# Striking, Sparring and CTE



## TMA17 (Sep 28, 2018)

Study suggests blows to the head that don’t cause concussions can still cause CTE

Watched Rogan’s show with Ben Askren.  They discussed how prevalent CTE is becoming within the MMA and NFL.

Think long and hard before training MMA before you can’t think at all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2018)

That's by no means limited to MMA. I suspect some folks who went through some of the methods used in the past for teaching falls in Aikido got much the same effect. I know of at least one credible account of someone dying from an untreated head injury because he (a newbie) was left for an entire class practicing falls he wasn't doing well.

The real message is to take care of your head. Make conscious (no pun intended) decisions about how much head trauma - even the small stuff - you're willing to accept.


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## Kababayan (Sep 28, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Study suggests blows to the head that don’t cause concussions can still cause CTE
> 
> Watched Rogan’s show with Ben Askren.  They discussed how prevalent CTE is becoming within the MMA and NFL.
> 
> Think long and hard before training MMA before you can’t think at all.





gpseymour said:


> That's by no means limited to MMA. I suspect some folks who went through some of the methods used in the past for teaching falls in Aikido got much the same effect. I know of at least one credible account of someone dying from an untreated head injury because he (a newbie) was left for an entire class practicing falls he wasn't doing well.
> 
> The real message is to take care of your head. Make conscious (no pun intended) decisions about how much head trauma - even the small stuff - you're willing to accept.




That's the main reason that I didn't want to start Judo at age 43.  I would love to take Judo and have so much respect for it, but the risk of concussion is very high.


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## MetalBoar (Sep 28, 2018)

It's a serious topic and it doesn't seem like we know enough yet to have a clear picture about the volume, frequency or intensity of impact necessary create a significant risk for CTE, nor what all might pre-dispose someone to be at greater risk from impact. Because we know so little, we also seem to be kind of fumbling around in the dark trying to figure out what sort of protocols to implement to minimize the risk of brain trauma, especially from less obvious injuries. It sounds like there's probably evidence that dehydration increases the risks, so extreme cutting to make weight probably isn't a great idea, but what else? And what might be done to reduce the risks?

As gpseymour states it's not just MMA, and it's not even just martial arts. I've read that heading the ball in soccer can lead to problems and I imagine there are other athletic activities that we don't even think about that could lead to trouble. And even in MMA it might not be what we think. When I was looking at doing some MMA classes I asked a friend with a lot of experience with Muay Thai what he thought of the CTE risks. His response surprised me; he felt that in his experience, Muay Thai was probably the safest of the MMA related arts he'd practiced in terms of CTE. He felt that there were a LOT more minor but significant blows to the head in boxing, which makes sense. What surprised me was when he said he'd never had a concussion doing Muay Thai or boxing but that he'd had two significant concussions doing BJJ caused by accident when he took a knee to the head when opponents rapidly changed position.

On the other hand, we KNOW that being too afraid to do anything physical and just sitting around watching TV is going to lead to health problems too. I guess I'll just have to keep doing what interests me, keep up on the research and do my best to protect my brain with the info we've got.


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## TMA17 (Sep 28, 2018)

Great points.  I just started doing takedowns in BJJ and learning how to fall is important.  A few times I landed hard on my shoulder.  I also decided to stay away from Judo for this reason.

I would guess that CTE is more prevalent in striking arts overall, especially if sparring a lot.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 28, 2018)

As MetalBoar points out, there is a lot of science left to be done regarding the exact weighting of risk factors. It does seem that the main factors are probably severity of impact, frequency of impact, and how close together (time-wise) the impacts occur. Taking three hard hits in the same day is almost certainly worse than taking those same hits a year apart, when your brain has a chance to heal.

I've taken some hits over the years. They may have done some damage, but if so the effect is pretty much indistinguishable from the normal cognitive slowing I might expect at my age. One factor in my favor is probably that any time I've taken a really significant head impact I've given myself time to recover before getting back in the ring. The one exception would be the time I got dropped by a hard accidental head butt and then a week later (when I thought I was all better) I took an accidental knee to the same exact spot. That really, really hurt but fortunately doesn't seem to have cost me too many IQ points.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 28, 2018)

Not reading the article, im betting its whats been known for a while...its not getting a bad concussion or two, its building up over time with repeated minor head trauma that you may not even notice. The issue is, you dont realize it until after you start having symptoms.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> That's the main reason that I didn't want to start Judo at age 43.  I would love to take Judo and have so much respect for it, but the risk of concussion is very high.


With modern training, the risk of concussion isn't very high, unless you opt for high-level competition (where perhaps it gets elevated a bit). With some of the "old school" methods I've heard of in some Aikido dojos (never heard of them in Judo dojos/clubs, BTW), there can be a very long time spent just doing falls. That's a lot of jangling of the brain if they aren't being done right. I've taken Judo-type falls for more than 30 years (going back to my days in actual Judo), and I've only had anything that _might_ have been a concussion a couple of times from falls.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Not reading the article, im betting its whats been known for a while...its not getting a bad concussion or two, its building up over time with repeated minor head trauma that you may not even notice. The issue is, you dont realize it until after you start having symptoms.


It's that last part that's scary. I do wonder about the repeated minor bumping around of my head.


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> That's the main reason that I didn't want to start Judo at age 43.  I would love to take Judo and have so much respect for it, but the risk of concussion is very high.



The quoted study (and others somewhat like it) all seem to point to degeneration following trauma which usually takes time to develop.

Things like teenagers having trouble later in life.

So say it takes 20-30 years for these things to usually happen (barring the type of thing @gpseymour referred to, which is not really the same anyway), that means you're actually at much lower risk than if you started as a teen.

I started TKD just before I was 40 - so going off the averages I'll be 60+ before the cumulative effects really take hold.

But, I'll probably be slowing down before that anyway, which may or may not affect the progression of the problem.

Chances are, it'll be one thing on the list of stuff making me mental by that point, rather than the only thing...


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## Headhunter (Sep 28, 2018)

At the end of the day there's always going to be risks...hell there's risk of heading a football causing brain damage. But at the end of the day what's the point in worrying. It might happen it might not. There are people who smoke for 50 years and have no complications. You could get hit in the head a million times and be fine or you could get hit in the head 50 times and get it. That's life. Life isn't fair, life doesn't make sense why worry about it? I've taken a lot of punches over the years I feel fine my memories good enough I talk fine, I spell fine. Worrying isn't going to change what happens to my brain now. All worrying will do is stress me and that can make your head worse.


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## Headhunter (Sep 28, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Great points.  I just started doing takedowns in BJJ and learning how to fall is important.  A few times I landed hard on my shoulder.  I also decided to stay away from Judo for this reason.
> 
> I would guess that CTE is more prevalent in striking arts overall, especially if sparring a lot.


Not necessarily...in Bjj I've taken numerous accidental knees to the head, elbows to the head, kicks to the head from guys rolling next to me. Nothing majorly hard but still you get them


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's that last part that's scary. I do wonder about the repeated minor bumping around of my head.


I believe ive mentioned it before, but its why i stopped striking arts. People pointed out i was having some memory issues, i also started noticing some issues with word recall that i didnt have, and that at 22 (when i started noticing) i should not be experiencing. I have no idea whether its the beginning of CTE or not, but no more striking arts for me. Now just grappling and weapons. Especially since ive had somewhere between 10-20 head injuries that most people would classify as concussions(not all ma related)...


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

A friend of mine had (and still has) just about all of the symptoms listed.

He went to bed one night, next thing he remembers is waking up in hospital 3 days later being told he'd had a stroke. According to his wife he was fully conscious and doing things, just doing them wrong... All that got wiped.

Whether it was related to a pretty serious motorbike accident he had a few months previous nobody can tell.

The brain is a very strange place.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 28, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> That's the main reason that I didn't want to start Judo at age 43.  I would love to take Judo and have so much respect for it, but the risk of concussion is very high.


Practice within your own limits and move at your own pace.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> The quoted study (and others somewhat like it) all seem to point to degeneration following trauma which usually takes time to develop.
> 
> Things like teenagers having trouble later in life.
> 
> ...


And add the question of whether the early trauma is actually worse - does it affect future brain development? There's so much we don't know, but it does seem clear that early trauma somehow adds up to a worse problem, either because of magnified effect or longer exposure time to create more trauma, or both.


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## Martial D (Sep 29, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Study suggests blows to the head that don’t cause concussions can still cause CTE
> 
> Watched Rogan’s show with Ben Askren.  They discussed how prevalent CTE is becoming within the MMA and NFL.
> 
> Think long and hard before training MMA before you can’t think at all.


Nothing worthwhile comes without risk.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's that last part that's scary. I do wonder about the repeated minor bumping around of my head.


Not sure why you are worried.   Our body's aren't as delicate as we sometime think it is.

Basing on how our body functions on everything else, it seems that key is not the injury to the head that is the real danger but the time we have for healing between injuries.  For example,  how long do football players get for healing head trauma in between games?  Is it enough time to actually heal?  Think of MMA fighters.  How long do they have between head injuries to heal.

I'm no scientist but this is true with everything else about our body.  It's the time in between injuries that plays an important role in proper healing and recovery.  Healing time often determines how well the recovery will be.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure why you are worried.   Our body's aren't as delicate as we sometime think it is.
> 
> Basing on how our body functions on everything else, it seems that key is not the injury to the head that is the real danger but the time we have for healing between injuries.  For example,  how long do football players get for healing head trauma in between games?  Is it enough time to actually heal?  Think of MMA fighters.  How long do they have between head injuries to heal.
> 
> I'm no scientist but this is true with everything else about our body.  It's the time in between injuries that plays an important role in proper healing and recovery.  Healing time often determines how well the recovery will be.


The issue is that the medical community doesn't yet actually understand the full process of these injuries. There's no definitive information on healing time - especially in respect to many small bumps. Nor in respect to the difference in injury and healing between juvenile and adult brains. I've taken a lot of minor bumps over the years, without knowing the what I know now. No telling, really, whether that has any long-term effect


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The issue is that the medical community doesn't yet actually understand the full process of these injuries. There's no definitive information on healing time - especially in respect to many small bumps. Nor in respect to the difference in injury and healing between juvenile and adult brains. I've taken a lot of minor bumps over the years, without knowing the what I know now. No telling, really, whether that has any long-term effect


 while that may be true.  My guess a minor bump this week, a minor bump next week, another minor bump 2 weeks later wouldn't qualify as "enough healing time."   If we hit a bruise with the same frequency, it wouldn't heal properly either.    The bigger the bruise the more damaging the repeated impacts would be. For soft tissue like the brain I would think this would be even more so.  From what they do understand about CTE, it's the repetitiveness that causes the damage.

People who have head injuries from accidents don't display similar CTE damage as those who have had repetitive impacts.

This is the healing time for traumatic brain injuries 
"The person continues to improve between *six months and two years* after injury, but this varies for different people and may not happen as fast as the first *six months*. Improvements slow down substantially after *two years* but may still occur many years after injury."

Not sure if there is a study for minor bumps.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> while that may be true.  My guess a minor bump this week, a minor bump next week, another minor bump 2 weeks later wouldn't qualify as "enough healing time."   If we hit a bruise with the same frequency, it wouldn't heal properly either.    The bigger the bruise the more damaging the repeated impacts would be. For soft tissue like the brain I would think this would be even more so.  From what they do understand about CTE, it's the repetitiveness that causes the damage.
> 
> People who have head injuries from accidents don't display similar CTE damage as those who have had repetitive impacts.
> 
> ...


There have been studies of repetitive injury via more minor bumps (including heading the ball in soccer) that aren't viewed as injuries in the moment. While they do show a correlation that probably demonstrates causality, there's just not enough info yet on what the healing time is. We really know fairly little about how the brain heals - not that long ago, it was largely believed that it didn't do much of that. So, we just don't know what those passing bumps in the head during groundwork, jostling of the head when taking a bad fall from a throw, and light hits during moderate sparring will add up to.


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## pdg (Sep 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There have been studies of repetitive injury via more minor bumps (including heading the ball in soccer) that aren't viewed as injuries in the moment. While they do show a correlation that probably demonstrates causality, there's just not enough info yet on what the healing time is. We really know fairly little about how the brain heals - not that long ago, it was largely believed that it didn't do much of that. So, we just don't know what those passing bumps in the head during groundwork, jostling of the head when taking a bad fall from a throw, and light hits during moderate sparring will add up to.



Considering how little is truly known, it could be said that you're at as much risk from slumping heavily into the sofa while holding a beer, getting a bit enthusiastic with the head nodding at a concert or even excessive facepalming when confronted with the actions of the general population...


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> Considering how little is truly known, it could be said that you're at as much risk from slumping heavily into the sofa while holding a beer, getting a bit enthusiastic with the head nodding at a concert or even excessive facepalming when confronted with the actions of the general population...


Possibly. None of the evidence has shown that level of risk. I think there was one that looked at headbanging some years ago, but I forget what their conclusion was. Maybe because of all that headbanging in high school.


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## now disabled (Sep 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Possibly. None of the evidence has shown that level of risk. I think there was one that looked at headbanging some years ago, but I forget what their conclusion was. Maybe because of all that headbanging in high school.



Or the practicing of breakfalls in motel rooms lol


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## now disabled (Sep 30, 2018)

It is a serious subject tho that more research needs to be done on, Even the rugby world is starting to take notice now of even the inkling of head injury. They do do a test of field before a person can return and if they do not pass the test they do not get to get back in the game and then will face a mandatory lay off


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Study suggests blows to the head that don’t cause concussions can still cause CTE
> 
> Watched Rogan’s show with Ben Askren.  They discussed how prevalent CTE is becoming within the MMA and NFL.
> 
> Think long and hard before training MMA before you can’t think at all.



That's why training MMA is the highest level of Martial Arts training. But people on here often cry when confronted with this reality.


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## pdg (Oct 3, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> That's why* I think* training MMA is the highest level of Martial Arts training* for me*. But people on here often *disagree* when confronted with this* opinion, which is all it is because it's not verifiable*.



Edited and added to for accuracy.

Hth.


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## Headhunter (Oct 3, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> That's why training MMA is the highest level of Martial Arts training. But people on here often cry when confronted with this reality.


So you think getting brain damage is a good thing....smart...


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## Headhunter (Oct 3, 2018)

pdg said:


> Edited and added to for accuracy.
> 
> Hth.


Yeah I really don't get his comment....the op says how Mma is likely to give you brain damage and he replies. This proves Mma is the ultimate martial art....um what? I'm thinking he may have trained to much Mma if you know what I mean


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## skribs (Oct 3, 2018)

I see the other side of it, too.  Most of those "kung fu master fights MMA fighter" videos feature someone who has honed the perfect technique, but never sparred, and as soon as he takes one hit he's basically done for.  I don't know if it's that he's never actually been punched or if its that he is shocked his perfect technique let an attack through, but after that it quickly becomes a TKO.

Should you need to defend yourself, I think part of martial arts training is getting used to taking a hit or two and keeping your wits about you.

The other thing is that pain is a powerful teacher.  I'm not advocating for brain injury, but if you're sparring, you learn how to avoid hits because you generally don't want to get hit.  Another thing that could be important should you need to defend yourself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2018)

skribs said:


> I see the other side of it, too.  Most of those "kung fu master fights MMA fighter" videos feature someone who has honed the perfect technique, but never sparred, and as soon as he takes one hit he's basically done for.  I don't know if it's that he's never actually been punched or if its that he is shocked his perfect technique let an attack through, but after that it quickly becomes a TKO.
> 
> Should you need to defend yourself, I think part of martial arts training is getting used to taking a hit or two and keeping your wits about you.
> 
> The other thing is that pain is a powerful teacher.  I'm not advocating for brain injury, but if you're sparring, you learn how to avoid hits because you generally don't want to get hit.  Another thing that could be important should you need to defend yourself.


Agreed. That's part of the trade-off we all have to consider (those of us training to be able to fight/defend). More real hits will - to some extent - toughen reactions and reduce the surprise of being hit. But every real hit carries some risk of real injury, and we don't really know right now where the line might be crossed that leads to permanent brain injury.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. That's part of the trade-off we all have to consider (those of us training to be able to fight/defend). More real hits will - to some extent - toughen reactions and reduce the surprise of being hit. But every real hit carries some risk of real injury, and we don't really know right now where the line might be crossed that leads to permanent brain injury.


My rule for sparring is that the student has to be able to defend against the majority of the strikes to the head (more than 65% of the strike).  If the student can do this then 1of three things will happen :
1. Pulled from sparring 
2. Forced to only spar with me
3. Forced to only spar with someone on the same skill level.

There's just no benefit to cosistantly eat punches everytime you spar.   After you get to a certain skill level, there no need to connect to the head with a strike in order to know you could have landed a solid punch.


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> So you think getting brain damage is a good thing....smart...



Of course this scares you, that's why you train Krav Maga.


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah I really don't get his comment....the op says how Mma is likely to give you brain damage and he replies. This proves Mma is the ultimate martial art....um what? I'm thinking he may have trained to much Mma if you know what I mean



MMA is def. not for weak men, that's for sure.


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

pdg said:


> Edited and added to for accuracy.
> 
> Hth.



If you can't handle it, then it's obviously is a higher level of training. The truth just hurts. You think MMA fighters can't go to your gym and memorize kata?


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> My rule for sparring is that the student has to be able to defend against the majority of the strikes to the head (more than 65% of the strike).  If the student can do this then 1of three things will happen :
> 1. Pulled from sparring
> 2. Forced to only spar with me
> 3. Forced to only spar with someone on the same skill level.
> ...




Don't you find that when you put 2 people "on the same skill level" together, that that's usually when wars erupt?  They are usually rivals (in a friendly way) at the gym. And most people also holds grudges which is just competitiveness.

Getting hit 35% of the time at 50% power to the head can still = a concussion.


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

This thread exposes a lot of people who claims to train really rough and tough or "the real thing" ....yet they're afraid of CTE? It's like playing full contact football but asking that nobody hits you.  Because even if you train in some strip mall TKD joint, you can still get a concussion  from a good kick to the head during average sparring, with those cheap Century headgear on. Even with my $100 headgear, I'm sure that a TKD BB can knock me out with 1 good kick.

Sparring can be light or even just touch sparring, but **** can go down and someone gets mad or thinks they got hit harder than what was agreed upon, and it turns into a war. I've been to Kung-Fu joints where there was def. head trauma sparring and it was light to medium power.

So I just wonder where you experts are training where nobody hits you in the head, even mildly  (that will result in that CTE down the road). Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.


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## skribs (Oct 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> My rule for sparring is that the student has to be able to defend against the majority of the strikes to the head (more than 65% of the strike).  If the student can do this then 1of three things will happen :
> 1. Pulled from sparring
> 2. Forced to only spar with me
> 3. Forced to only spar with someone on the same skill level.
> ...



I assume you meant "if the student can't do this".  Yes, I agree.  You shouldn't just eat punches.  But you should take a few light to medium hits so when you do take a hit you know how to.

One of the kids at my dojang didn't listen to me when I was coaching him in a tournament.  He'd just gotten his black belt, and despite us saying "keep your hands up" in class since white belt, still was a bit lazy on it.  The other kid got like 12 head shots on him in 1 round.  They called the match after that round and didn't let it go into round 2 or 3, because of so many head hits.

So I definitely understand it's a balance.


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> MMA is def. not for weak men, that's for sure.


Cool story bro


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Of course this scares you, that's why you train Krav Maga.


Yep just like I train Muay Thai, boxing, Bjj, western kickboxing and had multiple fights in each of them. With your dumb comments I've lost all respect for you so don't bother replying I'll just ignore you


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## pdg (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> If you can't handle it, then it's obviously is a higher level of training. The truth just hurts. You think MMA fighters can't go to your gym and memorize kata?



It's a different type of training, not necessarily "a higher level".

And there's also a difference between not being able to handle it and not having any interest in it.

I wouldn't expect an MMA fighter to have much interest in coming to do patterns (some might though), so they'll likely have trouble remembering them due to lack of interest.

I don't _want_ to train MMA (that's the style btw, not the literal meaning of different arts), just like I don't _want_ to work in an office again, and I don't _want_ to go to the dentist.

Also, the level of intensity you put into your training is down to you, not the style. You can slack off in an MMA gym just as you can push yourself anywhere else. The coaches in an MMA gym won't force you to try harder, they'll probably encourage you but if that doesn't work they'll just keep taking your money until you quit.


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## pdg (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.



Quite honestly, that's just stupid.


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> Quite honestly, that's just stupid.


Like I said I think he's sparred to much


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> This thread exposes a lot of people who claims to train really rough and tough or "the real thing" ....yet they're afraid of CTE? It's like playing full contact football but asking that nobody hits you.  Because even if you train in some strip mall TKD joint, you can still get a concussion  from a good kick to the head during average sparring, with those cheap Century headgear on. Even with my $100 headgear, I'm sure that a TKD BB can knock me out with 1 good kick.
> 
> Sparring can be light or even just touch sparring, but **** can go down and someone gets mad or thinks they got hit harder than what was agreed upon, and it turns into a war. I've been to Kung-Fu joints where there was def. head trauma sparring and it was light to medium power.
> 
> So I just wonder where you experts are training where nobody hits you in the head, even mildly  (that will result in that CTE down the road). Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.


Yeah enjoy your brain damage when you're an old man and when you're barely able to walk and talk think back on these comments if you can remember this far back.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Don't you find that when you put 2 people "on the same skill level" together, that that's usually when wars erupt?  They are usually rivals (in a friendly way) at the gym. And most people also holds grudges which is just competitiveness.
> 
> Getting hit 35% of the time at 50% power to the head can still = a concussion.


When we spar we rarely go 50% power and  50% speed.  That is too dangerous for trying to learn how to apply a technique that you have never used before. 

Our punches at 40% are strong enough to daze someone.  We play in the 20% - 35% range.  If you can't prevent head shots at that speed.  Then there is no way you can prevent the same punch at a higher speed and a higher power.  The other factor for us is that I encourage students to attack what is open instead of always trying to hit the head.  

If you spar with me and always guard your head then I won't punch your head.  However if I see an opening then I will go for it.  If you spar at 50% or higher then you'll need to block more than 20% of the headshots.  Because those punches are landing harder and become more difficult to block.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Don't you find that when you put 2 people "on the same skill level" together, that that's usually when wars erupt?  They are usually rivals (in a friendly way) at the gym. And most people also holds grudges which is just competitiveness.
> 
> Getting hit 35% of the time at 50% power to the head can still = a concussion.


Oh about the wars that errupt.  When I see that things are getting too tense.  I will tell my sparring partner to decrease the intensity.  For me, I never unknowingly increase intensity.  I always have to be mindful of it.


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## TMA17 (Oct 4, 2018)

I like the idea of sparring at about 50% max.  You can still get a sense of timing and feel and not get banged up. Sure, sparring hard is going to toughen someone up real fast, but it comes with a price, one I'm not willing to pay. 

MMA will always produce the best fighters.  It's no contest they have it down to a science and the pressure testing, conditioning and training is second to none.  These guys are being paid to take a beating.


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## skribs (Oct 4, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I like the idea of sparring at about 50% max.  You can still get a sense of timing and feel and not get banged up. Sure, sparring hard is going to toughen someone up real fast, but it comes with a price, one I'm not willing to pay.



I think it's better to vary it.

10% sometimes.  Non-contact sometimes.  25%-50% sometimes.

But every once in a while you need a good fight.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.


Not a great idea even for those who aspire to be professional fighters. You only get so many concussions in your life before you get permanent brain damage. If you reach that limit during training it doesn't leave much for your time actually fighting in the ring or cage.

I'm not any kind of pro, but I have had a couple of fights in the ring. Lost by KO the first time, won by KO the second time. In neither case did my head ring all night. I've also trained and sparred with pro fighters and we weren't trying to give each other concussions.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> This thread exposes a lot of people who claims to train really rough and tough or "the real thing" ....yet they're afraid of CTE? It's like playing full contact football but asking that nobody hits you.  Because even if you train in some strip mall TKD joint, you can still get a concussion  from a good kick to the head during average sparring, with those cheap Century headgear on. Even with my $100 headgear, I'm sure that a TKD BB can knock me out with 1 good kick.
> 
> Sparring can be light or even just touch sparring, but **** can go down and someone gets mad or thinks they got hit harder than what was agreed upon, and it turns into a war. I've been to Kung-Fu joints where there was def. head trauma sparring and it was light to medium power.
> 
> So I just wonder where you experts are training where nobody hits you in the head, even mildly  (that will result in that CTE down the road). Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.


You seem to be confusing the concept of concern over burgeoning understanding of brain injury with the inability to function and unwillingness to accept some risk. They are two different things. But you do that kind of a lot.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> I assume you meant "if the student can't do this".  Yes, I agree.  You shouldn't just eat punches.  But you should take a few light to medium hits so when you do take a hit you know how to.
> 
> One of the kids at my dojang didn't listen to me when I was coaching him in a tournament.  He'd just gotten his black belt, and despite us saying "keep your hands up" in class since white belt, still was a bit lazy on it.  The other kid got like 12 head shots on him in 1 round.  They called the match after that round and didn't let it go into round 2 or 3, because of so many head hits.
> 
> So I definitely understand it's a balance.


Yes.  I've been typing on a phone all week.  Thanks for the correction.   I agree with you that some hits are just needed do the student will know.  At higher skill levels it's less of an issue because you are more likely to see "what could have been" and not make contact at all.  I have a video that shows exactly this.  He knew right away that he made a fatal mistake and acknowledge the reality of the danger he put himself in.  There was no need for me to follow through and actually hit him.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 4, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not a great idea even for those who aspire to be professional fighters. You only get so many concussions in your life before you get permanent brain damage. If you reach that limit during training it doesn't leave much for your time actually fighting in the ring or cage.



American Top Team, American Kickboxing Academy, Jackson-Winklejohn, Wild Card Boxing, Mayweather Boxing Club, etc....

All disagrees with you. How many World Champions have you trained, personally? How many World Champions have your gym trained?

Now on the other hand, I agree with you when it comes to what I'd subject myself to and what I'd subject my students to...in terms of such head trauma as apart of fight training.....but then again, I'm a nobody in the Fight Game....pretty much, just like yourself.



> I'm not any kind of pro, but I have had a couple of fights in the ring. Lost by KO the first time, won by KO the second time. In neither case did my head ring all night.



Well I meant, in general. Everyone's different. And what kind of KO? Head KO or body KO?



> I've also trained and sparred with pro fighters and we weren't trying to give each other concussions



Did I even say that sparring with Pro fighters, would equate to hard sparring for concussions at all times and every time?  Since we're semi dropping names, I spar somewhat regularly with a top 20 UFC welterweight, and it's only hard to the body.....but this still doesn't prove anything.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think it's better to vary it.
> 
> 10% sometimes.  Non-contact sometimes.  25%-50% sometimes.
> 
> But every once in a while you need a good fight.


I agree sometimes you need a higher level of intensity just to see if you trust your techniques as much as you think you do.  A higher intensity level will erase all doubts about what you think you can do.


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## FriedRice (Oct 4, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> When we spar we rarely go 50% power and  50% speed.  That is too dangerous for trying to learn how to apply a technique that you have never used before.
> 
> Our punches at 40% are strong enough to daze someone.  We play in the 20% - 35% range.  If you can't prevent head shots at that speed.  Then there is no way you can prevent the same punch at a higher speed and a higher power.  The other factor for us is that I encourage students to attack what is open instead of always trying to hit the head.
> 
> If you spar with me and always guard your head then I won't punch your head.  However if I see an opening then I will go for it.  If you spar at 50% or higher then you'll need to block more than 20% of the headshots.  Because those punches are landing harder and become more difficult to block.



Interesting. Not to brag or anything, but I can go 70-100% speed....esp. with jabs, at  a 10 year old's face and make contact with just a touch, when sparring. Ok, that was bragging....or maybe I'm just not that fast. Haven't knocked anyone out yet in the past 5 years.


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## FriedRice (Oct 4, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah enjoy your brain damage when you're an old man and when you're barely able to walk and talk think back on these comments if you can remember this far back.



Yeah I get it, you're afraid of being hit in the face for real as apart of training. Krav Maga is the right place for you.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> Quite honestly, that's just stupid.


 
^^^ Exhibit A


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## FriedRice (Oct 4, 2018)

pdg said:


> It's a different type of training, not necessarily "a higher level".
> 
> And there's also a difference between not being able to handle it and not having any interest in it.
> 
> ...



Don't want to, does not = not able to or not afraid to.

While being afraid of getting hit in the face hard = not being able to due to fear.

Therefore, a higher level of training, MMA, which you fear. While I don't fear kata, I just didn't care to waste more of my time with it. And yes, I've been through kata/forms in TKD and also Shaolin Kung-Fu ( a little), but you've never sparred hard for KO's as apart of training on a regular basis, due ot fear.


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## FriedRice (Oct 4, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I like the idea of sparring at about 50% max.  You can still get a sense of timing and feel and not get banged up. Sure, sparring hard is going to toughen someone up real fast, but it comes with a price, one I'm not willing to pay.
> 
> MMA will always produce the best fighters.  It's no contest they have it down to a science and the pressure testing, conditioning and training is second to none.  These guys are being paid to take a beating.



I usually spar at 20-50% power.  Against beginners, I tell them to go at 100% and try to KO me while I'll stay at touch sparring only (1-2% power).  That's how I stay sharp. 

But once in a while I do want to go hard and hurt someone.


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## FriedRice (Oct 4, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree sometimes you need a higher level of intensity just to see if you trust your techniques as much as you think you do.  A higher intensity level will erase all doubts about what you think you can do.



Do you mean higher intensity, with the matching of power? Like going from 35% power & speed to 70-80% power & speed?


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> American Top Team, American Kickboxing Academy, Jackson-Winklejohn, Wild Card Boxing, Mayweather Boxing Club, etc....
> 
> All disagrees with you.


Do you have some links backing up the idea that all these gyms are in favor of concussions during training or giving beginners serious concussions during their first sparring session?

I know the Miletich gym was notorious for treating sparring sessions like real fights and having fighters get concussed regularly during training. I wonder if they still stick to that approach. Personally I'm more in favor of John Kavanagh's approach: "Upgrade the software without damaging the hardware." I think his fighters have shown that to be at least as effective an approach as the alternative.



FriedRice said:


> And what kind of KO? Head KO or body KO?


 Head KO (both the one I received and the one I delivered.)



FriedRice said:


> Did I even say that sparring with Pro fighters, would equate to hard sparring for concussions at all times and every time?


Nope, but the implication seemed to be that concussions should be at least a semi-regular aspect of training. Unless you were just advocating concussions for first timers, which seems more like hazing than productive training.


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## FriedRice (Oct 4, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Do you have some links backing up the idea that all these gyms are in favor of concussions during training



Wait, what? You are asking that professional gyms at the highest level, state...in print....that they "favor concussions during training"?????? C'mon man, WTH?



> or giving beginners serious concussions during their first sparring session?



And you want this in print too? LOL.  And even though I didn't say BEGINNERS spar hard, in my post....but I guess you've never trained at an old school Boxing gym. 



> I know the Miletich gym was notorious for treating sparring sessions like real fights and having fighters get concussed regularly during training. I wonder if they still stick to that approach. Personally I'm more in favor of John Kavanagh's approach: "Upgrade the software without damaging the hardware." I think his fighters have shown that to be at least as effective an approach as the alternative.



I'm not sure about Miletich's gym now neither. They seemed to have become much less significant since their hayday back then. While all the gyms I listed, are known for going hard. There are quite a few videos on YouTube. 

Like I said, I agree with your,  opinion, on how hard to spar which is basically Kavangh's model that I agree with.....but I'm not going to tell top gyms of the world that produces champions, that they're wrong when it is working for them for 10+ years now.



> Head KO (both the one I received and the one I delivered.)



Nice.



> Nope, but the implication seemed to be that concussions should be at least a semi-regular aspect of training. Unless you were just advocating concussions for first timers, which seems more like hazing than productive training.



Nope, I didn't mean to say any of this. Maybe you just misunderstood and/or I wasn't clear enough, so my bad. But the hazing DOES HAPPEN, since you brought it up....especially in old school Boxing gyms.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2018)

There is an interesting conundrum for martial artists. Training with greater realism, fewer restrictions, higher intensity and contact levels can definitely lead to a higher degree of combative skill and martial understanding.

On the other hand, many of us see the martial arts as a vehicle for self-protection. If you damage yourself more in training than a theoretical real world assailant would be likely to, have you really protected yourself? At a certain point it's almost like protecting yourself from financial scammers by locking all your money in a safe and then dropping the safe into the bottom of the ocean.

Every martial artist has to decide for themselves where they draw that line.

For myself I've opted to risk the occasional mild to moderate injury - bumps, bruises, a dislocated shoulder, a few broken bones, a few mild concussions spread out over years - while steering clear of anything that will produce permanent disability. I want to still be training martial arts when I am 80 years old, not trying to remember my wife's name when I'm 60 or struggling to walk without pain.

I am grateful to those who take greater risks with their bodies so that I can study what they do and what they've learned. I can watch Dog Brothers gatherings and high-level MMA fights to see what technical details their explorations have brought to light about what works under pressure.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Nope, I didn't mean to say any of this. Maybe you just misunderstood and/or I wasn't clear enough, so my bad.





FriedRice said:


> And even though I didn't say BEGINNERS spar hard, in my post



I guess I was going off the idea that someone who is having their first hard sparring session ever would still be a beginner. At what point in a student's progression do you think they should have their first hard contact sparring? How often do you think concussions should happen during fighter training?



FriedRice said:


> Wait, what? You are asking that professional gyms at the highest level, state...in print....that they "favor concussions during training"?????? C'mon man, WTH?


Is your objection to the fact that I don't automatically assume that they do or to the idea that they would publicly admit it?

I'd settle for a description of the general training environment which makes clear that the concussions happen regularly and the trainers are fine with it. There are plenty of accounts of the Miletich gym which make it clear they considered concussions to be a feature not a bug.



FriedRice said:


> but I guess you've never trained at an old school Boxing gym.


I guess my first ever boxing gym was fairly old school. They put me in the ring with someone who pushed me out of my comfort zone and hit me hard enough to make me wobbly but not really hurt me.

Since then I've trained with a couple of amateur coaches, an experienced pro coach, and one 2x world champion. The world champion does advocate for really hard sparring, but I've noticed that his priority in training students is to build a really, really strong defense first so they don't get hit very often when they get to the point of sparring hard.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Interesting. Not to brag or anything, but I can go 70-100% speed....esp. with jabs, at  a 10 year old's face and make contact with just a touch, when sparring. Ok, that was bragging....or maybe I'm just not that fast. Haven't knocked anyone out yet in the past 5 years.


For me I can't do that.  Depending on the punch that I use its like trying go 70-100% with a bat and stopping it so that it touches a child's face.  If that child steps forward when you don't expect it then you'll have a major problem.  I have 2 videos showing how my opponent did something unexpectedly which resulted in either a bad out come or a near miss where I knocked his head gear off. 

It's just not a risk I want to take to go that fast and trust that my partner wont make a mistake and move in.  I worked with another instructor who would do what you do and he was always injuring the demo student.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There is an interesting conundrum for martial artists. Training with greater realism, fewer restrictions, higher intensity and contact levels can definitely lead to a higher degree of combative skill and martial understanding.
> 
> On the other hand, many of us see the martial arts as a vehicle for self-protection. If you damage yourself more in training than a theoretical real world assailant would be likely to, have you really protected yourself? At a certain point it's almost like protecting yourself from financial scammers by locking all your money in a safe and then dropping the safe into the bottom of the ocean.
> 
> ...


Not sure why people would do professional level sparring intensity when they have no plans to compete at that level.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 4, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure why people would do professional level sparring intensity when they have no plans to compete at that level.


Most don't, but there's a huge continuum between, say, no-contact training and Dog Brothers style sparring full contact with heavy sticks and minimal protective gear. We all have to decide how good we want to be and how much risk we are willing to endure for that goal.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Do you mean higher intensity, with the matching of power? Like going from 35% power & speed to 70-80% power & speed?


Yes. That's what I'm referring to.  The way I spar is that I always drive and connect power.  I only separate speed and power in forms.  With sparring I always train the connection of power even at lower speeds because it more complicated and complex compared to everything else I do.

I know everyone is different so this just applies to me.


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## Headhunter (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Yeah I get it, you're afraid of being hit in the face for real as apart of training. Krav Maga is the right place for you.


You seem very insecure in yourself


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## pdg (Oct 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Don't want to, does not = not able to or not afraid to.
> 
> While being afraid of getting hit in the face hard = not being able to due to fear.
> 
> Therefore, a higher level of training, MMA, which you fear. While I don't fear kata, I just didn't care to waste more of my time with it. And yes, I've been through kata/forms in TKD and also Shaolin Kung-Fu ( a little), but you've never sparred hard for KO's as apart of training on a regular basis, due ot fear.



I'd really like to know exactly what qualifies you to judge what I am (or not) afraid of.

Because, y'know, that type of assumption just makes you look like a tit.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There are plenty of accounts of the Miletich gym which make it clear they considered concussions to be a feature not a bug.


I've had a concussion before.  It's  definitely not a training feature.  lol
1.  It hurt really bad.  "head hit gym floor"
2.  Kept trying to go to sleep.
3. Had periods of blacking out.
4. Threw up a lot
5. Had to go to the hospital.
6. Because it happened to me as a child, it caused trauma.   As a teen I relived the experience via a dream.  Now it's one of my strongest memories.  

I couldn't imagine having to go through some of these things multiple times throughout the year.   I think that risk would make me more agressive to the point that I would rather give my sparring partner a concussion just so I wouldn't get one.   Then again.  I'm not a professional fighter.  I can't fight in the ring if I'm always recovering from head injuries f t om training.


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## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'd really like to know exactly what qualifies you to judge what I am (or not) afraid of.
> 
> Because, y'know, that type of assumption just makes you look like a tit.



You admitted to being scared of getting CTE and concussions, duh.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> You seem very insecure in yourself



You admitted to being scared of getting CTE and concussions, so you train Krav Maga because you're afraid of the hard sparring in MMA. Just going by what you posted, babe.


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> You admitted to being scared of getting CTE and concussions, so you train Krav Maga because you're afraid of the hard sparring in MMA. Just going by what you posted, babe.


Oh go away would you. You've purposefully ignored the fact where I said I competed in full contact fighting for over 10 years. I do Krav Maga now because I think it's better than those styles get over it and get over yourself


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## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> For me I can't do that.  Depending on the punch that I use its like trying go 70-100% with a bat and stopping it so that it touches a child's face.  If that child steps forward when you don't expect it then you'll have a major problem.  I have 2 videos showing how my opponent did something unexpectedly which resulted in either a bad out come or a near miss where I knocked his head gear off.
> 
> It's just not a risk I want to take to go that fast and trust that my partner wont make a mistake and move in.  I worked with another instructor who would do what you do and he was always injuring the demo student.



True about when they walk into it, being a danger. This happens somewhat often. I haven't KO'ed a kid yet though. I spar like this against them often. The more timid/fearful kids would rather spar vs. me than other kids, because then, the shots are real and they get down. These kids would beg me to spar with them instead of sparring vs. other kids their size b/c there's no pain vs. me.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I guess I was going off the idea that someone who is having their first hard sparring session ever would still be a beginner. At what point in a student's progression do you think they should have their first hard contact sparring?



It just depends on what you define as a beginner. Someone brand new, training 3x/week can usually get their 1st fight in 6-12 months, by our standards. They're going to get some hard sparring 1 month before the fight to leave room for recovery should something bad happens. This could be their 1st hard sparring session after 5 months of training. Whether they're a beginner or intermediate, just depends on how your gym is run.



> How often do you think concussions should happen during fighter training?



It depends. Concussions have their ranges. I know my head very well, and knows when my bell has been rung light, medium, serious, etc.    I know when to quit for the day and when to quit for many months. Like I said, I subscribe to the way McGregor's camp trains....."touching butt in the park"--Nate Diaz  and you do too, hahah.  But AKA don't. Neither does TAM, ATA, Mayweather Club and probably 95% of all Boxing gyms.

I think that light concussions would be ok during fight training. But the truth is, most dudes would still not pull out of their fight, even with a serious concussion from fight camp. And usually, nobody can figure out if they're too ****ed up to 



> Is your objection to the fact that I don't automatically assume that they do or to the idea that they would publicly admit it?
> 
> I'd settle for a description of the general training environment which makes clear that the concussions happen regularly and the trainers are fine with it. There are plenty of accounts of the Miletich gym which make it clear they considered concussions to be a feature not a bug.



I remember hearing Miletich talk about this on Joe Rogan's podcast, but it would be crazy as hell for any gym to put it in print what you asked. That's like saying, please come sue us, take our business and all of our assets....should something bad happens.



> I guess my first ever boxing gym was fairly old school. They put me in the ring with someone who pushed me out of my comfort zone and hit me hard enough to make me wobbly but not really hurt me.



If he hit you hard enough to make you wobbly while you were a Beginner, then this goes against most of the things that you've been trying to tell me that shouldn't be done.

I would never hit a Beginner that hard unless I really disliked the hell out of him....and this happened about once in the last 5 years...and he was an intermediate and I only hit him with 2 hard shots that he def. felt.....because he went straight to war on me. But see? You proved my point, this common in Boxing gyms. You chose to call it "put me out of my comfort zone".....but basically, it was some dude cracking the hell out of you but stopping short of putting you down, because he's a nice guy.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Oh go away would you. You've purposefully ignored the fact where I said I competed in full contact fighting for over 10 years. I do Krav Maga now because I think it's better than those styles get over it and get over yourself



Yet you admitted to being afraid of CTE and concussions? Full contact must mean something entirely different to you then, lol.


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## pdg (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> You admitted to being scared of getting CTE and concussions, duh.



I would like you to show me, using the quote function, exactly where I said that.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> I would like you to show me, using the quote function, exactly where I said that.



I don't feel like re-reading the entire thread. 

So do you spar hard at full power for head knockouts as apart of training in whatever it is that you train?  Not all the time, but sometimes....do you?


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Yet you admitted to being afraid of CTE and concussions? Full contact must mean something entirely different to you then, lol.


Where did I say I'm scared of it boy? This was my first post on this thread.

"At the end of the day there's always going to be risks...hell there's risk of heading a football causing brain damage. But at the end of the day what's the point in worrying. It might happen it might not. There are people who smoke for 50 years and have no complications. You could get hit in the head a million times and be fine or you could get hit in the head 50 times and get it. That's life. Life isn't fair, life doesn't make sense why worry about it? I've taken a lot of punches over the years I feel fine my memories good enough I talk fine, I spell fine. Worrying isn't going to change what happens to my brain now. All worrying will do is stress me and that can make your head worse."


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Where did I say I'm scared of it boy? This was my first post on this thread.
> 
> "At the end of the day there's always going to be risks...hell there's risk of heading a football causing brain damage. But at the end of the day what's the point in worrying. It might happen it might not. There are people who smoke for 50 years and have no complications. You could get hit in the head a million times and be fine or you could get hit in the head 50 times and get it. That's life. Life isn't fair, life doesn't make sense why worry about it? I've taken a lot of punches over the years I feel fine my memories good enough I talk fine, I spell fine. Worrying isn't going to change what happens to my brain now. All worrying will do is stress me and that can make your head worse."



You're scared of CTE and concussions, are you not?


----------



## Headhunter (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> You're scared of CTE and concussions, are you not?


Go get that brain scan done buddy....you need it urgently


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## pdg (Oct 5, 2018)

@FriedRice - exactly what is funny about it?

You claimed I said something which I know I didn't, so I asked you to back up your claim, so you reply:



FriedRice said:


> I don't feel like re-reading the entire thread.
> 
> So do you spar hard at full power for head knockouts as apart of training in whatever it is that you train?  Not all the time, but sometimes....do you?



In other words, you made it up but are using the "I can't be bothered" line to try to appear nonchalant.

It's not working, it just proves you have no idea.

Oh, and doing or not doing something is no evidence of fear or lack thereof.

I do things I'm afraid of all the time - like getting up a ladder to clear gutters, I hate heights. I had injections for a tooth extraction, I hate needles. But hey, got to be done so it gets overcome.

On the other hand I don't do some things because I have no interest in doing them. I don't crochet - not through fear but through lack of interest. I don't watch celebrity big brother on TV, because it's crap and it bores me, not because I'm afraid.

So anyway, be sure to let us know when puberty kicks in for you, you might start making sense then.


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## pdg (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I don't feel like re-reading the entire thread.



Chicken.

Why are you scared of reading?

Bloody frightened wimp.


----------



## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've had a concussion before.  It's  definitely not a training feature.  lol
> 1.  It hurt really bad.  "head hit gym floor"
> 2.  Kept trying to go to sleep.
> 3. Had periods of blacking out.
> ...



There are many levels of a concussion. That sounded like a serious concussion that you sustained. 

While mild concussions can happen from light sparring at that 35% power level that you described. Like women who are weak in the trap muscle area, can get concussions from even a light-medium powered jab....causing their head to snap back violently. This happened to 2 girls that I was training to fight, and I hit them very light.

When you're head is feeling cloudy, similar to a head cold/congestion.....after some sparring, then you probably have a mild concussion and your brain is bruised, but trapped inside your skull. The cloudiness goes away as the brain swelling goes down. 

You can get concussions from jerking of the head, shaking, etc.   So pretty much, it's unavoidable in most martial arts unless you train Cardio Kickboxing like probably a lot of these dudes in here do.


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## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> Chicken.
> 
> Why are you scared of reading?
> 
> Bloody frightened wimp.



You're not that important


----------



## pdg (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> You're not that important



Keep telling yourself that.

It'll help distract you from your fear.


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## FriedRice (Oct 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> Keep telling yourself that.
> 
> It'll help distract you from your fear.



Ok, you're not that important  

you said to do it.


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## pdg (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Ok, you're not that important
> 
> you said to do it.



Carry on, I'm happy to help with distraction therapy for your insecurities.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> here are many levels of a concussion. That sounded like a serious concussion that you sustained.


Yeah it was.  I hope to never have anything like that again.  



FriedRice said:


> When you're head is feeling cloudy, similar to a head cold/congestion.....after some sparring, then you probably have a mild concussion and your brain is bruised, but trapped inside your skull. The cloudiness goes away as the brain swelling goes down.


I've never experienced those before.

I'm pretty sure I've head my brain slosh around but nothing that impaired or seriously hurt me.  I have had other head injuries in life but not related to Martial Arts.   Martial Arts is fairly safe to me compared to all the crazy stuff I used to do as a kid when I suffered head injuries.   I've literally done a complete forward roll on my bike by using my head.  I was doing some stunts one day and my back wheel pop upward causing my bike to flip forward.  I landed on top of my head and bounced off enough to flip my bike upright while I was still still on it.  

I basically did this but about 1 or 2 feet off the ground, and landed on my head, then flipped over upright while still sitting on my bike.  It's a wonder how I didn't suffer any spinal damage from that or have any skull fracture.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> You're not that important


And you’re a fool.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 7, 2018)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-*


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## lqkenpo (Oct 8, 2018)

Horses for causes people...

Im 30+ years old. Done MA for 25 years. I have done American Kenpo, BJJ and a bit of MMA. At my stage in my life i have a wife and a 17 month old. I don't really feel like getting banged up and having full contact sparring sessions like in MMA. Also i do MA part time. It is not my job i take no money from it and don't fancy turning up to work with black eyes etc lol. So i stick to Kenpo, does it have all the answers unquestionably no but i supplement with training i feel works with it.

MMA to *me* is more a young mans game and full credit to them. Do i want to get in a ring and prove myself, maybe sometimes but i also feel i have a greater responsibility and don't feel like i need to be in the squared circle in a proving ground. But you know the consequences of doing MMA and CTE is prevalent and will only continue, you signed the Ts & Cs / waiver you KNOW what your getting in to and its YOUR choice.

Adjust you training to what you, your training partner but more importantly what your instructors says to go for. Want to go 70% in MMA then great find someone who works at that level. Getting older and your backs jacked up and you just love MA and want to keep your hand in then fine go somewhere that goes 20%. The point is no one is right or wrong here.


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## Headhunter (Oct 8, 2018)

lqkenpo said:


> Horses for causes people...
> 
> Im 30+ years old. Done MA for 25 years. I have done American Kenpo, BJJ and a bit of MMA. At my stage in my life i have a wife and a 17 month old. I don't really feel like getting banged up and having full contact sparring sessions like in MMA. Also i do MA part time. It is not my job i take no money from it and don't fancy turning up to work with black eyes etc lol. So i stick to Kenpo, does it have all the answers unquestionably no but i supplement with training i feel works with it.
> 
> ...


Exactly I stopped fighting full contact when my first child was born. I realised I wanna be around to play with my kids and go places and not be shuffling around barely able to talk. Fact is I made absolutely no money from any fight I competed in. I must've had about 30 matches in my life and never mind a cent. What's the point in taking the risk for no money so I just enjoy the physical benefits


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> Carry on, I'm happy to help with distraction therapy for your insecurities.



need some preparation-H?


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> need some preparation-H?



Not as much as you need a pair of Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses so that you can face going back to quote my posts.


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah it was.  I hope to never have anything like that again.
> I've never experienced those before.



Me neither. It was really freaky to experience like 90% of all the symptoms listed on medical sites. A really freaky one was to have fits of rage, and this was over something so minor. 



> I'm pretty sure I've head my brain slosh around but nothing that impaired or seriously hurt me.  I have had other head injuries in life but not related to Martial Arts.   Martial Arts is fairly safe to me compared to all the crazy stuff I used to do as a kid when I suffered head injuries.   I've literally done a complete forward roll on my bike by using my head.  I was doing some stunts one day and my back wheel pop upward causing my bike to flip forward.  I landed on top of my head and bounced off enough to flip my bike upright while I was still still on it.
> 
> I basically did this but about 1 or 2 feet off the ground, and landed on my head, then flipped over upright while still sitting on my bike.  It's a wonder how I didn't suffer any spinal damage from that or have any skull fracture.



Martial Arts is probably not that dangerous for you now is because you've mastered your style and therefore, rarely get hit in the head, nor often hard....as that's not how you run your program. I'm in the same boat and dudes rarely can touch my head. And when I'm up against someone who can clean my clock, and we're going hard... then I usually know when to stop and/or surrender b/c I don't want a serious concussion. I still enjoy getting down and spar hard once in a while, and do get mild concussions but they're manageable and just consider it as apart of the risks.


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> I usually know when to stop and/or surrender b/c I don't want a serious concussion.



So, is that you admitting you're scared of getting a serious concussion?

Certainly looks like it to me.

And in a much clearer fashion than anything I've said about it.


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> So, is that you admitting you're scared of getting a serious concussion?
> 
> Certainly looks like it to me.
> 
> And in a much clearer fashion than anything I've said about it.



Yeah, most of the time when I spar hard vs. high level pro fighters up to UFC fighters, of course I'm scared of them.  But the big difference being, you're scared of any and all, hard sparring and never dared to


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> Not as much as you need a pair of Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses so that you can face going back to quote my posts.



You're trying so hard now. Did that cut too deep?


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> you're scared of any and all, hard sparring and never dared to



Citation required.


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> Citation required.



Have you ever sparred hard before, with full, mutual agreements...that you and your partner, will be trying to KO each other with full power in a timed round?


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Have you ever sparred hard before, with full, mutual agreements...that you and your partner, will be trying to KO each other with full power in a timed round?



I could say yes, I could say no. It's really not relevant.

I can absolutely state that it holds no appeal for me.

That doesn't mean I'm scared to - which appears to be something you struggle to process.

Not interested does not equal afraid.

If I was afraid, I'd not be afraid to admit it. I'm scared of heights. Woop, so what? I don't like aeroplanes (but oddly, helicopters I'm fine with). Oh noes.


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I could say yes, I could say no. It's really not relevant.
> 
> I can absolutely state that it holds no appeal for me.
> 
> ...




The difference being, you don't tout yourself as some expert of feats pertaining to heights. Too easy.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 8, 2018)

lqkenpo said:


> Horses for causes people...
> 
> Im 30+ years old. Done MA for 25 years. I have done American Kenpo, BJJ and a bit of MMA. At my stage in my life i have a wife and a 17 month old. I don't really feel like getting banged up and having full contact sparring sessions like in MMA. Also i do MA part time. It is not my job i take no money from it and don't fancy turning up to work with black eyes etc lol. So i stick to Kenpo, does it have all the answers unquestionably no but i supplement with training i feel works with it.
> 
> ...



*Absolutely!*  You have to adjust your training to your needs.  In my case I have to be incredibly fit for work.  My work requires that I be able to handle individuals and restrain them when needed.  So I have to be fit for work but I also have to be uninjured to do my work.  If my training injures me then I cannot work.  So I have to balance training so that it actually helps me at work and I am uninjured so that I can complete my daily tasks.  Everyone has to take in their priorities and train accordingly!


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> The difference being, you don't tout yourself as some expert of feats pertaining to heights. Too easy.



I don't tout myself as a ktfo fighting expert either.

Still doesn't mean I'm scared of it, which is what you accused me of.

Doesn't mean I'm incapable of it either.


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I don't tout myself as a ktfo fighting expert either.
> 
> Still doesn't mean I'm scared of it, which is what you accused me of.



But what you claim to train is/are Martial Arts, which at the highest level is to knock someone the **** out, by really doing so. So your sparring level would be somewhere at pretend striking and up to light contact to not risk CTE and concussions.



> Doesn't mean I'm incapable of it either.



You never tried it though, because you admitted to being scared of  getting concussions & CTE. So it's all theory in your case.


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> So your sparring level would be somewhere at pretend striking and up to light contact to not risk CTE and concussions.



No, actually it's not "up to light contact".

There's a large spectrum of contact between "light" and "heavy".

But you wouldn't understand.



FriedRice said:


> You never tried it though, because you admitted to being scared of getting concussions & CTE.



No, I didn't admit any such thing.

Which you actually know, evidenced by your refusal to quote where I made this statement.


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> No, actually it's not "up to light contact".
> 
> There's a large spectrum of contact between "light" and "heavy".
> 
> But you wouldn't understand.



But if you're scared of CTE and concussions, then your heavy is not the same as my heavy.




> No, I didn't admit any such thing.
> 
> Which you actually know, evidenced by your refusal to quote where I made this statement.



Have you ever agreed to spar at full power, with timed rounds for knockouts before? If yes, more than 20 times or less?


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> But if you're scared of CTE and concussions, then your heavy is not the same as my heavy.



I never said I was scared.

Do you need it written in crayon to understand?

And how does it make your heavy different to mine anyway? 

I said there's stuff between light and heavy - it's not a binary option.



FriedRice said:


> Have you ever agreed to spar at full power, with timed rounds for knockouts before? If yes, more than 20 times or less?



That holds absolutely no relevance whatsoever to being scared or not.



I'm having difficulty comprehending how you can be quite so thick as to not understand these simple statements.

The only thing I can think is that you're doing it for an argument, because surely nobody is quite that stupid.


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## FriedRice (Oct 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I never said I was scared.
> 
> Do you need it written in crayon to understand?
> 
> ...



Have you ever agreed to spar at full power, with timed rounds for knockouts before? If yes, more than 20 times or less?


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## pdg (Oct 8, 2018)

You need to change your avatar to a pigeon.

Because trying to discuss anything with you is like playing chess with one.


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## geezer (Oct 8, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Have you ever agreed to spar at full power, with timed rounds for knockouts before? If yes, more than 20 times or less?



Don't know about the guy you want to argue with, "pdg", but _I'll _gladly answer you. _No_.

When I was young, I got in a few fights, and did some medium contact sparring, but I never boxed, and never went to a boxing or kickboxing gym (I use those examples since that was in the 60s and 70s before UFC was around). Now, in my 60s with joint issues, and more recently some concerns about my eyes, full contact training would be idiotic. So, I'm quite content with training at a lighter, more healthful pace that my body can sustain ...even if it won't prepare me for the rigors of all out fighting.

Also, after seeing some people I care for succumb to dementia, and eventually die from it, I do find the effects of CTE a concern. If it doesn't bother _you_, that's your business. But that doesn't make you braver or better than anyone else. In fact the way the way you have been expressing yourself and have been going after "pdg" hasn't gotten you many fans here. Just thought I'd share that in case you haven't noticed on your own. That's all, ...carry on.


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## Headhunter (Oct 9, 2018)

geezer said:


> Don't know about the guy you want to argue with, "pdg", but _I'll _gladly answer you. _No_.
> 
> When I was young, I got in a few fights, and did some medium contact sparring, but I never boxed, and never went to a boxing or kickboxing gym (I use those examples since that was in the 60s and 70s before UFC was around). Now, in my 60s with joint issues, and more recently some concerns about my eyes, full contact training would be idiotic. So, I'm quite content with training at a lighter, more healthful pace that my body can sustain ...even if it won't prepare me for the rigors of all out fighting.
> 
> Also, after seeing some people I care for succumb to dementia, and eventually die from it, I do find the effects of CTE a concern. If it doesn't bother _you_, that's your business. But that doesn't make you braver or better than anyone else. In fact the way the way you have been expressing yourself and have been going after "pdg" hasn't gotten you many fans here. Just thought I'd share that in case you haven't noticed on your own. That's all, ...carry on.


Agreed. I have done a lot of full contact stuff and frankly I'm very lucky I've never experienced any issues from it. I competed for fun back then and never sparred like an idiot. Now I have 0 interest in fighting full contact. I probably still could if I really wanted to but I'm just not interested I'm not going to get smashed around just to puff my chest out and tell everyone how tough I am because of it. I'm confident in myself to not need to prove myself to anyone. I don't train kickboxing much anymore. I do it once a week in a club which is mainly pad work. It's run by a former fighter but it's not a fight gym everyone there just wants to train not fight. Would training there get me ready to step in the ring probably not but who cares. I'm still training and staying healthy better than sitting at home doing nothing


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## pdg (Oct 9, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Have you ever agreed to spar at full power, with timed rounds for knockouts before? If yes, more than 20 times or less?



If I say yes, you'll say "but you're scared to do it now".

If I say no, you'll say "because you're scared".


What you just can't wrap your tiny mind around is that being "scared" doesn't enter into it.

And as I'm not scared, no, I haven't. Because (again) it holds no appeal for me.


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## Buka (Oct 9, 2018)

[QUOTE="FriedRice, post: 1928922, member: 24070"

Now on the other hand, I agree with you when it comes to what I'd subject myself to and what I'd subject my students to...in terms of such head trauma as apart of fight training...[/QUOTE] 

You teach? Straight fighting, or Martial Arts?


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## FriedRice (Oct 9, 2018)

Buka said:


> [QUOTE="FriedRice, post: 1928922, member: 24070"
> 
> You teach? Straight fighting, or Martial Arts?



Yea, little kids and adults, mostly Muay Thai with grappling.  From complete beginners....to just for fitness...to light sparring (because they're scared of hard sparring).....to medium sparring....to hard sparring...to the highest level = fighter's training.


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## FriedRice (Oct 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> If I say yes, you'll say "but you're scared to do it now".
> 
> If I say no, you'll say "because you're scared".
> 
> ...



sounds like you're scared of answering the question, also.


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## FriedRice (Oct 9, 2018)

geezer said:


> Don't know about the guy you want to argue with, "pdg", but _I'll _gladly answer you. _No_.
> 
> When I was young, I got in a few fights, and did some medium contact sparring, but I never boxed, and never went to a boxing or kickboxing gym (I use those examples since that was in the 60s and 70s before UFC was around). Now, in my 60s with joint issues, and more recently some concerns about my eyes, full contact training would be idiotic. So, I'm quite content with training at a lighter, more healthful pace that my body can sustain ...even if it won't prepare me for the rigors of all out fighting.



I have no argument against this. I probably wouldn't be sparring hard in my 60's neither. The difference between you and the other guy is that you're not afraid to admit to it.  



> Also, after seeing some people I care for succumb to dementia, and eventually die from it, I do find the effects of CTE a concern. If it doesn't bother _you_, that's your business. But that doesn't make you braver or better than anyone else. In fact the way the way you have been expressing yourself and have been going after "pdg" hasn't gotten you many fans here. Just thought I'd share that in case you haven't noticed on your own. That's all, ...carry on.



Nah, I don't need any internet fans really. But I would disagree with you here that it does make me braver and better, because I can do something that can't and are are fearful of. You don't think that there's plenty of fear when preparing for that very 1st fight in the ring.....for months, leading all the way up to that exact moment when you walk into the ring and waiting for the bell?  Or do you not think that there are differences between someone who enlists in the Marines during the Vietnam War vs. the guy that got drafted or the one who got daddy to pull some strings to get him into the National Guard? After all, they're all soldiers aren't they?  All equally brave?  All heroes of the same degree?


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## pdg (Oct 9, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> sounds like you're scared of answering the question, also.





FriedRice said:


> The difference between you and the other guy is that you're not afraid to admit to it.



Looks like you didn't read the whole thing.


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## Headhunter (Oct 9, 2018)

This is getting beyond stupid now. People can train how they want to. Just because they don't spar hard doesn't mean they're scared of it. Even if they are scared of it....so what? It's not anyone's business what anyone else does with their time. If you want to spar hard and get concussions good on you that's your business, if someone wants to spar light and not spar at all then good on them to


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## FriedRice (Oct 9, 2018)

pdg said:


> Looks like you didn't read the whole thing.



Trying hard to not answer?


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## FriedRice (Oct 9, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> This is getting beyond stupid now. People can train how they want to. Just because they don't spar hard doesn't mean they're scared of it. Even if they are scared of it....so what? It's not anyone's business what anyone else does with their time. If you want to spar hard and get concussions good on you that's your business, if someone wants to spar light and not spar at all then good on them to



Then why do you care so much that I think you're scared of hard sparring?


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## Headhunter (Oct 9, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Then why do you care so much that I think you're scared of hard sparring?


I don't your opinion means nothing to me you're just acting stupid and insulting people for no reason. Now I have no desire to talk to you anymore so I'm putting you on ignore because you're just repeating yourself every time so I'm not missing anything from you


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## pdg (Oct 9, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Trying hard to not answer?



Apparently, you're still scared of reading.


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## FriedRice (Oct 9, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> I don't your opinion means nothing to me you're just acting stupid and insulting people for no reason. Now I have no desire to talk to you anymore so I'm putting you on ignore because you're just repeating yourself every time so I'm not missing anything from you



You care so much that you keep making excuses and making insults towards me and therefore, you're this exact, "stupid" person that you're complaining about, who's a hypocrite.


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## geezer (Oct 9, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> .... Or do you not think that there are differences between someone who enlists in the Marines during the Vietnam War vs. the guy that got drafted or the one who got daddy to pull some strings to get him into the National Guard? After all, they're all soldiers aren't they?  All equally brave?  All heroes of the same degree?



Don't want to get into politics, but since you brought up the war in 'Nam (which I was just barely young enough to miss, thank God), you could be brave and go, or brave and_ not_ go, _depending on your beliefs._ Muhammed Ali was a smart, gutsy guy and brave in the ring, but he chose jail over going to 'Nam. Was he braver or less brave than those who went? I don't know.


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## FriedRice (Oct 9, 2018)

geezer said:


> Don't want to get into politics, but since you brought up the war in 'Nam (which I was just barely young enough to miss, thank God), you could be brave and go, or brave and_ not_ go, _depending on your beliefs._ Muhammed Ali was a smart, gutsy guy and brave in the ring, but he chose jail over going to 'Nam. Was he braver or less brave than those who went? I don't know.



Since you're splicing my analogy under the microscope, and that was pretty good, BTW.....then let me add in that this would be from a perspective of a gung-ho, Military family with a long *** military tradition....like Lt. Dan's family in Forest Gump or something   

But let's be real. There's a real reason why many martial artists don't dare fight full contact for KO's in timed rounds fights....and I'm not talking about the old guys....but when was the last time some 16-20 year old kid was all worried about CTE's and concussions when they turn 50..... that they wouldn't pursue certain sports to its fullest?  While FEAR, is usually the main reason. I've seen so many people fold under a beatdown and never come back. Whenever there's sparring, most would leave early. The sparring class is usually 10% of the class. And this is in a Muay Thai/MMA gym too...and not necessarily hard sparring, just medium (that could spike to hard once in a while).


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## pdg (Oct 9, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> and not necessarily hard sparring, just medium



According to you, there is no medium.

If you're not going for full knock out every time, then:



FriedRice said:


> at the highest level is to knock someone the **** out, by really doing so. So your sparring level would be somewhere at pretend striking and up to light contact to not risk CTE and concussions.



And just for fun - the only sparring session I've deliberately missed was when I got a cracked rib in the "pretend striking" the night before.


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## FriedRice (Oct 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> According to you, there is no medium.
> 
> If you're not going for full knock out every time, then:



Reading comprehension should be your friend.



> And just for fun - the only sparring session I've deliberately missed was when I got a cracked rib in the "pretend striking" the night before.



Probably osteoporosis, you should get that checked out quick, being old and all.


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