# Is there much empty hand technique in Ninjitsu? If so whats it like?



## cpthindsight (Apr 22, 2015)

Is it like Karate or jujitsu?

Is ninjitsu basically dead or have the techniques been preserved well?


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## Drose427 (Apr 22, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Is it like Karate or jujitsu?
> 
> Is ninjitsu basically dead or have the techniques been preserved well?



The one Ninjitsu guy Ive met moved nothing like Karate, he had some grappling that probably come from JJJ but idk where the grappling/strikes in Ninjitsu come from so i cant say for sure.

I simply dont know enough about the history of the two and how they played into each other

His empty hands were just fine, and he was quicker than the MT guys that were at the tournament.

But ive been told his methods didnt sound like normal Ninjitsu here, 

Chris Parker will probably have a good bit to say about this, he know his stuff. But it may be a bit before he responds.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 23, 2015)

Depends on what you mean by "ninjutsu."

If you are referring to arts practiced by folks like the late Ron Duncan, they are modern creations with no actual link to historical ninjutsu. (Despite claims to the contrary by their practitioners.) As such they contain unarmed elements from whatever arts their founder had previously practiced - typically some form of karate, judo or aikido.

If you are referring to the arts practiced within the Bujinkan and its various offshoots (Genbukan, Jinenkan, Akban, etc), then it gets a bit more complicated. These organizations teach a curriculum made up from 9 different arts which can be traced back to Toshitsugu Takamatsu. Of those 9 arts, 3 are identified as forms of ninjutsu. Also, of those 9 arts, 3 can be historically verified as going back further than Takamatsu. _However_ the 3 that are verified historical arts are _not_ the 3 ninjutsu traditions.

Does that mean that Takamatsu made up the 6 remaining lineages (including the ninjutsu traditions)? Not necessarily. We can be fairly sure that the claimed history of these arts has been exaggerated. Togakure Ryu is almost certainly not 800 years old. Still, such exaggeration is not unheard of in historical arts. The best we can say is that the Takamatsuden arts may or may not have some connection to historical ninjutsu.

Despite the fact that the ninjutsu arts (even if historically legitimate) only make up 3 out of the 9 Takamatsuden arts, the system as a whole was for a while marketed as "ninjutsu" and some practitioners still use the name to describe what they practice. The Takamatsuden arts do include quite a bit of unarmed combat techniques, both striking and grappling. Chris Parker could tell you which techniques actually derive from one of the claimed ninjutsu lineages vs one of the other traditions.

Here are some examples:


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## cpthindsight (Apr 23, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Depends on what you mean by "ninjutsu."
> 
> If you are referring to arts practiced by folks like the late Ron Duncan, they are modern creations with no actual link to historical ninjutsu. (Despite claims to the contrary by their practitioners.) As such they contain unarmed elements from whatever arts their founder had previously practiced - typically some form of karate, judo or aikido.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the excellent answer, so basically ninjutsu is dead. Watered down technique form years ago that doesn't even = the authentic ninjitsu doesnt count.


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## elder999 (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Thanks for the excellent answer, so basically ninjutsu is dead. Watered down technique form years ago that doesn't even = the authentic ninjitsu doesnt count.


Oooh, boy.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 23, 2015)

Like Elder999 I do not even know where to go with this after your last response!


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## Drose427 (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Thanks for the excellent answer, so basically ninjutsu is dead. Watered down technique form years ago that doesn't even = the authentic ninjitsu doesnt count.



Thats really not what tony said...


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 23, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Thanks for the excellent answer, so basically ninjutsu is dead. Watered down technique form years ago that doesn't even = the authentic ninjitsu doesnt count.


Well, that's not at all what I said, but whatever makes you happy.


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## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2015)

My daughter bought me a popcorn maker, it's switched on....................  going to enjoy this one.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well, that's not at all what I said, but whatever makes you happy.



He or she (not sure which) is a young kid who is simply being a troll...that is all... every post is basically the same.... don't feed the troll


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## Drose427 (Apr 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> My daughter bought me a popcorn maker, it's switched on....................  going to enjoy this one.



Wheres Chris Parker when we need him most?!


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## Chris Parker (Apr 24, 2015)

Watching Avengers… but, as the OP is banned now, I'll only enter if others are after more answers…


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2015)

Oh well, as that's the case can anyone tell me how to flavour the popcorn after it's made please?


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## K-man (Apr 24, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Oh well, as that's the case can anyone tell me how to flavour the popcorn after it's made please?


Butter will do that.


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## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2015)

K-man said:


> Butter will do that.




Cheers! I will have to make some to make up for the disappointment of not reading a good rebuttal by Chris. Always like a good rebuttal!


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## Hanzou (Apr 24, 2015)

cpthindsight said:


> Is it like Karate or jujitsu?
> 
> Is ninjitsu basically dead or have the techniques been preserved well?



It definitely isn't dead, since there's people practicing it, and adding things to it. 

As for being watered down, I will say that some major organizations pumping out 15 degree black belts isn't a very promising sign. Also, some of the grappling I've seen has been..... questionable.

That said, the in-fighting within the art is legendary, and will reach critical mass when Hatsumi retires or dies.


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## chris66 (Jun 23, 2015)

I can recommend Uechi Ryu Karate if you want good hand techniques.


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## GiYu - Todd (Sep 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> We can be fairly sure that the claimed history of these arts has been exaggerated. Togakure Ryu is almost certainly not 800 years old. Still, such exaggeration is not unheard of in historical arts. The best we can say is that the Takamatsuden arts may or may not have some connection to historical ninjutsu.


I think historical exaggerations have been around as long as martial arts. 
If Bob, down the street, dabbled in a couple arts over the years.  Then decided he knows better and creates his own martial art, it's unlikely many students would train if they knew he made it all up and gave himself his 11th dan.  So he "stretches the truth" a bit, to make it sound legitimate and keep people training.  He'll say the origins are hundreds of years old, and he's just updated it a little.  If any of those students continue the "art", the stories pass down and get exaggerated too.  It's possible, Bob-do will become legendary in the future.
Hundreds of years ago, when many of our original arts were created, I'm sure something similar happened.  The founders of each may have been amazingly skilled fighters... or someone like Bob.  Hard to say anymore.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 17, 2015)

GiYu - Todd said:


> I think historical exaggerations have been around as long as martial arts.
> If Bob, down the street, dabbled in a couple arts over the years.  Then decided he knows better and creates his own martial art, it's unlikely many students would train if they knew he made it all up and gave himself his 11th dan.  So he "stretches the truth" a bit, to make it sound legitimate and keep people training.  He'll say the origins are hundreds of years old, and he's just updated it a little.  If any of those students continue the "art", the stories pass down and get exaggerated too.  It's possible, Bob-do will become legendary in the future.
> Hundreds of years ago, when many of our original arts were created, I'm sure something similar happened.  The founders of each may have been amazingly skilled fighters... or someone like Bob.  Hard to say anymore.


Yep, just about every art I've ever trained in has had been rife with historical myths - exaggerations, spin, and outright fabrications - and that's just what I've been able to discover through amateur research over the years. If I had a time machine to go back and check the stories that are told, I'm sure I'd find a lot more.

It's not hugely important from a practical application standpoint, but I like to learn as much of the real history as possible,

BTW - I took a look at your website. I recognize a couple of the instructors from years past. I knew Jaye Sandhu from when were both training under Shawn Havens, Larry Turner, et al in the late 80s. I know Sam Foster from the SCA, although I think I had moved away from training in the Bujinkan before he started.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

GiYu - Todd said:


> I think historical exaggerations have been around as long as martial arts.
> If Bob, down the street, dabbled in a couple arts over the years.  Then decided he knows better and creates his own martial art, it's unlikely many students would train if they knew he made it all up and gave himself his 11th dan.  So he "stretches the truth" a bit, to make it sound legitimate and keep people training.  He'll say the origins are hundreds of years old, and he's just updated it a little.  If any of those students continue the "art", the stories pass down and get exaggerated too.  It's possible, Bob-do will become legendary in the future.



Hmm… that's a bit different to what's being discussed, though… 



GiYu - Todd said:


> Hundreds of years ago, when many of our original arts were created,



… were they?



GiYu - Todd said:


> I'm sure something similar happened.



See, I'm less convinced that anything like "Bob" happened the way you described above… as, if it did, then "Bob" was named Takamatsu Toshitsugu… for the record… 



GiYu - Todd said:


> The founders of each may have been amazingly skilled fighters... or someone like Bob.  Hard to say anymore.



Eh, not so hard when you understand the surrounding contexts… 



Tony Dismukes said:


> It's not hugely important from a practical application standpoint, but I like to learn as much of the real history as possible,



This, I'd disagree with… particularly when it comes to classical arts, I find that it's very difficult to grasp the (intended) application without having a good understanding of the history (claimed or otherwise).


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## GiYu - Todd (Sep 24, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> BTW - I took a look at your website. I recognize a couple of the instructors from years past. I knew Jaye Sandhu from when were both training under Shawn Havens, Larry Turner, et al in the late 80s. I know Sam Foster from the SCA, although I think I had moved away from training in the Bujinkan before he started.


Jaye and Sam are both training regularly.  I've only been there 6 years, so I never met Larry or Shawn.  Interestingly, a co-worker of mine was dating Peggy and ended up moving to Colorado when he retired about a year ago. 
If you're ever up this way, stop in for a visit.  Let me know ahead of time and I'll try to get Jaye and/or Sam to be there.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2015)

GiYu - Todd said:


> Jaye and Sam are both training regularly.  I've only been there 6 years, so I never met Larry or Shawn.  Interestingly, a co-worker of mine was dating Peggy and ended up moving to Colorado when he retired about a year ago.
> If you're ever up this way, stop in for a visit.  Let me know ahead of time and I'll try to get Jaye and/or Sam to be there.


I'm actually up in Dayton most Saturday afternoons, but it doesn't look like you have classes then.


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## GiYu - Todd (Sep 24, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm actually up in Dayton most Saturday afternoons, but it doesn't look like you have classes then.


 We have a saturday morning weapons class from 8:45-10a.  Perhaps you could come up early sometime.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2015)

GiYu - Todd said:


> We have a saturday morning weapons class from 8:45-10a.  Perhaps you could come up early sometime.


It's a 2&1/2 hour drive for me, so that would involve getting out of the house by 6:00 am. I am not a morning person.


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## GiYu - Todd (Sep 24, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's a 2&1/2 hour drive for me, so that would involve getting out of the house by 6:00 am. I am not a morning person.


 I'm not a morning person either.  Consider the invitation open... whenever you happen to be able to make it.


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