# Dancing or fighting?



## Ram (Aug 6, 2006)

After looking at various martial arts schools around the area I decided to try out an Aikido school near by. Akidio seems to instill patience and good reflexes in its students from what I have seen on T.V. and on-line. 
  Now only one thing concerns me about my new endevor, a lot of what I have seen has seemed like dancing. 
   Now I am no novice to martial arts. I got a black belt in Villari's Shaolin Kempo Karate(I know Villari's schools are not that great but it was a start) I also have trained in Greco-Roman Wrestling and a Muay Thai/Ju jitsu mix. Now I love what I watch in the older black and white Aikido videos a martial artist with speed and grace throwing guys around who are comming full force at him. The attackers in these videos do not look like they are trying to flip with the opponent(even though you would probably have to at some point to avoid injury)but are offering resistance and will attack with hard resistance even two at a time. Now what I have seen in most newer Aikido videos I have came across are two people barley working, one fliping gracefuly while the other throws him(pretty much without even touching him) no one is even breaking a sweat. 
   I am sure this has come up before but I guess I am nervous that after I finally get to a point with the techniques where i am capeable of practicing with resistance and force applied on me everyone will want to danceartyon: ?


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## Jenna (Aug 6, 2006)

Ram said:
			
		

> After looking at various martial arts schools around the area I decided to try out an Aikido school near by. Akidio seems to instill patience and good reflexes in its students from what I have seen on T.V. and on-line.
> Now only one thing concerns me about my new endevor, a lot of what I have seen has seemed like dancing.
> Now I am no novice to martial arts. I got a black belt in Villari's Shaolin Kempo Karate(I know Villari's schools are not that great but it was a start) I also have trained in Greco-Roman Wrestling and a Muay Thai/Ju jitsu mix. Now I love what I watch in the older black and white Aikido videos a martial artist with speed and grace throwing guys around who are comming full force at him. The attackers in these videos do not look like they are trying to flip with the opponent(even though you would probably have to at some point to avoid injury)but are offering resistance and will attack with hard resistance even two at a time. Now what I have seen in most newer Aikido videos I have came across are two people barley working, one fliping gracefuly while the other throws him(pretty much without even touching him) no one is even breaking a sweat.
> I am sure this has come up before but I guess I am nervous that after I finally get to a point with the techniques where i am capeable of practicing with resistance and force applied on me everyone will want to danceartyon: ?


Hey Ram  welcome to MT.. and do not worry that this is a right ol chestnut.. I can never be a$$ed looking up old posts either but there is plenty of stuff posted maybe search compliant uke or somesuch terms.. and yeah you may well find that if you are new to Aikido that your partner (whether uke or nage) will go with your movement to give you some ideas of where you are breaking their balance or to let you roll or do your ukemi comfortably for example.. however shop around.. it you are at a club or school where no one offers any one any resistance then my friend these folk are just playing at Aikido.. and make no mistake there are many such.. 

Yeah but do bear in mind that a good instructor will offer you sufficient resistance that you will KNOW when you are doing the tech correctly and not using force to complete it.. personally I am quite the opposite and when I used to teach I would not have moved one bit unless the technique compelled me to do so.. 

anyways.. just maybe a couple of things to keep your eyes open to! good luck on your Aikido career!

oh make certain you did not actually wander into Miss Pollys Rhumba studio, LOL 

Uke please!

Yr most obdt hmble xsrvt,
Jenna


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## Yari (Aug 7, 2006)

You'll find Aikido styles covering both area's: Dancing and fighting. It really depends on what the instructor emphesizes.

I understand that people can think that Aikido can look and feel like dancing, but keep focused and you'll see through that.

/Yari


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 7, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Yeah but do bear in mind that a good instructor will offer you sufficient resistance that you will KNOW when you are doing the tech correctly and not using force to complete it.. personally I am quite the opposite and when I used to teach I would not have moved one bit unless the technique compelled me to do so..


 
That is very good advice.

I am not an aikido person, but I use to spare a few and you can tell the difference between those that trained like Jenna has said and those that train like you mentioned.

I will say I have been slammed to the ground pretty hard by a few of those Aikido dancers and believe me I gave them no help. 

But you can find similar problems in many Martial Arts today.


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## Ram (Aug 7, 2006)

One of the Aikido places near me is the http://www.chendokanaikido.com/ style of Aikido. The only thing is that later this year I am going to Korea and am wondering if you can carry over techniques from one style of Aikido to another?


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## Ram (Aug 7, 2006)

> oh make certain you did not actually wander into Miss Pollys Rhumba studio, LOL


 
 Thanks for the advice LoL


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2006)

Ram said:
			
		

> One of the Aikido places near me is the http://www.chendokanaikido.com/ style of Aikido. The only thing is that later this year I am going to Korea and am wondering if you can carry over techniques from one style of Aikido to another?


Hey there  yes absolutely there is crossover between styles of Aikido though obviously many have their own deviations to standard techs or ukemi for example and but generally it is not an impossible task to find the similarities.. in fact you would find those similarities between your Aikido and many aiki-JJ styles also the roots being common.. thing I found most difficult to translate was in the various kata (I do not practice them in my own style) and when visiting dojos from other styles I most definitely felt the fish out of water .. but technique wise you should not have too great a problem translating from one style to the other.. Good luck 

and yes.. watch out for Miss Polly and her Rhumba Aikido, LOL 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Aikironin (Sep 3, 2006)

Well from doing some research on chendokan Aikido, their lineage is more of a Tomiki (shodokan ryu) style of Aikido.  Not to be confused with mainline Aikikai aikido.  Tomiki was one of Osensei's students, who post WWII formed his own competitive style of Aikido with Osensei's blessing. Some crossover between the two (tomiki vs. Aikikai) but not as much as say, USAF vs. ASU or Iwama compared to Aikikai.  Basically what it boils down to is how does it fit and feel to you and your life?  And that should be your ultimate guide, not what others say, but how it improves your life.


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## Hand Sword (Sep 4, 2006)

HMMM. Tough choice. But, If I have to choose.....I'll go with fighting. I couldn't dance to save my life. At least fighting, I'd have a chance.


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## amir (Sep 7, 2006)

The ideal in Aikido is to become so good a fight with you would look like a dance. One would not see a clash of forces as you will harmonize with any force of your attacker and utilize it to further your maneuvering and techniques.


From an instructors point of view, or even a veteran student who is aware of his training process. This ideal raises very difficult problems, one of which the conflict of softness or technique effectiveness:
* The ideal requires you to be very soft. Soft as in attentive and responsive to every minor move in an harmonious manner and not as in weak. This softness is essential of becoming a better fighter. To learn such softness, one should be accustomed to reacting to any minor force, and learn to sense the intentions of the anyone activating force on you. Thus, to learn softness, the best way is to practice in a cooperative and compliant way when one is Uke (the technique receiver).
* If you wish to create an effective technique, you should practice it against some resistance. The technique should succeed unless it is applied correctly.

This is the dilemma. A good teacher is aware of it and looks at ways of solving it, such as changing the approach over long training durations (several months are practiced in a very compliant and soft approach, and then several other months are practiced with resisting Uke and vice-versa) or changing the approach depending on the student advancement (here some would start with learning to be soft, and others with learning correct technique).


Some Aikido teachers seem to forget or discount the necessity of a good solid technique, and concentrate only on the softness side. In my opinion, they exchanging goal with tool and missing the essence, but, each and his own way. 

If you have good and solid techniques, focusing the learning on flow and harmony should actually be better for you.






Ram said:


> One of the Aikido places near me is the http://www.chendokanaikido.com/ style of Aikido. The only thing is that later this year I am going to Korea and am wondering if you can carry over techniques from one style of Aikido to another?


 


I always believe anything you learn can only be to your benefit. So you may find another style and be taught to act in a different manner, and learn other variations for the same techniques. Sounds only beneficial to me.


Amir


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## howard (Sep 9, 2006)

Ram said:


> The only thing is that later this year I am going to Korea and am wondering if you can carry over techniques from one style of Aikido to another?


If you're going to be in Korea, you're far more likely to find Hapkido schools than Aikido schools.

Pardon me if I'm telling you something you already know, but Hapkido may come from the same source as Aikido.  However, it is typically a more "aggressive" art than Aikido.

If you want to see an interesting contrast with Aikido, you might try to find a legitimate Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu school.  We know for a fact that Daito-ryu is the source of Aikido, as Ueshiba was a licensed instructor of Daito-ryu under Sokaku Takeda.  Daito-ryu's techniques begin with the use of aiki, but they have retained the nasty finishes that seem to have been removed or altered in some styles of Aikido.

Where will you be in Korea?  If you'll be anywhere near Daegu, I can recommend an outstanding Hapkido dojang to you.


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## Aikironin (Sep 11, 2006)

Well without getting to much off topice, the hapkido/daito ryu connection has been hotly contested by many people over the years.  The japanese predominately downplay Choi's involvment with Takeda, while the Korean's uplay it.  No surprises there.  Also Kanji wise a Korean would read the characters for Ai-ki-do as hap-ki-do.  So be forewarned if you see a sign for Aikido on the street.  Secondly Ueshiba did a bit more than omit the "nasty finishes" that DTR has.  Changed the arts fundamentally,  this has been my criticism with many an aikidoka.  They feel if they add in atemi, and go quicker with less emphasis on circles, they are more "jutsu" and less "do".


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