# 8/12 hard and soft mantis techniques



## mantis (Oct 6, 2005)

does anyone know the 8/12 hard/soft techniques of mantis fist?
 i vaguely remember my teacher talked about them when i first start, and now i cant find material on them...
 im sure 7starMantis knows a lot about them


----------



## mantisfgtr (Oct 6, 2005)

*8 hard ways*
1. Striking downward on the opponents head.
2. Punch straight to the opponents face.
3. Employ double palm strike with forward motion after redirecting or avoiding the attack. 
4. Cross opponents arms at embow to lock and throw
5. Lean bodyweight against opponent and use infighting tactics
6. Employ a hard striking fist in an upward or downward motion
7. Sidestep to an opponents flank and use a roundhouse punch.
8. Grapple and throw an opponent.

*12 Soft ways*
1. withdraw hands when encountering a rigid movement by opponent.
2. After contact with opponents blocking arm, circle around and strike straight inward.
3. After contact with opponents blocking arm, trap it away with opposite hand, circle around it and strike straight forward.
4. reirect opponents arm downward and strike inward with the same hand using a circular motion.
5. After your straight strike is blocked by an opponents arm, hook and control using diau.
6. Move in and strike after a redirective slap block of an opponents strike.
7. Move in and strike after an opponents strike is controlled with diau.
8. Redirect or evade an opponents strike and attack from flank
9. Redirect opponents strike and strike forward with double palm.
10. redirect opponents strike upward and strike in with same hand.
11. Counter strike over an opponents striking arm.
12. Trap and strike after arm grab by opponent

I hope this helps...


----------



## mantis (Oct 7, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> *8 hard ways*
> 1. Striking downward on the opponents head.
> 2. Punch straight to the opponents face.
> 3. Employ double palm strike with forward motion after redirecting or avoiding the attack.
> ...


 you hope this helps?
 that's it.. this is all i need!
 thanks


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 7, 2005)

I would like to remind that from lineage to lineage or family to family, your going to see variations in these principles. Some ommit or add while others dont.

7sm


----------



## mantis (Oct 7, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I would like to remind that from lineage to lineage or family to family, your going to see variations in these principles. Some ommit or add while others dont.
> 
> 7sm


 since we kind of go to the same school I assume we have the same lineage, right?
 oh, it's awesome to have someone from your school but actually knowledgeable!
 so is this the same for us?


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 7, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> since we kind of go to the same school I assume we have the same lineage, right?
> oh, it's awesome to have someone from your school but actually knowledgeable!
> so is this the same for us?


 Yes, we have the same lineage. You sifu and my sifu learned from the same person. In fact, your sifu and my sifu grew up together since they were like 9 years old.

 No, this list is different from the one we list.

 7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 7, 2005)

Hey, btw. Did that book come out yet? I want to get it and add to my collection.


----------



## mantisfgtr (Oct 7, 2005)

i believe lee kam wing lists them in his book as well, however they are slightly different than what I learned. 

jfarnsworth-what book are you referring to, and what part of ohio are you in?


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 7, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> jfarnsworth-what book are you referring to, and what part of ohio are you in?


The book I was referring to... 7sm mantis mentioned a couple of months ago his instructor _(I thought his instructor) _ was putting out a book with principles in it. I can't remember the exact thread but he and I discussed different things in that particular thread. I wondered if it came out yet.  :asian: 

Oh,
I'm a little south of Mansfield.


----------



## mantis (Oct 7, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> The book I was referring to... 7sm mantis mentioned a couple of months ago his instructor _(I thought his instructor) _ was putting out a book with principles in it. I can't remember the exact thread but he and I discussed different things in that particular thread. I wondered if it came out yet. :asian:
> 
> Oh,
> I'm a little south of Mansfield.


 i believe this is the one (if it's his instructor)
http://www.ntkfe.com/open.html
 or it could be this book (not a new one though, but good one)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...3?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance
 by Lee Kam Wing


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 7, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> i believe this is the one (if it's his instructor)
> http://www.ntkfe.com/open.html


That was the book I was thinking of. I dont' want to put words in 7sm mouth but maybe that was his instructor's instructor. It was one or the other I believe.  :asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 7, 2005)

The figure on the front of the book... is that a general stance in your system? If so what is the stance called? :asian:


----------



## mantis (Oct 7, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> The figure on the front of the book... is that a general stance in your system? If so what is the stance called? :asian:


 it's called the "tiger ride stance"!


----------



## mantisfgtr (Oct 7, 2005)

not trying to be argumentative but thats not a 7* stance. That is a tiger riding or cat stance with the hand position being intercept hands. 

7* stance Sits down on the rear leg and points the toes of the other leg upward and inward with that respective leg straight.


----------



## mantisfgtr (Oct 7, 2005)

I believe after looking at the photo of the book again, the posture is mantis catches a cidada....


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 7, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> not trying to be argumentative but thats not a 7* stance. That is a tiger riding or cat stance with the hand position being intercept hands. .


I was going to ask if it was a deep cat stance. However with the hand positioning I didn't want to assume. 

The hand position a neutral position or a fighting position?


----------



## mantis (Oct 7, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> I believe after looking at the photo of the book again, the posture is mantis catches a cidada....


 well apparently you know better!
 the way he stands looks like a tiger-ride to me! 
 maybe we can as 7starmantis later
 haha


----------



## mantis (Oct 7, 2005)

. (sorry.. this post is a mistake, dunno how to delete it)


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 13, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> well apparently you know better!
> the way he stands looks like a tiger-ride to me!
> maybe we can as 7starmantis later
> haha


 Wow, somehow I missed this thread for a while, sorry guys. Yes his posture is the "Mantis Catches Cicada" which uses a cat stance or Tiger riding stance. Cat and Tiger Riding are the same thing. I believe "Cat Stance" is more of a wah lum term while "Tiger Riding" would be more 7*. 

 Mantisfighter was correct, that is not 7 Star Stance specifically, but is a stance of the 7* system. Seven Star Stance itself has the front foot on the heel not the toe.


  7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 13, 2005)

I wondered where you were  .

The posture on the book cover, is that a typical fighting stance or just "A" stance? When sparring do you mantis people spar like everyone else or attempt to create your basic hand positions and such? That particular stance would seem a little odd for fighting unless maybe it's defensive whereas you could block, parry, and/or strike from there. 

Tryin' to keep conversation.


----------



## mantisfgtr (Oct 13, 2005)

i would say one could certainly use it as a fighting stance depending on the conflict. The top of the body, in the intercept hands position is really a couple of joint locks in application... I doubt I would use it as a primary fighing stance, however given the chance, i would not pass up the opportunity to jerk mo opponent off his feet with the arm lock...


----------



## mantisfgtr (Oct 13, 2005)

i would say one could certainly use it as a fighting stance depending on the conflict. The top of the body, in the intercept hands position is really a couple of joint locks in application... I doubt I would use it as a primary fighing stance, however given the chance, i would not pass up the opportunity to jerk my opponent off his feet with the arm lock...


----------



## mantis (Oct 14, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> i would say one could certainly use it as a fighting stance depending on the conflict. The top of the body, in the intercept hands position is really a couple of joint locks in application... I doubt I would use it as a primary fighing stance, however given the chance, i would not pass up the opportunity to jerk my opponent off his feet with the arm lock...


 i was reading about 8step preying mantis today (www.8step.com) and the master there was saying they do depend on this stance as an essential fighting stance. their stances are pretty interesting and very similar to 7* mantis.
 as for the 7 starstance where you have your foot up, the one that doesnt carry weight, you use it to trap and hook peeps.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 14, 2005)

Its a fighting stance, the arm positioning is a arm bar, or joint attack, but its not neccessarily a starting or stopping position. Mantis really doesn't have a defined "fighting" position. Most the time we use cat stance it is either leading to a kick, or creating a false distance. Its used quite a bit in chin na and joint locks.

Oh, one other thing, the "mantis catches cicada" doesn't neccessarily have to applied in cat stance.

7sm


----------



## mantisfgtr (Oct 15, 2005)

7 star mantis-just curious, where did you get your seven star mantis training?


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 15, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> 7 star mantis-just curious, where did you get your seven star mantis training?


  I'm a student of Sifu Brandon Jones in Tyler, Texas. He is a student of Raymond Fogg out of Dallas.

  Mind if I ask you?

  7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 18, 2005)

What is the 7 star praying mantis? Why 7? How does this style differ from a regular praying mantis style? :asian:


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 18, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> What is the 7 star praying mantis? Why 7? How does this style differ from a regular praying mantis style? :asian:


 Well, there really is no "regular praying mantis style". There are many styles of mantis (wah lum, 7*, 8 step, Tai Chi, etc) but they all differ in some way. Some would say the difference is small, some would say its great. It all depends on how your looking at it. In contrast to other system the difference is small between the mantis styles, in contrast with a deep understanding of the principles of one mantis system, the differences can be great. As far as "regular" goes, probably the most well known is either 7* or wah lum.

 There are many tales of why the name is "7 star". Some say the mantis that the creator caught had seven "stars" on its back, probably the most accepted is that he wanted the "descendent" or those who practice the style to be as wide reaching as those who can look up and see the "big dipper". While still others interpret the 7 stars to mean "constantly moving and changing to wear down your opponent". 

  That answer your question at all?

  7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 18, 2005)

That all sounds reasonable.    :asian: 

I would like to get into the principles next.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 18, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> That all sounds reasonable.    :asian:
> 
> I would like to get into the principles next.


 You mean the differences between the principels of the mantis systems?

 I dont knwo enough about the core principels of other mantis system to really do much of it justice, I can help with 7* and maybe wah lum, but thats about it.

 7sm


----------



## mantis (Oct 18, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> That all sounds reasonable.    :asian:
> 
> I would like to get into the principles next.


 excuse my intrusion...
   but maybe this helps http://shaolin.com/n_mantis_martialarts.aspx
 i think, principles like kicking low, stayin in a very close range from your oponent, making sure you always grab the hands of the oponent before you hit, taking your oponent out of balance, keeping your center of gravity lower than your oponent, twisting your hands as you finish hitting to get out of locks... these are all mantis principles shared by all styles.
 I was told that 7* pray mantis is unique because they stand tall, meaning they dont go as low as wushu or northern shaolin mantis, and we trip as we pluck.
 maybe 7starmantis has more, or different set of principles, or he might even not agree with me at all. well, he's the man when it comes to 7*

 i wanna add some more references that i read before i joined my school:
http://authentickungfu.com/
http://www.mantiskungfu.com/


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 18, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> excuse my intrusion...
> but maybe this helps http://shaolin.com/n_mantis_martialarts.aspx
> i think, principles like kicking low, stayin in a very close range from your oponent, making sure you always grab the hands of the oponent before you hit, taking your oponent out of balance, keeping your center of gravity lower than your oponent, twisting your hands as you finish hitting to get out of locks... these are all mantis principles shared by all styles.
> I was told that 7* pray mantis is unique because they stand tall, meaning they dont go as low as wushu or northern shaolin mantis, and we trip as we pluck.
> maybe 7starmantis has more, or different set of principles, or he might even not agree with me at all. well, he's the man when it comes to 7*


 First, I wouldn't say I'm the man when it comes to 7* or mantis, or even kung fu in general!! I'm just a lowly student on my journey  But thanks :asian:

 Ok, I disagree with the presented sites discussion of 7*'s footwork, but agree with some other points. I think its important to realize that most mantis styles are going to be pretty similar. In fact, reading the list of differences from that site, I can see all of them in my training. Different styles of mantis will probably all contain the same principles, what makes them different is that one "style" may train heavily or place more importance on one (or a few) of the principles while another "style" may choose different principels for extensive training. That, in my opinion is the main differences from a general standpoint. In fact, within 7* there are many, many differences in families (or lineages). I think my lineage or family is probably very different from most 7* schools in our focus of "soft" skills, lower stances, and heavy body conditioning. That dosen't mean we ignore other principles, we just seem to really focus on these quite a bit. Jeem Lim is probably the most trained principle at our school, the ability to "stick" or stay in contact with your opponent and feel his movements from that contact.

  OK, now I'm getting off track! 

  7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 18, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> You mean the differences between the principels of the mantis systems?


I meant the ones listed above.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 18, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> i think, principles like kicking low, stayin in a very close range from your oponent, making sure you always grab the hands of the oponent before you hit, taking your oponent out of balance, keeping your center of gravity lower than your oponent, twisting your hands as you finish hitting to get out of locks... these are all mantis principles shared by all styles.


I don't know if I would necessarily group that as a principle as I would more as a saying. Good points just a different perspective. To each his own I'm just trying to get some info. from you mantis guys. I also, agree 7* star seems to be on the ball and I'm waiting for when he tells me to quit picking his brain.


----------



## mantis (Oct 18, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I don't know if I would necessarily group that as a principle as I would more as a saying. Good points just a different perspective. To each his own I'm just trying to get some info. from you mantis guys. I also, agree 7* star seems to be on the ball and I'm waiting for when he tells me to quit picking his brain.


 thank you for pointing out that im a newbie
 and rubbing it in my face  haha
 yah, i only have little experience, less than 6 months! 
 but that's what i hear in class... sorry for my intrusion again


----------



## clfsean (Oct 18, 2005)

Some friendly advice... 


Be careful with what you read on the net. There are lots who claim to know lots or everything about topics when they actually know less than a little on those very topics.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 18, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> thank you for pointing out that im a newbie
> and rubbing it in my face  haha
> yah, i only have little experience, less than 6 months!
> but that's what i hear in class... sorry for my intrusion again


  Haha, thats ok, no intrusion at all! 

 Yes, I was just about to post when I saw your reply. In my own experience, the principles tend to grow, or become more complex as my understanding and skill grows. When I was a beginner I would have sworn to you that a major principles of the mantis system is kicking low....now however (not that I'm much more knowledgeable or highly skilled) I would say its a characteristic, but not really a principle. I think one of the major problems with mantis today (and probably alot of MA styles) is people not understanding principles and trying to make them techniques. For example:
 We do a dil sau drill where we stand mirrored of each other and one person punches while the other yields, turns his body and creates a cross body chin na, or arm bar. Then, from that position, he strikes at the opponent thus allowing the opponent to do the same thing to him. This goes back and forth. This drill helps to learn Jeem Lim, or sticking. Basically feeling when your opponent lets go of your hand and "riding" his arm back into a grab of your own.
 Now, if you ask some mantis people to explain to you Jeem Lim, they will glady set you up and teach you this drill. "There, that is Jeem Lim". However, that is simply one small technque that uses the principle of Jeem Lim and help you to learn it. Jeem Lim could be done with your legs, shins, forearms, etc. Does that make any sense at all? I guess I'm trying to say that principles govern how you fight, but do not determine your technqiues per se. 
  See what you have done, I've gone off on another rabbit chase! 

 Ok, so basically I'm saying that there are both characterisitcs of mantis and principels of mantis. Take the principle of Jeem Lim (obviously one of my favorites!). OK, as a characteristic showing Jeem Lim, we see mantis people intercepting a punch and riding it back into a grab. We see mantis people intercepting a punch without force of a block and following the arm into an attack of their own. These are characteristics of that principle. However, the principle itself is not contained by those examples. We practice jeem lim drills with our feet, shins, knees, thighs, hips, buttocks, back, stomach, chest, arms, shoulders, upper back, even our head!! The principle is simply making contact, and riding their power. This could be directing it into an attack of your own, or riding their withdrawal into an attack, or a myriad of other things.

  Am I making sense?

  7sm


----------



## mantis (Oct 18, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Haha, thats ok, no intrusion at all!
> 
> Yes, I was just about to post when I saw your reply. In my own experience, the principles tend to grow, or become more complex as my understanding and skill grows. When I was a beginner I would have sworn to you that a major principles of the mantis system is kicking low....now however (not that I'm much more knowledgeable or highly skilled) I would say its a characteristic, but not really a principle. I think one of the major problems with mantis today (and probably alot of MA styles) is people not understanding principles and trying to make them techniques. For example:
> We do a dil sau drill where we stand mirrored of each other and one person punches while the other yields, turns his body and creates a cross body chin na, or arm bar. Then, from that position, he strikes at the opponent thus allowing the opponent to do the same thing to him. This goes back and forth. This drill helps to learn Jeem Lim, or sticking. Basically feeling when your opponent lets go of your hand and "riding" his arm back into a grab of your own.
> ...


 this is off topic but i wanna get it off my chest
 super-duper double props to you
 exactly
 thank you very much
 that's what you get when you dont train under the master himself. i.e. that's what you get when you train under an unexperienced black belt teacher.
 I trained under an 8-dan TKD master before I swear i learned in 2 months what I am not going to learn in 2 years learning under just a black belt instructor. i got unbelievably fit and flexible but now im only gaining FAT, no offense to my teacher i think he's a great man and a great martial artist, but I NEED TO BE TAUGHT MORE. 
 you notice that 90% of my mantis knowledge is coming from the internet. even the information my teacher told me was because i got questions from the internet and i asked! i even email those teachers i find online and ask questions. i joined this forum to ask YOU, mr. 7starmantis, questions about my school and my art!
 thanks for listening, although it's off-topic


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 18, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> 1.thank you for pointing out that im a newbie and rubbing it in my face  haha
> 2. yah, i only have little experience, less than 6 months!
> 3. but that's what i hear in class... sorry for my intrusion again


1. We are all beginners just some more advaced than others. 
2. Well you have more than I do. There isn't an animal kung-fu style around these parts... period. 
3. No intrusion. I'm actually kinda enjoying the conversation here on MT for a change. I'm the loner in here. (ducks for cover)


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 18, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> *8 hard ways*
> 1. Striking downward on the opponents head.


Alright, If I may ask... What is it or how are you striking on the opponents head? I'm visualizing maybe a roundhouse shin kick to the outer thigh _(thus dropping his height zone)_ then delivering a downward punch, inside downward elbow, palm heel, etc. ? 
Are the principles in order of priority 1-8 & 1-12?


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 18, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Alright, If I may ask... What is it or how are you striking on the opponents head? I'm visualizing maybe a roundhouse shin kick to the outer thigh _(thus dropping his height zone)_ then delivering a downward punch, inside downward elbow, palm heel, etc. ?
> Are the principles in order of priority 1-8 & 1-12?


 OK, I'll have to let him answer that question, as our 12 keywords are different as are our 12 soft, 8 hard principles. Our first hard principles is _Fan Cha_ - Rolling Fist. also, there is really no priority or order to our list except maybe in the way you learn them or understand them possibly. 

 Your correct in your explination but thats only one way to achieve it. Striking downward to the head could be froim a takedown or throw as well. In mantis we do alot of throwing and sweeps while striking or striking while the opponent is falling. Also, you could have yielded to a punch, plucked the attackers arm, thus bringing him/her off balance causing them to fall forward, then the strike would be appropriate.

  However, I'm trying to explain his principles, I'll shut up and let him explain it.

  7sm


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 18, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> this is off topic but i wanna get it off my chest
> super-duper double props to you
> exactly
> thank you very much
> ...


 At the risk of going off topic, I understand what your saying. Just remember that its sort of the order of the mantis. In other words, you can't jump in and start doing full contact mantis fighting and expect to pick up the principles and techniques of the system. It takes time and sometimes that time can seem ill-spent. As far as knowledge goes, thats the kung fu way. Its almost that you learn when your ready by asking questions. 

 I'm glad you are here asking questions, I love to discuss mantis kung fu, but I've learned the exact same way you are, by asking questions. As my knowledge or understanding grows, I allways find more questions to ask. Hang in there, you will get there, it takes a while of basics (sometimes considered boring, especially by beginers who have prior expierience in martial arts) in order to progress on.

  Ok, sorry, back on topic.... 
  7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 19, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> *8 hard ways*
> 2. Punch straight to the opponents face.


Ok, I'm not quite sure how to take this one. Obviously I know what it's trying to say. Is this something accomplished from the get go of the fight? Or maybe, do you guys not use roundhousing, hooking, or hammering techniques? Then again, the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 19, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> ... also, there is really no priority or order to our list except maybe in the way you learn them or understand them possibly.


I'm used to the curriculum that I follow as far as principles put forth in order. 
1. Erect Posture - puts everything in line. If you don't have a good base then the other stuff won't be as effective or work for that matter. You just can't fight being off balance.


----------



## DBACPhoenix (Oct 20, 2005)

Here is a list of the 8 hard ways for 7* Mantis - Lee Kam Wing Lineage:

"Mountain Tai Falls On The Incense Burner" (Chopping Down Motions)
"Punching Straight To The Face" (Straight Forward Motions)
"Advancing Body With Double Palms" (Double Palm Motions)
"Sticking And Elbowing Hard" (Upward and Downward Elbow Breaking Motions)
"Sticking To The Door Leaning Hard" (Ramping Techniques)
"Strike Hard Above And Kick Below" (Illusive Techniques)
"Left and Right Hooking Attacks" (Confusing Techniques)
"Blocking Midline Attacks To The Side Then Chopping" (Midline Defensive
Motions)

I know that the Chuen Luen Lineage is slight different, but very close and if these methods are taken purely on principle, then they can be considered the same.

A few other things that you may want to know about the 8 Hard (Baat Kung) is that each set of techniques have certain attack points.  The first of the 8 hard is commonly done with the Fan Cha (as 7* pointed out), which is commonly refered to as hammer fists in other styles.  The Fan Cha aims for either the point in between the eyes, the jawbone below the eye, or the clavical (Note: these are the non-lethal attack points).  You will never see a hard technique done to a generalized area (head, torso, leg, etc.).  Also, during fighting it may be difficult to catagorize hard and soft techniques... The main difference between the two is intent.  The intention in hard techniques is vastly different from soft and is the main divide between the two.

To elaborate a little more on what 7* said earlier in regards to the principles Jim (Jeem) and Lim.  In our school, one of the most common combinations we show to beginners is Hook, Grab, Punch.  These three techniques are simple to demonstrate and teach, but the principles that are invovled become much more difficult to visualize for most beginner students.  

If you do not know, this combo consists of intercepting an incoming punch with a mantis hook, grabbing the intercepted arm to maintain contact, and striking with the hand that originally intercepted the attack.

This combination demonstrates Au (hook), Lau (grapple), Tsai (pluck/strike), Dil (intercept), Jim (Contact), and others depending on how the techniques are completed (and the principles invovled in the lineage).  Yet only the first three are emphisized for the techniques since most students corellate a single action as a single principle.

Now I have begun to run off on a rant...

I'll check by here more often now that I see there are those seeking good discussion!

Phoenix


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 20, 2005)

DBACPhoenix said:
			
		

> "Advancing Body With Double Palms" (Double Palm Motions)


I'm kinda curious about this above statement. Wouldn't it "generally" hurt the effectiveness of a technique to step forward with both hands to execute a double palm strike? The only way I can visualize using this is if the attacker came in deep and fast using his forward momentum to help the effectiveness of your strikes. I'm not a mantis person but I am down from the kung-fu line. Help me understand how you use this properly.  :asian: 



> If you do not know, this combo consists of intercepting an incoming punch with a mantis hook, grabbing the intercepted arm to maintain contact, and striking with the hand that originally intercepted the attack.


I was taught this as well and it's a good technique. I'm not sure about the mantis hand as I was taught using a crane hand  :idunno: .  To further explain in detail about the weapon destruction we use. If the right punch comes in I would left hand parry then hook towards the wrist while executing a right vertical upward back knuckle punch to the right tricep. Next would be circle clockwise w/right hand ontop of right bicep, slide down towards wrist then execute a left vertical inward elbow strike against the right elbow. After that the left hand would slide down the right arm (sliding check) as my right hand would employ a right vertical punch to the face.  Close to the same thing you do?


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I'm kinda curious about this above statement. Wouldn't it &quot;generally&quot; hurt the effectiveness of a technique to step forward with both hands to execute a double palm strike? The only way I can visualize using this is if the attacker came in deep and fast using his forward momentum to help the effectiveness of your strikes. I'm not a mantis person but I am down from the kung-fu line. Help me understand how you use this properly.  :asian:


 Well, in my limited experience I would say your correct to a point. I wouldn't say it would &quot;hurt&quot; the effectiveness to step forward. In fact, stepping forward could give you a much more effective strike. In mantis we do alot of strikes in connection with &quot;catching their center&quot; or controling their balance. A double palm strike could do just that, especially if its a high and a low strike at the same time. Remember we aren't saying its an initial attack with both hands, its going to be after contact has been made more than likely. Using the opponants energy to increase the effectiveness of the strike is a good thing, but its not the only way to use the principle. I think I'm not quite understanding your question. 

 7sm


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2005)

By the way, I'm much more knowledgeable of the 12 Soft Principles as that is what I'm spending most of my time on currently in my training.


----------



## mantis (Oct 23, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> By the way, I'm much more knowledgeable of the 12 Soft Principles as that is what I'm spending most of my time on currently in my training.


 let me please ask you this then: what is "diau" in mantisfgtr's number 5. "5. After your straight strike is blocked by an opponents arm, hook and control using diau." I havent been to class in like a month, but i guess I can learn online now


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2005)

mantis said:
			
		

> let me please ask you this then: what is "diau" in mantisfgtr's number 5. "5. After your straight strike is blocked by an opponents arm, hook and control using diau." I havent been to class in like a month, but i guess I can learn online now


 Mantisfgtr's list is a bit different from the one our lineage uses, I'm sure the principles conveyed are the same, but in our list #5 would be: 
Using dil sau to difuse enemies attack.

I assume that his use of the word "diau" refers to the hooking dil sau motion, but I'll have to let him answer that. It even might be that a typo was made making "dilsau" become diau?

7sm


----------



## DBACPhoenix (Oct 24, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I'm kinda curious about this above statement. Wouldn't it &quot;generally&quot; hurt the effectiveness of a technique to step forward with both hands to execute a double palm strike? The only way I can visualize using this is if the attacker came in deep and fast using his forward momentum to help the effectiveness of your strikes. I'm not a mantis person but I am down from the kung-fu line. Help me understand how you use this properly.  :asian:


  I agree with 7sm on this one.  While direct interpretation of the technique would seem that it is an attack that has no regard for keeping the opponent in check, it must be remembered that the hard methods usually develop from success with the soft.  To 7sm's point about dil sau, if the enemies attack is diffused and your advance into your attack puts you on the inside of your enemy (between the arms) then this attack is extremely effective.  Also, note that this does not always have to happen the same way.  An attack passed to the side that allows one to reposition behind to opponent can easily be seen as an advantage for this technique.  I hope this helps explain things better...  





			
				jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I was taught this as well and it's a good technique. I'm not sure about the mantis hand as I was taught using a crane hand  :idunno: .  To further explain in detail about the weapon destruction we use. If the right punch comes in I would left hand parry then hook towards the wrist while executing a right vertical upward back knuckle punch to the right tricep. Next would be circle clockwise w/right hand ontop of right bicep, slide down towards wrist then execute a left vertical inward elbow strike against the right elbow. After that the left hand would slide down the right arm (sliding check) as my right hand would employ a right vertical punch to the face.  Close to the same thing you do?


  I understand what you are getting at here and it is slightly different from what I described, but still has employs techniques from other common combinations that we train.  The technique I described would be more like if you grabbed the arm instead of punching it, followed by a strike to the face with the left.  The added arm break goes into other principles that are used such as &quot;Tip&quot;, which is to tag (there are many ways to execute this principle), which you actually seem to do twice (punch to tricep/elbow arm break).  Aside from this, it is similar.  Phoenix


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 24, 2005)

DBACPhoenix said:
			
		

> I agree with 7sm on this one. While direct interpretation of the technique would seem that it is an attack that has no regard for keeping the opponent in check, it must be remembered that the hard methods usually develop from success with the soft. To 7sm's point about dil sau, if the enemies attack is diffused and your advance into your attack puts you on the inside of your enemy (between the arms) then this attack is extremely effective. Also, note that this does not always have to happen the same way. An attack passed to the side that allows one to reposition behind to opponent can easily be seen as an advantage for this technique. I hope this helps explain things better...


I get what you are doing now. I read more into it as you were advancing while still fighting with your opponent. If I would have thought about it more a little in depth it just makes sense to to leave the attacker w/o any fight left . My next question about this would be are you attacking the centerline with your two strikes simultaneously? It appears as though you would get a better reaction with 2 strikes on a vertical plane vs. a horizontal one. 



> I understand what you are getting at here and it is slightly different from what I described, but still has employs techniques from other common combinations that we train. The technique I described would be more like if you grabbed the arm instead of punching it, followed by a strike to the face with the left. The added arm break goes into other principles that are used such as &quot;Tip&quot;, which is to tag (there are many ways to execute this principle), which you actually seem to do twice (punch to tricep/elbow arm break). Aside from this, it is similar


I'm sure there's quite a bit that can be inserted from the hub bud drills or the chi sao form of fighting. Too many people want to speed up and miss the important parts of the finesse of techniques. Good typing with 'ya.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 28, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> My next question about this would be are you attacking the centerline with your two strikes simultaneously? It appears as though you would get a better reaction with 2 strikes on a vertical plane vs. a horizontal one.


 Well, its not neccessarily all centerline. That is one principles or technique mantis doesnt 'over emphasise. Centerline is great, but mantis people usually know how to control or move their own center thus masking theri true "center". Centerline may not produce the same affect on a mantis person as it would someone else. Attacking with both strikes on different plains really mixes it up! 

The question of verticle vs horizontal....The answer to this is really, both. The idea of striking on a verticle plain as I mentioned before (low and high) is not only to make it much harder to block or evade both attacks, but also its much easier to control their center. However, striking on the horizontal plain isn't neccessarily bad. Some of the core principles we use are about controling the opponents center of balance. To attack with two strikes on a horizontal plain also makes it tough to yield or move out of the way of the attack. In reality its just two different usages for different situations.

7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 28, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> *12 Soft ways*
> 1. withdraw hands when encountering a rigid movement by opponent.


 
Ok, Mr. 7*  

I'm lost on this one. I'm not quite sure what a ridgid movement is. I'm guessing a punch_(ing combination)._ Is this withdraw hands off of an opponent while being attacked?


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 28, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> The question of verticle vs horizontal....The answer to this is really, both. The idea of striking on a verticle plain as I mentioned before (low and high) is not only to make it much harder to block or evade both attacks, but also its much easier to control their center. However, striking on the horizontal plain isn't neccessarily bad. Some of the core principles we use are about controling the opponents center of balance. To attack with two strikes on a horizontal plain also makes it tough to yield or move out of the way of the attack. In reality its just two different usages for different situations.


 
Do you find it difficult to produce a lot of power while striking in two places at the same time? I've been taught by both of my martial arts instructors to not strike the same zone or plane at the same time. Reason being is that it diminishes any type of power. However now that I've been exposed to Kenpo & knowing how to use back up mass _(as we call it)_ I might be able to figure out how to generate a little more umph I just can't figure it out. Now I understand though you and your instructor have differences and probably can do it well and this is something that is probably best done hands on rather than written text but that's all we have.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 28, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Ok, Mr. 7*
> 
> I'm lost on this one. I'm not quite sure what a ridgid movement is. I'm guessing a punch_(ing combination)._ Is this withdraw hands off of an opponent while being attacked?


 This one will be hard to explain  Its what we refer to as "collapsing". 
A punch(ing combination) could most deffinitely be a "rigid movement". However, take it way beyond that. A block from you could be a "rogod movement" as well, if you block hard enough to "push" my hnad in any certain direction. To withdraw the hands is to collapse them in starting at the fingers, wrist, elbow, etc... This allows for you to draw them in closer for an attack. Collapsing at the elbow can allow for a really powerful elbow attack.

It is deffinitely not withdrawign _off_ the opponent. We dont loose contact, so withdrawing the hands will transfer contact to another part of the body.

That make sense?

7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 28, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> It is deffinitely not withdrawign _off_ the opponent. We dont loose contact, so withdrawing the hands will transfer contact to another part of the body.


 
Which is why you guys "stick" to your opponent a lot? 

I think I get the idea behind this.



> A block from you could be a "rogod movement" as well, if you block hard enough to "push" my hnad in any certain direction. To withdraw the hands is to collapse them in starting at the fingers, wrist, elbow, etc... This allows for you to draw them in closer for an attack.


I would probably refer to that as checking or canceling a zone of the opponent. Although if I checked off an attackers width zone you better believe that I'm going to start beating on their body fairly quickly.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 29, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Do you find it difficult to produce a lot of power while striking in two places at the same time? I've been taught by both of my martial arts instructors to not strike the same zone or plane at the same time. Reason being is that it diminishes any type of power. However now that I've been exposed to Kenpo & knowing how to use back up mass _(as we call it)_ I might be able to figure out how to generate a little more umph I just can't figure it out. Now I understand though you and your instructor have differences and probably can do it well and this is something that is probably best done hands on rather than written text but that's all we have.


 Not really. I mean sure its not going to be the same as a winding up "bubba punch" or anything, but we really dont use that type of power generation anyway. Alot of it is getting lower than your opponent or catching their center. If you have their center then you really dont need all that much power to throw them off balance or even throw them down. In mantis not all of our attacks are meant to do ultimate damage, some are meant to disrupt the opponent and then offer the damaging attacks (notice attacks not attack, we attack continually and agressively until they are either out of commision or they have "stolen" our attack and turned it back on us). Yes, its much easier to grasp "hands on". However, using circular movement to generate the power, a two handed attack can contain quite a bit of power. It involves, for example, shifting your body from say horse stance to forward stance as the two strikes make contact. Its all in the transition of stance. Trying to simply use arm (muscle) strength to generate power in a two handed strike will probably not give you much power.



			
				jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Which is why you guys "stick" to your opponent a lot?
> 
> I think I get the idea behind this.


 Yes, exactly. The "sticking" is multi purposed, but yes, thats one reason.



			
				jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I would probably refer to that as checking or canceling a zone of the opponent. Although if I checked off an attackers width zone you better believe that I'm going to start beating on their body fairly quickly.


 OK, I gotcha, I think we are the same plain here. The best example I can give is if I threw a straight punch and you blocked it towards the outside. You block would hit my arm about at my own forearm or so. I would then Allow the part of my arm from my elbow down (towards my fingers) relax and move the way in which your block pushes it. However, since my arm is folding at the elbow, the elbow falls inward to strike. 

And yes, attacking very quickly and aggressively is needed in this type of situation.

7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Nov 15, 2005)

mantisfgtr said:
			
		

> *12 Soft ways*
> 2. After contact with opponents blocking arm, circle around and strike straight inward..


Ok, now that I have time again.

In this instance are you using the same hands or opposite hands? Like block/strike same arm or block and then strike with the opposite? Linear strikes vs. circular strikes why do you favor one over the other in this principle? If circling why not continue circling?


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 21, 2005)

The set we use, words them a bit different. Basically we use: 
Yup Sau Yee Tau Sau - Blocking strike quickly and returning strike.

This would be using the same hand, blocking say with the inside of the forearm out (palm facing you) then striking quickly inward with the same hand. In reality you are finishing the circle, its just a very small circle. The outward block starts the circle and then your waist yields to finish the circle and send the attack back towards the opponent.

7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Mar 26, 2006)

I've been out for a while. I didn't realize it's been this long as I have been spending most of my time on kenpotalk. 

Anyway, is there a website or does anyone know of any studios that teach 7* or a host of other of the CMA's? Also, how would one know the good from the bad. You know like someone learned just enough to be dangerous then opened their own studio a 1000 miles away. Thanks for the input.


----------



## 7starmantis (Mar 26, 2006)

Well lets see, for 7* there are a couple of sites. These do their best but are in no way complete listings.

http://www.geocities.com/mantiscave/frame.htm  (many mantis styles, mostly lineage)

http://198.170.117.174/mantis_directory.html    (pretty extensive listing of schools)

7sm


----------



## jfarnsworth (Mar 26, 2006)

Hey thanks, i'll be checking them out.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Mar 26, 2006)

Like I figured. They all seem to be quite a drive.


----------

