# Shame on you.... for misrepresenting yourself.... and your ability.



## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight.   Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training.    Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.    

You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general.   You learn respect and honor.   You treat others with kindness.   You evolve and usually become a better person.

So I ask this question.   If you were not a contractor and you hired someone to build an addition on your house.. who you thought they knew what they were doing.   And later found out that you got ripped off and paid tons of money to find out it was all done wrong.    Or if you hired someone to fix your car and to just find that it was worse.      How would you feel?

This happens in the martial arts.   People misrepresent themselves.   And well I have an issue with that.    If you say you are a Master, a Sifu, a Guru, etc.    Then dammit.... be that.    Do not lie and say you are if your Sensei or instructor would have never awarded you the Certificate to teach.   Do not claim to be what you are not.
Also people who pay for some certificate from a online place is a scam also.   Obviously they also have no moral in misrepresenting themselves.    I have seen people in my area pay hundreds of dollars to an organization so that they can they are certified by that organization.   Even when the instructor has long been dead.   Just cause the spouse of the instructor finds it as a source of income to do mail order Certificates.    Suddenly someone who has become an Instructor of art X over night.    Come on.   Now most people training in the arts will see this as for what it is.   But for the young child who is becoming a student and their parents who is paying good money and time and effort to get their child there should get what they paid for.   Not a scam.   This is disgraceful.     And ultimately it's the downfall that is causing people to shy away from training.   Esp. in the traditional arts. 

Disclaimer.....  I am not saying that a piece of paper will make you a good fighter.   I know a lot of people who are great fighters...  without that piece of paper.    But if you are teaching and claiming that you are an instructor of that art... then you should have the blessing from the instructor that you trained with for years.  Not someone who gives you a certificate as a favor.   If your instructor felt you were good enough and understood the art... they would have given your the Certificate and blessing.   And would have been proud to have you represent them in the art as a certified teacher.   If they did not... then it is clear there was a reason they did not.   Most instructors will have you assist or teach classes under them.   Helping you become an instructor.   Again... if they did not do this... it's a problem in my eyes.    

I was saddened to see some people on this forum advocate for someone else to actually forge a certificate.  This is a problem.   You greatly diminish the public's respect to martial arts if you falsely represent your ability.   This is just wrong.   

Now without naming the person....  I will say that I know of the persons ability.   And their level of expertise.   And understand why their past instructor did not certify them.   I have heard numerous counts of this person in the area and their misrepresenting themselves.    Even recently I had a new student come from another school.   And there is lots of stories about this persons expertise... or lack of and what is going on.    This person's name has come back to me over and over from various instructors.  

Now one can stop an individual from misrepresenting themselves to the public.  You would have hoped that your training in martial arts gave you more code of conduct as a martial arts and a human to do such.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2019)

Why do I feel like I know who  you are talking about, both the person who got certified and the person who gave the certification


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## skribs (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight.   Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training.    Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.
> 
> You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general.   You learn respect and honor.   You treat others with kindness.   You evolve and usually become a better person.
> 
> ...



This is a long rant for no context.  Why didn't you make this post as a reply to the post you're discussing?


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## jobo (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight.   Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training.    Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.
> 
> You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general.   You learn respect and honor.   You treat others with kindness.   You evolve and usually become a better person.
> 
> ...


hang on, if you pay to learn a martial art and someone teaches you a ma how have you been ripped off?


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## wanderingstudent (Feb 1, 2019)

When someone comes along and provides a way to measure your ability vs theirs, and you quickly realize you've just been waving your arms in the air; the whole time.  But, at least now you have something to measure against; and know.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

jobo said:


> hang on, if you pay to learn a martial art and someone teaches you a ma how have you been ripped off?



If the individual actually teaches you something that is useful and I don't mean conceptually thought up...and never tested.   But something that will actually help you...   Then you paid for some martial arts training.    If on the same hand the person said they were certified to teach Kenpo Karate lets say... and produces a fake cert.... or says they are...  Then yes... you learned something from them... that still is something that you are able to apply.   But in the same respect you were ripped off and misrepresented.

It's like having work done on your house.   If the person says they are a licensed electrician and they do the work... and it short circuits or causes a fire...   Dammm you were really ripped off.   Even if it works.... you were still ripped off cause you thought it was a licensed electrician.    

My point is about misrepresentation.    Like my disclaimer said... the paper does not mean you know what you are doing.  You can still be skilled without it.    Or you can be without the paper... without the skill... know it and still rip people off.   And that is what I see happening.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

wanderingstudent said:


> When someone comes along and provides a way to measure your ability vs theirs, and you quickly realize you've just been waving your arms in the air; the whole time.  But, at least now you have something to measure against; and know.



Yeah...  I have come across people who said they trained for several years in an art.... and then when tested with someone outside of their school.... in a friendly manner... they knew that they didn't know what they thought they knew.   And felt ripped off.


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## jobo (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> If the individual actually teaches you something that is useful and I don't mean conceptually thought up...and never tested.   But something that will actually help you...   Then you paid for some martial arts training.    If on the same hand the person said they were certified to teach Kenpo Karate lets say... and produces a fake cert.... or says they are...  Then yes... you learned something from them... that still is something that you are able to apply.   But in the same respect you were ripped off and misrepresented.
> 
> It's like having work done on your house.   If the person says they are a licensed electrician and they do the work... and it short circuits or causes a fire...   Dammm you were really ripped off.   Even if it works.... you were still ripped off cause you thought it was a licensed electrician.
> 
> My point is about misrepresentation.    Like my disclaimer said... the paper does not mean you know what you are doing.  You can still be skilled without it.    Or you can be without the paper... without the skill... know it and still rip people off.   And that is what I see happening.


But it's a bigger question than that, lot of properly cert oeipkee teach a ma that is no use, for actually fighting, arnt they ripping people of as well,?


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

jobo said:


> But it's a bigger question than that, lot of properly cert oeipkee teach a ma that is no use, for actually fighting, arnt they ripping people of as well,?



No disrespect.... 
But the topic was Misrepresenting yourself....(be it a false piece of paper or ability)....

So Jobo... to answer your question in my opinion.... for what it's worth...    
What is someone walking in the door to begin with.   Are they learning for the sake of just learning the art.?   Are they asking to learn the art to protect themselves.?   What is the reason?   Are they asking to get in shape via the art?   What is their intent?  And if the instructor says yes.... this art will give you self defense... and it really doesn't... then again... they are misrepresenting what they teach and themselves.   It's a rip off.      

All misrepresentation.   Instructors should be clear on their ability, their level of certification if any, and what the student can expect out of the training.   If they are not doing this... it's misrepresentation.   And hence.... shame on them for doing it.


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## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2019)

Everyone joins an MA for different reasons. Fighting/SD is one of them, but IMO it’s less and less of a priority as time goes by. Not even as time goes by for the student, but more and more people come in with less of a priority to defend themselves over the years. 

Regarding misrepresentation, some of that is true. But there’s quite a few who genuinely bought into what they were taught and saw it work in class, so they “know” it works. MAists don’t work out with people outside their school much anymore. They don’t test those things against others. So the guy (hypothetical guy) teaches what he knows and accepts. He’s not misrepresenting anything. Delusions of grandeur perhaps, but if he’s not knowingly and intentionally selling BS, it’s pretty hard to call him a fraud. Idiot, yes; fraud, no.


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## jobo (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> No disrespect....
> But the topic was Misrepresenting yourself....(be it a false piece of paper or ability)....
> 
> So Jobo... to answer your question in my opinion.... for what it's worth...
> ...


So ok, I go to a guy who is not misrepresenting himself , I ask if it's good for SD, he says yes, I sign up and train hard, then I'm attacked and beaten up, he ripped me off didn't he, it's clearly no good for sd,


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2019)

jobo said:


> So ok, I go to a guy who is not misrepresenting himself , I ask if it's good for SD, he says yes, I sign up and train hard, then I'm attacked and beaten up, he ripped me off didn't he, it's clearly no good for sd,



Or maybe you just suck. 
Or maybe you were fighting with your beer muscles.
Or maybe you got sucker punched.
Or maybe the other person has more training.
Or maybe the other person was gifted with genes that made them a little faster than you, or have a little better balance, etc.
Or maybe training in Dillmans no-touch knockout wasn't a good choice.

It's way too complicated to draw simple conclusions, especially from a single example.


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## skribs (Feb 1, 2019)

Not all arts or schools give a certificate.  What do you do if you learned from a school which did not give certificates, but due to campus bylaws or zoning regulations, you must be certified in order to teach in the area you want to teach?


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

jobo said:


> So ok, I go to a guy who is not misrepresenting himself , I ask if it's good for SD, he says yes, I sign up and train hard, then I'm attacked and beaten up, he ripped me off didn't he, it's clearly no good for sd,



Agree...
He totally is


JR 137 said:


> Everyone joins an MA for different reasons. Fighting/SD is one of them, but IMO it’s less and less of a priority as time goes by. Not even as time goes by for the student, but more and more people come in with less of a priority to defend themselves over the years.
> 
> Regarding misrepresentation, some of that is true. But there’s quite a few who genuinely bought into what they were taught and saw it work in class, so they “know” it works. MAists don’t work out with people outside their school much anymore. They don’t test those things against others. So the guy (hypothetical guy) teaches what he knows and accepts. He’s not misrepresenting anything. Delusions of grandeur perhaps, but if he’s not knowingly and intentionally selling BS, it’s pretty hard to call him a fraud. Idiot, yes; fraud, no.



What do you think about someone who claims to be a teacher and is not...   Is delusional about their ability.   Goes somewhere(other school).... and gets their butt handed to them in a sparring situation by some students who has only trained a year.   YET..... they still claim they are an instructor.... and wishes to create false papers saying they are...  and poses they are??


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> Not all arts or schools give a certificate.  What do you do if you learned from a school which did not give certificates, but due to campus bylaws or zoning regulations, you must be certified in order to teach in the area you want to teach?



I never heard that is a teacher is not allowed to give certifications due to any laws...    I am not aware of this in the States.....


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

jobo said:


> So ok, I go to a guy who is not misrepresenting himself , I ask if it's good for SD, he says yes, I sign up and train hard, then I'm attacked and beaten up, he ripped me off didn't he, it's clearly no good for sd,



Like JR said....  Then he is delusional in his own ego of what he thinks of himself.   As any martial artist should probably do.... is go and train with others outside your school.   If you are studying an art that does striking... don't just test your anti-grappling answers against a fellow student who is playing the part of a grappler.    Go test it in a grappling school.  And vice versa.     A instructor should not be fixed within a box of their own art in my opinion.   You should test what you teach.


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## skribs (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> I never heard that is a teacher is not allowed to give certifications due to any laws...    I am not aware of this in the States.....



You misread my post.


Person goes to a school that does not give certifications, because the teacher simply doesn't believe in them (especially if the school doesn't have "ranks").  So you've taken ten years of training at this school, but you have no physical evidence of your time there.
Person then wants to teach at a school.  The school's bylaws require that you have a certificate in order to teach something.  (You don't want some random person who watched a bunch of vSauce and Because Science videos to be your Physics Professor).  So you need to prove to the school board that you have the experience in the art, but you don't have that physical proof.
I'm not saying a school isn't allowed to give a certificate.  I'm saying if you never got a certificate for your learning, but you require a certificate to teach, then what do you do?


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

Clearly.... intentional misrepresenting who you are and your abilities is what I am saying is shameful.
There is other cases where you are delusional....  And even soooo..  It is not intentional.. 
It instead shows a lack of due diligence to yourself and your students to make sure that what your teaching is valid.    Test it in your school.... test it with others outside your school.   

If you are saying you are something your are not... then you are misrepresenting yourself..   If you are presented with evidence of your delusional thoughts on your ability.... and continue.... you are a fraud and again misrepresenting what you are and what you are teaching.

There are people paying for certificates and yet have never stepped on the mats.   What?  Really?   Are people defending this action.?   Are people defending the act of falsely creating certifications?

Wow...  
What has the martial arts become.?


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> What do you think about someone who claims to be a teacher and is not...   Is delusional about their ability.   Goes somewhere(other school).... and gets their butt handed to them in a sparring situation by some students who has only trained a year.   YET..... they still claim they are an instructor.... and wishes to create false papers saying they are...  and poses they are??



Rubbish. My KJN is 76 years old. I've got any number of 1 year students who could no doubt beat him sparring.

Doesn't change how much he knows, nor does it affect his ability to pass that knowledge on.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> You misread my post.
> 
> 
> Person goes to a school that does not give certifications, because the teacher simply doesn't believe in them (especially if the school doesn't have "ranks").  So you've taken ten years of training at this school, but you have no physical evidence of your time there.
> ...



Yes.  That's a lot more clear.
And now I also understand a little more.   Since I see you were part of the original post.... and you offered some good suggestions.

So... yes... some people are going to require you to show proof of what you are saying... and they require it.
1.    The school he trained in does rank and has given blessings etc... to students that have trained.  So that is not the situation.
       Another case in my area is that some people outright bought certifications without any training in the art.  

2.    If that person wants to teach somewhere that requires it... go and get it.  Go to another school and demonstrate skill and        knowledge and acquire it under them.    Absolutely an answer... Then you can teach at the location that requires proof.

3.   You other option... go teach elsewhere that doesn't require it.   Sure...  but do not say you are a sifu.   Do not misrepresent yourself.     Do not go and buy a paper or lie to people saying your are a teacher... or mislead people.   That is dishonest.

4.  Your last option is perfect...   It's being totally honest what you are doing.  

Your cut suggestions below.
************************************************************************
Off the top of my head, here are 3 ideas:


If your lineage has a letterhead, ask someone well respected in your lineage to draft a certificate for you with a rank like Instructor, Chief Instructor, or Master (depending on what you feel is appropriate for your level). Explain to them it's merely a formality to satisfy requirements at the location you wish to teach. 


Find a different college with more lax requirements, or who may be willing to discuss with you and understand there aren't ranks in your art.


Find a location to teach that isn't at a college. Lots of gyms will have areas you can rent for classes. The advantage here is that your students can get a workout at the same location if they want.
************************************************************************


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Rubbish. My KJN is 76 years old. I've got any number of 1 year students who could no doubt beat him sparring.
> 
> Doesn't change how much he knows, nor does it affect his ability to pass that knowledge on.


And I am sure your 1 year students would not misrepresent themselves as an instructor...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2019)

I have a slightly different take on what the OP Posted

I think it is specifically about those who claim to be something they are not based on certs that for all intents and purposes that they bought. They are misrepresenting themselves based on a meaningless certificate they got from a non-reputable source. And there is no way for many new students to know this and if they stay it simply adds to the destruction of the style. This is, IMO, robbing the student.

There are, most unfortunately, those who trained hard in a specific style and got all the belts and worked there way up but they simply do not get it, but they have been awarded belts based on their year long contracts and time in school.... but most certainly not on their level of skill.

Or the head teacher is rather skilled, but no longer wishes to teach, so he promotes some of his students to teach, but those students are sub-par....saw this in a Hapkido school once and it was rather sad to see. The head instructor had an impressive background and was awarded his rather high rank in Korea, but the student that were learning form his senior student had no idea how to throw a proper kick. The head instructor just sat and watched, and collected the checks

There are teacher who are great marital artists, but horrible teachers

There are teacher who are highly skilled and well trained but age is catching up with them. In this case what matters it the skill and knowledge they have that they pass on to others.

There are also good teachers that train their students well.


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## skribs (Feb 1, 2019)

So we are talking about that post!  So this isn't a case of someone fraudulently stating their credentials.  It's just getting a piece of paper to meet a requirement.


Verbal blessings yes, written blessings no.  You've learned, but not gotten the piece of paper.
And by the time you join that school, pay them a bunch of money, and spend years learning THEIR curriculum, the job opening you were trying to take isn't there anymore, and you still are not qualified to teach the art you wanted to teach.
Um...what?  How does this even apply to the situation we're talking about.  Let's say I spent 10 years training a style of Kung Fu that has no ranks or certificates.  I can't teach Kung Fu at a college because there's no certificate.  But I can open my own school and teach Kung Fu.  It's not like I trained Kung Fu for 10 years and then wanted to go open up a Judo school.
The entire post you're referencing wasn't talking about someone taking 3 Kung Fu classes and then trying to buy a certificate that says they're a 5th degree black belt.  It was about someone with a lot of experience in a rankless art, trying to teach the art at a place where they require a certificate.


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## skribs (Feb 1, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have a slightly different take on what the OP Posted
> 
> I think it is specifically about those who claim to be something they are not based on certs that for all intents and purposes that they bought. They are misrepresenting themselves based on a meaningless certificate they got from a non-reputable source. And there is no way for many new students to know this and if they stay it simply adds to the destruction of the style. This is, IMO, robbing the student.
> 
> ...



Based on the comments he made to me in this thread, he's talking about a post a while back where someone had training in an art, and wanted to apply at a university, but the university required him to have a paper certificate that proves he was qualified to teach the art.  The problem isn't that he wasn't qualified - it's that he had no paper to prove it.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> And I am sure your 1 year students would not misrepresent themselves as an instructor...



Of course not. But your premise was that somehow, an instructor who loses a sparring match is no longer qualified to be an instructor.
And that's just rubbish.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> Based on the comments he made to me in this thread, he's talking about a post a while back where someone had training in an art, and wanted to apply at a university, but the university required him to have a paper certificate that proves he was qualified to teach the art.  The problem isn't that he wasn't qualified - it's that he had no paper to prove it.



I know the situation and I know who the OP is talking and I know the teachers of the person the OP  is talking about.....and all I have to say is I agree with the OP


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> Based on the comments he made to me in this thread, he's talking about a post a while back where someone had training in an art, and wanted to apply at a university, but the university required him to have a paper certificate that proves he was qualified to teach the art.  The problem isn't that he wasn't qualified - it's that he had no paper to prove it.



My original post was actually pertaining to several people.

The post you are talking about... from the past.
The problem skrib is that he isn't qualified...   I know for a fact.   I know his Sifu.   So I am saying he misrepresented himself here also.


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## skribs (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> My original post was actually pertaining to several people.
> 
> The post you are talking about... from the past.
> The problem skrib is that he isn't qualified...   I know for a fact.   I know his Sifu.   So I am saying he misrepresented himself here also.



In that case I'd bring it up in the thread you're talking about.  Although I'm not sure how that meshes with the fraud-busting rules on this forum.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course not. But your premise was that somehow, an instructor who loses a sparring match is no longer qualified to be an instructor.
> And that's just rubbish.



Sir,
My original premise is about misrepresenting oneself.       The individual did just that.    He is not an instructor.  Presents himself as one.
Also delusional in their ability.... lost sparring against people with less than one year training.    And continued to misrepresent his ability and himself as an instructor.

I have seen this in other spots also.

And I totally agree.    I am not saying if an instructor loses a sparring match he is not qualified to teach.   Definitely not saying that.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> In that case I'd bring it up in the thread you're talking about.  Although I'm not sure how that meshes with the fraud-busting rules on this forum.



Skribs...   
I don't care too.   
I didn't relate it back to that post because I have noticed it in many regards.     Several individuals in my area that are misrepresenting themselves to the public.   It's a problem in Martial Arts.  Esp. in my area.   The public goes in believing the "instructor" of the school.  They have no basis to judge.   They most of the time lack any training themselves...   So how can they judge.    So this is really a GENERAL problem happening.   People saying they are what they are not.   And I do not wish to single anyone out.   Hence I posted it general as not to reflect on any one individual.    In General I have seen people purchase certificates, falsely say they are something that they are not.  And it goes unchecked.   And there is not any governing body to hold anyone accountable.   It's a shame...   I let it go locally.   There is nothing that I could or want to do about it.   

I bring it up here... because I thought it would hold for an interesting conversation where Martial Arts is headed.   Many people depend on it's reputation to make a living.   Thankfully I do not.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2019)

If you're talking about individuals, then you're about to run afoul of the fraud busting rules here. If you talking about generalities, then what you're saying is, as I said, rubbish. Plenty of good instructors can no longer fight. I fancy I'm a decent instructor, and I certainly cannot spar the way I did 30 years ago.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2019)

Well this went bad fast and a lot of folks took it personally......



Dirty Dog said:


> If you're talking about individuals, then you're about to run afoul of the fraud busting rules here. If you talking about generalities, then what you're saying is, as I said, rubbish. Plenty of good instructors can no longer fight. I fancy I'm a decent instructor, and I certainly cannot spar the way I did 30 years ago.



If there is anyone running afoul here it would me skribs and myself since we both related it to an individual who we did not name. the OP was posting a generalization

You know between Korean martial arts historian experts that seem to be able to run rampant here...and...well nuff said

Y'all have fun storming the castle, I'm taking a break from here for a day or so.....and contemplating on whether Dale Dugas was right


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you're talking about individuals, then you're about to run afoul of the fraud busting rules here. If you talking about generalities, then what you're saying is, as I said, rubbish. Plenty of good instructors can no longer fight. I fancy I'm a decent instructor, and I certainly cannot spar the way I did 30 years ago.



Yeah.... 
I am not the same person I was 30 years ago either!!!!


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## drop bear (Feb 1, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone joins an MA for different reasons. Fighting/SD is one of them, but IMO it’s less and less of a priority as time goes by. Not even as time goes by for the student, but more and more people come in with less of a priority to defend themselves over the years.
> 
> Regarding misrepresentation, some of that is true. But there’s quite a few who genuinely bought into what they were taught and saw it work in class, so they “know” it works. MAists don’t work out with people outside their school much anymore. They don’t test those things against others. So the guy (hypothetical guy) teaches what he knows and accepts. He’s not misrepresenting anything. Delusions of grandeur perhaps, but if he’s not knowingly and intentionally selling BS, it’s pretty hard to call him a fraud. Idiot, yes; fraud, no.



No I think you can be both.


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## drop bear (Feb 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Rubbish. My KJN is 76 years old. I've got any number of 1 year students who could no doubt beat him sparring.
> 
> Doesn't change how much he knows, nor does it affect his ability to pass that knowledge on.



Yeah. I think correct form is to go in and spar a bunch of their top guys. And make a judgment from there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Everyone joins an MA for different reasons. Fighting/SD is one of them, but IMO it’s less and less of a priority as time goes by.


I used to think MA training is only good for fighting.

My long fist teacher is 92 years old today. If you train MA and never have to use it, but if it can help you to live through your 100 years old birthday, your MA training will have great value.


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## skribs (Feb 1, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well this went bad fast and a lot of folks took it personally......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The last half of his OP made it very clear he had a specific thread and individual in mind.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well this went bad fast and a lot of folks took it personally......



I think you're reading in more than was said.



> If there is anyone running afoul here it would me skribs and myself since we both related it to an individual who we did not name. the OP was posting a generalization



I wasn't addressing an individual. I was making a statement. 
If a thread says "you shouldn't be dishonest" then well duh.
If a thread says "this person is dishonest" then we have a fraudbusting problem.
If a thread says "you can't teach if you can't fight" then we have a nonsense claim.


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## Martial D (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight.   Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training.    Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.
> 
> You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general.   You learn respect and honor.   You treat others with kindness.   You evolve and usually become a better person.
> 
> ...


I made a similar post once that caused a **** storm of dislikes, outrage, and general buthurt from a lot of people. The fact yours isn't being received that way is encouraging.

Nowadays I just say buyer beware. There's a heck of a lot of nonsense being taught out there.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> You learn respect and honor.   You treat others with kindness.


You may expect too much out of the MA training.

When your teacher teaches you how to swing your Guan Dao to cut your opponent's head off, it's very difficult to associate that with "respect", and "kindness".

Some people use the word "kill". Others use the words "help someone to go to heaven." No matter which term that you may use, the behavior is all the same.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> No I think you can be both.


Semantics IMO. I view a fraud as someone who genuinely knows what they’re selling is BS, but keeps passing it off as legit to others.

The idiot, on the other hand, blindly accepts what he’s been sold and genuinely thinks he’s teaching something effective and legit.

The fraud knows and doesn’t care. The idiot has no clue.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 1, 2019)

I like pie.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I used to think MA training is only good for fighting.
> 
> My long fist teacher is 92 years old today. If you train MA and never have to use it, but if it can help you to live through your 100 years old birthday, your MA training will have great value.


I never said it was only good for fighting.

What I was saying is back when I started training in ‘94, most new people came in looking for SD training. They wanted other things too, but SD was typically first and foremost. The other stuff was a bonus; a welcomed bonus, but a bonus. Nowadays, it seems significantly less people are looking for SD; they’re looking for exercise primarily, and the other stuff as a bonus.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I like pie.



I don't disagree, but the type of pie is important. I don't much care for coconut cream, for example. But I do approve of pie, in general.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> Based on the comments he made to me in this thread, he's talking about a post a while back where someone had training in an art, and wanted to apply at a university, but the university required him to have a paper certificate that proves he was qualified to teach the art.  The problem isn't that he wasn't qualified - it's that he had no paper to prove it.


Is that what this is about?   



NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> He is not an instructor. Presents himself as one.
> Also delusional in their ability.... lost sparring against people with less than one year training. And continued to misrepresent his ability and himself as an instructor.


Not saying you don't have a right to be angry but here are some realities.


If you teach what you know then you are an instructor.  I can call myself an instructor of Jow Ga Kung fu.  I don't need paper work for that.  Teaching what I know makes me an instructor.  What I can't do is call myself a Sifu of Jow Ga because that is a different process.  I could develop my own fighting system and I can call myself Sifu  all I want. 

Delusional in their ability - Fighting with kung fu, tai chi or anything beyond basic kickboxing is not easy.  There are people out there who know their stuff and couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag.
If I were to take karate now.  There will be a lot of people who are going to lose against someone with less than one year of training.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may expect too much out of the MA training


I think you are right about that, on multiple levels.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 1, 2019)

Just on a side note.   If anyone trains with me,.. I hope I don't let you down. lol. because damn.  someone is upset. lol


----------



## ShortBridge (Feb 2, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I like pie.



Are there any videos on YouTube of you enjoying pie? If not it's just talk.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight.   Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training.    Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.
> 
> You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general.   You learn respect and honor.   You treat others with kindness.   You evolve and usually become a better person.
> 
> ...


Let me preface my post by saying that I reached the "teaching" rank in my primary art (so was approved to teach it), and have instructor certification built into my own curriculum, so I have no problem with those processes existing.

I disagree, almost entirely, with the idea that someone must be approved to teach before they have something of value. Nor do they _need_ the blessing of their instructor (unless they gave their word they wouldn't teach without it). Someone saying they are an instructor isn't lying unless they don't instruct. Now, saying they are a certified or approved instructor when they are not is entirely different. Saying they are an instructor within an organization (if said organization has standards for approved instructors) is different. But some independent martial artist teaching at his own school/program is an instructor, regardless of rank earned. There's no misrepresentation.

Note that my main disagreement is twofold, Firstly, that a given rank makes a better instructor, as an absolute. There are people who teach quite well, well shy of the "teacher" rank in their style. There are also very senior martial artists with rank well beyond the "teacher" rank who are not very good at teaching (including some who have been teaching many years).

Now, I don't know who the individual is that you are talking about (and, mind, bashing and fraud busting isn't allowed here, anyway), so I can't speak to that situation. But your blanket statement doesn't sit well with me as a generic statement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> If the individual actually teaches you something that is useful and I don't mean conceptually thought up...and never tested.   But something that will actually help you...   Then you paid for some martial arts training.    If on the same hand the person said they were certified to teach Kenpo Karate lets say... and produces a fake cert.... or says they are...  Then yes... you learned something from them... that still is something that you are able to apply.   But in the same respect you were ripped off and misrepresented.
> 
> It's like having work done on your house.   If the person says they are a licensed electrician and they do the work... and it short circuits or causes a fire...   Dammm you were really ripped off.   Even if it works.... you were still ripped off cause you thought it was a licensed electrician.
> 
> My point is about misrepresentation.    Like my disclaimer said... the paper does not mean you know what you are doing.  You can still be skilled without it.    Or you can be without the paper... without the skill... know it and still rip people off.   And that is what I see happening.


You seem to be conflating "ripped off" and "lied to". If they taught you what you went there to be taught, then you weren't ripped off. If they said they were certified, but weren't, then you were lied to.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> No disrespect....
> But the topic was Misrepresenting yourself....(be it a false piece of paper or ability)....
> 
> So Jobo... to answer your question in my opinion.... for what it's worth...
> ...


Okay, here's a different issue. There are instructors who think what they teach will work. Some are wrong about that. Are they lying, or just misinformed?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

skribs said:


> Not all arts or schools give a certificate.  What do you do if you learned from a school which did not give certificates, but due to campus bylaws or zoning regulations, you must be certified in order to teach in the area you want to teach?


Find someone who will issue a certificate. In a case like that, I don't see anything shady in getting a certificate from a source I would normally consider dishonest to use (because it's about the intent)..


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Agree...
> He totally is
> 
> 
> What do you think about someone who claims to be a teacher and is not...   Is delusional about their ability.   Goes somewhere(other school).... and gets their butt handed to them in a sparring situation by some students who has only trained a year.   YET..... they still claim they are an instructor.... and wishes to create false papers saying they are...  and poses they are??


Firstly, they are a teacher, if they are teaching.

Secondly, there are a lot of factors that could go into that sparring scenario, so seeing just those details I can imagine it either being a really bad martial artist who is teaching, a really skilled 1st year student (they exist), and several other things that require neither or both.

The false papers are another issue, if they intend to use them to represent themselves with a rank/approval they do not have. Of course, we'd also have to determine what you mean by "false papers".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> I never heard that is a teacher is not allowed to give certifications due to any laws...    I am not aware of this in the States.....


It's not about the teacher not being allowed to give certifications - some arts/systems simply do not. And in some places, they are required (I've run into it) to be able to teach/run a program there.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Yes.  That's a lot more clear.
> And now I also understand a little more.   Since I see you were part of the original post.... and you offered some good suggestions.
> 
> So... yes... some people are going to require you to show proof of what you are saying... and they require it.
> ...


Of your three suggestions, the first is workable in some cases, but only if you can find someone willing to do it (which may be harder to do that I think you expect). I think you misunderstand how easy it is to find (and fund) space to teach in.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may expect too much out of the MA training.
> 
> When your teacher teaches you how to swing your Guan Dao to cut your opponent's head off, it's very difficult to associate that with "respect", and "kindness".
> 
> Some people use the word "kill". Others use the words "help someone to go to heaven." No matter which term that you may use, the behavior is all the same.


I don't think it's a stretch to say people can learn to act with respect and kindness while training in MA. The same is true of any situation where they have to "place nicely" with other people, regardless of what they're training to do there.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't disagree, but the type of pie is important. I don't much care for coconut cream, for example. But I do approve of pie, in general.


The level of experience the pie has matters, too. Though it's an inverse relationship to how much I like it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It's not about the teacher not being allowed to give certifications - some arts/systems simply do not. And in some places, they are required (I've run into it) to be able to teach/run a program there.


  I don't require a certificate to teach Jow Ga.  The certificate only comes into play in the context of me being part of an organization.  A person doesn't need a certificate to fix computers, but if you want to be recognized by Cisco or CompTIA as someone who they will vouch for then you'll need a certificate.

I didn't have an instructor's certification when I taught the the Jow Ga school I used to attend. However my right to instruct was approved on multiple levels.  Would I create my own certificate?  Personally no, but that's only because I don't put much weight into them when it comes to martial arts, unless someone wants to learn from a specific organization.  If my customers care about it, then I would open my own school outside of my organization  and then certify myself as Chief Instructor.  It would be less of a certification and more of an acknowledgement that all certifications for my organization comes through me.  As I gain more students then my title would naturally increase in order to make room for the new leaders within my organization. 

If someone needed a certification for employment at a college then that would be the better way to do it in comparison to say that certification was earned under another.  It would just be easier to say "I trained under."  

From reading the OP's post it would seem that things are less about the certification and more about how the person presented himself.

I know of people who were certified instructors and certified Sifu's only to get kicked out of the organization that they belonged to.  While the person can still claim to be a Sifu he can no longer claim to be a Sifu of that organization.  Basically the certification that he had is void so any new certification will either be of his own creation or by a third party not related to Jow Ga.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 2, 2019)

Pie is only valid with whip cream on top.....just sayin


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 2, 2019)

There are some problems with the OP analogy of the contractor building something for you.  The analogy has a customer receiving a finished product. It is the product that is the problem not the contractor.  You could be an unlicensed or a licenced contractor, what matters is the delivery of a product that meets specifications.
In martial arts there is no such thing as a finished product, there is only a journey. What matters most is the shared relationship between the student and the teacher.  Most students today will have a continuum of teacher/ student relationships. If the teacher inspired you to keep training and learning more, they did their job. If the student enjoyed his time training  , then there was value in it.
All the rest of this chatter about rank and learning to fight is ego, resentment and bitterness.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 2, 2019)

we could also turn the problem around,
there are 100% legit high ranking instructors who may be the head of complete organizations,  but if they are arrogant and narcissistic and this person was your first teacher....you leave discouraged never to return to martial arts because "HE was supposed to be the best" and you let that bias ruin all the potential of what you could have been.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2019)

hoshin1600 said:


> we could also turn the problem around,
> there are 100% legit high ranking instructors who may be the head of complete organizations,  but if they are arrogant and narcissistic and this person was your first teacher....you leave discouraged never to return to martial arts because "HE was supposed to be the best" and you let that bias ruin all the potential of what you could have been.


Then this will be where the discourage person will have to accept reality..  Not everyone is arrogant, you just happened to find one what is.  Now keep looking and find something better.


----------



## skribs (Feb 2, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you teach what you know then you are an instructor. I can call myself an instructor of Jow Ga Kung fu. I don't need paper work for that. Teaching what I know makes me an instructor. What I can't do is call myself a Sifu of Jow Ga because that is a different process. I could develop my own fighting system and I can call myself Sifu all I want.



It depends on where you want to teach.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2019)

skribs said:


> It depends on where you want to teach.


Not really.  If you can't teach in one organization go to another.  If you can't teach in that one then start your own.   This is the definition I use for Instructor "*a person who teaches something.*"  It's a very low bar.as it doesn't factor in quality or expertise.  If you teach something then you are an instructor by definition.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 2, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not really.  If you can't teach in one organization go to another.  If you can't teach in that one then start your own.   This is the definition I use for Instructor "*a person who teaches something.*"  It's a very low bar.as it doesn't factor in quality or expertise.  If you teach something then you are an instructor by definition.



That is actually the dictionary definition of a teacher. Which is, in part, why I maintain that pretty much anybody can teach. Some are absolutely going to be better at teaching than others, but few, if any, cannot teach.

Even if all you do is serve as a bad example, you're still teaching.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> What do you think about someone who claims to be a teacher and is not...   Is delusional about their ability.   Goes somewhere(other school).... and gets their butt handed to them in a sparring situation by some students who has only trained a year.   YET..... they still claim they are an instructor.... and wishes to create false papers saying they are...  and poses they are??


Sounds to me like you have a specific person in mind.

Go buy a hatchet with cash (don’t leave an electronic trail by using a credit card) three states away (makes it harder for the forensics team to track the weapon) and kill him with it.  Make sure you set up a Dexter-style kill room.  Dispose of the weapon about 50 miles off the coast in the deep ocean.  Leave the body where it will be found and will send a message to all others like him.  Burn all the clothing you were wearing when you administered your justice.  Scrub everything with bleach.

Then get over it.


----------



## skribs (Feb 2, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not really.  If you can't teach in one organization go to another.  If you can't teach in that one then start your own.   This is the definition I use for Instructor "*a person who teaches something.*"  It's a very low bar.as it doesn't factor in quality or expertise.  If you teach something then you are an instructor by definition.



I'm not talking about the art, but the venue.  For example, if a college wants to offer a martial arts class.  The college has nothing to do with your art, but are giving you a space and a salary in order for you to teach the art.  Or if you want to teach classes at the Y.

If I were to go to one of these places and they asked for my credentials, I could show them my 3rd Dan certificate from Kukkiwon.  They wouldn't necessarily know what it is, but I would be certified and that would be enough for their credentials check.

But if I were to go in and do a boxing class, how do I verify to them that I know enough to teach boxing?

If the college is hiring a physics professor, the dean might not be a physicist.  So they look at the credentials of the applicant.  If they have a degree in Physics, they are trusting the college that gave them the degree that they are a legit physicist.


----------



## skribs (Feb 2, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds to me like you have a specific person in mind.
> 
> Go buy a hatchet with cash (don’t leave an electronic trail by using a credit card) three states away (makes it harder for the forensics team to track the weapon) and kill him with it.  Make sure you set up a Dexter-style kill room.  Dispose of the weapon about 50 miles off the coast in the deep ocean.  Leave the body where it will be found and will send a message to all others like him.  Burn all the clothing you were wearing when you administered your justice.  Scrub everything with bleach.
> 
> Then get over it.



I would not follow this advice.  That's just me, though.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 2, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm not talking about the art, but the venue.  For example, if a college wants to offer a martial arts class.  The college has nothing to do with your art, but are giving you a space and a salary in order for you to teach the art.  Or if you want to teach classes at the Y.
> 
> If I were to go to one of these places and they asked for my credentials, I could show them my 3rd Dan certificate from Kukkiwon.  They wouldn't necessarily know what it is, but I would be certified and that would be enough for their credentials check.
> 
> ...


They’re looking for proof. In the boxing instructor scenario, there’s a few ways. If you’ve owned a gym, you can prove that. If you worked at a gym, you can ask the boss for a written and/or verbal reference. If you’re teaching people out of your basement, you can list your students as references. 

How do I prove I teach at a private school? I’ve got no certificate saying I teach there. But there’s the school’s website that I’m on, and my boss can write a letter of reference/recommendation. And they can verify my boss wrote it by calling him at his office. Yes I’m certified in NYS as a teacher, but that doesn’t prove any actual experience beyond requirements for certification. 

Same as every other job. Teaching MA doesn’t exactly exist in a vacuum.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Skribs...
> I don't care too.
> I didn't relate it back to that post because I have noticed it in many regards.     Several individuals in my area that are misrepresenting themselves to the public.   It's a problem in Martial Arts.  Esp. in my area.   The public goes in believing the "instructor" of the school.  They have no basis to judge.   They most of the time lack any training themselves...   So how can they judge.    So this is really a GENERAL problem happening.   People saying they are what they are not.   And I do not wish to single anyone out.   Hence I posted it general as not to reflect on any one individual.    In General I have seen people purchase certificates, falsely say they are something that they are not.  And it goes unchecked.   And there is not any governing body to hold anyone accountable.   It's a shame...   I let it go locally.   There is nothing that I could or want to do about it.
> 
> I bring it up here... because I thought it would hold for an interesting conversation where Martial Arts is headed.   Many people depend on it's reputation to make a living.   Thankfully I do not.


In all seriousness, it comes across as being pretty passive-aggressive.

Charlatans abound.  
People of low skill abound.
Self-delusional narcissists abound.  I hear you can even be The President if you are one.

The world is full of low quality folks.  Ain’t much to be done about it in most cases.  

In the context of martial arts, I can’t get too worked up over it.  I make my own decisions about who I do and do not train with or associate with.  If asked by a friend, I will be honest in my assessment and help guide them in their choices.  Beyond that, meh.  Caveate emptor.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 2, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I like pie.


What kind?  Rhubarb is my favorite.  Not that mashed-up blend of rhubarb and strawberry.  That is an inferior product.  A straight-up rhubarb pie is da bomb.


----------



## skribs (Feb 2, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> They’re looking for proof. In the boxing instructor scenario, there’s a few ways. If you’ve owned a gym, you can prove that. If you worked at a gym, you can ask the boss for a written and/or verbal reference. If you’re teaching people out of your basement, you can list your students as references.
> 
> How do I prove I teach at a private school? I’ve got no certificate saying I teach there. But there’s the school’s website that I’m on, and my boss can write a letter of reference/recommendation. And they can verify my boss wrote it by calling him at his office. Yes I’m certified in NYS as a teacher, but that doesn’t prove any actual experience beyond requirements for certification.
> 
> Same as every other job. Teaching MA doesn’t exactly exist in a vacuum.



We're rehashing the discussion from the other thread.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 2, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> What kind?  Rhubarb is my favorite.  Not that mashed-up blend of rhubarb and strawberry.  That is an inferior product.  A straight-up rhubarb pie is da bomb.



I like banana cream pie and lemon meringue myself. Apple is fine too.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 2, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I like banana cream pie and lemon meringue myself.



I knew there was some reason I like you, @Bill Mattocks.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I knew there was some reason I like you, @Bill Mattocks.



Well, I'm a likable guy. And I like you too.


----------



## Martial D (Feb 2, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> What kind?  Rhubarb is my favorite.  Not that mashed-up blend of rhubarb and strawberry.  That is an inferior product.  A straight-up rhubarb pie is da bomb.


RIGHT?

Only time I see those is when the wife bakes them. All the store bought stuff is strawberry rhubarb or apple rhubarb. Leave my damn rhubarb alone! It doesn't need a chaperone!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general.   You learn respect and honor.   You treat others with kindness.   You evolve and usually become a better person.


So far I have not seen any proof that MA training can help someone to achieve that.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2019)

For me personally I wouldn't try to teach at a college unless they could ask around about me in the same manner as job references.


Bill Mattocks said:


> I like banana cream pie and lemon meringue myself. Apple is fine too.


all this talk about pie


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not really.  If you can't teach in one organization go to another.  If you can't teach in that one then start your own.   This is the definition I use for Instructor "*a person who teaches something.*"  It's a very low bar.as it doesn't factor in quality or expertise.  If you teach something then you are an instructor by definition.


I think he's talking about the physical location. Some places require proof of some sort. I've been asked in one place, and know others who've had to supply credentials elsewhere.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> They’re looking for proof. In the boxing instructor scenario, there’s a few ways. If you’ve owned a gym, you can prove that. If you worked at a gym, you can ask the boss for a written and/or verbal reference. If you’re teaching people out of your basement, you can list your students as references.
> 
> How do I prove I teach at a private school? I’ve got no certificate saying I teach there. But there’s the school’s website that I’m on, and my boss can write a letter of reference/recommendation. And they can verify my boss wrote it by calling him at his office. Yes I’m certified in NYS as a teacher, but that doesn’t prove any actual experience beyond requirements for certification.
> 
> Same as every other job. Teaching MA doesn’t exactly exist in a vacuum.


That all works fine unless the gym closed (and you can't find the guy who owned it), or the owner has decided he hates you now and gleefully says no to the request for references. That's the handy thing about a rank certificate - it's already there, so there's no need to track someone down.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, I'm a likable guy. And I like you too.


Don't tell him that. Listen, that fat Senior Moderator paycheck already goes to his head. If he thinks people like him, too, he'll be simply impossible to deal with.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> RIGHT?
> 
> Only time I see those is when the wife bakes them. All the store bought stuff is strawberry rhubarb or apple rhubarb. Leave my damn rhubarb alone! It doesn't need a chaperone!





Kung Fu Wang said:


> So far I have not seen any proof that MA training can help someone to achieve that.



I read these two in a row, and was confused. KFW, what the heck are you talking about MA in a pie thread for, man??


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Don't tell him that. Listen, that fat Senior Moderator paycheck already goes to his head. If he thinks people like him, too, he'll be simply impossible to deal with.


I don't believe MA training can make a better person. 2 of my students had committed suicide because women. I had always told my students that 3 legs frog may be hard to find, but 2 legs woman are all over the world. Still my MA teaching could not help these 2 students.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't believe MA training can make a better person. 2 of my students had committed suicide because women. I had always told my students that 3 legs frog may be hard to find, but 2 legs woman are all over the world. Still my MA teaching could not help these 2 students.


There's a difference between "can make a better person" and "will make a better person".

Personally, I prefer to say it can help people become better people. The MA training doesn't do the work, the people do. And there's nothing magical about MA in this respect. As @Steve has pointed out before, there are other activities that can help build the same traits. MA (or football, or tennis) can be hard work (if you train seriously in it), which builds discipline if people stick with it. Following rules for the benefit of others, showing respect for people who are helping you, etc. are all part of the package.

EDIT: And teaching about relationships is highly tangential to MA, so MA training is unlikely to be a big help in that area, other than helping people have better self-control.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't believe MA training can make a better person. 2 of my students had committed suicide because women. I had always told my students that 3 legs frog may be hard to find, but 2 legs woman are all over the world. Still my MA teaching could not help these 2 students.


It CAN help. It doesn’t mean that it DEFINITELY WILL help. 

Rehab CAN help people overcome their addictions. It doesn’t mean it DEFINITELY WILL. People need to want to overcome their addictions with every bit discipline, desire, motivation, and so on. And even then it’s not always enough.

Putting an alcoholic into AA won’t guarantee anything. At best it provides the proper environment for them to commit to overcoming their addiction. Putting a person into MA won’t guarantee anything either, physically nor mentally. At best it provides them with the proper environment to be able to do so, but they have to want to do so.

Some people in MA might see some mental improvement just by being there and working out, but there’s not going to be any magical transformation unless they’re committed to it. For people with mental illness that’s severe enough to cause suicide (not just intentional failed attempts to get attention), MA is only one small part of the entire picture. They need far more than just being in a dojo. It can definitely help, but it isn’t a cure in and of itself.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There's a difference between "can make a better person" and "will make a better person".
> 
> Personally, I prefer to say it can help people become better people. The MA training doesn't do the work, the people do. And there's nothing magical about MA in this respect. As @Steve has pointed out before, there are other activities that can help build the same traits. MA (or football, or tennis) can be hard work (if you train seriously in it), which builds discipline if people stick with it. Following rules for the benefit of others, showing respect for people who are helping you, etc. are all part of the package.
> 
> EDIT: And teaching about relationships is highly tangential to MA, so MA training is unlikely to be a big help in that area, other than helping people have better self-control.



This this this forever.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Don't tell him that. Listen, that fat Senior Moderator paycheck already goes to his head. If he thinks people like him, too, he'll be simply impossible to deal with.



You mean I'm not already impossible to deal with?
Dammit, and I was trying so hard...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You mean I'm not already impossible to deal with?
> Dammit, and I was trying so hard...


You're close. I'm not sitting next to you at the next secret conclave, that's for sure.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You're close. I'm not sitting next to you at the next secret conclave, that's for sure.



Why do I picture this?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why do I picture this?


That was the song I had in my head when I typed "conclave". I'll be the one with the Harley in his room.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That was the song I had in my head when I typed "conclave". I'll be the one with the Harley in his room.


Do you listen to Howard Stern? All I can think of is the recent Wack Pack Conclave whenever anyone says conclave.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Do you listen to Howard Stern? All I can think of is the recent Wack Pack Conclave whenever anyone says conclave.


No, I've never listened to his show much.


----------



## pgsmith (Feb 4, 2019)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> So I ask this question. If you were not a contractor and you hired someone to build an addition on your house.. who you thought they knew what they were doing. And later found out that you got ripped off and paid tons of money to find out it was all done wrong. Or if you hired someone to fix your car and to just find that it was worse. How would you feel?



Sorry, but I would feel like an idiot for not doing any research before handing over "tons of money". 

In today's society, with a plethora of information at everyone's fingertips, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to ever hand over "tons of money" without knowing what they're getting or who they're getting it from. 

Scam artists have been taking advantage of gullible fools since mankind first traded a spear point for a hunk of mammoth. Much easier (and more reasonable) to preach "don't be a gullible fool!" than it is to try and save people from their own poor judgement.

  That's just my take on it.


----------



## Dan Draper (May 26, 2020)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> My original post was actually pertaining to several people.
> 
> The post you are talking about... from the past.
> The problem skrib is that he isn't qualified...   I know for a fact.   I know his Sifu.   So I am saying he misrepresented himself here also.



I know him too, as well as his teacher. The teacher confirmed that he had given permission to teach...not the whole system, mind you, but he certainly has knowledge. Also, that was a while back. What's the point in holding on to this? Seriously. Move on and train. What about YOUR code of conduct? Try looking in a mirror.


----------



## Dan Draper (May 26, 2020)

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Skribs...
> I don't care too.
> I didn't relate it back to that post because I have noticed it in many regards.     Several individuals in my area that are misrepresenting themselves to the public.   It's a problem in Martial Arts.  Esp. in my area.   The public goes in believing the "instructor" of the school.  They have no basis to judge.   They most of the time lack any training themselves...   So how can they judge.    So this is really a GENERAL problem happening.   People saying they are what they are not.   And I do not wish to single anyone out.   Hence I posted it general as not to reflect on any one individual.    In General I have seen people purchase certificates, falsely say they are something that they are not.  And it goes unchecked.   And there is not any governing body to hold anyone accountable.   It's a shame...   I let it go locally.   There is nothing that I could or want to do about it.
> 
> I bring it up here... because I thought it would hold for an interesting conversation where Martial Arts is headed.   Many people depend on it's reputation to make a living.   Thankfully I do not.



I also know this person doesn't make ANY claims to be a Sifu. He is merely teaching people what he knows about Wing Chun to show people what it is like. He even defers people to those who taught him. If he knows enough to teach the basics but then doesn't claim to be a Grandmaster himself, I don't see what is wrong with that.


----------



## Dan Draper (May 26, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> I know the situation and I know who the OP is talking and I know the teachers of the person the OP  is talking about.....and all I have to say is I agree with the OP



Well, I also know the situation, and I also know you don't know the person being discussed OR the entire situation. You just went by what NYFIGHTSOURCE said simply because you have known him longer. There is a whole other side to the story that you never bothered to get. And hey, that's your right. However, if you don't know everything, then you should keep your mouth shut...or your fingers off the keyboard, as it were. Since you are only on the peripheral (and, from what I understand, know the person in question only through brief discussions here), there is no way you have all the details.

Also, seeing the character your buddy NY has shown here, he is the LAST person whose version of events I'd find credible. I would consider them to be HIS truth, but not the WHOLE truth. Personally, in a situation where there is more than one person involved, I don't see how anyone can just blindly follow the version of one side just because they know the person telling it.

Is that what you are, Xue? A blind follower? A sheep? Seems like it to me.


----------



## jobo (May 26, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> Well, I also know the situation, and I also know you don't know the person being discussed OR the entire situation. You just went by what NYFIGHTSOURCE said simply because you have known him longer. There is a whole other side to the story that you never bothered to get. And hey, that's your right. However, if you don't know everything, then you should keep your mouth shut...or your fingers off the keyboard, as it were. Since you are only on the peripheral (and, from what I understand, know the person in question only through brief discussions here), there is no way you have all the details.
> 
> Also, seeing the character your buddy NY has shown here, he is the LAST person whose version of events I'd find credible. I would consider them to be HIS truth, but not the WHOLE truth. Personally, in a situation where there is more than one person involved, I don't see how anyone can just blindly follow the version of one side just because they know the person telling it.
> 
> Is that what you are, Xue? A blind follower? A sheep? Seems like it to me.


 i think you maybe talking to an empty room, i dont know if xue has left the forum, just ive not seen him post in quite a while

its seems a bit pointless therefore to vent your spleen at someone who very well may not see your sentiments


----------



## Headhunter (May 26, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> Well, I also know the situation, and I also know you don't know the person being discussed OR the entire situation. You just went by what NYFIGHTSOURCE said simply because you have known him longer. There is a whole other side to the story that you never bothered to get. And hey, that's your right. However, if you don't know everything, then you should keep your mouth shut...or your fingers off the keyboard, as it were. Since you are only on the peripheral (and, from what I understand, know the person in question only through brief discussions here), there is no way you have all the details.
> 
> Also, seeing the character your buddy NY has shown here, he is the LAST person whose version of events I'd find credible. I would consider them to be HIS truth, but not the WHOLE truth. Personally, in a situation where there is more than one person involved, I don't see how anyone can just blindly follow the version of one side just because they know the person telling it.
> 
> Is that what you are, Xue? A blind follower? A sheep? Seems like it to me.


----------



## skribs (May 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> i think you maybe talking to an empty room, i dont know if xue has left the forum, just ive not seen him post in quite a while
> 
> its seems a bit pointless therefore to vent your spleen at someone who very well may not see your sentiments



It's almost always pointless to start replying to a thread that hasn't had any input in over a year.


----------



## skribs (May 26, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> View attachment 22859



He has 3 posts...all in this thread.


----------



## Dan Draper (May 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> He has 3 posts...all in this thread.



Yeah because I just joined and happened to see it...thought it was worth a remark since I do know the situation...didn't pay attention to the dates. It happens.


----------



## Dan Draper (May 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> i think you maybe talking to an empty room, i dont know if xue has left the forum, just ive not seen him post in quite a while
> 
> its seems a bit pointless therefore to vent your spleen at someone who very well may not see your sentiments



If I just joined, how would I know if he has left? Not quite grasping that.


----------



## Headhunter (May 26, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> Yeah because I just joined and happened to see it...thought it was worth a remark since I do know the situation...didn't pay attention to the dates. It happens.


Hmmmmm.....so you join up and then straight away you just happen to see a year old thread that would be quite far down the forums list and it just so happens to be something you know about?....yeah I don't buy that


----------



## jobo (May 26, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> If I just joined, how would I know if he has left? Not quite grasping that.





Dan Draper said:


> If I just joined, how would I know if he has left? Not quite grasping that.


you could click on his profile to see when he was last active.

as it is i was just saving you the bother of working yourself up in to a lather to no one in particular

dont dispare, there are lots of active threads that have descended to to petty personal attacks, you could join in one of them


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2020)

I'm sorry I missed this one.  There's a guy named Thorstein Veblen, an economist from the early 1900s, who talks about something called ceremonial dominance and ceremonial adequacy, which is the heart of this debate.  As I understand it, ceremonial dominance is when society applies some kind of a social overlay to something, which often has no bearing on the thing itself.  Ceremonial adequacy refers to whether or not someone meets the criteria.  

For example, a person can go to a college for 3 years and 11 months.  At that point, the education is functionally the same as someone who goes for 4 years.  But the person who gets the diploma is ceremonially adequate.  Which means society at large recognizes his or her education.  In the same way, a dude who trains for 10 years in a style, but never gets a black belt may have skills.  However, to society at large, there is little difference between that guy and someone who's never trained at all.  Neither are ceremonially adequate.

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion. Good arguments for both sides of it.


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2020)

Reading through the thread, I think @skribs and @gpseymour discussed certification as a statutory requirement for opening an MA business.  Can someone share an example of a place where a person needs a special certification in order to teach a martial art?  Some trades require a certification or a license to operate.  I'm not aware of 1: any regulatory board that oversees martial arts or 2: any statutory requirement anywhere that one be certified to teach any martial art.  I'm pretty sure that as long as you get your business license and give Uncle Sugar his cut, you are good to go.  

Here's a site that pretty succinctly outlines the steps involved in starting a martial arts business:  How to Start a Martial Arts Studio

Notably absent is being a competent and credible martial artist.  Now, don't get me wrong.  I think it's important to be credible, and a certificate of rank can help with that.  But I would be very surprised if anywhere in the USA, that is essential to opening the business.


----------



## skribs (May 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> Reading through the thread, I think @skribs and @gpseymour discussed certification as a statutory requirement for opening an MA business. Can someone share an example of a place where a person needs a special certification in order to teach a martial art? Some trades require a certification or a license to operate. I'm not aware of 1: any regulatory board that oversees martial arts or 2: any statutory requirement anywhere that one be certified to teach any martial art. I'm pretty sure that as long as you get your business license and give Uncle Sugar his cut, you are good to go.



In Taekwondo, you need to be certified with an organization.  Technically anyone could open an unaffiliated school, but those are generally seen as less credible.

If someone were to post "is this a good school?" on a Taekwondo site and link to a school called Skribs Taekwondo, and there was nothing that could link me to any organization, everyone would say it's a huge red flag and not to go there.  On the other hand, if Skribs Taekwondo was affiliated with Kukkiwon, at least the fact that I were given a rank from them would give me some level of credibility.

With any art with a large organization, you'll need some sort of status from the organization to open a school.  Or you can create your own lineage for whatever credibility it will have.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 26, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> If I just joined, how would I know if he has left? Not quite grasping that.


Out of curiosity, if you just joined, then how do you know whether or not xue knows who is being discussed? I'd agree that you could say he might not know the whole situation, but no one ever does.

The reason I ask is that xue is a pretty private person. So even the people who do post on here a lot and have had interactiond with him generally don't know so much as his name.

Also, unless I missed it, nyfightsource never stated who he was talking about (if he did we may have to review the thread for fraudbusting). 

For the record I've got no clue who is being talked about. I could make a pretty reasonable assumption based on the people/their styles but that would  require me to know the area. So I've got no dog in the discussion.


----------



## Buka (May 26, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> Well, I also know the situation, and I also know you don't know the person being discussed OR the entire situation. You just went by what NYFIGHTSOURCE said simply because you have known him longer. There is a whole other side to the story that you never bothered to get. And hey, that's your right. However, if you don't know everything, then you should keep your mouth shut...or your fingers off the keyboard, as it were. Since you are only on the peripheral (and, from what I understand, know the person in question only through brief discussions here), there is no way you have all the details.
> 
> Also, seeing the character your buddy NY has shown here, he is the LAST person whose version of events I'd find credible. I would consider them to be HIS truth, but not the WHOLE truth. Personally, in a situation where there is more than one person involved, I don't see how anyone can just blindly follow the version of one side just because they know the person telling it.
> 
> Is that what you are, Xue? A blind follower? A sheep? Seems like it to me.



First...welcome to Martial Talk, Dan.

Second...don't insult anybody like that. Especially my friend Xue.


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> In Taekwondo, you need to be certified with an organization.  Technically anyone could open an unaffiliated school, but those are generally seen as less credible.
> 
> If someone were to post "is this a good school?" on a Taekwondo site and link to a school called Skribs Taekwondo, and there was nothing that could link me to any organization, everyone would say it's a huge red flag and not to go there.  On the other hand, if Skribs Taekwondo was affiliated with Kukkiwon, at least the fact that I were given a rank from them would give me some level of credibility.
> 
> With any art with a large organization, you'll need some sort of status from the organization to open a school.  Or you can create your own lineage for whatever credibility it will have.


That makes sense.  So, not a legal requirement, but a practical one related to credibility.


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Out of curiosity, if you just joined, then how do you know whether or not xue knows who is being discussed? I'd agree that you could say he might not know the whole situation, but no one ever does.
> 
> The reason I ask is that xue is a pretty private person. So even the people who do post on here a lot and have had interactiond with him generally don't know so much as his name.
> 
> ...


I haven’t followed the drama, but I thought this was about that monk guy who posted here a few weeks back.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> I haven’t followed the drama, but I thought this was about that monk guy who posted here a few weeks back.


Nope, different one. Without giving too many details from what i can tell this is a cma teacher in upstate new york.


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Nope, different one. Without giving too many details from what i can tell this is a cma teacher in upstate new york.


Ah, well.  Shows how much attention I gave it.


----------



## skribs (May 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> That makes sense. So, not a legal requirement, but a practical one related to credibility.



Looking back, I think this was in response to another thread, where someone needed to be credentialed in order to teach a class at the university.  He'd trained for several years (or more), but his style didn't give certificates or anything like that.  So when he went to the school and said he could open a martial arts class, he had no paperwork to verify he could teach what he taught.  So he was trying to figure out the best way to get credentialed in an art that doesn't credential you.

I could be wrong.  But that may have been where my comments came from.


----------



## Buka (May 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> In Taekwondo, you need to be certified with an organization.  Technically anyone could open an unaffiliated school, but those are generally seen as less credible.
> 
> If someone were to post "is this a good school?" on a Taekwondo site and link to a school called Skribs Taekwondo, and there was nothing that could link me to any organization, everyone would say it's a huge red flag and not to go there.  On the other hand, if Skribs Taekwondo was affiliated with Kukkiwon, at least the fact that I were given a rank from them would give me some level of credibility.
> 
> With any art with a large organization, you'll need some sort of status from the organization to open a school.  Or you can create your own lineage for whatever credibility it will have.



I trained for some years at Billy Blanks's TKD school, one on the east coast and one on the west coast. The east coast one was one of the best and crazy-hard training places I've ever set foot in.

As far as I recall, it wasn't part of any organization. And I'm glad, I don't really care much for Martial Arts organizations.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> Reading through the thread, I think @skribs and @gpseymour discussed certification as a statutory requirement for opening an MA business.  Can someone share an example of a place where a person needs a special certification in order to teach a martial art?  Some trades require a certification or a license to operate.  I'm not aware of 1: any regulatory board that oversees martial arts or 2: any statutory requirement anywhere that one be certified to teach any martial art.  I'm pretty sure that as long as you get your business license and give Uncle Sugar his cut, you are good to go.
> 
> Here's a site that pretty succinctly outlines the steps involved in starting a martial arts business:  How to Start a Martial Arts Studio
> 
> Notably absent is being a competent and credible martial artist.  Now, don't get me wrong.  I think it's important to be credible, and a certificate of rank can help with that.  But I would be very surprised if anywhere in the USA, that is essential to opening the business.



Boxing has some sort of licence. And then the boxing organizations have their own licences. And there is a sort of umbrella kickboxing MMA one. But quite often they are not interchangeable. We have had to borrow a licensed boxing coach from time to time to complete.


----------



## skribs (May 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> I trained for some years at Billy Blanks's TKD school, one on the east coast and one on the west coast. The east coast one was one of the best and crazy-hard training places I've ever set foot in.
> 
> As far as I recall, it wasn't part of any organization. And I'm glad, I don't really care much for Martial Arts organizations.



Yeah, but for every Bill Blank, there's a dozen Master Ken's and a hundred a Rex Kwon Do's.


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Boxing has some sort of licence. And then the boxing organizations have their own licences. And there is a sort of umbrella kickboxing MMA one. But quite often they are not interchangeable. We have had to borrow a licensed boxing coach from time to time to complete.


sure, but to be clear, those are either internally imposed requirements or legal, sanctioning certificates.  You're right that those definitely exist within competitive organizations.  But, if I didn't have an interest in competing in sanctioned events, I could legally open a boxing gym or an MMA gym in short order.  I'm not saying I'd be successful, just that there's no legal reason I couldn't.   Just that all of the hurdles to open a gym are unrelated to my competence or certification within that art.  At most, I might have to change the name.  

I don't teach MMA.  I teach Street Heavy Intensive Training Martial Arts (aka, ****-MA)


----------



## skribs (May 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> sure, but to be clear, those are either internally imposed requirements or legal, sanctioning certificates.  You're right that those definitely exist within competitive organizations.  But, if I didn't have an interest in competing in sanctioned events, I could legally open a boxing gym or an MMA gym in short order.  I'm not saying I'd be successful, just that there's no legal reason I couldn't.   Just that all of the hurdles to open a gym are unrelated to my competence or certification within that art.  At most, I might have to change the name.
> 
> I don't teach MMA.  I teach Street Heavy Intensive Training Martial Arts (aka, ****-MA)



I know a friend of mine works at a cardio kickboxing place, and they have to be very clear that it's just exercise and not martial arts training.

You might want to re-think your acronym, because a lot of people will turn that against you and say what you're teaching is...


----------



## Flying Crane (May 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> Yeah, but for every Bill Blank, there's a dozen Master Ken's and a hundred a Rex Kwon Do's.


Yeah, but there are also organizations that automatically cause me to advise folks to stay away from at all costs.  Just because of who they are.

And there are folks who are independent and have no connection to an organization.  And they rock.  Some of the best instruction you could find anywhere.   Some of them still have good relationships with their teachers, while others do not and are truly on their own.  It does not matter, because they are good at what they do.  So they had a falling out with their teacher.  So what.

So it really depends.

I’m not a big fan of big organizations.  I’m a big fan of people building their own reputation through their own hard work.


----------



## Dan Draper (May 26, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Out of curiosity, if you just joined, then how do you know whether or not xue knows who is being discussed? I'd agree that you could say he might not know the whole situation, but no one ever does.
> 
> The reason I ask is that xue is a pretty private person. So even the people who do post on here a lot and have had interactiond with him generally don't know so much as his name.
> 
> ...



I know because, as I stated, I also happen to know who is being discussed. Xue might be private, but the person being discussed and accused of being a fraud is NOT as private. He used to be quite active on here a few years back. 

Also, NY might not have mentioned names, but he made it pretty clear he was talking about someone who said he had been offered the chance to teach a full-year course at an upstate NY college, but they wanted a certificate that gave him permission to teach. He could not produce one because the place where he trains just doesn't issue them.

Having said all that, I know the person in question, and he is adamant about NOT being identified as a Sifu. NY is partially right in that he was not certified to teach. However, he was given PERMISSION to teach. NY says he "knows this person's instructor." I guarantee you: he means the person's OLD instructor. 

Look at it this way: if you are training at Wing Chun School #1, but then you move away and have to start going to Wing Chun School #2 in order to keep training, then why would you need to be certified to teach by Wing Chun School #? You don't train there anymore! And I doubt school #2 would call school #1 and say, "I want to certify this guy to teach. What do you think?" No, sir. The new school wouldn't contact the old one to get "permission" like that.

I don't know what NY's problem is, because the person in question is someone I have known for a while and talk to regularly. I know that, aside from an email they sent to NY last summer where they apologized for how their relationship went sideways, the unnamed person hasn't even THOUGHT about NY for the last two years. Meanwhile, NY is on this site, bashing away and griping about someone who never even utters his name.

Sad, really.

As for fraudbusting, I am not sure what your rules are about that. Since the person is not named, but it is made pretty clear who NY means by the way he describes their "credentials" thread, I think it would be worth looking at. Then again, it's your site, so what do I know?


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> sure, but to be clear, those are either internally imposed requirements or legal, sanctioning certificates.  You're right that those definitely exist within competitive organizations.  But, if I didn't have an interest in competing in sanctioned events, I could legally open a boxing gym or an MMA gym in short order.  I'm not saying I'd be successful, just that there's no legal reason I couldn't.   Just that all of the hurdles to open a gym are unrelated to my competence or certification within that art.  At most, I might have to change the name.
> 
> I don't teach MMA.  I teach Street Heavy Intensive Training Martial Arts (aka, ****-MA)



Yeah. You can't even go for a copyright if it is a generic term.


----------



## Headhunter (May 26, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> I know because, as I stated, I also happen to know who is being discussed. Xue might be private, but the person being discussed and accused of being a fraud is NOT as private. He used to be quite active on here a few years back.
> 
> Also, NY might not have mentioned names, but he made it pretty clear he was talking about someone who said he had been offered the chance to teach a full-year course at an upstate NY college, but they wanted a certificate that gave him permission to teach. He could not produce one because the place where he trains just doesn't issue them.
> 
> ...


You only joined today....how do you know this person was active on here years ago?...


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2020)

Is


Dan Draper said:


> I know because, as I stated, I also happen to know who is being discussed. Xue might be private, but the person being discussed and accused of being a fraud is NOT as private. He used to be quite active on here a few years back.
> 
> Also, NY might not have mentioned names, but he made it pretty clear he was talking about someone who said he had been offered the chance to teach a full-year course at an upstate NY college, but they wanted a certificate that gave him permission to teach. He could not produce one because the place where he trains just doesn't issue them.
> 
> ...


Wait.  Is this... Dang it.  I remember...  It'll come to me.  The guy used to work for the state.

Edit.  Are we talking about @wingchun100??


----------



## JR 137 (May 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> That makes sense.  So, not a legal requirement, but a practical one related to credibility.


I’d say more copyright/trademark than anything else. 

I could open JR’s Seido Karate today. Unless I have Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura’s expressed written approval, I can be sued for violating his trademark. I can’t pretend to be affiliated with an organization that I’ve not received permission from. Same as any other business. I can’t open an Outback Steakhouse without going through the proper channels.

I could easily open JR’s Karate Dojo. So long as I’m not making claims that are illegal, nothing’s stopping me. Lies aren’t illegal, for the most part. I could also open JR’s Steakhouse. So long as you’re not violating trademarks and are compliant with the regulations in that particular field, there’s nothing stopping you. There’s no licensing board nor process for MA instruction. There may be local codes related to the building, occupancy, and department of health stuff, but nothing stating MA credentials. Insurance companies will have their distinct regulations as will landlords. No government agency is going to deny you an MA school license to operate because you didn’t provide an MA teaching certificate.

Caveat emptor and all that good stuff.


----------



## Buka (May 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> Yeah, but for every Bill Blank, there's a dozen Master Ken's and a hundred a Rex Kwon Do's.



Man, wouldn't it be great to actually go visit and train with the guy who plays Master Ken?


----------



## skribs (May 26, 2020)

Buka said:


> Man, wouldn't it be great to actually go visit and train with the guy who plays Master Ken?



That guy yes.  The guy he's parodying?  No.


----------



## Jaeimseu (May 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> In Taekwondo, you need to be certified with an organization.  Technically anyone could open an unaffiliated school, but those are generally seen as less credible.
> 
> If someone were to post "is this a good school?" on a Taekwondo site and link to a school called Skribs Taekwondo, and there was nothing that could link me to any organization, everyone would say it's a huge red flag and not to go there.  On the other hand, if Skribs Taekwondo was affiliated with Kukkiwon, at least the fact that I were given a rank from them would give me some level of credibility.
> 
> With any art with a large organization, you'll need some sort of status from the organization to open a school.  Or you can create your own lineage for whatever credibility it will have.



IMO, this simply isn’t true. Affiliation to an organization is something that we care about as experienced martial artists, but I don’t think the typical prospective student knows or cares anything about it. 

Anecdotally speaking, I’ve been open for about 3 years. I’ve spoken to exactly one prospect who inquired about my certification or affiliation. And I don’t bring it up when I talk to people. I don’t talk much about myself at all unless I get a specific question. 

Veteran Taekwondo people may see an unaffiliated school as less credible, but Joe public likely does not. My experience is that people find a school through Google or an ad, call or fill out a contact form, and then maybe come in for a trial class. If they perceive value in the program, they enroll. Certificates (and even price) don’t really matter (to potential clients) in my experience. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skribs (May 26, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> IMO, this simply isn’t true. Affiliation to an organization is something that we care about as experienced martial artists, but I don’t think the typical prospective student knows or cares anything about it.



I see a lot of posts online "is this a good school?"  Not here, but other sites like Reddit.  And no affiliation is a big red flag.


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## wab25 (May 27, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> I know because, as I stated, I also happen to know who is being discussed. Xue might be private, but the person being discussed and accused of being a fraud is NOT as private. He used to be quite active on here a few years back.
> 
> Also, NY might not have mentioned names, but he made it pretty clear he was talking about someone who said he had been offered the chance to teach a full-year course at an upstate NY college, but they wanted a certificate that gave him permission to teach. He could not produce one because the place where he trains just doesn't issue them.
> 
> ...


Here is the sad part. This issue was brought up over a year ago. There was a discussion about it, which then got a little side tracked... then it got forgotten about. Then it got buried under hundreds of other threads, about other things. Now that you have joined, and responded with your side of the story... the biggest thing you did, was to bring this issue to the front again. Many of the folks in the original discussion had forgotten all about it and had to reread the thread to remember who and what it was about. There are now a bunch of new people getting interested in this thread again... and in those involved. And because there is even more drama.... people will be more curious.

But, you said that last summer, emails were sent to repair the relationship. As long as efforts are being made to repair the relationship... why are you dragging their dirt back out for everyone to see? Two parties have a dust up with each other... then one or both (I don't really know) tries to repair the relationship and move past it... and here you come dragging out the their old dirt, that everyone else has moved on from and forgotten about. Why try to restart something that doesn't need to be restarted? That's the sad part here. Sometimes its better to let forgotten things be forgotten.


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## dvcochran (May 27, 2020)

To comment off what @JR 137 and @Steve have said; I think both are correct. 
In TN and in the research I have done there is no legislation requiring proof of a level martial arts proficiency required to open a business. So yes, anyone can go out and open up 'Joe's Shaolin Ninja Praying Mantis Systema gym'. If you research some of the requirements for gyms and dance schools you will find that a MA's school will fall under those guidelines. They have some fairly loose verbiage about intent and offering. It checks the boxes very good for health and safety but beyond that, free enterprise is left to it's own devices. There are no specific requirements for accreditation.
From a governmental perspective, it is easier and proven that service industries are largely self regulated by virtue of their ability to deliver a product people are willing to pay for.   
In the business/marketing aspect of it all it is just easier to build a MA's business when it is affiliated with a larger body. Organizationally, product(s) offered, extended activities (tournaments and such) advancement, etc.... all become easier and much more robust. Marketing is Much easier.
One variance I have often seen is whether a business is marketing a school/system or a person/instructor. The latter is usually the person who is starting their own style/school from scratch or breaking away from an established one. Usually a much taller order that requires more time and input to get established. The first example of extremes that come to mind are the Gracie's and Tiger Rock. 
The Gracie's took a few ideas from various styles and created a hugely effective style/system that has grown exponentially in popularity largely due to proven effectiveness and good marketing.  
Tiger Rock is the largest TKD business in the US. It is the most closed loop, isolated organization I have ever seen. They do their own thing and only their thing. They have zero interaction with the rest of the TKD world and work very hard to keep it that way. Their marketing budget has to be enormous but it does one hell of a good job. It is much more a money making business rather than a MA's school as most of us would think of one. 
Is one right and one wrong? That is for you to decide.


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## Dan Draper (May 27, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> You only joined today....how do you know this person was active on here years ago?...



I would have thought this was obvious, but I guess not. What I am saying is, I know him in real life. In fact, he and I discussed a lot of this stuff just after it happened.


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## Dan Draper (May 27, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Here is the sad part. This issue was brought up over a year ago. There was a discussion about it, which then got a little side tracked... then it got forgotten about. Then it got buried under hundreds of other threads, about other things. Now that you have joined, and responded with your side of the story... the biggest thing you did, was to bring this issue to the front again. Many of the folks in the original discussion had forgotten all about it and had to reread the thread to remember who and what it was about. There are now a bunch of new people getting interested in this thread again... and in those involved. And because there is even more drama.... people will be more curious.
> 
> But, you said that last summer, emails were sent to repair the relationship. As long as efforts are being made to repair the relationship... why are you dragging their dirt back out for everyone to see? Two parties have a dust up with each other... then one or both (I don't really know) tries to repair the relationship and move past it... and here you come dragging out the their old dirt, that everyone else has moved on from and forgotten about. Why try to restart something that doesn't need to be restarted? That's the sad part here. Sometimes its better to let forgotten things be forgotten.



Maybe I brought this up today, but you are incorrect in one thing: where the sadness lies. By the time NYFIGHTSOURCE started this thread, he and the person in question had already been not talking for about a year. If you are going to say it's sad of ME to bring it up a year later, then don't forget where it originated.


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## wab25 (May 27, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> Maybe I brought this up today, but you are incorrect in one thing: where the sadness lies. By the time NYFIGHTSOURCE started this thread, he and the person in question had already been not talking for about a year. If you are going to say it's sad of ME to bring it up a year later, then don't forget where it originated.


This thread was started on Feb 1, 2019. By Feb 4, 2019... this forum had moved on. This thread was forgotten. This history, became buried at that point, as far as this forum, and its participants were concerned. Then, as you said, your guy, the one who got the short end of the stick, tried to repair the relationship and move on. You said he did this last summer, so summer of 2019. This is well after this forum forgot all about this thread and that issue. Then, on May 26, of 2020, you brought this thread, and their dirty laundry out for us all to see again. That's almost a year after your guy took steps to move on and repair the relationship.

These kind of things rarely make anyone involved look good. But hey, this is your guy. If you want to drag out his dirty laundry for the world to see and examine again... I am all for it. Lots of entertainment for me. I love going through other people's dirty laundry... If you hadn't brought it up, look at all the fun I would be missing now. Feel free to keep this going... I paid for my ticket and I want to get my money's worth...

I just hope your guy appreciates you dragging his dirty laundry out again... but that's between you and him.


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## Steve (May 27, 2020)

Man, this is like a telenovella.  The next episode is where we find out that @Dan Draper is really the other guy's (@wingchun100 's?) clone from a lab in Durango.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 27, 2020)

Dan Draper said:


> I would have thought this was obvious, but I guess not. What I am saying is, I know him in real life. In fact, he and I discussed a lot of this stuff just after it happened.


But how did you know about this thread in particular? If you were not on the forum, how would you know to look 18 pages deep on the general martial arts subforum to find a thread where no names are mentioned? Did the nameless member tell you about this thread in particular and ask you to 

And like wab said,why rehash it? From your statements, it seems like they're mending it, and everyone else has forgotten about it. At the very least, coming on here and rehashing issues that your sifu has chosen not to respond to and is trying to move past (and everyone else has) is not a good look on you, as either a student or a new forum member (interesting choice of a first impression as well). Again, unless you were specifically asked to come on here to address the issue.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 27, 2020)

THREAD LOCKED PENDING STAFF REVIEW

William H.
@Monkey Turned Wolf 
MartialTalk Moderator


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