# Case Scenario: Bad guy presses charges after the fight



## Hawke (Jul 21, 2008)

Greetings All,

Scenario:
Fight is over and you won.
Now the guy(s) is pressing charges for assault and battery.

How would you handle the situation?

Do you do anything to prepare witnesses?  (hands up, yell leave me alone, stay back, etc)

Do you wait for the other person to get physical first or do you throw the first attack.  If you threw first how would you defend your action for throwing the first hit?

How do you explain yourself when the police arrive on the scene?

If this goes to court what can you do to prepare yourself?

What are your thoughts?


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## jks9199 (Jul 21, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> Scenario:
> Fight is over and you won.
> ...


You need to lay out more of the scenario; you're asking things that would have happened before the cops got there (yelling get back, etc), as well being unclear about what you mean by "pressing charges."

Do you mean that he's telling the cop he wants you arrested -- or that he's gone before a magistrate and sworn out a warrant for simple assault -- or that the cops are ready to put the cuffs on you?  Each is a different situation...

The bottom line is simple:  If you're being criminally charged (or sued civilly) -- beg, borrow or steal the money for an attorney.  Don't settle for the best attorney you can afford; go into hock to get the best attorney you can.  Your freedom and your property are on the line...


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## DavidCC (Jul 21, 2008)

"I'm not really sure what happened.  he attacked me and I was afraid for my life, I just remember getting hit and hitting back it's all kindof a terrifying blur.  I just thank God I got to go home to my kids that night, Your Honor"


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 21, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> "I'm not really sure what happened.  he attacked me and I was afraid for my life, I just remember getting hit and hitting back it's all kindof a terrifying blur.  I just thank God I got to go home to my kids that night, Your Honor"


 "My entire life flashed before my eyes, your honor....I thought about my wife and my two young children, what would happen to them if I died right there.....I truly feared he was going to kill me!"


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## Hawke (Jul 21, 2008)

Thanks for the responses.

I kept this scenario particular vague to get a wider scope of replies.

Some of the things I have heard from Marc "Craftydog" Denny and Southnarc is to prepare your witness.  

Let the people around you know that you attempted to avoid the fight (sometimes this may not be possible).

- hands up in front (stay away motion)
- some phrases can be, "Back off, I don't want to fight, etc."

Reasons for hitting first 

- Grooming Cues
- Shifting weight

Any phrases you may use to the attacker to avoid the fight?

Any body language you see which may indicate that a fight is unavoidable to justify in a court of law the reason for the preemptive strike?


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 21, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> "My entire life flashed before my eyes, your honor....I thought about my wife and my two young children, what would happen to them if I died right there.....I truly feared he was going to kill me!"


 
Amen!

Here in Texas you can 'stand your ground'. That is if you were at the place legaly, you did NOT do anything to provoke the argument, and then you were attacked, you do not have to retreat. That is you can stand and fight.

BUT...

1. You have to prove it! Either but witnesses, security cameras, or something ovious (say there were three of them and just you, or the attacker was hugely bigger, or they had a weapon and you didn't.) That's disparancy of force. If no ovious proof, you might very well be arrested. 

The way to do this is, if you were in a fight you didn't start, call the cops first. Whom every calls first is the 'victim'. Who calls second is the 'suspect'.

2. The law also says civil remedies are 'unaffected'. That is the other guy can sue. Yes even if you can prove to the cops there is no criminal assault, the other guy can try to sue. May not succeed but if they have a lawyer who is willing to try,  well they can try.

And yes, there are innocent people in prision!

Deaf


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## MJS (Jul 21, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> Scenario:
> Fight is over and you won.
> ...


 
IMO, if there are witnesses, 'preparing' them is as simple as what you say and do during the confrontation.  "Hey man, I don't want any problems!" and having your hands up, open, in a defensive but ready posture, can, IMO, make or break how others view whats happening.

As for explaining things afterwards...I wouldn't say much if anything at all, until a lawyer is contacted.  However, the examples that have already been given sound like good things to say. 

As for court...I would say make sure you have all your facts lined up, make sure the I's are dotted and the T's crossed.   Keeping in mind that there is a very good chance that the people (jury) sitting on this will know little or nothing at all about the arts, and what they do know will be grossly distorted due to what they have seen in movies.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 22, 2008)

MJS said:


> IMO, if there are witnesses, 'preparing' them is as simple as what you say and do during the confrontation. "Hey man, I don't want any problems!" and having your hands up, open, in a defensive but ready posture, can, IMO, make or break how others view whats happening.
> 
> As for explaining things afterwards...I wouldn't say much if anything at all, until a lawyer is contacted.


 
agreed.  Verbalize before/during your use of force.  Then, call 911 and tell them you were attacked, ask for an ambulance if necessary and give them the location (don't say anything about the incident, calls are recorded).  When the police arrive *STFU* until you've talked to a lawyer.  DO NOT answer questions or make a statement until you've received legal advice.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 22, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Amen!
> 
> Here in Texas you can 'stand your ground'. That is if you were at the place legaly, you did NOT do anything to provoke the argument, and then you were attacked, you do not have to retreat. That is you can stand and fight.
> 
> ...


 That's interesting about Texas.....in Missouri we have civil immunity under certain conditions where no crime has been committed, meaning if it's considered lawful self-defense for the purposes of criminal prosecution, civil immunity exists......and anyone who attempts to sue is subsequently responsible for all legal expenses incurred on both sides.


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## Archangel M (Jul 22, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> When the police arrive *STFU* until you've talked to a lawyer. DO NOT answer questions or make a statement until you've received legal advice.


 
While sound advice, people who subscribe to it must be aware and mentally prepared to accept that they may be taken into custody. To the station for questioning at the best, in cuffs at the worst. Like I said.. Im not saying that the advice is wrong. I just think that some people think that if you say nothing when the police arrive that they are going to sit there and wait for your attorney to arrive or will let you go home and show up at the station later. Then they get confronatational when the police start putting the cuffs on. That could turn out bad for you. You must be prepared to accept getting arrested. Keeping quiet MAY result in being arrested but not getting convicted. Blabbing a lot of possibly incriminating statements COULD result in your arrest AND possible conviction.

Do the math.


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 22, 2008)

From what I've learned putting your hands up and clearly stating you dont want to fight are both very good things to do if you have witnesses there, and like everyone else is saying, get a good lawyer......and I agree with Archangel in that yes you have the right to remain silent, but doing so kind of makes you look like you have something to hide.


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## MJS (Jul 22, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> While sound advice, people who subscribe to it must be aware and mentally prepared to accept that they may be taken into custody. To the station for questioning at the best, in cuffs at the worst. Like I said.. Im not saying that the advice is wrong. I just think that some people think that if you say nothing when the police arrive that they are going to sit there and wait for your attorney to arrive or will let you go home and show up at the station later. Then they get confronatational when the police start putting the cuffs on. That could turn out bad for you. You must be prepared to accept getting arrested. Keeping quiet MAY result in being arrested but not getting convicted. Blabbing a lot of possibly incriminating statements COULD result in your arrest AND possible conviction.
> 
> Do the math.


 
I'll speak just for my post, but I made the comment not saying much, if anything.  Of course, perhaps, due to the traumatic nature of what just happened, you may, mentally and physically, not be in the proper mindset to give a 10 page report.  I don't think anyone could hold that against you.


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## Archangel M (Jul 22, 2008)

MJS said:


> I'll speak just for my post, but I made the comment not saying much, if anything. Of course, perhaps, due to the traumatic nature of what just happened, you may, mentally and physically, not be in the proper mindset to give a 10 page report. I don't think anyone could hold that against you.


 
And I think you are right.

My only point is that some people are going to subscribe to the "dont talk to the police" idea and then be freaked out when they get the cuffs put on them. There is a strong possibility that you may be taken into custody, and you need to be aware of that as part of this whole process.

Im just saying that you need to be prepared to go along with what the police do if you are going to leave it up to other people or the situation as it stands to make the decicion for them.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 22, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> While sound advice, people who subscribe to it must be aware and mentally prepared to accept that they may be taken into custody. To the station for questioning at the best, in cuffs at the worst. Like I said.. Im not saying that the advice is wrong. I just think that some people think that if you say nothing when the police arrive that they are going to sit there and wait for your attorney to arrive or will let you go home and show up at the station later. Then they get confronatational when the police start putting the cuffs on. That could turn out bad for you. You must be prepared to accept getting arrested. *Keeping quiet MAY result in being arrested but not getting convicted. Blabbing a lot of possibly incriminating statements COULD result in your arrest AND possible conviction.*
> 
> Do the math.


I think that's the main consideration.  I'd rather spend a few hours sitting in an interview room and let my lawer do the talking, than try to handle it myself and possibly make things worse by talking too much.

In the firearms section, I just posted a review from a Force-on-Force class I took last week.  One of the scenarios included the aftermath (being detained and questioned by the "police").  Even under the moderate stress of a "drill" there were a couple of people who made statements that would have caused them some _major_ problems when the time came for the prosecutor to decide whether to file charges, or when the case actually went to trial.  

You will be much better off letting a lawyer do the talking for you.


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 22, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> That's interesting about Texas.....in Missouri we have civil immunity under certain conditions where no crime has been committed, meaning if it's considered lawful self-defense for the purposes of criminal prosecution, civil immunity exists......and anyone who attempts to sue is subsequently responsible for all legal expenses incurred on both sides.


 
Well we have a 'castle doctrine' as for ones home. There you are immune to lawsuits. But outside the house, while you can 'stand your ground' as for criminal charges, you can still be sued.

Back when I was at the Champan Academy, Columba Missouri, in 92 there was no CCW and you had retreat laws. How times have changed!

Deaf


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 22, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> Scenario:
> Fight is over and you won.
> ...


 
First thing one should address is one's environment. One aspect to consider in reference to "environmental awareness" is where do you live and what are the laws concerning self-defense there? 

I live in the state of Georgia, USA. In my state, I can defend myself lawfully. Assault does not require physical contact. If a stranger says, "I'm gonna kick your a-double-s then I am within my rights to flatten his nose." He doesn't actually have to throw a punch, showing intent is enough to qualify as "assualt". 

When focusing on self-defense, I teach students to say things like, "Leave me alone", "Stop resisting", and things like that. Think about the last time you watched "Cops" and the police asked a witness, "What did you see?" The witness will say something like, "That guy kept telling the other guy to leave him alone, but he just kept on coming at him....." What a witness may "see" is influenced by what they "hear." LOL

It's important to remember that even though you could be cleared of criminal charges, that does not necessarily clear you of civil charges. You could still end up being sued for physical damages. I suggest getting a Personal Liability Policy if you have any assets at all. Simply owning a home means you probably need one if you're a martial artist. This will help protect you against civil lawsuites so you don't risk assets or future earnings. If you have serious questions, call your insurer and ask. 

Some feel that you must wait  for a physical attack to defend yourself. I say "no way!" Action is faster than reaction and I don't care how many years you have in the arts, or how many bars you have on your black belt... one well placed strike is all it takes to put you out. 

Not only that, but if you're facing down a stranger can you chance it that they are just talking smack when they say they're gonna put you in the hospital? Can your family take that chance? I say you must err on the side of caution if a stranger says they're gonna hurt you, then you must assume they mean what they say or suffer dire consequences.


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## chinto (Jul 23, 2008)

if you have time, saying things like " step back!! I dont want to fight with your hands up and open in front of you as if pushing him from a distance... that is good.. but if its an ambush.. do what you have to do.. then tell the cops " I was attacked! He is the man who attacked me! and I would like to consult an attorney before i say anything else, I am sorry its nothing personal but I have never had this happen to me before! I am kinda out of my depth.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 23, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Well we have a 'castle doctrine' as for ones home. There you are immune to lawsuits. But outside the house, while you can 'stand your ground' as for criminal charges, you can still be sued.
> 
> Back when I was at the Champan Academy, Columba Missouri, in 92 there was no CCW and you had retreat laws. How times have changed!
> 
> Deaf


 For the better, my friend.....for the better.  Though, it should be noted, that Missouri chickened out in going all the way with it's Castle Doctrine in still requiring retreat on the street if feasible.....right up to your vehicle, which you can then treat as your home.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 23, 2008)

I just yell 'THAT'S MY PURSE! I DON'T KNOW YOU!' and then kick them in the testicles!


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## DavidCC (Jul 23, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I just yell 'THAT'S MY PURSE! I DON'T KNOW YOU!' and then kick them in the testicles!


 
+1 for King of the Hill reference


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## MJS (Jul 23, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> And I think you are right.
> 
> My only point is that some people are going to subscribe to the "dont talk to the police" idea and then be freaked out when they get the cuffs put on them. There is a strong possibility that you may be taken into custody, and you need to be aware of that as part of this whole process.
> 
> Im just saying that you need to be prepared to go along with what the police do if you are going to leave it up to other people or the situation as it stands to make the decicion for them.


 
Good points!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 23, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> +1 for King of the Hill reference


 :ultracool


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## 7starmarc (Jul 23, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Well we have a 'castle doctrine' as for ones home. There you are immune to lawsuits. But outside the house, while you can 'stand your ground' as for criminal charges, you can still be sued.
> 
> Deaf


 
Maybe it's just much worst out here in California, but you are never immune to (civil) law suits. You may not find yourself with criminal charges, but anyone can drag you into court and make life a nightmare for a while, even if you do end up with the decision in your favor.


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## still learning (Jul 27, 2008)

Hello,  America the greatest country to live in...especially if you are the bad guys....where more rights are given to criminals!

Man make the laws...man is not perfect...therefold...laws are not perfect...

Bad guy or good guy....only the lawyers can make the law work for you or against you....

We always hear about how the good guys go to jail or get sue because the bad guy/criminal wins with the LAWS ON THERE SIDE!

Common sense or fairness?  ...HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WRITTEN LAWS

Our government is govern by LAWS - Declaration of Indepence-   written by man!

LEARN THE RULES TO PROTECT YOURSELF- FROM THIS HAPPEN TO YOU...each state has their own rules or laws too!

LET THE BUYERS beware-  the good guys and your Sensi should learn about how to protect themselve- from learning from the Police and Lawyers in Seminers or as guest speakers on this topic...

NOT knowing the laws- is your fault...as they say

WHAT LAWS?   ......the ones' written by man...........Aloha

PS: only in America...the criminals are better off......than us!


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## Guardian (Jul 27, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> That's interesting about Texas.....in Missouri we have civil immunity under certain conditions where no crime has been committed, meaning if it's considered lawful self-defense for the purposes of criminal prosecution, civil immunity exists......and anyone who attempts to sue is subsequently responsible for all legal expenses incurred on both sides.


 

I'm not sure, but I think Texas changed to go in line with Missouri on this issue also as far as self-defense, it goes along with the Castle Doctrine, it's all wrapped up in one now.  It give civil immunity also, it's mostly wrapped about home, business and vehicle, but does also mention any place where you are not committing a crime so that leaves it wide open for anywhere that you are and not committing a crime.


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## wrc619 (Aug 6, 2008)

Being trained in physical security by Uncle Sugar's Canoe Club, I would probably default to the escalation of force ladder.  When the force got to soft or hard control, I would use my martial arts training.  For the curious, the ladder goes Presence, Voice, Soft Control, Hard Control, Intermediate Weapons, Deadly Force.  Hopefully, that would be taken into account.  Instead of profession presence I would opt for non threatening posture(with hands up, of course).


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