# It doesn't matter. (???)



## Hand Sword (Nov 16, 2010)

Hello all!
Curious about something and just thought I'd throw it out there for some thoughts and opinions. Though it is in this section, any and all are welcome to contribute.

     Recently, I've been around the MA scene a bit more and have seen some things that stick me a bit. It concerns uniformity. I constantly see the same "Kempo" forms being done and hardly any of them are done the same way, even in the same school and under the same teacher. Being on old, good terms with them I get to have more personal conversations with them. When I ask about the constant differences, the answer is always "It doesn't matter."

     Now, I understand about personal differences, where tailoring happens due to size, height, abilities, etc.. and it's not that. I also understand about the changes due to lawsuits, copyrights, etc.. and it's not that either. What I'm going for is more of an ideal, maybe old school versus new school. Maybe, also a what rank or experience is one able to make their own changes. Should it be allowed? Never allowed?

     Basically, the scenarios are different hand placements, strikes, movements, etc.. and the question was asked why and it doesn't matter is the answer. This is also when the students are questioning the technicalities. Should everyone just go their own way, as they feel more comfortable? I know higher ranking BB's eventually come to that ability through many years of experience. They can and do tinker with things and it is "accepted" in the dojo by the teacher. Overall, does it matter how things go? Should tradition be adhered to or is evolution and change the right way to go? (also begs the question if it's really evolution or a laziness mindset or not qualified to teach knowledge)

Thoughts appreciated. :asian:


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## seasoned (Nov 16, 2010)

I am a huge believer that kata bunkai means something. Doing a kata in it's original form, in time, will produce the original intent. In the case of very old and traditional forms, these forms were battle tested and deemed effective. Staying as close to the original source, and adhering to THAT teaching, will give continuity to the arts. If one wishes to experiment with different scenarios within a certain kata, this should be done by higher black belt rankings, and in a dojo setting.


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## Jdokan (Nov 16, 2010)

I think it only matters to the individual involved...By saying that I don't mean each student should be doing his own thing. I believe that there should be some conformity to a basic concept. As long as the form can be interpreted from form to combat situation and it works I think that is okay...BUT deviation should occur only after some mastery has occurred....If my form has a back hand block vs. a ridgehand, etc the movement itself should make sense and be functional. Currently my studies include Indonesian arts and there isn't the same need for exact copying of movement, certain movements of course do require an approach or they won't work: structural integrity, etc....
From a traditionalists viewpoint I can understand the need to maintain consistency or things may not develop properly....


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2010)

I agree that it doesn't matter. We all have to start somewhere, and after being in the martial arts for the last 30 years, I have come to realize that most points of view have merrit, and that it is healthy to learn a thing one way and then learn it in as completely different manner. You will be a richer martial artist for both experiences.
Sean


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## seasoned (Nov 16, 2010)

Side bar please.  I have spent a few years in the arts, and what I have relearned is what I knew all along, but time gives one a whole new outlook. Kind of like "can't see the forest through the tree's" or something like that.:asian:


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## Flying Crane (Nov 16, 2010)

My feeling is that it depends on a few things.

I don't know what kind of ken/mpo yo are referring to, is it Parker-derived, or Cerio-derived or Castro-derived or something else?

I think different kata are designed and constructed with different things in mind.  

If the bunkai or application of the movement is held as the most important aspect of the kata, then it matters a lot.  Getting the specific placement of a hand wrong could drastically change the effectiveness of the application.  Or it could simply turn it into a different application altogether.

However, if the kata is designed and built more as a tool for developing the student's ability to effectively utilize the foundation and base, and the bunkai is not the primary importance (tho still important), then I'd say it doesn't matter as much.  The movement becomes an expression of how the system is designed in terms of how power is generated and from where it comes.  When you understand that, then application starts to just fall into place.  The specifics of where you place your hand or where you strike with it is less important in the practice of the kata.  This "vagueness" leaves the interpretation more open to different possibilities, and suggests many ways to apply the movement.  If the movement is too precise, it becomes very specific in terms of application and tends to stifle creative and spontaneous use of the material.


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## MJS (Nov 16, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> Hello all!
> Curious about something and just thought I'd throw it out there for some thoughts and opinions. Though it is in this section, any and all are welcome to contribute.
> 
> Recently, I've been around the MA scene a bit more and have seen some things that stick me a bit. It concerns uniformity. I constantly see the same "Kempo" forms being done and hardly any of them are done the same way, even in the same school and under the same teacher. Being on old, good terms with them I get to have more personal conversations with them. When I ask about the constant differences, the answer is always "It doesn't matter."
> ...


 
I see this all the time at my school. Since I've been at my current school, I"ve learned all of the material from my teacher. Basically, I do the techniques and katas as he does them. Yet there've been many times, during a group class, that other BBs will comment on differences.  Why are they doing it differently?  No idea.  Perhaps they learned from someone else, perhaps over time, someone felt the need to change something, etc.  Who knows.

Now, as far as the changes go...are they changes for the better?  Do the changes make sense?  I mean really, if someone is going to change a tech, whats the reason behind the change?  I've made 'changes' due to differences in height, etc., but for the most part, I'm not rewriting the tech.  

You'd think that things would be uniform, but thats not always the case.


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## LawDog (Nov 16, 2010)

In my opinon all of the replys are, from their own point of view, valid. We all walk on the road in what we believe is to be true.


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## RevIV (Nov 17, 2010)

seasoned said:


> I am a huge believer that kata bunkai means something. Doing a kata in it's original form, in time, will produce the original intent. In the case of very old and traditional forms, these forms were battle tested and deemed effective. Staying as close to the original source, and adhering to THAT teaching, will give continuity to the arts. If one wishes to experiment with different scenarios within a certain kata, this should be done by higher black belt rankings, and in a dojo setting.


 
This is why i got rid of the Pinans in our school, they are so far removed from the original that the only battle testing that they got were those on paper.


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2010)

RevIV said:


> This is why i got rid of the Pinans in our school, they are so far removed from the original that the only battle testing that they got were those on paper.


 
Do you do anything in place of what you got rid of?


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## RevIV (Nov 17, 2010)

I use some of the line drills from the forms that relate back to the Heiens(sp) that they came from.  But not to much, I was in the process of cutting back on some of the material that came in after the system was started.  I am at a place in time that I do not want a million forms anymore especially ones that I know were created just to add something new for a current rank.


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2010)

Sounds good.   If I had my own place, I'd most likely be doing the same thing.


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## KempoShaun (Nov 30, 2010)

I have a few students who are handicapped or can't move in the same way everyone else does, or other students that the bunkai just won't work unless we move things around a bit. So, if you looked at all my students, about 90% do things the same, but about 10% of them have their kata modified for one reason or another *shrug*. Just my $.02


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## Hand Sword (Dec 8, 2010)

Thanks all for the replies! I was just irked at the constant response of it doesn't matter for every question asked about the material. I just felt of course it matters. There was a reason behind it all originally. I just feel like there is an abandonment for the way of "if it feels good do it!" or "Whatever!" and that bothers me. I understand things have to change due to time, experience, and situations (like physical issues). Those are legit reasons. However, i was going for the big picture where all ranks and ages just go along as they will with no intent to correct ("teach") and an overall casual attitude. It just irks me.


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## RevIV (Dec 8, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> Thanks all for the replies! I was just irked at the constant response of it doesn't matter for every question asked about the material. I just felt of course it matters. There was a reason behind it all originally. I just feel like there is an abandonment for the way of "if it feels good do it!" or "Whatever!" and that bothers me. I understand things have to change due to time, experience, and situations (like physical issues). Those are legit reasons. However, i was going for the big picture where all ranks and ages just go along as they will with no intent to correct ("teach") and an overall casual attitude. It just irks me.


 
what was their response back when you asked them "well if it doesnt matter, why do we do it?"


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## Hand Sword (Dec 8, 2010)

A long speech about evolution and a comparison about why not live in caves when they were functional enough for centuries etc.... Plus, we are so much more advanced now than they used to be etc....


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> I just felt of course it matters. There was a reason behind it all originally.


 
There is another question here, and that is, do you believe that the persons who developed them in the first place really understood what they were doing and designed them well?  Honestly, I'm not always convinced in every case that this is true.

Assuming it is true, was the information and understanding adequately and properly passed on to the students, before those same students got the endorsement to become a teacher?

Or, maybe those students assumed the role of teacher without their teacher's endorsement...


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## Hand Sword (Dec 9, 2010)

I agree with that. Many times I got that feel when doing the "stuff." It felt choppy and no flow or not in accordance with autonomic responses. As to the pass down issue, I feel the answer is no. Many have gone their own ways and a lot has been lost/ changed/ deleted, etc..... 
My issue was just an "irking" and a  venting on here. I mean, when one comes around and it's left hand here and right hand there, then in the same form another has the opposite positions, why is it always "it doesn't matter" when asked about proper placement. Just from the form's technique being done, it does matter, at least to functionality. If a hand is to be trapping, locking, etc.... How can it strike at the same time. Positioning of the opponent dictates certain measures too, especially when they've supposedly been set up a certain way by you. It all just clouds understanding of what one is doing imho. I dunno.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 10, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> I agree with that. Many times I got that feel when doing the "stuff." It felt choppy and no flow or not in accordance with autonomic responses. As to the pass down issue, I feel the answer is no. Many have gone their own ways and a lot has been lost/ changed/ deleted, etc.....
> My issue was just an "irking" and a venting on here. I mean, when one comes around and it's left hand here and right hand there, then in the same form another has the opposite positions, why is it always "it doesn't matter" when asked about proper placement. Just from the form's technique being done, it does matter, at least to functionality. If a hand is to be trapping, locking, etc.... How can it strike at the same time. Positioning of the opponent dictates certain measures too, especially when they've supposedly been set up a certain way by you. It all just clouds understanding of what one is doing imho. I dunno.


 
Yup, and sometimes the real answer, underneath it all, when all the dust is cleared away, is that some of the "teachers" themselves simply do not know, and perhaps should not be teaching.

how do ya sort them out and recognize who's who?  I dunno.  But I'll say that often discussions here in the forums have given me certain insights on what people may or may not know, and give me a sense of, maybe this or that guy really isn't very good and doesn't know as much as he believes he does, and maybe shouldn't be teaching.  It's just information that I file away for my own use.


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## bushidomartialarts (Jan 11, 2011)

One of the great weaknesses of kenpo is a reliance on memorization instead of understanding. In our school, students are expected to understand the "canonical version" but if anybody can explain why they do it differently, that's fine.

I rarely do a kata the same way twice anymore. It may be something subtle, like altering by breathing and visualization. It might be major, like doing it backwards.

Kata is a tool for practice, nothing more. It's not holy writ.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 11, 2011)

Hand Sword said:


> Hello all!
> Curious about something and just thought I'd throw it out there for some thoughts and opinions. Though it is in this section, any and all are welcome to contribute.
> 
> Recently, I've been around the MA scene a bit more and have seen some things that stick me a bit. It concerns uniformity. I constantly see the same "Kempo" forms being done and hardly any of them are done the same way, even in the same school and under the same teacher. Being on old, good terms with them I get to have more personal conversations with them. When I ask about the constant differences, the answer is always "It doesn't matter."
> ...


Look at the first move on short three. In tournament you want it to look big, but on the street it would be crap. Its just a quick double jab; however, doing it correctly won't win you any trophies.
Sean


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