# Finger jab.



## bscastro

How do you guys train the finger jab? Besides practicing with a partner, I go on a heavy bag (lightly) and also use a piece of paper which I fold up and hang from the ceiling (funny thing, I use dental floss to hang it as it is the only thing I had at the time). 

Someone else mentioned using a ping-pong ball suspended from a string. Anyway, what drills, tools, etc. do you use to develop this technique?

Cheers,
Bryan


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## arnisador

We just do partner practice for this technique.


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## sweeper

yeah. parters with focus mits.


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## Battousai

Pot of beans or sand works nice.


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## KennethKu

I am not so sure I can bring myself to jab someone in the eyes.  I understand that many people would say they have no problem with it. May be not.  Until you are faced with a real situation, you really don't know. 

JMHO. The benefits of thinking ahead is, when the situation arises, you would have an alternative plan of action.

For those who intend on practicing the eye jabbing technique, you can have your sparring partner put on goggles and jab away at real target


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## sweeper

well you can always replace the lead eye jab with a normal jab, but the finger jab isn't just used to strike someone's eye's, it's also used as a distraction to obscure the opponant's vission and as a monitor to feal your opponant's movement, as an obstruction to vission it works alot better than a normal jab because you can move it faster (there is less tension) and it takes up more space than the punch in your opponant's field of view.


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## Cthulhu

I've found that Century's B.O.B. (Body Opponent Bag-the big punching/kicking thing that looks like a person on a Wavemaster base) is very good for training eyejabs.  It helps you get around the bridge of the nose and brow without risk of injury if you do accidentally hit them, as well as giving you a nice squishy target to hit.

B.O.B. is great for practicing throat strikes as well.

Cthulhu


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## Samurai

Someone once told me to thing of the finger jab as the tip of a fencing sword.  The movements in JKD are very closely related to the striking motions of a foil fencer....as far as the finger jab goes.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## Cthulhu

Personally, if I train the finger jab as an eye strike, I don't train it as a penetrating strike, but a flicking, speedy hit.  In my opinion, it doesn't take much for an eyejab to be effective.  Touch your own eyeball...now touch it at speed   Doesn't take much.

Cthulhu


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## bscastro

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *Personally, if I train the finger jab as an eye strike, I don't train it as a penetrating strike, but a flicking, speedy hit.  In my opinion, it doesn't take much for an eyejab to be effective.  Touch your own eyeball...now touch it at speed   Doesn't take much.
> 
> Cthulhu *



I got some first hand experience with this recently. In some backyard training with my partner, he accidently poked me in the eye when trying to practice a combination. Although he just touched the eye lightly, I found myself reeling back for a moment before realizing it wasn't so bad.

It doesn't need to permanently blind the person to be effective. In this experience, it would have created an opening for other techniques, such as elbows, headbutts, and knees, as well as a big thai kick to the legs perhaps.

Bryan


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by bscastro _
> 
> *
> I got some first hand experience with this recently. In some backyard training with my partner, he accidently poked me in the eye when trying to practice a combination. Although he just touched the eye lightly, I found myself reeling back for a moment before realizing it wasn't so bad.
> 
> It doesn't need to permanently blind the person to be effective. In this experience, it would have created an opening for other techniques, such as elbows, headbutts, and knees, as well as a big thai kick to the legs perhaps.
> 
> Bryan *



Exactly my point, bscastro!  With that in mind, not only would I like to train the eye jab as a quick, flicking, disorienting attack, but also train the ability to follow up and capitalize on that moment effectively.

Cthulhu


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## sweeper

my instructor pointed out another advantage of the eye jab as well as other "dirty" techs, they give a strong signal that you aren't @#$%ing around, that you mean buisness and if they want to stay in the fihght they are gona come out of it with some dammage.


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## KennethKu

I understand and appreciate the merits of eye jab being effective without necessary poking someone's eyes out.

We have liability issue here. You break someone's knee, the injury is seldom permanent.  Eye sight is a different story. For example, some one snatched your wife or girl friend's purse.or picked your pocket. You confronted him and jabbed him in the eyes. Now  the DA office may charge you with malicious intent to cause serious bodily harm, in other words, excessive use of force.  I know it is perverse. But you know our justice system. The DA is not going to care (nor even comprehends)  if you only mean to "show that you were serious in the fight" or you were only intending to "tab" him in the eyes to stunt him. And the juries won't be hard to convince that jabbing someone in the eyes, has only one intent. 

People tend to react in according to how they train. If you train to jab instinctively, that is very likely to be how you would react.

(I have heard cases of cops returning the weapon to the attacker after they have just wrestled it  away from the attacker, b/c that is how they do it in training, ie returning the fake gun to the training partners.  Hence, in time of stress, they react the same way they do in training.  LMAO )


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## sweeper

yeah probably if I was jumped the first thing that would happen is my foot would shoot into the attackers shin and my fingers would fan and move up as a draw/feint. But the second thing that would happen would probably be me turning and sprinting like mad..  in my class the majority of combinations or finishings end with a way to exit contact range and run like hell or we simply enter hit and run. mugger isn't gona chace me down with a fracture to the tibia.


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## jmdrake

Hello all,

Good ideas on training the finger jab!  While I've never tried the "ping pong" ball I have done the "brass ball hanging from the ceiling fan".   Something else I've done is have my training partner wear a pair of goggles for realistic "live" training.  Just make sure they are off good quality!  I use a pair of shop goggles myself.

Regards,

John M. Drake


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## IFAJKD

Just saw this post and wanted to add somehting. The finger Jab is more effectife as a flick than and all out jab. It tends to scratch and water the eyy causing temporary blindness and pain where as too often the all out jab causes a traumatic push and the eye is stunned but func. It doesn't have the scratching effect. Actually it causes pain deep in the back of your head but you can function. The flick is instant and does stop an attacker. This is not always the case but I have found it to be true more consistently then most other techniques.


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## sweeper

never had a torn cornea but my mother had and she described it as one of the most painfull things she had ever experienced. the jabing method I tought was to try to detach the retna.


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## IFAJKD

The goal is not the detaching of the retna or cornia or necessarily any permenent damage at all, but to cause a painful response that temporarily interferes with their vision so as to allow further entry or pressure with additional attacks. This way the finger jab is used to enter safely. 
Everyone has been poked in the eye at least once. a child can stop a grown man by accidently poking his eye while thay are playing. This is the response we look for and it's just a flick that does it. 
That all said........Of course you can perform a more serious jab to cause serious damage. but This is not the typical use or the most common understanding.

As for your mother ouch


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## arnisador

Detaching the retina seems a tough goal to aim for (so to speak) and scratching the cornea seems more realistic. Of course a hard enough whack may detach the retina but it seems like poor odds.

My instructor emphasizes using the finger jab to gain advantage to get in a serious HKE shot.


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## Cthulhu

Long ago, my first pair of contacts wore out and scratched the surface of the cornea of both eyes. 

It hurt *very* bad.  I don't know about being the worst pain I ever felt, but it was definitely the worst pain I had ever felt from my eyes.

Cthulhu


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## sweeper

I duno, my brother is blind in one eye, he got hit in the face with a soccer ball and his retna partialy detached.


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by bscastro _
> 
> *How do you guys train the finger jab? Besides practicing with a partner, I go on a heavy bag (lightly) and also use a piece of paper which I fold up and hang from the ceiling (funny thing, I use dental floss to hang it as it is the only thing I had at the time).
> 
> Someone else mentioned using a ping-pong ball suspended from a string. Anyway, what drills, tools, etc. do you use to develop this technique?
> 
> Cheers,
> Bryan *


 Try Eagle and tiger claw push-ups. Back hand makiwara training along with single and double finger form sets. Proper forming of the hands ( with hand strength & finger strength) when using a one or two finger jab is the major component of the acutal application.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## IFAJKD

Although perhaps sound for an Eagle Claw system, this is not the JKD finger jab.  JKD is a four finger to one eye flick or blunt benign thrust to create a better window for ABC or another such follow up. Think of it as one of two things.
1) interception
2) destruction
all require follow up as all produce only windows to attack...not the end of one


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## Chiduce

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> 
> *Although perhaps sound for an Eagle Claw system, this is not the JKD finger jab.  JKD is a four finger to one eye flick or blunt benign thrust to create a better window for ABC or another such follow up. Think of it as one of two things.
> 1) interception
> 2) destruction
> all require follow up as all produce only windows to attack...not the end of one *


 I see you point in this type of jab to produce a suki by the opponent. Yet, their is nothing like the basic fingertip push-ups to improve the finger thrust. 
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## IFAJKD

A "suki"    I have no idea what that is. I am just a basic JKD'er.  That being said. I don't think I want an eye jab by you.  (joke)


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> 
> *A "suki"    I have no idea what that is. I am just a basic JKD'er.  That being said. I don't think I want an eye jab by you.  (joke) *



Basically, Japanese for 'opening' or 'opportunity'.

Cthulhu

PS Been awhile!  How's the school going?


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## IFAJKD

Cthulhu My friend:
It has been awhile. I pop in from time to time but I have been going crazy here. School is going good. Been going heavy into the NHB scene and wow has it been a blast as well as enlightening. Been working on my ground game and to keep on subject, I have been victim to many an eye jab on the ground. Tore a ham string and that is a major bummer right now but I can still box and ground fight. Thai boxing suffers. How are you ? opps. I better stop there I'll send you an email
see ya

good to read the new blood here


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## jmdrake

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> 
> *Although perhaps sound for an Eagle Claw system, this is not the JKD finger jab.  JKD is a four finger to one eye flick or blunt benign thrust to create a better window for ABC or another such follow up. Think of it as one of two things.
> 1) interception
> 2) destruction
> all require follow up as all produce only windows to attack...not the end of one *



Hi IFAJKD,

Your analysis of the JKD fingerjab is correct.  But there is an alternate one.  In the book Bruce Lee's Fighting Method: Basic Training Bruce also shows a finger jab with a "spear tip" point.  This can be used for attacking a single eye or for the hollow of the throat.

Regards,

John M. Drake


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## Damian Mavis

I use a B.O.B.    Like someone already said its great for practicing several techniques including finger jab.  Having a realistic looking and sized target really helps increase your accuracy for finger jab.  The only thing I don't like about B.O.B. is I like to also gouge pretty deep and you can't gouge at all on the B.O.B (I know that probably makes KennethKu squirm haha but If I'm faced with a raging 250 pound monster I'm going to try to reach his brain. I'll be far to concerned with my own safety to worry about his heh)

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## KennethKu

Very funny Mr. Mavis  lol

I wouldn't think twice about stabbing someone in the heart, but I have to pass on the eyes.  lol


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## Damian Mavis

Stabbing someone in the heart?!  You're a scary guy!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## KennethKu

Not really.  The circumstances that compell you to use deadly force would be no difference from those that compell you to poke  someone's eyes out.  :asian:


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## Damian Mavis

This is true.  But at least he can still live with his eye taken out... if you start poking people full of holes they tend to die.  HA!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Kong

I use music and the paper target to train the fingerjab. I`ll close my eyes or look away from the target, then on the third beat I`ll check the target and strike on the fourth. It`s great for when you`re training without an instructor or partner, to get a unpredictable, moving target for striking practise. Hitting the eyes of someone in a real selfdefence situation could be extremely difficult with the stress and movements of you`re opponent. 
Finger pushups are great for improving finger strength and would aid anybodys fingerjab I think. Of course if I could master this poking of holes in opponents body technique, I`d definately go with that!


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## Damian Mavis

oh... I thought he was referring to using a knife to stab someone.  If KennethKu meant fingers.... wow.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## KennethKu

Yeah  right! I wish!  On second thought, NO, I don't. To master such skill, one must truly as no life what so ever. lol  

I once read a Chinese Kung Fu text that described such training. Basically, you want to get to the point where you can perform 3 fingers (each hand) push-up. And then, you add incremental weight onto your back while doing the push-up.  Eventually you want to be able to do 100 push up with 100lb of weight added. Granted, those would be Chinese lb, not the Imperial lb. I forgot about the conversion ratio.   And it would take a minimum of 5  years of training to achieve the Iron Eagle Craws (Asians have a thing for grandiose titles and terms) The thing is, you have no idea how credible the information is. The author claimed to be privy of Chinese Hard martial art training secrets.   Who am I to argue with that?  Or I can go out and buy a Bowie knife.


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## Kong

> Eventually you want to be able to do 100 push up with 100lb of weight added


"Iron Eagle Claw" or not, you`d still end up with some pretty hefty fingerpower there  The Bowie probably still would do better with the when it comes to poking holes in peoples though!


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## bob919

luckily the chances of causing permenat blindness are very remote it would take a lot of power to penetrate an eyeball (they are surprisingl tough) just a quiuck jab shouldn't be permenat and alot of fighters will back off after just one jab cause sight means soo much to them


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## yin_yang75

We eye jab 2 ways. 1st is a tap on the eye with finger tips, 2nd is to sweep acrost the eye with the fingers. The thing we work on is execution of the technique because if you miss you can hurt yourself by breaking a finger. Also your hyperextened finger will trap your arm for that half second that we are always looking for.

Any bil gee can be turned into an eye jab and almost any trap can led to an eye jab. We don't train the technique to remove the guys eye, it is a distraction to disorientate and break rhythym. A lot of people have already pointed out that it doesn't take a lot of contact with the eye to rock your world, a 2 year old can take you out with one by accident. 

Of course the Muk is good for this (shameless plug) because you are trapping and if you do the technique wrong it hurts. Also work it out of jun fan boxing drills. 

If your wife is extremely gullible do jik chung chuie drills and tap her forehead to simulate the eye gouge. Of course if you miss and poke her in the eye  you will have to immediately perfect the art of sleeping with one eye open.


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## white belt

I teach the eye jab from a different perspective.  Strengthening of the fingers is fine, but if the attacker is moving toward you and you miss and hit his cheek bone or forehead, your finger/s are now in question of injury and any further optimum use in a protracted struggle.  A second jab with that hands fingers may not feel like an attractive option now.  Grappling with your strong hand is possibly weakened.  Making a closed fist, strong side forward, is possibly hampered.  Turning door knobs to escape, holding a weapon, etc. all possibly compromised.  I teach my students to CROSS THE INDEX AND MIDDLE FINGERS to ensure maximum stability in case of a missed attempt landing on dense skull bone.  Many balk at using the knuckles of a fist, instead of the palm, and the damage done to them if striking the skull.  The old bare knuckle fighters used to "nod" the head down so as to damage the knuckles and fingers of their opponents when possible.  I have read that head punches were much more common after gloves were commonly used due to this prior danger.  How well the joints of the phalanges would fare in single formation is too risky conditioning or not.  The added stability of crossing the two fingers is quite remarkable.  Try the single finger and then the crossed method by jabbing hard on your desk or table.  Which is stronger and safer?  Also think about the ladies hands and their vulnerability compared to most men's fingers.  Doubling up with those long finger nails would be like a dagger, too.  I have trained the muscles in my hands so that my fingers snap rapidly into the Spock/Vulcan "V" formation.  The middle finger crosses over the index.  The third finger crosses over the fourth "pinky" finger".  The "V" fits nicely over the bridge of the nose and you have now near doubled your odds of hitting at least one eye and possibly the jackpot of both.  If you miss, your fingers are much safer for that second attempt or any other needed activity.  If you find this of interest, and your hands/fingers won't go into the "V" position on their own, manually place them into that position a few times a day and they will do it w/o manual assistance in a matter of 2-3 weeks.  Once the muscles can do it, you never loose the ability, if trained with any initial diligence.  The coordination exercises, posted earlier by others, are not hampered and the training with solid objects becomes safer and more enjoyable.  Hope I'm not stepping on any toes with my post, but I have seen broken fingers end fights.  Just look at Wally Jay's finger poppers for one.

Live long and prosper,
white belt


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> luckily the chances of causing permenat blindness are very remote it would take a lot of power to penetrate an eyeball (they are surprisingl tough) just a quiuck jab shouldn't be permenat and alot of fighters will back off after just one jab cause sight means soo much to them



I hope you don't find out the opposite is true under a regrettable circumstance.    FACTS:  You don't need  "punctuation wound " to damage the iris , dislocate the lens and result in blindness!   GOSH! I tend to get really mad when people post medically ignorant garbage!!  They are gonna get readers into serious injury and that is UNFORGIVABLE!!   If you post some useless training tips, that only wastes people's time and effort. But NOT something that can cause serious harm!!


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## arnisador

Indeed, a scratch is sufficient to cause serious damage. Bursting the eyeball is rare.


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## Bob Hubbard

I just want to interject something about eyes and what they can handle...  As a victim of lasik surgury, my eyes no longer have the resiliency they once had.  I've also read where long time contact wearers (those super extended wear ones) also run the risk of a weaker eye, that is more suseptable to injury.  Minor irritants to 'normal' eyes can be extremely painful to me.  An eyeleash that falls in for example can lead to a week of 'CSS' (cant see err, stuff).  

A light poke may not 'pop' the eye, but can cause enough damage to temporarily blind a person, be it for a few seconds, to several days.

With that said, -always- wear a good eye protector when there is the slightest chance of contact to the head.  Better safe, than sorry.

:asian:


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## bob919

i beleive they can repair such damage to the lens but if the eye is burst it will just empty and you'll get eye goo all over your hand.

but i would only eye jab if i had too; multiple armed opponents and i cant run.

the eye jab is a technique only to be used if your life is in danger  or if someone is trying to rape you its not for a school brawl


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## bob919

actually i would probably never use it casue i dont practice it


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## sweeper

uhm..  your eyes are pritty hard to "pop" I mean have you ever disected an eyeball? it is not an easy organ to puncture.

But that doesn't mean it's not easy to injure.


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## Baoquan

Mildly off topic:

Story related to me by the father of a friend, who owns a fairly rough bar in Melbourne....

Mark "Chopper" Read, a notorious australian toe cutter and thug turned "author" (also basis for the movie "Chopper") was in his pub one night, and a local picked him, so they went outside....followed by three of the local's mates. Chopper surveyed the four hopefuls now confronting him, and said;

"Looks like i'm gonna take a hiding here - but i garauntee one of you blokes is gonna lose an eye."

The four guys looked at eachother, and all waited for someone else to have the first go. No one did, so Chopper walked back into the pub and finished his beer. The locals left.

MORAL: our eyes a psychologically vital to us - the thought of losing an eye is enough to make most people think twice about how much they really want to pursue hurting you. Training the finger jab as a means of threatening/irritating the eye is a high percentage manuever for gaining an opening and/or an end in and off itself...if you make it clear you were trying to stick your fingers in  their eyes, they'll probably try to avoid getting close enough for you to do it again.

i personally probably wouldnt try to go in up to the wrist, though.

Cheers

Bao


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## yilisifu

It is good to train to strengthen th fingers, but also try using a Halloween type mask (like a Lone Ranger type mask) suspended to develop accuracy.


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## IMAA

Bouncer fight
January 19 2003 at 7:14 PM Sandman  (no login)

SOMETHING I FOUND AS I WAS SERFING THE NET.  KINDA GOES ALONG THE LINES OF THE BIUJEE ( EYE GOUGING) OF jkd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This one's rather lengthy but I hope you find it entertaining. 
Enter silly season '97. Somewhere around Halloween that year, while working at Denim & Diamonds, we had quite a rash a nasty fights break out in The Mine (the top-40, hip-hop side of the club). We had big brawls and clusters of smaller fights breaking out almost every night we were open that holiday season. Somewhere during all this mayhem there was another, smaller but just as serious, problem brewing. John Signer, 42, of Horn Lake, MS., had become somewhat of a regular to D&D. There was something more menacing about Signer than his 6'4" frame carrying 280 lbs of mass. He had a look about him that got my attention. I don't know if some of the other guys on this forum that are or have worked in a club, like BK, Budoguy, or Eagle can relate to this but sometimes I read someone by the expression or their face and the way they carry themselves, and they just send out bad vibes. I mean you just took one look at this guy and knew he was going to be trouble. In fact, the first thought that came to my mind was he could be a pin-up boy for serial rapists. 
Well it didn't take long to prove my suspicions correct. I started receiving a number of customer and staff complaints on this guy. He made a habit of inviting himself to sit at tables with groups of women, take one of their drinks, and say very lewd a vulgar things to them. The women went from annoyed to frightened by this guy and got up, found me or one of my crew, complained and left. Meanwhile, Mr. Signer made himself scarce and either moved on to another table, a beer-tub, a shooter bar with only one or two female bartenders, and would do the same thing to them, or he had already done this and left before we could catch him. Bear in mind, D&D is the largest night club in the Mid-South and generally has over 4500 patrons covering a 140,000 sq. ft. floor by midnight on any given busy night. We were always overcrowded and usually ran on a skeleton crew and during this particular period we were being swamped with an unusually high number of fights and other problems on the floor, the doors, and in the parking lots. We weren't leaving the club unprotected, but were spread thin enough that this guy slipped through our fingers 2 weekends in a row. 
Yeah, I know, I'm probably giving too much unnecessary detail but I'm just trying to paint a vivid picture for you, so bear with me. Anyhoo, on Nov. 22nd, the Sat. night before Thanksgiving '97, Mr. Signer is up to his usual antics and gets busted red handed this time. I had gone to the men's room in the D&D Bar'n Grill, the third club at D&D, A live band called the Acousticats were playing and had packed in a good crowd. Signer walked in about a minute behind me and while I was making a headcall, he saddled up to the bar ordered a Jack and Coke then says, "Get it? Jack? Like jacking off. Get it?" The bartender ignores him and gives his drink and moves on. Signer evidently became offended that the bartender didn't find him or his poor attempt at humor very amusing and began groping his crotch, flicking his tongue out, and saying very nasty things to the bartender. All of the bartenders had house radios and we monitored their channel in case they had a problem. So as I finished washing up, the call goes out that there's a code yellow in the bar'n grill. I rush out and there's Mr. Pervert standing in front of the register in full form. Groping himself and screaming obscenities at the bartender who is visibly worried and has her radio in one hand a ball bat in the other ordering this guy out and ready to clock him. I rushed in from the side and wrapped up his elbows and pulled him backwards out the bar'n grills' emergency exit. Dean and Tim had responded to the call and the bartender told them I was already dealing with it and we were outside. I took him around the corner of the building, let him go, and as Dean and Tim arrived we told him was not welcome here again and not come back. He argued with us for a minute and another call goes out on the security channel and we've got a code red (major cluster****) at bar 1 on the Country & Western side. Mr. Murphy saw to it that we didn't have time to deal with Mr. Pervert that night but we made our position clear that he was not allowed to come back. The code red turned out to be a yellow about to go red but no one wanted to play because half the crew came out of the woodwork in seconds and everyone settled down and left peacefully. In the back of my mind I was wishing I had made a copy of Mr. Pervert's ID because I knew we hadn't seen the last of him. 

Nov. 27th, Thanksgiving Day, most people are off work for the holiday weekend (except us) and we had a very busy Wed. night. Lot's of young people, lots of problems. Funny how large groups of intoxicated young people can find a way to **** up a good time isn't it? We were geared up and ready to rock on Turkey Day. SSDD, fights by the dozens, drugs by the bushel, yes the silly season had indeed arrived, with all it's festive, holiday ****ing cheer. My regular doormen were absent (all four of them, were either out of town spending the holiday with family or called in at the beginning of the 3 day drunk), and I was pulling double duty from about 7 p.m. 'til 11 p.m. that night working the door with fill-ins. As the crowd started to pour in I felt the new guys on the door were doing well enough that they didn't need a baby-sitter and I needed to get my happy butt out on the floor. About a half hour later a call comes over the radio that there's some big crazy guy masturbating at the main bar in the bar'n grill. "Son of a *****!" No one was close by and we had a dense crowd to negotiate to get there. We were wfo when we hit the entrance to the grill but I already knew what I was going to find before I entered the room. Yep, Mr. Pervert again! Seems he managed to wait until I was off the door (probably watching through binoculars from the parking lot) then got in easy as pie. Surveillance tapes later showed he walked right up, got in line, went to the substitute doormen, showed ID, got his wrist band, and calmly strolled into the bar'n grill back to the same bar, same bartender, and started up where he had left off from the previous weekend. Only this time he had unzipped his fly, and was masturbating underneath the bar top while sitting on the stool talking the same trash to the bartender and again when we arrived she was prepared to (and trying to) cold cock his *** with the slugger. He was actually standing in front of the bar, dick in hand, ejaculating in front of probably a couple of hundred stunned customers with a really sick, disgusting look on his face staring intently at Amy (Shadow by the way), our bartender who's both freaked out and pissed off and swinging the bat over the register screaming like mad. Dean hit him full throttle with a shoulder spear taking him to the floor. Rolled him over, hooked his neck and arm, I got the other arm and once again drug him backwards out the e-exit door. Dean gave the nod, I put my foot on his instep and let go while Dean rolled him. He landed a few feet in front of us and we ordered him to pull up his pants and zip his fly. I personally wasn't too crazy about the idea of touching him again. 

At this point, from the instant Dean hit him in the bar to now, he has not changed expressions, tongue still out disgusting look on his face, and no emotion in his eyes. This guy was out to ****ing Pluto for lunch. We finally got him to comply to our commands, rolled him over, cuffed him, brought him to his feet, and were discussing whether to just copy his ID, make him sign the release form, and let him go to get back on the very busy floor, or deal with this by the book. About this time Mr. Pervert seemed to return from wonderland (hard to describe but kind of like he was asleep with his eyes open and suddenly woke up) and decided he was mad at Dean for the scrapes and bump on his head he was only now seeming to take notice of. He rushed Dean only then realizing he was handcuffed, and Dean just sidestepped, tripped him, and let him fall on his face. So he made our decision for us. I picked him up, pinned his face to the wall and whispered something charming in his ear to convince him not to do that again. So we haul his goofy *** into the club security office and put him the holding cell. Called MPD East Precinct non-emergency for a transport. Copied his ID (Had to fight tooth and nail just to get that) asked him to sign our documents agreeing and understanding that he was barred for life never to return and if he did so he would be taken into custody and charged with criminal trespass and whatever we decided to make up. He responded by spitting on the papers, looking up at me with a twisted smile and giving me a wink. All-righty then. Fortunately S.U. (MPD officer who is also a personal friend) was riding that night and we didn't have to sit with this ****er for too long. Dean and I briefed him on what went down and S.U. runs him through NCIC and finds our Mr. Pervert is not exactly a fine upstanding pillar of the community. In fact he has quite a lengthy list of priors that included two for aggravated assault, another indecent exposure (misdemeanor charge by the way), DUIs out the ***, and a felony weapons charge. Signer was sitting the cell doing the usual apologizing and pleading after PD showed up. He even began to cry and beg but no one had sympathy for this fruitcake. He was compliant with the officer while we changed out cuffs and walked him to the patrol car, all the way until the cop put his hand on his head to put him in the backseat and he just snapped again. U. put him down and sprayed him with OC gas. I've been sprayed so many times by accident that it doesn't bother me that much anymore but this guy took 3 good shots to his eyes and it didn't phase him. The two cops and Dean and I grabbed him up and I was debating on putting him to sleep at this point but just continued to wrestle him into the backseat, since I didn't know U's partner that well at the time and that sort of thing is a big no-no once they're cuffed.So now we have documentation, more witnesses, and a police report, to fall back on in the event that this guy comes back. Which is basically what I told Dean as Mr. Pervert was screaming threats and obscenities through the window of the bluelight taxi as they drove him away for fun filled holiday adventure at suite 201 Poplar Ave., Shelby County's jail and vacation resort. I told Dean "You know it's personal now and he's gonna come back, right?" Dean agreed we had not seen the last of this psycho. "Yeah, he'll be back but we'll be ready.. And we have enough witnesses and paperwork now that if it does get personal, we can keep our asses out of the frying pan." 

Okay, back to business. Two ****ing days later. Saturday night, same weekend. It's been a hell of a holiday weekend so far and we're not even at the witching hour yet. About 10 'til midnight, call goes out, "Charlie One to Sandman", "Sandman, go ahead", "We just got the word from one of the club staff that your biggest fan, Mr. Pervert is in here again and they think he's looking for you", "Copy that. Subject's last known 20?", "Leaving the Country side coming into the Mine at the South entrance by bar 2." "10-4, Sandman and Ranger in route." Dean and I were crossing a dance floor in the Mine near the location Mr. Pervert was last seen when we got the call. We perched a riser to look over the crowd coming in the South entrance. We give a hand signal to the Alpha team in the Mine to tighten up and keep an eye out. Dean and I are back to back scanning through the crowd and I felt someone grab my foot while on the riser. I looked down and it was Signer. He yells something cute like, "Hey mother****er I'm fixin' to hurt your ***.", but didn't get a chance to get it all out because Dean and I bailed off our platform on top of him and we all hit the floor swinging. He takes a shot at me that I slipped and answered with left jab to his chin. Didn't even phase him. Dean is trying to control his left arm to lock it in a chicken wing and pin him for cuffing. He slips, rolls, or just pulls out of it. Whatever, somehow he gets loose and backhands Dean to the floor. Dean is my size and was an ex-Army Ranger and 17 year bouncer then. He told me later, "Man, I don't what to tell you. I've been to two World's Fairs and a goat roping contest and I've never seen any **** like that before. I had his shoulder jammed and he pulled out of it like I was a kid and hit me like a Mack truck!" I hooked the back of his head and jumped into him and gave him a knee to chew on and put him down with a clothesline that bounced his head off the floor, hardwood dance floor that is. It should have at least stunned him but he was trying to get back up as soon as he hit. Like a human rubber ball. I kicked him in the chest and sat him back down and Dean had his cobwebs cleared and was pretty pissed at this point. Dean pounced on him and just started nailing him left, right, left, right. Bam-bam-bam! Dean has a strong punch and from the mount he should have knocked this guy into next week. Signer didn't seem to be stunned or really even affected by Dean's flurry. We both grabbed an arm and hoisted him up and ran backwards with him to the nearest exit door which was to the back alley of the Mine behind bar 4. We bounced him off everything around us once we were behind the bar going down the hall that led to the back alley door. We open the door with the back of his head and rolled him out on the pavement. I ran over and jumped on him and rolled him over to handcuff him and he starts screaming and apologizing again and begging us to let him go. About this time another call goes out on the radio, "Fight in the Mine! Fight in the Mine! Back dance floor! Back dance floor! Code red! Repeat, code red!" Dean and I look at each other and I tell him, "Go to it!" He says, "Have you got this one?" I answer, "Yeah I'm cuffing him now, I've got it. Now go!" Dean is gone is a blink and somehow I've become distracted just enough for Signer's wrist to slip free with my cuffs attached and he tucked both arms under his body. This is where I should have just done things the easy way and said, "Okay, goodnight *******." , and put him to sleep. 

But no, like an idiot I fought with him to get control of his arm and again, somewhere in the struggle, this ****er manages to turn over on his side, get his left hand free again and backhand me with my own cuffs. Caught me good right in the mouth with my own ****ing cuffs. Hurt like hell, another tooth is gone, and blood is pouring from my mouth, but everything is still working. Now I'm tasting my own blood, getting really pissed, and ready to go to war with this ****er. I don't know why but it's always been that way for me. I guess it's partly due to the passive nature Aikido instills in me but I don't really want to hurt anyone in a fight if I don't have to but once I'm hurt I go from calm to kill mode. Maybe a primal defensive mechanism that switches on after an injury. So anyway, I got up stepped back to regroup and spit and shake off the pain for a second and said, "Okay mother****er, you want to do things the hard way? You wanted to hurt me right? Come get some!", or something poetic like that. I decided I wanted him back on his feet; he was too strong and dangerous to be on the ground with and he would be easier to deal with with both of us standing, so I thought. Mr. Pervert scrambled to his feet and I thought he was ready to accept my invitation but he turned his back to me and started to walk away. I'm thinking, "What the **** is going on now with this crazy ****er?" So I rush in and grab his left shoulder to spin him while yelling something like, "Oh no you don't Mr. mother****er!" ****ing pussy tried to backhand me again which was anticipated and I slipped that shot but he whirled all the way around and caught me in the throat with an open hand and sent me to the ground with him on top of me. Now we're back on the ground, me on the bottom this time, he's past my guard, knees by each hip and he's got both of his paws wrapped around my neck choking the piss out of me and slamming the back of my head into the pavement. I remember clearly to this day, mainly because I had to tell story over and over to my crew, the club owner, club staff, of course the cops, an inspector in a follow up, my attorney, the D.A., the judge, and everybody and their brother before it was over, thinking to myself, "How in the **** did I get myself into this ****?!" (By the way. Shadow just pointed out that I've been using the word "****" excessively in this story. My apologies,it was an intense situation and sometimes I'm not a gentleman.) 

So anyhoo, back to the mayhem. I'm getting choked pretty severely and my head is split open and getting pounded into the pavement. I realize both my hands are free and both of his are occupied. A cynical came over me, "Silly rabbit" or so I thought. So I jabbed him in the right eye. Nothing. Okay. Left eye. Nothing again. I mean no reaction at all. Still choking me. Still slamming my head into the asphalt and not even hinting at slowing down. Both eyes, same time. I worked my right thumb into his left socket up to the first joint and tried to smash the cornea. That got his attention and he jerked his head away. I pulled down into his collar bones and drove a knee into his groin. Nothing, still going. He's got both my airway and carotids pressed good now and I know I'm in serious trouble if I pass out. I've made a lot of 5-alarm mistakes up to this point but I did not hit the panic button. I kneed him again, then went back into his eyes and throat and kneed him again, and I finally hurt him enough to where he stopped slamming my head but I could not get him to let go. I tried small joint attack on his right pinky and laid it over to dislocation before he loosened his grip with that hand. I'm getting very light headed and don't have much time left. I snaked my hand between his arms, punched him in the throat, gave his left arm an outside arm wrap, broke his grip, popped him in the chin, pulled on the top of his hair and cranked on his arm. He punches me in the cheek and nose with his left hand but now I can breathe. So I've still got his right arm wrapped and cranked tight and his head pulled down so he can't get much speed behind his strikes. I pulled him down within range gave him a head butt to the nose and looked up at the nose in the streetlight and saw the blood pouring from his eyes and nose and dripping down on me and thought "Oh **** it, why not?!", and still with a handful of hair, pulled him back down, turned my head slightly and bit into the bridge of his nose and held on. He thrashed and squirmed and really started pounding on me with short jabs with his left hand. He got free, ripped his hair out, and fell over to the right side going with the arm-wrap. Just the break I was looking for. I bridged my hips and torqued his arm and pulled him over. I finally got this ****er off me and started gaining some ground on stopping him. So I assumed the mount, let go of his arm, went for his throat (turn-about is fair play) and pinned his head down and let loose with a right hand to the nose/cheek area, another to his chin just to turn his head and get the angle right, and dropped the hammer on his temple. His hands let go and I stopped. He was finally out. He had multiple facial fractures and lacerated arteries. Blood was pouring out of him. I rolled him over to cuff him and he started coughing in the reddish-orange puddle that had formed under his face. He was still out but stirring. I just sat on his back, got on the radio, "Sandman to Ranger or Alpha team, respond." Dean answered back "Ranger, go ahead." "Well, it was a code red 30 seconds ago but we're back in the green now. Better get on the horn and get MPD and the paramedics rolling. Respond to back alley of the Mine." So the available crew is in the back alley in seconds and I'm still sitting on Mr. Pervert having a cigarette and nursing a broken hand. He's still out. Kim (Charlie 1) , one of the female bouncers on the crew, was an EMT as well. She checked him for vitals and she said he was going into shock and barely breathing. We sat him up against the brick wall she got a blanket from her truck which was close by. The paras arrived first and began giving him medical attention. MPD arrived at the point. His jaw, nose, cheek, and zygomatic bone were broken on the left side. He had a massive hemotoma and swelling behind his left eye and it came forward and completely out of the socket as they loaded him into the ambulance. He was pronounced critical and had to be rushed to the Med (trauma center). Some of the cops on the scene knew me but most didn't and were questioning my story and suspected I might have hit him with my pistol, a flashlight, or some blunt object saying that I couldn't have done that kind of damage with just my hands. The cops started questioning me at about 10 after midnight and went on for another hour. 

I finally told the little smart *** lieutenant "Look at my report tomorrow. I've got to get some ice on this hand , get my head sewed up, and get back on the floor. If you're going to charge me with something go ahead, if not I'm not giving you any more information for your report. If I'm going to be interrogated I want my attorney present." They backed off and let me go ice my hand and tape it up, I taped and plugged my nose, Kim did my stitches, and I changed shirts and went back on the floor. I ended up with 8 stitches, lost a molar, broke two knuckles in my right hand, a broken nose, and just minor cuts and bruises on my face and neck. Mr. Signer, on the other hand, was not so lucky. He was knocked out at approx. midnight, went comatose, and did not come out of it until 3 a.m., 2 weeks later. When he came out of the coma he stayed at the ICU for a few more days before he was taken to 201 for processing. When h made bond, he got some hotshot civil suit attorney. He concocted a wild story that he was just minding his own business and attempting to leave the club (you know, the place he was barred from for life for masturbating to a bartender, who just happened to be my fiance' at the time) and the entire crew grabbed him and drug into the back alley and held him down while I kicked him in the face for no reason. Got to love it. So it drug out for 2 ½ years and when it was about to go upstairs to the grand jury the D.A. meets with our attorneys and his new attorney and the new guy says "I've had it. I don't want to pursue this any further. He's changed his story 3 times already and to be quite honest if I call him to the stand, I don't know who will be there." The rest of us look like monkeys working calculus and ask what he means. "Well, it seems he's a classic schizophrenic. He's got real multiple personalities. Three that I'm aware of. He's certifiable and needs to be in an asylum." So Mr. Signer got himself another attorney before it was over, he was suing for $2 million by the way, and got all geared up to go to trial and waste tax payers dollars on a case he had no chance of winning and the trial date was set for mid-May 2000 and he had a heart attack and died that April. But while he was alive he was one tough, crazy, son of a *****. I'm not kidding, this guy so ****ing strong I couldn't do any with him while he was on top of me but try to seriously injure him and he did not respond to pain worth a damn. I hit him with everything I had and it hardly phased him. Like a vicious monster 1%er biker jacked on PCP. There was nothing normal about this creep. Oh well, don't have to worry about him anymore. Well, hope you enjoyed the story. The wife says I should write a book after I retire, which (she says) will probably be in the next couple of years. Ha! Yeah right. Take it easy. 
Later, 
Sandman out.


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## Mormegil

Hi, just my two cents worth (first post too).

i read a post about crossing your fingers so you don't injure your finger during the jab.

I'm no expert, but I like the idea of light brush as the jab.  As such, I prefer to have my fingers bent.  It doesn't take a lot to get a reaction touching somebody's eye.  I like the bent fingers as they seem less likely to get jammed if you hit the brow, cheekbone, or even nose.  Kind of "spring energy" in the fingers.

Never tried this in real life though, so what do I know?


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## sweeper

that's how I hit a focus mit, with a fan of fingers, slightly bent.


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## pesilat

I don't know if the ping pong idea was from me or not, but I have mentioned it on other discussion forums.

Personally, I like eye jabs. But my goal isn't to put my finger in someone's eye -- if it happens, though, I won't complain, I'll just take advantage of the situation.

For me, it just falls into the category of self-defensive fighting.

Preferably, I can avoid the situation completely. That's the best self-defense I know.

But, failing that, if I have to get in a fight, I want to finish it as quickly as possible and go home -- not to the hospital, morgue, or jail. So, for me, self-defense means "thinking ahead" (as someone else in this thread posted).

However, if I have to fight, then the time for "thinking ahead" is done. It's time to end the fight as quickly as possible.

The most reliably means of doing this are to attack the opponent's vision, air, and mobility. If he can't see, breathe, or move well then he's at a disadvantage.

So, when I throw an eye jab, there are a few possible outcomes:
I land the shot and temporarily or permanently blind the guy
I miss and hit near the eye which will, usually, result in him flinching and/or blinking; he's temporarily blinded
He flinches and causes me to miss; see the previous point
He parries or otherwise deals with the attack in such a way that his vision isn't obscured
[/list=1]

So, that means there's a 1 in 4 chance that his vision isn't disturbed. That's pretty good odds and makes this a *very* useful attack.

Also, there are other attacks to vision aside from the jab in the eye. Just slapping your hand over his eye(s) is useful.

Attacking his air means either his throat or his midsection. The throat is the more reliable route, but also a more difficult target to hit and generally better protected by blocking/moving. Also, striking to the trachea opens the possibility of killing the guy which may not be your intent. However, a strike to the side of the trachea will often affect their air and often hit the Vega nerve. This can cause some interesting effects if it's traumatized.

Attacking to the midsection means the solar plexus or the ribs. You're trying to affect either the diaphram or the lungs. Negatives here are that the solar plexus isn't always easy to find (mine, for instance, is higher than most peoples and a straight shot will almost never affect it). Also, the ribs are pretty durable. Their intended job, after all, is to protect the major internal organs. This is why power shots like elbows and knees are really useful for striking to the midsection.

Attacking the mobility is a pretty big area. It could mean any number of things:
disrupting their balance
stepping on their foot so they can't move it
dislocating their knee
raking your foot down their shin
stomping on their foot
breaking bones in their foot
injuring the hip (this one's rough but possible)
etc.

To me, these are my number one principles of attack in self-defense if I have to fight.

These principles can be applied at varying levels of intent. By slapping my hand over someone's eye, I can attack their vision with very little risk of seriously injuring them. By trapping their feet, I can attack their mobility with very little risk of serious injury to them (unless they hit something when they fall down). By landing a couple of solid body shots, I can attack their air without much risk of seriously injuring them. All of this can be used to set up locks or chokes if I'm looking to restrain them. Or to create an opening through which I can escape the situation.

Or, if I think the situation demands it, I can jab and gouge their eyes, attack their trachea, go for knee dislocations and foot stomps to try to break the bones in their foot.

These principles can be applied to any level of situation and are very reliable when it comes to finishing the fight quickly.

Huh ... I think I got a little off track, didn't I?

Oh well, I hope you all find it entertaining 

Mike


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## MNKaliGroupRayW

A note on Schizophrenics...

My younger brother was diagnosed with Schizophrenia about two or three years ago.  Luckily he is fairly normal and lives a very productive life AS long as takes his medications. Schizophrenics are not anymore violent or dangerous than the same percentage of the general public. Unfortunately one of the side affects of some anti-psychotics is weight gain, so you see some of the mentally ill individualls getting pretty big. And if they turn violent that can spell trouble because of their altered perceptions of what is happening, and their inablility to respond to stimuli in a correct manor. 

Many times the ill schizophrenic will not understand what is going on, because their brain is no longer propperly processing stimuli and thoughts correctly, this typically manifests itself in higher states of anxiety and in extreme cases paranoia, and if acted out - violet flight or fight responses.

Of course if they have criminal history or tendancies this only worsens an already bad situation. You can find yourself running into a assailent who not only won't listen to normal verbal and physical persuasion, but seeks to do you genuine harm.

In either case if an obviously mentally Ill person runs across your path and is having an episode that may put you, them or others in danger it is important to:

1. Protect yourself if possible by avoiding confrontation or contact.
2. Notify a LEO as soon as possible. Usually the law enforcement community in your area will already be aware of mentally ill people in their area, and are the most likely people to be able to propperly diffuse or apprehend the person. 

And if you are going to have to physically handle this as security or bouncer, you will likely need to have numerical supperiority to handle a full blown psychotic. It is no coincidense that mental health orderlies respond in two or more when ever possible. A one on one senario is dangerous to try to control.

(Although in this instance little could have been done differently, due to the obvious mental instablility, and the fact that although discusting, the offending freak wasn't being violent yet,  it may have been worth waiting for at least one other bouncer to show up!)

My main point is to ensure that people are aware that MOST mentally ill people are not going to cause you serious problems if handled propperly. The majority of these people are simply confused and scared to a degree you can't imagine!

But serious caution should be taken when dealing with people having psychotic episodes. The normal rules don't apply if things go violent.

Those of you in Security work should check with your local police departments for tips for workers who deal with the mentally ill public.


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## bob919

> _Originally posted by IMAA _
> *Bouncer fight
> January 19 2003 at 7:14 PM Sandman  (no login)
> 
> SOMETHING I FOUND AS I WAS SERFING THE NET.  KINDA GOES ALONG THE LINES OF THE BIUJEE ( EYE GOUGING) OF jkd
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> This one's rather lengthy but I hope you find it entertaining.
> Enter silly season '97. Somewhere around Halloween that year, while working at Denim & Diamonds, we had quite a rash a nasty fights break out in The Mine (the top-40, hip-hop side of the club). We had big brawls and clusters of smaller fights breaking out almost every night we were open that holiday season. Somewhere during all this mayhem there was another, smaller but just as serious, problem brewing. John Signer, 42, of Horn Lake, MS., had become somewhat of a regular to D&D. There was something more menacing about Signer than his 6'4" frame carrying 280 lbs of mass. He had a look about him that got my attention. I don't know if some of the other guys on this forum that are or have worked in a club, like BK, Budoguy, or Eagle can relate to this but sometimes I read someone by the expression or their face and the way they carry themselves, and they just send out bad vibes. I mean you just took one look at this guy and knew he was going to be trouble. In fact, the first thought that came to my mind was he could be a pin-up boy for serial rapists.
> Well it didn't take long to prove my suspicions correct. I started receiving a number of customer and staff complaints on this guy. He made a habit of inviting himself to sit at tables with groups of women, take one of their drinks, and say very lewd a vulgar things to them. The women went from annoyed to frightened by this guy and got up, found me or one of my crew, complained and left. Meanwhile, Mr. Signer made himself scarce and either moved on to another table, a beer-tub, a shooter bar with only one or two female bartenders, and would do the same thing to them, or he had already done this and left before we could catch him. Bear in mind, D&D is the largest night club in the Mid-South and generally has over 4500 patrons covering a 140,000 sq. ft. floor by midnight on any given busy night. We were always overcrowded and usually ran on a skeleton crew and during this particular period we were being swamped with an unusually high number of fights and other problems on the floor, the doors, and in the parking lots. We weren't leaving the club unprotected, but were spread thin enough that this guy slipped through our fingers 2 weekends in a row.
> Yeah, I know, I'm probably giving too much unnecessary detail but I'm just trying to paint a vivid picture for you, so bear with me. Anyhoo, on Nov. 22nd, the Sat. night before Thanksgiving '97, Mr. Signer is up to his usual antics and gets busted red handed this time. I had gone to the men's room in the D&D Bar'n Grill, the third club at D&D, A live band called the Acousticats were playing and had packed in a good crowd. Signer walked in about a minute behind me and while I was making a headcall, he saddled up to the bar ordered a Jack and Coke then says, "Get it? Jack? Like jacking off. Get it?" The bartender ignores him and gives his drink and moves on. Signer evidently became offended that the bartender didn't find him or his poor attempt at humor very amusing and began groping his crotch, flicking his tongue out, and saying very nasty things to the bartender. All of the bartenders had house radios and we monitored their channel in case they had a problem. So as I finished washing up, the call goes out that there's a code yellow in the bar'n grill. I rush out and there's Mr. Pervert standing in front of the register in full form. Groping himself and screaming obscenities at the bartender who is visibly worried and has her radio in one hand a ball bat in the other ordering this guy out and ready to clock him. I rushed in from the side and wrapped up his elbows and pulled him backwards out the bar'n grills' emergency exit. Dean and Tim had responded to the call and the bartender told them I was already dealing with it and we were outside. I took him around the corner of the building, let him go, and as Dean and Tim arrived we told him was not welcome here again and not come back. He argued with us for a minute and another call goes out on the security channel and we've got a code red (major cluster****) at bar 1 on the Country & Western side. Mr. Murphy saw to it that we didn't have time to deal with Mr. Pervert that night but we made our position clear that he was not allowed to come back. The code red turned out to be a yellow about to go red but no one wanted to play because half the crew came out of the woodwork in seconds and everyone settled down and left peacefully. In the back of my mind I was wishing I had made a copy of Mr. Pervert's ID because I knew we hadn't seen the last of him.
> 
> Nov. 27th, Thanksgiving Day, most people are off work for the holiday weekend (except us) and we had a very busy Wed. night. Lot's of young people, lots of problems. Funny how large groups of intoxicated young people can find a way to **** up a good time isn't it? We were geared up and ready to rock on Turkey Day. SSDD, fights by the dozens, drugs by the bushel, yes the silly season had indeed arrived, with all it's festive, holiday ****ing cheer. My regular doormen were absent (all four of them, were either out of town spending the holiday with family or called in at the beginning of the 3 day drunk), and I was pulling double duty from about 7 p.m. 'til 11 p.m. that night working the door with fill-ins. As the crowd started to pour in I felt the new guys on the door were doing well enough that they didn't need a baby-sitter and I needed to get my happy butt out on the floor. About a half hour later a call comes over the radio that there's some big crazy guy masturbating at the main bar in the bar'n grill. "Son of a *****!" No one was close by and we had a dense crowd to negotiate to get there. We were wfo when we hit the entrance to the grill but I already knew what I was going to find before I entered the room. Yep, Mr. Pervert again! Seems he managed to wait until I was off the door (probably watching through binoculars from the parking lot) then got in easy as pie. Surveillance tapes later showed he walked right up, got in line, went to the substitute doormen, showed ID, got his wrist band, and calmly strolled into the bar'n grill back to the same bar, same bartender, and started up where he had left off from the previous weekend. Only this time he had unzipped his fly, and was masturbating underneath the bar top while sitting on the stool talking the same trash to the bartender and again when we arrived she was prepared to (and trying to) cold cock his *** with the slugger. He was actually standing in front of the bar, dick in hand, ejaculating in front of probably a couple of hundred stunned customers with a really sick, disgusting look on his face staring intently at Amy (Shadow by the way), our bartender who's both freaked out and pissed off and swinging the bat over the register screaming like mad. Dean hit him full throttle with a shoulder spear taking him to the floor. Rolled him over, hooked his neck and arm, I got the other arm and once again drug him backwards out the e-exit door. Dean gave the nod, I put my foot on his instep and let go while Dean rolled him. He landed a few feet in front of us and we ordered him to pull up his pants and zip his fly. I personally wasn't too crazy about the idea of touching him again.
> 
> At this point, from the instant Dean hit him in the bar to now, he has not changed expressions, tongue still out disgusting look on his face, and no emotion in his eyes. This guy was out to ****ing Pluto for lunch. We finally got him to comply to our commands, rolled him over, cuffed him, brought him to his feet, and were discussing whether to just copy his ID, make him sign the release form, and let him go to get back on the very busy floor, or deal with this by the book. About this time Mr. Pervert seemed to return from wonderland (hard to describe but kind of like he was asleep with his eyes open and suddenly woke up) and decided he was mad at Dean for the scrapes and bump on his head he was only now seeming to take notice of. He rushed Dean only then realizing he was handcuffed, and Dean just sidestepped, tripped him, and let him fall on his face. So he made our decision for us. I picked him up, pinned his face to the wall and whispered something charming in his ear to convince him not to do that again. So we haul his goofy *** into the club security office and put him the holding cell. Called MPD East Precinct non-emergency for a transport. Copied his ID (Had to fight tooth and nail just to get that) asked him to sign our documents agreeing and understanding that he was barred for life never to return and if he did so he would be taken into custody and charged with criminal trespass and whatever we decided to make up. He responded by spitting on the papers, looking up at me with a twisted smile and giving me a wink. All-righty then. Fortunately S.U. (MPD officer who is also a personal friend) was riding that night and we didn't have to sit with this ****er for too long. Dean and I briefed him on what went down and S.U. runs him through NCIC and finds our Mr. Pervert is not exactly a fine upstanding pillar of the community. In fact he has quite a lengthy list of priors that included two for aggravated assault, another indecent exposure (misdemeanor charge by the way), DUIs out the ***, and a felony weapons charge. Signer was sitting the cell doing the usual apologizing and pleading after PD showed up. He even began to cry and beg but no one had sympathy for this fruitcake. He was compliant with the officer while we changed out cuffs and walked him to the patrol car, all the way until the cop put his hand on his head to put him in the backseat and he just snapped again. U. put him down and sprayed him with OC gas. I've been sprayed so many times by accident that it doesn't bother me that much anymore but this guy took 3 good shots to his eyes and it didn't phase him. The two cops and Dean and I grabbed him up and I was debating on putting him to sleep at this point but just continued to wrestle him into the backseat, since I didn't know U's partner that well at the time and that sort of thing is a big no-no once they're cuffed.So now we have documentation, more witnesses, and a police report, to fall back on in the event that this guy comes back. Which is basically what I told Dean as Mr. Pervert was screaming threats and obscenities through the window of the bluelight taxi as they drove him away for fun filled holiday adventure at suite 201 Poplar Ave., Shelby County's jail and vacation resort. I told Dean "You know it's personal now and he's gonna come back, right?" Dean agreed we had not seen the last of this psycho. "Yeah, he'll be back but we'll be ready.. And we have enough witnesses and paperwork now that if it does get personal, we can keep our asses out of the frying pan."
> 
> Okay, back to business. Two ****ing days later. Saturday night, same weekend. It's been a hell of a holiday weekend so far and we're not even at the witching hour yet. About 10 'til midnight, call goes out, "Charlie One to Sandman", "Sandman, go ahead", "We just got the word from one of the club staff that your biggest fan, Mr. Pervert is in here again and they think he's looking for you", "Copy that. Subject's last known 20?", "Leaving the Country side coming into the Mine at the South entrance by bar 2." "10-4, Sandman and Ranger in route." Dean and I were crossing a dance floor in the Mine near the location Mr. Pervert was last seen when we got the call. We perched a riser to look over the crowd coming in the South entrance. We give a hand signal to the Alpha team in the Mine to tighten up and keep an eye out. Dean and I are back to back scanning through the crowd and I felt someone grab my foot while on the riser. I looked down and it was Signer. He yells something cute like, "Hey mother****er I'm fixin' to hurt your ***.", but didn't get a chance to get it all out because Dean and I bailed off our platform on top of him and we all hit the floor swinging. He takes a shot at me that I slipped and answered with left jab to his chin. Didn't even phase him. Dean is trying to control his left arm to lock it in a chicken wing and pin him for cuffing. He slips, rolls, or just pulls out of it. Whatever, somehow he gets loose and backhands Dean to the floor. Dean is my size and was an ex-Army Ranger and 17 year bouncer then. He told me later, "Man, I don't what to tell you. I've been to two World's Fairs and a goat roping contest and I've never seen any **** like that before. I had his shoulder jammed and he pulled out of it like I was a kid and hit me like a Mack truck!" I hooked the back of his head and jumped into him and gave him a knee to chew on and put him down with a clothesline that bounced his head off the floor, hardwood dance floor that is. It should have at least stunned him but he was trying to get back up as soon as he hit. Like a human rubber ball. I kicked him in the chest and sat him back down and Dean had his cobwebs cleared and was pretty pissed at this point. Dean pounced on him and just started nailing him left, right, left, right. Bam-bam-bam! Dean has a strong punch and from the mount he should have knocked this guy into next week. Signer didn't seem to be stunned or really even affected by Dean's flurry. We both grabbed an arm and hoisted him up and ran backwards with him to the nearest exit door which was to the back alley of the Mine behind bar 4. We bounced him off everything around us once we were behind the bar going down the hall that led to the back alley door. We open the door with the back of his head and rolled him out on the pavement. I ran over and jumped on him and rolled him over to handcuff him and he starts screaming and apologizing again and begging us to let him go. About this time another call goes out on the radio, "Fight in the Mine! Fight in the Mine! Back dance floor! Back dance floor! Code red! Repeat, code red!" Dean and I look at each other and I tell him, "Go to it!" He says, "Have you got this one?" I answer, "Yeah I'm cuffing him now, I've got it. Now go!" Dean is gone is a blink and somehow I've become distracted just enough for Signer's wrist to slip free with my cuffs attached and he tucked both arms under his body. This is where I should have just done things the easy way and said, "Okay, goodnight *******." , and put him to sleep.
> 
> But no, like an idiot I fought with him to get control of his arm and again, somewhere in the struggle, this ****er manages to turn over on his side, get his left hand free again and backhand me with my own cuffs. Caught me good right in the mouth with my own ****ing cuffs. Hurt like hell, another tooth is gone, and blood is pouring from my mouth, but everything is still working. Now I'm tasting my own blood, getting really pissed, and ready to go to war with this ****er. I don't know why but it's always been that way for me. I guess it's partly due to the passive nature Aikido instills in me but I don't really want to hurt anyone in a fight if I don't have to but once I'm hurt I go from calm to kill mode. Maybe a primal defensive mechanism that switches on after an injury. So anyway, I got up stepped back to regroup and spit and shake off the pain for a second and said, "Okay mother****er, you want to do things the hard way? You wanted to hurt me right? Come get some!", or something poetic like that. I decided I wanted him back on his feet; he was too strong and dangerous to be on the ground with and he would be easier to deal with with both of us standing, so I thought. Mr. Pervert scrambled to his feet and I thought he was ready to accept my invitation but he turned his back to me and started to walk away. I'm thinking, "What the **** is going on now with this crazy ****er?" So I rush in and grab his left shoulder to spin him while yelling something like, "Oh no you don't Mr. mother****er!" ****ing ***** tried to backhand me again which was anticipated and I slipped that shot but he whirled all the way around and caught me in the throat with an open hand and sent me to the ground with him on top of me. Now we're back on the ground, me on the bottom this time, he's past my guard, knees by each hip and he's got both of his paws wrapped around my neck choking the piss out of me and slamming the back of my head into the pavement. I remember clearly to this day, mainly because I had to tell story over and over to my crew, the club owner, club staff, of course the cops, an inspector in a follow up, my attorney, the D.A., the judge, and everybody and their brother before it was over, thinking to myself, "How in the **** did I get myself into this ****?!" (By the way. Shadow just pointed out that I've been using the word "****" excessively in this story. My apologies,it was an intense situation and sometimes I'm not a gentleman.)
> 
> So anyhoo, back to the mayhem. I'm getting choked pretty severely and my head is split open and getting pounded into the pavement. I realize both my hands are free and both of his are occupied. A cynical came over me, "Silly rabbit" or so I thought. So I jabbed him in the right eye. Nothing. Okay. Left eye. Nothing again. I mean no reaction at all. Still choking me. Still slamming my head into the asphalt and not even hinting at slowing down. Both eyes, same time. I worked my right thumb into his left socket up to the first joint and tried to smash the cornea. That got his attention and he jerked his head away. I pulled down into his collar bones and drove a knee into his groin. Nothing, still going. He's got both my airway and carotids pressed good now and I know I'm in serious trouble if I pass out. I've made a lot of 5-alarm mistakes up to this point but I did not hit the panic button. I kneed him again, then went back into his eyes and throat and kneed him again, and I finally hurt him enough to where he stopped slamming my head but I could not get him to let go. I tried small joint attack on his right pinky and laid it over to dislocation before he loosened his grip with that hand. I'm getting very light headed and don't have much time left. I snaked my hand between his arms, punched him in the throat, gave his left arm an outside arm wrap, broke his grip, popped him in the chin, pulled on the top of his hair and cranked on his arm. He punches me in the cheek and nose with his left hand but now I can breathe. So I've still got his right arm wrapped and cranked tight and his head pulled down so he can't get much speed behind his strikes. I pulled him down within range gave him a head butt to the nose and looked up at the nose in the streetlight and saw the blood pouring from his eyes and nose and dripping down on me and thought "Oh **** it, why not?!", and still with a handful of hair, pulled him back down, turned my head slightly and bit into the bridge of his nose and held on. He thrashed and squirmed and really started pounding on me with short jabs with his left hand. He got free, ripped his hair out, and fell over to the right side going with the arm-wrap. Just the break I was looking for. I bridged my hips and torqued his arm and pulled him over. I finally got this ****er off me and started gaining some ground on stopping him. So I assumed the mount, let go of his arm, went for his throat (turn-about is fair play) and pinned his head down and let loose with a right hand to the nose/cheek area, another to his chin just to turn his head and get the angle right, and dropped the hammer on his temple. His hands let go and I stopped. He was finally out. He had multiple facial fractures and lacerated arteries. Blood was pouring out of him. I rolled him over to cuff him and he started coughing in the reddish-orange puddle that had formed under his face. He was still out but stirring. I just sat on his back, got on the radio, "Sandman to Ranger or Alpha team, respond." Dean answered back "Ranger, go ahead." "Well, it was a code red 30 seconds ago but we're back in the green now. Better get on the horn and get MPD and the paramedics rolling. Respond to back alley of the Mine." So the available crew is in the back alley in seconds and I'm still sitting on Mr. Pervert having a cigarette and nursing a broken hand. He's still out. Kim (Charlie 1) , one of the female bouncers on the crew, was an EMT as well. She checked him for vitals and she said he was going into shock and barely breathing. We sat him up against the brick wall she got a blanket from her truck which was close by. The paras arrived first and began giving him medical attention. MPD arrived at the point. His jaw, nose, cheek, and zygomatic bone were broken on the left side. He had a massive hemotoma and swelling behind his left eye and it came forward and completely out of the socket as they loaded him into the ambulance. He was pronounced critical and had to be rushed to the Med (trauma center). Some of the cops on the scene knew me but most didn't and were questioning my story and suspected I might have hit him with my pistol, a flashlight, or some blunt object saying that I couldn't have done that kind of damage with just my hands. The cops started questioning me at about 10 after midnight and went on for another hour.
> 
> I finally told the little smart *** lieutenant "Look at my report tomorrow. I've got to get some ice on this hand , get my head sewed up, and get back on the floor. If you're going to charge me with something go ahead, if not I'm not giving you any more information for your report. If I'm going to be interrogated I want my attorney present." They backed off and let me go ice my hand and tape it up, I taped and plugged my nose, Kim did my stitches, and I changed shirts and went back on the floor. I ended up with 8 stitches, lost a molar, broke two knuckles in my right hand, a broken nose, and just minor cuts and bruises on my face and neck. Mr. Signer, on the other hand, was not so lucky. He was knocked out at approx. midnight, went comatose, and did not come out of it until 3 a.m., 2 weeks later. When he came out of the coma he stayed at the ICU for a few more days before he was taken to 201 for processing. When h made bond, he got some hotshot civil suit attorney. He concocted a wild story that he was just minding his own business and attempting to leave the club (you know, the place he was barred from for life for masturbating to a bartender, who just happened to be my fiance' at the time) and the entire crew grabbed him and drug into the back alley and held him down while I kicked him in the face for no reason. Got to love it. So it drug out for 2 ½ years and when it was about to go upstairs to the grand jury the D.A. meets with our attorneys and his new attorney and the new guy says "I've had it. I don't want to pursue this any further. He's changed his story 3 times already and to be quite honest if I call him to the stand, I don't know who will be there." The rest of us look like monkeys working calculus and ask what he means. "Well, it seems he's a classic schizophrenic. He's got real multiple personalities. Three that I'm aware of. He's certifiable and needs to be in an asylum." So Mr. Signer got himself another attorney before it was over, he was suing for $2 million by the way, and got all geared up to go to trial and waste tax payers dollars on a case he had no chance of winning and the trial date was set for mid-May 2000 and he had a heart attack and died that April. But while he was alive he was one tough, crazy, son of a *****. I'm not kidding, this guy so ****ing strong I couldn't do any with him while he was on top of me but try to seriously injure him and he did not respond to pain worth a damn. I hit him with everything I had and it hardly phased him. Like a vicious monster 1%er biker jacked on PCP. There was nothing normal about this creep. Oh well, don't have to worry about him anymore. Well, hope you enjoyed the story. The wife says I should write a book after I retire, which (she says) will probably be in the next couple of years. Ha! Yeah right. Take it easy.
> Later,
> Sandman out. *



he sounds as if he was kind of unstoppable its hard to belive he kept fighting afer all those injuries are you sure he wasnt on something  cause he barely sounds human


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## jmdrake

Hello all,

A couple of observations about the "bouncer" post.  First as someone else mentioned the purpose of the bil jee as I've always seen it taught in JKD is to temporarily blind the opponent.  This is usually done from a stand up context.  If the opponent can't see then it doesn't MATTER how impervious to pain he is in that context.  On the other hand if you're already on the ground he doesn't NEED to see. 

My second observation is why was the ONLY lesson people seem to have learned from this is "a bil jee doesn't always work"?  What about the fact that the assailant pulled out of a chicken wing arm lock without and problem?  How about the fact that he easily passed the bouncers guard even though he didn't have any BJJ training?  Does that mean that the guard and the chicken wing lock are inneffective?  Or does it mean that no technique is 100%?

Regards,

John M. Drake


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## pinklady6000

Cthulhu said:


> Exactly my point, bscastro!  With that in mind, not only would I like to train the eye jab as a quick, flicking, disorienting attack, but also train the ability to follow up and capitalize on that moment effectively.
> 
> Cthulhu


follow up with a striaght blast is good.


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