# Pak Mei Pai forms



## tigercrane (Aug 25, 2015)

Pak Mai remains one of the very rare Southern styles that you don't hear much about, let alone see forms being shown. I could hand-count the videos that I've seen on YT and elsewhere, which show a form or an application here and there and not much else. I own two books that delve into details of training but cannot find any material that would contain all forms.

From my understanding this style is still largely underground in HK and there are less than few qualified instructors in the US.

Does anyone know if all complete forms exist in any type of published material anywhere? Thanks!


----------



## clfsean (Aug 25, 2015)

Nope. Some of the more common forms (Jik Bo, Gau Bu Toi, Sup Ji, Sek Si, Ying Jow Nim) are pretty much everywhere, but not too much in print for forms that I've come across. Besides, without a good grip on Tun/To/Fou/Chum & the whole Hakka theory on things, it would make about not much sense at all.


----------



## tigercrane (Aug 25, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Nope. Some of the more common forms (Jik Bo, Gau Bu Toi, Sup Ji, Sek Si, Ying Jow Nim) are pretty much everywhere, but not too much in print for forms that I've come across. Besides, without a good grip on Tun/To/Fou/Chum & the whole Hakka theory on things, it would make about not much sense at all.



Thanks for replying. After working with some texts, I came to realization that Hakka folks have several styles that share similar principles. For instance, Southern Mantis (Jook Lum), Kei Lun Kuen and Wing Chun have similar bridges, dropped shoulders, sunken elbows, punches originating from the chest, concave chest, etc. 

What really sets Pak Mei apart in its uniqueness is the explosive (sudden scare type) power, which is almost like a jump after being zapped by a thousand volts. Another interesting aspects are the use of phoenix eye fist, finger strikes, footwork that is semi-circular with toes gripping the ground, etc. It is complex an neither hard nor soft.


----------



## Mikeitup (Aug 26, 2015)

There are different versions out there. Cheung Lai Chun, Fatsan and even Omei Pak Mei. Each have similar forms and follow pretty much the same Hakka methods (float, sink, swallow spit) with some slight differences (as in any system). Willy Pang has a couple of books out on the subject of CLC Pak Mei and Tyler Rea has some books out too.


----------



## Mikeitup (Aug 26, 2015)




----------



## tigercrane (Aug 26, 2015)

Mikeitup said:


> There are different versions out there. Cheung Lai Chun, Fatsan and even Omei Pak Mei. Each have similar forms and follow pretty much the same Hakka methods (float, sink, swallow spit) with some slight differences (as in any system). Willy Pang has a couple of books out on the subject of CLC Pak Mei and Tyler Rea has some books out too.



Thank you for replying! Yes, I own these two books. Tyler Rea's one describes the basic methods but falls short on providing forms. Likewise, Willy Pang's book explores the training methods but provides no forms either. 

And yes, the videos below are great but again, they are not informative as far as the forms are concerned. I probably will have to accept that some arts are just that unaccessible.


----------



## guy b. (Jan 12, 2016)

tigercrane said:


> Thanks for replying. After working with some texts, I came to realization that Hakka folks have several styles that share similar principles. For instance, Southern Mantis (Jook Lum), Kei Lun Kuen and Wing Chun have similar bridges, dropped shoulders, sunken elbows, punches originating from the chest, concave chest, etc.
> 
> What really sets Pak Mei apart in its uniqueness is the explosive (sudden scare type) power, which is almost like a jump after being zapped by a thousand volts. Another interesting aspects are the use of phoenix eye fist, finger strikes, footwork that is semi-circular with toes gripping the ground, etc. It is complex an neither hard nor soft.



Wing chun does not have the same power generation as Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Tong Long and others. It is a very different system. 

I would also say that SPM, BM etc are all virtually the same thing. All must have originated from same Hakka generic methods


----------



## Mikeitup (Jan 14, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Wing chun does not have the same power generation as Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Tong Long and others. It is a very different system.
> 
> I would also say that SPM, BM etc are all virtually the same thing. All must have originated from same Hakka generic methods



Well they all were developed in the same geographic area in southern china and they are similar yet have their obvious differences etc. Its said that they all developed from Lo Man Gar the old beggars arts and used to be called collectively Hakka kuen. SPM has 4 branches, Chu Gar, Jook Lum, Dit Ngau and Chow Gar.


----------



## Knapf (Mar 4, 2017)

Is there anyone else currently doing Bak Mei? I would like to discuss more about Bak Mei


----------



## DaleDugas (Mar 8, 2017)

You will not be able to learn a form from a book, hence most systems do not publish them.  Hakka systems are also more closed door compared to other arts that have been watered down over the years.

There are great Bak Mei/Bai Mei teachers here in the US, as well as Canada, UK and other nations.

There are many groups on Facebook as well.


----------



## VPT (Jul 5, 2017)

All of the Bak Mei forms that form the core set taught by Cheung Lai Cheng are widely available on YouTube. I remember having checked every single one of them.

Knapf, you train a lineage from Malaysia. Do you train any unique routines outside the CLC set?


----------



## Knapf (Jul 5, 2017)

VPT said:


> All of the Bak Mei forms that form the core set taught by Cheung Lai Cheng are widely available on YouTube. I remember having checked every single one of them.
> 
> Knapf, you train a lineage from Malaysia. Do you train any unique routines outside the CLC set?


Regarding your question in the other thread,I know there is a relation to CLC because my Sifu has mentioned a few times but don't know what exactly. Perhaps once I get employed and have a job I can rejoin the Bak Mei classes and ask my Sifu again haha. My first form is called tung jit kuen. I tried searching about it on the net using what I presume are the chinese characters but I all can get are jit kuen do(bruce lee's jeetkundo)


----------



## VPT (Jul 5, 2017)

I can maybe help you. 






Is it the correct one?


----------



## Knapf (Jul 5, 2017)

VPT said:


> I can maybe help you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha. Correct. Correct. That is exactly the 1st form. Where is this located?


----------



## VPT (Jul 5, 2017)

Knew it! _I'm good._ 

I believe that was shot in HK, and as far as I'm aware of, it's not one of the original forms, which of course does not degrade it by any means. It's simply just created later and looks like a good beginner form to me.

It's from the Yau Kung Moon school, as written on their shirts.

Edit: And by the fact that your teacher has this form, I can say with some certainty that the connection to CLC comes from Ha Hon Hung, one of his early students.


----------



## Knapf (Jul 5, 2017)

So what made you join BM? I like it because of it's unique ways to generate power. Although I have to get used to evading opponent's punches unlike accepting them head on like my pre-BM era.


----------



## VPT (Jul 5, 2017)

My teacher asked me. Yes, he actually did.  

I was at that time learning some old-style karate from him, which he had studied before. Then, when I was moving closer to his location he asked whether I was interested in joining his BM group. I did, haven't regretted although the first months were frustrating trying to activate the correct muscles to generate power.

BM has a really effective way to engage the spine in your striking technique. The short power is the famous application, but it makes hilarious defense as well. Gotta love the sook sau  On the flipside of it though, I have had to come terms with the fact that I suck at applying the technique and the power in a living sparring context.


----------



## Knapf (Jul 8, 2017)

So your teacher's lineage is also related to CLC?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 8, 2017)

Knapf said:


> Is there anyone else currently doing Bak Mei? I would like to discuss more about Bak Mei


I don't do Bak Mei but there is some if it in the system that I train in.  A lot of what was done in that video from Pose #13 is found in Jow Ga.


----------



## Knapf (Jul 9, 2017)

Double post


----------



## Knapf (Jul 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't do Bak Mei but there is some if it in the system that I train in.  A lot of what was done in that video from Pose #13 is found in Jow Ga.


Interesting. According to the wikipedia article, Jow Ga is a combination of northern and southern kung fu.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 9, 2017)

Knapf said:


> Interesting. According to the wikipedia article, Jow Ga is a combination of northern and southern kung fu.


 In the future I want to train in one of the 3 systems that make up Jow Ga.  Choy Ga Pak Mei and Hung Ga.  Unfortunately I haven't found a Choy Ga school in Georgia so that leaves Pak Mei.   I think it would be a good learning experience for me to learn a little more about what makes up Jow Ga.


----------



## Knapf (Jul 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> In the future I want to train in one of the 3 systems that make up Jow Ga.  Choy Ga Pak Mei and Hung Ga.  Unfortunately I haven't found a Choy Ga school in Georgia so that leaves Pak Mei.   I think it would be a good learning experience for me to learn a little more about what makes up Jow Ga.


Happy learning. Bak Mei has a different way of generating power. I was a previous student of Hung Ga and instead of tightening up your breath while doing a hammer fist, in Bak Mei you have to hammer fist and release your breath outward. At least that's what I experienced. I hope I'm not misinforming anyone.


----------



## VPT (Jul 12, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> In the future I want to train in one of the 3 systems that make up Jow Ga.  Choy Ga Pak Mei and Hung Ga.  Unfortunately I haven't found a Choy Ga school in Georgia so that leaves Pak Mei.   I think it would be a good learning experience for me to learn a little more about what makes up Jow Ga.



When was Bakmei incorporated to Jow Ga? Because if Wikipedia is correct, the founder of Jow Ga died already before (1919) Jeung Lai Chyun started to teach BM, his original creation (1920s). This also answers Knapf's question: my lineage is by default connected to Jeung Lai Chyun, since the whole style was created and disseminated by him only.



Knapf said:


> Happy learning. Bak Mei has a different way of generating power. I was a previous student of Hung Ga and instead of tightening up your breath while doing a hammer fist, in Bak Mei you have to hammer fist and release your breath outward. At least that's what I experienced. I hope I'm not misinforming anyone.



Which technique are you referring to? There are two different hammerfists in BM: soi kiu, the 'bridge shattering strike'; and laan daa, the 'hugging strike'. My teacher, however, only talks about "using your body" in the technique to add power. He does not really emphasize breath in any way.


----------



## Knapf (Jul 12, 2017)

VPT said:


> Which technique are you referring to? There are two different hammerfists in BM: soi kiu, the 'bridge shattering strike'; and laan daa, the 'hugging strike'. My teacher, however, only talks about "using your body" in the technique to add power. He does not really emphasize breath in any way.


Soi kiu.


----------



## VPT (Jul 12, 2017)

Ah, I think exhalation helps to produce better sinking (cham) in soi kiu, I could never imagine holding my breath or tightening any muscle groups in it. How is the Hung kyun version in effect by comparison? I've never done any.

On the other hand, I exhale on pretty much every technique. That makes me wonder, when do I even inhale?...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 13, 2017)

VPT said:


> When was Bakmei incorporated to Jow Ga? Because if Wikipedia is correct, the founder of Jow Ga died already before (1919) Jeung Lai Chyun started to teach BM, his original creation (1920s). This also answers Knapf's question: my lineage is by default connected to Jeung Lai Chyun, since the whole style was created and disseminated by him only.


It would have to be incorporated later after Jow Lung's death by one of his 4 brothers.  Jow Ga USA, Jow Ga Australia, Jow Ga Vietnam and Jow Ga China have lineages that differ.  I think most Jow Ga styles are either from the Jow Biu lineage, Dean Chin lineage, and Jow Tin lineage.  The Jow Tin lineage is differs from the other 2 and I think somewhere around there the Bak Mei was added.  Originally  from Jow Lung, Jow Ga has Bak Siu Lam.  I think the Jow Ga from Vietnam has the Bak Mei in it.  There is no "Pure Jow Ga Kung fu" because each of the 5 brothers had a different approach to Jow Ga
This is a quote from one of the Australian Jow Ga schools.  5 tigers is reference to the 5 brothers "_Each of the 5 Tigers had a slightly different repertoire and interpretation of the Jow Ga style, bringing his own skills and experience to bear. Thus the practices of each Tiger’s lineage or branch lines can be seen to vary._" source: http://jowga.com.au/about-jow-ga/
Even within the U.S. there are 2 main lineages  Dean Chin and Derek Johnson.  For the most part they both look the same but there are some small but noticeable differences. Dean Chin (dead) added some Eagle Claw Kung fu (what I've heard) which wasn't in there originally.  Derek Johnson (still living) tries to get Jow Ga back to what was originally taught from Jow Biu (one of the 5 brothers). In Australia Andy Truong (living) has Bak Mei in his Jow Ga. I'm not sure but I want to say that I he comes from the Jow Tin lineage.  I think Jow Tin died in 1971

Here's a discussion from back in 2004 that mentions Bak Mei and that Dean Chin knew it.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?29347-Jow-ga-Forms-(JOW-PEOPLE)
By the way I can't verify any of the stuff on the kung fu magazine.  My Sigung may know more. I'll have to ask my Sifu to reach out to him to find out what's what.


----------



## Knapf (Jul 13, 2017)

VPT said:


> How is the Hung kyun version in effect by comparison? I've never done any.


Here's a video


----------



## VPT (Jul 15, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It would have to be incorporated later after Jow Lung's death by one of his 4 brothers.  Jow Ga USA, Jow Ga Australia, Jow Ga Vietnam and Jow Ga China have lineages that differ.  I think most Jow Ga styles are either from the Jow Biu lineage, Dean Chin lineage, and Jow Tin lineage.  The Jow Tin lineage is differs from the other 2 and I think somewhere around there the Bak Mei was added.  Originally  from Jow Lung, Jow Ga has Bak Siu Lam.  I think the Jow Ga from Vietnam has the Bak Mei in it.  There is no "Pure Jow Ga Kung fu" because each of the 5 brothers had a different approach to Jow Ga
> This is a quote from one of the Australian Jow Ga schools.  5 tigers is reference to the 5 brothers "_Each of the 5 Tigers had a slightly different repertoire and interpretation of the Jow Ga style, bringing his own skills and experience to bear. Thus the practices of each Tiger’s lineage or branch lines can be seen to vary._" source: http://jowga.com.au/about-jow-ga/
> Even within the U.S. there are 2 main lineages  Dean Chin and Derek Johnson.  For the most part they both look the same but there are some small but noticeable differences. Dean Chin (dead) added some Eagle Claw Kung fu (what I've heard) which wasn't in there originally.  Derek Johnson (still living) tries to get Jow Ga back to what was originally taught from Jow Biu (one of the 5 brothers). In Australia Andy Truong (living) has Bak Mei in his Jow Ga. I'm not sure but I want to say that I he comes from the Jow Tin lineage.  I think Jow Tin died in 1971
> 
> ...



I took off to investigate some of this, since it seemed to me very surprising that Jow Ga would've had Bak Mei in it in any kind of way. I should've been able to see it if there were, I thought. So this is what I found:

Dean Chin started learning martial arts at the age of seven, he started with Jow Ga when he was nine. In the thread you linked someone mentioned Chin having taught Sap Ji Kyun, the "Cross-Pattern Form" to his advanced students. Now, Sap Ji is often the first form taught to new students in Bak Mei and does not yet train any of the distinct Bak Mei power generation. Furthermore, it is not an "original" form in the style and was borrowed either from Lam Ga or Lei Ga, both of which Jeung Lai Chyun studied in his youth. I do not know whether he continued with Bak Mei after joining Jow Ga, but so far I've only heard an account of him teaching elementary material. Seeing his forms list might help with it.

Jow Ga in Vietnam then seems to be limited to Hanoi in Northern Vietnam. Bak Mei has only been introduced to Saigon in the Southern part of the country by one of Jeung Lai Chyun's early students. I have never heard of Bak Mei in Hanoi (but Wing Chun/Weng Chun, yes).

There is actually an example of mixing Bak Mei to other arts. Fatsan Bak Mei seems to be a hybrid of Choy Lee Fut hand techniques with Bak Mei stances and principles. The result is distinctly BM, but you also see lots of waving hands that are not typical. Below one of their original forms:





I'm not trying to debunk anything here, I'm just trying to figure out of what I know already and how does new information fit into it. If you can help me out with more tidbits of knowledge, I'd be happy. 

This is starting to stray from the topic of the thread, but how is Shaolinquan visible in Jow Ga? I have a friend who's been going to China for about ten years to train the old-style Shaolin boxing, and I'm hard-pressed to see commonalities with the two. However, Jow Ga has to forms that are identical to Shaolinquan in name: Siu Hung Kyun and Daai Hung Kyun exist in Shaolin, (the former is even their most important core form) but the Jow Ga versions are actually different forms than ones in Shaolin.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2017)

VPT said:


> I took off to investigate some of this, since it seemed to me very surprising that Jow Ga would've had Bak Mei in it in any kind of way. I should've been able to see it if there were, I thought. So this is what I found:
> 
> Dean Chin started learning martial arts at the age of seven, he started with Jow Ga when he was nine. In the thread you linked someone mentioned Chin having taught Sap Ji Kyun, the "Cross-Pattern Form" to his advanced students. Now, Sap Ji is often the first form taught to new students in Bak Mei and does not yet train any of the distinct Bak Mei power generation. Furthermore, it is not an "original" form in the style and was borrowed either from Lam Ga or Lei Ga, both of which Jeung Lai Chyun studied in his youth. I do not know whether he continued with Bak Mei after joining Jow Ga, but so far I've only heard an account of him teaching elementary material. Seeing his forms list might help with it.
> 
> ...


Thanks this is helpful information as well.  I'm waiting for a reply from my Sifu about the Bak Mei.  It may be that I've gotten a hold of some bad info about the Jow Ga having Bak Mei.  

For the Shaolin parts it's not the form that is similar it's the techniques.  I'll use this example of Bak Siu Lam and point out what I've seen in Jow Ga forms.  I know for sure without a doubt that that Bak Siu Lam is part of it.




:10 Elbow
:14 Kick and low crouch
:26 Double spear hand
:28 - :33 kicks
:41 drop scissors (forgive me for the lack of proper names. my wife is kicking me out of the room lol so she can sleep lol) But we roll with ours. 
The crescent and half moon kicks.

There's another video that I will post later gotta get out here.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 15, 2017)

Here's the second video.  This is from a Jow Ga Sifu in New York.  I don't know this form.  I think my school has a total of 18 forms and out of those 18 forms I only know 5 (7 if you count the 2 beginner forms that teach how to step and punch)





The thing about Jow Ga is that there is a lot of variation.  I can go to 3 different schools and each would have a different variation of Sei Ping Kuen, which for many schools is a beginner school.  In my first school, Flower fist looked was like the video below.  It was the first Jow Ga form I learned.  In the school I'm in now, Flower fist is not the first form and it looks nothing like this one.  You can see more of the Shaolin in this one.






Last one for the shaolin question


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 16, 2017)

Question about Bak Mei.   How do they drive their power for strikes?  Does it come from the center of the torso along with forward movement?


----------



## VPT (Jul 16, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks this is helpful information as well.  I'm waiting for a reply from my Sifu about the Bak Mei.  It may be that I've gotten a hold of some bad info about the Jow Ga having Bak Mei.
> 
> For the Shaolin parts it's not the form that is similar it's the techniques.  I'll use this example of Bak Siu Lam and point out what I've seen in Jow Ga forms.  I know for sure without a doubt that that Bak Siu Lam is part of it.



Ah, so there exists a school/style called "Northern Shaolin"  That is not in fact _Shaolinquan_ strictly speaking, but I find it more probable being incorporated to Jow Ga than the "Shaolin from Shaolin". I have a tendency to be skeptical about claimed backgrounds since it is quite confirmed that the official origin myths of at least Bak Mei and Lung Ying are highly embellished, if not straight up fabricated. It's hard to take things at face value.

I see there lots of generic Northern material in that video, but the guiding principles for movement are not "Shaolin from Shaolin". The hand techniques are also actually more from the likes I've seen in Mizong and Eagle Claw than Shaolinquan.

Oh, I also checked Andy Truong's training history: Jow Ga, Bak Mei and Lung Ying. All learned from different teachers in Australia. His Bak Mei seems to be of Saigon lineage judging by his teacher's name.  I'm curious if he's mixed the styles or kept them separate.



JowGaWolf said:


> Question about Bak Mei.   How do they drive their power for strikes?  Does it come from the center of the torso along with forward movement?



In Bak Mei we generate power with a sagittal arching of the spine. It is centered around the principle of sei biu, or "sink-float-swallow-spit": generating movement along the directions of up, down, out and in. Some people might call this kind of spinal power generation internal, but I don't personally care if it is or not, it is unarguably intricate at least. We first start learning this concept from the Jik Bou routine/exercise, but I have a good video for you. Here the guy takes away all the hand techniques and uses a cane as prop to emphasize the back-bow movement: 






I just wished he had a little better technique...


----------



## VPT (Jul 16, 2017)

Knapf said:


> Here's a video



Rather different! I was expecting a forward-facing stance, but it shows what I had the suspicion of: there is less visible sink, if any at all. Our soi kiu at least is also a more whip-like in execution.

I like Hung Ga nowadays way more than I did say two years ago, so I kinda "get" that they are also going for a different feel for their techniques than Bak Mei.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 16, 2017)

VPT said:


> I see there lots of generic Northern material in that video, but the guiding principles for movement are not "Shaolin from Shaolin".


  I wouldn't expect it to be exactly the same in Jow Ga, I would expect it to look generic.  If techniques are being integrated into a different system then the movement will change.  Similar to how one can recognize kung fu techniques in Japanese and TKD martial arts, but the movement for that technique is not the same.



VPT said:


> Oh, I also checked Andy Truong's training history: Jow Ga, Bak Mei and Lung Ying. All learned from different teachers in Australia. His Bak Mei seems to be of Saigon lineage judging by his teacher's name.  I'm curious if he's mixed the styles or kept them separate.


Your guess is as good as mine.  The variation is probably why my Sigung was / is on a mission to learn and teach Jow Ga without the variation that is often found in it.  He's known for trying to get Jow Ga "back to it's roots" after the discussion I've had with you and looking at the different schools doing Jow Ga.  I have a better appreciation for what my Sigung has been doing all these years.  To be honest, which ever school as the "purest" representation (s) of Jow Ga, should write a book to help keep the oral history straight.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 16, 2017)

VPT said:


> In Bak Mei we generate power with a sagittal arching of the spine. It is centered around the principle of sei biu, or "sink-float-swallow-spit": generating movement along the directions of up, down, out and in. Some people might call this kind of spinal power generation internal, but I don't personally care if it is or not, it is unarguably intricate at least. We first start learning this concept from the Jik Bou routine/exercise, but I have a good video for you. Here the guy takes away all the hand techniques and uses a cane as prop to emphasize the back-bow movement:
> 
> 
> 
> I just wished he had a little better technique...


The video looks like something that I use but wasn't taught in Jow Ga.  We have Qi Gong exercises in training and in our forms, that I've been able to make use of in real world fight application.  I don't know if it's similar but I can throw people around the room with a similar movement and I can jam punches and kicks as well.  I hold my arms with my elbows towards my center and I use a similar movement which shoots my arms forward with minimum effort.  Having my elbows to the center causes my center to "suck in" like in that video.  The forward movement causes me to expand, I haven't tried to do it with punches yet. I've always done it from a grappling perspective.


----------



## VPT (Jul 17, 2017)

Bak Mei uses the back action for generating inch power and sudden bursts of energy, be it pulling, jamming, slamming or pushing. In the below video from HK show "Sau Hang" they display zero-inch board breaking at 0:30 and 10:30:






It is possible to push people with that, but the goal would preferably be to get those punches sink into your opponent instead of displacing them. Holding your arms and hands close to the centerline helps, since it aligns them better with your center of gravity. The tight centerline guard is a featuristic of Hakka arts and gives them a distintive look from general Guangdong arts like CLF, Hung Ga and so on. 

My interpretation of utilizing inch power is in the idea of fighting strategy and bridging in Bak Mei. If Hung Ga wrestles with the bridge, Wing Chun rolls with it and Tong Long sticks to it, Bak Mei aims to break it upon contact. It seems like the arms would touch, but suddenly there comes a smash, vortex-like spiraling action, pull or a snatch. The distinct feel is called "scared power" because it looks like the sudden jump or twitch that you do involuntarily when being startled.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2017)

It doesn't look like I'm going to get an answer about Bak Mei in Jow Ga.  I asked my Sifu about it and he's not answering.  So all I know at this point is not ask again.  I was taking a look at some Bak Mei form application  videos and Bak Mei does have 1 technique that I've seen the other instructor do. The technique knocks a punch down in returns with an upper cut. The only difference is how it looks in form, in application the concept is the same.  Bak Mei seems to be a closer range of fighting.


----------



## VPT (Jul 21, 2017)

Is it this idea you are referring to?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2017)

VPT said:


> Is it this idea you are referring to?


Yes that is the exact video I was watching.  Our application of it slightly different, less spring with the downward strike on the arm.  We have more of a pop/chop which isn't as loose.  I guess a general difference is be one is an "Internal application" of the technique and the one I use is an "External application" of the technique.   I watched 2 of his videos and I hope to spend some time this weekend looking at some more.   The only think I didn't like with the video at the top is the distance in which he did the technique to address a jab coming from 5 miles out.  But other than that the concept is sound.  I use the same concept of "dropping and rising" in other techniques and either way it's dangerous.  It's one of those techniques that we take a lot of care and caution so we don't hurt our training partners.  In free sparring we already know that we have to pull it every time on the rising simply because it's damn near impossible to stop.  I literally can't figure out any counter that would work after the "dropping" is successful.  So we know if we get that part right that he second part is a piece of cake.

The same techniuqe that he used works really well with people who like to fight with a low guard like these guys.  With a low guard the jab to the face has to rise more than it would if the guard is high. 






In the video below at 2:49 is our beginner technique in Jow Ga.  The concept and hooking is the same.  The only difference is that we initially learn it as a beginner to deal with a jab. The other difference is we don't use the hooking hand to strike.  We maintain control with the hooking hand and blast with the freehand.  One hand pulls and at the same time the other hand strikes.  But the application is the same.  Hook the arm and punch.  In reality there's no rule to which hand we can use to punch with after we hook the arm.  As beginners we just learn it one way and as we understand the technique better, we start to learn different ways to apply it.  I like things like this because it helps me have a larger understanding of what I already know.  It also give me something to think about because I never considered trying to hook the inside of the arm as shown in the video. Below


----------



## VPT (Aug 3, 2017)

How we utilise the 'springing' idea is exactly as displayed in the video: break the opponent's structure to displace them, while using instant relaxation to reverse the movement, retaining and regenerating momentum to strike right back, most preferably using even the same hand that did the first movement.

I don't think our lineage uses that cutting/hooking technique in the way displayed. It' just kind of redundant since you could basically just grab the arm and pull/snatch, then punch again using the same principle as described above.

I guess this is _sorts of_ the principle you are referring to? Not exactly the same 1:1 I guess, but I chose to put up a clip with the most parsimony I could come up with. (14m 46s onward.)





See, here's the difference with Bak Mei and many other styles, including Jow Ga and even karate. The main principle to achieve above kind of effect is transversal movement, i.e. twisting action from waist, rotation of spine and shoulders plus all the other (body) parts. The pulling movement (towards one's side/waist) reinforces the punching movement, and it's a very sound, effective and reliable principle. Bak Mei does things somewhat differently, however. We learn _first _to pull/suck/swallow _in_ using sagittal flexion. That's our meat and potatoes, and only _after _we've got that down we add rotation from the hips and waist. That bow-unbow flexion-extension allows us to use the same hand in two techniques in quick succession. Learning and training these two things in conjunction is the core content of Gau Bou Tui, our "signature" form.

I'm not saying this is a better way; in fact, since it's intricate, hard to learn and unreliable for a long time before you can handle it, the transversal action might be even better (and that's why it's likely more common and widely spread). But ours can be... scary.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2017)

VPT said:


> How we utilise the 'springing' idea is exactly as displayed in the video: break the opponent's structure to displace them, while using instant relaxation to reverse the movement, retaining and regenerating momentum to strike right back, most preferably using even the same hand that did the first movement.
> 
> I don't think our lineage uses that cutting/hooking technique in the way displayed. It' just kind of redundant since you could basically just grab the arm and pull/snatch, then punch again using the same principle as described above.
> 
> ...


Update from my Sifu.  There's no Bak Mei in Jow Ga.   I was told to focus on the differences and not the similarities between the 2 systems.   I haven't been able to watch the entire video that you posted, but can't help to notice the similarities in some of the techniques.  My guess that the similarities that I'm seeing are probably from the same source. 

The technique at 31:20  is a similar technique that we use, but we use it from a punch.  In reality the punch, or palm up is insignificant because the technique it self is to counter /prevent someone from securing a grab.  From what I've seen so far it looks like I'll get a chance to learn some more applications for techniques that I already know which is awesome.  The technique at 14:46  looks just like what we do except we aren't taught to grab.  It doesn't mean that we can't or that it's wrong to do so,  it just means that we aren't taught that way.   14:46 looks like a different application of the technique that we use.  For us that one technique is taught as 2 separate techniques.  The first is technique is to break the grab and it follows with a different combination.  The second technique which is the grab and punch is something that we train separately.  I never thought about putting those techniques together.. Awesome  thanks.


----------



## bak_mei_jr (Dec 10, 2017)

VPT said:


> Is it this idea you are referring to?


Hi.  This video seems to suggest chum kiu is a specific move.  Chum is actually a concept (kinda like a sinking energy) used to generate power at close range and very critical to Bak Mei.  Unfortunately this happens a lot in traditional styles where the concepts or principles of a system are taught as specific moves - the twelve bridge hands of Hung Ga are notorious for this.


----------



## VPT (Dec 11, 2017)

bak_mei_jr said:


> Hi.  This video seems to suggest chum kiu is a specific move.  Chum is actually a concept (kinda like a sinking energy) used to generate power at close range and very critical to Bak Mei.  Unfortunately this happens a lot in traditional styles where the concepts or principles of a system are taught as specific moves - the twelve bridge hands of Hung Ga are notorious for this.



Fau-Cam-Tan-Tou is ubiquitous in Hakka and Fujian arts and not limited to Bak Mei only. AFAIK, his lineage simply calls the last technique from the sequence after the first three Mo kiu "Cam kiu". (3x Mo kiu - Sook sau - Bui kim - Cam kiu) I do there simply just another Sook sau, but it's not really a biggie.


----------

