# Self defence myths that could actually put you in danger



## Nat Stringer (Apr 26, 2016)

I just read this article on flawed self defence myths that is actually pretty good - Self Defence Myths That Could Actually Put You In Danger - read this on Urban Kombat which is my local krav maga gym

What are some other really bad pieces of advice that people have been given or overheard? There has to be heaps out there


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## mber (Apr 28, 2016)

There is a lot of bad advice out there; but I might include some of what that article mentioned as poor advise. In particular the last item on their list has definitely been recorded as working, and in a mugging scenario, is probably not going to increase your danger any more than letting the mugger have their way with you will.

I don't know if this counts as "advice" per se, but I know a lot of martial arts schools teach children the same self-defense techniques as adults under the guise of practical street defense, but many of the moves are only practical if you have the size and strength of an adult -- most children just aren't going to be able to hit that hard, and giving them the idea that they now have the ability to take down an attacker is dangerous, imho.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2016)

Martial arts in general give bad advice.  most school teach the technique and ignore the conditioning that's required to actually be able to use the technique.  The bad service comes when a person can use a self defense technique and failing to mention the training that's required to actually be able to do it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 28, 2016)

There are very few 'always' or 'never' rules that can be trusted.  Any given situation or set of circumstances has its own set of best practice guidelines.  It's very hard to come with one-size-fits-all rules for every situation.


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## Paul_D (Apr 28, 2016)

The most dangerous piece of advice I continue to hear is that you are not allowed to strike pre-emptively (in the UK) which is simply not true.

Another is “go for the leader” which just silly as it pays no attention to where he is, or where his cronies are.  Advice should be “go for whoever is nearest” ;-)


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> The most dangerous piece of advice I continue to hear is that you are not allowed to strike pre-emptively (in the UK) which is simply not true..






Sadly there are a lot of myths about our self defence law, it's surprisingly liberal. Certainly you can make a pre-emptive strike and you can use weapons.


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## Paul_D (Apr 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Sadly there are a lot of myths about our self defence law, it's surprisingly liberal. Certainly you can make a pre-emptive strike and you can use weapons.


The are indeed, which makes it all the more frustrating when people perpetuate the misconceptions.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2016)

mber said:


> in a mugging scenario, is probably not going to increase your danger any more than letting the mugger have their way with you will.


If you wear shoes, you should not mess with those who is barefoot. It depends on whether you are the person who has shoes, or you are the person who is barefoot.

When I worked in the Ideal Toy Company for night shift back in 1971, I got paid $2 per hour. At the end of the week, I got a pay check for $63. One time I had $47 dollars in my pocket, 2 guys tried to rob me in the dark street of Queens, NYC. I fought back just because I didn't want to lose my $47. Did I put myself in danger? May be I did. But if I didn't make enough money to pay my next semester tuition of $650, I could be in big trouble.

When you are in survival mode, you may look at thing differently. When you have to make choice between starve to death, or killed by knife, you will have courage to fight back.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 28, 2016)

There is one myth I like to bust for all my friends, and some gals take it pretty hard, is that, I ain't gonna jump in and save you, if you start a fight. You got that?


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2016)

Eyegouging from the bottom. If you have time to do that they were not being very serious about hurting you.

Until you eye gouged them.


And using natural reflexes. If you used natural reflexes you would not have to train useful reflexes.

Infighting as being some sort of default street fighting position. Fighting in a phone box. That is kind of the most dangerous place you can fight from unless you are unknockoutable.


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## punisher73 (Apr 28, 2016)

I'm not even sure if it is still given as advice, but I remember watching a women's self-defense seminar from someone and they told women to "pee their pants" so the attacker/rapist would just be disgusted and leave.  The issue is, we have been conditioned to NOT pee ourselves.  It may happen naturally, but in a high stress situation it's just not going to happen on purpose.


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## punisher73 (Apr 28, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There are very few 'always' or 'never' rules that can be trusted.  Any given situation or set of circumstances has its own set of best practice guidelines.  It's very hard to come with one-size-fits-all rules for every situation.



This is very true.  I have heard some questionable things and having talked to the person find out that it was exactly what they did in the situation and it worked.  Every situation is different and what may work in some, won't work in others.  Usually the best applicable advice is the pre-contact avoidance stuff.


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## Buka (Apr 28, 2016)

Myths? From Martial Arts? Naaaaaa, say it ain't so!

When I was a kid there were some corkers. _If you were a black belt you had to register your hands at the Police Station. _
Think about that. Think about the desk Sargent, the look on his face.I wonder if he gave you a form?
This was a widely accepted belief.

If you were about to get into a fight -_ you had to warn the bad guy you were a Martial Arts Expert_. (The word "expert" seemed to be important for some reason.)

If you palm heeled a guy to the nose, the nose bone was driven into the guy's brain, killing him. But this wasn't really news, everyone seemed to have heard this, believed it and openly shared it in conversation. No, seriously. Honest to God.

Karate guys always took their shoes off before they fought you. I used to watch out for that when I was ten.

We're probably due for some new myths pretty soon. Let's hope they're good ones.


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2016)

Buka said:


> Myths? From Martial Arts? Naaaaaa, say it ain't so!
> 
> When I was a kid there were some corkers. _If you were a black belt you had to register your hands at the Police Station. _
> Think about that. Think about the desk Sargent, the look on his face.I wonder if he gave you a form?
> ...



A few things...

When I started my first stint with karate about 20 years ago, an older gentleman at a family party overhead my conversation about it.  No idea who he was, I never saw him again.  He said he earned his black belt when he was stationed in Okinawa.  He said once he came back, he registered his hands and feet as lethal weapons with the police department.

A high school friend of mine left judo after getting his brown belt because he didn't want to have to register if he got his black belt.  His family owned a night club that he worked at, and wanted to avoid legal issues if someone sued because a black belt beat him up.

My college anatomy teacher showed us the part of the skull that gets pushed into the brain by martial artists (Crista Galli of the ethmoid bone).

You can't make this stuff up.


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2016)

Buka said:


> Myths? From Martial Arts? Naaaaaa, say it ain't so!
> 
> When I was a kid there were some corkers. _If you were a black belt you had to register your hands at the Police Station. _
> Think about that. Think about the desk Sargent, the look on his face.I wonder if he gave you a form?
> ...



_I have had a guy take his shoes of to fight me. _


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2016)

My favorite myth...

90% of fights go to the ground.

If you count people getting knocked down or laid out into the equation, it's still not close in my experience.  My 10 years of bartending in college bars, hanging out in college bars, plus all the other fights I've seen and have unfortunately been in don't back this up.  Not even close.  Maybe I lived in a bubble during that time.


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2016)

drop bear said:


> _I have had a guy take his shoes of to fight me. _



Did he try to hit you with them?  Knock you out with the smell?


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Did he try to hit you with them?  Knock you out with the smell?



Took them off and advanced towards me throwing cresent kicks.  From about 50 meters away. 

Cops eventually tazed him.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 29, 2016)

Buka said:


> If you palm heeled a guy to the nose, the nose bone was driven into the guy's brain, killing him. But this wasn't really news, everyone seemed to have heard this, believed it and openly shared it in conversation. No, seriously. Honest to God.
> 
> Karate guys always took their shoes off before they fought you. I used to watch out for that when I was ten.
> 
> We're probably due for some new myths pretty soon. Let's hope they're good ones.


Yeah, that is a great way to bury people's teeth into your palm.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 29, 2016)

One I've heard before is that "you have to give three warnings to your attacker before you use martial arts to defend yourself".


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## mograph (Apr 29, 2016)

Buka said:


> When I was a kid there were some corkers. _If you were a black belt you had to register your hands at the Police Station._


Yep. Myth, but with a teeny bit of history, apparently.

FightingArts.com - Martial Arts Myths and Misconceptions: Black Belts Having To Register As Deadly Weapons


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## crazydiamond (Apr 29, 2016)

mber said:


> I don't know if this counts as "advice" per se, but I know a lot of martial arts schools teach children the same self-defense techniques as adults under the guise of practical street defense, but many of the moves are only practical if you have the size and strength of an adult -- most children just aren't going to be able to hit that hard, and giving them the idea that they now have the ability to take down an attacker is dangerous, imho.



True.....My kid trains at my dojo - but size/strength differentials has come up in adult class as well.  Quite a few times my partner (or I) have said "this move does not work very well when one of us has a size difference".


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## crazydiamond (Apr 29, 2016)

punisher73 said:


> I'm not even sure if it is still given as advice, but I remember watching a women's self-defense seminar from someone and they told women to "pee their pants" so the attacker/rapist would just be disgusted and leave.  The issue is, we have been conditioned to NOT pee ourselves.  It may happen naturally, but in a high stress situation it's just not going to happen on purpose.



My wife explained when she was 19, someone was about to assault her - and she vomited all over him. He actually did get disgusted and leave.


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## Skullpunch (May 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Eyegouging from the bottom. If you have time to do that they were not being very serious about hurting you.
> 
> Until you eye gouged them.



Actually, if you know what you're doing then eye gouges become very effective.

Now, whenever I hear someone say "I don't need to know how to fight on the ground, I'll just bite/eye gouge you if you  take me down" THEN what you say definitely applies.

But if I'm at least semi-close to your skill level at positioning myself on the ground and controlling you then a timely eye gouge will be devastating.


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## punisher73 (May 2, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> My wife explained when she was 19, someone was about to assault her - and she vomited all over him. He actually did get disgusted and leave.



Didn't say it wouldn't work, like I said it may happen naturally to pee, just as your wife vomited due to the stress.  BUT, to try and teach people to vomit on command to prevent rape, I think is a very bad idea.


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## Touch Of Death (May 2, 2016)

punisher73 said:


> Didn't say it wouldn't work, like I said it may happen naturally to pee, just as your wife vomited due to the stress.  BUT, to try and teach people to vomit on command to prevent rape, I think is a very bad idea.


I have just seen, on the YouTube; so, it must be true, that rapist are looking for it to go a easily as possible; so, if fighting back isn't an option, due to age or disability, I don't see how this could be all that bad of an idea. You got any better options for those who aren't up for a fight?


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## HW1 (May 2, 2016)

"A kick/knee to the groin will stop an attacker in their tracks."

Almost every women's self-defense class teaches this. Never have I heard it discussed why the attacher might not feel it due to adrenalin dump, might get madder because it wasn't a successful hit and only delivered minimal pain, or how perpetrators might actually be aware of this super secret move that they watch out for it or wear a cup.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2016)

HW1 said:


> "A kick/knee to the groin will stop an attacker in their tracks."
> 
> Almost every women's self-defense class teaches this. Never have I heard it discussed why the attacher might not feel it due to adrenalin dump, might get madder because it wasn't a successful hit and only delivered minimal pain, or how perpetrators might actually be aware of this super secret move that they watch out for it or wear a cup.



Agreed. When I teach groin strikes, I also talk about those issues. Of course, the not-feeling-it issue could apply to almost any strike, unless you're hitting hard enough to do damage (and even then, with drugs), but it's important to note it with groin strikes since most people's perception of them is mostly related to accidental hits in non-adrenalized situations. In other words, we use them, but not as finishing moves. They actually do a decent job of getting many people to "think lower".


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## punisher73 (May 2, 2016)

HW1 said:


> "A kick/knee to the groin will stop an attacker in their tracks."
> 
> Almost every women's self-defense class teaches this. Never have I heard it discussed why the attacher might not feel it due to adrenalin dump, might get madder because it wasn't a successful hit and only delivered minimal pain, or how perpetrators might actually be aware of this super secret move that they watch out for it or wear a cup.



A girl I knew had someone corner her in a classroom building (college) on the weekend when it was mostly empty.  He tried to pull her into the bathroom after having punching her in the face and swelling her eye shut.  She kneed him in the groin and it was enough to get away.

Again, no tool works for every situation.  But, it doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option in some circumstances.  You just never know until the situation happens.


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## punisher73 (May 2, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I have just seen, on the YouTube; so, it must be true, that rapist are looking for it to go a easily as possible; so, if fighting back isn't an option, due to age or disability, I don't see how this could be all that bad of an idea. You got any better options for those who aren't up for a fight?



Again, this is partially right.  _Most _rapes aren't the stranger jumping out of a bush.  Most are "date rape" situations, or situations where the attacker is known.  

If it is a random rape attack, then they are looking for an easy target, because the motivation isn't "sex" it's about "power" using sex as the instrument of control.  

It is a bad idea because you are telling people and training them to do something that they most likely will not be able to control in a high stress situation.  Time would be MUCH better spent teaching them "basic" self-defense skills about awareness and pre-contract strategies.  Things like, not going places alone/using the buddy system.  Parking under a light to see what's around your car.  Having your keys out before walking out of the store.  If your hands are full, asking for an escort out to your car.  Not using your cellphone when walking around.  Looking in the backseat before getting in.  Locking your doors as soon as you get in.  List goes on and on.  Also, teaching how a predator will "interview" you to get close (have a light, what time is it, can you tell me how to get to X, etc.)

The VAST majority of a women's self-defense program should be spent on this.  The next portion should be spent on proper mindset and how to not give up or fight back.  The techniques should be intertwined with the mindset to practice both.

Again, I am not a big fan of "magic bullet" techniques.  As I have repeatedly said, if it happens naturally, use it.  But, don't plan on it as part of your strategy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2016)

Old saying said, "When you meet someone in the dark alley, whoever has more courage will win."


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## aedrasteia (May 3, 2016)

punisher73 said:


> Again, this is partially right.  _Most _rapes aren't the stranger jumping out of a bush.  Most are "date rape" situations, or situations where the attacker is known.
> 
> Time would be MUCH better spent teaching them "basic" self-defense skills about awareness and pre-contract strategies.  Things like, not going places alone/using the buddy system.  Parking under a light to see what's around your car.  Having your keys out before walking out of the store.  If your hands are full, asking for an escort out to your car.  Not using your cellphone when walking around.  Looking in the backseat before getting in.  Locking your doors as soon as you get in.  List goes on and on.  Also, teaching how a predator will "interview" you to get close (have a light, what time is it, can you tell me how to get to X, etc.)
> 
> ...



Punisher - the threat who *already knows his target doesn't need an interview*. How does 'not using the cellphone' or  'checking the backseat' or 'locking your doors as soon as you get in' or 'using the buddy system' or  'parking under a light' or 'having your keys out' qualify as any kind of useful strategy when the threat is _*already in your life_?  * He (yes, usually 'he')  is 'inside the circle', someone accepted/trusted by the rest of the people surrounding the target.  So if the target speaks out about that 'gut instinct' feeling, most others inside the circle discount her perceptions (or worse). And it happens to boys/men too. Same profile; the predator is already close by. 

Do you, or anyone else on this thread get that?  And do you have anything useful for the reality we face?  You sure have lots of 'shoulds' - any direct experience in successfully 'doing'?

Your suggestions are pointed right at 'stranger assault'  Way over 75-80-90% of assaults come from threats who are already inside the circle of trust. What have you got for that?


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## drop bear (May 3, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> Punisher - the threat who *already knows his target doesn't need an interview*. How does 'not using the cellphone' or  'checking the backseat' or 'locking your doors as soon as you get in' or 'using the buddy system' or  'parking under a light' or 'having your keys out' qualify as any kind of useful strategy when the threat is _*already in your life_?  * He (yes, usually 'he')  is 'inside the circle', someone accepted/trusted by the rest of the people surrounding the target.  So if the target speaks out about that 'gut instinct' feeling, most others inside the circle discount her perceptions (or worse). And it happens to boys/men too. Same profile; the predator is already close by.
> 
> Do you, or anyone else on this thread get that?  And do you have anything useful for the reality we face?  You sure have lots of 'shoulds' - any direct experience in successfully 'doing'?
> 
> Your suggestions are pointed right at 'stranger assault'  Way over 75-80-90% of assaults come from threats who are already inside the circle of trust. What have you got for that?



Get a better circle.


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## Steve (May 3, 2016)

As far as self defense goes, it's pretty much all apocryphal.  Statistics just tend to gum up the works.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 4, 2016)

punisher73 said:


> Again, this is partially right.  _Most _rapes aren't the stranger jumping out of a bush.  Most are "date rape" situations, or situations where the attacker is known.
> 
> If it is a random rape attack, then they are looking for an easy target, because the motivation isn't "sex" it's about "power" using sex as the instrument of control.
> 
> ...



The unfortunate reality about seminars for self-defense is that people expect physical techniques, and are unlikely to show up if you have a reputation for talking to them for an hour, then spending 20-30 minutes on physical defense. When I do a seminar, I try to weave as much of this type of material as I can within and between the physical techniques. I'm actually playing with that in some public seminars I'm planning in the next couple of months - trying to find ways to push more of the proactive material. As you rightly state, this is the more important and likely more effective portion of the training, especially where there is no time to really develop ingrained habits in the physical techniques.


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## oftheherd1 (May 4, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Get a better circle.



Not so hard to get a better circle of friends.  Pretty difficult to get a better circle of family.  More important is to know when to do it, and unfortunately, that may only be after an attack.


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## Tez3 (May 4, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Not so hard to get a better circle of friends.  Pretty difficult to get a better circle of family.  More important is to know when to do it, and unfortunately, that may only be after an attack.



There is no way of knowing who the rapist will be in a circle of friends, it can easily be the church going, pleasant polite chap who everyone loves or the sensible married man who wouldn't dream of having an affair. It can be the doctor, the police officer, the bank manager, frankly it could be anyone. There is no 'type' that one knows to avoid, changing to a so called better circle of friends means nothing at all.


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## oftheherd1 (May 4, 2016)

Buka said:


> Myths? From Martial Arts? Naaaaaa, say it ain't so!
> 
> When I was a kid there were some corkers. _If you were a black belt you had to register your hands at the Police Station. _
> Think about that. Think about the desk Sargent, the look on his face.I wonder if he gave you a form?
> ...



No doubt there will be some good ones.  They always crop up among the inexperienced.  I was doing an interview once and somehow the conversation got onto martial arts.  I mentioned I had studied under Jhoon Goo Rhee, who was a 6th degree black belt in TKD (I hadn't yet studied HKD).  Dully impressed, he replied how good that was, and that Mr. Rhee was obviously so good that he should be about ready to start learning Kung-Fu.


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## punisher73 (May 4, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> Punisher - the threat who *already knows his target doesn't need an interview*. How does 'not using the cellphone' or  'checking the backseat' or 'locking your doors as soon as you get in' or 'using the buddy system' or  'parking under a light' or 'having your keys out' qualify as any kind of useful strategy when the threat is _*already in your life_?  * He (yes, usually 'he')  is 'inside the circle', someone accepted/trusted by the rest of the people surrounding the target.  So if the target speaks out about that 'gut instinct' feeling, most others inside the circle discount her perceptions (or worse). And it happens to boys/men too. Same profile; the predator is already close by.
> 
> Do you, or anyone else on this thread get that?  And do you have anything useful for the reality we face?  You sure have lots of 'shoulds' - any direct experience in successfully 'doing'?
> 
> Your suggestions are pointed right at 'stranger assault'  Way over 75-80-90% of assaults come from threats who are already inside the circle of trust. What have you got for that?



Please take the time to re-read my post.  You are covering ground I already explained.  I already explained that most rapes are known to the victim.  I seperated that from the criminal who "targets" their victim.  As explained in my post, those suggestions are making yourself into a "harder target" for the stranger situation.  Awareness is key to avoiding those situations.

Yes, I have had experience both in my job and having people approach me on the street for "an interview".  It never amounted to anything because I wasn't worth it.  My advice is based on that experience and other's experience who deal with violence in the field.

As for "date rape" situations.  That's tougher, like Tez said, you can know someone for years and then something snaps and they try to rape you.  Teaching a class that involves a "known person" vs. a stranger is obviously different.  Even the "known person" will have different approaches based on where the relationship is.  For example, I have taught classes to college girls.  I cover basic dating advice with them.  Honestly, they don't like the advice and don't do it.  But, it is safer that way.  Some examples are, drive seperate to the date so you aren't relying on them for transportation.  First few times, make it a group/double date for safety in numbers.  Not letting them bring you a drink that you didn't watch poured (date rape drugs), not drinking alcohol so you are not in control, letting a friend know where you will be at and having them check in on you, etc.

Now to a "known person" rape like a boyfriend/husband/relative that all of the other stuff doesn't apply.  Again, teaching mindset and basic techniques to get away, using improvised weapons.  Down and dirty tactics and nothing fancy.


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## hoshin1600 (May 4, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> Do you, or anyone else on this thread get that? And do you have anything useful for the reality we face


Yes I get it but I have been staying out of the thread because at times I feel like I'm hitting my head on a wall and I repeat myself too often.


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## jks9199 (May 4, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> Punisher - the threat who *already knows his target doesn't need an interview*. How does 'not using the cellphone' or  'checking the backseat' or 'locking your doors as soon as you get in' or 'using the buddy system' or  'parking under a light' or 'having your keys out' qualify as any kind of useful strategy when the threat is _*already in your life_?  * He (yes, usually 'he')  is 'inside the circle', someone accepted/trusted by the rest of the people surrounding the target.  So if the target speaks out about that 'gut instinct' feeling, most others inside the circle discount her perceptions (or worse). And it happens to boys/men too. Same profile; the predator is already close by.



I don't completely agree with the idea that there's no interview or other precursor behavior in acquaintance/date rape.  It's often slower, and sneaker -- but I'd argue that it's there.  Outside of the cases of true miscommunication/mutually altered states situations...  there's still an interview process.  There's still a working in, charming or assessing the vulnerability of the victim.  Like I said -- it may take place over days or weeks instead of minutes.  There's grooming tactics and other behaviors used to make the victim more vulnerable or otherwise relax their guard and accept the destructive behavior as normal.

Likewise, learning to trust her own instincts, to insist on getting others to hear what they're saying is important, whether dealing with strangers or those who are already in an "OK" circle.  Along with trusting instincts is learning to actually say NO in a way that is heard.  That means learning to be impolite -- even rude! -- and defining boundaries.

The bottom line is included in the last sentence I qouted; "the predator is already close by."  Predators hunt and stalk.  That's the way they work.


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## punisher73 (May 4, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> I don't completely agree with the idea that there's no interview or other precursor behavior in acquaintance/date rape.  It's often slower, and sneaker -- but I'd argue that it's there.  Outside of the cases of true miscommunication/mutually altered states situations...  there's still an interview process.  There's still a working in, charming or assessing the vulnerability of the victim.  Like I said -- it may take place over days or weeks instead of minutes.  There's grooming tactics and other behaviors used to make the victim more vulnerable or otherwise relax their guard and accept the destructive behavior as normal.
> 
> Likewise, learning to trust her own instincts, to insist on getting others to hear what they're saying is important, whether dealing with strangers or those who are already in an "OK" circle.  Along with trusting instincts is learning to actually say NO in a way that is heard.  That means learning to be impolite -- even rude! -- and defining boundaries.
> 
> The bottom line is included in the last sentence I qouted; "the predator is already close by."  Predators hunt and stalk.  That's the way they work.



Agree completely, I should have been more specific in my last post.

I always recommend that students read "The Gift of Fear" to listen to that "inner voice" and their gut feelings.


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## aedrasteia (May 4, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> " I don't completely agree with the idea that there's no interview or other precursor behavior in acquaintance/date rape.  It's often slower, and sneaker -- but I'd argue that it's there.  Outside of the cases of true miscommunication/mutually altered states situations...  there's still an interview process.  There's still a working in, charming or assessing the vulnerability of the victim.  Like I said -- it may take place over days or weeks instead of minutes.  There's grooming tactics and other behaviors used to make the victim more vulnerable or otherwise relax their guard and accept the destructive behavior as normal.".



(this will be a long response, but your words are so worthwhile)

Thanks  greatly JK . This is a terrific post. - I'm with you on this - and your explanation makes it clearer and better. The majority of MA instructors that I've listened to refer to a brief encounter - usually with a stranger who selects a Target, causes her (or him) to stop and exchange some conversation while the Stranger sizes her up, possibly maneuvers her, uses some pretext to create an opportunity.  The 'interview conversation'  itself is a kind of test: will this Target talk to me,?allowing a conversation with me out of politeness, social pressure, deference.??  He appears to behave within the customs of social boundaries (this isn't a jump and grab/blitz attack).  In my curriculum we have an entire section on Targeting and Testing (both Strangers and Known).

I  thought it was a bit of good progress over the last decade when a few MA teachers began to acknowledge what we women had been saying for years: the 'interview' by a stranger or Known aggressor was far more common than a blitz.

Your description of that longer, extended process of Targeting and Testing is really good and clear. I think you can have an impact on other male MAs. My experience has been encountering real resistance/reluctance among MAs to face what you have described so well: that the predators are right there all along - and this is how they operate, right inside that circle.  My experience is that denial has been most prevalent, followed by massive avoidance because they have no clue how to _teach_ the responses you describe - and you are spot on. As long as MAs can just avoid this whole reality, just don't acknowledge it or talk about it, they can avoid revealing that they have no idea what to do.

Some MA folks will tell about 'trusting her instincts'  'insisting that others hear what's happening' , 'saying NO' , 'being impolite or rude'.  All of your observations are good.  But the predator is actively diverting attention away from himself, playing on his continued acceptance within the family, school, neighborhood, church, teams
while he is grooming the Target _and_ everyone around her.   It has taken more than 35 years of the hardest work imaginable for us to get attention and persuade people to just barely begin to understand the reality of this. The church/priest molestation cases finally made a kind of massive impact, but I'm old enough to remember the rage,  contempt and rejection of any suggestion that trusted adults _really_molested kids. I've seen the movie Spotlight, winner of Best Picture.  Its better than I expected and it's a stunningl reminder of the power of denial.

From what I've observed/seen (not my hunch or guess) over more than 30 years, these good-hearted and well-meaning MAs simply do not have the context, background knowledge, defined behavioral goals or the teaching and interpersonal skills to actually teach this successfully. They mostly make statements about what women _should do_  and  make encouraging gestures. They urge and sometimes demand, but they don't know how to change actual behavior, beginning with the internal source of that behavior.  And they have never, ever had to do this (change themselves in this way) in their own lives. They are like blind people in the dark.
Mostly, they find the whole situation very uncomfortable and they find girls/womens responses puzzling and unsettling.

However, that's not the whole story. Women MAs and instructors are able to do this because we've lived it and figured out how we changed ourselves. But that's another thread.

Many many thanks for you good, smart words


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> From what I've observed/seen (not my hunch or guess) over more than 30 years, these good-hearted and well-meaning MAs simply do not have the context, background knowledge, defined behavioral goals or the teaching and interpersonal skills to actually teach this successfully. They mostly make statements about what women _should do_ and make encouraging gestures. They urge and sometimes demand, but they don't know how to change actual behavior, beginning with the internal source of that behavior. And they have never, ever had to do this (change themselves in this way) in their own lives. They are like blind people in the dark.


brilliant and well said!!   but the same statement can be said for MA teaching male and general self defense as well.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2016)

i would also like to point out that the saying  "most rapists are known to the victim"    needs to be looked at a little more in depth.  to use an old example, in an early Sopranos TV episode Tony's therapist was raped in what was shown as a "stranger" rape.  but later in the show she sees his picture at the coffee shop she often goes to. 
From this we can deduce,,,, for her the perpetrator was a stranger but for him it is quite possible he knows HER very well.  he might have been serving her, her coffee everyday, knows her name from her credit card, has over heard her conversations on her cell phone while she was waiting in line.  he knows where she works and where she lives, knows some of her daily schedule her children's and husbands name and has looked her up on face book and other social media.  he has targeted her long in advance.  every rapist is a cereal rapist even if this was his first attempt.  it is quite possible he has some experience and knows exactly what he is doing.
( this is typical MO and profile of an "organised" rapist)


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> Punisher - the threat who *already knows his target doesn't need an interview*. How does 'not using the cellphone' or  'checking the backseat' or 'locking your doors as soon as you get in' or 'using the buddy system' or  'parking under a light' or 'having your keys out' qualify as any kind of useful strategy when the threat is _*already in your life_?  * He (yes, usually 'he')  is 'inside the circle', someone accepted/trusted by the rest of the people surrounding the target.  So if the target speaks out about that 'gut instinct' feeling, most others inside the circle discount her perceptions (or worse). And it happens to boys/men too. Same profile; the predator is already close by.
> 
> Do you, or anyone else on this thread get that?  And do you have anything useful for the reality we face?  You sure have lots of 'shoulds' - any direct experience in successfully 'doing'?
> 
> Your suggestions are pointed right at 'stranger assault'  Way over 75-80-90% of assaults come from threats who are already inside the circle of trust. What have you got for that?


That's an aggressive response to a comment - seems unwarranted.

Yes, the mental/perceptual parts are primarily for stranger attacks. The physical responses most of us teach are equally effective (and ineffective) regardless of whether the attacker is a stranger or not.

As for "any direct experience in successfully 'doing'", that's been discussed on other threads, and most of us know someone (some of us several) among our training partners, students, and instructors who have successfully used some of the physical techniques. To defend against sexual assault from an insider? Most of us no - partly because it's unlikely we'll hear from a student that she (yes, usually "she") was attacked by a friend of the family.


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## KangTsai (May 5, 2016)

The most counter-productive, dangerous martial arts teachings are supposed techniques which are intended to handle multiple attackers. Some teachers seem to forget to stress the fact that not fighting is the best option.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> (this will be a long response, but your words are so worthwhile)
> 
> Thanks  greatly JK . This is a terrific post. - I'm with you on this - and your explanation makes it clearer and better. The majority of MA instructors that I've listened to refer to a brief encounter - usually with a stranger who selects a Target, causes her (or him) to stop and exchange some conversation while the Stranger sizes her up, possibly maneuvers her, uses some pretext to create an opportunity.  The 'interview conversation'  itself is a kind of test: will this Target talk to me,?allowing a conversation with me out of politeness, social pressure, deference.??  He appears to behave within the customs of social boundaries (this isn't a jump and grab/blitz attack).  In my curriculum we have an entire section on Targeting and Testing (both Strangers and Known).
> 
> ...



You make a good point about many MA instructors not teaching these areas, or teaching them poorly. Here are a few comments - entirely my opinion - meant kindly and to foster discussion:

1) This is not, in any way, restricted to male MA instructors. Your closing comment implies that women can somehow teach this because they have to deal with it, but most female MA instructors also lack the knowledge of these same mental techniques - both what to teach and how to effect the change needed in their students. Remember that they are usually trained by the same sources as the male instructors. Of course, they likely have a better chance of creating change by way of their own credibility - I would hope a woman hears more clearly the danger when it is stated by another woman. I claim no mastery here, though I do work on some of the base issues that seem to have impact, statistically speaking (and, as Steve commented, statistics can tend to muddy the waters).

2) It is no sin for a MA instructor to no talk about those things he/she cannot teach effectively. In fact, I wish those who don't know what they're talking about would quit teaching this stuff, because they often teach methods that are either useless or may actually be dangerous. They should probably acknowledge their lack of knowledge, encourage students to seek that knowledge, then get back to what they know.

3) Physical techniques are part of this continuum. Since it is harder to prevent attack by an insider (much easier to teach avoidance for stranger situations), it seems more likely these might lead to physical defense. So, if an instructor cannot teach avoidance well, perhaps he/she can at least teach physical defense for the situation.

*All that said, I wish I saw more sources offering to teach this to instructors. Do you, by chance, ever do seminars to introduce these principles to instructors? Have you considered putting together a solid book of principles and techniques to help? We could use help from someone like you who clearly has done research and has understanding.*


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> The most counter-productive, dangerous martial arts teachings are supposed techniques which are intended to handle multiple attackers. Some teachers seem to forget to stress the fact that not fighting is the best option.


What makes this so dangerous? I teach avoidance as the first option, always. I also teach methods for dealing with multiple attackers. It is a potential situation (with poor odds that can be improved somewhat), and an effective exercise for working on situational awareness.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> i would also like to point out that the saying  "most rapists are known to the victim"    needs to be looked at a little more in depth.  to use an old example, in an early Sopranos TV episode Tony's therapist was raped in what was shown as a "stranger" rape.  but later in the show she sees his picture at the coffee shop she often goes to.
> From this we can deduce,,,, for her the perpetrator was a stranger but for him it is quite possible he knows HER very well.  he might have been serving her, her coffee everyday, knows her name from her credit card, has over heard her conversations on her cell phone while she was waiting in line.  he knows where she works and where she lives, knows some of her daily schedule her children's and husbands name and has looked her up on face book and other social media.  he has targeted her long in advance.  every rapist is a cereal rapist even if this was his first attempt.  it is quite possible he has some experience and knows exactly what he is doing.
> ( this is typical MO and profile of an "organised" rapist)


I'm not sure a television example is a good example for assessing real-life risk. Are you aware of any statistics or anecdotal evidence of this sort of thing being common among real-life assaults?


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## KangTsai (May 5, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> What makes this so dangerous? I teach avoidance as the first option, always. I also teach methods for dealing with multiple attackers. It is a potential situation (with poor odds that can be improved somewhat), and an effective exercise for working on situational awareness.


Sorry I think I was focused more on bad teaching of supposed techniques. I have nothing wrong with "how to prevent harm to yourself and others in the presence of multiple attackers" and I think it's useful knowledge to have; what I meant was the certain ones which involve you actually fighting attackers as opponents. Now that I think about it I think it's more based on people, not teachings.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure a television example is a good example for assessing real-life risk. Are you aware of any statistics or anecdotal evidence of this sort of thing being common among real-life assaults?


Your hung up on the fact that I used a TV reference...you've missed the point.
And yes there are statistics and evidence. the information comes from the United states FBI behavioral science unit. Feel free to look it up.
Is it common?  Not necessarily but my statement was that the saying " the rapist is known" needs a deeper understanding.  The victim may know him but may not be in a "circle of trust".


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2016)

KangTsai said:


> Sorry I think I was focused more on bad teaching of supposed techniques. I have nothing wrong with "how to prevent harm to yourself and others in the presence of multiple attackers" and I think it's useful knowledge to have; what I meant was the certain ones which involve you actually fighting attackers as opponents. Now that I think about it I think it's more based on people, not teachings.


In that continuum, there is the worst case scenario of actually having to deal with them physically. I don't spend much time on it, as it's a less likely scenario than a single attacker, but it's a possibility we deal with. Our focus is more on how to keep from dealing with more than one at a time, using movement to get to the outside of the group, dropping one in front of others, etc. I try to keep some realism in this, except when it's just a movement exercise. 

Mind you, I've seen some wholly unrealistic approaches to multiple attacker scenarios. I still tell stories about one of them that I saw in a demonstration.


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## oftheherd1 (May 5, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> You make a good point about many MA instructors not teaching these areas, or teaching them poorly. Here are a few comments - entirely my opinion - meant kindly and to foster discussion:
> 
> 1) This is not, in any way, restricted to male MA instructors. *Your closing comment implies that women can somehow teach this because they have to deal with it, but most female MA instructors also lack the knowledge of these same mental techniques - both what to teach and how to effect the change needed in their students. Remember that they are usually trained by the same sources as the male instructors. Of course, they likely have a better chance of creating change by way of their own credibility *- I would hope a woman hears more clearly the danger when it is stated by another woman. I claim no mastery here, though I do work on some of the base issues that seem to have impact, statistically speaking (and, as Steve commented, statistics can tend to muddy the waters).
> 
> ...



*Bolded and underlined:*  Unfortunately it seems that many women never report being raped.  The fact that they have been, would presumably give them a perspective a person who hasn't been raped, might not have.  But I agree they still might not know best ways to deal with it, and therefore teach.  But I expect if they care enough to teach, they probably would talk to social workers as well as bringing in their own ways to have dealt with such situations.  That is not to say they would be willing to say they have also been raped, but possibly, and they surely would be more empathetic.

Rape, since it involves so many facets, from stranger, to date, to 'insider' friend or relative, and from overt drastic force to drugs, to subtle breaking down of defenses, tends to make it difficult to know how to prepare a potential victim to defend themselves, verbally, mentally, or even by physical defense techniques.  Especially if unknown to the instructor, the potential victim is actually already a victim.

For those who teach self defense, and especially if it tends toward rape defense, I would encourage discussions with social workers who specialize in rape counseling; perhaps even asking them to come in and give a block of instruction on that, while the MA instructor concentrates on the MA side of the equation.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 5, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Your hung up on the fact that I used a TV reference...you've missed the point.
> And yes there are statistics and evidence. the information comes from the United states FBI behavioral science unit. Feel free to look it up.
> Is it common?  Not necessarily but my statement was that the saying " the rapist is known" needs a deeper understanding.  The victim may know him but may not be in a "circle of trust".


I am in no way "hung up" on that. It's just the only reference you used. If you'd tied it to something else, I'd have had a different reaction.

I agree that there may be more to the "known" concept than just friends/family - I just don't know of any evidence I can cite. That's why I asked if you were aware of any specific evidence.


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## hoshin1600 (May 5, 2016)

i used the TV episode as a  "common point of reference" i then overlaid real life information on top the story. i could have referenced  "State VS Moreno- Hernandez"  but then no one would know the story or what i was talking about, sometimes it is better to start with a common point like a TV show that millions of people have watched.  
i am not sure what evidence you are looking for...evidence for what?  understanding the nature of the crime the evidence of an attacker knowing more about the victim becomes self evident.


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## jks9199 (May 5, 2016)

Rape numbers..  Yeah, let's not even try to go down that rabbit hole.  Definitions that change, expand, and respin, stats carefully crafted to support what the quoter wants them to say...  Yes, there are many unreported rapes.  Lots of reasons -- but the numbers aren't so astronomical as many argue, either.  And that's not even getting into false report -- and the lack of prosecution of false reports of rape.  

Rape in general is a question worthy of a thread all its own.  Then there's domestic violence, which is NOT synonymous with rape.

With that out of the way..

Why do so many martial arts teachers teach incomplete, unworkable, or even purely imaginary ways to cope with violence?  Well... fantasy sells a lot better than gritty reality.  And the reality side isn't all that fun.  And lots of folks really aren't interested in reality, either.  They want to do an activity that's "cool" or to do something with their kids.  They want their kids to learn discipline, focus, some physical competence (not necessarily fighting!)...  they want to connect with the history of a particular tradition, or the romantic impression attached.  And some -- well, they live in their fantasy world.  And they like it.  They don't want to learn the realities.


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## aedrasteia (May 5, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, the mental/perceptual parts are primarily for stranger attacks. The physical responses most of us teach are equally effective (and ineffective) regardless of whether the attacker is a stranger or not.
> 
> As for "any direct experience in successfully 'doing'", that's been discussed on other threads, and most of us know someone (some of us several) among our training partners, students, and instructors who have successfully used some of the physical techniques. To defend against sexual assault from an insider? Most of us no - partly because it's unlikely we'll hear from a student that she (yes, usually "she") was attacked by a friend of the family.



thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I apologize for the length here.

re:  "_direct experience"._ Yes, we both know multiple people who have "successfully used physical techniques". However, I meant direct experience with successfully modeling/teaching/changing the mental-psychological framework that allows Targets to behave in ways that prevent assaults". This is the framework that enables girls/women to' set and enforce early boundaries'  to be 'impolite' or 'rude' if required, to notice and ACT on that 'hunch-gut instinct-funny feeling'  that so many describe feeling prior to a physical assault.  I'm asking if that poster, or anyone on this thread, has actual, replicable experience in doing that successfully.  Do you and can you describe it or help me understand why you do not?

My experience is that most MA-based instructors doing SD4W, have not. This is based on both observing and listening to many instructors in many styles over about 30 years. And the many, many threads on forums such as MT, where teachers (almost totally men) express significant confusion and puzzlement about their female students inability to do what is needed (both verbal and physical) to reduce their risk, respond to intrusive or threatening behavior or defend against physical attacks. I see very little thoughtful investigation into why that is so (such as asking and listening to replies), and little willingness to connect the very limiting ways most girls are socialized, to this inhibited self-protective behavior and thinking. For MAs (mostly men)  they do not take any connection seriously and have no idea how to move forward

re: "_To defend against sexual assault from an insider? Most of us no - partly because it's unlikely we'll hear from a student that she (yes, usually "she") was attacked by a friend of the family.
_
Yes, I understand you don't hear this. There are reasons why Targets don't share this with you.  But it exists and is the most frequent form of targeting/testing/aggression/assault  that girls/women must face. So to ignore it, when one knows it is so significant, is unacceptable, at least to a teacher wanting to do his/her best for people seeking help and useful instruction.

How is it possible to see oneself as effectively teaching SD4W if one has _little or no experience/actual knowledge_ of this entire dimension?  

I construct and organize all my classes, workshops, presentations, talks and personal encounters about SD4W so that  it becomes very likely that I'll   "_hear from a student that she (yes, usually "she") was attacked by a friend of the family'._

It is my job to make that as "likely"  as I possibly can. Being a woman can be an asset but as pointed out on this thread, many women MAs were trained by men in MA and are equally ineffective/poor at teaching the wide range of SD4W because of it.
Over time, working collaboratively with other instructors, we've developed many strategies for making students feel comfortable talking honestly, either with others present or in private. That's part of the responsibility. It can be done. 

Men in SD could do so, if they choose.. It takes time and sustained commitment and is more painful I think, than any physical challenge. I've not seen that to date but it may occur.     i am hopeful and try to be encouraging.

w/respect A

The obvious Target population is becoming experienced and comfortable working with boys, teens and adult men who have been sexually assaulted by coaches, family members, friends, trusted figures. They are certainly there. They also have sought me out.     Most did not seek out other adult men. Shame, humiliation and terror were present in those conversations.  Developing and learning to be effective in helping those Targeted people will be a way for men in SD to get these skills.         I haven't see that to date but it could happen. I don't think I've ever seen a reality-based SD training (involving mostly males) that included _any_ mention of the "known/trusted/friendly attacker" or sexual abuse of boys, teens or men by people "inside that circle".  I hope that will change. It is desperately needed.

w/respect A
_
_


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## Touch Of Death (May 5, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I apologize for the length here.
> 
> re:  "_direct experience"._ Yes, we both know multiple people who have "successfully used physical techniques". However, I meant direct experience with successfully modeling/teaching/changing the mental-psychological framework that allows Targets to behave in ways that prevent assaults". This is the framework that enables girls/women to' set and enforce early boundaries'  to be 'impolite' or 'rude' if required, to notice and ACT on that 'hunch-gut instinct-funny feeling'  that so many describe feeling prior to a physical assault.  I'm asking if that poster, or anyone on this thread, has actual, replicable experience in doing that successfully.  Do you and can you describe it or help me understand why you do not?
> 
> ...


While little boys, the less obvious target population, are just as often targeted, I think you are touching on a business issue. If you teach these kids to start eyeing their own family, the family will notice. LOL


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## Touch Of Death (May 5, 2016)

They did this to me in Sunday School, when I was young, and low and behold, my parents encouraged me to get bored with it.


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## jks9199 (May 5, 2016)

If you teach self defense classes -- especially self defense classes for women, you WILL encounter victims as students.  The challenge for the instructor -- whatever their gender -- is to set up an environment where they will feel safe to confront the issues that exist from that.  It's far from easy.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2016)

aedrasteia said:


> thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I apologize for the length here.
> 
> re:  "_direct experience"._ Yes, we both know multiple people who have "successfully used physical techniques". However, I meant direct experience with successfully modeling/teaching/changing the mental-psychological framework that allows Targets to behave in ways that prevent assaults". This is the framework that enables girls/women to' set and enforce early boundaries'  to be 'impolite' or 'rude' if required, to notice and ACT on that 'hunch-gut instinct-funny feeling'  that so many describe feeling prior to a physical assault.  I'm asking if that poster, or anyone on this thread, has actual, replicable experience in doing that successfully.  Do you and can you describe it or help me understand why you do not?
> 
> ...


I agree with at least 80-90% of what you said. The other 10-20% may be semantics and perception, so probably not worth debate.

In essence, my assertion is that very few instructors of either gender have your understanding of either what is needed or how to effect the change - much less both. As for me, this is one reason I don't do woman-specific classes. I simply am not trained and informed enough to deliver what you're talking about. Could I learn it? Of course - but not from scratch, while running my regular business. If someone like you offered a course on this topic, backed with good research and materials to assist me, I'd be interested.

For now, I simply accept that I'm not qualified to cover this area well, so I do what I can to help (including working on some of the foundational aspects of psychological self-development with all of my students) and teach the most effective physical defense I can as an offset to what I cannot do.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> If you teach self defense classes -- especially self defense classes for women, you WILL encounter victims as students.  The challenge for the instructor -- whatever their gender -- is to set up an environment where they will feel safe to confront the issues that exist from that.  It's far from easy.


Oh, I have definitely run into some, though only in seminar situations, never among my students. I suspect that my training style is not comforting to someone who has been through that kind of experience, so they don't become students. More proof that I don't have the depth of understanding necessary to be as helpful as I'd like in this are.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Oh, I have definitely run into some, though only in seminar situations, never among my students. I suspect that my training style is not comforting to someone who has been through that kind of experience, so they don't become students. More proof that I don't have the depth of understanding necessary to be as helpful as I'd like in this are.


What about your training style do you think is not suitable to them?


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## jks9199 (May 9, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Oh, I have definitely run into some, though only in seminar situations, never among my students. I suspect that my training style is not comforting to someone who has been through that kind of experience, so they don't become students. More proof that I don't have the depth of understanding necessary to be as helpful as I'd like in this are.


Absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing that.  Too few do...


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## deflect->atemi (May 12, 2016)

drop bear said:


> _I have had a guy take his shoes of to fight me. _



I've only seen it once in my life.


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## RTKDCMB (May 13, 2016)

deflect->atemi said:


> I've only seen it once in my life.


Kudos to the President for his reflexes.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 13, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> What about your training style do you think is not suitable to them?


Too much "hands-on" too quickly, by a male instructor. The first thing anyone learns involves me grabbing them by the arm.


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