# Elbows in the UFC



## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

I believe that elbows should be banned.  Not because they're particularly vicious, but because they're chicken-s.  

I'm watching the prelims from last week's UFC live 6.  Josh Neer wins a TKO because he's throwing short elbows at the guys forehead.  Didn't hurt him.  Just cut him, and it worked.  The fight was stopped by the doctor at the end of the 2nd round.  

Elbows cause a lot of blood, but they don't typically stop the fighter. Am I the only one?


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## Cyriacus (Oct 4, 2011)

I Disagree.

UFC = MMA in a Cage.
Why not take out the Grappling and make it Kickboxing;
Or take out the Striking and make it BJJ.

Plus, Elbows arent too much more effective than a Solid Kick to the leg. Or a Punch to the Temple.

Just My Opinion, though.

Ill mention that im full well aware of how damn hard an Elbow can hit.
But then, so do most Strikes in Full Contact Sparring.

EDIT: If anything, the Doctors could be asked to go easy on the prognosis.
Optionally, Elbow Pads.
Optionally Optionally, Helmets. And why not throw in shinpads and shoes, and bigger gloves. Its a slippery slope, but the UFC is changing as time goes by.
Who knows what the future holds.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

If the idea is to find out who the best fighter is, cheap cuts from cheesy elbows end fights prematurely.  I hate to see a game fighter told that the fighter is over because of a cheap cut over his eye. 

Leg kicks accumulate and will suck the desire to fight out of a fighter.  A punch to the temple will knock a guy out.  

personally, I'd rather see soccer kicks and knees to a downed opponent, but elbows just end fights early.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 4, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> If the idea is to find out who the best fighter is, cheap cuts from cheesy elbows end fights prematurely.  I hate to see a game fighter told that the fighter is over because of a cheap cut over his eye.
> 
> Leg kicks accumulate and will suck the desire to fight out of a fighter.  A punch to the temple will knock a guy out.
> 
> personally, I'd rather see soccer kicks and knees to a downed opponent, but elbows just end fights early.



That is unfortunate. But taking away one of a Fighters Weapons is a Restriction to their overall ability to Fight. Itd be like making Grapplers Box, just to see whos the better Fighter.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> That is unfortunate. But taking away one of a Fighters Weapons is a Restriction to their overall ability to Fight. Itd be like making Grapplers Box, just to see whos the better Fighter.


Fair enough.  Just hate seeing fights like the one I just saw.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 4, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Fair enough.  Just hate seeing fights like the one I just saw.



Yeah.
I like Bouts to last at least to the end of One Round. At least.
But usually, bouts shorter than that are rather uncommon.

And im sure we can live with the odd Premature TKO, if thats the sacrifice for maintaining as complete an arsenal as possible.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 4, 2011)

I like elbows in MMA.  It is another variable that the fighters have to deal with and they can be devastatingly effective!


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## punisher73 (Oct 5, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Fair enough. Just hate seeing fights like the one I just saw.



I agree with you.  There are some fighters out there that see it as a game, and as such, play the game very well.  I feel the same way that some fighters used to do the "lay and pray".  They would get a takedown and then just hold the other fighter down without really trying to do damag or advance their position, this led to the refs being able to stand the fighters back up.

The rules are constantly being modified to provide the best action/entertainment.  I think that if elbows and cheap cuts become a problem then they will probably address it at that time.  I don't think banning elbows entirely is the answer though, and I'm not sure what is, other than hoping you have good fighters who want to mix it up and fight and not just exploit certain rules to win it.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 5, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I agree with you.  There are some fighters out there that see it as a game, and as such, play the game very well.  I feel the same way that some fighters used to do the "lay and pray".  They would get a takedown and then just hold the other fighter down without really trying to do damag or advance their position, this led to the refs being able to stand the fighters back up.
> 
> The rules are constantly being modified to provide the best action/entertainment.  I think that if elbows and cheap cuts become a problem then they will probably address it at that time.  I don't think banning elbows entirely is the answer though, and I'm not sure what is, other than hoping you have good fighters who want to mix it up and fight and not just exploit certain rules to win it.



...Elbow Pads? Less Cuts, same Recoil.


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## punisher73 (Oct 5, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> ...Elbow Pads? Less Cuts, same Recoil.



How do you secure them?  Also, that is one of the advantages to smaller gloves.  You don't cause as much brain trauma.  One could argue that the fighters will take more punishment and long term damage with padded elbows because it isn't enough to damage and end the fight (just playing devil's advocate).

Why not create a seperate subdivision/ruleset like Pancrase that doesn't allow closed fist strikes to the face.  Limit the elbows to only certain positions like the downward "spiking elbow".  BTW ever wonder how that one got banned?  It was from watching people do fake breaks with large amounts of ice and the commissions thinking that the elbow was too deadly to allow in competition.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 5, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> How do you secure them?  Also, that is one of the advantages to smaller gloves.  You don't cause as much brain trauma.  One could argue that the fighters will take more punishment and long term damage with padded elbows because it isn't enough to damage and end the fight (just playing devil's advocate).
> 
> Why not create a seperate subdivision/ruleset like Pancrase that doesn't allow closed fist strikes to the face.  Limit the elbows to only certain positions like the downward "spiking elbow".  BTW ever wonder how that one got banned?  It was from watching people do fake breaks with large amounts of ice and the commissions thinking that the elbow was too deadly to allow in competition.



Good Point about Trauma. I didnt think of that.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Fair enough. Just hate seeing fights like the one I just saw.



Stop watching UFC?


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## Steve (Oct 6, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Stop watching UFC?


LOL...  yeah.  I could.  But then I'd be watching guys fight who aren't ready for the big time.

Seriously, though, I like watching all of the different promotions, but I do really enjoy watching the UFC events.  They typically put together some pretty good cards.  

One of my friends was supposed to be on the card last Saturday, but on the last day of his training camp, he tore tendons in his thumb and had to have surgery.  Kooky accident, but he was pretty bummed.  He'll get another chance soon, though.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 6, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> LOL...  yeah.  I could.  But then I'd be watching guys fight who aren't ready for the big time.
> 
> Seriously, though, I like watching all of the different promotions, but I do really enjoy watching the UFC events.  They typically put together some pretty good cards.
> 
> One of my friends was supposed to be on the card last Saturday, but on the last day of his training camp, he tore tendons in his thumb and had to have surgery.  Kooky accident, but he was pretty bummed.  He'll get another chance soon, though.



Ah Yes. The Thumb.
The Number of People wholl maim their Thumb one way or another will never cease to amaze me. Somehow, Gloves seam to increase the Commodity (Boxing type Gloves. Not Small Gloves)


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## Never_A_Reflection (Oct 6, 2011)

Personally, I think elbows are fantastic and downward elbows should be allowed (granted, some fighters already use them and just accept the penalty for it) and I also think that kicks and knees to downed opponents should be allowed.  I see no reason to limit the ruleset even further just because sometimes fights get stopped early due to cuts from elbows--really, the percentage of elbows that end fights prematurely due to cuts is pretty low.  I see elbows as another tool to both use and to defend against.  If the goal of MMA is to develop the most complete fighter and test them against other "most complete fighters" then they should be able to use the most complete skillset possible, within reason (obviously the most dangerous techniques, like eye gouges, need to remain illegal for the fighters' safety).

@punisher73 - As I recall the story, downward elbows were banned because someone from either the UFC or an athletic commission (I can't remember which) went to a martial arts demo and saw someone shatter a block of ice, I believe it was, with a downward elbow and decided it was "too deadly" to be allowed under the Unified Rules.


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## punisher73 (Oct 6, 2011)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> @punisher73 - As I recall the story, downward elbows were banned because someone from either the UFC or an athletic commission (I can't remember which) went to a martial arts demo and saw someone shatter a block of ice, I believe it was, with a downward elbow and decided it was "too deadly" to be allowed under the Unified Rules.



Same story I had heard.


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## GisanOx (Oct 7, 2011)

It wasn't ice that he shattered.  It was the 3rd brick in a stack of 7.  

Anyway, early stoppage of a fight due to a small cut as opposed to having 4 pints of blood on the mat and a tore open eyelid and face..ya know?


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## MJS (Oct 8, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I believe that elbows should be banned.  Not because they're particularly vicious, but because they're chicken-s.
> 
> I'm watching the prelims from last week's UFC live 6.  Josh Neer wins a TKO because he's throwing short elbows at the guys forehead.  Didn't hurt him.  Just cut him, and it worked.  The fight was stopped by the doctor at the end of the 2nd round.
> 
> Elbows cause a lot of blood, but they don't typically stop the fighter. Am I the only one?



Well, back in the day, the fight would've carried on, without doc or ref stoppage.  Today, as you know, fighter safety is higher on the list.  As for an elbow being an effective shot...IMHO, I think they're very effective.  Will they necessarily be a fight ender?  I'd say it'd depend on where the person was hit.  But, repeated elbows will certainly make a mess of someone.


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## Phenix_Rider (Oct 8, 2011)

MJS said:


> Well, back in the day, the fight would've carried on, without doc or ref stoppage.  Today, as you know, fighter safety is higher on the list.  As for an elbow being an effective shot...IMHO, I think they're very effective.  Will they necessarily be a fight ender?  I'd say it'd depend on where the person was hit.  But, repeated elbows will certainly make a mess of someone.



Heh, one well placed elbow certainly can be a fight-ender.  This from personal experience.  I had a sparring opponent walk into my elbow as I was attempting to throw a spinning backfist.  Nighty-night.  Down and out.

I personally think a lot of UFC favorite techniques are chicken-*****.  For example- repeated leg kicks and double leg take-down attempts, all with the goal of trying for a guillotine for an entire round.  That's not "the most complete fighter"  that's "learn a cheap trick or two from everyone's book."  I'd rather see a fighter with depth in one art, and enough breadth to avoid the other cheap tricks.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 8, 2011)

Phenix_Rider said:


> Heh, one well placed elbow certainly can be a fight-ender.  This from personal experience.  I had a sparring opponent walk into my elbow as I was attempting to throw a spinning backfist.  Nighty-night.  Down and out.
> 
> I personally think a lot of UFC favorite techniques are chicken-*****.  For example- repeated leg kicks and double leg take-down attempts, all with the goal of trying for a guillotine for an entire round.  That's not "the most complete fighter"  that's "learn a cheap trick or two from everyone's book."  I'd rather see a fighter with depth in one art, and enough breadth to avoid the other cheap tricks.



Yes well, the UFC is ultimately a Spectator Sport.
You have other Competitions for seeing who can Incapacitate their Opponent first


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## MJS (Oct 9, 2011)

Phenix_Rider said:


> Heh, one well placed elbow certainly can be a fight-ender.  This from personal experience.  I had a sparring opponent walk into my elbow as I was attempting to throw a spinning backfist.  Nighty-night.  Down and out.



Agreed, and I hope I didn't make it sound like I was disputing that.  



> I personally think a lot of UFC favorite techniques are chicken-*****.  For example- repeated leg kicks and double leg take-down attempts, all with the goal of trying for a guillotine for an entire round.  That's not "the most complete fighter"  that's "learn a cheap trick or two from everyone's book."  I'd rather see a fighter with depth in one art, and enough breadth to avoid the other cheap tricks.



I'll use the Marco Ruas vs. Paul Varelans fight, I think in UFC 7.  Ruas literially chopped Paul down with repeated leg kicks.  IMO, I dont think thats a cheap trick...I think its a smart use of your tools.  Here's my thinking:

According to Sherdog:

Ruas: 6'1, 210lbs.  Paul is 6'8, 300lbs.  IMO, I think instead of trading punches, Ruas wore him down and finished him off.  It was obviously an effective tactic, as Paul didn't seem to know how to defend them.  

On the flip side, since you mentioned having depth in one art...lets look at Gracie and Hughes.  Gracie, despite attempting to learn some boxing, was basically destroyed by Hughes.  The one dimensional fighter in this case, while he does have good grappling, was taken down, and beaten.


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