# Is it ok for a Shidoshi to create his own rules?



## RoninX (Nov 21, 2009)

Is it?


Example:  In the Bujinkan we actually do not have any strict rules regarding what to wear in a Dojo. You can appear at the Hombu or at any of the Shihan´s Dojo without the Uwagi and no one is gonna say nothing to you. So, you can assume that there isn´t any strict rule regarding this subject.

Now my question: Is it ok for a Shidoshi to do things in a different way and actually force the students to wear the uwagi? Is it ok to a Shidoshi, representing the Bujinkan, to create rules that the Bujinkan itself hasn´t create until now?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 21, 2009)

Within the Bujinkan there has long been the debate as to how much "rules" and "standards" should be enforced by the Hombu and Hatsumi Sensei along with the Shihan. I use quotation marks as most people have different ideas on what those rules and standards should be. But the general state of being is that at the level of Shidoshi (Godan or higher) a practitioner can start their own dojo, and in a particular dojo (with the lack of general hard-and-fast rules from Hombu) it is down to the particular dojo as to the standards they apply.

If a particular Shidoshi (in their own dojo) wants to enforce higher etiquette standards in the form of uniform, that is up to them. However, as the Hombu is a different Instructors dojo (Hatsumi Soke's), the rules and standards used there should apply.

So, in short, yes they can. It's then up to the students if they want to train there, depending on if they like the rules or not. But if Hatsumi Sensei suddenly turned around and said that from this time on everyone must always wear uwagi, or keikogi and hakama, then that would be that. But to date that has not happened (aside from saying that Shihan and senior practitioners wear hakama when Takagi Ryu was the focus a few years ago... 2002, I think).


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 21, 2009)

In Genbukan, the hierarchy is pretty strict, and dojo-cho can be more strict than the rules demand. For example, while the rules specify the minimum requirements for exams like minimum amount of lessons between exams, it is the sensei who determines when you can do your exam.

Instructors can not change or go against the rules on their own authority, but they can be more strict than the Genbukan rules in some cases.


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## RoninX (Nov 21, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Within the Bujinkan there has long been the debate as to how much "rules" and "standards" should be enforced by the Hombu and Hatsumi Sensei along with the Shihan. I use quotation marks as most people have different ideas on what those rules and standards should be. But the general state of being is that at the level of Shidoshi (Godan or higher) a practitioner can start their own dojo, and in a particular dojo (with the lack of general hard-and-fast rules from Hombu) it is down to the particular dojo as to the standards they apply.
> 
> If a particular Shidoshi (in their own dojo) wants to enforce higher etiquette standards in the form of uniform, that is up to them. However, as the Hombu is a different Instructors dojo (Hatsumi Soke's), the rules and standards used there should apply.
> 
> So, in short, yes they can. It's then up to the students if they want to train there, depending on if they like the rules or not. But if Hatsumi Sensei suddenly turned around and said that from this time on everyone must always wear uwagi, or keikogi and hakama, then that would be that. But to date that has not happened (aside from saying that Shihan and senior practitioners wear hakama when Takagi Ryu was the focus a few years ago... 2002, I think).



Very nice answer. Thank you.

But  isn´t it like teaching something that doesn´t have nothing to do with the Bujinkan? Isn´t it like teaching karaté in a Budô Taijutsu class? Shouldn´t the Shidoshi´s follow the spirit that the nº1 man in the org brings to each class? Isn´t that also part of the Bujinkan? Shouldn´t be Hatsumi making the rules? How can i, inside of an org force someone to do something that the founder of the org doesn´t care about? Once representing an org that isn´t mine, shouldn´t i do what the Boss wants, instead of what i want?  And if you´re  charging money to teach "Bujinkan", shouldn´t you reproduce what the Bujinkan really is, instead of creating your own Bujinkan with your own rules?


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## Carol (Nov 21, 2009)

Keep in mind that Soke not caring about an issue is not the same as Soke requiring all shidoshi to have the same viewpoint of an issue.


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## RoninX (Nov 21, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Keep in mind that Soke not caring about an issue is not the same as Soke requiring all shidoshi to have the same viewpoint of an issue.



AFAIK he also doesn´t require the contrary. So...based on his actions, can i assume that in his mind using or not an uwagi isn´t important?


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## Carol (Nov 21, 2009)

RoninX said:


> AFAIK he also doesn´t require the contrary. So...based on his actions, can i assume that in his mind using or not an uwagi isn´t important?



Not necessarily.  Soke hasn't taken _any _position on the issue.  

That isn't the same as taking the position that the issue is unimportant. 

Its a subtle, but distinct difference.


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## RoninX (Nov 21, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Not necessarily.  Soke hasn't taken _any _position on the issue.
> 
> That isn't the same as taking the position that the issue is unimportant.
> 
> Its a subtle, but distinct difference.



I can see Soke´s acts as a position. Can´t you? When Soke and ALL his top students weara t shirt instead a uwagi, can´t you assume that is not important if you wear tshirt or uwagi? Or is everyone doing something that soke dislikes, including himself?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 21, 2009)

The problem here, Ronin, is that you are looking at this as a Westerner, and those rules just don't apply. Hatsumi Sensei's not saying anything is a very Japanese approach, and that is what Carol has been implying. The key here is going to be simple. Think like a Japanese. Okay, maybe that isn't really that simple.

Basically, not saying anything is certainly different from a Japanese perspective to not caring. And not stating a side is really not the same as choosing to ignore the importance of an issue, or of not having an opinion. It's not much clearer to explain than that, I'm afraid.

Oh, and if we're really going to get down to it, the "traditional" gi is really nothing more than the harder-wearing underkimono that would be worn to protect the more delicate fabric of the formal wear (the other origin is the utilitarian work clothes worn by working classes). So, in a way, a gi is old-style underwear. How important do you want it to be?


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## RoninX (Nov 21, 2009)

> Hatsumi Sensei's not saying anything is a very Japanese approach, and that is what Carol has been implying. The key here is going to be simple. Think like a Japanese. Okay, maybe that isn't really that simple.



And how should we interpret the fact that, for years and years, he has trained without the uwagi, and the same goes for his top Shihan?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 21, 2009)

Hi RoninX,

I want to address this post first, then we'll get to your question.



RoninX said:


> But isn´t it like teaching something that doesn´t have nothing to do with the Bujinkan? Isn´t it like teaching karaté in a Budô Taijutsu class? Shouldn´t the Shidoshi´s follow the spirit that the nº1 man in the org brings to each class? Isn´t that also part of the Bujinkan? Shouldn´t be Hatsumi making the rules? How can i, inside of an org force someone to do something that the founder of the org doesn´t care about? Once representing an org that isn´t mine, shouldn´t i do what the Boss wants, instead of what i want? And if you´re charging money to teach "Bujinkan", shouldn´t you reproduce what the Bujinkan really is, instead of creating your own Bujinkan with your own rules?


 
No, it's nothing like teaching karate in a Budo Taijutsu class. Part of the ranking of Shidoshi in the Bujinkan is that you are recognised as having enough of an understanding of the principles of the art to be able to pass it on accurately. Whether or not a jacket is worn is kinda unrelated to that. Bujinkan Shidoshi teach the Bujinkan arts, whether they are wearing a jacket or not. But within the Bujinkan they are given a greater-than-most degree of freedom as to how they do that for their students.

Part of the concept (and here is where we get Japanese for a moment) is that those that are not truly following what the Bujinkan teaches, and are not passing it on, will basically fade away themselves, and their students will either go to someone who does understand, or not. But in true Japanese Classical art fashion, the only person who needs to apply any standards/rules when it comes to the Bujinkan is Hatsumi, and possibly his successor. These arts are held in one individual at a time, everyone else is basically along for the ride. But in a very Japanese way, to point out the Shidoshi's mistakes/shortcomings can essentially bring about a "loss of face" for the Shidoshi, by extension their students, and their teachers. So to prevent that happening, it is left alone. That really cannot be taken as approval, or permission, though.

Now, as to how we interpret Hatsumi and the Shihan not wearing jackets, I really don't think there's much to interpret. If anything, I would look to the fact that Hatsumi Sensei tends to revel in his non-ordinary ways, and teaching classical arts in such an informal way is just one aspect of that. The other possible interpretation is that it doesn't matter whether you are wearing a jacket/gi or not, your skills should be there no matter what you are wearing at the time. But I don't pretend to speak for him, and the fact is that without asking him yourself, there is no way to know why he teaches without an uwagi. He could just get hot.


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## RoninX (Nov 21, 2009)

> there is no way to know why he teaches without an uwagi. He could just get hot.                                                                                                __________________


And also likes Mickey Mouse :uhyeah:
Thanks for your answer.


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## jks9199 (Nov 21, 2009)

RoninX said:


> Very nice answer. Thank you.
> 
> But  isn´t it like teaching something that doesn´t have nothing to do with the Bujinkan? Isn´t it like teaching karaté in a Budô Taijutsu class? Shouldn´t the Shidoshi´s follow the spirit that the nº1 man in the org brings to each class? Isn´t that also part of the Bujinkan? Shouldn´t be Hatsumi making the rules? How can i, inside of an org force someone to do something that the founder of the org doesn´t care about? Once representing an org that isn´t mine, shouldn´t i do what the Boss wants, instead of what i want?  And if you´re  charging money to teach "Bujinkan", shouldn´t you reproduce what the Bujinkan really is, instead of creating your own Bujinkan with your own rules?


I note that most videos I've seen of the various shihan instructing or training have them dressed in a minimum of gi pants and a t-shirt, and often in full uniform, for what it's worth.

Remember that a lot of matters of etiquette in Japan aren't explicitly stated; the culture almost naturally conforms.  So the example they set may be more telling than any rules.  And, of course, Hatsumi is free to do exactly what he wishes...  But, you may find reading over George Ohashi's page instructive...  Do read between the lines, and think about why he's saying some of the things he says.

But what does the uniform or lack thereof have to do with the quality of training?  Sure, there are times when certain clothes -- like hakama or, for me, like a gunbelt and body armor -- will influence your movements and options, but as a general rule?  Nope.  Not a big deal.  A good gi jacket may hold up to throws betters than a T-shirt, though.

Maybe I'm reading too much into your posts here -- but I suggest if you don't like the atmosphere, dojo rules, or uniform... find somewhere else to train.


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## RoninX (Nov 21, 2009)

> Maybe I'm reading too much into your posts here -- but I suggest if you don't like the atmosphere, dojo rules, or uniform... find somewhere else to train.



My question was just out of curiosity, because long time ago my ex-instructor didn´t let us train whithout a full gi.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 21, 2009)

RoninX said:


> My question was just out of curiosity, because long time ago my ex-instructor didn´t let us train whithout a full gi.


 
I've been to seminars with guys that do that too. Full Gi, Tabi, and my belt.  I don't care... I just play by thier rules while I'm there... when I get back to my home school, I go back to what I want. (Which is my Gi with the sleeve ripped of by my instructor, ratty gi pants, socks and no belt.  Or somtimes street clothes, like jeans and a hoodie)


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## RoninX (Nov 21, 2009)

I´ve seen Hatsumi train with cowboy boots.


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## lost_in_translation (Nov 22, 2009)

Hold on a second. The only "top" shihan in Japan that I see regulary wihout uwagi are Nagato and Noguchi Shihan, Seno and Oguri Shihan more often than not wear it. In the case of Someya Shihan's dojo you MUST be in full correct uniform. Kan Shihan also usually wears uwagi as well.  It is wore in Japan, it is worn at the hombu. Hatsumi sensei has said before that the uniform of the bujinkan consists of the full keikogi with kyahan and its been a long time since they have been seen. Also look at any of hatsumi senseis recent books and you will see all of the shihan in full dress, not a t shirt in sight


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## EWBell (Nov 22, 2009)

So how do people who wear only t-shirts make through class with it being shredded?  If all of the techniques of that particular class involve throws from kumiuchi, then I don't see a t-shirt lasting too long.


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## lost_in_translation (Nov 22, 2009)

They don't  it is fun to watch the mad scramble for jackets when it happens though  and when you can't grab the t shirt, you go for the flesh heehe


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## Dale Seago (Nov 23, 2009)

lost_in_translation said:


> They don't  it is fun to watch the mad scramble for jackets when it happens though  and when you can't grab the t shirt, you go for the flesh heehe



Very true. 

I'm not formal about attire in my own dojo; if it's cold we'll wear the jacket, otherwise we generally don't unless we're working on techniques that would make it desirable to avoid shredding a t-shirt. One of my dojo-class video clips on Facebook has me doing everything wearing a business suit and tie, because I was at a pre-class event that went late and I didn't feel like taking the time to change when I arrived. (The student who posted the clip called it, appropriately, "Suitable Tie-Jutsu", partly because at least once I used the tie as part of a technique while still wearing it.)

If I'm going to someone else's class (in Japan for instance), or attending some other instructor's seminar, I always bring the full uwagi and adjust to what that instructor and his own students are wearing. Likewise, if we bring in an instructor from elsewhere for a seminar, I expect my own students who may attend to bring the whole kit & caboodle and similarly adjust to that instructor's comfort level.

A core concept of ninjutsu is being able to "fit in", after all. . .


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 23, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> If I'm going to someone else's class (in Japan for instance), or attending some other instructor's seminar, I always bring the full uwagi and adjust to what that instructor and his own students are wearing. Likewise, if we bring in an instructor from elsewhere for a seminar, I expect my own students who may attend to bring the whole kit & caboodle and similarly adjust to that instructor's comfort level.
> 
> A core concept of ninjutsu is being able to "fit in", after all. . .


 
Absolutely Dale,

Fitting in and being respectful based on what another teacher expects is an excellent approach.


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## ElfTengu (Nov 29, 2009)

Isn't it bizarre really how we dress up in all that gear?

Keikogi are, and always have been, basically a reinforced or tougher version of Japanese traditional everyday clothing or undergarments, and very little adaptation to the techniques would have been required once they were back in kimono, i.e where to grab and use of lapels, sleeves and obi of an attacker.

But modern clothing, in Japan and the rest of the world, bears very little resemblance to keikogi, which should probably more resemble jeans and casualwear if the same adaptability is desirable. I guess it's about tradition and preserving the historical as much as anything.

Olympic judo would look very odd if the participants wore jeans and denim jackets or canvas facsimilies of business suits!


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 29, 2009)

True to some point. In Genbukan, the dress code is strict. Personally I think it is a good idea though. It is one of the ways to instill structure in a relatively large group of people.

And one of the things is the traditionalist aspect. In order to learn some of the traditional forms, the gi is required to be able to do so. More to the point: the forms that require a gi can easily be translated to leather jackets or business suit. Ergo the gi is still useful, as are the forms requiring it.


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## ElfTengu (Nov 30, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> More to the point: the forms that require a gi can easily be translated to leather jackets or business suit. Ergo the gi is still useful, as are the forms requiring it.


 
It's not all Marlon Brando or George Michael. Getting a grip on this is a lot harder than getting hold of someone's gi (especially with my natural padding making it even tighter!)

http://images.onlinecommercegroup.com/images/medium/leather-jacket-sample.jpg

or this equally leathery surface:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0LErihJE5u8/R5KS2iArikI/AAAAAAAAAPI/NqRErklbebc/s320/ken-shamrock.jpg


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