, then Kenponet, and now here at MT. Also  an LAPD man! :bow: 

Must be on my best behavior here, or anywhere for that matter! :uhyeah:


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## kelly keltner (Jul 11, 2004)

Justification of lineage is a tricky subject to say the least. There are those who have justified themselves with many types of stories. Let's start with the guy who talked to a mist in his back yard. how bout the guy who recieved visions from his long dead grandfather who taught him gung fu. How bout the guy who dreamed he talked to an ancient Japanese god. Yes let's then talk about the gut who got on a plane with a green or brown belt and disembarked a great grand pubah. Yeah doc let's talk about justfication of lineage. So first off my understanding is that in tradional Japanese arts one generally has to be a fourth or fifth dan to promote others to yudansha. That being the case how can any lineage out of Mitose's lineage in Hawaii be considered legitimate since all that was awarded were what is to be considered first degree black belts. Gee I guess if I were to be technical all the rank that ever came from those people is not legitimate.  The only way to solve this problem therefore would be to cast doubt on Mitose's legitimacy itself.  Which is exactly what is going on.  Was Parker trying to align himself with the USKA. My sources say yes, you say no ok a disagreement so what. Since you were around at the time maybe you can help me with your Knoweldge and insight. Why did Trias a staunch traditionalist support Mr. Juchnik. Why did Thomas Young support Mr. Juchnik as head of Kosho. A Fact that is verifiable through  a video tape interview. Why does Paul Yamaguchi support Mr. Juchnik. Why did B.F. Lau support Mr. Juchnik.  If you would like I can put you in touch with Mr. Juchnik who you said sucks and you can discuss personally what he knows about any subject. All it takes is is a phone call. He is softspoken and easy to talk to. Just let me know and I'll hook you up. No animosity ,no anger, no hurt feelings I just would like you to talk to him. Oh to clear one last thing up my personal definintion of legitimacy is: its not who signed your papers its how you cultivate the seeds you plant. So in my book Parker ,Chow, Emparado, Ueshiba, and Shimabuku are all about as legit and traditional as you can get no matter what reasons they used to justify themselves. Whether they had a dream, saw a mist, talked to dead ancestors,got on a plane one rank and got off another.  They all created something and made it grow, in that lies their greatness

kell


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## Doc (Jul 11, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Kell thanks I think???
> Back to the profile on Doc, I read it and Ok?? Another epak. What is it with you guys as far as the Martial arts goes, you are late comers.. So big deal. Gives you the right to run off at the mouth, educated, ok, if you say so.



Mr. Brewer, clearly it would appear you have some problems with epak, (as you put it), and the level of emotional hostility on this and other forums would appear to bare that out. In particular your negative reaction to Ed Parkers son on another forum for apparently, from my perspective, no reason. I dont know what you mean by you guys but I may or may not be one of them of which you speak.



> Two sides to every story and then there is the truth, does that mean everyone is a lyer???I don't think so..



Mr. Brewer, I dont see where anyone has called anyone a liar. It would appear you only allow for your own biased opinions to prevail without it becoming an emotional issue.



> What you said about Hanshi is not correct..Period..I know the old opinion routine, everyone has one, like ***holes right, Ok we got by that one.



Well my opinion of Bruce was based on what I saw, and my interaction with him. Perhaps he has grown since then, but my observations are still valid. Perhaps if I can allow that he may have grown since our last encounter, then perhaps you could do the same with regard to him being a lousy martial artist at the time. At least concede he was having a bad day perhaps?



> Have you seen the writings of Will Tracy? He was a friend of SGMEP, but he had a few things he likes to discuss about EP..



Some friend. Yes I know Will, Al, and Jim and they too are entitled to their perspective, right or wrong. Mostly wrong in my opinion, but I do realize as well when and how they dropped their lineage from Parker and surreptitiously switched it to Mitose. That in itself speaks significantly of their perspectives.



> I think SGMEP was great,..



At last common ground.



> but he could not do the kind of Katas Hanshi could do in his best day..



Well, that didnt last long. Once again you present your opinion. Of course I have no way of knowing if you ever saw Parker do forms, but even if you did, to compare what Bruce would do to Parker is akin to apples versus hand grenades. (You choose)

Parker had left the Japanese/Okinawan influence years ago, so it would be very difficult to compare the two. I also have to be honest and admit speaking of them in comparable terms is somewhat distasteful to me personally, but I understand your position as you state it.



> Does that mean he sucked??? Your words not mine, but no, just different men.



Yes sir, those were my words and, based on my lack of political correctness, I expressed my opinion as emphatically as I could without being profane. But still it is only my opinion, and you are free to disregard it. Im sure what I say or do has no impact on you, your art, or your life of any significance.



> So lets talk date and time. Al Reyes died in 77, so did John Leoning.
> Are you telling me you saw Hanshi in Hawaii before that time doing Katas??  With Al Reyes no less, lets see Hanshi was a Tracy man right, Sifu Al Reyes was a Kajukenbo man, like Thomas B. Mitose. Maybe you have them confused? (Hanshi and GM) I will ask Hanshi next time I get the chance, it will be Tuesday next..



I do not personally remember when anyone passed except for those close to me, so I will take judicial notice on your proclamation. However I am not confused. Besides it would have been logistically difficult to confuse Al Reyes with Bruce at his own tournament.



> We may disagree about Mitose, Emperado and Chow, Parker, Tracy and Juchnik,..



Common ground once again.



> but it is out there and it is still not in.



It is apparent it is still not in for you sir, but as for me, this is a moot point of the highest degree. Clearly not in need of the emotional discharges emoting from your declarations. Taste great! Less filling! You are entitled to choose according to your own likes and dislikes and tastes. But at least mine are based on my personal first hand experiences, having met both Bruce and Mitose.



> I wish Nimer would say more, but why should he.. Nimer, Arabic for Panther, Hassan, Arabic for Assassin, some of the stories you will read also might be the gate keeper depends on what side you are on.



Perhaps you should borrow a clue from this gentleman who clearly does not desire to give this issue the level of emotional energy you have.



> So Doc I am new at this board whats next??? Attack by your amigos like on kenpo net because we talk a different teacher.. Ok, go for it..I am sitting here waiting for your educated mouth..



No sir. Instead I have for you some honest advice. This is MartialTalk. Here we have respectful, honest and open discussions. We do not always agree but we disagree with poise while expressing ourselves.

I for one have some significant disagreements with a great portion of the Ed Parker Kenpo Kommunity myself, but it has never hampered our ability to dialog on a civil level. I knew when I used the word sucked that it might annoy someone however to say, he was really, really, really, awful with horrible basic skills and a plethora of inconsistent mumbled unrecognizable movements, Im sure would have sparked the same tirades. I chose the short form. I did not besmirch his character or suggest he was a criminal or that he beat his wife. I just said he sucked. I feel certain in his life there may be some who expressed themselves upon his behalf in much more succinct and derogatory terms. From my perspective, I was being kind.

As for your experiences on KenpoNet, from the little that I have read, it would appear you initiated the tone of the exchanges on that forum, and did yourself no favor for attacking the motives of Ed Parker. 

Perhaps here at Martialtalk you would feel more comfortable in one of the many forums that lean more toward your interpretation of the arts and facts. Just a suggestion, and not meant to run you off.

At any rate on MartialTalk we have real moderators of substantial martial arts background and expertise in multiple disciplines. Rest assured that if you do not temper your tone, you will at least be given a warning, and at worse, you will be here no more.

I do however wish you peace sir for having protected and served our community on the front lines of chaos, and much success in your martial arts experiences. 

Although I am still out there, I hope to leave it behind very soon as soon as I can "sale" at least one of my daughters so i can afford to retire.


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## kelly keltner (Jul 11, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Somehow his standing as a "model prisoner" doesn't seem very relevant. As for the courtyard, while it is possible a "meeting" could have occurred once or twice against the rules of visitor contact, it would not be possible for this to happen on a regular basis so it is a moot point. According to Bruce himself stated publicly, "there was no physical contact.."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Doc

In regards to Rick or Gene You Could call them and ask all about what happened. If you wished you could also call Mr. Juchnik and ask to see the video taped interviews that they were both in with Mr. Juchnik regarding the era. Once again it starts with a meeting or a call that I can arrange for you.
Come on sir isn't it time to make the call.

kell


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## Doc (Jul 11, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Doc
> 
> In regards to Rick or Gene You Could call them and ask all about what happened. If you wished you could also call Mr. Juchnik and ask to see the video taped interviews that they were both in with Mr. Juchnik regarding the era. Once again it starts with a meeting or a call that I can arrange for you.
> Come on sir isn't it time to make the call.
> ...


So what you're saying is they made videotapes talking about things that were told to them. I'm sorry but that is still what is called "hearsay." But what disturbs me the most is that somehow your assertion suggests that these gentlemens opinion somehow supersede, or would have more credibility to me than my own knowledge and experience. 

As if somehow they could convince me based on what someone else told them rather than my own eyes. As far as I'm concerned they are just one step closer in the "telephone game" and have no more knowledge of the incidents in question than anyone else who was not there.

I would love to hear from old friends but not about an issue so unimportant to most as this. If you told me Ed Parker was an idiot, I would simply suggest you're mistaken. The man and what he was, for those who were close to him, speaks for itself. I do not need to in someway "prove" Ed Parkers worth and therefore vicariously sustain some validity for myself.

Ed Parker and his accomplishments are obvious. He is who he is and I who I am. We both stand on our own merits - or not, as men in the arts. The consensus is he was a great man and his detractors are few and self serving. If you believe otherwise move on, but raising your lineage to the level of some type of deity and than convincing others it should be important to them as it is to you is quite unnecessary.

It is fine to be firm in your convicctions, but make sure they are well founded on information you can verify for yourself other than hearsay. To do otherwise raises your position to that of having "faith." You should reserve that for religion, not martial arts. Accept, or not. Believe or not. I'm going to get some dinner and believe it or not this conversation wil leave my mind as quickly as the computer shuts down. Perhaps you should do the same. I suggest Chinese and continue to enjoy your martial arts experience, but there is no need to spread "your gospel."


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## GAB (Jul 11, 2004)

Dear Doc, Ok, thanks for the verbage, just what I figured.

Take care and as Clyde would say Have a good Kenpo Day.

Gary A. Brewer


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## kelly keltner (Jul 12, 2004)

Wait a minute wait a minute. These two gentlemen lived through it they were there they visited mitose in prison did you sir? Are these interviews about something somebody told them or are they about what they saw.  By the way sir how much of what you say comes from what Parker and is that gospel or is it faith. Once again is it not worth a phone call to the man who lived it. I make the offer one more time. I can arrange that for you. 

kell


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## kelly keltner (Jul 12, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Wait a minute wait a minute. These two gentlemen lived through it they were there they visited mitose in prison did you sir? Are these interviews about something somebody told them or are they about what they saw. By the way sir how much of what you say comes from what Parker and is that gospel or is it faith. Once again is it not worth a phone call to the man who lived it. I make the offer one more time. I can arrange that for you.
> 
> kell[/
> 
> ...


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## kelly keltner (Jul 12, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> kelly keltner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kelly keltner (Jul 12, 2004)

One other thing:I have never tried to raise anyones lineage to the level of "deity". My sole point is this: Mr. Juchnik has a lot of pertinent information, including but not limited to; videotaped interviews with people who studied with Mitrose in the 1940's and 50's, peolple who were close to Mitose near the end of his life, as well as the notification of death that was issued by the prison. He, Mr. Juchnik, also posseses a very interesting forensic handwriting analysis, which was performed by the same forensic hand writing specialist who provided expert witness testimony in the Dorthea Puente trial here in Sacramento several years ago.


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## Doc (Jul 12, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> One other thing:I have never tried to raise anyones lineage to the level of "deity". My sole point is this: Mr. Juchnik has a lot of pertinent information, including but not limited to; videotaped interviews with people who studied with Mitrose in the 1940's and 50's, peolple who were close to Mitose near the end of his life, as well as the notification of death that was issued by the prison. He, Mr. Juchnik, also posseses a very interesting forensic handwriting analysis, which was performed by the same forensic hand writing specialist who provided expert witness testimony in the Dorthea Puente trial here in Sacramento several years ago.



Oh I see. You simply don't get it do you? Pertinent to whom? You see I have this life and ...

Its like the line by Tommy Lee Jones in the movie the Fugitive. Harrison Ford says, I didnt kill my wife. To which Tommy Lee replies, I dont care. Whats important to some is immaterial to others. These people are in your lineage, so its important you justify it. 

You may not beleive this but I do not feel I will have some kind of epiphany from talking to Bruce or anyone else. You worship the "quiet spoken" "easy to talk to" Bruce, I dont. He himself has already said he had no physical contact with mitose so whats the point? Id be more interested in what you know and how you translate what you say you learned.

Yet here we are still talking about things you have no personal knowledge of, and you choose to accept them. Somebody said that somebody said they were there. Fine! I look at things differently, and like my teacher, simply dont care. My credibility rests with my knowledge and skills, not with Parker or anyone else. I am one of his black belts, but that doesnt make me knowledgeable, honorable, or skillful. That has to come from me. There are lots of bad black belts under everybodys tree and the history in my opinion is most important to those who need it for reasons of their own. I dont. Funny how nobody asks about the history of all the asskickers. I guess when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter unless perhaps you need the history to prove how good you are. When you stand in front of me you either think I know what Im doing or you dont. 

My favorite vendor is coming and I want a burrito. 

Last seeya on this topic.

Golden Dragon - Wassup witdat dog?


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 12, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> My favorite vendor is coming and I want a burrito.


 Hi Doc... Interesting rebuttal...burrito's on me!

MJ :asian:


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## kelly keltner (Jul 12, 2004)

Once again I see the word "worship" and "deify" and once again I don't agree.
I have never proclaimed Mr. Juchnik or Mitose as the living embodiment of god. I have never prayed to either of them, nor begged forgiveness of sin from them.  I have never justified or endorsed criminal activity on Mitose's part. Once again you tell me I am basicly doing the telephone game. Once again I have given you an oppurtunity to access information from people who were there, not my interpretation, but in there own words. Plus forensic reports, and prison documentation. Once again you said no. I am not asking you to have an epiphany or an enlightenment. What I am saying is there is information out there available. Everytime I present the offer I get shot down. That's ok but if you are going to give a reason.  Give a better one than hearsay or the telephone game or I don't care. Especially since some of the people in the video's are your friends, and friends of Mr. Juchnik as well.  I happened to talk to Hanshi Juchnik this morning he would like to extend an invitation to his gathering in Portland, Oregon this Fall. I also asked him about "Al Reyes's" tournament  In Hawaii.  He stated he never competed in that tournament, and when he did compete in tournaments he only did kumite. Since this constitutes hearsay on my part why don't you give him a call.

kelly

P.S. If I ever get the privilege of meeting you. I'll buy lunch.


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## RCastillo (Jul 12, 2004)

To all viewing this thread;Just remember, a simple question was asked, and then this person on this thread said,"This person sucks, and this person sucks."

That's how people speak in High School, so annoying, and so illogoical. Ask Bill Cosby, he says the same thing, twice!

And this is coming from educated people?

Very sad.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 12, 2004)

All I know is the kata Naihanchi Shodan that Bruce shows on the tape is minor looking compared to what Seiyu Oyata does. If he learn it from Mitose, then it didn't come from Motobu or he modified it.


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## Doc (Jul 12, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Once again I see the word "worship" and "deify" and once again I don't agree.
> I have never proclaimed Mr. Juchnik or Mitose as the living embodiment of god. I have never prayed to either of them, nor begged forgiveness of sin from them.  I have never justified or endorsed criminal activity on Mitose's part. Once again you tell me I am basicly doing the telephone game. Once again I have given you an oppurtunity to access information from people who were there, not my interpretation, but in there own words. Plus forensic reports, and prison documentation. Once again you said no. I am not asking you to have an epiphany or an enlightenment. What I am saying is there is information out there available. Everytime I present the offer I get shot down. That's ok but if you are going to give a reason.  Give a better one than hearsay or the telephone game or I don't care. Especially since some of the people in the video's are your friends, and friends of Mr. Juchnik as well.  I happened to talk to Hanshi Juchnik this morning he would like to extend an invitation to his gathering in Portland, Oregon this Fall. I also asked him about "Al Reyes's" tournament  In Hawaii.  He stated he never competed in that tournament, and when he did compete in tournaments he only did kumite. Since this constitutes hearsay on my part why don't you give him a call.
> 
> kelly
> ...



although it wasn't a competition but a demonstration, the judges participated and scored the performance. He'll remember me. I'm the one who gave him the "5."

I know this great "all you can eat" Chinese Buffet ..........


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## Doc (Jul 12, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> although it wasn't a competition but a demonstration, the judges participated and scored the performance. He'll remember me. I'm the one who gave him the "5."
> 
> I know this great "all you can eat" Chinese Buffet ..........



You know I just remembered. Charles Gonzalez was with me. For those who don't know, Charlie was Parker's lithographer and owned Castle Litho, and printed all of Parker's books and materials in the 70's and 80's. We had a ball on the Big Island. Especially at the tournament.


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## Bill Lear (Jul 12, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> You know I just remembered. Charles Gonzalez was with me. For those who don't know, Charlie was Parker's lithographer and owned Castle Litho, and printed all of Parker's books and materials in the 70's and 80's. We had a ball on the Big Island. Especially at the tournament.



Is that the same Charlie Gonzalez that Frank promoted to 6th not too long ago?  

:ultracool


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## Doc (Jul 12, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> To all viewing this thread;Just remember, a simple question was asked, and then this person on this thread said,"This person sucks, and this person sucks."
> 
> That's how people speak in High School, so annoying, and so illogoical. Ask Bill Cosby, he says the same thing, twice!
> 
> ...



Actually sir, I only said he "sucked" once, and although I have a substantial educational background, this in no way should proclude me from expressing my opinion, of what to me, was an awful performance I witnessed first hand. The term may "annoy" you but it is not "illogical." It is a simple coloquial expression that left no doubt in anyone's mind of my impression of what I witnessed.

I could have easily launched a long winded dissertation examining the many negatives of the performance, however I calculated that no matter how I chose to say it, the response would ultimately be the same, so I chose to be one-word succinct and direct. There is really no nice way to say a person was really, really, really, awful.

I too find it "very sad," that of all the things the were brought forth in the discussion that could have fostered real and interesting dialog if you really had chose to participate, you instead fixated on a one word description that was neither profane, nor did it cast aspersions on the gentlemen's character, as you attempted to do of me. 

This is not unsual from some of those deeply entrenched in the Mitose/Tracy myths. Perhaps that is the seed of your original discontent once that was brought forth. Either way it is really only a minor disagreement in my mind, but at least I was there.

You may not find my opinion valid but perhaps if you had been there, you would agree with me. I think I'm being reasonable, but you may not. Perhaps we can come together on another topic, if you choose to contribute instead of criticize verbage.

I will not however temper the way I communicate to suit your sensibilities. However, either way you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but I stand by my assertion as appropriate, and unfortunately supremely accurate.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 13, 2004)

After reading all the posts in this thread I realized two thing.

1.  I will never get those 20 minutes back, and they could have been used for training or somethig else constructive.

2.  This topic will always be heated since as human beings we are all emotional creatures.  some of us more so than others.


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## kelly keltner (Jul 13, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> although it wasn't a competition but a demonstration, the judges participated and scored the performance. He'll remember me. I'm the one who gave him the "5."
> 
> I know this great "all you can eat" Chinese Buffet ..........



Great we have a all you can eat here in Elk Grove called the giant panda friday night is seafood night you can eat all the lobster tails you can handle at the buffet 20 bucks, man it's great.

By the way Bruce said he wasn't there. You really ought to call.

kell


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## kelly keltner (Jul 13, 2004)

I have a Quick question to anyone who reads this. There is a rank listing underneath my name when I post. It just went from white belt to yellow belt. What's the deal? As you post more on the board it changes? I think it's a neat deal. What are the rules on how it works.

kell kell


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## kelly keltner (Jul 13, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> After reading all the posts in this thread I realized two thing.
> 
> 1. I will never get those 20 minutes back, and they could have been used for training or somethig else constructive.
> 
> 2. This topic will always be heated since as human beings we are all emotional creatures. some of us more so than others.


You are so right in so many ways
kk


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## RCastillo (Jul 13, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> Actually sir, I only said he "sucked" once, and although I have a substantial educational background, this in no way should proclude me from expressing my opinion, of what to me, was an awful performance I witnessed first hand. The term may "annoy" you but it is not "illogical." It is a simple coloquial expression that left no doubt in anyone's mind of my impression of what I witnessed.
> 
> I could have easily launched a long winded dissertation examining the many negatives of the performance, however I calculated that no matter how I chose to say it, the response would ultimately be the same, so I chose to be one-word succinct and direct. There is really no nice way to say a person was really, really, really, awful.
> 
> ...



No Sir,  you said it twice, about 2 people.

We know all too well about your background, and no one is procluding you from saying what you want. The term used makes, no sense. Used enough, it becomes vulgar.

Yes, you can say it nicely, by saying you didn't like it. That we can go on.

Why would I participate, when we long already know your feelings on the subject. Now you're getting after me because I won't enter a discussion that's academic? I also don't have to enter asperations on character, you already do that well on your own.

I don't care about the lineage issue, and no "seed" of discontent is there on my part.(Nice try) I wasn't there, you were, and I said it several postings earlier.

We all know you're valid, but where are you coming from with that ??? At least my verbage isn't like yours. Yes, you can be reasonable, we know that as well. 

I'd never ask anything of you, what for? You're not gonna suit anyone, anyways. You're gonna say what you want, and it's still over done, and vulger.

You 're more than entitled to your opinion, but that's not the issue you're addressing here from my previous post. It's all about semantics, isn't it?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 13, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> although it wasn't a competition but a demonstration, the judges participated and scored the performance. He'll remember me. I'm the one who gave him the "5."
> 
> I know this great "all you can eat" Chinese Buffet ..........


Doc:

I don't know that the buffet was all that great. The company was awesome, but the MSG hand-swelling and tummy ache were profound.

As for GAB, Keltner (sp?) etc...My limited experience with Mr. Juchnik is that he has a vested interest in painting himself in the best possible ongoing light at any given point in time. My experience with Doc has been quite the opposite: what you see is what you get, and if you don't like it, go ahead and slink back to the comfortable ignorance in which you find your bliss, and train there till the sun burns out. Unopen minds are incapable of assimilating new information, and are useless to instructors of Docs caliber.

Doc, if you're unfortunate enough to not know (as he is unlikely to toot his own horn except in cryptic inferences) is one of the maybe half-dozen kenpo seniors with any degree of internally consistent integrity, and -- to date -- the only one I know of to maintain his commitment to Mr. Parker by remaining active with the Family, and supporting them in thier own struggles.  Having seen Mr. Juchnik in person and on tape, I would be glad to venture that Mr. Chapel has a much deeper, more profound understanding of the intricacies of kenpo/kempo done well then folks such as Juchnik will ever grasp until they meet with him. Mr. Chapel does not seek recognition, wealth, or fame throgh his teachings. In fact, one would be hard put to locate him on the web with videos, and the like. Mr. Juchnik, on the other hand, is everywhere (vested interest?)

I used to think Mr. Bruce had a corner on something quite valuable. Years pass, and now I believe him to be an opportunist attempting to translate his prison interviews into a claim of possession of the holy grail of kenpo.  Trouble is, many of his yudansha look lost in motion, missing something in the translation. Likely because there wasn't much of substance to learn.

Considering that apples don't fall far from trees, Mr. Mitose's skills left many of EKP's students underwhelmed when he showed to train with them in Pasadena in the early days.  Robert Perry recounted Mitose coming like a train, and very hard to stop or match on a straight frontal clash.  Catch? Kenpo didn't fight toe to toe in straight lines...angle changes with counter-attacks to open targets, and these young american black belts were peppering him as he motored on by.

There were a few around in the day when Mitose was active, and few of them had anything constructive to say about him; very few compliments on his martial prowess. I think there is a need to mystify the memories and skills of those who have gone before, in order to feel better about the path we are on. Recently, people were scampering to pay respects to GM kuoha, because he deigned to address the froum on issues pertaining to Chow. I remained, still, underwhelmed for several reasons. First, every bit of footage or picture sequence I've seen of GM Kuoha of his daughter has demonstrated disconnected basics, seemingly delivered haphazardly and without prior planning for cumulative effect.  Clean and hard, but unrelated. No "playing the accordion" I've come to appreciate from kenpo & kajukenbo. Second, I've heard from many sources who were there, that Chow was progresslively plagued by alzheimers type episodes with remaining residuals, progressivly worsening. At about the time Idi Amin was in the news, there were several people relating incidents of Chow wandering the beaches, stapling bottle caps to his gi and showing off his medals.

Are a convicted felon and mental health patient worthy of our undying mythical respect? 

Juchnik perfoms Kempo with the addition of super-secret info he managed to glean from Mr. Mitose via a handful of conversations. If, in fact, GM Mitose had a sceptor of data to pass, it would have properly taken the better part of 15 years intense training, one on one, hours a day, several days a week. All to learn information that could not possibly be transferred without the feedback mechanism of human touch. Luxuries Mr. Juchnik did not have access to.

Parker was an inventor and innovator, as well. But at east that's how he comported himself...not as the rightful heir to the mighty chain belt in one-hung-low kung fu. I've said before, I'd rather own a Pitbull/Mastiff mix without AKC papers, then a toy poodle with proper pedigree. All kenpo pedigree is suspect, and likely crap. Some kenpo practitioners simply have abetter understanding of the mechanics of motion then others. Having seen and met both Doc and Bruce, I will choose Doc's unique and highly sophisticated (yet decietfully simple) approach to kenpo.  And no, GAB, I am not a student of his. Yet. But if lucky, I will be. He is one of the few disciples of the old man I've ever seen who actually moves with the speed, authority and ownership the old man had. Note: It is not Juchnik I'm interested in training with.

I heard a story recently about a day Mitose's "son" (not necessarily his blood son) demoed at a tourney. All lined up to see, becaue this was supposed to be the purest remaining expression of the kenpo taught by the founder of our clans as the exist today. By more then one account, the room was silent not in awe, but in disbelief and dissapointment. How could a prime heir do so poorly? Of course, many rated his performance highly, since he was an heir-apparent. Few had the resolve to call what they saw, and were criticized for it. It appears not everyone is ready to admit the emporer has no clothes.

I, for one, can avoid Mr. Juchnik's teachings until in the fullness fo years and the due passage of time, it becomes my turn to slip from this mortal plate to the next. Only my opinion, but then again, isn't that all we ever have? Salvation rests in some of them being better informed than others.

Regards,

Dave


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## Doc (Jul 13, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Is that the same Charlie Gonzalez that Frank promoted to 6th not too long ago?
> 
> :ultracool



Yes that's "Charlie." On one of my trips to Hawaii with the "Old Man," Charlie was with us. He was originally a black belt student of Frank and a nice man.


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## Doc (Jul 13, 2004)

Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> All I know is the kata Naihanchi Shodan that Bruce shows on the tape is minor looking compared to what Seiyu Oyata does. If he learn it from Mitose, then it didn't come from Motobu or he modified it.


I know Oyata Sensei and must agree with you. No comparison between the two. But once again, only my opinion.


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## Doc (Jul 13, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Doc:
> 
> I don't know that the buffet was all that great. The company was awesome, but the MSG hand-swelling and tummy ache were profound.



Not THAT one. My "private" one. 



> I heard a story recently about a day Mitose's "son" (not necessarily his blood son) demoed at a tourney. All lined up to see, becaue this was supposed to be the purest remaining expression of the kenpo taught by the founder of our clans as the exist today. By more then one account, the room was silent not in awe, but in disbelief and dissapointment. How could a prime heir do so poorly? Of course, many rated his performance highly, since he was an heir-apparent. Few had the resolve to call what they saw, and were criticized for it. It appears not everyone is ready to admit the emporer has no clothes.



Wow that's weird. That's almost verbatim what happened when I met and judged him on Hawaii. There was a "buzz" in the crowd and the word quickly spread that "The masters son is going to do a demo." I asked Parker who they were talking about. Unphased he said, "They're talking about Bruce." I asked who he was because I had never heard of him. Parker said, "He's not really Mitose's son."

They then began to assemble a kata board for the demo. Al Reyes came over and asked Parker, who quickly declined and volunteered the services of his black belt standing next to him (me) instead. (Charlie Gonzalez wa sharing the company of a couple gorgeous local girls) I asked Parker, "What should I do?" He said, "You know what to do. Just judge his form." Well I sat down and when this guy began to move I couldn't believe what I was seeing. After all the hype, a knew "buzz" began to ripple through the crowd in low whispers magnified by the numbers sharing the same thought. 

When it became time to score I had to decide whether to give him the "5" I ultimately did give him, or the "3" I really felt. He was just awful in every respect. Yes he "sucked" (that's 2) to put it mildly. I looked around and everyone of the other judges gave him a "10." When I raised the "5" there was a momentary gasp that slowly turned in to a murmur, and finally nervous gigles punctuated with a few laughs. When I got off the stage, I asked Parker if I had did the right thing. He laughed and said, "You did exactly what I knew you would do. Good job!"

That was the last time I saw Bruce. Later I saw Al Reyes in Long Beach when I was running the Internationals. Al Reyes came up to me and said, "Hey Ron, it took a lot of balls to do what you did in Hawaii judging Juchnik's kata. I said, "Not really." I didn't know who he was so there was no pressure. I just was honest. He said, "Well that's for sure."

Thanks for the kind words Dr. Dave C.


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## kelly keltner (Jul 13, 2004)

Please sir tell me how this Happened. I thought Al Reyes died in 1977. The same year John Leoning died. Bruce Juchnik did not meet mitose until late 1977. So what year was the tournament again? What did you see? Who else that was at this tournament that can back what you saw and did?  If it was a large tournament then there must be some of your contemporaries that can coroborate your story. Why don't you call Mr. Juchnik so you both can stroll down good old memory lane and remind him of a tournament he never attended put on by a man who's lifespan only overlapped the timespan Juchnik knew Mitose by 2-3 months, and was viewed by many people, none of which have come forth to support your story bub.

kelly


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## kelly keltner (Jul 13, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Doc:
> 
> I don't know that the buffet was all that great. The company was awesome, but the MSG hand-swelling and tummy ache were profound.
> 
> ...



You heard a story; isn't that hearsay? Doc we need a rulling on this one, but I don't know about that one since Doc is problably the one who told the story to begin with.


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## kelly keltner (Jul 13, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Doc:
> 
> I don't know that the buffet was all that great. The company was awesome, but the MSG hand-swelling and tummy ache were profound.
> 
> ...



Hey Dave show me where Mr. Juuchnik claims to have the holy grail of kenpo. I'll be the first to admit the whole James mitose taught me in prison story sounds fishy but, Mr. Juchnik was already a proficient martial artist when he met Mitose. So if Mitose told him to study certains sujects such as timing and distancing visual plane and then Bruce expands his knowledge on those subjects and how to apply them in a martial sense. Then if Mitose says go seek out certain people who are experts in different areas and learn from them Trias, Young as well as others, and what little physical training was allowed given the setting. I would say that Bruce Juchnik was taught a lot of things when he visited him or was at least directed to where to go to in order to learn them. Ther are no secrets in the arts Hanshi Juchnik teaches. There is no mojo, there is only study. The fact is that Mitose chose to leave what he considered his art to Bruce Juchnik is Between Bruce and his teacher. What I know is there is considerable proof by the way of interviews, and a forensic handwriting report that bear these facts out. I will make my same offer to you that I made to Mad Doc and John bishop. Would you like to talk to Mr. Juchnik about your opinions and your facts? Would you like to see his documentation? I can arrange that for you.

Kelly


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## Rob Broad (Jul 14, 2004)

kelly keltner

Why is it that you keep insisting Doc call Mr Juchnik, if it is that much of a thorn in your side why don't you give Doc a call and discuss it on the phone, maybe even have a 3 way call.  I have been fortunate to have exchanged emails with Doc in the past and I for 1 respect him.  He isn't hiding behind others sporting claims to greatness and giving heresay about the old days, he was there.  He was there with Ed Parker and knows the score. 

This thread has become quite tiresome, so if you want to resolve things with Doc do it on the phone instead of wasting space on a good board with dirty laundry.


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## GAB (Jul 14, 2004)

To Rob Broad.
The point is 1977 Al Reyes died.. Get It? Prior to Hanshi meeting Mitose..Get it,
Bored or not, the story is growing because it is not true, lets embellish it somemore. Ron Chapel can be the greatest, he and I have no anomosity.
But he is wrong on this one. Period.. 
In a case of law it would be thrown out because of the tainted vine, so no good fruit.. Get it.. If you don't the law professor will explain it further I am sure. Memories sometime play tricks. 
Kell, old buddy give it a rest.. Lies beget more lies.. Get it Rob???
Regards, Gary


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## kelly keltner (Jul 14, 2004)

Who is hiding sir? I am here. If doc wants to talk to me he can send me his # in a private message and I will call him. I don't think I have ever really shown disrespect to him. In fact I seem to be the on having to defend myself against Mitose worship. When I stated on at least one I do not condone or endorse Mitose's criminal activities. I think you should find my post on legitimacy and read it so you can get a clear read on where I am coming from. Furthermore Doc made statements about seeing Mr. Juchnik perform kata; not only did the timeframe make it highly unlikely that the event ever took place, and no one else who was there has come forth to support such a statement. Not to mention the fact that Mr. Juchnik says he was never there. So If you sir do not care for this thread don't read or reply to it. What would make you happy that I be silent and watch doc write things that just plain aren't true, and that can only be defended if people are silent. Are you worshiping at the altar of doc? The popular phrase is that"doc lived it". Wait just a minute slick Mr. Juchnik also lived it and has interviews and other documentation. So who is being raised to status of deity? Who 's word is being deemed beyond reproach? And all I ask is for the person who makes these ugly yellow statements is to stand up be accountable, and talk to the person they are accusing. I have gone so far as to invite the good doctor to Mr. Juchnick's yearly event. Not out of spite or malice, but out of friendship. So he could see the good work and growth that Hanshi Juchnik has worked to achieve. So what do I get for my efforts shot down, insulted and hammered. I get told that he doesn't care and that he wont reply on the subject anymore. Then he proceeds to do exactly opposite of what he said he'd do. So what do I say, call Mr. Juchnik would love to talk to ya.


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## kelly keltner (Jul 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> To Rob Broad.
> The point is 1977 Al Reyes died.. Get It? Prior to Hanshi meeting Mitose..Get it,
> Bored or not, the story is growing because it is not true, lets embellish it somemore. Ron Chapel can be the greatest, he and I have no anomosity.
> But he is wrong on this one. Period..
> ...


"I have not yet begun to defile myself" Doc Holiday from the movie Tombstone
kell


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## Seig (Jul 14, 2004)

*ADMIN WARNING*

*Keep this discussion polite and respectful.*
*-SEIG-*
*-MT Operational Admin-*


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## kelly keltner (Jul 14, 2004)

Some clarification please Who is being warned? gab or kelly . I know your just doing your job. Were my movie quotes offensive? Just trying to be funny.
kelly


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## KenpoTess (Jul 14, 2004)

*It was a General 'To All Participants of the Thread' Warning.

~Tess
-MT. S. Mod-
*


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## Michael Billings (Jul 14, 2004)

Not as a Mod here, but as a reader and member,  I was going to specifically say something about the sarcasm.  It is fine to support either position, however the tone in which that is done should not be condesending or sarcastic "get it" repeatedly is just one example.



> To Rob Broad.
> The point is 1977 Al Reyes died.. Get It? Prior to Hanshi meeting Mitose..Get it,
> Bored or not,_ the story is growing because it is not true, lets embellish it somemore_. Ron Chapel can be the greatest, he and I have no anomosity.
> But he is wrong on this one. Period..
> ...


  		 Italics and underlines added for emphasis on those points I interpret as sarcastic or condesending.

 -Michael


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## DavidCC (Jul 14, 2004)

It seems possible to me that 24 years ago, prior to his meeting Mitose in prison, the performance Mr Juchnik gave at that tournament, did in fact, suck.  If you deny the _possibility_ of this, then you are not being logical.  

Doc Chapel never said that the tournament was before or after Mitose and Juchnik got together, so trying to prove that the performance never happened by referring to the date of Mr Reyes death is again, illogical.

Perhaps Mr. Juchnik did suck in 1977, then later Mitose had some conversations with him about kenpo, then he practiced for 24 years, and now he doesn't suck.  Duhhhhhh.  I would hope that after 24 years of practice that somebody would suck less than they did before.

-David


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## GAB (Jul 14, 2004)

Hey, Tater salad! hows Tater Tot?? Cover it with cheese and then they will eat it.. "Ron White"

If it is a duck and quacks like a duck, must be duck. Get the shotgun honey, it's dinner time.. "Lots of duck lovers.".

He that cannot reason is a fool, he that will not is a bigot, he that dare not is a slave. "more people then you can imagine"...

If you want to make enemies, try to change something, Woodrow Wilson.

Trying to change someones character is harder than to move a mountain.. (before earth movers) "Kung Fu Tsu" ...  Or... It is easier to Move a mountain then to change the Character of a  Man , "Same as above."

You can fool some of the people, some of the time, some of the people all the time..But.. You can't fool all the people all the time.. Honest Abe..I love that guy, gave his all, and look what it has gotten us...Gary A. Brewer.

History is written by the guy who wants to tell his side of the story at least 50% of the time, the trick is to be able to know which 50% is the truth..
Regards, Gary


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## KenpoTess (Jul 14, 2004)

Gary.. you're making my head 'splode~!!!


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## GAB (Jul 14, 2004)

I beg to differ about sarcasam, those are not sacrcastic. it is a statement.

Redundent, yes but not sarcastic..

Do you understand, get it, I just showed you a move, get it.. Get it.. Short for do you get it?? Can you understand what I am saying. 

Then we have someone else saying, well he still sucks because Doc said so..

Fine, But I am sorry, in my opinion Doc was not there and neither was Hanshi.

Remember there were not a lot of Blacks ( I have never met the man nor seen him I am going on hearsay, am I wrong) in that date and time I am sure that person would stand out in the crowd, and not by his 5 on a rating card, that did not happen. 

It happened as the story was embellished not in the original attack (opinion) He, can have One (Doc) an (opinion), I can't refute his nastyness with a statement and a back up, of get it.. Ok..
Not sacastic.. I knew and was waiting for the attacks.. Throw it to a review, Bring in John Bishop, what he say's I will bend to.. Yours in Kajukenbo..
Ok Doc??? 
Regards, Gary


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 14, 2004)

I've no idea about how well Mr. Juchnik moves, nor do I particularly care.

However, I strongly object to the implicit racism in this last post, which calls Ron Chap'el a liar and specifically grounds its reasons for that claim upon his being, "Black." 

I also wasn't there. But I believe the story, because it tells me that then--as now--there's too damn much of the emperor's new clothes in kenpo. I've personally seen more than one, "senior," in kenpo who can't move for beans, and whose form sucks. Fortunately, I've also seen more than ten of them who have wonderful form, and who can snatch a bean out of my hand any time they want. And while I haven't met him and have disagreed with him right from the get-go, I've never seen any evidence that Ron Chap'el lies.

I also believe the story--at least as an allegory--because I'm familiar with the structure of nonsense. There's way too much idolizing going on; the attempts to legitimate learning Mystic Secrets through prison bars are  ludicrous; there's no solid evidence presented that Mitose (who lost, "Mr.," so far as I'm concerned, when he got into conspiracy to commit murder on two elderly people) knew very much at all. Then too, there's way too much, "knows more than most martial artists learn in a lifetime," and "knows 200+ kata," and assorted other attempts at compelling agreement with sheer numbers--you know, like Nixon used to do--"The FBI has investigated over 1,263 reports, submitted over 32,119 pages of report, catalogued in excess 0f 243, 675 pieces of forensic evidence, and I can tell you categorically that this Administration has been cleared of all connections to the Watergate burglars."

I suspect, too, that some posters are going by hearsay, not direct experience, anyway. 

And anyway, who the hell cares? As has been mentioned, it is presently impossible to disentangle fact from fiction in martial arts  history generally, let alone in kenpo, given a) the hype; b) the lack of evidence; c) the secrecy; d)  the fantasies; e) the politics; f) the oedipal games; g) the self-promotion....it'll take some real scholarly types (hey, John Bishop...whaddya doing for the next five years? want to collaborate?) sitting down with lots of time and support, and even then, it's going to be extraordinarily difficult. Because in my professional  opinion--and yes, insofar as scholarship is concerned, I can legitimately give one--most of the stuff that gets passed off as scholarship in martial arts is laughable.

And anyway, who cares. Don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters, I say. Shouldn't folks be worried about what THEY can do, not what their kenpo great-granddaddy can do? Shouldn't teachers be teaching self-reliance and a commitment to study, not adoration? Shouldn't we be looking at our history and its tangles with a skeptical, knowing eye, not searching for little brass ikons?

Sorry. That last post cheesed me off. I'm sure that "GAB," will shoot back a claim that they didn't mean anything by it, which is just what always happens. But this is the sort of thing you get, when you go off on these sorts of threads, which seem designed only to sing paeans to the Gods.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 14, 2004)

I *DO* understand the the evidentiary process, and I do understand the concept of tainted evidence, and I do get it.  I can also take sarcasm very well, but I do suggest that if a person wants to make attacks at me take it to either email or private messages, but be warned don't come to a battle of wits unarmed.


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## GAB (Jul 14, 2004)

Rm and Rob, just read the posts of Doc and Mine forget the others.
I meant what I said and I stand by it, who cares, I care about what I said.
I care about what Doc said. I don't care what you are saying because you are
incorrect about what I said. Like Clyde would say, Have a good Kenpo day.. 
Regards, Gary.... Ps, Rm I am surprised you didn't say I was Presario, I talked to Doc about that and it is something that has been going on in one form or another, for along time..
Besides Rm, you never did answer my question. Cat got your tongue??G


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## Rob Broad (Jul 14, 2004)

Gab

Please tell me what I said that was incorrect?  And I suspect there would be a lot less animosity towards you if you toned down your attitude towards other people.  

I, like many others here on MT usually respond to better with people who don't hide behind anonimity, fill out your profile and let people know who they are talking to.


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## GAB (Jul 14, 2004)

Rob, now that is what I call a taunt, which by Webster is sarcasm.. I am not being sarcastic. you are Sir. Bring your Dictionary to the class before you throw taunts at me and call my statements Sarcasm, then run off to the monitors and say what you will.. 
You have already violated the first article of Kenpo as Will Tracy has said in the past about SGMEP. You know the more I read the more I believe Will.. 
As far as a deity, Talk to clyde about that one, like I said before, for all the Mormons and others, I am an Agnostic.. So take your best shot Rob. My History is a lot more solid then the Mormons is, I go back to pre Revolutionary and then some,  I have been under the gun for so many years this is kids play.. Take Care, Gary


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## kelly keltner (Jul 14, 2004)

Thakyou for the clarification.
kelly


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 14, 2004)

MOD WARNING
please keep the conversation polite and respectfull.
Sean Wold


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## GAB (Jul 14, 2004)

Rob, Kell already posted in this thread about me, I guess I can post something in my profile, even that does not mean much, I have told the people on kenponet a lot about me and they still try to tell me kid stuff. Pathetic, I say. I state I am a trained killer. But people still want to tell me how I should train in this or that; or claim I am not who I say am. So what is the use, I know who I am...Thats all that counts, the rest is just foreplay.. Regards Gary


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## Rob Broad (Jul 14, 2004)

GAB said:
			
		

> Rob, now that is what I call a taunt, which by Webster is sarcasm.. I am not being sarcastic. you are Sir. Bring your Dictionary to the class before you throw taunts at me and call my statements Sarcasm, then run off to the monitors and say what you will..
> You have already violated the first article of Kenpo as Will Tracy has said in the past about SGMEP. You know the more I read the more I believe Will..
> As far as a deity, Talk to clyde about that one, like I said before, for all the Mormons and others, I am an Agnostic.. So take your best shot Rob. My History is a lot more solid then the Mormons is, I go back to pre Revolutionary and then some,  I have been under the gun for so many years this is kids play.. Take Care, Gary




I have no idea what the .... you are talking about.  I am not taunting anyone, I am trying to allieviate a little bit of the tension in this thread.  I know for fact that people respond better to those who take the time to fill out their profile, it allows people to know who they are talking to.

I never mentioned anything about diety.  I refuse to take shots at any religious group, it is not my style.

I have not taken any shots at anyone.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 14, 2004)

Gab

My last post was being typed at the same time you posted your post.


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## kelly keltner (Jul 14, 2004)

Thank you Dave I appreciate that insight. Let's review shall we; in post #60 doc quotes Mr. parker as saying"he's not really mitose's son". The implication being that Bruce Juchnik was seeing or was claiming Mitose at the time, but Juchnik was still teaching Tracy's Kenpo at that time. Next let's look how that ties into time frame. By all acounts Mr. Juchnik did not start seeing Mitose until late 1977 and Alan Reyes died in 1977. That would mean that there could be a 2-3 month overlap between the time Alan Reyes died and when Bruce first started communicating with Mitose. Therefore there is a remote possibility that this occured, if you believe docs story. Doc also states that Al Reyes came up and spoke to him  later at the internationals. Now the only way for this to be possible is if it falls between the 2-3 month period and the date of Al Reyes's death. Now If Al Reyes's date of death is early to Mid 1977 then Doc's story is full of enough holes to sink a battleship. Not to mention the fact that no one has come forth as an eyewitness to what he saw and did to coroborate his story.  Not to mention the fact that Bruce Juchnik states he was never there to begin with. I have spoken with Bruce and he is very concerned that these stories are circulating about him and is happy to speak with anyone who has questions. Just drop me an email at kelly_m_keltner@Juno.com an I will give you his number. I am truly saddened to see these statements being made and so little being done to contact the person being attacked.


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## kelly keltner (Jul 14, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> *It was a General 'To All Participants of the Thread' Warning.*
> 
> *~Tess*
> *-MT. S. Mod-*


 Thankyou for the clarification I thought someone might have been offended by my Doc Holiday Quote.
kel kel


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## kelly keltner (Jul 14, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> kelly keltner
> 
> Why is it that you keep insisting Doc call Mr Juchnik, if it is that much of a thorn in your side why don't you give Doc a call and discuss it on the phone, maybe even have a 3 way call. I have been fortunate to have exchanged emails with Doc in the past and I for 1 respect him. He isn't hiding behind others sporting claims to greatness and giving heresay about the old days, he was there. He was there with Ed Parker and knows the score.
> 
> This thread has become quite tiresome, so if you want to resolve things with Doc do it on the phone instead of wasting space on a good board with dirty laundry.


 I still haven't recieved a message from Doc
kelly


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## kelly keltner (Jul 14, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I've no idea about how well Mr. Juchnik moves, nor do I particularly care.
> 
> However, I strongly object to the implicit racism in this last post, which calls Ron Chap'el a liar and specifically grounds its reasons for that claim upon his being, "Black."
> 
> ...


Sir ,you should find and read I wrote about what Mr. Juchnik learned from mitose. No MoJo no secrets. Since this will problably fall under the dreaded catagory of the H word (dare I speak it aloud here) hearsay. I would direct you to Bruce for more information from an eyewitness point of view.
kelly


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## GAB (Jul 14, 2004)

To Kelly Keltner, 
Send Doc a personal, 
I think we need to stop and redirect. 
The people on this posting group don't understand or care about the facts or the things that have been pointed out, talk about holding someone or some people as a deity, It is clearly what they are doing with SGMEP, and Doc...  
This is a waste of time and effort. Last but not least it is Pathetic and I mean that from the bottom of my heart..
Regards, Gary


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 14, 2004)

This might be immaterial, but I'm going to ask it anyways, since there are so many learned (albeit hostile) folks on this thread. I went to school with a guy from No Cal who was a black belt in KJKB/Kempo from Al Reyes Jr. Anybody know how old he is? Id he still alive? Does he still teach?

Also, I've seen Mr. Reyes Sr.'s first name spelled out fully as both "Alan", and "Aleju". Any KJKB yudansha in the know about the proper spelling? Or was it just "Al"?

Regards,

D.

PS -- hypertension kills. Breathe deeply, and relax often.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 14, 2004)

In my first post in this thead when I stated, "He isn't hiding behind others sporting claims to greatness and giving heresay about the old days, he was there. He was there with Ed Parker and knows the score."  I was not saying whether or not he was at the tournament in question, I was saying that he was around back in the early days of Kenpo in the US.


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## John Bishop (Jul 14, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> This might be immaterial, but I'm going to ask it anyways, since there are so many learned (albeit hostile) folks on this thread. I went to school with a guy from No Cal who was a black belt in KJKB/Kempo from Al Reyes Jr. Anybody know how old he is? Id he still alive? Does he still teach?
> 
> Also, I've seen Mr. Reyes Sr.'s first name spelled out fully as both "Alan", and "Aleju". Any KJKB yudansha in the know about the proper spelling? Or was it just "Al"?


Grandmaster "Aleju" Reyes died in the late 70's.  Grandmaster "Alan" Reyes is his son.  He is still actively teaching in No. Calif.


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## Seig (Jul 14, 2004)

This thread is now locked.

Seig 
MT Operational Admin


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