# Differences between snake, crane and northern mantis



## qwerty (Jan 25, 2015)

Hi! 
Does anyone know the differences between snake, crane and northern mantis? The movements seem somewhat similar to me but the fists are different


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## clfsean (Jan 25, 2015)

EH ... you may get several different response here. 

Snake --- it's more of an attribute or technique than a stand alone style. I have seen several different "styles" on the web with lots of descriptions & such, but when looking at them, I only see lots of Shaw Brother techniques.

Crane --- Two different styles. Southern short hand from the Fujian area & Southern long hand, most commonly known as Tibetan White Crane. 

Fujianese is short hand, very qi gong heavy, very focused on short energy and Saam Chin (San Jian) form, aka Three Battles, found in Okinawan karate like Goju Ryu or Uechi Ryu. It's most commonly associated with the naming convention of "Bai He Quan".

Tibetan White Crane is a long hand style, child of Lion's Roar (Si Ji Hao) and sister/child of Lama Pai & Hop Ga. It's very long power generation as compared to Fujianese White Crane. Lots of big motions, big whipping strikes, long strikes, etc... It's most commonly associated with the naming convention of "Bak Hok Pai".

I've never come across a verifiable "Northern White Crane". Tibetan White Crane is mislabeled at times as such, but Tibet itself is in southwestern China. 

Northern Praying Mantis --- There's several different styles of NPM but they all use the 12 keyword formula, 8 hards & 7 softs. They start varying by applications of the core principles or generation of power or focus. 7 Star NPM in Hong Kong is uniquely different than mainland 7 Star NPM. The reason for this (so the stories go) is that the NPM players as they came south into Hong Kong, they had issues with the short hand stylists that permiated the area. So the 7 Star NPM changed the way they approached the core principles into a shorter, quicker more staccato approach as compared to what stayed on the mainland where there's a more pronounced "long fist" feel.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Tibetan White Crane is a long hand style, child of Lion's Roar (Si Ji Hao) and sister/child of Lama Pai & Hop Ga. It's very long power generation as compared to Fujianese White Crane. Lots of big motions, big whipping strikes, long strikes, etc... It's most commonly associated with the naming convention of "Bak Hok Pai".



Would the latter part of that be referred to as "Chinese boxing" Lots of big motions though, for style emphasis or actually that is the technique?


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## clfsean (Jan 26, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Would the latter part of that be referred to as "Chinese boxing" Lots of big motions though, for style emphasis or actually that is the technique?



Actually most everything from China can fall under the moniker "Chinese Boxing" given what Westerner's were told during that late Qing / revolutionary period. To my knowledge there's not one "Chinese Boxing" style or the like. 

As far as the big techniques & all, no that's the technique. It's big expansive power generation that is very easily compressed when the adrenaline turns on.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Actually most everything from China can fall under the moniker "Chinese Boxing" given what Westerner's were told during that late Qing / revolutionary period. To my knowledge there's not one "Chinese Boxing" style or the like.
> 
> As far as the big techniques & all, no that's the technique. It's big expansive power generation that is *very easily compressed* when the adrenaline turns on.



Not sure that I understand that. Do you mean power generation at a shorter range? IE a shorter range punch in distance?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Not sure that I understand that. Do you mean power generation at a shorter range? IE a shorter range punch in distance?


Big movement Is a training methodology that helps you understand how to connect the full body in delivery of your technique.  This is one way to maximize your power, by engaging the full body.  You do not punch with your arm and fist.  You punch with your entire body, from your feet on up to your fist. Once you develope that skill, you can do the same thing with shorter movements and at shorter range.


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## Transk53 (Jan 26, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Big movement Is a training methodology that helps you understand how to connect the full body in delivery of your technique.  This is one way to maximize your power, by engaging the full body.  You do not punch with your arm and fist.  You punch with your entire body, from your feet on up to your fist. Once you develope that skill, you can do the same thing with shorter movements and at shorter range.



Sometimes I feel like a kid in a candy store around here  Thanks for the info, I will be researching that.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Sometimes I feel like a kid in a candy store around here  Thanks for the info, I will be researching that.


There is most definitely a specific method to it.  You need a good sifu who can get you to understand the concept and how the method is designed to get you there.

Of course the long techniques themselves can be very useful all by themselves.  But that just scratches the surface.  In my opinion, the short translation of the techniques are more natural and more versatile in combat.  In the Chinese methods they often say, start with big movements in order to be able to do short movements.  But if you only train short movies ements, you undermine the process and you never come to understand it on the same level.  Unfortunately this stuff can be very difficult to describe, without being able to show.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2015)

clfsean said:


> EH ... you may get several different response here.
> 
> Snake --- it's more of an attribute or technique than a stand alone style. I have seen several different "styles" on the web with lots of descriptions & such, but when looking at them, I only see lots of Shaw Brother techniques.
> 
> ...


What do you know about Omei crane?  I've only seen it in the context of John Allen's Green Dragon Studio in Ohio, and that makes me a bit skeptical about it as a legitimate system.  It's definitely not the Tibetan nor Fijian methods, doesn't look like any kind of offshoot to me.   I had their video for the beginning form for that material many years ago when I was younger and more naive.


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## clfsean (Jan 26, 2015)

That's all I've seen it in ... and the Do IIRC had it listed as well in their great breakdown of what came from what temple.


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> There is most definitely a specific method to it.  You need a good sifu who can get you to understand the concept and how the method is designed to get you there.
> 
> Of course the long techniques themselves can be very useful all by themselves.  But that just scratches the surface.  In my opinion, the short translation of the techniques are more natural and more versatile in combat.  In the Chinese methods they often say, start with big movements in order to be able to do short movements.  But if you only train short movies ements, you undermine the process and you never come to understand it on the same level.  Unfortunately this stuff can be very difficult to describe, without being able to show.



No I believe I have the jist of what you are saying. It makes sense to give your arsenal some longer range weapons. Yeah I believe I understand.


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> What do you know about *Omei crane?*  I've only seen it in the context of John Allen's Green Dragon Studio in Ohio, and that makes me a bit skeptical about it as a legitimate system.  It's definitely not the Tibetan nor Fijian methods, doesn't look like any kind of offshoot to me.   I had their video for the beginning form for that material many years ago when I was younger and more naive.



How could a illegitimate school get away with it? Probably very niave here, but they get found quite quickly no?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> How could a illegitimate school get away with it? Probably very niave here, but they get found quite quickly no?


I don't know, to be honest.  This was part of the curriculum of a school that has offered video instruction since at least the 1980s.  Their curriculum is huge, dozens of forms from dozens of styles, and that makes me wonder if they just collect material without much understanding.  The head sifu makes a point of claiming that all of his material is "authentic" to the point that it implies nobody else's is, it really strikes me as arrogant.  That's my take on it, tho I've never met him nor his people in person, so I hesitate to comment further.

Anyway, the Omei crane set that I played with, from their instructional video, it was just following the movements and a couple applications of the movement, but without any explanation of the theory behind it, or how that system works to develop the fundamental basics.  Example, if they have some version of the long technique to develop full body connection, it was never mentioned.  So I begin to wonder if they understand any of it on that level, or if they too are simple going thru the motions.  Although everyone on their videos tend to look like they are on steroids, including the women, so I guess they at least get into good shape.  At any rate, I don't know where their Omei crane comes from, nor any history of the system, if it is even legitimate.  As far as I know, he is still in operation.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> No I believe I have the jist of what you are saying. It makes sense to give your arsenal some longer range weapons. Yeah I believe I understand.


Well, it isn't just about having some long range weapons.  Rather, when you use large, "exaggerated" movements, your body can sense the different connections more easily, in getting everything to work together as a unit.  So yes, it is technique, but if you only think of it in that way then you never grasp what is underneath it, what is more important.  The large movement really is a training methodology meant to instill greater skills than simply having an arsenal of techniques.  It's a skill with which you can turn any movement into a technique, even if that movement is not a "proper" technique at all.

Where do you live?  If you ever travel to San francisco I might be persuaded to take a little time and show you what I mean.


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know, to be honest. This was part of the curriculum of a school that has offered video instruction since at least the 1980s. Their curriculum is huge, dozens of forms from dozens of styles, and that makes me wonder if they just collect material without much understanding. The head sifu makes a point of claiming that all of his material is "authentic" to the point that it implies nobody else's is, it really strikes me as arrogant. That's my take on it, tho I've never met him nor his people in person, so I hesitate to comment further.



Yeah no problem.




Flying Crane said:


> Anyway, the Omei crane set that I played with, from their instructional video, it was just following the movements and a couple applications of the movement, but without any explanation of the theory behind it, or how that system works to develop the fundamental basics. Example, if they have some version of the long technique to develop full body connection, it was never mentioned. So I begin to wonder if they understand any of it on that level, or if they too are simple going thru the motions. Although everyone on their videos tend to look like they are on steroids, including the women, so I guess they at least get into good shape. At any rate, I don't know where their Omei crane comes from, nor any history of the system, if it is even legitimate. As far as I know, he is still in operation.



Not sure what to say really, guess the authorities don't either.


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Where do you live? If you ever travel to San francisco I might be persuaded to take a little time and show you what I mean.



Bold statement there. Yes it does sound intriguing though, maybe I might persuade myself to be polite and ask for a little time.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 27, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Big movement Is a training methodology that helps you understand how to connect the full body in delivery of your technique.  This is one way to maximize your power, by engaging the full body.  You do not punch with your arm and fist.  You punch with your entire body, from your feet on up to your fist. Once you develope that skill, you can do the same thing with shorter movements and at shorter range.



That is what Chenshi taijiquan Chan Si Jin is all about


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There really are no authorities when it comes right down to it.  China is huge, the number of different systems that have never been seen in the west simply because nobody who practices it has yet migrated is huge.  There are many many local village systems that are only practiced by a clannish group in a remote area, we simply never see them and do not even know that they exist.  It's entirely possible that a couple dozen other crane methods do in fact exist, we've just never hear of them for these reasons.  So if someone says, "I practice XYZ method". It can be a little hard to argue the point because in the end, I don't know if it's true or not.  Might just be something that is rare and I've never heard of it.


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## Transk53 (Jan 27, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> There really are no authorities when it comes right down to it.  China is huge, the number of different systems that have never been seen in the west simply because nobody who practices it has yet migrated is huge.  There are many many local village systems that are only practiced by a clannish group in a remote area, we simply never see them and do not even know that they exist.  It's entirely possible that a couple dozen other crane methods do in fact exist, we've just never hear of them for these reasons.  So if someone says, "I practice XYZ method". It can be a little hard to argue the point because in the end, I don't know if it's true or not.  Might just be something that is rare and I've never heard of it.



Maybe, but that makes sense. True or not, nice


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## yak sao (Jan 28, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> How could a illegitimate school get away with it? Probably very niave here, but they get found quite quickly no?



If only that were true. A lot of charlatans out  there


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## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

yak sao said:


> If only that were true. A lot of charlatans out  there



Yes. I can never comprehend how people can do that. That would be like myself walking into a MMA gym and proclaiming that I know MMA, just because of exposure to Muay Thia. Surely these people should be prosecuted for a criminal act. It would be if a student injured themselves while in the Dojo or whatever. Not too mention that how can a instructor teach in the first place. You need some kind of license or certification no?


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## clfsean (Jan 28, 2015)

No. Here in the US it's truly a "caveat emptor" rule & I'm ok with that. I don't want another layer of gov't. The less than credible are normally found out in short order & fade away in the background. Sometimes though they have a top marketing team & they stay longer than they should while the most credible do the fading act. It works out to be about equal though.


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## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

clfsean said:


> No. Here in the US it's truly a "caveat emptor" rule & I'm ok with that. I don't want another layer of gov't. The less than credible are normally found out in short order & fade away in the background. Sometimes though they have a top marketing team & they stay longer than they should while the most credible do the fading act. It works out to be about equal though.



Probably the same over here I would imagine. I can understand red tape and all of that, I don't think that should be the case. Someone could get seriously hurt, or worse, with an instructor of dubious credentials.


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## dlcox (Jan 29, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Anyway, the Omei crane set that I played with, from their instructional video, it was just following the movements and a couple applications of the movement, but without any explanation of the theory behind it, or how that system works to develop the fundamental basics.  Example, if they have some version of the long technique to develop full body connection, it was never mentioned.  So I begin to wonder if they understand any of it on that level, or if they too are simple going thru the motions.  Although everyone on their videos tend to look like they are on steroids, including the women, so I guess they at least get into good shape.  At any rate, I don't know where their Omei crane comes from, nor any history of the system, if it is even legitimate.  As far as I know, he is still in operation.


 
Interesting post fellas. 

Emei Crane, that's an enigma. There are actually some, what many would refer to as "Village" methods, of crane near that area. Mostly blends of Tibetan Bai He Pai with Bai Mei, Yong Chun and Long Xing. Which is interesting considering that all the oral legends state that these arts were in part or whole created by Wu Mei and that the Tibetan, Sichuan and Yunan areas is where the Crane originates. But as a specific Emei Temple Crane style.....Never seen or heard of it, most of the Emei systems are more modern than they would have you believe.

As for the relationship between Snake, Crane and Mantis....It is said that Crane is the mother of Southern Mantis and Dragon. Many techniques of Crane and Snake are very similar in shape, energy and usage. Both are considered internal or soft methods, the major difference between the two is movement. Snake stays in place Crane moves around. Northern Mantis shares many similarities as well with Crane but I think this has to do more with the fact that both have influences from Northern CMA than anything to do with animal attributes.


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## qianfeng (Jan 30, 2015)

Most of the small village styles all have a baike(Chinese Wikipedia) page to them. If u type the name in Chinese comes up most of the time. Easy way to check if the style is legit or not. Or u could ask around Chinese forums at least one person would be practicing the said obscure style.


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