# Quitting Martial Arts



## lostinseattle (Mar 4, 2007)

So I had a long talk this afternoon with an old friend that I used to train with back in the '80s. He was teaching then and a bit in the early '90s he had a school, but he closed it.

He said that he closed his school because he saw a disturbing trend which was the watering down of martial arts along with a trend towards teaching just for making money, and he said what he found was the students SUPPORTED this watering down because they didn't want to deal with sparring/combat and self defense techniques.

He said new students would come in with their parents and were more interested in forms for tournaments and 'character building' rather than actually learning a martial art for self defense.

In addition, he said they couldn't tell the difference between what he was teaching, which was more self defense oriented, and something that was watered down and didn't have a lot of practical applications.

So rather than trying to advertise and compete with watered down TKD and karate, he quit teaching.

Basically his comments support what I've come across the past 15 years or so which is a gradual watering down of martial arts until it doesn't seem what people are teaching out there is really martial arts anymore, but rather just something really bad.

So that's it. I formally retire from MA. I've had it.


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## terryl965 (Mar 4, 2007)

Ok This makes no sense to me, Martial Arts is a journey for yourself, so what does it matter what other folks are doing if you feel like other are watering down there program train on your own start up atraining club, just because of some other people you quit, what type of response is this from someone that does not like water down program. Stand up and fight to get the word out there to those that want true enlightment, I see it get a little rough and you walk away.

Now for real does it matter what I just said No so why does it bother you about other people your training is for you and there make me feel good training is for them.


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## Phoenix44 (Mar 4, 2007)

People train in the martial arts for all different kinds of reasons: self-defense, fitness, discipline, competition, spirituality, even just to meet people.  If you look hard enough, you find a school with the emphasis you are interested in.

Sorry you're quitting.


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## Kacey (Mar 4, 2007)

I train for myself; I teach because I enjoy it (and I certainly don't make enough money to matter; I teach at a Y).  What you do is your choice; train or not - but don't let other people decide for you.  Each person is an individual, and makes individual choices... or free will has been subsumed by the will of the masses.


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## flashlock (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, quit what you were doing, but you should look at Hock Hockheim, Paul Vunak, and BJJ / Muy Thai if you want to focus on self-defense without 12 year olds doing forms (usually poorly).


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## Blindside (Mar 4, 2007)

Buh-bye.  Maybe at some point you will learn to empty your cup.


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## stickarts (Mar 4, 2007)

I have faced many disappointments and discouraging times over the years. I have found that keeping my own personal connection with the martial arts intact is what has kept me going. Don't let anyone else mess with your personal connection!


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## Lisa (Mar 4, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Basically his comments support what I've come across the past 15 years or so which is a gradual watering down of martial arts until it doesn't seem what people are teaching out there is really martial arts anymore, but rather just something really bad.
> 
> So that's it. I formally retire from MA. I've had it.



This is a sad statement, it truly is.  I am sorry that you have come to this conclusion.  I only wish you would have had the desire to fight against what you see as a trend and work towards fixing the problem you see as opposed to giving in and walking away.



terryl965 said:


> Ok This makes no sense to me, Martial Arts is a journey for yourself, so what does it matter what other folks are doing if you feel like other are watering down there program train on your own start up atraining club, just because of some other people you quit, what type of response is this from someone that does not like water down program. Stand up and fight to get the word out there to those that want true enlightment, I see it get a little rough and you walk away.
> 
> Now for real does it matter what I just said No so why does it bother you about other people your training is for you and there make me feel good training is for them.



Well said.



flashlock said:


> Yes, quit what you were doing, but you should look at Hock Hockheim, Paul Vunak, and BJJ / Muy Thai if you want to focus on self-defense without 12 year olds doing forms (usually poorly).



Now, before we start an arguement as to the whole Art vs. Art thingy, I am going to formally ask that no one goes down that road...please.  We have had enough of that lately on this board and it gets no where except suspensions, Infractions and bad feelings.

As to the comment of 12 year olds doing forms poorly.  Well, they may do them poorly but I would rather have a dozen 12 year olds doing something poorly, working on getting better and perfecting their forms then one adult who gives up and walks away.  Martial Arts is about striving for yourself and working hard and building self esteem.  If a 12 year old does this by coming to class and working his butt off, I am all for it.


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## tellner (Mar 4, 2007)

Figure out what you're interested in. Then look around and find somewhere to learn it. Seattle is chock full of martial arts schools of all sorts. If you can't find what you're looking for in one place it will almost certainly be in another. Some teachers only take adults. Some do combatives. Others are sports oriented. Some specialize in police defensive tactics. Some in cultural traditions.


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## Laurentkd (Mar 4, 2007)

Why would he close his school because there are other schools out there that don't teach what he teaches? Isn't that the perfect reason to stay open? If they aren't teaching the same things then they won't attract the same students, and so aren't competition.  That would be like a ballet school closing because there are lots of tap dance schools around it. Different people are looking for different things, and those people will come to you if you are what they are looking for.  Now I guess if your teaching style doesn't bring in any students and you are forced to close your doors that is another story (I of course have no clue if this was the case or not)  But I don't think surrounding businesses should be the blame for that either.  If he feels (right or wrongly) that the martial arts are becoming watered down I would think he would feel a responsibility to keep his doors open (assuming he has students to teach of course).  Or even teach non-commercially on the side.  Either way I don't see any of this as a reason to quit martial arts.

Maybe there is more to the story or something?


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## grydth (Mar 4, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> So I had a long talk this afternoon with an old friend that I used to train with back in the '80s. He was teaching then and a bit in the early '90s he had a school, but he closed it.
> 
> He said that he closed his school because he saw a disturbing trend which was the watering down of martial arts along with a trend towards teaching just for making money, and he said what he found was the students SUPPORTED this watering down because they didn't want to deal with sparring/combat and self defense techniques.
> 
> ...



Okay, it is not up to me to make life decisions for you; you have every right to do whatsoever you want for any reason - or none at all.

The rationale you've given, however, is very odd. 

It seems you guys are quitting because of the questionable practices of *others' *?  Why does what a mcdojo is doing have any bearing on what you practice or teach? 

It would seem a plague of shallow schools would create a demand for a dojo of substance... and if the economic environment is not conducive to teaching, why would you give up practicing? Are *you* only doing it for the money?

Do what you wish. But you owe it to yourself - not to me or anybody here - to consider this more carefully.


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## Blindside (Mar 4, 2007)

tellner said:


> Figure out what you're interested in. Then look around and find somewhere to learn it. Seattle is chock full of martial arts schools of all sorts. If you can't find what you're looking for in one place it will almost certainly be in another. Some teachers only take adults. Some do combatives. Others are sports oriented. Some specialize in police defensive tactics. Some in cultural traditions.


 
He isn't looking for a teacher, take a look at some of his posts:
http://72.36.239.214/forum/showthread.php?p=734139#post734139


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## Flatlander (Mar 4, 2007)

I can certainly understand making the choice to close a school for economic reasons.  That makes perfect sense.  If teaching isn't a viable way of producing income, then by all means, cut the costs.  However, it seems to me that to quit Martial Arts all together because you're disturbed by this 'watering down' trend only exacerbates the problem.  It certainly doesn't do anything to help the issue, anyway.  Unless, of course, you're one of the ones 'watering things down', which I'll assume that you're not.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 4, 2007)

Sorry you chose that path and I hope you have success and luck with whatever you do.


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## Tames D (Mar 4, 2007)

In life, we do what we gotta do. I choose to do what's right for me regardless of what other's are doing.


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 4, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Buh-bye. Maybe at some point you will learn to empty your cup.


 
Well put. I agree.

AoG


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## IcemanSK (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear that you've chosen not to teach something that, at one point you loved, because other folks who also teach don't do it well. I wonder what would happen if doctors, school teachers & firefighters stopped doing those jobs because of others who didn't do it well. One thing's for sure, the bar wouldn't be set any higher for the next generations. Because there wouldn't be anyone else to show them a better way.

Congratulations. You just have given a victory to anyone who wants to put $$ over the Art & people who were unlucky enough to walk through their doors. And the said part is, they didn't have to do a thing. Cuz, in your town, there's no one else to say anything different.

I get your frustration. Heck, I share it. Kids who's folks spent tons of money for very little walk into my school all the time. They're even from my art! I love the opportunity to teach them better than they were taught before. To set the bar higher & to make their training actually mean something to them. To be honest, I really don't care what Master X down the street teaches. It as no effect on the way I teach my students my art. If he/she is a bad teacher, his students will come see me at some point. 

I wish you the best in your search for a better way.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 5, 2007)

Personal Opinion:  To each his own.  Every person trains for different reasons.  I am glad to see anyone involved in MA no matter what their reasoning.  I don't feel that others affect me though.  
Partially, I feel that instructors should be held responsible for teaching "bad" MA.  But on the other hand, if that is what you are looking for, it is good that there is someone out there willing to help you.


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## Shaderon (Mar 5, 2007)

If you feel so strongly that martial arts is about fighting and self defence why are you giving up? 

You aren't practising self defence or fighting in doing so, you are practising yielding to the opposition.  Do you not have that warrior spirit?  

So others are teaching what you see as wrong or ill informed, if all of us that faced this gave up, then the people that spread the word in a different way to you would just win, there would be no one to speak our side, no one to teach our way.   

If you do give up, make sure you are doing it for the right reasons and not because you are tired of fighting a battle.


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## Drac (Mar 5, 2007)

flashlock said:


> Yes, quit what you were doing, but you should look at Hock Hockheim, Paul Vunak, and BJJ / Muy Thai if you want to focus on self-defense without 12 year olds doing forms (usually poorly).


 
Yes, flashlock is correct about Hock, I have not been privledged to train with Vunak..Attended a Police Judo class put on by Hock..Serious stuff as is ALL his training...


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## MarkBarlow (Mar 5, 2007)

I've been teaching for 27 years and there have been times when I had as few as a dozen students and as many as 85.  The important thing (to me, at least) is that I've always taught what I wanted to teach and what I thought would benefit the students most.  If I worried about trends, fads or retaining students, I sure wouldn't be teaching tradition-based Japanese Jujutsu.  It will never have the popularity of TKD, BJJ or even ninjutsu but I can live with that.  

My Sensei always said that he only taught so that he'd have someone to train with and I've come to see his point.  If I'm teaching to keep students or to make others happy, I'm going to be pressured to modify the curriculum to suit the masses.  I'm willing to continue to be a starving martial arts instructor and stay true to the path I chose a long time ago.  There are enough folks out there who will share my viewpoint that I won't run out of students...I just can't quit my day job.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> If you feel so strongly that martial arts is about fighting and self defence why are you giving up?
> 
> You aren't practising self defence or fighting in doing so, you are practising yielding to the opposition.  Do you not have that warrior spirit?
> 
> ...



It IS because I'm tired of fighting a battle. It's not like this is just a random decision. I've been trying to find a decent place to train for 15 years now, something that was up to the level of my old teacher that quit 15 years ago.

I originally quit his school because I went off to college and it was too hard to keep up lessons. I'd go back on breaks sometimes and for a couple of summers, but I didn't move back to that town.

It's just that MA now is NOTHING ... it's not designed anymore for combat. The military combatives that they used to teach back in WWII, Korea and Vietnam are even watered down now. They teach BJJ and stuff instead.

What I've found is that teachers want to do their thing. They want to make money. They aren't particularly interested in their students or real self defense. They require you to waste a lot of time because it's easier for them.

And the students are also coming in with pre-concieved notions and when somebody like www.wuji.com, a school like this, has a ton of students and everybody thinks he's great, when he's not a martial artist at all, when there's no combat in what he's doing, that just shows how ill informed the students and public are. They have no concept of what they need for self defense.

I don't really want to open a school because it would take a lot of time and trying to have to explain to people and deal with people and be a teacher is not something I'm really up for. And when one of my former teachers says that he doesn't think it's worth it either, and this is the best martial artist I ever met in my life, well that pretty much does it for me.

Sun Tzu said some battles should not be fought. After 15 years of banging my head against a wall I think I've exhausted all avenues, and honestly I'm tired of fighting.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> My Sensei always said that he only taught so that he'd have someone to train with and I've come to see his point.  If I'm teaching to keep students or to make others happy, I'm going to be pressured to modify the curriculum to suit the masses.  I'm willing to continue to be a starving martial arts instructor and stay true to the path I chose a long time ago.  There are enough folks out there who will share my viewpoint that I won't run out of students...I just can't quit my day job.



Honestly, I don't think I'd be up for teaching, and given the people around here, it would definitely be a fight ... there would be a lot of political fighting, fights about lineage, fights about pretty much everything.

I probably should have quit 15 years ago.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 5, 2007)

Lostinseattle how far away are you from 
Dan Anderson www.danandersonkarate.com

or Kelly Worden http://www.kellyworden.com/

Even if you are only close enough to go twice a month
maybe you should check these two guy's out before you
quit.  Good luck.


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## zDom (Mar 5, 2007)

One of the things I've found myself saying over and over again during the last several years is,

"You find what you look for."

If you are looking for a reason to quit, you will find plenty.

If you are looking for a way to continue your martial arts journey, you will find it.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Honestly, I don't think I'd be up for teaching, and given the people around here, it would definitely be a fight ... there would be a lot of political fighting, fights about lineage, fights about pretty much everything.
> 
> I probably should have quit 15 years ago.


 
Honestly, sounds like you haven't been trying hard enough. Practicing solid combat focused martial arts is very easy to do if you approach it logically. Hell even if you can't find realistic stuff where you live, you just alter your own training methods.
Myself and a buddy do it all the time in our aikido class to suit it more to our needs.
If you want martial arts done properly, then do it properly. What other people do has no relevance on that.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Lostinseattle how far away are you from
> Dan Anderson www.danandersonkarate.com
> 
> or Kelly Worden http://www.kellyworden.com/
> ...



I'm close to Kelly Worden but none of what these guys are doing looks very interesting. I mean, wing chun dummy? That's so 30 years ago.

I think the problem is, like the local Kenpo guy said, I got spoiled with my teacher from 15 years ago. Everybody since looks like granola.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2007)

Seems kind of like quitting competitive swimming because most people put there kids into a program with a emphasis on water safety, and first aid, rather then really teaching them how to swim.

Or quitting Hockey because to many people are now playing roller hockey, everyone is wearing helmets and the younger leagues banned body checking.

Doesn't matter what everyone else is doing, there will always be a range of things getting done.  If you want hard training, there will be a place to get it.

This isn't a watering down, its a growing up.  As more people get interested in aquiring basic skills, they begin to outnumber those that are more commited, and want to bang a little harder.  

Tae Bo is not watered down Muay Thai, it is a different activity, targeting a different group.  The people doing Tae Bo are not likely to have even signed up for a Muay Thai class, and certainely never would fight.  Doesn't effect Muay Thai one bit, nor do all the other schools that cater to non-hardcore-blood-sweat-and-guts martial artists.


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## Brian King (Mar 5, 2007)

"I probably should have quit 15 years ago."

LOL sounds like you did and are just now admitting it.



> Originally Posted by *Blindside*
> 
> 
> _Buh-bye. Maybe at some point you will learn to empty your cup._


 

agreed!
buh-bye and good luck

Brian


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2007)

Okay, let's look at the site you illustrate as to supposedly what's wrong with the martial arts....... its an internal arts site.

Let's fact it..... I see Tai Chi as a martial art, but not everyone does...... and what difference? Why get stressed because people differ with me?

How does it affect me *at all* if one group with their teacher is doing Tai Chi as a weight/stress reduction...... another group of old folks is doing it for arthritis relief or defense against falls...... over there is an exercise group..... out that way are some elder hippies communing ?  

So what if the teacher has 100 students - or 1000? So what if he becomes a millionaire?

This is their path in life.... why should I get an ulcer or a depression over it? Or quit what I am doing? 

As long as it is not an outright fraud I wish them, students and teachers, all well. Many are getting from the art just what they are looking for... isn't this a good thing? 

I do not understand why a dedicated martial artist - whose strength flows from within - should be so affected by the doings those from without.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> So I had a long talk this afternoon with an old friend that I used to train with back in the '80s. He was teaching then and a bit in the early '90s he had a school, but he closed it.
> 
> He said that he closed his school because he saw a disturbing trend which was the watering down of martial arts along with a trend towards teaching just for making money, and he said what he found was the students SUPPORTED this watering down because they didn't want to deal with sparring/combat and self defense techniques.
> 
> ...


 
I have been here before, I was with Taiji about a year ago, and I had felt that way for 2 years prior, and after 12 years of training I pretty much quit. But after much thought, much posting and much complaining it came to me&#8230;. I can complain or I can train&#8230;. so I trained. If I do teach again it is likely I will have fewer students that many other Taiji schools because, as I have been told, I am to hard a teacher and I expect too much from students

There are tons and tons of people out there looking at martial arts for many different reasons and the only thing that really matters is why YOU train and what YOU want to get out of it. 

There was a very good TKD teacher in my area a few years back and he had a very small school. Then one day a couple of his students got together and started their own school (without his permission) and they took off. They have the biggest TKD schools I have ever seen teaching a WHOLE lot of people and none of them are any good. 

The original teacher with the small school let the bastards win; he closed up shop and left the area. So now we have lost a very good TKD school he has long since been forgotten by most and the other schools are still going strong producing more and more bad students. 

Quitting is NOT the answer and you will hopefully figure that out on your own before you walk away and if you are truly concerned about the state of TKD I can tell you that you will figure it out after you walk away form it. 

So you have to decide if you are going to let the BS teachers out there win or are you going to fight back. 

You quit the ones watering it down will still be there training others to water it down even more. You stay and teach just one the true art and instill in that one a love for that art&#8230;. you win

It&#8217;s your call&#8230;.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> The original teacher with the small school let the bastards win; he closed up shop and left the area. So now we have lost a very good TKD school he has long since been forgotten by most and the other schools are still going strong producing more and more bad students.
> 
> You quit the ones watering it down will still be there training others to water it down even more. You stay and teach just one the true art and instill in that one a love for that art&#8230;. you win



You know, I was talking about that with this teacher as well about 'the art'. He taught what he learned in the military, on the street and from various teachers.

His training started out with plain street fighting, then military combatives, then he came back from the war and trained with a friend of his from the military who had picked up a Chinese system in Korea. They reworked the military combatives making them more efficient and lethal together.

Then, he reworked it some more adding in a lot of Bruce Lee's stuff, and then added in Chow Li Fut and taiji.

At that point, and that's when I studied with him, he was working on a lot of multiple attacker stuff. He'd invite a lot of different people to come and spar, people from boxing, different martial arts, whatever. He also loved going to tournaments and especially liked faking people out and then sweeping their legs out.

He was the best I ever met. Nobody around here is anywhere even 1/3 as good as he was when I studied with him. The people around here they say are so great like the JKD people, or Dave Harris or anybody aren't anywhere near the same level.

Now he's having fun playing with his grand-kids and has a small vineyard.

To build up a school and introduce all that stuff into it, and get people working on that stuff, is just going to be too difficult. I'm not interested in doing it, not with the commutes, people's attitudes around here and all of that.

Anyway I don't expect anyone will agree with my decision, but I think I should have done it a long time ago.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Brian said:


> "I probably should have quit 15 years ago."
> 
> LOL sounds like you did and are just now admitting it.
> 
> ...



No, I didn't quit. I spent 15 years looking for somebody as good as this teacher, and never found it. After talking to him after so many years, it's pretty obvious why I didn't find it. I didn't realize he was probably one of a kind.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> No, I didn't quit. I spent 15 years looking for somebody as good as this teacher, and never found it. After talking to him after so many years, it's pretty obvious why I didn't find it. I didn't realize he was probably one of a kind.


 

Not likely. Good martial arts training= very easy to do.
If you're willing to make an effort.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Not likely. Good martial arts training= very easy to do.
> If you're willing to make an effort.



Not really. At least around here to get training partners you have to talk for hours, deal with people's egos, everybody thinks they're the best ... it always turns into social hour. It's very hard to get any real training in.

And every school wants you to do THEIR thing, which means that until you get to spar multiples, if at all, you have to do their basics, most of which are done wrong (weak bones of the wrist outwards, stances too high, teaching 'blocks' (which aren't really blocks at all)).

Bottom line is 99% or more of the stuff out there is just bad. Sorry to say it, but things have been watered down now where most all that's left is pretty much beer ... not hard alcohol and definitely not moonshine.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Not really. At least around here to get training partners you have to talk for hours, deal with people's egos, everybody thinks they're the best ... it always turns into social hour. It's very hard to get any real training in.
> 
> And every school wants you to do THEIR thing, which means that until you get to spar multiples, if at all, you have to do their basics, most of which are done wrong (weak bones of the wrist outwards, stances too high, teaching 'blocks' (which aren't really blocks at all)).
> 
> Bottom line is 99% or more of the stuff out there is just bad. Sorry to say it, but things have been watered down now where most all that's left is pretty much beer ... not hard alcohol and definitely not moonshine.


 
What you're basically saying is you want to start up in someone elses system, but not have to actually learn their system?


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Not really. At least around here to get training partners you have to talk for hours, deal with people's egos, everybody thinks they're the best ... it always turns into social hour. It's very hard to get any real training in.
> 
> And every school wants you to do THEIR thing, which means that until you get to spar multiples, if at all, you have to do their basics, most of which are done wrong (weak bones of the wrist outwards, stances too high, teaching 'blocks' (which aren't really blocks at all)).
> 
> Bottom line is 99% or more of the stuff out there is just bad. Sorry to say it, but things have been watered down now where most all that's left is pretty much beer ... not hard alcohol and definitely not moonshine.


 

Sorry I know for a fact there are some great MA schools in your area, let me ask you this. What type of training do you want I know of school that you will need help getting to your car after each practice and then I know some that will push you but not let you break?

I was also wondering why you would not be able to find someone witht he same desire you have in such a big place, maybe just maybe you do not want to train anymore and this is the easier way out for you putting the blame on other people.

Now before you go and get all mad  as hell remember I said maybe, look deep down inside and let me know and I will point you in the right direction.
Talk to you later


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## grydth (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> No, I didn't quit. I spent 15 years looking for somebody as good as this teacher, and never found it. After talking to him after so many years, it's pretty obvious why I didn't find it. I didn't realize he was probably one of a kind.



From my experience in dealing with suicidl people, I do not think you want to quit. If somebody wants to quit practicing MA or quit living, it is as easy as snuffing out a candle. 

Most people do not want to die, and remain rational enough do perform acts we call cries for help. I think that is what you are doing here, and if so that is a good thing. Now you just have to listen......

Any human endeavor will present you with charlatans, fakes, weaklings and elixer salesmen. Any class will present you with poor students, egomaniacs, those looking for a ticket punch. There are also good schools and good friends waiting to be made.

By your rationale, the Apostles would've quit when Christ was gone. Follow their example - or that of your revered teacher.


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## Brandon Fisher (Mar 5, 2007)

I am sorry but this is why martial arts are getting watered down, people either give in to it or they out right quit.  You quitting doesn't help the situation at all.


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## MarkBarlow (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> No, I didn't quit. I spent 15 years looking for somebody as good as this teacher, and never found it. After talking to him after so many years, it's pretty obvious why I didn't find it. I didn't realize he was probably one of a kind.



I feel the same way about my Sensei and I trained with him for 20 years.  When he died it left a huge hole in both my training and my life.  However, it wouldn't have shown him much respect to pack things up and go home.  I teach the techniques he taught me (and the techniques that were taught to him by his sensei, etc...) and it gives me comfort and pleasure to think of that unbroken line.

Much of what you're saying in contradictory.  You don't like what's happened to martial arts but you feel free to say that a traditional training aid like the wooden dummy is archaic.  It seems to me that you've got a script you want everyone to follow.  Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way.  If you were truly serious about training, you'd find someone of a similar mindset.  As someone else pointed out, if you stand on the doorstep and yell that no one is worth your time, no one is going to rush up and prove you wrong.

It saddens me to hear someone say that they've quit training because martial arts aren't as good as they used to be.  Martial arts are made up of martial artists.  If things aren't what you want them to be, change them or lose the right to complain.  An individual's martial arts in a pretty small world.  You can't focus on your own training if you're worried that the McDojo down the street is "cheapening' all the martial arts.  Just do the best you can to see that "your" dojo keeps training the way it should.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> Much of what you're saying in contradictory.  You don't like what's happened to martial arts but you feel free to say that a traditional training aid like the wooden dummy is archaic.



Wing Chun isn't actually a martial arts system. It's just a piece of a larger system. That's one of the common misconceptions about wing chun. 

The Wing Chun dummy was never designed to be a comprehensive dummy form. If you look at the CLF dummies you will realize that Wing Chun dummy is extremely limited.



> It saddens me to hear someone say that they've quit training because martial arts aren't as good as they used to be.  Martial arts are made up of martial artists.  If things aren't what you want them to be, change them or lose the right to complain.



I'm not complaining. It is a logical progression that MA should be watered down because since the gun and the tank and the invention of modern weapons, hand to hand fighting has become less and less relevant.

Why do you think the military trains guns and tanks and planes and other advanced weapons systems and spends less time on hand to hand combat? It's because they're smart ... you're not going to beat an army that has guns with hand to hand combat.

Anyway, thanks for talking about this, and sorry for venting on a public forum. I guess nobody else thinks the same thing about this.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2007)

It sounds like you have a very set way of thinking when it comes to what you feel martial arts should be, and are unwilling to accept much outside of that.

As for military, well, no one has ever charged onto a battlefield to fight without a weapon, ever.  Weapons have been in use since we started having wars.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> It sounds like you have a very set way of thinking when it comes to what you feel martial arts should be, and are unwilling to accept much outside of that.
> 
> As for military, well, no one has ever charged onto a battlefield to fight without a weapon, ever.  Weapons have been in use since we started having wars.



Does the military train spear, bow, sword, crossbow and all that anymore? No, not really, right? That's what I mean, hand to hand combat isn't as relevant anymore. So they don't spend much time on it anymore.

Anyways, I'm through. Thanks for the conversation, and once again, sorry for venting on a public forum.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

grydth said:


> By your rationale, the Apostles would've quit when Christ was gone. Follow their example - or that of your revered teacher.



I am following the example of my martial arts teacher. He quit. I'm quitting. I was venting, is all, yes it is a bit frustrating. I'm sorry for venting.


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## Marginal (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Basically his comments support what I've come across the past 15 years or so which is a gradual watering down of martial arts until it doesn't seem what people are teaching out there is really martial arts anymore, but rather just something really bad.
> 
> So that's it. I formally retire from MA. I've had it.


 
Given how long similar comments have been voiced, about 5,000 years ago Martial artists must've all been unsurpassable gods.


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## Brandon Fisher (Mar 5, 2007)

Open your heart and your mind and you might find something.  But until you do that you won't and its better not to waste your time.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Open your heart and your mind and you might find something.  But until you do that you won't and its better not to waste your time.



See, that's what I'm against.

Everybody says, "Open your mind." "Be open." "Be accepting." "Join our school."

But what they do sucks. Instead of listening to the customer and change it a little bit, they try to enforce their will upon others. Instead of listening, "What is this guy saying?" They want everything done their way.

You realize it is a fallacious argument you're using, right? You're basically saying there is something wrong with me because I don't want to train the way these other people are training.

That's 100% of the reason I'm quitting. It's not that the training is substandard. It's not that the teachers are limited. It's because everybody thinks they're right and wants to impose their will upon others, instead of listening to others and making some concessions.

I've been perfectly willing to make concessions. I've been willing to put up with a ton of stuff from teachers. I've been willing to go 50-50 with training partners. Even 85% of their stuff and only 15% of my techniques.

I've been perfectly open to substandard training, even taking MMA. But the problem is that people really aren't willing to do 50-50. They really aren't willing to go 85-15. They want it 100% their way or the highway. They just want to get more students for their school, their way, their training. They don't care what anyone else thinks.

No teacher of MA wants somebody to get tired and quit. They want people to bow down to them and do it their way. Join their school. More monthly payments, more $, more prestige for them.

So they only leave one option.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Does the military train spear, bow, sword, crossbow and all that anymore? No, not really, right? That's what I mean, hand to hand combat isn't as relevant anymore. So they don't spend much time on it anymore.
> 
> Anyways, I'm through. Thanks for the conversation, and once again, sorry for venting on a public forum.


 
Actually UNARMED combat has never really been a major focus of any military anyway, its just not an efficient use of resources.
And since most martial arts is unarmed focused, there's no point whatsoever trying to establish a correlation between the two.
Personally I feel that whyile yes there is alot of crap out there, martial arts is currenlty at one of its highest points for being able to do solid combat based training.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> I've been perfectly open to substandard training, even taking MMA.


 
Well if thats your attitude it certainly explains an awful lot....


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> See, that's what I'm against.
> 
> Everybody says, "Open your mind." "Be open." "Be accepting." "Join our school."
> 
> ...


 
Well I will tell you what come to Texas and see me I will train you for free and lets see if you can make it though the first week without complaining about every little freaking thing, all you have done in this entire thread is be little every single person suddestion and talk about you want real training please if you live in America you getalmost real training nobody take a kendo stick to the back of there student legs nobody makes you kick a palm tree until you cannot stand, and nobody really wants to hear you cry all the time. You said you wa done with this thread but you keep coming back to put down the members here come on dude get a grip on life and suck it up and find a place to train even if that is a spare bedroom by yourself doing your own thing maybe we will read about you and your new style and everybody can do it your way.

Peace :asian:


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Peace :asian:



Once again, none of you are getting it. The only person that got it was on the other thread, exile I think his name was.

Oh, well. Thanks for the comments.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Once again, none of you are getting it. The only person that got it was on the other thread, exile I think his name was.
> 
> Oh, well. Thanks for the comments.


 
You're basically saying that everything around is crap, you don't want to do it. We're disputing the fact that everything is crap. Whether or not you want to do it is still up to you.


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## MarkBarlow (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Once again, none of you are getting it. The only person that got it was on the other thread, exile I think his name was.
> 
> Oh, well. Thanks for the comments.



How's this?  You don't really want input.  You just wanted to vent.  We're not going to tell you anything new or (in your view) worthwhile.  We should have just let you rant and not replied.

O.K.  No problem.  

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Anyway I don't expect anyone will agree with my decision, but I think I should have done it a long time ago.


 
You really don't need anyone to agree, it is after all your call. Only you know what is best for you.

1 question, why start a school, could it be possible to find someone to train with or to train, just one person.

My Sanda Sifu trains only people he trusts won't abuse what he teaches, he has no school really. My Taiji Sifu teaches at a local community center he also has no school. 

Just some thoughts

I truly wish you my best :asian:
XS


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> How's this?  You don't really want input.  You just wanted to vent.  We're not going to tell you anything new or (in your view) worthwhile.  We should have just let you rant and not replied.
> 
> O.K.  No problem.
> 
> Good luck with whatever you decide to do.



Honestly, I wanted somebody to talk about how watered down MA has become, and what they do to combat it in their school, and training methodologies for open training.

Instead, most everybody says don't quit, your cup is too full, go to this class, etc. The standard answers that sidestep the entire question.

So before you accuse somebody of not wanting replies, perhaps you should address the actual question. Anyways, I am totally through now. With this board as well.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Honestly, I wanted somebody to talk about how watered down MA has become, and what they do to combat it in their school, and training methodologies for open training.
> 
> Instead, most everybody says don't quit, your cup is too full, go to this class, etc. The standard answers that sidestep the entire question.
> 
> So before you accuse somebody of not wanting replies, perhaps you should address the actual question. Anyways, I am totally through now. With this board as well.


 
And?
There's been plenty of discussions regarding on the board about useful training methods and ways to improve combat training. Most people here would probably rather take steps to improve their own training, than give out about others.


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## rutherford (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Once again, none of you are getting it.



That's because every one of us would keep going.  At the very least, if I were you I'd ask my old instructor to meet up at his house a couple nights a week / month.

But, I'm not you.  I have a list of places I'd like to train in Washington, and I live on the other side of the country.


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## Flatlander (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Once again, none of you are getting it.


Well, here's what I'm reading from you:

- There is a way that you want to train, but you're (so far) unable to find a school that fits with your desired training ideology.

- Because you perceive a large scale 'watering down' of martial arts training, there's just no point in trying to buck the trend.

- Your efforts to find another school have shown you that nobody else within your search parameters has value to add to what you're doing.

- You want other schools to take you in so that you can teach them, but are unwilling to learn other systems, and unwilling to open your own school.

However, I'll admit that I may be reading you wrong, because I see a great deal of contradiction in your own statements.



> That's 100% of the reason I'm quitting. It's not that the training is substandard. It's not that the teachers are limited. _It's because everybody thinks they're right and wants to impose their will upon others, instead of listening to others and making some concessions._


I think you should read your own words here, specifically the italicized bit, then compare that to some of your other posts in this thread.

Before you exit the thread for good, I have a question that doesn't seem to have been asked of you as of yet:  What is it specifically that you seek in your training?

I ask because it seems to me that you simply don't want to train any more, which is fine.  But it does appear as though you are manufacturing unreasonable excuses for quitting, rather than simply admitting to yourself that you're simply not interested in learning any more.   Again, there's nothing wrong with making that admission, each should feel free to follow their own path.  Having said that, I don't believe that you're being entirely honest with yourself, or the rest of us.  And I'm not suggesting that you're doing so purposefully, I'm quite sure that misleading yourself, or others, is not your intent.  

I am simply suggesting that (to echo the various other posters in this thread) if there is something in particular that you're seeking, you're certain to find it if you apply the appropriate effort to your search.

For example, you have alluded to the irrelevancy of hand to hand combat training in the modern age.  I see no problem with holding that opinion.  However, the irrelevancy of hand to hand combat in the modern age is not the reason that you gave for quitting.  You specifically said that your concern was the watering down of the arts.

Also, to make the following statement: 





> The military combatives that they used to teach back in WWII, Korea and Vietnam are even watered down now. They teach BJJ and stuff instead.


is completely asinine.  The military H2H systems are constantly evolving and improving based upon an ever increasing body of knowledge and experience.  I'm going to go ahead and guess that you haven't any military experience.  Neither do I, by the way, but I've done a great deal of research, rolled with a few, trained under the people who have trained military folk (Kelly Worden, the one you referred to as "granola" - "wing chun dummies are so '80's", etc.)  I think it's revealing that you're quick to judge what others are doing without making the effort to actually investigate and do a little due diligence.

In fact, the more I analyze this thread, the more I'm becoming convinced that you're simply unmotivated to actually learn the martial arts at any deeper level that what you've achieved thus far.  Again, there's nothing wrong with that.  I just think that your justifications are unreasonable.  Which is to say, your finger is pointing in the wrong direction.


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## MarkBarlow (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Honestly, I wanted somebody to talk about how watered down MA has become, and what they do to combat it in their school, and training methodologies for open training.
> 
> Instead, most everybody says don't quit, your cup is too full, go to this class, etc. The standard answers that sidestep the entire question.
> 
> So before you accuse somebody of not wanting replies, perhaps you should address the actual question. Anyways, I am totally through now. With this board as well.



I wasn't trying to be argumentative and certainly wasn't accusing you of anything.  Again, it seems you've got a script and none of us got our copy so we're not feeding you the lines you'd like.

Bottom line, I truly hope you find the vehicle that puts you where you want to be.  Sincerely, I feel for you and can see where it's easy to be depressed when looking at the state of most dojo/dojang/kwoon.  I made the decision years ago to keep swingin' and at least I can feel good about the effort my students and other instructors make.


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## Flatlander (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Honestly, I wanted somebody to talk about how watered down MA has become, and what they do to combat it in their school, and training methodologies for open training.
> 
> Instead, most everybody says don't quit, your cup is too full, go to this class, etc. The standard answers that sidestep the entire question.
> 
> So before you accuse somebody of not wanting replies, perhaps you should address the actual question. Anyways, I am totally through now. With this board as well.


:lol2:  Well, for crying out loud, you're the one that titled the thread "Quitting Martial Arts" and proceeded to explain how you were quitting.  What did you expect?  I'd suggest titling the thread "Martial Arts:  Too watered down?"  See, the rule on the board is that we stick to the topic of the original post, lest we get reprimanded for being off topic.  So, don't cry when people respond to what you've posted yourself.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Once again, none of you are getting it.



No, we do.  We make our training as we see fit.  If we want to train hard, we do. Martial arts haven't been watered down, they've just spread out.  More people are training now, for more reasons.  

We don't complain about that fact, it really doesn't effect our training at all.  Our training is as we want it, because it is our training.  It doesn't bother us that Tae Bo practitioners are not fighters, that they just use "martial arts" as a fitness routine to get into shape.  It doesn't bother us that some schools have after school programs that teach a very basic martial arts program and focus more on games and homework, they are getting some excercise and hopefully having more fun then they would in a daycare.

We train as we please.  If you can't train hard anymore, the problem is not everyone else, because they don't effect your training.  There are more then enough people training at all levels and styles that everyone can find what they are looking for.

Unless, of course, you are looking for "something exactly like what my instructor taught, taught by a guy exactly like my instructor"

Try something new, do your own thing or don't do anything.  But trying to start your own little "They've all gone soft" pity party isn't going to go over well here, because we all train, we all enjoy our training, and not all of us train in a watered down system.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2007)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

*_*Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-*


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## Kacey (Mar 5, 2007)

Flatlander said:


> :lol2:  Well, for crying out loud, you're the one that titled the thread "Quitting Martial Arts" and proceeded to explain how you were quitting.  What did you expect?  I'd suggest titling the thread "Martial Arts:  Too watered down?"  See, the rule on the board is that we stick to the topic of the original post, lest we get reprimanded for being off topic.



This is pretty much what I was going to say.  If you want to discuss the watering down of MAs, then please, post a thread about that topic - but please don't tell us we're not getting it because we responded to the topic you posted, instead of the topic you meant.  We're martial artists - not mind-readers.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 5, 2007)

Lost in Seattle you will never find *anyone else* who teaches exactly like your old instructor.  That is just a fact as they are not that person.  However if you really look hard you might find exactly what you are looking for right in your area.  Your just going to have to look and look and look and probably look some more.  I find it hard to believe that there is
not one* old school practitioner/teacher* in your area.  However, they 
may not advertise at all.  So good luck.


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## Blindside (Mar 5, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I find it hard to believe that there is not one* old school practitioner/teacher* in your area. However, they may not advertise at all. So good luck.


 
Lets face it, you were just silly to recommend some no-name who teaches watered down martial arts like Kelly Worden.






.... where is that sarcasm emoticon? Oh here they are....


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 5, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Lets face it, you were just silly to recommend some no-name who teaches watered down martial arts like Kelly Worden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Personally I do not know what I was thinking!


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## jks9199 (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Not really. At least around here to get training partners you have to talk for hours, deal with people's egos, everybody thinks they're the best ... it always turns into social hour. It's very hard to get any real training in.
> 
> And every school wants you to do THEIR thing, which means that until you get to spar multiples, if at all, you have to do their basics, most of which are done wrong (weak bones of the wrist outwards, stances too high, teaching 'blocks' (which aren't really blocks at all)).
> 
> Bottom line is 99% or more of the stuff out there is just bad. Sorry to say it, but things have been watered down now where most all that's left is pretty much beer ... not hard alcohol and definitely not moonshine.


This sounds like you're getting into a rehash of your previous thread about finding a school.

You want something very particular, and you know what you want.  You're not willing to listen to anyone's advice that doesn't support exactly what you want to hear.  

I once pointed out a problem to a manager.  He looked at me, and said "You're right... Go fix it."  (I know this isn't an original experience, either!)  There might be a lesson in there for you.

You want a place where you can walk in the door, be immediately handed a partner to practice applications on without even showing that you know the basic forms.  Sounds like you want something like a boxing gym on steroids; a place like the dojo that Duncan MacLeod buys in the Highlander TV series.  I'm sure that there are places like that around; I'm also sure that they're pretty few and far between, for lots of reasons.  But you know what?  I know exactly how you can find one.  Open one yourself.

You've got a black belt.  You've trained for at least 15 years, by your statements, in various arts.  You want a place to work out your way... You'll have to make it.

Whatever your choice -- I wish you luck, success, and happiness.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Honestly, I wanted somebody to talk about how watered down MA has become, and what they do to combat it in their school, and training methodologies for open training.


 
I like many others was responding to your post of "Quitting Martial Arts Not do you feel it is watered down. 

But on the point of being watered down I agree it has become watered down in many cases. Let me rephrase my previous statement you can accept it and let if go and assist in the watering down by giving up or fight it and go train and train hard. So the guy next door has his Black belt in TKD light... so what.... as long as YOU are true to your chosen art everything is just fine and that is all you can do about it... just take car of you. 

I have seen a whole lot of watered down MA schools and charlatans... Just look at some of my rants here on MT - Taiji in 3 minutes comes to mind..... I currently have 3 Sifu's however and none are watering down a thing and none have hugely successful schools, meaning do not have lots-o-students. 

Taiji - It is hard to combat this problem, to many inundating it that want peace and tranquility new agers. However a couple of my Sifu's students and I now get together after class and do more apps and push hands and our Sifu is staying to teach us more.

Xingyi - my Xingyi Sifu is a certified hard-hitting DO THOSE APPLICATIONS fighter, not uncommon for Xingyi, This is why it is not as popular as other internal styles. Its not pretty, the training is hard and you get locked hit and hurt. I got the living daylights beaten out of me 2 classes ago and it was absolutely great. 

Sanda - is ALL about fighting you train to hit and hit hard you get joint locked and thrown to the ground and if and when you spar you get hit and hit hard. To any who may read this later - If you want MA light DON'T train sanda. 

So reality is still out there, it is just sometimes hard to find.


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## IcemanSK (Mar 5, 2007)

Dear "Lost" 

I once trained with a guy who trained many World Champion full contact rules kickboxing fighters (see my sig. It's a quote from him). He took me on as a student. I never made it to the level of the champions I trained with. He developed a brain tumor & died at the age of 42. I thought I'd never train in that style of fighting again. The other schools in the area were not the same caliber at all. So, I switched to boxing & my 1st art again. It was fun, but hardly the same. A few years later, I decided to take a class somewhere for fun. The guy teaching the class was very intimidated when he found out where I trained. He asked me to co-teach the class with him. I did & we had a blast. I got the fever for that kind of program, again. When I moved across the country, I went back to my first art (Taekwondo) & opened up a school named after my trainer (Superkick Taekwondo). Is it the same? Nope, it's my thing. Why? Because Kevin died, but I'm still here. I will never find another trainer like him. But I've got 30 students who love what I'm teaching them. It's good solid Taekwondo. 

At some point, you've got to be the person you once looked up to. If all you do is look back at what was, you're missing the whole intent of what your teacher was trying to get across to you. That what you learned from him was worth sharing & doing for the rest of your life: regardless of what the folks down the street teach.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> At some point, you've got to be the person you once looked up to. If all you do is look back at what was, you're missing the whole intent of what your teacher was trying to get across to you. That what you learned from him was worth sharing & doing for the rest of your life: regardless of what the folks down the street teach.



You know what? Honestly there is something that my teacher had that I was lacking. We talked about this too. He said I never really got it.

It's something called Patience. I don't think I really have patience. Don't you think that there's a difference between putting up with something for a while, even years, and being able to work with people and teach them, even given their limitations and egos and foibles?

This is something that I just don't think I could ever get. I never could work with people and try to explain them something, and do it over and over, day after day, and deal with their egos and excuses and all of that.

When we used to spar and somebody wouldn't get a concept in class, like if they left gaps in their defenses, I'd just hit them a few times so they understood the weakness. I never could sit down and guide them through stuff.

Honestly I don't think I have the patience to be a teacher. Otherwise I'd open a school tomorrow.

Not everybody is cut out to be a teacher, and I've had enough bad teachers to not try to be one myself.

Plus, it really seems that being a martial arts teacher is the path to hell, so to speak. Because the instant that you become a martial arts teacher for money, it seems like the training gets started to be watered down, and the rates go up. Soon you're looking to get as much money out of your students as possible while giving them as little training as possible.

It just seems inevitable. IMHO most martial arts teachers are nothing but con-men. Sad to sad it, but that's what they are. Snake oil salesmen. Tell everybody they'll be able to defend themselves when in all actuality most people who go to MA won't be able to because the training is too weak.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I like many others was responding to your post of "Quitting Martial Arts&#8221; Not do you feel it is watered down.
> 
> But on the point of being watered down I agree it has become watered down in many cases. Let me rephrase my previous statement you can accept it and let if go and assist in the watering down by giving up or fight it and go train and train hard. So the guy next door has his Black belt in TKD light... so what.... as long as YOU are true to your chosen art everything is just fine and that is all you can do about it... just take car of you.
> 
> I have seen a whole lot of watered down MA schools and charlatans... Just look at some of my rants here on MT - Taiji in 3 minutes comes to mind..... I currently have 3 Sifu's however and none are watering down a thing and none have hugely successful schools, meaning do not have lots-o-students.



So they all teach hard combat, they go hard on you and train for real fighting? If so, then it's not Seattle, that's for sure.




> Xingyi - my Xingyi Sifu is a certified hard-hitting DO THOSE APPLICATIONS fighter, not uncommon for Xingyi, This is why it is not as popular as other internal styles. Its not pretty, the training is hard and you get locked hit and hurt. I got the living daylights beaten out of me 2 classes ago and it was absolutely great.
> 
> Sanda - is ALL about fighting you train to hit and hit hard you get joint locked and thrown to the ground and if and when you spar you get hit and hit hard. To any who may read this later - If you want MA light DON'T train sanda.
> 
> So reality is still out there, it is just sometimes hard to find.


There's no Sanda that I've found or Xingyi in Washington. Sanda is watered down martial arts as well. They don't allow a lot of techniques because they used to kill people with those techniques.

For xingyi, there is Jake but he's only got 11 years experience in like 5 different martial arts and mostly as a distance student, which is why I don't go work with him. There's also the 'Yiliquan' people but they do who knows what.  A mixture of things ... and only 1 step drills.

But anyway, yeah, I'm done. I've had it. The guy teaching off of videos was the last straw. If people want to start 'Superfoot's TKD' then by all means, go for it, but I'd rather choke on a canoli than become a martial arts prostitute (er teacher).


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Personally I do not know what I was thinking!



Look at the guy ... he teaches with a plastic dummy. He doesn't even use a wooden dummy. Anyways, I give up.


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## rutherford (Mar 5, 2007)

Lost, I think this is perhaps the finest piece of internet forum trolling I've ever seen.

Kudos.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

rutherford said:


> Lost, I think this is perhaps the finest piece of internet forum trolling I've ever seen.
> 
> Kudos.



It's not trolling. Do you even know the purpose of the wooden dummy?

Bottom line is you have people saying martial arts aren't watered down. Take TKD. TKD is essentially watered down Shotokan. The creator of TKD was a Shotokan black belt. Shotokan is watered down Okinawan martial arts.

And then they further watered down TKD in a lot of places by giving it an Olympic point fighting strategy.

Most of you given your profiles have nothing to gain by admitting that you practice or teach a watered down martial art, so of course you're going to get upset over any topic like this. It's pretty obvious given your responses you don't want anybody thinking anything of the sort or quitting because then you'll lose students.


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## Kacey (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> You know what? Honestly there is something that my teacher had that I was lacking. We talked about this too. He said I never really got it.
> 
> It's something called Patience. I don't think I really have patience. Don't you think that there's a difference between putting up with something for a while, even years, and being able to work with people and teach them, even given their limitations and egos and foibles?
> 
> This is something that I just don't think I could ever get. I never could work with people and try to explain them something, and do it over and over, day after day, and deal with their egos and excuses and all of that.



And yet, you claim, in another post, to be a salesperson... how do you sell things if you have no patience with your customers?  And if you have patience for them, why can't you transfer it to instructing an MA?



lostinseattle said:


> When we used to spar and somebody wouldn't get a concept in class, like if they left gaps in their defenses, I'd just hit them a few times so they understood the weakness. I never could sit down and guide them through stuff.



So... what?  You beat the crap out of them because you didn't have the patience to teach them what someone else took the time to teach you?



lostinseattle said:


> Honestly I don't think I have the patience to be a teacher. Otherwise I'd open a school tomorrow.
> 
> Not everybody is cut out to be a teacher, and I've had enough bad teachers to not try to be one myself.



You've had bad teachers, you know why you think they were bad teachers, and you have that little faith in yourself, that you're not even willing to make the attempt?  I've been taking TKD for 20 years, and teaching it for 15, first as an assistant instructor and then as instructor, and I _still_ learn as much from my students as I do from my instructor - different things, yes, but equally valid and equally important.  Instead of telling yourself you _can't_, and making it a self-fulfilling prophecy, perhaps you should _try _and see, instead of excusing yourself.



lostinseattle said:


> Plus, it really seems that being a martial arts teacher is the path to hell, so to speak. Because the instant that you become a martial arts teacher for money, it seems like the training gets started to be watered down, and the rates go up. Soon you're looking to get as much money out of your students as possible while giving them as little training as possible.
> 
> It just seems inevitable. IMHO most martial arts teachers are nothing but con-men. Sad to sad it, but that's what they are. Snake oil salesmen. Tell everybody they'll be able to defend themselves when in all actuality most people who go to MA won't be able to because the training is too weak.



See, now, here you've made and interesting, and in my opinion, very incorrect assumption:  that all MA teachers (or even most, as you actually said) are in it for the money.  I had a banner year last year - by the time I covered my expenses, I cleared almost $1000 - a new record.  I teach at a YMCA; my room is not large, pretty, decorated, well-equipped, and my class only meets 2x/week (although anyone who wants is welcome to come get extra practice at the Y or in my basement - no additional charge)... but my students are enthusiastic, they enjoy what they learn in my class, and they bring their friends.  The same can be said of my instructor, and his instructor, and most of the instructors I know... but then, I would guess, after 20 years actively practicing TKD, I may know more instructors than you do.  That's not to say there aren't some who meet the definition you give - there are plenty of those, and they often have bigger classes, because students are attracted to fancy training halls - but I know more of the former type than the latter.  

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience; if you choose to quit because of it, that's your choice, and nothing I or anyone else says here, anonymous behind our computers, is going to change your mind - but please don't assume that because _you_ think it, it _must_ be correct for everyone, because it's not.  You have, from what I've seen in your posts, decided that there are no good instructors in your area, and have closed your mind to the suggestions given to you - that's your choice.  Others have made a different choice, and simply because we don't agree with you totally and completely doesn't mean we're wrong or you're wrong - it means we've had different experiences, are different people, and/or have come to different conclusions from our individual experiences... and assume we will all sit back and say "hey!  someone I only know from a computer forum is quitting because MA instruction has gone down the tubes - we must follow him blindly and accept his opinion as gospel" - because it's not going to happen.  We are all individuals, and we are all entitled to our individual opinions and actions.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Bottom line is you have people saying martial arts aren't watered down. Take TKD. TKD is essentially watered down Shotokan. The creator of TKD was a Shotokan black belt. Shotokan is watered down Okinawan martial arts.



TKD is not watered down, it's just different.  It has a lot of depth, just not in the same places.  I'd guess you are also one of those people that thinks boxing is nothing but a few punches and has no depth as well?

Do some research into these other "watered down" systems, they might surprise you.

Anything that goes competitive will have a ton of depth too it.  Those TKD guys that go to the Olympics, they don't get there for being lucky.  They know more about strategy then most will ever know.  They also have incredibly fine tuned technique and athletism.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2007)

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:_

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Kacey said:


> And yet, you claim, in another post, to be a salesperson... how do you sell things if you have no patience with your customers?  And if you have patience for them, why can't you transfer it to instructing an MA?



??? I never claimed to be a salesperson. I said that MA teachers have to be salespeople, and I won't.

At any rate, I just got a warning for posting a 'rude post'. So I'm not going to post anymore on this forum because evidently I've stepped out of bounds.

And I didn't 'beat the crap out of them'. I hit them to show their weakness. I didn't hit them hard.

You are reading too much into the posts and evidently not reading them enough.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> TKD is not watered down, it's just different.  It has a lot of depth, just not in the same places.



If you study the traditional bunkai for Okinawan katas, you will then understand that these katas were watered down (changed) purposely, creating the Heians (Pinans) to teach to kids. These katas were originally included in the original TKD and taught until it was decided that TKD was too Japanese, so they created another series of forms, further watering down the already watered down forms.

TKD is most assuredly watered down, especially Olympic TKD.

At any rate, I better stop posting because I'm getting warnings now, so I better just stop.

Sorry for causing any trouble.


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## bluemtn (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> If you study the traditional bunkai for Okinawan katas, you will then understand that these katas were watered down (changed) purposely, creating the Heians (Pinans) to teach to kids. These katas were originally included in the original TKD and taught until it was decided that TKD was too Japanese, so they created another series of forms, further watering down the already watered down forms.
> 
> TKD is most assuredly watered down, especially Olympic TKD.
> 
> ...


 
Hmmm.... Very interesting, considering I've seen Shotokan forms, and the forms I do are quite similar.  So similar, there's a few shotokan practitioners that come to my schools annual tournament in forms competition....


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## bobquinn (Mar 5, 2007)

Sorry to hear that you want to end this journey, I believe that when you end one journey it only begins another. Find peace within and the outer world will only remain a snap shot of your time here. After 30 years of training I only recall very few times of getting bored or discouraged in my quest. 30 years and I'm still searching!

peace my friend


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## Andrew Green (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> If you study the traditional bunkai for Okinawan katas, you will then understand that these katas were watered down (changed) purposely, creating the Heians (Pinans) to teach to kids.



Been there, done that.

Things change, not always for the worse.  Some good things got left out, but other things got added.  

You seem to only want to focus on the things that got left out though.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 5, 2007)

tkdgirl said:


> Hmmm.... Very interesting, considering I've seen Shotokan forms, and the forms I do are quite similar.  So similar, there's a few shotokan practitioners that come to my schools annual tournament in forms competition....



Exactly. The Heians (Pinans) are included in Shotokan as are other Shotokan katas in TKD. There are two main schools of TKD -- some are closer to Shotokan and others are farther away.

If you want more info you can look it up on Wikipedia. This is all common knowledge.

Anyways, I HAVE to stop posting now.


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## Kreth (Mar 5, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Anyways, I HAVE to stop posting now.


Yeah, I doubt you need more than 7 or 8 "last posts."


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## Brandon Fisher (Mar 5, 2007)

Wikipedia is some what accurate but the history to this is much deeper.  I think researching and studying deeper would help you, however if you are not a patient person I would say you would not beenfit from lengthy research.

Ok can we end all this now please.


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## terryl965 (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> ??? I never claimed to be a salesperson. I said that MA teachers have to be salespeople, and I won't.
> 
> At any rate, I just got a warning for posting a 'rude post'. So I'm not going to post anymore on this forum because evidently I've stepped out of bounds.
> 
> ...


 

I find what you said in the above statement to be rude, I teach fulltime at my school and I for one am not a salesperson I'm the instructor that if you sign up with over the next five or more years maybe able to get you to your BB with the knowledge to be an actual BB.

And what does hitting someone have to do with the original post?

Are so sure you are going to quit the Martial Arts or want everybody to tell you your right about your views.


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## terryl965 (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> If you study the traditional bunkai for Okinawan katas, you will then understand that these katas were watered down (changed) purposely, creating the Heians (Pinans) to teach to kids. These katas were originally included in the original TKD and taught until it was decided that TKD was too Japanese, so they created another series of forms, further watering down the already watered down forms.
> 
> TKD is most assuredly watered down, especially Olympic TKD.
> 
> ...


 

I would love for you to come over sometime and train with my group, waterdown my God man Football is waterdown, Basketball is waterdown, swimming is in th water so you know that is waterdown, do you ever see anything positive at a training hall or just everything negitive. When you se a glas half way is if full or empty to you?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Sanda is watered down martial arts as well. They don't allow a lot of techniques because they used to kill people with those techniques.


 
I think this statement more than any other you have made has cleared this up for me

Before you go labeling entire systems that someone trains you might want to know more about them. 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38089&highlight=sanshou

There are at least 2 version of Sanda/Sanshou. The one in the ring and the one they still teach to the Police and Military. And yes the one trained for the ring has a lot removed. However the one for the police military is still intact and far from watered down, I train the police/military version. 

Also if you train Sanda/sanshou in China or with someone trained in China NOT geared towards TV broadcasts and America audiences it is fairly nasty.


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## morph4me (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> There's Sanda is watered down martial arts as well. They don't allow a lot of techniques because they used to kill people with those techniques.


 
Try the Army, or the Marines, or any of the other armed forcesm, they still teach techniques to kill people, and they can send you somewhere to practice, too


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## jks9199 (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> ??? I never claimed to be a salesperson. I said that MA teachers have to be salespeople, and I won't.
> 
> At any rate, I just got a warning for posting a 'rude post'. So I'm not going to post anymore on this forum because evidently I've stepped out of bounds.
> 
> ...





lostinseattle said:


> If you study the traditional bunkai for Okinawan katas, you will then understand that these katas were watered down (changed) purposely, creating the Heians (Pinans) to teach to kids. These katas were originally included in the original TKD and taught until it was decided that TKD was too Japanese, so they created another series of forms, further watering down the already watered down forms.
> 
> TKD is most assuredly watered down, especially Olympic TKD.
> 
> ...



I'm going to suggest that these two posts highlight why you've had trouble finding a school to meet your requirements.

It seems as if your response amounts to "if they're not going to play my way, I'm leaving."  You can't take the ball and leave, 'cause it's not your ball.  

Unless you've done very extensive research into the histories and systems you feel are "watered down", you're making blanket statements that you can't support.  There are huge differences between tae kwon do schools in any area; some teach Olympic TKD, while others teach competition, and some focus on kid's programs, and a few still teach the more street effective "real" (not that the others aren't legitimate!) TKD.  The same can be said of any martial art.

You've decided to quit.  I guess you feel like you need someone's permission, else you wouldn't be posting so volumnously about it.  You've got it; you have my permission to quit and get on with your life.  As I said before; I wish you much luck, much success and much happiness.


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## IcemanSK (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> You know what? Honestly there is something that my teacher had that I was lacking. We talked about this too. He said I never really got it.
> 
> It's something called Patience. I don't think I really have patience. Don't you think that there's a difference between putting up with something for a while, even years, and being able to work with people and teach them, even given their limitations and egos and foibles?
> 
> ...


 
Well, it sounds as if you've made up your mind. Training just leads to disappointment. Best of wishes to you in whatever you choose.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 6, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> Well, it sounds as if you've made up your mind. Training just leads to disappointment. Best of wishes to you in whatever you choose.



Thank you. Yes, I've decided to quit, and it's about time.

Basically the bottom line here is that I've tried to be overly nice to people -- instructors in particular. I've dealt with their excuses, lies and shortcomings for years and years, because I was trying to make peace with them and they were all that was available.

But it's basically obvious now that I have found NO, and I repeat NO, schools that teach a decent self defense program in 15 years. The martial arts field is full of hipocritical people who on the one hand claim to teach self defense, but on the other hand realistically couldn't go down to an inner city and handle themselves.

They just couldn't do it. They couldn't defeat an extremely angry muscular attacker if their life depended upon it. The training has just become too watered down.

About the only people who would stand a chance against that are MMA people. None of the TMAs stand any chance.

So I'm sorry if this offends people and if I get banned off of here, but that's the bottom line. I'm done with dealing with the lies and paying people for absolutely nothing.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 6, 2007)

You are just full of excuses for not training. I think you actually believe what you are saying; so, I won't droan on. I will say however that the tricky thing about a discipline is that it requires discipline.
Sean


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## Flatlander (Mar 6, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I will say however that the tricky thing about a discipline is that it requires discipline.


Oooohhh, Sean, that was insightful!


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## lostinseattle (Mar 6, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> You are just full of excuses for not training. I think you actually believe what you are saying; so, I won't droan on. I will say however that the tricky thing about a discipline is that it requires discipline.
> Sean



Bottom line is discipline doesn't excuse bad training. About the only decent training out there is MMA now and after reviewing the MMA training around Seattle, I don't think it is adequate. Saliverry didn't win his last UFC bout. He's afraid to go toe to toe with a BJJ black belt in STRIKING, for goodness sake.

Do you think 15 years is enough discipline? How about 25? Discipline means nothing if your teachers aren't teaching you how to defend yourself.

Bottom line is most all teachers now are a farce, fakes, and worse than that, they don't train their students for self defense. There should be a class action suit against this kind of stuff. There needs to be standards in training.

Most of you obviously won't admit to yourselves that you don't have what it takes or your teachers are substandard, or your teaching is substandard. But it is fairly obvious that it is. Or perhaps I should say the new standard is point sparring.


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## crushing (Mar 6, 2007)

Flatlander said:


> Oooohhh, Sean, that was insightful!


 
Sean is right. . .it is what it is.


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## Flatlander (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Most of you obviously won't admit to yourselves that you don't have what it takes or your teachers are substandard, or your teaching is substandard. But it is fairly obvious that it is.


No, I think that the primary theme to come out of this thread is that your ego won't allow you to go out and seek a solid teacher.  Two have been pointed out to you so far.  However, your blinders are limiting your ability to search, which is unfortunate for you.  I encourage you to contemplate your position, and consider that there may be more out there than what you've allowed yourself to see.  Until then, enjoy your discontent.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 6, 2007)

crushing said:


> Sean is right. . .it is what it is.



??? Bottom line is most of you are wasting your time in MA and will find yourselves more hurt and more disabled doing MA and training than if you just stayed at home and watched T.V.

Because most of you who do MA will be more hurt doing MA than you would if you just watched T.V. Your chances of getting into a real fight and getting hurt are slim compared to your chances of getting hurt in MA.

If you really consider it, people taking MA are not only wasting their time, they are putting themselves in harms way for no reason at all, because they're not learning self defense, and they're increasing their chances of injury.

So I'm done with it personally. I would encourage you all to look at the hipocrisy with what you're doing and adjust your attitudes, but I doubt that will happen.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 6, 2007)

Flatlander said:


> No, I think that the primary theme to come out of this thread is that your ego won't allow you to go out and seek a solid teacher.  Two have been pointed out to you so far.  However, your blinders are limiting your ability to search, which is unfortunate for you.  I encourage you to contemplate your position, and consider that there may be more out there than what you've allowed yourself to see.  Until then, enjoy your discontent.



These guys are nothing. They're not even good at kali. If I wanted to take Kali there are much better groups out there. My cousin studies with a better group down in Sacramento.


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## Flatlander (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> These guys are nothing. They're not even good at kali. If I wanted to take Kali there are much better groups out there. My cousin studies with a better group down in Sacramento.


:rofl:  There you go, you've just illustrated your limitation.  How on earth would you be able to make such an assertion without having met them? :rofl:  Whatever, dude.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 6, 2007)

Flatlander said:


> :rofl:  There you go, you've just illustrated your limitation.  How on earth would you be able to make such an assertion without having met them? :rofl:  Whatever, dude.



Because I've trained in REAL Kali and judging by their clips alone, they have nothing on REAL Kali. Unless you've studied with the real thing, I guess you'll think they're hot stuff.

To somebody who has done the real thing with real Filipinos, somebody with a plastic dummy is just ... lame. It's extremely lame.

I guess if you haven't done the traditional dance with the old people and had some 70 year old guy put you on your *** with a stick then you wouldn't understand.


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## Kacey (Mar 6, 2007)

If you are so disgusted with the quality of MA instructors in your area, then quit.  That's your choice, and no one here can - or will - stop you.  You have said repeatedly that that is your plan, and I have no reason to disbelieve you.  However, I do not expect that you'll find people here who are going to quit on your say-so.  People start training in a martial art for a wide variety of reasons - including the one you give for yourself - and they continue or quit for an equally wide variety of reasons, most likely several reasons per person, and it is possible, although, in my opinion, unlikely that you will find someone here whose reasons and experiences are sufficiently similar to your own to cause them to follow your lead simply because you are convinced that you are right.  

I am convinced that I am right - but I am convinced on _my own behalf_ - and I neither want nor expect people to follow me in my choices simply because _I say so_ - no matter how much experience I do or do not have, and no matter home many times I reiterate my reasons.  

You've made you choice - good for you, you've made a choice; that's more than many people do - and I mean this sincerely, without a whiff of sarcasm.  If you truly want to stand out from the crowd, follow through on it.  But don't expect to convert people to your choice for the reasons you've given, and don't expect people to suddenly agree with you in droves, as I find that unlikely.


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## Flatlander (Mar 6, 2007)

lostinseattle said:


> Because I've trained in REAL Kali and judging by their clips alone, they have nothing on REAL Kali. Unless you've studied with the real thing, I guess you'll think they're hot stuff.
> 
> To somebody who has done the real thing with real Filipinos, somebody with a plastic dummy is just ... lame. It's extremely lame.
> 
> I guess if you haven't done the traditional dance with the old people and had some 70 year old guy put you on your *** with a stick then you wouldn't understand.


Doesn't answer the question.  Although you may have tasted orange juice previously, and know what orange juice is, if I set a cup in front of you and you don't bother to taste it, you cannot legitimately suggest that what I've poured in the cup is not orange juice.  You'd need to taste it in order to make that judgement.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 6, 2007)

Kacey said:


> If you are so disgusted with the quality of MA instructors in your area, then quit.  That's your choice, and no one here can - or will - stop you.  You have said repeatedly that that is your plan, and I have no reason to disbelieve you.  However, I do not expect that you'll find people here who are going to quit on your say-so.



Actually if you want to know the truth, posting on here is an indirect way of telling my former teacher that he's full of nonsense. There's no way I can tell him directly without making him lose face and causing a big problem.

There are several people on here that will relay this on up the gossip chain. They've assuredly already figured out who I am, given my postings, so they'll spread the news on up the chain.

If you're not familiar with Chinese etiquette, then perhaps this is lost on you. Otherwise, you'll probably get it.

I don't expect anybody to quit over this. I would hope that people would demand their teachers teach a more rigorous program, but given the small readership of this board, I doubt anybody will do that.

This is all just a message ... a message that I can't give directly.


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## Brandon Fisher (Mar 6, 2007)

Well my training has saved my life and I know what it is to fight for your life.  I know what real self defense is and what it isn't and I teach real self defense.  You on the other hand seem to have to get that ego in check.  There are a lot of great martial artists that don't ever show their full potential until its absolutely needed.  There is no need to beat the living snot out of someone in training sessions.


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## lostinseattle (Mar 6, 2007)

Flatlander said:


> Doesn't answer the question.  Although you may have tasted orange juice previously, and know what orange juice is, if I set a cup in front of you and you don't bother to taste it, you cannot legitimately suggest that what I've poured in the cup is not orange juice.  You'd need to taste it in order to make that judgement.



How can I put this ... in sporting terms, since you probably understand it.

Do you really think somebody who watched football for 25 years really can't tell if some quarterback isn't as good as Joe Montana? Or can't tell if some receiver isn't as good as Jerry Rice?

Just by watching a clip alone?

No ... right? So do you really think somebody who has taken MA for 25 years can't tell based upon a clip alone if somebody is decent?

No, right? It's not exactly rocket science.

Given the stances and body dynamics of those two teachers who were recommended, it is quite obvious that Warden has some skill -- the other guy is kindof lame. But Warden doesn't have enough skill that I'd bother studying with him personally.


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## crushing (Mar 6, 2007)

I admit that I'm not familiar with CMA ettiquette, but for some reason I don't think that it requires that you talk about your teacher behind his back.

Also, if his training is such a farce, you shouldn't be worried taking a much more direct approach.

Bye


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## lostinseattle (Mar 6, 2007)

crushing said:


> I admit that I'm not familiar with CMA ettiquette, but for some reason I don't think that it requires that you talk about your teacher behind his back.
> 
> Also, if his training is such a farce, you shouldn't be worried taking a much more direct approach.
> 
> Bye



Obviously you haven't dealt much with old school Chinese.


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## Lisa (Mar 6, 2007)

*Thread locked pending Admin Review.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.*


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