# Video me frustrated sparring



## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2015)

There's nothing like being frustrated with myself, tired from doing some crazy cardio sparring, sparring against someone with long reach, and just being on Empty.  It's a good thing he had more energy than I did.  That day made me step up my training.

Frustrated Kung Fu Video


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 2, 2015)

NICE CLIP:


JowGaWolf said:


> There's nothing like being frustrated with myself, tired from doing some crazy cardio sparring, sparring against someone with long reach, and just being on Empty.  It's a good thing he had more energy than I did.  That day made me step up my training.


\
Sparring when tired leads to little to no improvement.
\
Why I spend most all of my time building the base TMA strengths....
\
@0.43: Priceless.  Your opponent is in a weak stance & body posture.  Shotokan 1-STEP technique from traditional guard (you're doing some circular combination somewhat out of stance that leaves your face wide open) would take care of opponent completely in a second or less...
\
A kenpo law states that: "Circle-beats-line (straight); yet Line-beats-circle...  hence the risk that a linear technique will beat-out a circular technique unless a number of countervailing factors are lined up.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 2, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's nothing like being frustrated with myself, tired from doing some crazy cardio sparring, sparring against someone with long reach, and just being on Empty.  It's a good thing he had more energy than I did.  That day made me step up my training.


\
I know your sparring approach is this as a learning exercise.... But in the traditional 1-steps, either the opponent or you close the distance before initiating technique.... PERIOD....  The actual time period for that can be very compressed....
\
I typically don't try the "lunge forward" which we see you doing.... or Jai Harman & Co. @ times... hoping to out-react the opponent... which here with his reach & fresh energy he is able to back peddle....  I wait until the opponent approaches or alternatively deliberately advance on the opponent... I can also run at them (no into them mindset) if necessary....
\
I don't generally trade punches...which I see you and your partner doing....  The overall working goal of the karate kumite traditional exercises is to turn his actions to your advantage.... make them into a vulnerability.... this requires proper tactical execution.
\
TIME: 0:05. Opponent is wide open for rear round kick to face.  This is also the precise moment to engage via 1-step tactics...I prefer hands....  Instead, you move away from his jabbing left hand.... I would actively embrace that jab with zero fear..... the danger is in his lowered right... he's too out-of-position to do much of a leg strike...
\
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An overall comment on the opponent's use of the jab..... which you do the conventional backing away from....  which is contrary to 1-step principles....
\
You can jab at me all you want 'cause either I will do nothing 'cause it's out of range (essentially a feint); Or I will neutralize the jab from my guard....  I will take on the jab and disable, deflect, or otherwise dismantle the opponent's objective of intimidating or striking me with it...  with that weapon temporarily negated, the opponent is now vulnerable to counter...
\
It's all presented in the 1-steps, WC drills I posted, etc. etc..... what it take is the mental capability to act, not react.... mental discipline... which another poster @ the MT vs. WC thread said my WC traditional drills weren't competent in a real fight.... So we are right back to Jai-Like kickboxing.... re your opponent's style.....
\
Nice training clip outlining the issues....


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> I know your sparring approach is this as a learning exercise.... But in the traditional 1-steps, either the opponent or you close the distance before initiating technique.... PERIOD....  The actual time period for that can be very compressed....
> \
> I typically don't try the "lunge forward" which we see you doing.... or Jai Harman & Co. @ times... hoping to out-react the opponent... which here with his reach & fresh energy he is able to back peddle....  I wait until the opponent approaches or alternatively deliberately advance on the opponent... I can also run at them (no into them mindset) if necessary....
> ...


My kung fu brothers and I were sparring with another school where we go 45 seconds and then get a fresh guy every 45 seconds.  It's good training because I had to really dig deep.  The only problem is that I let emotion get the best of me by getting frustrated. That lunge forward was me trying to swing on empty with zero energy left, but it's not an excuse because even when I have zero energy I should still have focus and control.  Jai Harman was leaning when he was fresh. lol.  I think this is the one video that I watch the most because it's the only time where I really defeated myself.  

My sparring partner used to be a boxer so he likes using his reach to jab and keep people on the outside.  Unfortunate for me the only way I know how to close the gap is to attack low using my legs. I really don't know how to get in close with my fist when I'm sparring someone who is taller.  That's something I'll need to work on.



ShotoNoob said:


> TIME: 0:05. Opponent is wide open for rear round kick to face.


  yeah about kicks.  The rules that day were that we couldn't use kicks or sweeps.  That's why our kicks looked the way they did lol.  I never know what the rules will be when I go spar with the students at that school.  It's their place so we have to play with by their rules.  I'll definitely take your comments into consideration because with out my legs, I have a really hard time trying to close the gap on someone taller.

To be honest I'm open suggestion on how to close the gap on a taller person without kicking.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 3, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> To be honest I'm open suggestion on how to close the gap on a taller person without kicking.



Go backwards so that he is coming forwards. Then close the gap so to react he has to stop and change direction. Rather than trying to rush him. Which let's him keep any distance he wants an pick you off.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Go backwards so that he is coming forwards. Then close the gap so to react he has to stop and change direction. Rather than trying to rush him. Which let's him keep any distance he wants an pick you off.


I'll give this a try. Drawing him in is the one thing that I didn't try.  Even when I look at some of my earlier videos I can tell that I'm focused on "getting in."  Thanks


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 3, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> My kung fu brothers and I were sparring with another school where we go 45 seconds and then get a fresh guy every 45 seconds.  It's good training because I had to really dig deep.  The only problem is that I let emotion get the best of me by getting frustrated. That lunge forward was me trying to swing on empty with zero energy left, but it's not an excuse because even when I have zero energy I should still have focus and control.  Jai Harman was leaning when he was fresh. lol.  I think this is the one video that I watch the most because it's the only time where I really defeated myself.


\
Well I have participated in those kind of drills.  The mind can not work properly when the body is collapsing......  we're human.  Again  why the base building is more important in my book. I don't think you defeated yourself at all.... you reached your endurance limits.... nature took over simple as that....



JowGaWolf said:


> My sparring partner used to be a boxer so he likes using his reach to jab and keep people on the outside.  Unfortunate for me the only way I know how to close the gap is to attack low using my legs. I really don't know how to get in close with my fist when I'm sparring someone who is taller.  That's something I'll need to work on.


\
Closing the gap is a mental exercise.... the body is simply following direction....  However, the dynamics of TMA mental discipline are not easy to quick to develop... there's your challenge, IMHO... not that you failed to be superhuman or infallible...
\
YOur opponent is a challenging one... And good boxing works... TMA is better but you have to have trained the proper TMA to get TMA better.....  This is the huge TMA caveat....



JowGaWolf said:


> yeah about kicks.  The rules that day were that we couldn't use kicks or sweeps.  That's why our kicks looked the way they did lol.  I never know what the rules will be when I go spar with the students at that school.  It's their place so we have to play with by their rules.  I'll definitely take your comments into consideration because with out my legs, I have a really hard time trying to close the gap on someone taller.


\
Yeah, I saw that tactical leg techniques... that was good tactics on both parts....  I mostly rely on hands 'cause I'm not all that a natural athlete....  I can nearly always get it done with linear punches....
\
The beauty of the 1-steps, if you can develop the mental dimension.... is that a larger reach only becomes a mere annoyance.... Because you learn out to block and neutralize the opponents limbs...  You block, remove the opponents limb as an obstacle or a threat... and counter into the vulnerable opening....  The fact that the Jai Harman vids don't really show that suggests TMA ability doesn't exist there....



JowGaWolf said:


> To be honest I'm open suggestion on how to close the gap on a taller person without kicking.


\
Well, first of all there are boxing methods to do this....  I know the TMA approach as a general rule....  Without the mental discipline.... the 1-steps don't really work.... that's the overriding caveat...
\
I've put up 1-step karate videos a number of times here... but they haven't been popular on MT.  I post a kata video, the 1st Taikyoku, as a start.




\
It's so simple physically, yet so hard mentally to learn to do this more dynamically than your opponent can react....  that's the end working objective.  Pardon the over-physical movements of the Shotokan female demo, it's endemic to how Shotokan is practiced...  The mental discipline Shotokan lesson is do you moments like you mean them with strength & KIME.  As opposed to the kickboxing Jai Harman vids where techniques are being winged out of posture and position, off balance...etc, etc, etc,,,
\
Believe it or not,,, I step and strike all the time.  I block & strike all the time, just like the kihon karte form in the vid above.... But I have the mental discipline to pull this off correctly by strong KIME, as well as whole basket of mental skills....  I mentally speed it up or slow it down as the situation calls for....  It's a mental process...
\
EDIT: This  female black belt does the opening correctly by Shotokan form, which is not a ritual or some artistic opening... which all most no one gets....  Tactically, she also does the bow correctly since she doesn't look down at the floor.... eyes always facing the action...
\
EDIT2: Actually by Shotokan form, she is doing an excellent job of building the base TMA strengths in every move, everything she is doing in this beginner kata....  And no it's not for children....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 3, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> To be honest I'm open suggestion on how to close the gap on a taller person without kicking.


\
HERE'S A Tang soo Do rendition of 1-steps and closing the distance



\
First, two criticisms, which 'cause TMA to stink, hence the Jai Harman approach to sparring so popular.
\
Criticism #1: Ditch the 'awesome' attitude.  TMA is not some fun, nifty, cool game where you can stroke you ego by doing cool stuff.... That is a lack of mental discipline... and the Girl Black Belt in the Shotokan,Taikyouku kata vid has the proper serious comportment....  Get serious, says Shotokan karate , even if they overdo it they are serious....
|
Criticism #2:  The opening movements of their 1-steps have zero mental discipline... they are just doing empty ritual.... The opening is critically important... it is not aestheitc art or some traditional hokey stuff... Get serious about understanding on what kata is conveying at every instant... what the purpose /objectives of TMA training are...  They way these TKD black belts are proceeding... Jai Harman or your boxing brother is going to take their heads off and make MMA fools out of them....
\
CASE 1 ON CLOSING THE DISTANCE: Now, take the very first 1-step... Partner steps IN on you partially closing the distance.  You step AHEAD in an competently close the distance.  His straight punch jab, whatever the hell he is striking is knocked up and out of the way.  You strike middle to the vulnerable opening created..  That's the concept...  this case, OPPONENT BEGINS TO MOVE IN YOU THEN MOVE AHEAD IN TO STRIKING RANGE AND SMASH HIM.
\
CASE #2: YOUR OPPONENT STEPS IN MAYBE COMES AT YOU HARD... YOU STEP TO THE SIDE AND COUNTER AS HIS TECHNIQUE SAILS STRAIGHT AHEAD..  This i-step adopts evasion and re positioning.  Active blocking defense is downplayed.  Note you step ahead& engage, not back peddle all around the Octagon or duck and cover dancing in th boxing ring every time the opponent does something re the Jai Harman sparring vids...
\
CASE 3 is an offshoot of #1;  Active knife hand block is used as check block as opposed to the very basic high power block in CASE #1.  Different block for different tactic objectives, different kind of punch it's up to you to match the blocks to the strikes effectively...
\
Now, these are teaching the basic principles of where engaging will work.... What if the opponent hovers outside of range?  ?Either you don't do anything, or you go on the offensive by taking the first move...  when the opponent responds with whatever you go into 1s-tep mode.
\
In your boxing brother example, and with his longer reach it's more challenging,,, but not much if you're mentally disciplined... Instead of handling the straight punch in the 1-steps, you use precisely the same principles to handle his jab -- namely you neutralize it through technique combined with a winning 1-step strategy...  Can you develop the mental discipline advanced by the 1-step practices... to engage your boxing brother by faster thinking than he can react...??  that's the working objective of 1-step try to isolate out... though the same maxim is present in all TMA exercises...
\
Around 1:30 we see a massive fail on the kick combo ' cause the defender is merely performing for the crowd... which is mouthing commentary & voicing expressions.... addin to a party atmosphere, not good.  Doing 1-step like play time or recreational fun boys is as about as stupid by TMA as you can get... and these guys are black belts... They need to go over an take ie ENTIRE black-belt curriculum under the mental tutelage of the Shotokan Female doing the Taikyoku kata.
\
No matter how many techniques or belt-tests they have taken... Jai Harman and your boxing brother are going to humiliate these guys acting like this..., pretty much....


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> HERE'S A Tang soo Do rendition of 1-steps and closing the distance
> 
> 
> ...


I'll see what techniques there are in my fighting system that are similar and I'll give it a try.  The good thing is that when sparring with them I can afford to take a few hits to the face when trying to learn how to use a technique, so if I make a mistake it won't be a costly one.  The punch will hurt just enough to be a good lesson, but not enough to break my jaw or knock me out.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 3, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll see what techniques there are in my fighting system that are similar and I'll give it a try.  The good thing is that when sparring with them I can afford to take a few hits to the face when trying to learn how to use a technique, so if I make a mistake it won't be a costly one.  The punch will hurt just enough to be a good lesson, but not enough to break my jaw or knock me out.


\
The mental discipline goal of the 1-steps is you develop the capability to do the hitting.... and to actively defend against the offensive moves of your opponent..... You don't get hit....  here's a kenpo version of 1-steps at full force.... Jeff Speakman Perfect Weapon....  Now kenpo depends on lightning speed... which is not necessary.... Kenpo to me is analogous to Leopard- style kung fu, in applied form...  Shotokan by contrast is slow-moving Tiger.  But Shotokan doesn't have to be as fast as Kenpo... it has to be more dynamic overall, so dynamic that the opponent can't handle or react fast enough...  and that can be very fast...  



Here's the YT vid,,, I really like the tactic STARTING @  3:42.  This is classic 1-step.  Originally Speakman moves back against his opponent... I rarely ever move back.... I meet the attack and engage...  He does, on the 3rd technique, take a stand & counter... not circle over all of the "MMA Octagon."  Then he moves in on the second attack....I never use a spinning back fist cause simple kihon strikes smash just as good... and are less risky and more direct (the lesson of Taikyoku kata yet again.)t...  I fight just like Speakman in that exchange... not at his kenpo pace....
\
iN THAT Tactic, Speakman doesn't move his head, duck or cover... bob & weave. float a jab, wing a Jake Ellenberger overhand power right.... though some go high go low boxing combo feint then strike combo... it's all KIME-D to perfection....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 3, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> JowGaWolf said:
> 
> 
> > I'll see what techniques there are in my fighting system that are similar and I'll give it a try.  The good thing is that when sparring with them I can afford to take a few hits to the face when trying to learn how to use a technique, so if I make a mistake it won't be a costly one.  The punch will hurt just enough to be a good lesson, but not enough to break my jaw or knock me out.


\
I'm having a tough time finding kung fu versions... that's because kung fu historically was all forms.... TMU...IMO.. The Okinawan's later on broke kung fu down to make it easier to understand, train & learn... and apply.... problably some chinese martial artists did this with chinese kempo, tehe kenpo's as well....  Let the lineage experts figure that out...
\
I finally typed in CMA fighting drills and this popped up.




Lot's of McDojoeee action going on... until you look closer and watch particular individuals....   This is TMA base building that makes the Shotokan Taikyoku kata look like TMA for dummies....  Again, the problem is the CMA base is far, far above the karate base.  So it's much easier to go through the motions and get nothing whereas the Shotokan curriculum forces you to be serious... if you practice it the way it was intended by the founders...   With Shotokan it is made obvious by the style that you exert a high level of effort.... With CMA,,,, one can end up doing aerobic-fu... and become an excellent ballerina that the Jai Harman's then wipes the floor with...  The mental engagement of kung fu is much more intense and demanding than karate, much more.... much. much, much, much, more....
\
EDIT: The stupid kicking shield drills @ Time 0:34 I would throw out the window.... this is modern sport crap....  great for sports-mined and wannabees...
\
TIME 0.54: BAsic Kung fu drills including disciplined (key word) movement.... not bouncing, prancing, randomly herky jerky circling all over.... not boxing fancy footwork.... DISCIPLINE & POWER BUILDING... which incidentally are incorporated in simpler form in the 3rd Taikyouku kata (not for children).
\
This CMA training is 100x harder than the karates as a group, for argument sake...  For those doing it as a gym exercise, it is a total TMA loss....  It's all mental from day 1.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 3, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll give this a try. Drawing him in is the one thing that I didn't try.  Even when I look at some of my earlier videos I can tell that I'm focused on "getting in."  Thanks


\
Here's a solid difference between boxing & sport fighting and TMA.  I don't really care about getting my opponent to come in, or as you say actively drawing him in....  Trying to induce action in your opponent is more of a sport fighting tenant.  Of course TMA doesn't rule this out.
\
The lesson of 1-steps is that is isn't that you are trying to get your opponent to do something.... it's that when he does something, whatever he does, you can out act his action.
\
If your boxing brother comes at me hard I will meet him with say an evasive action and then destroy him.  If your boxing brother hovers out-of-range, I will advance on him and destroy him....  If your boxing brother stands in front of me and wait for me to make the 1st move, I can either continue to wait, or I can make the 1st move and destroy him....
\
Whatever the opponent does, you are prepared to take action and destroy him.... This is why I don't use feints... I take action that the opponent can't cope with, can't withstand... the Jeff Speakman 1-step THE PERFECT WEAPON.  No guessing games... no trick, tricky,,,, It's KIME and it's over very quickly....




Here's the much easier & more physical Shotokan version of closing the distance on Boxing Brother... all done with the same stance and movement principles in Shotokan karate kihon, kata & kumite exercises.. sometimes over-hyped IMO... but again that's endemic to the style and how they adapt to actual application...  One can always take up 100x harder kung fu
\
Where's the cat & mouse we see in your sparring videos,,, the Jai Harman sparring videos????
ANSWER: THERE IS NONE!!!!!!.  IT'S ALL SIMPLIFIED *TIGER* KUNG FU....
\
Boxing brother... Jai Harman"""" WC""""?????. good luck against that.....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 3, 2015)

JaGow, you though you were frustrated from your sparring session.... now you have a taste of frustration of dealing with me....  my poor opponents in class...
\
Here's ronda rousey training under Edmond Tarverdyan, who the latter in my opinion is a decent professional MMA fighter...
\
By boxing standards... this is solid training...  By TMA standards it is garbage.




How does what i do stack up against a boxer hitting hard and fast.... it's difficult.  It all boils down to my mental discipline over physical athletics.. the latter which Ronda excels...
\
If Ronda is punching fast I have to act faster in effect.  I have to use the combination of principles and tactics in 1-steps to out move her speed & strength...
\
The 1-step approach works once you realize from the very first one, that your opponent's 1st real offense move either leaves an opening, or creates an opportunity which you can actively use to create an opening.... My treatise on 1-steps oversimplified...  you must be mentally adept enough to see this & mentally disciplined enough to act on this...  If you can not muster to the latter, 1-steps are a complete waste of time & effort.... as is TMA of any kind IMO...
\
In that case, then one should go over and sign up with Edmond or Jai......  that's my position on sparring....
\
Good luck....


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> The lesson of 1-steps is that is isn't that you are trying to get your opponent to do something.... it's that when he does something, whatever he does, you can out act his action.


 This is different from how I fight even when sparring.  My goal is to control the fight mentally and physically.  The punches that my opponent are by my choosing and not his.  I'm ahead of the fight when I know what punches are going to be thrown.  My reaction is based on what I see before it comes instead of what I see when it comes.  The better I can do these things the faster and more deadlier I'll be.  The last thing I want to do in a fight is to be trying to guess what is going to come at me.  I rather bait than wait.

You also have to keep in mind that in the video we weren't allowed to kick, because the Sanda school only wanted to work on punches and hand take downs.  I'm fine if I can use my legs. So I'm asking from a sporting perspective and not a self defense one.  The videos that you are showing are from people who are the same height.  Not only that but some of the videos are from movies, which means you have to be careful of where a technique may exist vs one that doesn't.

Here's one from bruce lee fighting someone taller than he is. In the movie he closes the gap by using his legs.





The same approach is taken here





I understand those 2 things because I know it works really well on tall people. I got video showing me easily closing the distance. 
This won't work because if you notice his slips the punch but still doesn't reach the body.  He reaches the pad but the bad isn't the body.




I know most boxers will slip the jab and then defend the follow up punch fit if it comes while still moving in.  Each time closes the gap, I want to have something that's closer to martial arts before I try something else that's in a totally different martial arts system

Oh and for the record Jai Harman isn't tall so I'll be good to go with closing the gap on someone like that even if kicking wasn't allowed.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> I'm having a tough time finding kung fu versions.


 You won't find much on kung fu in terms of using actual kung fu technique (for the reason you stated many only do forms competition).



ShotoNoob said:


> aerobic-fu


I definitely don't have to worry about this happening with me. 



ShotoNoob said:


> The stupid kicking shield drills @ Time 0:34 I would throw out the window


 My school only does this type of drill when we want to kick something solid and for conditioning for the impact that occurs on the kicking leg.  Other than that we kick each other without the pads because we use techniques that attack kicking leg. The only way the students can learn the techniques is to actually have someone try to kick them.  The better the students get the harder the opponent can kick.



ShotoNoob said:


> By boxing standards... this is solid training... By TMA standards it is garbage.


 Students at my school doesn't do this type of training either.  We punch heavy bags and pads without the gloves because it teaches proper punching technique. One of the students took tkd for about 6 years and he punched the a pad the wrong way and it took a little skin off the knuckles. This happened because the punch was incorrect.  No matter what angle I punch my target all of the force needs to go into my target.  The heavy bad teaches the same lesson.  Punching without gloves teaches correct punching technique and delivers more power.  It's also good for conditioning the hands.

She has great hand an eye coordination, but in Jow Ga we accept that we are going to get hit by a couple of punches and because of this acceptance we condition our bodies to be able to resist the impact better. A hard punch or hard kick is only good if it lands solid so if a person will be ok with taking a hard shot if they can prevent it from landing solid.



ShotoNoob said:


> If Ronda is punching fast I have to act faster in effect


  For me. it's more like: If Ronda is punching fast then I have to start my action before she starts hers. If I can do this then I don't have to be fast. I just have to read her attacks well enough to act before she throws her punch.

I think you are underestimating the value of sparring.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 3, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think you are underestimating the value of sparring




Just to put you on the right page here. His stance is that kime puts you on a plane of existence that makes you above physical techniques. 

So sparring becomes a pointless exercise.
Eg. This.





That you develop an awareness so in tune that you understand the system rather than just compete with the other guy.

Look I think it would be cool if you could pull it off. I don't think you can.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Just to put you on the right page here. His stance is that kime puts you on a plane of existence that makes you above physical techniques.
> 
> So sparring becomes a pointless exercise.
> Eg. This.
> ...


Jow Ga doesn't have that much zen if any.  So far the perspective of Jow Ga Sifu's have been more along this line:





If I show a video of Monday's training then you would see this same attitude lol.


----------



## Dinkydoo (Nov 4, 2015)

Apparently he also has free reign to call MMA practitioners fools and claim that Kungfu > Karate and TMAs are better than > Combat Sports


----------



## drop bear (Nov 4, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> Apparently he also has free reign to call MMA practitioners fools and claim that Kungfu > Karate and TMAs are better than > Combat Sports



Well obviously. Mma is not as good as matrix powers. Stands to reason.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> Apparently he also has free reign to call MMA practitioners fools and claim that Kungfu > Karate and TMAs are better than > Combat Sports


???assuming this is to shotonoob.


----------



## Dinkydoo (Nov 4, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> ???assuming this is to shotonoob.


Yea, unless you've said those things and I've missed it


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> Yea, unless you've said those things and I've missed it


Not unless I'm losing my mind lol.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 4, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I know most boxers will slip the jab and then defend the follow up punch fit if it comes while still moving in.  Each time closes the gap, I want to have something that's closer to martial arts before I try something else that's in a totally different martial arts system


\
Ok, but I don't see the connection to CMA proper...  As far as boxing (kickboxing) science goes, every point you put forth makes sense to me....  Especially the "Angle-Out & Round Kick...." tactic against the jab...
\
Couple of interesting points on the YT vid above.... 
\
1. The tactic shorty uses to infight the longer reach is equally and easly blocked by tall instructor in the demo.  So you are assuming or trying to have a faster reaction time to pull of shorty's manuever against the longer reach.... Good Luck with that....
\
2. Shorty's head movement to slip the jab.... places him @ a disadvantage line-of-vision, hence concentration wise.  Traditional karate kihon never does such for that reason.... among others..... So again, good luck with that against a tough opponent.
|
Again in summary... by boxing, conventional MMA, all your tactics make perfect sense from what I know of....  So in complete agreement  on that premise....


JowGaWolf said:


> Oh and for the record Jai Harman isn't tall so I'll be good to go with closing the gap on someone like that even if kicking wasn't allowed.


\
Ok.  Muay Thai stylists are re-nouned for being good, hard kickers.... so Good Luck with that....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 4, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's one from bruce lee fighting someone taller than he is. In the movie he closes the gap by using his legs.


\
There's a number of video on YT of traditional karate style 1-steps presenting the exact same principle(s)...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 4, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> You won't find much on kung fu in terms of using actual kung fu technique (for the reason you stated many only do forms competition).


\
Ok, we're set there.


JowGaWolf said:


> I definitely don't have to worry about this happening with me.


\
You've to me proved you can wear yourself out...  so let's move on...



JowGaWolf said:


> My school only does this type of drill when we want to kick something solid and for conditioning for the impact that occurs on the kicking leg.  Other than that we kick each other without the pads because we use techniques that attack kicking leg. The only way the students can learn the techniques is to actually have someone try to kick them.  The better the students get the harder the opponent can kick.


\
Do you have video... would be helpful to visualize....  I'm not against kick shield drills altogether.... it's just that starting out this way.... and depending on the pad rather than yourself is anti-TMA.  Actually kicking against the opponent is more akin the the 1-step structure or other partner kihon karate technique drills....  Shotokan instructors can go into great depth on  this.... which is overkill IMO.... the point they are making is along the same lines as yours....



JowGaWolf said:


> Students at my school doesn't do this type of training either.  We punch heavy bags and pads without the gloves because it teaches proper punching technique. One of the students took tkd for about 6 years and he punched the a pad the wrong way and it took a little skin off the knuckles. This happened because the punch was incorrect.  No matter what angle I punch my target all of the force needs to go into my target.  The heavy bad teaches the same lesson.  Punching without gloves teaches correct punching technique and delivers more power.  It's also good for conditioning the hands.


\
Sorry, Wrong.  The individual either does the proper technique or doesn't....  The execution of technique, is strictly speaking, wholly  an internal process...  this is one of the huge lessons of TMA theory... version sport approaches which assume as you do that resistance, the feedback from same is necessary....  I agree on no gloves...
\
The TKD stylist did it wrong for 6 years.  *HE* DID IT WRONG.  The value of resistance is that it provides tangible feedback....  However, it's more important to understand how to do the technique correctly.  If you understand how to do the technique correctly in principle... the  technique with practice will be correct.  With the required mental discipline... this will be ever more so....  With no mental discipline, you technique will tend to be sloppy and then the heavy bag or other resistance will tell you so.
\
I agree on the heavy bag for conditioning & feedback & testing.  Power punching can be developed from punching air as well...  Power generation is an internal process.. Whether one develops such through reacting to feedback from a heavy bag or from the mental concentration internally.... they are two separate routes that overlap and exist at the same time....  HOw one actually develops power is art .  I really don't use a heavy bag much... so I'm a bit of a TMA purist....



JowGaWolf said:


> She has great hand an eye coordination, but in Jow Ga we accept that we are going to get hit by a couple of punches and because of this acceptance we condition our bodies to be able to resist the impact better. A hard punch or hard kick is only good if it lands solid so if a person will be ok with taking a hard shot if they can prevent it from landing solid.


\
Well this is where free sparring does come into play in the TMA model.  Taking hard shots is anti-TMA because of the potential damage and for injury....  Such conditioning and even hard conditioning does exist in the TMA model.... but it is not emphasized in most styles...  The issue of conditioning is legitimate and is under-emphasized... I go along with that...  This is also where the mental discipline comes into play as well, in that your mind is strong and pain has less of an impact than to an undisciplined person who is affected by emotion and pain easily....



JowGaWolf said:


> For me. it's more like: If Ronda is punching fast then I have to start my action before she starts hers. If I can do this then I don't have to be fast. I just have to read her attacks well enough to act before she throws her punch.


\
Traditional Shotokan karate goes into this process @ length in terms of concept & principle... though it's universal in all TMA.  WC especially is specialized in this area (way beyond me).  Good luck with reading attacks as a sport fighter.... I don't see this done successfully in sport fighting as a general rule....most common with opponents who mindlessly repeat the same gambit or mistake over & over & over & over.  I think we are on the same wavelength in terms of tactics TM wise...



JowGaWolf said:


> I think you are underestimating the value of sparring.


\
Of course you do... An no I'm not....  I heard this and had this thrown in my face tons @ my current dojo.  The assistant head instructor (3rd degree black-belt)  who was the loudest in ridicule of me (agreeing with your proposition), now refuses to free spar with me.  And he can handle the MMA type kickboxer students pretty handily....  He knows I can take him apart....
\
From your perspective.... I wouldn't recommend you do anything other than what you are doing...  That's where your martial understanding lies...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> \
> Ok, but I don't see the connection to CMA proper...  As far as boxing (kickboxing) science goes, every point you put forth makes sense to me....  Especially the "Angle-Out & Round Kick...." tactic against the jab...
> \
> Couple of interesting points on the YT vid above....
> ...


I showed the video of the MMA fighters falling short with one of the upper blocks in the video.  I originally thought that I didn't try an upper block before and then I remembered why I didn't try the upper block.  Tomorrow is sparring day so I can demo some scenarios and follow up where possible.  I was hoping the 6'3" student would spar tonight but he injured his shoulder some how.  I've slipped jabs before like the MMA fighters are showing but it doesn't work that way for us.

In Jow Ga we don't try to react faster, we try to react before an action is taken.  For example when we parry a jab, we don't parry it because we see it coming, we automatically parry as part of the moment regardless of if we think a jab is coming or not.  The problem that I have with move is that I can't get deep enough inside the reach to be effect with a punch.  I actually have video of that so you can see how I was coming up short.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 4, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I showed the video of the MMA fighters falling short with one of the upper blocks in the video.  I originally thought that I didn't try an upper block before and then I remembered why I didn't try the upper block.  Tomorrow is sparring day so I can demo some scenarios and follow up where possible.  I was hoping the 6'3" student would spar tonight but he injured his shoulder some how.  I've slipped jabs before like the MMA fighters are showing but it doesn't work that way for us.


\
I'll take a look....  I made the point repeatedly that it is *mental discipline* that make the kihon or any karate or TMA "work."  "No mental discipline, no karate blocky work..."
\
I have no doubt evasion is a cornerstone of your game.... I use it too, but most often it's not needed...for me....



JowGaWolf said:


> IIn Jow Ga we don't try to react faster, we try to react before an action is taken.


\
That is the more sophisticated mental discipline overall striking tactic of traditional karate as well....  but it requires much greater mental discipline & mental effort....  Waiting for your opponent to make the 1st move is the most efficient use of mental discipline; and that is what, surprisingly enough, is presented in your "Short vs. Tall" YT Vid. re against longer reach.


JowGaWolf said:


> For example when we parry a jab, we don't parry it because we see it coming, we automatically parry as part of the moment regardless of if we think a jab is coming or not.


\
Yeah, you and K-Man on exactly the same plane.... with that.... Not the mental discipline I do at all..  Everything I do is precisely targeted against the opponent's actual movement / technique.  Mental discipline has to be spot on.


JowGaWolf said:


> The problem that I have with move is that I can't get deep enough inside the reach to be effect with a punch.  I actually have video of that so you can see how I was coming up short.


\
Right, precisely the problem for the boxing, sport-fighting mindset.  If I have to chase someone the length of the dojo, I will.  I've had opponents backed into a corner of the dojo, cowering....  In short, the footwork of boxing, etc. is too 1-dimensional to advance on effectively on the elusive opponent.... it's more designed for competitors trading fisticuffs, with that understanding....
\
HERE'S A CLIP OF THE CONVENTIONAL SPORT KARATE MODEL FOR CLOSING THE DISTANCE.... I PUT UP EARLIER TATSUYA NAGA DOING A MORE TRADITIONAL MEANS....RE SHOTOKAN KARATE KUMITE....




\
Now, I don't bop & spring up & down like these karateka.... this is a karate kumite convention that compensates for Shotokan's typical use of wide stances,and now has become sport karate convention quite across the board...
\
The point is not the springing & bouncing per se.... it's the larger, overall tactical principle of how to execute mobility very quickly to cover distance & close on the opponent [see A]....  the traditional model moves very quickly by transitioning between stances, like the Taikyoku kata vid I put up....
\
I don't look @ it as "closing the distance."  This is a sport-fighting mindset, IMO.  What I do is "close on the target..."  It's entering striking range.  It's approaching the target... key word: TARGET.  I want, tactically, to be in position to strike the target..... how do I do that....  traveling in stances.... kihon karate basics.... that's what stances are for...  Takes Mental Discipline.....  otherwise, do Jai Harman type stuff...not WC, let alone TMA.
\
Note [A]: ...and deliver full body power....
\\
EDIT#1: These guys & gals are very agile, very speedy & precise strikers.... also notice how they use a non-hands up guard.... also notice they don't know how to block....  they move around.....  some good lessons in this sport karate model..... but it is a limited subset of what mentally disciplined driven karate can do....
EDIT:#2: This is a model that can best a strong hitter like Ronda Rousey.....  because they are fast, very accurate, and highly mobile....  And not what Holly Holm is training....
\
EDIT#3: the problem with this karate kumite model is that it's all rapid mobility, landing speedy strikes....  There is not ANY active defense & tactical changes are quite restricted.... basically super-speeded up kihon techniques...
\
EDIT#4: In the instruction part near the end of the vid... the instructor says that the key part of the kumite is to work on "timing."  That is wrong.  Timing is the result of some internal action on your part.... pure luck... guessing right.... fast reactions, instincts... or where TMA takes it KIME arising from overall highly-disciplined mental strength....  it's not timing per se.... it's mentally what I described above....
\
So the best we can hope for based on the instructional demo YT vid  we have here, is the sporting ability of "fast reactions."  Which is legit sport karate....
\
EDIT#5; See the MMA audience spectators stumbling trying mimic the lesson...


----------



## drop bear (Nov 4, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> . The problem that I have with move is that I can't get deep enough inside the reach to be effect with a punch. I actually have video of that so you can see how I was coming up short.



Cross step


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 4, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> \
> In Jow Ga we don't try to react faster, we try to react before an action is taken.  For example when we parry a jab, we don't parry it because we see it coming, we automatically parry as part of the moment regardless of if we think a jab is coming or not.  The problem that I have with move is that I can't get deep enough inside the reach to be effect with a punch.  I actually have video of that so you can see how I was coming up short.


\
When I act, it's @ a defined target.... targeting NOT anticipating/ guessing....  So in the "Short vs. Tall" YT vid on adjusting for the longer reach.... short guys moves his [i just smashed him in his face]; OR, short guys moves his head and I smash it where he moved it too....  I don't throw punches at a heavy bag.... I mentally strike where the target is RIGHT NOW!!!!!  And that is too dynamic to move out of the way off....
\
Of course it takes maturity & long periods of mental training to actually do this....  in olden TMA times originally called "forms," LATER "kata."  Starts day 1 with "air punching kihon."


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 4, 2015)

Kihon karate fail....UPPER BLOCK JOKE TRAINING....




I'm sure the self-defence members here use this in their marketing presentations...
\
Just going to a class where they show some physical kihon karate moves..... it's never GONNA work 'cause there is no mental discipline developed.... total misapplication of TMA theory....
\
Zero mental discipline = massive fail.... Also, these girls have the physical base sufficient to beat up their 5-year old brother....
\
Good luck with guys pounding this into on another in full contact,, ,, the alpha-male version of this girly "feel good" exercise....


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2015)

Shotonoob
I'll get some better pictures and maybe video of me kicking the pads tomorrow during sparring class to help make it easier to visualize what I'm talking about.



ShotoNoob said:


> Good luck with reading attacks as a sport fighter


This is an example of my ability to read an attack before the attack happens.  These are screen shots from a video of me sparring with a beginner from another fighting system. The process of reading an attack and countering it before the attack happens is the same regardless of the skill level of my opponent.
Background information:  Both of these sparring matches were ultra light sparring.
1. Both cases pictures are of him attacking me.
2. Both cases I knew what punch he was going to punch
3. Both cases I intentionally leave my stomach wide open (it only appears that way)
4. #3 made it possible for me to know #2
5. I watch for intent and react to intent.  Intent comes before action.  If I react to the intent of him hitting me in the stomach then I can actually counter the attack before it even occurs.

How do I prove that I'm reacting to intent?  Notice that I lift my foot before he actually throws the punch.







How do I prove that I knew what attack he would do? See pictures below
The left picture I knew his jab would be high which would leave the space under his arm open. "This is me fighting where my opponent isn't"  His lead hand is no longer occupying the same space as it did before he threw the punch. The kick lands on his ribs

The right picture is just a soft round house tap. The attack that he use was a bait that would have allowed him grab my leg, so instead of kicking to the center I kicked to the outside landing the kick on his triceps leaving him with nothing to grab.  






Here's a video of the same concept explained above against a more skilled fighter, the same guy that made me frustrated with trying to close the gap by without using my legs/feet.  At 0:13 I already know what punch he's going to throw and where my opening will be long before he actually punches.  The kick in the video looks like it's a fast kick but it's not.  It only looks fast because I had already started kicking long before he threw the punch.  The kick was actually slow compared to some of my other kicks. It takes less than a second to kick.  This one took a little over a second from the time I started the kick to when my foot came down.  Again I started my counter before he started his attack.

Note: This is free sparring to work on technique. He was working on his combos.  I was working on my reaction time.  Punches hitting the face or the head weren't allowed because we didn't have head protection or a mouth piece.






It takes a while to learn how to sense intent. I'm still learning as I'm not able to pick it up right a way.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Cross step


Thanks.  I haven't tried that one either.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 5, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Shotonoob
> I'll get some better pictures and maybe video of me kicking the pads tomorrow during sparring class to help make it easier to visualize what I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> ...


\
Essentially the theory of 1-step sparring... except for depending on your fore-knowledge or foresight, how you call it...
\
Perfect tactical execution on your part.... great training illustration...


JowGaWolf said:


> Here's a video of the same concept explained above against a more skilled fighter, the same guy that made me frustrated with trying to close the gap by without using my legs/feet.  At 0:13 I already know what punch he's going to throw and where my opening will be long before he actually punches.  The kick in the video looks like it's a fast kick but it's not.  It only looks fast because I had already started kicking long before he threw the punch.  The kick was actually slow compared to some of my other kicks. It takes less than a second to kick.  This one took a little over a second from the time I started the kick to when my foot came down.  Again I started my counter before he started his attack.
> 
> Note: This is free sparring to work on technique. He was working on his combos.  I was working on my reaction time.  Punches hitting the face or the head weren't allowed because we didn't have head protection or a mouth piece.







\
That was excellent execution.... Although to be technical.... an opponent tactically clever enough to catch you leg as suggested in video 1, might have grabbed the straight kick in this example....  he was following boxing convention, IMO...
\
Any how, by the appearance, ya times it perfectly.... He really set himself up by attempting  to close from outside kicking range & you nailed him on his follow-up entry... NICE.
\
He's focused on boxing hands.... and so his guard is set on that also....
\


JowGaWolf said:


> It takes a while to learn how to sense intent. I'm still learning as I'm not able to pick it up right a way.


\
Your illustrations highlight, _in principle_, how my karate outfights boxers...  I really don't use my kicks 'cause hands are so superior for me...  Kicks are more an accessory for me....
\
You back up constantly... and depend on a lot of parries and passive arm guarding blocks akin to good, defensive boxers...  I  don't back up, I usually move ahead in one way on another.  I apply active kihon or applied karate blocks (including parries); then counter or just strike (in effect) ahead of the opponent.
\
Of course, karate is not a guarantee & taking a boxer like the one in the 'skilled' vid lightly... is pure folly.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 5, 2015)

IF YOU WERE SPARRING ME, HERE'S AN INDICATION OF WHAT I WOULD DO (DIFFERENT):


JowGaWolf said:


> Shotonoob
> I'll get some better pictures and maybe video of me kicking the pads tomorrow during sparring class to help make it easier to visualize what I'm talking about.
> 
> 
> ...


\
First of all, your opponent is hanging outside of striking range.   He then springs / lunges forward like BAD sport karate... Machida himself is highly guilty of this and sometimes with disastrous results...  I never look like that....
\
Second of all, youR stomach is open... he's just too bungEly to capitalize on the opening, or your blocking is too good: Or BOTH....\
\
Traditional 1-step sparring does not fixate on superficial openings... only actual ones....
\
Honestly, I don't see from the vid how you knew that.... thought it's logical....  I also don't see why he couldn't have rocketed ahead with a reverse punch to the 'open' stomach.  But let's agree you saw the jab coming...
\


JowGaWolf said:


> The left picture I knew his jab would be high which would leave the space under his arm open. "This is me fighting where my opponent isn't"  His lead hand is no longer occupying the same space as it did before he threw the punch. The kick lands on his ribs
> 
> The right picture is just a soft round house tap. The attack that he use was a bait that would have allowed him grab my leg, so instead of kicking to the center I kicked to the outside landing the kick on his triceps leaving him with nothing to grab.


\
Here's what I would have done...
\
FIRST:  I could have cared less about grabbing your leg...  that's too much commitment under one-step principles...

SECOND:  as you raise to kick, I would step-in right inside the kick, you are now open on several planes...  From there there are a number of hand strikes, some with block first to your right-SIDE attacking limbs.... the simplest would be my right straight punch into your face through your single guarding left....  Since you are actually committing your left hand to block the 'non-open' stomach... it's would be useless to my face punch...  This would be the kenpo law case of straight (my straight right punch) beats circle (your round kick to my ribs [where they were]).
\
Here's the 1-step principe... very basic, applied beginner karate form....
\
Before I do that though, based on your presumptions about sparring in martial training.... I would say you are doing & training exactly to your stated principles...IMHO...




\
Now performing this one-step the way your boxer brother does his boxing won't work because he has already pre-programmed his gambit in advance...
\
The one-step works when it is directed by high-level mental discipline, powered by KIME.  When you move (round kick to ribs); I move re 1-step (strike to the head).  Unlike your applied free sparring approach, you wouldn't really learn a thing from sparring with me other that my level of mental discipline is higher than that of boxing brothers, and greater than yours too (hopefully in my mind).


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 5, 2015)

Here's the Perfect Weapon Movie Trailer...
\
The effect I want to illustrate is when Speakman is fighting the Spider Arm Tatoo'd "tong" member in the shop.... That's the outcome of 1-step kumite done to standards
\
TIME:0:36




\
The actual exchange uncut is in the 1st Speakman YT vid I posted.  And I don't really use spinning backfists.... just head on strikes... including the backfist once in a while....\
\
The opening gambit by Speakman against the street thugs is also very similar to the karate form I execute.... really standard, targeted strikes.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> an opponent tactically clever enough to catch you leg as suggested in video 1, might have grabbed the straight kick in this example.... he was following boxing convention, IMO...


 Correct on the analysis.



ShotoNoob said:


> You back up constantly


Am I backing up or am I analyzing my opponent's movement?


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 5, 2015)

HERE'S TWO TANG SOO DO CLIPS FROM A TRADITIONALLY BASED FIGHTER....
\
Tom Bloom "Traditional Kata"... looks like a stylized Heian series kata...




\
Guy's very athletic, way more than me... and I don't practice kata like this (a no, no).  But here you can see speed & power with both poise & precision...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 5, 2015)

NOW HERE IS TOM BLOOM IN FULL CONTACT COMPETITON:
\
His opponent(s) is/are more typical of sport karate convention, a lot of poorly disciplined tactics...  Tom uses a side stance which is more common of Okinawan karate styles...
\




Tom does not back up. Tom does not throw a technique and hope to score... Tom exchanges & finishes...
\
The 2nd losing opponent is like the boxer with mobility, this stupid bouncing around in readiness the way even Machida has been seen to do...  the clever, flashy reactions that have totallly zero mentally directed discipline.... and how does all that athletics work out...?


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 5, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Correct on the analysis.


\
Your kick was perfect, so his catch would have to have been ever perfecterrrrrrr.



JowGaWolf said:


> Am I backing up or am I analyzing my opponent's movement?


\
OK, you forced me to give you credit.... BOTH.  aND BY YOUR TRAINING philosophy exactly correct on both counts....
|
EDIT: My global answer.... Perfect Weapon Trailer Time 0:36.  That's a me...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 5, 2015)

Additional Edit to my EDIT @ Post #39.... why dojo 3rd degree black-belt assistant head instructor refuses my invitation to spar....
\
Edit: even though I'm kinda a laszlo kind of guy




\
No heavy bag for me & laszlo... break a da der board; break a der face....


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Second of all, youR stomach is open... he's just too bungEly to capitalize on the opening, or your blocking is too good: Or BOTH....\


 I intentionally leave my stomach open, for the purpose of drawing the attack there. If you look at most of my videos you'll see that my stomach is open. When it's open I know someone like you will want to go for it. So I leave it open to draw the attack there.



ShotoNoob said:


> Honestly, I don't see from the vid how you knew that.... thought it's logical.... I also don't see why he couldn't have rocketed ahead with a reverse punch to the 'open' stomach. But let's agree you saw the jab coming...


 For me it doesn't take long to analyze my opponents movement.  When sparring, people will fight with their strong points and will repeat the use of it.  So I stay back just far enough for them to come after me with "the good stuff." It usually takes me 2 to 3 attacks to start getting a feel of how my opponent moves. My second understanding comes when my mind starts to recognize from the body position and movement of the body of what strike will come next. I don't need to address all of the movement, I just need identify one attack and to wait for the pattern to repeat itself. My brain picks up this movement and it's like I'm seeing what attack comes next.  It's difficult to explain. The best that I can sum it up is that I'm sensing these movement and not actually sitting there thinking and waiting.  My eyes see, my brain understands, my body takes action.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 5, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I intentionally leave my stomach open, for the purpose of drawing the attack there. If you look at most of my videos you'll see that my stomach is open. When it's open I know someone like you will want to go for it. So I leave it open to draw the attack there.


\
Opps, nice try Ja Gow but if you read my TLDR treatises closely... what you state precisely doesn't apply to me...  It's boxing brother & Jai Harman who are mentally 1-dimensional that go for your baits & feints. Right answer to wrong test question.... my friend...


JowGaWolf said:


> For me it doesn't take long to analyze my opponents movement.  When sparring, people will fight with their strong points and will repeat the use of it.  So I stay back just far enough for them to come after me with "the good stuff." It usually takes me 2 to 3 attacks to start getting a feel of how my opponent moves.


\
I destroy Jai Harman like guys right out of the box....


JowGaWolf said:


> My second understanding comes when my mind starts to recognize from the body position and movement of the body of what strike will come next. I don't need to address all of the movement, I just need identify one attack and to wait for the pattern to repeat itself. My brain picks up this movement and it's like I'm seeing what attack comes next.  It's difficult to explain. The best that I can sum it up is that I'm sensing these movement and not actually sitting there thinking and waiting.  My eyes see, my brain understands, my body takes action.


\
You are developing mental discipline.  The difference between you and me is that you are doing off of applying specific tactics specific to the actions of your opponents.
\
I'm applying general principles to specifically address whatever my (general) opponent does specifically.  How's that for double talk???
\
Anyway, I sense (no pun intended) that you have adapted free sparring to the development of what Shotokan refers to as "sen," or "initiative," which is a mental process arising from overall mental discipline....  I am sure many many free sparring TMA practitioners are doing exactly the same thing....or trying to.... I do this starting with kihon.... then kata, then 1-step kumite, then kata... etc, etc...
\
You way would be the more conventional approach that TMA schools hold free sparring... and one of my YT vids ( the one with Conor McGregor) the karate instructor pretty much quotes this...  HOwever, strictly speaking by TMA theory, this is wrong by total perspective....


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> This would be the kenpo law case of straight (my straight right punch) beats circle (your round kick to my ribs [where they were]).


  It was a heel kick to the ribs.



ShotoNoob said:


> Unlike your applied free sparring approach, you wouldn't really learn a thing from sparring with me other that my level of mental discipline is higher than that of boxing brothers, and greater than yours too (hopefully in my mind


  I always learn something from sparring. 



ShotoNoob said:


> Your kick was perfect, so his catch would have to have been ever perfecterrrrrrr


  There was no way he could have caught that kick. You can't go by the picture, you have to go by the video.  The picture just shows that I started my action to kick him before he started his action to punch.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 6, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> It was a heel kick to the ribs.


\
ok... my kumite response is relevant...



JowGaWolf said:


> I always learn something from sparring.


\
Yes you do.  Yes I do too, but much less than you....


JowGaWolf said:


> There was no way he could have caught that kick. You can't go by the picture, you have to go by the video.  The picture just shows that I started my action to kick him before he started his action to punch.


\
I'm not sure which kick you are talking about... it's probably the silly way I responded.  I agreed your straight kick was dead on.... and it would only be an outside chance the opponent could catch the straight kick.... very outside...  So I was affirming your approach & result.
\
The heel kick was also tactically proper & accurate against your opponent... It wouldn't work (problably) against me 'cause I would readjust as I said upon that kick.  Your straight kick could have caught me if I wasn't focused....  that straight kick of yours was excellent.  Unlike boxing brother... my movements are subject to adjustment according to circumstances.... my 1-step kumite is a broad & diverse set of principles... not a bag of pre-programmed tricks....
\
Any how, I applaud your videos as fine examples of your training methods and of the sought for results against undisciplined, yet athletically challenging opponents....  The skills you are developing will outmaneuver them....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 6, 2015)

@Ja Gow... what's your take on this kung fu style?  How about the approach to free sparring?




\
My first response was that they cut & pasted sport competition onto a venerable old CMA style...


----------



## wiz cool c (Nov 6, 2015)

You know the expression never box a boxer or wrestle a wrestler. This guy has a big reach advantage over you and is using primarily his hands, I would use defensive low kick every time he comes into your range


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> @Ja Gow... what's your take on this kung fu style?  How about the approach to free sparring?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched 6 seconds of it and I'm going to say it's awful just from that combo lol. I'll go back and watch it again. To see if they actually did any real kung fu technique that goes beyond the 6 seconds I saw.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> @Ja Gow... what's your take on this kung fu style?  How about the approach to free sparring?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well my initial reaction was correct.  It's a bunch of trash and doesn't show any ability to use the techniques that they are said to be studying.  Kung fu sparring  should use techniques that are from the form training.  I think this way about all martial arts systems.  What's the point of practicing techniques if they are only going to do basic kicks and punches.  I know it was only just a demo free sparring, but that's when it's the easiest to demonstrate a technique during free sparring.  Since it was demo of free sparring they could have left the gloves off.

I never heard of fu jow pai so I looked online for one of their forms.  I don't know what style the sparring guys were doing because they weren't doing any kung fu.
If they were fu jow pai then some of what this guy is doing should be recognizable when they spar.





This is what it should have looked like.  Not the same style of kung fu but it's clear to see who was using kung fu techniques and who wasn't.  The only thing I didn't like about this one was that they weren't throwing jabs, crosses and hooks at each other, which is what they will have to deal with in a real fight situation or even a continuous sparring situation.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> @Ja Gow... what's your take on this kung fu style?  How about the approach to free sparring?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is bad sparring for learning kung fu.  This the exact reason why my kung fu sparring partner looks like a boxer


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> You know the expression never box a boxer or wrestle a wrestler. This guy has a big reach advantage over you and is using primarily his hands, I would use defensive low kick every time he comes into your range


I agree. never box a boxer or wrestle a wrestler.  I don't box and I don't wrestle so I don't need to play in their "sandbox of strengths"


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 7, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I watched 6 seconds of it and I'm going to say it's awful just from that combo lol. I'll go back and watch it again. To see if they actually did any real kung fu technique that goes beyond the 6 seconds I saw.


\
Well Ja, I'm not as not as negative as you.  Free sparring is a relatively modern paste on to TMA.  So the Master added same.
\
There are some aspects of his form that contradict what he teaches....  OTOH... he makes you look 'bad' in other ways...
\
Not trying to be personal with you.... just jog your thinking.... and again, the sparring  presentations on sparring technique & tactics + mental dimension = depict precisely your approach and how it garners results.... so again kudos for your instructional presentation... top shelf....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 7, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is bad sparring for learning kung fu.  This the exact reason why my kung fu sparring partner looks like a boxer


\
No he (boxing brother) looks like a boxer because he was a boxer.... There are some differences between the Fu Jaw Pi Master sparring and your boxer.... I'll  look later... have to go...
\
I agree on balance with the conclusion in your 1st sentence... .and again another reason I avoid free sparring, particularly the conventional-like sport models we largely see here....
\
Still, to my eye, there is / are great lessons in how the Fu Jow Pai Master spars here....  in principle especially...
\
EDIT: IMO, your free sparring regimen is the correct approach re TMA principles...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 7, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Well my initial reaction was correct.  It's a bunch of trash and doesn't show any ability to use the techniques that they are said to be studying.


\
Nice lay out in your reply.... don't have time now.  My initial reaction is that the Master is trying to include sparring because this is the modern convention....  and do it in a way that keeps it sporting & attainable to the majority of students.... So I'm ok personally with him running his program that way.
\


JowGaWolf said:


> Kung fu sparring  should use techniques that are from the form training.


\
Ideally yes.   Yet boxing brother & your other opponent are doing the exact same boxing type style you criticize the Fu Jow Pai demo of doing....  again why I de-emphasize free sparring... while I am outvoted by both you & by the Fu Jow Pai Master....  poor Shotonoob....


JowGaWolf said:


> I think this way about all martial arts systems.  What's the point of practicing techniques if they are only going to do basic kicks and punches.


\
right on... and kickboxing / like for the most part.


JowGaWolf said:


> I know it was only just a demo free sparring, but that's when it's the easiest to demonstrate a technique during free sparring.  Since it was demo of free sparring they could have left the gloves off.


\
yeah, I gave insight like yours above... And I eschew gloves.... but safety-wise, it's legit to override especially since across-the-board, the modern convention is to begin sparring day 1.  The participants have no mental discipline... even lack physical knowledge of what to, re Jai Harman's first opponent was it.... ugly-poor or poor-ugly....


JowGaWolf said:


> I never heard of fu jow pai so I looked online for one of their forms.  I don't know what style the sparring guys were doing because they weren't doing any kung fu.


\
Yeah, in form came across as kickboxing.... yet far better TMA than Jai Harman's non-WC MMA vids....  that was really no-TMA whatsoever on any principles level [on kickboxing level--Jai Harman pretty decent & I applaud his work there.]....  I give the Fu Jow Pai master credit for TMA principle here...


JowGaWolf said:


> If they were fu jow pai then some of what this guy is doing should be recognizable when they spar.


\
Have to go like I said... So you are doing the great service of keeping Kung fu true to standards.... where the Fu Jow Pai master has departed from standards in the demo....
\
Will continue later...
\
ADD: This is a TIGER style of kung fu... but not a narrow, rigid TIGER-based style like Shotokan karate.  In any event, the style is so demanding that IMO without watering-it-down, so to speak, he probably would attract a less than-commercially viable number of students...
\
Tnx for substantial reply....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 7, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree. never box a boxer or wrestle a wrestler.  I don't box and I don't wrestle so I don't need to play in their "sandbox of strengths"


\
Traditional karate is way better than boxing or wrestling... so why go down the ladder is one is interested in TMA?
\
Here's an interview with the Fu Jow pai Master in the sparring demo




\
I don't know how 'Mastery' the man is.... but I wouldn't hesitate to take lessons from him////
\
I do know this... the man has worked his 'a*s off to accomplish the curriculum.... and that shows "bucco" in his free sparring demo video.... if you understand mental discipline the way I look @ it....
\
key postnote:  Compared to the karates.... this TIGER style is off the charts in difficulty & sophistication.... and the specialized style of true CMA, WC Jai Harman claims to train... even more difficult than Fu Jow Pai....  so Jai & Co. .... good luck with that...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> I don't know how 'Mastery' the man is.... but I wouldn't hesitate to take lessons from him


 The training is the selling point for me.  He's correct about the tiger techniques. Gotta have strong fingers, hands, and grip strength.  There are some techniques that I know that I would never do in a real fight because my hands aren't conditioned enough to do it without hurting myself.

almost all tiger techniques are useless for me because I don't have the conditioning to that's required. 
If a person can't do these types of push ups then they won't be able to do much with tiger without hurting themselves.  the conditioning alone is uncomfortable.  I can do everything but the finger push us (notice how his hand is in tiger claw when he's doing them) and the flipping from back to front on the wrists.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 7, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> The training is the selling point for me.  He's correct about the tiger techniques. Gotta have strong fingers, hands, and grip strength.  There are some techniques that I know that I would never do in a real fight because my hands aren't conditioned enough to do it without hurting myself.


\
The hand conditioning is only one of the problematic aspects of actually taking CMA / Tiger Claw to the practical stage...  It is quite possible to strengthen ones hands so that the grips used in Tiger Claw or for anything grappling become stronger...



JowGaWolf said:


> almost all tiger techniques are useless for me because I don't have the conditioning to that's required.


\
Hence the wisdom of Gichin Funakoshi in simplifying the TMA techniques for the vast majority....


JowGaWolf said:


> If a person can't do these types of push ups then they won't be able to do much with tiger without hurting themselves.  the conditioning alone is uncomfortable.  I can do everything but the finger push us (notice how his hand is in tiger claw when he's doing them) and the flipping from back to front on the wrists.
> [edit video]


\
Well there you go.... very good.  I always found this type of conditioning problematic as well ... and a huge & experimental time sink...  But it can yield benefits....   The simplified karate version (and witnessed done @ CMA schools is knuckle push-ups.... re closed fist strength....  all karate-conditioning push ups should be closed fist, IMO>..  and ditch all gloves....
\
EDIT: there are some applications self-defense wise that one can use a Tiger claw, the effect of a distraction or against softer tissues...without highly specialized conditioning...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 7, 2015)

HERE'S MY BLOW-BY-BLOW REVIEW OF YOUR PERSPECTIVE:


JowGaWolf said:


> 1.Well my initial reaction was correct.
> 2. It's a bunch of trash and doesn't show any ability to use the techniques that they are said to be studying.
> 3. Kung fu sparring  should use techniques that are from the form training.
> 4. I think this way about all martial arts systems.


\
1. Not completely. The Fu Jow Pai Master exhibits a lot of mind / body unity in his movement.... hence mental disciple which is also apparent in how he tactically applies his techniques...  On  the technical front... he makes very good use of traditional stances, something relatively rare in competition sparring....
|
2. Agreed on the kickboxing type technique.  But  there's gold (or at least kung fu silver) beneath the trash, see reply #1.  He also does a lot of head movement & body lean not unlike you tactically... and which I do little of....  I fight more like the traditional curriculum.... upright & directed mentally...
|
3. Again, completely agree by traditional standards...  People think there is some disconnect between traditional techniques and the sport-kickboxing in that somehow sport kickboxing is what TMA is supposed to be training....  I never got that other than ignorance on the part of all those acting so...


JowGaWolf said:


> What's the point of practicing techniques if they are only going to do basic kicks and punches.  I know it was only just a demo free sparring, but that's when it's the easiest to demonstrate a technique during free sparring.  Since it was demo of free sparring they could have left the gloves off.


\
By traditional CMA standards, you are dumping CMA and morphing into Jai Harman-type competitor...  Again, completely stupid to me... yet I've been criticized tons here for being steadfast...  Again, people seems to buy that doing some TMA stuff somehow magically turns them into a super kickboxer-fighter....  silly really.... but emotionally bought by most of sport karateka....


JowGaWolf said:


> I never heard of fu jow pai so I looked online for one of their forms.  I don't know what style the sparring guys were doing because they weren't doing any kung fu. If they were fu jow pai then some of what this guy is doing should be recognizable when they spar.


\
Well, it's the Fu Jow Pai Master's version of what he wants to demonstrate...  There is a Fu Jow Pai base in what he is doing, IMO... but the actual physical techniques are kickboxing....to me.


JowGaWolf said:


> Ja Gow's illustration of Fu Jow Pai Tiger Form YT VID


\
When i put up a vid like this, the MT heavies all pile on me...  Some have said this is garbage, impractical, etc., etc.  My view is that this kind of actual fighting is too complicated for most TMA practitioners....  It's very sophisticated to acquire the mental discipline to effect such against real life opponents....  Since my mental discipline principles have been so roundly criticized, I again think the actuall effectiveness for my critics in the use of such CMA techniques is quite limited...
\


JowGaWolf said:


> Ja Gow's illustration of Fu Jow Pai Frees sparring YT VID


\
Of course what they are practicing is bona fide.... it's acquiring the physical & mental base sufficient to really be strong & dynamic that is, like your Tiger Claw conditioning, problematic, highly problematic...


JowGaWolf said:


> This is what it should have looked like.  Not the same style of kung fu but it's clear to see who was using kung fu techniques and who wasn't.  The only thing I didn't like about this one was that they weren't throwing jabs, crosses and hooks at each other, which is what they will have to deal with in a real fight situation or even a continuous sparring situation.


\
Again, I agree with you in principle... And your point about training against boxing-type techniques is of course on point.... for reality testing, self defense, etc...
\
Like many of most of my critics, though, you tend to be technique-centric....  If one masters (for practical purposes) the TMA (here CMA) principles... adjustments to other styles of fighting are much more readily accomplished.... This is the key of mental discipline.... I don't continually train against boxing style like you demonstrate.... yet I have never lost to a boxer......  I believe I know a number of kung fu stylists, though,  who I really can't match.  And it really has to do with a superior TMA base (or higher experience), not the actual techniques... though those are a strong factor when the CMA base is strong also...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 7, 2015)

HERE'S MY SUMMARY, LOOKING @ WHAT THE Fu Jow Pai Master does WELLl...


JowGaWolf said:


> This is bad sparring for learning kung fu.  This the exact reason why my kung fu sparring partner looks like a boxer





ShotoNoob said:


> @Ja Gow... what's your take on this kung fu style?  How about the approach to free sparring?






\
1. Despite the kickboxing technique, his physical movments are quick, accurate and employ his whole body...
\
2. He utilizes traditional stances & transitions smoothly and well....
\
3. He (unlike you) engages and advances on his opponent right off the bat... and continuously attacks...
\
4. He actually has some striking defense, though the exaggerated head & body contortions aren't TMA standards...
\
5. His combos (he uses combos) have tactical integrity...
\
6. He doesn't rely on creating large distances and all that hyper moving all over footwork and random herky jerky stuff we see in boxing, MMA or sport karate....  He shows that competent traditional mobility from stances is superior in effective exchanges...
\
7. He doesn't do the typical sport karate stand & wait & duel like tactic of trying to 'time' the perfect speed shot hence flying in over-committed.... he can fight with versatility.
\
8. His movements are relaxed, yet explode fast & smooth.... conveying serious potential power absent a lot of the karate tense muscular action or boxing or Muay Thai heavy body mechanics...  I would rate his striking of dynamic quality... that is when striking really works....
\
NOT GARBAGE @ ALL, IN MY BOOK...  Jai Harman & his Muay Thai-Kickboxing-"WC" against this.. "rots of ruck..."
\
EDIT: He's better than me @ sparring (TMA period)....
\
EDIT #9: Like me, he is unfazed by feints.... or should I say I'm like him; I'm not fazed by feints...  takes excellent mental discipline...


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 8, 2015)

I love these 1-steps.  Here's one Ronda Rousey could be training with. Or, better yet, Holly Holm once her technical boxing fails on Ronda this coming weekend...  The female instructor is German, Germans can be very disciplined fighters...




\
Notice with all the stripes on her belt, she still has trouble with balance on the round kicks.... kicks above the waist are difficult for a large portion of the population, including me... even we see Jeff Speakman struggling....  She does 3 kicks, the last a hook... very challenging...
\
Now I can criticize the selection & structure of 1-step techniques... just like all the die-hard SD instructors here @ MT.  But that is not the point of the 1-step exercise....
\
The point to me is mental discipline.  When she slows down and talks you through the exercise... that is where the proverbial TMA "light bulb" should come on...  She's presenting a host of traditional karate principles (not the least of which is KIME), not that "My opponent comes @ me and stands like a statute with his arm fixed in a punch..."  "Then, I do this fancy guard-technique-triple kick spin & return....."
\
Now Ja Gow.. take the Fu Jow Pai free sparring --- IMO the mental discipline demands of training that are 100x this....  So training that way is just too demanding from my perspective & it's overwhelming mentally, by my book.  You believe in that approach... and you demonstrate it working for you....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 8, 2015)

SHE' ALSO A KICK BOXER:




\
People take up TMA for sporting reasons.... for recreation, they want to have fun....  So they do kickboxing.  I myself would never fight like this....
\
Incidentally the male counterpart has a very strong natural physique & mindset  for fighting.... watch out for him if he is your opponent...
\
NOTE: She abandons her traditional karate guard (rear hand was held too high according to what I was always taught), for this kickboxing cover-up guard.  WHY?  I have the same question as you... why take karate and use a karate guard in karate class... then leave class for kickboxing school and the karate guard vanishes....????
\
Now traditional karate 1-steps have a specific answer, under general TMA principles to defeat this gambit... A time of maximum vulnerability is TIME 1:46, for example; that is when I would block & counter... you only have a split-karate second...
\
Any how, this explains the dramatic cultural moves we see to kickboxing form since that form is so popularized and so well embraced.... including among TMA practitioners....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 8, 2015)

The Fu Jow Pai style is an excellent TMA style... If one can shoulder the extremely high demands true to CMA standards.... it's far, far, far above any of the karate's....  IMO.
\
If one can't get out of the box in understanding, let alone application with the 'simplistic' traditional karate 1-steps.... how does one expect to become truly proficient in the ultra-intense & complicated Fu Jow Pai?  That's my closing CMA-Sparring question>
\
Good luck with that....


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 8, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> HERE'S MY SUMMARY, LOOKING @ WHAT THE Fu Jow Pai Master does WELLl...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





9: Like me, he is unfazed by feints.... or should I say I'm like him; I'm not fazed by feints...  takes excellent mental discipline
He falls for the feint  at 0:20 from a kick. at 0:43 from kick


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 8, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> 9: Like me, he is unfazed by feints.... or should I say I'm like him; I'm not fazed by feints...  takes excellent mental discipline
> He falls for the feint  at 0:20 from a kick. at 0:43 from kick


\
I don't see it.  @TIME 0:43, what I don't like is his more passive guard yet I have seen this taught by CMA instructor against Round house kick...
\
I do see him make that head movement & body lean / contortion... does a kind of covering guard....that is not what I do as matter of course....  My point is that he does not over-react (and I'll post below on what i mean).... he stands his ground and then goes on the offensive quite nicely...
\
Again, the kickboxing video I posted shows karate practitioners doing this for friendly, sporting convention when sparring....  again, not what i advocate....
\
@TIME 0:20, He again uses a cover up guard against a kick which thuds into him...   /???


----------



## ShotoNoob (Nov 8, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> 9: Like me, he is unfazed by feints.... or should I say I'm like him; I'm not fazed by feints...  takes excellent mental discipline
> He falls for the feint  at 0:20 from a kick. at 0:43 from kick


\
Here's a / the Jai Harman YT vid of the kickboxing.  I read up on some of the commentary about Jai.  He aspires to the MMA model, not the UFC commercialized version, the mulit-cross-training version.  So that is where his background as a WC stylist comes from... not a dedicatedCMA artist....




\
The boxer nails him at the end with a 'liver' shot, or maybe a solar plexis hit... when he has Jai backed into the corner....  As the comment indicated, Jai is fighting round robin, this is #3 -- against a fresh opponent.
\
Very evident in this competition sparring video, both opponents are slack on defense.... backing away, covering up the face to stop attacks....
\
Jai appears to me to be in very good shape and has a good physique & is well trained... not so true of his earlier opponents.  Here, the boxer's slate of abilities evens the score.....
\
Bottom line: Fu Jow Pai Master takes on the opponent rather than rely on the sport-fighting evasion tactics.... as well as other qualities....


----------

