# Who's Taekwondo on this Board  Rank, Years?



## TigerWoman

We haven't posted anything like this. The Kenpo people have WAY overmanned us.  Wouldn't be good in a fight. :goop:

Anyway, mostly for people looking and perhaps joining us....please list yourself, your rank, years in, when you joined Taekwondo, please.

artyon:


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## NW Boiler

1st Dan , 3 years (I have been slacking), studying TKD since 1999


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## terryl965

Started in 1984 with Gin Kim in southern California, Currently 3rd DAN own my own school here in Texas have my wife and three son's in it. My son's our 10 1st Poom 7 red belt and 5 red belt my wife is almost ready for Black Belt taken her 5 years but she has hung in there.. I think this was a great post TigarWoman Keep up the good work... God Bless America


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## bluemtn

I am currently a green belt (6 Kup) and have been studying for a year.  I originally started at a WTF school, but had to leave for college- that was back in 1999, and I was only a yellow belt there.


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## David4516

I am currently a Purple belt (4 kup/gup)


I started about 5 years ago, but I had to quit for a year do to an operation I had. I just started up again in september...

So actual time spent was more like 4 years...

My friends that started at the same time I did 5 years ago are all brown belts now, and will be ready to test for black soon... so I feel kinda left behind...


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## Shu2jack

Started in 1994 and am currently a 2nd degree. Some people tell me I have been in this longer than they have held any one job. :uhyeah:


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## Han-Mi

I started in 1991 and I am a 2nd dan in Chung Do Kwan TKD, I am loosely affiliated with the WTF and the KTA.


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## phlaw

Started TKD in 1992, currently Red belt, I took a few years (8) off after my Black Belt Test, I missed a couple techniques and got depressed and never retested, I am just not getting back into it.


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## ipscshooter

I've been studying ITF style TKD since early 1999, so it's been about 5 1/2 years. I am currently a 1st Dan Black Belt. My two sons, ages 11 and 18, are also 1st Dan. The 11 year old and I continue to work towards 2nd dan, and he will be entering a Tang Soo Do program when he starts middle school this fall. The 18 year old is no longer active, as his job and girlfriend seem to consume all of his time.


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## MichiganTKD

20 years in Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan-started in 1983 at the age of 14. Currently hold the rank of 4th Dan Black Belt and teach my own class affiliated with our Grandmaster's organization. Our school is WTF affiliated; we do the Palgue and WTF Black Belt forms.


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## terry_gardener

Been doing it for about 8 weeks, white belt first grading at the end of the month really looking forward to it.

I am with chung do kwan (WTF) in the north east of england


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## Tae Kwon Doughboy

Six months, yellow belt testing for orange June 19. 

Tried Soo Bahk Do for three months prior to that but couldn't put up with the one-way respect the master subscribed to. I needed to be where I could ask questions and get answers. So here I am with TKD under USTU and love it.


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## kik

I actually started TKD with ITF style back in the mid 70's then my mom had some money problems and I had to quit. I was a brown belt. Then back in 1991 I decided to take it up again, So I joined a WTF school With Master Duk Young Kwon, He made me start out as a white belt....AHHH!! But glad he did, he taught me Teageuk style. I am 41 yrs old Now, a 3rd Dan Kukkiwon Certified. Problem is I'm not a limber as I used to be...lol


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## Cruentus

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> We haven't posted anything like this. The Kenpo people have WAY overmanned us.  Wouldn't be good in a fight. :goop:
> 
> Anyway, mostly for people looking and perhaps joining us....please list yourself, your rank, years in, when you joined Taekwondo, please.
> 
> artyon:



Boy the rank/status question is a toughy for TKD. There are so many different versions, schools, and standards. A 1st degree in one school could smoke a 5th degree in another. So this doesn't do much for credability, but it is interesting to know who has done or does TKD here on MT!   

I started at a TKD/kickboxing/grappling "fight" school when I was 7. My teacher had recieved his 5th degree in ITF style from Han San Yu in Michigan (one of 8 Yu brothers who brought TKD to this state), and then won the world championship in kickboxing. Tired of the politics at the time, he broke off from the ITF.

He would only promote to 3rd degree, so 3rd was the highest ranked outside of Kerry Roop (the school owner) who was 5th. Yet, for awhile, we had students who ran amok on the open tournament circuit, winning national championships with only 1st and 2nd degrees. We even had a romanian guy with us for awhile (orignally a WTF guy) who ended up joining the Olimpic TKD team, and he was only a 2nd or 3rd degree.

Yet, I still run into TKD schools to this day with 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th degrees running around who have no competitive experience, and who have far less experience then some of the 2nd and 3rd degrees that I know. It's funny how it works that way.

Anyways, I studied TKD for about 12 or 13 years (age 7-19). I only have a 1st degree black belt from my school, because I didn't want a "junior black belt," and you couldn't have a real black belt at my school until you were at least 18 years of age. So, after my 18th B-day, I got my belt.

I now am not active in TKD, because I now persue other more combative and weapons based arts (will have been active in that for 15 yrs coming next year).

But...I can still "talk shop" a little with you crazy TKD-ers!
 :uhyeah:  :asian:


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## TigerWoman

I started at age 47 and am now, in 2004, 54. That makes it 8 years. My daughter and my son got me into it. Really thought I would be a professional white belt forever when I joined, but 3 months later...  My kids tested for 1st Dan a couple of years before me, but between high school and college, they both are not longer active.  I have tested and have one break to complete to get to 2nd Dan.  My school is WTF style, we do Taekguek and after 1st Dan, we learn Chonji, etc. ITF forms to test for 2nd. Wasn't flexible at the start but am now - anything is possible with work!
:asian:


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## kwanjang

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I started at age 47 and am now, in 2004, 54. That makes it 8 years. My daughter and my son got me into it. Really thought I would be a professional white belt forever when I joined, but 3 months later...  My kids tested for 1st Dan a couple of years before me, but between high school and college, they both are not longer active.  I have tested and have one break to complete to get to 2nd Dan.  My school is WTF style, we do Taekguek and after 1st Dan, we learn Chonji, etc. ITF forms to test for 2nd. Wasn't flexible at the start but am now - anything is possible with work!
> :asian:



Fantastic TigerWoman.  Although I teach Hap Ki Do (54 years now), and I probably have no business in this thread, I most certainly admire you for your tenacity and courage.  Many more years to ya


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## Han-Mi

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Boy the rank/status question is a toughy for TKD. There are so many different versions, schools, and standards. A 1st degree in one school could smoke a 5th degree in another. So this doesn't do much for credability, but it is interesting to know who has done or does TKD here on MT!
> 
> I started at a TKD/kickboxing/grappling "fight" school when I was 7. My teacher had recieved his 5th degree in ITF style from Han San Yu in Michigan (one of 8 Yu brothers who brought TKD to this state), and then won the world championship in kickboxing. Tired of the politics at the time, he broke off from the ITF.
> 
> He would only promote to 3rd degree, so 3rd was the highest ranked outside of Kerry Roop (the school owner) who was 5th. Yet, for awhile, we had students who ran amok on the open tournament circuit, winning national championships with only 1st and 2nd degrees. We even had a romanian guy with us for awhile (orignally a WTF guy) who ended up joining the Olimpic TKD team, and he was only a 2nd or 3rd degree.
> 
> Yet, I still run into TKD schools to this day with 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th degrees running around who have no competitive experience, and who have far less experience then some of the 2nd and 3rd degrees that I know. It's funny how it works that way.
> 
> Anyways, I studied TKD for about 12 or 13 years (age 7-19). I only have a 1st degree black belt from my school, because I didn't want a "junior black belt," and you couldn't have a real black belt at my school until you were at least 18 years of age. So, after my 18th B-day, I got my belt.
> 
> I now am not active in TKD, because I now persue other more combative and weapons based arts (will have been active in that for 15 yrs coming next year).
> 
> But...I can still "talk shop" a little with you crazy TKD-ers!
> :uhyeah: :asian:


Your just awsome, aren't you? Usually it's the ones who type like this who can't back it up. Competition is not the only way to gain experience, you should realize that in all your wisdom.  As for myself, I have won a few state championships and 1 international(in canada). That doesn't make me a better fighter, it just means I know how to play the game, all fighting in competition is a game. There are rules and regulations, In true combat, there are no rules. 

I think that years in the art is a sufficient way to measure somebody else's ability. 

Oh, I wanted to say also that I study the TaeGeuk forms... Which isn't as popular as I thought it was.


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## NW Boiler

TigerWoman....... I am smitten!     I bow to you and your ability to perserver!!!!


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## jfarnsworth

I started in '89 through '94. I achieved 2nd black. I'm also proud to have attained my 2nd black in with the Kenpo community. However I'm not one of those people who forgot where my roots came from. If anyone watches me spar they know. I still visit my first instructor one a somewhat regular basis in which we talk and I look at his new students, give my thoughts on the individuals then leave.


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## RCastillo

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I started in '89 through '94. I achieved 2nd black. I'm also proud to have attained my 2nd black in with the Kenpo community. However I'm not one of those people who forgot where my roots came from. If anyone watches me spar they know. I still visit my first instructor one a somewhat regular basis in which we talk and I look at his new students, give my thoughts on the individuals then leave.



Me, started in 83, and am semi inactive, 3rd Dan, ITF. My roots are also of great importance within Kenpo, but Kenpo is my main art.

My job now is to keep an eye on JFarnsworth, and keep him in check! :uhyeah:


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## jfarnsworth

RCastillo said:
			
		

> My job now is to keep an eye on JFarnsworth, and keep him in check! :uhyeah:



You'd better be keeping a real close eye   . Been hitting the gym twice a day and kenpo at night. I've been trying to bike on saturday or sunday when I can. Last sat. I put 30miles on the bike.
artyon:


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## Mithios

Lets see!  I started in 1980, at the age of 13, and am currently a 6th dan. Classical Chung Do Kwan & Oh Do Kwan(original I.T.F.) Also have a black belt in HapkiDo(Started "87")  Muay thai(started "91"). Doing more weapons training these day's.      Mithios


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## TigerWoman

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Fantastic TigerWoman.  Although I teach Hap Ki Do (54 years now), and I probably have no business in this thread, I most certainly admire you for your tenacity and courage.  Many more years to ya



Thank you.  I only wish I had started TKD even a decade or two earlier! But it does keep me "younger" than most my age.  I hope I have a few years left, God willing, and maybe more if I can take out the jumping aspect. :asian:


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## TigerWoman

NW Boiler said:
			
		

> TigerWoman....... I am smitten!     I bow to you and your ability to persevere!!!!



I certainly don't deserve all that, but I'll take your encouragement, thank you. My master has not exactly cut me any breaks. I have been trying to do the same break, a multiple jump for a YEAR and trained for a year before. Isn't there a saying, "Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win and never quit are idiots." Been feeling like one, lately.  But you made me smile.  
I will live to fight another day (do my break-Monday!!!!)


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## karatekid1975

I've been taking TKD for two and a half years (did TSD prior to that for a year).


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## LIONHEART

Hi Tigerwoman, great thread, I'm relatively new to Taekwon Do, been doing it for about 11 months and am currently a yellow belt (8th gu) going for green stripe in 2 weeks (studying ITF btw).

Im also currently doing Tai chi (there is no rank but have been doing it on and off for about a year), Hold a white belt in Kobujitsu (was green belt but stopped 6 years ago and just started again), and doing knife fighting from Amok and Systema and Eskrido. (yes I train to much I know heheh)

Ive been in the MA since I was 6 and hold various colour ranks in Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, Ninjitsu, Capoeira, Shotokan and Goju Ryu Karate and have had experience in Boxing and Kick Boxing.

Yours inMA LIONHEART


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## terryl965

Well LIONHEART why havent you stayed with one Art, that way you can come to have more of a understanding of that true Art.... God Bless America


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## MichiganTKD

Interestingly, even as a 14-15-16 year old student, I remember how obsessed I was with practicing. The other kids my age approached Tae Kwon Do more as recreation, and often didn't take it that seriously. I was so happy to be practicing Tae Kwon Do that I wanted to do everything. Basics, forms, kicking, sparring, it didn't matter. I wanted to do it all. I was usually one of the first to arrive and the last to leave.


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## LIONHEART

Hey terryl965 I often ask myself the same question and in hindsight wish I could take some years back to do it over, not that I regret what Ive experienced just that I wish Ide acheived a level of mastery before moving on.

Then again some of the arts I have had to stop due to injury and some I stopped due to genuine lack of care or full respect for the art in accordance with myself.

At the moment I am cross training because I enjoy the different cultures as well as arts and teachers, I feel I can learn more from all than 1 and they compliment each other really well I especially suggest the Fillipino Arts, I feel cross training gives me a greater understanding of myself as well as my arts.

Yours in MA LIONHEART


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## terryl965

LIONHEART said:
			
		

> Hey terryl965 I often ask myself the same question and in hindsight wish I could take some years back to do it over, not that I regret what Ive experienced just that I wish Ide acheived a level of mastery before moving on.
> 
> Then again some of the arts I have had to stop due to injury and some I stopped due to genuine lack of care or full respect for the art in accordance with myself.
> 
> At the moment I am cross training because I enjoy the different cultures as well as arts and teachers, I feel I can learn more from all than 1 and they compliment each other really well I especially suggest the Fillipino Arts, I feel cross training gives me a greater understanding of myself as well as my arts.
> 
> Yours in MA LIONHEART


Well Lionhart I hope your training is beneficial to you. I apploud out loud your ability to cross train, I wish I was able to do that but my mind can only learn one system at a time, I fully enjoy TKD all the conditioning and the self defense (old school) and my kid enjoy the sport aspect of TKD. Kindess regard give them Hell God Bless America


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## ronnie_au

Hello all.  I've only been at this about a month and a half.  But I'm testing for my yellow belt this weekend.  I am usually one of the first to get there and the last to leave, which I think has helped me grasp the basics very quickly.  After our classes on monday and wedensday we have about an hour before the Jujisu class starts and we have the rest of the evening on thursdays which we usually use to continue practicing .  It's WTF Tae Kwon Do, btw.


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## Black Belt FC

Started in 1979 and still a good white.............


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## TigerWoman

ronnie_au said:
			
		

> Hello all.  I've only been at this about a month and a half.  But I'm testing for my yellow belt this weekend.



Ah, LELLO belt. I would wish you good luck, but you probably don't need any.  Just enjoy the experience and of course, do your best.  My master always liked form slow but cadenced and showing alot of power.  When I tested, funny I was just thinking about testing as a white belt today, there were alot of belts in front of me and I was at the back of the huge room.  I think the master forgot I was there.  Everytime one of the colored belts did something wrong, we ALL had to do the form over again.  Well, six times later I was exhausted because I had really learned to show power with my form. Then, at the end, my master noticed that I was getting fried and he gave us ALL a five minute break. Yours probably won't be like this, it usually isn't repeated SIX times but... Enjoy, you are into your journey now.
TW


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## Eldritch Knight

I'm a 1st dan, been practicing since 1996. I got my 1st Dan in 2000, and if I had stayed at the McDojang that I got it at, I'd be 3rd by now. Luckily, I found an excellent teacher who actually knows what he's doing. Oh yeah, did I mention I'm also taking a full college courseload and 3 other MAs? Stupid hobbies - why do they have to be so interesting? ^_^


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## TigerWoman

Eldritch Knight said:
			
		

> I'm a 1st dan, been practicing since 1996. I got my 1st Dan in 2000, and if I had stayed at the McDojang that I got it at, I'd be 3rd by now. Luckily, I found an excellent teacher who actually knows what he's doing. Oh yeah, did I mention I'm also taking a full college courseload and 3 other MAs? Stupid hobbies - why do they have to be so interesting? ^_^



I got my 1st Dan, WTF, in 2001 and tested last year for 2nd Dan. I have to wait three more years until 2006, if I was to test for 3rd. If you don't mind me asking, if you had such a poor opinion of his teaching, why did you stay there so long to get something you just discounted as a McDojang? It sounds like you just made your effort to be a worthless black belt.  I hope not. I have had trouble with my master/instructor but he is a good teacher.  I respect him for that.  Hope your new teacher will gain your respect and make your black belt more meaningful. TW


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## jfarnsworth

Eldritch Knight said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, did I mention I'm also taking a full college courseload and 3 other MAs? Stupid hobbies - why do they have to be so interesting? ^_^



So,  :idunno: 
How do you stay proficient even at one? :asian:


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## elcajon555

2nd degree black belt(as of recently, I passed my 2nd degree test on june 5th 2004 woohoo)  I joined my school in february of 1998.


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## TigerWoman

elcajon555 said:
			
		

> 2nd degree black belt(as of recently, I passed my 2nd degree test on june 5th 2004 woohoo)  I joined my school in february of 1998.



CONGRATS!  I was wondering since I knew you were going to test again soon.  Best Wishes. TW


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## Anna Bastiaans

Started at age 15, have been practicing WTF Taekwondo for 11 years. Currently hold a 3-rd Dan degree. Started in Israel, tested for my Dans there as well, currently living and training in Holland (temporary) for the last 3 years.


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## jfarnsworth

elcajon555 said:
			
		

> 2nd degree black belt(as of recently, I passed my 2nd degree test on june 5th 2004 woohoo)  I joined my school in february of 1998.



CONGRATS


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## Littledragon

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> We haven't posted anything like this. The Kenpo people have WAY overmanned us. Wouldn't be good in a fight. :goop:
> 
> Anyway, mostly for people looking and perhaps joining us....please list yourself, your rank, years in, when you joined Taekwondo, please.
> 
> artyon:


I started Tae Kwon Do at age 6 and have been doing it for close to 11 years now. I am 16 and currently a 3rd degree black belt testing for 4th soon and a Tae Kwon Do champion.


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## MichiganTKD

How do you test for 4th Dan as a 16 year old? In WTF, you must be at least 24 to test for 4th Dan, usually older. I think 16 is pushing it for 3rd Dan. I'm not sure how it is with other organizations (ITF, ATA etc.), but most legitimate organizations have pretty strict guidelines regarding age for Dan ranks. Because we don't want 16 year old 4th Dans running around.
Isn't 16 year old 4th Dans one of the definitions of a McDojang?


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## Littledragon

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> How do you test for 4th Dan as a 16 year old? In WTF, you must be at least 24 to test for 4th Dan, usually older. I think 16 is pushing it for 3rd Dan. I'm not sure how it is with other organizations (ITF, ATA etc.), but most legitimate organizations have pretty strict guidelines regarding age for Dan ranks. Because we don't want 16 year old 4th Dans running around.
> Isn't 16 year old 4th Dans one of the definitions of a McDojang?


 
Isn't 16 year old 4th Dans one of the definitions of a McDojang?

Not our school we are the number 1 Tae Kwon Do school in Maryland and the 3rd best in the United States.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15290
www.wtkdm.com

Also it is not true you have to be 24 to be 4th dan in WTF. The Kukiwon are the one's who approve your black belt applications.


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## Disco

From the Kukkiwon Web Site. Note the remarks section below

Poom/Dan  Minimum Time
Required for Promotion    Age Limits for Promotion    
Start from Dan Start from Poom 
  1st Poom N A N A  Less than 15 Years Old 
  1st to 2nd Pom 1 year N A  Less than 15 Years Old 
  2nd to 3rd Poom  2 years  N A Less than 15 Years Old  
  3rd to 4th Poom  3 years  N A Less than 18 Years Old  
  1st Dan N A  15 years and above  N A  
  1st to 2nd Dan 1 year  16 years and above  15 years and above 
  2nd to 3rd Dan 2 years 18 years and above 15 years and above  
  3rd to 4th Dan  3 years 21 years and above 18 years and above 
  4th to 5th Dan  4 years  25 years and above 22 years and above  
  5th to 6th Dan  5 years  30 years and above 30 years and above 
  6th to 7th Dan  6 years  36 years and above  36 years and above 
  7th to 8th Dan  8 years  44 years and above 44 years and above 
  8th to 9th Dan  9 years  53 years and above 53 years and above  
  9th to 10th Dan N A  60 years and above 60 years and above  



    * Remarks: 
   (1) All applicants should have passed the minimum time and age required for promotion.
   (2) One who started from Poom may have the privilege of test application with shortened time limits
     until 5th Dan promotion.

2) 1st,2nd,3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, is the same grade of Dan holder.
    (4th Poom holder, being 18 years of age or above, is the same as 4th Dan holder)
    *1st, 2nd, 3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, can have the Dan Certificates when they
      want to change their Poom certificates. (4th Poom holder, being 18 years of age or above, can
    change the 4th Dan certificate)

3) When 1st, 2nd, 3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, want to be promoted to the next
    higher Dan,
    he or she can be applied Dan promotion test. However, 3rd Poom holder who is 18 years of age 
   and above can be applied 4th Dan and under 18 years of age can be applied 4th Poom.


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## Littledragon

Disco said:
			
		

> From the Kukkiwon Web Site. Note the remarks section below
> 
> Poom/Dan Minimum Time
> Required for Promotion Age Limits for Promotion
> Start from Dan Start from Poom
> 1st Poom N A N A Less than 15 Years Old
> 1st to 2nd Pom 1 year N A Less than 15 Years Old
> 2nd to 3rd Poom 2 years N A Less than 15 Years Old
> 3rd to 4th Poom 3 years N A Less than 18 Years Old
> 1st Dan N A 15 years and above N A
> 1st to 2nd Dan 1 year 16 years and above 15 years and above
> 2nd to 3rd Dan 2 years 18 years and above 15 years and above
> 3rd to 4th Dan 3 years 21 years and above 18 years and above
> 4th to 5th Dan 4 years 25 years and above 22 years and above
> 5th to 6th Dan 5 years 30 years and above 30 years and above
> 6th to 7th Dan 6 years 36 years and above 36 years and above
> 7th to 8th Dan 8 years 44 years and above 44 years and above
> 8th to 9th Dan 9 years 53 years and above 53 years and above
> 9th to 10th Dan N A 60 years and above 60 years and above
> 
> 
> 
> * Remarks:
> (1) All applicants should have passed the minimum time and age required for promotion.
> (2) One who started from Poom may have the privilege of test application with shortened time limits
> until 5th Dan promotion.
> 
> 2) 1st,2nd,3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, is the same grade of Dan holder.
> (4th Poom holder, being 18 years of age or above, is the same as 4th Dan holder)
> *1st, 2nd, 3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, can have the Dan Certificates when they
> want to change their Poom certificates. (4th Poom holder, being 18 years of age or above, can
> change the 4th Dan certificate)
> 
> 3) When 1st, 2nd, 3rd Poom holder, being 15 years of age or above, want to be promoted to the next
> higher Dan,
> he or she can be applied Dan promotion test. However, 3rd Poom holder who is 18 years of age
> and above can be applied 4th Dan and under 18 years of age can be applied 4th Poom.


Yes you are right I am testing for 4th degree black belt, 4th poom. I said DAN which was a mistake.


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## TKD USA

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> How do you test for 4th Dan as a 16 year old? In WTF, you must be at least 24 to test for 4th Dan, usually older. I think 16 is pushing it for 3rd Dan. I'm not sure how it is with other organizations (ITF, ATA etc.), but most legitimate organizations have pretty strict guidelines regarding age for Dan ranks. Because we don't want 16 year old 4th Dans running around.
> Isn't 16 year old 4th Dans one of the definitions of a McDojang?


I agree you are really to young to get no matter the age restrictions it really is a shame. I quit my old organization because I saw 6 year old black belts running around. I joined the USTU/WTF so that wouldn't happen and now there is a 16 year old that says he is going to test far 4th poom. Even though it's poom I still think that it is to much.


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## Littledragon

TKD USA said:
			
		

> I agree you are really to young to get no matter the age restrictions it really is a shame. I quit my old organization because I saw 6 year old black belts running around. I joined the USTU/WTF so that wouldn't happen and now there is a 16 year old that says he is going to test far 4th poom. Even though it's poom I still think that it is to much.


Well just remember I have had over 11 years of training.


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## TKD USA

Well 11 years is good but I met some people with many years of training and some are good and some arent. From your photos you seem very good but i stick with my opininon about that being to high of a rank.


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## jfarnsworth

TKD USA said:
			
		

> Well 11 years is good but I met some people with many years of training and some are good and some arent. From your photos you seem very good but i stick with my opininon about that being to high of a rank.



I agree as well. There has to be some sort of maturity that takes place once achieving adulthood.  There are far too many ego's to stroke out there & I for one don't stroke 'em. As far as someone starting when they are 6 each individual would have started out in the little dragon program. After becoming of age or appropriate rank (if you will) then the individual would have been promoted into the junior class. Once getting involved in the junior class then they would have to learn more to each belt curriculum. After becoming of age again then the individual would be put in the adults program will a strict set of requirements for each belt. If the individual received a black at each level they could keep it however before going into the next level they must be proficient at each colored belt level in each of the little dragon, junior, then adult program. No one would reach any multiple degree of black under my watch.


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## Littledragon

Remember the Kukiwon approves if you are ready to become a black belt so the Kukiwon has approved everything for me, I did not send my 4th poom application yet but I have been a 3rd degree black belt for more than 3 years.


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## jfarnsworth

Very interesting. You have been a third black since 13? Again, I will defend my position and say that is way tooooooooooooooooooooo young. That's my opinion and I will keep that my opinion until the day I die.  :asian:


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## Littledragon

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Very interesting. You have been a third black since 13? Again, I will defend my position and say that is way tooooooooooooooooooooo young. That's my opinion and I will keep that my opinion until the day I die. :asian:


All I can tell you is that skill proves everything and the Kukiwon approved the application my Master sent as well. They look at how many years you have been doing it not necessarily how old you are.


----------



## jfarnsworth

Littledragon said:
			
		

> All I can tell you is that skill proves everything and the Kukiwon approved the application my Master sent as well.


I was not giving you some personal attack here, just giving my opinion. 



> They look at how many years you have been doing it not necessarily how old you are


I've been in various martial arts for almost 15 yrs. if I had stayed in the TKD from the beginning should I then be 5th? From my first TKD instructor I was always informed that 4th degree was master status. If you look at tournaments it's 1-3 & 4th up was the master division. I'm no where near even close to any master stage at all. My skills are good but I personally don't think I'm ready for 3rd yet. There are many, many, many numerous things to learn from many people more technically sound.


----------



## Littledragon

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I was not giving you some personal attack here, just giving my opinion.
> 
> 
> I've been in various martial arts for almost 15 yrs. if I had stayed in the TKD from the beginning should I then be 5th? From my first TKD instructor I was always informed that 4th degree was master status. If you look at tournaments it's 1-3 & 4th up was the master division. I'm no where near even close to any master stage at all. My skills are good but I personally don't think I'm ready for 3rd yet. There are many, many, many numerous things to learn from many people more technically sound.


I did not take it as an attack I am not that kind of person  Anyway I see where you are coming from and I would feel the same if I was in your posistion. I do not like how the Kukiwon and the WTF in its recent money laundering scandal trys to make money any wasy possible but as long as they certify me I can be called a certified legitimate 4th degree black belt or what so ever the rank may be.

Tarek


----------



## jfarnsworth

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I did not take it as an attack I am not that kind of person


Good, I'm glad to hear that as I wasn't trying to degrade you personally.



> Anyway I see where you are coming from and I would feel the same if I was in your posistion. I do not like how the Kukiwon and the WTF in its recent money laundering scandal trys to make money any wasy possible...


One of the many reasons I left the TKD system.



> but as long as they certify me I can be called a certified legitimate 4th degree black belt or what so ever the rank may be


I seen you quote Mr. Ed Parker Sr. here somewhere so I'm going to leave you with some others.

Orange Belt saying #5 - One becomes humble when he comes to the realization that what he knows is very little.

Green Belt saying #3 - Although belt colors show, it is no proof that you know.

3rd Brown saying #2 - What is truth for one may not be truth for another. The real truth for both lies in the moment of actual combat.

Lastly:

1st Black saying #10 - It is not important how long you have been IN the arts, but how long you have been AT it.

Best of luck in your training. :asian:  :asian:  :asian:


----------



## Littledragon

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Good, I'm glad to hear that as I wasn't trying to degrade you personally.
> 
> 
> One of the many reasons I left the TKD system.
> 
> 
> I seen you quote Mr. Ed Parker Sr. here somewhere so I'm going to leave you with some others.
> 
> Orange Belt saying #5 - One becomes humble when he comes to the realization that what he knows is very little.
> 
> Green Belt saying #3 - Although belt colors show, it is no proof that you know.
> 
> 3rd Brown saying #2 - What is truth for one may not be truth for another. The real truth for both lies in the moment of actual combat.
> 
> Lastly:
> 
> 1st Black saying #10 - It is not important how long you have been IN the arts, but how long you have been AT it.
> 
> Best of luck in your training. :asian: :asian: :asian:


Great quotes, thank you. 

Tarek


----------



## TigerWoman

Hi y'all,
Previously in our school, we had a second dan at 14.  He had been in TKD since 6 also.  He came all the time, and was very talented.  However my master would not let him advance/test to 3rd until he became 18.  He had little patience and left after a couple of years. 

Littledragon, when did you test originally for 1st Dan?  My master does test the younger ones, but they have to be ten years old when they test for Recommended BB. Even at adult requirements for time involved-- after age 10 1/2 he would have had to wait until at least two years to get to 2nd dan-12 1/2 yrs. Then he would have to wait three years until testing for 3rd, then five years until 4th dan.   He would be 20 1/2 years and had put in since age 6,  14 1/2 years. 

 A ten year old just tested yesterday. A child under 12, breaks half boards but they have to do all the same requirements as adults. He had to palm strike 3 boards, knife while holding the board in one hand, jump spin heel break with two finger hold, 360° jump back kick through 2 boards.  That's only half the requirements for board breaking because there are 4 more for 2nd dan and a new BB test in 6 months. This little guy only did the 360 jbk, he will have to complete the rest.

You would be a little too young for most adults, in TKD or not, to accept as a 4th poom/dan at 16.  Mostly because there is a alot more to TKD beside technique, it takes maturity in life experience to be a master and teacher in my opinion. But you are way ahead of us, as that can be gained with time and wisdom. Just keep focused and on the road. Best wishes. TW


----------



## Littledragon

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Hi y'all,
> Previously in our school, we had a second dan at 14. He had been in TKD since 6 also. He came all the time, and was very talented. However my master would not let him advance/test to 3rd until he became 18. He had little patience and left after a couple of years.
> 
> Littledragon, when did you test originally for 1st Dan? My master does test the younger ones, but they have to be ten years old when they test for Recommended BB. Even at adult requirements for time involved-- after age 10 1/2 he would have had to wait until at least two years to get to 2nd dan-12 1/2 yrs. Then he would have to wait three years until testing for 3rd, then five years until 4th dan. He would be 20 1/2 years and had put in since age 6, 14 1/2 years.
> 
> A ten year old just tested yesterday. A child under 12, breaks half boards but they have to do all the same requirements as adults. He had to palm strike 3 boards, knife while holding the board in one hand, jump spin heel break with two finger hold, 360° jump back kick through 2 boards. That's only half the requirements for board breaking because there are 4 more for 2nd dan and a new BB test in 6 months. This little guy only did the 360 jbk, he will have to complete the rest.
> 
> You would be a little too young for most adults, in TKD or not, to accept as a 4th poom/dan at 16. Mostly because there is a alot more to TKD beside technique, it takes maturity in life experience to be a master and teacher in my opinion. But you are way ahead of us, as that can be gained with time and wisdom. Just keep focused and on the road. Best wishes. TW


I tested for blackbelt when I was around 8 1/2. I am a 4x international Tae Kwon Do champion and the Kukiwon has certified me as a 3rd degree.

Also I train under the 3rd best Tae Kwon Do school in the US www.wtkdm.com and the #1 TKD school in Maryland so I have learned under the TOP instruction for Tae Kwon Do.


----------



## TKD USA

Littledragon said:
			
		

> I am a 4x international Tae Kwon Do champion.


Really? Wow! Which medals have you won and at what tournaments have you won them from


----------



## Littledragon

TKD USA said:
			
		

> Really? Wow! Which medals have you won and at what tournaments have you won them from


2x Pan Ameircan Open International Champion
Blackbelt USA International Champion
Fort Worth International Blackbelt Champion


----------



## MichiganTKD

I would never, under any circumstances, allow a 16 year old to test 4th Dan. Much like I would never promote an 8 year old to 1st Dan. Doing so insults every student above a certain age who has attained that Dan.
In my opinion, you should not promote anyone under the age of 25 to 4th Dan. Reason: By age 25, you should be out of school, independent, with a good job, and responsible for your own life. How can you have a Master Instructor (which is what Tae Kwon Do 4th Dan is) at 16? A 16 year old is still in school, cannot drive, cannot drink, cannot vote, lives at home. In short, is in no way independent. And you want to promote them to the rank of Instructor with the power to judge other students, including adults? Impossible.


----------



## Littledragon

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I would never, under any circumstances, allow a 16 year old to test 4th Dan. Much like I would never promote an 8 year old to 1st Dan. Doing so insults every student above a certain age who has attained that Dan.
> In my opinion, you should not promote anyone under the age of 25 to 4th Dan. Reason: By age 25, you should be out of school, independent, with a good job, and responsible for your own life. How can you have a Master Instructor (which is what Tae Kwon Do 4th Dan is) at 16? A 16 year old is still in school, cannot drive, cannot drink, cannot vote, lives at home. In short, is in no way independent. And you want to promote them to the rank of Instructor with the power to judge other students, including adults? Impossible.


Don't complain to me compain to the Kukkiwon about it.


----------



## MichiganTKD

Your Instructor still makes the recommendation. Regardless of what is allowed, any Instructor who would recommend a teenager to the rank of 4th Dan is irresponsible and does a tremendous disservice to Tae Kwon Do, or any martial art. My Instructor has made decisions concerning his Organization (age, time between testings etc.) that did not follow exactly the guidelines of the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon establishes minimum guidelines.
And before you prattle on about "Well I've won these tournaments and I'm this champion in these events", it doesn't matter. How good your technique is only partially matters for testing. You may have fantastic technique, but if I think you are too young to test, guess what? You wait until you're older. If that means 5-6 more years, so be it. 
This is the problem with having very young children practicing. They start out at 5 years old, and want to be black belts (or their parents want them to be black belts) when they're 8. Then they expect to be 2nd and 3rd Dans when they're 12 or 13 thinking "well I've been practicing since I was 5." Well guess what? You're still too young.
You really think 5 year old or 8 year old is doing the same Tae Kwon Do as an adult or older student? They are not. They are doing more of a recreational form of Tae Kwon Do that their bodies and minds can handle. Then to think that their ability or talent matches that of an older student is absurd. The idea of a teenager being able to successful carry out the duties, reponsibilities, and symbolism of a Master Instructor is laughable. Would you elect a 16 year old as President? I don't think so.
You know, if I were judging at a testing and a 16 year old boy (and a 16 year old is still a boy) was seated next to me to judge, you know what I would do? I would get up and leave. Any organization that would promote a teenager to Instructor doesn't deserve my presence.


----------



## terryl965

MichiganTKD If memory serve me right you belong to the Kukkiwon and the WTF right. Not questioning your Opion, each there own, but if you support the Kukkiwon why do you question there guidelines. And remember there have been kings and Queens of nations by the time they were 16 and we have doctors that are gifted and get all the requirement to practice medicine by the time there 12 of course not on me, My dr. needs to be my age atleast. GOD BLESS AMERICA


----------



## MichiganTKD

Nobody says I have to accept all their guidelines. My Instructor certainly doesn't. I can't imagine him allowing a 16 year old student to test for 4th Dan. And even if he did, I can't imagine our other Instructors accepting it.


----------



## Littledragon

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Your Instructor still makes the recommendation. Regardless of what is allowed, any Instructor who would recommend a teenager to the rank of 4th Dan is irresponsible and does a tremendous disservice to Tae Kwon Do, or any martial art. My Instructor has made decisions concerning his Organization (age, time between testings etc.) that did not follow exactly the guidelines of the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon establishes minimum guidelines.
> And before you prattle on about "Well I've won these tournaments and I'm this champion in these events", it doesn't matter. How good your technique is only partially matters for testing. You may have fantastic technique, but if I think you are too young to test, guess what? You wait until you're older. If that means 5-6 more years, so be it.
> This is the problem with having very young children practicing. They start out at 5 years old, and want to be black belts (or their parents want them to be black belts) when they're 8. Then they expect to be 2nd and 3rd Dans when they're 12 or 13 thinking "well I've been practicing since I was 5." Well guess what? You're still too young.
> You really think 5 year old or 8 year old is doing the same Tae Kwon Do as an adult or older student? They are not. They are doing more of a recreational form of Tae Kwon Do that their bodies and minds can handle. Then to think that their ability or talent matches that of an older student is absurd. The idea of a teenager being able to successful carry out the duties, reponsibilities, and symbolism of a Master Instructor is laughable. Would you elect a 16 year old as President? I don't think so.
> You know, if I were judging at a testing and a 16 year old boy (and a 16 year old is still a boy) was seated next to me to judge, you know what I would do? I would get up and leave. Any organization that would promote a teenager to Instructor doesn't deserve my presence.


The Kukkiwon's policy is based on experienced and how many years one has done if, if I have been a 3rd for a certian amount of years I will be allowed to test for fourth. Don't say my Masyer is irresponsible, he is the Maryland State Head Coach and the Collegiate USA Junior Team Coach, like I said we are the 3rd best Tae Kwon Do School in the U.S., we produce champions so we are not a school that just gives belts away. We have one of the top competition TKD teams in the WORLD. We have 2 people going to the OLYMPICS, yes the OLYMPICS.


----------



## Littledragon

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Nobody says I have to accept all their guidelines. My Instructor certainly doesn't. I can't imagine him allowing a 16 year old student to test for 4th Dan. And even if he did, I can't imagine our other Instructors accepting it.


I really don't know why you are so concerned with this. The Kukiwon's rules always me to test for fourth if I have been 2rd for a certain number of years. If you don't like it that I am 4th don't start making a big deal about it. If your school is so good tell me the name and instructor and let me see if I have heard of them, we know the schools that are the best ranked by the USTU.


----------



## MichiganTKD

Oh, so being a TKD tournament champion qualifies you to be a 4th Dan Master Instructor? All that means is you are a well conditioned athlete. 

As I said before, how many years you have practiced and the number of years between testings is only part of the story. Trust me, being a Master Instructor requires a maturity and mindset that a 16 year old boy is incapable of. If just being a tournament champion was the requirement for 4th Dan, there'd be a lot more 4th dans running around. Being a tournament champion looks nice on a resume, and it certainly can be used as part of your credentials down the road, but it does not qualify you to be an Instructor.
And yes, your Instructor is irresponsible for recommending you to 4th Dan. You come off as a shrill little kid trying to defend him by the way.


----------



## terryl965

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Nobody says I have to accept all their guidelines. My Instructor certainly doesn't. I can't imagine him allowing a 16 year old student to test for 4th Dan. And even if he did, I can't imagine our other Instructors accepting it.


First off not trying to change your mind I like your opions you are very strong with them. My question is how can you follow an organization if you particuly do ot accept there guidelines, and I relize everybody has different views when it comes to being the right age, me for one have never understood you can fight for America freedom at the age of 18 but yet you can not have a drink until the age of 21. You're ld enough to get killed in war but can't have a drink silly, but thats the rules of our great nation. Just looking for your reasoning behind your opion. Thank look forward to your reply. GOD BLESS AMERICA


----------



## MichiganTKD

Good question.

Our Grandmaster is 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do. What that means is that, although we are affiliated with the WTF, by virtue of his rank and position in the Tae Kwon Do community, he is not absolutely bound to accept all their rules. For example, if we were strictly USTU or WTF, and especially if he were not 9th Dan, we would not have as much autonomy as we do.
As far as free fighting, we follow WTF rules. However, even though the WTF may allow the promotion of a 16 year old to 4th Dan, he would not. That is his choice. Let's say that, hypothetically, the student decided to go over his head and protest not being allowed to test due to his age. That would be a grave insult and would most likely result in expulsion.
Basically, his organization his rules. Usually WTF or Kukkiwon rules for testing are obeyed (use of forms, sparring rules, length if time). However, our Grandmaster also reserves the right to use rules at his discretion. He cannot go under Kukkiwon guidelines (testing below a certain amount of time) but he can most certainly go over. A 16 year old teen may _technically_ be allowed to test 4th Dan (Kukkiwon guideline), but it is highly unlikely that he would follow that. Guess what? The student has no choice. Noone else can recommend him. If I choose not to allow my student to test for whatever reason (age, time between testing, lack of ability), they can't test. Unless they quit and go somewhere else, they have no choice.


----------



## terryl965

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Good question.
> 
> Our Grandmaster is 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do. What that means is that, although we are affiliated with the WTF, by virtue of his rank and position in the Tae Kwon Do community, he is not absolutely bound to accept all their rules. For example, if we were strictly USTU or WTF, and especially if he were not 9th Dan, we would not have as much autonomy as we do.
> As far as free fighting, we follow WTF rules. However, even though the WTF may allow the promotion of a 16 year old to 4th Dan, he would not. That is his choice. Let's say that, hypothetically, the student decided to go over his head and protest not being allowed to test due to his age. That would be a grave insult and would most likely result in expulsion.
> Basically, his organization his rules. Usually WTF or Kukkiwon rules for testing are obeyed (use of forms, sparring rules, length if time). However, our Grandmaster also reserves the right to use rules at his discretion. He cannot go under Kukkiwon guidelines (testing below a certain amount of time) but he can most certainly go over. A 16 year old teen may _technically_ be allowed to test 4th Dan (Kukkiwon guideline), but it is highly unlikely that he would follow that. Guess what? The student has no choice. Noone else can recommend him. If I choose not to allow my student to test for whatever reason (age, time between testing, lack of ability), they can't test. Unless they quit and go somewhere else, they have no choice.


 MichigaTKD very well put thank you for explaining a little more and you are absolutely right your GrandMaster get to make his decission on wheather or not to Test anybody he has earned that right. Again Thanks and GOD BLESS


----------



## MichiganTKD

People accuse me of being hardheaded, closeminded, and arrogant. I am not. I have a certain way that I think is right and I follow that.
Being very openminded can be liberating and allow freedom to try things. But it can also lead to chaos because you don't know what the right way is. Staying on the set path has kept me out of trouble and provided me with direction. At least I know where I stand.


----------



## Littledragon

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Oh, so being a TKD tournament champion qualifies you to be a 4th Dan Master Instructor? All that means is you are a well conditioned athlete.
> 
> As I said before, how many years you have practiced and the number of years between testings is only part of the story. Trust me, being a Master Instructor requires a maturity and mindset that a 16 year old boy is incapable of. If just being a tournament champion was the requirement for 4th Dan, there'd be a lot more 4th dans running around. Being a tournament champion looks nice on a resume, and it certainly can be used as part of your credentials down the road, but it does not qualify you to be an Instructor.
> And yes, your Instructor is irresponsible for recommending you to 4th Dan. You come off as a shrill little kid trying to defend him by the way.


I think it is wrong of you to judge somone by their age. I devote my time to teach every single day, kids adults etc.. I have requests from parents asking me to teach their kids. I read every single book and information on martial arts so I contain knoweldge when a student ask me a question about martial arts and most important life. Yes I am young but we are all students and forever learning, for being a martial artist for 25 years I thought it tought humility, so you should not judge anyone. I am not a 4th degree black belt yet so even if I am thats not your concern. Stick to what you will do and I will stick to what I will do.


----------



## MichiganTKD

There are two things a 16 year old is not qualified to do: Test for Master Instructor, and give advice about life. What do you know about life? Because you read some book? 
It doesn't matter how many years, how good you are, and if you teach others. You are still 16 years old. You may protest otherwise, but the fact is a 16 year old kid is not mentally, psychologically, or socially ready or mature enough to be a 4th Dan. Just from the way you respond and the tone of your postings, you make it obvious you are just a kid.
Congratulations on being allowed to teach. I taught as well when I was 16.


----------



## Littledragon

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> There are two things a 16 year old is not qualified to do: Test for Master Instructor, and give advice about life. What do you know about life? Because you read some book?
> It doesn't matter how many years, how good you are, and if you teach others. You are still 16 years old. You may protest otherwise, but the fact is a 16 year old kid is not mentally, psychologically, or socially ready or mature enough to be a 4th Dan. Just from the way you respond and the tone of your postings, you make it obvious you are just a kid.
> Congratulations on being allowed to teach. I taught as well when I was 16.


I don't make any judgements about you so don't make any about me. You have no clue about me and know nothing.


----------



## clfsean

Just to add fuel to the fire... I started MA when I was 11 in 1981. I studied MooDukKwan TKD. There was no separate kid's class & I had to play with the big kids. I studied, practiced & advanced pretty well for my age. When I was 14 or so I reached Red Belt 1st Degree. My instructor (5th Degree) pulled me off to the side & asked me how old I was & when was my birthday. I told him. He shook his head, gave a little click with teeth & said "Enjoy the practice time. You're not 16, no black belt". End of discussion. So I spent the next 18 months or so teaching, training & working hard. The fact somebody under 16 "gets" a black belt nowadays just annoys the crap out of me. Feel lucky you've gotten as far as you have. When I started, it was a no go. There were no "Black Belt Clubs" or "Junior Black Belts" blah blah blah... no kiddie daycare Karate... nada.

Also I've been studying a lot longer than you've been around, I'm just now getting full control of myself, let alone any martial art. Don't rush and don't assume you're ready to be called Master. You need another 10 years or so to get in the neighborhood....


----------



## jfarnsworth

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I would never, under any circumstances, allow a 16 year old to test 4th Dan. Much like I would never promote an 8 year old to 1st Dan. Doing so insults every student above a certain age who has attained that Dan.
> In my opinion, you should not promote anyone under the age of 25 to 4th Dan. Reason: By age 25, you should be out of school, independent, with a good job, and responsible for your own life. How can you have a Master Instructor (which is what Tae Kwon Do 4th Dan is) at 16? A 16 year old is still in school, cannot drive, cannot drink, cannot vote, lives at home. In short, is in no way independent. And you want to promote them to the rank of Instructor with the power to judge other students, including adults? Impossible.



I have agreed with everything you have said in this thread. :asian:  You definately aren't alone.


----------



## MichiganTKD

Well said and agreed.


----------



## Shogun

I am almost 19, and would'nt think about being promoted beyond Shodan (I Do Japanese arts, though), unless it was honorary. I had a friend who claimed 3rd degree black belt (TKD) at 15.       Ha  Ha  Ha     .......is all I could say. MAYBE 1st black... but If I was a TKD instructor, I wouldnt promote to 1st black until 16. In my Aiki style, testing for 5th Kyu (first test) can take as long as 2.5 years. I have been training for about 2 years, and arent ready for the test. its equivelant to brown belt in other arts. We even wear a Hakama at 5th kyu.


----------



## ParrotheadTPA

I've been doing TKD for about 8 months., I am a Gold Belt, should be testing for Orange soon.  I attend a school run under US Chung Do Kwan.


----------



## rainbows

I'm a red tag (3rd gup), ITF. I've been doing TKD for 2 years and I was doing kenpo for 7 years before that. I'm hoping to test for red belt next month.
 :asian:


----------



## Ahriman

I know this post is late, but I just recently joined :idunno: 

I've been doing Tae Kwon Do for over 9 yrs. First dan black belt.


----------



## Gizmo

I'm 32, in TKD since 1986. Currently 4th Dan, no plans of testing to 5th in the nearest future   

Regards

Gizmo


----------



## Gizmo

BTW - being an instructor since 10 years, and working with kids, I also don't really know what do we need the 4th Poom for... :idunno: 

Gizmo


----------



## hardheadjarhead

47, 5th, martial arts since 1973.

Regards,

Steve


----------



## terryl965

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Good question.
> 
> Our Grandmaster is 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do. What that means is that, although we are affiliated with the WTF, by virtue of his rank and position in the Tae Kwon Do community, he is not absolutely bound to accept all their rules. For example, if we were strictly USTU or WTF, and especially if he were not 9th Dan, we would not have as much autonomy as we do.
> As far as free fighting, we follow WTF rules. However, even though the WTF may allow the promotion of a 16 year old to 4th Dan, he would not. That is his choice. Let's say that, hypothetically, the student decided to go over his head and protest not being allowed to test due to his age. That would be a grave insult and would most likely result in expulsion.
> Basically, his organization his rules. Usually WTF or Kukkiwon rules for testing are obeyed (use of forms, sparring rules, length if time). However, our Grandmaster also reserves the right to use rules at his discretion. He cannot go under Kukkiwon guidelines (testing below a certain amount of time) but he can most certainly go over. A 16 year old teen may _technically_ be allowed to test 4th Dan (Kukkiwon guideline), but it is highly unlikely that he would follow that. Guess what? The student has no choice. Noone else can recommend him. If I choose not to allow my student to test for whatever reason (age, time between testing, lack of ability), they can't test. Unless they quit and go somewhere else, they have no choice.


 See this is what I like about you MTKD you are very percise about your views and are able to give qaulity proof behind your statements. Keep up the good work here on MA talk.com. We are a value to any forum. GOD BLESS AMERICA


----------



## Sarah

Hi Im from New Zealand; I have been training for almost a year and have just graded to Yellow Belt Green Tip. My Dojo is a combination of different styles but our traditional aspects/basics/hyungs etc lie in TKD. 

We also do a lot of grappling/ground fighting/joint locks/pressure points/full contact sparring (no headgear, just mouth guards)/stick fighting etc etc.

We train hard and it is tough to grade, we are only allowed to grade a max of twice a year, so at the least it will take 4.5/5yrs to reach BB. I have seen at other TKD clubs you can go from white belt to black belt in three years.

Its not like that at our club, it is a long hard journey to Black Belt, but thats how it should be, and that is why the high ranks in our club are respected.

Its sad that TKD has a bit of a rep for being soft, but maybe thats just here.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Sarah said:
			
		

> Hi I&#8217;m from New Zealand;
> 
> We also do a lot of grappling/ground fighting/joint locks/pressure points/full contact sparring (no headgear, just mouth guards)/stick fighting etc etc.





Tough school, tough standards.

So when you guys fight, you try to put each other down and out?  You go for the knockout on each shot?

Regards,


Steve


----------



## Sarah

No, we don't try to pummel each other, because at my level what would I learn?? Our job is to make our partner a better fighter, to learn to read them to look for and make holes, when I find a hole and tag my partner they are learning where their weakness is.

Our Instructor makes sure people at our level dont get to carried away, becuse with beginners there is more ego than ability, but when we are fighting the senior we can get knocked around a bit. The difference is the seniors have more control so they push you enough to be uncomfortable but not so much that we go home crying!!

Most of the injuries/KO's tend to be in the yellow belt class....egos coming out to play, especially with the guys.

My instructor has just started having an event every three months at our Dojo a 'Fyte Nyte' which is kinda like K1, lots of lights, a boxing ring etc etc, it's heaps of fun, people from other clubs wont to be part of it now...in these fights people go hard!!! I havent entered one yet because I dont have the confidence, but it will be something to aim for.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Okay.  So you do in fact use control...not full contact.  Leastwise not at your level.

My compliments to your instructor for his uncompromising standards.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Sarah

Sorry, misuse of description, just meaning that we dont use headgear etc, just gloves and shin pads.

My instructor is very good, but it must be pretty hard trying to keep young guys with big egos and there first coloured belt under control.

Sparring is a challenge for me, when I started I had never been hit before and it was a weird concept having someone trying to hit me. Luckily at our Dojo we have amazing seniors and Black Belts who have taken it really slowly with me and I am gradually getting more confidence.


----------



## Ahriman

I wish the best of luck to you in your training. And when you do enter your first 'Fyte Nyte' (sorry if I misspelled it), good luck and post how you do, I'd like to hear how well you do. When I did my first tournament, I was extremely scared with no confidence. Yet I placed first in my division (imagine the suprise I had).


----------



## Sarah

Ahriman said:
			
		

> I wish the best of luck to you in your training. And when you do enter your first 'Fyte Nyte' (sorry if I misspelled it), good luck and post how you do, I'd like to hear how well you do. When I did my first tournament, I was extremely scared with no confidence. Yet I placed first in my division (imagine the suprise I had).


I sure will, however it wont be for some time yet, maybe next year when I have learnt more and am feeling more confident.  

Its the old catch 22, I dont wont to enter until I feel more confident, but once I do it I will be proud of myself for getting in there and will feel more confident !


----------



## Klondike93

I started originally in 1975, ITF style for a little over 2 years then was out of an official school til 1985. Made 1st Dan in 1987 and have been that rank ever since. After 87 I started to learn Kenpo and stayed with that til last year, but now spend my time with Systema. 


 :supcool:


----------



## Sarah

Klondike93 said:
			
		

> I started originally in 1975, ITF style for a little over 2 years then was out of an official school til 1985. Made 1st Dan in 1987 and have been that rank ever since. After 87 I started to learn Kenpo and stayed with that til last year, but now spend my time with Systema.
> 
> 
> :supcool:


How do you find the difference between the Three??

I have heard a little about Systema, is it similar in any ways to eastern MA??


----------



## Klondike93

Sarah said:
			
		

> How do you find the difference between the Three??
> 
> I have heard a little about Systema, is it similar in any ways to eastern MA??



I like TKD for kicking people in the head, went to kenpo to learn to use my hands and the self defense aspect.

The closest art you can compare to Systema would be aikido, but the system is softer, yet harder. It's really hard to compare it to any other MA, so there's a saying, "you can't explain the system only experience it". If you just watch it, it looks like a bunch of people falling down all the time, you have to actually get out on the mat and feel why they're falling down. I guess a good way to put it would be the system is what you make it. Some times soft, some times hard and other times a little of both.


 :supcool:


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Klondike93 said:
			
		

> I started originally in 1975, ITF style for a little over 2 years then was out of an official school til 1985. Made 1st Dan in 1987 and have been that rank ever since. After 87 I started to learn Kenpo and stayed with that til last year, but now spend my time with Systema.
> 
> 
> :supcool:




Nice diversity in training there, Klondike.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## bluespacething

I started back in 2001....I'm currently a brown belt WTF.  

I don't know if many schools do testing this way...but once a student gets to purple...then they have to get a senior belt of that color before moving to the next color. So we go white, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, purple senior, brown, brown senior, red, red senior.  So it's basically getting a second belt before moving on to the next level.  Do any of you have this in your ranks?

And my school has just instituted a new testing for those going for their brown senior and red senior belts. People going for these belts (which will be me at my next test) have to do all the patterns, know how to teach three different breaks, be able to command a class, teach a class, do the techniques from the last 2 quarters. This is to prepare us for our black belt test...and I know it will be tough, but I look forward to it.


----------



## TigerWoman

Hi bluespacething,

Our school is white, yellow, orange, green, high green/striped black, blue, high blue/striped black, red, high red/striped black on the inside, recommended black belt/striped black on outside, black lst dan  TW


----------



## MichiganTKD

Our organization is WTF as well. We do white, yellow, yellow green (some do orange), low green/high green, low blue/high blue, low red/high red, black. No breaking until black belt test, 1st Dan testers must write a three page essay, no teaching until after black belt. You only perform your current form at testing. And free fighting is light to moderate contact, but you must show you can contact with at least one technique.

In 20+ years of practicing, I haven't seen many changes in the way we conduct testings. Other that headgear, our testings have been the same for 30+ years.


----------



## Zepp

I could almost swear I've posted in this thread before, but I don't see myself anywhere.  :idunno:  Oh well.

I'm a youngin' compared to most of you.  I've been training in Chung Do Kwan style Tae Kwon Do for about five years in the World Tae Kwon Do Association.  I received my 1st dan from Grandmaster Duk Sung Son in August 2002.  I also train in some other arts when I have the time, but I love TKD and plan on sticking with it as my base for a long time.


----------



## MichiganTKD

I'm Chung Do Kwan as well. Our Instructor's instructor is Grandmaster Uhm, Chung Do Kwan President and WTF/Kukkiwon VP.


----------



## Zepp

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I'm Chung Do Kwan as well. Our Instructor's instructor is Grandmaster Uhm, Chung Do Kwan President and WTF/Kukkiwon VP.


I know, I've read you're posts before. 

Grandmaster Son was the head instructor of the Chung Do Kwan way back before Tae Kwon Do had been named.  I think the way Grandmaster Uhm teaches things today are probably just a tad different than the way we do things, but then again, maybe not so different.  It'd be interesting to compare notes and curriculums sometime, on a different thread.


----------



## Tkang_TKD

Hello All,

I'm currently red belt/brown tip (3rd guep in my school). Been training WTF style since May 2001. 

I currently train under Master Troy Rawls in San Diego, and Grand Master Gerald Wynn.

I'm pretty new to Martial Talk, but I have been lurking for a couple of weeks. I've been learning alot


----------



## Tkang_TKD

bluespacething said:
			
		

> I started back in 2001....I'm currently a brown belt WTF.
> 
> I don't know if many schools do testing this way...but once a student gets to purple...then they have to get a senior belt of that color before moving to the next color. So we go white, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, purple senior, brown, brown senior, red, red senior. So it's basically getting a second belt before moving on to the next level. Do any of you have this in your ranks?
> 
> And my school has just instituted a new testing for those going for their brown senior and red senior belts. People going for these belts (which will be me at my next test) have to do all the patterns, know how to teach three different breaks, be able to command a class, teach a class, do the techniques from the last 2 quarters. This is to prepare us for our black belt test...and I know it will be tough, but I look forward to it.


My school is very similar. Our rank structure goes white, yellow, green, green/blue tip, blue, blue/red tip, red, red/brown tip, brown, brown/black tip, black belt.

We do both the old Palgwe patterns and the Taeguek patterns. 2 patterns for each ranking up to brown belt. At brown, we do Palgwe 8, and then Taeguek 8 for brown/black tip.

When testing for black belt, we have to demonstrate all 8 Palgwe patterns, and all 8 Taeguek patterns. We also demonstrate a combination of about 40 or so wrist locks, escapes, hapkido techniques etc... and perform 5 board breaks with various techniques and one brick break using a palm strike.

It's been a blast for me so far.  I've gotten in the best shape of my life thanks to TKD


----------



## Bigodinho

LIONHEART said:
			
		

> Hi Tigerwoman, great thread, I'm relatively new to Taekwon Do, been doing it for about 11 months and am currently a yellow belt (8th gu) going for green stripe in 2 weeks (studying ITF btw).
> 
> Im also currently doing Tai chi (there is no rank but have been doing it on and off for about a year), Hold a white belt in Kobujitsu (was green belt but stopped 6 years ago and just started again), and doing knife fighting from Amok and Systema and Eskrido. (yes I train to much I know heheh)
> 
> Ive been in the MA since I was 6 and hold various colour ranks in Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, Ninjitsu, Capoeira, Shotokan and Goju Ryu Karate and have had experience in Boxing and Kick Boxing.
> 
> Yours inMA LIONHEART


Which color rank do you hold in capoeira?  Which group?  Just curious.


----------



## Kamaria Annina

I've been in TKD for about two years.  I had to leave temporaliy because of academics.  I started attending class again, and now I am a high blue belt, I'll be testing for my red in September.


----------



## TigerWoman

Welcome, Kamaria Annina, to the forum,  I have learned alot since I got on this board. Its interesting to learn more about the other arts, other practitioners, as well as Taekwondo.  My daughter, has a friend studying Taekwondo in Colorado. She just got her black belt late last year. You are in a hard work time--not that it gets any easier! Keep up the good work! See ya 'around. If you have any questions you can PM me and I'll try to answer them or PM the moderator below, or post your question in the "Support" area.    TW


----------



## Shogun

I went to a TKD class last night. The instructor is moving more towards a "stand-up fighting" style. He also teaches BJJ. He is a 4th degree black belt in TKD and a brown belt in BJJ.


cheers,
KE


----------



## Marginal

Huh? TKD is a stand up style. If you're flopping around on the floor, that ain't TKD.


----------



## jfarnsworth

Good post Marginal.


----------



## JayK

Hi guys... new here.

I train in AIMAA style taekwondo, and I'm a second degree black belt. Been training for about 6 years now... also trained in Shotokan Karate for about 3 yrs too...





			
				Marginal said:
			
		

> Huh? TKD is a stand up style. If you're flopping around on the floor, that ain't TKD.


We incorporate grappling into our style. Mainly BJJ techniques. Only last week I was 'flopping' around the floor in class.


----------



## Marginal

There's a difference between hosin sul and "moving towards a stand up style" which implies that they mainly wrestle.


----------



## sifu nick

I study the Gen. Choi style of TKD and have for many (lost count) years. I am currently a Black Belt and an instructor at my school. Ours is an independent school with a combined system including aikido,judo,ju-jitsu for self defense with many students competing nationally in sport karate (NASKA, KRANE, NBL) tournaments.


----------



## MichiganTKD

Nick,

If you are a Tae Kwon Do instructor, why do you use the term "sifu" which is a Chinese word for Instructor? What, do you practice Chinese Tae Kwon Do?


----------



## blackbeltedbeauty

I'm a 1st degree in ITF taekwondo. I started at 13 and have been in it almost 5 yrs. :btg: <---- what tkd is good for


----------



## TigerWoman

blackbeltedbeauty said:
			
		

> I'm a 1st degree in ITF taekwondo. I started at 13 and have been in it almost 5 yrs. :btg: <---- what tkd is good for



Hi BBB, welcome to the board. As you can see there are alot of us here in Taekwondo but not as many as the Kenpo contingent.  Congrats on your 1st dan black belt.  I hope you continue martial arts throughout your life.  Remember I said that.  I have a 17 yr. old son and a 20 yr. old daughter. Just the daughter wants to continue---so far. TW


----------



## Hwoarang_tkd26

Hi evryone.
I have been practicing TKD for 7 years (ages 11-18), actually longer than that if you want to count the one year I started at age 7-8 making it to green belt.
When I came back at 11 I started over at white belt and have been there ever since, Im am now a 2nd dan and in about 10 months can test for my 3rd.
I am under the World TaeKwonDo Federation (WTF).
I plan to continue my TKD for the rest of my life, my goal is to eventually make it to 9th dan if I can (well ultimatly 10th dan, becuase we all know that if you have a 9th you are promised a 10th)

- Hwoarang_tkd26


----------



## Klondike93

Wasn't aware that TKD started promoting past 9th   


 :supcool:


----------



## Hwoarang_tkd26

Klondike93 said:
			
		

> Wasn't aware that TKD started promoting past 9th
> 
> 
> :supcool:


lol, 9th is the highest you can abtain while you are alive, if you are a 9th dan then once you die you are given a 10th

- Hwoarang_tkd26


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Hwoarang_tkd26 said:
			
		

> lol, 9th is the highest you can abtain while you are alive, if you are a 9th dan then once you die you are given a 10th
> 
> - Hwoarang_tkd26




You have to die, first?  MAN.  What some people will do to get promoted.

Have they no shame?



Regards,


Steve


----------



## Hwoarang_tkd26

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> You have to die, first? MAN. What some people will do to get promoted.
> 
> Have they no shame?
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Steve


lol, hahaha!!
Oh my heck, I thought that this was something that everone knew.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but this is what I have been taught all along, or maybe this is how it is done traditionaly, I dunno:idunno: .
Is there anyone else in here that knows this?

- Hwoarang_tkd26


----------



## Klondike93

Well, I don't recall when General Choi died they promoted him to 10th, but I haven't looked lately so they might have. 


 :supcool:


----------



## jakmak52

*Martial Arts **Curriculum Vitae*​






James (Jack) Makinson​
3018 59th Street South​
#406​
Gulfport, Florida 33707​
​
​DOB: 11/20/1952 Birthplace: Chicago, Illinois Age: 51



Style: ITF Tae Kwon Do Started: 11/10/93



School/Dojo: USA Karate - St. Petersburg, Florida



Instructors: 

John Graden 7th Dan

Kathy Marlor 5th Dan

Brent Boyer 2nd Dan

Glenn Laplante 3rd Dan

Joe Lewis 10th Dan

Bill "Superfoot" Wallace 

Dr. Neil Shiesske (Kareja Do) 10th Dan

Dr. Jason Hunt (AMAU) 6th Dan



Rank Advancement:

Gold Belt: 02/03/94

Orange Belt: 05/18/94

Green Belt: 09/21/94

Blue Belt: 01/20/95

Red Belt: 04/12/95

Brown Belt: 09/15/95
Black Belt - 1st Degree (Cho-Dan): 06/20/04


Competitions/Tournaments:





1999 PMTA Gold Tour, Orlando, Florida - 1st Place - Executive Men's Classical Forms



1999 US Open, Orlando Florida - 1st Place - Executive Men's Forms



2003 5th Annual Suncoast Open, Clearwater, Florida - 1st Place - Executive Men's Forms



2004 GSO Open Bradenton, Florida - 1st Place - Executive Men's Traditional Forms



2005 US Open, Orlando, Florida - 6th Place  Executive Mens Black Belt Traditional Forms



Martial Arts affiliations:



AMAU (American Martial Arts Union) Dr. Jason Hunt

Kareja Do (Dr. Neal Schiesske)

World Black Belt Bureau


----------



## jakmak52

I believe Mr. Joe Lewis is alive and a 10th Dan , at least he was last week when I saw him at the dojo 


http://www.joelewiskarate.com/joe-lewis/index.asp


----------



## Miles

jakmak52 said:
			
		

> I believe Mr. Joe Lewis is alive and a 10th Dan , at least he was last week when I saw him at the dojo
> 
> 
> http://www.joelewiskarate.com/joe-lewis/index.asp


I don't think Joe Lewis is a Taekwondoin though.

Me: 29 yrs training, 5th dan


----------



## TigerWoman

Miles said:
			
		

> I don't think Joe Lewis is a Taekwondoin though.
> 
> Me: 29 yrs training, 5th dan



Glad to see another master here, we can certainly use your experience! TW


----------



## BrandiJo

iv been in it about 9 months and im orange belt and the end of this week hopefully high orange


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Miles said:
			
		

> I don't think Joe Lewis is a Taekwondoin though.
> 
> Me: 29 yrs training, 5th dan




Nope.  Okinawan roots.  From the web site:

_Lewis began his training in Okinawa studying with three instructors: Eizo Shimabuku, Kinjo Chinsaku and Seiyu Oyata and he also studied with the late great Bruce Lee. He received his Black Belt in Shorin Ryu and studied several different styles. He never believed in "style" to him they were all the same..."punching and kicking."_

I recall reading he got his black belt in nine months.  Before taking umbrage to this, remember that on Okie you either drink, or workout.  Lewis obviously worked out.  This is similar to Chuck Norris, who got his black belt in Tang Soo Do in 13 months at Osan air base in Korea.  He trained five hours a day, six days a week.  What else was there to do at Osan?



Regards,


Steve


----------



## Miles

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Glad to see another master here, we can certainly use your experience! TW


Thanks for the welcome TW, but the only person who calls me master is my grandmaster, and only when I am in trouble:>)  I am just a student who has been around longer than some.

Take Care,

Miles


----------



## Miles

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Nope. Okinawan roots. From the web site:
> 
> _Lewis began his training in Okinawa studying with three instructors: Eizo Shimabuku, Kinjo Chinsaku and Seiyu Oyata and he also studied with the late great Bruce Lee. He received his Black Belt in Shorin Ryu and studied several different styles. He never believed in "style" to him they were all the same..."punching and kicking."_
> 
> I recall reading he got his black belt in nine months. Before taking umbrage to this, remember that on Okie you either drink, or workout. Lewis obviously worked out. This is similar to Chuck Norris, who got his black belt in Tang Soo Do in 13 months at Osan air base in Korea. He trained five hours a day, six days a week. >>
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> I didn't think Joe Lewis studied TKD.  I have a friend who has worked out with him and says he is phenomenal.  I hope to be in his shape at 60.
> 
> I don't take umbrage.  I don't look at a black belt as being a mystical achievement, just an important step along a life-long journey.
> 
> Take Care,
> 
> Miles


----------



## RanaHarmamelda

1st Dan in an independent WTF-based TKD club -- college club. Did the Taeguk forms, only modified -- no walking stances (all changed to front stances), minor things like that.

Moved schools, joined an American Chung Do Kwan TKD Association (ACTA) school, got up to...3rd gyup, I think? Then dropped out for several reasons.

Currently training my original TKD system on my own, but have switched away from TKD, mostly. 

Oh, crap -- almost forgot time/ages -- started at 19 (1999) in the first system, stayed with it for 3 years before moving to the other, stayed with that for 1 year, have been practicing on my own since.


----------



## pakua

I didn't read this whole thread- it got a bit repetitive and personal.

But can someone explain TKD rankings to me please? Especially, what's _poom_.

In the school where my kids train Yushinkai Kobujutsu, there's no black belt before age 16. (Not sure what happens then- my son's only 11- but I think they keep the black belt in the adult class. May be wrong on that.) On the face of it, I can't see the sense in a 8 1/2 year old with a black belt as mentioned earlier.

I loved the comment somewhere above to the effect of _ or their parents want them to get black belts_. That says a lot to me.... you see parents in all sports re-living their youth from the touchlines. Only time a parent's allowed in our dojo is the last session before the Christmas shutdown- hey, you have to see what you're paying for sometime!


----------



## pakua

Klondike93 said:
			
		

> it looks like a bunch of people falling down all the time



Ah, pub-night in the Klondike again....


----------



## pakua

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> You have to die, first?  MAN.  What some people will do to get promoted.



Are natural causes ok or do you have to get kia in the dojo?


----------



## Hwoarang_tkd26

pakua said:
			
		

> I didn't read this whole thread- it got a bit repetitive and personal.
> 
> But can someone explain TKD rankings to me please? Especially, what's _poom_.
> 
> In the school where my kids train Yushinkai Kobujutsu, there's no black belt before age 16. (Not sure what happens then- my son's only 11- but I think they keep the black belt in the adult class. May be wrong on that.) On the face of it, I can't see the sense in a 8 1/2 year old with a black belt as mentioned earlier.
> 
> I loved the comment somewhere above to the effect of _or their parents want them to get black belts_. That says a lot to me.... you see parents in all sports re-living their youth from the touchlines. Only time a parent's allowed in our dojo is the last session before the Christmas shutdown- hey, you have to see what you're paying for sometime!


Yes, My school does this too, with the poom belts.
Ok, from my understanding about the poom belt is that it is more or less to show respect to the elder black belts.
It more or less shows that they are still very young, and they still have a very long way till they meet there destination. A 1st dan poom belt is still equivelent to a 1st dan black belt, it's just that it is not a "BLACK" belt.

That is of course how I understand the perpose of the poom belt.


			
				pakua said:
			
		

> Are natural causes ok or do you have to get kia in the dojo?


Well, as far as I undersand, you have to be a 9th dan then "WHEN" you die (it doesnt matter how) you get promotted to 10th dan automaticly.
This is what I have been taught all along, I am very serprised to here that no-one knows of this. (note, I do believe that this only aplies to TKD)

- Hwoarang_tkd26


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Hwoarang_tkd26 said:
			
		

> Well, as far as I undersand, you have to be a 9th dan then "WHEN" you die (it doesnt matter how) you get promotted to 10th dan automaticly.
> This is what I have been taught all along, I am very serprised to here that no-one knows of this. (note, I do believe that this only aplies to TKD)
> 
> - Hwoarang_tkd26




I'm not allowed to die until I get ninth dan?  I better start eating better and taking my aspirin a day.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Hwoarang_tkd26

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I'm not allowed to die until I get ninth dan? I better start eating better and taking my aspirin a day.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Steve


Lol, hahaha.
oh come on, you know what I meant


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Yes, I did...but I so burned myself out discussing serious issues (it being an election year) I find it difficult to be anything but flip.  Its the only way I can recharge my dopamine levels.  That and meds, of course.

Regards,


Steve


----------



## MichiganTKD

Poom is the rank given by many WTF schools to young students who have met all of the requirements of Dan testing but are too young to be considered adult black belts. This includes forms, sparring, breaking, and time spent in Tae Kwon Do. Our organization does not issue pooms. Within reasonable age limits, black belt is black belt if the requirements are met.

Also, Tae Kwon Do has no 10th Degree. If someone claims 10th Dan, they are a liar. Or it is strictly honorary. Otherwise 9th Dan is bestowed on someone who has spent their life practicing, teaching, and promoting Tae Kwon Do. There are, by definition, not many of them. I think the WTF has fewer than 20 worldwide.
Be very wary of someone who claims 9th Dan but is not a member of any recognized organization, or claims 9th or 10th Dan in an organization they founded.


----------



## Gizmo

According to the database available on the Kukkiwon website, there are 263 9th Dan holders worldwide (212 of them in Korea) and five 10th Dan holders (stand from December 2002).

One of the things that really make me upset is the fact that there are over 14000 (yes fourteen thousand) kids who were awarded 4th Poom. To be honest, I can't figure out how a kid can receive what is in fact an equivalent of 4th degree black belt...

World's gone crazy...

Gizmo


----------



## Disco

That's only ONE of the reasons why todays TKD is looked down upon.


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Anyway, mostly for people looking and perhaps joining us....please list yourself, your rank, years in, when you joined Taekwondo, please.
> 
> artyon:



Well, back to the question at hand...
Me, I'm a first dan WTF BLACK. I've only been training for the past 5 years. There's is still so, so much to learn, but I never get enough and enjoy practicing our Art tremendously. I hope to continue training for a long time. TKD Kicks!
 :asian:


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Gizmo said:
			
		

> According to the database available on the Kukkiwon website, there are 263 9th Dan holders worldwide (212 of them in Korea) and five 10th Dan holders (stand from December 2002).
> 
> One of the things that really make me upset is the fact that there are over 14000 (yes fourteen thousand) kids who were awarded 4th Poom. To be honest, I can't figure out how a kid can receive what is in fact an equivalent of 4th degree black belt...
> 
> World's gone crazy...
> 
> Gizmo




AND there are all those Korean "ninth dans" in the U.S. who don't hold a Kukkiwon certificate.  There is at least one in every major city in the U.S., I'd wager.  All of them, it seems, were either national champions, were coaches of national teams, trained Korean Special Forces, were in the Special Forces, were bodyguards to the President of Korea, trained the National Police...or all of the above.  Did I miss anything?


Regards,


Steve


----------



## bignick

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> AND there are all those Korean "ninth dans" in the U.S. who don't hold a Kukkiwon certificate. There is at least one in every major city in the U.S., I'd wager. All of them, it seems, were either national champions, were coaches of national teams, trained Korean Special Forces, were in the Special Forces, were bodyguards to the President of Korea, trained the National Police...or all of the above. Did I miss anything?


nope...you got most of the major points...


----------



## Miles

Gizmo said:
			
		

> According to the database available on the Kukkiwon website, there are 263 9th Dan holders worldwide (212 of them in Korea) and five 10th Dan holders (stand from December 2002).
> 
> One of the things that really make me upset is the fact that there are over 14000 (yes fourteen thousand) kids who were awarded 4th Poom. To be honest, I can't figure out how a kid can receive what is in fact an equivalent of 4th degree black belt...
> 
> World's gone crazy...
> 
> Gizmo


Gizmo, the world has not gone crazy.

I was told this past Summer by Kim, Byung Sung, the International Division Director of the Kukkiwon that there have been 5 10th dans issued by Kukkiwon.  Dr. Kim is the only 10th dan who is still alive.

Don't be upset by the use of the poom ranking.  Pooms are expected to perform physically the same material as an adult.  The poom means the student has the requisite physical aspects, he/she just has not had enough life experience to be a dan holder.

Now, how can there be 14,000 4th pooms?  Pretty easy when you train in TKD nearly daily from age 5 and take the examination after age 15 but before age 18.

Miles


----------



## Miles

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Poom is the rank given by many WTF schools to young students who have met all of the requirements of Dan testing but are too young to be considered adult black belts. This includes forms, sparring, breaking, and time spent in Tae Kwon Do. Our organization does not issue pooms. Within reasonable age limits, black belt is black belt if the requirements are met..


MichiganTKD,

At what age does your organization issue black belts?

If, to paraphrase you,the young students have met all the requirements of Dan testing, why not issue a poom? (this is exactly what the poom rank represents)

Miles


----------



## TigerWoman

I was at a tournament this weekend.  There was a 7 year old 1st dan. Her father was the owner/instructor of the school.  Also 1st dan.  She competed in the grand championship, did an axe kick on one board.  If all had missed though she would have won. In the prior contest, the way we judged breaking was that if someone missed their break, they get a point deducted, if missed all (3 for kids) a 5.  In that category, most missed- 4-7 age group. 

So, I figure if she started at age 4, she would possible get black at 8 under our time requirement.  But also, we don't delineate responsibility.  So, hypothetically if she was the only BB who showed up for our new "family" class in our school (she's in a different school though), she would be the instructor for the class.!!!  I think really, our youngest is age 10, but even that age I don't agree giving a BB and therefore responsibility.  The youngest BB I have seen instruct a class was a 15 yr. old in our school but that was before these "family" classes.  Now none of the BB's or higher rank are coming, because these classes are 90% white belt and the class is catered to them.  But the master occasionally misses, so the highest BB, is the instructor.  Should be interesting when none (BB's) show up for evening classes.  TW


----------



## MichiganTKD

Miles said:
			
		

> MichiganTKD,
> 
> At what age does your organization issue black belts?
> 
> If, to paraphrase you,the young students have met all the requirements of Dan testing, why not issue a poom? (this is exactly what the poom rank represents)
> 
> Miles


Good question. I think the youngest the Instructors would accept granting a 1st Dan is 10 years old, and he better be exceptional. We don't grant pooms because our Grandmaster feels that if the requirements are met, 1st Dan is 1st Dan. We don't do everything the WTF says. Technically, a 17 year old could be considered for 4th Dan or poom. I doubt if we would ever have a Master Instructor that young. The other Masters would never accept it.


----------



## Disco

Originally Posted by hardheadjarhead
AND there are all those Korean "ninth dans" in the U.S. who don't hold a Kukkiwon certificate. There is at least one in every major city in the U.S., I'd wager. All of them, it seems, were either national champions, were coaches of national teams, trained Korean Special Forces, were in the Special Forces, were bodyguards to the President of Korea, trained the National Police...or all of the above. Did I miss anything? 

Most likely, those are the one's who started their own kwans. Perhaps they are even some with the infamous "Airport Promotions". It's easy for someone not of American origin to start their own. We westerners just accept, it's called eastern mystic syndrome. The thing that befuddles me is that people can't see the forest for the trees. Almost everybody is against having young black belts in general, but look who instituted the program. It was the one's who brought the discipline to America in the first place. It's called the retirement fund. Kind of hard to blame them in a way, they just gave out what the consumer wanted and the heck with so called ethics and martial arts integrity.


----------



## MichiganTKD

In my area (Ypsilanti), there is at least one Instructor who claims 9th Dan in the organization he founded. Kwan heads are probably going to be or at least claim 9th Dan. However, it is also common for Instructors to found an organization that may or may not be affiliated with a larger organization, then claim 9th Dan in that organization (the one they founded). Very easy way to weasel a high rank. Claim to have founded an organization that only your school belongs to, then claim 9th Dan in that organization. Along with the other examples Disco mentioned.


----------



## Homy

1st dan Black. will have been black for 2 years (in december)and able to go for 2nd dan(though i wont be..to much time spent instructing others and not enough time on my own stuff)
started january 2000

Our club gives 'kids BB' but theyre on a slightly different criteria to the adults.
when they are 16(and able/willing) they may sit for their proper BB
so i guess its kinda like a poom.Although they're unable to go any higher in the dans until they are adults


----------



## TigerWoman

Homy said:
			
		

> 1st dan Black. will have been black for 2 years (in december)and able to go for 2nd dan(though i wont be..to much time spent instructing others and not enough time on my own stuff)
> started january 2000



So, you only spent two years getting to 1st Dan Black?  I went sometimes eight times a week and was a blue belt at two years. I tested for 1st dan at 4 years and I was right on schedule. Also,  WTF, ITF style or what style?  
TW


----------



## Sarah

Homy, it cant have been only 2yrs! Did you do some serious double gradings or something?

You need to get training so you can go for your 2nd Dan, do we get to see you grade? I would so love to be there!





			
				Homy said:
			
		

> 1st dan Black. will have been black for 2 years (in december)and able to go for 2nd dan(though i wont be..to much time spent instructing others and not enough time on my own stuff)
> started january 2000
> 
> Our club gives 'kids BB' but theyre on a slightly different criteria to the adults.
> when they are 16(and able/willing) they may sit for their proper BB
> so i guess its kinda like a poom.Although they're unable to go any higher in the dans until they are adults


----------



## Zepp

Homy said:
			
		

> 1st dan Black. will have been black for 2 years (in december)and able to go for 2nd dan(though i wont be..to much time spent instructing others and not enough time on my own stuff)
> started january 2000



Re-reading Homy's post, it sounds more like he has been a black belt for 2 years.  Although, 2 years is a pretty short time to to go from 1st to 2nd.  Waiting a little longer is probably a good idea.  

My instructor's been hinting that he would like me to test for my 2nd dan sometime next summer, which will have been about 3 years since my last test.  I'm feeling kind of iffy about it at this point, but it's not like I have to decide anytime soon.

By the way, welcome to the board Homy.


----------



## TigerWoman

Zepp, just curious  What is your breaking requirements for 2nd? TW


----------



## Zepp

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Zepp, just curious  What is your breaking requirements for 2nd? TW



Grandmaster Son requires us to be able to break four 1"-thick boards 2 different ways; one with hands/arms, and the other with a kick.  As I've said before, for us, breaking isn't considered to be especially important.  It's mostly just a measure of our confidence and our willingness to hit something that doesn't give way as easily as a pad or bag.  :asian:


----------



## TigerWoman

Well, both of those aren't easy but I would trade you. I would do that 4 board kick one in a jump back on my good leg/knee and probably a palm strike for the other. Alot of wood gone fast. Fast and painless. sigh! TW


----------



## Zepp

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Well, both of those aren't easy but I would trade you.



No thanks, I've read your posts about your breaking requirements.


----------



## Aqua4ever

I'm yellow striped (yellow belt with black stripe) and been in tkd since Feb 04


----------



## Homy

...err no it was 3 years to black belt..id done a bit of karate and kickboxing before i started
yeah it was super fast...tripple graded to yellow belt green tip for my first grading - double graded to green belt blue tip - double graded again to blue belt red tip - red - red black tip - black
6 months between gradings..
i can imagine what some of you may be thinking..."token belts, easy gradings..bla bla"...well i can tell you it was all legit..i worked my *** off , and spent most of my training time with higher belts so i could leech their brains of anything they could give me...and it all stuck in there
no one at out club has done it that quickly before or since....but i really leeched the highter belts as i said and absolutely loved gradings...just went fulll bore for the whole things...now i really miss them...only get to watch and mark others .... na thats cool too like instructing its just a whole new aspect to my addiction

the normal time to black belt at my club is 4 1/2 - 5 years..but normal is what other people do..:jedi1: 

No sarah ...you wont get to see our 2nd degree gradings(closed grading)
but you seem to be sneeky with that camera so..?..hehe

our stlye is only TKD based (our 2 head instructors trained under Willie Lim)
but when he left NZ they worked on developing a more realistic and varied martial art/self defence form.
we now incorporate aspects from a multitude including 
Tai Chi,Balintawak,judo,JJ,Muay Tai
but our grading system ,forms(Hyungs), Basics etc are TKD founded

bla bla
Yeah thanks for the welcome...glad to be here


----------



## Gizmo

Miles said:
			
		

> Don't be upset by the use of the poom ranking.  Pooms are expected to perform physically the same material as an adult.  The poom means the student has the requisite physical aspects, he/she just has not had enough life experience to be a dan holder.
> 
> Now, how can there be 14,000 4th pooms?  Pretty easy when you train in TKD nearly daily from age 5 and take the examination after age 15 but before age 18.
> 
> Miles



I have no problem with Poom ranks. My students who pass the Dan grading before they are 15 also wear Poom belts. So far, only one in the history of my school managed to fulfill the requirements for 2nd Poom. I never had anyone wearing 3rd Poom and I don't suppose there will be anyone.

I have a serious problem with 4th Pooms since no matter how many hours and years of practice, kids are still kids. I met several Korean kids wearing 2nd and 3rd Pooms and was dissapointed to say the least. Their level of technical proficiency was lower than the European 1st Pooms I know. 4th degree black belt for me is either a very seasoned senior competitor or an instructor with several years experience. Therefore I feel that awarding an equivalent of 4th Dan to a kid aged 15 is cheapening the value of the grade.

Gizmo


----------



## Miles

Gizmo said:
			
		

> I have no problem with Poom ranks. My students who pass the Dan grading before they are 15 also wear Poom belts. So far, only one in the history of my school managed to fulfill the requirements for 2nd Poom. I never had anyone wearing 3rd Poom and I don't suppose there will be anyone.
> 
> I have a serious problem with 4th Pooms since no matter how many hours and years of practice, kids are still kids. I met several Korean kids wearing 2nd and 3rd Pooms and was dissapointed to say the least. Their level of technical proficiency was lower than the European 1st Pooms I know. 4th degree black belt for me is either a very seasoned senior competitor or an instructor with several years experience. Therefore I feel that awarding an equivalent of 4th Dan to a kid aged 15 is cheapening the value of the grade.
> 
> Gizmo


Kids are still kids.   That's why they wear the poom belt not a black belt.  The poor technical proficiency of those kids you mentioned is due to a bad instructor, not to a bad kid.

You mentioned 4th degree is a "very seasoned senior competitor or an instructor with several years experience."  Do you give credit towards rank for competition?  Do you have teaching requirements for rank advancement?  Since I asked the question, I will also provide answers: yes before poom/black belt to the former, and yes to black belts in the latter.

Thanks for your response!

Miles


----------



## Gizmo

Of course kids are still kids. But it doesn't mean they have to wear 4th degree black belt (or black-red, whatever). Just to make it clear, I have no problem with the whole idea of Poom belts. It's just a number of those junior grades I don't like. To me, 1st Poom for a good young martial artist is OK, 2nd Poom for an exceptional one as well. I still have to meet a kid deserving 3rd or 4th Poom in my opinion. As for the Korean kids I mentioned, they were fantastic kids, but only mediocre Taekwondoists. And you're right, it's not their fold, it's the instructor's. But somebody promoted them to their grades, and since they were Koreans, living in Korea, I'm pretty sure that the testing was according to the Kukkiwon guidelines, which somehow don't impress me anymore. This is what I call lowering the standards.

Yes, the tournament participation and teaching is taken into consideration at our gradings. In both cases it's not a prerequisite however.

Best regards

Gizmo


----------



## Miles

Gizmo said:
			
		

> Of course kids are still kids. But it doesn't mean they have to wear 4th degree black belt (or black-red, whatever). Just to make it clear, I have no problem with the whole idea of Poom belts. It's just a number of those junior grades I don't like. To me, 1st Poom for a good young martial artist is OK, 2nd Poom for an exceptional one as well. I still have to meet a kid deserving 3rd or 4th Poom in my opinion. As for the Korean kids I mentioned, they were fantastic kids, but only mediocre Taekwondoists. And you're right, it's not their fold, it's the instructor's. But somebody promoted them to their grades, and since they were Koreans, living in Korea, I'm pretty sure that the testing was according to the Kukkiwon guidelines, which somehow don't impress me anymore. This is what I call lowering the standards.
> 
> Yes, the tournament participation and teaching is taken into consideration at our gradings. In both cases it's not a prerequisite however.
> 
> Gizmo


Thanks for your response Gizmo.

You do seem to have a problem with a poom higher than 2nd.  That's fine as it is your perogative as the instructor.  My overall point is that if a child has met the physical requirements, they are entitled to the poom equivalent.  They can't be a black belt due to age (which brings with it the necessary life experiences).

The Kukkiwon guidelines are minimums.  You can demand more from your students (as do I).  Again, I see it as the instructor's fault, not the student's if the instructor recommended the student for a rank to which he/she was not entitled.

Miles


----------



## Gizmo

That's exactly my point. Therefore I saw no use in introducing 4th Poom as I personally felt that this will be a "commercial" grade. 

We don't follow the Kukkiwon guidelines nor do we take part in the tests conducted by Kukkiwon examiner here anymore. Hovewer, since Kukki-TKD used to be our main avenue of practice for several years and we still occasionally do compete in Olympic style events, I'm still interested in what's going on in the WTF/Kukkiwon world as I have many friends there.

Regards

Gizmo


----------



## *sic

ok well personally my training began mid 1997, graded through and got my black December 2000 so Homy got his 6 months quicker.. bastard.  have been training on and off since then completing my BSc, so training has had to take a unfortunate sideline : / as it does...uggh.

but, i would like to complete my 2nd dan sometime in 2005, its about time, so its going to be all about training...finally.


Anyways its been great so far and im looking forward to alot more training in the future, I am also currently thinking about various other arts i would like to pursue, but we will see.


----------



## Homy

*sic said:
			
		

> ...but, i would like to complete my 2nd dan sometime in 2005, its about time, so its going to be all about training...finally. .


Yay....someone to train with...
not saying Ad-ram isnt cool to train with(he is)..just he cant go 4 2nd till the end of next year  
(not to mention hes been spending way too much time in the garden)
Hello Aether


----------



## Raewyn

Homy said:
			
		

> Yay....someone to train with...
> not saying Ad-ram isnt cool to train with(he is)..just he cant go 4 2nd till the end of next year
> (not to mention hes been spending way too much time in the garden)
> Hello Aether


 





Spending too much time in the garden??????????????????  Would'nt have picked him for the gardening type!!!!!     lol


 http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS


----------



## *sic

Raisin said:
			
		

> Spending too much time in the garden??????????????????  Would'nt have picked him for the gardening type!!!!!     lol
> 
> 
> http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZS



he is all about the garden, its peacefull and enhances training....
 :asian:


----------



## Homy

midnight gardening...such sacrifice just to feed the plants...


----------



## TigerWoman

I hope we get the chat room soon...this thread is really about who's Taekwondo so that new people joining would know who's who.  Maybe you'all could start a gardening thread in the locker room?  Thanks TW


----------



## terryl965

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I hope we get the chat room soon...this thread is really about who's Taekwondo so that new people joining would know who's who. Maybe you'all could start a gardening thread in the locker room? Thanks TW


I agree


----------



## dosandojang

5th Dan Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do

3rd Dan Kuk Ki Won

started in 1974' under Chuck Norris, Sang K. Sa, Yong Kim, Young Ik Han, Hee Il Cho and Kyu Ha Cho.


----------



## terryl965

pretty impressive stuff


----------



## jfarnsworth

I was thinking the same thing. 
artyon:


----------



## dosandojang

Thanks.


http://www.geocities.com/dosanmartialartsschool/ 
http://home.rconnect.com/~simmudo/members.html 
http://www.masterssite.com/images/MtrArce.gif


----------



## jfarnsworth

How do you get to align yourself with such prominent instructors?  :asian:


----------



## dosandojang

I have been LUCKY!  Plus I live in a great area for the Greats...Los Angeles, CA., USA! Norris, Cho, Han, all of these are rooted in the LA area. I was just fortunate enough to attend their schools!


----------



## terryl965

dosandojang said:
			
		

> I have been LUCKY!  Plus I live in a great area for the Greats...Los Angeles, CA., USA! Norris, Cho, Han, all of these are rooted in the LA area. I was just fortunate enough to attend their schools!


Do you ever go south to see Grand Master Jimmy Kim or Master Combe. I was tought under Jin Kim in Huntington Beach back in the 80's early, before that was tought Okinawa karate under my Father W.R. Stoker Sr.


----------



## 40+TKDLee

Hello All,

  I am WTF 1st Gup (plan is to test for 1st Dan in July 2005), my dojang is Action Arts Academy of Poquoson, Virginia.  I have been studying since 2001.

Pilsung!


----------



## Miles

40+TKDLee said:
			
		

> Hello All,
> 
> I am WTF 1st Gup (plan is to test for 1st Dan in July 2005), my dojang is Action Arts Academy of Poquoson, Virginia. I have been studying since 2001.
> 
> Pilsung!


Welcome to MT.  What are you doing to prepare for your test?

Miles


----------



## dmj

I'm 4th dan, started in 1977,so I guess @ 27 years.:bow:


----------



## FearlessFreep

Um, I'm an orange belt (our school goes white, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, red, brown, black)  I've been doing it for about 6th months and I test for yellow belt sometime in the next few weeks


----------



## Miles

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Um, I'm an orange belt (our school goes white, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, red, brown, black) I've been doing it for about 6th months and I test for yellow belt sometime in the next few weeks


Good Luck!

What are you doing to prepare for your test?

Miles


----------



## FearlessFreep

_Good Luck!_

Thanks

_What are you doing to prepare for your test?_

Nothing special, really.  I view the belts and tests and such as more like mileage markers along the road than as goals in there own right.  I'm constantly trying to make myself better than I was the day before so I don't really single out anything particular to do to prepare for testing because in my mind it's important to be as good as I can be in everything I've been trained in; some of which I won't be tested on yet, or ever.  The test will come and I pray I will be ready for it because I'm good enough to be at that level, not just because I prepared for the test specifically


----------



## Miles

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> Nothing special, really. I view the belts and tests and such as more like mileage markers along the road than as goals in there own right. I'm constantly trying to make myself better than I was the day before .....


Jay,

That was a wonderful answer (though internally inconsistent, but that's a matter of perspective too).  You say "nothing special" but then you are trying to improve yourself one day at a time.  That is the key and it IS special since many folks just "practice", they don't "train."

Good Luck!

Miles


----------



## TigerWoman

Bump, maybe we could have a sticky on this?  TW


----------



## kik

Miles said:
			
		

> Jay,
> 
> That was a wonderful answer (though internally inconsistent, but that's a matter of perspective too). You say "nothing special" but then you are trying to improve yourself one day at a time. That is the key and it IS special since many folks just "practice", they don't "train."
> 
> Good Luck!
> 
> I myself don't see the difference, When I practice I practice all aspects of TKD, So I don't train for a promotion I Practice what has already been taught to me. I do however train for a tourny. So that I may be stronger, faster and more articulate in my motions so that I may someday bring home the gold.


----------



## IcemanSK

I'm a second dan (1st dan Kukkiwon, 2nd dan ITF). I've been training for 24 years. (Long story that I shared too many times here before).


----------



## Kacey

IV Dan, Ch'ang H'on TKD, 19 years


----------



## zDom

I started formal training in taekwondo in March 1991 at Moo Sul Kwan, founded by a Chang Moo Kwan grandmaster, Lee H. Park.

Chon-ji, Taeguek 1-8, Chung Moo and Koryo required forms.

Other ITF forms between Chon Ji and Chung Moo were optional. I practiced both ITF and WTF forms till blue belt, then dropped practicing ITFs (was too much, considering I was also doing hapkido. I decided I'd rather get more repetition in on the required WTF forms).

1st Dan, MSK, March 1995. Nam Suk Lee was at the test.

Couple of months later, took a break for almost two years, resumed training TKD.

2nd Dan, U.S. Chung Do Kwan, May 2000. GMs Ed and Brenda Sell sat on the testing panel.

Retired from TKD to resume hapkido training -- wish I could retire to a life of martial arts and do both.


----------



## Kwan Jang

I am now in my 30th year of TKD and have earned a 6th dan under KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr.


----------



## matt.m

I took Tae Kwon Do for a year and earned my orange belt.  I had to take a year and a half off for injuries.  I began again this past March, I tested for green in July and passed.  I am now working towards blue belt.


----------



## FredQ

4th Dan Black Belt,27 years.


Fred


----------



## karatekid1975

December will be 5 years total in TKD for me. I'm just a 1st gup, cause I changed dojangs three times. I finally found a TKD dojang I like (ITF). I did WTF for a year. TKD MDK for a year. Back to WTF for two and a half. Now ITF since June of this year.


----------



## exile

Hello to all---

I just joined MartialTalk a few days ago and this seems a good thread to introduce myself on. I've been doing TKD for the past two and a half years, am 59 years old and a brown belt in Columbus, Ohio under Allen Shirley, fifth dan Kukkiwon certified, whose instructional lineage is Song Moo Kwan.  I know---if that's the right word!---who many of you are, because I `lurked' on the MT TKD site for about four months before signing up last week and have read pretty much every thread that's been posted here. So I have already learned much from you folks and hope to learn much more.


----------



## Kwan Jang

It's a really small world. I have also just joined MT and I was one of Mr. Shirley's judges on his testing board when he tested for 3rd dan under Greg.


----------



## exile

It's a really small world. I have also just joined MT and I was one of Mr. Shirley's judges on his testing board when he tested for 3rd dan under Greg.


Whoa---small indeed [`Twilight Zone' theme playing in the background]. That would have been a few years back, yes, Kwan Jang? Where are you these days?


----------



## Kwan Jang

That was July 2000. It was my first time on a test board as a full Kwan Jang Nim. Mr. Shirley was the only one testing for 3rd while my student, Allen Clark (who just got 4th in June), Romy, Tess, and Anna tested for 2nd. Apparently, Mr.Shirley had some type of falling out w/ Greg, which I don't know the details of (nor is it any of my business), but I've only seen him once since then. About two years ago, we were both at Keith Anderson's tournament in Cinncinattito support Keith. At first, I didn't even recognize Allen because his appearance had changed so much.

I'm still running my school just outside of Nashville, but each year I come up and help the Ohio schools run their black belt test. Say hello to your instructor for me. I didn't get to know hiim that well, but from my viewpoint, I was always impressed by him both as a martial artist and as a person.


----------



## exile

That was July 2000. It was my first time on a test board as a full Kwan Jang Nim. Mr. Shirley was the only one testing for 3rd while my student, Allen Clark (who just got 4th in June), Romy, Tess, and Anna tested for 2nd. Apparently, Mr.Shirley had some type of falling out w/ Greg, which I don't know the details of (nor is it any of my business), but I've only seen him once since then. 

Hi KJ---yes, I know about that, but no details. One doesn't like to pry, eh? 

>About two years ago, we were both at Keith Anderson's tournament in >Cinncinattito support Keith. At first, I didn't even recognize Allen because >his appearance had changed so much.

He went up to fourth I think some time in 2003, and he just got his fifth earlier this year. It's funny you mention him looking so different to you after four years of not seeing him, because I have the same sense after not seeing him for a couple of months in the summer. 

 >I'm still running my school just outside of Nashville, but each year I come        >up and help the Ohio schools run their black belt test.

Cool---I hope I'll get to meet you, then, sometime in the next couple of years!

 >Say hello to your instructor for me. 

I will, for sure---we start up again this Tuesday, will pass on your greeting then.

>I didn't get to know hiim that well, but from my viewpoint, I was always >impressed by him both as a martial artist and as a person.

I will do. He is a spectacular person in both respects. And relevant to the other thread we're on in the General MA discussion, I think he also views TKD as an inherently mixed fighting art---nothing at all like the virtually exclusive kicking art that it has morphed into in some quarters as a result of the Olympic influence. He's always trying to get begininng students to remember to `keep your hands up while you're kicking!!' And I know he's done some hapkido, and his approach to self-defense is very realistic. I really lucked out finding him as my instructor.


----------



## kanjc

I have my Red, I test for High red next week. In our school we go Red, High Red, Bo-dan and then finally 1st dan Black. I have been at TKD for just over 2 years


----------



## tkd101

Hello there,
     Started about 3-3 1/2 yrs ago.  Am now a 1st dan assistant instructor in my school.  I go to a WTF TKD school (Parks Taekwondo Academy).  I am also an orange belt in the art of Hai Dong Gumdo (sword play) that we also learn in our school.  Cant enough about the art of TKD, it has done alot for me in my confidence and self perspective.  My daughter also takes it with me and she is a red belt.  She also enjoys it.


----------



## TraditionalTKD

4th Dan Kukkiwon-affiliated Tae Kwon Do, 23 years experience.


----------



## Terryowl

About 25 years, (give or take a day). 2nd Dan Tang Soo Do, *1st Dan TKD*, Purple belt Hak Ki Do.

Assistant Instructor for one of our branch schools from 1994-1996
Assistant Instructor for the TKD club I am in here in China, with over 200 students attending classes. Lot's of fun, being the only Foreigner in the Do Jang.


----------



## andyjeffries

I'm a 32 year old 3rd Dan from Stevenage, Herts, UK.  I train under Master Carl Lees (previously under Master Pan, Sim-Woon).  My current aims are to lose weight (I stopped training for a while and piled it on), take my 4th Dan (aiming for next August) and then sit the Foreign Instructor Course at the Kukkiwon (summer 2008).


----------



## exile

andyjeffries said:


> I'm a 32 year old 3rd Dan from Stevenage, Herts, UK.  I train under Master Carl Lees (previously under Master Pan, Sim-Woon).  My current aims are to lose weight (I stopped training for a while and piled it on), take my 4th Dan (aiming for next August) and then sit the Foreign Instructor Course at the Kukkiwon (summer 2008).



Hello, Andy, good to have you here!


----------



## terryl965

andyjeffries said:


> I'm a 32 year old 3rd Dan from Stevenage, Herts, UK. I train under Master Carl Lees (previously under Master Pan, Sim-Woon). My current aims are to lose weight (I stopped training for a while and piled it on), take my 4th Dan (aiming for next August) and then sit the Foreign Instructor Course at the Kukkiwon (summer 2008).


 
Andy it is nice to have you here, the foreign instructor course is a great learning tool wish you luck.
Terry


----------



## andyjeffries

Thanks exile


----------



## andyjeffries

terryl965 said:


> Andy it is nice to have you here, the foreign instructor course is a great learning tool wish you luck.
> Terry




Thanks Terry,

I'm only just beginning to get back to fitness after a long layoff (so loving relearning all the patterns with recent changes) but going to Korea has always been a goal.  I'm lucky that we have enough money for me to do it now (I'm not loaded, but started my own business and it's doing well), my wife is supportive of this desire and going out there for a reason makes great sense.

I'm looking forward to the course.


----------



## IcemanSK

andyjeffries said:


> I'm a 32 year old 3rd Dan from Stevenage, Herts, UK. I train under Master Carl Lees (previously under Master Pan, Sim-Woon). My current aims are to lose weight (I stopped training for a while and piled it on), take my 4th Dan (aiming for next August) and then sit the Foreign Instructor Course at the Kukkiwon (summer 2008).


 

Welcome to MT, Andy! It's good to have you here.


----------



## andyjeffries

Thanks Iceman.  Very welcoming board this


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## bluemtn

Welcome, Andy!


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## Miles

Welcome to MT Andy!

Pan Sim Woon was in my class at the 10th Foreigner Instructor Course.  

Miles


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## andyjeffries

Miles said:


> Welcome to MT Andy!
> 
> Pan Sim Woon was in my class at the 10th Foreigner Instructor Course.



Cool, he's a really good guy.

I'm hoping to sit the Foreign Instructor Course in 2008 and I know he's going for his next grading in 2008, I wonder if he'll be there at the same time...


----------



## anuarsamsudin

I'm father of 5 kids. All kukkiwon taekwondo practitioner from Malaysia. My youngest daughter has just been promoted to 1st pomme last year (dec 2015) at the age of 7. She start practice taekwondo at the age of 3 (casually without any grading for 1 year) and start taking it seriously a year later. Won several state tournament (gold medalist) and national gold medalist for her age. She performed better than her elder team member for poomsae (taeguk), able to perform all 8 taeguk as required by the examiner. Month before the grading, she practice taeguk 1 to 8 almost everyday under supervision of her sisters and brother until she's able to perform it by herself. So....did she deserved it? I think so...


----------



## JP3

Way overdue, but here you go.

4th Degree by 2004, started in 1986, stayed with TKD, branched into Hapkido (HKD) at about 2nd degree. I think that was... 1992? I actually can't quite remember.  Every once in a while I'll dust off the old uni and go do the old poomse, both ATA and WTF stuff (was in both organizations, as weird as that sounds).  Ended up sort of sliding away from it to do judo-aikido as I got older, easier on the body. Total time actually "in" was around 20 years, ish.


----------



## Texas TKD Lady

I'm 36 years old and 1st dan. I started as a child in 1990, quit about two years later at blue belt/red tip, then started back as an adult in 2013.
We're WTF style, and we do palgwe forms. I don't see palgwe as often, at least not on this forum.


----------



## andyjeffries

Texas TKD Lady said:


> We're WTF style, and we do palgwe forms. I don't see palgwe as often, at least not on this forum.



Probably because they were dropped by the Kukkiwon after only about 5 years of use back in the 70s, so it's only instructors that left Korea during that time that really kept doing them.  Most people moved on to the Taegeuk series and the Palgwe are considered to be abandoned (they aren't in the Kukkiwon textbook, the Master Instructor textbook, the Poom/Dan examiner textbook, aren't tested during Dan gradings at Kukkiwon, etc).

From what I understand they are supposed to be quite nice, but I have enough to focus on without learning abandoned patterns  as well...


----------



## Texas TKD Lady

The palgwe forms are beautiful, but I'm partial to forms so I love them all.  I'm not familiar with taeguk so I'm not able to compare. Apparently my current school used to do taeguk but then went back to palgwe. I have no recollection of the style we did when I was a child. My grandmaster is from Korea and came to the US in the late 1970s, so that may explain why we went more old school.


----------



## SahBumNimRush

Some how I missed posting on this thread.. . 

I've been training in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo for 30 years, I am a 6th dan.  

We practice an older curriculum vs. the modern curriculum (we learn the Pyung Ahn forms rather than the taeguk forms).


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## TrueJim

At the school my son and I attend, we learn the Taegeuk forms while we're color-belts, and then black-belts learn the Palgwae forms in addition to the regular Kukkiwon black-belt forms....so I've learned only P1-4 so far. They feel very different to me than Taegeuk forms.

The Taegeuk forms feel more "scientific" to me. It feels like there's a logical progression from one form the next, especially T1-6...it really feels like they keep building on each other nicely. Of course it's easier to recognize the 3 lines in each Taegeuk form, since the Palgwae forms (like some Kibon forms) put the 1st and 3rd lines on the same physical floor line. Also, I find it easier to associate each Taegeuk form with its element: fire, thunder, wind, etc. You can imagine doing the form expressively like its associated element.


So far, the Palgwae forms feel more random to me. This happens, then this happens, then this happens...they just don't feel as logical. I'm not seeing the associated element in the design of the form yet. But I'm finding the Palgwae forms much easier to remember. Each one is so distinct, with its own funny little quirks and movements. It's like they have more character. They're quirky.
*Upshot: the Taegeuk forms are Spock. The Palgwae forms are McCoy. *

I do enjoy learning all these many forms, but as others have pointed out, part of me would rather learn fewer forms in more depth, rather than always learning new forms.

When I did taekwondo back in the early 80s in college, I'm assuming those were Pyung Ahn forms we were doing, but honestly that was so long ago, and there was so little emphasis on forms in that club, I don't know for sure. We mostly just drilled fundamentals, did one-steps, and did light-contact sparring back then -- no emphasis on forms. Now that I've returned to taekwondo decades later though, I've found all that drilling way back then still helps me today!


----------



## Dirty Dog

Texas TKD Lady said:


> I'm 36 years old and 1st dan. I started as a child in 1990, quit about two years later at blue belt/red tip, then started back as an adult in 2013.
> We're WTF style, and we do palgwe forms. I don't see palgwe as often, at least not on this forum.



No no no. There is no such thing as WTF style. The WTF doesn't award rank, define a curriculum or anything of the sort. Look at your rank certificate. I'll bet it says Kukkiwon. Not WTF. If you have one that says it was issued by the WTF, I'd really like to see a scan posted.

We use the palgwae forms as our base, with those who want KKW (not WTF!!!) certification also being taught the taegeuk forms.
The KKW replaced the palgwae forms long ago, and no longer endorse them. Technically (though this is completely unenforced and essentially unenforceable) you should not be awarded a KKW Dan rank unless you know the taegeuk forms. Because they're no longer supported by a large international organization, you'll see variations from one school or system to another.
That might be worth a thread of it's own though, to discuss the differences between how various schools teach the palgwae forms.


----------



## TrueJim

So, at my WTF-style school....

(I may only be 1st dan Kukkiwon, but I'm 9th dan Aneurysm-Fu!) 

"That might be worth a thread of it's own though, to discuss the differences between how various schools teach the palgwae forms."

That would be interesting! Also, when I look at Original Koryo on YouTube I see interesting differences there as well. For example in the middle there's an Opening (Wedging) Block. Most videos show it as middle-height, but I know of at least one video that shows it as a Low Opening Block.

Middle: 




Low:


----------



## hilly1981

Chodan-Bo under Taekwondo Jidokwan. Active training for 3.5 years. When I was a kid/teenager trained in Shotokan Karate for about 6 years.

Returned to training tonight after 18 month hiatus. Feeling it now but glad to be back!


----------



## andyjeffries

andyjeffries said:


> I'm a 32 year old 3rd Dan from Stevenage, Herts, UK.  I train under Master Carl Lees (previously under Master Pan, Sim-Woon).  My current aims are to lose weight (I stopped training for a while and piled it on), take my 4th Dan (aiming for next August) and then sit the Foreign Instructor Course at the Kukkiwon (summer 2008).



I've seen this thread pop up recently and noticed that there was one from me. Wow, it was weird to read that post I wrote on here almost 10 years ago...

How did I do... So-so I would say...

- Lose weight - not really managed, but trying again and having a good start to the year. If the 10 years have taught me anything, it's that I will always struggle with my weight but if I can success in other areas I can beat this.

- Get 4th Dan - I'm currently a 7th Dan, so I guess I hit that one nicely 

- Attend Kukkiwon Foreign Instructor Course - well, I didn't make it in 2008 but I did successfully pass with a citation in 2013 and am going back this year to do it again (although I won't be able to make the exam/physical test at the end).

Unfortunately for our club and his family, Master Carl Lees died in a scuba diving accident in 2012.  I took over the club, and I have to say the past few years have been very successful for the club. 

In 2006 I was trying to find my original instructor (Grandmaster Pan, Sim-Woon) again, I succeeded in doing that and he's been a rock in my Taekwondo career since again. We even went to the same instructor course in 2013 in Korea and I was present for his promotion to Changmookwan 9th Dan.

So, I'm happy with the past 10 years, looking forward to the next one.

How has everyone else progressed since this thread was originally around?  Have you hit the goals you wanted to, have moved in to other areas?


----------



## TrueJim

andyjeffries said:


> If the 10 years have taught me anything, it's that I will always struggle with my weight but if I can success in other areas I can beat this...



I read once that if you do the same amount of exercise every day during your entire adult life, you'll still use 30% muscle-mass just due to age. And of course with the reduced muscle-mass comes decreased metabolic calorie burn, and increased weight. It's a struggle man!


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## Flatfish

I have been at it for two years, Kukki TKD, just tested for 1st Geup but we have a Deputy black belt before 1st Dan at our school. If things keep going well I hope to be testing for 1st before the end of the year.


----------



## Earl Weiss

andyjeffries said:


> ................................. that post I wrote on here almost 10 years ago...
> 
> How did I do... So-so I would say...
> 
> ...............................................
> - Get 4th Dan - I'm currently a 7th Dan, so I guess I hit that one nicely
> 
> ...................................................
> 
> How has everyone else progressed since this thread was originally around?  Have you hit the goals you wanted to, have moved in to other areas?




Reached goal. Still alive and kicking. .   

You did much better in the rank advancement department. I've advanced  one Dan since 2006. (That was in 2009).


----------



## andyjeffries

Earl Weiss said:


> You did much better in the rank advancement department. I've advanced  one Dan since 2006. (That was in 2009).



But you have less ranks to go than I do ;-)


----------



## Balrog

Somehow I seem to have missed this thread.

I've been at it for over 30 years.  Currently 6th Degree Black Belt, Master Instructor, in Songahm Taekwondo.


----------



## Sarah G

4 years as a kid in ITF-style taekwondo, then a loooooong break, then 9 years in WTF-style (traditional taekwondo, not sport taekwondo). Currently 2nd Dan.


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## Jaeimseu

Sarah G said:


> 4 years as a kid in ITF-style taekwondo, then a loooooong break, then 9 years in WTF-style (traditional taekwondo, not sport taekwondo). Currently 2nd Dan.


Not to be argumentative, but if you're doing WTF then you are, by definition, doing sport Taekwondo. WTF is a sports organisation. Perhaps you do Kukkiwon Taekwondo. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Archtkd

Sarah G said:


> 4 years as a kid in ITF-style taekwondo, then a loooooong break, then 9 years in WTF-style (traditional taekwondo, not sport taekwondo). Currently 2nd Dan.


You know the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) is the governing body of Olympic (sport) taekwondo in the world, right? That's the main purpose for the existence of the the WTF. In that regard to say you practice WTF-style taekwondo, not sport taekwondo makes you sound very strange.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Sarah G said:


> 4 years as a kid in ITF-style taekwondo, then a loooooong break, then 9 years in WTF-style (traditional taekwondo, not sport taekwondo). Currently 2nd Dan.



It always depresses me that a person would claim to hold Dan rank from an organization (the WTF) that doesn't even award rank. There is no such thing as WTF-style. The WTF is a governing body for the sport of Olympic Taekwondo. 
Didn't you ever actually READ your Dan certificate? You really should. Because it's not from the WTF.

#facepalm


----------



## Sarah G

Not to be argumentative, but... I didn't claim to have a WTF Dan grade, that would be ridiculous. You leapt to your own conclusions, Dirty Dog. And yes, I can read.

I've learnt ITF rules of sparring and WTF rules of sparring, they are very different styles for sure, or they were when I was taught them. So there is (or was) a distinct ITF style and a distinct WTF style in that respect, and so it's OK for me to refer to it in that way. ITF/WTF is also a useful shorthand for referring to other differences such as which poomsae you are taught, etc. but perhaps that isn't common in the US.

In the UK, 'sport taekwondo' refers to clubs primarily concerned with sparring for the Olympics and not interested in taekwondo as a martial art. If I had said 'traditional taekwondo and not JUST sport taekwondo', and then that might have been clearer, for which I apologise.


----------



## Archtkd

Sarah G said:


> Not to be argumentative, but... I didn't claim to have a WTF Dan grade, that would be ridiculous. You leapt to your own conclusions, Dirty Dog. And yes, I can read.
> 
> I've learnt ITF rules of sparring and WTF rules of sparring, they are very different styles for sure, or they were when I was taught them. So there is (or was) a distinct ITF style and a distinct WTF style in that respect, and so it's OK for me to refer to it in that way. ITF/WTF is also a useful shorthand for referring to other differences such as which poomsae you are taught, etc. but perhaps that isn't common in the US.
> 
> In the UK, 'sport taekwondo' refers to clubs primarily concerned with sparring for the Olympics and not interested in taekwondo as a martial art. If I had said 'traditional taekwondo and not JUST sport taekwondo', and then that might have been clearer, for which I apologise.



Ok. Let's back track a little here. Welcome to MT, where many folks tend to be very particular. I think what you are saying is that you practice Kukkiwon/Kukki style taekwondo, as someone else has noted. When you say Kukki style, it normally covers sparring, poomsae, some hoshinshul and some terminology that is universally recognized by practitioners of the style. If you insist on saying WTF here on MT and in the circles of those that tend to be particular, you are telling us that you focus on WTF (i.e Olympic) sparring. On another note, the term "traditional" is often a confusing and loaded term. What tradition are we talking about, especially if we throw in the WTF, an organization founded in 1973?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Sarah G said:


> Not to be argumentative, but... I didn't claim to have a WTF Dan grade, that would be ridiculous. You leapt to your own conclusions, Dirty Dog. And yes, I can read.
> 
> I've learnt ITF rules of sparring and WTF rules of sparring, they are very different styles for sure, or they were when I was taught them. So there is (or was) a distinct ITF style and a distinct WTF style in that respect, and so it's OK for me to refer to it in that way. ITF/WTF is also a useful shorthand for referring to other differences such as which poomsae you are taught, etc. but perhaps that isn't common in the US.
> 
> In the UK, 'sport taekwondo' refers to clubs primarily concerned with sparring for the Olympics and not interested in taekwondo as a martial art. If I had said 'traditional taekwondo and not JUST sport taekwondo', and then that might have been clearer, for which I apologise.



The ITF is a style. It sets standards for forms, sparring, specific details of how techniques are performed and awards rank.
Kukkiwon TKD is a style. It sets standards for forms, sparring, specific details of how techniques are performed, curriculum, and awards rank.
The ATA is a style. It sets standards for forms, sparring, specific detail of how techniques are performed, curriculum, and awards rank.
The GTF is a style. It sets standards for forms, sparring, specific details of how techniques are performed, curriculum, and awards rank.
The MDK is a style. It sets standards for forms, sparring, specific details of how techniques are performed, curriculum, and awards rank.
The WTF is a sports governing body. It does not do these things. It is not a style of TKD.
It is not a useful shorthand, because it is incorrect. KKW TKD is a useful shorthand. Because it denotes a style.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Dirty Dog said:


> The ITF is a style. It sets standards for forms, sparring, specific details of how techniques are performed and awards rank.
> Kukkiwon TKD is a style. It sets standards for forms, sparring, specific details of how techniques are performed, curriculum, and awards rank.
> 
> The WTF is a sports governing body. It does not do these things. It is not a style of TKD.


I thought WTF set the rules, and hence "standards" for sparring.  As a result of that understanding, I don't disagree with someone who says they practice WTF-style TKD; the KKW-grading schools I have seen spar in WTF rules, and focus their training on that ruleset (e.g., little practice on knee kicks or head punches, since they are not allowed in tournaments).


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

PS: I'm 1st dan with KKW, 26 years in TKD with a 20 year break in the middle.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I thought WTF set the rules, and hence "standards" for sparring.  As a result of that understanding, I don't disagree with someone who says they practice WTF-style TKD; the KKW-grading schools I have seen spar in WTF rules, and focus their training on that ruleset (e.g., little practice on knee kicks or head punches, since they are not allowed in tournaments).



So you define a style by a sparring ruleset and nothing more?
I guess I teach a whole bunch of styles then, since we spar under more than one ruleset.

A style of MA is a complete system; not just one small fragment.


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## TrueJim

I think what Gwai Lo Dan is saying (I think) is that a Kukkiwon-style school doesn't necessarily have to use WTF-style sparring in order to be a Kukkiwon-style school. For instance, they could practice Taegeuk poomsae and Kukkiwon-style techniques, but not wear chest protectors while sparring. So a person could say it's a WTF-style school to denote the fact that they do WTF-style sparring in the school.

Now that I think of it...couldn't even an ATA or ITF school practice WTF-style sparring, if they wanted to? It'd be odd, but not impossible?


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

No I don't define the style uniquely by the sparring. 

My post flows what I believe is an erroneous statement of yours.  Taking out all the stuff in the middle, which was part of my post, you said "Kukkiwon ...sets standards for .. sparring....The WTF.. does not "

I don't believe that is a correct statement.  Correct me if I am wrong, but it IS the WTF that sets the rules for sparring that KKW style schools participate in.  And those sparring rules definitely impact the schools' teachings. 

My point of my post is that the WTF heavily influences KKW style schools, so I don't get my knickers in a knot if someone talks about WTF style schools, even if there are not exactly correct.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I don't believe that is a correct statement.  Correct me if I am wrong, but it IS the WTF that sets the rules for sparring that KKW style schools participate in.  And those sparring rules definitely impact the schools' teachings.



Consider yourself corrected. The KKW sets the sparring standards for KKW schools. The *only* rules the WTF sets are those used in tournaments sponsored by the WTF, all of which are, by definition, aimed at training specifically for Olympic competition. That is all. Nothing else.
Others may *choose* to follow these standards, and if they're a sport-oriented school it's quite possible they will do so. KKW schools almost always include sparring under the WTF rules, but many (most?) also spar under other rules.
For example, we are a KKW school (we're Moo Duk Kwan, but we also award KKW Dan ranks to those who wish them, and by the KKW standards, that makes us a KKW school).
We do not spar under the WTF rules within our system. 
It may be correct to say you practice WTF sparring. It is not correct to say you practice WTF taekwondo.


----------



## andyjeffries

Sarah G said:


> So there is (or was) a distinct ITF style and a distinct WTF style in that respect, and so it's OK for me to refer to it in that way. ITF/WTF is also a useful shorthand for referring to other differences such as which poomsae you are taught, etc. but perhaps that isn't common in the US.
> 
> In the UK, 'sport taekwondo' refers to clubs primarily concerned with sparring for the Olympics and not interested in taekwondo as a martial art.



I'm in the UK as well, and it's still inaccurate to call it WTF Taekwondo. There are people who do WTF sparring, but palgwae forms (which haven't been an accepted part of Kukkiwon for 30+ years), so saying "I do WTF Taekwondo" is still inaccurate unless, you are a pure sports player.

This terminology however tends to be used more by clubs in British Taekwondo, because they are led by the often inaccuracies inherent in that organisation. For example, if you attend events like the World Taekwondo Grand Prix that they host in Manchester each year, the announcer (and national team members) always says "Thai-kwondo" completely ignoring the correct pronunciation of "Teh-kwondo".


----------



## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> Consider yourself corrected. The KKW sets the sparring standards for KKW schools. The *only* rules the WTF sets are those used in tournaments sponsored by the WTF, all of which are, by definition, aimed at training specifically for Olympic competition. That is all. Nothing else.



I'm going from memory (so I'd need to check) but I'm fairly sure the Kukkiwon defers to the WTF for sparring rules in both the Examiner Course textbook and the Master Instructor textbook.


----------



## Sarah G

So are we at least agreed that 'WTF-style' refers to sparring using WTF rules?


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> I'm going from memory (so I'd need to check) but I'm fairly sure the Kukkiwon defers to the WTF for sparring rules in both the Examiner Course textbook and the Master Instructor textbook.



They do not "defer" to them, as that wold indicate that the WTF is the greater authority on KKW sparring, which obviously is not true.
They do endorse the WTF rules. Hardly the same thing.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Sarah G said:


> So are we at least agreed that 'WTF-style' refers to sparring using WTF rules?



No. Especially when coupled with the claim that it's 'not sport taekwondo', given that the WTF ruleset is just abut the absolute worst possible sparring rules for anyone training for anything other than the very limited Olympic tournament circuit.
"WTF sparring" or "sport taekwondo" would be correct, when referring to sparring under the WTF rules.


----------



## TrueJim

I'll confess to being one of those people who thinks it's okay to say "WTF-style" for the same reason that I think it's okay to say Kleenex when you mean "tissue." That having been said though, I too was confused by the description of "WTF-style but not _sport_ taekwondo". I'd actually be interested in learning more about the approach and curriculum at that school. In particular, I'd be interested in learning more about how their approach is non-sporty. (I'm not being sarcastic...I'm sincerely curious and interested.)


----------



## Sarah G

Dirty Dog said:


> ...the WTF ruleset is just abut the absolute worst possible sparring rules...



That's a very strong opinion, may I ask why you feel this?

I'd love a link to the Kukkiwon's sparring rules, if that exists? I can't find anything on their website.


----------



## TrueJim

Sarah G said:


> I'd love a link to the Kukkiwon's sparring rules, if that exists? I can't find anything on their website.



Great minds think alike. I looked too and didn't find anything. I gave away my copy of Kukkiwon textbook (to a friend in need!) but I don't recall anything in there about sparring rules either...but that could just be my faulty memory.


----------



## Flatfish

I can't say whether it is the worst possible sparring rule set, since I do not know what other bad rule sets there might be but I am NOT a fan of them either. I do enjoy sparring, don't get me wrong but the rules are way too limited: no punches to the head (which among other things encourages players to not keep their hands up), punches to the torso are very difficult to get points for, no takedowns, more points for flashy techniques than making solid contact etc. They make TKD look much more limited than it is.


----------



## TrueJim

I think I've mentioned this before, I'm really keen to see what karate will look like in the Olympics. It seems to me that taekwondo has opted to try to look more "theatrical" by emphasizing head-height spinning kicks. Is that a good thing, is that a bad thing? I don't know...it's a thing. 

Arguably, the alternative would be to aim for something that's less "theatrical" and more "realistic." I'm guessing that's the approach Olympic karate will take? 

So here's my question: which will sell more tickets? At the Olympics, the real key is to sell tickets. A sport doesn't get to stay in the Olympics if nobody is buying tickets. So do audiences want to see big theatrical performances, or more realistic demonstrations? Which is more entertaining? I'm really curious to see.


----------



## Flatfish

Good point, but just take a look at what WTF sparring looked like before electronic scoring was implemented. In my opinion much more impressive than what we are seeing today. Good contact and I would say more variety of techniques compared to the "one-leg-hopping-jab-kick" (I made that up) that is so prevalent today.......IMO not entertaining at all. Doesn't have anything to do with the limiting rule set but the electronic scoring made things even worse I think.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Sarah G said:


> That's a very strong opinion, may I ask why you feel this?



Try taking it in context next time. The part you deleted, which indicates I'm talking about training for anything OTHER than the very narrow world of Olympic-style competition, was important.

So, are you going to tell me that you think training hands down, no punches to the head, falling down after many kicks is GOOD training for self defense or even competing in any other venue than the aforementioned very narrow WTF tourney format?
Try that in MMA. You'll get killed.
Try it in kickboxing. You'll get killed.
Try it in a self defense situation. You'll get killed. Possibly literally.
Yes, it is possible to overcome habit, but your muscle memory means you will, by default, fight the way you train.
Next time I face someone in a violent confrontation, I really really hope they keep their hands down, and don't punch to the head.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Flatfish said:


> I do enjoy sparring, don't get me wrong but the rules are way too limited: no punches to the head (which among other things encourages players to not keep their hands up), punches to the torso are very difficult to get points for, no takedowns, more points for flashy techniques than making solid contact etc.


Not to mention that the rules encourage competitors to kick at inappropriate distances.


----------



## Tez3

WTF are changing their name. 
World Taekwondo Federation is changing its name for obvious reasons


----------



## Flatfish

Tez3 said:


> WTF are changing their name.
> World Taekwondo Federation is changing its name for obvious reasons




Nooooooooooo, I'm losing my best party line


----------



## Gnarlie

RTKDCMB said:


> Not to mention that the rules encourage competitors to kick at inappropriate distances.


Hi RTKDCMB. Can you elaborate on this, I'd like to understand your view. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Flatfish

One thing I can think of is kicking when you're in close instead of using a punch which would likely be more effective, quicker and easier to pull off.


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## RTKDCMB

Gnarlie said:


> Hi RTKDCMB. Can you elaborate on this, I'd like to understand your view.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Because kicks are worth more points competitors often try to kick each other in the head when they are standing 6 inches from each other.


----------



## Gnarlie

RTKDCMB said:


> Because kicks are worth more points competitors often try to kick each other in the head when they are standing 6 inches from each other.



I'm not sure I understand why that's inappropriate in the context of WTF competition, or am understanding you wrong? Do you mean inappropriate in an SD sense?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gnarlie said:


> I'm not sure I understand why that's inappropriate in the context of WTF competition, or am understanding you wrong? Do you mean inappropriate in an SD sense?



Referring back to the context. It's a response to my statement that the WTF ruleset is just about the worst possible rules for anything other than the extremely narrow application of WTF tournament competition. Kicking at silly ranges was brought up as one of the many bad habits encouraged by this ruleset; bad habits for which the person can pay a painful penalty in any other context.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Gnarlie said:


> I'm not sure I understand why that's inappropriate in the context of WTF competition, or am understanding you wrong? Do you mean inappropriate in an SD sense?


What Dirty Dog said.


----------



## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> They do not "defer" to them, as that wold indicate that the WTF is the greater authority on KKW sparring, which obviously is not true. They do endorse the WTF rules. Hardly the same thing.



Defer - submit to or acknowledge the merit of: _he deferred to Tim's superior knowledge._
-- Oxford Dictionary of English

Seems to apply quite correctly here. Not necessarily "authority" in terms of who is boss, but in terms of who runs the most sparring competitions out of KKW or WTF, the WTF clearly has more merit in it's sparring rules decisions, hence why the KKW uses the WTF rules.


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## clifflwms

TigerWoman said:


> We haven't posted anything like this. The Kenpo people have WAY overmanned us.  Wouldn't be good in a fight. :goop:
> 
> Anyway, mostly for people looking and perhaps joining us....please list yourself, your rank, years in, when you joined Taekwondo, please.
> 
> artyon:


Started TaeKwonDo training in 1982, went into the Military in 1986 and started training Tang Soo Do and Shotokan. Recently returned to TKD. (2nd Dan)


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## Kong Soo Do

Started training in 1975.  Rose up to the rank of 6th Dan in TKD under the same instructor.  I discontinued rank progression in TKD in favor of KSD.


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## escuelafraternidad

32 years in Tae Kwon Do ITF, started in 1987 at the age of 25. Currently hold the rank of 5th Dan Black Belt (certified by ITF of GMs Pablo Trajtenberg / Wim Boss / Armando Grispino, and so on). I run my own dojang with pupils of all ages (4 to 55 in differents shifts). My dojang is affiliated with Escuela Fraternidad de Taekwondo in Argentina, run by 4 Masters (2 of them are 8th, and the other 2 are 7th)


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## JP3

TigerWoman said:


> We haven't posted anything like this. The Kenpo people have WAY overmanned us.  Wouldn't be good in a fight. :goop:
> 
> Anyway, mostly for people looking and perhaps joining us....please list yourself, your rank, years in, when you joined Taekwondo, please.
> 
> artyon:



Started TKD 1985 in ATA school, Then-2D Mark Prosser instructing, stuck with it through 2000. Switched from ATA to WTF and got to 4th dan. Pretty much put it ont he shelf, though the footwork shows up at inappropriate times while in judo/aikido mat stuff sometimes.


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## Balrog

Wow.  I can't believe I missed this thread.

6th Degree, Master Instructor.  Total of 35 years training, 3 with Jhoon Rhee's organization and 32 with the ATA.


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## JP3

Balrog said:


> Wow.  I can't believe I missed this thread.
> 
> 6th Degree, Master Instructor.  Total of 35 years training, 3 with Jhoon Rhee's organization and 32 with the ATA.


I know, right? I noted it when it popped up in the "new posts" when I clicked it... that's how I peruse MT. I read the O/P, not reallyt hinking about it and thought, "Huh, funny how that's never been asked before now..." skipped to page 14 and then I saw when the first post on the last page was dated. Whoa...


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## skribs

3rd degree black belt in KKW, 10 years of training.

Started training around 1995, quit around 1999 as a green belt (from ages 7-11).  Quit to focus on wrestling in middle school.  Started over as a white belt at my current dojang in 2013.  Thanks to a combination of my previous experience, as well as my Master putting me on the fast-track where I started teaching as a blue belt, and spent 20+ hours per week at the dojang, it took me 5 years to go from white belt to 3rd degree black belt (2 years to get black belt, 1 year for 2nd dan, 2 years for 3rd dan).  Been 3rd dan for about a year.


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## aw4kened

My father was an instructor so my official start date is really hard to nail down, that said, I'm currently 2nd Dan, WTF. I just need to test for 3rd when I get back to classes after an injury. I've been doing TKD off and on for around 15 years.


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## Azulx

I'm a 2nd Dan in TKD, been doing it for 4.5 years.


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## CKB

First trained from 1991 to 1996, then from 2012 untill now. 3rd dan.


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## Buka

Trained Tae-Kwon-Do off and on for many years, all the while training everything else. I have the same rank in Tae-Kwon-Do as I do in American Karate and several other arts. All my Black belts are embroidered thusly - 階級無意味,  武士道一筋.

Only a complete heathen, infidel like myself would embroider an American Karate AND a Tae-Kwon-Do black belt with Japanese characters. But it is not meant as disrespect, but rather as an homage.
Loosely translated it reads "Rank is meaningless. Bushido is the only path."

God, I so love being a heathen. A non traditional, respectful, traditional heathen at that.


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## dvcochran

I tested earlier this year for 5th Dan WTF and 7th Dan MDK TKD. Been at it for 37 years. 
I'm sort of like Buka, I show no rank on my belt. My GM game me his belt about 10 years ago. I took it and my first BB which I was still wearing took half from each and made one belt. Kind of a beginning and end / Um Yang thing.


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## Buka

aw4kened said:


> My father was an instructor so my official start date is really hard to nail down, that said, I'm currently 2nd Dan, WTF. I just need to test for 3rd when I get back to classes after an injury. I've been doing TKD off and on for around 15 years.



Welcome to Martial talk, bro.


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## JP3

Another cool to read thread, this is.


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## W.Bridges

Started TKD in 93 made it to 5th kup Blue belt and was about to test for 4th kup purple. Had a knee injury then stopped training in TKD. I started training TKD again in February 2018 with my youngest son. I started back at yellow belt and have made it to 5th kup green belt blue stripe.


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## Michele123

Started training Oct 2017. Currently red belt/1st gup. Pregnancy (Nov 2018-Aug 2019) and newborn have slowed me down. Not sure when I’ll be able to move on but getting very antsy to get back to it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ivan

TigerWoman said:


> We haven't posted anything like this. The Kenpo people have WAY overmanned us.  Wouldn't be good in a fight. :goop:
> 
> Anyway, mostly for people looking and perhaps joining us....please list yourself, your rank, years in, when you joined Taekwondo, please.
> 
> artyon:


7th kup, ~1.5 years, training since the start of 2018 (not too sure exactly when)


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## mrt2

Started Tang Soo Do way back in 1979, quit almost 3 years later (OK, maybe 2 years, 11 months) at the rank of Cho Dan Bo, because I was moving onto college and unfortunately, didn't see the way forward to continuing my training.  Put Martial Arts in the rear view mirror until the Winter of 2018, when I started in ITF style Tae Kwon Do, as a white belt.  I have earned the rank of high brown belt, which is the highest colored belt ranking at our school.  I hope to test for probationary black belt by the end of the year, and hopefully, 1st Dan by the middle of next year.


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## Flashx80

I have been practicing ITF TKD for almost 20 years. 4th degree


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