# Chi sau



## kajx (Jun 1, 2009)

Hey guys, 

I need some suggestions and tips in helping to let go of the tension i always build up when i perform the bong sau on my left side during double chi sau. I've been pointed that I'm doing the bong sau in a too circular motion than as opposed to actually going forward instead. And I'm also finding it hard to use the opponent's tan sau as the force initiating my movement to the bong sau. I can tell you that my left shoulders get pretty tense and sore after a few rolls and I know it is because I'm not doing the bong sau correctly. 

Any suggestions?


----------



## seasoned (Jun 1, 2009)

Welcome to MT. This is a very good question. I can't comment much on Wing Chun, or CMA, but I am well aware of holding tension and it's adverse affects on training. I'm looking forward, as you are, to hearing from posters on this. Enjoy the site.


----------



## dnovice (Jun 1, 2009)

kajx said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I need some suggestions and tips in helping to let go of the tension i always build up when i perform the bong sau on my left side during double chi sau. I've been pointed that I'm doing the bong sau in a too circular motion than as opposed to actually going forward instead. And I'm also finding it hard to use the opponent's tan sau as the force initiating my movement to the bong sau. I can tell you that my left shoulders get pretty tense and sore after a few rolls and I know it is because I'm not doing the bong sau correctly.
> 
> Any suggestions?



Welcome to the forum kajx.

First make sure you can do the bong sau right by itself. Forget chi sau for now.     Ask your instructor if you are doing it right. Once you've got that practice practice in front of the mirror rolling with correct form. Drill into your body. Apply what you have learned.

Then when chi sau focus on relaxing your shoulders (keep your shoulders down when rolling). Don't worryabout techniques just roll. Focusing on too much can make you tense... 

Good luck.


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 1, 2009)

I used to have the same problem:
My recommendation would be practice more "Poon Sau" whereas if your shoulders are getting tired it seems like you guys are using more of a "Luk Sau" drill.

Poon Sau is great it teaches the mechanics, concepts and basic energetics of Chi Sau. So we generally would practice this format for around 6 months depending on the Student and how adept they are.

But as stated before be more aware of this problem and isolate it, before it leads to injuries. Also Dan Chi Sau would be great as well, just dont utilize to much energy.
As most likely you probably raise your shoulder to compensate for the incoming energy of your partner thus causing the tension in that extremity.

Just relax and take your time, all the best.


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 1, 2009)

With your Bong Sau you are probably doing what we call " lifting " which is basically just throwing your elbow up which is wearing out your deltoids. 

Bong Sau and Tan Sau use revolving force which is driven from the elbow . When you go from Tan to Bong rotate your wrist first then the elbow follows , when going from Bong to Tan sink the the elbow first then rotate the wrist .

 Keep forward force on and visualise a drilling motion with both these movements. With the other problem you have I think you meant to say that you have trouble rolling into Bong Sau when the partner initiates an attack with his Fook Sau .

 Well the best way to work on the problem is to isolate the troublesome technique and then do a shitload of them until you can do it properly. Get your partner to put his Fook sau on , you put your Tan sau on , stance check , relaxed check , wrist on centreline check , forward force check . 

Right , now have your partner start raising his Fook Sau , let the force of your partners Fook sau rotate your forearm as you revolve into Bong Sau exactly like I told you before , wrist first then elbow , then the other way round when you go from Bong to Tan. He then lowers his Fook sau and you do it all over again and again and again........................

Don't worry about the palm strike from the Tan sau just concentrate on doing Tan / Bong correctly and sticking to his wrist.


----------



## phfman (Jun 1, 2009)

I couldn't have said it better. Very good insight to the mechanics and sensitivity of Chi Sao.


----------



## JGreber (Jun 1, 2009)

I think mook jong explains it best, but you should definitely consult your Sifu. It takes a while before the shoulders become comfortable with chi sao practice. You are probably using to much of a raise instead of drilling from the wrist, causing deltoid pain. Practice, practice, practice!


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh yes as JGreber says definitely consult your Sifu , we're not there, we can't see what you are doing , your Sifu can.

Just one thing , does your problem happen with every partner or only one?
Because you can have these people that I call  " Grinders " who tend to be very tense and in most cases are actually pushing down with their Fook Sau instead of having forward force .

 Their pushing down will also fatigue your shoulders , It might be an idea next time you do Chi sau to just test them out by _running palms _or just suddenly take your hand away to see exactly where their force is going.
There could be a small chance that it is them with the problem , and not you.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jun 2, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Because you can have these people that I call " Grinders " who tend to be very tense and in most cases are actually pushing down with their Fook Sau instead of having forward force.


 
That can be a somewhat effective opening though. Go from pressing forward with more force then normal, and then grind down quickly. A good chunk of the time you can put opponent into a comprised position (what kind of poistion depends on how they react).

Outside of that unrelated remark, I cann't think of anything that might help that hasn't already been said.


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 2, 2009)

Depends how good they are , you might be able to collapse their Tan sau and strike through if their quite inexperienced . 
But against any one good they will usually feel the downward pressure and run palms and hit you in the chest or redirect your force with a low Bong sau.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jun 2, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Depends how good they are , you might be able to collapse their Tan sau and strike through if their quite inexperienced .
> But against any one good they will usually feel the downward pressure and run palms and hit you in the chest or redirect your force with a low Bong sau.


 
I'm not talking about driving straight down, but rather pushing forward more then normal (to get them to push forward more then normal), and then pulling down. Basicly, tricking your opponent into commiting force against nothing, and re-directing that force.


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 3, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> I'm not talking about driving straight down, but rather pushing forward more then normal (to get them to push forward more then normal), and then pulling down. Basicly, tricking your opponent into commiting force against nothing, and re-directing that force.


 
Okay , I understand what you are saying now but what I said earlier about the skill of the person still applies . You may get away with it against a novice .

 But against an experienced practitioner he will use just enough forward force to counter your force and no more. Your force would also be uneven , a rise in pressure on the Fook sau side without a  corresponding rise in pressure  on the Tan sau side would be detected and taken advantage of straight away.

 In our lineage a typical response on feeling an increase in pressure like that from the Fook sau would be to pivot and go into what we call a reverse Tan sau. 

The effect of this is because you have committed yourself by using excessive force you will find your Fook sau sliding down the outside of his reverse Tan sau , as he pivots you off to the side and opens you right up , and then pivots back into you and strikes.

 I've had the opportunity to do Chi sau with quite a few skillful people over the years , and the best strategy is not to give them anything to work with mate.

 Just make sure your angles are perfect , both wrists on the centreline and projecting force to the centreline from your elbows, don't lean , just use enough forward force to maintain your angles , and stay relaxed.
 Perfect rolling is your best defence against attacks , and trapping etc.

 You give them anything that is not directly focussed at the centreline or uneven in force and they will use it against you . One analogy you can think of with Chi sau is that of a big inflatable leather ball that is rotating at high speed out in front of you . 

You try to strike the rotating sphere , because its inflatable it absorbs a tiny bit of your force and then bounces back , but because of the rotation of the ball most of your force is spun off to the side and redirected .
The more force you use and the more committed you are the more you find yourself thrown off to the side of this rapidly spinning ball.

 Think of your arms in Chi sau as this sphere , but unlike the spinning sphere our arms can rotate in multiple directions to redirect any force that makes contact with our "Sphere".


----------



## Domino (Jun 3, 2009)

I like to learn 'floppyness' by flipping a coin and snatch/fling your hands to grab at it, alternate hands.


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 3, 2009)

Domino said:


> I like to learn 'floppyness' by flipping a coin and snatch/fling your hands to grab at it, alternate hands.


 
Probably help improve your hand / eye co-ordination mate.
Now , with your 'floppyness' are you aware that there are some little blue pills you can take for that .   :wink1:

Being able to relax as it pertains to developing skill in Wing Chun is only part of the equation .
 You also have to work on your angles and structure which work in tandem with this relaxed muscle state. The best way to do that is to practice your SLT form.


----------



## Domino (Jun 3, 2009)

haha v.good 
Love SLT, prefer the latter parts, close eyes and breathing for deeper state.


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 5, 2009)

Domino said:


> haha v.good
> Love SLT, prefer the latter parts, close eyes and breathing for deeper state.


Don't always close your eyes when you practice the form , I seem to remember something about Sil Lum Tao form also being training for the eyes.
 Don't ask me how because I have long since forgotten , but I remember someone telling me that.


----------



## geezer (Jun 5, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Don't always close your eyes when you practice the form , I seem to remember something about Sil Lum Tao form also being training for the eyes.
> Don't ask me how because I have long since forgotten , but I remember someone telling me that.



How do you feel about closing your eyes when practicing chi-sau?


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 5, 2009)

I do it quite often , especially if I'm doing Chi sau with some one who I am a lot better than. I just close my eyes , and let them go for it and let them start attacking me and I try to nullify their attacks and control them.
It really gets me into the zone to be quite honest , a very deep level of concentration.

 Probably because there is nothing visually to distract , you can just focus on your tactile sense. Sometimes I will even get them to break off slightly and move off to the side or just keep moving right or left at random so that I have to find them and re-establish contact and keep adjusting my position so that I am square on to them just by relying on touch.

 After a while you can sense the position of their body just by touch , and you open your eyes and 9 times out of ten they'll be in the position you thought they would be.

Some one did tell me once that if you close your eyes all the time when you do Chi sau that you will only be able to fight with your eyes closed. 

But I think thats a load of crap , when you consider that you might be attacked out on the street in low levels of light or even in the pitch dark when your in bed . Because you are already use to training without the benefit of vision I think that it can only give you an advantage.


----------



## geezer (Jun 5, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Some one did tell me once that if you close your eyes all the time when you do Chi sau that you will only be able to fight with your eyes closed. But I think thats a load of crap...



I also find that closing my eyes helps me really concentrate on the feeling of the energy flow. And, what you said about sensing their entire body position from the tactile input you pick up with your bridges is very true.

However, I asked the question because I have also heard instructors caution against training too much this way. The concern was _not_ that you would have to fight with your eyes shut. Rather it was that you would be more easily distracted by visual stimuli, and would not be able to use visual cues to your benefit as well as tactile cues. An example would be a facial expression that telegraphs your opponent's intention, like that "narrowing of the eyes" you referred to on the thread about "telegraphing". You'd have to have some pretty sensitive arms to pick up _that_ with your eyes shut! The best sounding advice was to limit your eyes-shut practice and maintain a balance.


----------



## Domino (Jun 5, 2009)

Totally understand what you are saying, 
with 2 keys surely this would improve chi sao.
Dont think ... 'feeel'


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 6, 2009)

geezer said:


> I also find that closing my eyes helps me really concentrate on the feeling of the energy flow. And, what you said about sensing their entire body position from the tactile input you pick up with your bridges is very true.
> 
> However, I asked the question because I have also heard instructors caution against training too much this way. The concern was _not_ that you would have to fight with your eyes shut. Rather it was that you would be more easily distracted by visual stimuli, and would not be able to use visual cues to your benefit as well as tactile cues. An example would be a facial expression that telegraphs your opponent's intention, like that "narrowing of the eyes" you referred to on the thread about "telegraphing". You'd have to have some pretty sensitive arms to pick up _that_ with your eyes shut! The best sounding advice was to limit your eyes-shut practice and maintain a balance.


 
Don't get me wrong , its not the only way you should train. I mainly do it when the skill gap is very large , and I don't think I'm really getting any thing out of the session. So I will handicap myself, by closing my eyes , or maybe standing on one leg , or sparring them with one arm. Its a bit of fun for them as well because sometimes they can get a hit through. You better believe it though If I'm with someone who's close to my level or better , then my eyes will be wide open brother.

You mentioned about telegraphing with facial expressions , that is something that I have mostly seen with beginners or untrained people.
Its like their face betrays the effort they are about to make in their attack before they do it. I think it is a habit that has to be trained out of you .

 Take weight training for example , I just went in the spare room where I train and picked up a barbell started doing some curls , watched my expression in the mirror. As I did the first rep my eyes narrowed and facial expression changed , have you ever seen somebody with a placid , relaxed expression when doing heavy weights ? , I haven't .

 It seems to be an engrained habit that people exhibit when they think they are going apply a lot of effort. But I don't do this in Wing Chun , because this habit has been trained out of me , and you learn to relax and put on the poker face.

Actually when I think about it , I rely on sight to pick up the facial and body cues when they are at kicking or just out of punching range . But soon as we engage arms I'm mostly concentrating on their chest area . 

Although I can see their face I'm not really looking at it , most guys that have been training for a while will have that poker face on so you won't be getting any clues there anyway.

You do get some people who scrunch their face up a little just before they do a trap , or even worse you get the ones that you feel their arms slightly hesitate or build up tension just before they try and trap you.
A very interesting subject.


----------



## geezer (Jun 6, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Take weight training for example , I just went in the spare room where I train and picked up a barbell started doing some curls , watched my expression in the mirror. As I did the first rep my eyes narrowed and facial expression changed , *have you ever seen somebody with a placid , relaxed expression when doing heavy weights ?* , I haven't .



I've tried that. Deliberately trying to have a calm, relaxed expression while lifting. It doesn't work for me. In fact I go to the opposite extreme. You know, grimacing, grunting, and making exaggerated breathing noises. I get away with it because I lift privately on my back porch. But I have to make sure the kids aren't around or they press their faces to the window, start imitating me and then shriek and howl with laughter. Makes it a bit hard to concentrate. Especially when they bring their friends to watch the show.


----------



## mook jong man (Jun 6, 2009)

Ha , reminds me of when we used to live at another place where I used to train on the heavybag in the backyard . The people next door , their back verandah overlooked our side fence. 
They had three little kids who used to stand there watching me and saying " Why don't you kick high Mr Karate man , go on kick high".


----------

