# Exposing fraudulent styles...Worth it?



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

So recently a dojo has come under attack for being fraudulent. This dojo claims to combine Ninjutsu, Aikijutsu, and some other unpronounceable ancient  Japanese arts, and began to really promote their art to the world via YouTube and other social media. The online MA community responded in kind, quickly investigating this dojo, and discovering that a lot of their claims are false or made up. Their demonstrations are full of silly things that any experienced artist could see is completely bogus. Yet this school appears quite successful, and full of students who enjoy their training.

The "Soke" hasn't been too happy with the criticism of his style, and has responded in kind, with his students defending him, and his training methods.

While I find all of this entertaining, I can't help but wonder if we  as martial artists should allow such places to exist. Dojo storming was all the rage back in the day, but I don't think that many people have the stomach (or the legal fees) for that anymore. However, don't we have a responsibility to make sure that people are taught true martial arts? Do we sit back and let frauds and charlatans teach people garbage that could wind up getting them injured or killed? Conversely, should we live and let live, and hope that the students eventually find a legitimate style to train in?

 I'm interested in your thoughts.


----------



## Blindside (Sep 14, 2014)

If someone tells me their 10 year old brother/nephew/cousin/son got their black belt, I generally say "thats nice" and leave it at that.  If someone asks me my opinion about a school I will give it to them as honestly as I can, but quite frankly I am not going to spend my time trying to chase down ever piss-poor instructor out there, I have way better things to do with my time.


----------



## Danny T (Sep 14, 2014)

I have no need or desire to promote my school, our methods, or our skills through the criticism of another school or instructor. We do what we do in the manner we do it; they do what they do. People come to the martial arts for many different reasons; if the school is meeting the individuals needs or wants Great. With the huge amount of information available today for anyone who really wants the information/knowledge and they stay with what they are doing, it is by choice. I really don't want the kool aid drinkers, I want people who are information seekers and who are discerning. If someone asks about something specific or if a video is posted and requesting opinions or comments I may opine to the specifics.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

Danny T said:


> I have no need or desire to promote my school, our methods, or our skills through the criticism of another school or instructor. We do what we do in the manner we do it; they do what they do. People come to the martial arts for many different reasons; if the school is meeting the individuals needs or wants Great. With the huge amount of information available today for anyone who really wants the information/knowledge and they stay with what they are doing, it is by choice. I really don't want the kool aid drinkers, I want people who are information seekers and who are discerning. If someone asks about something specific or if a video is posted and requesting opinions or comments I may opine to the specifics.



While true, I doubt that many people come to the martial arts to learn B.S. from a liar and a phony. Also while there is a lot of information out there, many people don't know how to use that information in order to make good decisions.


----------



## Danny T (Sep 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> While true, I doubt that many people come to the martial arts to learn B.S. from a liar and a phony. Also while there is a lot of information out there, many people don't know how to use that information in order to make good decisions.



I believe most people are intelligent enough to use the information available and are very capable of making good decisions. If they do not seek or use the information available to be informed to make a good decision it is not my job to make them. And, if they are unwilling to seek out and be discerning with their decisions do I really want them as students? My responsibility is to instruct intelligent, motivated, and insightful persons who have good judgement the skill sets of the martial arts I teach.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 14, 2014)

*I have no time for frauds, charlatans and fools*.  Fraud in the martial arts is some thing we should all be concerned about.  Like Blindside said if someone asks me for my opinion I will gladly give it and with brutal honesty.  Likewise my time is way to valuable for me to be chasing down every piss poor martial artist and fraudulent instructor.  

Yet, I do believe in standing up for what is right and if I feel I can make a difference in some way or to help someone stay away from fraudulent people then I will!  I wrote a blog post about this awhile ago and it also links to an even better post on this subject by Don Roley on his excellent blog.

Frauds In The Martial Sciences?? | The Instinctive Edge?

I would advise anyone before training to investigate who they will be training with.  Do a google search at the very least!


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

Danny T said:


> I believe most people are intelligent enough to use the information available and are very capable of making good decisions.



I disagree. The martial arts is a pretty vast, alien entity that most people have no clue about.  My friends and family still have no idea what Bjj is for example.



> If they do not seek or use the information available to be informed to make a good decision it is not my job to make them. And, if they are unwilling to seek out and be discerning with their decisions do I really want them as students? My responsibility is to instruct intelligent, motivated, and insightful persons who have good judgement the skill sets of the martial arts I teach.



Isn't there an inherent danger to legitimate martial arts if phony and fraudulent arts are allowed to spread?


----------



## K-man (Sep 14, 2014)

What makes this school bogus? Does the instructor (Soke) have experience in the arts that he is teaching? Who decides what is 'legit' and what is not? What claims are they making?

On the whole it disappoints me to see schools that I consider sub-standard but at the end of the day people have the right to choose. If what this crowd are doing makes the students happy, gives them some exercise and gets them out of the house, who cares? There are an awful lot of McDojos out there already. I can't see one more causing an enormous problem.


----------



## Steve (Sep 14, 2014)

Fraudulent styles or fraudulent schools?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Danny T (Sep 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I disagree. The martial arts is a pretty vast, alien entity that most people have no clue about.  My friends and family still have no idea what Bjj is for example.


Didn't say people have a clue. This I agree with. What I said is people are intelligent enough to use the information to learn and make good decisions. The problem is people 'do not' seek the information. That is their responsibility. I can not instruct everyone nor do I want to. How much research have they done to learn of what BJJ is. I get the same thing with persons coming and stating they looking for jitsu. I ask Japanese or Brazilian and they just stare stumped. 



Hanzou said:


> Isn't there an inherent danger to legitimate martial arts if phony and fraudulent arts are allowed to spread?


Maybe, after all; wrestling, grappling, judo, bjj, sambo, and all the other ground fighting arts are suffering as legitimate forms of fighting because of the phony aspects of Professional Wrestling; Right?  No actually there are more people training in ground arts than ever before. 

There will always be frauds. There will always be those wanting to just make money over all else and there will always be people like us who will be honest and forth right in our training, instruction, and dealings with our students. Just as there will always be those that are irresponsible or too lazy to research to assure what they are getting into is legit. If they ask I will opine. I deal with my students in an open, honest, ethical, and professional manner. I even recommend that they go to the other schools and try them out also. I don't have time or energy to be concerned with what others do and how they do it.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> What makes this school bogus? Does the instructor (Soke) have experience in the arts that he is teaching? Who decides what is 'legit' and what is not? What claims are they making?



The lineages are bogus, the styles he supposedly teach don't exist, and the techniques are on the level of ki-master nonsense.



> On the whole it disappoints me to see schools that I consider sub-standard but at the end of the day people have the right to choose. If what this crowd are doing makes the students happy, gives them some exercise and gets them out of the house, who cares? There are an awful lot of McDojos out there already. I can't see one more causing an enormous problem.



To be fair, McDojos are still legitimate schools that teach legitimate martial arts. There's a lot a TKD McDojos out there, but TKD is still a real style of MA, and I would say that the instructors in TKD McDojos are teaching a real martial art, as watered down as it is.

There's a big difference between that, and some guy making up a style of MA from ancient Japan, and lying about his martial training in order to make his made-up style more ancient and mysterious. If you're going to make up a style, at least be up front about it. Like Quantum Jujutsu for example. They're pretty up front about the origins of their style.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

Steve said:


> Fraudulent styles or fraudulent schools?



Both.


----------



## jezr74 (Sep 14, 2014)

Can you post the links?


----------



## Steve (Sep 14, 2014)

Couple of thoughts.  Here on mt, fraud busting isn't done.   Bullshido does a nice job, and they're fun to read.  

In genral, at least in America, you might find yourself in a defamation suit, which could be lengthy and expensive.   I'm not a lawyer, so this is only my lay understanding.   Point is, if a guy has credentials even if they're suspect, you are on shaky ground.,  there are no regulatory standards for martial arts.  No licenses or state requirements.  

So, all that to say, sure.  Frauds and charlatans should be exposed.  Bulshido does it right.  They have a lawyer on staff.  They stick very diligently to facts that can be supported, and they write very thorough articles that avoid emotion or subjectivity.  

If you don't intend to do the same, I'd advise against it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## WaterGal (Sep 14, 2014)

Well, there's not really any way to not "allow" bad or inauthentic schools to exist.  If you go around badmouthing other people - or worse, show up at their place and try to start something - you just look like a jerk.  

I think the best thing to do is to just do better work than them. People who care will see the difference.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Sep 14, 2014)

Just get over it. I am freaking out half the time because you guys are doing what your styles tell you to do. I can't run around saying that, and because I am doing things that I know would freak all you guys out, I am confidant that no body is qualified to decide which schools should and should not exist. Let the market play it out.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Can you post the links?



I'd rather not. If you're curious about the dojo mentioned in the OP, I could PM you the info.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

Steve said:


> Couple of thoughts.  Here on mt, fraud busting isn't done.   Bullshido does a nice job, and they're fun to read.
> 
> In genral, at least in America, you might find yourself in a defamation suit, which could be lengthy and expensive.   I'm not a lawyer, so this is only my lay understanding.   Point is, if a guy has credentials even if they're suspect, you are on shaky ground.,  there are no regulatory standards for martial arts.  No licenses or state requirements.
> 
> ...



Good advice. Fortunately we have places like Bullshido to handle these types of places.


----------



## Steve (Sep 14, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Just get over it. I am freaking out half the time because you guys are doing what your styles tell you to do. I can't run around saying that, and because I am doing things that I know would freak all you guys out, I am confidant that no body is qualified to decide which schools should and should not exist. Let the market play it out.



Now I'm intrigued.  What are we doing that freaks you out and What exactly are you doing that you think would freak me out?  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 14, 2014)

Here on MT, the answer's kind of clear:


> *1.10.2 No Art bashing. *
> 
> No one art is "the best", no one  "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your  research and find what best fits your ability and need.
> 
> ...



That said, there's some room for discussion -- polite and factually based, and done with respect -- regarding the legitimacy of styles or claims.  

In general -- it depends.  A simple set of questions might be good guidance:  Are the claims illegal?  Are they doing things that are unsafe, illegal, or damaging to the students?   After that -- who's asking?  If a friend is asking my opinion, and I might tell them what I think -- but my personal rule about advice to friends is generally that, once given, I'm done.  I don't care if you take the advice or not.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> no body is qualified to decide which schools should and should not exist. Let the market play it out.


Agree with you 100% there.

Will you go to a 

- Taiji teacher who teaches "Taiji for health", 
- Wushu instructor who teaches "Wushu for performance",

and tell him that his teaching is bad? The good and bad are relative term and not absolute term. I don't think we should judge others by our own standard.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 14, 2014)

#1....  if they are claiming to teach a legit style using false informantion or credentials then it would be good for the governing body of that system to address it.  i know many years ago of a aikido shihan than when he heard of a school in his area claiming to teach aikido he would ask for there certificates and who at hombu dojo authorized them to teach and open a school.  (at this time aikido was very regulated)  if they could not prove authenticity he would send them a cease and desist letter. then they would start calling their style aiki-jujitsu.  didnt do much to stop them from teaching. but my point is if you are going to try and fraud bust then you better have the authority to do it.  

#2...i have heard lots of bullshido stories, false info and contrived history from what people would consider legit schools & styles so what is the difference?  if you really take a deep look at martial arts i would say 90% of everything out there is made up crap.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with you 100% there.
> 
> Will you go to a
> 
> ...



I suppose that is part of the reason I avoid overly traditional styles like the plague. Its far too easy for charlatans to concoct a "Ryuha" or ancient Kung Fu style they learned from some mysterious Asian guy. There's no way to check them skill-wise either, since they don't compete, and oftentimes don't even permit sparring outside or even inside the dojo.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I suppose that is part of the reason I avoid overly traditional styles like the plague. Its far too easy for charlatans to concoct a "Ryuha" or ancient Kung Fu style they learned from some mysterious Asian guy. There's no way to check them skill-wise either, since they don't compete, and oftentimes don't even permit sparring outside or even inside the dojo.



This is why in CMA, the lineage is important. Your CMA teacher just couldn't crawl out of a hole from an unknown place. 







A CMA teacher with lineage may not be a good teacher. A CMA teacher without any lineage is always questionable. People with IQ above 20 won't learn CMA from any "mysterious Asian guy".


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 14, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why in CMA, the lineage is important. Your CMA teacher just couldn't crawl out of a hole from an unknown place.
> 
> A CMA teacher with lineage may not be a good teacher. A CMA teacher without any lineage is always questionable. People with IQ above 20 won't learn CMA from any "mysterious Asian guy".



Well that's sort of my point; How would you know if the guy you're learning from really does have a lineage? A lot of those lineages out of East Asia are extremely murky.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> How would you know if the guy you're learning from really does have a lineage? A lot of those lineages out of East Asia are extremely murky.



Old Chinese saying said, "A student would spend 3 years to investigate a teacher (make sure he is a teacher worthwhile to learn from). A teacher would also spend 3 years to investigate a student (make sure he is a good student worthwhile to teach)."

In other words, one has to do his homework. 

Did this teacher ever 

- compete in tournaments? How many times? What place did he get?
- taught any good fighters? Who are them?
- ...

As far as the CMA, there were national Chinese tournaments back in 1928, 1929, 1933, ... All winners had official Chinese record. It's very easy to verify if you do your homework.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In October 1928, the Central Guoshu Institute held another national examination in Nanjing. This event came to be regarded as one of the most significant historic gatherings of Chinese martial arts masters. The tournament was presided by generals Zhang Zhi Jiang, Li Lie Jun, and Li Jing Lin, who separated the 600 participants into two categories: Shaolin and Wudang.[SUP][3][/SUP] After the first several days of competition, the fighting competitions had to be halted because two masters were killed and many more seriously injured. The final 12 contestants were not permitted to continue for fear of losing traditional knowledge of martial arts by killing off the experts and the overall winner was voted on by a jury of his peers. Many of the "Top 15" finishers (some being Xingyi boxers) went on to teach at the institute.[SUP][4][/SUP]
Yang Chengfu was named the Institute's head instructor of T'ai Chi Chuan; Sun Lu-t'ang was named head instructor of XingYi Chuan; and Fu Chen Sung was named head instructor of BaGua Zhang.[SUP][5][/SUP]

In 1929, the governor of Guangdong Province invited some of the institutes's masters (including some of those that had competed in the 1928 lei tai) to come south to establish a "Southern Kuoshu Institute". General Li Jinglin chose five masters to represent northern China: BaguaZhang master, Fu Chen Sung; Shaolin Iron Palm master, Gu Ru Zhang; Six Harmony master Wan Lai Shen; Tam T'ui master, Li Shan Wu; and Cha Chuan master, Wang Shao Zhao. These men were known as the _Wu hu xia jiangnan_ (&#20116;&#34382;&#19979;&#27743;&#21335; - "Five tigers heading south of Jiangnan"). 

In 1933, the institute again hosted the national competition. The rules said, "...if death occurs as a result of boxing injuries and fights, the coffin with a body of the deceased will be sent home."[SUP][6][/SUP]


----------



## Touch Of Death (Sep 14, 2014)

Steve said:


> Now I'm intrigued.  What are we doing that freaks you out and What exactly are you doing that you think would freak me out?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I think counter balancing your kicks, while neat looking, is crazy.


----------



## jezr74 (Sep 14, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I'd rather not. If you're curious about the dojo mentioned in the OP, I could PM you the info.


Is ok. Found a good source of information compare against. 
http://www.realultimatepower.net/


----------



## Master Dan (Sep 15, 2014)

First let the buyer beware! If you are not a master then what should concern you is doing the very best you can on your own personal training,your personal conduct and frankly If you are blessed to be part of an original association that ties to a pioneer or 2nd generation you should have a moral loyalty base to serve the person that made you. Back in the Day? is related more to disputes over turf and income. I remember our GM losing sleep and being harassed at home by phone over a pending law suite related to injury and a rival ITF master was advising and appearing for the plaintiff. I remember our GM being upset that he would not listen to reason that brother martial artists should stick together in this case since bad for him could be bad for everyone but to no avail. If people feel they are getting what they need by another business that makes up names, styles, uniforms, swings chickens over their heads its not our cause to get vigilante on them because they offend our sense of purity. However if they pose a clear and present danger to the community or by illegal actions that will reflect on the MA business as a whole in a negative fashion then I would support the judgment of the senior GM thoughts on how to proceed in a legal manner. I have seen GM's with deep pockets set up business across the street at discount rates just to runt them out of business as well. 

Does anyone here remember Count Daunte and the Dragon Gkung Fu I Miami that was bragging of all his death moves such as ripping out the throat and heart while in some very snazzy silk Jamie's?  If memory serves me the local KMA got tired of the bull and went in one night and people were severely injured I thought one killed but the Count survived by locking himself in a locker?


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Sep 15, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> So recently a dojo has come under attack for being fraudulent. This dojo claims to combine Ninjutsu, Aikijutsu, and some other unpronounceable ancient  Japanese arts, and began to really promote their art to the world via YouTube and other social media. The online MA community responded in kind, quickly investigating this dojo, and discovering that a lot of their claims are false or made up.



I'll play devil's advocate for a moment.  None of my commentary is directed at you the OP or anyone, rather they should be taken as general questions/comments for consideration.  So no one get offended.

Who is the 'online MA community'?  What are 'their' credentials.  Do some of them have an agenda?  What do they stand to REALLY gain from disparaging another school?  What is their proof that claims are false or made up?



> Their demonstrations are full of silly things that any experienced artist could see is completely bogus.



From who's perspective?  I teach pure self defense and see a LOT of stuff on the sport side of the house that I think is bogus, silly or downright dangerous to the student...from my perspective.  Those on the sport side could look at what I teach and think that it has stuff they'd never use within their venue, just isn't needed or interesting or something they'd never use...from their perspective.  We're both right...from our perspective.  



> Yet this school appears quite successful, and full of students who enjoy their training.



So we have people that find value in what the school offers.  And I would assume that since they're students they are directly involved in the training whereas the critics probably aren't.  



> I can't help but wonder if we  as martial artists should allow such places to exist.



And what is the alternative?  By what authority would 'other' martial artists allow or disallow another school to exist?



> Dojo storming was all the rage back in the day, but I don't think that many people have the stomach (or the legal fees) for that anymore.



Perhaps people are more mature these days.  By what legal authority would one 'dojo bust'?  The only thing I could think of off the top of my head would be for illegal activity such as sexual misconduct and the like.  And that would fall to L.E. not the MA community to take action. 



> However, don't we have a responsibility to make sure that people are taught true martial arts?



And who is making the determination of what a 'true' martial art is and what it isn't?  In my personal and professional opinion, any and all _sport_ martial arts are_ martial sports _and *not* true martial arts.  But that is my opinion.  Those in sport martial arts (martial sports) will have a different opinion.  And we are both entitled to our opinions.  And neither of us has the authority to decree anything beyond our opinion.  



> Do we sit back and let frauds and charlatans teach people garbage that could wind up getting them injured or killed?



Again, is the art in question claiming sport, self defense, both or neither?  I would contend, because I'm strictly self defense (and use such almost daily) that many/most/all sport martial arts teach things that will most definitely get their students injured or killed...in a real altercation against a determined, violent attacker.  But then, sport martial arts aren't designed for this venue, rather they are designed for competition.  So we have and apple and orange comparison.  As such, what does this art claim to teach, what is the purpose, what is the venue and do they satisfy that claim?  If not, what is the proof that they don't satisfy the claim?  

Now, I'm not defending this art (don't even know what it is) but simply providing a big picture to consider.  Anybody can claim anyone else is a fraud.  Hell, I've had a guy say I was despite him never meeting me, never training with me, never seeing me teach, never talking to a student about the training and despite the fact I use my training almost daily against real bad guys and have taught over a thousand other people to do the same thing successfully.  It got to the point my senior student got pissed off enough to offer to fly the guy in and put him up in a hotel and provide for all of his expenses so he could step on the mat with me personally.  He declined so fast I thought he hurt himself doing it.  

The point is that we need to define what is and what is not a fraud.  If a guy prints a 20th Dan on his computer and hangs out a shingle and starts teaching...does that make him a fraud?  If so, well there are a whole lot of highly respected masters from days gone by that would also be frauds if that is the measuring stick.  Now if he's selling certificates from an organization that he has no affiliation with (or authorization to do so) then we have a fraud and that can be handled from a legal standpoint.  

Just some things to toss out for consumption.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 15, 2014)

1) None of us has any authority to "allow" or "disallow" a given school to exist.

2) As you've doubtless noted in discussions here, there are serious disagreements among experienced martial artists about what techniques and methods of training are "effective" or "legitimate" or "realistic."

3) 90% of the martial arts history that people are taught is bogus. In many cases that includes lineage. Despite that, it's certainly not unheard of for an instructor with exaggerated or fabricated credentials and history to actually be a reasonably good martial artist or teacher.

Of course, there are plenty of schools out there run by crappy teachers with multiple self-awarded 10th dan certificates on the wall teaching really stupid material. If a prospective student wants to ask our opinion of a school, then we can give it. If you want to get actively involved in researching frauds, there's always Bullshido.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 15, 2014)

In general the non martial arts community are the ones taken in by frauds.  Some of the established martial arts community are also taken in because they do not check the credentials of other school owners.
Having had a instructor in my area that had all his certificates printed at a shop a friend of mine worked in and also having known that individual for most of my life I knew he was a fraud and a snake oil salesmen but his students loved him and thought he was the most knowledgeable martial artist they ever saw.  Telling them to check his credentials did no good they did not want to. Telling them that he could not possibly have studied under the people he claimed for as many years as he claimed and explaining why did no good.
People study under whom they want and believe what they want.   What makes it worse in the martial arts world is the soke factories and the members who will give you a rank if you rank them in your"art".


----------



## Argus (Sep 15, 2014)

To be honest, I often wonder this myself.

My heart sinks when I realize that, within my local area, unqualified instructors teaching questionable systems is not the exception, but the norm. It's the same feeling that I get when I see a "Japanese Steak House" or "Hibachi and Sushi Bar."

To use Japanese Restaurants an example, the general public doesn't know what real Japanese food even looks like. And if they tried it, many would be disappointed when it didn't meet their expectations of what a "Japanese restaurant" is supposed to be. There's a whole image out there of "what Japanese food is," that is completely bogus, but unless you can capitalize on a very niche market, you have to cater to it, lest unmet expectations and unfamiliarity breed disappointment and your business go under.

Of course, that's a general trend. You could replace Japanese Restaurants with "Starbucks" and discuss coffee to make the same point.

The same, I feel, happens ever more with Martial Arts. Everyone is new to Martial Arts at some point, and how they are introduced to it tends to shape their perceptions and expectations. And, that can be hard to change, so it's quite sad to see people being deceived and accustomed to that false perception.


----------



## Marnetmar (Sep 15, 2014)

Of course it's worth it. 

While we're at it:


----------



## Master Dan (Sep 15, 2014)

Given all the comments pro or con about being judgmental as who or what has authority to judge Video and You Tube does seem to say it all. I loved the Kung Fu fighting music thanks for that. I always keep an open door policy to help those who need more beneficial training for their health, self-defense or rank advancement. It is a sad thing to see a self proclaimed instructor who does not possess a single good or proper kick, block or punch of any use at all and then passes that on to his students. Sadder even is when they are offered free help for both them and their students but are faces with adhering to certain minimum standards based on good common sense explanations and regulations required in testing nothing to do with any financial requirement they turn it down? In fact showing videos with much pride over their forms that are painful at best to watch. You can only assume that they have decided their personal ego can just not handle the blow they do not meet the standards and must admit that someone knows more. Further more their alternative is to invent and believe their own lies as being true because they have managed to dupe and make believers of vulnerable people. I can only say help who you can and say a prayer for those chose to jump off the cliff. Maybe on the way down one of you can carry one of them on your back to the top and they will change?


----------



## K-man (Sep 15, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Of course it's worth it.
> 
> While we're at it:


So in the context of 'fraudulent' what is wrong with either of these videos? 
:asian:


----------



## Steve (Sep 15, 2014)

Argus said:


> To be honest, I often wonder this myself.
> 
> My heart sinks when I realize that, within my local area, unqualified instructors teaching questionable systems is not the exception, but the norm. It's the same feeling that I get when I see a "Japanese Steak House" or "Hibachi and Sushi Bar."
> 
> ...


Argus, I think you're touching on a couple of different things here.  Why does it make you sad to think about a Japanese restaurant in America?  Language is a shorthand.  Sushi in America can be excellent.  Sushi in America can be authentic.  Those two statements are not the same.  Why?  Because the term "sushi" has a textbook meaning, but it really refers to a particular kind of experience in America.  And that experience is typically different than in Japan.  

The same goes for Chinese food.  There's that old joke, "In China, they just call it food."  But the reality is that the typical Chinese family doesn't eat an eggroll or two, a bowl of Hot and Sour soup, Orange Chicken, Mongolian Beef, BBQ pork, fried rice and some cheap, black tea.  But, anywhere in America, that's what you get in a "Chinese" restaurant.  

It's not sad, at least not in my opinion.  It just is.  

And to an extent, that's what martial arts are, too.  When we talk about Martial Arts, I really have no problem with Tae Bo, Cardio Kickboxing or anything else.  The only real danger, I think, is when the business purports to sell something which they do not.  ie, they are "selling" self defense, but actually do not deliver it.  

I might be rambling a little, but I hope this makes sense.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 15, 2014)

K-man said:


> So in the context of 'fraudulent' what is wrong with either of these videos?
> :asian:



My question as well.  Admittedly, the technique being demonstrated is painfully, embarrassingly crappy. That doesn't make the practitioners fraudulent - just not very good.


----------



## punisher73 (Sep 15, 2014)

There is nothing new about "fake styles" or "made up styles".  If you read through Gichin Funakoshi's book, he mentions coming across schools in Japan with styles of karate that he had never heard of back on Okinawa.

My concern is with the "liars" that went to the MSU school of Martial Arts (Make stuff up).  If someone wants to create their own art, fine.  Either it will or won't stand the test of time after they are gone.  All arts are "made up" at some point anyways.  BUT, at least admit that what you are teaching is of your own creation and judge it on it's own merits.  I don't even think that lineage is important at that point, because you are just name dropping other instructors/styles to make you seem more legitmate instead of letting your own creation stand on it's own merits.


----------



## K-man (Sep 15, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My question as well.  Admittedly, the technique being demonstrated is painfully, embarrassingly crappy. That doesn't make the practitioners fraudulent - just not very good.


Agreed but I'm not sure what the context of the competition was. The guys demonstrating kihon were doing just that. I look at guys going for high gradings in karate and wonder why you would bother with kihon, but they do it to demonstrate an understanding, not necessarily a practical understanding. The guy with the sword was interesting. What he was demonstrating was actually quite good, apart from one deplorable disarm. Again, I'm not sure what the competition entailed.

The second video was mainly kata. Whether it was good or bad doesn't really phase me. Do they understand what they are doing? Well, that worries me more but, as you said, doesn't make anything fraudulent.
:asian:


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 15, 2014)

K-man said:


> So in the context of 'fraudulent' what is wrong with either of these videos?
> :asian:



In the first video, I think the major issue is that you have a Korean martial art school (Kyuki-do) performing traditional Japanese swordplay.

The second video is just sloppy Kata. I find it ridiculous that belts at that level can't perform basic kicks and punches. However, while its clearly a McDojo, I don't think its fraudulent.

That staff kata was pretty funny though. Looked like she was twirling a baton at a parade.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 15, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> The second video is just sloppy Kata.



I like the way they added a "hip throw" followed by a downward punch in the middle of their form. The instructor had "open mind" and that's for sure. I always like to give people credit if they have "open mind". 

I hate people to say that 

- this is against my style principle, or 
- we don't do this in our styles.

That means they just put a physical limitation on themselves for no good reason. the word "cross training" is a NO NO to them.

I have tried to suggest WC guys to add "hip throw" into their forms without any luck. Since I'm a long fist guy, I don't mind to add "hip throw" into my long fist form. I think it's a good idea. Why is it a good idea? It will remind the future generation that there is another area that they will need to explore. Since the "hip throw" is the mother of all throws, to add "hip throw" into your form does make sense no matter what style that you may train.


----------



## K-man (Sep 15, 2014)

punisher73 said:


> There is nothing new about "fake styles" or "made up styles".  If you read through Gichin Funakoshi's book, he mentions coming across schools in Japan with styles of karate that he had never heard of back on Okinawa.
> 
> My concern is with the "liars" that went to the MSU school of Martial Arts (Make stuff up).  If someone wants to create their own art, fine.  Either it will or won't stand the test of time after they are gone.  All arts are "made up" at some point anyways.  BUT, at least admit that what you are teaching is of your own creation and judge it on it's own merits.  I don't even think that lineage is important at that point, because you are just name dropping other instructors/styles to make you seem more legitmate instead of letting your own creation stand on it's own merits.



I had never heard of Kyuki-do before this thread so I went to check it out. It's been around for 40+ years! it says that it is a combination of styles, it doesn't claim fantastic lineage. I also found a thread on Bullshido dissing it and one of their members who actually had his kids involved in Kyuki-do tried to defend it. That was about as effective as a one legged goat trying to defend itself against a pack of rabid dogs. Those guys didn't want to know anything that was good about the style. They knew already that it had to be crap!



Hanzou said:


> In the first video, I think the major issue is that you have a Korean martial art school (Kyuki-do) performing traditional Japanese swordplay.
> 
> The second video is just sloppy Kata. I find it ridiculous that belts at that level can't perform basic kicks and punches. However, while its clearly a McDojo, I don't think its fraudulent.
> 
> That staff kata was pretty funny though. Looked like she was twirling a baton at a parade.


Hmm. I'm under the impression that Hapkido is the Korean version of Aikido. The last time I practised sword in Aikido, last week in fact, we were performing the same techniques. If you have a major issue with Hapkido people using Japanese techniques then out the door goes all the rest of it too. I mean the bulk of TKD is based on Shotokan. Then Kyuki-do claims to have incorporated Judo into its training. Last time I looked that was of Japanese origin.   Then, of course, a lot of schools have been criticised for ignoring grappling but when a school introduces Judo it it is not authentic because it is not Korean. 

Now it's interesting that you call the school in the second video McDojo. The research that I did didn't indicate that at all so how is it clearly a McDojo?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 15, 2014)

My opinion, not to be seen as "Official".

In regard to Bullshido as a quality judge of what is true in the arts, I'd suggest checking better references.  Having been personally attacked several times on there, having watched as MartialTalk was roasted repeatedly, having personally had to ban countless members of their site after a number of board invasions here, I find them less that reputable, and more "Angsty Teener". I've found few serious professional martial artists who hold them in high regard.  While some of their "investigations" target actual frauds, often times they have been just pileons by trolls hiding behind the anonymity of the site. It's telling that in the 13 years I owned MartialTalk, we worked cooperatively with over 30 other martial arts communities including MAP, Deluxe, E-Budo and Budoseek.  Bullshido was never on that list by their choice.

Regarding frauds, any idiot can send a check to some soke board and get a ring and a piece of paper. I have one myself, 31st dan soke of Kung-a-te. It's not worth the paper it's printed on.  

Martial Talk's long had a policy forbiding "Hot Pursuits" (where a member would follow another around demanding answers to questions often disrupting unrelated threads), and rabid "Fraud Busting".  A real investigation into a persons background and credentials requires time, money and expertise that few forums have on hand. I've had a number of people offer to send me "proof", be it videos, certificates, etc.  My FMA background doesn't qualify me as an expert in the KMA. Seeing a cert means nothing to me as unless I was there, or can find people who were, validating it is, difficult.  We've had the position that if a member wanted to ask questions or share concerns and research, as long as it didn't disrupt the normal operation of this site or put us at legal risk, it would be fine.


----------



## K-man (Sep 15, 2014)

Bob Hubbard said:


> My opinion, not to be seen as "Official".
> 
> In regard to Bullshido as a quality judge of what is true in the arts, I'd suggest checking better references.  Having been personally attacked several times on there, having watched as MartialTalk was roasted repeatedly, having personally had to ban countless members of their site after a number of board invasions here, I find them less that reputable, and more "Angsty Teener". I've found few serious professional martial artists who hold them in high regard.  While some of their "investigations" target actual frauds, often times they have been just pileons by trolls hiding behind the anonymity of the site. It's telling that in the 13 years I owned MartialTalk, we worked cooperatively with over 30 other martial arts communities including MAP, Deluxe, E-Budo and Budoseek.  Bullshido was never on that list by their choice.
> 
> ...


I'm not using Bullshido as a source to reference. I was using it as an example of how bad it can be when people try to discredit a particular style or even a person. I ended up there via a reference to Kyuki-do. In this instance a parent and martial artist in his own right tried to explain that the training was actually good. Nobody wanted to listen to a positive statement, even though it was from a first hand source.


I was just interested in the comments posted about a style I had never seen before. The comment posted with the videos implied that it was a fraudulent style which I queried and so far there hasn't been a response from *Marnetmar*. The other comment was from *Hanzou* stating that it was _clearly a McDojo_. Now it may well be but I could find nothing to suggest that was the case either, hence my question.
:asian:


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 15, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> In the first video, I think the major issue is that you have a Korean martial art school (Kyuki-do) performing traditional Japanese swordplay.



i don't care if they're doing Japanese swordplay. It's a modern eclectic art and they can borrow from wherever they want to. Just about all of the Korean arts are derived from Japanese arts anyway.

I do have a problem with how _badly_ the sword techniques were done, but that doesn't make it fraudulent. Fortunately, the practitioners will almost certainly never have to defend themselves against a sword in real life.


----------



## K-man (Sep 15, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> i don't care if they're doing Japanese swordplay. It's a modern eclectic art and they can borrow from wherever they want to. Just about all of the Korean arts are derived from Japanese arts anyway.
> 
> I do have a problem with how _badly_ the sword techniques were done, but that doesn't make it fraudulent. Fortunately, the practitioners will almost certainly never have to defend themselves against a sword in real life.


I'm not sure what they were trying to achieve. Even as a demonstration of sword taking from a set position was less than ordinary, then it's easy for me to say that from the comfort of home. I'm not sure it's being taught to defend against a sword. More that, with a weapon techniques such as kote gaeshi are easier to explain and teach.

If these videos are meant to encourage people to sign up ... um, no!
:asian:


----------



## Argus (Sep 16, 2014)

Steve said:


> The same goes for Chinese food.  There's that old joke, "In China, they just call it food."  But the reality is that the typical Chinese family doesn't eat an eggroll or two, a bowl of Hot and Sour soup, Orange Chicken, Mongolian Beef, BBQ pork, fried rice and some cheap, black tea.  But, anywhere in America, that's what you get in a "Chinese" restaurant.



It's sad when you know and like authentic Chinese food. And can't find it.

I won't argue that there's no value in these things. It's just sad when they become so prolific that people can't tell the difference anymore, and the real stuff becomes exceedingly difficult to find (or even market, for that matter).


----------



## K-man (Sep 16, 2014)

Argus said:


> It's sad when you know and like authentic Chinese food. And can't find it.
> 
> I won't argue that there's no value in these things. It's just sad when they become so prolific that people can't tell the difference anymore, and the real stuff becomes exceedingly difficult to find (or even market, for that matter).


Exactly what happened to Karate.
:asian:


----------



## Steve (Sep 16, 2014)

Argus said:


> It's sad when you know and like authentic Chinese food. And can't find it.
> 
> I won't argue that there's no value in these things. It's just sad when they become so prolific that people can't tell the difference anymore, and the real stuff becomes exceedingly difficult to find (or even market, for that matter).


LOL.  I hear you.  But, my opinion on that is that you shouldn't expect authentic jambalaya in Seattle, or authentic Chicken Fried Steak in Chicago.  You don't go to Oklahoma for crab cakes.  Crab cakes are an East Coast treat.  Chicken Fried Steak is best when it's made by a real Southern cook.  Jambalaya is best in Louisiana (my favorite is chicken and sausage, the way they make it more commonly around Baton Rouge, as opposed New Orleans style).  

It's about where you are in relation to what you want.  In the same way, you shouldn't expect authentic Chinese food outside of China.  It's not realistic.  It's better, I think, to enjoy it for what it is.  

Regarding the fraud busting thing, i just want to point out that voicing a negative opinion of a video or even of a style is not "fraud busting."  We all have opinions, and sometimes, people here allege some pretty silly things.  It's not much worth talking if we aren't being frank and honest about things.  Where the videos are concerned, people have made their opinions very clearly known without style bashing or fraud busting.


----------



## Buka (Sep 16, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> While I find all of this entertaining, I can't help but wonder if we  as martial artists should allow such places to exist. Dojo storming was all the rage back in the day, but I don't think that many people have the stomach (or the legal fees) for that anymore. However, don't we have a responsibility to make sure that people are taught true martial arts? Do we sit back and let frauds and charlatans teach people garbage that could wind up getting them injured or killed? Conversely, should we live and let live, and hope that the students eventually find a legitimate style to train in?
> 
> I'm interested in your thoughts.



Oh, if we only lived in a perfect world. Charlatans probably ain't going anywhere soon, they've been around a long time. Yes, it's frustrating, but what can ya' do? Other than warning off a friend about going to one......but as I think about it, I've never known a friend that would, there aren't a lot of options other than training as hard as we can and being thankful for what we got, a damn good dojo.

Although......the idea of The Karate Police is kind of intriguing. Maybe we could get really cool hats.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2014)

K-man said:


> Hmm. I'm under the impression that Hapkido is the Korean version of Aikido. The last time I practised sword in Aikido, last week in fact, we were performing the same techniques. If you have a major issue with Hapkido people using Japanese techniques then out the door goes all the rest of it too. I mean the bulk of TKD is based on Shotokan. Then Kyuki-do claims to have incorporated Judo into its training. Last time I looked that was of Japanese origin.   Then, of course, a lot of schools have been criticised for ignoring grappling but when a school introduces Judo it it is not authentic because it is not Korean.



Oh so Hapkido is now claiming that their locks come from Aikido? That's new. Traditionally they claimed that it came from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu.

Anyway, I have no problem with KMAs using JMA techniques. I just think rocking the traditional Japanese garb is a bit much. They should wear the typical KMA uniforms.



> Now it's interesting that you call the school in the second video McDojo. The research that I did didn't indicate that at all so how is it clearly a McDojo?



Upper belts/ Black Belts doing sloppy techniques= McDojo.


----------



## Argus (Sep 16, 2014)

Steve said:


> LOL.  I hear you.  But, my opinion on that is that you shouldn't expect authentic jambalaya in Seattle, or authentic Chicken Fried Steak in Chicago.  You don't go to Oklahoma for crab cakes.  Crab cakes are an East Coast treat.  Chicken Fried Steak is best when it's made by a real Southern cook.  Jambalaya is best in Louisiana (my favorite is chicken and sausage, the way they make it more commonly around Baton Rouge, as opposed New Orleans style).
> 
> It's about where you are in relation to what you want.  In the same way, you shouldn't expect authentic Chinese food outside of China.  It's not realistic.  It's better, I think, to enjoy it for what it is.



Being from Louisiana, your Jambalaya example hits home. Still, I can't help but be disappointed when I try "Jambalaya" or "Gumbo" just a state away. Not many people do to well with it here in Mississippi. I'm just spoiled on the good stuff, I guess 

I get your point, though, and you make a good one. It's always better to enjoy things for what they are. Or just seek out what your area is known for.

I still don't think I'll find myself grabbing a caramel macchiato before heading off to train _Don-Jeetsoo-Reeyoo_, and ending the day with sushi & hibachi, but maybe I'll opt for some BJJ and good Southern cooking


----------



## K-man (Sep 16, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Oh so Hapkido is now claiming that their locks come from Aikido? That's new. Traditionally they claimed that it came from Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu.
> 
> Anyway, I have no problem with KMAs using JMA techniques. I just think rocking the traditional Japanese garb is a bit much. They should wear the typical KMA uniforms.
> 
> ...


Well the word is written with the same Chinese characters as Aikido, the numbered techniques are the same as Aikido and there is no evidence I am aware of that Choi studied under Sokaku despite the claim. Either way it is still Japanese origin.

So because they don't fit your idea of what they should be they are McDojo. Sorry, you have no idea of McDojo.  I don't mind kata that is not perfect and it is not a grading requirement to be perfect. I much prefer a student to demonstrate an understanding of the kata. In fact for my guys that is the requirement. Perfect kata is for competition and means nothing to me.


----------



## Marnetmar (Sep 16, 2014)

For the record, my main issue with the kyukido videos was grabbing your opponent's katana by the blade and then swinging them around with it.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2014)

K-man said:


> So because they don't fit your idea of what they should be they are McDojo. Sorry, you have no idea of McDojo.  I don't mind kata that is not perfect and it is not a grading requirement to be perfect. I much prefer a student to demonstrate an understanding of the kata. In fact for my guys that is the requirement. Perfect kata is for competition and means nothing to me.



Its not about doing perfect Kata, it's about being able to perform techniques indicative of a high ranking martial artist. Sloppy technique should be unacceptable at that level, unless you're just trying to push people through the belt system in order to collect money.


----------



## Argus (Sep 16, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Its not about doing perfect Kata, it's about being able to perform techniques indicative of a high ranking martial artist. Sloppy technique should be unacceptable at that level, unless you're just trying to push people through the belt system in order to collect money.



I thought you didn't believe in forms, Hanzou? 

I'm with you on sloppy technique, but I wonder if that isn't what K-man is refering to. A strange thing that I notice (at least in Karate, for example) is that, for competition, people seem to often try to make their forms "look good," chasing aesthetics as much as practical application. That's not what forms should be about. They're merely a training tool, and should be treated as such.

Sometimes, I have half the mind to enter a forms competition and just pick one small section to work on freely and repeatedly for 10 minutes without any pretense of performance


----------



## jezr74 (Sep 16, 2014)

I don't think it's not unusual for more experienced higher ranks to neglect basic and starter forms. It's human nature, and not restricted by occupation.

That's why I think it's good when higher ranks need to go back to basics in class to refresh. I'd see it as an oversight more than anything as compared to fraudulent, and the result is sloppy kata and embarrassment.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 16, 2014)

Argus said:


> I thought you didn't believe in forms, Hanzou?



I don't. :supcool:



> I'm with you on sloppy technique, but I wonder if that isn't what K-man is refering to. A strange thing that I notice (at least in Karate, for example) is that, for competition, people seem to often try to make their forms "look good," chasing aesthetics as much as practical application. That's not what forms should be about. They're merely a training tool, and should be treated as such.



Wushu has Karate beat in that department. Might as well be a gymnastics competition.

 My main issue with that clip is the fact that they're upper ranks and just going through the motions. At black belt you really shouldn't be performing that badly in forms. The black belts are the standard bearers of your school.


----------



## K-man (Sep 16, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> For the record, my main issue with the kyukido videos was grabbing your opponent's katana by the blade and then swinging them around with it.


Agree 100% with that one. As I said earlier some terrible sword taking.
:asian:


----------



## K-man (Sep 16, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Its not about doing perfect Kata, it's about being able to perform techniques indicative of a high ranking martial artist. Sloppy technique should be unacceptable at that level, unless you're just trying to push people through the belt system in order to collect money.


I just watched them again and I'm sorry to disagree. I am not familiar with the kata but I have no problem with how it was performed. Same with the bo. 

And as for origins, word in Aikido circles is that Choi Yong-Sool trained with Ueshiba in Japan.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 16, 2014)

My issue would be things like this.
BECOMING A MUAY THAI ?KRU? » The Official Luke Holloway Site

Now Luke is a master Thai trainer seen with all the cool guys but who has never had a fight himself and never trained a Thai fighter.

If some chimp goes to him expecting to gain skills that would let them survive a ring fight that chimp is going to get hurt.


----------



## WaterGal (Sep 17, 2014)

Argus said:


> I thought you didn't believe in forms, Hanzou?
> 
> I'm with you on sloppy technique, but I wonder if that isn't what K-man is refering to. A strange thing that I notice (at least in Karate, for example) is that, for competition, people seem to often try to make their forms "look good," chasing aesthetics as much as practical application. That's not what forms should be about. They're merely a training tool, and should be treated as such.
> 
> Sometimes, I have half the mind to enter a forms competition and just pick one small section to work on freely and repeatedly for 10 minutes without any pretense of performance



I think the reason there's so much focus on "looking good", on having every technique be sharp and picture-perfect and having very high kicks (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "looking good") is because it demonstrates strength, balance, power, and control and shows that you know all the techniques very well.  I mean, for example, nobody in a real fight is going to do a head-level side kick and just hold it there for a couple seconds like you see in competitions, but it takes a lot of balance, strength, and skill to be physically able to do that.  Any white belt can do a mid-level side kick, so doing the form the other way makes you stand out as having more skill and training. (Edit: To clarify, I don't meant that someone that chooses to do a form with a mid-level side kick doesn't have skill or strength or the ability to do more.)


----------



## Marnetmar (Sep 19, 2014)

K-man said:


> Agree 100% with that one. As I said earlier some terrible sword taking.
> :asian:



Just think though, a Katana is capable of slashing through someone's body in a tenth of a second.


----------



## Balrog (Sep 19, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I have no time for frauds, charlatans and fools*.  Fraud in the martial arts is some thing we should all be concerned about.  Like Blindside said if someone asks me for my opinion I will gladly give it and with brutal honesty.  Likewise my time is way to valuable for me to be chasing down every piss poor martial artist and fraudulent instructor.
> 
> Yet, I do believe in standing up for what is right and if I feel I can make a difference in some way or to help someone stay away from fraudulent people then I will!  I wrote a blog post about this awhile ago and it also links to an even better post on this subject by Don Roley on his excellent blog.
> 
> ...



Good advice.  It's because of all the fly-by-night scam artists in the past that we today have difficulties running schools.

When I have a new prospect visit the school, they will see my rank certificate and my Master's certificate and my school license very openly displayed for all to see.  In the office, I have photo plaques of the original owner (my instructor), the second owner (now inactive) and me as the third owner of this school.  I've never had anyone ask about my training, but if they did, I can open up a web browser and show them my entire testing history, and I can give them the 800 number for ATA HQ to verify my standing as an instructor.


----------



## K-man (Sep 19, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Just think though, a Katana is capable of slashing through someone's body in a tenth of a second.


There are legitimate disarms against the sword and there are numerous empty hand techniques based on the movement you would perform with a sword. One of those disarms involves placing your hand on the back of the sword. I tried to enlarge the video to see what was done but the quality is too poor to see. I'll just go with sloppy for now.

Would I like to be facing a real live Katana empty handed? No way!
:asian:


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 19, 2014)

K-man said:


> There are legitimate disarms against the sword and there are numerous empty hand techniques based on the movement you would perform with a sword. One of those disarms involves placing your hand on the back of the sword. I tried to enlarge the video to see what was done but the quality is too poor to see. I'll just go with sloppy for now.
> 
> Would I like to be facing a real live Katana empty handed? No way!
> :asian:



"Sloppy" is being polite. I'm seeing serious problems with both the sword attacks and the disarms.  Doesn't mean they're fraudulent - but I wouldn't want them publicly representing my school.


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> My issue would be things like this.
> BECOMING A MUAY THAI ?KRU? » The Official Luke Holloway Site
> 
> Now Luke is a master Thai trainer seen with all the cool guys but who has never had a fight himself and never trained a Thai fighter.
> ...



  However, you could take that a step further and say that if some chimp wants to train for a ring fight but can't be bothered to research who he's giving his money to, then he deserves to get hurt. Why should it be other people's responsibility to protect him from his own stupidity?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 19, 2014)

pgsmith said:


> However, you could take that a step further and say that if some chimp wants to train for a ring fight but can't be bothered to research who he's giving his money to, then he deserves to get hurt. Why should it be other people's responsibility to protect him from his own stupidity?




I like the idea that martial arts is a comunity.


----------



## Hong Kong Pooey (Sep 19, 2014)

pgsmith said:


> However, you could take that a step further and say that if some chimp wants to train for a ring fight but can't be bothered to research who he's giving his money to, then he deserves to get hurt. Why should it be other people's responsibility to protect him from his own stupidity?



Caveat Emptor. The concept is so old they wrote it in Latin.

To be fair though, you don't necessarily have to be stupid to get duped.


----------



## MJS (Sep 20, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> So recently a dojo has come under attack for being fraudulent. This dojo claims to combine Ninjutsu, Aikijutsu, and some other unpronounceable ancient  Japanese arts, and began to really promote their art to the world via YouTube and other social media. The online MA community responded in kind, quickly investigating this dojo, and discovering that a lot of their claims are false or made up. Their demonstrations are full of silly things that any experienced artist could see is completely bogus. Yet this school appears quite successful, and full of students who enjoy their training.
> 
> The "Soke" hasn't been too happy with the criticism of his style, and has responded in kind, with his students defending him, and his training methods.
> 
> ...



Personally, I'm not interested in being a card carrying member of the Martial Arts Police Dept.  If someone wants to be a fake, fraud, do shady things...well, sure it sucks, sure it makes me mad, to see these fake idiots, scamming unsuspecting people out of their hard earned money, but in the end, what can you do?  If someone asks me, and they have, about a school, if I have a recommendation, etc, sure, I'll be more than happy to guide them in the right direction, but other than that, I have no desire to 'storm' a dojo.  Sorry, I've got better things to do with my time.  In the end, the actions of the frauds, will eventually come to light.  They'll have to answer for their shady actions.


----------



## Balrog (Sep 21, 2014)

Steve said:


> LOL.  I hear you.  But, my opinion on that is that you shouldn't expect authentic jambalaya in Seattle, or authentic Chicken Fried Steak in Chicago.  You don't go to Oklahoma for crab cakes.  Crab cakes are an East Coast treat.  Chicken Fried Steak is best when it's made by a real Southern cook.  Jambalaya is best in Louisiana (my favorite is chicken and sausage, the way they make it more commonly around Baton Rouge, as opposed New Orleans style).


Well, kindasorta.  Suppose old Boudreaux, for whatever reason, moved to Seattle with his family recipes and opened a Cajun place there.  Does that make his jambalaya or his hushpuppies or his grillades and grits any less authentic?  

My wife is originally from New Orleans and she can smell out a good Louisiana restaurant within 20 miles of the house.  We had one we used to go to all the time until the owner retired and sold it (breaking our hearts in the process).  The guy that ran it was an old swamprunner from down by New Iberia who moved to Houston 30 some-odd years before.  Once he got to know us as regulars and found out that SWMBO knows her way around a kitchen and can make a roux, he'd see us come up to the door and he'd hustle over and put his arm around her shoulder and say stuff like, "You come on with me, cher, I take good care of you.  Him, if he wants to tag along behind, dat's okay, too."  And then we would order and he'd always add something on as a surprise.  He'd bring out a bowl of "special" gumbo or etouffee or something and set it down in front of her and say, "Heah, cher, dis for you.  You wanna give him a little taste of it, dat's up to you."  And then they would talk recipes and cooking.

We really miss that place.  And now I'm hungry.


----------



## Steve (Sep 21, 2014)

Hidden gems are great like that, but I'm talking rule not exception.  You can find authentic sushi in America.  But that's not the norm.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## tshadowchaser (Sep 21, 2014)

seems like there a only a couple of tings that can be done with Frauds in the arts.

1. go in and close the school the way it was done 40-50 years ago

2. have the better business people get involved and the local newspaper ( maybe an investigated article)

3. Have the local district attorney get involed  

now do we really want number 2 and 3?  I for one do not want government involved. Plus if you can not prove
 the person is a fraud you are open to all sorts of legal action. I do like number one but once again the legal people frown an that sort of thing.

So other than just telling someone your opinion if asked what can be done


----------



## TXRob (Sep 23, 2014)

Exposing fraudulent styles...Worth it? 

What is a fraudulent style? Who gets to decide? Now there may be fraudulent claims of experience, or who they trained with, but style?

I have seen bad Masters within all credible organizations. No organization is without polotics! I have seen some of the best martial artist come out of back yard clubs with no affiliation at all. Rank is within one's own dojo or organization. Organizations are like Universities that don't allow all credits to transfer. 
The fact is if students are flocking to the fraud, that is what they want. Hey earn a Green Belt in a couple of styles, throw in a little boxing, and you can open a school and call it MMA. Your school will be full! 
If you keep teaching with strict protocal, trying to provide certification for your students, you can wind up like me, without a school!


----------



## Buka (Sep 23, 2014)

TXRob said:


> Exposing fraudulent styles...Worth it?
> 
> What is a fraudulent style? Who gets to decide? Now there may be fraudulent claims of experience, or who they trained with, but style?
> 
> ...



Welcome to the forum, TXRob. Glad to have you aboard.


----------



## Buka (Sep 23, 2014)

Hong Kong Pooey said:


> Caveat Emptor. The concept is so old they wrote it in Latin.
> 
> To be fair though, you don't necessarily have to be stupid to get duped.



"The concept is so old they wrote it in Latin."  Damn, I really love that line.


----------

