# Anyone else use Yao Bu?



## Damien (Sep 1, 2022)

I'm currently working on my latest video, which is proving to be an epic endeavour (hopefully it'll be worth it). It dives into something which I've seen countless times in modern Shaolin, which whilst not wrong (there being a thousand ways to skin a cat...), could certainly be improved upon with a little extra knowledge.

Obviously different styles use different stances and even within styles different teachers will teach things differently, so a question for you all, how many of you use, or have even heard of Yao Bu?

It's something found in Shaolin long fist which I don't see very often, it being distinct from Gong Bu, despite looking similar. It's shorter and the weight distribution is different, but the story gets a bit more complicated than that; hence the video.

So anyone else, in any style ever heard of it?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2022)

Damien said:


> I'm currently working on my latest video, which is proving to be an epic endeavour (hopefully it'll be worth it). It dives into something which I've seen countless times in modern Shaolin, which whilst not wrong (there being a thousand ways to skin a cat...), could certainly be improved upon with a little extra knowledge.
> 
> Obviously different styles use different stances and even within styles different teachers will teach things differently, so a question for you all, how many of you use, or have even heard of Yao Bu?
> 
> ...


Well, it looks akin to what we in Tibetan crane would call an ape step. But you lean into it in a way that we do not; we keep the torso upright and neutral.  

Basically it is a step taken with feet shoulder-width apart, not a terribly long step, with knees slightly bent.  When you throw the punch, the back knee straightens by pressing the foot into the ground and using that to rotate the torso.


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## Damien (Sep 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, it looks akin to what we in Tibetan crane would call an ape step. But you lean into it in a way that we do not; we keep the torso upright and neutral.
> 
> Basically it is a step taken with feet shoulder-width apart, not a terribly long step, with knees slightly bent.  When you throw the punch, the back knee straightens by pressing the foot into the ground and using that to rotate the torso.


Interesting, sounds slightly different, but similar principles. Was just working on this bit, so thought a video would be useful. Should I be worried that this apparently made my garage floor shake enough to move the camera?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 2, 2022)

Damien said:


> Interesting, sounds slightly different, but similar principles. Was just working on this bit, so thought a video would be useful. Should I be worried that this apparently made my garage floor shake enough to move the camera?


Ok, you are using it rather differently than we do.  For us, we step into it  and can punch with either hand from that position and can step either forward or back as much as we want.  Looks like you are using it as more of a transition from a side horse.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 2, 2022)

Just curious, yao/yau has a pretty specific meaning in CMA, especially Shaolin arts (as in the opposite of gong, though not the same gong as in gong gi bu/ji Ng ma, etc.

Were you given a translation?  Is there an online reference you can share so I can compare to my notes and see where this falls in the chang quan?


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## Damien (Sep 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, you are using it rather differently than we do.  For us, we step into it  and can punch with either hand from that position and can step either forward or back as much as we want.  Looks like you are using it as more of a transition from a side horse.


I'm just demonstrating an isolated movement here, you can to it from a more neutral position, but the mechanics are essentially the same. By doing that you can turn it into a running movement. We would only ever do it moving forwards and with the rear hand though.

For front hand or moving backwards we would do something a little different with the stance gong bu, though the final position looks similar.


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## Damien (Sep 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Just curious, yao/yau has a pretty specific meaning in CMA, especially Shaolin arts (as in the opposite of gong, though not the same gong as in gong gi bu/ji Ng ma, etc.
> 
> Were you given a translation?  Is there an online reference you can share so I can compare to my notes and see where this falls in the chang quan?


There are a few translations; shaking step is the literal one 搖步 but it can also be translated as rowing step, or walking step because of the motion of the upper body, or the legs respectively. 

The best I've got in terms of online references would be the stance guide I released recently which talks more about the stance- Shaolin Stance Guide — Kung Fit: Kung Fu and Fitness to stay Fit for Life

The Shaolin Yuzhai channel has videos of forms which show the movement in use (such as the er lu da tong bei quan one), as does my own, but there's nothing else I know of out there, other than a handful of old forum posts mentioning it. Which is why I'm making a video about it and gong bu at the moment. 

From a Shaolin long fist perspective yao bu and gong bu make use of translational movement of your mass to generate power, in slightly different ways. This contrasts with the rotational mechanics which are now more popular. 

It's quite a complicated topic, which I think is why it's not widely known or even taught by people who do know it. I fully expect to enrage a lot of people though

I think it really clears up a lot of things to think of these two approaches to power generation, and understand when one is being misapplied; it doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that there can be a better way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2022)

Damien said:


>


Look like you are using "monkey stance" without bending your back leg that much.

You use bow-arrow stance to punch your opponent. If the distance is a bit too far, you slide in your back foot to gain extra reach.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 2, 2022)

Damien said:


> There are a few translations; shaking step is the literal one 搖步 but it can also be translated as rowing step, or walking step because of the motion of the upper body, or the legs respectively.
> 
> The best I've got in terms of online references would be the stance guide I released recently which talks more about the stance- Shaolin Stance Guide — Kung Fit: Kung Fu and Fitness to stay Fit for Life
> 
> ...


Ok, you learned this as 搖. A Shaolin art under a different name smells as sweet.

柔  (rou in Mandarin/yao in Cantonese/Hakka) is the traditional Shaolin for "soft/supple" and the foundation for several different core Buddhist and Taoist training methods, especially the internal Nei Gong, and an old school Shaolin family tree out of Hong Kong and San Fran (the Yau Kung Mun) that is totally legit.

Given the similarity between "shaking" and "supple", there might be some connection between these, but I'd be interested in native sources if you've found some (like, manuals in Mandarin if you got any).  But for certain, "yao" will mean "soft" in the southern (non-mandarin) Shaolin traditions.

I'll check out your newsletter, don't be surprised if I use a fake name to order it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Damien said:


> I'm currently working on my latest video, which is proving to be an epic endeavour (hopefully it'll be worth it). It dives into something which I've seen countless times in modern Shaolin, which whilst not wrong (there being a thousand ways to skin a cat...), could certainly be improved upon with a little extra knowledge.
> 
> Obviously different styles use different stances and even within styles different teachers will teach things differently, so a question for you all, how many of you use, or have even heard of Yao Bu?
> 
> ...


This seems familiar but I don't if it's the same stance.   I train my techniques at different stance levels and here are a few screenshots from one videos I made of my training. Top part is application concept. The bottom is forms training.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This seems familiar but I don't if it's the same stance.   I train my techniques at different stance levels and here are a few screenshots from one videos I made of my training. Top part is application concept. The bottom is forms training.
> View attachment 28837
> 
> 
> View attachment 28839


The top is one type of Shaolin Wood element fist from Taming the Tiger (Fuk Fu).





The bottom is a right cross, also found in the same form.  There's an interplay here, and I think Damien's stepping shows it well.

Tiger Crane kung fu is a great place to see the interplay between gong (hard) and yao (soft).  In fact, Tiger style suits your body type well, if I do say so myself.  

The key, as always: First, RELAX!  Then, crush your enemy.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The key, as always: First, RELAX! Then, crush your enemy.


Yep. I definitely have a tension issue.  I've been working on though so hopefully it'll get better at it over the next 7months.  RELAX = the hardest thing in Kung Fu for me lol.  The biggest change this time around is that I'm using massages as part of my training.  I finally accepted that sometimes it's necessary to lay hands on the tension.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The top is one type of Shaolin Wood element fist from Taming the Tiger (Fuk Fu).
> 
> View attachment 28841
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 2, 2022)

Here's an application concept pose.


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## Damien (Sep 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Ok, you learned this as 搖. A Shaolin art under a different name smells as sweet.
> 
> 柔  (rou in Mandarin/yao in Cantonese/Hakka) is the traditional Shaolin for "soft/supple" and the foundation for several different core Buddhist and Taoist training methods, especially the internal Nei Gong, and an old school Shaolin family tree out of Hong Kong and San Fran (the Yau Kung Mun) that is totally legit.
> 
> ...


The joys of language eh? I expect a lot of martial arts confusion over the years can be attributed to a lack of clear understanding between Cantonese and Mandarin.

In northern Shaolin there are Rou Quan sets which make use of soft movements. Soft this movement definitely is not; the name is an odd one though. I imagine there is some long lost reason for the name related to an old story, like some styles call pu bu, fu hu bu- taming the tiger stance, based on an old story where someone used it to kill a tiger. Certainly my teacher never gave a good explanation for that particular name.

Unfortunately I don't have any manuals, just a few form poems laying around. My teacher has seen a number in his time, but out in rural areas of Songshan, where scanning and uploading to the internet is not exactly the done thing.


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## Damien (Sep 3, 2022)

It's interesting to see similar ideas popping up in other styles, even if executed slightly differently, shows how many of the same principles are incorporated across CMA. Elsewhere someone pointed out similarity to beng quan in Hebei Xingyi Quan.

All of which makes it more interesting to see it having fallen into disuse in a lot of Songshan Shaolin.

Nearly done on the video, should be up tomorrow


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## Damien (Sep 4, 2022)

And it's finally done and out in the wild. Slightly provocative title, but hey, that's the game right 

The video goes into more detail than I have so far about the differences between Yao Bu and classical Gong Bu within Shaolin, but also looks at what is now called Gong Bu; all three are slightly different, but in significant ways.

It's been interesting to see the same mechanics as Shaolin's Yao Bu popping up, I wonder if anyone's style has gone on a similar journey as much of Shaolin.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 4, 2022)

Damien said:


> The joys of language eh? I expect a lot of martial arts confusion over the years can be attributed to a lack of clear understanding between Cantonese and Mandarin.
> 
> In northern Shaolin there are Rou Quan sets which make use of soft movements. Soft this movement definitely is not; the name is an odd one though. I imagine there is some long lost reason for the name related to an old story, like some styles call pu bu, fu hu bu- taming the tiger stance, based on an old story where someone used it to kill a tiger. Certainly my teacher never gave a good explanation for that particular name.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have any manuals, just a few form poems laying around. My teacher has seen a number in his time, but out in rural areas of Songshan, where scanning and uploading to the internet is not exactly the done thing.


The nice thing about languages is that they aren't ever truly lost lost, not since we discovered how to record and compare them.  I know a little Sanskrit.  A couple words here and there, from a 3,000 year old "dead" language, but it's powerful stuff.

Fu hu bu = 虎鶴 bu, which is Hǔ hè in Mandarin for Tiger Crane.  In the south, Fu Hok.

In the Wu Xing, Fire and Wood.  Perfect elements for kung fu training this time of year, late summer.


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## Damien (Sep 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The nice thing about languages is that they aren't ever truly lost lost, not since we discovered how to record and compare them.  I know a little Sanskrit.  A couple words here and there, from a 3,000 year old "dead" language, but it's powerful stuff.
> 
> Fu hu bu = 虎鶴 bu, which is Hǔ hè in Mandarin for Tiger Crane.  In the south, Fu Hok.
> 
> In the Wu Xing, Fire and Wood.  Perfect elements for kung fu training this time of year, late summer.


Actually 服虎步 Fú Hǔ Bù in Mandarin. I usually can't be bothered with the effort of putting in full pinyin script for something like a forum post, but I really should, given the potential for misunderstanding with a tonal language.


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## clfsean (Sep 6, 2022)

Yes I use it in Ma Family Tongbi Baji Quan, Lama Pai, Choy Li Fut, etc... anytime I'm doing a series of charge stepping forward. In Baji it is the second of the Gangang Bashi. 

Different variations for different styles, but the notion is the same.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Damien said:


> There are a few translations; shaking step is the literal one 搖步 but it can also be translated as rowing step, or walking step because of the motion of the upper body, or the legs respectively.
> 
> The best I've got in terms of online references would be the stance guide I released recently which talks more about the stance- Shaolin Stance Guide — Kung Fit: Kung Fu and Fitness to stay Fit for Life
> 
> ...


Enrage people? Why?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Ok, you learned this as 搖. A Shaolin art under a different name smells as sweet.
> 
> 柔  (rou in Mandarin/yao in Cantonese/Hakka) is the traditional Shaolin for "soft/supple" and the foundation for several different core Buddhist and Taoist training methods, especially the internal Nei Gong, and an old school Shaolin family tree out of Hong Kong and San Fran (the Yau Kung Mun) that is totally legit.
> 
> ...


Howdy oily! How ya been?


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## Damien (Sep 6, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Enrage people? Why?


Well, you'd be surprised. People don't like hearing they don't know something. I got an awful lot of grief after a previous video where I described using Xie Xing as a strike. I was categorically told by a number of people that it was a throw and nothing else...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

As a Chinese, I have never heard the term Yao Bu 搖步. I still don't know what it is.
​


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## Damien (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As a Chinese, I have never heard the term Yao Bu 搖步. I still don't know what it is.
> ​


If you watch the video I posted above it talks about the stance and what distinguishes it from gong bu, at least within Shaolin


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As a Chinese, I have never heard the term Yao Bu 搖步. I still don't know what it is.
> ​


Have you heard of 柔, yao kiu?  This is a very deep Shaolin idea, much deeper than stances and punching bags.  No Mandarin required. ;D


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Damien said:


> Well, you'd be surprised. People don't like hearing they don't know something. I got an awful lot of grief after a previous video where I described using Xie Xing as a strike. I was categorically told by a number of people that it was a throw and nothing else...


Well you won’t hear that from me. To me it’s just all motion. Tell me it’s a block and watch me use it as a strike. Good on you for exploring. You could just use it as such on a resisting opponent and make a video.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Have you heard of 柔, yao kiu?  This is a very deep Shaolin idea, much deeper than stances and punching bags.  No Mandarin required. ;D


Never heard 柔, yao kiu in Taiwan either. It's not in the following list.




1Contemporary wushu stances
1.1Mǎ Bù (馬步)
1.2Gōng Bù (弓步）
1.3Fú Hǔ Bù （伏虎步）
1.4Xuán Jī Bù （玄機步）
1.5Zuò Pán Bù （坐盤步）

2Traditional wushu stances
2.1Sì Liù Bù （四六步）
2.2Jin Ji Du Li （金雞獨立）
2.3Tūn Bù （吞步）
2.4Qi Lin Bu （麒麟步）


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Have you heard of 柔, yao kiu?  This is a very deep Shaolin idea, much deeper than stances and punching bags.  No Mandarin required. ;D


These posts are why I missed you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Never heard 柔, yao kiu in Taiwan either. It's not in the following list.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yau kiu isn’t a stance.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Never heard 柔, yao kiu in Taiwan either. It's not in the following list.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry Yao Kiu


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Never heard 柔, yao kiu in Taiwan either. It's not in the following list.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All apologies, I don’t know the Chinese names. Can you translate those for me please. thank you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Damien said:


> Well, you'd be surprised. People don't like hearing they don't know something. I got an awful lot of grief after a previous video where I described using Xie Xing as a strike. I was categorically told by a number of people that it was a throw and nothing else...


Was that on this forum?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yau kiu isn’t a stance.


If it's dynamic step (not static stance), it still needs to be transfered from 1 stance into another stance. So if the starting point is a bow arrow stance then what's the ending stance?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> All apologies, I don’t know the Chinese names. Can you translate those for me please. thank you.



1Contemporary wushu stances
1.1Mǎ Bù (馬步)
1.2Gōng Bù (弓步）
1.3Fú Hǔ Bù （伏虎步）
1.4Xuán Jī Bù （玄機步）
1.5Zuò Pán Bù （坐盤步）

2Traditional wushu stances
2.1Sì Liù Bù （四六步）
2.2Jin Ji Du Li （金雞獨立）
2.3Tūn Bù （吞步）
2.4Qi Lin Bu （麒麟步）

1. Horse stance
2. Bow arrow stance
3. Striking tiger stance
4. Empty stance
5. Twisting stance
6. 4-6 stance
7. Golden rooster stance
8. 7 stars stance
9. Monkey stance


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If it's dynamic step (not static stance), it still need to be transfer from 1 stance into another stance. So if the starting point is a bow_arrow stance then what's the ending stance?


I don’t know. Let’s pose that question to Damien. I have guesses but I’m simply out of my depth when we talk using Cantonese or Mandarin.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1Contemporary wushu stances
> 1.1Mǎ Bù (馬步)
> 1.2Gōng Bù (弓步）
> 1.3Fú Hǔ Bù （伏虎步）
> ...


Thank you very much.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Never heard 柔, yao kiu in Taiwan either. It's not in the following list.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's the squeezing between the Gong (hard) Fist, and Yao (soft) fist in One Finger Zen formation, that makes the Yao really stand out in a crowd.

Also, Wood element. 相生. 震


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's the squeezing between the Gong (hard) Fist, and Yao (soft) fist in One Finger Zen formation, that makes the Yao really stand out in a crowd.
> 
> Also, Wood element. 相生. 震
> 
> View attachment 28857


That look like a horse stance to me. What's the weight distributation?

- 30/70?
- 40/60?
- 50/50?

Are both feet completely on the ground?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's the squeezing between the Gong (hard) Fist, and Yao (soft) fist in One Finger Zen formation, that makes the Yao really stand out in a crowd.
> 
> Also, Wood element. 相生. 震
> 
> View attachment 28857





Oily Dragon said:


> It's the squeezing between the Gong (hard) Fist, and Yao (soft) fist in One Finger Zen formation, that makes the Yao really stand out in a crowd.
> 
> Also, Wood element. 相生. 震
> 
> View attachment 28857


It’s not really “soft” more like supple or wrapping if I understand correctly.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That look like a horse stance to me. What's the weight distributation?
> 
> - 30/70?
> - 40/60?
> ...


Yes.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 6, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It’s not really “soft” more like supple or wrapping if I understand correctly.


It's right there in the hanzi, truly.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2022)

Damien said:


> Well, you'd be surprised. People don't like hearing they don't know something. I got an awful lot of grief after a previous video where I described using Xie Xing as a strike. I was categorically told by a number of people that it was a throw and nothing else...


Gone are the days where a person says "kung fu technique does this"  Sometimes you just have to show how it works through application.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Was that on this forum?


It's probably from the kung fu world.  Accepting a new application for an existing technique can be "fighting words."  The reason is that you have teachers and "masters" who have taught things and have in their mind that they know everything, so anything new from someone who knows less hurts their ego.  Not all of them are like that, but there are some out there who have that attitude where someone who knows less can't "teach the teacher."    They do not believe in "Student learns from teacher and sometimes Teacher learns from student."  

I've been personally chewed out by a kung fu teacher who told me I didn't know what I was talking about when it comes to low stance and then he went on his rant about his coaching experience .  It can be brutal at times.  The best way I've found to deal with this is to simple show the application.  Find a sparring partner and do the actual technique in sparring.  If you can do that then you shut down a lot of nonsense.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1Contemporary wushu stances
> 1.1Mǎ Bù (馬步)
> 1.2Gōng Bù (弓步）
> 1.3Fú Hǔ Bù （伏虎步）
> ...


Oh so that's the Unicorn Stance.  I always wondered about that stance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh so that's the Unicorn Stance.  I always wondered about that stance.


It's also called monkey stance.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's probably from the kung fu world.  Accepting a new application for an existing technique can be "fighting words."  The reason is that you have teachers and "masters" who have taught things and have in their mind that they know everything, so anything new from someone who knows less hurts their ego.  Not all of them are like that, but there are some out there who have that attitude where someone who knows less can't "teach the teacher."    They do not believe in "Student learns from teacher and sometimes Teacher learns from student."
> 
> I've been personally chewed out by a kung fu teacher who told me I didn't know what I was talking about when it comes to low stance and then he went on his rant about his coaching experience .  It can be brutal at times.  The best way I've found to deal with this is to simple show the application.  Find a sparring partner and do the actual technique in sparring.  If you can do that then you shut down a lot of nonsense.


I have learned as much from my students as much as anything else. I am grateful for my opportunity to teach them because they have taught me so much. They can pose questions I never thought of. They help to continue learning and growing. I have one who is already eclipsing me in several parts of the workout. He makes me so proud because he started martial arts training with me about 6 or 7 years ago.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh so that's the Unicorn Stance.  I always wondered about that stance.


Even though my Sigung was Chinese he would tell us we don’t need to know the Chinese names because we don’t live there and we aren’t able to speak cantonese anyway. I do wish I had learned it though.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's right there in the hanzi, truly.


Am I incorrect? You are the expert in this arena, I defer to your definition. I want to know I understand that correctly or do not. I use it and can do it, but I am generally somebody that can do more than I understand.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> don’t need to know the Chinese names ...


This is why we may still don't know what Yao Bu is.

To use the Chinese name, sometime it may cause more confusing. For example the Chinese wrestling "inner hook" is called "得合 De He". 95% of the Chinese won't know what's the meaning of "得合 De He" because it's Mongolian name.

Even use the Chinese names, many instructors still use it wrong.

For example:

Correct - Taiji "well fed tiger move back to mountain" (饱 Bao).
Wrong - Taiji "carry tiger back to mountain" (抱 Bao).

The same pronunciation "饱 Bao" and "抱 Bao" has been used by the wrong word. It makes no logic sense that anyone would want to carry a tiger back to mountain.

Correct - Taiji "Shoulder extend to arm" (肩).
Wrong - Taiji "Move arm like fan" (扇).

2 Chinese characters 肩 and 扇 look alike in written and were mis-used by many Taiji teachers.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Even though my Sigung was Chinese he would tell us we don’t need to know the Chinese names because we don’t live there and we aren’t able to speak cantonese anyway. I do wish I had learned it though.


You can still learn.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> You can still learn.


If you know what a 'inner hook" is, why do you want to learn the chinese name "得合 De He", or the Japanese name "大内刈 Ouchi Gari"?

To learn an extra Mongolian word, or an extra Japanese word will have little meaning to my training.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Even use the Chinese term, many instructors still use it wrong.


I totally agree with this. I know my school butchered the language.  Trying to repeat what is heard vs Trying to repeat what is heard when someone is there to correct errors.  If we said a term incorrectly then it just got worse because no one was there to correct us.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Am I incorrect? You are the expert in this arena, I defer to your definition. I want to know I understand that correctly or do not. I use it and can do it, but I am generally somebody that can do more than I understand.


It depends on where you find it, like KFW pointed out. 

Every little hanzi is actually a composite of several indie scriptural themes.  In the southern traditions, you have gong, yao, bik, jik, fan,etc corresponding to hard, soft, sending, crowding, sending, splitting.  

The yao (Cantonese for soft, supple) concept is differentiated from gong (hard) in the same way yin and yang are (in fact, gong is yang, yao is yin), but in practice since you are doing these movements isotonically in the fist sets, it's never 100% one or the other.  There are a bunch of kuen poems about this along the lines of "hard but not too hard, soft but not too soft".

The Yao step (bu) from changquan probably isn't related to the southern Yao (southern Shaolin bridge), but I was curious if there was a connection.  Doesn't seem to be a lot of material out there on the Yao Bu (as Damien pointed out, often this stuff is just taught as-is the way it was passed down).


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 7, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I totally agree with this. I know my school butchered the language.  Trying to repeat what is heard vs Trying to repeat what is heard when someone is there to correct errors.  If we said a term incorrectly then it just got worse because no one was there to correct us.


Now you understand why I stay up late at night studying 1,000 year old Asian symbols, alongside the styles themselves.

The challenge!

Honestly, most native Chinese speakers won't know what the hell you're talking about even if you pronounce it perfectly.

"Kung Fu slang" is how my first sifu described it.  He's the furthest thing from Chinese, but you spend 40+ years correcting yourself, you should make progress.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It depends on where you find it, like KFW pointed out.
> 
> Every little hanzi is actually a composite of several indie scriptural themes.  In the southern traditions, you have gong, yao, bik, jik, fan,etc corresponding to hard, soft, sending, crowding, sending, splitting.
> 
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why we may still don't know what Yao Bu is.
> 
> To use the Chinese name, sometime it may cause more confusing. For example the Chinese wrestling "inner hook" is called "得合 De He". 95% of the Chinese won't know what's the meaning of "得合 De He" because it's Mongolian name.
> 
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thank you!


You're welcome.

I was reading the other thread and remembering how many silly tiffs I've waded into with kung Fu students over pronunciation.  Which is why when you ask if you're wrong, my general response is going to be "na".  It takes time and effort to figure this stuff out, just like actually learning a foreign language.  First time i said "hanzee" instead of "hanza" to a pretty Hakka girl, I felt so stupid until I corrected myself and her eyes lit up with recognition.

Like, Siu Nim vs Siu Lim.  Same exact thing one is mainstream Cantonese, the other is southern Min native to specific areas of Fujian, Taiwan etc.

But try telling that to a rabid Wing Chun lunatic whose first language was English.  Talk about an empty your cup situation.  I've been lectured so many times (by students, not teachers).  I got used to checking my answers .  No offense intended to rabid Wing Chun crowd, btw.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> I was reading the other thread and remembering how many silly tiffs I've waded into with kung Fu students over pronunciation.  Which is why when you ask if you're wrong, my general response is going to be "na".  It takes time and effort to figure this stuff out, just like actually learning a foreign language.  First time i said "hanzee" instead of "hanza" to a pretty Hakka girl, I felt so stupid until I corrected myself and her eyes lit up with recognition.
> 
> ...


I appreciate these things more than words can express. Thanks again. Often, when I would question whether I was doing something correctly, my Sifu would say “don’t worry if you are right or wrong, you are wrong”. So I just assume I’m wrong and look for the right, easier that way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> “don’t worry if you are right or wrong, you are wrong”.


There is no right or wrong, but trade off.

Will you steal

- $100? Of course not.
- a country if you have the opportunity? Of course you will.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you know what a 'inner hook" is, why do you want to learn the chinese name "得合 De He", or the Japanese name "大内刈 Ouchi Gari"?
> 
> To learn an extra Mongolian word, or an extra Japanese word will have little meaning to my training.


Some teacher see it as being Authentic and other teacher see it as a cultural exchange, where they want students to know and follow some aspects of Chinese culture related to martial arts.  Beyond that, it's not intended to help with the actual training.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I appreciate these things more than words can express. Thanks again. Often, when I would question whether I was doing something correctly, my Sifu would say “don’t worry if you are right or wrong, you are wrong”. So I just assume I’m wrong and look for the right, easier that way.


We both live in an age when everyone argues about everything, but kung fu?  Forget about it.

Watch this, there are a couple really good examples of Shaolin Yao in this intro.  Note the repetitions.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 7, 2022)

Hey, I was able to dig up a Yao Kiu demo that kind of supports Damien's video.  This is a Hung Kuen school in Canada, but the soft/supple/groovy bridge is on full display.

to become soft, as opposed to being soft, and then being hard.  









						Yao Kiu/ soft bridge. | Yao Kiu / Soft bridge  软桥 | By Canadian Hung Kuen Association | Facebook
					

८७ views, ८ likes, ० loves, ० comments, ० shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Canadian Hung Kuen Association: Yao Kiu / Soft bridge  软桥




					ne-np.facebook.com


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Hey, I was able to dig up a Yao Kiu demo that kind of supports Damien's video.  This is a Hung Kuen school in Canada, but the soft/supple/groovy bridge is on full display.
> 
> to become soft, as opposed to being soft, and then being hard.
> 
> ...


I'm on the fence about those type of demos.   I think for the most part they are only good for concept discussions and concept training.  If you had to actually find something that supports a concept then it will need to be done in application.,,

I'm not saying it's an unnecessary thing. For me it's more like an incomplete thing.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 7, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm on the fence about those type of demos.   I think for the most part they are only good for concept discussions and concept training.  If you had to actually find something that supports a concept then it will need to be done in application.,,
> 
> I'm not saying it's an unnecessary thing. For me it's more like an incomplete thing.


That's ok.

I stay on the fence for every demo, doesn't matter the art.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Hey, I was able to dig up a Yao Kiu demo that kind of supports Damien's video.  This is a Hung Kuen school in Canada, but the soft/supple/groovy bridge is on full display.
> 
> to become soft, as opposed to being soft, and then being hard.
> 
> ...


It's just a general strategy. It's no different than this clip.

- Your opponent attacks you.
- You use stealing step to move yourself out of the attacking path, and
- lead your opponent into the emptiness.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> We both live in an age when everyone argues about everything, but kung fu?  Forget about it.
> 
> Watch this, there are a couple really good examples of Shaolin Yao in this intro.  Note the repetitions.


With a super size of drama. Making a face, any face, could get you snapped at by the Sifu. Rocking back and forth will not gain points either. otherwise, great demo!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm on the fence about those type of demos.   I think for the most part they are only good for concept discussions and concept training.  If you had to actually find something that supports a concept then it will need to be done in application.,,
> 
> I'm not saying it's an unnecessary thing. For me it's more like an incomplete thing.


Well to be honest it’s a conditioning exercise as much as a technique. Because you will do it 10,000 times before you can use it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's ok.
> 
> I stay on the fence for every demo, doesn't matter the art.


It was an example, I’m amazed you could find one at all.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's just a general strategy. It's no different than this clip.
> 
> - Your opponent attacks you.
> - You use stealing step to move yourself out of the attacking path, and
> - lead your opponent into the emptiness.


Yes, it goes back to my old trope, it is all just motion. Strong foundational basics are what really matter. If a man doesn’t have balance, posture, and coordination, then they can’t do anything anyway.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yes, it goes back to my old trope, it is all just motion. Strong foundational basics are what rhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVN2dmsLxgYeally matter. If a man doesn’t have balance, posture, and coordination, then they can’t do anything anyway.


May be in the Hung system, if you use striking skill, you use hard posture. If you use wrestling skill, you use soft posture.

The Hung system used to be one of the long fist system in the north China (Cha, Hua, Hung, Tan, Pao). After the Hung system had been moved to the south China, the Hung has been changed and may look different from the rest of the long fist system. The Hung may include some southern CMA principles, and no longer be a pure northern CMA system any more.

Cha Quan:






Hua Quan:






Tan Tui:






Pao Quan:


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be in the Hung system, if you use striking skill, you use hard posture. If you use wrestling skill, you use soft posture.
> 
> The Hung system used to be one of the long fist system in the north China (Cha, Hua, Hung, Tan, Pao). After the Hung system had been moved to the south China, the Hung has been changed and may look different from the rest of the long fist system. The Hung may include some southern CMA principles, and no longer be a pure northern CMA system any more.
> 
> ...


True , my Sigung trained Hung Gar in Canton around the mid 1930s. Anything I know of it comes directly from there. Same with my Yang long Tai Chi Chuan and Mok Gar etc. our system is the melding of those and more that were in Canton from1929 to 1941.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be in the Hung system, if you use striking skill, you use hard posture. If you use wrestling skill, you use soft posture.
> 
> The Hung system used to be one of the long fist system in the north China (Cha, Hua, Hung, Tan, Pao). After the Hung system had been moved to the south China, the Hung has been changed and may look different from the rest of the long fist system. The Hung may include some southern CMA principles, and no longer be a pure northern CMA system any more.
> 
> ...


Not so much hard and soft for me, more internal cannot be felt without external. Soft sounds collapsed. Like southern mantis Tong Long Pai, Sifu Woo trained in it. He complained of the curved back “ you can train any handicap to proficiency”. Similar to the lisp in a certain region in Spain, people speak that way because the king had a speech impedimen, so it became the tradition. I don’t mean to say wrestling is collapsed at all. I mean the language and definitions we use might be different for similar concepts. Especially because I am ignorant to Cantonese. My apologies if I misunderstand.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Soft sounds collapsed.


When I say 

- soft, I mean yield, stick, join, and follow.
- hard, I mean force against force.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> lead your opponent into the emptiness.


I've been to emptiness before, I don't like that place lol.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 8, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be in the Hung system, if you use striking skill, you use hard posture. If you use wrestling skill, you use soft posture.
> 
> The Hung system used to be one of the long fist system in the north China (Cha, Hua, Hung, Tan, Pao). After the Hung system had been moved to the south China, the Hung has been changed and may look different from the rest of the long fist system. The Hung may include some southern CMA principles, and no longer be a pure northern CMA system any more.


Because Hung (hong/red/flood) fist, "village Hung kuen", and Hung Ga Kuen are not quite the same, but there is a historical path between them.  Hung Ga schools teach a lot more than the others.

Hung hei gun is the legendary "founder" basically Hung Kuen's version of Ng Mui.  Those arts spread travelled south.  But all modern Hung _Ga_ schools derive from the Wong Fei Hung lineage (no relation that I know of).  Fei Hung created the modern system, which is basically a mashup of Shaolin Qigong, animal styles, Daoist elemental philosophy, medicine, and common weapons.

The Yao Kiu, by the way, is practiced using Yee gi kim yeurng ma in advanced Lam Family and intro Dang Fong family training (funny that), in a squeezing sense (hence Wood element).  So it's not really soft in the literal sense, though the hand with single finger chan is a little more relaxed than the other fist.  So you get that lower body YGKYM adduction but also the upper body torso/pecs.  So I agree with what you said about grappling.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 8, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be in the Hung system, if you use striking skill, you use hard posture. If you use wrestling skill, you use soft posture.
> 
> The Hung system used to be one of the long fist system in the north China (Cha, Hua, Hung, Tan, Pao). After the Hung system had been moved to the south China, the Hung has been changed and may look different from the rest of the long fist system. The Hung may include some southern CMA principles, and no longer be a pure northern CMA system any more.
> 
> ...





JowGaWolf said:


> I've been to emptiness before, I don't like that place lol.


I think Thulsa Doom (James Earl Jones) said it in the 1980 Conan the barbarian movie. ”Who among you is ready to embrace emptiness”


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 8, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've been to emptiness before, I don't like that place lol.


To lead your opponent into the emptiness usually means to let your opponent to kiss the dirt. It also means you and your opponent switch places. You let your opponent to take over your place while you take over his place.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To lead your opponent into the emptiness usually means to let your opponent to kiss the dirt.


Nothing wrecks a plan like thinking something is going to be there only for it to be nothing and then hitting the ground.


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## Damien (Sep 8, 2022)

Crikey a lot happened since I last checked!



Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well you won’t hear that from me. To me it’s just all motion. Tell me it’s a block and watch me use it as a strike. Good on you for exploring. You could just use it as such on a resisting opponent and make a video.





Wing Woo Gar said:


> Was that on this forum?





JowGaWolf said:


> Gone are the days where a person says "kung fu technique does this"  Sometimes you just have to show how it works through application.


No it was on another forum. I said about how I regularly used the technique (in a different way) in sparring and they were essentially like "no, its still not a strike, just because you use it as one, doesn't mean it is one"

I mean it's dumb because most Shaolin practitioners teach it as a strike! Some people have drank a little too much of the everything is a throw Kool-Aid.  Sure somethings are, but doesn't mean they aren't other things too. 

One guy even tried an appeal to authority to prove the application I was talking about was wrong, saying a highly respected master had told him it was a throw, and I was like yeah, nice try, but the guy who you're name dropping is the one that taught this specific application of this move!



Oily Dragon said:


> The yao (Cantonese for soft, supple) concept is differentiated from gong (hard) in the same way yin and yang are (in fact, gong is yang, yao is yin), but in practice since you are doing these movements isotonically in the fist sets, it's never 100% one or the other.  There are a bunch of kuen poems about this along the lines of "hard but not too hard, soft but not too soft".
> 
> The Yao step (bu) from changquan probably isn't related to the southern Yao (southern Shaolin bridge), but I was curious if there was a connection.  Doesn't seem to be a lot of material out there on the Yao Bu (as Damien pointed out, often this stuff is just taught as-is the way it was passed down).



So Yao Kui in Mandarin would be Róu Qiáo, so a different concept that Yao Bu. 搖 as opposed to 柔, shaking rather than soft. It's an odd name. Of course characters being what they are, it could also be sway, twist, rotate, brandish, astound.... but my teacher learnt it from his teacher, Cui Xiqi as shaking, and he's generally considered one of the greats of his time. But as I've mentioned before, literacy is not exactly a pre-requisite for being a good martial artist, and they have the same tone and character, so at some point in the past someone may have just got confused! So it's likely that the name got changed over time. Yáo Bù as twisting or rotating step would make more sense in the context and help to distinguish it from Gōng Bù.

Northern Shaolin does have similar principles of softness and hardness in balance though. For example if your hard strike misses and you over extend, you collapse your body into them to give you the opportunity to recover. And there's the basic ideas like straight but not straight, move backwards to go forwards etc, all with that idea of multiple directions or approaches being linked.

We don't practice the same standing work you see in some southern styles though, such as the posture @Oily Dragon showed. Northern and Southern Shaolin are really completely different styles, though of course everything has parallels when you're talking applying body mechanics. Styles with the same or similar names are another cause for mass confusion amongst the kung fu community! I mean there are so many different Hong/Hung styles out there, but they're not all related. A poor grasp of language, attribution to legendary/historical characters and myth learnt as history have a lot of explaining to do!


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 9, 2022)

Damien said:


> *Northern and Southern Shaolin are really completely different styles*, though of course everything has parallels when you're talking applying body mechanics.


Your post rocked except for this.  Oh, thems fighting words...

"completely"?  No.  In fact, only Sith deal in absolutes....


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I think Thulsa Doom (James Earl Jones) said it in the 1980 Conan the barbarian movie. ”Who among you is ready to embrace emptiness”


He was prepping his culties for war..invoking Set.

But Conan's emptiness is paramount, though.  He lost Valeria to Vahalla and remains alone in the world, a king by his own hand.  Worthless.


----------



## Damien (Sep 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Your post rocked except for this.  Oh, thems fighting words...
> 
> "completely"?  No.  In fact, only Sith deal in absolutes....


Hahaha, OK, you caught me. My real name is Darth Damien.

OK, not completely, most CMA has links, but northern and southern are different in flavour. It's pretty well established that the southern temple was a myth. That's not to say that there were not temples with fighting monks all over China, and that that they didn't have exchanges, but they weren't all linked to the one on Songshan.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 9, 2022)

Damien said:


> Hahaha, OK, you caught me. My real name is Darth Damien.
> 
> OK, not completely, most CMA has links, but northern and southern are different in flavour. It's pretty well established that the southern temple was a myth. That's not to say that there were not temples with fighting monks all over China, and that that they didn't have exchanges, but they weren't all linked to the one on Songshan.


The southern temple is a metaphor and southern China is covered in Shaolin lore and influence.  And Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Thailand, Japan...erm Great Britain, America, Brazil...

The stances are identical, so are the animal motifs.  Bodhidharma, too.

Iron wire, dude.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2022)

Damien said:


> No it was on another forum. I said about how I regularly used the technique (in a different way) in sparring and they were essentially like "no, its still not a strike, just because you use it as one, doesn't mean it is one"
> 
> I mean it's dumb because most Shaolin practitioners teach it as a strike! Some people have drank a little too much of the everything is a throw Kool-Aid. Sure somethings are, but doesn't mean they aren't other things too.
> 
> One guy even tried an appeal to authority to prove the application I was talking about was wrong, saying a highly respected master had told him it was a throw, and I was like yeah, nice try, but the guy who you're name dropping is the one that taught this specific application of this move!


Oh ok. yeah "It's still not a strike, just because you use it as one, doesn't mean it is one." Yep. that's dumb, and there are people who are like that. Even if Shaolin practitioners don't teach it that way, if you find another application of a technique that works, then it's valid..  One of the common things about Martial Arts is that sometimes techniques have more than application for the same movement.  The correct answer that guy should have given should have been.   "Oh I didn't know you could use it as a strike too."  

There's no way to have a good martial arts discussion with people like that.  They aren't willing to learn, so anything outside of their box doesn't exists.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh ok. yeah "It's still not a strike,


Which move are you talking about?

A hook punch can be a head lock. The difference is whether your try to create the 2nd contact point or not. If you have no intentin to create the 2nd contact point, a head lock is only a hook punch.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which move are you talking about?
> 
> A hook punch can be a head lock. The difference is whether your try to create the 2nd contact point or not. If you have no intentin to create the 2nd contact point, a head lock is only a hook punch.


I was referring to what someone told Damien that a block could only be a block even when someone uses it as a strike.  Some people only think that a technique/ movement can only be one thing and inky for one use.  People who think like that are difficult to share martial arts with.


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## Damien (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The southern temple is a metaphor and southern China is covered in Shaolin lore and influence.  And Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Thailand, Japan...erm Great Britain, America, Brazil...
> 
> The stances are identical, so are the animal motifs.  Bodhidharma, too.
> 
> Iron wire, dude.


The whole of the country is covered in Shaolin lore. Shaolin was hugely famous and influential, certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that it is unlikely there is a direct link between what is commonly seen as southern Shaolin styles and Northern ones. That doesn't make it any less valid, or real. Things in Northern Shaolin came from elsewhere as well as being "home grown", and any practices they have almost certainly didn't come from Bodhidharma.

Pretty much all of the commonly accepted history of Shaolin is fake beyond the broadest of brush strokes when you actually get down to the real records, but these being myths doesn't invalidate the art.

The first half of this video talks about Shaolin lore in southern styles- 




The same stances appear in a lot of styles, and the whole animal thing is massively over played with Northern Shaolin these days. Animal iconography is used to name some techniques and postures, but the whole crane, snake, monkey, leopard etc. styles, it's all just modern performance stuff. Old Northern Shaolin is not animal imitating at all. You see some forms called tiger something, but they are not imitating tigers. There's Monkey Rooster and Snake Qi Xing Quan too, but again they aren't specifically imitating these animals.

China has a long history with much movement of people. As such there are many shared cultural ideas and so you see similar things popping up all over the place in terms of naming.

But all that is the doctor of Archaeology talking. Ultimately it doesn't matter what any style is called, where it comes from, how it names things or anything, all that matters is that you have fun training it and it delivers what you are looking for out of a martial art, so I'll go shut up!


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## Flying Crane (Sep 12, 2022)

Damien said:


> The whole of the country is covered in Shaolin lore. Shaolin was hugely famous and influential, certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that it is unlikely there is a direct link between what is commonly seen as southern Shaolin styles and Northern ones. That doesn't make it any less valid, or real. Things in Northern Shaolin came from elsewhere as well as being "home grown", and any practices they have almost certainly didn't come from Bodhidharma.
> 
> Pretty much all of the commonly accepted history of Shaolin is fake beyond the broadest of brush strokes when you actually get down to the real records, but these being myths doesn't invalidate the art.
> 
> ...


I agree with your assessment here about the animal styles.  As someone who practices an animal style (Tibetan white crane) what parts of the system that might be considered imitative of the bird is minimal if any.  Yes, there is an inspiration and an identity that was taken from the animal, and that simply influences how the method is trained.  But it is not about trying to imitate the animal, nor to “become like” the animal.  We most certainly do not run around flapping our arms like wings, nor fight from a one-legged stance, pecking with our fingertips.  By far, our most common hand shape is a closed fist. 

I sometimes come across websites where people try to connect all these imitative traits and qualities to the five animals and such.  They come up with these odd (in my opinion) descriptions about what qualities a certain animal will instill in the practitioners, and how X animal is best when attacking against Y animal, but defends better vs. Z animal.  It strikes me as utter nonsense, someone tried to make something mystical and deep, out of nothing.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Damien said:


> The whole of the country is covered in Shaolin lore. Shaolin was hugely famous and influential, certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that it is unlikely there is a direct link between what is commonly seen as southern Shaolin styles and Northern ones. That doesn't make it any less valid, or real. Things in Northern Shaolin came from elsewhere as well as being "home grown", and any practices they have almost certainly didn't come from Bodhidharma.
> 
> Pretty much all of the commonly accepted history of Shaolin is fake beyond the broadest of brush strokes when you actually get down to the real records, but these being myths doesn't invalidate the art.
> 
> ...


I have heard so many conflicting stories on north and south, temple boxing, or otherwise. Sifu Woo had some funny things to say about it. He said the temples were just havens for bandits and criminals, and now is just a tourist trap with the monks having become performers of tricks and acrobatics. I have no actual knowledge of these things. They are inconsequential to my training. My system is a family system so we don’t have a ton of Shaolin influence. T.Y. Wong was one of my Sigungs training contemporaries, he had some Shaolin long fist.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

I'm gonna block quote you but don't freak out.

I don't like to do this sort of thing (long block quote dissections of other people's words, I consider them a sort of Web STD), but I value your understanding of Shaolin concepts (regardless of what you've trained so far), so I'm trying to educate you and everyone else further, because trust me, almost everything I know about Shaolin I learned from training for real, and fact checking with actual research by scientists, including peer reviewed journals.  I've done a lot of homework like you have, I just don't make videos.

Let's begin!


Damien said:


> The whole of the country is covered in Shaolin lore. Shaolin was hugely famous and influential, certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that it is unlikely there is a direct link between what is commonly seen as southern Shaolin styles and Northern ones. That doesn't make it any less valid, or real. Things in Northern Shaolin came from elsewhere as well as being "home grown", and any practices they have almost certainly didn't come from Bodhidharma.


It's more complicated than even that, but there are many direct links in the form of individual people, what they trained, and what they became known for in history (vs. legend).  The Chan tradition is not wholly separate from what most probably learned as "Northern Shaolin", and it's what I actually study/live/breathe.  So when you say "practices" didn't come from Bodhidharma, that's a tough sell for me.  I have entire books devoted to Bodhidharma scriptures, those inform my actual kung fu training, not limited to Shaolin stuff.

He was, though, retroactively associated with the temple many, many years after his death.  The Shaolin were known to do this often.  In the same way, certain weapons associated with Buddhism became the iconic Shaolin staff methods (which I also study, because there are few things more authentic).

One funny thing about Kung Fu in general, is that some of the people weren't real, might have been real, or were definitely real.  This is also a problem with historical science, eh?  Yet someone these transmissions reach us even in the 22nd century.


Damien said:


> Pretty much all of the *commonly accepted* history of Shaolin is fake beyond the broadest of brush strokes when you actually get down to the real records, but these being myths doesn't invalidate the art.


"common" means the man on the street.  So what they say about Shaolin, who cares.  These are the same people late night talk show hosts flame on the streets because they answer "Canada" to questions like "What was the 50th state"?

A lot of what the common person believes about Shaolin is actually true (e.g., they have badass athletic skills, they fought in battles, the temple was an epicenter of Daoist and Buddhist martial arts, etc).

If you read any scholar (historian, etc) on Shaolin-based martial arts (Mahar, etc.) you'll find the same themes, and that a lot of the craziest sounding stuff is true.


Damien said:


> The first half of this video talks about Shaolin lore in southern styles-


I'll watch the video for sure, but it might need its own thread.  A lot of Youtube videos are full of BS, especially kung fu ones.  You know it 

I'm sure you'll agree, you have to do your own homework with this topic!


Damien said:


> The same stances appear in a lot of styles, and the whole animal thing is massively over played with Northern Shaolin these days. Animal iconography is used to name some techniques and postures, but *the whole crane, snake, monkey, leopard etc. styles, it's all just modern performance stuff*. Old Northern Shaolin is not animal imitating at all. You see some forms called tiger something, but they are not imitating tigers. There's Monkey Rooster and Snake Qi Xing Quan too, but again they aren't specifically imitating these animals.


This part is not true.   There is about 1500 years of Shaolin writing, the animals are all in there, dude.  SO are the Wu Xing elements.  It's all tied into TCM, too.

You might have discovered one of the major issues with the entire process of trying to learn Shaolin kung fu.  It's NOT just about hitting things.


Damien said:


> China has a long history with much movement of people. As such there are many shared cultural ideas and so you see similar things popping up all over the place in terms of naming.
> 
> But all that is the doctor of Archaeology talking. Ultimately it doesn't matter what any style is called, where it comes from, how it names things or anything, all that matters is that you have fun training it and it delivers what you are looking for out of a martial art, so I'll go shut up!


I see you, dude.

This is more a matter of anthropology.  And according to Chan itself (or Daoism for that matteR) there is no "northern" or "southern" shaolin.  It's all one diaspora, like the lotus flower (see: the Buddha)

Look into Leung Kwan, one of the most important Shaolin martial arts figures of the last 200 years.  Wasn't even an ordained monk.  Apparently once, he bumped into a kid and taught him all sorts of Shaolin technique that he himself had been given by hanging out with all sorts of Buddhist monks his whole life.  That kid became, arguably, China's greatest martial arts hero.  And it wasn't Ip Man.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I agree with your assessment here about the animal styles.  As someone who practices an animal style (Tibetan white crane) what parts of the system that might be considered imitative of the bird is minimal if any.  Yes, there is an inspiration and an identity that was taken from the animal, and that simply influences how the method is trained.  But it is not about trying to imitate the animal, nor to “become like” the animal.  We most certainly do not run around flapping our arms like wings, nor fight from a one-legged stance, pecking with our fingertips.  By far, our most common hand shape is a closed fist.
> 
> I sometimes come across websites where people try to connect all these imitative traits and qualities to the five animals and such.  They come up with these odd (in my opinion) descriptions about what qualities a certain animal will instill in the practitioners, and how X animal is best when attacking against Y animal, but defends better vs. Z animal.  It strikes me as utter nonsense, someone tried to make something mystical and deep, out of nothing.


It's pretty simple: you train kung fu to become as efficient a human animal as possible.  Humans fight like tigers all the time, but only if they're good at it.






"Watch other animals", because they don't think about this stuff all day, they just know themselves.  They don't sit around getting fat all day posting about martial arts, for sure!


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I have heard so many conflicting stories on north and south, temple boxing, or otherwise. Sifu Woo had some funny things to say about it. He said the temples were just havens for bandits and criminals, and now is just a tourist trap with the monks having become performers of tricks and acrobatics. I have no actual knowledge of these things. They are inconsequential to my training. My system is a family system so we don’t have a ton of Shaolin influence. T.Y. Wong was one of my Sigungs training contemporaries, he had some Shaolin long fist.


One of the first things I had to deal with when starting kung fu, was this issue.  SO I made a rule, "fact check everything sifu says".  My personal rate was not too shabby, YMMV.

Both the "everything comes from Shaolin!!!!", and the wrong things your Sifu Woo said (ie sifu opining).  A lot of sifus get stuff wrong (please don't attack me, Wing Chun mafia).

The modern Shaolin Si is all of these things.  Chan study center, martial arts physical fitness gym, 1500 year old historical museum, and tourist center (wouldn't call it a trap, everyone wants to go there).  Kung Fu Disneyworld!


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sifu Woo had some funny things to say about it. He said the temples were just havens for bandits and criminals


I have heard that to about those places being a place where criminals could seek safety.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> One of the first things I had to deal with when starting kung fu, was this issue.  SO I made a rule, "fact check everything sifu says".  My personal rate was not too shabby, YMMV.
> 
> Both the "everything comes from Shaolin!!!!", and the wrong things your Sifu Woo said (ie sifu opining).  A lot of sifus get stuff wrong (please don't attack me, Wing Chun mafia).
> 
> The modern Shaolin Si is all of these things.  Chan study center, martial arts physical fitness gym, 1500 year old historical museum, and tourist center (wouldn't call it a trap, everyone wants to go there).  Kung Fu Disneyworld!


We aren’t wing chun.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> One of the first things I had to deal with when starting kung fu, was this issue.  SO I made a rule, "fact check everything sifu says".  My personal rate was not too shabby, YMMV.
> 
> Both the "everything comes from Shaolin!!!!", and the wrong things your Sifu Woo said (ie sifu opining).  A lot of sifus get stuff wrong (please don't attack me, Wing Chun mafia).
> 
> The modern Shaolin Si is all of these things.  Chan study center, martial arts physical fitness gym, 1500 year old historical museum, and tourist center (wouldn't call it a trap, everyone wants to go there).  Kung Fu Disneyworld!


Read where I said I have no actual knowledge of these things.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We aren’t wing chun.


Well, few are.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well, few are.


I’m not sure what that means.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m not sure what that means.


Your sifu was wrong.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well, few are.


I guess I wouldn’t be able to tell one from another to know which is the better.


Oily Dragon said:


> Your sifu was wrong.


about what exactly?


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have heard that to about those places being a place where criminals could seek safety.


Yes, like any church.  Maybe.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I guess I wouldn’t be able to tell one from another to know which is the better.
> 
> about what exactly?


You posted it. #90, dude.

"My system is a family system so we don’t have a ton of Shaolin influence"

You're funny.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes, like any church.  Maybe.


Ok there you go. That’s one.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You posted it. #90, dude.
> 
> "My system is a family system so we don’t have a ton of Shaolin influence"
> 
> You're funny.


Meaning ? Sure it all has a root. I’m not sure why you are so uptight about stuff like old Chinese guys saying the temple is a tourist trap. It kinda is man. If I say that the influence is not directly Northern Shaolin is that somehow funny, or a reason to insult me? I confess my ignorance on a regular basis, I don’t deserve your disrespect. I had thought I missed your posts…


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Meaning ? Sure it all has a root. I’m not sure why you are so uptight about stuff like old Chinese guys saying the temple is a tourist trap. It kinda is man. If I say that the influence is not directly Northern Shaolin is that somehow funny, or a reason to insult me? I confess my ignorance on a regular basis, I don’t deserve your disrespect. I had thought I missed your posts…


You think I'm uptight? :-(

I just called it "Kung Fu Disneyland(tm)" homey.

Trademarked, even.  Word is bond.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok there you go. That’s one.


Why does that read like you are counting strikes lol.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why does that read like you are counting strikes lol.


He could be discussing Shaolin stancework, like you and Damien do.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why does that read like you are counting strikes lol.


Nah man. I’m not too into baseball.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> He could be discussing Shaolin stancework, like you and Damien do.


Nah I don’t know enough to discuss with them i any meaningful way. I don’t even know the Chinese names for things.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You think I'm uptight? :-(
> 
> I just called it "Kung Fu Disneyland(tm)" homey.
> 
> Trademarked, even.  Word is bond.


Well then how is Sifu Woo wrong ? If like any church they sheltered bandits, and it’s Kung fu Disneyland, then it sounds like he was right and you agree. Am I missing something?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You think I'm uptight? :-(
> 
> I just called it "Kung Fu Disneyland(tm)" homey.
> 
> Trademarked, even.  Word is bond.


No I think you are insulting me for no good reason.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> No I think you are insulting me for no good reason.


What was insulting?  You might just not understand me.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What was insulting?  You might just not understand me.


It’s entirely possible that I misunderstand you.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well then how is Sifu Woo wrong ? If like any church they sheltered bandits, and it’s Kung fu Disneyland, then it sounds like he was right and you agree. Am I missing something?


Yes.  Post #90.  Maybe it was the way you worded it but the temples were not criminal dens back then, the modern temple is not just acrobatic performers and stuff for tourists.  Of course there is a tourist side.

All sorts of people go to church for protection, guidance.  It's kind of a cliche.  Because priests help people, and that's what Shaolin really is.  But Shaolin Si was also a common meeting place for military men, even generals, so any criminals hiding there might get caught.  But I'm sure like most monasteries, those guys were trying to repent etc).

Shaolin at Songshan is one of the most important epicenters of Buddhism in the world.  That said, sure many sifus believe it is over hyped.  Depends on their interests I guess.  Hype goes alongside being awesome.

When I said it was Kung Fu Disney, that was a complement.  In fact, the actual Chinese Disneyland is not nearly as awesome (though they do have that new TRON ride..., but that's just my opinion.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes.  Post #90.  Maybe it was the way you worded it but the temples were not criminal dens back then, the modern temple is not just acrobatic performers and stuff for tourists.  Of course there is a tourist side.
> 
> All sorts of people go to church for protection, guidance.  It's kind of a cliche.  Because priests help people, and that's what Shaolin really is.  But Shaolin Si was also a common meeting place for military men, even generals, so any criminals hiding there might get caught.  But I'm sure like most monasteries, those guys were trying to repent etc).
> 
> ...


My Sifu and Sigung were Taoist. Maybe that has some bearing on his comments? He grew up in Canton 1920s until 1941 when he came back to the US to fight the Japanese. He was a hard critic of many things, including the Dalai Lama, Ed Parker, and Bruce Lee.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes.  Post #90.  Maybe it was the way you worded it but the temples were not criminal dens back then, the modern temple is not just acrobatic performers and stuff for tourists.  Of course there is a tourist side.
> 
> All sorts of people go to church for protection, guidance.  It's kind of a cliche.  Because priests help people, and that's what Shaolin really is.  But Shaolin Si was also a common meeting place for military men, even generals, so any criminals hiding there might get caught.  But I'm sure like most monasteries, those guys were trying to repent etc).
> 
> ...


Does my last post make any sense?


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My Sifu and Sigung were Taoist. Maybe that has some bearing on his comments? He grew up in Canton 1920s until 1941 when he came back to the US to fight the Japanese. He was a hard critic of many things, including the Dalai Lama, Ed Parker, and Bruce Lee.


Shaolin Si is actually one of the most important centers for Daoism too.  You could really call the whole Chan tradition mashup of Buddhist and Daoist philosophy.

Honestly, if you want a good, reliable history pick up Meir Shahars book (I think I misspelled him as Mahar earlier...my bad).  That was has peer reviewed content, and a great history of how the empty handed styles developed.

If you want a funny take on the tourism pick up "American Shaolin" by Matt Polly.  really funny first hand take by someone who actually went to train there for 2 years.  Not only a great wake up call to the real training, but it might give some insight on the current situation with the Communists.

In fact that last part (government oppression/corruption and how they milk this ancient lineage) might explain your sifus stance.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Does my last post make any sense?


Sure, thanks for clarifying that.  He really might just hate the Communists.  Shaolin Si is actually one of the most oppressed religious centers in the world, when you think about it.

Imagine if Italy had stayed Fascist, and what the Vatican would be like today. All those Catholics with their dreams and dollars, visiting every year.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Sure, thanks for clarifying that.  He really might just hate the Communists.  Shaolin Si is actually one of the most oppressed religious centers in the world, when you think about it.
> 
> Imagine if Italy had stayed Fascist, and what the Vatican would be like today. All those Catholics with their dreams and dollars, visiting every year.


He was definitely not a fan of the communists. That may have colored his opinions.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> He was definitely not a fan of the communists. That may have colored his opinions.


My grandma was born and raised in Communist Russia.  She hated them to the end, and blamed them for everything going wrong with the world, even though she left there in the 30s.


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## Damien (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Shaolin Si is actually one of the most important centers for Daoism too.  You could really call the whole Chan tradition mashup of Buddhist and Daoist philosophy.
> 
> Honestly, if you want a good, reliable history pick up Meir Shahars book (I think I misspelled him as Mahar earlier...my bad).  That was has peer reviewed content, and a great history of how the empty handed styles developed.
> 
> ...


I'm just reading (well listening) to American Shaolin for the first time. It is very funny. Spot on with observations about starting to train and western perceptions of China/Shaolin. 

Shahar's book is also great, if a little drier! One thing I do disagree with is his take on unarmed combat, which he suggests only emerged in Shaolin in the 1600s. This is based on manuals dating to around that time and a lack of direct mentions elsewhere, but most of the mentions in records are of Shaolin staff because that's what they were famous for. Occasionally the entire Shaolin system is referred to as Shaolin staff, even though it covers a lot more.

When you look at the stylistic developments in the area and the history of local villages interactions with the temple in more detail it is clear that hand forms were practiced there for longer than this, even if you disregard ideas such as some fist forms coming from Emperor Taizu in the 900s. 

He also talks about how the manuals are presenting duanda (close combat e.g. rotational focussed) techniques (as a pretty complete system) and saying they are superior to long fist techniques. This was very much a stylistic development at the time. But, going back to the video that started this thread, remember how Shaolin had long fist techniques before duanda? So how did Shaolin have time to develop a full long fist system, and then a full duanda system to replace it, along with forms etc. all in the early 1600s. Clearly not the case. Duanda alone must have been circulating for a while before the publication of the hand combat classic in order for the system to develop and then be compared to the pre-existing long fist system it was looking to replace.

Hand techniques were probably practiced for at least a few hundred years prior to the 1600s for all this to develop. Possibly even longer, since hand combat has always gone hand in hand with armed combat. The ancient Greeks practiced boxing and wrestling, and armed forces to this day practice unarmed combat, and now we have guns, tanks etc.

Ultimately duanda is no better than long fist, I imagine someone had an agenda somewhere, and there's always the hot new thing. Perhaps there was something in the larger martial culture which inspired the change in popularity, such as a rise in challenge matches.  Ultimately it's better to be able to use both styles and blend them together.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Damien said:


> I'm just reading (well listening) to American Shaolin for the first time. It is very funny. Spot on with observations about starting to train and western perceptions of China/Shaolin.
> 
> Shahar's book is also great, if a little drier! One thing I do disagree with is his take on unarmed combat, which he suggests only emerged in Shaolin in the 1600s. This is based on manuals dating to around that time and a lack of direct mentions elsewhere, but most of the mentions in records are of Shaolin staff because that's what they were famous for. Occasionally the entire Shaolin system is referred to as Shaolin staff, even though it covers a lot more.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate you, @Oily Dragon, @JowGaWolf , @Xue Sheng for your hard work useful information on CMA in its various forms. It is very interesting to read. Thank you.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Damien said:


> I'm just reading (well listening) to American Shaolin for the first time. It is very funny. Spot on with observations about starting to train and western perceptions of China/Shaolin.
> 
> Shahar's book is also great, if a little drier! One thing I do disagree with is his take on unarmed combat, which he suggests only emerged in Shaolin in the 1600s. This is based on manuals dating to around that time and a lack of direct mentions elsewhere, but most of the mentions in records are of Shaolin staff because that's what they were famous for. Occasionally the entire Shaolin system is referred to as Shaolin staff, even though it covers a lot more.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah. So much older.  I say this all the time.

The Shaolin didn't invent animal Kung Fu.  They just saw it and made an art.  The Wu Xing blends it.

Imagine anybody claiming they invented any form of hand to hand combat in the second millennium AD.  That's just crazy.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Oh yeah. So much older.  I say this all the time.
> 
> The Shaolin didn't invent animal Kung Fu.  They just saw it and made an art.  The Wu Xing blends it.
> 
> Imagine anybody claiming they invented any form of hand to hand combat in the second millennium AD.  That's just crazy.


You mean like mma?


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## Damien (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I really appreciate you, @Oily Dragon, @JowGaWolf , @Xue Sheng for your hard work useful information on CMA in its various forms. It is very interesting to read. Thank you.


You're welcome! Happy to spread the knowledge  


Oily Dragon said:


> Imagine anybody claiming they invented any form of hand to hand combat in the second millennium AD.  That's just crazy.


I know, right?! Like sure, people just never learnt to use their fists for a few thousand years of civilisation. They spent all their time inventing weird weapons instead! 😂

Never mind all the travelling of people around the world who definitely were trained in armed and unarmed combat.

I've heard some people claim that the human hand developed as it did in part to facilitate the making of a fist. This completely misses the fact that our hands are pretty fragile compared to other animals, but very dexterous, and a fist is just squeezing after you've removed an object. But the fact remains that hominids have been violent since forever, and the earliest weapons were just rocks. If you're going to hit with a rock, you need to have a concept of hitting without one.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You mean like mma?


Well the first M means mixed.  There is nothing ever new in MMA.

The Romans probably did do it better than PPV.


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## Damien (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You mean like mma?


I mean MMA is more a ruleset and particular organisation of techniques, it brings in other, older martial arts.

Even BJJ developed out of judo and Japanese jiu jitsu. Everything has antecedents of some type, though new techniques do of course emerge.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

Damien said:


> I mean MMA is more a ruleset and particular organisation of techniques, it brings in other, older martial arts.
> 
> Even BJJ developed out of judo and Japanese jiu jitsu. Everything has antecedents of some type, though new techniques do of course emerge.


Some of the best UFC moments have been Shaolin moments.


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