# Toes breaking more than is normal?



## rozow (Jun 29, 2022)

Hi guys,

I recently started training Brazilian jiu-jitsu after ten years training karate/mma.

In the last 4 weeks at jui juitsu Iv managed to break 2 toes, the little one on one foot and the middle one on the other.

In my ten years of karate we have rolled a lot and Iv only broken a toe once, so I'm wondering if this is unusual?

I am a bodybuilder and powerlifter as well and I have heard excess protein and caffeine intake can result in brittle bones but I wasn't sure if this holds any truth?



Anyway, I can live with broken toes, Iv continued my training, lifting etc. but I'm just curious if this is normal for bjj practitioners or if I might want to investigate it.

Thanks! ??


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 29, 2022)

Not normal in my experience. Haven't broken a toe and can't remember any of the people i train with breaking one either (though it's possible I've forgotten). 

Is anyone else in your dojo breaking toes or is it just you?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 29, 2022)

That's not normal at all. I've been training BJJ for 22 years. I've never come close to breaking a toe and I've never witnessed anyone else breaking one. I have some vague memory that I might have heard about someone breaking a toe once, but that's about it. If you've broken two different toes in one month, then I would be concerned that either you are doing something wrong or that you have some sort of pre-existing condition which should be checked out.

It's also possible that you just had the remarkably bad luck to have two unlikely accidents in a row, but I would take the time to investigate in case it's more than that.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2022)

Accidental bone breaking isn't normal.  There may be a structural weakness in the bone.  My pinky finger has a hollow bone so, if I'm not careful enough then I'll break it.  One day I'll get it fixed.  I just don't know when.  I can't imagine having a hollow bone being a good thing as I age.


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## Buka (Jun 29, 2022)

Welcome to MartialTalk, Rozow.

I've broken a few toes over the years, but from hitting elbows while hard kicking. Never broke one grappling, though.

Maybe ask your instructor or some of the high belts there.


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## Damien (Jun 29, 2022)

rozow said:


> I am a bodybuilder and powerlifter as well and I have heard excess protein and caffeine intake can result in brittle bones but I wasn't sure if this holds any truth?


This is definitely not true. There are lots of claims about excess protein consumption being bad for you, it's all BS. The only downside to eating more than your needs are you waste money (protein sources are generally expensive), you may under eat on other macros if you maintain a calorie balance, and you're digestion might suffer a bit. It's not going to do any long term damage though.

As for caffeine, I haven't looked at extensive research on its consumption, but there are people out there that drink a litres of coffee a day, and they're not walking around like they are made of glass. I can't imagine what the mechanism for caffeine reducing bone elasticity would be either, so likely also not true.

I hope you don't suffer any more injuries!


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 29, 2022)

Damien said:


> This is definitely not true. There are lots of claims about excess protein consumption being bad for you, it's all BS.











						The Effects of High-Protein Diets on Kidney Health and Longevity - PubMed
					

Although high-protein diets continue to be popular for weight loss and type 2 diabetes, evidence suggests that worsening renal function may occur in individuals with-and perhaps without-impaired kidney function. High dietary protein intake can cause intraglomerular hypertension, which may result...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				












						Dietary protein intake and renal function
					

Recent trends in weight loss diets have led to a substantial increase in protein intake by individuals. As a result, the safety of habitually consuming dietary protein in excess of recommended intakes has been questioned. In particular, there is concern ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				












						High-protein diet is bad for kidney health: unleashing the taboo
					

How often have you been told to eat more protein and less carbohydrates to stay healthy? This is not an emerging food culture but rather a prevailing dogma in o




					academic.oup.com
				












						High-Protein Diet and Kidney Problems
					

Too much protein can be taxing on the kidneys




					health.clevelandclinic.org
				












						Nutrition and Early Kidney Disease (Stages 1–4)
					

Nutrition and Kidney Disease Stages 1-4. How do you handle nutrition for early stage kidney disease? Learn about diet, nutrition, and about controlling potassium, protein, calcium, phosphorus, and sodium.




					www.kidney.org
				












						Are high-protein diets safe?
					

Considering a high-protein diet for weight loss? Understand the precautions first.




					www.mayoclinic.org
				




Looks like people with actual knowledge disagree with your statement.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The Effects of High-Protein Diets on Kidney Health and Longevity - PubMed
> 
> 
> Although high-protein diets continue to be popular for weight loss and type 2 diabetes, evidence suggests that worsening renal function may occur in individuals with-and perhaps without-impaired kidney function. High dietary protein intake can cause intraglomerular hypertension, which may result...
> ...


Good thing my body rejects high protein.


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## Damien (Jun 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The Effects of High-Protein Diets on Kidney Health and Longevity - PubMed
> 
> 
> Although high-protein diets continue to be popular for weight loss and type 2 diabetes, evidence suggests that worsening renal function may occur in individuals with-and perhaps without-impaired kidney function. High dietary protein intake can cause intraglomerular hypertension, which may result...
> ...


It is indeed a very common claim that excess protein consumption causes problems with kidneys. This is one of those findings that gets taken completely out of context and blown out of all proportion. 

If you have some form of kidney problem, then consuming large amounts of protein can be bad for you. If you have normal functioning kidneys however there is no problem; this has been demonstrated time and again by scientific studies looking into high protein diets. 

If you actually read the abstracts of the top three links you posted which are scientific papers, you will see that they say in the context of those with diseased kidneys or at high risk of kidney disease. If you are going to cite evidence, you need to actually look at it first, this is how claims like this gain legs in the first place. To paraphrase, it looks like people who actually know how to read scientific papers disagree with your statement.

It's a bit like sugar. It's not inherently bad for you. Such statements assume you are healthy. If you've got diabetes, you need to be more aware of what you consume.

Fat is not inherently bad for you. If you have digestive issues, you need to be more aware of what you consume.


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## MR. SERNA (Jun 29, 2022)

rozow said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I recently started training Brazilian jiu-jitsu after ten years training karate/mma.
> 
> ...


When I trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I began wrapping my toes. Later I wore my kung-fu slippers to protect my feet. My instructor didn't have a problem with my shoes to protect my feet. As I was training and I had no intention of competing outside the school.

Mr. Serna


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## Gyakuto (Jul 7, 2022)

When you say ‘broken’ are the phalanges actually fractured or rather, dislocated? 

If it’s the former, then you might want ask a medical practitioner to look at your blood calcium /calcitonin levels. Perhaps even a bone density assessment might be in order.

If they’re _dislocated_ then you may want to look at how you position your feet/toes as you roll around on the floor.


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## geezer (Jul 8, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> When I trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I began wrapping my toes. Later I wore my kung-fu slippers to protect my feet. My instructor didn't have a problem with my shoes to protect my feet. As I was training and I had no intention of competing outside the school.
> 
> Mr. Serna


Is it common for BJJ instructors to allow appropriate _shoes_ on the mat? I thought you had to train barefoot. 

One of the reasons I never tried BJJ was that I have seriously messed up feet, fused ankles and super stiff-jointed toes that have a very limited range of movement. If I'd thought they might let me train with my wrestling shoes I would have had one less excuse!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 8, 2022)

geezer said:


> Is it common for BJJ instructors to allow appropriate _shoes_ on the mat? I thought you had to train barefoot.
> 
> One of the reasons I never tried BJJ was that I have seriously messed up feet, fused ankles and super stiff-jointed toes that have a very limited range of movement. If I'd thought they might let me train with my wrestling shoes I would have had one less excuse!


I've seen people at my dojo use grappling shoes. Look pretty similar to the wrestling variety-not everyone is willing to risk rugburn on their feet when they could prevent it


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## MR. SERNA (Jul 8, 2022)

geezer said:


> Is it common for BJJ instructors to allow appropriate _shoes_ on the mat? I thought you had to train barefoot.
> 
> One of the reasons I never tried BJJ was that I have seriously messed up feet, fused ankles and super stiff-jointed toes that have a very limited range of movement. If I'd thought they might let me train with my wrestling shoes I would have had one less excuse!


I understand how feet problems can effect your training. 

Mr. Serna


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 8, 2022)

geezer said:


> Is it common for BJJ instructors to allow appropriate _shoes_ on the mat? I thought you had to train barefoot.
> 
> One of the reasons I never tried BJJ was that I have seriously messed up feet, fused ankles and super stiff-jointed toes that have a very limited range of movement. If I'd thought they might let me train with my wrestling shoes I would have had one less excuse!


Depends on the school. Some places will allow dedicated wrestling shoes that you only wear on the mat.


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## MR. SERNA (Jul 8, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Depends on the school. Some places will allow dedicated wrestling shoes that you only wear on the mat.


Yes, the shoes I wore were dedicated slippers made of kid leather with a cotton sole. They were tight fitting and formed to my feet. I only wore them at school never anywhere else.

I take great care of my feet. My front kicks using the ball of foot, side kick utilizing the edge of my heel. Back kicks I use the heel of my foot. I use the arch of my foot for spinning side kick or inside kicks. The only time the toe is used is in the rear high kick to the throat.

When kicking the groin we kicked the taint area with the ball of the foot or heel from behind. Driving energy into the lower body cavity attacking the organs inside. The testicular attack requires the arch of the foot.

My respect fo my BJJ practitioners, who are highly skilled with foot techniques I believe saved me from injury.

Mr. Serna


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## jks9199 (Jul 10, 2022)

Might be important to look at how they're breaking... Most of the broken toes I've heard of in wrestling, bjj, and similar activities are the result of toes getting caught in gaps or holes on the mats, or getting caught in weird positions and basically rolled over -- with a huge bias towards the former.


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## Steve (Jul 10, 2022)

Does your school train on harder judo style mats or softer wrestling mats?  I broke my little toes several times before my school purchased better mats. They looks like little Vienna sausages now they been broken so many times. 😅


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## Darren (Oct 16, 2022)

Wow!! I thought broken bones(not to many though) comes with training! Broke one toe once always always and always pull those toes back when throwing a kick!! One hole in my shin bone from someone doing leg destructions! Never seen the dude after that and I was watching for him to come back!! But reading through the forum on this subject now know those injuries could have been avoided!!!


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## Gyakuto (Oct 16, 2022)

Once you have an moderate /severe injury and it ‘heals’, you are _never quite_ the same again, especially if it requires medical intervention to fix it. Plating, pinning, external fixation, grafts, ligamental tears…never the same and there’s always some sort of pain which tends to get worse with age! Now if it’s an accident, then it cannot have been avoided, but if you have _put yourself_ in the line of unreasonable risk (the definition of which varies from person-to-person) then _in tuo capite fiat_!


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## Darren (Oct 16, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Once you have an moderate /severe injury and it ‘heals’, you are _never quite_ the same again, especially if it requires medical intervention to fix it. Plating, pinning, external fixation, grafts, ligamental tears…never the same and there’s always some sort of pain which tends to get worse with age! Now if it’s an accident, then it cannot have been avoided, but if you have _put yourself_ in the line of unreasonable risk (the definition of which varies from person-to-person) then _in tuo capite fiat_!


Ya can still see the break in my toe! Guess it’s so odd I like to play with it every now and again. Looks very funny and it’s weird to just grab the top of it and bend it backwards!!!!  Does not hurt any!!!  Now the hole in my shin I don’t touch nor look at it that’s beyond weird!!!!!!


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## Gyakuto (Oct 16, 2022)

Darren said:


> Ya can still see the break in my toe! Guess it’s so odd I like to play with it every now and again. Looks very funny and it’s weird to just grab the top of it and bend it backwards!!!!  Does not hurt any!!!  Now the hole in my shin I don’t touch nor look at it that’s beyond weird!!!!!!


Ouchie! I was eating when I read that 🤢


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## Darren (Oct 16, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Ouchie! I was eating when I read that 🤢


Sorry man! Stupid vet shows always get me like that!!!


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## tkdroamer (Oct 17, 2022)

rozow said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I recently started training Brazilian jiu-jitsu after ten years training karate/mma.
> 
> ...


Could you give more detail on exactly How the toes were broken?


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## tkdroamer (Oct 17, 2022)

Buka said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk, Rozow.
> 
> I've broken a few toes over the years, but from hitting elbows while hard kicking. Never broke one grappling, though.
> 
> Maybe ask your instructor or some of the high belts there.


I was going to mention the same. I have rather gnarly big toes from repeated jamming and breaking. It was always from an errant kick or really hard contact. Same goes for my thumbs (my own fault).

I have never heard of a twisting break of a toe.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 17, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> I was going to mention the same. I have rather gnarly big toes from repeated jamming and breaking. It was always from an errant kick or really hard contact. Same goes for my thumbs (my own fault).
> 
> I have never heard of a twisting break of a toe.





tkdroamer said:


> Could you give more detail on exactly How the toes were broken?


Yeah, Hallow-bleeding’-een is just around the corner 😳


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## Darren (Oct 17, 2022)

rozow said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I recently started training Brazilian jiu-jitsu after ten years training karate/mma.
> 
> ...


Given my no experience in BJJ keep your feet on there sides as much as you can, never ever have your toes where the are resting by there selfs on the surface use the balls of your feet when pushing! Of course I am wrong and I have had only four classes so far!! But there are people on here that have more experience then me so listen to them!!!!!!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 17, 2022)

Damien said:


> This is definitely not true. There are lots of claims about excess protein consumption being bad for you, it's all BS. The only downside to eating more than your needs are you waste money (protein sources are generally expensive), you may under eat on other macros if you maintain a calorie balance, and you're digestion might suffer a bit. It's not going to do any long term damage though.
> 
> As for caffeine, I haven't looked at extensive research on its consumption, but there are people out there that drink a litres of coffee a day, and they're not walking around like they are made of glass. I can't imagine what the mechanism for caffeine reducing bone elasticity would be either, so likely also not true.
> 
> I hope you don't suffer any more injuries!


High protein diets can damage kidneys.


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## Damien (Oct 18, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> High protein diets can damage kidneys.


No they can't. It's one of the many nutrition myths out there built on journalists reading the title of studies and never even going as far as the abstract, let alone the paper. To quote myself from earlier in the thread...


Damien said:


> It is indeed a very common claim that excess protein consumption causes problems with kidneys. This is one of those findings that gets taken completely out of context and blown out of all proportion.
> 
> If you have some form of kidney problem, then consuming large amounts of protein can be bad for you. If you have normal functioning kidneys however there is no problem; this has been demonstrated time and again by scientific studies looking into high protein diets.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 18, 2022)

Yes it is a myth if you don't have existing renal dysfunction.









						Controversies surrounding high-protein diet intake: satiating effect and kidney and bone health - PubMed
					

Long-term consumption of a high-protein diet could be linked with metabolic and clinical problems, such as loss of bone mass and renal dysfunction. However, although it is well accepted that a high-protein diet may be detrimental to individuals with existing kidney dysfunction, there is little...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> I was going to mention the same. I have rather gnarly big toes from repeated jamming and breaking. It was always from an errant kick or really hard contact. Same goes for my thumbs (my own fault).
> 
> I have never heard of a twisting break of a toe.



Jigsaw mats will do it.  Or if you are being half thrown and are sort of hopping with potentially two body masses at play.

Also shoulder throws where they step on your foot.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 18, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Yes it is a myth if you don't have existing renal dysfunction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not just eat good old-fashioned well-balanced meals? You know the USDA recommendations that include protein. And get at least moderate exercise?
Fad diets come and go. Right now, high protein is popular. Give it a year and it will be bad for you.


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## Cynik75 (Oct 18, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> .... Most of the broken toes I've heard of in wrestling, bjj, and similar activities are the result of toes getting caught in gaps or holes on the mats, ...


I have broken both little toes during my first two years of bjj the same way - we trained in a place with little bit loosely placed mats and fingers got into the gaps between them.  Wrestling shoes allowed me to train  while the bones were fuseing together.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 18, 2022)

Damien said:


> No they can't. It's one of the many nutrition myths out there built on journalists reading the title of studies and never even going as far as the abstract, let alone the paper. To quote myself from earlier in the thread...


Ok I get your point. Here is where I am coming from, a patient may not know what place their renal health is in. Patients can show no dysfunction on lab tests until they are at 10% of renal function. If you are at say 11% of renal function and eat a high protein diet you can be putting yourself at risk without knowing it. Granted, this may not be the case very often. Some antibiotics can trigger kidney failure in “at risk“ individuals. My point is that most people (and their physicians) don’t have tools to accurately assess their renal health. A person may also be able to smoke without seeing any damage or deleterious effects on their lungs until it’s too late.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 18, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Yes it is a myth if you don't have existing renal dysfunction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes exactly, a person won’t know they have dysfunction until they are within around 10% of total function.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 18, 2022)

Damien said:


> No they can't. It's one of the many nutrition myths out there built on journalists reading the title of studies and never even going as far as the abstract, let alone the paper. To quote myself from earlier in the thread...


I’m really not trying to argue with you, but this just isn’t the whole story for everyone.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 18, 2022)

Damien said:


> No they can't. It's one of the many nutrition myths out there built on journalists reading the title of studies and never even going as far as the abstract, let alone the paper. To quote myself from earlier in the thread...


When you say it’s all BS that isn’t exactly true.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 18, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Yes it is a myth if you don't have existing renal dysfunction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So they can.  Interesting, I know quite a few people with kidney issues who don't know this.

Good to know, I cook for everyone I know.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 18, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> Why not just eat good old-fashioned well-balanced meals? You know the USDA recommendations that include protein. And get at least moderate exercise?
> Fad diets come and go. Right now, high protein is popular. Give it a year and it will be bad for you.


Lots of people have kidney issues for totally different reasons, plenty of which are genetic, nada to do with lifestyle.

You can do all those right things, diet exercise etc and still end up with organ issues.

For me this is enlightening, now I know to go slow on the amino acids with certain company.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 18, 2022)

What is the normal amount of broken toes?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Lots of people have kidney issues for totally different reasons, plenty of which are genetic, nada to do with lifestyle.
> 
> You can do all those right things, diet exercise etc and still end up with organ issues.
> 
> For me this is enlightening, now I know to go slow on the amino acids with certain company.


Polycystic kidney disease is a good example of losing function without symptoms.


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## tkdroamer (Oct 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Lots of people have kidney issues for totally different reasons, plenty of which are genetic, nada to do with lifestyle.
> 
> You can do all those right things, diet exercise etc and still end up with organ issues.
> 
> For me this is enlightening, now I know to go slow on the amino acids with certain company.


I agree it is person specific. 
When I was competing, amino acids were a big part of my nutrition plan. Ate them like candy it seemed.

Our son is a very fit, very active late 20-year old. Two years ago totally out of the blue he woke up very swollen. Long story short, he had/has FSGS. For a while it was a roller coaster of looking like an anorexic meth head to rather overweight. Things finally worked themselves out. He is on no medication and just watches what he eats. 
On a side note, while he was in the hospital he got c-diff. He said that was rougher than the kidney issues.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 19, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> I agree it is person specific.
> When I was competing, amino acids were a big part of my nutrition plan. Ate them like candy it seemed.
> 
> Our son is a very fit, very active late 20-year old. Two years ago totally out of the blue he woke up very swollen. Long story short, he had/has FSGS. For a while it was a roller coaster of looking like an anorexic meth head to rather overweight. Things finally worked themselves out. He is on no medication and just watches what he eats.
> On a side note, while he was in the hospital he got c-diff. He said that was rougher than the kidney issues.


C. dif can be associated with antibiotic use. Very nasty. Not my favorite thing to deal with in the operating room. It’s challenging to keep the operative field sterile during code brown.


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