# Cult of Personality in Taekwondo



## mastercole (Mar 15, 2012)

I am curious what other Taekwondo practitioners think about this subject, and do they feel it is common, or not so common?

A Taekwondo instructor who sets the stage for his own glorification, creating a cult of personality around himself, by either his own actions or by the actions of his students. Students who incessantly carry out the glorification of this type of instructor, even after the instructors death. These students proclaiming him the greatest, toting that other practitioners and instructors are somehow less of everything.

What is all this about?

What are some of the examples of things their followers do that seem "overboard."


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Mar 15, 2012)

I personally havent seen this, but I have no doubt it does go on.


----------



## elder999 (Mar 15, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I personally havent seen this, but I have no doubt it does go on.



Tae Yun Kim.


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 15, 2012)

Am I the only person that thought of Choi Hong-Hi?


----------



## elder999 (Mar 15, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Am I the only person that thought of Choi Hong-Hi?




Probably not.........


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Mar 15, 2012)

Personally, I feel that when things like this go on, it is placing the person above the art.  My sahbumnim always stressed that *no one *is above the art.  When ego comes into play (and is put before chain of command), there will always be problems.  Perversion of the moral and philosophical teachings of TKD (either by conscious perversion or because they did not fully understand it to begin with and are promoting what they _believe_ to be the _true_ teaching).  

I believe that as long as we put the highest emphasis on the art and not any one person and we follow chain of command (although this is assuming that the KJN also puts the teachings of the art of their own ego), the cultish feeling will be a non-issue.

I have witnessed instructors who have a twisted idea/definition of what they were taught, and their twisted ideas of the art are being passed on to their students (and their students' students).  They feel that everyone else is off base, which validates/reinforces the pedestal they have put their instructor on (because obviously their instructor is the _only one_ that possesses the correct ideology/knowledge).  

This may not be where Master Cole was headed with his question, but this has been my personal experience on the topic.  

Maintaining an open mind and empty cup, particularly with seniors, will help to dampen the cultish tendencies.  However, that requires interaction outside your "cult," which may not be something that is encouraged.


----------



## d1jinx (Mar 15, 2012)

EGO.  its all about ego and the need to feel important.  In some cases its a compensation for thier inability to exsist socially within the real world.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 15, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Am I the only person that thought of Choi Hong-Hi?


Actually I was thinking Tae Yun Kim more than Choi, Hong-hi.


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 15, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Actually I was thinking Tae Yun Kim more than Choi, Hong-hi.



Once someone mentioned Tae Yun Kim I thought of her, but given that I'm not in America her practices/name don't spring to mind as easily for me.  I know her and have read lots of opinions about her group, but she just doesn't pop when I think of bad practices.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Mar 15, 2012)

Like it or not we are in a "Personality Driven Business".  I have seen great technicians and instructors not have a large number of students because their were personality issues. I have seen thse who were not great technicians or instructors but good business people with magnetic personalities that have large numbers of students. 

FWIW General Choi does mention a comparison between a martial art and a cult in his book.   I have seen some of his students and followers do what I and others vehemently opposed due to an excessive cult like nature which is to now have his photo at certain ITF V events (can't speak for other groups) and bow to the photo. 
Have been with other groups who did this as well with their deceased leaders  / founders. Maybe it's a cultural thing but I find it distateful. Others may just consider it a sign of respect / ackmowledgement.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 15, 2012)

Ego's have all but ruined the art and I mean all arts. So many instructor forgot the word Humble and so it will always be.


----------



## Zenjael (Mar 15, 2012)

Frankly, a person's ability and words should speak enough for themself. If I find a master to not be that, or a teacher to not actually be so, I stop attending their classes and avoid their students when possible. That's not martial arts, why should I pay to glorify someone more interested in themself, than actually teaching.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 15, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Frankly, a person's ability and words should speak enough for themself. If I find a master to not be that, or a teacher to not actually be so, I stop attending their classes and avoid their students when possible. That's not martial arts, why should I pay to glorify someone more interested in themself, than actually teaching.



And yet you've managed to collect all these dan rankings in so many different styles.  Why is that?


----------



## Zenjael (Mar 15, 2012)

I find life to be very limited, and as such, if I'm to learn as many styles as possible, for the sheer enjoyment of the knowledge and art, then I change schools often. I tend to also keep ties with the schools. I'm hoping, in time, to unify martial artists in my area under an organization to better represent us. Cause there are a LOT in the Washington area, surprisingly. You can find as many styles here as SanFran and New York.

I have never stopped training in the style I began with, Moo Duk Kwan, but I have opted to learn from different schools.

I had the misfortune of being present at two schools when they shut their doors, and to have my own master in Baguazhang pass away, but that is only a small reason why I chose the path I have. What can I say, I'm the slut of martial arts  I get around in this area.

I still speak with about 3/4ths of the teachers I've trained under, and that's cross-state, and country.

If you have any more questions pertaining to my background, or skepticism toward me, I would prefer you PM me. No reason for there to be contention on the public boards, I think.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 15, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have seen some of his students and followers do what I and others vehemently opposed due to an excessive cult like nature which is to now have his photo at certain ITF V events (can't speak for other groups) and bow to the photo.
> Have been with other groups who did this as well with their deceased leaders  / founders. Maybe it's a cultural thing but I find it distateful. Others may just consider it a sign of respect / ackmowledgement.



It is a cultural thing.  It's not uncommon within Japanese dojo to have a picture of the deceased founder such as Ueshiba OSensei of aikido at the shomen, roughly 'front'.  The class starts with a bow in in the direction of the shomen.  I believe it's a carry over from Shinto, but no one is thinking of worship in _rei_.  It is an acknowledgement and thanks to OSensei as we ready our minds for practice.


----------



## puunui (Mar 15, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have seen great technicians and instructors not have a large number of students because their were personality issues. I have seen thse who were not great technicians or instructors but good business people with magnetic personalities that have large numbers of students.



I prefer the great technician/instructor over the one with the magnetic personality, although I have to say most of my teachers had both.


----------



## puunui (Mar 15, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> It is a cultural thing.  It's not uncommon within Japanese dojo to have a picture of the deceased founder such as Ueshiba OSensei of aikido at the shomen, roughly 'front'.  The class starts with a bow in in the direction of the shomen.  I believe it's a carry over from Shinto, but no one is thinking of worship in _rei_.  It is an acknowledgement and thanks to OSensei as we ready our minds for practice.



I've seen a picture of Kano Sensei in judo dojo and also Tohei Sensei's picture in Ki Society dojo. Some hapkido dojang put photos of GM Ji and GM Choi up on the wall as well. My original hapkido teacher had a big picture of himself up on the wall of his dojang in Korea, and then here. When he retired, he gave me that portrait, which other students really want. He gave me all his stuff really and there is still more he said I have to pick up. I don't have any negative feelings about hanging portrait photos of one's teacher on the walls of the school.


----------



## Buka (Mar 15, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Tae Yun Kim.



I owe you a debt of thanks. A serious debt of thanks.

I have told a story for over thirty five years, never once knowing the name of the person I was speaking of.
 Back in the seventies, I was at a tournament somewhere in New England. I forget where, I went to several hundred of them. There was a woman Master there, with about a hundred of her students. All I knew was their school was from Vermont.

I had never seen true cult behavior before. Read about it, sure. Seen it on TV, of course. But I had never seen it first hand. Until that tournament. A woman, a short Korean woman with high heels, was standing on a table with a hundred of her students sitting around her. They were all in gi, she was in white and red clothes. (the heels were red) She was stomping on the table and speaking to them like a TV evangelist, hands gesticulating wildly, a smile as big as as a politicians on election day. Her students were mesmerized, swaying too and fro, chanting and cheering. It seemed like I was watching the filming of a really bad movie. But not a Martial Arts movie, more like a "I'll drink the cool aide" movie. It was kind of scary.  No, check that, it was really fricken scary. (and I was a cop) I have always told people that is was the strangest thing I have ever seen in Martial Arts. Hell, it was the strangest thing I've ever seen anywhere.

But I didn't know who it was. Until your post. I Googled her name, thinking, "Nah, it couldn't be her, could it?"
And there she was. For I could never forget that face. Not in a million years.

My deepest thanks for your post.

One other thing....
Her students couldn't fight worth a lick. They could chant their asses off, but that was it.


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 15, 2012)

WTeverlovingF is THAT all about?



elder999 said:


> Tae Yun Kim.


----------



## ATC (Mar 16, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Tae Yun Kim.


Wohh!!!!


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 16, 2012)

I'm surprised no one recognizes her as a columnist of TKDTimes.  There was heavy discussion started by an ex-member or two on another site about how it really is a cult over there.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 16, 2012)

mastercole said:


> These students proclaiming him the greatest, toting that other practitioners and instructors are somehow less of everything.
> What is all this about?



People do this with specific persons as well as specific organizations started by these persons.  They 'tote' others as 'somehow less of everything' because they feel by putting others down they can somehow lift themselves up.  This can stem from an inferiority complex to simply not being nice people.  I see this as particularly present on message boards due to distance and safety.  



> What are some of the examples of things their followers do that seem "overboard."



Continually covering for dishonorable practices by seniors.  Misdirecting discussion on rewritten histories.  Attacking others directly or indirectly with differing opinions on these types of individuals.  Not honestly discussing their faults as well as their achievements.  Condemning in others the exact things they give praise to these individuals.


----------



## shesulsa (Mar 16, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> People do this with specific persons as well as specific organizations started by these persons.  They 'tote' others as 'somehow less of everything' because they feel by putting others down they can somehow lift themselves up.  This can stem from an inferiority complex to simply not being nice people.  I see this as particularly present on message boards due to distance and safety.
> 
> 
> 
> Continually covering for dishonorable practices by seniors.  Misdirecting discussion on rewritten histories.  Attacking others directly or indirectly with differing opinions on these types of individuals.  Not honestly discussing their faults as well as their achievements.  Condemning in others the exact things they give praise to these individuals.



Yep.  Do you think personality cults are particularly rampant in Korean arts or martial arts in general?


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 16, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Yep.  Do you think personality cults are particularly rampant in Korean arts or martial arts in general?


Martial arts in general.  This is not limited to just KMA.  I have seen it in JMA and CMA's as well.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 16, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Yep.  Do you think personality cults are particularly rampant in Korean arts or martial arts in general?



I feel that it can certainly be present in any art.  I will admit though, having participated in numerous discussion, on numerous boards, on numerous arts, it has been my experience that KMA's can be considered a leader in this area.  That is a general statement however, and I should note that it is centered on a small though vocal minority.  Most students/teachers in a particular art know the pros and cons of their art, especially in this day and age where facts and history are easily checked.  And they are very honest and forthright in the positives as well as the negatives associated with the art in question.  

It is an easy thing to determine.  Simply see who is able to honestly converse on a topic/person/art/organization, discussing both pros and cons equally and not attacking those of a differing opinion or attacking those that bring up the negatives in an honest conversation.  Those that are able to honestly able to discuss the accomplishments of a person/art/organization as well as the things that aren't quite so favorable.  To do this is a positive experience for all.  It allows us to honestly look at a person/history/organization and identify the positive and avoid the negative.  To white-wash things is to avoid looking at all facets/angles.  No one is perfect.  No organization is perfect.  No art is perfect.  And being a 'senior' doesn't not make one perfect.  Indeed, we should be able to factually look at 'seniors' to see what was done right, what was done wrong and where improvement can and should be made.  

This is growth.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Mar 16, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> WTeverlovingF is THAT all about?



Well put...


----------



## shesulsa (Mar 16, 2012)

Buka said:


> I owe you a debt of thanks. A serious debt of thanks.
> 
> I have told a story for over thirty five years, never once knowing the name of the person I was speaking of.
> Back in the seventies, I was at a tournament somewhere in New England. I forget where, I went to several hundred of them. There was a woman Master there, with about a hundred of her students. All I knew was their school was from Vermont.
> ...



I signed up for her newsletter for sh*ts and giggles.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 16, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I signed up for her newsletter for sh*ts and giggles.


Cool...let us know the flavor of the kool-aide, when you get a chance.


----------



## shesulsa (Mar 16, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Cool...let us know the flavor of the kool-aide, when you get a chance.



Oh I won't be drinking it.  Honestly, having removed myself from a cult of personality I am trying to absorb this kind of information and expose these tactics as I think traditional martial arts can live without this kind of crap.


----------



## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I am curious what other Taekwondo practitioners think about this subject, and do they feel it is common, or not so common?



I think we have to first define what a "cult" is. I did a quick search and found this page: http://cultdefinition.com/

I am assuming that people are talking about the negative types of cults. 

I think in Korea, martial arts cults are not common, at least not in taekwondo or hapkido. I think that the pioneers of these arts are the anti-thesis of cults in that they give their students great freedom to explore and expand their art in any direction that they choose. The pioneers are not control freaks, which I think is one of the requirements of cult like behavior, asserting complete control over a cult member, to the point of isolating them from outside friends and family. I don't see that happening. None of my teachers have ever told me I can no longer speak to my parents, for example. 




mastercole said:


> A Taekwondo instructor who sets the stage for his own glorification, creating a cult of personality around himself, by either his own actions or by the actions of his students. Students who incessantly carry out the glorification of this type of instructor, even after the instructors death. These students proclaiming him the greatest, toting that other practitioners and instructors are somehow less of everything.



I think sort of thing is more popular outside of Korea, than within. I also think that martial arts attracts the type of individual who would be most suseptible to cult behavior, those with low self esteem, in need of a surrogate parental figure, etc. 




mastercole said:


> What are some of the examples of things their followers do that seem "overboard."



I think in the context of religious cults, the cult is usually a breakaway group from a mainstream religion, where the leader sets himself up as some sort of prophet or messiah. The messiah rejects the teachings of the mainstream and instead probably spends an inordinate amount of time explaining or convincing members or potential members why the mainstream group is wrong, flawed, corrupt, misguided, whatever. They take control and radically change the teachings of the mainstream group from which they came, and make their own ceremonies, certificates, and that sort of thing, saying this is "better". 

I think a lot of break off groups from taekwondo and hapkido have leaders that fall into this category, why the kukkiwon or the kha groups are bad, you don't need their certification, I'll give you mine with my signature on it instead, they are sport we are real martial arts, etc. I think the isolation from the mainstream and the extreme criticism of the mainstream is what sets the martial arts cult types from the rest. This is by the way, the anti thesis of the way that korean martial arts have developed, with a flexible tolerant philosophy, the great freedom that practitioners have to sculpt the art to their own interests, tastes and abilities, as well as the general feeling of inclusion which is the hallmark of both hapkido and taekwondo.


----------



## troubleenuf (Mar 16, 2012)

Went to YK Kims seminar in Florida a few years back... got the same feeling from that.  Kind of if YK Kim told his students to do ANYTHING they would do their best to do it without giving it a second thought.


----------



## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

troubleenuf said:


> Kind of if YK Kim told his students to do ANYTHING they would do their best to do it without giving it a second thought.



With a good teacher, that type of attitude from the student is good and will lead to much growth and progress. But if you are unfortunate to have a "bad" teacher, then that type of attitude may lead you down the wrong road. The key is to take responsibility for one's own learning and choose the best teachers possible. This is the single most important decision to be made by a student, the selection of a teacher, assuming that the teacher accepts you as a student.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think we have to first define what a "cult" is. I did a quick search and found this page: http://cultdefinition.com/



I think perhaps it would be better to look at the definition of 'cults of personality'.  According to Wiki;


> A *cult of personality* arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise.[SUP][1][/SUP] Cults of personality are usually associated with dictatorships. Sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the _cult of personality_ holds parallels with what Weber defined as "charismatic authority". A cult of personality is similar to hero worship, except that it is established by mass media and propaganda.



Hero worship would be the key in regards to the direction the thread is taking.  



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> I think that the pioneers of these arts are the anti-thesis of cults in  that they give their students great freedom to explore and expand their  art in any direction that they choose.



It agree that this is the anti-thesis of the topic of discussion.  These pioneers probably encouraged students free expression of exploration in expanding the art.  After all, this is what they themselves did.  And any pioneer would/should be applauded for encouraging this.  Which would cause me to question your following comments;



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> I think a lot of break off groups from taekwondo and hapkido have  leaders that fall into this category, why the kukkiwon or the kha groups  are bad, you don't need their certification, I'll give you mine with my  signature on it instead, they are sport we are real martial arts, etc.



Since the pioneers encouraged free expression to explore and expand the art in question, they may well break off from the original group.  Just because they then break off doesn't mean that they necessarily portray the original group as, to use your words, 'bad'.  But again, as I mentioned in my original posting in the thread, an honest discussion of the pros and cons of the original group should be encouraged and not attacked.  Anything else falls into covering up and hero worship which is in the very definition of 'cults of personality'.  In regards to certifications issued, the new group would/should indeed issue their own as the focus, goals, teaching or tactics may be different.  It wouldn't make sense to issue a certificate that does not reflect what you teach or train in.


----------



## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> EGO.  its all about ego and the need to feel important.  In some cases its a compensation for thier inability to exsist socially within the real world.



I think there is truth here. Much of the martial arts, especially at the higher levels, deals with relationships. If you don't have any, or don't like the ones you have, then I guess the only thing left to do is go form your own group, and then isolate your members from interacting with the larger world while at the same time criticizing those who are able to function in that real worth. No one wonder people attack Steven Lopez so much, they can't compete with him, or even understand what it takes to do what he does, so the only thing left is to arm chair quarterback him.


----------



## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Actually I was thinking Tae Yun Kim more than Choi, Hong-hi.



I met her a couple of times. The first time was at the grand opening of my friend and senior's new dojang. She rolled up in a brand new mercedes, escorted by two young males wearing matching suits who followed her around everywhere she went. She did the "he can do, she can do, why not me?" pep talk, and then she was gone. She has done quite well for herself outside of the martial arts, which at this point is a hobby for her.


----------



## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Oh I won't be drinking it.  Honestly, having removed myself from a cult of personality I am trying to absorb this kind of information and expose these tactics as I think traditional martial arts can live without this kind of crap.



Looking at your screenname, I think I know what your prior organization was. I think. Let me ask you this. Do you think there is a difference between publicly recognizing and showing respect for one's teachers as well as the creators of the art that you study and cult behavior? I was raised to respect my elders, realizing that they are not always perfect people. So as to the pioneers of the arts that I study, I always discuss the positives of what they have done, because I figure that there are more than enough people out there who only focus on the negative, or what they think or consider negative, from their personal and cultural perspective. But not many realize or know about how hard they worked in creating what we all take for granted, so I talk about that. 

Does that make me a cult member, like some would like to accuse me of being? Or does that show that I understand the culture from which the arts that I study originated from, where others might not?


----------



## shesulsa (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> Looking at your screenname, I think I know what your prior organization was. I think. Let me ask you this. Do you think there is a difference between publicly recognizing and showing respect for one's teachers as well as the creators of the art that you study and cult behavior? I was raised to respect my elders, realizing that they are not always perfect people. So as to the pioneers of the arts that I study, I always discuss the positives of what they have done, because I figure that there are more than enough people out there who only focus on the negative, or what they think or consider negative, from their personal and cultural perspective. But not many realize or know about how hard they worked in creating what we all take for granted, so I talk about that.
> 
> Does that make me a cult member, like some would like to accuse me of being? Or does that show that I understand the culture from which the arts that I study originated from, where others might not?



It is very easy to dwell on the negative, and the art I've trained in is really such a neat art to study. There is quite the difference between *showing the earned respect* and consideration for a talented martial artist and *worshipping* him.  I don't think that kind of position earns anyone the right to be abusive of people, of policy, of personal responsibility.  Their talent and knowledge cannot make up for the damage they could potentially cause others.

So, yes I see a difference and no, I don't think you're a cult member if you focus on the positive.


----------



## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I don't think that kind of position earns anyone  the right to be abusive of people, of policy, of personal  responsibility.  Their talent and knowledge cannot make up for the  damage they could potentially cause others.



Thank you for  your post. I think there is a thin line sometimes on what is hard  training, and what is abusive behavior. Things that I thought may have  been abusive turned out later to be actually a gift that was given to  very few. There is also the boot camp theory of having to free people of  the preconceptions before building them up. But somehow I don't think  you are really talking about those issues.


----------



## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think in the context of religious cults, the cult is usually a breakaway group from a mainstream religion, where the leader sets himself up as some sort of prophet or messiah. The messiah rejects the teachings of the mainstream and instead probably spends an inordinate amount of time explaining or convincing members or potential members why the mainstream group is wrong, flawed, corrupt, misguided, whatever. They take control and radically change the teachings of the mainstream group from which they came, and make their own ceremonies, certificates, and that sort of thing, saying this is "better".
> 
> I think a lot of break off groups from taekwondo and hapkido have leaders that fall into this category, why the kukkiwon or the kha groups are bad, you don't need their certification, I'll give you mine with my signature on it instead, they are sport we are real martial arts, etc. I think the isolation from the mainstream and the extreme criticism of the mainstream is what sets the martial arts cult types from the rest. This is by the way, the anti thesis of the way that korean martial arts have developed, with a flexible tolerant philosophy, the great freedom that practitioners have to sculpt the art to their own interests, tastes and abilities, as well as the general feeling of inclusion which is the hallmark of both hapkido and taekwondo.



Negative cultish behavior can certainly spin out of control.

I have several Mormon students. Our main dojang is in Chardon, Ohio, right next to Kirtland, Ohio, which is the root of the Mormon religion.  Over the holidays one one of these students was a guest at my home.  We ended up talking a bit about Jeffery Lundgren a convicted mass murderer. He was a Mormon Temple tour guide living at the Temple. He did this very thing and developed a small cult following. 

This student told me that Lundgren, among other false claims, put a lot of effort in attacking the main group, pointing out all their mistakes and constantly stating they were corrupt and that the main Mormon Church was on the verge of collapse and members would be turning away from the main Church in droves looking for a new leader to follow, Lundgren. He convinced his followers of all this. (good thing they did not have internet discussion boards back then, or he could have had even more followers) Later when members realized that he was a fraud, he called members into a barn on Chardon Rd, right down the road from my dojang, and executed them all, burying in the dirt floor of the barn.

He was executed for the mass murders, here in Ohio in 2006.


----------



## shesulsa (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> Thank you for  your post. I think there is a thin line sometimes on what is hard  training, and what is abusive behavior. Things that I thought may have  been abusive turned out later to be actually a gift that was given to  very few. There is also the boot camp theory of having to free people of  the preconceptions before building them up. But somehow I don't think  you are really talking about those issues.



You would be correct.


----------



## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> I've seen a picture of Kano Sensei in judo dojo and also Tohei Sensei's picture in Ki Society dojo. Some hapkido dojang put photos of GM Ji and GM Choi up on the wall as well. My original hapkido teacher had a big picture of himself up on the wall of his dojang in Korea, and then here. When he retired, he gave me that portrait, which other students really want. He gave me all his stuff really and there is still more he said I have to pick up. I don't have any negative feelings about hanging portrait photos of one's teacher on the walls of the school.



No, I don't see that as a negative either, I remember visiting GM Chong Soo Lee's dojang in Montreal and seeing a picture of GM Chong Woo Lee hanging in the dojang gym. In the photo he was wearing the white dogi with the black diamond stitching. It was a very clear photo and I remember thinking if I had a photo that clear of GM Lee wearing that uniform, I might hang it in my dojang too.


----------



## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Tae Yun Kim.



She use to go by Kyong Ae Fontaine.

I don't know much about what she REALLY does with her students. In the Korean community I have heard that she is admired for being a successful business woman. And I have met her in person and spoke to her about her time as an official for the US Taekwondo Team at either the 1st or 2nd WTF World Taekwondo Championships, and she was very nice and easy to talk to. I think she genuinely loves Taekwondo.


----------



## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

troubleenuf said:


> Went to YK Kims seminar in Florida a few years back... got the same feeling from that.  Kind of if YK Kim told his students to do ANYTHING they would do their best to do it without giving it a second thought.



I know GM Kim, he is from Jidokwan. He is a smart businessman and motivational speaker. I think his students like what he does for them, but I don't feel that it's cultish in anyway.  He gave me a copy of his big book on Taekwondo business, I think he published it in the late 80's. I still have it and it still has plenty of relevant "business minded" material in it.


----------



## Gorilla (Mar 16, 2012)

I have seen this type of behavior!!!!  Never from the truly talented!


----------



## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

A while back I had a guy visit my school who practiced some kind of kungfu, he wanted to watch our athletes train. Since he knew a friend of mine, I agreed. I noticed on the inside of his forearms he had some Chinese character tattoos so I asked him what it said as it did not look familiar to me. He said it was his masters name. Then he lifted up his shirt and showed me a tattoo of his masters face likeness with the name of the school tattooed below it. I asked him if it hurt, he said no and that 10 other students went with the master to get them. I found that really odd.

I don't have any tattoos but if I decided to get one, it would not be a another man's logo, name, dojang or face on my body.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Mar 17, 2012)

I think that it is natural to respect your instructor and if they have a certain place in the rank hierarchy of your group become conditioned to believe that what they teach you is "Right". I recall that at my first course with General Choi after having trained 18 years with some of the highest ranking Americans, he would say something about a technical standard for a technique and my reaction was "that's wrong".  I would then check the text and find him to be 95+% consistent with what it said. You could see how, like the old telephone game some things got changed as they passed from person to person. 
For those who are wondering about the other 5%, that discrepancy had to do with refinements, revisions, corrections, and updates to the text, as well as some communications issues.  Taking that stuff out of the equation, as I went to addittional courses I found him to be 99+% consistent.


----------



## Archtkd (Mar 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think there is truth here. Much of the martial arts, especially at the higher levels, deals with relationships. If you don't have any, or don't like the ones you have, then I guess the only thing left to do is go form your own group, and then isolate your members from interacting with the larger world while at the same time criticizing those who are able to function in that real worth. No one wonder people attack Steven Lopez so much, they can't compete with him, or even understand what it takes to do what he does, so the only thing left is to arm chair quarterback him.



This got me to thinking, I've a number of good taekwondo teachers and I've never heard the most senior ones among them ever criticize another mainstream martial art or tell me Kukkiwon taekwondo is superior in any way to another martial art. I've never heard them make comparisons between Kukkkiwonn style taekwondo and karate or kungfu, with a view of showing that one is superior to the other. None of my elder senior teachers, for example, have ever told me Koreans created taekwondo because they saw serious shortcomings in karate, kungfu or Western boxing.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Mar 18, 2012)

I think if you are going to alienate yourself and school, then thats fine, but you cant speak negatively of other arts or orgs. Our school has nothing to do with kukkiwon for instance, but you wont hear anyone bagging out on the kukkiwon either, in fact most where I train dont know what the kukkiwon is. I am close friends with some seniors in the club and behind closed doors they will be quite open about their feelings about the kukkiwon, but I am a rare exception, and in front of the students they will never speak ill of kukkiwon or other arts, which I think is the right ting to do. In fact we had a good young, talented kid training with us recently and his goal was to compete and my instructor was the first one to suggest to his parents that he should change to a kukkiwon club if thats his goal. In this day and age of internet and so much readily available information, it would be quite hard to build a "cult like" club by bagging out on opposition because its just so easy for students to do their own research and realise they've been fed lies.


----------



## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> This got me to thinking, I've a number of good taekwondo teachers and I've never heard the most senior ones among them ever criticize another mainstream martial art or tell me Kukkiwon taekwondo is superior in any way to another martial art. I've never heard them make comparisons between Kukkkiwonn style taekwondo and karate or kungfu, with a view of showing that one is superior to the other. None of my elder senior teachers, for example, have ever told me Koreans created taekwondo because they saw serious shortcomings in karate, kungfu or Western boxing.



Seniors and the pioneers will sometimes speak ill of certain individuals, but in general not the art itself. Personally, I am glad that there are so many choices today, such that everyone has a much better chance of finding a good fit for themselves, if they choose to stay in the martial arts for a long time.


----------



## Gorilla (Mar 18, 2012)

Ralph that is the sign of a great instructor Master.  If he is not going to provide the right service to a student he refers him/her to a school that is a better fit.  The whole idea is to help people achieve their goals.  I know a few instructors who are like this.  Unfortunately many are not probably about fifty/fifty.  We train with multiple instructors and coaches and trainers in multiple arts.  This is frowned upon by many but it works very well for us.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Mar 18, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Ralph that is the sign of a great instructor Master.  If he is not going to provide the right service to a student he refers him/her to a school that is a better fit.  The whole idea is to help people achieve their goals.  I know a few instructors who are like this.  Unfortunately many are not probably about fifty/fifty.  We train with multiple instructors and coaches and trainers in multiple arts.  This is frowned upon by many but it works very well for us.


Yes he is a great instructor, and I think its important that a school doesnt pretend to be something its not. If you dont provide what your student requires then its your responsibility to point them in the right direction in my opinion


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 19, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *puunui*
> 
> Much of the martial arts, especially at the higher levels, deals with relationships. If you don't have any, or don't like the ones you have, then I guess the only thing left to do is go form your own group, and then isolate your members from interacting with the larger world while at the same time criticizing those who are able to function in that real worth.



Hmmm, this is assuming that the goal is to isolate one's members from something.  That is a pretty sweeping brush stroke to apply to this topic.  It could be that the 'larger world' as you put it is an organization who's goals are not the same as what the school/instructor(s)/students need or want.  The fact that they don't need/want to be part of this organization doesn't imply that they are 'isolating' themselves.  To go a step further, it is also plausible that the organization has followed a path of conduct that the school/instructor(s)/students don't wish to follow or associate themselves with.  This is called free choice.  And there is no justifiable reason to criticize them for choosing a different path.  Indeed, to do such is to serve the very topic of this thread by simply replacing a 'person' with an 'organization'.  Neither path is productive.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 19, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Hmmm, this is assuming that the goal is to isolate one's members from something.  That is a pretty sweeping brush stroke to apply to this topic.  It could be that the 'larger world' as you put it is an organization who's goals are not the same as what the school/instructor(s)/students need or want.  The fact that they don't need/want to be part of this organization doesn't imply that they are 'isolating' themselves.  To go a step further, it is also plausible that the organization has followed a path of conduct that the school/instructor(s)/students don't wish to follow or associate themselves with.  This is called free choice.  And there is no justifiable reason to criticize them for choosing a different path.  Indeed, to do such is to serve the very topic of this thread by simply replacing a 'person' with an 'organization'.  Neither path is productive.



Then, by the same logic applied, there is no justifiable reason for the school, or person, that broke away to criticize the larger org once they disassociate themselves from it.  Nor is there a justifiable reason to continue questioning seniors and the overall logic of the organization, since they are no longer part of that org.


----------



## Carol (Mar 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> Personally, I am glad that there are so many choices today, such that everyone has a much better chance of finding a good fit for themselves, if they choose to stay in the martial arts for a long time.



Absolutely agree.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 19, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Then, by the same logic applied, there is no justifiable reason for the school, or person, that broke away to criticize the larger org once they disassociate themselves from it. Nor is there a justifiable reason to continue questioning seniors and the overall logic of the organization, since they are no longer part of that org.



Actually, no. You're comparing apples and oranges Jeremy. If a school/instructor broke away from an organization and began their own art/organization because the first did not represent what they taught or believed in, then someone still within the first organization has no justifiable reason to comment negatively on that school/instructor. Membership in the first organization is not required to teach the art, to receive promotion, to gain continuing education etc. It is a free choice to belong or not to belong. Breaking off from an organization/art and forming a new one is something that has a massive amount of historical precedence in the martial arts. Indeed, many seniors from several types of arts felt it was the highest form of complimenting one's instructor(s) by taking their instruction and adding on to it and surpassing themselves. So someone still within said organization really has no justifiable reason to criticize anyone that has chosen to move on to something else. Many legitimate reasons can exist for just such a move.

Conversely, if the reason for such a break is the result of not wishing to associate with said organization for what many would feel are legitimate reasons, there should be no problem with discussing that with people that are, or may be interested in the reason(s). Commenting negatively about someone expressing their opinion on such a matter is simply an attempt to try and silence them.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 19, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Actually, no. You're comparing apples and oranges Jeremy. If a school/instructor broke away from an organization and began their own art/organization because the first did not represent what they taught or believed in, then someone still within the first organization has no justifiable reason to comment negatively on that school/instructor.


According to who? You making a very specific statement when in fact it subjective.  Just because the person broke away does not necessarily mean they are free of blame for any disagreement.  For all we know that person wanted to be promoted quicker through the org and when he/she couldn't have it, they broke away so they can just org hop to get the promotions they wanted.  With that scenario the org would have every right to criticize....If the person was a part of KKW and then breaks away from them and forms another org.  Then person teaches outdated KKW curriculum, the KKW has every right to let people know that the person is not teaching KKW curriculum correctly.



> Membership in the first organization is not required to teach the art, to receive promotion, to gain continuing education etc. It is a free choice to belong or not to belong.


Not always the case.  There are cases that you have to be part of the org to able to teach the org's curriculum, receive rank in that system.  



> Breaking off from an organization/art and forming a new one is something that has a massive amount of historical precedence in the martial arts. Indeed, many seniors from several types of arts felt it was the highest form of complimenting one's instructor(s) by taking their instruction and adding on to it and surpassing themselves.


This an apple/orange comparison.  If you have the blessing of your senior to make your own, then why would the senior criticize you later?  If it is people within that organization that the senior is in charge of then that is a totally different issue.



> So someone still within said organization really has no justifiable reason to criticize anyone that has chosen to move on to something else. Many legitimate reasons can exist for just such a move.


Right and many illegitimate reason can exist as well.



> Conversely, if the reason for such a break is the result of not wishing to associate with said organization for what many would feel are legitimate reasons, there should be no problem with discussing that with people that are, or may be interested in the reason(s). Commenting negatively about someone expressing their opinion on such a matter is simply an attempt to try and silence them.


So then orgs are not allowed to express their opinion on such a matter but individuals are free to say whatever?


----------



## shesulsa (Mar 19, 2012)

Look - people (even masters) lie.  You can't count on any one version of he-said-she-said to be 100% factual simply from the nature of who we are as humans.

The cult mentality is usually people (usually the ones in charge) who are afforded leniency and special consideration where none other would receive such treatment up to and including (in some cases) legal matters and monetary agreements, investigations and extra leniency with affection, abuse behind the mask of "traditional training," and questionable promotion or demotion.  Masters who claim rights to special privileges such as these are often engaging in predatory grooming with various individuals for various purposes.  

These traits are self-evident, though by the nature of grooming can be hard to recognize once one is in deep.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 19, 2012)

miguksaram said:
			
		

> Just because the person broke away does not necessarily mean they are free of blame for any disagreement. For all we know that person wanted to be promoted quicker through the org and when he/she couldn't have it, they broke away so they can just org hop to get the promotions they wanted.



Do you have any examples? Do you think any seniors have done this Jeremy?



> With that scenario the org would have every right to criticize....If the person was a part of KKW and then breaks away from them and forms another org. Then person teaches outdated KKW curriculum, the KKW has every right to let people know that the person is not teaching KKW curriculum correctly.



But we weren't talking about the KKW or someone teaching an outdated version of their curriculum. We were discussing breaking away from an organization that didn't represent what was being taught or because the school/instructor didn't agree with a particular path the organization was following. And looking at your statement further, what would be the issue with teaching an 'outdated' KKW curriculum? Would that in turn mean it was irrelevant information when it was 'in date'? 



> Not always the case. There are cases that you have to be part of the org to able to teach the org's curriculum, receive rank in that system.



Really? What system has only one organization that one had to belong to in order to obtain rank?



> This an apple/orange comparison. If you have the blessing of your senior to make your own, then why would the senior criticize you later? If it is people within that organization that the senior is in charge of then that is a totally different issue.



You failed to understand my point in perspective and the context in which it was made. The point was that many instructors give their blessings to go beyond what they've done. This is something that should be a common standard within the arts. 



> Right and many illegitimate reason can exist as well.



Please provide some examples that are within the context of the statements that I've made.


----------



## armortkd (Mar 19, 2012)

This is a very interesting discussion Master Cole! There's an TKD non-profit organization here in Jacksonville that is based thru a Christian ministry. I helped them out then left because people were ugly to each other, and I left after I found out that their leader/master was manipulating/misleading the group as a whole. I've always thought of them as developing a "culture" but not as a "cult" of sorts. Very interesting, I rethinking this now! 

After reading numerous posts on this thread, it's just sad how this happens at various levels with TKD as well as other martial arts. We see students revering their master instructor to the point that: their instructor manipulates/misleads them, being prevented them from growing, sacrifice money and time, etc. 

Who else sees this trend?
1. A head master forms their own organization because: falling out with their master/organization because of money, rank issues, power/control.
2. Their students revere their master as the foremost TKD expert.
3. Black belts teach many classes for free or spread their organization by promoting students fast. The master doesn't teach at all or maybe just black belt instructor classes.
4. The master was an Olympic delegate for TKD but isn't a member of the USTU/USAT ;-)


----------



## mastercole (Mar 19, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Ralph that is the sign of a great instructor Master.  If he is not going to provide the right service to a student he refers him/her to a school that is a better fit.  The whole idea is to help people achieve their goals.  I know a few instructors who are like this.  Unfortunately many are not probably about fifty/fifty.  We train with multiple instructors and coaches and trainers in multiple arts.  This is frowned upon by many but it works very well for us.



I believe that a good instructor/leader will encourage their *highly skilled* students to train with other teachers/coaches. I do believe it is a mistake to encourage unskilled students to train with other instructors. 

I also think that most practitioners have trained in multiple martial arts, at one time or another. For purposes of this thread, from my own personal experience, I also believe that cult of personality instructors are more likely to encourage, or demand their students of all skill ranges, not train with or be a part of large international martial arts organizations, sometime creating their own "systems" or styles from a mish-mash of things they themselves never had any significant training in. I see less cult of personality from instructors who mingle there students freely on an international level in large international organizations.

On another note, someone just sent me this link to this school in Florida.  Interesting what comes up when I searched Google for this group.  http://www.oomyungdoe-cfl.com/?page_id=16


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> On another note, someone just sent me this link to this school in Florida. Interesting what comes up when I searched Google for this group. http://www.oomyungdoe-cfl.com/?page_id=16



Looking through the site, it looks like he came to the U.S. from Korea in 1972. Were you searching for this school because you wish to seek training from him?


----------



## mastercole (Mar 19, 2012)

armortkd said:


> This is a very interesting discussion Master Cole! There's an TKD non-profit organization here in Jacksonville that is based thru a Christian ministry. I helped them out then left because people were ugly to each other, and I left after I found out that their leader/master was manipulating/misleading the group as a whole. I've always thought of them as developing a "culture" but not as a "cult" of sorts. Very interesting, I rethinking this now! After reading numerous posts on this thread, it's just sad how this happens at various levels with TKD as well as other martial arts. We see students revering their master instructor to the point that: their instructor manipulates/misleads them, being prevented them from growing, sacrifice money and time, etc. Who else sees this trend?1. A head master forms their own organization because: falling out with their master/organization because of money, rank issues, power/control.2. Their students revere their master as the foremost TKD expert.3. Black belts teach many classes for free or spread their organization by promoting students fast. The master doesn't teach at all or maybe just black belt instructor classes.4. The master was an Olympic delegate for TKD but isn't a member of the USTU/USAT ;-)



Response to: 

#1. For me, I see that American's often break away from their instructors and I think that in the context of Taekwondo most of the break ups were really not necessary. But they happened anyway and then the American Taekwondoin sometimes ends up on a lost path, without good seniors, without good advise, without good sources of learning more. This spirals into all the weirdness that exist in martial arts and Taekwondo.

#2. I don't like this, at all. It's creepy and either on the fringe, or smack dab in the middle of lunacy.

#3. I don't see a problem with black belts teaching classes, as long as they are qualified and that can depend on a persons definition of qualified. I also don't see anything wrong with the dojang kwanjang never teaching classes, or only teaching black belts. As long as the instruction at the dojang is of good quality, it does not matter who is teaching, the owner, or one of their instructors.

#4. "The master was an Olympic delegate for TKD but isn't a member of the USTU/USAT ;-)"  I'm in this category so I don't see a problem with it unless the person is lying.  But I'm not lying about it.  During the time of my appointment I was a USTU member, USA Team Leader to the World Olympic Qualifier, President of the USTU/WTF State Taekwondo Association for Ohio and involved in other official Taekwondo business.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 19, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Do you have any examples? Do you think any seniors have done this Jeremy?


Yes, I do have examples.  None of which I will discuss publicly or privately with people I do not know that well.  Yes, I am sure there are seniors out there who have done this...and when I say seniors I am not referring to any specific martial art.





> But we weren't talking about the KKW or someone teaching an outdated version of their curriculum. We were discussing breaking away from an organization that didn't represent what was being taught or because the school/instructor didn't agree with a particular path the organization was following.


What I was addressing was your post that basically says that  people who break away from an org have every write to criticize that org, yet the org has no right to criticize and individual who breaks away from them.  Under certain circumstances that may be true but no under all circumstances.  The KKW example was just that...and example.  You can replace KKW with JKA or Kodokan or whatever org has a set curriculum that must be taught, followed and learned in order to advance in ranking within that organization.



> And looking at your statement further, what would be the issue with  teaching an 'outdated' KKW curriculum? Would that in turn mean it was  irrelevant information when it was 'in date'?


No it means that things have progressed and ideas have changed due to updated training methods, more current research.  Are you saying it is okay for someone should use a rag and ether to knock out a patient to perform an amputation then claim to be practicing modern medicine?  

If I was teaching a KKW curriculum from 40 years the KKW would have every right to criticize me, as long as their point of criticism was correct.  In this case not teaching their most updated curriculum.



> Really? What system has only one organization that one had to belong to in order to obtain rank?


I never said that a system had ONLY one organization that you had to belong to to teach that system.  I said that in order to teach that org's curriculum you would have to be associated with that org (i.e. a member).  Example:  If I am not associated with the KKW (i.e. have a dan cert# from the KKW) do you think I would be able to promote someone to a KKW black belt myself?  Or better yet, I practice hapkido, can I promote you to a judo black belt through the Kodokan? After all I know how to throw and fall properly and I can teach it to others.



> You failed to understand my point in perspective and the context in which it was made. The point was that many instructors give their blessings to go beyond what they've done. This is something that should be a common standard within the arts.


Perhaps.  My point was if you have a clean amicable break from the org/teacher, then neither party should have any criticizing to do.  



> Please provide some examples that are within the context of the statements that I've made.


I already have....self promotion is one.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 19, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Looking through the site, it looks like he came to the U.S. from Korea in 1972. Were you searching for this school because you wish to seek training from him?


The Moo's were a big problem in Illinois.  They were eventually shut down with their "Leader" and some other high ranking personnel jailed http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/cmd-tax.html.  Now fast forward some many years later, the schools are popping back up again as Chung Moo Do as opposed to the original Chung Moo Quan.  Instructors claim they have disassociated themselves with the original school.  

When I first moved up to the Chicago suburbs back in 1984, I joined the school for a 30 day trial.  When my 30 days were up they price jumped enormously from what I paid for the trial. Since we could not afford it I had to quit.  I started receiving phone calls from them at 10pm at night saying that I was weak and anyone could just attack my family because I wouldn't be able to defend them.  Keep in mind that I was 14 at the time and they would not talk to my mom directly, they kept asking for me.  A lot of their membership was based on extortion.  I am not sure what the new schools do or say now to get people in their doors.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 19, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Yes, I do have examples. None of which I will discuss publicly or privately with people I do not know that well. Yes, I am sure there are seniors out there who have done this...and when I say seniors I am not referring to any specific martial art.



Interesting.



> What I was addressing was your post that basically says that people who break away from an org have every write to criticize that org, yet the org has no right to criticize and individual who breaks away from them. Under certain circumstances that may be true but no under all circumstances. The KKW example was just that...and example. You can replace KKW with JKA or Kodokan or whatever org has a set curriculum that must be taught, followed and learned in order to advance in ranking within that organization.



Actually, in the context of what I wrote, this is correct.  Except that I was speaking of people within the organization and not the organization in-and-of-itself.  You posted outside of the context in which I was posting and made it exclusive to the organization itself.



> No it means that things have progressed and ideas have changed due to updated training methods, more current research. Are you saying it is okay for someone should use a rag and ether to knock out a patient to perform an amputation then claim to be practicing modern medicine?



You must have stock in produce, once again you're apples and oranges 



> I said that in order to teach that org's curriculum you would have to be associated with that org (i.e. a member). Example: If I am not associated with the KKW (i.e. have a dan cert# from the KKW) do you think I would be able to promote someone to a KKW black belt myself? Or better yet, I practice hapkido, can I promote you to a judo black belt through the Kodokan? After all I know how to throw and fall properly and I can teach it to others.



That kinda goes without saying doesn't it?  And again, it is outside of the context I was making a point in.  



> I already have....self promotion is one.



Some would think self-promotion is okay.  I have my own reservations about it, but I'd like to hear your perspective on it.  And also, are you familar with any seniors that have self-promoted?  Or, using the term you used previously, went org-hopping for rank?

I'm enjoying our conversation Jeremy and appreciate your participation.  I think it very much links with the premise of the OP.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 19, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> The Moo's were a big problem in Illinois. They were eventually shut down with their "Leader" and some other high ranking personnel jailed http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/cmd-tax.html. Now fast forward some many years later, the schools are popping back up again as Chung Moo Do as opposed to the original Chung Moo Quan. Instructors claim they have disassociated themselves with the original school.
> 
> When I first moved up to the Chicago suburbs back in 1984, I joined the school for a 30 day trial. When my 30 days were up they price jumped enormously from what I paid for the trial. Since we could not afford it I had to quit. I started receiving phone calls from them at 10pm at night saying that I was weak and anyone could just attack my family because I wouldn't be able to defend them. Keep in mind that I was 14 at the time and they would not talk to my mom directly, they kept asking for me. A lot of their membership was based on extortion. I am not sure what the new schools do or say now to get people in their doors.



I'm very sorry this happened to you, particularly at such a young age.  Those are formative years and I'm glad it didn't keep you away from the arts as a whole.  Since Al was specifically searching for this group online, I'm wondering if he has any information as to if they're still connected or using the same tactics?

Sounds like 'bad budo'.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Tae Yun Kim.




Is that really a 'she'? Looks as if 'she' is actually a ladyboy tbh. That's not derogatory btw, they are much admired.


----------



## IcemanSK (Mar 19, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> The Moo's were a big problem in Illinois.  They were eventually shut down with their "Leader" and some other high ranking personnel jailed http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/cmd-tax.html.  Now fast forward some many years later, the schools are popping back up again as Chung Moo Do as opposed to the original Chung Moo Quan.  Instructors claim they have disassociated themselves with the original school.
> 
> When I first moved up to the Chicago suburbs back in 1984, I joined the school for a 30 day trial.  When my 30 days were up they price jumped enormously from what I paid for the trial. Since we could not afford it I had to quit.  I started receiving phone calls from them at 10pm at night saying that I was weak and anyone could just attack my family because I wouldn't be able to defend them.  Keep in mind that I was 14 at the time and they would not talk to my mom directly, they kept asking for me.  A lot of their membership was based on extortion.  I am not sure what the new schools do or say now to get people in their doors.



Ah yes, I remember those guys. My buddy & I went by a school of their's & wanted to watch a class. We could take a class, but not watch. We left immediately. It seemed fishy & creepy. Two weeks later the local tv investigative reporter did a huge story on them & their legal problems began.

Sorry that you had an up-close & personal experience with them, Jeremy.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Mar 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is that really a 'she'? Looks as if 'she' is actually a ladyboy tbh. That's not derogatory btw, they are much admired.



She kind of does, doesn't she.

She also terrifies me on a very deep level.


----------



## puunui (Mar 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> #1. For me, I see that American's often break away from their instructors and I think that in the context of Taekwondo most of the break ups were really not necessary. But they happened anyway and then the American Taekwondoin sometimes ends up on a lost path, without good seniors, without good advise, without good sources of learning more. This spirals into all the weirdness that exist in martial arts and Taekwondo.



I agree. People leave for whatever reason, then spend the rest of their lives criticizing their instructors. Then their students take up the cause, often times not knowing what the real reason for the original split was, or given a completely bogus reason. Remember that guy we were talking about a little while back? He got kicked out because he was "goofy", but now tells people he righteously left due to supposed high moral reasons. Now he heads up his own organization as the "grandmaster". It wouldn't be so bad if he simply left, but now he and his cohorts spend the majority of their time complaining about taekwondo and korean born instructors. "Lost" is a good description. 




mastercole said:


> #4. "The master was an Olympic delegate for TKD but isn't a member of the USTU/USAT ;-)"  I'm in this category so I don't see a problem with it unless the person is lying.



I got that one too, the "Certificate of Delegation" for the Sydney Games. We all did. They passed it out at one of the big meetings. I see a lot of people who put that up on their dojang wall.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 20, 2012)

IcemanSK said:


> Ah yes, I remember those guys. My buddy & I went by a school of their's & wanted to watch a class. We could take a class, but not watch. We left immediately. It seemed fishy & creepy. Two weeks later the local tv investigative reporter did a huge story on them & their legal problems began.
> 
> Sorry that you had an up-close & personal experience with them, Jeremy.


Actually I am not sorry that it happened, in fact I owe them gratitude.  If they were not such a-holes, I would have never sought lessons elsewhere and would have never found one of my first real mentors in martial arts Arturo Gabriel.  Through his teachings I became a better person and his teachings literally saved my life (a story for another time) and help me cope with a lot of things that happened in my teen years.  So it all worked out in the end.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 20, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *mastercole*
> 
> 
> #1. For me, I see that American's often break away from their instructors and I think that in the context of Taekwondo most of the break ups were really not necessary. But they happened anyway and then the American Taekwondoin sometimes ends up on a lost path, without good seniors, without good advise, without good sources of learning more. This spirals into all the weirdness that exist in martial arts and Taekwondo.



Now this really doesn't make much sense if you look at the big picture.  The Koreans broke away from the Japanese/Okinawans/Chinese, creating their own thing from what was learned from them.  Why would this be okay, but not for Americans?  Or Canadians?  Or the British or French?  Why didn't the Koreans find themselves on a 'lost path' after breaking away?  After all, the Japanese, Okinawans and Chinese have a much richer history of martial arts from an overall perspective than the Koreans, so didn't they separate themselves from 'good advice and good sources or learning more'?



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> I agree. People leave for whatever reason, then spend the rest of their lives criticizing their instructors.



Your completely discounting that there could be very legitimate reasons for leaving.  Some people I've noticed are very comfortable covering for rewritten histories.  Some are very comfortable making excuses for dishonest or dishonorable business practices.  Some are very comfortable overlooking exceptionally poor skills and/or teaching ability.  Some are comfortable looking the other way at highly questionable ways of gaining rank.

But some people aren't comfortable with those things at all.  They prefer to forge their own path, using a higher standard to guide them.  Perhaps this is one of the things that separate a leader from a follower.  And just like some Koreans felt they could take what the Japanese taught them and then leave and create their own thing, some westerners felt they could do the same.  And they can.  And they have. 

Sometimes it is a natural progression because the student becomes more proficient than the original teacher. Or learns more to pass on.  And sometimes it is because the original instructor was a schmuck and the student wasn't going to lower their standards just because their rank depended on it.  Some break away, using the same label as the original but with different standards.  Some change the name completely.  The Koreans did both.  And now you complain if Americans do the same thing?


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Mar 20, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Actually I am not sorry that it happened, in fact I owe them gratitude. If they were not such a-holes, I would have never sought lessons elsewhere and would have never found one of my first real mentors in martial arts Arturo Gabriel. Through his teachings I became a better person and his teachings literally saved my life (a story for another time) and help me cope with a lot of things that happened in my teen years. So it all worked out in the end.



I'm glad it worked out for you Jeremy.


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 20, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Interesting.  Some would think self-promotion is okay.  I have my own reservations  about it, but I'd like to hear your perspective on it.  And also, are  you familar with any seniors that have self-promoted?  Or, using the  term you used previously, went org-hopping for rank?


I'm combining these two quotes since they are starting to merge into one topic.  Yes, it interesting.  When you are a director of an organization and when you have an 'in' in certain communities, you learn a lot of dirty laundry.  I know of a couple of seniors, again not all necessarily in Korean arts, that have done self promotion.  I do not discuss names publicly without extensive investigation to back it up or do I discuss it privately with people that I do not know well, because it could lead down a road I rather not travel.

Do I believe in self promotion?  I am not a huge fan of it myself, but I am not one to totally shun someone because of it.  As I mentioned I do know people who have done it.  They made a decision I did not agree with, but that did not necessarily make them horrible people and I still maintain a good relationship with them.  They are very good martial artists and reason for their decision is their own.



> Actually, in the context of what I wrote, this is correct.  Except that I was speaking of people within the organization and not the organization in-and-of-itself.  You posted outside of the context in which I was posting and made it exclusive to the organization itself.


Which people within the organization?  Board members, directors, just general people?  Without knowing the content of why one separated from the  organization, we cannot say that either side has no right to criticize.  I will grant this if it is general people outside of the know, then yes they have no right to criticize the person who left.  If you do not both sides of the why then you really don't have a voice in the matter.



> You must have stock in produce, once again you're apples and oranges


Not really.  You said _"...the issue with   teaching an 'outdated' KKW curriculum? Would that in turn mean it was   irrelevant information when it was 'in date'?_  My point is at the time of its use it had a purpose.  However, as we progress and evolve, things that may have been useful then may not be as useful now.  If the KKW tells me they are doing away with older forms because they function they served then does not meet the needs of what we are doing today, then I change.  I never said that what was taught before had no use.  It just not meet the needs of today's direction.





> That kinda goes without saying doesn't it?  And again, it is outside of the context I was making a point in.


Then perhaps you could explain your point a bit more so I can I figure out where the miscommunication is.  Thank you.


----------

