# Do all  roads lead to FMA?



## Dijos (Dec 15, 2003)

I have seen many people study a variety of arts for a long time, and then find FMA.  I have seen people study FMA, and stop there.  What is it that makes people end up with this art, especially after studying other arts for a long time?


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dijos _
> *I have seen many people study a variety of arts for a long time, and then find FMA.  I have seen people study FMA, and stop there.  What is it that makes people end up with this art, especially after studying other arts for a long time? *




I cannot answer your good question here.

I have only trained in FMA's. Modern Arnis and Balintawak.

I have enjoyed it from day one and did not find the need or desire to go eslewhere. So, I cannot answer why people end up at FMA's.

I have staid with it because it has always covered what I was looking for. Does it cover all ranges exceptional well? I am not sure of this. I would rate my ground fighting as low, yet I trained to limit my time on the ground, since I used to be up against multiple people on a daily basis. The basics of weapon handling and the mid set of the flow and cutting also make it easy for me to understand.

I know I did not answer your question, I hope someone can though.
:asian:


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## Cruentus (Dec 15, 2003)

I think that the Genre of FMA is very complete when it comes to combative application, first of all. So people who start with FMA can get just about all they need w/o having to go outside of the genre, although it still happends often.

Also, FMA has a niche when it comes to weapons training, so most people who study different arts that don't focus as much on weapons usually decide at some point in their training that they need more weapons work, which brings them to FMA. Also, FMA makes a good supplement art due to the Filipino culture, and the way the art is taught.

Also, in terms of practicality, I think FMA lies on the top of the chart. The reason is because most FMA haven't been that far removed from actual combat. The Philippines, as beautiful as the country is, is still 3rd world and war torn. They have been through constant military struggles, regime changes, dictatorships, and chaotic rule within the last 100 years. Most of the old masters and grandmasters either trained under people who had to use their skills in real combat, and often they had to use their skills in combat themselves. So many of the FMA techniques and skills have been "road tested" very recently. Since the FMA haven't been far removed from real combat, it just makes for a very practical genre of martial arts. Due to this reason, I often find many people who study a different art as their "life study," but they learn FMA to get a practical sense of "how to fight".

So, I think these may be a few reasons why people seem to "end up" at FMA.



PAUL


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## arnisandyz (Dec 15, 2003)

If I think back to my Statistics class...this statement would be a Fallacy because obviously SOME roads do not lead to FMA or else I'd have more students or we would have more FMA schools! But I get what your saying.

All of the guys in our group have black belt or equivielent in another art.  Thats 100%! I hear comments like "I wish I would have done this earlier" but  I've also heard I'm glad I have previous experience, it makes me appriciate the FMA more.  But why?

In addition to  what Rich and Paul said Alot of what FMA works on is attribute training rather then technique training.  When somebody increases there capacity to learn, they can take in more, and in some cases, start to develop themselves.  Its very rewarding and personal.  Rather than learn a technique, then learn another, and another the way someone did it centuries ago. FMA teaches how the techniques work together.  The mortar that holds the bricks together...or "the flow".  I always tell the guys not to 'throw away" what they've learned in the other arts, but to try and see where they might fit into the flow.

I heard Steve Grody mention a story about Guro Dan and one of his teachers - something like... when you understand it, your going to think your a genious, but its the training method that allows you to be free.


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## pesilat (Dec 15, 2003)

I've trained in other things since getting involved with FMA. But Sikal (a hybrid of elements from various Filipino and Indonesian systems) is and will always be my core. Prior to training in Sikal, I trained in Tae Kwon Do and Okinawan Goju-Ryu and was exposed to a whole slew of other things including Muy Thai, Kendo, Iaido, Aikido, Ninjutsu, Kenpo, and others.

As has been pointed out - I don't think _all_ roads lead there. But I think people looking for combative training tend to find it appealing because they realize that weapons are a fact of life and that learning to deal with weapons is useful and practical - and the FMA are world-renowned for their weapons.

I think that's what draws people (the ones it does draw) to the FMA originally - the weapons. And the fact that the weapons are taught first or early in the training. It seems novel (or it did to me when I first saw it - "Hey, toys!") and they become interested. Then they start training and start realizing the depth of the FMA and they decide to stick around.

Personally, I thought the FMA was cool when I first saw it, but it wasn't what attracted me to the Sikal blend. It was the Silat aspects that did that. Now I love FMA but my real passion is still the Silat.

Mike


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## Cthulhu (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm one of arnisandyz's students and have a black belt from previous training.  For me, one of the things that attracted me to the FMA, and in particular my current training, is that so many things that I struggled with from my previous training come SO much easier in my FMA training.  Techniques and concepts I couldn't work my body or mind around before now seem almost embarrassingly simple.  I don't know how many times I struggled with something, only to eventually end up getting it and exclaiming, "That's it?!?!"

Cthulhu


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I'm one of arnisandyz's students and have a black belt from previous training.  For me, one of the things that attracted me to the FMA, and in particular my current training, is that so many things that I struggled with from my previous training come SO much easier in my FMA training.  Techniques and concepts I couldn't work my body or mind around before now seem almost embarrassingly simple.  I don't know how many times I struggled with something, only to eventually end up getting it and exclaiming, "That's it?!?!"
> 
> Cthulhu *




Nice Input and story.
:asian:


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## arnisandyz (Dec 16, 2003)

Hey Cthulhu, long time no see!  When are you coming back to class?




> _Originally posted by Cthulhu [/I don't know how many times I struggled with something, only to eventually end up getting it and exclaiming, "That's it?!?!"
> 
> Cthulhu [/B]_


_ 

I love this part of the training, both for myself and to see when others get it.  Its like turning on the light for yourself rather than having someone lead you blindly with a torch._


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## OULobo (Dec 16, 2003)

My two cents: I think that there are still many people who don't find these "paths". How many people on MT.com alone have no FMA experience. There are many aspects of why people choose to stay in FMA: The heavy integration of a culture that isn't as popularized in the US as Chinese and Japanese cultures, the realistic mindset that many FMAs teach, the different flare of the techniques, the "toys", the ability to apply in many situations, ranges and body styles, the ability to age with the art (as opposed to Muay Thai or more physically demanding arts), the cadre of amazing people who promote and practice the FMAs. I think it can all be summed up with the words different, adaptable, effective. 

Personally, I was hooked, at first, by the flash and whirl of a speeding stick. Later, I was impressed by the effectiveness, in the end, it was the history and culture that kept me in the FMAs. FMAs are still my core. I train silat for enjoyment and interest, I train Muay Thai / Bando for conditioning and aggressiveness, but I still train FMAs for these reasons and efficient effective application also.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Hey Cthulhu, long time no see!  When are you coming back to class?
> *



Hopefully, this Friday.  Upper repiratory infection is not conducive to FMA training.  I was planning on coming this Monday, but my daughter is STILL sick.  She's on her third friggin' antibiotic, but at least this time it's one we know works.  She's had to go to the doctor three times since the day after Thanksgiving for the same damn thing.

Cthulhu


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## bloodwood (Dec 17, 2003)

I believe that the FMA give people a freedom that is not found in most other arts. There is not a lot of rigidity. You can adapt the techniques to your body type and particular needs and still remain within the system. You feel the need to explore a technique and understand it better rather than be locked into "my way or the highway." I also feel that many people get bored with all the traditional stuff and enjoy being able to Go With the Flow.

bloodwood


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## MJS (Dec 17, 2003)

The Filipino arts seem that they blend very easily into an existing art.  For example, my base art is Kenpo.  Upon finishing a Kenpo tech. there have been many times that I have seen a chance to "add on" to that tech. using something from Arnis!  

Its not too often that you can do this with just any art.  

Mike


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## pesilat (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> *I believe that the FMA give people a freedom that is not found in most other arts. There is not a lot of rigidity. You can adapt the techniques to your body type and particular needs and still remain within the system. You feel the need to explore a technique and understand it better rather than be locked into "my way or the highway." I also feel that many people get bored with all the traditional stuff and enjoy being able to Go With the Flow.
> 
> bloodwood *



LOL. Reminds of something Dan Inosanto said at a seminar once: "I loved the Filipino arts because I could do nothing wrong. I'd ask my instructor something and he'd say, 'You can do it that way.' Of course, what he meant was, 'I wouldn't do it that way, but you can.' But he never told me that I was wrong."

Mike


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *LOL. Reminds of something Dan Inosanto said at a seminar once: "I loved the Filipino arts because I could do nothing wrong. I'd ask my instructor something and he'd say, 'You can do it that way.' Of course, what he meant was, 'I wouldn't do it that way, but you can.' But he never told me that I was wrong."
> 
> Mike *




Mike,

Yes, many of the old GM's and Manong's will make comments like this. "You can do it that way." And you and Guro I are correct there is no wrong way. If you make it work no one was going to come over and tell you to do 100 push up for being a little out of traditional place when you accomplished you block.

Both you and Bloodwood make very good points.


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## pesilat (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Mike,
> 
> Yes, many of the old GM's and Manong's will make comments like this. "You can do it that way." And you and Guro I are correct there is no wrong way. If you make it work no one was going to come over and tell you to do 100 push up for being a little out of traditional place when you accomplished you block.
> ...



 Yup. And I'm always careful to not tell my students that they're doing something "wrong." It may not be what I'd do but if it seems valid - especially after a little pressure testing - then I can't say that it's "wrong." It may not be what I'd do and it may not be what I'm teaching at the time or what I just showed - but it's not "wrong." And if it does seem invalid (or highly risky) then I try to explain why it seems that way to me.

But if they use it in sparring or in a fight and it works - then it can't be "wrong." Even if there are hundred "better" ways to do it - it worked for them when they needed it and that's the final clincher on "right" IMO 

Mike


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## OULobo (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *But if they use it in sparring or in a fight and it works - then it can't be "wrong." Even if there are hundred "better" ways to do it - it worked for them when they needed it and that's the final clincher on "right" IMO  *



I once had an instructor that I respect tell me, "Poke'em in the eye, kick'em in the nuts, punch'em in the face. Now you know the secret of my system." Just like you said, if it works, then it can't be wrong.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I once had an instructor that I respect tell me, "Poke'em in the eye, kick'em in the nuts, punch'em in the face. Now you know the secret of my system." Just like you said, if it works, then it can't be wrong. *



Which reminds me of something one of my instructors often says: "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

Cthulhu


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## pesilat (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Which reminds me of something one of my instructors often says: "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."
> 
> Cthulhu *



LOL. The one I've always heard is, "If you're not cheating, you're not fighting." Or "If you're not fighting dirty, then it's not a fight."

Mike


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## bloodwood (Dec 17, 2003)

I always try and give my students the benefit of the doubt when they think they have come up with a new technique or a different slant on a proven one. Most of the time they see the error of their ways when we put it to the test, but I tell them if they still want to use it then it's OK. Usually they move on to their next, "How Bout This One"

Once in a while something works or can't be brushed aside. When that happens we add it into the mix. The hard part is telling them they can't name it after themselves. It's hard enough remembering the Filipino terms let alone peoples names.

bloodwood


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## loki09789 (Dec 18, 2003)

I think there are just as many people who study and leave FMA as other arts in reality.  The real difference is the experienced martial artists who have 'been there' in another system that like the individualization of technique and the interpretiveness of FMA and stay with it.  They may never leave their root system, and sometimes the benefit of the technical, form skill they bring helps them learn and understand faster that an untrained student.  But, for an FMA'er to go from that structureless structure to a more strictly run, strictly form driven class is harder IMO.  This doesn't mean that there is no standard on technical proficiency or artistic skill, just that it is usually layered in or under effectiveness.  The primary focus of most FMA I have seen is can you make it work, even if it doesn't look good now - because it will later as long as you keep working on it.

Early on, there are many beginners who just don't appreciate, or need tighter and more specific instruction that other trad arts will give them to get going.  The openess of FMA for a beginner can be very disconcerting.  They generally want to be told what to do and when and leave the strategy/tactical thinking for later.


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## arnisandyz (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *sometimes the benefit of the technical, form skill they bring helps them learn and understand faster that an untrained student. *



loki,

I agree with everthing you stated, except the above.  Some things yes...someone with previous knowledge of another system already knows how to strike and perform other techniques, but as far as understand and learn FMA faster, I question that.  Depending on the system, I'll use a TKD blackbelt student as an example, I usually have to go through at least 6 months to a year "deprogramming" to get the guy loosened up, to stop moving so rigid and to flow.  One guy gave up because he couldn't let go and loosen up. On the other hand, I've trained someone who had no previous Martial Arts experience (my niece) but had spent years in ballet and dance, after 2 months she flowed very gracefully with a knife.  I'm not saying you are wrong, it just depends.

Thanks

Andy


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## Black Grass (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *
> Early on, there are many beginners who just don't appreciate, or need tighter and more specific instruction that other trad arts will give them to get going.  The openess of FMA for a beginner can be very disconcerting.  They generally want to be told what to do and when and leave the strategy/tactical thinking for later. *



I believe we are talking teaching style as opposed to arts. Also were you learned the art. In terms of concept v. technique training.

From my experience in the Philippines it is much more regimented and more focus is given to the basics then in the west. I have had teachers in the FMA that were strict in terms of form correcting me as I repeat the same move over and over again.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## loki09789 (Dec 18, 2003)

To both comments on my reply:

I see your points.  With the Martial background, coming from a hard style could cause some problems adjusting.  I guess I assume that all Black Belts learn to be conceptual and strategic in thought... that is not the case.

Of course I was only talking about FMA from my own experience, and I have no PI training experience.  My stateside experience holds true to the concept focus (which could translate in some cases to sloppy technique) over technical focus.  My personal instruction was more practical/application oriented over form oriented.  If it worked, okay.  Over time, with dilligence the technical will improve - but only because the technique is to make the application easier/efficient.  At each rank progression, you had to be able to reasonably repel the attack.  At each promotion, you had to be able to reasonably defend yourself with more and more artistic and technical proficiency.  the technical focus is there, just as a component and not the end goal common to more traditional arts.

Paul Martin


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## Cruentus (Dec 18, 2003)

> Of course I was only talking about FMA from my own experience, and I have no PI training experience. My stateside experience holds true to the concept focus (which could translate in some cases to sloppy technique) over technical focus.



I think this had alot to do with Remy Presas, the way he taught, and the way that his methods were adopted by other instructors in america. As you remember I am sure, Remy didn't like to tell people they were wrong. He encouraged conceptual learning, and for people to make their own "innovation." This was good in a lot of ways, and not so good in others. One of the ways it was not so good is that anything anyone did was "very good," even if there was a much better way of doing the technique. People would then walk around saying, "This is the way Remy showed me" or "This is the way Remy told me to do it." when that way could of not been so good. I was lucky enough to have been told this by my seniors early on, so I knew to ask the right questions, and convey to him that my ego isn't so fragile that he can't tell me when I am doing something wrong. Once he understood that I WANTED criticism, he gave it to me much more frequently and harshly (unless, of course, he just wanted to beat me up, which he seemed to enjoy greatly... )

So in a lot of ways, I can see your point because I have a Remy Presas background too.

However, my Private lessons with Manong Ted Buot in Balintawak sound like this, 

"No....NO!... That's wrong!.... Where was your left? .... Paul, where was your Timing?....You were LATE!....DON'T LOOK AT MY STICK! Look in my eyes.... Paul, where is your lean? THe Lean is very important to timing!.... THAT"S A BABY STRIKE! Put your whole body into that one....I want to see the whole enchalada in there!"

End of one hour. Other manong Ted students will know what I mean. Much different then Professor in that every little thing we do is critiqued so we can get better, which is the way I like it, frankly.

So I have 2 very different experiences from very different Manong's. So really, I don't know if the conceptual focus and lienency was a Remy thing or a cultural FMA thing  (You weren't critiqued unless the teacher knew you could handle it). 

I enjoy reading the other responses so I can learn what other experiences were like.

 :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *
> However, my Private lessons with Manong Ted Buot in Balintawak sound like this,
> 
> ...



:rofl:


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## loki09789 (Dec 19, 2003)

Bobby sounded alot like that during one on one training, only it wasn't yelling.  I would be flying as fast as I could to keep up and he would be barely working while there was a string of corrections and critiques at a conversational tone - more irritating than yelling for me because it totally contrasted my effort level to keep up.  

He rewards effort though.  Application/grit is as important as skill for him during pressure drills.  If you are really moving in fight mode, he would say "good", "Come on, man", and stuff like that while he was also saying "keep your hand up", "I beat you there", "middle of the stick"... you know the game. He use to say he loves training cops and military because they already train for fighting and if they come for more training from him, they are motivated.  He loves motivated training.

Paul Martin


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