# where is everybody?



## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 29, 2015)

so yeah I'm taking Taekwondo and was excited to find a forum about it. I posted four posts and got one reply. Then I started looking at the dates last posted and in most of the threads no one has posted for several months. Is this an abandoned website? I saw tons of discussions did it just stop at some point? Kinda bums me out cause I love talking about martial arts but when I talk to friends on Facebook and stuff like that people who don't share my passion for martial arts it isn't the same.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 29, 2015)

Hi welcome to MartialTalk.  We have a number of Tae Kwon Do practitioners and instructors here.  I am sure that you will find some very good discussions.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 29, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hi welcome to MartialTalk.  We have a number of Tae Kwon Do practitioners and instructors here.  I am sure that you will find some very good discussions.


I hope so! thanks!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 29, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I'm taking Taekwondo ...



If you talk about MA in general, people from all styles will participate. If you just talk about any particular style, only people in that particular style will participate.

For example, instead of talking about TKD kick, why not talk about kick in general? Not only you will get more people to participate your discussion, you will also get people's opinion about kick from different angles and not just kick from the TKD point of view.


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## Steve (Jun 29, 2015)

Try posting about Olympic tkd being bad for self defense.  Or kiddie black belts.   You'll get lots of posts.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 29, 2015)

Or try to post

- TKD "anti-grappling" strategy.
- My TKD is "pure" and your TKD is not.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you talk about MA in general, people from all styles will participate. If you just talk about any particular style, only people in that particular style will participate.
> 
> For example, instead of talking about TKD kick, why not talk about kick in general? Not only you will get more people to participate your discussion, you will also get people's opinion about kick from different angles and not just kick from the TKD point of view.


thanks for the input, so you think I should post in the general martial arts talk forum instead of Taekwondo? I took Shaolin Kung Fu a long time ago and didn't like it much. I took Krav Maga and liked it but didn't stick with it. Taekwondo is def my martial art of choice but yeah I'll try and be more open to different styles. thanks!


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 29, 2015)

Steve said:


> Try posting about Olympic tkd being bad for self defense.  Or kiddie black belts.   You'll get lots of posts.


lol! I have this photograph for people who think Taekwondo is not crucial. I know it has a Chinese flag in the background but it is Taekwondo... in China


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 29, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Or try to post
> 
> - TKD "anti-grappling" strategy.
> - My TKD is "pure" and your TKD is not.


interesting I was just learning some grappling escapes the other day!


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 30, 2015)

Let's not encourage them to start pushing hot buttons...

This is a fairly active forum in general, with the "busy" sub-forum wandering around from day to day.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> so you think I should post in the general martial arts talk forum instead of Taekwondo?


I don't train TKD but I'm interested in all MA discussions. I'm just afraid to participate in TKD only discussion. When someone said, "You don't even train TKD. Nobody care about your opinion. Why are you still hanging around here?" I'll have too much shame and I'll get a rope, find a quite place, and hang myself.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Let's not encourage them to start pushing hot buttons...
> 
> This is a fairly active forum in general, with the "busy" sub-forum wandering around from day to day.


Glad to hear that... i just saw how old some of the posts were and didn't know what to think, but i look forward to sharing with everyone on this forum!


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't train TKD but I'm interested in all MA discussions. I'm just afraid to participate in TKD only discussion. When someone said, "You don't even train TKD. Nobody care about your opinion. Why are you still hanging around here?" I'll have too much shame and I'll get a rope, find a quite place, and hang myself.


That's fine that you don't train Taekwondo. I mean in my opinion most or all martial arts are highly formidable once you get really good at them.  which martial art you choose is really a matter of personal taste


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> That's fine that you don't train Taekwondo. I mean in my opinion most or all martial arts are highly formidable once you get really good at them.  which martial art you choose is really a matter of personal taste


and also please do not hang yourself because of what some martial art bigot says!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> That's fine that you don't train Taekwondo.


Since my wife has black belt in TKD, I'm not a total stranger.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since my wife has black belt in TKD, I'm not a total stranger.


I'm assuming by your name that your martial art is Kung Fu? what kind of Kung Fu do you practice if I am correct in assuming that Kung Fu is your martial art? and it looks like your wife has won some TKD awards! that's awesome!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I'm assuming by your name that your martial art is Kung Fu? what kind of Kung Fu do you practice if I am correct in assuming that Kung Fu is your martial art? and it looks like your wife has won some TKD awards! that's awesome!


I have cross trained many CMA systems. Both long fist and Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) are my major.

My wife likes to fight too. Every time we had some argument, we sparred for 15 rounds.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have cross trained many CMA systems. Both long fist and Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) are my major.
> 
> My wife likes to fight too. Every time we had some argument, we sparred for 15 rounds.


LOL @ you and your wife sparring when you have an argument. Chinese wrestling sounds awesome...to be honest I know very little about it. Is it like Brazilian Jiujitsu or Judo at all? Or Greco Roman Wrestling?


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## Drakanyst (Jun 30, 2015)

Taekwondo still gets people responding on the forums! It just depends on the post and how it is phrased. Kung Fu Wang has some good suggestions on posts.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 30, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> Glad to hear that... i just saw how old some of the posts were and didn't know what to think, but i look forward to sharing with everyone on this forum!


Try clicking on the "Active Topics" link at the top of the page and you'll see which threads have current discussion going on.


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## Buka (Jun 30, 2015)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Sinthetic.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> Chinese wrestling sounds awesome...to be honest I know very little about it. Is it like Brazilian Jiujitsu or Judo at all? Or Greco Roman Wrestling?


It's the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and some ground game. Here are some examples.

You can see a lot of kicks (similar to TKD kicks?) in both clips.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Drakanyst said:


> Taekwondo still gets people responding on the forums! It just depends on the post and how it is phrased. Kung Fu Wang has some good suggestions on posts.


I'm sure, I looked at how many posts each martial art has on this website, and Taekwondo has far and away the most posts


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 30, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I'm sure, I looked at how many posts each martial art has on this website, and Taekwondo has far and away the most posts



That might simply be because it is (currently) the most commonly practiced MA.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Try clicking on the "Active Topics" link at the top of the page and you'll see which threads have current discussion going on.


cool, thanks for the info.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and some ground game. Here are some examples.
> 
> You can see a lot of kicks (similar to TKD kicks?) in both clips.


interesting how both videos had a group of people fighting each other. It looks seriously fierce!!


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, Sinthetic.


thanks!


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Try clicking on the "Active Topics" link at the top of the page and you'll see which threads have current discussion going on.


cool, thanks for the info. I'm guessing that your martial art is Brazilian Jiujitsu?


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> That might simply be because it is (currently) the most commonly practiced MA.


makes sense


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 30, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> cool, thanks for the info. I'm guessing that your martial art is Brazilian Jiujitsu?


At the moment, BJJ is my primary art, although I try to get in some Muay Thai, Judo, Wrestling, and Boxing as time permits. I also have some past experience with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kali, and TKD and a smattering of other arts.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jun 30, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> At the moment, BJJ is my primary art, although I try to get in some Muay Thai, Judo, Wrestling, and Boxing as time permits. I also have some past experience with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kali, and TKD and a smattering of other arts.


fierce!! that is a great combo of martial arts!! my TKD school teaches a little bit of Brazilian Jiujitsu, basically how to escape from a submission grab and get back on your feet. If i was fighting in UFC and i had to choose one martial art, I'd probably go with Brazilian Jiujitsu


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## Manny (Jul 1, 2015)

Welkl let me introduce me I am Manny from Mexico a third degree black belt in TKD, a truly enamored of clasic TKD, I am a person that WTF TKD has decafeinated the ART of TKD, nice pic of a flying kick you pots by the way.

What are the topics you want to talk about?

El Manny


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 1, 2015)

nice to meet you Manny. that's awesome that you have a third degree black belt in TKD.  After practicing TKD for a while I became passionate about martial arts. I posted all kinds of videos and wrote a lot about how TKD is underrated. I felt like it was underrated because I went to a lot of forums that said it is a sport martial art for whatever reasons.  This website, however, seems to give TKD the credentials it deserves. My favorite thing to talk about is all things TKD. I also like talking about martial arts in general, though i have limited knowledge about them. Even with TKD i am no expert even though i've been practicing it for a while. Some of my favorite martial arts to talk about are MMA, BJJ, and Krav Maga. To be honest, on this website so far I have noticed a general lack of courtesy which turns me off. but i guess all forums are like that? i've seen some trash talking and that just isn't my thing. I like polite, courteous, respectful conversations about varying aspects of Martial Arts.


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## Drose427 (Jul 1, 2015)

First Geup in Moo Duk Kwan TKD (we're TSD though, I assume when my KJN left Korea he followed Kees steps towards unification, but not the other name changes, no idea for certain though) Up for 1st dan anytime

Got back into Boxing through starting kickboxing. My hands werent bad, but good boxing makes a huge difference in kickboxing.

Have a Background in Freestyle and submission wrestling.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 1, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> First Geup in Moo Duk Kwan TKD (we're TSD though, I assume when my KJN left Korea he followed Kees steps towards unification, but not the other name changes, no idea for certain though) Up for 1st dan anytime
> 
> Got back into Boxing through starting kickboxing. My hands werent bad, but good boxing makes a huge difference in kickboxing.
> 
> Have a Background in Freestyle and submission wrestling.


awesome, so you have all the bases covered... you could be a UFC fighter!  

I've only just heard of TSD... well i guess is been a while now... but yeah i met a 2nd degree blackbelt TSD fighter in one of my online school courses actually... he said it is highly similar to TKD. i'm not sure if that's true or not... Regrettably my knowledge of TSD is not where it needs to be... isn't Chuck Norris a 9th degree black belt in TSD?

I actually i had a friend who used to be regional champion kick boxer. He made damn good money too doing it. he was kind of crazy too... in a violent sort of way, like at some point i realized he was beating his girlfriend. so yeah psycho and champion kick boxer make for a pretty scary combination!


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I've only just heard of TSD... well i guess is been a while now... but yeah i met a 2nd degree blackbelt TSD fighter in one of my online school courses actually... he said it is highly similar to TKD. i'm not sure if that's true or not...



The search function will no doubt point you to a ton of threads covering this in detail. I know that I have covered the history in a fair bit of detail more than once.

Short version:
After the liberation of Korea from Japan at the end of WWII, various Kwan were formed, teaching various arts from various sources. Primarily Shotokan, but with others as well.
Tang Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation of the Hangul characters for "Karate-Do."
GM HWANG, Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan and taught Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.
An effort was begun to unify the various Kwan and develop a unified curriculum. This effort was interrupted by the Korean War.
After the war ended, the unification movement was reborn.
GM HWANG Kee joined the movement. 
Tae Kwon Do was chosen as the name for the unified art, and the art became known as Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan.
GM HWANG Kee left the movement for political reasons and returned to teaching Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.
GM HWANG obtained a copy of the Muye Dobo Tongji, a military manual purportedly written at the end of the 18th Century, and which includes a couple pages on unarmed combat.
GM HWANG incorporated his interpretation of these pages into his art and changed the name to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. Soo Bahk is the name of an historical Korean Martial Art, although nothing is really known about it beyond the name.

The history is something I've tried to study, because the school I teach at is Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan. Our Kwanjangnim was a direct student of GM HWANG prior to his departure from the unification movement, and a direct student of GM LEE, Kang-Ik who was chosen as GM HWANGS successor as Kwanjang of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The search function will no doubt point you to a ton of threads covering this in detail. I know that I have covered the history in a fair bit of detail more than once.
> 
> Short version:
> After the liberation of Korea from Japan at the end of WWII, various Kwan were formed, teaching various arts from various sources. Primarily Shotokan, but with others as well.
> ...


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 1, 2015)

cool! thanks for the info... its amazing the rich history all these martial arts have. my TKD Grandmaster actually trained two militaries in hand to hand combat


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> cool! thanks for the info... its amazing the rich history all these martial arts have. my TKD Grandmaster actually trained two militaries in hand to hand combat



Let's be realistic here...
A "military" would mean a group of thousands or hundreds of thousands. The US Army has a strength of something like 500,000 soldiers. That's not including the Air Force, the Navy, the Marines, the Coast Guard, etc etc etc.

Almost every highly ranked practitioner makes this claim, and it's true. Most of them have been instructors for their individual units. 
But it's not like they were training the entire army. Just their units.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Let's be realistic here...
> A "military" would mean a group of thousands or hundreds of thousands. The US Army has a strength of something like 500,000 soldiers. That's not including the Air Force, the Navy, the Marines, the Coast Guard, etc etc etc.
> 
> Almost every highly ranked practitioner makes this claim, and it's true. Most of them have been instructors for their individual units.
> But it's not like they were training the entire army. Just their units.


good point, never thought about it. and i'm not sure which countries he trained units at.  but he's a pretty tough dude. he's a good guy but he has a temper. He got pissed at me just yesterday actually because i wasn't catching on fast enough. personally i prefer more patient, laid back instructors cause i'm kinda dumb and am a slow learner, especially when it comes to the forms, so fortunately all the other Sa Bum Nims at my school are much more merciful than Grandmaster Chung.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 1, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> good point, never thought about it. and i'm not sure which countries he trained units at.  but he's a pretty tough dude. he's a good guy but he has a temper. He got pissed at me just yesterday actually because i wasn't catching on fast enough. personally i prefer more patient, laid back instructors cause i'm kinda dumb and am a slow learner, especially when it comes to the forms, so fortunately all the other Sa Bum Nims at my school are much more merciful than Grandmaster Chung.



I don't think temper has any place in the dojang. One of the 5 tenets of TKD is self-control, after all.
Now, if I'm working with a student I've known for a fair while, and they're not learning at the pace I know they're capable of, I might get on them about practicing at home. But I wouldn't lose my temper. That's not helpful to anybody.

And just to pick a nit... Sabum (one word...) is a Korean title. It means "teacher", basically. Nim is an honorific, so that Sabumnim means, essentially "respected teacher". Sticking an "s" at the end does NOT make it plural, for the simple fact that it's not an English word. In Korean, there is often no pluralization of words. If one is needed, it's done by adding "deul" to the word. So Sabumdeul would be the plural of Sabum. Most would just say 'the other Sabumnim [...]." because the plural is inherent in both "all the other" and "are."

We all use words incorrectly, especially in foreign languages, but if nobody points out the correct usage, we never learn.
I certainly am not fluent in Korean, but I am learning, and I know (because it's happened...) that when I post something incorrect, others will let me know.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 1, 2015)

cool thanks for letting me know about the Korean titles. to be honest i googled it because i keep forgetting it lol. i partied too hard in my early-mid twenties and it messed up my short term memory. I still can't count to ten in Korean... which we always do when doing pushups or jumping jacks or whatever.

tell me what you think about this... every 6 weeks maybe a little more comes belt testing time, and you don't get to decide whether or not you test, it is mandatory, and it costs 60$. this kind of made me feel like Grandmaster Chung is just out for the money.  That would make me sad as i have a lot of respect for the guy. sparring gear at the school costs 350$ which is a huge rip off (i can get it off the internet for 140$) but you are required to buy it from the school. Now i can understand that they need money, and can even deal with paying for the super over price sparring gear, but the being forced to test every time testing time comes just bothers me... maybe all martial arts schools do that? i don't know. cause i want to master the techniques as i go along, so once i do get my black belt, it won't be a half *** blackbelt... what i mean by half *** blackbelt is people who memorize the forms and get flexible but don't properly master the moves. this is one of my gripes with being forced to test every time testing time comes... i want to move up the ranks when i am well and ready, but maybe all martial arts schools are like that i don't know


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> cool thanks for letting me know about the Korean titles. to be honest i googled it because i keep forgetting it lol. i partied too hard in my early-mid twenties and it messed up my short term memory. I still can't count to ten in Korean... which we always do when doing pushups or jumping jacks or whatever.



There are at least three ways to count in Korean... 



sinthetik_mistik said:


> tell me what you think about this... every 6 weeks maybe a little more comes belt testing time, and you don't get to decide whether or not you test, it is mandatory, and it costs 60$. this kind of made me feel like Grandmaster Chung is just out for the money.  That would make me sad as i have a lot of respect for the guy. sparring gear at the school costs 350$ which is a huge rip off (i can get it off the internet for 140$) but you are required to buy it from the school. Now i can understand that they need money, and can even deal with paying for the super over price sparring gear, but the being forced to test every time testing time comes just bothers me... maybe all martial arts schools do that? i don't know. cause i want to master the techniques as i go along, so once i do get my black belt, it won't be a half *** blackbelt... what i mean by half *** blackbelt is people who memorize the forms and get flexible but don't properly master the moves. this is one of my gripes with being forced to test every time testing time comes... i want to move up the ranks when i am well and ready, but maybe all martial arts schools are like that i don't know



Commercial schools have to pay the rent. That's reality.
Personally, I am opposed to pretty much everything you mention, but our school isn't commercial. That makes a huge difference.
So you're required to test. Does everybody pass? If you can fail (and do) do you have to pay again for the same test in another six weeks?

I teach in a YMCA-based school. It's not commercial, so our realities are not the same as those of your school.
Here's how it works in our school.
Promotional exams are offered once a month, but only if we have people who are ready to promote.
We don't really have tests. We "test" students by watching their day to day performance. If they're performing at the level of the next rank, then it's time to promote.
If, on test day, a student is unable to perform to standard, their promotion is "pending", until such time as they meet the standard. If they get nervous and blow a form, we just let them do it over. I've never seen anybody unable to meet the standard on a do-over. The "pending" promotions have pretty much entirely been because of a failed break. So they keep trying, and when they succeed, they get promoted.
We do not do baby black belts. The youngest we've awarded was a few months shy of her 18th birthday, and she'd been with the program since she was 6. 
Average time to 1st Dan is 6-8 years.
The schools Master will sell people a dobak for like $20. On the other hand, growing students have given more than one dobak back, and they're passed on. Money is a real issue for many of our students. Sparring gear is mostly bought online, and we have a few sets of "loaner" stuff.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are at least three ways to count in Korean...
> I don't even care so much about the money... its the principle. they want more money? i'll give them more money, i love my dojang have been going for around half a year. Grandmaster Chung has a dojang here in Atlanta and one in Miami. but yeah if they need more money that's fine i can pay... just not in the context of them not allowing me to not take a test when i'm not ready.  I've gotten to the point where i can deliver some pretty potent kicks, and my flexibility has marginally increased. my weak spot is memorizing the forms, and my other weak spot is my stamina, i'm not in terrible shape but i do have mild asthma, and i have a gut too, not a huge gut, but a gut nevertheless
> Interesting what you said about baby black belts. I sparred with a black belt well under half my age, and i won! to me that is an example of a half *** black belt. if i sparred against, say, my instructor Cesar, i would be laying on my back before i even knew what happened.
> your school sounds great, and i love the picture of you breaking all those cement blocks... that's very impressive. average first dan at my school is more like 2 years... maybe 3. anyways thanks for your input and happy kicking!
> ...


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

I don't even care so much about the money... its the principle. they want more money? i'll give them more money, i love my dojang have been going for around half a year. Grandmaster Chung has a dojang here in Atlanta and one in Miami. but yeah if they need more money that's fine i can pay... just not in the context of them not allowing me to not take a test when i'm not ready. I've gotten to the point where i can deliver some pretty potent kicks, and my flexibility has marginally increased. my weak spot is memorizing the forms, and my other weak spot is my stamina, i'm not in terrible shape but i do have mild asthma, and i have a gut too, not a huge gut, but a gut nevertheless 
Interesting what you said about baby black belts. I sparred with a black belt well under half my age, and i won! to me that is an example of a half *** black belt. if i sparred against, say, my instructor Cesar, i would be laying on my back before i even knew what happened.
your school sounds great, and i love the picture of you breaking all those cement blocks... that's very impressive. average first dan at my school is more like 2 years... maybe 3. anyways thanks for your input and happy kicking!


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you're required to test. Does everybody pass? If you can fail (and do) do you have to pay again for the same test in another six weeks?



People usually pass... as far as having to pay twice, i'm actually not sure. i skipped out  on at least one testing day, but am scared to do it again because I'm a little scared of Grandmaster Chung. He's kind of funny sometimes too because he always goes "Hellooooo?" in a thick Korean accent. he's basically a character. interesting you said anger has no place in the Dojang. i got kind of offended when he basically disrespected me while we were doing nunchuck practice, until Master Yu  stepped in and started helping me, (Master Yu is way nicer than Grandmaster Chung) i was thinking if Chung did that **** to me again i'd throw the nunchucks at him and storm out of the dojang. but i'm prob not gonna do that


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## TrueJim (Jul 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are at least three ways to count in Korean...



I know of the traditional Korean (hanah, dool, set...) and the sino-Korean (il, ee, sam...).  What's the third way?


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## TrueJim (Jul 2, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> tell me what you think about this... every 6 weeks maybe a little more comes belt testing time, and you don't get to decide whether or not you test, it is mandatory, and it costs 60$. this kind of made me feel like Grandmaster Chung is just out for the money.  That would make me sad as i have a lot of respect for the guy. sparring gear at the school costs 350$ which is a huge rip off (i can get it off the internet for 140$) but you are required to buy it from the school. Now i can understand that they need money, and can even deal with paying for the super over price sparring gear, but the being forced to test every time testing time comes just bothers me... maybe all martial arts schools do that? i don't know. cause i want to master the techniques as i go along, so once i do get my black belt, it won't be a half *** blackbelt... what i mean by half *** blackbelt is people who memorize the forms and get flexible but don't properly master the moves. this is one of my gripes with being forced to test every time testing time comes... i want to move up the ranks when i am well and ready, but maybe all martial arts schools are like that i don't know



I normally try not to be too opinionated in forums, but...

My son and I *do* go to a commercial school, and I have to say from my point of view this sounds cra-a-a-azz-a-a-ay!

The $60 color-belt testing fee sounds high, but that's not the disturbing part. I know at my school, the testing fee in-part cover's the school's cost for the new belts they give you, the trophies they hand out, incidental items for the award ceremony, etc. (The next day after testing, at the award ceremony, they give out trophies for things like best poomsae, best breaking, etc. And then we have a potluck, so they're buying a bunch of paper plates and stuff. Yum!) So maybe your school is using some of that $60 to cover some testing costs, so okay. But...


Testing is mandatory? I know we're supposed to be open-minded about how other schools do things, but that makes no sense to me. Like you say...how can a school _force_ somebody to test when the person doesn't feel ready yet? I know in my case I often took an extra month or more to make sure my son and I were both confident in our abilities before we opted to test.


You can't wear non-school sparring gear? Our school is a Kukkiwon/WTF-style school...any WTF-approved sparring gear is allowed in class. Why would it not be? It's the same gear you're going to wear to the next tournament, so of course you want the students in the sparring gear they like best.


I don't have any complaint with schools marking-up the cost of items to cover their own costs. It is a business after all. (My school doesn't really do that per se, they mostly just round-up the prices so they're not dealing with small dollars and cents. But I can see why some schools would add 20% of whatever to cover holding costs and whatnot.) But more than _doubling_ the price of gear makes no sense to me.
Anyway, I'm not trying to rag on your school. Just providing some information: the school my son and I attend is as commercial as they come. It's in a big (but pretty) shopping center with after-school and summer-camp programs, etc...all the trappings of "McDojos" that some people dislike (though I personally wouldn't describe it as a McDojo.) The stuff you're describing doesn't sound typical of any of the schools in our area (we parents often compare notes on local dojangs, so I do have some notion of how the other local dojangs operate too.)






Pretty shopping center, our school is behind your left shoulder in this shot

By the way...a sabumnim with a _temper_...I have to agree with that prior comment too. I know we're all human, and that some teachers are more short-tempered than others, but personally I think somebody with a bad temper is probably ill-suited to teaching anything in general, and martial arts in particular.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 2, 2015)

A few thoughts.  I was at a school with somewhat mandatory testing - you could delay but not forever.  The stated reason was for continuous improvement, and you mention perhaps money as another reason.  The 3rd big reason I see is consistency amongst belts; a person who is far better than others for his belt may be demotivating to other students.

In terms of equipment, I would guess one of the reason for needing to buy at the school is to ensure that it is WTF-style.  Personally, I'd rather a rule that the equipment must say WTF on it, or be purchased at the school. (The difference between the two is that a school may purchase WTF-style from a knock-off manufacturer).


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I don't even care so much about the money... its the principle. they want more money? i'll give them more money, i love my dojang have been going for around half a year. Grandmaster Chung has a dojang here in Atlanta and one in Miami. but yeah if they need more money that's fine i can pay...



It's a fact of life that most people, when comparing schools, will just look at the monthly fee. Just as car manufacturers advertise the "base" price for a stripped down model. Or airlines advertise the cheapest fare, while adding on fees for checked baggage, carryon baggage, and the in-flight movie.
It's all part and parcel of running a commercial school.



sinthetik_mistik said:


> just not in the context of them not allowing me to not take a test when i'm not ready. I've gotten to the point where i can deliver some pretty potent kicks, and my flexibility has marginally increased. my weak spot is memorizing the forms, and my other weak spot is my stamina, i'm not in terrible shape but i do have mild asthma, and i have a gut too, not a huge gut, but a gut nevertheless



While I am philosophically opposed to mandatory testing, it's also true that your instructor is a better judge of your readiness to test than you are. We don't expect an 8th geup to kick like a 3rd geup. If you're having trouble learning forms, re-consider how you're learning them. Too many people just try to memorize them as a series of movements. While that may work for some, it does not work for me. I learn forms by envisioning an attacker. WHY I'm doing this movement is, to my mind, as important as the movement itself.



sinthetik_mistik said:


> Interesting what you said about baby black belts. I sparred with a black belt well under half my age, and i won! to me that is an example of a half *** black belt. if i sparred against, say, my instructor Cesar, i would be laying on my back before i even knew what happened.



Why? There's no benefit to pummeling a student. All that teaches them is that sparring means getting their butt kicked. When sparring with a junior, it's the seniors role to fight at the level of the junior. In short, if I am sparring a 9th geup, and the make proper use of the techniques they've been taught, they will hit me. Nor do they need to worry that I'm going to attack them with techniques they've never been taught.



sinthetik_mistik said:


> People usually pass... as far as having to pay twice, i'm actually not sure. i skipped out  on at least one testing day, but am scared to do it again because I'm a little scared of Grandmaster Chung. He's kind of funny sometimes too because he always goes "Hellooooo?" in a thick Korean accent. he's basically a character. interesting you said anger has no place in the Dojang. i got kind of offended when he basically disrespected me while we were doing nunchuck practice, until Master Yu  stepped in and started helping me, (Master Yu is way nicer than Grandmaster Chung) i was thinking if Chung did that **** to me again i'd throw the nunchucks at him and storm out of the dojang. but i'm prob not gonna do that



I always wonder why people study Chinese weapons in a Korean MA school. Never makes sense to me...



TrueJim said:


> I know of the traditional Korean (hanah, dool, set...) and the sino-Korean (il, ee, sam...).  What's the third way?



Ordinals, of course. Cheotjae (first), dujae (second) etc.


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## TrueJim (Jul 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I always wonder why people study Chinese weapons in a Korean MA school. Never makes sense to me...



I've always found it a bit odd too. I know this is going to sound crazy, but when you think about it, it seems to me the only weapons that might be called a _taekwondo_ weapon specifically is a bayonet...in the sense that bayonet training was (as I understand it) a big part of the hand-to-hand combat training that Korean soldiers were given after World War II. And then if you want to broaden things a bit to include traditional Korean weapons in general: the bow, the spear, and the sword come to mind...certainly not nunchucks.

But then when you look at what weapons are actually taught in taekwondo schools that teach weapons: things like nunchucks, eskrima, kama, sai, jitte...I'm not seeing anything particularly taekwondo-ish or Korean-ish about those? You might as well teach blowguns and bolas.

Here's something else odd: because some taekwondo schools do teach weapons, I felt obliged to create a _weapons_ page on the wiki, not expecting it to get much traffic, and yet it's consistently one of the most-viewed pages on the wiki:








Dirty Dog said:


> Ordinals, of course. Cheotjae (first), dujae (second) etc.



D'oh!


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I've always found it a bit odd too. I know this is going to sound crazy, but when you think about it, it seems to me the only weapons that might be called a _taekwondo_ weapon specifically is a bayonet...in the sense that bayonet training was (as I understand it) a big part of the hand-to-hand combat training that Korean soldiers were given after World War II. And then if you want to broaden things a bit to include traditional Korean weapons in general: the bow, the spear, and the sword come to mind...certainly not nunchucks.



The traditional weapons of taekwondo are the hands. The feet. The elbows. The knees...
Taekwondo has never actually included *any* weapons training. Schools that do have added it from other arts.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy weapons training. Sticks. Bladed weapons. Guns.
But I don't mistake that training for taekwondo.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I normally try not to be too opinionated in forums, but...
> 
> My son and I *do* go to a commercial school, and I have to say from my point of view this sounds cra-a-a-azz-a-a-ay!
> 
> ...



actually that was really helpful, thanks. I'm surprised that you don't have to buy sparring gear at your school.  Isn't it crazy that testing is mandatory at our school? I don't know what to do... I have been training at this dojang for a little over half a year, and really don't feel like changing dojangs. I think the real culprit is Grandmaster Chung... i don't know what his deal is. When i first started training at this dojang, he told me to keep coming back. at the time i thought 'that's nice, he wants me to continue with my martial arts" now i'm wondering if he said that because he wants my money! Funny thing is, I trained at Shaolin Kung Fu before, and the master there also had a temper. i guess once these guys get so super advanced in their respective martial art, it goes to their head? now in light of that, I am *not* trying to say that all martial arts Masters or Grandmasters are egotistical with a temper. Actually, Shaolin Kung Fu was way worse then the Taekwondo school i am currently attending. there were a whole bunch of teachers there, one of them, while training me, told me he can beat my *** (which is true but still get a little modesty!) i got yelled at by another trainer because i wasn't learning fast enough, and I saw a fourth degree black belt making fun of a new student because he failed miserably at doing a proper horse stance (which takes a long time to master) i mean he was really making fun of him badly. i mean who's gonna say anything? the dude can beat some ***.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The traditional weapons of taekwondo are the hands. The feet. The elbows. The knees...
> Taekwondo has never actually included *any* weapons training. Schools that do have added it from other arts.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I enjoy weapons training. Sticks. Bladed weapons. Guns.
> But I don't mistake that training for taekwondo.



your TKD school allows elbows and knees? mine doesn't. actually elbows i'm not positive about but i know that my dojang does not allow knees


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> While I am philosophically opposed to mandatory testing, it's also true that your instructor is a better judge of your readiness to test than you are. We don't expect an 8th geup to kick like a 3rd geup. If you're having trouble learning forms, re-consider how you're learning them. Too many people just try to memorize them as a series of movements. While that may work for some, it does not work for me. I learn forms by envisioning an attacker. WHY I'm doing this movement is, to my mind, as important as the movement itself.



that's actually great advice thanks. I'm gonna try that. i was just trying to study the moves through memorization. i'll try and do what you do, maybe that will make it easier for me.



Dirty Dog said:


> Why? There's no benefit to pummeling a student. All that teaches them is that sparring means getting their butt kicked. When sparring with a junior, it's the seniors role to fight at the level of the junior. In short, if I am sparring a 9th geup, and the make proper use of the techniques they've been taught, they will hit me. Nor do they need to worry that I'm going to attack them with techniques they've never been taught.



I didn't actually pummel her.  In fact, since i didn't have sparring gear, it was a no contact sparring. although at one point she started getting mad and started kicking me as hard as she could, and it didn't even hurt much.  she wasn't too young... maybe 15-16... well thats pretty young. there were so many things that she, as a black belt, could have, should have done to evade my kicks and do a flying spin kick to the face! if she really is a black belt... in my opinion she is a half *** blackbelt. actually i haven't seen her in a while... she may have dropped out. but yeah i would never hit a 16 year old girl outside of sparring... even in full contact sparring, i'd feel uncomfortable striking a girl half my age, for one thing i don't believe in hitting women, and for another thing i don't believe in hitting teenagers


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> your TKD school allows elbows and knees? mine doesn't. actually elbows i'm not positive about but i know that my dojang does not allow knees



What's trained, and what's allowed in sparring, are two different things. Of course we train elbows and knees. But they're not allowed in sparring, generally.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> What's trained, and what's allowed in sparring, are two different things. Of course we train elbows and knees. But they're not allowed in sparring, generally.



oh ok. yeah my school is dual purpose, to train students for competitions as well as training for self defense on the street


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## TrueJim (Jul 2, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Taekwondo has never actually included *any* weapons training...



Let me make a case for bayonet:

*1946 onward* - As I understand it, when Choi Hong Hi taught martial arts in the military, he included bayonet training as part of the instruction. This first started in 1946 when he was a Lieutenant at Kwang Ju military base. I believe bayonet training remained part of his military curriculum through the mid-1950s. (For that part, I'm working from memory from things I've read...I don't have a reference at my fingertips, but I think it's true.)

*1955* - Choi Hong Hi and Nam Tae Hi establish the Oh Do Kwan for training the 29th Infantry Division. Again, I believe bayonet training was still part of Choi's military curriculum at this point.

*1957* - This is when General Choi started to promote the name _taekwondo_. He was still in charge of Oh Do Kwan at this time on both the civilian- and military-training side.

So arguably, Choi was calling what he taught taekwondo, and it included (at least on the military side) bayonet training. If I'm right about all that, then there was one kwan teaching something that it called taekwondo that included bayonet training as part of the curriculum.

I suppose the counter-argument to this would be that Choi didn't include bayonet techniques in any of his early writings, such as his Taekwondo Training Manual.

I mention this because as I was reading through taekwondo histories a while back I was struck by how often bayonet training was mentioned, and yet knife training (as one example) was never mentioned.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Let me make a case for bayonet:
> 
> *1946 onward* - As I understand it, when Choi Hong Hi taught martial arts in the military, he included bayonet training as part of the instruction. This first started in 1946 when he was a Lieutenant at Kwang Ju military base. I believe bayonet training remained part of his military curriculum through the mid-1950s. (For that part, I'm working from memory from things I've read...I don't have a reference at my fingertips, but I think it's true.)
> 
> ...



I could have sworn that nunchucks are commonly used in Taekwondo... i might be wrong. my school does, and on the internet i have seen a lot of other TKD schools that do... maybe it's not an inherent part of TKD but i think a lot of TKD schools use nunchucks


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## TrueJim (Jul 2, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I could have sworn that nunchucks are commonly used in Taekwondo... i might be wrong. my school does, and on the internet i have seen a lot of other TKD schools that do... maybe it's not an inherent part of TKD but i think a lot of TKD schools use nunchucks



I agree, a lot of taekwondo schools teach nunchucks, bo staff, etc.

When you look at General Choi's Encyclopedia though, you don't see any mention of using weapons, so for the ITF/Chang Hon-style I think it's fair to say that weapons training is not a formal part of the _official_ curriculum. And then when you look at Kukkiwon's Taekwondo Textbook, again there's no mention of weapons training. So for the two biggest styles of taekwondo (ITF/Chang Hon and WTF/Kukkiwon) weapons-training is something that individual schools might add, but weapons aren't part of the formal curriculums (curricula).

I think for ATA-style, weapons *are* a formal part of the curriculum though. I know for Chuck Norris's Chun Kuk Do (which is related to Tang Soo Do, which is related to Taekwondo) weapons training is also a formal part of the curriculum (because they have actual bo-staff forms in the curriculum). And then there's a guy named Bok Man Kim who developed a taekwondo hybrid called Chun Kuhn Do that includes weapons training, including....(wait for it!)...bayonet training.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 2, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I agree, a lot of taekwondo schools teach nunchucks, bo staff, etc.
> 
> When you look at General Choi's Encyclopedia though, you don't see any mention of using weapons, so for the ITF/Chang Hon-style I think it's fair to say that weapons training is not a formal part of the _official_ curriculum. And then when you look at Kukkiwon's Taekwondo Textbook, again there's no mention of weapons training. So for the two biggest styles of taekwondo (ITF/Chang Hon and WTF/Kukkiwon) weapons-training is something that individual schools might add, but weapons aren't part of the formal curriculums (curricula).
> 
> I think for ATA-style, weapons *are* a formal part of the curriculum though. I know for Chuck Norris's Chun Kuk Do (which is related to Tang Soo Do, which is related to Taekwondo) weapons training is also a formal part of the curriculum (because they have actual bo-staff forms in the curriculum). And then there's a guy named Bok Man Kim who developed a taekwondo hybrid called Chun Kuhn Do that includes weapons training, including....(wait for it!)...bayonet training.



cool, thanks for the info. speaking of bo-staffs, my TKD school teaches that as well actually. those are the only two weapons my school teaches i believe... nunchucks and bo staff.  (i think nunchucks are more fun but that's just my opinion ) interesting that for American Taekwondo they inserted weapons into the curriculum.

speaking of nunchucks, this video is a must see!!! 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1152149304812145


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## Manny (Jul 3, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> nice to meet you Manny. that's awesome that you have a third degree black belt in TKD.  After practicing TKD for a while I became passionate about martial arts. I posted all kinds of videos and wrote a lot about how TKD is underrated. I felt like it was underrated because I went to a lot of forums that said it is a sport martial art for whatever reasons.  This website, however, seems to give TKD the credentials it deserves. My favorite thing to talk about is all things TKD. I also like talking about martial arts in general, though i have limited knowledge about them. Even with TKD i am no expert even though i've been practicing it for a while. Some of my favorite martial arts to talk about are MMA, BJJ, and Krav Maga. To be honest, on this website so far I have noticed a general lack of courtesy which turns me off. but i guess all forums are like that? i've seen some trash talking and that just isn't my thing. I like polite, courteous, respectful conversations about varying aspects of Martial Arts.



Well I think TKD is an awesome martial art, however I am not blind and know that a little extra of something is good for me and for TKD, that's why I crosstrained in American Kenpo Karate, dis some judo when i Was a boy and did some aikido some months ago.

What really bothers me is the way TKD is presented these days, I eman rigtht now TKD is a kidie sport oriented kind of martial art and you know, the focus on competition is heavy while the true martial art in some ways is fading away.

I am not againts sport tkd but what really piss me off is the great effort to almost everyone inside tkd to do only competition.

I will be gled to keep in topuch with you and discuss so mmany things about martial arts.

El Manny


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 3, 2015)

Manny said:


> Well I think TKD is an awesome martial art, however I am not blind and know that a little extra of something is good for me and for TKD, that's why I crosstrained in American Kenpo Karate, dis some judo when i Was a boy and did some aikido some months ago.
> 
> What really bothers me is the way TKD is presented these days, I eman rigtht now TKD is a kidie sport oriented kind of martial art and you know, the focus on competition is heavy while the true martial art in some ways is fading away.
> 
> ...



I think Judo is a great idea, in my opinion, the optimum martial artists is versed in both striking and grappling. My TKD does some BJJ but not a lot. in light of that, i kind of prefer striking to grappling, to me it is more fun. i still might take up BJJ or Judo or something at some point. Aikido is a great martial art too, i know a few people who take it. as far as people trying to make TKD into a sport and only a sport, it all depends on your dojang. sometimes it can be difficult to find a quality dojang, due to the fact that TKD is the most popular martial art on earth means there are plenty to choose from.  my dojang teaches both the sport aspect of it and the self defense aspect of it. so while we are sparring, we do the sport TKD. but oftentimes in practice, we do the self defense aspect. for instance, during sparring we are not allowed to punch the face, which everyone knows is forbidden in TKD. however, during practice, we practice face punches. despite the fact that my dojang is WTF, we still do a lot of punching, not in sparring but in training.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I think Judo is a great idea, in my opinion, the optimum martial artists is versed in both striking and grappling. My TKD does some BJJ but not a lot. in light of that, i kind of prefer striking to grappling, to me it is more fun. i still might take up BJJ or Judo or something at some point. Aikido is a great martial art too, i know a few people who take it. as far as people trying to make TKD into a sport and only a sport, it all depends on your dojang. sometimes it can be difficult to find a quality dojang, due to the fact that TKD is the most popular martial art on earth means there are plenty to choose from.  my dojang teaches both the sport aspect of it and the self defense aspect of it. so while we are sparring, we do the sport TKD. but oftentimes in practice, we do the self defense aspect. for instance, during sparring we are not allowed to punch the face, which everyone knows is forbidden in TKD. however, during practice, we practice face punches. despite the fact that my dojang is WTF, we still do a lot of punching, not in sparring but in training.



TKD includes throws, joint locks, takedowns... this material may be left out in some schools, and that is sad. But it's there. 
In my experience, most arts cover all the bases. Eventually. It's more a matter of emphasis and timing.
And just FYI, there is no such thing as WTF taekwondo. Your school is (most likely) affiliated with the Kukkiwon. The WTF is strictly for the promotion and supervision of Olympic competition. Nothing more.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 3, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> TKD includes throws, joint locks, takedowns... this material may be left out in some schools, and that is sad. But it's there.
> In my experience, most arts cover all the bases. Eventually. It's more a matter of emphasis and timing.
> And just FYI, there is no such thing as WTF taekwondo. Your school is (most likely) affiliated with the Kukkiwon. The WTF is strictly for the promotion and supervision of Olympic competition. Nothing more.



i did not know that about no such thing as WTF. i also did not know that takedowns and whatnot were a part of TKD... like i said we do some but not a lot. maybe as i continue to advance we will do more... now that i think about it i see the black belts doing takedowns a lot more than the rest of us. it may be true that most arts cover all the bases, but i think varying martial arts put more emphasis on various techniques. for instance, BJJ has strikes but puts more emphasis on takedowns than TKD, and TKD has grappling but puts more emphasis on striking than BJJ. that's just my understanding


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 4, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> i did not know that about no such thing as WTF. i also did not know that takedowns and whatnot were a part of TKD... like i said we do some but not a lot. maybe as i continue to advance we will do more... now that i think about it i see the black belts doing takedowns a lot more than the rest of us. it may be true that most arts cover all the bases, but i think varying martial arts put more emphasis on various techniques. for instance, BJJ has strikes but puts more emphasis on takedowns than TKD, and TKD has grappling but puts more emphasis on striking than BJJ. that's just my understanding



That's why I said "it's more a matter of emphasis and timing"... TKD teaches strikes first and foremost, but if you're being taught the entire art, it will include takedowns, throws and joint locks. 
Fact is, you're probably being taught them now, even if you're not aware of it. I don't know which forms your school uses, but if it's a KKW school (as seems likely from things you've said), you're likely learning the taegeuk forms. There are throws, takedowns and locks in those forms. They're just not obvious, since they're one-person forms.


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## TrueJim (Jul 4, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> i did not know that about no such thing as WTF...



Yah technically the name of the *style* is Kukkiwon-style, since it's defined by the Kukkiwon. You can read more about the Kukkiwon here: Kukkiwon - Taekwondo Wiki

That having been said, it's very common for people to refer to this as WTF-style. I just ran into another example of this yesterday. Somebody I don't know emailed me about something related to the taekwondo wiki, and they mentioned that they had just started at this school: About Red Phoenix Tae Kwon Do  When I went to the link for that school, I saw:

Master Cha's life has been devoted to his pursuit of Tae Kwon Do. Presently he holds a *World Tae Kwon Do Federation* 7th degree Black Belt.
So why would Master Cha describe his belt as being a WTF 7th degree instead of a  Kukkiwon 7th degree? The WTF is the sports federation responsible for Olympic taekwondo, it's associated with the Kukkiwon-style, and more people have heard of the WTF than of the Kukkiwon. So if you're trying to advertise how awesome your school is, it's better advertising to say it's a WTF school than to say it's a Kukkiwon school.

By the way, I looked up that school on the Kukkiwon's dojang-finder just to confirm that indeed, it really is a Kukkiwon-registered school.

I think the ATA folks have a _somewhat_ similar problems. Technically the name of the style is Songahm-style taekwondo, but that's the style defined by the American Taekwondo Association (ATA), so everybody just calls it ATA-style, which technically isn't accurate.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 4, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's why I said "it's more a matter of emphasis and timing"... TKD teaches strikes first and foremost, but if you're being taught the entire art, it will include takedowns, throws and joint locks.
> Fact is, you're probably being taught them now, even if you're not aware of it. I don't know which forms your school uses, but if it's a KKW school (as seems likely from things you've said), you're likely learning the taegeuk forms. There are throws, takedowns and locks in those forms. They're just not obvious, since they're one-person forms.



actually... after what everyone told me about my school... i am thinking pretty seriously about changing schools. I was looking for a TKD school taught at a YMCA near where i live actually because of you actually... haven't found one yet. and though i love TKD, i am open to the possibility of changing to a different martial art. There is an MMA place near where I live... but yeah from the grappling i have done i didn't like it much, although to be a balanced fighter i feel like i need to learn some, but i prefer striking, its more fun to me, just my personal preference. maybe i haven't given grappling enough of a chance


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 4, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Yah technically the name of the *style* is Kukkiwon-style, since it's defined by the Kukkiwon. You can read more about the Kukkiwon here: Kukkiwon - Taekwondo Wiki
> 
> That having been said, it's very common for people to refer to this as WTF-style. I just ran into another example of this yesterday. Somebody I don't know emailed me about something related to the taekwondo wiki, and they mentioned that they had just started at this school: About Red Phoenix Tae Kwon Do  When I went to the link for that school, I saw:
> 
> ...



my TKD school told me there is WTF TKD and ITF TKD. there may be more that i am unaware of. i always thought it was funny that the martial art is named "WTF" (as in what the f***) lol . but yeah its news to me that the real term is Kukkiwon. but yeah, thanks for all the info!


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## TrueJim (Jul 5, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> my TKD school told me there is WTF TKD and ITF TKD. there may be more that i am unaware of. i always thought it was funny that the martial art is named "WTF" (as in what the f***) lol . but yeah its news to me that the real term is Kukkiwon. but yeah, thanks for all the info!



The two biggest styles are:

Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo Federation - WTF
Chang Hon/International Taekwon-do Federation - ITF, which is actually split into three distinct federations that all go by the same name and practice more-or-less the same style
In the U.S.:

Songahm/American Taekwondo Association - ATA is also popular
Then there are a number of niche styles.

Jhoon Rhee, the first taekwondo instructor living in the U.S., has his own style that's simply called Jhoon Rhee style (I believe)
There's a niche style called Ho-Am style, also known as Tiger Rock
There's another niche style called Wan Jeon Han
And then there are a number of "traditional taekwondo" styles that go by the names of the kwans from which they originated.
To my knowledge, those are all the styles of martial arts that call themselves taekwondo. Then on top of that there are a number of hybrid martial arts that incorporate taekwondo. You can find a full list here: Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 5, 2015)

I am thinking pretty seriously about changing dojangs because there are a number of things about my current one that really bother me... temperamental Grandmaster, 350$ for training gear, being forced to take tests during testing time (which just so happens to cost 60 dollars!), very, very few adults, there is no class that is just for adults, just adults and teenagers, with a minimum age of 12, but sometimes kids even younger than that are training with us... I'm 31 years old, I don't want to train with a 9 year old! sometimes i feel like Dwight Schrute from the tv show the Office (there is an episode showing him practicing karate with a bunch of kids) so yeah there are a bunch of things about my dojang that i don't like... but i'm starting to suspect that a LOT of dojangs are just as bad as mine...maybe due to the fact that TKD is the most popular martial art in the world there are so many bull**** dojangs.  i don't want to bash too hard on my current dojang, i have had a lot of fun training at it, and aside from the Grandmaster (who is nice sometimes) all of the other teachers are super nice and super patient.

I noticed that you mentioned that there is a style of TKD called Tiger Rock, which is the name of the school that i am considering transitioning to, i thought it was just the name of the school, not the name of the style. would you recommend it? it is the only TKD place I can find in my area that doesn't look like a kindergarten camp, although it does have a  kids camp, but it claims to have a very serious adult portion as well, i'm gonna call them tomorrow and ask a lot of questions to see if they are what i'm looking for. with all the TKD schools in my area, there's got to be ONE that isn't a kiddie money machine dojang!


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## WaterGal (Jul 5, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> lol! I have this photograph for people who think Taekwondo is not crucial. I know it has a Chinese flag in the background but it is Taekwondo... in ChinaView attachment 19352



Ack, that board holder is just asking to get kicked in the chest holding the board like that for that kick.  I say that from experience, hahaha.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 6, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Ack, that board holder is just asking to get kicked in the chest holding the board like that for that kick.  I say that from experience, hahaha.


good point, i wondered about that


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## WaterGal (Jul 6, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> tell me what you think about this... every 6 weeks maybe a little more comes belt testing time, and you don't get to decide whether or not you test, it is mandatory, and it costs 60$. this kind of made me feel like Grandmaster Chung is just out for the money.  That would make me sad as i have a lot of respect for the guy. sparring gear at the school costs 350$ which is a huge rip off (i can get it off the internet for 140$) but you are required to buy it from the school. Now i can understand that they need money, and can even deal with paying for the super over price sparring gear, but the being forced to test every time testing time comes just bothers me... maybe all martial arts schools do that? i don't know. cause i want to master the techniques as i go along, so once i do get my black belt, it won't be a half *** blackbelt... what i mean by half *** blackbelt is people who memorize the forms and get flexible but don't properly master the moves. this is one of my gripes with being forced to test every time testing time comes... i want to move up the ranks when i am well and ready, but maybe all martial arts schools are like that i don't know



The mandatory testing would be a red flag for me.  

Some background - my fiancé and I have a commercial school.  Running a school is very expensive, and charging for tests is a good way to defray the costs, without having the monthly tuition be sky-high.  Also, tests generally mean extra work for the teacher(s) and there are costs like certificates, new belts, boards to break, etc.  So unlike some people, I have _no_ problem with a school charging a testing fee.

The issue I have with what you're describing is that testing is mandatory, and it sounds like people are getting passed who don't know the moves.  Not everybody is going to be ready every 2 months (let alone 6 weeks; that's pretty fast).  Some people will take 3 or 4 or 5 months to be ready, because they have a hard time with certain material, or they miss some classes, or whatever.  Now, sometimes people _are_ ready and are just being hard on themselves or lazy or something, and need to be told "you're going to test this time".  But then, other times, someone will want to test and aren't ready, and need to be told to wait.  If they're having everyone test and pass every time, that's about money.


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## WaterGal (Jul 6, 2015)

Oh, and as far as the sparring gear goes, what are you getting for $350?  I mean, there's a big range out there in terms of what's available.  If it's $350 for a complete WTF-approved Adidas set (edit: or Kwon, which is also a good WTF-approved brand) with a gear bag, and they size it for you and all that, I think that's a reasonable price.  But if you're paying $350 for an off-brand hogu, helmet and some cloth arm and shin pads, that's a high price.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 6, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> The mandatory testing would be a red flag for me.
> 
> Some background - my fiancé and I have a commercial school.  Running a school is very expensive, and charging for tests is a good way to defray the costs, without having the monthly tuition be sky-high.  Also, tests generally mean extra work for the teacher(s) and there are costs like certificates, new belts, boards to break, etc.  So unlike some people, I have _no_ problem with a school charging a testing fee.
> 
> The issue I have with what you're describing is that testing is mandatory, and it sounds like people are getting passed who don't know the moves.  Not everybody is going to be ready every 2 months (let alone 6 weeks; that's pretty fast).  Some people will take 3 or 4 or 5 months to be ready, because they have a hard time with certain material, or they miss some classes, or whatever.  Now, sometimes people _are_ ready and are just being hard on themselves or lazy or something, and need to be told "you're going to test this time".  But then, other times, someone will want to test and aren't ready, and need to be told to wait.  If they're having everyone test and pass every time, that's about money.



you took the words right out of my mouth. i just posted a thread asking people if they know a quality dojang in Northside Atlanta... specifically Alpharetta area. that's cool that you have your own school... but yeah mandatory testing stresses me out, and one of the cardinal reasons i take TKD is for relaxation... after practicing really hard for an hour at TKD, endorphins kick in and make me feel happy and relaxed. but yeah i have a anxiety disorder, and i have to do everything in my power to stay as calm as possible so things don't get out of hand, i mean i have a pretty severe problem, it's even made me suicidal before. so them putting pressure on me to take a test at this date is something that isn't good for me. you mentioned that operating a school costs money, i am happy to pay them money! if they need more money no problem! just like what you said, about being pressured and if i skip out on testing day i run the risk of pissing off Grandmaster Chung, who has something of a temper, another thing people on this website told me is unacceptable at a TKD school. the instructors can KICK, but a lot of the student blackbelts don't even have such great kicks... that tells you something right there!


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 6, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Oh, and as far as the sparring gear goes, what are you getting for $350?  I mean, there's a big range out there in terms of what's available.  If it's $350 for a complete WTF-approved Adidas set with a gear bag, and they size it for you and all that, I think that's a reasonable price.  But if you're paying $350 for an off-brand hogu, helmet and some cloth arm and shin pads, that's a high price.



helmet, chest guard basically, unless i am forgetting something. i found it online for 140$


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## WaterGal (Jul 6, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> helmet, chest guard basically, unless i am forgetting something. i found it online for 140$



You can definitely get everything you need to get started with Olympic-style sparring for a price like that.  Some brands are more expensive/high-end than others, which is more what I was asking about. $140 and $350 can both be reasonable prices, depending on the brand and the amount of gear it is.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 6, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> You can definitely get everything you need to get started with Olympic-style sparring for a price like that.  Some brands are more expensive/high-end than others, which is more what I was asking about. $140 and $350 can both be reasonable prices, depending on the brand and the amount of gear it is.



what do you think about the fact that we are required to buy our gear from the school? i mean i guess that could be understandable... usually when people spar in my school it is like, one person kicks, then the other person kicks, so you take turns kicking each other, usually with a specific kick, once in a blue moon we are allowed to do actual sparring, usually towards the end of class, by which time my arms and legs are tired which makes it harder to kick properly


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 6, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> actually... after what everyone told me about my school... i am thinking pretty seriously about changing schools. I was looking for a TKD school taught at a YMCA near where i live actually because of you actually... haven't found one yet. and though i love TKD, i am open to the possibility of changing to a different martial art. There is an MMA place near where I live... but yeah from the grappling i have done i didn't like it much, although to be a balanced fighter i feel like i need to learn some, but i prefer striking, its more fun to me, just my personal preference. maybe i haven't given grappling enough of a chance



I think I bashed my current school to an extent that is unfair. as far as Grandmaster Chung being temperamental, i think he just comes across that way because the man is tough as nails. tonight he made a teenager do 100 pushups because he wasn't punching properly.  and if they charge me for various things, well they can't keep the school running for free. the one thing i can't get used to is mandatory belt testing, but i can figure out ways to deal with that. All of my instructors are AMAZING TKD artists ( i've seen them in action) and i've been told that in Korea the dojangs are WAY tougher, stricter, and more militant than the dojangs here... so that explains Grandmaster Chung's toughness, that and the fact that he taught martial arts in the military (not US military but other countries not sure which ones) but yeah it isn't a perfect school but it is a great school, the main reason i bashed it was because i was mad at Grandmaster for snapping at me for not holding my nunchucks properly. but i'm over it, went tonight, had a great time, almost puked twice lol but yeah... it has its problems but its as legit as any other TKD place in Atlanta that I am aware of


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## IcemanSK (Jul 6, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I think I bashed my current school to an extent that is unfair. as far as Grandmaster Chung being temperamental, i think he just comes across that way because the man is tough as nails. tonight he made a teenager do 100 pushups because he wasn't punching properly.  and if they charge me for various things, well they can't keep the school running for free. the one thing i can't get used to is mandatory belt testing, but i can figure out ways to deal with that. All of my instructors are AMAZING TKD artists ( i've seen them in action) and i've been told that in Korea the dojangs are WAY tougher, stricter, and more militant than the dojangs here... so that explains Grandmaster Chung's toughness, that and the fact that he taught martial arts in the military (not US military but other countries not sure which ones) but yeah it isn't a perfect school but it is a great school, the main reason i bashed it was because i was mad at Grandmaster for snapping at me for not holding my nunchucks properly. but i'm over it, went tonight, had a great time, almost puked twice lol but yeah... it has its problems but its as legit as any other TKD place in Atlanta that I am aware of



If you hold out to find the perfect school, you'll never find it. But I'm sure you know that already. It sounds as though a few days time & another class helped you gain a new appreciation for your GM & your dojang. Every master is different. Every night in the dojang is unique as well. We take off our shoes at the door as a symbol of leaving the day behind (and outside) and focusing on training. Most days we can all do that, and have a great class. Some days, students (and even masters & GMs) can't seem to leave our troubles at the door & it shows on the mat. Just keep showing up with your folded dobok under your arm and participate as fully as you can each class.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

IcemanSK said:


> If you hold out to find the perfect school, you'll never find it. But I'm sure you know that already. It sounds as though a few days time & another class helped you gain a new appreciation for your GM & your dojang. Every master is different. Every night in the dojang is unique as well. We take off our shoes at the door as a symbol of leaving the day behind (and outside) and focusing on training. Most days we can all do that, and have a great class. Some days, students (and even masters & GMs) can't seem to leave our troubles at the door & it shows on the mat. Just keep showing up with your folded dobok under your arm and participate as fully as you can each class.



very true. another things i think is as important or maybe even a little more important than the quality of your dojo/dojang whatever is how hard you train. At my school training hard while in class is not an option, but how hard i train at home is. i'm not gonna lie sometimes i get lazy and get neglectful of my at home training. to me it all revolves around motivation... the more motivated you are the harder you can push yourself, the hard part is pushing yourself when you are not feeling motivated, as we all know motivation is a thing that comes and goes. but yeah i think a great way to supplement martial arts is working out at the gym/ lifting weights... cause the stronger you are, the harder you can strike! i imagine the same is true for grappling, though i have minimal grappling experience.  there is something kind of magical to me about training at my dojang... all my cares and sorrows just evaporate when i start training... and after the hour has gone by I am feeling at east, relaxed, happy, and care free... martial arts has been highly therapeutic for me.


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## WaterGal (Jul 7, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> what do you think about the fact that we are required to buy our gear from the school? i mean i guess that could be understandable... usually when people spar in my school it is like, one person kicks, then the other person kicks, so you take turns kicking each other, usually with a specific kick, once in a blue moon we are allowed to do actual sparring, usually towards the end of class, by which time my arms and legs are tired which makes it harder to kick properly



I think they're seriously overcharging you and then forcing you to buy it from them so that you'll have to get it anyway.  Seems a little shady, but I'm less concerned about that kind of thing than I am about the quality of the instruction and the standards.  

To me, a good TKD sparring class includes at least 6 2-minute rounds of Olympic-style sparring.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> I think they're seriously overcharging you and then forcing you to buy it from them so that you'll have to get it anyway.



That depends in large part on the average cost in that area. It's unreasonable to say "I can cover the bills here by charging $XXX so that's all anybody should charge." The rent at site A might be half of site B, especially if site A is in a smallish midwestern town with lots of vacancies, and B is in the heart of a large city where space is at a premium.

As I said, I am philosophically opposed to things like longterm contracts, mandatory testing, repeat testing fees and mandatory gear purchases. But I understand the difference between a commercial and non-commercial school, and these opinions are a part of why I choose to attend and teach at a non-commercial school.



WaterGal said:


> To me, a good TKD sparring class includes at least 6 2-minute rounds of Olympic-style sparring.



Only if you're training for Olympic-style tournaments. If you're training for self defense or any other style of tournament, then your plan would be a rotten sparring class.


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## WaterGal (Jul 7, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> That depends in large part on the average cost in that area. It's unreasonable to say "I can cover the bills here by charging $XXX so that's all anybody should charge." The rent at site A might be half of site B, especially if site A is in a smallish midwestern town with lots of vacancies, and B is in the heart of a large city where space is at a premium.



I was referring to his school charging $350 for what he implied to be a very basic non-WTF-approved WTF-style sparring gear set.  My fiance and I run a commercial school in the middle-class suburbs of a major US city, and charge about half that for a set like that and still make some money from it (we also have a nicer set at a higher price point).  We don't require students to buy it from us, but they almost all do, because it's a reasonable price.  Edit: it's one thing for tuition or other costs to be higher or lower based on local cost-of-living, but I think gear is another matter because it's a physical product with a set cost.  But as I said, I'm less concerned about than about the standards and quality of instruction.



> Only if you're training for Olympic-style tournaments. If you're training for self defense or any other style of tournament, then your plan would be a rotten sparring class.



That's true. I did assume based on some stuff he'd posted earlier about his school being KKW-affliliated etc that he was talking about Olympic-style sparring.  If he's not, that's another matter.  But regardless of what style of sparring you do, I think you need to practice it regularly, and for a decent chunk of time, if you want to be proficient.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> but I'm less concerned about that kind of thing than I am about the quality of the instruction and the standards.



well the quality of the instruction is great, my Grandmaster is 9th degree black belt, and they work us, and they work us hard. i usually have to take breaks to avoid passing out... like literally sometimes they train me so hard i start feeling like i'm about to lose consciousness


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> I was referring to his school charging $350 for what he implied to be a very basic non-WTF-approved WTF-style sparring gear set



actually i'm not sure about the quality of the gear, i still haven't bought my gear yet and i've been at this school for half a year... just hesitant to blow that kind of money, i'm not rich


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> But I understand the difference between a commercial and non-commercial school, and these opinions are a part of why I choose to attend and teach at a non-commercial school.



yes, a non commercial school is most definitely more cost affective... but i searched hard for one in my area and couldn't find one... and despite the fact that some things at my school seem overpriced i respect Grandmaster Chung as an honorable man and i don't think he's trying to screw his students... just really does need the money to keep the school running... and of course make a profit so he can feed himself and his family


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Only if you're training for Olympic-style tournaments. If you're training for self defense or any other style of tournament, then your plan would be a rotten sparring class.



my school actually trains for both sport TKD and self defense TKD. i'm actually not clear on the difference between Olympic style sparring and regular sparring, but when we do spar it is based on the basic rules such as no punching the face, and no kneeing. however, often when we are training, we do head punches, knees, grappling, among other things for self defense. people say that Taekwondo is mostly kicks, but we do plenty of punching


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> and regular sparring



what i mean by regular sparring is regular sport sparring... what is the difference  between the way people fight in the Olympics vs a regular sports competition


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> my school actually trains for both sport TKD and self defense TKD. i'm actually not clear on the difference between Olympic style sparring and regular sparring, but when we do spar it is based on the basic rules such as no punching the face, and no kneeing. however, often when we are training, we do head punches, knees, grappling, among other things for self defense. people say that Taekwondo is mostly kicks, but we do plenty of punching



There is no such thing as "regular sparring" really. Sparring is done under countless different rule sets. The Olympic rule set is one of many, as well as being one of the most restrictive. Tournament rules depend entirely on the sponsoring organization, and while most are less restrictive than the WTF rules, they do still tend to be pretty restrictive, in the interests of minimizing the risk of serious injury.


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## WaterGal (Jul 7, 2015)

When we say "Olympic-style" sparring, what we mean is the World Taekwondo Federation style, like you see in the Olympics. 

Basic rules are: kicks and punches to the chest protector, kicks to the head (at age 12+), no knees, elbows, pushing, or grabbing.  It's continuous sparring, meaning you don't stop when someone score a point. Sparring gear for this style consists of a chest protector, helmet, cup, arm pads, shin pads, instep/foot protector (in less expensive non-WTF-approved gear sets, this will usually be part of a sleeve-like cloth shinguard), mouthguard and light gloves.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> When we say "Olympic-style" sparring, what we mean is the World Taekwondo Federation style, like you see in the Olympics.
> 
> Basic rules are: kicks and punches to the chest protector, kicks to the head (at age 12+), no knees, elbows, pushing, or grabbing.  It's continuous sparring, meaning you don't stop when someone score a point. Sparring gear for this style consists of a chest protector, helmet, cup, arm pads, shin pads, instep/foot protector (in less expensive non-WTF-approved gear sets, this will usually be part of a sleeve-like cloth shinguard), mouthguard and light gloves.



cool, thanks. the Olympic matches I saw the fighters were extremely cautious, they didn't just rush in and start kicking... they spent the first couple minutes sizing each other up. i saw a great one kick knockout in one of the Olympic matches i watched. at one point i was entertaining the possibility of training to be an Olympic TKD contender in a few years but when i told one of my instructors he said it is possible (cause he's a positive sort of dude) but would require a LOT of intense training (like 6 hours a day at least) to even stand a chance against Olympic Taekwondo competitors


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> When we say "Olympic-style" sparring, what we mean is the World Taekwondo Federation style, like you see in the Olympics.
> 
> Basic rules are: kicks and punches to the chest protector, kicks to the head (at age 12+), no knees, elbows, pushing, or grabbing. * It's continuous sparring, meaning you don't stop when someone score a point.* Sparring gear for this style consists of a chest protector, helmet, cup, arm pads, shin pads, instep/foot protector (in less expensive non-WTF-approved gear sets, this will usually be part of a sleeve-like cloth shinguard), mouthguard and light gloves.



Let's be honest. The highlighted portion is simply not true. I've been to a number of high level TKD events. I do live an hour from the Olympic training center, after all.
At the highest levels, every... single... point... is disputed, which means that it is most certainly not continuous sparring. The fighters don't even pretend it is. If they score (or allegedly score) they start prancing around, because they know the other side will already be stopping the fight to dispute the point.
You do see continuous sparring at local events. But not at the highest levels.
In my opinion, that's one of the problems with TKD sparring as it is done at the Olympics.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Let's be honest. The highlighted portion is simply not true. I've been to a number of high level TKD events. I do live an hour from the Olympic training center, after all.
> At the highest levels, every... single... point... is disputed, which means that it is most certainly not continuous sparring. The fighters don't even pretend it is. If they score (or allegedly score) they start prancing around, because they know the other side will already be stopping the fight to dispute the point.
> You do see continuous sparring at local events. But not at the highest levels.
> In my opinion, that's one of the problems with TKD sparring as it is done at the Olympics.




am i right in saying that basically all TKD competitions, Olympic or otherwise, are based on points?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> am i right in saying that basically all TKD competitions, Olympic or otherwise, are based on points?



That's true of pretty much every martial arts competition of any style. I'd venture to say "all", but I'm generally reluctant to use absolutes. 
The important part is "what counts as a point". In WTF sparring, it's kicks to the body or head. Punches to the body, but it has, historically, been very difficult to get punches to score. No punches to the head, at all. No low kicks, no kicks to the back. No sweeps. No takedowns. No locks. No throws. No elbows. No knees.

The rules do give a bonus point for knockdowns. One of the things that could be done to improve the rules would be to award this for "falling" as well, because intentional falls are one of the more common ways to avoid being scored on. 
And you do win if you knock out your opponent, but that doesn't happen all that often.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 7, 2015)

thanks for the info, i'm still learning all of this. 



Dirty Dog said:


> And you do win if you knock out your opponent, but that doesn't happen all that often.



i hate to disagree with you but i've seen a whole bunch of TKD knockouts on various videos, i'll post one here as an example, i posted it once before on this site but i'm gonna post it again:


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> i hate to disagree with you but i've seen a whole bunch of TKD knockouts on various videos, i'll post one here as an example, i posted it once before on this site but i'm gonna post it again:



Not too shockingly, those videos show the exceptions, not the rules. Care to venture a guess as to what percentage of bouts are won by knockout?

I was at the 2012 Olympic trials. No knockouts. I watched most of the Olympic matches. No knockouts that I can recall. 
As I said. You do win if you knock out your opponent. But that does not happen all that often.

And of course, an awful lot of the shots in that video are knockdowns. Not knockouts.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not too shockingly, those videos show the exceptions, not the rules. Care to venture a guess as to what percentage of bouts are won by knockout?
> 
> I was at the 2012 Olympic trials. No knockouts. I watched most of the Olympic matches. No knockouts that I can recall.
> As I said. You do win if you knock out your opponent. But that does not happen all that often.
> ...



well so much for my dreams of being the "one kick knockout man" 

i used to think it was fairly common in TKD for someone to get knocked out by a potent kick to the head... i have no idea what percentage of bouts are won by knockout... but even if it isn't a huge percentage there are definitely one kick knockouts out there, some of the shots in that video were knockdowns, but some of them i could see the person lose consciousness and just fall over from a standing position. so it may not be as common as i thought, but it is definitely out there. the first Olympic match i ever watched was a one kick knockout... i know it was a knockout because it showed them trying to bring the man back to consciousness.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 8, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> well so much for my dreams of being the "one kick knockout man"
> 
> i used to think it was fairly common in TKD for someone to get knocked out by a potent kick to the head... i have no idea what percentage of bouts are won by knockout... but even if it isn't a huge percentage there are definitely one kick knockouts out there, some of the shots in that video were knockdowns, but some of them i could see the person lose consciousness and just fall over from a standing position. so it may not be as common as i thought, but it is definitely out there. the first Olympic match i ever watched was a one kick knockout... i know it was a knockout because it showed them trying to bring the man back to consciousness.



it's funny how many misconceptions that i had about TKD and martial arts in general have been corrected by my discussions on this website. i was bummed out to find that headgear doesn't make it harder to knock someone out with a kick, and now i realize that knockouts are a fraction as common as i thought they were anyway... i'm always posting all these knockout videos but i guess they are bogus. *sighs* oh well, i still love TKD


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 8, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> it's funny how many misconceptions that i had about TKD and martial arts in general have been corrected by my discussions on this website. i was bummed out to find that headgear doesn't make it harder to knock someone out with a kick, and now i realize that knockouts are a fraction as common as i thought they were anyway... i'm always posting all these knockout videos but i guess they are bogus. *sighs* oh well, i still love TKD



They are not bogus, they just don't something that's at all common. If there are (completely random number) 100,000 TKD bouts, and 8 of them end in knockouts, that is a tiny tiny portion. But that's the portion that will get the most attention.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 8, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> They are not bogus, they just don't something that's at all common. If there are (completely random number) 100,000 TKD bouts, and 8 of them end in knockouts, that is a tiny tiny portion. But that's the portion that will get the most attention.



the thing is that video i showed you had like dozens of knockouts, i know some of them were just knockdowns, but i have seen other videos about TKD knockouts also, interestingly last week we had a debate the exact reverse of this one! (The one about TKD kicks in UFC)


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## WaterGal (Jul 13, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The rules do give a bonus point for knockdowns. One of the things that could be done to improve the rules would be to award this for "falling" as well, because intentional falls are one of the more common ways to avoid being scored on..



You mean, having falling be a whole point deduction instead of kyungo?  I could see that.


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## WaterGal (Jul 13, 2015)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> it's funny how many misconceptions that i had about TKD and martial arts in general have been corrected by my discussions on this website. i was bummed out to find that headgear doesn't make it harder to knock someone out with a kick, and now i realize that knockouts are a fraction as common as i thought they were anyway... i'm always posting all these knockout videos but i guess they are bogus. *sighs* oh well, i still love TKD



If you think about it, it makes sense that there aren't many knockouts.  Getting knocked out  is really bad for you.  In sports like boxing or football, you can make a lot of money and be famous, so it might be worth it to risk a traumatic brain injury like that.   But TKD competitors don't get paid (I think the national team might get some corporate sponsorships?), and generally have a day job or are students.  They can't afford to get a concussion every month.


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## sinthetik_mistik (Jul 13, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> If you think about it, it makes sense that there aren't many knockouts.  Getting knocked out  is really bad for you.  In sports like boxing or football, you can make a lot of money and be famous, so it might be worth it to risk a traumatic brain injury like that.   But TKD competitors don't get paid (I think the national team might get some corporate sponsorships?), and generally have a day job or are students.  They can't afford to get a concussion every month.



well from that perspective i guess it's good that there are not a lot of knockouts.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 13, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> You mean, having falling be a whole point deduction instead of kyungo?  I could see that.



Yes. A penalty for falling is like scoring with a punch. A lovely theory, but in practice... not so much. Referring again to my visits to the Olympic trials, I can say that people drop like flies. I can't recall any penalties being issued. Treat a fall and a knockdown as being the same thing. 
Keep in mind that my opinions are colored by the fact that I don't really care about sport as sport. I see the sport as being training for a real fight (with rules imposed for safety).


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## WaterGal (Jul 13, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yes. A penalty for falling is like scoring with a punch. A lovely theory, but in practice... not so much. Referring again to my visits to the Olympic trials, I can say that people drop like flies. I can't recall any penalties being issued. Treat a fall and a knockdown as being the same thing.
> Keep in mind that my opinions are colored by the fact that I don't really care about sport as sport. I see the sport as being training for a real fight (with rules imposed for safety).



Hmm, ok.  I've only been to local tournaments, and they do issue kyungo for falling.  If they're not doing that at nationals, that's too bad and kind of weird.  Though, even with it being a half-point, if you have a choice between taking a three-point hit and losing half a point...


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 14, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Hmm, ok.  I've only been to local tournaments, and they do issue kyungo for falling.  If they're not doing that at nationals, that's too bad and kind of weird.  Though, even with it being a half-point, if you have a choice between taking a three-point hit and losing half a point...



Annndddd... there's the difference in mindset. I don't care about points. I care about survival. I will happily give up a "point" if it allows me to set up a counter that may well score less points, but do more for survival.


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## WaterGal (Jul 14, 2015)

Yeah, that's fair. I think maybe that's something intrinsic to any sport fighting/combat sports, though. High-level competitors are going to focus on strategies that allow them to score the maximum number of points and keep their competitors from scoring.  Regular people are usually training to learn to defend themselves, or lose weight or whatever other reasons they have, so how they spar is going to be more based on those goals, but people who are trying to win tournaments are going to have more of a focus on the details of the rules and these kind of point-getting strategies that can stray pretty far from actual self-defense.


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, that's fair. I think maybe that's something intrinsic to any sport fighting/combat sports, though. High-level competitors are going to focus on strategies that allow them to score the maximum number of points and keep their competitors from scoring.  Regular people are usually training to learn to defend themselves, or lose weight or whatever other reasons they have, so how they spar is going to be more based on those goals, but people who are trying to win tournaments are going to have more of a focus on the details of the rules and these kind of point-getting strategies that can stray pretty far from actual self-defense.


There's a middle ground.  I think people can move into and out of a sport mentality pretty easily, if they train both.  I've heard Tony and others say as much, and I believe them.  For example, in MMA, I remember many years ago on an episode of TUF, one of the coaches (I want to say Rich Franklin) suggested to a guy that he just reach down and touch the mat to protect himself from knees to the head.  The reaction on the show was that this was a lame, cop out idea.  But now, we see it all the time in UFC matches.  But, I just have a hard time believing that a professional MMA fighter, if in a street fight, would reach down to touch the ground in order to protect himself from knees to the head.


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