# Kempo/Kenp is sub-directory of Karate?



## webpage20022003 (May 27, 2003)

i don't know much about Kempo/Kenpo history here. I always think Kemp/Kenpo is another Karate style. Why you ask?

it doesn't matter where I look at it. A word "karate" always comes after "kempo/kenpo" word such as Kenpo Karate. Can Kenpo/Kempo stands ALONE?

or this 2 words go together?

Is Kenpo/kemp a sub-directory of Karate?

anybody has any ideas why it is like that?


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## Kirk (May 27, 2003)

Far be it for a purle belt to repeat what he's heard, but I'll do it
anyway.

I _heard_ that since kenpo/kempo wasn't a familiar term,
Mr Parker called it "Kenpo Karate" so that people would know
what it was, when they saw the sign from the street, and that
he wishes he'd never have done it.

I also _heard_ Mr Sullivan say, "the origin  is Chinese, the
style is karate, the system is kenpo".


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## Sigung86 (May 27, 2003)

Depending on which school of thought you subscribe to... The Tracys call it Kenpo Karate, using the old Kanji which means "China Hand" as opposed to empty hand.  So in that particular instance it means something else, entirely.

The use of "Karate" as an early identifier is correct from the EPAK point of view.

In the original "I come to you .... etc"... The "Karate" is inserted in brackets so as to be understood or implied.  It was, apparently, not meant to be spoken, but alas, every silver lining has a cloud and Kenpo has its Karate.  :rofl:


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## Randy Strausbaugh (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> * The Tracys call it Kenpo Karate, using the old Kanji which means "China Hand" as opposed to empty hand.  So in that particular instance it means something else, entirely.*


Not just the Tracys.  Check out the kanji on the IKKA patch.  The "China Hand" characters are used there, too.:asian: 

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


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## Touch Of Death (May 27, 2003)

Karate was a word Americans were familiar with so all martial arts were understood to be a Karate. Kenpo is Ed Parker's Take on Kempo. Kempo means way of the fist. So all martial arts could infact be types of Kenpo. ie. TKD kenpo, Karate Kenpo, Aikido Kenpo ect. 
      Another related word problem is the word Hindu. There is no such religion. It was a word used to describe the many tribal religions of India, from that elephant god all the way to Shiva Destrorer of worlds; its all hindu, except to its practitioners.


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## KenpoDragon (May 27, 2003)

Ken= Hand or Fist
Po=Law

Thus Kenpo= Law of the hand or fist, not Way of the hand or fist.

Do= Way or method, look it up guys. Aikido=The way or method of harmony. Judo= The way or method gentleness/ the gentle way.

Anyways, Kenpo is derived from Chinese Kempo, taught to Mr.Parker by Professor Chow. In the chinese writing you see in many, but not all of the Kenpo patches it reads, Spirit of the dragon and the tiger, and chinese hand.

Karate= Empty Hands, a term that implies a empty handed form of self defense.

It's meaning is defined in the Kenpo Creed:

I come to with only "Karate" empty hands. I have no weapons; but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles or my honor...should it be a matter of life or death, of right or wrong, then here are my weapons, "Karate" my empty hands.

By the way the Chinese writing on the Crests/patches is a reminder of the originators of our Art-the Chinese, and represents respect, but not subservience to them. That is quoted from The Encyclopedia of Kenpo.

Hope that helps.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## Touch Of Death (May 27, 2003)

> _  Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Ken= Hand or Fist
> Po=Law
> 
> Thus Kenpo= Law of the hand or fist, not Way of the hand or fist. *



    Thanks Kenpo dragon,
you really showed me. Here I thought peoples ways were there laws. Perhaps I should alert the Ways and Means Commitee that they are completely misleading us with that tricky name of theirs.


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## Sigung86 (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Thanks Kenpo dragon,
> you really showed me. Here I thought peoples ways were there laws. Perhaps I should alert the Ways and Means Commitee that they are completely misleading us with that tricky name of theirs. *



Whyn'tcha be cool Touch... Dragon was just helping out by taking all the stuff we said,and putting it in the reference of the Parker Kenpo Dictionary.   Ain't nuthin' but a thang.

As one of my favorite Kenpoists in the world says...

Don't be haten!  :asian: 

Dan


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## KenpoDragon (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Whyn'tcha be cool Touch... Dragon was just helping out by taking all the stuff we said,and putting it in the reference of the Parker Kenpo Dictionary.   Ain't nuthin' but a thang.
> 
> As one of my favorite Kenpoists in the world says...
> ...


 Thanks Sigung86, you would think that TouchoDeath would have known that, but I guess some of us aren't as technical as others. 

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## Touch Of Death (May 28, 2003)

First of all I showed the lettering to a foreign exchange student I had a crush on in highschool an she interpreted the word to be "way". Second of all the spirit of the word is way. Law in english implies a context that is just wrong considering most martial arts of old have been practiced outside the law. Why are you being so sophist? Try looking up the word "way" I think you will find that its a pretty encompasing word.


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## KenpoDragon (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *First of all I showed the lettering to a foreign exchange student I had a crush on in highschool an she interpreted the word to be "way". Second of all the spirit of the word is way. Law in english implies a context that is just wrong considering most martial arts of old have been practiced outside the law. Why are you being so sophist? Try looking up the word "way" I think you will find that its a pretty encompasing word. *


 Alright Touch"o"Death I didn't want to embarrass you in front of all your Kenpo brothers, but you forced me too. This is a direct quote from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo.

KENPO- A modern term describing one of the more innovative systems of the Martial Arts which originally started in Hawaii, is heavily practiced in the Americas, and has now spread worldwide. KEN means fist, and PO means law. Because of Ed Parker's numerous contributions of innovative concepts and principles, many Kenpo practitioners are referring to modern day KENPO as PARKER KENPO.

Now if you don't believe me or SGM Parker than you are a complete fool. Why don't you go buy the Encyclopedia of Kenpo and stop wasting everybodies time with your I don't believe you because my ex-girlfriend said it was wrong. Do your homework before you start quoting for everyone what KENPO means. Well even though I've now embarrassed you I'm sure you'll have some snappy comeback like well my instructor said I was right too. Nah nah nah nah.


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## tonbo (May 29, 2003)

"Nah nah nah nah"?  

NOW you're getting *nasty*.......

:rofl: 

:asian: 

I like the "Don't be haten!" ref, though.... 

Peace--


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## Touch Of Death (May 29, 2003)

Well the last time I checked Ed Parker was not a biblical character. I guess that japanese girl was just messing with me or maybe she couldn't read. Damn her!


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## KenpoDragon (May 29, 2003)

Book of Kenpo: Chapter 1 vers 1, And God created Kenpo, and Kenpo was good.


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## kenpochip (May 29, 2003)

KenpoDragon said:


> Alright Touch"o"Death I didn't want to embarrass you in front of all your Kenpo brothers, but you forced me too.



I think by this point you DID want to embarrass him.  Am I right?


KenpoDragon said:


> Now if you don't believe me or SGM Parker than you are a complete fool. Why don't you go buy the Encyclopedia of Kenpo and stop wasting everybodies time with your I don't believe you because my ex-girlfriend said it was wrong. Do your homework before you start quoting for everyone what KENPO means. Well even though I've now embarrassed you I'm sure you'll have some snappy comeback like well my instructor said I was right too. Nah nah nah nah.



The "complete fool" stuff and the wasting time deal are a bit much.  Translations tend to vary.  

I think that just because some book (even the Encyclopedia of Kenpo) says something, doesn't do more than show that somebody thought it was correct.  Words often have multiple meanings.   Besides,  Mr. Parker used the word "Analyzation" in some book titles.   I personally don't think that is a word.  I believe the word is "Analysis".  I don't believe that Mr. Parker's main expertise was in the lexical realm.  

I will ask somebody who can actually read the characters what the various legitimate interpretations might be.  I don't have an opinion on that, but people ought to be able to disagree here without all the personal attacks. 

KenpoChip


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## kenpochip (May 30, 2003)

I had a Chinese person read the characters at 

http://www.kenpousa.com/ke00001.htm 
( I picked this site because the characters are large and easy to see. )

According to her:
The characters on the left side, from top to bottom mean

1.  Fist

2.  a. the way to do something

     b. the art.

     After she gave those possible meanings, I asked if it could mean "law".  She said  it could also mean law or rule (depending on context).   

3.  China

4.  Hand


On the right side, top to bottom


5.   Dragon

6.  Tiger

7.  Energy

8.  Spirit


I don't know exactly how much of the meaning translates over to the same characters for the Japanese.

KenpoChip


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## KenpoDragon (May 30, 2003)

KenpoChip, You dare call SGM Parker a BAD SPELLER!!!!! Now I'm gonna getcha!!!!!! Anyways, people's opinions of words are one thing, there actual meaning is a another thing all together. Look at the web site you posted, scroll down on the site and it clearly says KEN=FIST and PO=LAW. Now really, if you want to call KENPO- The way of your fist, then go ahead, but don't expect the rest of us to call it that. You are entitled to your opinion, but in the case of Touch"o"Death he wasn't stating his opinion, he was stating what he thought was fact. I had to correct my Kenpo brother. It wasn't out of anger, but out of trying to put him on the "right" track. Mr.Parker meant KENPO to mean LAW OF THE FIST. I'm sure if he wanted it to be called WAY OF THE FIST, then  it would be in his books that way, don't you think??? Anyways you say (TOE-MAY-TOE) I say (TAH-MAH-TOE).

 :yinyang: :asian: KenpoDragon


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## kenpochip (May 30, 2003)

I was just reporting what the person read the characters as.
I don't really have an opinion other than that the characters themselves have multiple meanings.   BTW , later, she sort of thought that the word "rule" might be better when combined with "fist".

I don't think it really matters what we call it, but now that we are on the subject....(insert drum roll here)

What does FIST LAW mean?   Are we talking about natural laws, such as "these are the natural laws through which one can use the fist"?

Or is it saying something like "I rule by my fist.  My fist is law! "

(Man, that sounds like a funny line from a karate/kung fu movie.  Maybe they can put that in the Last Dragon Sequel)
 



KenpoChip


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## KenpoDragon (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpochip _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2003)

Fistway Dragon (ha ha),
I see the gospel according to Ed Parker over rules Two different scources(women that actualy read Japanese) I guess the whole Idea of it being a way of thinking is just crazy. I will say this though, I will never purchase that encyclopedia you keep trying to push on me; so, pawn that stuff on someone else...  brother.
love sean


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## KenpoDragon (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Fistway Dragon (ha ha),
> I see the gospel according to Ed Parker over rules Two different scources(women that actualy read Japanese) I guess the whole Idea of it being a way of thinking is just crazy. I will say this though, I will never purchase that encyclopedia you keep trying to push on me; so, pawn that stuff on someone else...  brother.
> love sean *


 Well that's why you keep misunderstanding the art of Kenpo huh??? You don't have the book, now I see. Well if you don't see the infinite knowledge in one of Kenpo's greatest books, that is your loss......"brother".:shrug:


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## sammy3170 (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Alright Touch"o"Death I didn't want to embarrass you in front of all your Kenpo brothers, but you forced me too. This is a direct quote from Ed Parker's Encyclopedia of Kenpo.
> 
> KENPO- A modern term describing one of the more innovative systems of the Martial Arts which originally started in Hawaii, is heavily practiced in the Americas, and has now spread worldwide. KEN means fist, and PO means law. Because of Ed Parker's numerous contributions of innovative concepts and principles, many Kenpo practitioners are referring to modern day KENPO as PARKER KENPO.
> ...



Sorry but kenpo is not a modern day term.   It is an okinwan term as discussed earlier meaning china hand.  Mr Parker just chose the kenpo over the kempo version (both meaning exactly the same thing) but had absolutely no part in coming up with the name.  

Cheers
Sammy


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sammy3170 _
> *It is an okinwan term as discussed earlier meaning china hand.  Mr Parker just chose the kenpo over the kempo version (both meaning exactly the same thing) but had absolutely no part in coming up with the name.
> 
> Cheers
> Sammy *


Kenpo is a word from the Japanese language, not Okinawan.  While Japanese is spoken in Okinawa today, there is an Okinawan language (or dialect).  Kenpo does not mean China hand (that was the original meaning of karate, sometimes pronounced tode or toude or toudi).  Kenpo means Fist Law.  The word "po" is generally used when describing non-samurai martial traditions (i.e., ninpo).  When an art having a samurai lineage is described, the word "do" is used.  And just for fun, run the word "kempo" through the Japanese dictionary on the web.  It produces an interesting answer.:shrug: 

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


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## Kirk (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh _
> *the Japanese dictionary on the web*



Got a link?


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jun 2, 2003)

linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dict 

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


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## Matt (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoDragon _
> *Ken= Hand or Fist
> Po=Law
> 
> ...



Just a minor 'linguistic' anal retentive moment ( I apologize in advance)
In Chinese (one dialect) there are specific characters that mean
Chuan=fist
Fa=law or method
These (essentially) same charachters are used in japanese, with the same meanings, and pronounced
Ken= fist (in this case, obviously the character for 'sword' is also pronounced ken)
Ho=law or method

When combined, we get:
chuanfa

or(through some funny, yet specific grammatical rules for compound words in japanese):
Kempo 

Now, 
The old okinawan karate guys used kempo and karate sort or interchangeably, using the old "chinese hand" kara - te characters, but when Karate went to mainland Japan, the powers that be changed it to a homonym (same pronunciation, different meaning) meaning 'empty' to purge the art of its Chinese roots during a period of heavy nationalism. It's at this point in history that I feel Kempo and Karate diverged. 

When you add in '-do', (tao in chinese) you get "Way" with a capital 'W', but the method translation of 'fa/ho/po' can lead people to think in terms of 'the way to do it'.

It's really the difference in using a philosophy book or a technical manual. Big Way vs. small way. 

If you want a longer story on the history of karate, or a timeline on my branch of the kempo/kenpo tree (out of the bad, non-parker people...) go to:
www.msdcorleans.com 

and click the history button.
Sorry for the wordiness.

Matt


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jun 2, 2003)

Matt,
     Wordiness is never a problem when you have something valid to say, and you did.  Like your website, but I have one problem with your info.  You say that Professor Chow changed the word "kempo" to "kenpo".  If you check Mitose's book (which you reference on the site), you will see that all through the book he spells the word "kenpo".  In Japan, they probably just used the kanji, so the matter of spelling never came up.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


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## Matt (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Randy Strausbaugh _
> *Matt,
> Wordiness is never a problem when you have something valid to say, and you did.  Like your website, but I have one problem with your info.  You say that Professor Chow changed the word "kempo" to "kenpo".  If you check Mitose's book (which you reference on the site), you will see that all through the book he spells the word "kenpo".  In Japan, they probably just used the kanji, so the matter of spelling never came up.
> *



Thanks for the kind words. 

You are probably right on the kenpo/kempo transformation pointer, but unfortunately, I'm just the hired help. If you went to the history section, you saw my writing. The opening page text is slightly altered 'company' text. I had to shorten my kempo/kenpo timeline to subtract much of the ugliness that was not suitable for a business site. When I get a personal site up and running, I'll get the full version up again(there is a whole bunch more, and I'm still adding). Right now although I do all the coding and create some of the content, I'm stuck with some of the existing ideas as well. I'm pretty happy with the site otherwise, as it's my first try.

Matt


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

I'm afraid all your iformation including input from any asian source is negated by the Encyclopedia of Kenpo; its just the way it is. Sorry you wasted all that time.


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## Doc (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *i don't know much about Kempo/Kenpo history here. I always think Kemp/Kenpo is another Karate style. Why you ask?
> 
> it doesn't matter where I look at it. A word "karate" always comes after "kempo/kenpo" word such as Kenpo Karate. Can Kenpo/Kempo stands ALONE?
> ...


You have it backwards. "Karate" is a descendent of Kenpo. The word "Karate" has only been attached in recent history to make Kenpo marketable. Without the word "karate," no one knew what it was making the selling of the art difficult. In my small piece of the universe, the word "karate" is verbotten because it has no relation to Kenpo and was removed from our patch. Ed Parker himself hated it but was "stuck" with it for his commercial art for a variety of reasons.


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