# Question... and I'm sure you've heard this a million times...



## neoinarien (May 4, 2008)

Hello all,

How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc? 

I don't know much about CMA (basically I have just crashed my local book stores for a few days) but it seems that some folks feel that it is pretty weak from a practical standpoint as a self-defense art.

Thoughts?


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## arnisador (May 4, 2008)

There's a lot of good CMA and a lot of bad CMA being taught. I've met Wing Chun and Preying Mantis practitioners that I dound very tough to deal with; but, my CMA experience is relatively limited.

What matters most if how the instructor trains it!


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## terryl965 (May 4, 2008)

It is more about the person than the Art sorry to say. You could be the best physical guy in the world and not know how to fight. Or you could be in the best Martial art in the world and still not known how to fight.


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## 7starmarc (May 4, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Hello all,
> 
> How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?
> 
> ...


 
It depends on what you're looking at.

If, by CMA, you are referring to (performance) Wushu, I'd say that the forms and manuevers practiced are sufficiently far from pratical applications that they have much less bearing on a "real world" fight. The body control, conditioning, and general movement patterns would help, but to a limited fashion.

If you're referring to sport CMA such as Sanda taught for the ring, it probably has as much relevance as any other sport MA (e.g. MMA, tournament karate, etc.). 

Combat Sanda, as in that trained in the Chinese army should be very effective in the "real world".

If you're talking about traditional CMA, your mileage will vary with the Sifu and student, but the potential for someone to be highly effective in the "real world" is very good. The techniques, applications, and principles are all there and time-tested.


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## Andy Moynihan (May 4, 2008)

Short answer: Hollywood/Hong Kong Cinema.


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## pete (May 4, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Hello all,
> 
> How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?
> 
> ...


my advise for you is to save the money from the bookstore and buy:
1. enough lumber, hardware, and concrete to build yourself a nice fort with a labyrinth of caves and bunkers;
2. stock up on peanut butter and other non-perishables
3. an AK47, rocket launchers, and grenades
4. A swiss army knife, one with scissors, nail file and corkscrew.
5. couple of bottles of mondavi (that corkscrew will come in handy)

that should keep you safe in the 'real world', no need for martial art.


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## neoinarien (May 4, 2008)

So, barring pete's response it seems that the overall answer is:

Yes! CMA can be an entirely effective means of self defense, IF:

~Taught well
~Practiced well

Couldn't someone make the same claim of any MA? I apologize because I do not mean to be antagonistic. I _want_ to believe that CMA, praying mantis, tiger, crane, etc, are all highly applicative. And I understand that you don't see these styles use in MMA, etc, because they broadly may not conform to MMA rules. I also understand that these are, generally, very old styles/practices.

But it doesn't make sense that because it's told, ergo, it must be good. There are plenty of philosophies and ideas that have withstood the test of time despite their many many faults in accomplishing exactly what they set out to do. 

Coming from a heavy TKD background I lament that my dojang (in my opinion) focused too much on the external rather than the internal. But I am thankful for the kicking, hapkido, etc that I learned because they (and other techniques) have immediately direct and understandable application in a self-defense situation. 

When I look at 'praying mantis', etc, with bent wrists, it does not strike me prima facie to be the best idea. It seems more built for show or for light sparring than winning fights against hardened thugs and criminals (I'm betting this is blatant ignorance and TKD bias).  

Is there a much sparring in CMA? 

Again, I apologize for the ignorance and the length of the post. I find Kung Fu to be very fascinating, but I've only seen it on the silver screen instead of in the ring/tournaments. Between lack of first hand knowledge, never having sparred against a Kung Fu practitioner, and the incredible breadth of hyperbole surrounding the art (hollywood, books, etc) I'm just trying to get the best feedback possible.


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## Sukerkin (May 4, 2008)

If you're seeking reassurance that CMA's actually 'work', *neoinarien*, then that's a very broad church to cover.  

However, from personal experience, I can tell you that Lau Gar Kung Fu certainly does function exceedingly well and kept me unsliced the one time I really needed it.

*Terry*'s point made earlier is the one great truism of MA tho'.  A person can be trained in almost any art and be an effective fighter - the big factor that determines just _how_ effective they will be is them themselves rather than the art they train in.

Most of the 'style debates' are, ironically enough, rooted in the traditions of Kung Fu cinema where a central thread is is often of the nature of "Your Kung Fu sucks.  Ours rocks!" :lol:.


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## Flying Crane (May 4, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> So, barring pete's response it seems that the overall answer is:
> 
> Yes! CMA can be an entirely effective means of self defense, IF:
> 
> ...


 
yup.  that's the real answer right there.




> I apologize because I do not mean to be antagonistic. I _want_ to believe that CMA, praying mantis, tiger, crane, etc, are all highly applicative. And I understand that you don't see these styles use in MMA, etc, because they broadly may not conform to MMA rules. I also understand that these are, generally, very old styles/practices.
> 
> But it doesn't make sense that because it's told, ergo, it must be good. There are plenty of philosophies and ideas that have withstood the test of time despite their many many faults in accomplishing exactly what they set out to do.
> 
> ...


 
unfortunately, this is something you will have to take on faith.  You haven't trained it, it's impossible to try it all out first hand because there are too many styles, so you just have to accept someone's word for it, that yes, it works.  That's life.  

I haven't trained in Hapkido, but I trust that in the right hands, it works well.  Neither have I studied aeronautics, but I trust that the airplane will fly when I get on board, because knowledgeable people tell me it will.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 4, 2008)

Is CMA practical? 
YES!! and it can be down right nasty and brutal too!!

My teacher for Bagua loved to go for the head and sweep and control control control!! for Hsing yi a huge burst of energy and just break through someones defense.

The chinna techniques used in some styles would make a jujutsu person smile with envy at the difference methods of control.

I personally do not think books do enough justice to an art to judge it even the arts I practice I own books with the pictures and they do not tell the whole story.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (May 4, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> Hello all,
> 
> How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?
> 
> ...


 
Can't speak for all Chinese Martial Arts systems but I'll give you this sample http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1OU35lqI1k&feature=PlayList&p=0D9C160FF607ACA0&index=20 and let you decide whether Hung Ga has effective techniques.  This is an item featuring Sifu Sharif Bey.


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## Xue Sheng (May 4, 2008)

CMA taught as it should be *AND* trained as it should be is very effective.

CMA not taught properly and/or not trained properly is as effective as is to be expected based on that lack of training or understanding


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## Steel Tiger (May 4, 2008)

From my own point of view I have found CMA very effective.  In my case Bagua and Qinna.  

But equally, I have known people who practice only the shape and not the essence of the art (that applies to arts other than CMA as well) and they were sad, sorry, and very deluded people who were going to get hurt.  It's like Tae Bo and such things.  They may be based on TKD and Karate, but if you try to defend yourself with it, you'll just get hurt.

As so many of the others have said it all comes down to the way the art is taught, trained, and approached.


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## jks9199 (May 4, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> So, barring pete's response it seems that the overall answer is:
> 
> Yes! CMA can be an entirely effective means of self defense, IF:
> 
> ...


By Jove, I think he's got it!

The simple truth is that every style is useful for self defense, if taught and practiced with a realistic eye towards that purpose.  Some styles may be more direct about it than others, or have a more current basis in reality -- but most *martial *arts started out as a means of self defense, often in times of war.  

The sad part is that every style can also be a load of fantasy and useless dancing, if it's practiced that way.

It comes down on the student to train realistically, and expect and demand that they be instructed realistically -- if that's what you want.

I just wish that more commercial schools were more honest about what they teach...  Many (NOT ALL!) teach watered down sports and dancing, not realistic and practical self defense principles -- but tell their students that they're learning to defend themselves.


> I apologize because I do not mean to be antagonistic. I _want_ to believe that CMA, praying mantis, tiger, crane, etc, are all highly applicative. And I understand that you don't see these styles use in MMA, etc, because they broadly may not conform to MMA rules. I also understand that these are, generally, very old styles/practices.
> 
> But it doesn't make sense that because it's told, ergo, it must be good. There are plenty of philosophies and ideas that have withstood the test of time despite their many many faults in accomplishing exactly what they set out to do.
> 
> ...



Many of the applications of Chinese martial arts are only apparent on long practice.  They are often not taught as a "30 days/30 ways to kill" method of self defense, and have actually deliberately concealed the functional aspects unless the student earned the right to learn them.  

Sparring is not the ultimate test of the effectiveness of a martial art; it's only ONE means of practicing the techniques and principles with a partner.  Some very effective styles do very little (or no) "sparring" as such.  Other styles do lots of sparring, but it's so oriented on the rules for a sporting event that there's no relevance to real world self defense.


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## kidswarrior (May 5, 2008)

Don't know if it's been a million times, but sure seems like it. 

Without getting too worked up over this version of the grade school argument, _My dad can beat up your dad_, here are a few places you might start. Feel free to use the search button to find the many more on MT: here here here


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## kidswarrior (May 5, 2008)

Don't know if it's been a million times, but sure seems like it. 

Without getting too worked up over this version of the grade school argument, _My dad can beat up your dad_, here are a few places you might start. Feel free to use the search button to find the many more on MT: here here here


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## 7starmarc (May 5, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> When I look at 'praying mantis', etc, with bent wrists, it does not strike me prima facie to be the best idea. It seems more built for show or for light sparring than winning fights against hardened thugs and criminals (I'm betting this is blatant ignorance and TKD bias).


 
Not to make this a post about Mantis, but I think it goes to general impressions about some CMA styles as well.

The Mantis hook -- that hand posture which is immediately recognizable -- is seen in forms and technique practice. True, it also occupies two of our 12 key principles, but Mantis is far more than the hook. The majority of the time, strikes involve the much more classic fist, knife hand, spear hand, kicks, elbows, etc. The hook has it's uses, but the judge the style on one component of it is pretty dangerous.

The hook is incorporated in defense, as well as some attacks (including pressure point and vital area strikes).

As to the effectiveness of Mantis, there are a number of (now) Sifus within our lineage who have claimed titles in "less restrictive" fighting tournaments in the 70's, particularly on the East coast. I don't have alot of details, but I have been told of some of these people. I'm sure other styles of CMA can claim similar "proof of effectiveness".

Don't be mislead by the "characteristic" poses or hand positions of some CMA stlyes. Most use every strike you've heard of to some degree, and some that you haven't.


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## HG1 (May 5, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> **EDIT***
> How do you feel about the practicality of CMA in a "real world" fight for self defense? Stronger in CMA than TKD, etc?
> 
> I don't know much about CMA (basically I have just crashed my local book stores for a few days) but it seems that some folks feel that it is pretty weak from a practical standpoint as a self-defense art. Thoughts?


 
You will not learn anything of great value about CMA's from a book. Go take the next step & seek out different schools. Ask the Sifu or senior students questions about self defense for a more accurate answer. Good schools will have no problem demonstrating some effective basic techniques.


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## HG1 (May 5, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> **EDIT**When I look at 'praying mantis', etc, with bent wrists, it does not strike me prima facie to be the best idea. It seems more built for show or for light sparring than winning fights against hardened thugs and criminals (I'm betting this is blatant ignorance and TKD bias).


 
That bent wrist is something Praying Mantis specializes in, one of many weapons in their arsenal.  Other CMA's use something similar & I can tell from experience it is a painful blow.  Here's aother opiton to think about,  the coiled energy of that bent wrist released into a conditioned palm strike.


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## neoinarien (May 5, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification re. hand hook!


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## kidswarrior (May 7, 2008)

HG1 said:


> That bent wrist is something Praying Mantis specializes in, one of many weapons in their arsenal.  Other CMA's use something similar & I can tell from experience it is a painful blow.  Here's aother opiton to think about,  the coiled energy of that bent wrist released into a conditioned palm strike.


Exactly right, HG1.

Another possibility I learned/now teach (not mantis, but maybe they have something similar), is striking with the end of the arm bones at/above the bent wrist. I call this the oxjaw, although have seen it called other things as well (would have to look it up though, am thinking I saw it in Xing Yi :idunno. 

Most people when first seeing this believe it's striking with the wrist, when in fact it's anything but: the bent wrist keeps both it and the hand out of the way, and allows for a very powerful strike.You see this targeted often to the chin, solar plexus, groin, and other *upward* targets. But just a note on another interesting application for this strike: if the palm is quickly turned upward, the twisting oxjaw can be brought down and really pack a punch. Likely targets are numerous, e.g., collar bone, shoulder, bridge of nose, temple, hinge of jaw, neck, and even the arms and otherwise not-usually-thought-of-as-targets can get a good reaction.


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Exactly right, HG1.
> 
> Another possibility I learned/now teach (not mantis, but maybe they have something similar), is striking with the end of the arm bones at/above the bent wrist. I call this the oxjaw, although have seen it called other things as well (would have to look it up though, am thinking I saw it in Xing Yi :idunno.


 
I am not 100% certain from the description but you may be talking about Piquan which is not really a strike with the arm it is a strike with the palm but there is a lot of coiling energy used in the set up and attack. The strike itself, at a lower level such as mine, is a combination of downward and forward. At higher levels, I am told, it is 3 directional downward, forward and upwards. Thus giving to the myth of the magic of Xingyi striking power and its ability to knock people backwards many feet. It basically messes up the opponents defense response. Or that is my low level understanding of it. 

There are however arm strikes in Xingyiquan but they tend to be the forearm. But then I only know Wu Xing of Hebei style and there are other styles and 10 or 12 animal forms depending on the style so I could be WAAAAY off here in understanding your description. Hell I know to similar but still very different, in places, versions of Hebei Xingyiquan Wu Xing so it could be in Hebei just a variation I do not know.


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## kidswarrior (May 8, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are however arm strikes in Xingyiquan but *they tend to be the forearm*.


That's what the oxjaw is. It's the very end of the forearm, with the wrist tucked down so wrist/bones in hand don't get mauled. So, it looks like a wrist strike, but really is an end-of-arm strike. It would work for someone who didn't even have a hand. The flat surface at end of arm is used, so both bones of the forearm hit simultaneously, making it a very hard strike and protecting the arm much better than if just the radius or ulna is used. Think the flat of the knife instead of the edge of the knife--or maybe more accurately, the flat of the knife _handle_.

Anyway, that's probably clear as mud, but it's a great, useful, devastaing blow, and can be used with both hands swirling in circles and even figure eights. This gives a meshing motion, too, so the striking doubles as blocking.

OK, end of rant.


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> OK, end of rant.


 
That was a rant  I'LL SHOW YOU ARE RANT :uhyeah: 

Then I believe you are referring to the turn in Paoquan or just Paoquan depending on which version I am doing... I think. 

I&#8217;m at my office and it is kind of hard for me to run through it here without attracting much attention to myself (to be honest they are already doubting my sanity and are bit afraid of me :EG and I am not quite confident enough in my Xingyi at this point to say it is definitely Paoquan


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## Flying Crane (May 8, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Im at my office


 
aren't we all?


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## kidswarrior (May 8, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Im at my office and it is kind of hard for me to run through it here without attracting much attention to myself (*to be honest they are already doubting my sanity and are bit afraid of me* :EG and I am not quite confident enough in my Xingyi at this point to say it is definitely Paoquan


Now I know we've talked about the importance of you staying on your meds....:lol:

I'm not at home, either, but will look in my Xingyi books later and see if I can find it.


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> aren't we all?


 
You're all at MY office :xtrmshock

DAMN then this should be a WHOLE lot more fun than it is


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Now I know we've talked about the importance of you staying on your meds....:lol:
> 
> I'm not at home, either, but will look in my Xingyi books later and see if I can find it.


 
MEDS!!! :anic: Meds you say :uhoh: I know not of these meds you speak of  :uhyeah:


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> I'm not at home, either, but will look in my Xingyi books later and see if I can find it.


 
OK, I'm an idiot

Hengquan was the form I was thinking of that was close to your description.

Xingyiquan wu xing

piquan &#8211; splitting fist &#8211; metal 
zuanquan &#8211; drilling fist &#8211; water 
bengquan &#8211;smashing fist &#8211; wood 
paoquan &#8211; pounding fist &#8211; fire 
hengquan &#8211; crossing fist - earth


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## Sukerkin (May 8, 2008)

Cheers for the elaboration, *Xue*.  Also, forgive my spurling earroar in my Rep Buff - I could delete it and write it again I suppose but the implicit ironic comedy of mispelling 'Idiot' stayed my hand :lol:.


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## Xue Sheng (May 8, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Cheers for the elaboration, *Xue*. Also, forgive my spurling earroar in my Rep Buff - I could delete it and write it again I suppose but the implicit ironic comedy of mispelling 'Idiot' stayed my hand :lol:.


 
Don't you dare I'm a big fan of irony


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## kidswarrior (May 8, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> OK, I'm an idiot
> 
> Hengquan was the form I was thinking of that was close to your description.
> 
> ...


Well, my description obviously sucks 'cos what I'm thinking of is not in that magnificent form. 

The closest I can find is Paul Eng's picture of the 'Mantis Claw or Cranesbeak' in _Martial Arts Basics _(Tuttle). Problem is, he's focused on the fingers/seizing aspect, and I'm thinking of the bent wrist/striking aspect.

I seem to recall someone calling this a chicken wrist, also, but can't find an index (except in Chinese ) in any of my books. Also, this may be more of a kempo thing than CMA (you know I'm schizophrenic when it comes to my MA background ).

So, guess I'll just have to live with being misunderstood. 

*Starts to sing*_ Born to lose...._*orchestra begins in background* :dramaqueen: :rofl:


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## Sukerkin (May 9, 2008)

Is that "Born to Lose" by UFO by any chance?

As to the 'bent wrist' strikes, we used to use something that sounds very similar in Lau whereby you would intercept a punch by a strong upward movement to connect underneath the opponents forearm with the end of your own forarm bones.


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## kidswarrior (May 9, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Is that "Born to Lose" by UFO by any chance?


I was thinking of Ray Charles, but I'm sure it's been remade several times.



> As to the 'bent wrist' strikes, we used to use something that sounds very similar in Lau whereby you would intercept a punch by a strong upward movement to connect underneath the opponents forearm with the end of your own forarm bones.


Yes, that's it! Now take out the intercept (or add to it) and use as an upward strike (chin, solar plexus, groin). Then for fun, turn it over at the top of its arc, and bring down on opponent's nose, collar bone, back of neck if he's bent over, etc.


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## Xue Sheng (May 9, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> I was thinking of Ray Charles, but I'm sure it's been remade several times.
> 
> Yes, that's it! Now take out the intercept (or add to it) and use as an upward strike (chin, solar plexus, groin). Then for fun, turn it over at the top of its arc, and bring down on opponent's nose, collar bone, back of neck if he's bent over, etc.


 
Is this something like cranes beak in Taiji? (Tung Hu Lings right hand)

That can be used as a strike with the fingers or the wrist but it is more often used like a block or hook to trap, pull and defend.


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## East Winds (May 9, 2008)

We use this strike in Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. Its the strike with the right arm in Single Whip. Exactly as you guys describe. Striking with the ends of the long arm bones with fingers in the Cranes Beak position.

Very best wishes


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