# Impoverished Area Of London Riots



## MA-Caver (Aug 6, 2011)

First of all, hope that our friends out by that way are alright and out of harms way. Second also hope that the riots will be contained or dispersed soon. Lastly it's happened before in many other places including here in the states. The poor rising up in anger because one of their own was injured or killed by the higher classes. Even if it's done by authorities and especially if it's done by authorities, accidental or otherwise. 


> LONDON (AP)  The gritty north London neighborhood of Tottenham exploded in anger Saturday night after a young man was shot to death by police.
> 
> Two patrol cars, a building and a double-decker bus were torched as rioters clashed with officers in front of the Tottenham Police Station, where people had gathered to demand "justice" for the death of a 29-year-old killed in an apparent gunfight.
> "It's really bad," he said. "It looks like it's going to get very nasty  ... there seems to be a lot of anger in Tottenham tonight."
> ...



I've tried to find the story about the shooting which lead to the riots. My search skills would not get me a job. But from what I picked up it's racial and that's a bad thing because it just spurs the hatred on. I mean damn, shouldn't we have outgrown it by now?


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## billc (Aug 6, 2011)

hmmm...the higher classes?  I think a lot more detail about the actual event is needed before things are clear.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 6, 2011)

billcihak said:


> hmmm...the higher classes?  I think a lot more detail about the actual event is needed before things are clear.


 Police officers are paid more than the average wage-earner in a poor neighborhood, some may earn equal salaries but don't tend to live there long and move to better neighborhoods.  So it's a higher class either way you cut it.


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## billc (Aug 6, 2011)

Some more reporting:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023254/Tottenham-riots-Double-decker-bus-set-ablaze-mob-violence-hits-London.html?ITO=1490

from the article:

Last night the Tottenham area erupted once again as more than 100 officers and specialist riot police faced crowds of more than 500 people protesting about the death of Mark Duggan, who lived on the estate and was described last week by police sources as a gangster.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023254/Tottenham-riots-Double-decker-bus-set-ablaze-mob-violence-hits-London.html#ixzz1UJOGYIQx
----------------

Until the info. firms up all I have to say is that from what I understand of the British police, they aren't known to be trigger happy.  Perhaps some of our British posters can shed some light on exactly what happened?


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## billc (Aug 6, 2011)

A report on the actual incident:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8682655/Man-killed-in-shooting-incident-involving-police-officer.html

from the article:

[h=2]A policeman's life was saved by his radio last night after a gunman opened fire on him and the bullet hit the device.[/h]
Armed police immediately returned fire and Mark Duggan, 29, who was under surveillance, was shot dead in the street in north london.

The policeman, who has not been named, was wounded in the shooting and taken to hospital. But last night he was discharged.

Police sources said the dead man was a "well known gangster" who had been under surveillance by officers investigating gun crime in a pre-planned operation in Tottenhan Hale. They added that the police officer had been saved after the bullet fired at him struck his radio.

An eyewitness said that a police officer had shouted to the man to stop "a couple of times", but he had not heeded the warning.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which has been called in to investigate, said it understood the dead male had been shot by police, adding that the officer had been shot and wounded.
An IPCC spokesman said: ''We understand the officer was shot first before the male was shot.''
He said the incident, which happened at 6.15pm tonight, had been referred to the IPCC by the Metropolitan Police professional standards department.
He said independent investigators had been deployed to the scene in Ferry Lane, Tottenham Hale.

AND FROM THE BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14423942

from the article:

*A man shot dead by police in north London was a passenger in a minicab stopped during a planned operation, the police watchdog has said.*
Officers stopped the car in Ferry Lane, Tottenham, on Thursday to carry out an arrest when the 29-year-old man, named locally as Mark Duggan, was shot.
Three shots were fired. A bullet was found lodged in a police radio.
A police officer was also injured in the incident, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said.
The injured officer has since been discharged from hospital.
The incident took place in Tottenham Hale at about 18:15 BST and Mr Duggan died at the scene.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

The poor rising up, oh dear oh dear!

A man carrying a gun shot at police and was in turn shot back. 
The man carrying the gun was known for taking part in gang and criminal activities. Tottenham isn't a poor part of London, Broadwater Farm is a small area in Tottenham where they had a race riot in the eighties. The man alleged to be a criminal who was shot dead was black.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14434318

Don't make more of this than there is.


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## andy.m (Aug 7, 2011)

> Don't make more of this than there is


Tez3

unfortunately , 'they' are , hence the riot !


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

andy.m said:


> Tez3
> 
> unfortunately , 'they' are , hence the riot !



I'm sure 'they' are ( and that will get the conspiracy theorists here going lol) but I'm saying to the Americans not to read more into this than there is, it's a gun carrying criminal who was shot while the police were trying to arrest him, injuring a police officer btw and certain people, the anti police brigade, have jumped on the bandwagon and are protesting, joining in with them are the yobs who just like vandalising and throwing stuff at coppers.

this is Broadwater Farm Estate btw, an 'impoverished part of London.


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2011)

It was noisy here last night for a while.  There were police helicopters above for a good few hours.  Though we are far enough away to have avoided any direct trouble, I worry that this kind of orchestrated violence by Duggan's posse and the wannabe tough boys that hang on his coattails can spread outwards.  I hope not.  I have heard various reports of unnecessary police force and but I think that is usually crap to be frank.  It is well known that the guy was well connected to the Yardies.  Politically or morally correct or not, I do not care, imo, justice is done.  The Met police here as well as anyone know the repercussions of unwarranted firearm discharge let alone shooting someone dead.  I support the police here fwiw.  It makes me angry to hear these rioters and their slightly educated mouthpieces lament their impoverished backgrounds and the social injustice they are subject to.  I live in the area.  I am hardly rich and but I have to work like anyone to subside these pushers and extortionists who drive around in their X5s and Range Rovers.  It makes me angry.  This place is better off for less of their kind.  One less to cause trouble in the area I say.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

Jenna said:


> It was noisy here last night for a while. There were police helicopters above for a good few hours. Though we are far enough away to have avoided any direct trouble, I worry that this kind of orchestrated violence by Duggan's posse and the wannabe tough boys that hang on his coattails can spread outwards. I hope not. I have heard various reports of unnecessary police force and but I think that is usually crap to be frank. It is well known that the guy was well connected to the Yardies. Politically or morally correct or not, I do not care, imo, justice is done. The Met police here as well as anyone know the repercussions of unwarranted firearm discharge let alone shooting someone dead. I support the police here fwiw. It makes me angry to hear these rioters and their slightly educated mouthpieces lament their impoverished backgrounds and the social injustice they are subject to. I live in the area. I am hardly rich and but I have to work like anyone to subside these pushers and extortionists who drive around in their X5s and Range Rovers. It makes me angry. This place is better off for less of their kind. One less to cause trouble in the area I say.



Well said Jenna, it hasn't nothing to do with 'poverty' and all to do with drugs, gangs etc. It was the same up north and everyone is putting it down to the 'immigrant problem'.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

I always find it interesting that when someone is killed by the police, and has had a long history of criminal activity, you will here people in his neihborhood say that he wasn't a bad guy.  It happens here in the states as well.  The initial reporting will have interviews with the people in the neihborhood and they will all say that he may have had problems but he was a good guy.  Then the guys long list of violent crime will come out and it is easy to see that the person was a violent criminal.  I don't know the particulars of this guy, but it sounds the same.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 7, 2011)

Sadly true, aye.


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## granfire (Aug 7, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Well said Jenna, it hasn't nothing to do with 'poverty' and all to do with drugs, gangs etc. It was the same up north and everyone is putting it down to the 'immigrant problem'.



There are also a lot of groups who use situations like that to cause trouble for trouble's sake. "Hey, it's May 1st, let's go to Berlin-Kreutzberg and set cars on fire!"


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2011)

granfire said:


> There are also a lot of groups who use situations like that to cause trouble for trouble's sake. "Hey, it's May 1st, let's go to Berlin-Kreutzberg and set cars on fire!"


Exactly!  While I know times are hard and one of the local community centres was closed recently, we hear talk of impoverishment from youths whose mouths and faces are covered with brand new Adidas trackwear and zipups.  We had the "anarchists" here go on the rampage earlier this morning. I am sure politicians everywhere were taking notice of their well thought through anti-government policies which included such philosophical wonders as looting the local shops. Anyway, maybe I will become an anarchist.  I could do with a new TV.


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## Archangel M (Aug 8, 2011)

This comment over at PoliceOne.com says it all to me:



> 1) Name one family member who will ever say, "Yeah, I totally think my brother/son/husband/boyfriend would shoot at a cop. He was a dirtbag." Family aftermath interviews are ridiculously predictable and serve no purpose other than to pile more people on the anti-cop bandwagon.
> 
> 2) Will someone please start investigating this weird worldwide phenomenon of bullets magically appearing and flinging themselves at us and lodging themselves in our equipment? Obviously if no one shot it, then it appeared from another dimension. Maybe the media can find out who did it by interviewing more distraught family members who would never lie and hurt their chances of their pending lawsuit payday.


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2011)

archangel m said:


> this comment over at policeone.com says it all to me:




qft!


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## MaxiMe (Aug 8, 2011)

Just a question to our LEO's especially the ones across the pond. Is it true or not that anytime a LEO discharges their firearm the investigators are called in?


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2011)

It's ridiculous now, the yobs are using Twitter and Facebook to meet up and go looting! Certain political groups and people are saying it's the governments fault, that it's unemployment etc that's making people riot. Yeah right. So stealing mobile phones, televisions, jewellery etc is a legitimate way of protesting? 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/incitement-warning-to-twitter-users-2333930.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/home-secretary-condemns-rioting-2333748.html

_"Police chiefs, politicians and community leaders condemned "opportunistic criminality" amid a fresh wave of violence. Mrs May said: "I think this is about sheer criminality. _
_"That is what we have seen on the streets. The violence we've seen, the looting we've seen, the thuggery we've seen - this is sheer criminality, and let's make no bones about it. _
_"That's why I say that these people will be brought to justice, they will be made to face the consequences of their actions and I call on all members of local communities to work with the police constructively to help the police to bring these criminals to justice." _


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2011)

MaxiMe said:


> Just a question to our LEO's especially the ones across the pond. Is it true or not that anytime a LEO discharges their firearm the investigators are called in?



The Police Complaints Commision look into each shooting. I imagine it's the same in most countries, the shooting has to be seen to be justified...or not. I don't think routinely armed police officers in the US can shoot people without there being an enquiry afterwards.


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## MaxiMe (Aug 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> The Police Complaints Commision look into each shooting. I imagine it's the same in most countries, the shooting has to be seen to be justified...or not. I don't think routinely armed police officers in the US can shoot people without there being an enquiry afterwards.



Thanks, I thought that would be the case, but no being a LEO I figured best to check. The articles seem to be sort of stressing that point a little. If it's SOP then it's not anything out of the ordinary.


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2011)

MaxiMe said:


> Thanks, I thought that would be the case, but no being a LEO I figured best to check. The articles seem to be sort of stressing that point a little. If it's SOP then it's not anything out of the ordinary.



You need to have an outside agency or someone outside of the officers chain of command look at a shooting to make sure it was all above board, it's fairer on the officer who then knows he's in the clear, there's no suspicions or blame hanging over him/her. It's fair for the public as well to know that officers aren't taking the law into their own hands. if it turns out to be unjustified people need to know that too.
I imagine that the articles are stressing it to show demonstrators and others perhaps that it won't be whitewashed and proper procedures were in place.


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## billc (Aug 8, 2011)

I was driving around with the news on the radio when the reporter for ABC news gave a quick report on the riots.  The reporter said that rioting continued in south london or something like that and then he said, the riots were in response to the police shooting and killing a father of four.  Foolish me, I waited a second to here more but that was it.  So, do British police just shoot fathers of 4 for no reason?  I have read a couple of the newspaper articles on the shooting incident and the posts here on the study so I have an idea of what actually happened.  Come on though, the media is so reflexively anti-police they don't even see it.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 8, 2011)

See it in pictures... pretty bad. 
http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/08/the-london-riots/


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## billc (Aug 8, 2011)

The radio guy tonight said the idiots might be spreading to other parts of London.  Are these riots in the other parts about the shooting or is it just rioting for the sake of rioting?


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## Carol (Aug 8, 2011)

News here just said rioters were arrested for attempted murder of a police officer.  Horrible.    

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Aug 9, 2011)

billcihak said:


> The radio guy tonight said the idiots might be spreading to other parts of London. Are these riots in the other parts about the shooting or is it just rioting for the sake of rioting?



I doubt the rioters know or care about protests, they are looting and rioting, pure criminality. Some are jumping on the bandwagon wringing their hands saying the poor are rising up, if that's so the 'poor' are richer than I am because I can't afford the designer clothes they are rioting in! the shops being targetted are consumer shops, electrical outlets, furniture shops etc. It's gangs helping themselves and setting fire to buildings just because they want to. Ask them about the shooting and you will get blank looks just before they hit you and steal your valuables.

The guy that was shot was being arrested for gang and drug related offences, he was carrying a gun, a police officer was injured and another had a bullet wedged in his radio after he was shot at.


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## billc (Aug 9, 2011)

Do the cops at least get to use tear gas on the jerks or are they restricted in how they respond?


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## Jenna (Aug 9, 2011)

I have to admit that is the most frightened I have been in a while, I have not seen riot police close up like this in Camden ever before.  These rioters are nothing more than mindless criminals simply out to loot stores.  This is not about a shooting, lawful or otherwise; this is not about social deprivation let alone budgetary squeezes, this is about pure greed and gratuitous criminality.  The High Street is a mess.  Actions of these people - and many are not youths now and but older guys orchestrating shop robberies - their actions will simply drive tourism and business away.  It is frustrating.  There were people on the street, shop owners and community workers trying to stop them last night and but they were busy on their BBs deciding amongst theirselves which stores to raid next.  I do not know what to think or do.


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## Razor (Aug 9, 2011)

These scenes will be a great advertisement for the Olympics next year. 

One question for anyone who knows more, why were not enough Police deployed? From the pictures I've seen, there are sometimes about 20 standing at the end of a street and people looting and rioting in the middle, clearly without enough Police to sort it out. If 10,000 more are being deployed today, why could they not have been before?


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## granfire (Aug 9, 2011)

not so different from the LA riots...


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## Jenna (Aug 9, 2011)

granfire said:


> not so different from the LA riots...


Exactly right granfire! only those had a racial flavour underpinning the start of it all, in these they have more or less foregone any underpinnings arising from the initial incident and got straight to the thieving and destruction for no reason other than recreation and a new pair of sneakers.


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## billc (Aug 9, 2011)

Are the police having their hands tied by political considerations or is it some sort of breakdown in procedure?


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## Jenna (Aug 9, 2011)

I would personally not have enough knowledge of police procedure to comment and but I know that I saw with my own eyes Met police look sheepish at approaching teenage looters at a phone store.  Anecdotally, I have heard that because of the vast scope of the rioting, there are not enough officers with recent riot training to cope and so many are donning the riot paphernalia without proper training in its deployment.  I do not know if there is validity in that.  

I - and most everyone else I know here - respect the Met police and but I think the community will be the ultimate saviours of the town here and not the police as I feel they have lost their grip on order here right now. The place is a disaster zone adn olympics aside, regular people are having their livelihoods wrecked by those that do not care to work at all.


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## billc (Aug 9, 2011)

Sounds like you are right in the middle of it, I hope you are safe and I hope the police get things together enough to contain these jerks.  I hate when that kind of rioting happens in the states and it isn't pleasant when it happens in other places either.


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## CoryKS (Aug 9, 2011)

Jenna and other MTers in the area, please stay safe.


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## Jenna (Aug 9, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Sounds like you are right in the middle of it, I hope you are safe and I hope the police get things together enough to contain these jerks.  I hate when that kind of rioting happens in the states and it isn't pleasant when it happens in other places either.


I hope so too Bill and thank you my friend  There is a kind of an eerie and oppressive vibe around right now that I have not got since after the 7/7 bombs.  I get the unavoidable impression there is going to be more trouble presently.  Even local shops are closed early.  My place of work is closed.  I have seen riot vans here already and it is only after 3pm, goodness.

Thank you too Cory  All good here   Locked down tight


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## billc (Aug 9, 2011)

You know, you might want to leave the area and if possible go somewhere safer.  Who knows though, perhaps they have burnt themeselves out already.  That kind of outrageous behavior must be hard to maintain over several days.


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## Jenna (Aug 9, 2011)

Life goes on regardless http://www.flickr.com/photos/pixel-eight/6024429000/ and at some point soon this will be yesterday's news I think   Sooner rather than later I hope


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## billc (Aug 9, 2011)

Drudge has a link to video footage of these groups of these thugs robbing people during the riots, it makes you think that the police really need to go in hard on these jerks.  There may be reasons for not showing up in force but the law enforcement posters would have to point out those reasons.  Is it a fear of escalation, or are the politicians afraid of images on the news.  Watching innocent people having to put up with being robbed, in broad daylight, with dozens of people around is really irritating.


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## granfire (Aug 9, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Life goes on regardless http://www.flickr.com/photos/pixel-eight/6024429000/ and at some point soon this will be yesterday's news I think   Sooner rather than later I hope



walk softly and carry a big cricket bat! ^_^


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## billc (Aug 9, 2011)

Or a holstered .45 acp or 9mm.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 9, 2011)

Razor said:


> These scenes will be a great advertisement for the Olympics next year.
> 
> One question for anyone who knows more, why were not enough Police deployed? From the pictures I've seen, there are sometimes about 20 standing at the end of a street and people looting and rioting in the middle, clearly without enough Police to sort it out. If 10,000 more are being deployed today, why could they not have been before?


My thought is because it takes time to allocate that much man-power on a civilian level. Can't just pick up a bunch of cops and drop 'em down in a trouble area without ensuring you have enough cops to patrol the areas where they're not (immediately) needed. (dunno if that came out right)... Were they military then that's easy but when it's police you gotta make sure the rest of the population is going to be protected adequately.


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## MaxiMe (Aug 9, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Exactly right granfire! only those had a racial flavour underpinning the start of it all, in these they have more or less foregone any underpinnings arising from the initial incident and got straight to the thieving and destruction for no reason other than recreation and a new pair of sneakers.



Remember it started as one thing and the band wagggoners changed it into their thing. Just TV's sneakers and beer.


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## MaxiMe (Aug 9, 2011)

Jenna and any others I empathize (was 1 block ahead of the LA riots) Stay safe. Treat it like a hotel fire, stay low, don't use the elevators and get the **** out.


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## Tez3 (Aug 9, 2011)

There's going to be a huge police presence tonight and for the next few days, you'll probably find a number of different forces officers there though I'm afraid there's other cities to deal with as well. People may moan about CCTV infringing civil liberties but it is capturing a majority of the rioters photos, very clearly and they will be named asap. The use of Twitter and FB is being monitored ( not hacked!) to see where the mobs are going next, these 'poor' unemployed youths all have Blackberry's, hell I can't afford one!
Parents are being told to keep thier children and teenagers inside, as if! A lot of people are blaming parents for the lack of control they have over these youths. One 11 year was picked up red handed looting by the police. 

The Met police didn't have enough officers to cope on the first couple of nights, they should have enough now with the reinforcements. They are going to be criticised whatever they do though, it seems they tried a softly softly approach at the original demo to try not to incite anything then it kicked off and they are blamed for not being forceful! 

Londoners are probably the most resilent people going, they will put everything back together again and carry on. Hopefully we'll see the culprits punished but expect plenty of weeping and wailing by the apologists, 'they had no choice they were unemployed'!


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## Carol (Aug 9, 2011)

CNN and GlobalPost reporting Amazon.uk sees sales of aluminum bats up 5000% in one day, sales of wooden bats up 4000% in one day.  Sigh.

RIOTS = Real Idiots On The Streets.  Stay safe everyone, you're in my thoughts and prayers :asian:

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/09/london-riots-new-business-for-amazon/


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## granfire (Aug 9, 2011)

Carol said:


> CNN and GlobalPost reporting Amazon.uk sees sales of aluminum bats up 5000% in one day, sales of wooden bats up 4000% in one day.  Sigh.
> 
> RIOTS = Real Idiots On The Streets.  Stay safe everyone, you're in my thoughts and prayers :asian:
> 
> http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/09/london-riots-new-business-for-amazon/



by the time the bats get there, the show is over....


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## Tez3 (Aug 10, 2011)

Of course dreadful as this is the news media is delighted, it comes in 'silly' season, when Parliament is on holiday as are a lot of people so there's no newsworthy stuff to print/broadcast. They end up doing stupid little stories but with the riots you can see the broadcasters salivating and sending teams in to cover the violence, reporters are behaving as if they were in Afghan. All adds to the drama and the yobs like the look of what they see, it's dramatic, violent and attention grabbing so hey lets all have a go. I'm not suggesting a news blackout but it would be nice if you could go back to plain factual reporting without the reporters glory hunting.


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## granfire (Aug 10, 2011)

'Saure Gurken Zeit' aye, has not gotten any better with the US style of coverage, sending people out to 'the front'
it is kinda hunerous when you see the noob in a rain coat holding on for dear life, yep, it's a hurricane and the wind is strong...boring when you see the umpteenth house blown away by a storm - unless it's your street, yu can't tell the difference, but outright dangerous when you give the half brained criminal element more attention than they deserve...


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## Grenadier (Aug 11, 2011)

Intresting development...  Preliminary tests show some indication that Mark Duggan (the individual whose death sparked these riots) didn't fire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516



> There is no evidence Mark Duggan opened fire at police before being shot dead by a firearms officer, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has said.
> 
> Mr Duggan, 29, whose death sparked the first riots in Tottenham, died from a single bullet wound, an inquest heard.
> The police watchdog said ballistic tests showed "no evidence that the handgun found at the scene was fired".



Before anyone makes any assumptions, though, keep in mind that police officers in a civilized nation aren't exactly going to open fire without cause, that there's usually a reason to believe that someone's life was in danger.  After all, did he pull the pistol out and brandish it at the police?  If so, the officers are certainly justified in firing at him.  

On another note, the firearm that Duggan was carrying was illegal, of course, being a starter pistol modified to fire live ammunition.


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## Grenadier (Aug 11, 2011)

On another, more humorous note, some of the reviews of aluminum bats are pretty funny:



> Good weight, easy to swing and effective, it does not suffer from vibrations when being used vigorously on bone or soft tissue.
> 
> Very pleased indeed with this item.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 11, 2011)

I gotten this in the e-mail... didn't like much of what I read. 


> Those of you following the barbaric rioting in Britain will not have  failed to notice that a sizable proportion of the thugs are white,  something not often seen in this country.
> Not only that, but in a  triumph of feminism, a lot of them are girls. Even the "disabled"  (according to the British benefits system) seem to have miraculously  overcome their infirmities to dash out and steal a few TVs.
> Congratulations, Britain! You've barbarized your citizenry, without regard to race, gender or physical handicap!
> With  a welfare system far more advanced than the United States, the British  have achieved the remarkable result of turning entire communities of  ancestral British people into tattooed, drunken brutes.
> ...


I didn't appreciate the anti-British rant by Ms Coulter nor her ideas of how things are going on. Here is one article that explains things a bit.
http://news.yahoo.com/britains-rioters-young-poor-disillusioned-192716141.html


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## billc (Aug 11, 2011)

Not anti-British, anti-welfare state.

Here is an article that expains things about the welfare state from a  British perspective:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

from the article:



> But it will not do for a moment to claim the rioters&#8217; behaviour reflects deprived circumstances or police persecution.
> Of course it is true that few have jobs, learn anything useful at school, live in decent homes, eat meals at regular hours or feel loyalty to anything beyond their local gang.
> This is not, however, because they are victims of mistreatment or neglect.
> It is because it is fantastically hard to help such people, young or old, without imposing a measure of compulsion  which modern society finds  unacceptable. These kids are what they are because nobody makes them be anything  different or better.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...neration-brutalised-youths.html#ixzz1UjuedTUb

The fact is that this state of lack of respect for others is not just in one country, you can see it here in the states as well.  I posted a video of men who shot up a bus because someone commented on the child rearing practices of a woman on the bus, you can see that in the general self-defense thread.  In Chicago, wisconsin and I believe philedelphia, you have thug mobs attacking people, either to rob them or just for the fun of beating people up.  Generations of children raised by children raised by children, with no mature adult role modeling is the cause, and the welfare state, regardless of the country, makes that children raising children possible.


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## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2011)

I for one don't appreciate the stuff about Shannon Matthews. It's really uncalled for ( though thanks for posting it, it good to be able to refute stuff like that).

One of the UK's MMA fighters Mark Aldridge ( he's on FB if you want it first hand) who fights often on our shows, he's fighting again on our charity show in Novemebr, lives close to where Shannon lived, his daughter was Shannon's best friend, he will tell you a different story about the area they live in, where everyone was out looking for Shannon, posters were put out, the community pulled together. The media did do a lot on the story, they had no reason to believe at the time, no one did, that it was the mother. The area is a poor one, it used to be a coal mining area but Maggie closed the pits, there isn't much chance of work in these areas but the sense of community is still there.
No one calls anyone 'kaffir' here, that's just silly, there's other epithets but not that one. That's South African.

Britain has the most 'single parent' families, not single mothers. This of course will include the war widows living on their war pensions...'benefits', those who's partners have died, either by illness or accident. Those who have divorced, both male and female parents having the children. there's no statistics for single mothers, just single parents.
Scarlet Keeling wasn't perfect 'Anglo', she was a traveller.

If you look at how many people have jobs, money education and were caught rioting it sort of go aganist the whole rant really. When millionaires daughters, solicters, teachers, and graduates are the ones looting I don't think it fits with the 'Britain', welfare state crisis etc etc' rubbish


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## Sukerkin (Aug 11, 2011)

Speaking to that last bit, Tez, will we be able to find out the demographics about the looters once things have calmed down a bit?  

I assume the media will either focus on a few 'out of place' people if that suits them or play the whole "it's all unemployed shysters" line for all it's worth.  So it would be good to know if there is an official source we can look for later on.

As an aside, I knew you'd have something to say about the comments by Ms. Coulter about Shannon Matthews - I still recall the case and your posts about it here on MT :bows:.


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## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Speaking to that last bit, Tez, will we be able to find out the demographics about the looters once things have calmed down a bit?
> 
> I assume the media will either focus on a few 'out of place' people if that suits them or play the whole "it's all unemployed shysters" line for all it's worth. So it would be good to know if there is an official source we can look for later on.
> 
> As an aside, I knew you'd have something to say about the comments by Ms. Coulter about Shannon Matthews - I still recall the case and your posts about it here on MT :bows:.




I think this may be the site to keep an eye on, it may take a while though.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research-statistics/

I will say that there are people waiting for Shannon Matthews mother and co criminals to come out of prison..not that I condone it of course!


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