# Self-Defense for the Visually Impaired



## Justin Chang (Oct 1, 2018)

I have been asked to teach a Self-Defense course to a group of 20 or so visually impaired adults. Anyone have experience teaching blind or visually impaired individuals with any suggestions, drills, or tips? Most of the course will be the same as every other Self-Defense course I've taught with some minor changes but any other people's perspectives is greatly appreciated. 

-Thanks Justin


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 1, 2018)

Justin Chang said:


> Most of the course will be the same as every other Self-Defense course I've taught with some minor changes


that could be a problem but i dont know what you already teach.  quite honestly they might be better off with BJJ since its all tactile based.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 1, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> that could be a problem but i dont know what you already teach.  quite honestly they might be better off with BJJ since its all tactile based.



I understand the reasoning for choosing BJJ techniques as they would maintain in contact with their attacker but I don't think it would be a good idea for someone visually impaired to go down on the ground in a defense situation unless they absolutely have too, especially if there is the possibility of multiple attackers.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 1, 2018)

Currently I teach awareness and avoidance skills, conflict de-escalation, stances movement and blocking, striking and target acquisition, weapon use/defense/disarms and retention, ground work, and escape techniques.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 1, 2018)

Justin Chang said:


> I understand the reasoning for choosing BJJ techniques as they would maintain in contact with their attacker but I don't think it would be a good idea for someone visually impaired to go down on the ground in a defense situation unless they absolutely have too, especially if there is the possibility of multiple attackers.


lets not get all hollywood here.  if your attacked by multiple attackers your screwed never mind if your blind as well.  running away doesnt seem to be a very viable option here so it would be best to control the attacker while minamizing damage and wait for help.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 1, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> lets not get all hollywood here.  if your attacked by multiple attackers your screwed never mind if your blind as well.  running away doesnt seem to be a very viable option here so it would be best to control the attacker while minamizing damage and wait for help.



Agreed, but that doesn't mean you need to go to the ground. Just like it isn't Hollywood it also isn't UFC.  You can disable a person without having to hold them on the ground until the police arrive.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 1, 2018)

Justin Chang said:


> I understand the reasoning for choosing BJJ techniques as they would maintain in contact with their attacker but I don't think it would be a good idea for someone visually impaired to go down on the ground in a defense situation unless they absolutely have too, especially if there is the possibility of multiple attackers.


Actually, the ground makes more sense for them than for most folks. They can't reasonably defend against multiple attackers, because they can't effectively use furniture and the other attackers. They have to focus on one at a time. And most attacks/fights (not all, but most) will not involve a group attack. BJJ gives them the advantage of not having to worry about tripping over something during the altercation. Grappling, in general will have to be their primary answer (given the limitations of their targeting), and getting the advantages inherent in groundwork makes a lot of sense if you're working without sight or with very limited vision, unless you're in very familiar surroundings.


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## wab25 (Oct 1, 2018)

If these people are visually impaired, they may be carrying some kind of cane with them. I would take advantage of that weapon and teach a few Jo and or Hanbo techniques.


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## jobo (Oct 1, 2018)

Justin Chang said:


> I understand the reasoning for choosing BJJ techniques as they would maintain in contact with their attacker but I don't think it would be a good idea for someone visually impaired to go down on the ground in a defense situation unless they absolutely have too, especially if there is the possibility of multiple attackers.


well yes, m y mate got attacked by a blind man onc e, and the blind guy was doing well at the blind wresseling till I joined in, , but that's ALL you have, so its either that or let themselves get beaten up


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## now disabled (Oct 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, the ground makes more sense for them than for most folks. They can't reasonably defend against multiple attackers, because they can't effectively use furniture and the other attackers. They have to focus on one at a time. And most attacks/fights (not all, but most) will not involve a group attack. BJJ gives them the advantage of not having to worry about tripping over something during the altercation. Grappling, in general will have to be their primary answer (given the limitations of their targeting), and getting the advantages inherent in groundwork makes a lot of sense if you're working without sight or with very limited vision, unless you're in very familiar surroundings.




Agreed 

It make more sense to teach techs that involve contact as that should be easier (not the right word) for a person with limited vision or none to absorb, I am saying that as their other senses may be more "tuned in" (again may be not the correct word). 

It could also be that you may have to actually tailor a program more acutely to those who have some sight to those who unfortunately have none. 

Sorry this might seem very obtuse, Find out what experience if any the folks have ie if the person has lost their sight or had it impaired and before said they say had some form of training then utilize that and build on that.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 2, 2018)

Not all "grappling" is done from your back on the ground. Some of it actually happens when standing.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 2, 2018)

The issue with teaching BJJ would be if the instructor himself doesn't know BJJ. He can only teach what he knows. Or recommend a different instructor who is better at grappling.


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## dvcochran (Oct 2, 2018)

Justin Chang said:


> I have been asked to teach a Self-Defense course to a group of 20 or so visually impaired adults. Anyone have experience teaching blind or visually impaired individuals with any suggestions, drills, or tips? Most of the course will be the same as every other Self-Defense course I've taught with some minor changes but any other people's perspectives is greatly appreciated.
> 
> -Thanks Justin


The best advise I can think of is to teach all the verbal and common sense defense standards. I would not recommend teaching anything that puts them in contact with an attacker so a lot is off the table. Maybe ask them how they use their other senses on a daily basis and try to glean something from that?
My second advise would be have a lot of liability release forms on hand.


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## Danny T (Oct 2, 2018)

Awareness, avoidance skills, conflict de-escalation are all very important skills.
Visually impaired/blind persons need a tactile reference to know where they are in relation to an opponent.
I presently have 2 blind persons and another who is legally blind but can see movements. We do a lot of wing chun tactile drills, standing grappling, and ground work with them.


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## dvcochran (Oct 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, the ground makes more sense for them than for most folks. They can't reasonably defend against multiple attackers, because they can't effectively use furniture and the other attackers. They have to focus on one at a time. And most attacks/fights (not all, but most) will not involve a group attack. BJJ gives them the advantage of not having to worry about tripping over something during the altercation. Grappling, in general will have to be their primary answer (given the limitations of their targeting), and getting the advantages inherent in groundwork makes a lot of sense if you're working without sight or with very limited vision, unless you're in very familiar surroundings.


I cannot agree with grappling being the preferred SD method. This assumes they are not knocked out by the first/sucker punch. Avoidance has to be their first line of defense. I know it isn't PC but they are exceptionally handicapped in a one on one SD scenario so the probability of an attack has to be absolutely minimized.


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## Danny T (Oct 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot agree with grappling being the preferred SD method. This assumes they are not knocked out by the first/sucker punch. Avoidance has to be their first line of defense. I know it isn't PC but they are exceptionally handicapped in a one on one SD scenario so the probability of an attack has to be absolutely minimized.


I believe he was referencing bjj vs trying to stand and fight if it got to the point of physically defending ones self.


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## dvcochran (Oct 2, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I believe he was referencing bjj vs trying to stand and fight if it got to the point of physically defending ones self.


Either way, I don't see how the risk isn't too great for a bad outcome before getting their hands on the attacker.  I commend you for working with the seeing impaired.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> The issue with teaching BJJ would be if the instructor himself doesn't know BJJ. He can only teach what he knows. Or recommend a different instructor who is better at grappling.


Agreed. If I was asked, I'd have to give serious thought to whether I have sufficient curriculum to offer that works (I probably do). If not, I'd reach out to someone who has a better-fitted repertoire.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The best advise I can think of is to teach all the verbal and common sense defense standards. I would not recommend teaching anything that puts them in contact with an attacker so a lot is off the table. Maybe ask them how they use their other senses on a daily basis and try to glean something from that?
> My second advise would be have a lot of liability release forms on hand.


Which brings up another point for the OP: you'll need some way for them to use your waiver forms and such. Be sure to cover that topic with your contact fairly early. If most of them read braille, you'll need someone to transcribe them for you. If some can read with magnification, you may need large-print copies for them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Awareness, avoidance skills, conflict de-escalation are all very important skills.
> Visually impaired/blind persons need a tactile reference to know where they are in relation to an opponent.
> I presently have 2 blind persons and another who is legally blind but can see movements. We do a lot of wing chun tactile drills, standing grappling, and ground work with them.


I thought I remembered someone having experience with teaching visually impaired and blind, but couldn't remember who. The WC drills - are those the connectivity drills (my term, probably not correct) that work on keeping a connection to feel the next intention?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot agree with grappling being the preferred SD method. This assumes they are not knocked out by the first/sucker punch. Avoidance has to be their first line of defense. I know it isn't PC but they are exceptionally handicapped in a one on one SD scenario so the probability of an attack has to be absolutely minimized.


Um, pretty much all physical SD work is based on the premise that we're not knocked out on first punch. I don't see how that premise changes for someone who's blind.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Either way, I don't see how the risk isn't too great for a bad outcome before getting their hands on the attacker.  I commend you for working with the seeing impaired.


What are you suggesting is the better approach?


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## now disabled (Oct 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Um, pretty much all physical SD work is based on the premise that we're not knocked out on first punch. I don't see how that premise changes for someone who's blind



That is for certain.

I would think that any person who has sight impairment, would possibly be more at home (not the right phrase) with contact. I know with the disabilities I have, that my body all on it's own compensates for things that do not function at 100%. I would think that a person with sight impairment would be the same? I have no direct experience with sight loss or impairment but I have seen a fair few that are remarkable in how they seem to adapt and cope with said impairments, their sense of touch and hearing to me seemed to be heightened and they could (I do not know the correct words) almost feel their way and describe things without sight. 

It a difficult project and to any person that undertakes same gets my total respect. It something that is worthwhile and imo very rewarding to assist a person and try and find ways to allow then to overcome. 

I'd think just from the little I have experienced that- yes all the verbal and avoidance things have to be covered; just like with any class or project that way, maybe more thought has to go into certain aspects that way to tailor it to persons with sight loss or impairment- but a tactile (if that the correct word) approach may play into their strengths as it were.


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## Danny T (Oct 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I thought I remembered someone having experience with teaching visually impaired and blind, but couldn't remember who. The WC drills - are those the connectivity drills (my term, probably not correct) that work on keeping a connection to feel the next intention?


We use several WC chi sao development drills, wrestling pummeling & Muay Thai  clinch, and some takedown drills. It is all about being able to physically control the opponent and prevent them from striking if/when is comes to that. Major problem for the sighted impaired they have to survive the first strike/s.


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## now disabled (Oct 3, 2018)

Danny T said:


> We use several WC chi sao development drills, wrestling pummeling & Muay Thai  clinch, and some takedown drills. It is all about being able to physically control the opponent and prevent them from striking if/when is comes to that. Major problem for the sighted impaired they have to survive the first strike/s.




Sir, you have my upmost respect in what you are doing and how you are trying to use the skills you have and adapt them to be of use to those with sight impairment.


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## Danny T (Oct 3, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Sir, you have my upmost respect in what you are doing and how you are trying to use the skills you have and adapt them to be of use to those with sight impairment.


Thank you. They are good people and a pleasure to work with. One was a marine sniper and being able to work with him has been quite an experience. I have learned a lot from working with him.


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## now disabled (Oct 3, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Thank you. They are good people and a pleasure to work with. One was a marine sniper and being able to work with him has been quite an experience. I have learned a lot from working with him.



You are more than welcome sir, Keep it up and may you have more good experiences. 

Tell the Marine from me to hang tight and to keep overcoming and adapting he is special and in you sir has a person that can facilitate him still being able to channel his in born and taught talents ...............just tell him well just tell him a guy that has looked down a scope is thinking of him


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## now disabled (Oct 3, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Thank you. They are good people and a pleasure to work with. One was a marine sniper and being able to work with him has been quite an experience. I have learned a lot from working with him.




 That feeling that no one that has never had to do it will ever know. That he did save his friends lives and that he should always be proud of and never let any one take that away. Tell him if he ever needs a spotter give me a shout as I am sure that he still could hit the mark. My trigger finger is goosed but if he supplies that and the breathing I will supply the eyes ................I am so totally and completely honored (not the proper phrase but hopefully you get the meaning) that you sir are doing as you are and letting a man, who has paid his dues, go on and have some purpose and be allowed to express his talents in another way. 

Sir, I salute you you are indeed a good man


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## skribs (Oct 3, 2018)

We don't have any techniques at my school to defend against the visually impaired.

Wait, I may have read the subject line wrong.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2018)

skribs said:


> We don't have any techniques at my school to defend against the visually impaired.
> 
> Wait, I may have read the subject line wrong.


That was, surprisingly, the funniest post I've read today. Thank you.


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## BigMotor (Oct 3, 2018)

You would not like my advice, so I will refrain from giving it, it involves violent defense.


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

Justin Chang said:


> I have been asked to teach a Self-Defense course to a group of 20 or so visually impaired adults. Anyone have experience teaching blind or visually impaired individuals with any suggestions, drills, or tips? Most of the course will be the same as every other Self-Defense course I've taught with some minor changes but any other people's perspectives is greatly appreciated.
> 
> -Thanks Justin



20 handguns


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 3, 2018)

BigMotor said:


> You would not like my advice, so I will refrain from giving it, it involves violent defense.


Then why post anything?


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## dvcochran (Oct 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What are you suggesting is the better approach?


I don't have one. Except what I said in a previous post about teaching all the verbal and environmental skills they can. I do wonder how effective some form of situational awareness training could be.


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## dvcochran (Oct 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Um, pretty much all physical SD work is based on the premise that we're not knocked out on first punch. I don't see how that premise changes for someone who's blind.


The premise that the seeing person will hopefully have at least some awareness that something is going down. It would be incredible to find that some blind people could be aware of an attack beforehand.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The premise that the seeing person will hopefully have at least some awareness that something is going down. It would be incredible to find that some blind people could be aware of an attack beforehand.


There's a different level of risk, yes. But not all attacks start with a knockout punch. In fact, I'd guess - and it's only a guess - that attackers are less cautious when they know they're attacking someone with limited vision, so might be less likely to go for a first-strike KO. In any case, all any of us can train for (physically) is the fight we actually stay awake to participate in. The concept is the same for someone who's blind.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I don't have one. Except what I said in a previous post about teaching all the verbal and environmental skills they can. I do wonder how effective some form of situational awareness training could be.


The situational awareness skills would need some retuning. I don't focus much on hearing for myself, but that would obviously become a bigger factor for someone who can't depend upon sight.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 5, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> The issue with teaching BJJ would be if the instructor himself doesn't know BJJ. He can only teach what he knows


This point is important, and not just regarding BJJ.

Verbal de-escalation is commonly cited as an important self-defense skill and it is. What are the qualifications of the average martial arts instructor to teach anything on that subject beyond what a student with moderate social skills likely knows already? I'd go to a seminar taught by someone like Ellis Amdur on verbal de-escalation because he has years of professional experience with the topic. Most martial arts instructors can't say the same.

The same goes for awareness and avoidance. Once you get past a few simple principles that plenty of non-martial artists already know (don't walk down the sidewalk staring at your smart phone, don't abuse intoxicants, don't hang out with people who abuse intoxicants, even responsible intoxicant use should only be occur in the company of people you trust, don't hang out in places where fights regularly occur, etc, etc), most martial arts instructors don't have any special knowledge or insight about how to spot real world threats. (In fact, I've seen some instructors repeating urban myths about the sort of attacks that don't really happen while never mentioning circumstances which are much more likely.)

I've gotten some good guidance from people I trust on these topics and have enough life experience that I think my awareness/avoidance/de-escalation skills are sufficient for my personal needs. I could probably offer some helpful advice to some people depending on their circumstances. I don't know that I would feel qualified to offer a general purpose seminar on those subjects.

Recognizing the limitations of our expertise is critical - avoidance, de-escalation, striking, clinching, ground-fighting, weapons use, legal principles, dealing with emotional aftereffects, etc - we need to know what areas we actually have expertise in and in which of those areas we can effectively pass on our expertise.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This point is important, and not just regarding BJJ.
> 
> Verbal de-escalation is commonly cited as an important self-defense skill and it is. What are the qualifications of the average martial arts instructor to teach anything on that subject beyond what a student with moderate social skills likely knows already? I'd go to a seminar taught by someone like Ellis Amdur on verbal de-escalation because he has years of professional experience with the topic. Most martial arts instructors can't say the same.
> 
> ...


I've been asked in the past why I don't spend more time on these topics. I always give two reasons:

Firstly, there's only so much expertise I can gain on these without changing my profession (and I'm too old for that ****). So, I can teach some basics that are generally accepted by those who have had to use them and those who study the topics. And there's only so much value in teaching those - as you point out - so I don't spend much time teaching them.

Secondly, practicing these in class is not real practice. Role-playing doesn't really test the ability to use them, and the responses from the partner are rarely going to be consistent with the responses "in the wild" unless that partner is an expert in the field.

So, I cover these lightly to make sure folks are actually aware. I teach a few habits people can choose to adopt. And then I get back to teaching physical defensive skills, because I know how to teach those, I know how to make those work on someone who doesn't have the same goal I do, and I know how to teach people to make those work on that person.


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## pdg (Oct 5, 2018)

I have nothing sensible to add, so I'll suggest using the force...


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## Brian King (Oct 6, 2018)

Do not underestimate the abilities and capabilities of blind and visually impaired students. Allow them to fall (they have before), let them be hit and surprised by the contact. They need to know that they can handle it. Their body’s prioperception, proprioception, and their intuition is often be very well developed. They will appreciate much more hands on work and attention. Feeling is not only believing but often for the challenged, feeling is seeing and learning.


The visually impaired will challenge an instructor’s ability to articulate the lessons and teachings. If you are used to students watching demonstrations you will need to audibly describe what is happening. The words and phrases will have to be adjusted, for example, “see the opening created here?” ummm no they might not. “Hit the tension created here in their back to create excess tension rooting” umm where on their back? “Keep your elbows here as you can then use them both offensively and defensively.” Umm where. Working with the visually impaired and blind will force your articulation to become much more precise, descriptive, and detailed.


Good luck Justin. Let us know how it goes and what lessons you learned.


Regards

Brian King


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## dvcochran (Oct 6, 2018)

I certainly agree it will be a challenge for the instructor, you state the obvious. I would argue that someone blind from birth may have just as much trouble taking audible commands easier than tactile commands. I have been told this before from a blind friend. My position is arguably the same; with respect to Mr. Misdukes, the best we can do as a teacher who choses to take on this task is to be prepared to teach verbal and situational skills. They are a fundamental part of teaching self defense in the real world. Ask any LE. I fully agree there is much mis-teachings in SD, so is true in the MA's as well so the argument overlaps. 
By all means a visually impaired person can participate in the Martial Arts. I encourage everyone to do so. As an informed instructor and especially school owner we must understand when we take on liability outside the constraints of our coverage and understand the implications. I am not just speaking of the financial liability but the more important physical and emotional liabilities. I see the more extreme difficulty to teach, or see as a teacher, being when someone impaired or not chooses to take risks that jeopardize their safety. Over confidence and especially a lack of common sense can be a real killer.


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## kfman (Oct 25, 2022)

It depends how impaired they are. I have macular degeneration and have no problems teaching the Five Family Style. I'm hoping to teach soon at an organization that works with visually impaired people, like myself, here in Los Angeles. Chin-na would definitely be a good thing for them, besides forms and their techniques


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