# Ninjutsu contradictions



## fatninja (May 10, 2017)

Hi guys!  As you know I have been recently taking  classes and I see a lot of different opinions on aspects of the Ninja, some say they didn't wear the typical outfits that are perpetrated by Hollywood, nor did they have the stereotypical straight bladed swords  with square Tsubas,  okay they had shortened Katanas or Wakisahis, cool,  But I just got Hatsumi Sensei's book, Ninjutsu- History and tradition, which showed the Hollywood ninja outfits  and which Hatsumi Sensei says himself that the swords were straight bladed with square tsubas, but later on he is stating that they were shortened katanas, I 'm confused as to what is what, maybe Mr.Parker or Mr. Roley can clarify?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 10, 2017)

My understanding is that although the book in question was published under Hatsumi's name, it was mostly written by Stephen Hayes, who was relatively inexperienced in the art at the time. 

I'm not sure what the full backstory was behind this. Hatsumi doesn't speak English and the book is not a translation of a book published in Japanese. Did he provide some notes which Hayes translated and added to based on his own misconceptions? Did he just give permission for Hayes to use his name in exchange for money or to get his name out to the English-speaking market? Is there some reason besides carelessness that he didn't insist on vetting the book before it was published? I don't know, but I have heard that Hatsumi is not happy with how the book came out. (As far as I can tell he doesn't have anyone but himself to blame, but perhaps other people know more on the subject.)


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## Chris Parker (May 10, 2017)

Ooh, boy.... okay.... 



fatninja said:


> Hi guys!



Hi.



fatninja said:


> As you know I have been recently taking  classes and I see a lot of different opinions on aspects of the Ninja, some say they didn't wear the typical outfits that are perpetrated by Hollywood,



They didn't... although we'll come back to this... but think about it logically... if the job of a ninja was to gather information by blending in, what good does it do to be seen wearing a "uniform" that basically screamed "I'm the enemy here, and I'm doing something you don't want me to be doing!"



fatninja said:


> nor did they have the stereotypical straight bladed swords  with square Tsubas,



They didn't... although we'll come back to this... but the same rule applies. Being found wearing the "uniform" of an enemy of the area, with a weapon that is categorically associated with said enemy, what exactly do you think the survival rate would be?



fatninja said:


> okay they had shortened Katanas or Wakisahis, cool,



Well, that's not entirely correct either... a Wakizashi is a particular way of wearing and mounting a short (companion) sword... and the idea of a "shortened katana" first needs you to give specific dimensions for an "unshortened" one.... which would not be overly possible. A number of systems, for their own reasons, would often have a preference for one size/architecture of sword over others... the Togakure Ryu of the Bujinkan, for example, has a specifically measured sword with a shorter (but still curved) blade... which is what Hatsumi has always shown (other than in publicity photos in the early 80's where it was insisted upon... his theatrical background coming to the fore there). The tsuba could be any shape, really... square is not unheard of on any Japanese sword... or oval... completely round... billowing edges... or any of a few others. The very distinct "Hollywood" square, though, is rather impractical, and is there to easily identify the "bad guys" (ninja) to the audience... as is the "uniform", for that matter.... 



fatninja said:


> But I just got Hatsumi Sensei's book, Ninjutsu- History and tradition, which showed the Hollywood ninja outfits  and which Hatsumi Sensei says himself that the swords were straight bladed with square tsubas, but later on he is stating that they were shortened katanas,



The thing to remember with that particular book is that it was largely ghost-written by Steve Hayes, at a point where Steve's own training and understanding was quite lacking... it was based in some articles that Hatsumi had written, but there were also large areas (such as the description of the sword used) that was pretty much purely Hayes... if you look closely at the photos of the "ninja-to" that Hatsumi is using, you'll see that it's a shorter, but still curved blade... so no, that's not Hatsumi himself saying it, despite the name on the dust cover.... 



fatninja said:


> I 'm confused as to what is what, maybe Mr.Parker or Mr. Roley can clarify?



Well, Don hasn't been here since about 2008... but hopefully this has helped clear a few things up for you.


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## fatninja (May 10, 2017)

Thanks guys!, bummer about that book, is there any "one definative  book that is 100 accurate?
I know there are a lot of opinions about Steve Hayes, but should I focus on Don's books? When I was a kid I was buying books by Ashida Kim , Steve Hayes and some others, already got burned on Antony Cummins, so I just want the most accurate info from the most reliable source  I do have two books of Hatsumi Sensei, but was looking for more, are there any other ghost written books by Hayes I should be aware of?


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## Chris Parker (May 10, 2017)

Which (Hatsumi) books do you have? Cummins is so hit and miss as to be almost unusable until you know what you're getting at... Kim is an outright fraud with no credibility at all... but the real thing to remember is that these arts are learnt by the body.... the more you train, the more you can get out of the books... at the moment, it's like trying to go straight from learning the alphabet to reading James Joyce's Ulysses.... 

In terms of "100% accurate"... no, I can't think of any. They all have their own perspective and that leads to particular biases... you get a much better understanding by taking more than one perspective and contrasting them against each other. But I would recommend sticking with the most credible names you can come up with... for the Bujinkan, that will mean Hatsumi's books will top the list... depending on what you want to get into, that will take you in one direction or another. Ninpo: Wisdom for Life is a good philosophical overview, with some interesting ideas and lessons... Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai gives much of the technical material for the primary 6 ryu taught.... but it isn't easy to follow until you have some real solid grounding in the art... same with "Way of the Ninja".... and many of the more recent book titles.


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## fatninja (May 10, 2017)

"Complete Ninja- Secret world revealed" and "Way of the Ninja- Secret techniques", and "Grandmaster's book of Ninja Training is on the way Thanks for getting back to me.


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## hwoarang-hapkido (May 11, 2017)

I've read somewhere that the ninja where often "opportunist" with their gear. Having a blade was very expensive, and they usually steal the blade from their dead opponent, and just shorten it . So it was curved, because it was a traditional samurai sword.

I've also learn that they don't find any historical writting or painting talking about straight sword. I remember that they only found one painting showing a straight blade. But they are not sure if it's a perspective view of the sword, a mistake of the painter, or an artistic choice, or if it's really show a straight blade.

But...i don't remember where i learned that. So be careful with what i say ^^' may be wrong


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## fatninja (May 11, 2017)

As long as we are on  authors and instructors, what's the concensus about Richard Van Donk?


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## Flying Crane (May 11, 2017)

fatninja said:


> As long as we are on  authors and instructors, what's the concensus about Richard Van Donk?


I don't know the quality of his training or his instructing, but my wife had some classes with him.  She was not impressed at all by his character.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 11, 2017)

fatninja said:


> As long as we are on  authors and instructors, what's the concensus about Richard Van Donk?


I've never met him, but he doesn't have a great reputation in Bujinkan circles. I have seen some of his videos and was not impressed.


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## dunc (May 11, 2017)

fatninja said:


> As long as we are on  authors and instructors, what's the concensus about Richard Van Donk?



I've always found him to be a pretty nice guy

Not a good representative for the Bujinkan 'though


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## fatninja (May 11, 2017)

dunc said:


> I've always found him to be a pretty nice guy
> 
> Not a good representative for the Bujinkan 'though


Why is that?, I know he comes off like a used car salesman, selling stuff, is that why, I am not familiar with him.


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## fatninja (May 11, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've never met him, but he doesn't have a great reputation in Bujinkan circles. I have seen some of his videos and was not impressed.


Why not?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 11, 2017)

fatninja said:


> Why not?


As far as his reputation in the Bujinkan, you'll have to ask the people who are still active within that organization.

As far as my opinion of the videos I've seen ... let's just say I have reasonably extensive experience in a variety of martial arts (including some years in the Bujinkan) and the stuff I've seen from him does not seem to demonstrate great fundamental body mechanics or understanding of realistic violence. That said - I think most of what I've seen are old videos. For all I know he could be much better now that he was when those were made.

(General disclaimer - given that you have never met me or seen evidence of my martial arts skills or knowledge, you should take any judgments I offer on such matters with some large grains of salt. For all you know, my knowledge of martial arts comes from reading comic books and watching anime.)


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## dunc (May 11, 2017)

Well the sales focus for one - We're not supposed to make a living from the art

His movement leaves a lot to be desired

Although his translations Soke's of old books are helpful I think


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## Chris Parker (May 12, 2017)

fatninja said:


> "Complete Ninja- Secret world revealed" and "Way of the Ninja- Secret techniques", and "Grandmaster's book of Ninja Training is on the way Thanks for getting back to me.



Okay.... as mentioned, I think that the benefit you will get from these will be rather limited at this point... training is more important, and the more you get exposed to the art, the more you can get out of the books. That said, the best one for you there is Way of the Ninja... it's got a bit more of the basic, fundamental technical aspects, being a kinda version of the older technical manuals (aspects of the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, for example, largely the Ten and Chi sections... with fundamental strikes, throws, locks etc). Complete Ninja is one that doesn't really have much to interest me.... partially as there's not a lot of "new" material there, and more that it's more a lot of stories and musings... kinda interesting and amusing, but nothing too major or special (for me). Grandmasters Book is basically a couple of interviews some senior students did with Hatsumi in the 80's... again, interesting to get some perspective, but not something that offers much benefit in anything other than intellectual interest at this stage in your journey. That said, enjoy them... and keep coming back to them. You'll find they mean more later than they do now... 



hwoarang-hapkido said:


> I've read somewhere that the ninja where often "opportunist" with their gear. Having a blade was very expensive, and they usually steal the blade from their dead opponent, and just shorten it . So it was curved, because it was a traditional samurai sword.
> 
> I've also learn that they don't find any historical writting or painting talking about straight sword. I remember that they only found one painting showing a straight blade. But they are not sure if it's a perspective view of the sword, a mistake of the painter, or an artistic choice, or if it's really show a straight blade.
> 
> But...i don't remember where i learned that. So be careful with what i say ^^' may be wrong



Er..... yeah.... nothing about that is correct at all.... 



fatninja said:


> As long as we are on  authors and instructors, what's the concensus about Richard Van Donk?



Well, I will say that he doesn't like being corrected.... ha!


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## fatninja (May 12, 2017)

UhOh Chris, Sounds like there's a story there, C'mon spill it, inquiring minds wanna know, lol!


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 12, 2017)

I've actually met Richard at a Tai Kai.  He would not be someone I would
train under.


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## Charlemagne (May 18, 2017)

A bit of a more scholarly approach than is too often used on this topic.  His writing is a bit prolix, but it's probably worth a read if you are interested in this area.  
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WRITRXY/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o08_?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Chris Parker (May 18, 2017)

Godsdammit, no. Nothing Cummins has ever done can be described accurately as "scholarly"... and that particular tome is deeply, deeply flawed. Not a good recommendation for anything other than promoting Antony's blood-thirsty fantasies and complete lack of regard for genuine forms of research and academic approaches.


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## Charlemagne (May 18, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Godsdammit, no. Nothing Cummins has ever done can be described accurately as "scholarly"... and that particular tome is deeply, deeply flawed. Not a good recommendation for anything other than promoting Antony's blood-thirsty fantasies and complete lack of regard for genuine forms of research and academic approaches.



Interesting.  I didn't see anything in that book that could be described as a "bloodthirsty fantasy".  He seemed to draw everything there from direct sources such as writings from those systems he discussed, but I will admit that this subject is far outside of my area.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 18, 2017)

*Cummins is well, inept and wrong on many accounts and as Chris mentioned he operates in his own fantasy world.*  If you were looking for good translations by an individual who actually trains and reads and writes Japanese at the highest level then you would want Don Roley's translations:

Books for Sale

You are not going to learn anything of value from books by Stephen Hayes or Antony Cummins.  Way to much misinformation!


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## Chris Parker (May 19, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Interesting.  I didn't see anything in that book that could be described as a "bloodthirsty fantasy".  He seemed to draw everything there from direct sources such as writings from those systems he discussed, but I will admit that this subject is far outside of my area.



An excerpt from the book: the samurai were a head hunting cult -- 5/05/17

The sheer ridiculousness of the passage there is astounding... an overly sensationalised, and thoroughly inaccurate description based on a failure to understand the historical realities, the culture, or even the direct sources he's taking his bizarre ideas from, as he is choosing to only follow what suits his own misconceptions, as he does over and over again. The idea of samurai being a "head hunting cult", that "head hunting was one of their core activities" is purely based in his perverse fascination with the act of beheading.... Antony rather infamously did a video of displaying heads with a decapitated pigs head.... a bit gruesome, but with him grinning like he's just been offered a lap dance. The dude's sick. His appearance on the "documentary" Samurai Head Hunters was just as bad, and just as flawed.... frankly, the guy has issues, and those pervade his "work".

I'm waiting to get permission to quote a critique on this exact text (the excerpt, and the book it came from) from Prof. Karl Friday.... who has nothing good to say for Cummins and his offerings... but suffice to say that his take is that it is entirely without merit, and that Antony has no clue what he's doing, as he fails to even understand different times in samurai history, and how that changes things.... making sweeping claims that aren't true across all periods.... and even failing to be accurate for any period at all.

I wouldn't even use it as a firelighter.

I'm also going to link an article from another koryu practitioner who, although he lists himself as very much an amateur historian and researcher, is far beyond Antony's credentials in every relevant regard. This article covers the issues with Antony's claims and methods, and uses the term "fraud" to describe him... due to the rules here, I'm not going to state if I would use the same word... but I do heartily suggest reading the article (as well as the second in the series, if you want to understand his issues on a martial level). The blog article is: Antony Cummins is a FRAUD

The basic thing is that no-one, not a single soul who come to Antony's work with actual knowledge find value in his offerings... instead, we find them to be, more than anything, a hindrance... as people who are introduced to the topics using his works without fail come away with incorrect knowledge and assumptions.... not too dissimilar to  those who rely on Hayes' early works, really....


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## Charlemagne (May 19, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> An excerpt from the book: the samurai were a head hunting cult -- 5/05/17
> 
> The sheer ridiculousness of the passage there is astounding... an overly sensationalised, and thoroughly inaccurate description based on a failure to understand the historical realities, the culture, or even the direct sources he's taking his bizarre ideas from, as he is choosing to only follow what suits his own misconceptions, as he does over and over again. The idea of samurai being a "head hunting cult", that "head hunting was one of their core activities" is purely based in his perverse fascination with the act of beheading.... Antony rather infamously did a video of displaying heads with a decapitated pigs head.... a bit gruesome, but with him grinning like he's just been offered a lap dance. The dude's sick. His appearance on the "documentary" Samurai Head Hunters was just as bad, and just as flawed.... frankly, the guy has issues, and those pervade his "work".
> 
> ...



Interesting.  Thanks for that.  The book I liked doesn't contain any of that sort of thing that I recall, but it is certainly concerning that other works do.


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## Tez3 (May 19, 2017)

Thank you very much Chris for making me splutter my coffee out! I looked at the excerpt of the book and this... _"In the main, a man does not like having his head cut from his neck_", no sh*t Sherlock! that is some really bad or deliberately comic writing!


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## Chris Parker (May 19, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Interesting.  Thanks for that.  The book I liked doesn't contain any of that sort of thing that I recall, but it is certainly concerning that other works do.



Double check your book.... that's an excerpt directly from the book you recommended.


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## Charlemagne (May 19, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Double check your book.... that's an excerpt directly from the book you recommended.



I'll go back and look, thanks.


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## Chris Parker (May 21, 2017)

Okay, I have permission to quote from the review given, with a small amount of editing at Professor Friday's request. The excerpt I linked above came up for discussion at a closed Facebook page I am a part of, which is dedicated to Classical Japanese martial arts and history (Koryu arts and the surrounding culture), and, as expected, no-one there found anything positive. The most precise and dispassionate critique, though, was from Professor Karl Friday... who, if you're unaware, is a highly respected member of the Koryu community, being a Shihan (Menkyo Kaiden holder) in Kashima Shinryu under Seki Humitake, as well as being a highly regarded academic, holding teaching positions in a number of universities, lecturing on Japanese and Asian culture, and history. He speaks and reads Japanese fluently, and presently lives in Japan, teaching there. He has published a number of incredibly well regarded books on Koryu culture, Japanese history (centred around warrior culture), and more.

Prof. Friday's response is as follows:


			
				Karl Friday said:
			
		

> Basically, the article - or rather, the book it's based on - is crap. It conflates multiple periods of history, making sweeping comments (many of which are misleading and even out-and-out inaccurate for ANY period) in order to produce a silly and sensationalistic picture.
> 
> Japanese warriors were NOT a cult, in any reasonable sense of the term (unless you define "cult" as "any group of people with something in common"), much less of a "head hunting cult". They did NOT "thrust [heads of fallen warriors] onto spears or the ends of their swords and cry out in triumph to the gods of war". The practice of collecting heads as proof of military merit actually comes from China. It's described in detail in the ritsuryo codes, which predate the origin of the samurai by two centuries, and it was a simple (if somewhat grisly) accounting procedure, not a blood thirsty ritual.



Note from myself... this is not unlike the idea of Native Americans being labeled "scalping savages", despite the practice being introduced by French bounty hunters... to continue:



			
				Karl Friday said:
			
		

> Heads of criminals were sometimes displayed, and sometimes paraded to the display grounds TIED to naginata, but the image of warriors slowly sawing off heads from still-living opponents while pinning them to the ground, then springing up to shout and dance about it like Tarzan after a kill is about as ridiculous as anything I've come across.
> 
> Heads were normally collected from dead opponents, and this is, in fact, one of the reasons that commanders tried to discourage the practice from the 1300's onward. Too many troops would simply collect a head or two from the first bodies they came across, and then quit the battle, since they could already claim their reward.



Prof. Friday then goes on to critique Antony Cummins himself, as well as advising on better sources for such material.



			
				Karl Friday said:
			
		

> I discussed the early history of this practice in _Samurai Warfare, and the State_, and Tom Conlan discusses it in _State of War_. For a really detailed discussion, see Suzuki Masaya's _Katana to Kubitori_.
> 
> I would strongly advise ignoring anything and everything that Cummins writes. He has absolutely no training or credentials related to Japanese history, and apparently doesn't even Japanese.



For clarification, Antony Cummins does not read, nor speak Japanese at all. His "translations" are done by others, with no knowledge or understanding of the context, leaving Antony to add his own imagination to the translation work they do. This is not a good recipe for anything credible at all.

Professor Friday was then asked about the validity of Antony's work and translations, and this was his response:



			
				Karl Friday said:
			
		

> ... I definitely don't recommend putting stock in ANY translation, unless you can be sure that the translator has the skills (the ability to read the language of the original text, the background knowledge of the society and culture that produced it needed to properly understand and interpret it -- ALL translation is interpretation -- the needed understanding of the historical context of the text, the ability to write clearly and accurately in the target language, etc.) to do the job. Nothing about Cummins' background suggests he has any of these skills, and the fact that he believes it (is) okay to delegate primary source research and translation to associates (even if they are qualified -- and why would anyone with the skills and training to do proper historical research and translation be content to do grunt work for someone else, rather than writing his or her own books?) demonstrates a shallow and amateurish understanding of what history and historical research are about.



My thanks to Professor Friday for giving me permission to quote him here.


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## fatninja (May 22, 2017)

Okay, From what I have learned is for Accurate info/translation of   books of Ninjutsu, Don Roley is a great source, but as an aside what about books on the Samurai arts, Bushido?,  Asian philosophies  like the Book of 5 rings, Art of war? I don't think I'll be getting anymore Hatsumi books because it seems as though Steve Hayes has his hand in every one, True?


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## dunc (May 22, 2017)

No!


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 22, 2017)

No, Stephen Hayes certainly does not have his hand in every one.  Those written twenty plus years ago, sure.  If you look at the newer ones like Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai, The Way of the Ninja: Secret Techniques, Advanced Stick Fighting, Japanese Sword Fighting, The Essence of Budo and more.  There are some older books that Stephen Hayes had nothing to do with like Stick Fighting or the Tetsuzan compilation or all of the books written in Japanese.  There is a lot of good information out there.  The book written by Paul Richardson is also a good read: Introductory history to the nine schools of the bujinkan by Paul Richardson (Paperback) - Lulu


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## Yamabushii (Jun 28, 2017)

Hi. Just chiming in on this thread here and saw your post. I wanted to add my thoughts on two things you mentioned.



Chris Parker said:


> They didn't... although we'll come back to this... but think about it logically... if the job of a ninja was to gather information by blending in, what good does it do to be seen wearing a "uniform" that basically screamed "I'm the enemy here, and I'm doing something you don't want me to be doing!"



I don't like the term "uniform" or phrase "ninja uniform" when it comes to the ninja, and maybe that's what your comment above was alluding to, but wearing all black did serve its purpose depending on the night sky and how visible the moon is or isn't, same with the dark blues, grays, browns, etc. My personal favorite "uniform" are my everyday clothes. 

As a response to Fatninja, I think people really just need to stop thinking of them as "uniforms" though.



Chris Parker said:


> Well, that's not entirely correct either... a Wakizashi is a particular way of wearing and mounting a short (companion) sword... and the idea of a "shortened katana" first needs you to give specific dimensions for an "unshortened" one....


 
I don't necessarily believe Fatninja is incorrect when he says a "shortened katana". I believe he may be referring to a shinobi-gatana, but I agree with you that it wasn't a requirement or that every shinobi carried one.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 2, 2017)

Yamabushii said:


> Hi. Just chiming in on this thread here and saw your post. I wanted to add my thoughts on two things you mentioned.



Hi.



Yamabushii said:


> I don't like the term "uniform" or phrase "ninja uniform" when it comes to the ninja, and maybe that's what your comment above was alluding to, but wearing all black did serve its purpose depending on the night sky and how visible the moon is or isn't, same with the dark blues, grays, browns, etc. My personal favorite "uniform" are my everyday clothes.
> 
> As a response to Fatninja, I think people really just need to stop thinking of them as "uniforms" though.



Yeah... you missed the context entirely. My point was that there never was anything like a "ninja uniform", as the idea is just ludicrous when you actually take it apart and think about it. Oh, and no.... black is fairly bad there unless it's a purely black night... which is so rare as to be non-existent. Blues, reds, sure... but black stands out too much against the lighter "black" of a night.



Yamabushii said:


> I don't necessarily believe Fatninja is incorrect when he says a "shortened katana". I believe he may be referring to a shinobi-gatana, but I agree with you that it wasn't a requirement or that every shinobi carried one.



Outside of the teachings of Togakure Ryu (with however much salt you choose to apply), there is no such thing as a "shinobi-gatana".... which, again, is the point.


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## Yamabushii (Jul 3, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah... you missed the context entirely.



I did say "and maybe that's what your comment above was alluding to", did I not?



Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and no.... black is fairly bad there unless it's a purely black night... which is so rare as to be non-existent. Blues, reds, sure... but black stands out too much against the lighter "black" of a night.



Rare, yes. Non-existent, no. I'm also not referring to a jet black, and I'm also not referring to out in the open. When it's a cloudy night with no moon light and you're in an area with thick trees making it even darker, it can be handy. Is it my favorite color in a shinobi shizoku? Certainly not, but I'm not going to deny it serves a purpose.



Chris Parker said:


> Outside of the teachings of Togakure Ryu (with however much salt you choose to apply), there is no such thing as a "shinobi-gatana".... which, again, is the point.



Togakure Ryu is the core of what I've been taught about Ninpo, and this comes directly from Soke Tanemura himself. You don't have to accept Togakure Ryu as part of your training, but for the many of us who study it, a shinobi-gatana was legit. Which honestly comes as a surprise to me. I wasn't aware there were any students of Ninpo today who don't acknowledge it as a ryu-ha. The ninja were known for carrying shorter swords in regular length saya. It's quite literally Shinobi 101.


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## fatninja (Jul 3, 2017)

Wait lemme get my popcorn! Just as an aside, I understand the folly of dressing like a stereotypical ninja, and it made no tactical sense, but I see a lot of established Bujinkan practitoners , worldwide perpetuate these images of themselves dressed as Hollywood ninjas, didn't they get the memo?


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## KangTsai (Jul 4, 2017)

hwoarang-hapkido said:


> I've read somewhere that the ninja where often "opportunist" with their gear. Having a blade was very expensive, and they usually steal the blade from their dead opponent, and just shorten it . So it was curved, because it was a traditional samurai sword.
> 
> I've also learn that they don't find any historical writting or painting talking about straight sword. I remember that they only found one painting showing a straight blade. But they are not sure if it's a perspective view of the sword, a mistake of the painter, or an artistic choice, or if it's really show a straight blade.
> 
> But...i don't remember where i learned that. So be careful with what i say ^^' may be wrong


I would educatedly guess that is true, since ninja were almost exclusively comprised of peasant organisations. Hence the occasional use of cheap but effective weapons such as kusarigama. Also poisons.


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## dunc (Jul 4, 2017)

Sword design evolved over time so you can't really be too binary about things like this

When hatsumi-sensei teaches sword he often shows how the core technique changes according to the point in history. Generally speaking straight swords evolved into tachi, then katana. Polearms even got thrown into the mix too with people re-purposing naganata blades as swords

According to their circumstances/requirements different ryuha used variants of the "popular" sword of the time. Togakure Ryu has a short blade (curved) with a normal length handle, Kukishin Den uses a longer blade with a relatively long handle and so on

There were times when people that we may categorise as ninja were in favour and employed by the powerful elite (& therefore likely had good quality weapons) and there were times when they lived in a relatively poor region of Japan (& therefore most likely didn't have access to the best weapons)

Improvised weapons and tools that also doubled up as weapons are common to all cultures and Japan (& the ryuha) are no different


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Dec 6, 2018)

Why would any Master want to issue a certificate of rank to any disciple who is trained to be an assassin?? 

I think that the very notion of leaving a paper trail is dangerous and would lead straight back to the master and ultimately to the clan.

Why also would the issue of authentication be raised? This as far as i understand is a western academic methodology and not something that was practiced in ancient Japan especially among the Shinobi.

I have also noticed that Dr Masaaki Hatsumi is regarded as a founder of an Authentic form. How was this established as Authentic?? And by whom??

Did he present the Western World with a certificate??

I am of the opinion that the least qualified people are the Authenticators of Martial Arts and have absolutely no "Locus-Tande" as Judges or Authenticators.

Please correct me if I am wrong but This seems like the case of abortion being presided over by a Muslim Judge applying Islamic Law.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 6, 2018)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Why would any Master want to issue a certificate of rank to any disciple who is trained to be an assassin??
> 
> I think that the very notion of leaving a paper trail is dangerous and would lead straight back to the master and ultimately to the clan.


Ninjutsu, contrary to portrayal in popular media, was not an art of assassination. Practitioners were not being trained as assassins.



Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Why also would the issue of authentication be raised? This as far as i understand is a western academic methodology and not something that was practiced in ancient Japan especially among the Shinobi.



This is incorrect. Traditional Japanese martial arts tend to place significant emphasis on lineage, documentation of teaching licensure, and other such markers of "authenticity."



Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> I have also noticed that Dr Masaaki Hatsumi is regarded as a founder of an Authentic form. How was this established as Authentic?? And by whom??



This is also incorrect. Hatsumi is not officially* regarded as the founder of any martial art. His title is "soke", meaning he is the person who is responsible for the transmission of the martial lineages which were handed down to him by his teacher, Takamatsu.

There is debate about the actual history of those 9 lineages. A couple are known** to be actual historical arts which Takamatsu was verifiably licensed in. The other arts cannot be traced back further than Takamatsu and the claimed history of those arts may have been invented or embellished by Takamatsu.

*(I say "officially" because Hatsumi has put so much of his own interpretation in the material he teaches that he would be totally justified in giving it a new name and declaring himself the founder of the art. However he has shown no interest in doing so.)


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## dunc (Dec 6, 2018)

Generally I agree

On the lineage thing:

Sean Askew has fairly recently managed to connect Takamatsu to his teacher (Toda) and establish that Toda was an esteemed sword instructor, came from Iga (family owned a castle there), worked for the shogun on “special projects” etc and pretty much back up the oral history of certain events that happened to him

He’s regularly posting on facebook etc with his findings - which are the first time someone knowledgable has actually taken the time to do some pretty thorough research


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 6, 2018)

dunc said:


> Generally I agree
> 
> On the lineage thing:
> 
> ...


I’ve seen some of those postings. Of course, even if it could be conclusively proven that Takamatsu received soke-ship of those arts from Toda, that would raise the question of how much Toda may have embellished the histories. It’s cool that Sean is doing the research though.


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## dunc (Dec 7, 2018)

Yes nothing is going to be 100% black and white
Hell that even applies to what my grandad did

It's pretty clear that Toda was from Iga, was a super-well-respected martial artist, had a job traditionally given to ninjas & was related to Takamatsu
So certainly the scales are tipped in favour of the link back to martial arts of Iga

On the longer term lineage (ie lists of previous people), I suspect that this is not a model of "a single soke bequeaths his art to another single soke", and more of a list of notable folk from the area / group back in history


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Dec 8, 2018)

When we make assumptions based on the standards set by westerners on eastern arts, we would find ourselves being biased towards the western ideology. This is in fact inaccurate and a serious misinterpretation of truth. I agree that emphasis was placed on lineage on certain facets of the arts like sword making etc. This is much like the passing on of a trade from father to son. This did not however apply to ninjitsu or the transmission thereof. In order to see the context one needs to look at the circumstances which necessitated the rouge element. the Shinobi had many teachers, each contributing their aspects of mastery to the students. There was never a complete sylabus nor was or is ninjitsu a distinct art that could carry any kind of lineage. The lineage of the art is multi faceted with each facet having a Master who taught what they knew to the youth and to each other as far as they could. This is why this particular art can be divided into many individual forms. The reason being that the ninja had many masters. This is why one may notice that various clans have their own specializations and so do the sub clans. While one may determine ones natural element by that which feels comfortable to the individual character anything taught, learned or transmitted will undoubtedly carry through to the actual practice or implementation of the art. 
In the same way that research by a westerner will be done from a western perspective while research by an easterner will be done from an eastern perspective. Each placing emphasis on that which is deemed an important to their cultural heritage while neither is correct nor incorrect. 

"I shall now leave you to ponder"

Kind regards

Ebrahim


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Dec 8, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ninjutsu, contrary to portrayal in popular media, was not an art of assassination. Practitioners were not being trained as assassins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My personal opinion is that no educator or teacher will transmit his or her understanding of knowledge accurately, nor will the student understand it in the same way that the teacher did. although there may be elements of the initial message within the lesson, it is all left to the student's understanding. So we are all Master and Soke in our own right. I have seen this when I attend classes that are taught by my piers who attended the same class that I did under the same Soke at the same time, Yet we teach the same lesson differently each placing emphasis on different things within the lesson. Thus we do not transmit accurately what we were taught.

I have learned to recognize this a long time ago and try to teach what i was taught as accurately as possible, and yet it is not the same.

What i teach my students may be as far removed from what I was taught as chalk is from cheese!!

Kind regards

Ebrahim


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Dec 8, 2018)

The issue of teaching license is also over rated.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Dec 8, 2018)

I am fully aware of the fact that the ninja were not being primarily trained as assassins. Who has better knowledge of killing than your doctor. In fact we have modern day assassins called Doctors, Pharmacists, Surgeons etc. The ninja are alive and well my friend.

Kind regards

Ebrahim


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Dec 8, 2018)

I am of the opinion that the least qualified people are the Authenticators of Martial Arts and have absolutely no "Locus-Tande" as Judges or Authenticators.

I have to make a correction to the above text.

I am of the opinion that the least qualified people trying to Judge are not the Authenticators of Martial Arts and have absolutely no "Locus-Tande" as Judges or Authenticators.


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## pgsmith (Dec 11, 2018)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> This did not however apply to ninjitsu or the transmission thereof.



  Anyone connected to the internet can toss their opinions out there and call them facts. You have done just this without adding anything to indicate why we shouldn't just assume you are clueless. Therefore, until you offer proof of your ideas, that is just what I'll have to assume.



Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> "I shall now leave you to ponder"



  Ponder why we should listen to your ideas?  



Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> The issue of teaching license is also over rated.



  And that is quite a telling statement.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Dec 11, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> Anyone connected to the internet can toss their opinions out there and call them facts. You have done just this without adding anything to indicate why we shouldn't just assume you are clueless. Therefore, until you offer proof of your ideas, that is just what I'll have to assume.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is true that anyone connected to the internet can toss around ideas. Especially when they use the internet to do their research. As well as the said research of clueless people seeking recognition. Have you ever wondered why the people present hypotheses on little known subjects? My opinion is that when these publications are pier reviewed by other clueless people it meets little resistance and soon is established as fact. Well fact is not truth and the presentation of uncontested thumb suck evidence is proof of nothing more than a vivid imagination.
The clueless have endeavoured to become experts and authorities on subjects they simply do not understand. 
The ninjutsu manuals that are in circulation are but interpretations of a practitioner. This includes almost all of the antique scrolls.
Regarding modern research methodologies. I am proficient in various approaches to research. As well as various  methodologies for reviewing and weighting my research as well as the research of others. 
Do I need to present credentials in order to get a point across.

Those who really know will never tell. While those who don't know will almost always make the most noise.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Dec 11, 2018)

Yo


pgsmith said:


> Anyone connected to the internet can toss their opinions out there and call them facts. You have done just this without adding anything to indicate why we shouldn't just assume you are clueless. Therefore, until you offer proof of your ideas, that is just what I'll have to assume.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You refer to yourself in the plural. Are you omnipotent? Or are you one person who seeks to claim authority over all things??

Have you discussed your response with others prior to posting? If so then I deserve a response from each individual that you represent.
I shall leave you with something to ponder again that is if you have the capacity as the collective which you claim.

Acupuncture has been practiced for thousands of years within various Eastern cultures. It has only recently received recognition as a valid form of auxillary medicine. Now you need to be certified by an institution before you may administer treatment. Most of these institutions have imported a said expert and now wish to sell this very art to its originators. Simply because they have turned it into a commodity.

Wooooow!!!


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## drop bear (Dec 11, 2018)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Yo
> 
> 
> You refer to yourself in the plural. Are you omnipotent? Or are you one person who seeks to claim authority over all things??
> ...



So you think that is a money making issue and not an avoiding hepatitis issue?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 11, 2018)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> It is true that anyone connected to the internet can toss around ideas. Especially when they use the internet to do their research. As well as the said research of clueless people seeking recognition. Have you ever wondered why the people present hypotheses on little known subjects? My opinion is that when these publications are pier reviewed by other clueless people it meets little resistance and soon is established as fact. Well fact is not truth and the presentation of uncontested thumb suck evidence is proof of nothing more than a vivid imagination.
> The clueless have endeavoured to become experts and authorities on subjects they simply do not understand.
> The ninjutsu manuals that are in circulation are but interpretations of a practitioner. This includes almost all of the antique scrolls.
> Regarding modern research methodologies. I am proficient in various approaches to research. As well as various  methodologies for reviewing and weighting my research as well as the research of others.
> ...


I am also curious why I should listen to your ideas. I just zoned out halfway through reading your posts too many times to bother asking.


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## dunc (Dec 11, 2018)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> What i teach my students may be as far removed from what I was taught as chalk is from cheese!!
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Ebrahim



Hi
Im curious as to what you teach your students and what you learned originally 
Thanks
D


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## pgsmith (Dec 11, 2018)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> You refer to yourself in the plural. Are you omnipotent? Or are you one person who seeks to claim authority over all things??


  I did not refer to myself in the plural, I'm only omnipotent in my wife's eyes, and I haven't claimed authority over anything. However, if this is the extent of your reading comprehension, I can now see why you have so many strange ideas with no facts to back them up.

  So, are you going to answer Dunc's question, or will you try and be mysterious and evasive some more?


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 16, 2019)

I teach my students what I have understood from what I was taught. This is not an accurate transfer of knowledge. I accept that what i was taught may have taken the same form. So I also encourage them to have many teachers and find their own paths.


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2019)

Well this thread became interesting.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 16, 2019)

drop bear said:


> So you think that is a money making issue and not an avoiding hepatitis issue?



Please clarify where hepatitis originated. In fact research the origins of most STD's. If not all.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2019)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Please clarify where hepatitis originated. In fact research the origins of most STD's. If not all.



The origins are irrelevant. (Although I am curious as to what you consider the origins to be...)

The fact is that most can be spread by sharing needles, and acupuncture needles count.

So, legislating hygiene standards to which practitioners must comply is a small part of the fight against these infections.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 16, 2019)

pdg said:


> The origins are irrelevant. (Although I am curious as to what you consider the origins to be...)
> 
> The fact is that most can be spread by sharing needles, and acupuncture needles count.
> 
> So, legislating hygiene standards to which practitioners must comply is a small part of the fight against these infections.



Does it require a degree to use sterile needles. I believe not!

It is simply a means of milking and packaging. In fact the sooner we realise that we are mere batteries that keeps some kids toys going the better.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 16, 2019)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Does it require a degree to use sterile needles. I believe not!
> 
> It is simply a means of milking and packaging. In fact the sooner we realise that we are mere batteries that keeps some kids toys going the better.


By the way I am a Bio-Medical engineer and appreciate the value of sanitary environment and practice. Let me just add that operating theatres are pig sty's compared to electronics clean rooms.


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2019)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Please clarify where hepatitis originated. In fact research the origins of most STD's. If not all.


I think they all originated in the penis.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> I think they all originated in the penis.


Actually the probability that it originated in a vagina is more likely as it is an ideal incubator.

A little reading does wonders.


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2019)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> Actually the probability that it originated in a vagina is more likely as it is an ideal incubator.
> 
> A little reading does wonders.


Aren't you clever?  You just answered your own question.   No need for a book report after all.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 16, 2019)

Steve said:


> Aren't you clever?  You just answered your own question.   No need for a book report after all.



For your information I am a Bio-Medical engineer and this happens to be one of the subjects I have had to do extensive research on. The bit on reading was meant for you.


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## pgsmith (Jan 16, 2019)

dunc said:


> Hi
> Im curious as to what you teach your students and what you learned originally
> Thanks





pgsmith said:


> So, are you going to answer Dunc's question, or will you try and be mysterious and evasive some more?





Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> I teach my students what I have understood from what I was taught. This is not an accurate transfer of knowledge. I accept that what i was taught may have taken the same form. So I also encourage them to have many teachers and find their own paths.



Well, I guess that answers *my* question at least!


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 16, 2019)

pdg said:


> The origins are irrelevant. (Although I am curious as to what you consider the origins to be...)
> 
> The fact is that most can be spread by sharing needles, and acupuncture needles count.
> 
> So, legislating hygiene standards to which practitioners must comply is a small part of the fight against these infections.


I do not disagree with implementing the best practice standards. What I disagree with is the packaging of ancient practices as commodities for sale at the canning factories aka universities. Why should I seek the recognition and acknowledgement from an institution on a subject that is inherent in my culture.


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## Ebrahim Mosaval (Jan 16, 2019)

pgsmith said:


> Well, I guess that answers *my* question at least!


My pleasure


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2019)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> For your information I am a Bio-Medical engineer and this happens to be one of the subjects I have had to do extensive research on. The bit on reading was meant for you.


I heard somewhere that you're a biomedical engineer. Do you specialize in stds? 



Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> I do not disagree with implementing the best practice standards. What I disagree with is the packaging of ancient practices as commodities for sale at the canning factories aka universities. Why should I seek the recognition and acknowledgement from an institution on a subject that is inherent in my culture.


From which canning factory did you get your engineering degree?


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## jks9199 (Jan 16, 2019)

Folks,
It might behoove one and all to remember that MartialTalk is the *Friendly *martial arts community...


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2019)

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> It might behoove one and all to remember that MartialTalk is the *Friendly *martial arts community...


I’m being friendly, and also really enjoying myself.  But I’ll let the biomedical engineer dig the hole a little deeper on his own.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 16, 2019)

Ebrahim Mosaval said:


> I do not disagree with implementing the best practice standards. What I disagree with is the packaging of ancient practices as commodities for sale at the canning factories aka universities. Why should I seek the recognition and acknowledgement from an institution on a subject that is inherent in my culture.


So you think it’s genetic knowledge? Or are you aware it requires training? If the latter, why not use universities to deliver that training?


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## drop bear (Jan 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> So you think it’s genetic knowledge? Or are you aware it requires training? If the latter, why not use universities to deliver that training?



Ironically ninjitsu requires you to understand the culture to understand the art.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 17, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Ironically ninjitsu requires you to understand the culture to understand the art.



How so?


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## drop bear (Jan 17, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> How so?



There are concepts in ninjitsu that are purely Japanese.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 17, 2019)

drop bear said:


> There are concepts in ninjitsu that are purely Japanese.


Can you elaborate?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Can you elaborate?


I’m betting this is drop bear making a little snark regarding past lectures from Chris Parker on the subject of people commenting on traditional Japanese arts without understanding the cultural context. Just a guess.


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## dunc (Jan 17, 2019)

Traditional Japanese martial arts are, well, traditional and Japanese
So naturally there is a heavy Japanese context

But.....

The underlying principles and essence are, I believe, global in nature and TBH I feel that too many people hide behind the cultural and historical context as that's unquantifiable. It can also give folk a point of differentiation when selling their wares to westerners which creates an unhealthy dynamic I think

I know several experts in all things Japanese, who in the eyes of the Japanese just don't get it for example

It's also clear that there is a big gap in being able to understand and articulate the nuances of traditional Japanese martial arts and being able to fight - which is inherently at odds with the tradition....


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 17, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I’m betting this is drop bear making a little snark regarding past lectures from Chris Parker on the subject of people commenting on traditional Japanese arts without understanding the cultural context. Just a guess.


That was my guess - just wanted to be sure before I replied.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 17, 2019)

dunc said:


> Traditional Japanese martial arts are, well, traditional and Japanese
> So naturally there is a heavy Japanese context


That really depends largely how we define "traditional". Most in my primary art would refer to it as a traditional Japanese art (though Koryu folks would definitely not), and there's only a smattering of Japanese context evident. Other Japanese-originated arts have more, while some have even less.



> But.....
> 
> The underlying principles and essence are, I believe, global in nature and TBH I feel that too many people hide behind the cultural and historical context as that's unquantifiable. It can also give folk a point of differentiation when selling their wares to westerners which creates an unhealthy dynamic I think
> 
> ...


Agree entirely. It's possible to learn (and teach) arts of Japanese origin (traditional or otherwise) without really understanding Japanese culture. And vice-versa.


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## drop bear (Jan 17, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I’m betting this is drop bear making a little snark regarding past lectures from Chris Parker on the subject of people commenting on traditional Japanese arts without understanding the cultural context. Just a guess.



Pretty much.


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## Bujinkami (Apr 13, 2019)

Sean has new book coming out soon on this topic.  Should be an interesting read?


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