# cutting punch



## guy b

Does anyone have any footage of this in use, whatever you call it?


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## LFJ

This first one is from Moy Yat lineage. Whenever I've seen people talking about "excluding" and "including" punches, this is what they're talking about.

I see no elbow idea in these either. It is just cutting with the forearm at an angle, or lifting on the inside. They aren't even close enough to land as a punch. They end up just being straight forearm blocks with a fist shape attached.

To land as a punch, the inside one will have to keep rising in order to continue wedging the opponent's arm out; like in the second video where he ends up punching to the guy's forehead or higher while flaring his elbow.

The outside one is probably impossible to land as a punch without muscling it through and by that point it will have wasted all it's power on the guy's arm anyway.

No elbow and no strategy to even make these halfway likely to succeed.


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## guy b

Excluding punch at 3.15 here


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## guy b

Ok so as far as I can tell from nobody important, the first two clips on this thread are not the gate punch or cutting punch due to technical inadequacy. 

Also KPM's excluding punch is something different?

Is it possible for someone that does this kind of punch to post an example? For something that is Wing Chun 101 it seems very hard to pin down what you guys mean.


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## LFJ

Outer gate & inner gate punches.

Also wrist/hand-led, no awareness of elbow.


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## guy b

LFJ said:


> Outer gate & inner gate punches.
> 
> Also wrist/hand-led, no awareness of elbow.



Is this the punch you are describing NI?


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Outer gate & inner gate punches.
> 
> Also wrist/hand-led, no awareness of elbow.


Nice try but, sorry no. Gate punching in YCW WC isn't a forced technique. Also the elbow doesn't wander, body movement creates the angle.


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## KPM

Uh...James Yim Lee certainly wasn't the best example of Wing Chun.


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## Nobody Important

KPM said:


> Uh...James Yim Lee certainly wasn't the best example of Wing Chun.


Poor attempt at a gotcha moment. They know exactly what we are talking about, but refuse to acknowledge it. They would rather find poor examples to try and rub in your face. Thing is the concept that James Yim Lee is trying to convey is gate punching, except the elbow shouldn't wander nor should you chase the arm to achieve it. It can also be done with other punches not just straight punch. But whatever, I've explained it enough.


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## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> Poor attempt at a gotcha moment. They know exactly what we are talking about, but refuse to acknowledge it. They would rather find poor examples to try and rub in your face. Thing is the concept that James Yim Lee is trying to convey is gate punching, except the elbow shouldn't wander nor should you chase the arm to achieve it. It can also be done with other punches not just straight punch. But whatever, I've explained it enough.



I have no idea what you mean by gate punching

So far gate punching was initially not what KPM was doing in his clip, then for some reason it was. If you yourself are unsure about what it is then I don't see why you would expect me to figure it out by guessing? KPM's clip was not representative of the elbow ideas in WSL VT

If you do want to talk about gate punching then please go ahead. If not then don't. No need to drama it up


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## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> I have no idea what you mean by gate punching
> 
> So far gate punching was initially not what KPM was doing in his clip, then for some reason it was. If you yourself are unsure about what it is then I don't see why you would expect me to figure it out by guessing? KPM's clip was not representative of the elbow ideas in WSL VT
> 
> If you do want to talk about gate punching then please go ahead. If not then don't. No need to drama it up


Stop playing ignorant and trying to spin it. I've already said I didn't see it the first time, but then I rewatched the video. He performs the concept at 3:17, apparently you ignored that post. I've spoken at length about gate punching, I'm not going to repeat myself. Reread my posts or don't I don't care. PB does it, so either you're familiar with the concept (as LFJ expressed he is), you never learned it or you are lying. In any case I could care less. I've given the mice enough cheese for one day.


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## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Outer gate & inner gate punches.
> 
> Also wrist/hand-led, no awareness of elbow.


I'm trying to follow this. What does "awareness of the elbow" mean? How can we see that in action?


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## KPM

gpseymour said:


> I'm trying to follow this. What does "awareness of the elbow" mean? How can we see that in action?



You'll have to ask Guy.  But don't expect a long explanation or a video to illustrate what he means.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I've spoken at length about gate punching, I'm not going to repeat myself. Reread my posts or don't I don't care. PB does it, so either you're familiar with the concept (as LFJ expressed he is), you never learned it or you are lying.



I have expressed familiarity? I still haven't pinned down exactly what you're talking about. You have denied everything I've posted as being your gate punch. So, I don't know what else to do. If you could just post the PB video, that'd be great.


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## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> I'm trying to follow this. What does "awareness of the elbow" mean? How can we see that in action?



We train elbow control in SNT. It never flares like this.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Nice try but, sorry no. Gate punching in YCW WC isn't a forced technique. Also the elbow doesn't wander, body movement creates the angle.



So, the elbow is the same for inside or outside gate? How does it deal with the incoming punch obstructing the line? You just try to punch straight through it?

When the guy in the first video does this from the outside, he ends up muscling it and still not getting through. He's unable to get over the arm and it becomes more of a block than a punch.

From the inside, he is forced to change to a wedging technique to lift the arm up, like in the second video. Doing it the same as from the outside would get him hit.



Nobody Important said:


> It can also be done with other punches not just straight punch.



There's no attempt at a "gotcha moment". This last statement just complicates things further. If you could offer some visual of it, we could move forward with the discussion.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> I have expressed familiarity? I still haven't pinned down exactly what you're talking about. You have denied everything I've posted as being your gate punch. So, I don't know what else to do. If you could just post the PB video, that'd be great.


You discussed it in the conversation on the Wu Sau-Man Sau.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> So, the elbow is the same for inside or outside gate? How does it deal with the incoming punch obstructing the line? You just try to punch straight through it?
> 
> When the guy in the first video does this from the outside, he ends up muscling it and still not getting through. He's unable to get over the arm and it becomes more of a block than a punch.
> 
> From the inside, he is forced to change to a wedging technique to lift the arm up, like in the second video. Doing it the same as from the outside would get him hit.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no attempt at a "gotcha moment". This last statement just complicates things further. If you could offer some visual of it, we could move forward with the discussion.


Read my response on the other thread. 

This is the problem with having the same conversation on multiple threads.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Read my response on the other thread.
> 
> This is the problem with having the same conversation on multiple threads.



Took you long enough to get here. You could have come sooner.



Nobody Important said:


> You just described it. For the tenth time it's just a straight punch, elbow does not flare, body rotation allows for the angle that creates the wedge, strike is to center. It uses the concept of Lin Siu Dai Da via the punch itself. If it is above their forearm it is outer gate, below it is inner gate. Its the same concept as in the videos you presented. You asked if it was my gate punch I said no, because, they are:
> 1. Chasing the arm
> 2. Flaring elbows
> 3. Not rotating
> Gate punching in YCW WC is not deliberate in the sense that you actively try to make it happen. There is no focus on attacking the arm to simultaneously punch the opponent, it is simply punch, if it happens it happens because of proper form and structure.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that you post pictures from a book written by Bruce Lee, who learned mostly from Wong Sheung Leung and claim not to know this basic punching method. Since it is a method employed by various Wing Chun branches, both Yip Man and Non-Yip Man, its logical to to assume this isn't a made up Bruce Lee thing. So that leaves the questions, did Bruce Lee learn it from Yip Man or Wong Sheung Leung? If from Yip Man why didn't Wong Sheung Leung learn it? If he learned it from Wong Sheung Leung why was Bruce the only one to learn it. Or is it more likely you simply call it by a different name?



What you explain doesn't contain any YMVT elbow idea. It is just rotating your body to create an angle, like in KPM's video. The elbow follows the wrist along an outside line in order to punch through the opponent's arm. How will this work from inside gate?


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I find it hard to believe that you post pictures from a book written by Bruce Lee, who learned mostly from Wong Sheung Leung and claim not to know this basic punching method. Since it is a method employed by various Wing Chun branches, both Yip Man and Non-Yip Man, its logical to to assume this isn't a made up Bruce Lee thing. So that leaves the questions, did Bruce Lee learn it from Yip Man or Wong Sheung Leung? If from Yip Man why didn't Wong Sheung Leung learn it? If he learned it from Wong Sheung Leung why was Bruce the only one to learn it. Or is it more likely you simply call it by a different name?



Sounds like a broken concept due to missing elbow ideas.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Took you long enough to get here. You could have come sooner.
> 
> 
> 
> What you explain doesn't contain any YMVT elbow idea. It is just rotating your body to create an angle, like in KPM's video. The elbow follows the wrist along an outside line in order to punch through the opponent's arm. How will this work from inside gate?


Like I give two spits and half a fart if it contains YMVT elbow ideas, I don't do YMVT, YCWWC has their own ideas. I could care less if they adhere to yours or not. Does your elbow wander when you throw a straight punch? Because mine doesn't. Level is irrelevant, the elbow starts and ends on the line of attack. Maybe you ought to explain what you mean by "Elbow Idea", to me it certainly doesn't allow wandering. Once again in simplest terms possible, punch starts at shoulder, is aligned by elbow (on line of attack) and directed by wrist (level of height) to target. Its three joints working in conjunction with forward pressure. Shoulder firmly in socket, elbow down and vertical fist to align radius and ulna, body rotation as needed to create angle for natural wedge. There is no focus on attacking the arm to simultaneously punch the opponent, it is simply punch, if it happens it happens because of proper form and structure.

When I entered this conversation it was a simple statement (on my thread) about YCWWC having a similar concept to the technique of cutting/inclusion/exclusion punching which in YCWWC we call gate punching (which is beginner stuff, others understood it) it wasn't a discussion on elbow ideas in YMVT. It was turned into that by you and Guy, who continue to pose questions about it in relation to your elbow ideas. I've explained it enough, you either get it or you don't. If you don't utilize the method what do you care? If you do use it (or something similar) please explain how you do it, otherwise we have nothing left to discuss.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Like I give to spits and half a fart if it contains YMVT elbow ideas, I don't do YMVT, YCWWC has their own ideas. I could care less if they adhere to yours or not.



Then why join a discussion on elbow focus in YMVT?



> When I entered this conversation it was a simple statement (on my thread) about YCWWC having a similar concept to the technique of cutting/inclusion/exclusion punching which in YCWWC we call gate punching (which is beginner stuff, others understood it) it wasn't a discussion on elbow ideas in YMVT. It was turned into that by you and Guy, who continue to pose questions about it in relation to your elbow ideas.



The start of the conversation was about elbow focus in YMVT. Juany said it is universal in YM lineages. The conversation continued from there to explore whether or not that is true. All discussion and video up to that point demonstrated that it is not. 

KPM then presented his punch as an example, but it also doesn't use YMVT elbow. Then you came along talking about a gate punch and got upset when we said it doesn't show YMVT elbow either.

But if you aren't interested in YMVT and don't care, I don't know why you are even here.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Then why join a discussion on elbow focus in YMVT?
> 
> 
> 
> The start of the conversation was about elbow focus in YMVT. Juany said it is universal in YM lineages. The conversation continued from there to explore whether or not that is true. All discussion and video up to that point demonstrated that it is not.
> 
> KPM then presented his punch as an example, but it also doesn't use YMVT elbow. Then you came along talking about a gate punch and got upset when we said it doesn't show YMVT elbow either.
> 
> But if you aren't interested in YMVT and don't care, I don't know why you are even here.


I made a passing comment on MY thread, a simple comparison. I was jumped on for it and asked dozen of questions, all of which I answered. Funny how the favor is never returned.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I made a passing comment on MY thread, a simple comparison. I was jumped on for it and asked dozen of questions, all of which I answered. Funny how the favor is never returned.



Comparison of what? KPM was the only one talking about any particular technique.

You haven't explained how your gate punch is supposed to work without change from the inside gate. The guys in the first couple videos here have to raise their arms up to continue wedging the opponent's arm out. You said yours doesn't change.

You also said it can be done with other punches besides a straight. Like what, a hook, an uppercut, an overhand? It's really unclear what you're talking about. 

I don't do what you and KPM have shown/described, so I don't know what you want from me.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Comparison of what? KPM was the only one talking about any particular technique.
> 
> You haven't explained how your gate punch is supposed to work without change from the inside gate. The guys in the first couple videos here have to raise their arms up to continue wedging the opponent's arm out. You said yours doesn't change.
> 
> You also said it can be done with other punches besides a straight. Like what, a hook, an uppercut, an overhand? It's really unclear what you're talking about.
> 
> I don't do what you and KPM have shown/described, so I don't know what you want from me.


You're fixating on application, I've explained it in detail several times, reread my posts. Stop comparing it to videos of people chasing an incoming punch, I've told you it isn't done like that. There is no arm chasing. If you don't do it, stop trying to compare it with what you do. Why bother trying to constantly compare what others do based on material you say you don't have? It doesn't make sense.You say I have no business in this "elbow idea" conversation yet you continue to hound me with questions about my gate punch. I've laid it out plainly, I can't be any clearer. Figure it out for yourself, it won't help you to have me walk you through it. That should be familiar to you.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Stop comparing it to videos of people chasing an incoming punch, I've told you it isn't done like that.



You want it to be understood, but are unwilling to provide any better visual of it. 

You have said it could be another type of punch besides a straight. That could be anything as far as I can tell.



> If you don't do it, stop trying to compare it with what you do. Why bother trying to constantly compare what others do based on material you say you don't have?



Because you posted it in a conversation on elbow focus in YMVT, apparently to say you have it to. So, naturally I will try to see if the idea is there or not. It seems not, from what I can gather.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> You want it to be understood, but are unwilling to provide any better visual of it.
> 
> You have said it could be another type of punch besides a straight. That could be anything as far as I can tell.
> 
> 
> 
> Because you posted it in a conversation on elbow focus in YMVT, apparently to say you have it to. So, naturally I will try to see if the idea is there or not. It seems not, from what I can gather.


I don't care if you understand it or not.

Yes the concept can be applied to other types of punches.

I made a comment about a type of punch, was asked about that punch, I explained that punch then was drilled about "elbow ideas" concerning that punch. 

The intention was nothing more than to say that YCWWC also contains a cutting/inclusion/exclusion punch known as a gate punch, to emphasize that other branches of WC also have a technique as described. I was asked specifically about the gate punch not "elbow ideas", that was later tied into the conversation, which I did answer in relation to the gate punch. I was not making any direct correlation to the subject of " YMVT elbow ideas" but to the concept of gate punching itself. But since we are on the subject, I asked you, are you going to explain your "elbow ideas"? Or are you going to continue deflecting and asking about the gate punch?

I'm done explaining it and really have no interest in "YMVT elbow ideas". If you don't have a "gate punching" concept we have nothing to discuss and this entire thread is moot. If you wanted to discuss "elbow ideas" you should have labeled the thread "Elbow Ideas" and not "Cutting Punches".


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## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> Like I give two spits and half a fart if it contains YMVT elbow ideas, I don't do YMVT, YCWWC has their own ideas.



Well obviously you do, or you wouldn't have entered a discussion about YM VT elbow ideas



> Does your elbow wander when you throw a straight punch? Because mine doesn't. Level is irrelevant, the elbow starts and ends on the line of attack. Maybe you ought to explain what you mean by "Elbow Idea", to me it certainly doesn't allow wandering. Once again in simplest terms possible, punch starts at shoulder, is aligned by elbow (on line of attack) and directed by wrist (level of height) to target. Its three joints working in conjunction with forward pressure. Shoulder firmly in socket, elbow down and vertical fist to align radius and ulna, body rotation as needed to create angle for natural wedge. There is no focus on attacking the arm to simultaneously punch the opponent, it is simply punch, if it happens it happens because of proper form and structure.



I see, so it's a special punch that does everything but requires nothing. Body rotates to make it happen, but it also just happens due to proper form. It happens in the same way regardless of situation. It's wrist led but somehow the elbow is involved. Elbow stays on the line of attack, but YKS and YC forms show elbow rising and lack of any sophisticated elbow idea. 

I guess you have to believe it to see it? Because I'm not seeing it. 



> When I entered this conversation it was a simple statement (on my thread) about YCWWC having a similar concept to the technique of cutting/inclusion/exclusion punching which in YCWWC we call gate punching (which is beginner stuff, others understood it) it wasn't a discussion on elbow ideas in YMVT. It was turned into that by you and Guy, who continue to pose questions about it in relation to your elbow ideas. I've explained it enough, you either get it or you don't.



Actually it was a discussion on YM VT elbow ideas with Juany.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I was asked specifically about the gate punch not "elbow ideas", that was later tied into the conversation



The punch was presented by KPM as an example of the elbow idea which was the topic of discussion.



> If you wanted to discuss "elbow ideas" you should have labeled the thread "Elbow Ideas" and not "Cutting Punches".



The punch came up as an example of the elbow idea which was claimed to be "universal" and WC101, but we aren't seeing it at all.



> are you going to explain your "elbow ideas"?





> really have no interest in "YMVT elbow ideas".



Sounds like you're just scratching around for cheese then.


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## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> Well obviously you do, or you wouldn't have entered a discussion about YM VT elbow ideas


Again I made a comment about a specific punching action. You asked questions about it I answered. Not my fault you can't comprehend a simple little idea.




guy b said:


> I see, so it's a special punch that does everything but requires nothing. Body rotates to make it happen, but it also just happens due to proper form. It happens in the same way regardless of situation. It's wrist led but somehow the elbow is involved. Elbow stays on the line of attack, but YKS and YC forms show elbow rising and lack of any sophisticated elbow idea.


Who said it does everything? Not me. Proper form and body rotation should go hand in hand. How is it wrist led, aside from the anatomical fact that the wrist is at the end of the arm? Shoulder, elbow, wrist is the progression. I'll simplify this by leaving out all the medical jargon. A punch cannot be thrown from the wrist it starts in the chest to neck to shoulder to arm to forearm to wrist and hand. It cannot be led by the wrist, it is directed by the wrist to its target as aligned by the elbow on the line of attack. I fail to see how that is "wrist led" as you call it. In a straight punch the shoulder, elbow and wrist joints work in conjunction as a single aligned unit to enforce forward pressure towards the center, creating a natural wedge. The arm is strongest moving towards center and has the most leverage when close to the body. Its fullest potential for impact is at it's full extension. It is driven from the chest/shoulder region, aligned on the line of attack via the elbow and the elbow is responsible for extension (it's a hinge joint), all this is directed towards the target via the wrist. Do you want to argue anatomy?



guy b said:


> I guess you have to believe it to see it? Because I'm not seeing it.


You have to open your eyes, figuratively, but you're so drunk on the kool aid you've been drinking its impossible to see anything outside your own perspective.



guy b said:


> Actually it was a discussion on YM VT elbow ideas with Juany.


Then why do you keep inquiring about the YCWWC gate punch?


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> It cannot be* led by the wrist*, it is *directed by the wrist* to its target as aligned by the elbow on the line of attack.



Led by the wrist means directed by the wrist. 

The elbow is following your wrist. So, wrist-led.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> The punch was presented by KPM as an example of the elbow idea which was the topic of discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> The punch came up as an example of the elbow idea which was claimed to be "universal" and WC101, but we aren't seeing it at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you're just scratching around for cheese then.


No the punch came up as being "universal" and WC101, which it is. The "elbow idea" was something you applied to it, it may have been part of your conversation with Juany and KPM, but I never mentioned YMVT "elbow ideas" and it wasn't brought up to me until later. 

How is it that I'm scratching for cheese when you two are making all the inquiries? I've provided detailed answers to every question. Neither of you has yet explained what these mysterious YMVT "elbow ideas" are, you keep asking about YCWWC gate punching. Seems to me your the ones pretending to have secrets. Share or don't, I don't care, but at least be forthcoming with your intentions.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Led by the wrist means directed by the wrist.
> 
> The elbow is following your wrist. So, wrist-led.


It is impossible for your wrist to follow your elbow, it is located in front of it, the elbow will always follow. You can believe otherwise. That is unless your talking about chopping your punches from an elbow strike position.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> It is impossible for your wrist to follow your elbow, it is located in front of it, the elbow will always follow. You can believe otherwise.



No one said for the wrist to follow the elbow.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> No the punch came up as being "universal" and WC101, which it is. The "elbow idea" was something you applied to it, it may have been part of your conversation with Juany and KPM, but I never mentioned YMVT "elbow ideas" and it wasn't brought up to me until later.
> 
> How is it that I'm scratching for cheese when you two are making all the inquiries? I've provided detailed answers to every question. Neither of you has yet explained what these mysterious YMVT "elbow ideas" are, you keep asking about YCWWC gate punching. Seems to me your the ones pretending to have secrets. Share or don't, I don't care, but at least be forthcoming with your intentions.



You admittedly didn't read the conversation before posting. Maybe try doing so next time. And if you don't care, don't join.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> No one said for the wrist to follow the elbow.


No you said if the elbow follows the wrist it's wrist led. I simply pointed out there isn't another way for it to happen anatomically.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> You admittedly didn't read the conversation before posting. Maybe try doing so next time. And if you don't care, don't join.


Quit derailing my threads when you have your own on the subject in question.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> No the punch came up as being "universal" and WC101, which it is. The "elbow idea" was something you applied to it,



It was always about the elbow idea being "universal" and you knew it.

Page 26, Post #504


Juany118 said:


> (The elbow focus in my experience is pretty much universal in YM WC lineages.)



Page 26, Post #513


KPM said:


> Most YM lineages do make use of the "elbow inward" and blocking/attacking at the same time as part of a "cutting" punch.  That part is relatively "universal."



And shortly after here you come to say "my YCW WC has it too".

Page 26, Post #520


Nobody Important said:


> Called an outer gate punch when atop opponents arm and inner gate punch when under in YCW WC.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> No you said if the elbow follows the wrist it's wrist led. I simply pointed out there isn't another way for it to happen anatomically.



Not that you are aware of, because your system lacks the elbow focus.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> It was always about the elbow idea being "universal" and you knew it.
> 
> Page 26, Post #504
> 
> 
> Page 26, Post #513
> 
> 
> And shortly after here you come to say "my YCW WC has it too".
> 
> Page 26, Post #520


Ah, nope. If you look at my post again I was only referring to the cutting/inclusion/exclusion/gate punch, nothing about the elbow there.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Ah, nope. If you look at my post again I was only referring to the cutting/inclusion/exclusion/gate punch, nothing about the elbow there.



The conversation was all about the elbow, with the punch as an example. Nothing about the elbow was retroactively applied to your post as you falsely claim. 

You willingly joined the conversation and then complained when we said your thing doesn't show YMVT elbow ideas. And again, if you don't care, why join?


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Not that you are aware of, because your system lacks the elbow focus.


As you view it, probably. But then again, you know nothing about YCWWC so I can't see how you could possibly comment on it, or why you would even care to.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> As you view it, probably. But then again, you know nothing about YCWWC so I can't see how you could possibly comment on it, or why you would even care to.



I wouldn't care to, but you injected yourself into the conversation, and now complain about being in a conversation you don't care about.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> The conversation was all about the elbow, with the punch as an example. Nothing about the elbow was retroactively applied to your post as you falsely claim.
> 
> You willingly joined the conversation and then complained when we said your thing doesn't show YMVT elbow ideas. And again, if you don't care, why join?


Not true, I never complained because I never made any claims to YMVT "elbow ideas", we've already discussed that. But if it makes you feel better and somehow believe you won something, good for you.

I can't understand why you so adamantly want to continue this discussion. If you are not going to discuss your "elbow ideas" we've nothing to talk about. I've answered every question put to me in detail, and you still refuse to answer the one question I asked of you.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> I wouldn't care to, but you injected yourself into the conversation, and now complain about being in a conversation you don't care about.


And yet you continue to drag me back into the conversation. If I'm not mistaken you asked me to come here. Here I am.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I've answered every question put to me in detail



Except how your thing is supposed to work from inside gate without changing anything.



Nobody Important said:


> And yet you continue to drag me back into the conversation. If I'm not mistaken you asked me to come here. Here I am.



To discuss the elbow in your gate punch. It seems only to drive the punch following the wrist along an outside line. Do this on the inside gate or "from underneath" and you'll be hit.


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## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Except how your thing is supposed to work from inside gate without changing anything.
> 
> 
> 
> To discuss the elbow in your gate punch. It seems only to drive the punch following the wrist along an outside line. Do this on the inside gate or "from underneath" and you'll be hit.


I did answer (apparently you weren't paying attention), both require a pivot, do it right and his punch will miss you completely. We don't stand square shoulder to the opponent, that's dumb, its a good way to get overpowered by bigger opponents. Over or under his forearm is determined by the height (low level, mid level, high level) of his punch. And, once again for the record, you don't actively seek to do it like in those videos you shared. You do not chase the incoming arm, the elbow doesn't wander, its something you let happen naturally when you punch correctly.

You gonna answer now? Or continue to seek further explanation of the gate punch? Cause I gotta tell ya, its getting to the point where you may want to consider formally asking me to be your teacher if this is to continue.


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## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> you may want to consider formally asking me to be your teacher if this is to continue.



To learn something that will not work?

If the elbow is down to cut the line from above, when the opponent's punch is above yours, you won't be cutting anything. 

You might do your pivot to dodge thing to avoid getting hit, if you're faster than his punch, which if he's already over your arm is not likely to happen.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> To learn something that will not work?
> 
> If the elbow is down to cut the line from above, when the opponent's punch is above yours, you won't be cutting anything.
> 
> You might do your pivot to dodge thing to avoid getting hit, if you're faster than his punch, which if he's already over your arm is not likely to happen.


Elbow down doesn't mean punching down. You clearly don't grasp the concept grasshopper, I'll give you a hint - Three Arrow Punches. Don't come back till you understand what these are. This is clearly something you need to figure out on your own.


----------



## dudewingchun

Why dont any of you just grab a sparring partner and video it? Just pages of the same arguments everytime i come back here


----------



## Nobody Important

dudewingchun said:


> Why dont any of you just grab a sparring partner and video it? Just pages of the same arguments everytime i come back here


You're welcome.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Elbow down doesn't mean punching down. You clearly don't grasp the concept grasshopper, I'll give you a hint - Three Arrow Punches. Don't come back till you understand what these are. This is clearly something you need to figure out on your own.



I am aware of the idea. Pivot and sink on the outside. Pivot and rise on the inside.

Sink and rise are workarounds for missing elbow ideas.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> I am aware of the idea. Pivot and sink on the outside. Pivot and rise on the inside.
> 
> Sink and rise are workarounds for missing elbow ideas.


Did I ever mention sink? What you're describing is bobbing & weaving, not gate punching. Care to explain your elbow ideas now?


----------



## Nobody Important

It's really the simplest thing. The fact you can't figure it out is priceless. Reminds me of your Man Sau - Wu Sau conundrum.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Did I ever mention sink? What you're describing is bobbing & weaving, not gate punching. Care to explain your elbow ideas now?



Not bobbing and weaving. Is _Saam-jin-cheui_ not training sinking and rising?


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Not bobbing and weaving. Is _Saam-jin-cheui_ not training sinking and rising?


No, I believe you're thinking of something different like the YM arrow punching exercise. That's not it. Maybe KPM could help you out, if you ask him. I believe it's an exercise found in Pin Sun. If not it's one of the Baat Sik Dan Da of some mainland WC schools.


----------



## LFJ

I know of it as a set from Pin Sun. KPM has mentioned it before, with sinking and rising ideas.

So you're talking about a rising punch on the inside, which is not gonna be the same as on the outside like you said.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> KPM then presented his punch as an example, but it also doesn't use YMVT elbow. Then you came along talking about a gate punch and got upset when we said it doesn't show YMVT elbow either.
> 
> .



I will point out that I then asked why you think the elbow wasn't not involved in the punch I showed on that video and how you would do it differently in WSLVT.  Those questions were ignored.   When we asked that Guy provide a video showing PB doing it the "right way", that request was refused.   So why should anyone try to carry on any kind of productive discussion with either you or Guy???


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> I will point out that I then asked why you think the elbow wasn't not involved in the punch I showed on that video and how you would do it differently in WSLVT.  Those questions were ignored.   When we asked that Guy provide a video showing PB doing it the "right way", that request was refused.   So why should anyone try to carry on any kind of productive discussion with either you or Guy???



I said because the elbow is following the wrist. It is wrist-led.

I don't do a punch like that. NI says he saw PB do it, but won't post the clip so we can talk about it.


----------



## KPM

Nobody Important said:


> You're fixating on application, I've explained it in detail several times, reread my posts. Stop comparing it to videos of people chasing an incoming punch, I've told you it isn't done like that. There is no arm chasing. If you don't do it, stop trying to compare it with what you do. Why bother trying to constantly compare what others do based on material you say you don't have? It doesn't make sense.You say I have no business in this "elbow idea" conversation yet you continue to hound me with questions about my gate punch. I've laid it out plainly, I can't be any clearer. Figure it out for yourself, it won't help you to have me walk you through it. That should be familiar to you.



THIS!!!!  Once again NI nails it!  You and Guy are so hypocritical in the way you post!   You ask repeated questions of others but avoid answering questions to you.   You repeatedly ask for video from others and refuse to provide it when asked of you.  You question why others outside of YMWCK are participating in a conversation and yet ask pointed questions of those people that keep them in the conversation.  You make comments without much detail and don't elaborate, and yet hound others for details about what they have posted.  You say someone hasn't explained something or posted something when they clearly have.  You seem unable to participate in a friendly discussion topic without pushing your agenda every single time.  Again, why should anyone even attempt to have a productive conversation with either of you?


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> I know of it as a set from Pin Sun. KPM has mentioned it before, with sinking and rising ideas.
> 
> So you're talking about a rising punch on the inside, which is not gonna be the same as on the outside like you said.


Then it's not the same, it contains no sinking or rising.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> Led by the wrist means directed by the wrist.
> 
> The elbow is following your wrist. So, wrist-led.



I'll ask again....how do you do a punch without the wrist being in front of the elbow????


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> I'll ask again....how do you do a punch without the wrist being in front of the elbow????



I don't.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> It was always about the elbow idea being "universal" and you knew it.
> 
> Page 26, Post #504
> 
> 
> Page 26, Post #513
> 
> 
> And shortly after here you come to say "my YCW WC has it too".
> 
> Page 26, Post #520




Its just pretty amazing to me that you have the time to shift through pages and pages of discussion in the forum and pull up specific references, but you don't have the time to look for a clip of PB (out of many many available) that illustrates the difference between what you do and what we have been talking about.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Then it's not the same, it contains no sinking or rising.



You're not talking about a rising punch? It's the same as on the outside?

So, keeping your elbow low and punching straight while the opponent's punch is above yours will get you hit unless you are quick enough to dodge, which by that time is unlikely.


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> Its just pretty amazing to me that you have the time to shift through pages and pages of discussion in the forum and pull up specific references, but you don't have the time to look for a clip of PB (out of many many available) that illustrates the difference between what you do and what we have been talking about.



NI is the one saying PB punches like that but won't post the clip. I don't know what you want me to look for.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> I know of it as a set from Pin Sun. KPM has mentioned it before, with sinking and rising ideas.
> .



There is more to it than that!


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> You're not talking about a rising punch? It's the same as on the outside?
> 
> So, keeping your elbow low and punching straight while the opponent's punch is above yours will get you hit unless you are quick enough to dodge, which by that time is unlikely.


What the hell are you talking about? Quit making crap up about gate punching that isn't part of it. It has been explained clearly several times. It isn't a difficult concept. Maybe if you we're punching with your wrist in front of your elbow, like it's supposed to be, you'd get it.


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> There is more to it than that!



I'm sure there is, but I don't care. We're just talking about the elbow.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> I'm sure there is, but I don't care. We're just talking about the elbow.



No, you aren't talking about anything.  You are badgering someone else so they will talk.  There is a difference.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Quit making crap up about gate punching that isn't part of it. It has been explained clearly several times. It isn't a difficult concept. Maybe if you we're punching with your wrist in front of your elbow, like it's supposed to be, you'd get it.



You haven't explained the inside gate punch at all. You've alluded to an exercise that trains a rising punch, but won't own it.

If the elbow does as you've explained for the outside while on the inside or from underneath, even with your pivot, it will not be cutting anything.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> NI is the one saying PB punches like that but won't post the clip. I don't know what you want me to look for.


You said you we're familiar with the concept of the "cutting punch". If you are then you should be able to provide evidence of how it is done in your branch. Do we have to revisit the comments on the James Yim Lee photos and how Bruce Lee acquired gate punching from WSL?


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> You haven't explained the inside gate punch at all. You've alluded to an exercise that trains a rising punch, but won't own it.
> 
> If the elbow does as you've explained for the outside while on the inside or from underneath, even with your pivot, it will not be cutting anything.


The inside gate punch isn't any different than the outer gate punch, one above & one below based on height of opponents strike. If it's too high why would you rise to chase it? I already stated numerous times you don't chase the arm.

Wow, 3 Arrows have nothing to do with rising & sinking. It's a series of straight punches thrown at high, medium & low level.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> You said you we're familiar with the concept of the "cutting punch".



Meaning the "excluding/including" or "whipping" punches that were brought up. They are not part of WSLVT.


----------



## KPM

Nobody Important said:


> Wow, it has nothing to do with rising & sinking. It's a series of straight punches thrown at high, medium & low level.



Don't tell him!  Let him continue to assume he knows what everyone else does.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Wow, it has nothing to do with rising & sinking. It's a series of straight punches thrown at high, medium & low level.



So, how do you throw a high punch without raising your arm?


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> The inside gate punch isn't any different than the outer gate punch, one above & one below based on height of opponents strike. If it's too high why would you rise to chase it? I already stated numerous times you don't chase the arm.



Then there is no _lin-siu-daai-da_ happening if you're just dodging and punching under the guy's arm.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> So, how do you throw a high punch without raising your arm?


How do you throw a punch at someone's face? The head is the high level, chest middle and abdomen lower.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Then there is no _lin-siu-daai-da_ happening if you're just dodging and punching under the guy's arm.


Again, no bobbing & weaving & no arm chasing. The fact you can't grasp this is priceless.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> So, how do you throw a high punch without raising your arm?


How do you throw a punch elbow first? Sounds like some Jerry's Kids punching.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> Meaning the "excluding/including" or "whipping" punches that were brought up. They are not part of WSLVT.



Ok.  Let me explain it again since your are so damn obtuse that you can't seem to follow a logical progression in a conversation.

1.  You mentioned the use of the elbow in Ip Man Wing Chun branches.
2.   I agreed with you that the elbow idea was not as central to other Ip Man lineages and other versions of Wing Chun as it appeared to be to WSLVT from your explanations, that is wasn't "universal".
3.   I provided a caveat though and said that I thought the one area that most Wing Chun had (even outside of Ip Man lineages) that used a similar if not the same kind of elbow idea was when doing a "cutting" or "excluding" punch.  
4.  I explained how the punch was performed and how it used the elbow.  But that wasn't good enough.  So you remembered my video example (which I appreciate) and posted it.  I once again explained what was happening in the video, but for some reason you still didn't think the elbow was being used.   You never really explained why.  You never really described how WSLVT would do it differently.  And it seemed rather silly that after I described my understanding of how the elbow was being used and you can clearly see me doing what I explained in the video.....you could still deny that there was any elbow used.  
5.  Nobody Important joined the conversation by saying that his version of Wing Chun also did what I showed in my video....backing up my assertion that this way of punch is indeed found in many different Wing Chun versions.
6.  You then proceeded to hound NI about details of what he was saying in an attempt to prove him wrong.
7.  On the other thread you act clueless when I comment on the punch I had been talking about by saying "what punch?".....after you had created this entire thread with that punch as the title!!! 
8.  That thread had drifted off to other conversations about elbows and other versions of Wing Chun, etc.  But the exchanges that you and I and Nobody Important were having were directly related to the punch I showed in my video. 
9.  I will state again as I have stated in the past.....if you would simply explain how what you do is different from everyone else in a non-confrontational and friendly way rather than being so darn evasive, refusing to answer questions....refusing to elaborate....and baiting others to get responses......these threads would be SO much more productive!!!!


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> How do you throw a punch at someone's face? The head is the high level, chest middle and abdomen lower.



Right, so, when an opponent's arm is above yours, and you want to punch them in the face, does your elbow not rise to wedge them out?

Quite like what's shown in the videos at the start of this thread, but understood not to be chasing the arm.



Nobody Important said:


> How do you throw a punch elbow first? Sounds like some Jerry's Kids punching.



I don't. Where are you getting this idea?


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> for some reason you still didn't think the elbow was being used. You never really explained why.



I did explain. It's because your elbow is following your wrist along an outside line to the target. You're using your elbow to drive the punch perhaps, but I repeatedly stated that I wasn't talking about elbow force.



> if you would simply explain how what you do is different from everyone else



Excluding or whipping punches aren't a part of what I do.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Right, so, when an opponent's arm is above yours, and you want to punch them in the face, does your elbow not rise to wedge them out?
> 
> Quite like what's shown in the videos at the start of this thread, but understood not to be chasing the arm.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't. Where are you getting this idea?


Do you have Biu Sau? If so, outside of hand formation, is it performed any differently than a straight punch? If not can you use Biu Sau under  the opponents arm? If so, in generic definition it is inside the gate.

There is no rise of the elbow. The entire arm is projected to the high level (head). Forward pressure, wrist at highest point shoulder lowest on line of attack. All 3 joints move in unison & do not wander (flare) from line of attack. No sinking, no rising, bobbing or weaving. Angle of arm & a simple pivot away from incoming force creates the wedge that drives his arm upward.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> We train elbow control in SNT. It never flares like this.



Okay, so one thing it _isn't_ is "flaring". So what _is_ it?


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Comparison of what? KPM was the only one talking about any particular technique.
> 
> You haven't explained how your gate punch is supposed to work without change from the inside gate. The guys in the first couple videos here have to raise their arms up to continue wedging the opponent's arm out. You said yours doesn't change.
> 
> You also said it can be done with other punches besides a straight. Like what, a hook, an uppercut, an overhand? It's really unclear what you're talking about.
> 
> I don't do what you and KPM have shown/described, so I don't know what you want from me.



What he said is that this isn't a constructed effect. They don't "do it" it happens as a result of the punch. If the punch wouldn't intercept properly, they still punch, I presume, and do something else to control the attack. 


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> There is no rise of the elbow. The entire arm is projected to the high level (head). Forward pressure, wrist at highest point shoulder lowest on line of attack.



So, your elbow is above your shoulder, but doesn't rise to get there. You must have a very strange guard.



> All 3 joints move in unison & do not wander from line of attack. No sinking, no rising, bobbing or weaving, just a simple pivot away from incoming force.



Like 1:10 here? The elbow is clearly rising, isn't it?


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> I don't. Where are you getting this idea?



Again, another example of being evasive and not answering questions.  And an example of being somewhat obtuse.  You know very well where he got that idea because it has been commented upon several times now.  But you have never explained yourself.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Led by the wrist means directed by the wrist.
> 
> The elbow is following your wrist. So, wrist-led.



So, you have a punch that is led by the elbow? That's called an elbow strike, not a punch.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> So, you have a punch that is led by the elbow? That's called an elbow strike, not a punch.



Why would you think something so stupid?


----------



## KPM

gpseymour said:


> What he said is that this isn't a constructed effect. They don't "do it" it happens as a result of the punch. If the punch wouldn't intercept properly, they still punch, I presume, and do something else to control the attack.
> 
> 
> Gerry Seymour
> Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido



Funny how a guy that knows nothing about Wing Chun can follow what has been said, but someone that claims to be an expert can't!


----------



## LFJ

KPM said:


> Funny how a guy that knows nothing about Wing Chun can follow what has been said, but someone that claims to be an expert can't!



I have no problem understanding how it's supposed to be automatic.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Why would you think something so stupid?



From your own silly comment that a punch led by the wrist (by definition, every punch) lacks these vague and oh-so-vital "elbow ideas".


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido


----------



## guy b

gpseymour said:


> From your own silly comment that a punch led by the wrist (by definition, every punch) lacks these vague and oh-so-vital "elbow ideas".
> 
> 
> Gerry Seymour
> Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido



Think again


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> So, your elbow is above your shoulder, but doesn't rise to get there. You must have a very strange guard.
> 
> 
> 
> Like 1:10 here? The elbow is clearly rising, isn't it?


You're desperation to prove yourself "correct" through weak attempts at childish gotcha moments is ridiculous.

If the arm isn't at an angle capable of wedging the opponents arm up as forward pressure is applied it wouldn't work. It is the entire arm, not just the elbow. The line of attack is straight from shoulder to target.

And don't go telling me that you don't raise the arm in the same manner in WSL VT, because It can clearly be seen in any PB clip. You wouldn't be able to punch a taller person in the face without doing so.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

KPM said:


> Funny how a guy that knows nothing about Wing Chun can follow what has been said, but someone that claims to be an expert can't!



This is a concept I teach in NGA. Many standing-grappling arts get flack about the complexity of techniques because people think we construct them. We don't. We defend with basic moves and follow those up with something that fits where the force is moving and the body positions. Same concept here, as I see it. NI punches, and uses a structure that has the potential to exclude/cut an incoming punch. If it does, it is now called a "gate punch". If it doesn't, well that wasn't the primary purpose of that punch, to begin with, just a secondary effect. 


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> If the arm isn't at an angle capable of wedging the opponents arm up as forward pressure is applied it wouldn't work. It is the entire arm, not just the elbow. The line of attack is straight from shoulder to target.



So, you're now saying you do in fact raise the elbow as part of the whole arm rising...

Why did you deny it earlier?


----------



## Nobody Important

gpseymour said:


> This is a concept I teach in NGA. Many standing-grappling arts get flack about the complexity of techniques because people think we construct them. We don't. We defend with basic moves and follow those up with something that fits where the force is moving and the body positions. Same concept here, as I see it. NI punches, and uses a structure that has the potential to exclude/cut an incoming punch. If it does, it is now called a "gate punch". If it doesn't, well that wasn't the primary purpose of that punch, to begin with, just a secondary effect.
> 
> 
> Gerry Seymour
> Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido


Ding, ding, ding we have a winner.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> NI punches, and uses a structure that has the potential to exclude/cut an incoming punch.



And it requires a pivot and rising elbow while on the inside in order to work. It's a workaround.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> So, you're now saying you do in fact raise the elbow as part of the whole arm rising...
> 
> Why did you deny it earlier?


I denied flaring the elbow. I denied deliberately trying to accomplish a gate punch. You and I clearly have different ideas about raising an elbow. I view the movement as one coordinated movement of three joints. You are fixated on the elbow. It is physically impossible to strike high without the elbow being inline with the wrist and shoulder. It is a hinge joint and lifts when extended.

All this back & forth could be cleared up if you would simply answer the question, What is your "elbow ideas".


----------



## guy b

LFJ said:


> And it requires a pivot and rising elbow while on the inside in order to work. It's a workaround.



And not lsdd


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> And it requires a pivot and rising elbow while on the inside in order to work. It's a workaround.


Call it whatever you want. I don't see how you can call it a work around if you utilize a Biu Sau in any manner. It would be the exact same move. Seems to me you're just bitter, though I can't image over what.


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> All this back & forth could be cleared up if you would simply answer the question, What is your "elbow ideas".



The reason would be so that you aren't able to just claim them as your own, as you have done many times before. This is why it is useful to talk things through to get a clear idea of where others stand before revealing details. 

Being evasive and dishonest doesn't help speed this process.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> You and I clearly have different ideas about raising an elbow. I view the movement as one coordinated movement of three joints.



You either raise it or you don't.



> You are fixated on the elbow.



The discussion has always been about the elbow.



> It is physically impossible to strike high without the elbow being inline with the wrist and shoulder. It is a hinge joint and lifts when extended.



You need to revisit SNT.


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> And not lsdd


If it strikes the opponent and effectively negates his strike in the process, how is it not lsdd?


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Call it whatever you want. I don't see how you can call it a work around if you utilize a Biu Sau in any manner. It would be the exact same move. Seems to me you're just bitter, though I can't image over what.



_Biu-sau _is not used as a basic punching idea_._


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> The reason would be so that you aren't able to just claim them as your own, as you have done many times before. This is why it is useful to talk things through to get a clear idea of where others stand before revealing details.
> 
> Being evasive and dishonest doesn't help speed this process.


Bahahahaha!!!! That's rich. Neither one of you has answered one question, yet you feel entitled to the milk of everyone else's cow. You're welcome.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> _Biu-sau _is not used as a basic punching idea_._


Outside of hand position is it any different than a punch?


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> You either raise it or you don't.
> 
> 
> 
> The discussion has always been about the elbow.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to revisit SNT.


OK if you say so grasshopper. Not my fault you convolute and can't comprehend the simplest of things.


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> Bahahahaha!!!! That's rich. Neither one of you has answered one question, yet you feel entitled to the milk of everyone else's cow. You're welcome.



Many questions have been answered over a long period of time. The drift of answers in light of this new info is very revealing in terms of what others actually know


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> If it strikes the opponent and effectively negates his strike in the process, how is it not lsdd?



Lsdd is not hand chasing


----------



## guy b

LFJ said:


> You need to revisit SNT.



This is absolutely the issue. The understanding is missing


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Outside of hand position is it any different than a punch?



Not yours, apparently. You are neither confirming nor denying this is your punch at 1:10?


----------



## Nobody Important

Looks to me like the elbow is rising on every strike, exactly as I explained. Tell me, how is it wrong again?


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Not yours, apparently. You are neither confirming nor denying this is your punch at 1:10?


Didn't watch it.  I presented another example instead.


----------



## KPM

guy b said:


> The reason would be so that you aren't able to just claim them as your own, as you have done many times before. This is why it is useful to talk things through to get a clear idea of where others stand before revealing details.
> 
> Being evasive and dishonest doesn't help speed this process.



Again, utter and total BS!  You are so full of it that it isn't even entertaining anymore!


----------



## KPM

guy b said:


> Lsdd is not hand chasing



And again....you didn't answer his question.


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> Lsdd is not hand chasing


Never said it was, I also said that you don't intentionally try to perform a gate punch several times. Pay attention.


----------



## Nobody Important

In case you missed it the first time. His elbow comes up on every strike just as I described. Impossible for it not to. Now unless WSL is doing it wrong, I think perhaps you two should revisit SNT. 

Care to explain these "elbow ideas" now? Because I'm not picking up what your pretending is lacking with everyone else in this video.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Looks to me like the elbow is rising on every strike, exactly as I explained. Tell me, how is it wrong again?



What exactly are you calling a strike in the form?

And why are you afraid of having your gate punch pinned down? Are you not confident about it?


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> What exactly are you calling a strike in the form?
> 
> And why are you afraid of having your gate punch pinned down? Are you not confident about it?


Quit with the strawman tactics. You know damn we'll there are punches & palm strikes in the form. 

I've clearly explained the gate punch, not doing it again.

Why are you afraid to admit his elbow comes up?

Why won't you explain the "elbow ideas"?


----------



## Nobody Important

It's evident that you aren't going to or simply can't. So I'm putting an end to this farce of a "conversation", I hope you got some useful information. Good day.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I've clearly explained the gate punch, not doing it again.



Just asking for confirmation so we aren't talking past each other.



> Why are you afraid to admit his elbow comes up?
> 
> Why won't you explain the "elbow ideas"?



The sections training the elbow for punching are not obvious and his elbow doesn't come up.


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> Looks to me like the elbow is rising on every strike, exactly as I explained. Tell me, how is it wrong again?



Elbow not rising. Be aware that this video contains intentional errors, if you are seeking to learn from it


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> Why won't you explain the "elbow ideas"?



This is because, given past form, you will claim that you also do it that way. Far more instructive to find out what you would actually do first


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> Never said it was, I also said that you don't intentionally try to perform a gate punch several times.



If you are rotating or rising in order to make contact, then hand chasing, not LSDD

LSDD not reliant upon work arounds, works always


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> Elbow not rising. Be aware that this video contains intentional errors, if you are seeking to learn from it


Bull, there aren't any intentional errors, keep telling yourself that fairytale so you can continue to be obtuse. The elbow rises on every punch & palm strike just as I described. It is physically impossible for it not to. A punch is an extension of the arm, the elbow is a hinge joint that opens upward on a straight punch. Continue to deny it all you want it only makes you look even more ignorant.The more I engage with you buffoons, the more apparent it becomes how little you actually know. I am now placing you both on ignore. I've better things to do with my time than give scraps to entitled wannabe's.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> A punch is an extension of the arm, the elbow is a hinge joint that opens upward on a straight punch.



That's how you punch, popping the elbow up. Problem is because you don't even know why VT uses a vertical fist.


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> Bull, there aren't any intentional errors, keep telling yourself that fairytale so you can continue to be obtuse.



I think that people copying WSL's public videos is a big part of the problem. He was careful to guard the method.

That video for example contains a couple of glaring errors. You will not see these in a 1 to 1 situation. That you don't recognise them explains a lot of your anger and frustration, and your inability when it comes to making the system work



> The elbow rises on every punch & palm strike just as I described. It is physically impossible for it not to. A punch is an extension of the arm, the elbow is a hinge joint that opens upward on a straight punch.



The elbow doesn't rise in the relevant parts of that clip. I guess you are looking in the wrong place?



> Continue to deny it all you want it only makes you look even more ignorant.The more I engage with you buffoons, the more apparent it becomes how little you actually know. I am now placing you both on ignore. I've better things to do with my time than give scraps to entitled wannabe's.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Shoulder firmly in socket, elbow down and *vertical fist to align radius and ulna*, body rotation as needed to create angle for natural wedge.





Nobody Important said:


> I don't see how you can call it a work around if you utilize a *Biu Sau* in any manner. It *would be the exact same move*.



_Biu-sau_ has the palm down. Why not punch with a horizontal fist then? What makes you use a vertical fist?


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> The elbow rises on every punch & palm strike just as I described. It is physically impossible for it not to


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b said:


> Think again


Do I need to quote the actual post I referenced?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> And it requires a pivot and rising elbow while on the inside in order to work. It's a workaround.


As has been clearly shown, hitting high requires the elbow to rise. In fact, I challenge you to show me a punch where the elbow stays in and doesn't ever rise. Can't happen unless you're punching down.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b said:


> The reason would be so that you aren't able to just claim them as your own, as you have done many times before. This is why it is useful to talk things through to get a clear idea of where others stand before revealing details.
> 
> Being evasive and dishonest doesn't help speed this process.


No, trying to get others to explain their ideas in your terms doesn't get clarity. You asked about elbows. They responded, and you basically said, "That's not what I'm talking about." Then you ask them to show you an example of something in their system that IS what you're talking about...but you still haven't told them what you're talking about.

Show me something in WSLVT that incorporates "striking in the void."


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> _Biu-sau _is not used as a basic punching idea *in our system*_._



I fixed that for you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b said:


> Lsdd is not hand chasing


And how, precisely, is punching someone (when it happens to intersect their punch) "hand chasing"? They aren't adjusting their punch to intersect the incoming attack - they stay on their own line. They simply practice a variety of punch that makes the intersection more likely.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> As has been clearly shown, hitting high requires the elbow to rise.



Why do you think the elbow has to pop up?



gpseymour said:


> I fixed that for you.



Is _biu-sau_ a punch in your Aikido system?


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> And how, precisely, is punching someone (when it happens to intersect their punch) "hand chasing"? They aren't adjusting their punch to intersect the incoming attack - they stay on their own line. They simply practice a variety of punch that makes the intersection more likely.



They have to pivot and either sink or raise their elbow to wedge out the incoming line above or below their arm. That's a lot of deliberate work in response to a punch. It may be a direct punch, but it has to change in response to the incoming line or it won't intersect it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Nobody Important said:


> Bull, there aren't any intentional errors, keep telling yourself that fairytale so you can continue to be obtuse. The elbow rises on every punch & palm strike just as I described. It is physically impossible for it not to. A punch is an extension of the arm, the elbow is a hinge joint that opens upward on a straight punch. Continue to deny it all you want it only makes you look even more ignorant.The more I engage with you buffoons, the more apparent it becomes how little you actually know. I am now placing you both on ignore. I've better things to do with my time than give scraps to entitled wannabe's.


I think I've got it. The intentional error is that the elbow is kept in. They must punch with the elbow flared out to the side at 90 degrees. From there, it need not rise. That fits their answers and descriptions, and is the only thing I can imagine for the human body that does.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> That's how you punch, popping the elbow up. Problem is because you don't even know why VT uses a vertical fist.


Nobody said anything about "popping". Humans punch by extending the arm, which (unless they wing the arm out) causes the elbow to rise. It's the mechanics of the arm, and not a secret principle, flaw, or decision.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Why do you think the elbow has to pop up?



Why do you think your arm doesn't hinge?



> Is _biu-sau_ a punch in your Aikido system?


I haven't referenced my system, now have I?


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> Nobody said anything about "popping". Humans punch by extending the arm, which (unless they wing the arm out) causes the elbow to rise. It's the mechanics of the arm, and not a secret principle, flaw, or decision.



Fair to say you have not learned every way to punch. I would suggest you revisit SNT, but you don't even train Wing Chun...


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Fair to say you have not learned every way to punch. I would suggest you revisit SNT, but you don't even train Wing Chun...


Fair to say you are describing a physical impossibility. I would suggest you revisit anatomy and kinesiology, but you don't seem to care for them.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> Why do you think your arm doesn't hinge?



Why do you think I think that?



> I haven't referenced my system, now have I?



So, you're speaking on behalf of particular branches of a MA you don't even train.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Why do you think I think that?


Because you've claimed your elbow stays on the same horizontal plane (never rising) during a punch.



> So, you're speaking on behalf of particular branches of a MA you don't even train.


Nope, just making it clear you're trying to make claims about others' that you don't train in. It's fair for you to make a statement about what biu sau is and is not within the system you train. Making statements beyond that is claiming to be an expert on others' systems. Hence the correction. I'd guess you're correct that biu sau is not used in punching concepts within your training, and I'd make no value judgment on whether that's a good or bad thing - it's just a thing. Others (even within the same lineage) may actually use biu sau as part of the conceptual teaching of punches, and if it works and creates useful results, then good on them.


----------



## guy b

gpseymour said:


> Nobody said anything about "popping". Humans punch by extending the arm, which (unless they wing the arm out) causes the elbow to rise. It's the mechanics of the arm, and not a secret principle, flaw, or decision.



In VT the elbow does not rise


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> Because you've claimed your elbow stays on the same horizontal plane (never rising) during a punch.



And?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b said:


> In VT the elbow does not rise


Simply not mechanically possible with an arm. Show me a single video of an actual punch where the elbow stays on the same horizontal plane, without it being winged out to the side, without it being a false punch (no arm movement involved at all), and without it being a downward punch.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> And?


And the arm doesn't work that way. If your arm is bent with the elbow down, and you extend it anywhere except straight down, the elbow will move upward from the horizontal plane it started on.


----------



## guy b

gpseymour said:


> Simply not mechanically possible with an arm. Show me a single video of an actual punch where the elbow stays on the same horizontal plane, without it being winged out to the side, without it being a false punch (no arm movement involved at all), and without it being a downward punch.



Suggest you try VT


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> And the arm doesn't work that way. If your arm is bent with the elbow down, and you extend it anywhere except straight down, the elbow will move upward from the horizontal plane it started on.



If I punch forward, the elbow moves forward and stays down.


----------



## guy b

gpseymour said:


> I'd guess you're correct that biu sau is not used in punching concepts within your training, and I'd make no value judgment on whether that's a good or bad thing - it's just a thing. Others (even within the same lineage) may actually use biu sau as part of the conceptual teaching of punches, and if it works and creates useful results, then good on them.



Others within the same system may not use biu sau to teach a punching idea because to do so would be nonsensical. I guess they could go insane and do it, or fail to understand the system and do it, but that's about all. Certainly no value in it.


----------



## guy b

LFJ said:


> If I punch forward, the elbow moves forward and stays down.



Yes, elbow does not rise


----------



## LFJ

guy b said:


> Others within the same system may not use biu sau to teach a punching idea because to do so would be nonsensical. I guess they could go insane and do it, or fail to understand the system and do it, but that's about all. Certainly no value in it.



Nobody Important said his punch has a "_vertical fist to align radius and ulna_" and then that _biu-sau_ would be the exact same thing... but _biu-sau_ is palm down, which would be a horizontal fist. So, he seems a bit confused.


----------



## guy b

LFJ said:


> Nobody Important said his punch has a "_vertical fist to align radius and ulna_" and then that _biu-sau_ would be the exact same thing... but _biu-sau_ is palm down, which would be a horizontal fist. So, he seems a bit confused.



More than a little confused


----------



## wtxs

LFJ said:


> Right, so, when an opponent's arm is above yours, and you want to punch them in the face, does your elbow not rise to wedge them out?



Since we are so clueless of how to handle what had you outlined, please school us dummies of the correct solution.


----------



## wtxs

guy b said:


> The reason would be so that you aren't able to just claim them as your own, as you have done many times before. This is why it is useful to talk things through to get a clear idea of where others stand before revealing details.
> 
> Being evasive and dishonest doesn't help speed this process.



Why is it important to know where others stands before you revealing details, you made it clear your come to this forum to share ideas.  So why are you holding out ... possible that you knows nothing more then the rest of us?  There is no shame to admitting that we don't have all the answers.

What you had done so far _*IS*_ being evasive and dishonest which does not help the process.


----------



## dudewingchun

Pretty sure Guy B and LFJ dont actually care about WC and just have fun causing drama on this forum lol


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b said:


> Suggest you try VT


Suggest you try a human body. Unless you care to show an actual example that refutes my claim?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> If I punch forward, the elbow moves forward and stays down.


Try this: tie a string to your arm so that it JUST touches the ground when your punch is chambered. Now, extend your punch toward a target at shoulder height. The string will NOT be touching the ground. The elbow does rise. Every time. Every person. Every punch.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b said:


> Others within the same system may not use biu sau to teach a punching idea because to do so would be nonsensical. I guess they could go insane and do it, or fail to understand the system and do it, but that's about all. Certainly no value in it.


Or, they may simply have an idea you don't. It might be better, worse, or just different. You don't get to say whether someone finds a value in using that to teach a concept different than what you've seen it used for.


----------



## wtxs

gpseymour said:


> And the arm doesn't work that way. If your arm is bent with the elbow down, and you extend it anywhere except straight down, the elbow will move upward from the horizontal plane it started on.





LFJ said:


> If I punch forward, the elbow moves forward and stays down.


 
Since you are so adamant about VT elbow do not rise, that leave you only with the horizontal punch?  Because "punch forward" can have multiple up & down angles, so does that mean the elbow will have to raise with all other types of punch?


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Nobody Important said his punch has a "_vertical fist to align radius and ulna_" and then that _biu-sau_ would be the exact same thing... but _biu-sau_ is palm down, which would be a horizontal fist. So, he seems a bit confused.


The inner gate punch uses the same principle as Biu Sau. Gate punching isn't about a particular technique its a concept. If you perform the action correctly the elbow doesn't move much from vertical fist to Biu, the action is mostly wrist. Alignment of radius & ulna is about impact strength. Of course I would'nt expect a novice to know such things.


----------



## wtxs

Nobody Important said:


> The inner gate punch uses the same principle as Biu Sau. Gate punching isn't about a particular technique its a concept. If you perform the action correctly the elbow doesn't move much from vertical fist to Biu, the action is mostly wrist. Alignment of radius & ulna is about impact strength. _*Of course I would'nt expect a novice to know such things*_.



Because grasshopper is concentrating only on the finger which is pointing to the moon ... totally missed the heavenly glory.


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> I think that people copying WSL's public videos is a big part of the problem. He was careful to guard the method.
> 
> That video for example contains a couple of glaring errors. You will not see these in a 1 to 1 situation. That you don't recognise them explains a lot of your anger and frustration, and your inability when it comes to making the system work
> 
> 
> 
> The elbow doesn't rise in the relevant parts of that clip. I guess you are looking in the wrong place?


Ah, the ever so convenient, "It contains intentional errors" card. Played everytime you two get backed into a corner by your own lies.


----------



## Juany118

Nobody Important said:


> Ah, the ever so convenient, "It contains intentional errors" card. Played everytime you two get backed into a corner by your own lies.


It's actually entirely possible that they aren't lying.  They could be doing exactly what PB teaches.  Here is the thing though.  In PB's biography it specifically states that WSL worked hard with PB to modify VT to work with the fact he was missing a hand.  The last time I checked people can only teach what they themselves actually learned and/or practiced.  This could very easily explain more than a couple of the differences with WSLPB-VT and even other WSL students let alone YM VT Lineages in general.

Before the usual suspects hissy fit that I am somehow lying....
Philipp Bayer



> After visits with various teachers, he found, in January 1983, Wong Shun Leung. Sifu Wong accepted the ambitious German than students in the traditional sense. He sat down seriously dealing with the problem of a missing hand and put the training in terms of it.



Now regardless I am sure there will be some rage thing because... well we know that even though this doesn't say WSLPB-VT is bad, that others are better etc. there will still be a nonsensical negative reaction.



Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## anerlich

You get to about page 6 of every thread and they all look the same. Just as well I joined this forum to argue over semantics and minutae.


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> There is no rise of the elbow. The entire arm is projected to the high level (head). Forward pressure, wrist at highest point shoulder lowest on line of attack. All 3 joints move in unison & do not wander (flare) from line of attack. No sinking, no rising, bobbing or weaving. Angle of arm & a simple pivot away from incoming force creates the wedge that drives his arm upward.



This bears no relation to VT. I am confused in the extreme as to how people apparently doing 'wing chun' don't see a problem here. Puzzling.


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> This bears no relation to VT. I am confused in the extreme as to how people apparently doing 'wing chun' don't see a problem here. Puzzling.


Because you don't understand would be my guess.


----------



## Nobody Important

Juany118 said:


> It's actually entirely possible that they aren't lying.  They could be doing exactly what PB teaches.  Here is the thing though.  In PB's biography it specifically states that WSL worked hard with PB to modify VT to work with the fact he was missing a hand.  The last time I checked people can only teach what they themselves actually learned and/or practiced.  This could very easily explain more than a couple of the differences with WSLPB-VT and even other WSL students let alone YM VT Lineages in general.
> 
> Before the usual suspects hissy fit that I am somehow lying....
> Philipp Bayer
> 
> 
> 
> Now regardless I am sure there will be some rage thing because... well we know that even though this doesn't say WSLPB-VT is bad, that others are better etc. there will still be a nonsensical negative reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


No, that's not it. It the argument that it is physically impossible for the elbow not to come up when the arm is extended. It is not humanly possible to extend the arm & have the elbow remain. They insinuate it is. They are wrong, end of discussion.


----------



## Juany118

Nobody Important said:


> Because you don't undetstand would be my guess.


Maybe the fact is missed that if you are average height striking someone in the face of similar height, your wrist will be higher than the shoulder, because well the head is higher than the shoulder, is somehow missed?  Either that or he doesn't think WC takes head shots. /Shrug. 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve

I just want to thank you guys (KPM, LFJ, Guy B. and Nobody Important) for this thread.  It has a slightly subversive feel to it, kind of feels a little like watching quadruplets argue publicly.  Literally any post could have been made by any one of the four of you and no one outside the quadrangle could tell the difference.  It's fun... like watching Jackass, where you know it's painful for you guys, but the schadenfreude is unmistakably gratifying.


----------



## Steve

Nobody Important said:


> No, that's not it. It the argument that it is physically impossible for the elbow not to come up when the arm is extended. It is not humanly possible to extend the arm & have the elbow remain. They insinuate it is. They are wrong, end of discussion.


For what it's worth, I just extended my arm and my elbow didn't come up.  My wrist went down instead.  I don't know jack about punching in WC/VT/VC/WT but your elbow will only rise if your wrist stays on a level plane.


----------



## Nobody Important

Juany118 said:


> Maybe the fact is missed that if you are average height striking someone in the face of similar height, your wrist will be higher than the shoulder, because well the head is higher than the shoulder, is somehow missed?  Either that or he doesn't think WC takes head shots. /Shrug.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


Correct, elbow as well depending on pitch from shoulder to opponents head. Doesn't matter if you punch up or down. To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain. 

At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height and at low level shoulder will be highest and wrist at lowest.


----------



## Nobody Important

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I just extended my arm and my elbow didn't come up.  My wrist went down instead.  I don't know jack about punching in WC/VT/VC/WT but your elbow will only rise if your wrist stays on a level plane.


Please post a quick video and I'll prove you wrong.


----------



## Juany118

Nobody Important said:


> No, that's not it. It the argument that it is physically impossible for the elbow not to come up when the arm is extended. It is not humanly possible to extend the arm & have the elbow remain. They insinuate it is. They are wrong, end of discussion.



Oh I wasn't realizing that was their argument.  So they are actually saying that WSLPB-VT violates basic biomechanical realities such as the elbow moving both vertically and horizontally if you extend your arm in front of you?


----------



## Nobody Important

Juany118 said:


> Oh I wasn't realizing that was their argument.  So they are actually saying that WSLPB-VT violates basic biomechanical realities such as the elbow moving both vertically and horizontally if you extend your arm in front of you?


Apparently


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I just extended my arm and my elbow didn't come up.  My wrist went down instead.  I don't know jack about punching in WC/VT/VC/WT but your elbow will only rise if your wrist stays on a level plane.



Look at the following picture 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





If WSL was to punch straight ahead with either arm his elbow would have to rise.  WC punches with elbow oriented down.  So when you punch, by its nature as a joint, it will rise vertically.  Depending on hand position the wrist my indeed drop, but the nature of the hinge joint that is the elbow means it will either move up (if oriented down) or in if oriented to the outside, when a straight punch is thrown.


----------



## Cephalopod

I think understand what you guys are trying to say:

The elbow moves in an arc around the shoulder, regardless of what the forearm is doing. There's only one bone connecting the two, no joints.
Therefore as the elbow moves forward away from the body it will invariable rise with respect to the shoulder.

However...
If I did want my elbow to travel forward along horizontal plane in space, I could achieve this by shrugging my shoulder downward or sinking at the knees.

For myself, I prefer to use the idea of a sunken elbow as a visualization method to get the desired tracking and force than as a literal spacial exactitude.


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> Correct, elbow as well depending on pitch from shoulder to opponents head. Doesn't matter if you punch up or down. To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain.
> 
> At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height and at low level shoulder will be highest and wrist at lowest.





Okay, you don't do wing chun. I get it. But good trolling, I believed it for a while


----------



## guy b

Juany118 said:


> Oh I wasn't realizing that was their argument.  So they are actually saying that WSLPB-VT violates basic biomechanical realities such as the elbow moving both vertically and horizontally if you extend your arm in front of you?



Please, stop


----------



## Nobody Important

Cephalopod said:


> I think understand what you guys are trying to say:
> 
> The elbow moves in an arc around the shoulder, regardless of what the forearm is doing. There's only one bone connecting the two, no joints.
> Therefore as the elbow moves forward away from the body it will invariable rise with respect to the shoulder.
> 
> However...
> If I did want my elbow to travel forward along horizontal plane in space, I could achieve this by shrugging my shoulder downward or sinking at the knees.
> 
> For myself, I prefer to use the idea of a sunken elbow as a visualization method to get the desired tracking and force than a literal spacial exactitude.


The elbow would still move, like water, it will always seek level with the shoulder when extended. Shrugging, shrinking etc. doesn't matter it has to rise. It is a hinge joint, it can only move in one direction to open.


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> Okay, you don't do wing chun. I get it. But good trolling, I believed it for a while


If I am incorrect, post something to refute my claim.


----------



## guy b

Nobody Important said:


> If I am incorrect, post something to refute my claim.



It's too much, please stop. You got me, I believed you did the obscure Mainland wing chun. But you are into bat$*** crazy territory now, and the game is up


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b said:


> It's too much, please stop. You got me, I believed you did the obscure Mainland wing chun. But you are into bat$*** crazy territory now, and the game is up


Can't do it? If you want to prove me wrong post a video of a straight punch where the elbow remains.


----------



## Juany118

guy b said:


> It's too much, please stop. You got me, I believed you did the obscure Mainland wing chun. But you are into bat$*** crazy territory now, and the game is up



So let me get this straight.  You honestly believe if you punch that as your arms moves forward from a ready position that the elbow does not rise in relation to its physical distance from the ground?  I just want to be 100% sure here.


----------



## Steve

Juany118 said:


> So let me get this straight.  You honestly believe if you punch that as your arms moves forward from a ready position that the elbow does not rise in relation to its physical distance from the ground?  I just want to be 100% sure here.


wouldnt the shoulder have to move forward In order to move the whole arm forward?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I just extended my arm and my elbow didn't come up.  My wrist went down instead.  I don't know jack about punching in WC/VT/VC/WT but your elbow will only rise if your wrist stays on a level plane.


If it's a punch, the elbow will always move toward the line between the shoulder and target. If you punch downward, the elbow need not rise, simply because the line is angled so far down. I've put that to those making the claim, who appear to be making the claim about a level punch, or even one to the head.


----------



## Nobody Important

This is a series of images of WSL taken from a video of him performing SNT.

The top green line shows chin level and the bottom green line shows elbow level. The red line demonstrates the trajectory of the elbow rise when performing the straight punch. It clearly illustrates the elbow moving up.





This second series of images is of PB doing chi sau with someone at a seminar.

The blue line shows his opponents chin level. The top green line shows PBs chin level and the bottom green line shows his elbow level. The red line demonstrates the trajectory of his straight punch, clearly showing the rise of the elbow from starting point to target. The pink dot is the stub of his left hand. This series also shows PB performing an outside gate punch.

According to Guy B. and LFJ the video of WSL performing SNT contains intentional errors, they say that the elbow does not rise. They also say they do not have the gate/inclusion/exclusion/cutting punch. This is in direct conflict with PB performing the same punch during chi sau. Either PB is intentionally doing it wrong, or he never learned to straight punch without raising the elbow.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Juany118 said:


> Oh I wasn't realizing that was their argument.  So they are actually saying that WSLPB-VT violates basic biomechanical realities such as the elbow moving both vertically and horizontally if you extend your arm in front of you?


Yes.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> If it's a punch, the elbow will always move toward the line between the shoulder and target. If you punch downward, the elbow need not rise, simply because the line is angled so far down. I've put that to those making the claim, who appear to be making the claim about a level punch, or even one to the head.


I didn't see anything about a level punch.   People are moving the goalposts on me. And now we're talking about the entire arm moving forward,,,


----------



## Nobody Important

Steve said:


> I didn't see anything about a level punch.   People are moving the goalposts on me. And now we're talking about the entire arm moving forward,,,


Do you not punch moving your arm forward?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Nobody Important said:


> Can't do it? If you want to prove me wrong post a video of a straight punch where the elbow remains.


Two people have asked for a video. They haven't provided one. I actually think they are trolling on this one. They're too obvious.


----------



## Nobody Important

Steve said:


> wouldnt the shoulder have to move forward In order to move the whole arm forward?


Look at the pictures of PB, notice the shoulder movement?


----------



## Nobody Important

gpseymour said:


> Two people have asked for a video. They haven't provided one. I actually think they are trolling on this one. They're too obvious.


Agree


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I didn't see anything about a level punch.   People are moving the goalposts on me. And now we're talking about the entire arm moving forward,,,


We also didn't rule out a completely detached arm, Steve.


----------



## KPM

LFJ said:


> If I punch forward, the elbow moves forward and stays down.



It stays down?   The distance between your elbow and the floor does not change at all during the punch?  Please explain that in more detail.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Simply not mechanically possible with an arm. Show me a single video of an actual punch where the elbow stays on the same horizontal plane, without it being winged out to the side, without it being a false punch (no arm movement involved at all), and without it being a downward punch.



Ok the punch moves downward with the elbow locked in place. think hammer fist. Then you walk forward to get the punch on target.

It is retarded. But doable.


----------



## Nobody Important

Here's a simple experiment. 

Take a piece of string and tie a knot in the center of it (the knot represents your elbow)

Tape one end to the wall (this represents your shoulder)

Holding the free end near the wall, pull the free end to straighten the string (the free end represents your hand)

Do this from any angle you like, notice how the knot will always follow the end being pulled? Your elbow functions in a similar manner.


----------



## KPM

Nobody Important said:


> No, that's not it. It the argument that it is physically impossible for the elbow not to come up when the arm is extended. It is not humanly possible to extend the arm & have the elbow remain. They insinuate it is. They are wrong, end of discussion.



Oh no.  I am sure we will see a disclaimer soon that this isn't at all what they were saying and that we have all misunderstood.  Very typical.  They will let a discussion go on back and forth and down the rabbit hole and then finally say..."well, what I meant was XXXXX."


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Ok the punch moves downward with the elbow locked in place. think hammer fist. Then you walk forward to get the punch on target.
> 
> It is retarded. But doable.


I wouldn't count that a "punch". I did think that movement through, which is why I used the wording I did. I agree, it's retarded.


----------



## Nobody Important

drop bear said:


> Ok the punch moves downward with the elbow locked in place. think hammer fist. Then you walk forward to get the punch on target.
> 
> It is retarded. But doable.


LOL, and the only way possible. Technically the elbow will still rise very slightly with a fully extended hammer fist.


----------



## Nobody Important

KPM said:


> Oh no.  I am sure we will see a disclaimer soon that this isn't at all what they were saying and that we have all misunderstood.  Very typical.  They will let a discussion go on back and forth and down the rabbit hole and then finally say..."well, what I meant was XXXXX."


We'll see


----------



## KPM

Nobody Important.....you have put far too much effort into proving something that they very likely don't disgree with.  This is their standard M.O.   This is how they frustrate everyone and create long and convoluted threads.  In the end they will just refuse to explain or elaborate, or they will end up saying we have misunderstood them all this time (though they made no effort during the discussion to clarify.)


----------



## Nobody Important

KPM said:


> Nobody Important.....you have put far too much effort into proving something that they very likely don't disgree with.  This is their standard M.O.   This is how they frustrate everyone and create long and convoluted threads.  In the end they will just refuse to explain or elaborate, or they will end up saying we have misunderstood them all this time (though they made no effort during the discussion to clarify.)


Oh I know, they always do this to anyone different from them. Its just fun pointing out their inconsistencies and hypocrisies.


----------



## Nobody Important

edit


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> In PB's biography it specifically states that WSL worked hard with PB to modify VT to work with the fact he was missing a hand.



That's not at all what the quote says.

There are others who received the full system from WSL and share the same understanding as PB. You think they all learned a handicapped version of VT? 

Nothing has been changed to the system. He attaches the pole and knife directly to his arm, though. That's a "modification", I suppose. I wouldn't do that.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I am now placing you both on ignore. I've better things to do with my time



Welcome back, Hendrik!

It's amazing you spent so much time diddling with images and still don't notice PB's elbow position at the end of his punch. Has it popped up while lifting the arm like your punch at 1:10 here below? Or has it stayed down?

Your punch pops the elbow up over shoulder height as you pivot and lift your arm from underneath the opponent's punch to wedge them out. PB's punch keeps the elbow low and just punches directly forward.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Welcome back, Hendrik!
> 
> It's amazing you spent so much time diddling with images and still don't notice PB's elbow position at the end of his punch. Has it popped up while lifting the arm like your punch at 1:10 here below? Or has it stayed down?
> 
> Your punch pops the elbow up over shoulder height as you pivot and lift your arm from underneath the opponent's punch to wedge them out. PB's punch keeps the elbow low and just punches directly forward.


So, now you're going to claim that those images don't show PB's elbow changing horizontal planes?


----------



## Steve

Nobody Important said:


> Do you not punch moving your arm forward?


Part of it.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> So, now you're going to claim that those images don't show PB's elbow changing horizontal planes?



The elbow stays low below shoulder and fist and moves forward. At no point does it pop up like NI's punch.


----------



## Steve

drop bear said:


> Ok the punch moves downward with the elbow locked in place. think hammer fist. Then you walk forward to get the punch on target.
> 
> It is retarded. But doable.


Like most beginners, you attacked me wrong.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> wrist at highest point shoulder lowest on line of attack.



This is allowing the elbow to rise, popping up to higher than shoulder level.

VT elbow stays down.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> The elbow stays low below shoulder and fist and moves forward. At no point does it pop up like NI's punch.


That's a different statement than has been made before. 

As for the "popping" in that video, it looks like at least part of that is a visual illusion. The man's shirt sleeve is popping upward in response to the movement of his arm. It can be seen to settle to his slightly bent elbow at the end of most movements.

As for the elbow staying below the shoulder, that's a function of the distance of a punch and the direction. A short punch can nearly always keep the elbow below the shoulder. A punch at shoulder level or lower can nearly always keep the elbow below the shoulder. A punch to a higher target (say the face of a much taller man's) at a distance approaching arm's-length can yield an elbow even with or even above the shoulder without changing the structure of the punch.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Welcome back, Hendrik!


Hey, Thanks Buttercup! If you would quit bad mouthing me when I leave a conversation I wouldn't have to return to it.



LFJ said:


> It's amazing you spent so much time diddling with images and still don't notice PB's elbow position at the end of his punch. Has it popped up while lifting the arm like your punch at 1:10 here below? Or has it stayed down?


You're deflecting, His elbow rose up on the way to its target, just as I said it would, there was no discussion on my part about elbow popping, that's all you.

You can clearly see that the elbow rose off a perpendicular line towards the target just as you said it didn't. The discussion isn't about where the elbow ends. It's about it rising towards the target.



LFJ said:


> Your punch pops the elbow up over shoulder height as you pivot and lift your arm from underneath the opponent's punch to wedge them out. PB's punch keeps the elbow low and just punches directly forward.


No it doesn't, it follows the line of attack. If punching high the wrist will be at the highest point and shoulder at the lowest on the line of attack on an inside gate punch. The more the arm is extended the more the elbow rises.

My punch is straight forward as I described, no different than what presented in the images I posted. This video is your weak attempt to suggest I punch like this fellow with a weird popping elbow, I never said I did and am confirming I do not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> This is allowing the elbow to rise, popping up to higher than shoulder level.
> 
> VT elbow stays down.


So, in VT, you never punch a target higher than your own shoulder, using full punching range?


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> wouldnt the shoulder have to move forward In order to move the whole arm forward?



I am talking about movement in space.  As a ball and socket joint the shoulder really just rotates by however many degrees necessary to extend the arm.  The elbow then, as it straightens (while in the down position) rises in relation to the ground as it moves forward.  Now in terms of the philosophy or instruction you can of course explain the elbow moving forward and/or the shoulder as well but that isn't what I thought was being discussed.

In order to allow people to create an actual film in their mind the actual physical path of a particular punch was described, as I understand it.


----------



## Nobody Important

gpseymour said:


> That's a different statement than has been made before.
> 
> As for the "popping" in that video, it looks like at least part of that is a visual illusion. The man's shirt sleeve is popping upward in response to the movement of his arm. It can be seen to settle to his slightly bent elbow at the end of most movements.
> 
> As for the elbow staying below the shoulder, that's a function of the distance of a punch and the direction. A short punch can nearly always keep the elbow below the shoulder. A punch at shoulder level or lower can nearly always keep the elbow below the shoulder. A punch to a higher target (say the face of a much taller man's) at a distance approaching arm's-length can yield an elbow even with or even above the shoulder without changing the structure of the punch.


He doesn't understand that I'm guessing.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> As for the elbow staying below the shoulder, that's a function of the distance of a punch and the direction.



If you are landing a punch at full extension of the arm, you are at the wrong range.



Nobody Important said:


> No it doesn't, it follows the line of attack. If punching high the wrist will be at the highest point and shoulder at the lowest on the line of attack on an inside gate punch.



This is popping the elbow up over shoulder. VT elbow stays low.

You said your inside and outside gate punches don't change.

If you raise your elbow over your shoulder above the opponent's arm on the outside you won't wedge anything.
If you keep your elbow low under the opponent's arm on the inside, you won't wedge anything.

To work around this, you pivot to dodge and sink or raise your elbow to affect the incoming punch.

= Reactive arm-chasing.


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> I didn't see anything about a level punch.   People are moving the goalposts on me. And now we're talking about the entire arm moving forward,,,



I think the problem is this the context of a WC punch a bunch of us already understand.

A Stereotypical WC punch is a straight punch that has the elbow pointed down.  It can be to any target the arm can reach but it has the elbow down and if fully extended you should be able to draw a straight line between the fist and the sternum (hence the saying "punch from the heart".)

Here is a video that illustrates it 




Now some Lineages will also incorporate a "Buffalo punch" and the like but the video above is the bread an butter punch.  The reason the idea of level punching has come about is because a couple people are trying in vain to defend a position that violates not any WC rule but basic biomechanical rules.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> My punch is straight forward as I described, no different than what presented in the images I posted.



There it is!



> This video is your weak attempt to suggest I punch like this fellow with a weird popping elbow, I never said I did and am confirming I do not.



This confirms you do:



> the wrist will be at the highest point and shoulder at the lowest on the line of attack


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> I think the problem is this the context of a WC punch a bunch of us already understand.





I just read several pages of you guys  to figure out how to punch keeping elbow low.


----------



## Juany118

Nobody Important said:


> LOL, and the only way possible. Technically the elbow will still rise very slightly with a fully extended hammer fist.



I can testify to this.  This isn't a traditional Wing Chun strike but at work its a bread and brother punch for me.  An empty hand hammer punch to the collar bone will buckle someone, with a tactical pen or my tactical flashlight just above the collar bone to that pressure point...Oi!!!

If you are going for maximum leverage, the elbow will rise slightly so you can get maximum force.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> If you are landing a punch at full extension of the arm, you are at the wrong range.
> 
> 
> 
> This is popping the elbow up over shoulder. VT elbow stays low.
> 
> You said your inside and outside gate punches don't change.
> 
> If you raise your elbow over your shoulder above the opponent's arm on the outside you won't wedge anything.
> If you keep your elbow low under the opponent's arm on the inside, you won't wedge anything.
> 
> To work around this, you pivot to dodge and sink or raise your elbow to affect the incoming punch.
> 
> = Reactive arm-chasing.


Wow! You are seriously thick headed. Three levels, High, Medium, Low. I don't know about you but I don't punch on one plane. Again, it makes no sense to purposefully try and accomplish Gate Punching it should occur naturally during the course of punching, no arm chasing. If it happens it happens, if not nothing lost. You asked specifically how it would be performed when the opponent is punching you in the head like in the videos you presented. Hypothetically, it would occur as I have described numerous times, but you would not seek to purposefully do it. But to give you another example of how inside/outside gate are the done the same, require they are both performed at the same level:

Imagine a right punch being thrown at your chest, using your left hand, while pivoting left, you punch over his arm, your forearm knocks it offline as you hit his head. Now if it is the same punch being thrown with his left hand, you pivot right while punching with your right hand under his arm, your forearm knocks it offline as you strike his head. This would all be in middle level. If it were at high level (like in your videos), your arm has to extend more, causing the wrist and elbow to be higher than shoulder, otherwise you'll get hit. There is no rise or sink, you push the punch forward, the angle of the forearm is the wedge. Just as shown in the pictures of PB doing the outer gate punch.

Yes at times I do extend my arm fully, the full potential of power penetration is realized at fullest extension of the arm. It doesn't mean I'm punching from too far away, it means I'm punching through. The same concept is found in Long Fist. I don't care if this is proper for WSLVT or not, I don't do WSLVT.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> There it is!
> 
> 
> 
> This confirms you do:


Stop already, your desperation is bordering on ridiculous.


----------



## drop bear

Silly question but if you are moving off line to counter punch why would you want your punch to jam up their punch?

You are out of the way.  Any jamming is only slowing your attack down.


----------



## Juany118

LFJ said:


> I just read several pages of you guys  to figure out how to punch keeping elbow low.



And you are completely dodging points and using the martial arts equivalent of psychobabble to dodge a point.  If your elbow is pointed down it is quite literally physically impossible to extend your arm without the elbow rising in relation to the surface you are standing on.  If you are reaching/punching at something higher than shoulder height it is impossible, if your elbow is pointing down, for the wrist to not be higher than both the elbow and shoulder.

These are actual hard written laws NOT of any particular martial arts but if the biomechanics of the human body, period.  

I am now left wondering if you are just so stubborn that you are ignoring the laws under which the human body move or if you are simply a straight up troll getting your jollies off of watching people slowly biurely getting frustrated at feigned ignorance.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Imagine a right punch being thrown at your chest, using your left hand, while pivoting left, you punch over his arm, your forearm knocks it offline as you hit his head.



Pivot to dodge. Wrist-led punch to attack the arm and head. = Reactive arm-chasing.



> Now if it is the same punch being thrown with his left hand, you pivot right while punching with your right hand under his arm, your forearm knocks it offline as you strike his head.



Same as above, but won't work without raising your elbow.



> This would all be in middle level. If it were at high level (like in your videos), your arm has to extend more, causing the wrist and elbow to be higher than shoulder, otherwise you'll get hit.



So, level is referring to the incoming punch, and you modify your punch to deal with it. Same as above. Reactive arm-chasing.



> There is no rise or sink, you push the punch forward, the angle of the forearm is the wedge.



You just said your elbow will rise to higher than shoulder, otherwise you'll get hit. There's no need to wedge if you have dodged.



> Just as shown in the pictures of PB doing the outer gate punch.



PB is not doing what you describe.


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> it is impossible, if your elbow is pointing down, for the wrist to not be higher than both the elbow and shoulder.



And?

VT elbow stays low. 

Nobody Important has described raising the elbow above shoulder level.


----------



## Juany118

drop bear said:


> Silly question but if you are moving off line to counter punch why would you want your punch to jam up their punch?
> 
> You are out of the way.  Any jamming is only slowing your attack down.



The idea is this... The intent isn't to jam a punch, the idea is that if you punch using a particular method you either strike the target causing damage OR if they are also punching your punch naturally jams the incoming attack. 

Thing is for the arm to be able to do that one or the other kinda thing it require a particular orientation or you risk a collapse of the structure on the "jam" side.


----------



## Nobody Important

Philipp Bayer punching at high level. His elbow is clearly higher than shoulder, because he is striking someone taller. Also you can notice that his elbow is not down, but to the side.


----------



## LFJ

_Faak-sau_.


----------



## Nobody Important

drop bear said:


> Silly question but if you are moving off line to counter punch why would you want your punch to jam up their punch?
> 
> You are out of the way.  Any jamming is only slowing your attack down.


Honestly you wouldn't. LFJ presented a situation where inside gate punching could be visualized. I've stated to him several times that you don't actively pursue such a thing. In attempts to explain it to him he has done everything he can think of to discredit something that wouldn't be done in the scenario presented anyways.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> _Faak-sau_.


His right hand is irrelevant. Look at his left punch. Are you going to deny that the elbow is higher than his shoulder, or that his elbow isn't down? Try to spin buddy, its right there for you to see.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> His right hand is irrelevant. Look at his left punch. Are you going to deny that the elbow is higher than his shoulder, or that his elbow isn't down? Try to spin buddy, its right there for you to see.



It's _faak-sau_! Not a punch! 

You think what his right hand is doing is _faak-sau_?

I think guy b is right. There's no way you are a real Wing Chun practitioner.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> LFJ presented a situation where inside gate punching could be visualized...
> ...he has done everything he can think of to discredit something that wouldn't be done in the scenario presented anyways.



That was you who said this:



Nobody Important said:


> Imagine a right punch being thrown at your chest,


----------



## Nobody Important

H


LFJ said:


> It's _faak-sau_! Not a punch!
> 
> You think what his right hand is doing is _faak-sau_?


His left hand is throwing a straight punch not a faak sau. It is moving to the inside. Argue it all you want. The elbow is higher than the shoulder. And this will be my last remark on the subject because I've been turned in and will likely be banned. Continue to propagate the delusion.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Stop already, your desperation is bordering on ridiculous.



Says this guy =>


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> H
> 
> His left hand is throwing a straight punch not a faak sau. It is moving to the inside. Argue it all you want. The elbow is higher than the shoulder. And this will be my last remark on the subject because I've been turned in and will likely be banned. Continue to propagate the delusion.



You are not a Wing Chun practitioner. Quit trolling.


----------



## geezer

Nobody Important said:


> H
> 
> His left hand is throwing a straight punch not a faak sau. It is moving to the inside. Argue it all you want. The elbow is higher than the shoulder. And this will be my last remark on the subject because I've been turned in and will likely be banned. Continue to propagate the delusion.



Hmm... it sure looks like a right lap-sau and left hand fak-sau to me. BTW hasn't this become a really stupid thread?  I think a lot of WC/WT/VT people must just delight in arguing. I mean, all this just regarding elbow position in punching? Sheesh.

FYI: In our lineage we keep the elbow low, and at proper hitting range (with the arm bent) the elbow tends to stay lower than the fist. Even when punching upward, the bent elbow points downward. Now when air-punching_ in practice_, we let our punches extend and the arm straighten out. Then, of course the elbow rises, and many people from other lineages see this and think that we advocate "popping the elbow up". We don't. But others can think whatever they want. I will explain what we do and that's the end of it. Only an idiot knowingly argues with an idiot. I really have nothing more to add to this thread.


----------



## LFJ

This is the video he captured the still from.

PB is doing _faak-sau_ throughout the clip to check the students' _wu-sau_.

As he says, "_Wu-sau_, _wu-sau_, _wu-sau_. The problem is... _wu-sau_".


----------



## Juany118

geezer said:


> Hmm... it sure looks like a right lap-sau and left hand fak-sau to me. BTW hasn't this become a really stupid thread?  I think a lot of WC/WT/VT people must just delight in arguing. I mean, all this just regarding elbow position in punching? Sheesh.
> 
> FYI: In our lineage we keep the elbow low, and at proper hitting range (with the arm bent) the elbow tends to stay lower than the fist. Even when punching upward, the bent elbow points downward. Now when air-punching_ in practice_, we let our punches extend and the arm straighten out. Then, of course the elbow rises, and many people from other lineages see this and think that we advocate "popping the elbow up". We don't. But others can think whatever they want. I will explain what we do and that's the end of it. Only an idiot knowingly argues with an idiot. I really have nothing more to add to this thread.



I think the "elbow position" thing is the product of a derail from the "usual suspects" to conceal something, the fact they said something that initially violated basic biomechanics.  If your elbow is down, when you strike, the elbow will rise (as it moves forward) in relation to the surface you are standing on.  That was the initial point, which they denied and now are going all over the place in terms of things to try and obfuscate that their denial of this biomechanical fact was simply silly because denying basic biomechanics is like denying Newton's laws of Physics.


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> I think the "elbow position" thing is the product of a derail from the "usual suspects" to conceal something, the fact they said something that initially violated basic biomechanics.  If your elbow is down, when you strike, the elbow will rise (as it moves forward) in relation to the surface you are standing on.  That was the initial point, which they denied and now are going all over the place in terms of things to try and obfuscate that their denial of this biomechanical fact was simply silly because denying basic biomechanics is like denying Newton's laws of Physics.



If the elbow pops up to above shoulder level, it is being allowed to rise.

VT elbow stays low. It doesn't rise to shoulder level and definitely not above.

How is that "all over the place"? It's what I have been saying. 
If I punch forward, my elbow stays low and moves forward.


----------



## Steve

Juany118 said:


> but that isn't what I thought was being discussed.


Honestly, I thought this entire thread was  about nothing.   I mean, seriously.   Arguing about whether an elbow goes up or not, and then each side saying, "aha!  I caught you!  The sky isn't blue; it's teal."


----------



## geezer

Steve said:


> Honestly, I thought this entire thread was  about nothing.   I mean, seriously..."



I agree... and yet I read the whole thing. Guess that makes me just as big a fool


----------



## Nobody Important

My apologies, the first photo was indeed a Faak Sau, it was performed at :14 in the video. I posted the wrong one

This is the image I meant to post, it is from :15 in the video and is a straight punch, not a Faak Sau. It is a very quick in and out. It shows exactly what I was speaking of. Now you can contest it until you're blue in the face. I will not be convinced otherwise. Slow it down frame for frame and view it for yourself.


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> Honestly, I thought this entire thread was  about nothing.   I mean, seriously.   Arguing about whether an elbow goes up or not, and then each side saying, "aha!  I caught you!  The sky isn't blue; it's teal."


I think it's more that a bunch of us are frustrated by two people.  You could post a video from their Sifu that completely contradicts them and they would say "our Sifu purposefully lied in that video" to dismiss their error.

Some people chose to just ignore them, a valid response.  Some of us have just had it to the point that they need to illustrate just how ridiculous they are being.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> My apologies, the first photo was indeed a Faak Sau, it was performed at :14 in the video. I posted the wrong one
> 
> This is the image I meant to post, it is from :15 in the video and is a straight punch, not a Faak Sau.



Also _faak-sau_.  

First is _laap+faak. _Second is _paak+faak_.

You are not a Wing Chun practitioner. Just quit.


----------



## Nobody Important

geezer said:


> Hmm... it sure looks like a right lap-sau and left hand fak-sau to me. BTW hasn't this become a really stupid thread?  I think a lot of WC/WT/VT people must just delight in arguing. I mean, all this just regarding elbow position in punching? Sheesh.
> 
> FYI: In our lineage we keep the elbow low, and at proper hitting range (with the arm bent) the elbow tends to stay lower than the fist. Even when punching upward, the bent elbow points downward. Now when air-punching_ in practice_, we let our punches extend and the arm straighten out. Then, of course the elbow rises, and many people from other lineages see this and think that we advocate "popping the elbow up". We don't. But others can think whatever they want. I will explain what we do and that's the end of it. Only an idiot knowingly argues with an idiot. I really have nothing more to add to this thread.


Yes this whole discussion is ignorant, I take my share of the blame. What I can't understand is why so many allow LFJ and Guy B. to continue to bully without calling them out on their BS.


----------



## Juany118

LFJ said:


> If the elbow pops up to above shoulder level, it is being allowed to rise.
> 
> VT elbow stays low. It doesn't rise to shoulder level and definitely not above.
> 
> How is that "all over the place"? It's what I have been saying.
> If I punch forward, my elbow stays low and moves forward.


First that wasn't the original issue.  The original issue was that the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on as you extend a punch.  So thank you for illustrating my point.

Secondly your idea immediately creates a conundrum.  You are, in essence saying, that if a WC practitioner is of a certain height their will eventually be an opponent they can only "body blow".  As an example I used to work with a female that was 5'1".  Using your idea she would not be able to use WC to punch a subject in the face if they were say, over 5'6".   That is non-sensical and disproved by previously shown photos of PB himself.  

Or is this not PB.





Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

And there we aren'tseeing a 6 inch height difference.  But yeah...


----------



## geezer

Nobody Important said:


> My apologies, the first photo was indeed a Faak Sau, it was performed at :14 in the video. I posted the wrong one
> 
> This is the image I meant to post, it is from :15 in the video and is a straight punch, not a Faak Sau. It is a very quick in and out. It shows exactly what I was speaking of. Now you can contest it until you're blue in the face. I will not be convinced otherwise. Slow it down frame for frame and view it for yourself.



Yeah, I noticed that watching the clip. Seems legit, it followed the fak a split second before and returned like a jab without changing the arm position. That would have taken more time. Just shows that when you are very good, you can bend the rules, to follow an even more basic rule -_- efficiency._ This was a good clip, eh?


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Yes this whole discussion is ignorant, I take my share of the blame. What I can't understand is why so many allow LFJ and Guy B. to continue to bully without calling them out on their BS.



Bully?

Are you playing victim now? Like Juany did when he said TWC doesn't step away, but his video showed the guy's foot stepping _backward _away from the opponent, and he said I'm "taking shots" on the lineage by pointing that out...


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> First that wasn't the original issue.  The original issue was that the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on as you extend a punch.  So thank you for illustrating my point.
> 
> Secondly your idea immediately creates a conundrum.  You are, in essence saying, that if a WC practitioner is of a certain height their will eventually be an opponent they can only "body blow".  As an example I used to work with a female that was 5'1".  Using your idea she would not be able to use WC to punch a subject in the face if they were say, over 5'6".   That is non-sensical and disproved by previously shown photos of PB himself.
> 
> Or is this not PB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
> 
> And there we aren'tseeing a 6 inch height difference.  But yeah...



The original issue was popping the elbow up versus not.

And again, that is a freaking_ faak-sau_!


----------



## Nobody Important

It's not a f


LFJ said:


> Also _faak-sau_.
> 
> First is _laap+faak. _Second is _paak+faak_.
> 
> You are not a Wing Chun practitioner. Just quit.



It's a punch. But I guess when a hand is missing you can call it whatever you want. Regardless the same principle applies, doesn't matter if it's a fist or open hand. The argument is still valid. The elbow is above the shoulder. This same movement can be applied to inner gate strike.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Regardless the same principle applies, doesn't matter if it's a fist or open hand. The argument is still valid. The elbow is above the shoulder. This same movement can be applied to inner gate strike.



The elbow is up because it's a _faak-sau_. The hand is irrelevant. 

You clearly aren't a Wing Chun practitioner.

We don't punch like that whether inner or outer.


----------



## Juany118

LFJ said:


> The original issue was popping the elbow up versus not.
> 
> And again, that is a freaking_ faak-sau_!


And you completely dodge my point about the 5'1" vs 5'6" person why?  It's not even limited to that.  People of similar height, if they wish to effectively punch an opponent in the face, will often have their elbow over the shoulder, if ever so slightly because the head is higher than the shoulder and the fist will be connect to the shoulder by the elbow.

But for clarification... cutting punch

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> And you completely dodge my point about the 5'1" vs 5'6" person why?



VT elbow idea still applies.


----------



## guy b.

As I said before, please just stop 

Doesn't recognise Faak?

Elbow above shoulder?

It's a troll. It doesn't do wing chun of any kind. 

Good job and I believed it for quite a while


----------



## Juany118

guy b. said:


> As I said before, please just stop
> 
> Doesn't recognise Faak?
> 
> Elbow above shoulder?
> 
> It's a troll. It doesn't do wing chun of any kind.
> 
> Good job and I believed it for quite a while



cutting punch

Really, focus on the fak BUT ignore the correction.  I assume you two will run for Parliament someday on a Nationalist platform


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> cutting punch
> 
> Really, focus on the fak BUT ignore the correction.  I assume you two will run for Parliament someday on a Nationalist platform



That's another_ faak-sau_.


----------



## Nobody Important

That's right the hand is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you are striking with an open hand or closed fist the action is the same. Its to what purpose you put to it. You said that you never bring the elbow up, then you said it never goes higher than the shoulder. I told you several times that the inner gate strike could be done with biu sau and it wouldn't change the principle. You simply want to spin things to deny that at times the elbow goes up and sometimes above the shoulder. I've given you more than enough evidence to prove that it does. So please by all means, continue to sling mud, spin the narrative and divert because you were caught lying. If that whats get you through the day and helps you rest easy at night, I'll be glad to enable you. You have not once honestly participated in any aspect of this conversation. You have only attempted to assert your authority.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> That's right the hand is irrelevant.



The left is a _faak-sau_! 

You have not shown a VT punch with the elbow higher than shoulder.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> If you perform the action correctly the elbow doesn't move much from vertical fist to Biu, the action is mostly wrist.



Because your system is wrist-focused. No SNT elbow idea present.


----------



## Steve

Juany118 said:


> I think it's more that a bunch of us are frustrated by two people.  You could post a video from their Sifu that completely contradicts them and they would say "our Sifu purposefully lied in that video" to dismiss their error.
> 
> Some people chose to just ignore them, a valid response.  Some of us have just had it to the point that they need to illustrate just how ridiculous they are being.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


From the outside, you guys don't look any different.   Seriously.  It's a 13 page thread about whether the elbow rises.   Don't get me wrong.   I'm thoroughly enjoying it.   But don't pretend you've got the moral high ground.   Youre all entrenched.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> The left is a _faak-sau_!  Do you even know what a _faak-sau_ is? Why would you think I mean the right hand?
> 
> You have not shown a VT punch with the elbow higher than shoulder.


Because what he is doing with his right hand is irrelevant. The focus is on what he's doing with his left arm. Yes the first was a Faak Sau at :14, but the one at :15 is a quick straight in and out punch. Now if you insist that its a Faak Sau, OK. But I cant confirm that when there isn't a hand to definitively prove otherwise. I'd say that if his hand was there, that motion could be a Biu Sau. Either way, it looks like a straight punch to me, straight in and out. Besides the focus is on the action of the elbow rising, I could care less what "technique" it is. The example clearly illustrates the point I've been making. You're attempting to turn it into something else. Care to explain those "elbow ideas" yet? Or are you going to continue to avoid that?


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Because what he is doing with his right hand is irrelevant. The focus is on what he's doing with his left arm. Yes the first was a Faak Sau at :14, but the one at :15 is a quick straight in and out punch. Now if you insist that its a Faak Sau, OK. But I cant confirm that when there isn't a hand to definitively prove otherwise.



It is a _faak-sau_, and I thought you said the hand is irrelevant. Why can't you recognize _faak-sau_ without seeing the hand?



> Besides the focus is on the action of the elbow rising, I could care less what "technique" it is. The example clearly illustrates the point I've been making. You're attempting to turn it into something else.



We were talking about punches. This thread is titled "cutting *punch*". You are the one looking at _faak-sau_ even though you can't recognize it without the hand, because you don't understand elbow.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Because your system is wrist-focused. No SNT elbow idea present.


Please quit spreading lies, you know zilch about the system I study. I honestly don't even know why you're arguing with me about something you, yourself admittedly don't do. Doesn't make sense to me. I guess you just want to claim that you have a better style than I do. If that's the case, don't let me hold you back, I don't care what you think about YCWWC. Your opinion doesn't matter.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Please quit spreading lies, you know zilch about the system I study. I honestly don't even know why you're arguing with me about something you, yourself admittedly don't do. Doesn't make sense to me. I guess you just want to claim that you have a better style than I do. If that's the case, don't let me hold you back, I don't care what you think about YCWWC. Your opinion doesn't matter.



Your descriptions have revealed the wrist focus of your system.

I have not said either is better or worse. I haven't given an opinion of YCWWC. If you can get it to work, that's great.

We're just talking about the elbow focus. There or not? In yours, it appears not. This shouldn't offend you. You train a different system.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Your descriptions have revealed the wrist focus of your system.
> 
> I have not said either is better or worse. I haven't given an opinion of YCWWC. If you can get it to work, that's great.
> 
> We're just talking about the elbow focus. There or not? In yours, it appears not. This shouldn't offend you. You train a different system.


Your ideas on elbow? I wouldn't know you've never explained them. Doesn't matter anyways. It's getting late and I'm sure everyone is out of popcorn and beer by now. We've come to an impasse, no sense of continuing to beat this dead horse. Goodnight LFJ, thank you for the rousing conversation. Everyone else, you're welcome. I'll stop in sometime next week for another stimulating round of nonsense.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Your ideas on elbow?



YMVT. 

Irrelevant to you, which makes it really bizarre why you are even here.


----------



## dudewingchun

how far do you guys punch in PBWSLVT? You'd have to punch only like a fist distance away from your body to keep your elbow down. Pretty sure it doesnt matter to you though, just here to rark theses guys up.


----------



## LFJ

dudewingchun said:


> how far do you guys punch in PBWSLVT? You'd have to punch only like a fist distance away from your body to keep your elbow down.



Same as WSL and YM.

Look at the image NI made. Is his elbow down? Yes. Is it only a fist away from his body? No.


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> From the outside, you guys don't look any different.   Seriously.  It's a 13 page thread about whether the elbow rises.   Don't get me wrong.   I'm thoroughly enjoying it.   But don't pretend you've got the moral high ground.   Youre all entrenched.



If someone says "an object at rest remains at rest unless acted upon by an outside force" and defends that position and another person insists that an inanimate object can begin moving without said force, the first person may indeed be entrenched but he is entrenched in a scientific facts, the other person is entrenched in either denial or misunderstanding.

Literally that was the issue here, though it has been derailed quite nicely.  The biomechanical fact that when an arm is extended with the elbow down the elbow will rise in relation to the surface you are standing on.  Now can we argue that it is useless to try and debate with someone who denies a scientific fact?  Yep.  When is why I now have some people on ignore, but that's really about it.


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> Literally that was the issue here, though it has been derailed quite nicely.  The biomechanical fact that when an arm is extended with the elbow down the elbow will rise in relation to the surface you are standing on.



It hasn't been derailed. That was just never the issue.

The issue was maintaining the triangle between shoulder, fist, and elbow, by keeping the elbow at the lowest point, versus losing the triangle by allowing the elbow to rise up to above shoulder level.

VT punches keep the elbow low and drive forward from the elbow.

And by the way, whether or not and how much the elbow will rise in relation to the ground depends on how far you are extending forward or upward.

I can have my elbow one fist's distance from my body and extend an elbow-driven punch to a good three fists' distance without the elbow rising in relation to the ground.

Next time you go to a bar or have a tall enough countertop, table, or maybe dresser around, prop your elbow up on it in punch-ready position, fist face height. You might have to stand a bit diagonally to it, so you have say left lead leg, right arm punching. 

Then, extend your punch not leading with the wrist and allowing the elbow to rise, but driving forward with the elbow down. See how far it slides on the flat surface without rising off. You'll probably get at least a good 20cm if you do it right. 

That's punching with the elbow down. If you need to angle a punch more upward, the same low elbow applies. The elbow should not pop up and lose triangle even when rising in relation to the ground.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Silly question but if you are moving off line to counter punch why would you want your punch to jam up their punch?
> 
> You are out of the way.  Any jamming is only slowing your attack down.


Remember that this is an incidental interception. They structure the punch so that it _can_ intersect if the attack is there. Why would intersecting be useful if you're off-line? It disrupts the attacker's body structure, even if only slightly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Pivot to dodge. Wrist-led punch to attack the arm and head. = Reactive arm-chasing.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as above, but won't work without raising your elbow.
> 
> 
> 
> So, level is referring to the incoming punch, and you modify your punch to deal with it. Same as above. Reactive arm-chasing.
> 
> 
> 
> You just said your elbow will rise to higher than shoulder, otherwise you'll get hit. There's no need to wedge if you have dodged.
> 
> 
> 
> PB is not doing what you describe.


Except that you're still ignoring the fact that they DON'T adjust the punch to try to intersect that attack. He's specifying the conditions under which the intersection would occur, not how they make it happen. It's not "arm chasing" if they are striking from that position and the intersection is incidental. I'd accept the "arm chasing" claim if they were making those movements in order to intersect that strike.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> And?
> 
> VT elbow stays low.
> 
> Nobody Important has described raising the elbow above shoulder level.


If the punch is high enough, the elbow would be above shoulder level (striking the head of someone a foot taller would be an example). That's the only example NI provided that put the elbow above the shoulder - it's the extreme.


----------



## Steve

Juany118 said:


> If someone says "an object at rest remains at rest unless acted upon by an outside force" and defends that position and another person insists that an inanimate object can begin moving without said force, the first person may indeed be entrenched but he is entrenched in a scientific facts, the other person is entrenched in either denial or misunderstanding.
> 
> Literally that was the issue here, though it has been derailed quite nicely.  The biomechanical fact that when an arm is extended with the elbow down the elbow will rise in relation to the surface you are standing on.  Now can we argue that it is useless to try and debate with someone who denies a scientific fact?  Yep.  When is why I now have some people on ignore, but that's really about it.


doesnt that depend on the direction the arm is being extended and whether the shoulder is engaged?

And ultimately, even if your point is irrefutable, does it matter?   you are convinced you're right, and you won't stop because you have a weird need to make whoever it is that you disagree with (I honestly don't know which of them that is off the top of my head) acknowledge that you are right.   Do you think theyre going to, all of a sudden, say, "juany, my bad.  You're so smart and handsome, I should know better than to argue with you.   Are you free tonight?"


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> If the elbow pops up to above shoulder level, it is being allowed to rise.
> 
> VT elbow stays low. It doesn't rise to shoulder level and definitely not above.
> 
> How is that "all over the place"? It's what I have been saying.
> If I punch forward, my elbow stays low and moves forward.


Actually, you stated that the elbow doesn't rise at all. While that can be accomplished on low, short strikes (by extending the shoulder into the strike), it's not possible in a full-range punch (even if, as we do, the punch is never extended to fully straighten the arm) and not possible without extending the shoulder forward.

Now, if you're talking about keeping the elbow low (as opposed to not letting it come up, at all), that's a common principle in many arts and styles, and nothing odd.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> Except that you're still ignoring the fact that they DON'T adjust the punch to try to intersect that attack. He's specifying the conditions under which the intersection would occur, not how they make it happen. It's not "arm chasing" if they are striking from that position and the intersection is incidental. I'd accept the "arm chasing" claim if they were making those movements in order to intersect that strike.



He said his arm has to extend more, raising the elbow, depending on the level of the opponent's punch.

How he punches is therefore dictated by the opponent's punch.



gpseymour said:


> If the punch is high enough, the elbow would be above shoulder level (striking the head of someone a foot taller would be an example). That's the only example NI provided that put the elbow above the shoulder - it's the extreme.



When he described his basic punch it was "shoulder at the lowest point on the line of attack".

That means the elbow is above shoulder level, not because he's punching way up high, but because he's punching from the wrong range.



gpseymour said:


> Actually, you stated that the elbow doesn't rise at all. While that can be accomplished on low, short strikes (by extending the shoulder into the strike), it's not possible in a full-range punch (even if, as we do, the punch is never extended to fully straighten the arm) and not possible without extending the shoulder forward.



So what? If you are landing punches at full extension of the arm, you're at the wrong range for VT. There will be no power in the punch, plus it'll be further dampened if you're using the elbow lift to wedge out the opponent's arm from underneath.



> Now, if you're talking about keeping the elbow low (as opposed to not letting it come up, at all), that's a common principle in many arts and styles, and nothing odd.



Never said it was odd. What's odd is that none of you understood how it could be physically possible to not allow rise in the elbow.


----------



## LFJ

@gpseymour   Thanks for rating all my posts funny. You come here solely to argue on behalf of other approaches to a MA you have no experience with. It's quite bizarre, and you are another odd grudge-holder for reasons unknown. I guess things seem funny when you have no idea what's going on.


----------



## Steve

LFJ said:


> It hasn't been derailed. That was just never the issue.
> 
> The issue was maintaining the triangle between shoulder, fist, and elbow, by keeping the elbow at the lowest point, versus losing the triangle by allowing the elbow to rise up to above shoulder level.
> 
> VT punches keep the elbow low and drive forward from the elbow.
> 
> And by the way, whether or not and how much the elbow will rise in relation to the ground depends on how far you are extending forward or upward.
> 
> I can have my elbow one fist's distance from my body and extend an elbow-driven punch to a good three fists' distance without the elbow rising in relation to the ground.
> 
> Next time you go to a bar or have a tall enough countertop, table, or maybe dresser around, prop your elbow up on it in punch-ready position, fist face height. You might have to stand a bit diagonally to it, so you have say left lead leg, right arm punching.
> 
> Then, extend your punch not leading with the wrist and allowing the elbow to rise, but driving forward with the elbow down. See how far it slides on the flat surface without rising off. You'll probably get at least a good 20cm if you do it right.
> 
> That's punching with the elbow down. If you need to angle a punch more upward, the same low elbow applies. The elbow should not pop up and lose triangle even when rising in relation to the ground.


This seemed to work for me.  I was able to extend my arm while keeping my elbow down and in contact with the table.  If, as juany suggests, this is physically impossible according to irrefutable laws of physics, I must have been doing it wrong, because, as LFJ suggests, it didn't seem to be all that difficult. 

I don't know if it's an effective punching technique, but I am pretty sure it isn't contrary to natural laws.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> This seemed to work for me.  I was able to extend my arm while keeping my elbow down and in contact with the table.  If, as juany suggests, this is physically impossible according to irrefutable laws of physics, I must have been doing it wrong, because, as LFJ suggests, it didn't seem to be all that difficult.
> 
> I don't know if it's an effective punching technique, but I am pretty sure it isn't contrary to natural laws.


It's also not much of a punch, and punching was the point under discussion. The claim at one point was that WSLVT punches always do that.


----------



## LFJ

Steve said:


> This seemed to work for me.  I was able to extend my arm while keeping my elbow down and in contact with the table.  If, as juany suggests, this is physically impossible according to irrefutable laws of physics, I must have been doing it wrong, because, as LFJ suggests, it didn't seem to be all that difficult.
> 
> I don't know if it's an effective punching technique, but I am pretty sure it isn't contrary to natural laws.



Either that or the laws of physics have been suspended in our favor to prove a point.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> It's also not much of a punch, and punching was the point under discussion. The claim at one point was that WSLVT punches always do that.



It's not a punch. It's an illustration. A real punch will have the entire body mass behind it, from ground up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> It's not a punch. It's an illustration. A real punch will have the entire body mass behind it, from ground up.


And, yet, you used it in a discussion regarding the mechanics of a punch.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> And, yet, you used it in a discussion regarding the mechanics of a punch.



It's part of the overall mechanics. What's hard to understand? 

Either you're abnormally slow, or are being oddly biased for some reason.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> It's also not much of a punch, and punching was the point under discussion. The claim at one point was that WSLVT punches always do that.


That's hard for me to judge, as I don't punch that way.  But I can say that LFJ doesn't seem to have asserted anything that is demonstrably false.  Others, who have suggested that it is impossible, have asserted something that is demonstrably false. 

From a lay perspective, the people who are making overblown claims that can be shown to be false are the ones losing credibility.  

Or to put it similarly to how Juany did, I say, "an object at rest stays at rest," and you say, "Nuh uh.  That's impossible."   Who's credible? 

LFJ says you can extend an arm while keeping the elbow down.  He provides a simple, easily conducted experiment to demonstrate what he means.  Other people say (and please picture Luke Skywalker responding to Darth Vader on Cloud City), "No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!" 
Guy B: Search your feelings, you *know* it to be true! 
Nobody Important: [_anguished_] No! No! "


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> doesnt that depend on the direction the arm is being extended and whether the shoulder is engaged?
> 
> And ultimately, even if your point is irrefutable, does it matter?   you are convinced you're right, and you won't stop because you have a weird need to make whoever it is that you disagree with (I honestly don't know which of them that is off the top of my head) acknowledge that you are right.   Do you think theyre going to, all of a sudden, say, "juany, my bad.  You're so smart and handsome, I should know better than to argue with you.   Are you free tonight?"



For the first part it has been clarified (since some people don't train specifically in the punch) that the elbow is oriented so it points "down" in the punch to provide the specific context being used here.

I no longer see the responses because clearly they will simply just keep moving goal posts in order to obfuscate the original error and hence why I no longer see their responses.  I just wanted to clarify the difference between the two positions and that one is actually talking about a bonafide fact of bio mechanics.  As an example even if you "sink" as you perform such a punch, relative to the surface you are standing on the elbow rises, simply because your sinking at the legs acts an opposing force doesn't change the actual movement of the elbow through space, which is as the hand moves forward the extension cause the elbow to rise due to it being a hinge joint.  If you look at the video I linked early that is the WC punch.  Additionally, as @gpseymour also made clear, unless you are going to bar a punch to the face/head of an opponent, after a particular size differential, the elbow will rise higher than the shoulder.  None of this has anything to do with MA, it's biomechanics and geometry.

I have no problem with people having different opinions.  As an example someone prefers another WC Lineage, another MA all together?  Good for them, I am interested to learn how/why they came to their opinion as I will learn something.  However to quote Harlan Ellison, "you are not entitled to an opinion, you are entitled to an informed opinion, no one is entitled to be ignorant." If someone is going to make statements contradicted by science I think, even if for only a bit, they need to be called for such shenanigans.


----------



## LFJ

Steve said:


> From a lay perspective,



From a lay perspective, you can see things clearly, or at least be honest about what you see, because you have no ego invested in being on one side or the other.

That can't be said of some who are posting against me, it seems. Juany thinks I dissed his lineage because I made an observation of something in a video that he said was not there.

I really don't know what dog gpseymour has in the fight, though.


----------



## wtxs

Steve said:


> I didn't see anything about a level punch.   People are moving the goalposts on me. And now we're talking about the entire arm moving forward,,,



Your arm don't move forward when you punch?


----------



## Steve

wtxs said:


> Your arm don't move forward when you punch?


not my entire arm.  Some of it is rotating around my shoulder.


----------



## wtxs

gpseymour said:


> Two people have asked for a video. They haven't provided one. I actually think they are trolling on this one. They're too obvious.



If I had not done so, make it #3.


----------



## wtxs

Steve said:


> not my entire arm.  Some of it is rotating around my shoulder.



Please explain


----------



## Steve

Juany118 said:


> For the first part it has been clarified (since some people don't train specifically in the punch) that the elbow is oriented so it points "down" in the punch to provide the specific context being used here.
> 
> I no longer see the responses because clearly they will simply just keep moving goal posts in order to obfuscate the original error and hence why I no longer see their responses.  I just wanted to clarify the difference between the two positions and that one is actually talking about a bonafide fact of bio mechanics.  As an example even if you "sink" as you perform such a punch, relative to the surface you are standing on the elbow rises, simply because your sinking at the legs acts an opposing force doesn't change the actual movement of the elbow through space.
> 
> I have no problem with people having different opinions.  As an example someone prefers another WC Lineage, another MA all together?  Good for them, I am interested to learn how/why they came to their opinion as I will learn something.  However to quote Harlan Ellison, "you are not entitled to an opinion, you are entitled to an informed opinion, no one is entitled to be ignorant."


All I can tell you is that I can put my elbow on a table, elbow down with my fist vertical.  Without sinking my legs or moving any other part of my body, I can extend my arm, sliding my elbow along the table until it is almost fully extended.  My legs don't enter the picture.   That's not my opinion.  The above isn't me guessing I can do that.  I actually did it.  In fact, just to make sure, I took a brief moment after writing the sentences above to do it again.  Did it.

Hold on... let me try again.

Did it again.  And barring some kind of injury or impairment, you could do it, too, I am sure. 

Bringing up snarky comments about opinions also doesn't reflect well on you.  It's arrogant and unnecessarily dismissive (and I think you know that), particularly as your position is AS fully entrenched as you believe the other team's to be.


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> Or to put it similarly to how Juany did, I say, "an object at rest stays at rest," and you say, "Nuh uh.  That's impossible."   Who's credible?
> 
> LFJ says you can extend an arm while keeping the elbow down.  He provides a simple, easily conducted experiment to demonstrate what he means.  Other people say (and please picture Luke Skywalker responding to Darth Vader on Cloud City), "No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!"
> Guy B: Search your feelings, you *know* it to be true!
> Nobody Important: [_anguished_] No! No! "



That isn't what anyone is doing.  First when it is being said the elbow rises we me this, for the purpose of illustration could you do this experiment.

Put your arm at a right angle, upper arm parallel to your side you fist pointing forward, the elbow down.  Now extend your arm.  You elbow is still pointed down BUT as your arm extends the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on.

Next do the same thing but but have the target be continuously taller.  Eventually your elbow will be higher than your shoulder.

That is all we are talking about on the opposing side.  There has been a lot of extraneous BS thrown in but those two points are the key points and unless I missed something they really aren't up for debate.


----------



## Steve

wtxs said:


> Please explain


The shoulder is a ball joint.  The part of my arm that is attached to the shoulder is rotating around the joint.  It's not moving forward.  Rather, it's moving in an arc.  It may appear to be moving forward, but that's an illusion.


----------



## Steve

Juany118 said:


> That isn't what anyone is doing.  First when it is being said the elbow rises we me this, for the purpose of illustration could you do this experiment.
> 
> Put your arm at a right angle, upper arm parallel to your side you fist pointing forward, the elbow down.  Now extend your arm.  You elbow is still pointed down BUT as your arm extends the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on.
> 
> Next do the same thing but but have the target be continuously taller.  Eventually your elbow will be higher than your shoulder.
> 
> That is all we are talking about on the opposing side.  There has been a lot of extraneous BS thrown in but those two points are the key points and unless I missed something they really aren't up for debate.


Has it occurred to you that if you're saying one thing that is clearly correct and the other team is saying something that is clearly correct, you might not be talking about the same thing?  I mean, at some point, it seems like one of you would say, "You know, that sounds reasonable.  I see what you mean.  Here's what I mean."  And everyone goes on about their business.   In other words, if you're both right, you're either talking about something that has multiple possible right answers and we're in the realm of preference, or you're not talking about the same thing. 

That's what I meant when I said that you're just as entrenched as the other side, and that you're all arguing such similar things that it's difficult to tell which side is which sometimes.


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> All I can tell you is that I can put my elbow on a table, elbow down with my fist vertical.  Without sinking my legs or moving any other part of my body, I can extend my arm, sliding my elbow along the table until it is almost fully extended.  My legs don't enter the picture.   That's not my opinion.  The above isn't me guessing I can do that.  I actually did it.  In fact, just to make sure, I took a brief moment after writing the sentences above to do it again.  Did it.
> 
> Hold on... let me try again.
> 
> Did it again.  And barring some kind of injury or impairment, you could do it, too, I am sure.
> 
> Bringing up snarky comments about opinions also doesn't reflect well on you.  It's arrogant and unnecessarily dismissive (and I think you know that), particularly as your position is AS fully entrenched as you believe the other team's to be.


Well I did just try your experiment and when I do so, to get to full extension of a punch (not elbow locked mind you but close to it and still keep the elbow still flat my torso moves.  Yeah if I want my arm to stay at an angle from the elbow to the shoulder that can work but the angle between the elbow and shoulder is obviously more than one would have with a punch.

As such I have two options, lean sideways into the arm or lower the torso towards the table.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> It's part of the overall mechanics. What's hard to understand?
> 
> Either you're abnormally slow, or are being oddly biased for some reason.


It's not part of the overall mechanics of a punch. What's so hard to understand?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> That's hard for me to judge, as I don't punch that way.  But I can say that LFJ doesn't seem to have asserted anything that is demonstrably false.  Others, who have suggested that it is impossible, have asserted something that is demonstrably false.
> 
> From a lay perspective, the people who are making overblown claims that can be shown to be false are the ones losing credibility.
> 
> Or to put it similarly to how Juany did, I say, "an object at rest stays at rest," and you say, "Nuh uh.  That's impossible."   Who's credible?
> 
> LFJ says you can extend an arm while keeping the elbow down.  He provides a simple, easily conducted experiment to demonstrate what he means.  Other people say (and please picture Luke Skywalker responding to Darth Vader on Cloud City), "No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!"
> Guy B: Search your feelings, you *know* it to be true!
> Nobody Important: [_anguished_] No! No! "


Actually, they've stated it's impossible to extend the arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. That's demonstrably false. If you don't extend the arm, sure, but that's not going to cover much of a punch.


----------



## Steve

Juany118 said:


> Well I did just try your experiment and when I do so, to get to full extension of a punch (not elbow locked mind you but close to it and still keep the elbow still flat my torso moves.  Yeah if I want my arm to stay at an angle from the elbow to the shoulder that can work but the angle between the elbow and shoulder is obviously more than one would have with a punch.
> 
> As such I have two options, lean sideways into the arm or lower the torso towards the table.


Couple of things.  First, it's not my experiment.  It's LFJ's. 

Second, I don't have to move my torso, but saying you do, is that a problem?  I don't recall reading anyone saying that in a punch, the torso is locked down, and if you move your torso, we win.  I only recall reading that it is biomechanically impossible to extend the arm without raising the elbow. 

So, all of that to say, huzzah!  It seems that we have reached a point of consensus.  Can we all agree that it is actually possible to extend the arm in a motion that is not unlike a punch where the elbow moves roughly parallel to the ground?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

wtxs said:


> Please explain


I think he's referring to the rotational motion of the upper arm. Steve, that contains a forward vector, as well.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Actually, they've stated it's impossible to extend the arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. That's demonstrably false. If you don't extend the arm, sure, but that's not going to cover much of a punch.


I don't know, man.  When I make a vertical fist with my elbow down on the table, I can extend my arm to just shy of fully extended without moving any other part of my body.  Is it a good punch?  I don't know.  But it's a punching motion.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Has it occurred to you that if you're saying one thing that is clearly correct and the other team is saying something that is clearly correct, you might not be talking about the same thing?  I mean, at some point, it seems like one of you would say, "You know, that sounds reasonable.  I see what you mean.  Here's what I mean."  And everyone goes on about their business.   In other words, if you're both right, you're either talking about something that has multiple possible right answers and we're in the realm of preference, or you're not talking about the same thing.
> 
> That's what I meant when I said that you're just as entrenched as the other side, and that you're all arguing such similar things that it's difficult to tell which side is which sometimes.


Except that the discussion was about punching. I don't think there's much real disagreement about what that should include.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I don't know, man.  When I make a vertical fist with my elbow down on the table, I can extend my arm to just shy of fully extended without moving any other part of my body.  Is it a good punch?  I don't know.  But it's a punching motion.


They've stated that in WSLVT the elbow NEVER rises from the original horizontal plane. That would mean ALL of their punches. Unless they want to assert this thing is their actual and only punch, it doesn't really provide useful support to their claim.


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> Couple of things.  First, it's not my experiment.  It's LFJ's.
> 
> Second, I don't have to move my torso, but saying you do, is that a problem?  I don't recall reading anyone saying that in a punch, the torso is locked down, and if you move your torso, we win.  I only recall reading that it is biomechanically impossible to extend the arm without raising the elbow.
> 
> So, all of that to say, huzzah!  It seems that we have reached a point of consensus.  Can we all agree that it is actually possible to extend the arm in a motion that is not unlike a punch where the elbow moves roughly parallel to the ground?



Here is a video showing the WC punch.  The torso is a lot more locked down than other styles.  You put some shoulder and hip action, into it but leaning should only happen if your structure is disturbed.  I still get talked to on occasion by my side for leaning.






The elbow clearly rises in relation to the surface the Sifu is standing on.  To make matters even more confusing WSL, the founder of WSLPB-VT, is shown on this thread throwing punches with the elbow rising.  NI went so far as to draw lines so you can more readily see the rise.  So if a video like this shows it, plus photos of WSL, yet people say "it doesn't happen, why because I said so" it causes a touch of consternation.


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> Put your arm at a right angle, upper arm parallel to your side you fist pointing forward, the elbow down.  Now extend your arm.  You elbow is still pointed down BUT as your arm extends the elbow rises in relation to the surface you are standing on.
> 
> Next do the same thing but but have the target be continuously taller.  Eventually your elbow will be higher than your shoulder.



Rock 'em Sock 'em style? Who punches like that? Ridiculous...



gpseymour said:


> It's not part of the overall mechanics of a punch. What's so hard to understand?



You know VT now?



gpseymour said:


> Actually, they've stated it's impossible to extend the arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. That's demonstrably false. If you don't extend the arm, sure, but that's not going to cover much of a punch.



It's demonstrably true that it's entirely possible. If you'd drop the bias and do the experiment you could prove it to yourself.



gpseymour said:


> They've stated that in WSLVT the elbow NEVER rises from the original horizontal plane.



Quote please?

I think you'll find I said it may if you're aiming a punch higher, but the elbow is never allowed to rise over shoulder level, closing the triangle between shoulder, fist, and elbow.

In this sense, the only sense in which I was talking, the elbow does not rise, i.e. "pop up". The experiment demonstrates how to do it without even rising from the original horizontal plane.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Rock 'em Sock 'em style? Who punches like that? Ridiculous...
> 
> 
> 
> You know VT now?
> 
> 
> 
> It's demonstrably true that it's entirely possible. If you'd drop the bias and do the experiment you could prove it to yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote please?
> 
> I think you'll find I said it may if you're aiming a punch higher, but the elbow is never allowed to rise over shoulder level, closing the triangle between shoulder, fist, and elbow.
> 
> In this sense, the only sense in which I was talking, the elbow does not rise, i.e. "pop up". The experiment demonstrates how to do it without even rising from the original horizontal plane.


Oy. The claim was made several times that in WSLVT the elbow doesn't rise during a punch. If you disbelieve that, me posting the quotes won't change your mind. The "experiment" challenges a strawman (that the arm cannot move without raising the elbow), rather than the actual argument (normal punching raises the elbow due to mechanics of the arm).

Still funny.


----------



## Juany118

gpseymour said:


> Oy. The claim was made several times that in WSLVT the elbow doesn't rise during a punch. If you disbelieve that, me posting the quotes won't change your mind. The "experiment" challenges a strawman (that the arm cannot move without raising the elbow), rather than the actual argument (normal punching raises the elbow due to mechanics of the arm).
> 
> Still funny.




I had to check to see who what you were responding to "rocket sockem" made me giggle.  Apparently some people miss the point that an experiment can be there to simply illustrate the biomechanical standard being discussed.  The mechanics of a hinge joint don't miraculously change due to purpose, a hinge is a hinge and will move the same way whether the arm starts at a 45, 90, 130, 160 etc until it reaches 180 degrees (though technically I suppose you can hyper extend the joint a little with adequate force and still not be injured).

The final point being biomechanics are not tied to a single MA, they are what they are.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I think he's referring to the rotational motion of the upper arm. Steve, that contains a forward vector, as well.


Depends on where the arc stops.  Doesn't it?


gpseymour said:


> Actually, they've stated it's impossible to extend the arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow. That's demonstrably false. If you don't extend the arm, sure, but that's not going to cover much of a punch.


Come on, man.  If you're getting so nitpicky for the one side, you have to do the same for the other.  Both sides are arguing semantics, which was my overly subtle point when I commented about the rotation of the arm around the shoulder. 

Regarding this demonstrably false thing, once again, I can extend my arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow.  I'm not not extending the arm (double negative intentional).  It's a punching motion.  Have you tried it on the table?  It's pretty easy presuming you have a table handy... and an arm.


----------



## wtxs

geezer said:


> Hmm... it sure looks like a right lap-sau and left hand fak-sau to me. BTW hasn't this become a really stupid thread?  I think a lot of WC/WT/VT people must just delight in arguing. I mean, all this just regarding elbow position in punching? Sheesh.
> 
> FYI: In our lineage we keep the elbow low, and at proper hitting range (with the arm bent) the elbow tends to stay lower than the fist. _*Even when punching upward, the bent elbow points downward*_. Now when air-punching_ in practice_, we let our punches extend and the arm straighten out. Then, of course the elbow rises, and many people from other lineages see this and think that we advocate "popping the elbow up". We don't. But others can think whatever they want. I will explain what we do and that's the end of it. Only an idiot knowingly argues with an idiot. I really have nothing more to add to this thread.



The operative word is "elbow points downward", not a stretch to phrase it as "elbow stays down".  So in reality, the WC elbow will stay pointed down but will shift upward vertically (ever slightly) with any upward punch passes the horizontal plan ... as some had repeatedly pointed out ... biomechanics.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Depends on where the arc stops.  Doesn't it?


Actually, it would matter where it starts and which direction it goes. If it is rotating, that motion contains either a forward vector or a backward (okay, technically a negative forward) vector. For any punching motion, the fist is moving forward, so the upper arm is rotating upward (assuming an elbow-down orientation). That rotation has an upward vector and a forward vector.



> Come on, man.  If you're getting so nitpicky for the one side, you have to do the same for the other.  Both sides are arguing semantics, which was my overly subtle point when I commented about the rotation of the arm around the shoulder.



I admittedly haven't actually read all of the arguments on the other side, Steve (I do that on a lot of threads - I don't have time to read all the posts, so I try to follow portions). I started watching this because I was hoping to pick up some new terminology and new ways of expressing principles. A claim was made that I saw as outrageous, so I challenged it. From that point, I've pretty much stuck to reading posts I felt were related to that claim.



> Regarding this demonstrably false thing, once again, I can extend my arm in a punching motion without raising the elbow.  I'm not not extending the arm (double negative intentional).  It's a punching motion.  Have you tried it on the table?  It's pretty easy presuming you have a table handy... and an arm.


I didn't actually need to try it. I know it can be done. A partial punching motion, however, is not the same as a punch, and is certainly not the same as all of their punches. And since the claim was made that their punch doesn't allow the elbow to rise (and they've been unwilling to post an example of such to show me where I am misunderstanding what they mean. Without any explanation or evidence to the contrary, I have to assume their punches work essentially like every other punch. There's plenty of evidence they don't fight within 3 fist-lengths all the time nor do they only punch a gut level, so they would have punches that don't conform to that experiment.


----------



## Steve

Juany118 said:


> Here is a video showing the WC punch.  The torso is a lot more locked down than other styles.  You put some shoulder and hip action, into it but leaning should only happen if your structure is disturbed.  I still get talked to on occasion by my side for leaning.
> 
> 
> The elbow clearly rises in relation to the surface the Sifu is standing on.  To make matters even more confusing WSL, the founder of WSLPB-VT, is shown on this thread throwing punches with the elbow rising.  NI went so far as to draw lines so you can more readily see the rise.  So if a video like this shows it, plus photos of WSL, yet people say "it doesn't happen, why because I said so" it causes a touch of consternation.


I think your position is very clear.  I get it. 

Couple of things stand out.  First, is there one WC punch?  I get the impression that there are differences of opinion on that one.

Second, isn't there a difference between saying that something doesn't happen (as you say above) and that something is impossible in the natural world because bio-mechanics and physics?  Particularly when a simple experiment using a desk and one's own arm can show otherwise?

The idea of whether they punch like that is kind of moot, IMO.  I mean, if LFJ says they punch that way, and you don't train in his school, what's the problem?  he's not going to go to your school (I hope) and make you change your technique.  Even with video evidence.  Seriously, I've seen some really bad WC anti-grappling around here, and when they say, "Yeah, but that's not REAL anti-grappling.  We don't ACTUALLY train that way," at some point you just have to shrug your shoulders and move on.


----------



## wtxs

LFJ said:


> This is the video he captured the still from.
> 
> PB is doing _faak-sau_ throughout the clip to check the students' _wu-sau_.
> 
> As he says, "_Wu-sau_, _wu-sau_, _wu-sau_. The problem is... _wu-sau_".



At 0:17 - :019 elbow stays down ... rise as the right goes up and forward.

Elbow rise and elbow stays down = apple and oranges = debate of dissimilar ideas.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Actually, it would matter where it starts and which direction it goes. If it is rotating, that motion contains either a forward vector or a backward (okay, technically a negative forward) vector. For any punching motion, the fist is moving forward, so the upper arm is rotating upward (assuming an elbow-down orientation). That rotation has an upward vector and a forward vector.


You're killing me.  Negative forward vectors?  





> I admittedly haven't actually read all of the arguments on the other side, Steve (I do that on a lot of threads - I don't have time to read all the posts, so I try to follow portions). I started watching this because I was hoping to pick up some new terminology and new ways of expressing principles. A claim was made that I saw as outrageous, so I challenged it. From that point, I've pretty much stuck to reading posts I felt were related to that claim.


I've been following this feud for a while, and have enjoyed the back and forth bickering.  Both sides have demonstrated a remarkable degree of stamina.  I'm a generally curious guy, so I like reading the threads, and while some of these get so technical I can't follow the specifics, the arguments make it worthwhile.  It's like watching a telenovella in Spanish.  I don't speak Spanish, but I still enjoy watching the show.





> I didn't actually need to try it. I know it can be done. A partial punching motion, however, is not the same as a punch, and is certainly not the same as all of their punches.


It's not what I would call a partial punching motion.  I mean, my arm can get very close to fully extended.  The elbow isn't locked out, but it's within a few degrees.  





> And since the claim was made that their punch doesn't allow the elbow to rise (and they've been unwilling to post an example of such to show me where I am misunderstanding what they mean. Without any explanation or evidence to the contrary, I have to assume their punches work essentially like every other punch. There's plenty of evidence they don't fight within 3 fist-lengths all the time nor do they only punch a gut level, so they would have punches that don't conform to that experiment.


3 fist lengths is hyperbolic.  I'll leave the rest to the experts.  All I can say with any confidence is that it feels like a punching motion when I slide my elbow along the table.


----------



## Steve

wtxs said:


> At 0:17 - :019 elbow stays down ... rise as the right goes up and forward.
> 
> Elbow rise and elbow stays down = apple and oranges = *debate of dissimilar ideas*.


that's been my working theory for 16 pages.


----------



## Juany118

Steve said:


> I think your position is very clear.  I get it.
> 
> Couple of things stand out.  First, is there one WC punch?  I get the impression that there are differences of opinion on that one.
> 
> Second, isn't there a difference between saying that something doesn't happen (as you say above) and that something is impossible in the natural world because bio-mechanics and physics?  Particularly when a simple experiment using a desk and one's own arm can show otherwise?
> 
> The idea of whether they punch like that is kind of moot, IMO.  I mean, if LFJ says they punch that way, and you don't train in his school, what's the problem?  he's not going to go to your school (I hope) and make you change your technique.  Even with video evidence.  Seriously, I've seen some really bad WC anti-grappling around here, and when they say, "Yeah, but that's not REAL anti-grappling.  We don't ACTUALLY train that way," at some point you just have to shrug your shoulders and move on.



The straight punch mechanic is pretty much the bread and butter punch and the same arm mechanic is also used with palm strikes.  Some Lineages (like mine) have a "Buffalo punch" where the elbow is oriented sideways and the fist is vertical, but clearly that is a different mechanic entirely, but the straight punch is very much standardized.  Here is a video of the first form.  This teaches you the basic mechanics of the hand and arm movements, part of which is training the elbow movement not only in terms of forwarding energy but it's relationship to the centerline.


----------



## wtxs

Nobody Important said:


> Yes this whole discussion is ignorant, I take my share of the blame. What I can't understand is why so many allow LFJ and Guy B. to continue to bully without calling them out on their BS.



Don't be so hard on your self, we ALL fall for their game.  

IF no one respond to their post or very one use the IGNORE button, mayyy be they will go away.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> I admittedly haven't actually read all of the arguments on the other side,



Then stop trolling.



> partial punching motion, however, is not the same as a punch,



It is the full arm action of the punch.



> There's plenty of evidence they don't fight within 3 fist-lengths all the time nor do they only punch a gut level, so they would have punches that don't conform to that experiment.



The experiment was face level, if you read it. Over-extension is out of range for VT punching.


----------



## Juany118

wtxs said:


> At 0:17 - :019 elbow stays down ... rise as the right goes up and forward.
> 
> Elbow rise and elbow stays down = apple and oranges = debate of dissimilar ideas.



I initially felt this at first.  Do they think we are saying the elbow doesnt remain oriented down?  Do they think we are somehow not focusing on the idea that you picture the elbow as moving "forward" when we punch and instead picture it rising?

The thing is a few times it was clarified, the elbow remains oriented down as it moves forward and the rising isn't a change in orientation, rather a movement through space that is only a consequence of the nature of the joint.  So with that clarification made insisting the elbow stays down and doesn't rise makes little sense, but admittedly I can be anal retentive when focusing on little details.


----------



## wtxs

LFJ said:


> Same as WSL and YM.
> 
> Look at the image NI made. Is his elbow down? Yes. Is it only a fist away from his body? No.



Is his elbow down? Yes.  Is his elbow raised from its original position?  Yes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> You're killing me.  Negative forward vectors?


Physics geek.


> I've been following this feud for a while, and have enjoyed the back and forth bickering.  Both sides have demonstrated a remarkable degree of stamina.  I'm a generally curious guy, so I like reading the threads, and while some of these get so technical I can't follow the specifics, the arguments make it worthwhile.  It's like watching a telenovella in Spanish.  I don't speak Spanish, but I still enjoy watching the show.


I can understand that.


> It's not what I would call a partial punching motion.  I mean, my arm can get very close to fully extended.  The elbow isn't locked out, but it's within a few degrees.  3 fist lengths is hyperbolic.  I'll leave the rest to the experts.  All I can say with any confidence is that it feels like a punching motion when I slide my elbow along the table.



Hmm, I'm picturing something different, then. If your arm starts at any angle, and you extend the fist forward, unless you drop the shoulder (either on its own or by lowering the entire body) while moving the fist, the elbow must rise. That's the mechanics of the rotation. From 90 degrees, I can get about 3 fist-lengths forward (the forward vector exceeds the upward vector). From 45 degrees, even less (the forward vector is exceeded by the upward vector beyond that point). Mind you, I'm trying to keep the elbow exactly in contact with the surface, so as soon as I feel it coming away from the surface I call it done. The only way I can go from any significant angle to any significant extension is if I start with my elbow higher than normal (shoulder shoved up by the supporting surface).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Then stop trolling.
> 
> 
> 
> It is the full arm action of the punch.
> 
> 
> 
> The experiment was face level, if you read it. Over-extension is out of range for VT punching.


You do realize that by "the other side", Steve wasn't referring to you, right? And so, neither was I. I was referring to the side besides that with which I was carrying on my conversation. I've read all of yours, and they're getting amusing.


----------



## wtxs

Juany118 said:


> I initially felt this at first.  Do they think we are saying the elbow doesnt remain oriented down?  Do they think we are somehow not focusing on the idea that you picture the elbow as moving "forward" when we punch and instead picture it rising?
> 
> The thing is a few times it was clarified, the elbow remains oriented down as it moves forward and the rising isn't a change in orientation, rather a movement through space that is only a consequence of the nature of the joint.  So with that clarification made insisting the elbow stays down and doesn't rise makes little sense, but admittedly I can be anal retentive when focusing on little details.



I feel you pain man


----------



## LFJ

wtxs said:


> Is his elbow down? Yes.  Is his elbow raised from its original position?  Yes.



Did I ever argue otherwise? No.



wtxs said:


> At 0:17 - :019 elbow stays down ... rise as the right goes up and forward.
> 
> Elbow rise and elbow stays down = apple and oranges = debate of dissimilar ideas.



The elbow never rises above shoulder level, nor does it rise to close the triangle between the shoulder, fist, and elbow (full extension, popping elbow up).

This is what I have been comparing the entire thread long. Doing this, versus raising the elbow above shoulder level, or allowing it to rise to close the triangle, as NI described for his basic punch.

It doesn't matter to what level we punch, the elbow stays down. Not just oriented downward, down in relation to the shoulder and fist. It does not rise from the low position of the triangle.

What you guys are arguing against is a very stupid strawman about the elbow not ascending with the triangle.

Some of you have argued that the elbow cannot remain on the same horizontal plane while the arm is extended in a punch. That is demonstrably false and proven by the experiment I presented.

Does that mean the elbow will never ascend? No! But even as it ascends, the triangle is maintained. The elbow does not rise (in relation to the triangle or above shoulder level).

Please tell me you all can put your braincells together and understand this time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b said:


> In VT the elbow does not rise





gpseymour said:


> Simply not mechanically possible with an arm. Show me a single video of an actual punch where the elbow stays on the same horizontal plane, without it being winged out to the side, without it being a false punch (no arm movement involved at all), and without it being a downward punch.





LFJ said:


> If I punch forward, the elbow moves forward and stays down.



This was a progression. Since I was addressing the statement by Guy that the elbow doesn't rise from the original horizontal plane (not the same thing as your current assertion that it remains pointing down), why did you feel the need to jump in and attempt to correct me if that wasn't your assertion, as well?


----------



## wtxs

LFJ said:


> Does that mean the elbow will never ascend? No! But even as it ascends, the triangle is maintained. The elbow does not rise (in relation to the triangle or above shoulder level).



Does this mean you conceded?


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> If your arm starts at any angle, and you extend the fist forward, unless you drop the shoulder (either on its own or by lowering the entire body) while moving the fist, the elbow must rise.



That will happen if you lead with the wrist. Keep the mind back in the elbow and drive the punch.

You act as if keeping the shoulder down is somehow disqualifying. Why? You are applying arbitrary rules to a punch you haven't learned?

My shoulder doesn't drop. I just extend the punch, driving from the elbow, and I get all the extension needed in a VT punch for the range at which I'll be throwing or landing it. It is a significant extension. Enough to put a lot of power into it when it's got momentum and body mass behind it.


----------



## Juany118

gpseymour said:


> This was a progression. Since I was addressing the statement by Guy that the elbow doesn't rise from the original horizontal plane (not the same thing as your current assertion that it remains pointing down), why did you feel the need to jump in and attempt to correct me if that wasn't your assertion, as well?


That wasn't just your issue it was the issue everyone had, so in essence an argument for how many pages where suddenly the assertion isn't made?  Yet when I mentioned a specific experiment to illustrate the point it was derided as "rockem sockem?". Photos with lines illustrating the rise of the elbow in physical space denigrated?   

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> I was addressing the statement by Guy that the elbow doesn't rise from the original horizontal plane



He never made that claim.

He and I both know how the VT punch works. We were always talking about the same thing. Not rising means not going above shoulder level, and not rising from the low position of the triangle.

It can remain on the same horizontal plane, or ascend with the triangle, but not rise in relation to it, closing the triangle or going above the shoulder.



wtxs said:


> Does this mean you conceded?



Conceded what? I have never held the position of your strawman. Please quote where you think I have.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> That will happen if you lead with the wrist. Keep the mind back in the elbow and drive the punch.
> 
> You act as if keeping the shoulder down is somehow disqualifying. Why? You are applying arbitrary rules to a punch you haven't learned?
> 
> My shoulder doesn't drop. I just extend the punch, driving from the elbow, and I get all the extension needed in a VT punch for the range at which I'll be throwing or landing it. It is a significant extension. Enough to put a lot of power into it when it's got momentum and body mass behind it.


That will happen if the hand moves forward. I'm not sure what you mean by "lead with the wrist". From a physical standpoint, the wrist comes slightly behind the hand in a punch, so I tend to lead with the knuckles that will strike. I didn't say anything about "keeping the shoulder down". I referred to dropping the shoulder further down during the punch. For a full-range punch (a foot or two) it would require a huge drop of the shoulder (many inches). Again, if you are just saying the elbow doesn't rise much, that's a different statement than the one you stepped in to defend. If you are claiming you can actually punch more than 5-6 inches or at anything above rib height, I'd need to see a video to know what you're talking about. I've asked for one to support the discussion in this same thread, and received not even a response.

Now, if you're combining a relatively short punch, dropping the shoulder, punching low, and a movement of the body, that's a lot of movement and compensation to avoid an elbow movement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> He never made that claim.
> 
> He and I both know how the VT punch works. We were always talking about the same thing. Not rising means not going above shoulder level, and not rising from the low position of the triangle.
> 
> It can remain on the same horizontal plane, or ascend with the triangle, but not rise in relation to it, closing the triangle or going above the shoulder.



So, when I was talking about the fact that it will change horizontal planes, why were both you and he arguing with me? I was clearly NOT talking about the elbow mechanically needing to come above the elbow. None of the arguments about mechanics could possibly have meant that it's impossible to punch without the elbow rising above the shoulder (except for extremes, like a near-full extension on a punch to someone much taller). Yet, you both continued to assert that the statements made weren't consistent with your punch.

Clearly, you were either arguing that the elbow doesn't rise, at all, or you didn't understand the arguments being made. I don't see a third option, given your adamant statements attempting to contradict explanations of the hinging of the arm.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "lead with the wrist".



It means mind forward at the wrist/fist, leading the elbow to follow. 

The mind should be back at the elbow, driving the fist forward.



> I referred to dropping the shoulder further down during the punch. For a full-range punch (a foot or two) it would require a huge drop of the shoulder (many inches). Again, if you are just saying the elbow doesn't rise much, that's a different statement than the one you stepped in to defend. If you are claiming you can actually punch more than 5-6 inches or at anything above rib height, I'd need to see a video to know what you're talking about. I've asked for one to support the discussion in this same thread, and received not even a response.
> 
> Now, if you're combining a relatively short punch, dropping the shoulder, punching low, and a movement of the body, that's a lot of movement and compensation to avoid an elbow movement.



I don't know how you're screwing it up that badly then.

Fist is face height, shoulder doesn't drop, especially not "many inches", elbow extends a good 20cm for me. It doesn't require any special movement or anything. Just slide your arm out, driving from the elbow.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> It means mind forward at the wrist/fist, leading the elbow to follow.
> 
> The mind should be back at the elbow, driving the fist forward.


That's an interesting concept. I'd love to chat about that sometime. A different approach to the principles of punching. Physically, I don't see any difference in it, but it reflects a different conceptual approach.



> Fist is face height, shoulder doesn't drop, especially not "many inches", elbow extends a good 20cm for me. It doesn't require any special movement or anything. Just slide your arm out, driving from the elbow.


If you do that, the elbow will rise a bit if the fist is further from the shoulder than it started. It's geometry.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> So, when I was talking about the fact that it will change horizontal planes, why were both you and he arguing with me?



Because the VT punch can be executed perfectly fine without the elbow ascending from the original horizontal plane, as demonstrated in the experiment. The elbow can ascend with the triangle if targeting higher, but doesn't pop up or exceed shoulder level.



> None of the arguments about mechanics could possibly have meant that it's impossible to punch without the elbow rising above the shoulder (except for extremes, like a near-full extension on a punch to someone much taller). Yet, you both continued to assert that the statements made weren't consistent with your punch.



Shoulder being the lowest point along a line of attack was a description NI gave of his basic punch way back on page 3 or so.

I don't know when all of you decided to start attacking a stupid strawman.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> That's an interesting concept. I'd love to chat about that sometime. A different approach to the principles of punching. Physically, I don't see any difference in it, but it reflects a different conceptual approach.



It's subtle, but has major consequences on overall strategy and tactics.



> If you do that, the elbow will rise a bit if the fist is further from the shoulder than it started. It's geometry.



No, it won't, and no, it's not. I suggest you go try out some VT if you can't figure it out.


----------



## geezer

...


LFJ said:


> It's subtle ... I suggest you go try out some VT if you can't figure it out.



_This_ is what it all really boils down to.  People will argue till hell freezes over, ...me included. But I will only really get what you are saying if I can spend some time studying your branch of VT.

Unfortunately, I don't think anybody around here does your lineage. ...and I'm plenty challenged with what I do now .


----------



## LFJ

geezer said:


> I will only really get what you are saying if I can spend some time studying your branch of VT.



I guess so, although, Steve seemed to figure it out just fine, but he wasn't coming with a bias.

The only thing I can think of that would screw the experiment up is not setting up right, having the surface too low to begin with, requiring a drastic drop of the shoulder or stance to stay on it.

It should start with your elbow naturally where it'd be in a punch-ready position off the table. Fist face level, elbow one fist's distance from the body, then just drive the elbow forward. Pretty simple, I thought.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> Because the VT punch can be executed perfectly fine without the elbow ascending from the original horizontal plane, as demonstrated in the experiment. The elbow can ascend with the triangle if targeting higher, but doesn't pop up or exceed shoulder level.
> 
> 
> 
> Shoulder being the lowest point along a line of attack was a description NI gave of his basic punch way back on page 3 or so.
> 
> I don't know when all of you decided to start attacking a stupid strawman.


I did address that "above the shoulder" at a couple of points. If you don't punch very high or very far (or, particularly, both), then the elbow can easily stay below the shoulder. I can see how by only punching from a near distance you'd be able to keep your elbow below your shoulder even when striking to the head of someone your own size. If they are significantly taller, you'd have to abandon hitting the head, but that's doable.

As for not ascending from the horizontal plane, when I see an example of an actual punch, I'll discuss that further. The "experiment" is not a punch - just a movement of the arm purposely designed to keep the elbow down. It lacks anything approaching punching power.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> It's subtle, but has major consequences on overall strategy and tactics.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it won't, and no, it's not. I suggest you go try out some VT if you can't figure it out.


You've given nothing to show that it's at all possible given the geometry. You just keep saying the same thing over and over, without providing any evidence, aside from a purely theoretical experiment that requires a slow movement of other parts of the body to work (shoulder must drop during the movement to adjust the geometry). I've asked at least 4 times for an actual video. I'm assuming at this point that the lack of a response is because one isn't available, anywhere.


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> If they are significantly taller, you'd have to abandon hitting the head, but that's doable.



You can reach the chin of someone a whole head taller than you without the elbow exceeding shoulder level, especially as fighting stances and dynamics tend to lower their center, bringing their head more into range, not to mention your own tactics.



> As for not ascending from the horizontal plane, when I see an example of an actual punch, I'll discuss that further. The "experiment" is not a punch - just a movement of the arm purposely designed to keep the elbow down. It lacks anything approaching punching power.



The punch is purposefully designed to keep the elbow down!

So, step away from the table and throw the same punch with whole body power. Duh.



gpseymour said:


> You've given nothing to show that it's at all possible given the geometry. You just keep saying the same thing over and over, without providing any evidence, aside from a purely theoretical experiment that requires a slow movement of other parts of the body to work (shoulder must drop during the movement to adjust the geometry). I've asked at least 4 times for an actual video. I'm assuming at this point that the lack of a response is because one isn't available, anywhere.



The shoulder is kept down, but doesn't drop, especially not several inches. If Steve could figure it out, other people can as well. I don't know what your malfunction is, but I'm not gonna make an instructional video for you. Just go check out a VT school if interested.


----------



## Steve

I just wish you guys knew how happy this thread makes me.


----------



## LFJ

Steve said:


> I just wish you guys knew how happy this thread makes me.



Nice clip of Juany and NI _chi-sau_ing. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> You can reach the chin of someone a whole head taller than you without the elbow exceeding shoulder level, especially as fighting stances and dynamics tend to lower their center, bringing their head more into range, not to mention your own tactics.


Okay, bringing their head down to range is clearly not the same thing. At that point, they are no longer a head taller. Unless they are very close (and that may be the range you guys choose for that strike), hitting to their face level will necessitate the elbow rising that high. There are ways to change the scenario, but then you're arguing a different scenario.



> The punch is purposefully designed to keep the elbow down!
> 
> So, step away from the table and throw the same punch with whole body power. Duh.
> 
> The shoulder is kept down, but doesn't drop, especially not several inches. If Steve could figure it out, other people can as well. I don't know what your malfunction is, but I'm not gonna make an instructional video for you. Just go check out a VT school if interested.



Steve did comment he wasn't sure it was an effective punch. I'm fairly certain it isn't, unless you've left something out of the description that would come into play in the actual punch. It's still a demonstration of a single movement. Why not show a video? Why is that impossible?


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> Okay, bringing their head down to range is clearly not the same thing. At that point, they are no longer a head taller. Unless they are very close (and that may be the range you guys choose for that strike), hitting to their face level will necessitate the elbow rising that high. There are ways to change the scenario, but then you're arguing a different scenario.



I said "especially", meaning what came after that is not necessary.



> Steve did comment he wasn't sure it was an effective punch. I'm fairly certain it isn't, unless you've left something out of the description that would come into play in the actual punch. It's still a demonstration of a single movement. Why not show a video? Why is that impossible?



Momentum and body mass, obviously.

But you can't even figure out how to do it, so I'm definitely certain whatever contortion you're doing with your body wouldn't make an effective punch.

If you think a VT punch is ineffective, again, visit a VT school and have a shot.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

LFJ said:


> I said "especially", meaning what came after that is not necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> Momentum and body mass, obviously.
> 
> But you can't even figure out how to do it, so I'm definitely certain whatever contortion you're doing with your body wouldn't make an effective punch.
> 
> If you think a VT punch is ineffective, again, visit a VT school and have a shot.


Still no reply at all about the video?


----------



## LFJ

gpseymour said:


> Still no reply at all about the video?



Did I not say I'm not making an instructional video for you, or did I not?

I think we're done here. Go to a VT school if interested in learning further. If not, don't.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Okay, bringing their head down to range is clearly not the same thing. At that point, they are no longer a head taller. Unless they are very close (and that may be the range you guys choose for that strike), hitting to their face level will necessitate the elbow rising that high. There are ways to change the scenario, but then you're arguing a different scenario.
> 
> Steve did comment he wasn't sure it was an effective punch. I'm fairly certain it isn't, unless you've left something out of the description that would come into play in the actual punch. It's still a demonstration of a single movement. Why not show a video? Why is that impossible?


For what it's worth, when I approximated a punching motion while keeping my elbow in contact with the table, it didn't feel completely awkward.  I just don't want to get too far afield, and mislead anyone.   I don't know if it's an ideal punching motion, because that's not my forte.  But I can see where, if someone trained in it, and there was a way to engage more than just the arm, you can generate some power.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Still no reply at all about the video?


Hey guys.  Seriously.  Not all great training is on YouTube.  didn't you say this just a bit ago?  What's this weird obsession with video?


----------



## Steve

LFJ said:


> Did I not say I'm not making an instructional video for you, or did I not?
> 
> I think we're done here. Go to a VT school if interested in learning further. If not, don't.


Wait.   Did you not or did you not?  Is the answer yes, you did not, or no, you did not did not?  I'm lost.  Are you making a video?  Please don't answer with a number.


----------



## geezer

LFJ said:


> I guess so, although, Steve seemed to figure it out just fine, but he wasn't coming with a bias.
> 
> The only thing I can think of that would screw the experiment up is not setting up right, having the surface too low to begin with, requiring a drastic drop of the shoulder or stance to stay on it.
> 
> It should start with your elbow naturally where it'd be in a punch-ready position off the table. Fist face level, elbow one fist's distance from the body, then just drive the elbow forward. Pretty simple, I thought.



Yeah, I'm trying it sitting here at my desk and it seems to work as you describe it. I just wish you could have explained it so clearly at the beginning rather than getting involved in that long back and forth with the other guys. It was frustrating to read, even as a bystander.


----------



## guy b.

Juany118 said:


> I initially felt this at first.  Do they think we are saying the elbow doesnt remain oriented down?  Do they think we are somehow not focusing on the idea that you picture the elbow as moving "forward" when we punch and instead picture it rising?
> 
> The thing is a few times it was clarified, the elbow remains oriented down as it moves forward and the rising isn't a change in orientation, rather a movement through space that is only a consequence of the nature of the joint.  So with that clarification made insisting the elbow stays down and doesn't rise makes little sense, but admittedly I can be anal retentive when focusing on little details.



Elbow over shoulder as NI is rising elbow. Elbow pops up = mistake, not VT


----------



## Juany118

gpseymour said:


> Still no reply at all about the video?



The video I linked shows how to do a "standard" WC straight punch.  As far as I can recall the action of the punch (in terms of arm movement) is consistent across all the YM lineages.  There are differences in terms of preferred stance, but the "punch" itself is the same.


----------



## guy b.

LFJ said:


> Did I ever argue otherwise? No.
> 
> 
> 
> The elbow never rises above shoulder level, nor does it rise to close the triangle between the shoulder, fist, and elbow (full extension, popping elbow up).
> 
> This is what I have been comparing the entire thread long. Doing this, versus raising the elbow above shoulder level, or allowing it to rise to close the triangle, as NI described for his basic punch.
> 
> It doesn't matter to what level we punch, the elbow stays down. Not just oriented downward, down in relation to the shoulder and fist. It does not rise from the low position of the triangle.
> 
> What you guys are arguing against is a very stupid strawman about the elbow not ascending with the triangle.
> 
> Some of you have argued that the elbow cannot remain on the same horizontal plane while the arm is extended in a punch. That is demonstrably false and proven by the experiment I presented.
> 
> Does that mean the elbow will never ascend? No! But even as it ascends, the triangle is maintained. The elbow does not rise (in relation to the triangle or above shoulder level).
> 
> Please tell me you all can put your braincells together and understand this time.



Good post. 

Hard to believe this was not understood on a VT forum


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> This was a progression. Since I was addressing the statement by Guy that the elbow doesn't rise from the original horizontal plane (not the same thing as your current assertion that it remains pointing down), why did you feel the need to jump in and attempt to correct me if that wasn't your assertion, as well?



Elbow rising is elbow popping up. Standard VT terminology


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> So, when I was talking about the fact that it will change horizontal planes, why were both you and he arguing with me? I was clearly NOT talking about the elbow mechanically needing to come above the elbow.



Since you were supporting NI's strong positive assertion that the elbow rises above the shoulder, it is hard to see what else you were talking about?

In VT rising elbow is as LFJ explained- elbow popping up above shoulder or closing the triangle. Elbow is always down in VT. I am sorry you don't understand VT. Not sure why you feel a need to argue about it


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> That's an interesting concept. I'd love to chat about that sometime



Maybe need to change your desire to always be right first


----------



## guy b.

LFJ said:


> Shoulder being the lowest point along a line of attack was a description NI gave of his basic punch way back on page 3 or so.
> 
> I don't know when all of you decided to start attacking a stupid strawman.



Exactly

NI is someone that obviously doesn't do wing chun of any kind. The basic technical detail is just lacking. It is a troll. 

Really odd that people on a wing chun forum would disregard this obvious fact in order to launch personal attacks


----------



## Transk53

LFJ said:


> I said "especially", meaning what came after that is not necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> *Momentum and body mass, obviously.*
> 
> But you can't even figure out how to do it, so I'm definitely certain whatever contortion you're doing with your body wouldn't make an effective punch.
> 
> If you think a VT punch is ineffective, again, visit a VT school and have a shot.



Maybe you could vid the VT punch, rather than hide behind a collection. Actually genuinely curious here.


----------



## Transk53

guy b. said:


> Maybe need to change your desire to always be right first



Actual fighters are always right, it is the choices that count.


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> I did address that "above the shoulder" at a couple of points. If you don't punch very high or very far (or, particularly, both), then the elbow can easily stay below the shoulder. I can see how by only punching from a near distance you'd be able to keep your elbow below your shoulder even when striking to the head of someone your own size. If they are significantly taller, you'd have to abandon hitting the head, but that's doable.



That's VT!

No you wouldn't have to abandon hitting the head. 



gpseymour said:


> As for not ascending from the horizontal plane, when I see an example of an actual punch, I'll discuss that further. The "experiment" is not a punch - just a movement of the arm purposely designed to keep the elbow down. It lacks anything approaching punching power.



I'm guessing you have not spent any time attampting to develop punching power in this way, so why comment?


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> You've given nothing to show that it's at all possible given the geometry. You just keep saying the same thing over and over, without providing any evidence



Use brain. Stop assuming you thought of everything already


----------



## Transk53

guy b. said:


> That's VT!
> 
> No you wouldn't have to abandon hitting the head.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you have not spent any time attampting to develop punching power in this way, so why comment?



You can't develop punching power, you just hone what you are born with. Irrespective of whatever technique.


----------



## guy b.

geezer said:


> Yeah, I'm trying it sitting here at my desk and it seems to work as you describe it. I just wish you could have explained it so clearly at the beginning rather than getting involved in that long back and forth with the other guys. It was frustrating to read, even as a bystander.



It is also frustrating to be trolled on a VT forum by people who don't do VT

GP Seymour: no VT experience but always 100% sure he is correct about VT. On what basis?

NI: obvious non-wing chun troll who thinks elbow pops up above shoulder and doesn't recognise faak sau. Would be funny if self-confessed wing chun practitioners didn't buy it, but they lap it up for reasons of personal grievance and hurt pride. It is like watching a slow motion car crash with nobody applying the brakes 

It is the sheer slowness, combativeness, and inability to follow an argument that makes sharing info here difficult. A bit more trust and a bit less hubris would go a long way


----------



## Juany118

guy b. said:


> Elbow over shoulder as NI is rising elbow. Elbow pops up = mistake, not VT




Ummm my main point throughout was simply when I punch straight, while the elbow remains pointed down it will rise in the intervening space in relation to what you are standing on, even while it remains oriented down, kinda like in this video of WSL, which was chosen for shortness not video quality.






The only thing I would say is that while rare there are times where the elbow may have to rise over the shoulder.  That isn't preferred for any punching system, this is not a WC/VT exclusive and it kinda kills me that anyone is saying "I can't believe this is a VT forum" when this is a rule for punching period as it results in a less efficient transfer of power for any punch.

That said if you get stuck in a "never ever ever ever ever can you do something" to much you are begging for issues.  I tend to say "there are Laws and then their are Rules."  Laws should not be broken under any circumstance, a Rule however can be bent if the circumstances _require_ it.

Forget a size difference between a man and a woman.  Here is a photo from a period of aggressive patrols we did a few years ago after a homicide (yes we tend to play "officer friendly" when the people we stop are just being silly 20 somethings)






now imagine if the officer @ middle front was fighting someone of the size of the officer standing behind him.  He might well find himself forced to have that elbow go over the shoulder, even if only a little bit, unless the taller subject is stupid and basically bends forward so he can be punched in the face.  You will try to compensate, perhaps get in closer so that the angle of the elbow can allow the fist to make contact without going that high, try to set him up so he drops lower excreta. In the end though you may damn well have to see that elbow go a tad over the shoulder and WC is not so inflexible as to deny this reality imo.

The minute a system says "thought shalt not do this" in so draconian a fashion it stops being a combat art and becomes performance art imo.  Slowly but surely, saddly, that is what WC/VT is becoming since the number of Sifu's who use/used the art in real world "anger" are becoming fewer and fewer.  Without that experience rules for training become inviolate law and in doing so basically beg for the student to end up in a hurt locker.


----------



## guy b.

Juany118 said:


> it kinda kills me that anyone is saying "I can't believe this is a VT forum" when this is a rule for punching period as it results in a less efficient transfer of power for any punch.



Take it up with Nobody Important who suggested that wing chun punches are done this way.


----------



## Juany118

guy b. said:


> Take it up with Nobody Important who suggested that wing chun punches are done this way.



I didn't interpret it that way.  I saw him  saying, in a more brief version than I admittedly, that there are times when you have to and that the system permits this, even if it is not optimal.


----------



## Flying Crane

some of you guys shouldn't even be on the same planet with each other, much less interacting on an Internet forum.


----------



## guy b.

Juany118 said:


> I didn't interpret it that way.  I saw him  saying, in a more brief version than I admittedly, that there are times when you have to and that the system permits this, even if it is not optimal.



You interpreted wrong, presumably due to bias and inability to ever admit error

This is what he said:



			
				Nobody Important said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter if you punch up or down. To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain.
> 
> At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height and at low level shoulder will be highest and wrist at lowest.



NI is saying explicitly that the elbow pops up in the wing chun punch, and that triangle not maintained, which is crazy from the point of view any kind of wing chun


----------



## Juany118

guy b. said:


> You interpreted wrong, presumably due to bias and inability to ever admit error
> 
> This is what he said:
> 
> 
> 
> NI is saying explicitly that the elbow pops up in the wing chun punch, and that triangle not maintained, which is crazy from the point of view any kind of wing chun




well, and this will be my last thing I suspect.  There he is speaking only about how the elbow operates as a hinge joint, it has nothing to do with WC as an individual art.  

In essence the elbow, while oriented "down", "rises" perpendicularly to the direction of the punch as the fist gets further from the shoulder.  You can be punching "down" and the shoulder will be the highest point, if "up" high enough the shoulder will be the lowest (if you go to full extension), etc.  However regardless of the angle the elbow moves "up" perpendicular to the direction of the punch.  

That quote doesn't say "WC/VT does this, it says "this is how an elbow works.  That's it and nothing more.  Unless you can produce something that changes the context that is how I read that from the initial post.


----------



## guy b.

Juany118 said:


> There he is speaking only about how the elbow operates as a hinge joint
> 
> That quote doesn't say "WC/VT does this, it says "this is how an elbow works.  That's it and nothing more.  Unless you can produce something that changes the context that is how I read that from the initial post.



Nope, he is specifically talking about popping up the elbow and flattening the triangle in wing chun in answer to you talking about wing chun, i.e. complete nonsense. 

His post quotes yours below:



			
				Juany said:
			
		

> Maybe the fact is missed that if you are average height striking someone in the face of similar height, your wrist will be higher than the shoulder, because well the head is higher than the shoulder, is somehow missed? Either that or he doesn't think WC takes head shots





			
				Nobody Important said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter if you punch up or down.To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain.
> 
> At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height



This answer about WC is completely wrong on all counts.

Elbow popped up to align arm bones in wing chun punch? No

High level punch will have shoulder at lowest point? No

Mid level punch shoulder, elbow and wrist will be on same level? No

100% nonsense, not a WC practitioner


----------



## Juany118

guy b. said:


> Nope, he is specifically talking about popping up the elbow and flattening the triangle in wing chun in answer to you talking about wing chun, i.e. complete nonsense.
> 
> His post quotes yours below:


I posted the photo I posted to clarify the circumstance when such a punch is engaged, since my description of the 5' female I used to work with was ignored..  Ergo you say, in a fight for your life, if the size difference between those two is the fact, your don't punch above the shoulder?  You in essence say "nope, not hitting the target that will have the most effect to save my life because...well because."  There is no adaption to circumstance, to the size of your opponent?  

You seem to be doing your typical "focus on individual statements ignoring context."  This really was my last response.


----------



## anerlich

guy b. said:


> It is also frustrating to be trolled on a VT forum by people who don't do VT



Yeah. I only want to be trolled by VT practitioners.


----------



## LFJ

Jeezlouise! Juany just cannot stand to be wrong, can he?! What an ego. Just drop it already.


----------



## Nobody Important

guy b. said:


> Nope, he is specifically talking about popping up the elbow and flattening the triangle in wing chun in answer to you talking about wing chun, i.e. complete nonsense.
> 
> His post quotes yours below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This answer about WC is completely wrong on all counts.
> 
> Elbow popped up to align arm bones in wing chun punch? No
> 
> High level punch will have shoulder at lowest point? No
> 
> Mid level punch shoulder, elbow and wrist will be on same level? No
> 
> 100% nonsense, not a WC practitioner


The remark was in the context of how the arm operates as Juany said. It was a generalization about the action of punching. At no point did I ever stress VT punching specifically. It was used to illustrate the mechanics of the arm in reference to striking at different levels of height with full extension. Specifically, it was about a high level inner gate strike, that without full extension of the arm, wouldn't work. The idea that full extension of WC punches was commonplace in YCWWC, was superimposed by you & LFJ as a point of contention to normal WC punching. I never said it was. I also stated several times that the inner gate strike could be performed with other actions, such as, Biu Sau or yes, even Faak Sau, both of which in YCWWC use full extension of the arm with the elbow higher than shoulder. The discussion was never relegated on my part to the exclusive use of your VT punch. I don't know WSLVT, so how could I reference your punching method. I only used PB and WSL images to illustrate, from a YCWWC point of view, how these same generalized mechanics of the arm are present, not in the manner of how you in WSLVT use them. And for the record, at :15 in the PB video I still believe it to be a straight punch. Now you can argue about elbow position as giving insight into it being a Faak Sau, but the same action would apply to Sat Sau, Biu Sau or even a Pin Jeung. The elbow position and in out action would still be the same, without a hand present to definitively make that decision is conjecture in my opinion. If you say it is a Faak Sau then OK, but I fail how you can prove it without a shadow of a doubt based on an elbow position that is present in other technuques, the hand shape would be absolute confirmation. Snce it isn't there I'm left to form my own opinion based on what I observe & understand.


----------



## Marnetmar

LFJ said:


> Jeezlouise! Juany just cannot stand to be wrong, can he?! What an ego. Just drop it already.



You and I both know this is blatant projection.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> The idea that full extension of WC punches was commonplace in YCWWC, was superimposed by you & LFJ as a point of contention to normal WC punching.



Aligning your shoulder, elbow, and fist was part of your basic description of gate punching way back on page 2, at the very start of this thread.



> It was used to illustrate the mechanics of the arm in reference to striking at different levels of height with full extension. Specifically, it was about a high level inner gate strike, that without full extension of the arm, wouldn't work.



If your high level inner gate strike won't work without full extension, you are changing the way you perform the punch in response to the opponent's arm level, extending further to pop the elbow up and wedge their arm out.

It's reactive arm-chasing.

The fact that you explained pivoting to this side or that depending on which arm is incoming further illustrates your action as a deliberate response to a specific punch.

I understand you are trying to deflect and punch with the same action, but you are chasing to do it with large deliberate actions. These are workarounds for missing SNT elbow.



> The elbow position and in out action would still be the same, without a hand present to definitively make that decision is conjecture in my opinion.



His elbow doesn't go in and out like a straight punch. It is entirely different. That you can't recognize it without a hand shows you don't understand the elbow.



> If you say it is a Faak Sau then OK, but I fail how you can prove it without a shadow of a doubt based on an elbow position that is present in other technuques, the hand shape would be absolute confirmation. Snce it isn't there I'm left to form my own opinion based on what I observe & understand.



Elbow position not the same as in punching. Go learn VT.


----------



## LFJ

Juany118 said:


> The video I linked shows how to do a "standard" WC straight punch.  As far as I can recall the action of the punch (in terms of arm movement) is consistent across all the YM lineages.  There are differences in terms of preferred stance, but the "punch" itself is the same.



The Lui Ming Fai video?

Then that is case-closed on the original issue.

SNT elbow _not_ universal in YM lineages.


----------



## LFJ

Marnetmar said:


> You and I both know this is blatant projection.



He's hanging onto the last thread so that he can walk away from this being right about something.

He wants to find the most extreme of cases to prove his point. But he's still wrong. 

I will go him one up and say that even if I were doing a freaking _Shoryuken!_, SNT elbow would still apply.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Did I ever argue otherwise? No.
> 
> 
> 
> The elbow never rises above shoulder level, nor does it rise to close the triangle between the shoulder, fist, and elbow (full extension, popping elbow up).
> 
> This is what I have been comparing the entire thread long. Doing this, versus raising the elbow above shoulder level, or allowing it to rise to close the triangle, as NI described for his basic punch.
> 
> It doesn't matter to what level we punch, the elbow stays down. Not just oriented downward, down in relation to the shoulder and fist. It does not rise from the low position of the triangle.
> 
> What you guys are arguing against is a very stupid strawman about the elbow not ascending with the triangle.
> 
> Some of you have argued that the elbow cannot remain on the same horizontal plane while the arm is extended in a punch. That is demonstrably false and proven by the experiment I presented.
> 
> Does that mean the elbow will never ascend? No! But even as it ascends, the triangle is maintained. The elbow does not rise (in relation to the triangle or above shoulder level).
> 
> Please tell me you all can put your braincells together and understand this time.


Here is where a large part of the miscommunication started. I was attempting to explain Inside/Outside Gate punching, not in any specific context, out side of the concept itself. At no point was I directly referencing the VT punch or even the YCWWC punch, but the action of punching itself. Elbow ideas, angles, how the arm extends were all brought into the conversation of "Cutting Punches" as vague side points surrounding the concept of Gate/Inclusion/Exclusion/Cutting. From there it turned into a convoluted argument surrounding everything except the actual topic of the thread. All of this could have been avoided if you would have simply explained your "elbow ideas" when asked, instead of being obtuse. You have to take into consideration that I do not do WSLVT and am not familiar with your terminology, concepts etc. You claim they are not universal amongst Wing Chun lines, so what makes you think I would know what you are alluding to with vague tag lines like "elbow ideas". If explained, and it was understood that everything was to be discussed surrounding the parameters of the straight punch as determined by your VT there would have been no contention to the plausibility of the Inside Gate Punch. I clearly stated several times that the only way it will work is at full extension of the arm, type of strike irrelevant. Since this violates VT punching rules, why would you even continue to argue when we were obviously talking about two very different things? You could have simply came out and stated the parameters by explaining your elbow ideas from the beginning. Instead you chose to guard the idea for fear I would claim it, which is weird since I had already mentioned the triangle of shoulder, elbow, wrist as the joints involved in the mechanics. Right there you could have clarified what you meant in regards to the elbow not rising, and I would have understood where you were coming from. Instead you chose to argue about nothing for purposes known only to you.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> Aligning your shoulder, elbow, and fist was part of your basic description of gate punching way back on page 2, at the very start of this thread.



From a top view perspective if your shoulder, elbow and wrist are all on the same line are they not in alignment?



LFJ said:


> If your high level inner gate strike won't work without full extension, you are changing the way you perform the punch in response to the opponent's arm level, extending further to pop the elbow up and wedge their arm out.
> 
> It's reactive arm-chasing.
> 
> The fact that you explained pivoting to this side or that depending on which arm is incoming further illustrates your action as a deliberate response to a specific punch.
> 
> I understand you are trying to deflect and punch with the same action, but you are chasing to do it with large deliberate actions. These are workarounds for missing SNT elbow.



And I clearly stated several times it wouldn't be something that you actively seek to do because it would be arm chasing, especially at the high level. But you kept fixating on high level when refuting my statement that in and out gate punching is performed in the same manner. I stated only if on the same level. An outer gate will be done differently on mid level than an inner gate on high level. The only time it can be done as a spontaneous action while punching is at the mid level, I explained that too. In the PB series of images you can see him doing an outside gate punch at mid level. That may not be what you refer to it as in WSLVT, but that is what it is in YCWWC. You kept ignoring this to fixate on arguments that compared elbow position of the mid gate as violating VT rules when applied to the high inside gate punch I described. I explicitly expressed over and over again that VT punching rules cannot apply to high inner gate, you will get hit, the arm has to be at full extension, hence being able to use something else like Faak Sau, Biu Sau, Sat Sau etc. in such a fashion.



LFJ said:


> His elbow doesn't go in and out like a straight punch. It is entirely different. That you can't recognize it without a hand shows you don't understand the elbow. Elbow position not the same as in punching. Go learn VT.



I don't know how you can definitively determine that it doesn't do so from that side view, but if you insist OK. I'm not going to argue a moot point. I guess we all see what we want to.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I was attempting to explain Inside/Outside Gate punching, not in any specific context, out side of the concept itself. At no point was I directly referencing the VT punch or even the YCWWC punch, but the action of punching itself.



How is that in any way meaningful if there is more than one way to punch?

I asked you about your gate punch and this was your basic description of it.

It's obvious, in the first few pages of this thread, and you are rewriting now.



> Elbow ideas, angles, how the arm extends were all brought into the conversation of "Cutting Punches" as vague side points surrounding the concept of Gate/Inclusion/Exclusion/Cutting.



Wrong. The discussion started on the other thread concerning the universalness of elbow focus in YM lineages. Cutting punches were presented as an example, and the debate went from there.



> I clearly stated several times that the only way it will work is at full extension of the arm, type of strike irrelevant. Since this violates VT punching rules, why would you even continue to argue when we were obviously talking about two very different things?



Again, because you injected yourself into a discussion you didn't bother reading first.



> Instead you chose to guard the idea for fear I would claim it,



Which you did by saying your punch is the same as PB's, when it's entirely different.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> From a top view perspective if your shoulder, elbow and wrist are all on the same line are they not in alignment?



You said shoulder lowest point on the attack line if high level. All three joints on the same plane if mid level.

What you are describing here is elbow following wrist on a line of attack. Wrist-led.



> And I clearly stated several times it wouldn't be something that you actively seek to do because it would be arm chasing, especially at the high level.



Pivoting one way or another and punching this way or that in response to a specific incoming arm, as you explained, is reactive to the opponent's punch.



> But you kept fixating on high level when refuting my statement that in and out gate punching is performed in the same manner. I stated only if on the same level. An outer gate will be done differently on mid level than an inner gate on high level.



You defined level as the opponent's incoming punch, and your required level in response. This is reactive arm-chasing.



> In the PB series of images you can see him doing an outside gate punch at mid level.



His punch is not wrist-led and the three joints are not on the same line. It is entirely different from the mid-level gate punch you described.


----------



## Nobody Important

LFJ said:


> How is that in any way meaningful if there is more than one way to punch? I asked you about your gate punch and this was your basic description of it. It's obvious, in the first few pages of this thread, and you are rewriting now.



I am rewriting nothing. I have been arguing the same points all along and have been consistent. YOU kept interjecting different elements into the concept.




LFJ said:


> Wrong. The discussion started on the other thread concerning the universalness of elbow focus in YM lineages. Cutting punches were presented as an example, and the debate went from there.



Correct, and you asked me to come over to the thread discussing cutting punch, because I said it was WC101. My error for not reading all the discussion, I owned up to that. When I saw you guys talking about the cutting punch I said that there is a similar concept in YCWWC called a gate punch. I made it as a passing comment, but you and Guy couldn't leave it at that, you two had to grill me on the topic of Gate Punching. I obliged but you had to turn the conversation back to "elbow ideas" which you never explained. I didn't realize you wanted to keep the CONCEPT of "Cutting" restrained to the limitation of VT elbow rules. You could have clarified that prior to asking me to discuss it on your thread. Or was this on purpose to bait me into an argument?




LFJ said:


> Again, because you injected yourself into a discussion you didn't bother reading first. Which you did by saying your punch is the same as PB's, when it's entirely different.



I made a passing comment about a concept, nothing more. You invited me into the conversation.

It isn't about the mechanics of the punch. Its about the concept. What part of that can't you understand? The concept is the same, not the manner it is done. It's a basic concept.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> I didn't realize you wanted to keep the CONCEPT of "Cutting" restrained to the limitation of VT elbow rules. You could have clarified that prior to asking me to discuss it on your thread. Or was this on purpose to bait me into an argument?



It was very clear from my first posts in this thread that I was talking about the elbow.



> The concept is the same, not the manner it is done. It's a basic concept.



It's not the same at all. This is what you explained earlier:



Nobody Important said:


> Imagine a right punch being thrown at your chest, using your left hand, while pivoting left, you punch over his arm, your forearm knocks it offline as you hit his head. Now if it is the same punch being thrown with his left hand, you pivot right while punching with your right hand under his arm, your forearm knocks it offline as you strike his head. This would all be in middle level. If it were at high level (like in your videos), your arm has to extend more, causing the wrist and elbow to be higher than shoulder, otherwise you'll get hit.



You have to pivot one way and use this arm if that arm comes, and pivot the other way and use the that arm if this arm comes.

You have to raise your elbow if at one level, and keep it low if at another.

These are all deliberate reactions to an opponent's punch thrown at a specific level from a specific arm so that you'll be able to knock their arm off line.

This is arm-chasing. Not true _lin-siu-daai-da_.

True LSDD is non-thinking and not dictated by the opponent's punch. It doesn't require pivoting to dodge and change angles, or reactively raising or sinking the elbow by extending more or less in order to intercept an arm.


----------



## Nobody Important

Quote option not working.

1. What I am describing is a fully extended arm, not the VT arm.

2. I've stated time and time again that the gate punch is not something that you actively pursue, you do not chase the arm. It is something that can occur naturally when punching. I have attempted to describe it for you by explaining it in a drill scenario. You would have to rotate or get hit. Again the gate punch can occur as a result of simply punching, if it happens over their arm it is outer, under it is inner. You keep imagining this as if it is purposefully done by chasing the arm, it is not.

3. How else was I to describe how the arm would be via the level you are reacting to in an imaginary situation. Again the scenario was to explain the position to illustrate the point.

4. The concept of gate/exclusion/inclusion/cutting punch is present, therefore the same. I am not interested in the mechanics.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> 1. What I am describing is a fully extended arm, not the VT arm.



You described your fully extended inside gate punch at high level.



> 2. I've stated time and time again that the gate punch is not something that you actively pursue, you do not chase the arm. It is something that can occur naturally when punching. I have attempted to describe it for you by explaining it in a drill scenario. You would have to rotate or get hit. Again the gate punch can occur as a result of simply punching, if it happens over their arm it is outer, under it is inner. You keep imagining this as if it is purposefully done by chasing the arm, it is not.



You have to rotate or get hit, because you're not using non-reactive LSDD.

You are rotating one way or another in response to a specific punch from a specific arm.

I understand your punch "automatically" intercepts, but it is made possible by deliberate reactive measures.



> 3. How else was I to describe how the arm would be via *the level you are reacting to* in an imaginary situation. Again the scenario was to explain the position to illustrate the point.



Right. I understand this is an imaginary situation, but it's describing reactive arm-chasing principles.



> 4. The concept of gate/exclusion/inclusion/cutting punch is present, therefore the same. I am not interested in the mechanics.



The concept you describe is entirely different than VT concepts of LSDD.


----------



## Nobody Important

@LFJ post#386

I've explained myself, time and again only to have you approach the same arguments in a different way and with varying levels of minutia. To what purpose I am unclear. You are imagining things in a manner in which they were never intended, whether this is intentional or by misunderstanding is unclear. I concede as I have no interest in continuing this discussion. Take from it what you will. Your divisiveness, vitriol, disdain and arrogance towards me is unwarranted. Your and Guy B's opinions of me do not matter. At the end of the day I'm going to keep doing what I do regardless of what someone else, half a world away thinks is right or wrong. Have a good evening and thank you for your time.


----------



## LFJ

Nobody Important said:


> Your divisiveness, vitriol, disdain and arrogance towards me is unwarranted. Your and Guy B's opinions of me do not matter.



Why are you taking personal offense? I have said nothing about you as a person.

I'm just addressing the ideas you share. The discussion is purely technical, and I have been non-hateful about it. 

Try to remove ego from the discussion and honestly take on the points as they come. This is what I have been doing.


----------



## guy b.

LFJ said:


> Why are you taking personal offense? I have said nothing about you as a person.
> 
> I'm just addressing the ideas you share. The discussion is purely technical, and I have been non-hateful about it.
> 
> Try to remove ego from the discussion and honestly take on the points as they come. This is what I have been doing.



SOP for Nobody Important


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Hey guys.  Seriously.  Not all great training is on YouTube.  didn't you say this just a bit ago?  What's this weird obsession with video?


It seems this punch that is ubiquitous in their style would be in a video somewhere. It would make the discussion much easier.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b. said:


> Elbow rising is elbow popping up. Standard VT terminology


And yet, when I referred to the elbow changing horizontal planes, you said that didn't happen in VT. That's not nearly the same as "popping".


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b. said:


> Nope, he is specifically talking about popping up the elbow and flattening the triangle in wing chun in answer to you talking about wing chun, i.e. complete nonsense.


I never saw him say that the triangle gets flattened to a line. He refers to the elbow being above the shoulder in a high strike, which I read as a strike to a target well above your own shoulder. That's a reasonable statement, assuming that target isn't very close, since an extended arm (for a punch a few inches short of full-extension) leaves a shallow bend in the elbow. If the target is far enough above the shoulder, then that shallow angle means the elbow is above the shoulder. It's a matter of geometry, though choices can be made to avoid this (not punching that high, keeping high targets closer, etc.).


----------



## lansao

guy b said:


> The reason would be so that you aren't able to just claim them as your own, as you have done many times before. This is why it is useful to talk things through to get a clear idea of where others stand before revealing details.
> 
> Being evasive and dishonest doesn't help speed this process.


That's not the reason.


----------



## lansao

LFJ said:


> What exactly are you calling a strike in the form?
> 
> And why are you afraid of having your gate punch pinned down? Are you not confident about it?


The strikes. Capping/gate/excluding punch used by real fighters, not unique to Wing Chun. Check out Mohammed Ali.


----------



## lansao

LFJ said:


> Outer gate & inner gate punches.
> 
> Also wrist/hand-led, no awareness of elbow.


You don't know that.


----------



## lansao

LFJ said:


> So, the elbow is the same for inside or outside gate? How does it deal with the incoming punch obstructing the line? You just try to punch straight through it?


You're missing footwork. Take your time, think about it, ask your Sifu.


----------



## lansao

guy b said:


> Elbow stays on the line of attack, but YKS and YC forms show elbow rising and lack of any sophisticated elbow idea.


Forward central body movement with hip rotation through full extension a foot past target or you're slap fighting.


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> And yet, when I referred to the elbow changing horizontal planes, you said that didn't happen in VT. That's not nearly the same as "popping".



Quote me please


----------



## guy b.

lansao said:


> You don't know that.



Can be seen from those pics


----------



## guy b.

lansao said:


> That's not the reason.



Not sure why you are responding to a post for Nobody Important?


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> I never saw him say that the triangle gets flattened to a line



Here:



			
				Nobody Important said:
			
		

> To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm.
> 
> At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height and at low level shoulder will be highest and wrist at lowest.



"the wagina of the elbow will always come up" = flattening the triangle

"to align the bones of the arm" and "at mid let all three will be same height" = flattened to a line



> He refers to the elbow being above the shoulder in a high strike, which I read as a strike to a target well above your own shoulder. That's a reasonable statement, assuming that target isn't very close



See that's the thing about discssing a system you don't understand; your assumptions are stupid.

So basically your and Juany's argument boils down to assuming we are fighting the tallest man in the world so that (you hope) elbow goes above shoulder (it doesn't).

Only NI messed that little bit of wriggle room up for you by also saying this about his "wing chun":



			
				Nobody Important said:
			
		

> At mid let all three will be same height



i.e. he's punching with a straight arm. He's a pretend wing chun practitioner, just an internet troll. Why you spend time and effort trying to defend an obvious troll writing about a system he doesn't understand and that you don't either is beyond me.


----------



## lansao

guy b. said:


> Can be seen from those pics



Obviously not. Think feet.


----------



## lansao

guy b. said:


> Not sure why you are responding to a post for Nobody Important?


Let its contents guide you. An answer, by any other name, is just as sweet.


----------



## guy b.

No thanks


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b. said:


> Quote me please


Not worth the effort to find it again. It's somewhere around page 8, I think.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b. said:


> Here:
> 
> "the wagina of the elbow will always come up" = flattening the triangle
> 
> "to align the bones of the arm" and "at mid let all three will be same height" = flattened to a line


Aligning those bones means they align on the vertical plane. The statement about them being at the same height, as I read it, referred to a fully extended arm as the fullest example, rather than how they actually punch. I can see how that could be read the other way, as well.

[quoteSee that's the thing about discssing a system you don't understand; your assumptions are stupid.[/quote]
Or, you just don't understand the comments being made. Maybe "stupid" is an awfully strong word, so I'll just stop there.



> So basically your and Juany's argument boils down to assuming we are fighting the tallest man in the world so that (you hope) elbow goes above shoulder (it doesn't).


Nope. I used a taller person as an example. I had a training partner who was 6' 8" (not even close to the tallest person I've ever trained with, much less the tallest person in the world). Punching to his chin, even from relatively close (which is well within common WC range), my elbow would reach my shoulder at the end of a punch. No hyperbole necessary to make that happen.

If you're going to call someone stupid, maybe don't follow that up by overstating an example (a strawman argument, by definition).


----------



## Juany118

gpseymour said:


> Aligning those bones means they align on the vertical plane. The statement about them being at the same height, as I read it, referred to a fully extended arm as the fullest example, rather than how they actually punch. I can see how that could be read the other way, as well.
> 
> [quoteSee that's the thing about discssing a system you don't understand; your assumptions are stupid.


Or, you just don't understand the comments being made. Maybe "stupid" is an awfully strong word, so I'll just stop there.


Nope. I used a taller person as an example. I had a training partner who was 6' 8" (not even close to the tallest person I've ever trained with, much less the tallest person in the world). Punching to his chin, even from relatively close (which is well within common WC range), my elbow would reach my shoulder at the end of a punch. No hyperbole necessary to make that happen.

If you're going to call someone stupid, maybe don't follow that up by overstating an example (a strawman argument, by definition).[/QUOTE]
Exactly, again no one said "when we punch every joint ends perfectly aligned." The alignment comment was made, and clarified, to be simply a description of the biomechanics of the arm.

As for height, it's simply to address the "never happens" comment.  You also don't need the person to be 6'8".  The photo I uploaded shows a person below average height and a person only a couple inches above average height.  I picked that photo because the two subjects on the side illustrate people of average height.  I also said punching with that kind of alignment is not ideal but it can be necessary and as such saying "never ever" is simply wrong.  

When you study a Martial Art you are supposed to be developing skills vs a technique or rote dance steps.  Skills can adapt to changing or unusual circumstances (within limits of course) techniques or rote dance steps can't.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> Aligning those bones means they align on the vertical plane. The statement about them being at the same height, as I read it, referred to a fully extended arm as the fullest example, rather than how they actually punch. I can see how that could be read the other way, as well.



Can't see how you would read it the way that you do:

"at mid level all three will be same height" means that NI is talking about punching with a fully straightened arm



gpseymour said:


> Or, you just don't understand the comments being made. Maybe "stupid" is an awfully strong word, so I'll just stop there.



If you don't understand the range that VT punches operate at, you might think it is reasonable to accept that elbow will be above shoulder. This is the problem; you don't understand the system.



gpseymour said:


> Punching to his chin, even from relatively close (which is well within common WC range), my elbow would reach my shoulder at the end of a punch. No hyperbole necessary to make that happen



If your elbow is higher than your shoulder, you are no longer bypassing the shoulder, and so not a VT punch. I am not the tallest person in the world and punching a 6' 8 person in the chin would not cause my elbow to be above shoulder. Maybe you have extremely short forearms or are below average height? Oh well


----------



## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> Aligning those bones means they align on the vertical plane. The statement about them being at the same height, as I read it, referred to a fully extended arm as the fullest example, rather than how they actually punch. I can see how that could be read the other way, as well.
> 
> [quoteSee that's the thing about discssing a system you don't understand; your assumptions are stupid.
> *Or, you just don't understand the comments being made. Maybe "stupid" is an awfully strong word, so I'll just stop there.*
> 
> 
> Nope. I used a taller person as an example. I had a training partner who was 6' 8" (not even close to the tallest person I've ever trained with, much less the tallest person in the world). Punching to his chin, even from relatively close (which is well within common WC range), my elbow would reach my shoulder at the end of a punch. No hyperbole necessary to make that happen.
> 
> If you're going to call someone stupid, maybe don't follow that up by overstating an example (a strawman argument, by definition).






Juany118 said:


> *Or, you just don't understand the comments being made. Maybe "stupid" is an awfully strong word, so I'll just stop there.*
> 
> 
> Nope. I used a taller person as an example. I had a training partner who was 6' 8" (not even close to the tallest person I've ever trained with, much less the tallest person in the world). Punching to his chin, even from relatively close (which is well within common WC range), my elbow would reach my shoulder at the end of a punch. No hyperbole necessary to make that happen.
> 
> Exactly, again no one said "when we punch every joint ends perfectly aligned." The alignment comment was made, and clarified, to be simply a description of the biomechanics of the arm.
> 
> As for height, it's simply to address the "never happens" comment.  You also don't need the person to be 6'8".  The photo I uploaded shows a person below average height and a person only a couple inches above average height.  I picked that photo because the two subjects on the side illustrate people of average height.  I also said punching with that kind of alignment is not ideal but it can be necessary and as such saying "never ever" is simply wrong.
> 
> When you study a Martial Art you are supposed to be developing skills vs a technique or rote dance steps.  Skills can adapt to changing or unusual circumstances (within limits of course) techniques or rote dance steps can't.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk




Why is a reply from Juany's post in GP Seymours (earlier) post?

Looks a bit odd to me..


----------



## guy b.

Juany118 said:


> no one said "when we punch every joint ends perfectly aligned."



Yes they did, here:



			
				Nobody Important said:
			
		

> At mid level all three will be same height



If wrist, elbow and shoulder are all at the same height then the arm is straight and the triangle is flattened. It bears no resemblance to punching in wing chun. This is because NI doesn't do wing chun and is trolling the forum.


----------



## lansao

guy b. said:


> Yes they did, here:
> 
> 
> 
> If wrist, elbow and shoulder are all at the same height then the arm is straight and the triangle is flattened. It bears no resemblance to punching in wing chun. This is because NI doesn't do wing chun and is trolling the forum.



This need to maintain a triangle through extension of a punch does not define a Wing Chun punch, only a weak one. You misrepresent an art you don't understand. Go back to the drawing board with humility.


----------



## Transk53

guy b. said:


> Yes they did, here:
> 
> 
> 
> If wrist, elbow and shoulder are all at the same height then the arm is straight and the triangle is flattened. It bears no resemblance to punching in wing chun. This is because NI doesn't do wing chun and is trolling the forum.



I can tell from experience, Nodody Important has more substance than you. That is one big assertion to be polite. Of course I will have to be polite. Hope you can back that up. A deliberate slight like that should be evidence based!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b. said:


> If your elbow is higher than your shoulder, you are no longer bypassing the shoulder, and so not a VT punch. I am not the tallest person in the world and punching a 6' 8 person in the chin would not cause my elbow to be above shoulder. Maybe you have extremely short forearms or are below average height? Oh well


Ah, so now you don't actually understand human mechanics? Interesting.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

guy b. said:


> Why is a reply from Juany's post in GP Seymours (earlier) post?
> 
> Looks a bit odd to me..


Nothing odd.  A double-quote, missing a quote tag. 

A bit odd that you didn't catch that.


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## Transk53

Interesting.


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## Juany118

gpseymour said:


> Nothing odd.  A double-quote, missing a quote tag.
> 
> A bit odd that you didn't catch that.


Yeah, by the time I realized what happened I couldn't edit as the timer had run out.


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## guy b.

gpseymour said:


> Ah, so now you don't actually understand human mechanics? Interesting.



I think much more likely that you don't understand VT and don't know what you are talking about


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## guy b.

lansao said:


> This need to maintain a triangle through extension of a punch does not define a Wing Chun punch, only a weak one.





This may be the most back to front understanding of the VT punch i have had the pleasure to read. Quted for reference


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## lansao

guy b. said:


> This may be the most back to front understanding of the VT punch i have had the pleasure to read. Quted for reference



Lol, at least you're referencing it.


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## guy b.

lansao said:


> at least you're referencing it.



If I pulled one of these out of the river I would also take a picture. Nobody would believe me otherwise


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## lansao

guy b. said:


> If I pulled one of these out of the river I would also take a picture. Nobody would believe me otherwise



Stick to fishing.


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## Nobody Important

Cherry picking, convolution, name calling & referencing out of context to support a strawman argument. All in an attempt to support a false narrative, but I guess that's the SOP of these two.


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## guy b.

Do you find it difficult to phrase your own points? You generally seem to copy exactly the criticisms that have been made against you.


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## Nobody Important

Spin much


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## Steve

This thread has more passive aggressiveness than a Mother in Law convention.   "Don't mind me.  I'll be over here, sitting at home, minding my own business and trying not to worry about you.  I guess leaving me here is just your SOP."


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## guy b.

Steve said:


> This thread has more passive aggressiveness than a Mother in Law convention.   "Don't mind me.  I'll be over here, sitting at home, minding my own business and trying not to worry about you.  I guess leaving me here is just your SOP."



Lol, NI's name is even passive aggressive.

He's just sore that his aura as a wise and mysterious authority figure is in tatters after he recommended straight arm punching from the shoulder in wing chun

I am sure he will soon get over it and get back into character. Needs to remember to keep it vague in future though


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## lansao

For practitioners who have read through to this point of the thread and are looking for a dispassionate analysis on punching and the capping punch, here is some perspective. This bulleted format is fairly transparent and allows for particular aspects to be challenged and defended:

Punches follow the central line (line of taught string connecting your heart to your opponents). When the central line is the center line, the wrist is in the center and the elbow strives for the center.
The punch does not start from the chest, it starts from an angle of deflection, typically 45º in relation to the ground when balancing filling space and deflecting.
The wrist does not move during the extension of the punch although it maintains a slight J-like shape where the thumb connects back to it. This is to create just enough tensile support to avoid hyper extending the elbow on rapid extension.
We make contact with the bottom three knuckles (a tip from another forum member to aim with the ring knuckle is helpful). This is a point of preference between arts but the logic is that the bottom three align with the column of the forearm and protect
When we extend the punch, we extend all the way through and retract back to our angle of deflection.
We aim to punch through our target. The punch should be able to extend roughly 6-12" behind the target. It will stop short but the intention needs to be there.
Our arms are relaxed and biceps in particular are not flexed.
The first waits until surface contact to tighten in support of structure.
The capping punch incorporates a side step off a parallel side jab and leverages the initial angle of deflection through extension to deflect it. Assuming the opponent is in punching range and looking to punch through your head (not training range), the punch will intersect the opponent's head's incoming momentum at roughly a 135º angle.
~ Alan


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## wtxs

Transk53 said:


> Maybe you could vid the VT punch, rather than hide behind a collection. Actually genuinely curious here.



We will have to wait for hell to freeze over, and then we would not be there to witness the VT punch demo any way.


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## lansao

lansao said:


> For practitioners who have read through to this point of the thread and are looking for a dispassionate analysis on punching and the capping punch, here is some perspective. This bulleted format is fairly transparent and allows for particular aspects to be challenged and defended:
> 
> Punches follow the central line (line of taught string connecting your heart to your opponents). When the central line is the center line, the wrist is in the center and the elbow strives for the center.
> The punch does not start from the chest, it starts from an angle of deflection, typically 45º in relation to the ground when balancing filling space and deflecting.
> The wrist does not move during the extension of the punch although it maintains a slight J-like shape where the thumb connects back to it. This is to create just enough tensile support to avoid hyper extending the elbow on rapid extension.
> We make contact with the bottom three knuckles (a tip from another forum member to aim with the ring knuckle is helpful). This is a point of preference between arts but the logic is that the bottom three align with the column of the forearm and protect
> When we extend the punch, we extend all the way through and retract back to our angle of deflection.
> We aim to punch through our target. The punch should be able to extend roughly 6-12" behind the target. It will stop short but the intention needs to be there.
> Our arms are relaxed and biceps in particular are not flexed.
> The first waits until surface contact to tighten in support of structure.
> The capping punch incorporates a side step off a parallel side jab and leverages the initial angle of deflection through extension to deflect it. Assuming the opponent is in punching range and looking to punch through your head (not training range), the punch will intersect the opponent's head's incoming momentum at roughly a 135º angle.
> ~ Alan



Note, this does not cover footwork, hip rotation, or ball/heal distribution.


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## wtxs

guy b. said:


> Nope, _*he is specifically talking about popping up the elbow and flattening the triangle*_ in wing chun in answer to you talking about wing chun, i.e. complete nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> _*Elbow popped*_ up to align arm bones in wing chun punch? No



Please revisit your quote of NI .. he said ...

"Doesn't matter if you punch up or down.To use urban slang, the wagina of _*the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm*_. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain."

Don't know where you guys get the idea that elbow rise/come up same as popped up.  And you are the one that comes up with the triangle thing.

LFJ's experiment on elbow stays down while sliding/pushing forward with a punch with the arm laying on the table is just that, granted the punch can be fired from the vertical all the way down to the horizontal angle and the elbow stay put.  The experiment is flawed, it only addressed an isolate and controlled movement/action with just the arm,  I failed to see what point is to be made in relation to elbow rise in actual punching in a dynamic environment .

Do you guys really fight this way?  With your arm positioned as in the experiment?


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## wtxs

guy b. said:


> It is also frustrating to be trolled on a VT forum by people who don't do VT



The correct sub forum category under Chinese martial arts talk is "Wing Chun", there is no specific VT forum ... sorry ... however I do feel you pain. Hope you do find what you're looking for.


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## Nobody Important

You're weak attempt to bait me into saying something so you can turn me in again isn't going to work. I have been consistent throughout my statements, it unfortunately, has been others, such as yourself,with ulterior motives. The constant script flipping, cherry picking, convolution, spinning etc. has been ridiculous. All to support a false narrative that attempts to make others look ignorant. More than enough information has been given to fill your notebook. If you want more, I suggest instead of taunting others to get it, you find a sifu.


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## wtxs

LFJ said:


> Jeezlouise! Juany just cannot stand to be wrong, can he?! What an ego. Just drop it already.



Should we not all look in the mirror?


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## wtxs

guy b. said:


> Not sure why you are responding to a post for Nobody Important?



Me think he is one of them VT trolls.


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## Transk53

wtxs said:


> We will have to wait for hell to freeze over, and then we would not be there to witness the VT punch demo any way.



Yeah. I tend to get lost with terminology, so vids add a little more to look at in many ways for me.


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## lansao

wtxs said:


> Me think he is one of them VT trolls.


Really just want to share and absorb.

The offensive/defensive banter is just obscuring valuable exchange between methodologies.


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## anerlich

lansao said:


> The offensive/defensive banter is just obscuring valuable exchange between methodologies.



MartialTalk is not about sharing or exchange. It is all about domination, hegemony, winner take all, and proving your lineage is the only one of relevance while all others are the work of charlatans or dupes.


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## guy b.

wtxs said:


> Please revisit your quote of NI .. he said ...
> 
> "Doesn't matter if you punch up or down.To use urban slang, the wagina of _*the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm*_. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain."
> 
> Don't know where you guys get the idea that elbow rise/come up same as popped up.  And you are the one that comes up with the triangle thing.



Here is where he advocates elbow popped up and punching with the arm straight from the shoulder (i.e. triangle flattened):



			
				Nobody Important said:
			
		

> To use urban slang,* the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm*.
> 
> At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. * At mid let all three will be same height* and at low level shoulder will be highest and wrist at lowest.



Not sure why you are getting grumpy with me, speak to NI if you don't like it. All I can say is that he isn't describing aything to do with wing chun. Coupled with his complete lack of awareness of what is faak and what is punch, I would say be careful what you believe


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## Dirty Dog

Thread locked pending staff review.


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