# Israeli Soldiers attacked by "relief" ship



## Grenadier (Jun 3, 2010)

Everyone has pretty much heard of the assault on the IDF troops, regarding the flotilla of "relief" ships:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

In this particular case, the IDF has video of the incident, where the alleged "relief" workers attacked the lawful boarders, using clubs, knives, firearms, and even a grenade.  

To me, this looks like a trolling attempt by the "relief" workers.  

If they really were looking to simply get humanitarian aid to the Gaza residents, then why didn't they simply drop off the cargo with the Israelis?  Everyone already knows that if you drop off the aid, they'll do the usual inspection, and then send it to the aid distribution centers in that area.


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## CoryKS (Jun 3, 2010)

This thread should end well.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 3, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> If they really were looking to simply get humanitarian aid to the Gaza residents, then why didn't they simply drop off the cargo with the Israelis?



Because they were trying to make a point and perhaps draw a reaction.  That doesn't excuse or justify anything, on either side.

Usually though, ships need no justification to repel boarders in international waters.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2010)

If someone repelled on to your ship in international waters, you would start swinging too.
Sean


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## chaos1551 (Jun 3, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> This thread should end well.



I've heard lots of crap about this episode.  Both sides condemn the other.  

Common sense (garnered from media stories and interviews) places the blame with both sides, in my opinion.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 3, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> If someone repelled on to your ship in international waters, you would start swinging too.
> Sean



Because they were just floating around, minding their own business, and were swarmed by soldiers for no reason at all.  They had not declared their intent to violate a naval blockade and deliver supplies ashore.  They had not rejected a request to put into port, have their cargo inspected, and then have Israel transport it for them to the intended destinations.  Nothing like that.  They were fishing.  Yeah, that's it, fishing.

Let's say it was a boat full of Israelis bringing 'aid' to Jews who live in Turkey under repressive conditions.  The Turks tell them not to and board the ship before it arrives.  The Israelis start beating them with chairs and shooting at them, maybe tossing a couple grenades.  You seriously think the world would be condemning the Turks if they reacted as the Israelis did?

It was a set-piece battle, intended to provoke a reaction, which it did.


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## Big Don (Jun 4, 2010)

Here's a telling quote from one of the organizers of the flotilla:

"This mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies it's about breaking Israel's siege on 1.5 million Palestinians," she said.
 If that doesn't show you who the real bad guys were and are in this, you have issues...


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## Empty Hands (Jun 4, 2010)

Big Don said:


> If that doesn't show you who the real bad guys were and are in this, you have issues...



Did you know that under the embargo, fresh meat, coriander, newspapers and dried fruit are not allowed into Gaza?  I haven't yet seen a rocket made from coriander and fresh meat.  The embargo is clearly about more than stopping the attacks, so I wouldn't claim that the lines can be drawn so neatly.


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## CoryKS (Jun 4, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Did you know that under the embargo, fresh meat, coriander, newspapers and dried fruit are not allowed into Gaza? I haven't yet seen a rocket made from coriander and fresh meat. The embargo is clearly about more than stopping the attacks, so I wouldn't claim that the lines can be drawn so neatly.


 
Is that also the case with the embargo that Egypt is imposing on Gaza?  That's a bizarre list of items.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 4, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Is that also the case with the embargo that Egypt is imposing on Gaza?  That's a bizarre list of items.



Egypt is more lax than Israel in maintaining the embargo, so I kind of doubt it.  Sources I have seen claim that Israel doesn't want the Gazans to starve (so many basic foodstuffs are allowed) but they do want them miserable and unhappy enough to turn on Hamas.  They don't want them providing for themselves either, which is why livestock, fishing equipment, and similar are also not allowed in.

I should make it clear, I'm not really defending one side here.  The problem that Israel faces is basically intractable, at least in the short term.  I have sympathy for the history, and for the attacks they have to figure out a way to stop.  I also have sympathy for the people holed up in the strip with no where to go, dependent on food aid, and with a lot of anger at the people keeping them bottled up.  Neither side can be completely justified nor completely demonized.  Treating the Israelis like saints just confuses the issue and makes solving it that much harder.  The lines are not neatly drawn.

Israel does need to step up their creative thinking though.  They are losing the long term PR battle, and they cannot survive as an isolated pariah.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 4, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Egypt is more lax than Israel in maintaining the embargo, so I kind of doubt it.


 

Egypt just opened the Rafah crossing. Until a few days ago, the ony way to get goods from Egypt into Gaza was to smuggle through the tunnels.

And BTW, Egypt is now building a wall that not only goes up, but down into the ground to stop the tunnelling.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 4, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> Egypt just opened the Rafah crossing. Until a few days ago, the ony way to get goods from Egypt into Gaza was to smuggle through the tunnels.
> 
> And BTW, Egypt is now building a wall that not only goes up, but down into the ground to stop the tunnelling.



Sheesh, sounds serious.  I had read that they were more lax, and more willing to ease restrictions now and again.  That may not be the case.


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## Big Don (Jun 4, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Sheesh, sounds serious.  I had read that they were more lax, and more willing to ease restrictions now and again.  That may not be the case.


It couldn't be that no civilized nation wants terrorist scum around?
You take a quote from one of the organizers, which explicitly states the flotilla had NOTHING to do with humanitarian aid, and still argue it is all Israel's fault. Lenin (supposedly) had a term for that...


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## Empty Hands (Jun 4, 2010)

Big Don said:


> You take a quote from one of the organizers, which explicitly states the flotilla had NOTHING to do with humanitarian aid, and still argue it is all Israel's fault.



That is precisely what I have *not *done and if you had any interest in a fair or honest reading, you would know that.


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## knuckleheader (Jun 4, 2010)

Israel will defend itself. If their enemy makes a move, there will be a clash.

Until the Islamist(Arab states) stop trying to conquer Israel, there will be no peace.

Stop acting as thou this attempt to break blockade was anything else.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 4, 2010)

Here is some video of the attack.






RT is reporting that the Israeli soldiers boarded and started shooting.  20 people were killed on the ships and six IDF solders were injured.


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## knuckleheader (Jun 4, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Here is some video of the attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Who or what is RT?


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## Makalakumu (Jun 4, 2010)

knuckleheader said:


> Who or what is RT?



Russia Today.  Yeah I know, for many old school red blooded Americans, this may seem ironic, but I'll tell you something, I've followed RT for some time now and they usually are more accurate, have more thought provoking stories, and are less beholden to the special interests then just about any media sources out there.


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## knuckleheader (Jun 4, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Russia Today. Yeah I know, for many old school red blooded Americans, this may seem ironic, but I'll tell you something, I've followed RT for some time now and they usually are more accurate, have more thought provoking stories, and are less beholden to the special interests then just about any media sources out there.


 

Thanks Man.....



Russia Today / Putin tommorow
LOL


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## CanuckMA (Jun 4, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Here is some video of the attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Account from one of the Israeli: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445

Essentially, the 'activists' were shot when they advanced on IDF protecting their wounded.

And it's 9 killed, not 20.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 4, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> And it's 9 killed, not 20.



How do you know it's nine and not 20?  Seriously, unless you count the bodies you don't really know do you...  

It's all propaganda and spin.  It's better to understand your own biases in order to sharpen discernment.


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## Archangel M (Jun 4, 2010)

BTW. A little advice for the next time.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 4, 2010)

Woe is me zionism?

Israel has 400 nukes. They have tons of advanced weapon systems. They aren't going any where. The US doesn't need to support Israel.  Especially when they feel like they can get agree pass for war crimes. Let's say the Israelis didn't shoot first and that the flotilla was simply trying to repellent borders in international waters. Do ships have a right to defend themselves even from a government that is supported by our government? If Iran did this people would be singing a different kind of propaganda.


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## elder999 (Jun 4, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Israel has 400 nukes. .


 
_Frahumph!_ Maybe as many as that, maybe as few as 50. They've definitely generated enough material for about that many........


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## Archangel M (Jun 5, 2010)

NZ's natives and neighboring countries havent stated that their goals were to wipe NZ off of the map...and made the attempt...have they?


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## Tez3 (Jun 5, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> How do you know it's nine and not 20? Seriously, unless you count the bodies you don't really know do you...
> 
> It's all propaganda and spin. It's better to understand your own biases in order to sharpen discernment.


 

On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report of* all* the coffins of those killed arriving in Turkey, 9 of them. They are being buried in Turkey.


The truth is that most people don't actually care what happens in the Middle East, the big Arab countries such as Saudi pay lip service to condeming Israel and supporting their 'brothers'. Much of what is happening out there could be resolved but won't be through indifference. Europes and Americas interest is in oil, as long as that flows no one cares really about what is happening. Arms dealers and that includes governments are enjoying the dividend of so many wanting arms, the recession holds most peoples attention as it concrns them and theres, whoc ares whats happening elsewhere?  Yeah make a verbal protest then get on with life, thats what most think. Vent a bit of spleen against the Israelis, make yourself feel better, hell aren't that what Jews are for, to condemn? Yeah lets go back to Germany or Poland though my family never lived there being from the Netherlands. they died in Germany and the ashes from the crematoria scattered there though, does that count?


As with all things, one should listen to all these reports and realise that the media has it's own agenda which isn't actually telling the truth, it's telling a story with the view to selling advertising space and/or newspapers. 

Oh and the Jews *are* the natives in Israel, they didn't leave Israel, they were invaded several times by various nations but always there's been Jews in Israel, the number swelled of course with immigration but always Jews have owned land, lived and died in Israel. Many, many thousands actually, thoughout the land. Jesus was a Jew remember, living in Israel called by the Romans Palestine, no Muslims around then, just Jews and the invaders. The Muslim invaders came later, so did the Christian Crusaders, the Turks and the British but always Jews were living there.

Who is anyone to 'give' Israel to it's original people? Perhaps Britain as the original 'owners' of America should 'give' back the land to it's original owners the native Americans?  Americans certainly led by example there didn't they? don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.


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## elder999 (Jun 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report of* all* the coffins of those killed arriving in Turkey, 9 of them. They are being buried in Turkey.



Even the American?


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## Tez3 (Jun 5, 2010)

elder999 said:


> Even the American?


The Turks didn't say there was an American, if they have the body and possession is 9 tenths of the law they may well bury them ! they were all making a big deal of staying in Turkey until after the funerals there.


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## knuckleheader (Jun 5, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> ..... May be Israel can play nicer with its natives. .


 
How naive. It's the "natives" that want to eliminate Israel. If the enemies of Israel would stop firing rockets/suicide bombers, they'd co-exist.


The radical Arab militants do not want to live in peace. There are plenty Palestinians that would stop fighting. But, leaders of Hamas and other similar groups keep waging war.

The militants are responsible for the deaths of innocents!

Helen Thomas needs to be put out to pasture.


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## elder999 (Jun 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The Turks didn't say there was an American, if they have the body and possession is 9 tenths of the law they may well bury them ! they were all making a big deal of staying in Turkey until after the funerals there.


 

Quite right: American Furkan Dorgan,19, shot 4 times in head and one in chest, was a Turkish-American who lived in Turkey.....


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## Big Don (Jun 5, 2010)

*



			We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us
		
Click to expand...

*
Golda Meir


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## Makalakumu (Jun 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report of* all* the coffins of those killed arriving in Turkey, 9 of them. They are being buried in Turkey.



If that really was all of the coffins, then that settles it.  The point is that you've got to take what the MSM offers with a chunk of rock salt.  Even the BBC is not above taking video of nine coffins and claiming that this was all there was.  There may still have been more killed, we simply don't know.



Tez3 said:


> Oh and the Jews *are* the natives in Israel, they didn't leave Israel, they were invaded several times by various nations but always there's been Jews in Israel, the number swelled of course with immigration but always Jews have owned land, lived and died in Israel. Many, many thousands actually, thoughout the land. Jesus was a Jew remember, living in Israel called by the Romans Palestine, no Muslims around then, just Jews and the invaders. The Muslim invaders came later, so did the Christian Crusaders, the Turks and the British but always Jews were living there.
> 
> Who is anyone to 'give' Israel to it's original people? Perhaps Britain as the original 'owners' of America should 'give' back the land to it's original owners the native Americans?  Americans certainly led by example there didn't they? don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.



This might be a side issue, but something I've always wondered is how can a religion be a race?  In Poland and Germany, at various times, large numbers of people converted to Judaism.  Many of the Israelis now, came from this stock.  How can anyone consider these people to be the natives of Palestine?  

How many Jews (or Israelis) can really trace back their lineage to Jews that lived in Palestine?


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## Ramirez (Jun 5, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Because they were just floating around, minding their own business, and were swarmed by soldiers for no reason at all. They had not declared their intent to violate a naval blockade and deliver supplies ashore. They had not rejected a request to put into port, have their cargo inspected, and then have Israel transport it for them to the intended destinations. Nothing like that. They were fishing. Yeah, that's it, fishing.
> 
> Let's say it was a boat full of Israelis bringing 'aid' to Jews who live in Turkey under repressive conditions. The Turks tell them not to and board the ship before it arrives. The Israelis start beating them with chairs and shooting at them, maybe tossing a couple grenades. You seriously think the world would be condemning the Turks if they reacted as the Israelis did?
> 
> It was a set-piece battle, intended to provoke a reaction, which it did.


 
Do you seriously think if it were not aid for the Palestinians that they would not get more sympathy?

Seems like certain parties tried something similar before and weren't condemned for it.

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0795/9507046.htm


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## Archangel M (Jun 5, 2010)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html



> *Krauthammer: Those troublesome Jews
> *Charles Krauthammer
> Friday, June 4, 2010
> 
> ...


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> one should listen to all these reports and realise that the media has it's own agenda which isn't actually telling the truth, it's telling a story with the view to selling advertising space and/or newspapers.
> 
> Oh and the Jews *are* the natives in Israel


 
QFT
:asian:


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> If that really was all of the coffins, then that settles it. The point is that you've got to take what the MSM offers with a chunk of rock salt. Even the BBC is not above taking video of nine coffins and claiming that this was all there was. There may still have been more killed, we simply don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I didn't say the BBC reported only 9 coffins, I said the Turks reported nine coffins and they have a dog in this fight as the 'protestors' were funded by them, it's in their interest to say there were more killed not less.

Large numbers of people converted to Judaism? Really? where did you get that from? Very few people want to convert to Judaism as it usually means getting killed or at the very least kicked out of your country. I think your research is faulty there. I have no knowledge of _large_ numbers converting, why would they when hated so much by the Christians? Give me a year or even a century this happened because I can assure you that didn't happen. Individual conversions on marriage more than likely but there were no large scale conversions. However between 1800 and 1810 one tenth of the German population converted to Christianity not the other way around. Fifty out of the 405 Jewish families in Berlin converted.

The natives of Israel _are_ the Jews, what, did you think every single Jew from Jesus' time upped and left the country? A great many left as slaves, to other parts of the known world at the time but Jews have always lived in Israel, long before the Arabs arrived. Have a look at Jewish history, Jews were still in Israel when the Crusaders were there,they were still there at the end of the First World War and they were still thee after the Second World War.  Jews have always been in Israel. Why wouldn't they be?


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## Makalakumu (Jun 6, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I didn't say the BBC reported only 9 coffins, I said the Turks reported nine coffins and they have a dog in this fight as the 'protestors' were funded by them, it's in their interest to say there were more killed not less.



You saw this on BBC.  You said so yourself.  

"On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report..."

This means that the BBC is reporting on something that apparently happened on Turkish television.  You still don't know how many were actually killed.



Tez3 said:


> Large numbers of people converted to Judaism? Really? where did you get that from?



I just finished a book on Polish history that illustrated the history of Judaism in that country.  Basically, it stated that a large number of people converted to Judaism because Jews actually had more rights in Poland then other people.  They could own land, they could own banks, they could start businesses.  Most of the Jews lived in the towns and people from the countryside would move into the towns and join their community in order to have a better life.  There were two large periods of conversion.  Between 800 and 1000 when Christianity was first moving into Poland and 1300 to 1500 when the weak Polish state could hardly govern the country, much less organize any persecution.

So, you can assure me that this didn't happen?  



Tez3 said:


> The natives of Israel _are_ the Jews, what, did you think every single Jew from Jesus' time upped and left the country? A great many left as slaves, to other parts of the known world at the time but Jews have always lived in Israel, long before the Arabs arrived. Have a look at Jewish history, Jews were still in Israel when the Crusaders were there,they were still there at the end of the First World War and they were still thee after the Second World War.  Jews have always been in Israel. Why wouldn't they be?



Like all people, the Jews eventually came from somewhere else.  If you trace the generations back, you'll get to a time where people had to move into the area that would become known as Palestine.  The same is true for every people on Earth.  

This reads like the argument that many native tribes of North America make where they say they have always been on this land that that their people didn't cross the land bridge and never came from anywhere else.  That's bogus too, and they know it deep down and they also know that it's bogusness undermines any special claims on the land they inhabit.  It's the same with the Isrealis, except that their claim is even more tenuous and illogical.

The bottom line is this, despite all of the Isreali Nationalist propaganda to the contrary, you have Jews of every race, in all different kinds of countries, who have no link whatsoever to Palestine.  This is because Judaism is an idea and has nothing to do with biology or geography.  Anyone can be a Jew simply by believing in Judaism.  How can you honestly claim that all of these people are natives of Palestine?  

How many Jews in Israel can honestly trace their ancestry back to Palestine thousands of years ago?  Can you?


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## CanuckMA (Jun 6, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> I just finished a book on Polish history that illustrated the history of Judaism in that country. Basically, it stated that a large number of people converted to Judaism because Jews actually had more rights in Poland then other people. They could own land, they could own banks, they could start businesses. Most of the Jews lived in the towns and people from the countryside would move into the towns and join their community in order to have a better life. There were two large periods of conversion. Between 800 and 1000 when Christianity was first moving into Poland and 1300 to 1500 when the weak Polish state could hardly govern the country, much less organize any persecution.
> 
> So, you can assure me that this didn't happen?


 
Book's title and author?



> Like all people, the Jews eventually came from somewhere else. If you trace the generations back, you'll get to a time where people had to move into the area that would become known as Palestine. The same is true for every people on Earth.
> 
> This reads like the argument that many native tribes of North America make where they say they have always been on this land that that their people didn't cross the land bridge and never came from anywhere else. That's bogus too, and they know it deep down and they also know that it's bogusness undermines any special claims on the land they inhabit. It's the same with the Isrealis, except that their claim is even more tenuous and illogical.
> 
> ...


 

DNA studies of Jews show that the majority af Jews are geneticaly related to the Middle East.


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## Archangel M (Jun 6, 2010)

http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(10)00246-6


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## CanuckMA (Jun 7, 2010)

Where's the outrage towards Egypt?


http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177687


Iran's escalation: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy


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## CanuckMA (Jun 7, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> I don't, of course. But you didn't offer any cogent facts or citations from history. You dismissed the work cited by mauna because the authors were Poles. You offered no reason to do so other than the fact that they were Poles, such as offering other works, citations or academics which would support your point. When I challenged you on it, you responded with a remark about close minded goy.
> 
> What else am I supposed to think?
> 
> History is not argued by dismissing the historian for no good reason.


 
And he's been asked for titles and authors. 

We can't directly cite other sources because it never happened. History books are usualy light on mentioning things that don't happen.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 7, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> I always wonder about the simple thing:
> The Jewish people have been exposed to more hate, expulsion and killings that any other race/tribe in the world... Yet why do they impose just the same on other people (being the palestines in this case)?
> 
> 5 Belgian people were on board of one of the ships.
> ...


 

The boarding was legal. There was no issue with the other 5 ships. There was no issue with the Rachel Corrie.  

Hamas is refusing to let the aid from the convoy in.

Egypt is stopping medical aid from entering Gaza. 

Hamas is refusing the Red Cross' offer to distribute medical supplies. 

Israel just let in a convoy of aid from Jordan.


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## Tez3 (Jun 7, 2010)

Lots of countries have special units that board ships, they are fishery protection vessels, customs and excise vessals and immigration control vessels.

Zionism and Judaism are different subjects, Not all Jews are Zionists, not all Zionists are Jews. (an example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orde_Wingate )

Try the books on my suggested reading list.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 7, 2010)

The Canadian Navy routinely boards foreign fishing vessels in international waters. Maritime Law recognizes a further zone beyond ones territorial waters.


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## xJOHNx (Jun 7, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> The boarding was legal. There was no issue with the other 5 ships. There was no issue with the Rachel Corrie.
> 
> Hamas is refusing to let the aid from the convoy in.
> 
> ...


There were issues with the other ships, the Greek ship Sfendoni was shot at.
And the boarding was clearly illegal, it happened in international waters. Ships at sea are under the jurisdiction of the Flag State and breaking an unrecognized and illegal bloccade is not a crime that falls under international Sea Laws. Smart? No. Legal? Yes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters)

I understand why hamas does that. And about Egypt, well they are afraid and bow under pressure.


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## Archangel M (Jun 7, 2010)

Theres one thing I want to know...

Why do so many American Jews continue to support the Democratic party?


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## Big Don (Jun 7, 2010)

Meanwhile, back at the original topic:
Little Green Footballs  has an interesting post:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art...op_a_Photo_to_Remove_a_Peace_Activists_Weapon


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 8, 2010)

Here's something interesting.  Given Reuter's history of manipulating photographs to 'make' news slant one way or another...

http://blogs.reuters.com/gbu/2010/06/07/cropped-photos/

Take a look at the photos and the comments...


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## Grenadier (Jun 8, 2010)

Back to the topic at hand, 

Shame on Reuters for editing the footage, to paint it as more pro-"activist":

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/08/reuters-fake-photos-ihh-gaza-blockade-commandos/



> The British-based Reuters news agency has been stung for the second time by charges that it edited politically sensitive photos in a way that casts Israel in a bad light.
> 
> The news agency reacted to questions raised by an American blogger who showed that Reuters' photo service edited out knives and blood traces from pictures taken aboard the activist ship Mavi Marmara during a clash with Israeli commandos last week. Nine people were killed and scores were injured in the clash.


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## Big Don (Jun 8, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> Back to the topic at hand,
> 
> Shame on Reuters for editing the footage, to paint it as more pro-"activist":
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/08/reuters-fake-photos-ihh-gaza-blockade-commandos/


OK. This is the THIRD post concerning Reuters faking pictures of the "Peaceful"terrorist sympathizers. Can we get back to the topic? Or will there be 40 more posts on Jewish genetics?


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## CanuckMA (Jun 8, 2010)

If it was all about the aid, then how come Hamas is refusing the ships' cargo?




> Despite international criticism against Israel following a calamitous IDF raid on an aid flotilla to Gaza, it appeared Monday that Hamas was the one preventing the goods brought by the flotilla from entering the Strip.
> 
> 
> The army announced Monday that the humanitarian aid brought by the ships had been mostly unloaded, and estimated that the task would be completed in the next few days.
> ...


 
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3901662,00.html


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## CanuckMA (Jun 8, 2010)

Big Don said:


> OK. This is the THIRD post concerning Reuters faking pictures of the "Peaceful"terrorist sympathizers. Can we get back to the topic? Or will there be 40 more posts on Jewish genetics?


 

Link shows both sets of pictures
http://blogs.reuters.com/gbu/2010/06/07/cropped-photos/


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## CoryKS (Jun 8, 2010)

LOL.  An Israeli student group is trying to organize a flotilla to send humanitarian aid to the Kurds and Armenians in Turkey.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177789


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## xJOHNx (Jun 9, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> LOL.  An Israeli student group is trying to organize a flotilla to send humanitarian aid to the Kurds and Armenians in Turkey.
> 
> http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177789


They should do that!


And the reason why Hamas doesn't accept the goods from the IDF is pretty simple... "Why give us things, when we are able to do it ourselves if we were allowed"

Alot less clusterbombs would probably help too..


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> They should do that!
> 
> 
> And the reason why Hamas doesn't accept the goods from the IDF is pretty simple... "Why give us things, when we are able to do it ourselves if we were allowed"


 
But they still accept the 15,000 tommes a week coming through Israel from other nations, notably Jordan. 

Read the article carefully. It's not that they don't want it. They don't want it coming through a land crossing.



> Alot less clusterbombs would probably help too..


A lot less rockets raining on Israel would be a good start.

The justification used to be they were resisting the occupation. Well, the occupation ended in 2005 when all Jews were removed from Gaza. Leaving behind a modern, viable greenhouse agro-business. After destroying synagogues, neighbourhoods, the Gazans then destroyed the greenhouses. 

Billions have been sent to Gaza. Most ends up in the hands of Hamas, used to fund the terrorist activities.


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## xJOHNx (Jun 9, 2010)

Ofcourse they don't want it coming over land. They are extremely paranoid.


Ah yes, indeed alot less rockets would be a beginning. 
But is it up to the people living in poverty to start the negotiations? They are with their backs against the proverbial wall. They have nothing.
And seriously, homemade rockets vs one of the most expensive/well-equiped armies in the world?
Everywhere in the world nations sign treaties not to use clusterbombs or land-mines anymore, because the real innocent get hit with it most of the times. Guess who doesn't?

The occupation did not end. Friends have been there, I have been there. The occupation did not end. They just started building somewhere else.
I'm actually planning on going back.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> Ofcourse they don't want it coming over land. They are extremely paranoid.


 
Yet they allow 15,000 tonnes a week through those same land crossings.



> Ah yes, indeed alot less rockets would be a beginning.
> But is it up to the people living in poverty to start the negotiations? They are with their backs against the proverbial wall. They have nothing.
> And seriously, homemade rockets vs one of the most expensive/well-equiped armies in the world?


 
Maybe just because that army is reluctant to unleash it's power?

How would you like homemade rockets falling down in YOUR neighbourhood?



> The occupation did not end. Friends have been there, I have been there. The occupation did not end. They just started building somewhere else.
> I'm actually planning on going back.


 

Israel is completely out of Gaza. Point out where they are building in Gaza?

Or do you subscribe to the line that all if Israel is occupied territories?


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

Where is the world's outrage at Egypt for not letting steel and cement through to Gaza?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bab...arian-aid-convoy-enters-gaza-without-aid.html


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## xJOHNx (Jun 9, 2010)

Do not put words into my mouth that I didn't say.

As far as I know, settlers have indeed left Gaza (I didn't do a google search).
Now if it was the same voor Erfat (Near Wad Rahal) and N'ilin in the West-Bank..

In europe bombing attacks have been made in the past and the near past. The IRA, ETA, Catalan Liberation Army and so on.
Never saw those governements built walls around certain area's, deny medical help or same things around those lines.
Maybe a logical fallacy on my side, but just pointing out the fact that inhumane treatment results in inhumane reactions.

And I don't know what happens to Egypt... Strange decisions.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> Do not put words into my mouth that I didn't say.
> 
> As far as I know, settlers have indeed left Gaza (I didn't do a google search).
> Now if it was the same voor Erfat (Near Wad Rahal) and N'ilin in the West-Bank..
> ...


 
Well actually we did build a wall in Belfast and London has some very large barriers around certain buildings.

I think you will have to prove that medical aid isn't getting through to Gaza when I know that people from there are being treated in Israeli hospitals, far too easy to accuse.


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## xJOHNx (Jun 9, 2010)

One more than one occasion did both I and others see Palestine people standing in line at a border crossing begging for entrance into Israel for medical reasons. When we were standing around to long, we actually got approached because the soldiers were getting nervous.

Well, I didn't know that about Belfast and London. My bad


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## CanuckMA (Jun 9, 2010)

xJOHNx said:


> Do not put words into my mouth that I didn't say.
> 
> 
> > The occupation did not end. Friends have been there, I have been there. The occupation did not end. They just started building somewhere else.
> ...


 
You do realize that Gaza (that we are discussing) and the West Bank are 2 different matter, right?

The plan was to leave Gaza, and within a year do the same with the WB. 

While the decision to leave Gaza, and to make the Arabs happy by removing all Jews from there, was not a popular decision, the Israeli population accepted it as a condition of the peace they want. 

Once the attacks from Gaza intensified after the withdrawal, there was no way Israel was going to unilaterally withdraw from the WB.

However, the economy and living conditions are much better in the WB. No, they're no ideal. But the relative quiet from the WB has meant more relaxed security and economic measures.




> In europe bombing attacks have been made in the past and the near past. The IRA, ETA, Catalan Liberation Army and so on.
> Never saw those governements built walls around certain area's, deny medical help or same things around those lines.
> Maybe a logical fallacy on my side, but just pointing out the fact that inhumane treatment results in inhumane reactions.


 
Not to dismiss the suffering of those acts of terrorism, none of those groups were constantly shelling population centers. 

Plenty of Palestinians are being treated in Israel. But do keep in mind that Israel is in a state of armed conflict with Hamas.


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## xJOHNx (Jun 9, 2010)

I'll just sum it up, I know.
It's basic history we get in high school.

Yes, they are different matters, but come down to the same problem.

And have you ever been there?


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2010)

Canucks answered the OP questions but just to add a bit about the Irish one as it was brought up. 
http://www.geographyinaction.co.uk/Ethnic%20Diversity/Ethnic_PeaceLines.html

The situation in Northern Ireland is not dis-similiar nor has it been resolved, it's quieter and more peaceful than it's ever been but there's still shooting, bombings and murders. The tensions between the two sides is easing but is still very much in the background.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation that causes more than Israeli deaths, this report is a newpaper not known for it's support of Israel and includes criticism of Israel.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/20/hamas-killings-gaza-human-rights

Again not a pro Isreali paper
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6397995.ece

And lastly very much not Israeli supporters!

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/06/200964131434353898.html


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## jks9199 (Jun 11, 2010)

You may notice that this thread has shrunk dramatically. Missing posts regarding Jewish history, what it is to be Jewish, Israeli history, and more have been moved to a new thread, History of Judaism & Israel.

Perhaps we can all stay on topic in this one now, huh?

Yes, you may consider that a formal warning:  *STAY ON TOPIC*.

jks9199
Super Moderator


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