# Help: black/white dot focus?



## MinnieMin (Aug 23, 2002)

What does Black Dot Focus and White Dot Focus represent? 

Thanks,
Min


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## Rainman (Aug 23, 2002)

Black dot focus represents awareness at all times.  White dot focus is similar to tunel vision.   That is keeping the person in front of you in focus vs. the background.


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## MinnieMin (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *Black dot focus represents awareness at all times.  White dot focus is similar to tunel vision.   That is keeping the person in front of you in focus vs. the background. *



It's clear now.  Thanks, Rainman.

Min :asian:


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## Rainman (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MinnieMin _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



You're welcom, the universal pattern in black form represents black dot focus as well.  Something else for you to consider while doing high amounts of repitition.

:asian:


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## Doc (Aug 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Additionally if I may, the white dot focus represents a more traditional perspective seen in Okinawan/Japanese arts that still perpetuate the "one punch kill" and the "pull back" hand placed on the hip for "percieved power." (Incorrectly applied action versus reaction)

Total concentration on the "white dot" and oblivious to the surrounding elements and additional offense threat of the "black background."


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## Wes Idol (Sep 4, 2002)

And as a final beating of this horse.........which two have already offered great points on (RC and Rainman), I would also add how black dot focus keeps us able to deal with the two types of strikes we are concerned with in American Kenpo........intentional and unintentional.  While you have just chopped down one tree, the falling trunk cause make another one to come crashing down......environmental awareness is #1. 

Respectfully, 

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems 
http://www.uks-kenpo.com


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## Elfan (Dec 1, 2002)

If black represents what we are not paying attention too (everything but what we are trying to hit in white dot focus) then doesn't that imply that in black dot focus we arn't paying attention to the palce we are striking?


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 2, 2002)

As I see it, it represents an awareness of what can come next, be it a reaction or another strike, or maybe another oponent.


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## Doc (Dec 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> 
> *If black represents what we are not paying attention too (everything but what we are trying to hit in white dot focus) then doesn't that imply that in black dot focus we arn't paying attention to the palce we are striking? *



Only if you choose to re-defined what has already been conceptually explained by the progenitor.

If you, in fact, embrace the concept then you take it in its totality. The idea of this "biblical parable" is to simply teach  that you should not totally focus on either, and that they both are important within the context of the application and to completely focus on one to the exclusion of the other is counter-productive to the objective sir.


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## cdhall (Dec 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *If black represents what we are not paying attention too (everything but what we are trying to hit in white dot focus) then doesn't that imply that in black dot focus we arn't paying attention to the palce we are striking? *



To continue beating a dead horse, and perhaps to confuse Elfan a bit more by agreeing with him to a certain extent...

I didn't have it quite this way from Mr. Duffy but it may be because I am misinterpreting it, so here is how I thought of it and I'd appreciate some input.

Consistent with Doc's post, I had it as an illustration of how EPAK differs from some traditional "one punch" arts/philosophies.

I also had it as White Dot focus is Tunnel Vision on the white dot ignoring the Black area whereas Black Dot focus is pretty much ignoring the specifics of the Black Dot and remaining aware of the White area (sort of the inverse if you will).  The White area is what you are aware of/paying the most attention to.  This is pretty much how I remember it being taught to me.  I think it could be like if you are running for a touchdown in (American/NFL) football.  Are you looking at the guy/tackle you are about to slip, or are you looking at the hole behind him that you are trying to get to once you are past him?

I always thought Black Dot focus could mean that if you know where the Solar Plexis is for example, then there is not reason to fixate on it/stare at it... (like my football analogy) and that being aware of the White Dot/surrounding area you will strike to the zone/area of the solar plexis when you have a clear shot.  You know where you need to get to, so make your move when you get a chance.  This football thing seems to be working OK, I put it in after I hit Preview Post if you are curious.  So this is sort of a re-write.

You know where the target is.  We have tracking, complimentary angles, guidelining, etc to help us get there so at some point it is a foregone conclusion that if you know generally where it is, you can hit it and this leave you free to worry about how to get there while checking off whatever might be in the way or come flying at you after the strike.

That's how I see it.  Does this make sense to you all?  I think it is consistent with previous posts. :asian:


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 26, 2002)

Sure it does


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 26, 2002)

It's probably better thought of in the original terms--they're in "Infinite Insights," and "Encyclopedia of Kenpo"--as black dot/white circle vs. white dot/black circle focus. In the former, you let the point you're hitting kind of take care of itself, "focusing," instead on the surround; in the latter, you only see the center of attention and ignore the surround.

So far, all the discussion has simply repeated what's already written down, including the stuff about different martial arts styles and their approach to focus. Shotokan, for example, would typically be a "white dot/black circle," art; kenpo, the other way around, close to the sort of, "soft focus," I've read about in some discussions of aikido, and other, "internal," arts.

Two things occur in addition, though. First: doesn't kenpo practice actually emphasize both? I certainly know that when I'm hitting, say, a bag, I try to make the rest of the world go bye-bye--and much the same when I'm teaching. Second, this probably reflects my limitations.

But above all: to me, the real question is: what do we actually do with this info? Seems to me that too often, we get the terminology right and then figure, well, now I've got it. The terminology is more-properly used, I think, to define mistakes and progress, or to explain what you've actually learned on the mat. And if you're teaching, question is, how do you get students to progress  in terms of focus. Personally, I alternate between whacking a bag, doing sets, or sparring ("white dot/black circle") and teaching or doing forms (black dot/white circle)...I think.


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## Brother John (Dec 26, 2002)

> But above all: to me, the real question is: what do we actually do with this info? Seems to me that too often, we get the terminology right and then figure, well, now I've got it. The terminology is more-properly used, I think, to define mistakes and progress, or to explain what you've actually learned on the mat. And if you're teaching, question is, how do you get students to progress in terms of focus. Personally, I alternate between whacking a bag, doing sets, or sparring ("white dot/black circle") and teaching or doing forms (black dot/white circle)...I think.



Again, a very good point Robert.
I think that it's a little bit like the lesson we learned in driver's-ed, you want to look at where you are driving the most, but you still need to be sensitive to what's in the mirrors. You scan w/your eyes up and down the road before you, but if you see antlers in the ditch then your focus needs to change quickly. I don't think that it needs to be a "focus vs. ignore" zones, but a focus and sense... while you are focusing on the white dot, you still want to be sensitive to the black surrounding it... and vice-versa, when scanning your environment don't forget the slugger before ya!
I'd have to agree Rob, we must alternate... but it's not an all or nothing thing either.
Good food for thought!
Your Brother (pass the tatters)
John


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## cdhall (Dec 26, 2002)

Brother John and McRobertson:

We are in agreement right?


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## Brother John (Dec 27, 2002)

> I think it could be like if you are running for a touchdown in (American/NFL) football. Are you looking at the guy/tackle you are about to slip, or are you looking at the hole behind him that you are trying to get to once you are past him?



I especially like this analogy of yours. Very picturesque for those of us who have carried the pig-hide over the white lines!

Yeah, I think we are in agreement.
Happens a lot when intelligent people discuss things.  
Your Brother
John


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## cdhall (Dec 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *I especially like this analogy of yours. Very picturesque for those of us who have carried the pig-hide over the white lines!
> 
> Yeah, I think we are in agreement.
> ...



Thanks.  I was not sure if you guys were going on in spite of me or not.   

I'm not very good at Math and I've never played football really so I'm glad these analogies are working out OK.  I always strive for stuff like this in class and I like to confirm with someone as to whether it works or not.  Mr. Parker was right.  They are very useful.


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## D.Cobb (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Additionally if I may, the white dot focus represents a more traditional perspective seen in Okinawan/Japanese arts that still perpetuate the "one punch kill" and the "pull back" hand placed on the hip for "percieved power." (Incorrectly applied action versus reaction)
> 
> Total concentration on the "white dot" and oblivious to the surrounding elements and additional offense threat of the "black background." *



Actually Doc, the power perspective is Japanese, the Okinawan perspective is that when the fist is at the hip, it signifies a grappling type of move. Least ways that's what we're taught in Ryukyu Kempo!

--Dave

:asian:


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## Doc (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Actually Doc, the power perspective is Japanese, the Okinawan perspective is that when the fist is at the hip, it signifies a grappling type of move. Least ways that's what we're taught in Ryukyu Kempo!
> 
> --Dave
> ...


Of course that was a generalization sir. The Okinawan Arts are to the japanese Arts as jiujitsu is to ju-do. However I have seen some Okinawan stylist also teach a similar perpsective to the Japanese without the clear understanding of the reason for the hand "pulling." You are of course correct. The concept of the hand "chambering" at the hip for power is purely from the Japanese "do" arts. The actions themselves may look the same, but philosophically are different when the perspective is function rather than artistically driven.


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