# How Do You Train?



## MJS (Feb 8, 2007)

In another thread, which was discussing MMA, I noticed some members stating that MMA is effective outside of the ring as well as in the ring. Now, I'm not doubting that it is effective, so I just want to put that out before I continue. 

My question is: For those that train MMA or add in MMA ideas to your training, how exactly do you train? I'm looking for specifics here. I want as much detail as possible. If you say that it is effective and someone else says it isnt effective outside the ring, make your case. Do you train weapons? Do you train mult. attackers? These are the types of things I'm looking for folks. 

Again, MMA has produced some damn tough people, so I'm not doubting that. I want to hear how you personally gear your training. I'm not interested in hearing what Frank Shamrock does or Bas Rutten. Also, not too long ago, I started a thread, asking who you train under. Seeing that we have alot of MMA people here, I thought it would be cool to share who you've trained under. I was surprised to see that many of the advocates of MMA never posted. Personally, I don't see what the big secret is. I mean, if you train in any art, I'd think you'd be proud of it. And some will say that talking about that is not important. Well, actually it is. I mean, with all this talk about showing proof of certain things, it would help to know what the background of someone is, if they're making statements.

This thread is not intended to turn into a big flame fest. Its not intended to say my art is better than your art. Its a friendly thread, to share and help people who think that MMA is no good outside the ring, to grasp a better understanding of it.

So...lets hear it folks! :ultracool


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## Andrew Green (Feb 8, 2007)

A little copy and pasting off my site....

=============

First thing to realise is that everything cycles, sometimes not all the steps are there, sometimes the middle ones shuffle around a little, different times are spent on different steps during different cycles etc. Maybe you'll need to cycle 1 and 2 a few times before being ready to go to 5. After 5 you're going end up back at 1, it is a cycle.

1 - First thing you have to do is learn the technique. Let's say we want to slip a jab and counter punch. We do it a few times, picking up the speed as we go, getting use to doing the technique. No resistance, just the technique, sort of like the step sparring of Traditional martial arts. Everyone looks pretty much the same doing it.

2 - Now we got to add a little timing and move with it a little. So our partner is going to try and land that jab, we are going to start moving around like we where sparring and do our best to slip it without getting hit. Here some differences between people start coming out, but for the most part everyone still looks pretty similar.

3 - Now maybe we add some variety, He's throwing the jab, but we got some options, we can slip, catch, cover, duck, parry and then counter punch. This is where different people start looking different. Different techniques and strategies will work for different people, and this will begin to show up in this stage.

4 - Keeping the same theme lets now allow both people to initiate, so either of us can initiate the jab, the other has to defend and counter punch. After initiating trying to avoid the counter of course (Should be doing this right from the beginning). So now even more differences show in drilling. Everyone is doing the same drill, but everyone is doing different things.

5 - Put it into sparring. Start throwing combinations, any punches you like. Now everyone should really look different. It is at this stage that "styles" get created.

The other thing to keep in mind is Speed. Drills do not always need to be done at full speed. While that is good and necessary, alone it is not as good as combined with slow sparring. Try sparring with both of you fighting each other as if you where fighting a 7 year old. No strength, nice and slow, keep an eye on proper technique.

If we are grappling and my partner does a sweep right, I let them do it, not fight it. They do the same. While this is not "real" sparring it is a great fir cleaning up technique. If he is trying it and it is not quiet right I don't go, instead I point out what is wrong. This game has no room for ego though, because as soon as winning and losing come into it, The point of it is lost. Same for stand up, punch slow, just work on clean technique, good set ups, and keeping good posture. Doesn't matter who get hit the most, just learn. After all you're hits should be more like touches doing this anyways.

This is defiantly not a replacement to sparring hard, but is a supplement, and part of another cycle that exists within each of those steps. Do it slow to clean it up and focus on strategy, then put it to use at full speed, slow back down and clean it up a little more, then pick it up again.

One of the biggest problems in martial arts today, is that the cycle is not done. Schools teach Step sparring (step 1) and after doing that for a long time Free sparring (Step 5) is supposed to be there. But nothing is done in the middle. Footwork is mostly absent, as are timing and set ups.

Now my definition of what MMA is, is that. Right there. That progression, for ALL ranges and all skills. Integrating them into one system. Styles aren't defined by techniques or patterns, they are defined by training methods.

Techniques come from training methods and rules

Does a spinning heel hook kick work? Sure it does, under some rules. Not under others. Eliminate the stylistic rules and apply that series and the techniques that will work are the ones that get used in MMA.

Does a spinning heel hook work without stylistic rules? Experience says no, you'll likely end up on the ground if you try it.

==========

Now as for things like weapons and multiple attackers, the process stays the same.  You start by picking out a few related techniques, get the idea, then slowly expand them into the full set of options.

Do we do it?  Yes, occasionally.  Does everyone?  No, everyone has different interests.

The basic premise though is always the same, everything needs to be done in as close to the situation it is meant for as possible.  That means if you are learning to fight, you fight.  Apply whatever safety equipment you need and rules that you need, both of which can vary to allow just about anything you can think of, although perhaps not all at once.  And fight.  Hit hard, not trying to KO each other in sparring, but you stil need to land things, some guys that only do no contact have a hard time at first getting used to actually hitting a moving target, they pull strikes even when they don't want to.

How safe you make it and how far you take it are entirely up to you.  Anyone can train this way, but not everyone will take it as far.  Our kids are obviously not going to be fighting full out in a cage with only MMA gloves, most people won't.  But you learn from the experiences of those that take it farther.  If you don't want to go 100% on contact, don't.  But when the guys that do tell you hitting this target does this, you have to put a little faith in them as they actually do it.

Other things are kind of common sense, when you apply a lock, you feel it start to tear, you know you could apply it a lot harder, and you know the other guy can't do anything about it at that point, because if he could, he would.  So you can assume that folding someones arm in half the wrong way will have a less then pleasant effect.  You also have a lot of people that have had it extended a little to far, and at some point you probably will to.  So you know a minor hyperextnesion is painful, a much more severe one is going to be worse.

The other advantage I find to going hard in sparring is that when a even harder one does hit you, it's not as much of a shock.  When people start getting hit for the first time they turn away, flinch, break position, etc.  Which usually ends up in a harder hit, or rather hits.  If your training is the same, that when you get hit the other guy keeps coming you are much more likely to develop a reaction to cover up / clinch / counter as oppose to turn and back away.

Same for weapons, we where protection, pad the sticks a little, they still hurt, but they aren't going to put us on the floor, just a few bruises.  Realistic?  No, but without serious injury it's the best we are going to do.  They do hurt enough that letting someone land a power shot is going to be regretted, just not injure you.

Rules are definitely important, but anyone that trains MMA does not use only one set in all of there sparring.  At a minimum everyone does boxing, kickboxing, wrestling and Submission work.  We also do subsets within those.  And we even include things that are not allowed in any competition format from time to time.  How much is entirely dependent on who is running the class.  Bas Rutten for example (I know, using a pro...) seems like he would cover a fair bit based on his tapes.  He has that entire streetfighting tape which is almost all fouls under competition rules.

But at lower levels it is the same, some of us do, some of us don't.  I imagine just about everyone does cover things not allowed, but the extent too which they do will differ quite a bit.  

No different then TKD, which has a competition format, and rules.  But from school to school you will see differing amounts of things not allowed by TKD rules being covered in training.


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## The Kidd (Feb 8, 2007)

I got my foundation in TKD and I still teach that but now I am branching out into BJJ and Aikido trying to become more well rounded and be able to encorporate everything.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2007)

I'll apologise now, my reply is going to be one of those well we train for MMA over here ones! 
Firstly we train in MMA, no weapons, no self defence. We train to fight in MMA bouts. Some of us also train in TMA, some in weapons but not in the same class.Some of us do self defence classes. I know of no MMA club that trains weapons in a MMA class, I don't know why you would. We train to fight one person, that's all we'll be matched up with in a bout.
In a training sessions we do pad work, ground drills, sparring standing and on the floor. We learn new techniques from BJJ, JJ, Muay Thai, boxing etc.whatever has stuff that's useful. We will train at other clubs so we always have different people to train with.
In the MMA class we do not cover things that aren't allowed, why would we? The people who train in the club and are interested in self defence tend not to rely on MMA but then they are doormen, close protection officers etc so have their own way of defending themselves. They share this in the self defence classes where we learn things that work.Most MMA people I know don't go around boasting they can defend themselves anywhere against everything.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 8, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Most MMA people I know don't go around boasting they can defend themselves anywhere against everything.





Very true, we train for fun, nothing special.  But I disagree about the "why would we?"  Stick fighting and fighting 2 guys is a lot of fun


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## Shotgun Buddha (Feb 9, 2007)

Well, general break down of the class structure.

First hour or so of the class is fitness and conditioning. This more often than that not takes the form of The Bas Rutten MMA workout or similar exercises.
Basically its like 30-45 minutes of circuit training, switching between bodyweight exercises, shadowboxing, sprawling etc every minute or so.
After that we'll usually do conditioning and technique training for about another 30-45 minutes.
The conditioning, since our striking style is fairly heavily based on Kyokushin Karate, hurts. Exercises like taking and recieving body punches, shin kicks to the thigh etc
Did I mention the pain?

Then we'll do some technique work. This follows a similar enough pattern to what Andrew was saying.
Start off with an isolated technique, and then add in a few variables. So if we're training a throw for example, start off from clinch, partner will be compliant till you get the technique, the switch roles. Once both parties know the technique, up the resistance.
Once they're used to resistance, and have the basic technique for two or three moves, then do a drill where they semi-spar, trying to use them against each other.
After that, rest of the class will be sparring. Depending on the focus of the class, and level of the people involved, it could be either grappling, striking or MMA based sparring.

Self-defence stuff is generally by request. Occasionally self-defence application will be covered, but the focus tends towards the sport aspect of it.
My instructor is Shane Thomas, and our club name is Kokoro MMA, we link back to the Kyokushin Budokai in Holland.

This is us.
www.mmaireland.com

To be honest, self-defence stuff I do, I do outside of the MMA class. I use the delivery systems from it as a base however. Got a very long way to go though.


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## Tez3 (Feb 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Very true, we train for fun, nothing special. But I disagree about the "why would we?" Stick fighting and fighting 2 guys is a lot of fun


 
Ah we do that outside the MMA class though which is fun I agree! We use circuit training but I'll use Bas Rutten when I'm training on my own.I love when he says lunges and it comes out sounding like lunches. Our training is very much like Shotgun Buddhas. I think that's the routine most clubs use here.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Feb 9, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Ah we do that outside the MMA class though which is fun I agree! We use circuit training but I'll use Bas Rutten when I'm training on my own.I love when he says lunges and it comes out sounding like lunches. Our training is very much like Shotgun Buddhas. I think that's the routine most clubs use here.


 
Think its the way most clubs here train too, figure its the norm in Europe. 
Wonder what the American way is like.


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## Tez3 (Feb 9, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Think its the way most clubs here train too, figure its the norm in Europe.
> Wonder what the American way is like.


 
Complicated and over intellectulised? LOL! Sorry guys! it's just some of the threads on MMA are written as if it were a university thesis! MMA is not easy to do but it's very uncomplicated really.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Feb 9, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Complicated and over intellectulised? LOL! Sorry guys! it's just some of the threads on MMA are written as if it were a university thesis! MMA is not easy to do but it's very uncomplicated really.


 
HULK SMASH!!!


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## Tez3 (Feb 9, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> HULK SMASH!!!


 
You've met Ian Freeman then lol!


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## Infinite (Feb 9, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Complicated and over intellectulised? LOL! Sorry guys! it's just some of the threads on MMA are written as if it were a university thesis! MMA is not easy to do but it's very uncomplicated really.



I refer to the concept of fighting science...

A smart fighter is a winning fighter 

--Infy


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## MJS (Feb 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> A little copy and pasting off my site....
> 
> =============
> 
> ...


 
Andrew, thanks for the detailed reply.  Alot to read.   Now I notice that you mention that you do train with weapons and mult. attacks.  How much time do you or your students spend on those areas?  Is this something that is worked on during the MMA class, or is there a seperate class for this?

Mike


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## MJS (Feb 9, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I'll apologise now, my reply is going to be one of those well we train for MMA over here ones!
> Firstly we train in MMA, no weapons, no self defence. We train to fight in MMA bouts. Some of us also train in TMA, some in weapons but not in the same class.Some of us do self defence classes. I know of no MMA club that trains weapons in a MMA class, I don't know why you would. We train to fight one person, that's all we'll be matched up with in a bout.
> In a training sessions we do pad work, ground drills, sparring standing and on the floor. We learn new techniques from BJJ, JJ, Muay Thai, boxing etc.whatever has stuff that's useful. We will train at other clubs so we always have different people to train with.
> In the MMA class we do not cover things that aren't allowed, why would we? The people who train in the club and are interested in self defence tend not to rely on MMA but then they are doormen, close protection officers etc so have their own way of defending themselves. They share this in the self defence classes where we learn things that work.Most MMA people I know don't go around boasting they can defend themselves anywhere against everything.


 
Thank you for your reply also.   So, reading this, it seems that there is a mix of people with some doing different training than others.  Can you give more detail on the drills/techniques you incorporate when working weapon attacks and mult people?

Mike


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## MJS (Feb 9, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Well, general break down of the class structure.
> 
> First hour or so of the class is fitness and conditioning. This more often than that not takes the form of The Bas Rutten MMA workout or similar exercises.
> Basically its like 30-45 minutes of circuit training, switching between bodyweight exercises, shadowboxing, sprawling etc every minute or so.
> ...


 
Another great reply! Thanks!:ultracool   Sounds like the grappling/MMA program is pretty solid.  Can you expand a bit further on the training you do outside of what you listed above?

Mike


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## Tez3 (Feb 9, 2007)

Infinite said:


> I refer to the concept of fighting science...
> 
> A smart fighter is a winning fighter
> 
> --Infy


 
Practice is better than theory! We don't do the science bit, we train with the best ie Ian Freeman, Micheal Bisping, Leigh Remedious, Mark Weir, James Thompson etc etc.


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## MJS (Feb 9, 2007)

My base art is Kenpo.  I cross train in Arnis and BJJ.  I'm fortunate, because all of my instructors are open minded, and also x-train as well.  They see the value in the other things that are out there.   During my lessons, we drill the required material.  We'll work the tech. in the air, and then on someone, progressively adding more resistance and power.  Basically in the end, you either block or you're getting hit.  We also stress not standing stationary.  In other words, if we're working a right punch technique, its not uncommon for the other person to do something else at random.  Keeps it real and keeps us on our toes.   We'll also do mult. attacker drills and well as padded suit drills.  Focus mit and bag work is also worked on.

My Arnis inst. also includes some grappling in the class.  He doesn't focus strictly on Arnis, but also draws from some of the FMAs that he's studied.  There are times when we'll gear up, usually head protection and something to protect the hands and we'll stick spar.  This is usually done with padded sticks, but it still hurts like hell when you get hit.  I've received some nice 'battle wounds' during that class.  

During the grappling, we'll focus alot of position and transitioning from one position to the next.  Resistance is progressively added into this as well.  There are days we'll work from a specific position, working escapes, counters and subs.  Then there are days when we'll focus on a specific take down.  Of course, free rolling is also worked in.

edit- Forgot to add the following:

We also do alot of mit work and heavy bag work.  Combos are worked quite a bit, as well as proper executing of the punches, proper defense, etc.  We also spar and yes there is contact being made.   Wouldn't have it otherwise.   At times we'll work on specific things, such as rounds with just one person working offense, one just working defense, rounds of hands only, rounds of kicks only.  Also included is entering into the clinch range and adding in takedowns and grappling from there.

Mike


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## Infinite (Feb 9, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Practice is better than theory! We don't do the science bit, we train with the best ie Ian Freeman, Micheal Bisping, Leigh Remedious, Mark Weir, James Thompson etc etc.



This is wonderful practice makes perfect to be sure. However if you have no idea why you are practing the move you are only getting half the story.

If you don't know the principals behind your techniques you are not learning to adapt to new situations. You are limiting your options by not exploring what the purpose of the technique is for.

Is the eye jab for pain or is it for distraction? do you shoot every time the guy is off balance? Or is it better to close the gap and keep him off balance until he forces you to the mat?

Martial arts is about exploiting opportunity and if you do not know the concepts behind your moves you lose a lot more opportunities to exploit than you would otherwise.

Don't get me wrong if your just starting out just getting the moves takes all your attention but eventually if you never think about why you do these things you won't imrpove.

--Infy


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## Raiderbeast (Feb 9, 2007)

I use MMA training as a work tool for survival.  Working in a State Prison brings a different look on how I train.  At the end of the day it's all about me making it home to my family.  For me it's about the cardio to deal with long term fighting.  I don't want to get into a fight with an Inmate that outweighs me by 70lbs and be out of breath after a couple of minutes.  

  I do a lot of weight training for strength.  Then I work on cardio with running and sprints.  Bag work, boxing, kicking, and rolling around on the mat.


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## Tez3 (Feb 10, 2007)

Infinite said:


> This is wonderful practice makes perfect to be sure. However if you have no idea why you are practing the move you are only getting half the story.
> 
> If you don't know the principals behind your techniques you are not learning to adapt to new situations. You are limiting your options by not exploring what the purpose of the technique is for.
> 
> ...


 
I don't know why you think that _just training_ leaves out the whys and wherefores!  Do you imagine we just practice blindly? I've said before MMA is physical chess so of course we think about what we do! What I was getting at is the verbiose lectures and mind boggling theories that some seem prone to. In the UK for a long time we have had the Plain English campaign, it has succeeded in making official and retail businesses put their leaflets, instructions etc into plain understandable English. I showed a thread from the MMA section here to a friend who does MMA but who is also a lecturer at Manchester Uni and he said it wasn't understandable! The great majority of people who do MMA in this country are professional people but we don't pontificate very much, just fight!
 MMA is basically about fighting, we do it because we enjoy it. For most of us it's a hobby, we take it seriously yes but it's a hobby none the less. Of course we have pro fighters but the money available here mean very few can make a living at it.
Raiderbeast probably put his finger on one of the most important aspects of training if not *the *most important..fitness! You can do nothing if you run out of steam after a few seconds. You can have all the understanding of techniques in the world but unless you plain to bore your opponent into tapping out you need to be fit and be able to act instinctively you are bolloxed! I have a friend who is a prison officer at one of our most secure prisons who fights pro MMA.


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