# Liu He Ba Fa



## Xue Sheng (Mar 3, 2008)

Liu He Ba Fa of Master Weilun Huang


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Mar 3, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Liu He Ba Fa of Master Weilun Huang


 

Beautiful.  The fact that he recovered from injury as well made it even more so and inspiring.  Thanks.


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## Steel Tiger (Mar 3, 2008)

I don't know about you but I saw elements of bagua in that form.  It makes me wonder if the nei jia are much closer in shape than we might think.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 4, 2008)

From what I recall Mr. Huang is the only person in the Miami area who teaches Liu he Ba fa he also teaches Bagua and I think Tai chi chuan.


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## newtothe dark (Mar 4, 2008)

Very clean lines loved the jing thanks.


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## East Winds (Mar 4, 2008)

More or less the form I learned many years ago, but performed with a slightly different emphasis in the  postures (and much more ability). His rooting is impeccable. Must say I like it!!!! 

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 4, 2008)

I will admit after I first posted questions about Liu He Ba Fa about a year ago I have seen a lot of videos and a few live demos and this one impresses me most.

And Steel Tiger 

I see a lot of the Bagua I use to train a lot of taiji and a bit of Xingyi and I agree that there are a lot of similarities to different Nei Jia forms... especially if they are done well.

EDIT
I just found this

Master Weilun Huang 
http://www.huangtaichi.com/

Also trained Yang style with Lou Tzi Ling who was a student of Yang Cheng Fu


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## oxy (Mar 5, 2008)

I can see how people can be impressed with this video, especially since it fits the definition of Taiji Bafa perfectly. First and foremost, it lacks the Xingyi influence. His arms are moving of their own accord: not synchronised with shifts in weight or footwork at all. He does the Taiji thing where a leg creeps backwards or forwards before shifting weight. Not Liu He Ba Fa. Not efficient use of force.

He does the Taiji thing where the movement starts from the shoulders and his arm whips out, elbow first. The feeling of the whip arm should be internal and should not show. It causes the arm to change its shape which is a no-no in Liu He Ba Fa because 1), it violates the everything-moves-at-once principle and 2), it presents a blatant opportunity for qinna.

His back arches backwards. He doesn't tuck his tailbone in (no Xingyi at all).

He looks at his hands and feet too much.

His arms cross the centre line too much.

His movements tell me that he wasn't taught all the applications of the so-called "transitions". In Liu He Ba Fa, the transitions are more important than the posture. This form (and others like it) does not show the Yi (intention) of transitions. Everything in Liu He Ba Fa has a purpose. Nothing is just happening to be "on the way" to the next posture.

In the spirit of everything having a purpose, many of his stances are too low for anything practical but with an increased danger of getting injured. Might as well not have a purpose at all.

His limbs stretch too much. Straight limbs + joint attacks != good. Straight limbs are an indicator of the fact that he uses his arms to generate force instead of his pelvis.

His feet does not turn.

He does the whole Taiji undulation thing. Not Liu He Ba Fa at all. Not good mechanics at all. It's why I prefer Liu He Ba Fa.

In short, this is the Wushu version of Liu He Ba Fa. Compare his form to the photos of Chan Yik Yan. There are absolutely no similarities. Whoever claims they are doing Liu He Ba Fa when they are doing this version of the form should... not. Paul Dillon's form is a lot better than this one and Paul Dillon's form has many problems.


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## East Winds (Mar 5, 2008)

Good to know that we have the worlds definitive authority on Liu He Ba Fa posting on this board.:erg:

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2008)

oxy said:


> He does the whole Taiji undulation thing. Not Liu He Ba Fa at all. Not good mechanics at all. It's why I prefer Liu He Ba Fa.


 
Dude  did you just dis taiji 

Could you explain what you mean by



oxy said:


> the whole Taiji undulation thing......Not good mechanics at all.


 
please


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## oxy (Mar 5, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Good to know that we have the worlds definitive authority on Liu He Ba Fa posting on this board.:erg:
> 
> Very best wishes



I don't claim to be the world's DEFINITIVE authority. But I definitely know more about it than you. You obviously have no understanding of Xingyi judging by our past discussions so it's quite clear you do Taiji Bafa, not Liu He Ba Fa.

Of course, no one needs to believe me. Like I said in my original post: maybe you can explain why none of his form matches any of the photos of Chan Yik Yan? Maybe you can explain why someone would create something like Liu He Ba Fa only to have it look like Taiji with different movements? Maybe you can explain why ALL of the writings on Liu He Ba Fa emphasise that everything moves together and how the performance in the video somehow achieves that when the guys arms are not moving in time with his weight and footwork?

It's kind of convenient that you continue to ignore my arguments with ad hominem and dismissal. I wonder why you have no other arguments than to cast doubt on my legitimacy? I really find it amusing that, because I'm not an expert at Liu He Ba Fa, all the things that I have said that comes directly from Chan Yik Yan's book suddenly becomes illegitimate and the ramblings of a madman, according to you. I really find it hard to believe you have a degree in science given all the lack of reasoning ability you show on this forum.

The thing is, I come from a line of teachers who've abandoned ALL of their other martial arts in preference of Liu He Ba Fa. They've gone to great lengths to erase the influence of their previous arts. Whereas compare this kind of dedication to others like you who instead of preserving the Liu He Ba Fa have just really added another form to Taiji. You can really tell when people on videos haven't really practiced Liu He Ba Fa that much, forgotten a lot of the principles, and just substituted Taiji into it because that's what they're body's used to.

I mean, the fact that you dismissed the principle that the transitions are MORE important than postures by casting doubt on my legitimacy instead of arguing that the principle is not in Liu He Ba Fa... (not to mention the fact that the principle is one talked about by Chan Yik Yan himself in his Liu He Ba Fa Book)...


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## oxy (Mar 5, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Dude  did you just dis taiji



Strangely enough, I'm taking Taiji lessons on Tuesdays and Thursdays because one of my colleagues (I guess I could call her a friend, now) is teaching Taiji.

And her Taiji has more Liu He Ba Fa than the guy in the video.

Of course, it's still Taiji, so the arms are still prone to moving by themselves.

But yes, I do dis Taiji. I place more value on the Bagua/Xingyi combination than I do Taiji. The way they move about, you can see that they place more emphasis on footwork than Taiji does. Luckily, my Taiji teacher also does Bagua, and you can see her understanding of footwork.

Luckily you've had a lot more experience in martial arts with good footwork and not just lived in a Taiji microcosm.



> Could you explain what you mean by





> The whole Taiji undulation thing....Not good mechanics at all.



Well, why do it so visibly in the first place?

If you look at Xingyi, you can easily see how their actions contain the essence of the "undulation" but it still looks really straight. It's all internalised. Because it's all about the Yi. The undulation, if present so visibly in Xingyi and Liu He Ba Fa, wrecks the skeletal structure required that would otherwise reduce muscle use.

It's in one of the Ba Fas, the whole skeletal structure thing.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2008)

Actually, in good taiji everything is linked and nothing is really moving independently

And to be honest as much as I respect my Xingyi teacher ability my taiji teacher is a better martial artist and he is also at least 20 years older than my Xingyi teacher.


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## East Winds (Mar 6, 2008)

Has this guy got rooting or what? But hey, what would I know about it?:rofl:

Very best wishes


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## East Winds (Mar 6, 2008)

sorry, forgot to add the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMqVzBK2K0w&feature=related


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 6, 2008)

East Winds said:


> sorry, forgot to add the link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMqVzBK2K0w&feature=related


 
http://www.wudanglongmen.com/xiaolingliu.html

Liu Xiao Ling  studied Liu He Ba Fa (Water Boxing) under Masters Li Dao Li and Liang Qi Zhong


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## oxy (Mar 7, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Has this guy got rooting or what? But hey, what would I know about it?:rofl:
> 
> Very best wishes



It's seems impossible for you not to twist my arguments into something I did not say or mean.

I know you are an expert on Taiji. You know all about Taiji rooting. But here's the newsflash: Liu He Ba Fa is not Taiji.

In the previous Liu He Ba Fa thread, I described what was essentially the Xingyi step for generating power and you dismissed it (because you don't know anything about it) as inferior. It was only when I mentioned that the step is a part of Xingyi that you mysteriously went quiet.

And considering how Liu He Ba Fa is considered to have elements of Xingyi in it and that you continually show to have no knowledge or the desire to learn about the Xingyi aspects of Liu He Ba Fa, I stand by my assessment that you do nothing but Taiji Bafa. You might as well just call your form another Taiji form.

So you know all about rooting in Taiji. Good for you. But my point is that you know nothing about LHBF, or Xingyi, for that matter.

On a side note: you still haven't told me why your form doesn't resemble anything in Chan Yik Yan's photos. You still haven't told me why what I say, which I unashamedly lifted from Chan Yik Yan's own writings (not to mention the LHBF poem), is wrong. Do you wish to claim that you know more about Liu He Ba Fa than Chan Yik Yan?


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## oxy (Mar 7, 2008)

East Winds said:


> sorry, forgot to add the link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMqVzBK2K0w&feature=related



One of my teacher's students gave his DVD.

I've seen it.

More Taiji Bafa. Which is probably why you're attracted to it.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2008)

oxy said:


> And considering how Liu He Ba Fa is considered to have elements of Xingyi in it and that you continually show to have no knowledge or the desire to learn about the Xingyi aspects of Liu He Ba Fa, I stand by my assessment that you do nothing but Taiji Bafa. You might as well just call your form another Taiji form.


 
I cannot debate Liu He Ba Fa and I will try not to, I have never trained it and I have only seen it in video.

Not trying to start an argument here, actually I am just trying to jog my old memory, but didn't we establish in one of our earlier discussions about Liu He Ba Fa that although there are obvious Xingyi, Bagua Taiji elements that the stepping was different than Xingyi as well, since Xingyi has a tendency to root rather strongly on attack and application?


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## oxy (Mar 8, 2008)

I recall you saying that you haven't seen the kind of "rooting" in my video. I recall you saying that the step wasn't the only important part of Xingyi.

I do recall saying that LHBF does root completely on attack but only at the moment of contact. That there is no point in continuing the root as it was since the "fight" continues, most probably requiring different reaction.

I do recall saying that LHBF relies on up and down movement of weight as well as backwards and forwards. I do recall me asking whether an important part of rooting was that the torso stayed at the same height off the ground and you answering in the affirmative. I recall replying to that saying that's probably the difference between LHBF and other arts in that our kind of rooting allows us to have up and down movement. I recall East Winds' criticism of my form as too much movement of the torso, which I gather was the up-and-downness, hence why I asked if Taiji rooting was that the torso stayed at the same height off the ground.

I do recall trying to explain, at great length, that the backfoot turning is essentially the same as the Xingyi step from a force generating perspective but not necessarily in appearance. I do recall saying that LHBF is equally 7/3 as well as 4/6 stance (to highlight the mostly 7/3 stance of Taiji and the mostly 4/6 stance of Xingyi) and hence it's slight difference to the Xingyi step.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2008)

thanks


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## JadeDragon3 (Apr 4, 2008)

Here are a few words my Sifu (John Dufresne) gave on the topic.....

Well even the styles you mentioned can have Six Harmonies to initiate the movements- in-fact there are such six harmony methods already. It would be like asking how do I know where the wind begins? You dont- you just feel the breeze- So to answer your question-"By the results".
Dont get me wrong- there are so many Six Harmony styles unfortunatly it isnt the style that signifies the intent- its the intent that signifies the style. So this is why I am so dissapointed when I hear about specific Six Harmony methods and being explained by movements- externally speaking, If the intent is pure and in Harmony so will the movements- 
Now something that I sent to Jade but obviously he did not get it yet- Please understand that when we start speaking to deeply about Six Harmony, it is impossible to do so without bringing the devine natureinto it. I dont normally even talk about this stuff especially on a forum- Just relize the Tao is simply the way of the world. It can be dangerous to stay within the Tao when we practise, as martial artists; because our intent is to deceive or manipulate- "Make your opponent think you are far when yo are near"
It is completely impossible to acheive complete harmony in this way and actually very dangerous spiritually speaking. Just understand that the Tao is a physical way to acheive a devine understanding- and for that we learn when we are ready to accept it- not by training just by yeilding.

Just one more thing (our Will is not a good thing to have)- This is what keeps us within the Tao and enevitably staying in circles for a lifetime. Up down, hot cold, black white, male female- we are taught from the beginning of our lives to always resist the action- through martial training we learn to acept,(Most people would be satisfied with the results) However if the intent is to manupulate or deceive or to get your Will, this is the danger I speak of. Remeber when I mentioned Xing-I and the separation of Heart and Mind- at the moment our Minds become separated from the heart- "the ego is created" Our ego's will be our Will- If we continue to study in this manner for a life time- can you imagine how bent we become? and how we would ultimatly become what we hate. So to simplify, and as the Tao states; Yin will become Yang and Yang will become Yin- or good will become bad and bad will become good. How do I not become subject to a study that I put my faith in (MA)? 
By finding the Devine Nature- it is ultimatly the Will not ours. Its a small path very few find it but those who do, can experience a complete change- a real change and one not subject to action reaction of the world.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 4, 2008)

I think oxy raises some good points but perhaps his manner is a bit rough.

When I lived in Florida, I considered Huang one of the top IMA players in the state. His skills are very good, but I would agree that his taiji training colors most of what I've seen him do.

This version of liuhebafa seems no different. If I'm not mistaken he isn't actually doing the liuhebafa form but a mixture of moves that perhaps show some of his liuhebafa flavor. The postures certainly do seem to be more taiji influenced than most other liuhebafa that I've seen. 

However, having an influence from another art doesn't seem out of place for liuhebafa. The branch here in Taiwan is heavily influenced by Cheng Man-ching taiji since Tao Ping-siang was also a disciple of his.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 5, 2008)

Woops. I forgot to actually address some of oxy's points.

Developing up/down jins is a specialty of xingyi and bagua. Any good xingyi/bagua guy will tell you it's a major advantage over most taiji players. For some bizarre reason that I've never understood, most taiji player think you should never move up and down in your form -- ensuring that most taiji players are only capable in a narrow range of motion. Take them out of that narrow range and taiji becomes difficult to use. The only taiji style that I know of that actually incorporates up/down motion is the Chen Pan-ling form that I do.

Judging from oxy's comments he's also saying that the liuhebafa uses a mobile root. Again, that's something that I've only really heard talked about in bagua. Taiji rooting is more stable. So there are real differences in the arts.

However, the hands don't have to move with the body as oxy says, at least as far as I know. Once the san neihe (three internal connections) are accomplished, the arms are connected internally. They don't need to be powered by body mechanics (the san waihe -- external connections) to make the moves work. At least not to the same degree.  

Actually I would argue that the three external connections simple take on a new, deeper meaning at that stage beyond the body mechanics that most people think of.


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## ggg214 (Apr 6, 2008)

http://www.answers.com/liu he ba fa
there is some info about liu he ba fa.
before reading this, i think the six harmonies is basic requirement of every CMA, which is three internal harmornies and three external harmonies: hand and foot combine, elbow and knee combine etc.
but liu he ba fa is different, and all the harmonise are kinda of spiritual. what is the explaination of these six and these ba fa? how does it differ from taiji or other internal MA?
i am looking forward to the answer. thanks


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## oxy (Apr 7, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> I think oxy raises some good points but perhaps his manner is a bit rough.



And that's just the polite way of saying it! :rofl:



> However, having an influence from another art doesn't seem out of place for liuhebafa. The branch here in Taiwan is heavily influenced by Cheng Man-ching taiji since Tao Ping-siang was also a disciple of his.



LHBF encourages absorbing from other arts (moreso than any other, in my experience). I think the Hong Kong branch has a bit of CMC influence as well. But the majority of LHBF on the internet doesn't preserve the LHBF specific or even the Xingyi/Bagua specific stuff you mentioned in your later past.



> Woops. I forgot to actually address some of oxy's points.



It might be contagious! :rofl:



> Developing up/down jins is a specialty of xingyi and bagua. Any good xingyi/bagua guy will tell you it's a major advantage over most taiji players. For some bizarre reason that I've never understood, most taiji player think you should never move up and down in your form -- ensuring that most taiji players are only capable in a narrow range of motion. Take them out of that narrow range and taiji becomes difficult to use. The only taiji style that I know of that actually incorporates up/down motion is the Chen Pan-ling form that I do.



Thanks for confirming the up/down jins in LHBF. The up and downness of LHBF is expressed through circular motion in the vertical plane (and the resulting vertical orientation of arms) throughout a good part of the forms. The general feeling I get is to use vertical jins to counter horizontal jins and vice versa.

I had a video on the internet but the up/down jins in my form are done poorly, so that probably coloured the views of some.

The up/down jins of LHBF shouldn't be as visible as in my video, but you should still get the feeling it's there by watching it. My teacher had the opportunity to see Chan Yik Yan once and he was demonstrating a few moves. My teacher and not many others saw the up/down jins in his movements. Combined with the fact that Chan Yik Yan would not show any moves to a student more than three times, it's understandable how it would be missing from many other LHBF.

The up/down jins of LHBF should be viewed more as explosion/implosion.



> Judging from oxy's comments he's also saying that the liuhebafa uses a mobile root. Again, that's something that I've only really heard talked about in bagua. Taiji rooting is more stable. So there are real differences in the arts.



The bagua influence on LHBF isn't as visible in the main form as the other internal arts. It's all in the root.



> However, the hands don't have to move with the body as oxy says, at least as far as I know. Once the san neihe (three internal connections) are accomplished, the arms are connected internally. They don't need to be powered by body mechanics (the san waihe -- external connections) to make the moves work. At least not to the same degree.
> 
> Actually I would argue that the three external connections simple take on a new, deeper meaning at that stage beyond the body mechanics that most people think of.



What you say is right.

However, as is my understanding, it's very difficult to get the internal connections if a student doesn't learn to do it externally first. In my teacher's school, we use Praying Mantis as a stepping stone to LHBF. We try to hammer in the external connections in such a way that they are externally connected but without the muscle tension. The fourth Praying Mantis form that we teach (Plum Flower Fist) is a very soft form and often looked down upon by Praying Mantises but a student normally begins to understand the internal connections.

The internal connections, as I understand it, are not driven by body mechanics (as you say): they are driven by intention, hence the Xin Yi in the LHBF name. The guy on the video doesn't seem to have the intent of connection. His arms are waving about through body mechanics. In my teacher's school, we try to knock it out of the student through the fourth Praying Mantis form we teach.

Once the internal connections are forming, the arms don't necessarily follow the body (as you say). But they still should express the explode/implode quality of LHBF in time with the up/down jins.


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## oxy (Apr 7, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> http://www.answers.com/liu he ba fa
> there is some info about liu he ba fa.
> before reading this, i think the six harmonies is basic requirement of every CMA, which is three internal harmornies and three external harmonies: hand and foot combine, elbow and knee combine etc.
> but liu he ba fa is different, and all the harmonise are kinda of spiritual. what is the explaination of these six and these ba fa? how does it differ from taiji or other internal MA?
> i am looking forward to the answer. thanks



I think there may be a confusion (in some LHBF circles) as to what the six harmonies are. The three internal/external system is compatible with LHBF, but they are actually present in the Eight Methods part of the name.

The six LHBF harmonies:

Body unites with the Mind.
Mind unites with the Intent.
Intent unites with the Chi (internal energy).
Chi unites with the Spirit.
Spirit unites with Movement.
Movement unites with Emptiness.

I wouldn't call this spiritual. You have to understand that this was necessarily written in the language of the era.

Let's focus on the middle two harmonies.

One of the sayings in LHBF is "where there's Yi, there's Chi". The Yi (intent) is similar to the Yi in Xingyi. The shape of the form is the intent (but not necessarily how it would like in application). By trying to maintain your shape during application, you can generate "Chi" easier. I'm not a "Chi" type of person, so my understanding is that martial "Chi" IS Yi.

When you have the right intention, your form becomes quite lively without actively appearing so. This is the Spirit. In the Five Word Poem of LHBF, one line says: eyes should be like lightning. If you have intent, it is shown through your eyes and shows spirit.

One interesting thing I noticed right now is the alternation between the tangible and the abstract.

Like I said, the Eight Methods part embodies the other six harmonies:

Chi. Cultivate the Chi using the Spirit.
Bones (structure). Internal power from the structure comes from constant practice.
Form. Transform your movement through the practice of the [LiuHeBaFa] form.
Follow. Connect like a circle and respond.
Lift. Hold your posture upright.
Return. [Like a wave,] constantly move forward, back, and reverse.
Restrain. Maintain stillness [of the mind].
Conceal. Develop the ability to conceal [your technique, power, and intent] before you manifest [your attack].

The Six LHBF Harmonies are intimately connected to the Eight Methods.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 7, 2008)

Oxy,
Wow. Very informative posts.

"LHBF encourages absorbing from other arts (moreso than any other, in my experience). I think the Hong Kong branch has a bit of CMC influence as well. But the majority of LHBF on the internet doesn't preserve the LHBF specific or even the Xingyi/Bagua specific stuff you mentioned in your later past."

Really? How did that happen? I thought the CMC influence would only extend over the Taiwan branch. How do you feel about that influence? Is it a good thing?

"The general feeling I get is to use vertical jins to counter horizontal jins and vice versa...The up/down jins of LHBF should be viewed more as explosion/implosion."

Yes, I agree. You're actually giving some strong hints there about the nature of the vertical jins. Good stuff.

Your points about the liuhe in LHBF are also well taken. I had forgotten that there's a difference in the more common liuhe from xingyi and the way that LHBF decribes them. Your description of the liuhe in LHBF shows a lot more sublety and is more advanced when compared to the liuhe from xingyi. The subleties in the san neihe are especially pronounced.

So do you feel that LHBF has picked up inlfuences from the other three IMAs or do you think it has it's own shenfa? I'm still a little confused by that.

BTW, if you're ever in Taiwan, look me up.


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## oxy (Apr 8, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> "LHBF encourages absorbing from other arts (moreso than any other, in my experience). I think the Hong Kong branch has a bit of CMC influence as well. But the majority of LHBF on the internet doesn't preserve the LHBF specific or even the Xingyi/Bagua specific stuff you mentioned in your later past."
> 
> Really? How did that happen? I thought the CMC influence would only extend over the Taiwan branch. How do you feel about that influence? Is it a good thing?
> 
> So do you feel that LHBF has picked up inlfuences from the other three IMAs or do you think it has it's own shenfa? I'm still a little confused by that.



I don't think the CMC influence was deliberate. CMC Taiji did have a good reputation in Hong Kong while my teacher lived there. Chan Yik Yan did teach in Singapore (I think) for a while, but I don't know about CMC Taiji in Singapore.

From what I've seen of CMC videos, LHBF has a similar "front on" body positioning. I tend to see it as a good influence.

Some people hold the view that LHBF is nothing more than just the three mainstream internal arts put together. If that's the case, LHBF would have picked up a lot of influences. I think LHBF's own shenfa is its heavy emphasis on intent. In my practice of LHBF, even though my eyes are looking forward, I feel that my actual self is in the front lobe of my brain which pulls the rest of my body into movement. I think that's the beginning of what makes LHBF's Yi come from the Xin. Xin is often translated as "heart" but it seems more like its talking about the "core".

So how LHBF incorporates other martial arts techniques is by trying to convert them into an intent. So, for example, you have the circular movements of Taiji and Bagua, but because your movements come from your intent, those circles are smaller and as a result, your action looks like a straight line movement.

One thing in LHBF, which I don't know about the other arts, is its wavelike movement. The purpose of that is to destabilise and destructurise(?) the component by using wave energy. So if you want to pull them down, first you push them up and vice versa. This is done in vertical ellipses much like what happens in gravity waves. You are basically trying to induce a standing wave in your opponent (eg Tacoma Narrows bridge incident). This is where I think the mobile root comes in handy. The up and down jins are incorporated with foot work so that you can generate a standing wave but you can also counter any attempts to induce a standing wave in you (eg break step marching).



> Your description of the liuhe in LHBF shows a lot more sublety and is more advanced when compared to the liuhe from xingyi. The subleties in the san neihe are especially pronounced.


I wouldn't call them more advanced. I just see them as talking about different things. The Xingyi six harmonies seem to be embodied in the Eight Methods instead so it's not like it's less important to LHBF.


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## JadeDragon3 (Apr 8, 2008)

http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxliuhe.htm

If you click on the link above you will find some info on Six Harmonies. You will also see if you look at my previous post that it was an e-mail from my teacher who is mentioned at the bottom of that link and I just copied what he said about 6 harmonies onto the post. But a lot of people claim to know the "true" six Harmonies but really don't. It gets really deep and complicated. Its more than just keeping your hand in harmony (in line) with your feet. It's more than keeping your elbows in harmony (in line)with your knees, and its more than keeping your shoulders in line (or harmony) hips. Re-read the post that posted earlier. That is a e-mail from my teacher John Dufresne who is one of the few in this country that know and understand the TRUE six harmonies. He was actually a little upset that the person that put together the website for the link above used his name because six harmonies is much more than what they say. It doesn't give a acurate discription of Six Harmonies.


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## oxy (Apr 8, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> But a lot of people claim to know the "true" six Harmonies but really don't. It gets really deep and complicated. Its more than just keeping your hand in harmony (in line) with your feet. It's more than keeping your elbows in harmony (in line)with your knees, and its more than keeping your shoulders in line (or harmony) hips. Re-read the post that posted earlier. That is a e-mail from my teacher John Dufresne who is one of the few in this country that know and understand the TRUE six harmonies.



You know, you could re-read my post as well. The LHBF Six Harmonies are different from the Six Harmonies you mention.



> He was actually a little upset that the person that put together the website for the link above used his name because six harmonies is much more than what they say. It doesn't give a acurate discription of Six Harmonies.



I take it you're referring to Answers.com .

It's all opinion in the end. It's unfortunate people keep getting the wrong idea about collaborative encyclopaediae on the internet. It's not supposed to tell anything about the "ultimate truth" or what have you, otherwise we'd be looking to it for the meaning of life. No, it's about documenting the common understanding of subject matter.

Other people can also say your teacher doesn't know the true Six Harmonies, for example. And these other people can also have teachers who may be just as good or better than your teachers. See the problem this poses for collaborative resources?


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## JadeDragon3 (Apr 8, 2008)

oxy said:


> You know, you could re-read my post as well. The LHBF Six Harmonies are different from the Six Harmonies you mention.
> 
> *Other people can also say your teacher doesn't know the true Six Harmonies, for example.* And these other people can also have teachers who may be just as good or better than your teachers. See the problem this poses for collaborative resources?


 
The can say that but I know that he knows the true Six Harmonies and not some watyered down version. He learned it from Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng himself. As for them having teachers better than mine that might be so, but I doubt it. My teacher has been in Chinese martial arts for 35+ years, lived in China for 7 years, and learned from an excellent teacher (Grandmaster Ng) who I also learned from for a brief period (2 1/2 years). I've been with my current teacher (John Dufresne) for 20 years. My teacher has given numerous seminars on the topic as well as on Hsing I, Ba Qua, and Yang style Tai Chi. He was on the USKFWF commitee back in the early 90's with Anthony Goh. You ask anyone in martial arts about my teacher and they will tell you that he know his Sh**.

By the way, what makes you an authority on Six Harmonies? What are your credentials?

And no I'm not trying to start an arguement. I was just stating that there is more to Six Harmonies and that there is a kind of spiritual side to it as well.


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## oxy (Apr 8, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> The can say that but I know that he knows the true Six Harmonies and not some watyered down version.



Again, it's a matter of opinion in the end.

How do you know this hypothetical student doesn't know that his hypothetical teacher ALSO know the true Six Harmonies?

It's all opinion.



> He learned it from Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng himself. As for them having teachers better than mine that might be so, but I doubt it. My teacher has been in Chinese martial arts for 35+ years, lived in China for 7 years, and learned from an excellent teacher (Grandmaster Ng) who I also learned from for a brief period (2 1/2 years). I've been with my current teacher (John Dufresne) for 20 years. My teacher has given numerous seminars on the topic as well as on Hsing I, Ba Qua, and Yang style Tai Chi.



Great. Have you actually noticed that this thread is about LHBF? Therefore, the Six Harmonies you mention are not completely relevant as the LHBF Six Harmonies. I've mentioned this many times now. It's even in the bit you quoted from me.

If you want to have an ego match:

My teacher is Chinese. He can read and WRITE Classical Chinese. He's read many Classical Chinese texts on philosophy and martial arts. Hell, even in this day and age, people who can read Traditional Chinese is quite rare, let alone Classical Chinese.

How many seminars has your teacher given on the Classical Chinese texts of Six Harmony theory (LHBF or otherwise) or other martial arts?



> He was on the USKFWF commitee back in the early 90's with Anthony Goh. You ask anyone in martial arts about my teacher and they will tell you that he know his Sh**.



You ask any person knowledgeable in Classical Chinese and they'll tell you my teacher knows his ****. You ask any person knowledgeable in Chinese philosophy and they'll tell you my teacher knows his ****.

Does your teacher know any **** in regards to the Chinese language and philosophy and how to interpret things like the Six Harmonies (LHBF or otherwise)?



> By the way, what makes you an authority on Six Harmonies? What are your credentials?



To borrow a phrase from evolutionary biologists: there are no authorities - just experts.

Since this thread is talking about LHBF, and the fact that I am a student of LHBF, I have at least learned what the *LHBF Six Harmonies* are. If you feel so strongly about your teacher, great. But unless he does LHBF, your comments are irrelevant.

I don't pretend to know too much. Everything I've said on this website about LHBF, if I'm not familiar with, I defer to my teacher and Chan Yik Yan's words.



> And no I'm not trying to start an arguement. I was just stating that there is more to Six Harmonies and that there is a kind of spiritual side to it as well.



If you argue that there is a spiritual side to the Six Harmonies, then I suggest you and your teacher know nothing about it. I would suggest that you and your teacher lack the cultural/historical understanding of Chinese philosophy to interpret it correctly. Instead, you reason with inadequate english translations and add New Age interpretations to it.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 8, 2008)

oxy said:


> If you argue that there is a spiritual side to the Six Harmonies, then I suggest you and your teacher know nothing about it. I would suggest that you and your teacher lack the cultural/historical understanding of Chinese philosophy to interpret it correctly. Instead, you reason with inadequate english translations and add New Age interpretations to it.


 
I all fairness it could depend on how someone defines spirituality which gets into an area I do not wish to go since it can vary greatly from person to person and becomes a very personal thing. 

However with that said I do not consider the 6 harmonies as being spiritual, but that is my take on them. Others may see the balance they talk about as spiritual, I simply do not. I Also think you would be hard pressed to find a traditional Chinese Martial Arts Sifu from China, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. that would talk about the spirituality of the 6 harmonies. But I have not talked with them all so it is possible that some do, just not in my experience.

the SIX HARMONIES


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## JadeDragon3 (Apr 8, 2008)

Oxy...Why such hostility? I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just stating that there is more to it than the hands,feet, elbows, knees, shoulders, and hands being "in harmony" with each other. That link that I posted makes it sound like thats all there is to it and its not. 

By the way who is your teacher? There are few people that teach this in the U.S.. It's kinda rare to find a teacher that teaches this. 

Also, you ask how do I know that my teacher and his teacher learned the real six harmonies?  A person can say that about anything then by your rational. How do we know that Dr. Masaki Hatsumi (34th generation Grandmaster of Nijutsu) learned real ninjutsu.  How do we know that any one learned real kung fu? How do we know that man really walked on the moon, that could have been filmed in Hollywood.  Get the picture?

Again I'm not trying to start some fued with you. Just trying to say there is more to it than what a lot of people think. If you already know this then great. Some people don't know this.


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## JadeDragon3 (Apr 8, 2008)

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/others/19881-six-harmonies.html


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## oxy (Apr 8, 2008)

> http://www.dragonslist.com/discussio...harmonies.html



This is the first sentence of your thread:

"Does anybody practice Six Harmonies style kung fu?"

The video that Xue Sheng posted is of Liu He Ba Fa. The Six Harmonies you are talking about is completely different art to Liu He Ba Fa.



> Oxy...Why such hostility? I'm not trying to argue with you.



I don't know if I call it hostility, but let's treat it as such anyway.

I am hostile but not because I think you want to start an argument. I am hostile because, after repeatedly saying so, you still don't understand that the Six Harmonies you are talking about is NOT Liu He Ba Fa.



> Also, you ask how do I know that my teacher and his teacher learned the real six harmonies? A person can say that about anything then by your rational. How do we know that Dr. Masaki Hatsumi (34th generation Grandmaster of Nijutsu) learned real ninjutsu. How do we know that any one learned real kung fu? How do we know that man really walked on the moon, that could have been filmed in Hollywood. Get the picture?



The point you are making is precisely MY point.

In your opinion, your teacher knows every single thing. But that's your subjective opinion. You try to declare your Sifu as the only reliable authority, but there is no reason we should believe you or him.

Get the picture?



> Again I'm not trying to start some fued with you. Just trying to say there is more to it than what a lot of people think. If you already know this then great. Some people don't know this.



And I keep telling you Liu He Ba Fa is not the Six Harmonies you are talking about.



> By the way who is your teacher? There are few people that teach this in the U.S.. It's kinda rare to find a teacher that teaches this.



I live in Australia, for one thing.

Second, I don't know how rare your art is. Liu He Ba Fa, which I repeat is a completely different to the Six Harmonies you are talking about, has quite a few teachers around.

So, for the last time, Liu He Ba Fa (which translates to Six Harmonies + Eight Methods) is different from your Six Harmonies (which, strangely enough, translates to Six Harmonies; but without the Eight Methods).


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 8, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> However with that said I do not consider the 6 harmonies as being spiritual, but that is my take on them. Others may see the balance they talk about as spiritual, I simply do not. I Also think you would be hard pressed to find a traditional Chinese Martial Arts Sifu from China, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. that would talk about the spirituality of the 6 harmonies. But I have not talked with them all so it is possible that some do, just not in my experience.
> 
> the SIX HARMONIES



I would have to strongly disagree with that. 

In Western terms, much of what either versions of the liuhe discuss could only be understood through what is known as spirituality. The concepts of wuji, taiji, sancai, sixiang, wuxing, liuhe, etc. are a type of Chinese science to be sure, but it's holistic nature makes it very different from Western science. From that perspective, it would most assuredly require a spiritual bent.

We often forget that traditional Chinese thinking is very, very different from contemporary Western thinking.

As to the link to Ms. Zorya, I would simply suggest a better source. 

Oxy has pointed out many times now that there are two versions of the liuhe being discussed in the thread. Liuhebafa simply has it's own way of describing those concepts -- a way IMO that goes a bit beyond the more commonly thought of liuhe that lie at the basis of some more familiar arts like xingyiquan.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 8, 2008)

oxy said:


> So, for the last time, Liu He Ba Fa (which translates to Six Harmonies + Eight Methods) is different from your Six Harmonies (which, strangely enough, translates to Six Harmonies; but without the Eight Methods).


 
The six harmonies I posted are related to Xingyiquan and do not necessarily have anything to do with Liu He Ba Fa.

Not knowing Liu He Ba Fa I wold not know if there was anything similar to the XIngyiquan 6 harmonies. 

But for the record I do know that Liu He Ba Fa (6 harmonies 8 methods) is not saying the samething as Xingyiquan 6 Harmonies


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 8, 2008)

oxy said:


> I don't think the CMC influence was deliberate. CMC Taiji did have a good reputation in Hong Kong while my teacher lived there. Chan Yik Yan did teach in Singapore (I think) for a while, but I don't know about CMC Taiji in Singapore.
> 
> From what I've seen of CMC videos, LHBF has a similar "front on" body positioning. I tend to see it as a good influence.
> 
> Some people hold the view that LHBF is nothing more than just the three mainstream internal arts put together. If that's the case, LHBF would have picked up a lot of influences. I think LHBF's own shenfa is its heavy emphasis on intent. In my practice of LHBF, even though my eyes are looking forward, I feel that my actual self is in the front lobe of my brain which pulls the rest of my body into movement. I think that's the beginning of what makes LHBF's Yi come from the Xin. Xin is often translated as "heart" but it seems more like its talking about the "core".



Interesting. I wasn't aware that CMC's influenced had extended into Hong Kong LHBF circles. 

As to the heavy emphasis on intent, the other three internal arts show different ways of using it that may shed some light on what you're describing as LHBF use of intent.

When I did xingyi a lot I also had a very forward feeling of intent and I felt at the time could roll over most anything that stood in my way. But my taiji teacher showed me that always having the yi (intent) pull you forward makes you pretty vulnerable to arts like taiji that value yielding. By yielding the xingyi intent could be swallowed whole and used against him if the xingyi guy isn't careful.

It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that LHBF may blend the forward energy and intent of xingyi with the knowledge (possibly from taiji?) that only using such intent can be used against you. Therefore LHBF opens up a wider range of options. 

I was always under the impression that this is why it was considered an amalgam of the three arts and yet slightly superior to those individually. It seems to be an attempt to make up for the deficiencies that each of those three arts have individually while saying something possibly unique in it's own way.

In any event, thanks for the info on this. LHBF is fascinating.


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## ggg214 (Apr 8, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> I was always under the impression that this is why it was considered an amalgam of the three arts and yet slightly superior to those individually. It seems to be an attempt to make up for the deficiencies that each of those three arts have individually while saying something possibly unique in it's own way.
> 
> In any event, thanks for the info on this. LHBF is fascinating.


 
these words of you may bring more conflict from three arts practitioners. i do understand that you believe LHBF is the best of the best, as i have the same experience when playing taiji. but later i found out that there is no perfect thing in the world, even your loved LHBF and my Taiji. if so, you don't need to higher your LHBF by lower down other arts.

i have heard of LHBF in my living place, but until now i don't have a chance to meet with them. so i am so glad to find this topic in this forum, and talking with you. as you said your six harmonies is different from taiji or xingyi, with my short experience in taiji, i know taiji has specific requirement to achieve its own six harmonies, as chen style's &#20843;&#38754;&#25903;&#25745; &#65288;Xue: plz help me to translate these words!&#65289;. how dose your style do in training, if you are allowed to give us some hints?

and do you have some experience in application with other arts, as push-hands(i have been told by my master that LHBF also play push-hands) etc?


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 8, 2008)

ggg214 said:


> these words of you may bring more conflict from three arts practitioners. i do understand that you believe LHBF is the best of the best, as i have the same experience when playing taiji. but later i found out that there is no perfect thing in the world, even your loved LHBF and my Taiji. if so, you don't need to higher your LHBF by lower down other arts.



First off, I don't even study LHBF. It's next on my list. I've just talked with the local teachers about it. But I have done xingyi, bagua, and taiji for a while and I know that each of the arts have weaknesses. It's just the nature of the game. Nothings perfect. It seems that _perhaps_ LHBF is an art that tries to rectify those deficiencies. That doesn't mean that LHBF is perfect or that it's necessarily a superior art, just that perhaps its goals are only attainable to people that have already studied the other three arts already. That's why I'm interested in it.

So it's unnecessary to see my statements as "putting down" other arts. And perhaps "superior" is a poor choice of words.



> with my short experience in taiji, i know taiji has specific requirement to achieve its own six harmonies, as chen style's &#20843;&#38754;&#25903;&#25745; &#65288;Xue: plz help me to translate these words!&#65289;. how dose your style do in training, if you are allowed to give us some hints?
> 
> and do you have some experience in application with other arts, as push-hands(i have been told by my master that LHBF also play push-hands) etc?



The Chinese you quoted is ba mian zhi cheng -- prop up the eight sides. Whether or not  that requirement in Chen is an equivalent to one of the six harmonies being discussed will depend on how the group that uses it interprets it into physical motion and energetically. 

Yes, I have done PH for years and with many different arts.


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## oxy (Apr 8, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> The six harmonies I posted are related to Xingyiquan and do not necessarily have anything to do with Liu He Ba Fa.
> 
> Not knowing Liu He Ba Fa I wold not know if there was anything similar to the XIngyiquan 6 harmonies.
> 
> But for the record I do know that Liu He Ba Fa (6 harmonies 8 methods) is not saying the samething as Xingyiquan 6 Harmonies



My reply was to JadeDragon3.


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## oxy (Apr 9, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> When I did xingyi a lot I also had a very forward feeling of intent and I felt at the time could roll over most anything that stood in my way. But my taiji teacher showed me that always having the yi (intent) pull you forward makes you pretty vulnerable to arts like taiji that value yielding. By yielding the xingyi intent could be swallowed whole and used against him if the xingyi guy isn't careful.



That feeling I get is not pulling me forward, just pulling me into motion. You may have heard the phrase, the mind moves, the body follows. That's basically LHBF intent but we are a bit more anal on that point. For example, the mistake we really go after is people looking at their hands, or their arms, or their feet, or the ground in front of them when they're doing the form. Because your mind is no longer leading, but following your body.

Let's say you want to pull someone down. What you try to visualise in your mind is first an expansion outwards, then a quick implosion. In my LHBF practice, the body's own trained muscle memory follows by itself. I can't do it regularly, but that's the kind of effect you want. When you look forward and not at your body parts, your external connections are learned by your muscles and you get a mental image of your body shape and you are well on your way of developing intent.



> It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that LHBF may blend the forward energy and intent of xingyi with the knowledge (possibly from taiji?) that only using such intent can be used against you. Therefore LHBF opens up a wider range of options.



I mentioned vertical circles earlier. In LHBF, the you draw the vertical circle by first going up, then forward, the down, then back to yourself. The size of this circle varies. And sometimes you start from the bottom of that circle. Sometimes you step (Xingyi style) when you do the push up and forward and sometimes when you do the pull down and towards yourself.

Whichever way you do it, you must do the complete circle. So the forward energy and intent is only half of the circle. And I know that this may have arose from the my use of the word "pull".



> I was always under the impression that this is why it was considered an amalgam of the three arts and yet slightly superior to those individually. It seems to be an attempt to make up for the deficiencies that each of those three arts have individually while saying something possibly unique in it's own way.



I tend to think that it's considered an amalgam from how it looks.
My teacher, when he lived in Hong Kong, would practice in Victoria Park everyday. And he's been approached by people saying that it looks like Taiji, but then it also looks like Xingyi, but then etc etc.

From my discussions with Xue Sheng, it seems you can understand quite a lot about LHBF even if you only know a bit of Bagua and a good deal of Xingyi, so I don't think LHBF has a lot of uniqueness.

The thing with LHBF, and all learning, is that you should be thinking about it even if you're not in class time. And you should be getting a feel of things besides your main art. Right now, I'm learning Taiji at the place I work and adding to my understanding of LHBF. And I learn to understand the Taiji form from a LHBF perspective. If you take responsibility for your learning and your intiative to learn on your own, then any art can appear to have uniqueness because they're thinking further ahead of others.


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## ggg214 (Apr 9, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> First off, I don't even study LHBF. It's next on my list. I've just talked with the local teachers about it. But I have done xingyi, bagua, and taiji for a while and I know that each of the arts have weaknesses. It's just the nature of the game. Nothings perfect. It seems that _perhaps_ LHBF is an art that tries to rectify those deficiencies. That doesn't mean that LHBF is perfect or that it's necessarily a superior art, just that perhaps its goals are only attainable to people that have already studied the other three arts already. That's why I'm interested in it.
> 
> So it's unnecessary to see my statements as "putting down" other arts. And perhaps "superior" is a poor choice of words.
> 
> ...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> I would have to strongly disagree with that.
> 
> In Western terms, much of what either versions of the liuhe discuss could only be understood through what is known as spirituality. The concepts of wuji, taiji, sancai, sixiang, wuxing, liuhe, etc. are a type of Chinese science to be sure, but it's holistic nature makes it very different from Western science. From that perspective, it would most assuredly require a spiritual bent.
> 
> ...


 
I don't quite follow why the strong disagreement to this?



Xue Sheng said:


> I all fairness it could depend on how someone defines spirituality which gets into an area I do not wish to go since it can vary greatly from person to person and becomes a very personal thing.
> 
> However with that said I do not consider the 6 harmonies as being spiritual, but that is my take on them. Others may see the balance they talk about as spiritual, I simply do not. I Also think you would be hard pressed to find a traditional Chinese Martial Arts Sifu from China, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. that would talk about the spirituality of the 6 harmonies. But I have not talked with them all so it is possible that some do, just not in my experience.
> 
> the SIX HARMONIES


 
I was trying so VERY hard to be diplomatic too 

I tend to approach all CMA from a Chinese way of thinking that is what all my sifus have been or it has only been a 1 generation separation. I do not see the 6 harmonies as spiritual that is all.

Although I am a westerner I tend not to approach this from a western POV. Could also by half my family is not Westerner by marriage and my wife is a TCM OMD from China so my views tend to be influenced by her as well. 

Also could be I have read WAAAAAAY to much Chinese stuff to be considered healthy too :uhyeah:

as I said (and to note I hate quoting myself)



Xue Sheng said:


> I all fairness it could depend on how someone defines spirituality which gets into an area I do not wish to go since it can vary greatly from person to person and becomes a very personal thing....
> 
> ...Others may see the balance they talk about as spiritual, I simply do not. ...


 
If you are approaching this form a western perspective I have no doubt it is seen as spiritual (this tends to irk me and I could go more into why but then that is stuff of another rather flamatory post and I have grown a bit since my first post at MT and I now try diplomacy more today than frontal assault, well... that and moderator warnings ). I am not approaching this from the western POV and to be honest I do not believe Oxy is either but I would not speak for Oxy.

Also my followup post that appears to have been done right about the same time as yours that clarified that I was talking Xingyiquan Liu He not Liu He Ba Fa. I can't talk Liu He Ba Fa, I do not train it and no little about it beyond what I read here on MT

I made the initial error when I saw liu he and assigning it to Xingyiquan because that is my experience with it. I was not thinking Liu He Ba Fa at the moment even though I had originally started this post to find out about Liu He Ba Fa, that was my bad, sorry :asian:

And I still do not see Xingyiquan Liu He as a spiritual practice. I have said this many times before Eastern and Western thought is very different on such things. Westerners tend to compartmentalize and Eastern tend to look at things as all one part of a whole it all tends to be intrinsic. And I still believe you would be hard pressed to find a traditional Chinese Martial Arts Sifu from China that would talk about the spirituality of Liu He.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 9, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I was trying so VERY hard to be diplomatic too
> 
> I do not see the 6 harmonies as spiritual that is all.



Sorry. Didn't mean to seem undiplomatic. 

My response would be that things like xin and qi aren't going to be felt outside of contexts that would normally  be considered spiritual by us Westerners. That's because we have no other context for it. We often forget that there's no separation between matter and mind in Chinese thought -- something that  is taken for granted in Western culture.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> Sorry. Didn't mean to seem undiplomatic.
> 
> My response would be that things like xin and qi aren't going to be felt outside of contexts that would normally be considered spiritual by us Westerners. That's because we have no other context for it. We often forget that there's no separation between matter and mind in Chinese thought -- something that is taken for granted in Western culture.


 
Agreed


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## Rabu (Apr 11, 2008)

Look for similiarities,
but understand the differences.
- Rob

People in the same style, practiced under different teachers may have very different experiences with their respective art.

Even so far as to have different understandings of what would otherwise be 'cornerstone' practices.

Given that there appears to be differences of opinion about apparently baseline curriculum, then understanding the differences while allowing for similiarities would be wisest.

It seems that, even though uncomfortable as some of the conversation has been, this is occurring.

Liu He is a common understanding among CMA practitioners.  How it is expressed and how it is taught may differ greatly. 

I would agree that attempting to use online resources can muddy the waters more than not.

Either way, I liked the mans movement, regardless of whether its truly 'liu he ba fa' or not.

I have had the chance to work with and see Wei lun Choi previously and see similiarities.   Sadly, I have not studied the art enough nor practiced similiar arts enough to note and understand the differences you try to point out.

Best of luck in all things,

Rob


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## DrakeS (Apr 13, 2008)

There are no similarities between what Weilun Huang performs, and what Wai Lun Choi taught until he retired. Aside from them being Chinese.  Not in mechanics, nor intent. One is a fighter. One a performer. <<shrug>>

D.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 13, 2008)

DrakeS said:


> There are no similarities between what Weilun Huang performs, and what Wai Lun Choi taught until he retired. Aside from them being Chinese.  Not in mechanics, nor intent. One is a fighter. One a performer. <<shrug>>
> 
> D.



Well I don't think I would go that far. Huang has a pretty good rep for being able to use his Yang style:





I don't care so much for his LHBF but that doesn't mean everything he knows is worthless or anything.


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## DrakeS (Apr 14, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> Well I don't think I would go that far. Huang has a pretty good rep for being able to use his Yang style:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Quite frankly a push hands demonstration is not fighting on any level, and does not prove your point. However, I will agree that the ability to fight does not exclude Mr. Huang's ability to transmit information. I've been told that he's a fine teacher.

     D.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 14, 2008)

DrakeS said:


> Quite frankly a push hands demonstration is not fighting on any level, and does not prove your point. However, I will agree that the ability to fight does not exclude Mr. Huang's ability to transmit information. I've been told that he's a fine teacher.
> 
> D.



And fighting wouldn't necessarily show that he has any internal skill. So shall we dance? We can go round and round on this issue forever. I'm making NO comment about Choi, I have lots of respect for him. But actually you can tell a lot by how someone does push hands. And in the IMA community PH is THE acceptable way to test people's skill. 

So I'll disagree with you that the clip shows nothing of Huang's fighting ability.


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## DrakeS (Apr 15, 2008)

Formosa Neijia said:


> And fighting wouldn't necessarily show that he has any internal skill. So shall we dance? We can go round and round on this issue forever. I'm making NO comment about Choi, I have lots of respect for him. But actually you can tell a lot by how someone does push hands. And in the IMA community PH is THE acceptable way to test people's skill.
> 
> So I'll disagree with you that the clip shows nothing of Huang's fighting ability.



Fair enough. We agree to disagree.  Part of life, no?

       D.


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