# why?



## senseiblackbelt (Sep 8, 2016)

why do black belts only go up 2 3rd degree? why not 4th or 5th degree?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 8, 2016)

Depends on the system. In most arts that use belt rankings, they actually go up to 10th degree black belt. I don't think I've encountered an art where the ceiling is 3rd degree.


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## Kickboxer101 (Sep 8, 2016)

Pretty much all do to my knowledge in kickboxing they have belt rankings that stop at first black but well kickboxing isn't a traditional and belt rankings aren't a huge thing as they are in some schools. I know people say first black Is only the beginning so the rest is your continuation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> why do black belts only go up 2 3rd degree? why not 4th or 5th degree?


I'm not sure where you're talking about. Nearly every art I've seen that uses black belts has 5, 6, 10, or 15 dan ranks. Literally the only one I can think of that stops at 3rd is Shojin-ryu.

Now I do know associations where the technical requirements stop at 2nd or 3rd dan. Beyond that point, rank is awarded for impact on the art (usually gauged by how many good instructors you create, etc.).


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## marques (Sep 8, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> why do black belts only go up 2 3rd degree? why not 4th or 5th degree?


Often BB doesn't go higher than 2nd or 3rd degree, I think it is what you mean.

It is really hard to have a true higher rank than that. Where I got my foundations, it was required to have 1 academy per Dan up to 3 (yee, it was an expansion phase, I guess it keeps quite the same). So 3 Dan was almost a full-time job. Eventually, you can have a 'part-time' in paralel...  Higher than that requires even more work. And recently they changed it all and it was reduced to ONE IV degree, for the president and founder.

Also some people just don't care about Dan, and paying fees for graduations... 3 Dan should means already a great technical level. There is not much more to prove. But a lot of work to achieve higher ranks than that...


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 8, 2016)

marques said:


> Often BB doesn't go higher than 2nd or 3rd degree, I think it is what you mean.
> 
> It is really hard to have a true higher rank than that. Where I got my foundations, it was required to have 1 academy per Dan up to 3 (yee, it was an expansion phase, I guess it keeps quite the same). So 3 Dan was almost a full-time job. Eventually, you can have a 'part-time' in paralel...  Higher than that requires even more work. And recently they changed it all and it was reduced to ONE IV degree, for the president and founder.
> 
> Also some people just don't care about Dan, and paying fees for graduations... 3 Dan should means already a great technical level. There is not much more to prove. But a lot of work to achieve higher ranks than that...


What art was this in that had these requirements?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 8, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Nearly every art I've seen that uses black belts has 5, 6, 10, or 15 dan ranks


The only system I know of that has 15 dan ranks is the Bujinkan. I think ranks 11-15 were introduced by Hatsumi after he had promoted a bunch of guys to 10th dan already and needed something more to encourage them (or charge them for, if you want to be cynical  ). Do you know of any other arts which go that high?


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 8, 2016)

senseiblackbelt said:


> why do black belts only go up 2 3rd degree? why not 4th or 5th degree?



What are you talking about, specifically? 
TKD has 9 Dan ranks, with a 10th being an honorary (and generally posthumous) award.
Most flavors of Karate have 10, and this is in the Karate forum...
The Bujinkan has something like 15.


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## Buka (Sep 8, 2016)

I never knew Dan ranks went up to 15 in some systems.
And people wonder why I love this place.


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2016)

Buka said:


> I never knew Dan ranks went up to 15 in some systems.
> And people wonder why I love this place.


They can go up to 20th dan if you create your own style.   Bukarate sounds legit to me.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 8, 2016)

Steve said:


> They can go up to 20th dan if you create your own style.   Bukarate sounds legit to me.


I'd practice it.

If I was one of the founding students, what rank do I start at? I'll take anything above 5th degree to start.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The only system I know of that has 15 dan ranks is the Bujinkan. I think ranks 11-15 were introduced by Hatsumi after he had promoted a bunch of guys to 10th dan already and needed something more to encourage them (or charge them for, if you want to be cynical  ). Do you know of any other arts which go that high?


I remember talking to someone whose instructor had mentioned ranks that high, but I do not at all remember what group he was with, except that I'm fairly certain it wasn't Bujinkan (I already knew some folks in that organization, and would have remembered that). That said, it is entirely possible I'm remembering a discussion with one of those folks studying under an independent instructor who promoted themselves to those stratospheric rank.


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> I'd practice it.
> 
> If I was one of the founding students, what rank do I start at? I'll take anything above 5th degree to start.


You'll have to ask grandmaster buka


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2016)

Steve said:


> They can go up to 20th dan if you create your own style.   Bukarate sounds legit to me.


I have a different view of how that should be taught. I'll be teaching Bukado, which is based on exactly the same principles, but is not at all the same. It's really quite different. Really.


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## Steve (Sep 8, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I have a different view of how that should be taught. I'll be teaching Bukado, which is based on exactly the same principles, but is not at all the same. It's really quite different. Really.


I'm going to start a style called aiki-ramba, or also called Brazilian Aikeedo.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 8, 2016)

Steve said:


> I'm going to start a style called aiki-ramba, or also called Brazilian Aikeedo.


This I would absolutely try. I'm picturing capeora but all throws.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2016)

Steve said:


> I'm going to start a style called aiki-ramba, or also called Brazilian Aikeedo.


My wife might sign up for that one, Steve!


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## Tames D (Sep 9, 2016)

Buka said:


> I never knew Dan ranks went up to 15 in some systems.
> And people wonder why I love this place.


Oh yeah. Very common. That's when you start learning


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## Buka (Sep 9, 2016)

Steve said:


> You'll have to ask grandmaster buka



Back in the 80's, there was a Martial art supply place in Boston called Zuber Inc. It was run by Mister Zuber, an old Jewish fellow who was a living gem, and his Hasidic son (who was not). They had everything, at least for Boston, from gis, fighting equipment, crazy weapons, whatever.

One day I was in there buying something and a kid came in, maybe twenty years old. I was wearing a t-shirt that had my instructors school on it. The kid saw it and said he wanted to meet and spar with my instructor. I told him to come on down to the dojo and gave him the address. He introduced himself as "Grand Master Khey" (I'll never forget that) He bought something or other, then left.

Old mister Zuber said, "I think an updated circumcision is in store for Young-Master-Much-Faster, don't you?"


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## Paul_D (Sep 9, 2016)

Don't forget Master Ken is an 11th Dan


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## Buka (Sep 9, 2016)

Great Grandmaster Fred Villari is a 12th Dan. 
Never in all my years in the arts have I loathed like I loathe that mother******.


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