# Applying Your Techniques While On The Ground



## MJS (Jun 21, 2006)

I've heard from many people that techniques in the Kenpo system can be applied while on the ground, that the grappling aspect has always been there, but you just need to know how to extract it.

I thought that we could discuss any techniques that you may have been able to apply while grappling, what changes you made to make the technique work as well as how SL4 views this subject.

Of course, keep in mind that the tech. will not look the same as it does while standing, but ideas of movements will be used.

Mike


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## Andrew Green (Jun 21, 2006)

if it's always been there shouldn't all the people that trained with Ed Parker remember him teaching it?  Possibly even have video evidence?

I'm sure a lot of the same concepts apply, people only move in so many ways.  But the "It was always there" claim is silly, it wasn't, same with all the karate, TKD and Kung Fu people that suddenly realised it was always there when grappling became popular. 

I think it's great that lots of people are trying to expand into new areas, but claiming it was always there IMO degrades the system.  It wasn't there, and why claim it was?  Shouldn't the system have enough strengths on it's own to not have to make claims that it is things that it never was?


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## Ceicei (Jun 21, 2006)

Well, there were some moves and holds I learned in Kenpo that later when I took up Judo/Jujitsu, I realized that these holds were derived from Judo/Jujitsu.  It is no secret that Mr. Parker had studied a grappling art also and of course would incorporate his knowledge of moves/holds/takedowns while he was developing American Kenpo.  It just didn't dawn on me about that association (until I cross-trained).  

Because of that experience, this taught me to take a step back to take a fresh look at the Kenpo techniques.  It was then I was able to see more of the grappling moves that existed (I hadn't "seen" before in this context).  The new view completely changed my previous opinion that there "weren't any grappling" in Kenpo.  I learned to train myself to find/look for similarities and make my motion better.

I still study with JuJitsu and that has helped me understand Kenpo more than I thought possible.  Kenpo will always be my base style.  Any Kenpo techniques I may use while on the ground will evidently be influenced by my training with Jujitsu.

- Ceicei


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## Flying Crane (Jun 21, 2006)

Well, I think that once upon a time, a long time ago, the arts were more complete in the sense that they dealt more effectively with all ranges of combat, including grappling.  Since that time the arts, for various reasons, began to specialize in certain types of fighting and became less well rounded.  I don't know why this happened, maybe just personal preference of certain individuals who then passed it on and thus the trend was born.  Many (but not all) striking arts became more and more focused on striking to the eventual, almost complete, exclusion of grappling.

So in a sense, it was always there, but maybe too long ago for anyone to actually remember it.

But I do think that many of the standup arts contain techniques and concepts that can be effective in a grappling situation.  Kenpo, for example, has a lot of joint manipulation techniques that could be useful in grappling.  Of course this is not going to be as effective in a grappling situation as a full on grappling art, like judo or jujitsu, or shuai jiao.  But there is stuff there.

If someone who understands the art well were to examine it closely and train with an eye for grappling applications, there is stuff in there that could work.  You won't beat Royce Gracie with it in a grappling bout, but that doesn't mean it is empty of merit and wouldn't work against someone who is not a highly trained grappling specialist.  That's the difference.  Any art that doesn't specialize in grappling, but does contain some element of grappling techniques will never be able to match against a true grappling specialist, in a grappling situation.  But in a street confrontation, against an opponent who is likely NOT a grappling specialist, the techniques can be effective if the fight ends up on the ground.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 21, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> if it's always been there shouldn't all the people that trained with Ed Parker remember him teaching it? Possibly even have video evidence?
> 
> I'm sure a lot of the same concepts apply, people only move in so many ways. But the "It was always there" claim is silly, it wasn't, same with all the karate, TKD and Kung Fu people that suddenly realised it was always there when grappling became popular.
> 
> I think it's great that lots of people are trying to expand into new areas, but claiming it was always there IMO degrades the system. It wasn't there, and why claim it was? Shouldn't the system have enough strengths on it's own to not have to make claims that it is things that it never was?


This "Always There" Idea would depend entirely on your view of the art and what the techs mean to you. The dimensions change but your basic motion should not. If it does you have a gap.
Sean


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## JamesB (Jun 22, 2006)

I agree with Andrew here. At no time has grappling (for the ground) been a part of the mainstream kenpo curriculum. Saying that one could apply X technique on the ground is not being realistic - Kenpo just isn't designed for the ground. Personally if I wanted to look for solutions to 'fighting' on the ground I would train in Judo or something similar. It's the training method that is most important, not the theory behind it.

However to say that Kenpo isn't a grappling art is incorrect - a huge proportion of techniques are grappling/manipulations which is why I like Kenpo so much  

Doesn't really answer the question though: Encounter with Danger is really the only obvious technique that is applied from the ground.


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## jonah2 (Jun 22, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I've heard from many people that techniques in the Kenpo system can be applied while on the ground, that the grappling aspect has always been there, but you just need to know how to extract it.
> 
> I thought that we could discuss any techniques that you may have been able to apply while grappling, what changes you made to make the technique work as well as how SL4 views this subject.
> 
> ...


 
Lets say Mr bad guy has the mount with right hand holding you down ready for a pound with the left (of course could be the reversed hands).

A pin of his hand with your left and strike of the arm with your right could break the hold down sufficient to manipulate the arm from wrist and turning the elbow to change the centre of balance of the guy on top. Throw a right knee strike / lift of the hips adding to the momentum. 

Pretty much delayed sword without the footwork. May as well start right at the beggining if there is a discussion on 'any' technique

Not trained it - but just a thought

Cheers - jonah


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## MJS (Jun 22, 2006)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Lets say Mr bad guy has the mount with right hand holding you down ready for a pound with the left (of course could be the reversed hands).
> 
> A pin of his hand with your left and strike of the arm with your right could break the hold down sufficient to manipulate the arm from wrist and turning the elbow to change the centre of balance of the guy on top. Throw a right knee strike / lift of the hips adding to the momentum.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, this is where I was looking to take this discussion. Thanks!

After taking the time to talk with someone who was able to make things a bit clearer for me, I started to experiment with a few techniques.  Here are a few that I came up with.

The Delayed Sword technique that you mentioned above, pretty much using the same idea.

Crossing Talon:  Using the same basic idea as DS, but going to the outside of the arm, rather than inside.  Bridging onto the shoulders to throw the person off.

Crashing Wings:  In the standing version of this technique, for a rear bear hug, we're stepping out and hitting the forearms with your elbows.  From a guard position, with opponents legs wrapped around you, this same move can be applied, using your elbows to strike the inside of the legs to get a release.

Mike


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## MJS (Jun 22, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> If someone who understands the art well were to examine it closely and train with an eye for grappling applications, there is stuff in there that could work. You won't beat Royce Gracie with it in a grappling bout, but that doesn't mean it is empty of merit and wouldn't work against someone who is not a highly trained grappling specialist. That's the difference. Any art that doesn't specialize in grappling, but does contain some element of grappling techniques will never be able to match against a true grappling specialist, in a grappling situation. But in a street confrontation, against an opponent who is likely NOT a grappling specialist, the techniques can be effective if the fight ends up on the ground.


 
Well said!:asian: 

Being able to find it is the first part of the battle.  Once its found, ideas can be used to formulate an escape.  I agree that the average Joe won't be a ground expert.  IMO, the idea is to effect an escape and get back to my feet.  I'd rather not tie myself up going for a finish on the ground.  

Of course, having some grappling training is never a bad thing, but I was just looking to explore techniques from the Kenpo system.  

I know that you're coming from a Tracy background.  Please feel free to jump in with anything from that system!:ultracool 

Mike


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## spiderboy (Jun 22, 2006)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Lets say Mr bad guy has the mount with right hand holding you down ready for a pound with the left (of course could be the reversed hands).
> 
> A pin of his hand with your left and strike of the arm with your right could break the hold down sufficient to manipulate the arm from wrist and turning the elbow to change the centre of balance of the guy on top. Throw a right knee strike / lift of the hips adding to the momentum.
> 
> ...



 Hi mate, long time no see!

 I have a problem with your description of this. I've not yet tried it myself, (at work - will next lesson) - but I cant lose the mental image of pinning and striking his right arm, while his left fist is pounding the snot out of me. 

I'm not saying there isnt merit to the tech principles on the ground - I haven't explored it well enough yet - and I can't think of a better solution right now, but delayed sword? I dunno :idunno: I guess I would try to pull his right arm across my body to move his left shoulder and arm away - reduce his striking power, maybe open his face up for a strike with my left? (more like crossing talon I suppose).

 I would be interested to hear from a grappler's perspective - what techs they have and the similarities to our standing techs.

 Hope to see you in class soon - how is the stick work coming along?

 Alex


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## jonah2 (Jun 22, 2006)

spiderboy said:
			
		

> Hi mate, long time no see!
> 
> I have a problem with your description of this. I've not yet tried it myself, (at work - will next lesson) - but I cant lose the mental image of pinning and striking his right arm, while his left fist is pounding the snot out of me.
> 
> ...


 
Hey alex - good to hear from you

sticks coming on ok - killed the first set so had to make new ones.

Your highlighted section is exactly what I was talking about. the wrist manipulation with a pull on his elbow with my right accross me and rotating the arm would force the head and shoulder off centre.

Again same with delayed sword if the pound has already commenced the tech is too late and time to change it.

See you soon my bud

jonah


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## MJS (Jun 22, 2006)

Regarding the strikes coming down on us.  Lets look at this from a strictly grappling point of view for a minute.  One escape from the mount, is for the bottom person to get control of at least one arm of the top guy.  The next step would be to trap one of his legs, to prevent him from posting it, to give him support and prevent himself from being rolled off.  You would then bridge onto your shoulders and off to one side, throwing the person off.

Now, if punches are coming down, its going to be kinda hard to get control of an arm, so we need to do something to buy us some time to do that.  Bumping our hips up, going onto our shoulders would cause the top person to start to fall forward.  Unless they want to land on their face, chances are they're going to put their hands out to regain their balance.  This is the time to get ahold of an arm, and continue with the rest of the move.

Back to the technique on the ground:  This same idea above, can be used here as well.  In addition, we still have our right hand free for blocking purposes.  Its really no different than if we were doing DS standing.  We pin, and if the person decides to punch with their left, our hand is free to graft into another technique.

I hope that this was a help. 

Mike


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## spiderboy (Jun 22, 2006)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Your highlighted section is exactly what I was talking about. the wrist manipulation with a pull on his elbow with my right accross me and rotating the arm would force the head and shoulder off centre.
> jonah


Oh OK, I thought you were talking about Delayed Sword. Looks like we are thinking along the same lines  Next time you're in class maybe we can play with these a bit.

Cheers mate,

Alex


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## Jimi (Jun 22, 2006)

When I trained with Henry Sotelo, he showed us some techniques you could consider grappling. Most of what he showed me was using takedowns into finishes/submissions. He never showed us things like guard work or how to achieve the mount (Which we just called it the bully position) One technique of grappling he showed us was using an armbar standing to takedown an opponent (1st he showed us using it to feed them a curb sandwich) and then follow up on the ground by stepping over the arn & head then roll back into the classic Japanese armbar you see a lot in Shooto & UFC. This was 1984, way before the quote popularity of grappling, it was the ninjutstu decade then. We were taught to take someone to the ground, but don't stay there. Throw them away like a bag of trash. What I learned from Henry's offshoot of what he called Kajukenbo defitnately had some ground work, but nothing as specialised as the grappling of today. BTW, I mean no disrespect to any of the Kajukenbo Family by calling out their arts name, it is simply what Henry told us what we were learning, some of the Kajukenbo Family realise that I am not claiming rank in their art, just that I was exposed to things called by that name. A special nod of respect to Master John Bishop for his freindly understanding of my bastard black belt like standing in my training. PEACE


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## jonah2 (Jun 22, 2006)

spiderboy said:
			
		

> Next time you're in class maybe we can play with these a bit.
> 
> Cheers mate,
> 
> Alex


 
Love to roll around on the floor with a 6'2" bloke - but i'm not gay or owt

jonah


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Well said!:asian:
> 
> I know that you're coming from a Tracy background. Please feel free to jump in with anything from that system!:ultracool
> 
> Mike


 
Thanks, Mike.

I gotta be honest, grappling is where I have absolutely the least amount of experience so I am reluctant to comment with specifics.  I had a buddy in college who was a judo green belt and wrestled in High School.  We used to toss each other around a bit and I learned a few things from him, but that was like 15 years ago.  Another friend of mine trained in BJJ, I worked out with him a couple times, but got a bruised trachea each time from the choke holds, that left my throat sore for several weeks.  Only did that a couple times.  That's really the extent of my grappling training.

It's hard to really describe a possible scenario because I think there is so much that is unpredictable, anything that I might try to describe as a possibility would probably be shot full of holes by anyone with more grappling experience.  However, I really think the various joint manipulations, arm bars, wrist locks, elbow locks, and such, would have some real potential against an attacker.  Couple that with the fact that you are going to keep punching and biting and kicking while on the ground, and I think things can work out.  Again, this is assuming my attacker is not a highly trained grappling specialist like Royce Gracie.  

I don't like to take specific SD techniques and try to create a scenario where they might work.  I think the techs are too prescribed, and make a lot of assumptions that aren't often true.  I don't think that makes the techs bad, but I just view the techs a lot more loosely.  I think they give you a lot of tools to use depending on what the job calls for, but I don't like to make any assumptions about using a specific technique in a specific circumstance. 

This makes it difficult to go in deep with this discussion.  But I do believe that if you get on the mat with your training partners and start playing with the stuff with a focus on grappling, there is stuff that would work.

I think the thing to remember is that the goal is to do what is necessary to neutralize the attacker to the point where you can escape.  When you are attacked on the street, you don't want to stay and duke it out with your attacker and prove you are better.  You want to defend yourself which ultimately means escape.  You aren't going to stay and grapple until you put the guy into a pin, or get him to submit.  This isn't a contest to decide who is better.  Its an attack, and you simply want to escape with the least injuries to yourself as possible.  Sure, it would be nice to put the guy in a painful hold, and keep him subdued until the police can arrive, but that just may not be possible, and shouldn't be your goal at all.


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## simon (Jun 23, 2006)

no offence to everyone....but forget about the grappling aspect, im a 4th dan jujitsu...
if i want to enter the ufc or compete then ground fighting is important, i did this for about 10 years, but when we teach street techs,self defence or traditaional side then we try to dispatchor defend from standing,so keep the kenpo standing.
its ok saying " its hidden in the system"...unless you practice it everyday  ( or whatever you practice) but its just like every other karate saying " american kenpo is actually in our system,you justgot to extract it......."
nnnaaaahhhhh, you have to practice specific strategies and ways of performing techniques.
i trained with a 4th dan akk instructor whos also my freind, he started talking about the ground fighting side of kenpo.......but he couldnt beat our kyu grades, although from standing he could wipe em out on the entry ( well most of them hehehehehe) once it came to the clinch he was up you know what creek.
i started akk for the different aspects and strategies,in jj we would apply a lock and restrain ( british law on self defence)...in akk....break the darn thing..they shouldnt be attcking us lol.
im also studying togakure ryu ninjutsu...if the ninjutsu sylabus doesnt go too deeply into ground fighting......instead ...dispatch or restrain asap.
im not having a go here,and im open to others ideas, but im in the security industry and at work in a situation..i avoid going to the floor.

SALUTE


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## Flying Crane (Jun 23, 2006)

Simon, I'm in agreement with you in regards to keep it on your feet because that is where kenpo is best.  But in the chaos of an attack, you could find yourself on the ground, and I do believe there is stuff you might find useful, that is all.  Not making any claims to be able to beat a grappling specialist, even a kyu grade one.  But if a kenpo guy finds himself on the ground with an attacker I just don't believe he has to assume he his helpless.


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## MJS (Jun 24, 2006)

simon said:
			
		

> no offence to everyone....but forget about the grappling aspect, im a 4th dan jujitsu...
> if i want to enter the ufc or compete then ground fighting is important, i did this for about 10 years, but when we teach street techs,self defence or traditaional side then we try to dispatchor defend from standing,so keep the kenpo standing.
> its ok saying " its hidden in the system"...unless you practice it everyday ( or whatever you practice) but its just like every other karate saying " american kenpo is actually in our system,you justgot to extract it......."
> nnnaaaahhhhh, you have to practice specific strategies and ways of performing techniques.
> ...


 
I think that FC made some good points on this.  I too, am not saying that we should expect to beat a specialist, but I don't think that we should have to curl up in a ball and get beat on just because we end up on the ground.  

I'll go a step further and say that it has only been a short time that I've tried to look a bit deeper into the art of Kenpo techs. on the ground.  For the longest time I was like, "Grappling in Kenpo? Hmm..Where is it because I don't see it?"  After having someone take some time to explain things to me, I began to see things here and there.  I do some BJJ to further expand on that ground work.  

Mike


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## simon (Jun 24, 2006)

flying crane...i completley agree with you,ive just had many people talk to me claiming their system can do this that and the other.
kenpo on the ground....most techniqes could be used, especially the ones where ( if on you back) you use the opponents head to torque him over.
in jj we use a simple set of rules for ground self defence ( not mma grappling but normal on the street stuff).
1. gaurd ( instantly protect any areas open)
2.pain ( take the attackers mind off attacking).
3.manouvere ( move using bio (body) mechanics to place them into a position you control)
4.finish or restrain then escape.

im sure you can apply most kenpo techs to this strategy.

SALUTE


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## Brother John (Jun 24, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> if it's always been there shouldn't all the people that trained with Ed Parker remember him teaching it? Possibly even have video evidence?
> 
> I'm sure a lot of the same concepts apply, people only move in so many ways. But the "It was always there" claim is silly, it wasn't, same with all the karate, TKD and Kung Fu people that suddenly realised it was always there when grappling became popular.
> 
> I think it's great that lots of people are trying to expand into new areas, but claiming it was always there IMO degrades the system. It wasn't there, and why claim it was? Shouldn't the system have enough strengths on it's own to not have to make claims that it is things that it never was?


Though I understand where you are coming from, and agree that no Kenpoist (who's not cross-trained) should claim that Kenpo is a "Grappling System".....There IS grappling within the techniques. Not a LOT of it, but it is in there. I think this reflects that Mr. Parker had a BB in Judo, and some of his top students studied Judo and or Jujutsu. People can study and extract the grappling elements from w/in Kenpo, elaborate on them and (hopefully) expound on them greatly by cross-training with folks from actual Grappling Systems......and then their grappling may excell. 
It's IN THERE, but it's not a main feature.............unless you make it so.

Your Brother
John


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## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Though I understand where you are coming from, and agree that no Kenpoist (who's not cross-trained) should claim that Kenpo is a "Grappling System".....There IS grappling within the techniques. Not a LOT of it, but it is in there. I think this reflects that Mr. Parker had a BB in Judo, and some of his top students studied Judo and or Jujutsu. People can study and extract the grappling elements from w/in Kenpo, elaborate on them and (hopefully) expound on them greatly by cross-training with folks from actual Grappling Systems......and then their grappling may excell.
> It's IN THERE, but it's not a main feature.............unless you make it so.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
I'm probably the least qualified to comment here, but here goes.

Most of my instructors have some very deep training in BJJ.   We don't offer BJJ classes, but we will offer it as an optional part of certain classes.  No one has to grapple if they don't want to...but for those that do they have given us a few basics.  I don't consider my grappling skills to be much to brag about...but this is my impressions.

Kenpo to me is like a dialog.  Right hook to the attacker's temple.  He holds where it hurts, raising his hand opening up his ribs to attack.   Our techniques seem to script common, or at least reasonable dialogs.

To me BJJ isn't a dialalog, its a high stakes chess match.  The strategy is thicker.  I'm not only thinking of my next move, I'm thinking 3 moves ahead.   The risks...to me...are bigger.  An opponent twice my weight is not hard to find.  Fending him off while on my feet is tough.  Fending him off on the ground is even harder.   The experience was very sobering.

Grappling gives me a different thought process.  I try to sense minute differences in balance to see if I can find any kind of advantage.  My spatial orientation gets a good workout trying to process different ways I can entangle my own limbs to get a desired result.

For someone that knows Kenpo a lot better than I do (which is all of you, I think  ) it may be very easy to draw the paralells and mach the patterns.  For me it feels like a different game altogether.  Not saying that's right or wrong...just what's in my thick skull.


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## Brother John (Jun 24, 2006)

There is a huge difference there, but it's comparing the feel and mindset of a grappling dominant system to a striking dominant system.
Apples /=/ Oranges
 BUT: that still doesn't mean that there's NO grappling, even Very worthwhile grappling, W/in Kenpo.
But I think I understand what you're saying.

Your Brother
John


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## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> There is a huge difference there, but it's comparing the feel and mindset of a grappling dominant system to a striking dominant system.
> Apples /=/ Oranges
> BUT: that still doesn't mean that there's NO grappling, even Very worthwhile grappling, W/in Kenpo.
> But I think I understand what you're saying.
> ...


 
Including me _grappling_ to understand it all... 

*ducking for cover*


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## kenpohack (Jun 26, 2006)

My instructor thinks it's possible to apply kenpo techniques on the ground. I remain somewhat skeptical. However, he does freely admit that kenpo manipulates 3 dimensions (height, width, and depth) while you don't have depth to manipulate in bjj. This does pose some problems, since most kenpo techniques require depth for power generation or the ability to check depth to prevent counterattack. That being said...he says the first move of crashing wings can by used to break a closed guard. I've never tried it. Also, the attacks to entangled wing and twisted twig basically constitute a Americana from a standing postition. I suppose that the same initial move in both techniques may apply to an Americana on the ground. Although, thrusting my arm straight over my head and rotating into my opponent usually works, too.

Obviously, many kenpo strikes work well from the mount. While in the half guard, you can sweep an opponent with a motion similar to securing the storm. That's all I really know at this point.


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## simon (Jun 27, 2006)

another way of looking at it could be any other martial art can say " our art contains american kenpo,you just have to extract it from what we already do"

all arts contain the base movements and have some basic knowledge of fighting in most areas, ive met some taekwondo and karates that claim to have locks and takedowns...but they only actually practice them once in a blue moon,meaning that when it comes to using them in a self defence situation then it wont get used.
i understand what your saying and want to understand the ground work side but the only real way you can understand grappling is to train under a grappling instructor...........if you tried grappling against another non grappler then you wouldnt learn as much as you would grappling a trained grappler ,then take that knowledge back to your club then decipher what constitutes as american kenpo and whether you could use it in your system.

SALUTE


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## HKphooey (Jun 27, 2006)

I would assume that the motor skills you have learned in your kenpo training will kick in no matter if your are vertical or horizontal.  It would be no different if you were sitting in a chair or your car.  You may lose the legs and gravity principles, but the hands and upper body manipulation are still there.  

IMO, this is what kenpo training is all about.  May have have been designed for it, but it does not mean it will not work in a ground fighting situation. 

When I watch MMA fights, some of the major missing components that are missing are gouges, rakes, eye pokes (and the rest of the finger sets).  Kenpo has all of those and in a street fight those are fair game.

I worked this idea in classa few weeks ago and many kenpo movements (I'll use that phrase instead of technique) would work on the ground.  Not saying that is the best choice, but it is what many of us have drilled into our subconscious.

Just my thoughts on the subject. 

Good thread.


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## simon (Jun 27, 2006)

but now your comparing mma ( competition) with self defence, how many kenpo competitions use eye gauges and fish hooks???


SALUTE


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## HKphooey (Jun 27, 2006)

simon said:
			
		

> but now your comparing mma ( competition) with self defence, how many kenpo competitions use eye gauges and fish hooks???
> 
> 
> SALUTE


 
Lol!    I think you get the jist of what I am trying to say (at least I hope).

In kenpo training we use most of those strikes on a daily basis and they are part of most techniques so they are second nature.


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## MJS (Jun 27, 2006)

simon said:
			
		

> i understand what your saying and want to understand the ground work side but the only real way you can understand grappling is to train under a grappling instructor...........if you tried grappling against another non grappler then you wouldnt learn as much as you would grappling a trained grappler ,then take that knowledge back to your club then decipher what constitutes as american kenpo and whether you could use it in your system.
> 
> SALUTE


 
Yes, thats a good point.  Thats one of the reasons why I've always been an advocate of cross training.  Again, my goal isn't to try to 'out grapple' someone on the ground.  I'm looking for the best and quickest way to escape and get back to my feet.  

Mike


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## simon (Jun 27, 2006)

then let someone take you down and use your kenpo.
in jj we teach everything is valid on the street,but in the uk we have to be very wary of the law, i know other countrys dont have this problem,but good luck and just try iot out.

maybe even post your results what took you unawares, what you expected and maybe the outcome.

SALUTE


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## MJS (Jun 28, 2006)

simon said:
			
		

> then let someone take you down and use your kenpo.
> in jj we teach everything is valid on the street,but in the uk we have to be very wary of the law, i know other countrys dont have this problem,but good luck and just try iot out.
> 
> maybe even post your results what took you unawares, what you expected and maybe the outcome.
> ...


 
I have worked on this and have had some luck.  Again, as its been said, the idea is not to assume that we'll be turned into expert grapplers.  I have a background in BJJ so that is a help as well. 

Out of curiosity, do you have a background in Kenpo?  Its always easier to understand where we as Kenpoists, are coming from, if you can relate to the techniques. 

Mike


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## matt.m (Jun 28, 2006)

I will have to go with the "Arts were more complete back in the day" thought as well.  I mean the GM that teaches me tkd has told me that at one time self defense techniques were also taught in the cirriculum.  Not hapkido, but hapkido esque types of self defense.  He showed me a few but they are not part of the testing cirriculum.

I would like to see just exactly what Taekyon's cirriculum was back in the 1600's.


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## simon (Jun 28, 2006)

mjs- im studying american kenpo also.
i was very impressed with it a few years back and have been studying eversince, im waiting to see if im ratified as shodan so i have a clear understanding of kenpo techs,this is why i feel ( in my opinion..which may differ from others lol but always in a freindly and respectful way).
that i can comment abuot the kenpo/jujitsu techs.


my main concern is that kenpo being primaraly a striking art and employs the use of physics for striking, those physics principles differ greatly from the way a grappler/jujitsu practices when striking on the ground.
i personnaly have always relied on pure grappling when on the ground as opposed to striking, but this was always so i knew i was working my jj.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jun 28, 2006)

simon said:
			
		

> my main concern is that kenpo being primaraly a striking art and employs the use of physics for striking, those physics principles differ greatly from the way a grappler/jujitsu practices when striking on the ground.


 
I would have to disagree.  Here is an article I posted elsewhere...

The Judo/Ju Jitsu in Kenpo

Throws of the Kodokan and the Kenpo Techniques they appear in either as the throw itself or as the entry of the throw (sometimes hidden sometimes blatantly obvious). (Visit http://www.judoinfo.com/gokyo1.htm and http://www.judoinfo.com/gokyo.htm for videos of Judo variants)

This list is not meant to be all-inclusive.  It is only a primer.

De-ashi-harai = Glancing Spear, Dance of Darkness, Flashing Wings ext.
Uki-goshi = Destructive Twins Ext., Marriage of the Rams
Osoto-gari = Sleeper, Tripping Arrow, Dominating Circles, Circling the Horizon etc.
O-goshi = Securing the Storm, Spreading Branch, Raining Claw ext.
Ouchi-gari = Desperate Falcons, Spreading Branch
Seoi-nage = Obscure Wing ext., Twisted Twig ext., Circles of Protection ext., Thrusting Wedge
Kosoto-gari = See De-ashi-harai
Kouchi-gari = Captured leaves ext, Scraping Hoof ext
Koshi-guruma = Sleeper
Tsurikomi-goshi = Begging Hands ext
Okuri-ashi-harai = Prance of the Tiger, Glancing Wing
Tai-Otoshi = Taming the Mace
Harai-goshi = Sleeper
Uchi-mata = Gripping Talon, Destructive Twins ext, Spreading Branch, Squeezing the Peach ext
Tsuri-goshi = Locked Wing, Broken Ram, Securing the Storm
Tomoe-nage = Parting Wings, Twist of Fate, Encounter with Danger
Kata-guruma = Bow of Compulsion, Bowing to Buddha, Locking Horns, Calming the Storm
Sumi-gaeshi = Encounter with Danger, Parting Wings, Intercepting the Ram
Hane-makikomi = Triggered Salute, Calming the Storm, Repeated Devastation, Twirling Sacrifice
Sukui-nage = Twirling Sacrifice, Crashing Wings, Crushing Hammer, Escape from Death
Ushiro-goshi = Grasp of Death, Grip of Death
Ura-nage = Grasp of Death, Grip of Death, Escape from Death, Circles of Protection
Hikikomi-gaeshi = Defying the Storm
Tawara-gaeshi = Intercepting the Ram
Kuchiki-taoshi = Dance of Death, Brushing the Storm, Thrusting Wedge ext, Bowing to Buddha

Grappling Techniques of Judo/Ju Jitsu in Kenpo

Juji-jime = Cross of Death, Fatal Cross
Kata-gatame = Sleeper
Hadaka-jime = Escape from Death
Ryote-jime = Heavenly Ascent
Ude-garami = Entangled Wing, Raining Claw ext, Repeated Devastation ext
Waki-gatame = Crossing Talon, Evading the Storm ext
Ude-gatame = Escape from Death, Grip of Death, Thrusting Prong, Raining Claw ext, Marriage of the Rams
Te-gatame = Lone Kimono
Kanuuki-gatame = Securing the Storm
Tate-hishigi = Locking Horns
Nikkyo = Spiraling Twig, Crossing Talon, Snaking Talon, Gift of Destiny, Thrusting Lance (http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/drawings/or_nikkyo.gif.html) 
Kote Gaeshi = Gift of Destiny, Piercing Lance (http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/drawings/or_kote-gaeshi.gif.html)
Shiho-nage = Entangled Wing, Wings of Silk ext (http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/drawings/or_shiho-nage_2.gif.html)


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## MJS (Jun 28, 2006)

simon said:
			
		

> mjs- im studying american kenpo also.
> i was very impressed with it a few years back and have been studying eversince, im waiting to see if im ratified as shodan so i have a clear understanding of kenpo techs,this is why i feel ( in my opinion..which may differ from others lol but always in a freindly and respectful way).
> that i can comment abuot the kenpo/jujitsu techs.


 
Thanks for the clarification.  One thing to keep in mind though.  When I first began training, I was never introduced to the idea of applying these moves on the ground.  There were early discussions on here as well as the Kenpo Net, regarding things that were supposedly missing.  I was the first to say that I felt that ground work was one thing that was lacking.  Needless to say, I had many people telling me that it wasn't so much that the art was lacking, but perhaps it was my training that was lacking, that just because my instructor was unable to show me these things, did not mean that they never existed.  Thats pretty much what changed my way of thinking, due to the fact that I haven't seen how every Kenpo instructor out there, such as Larry Tatum, Ron Chapel, or Joe Palanzo teaches, so how would I know if they're teaching certain things or not.




> my main concern is that kenpo being primaraly a striking art and employs the use of physics for striking, those physics principles differ greatly from the way a grappler/jujitsu practices when striking on the ground.
> i personnaly have always relied on pure grappling when on the ground as opposed to striking, but this was always so i knew i was working my jj.


 
Techniques such as Spiraling Twig, Crossing Talon, Returning Storm, Gift of Destiny and Obsure Claws to name a few, all have grappling elements in them.  Again, I feel that it is important to understand how a grappler operates, so I can adjust my defense accordingly.  Just because I'm not standing, that shouldn't mean that my striking is going to go out the window.  During some sessions, we'll include striking from the various positions, not only to give it more of a real feeling but also to keep ourselves in check to any openings we may have.  Again, I'm not saying that being able to apply some basic techs. on the ground is going to make us an expert grappler.  Is the possibility that in a SD situation the person may have some grappling experience? Sure, but I don't think that the average person is going to execute a textbook shoot.

Mike


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## lenatoi (Aug 4, 2006)

OK     I don't think the issue here is wether the art was origionally intended to work on the ground, but wether it can or not. I beleive it does. given that beleif, I don't think it degenerats the art by saying this element has always been there. 

I also have to say that people beleive that we are giving up our base if we are on our backs. We are not. we still have the ground, use it. The reason people beleive that this aspact is not in kenpo is because they do not see it. Try it before you bash it. 

I've learned to adapt some of my techniques to the ground it's a work in progress. BUT it makes me feel better that I can be on the ground and still do what I've trained to do.

It's there, it's different, it's O.K.


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## psi_radar (Aug 5, 2006)

Hey MJS, long time!

I've seen this debate take many forms, but it's still the same. Since doing some BJJ, though, I have some insight. 

BJJ is derivative of JJJ, which was initially devoloped as a form of fighting for samurai who had lost their weapon, but were fighting against armored opponents. Therefore, major joint locking moves are the only option, since velnerable areas, like the groin and the eyes were protected. 

Kenpo goes for vital areas. The eyes, the groin, the nose, the ears, and many other centrix of the nervous system.

BJJ doesn't see those options. Use them. 

To be more descriptive, say you're mounted. The opponent is teeing off on your head. Poke him in the eye, then reach down, grab hold of the equipment and pull it over your head like you're taking off a shirt. Golly, you're not mounted anymore and you can deal as you like. This ain't the ufc. It's life.


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 5, 2006)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> Hey MJS, long time!
> 
> I've seen this debate take many forms, but it's still the same. Since doing some BJJ, though, I have some insight.
> 
> ...


 
Good points.

Welcome back! It's good to have you here again. artyon:


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2006)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> Hey MJS, long time!
> 
> I've seen this debate take many forms, but it's still the same. Since doing some BJJ, though, I have some insight.
> 
> ...


 
WOW!! What a surprise!! Welcome back dude!!!

You've brought up some great points!  

I'll shoot ya an email later on.  Got alot to catch up on!!

Mike


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## psi_radar (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanks guys!


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Aug 31, 2006)

I can tell you that this is something that I have been experimenting with for about 2 years now and I will say that yes without a doubt that some of the techniques can work on the group.

I use the 1st 3 moves of 5 swords to get out of the guard all the time against trained bjj grapplers.  

establish your base (on your knees). R horizintal outward heel palm to the R floating rib/liver then R heel palm to there solar plexus with at the same time use all the torque to execute a R back elbow to thier L thigh (you do this right and I promise they will let go).  Thier gurad will then be broken. Execute a R pressing forarm strike to thier L thigh and make sure thier L thigh is on the mat (make sure your L hand it up high to check the right leg from kicking you). Then roll your L hand either over or under thier R thigh so that you can either escape by going over thier leg to the 1/2 guard or take thier R legs and pass it it front of you.

You guys play with that and tell me what you think.  If anyone is interested I can take a video clip of me doing to to help explain what I am talking about.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 31, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I can tell you that this is something that I have been experimenting with for about 2 years now and I will say that yes without a doubt that some of the techniques can work on the group.
> 
> I use the 1st 3 moves of 5 swords to get out of the guard all the time against trained bjj grapplers.
> 
> ...


 
Question...against an "experienced" grappler how are you getting the distance and free use of your limbs to do this?  That would be step one which means that they have to have failed to 1) Break your posture and 2) Control your limbs.  Without 1) and 2) someone from inside the guard can do anything they want. In other words more of a bad guard than kenpo working on the ground.

But what are you doing to get free use of the limbs and get your posture before beginning your assault?  That's what interests me the most as the five swords to the targets you selected should at the least open the guard.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Aug 31, 2006)

1st thing:  I am an experienced grappler myself (20+ yrs wrestling, 3 yrs bjj/submission wrestling) so I understnad your point.  This particular escape does not work so well against the open guard or butterfly guard so folks that have a very active guard like that well I have a few other ideas for that.  However, if they are actively trying to tie up my arm this is usualy done by them trying to controll your elbows by pulling towards thier own head.  I simply create a wedge/triangle with my arms (hands close together and elbows apart) and as they are pull up on my arms I roll my elbows out and roll my palms from the up position to palm down thus going with the force and they will lose thier hold because they no longer have a bracing angle to hol on to.  It works well but then you have to then flow right into the escape.

A little birdy told me you were gonna be at Josh's place in PA for the Cacoy, Whitson seminar and I was hoping to finially meet up with you there.  Maybe another event.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 31, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> 1st thing: I am an experienced grappler myself (20+ yrs wrestling, 3 yrs bjj/submission wrestling) so I understnad your point. This particular escape does not work so well against the open guard or butterfly guard so folks that have a very active guard like that well I have a few other ideas for that. However, if they are actively trying to tie up my arm this is usualy done by them trying to controll your elbows by pulling towards thier own head. I simply create a wedge/triangle with my arms (hands close together and elbows apart) and as they are pull up on my arms I roll my elbows out and roll my palms from the up position to palm down thus going with the force and they will lose thier hold because they no longer have a bracing angle to hol on to. It works well but then you have to then flow right into the escape.
> 
> A little birdy told me you were gonna be at Josh's place in PA for the Cacoy, Whitson seminar and I was hoping to finially meet up with you there. Maybe another event.


 
D***! I forgot all about that seminar! ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHH!!! Sorry, had to vent.  I can't believe I forgot about that!  I was supposed to be there, the "little" birdy (If it's who I think it's a BIG birdy) was right.


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## Warrior-Scholar (Sep 29, 2006)

I think the attempt to find grappling applications for the Kenpo material, whether is was there or not from the beginning, is an admiral and important task.  

Would it be more efficient to learn a pure grappling system, then learn a pure striking system and attempt to blend those together or keep one system as the base and adapt the secondary art to meet the needs of the first?  This is not a rhetorical question.  Please give opinions.

It is a repeating question in my mind.   If I learn two disparate systems, then how well will I synthesize these two in a combative scenario?  Does such training create a schizophrenic fighter unable to make correct decisions?  I guess it doesn't have to.  

Each technique in Kenpo should be analyzed and evaluated for use with different styles of fighters during the "what if" phase.  So, even though some techniques deal with tackles etc., what would you do on 5 Swords if someone attempts a single leg takedown after the punch?  How would you adapt?  The only reason I even ask this question is due to the popularity of such fighting on television and the abundance of groundfighting schools out there.  It is simply a way people are learning to fight now.  That may change in 20 years.  

90% of the time the person will have to bridge the gap and effect a takedown.  Thus, shouldn't we spend more time working on Kenpo techniques in this range than from our backs.  On the ground I will resort to the nastiest things in my head because I don't want to be there.  Beware the caged animal!!!  If a grappler is intent on doing those things to me, I doubt he would have committed multiple weapons to a takedown to start the fight.  As mentioned, it is simply harder for a traditional Kenpoist to make techniques work from that position (I didn't say impossible!).  I am merely stating that in adapting our Kenpo to grappling scenarios, shouldn't we focus on the moments just before going to the ground more or at least equally?  Why don't we see more fighters in these so-called "NHB" tournaments accidentally striking illegally?  Do they really all have that much control over their fighting ability?  I seriously doubt it-some of these kids acknowledge training for 2-3 years before stepping into the ring.  I believe many of them don't even think outside the box on some of these issues.  Personally, I don't like to get hurt.  You can bet I will hit someone's mastoid, spine, eyes, testicles and throat if they get that close and go low.  In fact, that is exactly how I train EVERY day.  

By the way, a standing wrist grab is technically grappling.  Many people just assume grappling means "on the ground".  
Now I am rambling...too much training and not enough sleep.  Pardon my imperfections!


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## Ceicei (Oct 5, 2006)

Warrior-Scholar said:


> I think the attempt to find grappling applications for the Kenpo material, whether is was there or not from the beginning, is an admiral and important task.
> 
> Would it be more efficient to learn a pure grappling system, then learn a pure striking system and attempt to blend those together or keep one system as the base and adapt the secondary art to meet the needs of the first? This is not a rhetorical question. Please give opinions.



Well, that is basically what I am doing.  I am currently a 2nd brown in EPAK and white belt testing for yellow in DZRJ.  My intent is to have kenpo as my base and because of jujitsu being my secondary, I will understand the existing grappling parts in the kenpo techniques and make these specific moves better.  Already, I can see a difference with kenpo even with my limited knowledge of jujitsu at this point.



> It is a repeating question in my mind. If I learn two disparate systems, then how well will I synthesize these two in a combative scenario? Does such training create a schizophrenic fighter unable to make correct decisions? I guess it doesn't have to.


Well, I think these two will blend together well once I learn my second art better.  In jujitsu, I will be participating in a freestyle tournament at the end of the month.  We were practicing for that in class now to prepare.  I found that initially in the freestyle matches, I tend to default to kenpo (it is what I knew best and already hardwired into me), but as I warmed up and and relaxed some more, I was able to transition my mind to jujitsu.  Funny, but there are several moves in DZRJ that is similar to Kenpo already, so I am assured that I will do fine.  The more experienced I get with jujitsu, I do not forsee any problems of being able to blend them when needed.


> Each technique in Kenpo should be analyzed and evaluated for use with different styles of fighters during the "what if" phase. So, even though some techniques deal with tackles etc., what would you do on 5 Swords if someone attempts a single leg takedown after the punch? How would you adapt? The only reason I even ask this question is due to the popularity of such fighting on television and the abundance of groundfighting schools out there. It is simply a way people are learning to fight now. That may change in 20 years.
> 
> 90% of the time the person will have to bridge the gap and effect a takedown. Thus, shouldn't we spend more time working on Kenpo techniques in this range than from our backs. On the ground I will resort to the nastiest things in my head because I don't want to be there. Beware the caged animal!!! If a grappler is intent on doing those things to me, I doubt he would have committed multiple weapons to a takedown to start the fight.


Agreed.


> As mentioned, it is simply harder for a traditional Kenpoist to make techniques work from that position (I didn't say impossible!). I am merely stating that in adapting our Kenpo to grappling scenarios, shouldn't we focus on the moments just before going to the ground more or at least equally?



My studio does teach some additional techniques using grappling from the ground kenpo-style (we call them badger techniques).  Most of the badger techniques, however, are geared for the children's curriculum.

I find there is a lot of resistance among the adults, especially from "kenpo purists".  I do not see anything wrong with learning more and cross training with a grappling style.  In fact, I think it is a great idea!  My opinion, I admit, is from the viewpoint as a female who was previously attacked and thus I feel more of a need/emphasis to be able to adapt kenpo in defending from that position.

- Ceicei


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