# The Flow Drill



## Guro Harold (May 31, 2004)

This thread is inspired by the technical discussion threads started by Rich Parsons.

The Flow Drill

Attacker's role:

Basic pattern: 
The attacker throws strikes #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, and #12 in a continuous sequence.  The attacker can use empty-hand strikes, daga, or solo baston.


Defender's role:

Basic pattern (using with attacker using a training daga, defender is weaponless):

#1 Throat cut counter  
----------------------
With the defender's left and right hands positioned in the open position, the defender ducks, passes and controls the #1 strike overhead with their left hand, while the defender's right counter strikes the inside forearm of the opponent.   The end result will cause the opponent's stike to be passed to the opponent's left side, while the defender's arms will be crossed right over left in the closed position.

#2 Throat cut counter
----------------------
With the defender's left and right hands still positioned in the closed position, the defender ducks, passes and controls the #2 strike overhead with their left hand, while the defender's right counter strikes the outside forearm of the opponent.   The end result will cause the opponent's stike to be passed to their right side, while the defender's arms will end in the open position.

#3 Trunk cut counter 
--------------------
With the defender's left and right hands positioned in the open position, the defender passes, pushes and controls the #3 strike low with their left hand, while the defender's right counter strikes the inside forearm of the opponent.   The end result will cause the opponent's stike to be passed to the their left side, while the defender's arms will be crossed right over left in the closed position.

#4 Trunk cut counter 
--------------------
With the defender's left and right hands positioned in the closed position, the defender passes, pushes and controls the #4 strike low with their left hand, while the defender's right counter strikes the outside forearm of the opponent.   The end result will cause the opponent's stike to be passed to their right side, while the defender's arms will end in the open position.

#5 Thrust
---------
For low trunk trusts, folllow the #3 counter.
For high throat trusts, follow the #1 counter with #3 footwork (see below).

#12 counter
------------
Follow the #2 counter. 

Notes for the basic pattern:
- The left hand of the the defender is the guiding/controlling hand.
- The right hand is the countering hand.
- The basic counter is a slapping strike at first and is used as a introduction to gunting.  More aggressive guntings can be introduced later.
- The defender must properly learn to get out of the path of the weapon.
- The defender must pass and push the weapon from themselves and redirect it to the attacker.
- The defender can use this drill to practice their basic footwork patterns.
- The defender should keep hand changes down to a minimum for the drill.  For the drill, there should be no hand changes except for transitioning from open to closed, and from closed to open.

Here is a basic defender footwork set for this drill:

Based on the "V" - the point of the "V" is the start and transition point.
#1 
----
Right forward takeoff.

#2
---
Transition back, then Left forward takeoff.


Based on "/\" - the point of the "A" is the transition point.

#3
---
Transition back, then take Left retreating step.

#4
---
Transition back, then take Right retreating step.

#5
---
Transition back, then take Left retreating step.

#12
----
- For defensive posture and teaching right "C" step for reset, take Right retreating step.

- Or for a more aggressive posture and to introduce the push step, go from end of #5 position of left retreating, transition left back to apex, then make a right take off.

Though this footwork is not the defacto standard, I recommend trying it because it causes the defender to take all the major 45 degree angles, it teaches the advancing as well as retreating angles, and it can introduce a forward thrusting as well as "C" step footwork in one drill!

Whatever footwork that is chosen must protect the defender and eventually aid the defender to get in a countering position.  All suggestions are welcome.

Post Notes:
- In recent times this drill has been reduced to strikes #1, #2, #3, and #4.
- In recent years, using the single cane against empty hand has not been shown much.  Angles #1, #2, and #12 are translatable, however, for angles #3, #4, and #5, more care is used to control the back of the stick for passing.
- Please always use the proper training and safety equipment when performing this or any drill.
- This drill can be located in the yellow "Modern Arnis" book by GM Remy A. Presas.

Personal note:

- Please feel free to add to this article.

- I will not demonstrate or illustrate in this thread how the defender can use the knife for the counters, if someone wants that liability help yourself.

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Cthulhu (Jun 1, 2004)

We do something very similar, but I tend to go for fingertip rakes or jabs to the eyes rather than the forearm hits.  A little bit trickier w/ the range, but not terribly so.  Fun to play with that drill knife on knife, too.

Cthulhu
babbling...not enough coffee.  Yet.


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## Flatlander (Jun 1, 2004)

So this drill is the same whether attacker  and defender both have sticks, or knives, or if defender is emptyhanded.  Is that correct?  All defenses are passes, not blocks.  Do I have that right?


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## Cruentus (Jun 1, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> So this drill is the same whether attacker  and defender both have sticks, or knives, or if defender is emptyhanded.  Is that correct?  All defenses are passes, not blocks.  Do I have that right?



Yes. It all being the same is an important concept in Modern Arnis.


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## Flatlander (Jun 1, 2004)

Thank you.  I was just shown that one last week, and that's why I asked.  It sounded familiar.  We started with the agressor doing the 12 point strike pattern and the defender doing reinforced blocks, then moved into this flow drill.  I liked it quite a bit.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 1, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Yes. It all being the same is an important concept in Modern Arnis.


Doesn't that violate the reality that one has an edge and good thrusting point and one is simply a blunt weapon that is dangerous to thrust?
Sean


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## Cruentus (Jun 1, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Doesn't that violate the reality that one has an edge and good thrusting point and one is simply a blunt weapon that is dangerous to thrust?
> Sean



Not when you understand it the way we do in Modern Arnis. We differentiate our body positioning, timing, and mechanics of a technique depending on the situation and tools involved. Knowing the differences of, say, a sword and a stick is vitally important. However, the concepts behind the differences in technique is what is "the same." Professor Presas used to say, "It is all the same!" all the time. He would even say things like, "It is all the same, but if it is a sword, he is cut already!" 

To use a practical example, this means that something like my #2 disarm with a throw could work conceptually empty hand vs. stick, stick vs. stick, empty hand vs. knife, etc., etc., however, adjustments would need to be made for each medium. 

I hope that makes sense. Good question, Sean.

 :asian:


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## Flatlander (Jun 7, 2004)

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but anyway...

There is a basic staff form that I've recently learned (the box pattern?) that incorporates 4 movements.  I'm really not sure what it's called.  I've dicovered that the movements are very similar to the double stick "heaven set".  What excites me about this revelation is that I've had trouble with body positioning on the heaven set with trying to generate power on each strike, and this staff form has assisted me in that, since realizing the similarity.  Should this be so?  Does anyone understand the forms that I'm alluding to?


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## Guro Harold (Jun 7, 2004)

Hi FlatLiner,

For this drill, are you targeting the opponent's left temple, right knee, right temple, left knee?

If so, it is similiar to the single sinawali drill used in Modern Arnis and other FMA(s).

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Flatlander (Jun 7, 2004)

Yes!  That's exactly correct.  


also, 



> Hi FlatLiner,


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## Guro Harold (Jun 7, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Yes!  That's exactly correct.
> 
> 
> also,



Hi Flatlander,

Much apologies for mis-typing your name.  Serves me right for trying to sneak a reply on the clock. :lookie: 

Palusut :asian:


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## Flatlander (Jun 7, 2004)

No problems at all sir.  But, back to the question, in the way I generate power on this staff form, is it correct to translate that across to the double stick heaven set?


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## Guro Harold (Jun 7, 2004)

Its hard to tell without seeing the execution, but the body positioning might be different with a staff as compared to single or double stick since they cover different ranges.

Hope this answer is sufficient for now.  I can answer in a more detailed manner after work.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 9, 2004)

I do this drill and teach it was well.

For complete beginners to this drill, our club teaches without the 5 and 12 strikes. Just the 1, 2, 9 & 8 strikes. Then later we add in the 5 & 12 and 10 & 11, and completely mix it up.


Now I have found, that putting a knife in a persons hand at first makes it easier for them to learn this drill, and then translate it back to the single stick, double stick, or empty hand.

Thoughts on this????  :asian:


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2004)

I start with the knife too. I find it makes it easier for people to learn it. I also start off feeding a head-level 3,4 then a mid-level 3,4 at first, then vary the strikes later. Eventually it has to be that they can do it with random strikes.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 10, 2004)

I start with the two head strikes and two trunk strikes as well.

I am reluntant to teach the flow drill at first with the knife since this drill exposes the major veins of attacking arm.  I would really have to feel comfortable about a student's background and temperment.  Especially when you see that this drill really could be renamed as I call it, "The Universal Can Opener"!


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## arnisandyz (Jun 10, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> So this drill is the same whether attacker  and defender both have sticks, or knives, or if defender is emptyhanded.  Is that correct?  All defenses are passes, not blocks.  Do I have that right?



one thing that might be different between doing it with knife vs stick (with the attacker having a stick)...
on #1 strike with knife, left hand passes right hand cuts (gunting) - righthand will be more forward than the left.  With stick right hand might umbrella/shield the attack left hand will be more forward. same with some of the other ones.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 10, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> one thing that might be different between doing it with knife vs stick (with the attacker having a stick)...
> on #1 strike with knife, left hand passes right hand cuts (gunting) - righthand will be more forward than the left.  With stick right hand might umbrella/shield the attack left hand will be more forward. same with some of the other ones.



I agree Andy, actually, repeating #1  and #2 with the payong and umbrella is the payong drill that the Professor taught as he remembered fondly his Grandfather making them do that drill under the nepa (sic) huts so that they would train to stay low.


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## arnisandyz (Jun 10, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> I agree Andy, actually, repeating #1  and #2 with the payong and umbrella is the payong drill that the Professor taught as he remembered fondly his Grandfather making them do that drill under the nepa (sic) huts so that they would train to stay low.



A good solo drill would be to hang a low rope the way boxers practice bob and weave and practice the payong with your footwork going back and forth under the rope advancing and retreating. I find that when new students are right away put with a partner trying to hit them they loose the springing down and up motion and start going only side to side.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 10, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> I start with the two head strikes and two trunk strikes as well.
> 
> I am reluntant to teach the flow drill at first with the knife since this drill exposes the major veins of attacking arm.  I would really have to feel comfortable about a student's background and temperment.  Especially when you see that this drill really could be renamed as I call it, "The Universal Can Opener"!



I explain that this is most definitely a drill and not knife fighting in any manner.
I will even show the student that it is easy to counter, by a more skilled opponent. I just start with the knife to get the basic cutting motion. Then I move back to the stick, and train that for a long time before moving to the knife for aything serious.

Good Points though.
 :asian:


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2004)

Yes, for me using the knife is about starting with a comfortable range--it's not about knife-fighting. For me it's more about how the live hand is controlling and how the body is moving.


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## loki09789 (Jun 10, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, for me using the knife is about starting with a comfortable range--it's not about knife-fighting. For me it's more about how the live hand is controlling and how the body is moving.


So, like the stick in conceptual arts, the knife starts out or stays a training tool first to develop technical skill?   That is how I view it for the most part.  Same with disarms:  they start out as artistic curriculum requirements and later help to teach the gross and fine motor skills to improve or instruct joint locks.


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2004)

For me, the biggest interest in disarms is how they translate to empty-hand vs. stick situations, which I think is very similar to what you're saying.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 10, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I explain that this is most definitely a drill and not knife fighting in any manner.
> I will even show the student that it is easy to counter, by a more skilled opponent. I just start with the knife to get the basic cutting motion. Then I move back to the stick, and train that for a long time before moving to the knife for aything serious.
> 
> Good Points though.
> :asian:



Hi Rich,

Great points.  I was also just sharing my own personal reservations about showing knife techniques due to my increased knowledge of the knife, hearing of occasions when a FMA student have used the knife with lethal force,  and recently that I had teens in my class and want to be careful of what I teach them.

By the way everyone, this drill also works well by substituting the defensive knife with the kubaton and ASP (closed, use a stick for open, your partner will thank you).

For the ASP, you can go from closed to open between the opponent's strikes.

Palusut


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## mcjon77 (Jul 11, 2004)

Hi all,

I just learned flow drill last week (yes, I'm that new to Modern Arnis).  I was wondering why strikes #5 and #12 were removed from the drill., and whether they are reintroduced at a later date.  Also, am I correct in saying that the flow drill is essentially the attacker coming at the defender with a #1, #2, #3 and #4 strikes (and sometimes #5 and #12) and the defender is basiclly just countering with banda y banda?  Even when countering a #12 with an umbrella, can't an umbrella be thought of as a banda y banda at a different angle?

Just Wondering,

Jon


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 11, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> I just learned flow drill last week (yes, I'm that new to Modern Arnis).  I was wondering why strikes #5 and #12 were removed from the drill., and whether they are reintroduced at a later date.  Also, am I correct in saying that the flow drill is essentially the attacker coming at the defender with a #1, #2, #3 and #4 strikes (and sometimes #5 and #12) and the defender is basiclly just countering with banda y banda?  Even when countering a #12 with an umbrella, can't an umbrella be thought of as a banda y banda at a different angle?
> 
> ...



Jon,

The strikes are 1 and 2 and then 9 and 8. 

As to the removal of 5 and 12. GM Remy would sometime remove things to help people learn. As they would learn later he would say and you can also do this, and add in 5 and 12 or any other strike. The concept is that after learnign and doing this drill one should be able to use this against all striking angles.

Just my thoughts and opinions on this subject.

 :asian:


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## Guro Harold (Jul 11, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Even when countering a #12 with an umbrella, can't an umbrella be thought of as a banda y banda at a different angle?
> 
> Just Wondering,
> ...



Hi Jon,

Good point, its discussed in the banda y banda thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14521&page=2&pp=15

Check it out.

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 31, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> - This drill can be located in the yellow "Modern Arnis" book by GM Remy A. Presas.


What page?  I go blind trying to follow something like that without pictures.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Guro Harold (Oct 31, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> What page?  I go blind trying to follow something like that without pictures.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


Hi Dan,

It can be found in Chapter 6.  The drill with sticks can be found starting on page 84.

Best regards,

Harold


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 31, 2004)

Harold,

Thank you , my son.

Yours,
Dan


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## Guro Harold (Oct 31, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Harold,
> 
> Thank you , my son.
> 
> ...


At last, the mystery has been solved.  Our similar features have puzzled me for the last several years!!! :rofl:


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