# The Pat down....



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 1, 2010)

When doing a pat down on someone, how long does it usually take, and what's the smallest items you expect to find?  I recently flew and chose to be patted down rather than go through the 'naked scanner', and the screener missed the eye drops and papers in my pockets. Also was less than 5 minutes in duration.


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## jks9199 (Jun 1, 2010)

Depends on the context.  That wasn't really a pat-down, it was a consent search.  Apparently not a particularly well conducted one...

A pat-down or frisk is a brief search of the outer garments/immediately accessible areas of the subject for weapons.  (See Terry v Ohio and its progeny.)  Generally, an involuntary frisk requires reasonable suspicion that the subject is committing a crime, or is about to, and that they are armed.  A frisk shouldn't take long; really just a few seconds.  It's not a search for contraband or anything else.

A search takes place under lots of circumstances; incident to arrest, pursuant to a search warrant, and more.  The key one in this context is a consent search; you consented to be searched by the TSA official rather than go through the super-duper scanner gadget.  It could take as long as you let the guy go, and have been as thorough as you permitted it.  Had you been asked to strip down, bend over, spread 'em and cough... and done it... it was still consensual.  (You could have always chosen to drive rather than fly, or go through the scanner...)  Realistically, the TSA search won't take more than a couple minutes, and I'm rather confident that I could probably carry a large number of weapons with me... and not have them detected.


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## Carol (Jun 1, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> When doing a pat down on someone, how long does it usually take, and what's the smallest items you expect to find?  I recently flew and chose to be patted down rather than go through the 'naked scanner', and the screener missed the eye drops and papers in my pockets. Also was less than 5 minutes in duration.



The times I've had to do the macarena for the TSA, they have all been less than 5 minutes in duration.   If its been more than that, its because there was a delay in getting a female agent over to where I was.   No big deal, IMO.  

I don't know about the smallest items that they can find....if I carry anything in my pocket, its my jacket pocket, which I always take off and send through the x-ray.


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## jks9199 (Jun 1, 2010)

One more thing, about the smallest thing I expect to find...

In a search on the street, like a prisoner search, I expect to find pretty small items (say about .25 square inches).  But I'm not surprised if I miss something.  That's why the deputies do another search once I get 'em to the jail... and a third, THOROUGH search before they get put into the holding cells.


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## Archangel M (Jun 2, 2010)

Airport searches are an entirely different animal from LE "pat downs" or stop and frisks.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 2, 2010)

What the others said.  I believe the laws have changed somewhat, but at one time, a stop-and-frisk that turned up a baggie of contraband would not allow for a good bust, because a soft baggy with leafy matter could not reasonably be mistaken for a weapon in a pocket.  On the other hand, one of the things I learned in academy was to get over my shyness about reaching into the naughty bit zone.  You got to get right in there, stir things up.  Yeah, nobody likes it; giving or receiving.  Well some might, but I don't want to know about that.

I had an instructor I will always remember, who challenged the class to frisk him, one by one.  We all had a go. He was well-armed, and we found some of the weapons.  Missed the razor blade in the brim of his baseball cap and the six-foot motorcycle chain in his underwear at the crotch.  The noise that made when he whipped it out and slammed it on the desk and said _"That was your head I just caved in"_ was something I will always remember.

However, I can tell you stories (as all cops can) why we took the rear seats out of our cruisers after each shift and check the floorboards with a flashlight.  Scary the things that are found on the floorboards, which were obviously dumped by people being transported who were supposedly frisked for weapons and found to be clean.  Yikes.


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## Drac (Jun 2, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I had an instructor I will always remember, who challenged the class to frisk him, one by one. We all had a go. He was well-armed, and we found some of the weapons. Missed the razor blade in the brim of his baseball cap and the six-foot motorcycle chain in his underwear at the crotch. The noise that made when he whipped it out and slammed it on the desk and said _"That was your head I just caved in"_ was something I will always remember.


 
We do alot of patdowns and frisk search exercises in the academy.Its always the weapons hidden in some guys crotch that gets overlooked.



Bill Mattocks said:


> However, I can tell you stories (as all cops can) why we took the rear seats out of our cruisers after each shift and check the floorboards with a flashlight. Scary the things that are found on the floorboards, which were obviously dumped by people being transported who were supposedly frisked for weapons and found to be clean. Yikes.


 
Yup..A loaded.22 was found once after a suspect was cuffed and stuffed by one of the " favored sons"..


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## Balrog (Jun 7, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Realistically, the TSA search won't take more than a couple minutes, and I'm rather confident that I could probably carry a large number of weapons with me... and not have them detected.



The TSA search is worthless.  It accomplishes nothing more than annoying the paying passengers.  It does not make us any safer in the slightest.  I've been going through x-ray, metal detector, wands, etc. for years now and every frigging time, they let me on board the aircraft with enough weapons that if I did flip my lid, I could kill and/or maim several people before the passengers could overcome me by sheer mass.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 8, 2010)

Balrog said:


> The TSA search is worthless.  It accomplishes nothing more than annoying the paying passengers.  It does not make us any safer in the slightest.  I've been going through x-ray, metal detector, wands, etc. for years now and every frigging time, they let me on board the aircraft with enough weapons that if I did flip my lid, I could kill and/or maim several people before the passengers could overcome me by sheer mass.



Perhaps not the smartest thing to say on an open forum...just sayin'...no one is anonymous.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 8, 2010)

I still think they're clowns.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 8, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I still think they're clowns.



We are in agreement there.  However, I consider them vengeful, angry clowns with badges and way too much authority.  A clown with a seltzer bottle is funny.  A clown with a search warrant is scary.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 8, 2010)

Agreed.


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 11, 2010)

What, you mean the TSA isn't a professionally trained group of professionals dedicated to the security of our nation, the safety of airline passengers, and the smooth operation of passenger embarkation services? Perish the thought!


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## Balrog (Jun 16, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Perhaps not the smartest thing to say on an open forum...just sayin'...no one is anonymous.


It's not the first time I've said it, and it's been said by many, many others.  And I have no objections.  If TSA wants to trace me down and come knock on my door, I'll be more than happy to show them what I'm talking about.

As it is, they should be happy that I'm someone who will NOT flip out and who would instead use that capability to help restrain someone else who did flip out.


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## Balrog (Jun 16, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> We are in agreement there.  However, I consider them vengeful, angry clowns with badges and way too much authority.  A clown with a seltzer bottle is funny.  A clown with a search warrant is scary.


True dat!


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