# Looking To Get Started



## JMulford

Hey everyone,

I'm a 37-year old who has just re-discovered my love for physical fitness. I had taken a handful of years off for various reasons. One thing I have found about myself is that I tend to fall off the wagon when I don't have something outside of the gym to focus on. In my younger years, it was always basketball. I would play hours of pick-up games throughout the week. At my age now, I will still pick up a ball from time to time but because of a few reasons, I don't really consider that a serious option going forward.

When I was younger, I did kickboxing for about two years, but at this point, I have basically forgotten 99.9% of it, so that's pretty moot as far as my experience goes. I have always had a passion for martial arts but for a variety of reasons(time and financial being the two big ones), I was never able to fully embrace them over the years.

Now, I am financially fine and while I'm not loaded with free time, I can certainly squeeze in 3-5 classes a week. The thing now is to discover what art may be the best suited for me.

Currently, I am 37 as mentioned above, and am 6'3"/225 pounds. By the time I start anything up, I anticipate being below 220.

I have multiple reasons that I want to join a dojo/club/gym. One is physical fitness, another is to test myself against others, certainly some self defense although I hope to never need it, and another is to set a goal through either a belt system or competition system. I'm pretty goal oriented and it's what tends to drive me in every aspect of my life, so while I know a belt isn't what an ultimate goal should be, it's certainly something I can use for a personal motivation tool.

I consider myself of average fitness currently, although I am on the path to be at least a little above average. I've always been a pretty good athlete through the years. Nothing exceptional, but I can hold my own in most areas that I have applied myself.

I have essentially narrowed my options down to a few arts/gyms and I do fully plan on going to watch a few classes at each. I would just like an opinion or two on what might fit my frame/goals/age. Below I will list the gyms that I am looking at. These all fit into my time frame and I will list the art I am interested in there on the side. Any thoughts on the instructors if you may be familiar with any of them would be greatly appreciated as well.

Soma Jiu Jitsu Academy  - BJJ

Dayton MMA Academy - Kickboxing/BBJ

Main - Tama Martial Arts Center  - Kenpo/Kickboxing

GiYu Dojo  - Judo

http://sgbjj.com/  - BJJ

Dayton Kali Academy Schedule  - their overall program


I feel fortunate as most of these gyms seem to have pretty legit leadership, but I would still like any thoughts and/or suggestions that can be given to me. Thanks everyone for your time and I look forward to being a part of the group.


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## Aiki Lee

Personally I recommend the judo or the BJJ classes based off what you say you are looking for.


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## kuniggety

Personally, S&G really jumped out at me because they have multiple black belt BJJ instructors and a judo instructor too. The same for Dayton MMA... gi and no-gi, BJJ, Judo, and Muay Thai if you decide to do some striking. A little judo cross-training would help any BJJ player.

As much as kali is a great art, it doesn't seem to fit the bill of what you're looking for with a rank structure and competition.

I would really recommend just visiting all of them and see which throws off the best vibes to you.


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## Buka

Welcome to MartialTalk, bro.


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## oftheherd1

Welcome to Martial Talk.

As to your question, I really can't offer much advice.  I haven not taken any of the arts you mention, and am not really familiar enough with them to suggest them, and then give reasons. Inasmuch as my art is a grappling art along with striking and kicking, I could only suggest Judo, or a Kenpo school that does both grappling and striking.

Good luck in your search.


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## KenpoMaster805

Irecommend kenpo kickboxing


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## KenpoMaster805

welcome to MA


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## WaterGal

Welcome!  Thanks for posting links to the places you're looking at - a lot of people come on and are like "I live in LA and want to take martial arts, where should I go?", which is practically impossible to answer.  Your links narrow it down a lot.

I don't know anything about Kali, so I can't speak to that.  The GiYu page was, I dunno, their Judo may be fine, if they're part of the US national Judo org, but the overall vibe of the site was.... weird.  For example, there were a odd amount of Kendo uniforms and equipment, for a place that doesn't teach Kendo.

I think the SG and Soma places looked like they have the best adult programs from their websites.  But you can't really know until you go check them out.


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## JP3

I also recommend Judo or BJJ to fill this desire. I'll warn you though, if you go with BJJ, you should probably adjust the initial goal to reaching your Blue Belt. The BJJ crew is very proud of the black belt rank, and in their paradigm of what it means, I totally get it.

You'll have to wrk hard, and you'll sweat a LOT getting ajudo black belt, don't worry about that. Either art is a good fit for the size/structure.  I've BT/DT on the kickboxing, and I did hapkido instead of the kenpo, and while I'm not comparing the arts, the workouts are in the same galaxy, but at the age you are (I can say that as I'm older than you, Ha!), I'd really recommend a grappling art over a striking art. But, that's just my opinion.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Irecommend kenpo kickboxing


What about kenpo/kickboxing do you think fulfill his goals the best? Preferably with something more than your usual "I like kenpo so he will too"...


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## JMulford

Thanks for the responses guys. I really appreciate the input and the time. I do have a few more questions as I am narrowing my choices. I am down to three of the schools now in my choice and my questions are in direct relation to each school.

(1). I know it's not unusual to cross-train sports but if a class is 6-7 and the next class is 7-8, would it be inappropriate or unusual to duck into the later class as soon as you can(after the other class ends of course)?

(2). How much should I consider lineage? For example, a BJJ instructor I have the choice of got his BB from Pedro Sauer, who got his from Rickson Gracies. That's a pretty direct link to the Gracie family. Is that something to strongly consider or just an added bonus or not important at all?

(3). I watched some video footage of the Judo place I was looking at and noticed them rolling in a few of the scenes. From what I have read, it seems that this is something a lot of people would appreciate from their Judo class but don't get all of the time. Is this a big plus or more of a personal preference thing?

(4). This is probably a personal opinion but I'd still like to hear them. Do you consider BJJ or Judo a better physical workout in terms of cardio and overall body work? I am still considering cross-training Kickboxing but I kind of expect that to be the heaviest workout in terms of cardio, although I readily admit that I could be wrong since I don't really know anything. 

Thanks again for all feedback. I may end up with a few more questions and I'd prefer to keep it in this thread rather than starting a bunch of new posts to litter the board with.


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## JMulford

WaterGal said:


> Welcome!  Thanks for posting links to the places you're looking at - a lot of people come on and are like "I live in LA and want to take martial arts, where should I go?", which is practically impossible to answer.  Your links narrow it down a lot.
> 
> I don't know anything about Kali, so I can't speak to that.  The GiYu page was, I dunno, their Judo may be fine, if they're part of the US national Judo org, but the overall vibe of the site was.... weird.  For example, there were a odd amount of Kendo uniforms and equipment, for a place that doesn't teach Kendo.
> 
> I think the SG and Soma places looked like they have the best adult programs from their websites.  But you can't really know until you go check them out.




Yeah, the GiYu page is a bit different but from what I gather, the Judo guys just rent out space there and because of that, they link through that page. There's another art that is run by whomever owns the building and that's what the webpage seems to highlight the most. The Judo guys train and participate in tournaments and are affiliated with US Judo from what I researched.

Also, I read through quite a few threads before posting, so I kind of knew what to post to get a positive reaction. I definitely didn't want to be "that guy" with my first post. Other than that, I'm just the typical new guy looking for advice and most people I have read on here seem to be passionate and knowledgeable.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

JMulford said:


> Thanks for the responses guys. I really appreciate the input and the time. I do have a few more questions as I am narrowing my choices. I am down to three of the schools now in my choice and my questions are in direct relation to each school.
> 
> (1). I know it's not unusual to cross-train sports but if a class is 6-7 and the next class is 7-8, would it be inappropriate or unusual to duck into the later class as soon as you can(after the other class ends of course)?


Are you referring to two classes at the same place? If so, they probably have it set up that way so that you can do exacrtly that! If it's two different places, it wouldnt be rude to cross train, but being consistently late will probably start annoying them.



> (2). How much should I consider lineage? For example, a BJJ instructor I have the choice of got his BB from Pedro Sauer, who got his from Rickson Gracies. That's a pretty direct link to the Gracie family. Is that something to strongly consider or just an added bonus or not important at all?


 Lineage is nice, but in reality not that important. If a person is focusing too much on his lineage and not enough on what he can do, that might be an issue. If an instructor is hidign his lineage, that also might be an issue. Otherwise it doesn't really matter.



> (3). I watched some video footage of the Judo place I was looking at and noticed them rolling in a few of the scenes. From what I have read, it seems that this is something a lot of people would appreciate from their Judo class but don't get all of the time. Is this a big plus or more of a personal preference thing?


 You absolutely do want a place that rolls. That's a large portion of Judo, and the schools that neglect it are neglecting a part of the curriculum. Definitely a big plus. (Plus, rolling is hella fun)



> (4). This is probably a personal opinion but I'd still like to hear them. Do you consider BJJ or Judo a better physical workout in terms of cardio and overall body work? I am still considering cross-training Kickboxing but I kind of expect that to be the heaviest workout in terms of cardio, although I readily admit that I could be wrong since I don't really know anything.



The answer you will probably hear is that grappling is the better workout. However, I don't necessarily think thats true. They both work out different muscle groups, and when you start with grappling you will be using a lot of energy to make up for your lack of technique, so you will be exhausted from about 15 seconds in. And a lot of striking places will ignore cardio because 'it isn't as important as technique'. However, if the kickboxing place goes hard on the cardio (even just making you do multiple 3 minute rounds in a row), and the judo/bjj place has you doing randori or rolling fairly often, then both will get you a pretty good workout.



Out of curiosity, which are the 3 schools you've narrowed it down to?


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## kuniggety

JMulford said:


> Thanks for the responses guys. I really appreciate the input and the time. I do have a few more questions as I am narrowing my choices. I am down to three of the schools now in my choice and my questions are in direct relation to each school.
> 
> (1). I know it's not unusual to cross-train sports but if a class is 6-7 and the next class is 7-8, would it be inappropriate or unusual to duck into the later class as soon as you can(after the other class ends of course)?
> 
> (2). How much should I consider lineage? For example, a BJJ instructor I have the choice of got his BB from Pedro Sauer, who got his from Rickson Gracies. That's a pretty direct link to the Gracie family. Is that something to strongly consider or just an added bonus or not important at all?
> 
> (3). I watched some video footage of the Judo place I was looking at and noticed them rolling in a few of the scenes. From what I have read, it seems that this is something a lot of people would appreciate from their Judo class but don't get all of the time. Is this a big plus or more of a personal preference thing?
> 
> (4). This is probably a personal opinion but I'd still like to hear them. Do you consider BJJ or Judo a better physical workout in terms of cardio and overall body work? I am still considering cross-training Kickboxing but I kind of expect that to be the heaviest workout in terms of cardio, although I readily admit that I could be wrong since I don't really know anything.
> 
> Thanks again for all feedback. I may end up with a few more questions and I'd prefer to keep it in this thread rather than starting a bunch of new posts to litter the board with.



1. Totally normal for folks to do back to back classes and roll into the second late because of the first. The beginning of classes are typically warm ups anyways and you'll be plenty warmed up from the first class.

2. All of the BJJ schools you listed have legit instructors. I wouldn't worry about it too much. The Gracies have been the biggest proponent of BJJ but there have been others and even within the Gracies there are different methodologies and even some serious feuds.

3. I would say it's a good thing because it makes you a more overal good grappler. Some judo schools just focus on Olympic style competition which is very standing focused.

4. Both are great cardio. Judo is a little more fast and furious with BJJ bouts usually not being quite as intense (i.e. You're not being slammed on the ground as much) but they last longer. BJJ is a little easier on the body.


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## Tames D

If I were in your shoes, based on the choices you presented, I'd go with Tama Martial Arts Center. They have been there for 40 years, and I like their line up. You're getting a good mix of fighting systems: *Muay Thai Kickboxing, Kenpo Karate, Traditional Chinese Martial Arts-Tien Shan Pai Kung-Fu, Tai-Chi, Kobudo Training, Filipino Kali, Aikijutsu, Traditiional Jiu-Jitsu and Qi-Gong.*
Of course, I would check it out in person and see if it's a good fit for you. And I wonder if all these arts are taught as a mixed martial art system or individually by separate instructors specializing in the respective art.
I just glanced over the website, so it might have this info.


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## Tony Dismukes

JMulford said:


> Soma Jiu Jitsu Academy - BJJ
> 
> Dayton MMA Academy - Kickboxing/BBJ
> 
> Main - Tama Martial Arts Center - Kenpo/Kickboxing
> 
> GiYu Dojo - Judo
> 
> http://sgbjj.com/ - BJJ
> 
> Dayton Kali Academy Schedule - their overall program


I can strongly recommend the Dayton MMA Academy and SGBJJ as having very good BJJ. I think they're both pretty sport-oriented, though. I don't know the instructor at Soma BJJ, but he comes from a Pedro Sauer lineage so you might get more of the self-defense application included there. Either way, I'm confident that he knows his stuff. If you're interested in BJJ I would visit all three schools and see which suits you best in terms of atmosphere and teaching style. BJJ will give you an incredible workout and plenty of opportunities for competition. Belt promotions tend to come several years apart, though, so if you need those for motivation it might not be ideal.

I'm not sure who currently teaches the kickboxing at Dayton MMA. A friend of mine (Oscar Kallet) might be taking over that position, but I'm not sure if he's officially in that role yet. He's a good coach who has been around for quite a while.

I took classes at Tama for a few months about 25 years ago. Wasn't really to my taste. It was a very commercial atmosphere and the head instructor spent most of his time in the office letting junior instructors run classes. I don't know what it's like now. You cold visit it and see what you think.

I don't know the Judo folks, but one of the members here at MartialTalk, @GiYu - Todd, is an instructor at the dojo the Judo club rents space from. He might know something about them. Judo is a great art and offers both competition opportunities (bonus - Judo tournaments usually cost less than BJJ tournaments) and belt advancement.

I don't think I know the folks at the Dayton Kali Academy. (They do list an Alex _Kolodesh_ and I know an Alex _Koldesz _who is very good. Not sure if it's the same guy.) It looks like a good school, but probably not much in the way of competitions or belts.


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## Ironbear24

I recommend everyone in the world takes Judo. Out the womb onto the matt. Karate is great too of course but there are many styles of it that I am still not too familiar with. Kenpo is a great one though.


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## JP3

(1). I know it's not unusual to cross-train sports but if a class is 6-7 and the next class is 7-8, would it be inappropriate or unusual to duck into the later class as soon as you can(after the other class ends of course)?

    Agree with the above, if the 2nd class is in the same facility, just sticking around is probably not only OK, it may be encouraged. If not at the same location, you'll end up being late for the 7 class every day and that will get you the growly face after a bit of it.

(2). How much should I consider lineage? For example, a BJJ instructor I have the choice of got his BB from Pedro Sauer, who got his from Rickson Gracies. That's a pretty direct link to the Gracie family. Is that something to strongly consider or just an added bonus or not important at all?

    It is a "thing," just as the instructor's personality is a "thing," and how they interact with students on and off the mat is another "thing." You should consider all these things. If a guy doesn't want to talk about his instructor's lineage, his instructor may be a sham, OR perhaps that guy does not want to get involved n any of the politics that goes on in an association. Believe me, there can be a lot and it's all a distraction from the goal of training.

(3). I watched some video footage of the Judo place I was looking at and noticed them rolling in a few of the scenes. From what I have read, it seems that this is something a lot of people would appreciate from their Judo class but don't get all of the time. Is this a big plus or more of a personal preference thing?

   A huge plus to get regular rolling. Also a big plus to get regular stand-up randori time, and to separate the two so as to force the student to work on the weaker section of their game.  We usually worked our way through warm-ups, then went into the groundwork part of class at the front end on purpose, as groundwork is, for the beginning student, exhausting. Once you feel like you can't really walk, and your arms feel like spaghetti noodles, THEN it's time to work on throws - when you literally can not use power to make them work. Technique is the thing. Going Mongo is to be avoided, but I digress....

(4). This is probably a personal opinion but I'd still like to hear them. Do you consider BJJ or Judo a better physical workout in terms of cardio and overall body work? I am still considering cross-training Kickboxing but I kind of expect that to be the heaviest workout in terms of cardio, although I readily admit that I could be wrong since I don't really know anything. 

    It depends on what else you've done for fitness as to which one will be the most challenging workout.  For me, the BJJ workout was the most grueling, as we had that initial body conditioning portion of the class designed to build up endurance at the front of the class, lasted about 45 minutes of a 90 minute class.  For me, in my experience, that is way harder to do, until you get used to it (like anythign else) than the standard 2-hour judo class.  In the end, since both judo and BJJ are about being relaxed and not using energy to get things to go and happen, I'd betcha that the kickboxing routine will in the long run be the hardest, as one can always just add more to it, i.e. add extra shadowboxing rounds, increase the number of kicks per set/round, increase the effort needed to perform drills (like adding a jump in between each and every single kick, like that...).

The above is my experience.  Get a guy who came up in high school wrestling, and they'd probably have a much different opinion.


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## Tony Dismukes

JMulford said:


> (1). I know it's not unusual to cross-train sports but if a class is 6-7 and the next class is 7-8, would it be inappropriate or unusual to duck into the later class as soon as you can(after the other class ends of course)?


Nothing wrong with that at all. I always like seeing students do that.



JMulford said:


> (2). How much should I consider lineage? For example, a BJJ instructor I have the choice of got his BB from Pedro Sauer, who got his from Rickson Gracies. That's a pretty direct link to the Gracie family. Is that something to strongly consider or just an added bonus or not important at all?



The only concern for lineage is to verify that the instructor is legitimate. Any legit BJJ black belt can tell you his lineage, typically back all the way to Mitsuo Maeda. Most of them go through the Gracie family at some point, although there is also an Oswaldo Fadda lineage which is just as valid. All three of the schools you listed have instructors with legitimate pedigrees. (Full disclosure - Mike Patt, the head instructor at Dayton MMA, was my first regular BJJ instructor before I moved out of town.)



JMulford said:


> (3). I watched some video footage of the Judo place I was looking at and noticed them rolling in a few of the scenes. From what I have read, it seems that this is something a lot of people would appreciate from their Judo class but don't get all of the time. Is this a big plus or more of a personal preference thing?



Big plus.



JMulford said:


> (4). This is probably a personal opinion but I'd still like to hear them. Do you consider BJJ or Judo a better physical workout in terms of cardio and overall body work? I am still considering cross-training Kickboxing but I kind of expect that to be the heaviest workout in terms of cardio, although I readily admit that I could be wrong since I don't really know anything.



The biggest difference comes down to the individual instructor and how they run class. A class aimed at developing champion competitors will be a lot harder than a class aimed at casual hobbyists. All other factors being equal, I consider Judo to be the most demanding in terms of conditioning. I should note, however, that grappling and striking typically work different energy systems, so one person might be able to handle kickboxing class easily and gas out quickly in BJJ while another person might be the reverse. It depends on what you're used to.


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## Gerry Seymour

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Irecommend kenpo kickboxing


That's not even on his list.


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## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> Are you referring to two classes at the same place? If so, they probably have it set up that way so that you can do exacrtly that! If it's two different places, it wouldnt be rude to cross train, but being consistently late will probably start annoying them.
> 
> Lineage is nice, but in reality not that important. If a person is focusing too much on his lineage and not enough on what he can do, that might be an issue. If an instructor is hidign his lineage, that also might be an issue. Otherwise it doesn't really matter.
> 
> You absolutely do want a place that rolls. That's a large portion of Judo, and the schools that neglect it are neglecting a part of the curriculum. Definitely a big plus. (Plus, rolling is hella fun)
> 
> 
> 
> The answer you will probably hear is that grappling is the better workout. However, I don't necessarily think thats true. They both work out different muscle groups, and when you start with grappling you will be using a lot of energy to make up for your lack of technique, so you will be exhausted from about 15 seconds in. And a lot of striking places will ignore cardio because 'it isn't as important as technique'. However, if the kickboxing place goes hard on the cardio (even just making you do multiple 3 minute rounds in a row), and the judo/bjj place has you doing randori or rolling fairly often, then both will get you a pretty good workout.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, which are the 3 schools you've narrowed it down to?


To the OP: I'll toss in that which school is the better workout (from those originally mentioned) will depend more upon the school than the art. I've seen Judo schools that were somewhat docile most of the time, and I've seen Judo schools that were quite vigorous most of the time. I assume the same could be found in BJJ, or nearly any other art.


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## Tames D

gpseymour said:


> That's not even on his list.


I think he forgot to insert the backslash.
Main - Tama Martial Arts Center - Kenpo/Kickboxing


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## WaterGal

JMulford said:


> (2). How much should I consider lineage? For example, a BJJ instructor I have the choice of got his BB from Pedro Sauer, who got his from Rickson Gracies. That's a pretty direct link to the Gracie family. Is that something to strongly consider or just an added bonus or not important at all?



Others may be able to offer more insight into this, but my understanding is that Pedro Sauer has a affiliate program where other schools with lower-ranking instructors can, like, pay him to go to their school to do seminars and test the students.  (There's a place near me that's a Sauer affiliate, and from what I've heard, the owner there trained at another local school, not with Sauer himself.)  The guy you're talking about may have gotten his _belt _from Sauer, but that doesn't mean that he trained very much with Sauer.  Which doesn't mean he's not good!   He might be great!  And he might _have _actually trained at Sauer's school, I don't know.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is - don't assume that just because Pedro Sauer tested him for his black belt, that he's automatically a better practitioner or a better instructor than the teachers at the other schools.  Go and see for yourself.


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## JMulford

WaterGal said:


> Others may be able to offer more insight into this, but my understanding is that Pedro Sauer has a affiliate program where other schools with lower-ranking instructors can, like, pay him to go to their school to do seminars and test the students.  (There's a place near me that's a Sauer affiliate, and from what I've heard, the owner there trained at another local school, not with Sauer himself.)  The guy you're talking about may have gotten his _belt _from Sauer, but that doesn't mean that he trained very much with Sauer.  Which doesn't mean he's not good!   He might be great!  And he might _have _actually trained at Sauer's school, I don't know.
> 
> Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is - don't assume that just because Pedro Sauer tested him for his black belt, that he's automatically a better practitioner or a better instructor than the teachers at the other schools.  Go and see for yourself.



Very good point and one I hadn't really considered in the case of a person's lineage. Definitely something to consider. In the case of Matt Strack, it seems that he moved out to Utah(if I recall correctly) for something like 9 years to train directly with Sauer, so it seems that a good portion of his BJJ training has come under Sauer. 

Overall though, your point is well taken. I could have trained in boxing under Ali and it doesn't mean that I'm a good boxing coach. I will definitely check him out in person and form an opinion.


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## KenpoMaster805

gpseymour said:


> That's not even on his list.


Main - Tama Martial Arts Center - Kenpo/Kickboxing

really now its on his list


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Main - Tama Martial Arts Center - Kenpo/Kickboxing
> 
> really now its on his list


You still haven't stated why you think that's a better choice. Which of the goals that he listed does kenpo/kickboxing provide better than the other options, or why is that kenpo/kickboxing school superior to his other options?


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## JMulford

I appreciate all of the advice everyone. Just one more thing.

I have narrowed it down to two schools. I will tell you the specifics on each and then offer my last question.

SOMA BJJ -

I could attend 4 instructional classes a week and 4 open mats if my schedule works out as planned.
$99 a month
Good feeling about instructor and he learned from one of the best(Pedro Sauer)
5 minutes from house

Dayton MMA Academy

This would offer me the two arts I am interested in
I could attend 5 BJJ classes and 2 kickboxing classes a week if my schedule works out as planned
$130 a month for the two arts
Placed 3rd the other day as a team in NAGA Cincy Gi and No-Gi
20 minutes from house

Obviously Dayton MMA has a slight advantage in that it offers my two arts but I also would like to stay healthy, so that's where my final question lies.

For those of you that are either around my age(37 and 38 in June), do you think doing the two arts is too much? Especially in a back to back setting? In your opinion, should I just solely focus on the BJJ? I would love to do both but not at the risk of completely overtraining my body and cutting my time short. I consider myself an above average athlete at my age(or I always have been and am slowly rounding back into shape) but certainly not a high-level athlete like some that I see.

I'm solely searching for opinions here. I know that no one can give me the complete answer other than myself. You guys have been very helpful thus far, so anymore insight will be much appreciated.


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## Tony Dismukes

JMulford said:


> I appreciate all of the advice everyone. Just one more thing.
> 
> I have narrowed it down to two schools. I will tell you the specifics on each and then offer my last question.
> 
> SOMA BJJ -
> 
> I could attend 4 instructional classes a week and 4 open mats if my schedule works out as planned.
> $99 a month
> Good feeling about instructor and he learned from one of the best(Pedro Sauer)
> 5 minutes from house
> 
> Dayton MMA Academy
> 
> This would offer me the two arts I am interested in
> I could attend 5 BJJ classes and 2 kickboxing classes a week if my schedule works out as planned
> $130 a month for the two arts
> Placed 3rd the other day as a team in NAGA Cincy Gi and No-Gi
> 20 minutes from house
> 
> Obviously Dayton MMA has a slight advantage in that it offers my two arts but I also would like to stay healthy, so that's where my final question lies.
> 
> For those of you that are either around my age(37 and 38 in June), do you think doing the two arts is too much? Especially in a back to back setting? In your opinion, should I just solely focus on the BJJ? I would love to do both but not at the risk of completely overtraining my body and cutting my time short. I consider myself an above average athlete at my age(or I always have been and am slowly rounding back into shape) but certainly not a high-level athlete like some that I see.
> 
> I'm solely searching for opinions here. I know that no one can give me the complete answer other than myself. You guys have been very helpful thus far, so anymore insight will be much appreciated.


I'm 52 years old, never a great athlete, and I train both BJJ and kickboxing (actually several striking arts). It shouldn't be a problem.

What is more of an issue in terms of training is the total weekly training time and intensity. If you attend 2 BJJ and 2 kickboxing sessions in a week that isn't necessarily any rougher on your body than attending 4 BJJ sessions in a week. (You will progress more slowly in each individual art because you are dividing your available time between them, but you'll be a more well-rounded martial artist overall so your priorities determine whether that's a good tradeoff.)

I would be cautious about jumping in to 4-5 classes in your first week unless you are already in very good shape. You're going to be sore in muscles you didn't know you had for a while (especially with BJJ), so you might want to start out with 2-3 classes your first week and build up from there based on what your body tells you.

Both the schools you listed should be fine choices. Before making a decision I would visit both and see which has the atmosphere and teaching style which suits you best.


----------



## Headhunter

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Irecommend kenpo kickboxing


Kenpo kickboxing? That's 2 different styles. If anyone offers something like that it sounds more like a moneymaking thing and the instructor may have brief training in both styles and just put the name together that's my experience with that kind of thing


----------



## Dylan9d

I had a look at the Dayton Kali Academy and it looks like it all comes from Dan Inosanto.

Thats not a bad thing because Dan Inosanto had solid Kali and Silat training ofcourse but there is one thing thats a bit strange:


> *Cimande*
> An old Indonesian village and river bed martial art. This class will focus on bone conditioning.
> **Instructor approval required to take this class**



Cimande is so much more than bone conditioning, so I think the instructor is trying to sell Cimande but he doesn't know enough about the system to teach it in full


----------



## Midnight-shadow

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm 52 years old, never a great athlete, and I train both BJJ and kickboxing (actually several striking arts). It shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> What is more of an issue in terms of training is the total weekly training time and intensity. If you attend 2 BJJ and 2 kickboxing sessions in a week that isn't necessarily any rougher on your body than attending 4 BJJ sessions in a week. (You will progress more slowly in each individual art because you are dividing your available time between them, but you'll be a more well-rounded martial artist overall so your priorities determine whether that's a good tradeoff.)
> 
> I would be cautious about jumping in to 4-5 classes in your first week unless you are already in very good shape. You're going to be sore in muscles you didn't know you had for a while (especially with BJJ), so you might want to start out with 2-3 classes your first week and build up from there based on what your body tells you.
> 
> Both the schools you listed should be fine choices. Before making a decision I would visit both and see which has the atmosphere and teaching style which suits you best.



Completely agree with this. When I first started my Kungfu training (which is a lot gentler of a workout than bjj or kickboxing) I went straight into doing 4 hours of training a week. This was a bad idea as my body wasn't prepared for it and as a result I tore my hamstring from overuse. 

My advice would be to start off with an hour a week and build it up once your body gets used to it more.


----------



## JMulford

Hey everyone,

Got delayed a bit due to a hernia surgery, which caused me to miss over a month of work, and obviously didn't allow me to get started with this.

I go in to speak to a guy today. Pretty excited. I do have a question for you guys as I'm looking over what I have chosen.

I fully intend to study two arts. I want diversity, and I want to be able to learn a bit more to be a little more "complete", so to speak.

My question to you guys is that I have narrowed it down to either Kickboxing/BJJ or Kenpo/Kickboxing.

I'm not really looking for opinions on which duo to match up, as I'm sure the overwhelming favorite would be KB/BJJ but I'm curious if it's okay to train Kenpo/Kickboxing together? Or would one training dilute the other since they are both hands/feet arts?

The Kickboxing style is Muay Thai just for clarification. 

Also, keep in mind that my schedule would allow for the below involvement in each art depending on what gets matched.

Kickboxing/BJJ

KB - 3 classes(3 hours) a week
BJJ - 2 classes(4 hours) a week

Kenpo/Kickboxing

Kenpo - 3 classes(4 hours) a week
KB - 2-3 classes(2-3 hours) a week

Any input is appreciated. Looking forward to finally starting this journey.


----------



## Ironbear24

JMulford said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Got delayed a bit due to a hernia surgery, which caused me to miss over a month of work, and obviously didn't allow me to get started with this.
> 
> I go in to speak to a guy today. Pretty excited. I do have a question for you guys as I'm looking over what I have chosen.
> 
> I fully intend to study two arts. I want diversity, and I want to be able to learn a bit more to be a little more "complete", so to speak.
> 
> My question to you guys is that I have narrowed it down to either Kickboxing/BJJ or Kenpo/Kickboxing.
> 
> I'm not really looking for opinions on which duo to match up, as I'm sure the overwhelming favorite would be KB/BJJ but I'm curious if it's okay to train Kenpo/Kickboxing together? Or would one training dilute the other since they are both hands/feet arts?
> 
> Also, keep in mind that my schedule would allow for the below involvement in each art depending on what gets matched.
> 
> Kickboxing/BJJ
> 
> KB - 3 classes(3 hours) a week
> BJJ - 2 classes(4 hours) a week
> 
> Kenpo/Kickboxing
> 
> Kenpo - 3 classes(4 hours) a week
> KB - 2-3 classes(2-3 hours) a week
> 
> Any input is appreciated. Looking forward to finally starting this journey.



I actually wouldn't recommend you begin with two arts at the same time. Also which form kenpo karate is it?


----------



## JMulford

Ironbear24 said:


> I actually wouldn't recommend you begin with two arts at the same time. Also which form kenpo karate is it?



Without sounding like I actually have any idea what I'm talking about, I'll link it. I guess it's a bit of a hybrid that he put together. I know that's often frowned upon but his background and reputation are pretty good. He also has weekly sparring in his various arts, so you get a chance to actually apply some things. It's probably not Kenpo in the truest of forms if I were to guess, but of course I am completely new, so I can't say much about it. 

Kempo Karate Jujitsu - Tama Martial Arts Center

I'll obviously take a look into things myself before deciding what exactly is for me. As for not doing two arts, I may very well just start for one for a bit but the long goal is two.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JMulford said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Got delayed a bit due to a hernia surgery, which caused me to miss over a month of work, and obviously didn't allow me to get started with this.
> 
> I go in to speak to a guy today. Pretty excited. I do have a question for you guys as I'm looking over what I have chosen.
> 
> I fully intend to study two arts. I want diversity, and I want to be able to learn a bit more to be a little more "complete", so to speak.
> 
> My question to you guys is that I have narrowed it down to either Kickboxing/BJJ or Kenpo/Kickboxing.
> 
> I'm not really looking for opinions on which duo to match up, as I'm sure the overwhelming favorite would be KB/BJJ but I'm curious if it's okay to train Kenpo/Kickboxing together? Or would one training dilute the other since they are both hands/feet arts?
> 
> The Kickboxing style is Muay Thai just for clarification.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that my schedule would allow for the below involvement in each art depending on what gets matched.
> 
> Kickboxing/BJJ
> 
> KB - 3 classes(3 hours) a week
> BJJ - 2 classes(4 hours) a week
> 
> Kenpo/Kickboxing
> 
> Kenpo - 3 classes(4 hours) a week
> KB - 2-3 classes(2-3 hours) a week
> 
> Any input is appreciated. Looking forward to finally starting this journey.


One of my kempo places was actually a place that taught kempo and kickboxing, it helped me a lot in terms of applying my kempo. There shouldn't be an issue with that.

I'm going to second the idea that you don't need to do two arts. Are you going to be doing this competitively, and if so what format? If not, I would recommend sticking with one art and just focusing on that for a while, otherwise it might be too much information at once especially at the beginning.


----------



## JMulford

kempodisciple said:


> One of my kempo places was actually a place that taught kempo and kickboxing, it helped me a lot in terms of applying my kempo. There shouldn't be an issue with that.
> 
> I'm going to second the idea that you don't need to do two arts. Are you going to be doing this competitively, and if so what format? If not, I would recommend sticking with one art and just focusing on that for a while, otherwise it might be too much information at once especially at the beginning.



I'm competitive by nature but too old to get into serious competition I suspect. I'm definitely interested in sparring however.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

I'm going to weigh in and say, while you don't need 2 arts, there may be a good argument for it. It's an argument you should like: because you want to. You'll probably progress more slowly at first if you start 2 arts at once, but if doing 2 feels good and keeps you interested, then it might be a good thing. I've had students who studied 2 arts at once, and they seem to struggle a bit at first, so it might be worth delaying one while you get a grip on the other.

Unless you just want to do both at once, in which case - go get 'em!


----------



## Ironbear24

JMulford said:


> I guess it's a bit of a hybrid that he put together. I know that's often frowned



No it isn't.



JMulford said:


> It's probably not Kenpo in the truest of forms if I were to guess, but of course I am completely new, so I can't say much about it



There isn't really a such thing as true kenpo. The thing about kenpo is itself began as a hybrid art coming from various Chinese arts and shorin ryu karate along with Judo. Every kenpo dojo I have visited has been a hybrid art that focuses on rapid striking, with a more or less even combination of hands strikes and kicks/knees along with throws/takedowns.

I don't really know the individuals in mentioned but honestly I've never been one to trace lineages and nit pick family trees. This sounds like good Kenpo, because it seems to carry on the tradition of being hybrid.

I say go right now and take a trail lesson


----------



## Ironbear24

gpseymour said:


> I'm going to weigh in and say, while you don't need 2 arts, there may be a good argument for it. It's an argument you should like: because you want to. You'll probably progress more slowly at first if you start 2 arts at once, but if doing 2 feels good and keeps you interested, then it might be a good thing. I've had students who studied 2 arts at once, and they seem to struggle a bit at first, so it might be worth delaying one while you get a grip on the other.
> 
> Unless you just want to do both at once, in which case - go get 'em!



Well it's not two arts though. It's a hybrid art.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Ironbear24 said:


> Well it's not two arts though. It's a hybrid art.


He asked about studying two arts. (post #32)


----------



## lklawson

JMulford said:


> Kempo Karate Jujitsu - Tama Martial Arts Center


Unique?






BTW, I'm in Huber.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

lklawson said:


> Unique?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I'm in Huber.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I don't know what other styles it shows up in, but that's the same as NGA's "Cross-Arms Throw".


----------



## Ironbear24

Guys, unique or not. It seems like good training. I honestly would love to check this place out myself but you know, it's too far.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

JMulford said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Got delayed a bit due to a hernia surgery, which caused me to miss over a month of work, and obviously didn't allow me to get started with this.
> 
> I go in to speak to a guy today. Pretty excited. I do have a question for you guys as I'm looking over what I have chosen.
> 
> I fully intend to study two arts. I want diversity, and I want to be able to learn a bit more to be a little more "complete", so to speak.
> 
> My question to you guys is that I have narrowed it down to either Kickboxing/BJJ or Kenpo/Kickboxing.
> 
> I'm not really looking for opinions on which duo to match up, as I'm sure the overwhelming favorite would be KB/BJJ but I'm curious if it's okay to train Kenpo/Kickboxing together? Or would one training dilute the other since they are both hands/feet arts?
> 
> The Kickboxing style is Muay Thai just for clarification.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that my schedule would allow for the below involvement in each art depending on what gets matched.
> 
> Kickboxing/BJJ
> 
> KB - 3 classes(3 hours) a week
> BJJ - 2 classes(4 hours) a week
> 
> Kenpo/Kickboxing
> 
> Kenpo - 3 classes(4 hours) a week
> KB - 2-3 classes(2-3 hours) a week
> 
> Any input is appreciated. Looking forward to finally starting this journey.


I think you'll get better synergy with the MT/BJJ combination than with KB/Kenpo, but that's just my opinion. 

Which school were you considering for MT/BJJ?


----------



## lklawson

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think you'll get better synergy with the MT/BJJ combination than with KB/Kenpo, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> Which school were you considering for MT/BJJ?


Probably still Tama.

Makes sense that he might want to stay at the same school.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tony Dismukes

lklawson said:


> Probably still Tama.
> 
> Makes sense that he might want to stay at the same school.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I wouldn't go to TAMA for BJJ. To the best of my knowledge, Taningco isn't a qualified instructor in BJJ.


----------



## JMulford

Ironbear24 said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> There isn't really a such thing as true kenpo. The thing about kenpo is itself began as a hybrid art coming from various Chinese arts and shorin ryu karate along with Judo. Every kenpo dojo I have visited has been a hybrid art that focuses on rapid striking, with a more or less even combination of hands strikes and kicks/knees along with throws/takedowns.
> 
> I don't really know the individuals in mentioned but honestly I've never been one to trace lineages and nit pick family trees. This sounds like good Kenpo, because it seems to carry on the tradition of being hybrid.
> 
> I say go right now and take a trail lesson




Thanks for the response. I try to word what I say without acting like I know what I'm talking about, because I don't. Your response gave me good insight. Thank you and thanks to everyone else responding.


----------



## JMulford

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wouldn't go to TAMA for BJJ. To the best of my knowledge, Taningco isn't a qualified instructor in BJJ.



He's not the BJJ Trainer. It's a guy named JR Reynolds, who it looks like trains from a Rickson Gracie lineage. I haven't researched him much but it looks as though he may have gotten his black belt from Luiz Palhares, who trained under Rickson mainly, from what I've read at least. 

I think Taningco teaches the Muay Thai and Kenpo, but has other instructors that are certified for the other arts.


----------



## JMulford

lklawson said:


> Probably still Tama.
> 
> Makes sense that he might want to stay at the same school.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Yeah, I would stay with the same school because it would be much easier to set a schedule and keep it steady.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think you'll get better synergy with the MT/BJJ combination than with KB/Kenpo, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> Which school were you considering for MT/BJJ?


I'd say that's a reasonable assertion. I don't know what the synergy is between KB and Kempo would be, but we have plenty of evidence that MT and BJJ work well together.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

JMulford said:


> He's not the BJJ Trainer. It's a guy named JR Reynolds, who it looks like trains from a Rickson Gracie lineage. I haven't researched him much but it looks as though he may have gotten his black belt from Luiz Palhares, who trained under Rickson mainly, from what I've read at least.


Okay, I don't know anything about him and can't find much online. Last year he was competing as a purple belt, so he's probably not a black belt at this point unless he's gotten promoted twice since then. (Which is just barely possible - as of February 2016 he was a 4-stripe purple belt, so he could have gotten his brown immediately after that and then gotten his black belt within the last month or so.)

You can find significantly higher level BJJ elsewhere in Dayton, but Reynolds looks like he should be qualified to instruct at least.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I don't know anything about him and can't find much online. Last year he was competing as a purple belt, so he's probably not a black belt at this point unless he's gotten promoted twice since then. (Which is just barely possible - as of February 2016 he was a 4-stripe purple belt, so he could have gotten his brown immediately after that and then gotten his black belt within the last month or so.)
> 
> You can find significantly higher level BJJ elsewhere in Dayton, but Reynolds looks like he should be qualified to instruct at least.


Slight swerve, but still somewhat on-topic:

I'd like to get your input on an impression I've developed about BJJ ranks and instruction. From what I've seen (and you'll know better than I), a purple belt is plenty for the beginner to learn under. Probably good enough for the blue belt, too, as long as the instructor's not a brand new purple belt, so he has his brown before the student gets to purple. By purple, though, I think the student gains a lot by training under a black belt.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> Slight swerve, but still somewhat on-topic:
> 
> I'd like to get your input on an impression I've developed about BJJ ranks and instruction. From what I've seen (and you'll know better than I), a purple belt is plenty for the beginner to learn under. Probably good enough for the blue belt, too, as long as the instructor's not a brand new purple belt, so he has his brown before the student gets to purple. By purple, though, I think the student gains a lot by training under a black belt.


In general, that's correct. There are exception - sometimes you find a purple belt who moves well enough to be promoted but doesn't have the intellectual understanding to explain what they are doing - but in most cases a purple belt should be able to teach a beginners class.


----------



## Buka

I'd like to add what Tony said, if I may. Speaking as a grappling hack, but an experienced grappling hack - I have, and will, train under a BJJ purple belt any day. (if he can teach even a little)


----------



## JMulford

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, I don't know anything about him and can't find much online. Last year he was competing as a purple belt, so he's probably not a black belt at this point unless he's gotten promoted twice since then. (Which is just barely possible - as of February 2016 he was a 4-stripe purple belt, so he could have gotten his brown immediately after that and then gotten his black belt within the last month or so.)
> 
> You can find significantly higher level BJJ elsewhere in Dayton, but Reynolds looks like he should be qualified to instruct at least.



Gotcha. I think I wrote black belt without thinking about it. From what I've seen in local competitions, his team seems to do okay, for what it's worth. I know Michael Patt and Jorge Gurgel are probably the two highest regarded BJJ guys in the area.


----------



## JMulford

Alright, I have officially signed up to start my journey. They offer two free 1-on-1 sessions and a group lesson for the Kenpo, so I set up my first 1-on-1 there for Thursday afternoon. 

They offer two free weeks of the other styles, so I will attend the MT class tomorrow night and probably be exhausted afterwards. 

Looking forward to it. I appreciate all of the responses to my questions through the past few months. Thanks!


----------



## JR 137

JMulford said:


> Alright, I have officially signed up to start my journey. They offer two free 1-on-1 sessions and a group lesson for the Kenpo, so I set up my first 1-on-1 there for Thursday afternoon.
> 
> They offer two free weeks of the other styles, so I will attend the MT class tomorrow night and probably be exhausted afterwards.
> 
> Looking forward to it. I appreciate all of the responses to my questions through the past few months. Thanks!


Only one thing left to do...
To tell us how it went


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JMulford said:


> Alright, I have officially signed up to start my journey. They offer two free 1-on-1 sessions and a group lesson for the Kenpo, so I set up my first 1-on-1 there for Thursday afternoon.
> 
> They offer two free weeks of the other styles, so I will attend the MT class tomorrow night and probably be exhausted afterwards.
> 
> Looking forward to it. I appreciate all of the responses to my questions through the past few months. Thanks!


Congratulations! If you show up for the first lesson, you'll have surpassed what the majority of people do who are interested in martial arts.


----------



## JMulford

lklawson said:


> Unique?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I'm in Huber.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Where do you train at, or do you actually teach? Huber is far enough away that I couldn't do that trip every week(or wouldn't want to at least), but once I move along in my training I would love the idea of dropping in here and there when the time and place allows. 

I'm a believer in learning every chance you get whether it's martial arts, math, or anything someone is passionate about.


----------



## lklawson

JMulford said:


> Where do you train at, or do you actually teach? Huber is far enough away that I couldn't do that trip every week(or wouldn't want to at least), but once I move along in my training I would love the idea of dropping in here and there when the time and place allows.
> 
> I'm a believer in learning every chance you get whether it's martial arts, math, or anything someone is passionate about.


I teach Judo through Bob Spraley's "Juido" system up in Troy at the Y on Mondays and Wednesday's, and I teach martial arts of Western Civ. (bowie knife, bartitsu, pugilism, tomahawk, irish stick etc.) on Tuesday evenings.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JMulford

Tired. So tired. Haha. 

Fun class. Really enjoyed myself. The warm-up itself kicked my butt. I felt like I did okay in the drills. We focused on mostly punching tonight and I have been a huge boxing fan my whole life, so I have a pretty good understanding of the basics when it comes to punching. Implementing them is obviously the skill I need to learn. I did fairly well I thought. 

The stamina though? Yeah, that needs some work.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tired and laughing about it. You sound like one of us.


----------



## JMulford

gpseymour said:


> Tired and laughing about it. You sound like one of us.



Haha. Hopefully one day. About all I am right now is a guy who needs to find a tub to soak in. I've got my first Kenpo lesson tomorrow(a 1-on-1) and if my body allows me, I'll also have a kickboxing class later in the evening.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JMulford said:


> Haha. Hopefully one day. About all I am right now is a guy who needs to find a tub to soak in. I've got my first Kenpo lesson tomorrow(a 1-on-1) and if my body allows me, I'll also have a kickboxing class later in the evening.


That's a lot of "new" in one week. You're going to need a bigger tub, my friend!


----------



## JMulford

gpseymour said:


> That's a lot of "new" in one week. You're going to need a bigger tub, my friend!



Agreed. I'm definitely playing it by ear so to speak as far as what my body can handle. While fairly sore today, I'm not quite as sore as expected. Of course, sometimes the second day is worse so we'll see. I might check out the morning kickboxing class tomorrow instead since that is the one I'll more often be taking those lessons in.


----------



## Ironbear24

gpseymour said:


> Congratulations! If you show up for the first lesson, you'll have surpassed what the majority of people do who are interested in martial arts.



That reminds that guy who for like 8 months kept asking which art he should take, would judge styles based on only youtube videos and in the end never trained in any art at all.



JMulford said:


> Agreed. I'm definitely playing it by ear so to speak as far as what my body can handle. While fairly sore today, I'm not quite as sore as expected. Of course, sometimes the second day is worse so we'll see. I might check out the morning kickboxing class tomorrow instead since that is the one I'll more often be taking those lessons in.



Which place did you end up going to?


----------



## JMulford

Ironbear24 said:


> Which place did you end up going to?



I ended up going with TAMA. I liked the environment and the options that they offered, both in arts and schedule. 

I actually had reached out to one closer to home but after initially responding to me, he didn't respond to my second call. I'm sure considering the amount of people who call and never come in like you guys say, he probably thought I was just another one of those guys but it was enough to me to go with option 1b. 

It's about 15 minutes further away but my first impression was very good. The atmosphere is serious about the arts but loose enough to where anyone can fall right in. 

The funny thing about my soreness today is that the sorest part of me is my butt from doing a combined 150 sit-up on the wood floor. I'll just say that my sit-up game is not strong yet. 

Looking forward to the Kenpo instruction tomorrow.


----------



## JMulford

Well, my body has hit a pretty good soreness level two days later. I think I'm going to skip the MT class I wanted to attend today and just do my 1-on-1 Kenpo appointment. Then I'll be able to rest through the weekend and get back at it. 

Just like going back to the gym after a long time away and lifting heavy, I assume after a few classes, my body will start to catch up. I see no reason to overdo it early, as many of you have already stated.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JMulford said:


> Well, my body has hit a pretty good soreness level two days later. I think I'm going to skip the MT class I wanted to attend today and just do my 1-on-1 Kenpo appointment. Then I'll be able to rest through the weekend and get back at it.
> 
> Just like going back to the gym after a long time away and lifting heavy, I assume after a few classes, my body will start to catch up. I see no reason to overdo it early, as many of you have already stated.


Yes, the soreness is pretty much normal early on, in vigorous classes. Remember that light exercise will help ease the soreness more quickly.


----------



## lklawson

JMulford said:


> Well, my body has hit a pretty good soreness level two days later. I think I'm going to skip the MT class I wanted to attend today and just do my 1-on-1 Kenpo appointment. Then I'll be able to rest through the weekend and get back at it.
> 
> Just like going back to the gym after a long time away and lifting heavy, I assume after a few classes, my body will start to catch up. I see no reason to overdo it early, as many of you have already stated.


Take cold showers or baths immediately after your workouts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

lklawson said:


> Take cold showers or baths immediately after your workouts.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


That's one I'm not familiar with. I'm not sure I care if it helps, either. I REALLY like my warm showers after exercise. :: old man grumble ::

Seriously, though, what's the physiology in that, Kirk?


----------



## JMulford

lklawson said:


> Take cold showers or baths immediately after your workouts.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I'm definitely going to give this a shot. Thanks.


----------



## lklawson

gpseymour said:


> That's one I'm not familiar with. I'm not sure I care if it helps, either. I REALLY like my warm showers after exercise. :: old man grumble ::
> 
> Seriously, though, what's the physiology in that, Kirk?


It's basically like icing down the sore muscle.  Only you're cooling it all down.  In fact, ice baths are very popular with modern sports trainers.

On top of that, several studies have found other benefits from what is sometimes referred to as "cold water dousing."  This includes an increase in immune response and increases in serotonin and positive benefits to depression and anxiety.  Most of it is available off a google but I used to have a list of studies and references.

FWIW, "cold water" ceremonies, and suggestions of health and spiritual benefits exist in most cultures which have access to quantities of cold water.  Russians and Scandinavians were known for winter swimming, Greek Hoplite culture was known to encourage winter river swimming, and, of course, there are various references to Zen waterfall rituals.

I'll see if I can find my references somewhere.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> That's one I'm not familiar with. I'm not sure I care if it helps, either. I REALLY like my warm showers after exercise. :: old man grumble ::
> 
> Seriously, though, what's the physiology in that, Kirk?


It's like icing a specific spot for an injury, only icing your entire body.

Slows down blood flow, thereby decreasing the inflammatory response.  In the sports medicine/athletic training room, athletes typically go into the cold whirlpool (about 45-50 degrees F) for 10-15 minutes after a hard workout.  Some people go colder.

I had a guy who'd regularly get the water down to almost 30 degrees and sit in there up to his chin for 8 minutes during preseason soccer.  Ever see a Japanese guy turn purple?  That guy was out of his mind.

Just to add, recent studies have show cold whirlpool baths to convert white fat into brown fat.  Not a night and day difference, but enough to say so.  Brown fat is good, white fat is bad.


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> It's like icing a specific spot for an injury, only icing your entire body.
> 
> Slows down blood flow, thereby decreasing the inflammatory response.  In the sports medicine/athletic training room, athletes typically go into the cold whirlpool (about 45-50 degrees F) for 10-15 minutes after a hard workout.  Some people go colder.
> 
> I had a guy who'd regularly get the water down to almost 30 degrees and sit in there up to his chin for 8 minutes during preseason soccer.  Ever see a Japanese guy turn purple?  That guy was out of his mind.
> 
> Just to add, recent studies have show cold whirlpool baths to convert white fat into brown fat.  Not a night and day difference, but enough to say so.  Brown fat is good, white fat is bad.


Great, now you're giving me science that says I should take cold showers/baths. I don't like you any more. :: 5-year-old pout ::


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## JMulford

gpseymour said:


> Great, now you're giving me science that says I should take cold showers/baths. I don't like you any more. :: 5-year-old pout ::



I'm definitely in your camp when it comes to warm showers/baths but I'll definitely give this a shot and see if it helps and if I can handle it.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> Great, now you're giving me science that says I should take cold showers/baths. I don't like you any more. :: 5-year-old pout ::


I haven't seen any studies about cold showering, so you're off the hook.  I'd assume immersion in water would be more consistent to study than showering.


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## JR 137

I've never been in the cold whirlpool after working out, so I have no personal insight.  I used to use the hot tub at the Y after hard workouts.  I felt a lot better later on, and especially the next day.  The days I didn't have time to do it, I definitely felt like I was dragging the next day.  My legs were so much more tired all day.

I've got a plan to work out pretty hard this summer.  I'm a school teacher, so I've got the time.  Of course that depends on how high maintenance my wife and daughters will be.  I'll fill up the bath tub with cold water as a little science experiment.  Gotta get a thermometer to make it consistent and all scientifical.  Maybe hit up Babies R Us for a fun one


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> Great, now you're giving me science that says I should take cold showers/baths. I don't like you any more. :: 5-year-old pout ::


That implies you liked me before.  Thanks, I needed that


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> I've never been in the cold whirlpool after working out, so I have no personal insight.  I used to use the hot tub at the Y after hard workouts.  I felt a lot better later on, and especially the next day.  The days I didn't have time to do it, I definitely felt like I was dragging the next day.  My legs were so much more tired all day.
> 
> I've got a plan to work out pretty hard this summer.  I'm a school teacher, so I've got the time.  Of course that depends on how high maintenance my wife and daughters will be.  I'll fill up the bath tub with cold water as a little science experiment.  Gotta get a thermometer to make it consistent and all scientifical.  Maybe hit up Babies R Us for a fun one


Your experience aligns with mine. I often resort to a hot shower, at the very least, after a workout, and I feel better the next day than I do if I skip it. I'll need to look into what's out there about cold immersion (and whether a cold shower has any of the same benefits).


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> That implies you liked me before.  Thanks, I needed that


Damn, did I give that impression? Sorry.


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## JMulford

Kenpo private lesson is in the books. I really enjoyed myself. It was just a half-hour private session but being that it's basically a sample, I really took a lot away from it. 

The guy asked what I wanted to learn(self-defense, kicks/punches, etc) and I just said the basics that will get me set for class. He had a great demeanor and was easy to work with. It definitely got me excited about moving forward, so he did his job.


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## JMulford

I had my second MT class tonight. The first one was almost a week ago. Needed a little recovery time. 

Did a pretty strenuous warm-up and then started a combo drill. Stuck with that combo as the base for the night but extended it with more punches/kicks as the night went on. By the end, it was a total of 9 punches/kicks involved. Good combo but it did take me some time to get it down. In fact, I stayed after class for a half hour to continue working on it. 

Did what I thought was a pretty strenuous "cool down" to finish the night. Sit-ups/push-ups/pull-ups. At some point it will probably be second nature. Right now though? Tough. 

On a side note, I did walk away with a nicely bruised foot and an injured left hand. The foot was just the repeated bag kicking and my foot simply isn't used to that yet. No real pain - just bruised. 

The hand however, I injured it throwing the left hook. It turns out the bag I started out on tonight is the hardest one in the gym, which was told to me after about my fourth hook. I think the combination of that and probably a bit of poor form since my left is definitely my weaker hand, led to the injury. Hoping it's nothing too serious. I don't think it's broken though because I continued to throw many punches after that and I've also experienced breaks before and it didn't feel anything like that. I think I simply jarred it. 

Hopefully you guys enjoy reading this. I know most of you have been doing this stuff for years and I thought you might enjoy the view of the new guy and that it might take you back to when you started. Thanks for the support.


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## Ironbear24

JMulford said:


> It turns out the bag I started out on tonight is the hardest one in the gym, which was told to me after about my fourth hook.



I'm sorry but this made me laugh. You punch it four times and then "Oh by the way be careful with that bag it's the hardest one." Hmm maybe you could have told me that before? 

As for the bruised foot what sort of kick were you doing? What was the striking surface? If it was that large bone on the top of the foot then that will just take time to get used to. Your knuckles will be black and blue as well from not using gloves but I'll let you in on a cool tip.

Us cool guys never use gloves . Your knuckles and fists will get used to and never be bruised again after a while of doing it.


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## lklawson

JR 137 said:


> I haven't seen any studies about cold showering, so you're off the hook.  I'd assume immersion in water would be more consistent to study than showering.


Here you go:

The Effect of Cold Showering on Health and Work: A Randomized Controlled Trial
Adapted cold shower as a potential treatment for depression.  - PubMed - NCBI
10 Health Benefits of Cold Showers | Guiding Instincts
Take a Cold Shower to Protect Against Colds and Flu This Winter
Are cold showers good for your immune system?
7 Reasons to Take Cold Showers and 1 That Really Matters – The Hacked Mind
https://www.fastcompany.com/3043767/the-scientific-case-for-cold-showers

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

gpseymour said:


> Your experience aligns with mine. I often resort to a hot shower, at the very least, after a workout, and I feel better the next day than I do if I skip it. I'll need to look into what's out there about cold immersion (and whether a cold shower has any of the same benefits).


Research says cold showers and cold immersion can help prevent and reduce both DOMS and near term sorness.

Cold-Water Immersion (Cryotherapy) for Preventing and Treating Muscle Soreness After Exercise
Can Water Temperature and Immersion Time Influence the Effect of Cold Water Immersion on Muscle Soreness? A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JMulford

Ironbear24 said:


> I'm sorry but this made me laugh. You punch it four times and then "Oh by the way be careful with that bag it's the hardest one." Hmm maybe you could have told me that before?
> 
> As for the bruised foot what sort of kick were you doing? What was the striking surface? If it was that large bone on the top of the foot then that will just take time to get used to. Your knuckles will be black and blue as well from not using gloves but I'll let you in on a cool tip.
> 
> Us cool guys never use gloves . Your knuckles and fists will get used to and never be bruised again after a while of doing it.



Haha, I would laugh too. The instructor for the night was a few minutes late due to sons baseball game, so someone took over and started us on a drill. One of the students next to me told me after a few shots. I imagine if the instructor was there, I probably would have been warned earlier. 

The kicks were mostly roundhouse I believe. It was the top of my foot and I have no doubt that I'll get used to it. As for my wrist/hand, it feels much better tonight and I took a Kenpo class(1-on-1 instruction), so I'm out of the woods there. I thought it was just jammed up, but you never know. 

For now I think I'll use gloves until I feel like my technique is good, but then I'll probably move away from them more often than not.


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## JR 137

lklawson said:


> Here you go:
> 
> The Effect of Cold Showering on Health and Work: A Randomized Controlled Trial
> Adapted cold shower as a potential treatment for depression.  - PubMed - NCBI
> 10 Health Benefits of Cold Showers | Guiding Instincts
> Take a Cold Shower to Protect Against Colds and Flu This Winter
> Are cold showers good for your immune system?
> 7 Reasons to Take Cold Showers and 1 That Really Matters – The Hacked Mind
> The Scientific Case For Cold Showers
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


I was saying cold showering to aid in recovery from strenuous activity.  Most of those articles discuss immunity, depression, etc., but they did mention circulation and brown fat, which is what I was pointing to with immersion.  They're not scientific studies, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume they based the articles on actual studies.  

They were quite good and bring up great points, and it also makes sense that if immersion in cold water (ice bath) brings about measured physiological responses for recovery, cold showers SHOULD do the same.  It would be interesting to see if there's a difference, which one is more effective, and how much.  With both being the same temperature, my money's on immersion.  

The last article speaks of athletes in ice baths.


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## lklawson

JR 137 said:


> I was saying cold showering to aid in recovery from strenuous activity.  Most of those articles discuss immunity, depression, etc., but they did mention circulation and brown fat, which is what I was pointing to with immersion.  They're not scientific studies, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume they based the articles on actual studies.
> 
> They were quite good and bring up great points, and it also makes sense that if immersion in cold water (ice bath) brings about measured physiological responses for recovery, cold showers SHOULD do the same.  It would be interesting to see if there's a difference, which one is more effective, and how much.  With both being the same temperature, my money's on immersion.
> 
> The last article speaks of athletes in ice baths.


You're right that readers should use care when using articles.  Track their sources.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JMulford

Officially signed up and paid for classes as of last evening. Thanks for the guidance along the way. Expect more questions down the road.


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## Gerry Seymour

JMulford said:


> Officially signed up and paid for classes as of last evening. Thanks for the guidance along the way. Expect more questions down the road.


I look forward to hearing from you along your journey. I kind of envy the start - would love to find the time/money to start a new MA journey.


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## JMulford

Another class and I banged myself up again. File this under, "I won't do that again!"

Doing front kicks on the big and I caught the top of not one, but both big toes against the bag. It was apparently amateur hour for me. The back of both toenails started bleeding after a few minutes and both toes are pretty swollen now. 

The funny thing is that it doesn't bother me too much. I guess you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk. I'm trying to embrace the negative things like this as much as the positive because you have to add them all together at the end to get the final result, so to speak. 

I definitely hope to not do that again though, lol. It does hurt.


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