# Taijiquan - Quick and possibly meaningless post, with a short, unverified, story



## Xue Sheng (Jan 18, 2022)

Assuming this knee ever recovers, when all is said and done, I may be a Sun Taijiquan/Northern Wu Taijiquan guy. I tend to get tired of Yang from time to time and even though I have not done much for over 6 months now, I am still not thrilled about returning to it.

I am slowly coming back working on Sun style, which by the way has considerably more obvious applications based on the individual postures with surprising similarities to JKD and not so surprising similarities to Xingyiquan. And I have always been drawn to Wu style, I later found out it was Northern Wu. When I first started Taijiquan, with my first shifu, I was doing Yang, then some Chen, then my Shifu taught us a Wu competition form. I eventually had to stop doing it because I could not separate it from Chen or Yang. I'd start Yang and somewhere the postures switched to Wu and the same happened with Chen as well. Never had that problem with Yang crossing over to Chen or Chen to Yang.

I seriously doubt I could do any Northern Wu at the moment. Tried some of my Traditional Yang last night and I got only as far as 'cross hands' after the first 'Apparent Closing', then my knee said..."you're done", and it was wrapped in an Ace bandage at the time too. 

However I will say this, I do tend to agree with my Yang Shifu (second shifu) that Wu is not exactly taijiquan. It tends to not follow the 10 essentials form Yang Chengfu all that closely. There is a story my Shifu told about Wu; the Wu family was Manchu and the Yang family was Han. So when Yang Luchan (or possibly Yang Banhou) taught the Wu family, they only taught the defensive moves since they did not want to teach a conqueror (aka enemy) anything they could use against them...and telling an imperial guard no might not have been a healthy thing to do at that time (Qing Dynasty).Therefore my Yang Shifu does not think Wu is any good at offense, but very good at defense. 

However he forgets one thing, the Wu family, at that time, were imperial guards, they already knew how to fight rather well and could very easily attack, possibly not with Taijiquan, but they knew how to attack. My thinking, is, since this is the case, it could be why Wu taijiquan does not follow the 10 essentials all that closely and also why I tend to think of it as not quite taijiquan.

But, regardless, what I end up doing is all speculation and highly dependant on this knee finally working as I was told it would.


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## Yeung (Feb 1, 2022)

Are you pushing forward with your rear leg, and contract your rear leg when you move back?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2022)

Yeung said:


> Are you pushing forward with your rear leg, and contract your rear leg when you move back?



not doing much of anything at the moment, the knee is still not recovered. Had a total knee replacement and the quad just does not want to wake up.


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## Yeung (Feb 1, 2022)

What about your glutes and hamstrings to mobilise your hip joints?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2022)

Yeung said:


> What about your glutes and hamstrings to mobilise your hip joints?



I am currently recovering from surgery and focusing on Physical therapy stretches and exercises. These exercises focus on all muscles and joints of the legs


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## Yeung (Feb 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am currently recovering from surgery and focusing on Physical therapy stretches and exercises. These exercises focus on all muscles and joints of the legs


I think you can utilise your eccentric strength of your glutes and hamstrings that is all, as they are not affected by your operation that is all. Taijiquan practitioners should know about the rotation of the crotch to move forward and backward by stretching the glutes and hamstrings.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2022)

Yeung said:


> I think you can utilise your eccentric strength of your glutes and hamstrings that is all, as they are not affected by your operation that is all. Taijiquan practitioners should know about the rotation of the crotch to move forward and backward by stretching the glutes and hamstrings.



Yes yes yes...been at taijiquan for 30 years..... but none of that works properly for taijiquan if the knee is still swelling and the quad is not firing and the IT band is so tight is not allowing the knee cap to move properly


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes yes yes...been at taijiquan for 30 years..... but none of that works properly for taijiquan if the knee is still swelling and the quad is not firing and the IT band is so tight is not allowing the knee cap to move properly


Did they give you a poly insert on the patella during your total knee arthroplasty? I have assisted in well over a hundred total knee surgeries so I’m curious what version you got.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes yes yes...been at taijiquan for 30 years..... but none of that works properly for taijiquan if the knee is still swelling and the quad is not firing and the IT band is so tight is not allowing the knee cap to move properly


I know you practice Tai Chi Chuan but what other styles did you practice previously?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Yeung said:


> I think you can utilise your eccentric strength of your glutes and hamstrings that is all, as they are not affected by your operation that is all. Taijiquan practitioners should know about the rotation of the crotch to move forward and backward by stretching the glutes and hamstrings.


What styles of CMA do you practice?


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## Yeung (Feb 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What styles of CMA do you practice?


Non-concentric Martial Arts


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 2, 2022)

Yeung said:


> Non-concentric Martial Arts


What is that exactly?


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## mograph (Feb 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes yes yes...been at taijiquan for 30 years..... but none of that works properly for taijiquan if the knee is still swelling and the quad is not firing and the IT band is so tight is not allowing the knee cap to move properly


Have the PTs hooked up your quads to one of those electric machines (Doctor Ho!) that zap your quad to make it contract? I had it for a bit, and I understand it's decent therapy if you can't use the knee.

As for the taijiquan, is there any Hao available near you? Longshot, I know, but the TCM doc who I did zhan zhuang with recommended it.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes yes yes...been at taijiquan for 30 years..... but none of that works properly for taijiquan if the knee is still swelling and the quad is not firing and the IT band is so tight is not allowing the knee cap to move properly


Here's my lame attempt to cheer you up.  There is kung fu beyond a busted knee.  Some people consider it meta, next level stuff.


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## Yeung (Feb 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What is that exactly?


BIOMECHANICS OF NON-CONCENTRIC MARTIAL ARTS YEUNG, Y. UNITED KINGDOM PANGRATION ATHLIMA FEDERATION

INTRODUCTION: Non-concentric Martial Arts are those arts that claim to be not using any concentric muscle contraction or known as “brute force” by the practitioners of Internal Chinese Martial Arts. The aim of this research project is to identify and validate the various non-concentric techniques in Martial Arts. Non-concentric techniques are those movements using eccentric muscle contraction and restored muscle elasticity according to the Yin Yang theory of passive and active muscles actions.
METHODS: The research methodology is qualitative exploratory with a panel of long time practitioners and teachers of Taijiquan, Qigong , and other exercise and martial arts. The non-concentric techniques were identified from the review of literatures and videos, and discussions in various internet forums. The panel of experts verified these techniques by practice, observation, and discussion to ascertain their consistency and can be correctly performed by anyone.
RESULTS: The result is established a list of techniques identified and verified as follows: passive stances with various distribution of body weight; rotation of the crotch in moving between forward stance and backward stance; movements of the ribcage which included open, close, ascent and decent; push and pull by arm rotation; connection and coordination between joints; transitions between movements.
CONCLUSION: This research project enabled further research in isolated muscle activities for performance enhancement with eccentric muscle strength and muscle elasticity.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Yeung said:


> BIOMECHANICS OF NON-CONCENTRIC MARTIAL ARTS YEUNG, Y. UNITED KINGDOM PANGRATION ATHLIMA FEDERATION
> 
> INTRODUCTION: Non-concentric Martial Arts are those arts that claim to be not using any concentric muscle contraction or known as “brute force” by the practitioners of Internal Chinese Martial Arts. The aim of this research project is to identify and validate the various non-concentric techniques in Martial Arts. Non-concentric techniques are those movements using eccentric muscle contraction and restored muscle elasticity according to the Yin Yang theory of passive and active muscles actions.
> METHODS: The research methodology is qualitative exploratory with a panel of long time practitioners and teachers of Taijiquan, Qigong , and other exercise and martial arts. The non-concentric techniques were identified from the review of literatures and videos, and discussions in various internet forums. The panel of experts verified these techniques by practice, observation, and discussion to ascertain their consistency and can be correctly performed by anyone.
> ...


Thank you.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2022)

mograph said:


> Have the PTs hooked up your quads to one of those electric machines (Doctor Ho!) that zap your quad to make it contract? I had it for a bit, and I understand it's decent therapy if you can't use the knee.
> 
> As for the taijiquan, is there any Hao available near you? Longshot, I know, but the TCM doc who I did zhan zhuang with recommended it.



Yes, several times...I did not enjoy it


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I know you practice Tai Chi Chuan but what other styles did you practice previously?



Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Sanda, Shaolin Long fist, a dash of Wing Chun, and a dash of JKD....go back further you get into Japanese Jujutsu and pre-olympic TKD....there are a few others I have tried, but they never amounted to much. But mostly Taijiquan and XIngyiquan....prior to the knee issues that is all it was...Yang Taijiquan, Hebei XIngyiquan.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Did they give you a poly insert on the patella during your total knee arthroplasty? I have assisted in well over a hundred total knee surgeries so I’m curious what version you got.



You know, I'm not sure...I need to ask the MD. All I remember him saying after the surgery was my knee cap was shot.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes, several times...I did not enjoy it


Painful. Had it when I tore my pelvic ligament. It made my butt cheek climb up my back.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> You know, I'm not sure...I need to ask the MD. All I remember him saying after the surgery was my knee cap was shot.


You probably got a poly insert on the inner surface.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Sanda, Shaolin Long fist, a dash of Wing Chun, and a dash of JKD....go back further you get into Japanese Jujutsu and pre-olympic TKD....there are a few others I have tried, but they never amounted to much. But mostly Taijiquan and XIngyiquan....prior to the knee issues that is all it was...Yang Taijiquan, Hebei XIngyiquan.


Who did you learn Baguazhang and Yang Tai chi with?


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## mograph (Feb 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes, several times...I did not enjoy it


Well, I thought it was weird, but (cough) are we supposed to enjoy all therapies? My TCM doc leaned into me with his sharp elbow, and it was excruciating, like acupuncture between my toes, but it felt good when he stopped, and fixed the problem.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Who did you learn Baguazhang and Yang Tai chi with?


Baguazhang a few different teachers, but I never completely learned an entire style. I learned 8 palm Yin, 8 Palm Cheng and a swimming dragon form that may have been Jiang. 

Yang Taijiquan is with one teacher who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh in Hong Kong.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2022)

mograph said:


> Well, I thought it was weird, but (cough) are we supposed to enjoy all therapies? My TCM doc leaned into me with his sharp elbow, and it was excruciating, like acupuncture between my toes, but it felt good when he stopped, and fixed the problem.


My wife, my TCM doc, is doing cupping, all over my upper thigh and a whole lot on the IT Band. I also get acupuncture.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Baguazhang a few different teachers, but I never completely learned an entire style. I learned 8 palm Yin, 8 Palm Cheng and a swimming dragon form that may have been Jiang.
> 
> Yang Taijiquan is with one teacher who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh in Hong Kong.


Thank you. My friend Jess O Brien learned from Luo and Kumar. He taught in Oakland for 10 years but now he is back up here training Wing Woo Gar again. Trying to get him to teach again has been challenging.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thank you. My friend Jess O Brien learned from Luo and Kumar. He taught in Oakland for 10 years but now he is back up here training Wing Woo Gar again. Trying to get him to teach again has been challenging.



One of my teachers trained a bit with Kumar


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> One of my teachers trained a bit with Kumar


Checkout this old video. Lin wan and tiger and butterfly sword. https://YouTube/Dp39GZ7yCrw


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 3, 2022)

mograph said:


> Well, I thought it was weird, but (cough) are we supposed to enjoy all therapies? My TCM doc leaned into me with his sharp elbow, and it was excruciating, like acupuncture between my toes, but it felt good when he stopped, and fixed the problem.


I learned how to enjoy deep tissue massage from quite a few trained pros.  Hurts so good.

It's all about the breathing, just like giving birth.  Almost.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I learned how to enjoy deep tissue massage from quite a few trained pros.  Hurts so good.
> 
> It's all about the breathing, just like giving birth.  Almost.


Or eight hour tattoo sessions. I have hundreds of hours of breathing through tattoo. Nothing like birth but definitely can get my attention, especially after hour six.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 3, 2022)

A Tai Chi master, a priest, and a rabbi walk into a bar.

Each takes a seat.  The rabbi and the priest at the bar, the master sits at a table alone.  A waitress comes around and asks each what they'll be having.

_"tequila, blanco".

"vodka on ice".

"water is fine"._

Who said what? 




























Taijiquan master said all three, his knee broken.


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## letsplaygames (Feb 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Assuming this knee ever recovers, when all is said and done, I may be a Sun Taijiquan/Northern Wu Taijiquan guy. I tend to get tired of Yang from time to time and even though I have not done much for over 6 months now, I am still not thrilled about returning to it.
> 
> I am slowly coming back working on Sun style, which by the way has considerably more obvious applications based on the individual postures with surprising similarities to JKD and not so surprising similarities to Xingyiquan. And I have always been drawn to Wu style, I later found out it was Northern Wu. When I first started Taijiquan, with my first shifu, I was doing Yang, then some Chen, then my Shifu taught us a Wu competition form. I eventually had to stop doing it because I could not separate it from Chen or Yang. I'd start Yang and somewhere the postures switched to Wu and the same happened with Chen as well. Never had that problem with Yang crossing over to Chen or Chen to Yang.
> 
> ...


 

Hao, Wu and Chen Fu's "Yang" family style are all the same thing.... i.e. When it comes to Yang Lu Chan's   style....  and highly likely various snap shots in time of Yang lu Chan's Quan fa. (fist methods) 

all of them... practice Ba Men is a similar fashion  

You got Yang Lu Chan teaching Wu Yuxaing, then Wu going back to the Chen village... then result ... a style the mimics Yang Chen Fu's (Yang Family style) in form and function.. same kind of structure, same/ number of movements. etc etc  Second.. You have an aging Lu Chan and his son teaching Wu Quanyou, The result: a style that mimics Hao, and Chen Fu's Yang style.... again in form and function, number of movements etc..   Last you have  Yang Shao-p'eng ...  son of Yang Bon Hou teaching Chen Fu and Shou Hou.  the results Chen Fu's art mimicking Hao and Wu style in form and function, same amount of moves etc etc.

People who  think Chen Fu was never martial a martial art, need to read stories of him teaching Chen Man Ching, or look into Dong Style Taijiquan in the 1950s

Personally I scoff and styles that claim they are the old Yang lu Chan style... always the linage is mired in haze... second cousin of a second cousin kept the real art alive yada yada yada ... pure BS IMO. 

The legit linage of all three aside... 
the fact they practice the Ba-men all the same.. and the distillation of methods down to legit high % number of applications (FYI distilling an art down to only workable methods was huge in TCMA in the 1800s).. leads me to believe that these are the real Yang Lu Chan style.. (just different interpretations...)   

It's unfortunate that practioner and the average joe can not separate the cultural ambassadorship that accompanies these arts from the martial prowess they can teach.  large part art of it... are rainbow warriors attempting to culturally appropriate Han culture...   


I'm not a Tajiquan practioner... but I have an astute eye for the practical and martial prowess... I see massive capabilities in all three Taijiquan styles


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 11, 2022)

letsplaygames said:


> Hao, Wu and Chen Fu's "Yang" family style are all the same thing.... i.e. When it comes to Yang Lu Chan's   style....  and highly likely various snap shots in time of Yang lu Chan's Quan fa. (fist methods)
> 
> all of them... practice Ba Men is a similar fashion
> 
> ...



I'm in the Tung Ying Chieh Lineage...which is where Dong style comes from. My Yang Shifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh

And this is a very old post of mine


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## letsplaygames (Feb 12, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm in the Tung Ying Chieh Lineage...which is where Dong style comes from. My Yang Shifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh
> 
> And this is a very old post of mine


Nice...  that a good linage to be a part of.


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