# Restart or pick up where I left off?



## Mark1985 (May 20, 2016)

Sorry but another question. If I start again after 15 years, should I restart as a white belt or carry on where I left off? I will need to relearn most of the patterns (poomse or kata or whatever they are called in the MA you practise), and most of the kicks/blocks/punches. I will probs pick them up quicker than most newbies but should u just pick up at where I left off or start affresh? Or does it depend on the school?


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## Gnarlie (May 20, 2016)

I would restart unless you're in some kind of hurry. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Flatfish (May 20, 2016)

Might depend on the school as well. We have had students come in who trained at a different school previously (same art though). They kept whatever belt they had earned but had to learn the curriculum up to that grade before they could test for the next level. 

OTOH hand fifteen years is a long break and you might actually feel more comfortable starting over. I know I would feel funny walking into a Judo dojo with a green belt on after not having practiced for near 30 years.


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## Tez3 (May 20, 2016)

If it were me I'd feel more comfortable starting again with a white belt, I'd be worried about making a fool of myself if I wore a former grade and couldn't do/remember it. I'd rather be thought of as a quick learner because I'd done it before lol. Seriously though, I'd be more relaxed about training without any pressure to live up to a grade I had a while back.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 20, 2016)

Finnegan, begin again.


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## pgsmith (May 20, 2016)

Belts in a martial arts class serve a number of purposes. Most common is an indicator to the instructor, and other students, of where a student is and how they should be practicing. If you insist on wearing your former belt level but can't practice at that level, then it is both confusing and irritating to others who now don't know what to expect of you. This is also the why I get irritated at those people that say "I don't bother with testing for ranks because I don't care about them".

  Just my take on it.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 20, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Belts in a martial arts class serve a number of purposes. Most common is an indicator to the instructor, and other students, of where a student is and how they should be practicing. If you insist on wearing your former belt level but can't practice at that level, then it is both confusing and irritating to others who now don't know what to expect of you. This is also the why I get irritated at those people that say "I don't bother with testing for ranks because I don't care about them".
> 
> Just my take on it.



I agree.  I have seen students who were unable to attend for many years come back, and without asking, simply put on a white belt again.  In the case where they were able to quickly regain what time had stolen from them, our sensei simply told them to put on whatever color belt corresponded to where they were.  But they waited to be told that, they did not decide what they were entitled to wear on their own.  Big difference.


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## Danny T (May 20, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Belts in a martial arts class serve a number of purposes. Most common is an indicator to the instructor, and other students, of where a student is and how they should be practicing. If you insist on wearing your former belt level but can't practice at that level, then it is both confusing and irritating to others who now don't know what to expect of you. This is also the why I get irritated at those people that say "I don't bother with testing for ranks because I don't care about them".
> 
> Just my take on it.


Hmm.
Had over 30 people in my Muay Thai class last night. No colored belts, no signs of rankings but I'm willing to bet everyone there knows who is at what level and how to train with each other and what to expect from each other. How? By being there and training. 
I can assess very quickly what someone needs to work on as soon as they start warming up, shadow boxing, or doing any pad work or drills.


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## JR 137 (May 20, 2016)

I took 15 years off.  I left right before my 2nd dan test (went away to grad school), and just started again about 15 months ago.

Had I went back to my original school (or another in the same organization), I'd have kept my rank and not tested until I was ready to promote.  My former Sensei moved the dojo I used to study at about an hour away, so that wasn't an option.  Another school in the organization offered to let me keep my old rank, but I told them I didn't want to.  I didn't end up going there for other reasons unrelated to rank.

My current school has very close ties with my old school.  My old organization's founders came from my current organization.  They kept 90% of the curriculum.

My current teacher told me I couldn't wear my old belt in his dojo.  My response was "I don't want to; all it'll be is a Halloween costume at this point."

I started over as a white belt, and I'm currently a 4th kyu.  I know all the material up to 1st dan, but I don't care about being a black belt.  I can "beat" several black belts I train with, but I don't care.  I've helped several students who outrank me with material for their rank, but again, I don't care.

I genuinely feel I'm better now than I was 15 years ago.  I left at 24, and will be 40 next month.  I'm smarter, stronger and faster now.  The only thing I'm not better at is flexibility.

How do I feel about being a 1st dan?  Been there, done that.  I chased rank when I was young.  I'm currently chasing improvement.  Would it be fun to work on the material I did when I left?  Sure.  But it's not going anywhere.  I'll be better at it when the time comes.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to keep your old rank.  But remember what you're really after.  Is it a belt, or is it ability?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 20, 2016)

Regardless of whether or not the school accepts your rank, after 15 years I would start again. Normally my advice would be similar to what Bill said-mention your previous rank, but wait until they suggest you take up that rank. It's considered rude at a lot of places to assume you keep the rank somewhere else gave you. However, after 15 years even if they offer you the rank I would not recommend accepting it, just way too long of a break for that.


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## Dirty Dog (May 21, 2016)

I'd rather wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than wear a black belt and have people wonder why.


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## Mark1985 (May 21, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd rather wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than wear a black belt and have people wonder why.



That's what I was thinking as well. Thanks for all the tips guys. I will start back at the beginning, but mention my previous rank to the instructor.


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## Buka (May 21, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd rather wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than wear a black belt and have people wonder why.



Man, that right there, that's just awesome.


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## jks9199 (May 21, 2016)

Talk to your instructor.  He'll know where he wants you -- and why.


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## JR 137 (May 21, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd rather wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than wear a black belt and have people wonder why.



Exactly.

The only person I told was my CI.  Several people asked me where I trained previously.  I told anyone who asked, and didn't tell anyone and everyone who didn't ask.

It's quite obvious when someone has trained for more than a few months before, and when they haven't.  They may be rusty, forget some stuff, etc., but the instincts and basics are usually still there.


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## pgsmith (May 23, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Hmm.
> Had over 30 people in my Muay Thai class last night. No colored belts, no signs of rankings but I'm willing to bet everyone there knows who is at what level and how to train with each other and what to expect from each other. How? By being there and training.
> I can assess very quickly what someone needs to work on as soon as they start warming up, shadow boxing, or doing any pad work or drills.



  Okay .... However, since Muay Thai does not use belt ranks and isn't set up that way, this is equivalent to you comparing your fish to the fruit that everyone else is talking about.


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## Danny T (May 24, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Okay .... However, since Muay Thai does not use belt ranks and isn't set up that way, this is equivalent to you comparing your fish to the fruit that everyone else is talking about.


Has nothing to do with knowing where people are skill wise or what they need to work on. 

So your instructor nor anyone else cannot tell what students need to work on? It is only because of the belt rank structure? Come on now.
Even within belt rankings those who are on the floor and who train on a regular basis knows who is skilled or not and what areas need to be worked on. The belt has nothing to do with that.


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## ks - learning to fly (May 24, 2016)

From what I've seen - whether you restart at white or pick up where you left off.. it's not up to you


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## Rich Parsons (May 25, 2016)

Mark1985 said:


> Sorry but another question. If I start again after 15 years, should I restart as a white belt or carry on where I left off? I will need to relearn most of the patterns (poomse or kata or whatever they are called in the MA you practise), and most of the kicks/blocks/punches. I will probs pick them up quicker than most newbies but should u just pick up at where I left off or start affresh? Or does it depend on the school?



If someone had a blackbelt from my club or from someone I knew and respected in the art, I allow them to wear the blackbelt and pick up the things they have lost. I also let them wear a white belt , and make it their option. I have had a few do this and most have chosen the white belt right away, and the one that did not, switched to a white belt within a month of classes. 

Color belts out a short period of time a few months for life issue can wear the same belt rank they had. They usually end up spending time getting back up to speed on what they are supposed to know. If a decade or so, and colored belt the answer for me, would be you start as a white belt.


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## pgsmith (May 25, 2016)

Danny T said:


> So your instructor nor anyone else cannot tell what students need to work on? It is only because of the belt rank structure? Come on now.



  I never said, or even suggested, those words. You don't get to speak for me or put words into my mouth unless you're willing to stick your hand up my backside and move my mouth for me. 



Danny T said:


> Even within belt rankings those who are on the floor and who train on a regular basis knows who is skilled or not and what areas need to be worked on. The belt has nothing to do with that.



  You seem to be very caught up in your "anti-belt" campaign. Not sure why, but everyone has to have their causes I suppose.. Based upon your responses, it seems pretty obvious to me that you either didn't read, or didn't bother to try and understand, what I wrote. I'm terribly glad that you are able to work out in the same class where everyone is familiar with the skill level of everyone else. Congratulations, it is a tight-knit and wonderfully insightful group you work with. However, your fish is not the same as my apple, no matter how much you wish to rant about them both being food.


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## Danny T (May 25, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> I never said, or even suggested, those words. You don't get to speak for me or put words into my mouth unless you're willing to stick your hand up my backside and move my mouth for me.


What? Didn't put any words in your mouth but did ask a question.



pgsmith said:


> You seem to be very caught up in your "anti-belt" campaign. Not sure why, but everyone has to have their causes I suppose.. Based upon your responses, it seems pretty obvious to me that you either didn't read, or didn't bother to try and understand, what I wrote. I'm terribly glad that you are able to work out in the same class where everyone is familiar with the skill level of everyone else. Congratulations, it is a tight-knit and wonderfully insightful group you work with. However, your fish is not the same as my apple, no matter how much you wish to rant about them both being food.


Very caught up in my Anti-belt campaign. ???

I simply disagree that students, who actually train, would be confused. 
Where am I "ranting"?
As to belts, we do use them in some of the other arts we provide instruction and training. I disagree that the belt or lack there of will be confusing for students or the instructors. And that has nothing to do with fish, apples, or any other type of food.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2016)

jks9199 said:


> Talk to your instructor.  He'll know where he wants you -- and why.


*THIS! *

It doesn't really matter what you think or want, never mind what a bunch of forumites think.  It will be what your *instructor* wants and for *his* reasons.  Talk to him.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> If it were me I'd feel more comfortable starting again with a white belt, I'd be worried about making a fool of myself if I wore a former grade and couldn't do/remember it. I'd rather be thought of as a quick learner because I'd done it before lol. Seriously though, I'd be more relaxed about training without any pressure to live up to a grade I had a while back.


How does that dovetail with your position on letting kids wear rank from their previous school?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> If it were me I'd feel more comfortable starting again with a white belt, I'd be worried about making a fool of myself if I wore a former grade and couldn't do/remember it. I'd rather be thought of as a quick learner because I'd done it before lol. Seriously though, I'd be more relaxed about training without any pressure to live up to a grade I had a while back.





lklawson said:


> How does that dovetail with your position on letting kids wear rank from their previous school?



Pretty well, I would think. Probably because we do the same. We let people from other systems wear their rank if they want. They just cannot promote until they learn our curriculum up to the new rank.
Now, me personally... I'm strapping on a white belt if I'm there as a student. If I'm just visiting (if I'm just checking a place out, I am probably in street clothes, sitting in the spectator area), or 'guest teaching' (if I'm asked to teach, I'm guessing my rank in what is being taught is actually pertinent), or something, that's different. But if I'm there as a student, I'm wearing my rank in THAT system.
Unless... if I go to a BJJ class, do you think the stripes on my belt will cause lower ranks to freeze up, instead of twisting me up?

It's been my experience that people who don't want to wear the white belt again generally don't stick around anyway.


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## Azulx (May 26, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd rather wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than wear a black belt and have people wonder why.



This is literally one of my favorite quotes taht I read over and over on here. Along with I can call a grenade a biscuit, but wouldn't put it in the oven. 



Danny T said:


> Has nothing to do with knowing where people are skill wise or what they need to work on.
> 
> So your instructor nor anyone else cannot tell what students need to work on? It is only because of the belt rank structure? Come on now.
> Even within belt rankings those who are on the floor and who train on a regular basis knows who is skilled or not and what areas need to be worked on. The belt has nothing to do with that.



As far as rank I have all kinds of feelings about this, but one can easily tell skill levels in a school. I honestly think ranks can be deceiving if that is the "only" thing you go by. I am a 2nd geup about to test for 1st, and some 8th and 7th geups give me a run during sparring. Although I'm supposed to "keep in consideration" what rank they are, some yellow belts are simply just skilled beyond that level. So ranks mean something to me , to me they are  representation of all the hard work I have put in. They have nothing to do with my ability. When it comes to evaluating my fellow student's skill levels I think the piece of cloth holding up their gi is useless. There are yellow belts who's abilities are up to par with our blue belts, I expect them to be at the blue belt level, not lower themselves to a standard they have clearly overcome.


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> How does that dovetail with your position on letting kids wear rank from their previous school?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk




Ok lets go over this again.

They wear their belt from their previous place while they start at the beginning of our syllabus, as soon as they take their first grading with us they wear our belt. We don't strip them of their old belt the minute they walk in our door, they can wear it while they learn our style. I am an adult so  different standards apply. They are children who have just moved to our location often from another country, they have just left their friends, their schools and their previous lives behind so why make life yet more anxious by stripping them of their lowly belts for a white belt. We never have high grades coming it and they never stay long enough with us to get a high grade so if they wear a low coloured belt for a couple of months what difference does it make to anyone and why are you so hung up on this?


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## Tez3 (May 27, 2016)

The link is about American military children, ours are exactly the same though. I don't see what difference it makes letting kids keep a belt they earned at another school for a couple of months while they learn our style. You can have a rant all you like but we do what is best for the children who come to us, it's not about cossetting them or pandering to parents. They earnt a belt in another place so there is no harm in letting them wear it until they grade in our style and can swap it for one of ours. We don't have hundreds of children, I know each of ours very well, I know their parents and I know very well the life style having lived it myself for many years. If you don't like what we do, I really don't care. What I do care about is the children, they are what matter not people on a forums opinion.
Military Children Face Greater Academic Challenges Due To Relocation And Emotional Stress


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## Dirty Dog (May 28, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The link is about American military children, ours are exactly the same though. I don't see what difference it makes letting kids keep a belt they earned at another school for a couple of months while they learn our style. You can have a rant all you like but we do what is best for the children who come to us, it's not about cossetting them or pandering to parents. They earnt a belt in another place so there is no harm in letting them wear it until they grade in our style and can swap it for one of ours. We don't have hundreds of children, I know each of ours very well, I know their parents and I know very well the life style having lived it myself for many years. If you don't like what we do, I really don't care. What I do care about is the children, they are what matter not people on a forums opinion.
> Military Children Face Greater Academic Challenges Due To Relocation And Emotional Stress



I hadn't thought about it before, but I think our attitude towards kids and belts is fairly wide spread. My childhood training was at various military bases, and although after decades my memory of details has no doubt faded, I do not recall ever being told I couldn't keep whatever belt I came in wearing.


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## lklawson (May 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You can have a rant all you like


WTF?!?  You make a statement which apparently contradicts an earlier stated position, I *politely *ask you to clarify, and *this *is the response?!?


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## lklawson (May 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Ok lets go over this again.


No. Let's don't. All I asked was how your apparently contradictory statements fit together. If you can answer without trying to start a fight then do so. I got no time for it otherwise.


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## Tez3 (May 30, 2016)

I have said the same thing all along. You seem to think it's a contradiction, it isn't. I don't know why you've dragged this up. *The position is the same as I stated then*, the *children of the service personnel who come in *keep their belt while learning our syllabus then they grade and have one of our belts. it really is simple, you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about this. I am talking about children, not adults who in our club do not grade nor wear belts. As far as I can see this is also a fairly common practice outside our club as well.

I find that you 'dislike' a report on how service children cope with constant movement etc distasteful, do you also dislike your service personnel, is that it?


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## Tez3 (May 30, 2016)

I'm away for the next week on Brownie Pack Holiday so hopefully to put an end to this absurd farce this is what happens.
Parent brings child to club. Child is wearing a yellow belt. it is explained to* both* that
1. the child can wear their belt while training our syllabus *from the beginning.*
2. the child will grade in our style
3. the child will be given the belt from our style that they have earnt.
4. hopefully happy parent and child who has been encouraged to continue training.
At any one time we'll have 10-12 children of ages ranging from 7-12, we never have more though we have room for them. We are a small club, we aren't for profit, we aim to give children a wide experience of other styles. We also aim, while they are with us, to be a constant in their lives which are rarely constant.
I really don't see what is wrong with any of this and why it is attracting such ire. This is what  I have said before and it's not different from what I posted before. Hopefully this is now Endex.


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## lklawson (May 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I have said the same thing all along. You seem to think it's a contradiction, it isn't.


Which is kinda why I asked.  It sure looks contradictory to me but I wanted you to explain rather than just assume what your position was.  It still looks contradictory to me, but I didn't make assumptions about your position.



> I don't know why you've dragged this up.


Because it seems contradictory and I am a curious guy.



> *The position is the same as I stated then*, the *children of the service personnel who come in *keep their belt while learning our syllabus then they grade and have one of our belts. it really is simple, you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about this. I am talking about children, not adults who in our club do not grade nor wear belts. As far as I can see this is also a fairly common practice outside our club as well.


How common the practice is says nothing about whether or not it is "right."  I'm sure you can think of many practices which are now, or have been in the past, very common but which you still consider "wrong."  Argumentum ad populum.



> I find that you 'dislike' a report on how service children cope with constant movement etc distasteful, do you also dislike your service personnel, is that it?


Nice, irrelevant, personal attack.  Perhaps you'd like to question my manhood and penis size too.


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## lklawson (May 31, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I'm away for the next week on Brownie Pack Holiday so hopefully to put an end to this absurd farce this is what happens.
> Parent brings child to club. Child is wearing a yellow belt. it is explained to* both* that
> 1. the child can wear their belt while training our syllabus *from the beginning.*
> 2. the child will grade in our style
> ...


Irrelevant to the question.

You stated a position, further reiterated above, that kids get to wear the belt from their previous martial art in your school.

You also stated in this thread that an adult should suck it up and put on a white belt when starting a new martial art.

These two positions still seem to be contradictory.  The only difference is that your position is, "Well, it's OK to do it for kids because if we make them wear a white belt again, it'll hurt their feelings."

That's your position.  It doesn't make me angry.  I don't have any "ire" in relation to that.  Please stop deliberately mischaracterize.  What does raise my "ire" is the deliberate mischaracterization and personal attacks.  Either your position can be logically defended or not.  Mischaracterizing *my* positions (such as claiming that I was "ranting" in this thread) is typically viewed as attempting to hide a weak position.

When you argue, argue from the *FACTS*.

Nevertheless, I wasn't asking for a recitation of your prior argument.  I was asking why you don't see your two opposing positions on putting on a white belt again as contradictory.  Do you have any other reason than, 'because one position is children'?


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## Tony Dismukes (May 31, 2016)

lklawson said:


> I was asking why you don't see your two opposing positions on putting on a white belt again as contradictory. Do you have any other reason than, 'because one position is children'?


Not to put words in Tez's mouth, but I think I can see her point (even if I don't totally agree with it).

For adults, the belt is merely an indication of where they are at in a given system and has no intrinsic value beyond that. For that reason, she would not feel the need to wear her existing rank in one system when starting another.

For children, the belt has more emotional value as an external validation of the work they have done along the way. For children who come through the training hall for a short time before they have to move again and are participating in the training as a social activity, the ability to retain the emotional reassurance of that prior validation while they are adapting to their new social group is more important than it should be for an adult.

Not saying it's the way I would do things, but I absolutely think you can make a non-self-contradictory argument for treating children differently from adults in this situation.


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## lklawson (May 31, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not saying it's the way I would do things, but I absolutely think you can make a non-self-contradictory argument for treating children differently from adults in this situation.


Not saying that a non-self-contradictory argument can't be made.  Just asking for the reasoning.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2016)

FFS, the reason is that the kid's parents are out fighting for their country, losing limbs and being blown up, the kids get abuse and bullying off civvy kids, they move every two to three years, leaving schools, friends and clubs, they often don't see mum or dad for months on end, they are young children doing martial arts as a HOBBY for an hour a week so who the hell cares whether they keep their belt from a previous club or not while they learn our style,
We do this on the instructions of the Chief Instructor who has taken the advice of MOD service children's department AND WE WANT TO DO IT THIS WAY.
GET OVER IT.


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## lklawson (Jun 3, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> FFS, the reason is that the kid's parents are out fighting for their country, losing limbs and being blown up,


Wow.  I didn't realize that having a parent's limb getting blown of or dying could grant rank.




> GET OVER IT.


Gee willikers, I asked a simple and polite question about how to positions fit together and you act like it's an attack.


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2016)

You are really being an twunt aren't you. Your comment is insensitive, snide and plain nasty.
Don't play the innocent either, it was an attack plain and simple, you are also still misrepresenting what we do. The children learn our style* from scratch*, from the beginning, *from the start of the syllabus* the same as every other child would, they grade when we consider they are ready, they gain the belt appropriate to their knowledge our style. This may mean they receive a belt equal to the one they have or it may mean they get a belt under the one they have already have, rarely they get a belt that is higher than one over what they are already.
The children are on average 7-9 years old and never have a belt more than 3 into a style. They gain nothing by having a father who is an amputee, and yes we do have a boy whose father lost his leg and is still serving, the child did not get a belt higher just because of that, to suggest he would is disgusting and extremely crude.
Now as far as I'm concerned that's the end of it, I don't own you an explanation, you aren't a UK taxpayer and you are basically what is called in the army sh1t stirring.


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## Grenadier (Jun 3, 2016)

*Admin's Note:*

Thread closed, pending staff review.  

If you don't like what someone has to say, then use the ignore feature.  Nobody is forcing you to engage in a brouhaha...


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