# I hate spoiled kids with spoiled parents.



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 9, 2008)

So a friend and I were sat down in a restaurant and there's a table behind us crawling with parents and kids.

Now, it's no secret to anyone who knows me that I am *not* the world's biggest fan of children, but whatever. I didn't care and could ignore the noise as long as nobody bothered me.

So of course i feel the poking in my back of some goddamn little rugrat not two minutes after I sit down.

I ignore it the once.

I turn and give him a dirty look the second.

Apparently looking back on it the mother must not have known this because it happens a third.

I don't yell, I don't swear, I may have had an annoyed tint to my voice because that's only to be expected at this point, and all's I do is turn around and say "Stop poking me".

My friend and I overhear her talking to the kid and she's saying "Oh, how ruuude...he obviously doesn't have a family..."and whatever.

Then, she gets out of her chair, leans over to me and goes "The next time you talk like *that* to my child, we're gonna have issues".

So I think about it, and decide, we're about to get our dinner, she's obviously about to leave, and it rather seems to me at this point that she has enough "issues" as it is, so I bite down on the dressing-down I *wanted* to give her, do a cost-to-benefit ratio in my head, and decide to just let her think she's won, or saved her face, or done her mother-protecting-her-cubs thing, or whatever. 

So she finishes up by putting his coat on himand she's all babying him "yeah, meeean, he's meeean"( If *I* am what she is gonna teach this kid is "mean" I shudder to think what will happen when they meet a REAL "mean" person)

I'm not by nature a confrontational person.

I didn't go there wanting to have a fight, or do anything at all but have my dinner.

Most certainly I didn't go out to have someone's  little **** crawl all over me.

I found it curious, you see, that all of a sudden the kid's bad behavior became *my* fault. 

Now if I thought this message would reach any bad parents, I might say it somewhere else than on my blog or a forum.

But it won't. Because the people I'm referring to, think I'm referring to somebody else.

So for my own therapeutic purposes--Hey all you spoiled parents--if you have not yet properly taught your kids how to behave in public--*STOP ****ING BRINGING THEM OUT IN PUBLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
*relieved sigh of annoyance being let go*

You know what the two saddest things about this are?

One, that she probably learned nothing from this.

Two, that while I was pissed for a few minutes and by the time I was 
home i'd forgotten about most of it, she's still probably in her car or at home, and she's probably on the phone to her mom or girlfriends or whoever, all fuming that someone dared "Talk like *that* to her child". The horror, the horror.

Well, I wish 'em the best--they're gonna need it.

Ladies and Gentlemen--The Future of America.


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## terryl965 (Mar 9, 2008)

Manners have become  a sidenote to most. I have three young men in my house and they would not even think about being like that and if they did accidentally hit you they would have turn around and said I'm sorry nut then again I am a parent with manners.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 9, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Manners have become a sidenote to most. I have three young men in my house and they would not even think about being like that and if they did accidentally hit you they would have turn around and said I'm sorry nut then again I am a parent with manners.


 
I know, and the mother *saw* it the third time.

For what it's worth, from having met your boys I must say they are the best behaved kids I have seen in a very long time. Good Job to both you and Yolanda.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 9, 2008)

Andy, as ever with my American friends, the hour is too late for me to be able to write much on this but I just wanted to affirm, as you already know, that your actions were restrained.

I would've been more vocal in such a circumstance because I tend to hold back irritation behind a dam ... which sadly then bursts much worse than if I'd said/done something in the first place.

The only thing I would've perhaps done differently was address the parents rather than the child.  You never know, a loudly vocalised criticism of behaviour might have embarassed them into doing something about it.  Unlikely I know but people get struck by lightning every day .


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 9, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Andy, as ever with my American friends, the hour is too late for me to be able to write much on this but I just wanted to affirm, as you already know, that your actions were restrained.
> 
> I would've been more vocal in such a circumstance because I tend to hold back irritation behind a dam ... which sadly then bursts much worse than if I'd said/done something in the first place.



I can afford to carry, or I can afford a temper, I cannot afford both.



> The only thing I would've perhaps done differently was address the parents rather than the child. .


 

You would think being a soldier I would've thought to talk to the kid's "Chain of command" first.....ah well. Future reference.


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## terryl965 (Mar 9, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I know, and the mother *saw* it the third time.
> 
> For what it's worth, from having met your boys I must say they are the best behaved kids I have seen in a very long time. Good Job to both you and Yolanda.


 
Thank you Andy appreciate that amd all I can say is we try our best.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 9, 2008)

First of all, I would say you handled the resulting situation quite well and your observations about her reaction is spot on.  

However, on the flip side, I would also say her observations about you based on how you reacted was spot on.  

I have always found from my observations, that adults who have children often times react differently to the situation you described than those that do not have children and are not interested in children.

That being said, she did over-react and babied the child and certainly gave the child a misrepresentation of a "mean" person.  I am sure your response was not nearly as warm and understanding as an adult that has children would have been.  She picked up on it and blew it out of proportion.  

I am not saying that the adult with child experience would have wanted no less than you, just it would be likely that their response would have been a little warmer, and would have gotten the point across just as well.

Yes, the child's parent needs to teach them how to act in public, but this cannot be addressed without going into public.  So your wish that it is taken care of before going into public, just isn't going to happen.  However, the mother should have been OBSERVANT and saw what the child did by the second time and corrected the child.  

Anyway, I can see your point and I agree with you in essence but at the same time, I can see where she probably picked up on a few things as well that happened to increase the tension of the situation.


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## Kacey (Mar 9, 2008)

It's not just the lack of manners that annoys me - it's the sense of entitlement.  I have to say that most of the kids I know are well-behaved - between 90% and 95% of them aren't a problem more than occasionally, and then it's usually in times of excitement, when the rules they were taught slip.  That doesn't bother me.  It is the ones like the one you describe, who are not only not taught manners, but are taught that those who object to their lack of manners are _wrong_ - those are the ones that are the problem.

Having met Terry's kids, I would agree - they are very well-mannered, as are the children of most martial artists I know; Master Arnold's children (a 9 year-old boy and a 5 year-old girl) were at the tournament yesterday, and were wonderful to have around, as were the competitors (ages 6-adult) - even the uninvolved siblings and children of competitors were, as a general rule, not a problem until very late in the day as things were winding up and getting uninteresting, and even then, they stayed out of the way of the events still continuing, and helped with the cleanup as a way of amusing themselves.

Some of my school students, however, have been taught that _anything_ they do wrong is an error in interpretation on the part of the person who disliked their actions (as with the sorry excuse of a mother in Andy's story) - and they *are* a significant problem.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 9, 2008)

You know, Bigshadow, that's probably exactly it.

I ran through it a few times in my head and wondered if  I had turned around, said, "Excuse me, Ma'am, is this your son? *answers* "Ok, then I would appreciate it if you would please see that he stops poking me. Thank you".

Well, I'll file that under experience from a mistake, and keep it for future reference.

Still, disciplinarian that I am, I may have been working on the theory that giving a kid a reaction that makes them NOT want to repeat an action will make them not repeat it--but then, I need to remember how *I* would react were a stranger to act that way in my presence to my kids*shrug*


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 9, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> So a friend and I were sat down in a restaurant and there's a table behind us crawling with parents and kids.
> 
> Now, it's no secret to anyone who knows me that I am *not* the world's biggest fan of children, but whatever. I didn't care and could ignore the noise as long as nobody bothered me.
> 
> ...




Andy,


After her comment, I would have started speaking to the air, About how it was assault by her child upon me and that the egg shell law means that any impact to the head could be a life threatening, and that is she truly wants to see rude she will in about a second if she does not shut the **** up and as I will stand up and touch her in the head and let her know how annoying it is to have unwanted touching. 

You would think that a woman would understand that touch  and in particular an unwanted touch is something that is not a good thing. 

I have had to ask the air before what is the difference between someone  touching me after I told them to stop and me touching them? Nothing, as it would be mutual assault. It would all depend upon how good a lawyer they had and how long they were in the hospital. Oh BTW I mention I have real good insurance that covers me well. 

Most of the time they leave or get real quiet. I usually am so loud that the management wants to talk to me and I continue the conversation loud enough so everyone in the place is a witness. If they want to draw attention I will give them attention. 

But, for me most of the time, kids either love me and smile and move on or they are afraid of me, and begin to cry. Either case, most people do not want me around their kids because they see this large man with no wedding ring and waving at a child with a smile on my face. This for some reason when I am actually trying to be nice and understanding, seems to bother the parents as well. They usually leave or get real quiet. Some smile and make their kids wave back or what have you. 

In the end you did what you thought was right. That is good. A conflict avoided is usually the best policy. Sometimes I do the wrong thing, and try to educate people, that calling others rude and or trying to make a scene, is not going to bother me. And that I can be a bigger jerk than they can be.


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2008)

Unlike Andy I will open my mouth in public, I will restrain myself just so long...Was at a resturnat with my Mom and this little monster was weaving between the table at top speed..He kept bumping my Moms chair, finall I had enough and I stood up and pointed at the brat and lowered my voice  to a growl and said "Please stop bumping my Mothers chair"...The kid ran straight into his Mothers arm and she attempted to stare me down, lotsa luck there...They paid their bill and left immediately, the manager thanked me...


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## Ninjamom (Mar 9, 2008)

My latest mother-defending-the-cubs blow-up (about two months ago) was over even less of an issue, but regarding the same general principle.  

Someone complained directly to my son about his behavior in a public place.  The person who was correcting my son saw me standing right there at the time, meaning either 1) I didn't see that my son doing something wrong, or 2) I saw it but had no problem with his actions.  

I took the person aside to address how he handled the issue, and that with me right there, he should have addressed me and let me deal with my son.  Personally, if I *had not* been present, and some other adult had seen my son misbehaving, I would have been grateful for someone standing up to tell him (calmly) to cut out whatever, and bring me word afterwards.  However, in this case, the person went straight to addressing why my 10-yr-old autistic son (who plays with his hair so much he has worn a bald spot into his scalp) should not be wearing a cap inside.  Grrr!

Correcting other people's children is an emotional landmine looking for a place to blow up.  There is almost no *right* way to do it, that will guarantee no one will ever take offense.  Too many people see their children's behavior as a direct reflection on themselves, so you are actually criticising them, rather than being viewed as helping the child.  In general, I would suggest getting the parents involved whenever possible.  Then, if you see the same response, at least you will know where the kid got the behavior issues.


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## arnisador (Mar 9, 2008)

You made the right decision. You couldn't have won the argument. Speaking with the management is the only way to have a chance at winning...and they foten will try not to get involved too.

I too have been the subject of the "He's so mean" comments.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 9, 2008)

I could write a book.
- The mother at the post office whose rugbrat was running around using everything and everyone as a crash pad. Her reaction "Tommy stop that". As effective as a UN peace keeper.
- The couple who wandered off at Target and let the game unit be the baby sitter of their kids. Kids were walking back into the store as the parents checked out. Very safe parenting eh.
- The brat who kept kicking my seat on the bus, whose mother kept "talking" to him and threatening a "time out". I got quite the glare for turning and saying "As long as he's going to keep doing that and ignoring your agressive parenting, can you at least get him to alter the pace? He's cheaper than my massuse.".

I won't even go into all the crap I saw and dealt with while working in a photo studio. $10k camera, aint little **** for brains cute swinging that prop around. Not.


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> However, in this case, the person went straight to addressing why my 10-yr-old autistic son (who plays with his hair so much he has worn a bald spot into his scalp) should not be wearing a cap inside. Grrr!


 
Why would someone care WHAT a chid is wearing in public...



			
				Ninjamom said:
			
		

> Correcting other people's children is an emotional landmine looking for a place to blow up.


 
Just call me the mine sweeper....


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 9, 2008)

In my humble opinion, the parent, if present, should be the one that is approached. Afterall, it is a child, at a young age, it is the parents that are at fault for neglecting to show thier child right from wrong. The child is not born with the knowledge of how to act in public. And, as mentioned, there may be issues unknown to a passing adult, such as the autism.


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2008)

On the other hand ...

When my oldest was a child, the outside-the-home experience for him was an excruciating one - bombarded with sights and sounds and vibrations and all sorts of things that overloaded his sensory circuit board.  I dragged him screaming through the store consoling him, reassuring him, trying to refocus his attention to map the synapses he was missing.  I refused to leave him at home with sitter or dad - that got him nowhere.

You wouldn't believe the comments I received ... or, perhaps you would.  

For me, teaching my autistic child that he can adapt to his surroundings and mapping those synapses was FAR more important than the glares, verbal admonishments, unwanted advice.

I got some business cards from the Autism Society of America which on one side gave an 800 number and website for the local chapter of the ASA and on the other side an explanation that I was teaching my child to behave in public, blah blah blah.  Most of the time I received apologies, others darn near physical attacks - normal kids just shouldn't have to look upon such tragedy in their young years.  Poor widdle thangs.

My youngest borders on precociousness and dared to race Hot Wheels across the waiting room floor at the doctor's office.  One run was enough for me and, as I rose to intercept my son and cars meeting, to have a woman suggest I ask for Ritalin while we were there ... before I even had the chance to speak to my son about the behavior.  This was, I dare say, uncalled for.  I *almost* suggested she ask for some Prozac to manage her intolerance for normalcy.  My child is, after all, a child.

I've also been with multiple children and multiple adults and sometimes those situations aren't well-coordinated and children unruly - it can be quite the task to divide one's attention between six kids, six adults, a menu, the waitress and all the water glasses, cutlery and table-top signs and condiments and still maintain order and good behavior.

I won't, however, pretend there aren't parents who just don't care ... and unless someone is completely out of line with my children I won't show an unappreciative face towards the stranger.  It is how we teach our children to behave - they push boundaries, we reinforce them. They poke a stranger in the back, we admonish them and make the child apologize to the stranger.  

Sorry your dinner was ruined, Andy.  Sorry some parents are afraid to be parents.

:asian:


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## jks9199 (Mar 9, 2008)

Drac said:


> Unlike Andy I will open my mouth in public, I will restrain myself just so long...Was at a resturnat with my Mom and this little monster was weaving between the table at top speed..He kept bumping my Moms chair, finall I had enough and I stood up and pointed at the brat and lowered my voice  to a growl and said "Please stop bumping my Mothers chair"...The kid ran straight into his Mothers arm and she attempted to stare me down, lotsa luck there...They paid their bill and left immediately, the manager thanked me...


Y'know... it bothers me that the management didn't take action earlier.

If a kid is causing a disruption, and the parents lack the common courtesy to either make the kid behave or take them outside -- then it's time for the management to explain the courtesy to them.  I guaran-damn-tee that if the kid in question had been a 16 year old or college kid, the management wouldn't have hesitated to tell them to leave.  Why should a 5 or 10 year old be different?

I've got a 2 year old niece -- and her parents have neglected to teach her to sit still during a meal.  Or at least they haven't made it stick...  Now, I think she's the neatest & cutest thing since sliced bread (especially since I've got none of my own yet), but I don't tolerate that.  A couple of times now I've been at dinner with them, and she's been climbing around and playing...  Funny, I tell her to stop, and she does.  Must be something different in how I say than how Daddy says it.:shrug:  But at least they do keep her on the inside, between them.

It's the same thing with kids at church or movies... First, it's the parents's job  to know whether or not their kid can behave through the movie or service (or whatever).  Now -- I'm reasonable; I go to a kiddie movie, I expect kids.  But going to a movie or out to dinner after 10 PM?  Let's be real.  But if you're gonna bring the kids, and they start acting up -- it's time to go.  Your kids don't trump my right to enjoy the movie or dinner or whatever, no matter how cute they are.


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## Kacey (Mar 9, 2008)

I was in a grocery store one day; I came around a corner and was hit by a soft ball (still in the wrapper - apparently still the store's property) thrown by a girl who appeared to be about 6, to a boy who looked about 3.  There were no adults in sight anywhere in the aisle.  The boy threw the ball back in the general direction of his sister, and the ball hit me again.  I told them to stop throwing the ball around before someone was hurt, and I asked her where her parents were; she took her little brother's hand and left.  I paid for my groceries and left the store.  

As I was loading my car, another car pulled up with these 2 children and their irate father (who, by his own statement, had been in the diagonally opposite corner of the store) who started yelling at me that no one would discipline his children but him, and how dare I tell his children to stop doing_ anything_ - especially something so harmless as throwing a soft ball around.  He went on like that for several minutes.  When he wound down, I pointed out how easy it would have been to walk off with one - or both - of his unsupervised children, and told him I'd have been within my rights to contact the store management and the police about unattended minors, and have him arrested for child neglect and endangerment - and that, in fact, as a teacher, I was a mandated reporter and should really have done so sooner.  I then read his license plate number off to him and offered to call the police and report him (my trunk was up, so he couldn't see mine)... he turned purple, said something I (thankfully) couldn't understand, and drove off... Several people in the parking lot started clapping, and one thanked me; seemed she'd been hit by the ball too, and, as an elderly lady with poor balance, she'd had a lot more trouble than I had.

The moral?  Some people are *******s, and they raise their kids to be just like them... so be sure there are witnesses around (who are on your side) if you _do_ do anything!


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Y'know... it bothers me that the management didn't take action earlier.


 
Cause most managers are coporate clones..If its not in the 'regs' they will not addresss it...



jks9199 said:


> If a kid is causing a disruption, and the parents lack the common courtesy to either make the kid behave or take them outside -- then it's time for the management to explain the courtesy to them. I guaran-damn-tee that if the kid in question had been a 16 year old or college kid, the management wouldn't have hesitated to tell them to leave. Why should a 5 or 10 year old be different?


 
You sre correct sir



jks9199 said:


> I've got a 2 year old niece -- and her parents have neglected to teach her to sit still during a meal. Or at least they haven't made it stick... Now, I think she's the neatest & cutest thing since sliced bread (especially since I've got none of my own yet), but I don't tolerate that. A couple of times now I've been at dinner with them, and she's been climbing around and playing... Funny, I tell her to stop, and she does. Must be something different in how I say than how Daddy says it.:shrug: But at least they do keep her on the inside, between them.


 
Is that a surprize to ya???



jks9199 said:


> It's the same thing with kids at church or movies... First, it's the parents's job to know whether or not their kid can behave through the movie or service (or whatever). Now -- I'm reasonable; I go to a kiddie movie, I expect kids. But going to a movie or out to dinner after 10 PM? Let's be real. But if you're gonna bring the kids, and they start acting up -- it's time to go. Your kids don't trump my right to enjoy the movie or dinner or whatever, no matter how cute they are.


 
Well said...


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## jks9199 (Mar 9, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> My latest mother-defending-the-cubs blow-up (about two months ago) was over even less of an issue, but regarding the same general principle.
> 
> Someone complained directly to my son about his behavior in a public place.  The person who was correcting my son saw me standing right there at the time, meaning either 1) I didn't see that my son doing something wrong, or 2) I saw it but had no problem with his actions.
> 
> ...


Sorry -- I disagree.

Maybe it's because I've dealt with too many kids whose parents have never bothered to correct them or who apparently don't realize that the actions of their little monster aren't as cute to me as they are to them, and even are sometimes downright dangerous.

But I figure if the parent hasn't corrected the kid's behavior after a couple of minutes (during which I may well have been trying to get the parent's attention)... I'll do it.  With the necessary tone and mannerism.  Sometimes that means simply saying "Hey, stop."  Other times... well, there's something we call "command presence."  It's putting that snap into the tone of voice that says on a subliminal level "if you don't comply, I'll make you comply."  Yeah, I've made a few kids cry.

But, see, I don't care if YOU as the parent don't have a problem with the behavior.  If it's disturbing me (recall, I try to be reasonable; the standard is different at a matinee showing of a Disney cartoon compared to a 10 PM showing of a rated R action flick or at Mickey Ds compared to a $25 an entree restaurant), it's a problem.  If you don't take action to bring the kid in line, I will.  Now, I'm not suggesting I have the right to do more than tell your kid to stop it under most circumstances -- but I most certainly do have the right to address the kid directly.


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## newGuy12 (Mar 9, 2008)

Drac said:


> she attempted to stare me down, lotsa luck there...



Haha!  I have no children.  People say I am a "hedonist".  I care only about myself -- I do not want the responsibility of having children, and so I don't.  If I were to die, no one would be put out, I am like the Samurai in that way, I am dead meat waiting to die, no wife or children to worry about. 

Now, once, I was trying to learn American Kenpo Karate from a very high ranking Teacher.  One time there were many children in the community center where he was giving me and other students instruction about Ed Parker's System.  He told me, "You go over there and lead those children through some yoga poses."  I did as I was told to do.

I told the children, "You all, you come here and do as I do, we will do these yogic exercises now."  Some of the children did not seem to do them with enthusiasm.  I looked at them, and said, "No, you PUT your hand UP, like this -- do as I do, UP high!"  Most were with me then.  Note that these poses were not dangerous.  They were not stressful. 

Still one child, he did not do this.  I then said, "NO, up, up, up, like THIS!!!"  Then, everyone of them, together, we did these.  We only did maybe, oh five poses together.  

After that, the Teacher told me, "You did that very well, those children have never been so attentive to instruction ever." Haha!  He would not lie to me.  I am not a teacher by any means, and children are leary of me for some reason.  But this really happened. 

Haha -- I avoid places with children because you never know what they will do, haha!  They may pick some thing up and throw it at you, anything.  If they are younger than six years old, they have no sense of what to do in public, no sense at all.

Its best to not cause a ruckus.  Always.


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> Haha! I have no children. People say I am a "hedonist". I care only about myself -- I do not want the responsibility of having children, and so I don't. If I were to die, no one would be put out, I am like the Samurai in that way, I am dead meat waiting to die, no wife or children to worry about.
> 
> Now, once, I was trying to learn American Kenpo Karate from a very high ranking Teacher. One time there were many children in the community center where he was giving me and other students instruction about Ed Parker's System. He told me, "You go over there and lead those children through some yoga poses." I did as I was told to do.
> 
> ...


 
I told one place I use to dine at alot that their hostess needed to ask "Children or No Children along with the "Smoking or Non Smoking"...


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## Ninjamom (Mar 9, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Sorry -- I disagree.
> 
> Maybe it's because I've dealt with too many kids whose parents have never bothered to correct them or who apparently don't realize that
> 
> ...


Of course you are free to disagree, but I fail to see how my son wearing a hat in public was jeopardizing the Free World.   As with almost every issue, you must evaluate the situation as it unfolds (something I think that you, as a LEO, are well aware of).  Your response will fit the specific circumstances and needs of the situation.

I broke your quote into two parts, because I think this shows an important distinction, and helps define what those 'needs of the situation' might be.  My thoughts are these: If my kid is doing something placing himself or another in imminent danger, then go, correct away.  If my kid is doing something that you just plain don't like, then be careful that you do not become part of the problem - just one more person more interested in personal peace and comfort than whatever the cost to anyone else.

So, I would suggest again, if you are genuinely acting for the safety of another, then correct at will.  However, if you feel a desire to address an issue because it bothers or discomforts you, get the parents involved.


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## BrandiJo (Mar 9, 2008)

Throwing things, touching another person un-wantedly, screaming and running around in a restaurant, being left to alone and causing trouble i would address the child before the parent because the parent obviously isn't doing anything. However if it is something like the child tapping the wall annoyingly wearing a hat, or something random like that, that i may have been taught is rude i would recommend going to the parents first, and seeing if as adults you could fix the situation or better understand what is going on.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 10, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> But if you're gonna bring the kids, and they start acting up -- it's time to go.



As a parent, I disagree with that statement.  That just tells the kid they can get their way.  That is a passive way to secede to them.  IMO, the kid(s)' behavior should be dealt with (even if it means administering some attention getting discipline in private) and everyone continue finishing dinner in peace.  The only one who won't be happy will be the kid(s), however, they only brought it on themselves.  Another lesson for kids in "cause" and "effect".


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## KempoGuy06 (Mar 10, 2008)

i can relate. I use to work at Logan's Roadhouse, you know one of the restaurants where you can throw the peanut shells on the ground. Well it's about 10:30 on a Friday night and Im sweeping up the shells and everything from the lobby. I have everything in a pile to be swept up and put into a trash can. I turn around to get the dust pan and I see this kid go flying past me right into my pile. Scatters it everywhere, I was a little mad but nothing to get heated over. I swept it up again and bent down to put it in the dust pan when I see the same kid grab a hand full of peanuts and throw them on the floor. I asked him not to do that because I was cleaning. Well he goes and tell his parents. The mother walks up to me and starts poking me in the chest telling me Im a terrible person for yelling at a child (i dont remember yelling) and she asks to speak to my manager. 

To make it short...I was right, she was wrong and my manager asked them to leave the place.

When I was kid, if I would have done that my parents would have beat my ***. 

B


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## crushing (Mar 10, 2008)

The little terrorist poked you?  My God, the humanity!!!!  I'm glad your MA training kept you from sustaining significant injury in the altercation with that menace!!!!!  



  Just messin'. . .


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## Sukerkin (Mar 10, 2008)

And once more we return to the problem of lack of discipline being administered due to too much 'Bleeding Heart' legislation.

Like *Kempo*, if I misbehaved in public then my parents had a 'layered response' program.  First my mother would admonish me and tell me to stop whatever it was that was wrong.  Failing that, my father would tell me to stop.  That would usually work for the plain and simple fact that it was my father was the one to execute 'administrative punishment'.  If I didn't listen then ... ah well, another good hiding for being too stubborn and rebellious for my own good .

If I was growing up nowadays my father would probably end up in court and I would be free to become a ill-discplined lout at my own convenience.


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## BrandiJo (Mar 10, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Like *Kempo*, if I misbehaved in public then my parents had a 'layered response' program.  First my mother would admonish me and tell me to stop whatever it was that was wrong.  Failing that, my father would tell me to stop.  That would usually work for the plain and simple fact that it was my father was the one to execute 'administrative punishment'.  If I didn't listen then ... ah well, another good hiding for being too stubborn and rebellious for my own good .


  Same here, my bro and i got one warning from my mother, a second from my father then, we had to deal with the effects of our behavior.
 My parents however did not take my bro or I out to anything more then Mc Donalds till we where 10 or so though. They felt that other people where paying for a diner and if they wanted to be subjected to children they would not have hired a sitter for their own. 

I also one time being in a Target store and being a holy terror and the threat of dealing with dad when we got home did not phase my brother or I(we where 6 nad 7 or 7 and 8 at the time ). So rather then staying at the store and letting my brother and i cause trouble and annoy the staff and shoppers we where taken to the car and right to my dad (who was at work at the time) for some ahhh one on one time, and i honestly think that is the only time my bro and i where little ***** in public. Of course we could not sit down for the rest of the day but it worked.


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## shesulsa (Mar 10, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> But, see, I don't care if YOU as the parent don't have a problem with the behavior.  If it's disturbing me (recall, I try to be reasonable; the standard is different at a matinee showing of a Disney cartoon compared to a 10 PM showing of a rated R action flick or at Mickey Ds compared to a $25 an entree restaurant), it's a problem.  If you don't take action to bring the kid in line, I will.  Now, I'm not suggesting I have the right to do more than tell your kid to stop it under most circumstances -- but I most certainly do have the right to address the kid directly.


Well now, I don't take my child to see R rated movies, but I gotta tell ya ...

You just cannot know what that kid's day has been like.  While it is the responsibility of a parent to teach a child appropriate behavior, *you just cannot expect a child to behave with the manners and aplomb an adult does. They are not adults*, hence the word "child" and I would have a serious problem with anyone dealing with my children directly.

So ... liken this to an adult scenario. Let's say you lost your job, came home to find your spouse in bed with someone else and get a foreclosure notice.  You then proceed to the grocery store to buy some food and beer, I bump into you and you bite my head off - not intentionally but because you've had a *really* bad day.  Do I get to slug you?

No.

Here's what I want to say to people who feel it's their job to publicly parent my children because of their incomplete and selfish perceptions: Mind Your Own Darned Business.

Now ... like the end of relationships, there are deal-breakers. Children left unsupervised in a store throwing balls about - I have no problem dealing with them directly, but I get store managers to do so mainly because I don't want the kids saying I did something I didn't without a witness around to corroborate my true actions.  If a kid is physically assaulting someone else I *might* step in.  I was present a few months ago when a teenager stood 5 feet from a cop watching out at a football game and told him he hates cops and that cops have anger problems and they're always throwing around their authority. I had NO PROBLEMS whatsoever telling this kid that this officer had a job to do and to leave him alone, go badmouth someone else.  THAT child was old enough to have been taught to respect the law and its representatives.  He deserved a talking-to. He is 16.  Were he three, I'd speak to his parents.


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## jks9199 (Mar 10, 2008)

Bigshadow said:


> As a parent, I disagree with that statement.  That just tells the kid they can get their way.  That is a passive way to secede to them.  IMO, the kid(s)' behavior should be dealt with (even if it means administering some attention getting discipline in private) and everyone continue finishing dinner in peace.  The only one who won't be happy will be the kid(s), however, they only brought it on themselves.  Another lesson for kids in "cause" and "effect".



I'm not suggesting that the whole family leave.  Nor am I suggesting that walking out is the only discipline appropriate.  For example, I see a couple with two kids most weeks at church.  If one gets antsy or starts to misbehave, one of the parents takes them out of the church for a few minutes (or even just walks them around the perimeter row) until they can return to their seat.  If that's not enough -- I've seen them leave.  It's a scaled response. 



BrandiJo said:


> Same here, my bro and i got one warning from my mother, a second from my father then, we had to deal with the effects of our behavior.
> My parents however did not take my bro or I out to anything more then Mc Donalds till we where 10 or so though. They felt that other people where paying for a diner and if they wanted to be subjected to children they would not have hired a sitter for their own.



Nor am I saying kids should never go to movies or nice restaurants; they have to learn how to behave at some point.  But when their behavior becomes a problem, and when simply telling them to behave fails -- something else needs to be done.



shesulsa said:


> Well now, I don't take my child to see R rated movies, but I gotta tell ya ...
> 
> You just cannot know what that kid's day has been like.  While it is the responsibility of a parent to teach a child appropriate behavior, *you just cannot expect a child to behave with the manners and aplomb an adult does. They are not adults*, hence the word "child" and I would have a serious problem with anyone dealing with my children directly.
> 
> ...




Recall that I distinguished between situations.  If kids are in primarily adult situations (nicer restaurants, movies aimed at adults or at times when kids should be in bed... when did kids stop having reasonable bed times and start staying up all night?) -- then they need to have reasonable behavior for that setting.  My church (like many) has a "crying room" or "training room" where families can go to Mass with young kids, and hopefully not disturb the entire congregation if their is a problem.  If I'm sitting in that room for some reason -- I know that I'll be around kids, and expect some crying or other distractions.  Same thing, as I said, with movies.  If I go see *Horton Hears A Who* this weekend -- especially at a matinee or early showing -- I'm going to expect kids to be there and behaving like kids.  But if I go to the same movie at a 10 PM showing -- I don't expect to be surrounded by kids.  That's a "grown up time."

And I'm not suggesting that I (or any other adult) has a blanket right to tell someone else's kids how to behave.  But I do have the right to what the code books describe as "reasonable peace and tranquility" for the setting.  And I definitely don't have to tolerate being hit, poked, run over, kicked, or any of the other things some kids do.  And I can tell the kid to stop it.  I'll even reserve the right to physically intervene to stop some behavior, like the aforementioned poking, prodding, or running around.  I'm not suggesting hurting or spanking someone else's kid; I am saying that I can deflect that poke, or bring that unguided missile of a kid to their parents.


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## Lisa (Mar 10, 2008)

Hmmm...I am about to become unpopular here.

I have known children like this and parents.  Some, I am sure would consider my children annoying at times.

However, you giving the child a dirty look and saying "don't poke me" and referring to him here as a "god-damned little rugrat" makes me wonder which one of you really has the "spoiled" problem.

Can't blame a kid for being a kid, can't blame the kid for not being an adult, because he isn't one.  You, on the other hand, are.  Although I don't like the mother's response, yours leaves a bad taste in my mouth as well.  Children learn from what they see and experience.  If an adult is giving them dirty looks and speaking to them in a tone that is "unfriendly" they are going to learn to do the same to others.

I think I would have more sympathy for your situation if you had addressed the mother in a manner that you would want to be spoken to and then, if she continued down the "mean" road, I could see your anger as being justified.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 10, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> So a friend and I were sat down in a restaurant and there's a table behind us crawling with parents and kids....



I was timekeeping for the freestyle portion of a tournament this last weekend.  I see one 7-8 year old punch another one in the stomach while they are sitting on the mat waiting to be called.  I make sure the punchee is OK, and give the puncher a dressing down.  I then actually get some idiot on the sidelines trying to justify it by saying that the punchee was goofing off.

WTF?


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## Kreth (Mar 10, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> ...kids either love me and smile and move on or they are afraid of me, and begin to cry.


Rich, first of all, I don't appreciate you calling me a kid. Secondly, I had something in my eye...



:uhyeah:


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## little_miss_fracus (Mar 10, 2008)

I really don't want to be disrespectful but ... is poking you in the back at the restraunt all it takes to ruin your day?

Takes a lot more for me - like ... a flat tire on the ferry or rolling the jeep during an ice storm or having someone poke me in the back with something besides a finger. Like a knife or something.  Some areas of Seattle are pretty rough. Seriously. It's the armpit of the northwest.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 10, 2008)

It's not all bad there.  The Microsoft bitterness is balanced by the Starbucks goodness.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 10, 2008)

I can see a distinct divide growing out of the above string of posts and I suspect that at least a portion of it may well devolve from our own upbringings and the expectations that were placed upon us.

Because of *my* background, I do not buy in to the 'liberal' idea that children cannot be expected to behave because they don't know any better.  By the time any child, beyond toddler age, is ambulatory and interactive enough to be moving around under their own steam and communicating, then they should have enough rudamentary social programming not to overstep the 'bounds' too markedly.  That comes in large part from a sense of 'consequences' deriving from their actions (such as being aware that appropriate discipline will be in the offing for poking an unknown adult in a restaurant).

As I noted above, I *was* expected to adhere to adult standards of behaviour, in fact stricter boundaries in some ways as I was supposed not to come to the unwarranted attention of adults around me i.e. seen and not heard.  It's old fashioned but it's orderly and it's peaceful (soto voce "So was fascism ... well, sort of").  

Such regulation applied not only to me but to every child in town and, yes, we all expected *any* adult to take a hand in admonishing and even punishing us (I remember to this day getting a clip round the ear from an irate woman because I'd, unthinkingly, been standing there stripping leaves off her hedge :O).

Of course I'm certainly not going to try to paint a rosy picture of a town full of cherubicly behaved children {I was there for a start :blush:} but it was certainly a good deal more 'civil' than I observe these days.

I mean no direct criticism of any individual whose taken part in this discourse so far but overly tolerating a behaviour is part of the slippery slope to it being acceptable - the question becomes very broad then as it amounts to what do we want our society to unction like?


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## Bodhisattva (Mar 10, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> So a friend and I were sat down in a restaurant and there's a table behind us crawling with parents and kids.
> 
> Now, it's no secret to anyone who knows me that I am *not* the world's biggest fan of children, but whatever. I didn't care and could ignore the noise as long as nobody bothered me.
> 
> ...



I mostly hate kids and their parents in general.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 10, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I'm not suggesting that the whole family leave.  Nor am I suggesting that walking out is the only discipline appropriate.  For example, I see a couple with two kids most weeks at church.  If one gets antsy or starts to misbehave, one of the parents takes them out of the church for a few minutes (or even just walks them around the perimeter row) until they can return to their seat.  If that's not enough -- I've seen them leave.  It's a scaled response.




Oh, OK.  That works too!


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## Bigshadow (Mar 10, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> When I was kid, if I would have done that my parents would have beat my ***.
> 
> B



Same here!


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 10, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Hmmm...I am about to become unpopular here.
> 
> I have known children like this and parents. Some, I am sure would consider my children annoying at times.
> 
> ...


 
No, you're not "unpopular", you're giving your input.

The point of addressing the parent first has been brought up several times and it actually is a point i would tend to agree with, having thought it through.

But in future, what is more likely to happen is I'm just gonna get up, find a waiter and ask to be reseated, or when the waiter first seats me I'll just ask not to be seated near children and not even give that door a chance to open, that's all.


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## KempoGuy06 (Mar 10, 2008)

Bigshadow said:


> Same here!


the broom i was holding almost became a weapon..."no ma'am I dont know why your kid is covered in peanuts, maybe you should keep a better eye on him"

B


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 10, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> My latest mother-defending-the-cubs blow-up (about two months ago) was over even less of an issue, but regarding the same general principle.
> 
> Someone complained directly to my son about his behavior in a public place.  The person who was correcting my son saw me standing right there at the time, meaning either 1) I didn't see that my son doing something wrong, or 2) I saw it but had no problem with his actions.
> 
> ...




Maybe I am different, but when I run across a child that does not track or is tracking too much on one thing, I kind of recognize that things are not what they may seem. And I act accordingly usually a simple smile and or saying hi. 

As to children being a representation of the parents, it is but it is not. Children make mistakes and they learn from mistakes to become socialized. Some have other problems that might make it more difficult to socialize and or learn.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 10, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> On the other hand ...
> 
> When my oldest was a child, the outside-the-home experience for him was an excruciating one - bombarded with sights and sounds and vibrations and all sorts of things that overloaded his sensory circuit board.  I dragged him screaming through the store consoling him, reassuring him, trying to refocus his attention to map the synapses he was missing.  I refused to leave him at home with sitter or dad - that got him nowhere.
> 
> ...




If the parent(s) are talking to the child and trying to get the child to do something, I see this as the parents trying to accomplish a task. It might not be working but there is a showing of attempt. 

As to pushing boundaries children do this all the time. I still do it. I hope to grow up some day, but my comment here do not take away from your point that is very valid. 

I raced hot wheels across the doctors' office. I did it in the waiting room. I played "Trucks" with the smaller tonka toys as well. It is part of being a boy. 

I read an article about should boys and girls be taught differently, and separately. I do not have enough data on the subject but I support the differently comments as what one may say to a boy might not work with a girl and the same in reverse. They react differently to colors and sounds and situations. 

If your child did not play with Hot Wheels I would be more concerned in my opinion. But take my opinion for what it is worth. (* less than your time is worht to read it in print  *)


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 10, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Rich, first of all, I don't appreciate you calling me a kid. Secondly, I had something in my eye...
> 
> 
> 
> :uhyeah:



Jeff,

Sorry, I had my fat thumb in your eye. I guess that is what made the leakage occur.


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## Lisa (Mar 10, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> No, you're not "unpopular", you're giving your input.
> 
> The point of addressing the parent first has been brought up several times and it actually is a point i would tend to agree with, having thought it through.
> 
> * But in future, what is more likely to happen is I'm just gonna get up, find a waiter and ask to be reseated, or when the waiter first seats me I'll just ask not to be seated near children and not even give that door a chance to open, that's all.*



Bold is mine.

As much as I agree that this could possibly be the best situation, it saddens me to see you feel that this is what needs to be done.  I am a strong believer in it taking a village to raise a child.  I think every good standing citizen has something to teach a child.  If this child's parent is raising him to believe that he should be able to do whatever he wants just because he is a child, then showing him the opposite in a firm but kind manner could go a long way in forming who he will be as the "future of America."

Remember, he could be deciding your future some day


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## BrandiJo (Mar 10, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Remember, he could be deciding your future some day



Lord help us all. I have worked in day care and seen some children that i would honestly be scared to meet when they are adults. thankfully my *new* job has only 2 of these children


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## shesulsa (Mar 10, 2008)

I really think the best action would be to either speak to the mom politely, ask the waitress politely to speak to the parent and shift your seat so that the child couldn't poke you.

But seriously - how many times do we tell each other that success = failure +1?  Some children need re-exposure and training.  You know ... just like dogs. :uhyeah:


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 11, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Bold is mine.
> 
> As much as I agree that this could possibly be the best situation, it saddens me to see you feel that this is what needs to be done. I am a strong believer in it taking a village to raise a child.


 
What can I say? It takes a certain personality and a certain patience to deal with someone else's kids. I ain't it.



> Remember, he could be deciding your future some day


 
Gods willing I'll be dead by then. Sorry--My genetics have put me on the road to a potential early grave as it is, I don't need any help from people's unparented kids pushing me in.


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