# Roeder: No regrets after shooting doctor



## Bob Hubbard (Jan 28, 2010)

*Roeder: No regrets after shooting doctor

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/01/28/abortion.roeder.testifies/index.html?hpt=T1

STORY HIGHLIGHTS*


Scott Roeder says he  has no regrets over killing Dr. George Tiller at church on May 31
Roeder  says abortion is murder, and he acted to save lives of the unborn
Tiller  ran a women's clinic where he performed abortions in Wichita, Kansas
Roeder  testified he thought of various ways to kill Tiller



> (CNN) -- A man on trial for gunning down an abortion provider in church said he had no regrets because "abortion is murder."
> 
> Scott Roder, 51, said he shot and killed Dr. George Tiller as services began on May 31 to save the lives of the unborn.
> 
> ...



"abortion is murder."
"It isn't our  duty to take life, it's our heavenly father's,"
What do you call putting a gun to a mans head in his church and executing him?


"You shall not murder/kill"
Guess this doesn't apply anymore huh? 


_He said he became born again in 1992 after watching an episode of "The  700 Club."_  Pat Robertson.
Explains the insanity.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm assuming because he believes in a god/jesus he will be forgiven his sins and still get into his heaven.

I think Flea has a link on another thread on what should be used on this guy. 

Do you think this guy even know what the word hypocracy means??


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## grydth (Jan 28, 2010)

While I could not disagree more with the practice of late term partial birth abortion, this nutbag shooter is no better than that which he opposes. I hope he gets convicted and spends his remaining existence in a small concrete box.

I guess this supposed "Christian" got an e-mail from the Lord saying that His will was that a murder should be committed in church?

To me, there is no difference between this violent nut and his Islamoloony cousins in the Middle East.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 28, 2010)

I think the guys a piece of hypocritical **** that should be executed in the old Transylvania tradition.....impalement.


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## Carol (Jan 28, 2010)

Kansas has the death penalty.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 28, 2010)

Yes...but by a humane means.


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## Carol (Jan 28, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Yes...but by a humane means.



No matter, he'll have a very long wait on death row until they figure out how to use those needles.


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## MJS (Jan 28, 2010)

What a sick, twisted ****.  Hopefully, the people who are sitting on his jury, will have no regrets about sending this piece of **** to the chair.  My take on abortion....if its done by a professional doctor, then IMO, its nobodies business what someone does.  Do they know the reason behind the abortion?  No.  If someone got raped, and they dont want to carry the scumbags child, they have every right to get one.  While I feel that its the right of the person having the baby, to get one, I also feel that there should be solid reasons behind it.  Getting one, because you were dumb and got yourself pregnant, but didnt really want the child in the first place, well, thats no reason to have one.

These nutjobs, who are so against abortion, are so ****ed in the head in the first place, that they dont see that they're no different than the guy doing the abortion.  He's taking a life and so are they.


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## MJS (Jan 28, 2010)

Carol said:


> Kansas has the death penalty.


 


Bob Hubbard said:


> Yes...but by a humane means.


 


Carol said:


> No matter, he'll have a very long wait on death row until they figure out how to use those needles.


 
And thats the part that sucks.  You get appeal after appeal after appeal, the entire process turns into some epic event.  Is the guy guilty of the crime?  Does the crime fit the death penalty requirements?  If yes, then give the guy no more than a few months to get things in order, strap his *** to the bed, and get it over with.  

Amazing how many bags of **** are sitting on death row here in CT.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 28, 2010)

My position on abortion is simple.

When I can have one, it's an issue for me.
When someone carrying my kid is considering one, it's an issue for me.
Other than that, not my concern, not my place, not my problem.
The person who chooses to have one is the one who has to live with the physical, emotional and mental fallout, not me.

"But Bob, do you think it's right or wrong?"
See above.

"But that's not an answer."
Yes it is.  The USSC said it's legal, therefore it's legal. Beyond that, N.M.P.


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## Flea (Jan 28, 2010)

I think any kind of religious crusade is hubris in the highest degree.  People are trying to elevate themselves to a position of being _more_ powerful than God, under the assumption that the all-powerful master of the universe needs their help.

Roeder should have attended a 12-Step meeting.  "Let go, and let God."

After a blunder like this, I can't help but wonder what his next incarnation will look like ...


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## teekin (Jan 28, 2010)

Flea I don't know what the next incarnation will be but I'm hoping it's a female and I"m hoping somewhere in a 3rd world country.
lori


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## Blade96 (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I think the guys a piece of hypocritical **** that should be executed in the old Transylvania tradition.....impalement.


 
you mean something like romanian ruler vlad the impaler? Ewwww, Bob =]

I dont believe in the death penalty. I think its hypocritical, myself. Someone kills, then the state will turn around and kill them. 

i can say one thing for the pro lifers here (meaning ones in Newfoundland). They actually don't kill anybody nor do they condone anyone like this sick piece of douchenozzle of the highest degree.

If there were Dan ranks given for being a bonehead I'd have to give him a 10th (same as the highest rank we have in the art i do). First for killing people and being a hypocrite of the highest degree, second, for pushing his views on others. also for claiming they know that 'thou shall not kill' actually applies to the unborn (the bible says it doesn't) So much for claiming they follow the Bible and Christianity.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 29, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> you mean something like romanian ruler vlad the impaler? Ewwww, Bob =]



Yup, ol Dracula himself.


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## Flea (Jan 29, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Flea I don't know what the next incarnation will be but I'm hoping it's a female and I"m hoping somewhere in a 3rd world country.
> lori



A really hardcore 3rd world country where birth control doesn't exist and rape victims are prosecuted for adultery.

(Who, me?  Vindictive?  :idunno:  Meh, whatever.)


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## CoryKS (Jan 29, 2010)

The nice thing about trials like this is that you don't have to spend a lot of time trying to build a case.  True believers _want_ you to know what they did.  They're proud of it.  

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584243,00.html



> The jury *deliberated for just 37 minutes* before finding Scott Roeder, 51, of Kansas City, Mo., guilty of premeditated, first-degree murder for putting a gun to the forehead of Dr. George Tiller on May 31 and pulling the trigger.
> 
> Defense attorney Mark Rudy described his case as helpless and hopeless.
> 
> "I've never seen anyone lay himself out as much as Mr. Roeder did," Rudy said after the verdict, referring to his client's confessions.


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## teekin (Jan 30, 2010)

Flea said:


> A really hardcore 3rd world country where birth control doesn't exist and rape victims are prosecuted for adultery.
> 
> (Who, me? Vindictive? :idunno: Meh, whatever.)


 
Where girl children are Sold into brothels at 10 and dead or STD's by 18? YUP that would be the ones Flea. I believe this Earth is a School and that soul needs a lesson, soooooo that'll learn 'em.

lori


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## Omar B (Jan 30, 2010)

People can justify almost any action in the name of some imaginary voice in their head huh?  I hope he's put down like the mad dog he is.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 30, 2010)

Omar B said:


> People can justify almost any action in the name of some imaginary voice in their head huh?



Or by the lack thereof... it does go both ways.


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## Flea (Jan 30, 2010)

Omar B said:


> People can justify almost any action in the name of some imaginary voice in their head huh?  I hope he's put down like the mad dog he is.



No way, man.  The last thing the movement needs is another martyr.  

(Be advised that the above link includes some very graphic photos, a common rhetoric for anti-abortion extremists.  Their choice of music in the video is totally surreal, and illustrates my point perfectly.)

Pax vobiscum.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 30, 2010)

Flea said:


> No way, man. The last thing the movement needs is another martyr.
> 
> (Be advised that the above link includes some very graphic photos, a common rhetoric for anti-abortion extremists. Their choice of music in the video is totally surreal, and illustrates my point perfectly.)
> 
> Pax vobiscum.


 
Wow


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## Blade96 (Jan 30, 2010)

Flea said:


> No way, man. The last thing the movement needs is another martyr.
> 
> (Be advised that the above link includes some very graphic photos, a common rhetoric for anti-abortion extremists. Their choice of music in the video is totally surreal, and illustrates my point perfectly.)
> 
> Pax vobiscum.


 


Ken Morgan said:


> Wow


 
Yes - wow. I know well of paul hill. He was the first person in the usa to be executed for killing an abortion provider and had ties to a group of fundy nutbars called the army of god.

and i cant believe in that video one wingnut actually compared his execution to jesus' crucifiction. Wtf? They never had abortion back then.....so it wasnt even an issue in jesus's time, more than 2,000 years ago! Just another example of them claiming they 'know' thou shall not kill and jesus' concern meant the abolition of woman's reproductive life as well (making women have babies because every conceived fetus 'must' be born no matter what the circumstances)

What arrogance, that these people think they know exactly what a god or Jesus wants.


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## Flea (Jan 30, 2010)

Seriously.  I wouldn't say that anyone opposed to abortion is unstable or dangerous, even if they're militant.  But it's a lightning-rod issue that attracts the flightiest moths to the flame.  I escorted patients at my local clinic for a couple years and I could tell you some real forehead-slappers on some of the protesters.  Only a tiny handful out of the crowd, but ... shee.  I never got really scared for my safety while I was there, but I definitely wondered.  I got threatened once or twice by a protester who picked me out.  This was before I ever thought of taking MA.  A lot of the other escorts were MA'its by coincidence.

My state legislature is in the process of rubber-stamping more anti-abortion measures this session.  My budget is slim, but I need to make another donation to the RCRC.


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## PeteMc (Jan 30, 2010)

Gross video =P... but I would have to say that I am against any abortion personally, but I don't look down on people who get them or are thinking about getting them. And I dont feel bad for the man who shot the doctor... I hope he gets life.. *not death* because I believe that man has no right *unless in self defense* to take a life of another... but that's just my take on it... although the Doctor to me was not a very "righteous" man, he didn't deserver to be executed that's between him and God.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 30, 2010)

Women have always had access to abortions. The old midwives knew very well what herbs to take, or how to physically make it happen. 

Today in many countries it takes place under medical conditions, where the women are 99.99% of the time assured of their safety. No more back alleys or butchers calling themselves doctors.

If you are against abortion then try and have the laws changed, to do anything else, well to do anything like Flea has so blatantly shown us, is fanatical in the worst sense of the word.


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## Flea (Jan 30, 2010)

What Ken said.  Abortion has always been around along with contraception, to varying degrees of safety and effectiveness.

The opposition to abortion leaves me scratching my head - I sincerely don't understand why anyone would feel that way.  I _respect_ people who do.  Until it crosses the line and they try to get coercive.  Then I don my orange vest and hang out at the clinic door.  :mst:

I will say that the vast majority of anti-abortion folk qualify their position with "but who am I to judge someone who gets one."  When I say that that's precisely the pro-choice position, they look surprised.  I think we've all been spoon-fed a lot of inflammatory rhetoric to keep the minions riled up.  We all need to slow down and breathe on this issue.


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## PeteMc (Jan 30, 2010)

Flea said:


> What Ken said.  Abortion has always been around along with contraception, to varying degrees of safety and effectiveness.
> 
> The opposition to abortion leaves me scratching my head - I sincerely don't understand why anyone would feel that way.  I _respect_ people who do.  Until it crosses the line and they try to get coercive.  Then I don my orange vest and hang out at the clinic door.  :mst:
> 
> I will say that the vast majority of anti-abortion folk qualify their position with "but who am I to judge someone who gets one."  When I say that that's precisely the pro-choice position, they look surprised.  I think we've all been spoon-fed a lot of inflammatory rhetoric to keep the minions riled up.  We all need to slow down and breathe on this issue.



Personally, the reason I am not "Pro-Choice" is because of A)My faith B.) Pictures I have seen of embryo's and C.) Some women I have talked to that regret having them. But some people are just all sorts of crazy and they take it to the extreme... I tend to disassociate with those people... But although it may be against my faith I do think that rape/incest abortions would be the only time to get one... but nonetheless I agree that we need to slow down and breathe haha especially if this topic makes you infuriated. =P


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## Flea (Jan 30, 2010)

[yt]9srReCbf0bI&feature[/yt]


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## Carol (Jan 31, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Women have always had access to abortions. The old midwives knew very well what herbs to take, or how to physically make it happen.
> 
> Today in many countries it takes place under medical conditions, where the women are 99.99% of the time assured of their safety. No more back alleys or butchers calling themselves doctors.
> 
> If you are against abortion then try and have the laws changed, to do anything else, well to do anything like Flea has so blatantly shown us, is fanatical in the worst sense of the word.




I think folks that are against abortion should do what my sister and bro-in-law did, which was to open their hearts and homes to some difficult-to-adopt children.  

There are some abortions that are done under circumstances that I do not particularly like.  But to be honest, I find a lot of the anti-abortion rhetoric to be even more vile than abortion itself.  If we as a people truly cared about a child's life as much as the propaganda says we do, then we wouldn't have so many foster children waiting for homes.  Nor would we see the kind of disparity that we see, with disabled children and black male children waiting an average of 12 years to be placed in an adoptive home, if they are ever placed at all. 

Loving ALL foster children enough to give them a permanent home and family....that would be truly "pro-life", yes?


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 31, 2010)

Carol said:


> I think folks that are against abortion should do what my sister and bro-in-law did, which was to open their hearts and homes to some difficult-to-adopt children.
> 
> There are some abortions that are done under circumstances that I do not particularly like. But to be honest, I find a lot of the anti-abortion rhetoric to be even more vile than abortion itself. If we as a people truly cared about a child's life as much as the propaganda says we do, then we wouldn't have so many foster children waiting for homes. Nor would we see the kind of disparity that we see, with disabled children and black male children waiting an average of 12 years to be placed in an adoptive home, if they are ever placed at all.
> 
> Loving ALL foster children enough to give them a permanent home and family....that would be truly "pro-life", yes?


 
:asian:


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## Blade96 (Jan 31, 2010)

PeteMc said:


> PeteMc said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, the reason I am not "Pro-Choice" is because of A)My faith B.) *Pictures I have seen of embryo's* and C.) Some women I have talked to that regret having them. But some people are just all sorts of crazy and they take it to the extreme... I tend to disassociate with those people... But although it may be against my faith I do think that rape/incest abortions would be the only time to get one... but nonetheless I agree that we need to slow down and breathe haha especially if this topic makes you infuriated. =P
> ...


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## Flea (Jan 31, 2010)

Carol said:


> Loving ALL foster children enough to give them a permanent home and family....that would be truly "pro-life", yes?



The need goes a lot further than that.  We need to give real funding to things like affordable day care, domestic violence resources, food banks, CHIP and other subsidized health care, and parenting classes, pass living wage legislation, and on and on.  Then we'd see fewer children in foster care in the first place.

It was a very consistent pattern at the clinic where I volunteered; every so often a woman would change her mind in the waiting room and come back out.  The protesters would all hold hands and pray over her and then send her on her way.  It was always a clinic _escort_ who would then flag her down and tell her about resources like WIC and Medicare that would make a productive difference.  I even pointed that out to a couple of protesters and asked why that was ... their answer was always ":idunno:"   It's too bad, because it would give them a hell of a lot more credibility.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 31, 2010)

Flea said:


> The need goes a lot further than that. We need to give real funding to things like affordable day care, domestic violence resources, food banks, CHIP and other subsidized health care, and parenting classes, pass living wage legislation, and on and on. Then we'd see fewer children in foster care in the first place.
> 
> It was a very consistent pattern at the clinic where I volunteered; every so often a woman would change her mind in the waiting room and come back out. The protesters would all hold hands and pray over her and then send her on her way. It was always a clinic _escort_ who would then flag her down and tell her about resources like WIC and Medicare that would make a productive difference. I even pointed that out to a couple of protesters and asked why that was ... their answer was always ":idunno:" It's too bad, because it would give them a hell of a lot more credibility.


 
You know Flea it's people like you who are the real unsung heros of our society. Thank you.


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## PeteMc (Jan 31, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I'd warn you to beware of looking at those pics of embryos pro lifers might show you. Because often they are distorted and blown up to make you believe they are 'babies' like babies that are already born, I mean they look like them. to make you believe they are 3rd trimester babies and what have you. Very few abortions happen in the third trimester but the pro lifers wont tell you that.  and I know for a fact that at 2 months pregnant (around 60 days) for example an embryo is not mch bigger than a kidney bean. My bro's gf told us all about her pregnancy and showed her ultrasounds and such.  But prolifers who are all sorts of crazy would blow it up, make it seem a fully formed  'baby' You see?
> 
> and I agree lots of pro lifers are all sorts of crazy, 17 different kinds in fact. But I have more respect for ones such as yourself who do make exceptions (such as rape and incest or when the mother's life is in danger. And those who say that its not their place to try and tell others what to do, as flea says they really are Pro Choice and not pro life.


Yeah, I personally believe that as soon as the sperm hits the egg that the baby is being formed... and I view that as life... although some scientist agree and disagree lol. I am glad that you respect the ''pro-lifers'' such as myself =P but there are definately not many of us out there haha I hate when I'm driving down my street and then a crazy woman comes and throws a sign of an aborted fetus on my window... I think that is rude and sends most people the wrong message haha especially when you are pro-life xD


Flea said:


> The need goes a lot further than that. We need to give real funding to things like affordable day care, domestic violence resources, food banks, CHIP and other subsidized health care, and parenting classes, pass living wage legislation, and on and on. Then we'd see fewer children in foster care in the first place.


respect. this is something that is greatly needed.
Pete


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## Flea (Jan 31, 2010)

You're welcome.

There's also the critical question of _quality_ of life, and that gets drowned out in the screaming match.  What's the point of bringing people into the world if it's just hell?  UNICEF estimates that 11 million children under the age of 5 die every year of malnourishment.  And that's just the food issue.  Consider all the other evils that stem from poverty - disease, trafficking, violence ...

In many corners of the world there simply aren't the resources to survive, much less to thrive.  No amount of parental love, good intentions, or prayer will bridge that gap.  Isn't it more "pro-life" to manage our finite resources so we can improve the quality of life for everyone, rather than simply inflating our numbers arbitrarily?  I think we need to re-frame the whole debate.


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## Flea (Jan 31, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> You know Flea it's people like you who are the real unsung heros of our society. Thank you.



I really appreciate that Ken.

Clinic escorting has a high turnover rate.  It's a highly toxic environment in psychological terms, and can be physically dangerous too.  It's very hard to be the target of all that vitriol from the protesters, and to absorb the hate directed at the patients going in.  It sounds cliche, but I've seen "good Christians" shouting WHORE at women going in.  Oh, you were raped?  To bad - two wrongs don't make a right.  Now show a little personal responsibility and read this pamphlet.  I would always make small talk with the patients to distract them - the weather, sports, bad jokes.  Occasionally they would come back outside after the protesters left and thank us.

Ultimately I left because I realized I was absorbing it and turning into some of the protesters - getting just as hateful and obsessive as they were.  It became personal in an unhealthy way. It was making me a liability.  I tried going back once and it didn't work out - I just got all wound up and angry again.  Part of me misses it, mostly because the work is so urgently needed.  I feel like I abandoned my friends.  

Instead, I make donations to groups concerned with reproductive freedom.  That's a valid contribution too, although it doesn't feel the same.


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## Blade96 (Jan 31, 2010)

PeteMc said:


> Yeah, I personally believe that as soon as the sperm hits the egg that the baby is being formed... and I view that as life... although some scientist agree and disagree lol.


 
yeah its alive. anyone who know the difference know that a fertilized egg is alive....a sperm is alive....an egg is alive. its all life. I think the real issue is whether it should have 'personhood' like you and me. is it a 'baby' and there's where we disagree. Personally I cant see 'one cell' or even a blastocyst,  having the same rights and stuff as i do. i have many reasons for that. But meh.


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## Marginal (Jan 31, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I'm assuming because he believes in a god/jesus he will be forgiven his sins and still get into his heaven.



Terrorists get 99 virgins. He'll be happy.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 31, 2010)

Marginal said:


> Terrorists get 99 virgins. He'll be happy.


 
For all of about a week, then he'll be tired of them...

Like TEZ said on another older thread, why would you want a virgin, wouldn't you rather have someone with some experience?


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## Flea (Jan 31, 2010)

Marginal said:


> Terrorists get 99 virgins. He'll be happy.



[yt]nOfp0LHtpV0[/yt]


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> My position on abortion is simple.
> 
> When I can have one, it's an issue for me.
> When someone carrying my kid is considering one, it's an issue for me.
> ...


 
Bob,

I do think abortion is wrong. And I do think abortion is a form of murder. And it's a legaly sanctioned form and that makes it even more disgusting.

BUT, doing murder to stop murder is not right. There are many things one can do to try to stop it. Protest is one, legislation another, shunning and shaming a third. Boycotting would be a forth.

I find it difficult to believe with all these PETA people throwing red paint on people wearing fur that guy could not have done that to him!

Or hey, if it is going to shoot, shoot his hands off! Anything but take his life. 

For killing that one abortionist won't stop abortion. It will have to take a change of heart in society to stop it. Just like it took such a change of heart to stop Gladiatorial fights in ancient Rome. And that won&#8217;t happen overnight.

Deaf


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 1, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Bob,
> 
> I do think abortion is wrong. And I do think abortion is a form of murder. And it's a legaly sanctioned form and that makes it even more disgusting.
> 
> ...


 
If Hitler and Stalin were murdered when they were younger the world would have been better off. No?


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## Marginal (Feb 1, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> For all of about a week, then he'll be tired of them...
> 
> Like TEZ said on another older thread, why would you want a virgin, wouldn't you rather have someone with some experience?



Dennis Miller has an old joke about that too. I gave him a few too many virgins on top of all that. Ah well.


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## Blade96 (Feb 2, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> If Hitler and Stalin were murdered when they were younger the world would have been better off. No?


 
interestingly, hitler and stalin were against abortion.

something i like to bring up whenever nut bars here (and we have some every place does) starts comparing pro - choice people to the gestapo because we have censored their misleading information (I could explain what happened here if someone wants)  and abortion to the holocaust.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 2, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> interestingly, hitler and stalin were against abortion.
> 
> something i like to bring up whenever nut bars here (and we have some every place does) starts comparing pro - choice people to the gestapo because we have censored their misleading information (I could explain what happened here if someone wants) and abortion to the holocaust.


 
That may be true, but they were also eugenists.  They may not have  believed in abortion simply because they believed that all but a certain class of people shouldn't be able to reproduce in the first place, and should be slaughtered in the second place.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 2, 2010)

Flea said:


> The need goes a lot further than that. We need to give real funding to things like affordable day care, domestic violence resources, food banks, CHIP and other subsidized health care, and parenting classes, pass living wage legislation, and on and on. Then we'd see fewer children in foster care in the first place.
> 
> It was a very consistent pattern at the clinic where I volunteered; every so often a woman would change her mind in the waiting room and come back out. The protesters would all hold hands and pray over her and then send her on her way. It was always a clinic _escort_ who would then flag her down and tell her about resources like WIC and Medicare that would make a productive difference. I even pointed that out to a couple of protesters and asked why that was ... their answer was always ":idunno:" It's too bad, because it would give them a hell of a lot more credibility.


 
No offense, but what you're saying is that we should be even more of a facist nation so that we can pay for the mistakes / decisions of others.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 2, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Bob,
> 
> I do think abortion is wrong. And I do think abortion is a form of murder. And it's a legaly sanctioned form and that makes it even more disgusting.
> 
> ...



Yes, But there can be solid reasons for abortion, such as rape, incest (different kind of rape) or life threatening illness to both the mother and the child. I don't think abortion is ever a good solution. I just think it is sometimes the least bad one.

For example if the mother gets blood poisoning (rare but can happen), losing just the child is better than waiting till the mother dies and then losing the child as well. Sometimes life hits you in the face hard, and allowing more people to die than needed, just to uphold personal moral convictions is wrong.

However, killing someone simply because you disagree with them is something on a different scale imo.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 2, 2010)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> No offense, but what you're saying is that we should be even more of a facist nation so that we can pay for the mistakes / decisions of others.



While I am not going to judge on whether or not that is a good thing (that's a separate discussion please) -A- solution is needed. If you are protesting against abortus, fine, but then you should be prepared to discuss other solutions.

Just shouting that you don't like abortion and then refusing to talk about other solutions is not productive. Saying _'we don't care about your problem, we just don't want you to solve it like this'_ will not help.

If preventing abortion is important enough for people to care about, they should be prepared to *help* prevent it, and not just by yelling at people and scaring them. And if it is not important enough that they'd be prepared to do that, they have no reason to harrass people in the first place.

EDIT: This is a bit like the environmentalist nutters who had a one-time influence in our government and used it to break the nuclear sector. They didn't care about working out alternative solutions or acknowledge that we needed the energy. They just rallied against anything nuclear, nevermind that our mox technology was great and we had very little nuclear waste. Nuclear was evil. In the end we lost a part of our high-tech industry and we import nuclear energy from France.


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## Blade96 (Feb 2, 2010)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> That may be true, but they were also eugenists. They may not have believed in abortion simply because they believed that all but a certain class of people shouldn't be able to reproduce in the first place, and should be slaughtered in the second place.


 
true enough, but they were also dictators and dictators don't even like women having control over their own reproductive destinies. 

That and they also wanted to increase the populations of their own countries.


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## Flea (Feb 2, 2010)

This conversation seems to be going the way of most abortion threads/conversations with all the usual arguments.  So in a spirit of equanimity and respect I'll bow out now.  Thanks to all for taking my comments at face value.


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 2, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> If Hitler and Stalin were murdered when they were younger the world would have been better off. No?


 
Wouldn't have to murder them either. 

Ever hear of Bernard Goetz? 

Well only one of the 4 'youths' he shot never committed a crime again. Guess which one and why.

Deaf


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 3, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> If Hitler and Stalin were murdered when they were younger the world would have been better off. No?



No.

WW2 would have happened anyway. Initially, Hitler was chosen by the nazis as a figure head because the man could deliver passioate speaches. But they were already rising in power. Hitler didn't cause WW2. I would even say that the Germans are not all to blame. WW2 would not have happened if the aftermath of WW1 had been handled differently.

And as bad as Hitler was, he was also a nutcase, who took some critically wrong decisions that cost him the war. If he had not broken the non aggression pact with Russia and kept Russia happy as a neutral party, he would have steam rolled right over the rest of Europe.

Had Hitler been shot, WW2 would still have happened. Perhaps his replacement would have been less of a nutcase. He himself would have been martyred which would not have been good either for the allies.

Hitler was the personification of the feelings / hopes / anger / emotions of an entire nation. Shooting him would not have prevented the war, and it might or might not have made things worse. No way to tell, but WW2 wouldn't NOT have happened.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 3, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> No.
> 
> WW2 would have happened anyway. Initially, Hitler was chosen by the nazis as a figure head because the man could deliver passioate speaches. But they were already rising in power. Hitler didn't cause WW2. I would even say that the Germans are not all to blame. WW2 would not have happened if the aftermath of WW1 had been handled differently.
> 
> ...


 
Crap I don't have time to answer properly...

Its all meaningless "what ifs" anyway, but I think I disagree. 

The Nazis didn't rise until Hitler let them use violence against the voters, and rigged the results. Who is to say another leader would have done the same?

After the Germans moved into the Rhineland in 1935, the stage was almsot set. Who's to say another leader would have been so bold? Had the UK and France stood up to teh Nazis then, they would have collapsed.

too many what if's..


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 3, 2010)

There are too many what ifs to say for sure. But it could easily have been worse, rather than better. Shooting or disposing leaders rarely has a straightforward effect. It didn't work as intended in Iran and it didn't work as intended in Iraq either.

I think it is safe to say killing Hitler or Stalin would probably not have had the intended result either. They were children of their time, in a context created by the actions of several countries and tens of millions of people. Hitler represented the sentiments of the majority at the time or he would not have been allowed to grab power like he did.

Standing up to Germany before WW2 was not a simple decisions either, as Both France and the UK were still weakened from WW1 and they were tired of war. Germany otoh had the 'advantage' of being humiliated by the other countries. The nazis had an easy time playing to the German emotions and kicking the patriotism and war machine into gear.


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## searcher (Feb 3, 2010)

I was just talking with my father-in-law about this the other day.     We are all VERY Pro-life in my family, but I am also very much against murder.

I have tried to see both sides of this, but I only seem to end up with my head spinning.     Murder is murder and I wish this thing would never have happened.    Here is the kicker, where do you draw the line?     If they let him off, it will be open season on abortion Drs.    And we cannot have that at all costs.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 4, 2010)

To me, it's simple:

Taking a gun and shooting someone and killing them = murder, according to the law, courts and police.
Going to an abortion clinic and having an abortion != murder, according to the law, courts and police.

You are not the law therefore acting as such is not legal.
Even if you are the law, abortion is legal therefore it is not your place to be judge, jury and executioner to stop it.

There are legal ways to protest without killing I would think...


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 4, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> While I am not going to judge on whether or not that is a good thing (that's a separate discussion please) -A- solution is needed. If you are protesting against abortus, fine, but then you should be prepared to discuss other solutions.
> 
> Just shouting that you don't like abortion and then refusing to talk about other solutions is not productive. Saying _'we don't care about your problem, we just don't want you to solve it like this'_ will not help.
> 
> ...


 
There is a solution... don't get pregnant.

But for some reason, that doesn't seem to be an acceptable answer.  So, rather then a person having to live with the consequences of their negative behavior, we allow them to compound it by killing a child.

The help is out there already though, WIC, AFDC, food stamps, welfare, etc.  Sure, maybe the protestors could actually offer those as alternatives to people.  I get that.  But then again, maybe they disagree with those as well.  Personally, I would point them in the direction of charities and counseling services.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Feb 4, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> true enough, but they were also dictators and dictators don't even like women having control over their own reproductive destinies.
> 
> That and they also wanted to increase the populations of their own countries.


 
I actually disagree with your first statement.  There reasons for being against abortion were your second statement.  In typical leftist fashion, as they were indeed leftist, the needs of the individual become a distant second to the needs of the whole.  They needed a particular group of people to breed in order to create the "Master Race", and they needed a lot of them.  This was not about keeping women from controlling their "reproductive destinies", but them doing what they thought was necessary for the good of mankind, however misguided they might have been.


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## Carol (Feb 4, 2010)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> I actually disagree with your first statement.  There reasons for being against abortion were your second statement.  In typical leftist fashion, as they were indeed leftist, the needs of the individual become a distant second to the needs of the whole.  They needed a particular group of people to breed in order to create the "Master Race", and they needed a lot of them.  This was not about keeping women from controlling their "reproductive destinies", but them doing what they thought was necessary for the good of mankind, however misguided they might have been.



I agree, but the reasons aren't isolated.  Its cause-and-effect, yes?


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