# Black belt testing



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

I know all schools have different requirements, but I was just wondering what some of yours were for your test or what you may have your students do?


----------



## miguksaram (May 28, 2009)

Our tests consists of the following:

All techniques from white - black belt (kicking, punching, blocking, stances)
All kata (Taikioko 1-3, Tai-ichi gedon, Wansu, Gyakusei, Anaku, Empi-sho, Neifuchin, Basai-dai, Seionchin, Sanchin, Danaho, Tai-ichi neko)
Bunkai for all kata
15 Ippon
10 Taezus
8 Circular self defense
10 Advance self defense
6 locks
10 escapse
Defense against knife
Defense against stick
Freeform self defese
Freeform escapes/locks
Basic arnis strikes and blocks
Kobudo - Tsuisho (bo form), Shichi no konsho (bo form), Bosho (bo form) Nunchackusho (Nunchaku form), Sai theory, kama theory, bo theory, nunchaku theory, tonfa theory...We must apply theory to our empty hand forms
Mental information - 8 faces of shorei, power theory, ways to recognize the shorei system, symbolism of school patch, history of our system, lineage...there is more but you get the picture.
Walking the line - In a nutshell all the black belts line up in a single file line facing you.  The first person attacks and you defend as you push through them...keep in mind once you defend against them they go to the back of the line.  This continues until you back the line up to a certain point or they stop the drill.
Written paper on a topic martial art related
Finally, if you have a black belt in another system you must be prepared to execute any or all forms from that system.

I think that covers it.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

thats an interesting BB test, very comprehensive


----------



## miguksaram (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> thats an interesting BB test, very comprehensive


 Thank you.  Sensei Sharkey holds a BB test once a year and all his black belts fly in or drive in or walk in to be there.  Last year there were no canidates, this year there are 4 adult black belt canidates, one of them being me (may God have mercy on my soul...or at least bring my death quick...which ever is more convenient for him. ha.ha.ha).  During the next 3 months I will be cramming my TKD forms and TSD forms bagain into my memory.  The test will lasts from 4-6 hours depending on the amount of people taking it.  

This year he is doing one thing new and that is allowing Jr. BB canidates (4 of them) to test along side the adults.  Pretty much they will have the same test minus a couple of forms and the locks.  So it should be interesting.


----------



## Jphtkd (May 28, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I know all schools have different requirements, but I was just wondering what some of yours were for your test or what you may have your students do?




PM me your email address and I will send you our application packet. It outlines the requirements of the test and what the students have to do before the day of testing (i.e. Community service, class attendance) and the written exam.


----------



## miguksaram (May 28, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> PM me your email address and I will send you our application packet. It outlines the requirements of the test and what the students have to do before the day of testing (i.e. Community service, class attendance) and the written exam.


 
Hey no fair...you have to share with the rest of the class.


----------



## dancingalone (May 28, 2009)

Assuming you're not just interested in TKD... My tests tend to be all day affairs.  There are resting breaks after every two hour intervals.  I've taken 3 students so far to black belt and I'm very proud of all of them.  Two of them failed the first time.
======================================

Demonstrate all basic stances and stance shifts
Demonstrate all hand strikes and kicks in random combinations
Demonstrate breaking power with hands (minimum 3 boards), kicks (minimum 3 boards) and in combination (minimum 4 boards in less than 5 seconds with at least 3 techniques)

Sanchin testing:
sanchin performed 10 times in a row (usually takes 45 min to an hour) with INTENSE shime testing 

kata:
 gekkisai dai ichi
gekkisai dai ni
saifa
gekiha
seiunchin
shisochin
sanseiru 

optional kata (any two from this list):
pinan yondan
pinan godan
naihanchi shodan
passai
shorin-ryu seisan

formal bunkai sets (many TKD students won't be familiar with them, but they are essentially two man katas which teach the surface level applications to the solo kata; this is an example video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCj1_x77Ms">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCj1_x77Ms</a> :
kihon bunkai gekkisai dai ichi
kihon bunkai  gekkisai dai ni
kihon bunkai  saifa
kihon bunkai  gekiha
kihon bunkai  seiunchin
kihon bunkai  shisochin
kihon bunkai  sanseiru 

meditation & breath control:
demonstrate proper breathing during the test and during a formal observation period

impromtu bunkai demonstration:
at least two from each of the following kata
sanchin
gekkisai dai ichi or dai ni
saifa
seiunchin
shisochin
sanseiru

aiki/jujutsu/judo techniques done from both sides in response to straight or round blow:
ikkyo
nikyo
sankyo
yonkyo
kotegaeshi
shihonage
iriminage
kaitenage
o goshi
o guruma
osoto gari
osoto guruma
tomoe nage
deashi harai
ippon seionage

self-defense (using movements from kata):
wrist grab
cross wrist grab
lapel grab
front choke
rear choke
bear hug
rear bear hug
prone position with someone on top
knife attacks (4)
club attacks (4)
chain attack

kobudo:
kihon-kata-no-bo
kihon-kata-no-bo
tokomine-no-kun (sho)
                    kumi bo nidan 
bo/bo kumite #1 
                    kihon-kata-no-tonfa
tokomine-no-kun (dai)
bo/bo kumite #2
bamahiga-no-tonfa (sho)
                    bo/tonfa kumite #1

jiyu kumite:
3 rounds of 1 vs. 1 
2 rounds of 2 vs. 1
1 round of 3 vs. 1
1 round vs. any brown belt or dan holder present who wishes to test the candidate (funny how all the brown belts are DYING to give their friend a few licks)
1 round vs. me (by now the black belt candidate should be very tired; I will be testing primarily for spirit, endurance, and courage at this point)


----------



## Jphtkd (May 28, 2009)

It is 6 pages in microsoft word and I am too lazy to type it all out lol. Basically the test starts at 9am with a 1 mile run for kids, 2 miles for adults using the Army physical fitness standard for time limits. The students then have one hour to report to the dojang. We do not allow any spectators for black belt testing, including parents. From there, they do a two page written test, turn in their Essay and other required paper work (i.e. community service documentation, Kukkiwon application, and signed activity sheet for the month prior to the test), then the physical exam begins. 

All candidates are required to do 50 continuous Jumping jacks, push-ups, and V-ups after warming up with basic techniques. Each student is then required to demonstrate all lower ranking forms (Taegeuk 1-8), while answering questions about each form and required knowledge for that belt level. They then demonstrate 5 One-steps of their own creation, 10 ho sin sool attacks from different partners, then put on gear for sparring. 

Sparring matches consist of one and a half minute rounds, they have to spar every other black belt in the dojang at least one round, even children vs. adults. Candidates for 2nd Dan/poom or above also have to spar several rounds with multiple opponents. 

Once sparring is completed,they get a short rest period before breaking begins. Depending on what dan/poom they are testing for, they have to do between 2-6 board breaks using kicking techniques, and one or more brick breaks with hand techniques. The number of bricks is determined by what dan/poom they are testing for. Their test results come in the mail within a week or so, and if they pass they get invitations to the graduation ceremony, which is mostly for the parents and family members.


----------



## Stac3y (May 28, 2009)

<edit: d'oh! I study American Karate, not TKD, so you may not be interested>

I haven't taken our black belt test, or attended one, so I'm sure I'm leaving a lot out, but here goes:

6 minutes of jump rope
6 minutes of shadow boxing (free form or specified combos, per testers)
50 situps
50 pushups

Paperwork (done beforehand, turned in as preparation)
Written test
3 outside school reports
3 outside tournament reports
Brown Belt diary

10 curriculum kata (H forms 1-4, To San, Heian 4, Hwa Rang, Tekkie 1, Chung Mu, and Bassai Dai)

1 original specialty (weapon or musical) kata

1 original empty hand kata

All techniques, white through black
All self-defense sequences, white through black (there are 54 of these)
Self-defense (free form) against 10 attacks (3 different defenses for each)
All technique combinations (I think there are about 30)

3 hours (yes, that's right, _hours_) of light to moderate contact sparring with no breaks (not in rounds); fresh opponents rotated in frequently. No stopping for points, either. I've mentioned this before, and had people say it's impossible, but it's obviously not, since I know a few dozen black belts who did it. And yes, it's brutal.

Various surprises; some sections repeated, depending on whether the testers are happy with the way they looked the first time.

The whole test lasts anywhere from 8 to 15 hours, depending on whether anything is repeated. 

I'm sure I've left some things out. Hmph.

BTW, our brown belt tests contain all of this stuff except the 3 hours of sparring and the 10 attacks for free form self-defense. We take brown belt tests every 3 months starting with the first one (testing from purple to 3rd degree brown) whether we are taking a stripe off or not--participation is required. There are some combos added in at the 3nd brown level and some more at the 3rd brown level; the original empty hand kata is first tested at the 2nd degree brown test and the original specialty kata at the 1st degree brown test. My 3rd degree test also included fingertip pushups (not graded on this, though; good thing, since I have arthritic knuckles and could not really do them) and an exercise where you and a partner hook kick each other in the head. I will test for my 2nd degree on June 12th, so I'm practicing like a maniac. Brown belt tests last 3+ hours.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

no spectators?

let us know how your lawsuit goes when you get sued.


----------



## miguksaram (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> no spectators?
> 
> let us know how your lawsuit goes when you get sued.


Actually we don't allow spectators at our test either.  Sensei has done that since he first ran his school back in the early 70's.


----------



## Jphtkd (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> no spectators?
> 
> let us know how your lawsuit goes when you get sued.



For what? I have been doing it that way for the last 12 years, never had a problem with it. Do you get to sit with your child while they are at school, or take their SAT exam?


----------



## mango.man (May 28, 2009)

Our first school did not allow spectators for the morning portion of the BB tests.  Afternoon was open though to everyone.  Testing was 6AM - 6PM, or later if needed.


----------



## dancingalone (May 28, 2009)

I'm always happy for spectators to come watch our black belt exams, as rare as they are.  It's a happy occasion for the candidate and their families.  After all, they spend hours upon hours training away from their loved ones; they should be allowed to display to their families and friends just exactly what they've been studying and why the sacrifices made were worthwhile.  And having spectators is just another way to rachet up the tension for the candidates.

Why wouldn't you want people to watch the test?


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> no spectators?
> 
> let us know how your lawsuit goes when you get sued.


 

What do you mean?


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

Not just interest in TKD... I really like everything I read so far... I don't under stand some of the vocabulary but still I get the jist of it. Really thanks.


----------



## Jphtkd (May 28, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I'm always happy for spectators to come watch our black belt exams, as rare as they are.  It's a happy occasion for the candidate and their families.  After all, they spend hours upon hours training away from their loved ones; they should be allowed to display to their families and friends just exactly what they've been studying and why the sacrifices made were worthwhile.  And having spectators is just another way to rachet up the tension for the candidates.
> 
> Why wouldn't you want people to watch the test?



We hold a ceremony after the test when we award the belts and certificates. That is for the family members to see, then the student receives the cheering and accolades that come with passing the test. 

Part of testing for black belt in my philosophy is being able to stand there in front of a panel of judges on your own merit, and maintain the clarity of thought and composure to perform. Please don't infer anything from this, but our test is truly that. My goal is to push them to their physical and mental limit, so that the test becomes a process of self discovery.

I would hope at some point during, or after the test, they feel like they truly earned it. Their attitude and self-perception should become that of a black belt. When I test them, I am not asking them to do anything they have not done hundreds of times with mom and dad watching during class time. When you change the circumstances, particularly when testing Jr. Black belts, it changes their perception of the test.

The ceremony following the test is designed for audience. If the student passes, we have a tea ceremony and award the belt and certificate. The black belt is tied on the first time by the instructor to represent humility, and they get to take pictures and video of the event. Following the ceremony, all the families go out to dinner to celebrate. All Black Belt students are required to participate in both events, even if they are not testing.


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> We hold a ceremony after the test when we award the belts and certificates. That is for the family members to see, then the student receives the cheering and accolades that come with passing the test.
> 
> Part of testing for black belt in my philosophy is being able to stand there in front of a panel of judges on your own merit, and maintain the clarity of thought and composure to perform. Please don't infer anything from this, but our test is truly that. My goal is to push them to their physical and mental limit, so that the test becomes a process of self discovery.
> 
> ...


 

I like all of this...
just a few questions: 
1.How do you keep the parents from complaining about not being able to see the test?
2. I like the part of having to wait to see if you pass, have you had problems with this also?
3. Do you get them a school dan at the ceremony and then the KKW when it comes in ?
4.If they fail how do you handle the retest?


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> What do you mean?



you DONT allow parent sto watch thier kids, and one gets hurt?

you might as well sign over your school to them.

thats in addition to the fact that it is stupid. I REFUSE to EVER be alone with a minor.


----------



## dancingalone (May 28, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> Part of testing for black belt in my philosophy is being able to stand there in front of a panel of judges on your own merit, and maintain the clarity of thought and composure to perform. Please don't infer anything from this, but our test is truly that. My goal is to push them to their physical and mental limit, so that the test becomes a process of self discovery.



That sounds great and is exactly what my belt test is designed to foster also.  Candidates in my test are fatigued both mentally and emotionally as it's a long ordeal with much knowledge and skill to demonstrate if one is to pass.  I also make sure they get the tar beaten out of them doing the test, as it's partially one of courage and perseverance.

Everyone in my school knows our tests aren't pleasant.  This is part of the our social compact in the dojo and there is no misunderstanding as it takes years to learn everything before one is eligible to test.  That said, I still welcome spectators as they too are made aware of what they will likely see during an 8 hour test.  I don't allow people to come and go during the exam, by the way.  It's a total lockdown until we finish one way or another.


----------



## dancingalone (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you DONT allow parent sto watch thier kids, and one gets hurt?
> 
> you might as well sign over your school to them.
> 
> thats in addition to the fact that it is stupid. I REFUSE to EVER be alone with a minor.



That's an extremely logical precaution to take.  I only have one minor student, a 16 year old boy, and yet I am constantly thinking about whether what I am teaching is suitable for him or not.  I don't believe I will take on another minor student, but that's really another thread.

With regard to testing, in Goju-ryu karate you remove your top (or down to a tshirt/tank for women) and are bare-chested during performance of Sanchin kata, so the teacher can confirm the correct muscle groups are tensioned or relaxed.  You just can't do this with children without their parents being present to avoid the appearance of impropriety.


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you DONT allow parent sto watch thier kids, and one gets hurt?
> 
> you might as well sign over your school to them.
> 
> thats in addition to the fact that it is stupid. I REFUSE to EVER be alone with a minor.


 
I understand, I'm the same way about being along with aminor.. But I was assuming that more then one person was testing.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

oh, ok, I wasnt gonna, but i cant NOT...

You do whatever works for you, BUT (be advised,t eh following is my opinion, and i am a jerk. if i offend, sorry)

If someone told me I had to do a two mile run to army standards for a 1st dan test? I would tell them exactly what part of my butt they can start kissing.

And push ups, sit ups, and other warm up exercises on a TEST?

waste of my time and thiers. If you claim it is to wear them out, so they have to test tired, thats semi-plausable, but still stupid. You will not be tired in all probability when you are attacked.

If its for them to 'demonstrate thier fitness" it is compeltely stupid.

if they are not in shape, dont let them test. If they are, you are just wasting time.

If you want to test thier gut, to see how bad they want it, make them spar more.

Running is for people that DONT know how to stand there and fight.


----------



## Jphtkd (May 28, 2009)

*1.How do you keep the parents from complaining about not being able to see the test?*

It is known well beforehand that they are not allowed to watch, and it is an accepted practice in the school. A few of the parents have commented on it but they all understand.
*
2. I like the part of having to wait to see if you pass, have you had problems with this also?*

I give them their dan testing packet when they graduate to 1st gup. From there it takes six months minimum to test for 1st Dan/Poom. I also discuss it with the int/adv level students on a regular basis. Every day they come to class I encourage them to train 100%, as today can be a step toward passing that test. I let them know well in advance what is expected of them. There are a lot of schools in the area that issue the "your check cleared" dan certificate, so most parents and students are appreciative of our process.

*3. Do you get them a school dan at the ceremony and then the KKW when it comes in ?*

They get a provisional dan certificate until their kukkiwon arrives.
*
4.If they fail how do you handle the retest?*

We hold dan testing once every six months. If they do not pass, they wait for the next one. The class requirements and the homework packet they receive greatly increased the pass rate of the test. Leading up to the testing, they are required a minimum number of classes per week, and daily home work requirements to be signed off by the parents (this helps mom and dad feel like part of the process as well).


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> oh, ok, I wasnt gonna, but i cant NOT...
> 
> You do whatever works for you, BUT (be advised,t eh following is my opinion, and i am a jerk. if i offend, sorry)
> 
> ...


 
What your problem!!
Very post I read from you is negitive!!! I wonder how you insire anyone with that attitude. Why can't you just understand that there are differences in everything in life, including the martial arts.. These people who post here come to have a exchange of idea's, not to beput down. 

How many children do you teach?
How is your retention?
Do your BB stay and if so how long?

Because withall the cramp in life... yours is not needed!


and lastly...IS THAT YOU ON YOU TUBE DOING THAT *** CRAZY CANE FORM! because if so.... you need acting lessons.


----------



## Jphtkd (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> oh, ok, I wasnt gonna, but i cant NOT...
> 
> You do whatever works for you, BUT (be advised,t eh following is my opinion, and i am a jerk. if i offend, sorry)
> 
> ...



I would probably feel the same way if I couldn't run a mile either.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> What your problem!!



a terminal case of honestly, and a large dose of "dont care what anyone else thinks" 



NPTKD said:


> Very post I read from you is negitive!!! I wonder how you insire anyone with that attitude.



I try to "insire" by teaching martial arts. Solid, No BS, self defense oriented martial arts. not running. And my students LIKE the fact that I call it like i see it.



NPTKD said:


> These people who post here come to have a exchange of idea's, not to beput down.



I am exchanging ideas. My idea is that running for a belt test is STUPID. Feel free to disagree.



NPTKD said:


> How many children do you teach?
> How is your retention?
> Do your BB stay and if so how long?



90% of my students right now children. Not that thats any of your business.

Because withall the cramp in life... yours is not needed!



NPTKD said:


> and lastly...IS THAT YOU ON YOU TUBE DOING THAT *** CRAZY CANE FORM! because if so.... you need acting lessons.



maybe so. But it wasnt an acting test.


Jphtkd,
you do whatever you think is right, i think it is stupid. But hey, I think the KKW thing is stupid too. I know many disagree, but i dont care. 25 years in, I have earned my opinions. But here is the thing, I dont care if you think what I do is stupid. Why do you care if i disagree with your program?

as for your little quip, I am pretty sure I can still run a mile. i WAS gonna say that you can come on down to my school and find out exactly what I can or cant do....but, better direction for the converrsation: WHY do you require a TWO mile run?


----------



## Jphtkd (May 28, 2009)

Go back up and read the posts again and maybe you will figure it out eventually.

Just to clarify, the age old "lets take it out to the mat mentality"... even if I beat it into you, you would not get it anyway. A waste of time for everyone involved. In my experience, the people who like to use that mentality hardly ever have the skills to back it up anyway. Yay for keyboard courage.


----------



## miguksaram (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> you DONT allow parent sto watch thier kids, and one gets hurt?
> 
> you might as well sign over your school to them.
> 
> thats in addition to the fact that it is stupid. I REFUSE to EVER be alone with a minor.


 
Now keep in mind that only our black belt testing does not allow spectators.  Regular belt testing is fine with spectators.  

This will be our 3rd jr. bb testing that Sensei has ever held.  Before that you were a jr. brown belt until you were old enough to go into the adult class and you started working towards your adult bb.  

We have never had anyone under the age of 14 be qualified for a  jr. bb and those kids have been with us for minimum 5 years so the parents are pretty secured that we would not intentionally harm their kids at a testing.  Secondly there is always more than just one instructor so you are never left alone with a minor.

This particular test coming up on the 15th will be the first one that we have both jr.and adult testing at the same time.


----------



## dortiz (May 28, 2009)

I like the test is more for the audience version that finishes with a pass. This means you have pre test in class and yes...get denied when you are not ready. For the younger folks its such a big build up and after half a day of performing its a sense of closure for everyone to know they passed.
No parents is just the scariest thing out there in todays world. Good luck as long as that lasts.
I will also have to half agree with TF on the running. I dont see it as part of a test. I am OK with it being a requirement. Ability to do X amount of push up and sit ups etc. But I would expect that to be a class room pre test item or on your own but be willing to demo. I would never take class or family test time up with running. A better endurance test is having them spar 5 rounds consecutive and every round placing a fresh Black belt in. You get the endurance and you get what you are testing for.

Dave O.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

Stacy,
other than the warm ups being part of the test, which you KNOW how I feel about, this test seems pretty much in line.

Seems like too much sparring, i mean, 3 HOURS? but thats ok. At least sparring is actually a part of martial arts.


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> a terminal case of honestly, and a large dose of "dont care what anyone else thinks"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Did you train for yourself today?


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Stacy,
> other than the warm ups being part of the test, which you KNOW how I feel about, this test seems pretty much in line.
> 
> Seems like too much sparring, i mean, 3 HOURS? but thats ok. At least sparring is actually a part of martial arts.


 
come on now... don't try to nice.. we know you!


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

nope, i re-read your posts, and a two mile run is never explained, so I still think it is stupid. Please tell me why it is a good idea.




oh, and BTW- YOU started it with your little "if i couldnt run a mile" snarky crap. So dont go crying when someone calls you on your crap. YOU challenged ME.

I agree, to an extent, that challenges are sort of silly, but when you throw a glove, dont act offended when someone throws one back.....




Jphtkd said:


> Go back up and read the posts again and maybe you will figure it out eventually.
> 
> Just to clarify, the age old "lets take it out to the mat mentality"... even if I beat it into you, you would not get it anyway. A waste of time for everyone involved. In my experience, the people who like to use that mentality hardly ever have the skills to back it up anyway. Yay for keyboard courage.


----------



## dancingalone (May 28, 2009)

I'm not a moderator, but can we cool it with the personal insults?  Thanks.


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

okay.. back on topic...

It sounds like most of you are testing and then having so kind of ceremony on a later date( which I like) are you doing this for your gups also?


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

see, i was brought up testing, and not finding out till later if you passed, for UNDERBELTS

for BB? we always found out THEN wether we passed or not.

I have changed that around to giving out underbelt results on the spot.


----------



## dancingalone (May 28, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> okay.. back on topic...
> 
> It sounds like most of you are testing and then having so kind of ceremony on a later date( which I like) are you doing this for your gups also?



Since failure is a very real possibility in my exams, kyu (gup) or otherwise, I announce the results right away along with feedback.  Sometimes the reaction is emotional, but I see no reason to wait.  In my school, it's very obvious whether you know and can perform the material or not.  I don't generally ask a student to test however, unless I think they are ready.  The students I fail generally fail because they gave up during the exam - not because their skills were poor.


----------



## miguksaram (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> oh, ok, I wasnt gonna, but i cant NOT...
> You do whatever works for you, BUT (be advised,t eh following is my opinion, and i am a jerk. if i offend, sorry)


 
Well if you were sorry if you offend you wouldn't say anything and I don't believe you will be winning any Miss Congeniality award anytime soon. ha.haha.



> If someone told me I had to do a two mile run to army standards for a 1st dan test? I would tell them exactly what part of my butt they can start kissing.


 
Would you?  You have said in the past that you do things as your instructor taught them to you.  Are you saying that if he told you that to get your 1st dan you needed to do a 2mile run as part of your test you would have told him to kiss off?  Why?  BTW...Army standard for the 2 mile is between 13:00 - 13:50 depending on your age group.  That is also at full credit on your fitness for combat training. Being you are a man of fighting ways I would think this would appeal to you.



> And push ups, sit ups, and other warm up exercises on a TEST?


 
What is wrong with having a standard warm up at a test?  We personally don't have a requirement.  You start with a standard 50-50-50 (Push-ups, sit ups, leg lifts) as well as 100 jumping jacks and some stretches.  Now thorugh out the test a wrong answer or bad technique will earn you 10 pushups, which by the time the test ends adds up only to be rewarded with a standard 500 push-ups at the end of the test.  



> waste of my time and thiers. If you claim it is to wear them out, so they have to test tired, thats semi-plausable, but still stupid. You will not be tired in all probability when you are attacked.


Neither will you be dressed in funny pajamas either...but you still test in a uniform.



> If its for them to 'demonstrate thier fitness" it is compeltely stupid.


Why?  If you are an instructor teaching kids how to be fit don't you feel you should be fit as well?



> If you want to test thier gut, to see how bad they want it, make them spar more.


 
What's the difference? Outside a more probable chance of injury when you are tired and fighting.  And please don't start with trying to link this to what would happen in a real fight, because you already said you most likely wouldn't be tired in a street fight.



> Running is for people that DONT know how to stand there and fight.


I know how to stand there and fight...I run.


----------



## dortiz (May 28, 2009)

My opinion comes from being the student, the instructor, the parent and the parent who brings the grand parents.

Ask around more. If it involves younger students, parents and any other family or friends they are just let down regardless of the end result when the event ends and they dont know if the student passed.

I guess if its a school test then so be it but if you want it to be a big event let it end in the celebration everyone wants to have. You can formaly announce the passing and still schedule a certificate/Belt ceremony. But this way the family goes to baskin Robins.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

if you are doing your job right, they wouldnt be testing if their skills were poor........

I am old school, the test is a formality, you have already BEEN tested in class. the other is almost a........honorary.....thing.

but with pressure. oh and fighting. Lots of fighting.


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

That is the way I also have tested.. Under my grandmaster. I'm am looking for ideas that will improve my BB tests. I do like the ceremony for BB tests. I also have alot of the same requirements that are listed, but I used to test students as they became ready ( time in rank..etc) But I am moving to making my BB test only twice per year. So the imput here is really a help. i like the physical test being closed to spectators, and the ceremony open.


----------



## dortiz (May 28, 2009)

Not to side track but I teach something very different "Running is for people that DONT know how to stand there and fight."

Running is for the smart ones. They never lose the fight.


----------



## miguksaram (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> see, i was brought up testing, and not finding out till later if you passed, for UNDERBELTS
> 
> for BB? we always found out THEN wether we passed or not.
> 
> I have changed that around to giving out underbelt results on the spot.


 
Sensei Sharkey and I were talking about this very subject the other day.  He told me for his people who tested for brown bele he would not say anything for a month.  What he found was that those who were strictly in it for the belt would quit showing up to class after a week or so when they didn't receive the belt right away.

For the lower ranks up to 5th kyu/gup he will let them know within a week.  For 4th kyu/gup - 1st kyu/gup he waits about 2 weeks.  For black belts they know that evening after the test.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Well if you were sorry if you offend you wouldn't say anything and I don't believe you will be winning any Miss Congeniality award anytime soon. ha.haha.



wouldnt want to, I think if someone is too popular, they arent telling the truth all the time.




miguksaram said:


> Would you?  You have said in the past that you do things as your instructor taught them to you.  Are you saying that if he told you that to get your 1st dan you needed to do a 2mile run as part of your test you would have told him to kiss off?



yep. I am there to learn MARTIAL ARTS, not running. If i wanted to do that I would go down to Bally's The fact i was in the military and HATE running doesnt help, but my big objection to it? The instructor should already KNOW if they are fit. If they are, you dont need them to show it. If they are not, you shouldnt let them test in the first place.



miguksaram said:


> What is wrong with having a standard warm up at a test?



nothing, but as a test requirement, demonstrating warm ups is pointless, see above. If they can, you dont need them to and if they cant, they have no business testing. And an instructor ought to KNOW that before hand.



miguksaram said:


> Why?  If you are an instructor teaching kids how to be fit don't you feel you should be fit as well?



actually, I have found that the average person isnt fit. And, here is the kicker, people see martial arts done by some lean guy, they think "well yeah, he's inperfect shape, i am not, so i cant do that stuff"

They see ME doing it, and I am not in the greatest shape, they believe that THEY can do it to.

Dont get me wrong, I wish i were in better shape, but I am not. I am 42, and I cant run anymore, and I live in texas. We put gravy on our SALADS down here,.......LOL



miguksaram said:


> What's the difference? Outside a more probable chance of injury when you are tired and fighting.  And please don't start with trying to link this to what would happen in a real fight, because you already said you most likely wouldn't be tired in a street fight.



the difference is, they are not there to learn running they are there to learn FIGHTING so FIGHTING makes more sense to have them do than running

or maybe I am just a simpleton.


----------



## just2kicku (May 28, 2009)

If I may, our BB test is usually about 4 hrs.
After running thru all the basics (punches, kicks, blocks, stances, etc) you then do whatever combos the instructor tells you to do. ie front ball kick into a roundhouse step down back knuckle reverse punch. He makes up th combos as he goes.

Then it's the forms, we have only 8 required for the test. (Although we learn more)

Then the panel will give you one or two pinians to go thru and break down the movements and techniques within them.

When it comes to the grab and punch counters, you're on your own. We learn them by the numbers but for BB, you are attacked with no forewarning of which hand they are gonna punch with or if it's a kick. You just defend yourself using the techniques. 

Pretty much the same for the club, knife and multiple attackers. The knife is real, I got cut. There is no set of defend against a stab or lunge. It's defend against a knife attack period.

Same with a club and two and three man attacks.

In the end when your bleeding, lumped up and sore, you get your belt and get down in a low horse so the other BB can come up one at a time and punch, kick, elbow or knee you in the stomach.

Good times, you feel like you earned it then.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

you only need palamas 1-8 for BB?

do you use 14?

KSDS we dont use 14, but for 1st, I have to learn 1-11


----------



## miguksaram (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> wouldnt want to, I think if someone is too popular, they arent telling the truth all the time.


I agree...perhaps it is just tact that you may be missing. :ultracool



> yep. I am there to learn MARTIAL ARTS, not running. If i wanted to do that I would go down to Bally's The fact i was in the military and HATE running doesnt help, but my big objection to it? The instructor should already KNOW if they are fit. If they are, you dont need them to show it. If they are not, you shouldnt let them test in the first place.


 
I understand what you are saying.  So let me ask you this, if running was part of the requirements leading up to black belt (meaning you have to be able to run .5 miles by blue belt, 1 mile by purpler belt...ect) would you still feel the same or is it the fact that the 2 mile run comes up just at black belt testing?




> nothing, but as a test requirement, demonstrating warm ups is pointless, see above. If they can, you dont need them to and if they cant, they have no business testing. And an instructor ought to KNOW that before hand.


 
Again, I understand what you are saying.  My same question from above would apply here as well.



> actually, I have found that the average person isnt fit. And, here is the kicker, people see martial arts done by some lean guy, they think "well yeah, he's inperfect shape, i am not, so i cant do that stuff"
> 
> They see ME doing it, and I am not in the greatest shape, they believe that THEY can do it to.


 
I totally agree with you on this.  The instructor does not have to be the ipidomy of excellent health nor do they need to be in Bruce Lee shape.  However, I feel they should be able to do everything that they are teaching (sans any physical disability which would prohibit them).



> Dont get me wrong, I wish i were in better shape, but I am not. I am 42, and I cant run anymore, and I live in texas. We put gravy on our SALADS down here,.......LOL


I'm blessed/cursed at 38 to be working with a bunch of younger instructors at the school who are in great shape.  So it motivates me to try and stay up with them to a point...it also kills me too. haha.




> or maybe I am just a simpleton.


Let's just move this to your Tear me a new one thread or whatever you call it. ha.ha.ha.

BTW...I do hope you don't think I'm attacking you personally.  I am just trying to get a better idea of where you are coming from is all.


----------



## just2kicku (May 28, 2009)

Just 1-8, 14 is the basics pinian. If you don't know that one, shouldn't be testing.

Almost forgot the funnest part of the test, fight the other BB's. No pads, mouth guard optional, gotta have a cup. 

Then the board breaking, 1 inch board from 3 inches away 2 boards if you doing a ball kick.

Then you get your belt and get smacked around haha


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

naw dude, your cool with me


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

Joe,
You guys do the "Blessing"?



just2kicku said:


> Just 1-8, 14 is the basics pinian. If you don't know that one, shouldn't be testing.
> 
> Almost forgot the funnest part of the test, fight the other BB's. No pads, mouth guard optional, gotta have a cup.
> 
> ...


----------



## just2kicku (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Joe,
> You guys do the "Blessing"?



You talking about the prayer, John? Then yes, well we used to, haven't done it in a while


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

no, the "blessing of the belt" after you get promoted to BB. where they slap the crap out of your arms and legs with the belt. 



just2kicku said:


> You talking about the prayer, John? Then yes, well we used to, haven't done it in a while


----------



## just2kicku (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> no, the "blessing of the belt" after you get promoted to BB. where they slap the crap out of your arms and legs with the belt.



3rd and above I believe they do that. For your 1st, you have to take it from one of the BB's, and they don't let go. You gotta prove you want and deserve it, it's never just handed to you, none of the belts are.


----------



## Stac3y (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Stacy,
> other than the warm ups being part of the test, which you KNOW how I feel about, this test seems pretty much in line.
> 
> Seems like too much sparring, i mean, 3 HOURS? but thats ok. At least sparring is actually a part of martial arts.


 
Well, honestly, I'm on the fence about the conditioning stuff myself. I mean, I can do it, and I WILL do it, because it's required; but it seems like the ability to perform and teach the material should be more important than proving you are "in shape." I know that part of the idea is to tire you out and make sure you REALLY know your stuff, even when you're a zombie; but there are lots of good MAists out there who can't do a decent pushup (much less 50 of them) and never have been able to, or whatever. 

On the other hand, I do the basic conditioning stuff every day, and I am convinced it's good for me. Really, I am....kinda....gawd, I hate pushups.


----------



## dortiz (May 28, 2009)

"good MAists out there who can't do a decent pushup (much less 50 of them) and never have been able to, or whatever. "

Hmmm. I am the first to not do a lot of this at test but at the same time I have to wonder how good a Martial Artist is if they cant do a push up. 

Dave O.


----------



## Lord-Humongous (May 28, 2009)

Dang, my school tests fitness with 5 sets of 50 push ups, 5 sets of 50 sit ups and 5x 1min skipping.  They run 3.2 kms with a certain time requirement.  Then the following week they do a written test, hand in an essay and then do the TaeKwon Do test.  I have no idea what else is involved, though I've been told it is quite rigorous and there is a rumour of a surprise attack at some point.

It's going to be astoundingly hard for me (I am a Blue Stripe and working toward this goal).  But in defence of the fitness debate here, I can't imagine working towards that fitness level for any other reason.  I am in good shape from my current training now but would only dare complete one set of 50 push ups or sit ups as part of a regular workout.  So what else would take me to the next level?  Also, I like the fact that the BB test is hard.  That way if I am successful, I will be very proud!

BTW there are no fat people above my level at my school.  There's good reason to push the fitness level alone!  Also, I'll add that the primary reason that I started MA training was to get in shape, not to kick *** though I am coming along pretty well I think.


----------



## Stac3y (May 28, 2009)

dortiz said:


> "good MAists out there who can't do a decent pushup (much less 50 of them) and never have been able to, or whatever. "
> 
> Hmmm. I am the first to not do a lot of this at test but at the same time I have to wonder how good a Martial Artist is if they cant do a push up.
> 
> Dave O.


 
There are good ones with arthritic hands, good ones with rotator cuff problems....need I continue?


----------



## dortiz (May 28, 2009)

Ok, on a case by case issue based on damage is one point. In a regular training scenario is another.
 I think its a load of crap for the Martal Artist that can walk through all of the forms but cant really hold a candle. I have seen plenty that would get beat up by a pair of 18 year old thugs.
I have a lot of damage...trust me. At the same time I promise you if a pair of kids try to rob me everyone I train with and know would be scared about getting me out of jail.
So I guess we go full circle on what black Belt test should accomplish. Maybe I dont want to watch my kid run or do 50 push ups but I also want to know that if a kid his age decides to go stupid that I am the one being called in to discuss the blows delivered. 
The average Black Belt should be conditioned as a fighter. Thats tough, strong ,aware and skilled. 
By the way my knees hurt to the point of tears. Customers tell me they will show themselves upstairs. But when we do double flying kicks on the bags I get one or two in before I am done. Ice for the night for sure but everyone knows I can walk the talk. 
I have a video called the TKD Masters and there is an original pioneer with one arm amputated. He is doing everything. 
I hope that should the need come unless its a short term healing issue the arthritis or whatever else can be fought through to do a push up or fight as needed. Otherwise maybe its time to retire.

Dave O.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

lord-humungous said:


> BTW there are no fat people above my level at my school.  There's good reason to push the fitness level alone!  Also, I'll add that the primary reason that I started MA training was to get in shape, not to kick *** though I am coming along pretty well I think.




yeah, because people with bad knees or weight problems dont deserve to learn how to defend themselves........


----------



## artFling (May 28, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> What your problem!!
> Very post I read from you is negitive!!! I wonder how you insire anyone with that attitude. Why can't you just understand that there are differences in everything in life, including the martial arts.. These people who post here come to have a exchange of idea's, not to beput down.
> 
> How many children do you teach?
> ...



_TF, you probably shouldn't read this.  No, really don't read it.

Like you're gonna listen._


I'm only gonna say thing because I see TF take a lot of (sometimes well deserved) heat on this board.  And he's my friend, plus I'm his student.

And here's the deal; he prob. would rather I stay out of it and maybe I should, but I'm not asking his permission.  This is the thing: TF is snarky.  And not only that he's very funny.  I laugh every time I'm with him.  And that makes the hard training easier to tolerate.  And he's opinionated.  Unlike most Texans, he'll actually tell you what he thinks.  And being a displaced Californian living in TX, I find that refreshing.  

But listen friend (NPTKD), and this is off topic, you have got to figure out how to not ever let somebody's opinion, given on an internet forum, bother you.  This is a mode of entertainment for many people.  Never assume that it's just straight information being given.  Never take it personal.  Always read it with your "filter" on.

TF knows and freely admits that he can be a jerk.  He said so at the beginning of this thread.  And so he certainly deserves some the the hailstones that come down on him in the form of flames on this board.  But what you get in return is this: his honest opinion.  He can't help it.  He's got to tell you what he thinks.  He's really no good at hiding it.

And here's the other thing.  He _teaches_ me.  And inspires me and my children.  (BTW, he doesn't insire me cause that would just be wrong).  The man knows his martial arts.  Sure he's rough around the edges, but having to deal with those edges never makes me lose anything.  I only ever feel like I come out being a better person for being around him.  And I'm not an easy guy to teach, being middle aged and arthritic.

One last thing, TF's tone in real life is much more tolerable.  In print it looks more harsh than he means it.  He's simply being brutally honest. When he talks, his vocal mannerisms take most of the mean out of it.  My family and I are often the butt of TF's jokes, but it's cool.  We always go home and share the latest thing he said about us with my wife and she laughs too.  Cause it's funny.  And to tell you the truth all us humans are worth laughing at and we gotta start at ourselves.   And after all the cramp, cra.., (somebody spell that word for me PLEASE), After all the "stuff" in life, I need that.  

But hey, it's no wonder the guy HAD to learn martial arts.  His mouth would have never let him survive this long if he had not.  In fact, I'm pretty sure he has a full set of teeth.  Surprising huh.

Now, I have no intention of defending him again.  Cause he really doesn't need it.  I just had to get that off my chest.  

_See, I told you not to read it.
_


----------



## just2kicku (May 28, 2009)

lord-humungous said:


> Dang, my school tests fitness with 5 sets of 50 push ups, 5 sets of 50 sit ups and 5x 1min skipping.  They run 3.2 kms with a certain time requirement.  Then the following week they do a written test, hand in an essay and then do the TaeKwon Do test.  I have no idea what else is involved, though I've been told it is quite rigorous and there is a rumour of a surprise attack at some point.
> 
> It's going to be astoundingly hard for me (I am a Blue Stripe and working toward this goal).  But in defence of the fitness debate here, I can't imagine working towards that fitness level for any other reason.  I am in good shape from my current training now but would only dare complete one set of 50 push ups or sit ups as part of a regular workout.  So what else would take me to the next level?  Also, I like the fact that the BB test is hard.  That way if I am successful, I will be very proud!
> 
> BTW there are no fat people above my level at my school.  There's good reason to push the fitness level alone!  Also, I'll add that the primary reason that I started MA training was to get in shape, not to kick *** though I am coming along pretty well I think.



I don't see the point in doing the runs and fitness test. I would think you could go to a gym and do that. 

If a person wants to do it on their own, that's a different story, but why do it for the test?

To me it's like stretching, don't come to class and expect to do a whole lot of stretching, we'll warm up, but stretching is done on your own at home.


----------



## Lord-Humongous (May 28, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, because people with bad knees or weight problems dont deserve to learn how to defend themselves........



I meant that people lose weight by working out.  After so many months you'll be lighter if you train hard.  I've lost 40 pounds in a little over a year and 90% of that has to do with my TKD training.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

whatever works for you


----------



## StuartA (May 28, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I know all schools have different requirements, but I was just wondering what some of yours were for your test or what you may have your students do?


 
Heres our test for 1st Dan:

*The physical components of a 1st kup to 1st degree exam breaks down like this:*

*Theory: *A 2-3 Hour written theory exam

*Patterns: *Saju Makgi, Saju Jirugi, Chon-Ji tul, Dan-Gun tul, Do-San tul, Won-Hyo tul, Yul-Gok tul, Joong-Gun tul, Toi-Gye tul, Hwa-Rang tul, Choong-Moo tul

*Sparring and Self Defence*: 3 Step Sparring, 2 Step Sparring, 1 Step Sparring (Traditional), 1 Step Sparring (Advanced), Relaxed 1 Step with knife (2 rounds), Hosinsul with frontal attacks (2 rounds), Hosinsul with rear attacks (2 rounds), Unpadded Free Sparring, Padded 'Competition Style' Free Sparring, Traditional Sparring** (2 rounds), Free Sparring with knife (2 rounds), Idale Matsogi (2 v 1 Sparring x 2 rounds), Choke Sparring.
_All sparring & hosinsul demonstrated over a minimum of 2 rounds each, against fellow gradees of 1st kup level and black belts _

*Destruction: *Twio Yop Cha Jirugi (2 boards/both legs), Fore Fist Punch (2 boards), Hand technique (weak side - 1 board)***, Non-measured break**** x 2, Technical Break Demonstration

*Notes: *_* chosen by examiners / ** meaning they can kick, strike, sweep, take down and throw / *** 2 boards is 1 black board and 1 cream board, whilst single board breaks are required through a black board / **** no measuring or distance taking, the student simply walks up to the holder and strikes, with a basic kicking technique chosen at random for each leg. 1 board for 1st kups, 2 boards for 1st dans.
_
*Note:*_ We dont allow spectators in either.. we use to but it caused problems. That said, we have a panel of 5 examiners + BB's so no adult would ever be alone with a minor.. not that we`ve had any youngsters grade to BB yet. Finally, all our gradings are video, so any questions could easily be verified one way or another y playing back the footage. Videos can be seen here: __http://www.youtube.com/stuarta_

Stuart


----------



## NPTKD (May 28, 2009)

off topic....but How do you like my new pic..... who's the man!


----------



## Twin Fist (May 28, 2009)

cool pic


----------



## ATC (May 29, 2009)

Do not want to type the 7 pages of things we do but here is the jist of it.

Week prior to physical test is a 50 question written test. Must past written test with 80% or you do not take the phyical test and must wait 6 months to test again.

2 BlackBelt Essays (One Thank you essay and one What has TKD done for you essay).

Day 1 = Techniques 6-8 hours
All Punches (Singles, Multiple, Combos, ect...)
All Forms in order then in random order as called out by the Master
Self creational form
Weapons form (Self creational)
20 one steps in order then in random order
10 self created one steps
2 SD when grabbed by the wrist
2 SD when grabbed by the collar
2 SD when grabbed by hair
2 SD when grabbed in bear hug
2 SD when in fore arm neck lock
2 SD when being choked from front
2 SD when grabbed by 2 people on each wrist
2 SD when grabbed by 2 people wrist and legs
2 SD when grabbed in bear hug and one other person running at you
3 SD from different knife attacks
2 SD with gun in face and from behind with gun
All kicking techniques x4
Line drill kicking x2
All jump kick x2
All running kicks x2
Basic combo kicks x2
5 kick Combo x2 (Instructor calls out combo once and you must remember the combo)
8 kick Combo x2 (Instructor calls out combo once and you must remember the combo)
End Day 1

Day 2 = Endurance 5 hours
Mile run - under 10 min all students (Under 8 for most and under 7 for some)
100 meter dash x3 (under 15 sec for most)

*30 Second drills (as many as you can in 30 seconds) 30 second rest between drills. Must make the minimum number but should do more. fail any drill and you have 2 attempts after all drills are done to attempt the failed drill again. If you fail on the given 2 attempts then you fail and wait 6 months to test again.*
Pushup - 30 min
Pushup then jump ups - 15 min
Situps - 30 min
Left side single leg knee highs - 60 min
Right side single leg knee highs - 60 min
Running knee highs - 120 min
Jumpping knee highs - 30 min
Froggie jumps minis - 50 min
Froggie (squat) jumps full - 25 min
Lunges - 25 min
Leg lifts - 35 min
Back Bridge pushups - 20 min
Back situps - 40 min
Left leg running kicks - 50 min
Right leg running kicks - 50 min
Left leg running kicks face high - 40 min
Right leg running kicks face high - 40 min
Running kicks both legs face high - 30 min
Back spinning hook kick right leg - 20 min
Back spinning hook kick left leg - 20 min
Back kick (right left alternating) - 20 min
Spinning turning roundhouse (right left alternating) - 20 min

Breaking (7 boards) 3 hand techniques 4 kicking techniques
Breaking (min 3 bricks) Instructor picks technique

Sparring (1 on 1) 2 2:00 rounds (fresh opponet each round)
Sparring (2 on 1) 2 2:00 rounds (fresh opponets each round)
Sparring (3 on 1) 2 2:00 rounds (rotaing opponets every 30 seconds)

Oral exam - 20-30 questions from instructor.
Read out loud your BlackBelt essays
End Day 2 (Hope you are still standing)

I think I got it all in without the 7 pages. There are a ton of kicks on day 1. I think day one is more enduance than day 2 but many fail on day 2 because they can not make the minimum number of some drills. Also on day 2 you are so sore that you can barley walk. Fun stuff. Some fail the Oral exam also.


----------



## goingd (May 29, 2009)

Demonstrate every poomse (kijo-il-bo, all Taegeuks, Palgue-yuk-jang). A whole lot of kicking. Seven three-step-sparring, 13 one-step-sparring. Four board breaks of my choice and knife hand brick break. Two rounds sparring against one opponent, two rounds sparring against two opponents. Answer a few basic questions.


----------



## tkd2009 (May 29, 2009)

On the discussion of BB testing, I have been invited to a BB testing event next week and I was just wondering what sorts of gifts (if any) are recommended?  

I have never been to anything like this before so I would like to know the customs and such.

Thanks for any input!


----------



## miguksaram (May 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, because people with bad knees or weight problems dont deserve to learn how to defend themselves........


Crap I'm out...I had two surgeries on my knees...and my heart...and a collapsed lung.  Tell me do you get demoted for each injury you have?..if so I believe I am back to white belt again....perhaps even no belt.:whip1:


----------



## Twin Fist (May 29, 2009)

some of these schools give me a serious chuckle


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 29, 2009)

My GM gives a very, very physical test.  He is very old school and wants you to show strong spirit through a very physical test.

Both my kendo and TKD tests were very sparring heavy and both included warmups, though no running.  The warmup is the same warmup that we do in class, so it is not so much a part of the test as it is him wanting to make sure that you are indeed warmed up.  I am in agreement with TF regarding running as part of a test; not that I think of it as stupid, but that I feel that running is not what we go to class to learn how to do.  If I was told that I had to do it to pass the test, yes, I would.

My taekwondo test had an essay requirement.  Only one page, but we had to read it aloud.  I also was required to know all of the Korean vocabulary associated with TKD.  

Then, it required performance of all eight Taegeuk poomsae, 100 each of front kicks, turning kicks, axe kicks, side kicks, hook kicks and back hook kicks, and punches.  Then combinations of kicks and punches.  I had to perform two breaks, picked at random by him.

After that, about forty minutes of straight sparring against various opponents.

All of my kendo dan testings were more intense than this, particularly my thrid dan.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist (May 29, 2009)

If i did 100 turning kicks, i am pretty sure I would barf from the dizzy's


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 29, 2009)

My kendo tests each required 400 haya suburi, with the last one requiring an additional amount for nito.  That was actually worse than the kicks.

The sparing in kendo was over an hour and the first forty minutes or so was all nito ryu.  

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist (May 29, 2009)

good luck getting someone to WATCH 16 hours of this to judge it.........sounds like boot camp,not a BB test.



ATC said:


> Do not want to type the 7 pages of things we do but here is the jist of it.
> 
> Week prior to physical test is a 50 question written test. Must past written test with 80% or you do not take the phyical test and must wait 6 months to test again.
> 
> ...


----------



## ATC (May 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> good luck getting someone to WATCH 16 hours of this to judge it.........sounds like boot camp,not a BB test.


Ha ha ha...Yeah I know. We tried it all in 1 day once and it started at 10:00am and lasted until 2:30 the next morning. We went back to 2 days. The only problem with 2 days is that you are so sore the 2nd day that you think twice about showing up the 2nd day. I had to take an ice bath the night before. Our Master is from Korea and says that it is all about mental toughness. Took 2 days off work just to recover.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 29, 2009)

ok, here we go again

you do whatever works for you.

for me? this sounds like excessive, needless sadism.

there isnt enough IN tae kwon do to require an 8 hour test, much less 16 hours. Most of that time is taken up with endless reps.


Here is my favorite part: Day 2, 6 HOURS of exercise, yet only 12 minutes of fighting total.

sorry, not for me.


----------



## dortiz (May 29, 2009)

Here again I insert the family issue. They cant handle 6-8 hours. 3-4 is about tops. 
Personally I think you should be able to run through these in that time:
Basic Movements
Kicking Techniques
All Required Forms
Sparring
Breaking
Selfe defense / 1/2/3 steps
Terminology, questions, paper etc.

You dont ahve to have anyone attend but if you want to make it an event consider that too.

Dave O.


----------



## just2kicku (May 29, 2009)

I see a lot doing techniques, which is fine, but shouldn't the actual techiniques and number systems be gone by then?

I think by the time you test for black, you should be able to react to being attacked whether left or right, punch or kick, and the techniques should just come.

Same with knife, club and multiple attackers. I don't need someone to tell me to do all my punch outs, then I know what's coming. I would think the real test would be doing them when you don't know what's coming.

For me, running and pushups and stretching for that matter should be done at home. I wanna see if you can fight and defend yourself.


----------



## ATC (May 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ok, here we go again
> 
> you do whatever works for you.
> 
> ...


Fighting is done all the time in the dojang. We fight every Friday for 1.5 hours. Also if you are on the fighting team you fight 3 times a week for hours on end. However you do not push you body and mind to the limit ever except during testing. The test is more of your show of will than anything else. Also it is show that you have the knowledge as well. It is not needed to do all of those drills but it does show you heart and will power. It is easy to quit but it takes a strong mind to push until the end. After it is all said and done you do feel a great sence of accomplisment and you feel good about yourself. You feel like you have earned something rather than something just given to you.

I have seen some of the weakest minded and bodied kids really excell after their BB test. Once you push to that extent any fight or match is a piece of cake and your confidence increases 2 fold.

There was one peron on here that states that there are no fat people in his BB classes. I cannot say the same but I can tell you that the over weight ones are well slimmed down by the time they reach BB. We have had a few 200+ pounds kids (close to 300) slim down to under 180 or even lighter by the time they reach BB. One of our 3rd Dan BB instructors started when he was 12. At 12 he was 6 feet and close to 300 pounds. He is now 22 and he is 6'5" but only 225 and solid. He goes in the the Marines this summer.

You must be in shape to win any fight. You also must have the stronger will to win all fights. You must test that will as well as your techniques.

Just my .02


----------



## terryl965 (May 29, 2009)

I guess heavey wieght people cannot and should not do TKD, well I am retiring because I am. That is all to all you must be slim to be effective.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 29, 2009)

ATC
if YOU like your program, then it is a good program for you

i will say it is not the average. and, IMO, it goes too far.

if you like it, more power to you.





ATC said:


> Fighting is done all the time in the dojang. We fight every Friday for 1.5 hours. Also if you are on the fighting team you fight 3 times a week for hours on end. However you do not push you body and mind to the limit ever except during testing. The test is more of your show of will than anything else. Also it is show that you have the knowledge as well. It is not needed to do all of those drills but it does show you heart and will power. It is easy to quit but it takes a strong mind to push until the end. After it is all said and done you do feel a great sence of accomplisment and you feel good about yourself. You feel like you have earned something rather than something just given to you.
> 
> I have seen some of the weakest minded and bodied kids really excell after their BB test. Once you push to that extent any fight or match is a piece of cake and your confidence increases 2 fold.
> 
> ...


----------



## igillman (May 29, 2009)

Imagine that you have worked towards your physics degree for the last 4 years. You have been to the classes, learned the formulae, understood the theory, put the theory into practical use, read the history and generally immersed yourself in the world of physics for the last 4 years.

Now comes time for the exam...
Instead of there being 10 really in depth questions about physics, its history and its practical applications you find the following...
1000 Questions on basic mathematics (very simple stuff).
500 Questions on harder stuff but nothing too complex.
5 short answer questions on physics.

Would you feel cheated? Would you feel like anybody who passed that exam really understood physics or could they just do basic mathematics quickly enough for the test?

Now look at some of the black belt tests that have been posted in this thread and others in the past. How many hours are devoted to real TKD techniques? The correct stances, the correct moves, the correct kicks compared to just running and jumping? What parts of the test are very strict? Must you do 100 situps or will 99 do? If you fail them for that one missing sit up but pass them even though their technique is not 100% perfect what are your priorities?

Let's put it this way. Would you rather learn from someone who can perform perfect (or as close to perfect as you can get) techniques or someone who can do 100 push ups in a minute?

Yes, you have to be fit to be an instructor, to a certain extent. There are people in their 70's who still teach martial arts. They can no longer do 100 pushups, run a mile in under 4 minutes and sprint 50 yards in 10 seconds. But they don't have to do that to understand the techniques and to teach them well.

I am not saying that we shouldn't have fitness tests as part of a black belt test, fitness is a part of the martial art, but sometimes we may have our priorities a little screwed up.


----------



## ATC (May 29, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ATC
> if YOU like your program, then it is a good program for you
> 
> i will say it is not the average. and, IMO, it goes too far.
> ...


No it is not average and it is not for everyone, and for some it may be too much. But that is not a bad thing.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 29, 2009)

I will not criticize anyone's test here.  Each is designed to prove the traits that are important to the instructor.  And of course, each instructor is different. 

I do feel that some of the seemingly excessive tests may be the result of a backlash against the pay to pass tests that are far too common.  In an age when everyone has a black belt, it no longer represents what it had, thus some schools ramp up their tests in order to show that the student is not just another product of martial daycare.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist (May 30, 2009)

that may very well be.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 30, 2009)

I have also noticed a lot of comments regarding overweight practitioners or practitioners who are not a picture of sports fitness.

Here are my unsolicited thoughts on that:

If you are promoting fitness in your literature, you had better look the part.  

If you are promoting civilian self defense, then it is less important.  As long as the person's weight or other issues do not prevent them from performing the techniques, then it really is not an issue.

Certainly, obesity can work against a practitioner in competition.  But in a real life SD scenario, so long as he or she can effectively execute the techniques, it is less of a factor. 

And for the record, I have known some very agile and even graceful overweight and downright obese people.  The stereotype of overweight people being clumsy and slow is not always correct, any more than the stereotype the underweight skinny person being a weakling with no stamina.

Figure out what type of school you are and what you are promoting and make sure that you as an instructor can represent that to the greatest degree possible.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist (May 30, 2009)

see, Daniel is pretty sharp.

I dont bill my school as a fitness center

i say i teach SELF DEFENSE, that will make you stronger, more flexible and better co-ordinated.

In fact, i tell people that martial arts isnt good for losing weight.

cus it isnt.


----------



## ATC (May 30, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> In fact, i tell people that martial arts isnt good for losing weight.
> 
> cus it isnt.


That is just a matter of opinion.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 30, 2009)

ok, you say so.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 31, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> In fact, i tell people that martial arts isnt good for losing weight.
> 
> cus it isnt.


Well, it probably is to the extent that it gets you up off of the sofa and moving around, and certainly, regular sparring will burn calories, but other than that, no.  

But a martial arts program designed to make students proficient in technique is not going to be the best solution for weight loss.  It is not designed for that.  

The big problem is that people substitute a karate class for what they *really* need: modifications in diet and an aerobics designed specifically for losing weight.  This is a problem because they are using the wrong tool for the job.  

Going to the dojo for fitness reasons alone is okay, I suppose, but the fitness is more of a byproduct than a goal in martial arts unless your school has specifically put fitness at the forefront, such as at ATC's school or an XMA school.  There are much less expensive and much more effective ways to lose weight than martial arts.  

There are people who are highly trained to help others lose weight.  MA instructors are not those people.

Daniel


----------



## midnight star (May 31, 2009)

Iv never lost weight due to tkd in the 7yrs iv been doing it......well...apart from the run up to my dan gradings but thats due to too mant toilet trips!! Lol


----------



## igillman (May 31, 2009)

I lost between 5 and 10 lbs when I did TKD. I agree that there are better weight loss programs out there but I wanted something to get me moving, lose a few pounds and be fun to do. TKD was great for that, I got moving, lost a few pounds and had fun, what more could I ask for?


----------



## StuartA (May 31, 2009)

Though in the main I agree with Daniel S.. we do around 45 mins to an hour of warm up/exercise at classes.. every class, so people do lose weight at our classes... though I dont use that as an advertisment for them really. However, all our adult classes are 2 hours long, so we have the scope for so much exercise, but its because I beleive in the "_fit to fight_" moto, as opposed to "_join us and lose weight_" type of thing!

Stuart


----------



## Twin Fist (May 31, 2009)

Stuart, it isnt the TKD trainign that makes them lose weight then, it is the nearly HOUR of exercise that does that.

right?


----------



## ATC (May 31, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ok, you say so.


I understand your point. Yes I can teach you a technique and that technique will not lose you weight by itself. And yes now you know a martial art technique. I now can teach you many of these techniques and thus now you know a bit of martial arts, but by knowing this you are not a martial artist. In order to be a martial artist you must be able to perform your techniques when needed. If you are out of shape and not fit you will not be able to perform any move you may know on anyone. In order to perform those moves you need to practice them. In order to be effective with any move you must be in shape. In order to win againt an opponet with any moves (most likely mutliple moves over time) you must be in better shape than your opponent.

You can not have martial arts without fitness. I know some pretty fit fat people. Just because you are so called overweight does not mean you are not fit. However if you start a martial art you will lose some weight just because each go hand in hand. The amount of fitness obtian is up to you as is the amount of weight you lose. The more you put in the more you gain and lose. You will gain fitness and lose weight. Put in little time and you gain little and lose little but you still gain and lose. The one thing I cannot understand is if you want to fight and fight well you must put in a lot of time. You can't win a fight if not in shape. I have seen countless so called Martial Artists get destroyed by fit street people just because they were not in the better shape.

Fitness and Martial Arts go hand in hand.


----------



## StuartA (May 31, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Stuart, it isnt the TKD trainign that makes them lose weight then, it is the nearly HOUR of exercise that does that.
> 
> right?


 
Fitness is part of TKD, as much as a kick is! The fact that many schools choose not to include it is down to them (though I think they are mad not to), but that doesnt change the fact that its part of TKD.

Besides, even without the fitness part, the rest of many of our classes would help do the same anyway... all our classes produce sweat.. and sweat is calorie losing is it not?

Stuart


----------



## ATC (May 31, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Stuart, it isnt the TKD trainign that makes them lose weight then, it is the nearly HOUR of exercise that does that.
> 
> right?


An hour of kicking and punching is exercise. Even if you just did forms for an hour you are getting one hell of a work out.

Martial Arts and fitness go hand in hand.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 31, 2009)

ATC said:


> You can not have martial arts without fitness. .



I disagree

the whole point was for WEAKER people to be able to protect themselves from stronger people by moving better and smarter


----------



## ATC (May 31, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I disagree
> 
> the whole point was for WEAKER people to be able to protect themselves from stronger people by moving better and smarter


Best propagand ever to get weaker people up doing something to make them stronger. You have to be conditioned, body, spirit, and mind. This is what MA developes, weather you believe it or not.


----------



## StuartA (May 31, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I disagree
> 
> the whole point was for WEAKER people to be able to protect themselves from stronger people by moving better and smarter


 
I dont. All things being equal... the fittest guy/gal will win! Every self defence expert in the world will tell you that fitness is an essential part of SD!

Stuart


----------



## Twin Fist (May 31, 2009)

StuartA said:


> I dont. All things being equal... the fittest guy/gal will win! Every self defence expert in the world will tell you that fitness is an essential part of SD!
> 
> Stuart




ah, but thats just it, we dont train for "all things being equal"

we dont train to fight other trained martial artists

we train to defend against street thugs.

now, everyone should be fit as they can be.

is it required for effective self defense?

nope

thats all I am saying.

and feel free to disagree.


----------



## StuartA (May 31, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ah, but thats just it, we dont train for "all things being equal"


Didnt say we did.. but IF.. then those that dont will lose!



> we dont train to fight other trained martial artists


We do... we train for defense against ANYONE.. that includes martial artists going the wrong way! And we dont train to lose!



> we train to defend against street thugs.


Those too.. I hope that street thuig hasnt hit the gym or done martial arts though!! :uhyeah:



> now, everyone should be fit as they can be.
> 
> is it required for effective self defense?
> 
> nope


Hmmmmmm.... yup! Not super fit... just fit enough! Much of the vids Ive seen on YouTube of so called martial artists doing their thing, wouldnt last 5 minutes outside their dojang.. they run through the moves, but would be gasping for breath in a real encounter. Sorry, but if you dont teach some element of fitness, then you cant be teaching MA correctly!




> and feel free to disagree.


I do... strongly!

Stuart


----------



## ATC (May 31, 2009)

StuartA said:


> Didnt say we did.. but IF.. then those that dont will lose!
> 
> 
> We do... we train for defense against ANYONE.. that includes martial artists going the wrong way! And we dont train to lose!
> ...


Very good point Sturart. We must train to handle the unknown. There are many street thugs that have MA backgrounds. We do not pick and choose who we defend againt. We must be ready for all situations. Fitness can not be ignored.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 31, 2009)

StuartA said:


> Though in the main I agree with Daniel S.. we do around 45 mins to an hour of warm up/exercise at classes.. every class, so people do lose weight at our classes... though I dont use that as an advertisment for them really. However, all our adult classes are 2 hours long, so we have the scope for so much exercise, but its because I beleive in the "_fit to fight_" moto, as opposed to "_join us and lose weight_" type of thing!
> 
> Stuart


Fit to fight I completely agree with, though I suppose that there are as many different definitions to that as there are styles of martial arts.  But fit to fight does not always equal weight loss.  I have gained about fifteen pounds since I got back into taekwondo three years ago due to muscle building.  Our classes are pretty intense on the warmups and I make sure to eat very well to take maximum benefit.  

So I have gained weight and am more fit than I was before I started.  Even people who lose fat, if they gain muscle may not actually lose weight, as muscle is heavier than fat.  Thus I would likely not advertise weight loss.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965 (May 31, 2009)

Each there own, being in shape and being fit is two totally different things here. I can be one without the other.


----------



## Twin Fist (May 31, 2009)

Qft



terryl965 said:


> each there own, being in shape and being fit is two totally different things here. I can be one without the other.


----------



## StuartA (Jun 1, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Fit to fight I completely agree with, though I suppose that there are as many different definitions to that as there are styles of martial arts. But fit to fight does not always equal weight loss. I have gained about fifteen pounds since I got back into taekwondo three years ago due to muscle building.


I guess so, but the way i see it, is that SD/Patterns/whatever are our first line of defence (well second actually but Im ignoring enviromental awareness for the physical elements), now, as we are only human, there is a good chance that an altercation will go beyond that aka a fight, and the way i see it, though a fight should be over pretty quickly (with good training) one needs to be able to go, and keep going, at maximum for at least 5 minutes.. that requires fitness.. in turn, that requires hard work, which in turn makes you sweat, which in turn loses weight. Granted, not for everyone (eg. like you, theres a guy in my school who does weight training as well, so is building weight), but in general, with a reasonable diet, weight is lost IMO.

However, all that being said, some people lose weight more readily than others, myself for example, has stayed the same weight roughly since I started, because I have a fast matablism anyway and TBH, hardly any fat to lose.

Like I said, even though i think many would lose weight at my classes, I wouldnt use that as an advert, not cos its untrue, but simply because I'm not teaching weightloss and see it as a by-product of martial arts training - which is what I do teach.

Stuart


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 1, 2009)

StuartA said:


> Like I said, even though i think many would lose weight at my classes, I wouldnt use that as an advert, not cos its untrue, but simply because I'm not teaching weightloss and see it as a by-product of martial arts training - which is what I do teach.


100% spot on.  

Daniel


----------



## dortiz (Jun 1, 2009)

I would say for those that are questioning this that some sparring time will tell. Why bother arguing the point. If you can spar 5 rounds thats about what you need for any fight.
I am not thin but not fat either. I would love to drop about 10 or 15 but it keeps coming back. At the same time the odd thing is I fight better with a bit more meat on me. I take the shots better and plow through my opponents. 
I am very comfortable with the balance of my skills and body because I prove it to myself at least twice a month.
As long as you are not that teacher that wakes up one day and is large and has not tossed around in 5 years but like the high school athlete thinks you still got it you are fine. I have a friend who is a big guy but wow he does not run out of gas. Add that to some nice technique and powerfull shots and there is no discussion needed.

Dave O.


----------



## Stac3y (Jun 1, 2009)

I haven't lost weight directly as a result of MA, but it serves as an incentive. If I get too heavy my knees and feet hurt and I can't jump. I want to be good at karate, not just barely competent, so I watch my diet and try to get enough cardio. I've upped the fitness portion of my workouts lately, and have gained some weight as a result of muscle gain.

I have also noticed that if I lose too much weight, it's harder to stay on my feet when sparring. I fight some BIG women, and some of them have very loose definitions of "light to moderate contact". So I try to maintain a happy medium.


----------



## TaekwondoForLife (Jun 1, 2009)

Our 1st-3rd Dan black belt tests:

Perform Palgue Chil and Pal, or Koryo-Kumgang-Taebaek no count. We don't need to see every form you ever did.

Free fight three separate opponents wearing headgear. You are expected to demonstrate moderate contact with control. If you fight black belts, you must be able to contact them.

At least one breaking technique that showcases your best technique and is appropriate for your level. If you are testing for 1st Dan, don't show me some advanced jumping kick unless you are very good, save those for 2nd or 3rd Dan. Show me good basic breaks.

First Dan testers must also submit a three page essay on their thoughts about Taekwondo and why they practice.


----------

