# Twisting your punch



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 6, 2012)

For a straight punch, do you think it's better to rotate your hand as you hit, or keep it completely vertical, more like a thrust punch? I've heard both, and am curious about what you guys think is better.


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## WC_lun (Sep 6, 2012)

Twisting the hand without a solid structure behind it will just add more damage to your hand.  It is my opinion this is advice offered by people who haven't hit enough stuff.  A person who has the experience to put the structure behind the twisting punch, and the occasions that would be advantagious, should have the experience not to tell a beginner to do it.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 6, 2012)

It depends on the circumstances. There are times when a full twisted punch is the best option. Other times when a verticle punch is best.

There are SO very few absolutes...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 6, 2012)

That is generally my opinion too. If you can effectively hit with a punch while twisting your hand, it is useful. However, it is dangerous to do so for many beginners who would only hurt themselves with it. My only concern is that someone who does twist their hand, whether they are a beginner or not, may do it improperly in a high-stress situation, like a fight. Then it could be detrimental, instead of helpful (once again, this is all my opinion, i am by no means an expert and what i say should be taken with MANY grains of salt).


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## seasoned (Sep 6, 2012)

Most people don't punch properly with the twisting punch. If taught wrong, the elbow will turn with the punch and point out at the point of contact. 
If the body mechanics are trained and strengthened properly, it is a devastating strike.


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## seasoned (Sep 6, 2012)

[h=1]Shinjo Masanobu Sensei[/h]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWw7N_4O98Q&feature=player_detailpage

Proper way!!


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## bluewaveschool (Sep 6, 2012)

Rotate, it's something we work on from day 1.


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## K-man (Sep 6, 2012)

It also depends where you are punching. Punching high tends to favour a more vertical fist, punching lower, a slight turn to say 45 degrees.  Systema training has an exercise where you place your fist on different parts of your partner's body and push, to feel what the most natural position for striking that area would be. 

I fail to see the benefit of turning the fist on contact if you are using a flat fist.  If you are striking with a knuckle, then the twist strike makes a lot of sense.   :asian:


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## K-man (Sep 7, 2012)

For a different perspective ..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufuJUdLqBok&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## blindsage (Sep 7, 2012)

Or another "correct way" to throw a twisting punch


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## Cyriacus (Sep 7, 2012)

K-man said:


> It also depends where you are punching. Punching high tends to favour a more vertical fist, punching lower, a slight turn to say 45 degrees.  Systema training has an exercise where you place your fist on different parts of your partner's body and push, to feel what the most natural position for striking that area would be.
> 
> I fail to see the benefit of turning the fist on contact if you are using a flat fist.  If you are striking with a knuckle, then the twist strike makes a lot of sense.   :asian:


Im inclined to agree, with a slight variance. I prefer a 45 degree fist for the head, but nearly horizontal for the body. The head without a twist, the body with.
I cant say why - I suppose like the Systema drill You mentioned, its what You find to be the most natural position.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2012)

Our style (Isshin-Ryu) does not use a twisting punch.  We generally use a vertical fist.  Shimabuku Tatsuo, the creator of our style, used the vertical fist.  It is said he later experimented with the twisting punch often seen in other Okinawan karate styles, but he returned to the vertical fist with the opinion that it was the best way to punch in most circumstances.  With that said, we do not always land our punches with the fist held vertically, there are many times in kata and kumite when we apply the first horizontally, or in different formations and angles where it is most effective.  Sometimes, even with the palm facing up or down.  This is not, however, the same as a 'twisting' punch, sometimes known as a 'torqued' punch.

That is not to put down any other style.  Clearly, both styles are effective and both work.  This is how we do it, but that doesn't mean it is the only way to do it.  I found it took awhile to get used to using the vertical fist, but it's second nature to me now, and for me, it seems quite effective, quite stable, and I am able to generate very powerful punches.  For others, the twisting punch may be their style and preference.  I would not argue with them; if it works for them, then that's great.


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## punisher73 (Sep 7, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Our style (Isshin-Ryu) does not use a twisting punch.  We generally use a vertical fist.  Shimabuku Tatsuo, the creator of our style, used the vertical fist.  It is said he later experimented with the twisting punch often seen in other Okinawan karate styles, but he returned to the vertical fist with the opinion that it was the best way to punch in most circumstances.  With that said, we do not always land our punches with the fist held vertically, there are many times in kata and kumite when we apply the first horizontally, or in different formations and angles where it is most effective.  Sometimes, even with the palm facing up or down.  This is not, however, the same as a 'twisting' punch, sometimes known as a 'torqued' punch.
> 
> That is not to put down any other style.  Clearly, both styles are effective and both work.  This is how we do it, but that doesn't mean it is the only way to do it.  I found it took awhile to get used to using the vertical fist, but it's second nature to me now, and for me, it seems quite effective, quite stable, and I am able to generate very powerful punches.  For others, the twisting punch may be their style and preference.  I would not argue with them; if it works for them, then that's great.



I agree with this.  There have been people who have looked into the idea of twisting to add power to the punch and there isn't any.

That being said, I agree with my instructor.  The horizontal punch with the twist is not better or worse than the vertical punch to a very well practiced person.  We use the vertical punch as our main punch because we try to be very close in with our opponent.  The twist punch is for a distance a little bit farther out, so we dont' use it.  We use an upturned fist/uppercut to target the jaw, and if we go lower than the solar plexus we use a punch that would look very similar to the twist punch, but doesn't have quite as much twist to it.

There are some biomechanical things that support that a vertical and 3/4 punch without the twist are structurally stronger, but I think that even in that case a person is not going to reach the stress limits that it comes into play if they have trained their punch properly.


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## blindsage (Sep 7, 2012)

Here's another style of vertical punch to consider


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## chinto (Sep 7, 2012)

ok, both punches are legitimate. I use the okinawan twisting punch and vertical punch both.  both are taught and used.  often the vertical punch is used close in and  punching high.  I do not think either is better or worse if preformed properly and used appropriately.


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## Balrog (Sep 7, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Most people don't punch properly with the twisting punch. If taught wrong, the elbow will turn with the punch and point out at the point of contact.
> If the body mechanics are trained and strengthened properly, it is a devastating strike.


Agreed.  You should feel your arm rub against your body as it extends.  If you don't "get the rub", then your elbow is out and you are basically flapping your wings like a chicken.


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## seasoned (Sep 8, 2012)

I feel both twisting and vertical have proven to be very effective. I teach from chamber to full extension that we transition through 3 punches. As the fist moves towards the target it moves from under cut to vertical to twisting. 
At the end of the punch with the structure locked down and elbow in, it resembles more of a battering ram then a "punch". 

A full twist with palm down closed fist will have a tendency of turning the elbow out which breaks the link through the arm and into the shoulder. I do advocate, not a full twist, but just shy of it, considering the elbow position.


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## Buka (Sep 8, 2012)

I've been punched more than anyone I know. Not proud of that, but I competed for over twenty years, been sparring forever, and I was a cop. I seem to have perfected blocking with my face.

I've been hit with both, a whole bootload of times. Can't say I could ever tell the difference. I'm sure one is better than the other, but from my point of view, getting the punch there is the real meat and potatoes.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 1, 2012)

In Chinese MA, the horizontal punch is called Yang punch and the vertical punch is called Yin punch. You start with horizontal punch and gradually convert all your punches into vertical punches. The reason is your opponent may take advantage on your locked elbow in your horizontal punch.

In the following clip, you can see a beginner level form Tan Tui, all punches are converted into vertical punches.






If your opponent applies "cracking" on your elbow joint, the vertical punch is bad enough, the horizontal punch will be even worse.

http://imageshack.us/a/img691/1032/cracking.jpg


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## Zero (Oct 4, 2012)

Genuine quesiton: who here actually uses, or has used, a twisting punch in tournaments or "real life"? Also, what is the suppossed advantage or if not advantage, different attributes of such a punch that would make you want to apply this over a standard vertical punch or boxer's punch? I ask as I have competed in striking tournaments (prior to that, judo) for close to 15 years and have never sought to apply this punch. I have also had genuine SD situations where I have never punched this way (I guess as this was never a focus, so not instinctive). My karate style is goju ryu so obviously we use this for kata but my old sensei who trained me for tournaments never used this type (Ok, I will check with him if "never" is correct before the hearsay), either as a competitor (he has several national titles and has fought internationally) or in his job as a LEO.

When I fight or spar it is generally with a boxer's punch or, as per my sensei, with the fist vertical, in line with the wrist and the forearm all aligned - with the fist on slight downward angle (so striking surface is the two big knuckles and wrist is locked into position). A punch that is very stable and safe for the wrist and allows the energy to travel in completely straight line - I am sure all the old hacks on here know this anyway! Sometimes you can, as you strike, move the fist - as it hits - fully into alignment. This is for when contacting soft parts of face for deliberate cutting and skin tears to result in blooding.


I will ask my sensei next week, as have never bothered focusing on the twist/torque punch and so never asked as thought it best left only in the kata (yeah, there you have it!!), but any input in the interim would be appreicated. I have never seen any of the top/pro fighters with karate backgrounds use this punch either such as in Pride or UFC, I dont think I recall seeing this kind of execution even at the All Japan Nationals in kumite. So again, I genuinely ask, what is the benefit of this punch - why would you ever execute this over a standard punch? Thanks


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## clfsean (Oct 5, 2012)

In CLF we train three different "contact" position... yeurng chaap choi (thumb up), ping chaap choi (thumb level), yum chaap choi (thumb down). For us it all depends on where we're making contact & the way the punch is delivered.


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## Zero (Oct 8, 2012)

OK, so I take it that no one really actually employs the karate twisting punch in real life or tournament/full contact.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 8, 2012)

my impression is that the twist is used depending on the form of the punch.  If you punch from a hip chamber, with the palm up, then you need to rotate the punch, at least to virticle (palm to the side), and maybe to horizontal (palm-down).  If you aren't using that kind of initial chamber, then the need or desire to rotate becomes kinda moot.

in Tibetan White Crane, we do the complete punch with the palm down, and therefor do not rotate.  But we also do not use a hip chamber that would necessitate the rotation.  We also use the virticle, palm to the side, punch as well.

we just drive that damned thing out there and bust up the bad guy with it.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Oct 8, 2012)

I find the the vertical punch faster and more effecient because you are keeping your elbows in, as a result you are using your whole body to punch with instead of the arm alone. I find with the twisting punch you have to turn your elbow out and it can lose a little bit of power. When doing kata or Kihon I find myself punching diagonally with my straight punches instead of horizontally.


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## punisher73 (Oct 9, 2012)

Zero said:


> Genuine quesiton: who here actually uses, or has used, a twisting punch in tournaments or "real life"? Also, what is the suppossed advantage or if not advantage, different attributes of such a punch that would make you want to apply this over a standard vertical punch or boxer's punch? I ask as I have competed in striking tournaments (prior to that, judo) for close to 15 years and have never sought to apply this punch. I have also had genuine SD situations where I have never punched this way (I guess as this was never a focus, so not instinctive). My karate style is goju ryu so obviously we use this for kata but my old sensei who trained me for tournaments never used this type (Ok, I will check with him if "never" is correct before the hearsay), either as a competitor (he has several national titles and has fought internationally) or in his job as a LEO.
> 
> When I fight or spar it is generally with a boxer's punch or, as per my sensei, with the fist vertical, in line with the wrist and the forearm all aligned - with the fist on slight downward angle (so striking surface is the two big knuckles and wrist is locked into position). A punch that is very stable and safe for the wrist and allows the energy to travel in completely straight line - I am sure all the old hacks on here know this anyway! Sometimes you can, as you strike, move the fist - as it hits - fully into alignment. This is for when contacting soft parts of face for deliberate cutting and skin tears to result in blooding.
> 
> ...



I guess I would ask what you mean by a "boxer's punch".  In the lead jab or rear straight, they are rotating it so it is palm down and do so because they believe it will a) give it more torque and b) increase the risk of tearing the face.  Granted the don't practice from the full chamber position, but that is due to training methodologies and different goals.  For example, part of the reason for pulling back to chamber is pulling your opponent into your other punch, which is something you don't do in MMA or boxing because of rules and lack of clothing.


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## Zero (Oct 9, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> I guess I would ask what you mean by a "boxer's punch".


I could have been clearer, as you said, I meant, I do not throw a punch out from a fully chambered, elbows back, arms tight to side with fist/palm facing up position - I do not move or find myself with my arms back like that when sparring/fighting. I often throw a straight or cross with the twist as a boxer, both for the torque as you say, but also (having learned this from training with boxers) for defensive purposes: when you add the twist, on execution the shoulder covers the jaw and protects this from an overhand/overarm counter from your opponent quite well.
Further, when (not always but I try!) I throw one punch out I generally have my other fist back in guard and this is not low with elbow back and fully chambered as per the start of a karate turning punch. I just have not seen people move or fight like this using that application and I guess that is an intersting thing in itself (or maybe not...)


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 9, 2012)

Meaning no disrespect, I find it interesting how many people seem to be locked into thinking they can only throw a fist in a given way.

The fist is a very flexible instrument, and it can be effective striking others in a variety of configurations.  People say that Isshin-Ryu uses a 'vertical fist' and it's true in the sense that this is obvious in basic exercises and kata, even in our patch design.  But it's not 100%.  We are trained to use the fist where it fits into the body part we're striking.  Anyone who has watched our kata knows that we show some punches palm up, some palm down, some in a vertical or nearly vertical configuration.  There are reasons for each of those, and they make sense where we use them.

The basic forms are for establishing frameworks and initial training.  Once the body begins to react to training and the mind begins to see opportunity, things change.


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## Zero (Oct 9, 2012)

I certainly couldn't see anything disrespectful there Bill!! Not sure though how many (may be heaps actually) on here are "locked into" thinking the fist (or other techniques (let's not even go with the "proper way to kick" (heel, ball (of foot), toe, blade/side/shin)) can/should only be thrown in a specific manner. Heck if some dude can effectively use the karate twisting punch from the fully chambered/elbows back position as per your style, goju, shotokan etc, then go for it. My only question/point was that I have never used this out of kata and have never seen this out of kata in a high level tournament environment or a fight. 

I am all for the Bruce Lee (probably not his oringinally) mentality that "if you want to punch, punch, if you want to kick, just kick", meaning that everyting is simple and that if there is an opening just fill that opening with whatever technique fills that opening. Any part of the body (almost) and in almost any way can be used as an effective weapon given a certain circumstance. You know all this anyway - what I am trying to say is that I am not closed minded but I have not seen to date (and my experience is limited mind you (but not overly limited)) application of this punch - from the fully chambered stance outside of kata.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 9, 2012)

Zero said:


> I certainly couldn't see anything disrespectful there Bill!! Not sure though how many (may be heaps actually) on here are "locked into" thinking the fist (or other techniques (let's not even go with the "proper way to kick" (heel, ball (of foot), toe, blade/side/shin)) can/should only be thrown in a specific manner. Heck if some dude can effectively use the karate twisting punch from the fully chambered/elbows back position as per your style, goju, shotokan etc, then go for it. My only question/point was that I have never used this out of kata and have never seen this out of kata in a high level tournament environment or a fight.
> 
> I am all for the Bruce Lee (probably not his oringinally) mentality that "if you want to punch, punch, if you want to kick, just kick", meaning that everyting is simple and that if there is an opening just fill that opening with whatever technique fills that opening. Any part of the body (almost) and in almost any way can be used as an effective weapon given a certain circumstance. You know all this anyway - what I am trying to say is that I am not closed minded but I have not seen to date (and my experience is limited mind you (but not overly limited)) application of this punch - from the fully chambered stance outside of kata.



Understood; my style doesn't use the twisting punch.  But we likewise don't ONLY throw the 'vertical' punch either.  We throw what works for that application.  In my own training, I am beginning to have my mind opened up to the possibilities that a punch is more than a punch, and used properly, is more like a move in a chess game; it sets one up for the next move, assuming that one needs to be made.  I focus less on the orientation of my fist than my body mechanics and what it is I intend to have happen when the punch lands.  Not an expert, only a student.


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## punisher73 (Oct 10, 2012)

Zero said:


> I could have been clearer, as you said, I meant, I do not throw a punch out from a fully chambered, elbows back, arms tight to side with fist/palm facing up position - I do not move or find myself with my arms back like that when sparring/fighting. I often throw a straight or cross with the twist as a boxer, both for the torque as you say, but also (having learned this from training with boxers) for defensive purposes: when you add the twist, on execution the shoulder covers the jaw and protects this from an overhand/overarm counter from your opponent quite well.
> Further, when (not always but I try!) I throw one punch out I generally have my other fist back in guard and this is not low with elbow back and fully chambered as per the start of a karate turning punch. I just have not seen people move or fight like this using that application and I guess that is an intersting thing in itself (or maybe not...)



It just goes back to training methodologies.  Most westerners want to fight right off the bat and adopt combat sports models to fit their karate into.  So you have "boxing guards" in place for sparring etc. Which are in contradiction to the civilain self-defense situations that karate was designed for.  As to the full chamber, I want you to do a little experiment.  Pull both hands back to your hip or ribcage (depending on how your style teaches the chamber).  What do you notice?  There should be a stretch along the pecs.  In effect the full chamber teaches (among other things) how to preload the muscle to get it to fire faster and stronger.

Watch boxers, they keep nice tight guard positions until they start throwing flurries of punches.  Then what do you see? The preload the punch by pulling it back some.  You will see many come to the armpit and the hip before throwing them.  It's not as defined or mechanical as a traditional karate chamber, but it is the same concept.  The traditional method just builds it into the punch from the start along with the idea of grabbing and off balancing your attacker before punching.  This is another difference between traditional training and western combat sports.  The traditional training uses a method that has multiple layers built into it that aren't obvious from the start.


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## Jean Marais (Nov 20, 2013)

Strike hieght and distance seem to play an important role. A twisted punch seem almost impossible at very close quarters. But what happens to the rest of the body? Let's take a look at over twisting...

An additional consideration is that of an over twisted (or over horizontal twisted) punch, is the natural way the body moves with. 
1) the shoulder of the extending rotating arm lifts allowing the head to "tuck" in and thereby adds cover (think of boxing).
2) the upper torso is inclined to flex sideways out of the direct pathline (center line) of the opponant whilst simmultaniously promoting the extending arm to travel allong the centerline.

The extreme example above (which may be considered an entirely different, yet effective technique) illustrates that the possitioning of the body to execute an effective strike is at least as important as what the arm and fist are doing. If rotating the fist impacts on the body positioning, then it should greatly be scrutinized how.


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## donald1 (Nov 20, 2013)

It can work especially good if they grab because you can untwist when you pull back thus getting them off balance and leaning towards you possibly into your other hand (fist or other counter) 

But when possible its better to do the moves your used to doing excellent, so not always the advanced ways better choice


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## SENC-33 (Nov 20, 2013)

I will stop short of referring to this as an "advanced technique" but twisting or "articulating" as I like to call it is definitely a feel process. It needs to be done precisely, at the right angle and with proper timing or it is ineffective and you run the risk of injury. I am a huge proponent of directing the force and kinetic energy of a strike and articulation is key to that. When I strike the solar plexus I like a vertical fist and I rotate the wrist downwards in addition to the downward motion of the strike. I also like to add a slight twist to palm heel strikes with precise timing......

Regular punch strikes I am a straight line Systema advocate! The power and effectiveness of my strikes comes from a relaxed arm and shoulder, wave forms and utilizing my entire body weight in a compact way to generate full power


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 20, 2013)

kempodisciple said:


> For a straight punch, do you think it's better to rotate your hand as you hit, or keep it completely vertical, more like a thrust punch? I've heard both, and am curious about what you guys think is better.



If you have been taught twisting the punch from the first day and have continued to do it throughout your training then it would be better to twist your punch. After several years of training it will be so ingrained in your brain that it will be difficult not to do it. The vertical punch can also be performed with a twist (half twist actually), it starts from close to the chest with the palm facing down and ends up at the target in the vertical position. Personally, twisting a punch feels more powerful and better controlled to me, but that may feel different for other people.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 20, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> my impression is that the twist is used depending on the form of the punch.  If you punch from a hip chamber, with the palm up, then you need to rotate the punch, at least to virticle (palm to the side), and maybe to horizontal (palm-down).  If you aren't using that kind of initial chamber, then the need or desire to rotate becomes kinda moot.
> 
> in Tibetan White Crane, we do the complete punch with the palm down, and therefor do not rotate.  But we also do not use a hip chamber that would necessitate the rotation.  We also use the virticle, palm to the side, punch as well.
> 
> we just drive that damned thing out there and bust up the bad guy with it.


I consider you to be an expert on all things kung fu. LOL I was taught that all these punches we are talking about are all part of the same thing, in fact the full motion would culminate with the fist vertical and upside down, and the different punches we have all happened because of students locking in at a various distances and power points. I, personally, use the vertical punch, but can turn it into what I want, if need be. My question would be, is this some kind of Kung fu you have heard of, or simply an American advent?


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## seasoned (Nov 20, 2013)

K-man said:


> It also depends where you are punching. Punching high tends to favour a more vertical fist, punching lower, a slight turn to say 45 degrees. Systema training has an exercise where you place your fist on different parts of your partner's body and push, to feel what the most natural position for striking that area would be.
> 
> I fail to see the benefit of turning the fist on contact if you are using a flat fist. If you are striking with a knuckle, then the twist strike makes a lot of sense. :asian:


For years, and still do, I teach 3 punches in one. 
From chamber as the punch travels out it will move through under cut, vertical, to twisting.


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## skribs (Nov 20, 2013)

In TKD we train with the twist punch for forms and one-step sparring, but I tend to use a straight punch in free sparring (because if I'm throwing a punch in TKD sparring it's when I'm too close for a twist punch). Some of our one-step sparring drills call for a vertical or underhand punch as well.

Personally, I prefer the straight punch. However, I do like the twist punch, too.


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## K-man (Nov 20, 2013)

seasoned said:


> For years, and still do, I teach 3 punches in one.
> From chamber as the punch travels out it will move through under cut, vertical, to twisting.


Actually it's a very good point you make. Once again, it depends. 
This time it depends on range. At close range the strike is knuckles down, mid range vertical, and further out with a twist. Mmm! I don't like the turned fist but I will go away and do some more homework. 

*Senc* makes an interesting comparison with Systema. Here there is a series of techniques generated by the same body movement. At ultra-close range the shoulder roll is a strike, a bit further out but still close range and the elbow comes into play. A bit further out and now the fist comes into it, and further again the arm twists to give a back of forearm strike to the neck or a knuckle strike similar in karate to furi uchi. 

So the Russians are one up! Four in one vs therein one.


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## SENC-33 (Nov 20, 2013)

K-man said:


> Actually it's a very good point you make. Once again, it depends.
> This time it depends on range. At close range the strike is knuckles down, mid range vertical, and further out with a twist. Mmm! I don't like the turned fist but I will go away and do some more homework.
> 
> *Senc* makes an interesting comparison with Systema. Here there is a series of techniques generated by the same body movement. At ultra-close range the shoulder roll is a strike, a bit further out but still close range and the elbow comes into play. A bit further out and now the fist comes into it, and further again the arm twists to give a back of forearm strike to the neck or a knuckle strike similar in karate to furi uchi.
> ...



Not sure if Alex did this in the seminar you attended but Kevin Secours likes to punch you with just arm and elbow, arm elbow and shoulder and then all 3 with the wave and the difference is mind boggling. Couple all of that while learning to "drop energy" and it takes little space or effort to dismantle an adversary.

Luke Holloway (aussie) is another combatives guru I hold in high regard and have had the pleasure of meeting. His Silat wave striking is punishing to say the least


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## seasoned (Nov 20, 2013)

No argument here, all good points In above posts. As we all know within different lineage there are broader interpretations on many fronts.The one thing I find that holds true is the fact that everyone strives to get the maximum power out of the shortest distance whether striking throwing or grappling.


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## K-man (Nov 20, 2013)

SENC-33 said:


> Not sure if Alex did this in the seminar you attended but Kevin Secours likes to punch you with just arm and elbow, arm elbow and shoulder and then all 3 with the wave and the difference is mind boggling. Couple all of that while learning to "drop energy" and it takes little space or effort to dismantle an adversary.
> 
> Luke Holloway (aussie) is another combatives guru I hold in high regard and have had the pleasure of meeting. His Silat wave striking is punishing to say the least


The same power generation is in Okinawan karate. Same hips, same drop, same relaxed arm. You can see it in some of the old karate movies.

I'll check out Luke. I might get to train with Kevin next year, I'm hoping.
:asian:


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## SENC-33 (Nov 20, 2013)

K-man said:


> The same power generation is in Okinawan karate. Same hips, same drop, same relaxed arm. You can see it in some of the old karate movies.
> 
> I'll check out Luke. I might get to train with Kevin next year, I'm hoping.
> :asian:



If you get the chance to train with Kevin soak it in like a sponge.....He is the best Systema instructor out there IMO


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 20, 2013)

seasoned said:


> No argument here, all good points In above posts. As we all know within different lineage there are broader interpretations on many fronts.The one thing I find that holds true is the fact that everyone strives to get the maximum power out of the shortest distance whether striking throwing or grappling.


That isn't true. I don't strive for maximum power. I am of the maximum speed lineage, myself.


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## donald1 (Nov 20, 2013)

SENC-33 said:


> I will stop short of referring to this as an "advanced technique" but twisting or "articulating" as I like to call it is definitely a feel process.



By its self no but through different combinations it can be used in different ways and for different situations


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## SENC-33 (Nov 20, 2013)

donald1 said:


> By its self no but through different combinations it can be used in different ways and for different situations



It is the "most effective" when you are hitting a precise area targeted at a pressure point or large nerve area. I also like to add downward articulation when I am trying to sink energy "downward" into vital areas.


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## Jean Marais (Nov 27, 2013)

I mentioned earlier how important the rest of the body is in a pinch and that if twisting effects the rest of the body posture and movement, then this must be scrutinized. I got the chance to glance into my Christmas present before my wife packed it away (a new book called "Parting the Clouds") specifically on the chapter on punch rotation. Mentioned are some facts and calcs also in this thread, but something he said leads me to my new hypothesis:

the twist is there to promote the desired straight travel (elbows in) form. 

What do you think?


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## seasoned (Nov 27, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> I mentioned earlier how important the rest of the body is in a pinch and that if twisting effects the rest of the body posture and movement, then this must be scrutinized. I got the chance to glance into my Christmas present before my wife packed it away (a new book called "Parting the Clouds") specifically on the chapter on punch rotation. Mentioned are some facts and calcs also in this thread, but something he said leads me to my new hypothesis:
> 
> *the twist is there to promote the desired straight travel (elbows in) form. *
> 
> What do you think?


Also if I may ad to a very good point you make, elbow in while fist twists in, locks that battering ram of a punch down, to deliver much force. 
Not every strike is delivered like this, but every technique will have an ever so light involvement with the wrist, to augment the final contact.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 27, 2013)

Let's talk about twist fails. Don't wing the elbow, or you will hurt yourself.


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## seasoned (Nov 27, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> Let's talk about twist fails. Don't wing the elbow, or you will hurt yourself.


Great point!
But it could be rephrased as in "lets talk about Sensei fails" (slide your elbow along your torso).


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## SENC-33 (Nov 27, 2013)

seasoned said:


> Also if I may ad to a very good point you make, elbow in while fist twists in, locks that battering ram of a punch down, to deliver much force.
> Not every strike is delivered like this, but every technique will have an ever so light involvement with the wrist, to augment the final contact.



I am a huge advocate of articulating your wrist. It can make a world of difference in certain instances......

My first passion was Kuysho many years ago and the wrist articulation used to penetrate nerves and pressure points is still a point of emphasis in my striking today. In fact I probably couldn't work that out even if I tried. Combined with waveforms and ballistic striking techniques I hit harder, more effectively and with less effort than I did 20+ years ago.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 27, 2013)

Zero said:


> OK, so I take it that no one really actually employs the karate twisting punch in real life or tournament/full contact.


I have utilized the rotating punch in both sparring, tournament (WTF), and real world application.  I have also utilized other types of punches.  I have heard all manner of explanations for the rotating punch, right down to the idea that the twisting motion "tears flesh."  I don't buy into any of them; the rotating punch is simply another punch.

The only personal observation is that when striking, ideally you should remain relaxed, only tightening up at the moment of impact.  I see the rotation as simply a horizontal punch with the tightening at the end of the motion.  When taken as a whole, with hip rotation, etc., it simply is the tail end of a larger movement.  Correct punching is not just arm movement.  The point of impact is the culmination of the transferrance of energy from the body through the arm and finally into the hand.  

The rotating punch is a part of taekwondo and some karate ryu, and is taught from day one in TKD studios, but it is certainly not the only punching method, and is not the only punching method in taekwondo either, which also utilizes vertical fist strikes in as well.  I suspect that the various methods of throwing a punch are known to pretty much every culture that has ever experimented with punching.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 27, 2013)

seasoned said:


> Great point!
> But it could be rephrased as in "lets talk about Sensei fails" (slide your elbow along your torso).


They don't do it right, half the time, either. >_<


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 27, 2013)

This is such a complex motion and application, I wonder why we teach small women to defend with it.
Sean


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## seasoned (Nov 27, 2013)

In its original application, the punch, I generally have them focused towards softer targets, throat and groIn.
But as you know it's the motion that teaches so much more technique,  that opens doors up to so many other moves. gotta love it....


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## K-man (Nov 27, 2013)

I don't like the twist punch at all. In fact I wonder if it came from the time of open hand techniques before karate went into the schools and the open hand techniques became closed hand techniques. If you look at nukite then you can understand as you strike certain targets the hand needs to turn. Fast forward to closing the hands and voila ... the twisting punch. 

Just a thought.
:asian:


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## punisher73 (Nov 27, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> This is such a complex motion and application, I wonder why we teach small women to defend with it.
> Sean



Some food for thought.  In PPCT (A brandname of police defensive tactics), they only teach you to use the vertical punch as it's main punch.  If you look at "how" they select their techniques, this would be one of the reasons.  The techniques are chosen to be the simplest to learn with the least amount of practice to get the basic motion down.  As I show new people and explain it to them, if the attacker moves in while throwing a vertical punch, no worries because my body weapon is already formed and ready for impact.  But, if I am trying to use the twisting punch and the attacker moves in and I don't have the training etc. and it is in the process of twisting, I can easily injure the wrist.  The vertical punch takes out some of the distancing issues for newbies.


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## punisher73 (Nov 27, 2013)

K-man said:


> I don't like the twist punch at all. In fact I wonder if it came from the time of open hand techniques before karate went into the schools and the open hand techniques became closed hand techniques. If you look at nukite then you can understand as you strike certain targets the hand needs to turn. Fast forward to closing the hands and voila ... the twisting punch.
> 
> Just a thought.
> :asian:



Probably some truth to this idea.  If you look at the Sanchin kata of Uechi-Ryu and compare it to the Sanchin kata of Goju-Ryu, we know that the open hands were changed into the closed hands and it follows the same arm articulation for the strike for the nukite vs. horizontal punch.

I have also seen the idea presented in the chinese arts that the "twisting punch" was a conceptual idea to train 3 punches in one and their proper distances.  As the fist leaves the body the fist is upturned for an uppercut in close to the attacker.  The fist then starts to rotate slightly out and goes into a vertical punch for middle distance and then continues on into the horizontal phase for it's longest distance of the punch.

The other aspect to look at in this punch is targeting.  In styles like Goju-Ryu that utilize the full twist and palm down on impact with this punch, they target the pressure point located just below the pectoral in line with the nipple, and this punch fits nicely into that spot due to the horizontal orientation of the rib.  Other styles, that say that they originally used the 3/4 twist or diamond punch usually target the solar plexus as the main target, which that configuration works best.  In some styles like Shorin-Ryu (Chotoku-Kyan's lineage), they use a "rising punch" to target the face and that was a vertical punch.

When things got changed up to teach large groups of school children, many of these punches ALL got changed into a twisting horiztonal punch that remains parrallel to the ground and the shoulders squared.  Which when we look at, we should immediately realize has no foundation in application because there is no target that the punch fits into nicely without changing height/angle or the degree the fist is rotated.


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## K-man (Nov 28, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> The other aspect to look at in this punch is targeting.  In styles like Goju-Ryu that utilize the full twist and palm down on impact with this punch, they target the pressure point located just below the pectoral in line with the nipple, and this punch fits nicely into that spot due to the horizontal orientation of the rib.  Other styles, that say that they originally used the 3/4 twist or diamond punch usually target the solar plexus as the main target, which that configuration works best.  In some styles like Shorin-Ryu (Chotoku-Kyan's lineage), they use a "rising punch" to target the face and that was a vertical punch.
> 
> When things got changed up to teach large groups of school children, many of these punches ALL got changed into a twisting horiztonal punch that remains parrallel to the ground and the shoulders squared.  Which when we look at, we should immediately realize has no foundation in application because there is no target that the punch fits into nicely without changing height/angle or the degree the fist is rotated.


I'm not sure that your information on the full twist is totally accurate. In Okinawa at the Jundokan, Goju Ryu, it was explained that the fist was 'natural', that is a normal alignment about half way between vertical and horizontal. Traditionally Uechi Ryu had virtually no closed fist punches at all and Isshin Ryu have the vertical fist. Shorin Ryu has conflicting information ranging from the near vertical to the full twist depending on where you read about it.
:asian:


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## skribs (Nov 28, 2013)

In my TKD class, we practice traditional TKD punches and we do punches similar to boxing/MT.  

When doing TKD punches, the straight punch (vertical punch to nose or underhand punch to gut) is good for short range, while the twisting punch is better for medium range.  I think it flows better with hip movement than a straight punch.
When doing the boxing motions, the little bit of twist brings up your shoulder, which protects your face but exposes your armpit.  I also feel you get more power (maybe slightly less control) this way.

When sparring in TKD, I find punches are used mainly at short range, so I don't have the range to get twist off.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 28, 2013)

skribs said:


> In my TKD class, we practice traditional TKD punches and we do punches similar to boxing/MT.
> 
> When doing TKD punches, the straight punch (vertical punch to nose or underhand punch to gut) is good for short range, while the twisting punch is better for medium range.  I think it flows better with hip movement than a straight punch.
> When doing the boxing motions, the little bit of twist brings up your shoulder, which protects your face but exposes your armpit.  I also feel you get more power (maybe slightly less control) this way.
> ...


Then move in.


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## skribs (Nov 28, 2013)

I do.  Many of the people in my class forget about punches in sparring.  When both people close in, they check their kicks and back off.  I'll just keep moving in throwing punches.


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## punisher73 (Nov 28, 2013)

K-man said:


> I'm not sure that your information on the full twist is totally accurate. In Okinawa at the Jundokan, Goju Ryu, it was explained that the fist was 'natural', that is a normal alignment about half way between vertical and horizontal. Traditionally Uechi Ryu had virtually no closed fist punches at all and Isshin Ryu have the vertical fist. Shorin Ryu has conflicting information ranging from the near vertical to the full twist depending on where you read about it.
> :asian:



It could be a variation on lineage as well.  The Goju that I saw, it was explained this way as to the full rotation and targeting the pressure point under the pectoral (thru Morio Higaonna).  I also mentioned that some styles do use the 3/4 punch, as it sounds like the Jundokan does.  May I ask what the Jundokan's primary target is with that punch?  The solar plexus or under the pectoral, or somewhere else?  

As to Uechi-Ryu, you are right that they did not have the horizontal twist punch originally.  It was a one knuckle punch or spearhand (yes, there are some other configurations used, just sticking with the twisting horizontal motion).  Kanei Uechi added the twist punch for beginners in Kanshiwa kata (although, I have been told some schools use the one knuckle punch in it's place and do not use the horizontal punch at all).  I also did not mention them in my post because they really don't use that punch as a primary weapon.  In fact, you could make a case that it is only a recent addition for beginners before moving on.  

Isshin-Ryu uses the vertical punch to the solar plexus, but uses other punches based on height requirements.  For example, to hit the bladder they use the horizontal punch palm down to strike it.  For striking the face/chin area they use an uppercut.

If you re-read about Shorin-Ryu, I didn't say that they didn't use the horizontal punch.  It's just that in the Kyan lineage that punch was used for targets on the main body and to attack a higher target like the face, they changed the punch and used a vertical punch.  I'm not sure what some of the other branches of Shorin Ryu do that have incorporated other teachings do.

I'm still not sure where what I posted contradicts what you have said.  But, I probably did need to clarify more.

I also still believe that the twisting horizontal punch as we see it throughout ALL of the kata after it was influenced by the Japanese is based more on asthetics than application.


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## K-man (Nov 28, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> It could be a variation on lineage as well.  The Goju that I saw, it was explained this way as to the full rotation and targeting the pressure point under the pectoral (thru Morio Higaonna).  I also mentioned that some styles do use the 3/4 punch, as it sounds like the Jundokan does.  May I ask what the Jundokan's primary target is with that punch?  The solar plexus or under the pectoral, or somewhere else?
> 
> To be honest, I have no idea what they would call a primary target. Certainly most of Taira Sensei's punches are one knuckle punches. Flat punch to the side of the head and jaw perhaps but palm heel was often used there. Flat punches weren't big deal except in drills.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen much of Higaonna's work beyond his early kata and bunkai explanation that was very similar to what was subsequently adopted by the Goju Kai.


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## seasoned (Nov 30, 2013)

K-man said:


> I'm not sure that your information on the full twist is totally accurate. In Okinawa at the Jundokan, Goju Ryu, it was explained that the fist was 'natural', that is a normal alignment about half way between vertical and horizontal. Traditionally Uechi Ryu had virtually no closed fist punches at all and Isshin Ryu have the vertical fist. Shorin Ryu has conflicting information ranging from the near vertical to the full twist depending on where you read about it.
> :asian:



If by natural you mean, as the arm hangs at the side and swings as in walking, if we were to stop the arm at the top end of the swing forward and make a fist, it would form a 3/4" punch. In my chamber the fist is closed with the thumb and baby finger both touching the rib cage with elbow pointing downward. 

When I first learned the chamber it was palm up closed fist to fist out to target palm down creating a full twist. In time as lineage changed so did the configuration.

But, I digress


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## ballen0351 (Nov 30, 2013)

To me its natural to twist my punch. I was taught thatway as a child in my very first class and have been taught and trained that way all my life.  So I never thought about it.  It just is for me.


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## seasoned (Nov 30, 2013)

I can't argue there, been doing it for a long time myself.


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## K-man (Nov 30, 2013)

seasoned said:


> If by natural you mean, as the arm hangs at the side and swings as in walking, if we were to stop the arm at the top end of the swing forward and make a fist, it would form a 3/4" punch. In my chamber the fist is closed with the thumb and baby finger both touching the rib cage with elbow pointing downward.
> 
> When I first learned the chamber it was palm up closed fist to fist out to target palm down creating a full twist. In time as lineage changed so did the configuration.
> 
> But, I digress


Really interesting point. If you do what you described above, forgetting the chamber for the minute, you have all the principles of the Systema punch. If you change the fist to strike with the index figure knuckle you have Taira's favourite strike. The power of both comes from the movement of the body. In both cases the strikes come from a relaxed arm and the final angle of the fist depends on the target.

I was taught chamber the same way but to me now chamber has nothing to do with the punch. The chambered hand has different positions in different kata, some palm up, some palm down, some fist closed, some hand open all depending on application.

We digress together.


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## seasoned (Nov 30, 2013)

K-man said:


> Really interesting point. If you do what you described above, forgetting the chamber for the minute, you have all the principles of the Systema punch. If you change the fist to strike with the index figure knuckle you have Taira's favourite strike. The power of both comes from the movement of the body. In both cases the strikes come from a relaxed arm and the final angle of the fist depends on the target.
> 
> *I was taught chamber the same way but to me now chamber has nothing to do with the punch. The chambered hand has different positions in different kata, some palm up, some palm down, some fist closed, some hand open all depending on application.
> 
> *We digress together.


And rightfully so, the beginner has to have a place for that withdrawing hand so it's not just "dead meat" as it was called many moons ago when the newer students would forget about it and just concentrate on the forward hand.........

Thread now drifting back to center.  an Aikido thing... ya know


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## K-man (Nov 30, 2013)

seasoned said:


> And rightfully so, the beginner has to have a place for that withdrawing hand so it's not just "dead meat" as it was called many moons ago when the newer students would forget about it and just concentrate on the forward hand.........
> 
> Thread now drifting back to center.  an Aikido thing... ya know


Well to totally digress ... my pet hate.

When in any form of MA and you ask someone to strike with one hand and they leave the other arm hanging. Yep, that's a realistic attack! Yet you see it in videos that people post, time after time, especially in Aikido.

I know ... :-offtopic


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## CNida (Dec 1, 2013)

When I trained in MMA during my time stationed in South Korea, our boxing instructor had us practicing all punches with a vertical fist and there were two primary reasons for this:

1: Incorrectly used, you could tweak your forearm and wrist. I've done it;

2: Inexperienced fighters tend to twist their punching hand way too soon, and thus the strike is telegraphed. I couldn't tell you how many times my punches went off their mark in practice because I was turning my fist before I even threw the punch.

I would venture to say that turning your fist in a punch is something that you need to train a lot, same as digging your hips into a kick or correct body placement in grappling techniques.

Just my .02 cents which is actually worth much less than that. 


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous


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