# Kids and submissions



## Andrew Green (May 29, 2007)

From here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48180



tez3 said:


> Andrew Green said:
> 
> 
> > Pretty sure I mean what you do, kids start submissions after about a year or so. But for them a chicken wing involves control and pinning the wrist to the lower back, once its there, it's over, no pain, no tapping
> ...



I think this is a topic in itself, and that is what submissions, and how they are taught to younger kids.  By younger I mean 6-10 sort of range.

My personal belief is that kids should be taught submissions, and should use them in sparring.  That's how this game is won, and otherwise it's like playing basketball without a hoop in some sense.

But at the same time I don't let our kids apply pressure on locks, just set there position.  As in the above example, a chicken wing ends with control of the arm, proper grip and with the wrist pinned to the back.  Doesn't hurt, no real danger of injury but the control position is pretty much the same.

Arm Bars end when the arm is straight.

Keylocks end when they have the wrist pinned to the ground, there elbow on the ground by the other childs ear and have a proper figure four grip, they don't slide it in.

Chokes, although perhaps the safest in terms of serious risks come well after arm bars.  Until then they win if they get the back with both hooks and can hold it for a count of 5 or 10.  Reason is that although safe, it is also the most likely to cause that fear response and tears.  When they do start chokes it is the same thing as with armlocks, get the position without applying pressure.

Generally we only do 2 sorts of chokes in the kids class, triangles which come first, then rear naked.  They learn a few others and will use them on adults, but not each other for some time.

The reason the triangle comes first is that in a sense it is less scary, you don't have someones arm around your neck.  It is also less likely to apply pressure across the throat, which causes pain and fear.  Once they are comfortable being in and using triangles we start working for the rear naked rather then just folding the back, with a progression on where it stops.  Obviously the goal is elbow in line with chin, hand to bicep, other to shoulder.  But in the beginning it gets stopped earlier if they are working for it, once the comfort level and control gets better they will work it into tighter position before getting stopped (although never applying pressure)

That's where are kids start, and over time they will pick up other things and use them when working with the adults.  But for the most part its arm locks and chokes, more specifically ones that emphasize control and can be held in position without applying.

What's everyone elses approach to kids and submissions?


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## kempo-vjj (May 29, 2007)

I have two kids, in which we train some groundwork on our saturday classes. They started this at 8 and 9. My instructors would pay close attention whenever the kids are applying locks or chokes to make sure of arm position, good, bad, not to tight for training purposes. I think a good description of what there doing and the consequences of these submissions is a good way of instituting knowledge of the technique before somebody drops there weight down and snap. They do not work standing chokes until third belt up, but standing wrist locks start at the first two belts.


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## Makalakumu (May 30, 2007)

I think it all depends on the depth of the art.  Some arts have lots of aspects to them, for example, the Tang Soo Do that I teach covers stand - up, clinch/randori, and grappling.  For kids, this is often too much to try and learn and with submissions, the amount of time to teach them safely might not be there.

Sometimes its best to focus in on one aspect with kids in the range that this thread is addressing.


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