# On Self "Training" In Martial Arts



## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 24, 2020)

This should be fun, prefrace for this: training is in quotations as i dislike calling it such.   To "train" in martial arts by its literal definition all you need to do is any activity to aid your fighting skills.

Right, now to start my rambling on the subject.


So to begin with, i dont fully comprehend why it gets so much flak, somone generally does self study either alongside lessons or in lieu of them because they cant find anyone to teach them it.      The obvious limitation is what material you are refering to when you self study.  And if you can access any sparring partners and equipment. 

Pending what is taught, would also matter as some skills are obviously easier to pick up and retain, some others arent.    

Tieing back into the first statment, the only issues i see with it is:  Quality and quality of material you are using.  Both of which can vary in a school.    

This is a fairly short rambling as there really isnt much to write on the matter.    Self study has its place and isnt a choice for some people.    ie, like HEMA, the martial art could only exist in treatises therefor you need to disect the sources to learn it, and have to learn it from a book.    


If anyone else has any sort of rambelings on the subject, i forgot to cover diffrent sorts of media, but i dont think that has much of a place.  As you should use it alongside doing it if you intend to learn any skills in this regard. That should fill in some blanks, and use (if possible) muiltiple diffrent kinds (of media).

Addendum:   I dont really know how to fit this in after writing but:    Goals also matter to its usefulness, if your goal is just self defence, you dont have to fight proffesional boxers in a ring or combat athletes, just the average person.   (now if the average person where you live is one of them, you probbly could learn from one of them )    In a similar way if you just want to loose weight and stay healthy you dont have to run a marathon, or get into bodybuilding, powerlifting etc.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2020)

Look. I don't like it. But then I think martial arts should be trained a particular way or it is very unlikely to work. 

What I don't understand is the "So long as they are having fun" crowd having an issue because it goes against the arguments that defend their own arts.

Ultimately the test of a martial artist is if he can fight and win against other people in some context. And you can't really do that on your own. 

The whole jam about training with resistance. 

Now of course this also means if you train under a guy who hasn't fought anyone in a system who hasn't fought anyone then you are probably achieving about the same result as training your self. Which is you just don't know if you are getting any good.


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## jobo (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> This should be fun, prefrace for this: training is in quotations as i dislike calling it such.   To "train" in martial arts by its literal definition all you need to do is any activity to aid your fighting skills.
> 
> Right, now to start my rambling on the subject.
> 
> ...


you cant learn to fight with out fighting, how much actual fighting v tip tap sparing is a topic for debate, but you need someone to try and hit you at the very least, 

can you make your chances of surviving a fight greater with out taking lessions YES anything you do to increse your fitness is going to help any training you do either by yourself or under instruction that doesnt increase your fitness is of dubious use to you.

if your walking around confident you can bench 300 LB run a seven min mile and catch fles out of the air, you can quite possibly get yourself out of most situations 

if your spending your time watching you tube vids and trying to apply second hand instruction to yourself then NO


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 24, 2020)

If you want to learn how to fight, you have to fight. Self training doesn't include opportunity, angle, timing.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> you cant learn to fight with out fighting, how much actual fighting v tip tap sparing is a topic for debate, but you need someone to try and hit you at the very least,



I do agree with said statment, all you need to do to spar, is find somone to spar with, or practice on.        

Personally speaking the abre minimum i think you need to do self study, is something to take information from and a person to practice on.  and maybe some form of target like a heavy bag or pads, preferably a reactive one.        We could dispute how much time sparring should be done to targets as well.  


i also agree with some other points there, above covers the other replies (at least in part) as well.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 24, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you want to learn how to fight, you have to fight. Self training doesn't include opportunity, angle, timing.



i will dispute with the latter part and state, if you have a sparring partner you can do all that.


To be fair, we could make the argument you arent really self training.  You are closer to running a study group for dicovery into fighting if you get more than 2 people show up, or gather a group of people together to do it.


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## jobo (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> I do agree with said statment, all you need to do to spar, is find somone to spar with, or practice on.
> 
> Personally speaking the abre minimum i think you need to do self study, is something to take information from and a person to practice on.  and maybe some form of target like a heavy bag or pads, preferably a reactive one.        We could dispute how much time sparring should be done to targets as well.
> 
> ...


but why self study, with all its pitfalls, when for a tenner you can get actual real time instruction and correction and some sparing thrown in ?

im currently self studing playing the banjo, its hard work, following you tube and practising at the same time, theres not a banjo instructer in 50 miles, so thats all ive got


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> but why self study, with all its pitfalls, when for a tenner you can get actual real time instruction and correction and some sparing thrown in ?



As stated, not always a option for some people.  for a variety of reasons.    plus there is no gurantee said instruction could be worth the money you are paying for it.


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## jobo (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> i will dispute with the latter part and state, if you have a sparring partner you can do all that.
> 
> 
> To be fair, we could make the argument you arent really self training.  You are closer to running a study group for dicovery into fighting if you get more than 2 people show up, or gather a group of people together to do it.


well that rather depends who your sparing partner is


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## jobo (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> As stated, not always a option for some people.  for a variety of reasons.    plus there is no gurantee said instruction could be worth the money you are paying for it.


its always worth a tenner, if you cant afford that a week then go every month, if your living in the middle of nowhere, then perhaps there a viable reason,


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## skribs (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> So to begin with, i dont fully comprehend why it gets so much flak, somone generally does self study either alongside lessons or in lieu of them because they cant find anyone to teach them it. The obvious limitation is what material you are refering to when you self study. And if you can access any sparring partners and equipment.



There are three things you do not get when training by yourself:

Advice from the instructor about what you should be working on to grow
Feedback from the instructor on your technique
Feedback from your sparring partners as to what works and what doesn't
*Curriculum* is important.  Some schools have a rotating curriculum, some have a set curriculum based on your level and experience.  Some schools have a class where everyone trains together and breaks into small groups.  Others have a more open gym approach, where coaches will give you advice on what to work on based on where you are and what your goals are.  

There's so much to learn in martial arts, that you can't get it all at once.  If you try by yourself without direction, you may try and do too much at a time, may focus needlessly on specific things that hold you back, or you may try things you're not ready for because you haven't mastered the pre-requisites.  For example, you may try and learn all the submissions in BJJ and not get a good idea of how any of them work.  You may spend months trying to get a faster and faster jab (at the expense of all other techniques and fundamentals).  Or maybe you're trying to do jump spinning kicks before you've mastered the basic kicks.  Direction is important so you can grow at the optimal pace.

There's also things you may not even think of, which are integral to an art.  For example, boxing is relatively simple.  You've got a handful of punches.  Maybe you train those punches diligently, but you're not working on footwork and distance control, or weaving in slips and rolls into your combinations.  You may be able to get good technique on a heavy bag, but applying it to a person requires more than just knowing how to throw out your fist.  

*Feedback *is important.  Going along with the theme above - you don't know what you don't know.  When a student performs even the most basic of our forms, in the very first step (turn to the left and down block), there are over 25 different details I'm looking for.  For a beginner, I only care about maybe 3 of them.  But as you get higher and higher in belt, there are 25 different details, from the orientation of your feet, the specific position you chamber your block in, the timing of your turn, your breathing...lots of different things.  How many of those things are you going to pick out for yourself?

There are so many mistakes that people make when they train, even when they follow an instructor.  And even when the instructor encourages their progress, there's still a long way to go to perfect techniques.  And so far I'm just talking about a simple technique, used in a form.  I haven't even gotten to using the technique in a more applicable manner.

An instructor can watch you do your techniques and provide feedback.  We can figure out:

How to make your movements more efficient
What bad habits you have and how to break them
How to take a technique from the technical demonstration level to the application level
How to use your technique while not opening yourself up for a counter
If you don't know the counters, you're not going to make it work.  If you try a technique and fail, it doesn't mean the technique is bad - just means you need to learn how to make it work.  (I'm gonna use your first post ever as an example, when you said that the hook punch is bad because you can hurt your hand.  It's not that hook punches are bad, you just didn't have feedback from an instructor on how to do a proper one).

*Sparring *is another key point.  And I don't mean just sparring against untrained folk.  You need to spar with 3 types of people:

Those that are better than you, so you can learn from them
Those that are worse from you, so that you can practice on them
Those that are even to you, so that you can push yourself to compete
If you're never sparring, you are never training your skills.  If you only ever spar against people that are equal to you, then you also miss out on a lot.  If you're all untrained, then you never spar people better than you in order to improve.  If you're all still at that untrained level, you never have anyone worse than you that you can drill your foundational techniques on.






I believe I've linked this to you before, but this is a guy with wrestling experience, who tried to do what you want - learn in his basement, by sparring with a wrestling buddy.  They basically wasted their time.  He's since gone on to become a very successful fighter in BJJ, and become a very well-respected spokesman of the martial arts community on Youtube.  But he had to go to a class to get there.



> somone generally does self study either alongside lessons or in lieu of them because they cant find anyone to teach them it



I broke this sentence out of the last quote because I wanted to focus on it.  First off, most people who self-train in lieu of taking classes due so understanding the limitation.  Any posts on MartialTalk or Reddit I've seen where someone asks how much they can train without taking classes, the resounding answer is - you can't.  If you absolutely cannot take classes, then you do what you can.  Most of the advice is to work on conditioning - strength, cardio, and flexibility - rather than to work on technique.  Because you won't get that technique otherwise.

Then there's two other scenarios - the person who goes to class and self-trains between classes, and the student who has to take time off from classes (for reasons of schedule, pay, or locality) and who trains on his own.

*In the first case*, that's just an example of doing homework.  You're still getting feedback, it's just not constant.  Say I go to class on Monday and Wednesday, and I practice at home Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday.  When I go to class on Monday, I get feedback on my technique.  Maybe I learn that for my back kick to be more powerful, I need to lean over to thrust my hips out.  So on Tuesday I practice doing the back kick while thrusting the hips out.  Then I go back on Wednesday, and when I do my back kick I can find out my progress.  

If I was training on my own, without going to class, then I wouldn't have known to add in that detail to my back kick.  And if I only trained in class, I'd have much less reps to work on it.  Training at home amplifies what you do in class.  If you practice 3 hours a week at home and go to class for 2 hours, it will really add up.  But if you practice 10 hours a week and took 0 hours of class, your practice is going to be largely meaningless.

*In the second case,* of the student who has to quit, they're not really improving.  They're maintaining their skill at the level when they left.  You don't have someone leave a school as a red belt, train at home for 3 years, and come back and be given a 2nd degree black belt.  You see someone leave school as a red belt, train at home for 3 years, and come back and jump back into the red belt class.



> Pending what is taught, would also matter as some skills are obviously easier to pick up and retain, some others arent.



This varies from person to person.  It's also not really relevant to the discussion.  Like I said - if you're unitiated (which you are unitiated), you don't know what you don't know.  Whether those details are easy for you to pick up or not, it doesn't matter that you won't pick them up if you don't know they exist.



> Tieing back into the first statment, the only issues i see with it is: Quality and quality of material you are using. Both of which can vary in a school.



This is a reason to be vigilant and verify that your school is a good one, not an excuse to avoid taking classes entirely.  Do your research when you join a school.

What are their credentials?
What are their accomplishments?
What do their students think of the school?
Do they do live sparring?  (Sometimes you may need to ask this, as quite often live sparring happens when you're more advanced and have a better understanding of the foundations and the rules)
Post a link to their site on the appropriate martial arts subreddit (or the r/martialarts subreddit) and see what people *who know the art* think of the school.
Talk to the instructor and try to figure out how much of what they say is legit and how much is snake oil.  If you're not sure, post a summary of the conversation on the appropriate subreddit
When you select a school and you first start training, you should pretty much stick with that school.  Some may say at least 6 months or a year, I say give it a year or two.  Give yourself enough time to become proficient in what they teach.  After that, if you've grown disillusioned with your school, then find a new one.  Go back through the process I mentioned above.  Except this time you'll have a better idea of what is martial arts and what is bullshido.

I'll also say that unless there's something downright dangerous about the training at your current school, stay there until you can find a new school.  Otherwise you'll stop training entirely.

*In conclusion*, this is why I have been so adamant in my posts that you go to class and get training.  I'm going to say it once more: *you don't know what you don't know*.  For example, I'm thinking about starting BJJ classes soon.  Even though I have a red belt in Hapkido, 3 years in wrestling, and I'm a 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo, I'll be starting fresh there.  I've watched a lot of Chewjitsu and other videos.  I've asked questions on the forums.  I've messed around with some of the ideas with my friends in my Hapkido class.  But I would be willing to put money down that within the first month of taking BJJ, I'll have questions about subjects I didn't even know existed.

You have to go to class if you want to grow.  Plain and simple.


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## skribs (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> I do agree with said statment, all you need to do to spar, is find somone to spar with, or practice on.



If that person is untrained, then your sparring is useless.  If they don't know how to defend against the techniques you use, then you're not going to learn how to actually use them. 

Conversely, if you're doing a technique wrong, it's easy to just reject it as something that doesn't work.  Where if you have a more experienced fighter pull that technique on you, or you had an instructor come by and say "this is why it isn't working, try that instead" it would work.


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## skribs (Feb 24, 2020)

@Rat one last thought.  If this post is for you to actually figure out why you need to class, I'm really glad you made this post and I hope you can start your martial arts career.

But if this post is just so you can argue that you're fine self-training, then I'll continue to hold out hope you'll take that first step back into class some day.


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 24, 2020)

Self training is fine, if you're an instructor with years of experience and know the 25 details of proper technique skribs spoke about, above.  Then, you are able to self correct.  But even then, some bad habits will creep in:  A drifting hand, a lazy posture, a too-straight back leg, a too tense arm...  Excellence will erode even for a 3rd or 4th degree black belt, without occasional review from a fellow practitioner - how much more so for an intermediate belt, much less a beginner!

Maybe you can learn the alphabet and basic words from a book (as I did, Japanese), but not enough to learn context, voice inflection, conditional or imperative verb forms, nuances of meaning, telling a story with compound sentences, and so on.  Thinking your self taught skills are decent, will make you look stupid.  In a fight, such thinking will make you look stupid, and hurt.

Training on your own is great, as a supplement to regular input from an expert.  To rely on books and videos to learn something as complex and nuanced as a martial art is nonsense.  Those tools can't see your strengths and weaknesses, your body style, understand your attitude and capabilities, provide encouragement, or smack your ribs if your elbow is out of position.

But, if someone wants to entertain themselves, develop bad habits, delude themselves that they know MA, it's OK by me.  Yes, they will learn something and maybe get in better condition, but, IMO, the cost in the negatives is way too high.


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## Headhunter (Feb 24, 2020)

self training is better than nothing but only just. You may get some fitness though you'll never work yourself as hard as an instructor will push you. You can practice some moves but you're not going to get that good because you've got no one to make you better.

If you spend a month self training and I spend a month going to classes I'm going to improve a lot more in that month.


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## skribs (Feb 24, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> self training is better than nothing but only just. You may get some fitness though you'll never work yourself as hard as an instructor will push you. You can practice some moves but you're not going to get that good because you've got no one to make you better.
> 
> If you spend a month self training and I spend a month going to classes I'm going to improve a lot more in that month.



If person A spends a year self-training and person B spends a month going to classes, then person B is going to improve a lot more.


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## frank raud (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> Self study has its place and isnt a choice for some people. ie, like HEMA, the martial art could only exist in treatises therefor you need to disect the sources to learn it, and have to learn it from a book.


  People have been studying HEMA long enough that there are study groups and schools in many location, just like most martial arts. I have a HEMA school in walking distance of my house, that also teaches Irish Stickfighting under a recognized master of the Antrim style.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 24, 2020)

Self training is worse than no training for the same reason that SD seminars are oftentimes worse than no seminar. You're not actually learning anything useful, but you're telling yourself and/or being told you are, which gives you a false sense of confidence. That will easily be shattered in a fight against someone actually trained.


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## drop bear (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> As stated, not always a option for some people.  for a variety of reasons.    plus there is no gurantee said instruction could be worth the money you are paying for it.



Look. You could test it. Do jujitsu for 6 months via you tube. Train with whoever, compete and see how you go.

I mean a jujitsu competition isn't life or death.


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## Headhunter (Feb 24, 2020)

Look let's be real here. This thread is you trying to justify why you don't train.

If you don't want to go to a class that's your business and your choice which you're entitled to make. If you want to read books and articles and watch YouTube videos and copy them then fair enough go for it.

But the fact is, you're not going to improve much you're not going to be able to apply it in a real life situation and by doing this you won't ever get beyond begginer standards.

Now if you are fine with that then again fair enough good luck to you I wish you all the best you don't need to try and justify it. No one here is going to tell you that self training is amazing and you'll get brilliant from it because that'd be a lie. But it's your choice if that's what you want to do. Just don't get a false sense of security with it


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## Headhunter (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> As stated, not always a option for some people.  for a variety of reasons.    plus there is no gurantee said instruction could be worth the money you are paying for it.


It'll be worth more than watching YouTube videos even if it's the worst instructor on earth at least you'll get to work with a partner. That alone makes it more beneficial than self training


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## Flying Crane (Feb 24, 2020)

Rat said:


> This should be fun, prefrace for this: training is in quotations as i dislike calling it such.   To "train" in martial arts by its literal definition all you need to do is any activity to aid your fighting skills.
> 
> Right, now to start my rambling on the subject.
> 
> ...


Jeezuz.  Just...Jeezuz...


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## Buka (Feb 24, 2020)

I don’t know, I heard somewhere that if you trained yourself too much you’ld go blind.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 24, 2020)

Buka said:


> I don’t know, I heard somewhere that if you trained yourself too much you’ld go blind.


How much is too much??!!!


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## skribs (Feb 24, 2020)

Buka said:


> I don’t know, I heard somewhere that if you trained yourself too much you’ld go blind.



I got a similar message when I was younger, but it wasn't martial arts related and I'll try not to go too far off-topic.


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## dvcochran (Feb 24, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> It'll be worth more than watching YouTube videos even if it's the worst instructor on earth at least you'll get to work with a partner. That alone makes it more beneficial than self training


I can't go that far. I have seen more than a few people who learned/were taught something wrong. Once something engrained it is hard wo unlearn.


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## skribs (Feb 24, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I can't go that far. I have seen more than a few people who learned/were taught something wrong. Once something engrained it is hard wo unlearn.



Yeah, but how many instructors teach it so wrong it's worse than self training?


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## Buka (Feb 24, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> How much is too much??!!!



I’m not sure, not having reached that point yet. Lord knows I’m trying.


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## dvcochran (Feb 24, 2020)

skribs said:


> Yeah, but how many instructors teach it so wrong it's worse than self training?


More than you think I suspect. I have seen it more often in larger schools/classes where groups are delegated out to adult BB's. Some people don't have much of a bone for teaching.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Look. You could test it. Do jujitsu for 6 months via you tube. Train with whoever, compete and see how you go.
> 
> I mean a jujitsu competition isn't life or death.



You could very well do that, you cant exactly argue with results in that regard.        In a similar way you could come up with your own exercise routine and enter a endurance comptetion to see how well you go.  



frank raud said:


> People have been studying HEMA long enough that there are study groups and schools in many location, just like most martial arts. I have a HEMA school in walking distance of my house, that also teaches Irish Stickfighting under a recognized master of the Antrim style.



HEMA is pretty much the perfect example as people have had to learn it from a book to reconstruct it. As what ever style it is,  next to no lingeges (if any) exist for that before people started resurecting it.     and other systems etc would translate from not at all to  so-so if you did it that way.   And we could get a lot of detaisl for how people went about resurecting it.    Unlike at the dawn of martial arts as below. 


Plus, just a underlying thing here, someone had to make up the first actual proper fighting system and they would have started with nothing but the insticts they were born with.     So its kind of clear you can, come up with a system from nothing but your insticnts and experience.  The length and quality will vary and can be disputed from starting with nothiness.   But now days you wont likely start with nothing as you have  wealth of information in the subject to access at your finger tips if you have access to the internet.


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## Tez3 (Feb 25, 2020)

Rat said:


> You could very well do that, you cant exactly argue with results in that regard. In a similar way you could come up with your own exercise routine and enter a endurance comptetion to see how well you go.





You missed the point in the comment there..


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## skribs (Feb 25, 2020)

Rat said:


> HEMA is pretty much the perfect example as people have had to learn it from a book to reconstruct it. As what ever style it is, next to no lingeges (if any) exist for that before people started resurecting it. and other systems etc would translate from not at all to so-so if you did it that way. And we could get a lot of detaisl for how people went about resurecting it. Unlike at the dawn of martial arts as below.
> 
> 
> Plus, just a underlying thing here, someone had to make up the first actual proper fighting system and they would have started with nothing but the insticts they were born with. So its kind of clear you can, come up with a system from nothing but your insticnts and experience. The length and quality will vary and can be disputed from starting with nothiness. But now days you wont likely start with nothing as you have wealth of information in the subject to access at your finger tips if you have access to the internet.



You are correct about what had to happen for HEMA.  However, there are a few key details that you're missing.

Most of the people who started HEMA had a solid martial arts foundation to build on.  There are a lot of martial arts that continue to this day which feature weapons, including kendo, fencing, kobuto (apologize for my spelling, Japanese weapon forms, such as bo staff), kali, and escrima.  There is a lot of research that has been done on various weapons, how they would be used, and what their pros and cons are.  
HEMA was not studied individually or in small groups.  Many different people pitched in, from martial artists to historians.
HEMA is pressure-tested by having competitions in which students from many schools get together and compete, and has had 30ish years to blossom into what it is today.
HEMA is like any other martial art.  Now that the groundwork has been laid, you can try and recreate it yourself (which is like trying to reinvent the wheel), or you can go to class and learn much more efficiently how everything is done.
If you want to create your own art from the ground up, you'll have a much better art if you spend 30 years training at various gyms.  Let's say you spend 6 years at each school.  You get a 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo, a brown belt in BJJ, a good amount of experience in boxing, Kali, and Krav Maga.  Now you can say "I like the boxing training, but I don't like the Taekwondo forms.  But I do like the Taekwondo kicks.  I think I prefer the BJJ version of fighting against a knife to Kali, but I like that Kali made me a good stick and knife fighter.  I like the mentality of krav, but not the way I learned techniques.  I think my style is going to use the boxing style to teach punches and the TKD kicks, and use the Krav Maga mentality with the grappling skills I learned from BJJ."

Or you can just spend 30 years reading books and theorizing about what works and what doesn't.  Let me tell you why that's a bad idea.

One of my favorite games as a kid was Diablo 2.  I bought the game, but before I could play it my family went on vacation.  Instead of playing the game, I read the Prima Strategy Guide (basically a beefed up instruction manual) and learned everything I could about the game.  I learned that for a Barbarian, the Leap Attack ability could cap out at around +120% weapon damage, where the Whirlwind ability that everyone loved only capped out at only +20%.  (I may be fudging some of the numbers, but that was the gist of it).  I thought I outsmarted everyone when I came up with a Leap Attack build instead of a Whirlwind build.  I'd be doing twice as much damage!

Except, Leap Attack only hit one enemy.  Whirlwind hit a whole bunch.  Whirlwind also hit 3 times as fast.  I also think Leap Attack didn't actually work on enemies that were too close and I'd use a basic attack instead.  My build sucked.  I did all the theorycrafting I could, and I came up with crap.  It took a couple times using leap attack, and then watching my friend use Whirlwind for me to realize how bad I messed up.  So I deleted the character and started over.  My Whirlwind Barbarian was a lot of fun to play.  It chewed through monsters like they were butter.

The point is, had I never actually played the game, and only ever sat there with my book, I'd have thought I had the right idea.  I was only looking at the number, and not how the ability actually worked.  There was a lot that I didn't know about the game, and that which I didn't know held me back.  This is the idea behind training on your own from a book.  If you don't have actual experience, you're not going to learn what you don't know.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You missed the point in the comment there..



I will wait for drop bear, (the poster) to reply to see if that is indeed accurate.


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## drop bear (Feb 25, 2020)

Rat said:


> I will wait for drop bear, (the poster) to reply to see if that is indeed accurate.



There was no secret point. Rather than working with conjecture it will be more effective to work with facts. 

So can this be done?

Do it and find out.


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## Tez3 (Feb 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There was no secret point. Rather than working with conjecture it will be more effective to work with facts.
> 
> So can this be done?
> 
> Do it and find out.




Who said anything about secret? 
Rat was assuming you were telling him he was correct and he'd prove it in a competition


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## frank raud (Feb 25, 2020)

Rat said:


> HEMA is pretty much the perfect example as people have had to learn it from a book to reconstruct it. As what ever style it is, next to no lingeges (if any) exist for that before people started resurecting it. and other systems etc would translate from not at all to so-so if you did it that way. And we could get a lot of detaisl for how people went about resurecting it. Unlike at the dawn of martial arts as below.


 Look art this this way, let's take a "simple" art, Western boxing. No kicks, no grappling. Essentially 4 major punches(jab, cross, hook and uppercut) and some footwork. You can train by yourself, shadow box, skip rope, hit the heavy bag, etc. by yourself. You can convince yourself you are a boxer. But the minute you step into a ring with a TRAINED boxer, all the faults in your training will be exposed. Now, let's add more techniques(kicks, sweeps, throws, chokes) that you have only learned from a book, not having someone knowledgeable to correct your errors. That awesome rear naked choke you do? Your elbow is off to the side, not below his chin, so you cant apply even pressure to both sides of his neck. Did your book correct you when you drilled it wrong a 100 times? Those subtle techniques or throws that seem effortless? Suddenly a very different thing when you have an un cooperative person to work with.


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## skribs (Feb 25, 2020)

frank raud said:


> Look art this this way, let's take a "simple" art, Western boxing. No kicks, no grappling. Essentially 4 major punches(jab, cross, hook and uppercut) and some footwork. You can train by yourself, shadow box, skip rope, hit the heavy bag, etc. by yourself. You can convince yourself you are a boxer. But the minute you step into a ring with a TRAINED boxer, all the faults in your training will be exposed. Now, let's add more techniques(kicks, sweeps, throws, chokes) that you have only learned from a book, not having someone knowledgeable to correct your errors. That awesome rear naked choke you do? Your elbow is off to the side, not below his chin, so you cant apply even pressure to both sides of his neck. Did your book correct you when you drilled it wrong a 100 times? Those subtle techniques or throws that seem effortless? Suddenly a very different thing when you have an un cooperative person to work with.



Or you work with another untrained person, but he taps when your arm is around the neck, because he doesn't understand how chokes work either. So you think you have feedback on what works, but you can't actually choke someone out.


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## dvcochran (Feb 25, 2020)

frank raud said:


> But the minute you step into a ring with a TRAINED boxer, all the faults in your training will be exposed.


But he clearly says a trained boxer. I would think that factors out the untrained person(s).


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## Bruce7 (Feb 25, 2020)

Rat said:


> This should be fun, prefrace for this: training is in quotations as i dislike calling it such.   To "train" in martial arts by its literal definition all you need to do is any activity to aid your fighting skills.
> 
> Right, now to start my rambling on the subject.
> 
> ...



I like your post.
Years ago I train with excellent teachers for a number of years.
I have alot of old books and the superfoot video were help, but I still really was not making near the progress I wanted until I found a good teacher.

There is an old saying " It is better to look for a good teacher for ten years than train for ten years with a bad teacher.

I truly believe that old saying. 











i


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## drop bear (Feb 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Who said anything about secret?
> Rat was assuming you were telling him he was correct and he'd prove it in a competition



He might. I don't know.  That I skins of my whole thing. What work is what works. Not what we think works.


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## skribs (Feb 25, 2020)

Bruce7 said:


> I like your post.
> Years ago I train with excellent teachers for a number of years.
> I have alot of old books and the superfoot video were help, but I still really was not making near the progress I wanted until I found a good teacher.
> 
> ...



You have to take him in context, though. He refuses to train under a teacher at all, because he thinks he knows better than the teachers.

He's taken a few months of classes.


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> He might. I don't know.  That I skins of my whole thing. What work is what works. Not what we think works.




I think the chances of a self taught egotist who knows better than all instructors including those on videos and books etc. who can eloquently debunk all knowledge of martial arts ...well no he can't actually..... in favour of his own 'brand' is going to fair poorly against anyone who can fight trained or untrained. The sheer weight of ignorance will hold him down.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 26, 2020)

frank raud said:


> You can convince yourself you are a boxer. But the minute you step into a ring with a TRAINED boxer, all the faults in your training will be exposed



If you do what is called boxing, you would technically be a boxer, quality doesnt matter to that. It seems to be a trend that people who are "street experienced" just call themselves fighters if they call themselves anything.  But thats more of a word argument anyway.


Sports wise, if you go into a comeptition most people in most of them would have had some degree of coaching before the fact, so you are essentially entering with a disadvantage. That would cover the SPORT aspect of this and is just the reality of competitions etc.      And you would be stupid to not acknowledge such a fact.    But not all coaches are the same, some might just be terrible and you might have been better off doing nothing and subjecting youself to a beatdown until you got KO'ed.    (never do that unless they pay you a decent sum also, especially if you need to pay for health insurance)    That is also just a fact for this area.

You would have a much better time  if you were only intrested in "self defence", as then the bulk of people in that arena wouldnt be formally trained.    Unless of course you live in  area where it is common, but then odds are you would be formally trained to some degree as well, or be able to find somewhere or someone.      And for this point, would said person be able to get out of said rear naked choke?  especially if you sucessfully did it to your training partner(s) X amount of times.    Or would said rear naked choke be valid in what you are into it for?  why do that when you could have just clubbed them with your fists?    Fight how you know after all.

But, i did all ready admit to the point some things are harder to learn than others.  Learning is a individualised thing though.       If you do self study the quality would vary on how well you can pick something up from the media you can access and the quality of it.     (media for sake of argument includes sparring etc)


A potential issue here is, this thread isnt specfically about one particular type, its not restricted to armed or unarmed, sport or non sport or anything inbetween or parell to them.      Obviously, down to my intrests my area is more self defence and weapons so i may think of said situations before i think of a sport situation. To which a more sport centric person would think of first.    Example: When i wrote some skills are easier to learn than others, the contrast of spears and swords came to my mind.   Unlike said example of unarmed fighting and in boxing.    Just thought that was worth relaying, not a counter point to anything.



drop bear said:


> There was no secret point. Rather than working with conjecture it will be more effective to work with facts.
> 
> So can this be done?
> 
> Do it and find out.



Im fully aware of said point and got it.   The reply i got was indiciating i did not get it, which may or may not have alluded to some apprantly concealed point.  (to which only the post maker could relay was the case with 100% accuracy)

And i did second it, you cant argue with facts.   If you enter a boxing competiion (for argument sake) and win the match, you clearly are doing something right, or they are doing something wrong.   The latter doesnt matter so much as its a factor in fighting, a win is a win afterall.


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## skribs (Feb 26, 2020)

Rat said:


> You would have a much better time if you were only intrested in "self defence", as then the bulk of people in that arena wouldnt be formally trained. Unless of course you live in area where it is common, but then odds are you would be formally trained to some degree as well, or be able to find somewhere or someone. And for this point, would said person be able to get out of said rear naked choke? especially if you sucessfully did it to your training partner(s) X amount of times. Or would said rear naked choke be valid in what you are into it for? why do that when you could have just clubbed them with your fists? Fight how you know after all.



You apply a rear-naked choke.  It doesn't actually choke them out, because you don't know how to actually do it.  What do you do then?

You try to club them with your fists.  But your punches don't land, because they just back away from your punches or keep their guard up, and you don't know how to draw out their guard or any strategy and footwork to make your punches land.  What do you do then?



Rat said:


> If you do what is called boxing, you would technically be a boxer, quality doesnt matter to that. It seems to be a trend that people who are "street experienced" just call themselves fighters if they call themselves anything. But thats more of a word argument anyway.



If you self-train as a boxer and call yourself a boxer, you're going to piss off the entire boxing community.  Especially if you start trying to train others or post videos and articles on how to box, when you don't have a clue.  Now you're hurting the reputation of the art.  

Unfortunately, I was wrong in my hopes earlier in the thread.  I said I hoped this was you turning the corner.  But it's just become another thread where you present your opinion, which is very very wrong, and then die on the hill defending it.  Why are you even here?  Why even ask these questions?  You want validation?  Then do something worth validating.  Go train.  Get experience.  Come back to us and talk to us as a peer.  Suck up your ego and go take some classes.  You'll learn a lot more than you will here.  Especially since you don't listen to anyone here and just argue with everyone who says you're wrong.  Which happens all the time, because you know nothing of actual martial arts.


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## skribs (Feb 26, 2020)

irondome said:


> I been self training since 2005,. And I have made tremendous advancements, but there does come a point where you have to have a partner,



How do you know you've made tremendous advancements?  What was your history before self training?  What arts are you self-training in?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> When I was a teenager I wanted to find the best school. Around my area in Texas, I tried American freestyle karate, Jeet kune do, Chinese kempo,/ whalum Kung Fu, jook lum southern praying mantis, I never found a school I wanted to commit to. So by age 28 I decided to found my own Kung Fu system 15 years later, I have made alot of progress


How do you know you've made progress though? Do you compete somewhere or spar in other schools?


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> No I have not competed, my progress is based on me meeting my goals



What goals?  This is all nebulous.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I been self training since 2005,. And I have made tremendous advancements, but there does come a point where you have to have a partner,



Clarification, i do belive you need at minimum a sparring partner to self study.  anything else seems optional/a luxury.    Unless you just want to do forms to keep active then you dont need one  or dont want it for actually fighting anyone.        You do just need a human being to be there to act as resistance and to try things on.


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## jobo (Feb 27, 2020)

RAT
this is just nonsense, there are lots and lots of people who can hold up there end of a fight with out ever having taken a class

if your one of them you don really need any training to deal with the cut and thrust of every day life, if thats not you, or you make a habit of getting into fights and loosing then you need instruction

saying that there are competent fighter who are self instructed doesn't help you if you dont have their attribute, dedication and habit of getting into fights as practice


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> RAT
> this is just nonsense, there are lots and lots of people who can hold up there end of a fight with out ever having taken a class
> 
> if your one of them you don really need any training to deal with the cut and thrust of every day life, if thats not you, or you make a habit of getting into fights and loosing then you need instruction
> ...




I dont see what is nonsensical about it?  going to have to be a tad bit more spefic.  


There are people who can do that. The disucssion in question is about self study and pros and cons of it and why it gets a defacto bad reputation.      Also, instruction for the last criteria in the sentence is the wrong word for it.


And for the last sentence, see above about the discussion being about pros and cons to said training methodology.         


I dont fully disagree or agree with any of the points made, i just dont see the relevency of some.      Like i dont recall making statements to oppose them?


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## Headhunter (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> When I was a teenager I wanted to find the best school. Around my area in Texas, I tried American freestyle karate, Jeet kune do, Chinese kempo,/ whalum Kung Fu, jook lum southern praying mantis, I never found a school I wanted to commit to. So by age 28 I decided to found my own Kung Fu system 15 years later, I have made alot of progress


Ah....okay.

You should go find a gym to spar to see how much progress you've made


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## Headhunter (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> I dont see what is nonsensical about it?  going to have to be a tad bit more spefic.
> 
> 
> There are people who can do that. The disucssion in question is about self study and pros and cons of it and why it gets a defacto bad reputation.      Also, instruction for the last criteria in the sentence is the wrong word for it.
> ...


The reason it gets a bad reputation is because it's a bad idea and doesn't do much for you at all


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## jobo (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> I dont see what is nonsensical about it?  going to have to be a tad bit more spefic.
> 
> 
> There are people who can do that. The disucssion in question is about self study and pros and cons of it and why it gets a defacto bad reputation.      Also, instruction for the last criteria in the sentence is the wrong word for it.
> ...


il simplify it for you, if you can fight and beat all or even most comers you dont need instruction, if you cant you do, thats if you want to beat most comers


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> il simplify it for you, if you can fight and beat all or even most comers you dont need instruction, if you cant you do, thats if you want to beat most comers




And this thread comes it at the instruction part.  Pros and cons of self study and if it would work in some situations etc.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> I dont see what is nonsensical about it?  going to have to be a tad bit more spefic.
> 
> 
> There are people who can do that. The disucssion in question is about self study and pros and cons of it and why it gets a defacto bad reputation.      Also, instruction for the last criteria in the sentence is the wrong word for it.
> ...



There are *no *pros to self-training over taking a class.  It's nothing but cons.  Self-training is what you do to supplement your class training, or to maintain your skills.  The cons are:

No direction from an instructor on what to work on
No curriculum to tell you how to broaden or focus your training
No feedback from an instructor on the mistakes you're making in your technique during drills
No pressure-tested sparring partner with which to develop the underlying skills of timing, controlling distance, aim, and strategy
No pressure-tested sparring partner with which to get feedback on what works and what doesn't
No accountability or commitment to the training
No validation of your progress other than self-assessment
No understanding of how to develop skills with regards to safety
No feedback from an instructor on why your techniques fail in sparring
In order to be successful in self-training, you would have to have these qualities:

Self-motivated and able to keep yourself on a training schedule
Able to identify the smallest details in what your body is doing, and pay attention to those details in the book or video you are watching and learn from them
Able to find a friend or group of friends who meet the criteria in #1 and #2 that you can have competent training partners
Able to go to competitions that are appropriate for the skills you are testing and succeed in those competitions
That when you answer these questions about yourself, you're actually correct.  If you think you can identify those details, but you can't, then you're not going to get much out of self-training.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> There are *no *pros to self-training over taking a class.  It's nothing but cons.  Self-training is what you do to supplement your class training, or to maintain your skills.  The cons are:
> 
> No direction from an instructor on what to work on
> No curriculum to tell you how to broaden or focus your training
> ...



One thing I forgot to add.  Those things that would make you successful in self-training?  They're not exclusive to self-training, and you'd still get more out of going to class.  If you are self-motivated you will stay committed to a class.  If you can identify those details, it's more important seeing them live than repeated on a video, or listening to others in your class get corrected.  It's the best way to find a group of friends that you can spar with, or to hear about appropriate tournaments.  Even better, those friends don't have to meet criteria #1 and #2, because there will always be other people to spar with or give them feedback.  And you don't need to worry about #5, because even if your self-assessment is poor, your instructor will provide that assessment.


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## jobo (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> And this thread comes it at the instruction part.  Pros and cons of self study and if it would work in some situations etc.


i dont know how else to explain to you, go to a rough pub, pick a fight with the biggest guy in there, if you beat him up yourself study is working, if you dont you may need to improved both your fitness and technique, the best way of doing that is to seek instruction


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## frank raud (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> You would have a much better time if you were only intrested in "self defence", as then the bulk of people in that arena wouldnt be formally trained.


   Again, the problem with self training for self defense, is the lack of input from other, more experienced people. The bulk of people in that arena wouldn't be formally trained.  Perhaps, next time I spill Phil from accounting's Appletini at the office Christmas party, I can be confident I can handle his wrath with the knowledge I gained from Ashida Kim's Big Book of Ninja Knowledge. Unfortunately, within that bulk of people without formal training will be hockey players, American football and Rugby players. Can any of them perform Pinan kata? No. Are any of them capable of physical violence at a level to which you are incapable of responding? Who do you think would be more inclined to violence if you spilled their drink, Phil from accounting, or Biff, who works on the floor of a steel mill, and plays rugby on the weekend?

The logic of maybe the coach is not good, so I'd be better training myself in something I don't know anything about is brilliant. Have you read Phil Elmore's classic, Short Hand, Empty Hand? In it, our fearless hero posits that as he is not an expert, he is the perfect teacher for those less knowledgeable then him. His lack of skills and in depth understanding will make him a better instructor to the masses, as it is not necessary to "know" how to punch correctly, you should just do it. Damage to your hand and wrist that could have been avoided? Incidental.

I am familiar with the challenge of not having the art you are interested in being available near to you. I regularly attend seminars where students have travelled from other countries and continents to attend. Sometimes you need to travel if you absolutely must train in a style that is not available to you.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

frank raud said:


> Again, the problem with self training for self defense, is the lack of input from other, more experienced people. The bulk of people in that arena wouldn't be formally trained.  Perhaps, next time I spill Phil from accounting's Appletini at the office Christmas party, I can be confident I can handle his wrath with the knowledge I gained from Ashida Kim's Big Book of Ninja Knowledge. Unfortunately, within that bulk of people without formal training will be hockey players, American football and Rugby players. Can any of them perform Pinan kata? No. Are any of them capable of physical violence at a level to which you are incapable of responding? Who do you think would be more inclined to violence if you spilled their drink, Phil from accounting, or Biff, who works on the floor of a steel mill, and plays rugby on the weekend?
> 
> The logic of maybe the coach is not good, so I'd be better training myself in something I don't know anything about is brilliant. Have you read Phil Elmore's classic, Short Hand, Empty Hand? In it, our fearless hero posits that as he is not an expert, he is the perfect teacher for those less knowledgeable then him. His lack of skills and in depth understanding will make him a better instructor to the masses, as it is not necessary to "know" how to punch correctly, you should just do it. Damage to your hand and wrist that could have been avoided? Incidental.
> 
> I am familiar with the challenge of not having the art you are interested in being available near to you. I regularly attend seminars where students have travelled from other countries and continents to attend. Sometimes you need to travel if you absolutely must train in a style that is not available to you.



There's also a difference between not training a style that's not available (and thus training something else), vs. not training under an instructor at all.

Although I can kind of see the point about someone of mediocre knowledge being a better instructor.  People with a lot of knowledge often forget the details that someone completely uninitiated won't know.  I've had a few conversations with my guitar instructor where I will ask him a question, and he'll have to play a lick and pay attention to what he's doing before he can answer.  It's something that he does on muscle memory and he's forgotten how he does it.  

If you watch the show The Big Bang Theory, it's like Sheldon trying to teach Penny physics.  He's one of the most brilliant scientists on the planet (in the show), and she's a waitress with barely any college education.  He doesn't know how to talk to her for much of the show's run, because he just assumes she will understand the obscure scientific knowledge that he's known his whole life.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 27, 2020)

frank raud said:


> Again, the problem with self training for self defense, is the lack of input from other, more experienced people. The bulk of people in that arena wouldn't be formally trained. Perhaps, next time I spill Phil from accounting's Appletini at the office Christmas party, I can be confident I can handle his wrath with the knowledge I gained from Ashida Kim's Big Book of Ninja Knowledge. Unfortunately, within that bulk of people without formal training will be hockey players, American football and Rugby players. Can any of them perform Pinan kata? No. Are any of them capable of physical violence at a level to which you are incapable of responding? Who do you think would be more inclined to violence if you spilled their drink, Phil from accounting, or Biff, who works on the floor of a steel mill, and plays rugby on the weekend?



Knocking off experience here, you can get input from other people via sparring.   Not knocking off experience, nothing says you cant contact people and send them sparring videos etc.

And nothing says you would be able to handle phil, from accountings wrath if you split said drink with formal training.    He could for all intents and purposes fold you like a chair.


There is a scale in this, i am not proposing you go to the extreme end of start from scratch, as the internet exists and most people have access to it.  So they can get videos, text, pictures what have you from that on how to do various things, they could do what i stated above relay with a instructor or somone else via the internet with sparring videos etc ontop of that.



We can agree on several things though?  If you just want to learn kata you can do that without face to face instruction, if you have no intrest in fighting somone you can do that without sparring and without face to face instruction and if you want to fight somone you need at least a sparring partner and some form of information to go off.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> Knocking off experience here, you can get input from other people via sparring. Not knocking off experience, nothing says you cant contact people and send them sparring videos etc.



If the people you are sparring are not competent, then your sparring with them is just a formality.  You're not going to get meaningful input from someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

Sending people videos of yourself sparring is less efficient than just going to class for several reasons:

*Lack of training partners*.  Part of sparring is getting to use your techniques against different people.  Big guys, small guys, strong guys, fast guys.  That guy who has wicked good bobbing and weaving skills, the guy who's really aggressive, the guy who just wants to clinch.  If you're only sparring against one person you get good at sparring _that person_.  If you spar several people, you get good at adapting your style.
*Time to receive feedback.*  In class, you can get immediate feedback from your instructor.  Otherwise you need someone to watch your video, and it takes extra time and slows your progress.
*Delay between feedback and progress.*  In addition to the point before, once you get that feedback, you then have to apply it.  A lot of things aren't a simple "you need to do X" and then the person does X.  It takes time for the person to figure out exactly what you mean.  Often times you have to have the technique done to you, or you need to be guided through the technique to understand exactly what it is.  For example, when teaching the proper form of the back kick, often I will hold the shoulders of the student so they don't over-rotate.  Once they get the feel for that level of rotation, then they get it.  This isn't something I could do in a sparring video.
*It suffers all of the problems you associate with a class*.  You're relying on someone else to provide feedback and instruction.  What if their feedback is of poor quality?  Now you're going to adjust your training based on that feedback.  
What you are suggesting is something that is less efficient than just going to class, and yet suffers all of the pitfalls you associate with going to class.  

The one exception is the same as before - if you are already training and want a second opinion.  If you're already training, self-study can reinforce that training.  Sending a video to someone else can give you some different ideas.  But as your only method of learning it's a poor method.


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## frank raud (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> If you just want to learn kata you can do that without face to face instruction,


 Why would you want to learn kata by itself, without application? And again, without someone more knowledgeable than you in that particular kata, how do you know it is being performed correctly, and that your not essentially dancing to a version of Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting in your head? Personally I find kata difficult even with an instructor. To my understanding, kata is the formal way of demonstrating certain techniques. It may not be the way the technique is done in real life or a contest setting, but it is to be performed in a certain way for the kata to be correct. I fluffed my way through a couple of TKD belts, but I know that in doing kata in judo, the technique must be done just so, or it is not correct. I had a constant problem in performing uke otoshi from the nage no kata, as my leg would not be in the proper position when I finished the throw.   We (my sensies and I) kept working to correct it before I was allowed to test for my next belt.


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## jobo (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> Knocking off experience here, you can get input from other people via sparring.   Not knocking off experience, nothing says you cant contact people and send them sparring videos etc.
> 
> And nothing says you would be able to handle phil, from accountings wrath if you split said drink with formal training.    He could for all intents and purposes fold you like a chair.
> 
> ...


it may be clearer if you gave us some clue about why training is so impossible for you

when you first game here you were just about to start classes, you only had to pick which, a year or so later, thats not possible, are you tided to the house for some reason, is someone or quite a few people out to get you, that would explain why you are scared to leave the house and urgently need self defence skills

or if you dont want to post any actual info, just a simple I CANT ATTEND CLASSES will do and then people would try and help you as best they could

this current im doing it at home because its better is just nonsense, its not better but maybe you can work around some of the issues if your  on tag or  caring for a sick relative or some such


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I think the chances of a self taught egotist who knows better than all instructors including those on videos and books etc. who can eloquently debunk all knowledge of martial arts ...well no he can't actually..... in favour of his own 'brand' is going to fair poorly against anyone who can fight trained or untrained. The sheer weight of ignorance will hold him down.



Then he will know one way or the other.

If he spent 6 months self training and then did a jits and lost he would be ahead of instructors who have spent 20 years teaching but have never tested themselves.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> You would have a much better time if you were only intrested in "self defence", as then the bulk of people in that arena wouldnt be formally trained.



The issue with self defense instruction is that the depth of experience of the instructor is quite often about the same as everyone else.

And that they are probably just making stuff up as they go.

A martial art with some sort of quality control is a different beast.

I think the issue is you are comparing your self training to the lowest bar of regular martial arts instruction. Which is a cop out.

Yes you are on par with instruction. But you could if you wanted to get a better result for your time.

Martial arts isn't really a case that if you are as good as all the other chumps out there training then it is ok. This is personal development and you want the best for yourself that you can get because you are important.

So say for example you self train and become better than this guy.






The question is who cares?


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2020)

frank raud said:


> Again, the problem with self training for self defense, is the lack of input from other, more experienced people.



That is almost the issue with instructional self defense training as well.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Then he will know one way or the other.
> 
> If he spent 6 months self training and then did a jits and lost he would be ahead of instructors who have spent 20 years teaching but have never tested themselves.




I don't actually know any BJJ instructors who haven't competed, many still do. Perhaps BJJ could adopt the Judo practice of having to compete as well as grade to gain a belt, it would save arguments anyway.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I don't actually know any BJJ instructors who haven't competed, many still do. Perhaps BJJ could adopt the Judo practice of having to compete as well as grade to gain a belt, it would save arguments anyway.



I chose BJJ so he wouldn't get crippled if say his 6 months of self training doesn't work out. 

I am not comparing him to someone who had 20 years of BJJ.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

jobo said:


> it may be clearer if you gave us some clue about why training is so impossible for you
> 
> when you first game here you were just about to start classes, you only had to pick which, a year or so later, thats not possible, are you tided to the house for some reason, is someone or quite a few people out to get you, that would explain why you are scared to leave the house and urgently need self defence skills
> 
> ...



Based on his posts, it seems to be his arrogance masked as concern of quality control more than anything else.  He tries to be an authority on subjects, and argues to the death whenever anyone with any experience tells him he's wrong.  His trying to argue the vocabulary of what is and isn't a pattern in the TKD thread was a perfect example.



Tez3 said:


> I don't actually know any BJJ instructors who haven't competed, many still do. Perhaps BJJ could adopt the Judo practice of having to compete as well as grade to gain a belt, it would save arguments anyway.



As long as there are people who compete at the gym, I don't see the issue.  Say you and I are both BJJ instructors at the same school.  You compete, I don't.  When you and I roll together, you can tell me what about my technique would or wouldn't work in competition based on your experience.  When you see me teaching, you can correct me based on what you know from competition.  As long as I don't have an ego about it, I can defer to your experience.

The problem is if none of the instructors compete.  Then we wouldn't have that check in place.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I am not comparing him to someone who had 20 years of BJJ.




Well I wasn't either.



skribs said:


> As long as there are people who compete at the gym, I don't see the issue.




To be honest I don't either, DB does obviously. We don't have that many BJJ instructors here, it's still a growing style here ( Judo is the big ground style here) and BJJ ranking takes longer than most other styles. More instructors are coming up though which to my mind is great. We had a lot of Brazilians come across to teach, but with the current political climate we won't have any more coming and those we do have will leave so we need home grown ones.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 27, 2020)

I didn't read all of this; I couldn't.  But @Rat you can teach yourself and be oh so good.  I'm not sure at what other than self hypnosis.  You made a statement on kata having no value.  That alone shows how little you have learned from your self study.  Do you not see techniques in kata in those MA that use kata?  Do you see any multiple attacker defense in the kata of arts that use them?  If you study an art that has any, or mostly grappling, you will  be very lucky to learn any good grappling techniques;  even in a formal class with good instructors you will often need help from others to get it right.  Even the simplest looking technique can be more complicated than you can imagine.

I applaud your desire to learn a MA.  Especially if you have focused in on learning an art that isn't taught close to you.  I would recommend you take what local art that is closest to you and to the art you prefer.  Try to pick a school that seems to teach well.  It will stand you in good stead when you get to study the art you prefer.

But don't delude yourself that you can learn even partially as well by self teaching as you can in a good school with a good instructor and good students.


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## Headhunter (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> Knocking off experience here, you can get input from other people via sparring.   Not knocking off experience, nothing says you cant contact people and send them sparring videos etc.
> 
> And nothing says you would be able to handle phil, from accountings wrath if you split said drink with formal training.    He could for all intents and purposes fold you like a chair.
> 
> ...


If you want to get good at martial arts then you need an instructor that's it end of story. I can go teach myself a kata online in a couple of hours....but I'll be awful and terrible at that kata and be making a million mistakes.

I can go teach myself a bunch of judo throws but I wouldn't have a single chance of actually being able to use them for real.

Basically self training is the equivalent of aerobic boxing. Yes you'll be throwing punches yes you'll get some fitness but you still don't know how to punch properly or how to do a correct stance or a correct guard.

You can justify your lack of training anyway you wish. But no one will agree with it because the majority here have actually put in the real training hours and knows how hard it is to even get to a competent level with an instructor. 

So we know that it's basically impossible to get competent without one.

Again it's your choice you'll do what you want to do but simoly if you want to get good. Get a teacher if you're happy throwing your hands around copying YouTube then that's great good luck with it


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## Headhunter (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I will answer your question.  ,. With a question,.  If you are creating your own system,.  What would be your goals.


Why don't you just answer with a real answer


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## Headhunter (Feb 27, 2020)

Rat said:


> Clarification, i do belive you need at minimum a sparring partner to self study.  anything else seems optional/a luxury.    Unless you just want to do forms to keep active then you dont need one  or dont want it for actually fighting anyone.        You do just need a human being to be there to act as resistance and to try things on.


No you need more than a sparring partner. If I'm a guy who knows no martial arts and I get my buddy who also knows nothing to come to my house and we punch each other in the face for a while...how does that teach us anything....apart from the symptoms of concussion. Yes you can get tough and how to take a punch. But there's way way more to martial arts than being tough and taking a punch


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> As long as there are people who compete at the gym, I don't see the issue. Say you and I are both BJJ instructors at the same school. You compete, I don't. When you and I roll together, you can tell me what about my technique would or wouldn't work in competition based on your experience. When you see me teaching, you can correct me based on what you know from competition. As long as I don't have an ego about it, I can defer to your experience.
> 
> The problem is if none of the instructors compete. Then we wouldn't have that check in place.



The problem is with bjj is that a rank is a rank everywhere and so you wouldn't be able to take your mates word for it that you are a black belt.(mostly)

So you pretty much have to compete to grade.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> No you need more than a sparring partner. If I'm a guy who knows no martial arts and I get my buddy who also knows nothing to come to my house and we punch each other in the face for a while...how does that teach us anything....apart from the symptoms of concussion. Yes you can get tough and how to take a punch. But there's way way more to martial arts than being tough and taking a punch



So long as they are having fun. I don't see what the issue is. 

You have to understand that it is the individual not the system. 

Some people are training for their own goals. 

If you can't make instructorless training work then you don't understand it.

And if it works on the street then it is all the evidence you need.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I will answer your question.  ,. With a question,.  If you are creating your own system,.  What would be your goals.


Most likely it would be an efficient way to fight, and transmit that knowledge. Since you stated that you did create your own kung fu, what were your goals in doing so, how did you achieve them, and how do you know they were achieved?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> It would take a book worth of writing to explain many of the details in depth.     I respect all martial art systems .
> But the best system is what is best for you.  So I will speak on my journey. From a young age I was an avid watcher of Kung Fu theatre in the early 80's I became obsessed with northern shaloin mantis. I determined at a young age to be praying Kung master, my imagination went wild. I didn't care people were flying with ropes. Fast forward to age 14 ,I wanted to find a northern mantis school, but there were none in my area, so I tried some karate,jkd, several other schools but it was not wanted.  As I became an adult I wised up and lost interest in my original goal.  But I was still determined that real Kung Fu existed.   I got side tracked because relationships and my second love for music. Fast forward around age 27 ,I decided that if I could not find the school of my dreams, I would create my vision of the best Kung Fu system,. I was finally in control.
> To create a system ,you first have to  create the basics just like any basics in any school.
> 1. Stance -. Goal achieved
> ...


How do you determine though that those are achieved?

How do you know that the stances you've created are related to kung fu (if that's your goal), or effective (if that's your goal)? Same with punch/fist types/foot work. And how do you know your generation of power is an effective generation of power? 

To speak to that last one, since that seems the simplest to test, are you comparing the power generation from your style, with the power generation from other styles? Are you looking at kung fu movies/books/videos and seeing if it's philosophically the same (same way of using the feet and developing power through them, for instance)? Are you just developing it in a bubble/isolated from other martial arts/theory, and determining that once you're happy with it, then it's done?


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## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I am familiar with kung Fu stances, so chose one that is most suitable for the type of strikes I want to use.
> How to know the fist types or strikes soley depend on whether you want to just cause pain of real temporary short term or long term damage.
> At first I was isolating my self from to much influence, but when you hit a mental wall , I do research other styles that are similar to my goals, some times just finding one little pattern or a lil tip from a YouTube vid, or book can get you through.
> Your power effectiveness is determined by the striking range, short power or more common long range.
> The short power is hard to assess because if some one really used successfully on an opponent they just drop to the floor, you can see it in some forms. Or trying breaks


Ok, genuine honest advice here:  you need to find a real teacher.  Genuine Kung fu does exist.  Some of us here practice it in one form or another.  Get a teacher.  You can do it too, if you find a teacher.

What you are going on about is nonsense, quite frankly.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I am familiar with kung Fu stances, so chose one that is most suitable for the type of strikes I want to use.
> How to know the fist types or strikes soley depend on whether you want to just cause pain of real temporary short term or long term damage.
> At first I was isolating my self from to much influence, but when you hit a mental wall , I do research other styles that are similar to my goals, some times just finding one little pattern or a lil tip from a YouTube vid, or book can get you through.
> Your power effectiveness is determined by the striking range, short power or more common long range.
> The short power is hard to assess because if some one really used successfully on an opponent they just drop to the floor, you can see it in some forms. Or trying breaks


You're still avoiding actually answering my questions, but I can't tell if that's an issue from this format (it's tougher to convey meaning through text), or an intentional avoiding by you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> Don't be jealous,. Finally the insults come


A) nothing in there suggests he's jealous.
B) nothing in there is an insult.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I will answer your question.  ,. With a question,.  If you are creating your own system,.  What would be your goals.



You're not answering my question with a question.  You're avoiding the question.  You're saying you've met your goals with the Kung Fu you've created.  What are your goals that you've met?

However, to answer your question, if I was creating my own system, then my goal would be to create a curriculum which progressively teaches techniques from high percentage and easy to learn, to low percentage and easy -or- high percentage and difficult, to low percentage and difficult.  However, in creating my system, my plan would be first to make sure I fully understand my primary art, and to cross-train in other martial arts in order to learn the required skills.



irondome said:


> There's alot of self satisfaction learning through trial and error,. Vs the easier route of someone telling you the error. Also it solidifies your original intention that you can make wonderful progress, but you inevitably will hit walls, that's when you search and seek and research as many styles as possible through all available mediums.



The concept you're looking for is "reinventing the wheel."

Also, without feedback, you might not realize you're making errors, or you may go through a lot more trials to figure something out.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I guess the whole nonsense part



It doubles as both an insult and accurate assessment of what you said.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I guess the whole nonsense part


I don't view that as an insult. He's not saying you're nonsense, he's saying you're statements were nonsense, and they really don't make much sense. But he wasn't saying it in an insulting way.


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Your recipe is flawed. , You will just create an eclectic martial art



I want to create an art built on the shoulders of giants.  You want to create an art based on your own assumptions.


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## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Don't be jealous,. Finally the insults come


No one is jealous trust me on that


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## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> When my system is ready, and I have my school I will hold private  friendly challenges so anyone can test the weakness in my style.


Why do they have to be private


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## Cynik75 (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> I don't challenge for ego


Or you do not want many people see your fail. It is pure ego.


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Gotta love waking up to 6 notifications, and it's a bunch of dislikes and disagrees from someone rambling nonsense and avoiding questions.


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## jobo (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> Gotta love waking up to 6 notifications, and it's a bunch of dislikes and disagrees from someone rambling nonsense and avoiding questions.


thats very much my experience on here as well, welcome to my world

ive given you a like for pointing it out, now some sense of irony that thats what you do would be good


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## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> What system do you train


Tibetan White Crane.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 28, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The issue with self defense instruction is that the depth of experience of the instructor is quite often about the same as everyone else.
> 
> And that they are probably just making stuff up as they go.
> 
> ...



No comment for the first sentence, it would be down to opinion and i disagree on said matter.  

Second sentence, that is argubly what fighting is. 

Third: In which manner are you using you?    As this is entirely detached from personal experinces etc and isnt really based on anything I do.    If you mean it in the other way, i support a statement and agree about one made earlier about you can self teach yourself up to a certain level, that level would vary on person.         And going back to earlier where i made the statement its on a scale, you self study in formal training as well, as they expect you to go home and practice.      (i have another rant on that, but for another time and place)

Fourth:    In my view and focus, that is suffcient.  Given i would be in it for learning how to fgiht to defend myself, being better at that than any other chum, would be meeting my goals and suffcient for me.   By such criteria it would be good if it met my goals.


And if he is the guy who is assaling me, and he is deemed to be above average for the area. Then it would be suffcient to be better than him.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 28, 2020)

oftheherd1 said:


> I didn't read all of this; I couldn't.  But @Rat you can teach yourself and be oh so good.  I'm not sure at what other than self hypnosis.  You made a statement on kata having no value.  That alone shows how little you have learned from your self study.  Do you not see techniques in kata in those MA that use kata?  Do you see any multiple attacker defense in the kata of arts that use them?  If you study an art that has any, or mostly grappling, you will  be very lucky to learn any good grappling techniques;  even in a formal class with good instructors you will often need help from others to get it right.  Even the simplest looking technique can be more complicated than you can imagine.
> 
> I applaud your desire to learn a MA.  Especially if you have focused in on learning an art that isn't taught close to you.  I would recommend you take what local art that is closest to you and to the art you prefer.  Try to pick a school that seems to teach well.  It will stand you in good stead when you get to study the art you prefer.
> 
> But don't delude yourself that you can learn even partially as well by self teaching as you can in a good school with a good instructor and good students.


I never made the statement "i can teach myself and be oh so good", nor have i made any that were meant to come off as that.    If i have made said statements, it would next to certainly be in a joking manner.    In this thread as far as memory serves, i have only spoken in the third person and in regards to self study, not mentioned my own persuits or ability in said area unless it was for example or eleboration purposes.  


I have made many statements on kata.      I dont belive you have read all of them,   but to detail my view in greater detail and more accurately: The fighting value of kata is dubious at best and it factually has no fighting value on its own.      The spirtual/fitness value can be argued on a case by case basis, but the former is down to the beholder.    If you are not a spirtual person it would be useless.      You can safely erase it and not loose any fighting effectiveness.  (as has been proven by combat sports and martial arts that dont have kata in it)



For the final point, i fundementally disagree.  Self study can be comparative to a certain level of formal training, which is one of the points i have made in this thread.     To what level can be left to argument until somone does a proper study on the matter.       The entire thread is about the last point made.  Pros and cons to self study, its abilities and why it gets a bad reputation all things considered.


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## O'Malley (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> I have made many statements on kata.      I dont belive you have read all of them,   but to detail my view in greater detail and more accurately: The fighting value of kata is dubious at best and it factually has no fighting value on its own.      The spirtual/fitness value can be argued on a case by case basis, but the former is down to the beholder.    If you are not a spirtual person it would be useless.      You can safely erase it and not loose any fighting effectiveness.  (as has been proven by combat sports and martial arts that dont have kata in it)



Could you please share your training history in arts that use kata (style+duration+instructor) so that we can understand how much of these very strong statements is grounded in real world experience?



> For the final point, i fundementally disagree.  Self study can be comparative to a certain level of formal training, which is one of the points i have made in this thread.     To what level can be left to argument until somone does a proper study on the matter. The entire thread is about the last point made.  Pros and cons to self study, its abilities and why it gets a bad reputation all things considered.



On what experience are you basing these affirmations? How did you measure and compare the effectiveness of self study vs formal training?

I believe that elaborating in that way would help you communicate your point.


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> Second sentence, that is argubly what fighting is.



It absolutely is not.  Fighting is about adapting and improvising, yes.  But adapting and improvising using skills and concepts that you already know and understand from drilling them thousands of times over.  It's like playing guitar.  Most writing or improvising is not based on randomness or making it up as you go.  It's based on knowing techniques, scales, chords, and arpeggios, and what works well together or doesn't.  You can play random notes at random times and it will sound horrible (unless that's the sound you're going for).  When I'm improvising, I'm playing patterns I already know and connecting them in different ways.



Rat said:


> Fourth: In my view and focus, that is suffcient. Given i would be in it for learning how to fgiht to defend myself, being better at that than any other chum, would be meeting my goals and suffcient for me. By such criteria it would be good if it met my goals.



So @drop bear is correct.  Your goals are to be better than the lowest common denominator.  You set the bar at the lowest quality of instruction, and as long as you're better than that, you're happy.  You may very well get better by yourself than you would going to a school where the instructor spends more time on his phone than he does on the mat.  But that's because you're basically teaching yourself in a class of people who all taught themselves.  To put it into tier terms, if you only compare yourself to F tier schools, then you're going to be happy being a D tier fighter.  But you're still probably F tier.  For 99.99% of would-be fighters, I think D tier is the ceiling for self training, especially if you do so without prior experience.



Rat said:


> I never made the statement "i can teach myself and be oh so good", nor have i made any that were meant to come off as that.



You write articles.  You give advice.  You argue with highly experienced martial artists about what works and what doesn't.  You definitely come across as someone who thinks he knows everything and has all the answers.  You present yourself as an authoritative source on martial arts information.  And when people point out the holes in your advice, or point out how your logic doesn't match with actual experience, you get defensive and try and prove why you're smarter than everyone in the thread.  This happens in pretty much every thread I've seen you in.



O'Malley said:


> Could you please share your training history in arts that use kata (style+duration+instructor) so that we can understand how much of these very strong statements is grounded in real world experience?



From previous threads, I think he has around 3 months in ITF Taekwondo.  He learned the exercises (mini forms) but hadn't learned any of the patterns (official forms) yet.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 28, 2020)

Ok, to bring some of my points back to here as i think some may have been lost:


 All martial arts systems came from nothing but human instincts and experience.     In the modern age you would more than likely not start with nothing as the internet exists.   

If you access said material, pending on yourself, you could self teach yourself enough to be compartible with a certain level of formal training. For arguments sake, the media in question is good.

Some skills are inhernetly easier to learn than others.
For self defence purposes you only need to be as good as the average populace of your area.  
Thats not extensive but the high notes.


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> Ok, to bring some of my points back to here as i think some may have been lost:
> 
> 
> All martial arts systems came from nothing but human instincts and experience.     In the modern age you would more than likely not start with nothing as the internet exists.
> ...




Are we talking about creating your own martial art or about learning one that already exists?  If you're talking about learning one that already exists, this point is irrelevant, because we're talking about learning something and not about creating something.  If you're talking about creating something, then what you want to do is called reinventing the wheel.  You can start with the internet and get vague ideas you don't fully understand, or you can start with formal classes and actually learn the arts.  Most martial arts today are not created out of a vacuum.  They are created by people who have a lot of experience in an art, but either want to focus on a specific aspect or want to remove stuff they didn't find as useful.  But these are people who have enough experience in their art to know what works and what doesn't work when done by high-level fighters.
It's easier to make your argument look good when you're comparing the best of one thing against the worst of another.  It's easy to write a better TV episode than the Chicago episode of Stranger Things.  It doesn't mean Stranger Things is bad or that it's easy to write a better show than Stranger Things.  If you have the absolute best media available, and you and your best friend are both highly motivated and capable of introspection, you're still going to miss so much of what goes into the art and it's going to be slower paced learning than if you were at a competent school.  Not even a good school or the best school.  A merely competent school is going to be better.  You get instant feedback, you get continuous feedback while you're improving a technique, and you get the wealth of experience from all of the fighters there.  
True, but irrelevant.  Some skills are easier to learn than others.  You still learn those skills faster in class than you do figuring it out on your own.
If that's your goal, you're not going to get there training at home.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 28, 2020)

O'Malley said:


> Could you please share your training history in arts that use kata (style+duration+instructor) so that we can understand how much of these very strong statements is grounded in real world experience?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Apologies for the double post.


Common sense and observation is the stem for this.   If you only do kata, you will not beat somone who has only fought.  They are not better or a prerequisite to "normal" exercise, and S&C commonly done might even surpass them.     the Spirtual side of them is useless to somone who isnt spirtual or doesnt express it that way.

The only 2 things that i think they stand up to on their own merits without anything else added, is they are a form of spirtuality and calisthenics.   So thats the only thing i will agree they can stand up to on their own merits.      And plenty of other fighting systems and sports dont include them and do plenty fine without them.   So they can indeed be effectively eliminated for fighting purposes, exercise purposes and spirtuality purposes.   

Example of a few combat sports:  Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo.  


Second:  The main issue here is that, there isnt a study or many studies done on training methods and the like.    And several places claim to have done personal study, but i dont think many of them publish any proper papers etc on the matter, so effectively worthless.

But with that in mind, some skills are factually easier to pick up than others.  and you do have some fighting instints built into you.     So, if you have access to some material (more than what the first humans who codified systems had) you could learn some of the skills in it.   the amount would be individual.

My personal expereince in such a matter is picking up a few things fairly easily and following defendu and other things like it.    Basically the concept and thoughtl ine you only need X amount of techniques to cover the most common issues you will find.  And said techniques being easy to pick up, retain and use under stress.     My secondary experience is watching HEMA be resurected mainly from books by a variety of people, some of which havent had any fencing experience.     And as no martial systems exist (or many) to apply any of the principles etc to it, they just studied the material they could find and sparred.     

You arent going to be technically perfect and we can dipsute if you can call yourself "good", but you only need to know enough to essentially put your fist into the person until they stop being a threat to you.  

 Addendum:   I for some reason thought, you were the same person as the person i orginally quoted, so some of the wording might be off, didnt catch it until a read read.


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> Common sense and observation is the stem for this.



What observation?  You haven't even learned a full kata!



Rat said:


> Second: The main issue here is that, there isnt a study or many studies done on training methods and the like. And several places claim to have done personal study, but i dont think many of them publish any proper papers etc on the matter, so effectively worthless.



This is the problem.  Your "training" relies on studies and articles.  You can't even base your opinion on your experience because you don't have much.  Without that experience, you don't even know how to read those articles and studies.



Rat said:


> My personal expereince in such a matter is picking up a few things fairly easily and following defendu and other things like it. Basically the concept and thoughtl ine you only need X amount of techniques to cover the most common issues you will find. And said techniques being easy to pick up, retain and use under stress.



How do you know you haven't just learned the gross motion?  How do you know you fully understand the technique?  How do you know what the common issues you will find are?  How do you know you can retain those techniques at a proficient level, instead of slipping back to the gross motion?  How do you know you can use them under stress?

The roundhouse kick is fairly easy for most people to do.  But to really understand the nuances of it, and to have the technique done at a high enough level to effectively use it in stressful conditions, it takes years of practice.  And when you drill in those stressful situations, you need someone else watching you to see your mistakes, because you're too busy worrying about your opponent to notice your technical issues.



> My secondary experience is watching HEMA be resurected mainly from books by a variety of people, some of which havent had any fencing experience. And as no martial systems exist (or many) to apply any of the principles etc to it, they just studied the material they could find and sparred.



*This isn't experience that you can claim as your own.  *This is you living vicariously through someone else, through their videos and articles.  I think we have found the root of the problem here.  You're considering your experience to be what you've read.  You need to actually experience it.  To see it first person, real time, with your own eyes.  Only then will you truly be able to learn.  Otherwise, it's all just guesswork.


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## frank raud (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> Apologies for the double post.
> 
> 
> .     the Spirtual side of them is useless to somone who isnt spirtual or doesnt express it that way.
> ...


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## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

frank raud said:


> Judo has no kata? Some guy named Jigoro
> 
> Kano said something to the effect that 1/3 of your judo should be kata. But you say there is none, so he probably doesn't know what he is talking about. It could be argued that shadowboxing is a form of kata, in the same way wrestling drills could be looked at as two man kata. Of course, kata is an Eastern concept, so in Western arts when you repeat a sequence of movements to ingrain the pattern, they are referred to as drills.



_Technical note.  If you want to break up a quote, you have to put the code around it.  For example:_
[.quote=frank raud,post: 1991163, member: 8489"]Segment A[./quote]
Discussion A.
[.quote]Segment B.[./quote]
Discussion B.
_It will automatically fill in the name, post, and member number.  Just add the [./quote] at the end of each segment you are quoting, and [.quote] at the beginning of the next segment.  That way you can easily see the quotes and the replies.  Don't use the period "." inside the bracket, I only did that so you could see the code I was writing.
_
I think a big difference between drills and kata is that drills are *generally *much more directly applicable than kata.  Kata are typically stylized, and/or designed as a cross between a neuromuscular exercise and direct martial training.  Drills tend to be more direct.  Most kata I've learned are not performed the way you would fight, but drills are most often done as you would use the technique in a fight.


----------



## Ivan (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> This should be fun, prefrace for this: training is in quotations as i dislike calling it such.   To "train" in martial arts by its literal definition all you need to do is any activity to aid your fighting skills.
> 
> Right, now to start my rambling on the subject.
> 
> ...


A lot of the stuff I know about fighting I learnt myself. Much of it was instilled by my father when I was young, some by the boxing coaches, some in my Taekwondo sessions and so on. But without me having the motivation to practice at home every now and then, I'd be rigid. By this I mean, I wouldn't fight like *me.* I wouldn't use what I would find more natural for me to use, I would use what I was *taught* to use. There is a difference. Sometimes they intertwine; you might that something you learn is actually more suited to you than what you have been using up until now. But someone who can only repeat movements that he has been taught is not a martial artist or a fighter. Self learning is an essential process in which everyone discovers who they are when they get in the ring. 

I am all for strict, militarised training in the sense that I give anyone who does not follow my instructions, when I undertake warm ups or drills, a lot of push ups and in the sense that I feel like structure is needed in training. But a personal element is like the meat in your steak - essential.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> No comment for the first sentence, it would be down to opinion and i disagree on said matter.
> 
> Second sentence, that is argubly what fighting is.
> 
> ...



You are taking the idea that a huge bulk of self defence training is probably worthless and using that to justify self training.

Where I traditionally have not seen the justification in either.

Now that aside if you wanted to try it I am interested to see the results because as an experiment it would be kind of interesting.

So how will you test it to see if your idea works?

I still think the BJJ comp is the go. Here is a quick list of the moves you would need.
The 16 Most Important Techniques for the BJJ Beginner


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> My secondary experience is watching HEMA be resurected mainly from books by a variety of people, some of which havent had any fencing experience.     And as no martial systems exist (or many) to apply any of the principles etc to it, they just studied the material they could find and sparred.



Watching someone else do something doesn't really count as experience.
HEMA never died out. The things found in the surviving written works had evolved as part of modern fencing, but being able to deconstruct and reverse engineer things made a big difference.
You're also making the unfounded assumption that these reconstructions are essentially correct. It's entirely possible that if Silver were alive, our efforts would result in a massive facepalm.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 28, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Watching someone else do something doesn't really count as experience.
> HEMA never died out. The things found in the surviving written works had evolved as part of modern fencing, but being able to deconstruct and reverse engineer things made a big difference.
> You're also making the unfounded assumption that these reconstructions are essentially correct. It's entirely possible that if Silver were alive, our efforts would result in a massive facepalm.


Just want to add to this that the people who initially reconstructed hema included trained martial artists with weapon experience prior to the endeavor, along with professional historians whose job it is to reverse engineer things from history.


----------



## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2020)

Rat said:


> Apologies for the double post.
> 
> 
> Common sense and observation is the stem for this.   If you only do kata, you will not beat somone who has only fought.  They are not better or a prerequisite to "normal" exercise, and S&C commonly done might even surpass them.     the Spirtual side of them is useless to somone who isnt spirtual or doesnt express it that way.
> ...


You got asked what your experience is and you just rambled out a load of nonsense without answering the question because you don't want to say the real answer...no experience


----------



## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2020)

Ivan said:


> A lot of the stuff I know about fighting I learnt myself. Much of it was instilled by my father when I was young, some by the boxing coaches, some in my Taekwondo sessions and so on. But without me having the motivation to practice at home every now and then, I'd be rigid. By this I mean, I wouldn't fight like *me.* I wouldn't use what I would find more natural for me to use, I would use what I was *taught* to use. There is a difference. Sometimes they intertwine; you might that something you learn is actually more suited to you than what you have been using up until now. But someone who can only repeat movements that he has been taught is not a martial artist or a fighter. Self learning is an essential process in which everyone discovers who they are when they get in the ring.
> 
> I am all for strict, militarised training in the sense that I give anyone who does not follow my instructions, when I undertake warm ups or drills, a lot of push ups and in the sense that I feel like structure is needed in training. But a personal element is like the meat in your steak - essential.


No one is saying self training isn't important but what OP is saying is that he can learn without any teacher


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Ivan said:


> A lot of the stuff I know about fighting I learnt myself. Much of it was instilled by my father when I was young, some by the boxing coaches, some in my Taekwondo sessions and so on. But without me having the motivation to practice at home every now and then, I'd be rigid. By this I mean, I wouldn't fight like *me.* I wouldn't use what I would find more natural for me to use, I would use what I was *taught* to use. There is a difference. Sometimes they intertwine; you might that something you learn is actually more suited to you than what you have been using up until now. But someone who can only repeat movements that he has been taught is not a martial artist or a fighter. Self learning is an essential process in which everyone discovers who they are when they get in the ring.
> 
> I am all for strict, militarised training in the sense that I give anyone who does not follow my instructions, when I undertake warm ups or drills, a lot of push ups and in the sense that I feel like structure is needed in training. But a personal element is like the meat in your steak - essential.



Like @Headhunter said, it's not about whether or not you do your homework when you're not in class.  This question is whether you can become competent without ever going to class.

The funny thing is that while the OP doesn't think going to class is worth it (because the class might be low quality), he's perfectly willing to assume that all of the other resources he uses are high quality.


----------



## frank raud (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> _Technical note.  If you want to break up a quote, you have to put the code around it.  For example:_
> [.quote=frank raud,post: 1991163, member: 8489"]Segment A[./quote]
> Discussion A.
> [.quote]Segment B.[./quote]
> ...



Thank you for the technical correction on quotes. First time using that function on my phone, will stick to my laptop.

I won't disagree with your definitions of kata and drills, but they do have more in common than what separates them.


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

frank raud said:


> Thank you for the technical correction on quotes. First time using that function on my phone, will stick to my laptop.
> 
> I won't disagree with your definitions of kata and drills, but they do have more in common than what separates them.



I prefer to make my more complicated replies on my computer, too.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

Why do folks continue to have the same circular, pointless discussion with the same OP?  This has all been hashed out before.  Nothing comes of it.  A new thread like this ought to get the sound of crickets.


----------



## frank raud (Feb 28, 2020)

One of the most commonly performed judo kata. It is a requirement for belt testing in many countries.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Why do folks continue to have the same circular, pointless discussion with the same OP?  This has all been hashed out before.  Nothing comes of it.  A new thread like this ought to get the sound of crickets.



There are a few posters who just keep making the same posts with different phrasing. It's not against the rules, although I too sometimes wonder why anybody responds. Then I remember that some of them might not have been around last time it was hashed out.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are a few posters who just keep making the same posts with different phrasing. It's not against the rules, although I too sometimes wonder why anybody responds. Then I remember that some of them might not have been around last time it was hashed out.


Ahh, true dat!


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Why do folks continue to have the same circular, pointless discussion with the same OP?  This has all been hashed out before.  Nothing comes of it.  A new thread like this ought to get the sound of crickets.





Dirty Dog said:


> There are a few posters who just keep making the same posts with different phrasing. It's not against the rules, although I too sometimes wonder why anybody responds. Then I remember that some of them might not have been around last time it was hashed out.



Because when a newbie comes to the forum and sees his insane rantings, they also need to see all of these ludicrous ideas debunked.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> Because when a newbie comes to the forum and sees his insane rantings, they also need to see all of these ludicrous ideas debunked.


Or, if there are zero responses to his thread, that might also send a message.


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Or, if there are zero responses to his thread, that might also send a message.


That there was nothing to refute?

The internet is built on people correcting everything.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> That there was nothing to refute?
> 
> The internet is built on people correcting everything.


Refuting the nonsense on the internet becomes more than a full-time job, and last I looked it did not come with a salary.  People like Rat just want you to engage.  Lack of engagement sends a message, when it is universal (which admittedly is probably not realistic).

At any rate, I’ve given up trying to correct all the wrongs.  I can do a little here and there, I’m more willing if it’s a newbie, but I can’t do it over and over with those who are hell-bent on it.  Let them believe their own nonsense.  I’ve got more important things to do.  Like just about anything.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Why do folks continue to have the same circular, pointless discussion with the same OP?  This has all been hashed out before.  Nothing comes of it.  A new thread like this ought to get the sound of crickets.


Slow day at the office?


----------



## jobo (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Ok
> Ok.  I tend to forget I,m talking to a bunch of low iq morons who relentlessly train B's martial arts holding to it like a 5 year old not wanting to relenquish there pascifer.    I am a Kung Fu founder, when my system is ready I will do "TRIAL" testing. Before I release it to the public,.  When you create a prototype you test it before realease it to public .


 who are you going to test it against ? id be interested to read the methodology for the testing


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Hey low iq ,.    You are a moron,. Your style is garbage keep paying people to teach you because your to stupid to think for your self.  I bet your the kinda of person to pay for guitar like all the other idiots on you tube, you will never be a rock star , you have no creativity


Ah yes, other people are insulting you. That's the problem.


----------



## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Ok
> Ok.  I tend to forget I,m talking to a bunch of low iq morons who relentlessly train B's martial arts holding to it like a 5 year old not wanting to relenquish there pascifer.    I am a Kung Fu founder, when my system is ready I will do "TRIAL" testing. Before I release it to the public,.  When you create a prototype you test it before realease it to public .


Whatever you say master ken


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Hey low iq ,.    You are a moron,. Your style is garbage keep paying people to teach you because your to stupid to think for your self.  I bet your the kinda of person to pay for guitar like all the other idiots on you tube, you will never be a rock star , you have no creativity



You've obviously missed my "Science Fiction in Sci-Fi and Fantasy" posts over in the lounge.  You should check them out.  If you don't get yourself banned first.


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Whatever you say master ken



Don't insult Master Ken like that.


----------



## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Hey low iq ,.    You are a moron,. Your style is garbage keep paying people to teach you because your to stupid to think for your self.  I bet your the kinda of person to pay for guitar like all the other idiots on you tube, you will never be a rock star , you have no creativity


Lol I'll say goodbye because you keep this up you'll be banned soon enough


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Refuting the nonsense on the internet becomes more than a full-time job, and last I looked it did not come with a salary.  People like Rat just want you to engage.  Lack of engagement sends a message, when it is universal (which admittedly is probably not realistic).
> 
> At any rate, I’ve given up trying to correct all the wrongs.  I can do a little here and there, I’m more willing if it’s a newbie, but I can’t do it over and over with those who are hell-bent on it.  Let them believe their own nonsense.  I’ve got more important things to do.  Like just about anything.



I have a job in which the better the job I do, the less work I have (for the most part).  I also happen to sit at my desk on my computer, waiting for people to need my help.  If my systems run smooth, then that help is less frequently requested.


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Lol I'll say goodbye because you keep this up you'll be banned soon enough



The "your to stupid" is what cracks me up.


----------



## Headhunter (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Hey low iq ,.    You are a moron,. Your style is garbage keep paying people to teach you because your to stupid to think for your self.  I bet your the kinda of person to pay for guitar like all the other idiots on you tube, you will never be a rock star , you have no creativity


*you're

Maybe check your spelling and grammar before insulting someone else's intelligence....just a suggestion.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> . I already answered this. American freestyle karate,so
> 
> White crane is cool is it a southern style of white crane you study?


Tibetan.  It kind of gets lumped in with Southern Styles, but it is Tibetan.  It is a long-Fist style with some similarities to Choy Lay Fut.

Fukien White Crane is a completely different system, different history, different methodology, and it is southern.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Does it Involve alot of high kicks



Of course not. Nobody can actually use high kicks on Da Streets.


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Apologize and I will delete it



I'd rather you leave it up.  It's hilarious.  Try and figure out why I find it so funny.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'd rather you leave it up.  It's hilarious.  Try and figure out why I find it so funny.



Because irony is priceless?


----------



## skribs (Feb 28, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because irony is priceless?



Shhh...I wanted him to figure it out.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Why are you so mean



He's not making fun of you. He really has started a whole series of threads on Martial Arts in Science Fiction and Fantasy. Although he did sort of screw up the title in his message to you. I think his latest topic was Zero G Martial Arts.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2020)

skribs said:


> Like @Headhunter said, it's not about whether or not you do your homework when you're not in class.  This question is whether you can become competent without ever going to class.
> 
> The funny thing is that while the OP doesn't think going to class is worth it (because the class might be low quality), he's perfectly willing to assume that all of the other resources he uses are high quality.



Which is the argument that gets used for things like awareness and deescalation training by the way.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Does it Involve alot of high kicks


A few.  I would not describe it as heavily focused on kicks.  But I see kicking as a skill that some people wish to focus on more than others, and that is ok.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> There is value in all systems



Really. Why?

I mean why does the existence of a system automatically make it valuable?


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Does your system infighting surpass wing Chun or is there similarties,.


I don’t know Wing Chun well, I only spent a few years training it. So I cannot comment or compare wing Chun.  These two systems are very different.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> one thing I have noticed amongst fellow martial artist from various styles and back grounds, every individual has there favorite technique's
> That they practice and use more than the others



And you have never met a bad martial artist whose favorite technique doesn't work?


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Are there any similarties that  you have noticed


I never really understood the driving principles of wing Chun, in terms of power generation and such.  I do understand the Tibetan Crane method.  If Wing Chun is similar in principle, then it manifests in a very different way.  It could simply be different.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2020)

irondome said:


> Ste
> 
> What white crane Knowledge could you share to benefit the the Kung Fu world


Nothing without context.  It is a method that is built upon a foundation.  When they foundation is properly understood, then the techniques work very well and you can become very creative with techniques, still with excellent results.  When taken out of context, without the proper foundation, those techniques do not work.  Kung fu is not something that can be pieced together from unconnected sources.  Outside of the proper context, it does not work.


----------



## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

irondome said:


> My reply was incomprehensible on purpose , why on Earth would I share intament secrets to my art on a random
> On a random forum to a bunch of strangers,. Your probably cool, we may,. Be able to make awesome music, I will need a Rythm and bass player





irondome said:


> Ste
> 
> What white crane Knowledge could you share to benefit the the Kung Fu world



So you don't want to share your knowledge, but you're asking for his knowledge?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 29, 2020)

irondome said:


> Give me your cell #. I will call you


What do you plan to do after calling him?


----------



## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

irondome said:


> Yeah,.  Why don't you make up my history.   Go ahead. Have fun



I didn't make anything up.  I hit the quote button and let the site copy and paste what you wrote vertabim.



irondome said:


> How would you feel , if I,m best friend s
> With the forum owner,and I'm evaluate ing, the mods to decide who stays and goes



Brilliant move, pretending to be a moderator.



irondome said:


> Give me your cell #. I will call you



Yes, I'm going to give my personal information to a random stranger on the internet that hates me.


----------



## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

irondome said:


> .   Would you prefer my #



Why would I want that?


----------



## Cynik75 (Feb 29, 2020)

irondome said:


> Ok
> Ok.  I tend to forget I,m talking to a bunch of low iq morons who relentlessly train B's martial arts holding to it like a 5 year old not wanting to relenquish there pascifer.    I am a Kung Fu founder, when my system is ready I will do "TRIAL" testing. Before I release it to the public,.  When you create a prototype you test it before realease it to public .


OK. Till that moment I stay thinking you are delusional or liar. Maybe just a troll. But wish you the best with your "new kung fu system". 
BTW: do you know there is no martial art/arts called "kung fu"? You can "kung fu" even with knitting.


----------



## Cynik75 (Feb 29, 2020)

irondome said:


> Delusionsal liar, was the system you train created by a human being?


Are you talking to yourself?


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 29, 2020)

@frank raud

Cant quote the post specfically.          But, to keep it breif as i am not having a argument about kata here.    (anyone can start a thead on its pros and cons for the umpteeth time if they so wish)

Sport judo has basically erased it.   And then they do it diffrently from other styles.   It is obviously a generalised statement as the variences between them can be slight to great.     I will also highlight me stating " SPORT" beforehand.       I wasnt denoting all judo, only people who just do it for sport.  But then as stated the other two examples dont do kata how its used in context anyway.   And we can indeed argue that shadowboxing or what have you is kata or what have you, not a argument i wish to have here at all, so it will be left at that.

Edit: I wrote above before reading other posts in the matter.   But to clarify, i had solo kata in my mind when writing it.



Dirty Dog said:


> Watching someone else do something doesn't really count as experience.
> HEMA never died out. The things found in the surviving written works had evolved as part of modern fencing, but being able to deconstruct and reverse engineer things made a big difference.
> You're also making the unfounded assumption that these reconstructions are essentially correct. It's entirely possible that if Silver were alive, our efforts would result in a massive facepalm.



HEMA has died out in many ways, many styles of it have died out.  and by that i mean the lingege hasnt survived from its origins.    If any have, i will put them down to be a rariety.   I dont consider modern sabre, epee or foil to be HEMA, nor do any of them cover longsword, polearm etc.


This issue is inherent in any reconstructive effort, you go into it with your experiences bias's etc.    The more ifnormation you have on the subject the better the recontructive effort will be.    As somone who is quite intrested in living history i do know this issue quite well, there can be a lot of gaps you need to fill with experience/assumption/presumption.    And then if its merged into something modern, you as you stated need to deconstruct it, but you will have your modern bias to it.

the only standard you can apply is, if it works it is correct.   As you cant pop back to 1600 and asking the fencing teacher, nor are you likely to be using a longsword in war or defending yourself anytime soon.       There is also the conundrum of people doing HEMA for historical recontruction and preservation and for re enactment purposes, and ones who want to treat it like a martial art and think they should evolve and change some of the things done in it to things that work better for them.

Edit: That was quite rambley, hopefully a point was made there.  And i also wrote that before reading the later replies.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 29, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You are taking the idea that a huge bulk of self defence training is probably worthless and using that to justify self training.
> 
> Where I traditionally have not seen the justification in either.
> 
> ...



I dont think its worthless.  But if you pressure test at home, what makes it diffrent?   Only the potentional lack of a instructor, and then we can argue until blue in the face if the person can pick up some skills at home from media and fill in the gaps while doing it.        And then if said school doesnt do pressure testing, you dont know if anything works.       The only logic i have is the saying of, "learn from others" and something about a fool doesnt, no point or need to start from scratch and you wont if you have access to the internet.


Someone really should do a study in this area.   I cant access competions (and then as discussed before everyone in sport comeptions gets training beforehand, so not a fair test) and then i am not "untrained" so i dont fall in this catergory fully as well.       

I would love to have somone basically take 100 people and do diffrent training solutions with them and find out who retains information the better and all that nonsense.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Why do folks continue to have the same circular, pointless discussion with the same OP?  This has all been hashed out before.  Nothing comes of it.  A new thread like this ought to get the sound of crickets.




At least its in its own thread this time.   

Also, in my defence, my most recent posts have been prefixed with "my ramblings on" or something to that effect.


----------



## frank raud (Feb 29, 2020)

How exactly, has sport judo erased kata?


----------



## frank raud (Feb 29, 2020)

If you don't want to consider shadowboxing as kata( a fair assessment, could go either way), please name Western martial arts that do have kata, otherwise pointing out wrestling and boxing is irrelevant, if no other Western art practices kata.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Feb 29, 2020)

frank raud said:


> If you don't want to consider shadowboxing as kata( a fair assessment, could go either way), please name Western martial arts that do have kata, otherwise pointing out wrestling and boxing is irrelevant, if no other Western art practices kata.



I fail to see the point?    It is examples of arts that have erased it in comaprision with some that have kept it showing you can erase it without effecting the fighting ability of the persons in it.     As far as i got, all western martial arts dont have kata in it, or its a argument if it is or isnt.   (one which we arent having here).     Western for sake of argument is political/cultural, so western european.    I dont have a encyclopedic knowledge of everyone that existed though.


----------



## Headhunter (Feb 29, 2020)

Rat said:


> I fail to see the point?    It is examples of arts that have erased it in comaprision with some that have kept it showing you can erase it without effecting the fighting ability of the persons in it.     As far as i got, all western martial arts dont have kata in it, or its a argument if it is or isnt.   (one which we arent having here).     Western for sake of argument is political/cultural, so western european.    I dont have a encyclopedic knowledge of everyone that existed though.


You don't have any kind of knowledge on the subject of martial arts. You're talking about katas like you know anything about it. You don't. Someone who goes and does only kata has more knowledge than you because at least they go and train and learn


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 29, 2020)

Rat said:


> I have made many statements on kata.      I dont belive you have read all of them,   but to detail my view in greater detail and more accurately: The fighting value of kata is dubious at best and it factually has no fighting value on its own.      The spirtual/fitness value can be argued on a case by case basis, but the former is down to the beholder.    If you are not a spirtual person it would be useless.      You can safely erase it and not loose any fighting effectiveness.  (as has been proven by combat sports and martial arts that dont have kata in it)



I agree with your statement within the context of you, personally.  

You have never learned kata.  You do not understand it.  Therefor for you, the practice of kata is worthless.  I do agree with that.

Kata is not necessary as part of learning to fight.  there are, obviously, many clear examples of folks who can fight, have learned to fight, have studied martial methods that do not include kata and yet can fight very well.  There is no room to argue that. 

kata that is poorly understood can also be a waste of time and effort.  So for some other folks who practice kata, I would agree that it is useless and is a waste of time, as well.

some kata are, in my opinion, poorly designed.  They are created by folks with a shallow understanding of their martial methods and the role that kata should play within the context of training.  These people create their own kata, and for many of them, their creations are garbage.  For these people and their students, the practice of kata is also worthless.

You do however, fail to understand that kata can be a valuable training tool, one of many training tools, one tool in the toolbox, for those who understand it.  For them, it is a useful tool.  The fact that kata is useless for you, in no way negates the fact that it is very useful for many other folks.

You can cut a log using a variety of tools.  An axe does a good job, as long as you don't need a clean and straight edge.  A hand saw can do a good job, can even give a good clean edge if you are skilled with it.  A table saw does a good job too, as long as the depth of cut is large enough to handle the log.  Even a knife can get the job done if you work at it long enough, and if the knife is big enough.

If you only know how to use a hand saw or an axe, that does not negate the fact that others can get the job done using the other tools I mentioned.  If you don't understand how to use the tool, that is your shortcoming and your lack of education, and not anybody else's problem.

Now I have educated you on kata.  From here on, you know better and you have no excuse to make statements based on ignorance, because you  are no longer ignorant.  If you do continue to make such statements, then you are a liar.  I suggest you simply do not discuss kata at all.  It is way way over your head.


----------



## frank raud (Feb 29, 2020)

Rat said:


> I fail to see the point?    It is examples of arts that have erased it in comaprision with some that have kept it showing you can erase it without effecting the fighting ability of the persons in it.     As far as i got, all western martial arts dont have kata in it, or its a argument if it is or isnt.   (one which we arent having here).     Western for sake of argument is political/cultural, so western european.    I dont have a encyclopedic knowledge of everyone that existed though.


How can they have erased it if they didn't do it in the first place?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 29, 2020)

Rat said:


> all western martial arts dont have kata in it, ...


Without learning from a MA form, do you think an average person can figure out the side kick, spin back fist combo all by himself?


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## drop bear (Feb 29, 2020)

Rat said:


> Cant quote the post specfically. But, to keep it breif as i am not having a argument about kata here. (anyone can start a thead on its pros and cons for the umpteeth time if they so wish)



Just so you know.(And it took me a while to figure out) it isn't really Kata that is the pointless exercise. It is bunkai where it all falls apart.

And the reason for this is the thought process is backwards. 

So in theory you would think if something works if fighting then you refine it by turning it in to a drill. Or elements of it in to a drill.

Boxing becomes shadow boxing. Shadow boxing beccomes skipping. 

Where bunkai goes the other way. Where it essentially tries to turn skipping in to some sort of fighting move.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 29, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Boxing becomes shadow boxing. Shadow boxing beccomes skipping.
> 
> Where bunkai goes the other way. Where it essentially tries to turn skipping in to some sort of fighting move.


The logical approach should be:

First there is a partner drill. When partner is not available, it turns into solo drill.

Partner drill:






Solo drill:


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## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The logical approach should be:
> 
> First there is a partner drill. When partner is not available, it turns into solo drill.
> 
> ...



That is one path, but not the only path.


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 29, 2020)

To get back to the reason for kata is to understand what it really is, and thus render many of the above posts irrelevant.

Karate was taught in secret 125-250 years ago, to hand picked students directly from the master.  Thus, very little was written down regarding the techniques (and much of that was mostly lost during WWII).  There were no open membership gyms, no "how to" books, no film or you tube.  How, then, was the knowledge transmitted during this time to students to remember and practice?  Kata was created. 

Combat techniques, strikes, locks, throws, pressure point attacks, tactics...were incorporated into memorized series called kata, which served as volumes of instruction.  They allowed a student to "self train" when away from his teacher.  A style's whole repertoire of katas served as the "encyclopedia" of that style and could be passed on to the next generation.

Other fighting arts did not share this history, so had no need to create kata.  They were "open source."

Just as a book doesn't really teach how to fight well, a kata doesn't either.  It is basically a "book" of techniques.  Teachers, sparring and practice are required to learn how to fight.  Kata, though, can be a valuable source of fighting concepts and technique.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 1, 2020)

Anyway, brining this back.


I have a statement on the media you can access.          If the media is made for a complete begginer to learn from as opposed to a refrence book to go along with formal study (i belive more of the latter exist) it can be useful to learn  from.      The only thing you would have to do is apply to a person to work out if you are doing it correctly or not.        Nothing excludes the ability to contact the maker and ask for opinions on how you are doing it or sending them a video of it as well.    As martial arts is a skill that you need to actually do to learn effectively, you cant soley pick it up by just reading or watching videos.      DO NOT, take that as "you cant learn from a book", you can learn from a book, you just need to apply what you have read.     (book is denoting all media or any combination of.)


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

Rat said:


> you can learn from a book, you just need to apply what you have read. (book is denoting all media or any combination of.)




That's good to know, I'm off to buy medical books always fancied being a surgeon and now I can learn to be one from books and videos alone. Yay.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> That's good to know, I'm off to buy medical books always fancied being a surgeon and now I can learn to be one from books and videos alone. Yay.



If you see the preface about skill variety and variety in the learning curve...      Also for the sake of the point, there is a printed manual on first aid, which is both meant as a guide to people who dont know how to do anything and second as a refrence for people with certificates.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

Rat said:


> Anyway, brining this back.
> 
> 
> I have a statement on the media you can access.          If the media is made for a complete begginer to learn from as opposed to a refrence book to go along with formal study (i belive more of the latter exist) it can be useful to learn  from.      The only thing you would have to do is apply to a person to work out if you are doing it correctly or not.        Nothing excludes the ability to contact the maker and ask for opinions on how you are doing it or sending them a video of it as well.    As martial arts is a skill that you need to actually do to learn effectively, you cant soley pick it up by just reading or watching videos.      DO NOT, take that as "you cant learn from a book", you can learn from a book, you just need to apply what you have read.     (book is denoting all media or any combination of.)



You're still not getting feedback on your technique, and you have no way of verifying if the other person is competent enough to be a reliable test of effectiveness.

Honestly, I have no idea how you still hold onto this notion.  You do a lot of reading on martial arts.  Have you not read articles about how live sparring is required to get your effectiveness up?  Have you not read of the concept "iron sharpens iron"?


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## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The logical approach should be:
> 
> First there is a partner drill. When partner is not available, it turns into solo drill.
> 
> ...


Agree. However a person must do both perfect the drill. 
From my experience, most people learn the individual components of a drill like the one in the video sans partner. 
Then chain them together. 
Then learn them with a live partner. 
Then do them with resistance.


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## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> To get back to the reason for kata is to understand what it really is, and thus render many of the above posts irrelevant.
> 
> Karate was taught in secret 125-250 years ago, to hand picked students directly from the master.  Thus, very little was written down regarding the techniques (and much of that was mostly lost during WWII).  There were no open membership gyms, no "how to" books, no film or you tube.  How, then, was the knowledge transmitted during this time to students to remember and practice?  Kata was created.
> 
> ...


Very well said.


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

Rat said:


> Also for the sake of the point, there is a printed manual on first aid, which is both meant as a guide to people who dont know how to do anything and second as a refrence for people with certificates.



First aid isn't surgery though. First aid should be simple, it's not surgery. We have defibrillators on the walls of our village halls here which talk you through the use of them, designed to be simple to use, it doesn't need training. Surgery and martial arts do.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

Rat said:


> Also for the sake of the point, there is a printed manual on first aid, which is both meant as a guide to people who dont know how to do anything and second as a refrence for people with certificates.



The level of first aid you can effectively learn from a manual is going to be the scrapes and boo-boos kind of first aid.  You're not going to learn how to do life-saving measures without instruction.  If someone is in a life-threatening situation, your first step should be to call 911 (or the equivalent in your country) and they will walk you through the proper diagnosis and immediate first-aid steps to do *until qualified medical help arrives.* 

If we're going to compare martial arts to first aid, then what you're talking about is the equivalent of knowing how to use band-aids on an open wound and using ice to reduce swelling.  You're not going to properly know how to set a broken bone, check for ligament damage, or assess a person who is experiencing an immediate medical emergency like choking, heart attack, stroke, or a large gushing wound.  You might be able to recognize some signs and symptoms and know to call 911, but that's about it.

In fact, one of the biggest problems in the healthcare industry right now is all of the self-diagnosis and self-treatment we have going on via the internet.  Things like the anti-vax movement, people who will refuse medicine because they read on facebook that an herbal supplement will be better for you, or people who self-diagnose on Web-MD and make the doctor's job that much more difficult.

If you want to have a decent amount of ability in treating someone when they need help, there are first aid classes and CPR classes that will actually teach you how to recognize and treat various symptoms.  These classes are important, because instead of just reading in a book and guessing that you understand it, they have tools that can teach you if you're doing it correctly.

Furthermore, if you want to actually be competent, it takes years of class and internships just to be qualified as a nurse.  It takes probably 12-15 years of class, internship, residency, and fellowship to become a licensed physician.

So ask yourself.  Do you want to be the kind of martial artist who knows how to do band-aids?  You can get that from a manual.  If you want to be able to do anything else, you need to *go to class*.



Tez3 said:


> We have defibrillators on the walls of our village halls here which talk you through the use of them, designed to be simple to use, it doesn't need training. Surgery and martial arts do.



I would think you should have enough training to know whether or not it's right to send electric shocks through someone.


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## Headhunter (Mar 1, 2020)

I think everything that needs to be said has been said. Let's just leave the op to his articles and YouTube videos and let him think he's doing martial arts. He's not going to listen to anyone


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> I would think you should have enough training to know whether or not it's right to send electric shocks through someone.



You don't need training for public access defibrillators which is why we have them. 
*"Who can use a defibrillator?*
_You don’t need to be trained to use a defibrillator – anyone can use it. There are clear instructions on how to attach the defibrillator pads. It then assesses the heart rhythm and will only instruct you to deliver a shock if it’s needed. You cannot deliver a shock accidentally, the defibrillator will only allow you to shock if it is needed."
_
Defibrillators
_
_


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You don't need training for public access defibrillators which is why we have them.
> *"Who can use a defibrillator?*
> _You don’t need to be trained to use a defibrillator – anyone can use it. There are clear instructions on how to attach the defibrillator pads. It then assesses the heart rhythm and will only instruct you to deliver a shock if it’s needed. You cannot deliver a shock accidentally, the defibrillator will only allow you to shock if it is needed."
> _
> Defibrillators


Agreed. I've been through AED training (volunteer work with the local police), and largely it's a restatement of the instructions in the AED container and a walk-through of the AED's verbal instructions.


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I've been through AED training (volunteer work with the local police), and largely it's a restatement of the instructions in the AED container and a walk-through of the AED's verbal instructions.




We've got a lot through the UK, in villages like ours, workplaces and public buildings. They don't always save lives but they are saving more lives every year. Well worth having.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> You don't need training for public access defibrillators which is why we have them.
> *"Who can use a defibrillator?*
> _You don’t need to be trained to use a defibrillator – anyone can use it. There are clear instructions on how to attach the defibrillator pads. It then assesses the heart rhythm and will only instruct you to deliver a shock if it’s needed. You cannot deliver a shock accidentally, the defibrillator will only allow you to shock if it is needed."
> _
> Defibrillators



In that case, you're still getting instruction during the use of the device.  It's not like martial arts, where someone could say "he's going for a takedown, sprawl" while you're all alone in the middle of getting jumped.


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## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2020)

I am really struggling to see you point on this. If/when I get hurt I will take whatever help I can get. Basic first aid really is not complicated. The way you grew up in my family it was more the norm.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am really struggling to see you point on this. If/when I get hurt I will take whatever help I can get. Basic first aid really is not complicated. The way you grew up in my family it was more the norm.



My point is relating to the OP.  If we're looking at the ability to provide medical help, "basic first aid" is the bottom floor of capability.  If you're looking to train martial arts, and you want to be the equivalent of providing basic first aid to be your ceiling, you're not much of a martial artist.


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## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2020)

I cannot follow that logic. If basic first aid is enough to get someone stable until the paramedics get there (the standard in the U.S.) that is enough. I don’t expect my instructor to be able to perform surgery.


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## Tez3 (Mar 1, 2020)

skribs said:


> In that case, you're still getting instruction during the use of the device.  It's not like martial arts, where someone could say "he's going for a takedown, sprawl" while you're all alone in the middle of getting jumped.





skribs said:


> My point is relating to the OP. If we're looking at the ability to provide medical help, "basic first aid" is the bottom floor of capability. If you're looking to train martial arts, and you want to be the equivalent of providing basic first aid to be your ceiling, you're not much of a martial artist.




I think you've missed the point, I said you can learn basic first aid by reading a book but you could not become a surgeon without lengthy instruction. 

I only elaborated on the defib thing because of this comment you made, it's not actually pertinent beyond the original point I made.


skribs said:


> I would think you should have enough training to know whether or not it's right to send electric shocks through someone.


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## drop bear (Mar 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot follow that logic. If basic first aid is enough to get someone stable until the paramedics get there (the standard in the U.S.) that is enough. I don’t expect my instructor to be able to perform surgery.



It is different when it applies to you. So if say for example for self defense you would need a functional system grounded in application taught by an instructor who has a real depth of experience on the subject. Then so long as you are having fun that is the import part.

If you don't feel the need for instruction at all then it is doing a disservice to the whole validity of martial arts.

So same with first aid or defibrillator training. The results matter to the point of our personal standard.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I think you've missed the point, I said you can learn basic first aid by reading a book but you could not become a surgeon without lengthy instruction.
> 
> I only elaborated on the defib thing because of this comment you made, it's not actually pertinent beyond the original point I made.



But the person isn't trained enough to know.  They just follow the advice on the device.  If there's a device that will tell me when I'm supposed to use my techniques in the middle of a fight, I'd love to know about it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot follow that logic. If basic first aid is enough to get someone stable until the paramedics get there (the standard in the U.S.) that is enough. I don’t expect my instructor to be able to perform surgery.


It's an analogy. He's not suggesting people need more than basic first-aid.


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## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It's an analogy. He's not suggesting people need more than basic first-aid.


I guess I read it differently. It seemed it was more like sniping at Tez.


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## skribs (Mar 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I guess I read it differently. It seemed it was more like sniping at Tez.



No, she kinda got caught in the crossfire this time.  I was more sniping at the idea that martial arts could be learned from a manual.


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## drop bear (Mar 1, 2020)

Ok. But given you tube is such a better medium for instruction than a manual and the internet can provide feedback.

It would be an interesting experiment to try.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I've been through AED training (volunteer work with the local police), and largely it's a restatement of the instructions in the AED container and a walk-through of the AED's verbal instructions.


What I find interesting is how many AED's there are, and the variations between them. It's mostly a result of a continuum between: how much do the people using this need to be walked through, and how quickly can I go through the instructions? Some of them walk you through every single step, even ones you don't know you needed, while others give you the bare minimum so you can slap the suckers on and start zapping.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Some of them walk you through every single step, even ones you don't know you needed,




That's the only type used in the UK, it takes you through every step and doesn't allow shocking by accident. They come from the British Heart foundation, you have to make a £600 donation and provide the cabinet for it. We have ours because we are in a rural area and the money was raised in memory of a local lady.
Apply for a public access defibrillator


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> First aid isn't surgery though. First aid should be simple, it's not surgery. We have defibrillators on the walls of our village halls here which talk you through the use of them, designed to be simple to use, it doesn't need training. Surgery and martial arts do.



Never stated it was.   The point was, i wasnt citing skills that require the same amount of time and training etc as surgery, so comparing it to first aid would be more apt.               If we are going to ubequtiously put all martial askills under having the same learning curve then removing dry skin with a knife is the same as brain surgery.    To continue the medical analogy.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> ubequtiously




?



Rat said:


> removing dry skin with a knife is the same as brain surgery.




who does that?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

AED's have been added ubeqiously to first aid training as far as i can see.   In addition pop up stands for first aid and the like also go through how to use them.   If its a longer course and covers defibs, i belive good companies would teach you both AED and manual, if its not a bespoke course anyway where you only use AED's or vice versa.         Personally speaking i would seek out courses  that cover both.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> who does that?



Not surgeons.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> Not surgeons.




Only disgusting people would cut dry skin with a knife. ugh. 



Rat said:


> AED's have been added ubeqiously to first aid training as far as i can see. In addition pop up stands for first aid and the like also go through how to use them. If its a longer course and covers defibs, i belive good companies would teach you both AED and manual, if its not a bespoke course anyway where you only use AED's or vice versa. Personally speaking i would seek out courses that cover both.



What on earth is a 'pop up stand for first aid'? 

You've totally missed all the points here. The defibs in the UK that are for public access don't need courses to use them, activate them ( you are given the code to access them when you phone 999) and they talk you through every bit of the way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. But given you tube is such a better medium for instruction than a manual and the internet can provide feedback.
> 
> It would be an interesting experiment to try.


It would, though I don't think I'd look to "the internet" in general for feedback. Folks with no technical experience would chime in, making it hard to find which folks to pay attention to. I've seen some instructors who tried distance training using videos in both directions, so some feedback from someone who ought to have the requisite technical knowledge. I never had a chance to play with any of thos students to see what the result was like.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> What I find interesting is how many AED's there are, and the variations between them. It's mostly a result of a continuum between: how much do the people using this need to be walked through, and how quickly can I go through the instructions? Some of them walk you through every single step, even ones you don't know you needed, while others give you the bare minimum so you can slap the suckers on and start zapping.


Yeah, and that was the point of the training we received, I think. I doubt all of the ones used in county buildings (which is what they were training us for) are the same, and they used a model that just gave the barest instructions. If you can use those properly, the others just give extra information.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> Never stated it was.   The point was, i wasnt citing skills that require the same amount of time and training etc as surgery, so comparing it to first aid would be more apt.               If we are going to ubequtiously put all martial askills under having the same learning curve then removing dry skin with a knife is the same as brain surgery.    To continue the medical analogy.


I think a more apt analogy might be some other sport - there's too much difference between simple knowledge that requires minimal skill development (first aid), deep knowledge that requires extreme skill development to be used at all (brain surgery), and physical skills that can be learned and developed at a useful level with minimal knowledge though knowledge may help (basic martial arts).

So, let's look at training for basketball. You can learn to dribble and shoot entirely on your own. You could also learn the rules on your own. If you have a partner, you could even learn to shoot against a defender and maintain control from them when dribbling. However, you're only going to progress to a very basic level in most cases. If they have a deep flaw in their game, it will likely lead to a deep gap in your game in the respective area (if they are really bad at defending against a layup, you may develop a layup that any competent player can defend). And with just one person there, there're a lot of flaws you can get away with that just won't matter. Bring in a moderately good opponent, and you'd be in trouble. A coach joining your sessions would immediately be able to improve on your game.

And that's without even mentioning the inceased risk of injury in training martial arts improperly. For that, American football is probably a better analogy. In fact, I wish I'd started with that one.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I think a more apt analogy might be some other sport - there's too much difference between simple knowledge that requires minimal skill development (first aid), deep knowledge that requires extreme skill development to be used at all (brain surgery), and physical skills that can be learned and developed at a useful level with minimal knowledge though knowledge may help (basic martial arts).
> 
> So, let's look at training for basketball. You can learn to dribble and shoot entirely on your own. You could also learn the rules on your own. If you have a partner, you could even learn to shoot against a defender and maintain control from them when dribbling. However, you're only going to progress to a very basic level in most cases. If they have a deep flaw in their game, it will likely lead to a deep gap in your game in the respective area (if they are really bad at defending against a layup, you may develop a layup that any competent player can defend). And with just one person there, there're a lot of flaws you can get away with that just won't matter. Bring in a moderately good opponent, and you'd be in trouble. A coach joining your sessions would immediately be able to improve on your game.
> 
> And that's without even mentioning the inceased risk of injury in training martial arts improperly. For that, American football is probably a better analogy. In fact, I wish I'd started with that one.



I would agree, best to keep within the area and not branch out too much.   As for medicine there is also a liability and regulatory aspect to cover as well.


My counter for that would be, what if you grabbed enough people to be a team and practiced like that and had no intention to go proffesional, would the skills you devolope  be suffcient for just friendly games either with your freinds or other people?       Given those people probbly only did it the same way as you.   No illusion somone who does basketball as their main source of income and job would be better at it than somone who just now and then "shoots hoops".  Not discounting the proffesional players are universally tall and probbly would dwarf you. 

Recalling back to how i learnt basketball in school, the teacher introduces rules when relivent (ie can only dribble while moving for a limited time when they introcue you to the dribble, tell you its non contact or what have you when you start doing games so fourth)  and only showed you how it was done once.   I dont know if they would have corrected you if you did it wrong or not though.   thats how every sport was done.     This is for children, and this goes from primary to secondary school. 


As for injury, you can get injured doing anything, you can only mitgate it in some ways and in general common sense would prevail for that one.    You could for all intents and purposes designated somone as a safety officer to basially live and breathe that.      Like if we do bring up american football, there isnt much you can do to mitgate those injuries, same with rugby.   (both get compartively high injury rates and serious injury rates compared to other sports)      Those  are probbly inherent in the sport and its rules.  (hell at least in american football you get armour)

Addendum:  As for injury as well, i would honesty prefer it if somone had a first aid certfiicate, everyone should have one of those anyway.  Even if its just CPR and the recovery position.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> Never stated it was.   The point was, i wasnt citing skills that require the same amount of time and training etc as surgery, so comparing it to first aid would be more apt.               If we are going to ubequtiously put all martial askills under having the same learning curve then removing dry skin with a knife is the same as brain surgery.    To continue the medical analogy.



Martial arts do have a long learning curve, though.  Anyone who's spent more than 3 months in a class would know this.



gpseymour said:


> It would, though I don't think I'd look to "the internet" in general for feedback. Folks with no technical experience would chime in, making it hard to find which folks to pay attention to. I've seen some instructors who tried distance training using videos in both directions, so some feedback from someone who ought to have the requisite technical knowledge. I never had a chance to play with any of thos students to see what the result was like.



For striking arts, you can work on technique and footwork.  It would be hard to simulate sparring, but if you have a sparring partner the remote instructor could critique you.  However, this would basically be a private lesson or semi-private lesson, and you're relying on an instructor to teach you (which is what the thread seems to be trying to avoid).  I think it would be nearly impossible to learn grappling this way.  Without feeling it done properly on you, it can be hard to understand some of the nuances in grappling.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> As for medicine there is also a liability and regulatory aspect to cover as well.



There is in martial arts and particularly self defence.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> who does that?


Yeah, seriously.  When I get dry skin peeling off my feet from running around bare foot all the time, I just rip it off with my fingers.

What kind of pathetic SOB uses a knife for that?


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, seriously.  When I get dry skin peeling off my feet from running around bare foot all the time, I just rip it off with my fingers.
> 
> What kind of pathetic SOB uses a knife for that?



If I have a hangnail and I rip it off, 50% of the time it bleeds and I make it much worse.  Or I can cut it with nail clippers and don't have to worry about that.  Same thing when I'm building calluses.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> If I have a hangnail and I rip it off, 50% of the time it bleeds and I make it much worse.  Or I can cut it with nail clippers and don't have to worry about that.  Same thing when I'm building calluses.


Oh sure.  A hang nail is a different animal altogether.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, seriously.  When I get dry skin peeling off my feet from running around bare foot all the time, I just rip it off with my fingers.
> 
> What kind of pathetic SOB uses a knife for that?



Dry skin, as in a bunon or callious etc.   Skin you cant remove with just picking.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> Dry skin, as in a bunon or callious etc. Skin you cant remove with just picking




Three very different things there. 
Bunions are a deformity which will get worse unless treated.

Callus and corns can be self treated, unless you are diabetic then you need someone to sort them for you. Cutting calluses makes them worse actually, they are there for a reason and if you cut them the body will just thicken the skin even more.

Dry skin can be treated with moisturisers.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> I would agree, best to keep within the area and not branch out too much.   As for medicine there is also a liability and regulatory aspect to cover as well.
> 
> 
> My counter for that would be, what if you grabbed enough people to be a team and practiced like that and had no intention to go proffesional, would the skills you devolope  be suffcient for just friendly games either with your freinds or other people?       Given those people probbly only did it the same way as you.   No illusion somone who does basketball as their main source of income and job would be better at it than somone who just now and then "shoots hoops".  Not discounting the proffesional players are universally tall and probbly would dwarf you.
> ...


What you develop in that scenario depends almost entirely upon what the people in the room know. They are all learning at the same time, so there’s nothing to prevent bad habits from developing. Likely playing against another casual group with just one good player (someone with better information and training), would show the whole group to be weak at significant areas. Why? Because that one player isn’t having to learn all parts of the game from scratch, and can bring some of that information to their team. Add a decent amateur coach to that team, and they likely overwhelm the self-trained group, entirely.

Essentially, the group that is self-trained is having to discover a bunch of things on their own, even if they are using videos and such. Those carry bits of information, but can't replace the knowledge of an experienced coach. So, if those folks just want to be able to play against each other, they'll have plenty of fun at it, and will do okay. Anything beyond that, they're likely to be badly outmatched by people with equal effort put in, backed by an experienced coach.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> My counter for that would be, what if you grabbed enough people to be a team and practiced like that and had no intention to go proffesional, would the skills you devolope be suffcient for just friendly games either with your freinds or other people?



If you learn martial arts on your own, that's all your martial arts will be good for.  Is playing games with your friends.  It's not going to win you competitions or protect you much in the streets.



Rat said:


> Recalling back to how i learnt basketball in school, the teacher introduces rules when relivent (ie can only dribble while moving for a limited time when they introcue you to the dribble, tell you its non contact or what have you when you start doing games so fourth) and only showed you how it was done once. I dont know if they would have corrected you if you did it wrong or not though. thats how every sport was done. This is for children, and this goes from primary to secondary school.



Was this for gym class or for the actual sport itself?  If it's just for gym class, my experience is PE teachers basically do enough that you can get on the court and play.  If it's for the school's basketball team, then you had a bad coach.  (This is of course assuming you didn't take 3 practices and quit).

A martial arts school is going to show you how to do things several times over.  For the most part, we demonstrate everything before we expect the students to do it.  I will demonstrate the front kick before I have the students kick in every class, so that they can follow my example.  I remind them the important parts of the kick so they can pay attention to them.  We don't actively correct students every class (because that can make students feel like they're not good enough) but we do give them advice on how to improve it.

You had a bad experience taking lessons in basketball.  That doesn't mean everyone is going to be like that.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> What you develop in that scenario depends almost entirely upon what the people in the room know. They are all learning at the same time, so there’s nothing to prevent bad habits from developing. Likely playing against another casual group with just one good player (someone with better information and training), would show the whole group to be weak at significant areas. Why? Because that one player isn’t having to learn all parts of the game from scratch, and can bring some of that information to their team. Add a decent amateur coach to that team, and they likely overwhelm the self-trained group, entirely.
> 
> Essentially, the group that is self-trained is having to discover a bunch of things on their own, even if they are using videos and such. Those carry bits of information, but can't replace the knowledge of an experienced coach. So, if those folks just want to be able to play against each other, they'll have plenty of fun at it, and will do okay. Anything beyond that, they're likely to be badly outmatched by people with equal effort put in, backed by an experienced coach.




In hindsight, we probbly should not have used team sport anologies for this.         But, for the last point, their skill level doesnt realy matter.  if they arent trying to do it proffesionally its of no consiquence.    If they want to compete proffesionally well, if they decided since school all the coaching etc would be provided especially if they get scooped up by a team earlier on.If not they would seek out such instruction.   The base of information for a sport would be on average higher than not as people would literally practice doing said sport every day until they retire or decide to switch careers.     Thats the issue with a sport analysis of this.


Now to apply this to self defence where (for sake of argument) the average amount of information would be lower?   Would coming in with a base of information and some practice, even if it only builds your atributes be suffcient?    More than likely.       It would be the comparision of something over nothing.  

Bad habits also seems subjective and based on your goals.  A boxing coach can only relay what is bad for the sport of boxing, so fourth.  


I dont deny its more individalistic, but thats not good or bad.  Its based soley on the individuals abilities.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> Now to apply this to self defence where (for sake of argument) the average amount of information would be lower? Would coming in with a base of information and some practice, even if it only builds your atributes be suffcient? More than likely. It would be the comparision of something over nothing.



If your goal is to learn self-defense, and what you're learning isn't effective, then you're not going to learn self defense and are wasting your time.  If your techniques aren't done right, then you're not going to be able to effectively use them in a fight.  And you need more than a heavy bag to know when they're right or not.



> Bad habits also seems subjective and based on your goals. A boxing coach can only relay what is bad for the sport of boxing, so fourth.



On the one hand, there are some universal truths to martial arts.  There are also truths that apply within a given ruleset.  A boxing coach might not know how to deal with kicks and grabs, but they do know how to punch.  Their lessons on how to punch and how to protect your head don't get less true when you go into kickboxing or MMA.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> Dry skin, as in a bunon or callious etc.   Skin you cant remove with just picking.


Ain’t no such thing.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> There is in martial arts and particularly self defence.


Does your country have a regulatory agency who evaluates the standards/material of someone teaching MA and SD?


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## frank raud (Mar 2, 2020)

@Rat ,

You haven't answered this question



frank raud said:


> How exactly, has sport judo erased kata?


Or this one, in regards to boxing and wrestling



frank raud said:


> How can they have erased it if they didn't do it in the first place?


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Only disgusting people would cut dry skin with a knife. ugh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


C'mon; you have never popped a blister and snipped the skin off later? 

I have never heard of a 'pop up' stand for first aid either. Maybe he/she means triage?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Does your country have a regulatory agency who evaluates the standards/material of someone teaching MA and SD?



If you mean governemnt regulation, beyond the (recognised)sports, pretty much no.      Especially not for self defence systems.    But most schools tend to assoiate with a federation.    A good rule of thumb would be, if its taught in schools as part of PE or a BTEC sport qual, it probbly has at some govenrment regulation in it as for what content is covered and should be covered or at least the govenrment has put some influence on it.

Im trying to think of  a page to find the list of all the regulatory commisions the U.K govenrment recognises but im at a loss for where to find it.   Oh thats probbly a better way to word it, the U.K doesnt recognise many federations for many sports and MA.  (and in some cases only one is recognised and there could be several competitors to it)





dvcochran said:


> I have never heard of a 'pop up' stand for first aid either. Maybe he/she means triage?



And i meant a stand st johns or something like that sets up at events to teach people CPR/AED usage and other first aid things/advertise.      A pop up stand meaning its not permently there and only for said event.


Addendum:  Something like this list here: Olympic Sports | UK Sport    Best i could come up with on short notice and with edit time running out.  I dont recall that being the page i found ages ago on it, but it could have been revamped.  That is at least a list of all the olympic sports recognised and the bodies that regulate them respectively for the U.K.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> C'mon; you have never popped a blister and snipped the skin off later?
> 
> I have never heard of a 'pop up' stand for first aid either. Maybe he/she means triage?




A blister isn't dry skin though, quite the opposite. I've not taken the skin off later because the way I was taught to deal with blisters it doesn't need to come off.



Rat said:


> And i meant a stand st johns or something like that sets up at events to teach people CPR/AED usage and other first aid things/advertise. A pop up stand meaning its not permently there and only for said event.



Nope never seen one, St John's often are the first aid providers at sporting and other events etc but don't teach it outside courses.



Rat said:


> Oh thats probbly a better way to word it, the U.K doesnt recognise many federations for many sports and MA. (and in some cases only one is recognised and there could be several competitors to it)



A lot of sports federations are recognised in the UK, the Rugby Union, the FA, FIFA and UEFA, ECB, BBBC, as well as a lot of other ones.

Regulation comes into self defence because you should to know the law in the UK on what is self defence before you teach it.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> A blister isn't dry skin though, quite the opposite. I've not taken the skin off later because the way I was taught to deal with blisters it doesn't need to come off.



I did not believe it until I tried it but if you wait until the sun goes down to burst a blood blister it will not hurt.

It depends on the size of the blister as to whether I take the skin off or not. Small ones I do not worry about but bigger ones seem to heal quicker. Likely because you can get some ointment on it.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 2, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Nope never seen one, St John's often are the first aid providers at sporting and other events etc but don't teach it outside courses.



Specfially dont know if it was saint johns, but i have seen a pop up stand for teaching CPR and AED's.   I can only presume they have gone elsewhere and its not restricted to being a one time thing for what ever orgnsation did it.




Tez3 said:


> Regulation comes into self defence because you should to know the law in the UK on what is self defence before you teach it.



That would be dubious, as you are fundementally responsible for yourself and all action you take.    Unless the group is dubious for being a criminal orginisation or unlawful, then maybe they would be libale to some degree, but you will be 2 fold as you decided to affilate with said group that you have no freedom to affiliate with.                             And also, literally everyone or next to everyone puts self defence as one of the reasons/taught skills for their school.   Be it a combat sport or a TMA or krav maga,, and legal lessons for what is and is not self defence seem to be scarce in them.

this is in the same way a publisher wouldnt be responsible if you choked somone to death following a choke in a book.

And there are many sports that arent recognised in the U.K, the statement is not entirely wrong or right, its more down to what sport in question.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> That would be dubious, as you are fundementally responsible for yourself and all action you take. Unless the group is dubious for being a criminal orginisation or unlawful, then maybe they would be libale to some degree, but you will be 2 fold as you decided to affilate with said group that you have no freedom to affiliate with.



Is this an ideal or a codified law?



> And also, literally everyone or next to everyone puts self defence as one of the reasons/taught skills for their school. Be it a combat sport or a TMA or krav maga,, and legal lessons for what is and is not self defence seem to be scarce in them.



No.  A lot of schools are purely for sport, and will tell you that up front.



Rat said:


> this is in the same way a publisher wouldnt be responsible if you choked somone to death following a choke in a book.



Are you 100% sure about this?  Because there's a reason why "don't try this at home" or "don't try this without the supervision of a professional instructor" gets put into a lot of videos and books.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> And also, literally everyone or next to everyone puts self defence as one of the reasons/taught skills for their school.   Be it a combat sport or a TMA or krav maga,, and legal lessons for what is and is not self defence seem to be scarce in them.


Every school that I've been to that has self-defense as a focus does go over what is/isn't legal for self defense in my state. Most are not too concerned with it, since the main goal is defending yourself, not the what comes after, but it's gone over and reminded occasionally. 

The schools that I've trained in that don't advertise self-defense don't really go over the legal stuff unless someone brings it up, but I wouldn't expect them to.


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## Tez3 (Mar 2, 2020)

Rat said:


> That would be dubious, as you are fundementally responsible for yourself and all action you take.




What would be dubious? I said you should know the law on self defence in this country before teaching self defence, I said nothing about joining any group or teaching the law, just knowing it so you don't go off telling people they can kick an unconscious person in the head.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Every school that I've been to that has self-defense as a focus does go over what is/isn't legal for self defense in my state. Most are not too concerned with it, since the main goal is defending yourself, not the what comes after, but it's gone over and reminded occasionally.
> 
> The schools that I've trained in that don't advertise self-defense don't really go over the legal stuff unless someone brings it up, but I wouldn't expect them to.


That sounds like a slippery verbal slope. I would have to get a sign up form out and read it but we have a legal blurb in the release consent section that is supposed to indemnify. It has proven to be pretty solid. 
I would never try to come off trying to sound like a legal professional to a potential/current student. I am certain I would just screw it up.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That sounds like a slippery verbal slope. I would have to get a sign up form out and read it but we have a legal blurb in the release consent section that is supposed to indemnify. It has proven to be pretty solid.
> I would never try to come off trying to sound like a legal professional to a potential/current student. I am certain I would just screw it up.


It's never official legal things, in the sense that people are told how to interpret the law, or give actual advice. It's basic things like how different states have different laws, how to find the laws for new york, and like Tez said, if a dude's unconscious you probably don't need to soccer kick his head.


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## dvcochran (Mar 2, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> It's never official legal things, in the sense that people are told how to interpret the law, or give actual advice. It's basic things like how different states have different laws, how to find the laws for new york, and like Tez said, if a dude's unconscious you probably don't need to soccer kick his head.


Down here we just call that good old common sense.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Down here we just call that good old common sense.


I would hope that it is. But I've heard people argue "If someone's attacking me, I'm not stopping till I know it's finished", "I'll kill anyone trying to kill me", "You have to beat the attacker/bully up so badly that he's scared even be near you in the future."


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I would hope that it is. But I've heard people argue "If someone's attacking me, I'm not stopping till I know it's finished", "I'll kill anyone trying to kill me", "You have to beat the attacker/bully up so badly that he's scared even be near you in the future."




I've heard that as well, it's really best that the instructor doesn't tell people that or worst write it somewhere like social media because if one of their students does go too far and it all goes pear shaped, they'll say 'well my instructor told me it was what you do', and then the instructor is up for incitement etc.


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## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> I would hope that it is. But I've heard people argue "If someone's attacking me, I'm not stopping till I know it's finished", "I'll kill anyone trying to kill me", "You have to beat the attacker/bully up so badly that he's scared even be near you in the future."



There is a 'value' in that kind of thinking but it requires the whole story to be known. 
For example, if it is the repeated bully scenario, it may take a 'beating' the bullying to end. 
If it is a dangerously physical attack where the person knows the attacker is going to keep coming, it could spiral into a 'final' event. 

From a SD mentality this is a valid but 'last ditch effort' approach. If an untrained person somehow gets the upper hand they should take advantage of it. Such as grabbing a skillet and whacking the assailant. More often than not this is going to take multiple blows. It is never like we see it on the television where one tap and the guy goes down.

Fear can be either a powerful ally or enemy. If it becomes a scenario where only one person is going to walk away, the decision has already been made.

If I am missing your point, please explain.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> What would be dubious? I said you should know the law on self defence in this country before teaching self defence, I said nothing about joining any group or teaching the law, just knowing it so you don't go off telling people they can kick an unconscious person in the head.



You should, but should doesnt translate to legally required to do so.    The stated liability would be dubious for the reasons i presented previously also.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> AED's have been added ubeqiously to first aid training as far as i can see.



When you butcher words, you don't make yourself look good. Stick to words you understand. Seriously.



> If its a longer course and covers defibs,



An AED and a defibrillator are _*not*_ the same thing.



> i belive good companies would teach you both AED and manual, if its not a bespoke course anyway where you only use AED's or vice versa.



Yet another case in which you talk out your rectum without having the slightest idea what you're saying. People like you, who are too ignorant to even understand just how ignorant they are, terrify me. If one of my loved ones is in the midst of a cardiac arrest, please stay the hell away from them. They will stand a much better chance of survival if they're assisted by someone who at least knows that they're a layman.
It doesn't matter what you "belive [sic]". You cannot learn to read a strip and properly use a defibrillator in a few hours.



> Personally speaking i would seek out courses  that cover both.



Might as well just stick your finger in a light socket.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> C'mon; you have never popped a blister and snipped the skin off later?



Please don't do this. If a blister pops on its own, feel free to remove the dead tissue. But don't pop it. The blister protects the underlying tissues.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> An AED and a defibrillator are _*not*_ the same thing.



Well having done a lookskie to confirm this*.   I never stated that, and a AED is a defibulator.
*What the acronym AED means.


Dirty Dog said:


> Yet another case in which you talk out your rectum without having the slightest idea what you're saying. People like you, who are too ignorant to even understand just how ignorant they are, terrify me. If one of my loved ones is in the midst of a cardiac arrest, please stay the hell away from them. They will stand a much better chance of survival if they're assisted by someone who at least knows that they're a layman.
> It doesn't matter what you "belive [sic]". You cannot learn to read a strip and properly use a defibrillator in a few hours.



Well, firstly.  I wouldnt help you so i couldnt be damned nor is it any skin off my back.

Secondly, please  quote WHERE EXACTLY i stated you could or could not learn to use a defibulator in a few hours?             The statement was, as quoted.     I made no statement in the quoted message to training time for them.    And i have indeed seen a course cover both AED's and manual ones, or just others.         Tez has gone over how AED's in my country are of the type to walk you through it and as they seem to be included in low level first aid courses they clearly arent the most complicated of things.  (shortest courses avalible)



Dirty Dog said:


> Might as well just stick your finger in a light socket.



How else do you propose one installs them?


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## Cynik75 (Mar 3, 2020)

Q: How to train martial arts alone?
A: Pop you blisters.


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## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yet another case in which you talk out your rectum without having the slightest idea what you're saying. People like you, who are too ignorant to even understand just how ignorant they are, terrify me.



This is what terrifies me.  He loves to give advice to people, and a lot of that advice is horribly wrong and would get them hurt.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

Cynik75 said:


> Q: How to train martial arts alone?



I didnt propose you did/have to.   I think you need at least a partner if your intrest is anything to do with fighting.     You can do kata or what have you alone or without a tradtional school.


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> You should, but should doesnt translate to legally required to do so.    The stated liability would be dubious for the reasons i presented previously also.




I never said it was a legal requirement or even that it should be, just good practice.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I never said it was a legal requirement or even that it should be, just good practice.



That i would second, i was just relaying that i didnt do such a thing as well.  

Edit:  Upon re reading it was probbly ambious wording on both sides for this "issue".


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Tez has gone over how AED's in my country are of the type to walk you through it and as they seem to be included in low level first aid courses they clearly arent the most complicated of things. (shortest courses avalible)




Do not bring me into this, what is installed in the UK is something that saves lives because it's designed for the layman to use. It isn't something you need to go on a course for, it's only mentioned on first aid courses in respect of 'dial 999, tell the operator which service you require, when put through to the ambulance service they will ask you certain questions, then they will dispatch a paramedic and an ambulance ( we have 'flying' paramedic on motorbikes or fast cars who aim to get there before an ambulance) will be dispatched in the meantime they stay on the line to talk you through what is needed, if it's the defib, they will tell you the number to unlock your local one and as well as the instructors from the machine they check with you, operators stay on the line until the paramedic or the ambulance get there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> In hindsight, we probbly should not have used team sport anologies for this.         But, for the last point, their skill level doesnt realy matter.  if they arent trying to do it proffesionally its of no consiquence.    If they want to compete proffesionally well, if they decided since school all the coaching etc would be provided especially if they get scooped up by a team earlier on.If not they would seek out such instruction.   The base of information for a sport would be on average higher than not as people would literally practice doing said sport every day until they retire or decide to switch careers.     Thats the issue with a sport analysis of this.
> 
> 
> Now to apply this to self defence where (for sake of argument) the average amount of information would be lower?   Would coming in with a base of information and some practice, even if it only builds your atributes be suffcient?    More than likely.       It would be the comparision of something over nothing.
> ...


Bad habits aren't entirely subjective, if we're talking about being able to use the techniques in a fight. A good puch will be effective. A bad punch may not be, and may even lead to self-injury, either in practice (bad enough) or during actual use (worst case, if it's SD).

So, could someone learn to punch without a coach? Sure. But they won't know how well until they actually apply it somewhere. Can they learn to punch a competent target without a coach? Sure, if they have a competent target to practice against (which they won't know if their target is someone with the same training approach).

The problem is that, without some outside influence, you've got beginners trying to figure out whether something is good enough or not. And they don't have the information and perception (pattern recognition) to make that judgment. I've seen many, many students get a year in and suddenly understand something they've been told many times. I've seen many who, after a signficant amount of training suddenly ask the instructor why they've let them do something wrong for so long, only to be told, "I've told you many times that you were doing it wrong - you just didn't understand enough yet to hear it."

Is it possible for someone to get good without help? Yes. Is it likely? No. They would be an exception. In most cases, folks who are good at fighting without training are good because of some inherent development (size, aggression, etc.) that they would have with or without training.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Mar 3, 2020)

Do not do self training its not good you have to fight to be a fighter you have to be train to karate to learn karate


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Bad habits aren't entirely subjective, if we're talking about being able to use the techniques in a fight. A good puch will be effective. A bad punch may not be, and may even lead to self-injury, either in practice (bad enough) or during actual use (worst case, if it's SD).
> 
> So, could someone learn to punch without a coach? Sure. But they won't know how well until they actually apply it somewhere. Can they learn to punch a competent target without a coach? Sure, if they have a competent target to practice against (which they won't know if their target is someone with the same training approach).
> 
> ...



See i agree with some points and dont others.     The degree of precision for the punch can be argued.  You have cited what i would second would be a objectively bad punch.     But a subjective example would be what plenty of TMA styles do and have you drop your hands to your belt after each punch, without correction (really early on) that would become a habit that can become a issue.    Now if thats good or bad would entirely be on you.      There is also the issue of you not being able to do a "perfect" punch in reality.      As for breakage, if its SD, that shouldnt be much of a issue if its fighting for your life, your adrelenine should help you through that one and you would keep going until physically unable to, unless you adopt a defeatist attitude through it and give up.     Not ideal if you can avoid it, but even if you can do it right, you could smakc something or clip their skull in a scuffle, its not a life threatning injury to most people now days.   (as far as i know)


As for the outside influence, define what you consier it?  does it need to be a person physically there?   Could it be somone reviewing videos?   Could it be a well detailed book/video series?    As far as i am concerend, from scratch can be done, but as you can access a base of information, the more realstic and useful way is accessing some form of information and going from that.  

Last point, i am proposing "training", just not in the usual way.


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## Daibakuhatsu (Mar 3, 2020)

Jumping in from lurking...
Let me just say I did a lot of self training before I picked up Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and several other styles which I've done over the years.
The formal training advanced me by leaps and bounds that I never could have gotten alone.
But without that self training in my past, there are a handful of times when people would have beat my !@# six ways from Sunday and hurt others too. The sheer difficulty of self training and the hours of researching different arts, also allowed me to better evaluate schools and decide what was right for me.

What was I supposed to do living out in the boonies? Not train anything?

If you're yet untrained and have no instructors available - take responsibility and do something! Get some strength & conditioning out of the way. Read books and watch DVDs for research so you know where to train. Drill some basic movement patterns that you're going to need later. Don't just wait like somebody with no discipline.

Especially if the goal is self defense. Met so many ranked martial artists who I wouldn't count on in a fight it's ridiculous at this point.


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## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> But a subjective example would be what plenty of TMA styles do and have you drop your hands to your belt after each punch, without correction (really early on) that would become a habit that can become a issue. Now if thats good or bad would entirely be on you.



Okay, so don't go to a TMA school.  Go take boxing classes, or Muay Thai, or wrestling, or any of those arts that don't have the training practices you don't like.

Or train those arts for *more than 3 months* so you actually learn why they teach you that way.  For example, I wouldn't pull my hand to my hip after a punch.  But if I had ahold of your arm or sleeve, pulling my hand to my hip would pull you off-balance.  But you have to get past the basics first in order to learn it.



> There is also the issue of you not being able to do a "perfect" punch in reality.



Then any training, whether self-done or instructor-led, is a waste of time.  Boxers shouldn't bother training their punches, because it won't be perfect.  That's the level of logic in what you just said.  It is so wrong I don't even know where to begin trying to deconstruct it.



> As for breakage, if its SD, that shouldnt be much of a issue if its fighting for your life, your adrelenine should help you through that one and you would keep going until physically unable to, unless you adopt a defeatist attitude through it and give up. Not ideal if you can avoid it, but even if you can do it right, you could smakc something or clip their skull in a scuffle, its not a life threatning injury to most people now days. (as far as i know)



This is completely wrong.  Martial arts teaches you not just how to inflict damage on your opponent, but how to prevent that damage from being done to you.  That's why we keep our guard up in striking arts, why we train defense against submissions and pins in grappling arts, and why we learn the proper form of techniques so we don't hurt ourselves.  What you're proposing shows that you have no clue what real fighting is.


----------



## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

Daibakuhatsu said:


> Jumping in from lurking...
> Let me just say I did a lot of self training before I picked up Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and several other styles which I've done over the years.
> The formal training advanced me by leaps and bounds that I never could have gotten alone.
> But without that self training in my past, there are a handful of times when people would have beat my !@# six ways from Sunday and hurt others too. The sheer difficulty of self training and the hours of researching different arts, also allowed me to better evaluate schools and decide what was right for me.
> ...



There is a big difference between your situation and the OP's.  Your situation can be summarized as "I have no other options, so this is the best option available to me." 

His situation can be summarized as "I don't want to go to class."


----------



## Daibakuhatsu (Mar 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> His situation can be summarized as "I don't want to go to class."



But what are you basing this off of, that he said?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

Daibakuhatsu said:


> But what are you basing this off of, that he said?


Part of it's from discussions with him from other posts/threads.

My overall position is: if you physically can't train elsewhere, learn the basics and do mostly physical conditioning, until you get to a point that you can train somewhere. Spend time sparring with people, and be aware that most likely you're not learning enough to compete with a competent martial artist/fighter. If you can get to a dojo/gym/club/dojang/etc., and are choosing not to, while wanting to improve as a martial artist, then you're doing yourself a disservice. Especially if you don't have enough experience/skill to maintain your current level by itself.


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## Martial D (Mar 3, 2020)

You can't self train.

You can practice what you ALREADY know, and improve.

Next thread


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## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

Daibakuhatsu said:


> But what are you basing this off of, that he said?


His history of posts here.


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## dvcochran (Mar 3, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Please don't do this. If a blister pops on its own, feel free to remove the dead tissue. But don't pop it. The blister protects the underlying tissues.


Honestly, I don't do enough hard, manual labor any more to get many blisters. I get the occasional one or blood blisters from doing something stupid with a hammer or such.
I have popped them all my life. I would say I am just following what I was taught to do. I do not ever remember having a problem doing it, especially with blood blisters. Getting the pressure off feels much better to me. And as crazy as it sounds, I fully believe in Not popping a blood blister until the sun goes down. They do not hurt if you wait.
I do wait until the loose skin is getting hard(er).


----------



## drop bear (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Part of it's from discussions with him from other posts/threads.
> 
> My overall position is: if you physically can't train elsewhere, learn the basics and do mostly physical conditioning, until you get to a point that you can train somewhere. Spend time sparring with people, and be aware that most likely you're not learning enough to compete with a competent martial artist/fighter. If you can get to a dojo/gym/club/dojang/etc., and are choosing not to, while wanting to improve as a martial artist, then you're doing yourself a disservice. Especially if you don't have enough experience/skill to maintain your current level by itself.



Yeah but it hinges on the wrong things. Martial arts work because they work. They don't work because they have good branding.

So you have a system. You train it, test it and then come to a conclusion as to whether it is garbage or not. 

And you can gain all sorts of information from doing this. 

And this should happen whether or not you gained this technique from an expert a pretend expert or invented it yourself. 

So I recently did the rounds with Skribs over this with standing arm bars. Where he could not show the technique works. So that even though he may have learned a technique through the correct frame work. He hasn't put the technique through enough rigorous testing to say he can perform it or teach it effectively. 

Now without that rigorous testing the framework doesn't matter.

Now for best results you should have both. But given a choice testing will create more honest results.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but it hinges on the wrong things. Martial arts work because they work. They don't work because they have good branding.
> 
> So you have a system. You train it, test it and then come to a conclusion as to whether it is garbage or not.
> 
> ...


That’s true. But none of my post was about testing or evaluating the gym/dojo. Just self-training vs school-training.


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> That’s true. But none of my post was about testing or evaluating the gym/dojo. Just self-training vs school-training.



Correct. But that is my point.

It is like saying what is the best martial arts. Those who wear white Gi's or those who wear blue?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Correct. But that is my point.
> 
> It is like saying what is the best martial arts. Those who wear white Gi's or those who wear blue?


Again, not arguing, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. We agree on the idea that certain styles/schools are worse than others, and competition can verify that. But it's entirely unrelated to what I'm saying.


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Again, not arguing, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. We agree on the idea that certain styles/schools are worse than others, and competition can verify that. But it's entirely unrelated to what I'm saying.



Ok directly to what you are saying. Without external factors. Self taught and instructor taught makes no difference. Because the scope of self taught and instructor taught is so big they overlap. 

Exept instructor taught is more expensive.

When we add external factors. That is when we create a difference.


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## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok directly to what you are saying. Without external factors. Self taught and instructor taught makes no difference. Because the scope of self taught and instructor taught is so big they overlap.
> 
> Exept instructor taught is more expensive.
> 
> When we add external factors. That is when we create a difference.



I am absolutely shocked that this is coming from you.  Considering how critical you are of any martial art that doesn't train the way you like, even if it's the same techniques, I'd have expected you to be for instruction more than anyone else in the thread.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok directly to what you are saying. Without external factors. Self taught and instructor taught makes no difference. Because the scope of self taught and instructor taught is so big they overlap.
> 
> Exept instructor taught is more expensive.
> 
> When we add external factors. That is when we create a difference.


Ok so this is related to what im saying. And i absolutely disagree. Bad instruction is worse than self taught. Self taught is worse than good instruction.


----------



## skribs (Mar 3, 2020)

I came across this video, and thought of this thread:




It's part 5 of a series, I'll probably binge-watch it later.  There seems to be more in the series after it as well.  These are all people that *thought* they were great at martial arts, and instead didn't have the fighting ability.  Most of it is newbies coming into a gym and thinking they know everything.  The #7 one was a guy who was a "street fighter" with a "21-0 record".  He went into a BJJ gym and challenged the instructor to a boxing match, and still got his butt handed to him.

I also think of the purple belts at my school.  That's got to be one of the hardest classes for the kids.  Our school separates the classes by belt level.  When you start, you're in the white & yellow belt class.  For a lot of the kids, the most advanced stuff they see before they get their purple belt is the yellow belt stuff, which honestly isn't much more than what the white belts do.  The white belts have the basic punches, kicks, and blocks, and then yellow belts get a very simple form and a very simple set of one-steps (each one is just a block and a punch).

They leave for purple belt without realizing that they'll have to learn back kicks, how to do footwork with their kicks, spinning chops, and more complicated forms and one-steps.  We've had several kids leave crying in the middle of purple belt class, because they get overwhelmed with everything they have to do.  They felt like the king of the world; like they knew everything there was to know about Taekwondo.  And suddenly they get into a class where they don't know anything on the curriculum.  Usually a week or two and they get the hang of most of it.  That which they're still struggling with, they at least are confident enough that they can learn it.  But it's a huge shock when they realize there's a lot more to learn.  And that's just at purple belt.

By green belt (the next time they switch classes), they're older, and they've been through this experience already.  They usually handle this transition much better.

But this goes back to the points made to the OP.  You don't know what you don't know, and if you're training by yourself, those things that you don't know you don't know are the things that will hamper your training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> But a subjective example would be what plenty of TMA styles do and have you drop your hands to your belt after each punch, without correction (really early on) that would become a habit that can become a issue.


That's an inaccurate description of what's being taught/allowed in any case I've seen. I think this kind of misunderstanding of what's going on can lead you to think errors are more subjective (and system-based) than they are, in my experience.

While it's true a system will teach something is "wrong" that isn't actually (it's used successfully in another system), that's usually just a shorthand that gets corrected as the student advances. It's a method some instructors use to get students to stick to the base principles of the system until they learn enough to successfully vary from them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok directly to what you are saying. Without external factors. Self taught and instructor taught makes no difference. Because the scope of self taught and instructor taught is so big they overlap.
> 
> Exept instructor taught is more expensive.
> 
> When we add external factors. That is when we create a difference.


The overlap is mostly exceptions, in my experience. Self-taught folks are asking a beginner (themselves) to teach them. That's clear enough.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The overlap is mostly exceptions, in my experience. Self-taught folks are asking a beginner (themselves) to teach them. That's clear enough.



Not at all. There are plenty of very successful bouncers and street fighters who are self taught. 

It is a very common way to learn to fight.


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## _Simon_ (Mar 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Correct. But that is my point.
> 
> It is like saying what is the best martial arts. Those who wear white Gi's or those who wear blue?


Oh, white for sure. No question.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Not at all. There are plenty of very successful bouncers and street fighters who are self taught.
> 
> It is a very common way to learn to fight.


How far can you go by yourself without a MA teacher? I don't think one can learn "hip throw" without a teacher.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Not at all. There are plenty of very successful bouncers and street fighters who are self taught.
> 
> It is a very common way to learn to fight.


I would argue those are mostly the exceptions I've referred to before. And they not remain isolated in their training - they are (by definition of both groups) around others who are using the skills, and are testing them against a non-closed group.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 4, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That's an inaccurate description of what's being taught/allowed in any case I've seen. I think this kind of misunderstanding of what's going on can lead you to think errors are more subjective (and system-based) than they are, in my experience.
> 
> While it's true a system will teach something is "wrong" that isn't actually (it's used successfully in another system), that's usually just a shorthand that gets corrected as the student advances. It's a method some instructors use to get students to stick to the base principles of the system until they learn enough to successfully vary from them.



Under revision, it was indeed a poor example.    As it would objectively be bad if you are teaching that as a fighting stance.        As long as the gist of the point i was trying to make got through, its not a total loss.     I would also state i so-so get the point of resetting to the hip to teach punching mechanics.



Just for the sake of argument and as a presumption, shouldnt formal school trainign be thrown out?    As its essentially pointless to argue on that point as most people would do it if they could do it.  And then we fall into the "what if its a bad school/mcdojo/fake system?"  dilema.     It would be much better to just discuss alternatives on a scale and also non tradtional learning methods.   ie would contacting a isntructor and sending videos to them for review be superior to not?


----------



## skribs (Mar 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> Under revision, it was indeed a poor example.    As it would objectively be bad if you are teaching that as a fighting stance.        As long as the gist of the point i was trying to make got through, its not a total loss.     I would also state i so-so get the point of resetting to the hip to teach punching mechanics.
> 
> 
> 
> Just for the sake of argument and as a presumption, shouldnt formal school trainign be thrown out?    As its essentially pointless to argue on that point as most people would do it if they could do it.  And then we fall into the "what if its a bad school/mcdojo/fake system?"  dilema.     It would be much better to just discuss alternatives on a scale and also non tradtional learning methods.   ie would contacting a isntructor and sending videos to them for review be superior to not?



Will you take a class if it's not a traditional, formal class?  Are you willing to go to a class and take lessons from a boxing coach or a BJJ coach?  They don't teach in the same way that Taekwondo teaches.  Those styles might fit you a lot better.

Forget about taking a traditional Asian style art, since you hate those so much.  Take a western art that actually trains how you want to train.  Take an art that's popular in MMA and UFC, since those arts are shown to be effective against many other arts, and the schools are tested by competing against one another.

You don't want to do forms/patterns/kata?  You don't want to do chambered punches from the hip?  You don't want to go to a school that might be low quality?  Well you have a *ton* of options.  Go to a school that teaches one of the following:

Boxing
Kickboxing
Muay Thai
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Wrestling
Judo
MMA
There's 7 options.  All of these options are popular martial arts that compete against each other.  You should be able to see how the school does in competitions.  You can post a link to the school's website on Reddit (either on r/martialarts or on the appropriate subreddit, i.e. r/bjj for BJJ) and ask "is this school legit?"  If you go to one of those schools, you're going to learn the techniques the way they're taught for the full-contact sport, which will give you the training in the way you want it.

You don't like Taekwondo or traditional arts.  That's fine.  That's your prerogative.  But to take that experience and turn your back on other options that do fit what you want is just silly.  Why is it that you can't take any of the others?  Why can't you do boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, wrestling, Judo, or MMA?


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I would argue those are mostly the exceptions I've referred to before. And they not remain isolated in their training - they are (by definition of both groups) around others who are using the skills, and are testing them against a non-closed group.



No they are not because the results are consistent. 

And also basically reflects the mode of self training that I am suggesting. 

More consistent than say Skribs ever getting an arm bar to work in a fight. 

And all of this is because self taught and instructor taught is of less impact than learning in a manner that will actually transfer some sort of skills.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> Just for the sake of argument and as a presumption, shouldnt formal school trainign be thrown out? As its essentially pointless to argue on that point as most people would do it if they could do it. And then we fall into the "what if its a bad school/mcdojo/fake system?" dilema. It would be much better to just discuss alternatives on a scale and also non tradtional learning methods. ie would contacting a isntructor and sending videos to them for review be superior to not?



You need to still tick the boxes of a school that creates successful fighters. And you do not get the advantage of learning from someone with experience. 

Which are problems you could face going to an instructor anyway. 

But for the best development you want as many advantages to your learning as you can. If you can.


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## dvcochran (Mar 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And also basically reflects the mode of self training that I am suggesting.
> 
> And all of this is because self taught and instructor taught is of less impact than learning in a manner that will actually transfer some sort of skills.





drop bear said:


> And you do not get the advantage of learning from someone with experience.



You contradicted yourself in the two posts. 

In the self-training model, how does a person know What to train? Aside from getting pummeled over and over in bar fights. Which I still do not believe will teach a person what Works. At best it may teach you what does Not work it you have any brain cells left to figure that out. 
Even if a person watches hundreds of Youtube videos, how do they really know if they work and if they are doing them anywhere near correctly if training on their own?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You contradicted yourself in the two posts.
> 
> In the self-training model, how does a person know What to train? Aside from getting pummeled over and over in bar fights. Which I still do not believe will teach a person what Works. At best it may teach you what does Not work it you have any brain cells left to figure that out.
> Even if a person watches hundreds of Youtube videos, how do they really know if they work and if they are doing them anywhere near correctly if training on their own?



No there are disadvantages to self training but those disadvantages are not fixed by an instructor in isolation.

So for example a self defense instructor may have been in no more self defense situations than anyone else and is basically doing what rat suggests watching you tube and hoping.

And then how does that instructor know what to train?

Otherwise you would need to test your techniques to see if they work. And an instructor doesn't guarantee that either. Because there are techniques instructors don't test.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No they are not because the results are consistent.
> 
> And also basically reflects the mode of self training that I am suggesting.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure your usage of "self-taught" is consistent with the way I've been describing it in the discussion. And I'd be curious how you support the claim that the results are consistent....or are you just describing the results you see from the folks who make it to those positions you point at, because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.


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## dvcochran (Mar 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And then how does that instructor know what to train?


It had to start somewhere in history. Many principles and styles got started when groups of people gathered together regularly to practice. 



drop bear said:


> Otherwise you would need to test your techniques to see if they work. And an instructor doesn't guarantee that either. Because there are techniques instructors don't test.


Agree. But a workout environment (dojo/dojang) controlled environment in which to test your skills. And usually a better vehicle to get into a competition circuit.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And then how does that instructor know what to train?


Through MA tournament experience of course. Is that just common sense?


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure your usage of "self-taught" is consistent with the way I've been describing it in the discussion. And I'd be curious how you support the claim that the results are consistent....or are you just describing the results you see from the folks who make it to those positions you point at, because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.



There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.

They are self taught.

*because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.*

Not the case from my experience.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Through MA tournament experience of course. Is that just common sense?



Depends. There is twisted logic that would suggest that an instructor with no tournament experience and no self defense experience can still teach self defense.

I assume they are basically self taught.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It had to start somewhere in history. Many principles and styles got started when groups of people gathered together regularly to practice.
> 
> 
> Agree. But a workout environment (dojo/dojang) controlled environment in which to test your skills. And usually a better vehicle to get into a competition circuit.



That's fine but we are moving away from a method of learning that will probably work. See a technique, practice it, test it on someone then refine the technique. With a separate issue of instructors vs self taught.

I mean I could go on youtube and learn a technique. 

I could go to a class and never test a technique properly.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> just describing the results you see from the folks who make it to those positions you point at, because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.



How do you define the success of what you teach then?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.
> 
> They are self taught.
> 
> ...


Where's your proof for it? Someone else posted proof that people who are self taught lose when they enter competitions. Do you have videos or proof showing that bouncers without training do well in full contact competitions?


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I mean I could go on youtube and learn a technique.


The same argument still holds. How does an individual working out on their own Without guidance or resistance Know what they are trying to emulate from watching a video is valid and correct?



drop bear said:


> I could go to a class and never test a technique properly.



Possibly, but the odds of this happening are exponentially less likely.

Working out on your own is required for most people to stay fit and healthy. The quantity and intensity of the workouts go up based on the persons requirements (casual exercise vs. local tourneys vs. circuit fighter, etc...). To be effective, the solo training is done based on what has already been learned from some kind of previous formal/group training. 
This is not discounting a persons own knowledge gained from personal experience or lifestyle or even genetics for that matter.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.
> 
> They are self taught.
> 
> ...



This largely makes the point. Bouncers with little to no training are genetically predisposed. Big, muscular, and strong. How they were raised also plays a huge factor. A couch potato most likely is Not going to be a bouncer no matter how much they fit the typical bouncer model. They are going to have the wrong mentality If a person who fits the bouncer model grew up a little hard and rough, then the transition into bouncing could be quite natural. 
Smaller bouncers exist but they either have skills beyond raw strength and physics or do not bounce very long in the 'harsher' environments.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.
> 
> They are self taught.
> 
> ...


So, in your experience, the unsucccessful also become bouncers?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> How do you define the success of what you teach then?


If they are able, in the long run, to apply the principles against someone who's offering resistance. There's a continuum, of course, and some folks (either because of their physical ability or their applied priorities) won't get as far as others.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I mean I could go on youtube and learn a technique.


You could. I can. Anybody can. Except if they have no foundation to build upon (no prior training/experience), they are quite likely to fail to understand the important parts and get bits wrong enough they don't learn well. You are not an example of what's being discussed in the thread, because you have a base to build upon.


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

'Bouncers' in the UK have to do a course to be certified before they can work this includes restraint procedures. Being self taught isn't an option.
Door supervisor licence - GOV.UK


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## Gweilo (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There are a majority of working bouncers who don't train self defense training but are still capable of self defence.



Thats because they mostly fight drunk teenagers.


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Thats because they mostly fight drunk teenagers.


Possibly, but there are some Big teenagers out there. Add this with hormones, adrenaline, and alcohol and it could be quite a challenge.


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## Gweilo (Mar 5, 2020)

I was talking about back in the late 80's early 90's before door safe etc.


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## Martial D (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Not at all. There are plenty of very successful bouncers and street fighters who are self taught.
> 
> It is a very common way to learn to fight.


This can be true if these bouncers and streetfighters are out there laying hands on people, against the sort of real world resistance that can separate the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

Not so much for the guy mimicking Bruce Lee in front of the mirror.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

Martial D said:


> This can be true if these bouncers and streetfighters are out there laying hands on people, against the sort of real world resistance that can separate the proverbial wheat from the chaff.
> 
> Not so much for the guy mimicking Bruce Lee in front of the mirror.


Are you telling me that Bulletproof Monk is a lie????


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You need to still tick the boxes of a school that creates successful fighters. And you do not get the advantage of learning from someone with experience.
> 
> Which are problems you could face going to an instructor anyway.
> 
> But for the best development you want as many advantages to your learning as you can. If you can.



Oh, i thought i ha da rebuttal, but i would have just worded it diffrently if i was going to write it.

This is also why for sake of argument schools should be ruled out as you have to assess quality of school, then style/federation for goals.     And it just (as has been evident in this thread) defaults back to "go to a school".



Gweilo said:


> Thats because they mostly fight drunk teenagers.



Depends where, you havent taken into account they are just specilised security guards.   They have to deal with anything from just drunks that need to be removed that arent violent to people walking in with rifles and anything inbetween.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

Rat said:


> Depends where, you havent taken into account they are just specilised security guards. They have to deal with anything from just drunks that need to be removed that arent violent to people walking in with rifles and anything inbetween.


The bouncers I've worked with never have to deal with people with rifles or anything like that. It's mostly folks who need to be removed because of behavior (mostly drunks) and folks who get into fights (probably still mostly drunks, but also includes some folks who haven't had that much yet).


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## skribs (Mar 5, 2020)

Rat said:


> This is also why for sake of argument schools should be ruled out as you have to assess quality of school, then style/federation for goals. And it just (as has been evident in this thread) defaults back to "go to a school".



You have to do the same for any videos you get in self-training.  I also provided you with several arts where assessing the quality of the school, style, and federation should be easy, since those styles regularly compete and are prominent in MMA.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The bouncers I've worked with never have to deal with people with rifles or anything like that. It's mostly folks who need to be removed because of behavior (mostly drunks) and folks who get into fights (probably still mostly drunks, but also includes some folks who haven't had that much yet).



Its by far not a commonality for many people.   And if it is you should be armed for it or the police should be patrolling around there.     But unlucky if it does, as its your issue as security.   Even if you just direct people to exits and call the police.

A more common situation would be gang related stabbings, i dont know if any sane person would decide to shoot somone inside a populated pub, outside is a diffrent matter though.


The disparity in what they have to deal with is pretty real though, ranging from the common issues (as stated) to terrorism or things on par with it.

Edit: i have heard mixed things about the SIA licence and how useful their minimum required knowledge to work as, is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

Rat said:


> Its by far not a commonality for many people.   And if it is you should be armed for it or the police should be patrolling around there.     But unlucky if it does, as its your issue as security.   Even if you just direct people to exits and call the police.
> 
> A more common situation would be gang related stabbings, i dont know if any sane person would decide to shoot somone inside a populated pub, outside is a diffrent matter though.
> 
> ...


My point is that you posted that they have to deal with all of those thing. The bouncers I've worked with aren't trained for firearms or terrorism any more than the bartender or any other employee, and never had to deal with either.


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## skribs (Mar 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> My point is that you posted that they have to deal with all of those thing. The bouncers I've worked with aren't trained for firearms or terrorism any more than the bartender or any other employee, and never had to deal with either.



You have to factor in he's replacing experience with supposition.


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## Gweilo (Mar 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> You have to factor in he's replacing experience with supposition.



Yes, I thought that too, or he started the thread to try to reafirm his desire not to actually start training properly. Train at home by all means, but get the help of someone who knows what they are doing, and in a place where you are aloud to pressure test what you learn


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

Rat said:


> Depends where, you havent taken into account they are just specilised security guards. They have to deal with anything from just drunks that need to be removed that arent violent to people walking in with rifles and anything inbetween.




Well I'm sure that will come as a surprise to all the door staff I know. 'Just' specialised security guards?. 

What they deal with here, is security issues ( funnily enough), fire safety, crime (theft, assaults, fraud), drug offences (drug dealers), first aid, dealing with drunks certainly ( not just the troublesome ones, the lost and sick ones too) and basically making sure the venue is safe and people have a good time. Here they usually work with the police, having a good working relationship with the local police is vital now.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> Where's your proof for it? Someone else posted proof that people who are self taught lose when they enter competitions. Do you have videos or proof showing that bouncers without training do well in full contact competitions?



There is no proof for any of it though. Instructor taught or self taught.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Thats because they mostly fight drunk teenagers.



Who do your self defense guys fight?


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

Martial D said:


> This can be true if these bouncers and streetfighters are out there laying hands on people, against the sort of real world resistance that can separate the proverbial wheat from the chaff.
> 
> Not so much for the guy mimicking Bruce Lee in front of the mirror.



There are elements in training that matter. If you had an instructor and mimicked bruce lee in a mirror. You would have the same result in fighting ability.


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## Martial D (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There are elements in training that matter. If you had an instructor and mimicked bruce lee in a mirror. You would have the same result in fighting ability.


That depends on the instructor. If he understood the how and why of those movements, and how to use them against resistance, that would give different results than if the instructor did not understand these things.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 5, 2020)

Rat said:


> If you see the preface about skill variety and variety in the learning curve...      Also for the sake of the point, there is a printed manual on first aid, which is both meant as a guide to people who dont know how to do anything and second as a refrence for people with certificates.



Could you name that printed manual on first aid please?


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

Martial D said:


> That depends on the instructor. If he understood the how and why of those movements, and how to use them against resistance, that would give different results than if the instructor did not understand these things.



Correct. And I did a big spiel back there on how a whole bunch of factors that have nothing to do with whether there is an instructor or not will determine success.

Like the instructor should have some sort of clue as to what he is teaching.

But we are isolating this to instruction vs self taught. And that on it's own is not as big a factor.

So for example you really could just go out in to the back yard with some gloves and box and wrestle and walk away from that process a better fighter than say if you went to a school and spent time doing standing arm bars that you gave never had to fight for.






Now admittedly neither of these guys are self taught. But as an example.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> My point is that you posted that they have to deal with all of those thing. The bouncers I've worked with aren't trained for firearms or terrorism any more than the bartender or any other employee, and never had to deal with either.



But they deal with firearms and terrorism. I searched shopping centers for bombs after we found one. And a guy I used to work with was shot in a biker dispute.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 5, 2020)

oftheherd1 said:


> Could you name that printed manual on first aid please?



Workplace First Aid Manual | Seton

What ever is the most recent edition of that.     It was a presumption that its scope includes being a refrence book for laymen as well as persons getting or who have a first aid certificate.     (i have a outdated one personally, but i think at best only one or two editions)


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## Martial D (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Correct. And I did a big spiel back there on how a whole bunch of factors that have nothing to do with whether there is an instructor or not will determine success.
> 
> Like the instructor should have some sort of clue as to what he is teaching.
> 
> ...


Ya, totally

There's a scale. At the bottom are  'instructors' that have no clue, and self taught mirror Bruce Lees.

And it goes up from there till you get to the Greg Jackson/Firas Zahabi tier.


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I searched shopping centers for bombs after we found one.




That's retail security here not door work.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 5, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Well I'm sure that will come as a surprise to all the door staff I know. 'Just' specialised security guards?.
> 
> What they deal with here, is security issues ( funnily enough), fire safety, crime (theft, assaults, fraud), drug offences (drug dealers), first aid, dealing with drunks certainly ( not just the troublesome ones, the lost and sick ones too) and basically making sure the venue is safe and people have a good time. Here they usually work with the police, having a good working relationship with the local police is vital now.




Best wording to generalise them as each country regulates them diffrently.   It could very really be a matter of semantics in some or where you plan on working in others.    Or not a issue at all as its not regulated.  

And i am from the same country as you.         I would dispute fire safety, but most places employ security in a fire safety role of some description as well as first aider.  (especially on account of them needing a first aid certificate to get some licences)     But that was also my point, secuirty are in charge of protecting staff, patrons and property, if somone came in stabbing people its their job to deal with it, same with shooting etc.      Note the usage of "deal with it", many situations would lead to what they can do and how.  


Also 10/10 for compartive doorman studies coversation going on now.


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

Rat said:


> Best wording to generalise them as each country regulates them diffrently.   It could very really be a matter of semantics in some or where you plan on working in others.    Or not a issue at all as its not regulated.
> 
> And i am from the same country as you.         I would dispute fire safety, but most places employ security in a fire safety role of some description as well as first aider.  (especially on account of them needing a first aid certificate to get some licences)     But that was also my point, secuirty are in charge of protecting staff, patrons and property, if somone came in stabbing people its their job to deal with it, same with shooting etc.      Note the usage of "deal with it", many situations would lead to what they can do and how.
> 
> ...




It was the word *'just'* I was  questioning. somewhat demeaning.

Of course fire safety comes into it, where wouldn't it?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 5, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> It was the word *'just'* I was questioning. somewhat demeaning.


Just the way i write things.  (pardon the unintetional pun that might be there)



Tez3 said:


> Of course fire safety comes into it, where wouldn't it?


Depends if another staff member(s) has taken over the responsibility for that.     But as i stated its a common thing that they basically absorb first responder duties. I also dont dispute its a common thing for companies to do.


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

Rat said:


> Depends if another staff member(s) has taken over the responsibility for that. But as i stated its a common thing that they basically absorb first responder duties. I also dont dispute its a common thing for companies to do.




I'm not sure if you understand that 'fire safety' is an ongoing thing, such as making sure that there aren't too many people in a building, that fire doors aren't blocked etc. It's part of the door supervisors job as well to be able to know what to do in case of a fire, as well as evacuate a building etc. I think the type of fire safety you are thinking about is fire prevention which is the responsibility of the fire service and their inspections.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> That's retail security here not door work.



Here we have crowd control. Which is people and security which is property. 

And so almost everything just becomes crowd control.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> But they deal with firearms and terrorism. I searched shopping centers for bombs after we found one. And a guy I used to work with was shot in a biker dispute.


Here, bouncers wouldn’t be involved in a OMG search. And most of the bouncers I’ve worked with or trained with never faced a gun, though many of them have barred or confiscated guns from folks trying to enter the club. Same with knives (of which I’ve confiscated a large handful even in my short time on the door).


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> You have to factor in he's replacing experience with supposition.



The whole industry confuses those two elements. 

Again to actually confirm or deny the concept of self training it would be through competition. 

With self defense you can "in my experience. Or I suppose" all day I mean everyone else does it so I assume that is the standard.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Here, bouncers wouldn’t be involved in a OMG search. And most of the bouncers I’ve worked with or trained with never faced a gun, though many of them have barred or confiscated guns from folks trying to enter the club. Same with knives (of which I’ve confiscated a large handful even in my short time on the door).



The bouncers I worked with have. And the majority were not trained in self defense.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

Rat said:


> Best wording to generalise them as each country regulates them diffrently.   It could very really be a matter of semantics in some or where you plan on working in others.    Or not a issue at all as its not regulated.
> 
> And i am from the same country as you.         I would dispute fire safety, but most places employ security in a fire safety role of some description as well as first aider.  (especially on account of them needing a first aid certificate to get some licences)     But that was also my point, secuirty are in charge of protecting staff, patrons and property, if somone came in stabbing people its their job to deal with it, same with shooting etc.      Note the usage of "deal with it", many situations would lead to what they can do and how.
> 
> ...



Yeah I was one of the first responders in a shopping center that basically blew up there at one point. 

Because we have the keys to things we tend to go in first.


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The bouncers I've worked with never have to deal with people with rifles or anything like that. It's mostly folks who need to be removed because of behavior (mostly drunks) and folks who get into fights (probably still mostly drunks, but also includes some folks who haven't had that much yet).


Agree. I cannot remember of a gun related incident at a club/bar that did end with the business closing down shortly after. People are just not going to frequent that kind of environment very much.


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> But they deal with firearms and terrorism. I searched shopping centers for bombs after we found one. And a guy I used to work with was shot in a biker dispute.


I do not doubt any of this. But a bouncer searching a shopping center for a bomb is normal? I know very well that biker bars can get rough but again, is that the 'norm'?
Don't misunderstand, preparation for any of it is paramount. But the guy still got stabbed. I imagine there is a lot more to that story.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The bouncers I worked with have. And the majority were not trained in self defense.


According to you, nobody is, so...


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. I cannot remember of a gun related incident at a club/bar that did end with the business closing down shortly after. People are just not going to frequent that kind of environment very much.


Agreed. The guy I've worked for is pretty fanatical about making sure everyone is properly checked to prevent any guns and knives getting in. One bad situation, and the club probably doesn't make it.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> According to you, nobody is, so...



Well if we go by your argument that people like bouncers have basically been naturally selected.

*because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.*

According to you nobody is either.

So check this out. So say my self defense school trains bouncers and cops and so on. So therefore it shows my training works.

Sorry. *because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.
*
Say my system has a been proven in battle for generations. 

Sorry. *because that's likely LONG after the unsuccessful have mostly selected themselves out.*


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I do not doubt any of this. But a bouncer searching a shopping center for a bomb is normal? I know very well that biker bars can get rough but again, is that the 'norm'?
> Don't misunderstand, preparation for any of it is paramount. But the guy still got stabbed. I imagine there is a lot more to that story.



The shooting was I think a contract dispute. So gangster run security companies would send some guys in to the pub and bash all the security. Then they would go to the owner and say "your guards are terrible you should employ our guards" 

This particular guard was a street fighting monster. And so they shot him instead.


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The shooting was I think a contract dispute. So gangster run security companies would send some guys in to the pub and bash all the security. Then they would go to the owner and say "your guards are terrible you should employ our guards"
> 
> This particular guard was a street fighting monster. And so they shot him instead.


In the states they are called the mafia.


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## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> In the states they are called the mafia.



Yeah. We sort of have mafia here.  these guys were specifically bikers. (The comencheros I think. But pretty much the same thing.


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## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2020)

On the subject of bombs, I believe in the UK we have more experience of them than most. We've had some horrendous bombing campaigns, it has become everyone's 'job' to look for bombs. The first 'modern' bombing began in 1972 ( we'd had bombings in the late 1880s from the same source as well as a bombing campaign, 290 bombs, in 1939) with the bombing at Aldershot which killed 7 civilians, the next year four car bombs in London including Whitehall where I was working at the time. It went on from there, over 3500 people have been killed . The latest Al Qaeda type bomber is another in a long line of things we have to watch for here, there are still car bombs etc in Northern Ireland and here.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 6, 2020)

Just worth noting i didnt state that bombings and terorirsm  or things compartible ins cale to it would be common for most people.   Just it can happen and if you are security you have to deal with it if it does happen.



dvcochran said:


> But a bouncer searching a shopping center for a bomb is normal? I



It could be a situation where a shopping centre has a bar in it or the like and the doormen there belong to the centre so can be dragged to issues outside it, or be expected to aid the generic shopping centre security.   (if they are seperate)   Centres themselves tend to provide all the security or most of it to the stores inside.  

Also 10/10 for comparative security studies here.


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## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2020)

Rat said:


> Just worth noting i didnt state that bombings and terorirsm or things compartible ins cale to it would be common for most people. Just it can happen and if you are security you have to deal with it if it does happen.




Just worth noting, no one said you did state ''that bombings and terrorism or things compatible in scale to it would be common for most people.'' 
See what I did there? 

...….apart from the fact it's common in Northern Ireland and common enough in mainland UK that we aren't surprised when it happens.


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## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

Rat said:


> Just worth noting i didnt state that bombings and terorirsm  or things compartible ins cale to it would be common for most people.   Just it can happen and if you are security you have to deal with it if it does happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rat, it is very obvious that my post was directed to one person. There is absolutely No reason for you to feel compelled to reply to a post you have zero to do with. Quite offensive.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Rat, it is very obvious that my post was directed to one person. There is absolutely No reason for you to feel compelled to reply to a post you have zero to do with. Quite offensive.


I don't know about that. It's an open forum, and folks hop in and comment on posts not related to them from time to time.

See what I did there?


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## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. We sort of have mafia here.  these guys were specifically bikers. (The comencheros I think. But pretty much the same thing.


As far as biker gangs we have a lot. The Hell's Angels, Outlaws, Pagan's, and Bandito's are the big ones here. We have quite an Outlaw presence in my town. I can't remember ever having trouble out of them. The Bandito's tried to move in a couple years ago. Two deaths and quite a lot of unlawful activity. One of my best friends is DEA. He told me the DEA worked With the outlaws to get rid of the other club. It worked.


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

Rat said:


> Just worth noting i didnt state that bombings and terorirsm  or things compartible ins cale to it would be common for most people.   Just it can happen and if you are security you have to deal with it if it does happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A lot of supposition here about how things work.  And a lot of it wrong.

The more you post like this, the less credible you become.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Rat, it is very obvious that my post was directed to one person. There is absolutely No reason for you to feel compelled to reply to a post you have zero to do with. Quite offensive.



I could take offence that you feel that i cannot comment on something in a public forum, or that you feel it is a compulsion.  No issue, but the offence can be taken both ways in this regard.

And for obligtory sake i am presuming you are replying to only the bit directly under my quotation of your post.    If not, that is the only part that is directed towards you specfically.


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## frank raud (Mar 6, 2020)

frank raud said:


> @Rat ,
> 
> You haven't answered this question
> 
> ...



I took these questions out of longer posts to be sure you could see them and have a chance to respond. No reply yet. Can you not answer these simple questions?


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

frank raud said:


> I took these questions out of longer posts to be sure you could see them and have a chance to respond. No reply yet. Can you not answer these simple questions?



Or my question about why  he doesn't take any of the popular MMA arts: boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, wrestling, or just train at an MMA gym.  None of those arts use kata (at least, not in the way we normally think of kata) and they would all be very easy to verify the legitimacy of the school by looking at their competition records.

It would address his biggest concerns (legitimacy of the art, quality of the school, don't teach kata).

However, I think the reason he hasn't answered my question is because he put me on ignore.


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## Tez3 (Mar 6, 2020)

Rat said:


> And for obligtory sake




I do feel that obligatory sake would be a good way to fight off the Coronavirus, I wonder if they've tried it in Japan?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I do feel that obligatory sake would be a good way to fight off the Coronavirus, I wonder if they've tried it in Japan?


Can't mark "funny", "agree", and "useful" all at once.


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## Gweilo (Mar 6, 2020)

Rat is entitled to his opinion, hes wrong, but hes entitled to his wrong opinion.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 6, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I do feel that obligatory sake would be a good way to fight off the Coronavirus, I wonder if they've tried it in Japan?



Sake is typically 15-17% alcohol. 30-34 proof. To be of any use for fighting covid-19, it needs to be at least 60%/120 proof.


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## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> Or my question about why  he doesn't take any of the popular MMA arts: boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, wrestling, or just train at an MMA gym.  None of those arts use kata (at least, not in the way we normally think of kata) and they would all be very easy to verify the legitimacy of the school by looking at their competition records.
> 
> It would address his biggest concerns (legitimacy of the art, quality of the school, don't teach kata).
> 
> However, I think the reason he hasn't answered my question is because he put me on ignore.


Troll. Call a spade a spade.


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## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

Gweilo said:


> Rat is entitled to his opinion, hes wrong, but hes entitled to his wrong opinion.


Agree.  I think it is sometimes better to keep our opinions to ourselves however. There is a wise quality in silence sometimes.


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Troll. Call a spade a spade.



To clarify, are you calling me a troll, or Rat?



dvcochran said:


> Agree. I think it is sometimes better to keep our opinions to ourselves however. There is a wise quality in silence sometimes.



My big issue is that he gives people advice, and does it with the confidence of someone who knows what he's talking about.  Someone like you or me can see right through it, but someone who is new to martial arts may actually believe him.  And as others have pointed out, some of his ideas are dangerous.


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## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> To clarify, are you calling me a troll, or Rat?
> 
> 
> 
> My big issue is that he gives people advice, and does it with the confidence of someone who knows what he's talking about.  Someone like you or me can see right through it, but someone who is new to martial arts may actually believe him.  And as others have pointed out, some of his ideas are dangerous.


Rat. 

I cannot figure out where his perspectives come from. Total randomness most of the time. Saying something for the sake of just saying something is a bad quality. IMHO


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Rat.
> 
> I cannot figure out where his perspectives come from. Total randomness most of the time. Saying something for the sake of just saying something is a bad quality. IMHO



I don't know if he's just trolling or genuinely believes this stuff.  Either way, I have the same issue: he gives people advice.


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## Gweilo (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> I don't know if he's just trolling or genuinely believes this stuff.  Either way, I have the same issue: he gives people advice.



This reminds me of the fact, a little knowledge is dangerous, I welcome Rats views on some subjects, but others, ask questions yes, but know when to STFU.


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## Headhunter (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> Or my question about why  he doesn't take any of the popular MMA arts: boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, wrestling, or just train at an MMA gym.  None of those arts use kata (at least, not in the way we normally think of kata) and they would all be very easy to verify the legitimacy of the school by looking at their competition records.
> 
> It would address his biggest concerns (legitimacy of the art, quality of the school, don't teach kata).
> 
> However, I think the reason he hasn't answered my question is because he put me on ignore.


He'll answer any question (especially those he doesn't have the real answer to) expect for anything to do with why he's not training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sake is typically 15-17% alcohol. 30-34 proof. To be of any use for fighting covid-19, it needs to be at least 60%/120 proof.


So, drink more??


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## _Simon_ (Mar 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know about that. It's an open forum, and folks hop in and comment on posts not related to them from time to time.
> 
> See what I did there?


WHAT are you accusing me of?!?!?!?


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## drop bear (Mar 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> As far as biker gangs we have a lot. The Hell's Angels, Outlaws, Pagan's, and Bandito's are the big ones here. We have quite an Outlaw presence in my town. I can't remember ever having trouble out of them. The Bandito's tried to move in a couple years ago. Two deaths and quite a lot of unlawful activity. One of my best friends is DEA. He told me the DEA worked With the outlaws to get rid of the other club. It worked.



Yeah we had some big issues with bikers here and have since banned them. I am not upset to see that culture go to be honest.


----------

