# A question for you Zen Buddhists out there.



## JBrainard (Jan 22, 2007)

This is not directly related to the martial arts but I can't think of a group of people who's opinion I respect more than all of yours, so here goes:
I believe that the Buddhist path is the correct one, but I have a quandary. In the fifth of The Five Mindfulness Trainings, there is the statement (and there are variations, of course): "I am determined not to use alcohol or any other intoxicant or to ingest foods or other items that contain toxins, such as certain TV programs, magazines, books, films and conversations." Ok, now the alcohol and food part makes sense to me. The problem is that I enjoy listening to Black Metal (which contains some pretty negative lyrical content), watching horror movies, and watching "kung fu" movies" (which can be very violent). To follow the Buddhist path, should/would I have to give up these things? Or is that austerity? Or would that be setting myself up to desire what I cannot have? What do you Zen Buddhists (or anyone else out there who is into philosophy) out there think?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 22, 2007)

I am not a Zen Buddhist but my Mother-in-law is (Chan Buddhist actually - what Zen comes from)) and she obviously does not listen to any metal at all, she is in her 70s and lives in China but I will say she is the happiest and most relaxed person, even tempered I have ever known. 

But she will watch TV in China and from time to time that means a bit of martial arts is going to happen and she does not seem to mind, but these things on TV in China tend to be much less bloody than what you would see in the USA. 

Although I doubt she would watch a horror movie, overly violent movie or listen to any of the music you are talking about.

She however will not eat meat, does qigong and prays for a few hours a day.

Also I met a Xingyi/Bagua master in China that was a devout Buddhist so martial arts must be ok. 

Sorry I could not help more; hopefully a practicing Buddhist will come along soon.

Are there any Buddhist temples in your area that may have a person or two there you can talk to?


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## Cruentus (Jan 22, 2007)

The key to "mindfulness training" is to be mindful of these things, not necessarily to just "give them up." The key to the 5th mindfulness training is to be aware of "unmindful" consumption, and to eliminate unmidful consumption.

To just "give something up" when you are still desiring or attached to that object can be counterproductive. Overcoming addiction may be a different story, but if we are talking about something that isn't causing you grave physical or mental harm, then going cold turkey on everything (TV, music, etc.) is counterproductive because you will still have that strong desire that will eat away at you, possibly causing you do replace what you gave up with other maladaptive behaviors. Furthermore, eliminating desire and attachment does not always or usually entail never experiencing that object again. Most of our desires entail objects that are not harmful. So quite the contrary, it means that when you do experience the object, you are not taking it for granted, and experiencing it to the fullest. This is what it means to be "mindful."

Furthermore, "mindfulness" does not mean that you have to give up your music, or even smoking for that matter. It means that when you experience your music, or your smoking, you are doing so in a mindful way. When you experience smoking (I am using smoking as an example because it is seen as a 'negative' behavior) are you doing so out of habit, or an addiction? If so, then you are doing so out of attachment which would be the wrong reasoning. Are you doing it to "calm you nerves"? Might be the wrong reason also. See, you are mindful of the act of smoking. You are asking yourself if what you are doing is benificial to you and the world or not. And then you are modifying your behavior accordingly. If you are smoking a huka, Cigar or pipe, and not inhaling and damaging health, and not doing so frequently out of addiction or desire, and are instead bonding with others while experiencing the flavor and feeling of the smoke to the fullest, then smoking can be done in a "mindful" way.

Mindfulness does not necessarily mean giving stuff up or not experiencing things again. A monk who is a part of a particular order will follow the rules of that order and might only eat certain things or listen to certain music; but the individual doesn't need to follow rules. To follow a buddhist path, you don't "have" to do anything. Ultimatily it is your path. You choose your own destiny, living hell or heaven, and improvement or degression. Throug Buddhism or other similar disciplines, the individual just improves by being more of a "self." Mindfulness training is simply one way to help you to do this.

That is my take on it, anyway.


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## JBrainard (Jan 22, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Are there any Buddhist temples in your area that may have a person or two there you can talk to?


 
Thank you for your inuput.
Actually, there is a Shaolin Chan Buddhist group out here in the Northwest. I don't know why I didn't think to ask them in the first place!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 22, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> The key to "mindfulness training" is to be mindful of these things, not necessarily to just "give them up." The key to the 5th mindfulness training is to be aware of "unmindful" consumption, and to eliminate unmidful consumption.
> 
> To just "give something up" when you are still desiring or attached to that object can be counterproductive. Overcoming addiction may be a different story, but if we are talking about something that isn't causing you grave physical or mental harm, then going cold turkey on everything (TV, music, etc.) is counterproductive because you will still have that strong desire that will eat away at you, possibly causing you do replace what you gave up with other maladaptive behaviors. Furthermore, eliminating desire and attachment does not always or usually entail never experiencing that object again. Most of our desires entail objects that are not harmful. So quite the contrary, it means that when you do experience the object, you are not taking it for granted, and experiencing it to the fullest. This is what it means to be "mindful."
> 
> ...


 
Nice post.


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## tellner (Jan 22, 2007)

Just to riff off of what Cruentus said it's the attachment that is the real problem. If you feel distress at giving up the Death Metal and cigarettes it's the attachment to the music and smokes that's the real problem. There are advanced phases of certain traditions' training which includes doing forbidden things like alcohol, meat, extra-marital sex and so on. It is done without attachment or desire. Very difficult, very spiritually dangerous, not for beginners or the unsupervised.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 22, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> This is not directly related to the martial arts but I can't think of a group of people who's opinion I respect more than all of yours, so here goes:
> I believe that the Buddhist path is the correct one, but I have a quandary. In the fifth of The Five Mindfulness Trainings, there is the statement (and there are variations, of course): "I am determined not to use alcohol or any other intoxicant or to ingest foods or other items that contain toxins, such as certain TV programs, magazines, books, films and conversations." Ok, now the alcohol and food part makes sense to me. The problem is that I enjoy listening to Black Metal (which contains some pretty negative lyrical content), watching horror movies, and watching "kung fu" movies" (which can be very violent). To follow the Buddhist path, should/would I have to give up these things? Or is that austerity? Or would that be setting myself up to desire what I cannot have? What do you Zen Buddhists (or anyone else out there who is into philosophy) out there think?


 
Replace the ideas of right and wrong practices with more-poductive / less productive practices. Mindful of the moment, allow your own best truth to unfold into the space you occupy. The rest ae details, only.


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## tellner (Jan 22, 2007)

JBrainard, there are several excellent groups in Portland, the Zen Center, Dharma Rain, Portland Buddhist Priory and several others. The Portland Buddhist Hub - http://www.portlandbuddhisthub.org - has links to these and quite a few more.


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## JBrainard (Jan 22, 2007)

This is all great food for thought and I want to thank you, all of you.
And thank you, tellner, for the links to groups in the Orygun  area.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got a lot of thinking to do


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 22, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> The key to "mindfulness training" is to be mindful of these things, not necessarily to just "give them up." The key to the 5th mindfulness training is to be aware of "unmindful" consumption, and to eliminate unmidful consumption.
> 
> To just "give something up" when you are still desiring or attached to that object can be counterproductive. Overcoming addiction may be a different story, but if we are talking about something that isn't causing you grave physical or mental harm, then going cold turkey on everything (TV, music, etc.) is counterproductive because you will still have that strong desire that will eat away at you, possibly causing you do replace what you gave up with other maladaptive behaviors. Furthermore, eliminating desire and attachment does not always or usually entail never experiencing that object again. Most of our desires entail objects that are not harmful. So quite the contrary, it means that when you do experience the object, you are not taking it for granted, and experiencing it to the fullest. This is what it means to be "mindful."
> 
> ...



What he said. I agree 100%.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 22, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> The key to "mindfulness training" is to be mindful of these things, not necessarily to just "give them up." The key to the 5th mindfulness training is to be aware of "unmindful" consumption, and to eliminate unmidful consumption.
> 
> To just "give something up" when you are still desiring or attached to that object can be counterproductive. Overcoming addiction may be a different story, but if we are talking about something that isn't causing you grave physical or mental harm, then going cold turkey on everything (TV, music, etc.) is counterproductive because you will still have that strong desire that will eat away at you, possibly causing you do replace what you gave up with other maladaptive behaviors. Furthermore, eliminating desire and attachment does not always or usually entail never experiencing that object again. Most of our desires entail objects that are not harmful. So quite the contrary, it means that when you do experience the object, you are not taking it for granted, and experiencing it to the fullest. This is what it means to be "mindful."
> 
> ...


 
You see someone that knows more did come along

And as stated by others... what he said


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