# immediate violence warning signals



## Flea (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm compiling some information for a workshop I'm giving on de-escalation.  I'd like to include something on what physical behaviors you'd need to recognize when someone is about to pop - shifting their weight, clenching their fists, etc.

I've seen this stuff online, and we've discussed it here before, but I can't seem to find any articles at the moment.  Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance ...


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2010)

Attitude is everything. Watch what they do, listen to what they say, and you will begin to get a picture of what they are about at that moment.
Sean


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## Flea (Feb 12, 2010)

Thank you.  I'm putting together an information packet.  Do you know of any articles (preferably online!) that I could print off?  I googled several different variations of "violence warning sign" and got mostly articles on domestic violence.  Also important, but not really what I need.  

I'm looking more for an interaction with someone who's already agitated, either a stranger or an acquaintance.


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## terryl965 (Feb 12, 2010)

There are always too may varibles, the best thing is to go to a police training seminar and ask them question about signs.


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## kungfu penguin (Feb 12, 2010)

nostrils flaring eyes, opening wide, getting really quiet, aggressively getting in your space,  hands flexing  opening closing,  breathing rate change, barely perceptible nods to have his buddies help out, those are a few i know not all


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2010)

kungfu penguin said:


> nostrils flaring eyes, opening wide, getting really quiet, aggressively getting in your space, hands flexing opening closing, breathing rate change, barely perceptible nods to have his buddies help out, those are a few i know not all


Don't forget the guys that start to turn away and quickly turn back.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2010)

Once you start seeing warning signs, it might be a good time to watch your damn mouth. Too many people ostensibly beg to be beaten.
sean


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 12, 2010)

Flea said:


> I'm compiling some information for a workshop I'm giving on de-escalation.  I'd like to include something on what physical behaviors you'd need to recognize when someone is about to pop - shifting their weight, clenching their fists, etc.
> 
> I've seen this stuff online, and we've discussed it here before, but I can't seem to find any articles at the moment.  Can anyone point me in the right direction?
> 
> Thanks in advance ...



I don't know how useful you'll find this, but it looks basically OK to me:

http://tkdtutor.com/07Defense/ConfrontationProgression/ConfrontationProgression01.htm

From that list, the chin drop is a classic.  If someone faces me and is in too close, voice got some bass in it, angry words, and then the chin drops?  The moment I see that chin come down, it's game on.  I'm not waiting for the haymaker that's coming, he's never even going to draw it back.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 12, 2010)

Follow this link and read the thread.  There are descriptions of various "pre-assault cues," reasons that they occur, and photos to give an idea of what they look like.  You have to register for the forum but it's worth your time.
http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=770

The guy who wrote the article gives the best explanation of "pre-fight" issues that I've ever heard/seen.  I had the opportunity to train with him this past summer (my review of the course is posted here) and it was, IMO, some of the most valuable training I've had to date.


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## Flea (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks everyone!  Bill, I shamelessly cut and pasted from that article for my information packet.  It's a presentation for a niche-group with unique concerns and I _never_ expect to need this information in this setting.  But even if my expectations play out and it's a waste of trees, perhaps someone will find it helpful in another area of their lives.

Kenpo-Tex, I registered for that forum and I'm just waiting for the confirmation email so I can get in.  It looks interesting!


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## AlanE (Feb 12, 2010)

I agree with "the get real quiet" comment. 

Also, there's also a difference in pre-fight signals between a fighter and a trouble-maker. In this context I'm saying a trouble-maker is dangerous but less skilled. As much as I like to put someone at ease, there are times when my silence is a clear shift - troubles coming. Perhaps it's from more places than in front of me and I want to see and hear everything without emotion (common).

My wife worked with me and broke a bad habit I had years ago when I was so protective of my young family. Ex: Seeing a fake caller on a pay phone waiting to prey on people outside our usual video store would just bring my stare and hope for an aggressive movement (it was a dark parking lot that had a few incidents). Luckily, and you know why, she improved me well beyond those embarassing days. That could get us all killed. What not to do wasn't you're question, though, sorry, Flea! That's for another thread.

Have fun, I think it's awesome! Who is your audience?


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## AlanE (Feb 12, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Once you start seeing warning signs, it might be a good time to watch your damn mouth. Too many people ostensibly beg to be beaten.
> sean


That's pretty funny.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 12, 2010)

Lots of good stuff out here for sure... I've seen in my experience people standing around, loose, relaxed, even with a pleasant look on their face and talking amiably with whomever and POW! Outta nowhere comes a right cross or a left-hook or a kick in the groin or... whatever. 
My point is you can NEVER be 100% sure what any one is going to do at any given time. PLUS if you're in a situation where there is more than one person around... you can't watch EVERYONE.... Thus an axiom I learned was Expect The Unexpected. As for the person I'm talking to... I try to make sure (unless I know them well enough) to keep them so that they have to take a step-forward towards me to do anything. Even with a "trusted" individual I'll watch their hands, face, eyes, and read whatever I can off their body language and even then... some guard is up. 
Exactly what I read is ... :idunno: something that I can't consciously think of or even try to... I rely upon my own instincts and listen for a little voice in my head that hasn't failed to warn me when I needed it.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 12, 2010)

The Quiet I have to agree with, yet you can also add in that light laughter that some recognize as the I do not care laugh, to the I am going to enjoy this laugh. 

The one that got me was the physical violence on their ownself. Hitting themselves so that their adrenaline and pain response already has happened before the the fight begins.


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## Brian King (Feb 12, 2010)

A decent article Flea with what I think you are looking for starting around page 70 or so of the PDF (45 in the booklet)
http://www.lubrinco.com/7steps.pdf

A couple of articles from a law enforcement perspective
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/articles/1660205-Pre-attack-indicators-Conscious-recognition-of-telegraphed-cues/

http://www.policeone.com/law-enforcement-newsletter/Calibre-Press-Newsline-03-20-08

You can google pre attack or pre assault cues for a bunch of other articles.

Good luck with the work shop

Brian King


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## jks9199 (Feb 13, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> Lots of good stuff out here for sure... I've seen in my experience people standing around, loose, relaxed, even with a pleasant look on their face and talking amiably with whomever and POW! Outta nowhere comes a right cross or a left-hook or a kick in the groin or... whatever.
> My point is you can NEVER be 100% sure what any one is going to do at any given time. PLUS if you're in a situation where there is more than one person around... you can't watch EVERYONE.... Thus an axiom I learned was Expect The Unexpected. As for the person I'm talking to... I try to make sure (unless I know them well enough) to keep them so that they have to take a step-forward towards me to do anything. Even with a "trusted" individual I'll watch their hands, face, eyes, and read whatever I can off their body language and even then... some guard is up.
> Exactly what I read is ... :idunno: something that I can't consciously think of or even try to... I rely upon my own instincts and listen for a little voice in my head that hasn't failed to warn me when I needed it.


It's very rare that violence occurs without precursors -- with the exception of predatory violence like an ambush blitz attack.  (The precursors there are in the stalk, and if you aren't aware you're being stalked, you won't see them.)  but it's very, very easy to miss the precursors or dismiss them...

I've shared this account before -- but it highlights this well.  Several years ago, my partner and I responded to a domestic dispute.  We get there, and realize that the suspect was a guy she'd arrested for DUI a week or two previously, at which time he'd been 100% cooperative.  This time, his wife or son had called because he was drunk, and they were afraid -- though he hadn't hit anyone yet.  They just wanted him to leave...  and he's talking on the phone.  Turns away when we get to the house, and doesn't even acknowledge that we're talking to his wife.  We try to talk to him -- and he turns away.  My partner goes over to tap him on the shoulder and get his attention... and he backfists her.  Knocks her down, phone explodes, and I end up making my way around to him, and arranging a quick introduction to the sofa and the effects of gravity for him..  The fact that the sofa got in the way is the only reason he didn't get to meet Mr. Floor instead of Mr. Sofa...  (FYI -- my partner wasn't hurt, except her pride.)

Now... at the moment, it seemed like this meek guy who'd been completely cooperative suddenly became violent.  But actually there were several warnings...  First thing to note:  different turf produces different responses.  Somebody in their home is not going to respond the same as someone in the street.  Second: he ignored us on arrival.  Third: he ignored attempts to speak to him.  Fourth: he moved from ignoring to actively disregarding our presence.  So we missed at least 4 reasons to expect more violent resistance... They were apparent in hindsight -- but we missed them at the time.

Two things to take away from this:  One, context matters.  Different places, different elements, and you get different signals and reactions.  Don't let prior incidents lull you -- or goad you.  Second, cues are often there -- but only when you look for them.


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## seasoned (Feb 13, 2010)

Flea, I took this course a few years ago. Check out the site and see if it helps.









 MOAB® training presents principles, techniques, and skills for recognizing, reducing, and *managing violent and aggressive behavior*. The program also provides humane and compassionate methods of dealing with aggressive people both in and out of the *workplace*.

MOAB® Training International, Inc. is a respected leader among training and consulting organizations and specializes in programs on managing aggressive behavior. Since 1983, over 5,000 agencies have benefited from our highly researched, state-of-the-art programs including corporations, healthcare, law enforcement organizations, security, academic, military, federal agencies and gaming establishments.​


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## Flea (Feb 13, 2010)

I just wanted to extend another big thank-you to everyone for your responses.  I've been looking these links up as we go and it's fascinating stuff.

The workshop is on Tuesday night.  I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 15, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Once you start seeing warning signs, it might be a good time to watch your damn mouth. Too many people ostensibly beg to be beaten.
> sean



+1.

I've been in a couple of situations like this when I was a small kid and sometimes got into a conflict. If the other party is only out to appear the top dog and not actually intent on being violent, it can help if you let him or her 'win' / get the upper hand in a controlled manner.

For example, As a young teen I have once been in a situation where my street smarts hadn't caught up with my big nerdy mouth, and I insulted the girlfriend of someone who was in a group of 'wrong people'. At one point they cornered me and the boyfriend came up to me.

Now, I noticed that he really didn't want to hurt me but he had to do something or lose face, since his girlfriend had complained and his mates were there looking at him. He gave me a punch that was really more pro-forma than meant to hurt. He could've easily done real damage but he didn't. At some level it was really funny, because he felt as bad having to do this (because I was really below him in strength and size) as I felt to be there.

So I made enough of a show pretending that it had hurt while looking into his eyes and we both knew what was going on. The external appearances satisfied, they left and I never saw them again.

Am I advocating that people should let themselves be pushed around? No. Definitely not. But even if you are in a conflict where you can't win on force or run away, there can be strategies that deescalate the situation or end it with a token loss. It all depends on how well you can read the context of the situation and if there is anything you can do with that. It's a gamble.

But in my case then, I could not run, and I definitely could not win against that guy (let alone his 4 friends) so I won by losing. Had I thrown some oil on the fire or refused to take this way out, I would have gotten a good beating that could have cost me my teeth or a broken nose because they were that kind of people.

Winning is not about beating the other guy. Winning is about getting home.


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## xJOHNx (Feb 15, 2010)

I've only seen the warning signs once. Most of the times people start to "cramp" up at the trapezoid/shoulder region, hunching forward, tucking their chin in as bill said. But no other signs of agression rising.

Then again, I know someone who starts laughing when he gets into a fight. Pretty normal guy, until the 5 fingers come out.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 15, 2010)

This video clip gives some excellent cues.  The gentleman who made it practices FMA and is an LEO.

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