# Anyone know this Guy?



## Earl Weiss (Mar 5, 2012)

http://www.officialblackdragonfightingsociety.com/Bio/Grand Master Len G. Kirschbaum.html


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## Instructor (Mar 5, 2012)

Nope.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 5, 2012)

I would be suspicious of anyone listed on that web page, but I have no proof of anything and make no accusations.  Just my own personal opinion.


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## puunui (Mar 5, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> http://www.officialblackdragonfightingsociety.com/Bio/Grand Master Len G. Kirschbaum.html



Never heard of him.


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## d1jinx (Mar 5, 2012)

not a clue


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## Gorilla (Mar 5, 2012)

Nope...long resume...one thing missing did not claim to have trained or trained with Bruce Lee...ODD!!!!


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2012)

All I can say is ********, what happen to Chuck Norris and Jackie Chan? This is a resume for the ages and I for one have never ever heard of him until today.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 5, 2012)

It appears he got a shotokan black belt in 2 years if Im reading it correctly.


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## WC_lun (Mar 5, 2012)

No clue.  I have no input on his skill, either as a martial artist or an instructor.  I will say it makes me very nervous when I see list like these.  They are very, very, hard for a person to live up to and look to be very similiar to resume padding.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I would be suspicious of anyone listed on that web page, but I have no proof of anything and make no accusations.  Just my own personal opinion.



You'll notice I am listed under that website as well. Then again, you SHOULD be suspicious of me. I am a sneaky bastard.

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## Haakon (Mar 6, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> It appears he got a shotokan black belt in 2 years if Im reading it correctly.



Hapkido black belt in 2 years too, and lists a tae kwon do black belt without listing when he started training TKD, and got 4th dan only 2 years after 2nd.

I don't know him, don't know anything about him other than this resume page...but it looks fishy to me. Maybe not impossible, but that's a heck of a lot for one man to accomplish.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 6, 2012)

Never heard of him, but like others, I'm somewhat skeptical of a resume like his. The reputation of that org doesn't do anything to make me more confident that he's legit. He may well be a fine practitioner, but like it not there is a certain degree of guilt by associate in things of this sort.


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

resume said:
			
		

> Commissioned a Kentucky Colonel By the Governor of Kentucky


Sensei Sharkey has one of these.  It is hung in the dojo in the pro-shop.  We usually have a nice chuckle about it as we bug him for the secret recipe.


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

Just curious Mst. Weiss...why are you asking about him?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> You'll notice I am listed under that website as well. Then again, you SHOULD be suspicious of me. I am a sneaky bastard.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk



With all due respect, there are quite a few names there I recognize, but have been led to believe are nothing but charlatans.  I personally would hesitate to be associated with such people, lest others think I was made of similar stuff.  Please understand I hold you in the highest regard when I say this and mean nothing personal by it.


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## elder999 (Mar 6, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> With all due respect, there are quite a few names there I recognize, but have been led to believe are nothing but charlatans. I personally would hesitate to be associated with such people, lest others think I was made of similar stuff. Please understand I hold you in the highest regard when I say this and mean nothing personal by it.



Hey-Josh was a karate student of Frank Dux-as such, his name belongs on that list.


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> You'll notice I am listed under that website as well. Then again, you SHOULD be suspicious of me. I am a sneaky bastard.


I bet you are not as sneaky as Ashida Kim who is listed there...He's a ninja and the baddest of them all.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 6, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Hey-Josh was a karate student of Frank Dux-as such, his name belongs on that list.



Funny you should say that.  I thought Frank Dux had been widely discredited as a fraudster.  Then I noticed on p9 of Taekwondo Times this month (March 2012 edition) that he's listed in the "Legends of the Martial Arts Hall of Fame Awards" advert as Hanshi.  Given his reputation, I don't know if I'd have put his name in the advert.

However, does anyone know if this bad reputation is deserved?


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## elder999 (Mar 6, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> However, does anyone know if this bad reputation is deserved?



Frank Dux and Ashida Kim are totally sweet, and live in the swampest of places!!


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## Instructor (Mar 6, 2012)

If Van Damme calles and offers to make a movie about you, the answer is no.


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## msmitht (Mar 6, 2012)

Don't know anyone on that site. You guys should check the videos on www.ninjasdoexist.com. local guy who went from a 1st dan in some form of karate 3 years ago to a 6th degree in ? Teaching ?. I can't figure it out myself.


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## shesulsa (Mar 6, 2012)

Amazing. All those guys in Washington state and I don't know one (none near me) and none in Portland.

Josh Oakley ... can you tell us about this organization?


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Amazing. All those guys in Washington state and I don't know one (none near me) and none in Portland.


Of course you do not know them...they are ninjas...and you can't see them....duh!


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

msmitht said:


> Don't know anyone on that site. You guys should check the videos on www.ninjasdoexist.com. local guy who went from a 1st dan in some form of karate 3 years ago to a 6th degree in ? Teaching ?. I can't figure it out myself.


Thank you for the comedy relief on a otherwise redundant day.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Amazing. All those guys in Washington state and I don't know one (none near me) and none in Portland.
> 
> Josh Oakley ... can you tell us about this organization?



Oh lord.... Can I just say it seemed like a good idea at the time? Only people I can vouch for on that list are Peter and Sukki. Peter was my student when I was in USSD and already a black belt in Shorinji Kenpo before he came to me, and Sukki was Wing Chun Do. All the Washington guys are good people, most are very good martial artists as well. 

There is an aikijutsu guy on there in Washington. He didn't train under Frank. I used to meet up with him at the coffee shop next to my dojo for chess and talking about martial arts.

Dux... Let's be honest, wouldn't matter if I vouched for him or not. He is a good instructor. I think a lot of the criticisms about him are misinformed. I think some of them are his own damn fault. Besides, like elder put it, I WAS his student. My reasons for leaving are my own and not anybody else's business.

Asia Kim I think I talked to once over the phone, some times on Facebook. I won't vouch for him.

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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

As for the organization itself... What can I say that hasn't been said already, for or against? I do not think I have ever gotten my money's worth out of it. They recognized my rank under frank as Sempai. All the events are in the south. Some in south Africa. 

They are also called the International Fighting Arts Association. Whether or not that is a post hoc add-on I don't know. 

I do know they don't normally let black belts into the club. I wasn't one at the time. Really not sure if I am one now, because Dux wasn't clear on it. So I don't claim to be.

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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

Actually let me amend something. Sky Benson is a great teacher. I vouch for him without reservation. I did not take a whole lot of lessons with him, but every one I took was fun, insightful, and he cares deeply about his students. Plus... $20 for a two hour class, and even then only if I could pay? Can't beat that.

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## elder999 (Mar 6, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> There is an aikijutsu guy on there in Washington. He didn't train under Frank. I used to meet up with him at the coffee shop next to my dojo for chess and talking about martial arts.



er....I'm sure he's a nice guy, but Yamate ryu *isn't* "aikijutsu.

Otherwise, Josh-thanks for your candor. :asian:


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## puunui (Mar 6, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Dux... Let's be honest, wouldn't matter if I vouched for him or not. He is a good instructor. I think a lot of the criticisms about him are misinformed. I think some of them are his own damn fault. Besides, like elder put it, I WAS his student. My reasons for leaving are my own and not anybody else's business.



I met Shihan Dux last year or a couple of years ago at a function. He seemed like a very nice man, and we didn't really talk about his background. He is very tall (much taller than Jean Claude Van Damme) and in shape I would say. Did you leave him recently?


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> I met Shihan Dux last year or a couple of years ago at a function. He seemed like a very nice man, and we didn't really talk about his background. He is very tall (much taller than Jean Claude Van Damme) and in shape I would say. Did you leave him recently?



Hanshi Dux, not Shihan.

I moved out around August of last year (I was his live in student). I stopped talking to him around the end of October. Like I said, he is a very good instructor. He is a nice guy, too. Has a LOT of charisma.

Despite our recent falling out, and all that is associated with that, I won't denigrate the man. I still hold respect for him.

Though yes, he really is surprisingly tall.

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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

elder999 said:


> er....I'm sure he's a nice guy, but Yamate ryu *isn't* "aikijutsu.
> 
> Otherwise, Josh-thanks for your candor. :asian:



Meh. He called it that. I don't know anything about aikijutsu OF yamate-ryu. You're probably right. I won't lie, I don't care enough about either art to really look into it.

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## oftheherd1 (Mar 6, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> You'll notice I am listed under that website as well. Then again, you SHOULD be suspicious of me. I am a sneaky bastard.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk



So I guess you can tell something about the organization and its leader?

EDIT:  Oops!  Sorry, I see you did.  I should have read the rest of the thread.  Thanks for your input and insight.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

See? My sneakiness abounds! No why you didn't see it the first time?

Ninja magic *waves hands around all mysterious-like*.

*vanishes in a puff of smoke*

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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Of course you do not know them...they are ninjas...and you can't see them....duh!



Your check's in the mail.

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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> So I guess you can tell something about the organization and its leader?
> 
> EDIT:  Oops!  Sorry, I see you did.  I should have read the rest of the thread.  Thanks for your input and insight.



There is a board of masters. The ones I can remember are Stuffed Van Vurren, Lawrence Day, Dux, and some other people.

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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2012)

Really appreciate it, Josh.  Can't be easy to talk about.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 6, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Really appreciate it, Josh.  Can't be easy to talk about.



It isn't. Thank you.

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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2012)

Josh, I really appreciate you being so open and willing to post what you did. I realize I kinda put you on the spot, but in light of so very many orgs and schools who get raked over the coals that have no representation on the board here, I thought it might be fair to them (and to you) to seek some clarity.

Thanks again for your replies here! :asian:


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## miguksaram (Mar 8, 2012)

Did Mst. Weiss ever get his question answered?


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 9, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Did Mst. Weiss ever get his question answered?



Apparently so far only in the negative as far as this board goes.


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## puunui (Mar 9, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Apparently so far only in the negative as far as this board goes.



He looks like he affiliates himself with the ITF and General Choi, and given his rank, you would think someone in the ITF has heard of him.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 9, 2012)

puunui said:


> He looks like he affiliates himself with the ITF and General Choi, and given his rank, you would think someone in the ITF has heard of him.



Sure would be easier if the ITF gave a listing of his blackbelts. 

Apparently he is part of the International Original Taekwondo Federation. I have no idea about this organization one way or the other. He is listed under their site though. I'll let the taekwondo cats talk about the IOTF, though. That's not my world.


http://www.iotf.info/


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 9, 2012)

puunui said:


> He looks like he affiliates himself with the ITF and General Choi, and given his rank, you would think someone in the ITF has heard of him.



You would think especialy since his time line of getting an ITF 9th Dan in 1997 would make him either the most Senior 9th dan or second most senior. At one point he had something on the web, now gone about General Choi rpomoting him at some secret meeting. 

At one point I sent him an e-mail becuase another fellow was putting together a list of ITF BBs with their cert #s.  I asked for his certificate numbers. His did respond but did not provide specific information. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 10, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> You would think especialy since his time line of getting an ITF 9th Dan in 1997 would make him either the most Senior 9th dan or second most senior. At one point he had something on the web, now gone about General Choi rpomoting him at some secret meeting.
> 
> At one point I sent him an e-mail becuase another fellow was putting together a list of ITF BBs with their cert #s.  I asked for his certificate numbers. His did respond but did not provide specific information. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.




At this point it sounds like you're hinting at something you would be better off taking to the investigations thread.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 11, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> At this point it sounds like you're hinting at something you would be better off taking to the investigations thread.



Please poin t me to the appropriate section / subsection.


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## jks9199 (Mar 11, 2012)

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## Earl Weiss (Mar 14, 2012)

OK, this is really a coincidence. This guy shows up at page 15 of the current issue of Totally TKD.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 16, 2012)

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114524&page=1


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## blackbelt3 (Feb 19, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> http://www.officialblackdragonfightingsociety.com/Bio/Grand Master Len G. Kirschbaum.html



How does someone not know this man? Just because someone doesn't have a name like Chuck Norris and goes around flaunting everything doesn't mean he's not who he says he is. Grand Master Kirschbaum has studied martial arts for over 50 years now. Most of you probably don't even have that amount of time combined. He started the martial arts circuit in wisconsin back in the 60's and 70's. Won world titles in professional fighting from 1977-1982 in the light heavyweight division. Grand Master Kirschbaum has trained his whole life and still is. He trained with General Choi Hong Hi, Father of Taekwon-Do until his passing in 2002. I think it is quite ridiculous that you people bash someone like this. Is it because you never had the chance to train with the people that he's trained with? I have known him my whole life. I know his truths. Just because his resume of martial arts looks quite extensive doesn't mean its not real. This man has devoted his LIFE to what he does and studies. Shame on you for trying to discredit someone. 

You can find me on facebook with any questions. Sabumnim Tabitha Kirschbaum (Daughter of Grand Master Kirschbaum)


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## granfire (Feb 19, 2013)

welcome to the insane asylum....

but why resurrect this old thread?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 19, 2013)

granfire said:


> welcome to the insane asylum....
> 
> but why resurrect this old thread?


Read the last sentence...at a guess, went on google to search his name, saw this thread, and did not like what she saw. Although as far as I know, no one definitively discredited him in this thread, just posted some reservations about him/the org the bio was from.


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## granfire (Feb 19, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> Read the last sentence...at a guess, went on google to search his name, saw this thread, and did not like what she saw. Although as far as I know, no one definitively discredited him in this thread, just posted some reservations about him/the org the bio was from.



I read it....I always read the last post on resurrected zombie threads...

at one point you leave well enough alone....


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## Tames D (Feb 19, 2013)

granfire said:


> I read it....I always read the last post on resurrected zombie threads...
> 
> at one point you leave well enough alone....



I don't have a problem with someone bringing back an old thread. Because I know I don't have to read it. If you saw an old thread where someone you knew and respected was being discredited (or you thought they were) wouldn't you try to set the record straight? Or, because it's an old thread, just ignore it.


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## granfire (Feb 19, 2013)

as a forum veteran....once it drops off page one, best to leave it there....


I know I for one will now lay awake again, wondering how the man found time to do all those MA things....all while presumably holdign a day job and spending time with family.

in the end, nothing gained from pushing it back up front.


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## Gorilla (Feb 19, 2013)

Whatever looks like Master Ken to me!


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 20, 2013)

blackbelt3 said:


> He trained with General Choi Hong Hi, Father of Taekwon-Do until his passing in 2002.
> 
> . Shame on you for trying to discredit someone.
> 
> You can find me on facebook with any questions. Sabumnim Tabitha Kirschbaum (Daughter of Grand Master Kirschbaum)



Welcome to the forum and thank you for posting. 

Questions have been asked and remain unanswered.  Specificaly with what appears to be ITF 7-8-9th Dan rankings under General Choi. 

There are sites putting together lists of  ITF Dans and numbers. There is a lot of missing information (So abscence does not mean rank is not genuine.)  which is solicited from any and all sources to provide a more complete list. 

There is no information for 7-8-9. Would you care to provide ITF certificate numbers for those ranks?


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 20, 2013)

As a followup, raising a question about experiences with someone has no bearing on the subjects abilities or knowledge. I for one tyoicaly only rely either on my firsthand experience to form an opinion, or in some cases rely on the firsthanmd experience of someone I know well. 

A recent experience highlights this. About 15 years ago I was at a knife course and was introduced to the Karambit wich I found to be an interesting weapon. About 10-12 years ago I was in a used bookstore and found an entir book written on thei weapon by Steve Tarani whom I never herd of. Then a few months ago a friend invites me to a knife course. I ask who the instructor is and he says "Steve Tarani". 
Suffice it to say that having been to about 6 knife courses before this one, --- it was the best.  To be fair the thrust (pun intended) was a little different since a portion was devoted to accessing and using your gun if confronted with a knife as  a portion was geared toward military and LEOs. That material was outside the scope of the other courses. 

So, few probably know of Mr. Tarani, yet his material and abilities were top notch.


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