# Hello i have a question about Kyusho Jitsu or Dim Mak



## bogdy23 (Dec 18, 2015)

Hello,

Do any of the 2 have techniques that can kill someone but not instantly after a few days or something.You do the technique and then after a period of time something pops in them.Is this true or its just a hollywood myth.
Thank you


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## Paul_D (Dec 18, 2015)

I believe it's a myth based on fact.  

This is how Houdini supposedly died.  He was hit in the abdomen, which ruptured his appendix.  As he did not seek medical help, he died a few days later.

Imagine you are in China several hundred years ago, and you are either not close enough to medical help or they don't, during you period in history, have the sufficient medical knowledge to help you, you will die 2-3 days after the initial blow.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 18, 2015)

Another possibility...

You're a martial arts instructor in that time period and a rival dies from unknown causes (not uncommon in a period without effective medicine). You can claim that during that sparring session where your rival kicked your butt last week you actually hit him with a delayed death touch, hopefully increasing your reputation for baddassitude and therefore your student base.

Theories about its origin aside, the delayed death touch is a myth, although one that predates Hollywood.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 18, 2015)

Delayed death touch can happen for any number of reasons but most are due to some neglected medical problem that may or not be known to the people involved.  A blow that causes a blood clot that suddenly moves is a good example.
The ability to cause a delayed "death touch" is more than likely more myth then actuality.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 18, 2015)

Imagine that you are a trained fighter in a small village a hundred or more years ago.  You teach students, you have a reputation.  One of your rivals from a neighboring village dies of some undetermined illness.  People ask you if you had anything to do with that, and you nod and say _"We fought five night ago in the clearing just outside of town.  I applied a secret technique known only to me; this is the result."  _Suddenly you have more students.  And the beauty part is that you don't have to teach them this secret technique - too dangerous.  Reserved only for the successor of the style, to be taught in secret and passed on in secret.  And if some BS technique is indeed passed on, how can it be tested without killing some poor soul (even if it won't in fact kill them, the fear is that it will).  And the legend grows into history and slowly becomes 'fact'.

FYI, this is also how witch-doctors and others demonstrated their ability to cast the 'evil eye' or 'curse the crops' or whatever.  Something happens, they claim they did it.  Such power!  The people of that time were not stupid; but they were without real science and much of their lives were controlled by superstition.  When your king or emperor is a 'god' and the seasons are controlled by deities, there isn't much reason to doubt that a magic man can indeed cause crops to fail or cure disease or cause an enemy to suddenly drop dead.  What's more, though the power of suggestion, sometimes it might actually work; the magic man casts a love spell, both parties know they've been magicked, and shazam, they fall in love as they think they are forced to by the magic.


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## Mephisto (Dec 18, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> I believe it's a myth based on fact.
> 
> This is how Houdini supposedly died.  He was hit in the abdomen, which ruptured his appendix.  As he did not seek medical help, he died a few days later.
> 
> Imagine you are in China several hundred years ago, and you are either not close enough to medical help or they don't, during you period in history, have the sufficient medical knowledge to help you, you will die 2-3 days after the initial blow.


The abdomen punch didn't rupture his appendix, good ol' nature did that on its own. Houdini simply ignored the symptoms that one would otherwise notice due to his habit if getting punched in the gut. If the stomach punch hadn't have happened, Houdini's appendix still would have ruptured, the appendix rupture and punch were unrelated.


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## lklawson (Dec 18, 2015)

Atrial fibrillation induced by commotio cordis secondary to a blunt chest trauma in a teenage boy.  - PubMed - NCBI


> Pediatrics. 2015 Jan;135(1):e199-201. doi: 10.1542/peds.2014-1972. Epub 2014 Dec 8.
> Atrial fibrillation induced by commotio cordis secondary to a blunt chest trauma in a teenage boy.
> Ota K1, Bratincsak A2.
> Author information
> ...



The reader's digest version is that if a person is hit in the chest, in exactly the right spot, at exactly the right time between heartbeats (translation, "almost impossible to do deliberately") then a fibrillation can be triggered which can last anywhere from a few minutes to several days and can "resolve" itself or could lead to death due to a-fib. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## bogdy23 (Dec 18, 2015)

Ok so im getting that it dosen`t exist my sensei told me that it does as i keep asking him about 6 dan techniques how do they look like and so on.But he also tends to exagerate probably to keep me intrested in coming to his school.
So i gues there are only killing kyusho technique that do the job instantly i want to go to an Evan Patanzi seminar as i think kyusho is the coolest thing in martial arts


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 18, 2015)

bogdy23 said:


> Ok so im getting that it dosen`t exist my sensei told me that it does as i keep asking him about 6 dan techniques how do they look like and so on.But he also tends to exagerate probably to keep me intrested in coming to his school.
> So i gues there are only killing kyusho technique that do the job instantly i want to go to an Evan Patanzi seminar as i think kyusho is the coolest thing in martial arts



Best of luck with that.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 18, 2015)

Terms of use, forbid bashing and such, so I will only say this as advise...
From my own experience I have never met anyone who could actually demonstrate the claims made about kyusho, pressure points. No knock outs, no death touch, no nothing. This only leaves me to believe after so many years of searching that it does not really exist. I would advise to find a reputable style and spend my money and time there.
And yes I know Evan and have met and worked with many of his seniors.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 18, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Another possibility...
> 
> You're a martial arts instructor in that time period and a rival dies from unknown causes (not uncommon in a period without effective medicine). You can claim that during that sparring session where your rival kicked your butt last week you actually hit him with a delayed death touch, hopefully increasing your reputation for baddassitude and therefore your student base.
> 
> Theories about its origin aside, the delayed death touch is a myth, although one that predates Hollywood.


An eye whip was a death touch, when infection set in. I would say, "Get Real", but your attempt to get real, shot you into  the future


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## bogdy23 (Dec 19, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Terms of use, forbid bashing and such, so I will only say this as advise...
> From my own experience I have never met anyone who could actually demonstrate the claims made about kyusho, pressure points. No knock outs, no death touch, no nothing. This only leaves me to believe after so many years of searching that it does not really exist. I would advise to find a reputable style and spend my money and time there.
> And yes I know Evan and have met and worked with many of his seniors.




Why would you want to bash me?i only asked a question im just curious


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## Flatfish (Dec 19, 2015)

I am pretty sure he was referring to style bashing not a personal attack


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## JR 137 (Dec 19, 2015)

bogdy23 said:


> Why would you want to bash me?i only asked a question im just curious



As previously said, also sure he meant the style, not you.

If kyusho and the like were truly realistic and reliable, don't you think every police department and jail/prison would have its officers throughly trained in it?  Resisting offenders would get KO'ed the humane way quickly and easily without any long lasting or even short term ill effects?  Think about it - a suspect grabs a cop in an altercation, the officer hits hit arm and gently knife-hand strikes his neck, causing a KO.  He cuffs him, and wakes him up George Dillman-style, and everyone's able to walk away unharmed.

I guess it's so hard to learn and teach that the people training law enforcement officers, many of whom are long time martial artists BTW, can't figure it out.  There are people who's jobs are to figure out better/more humane/less liable tactics and train the officers in them.

Don't you think at least 1 pro fighter would've figured it out, KO'ed everyone in seconds, made a ton of money, then made books and videos and become the Bill Gates of self defense?

Truly effective kyusho would be a millionaire making thing.  That secret wouldn't be kept for very long, not close to the 1000s of years that's claimed.

One claim of the delayed death touch that I think could have some merit is if you bruised someone's heart, it could cause a heart attack months down the road.  Blood clotting and eventually causing a heart attack makes sense.  However, if someone had their heart bruised, they'd most likely be in such pain that they'd get it checked out.  Or head trauma/concussion that in some cases doesn't show symptoms until hours later and/or the person dies in their sleep that night.  

Furthermore, why delay the death if you're in a fight 'til the death like in the old movies?  So your opponent can kill you after you gave him a 30 death sentence?

Look up George Dillman online.  While he's an extreme example nowadays, he was taken more seriously before he started his no-touch KOs.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2015)

JR 137 said:


> If kyusho and the like were truly realistic and reliable, don't you think every police department and jail/prison would have its officers throughly trained in it?  Resisting offenders would get KO'ed the humane way quickly and easily without any long lasting or even short term ill effects?  Think about it - a suspect grabs a cop in an altercation, the officer hits hit arm and gently knife-hand strikes his neck, causing a KO.  He cuffs him, and wakes him up George Dillman-style, and everyone's able to walk away unharmed.



There is some validity to some kyusho. The problem is that while some of the pressure point techniques work, none of them work as easily as claimed. None of them work on everybody, although everybody is affected by some. And none of them work by magic either. No contact = no worky.

PPCT could easily be classified as a subset of kyusho.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 19, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is some validity to some kyusho. The problem is that while some of the pressure point techniques work, none of them work as easily as claimed. None of them work on everybody, although everybody is affected by some. And none of them work by magic either. No contact = no worky.
> 
> PPCT could easily be classified as a subset of kyusho.



I agree. There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept. Just not as easy to do in practice. Mostly parlor tricks of the "stand here and I'll strike you thusly" variety.


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## JR 137 (Dec 19, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is some validity to some kyusho. The problem is that while some of the pressure point techniques work, none of them work as easily as claimed. None of them work on everybody, although everybody is affected by some. And none of them work by magic either. No contact = no worky.
> 
> PPCT could easily be classified as a subset of kyusho.



I agree there's some validity.  Hitting the carotid sinus (in the neck) will cause a KO, striking on nerves will cause a lot of pain, etc.  My issue with it is pretty much none of them will cause a KO simply using a tap.  Guys like Dillman will show something like a block to pressure points in the inside of the shin followed by a tap to a spot on the face next to the nose causing a guy to black out.  Nonsense.

I used pressure points in wrestling quite often, as did others, without thinking of them as pressure points or kyusho.  Simple stuff like dig your forehead into your opponent's temple during tie-ups to create space, pressing on the biceps tendon with your chin to get their shoulder to the mat for a pin, and so on.

Pressure points are probably most useful in tuite type stuff.

Just my opinions.  Way too much mysticism in the MA IMO.


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 19, 2015)

bogdy23 said:


> Why would you want to bash me?i only asked a question im just curious


as was stated before i could get back to the thread to answer, i wasnt bashing you at all.  i gave a piece of advise to "find a reputable school in something and spend your money and time there".  i think others have made posts that represent my feelings as well.  


JR 137 said:


> If kyusho and the like were truly realistic and reliable, don't you think every police department and jail/prison would have its officers throughly trained in it?


for what its worth some kyusho guys have been asked to demonstrate for international defensive tactics instructors and were totally unable to knock anyone out.

for the sake of the conversation i should make the distinction between authentic week points on the human body like the neck and kyusho which is based on the chi meridians that like accupuncture use strikes in combination to disrupt the chi flow and as result has some kind of adverse effect on the person...like a knock out or death.
there are many vital points or weak spots on the body but none of which have anything to do with chi lines.





the best quote line is at 5:18 into the clip.....this says it all.

if anyone is a believer thats ok with me.  i really want to believe as well.  i have just been waiting a really long time for someone to come alone to prove it to me.  a little like Harry Houdini's widow waiting for Harry to come back somehow to prove the existence of life after death.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 19, 2015)

See if they teach Ameri-do-te in your area. By far the best system I've ever seen.


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## lklawson (Dec 21, 2015)

I know of at least 5 "Pressure Point" attacks which are demonstrable and repeatable and were known of and taught even in western boxing all the way up to the 1930's or so.  One of them they taught was real but they admitted was impossible to hit on demand and therefore they taught should be ignored, two of them are now illegal, one of them only works when both grappling and facial contact are allowed (no, it's not the eyes), and one of them is darned hard to get when both wearing gloves and the opponent has a "guard."

But they *are* "real" and *do* "work" with three of them causing instantaneous incapacitation.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 21, 2015)

lklawson said:


> I know of at least 5 "Pressure Point" attacks which are demonstrable and repeatable and were known of and taught even in western boxing all the way up to the 1930's or so.  One of them they taught was real but they admitted was impossible to hit on demand and therefore they taught should be ignored, two of them are now illegal, one of them only works when both grappling and facial contact are allowed (no, it's not the eyes), and one of them is darned hard to get when both wearing gloves and the opponent has a "guard."
> 
> But they *are* "real" and *do* "work" with three of them causing instantaneous incapacitation.
> 
> ...


I know one, but my victim would have to be oiled up, and bare chested. And then, Maybe.


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## lklawson (Dec 21, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I know one, but my victim would have to be oiled up, and bare chested. And then, Maybe.


I document all of them in my book, including giving the historic references from which they are taken.  You don't have to take my word on it, you can look up the references yourself and see if I'm lying (but I'm not).  

Banned from Boxing, The forgotten grappling techniques of classic pugilism, 2nd Edition by Kirk Lawson (Paperback) - Lulu







Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker (Dec 25, 2015)

bogdy23 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Do any of the 2 have techniques that can kill someone but not instantly after a few days or something.You do the technique and then after a period of time something pops in them.Is this true or its just a hollywood myth.
> Thank you



Why would you want such a thing? I'm serious here, by the way… what possible reason would you have for wanting such methods? 

That said… yes, it's largely an inflated Hollywood style myth… based in some realistic methodologies, and exaggerated to semi-ridiculous proportions. Here's the thing… both these terms really refer to the methods of targeting within various systems. That's it, really. The technology of targeting. Where to hit. The results will range from disrupting a nerve, to damaging muscle or organs, to attacking joints and bones, through to causing internal injury leading to death at the extreme (think crushing the windpipe as a gross example). Nothing mystical or magical, simply knowing that if you hit these points, you'll get a particular result.



bogdy23 said:


> Ok so im getting that it dosen`t exist my sensei told me that it does as i keep asking him about 6 dan techniques how do they look like and so on.But he also tends to exagerate probably to keep me intrested in coming to his school.
> So i gues there are only killing kyusho technique that do the job instantly i want to go to an Evan Patanzi seminar as i think kyusho is the coolest thing in martial arts



So I'm going to ask something here… how long have you been training in martial arts, and have you done any before? The reason I ask is that this desire to see high level techniques, the wish for movie fantasy to be real, the impression that what techniques "look like" is really anything close to the important thing is all something found in very beginner (and young) students who have come to the arts from movies… however your profile states that you are 35. I would heartily recommend looking more closely to what you're actually training in, and using that as a more reliable yardstick for future assessments.


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## Finlay (Jan 8, 2016)

Pressure points are one of these things that seem to always be talked about.

I think there are a few that work, but often they are put forward as a way to fight without fighting. 

My feeling on this is that pressure point are used in conjunction with other fighting skills. If you haven't got the ability to close space, create openings, work in the clinch or on the ground the pressure points are only academic or party tricks

As for the delayed death touch, there are ways to rupture bits and pieces or cause internal bleeding that in time would cause death as previously stated. I would be more worried about why someone wants to learn such a thing


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