# Martial Arts Pet Peeves



## dancingalone (Jul 22, 2009)

It's been slow on the boards, so I'll list some of mine.

1.  People who shout 'kiai' or 'kihap' for their kiai/kihap.
2.  Mono tempo pattern performances, where everything is done on a 1-2 count
3.  People who practice a bazillion different forms and it shows by their poor understanding and performance
4.  Everyone has to be a grandmaster or a soke.  I'm always amused by people on forums who feel you are insulting them by calling them 'Mister' or God forbid, 'Sensei' instead of whatever inflated title they feel entitled to.  'Sensei' was good enough for the likes of Chojun Miyagi.  It should be enough for anyone.
5.  Black belt clubs, master clubs, etc.  Here's a novel idea:  just charge a flat monthly fee and teach each student according to their level.  Don't charge extra for a weapons class for Pete's sake.

What are some of yours?


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## KELLYG (Jul 22, 2009)

People that don't pay attention and are disruptive 
People that do not practice good personal hygiene
People that act superior due to rank
Long toe nails/fingernails


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2009)

No effort.


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## d1jinx (Jul 22, 2009)

ok.... I'm going to catch some flack for this but here goes.....
:soapbox:

Loosers in life who took TKD or any other martial art and thought they found thier place in life where they were someone important, walk around with their Black Belt on and dont even know how and the hell to tie it.
:mst::shooter:

YOU GIVE US A BAD NAME

sorry but thats it.


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## terryl965 (Jul 22, 2009)

For me it is a simple one people forgettin that they are not GODS, just a teacher of an Art.


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## Omar B (Jul 22, 2009)

People who don't warm up!  Class is 1 hour, don't waste time by going through 10 minutes of warms ups when everyone above white belt should know what needs to be done.

Also, the title thing bothers me too.  If I'm not calling you Sensei then it's gonna be Sir or Coach, that's all you are getting.  Fancy titles are for certificates and to impress people outside the dojo, inside it's about coaching.


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## Marginal (Jul 22, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> ok.... I'm going to catch some flack for this but here goes.....
> :soapbox:
> 
> Loosers in life who took TKD or any other martial art and thought they found thier place in life where they were someone important, walk around with their Black Belt on and dont even know how and the hell to tie it.
> ...



Just to be sure I've been doing it right... You wear it around the neck like a tie don't you?


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## d1jinx (Jul 22, 2009)

Marginal said:


> Just to be sure I've been doing it right... You wear it around the neck like a tie don't you?


 
yeah with the other end tied to something up high...... lol


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## igillman (Jul 22, 2009)

I thought you wore it round the head like a headband.


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## just2kicku (Jul 22, 2009)

For me it's people who don't practice at home and and miss classes, and then wonder why a year later that they suck


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## TKD_Father (Jul 22, 2009)

Students promoted  when they absolutely don't deserve it.
Students who are disruptive.
Students who only put forth effort when the instructor is watching them.

Instructors who allow items 2 and 3 above.

Masters who are too full of themselves to listen to anyone.


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## ACJ (Jul 22, 2009)

People who have their name written in big letters down their dobok leg. Tacky much?


People who like to jump on every mistake you make, even if you are just quickly showing something.

People who don't show up to class for a month and then try enter the competition on that weekend.


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## zDom (Jul 22, 2009)

 Enthusiastic new people who tell you all about how they LOVE martial arts and then vanish after about a month

 Students who SAY they want to improve but won't train to fix what needs fixin'

 People who think that: rank (automatically) = martial art knowledge

 Working with the hygienically-challenged 

Of course, I've probably been guilty of three out of the above four at some time or another


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## myusername (Jul 22, 2009)

Good idea for a thread.

For me it is;

*People not giving their full attention when doing a drill or set sparring exercise. I absolutely hate it if I am faced with someone more interested in what their friend or the pairing next to us are doing.

*People who can only say negative things about other styles.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 22, 2009)

Not sparring at at least a realistic contact level for at LEAST a short period of EVERY class, or even better, never sparring at all, period.


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## terryl965 (Jul 22, 2009)

Here is another one, people wearing the same unifrom for two three weeks and never ever washing it.


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Here is another one, people wearing the same unifrom for two three weeks and never ever washing it.


Yeah, that's just nasty. We all hate that.


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## phfman (Jul 22, 2009)

Students who insist on wasting class time with "what ifs".


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 22, 2009)

phfman said:


> Students who insist on wasting class time with "what ifs".


 

Solution: Make him _uke_.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jul 22, 2009)

phfman said:


> Students who insist on wasting class time with "what ifs".


 
Ooh, you beat me to that one.

Also, does everyone here get that kid who wants to tell you "that is not how I learned it in boxing."  Meanwhile, the kid is 12 years old, so he spent maybe 3 months in boxing a few years ago.  To make it worse, he is telling you that you should keep your rear hand down, or to punch with your fist NOT closed (or things to that effect).
I am NOT saying that I know best, but if I am teaching a class, I am teaching the way I do things.  Also, I have 18 years of solid experience to back what I personally believe works.  I am not a 10 year old kid who took karate back when he was 4, so he is going to tell the head instructor (me) that I am doing something wrong.
This has happened several times over the years to me.  Just yesterday a kid kept telling me that a move I was showing wouldn't work (I am teaching martial arts at a church day camp during the summer) so I moved everyone back and told him to submit me since he knows so much more than me.  He moved in, grabbed my hand with both of his hands and fell flat on his face trying to pull me over.  I didn't even move.  I just stood there and watched him fall over.  He got up, tried to sweep me and fell over again.  I dropped back and pulled him in front of me and tapped him out with my legs wrapped around his waist and my arms in a typical choke.
I could tell several other similar stories.  I always just give the kid everyone's attention for a few minutes and let him fail miserably trying to take me down (I never hurt them, just let them show how little they know).
MAJOR pet peeve!


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## K31 (Jul 22, 2009)

People who show up for class without their uniform, belt, sparring gear ("Yes we spar the same day every week").  Parents who for God knows why keep bringing their offspring to class even though it's painfully obvious the kid doesn't want to be there.  People who think if they just hang around long enough they should get a belt.  Parents that don't understand that that the Dojang is primarily for the students, not them or their stuff.  People who constantly show up (conveniently, for them) after the warm-up.  Someone already said the dirty uniform them but can you believe coffee stains and not small ones and not just once.  People that disrespect their belt, drag it on the floor, can't tie it, keep losing it.


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## taekwondodo (Jul 22, 2009)

- Kids can't tie their own belt at Red to BB level
- Kids come to class wear dirty uniform
-Adults comes to class with wrinkle uniform
-BB comes to class forget to bring their belt
-Kids comes to form class once and win gold in 2 person division and got a big head when they comes home.


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## goingd (Jul 22, 2009)

1. Almost everything everyone has said so far
2. Masters who cannot spar (not because of physical limitations, but simply because they do not know how)
3. Black belts that are so wide they can fit a school patch on them.
4. All the stories about some kid with a black belt in Taekwondo who thought he could take on some skater punk and got his butt beat. You have no idea how sick I am of hearing that particular story.
5. Parents who expect their unfocused, never disciplined at home four year old to test
6. Taekwondoists who say they know Hapkido, but teach know like three things they saw on youtube.

I could go on forever so I'ma stop... for now.

^~^


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## matt.m (Jul 23, 2009)

Student know - it - alls
Instructors that are too full of self importance to teach correctly
more talking = less practice time duh


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## msmitht (Jul 23, 2009)

Masters who do not teach...they have teens do it 4 them.
grandmasters and masters who do not train.
parents who think that their child is the best and should test when they suck.
students who quit after 1 tournament loss.
inflated egos.
schools that seem to specialize in everything (at least until the next fad)
schools that use the name tkd but are not (yes, I am referring to the wannabee's....you know who you are).
teachers who go to a 2-6 hour seminar in krav maga/hagannah/bjj/mma/etc... and think that they actually know how to teach it.
teachers who give out patches/stickers/awards in every class just to keep them coming back.
4-8 year old black belts....it is just too young people. I don't care how good they are. Even if they have been training since they were 3.
and finally....when a 16-18 year old 4th dan comes in and asks me why I did not stop class to bow to him. After all, by kkw standards he is a master (of course he does not have a kkw cert) and has trained for 6-8 years and that is what they do at his grandmasters school (a 34 year old 8th dan...LOL)
For a good laugh check out youtube and search "Sky Martial Arts". I ran across a belt testing video of theirs from june....LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 23, 2009)

phfman said:


> Students who insist on wasting class time with "what ifs".



Doh! You beat me to it too.


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## d1jinx (Jul 23, 2009)

OMG...............:barf:

I Cannot believe what i just watched.  Are you serious.  Is this what we have representing TKD?  

I just watched the youtube video that *msmitht* was speaking of.




 
:duh:ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!

And the sad thing is, a few of them show "some" potential.  They are attemping to do Taeguek forms which means they more than likely are going to issue KKW certs to those lucky students.:barf:

Sad.  so sad.  This is why TKD is loosing credability.  :rpo:


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## msmitht (Jul 23, 2009)

I thought it was sad. Their GM is out of Los Angles. on the Website he is listed as a KKW 9th dan...among many other things. It is almost a guarantee that they will get kkw certs.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 23, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> OMG...............:barf:
> 
> I Cannot believe what i just watched. Are you serious. Is this what we have representing TKD?
> 
> ...


 
I thought I was watching the sequal to "The Foot Fist Way." LOL The instructor does kinda favor the guy in the moive...and the students..

Anyway...

I'd have to echo that I hate people that don't wash their gi and smell like hot garbage.


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## girlbug2 (Jul 23, 2009)

Ah yes, the Legend of Smelly Gi Guy! He does get around.


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## miguksaram (Jul 23, 2009)

Parent pet peeves of martial arts:

- Parents who expect me to be the sole disciplinarian in the kid's life.
- Same parents who are upset when you do discipline their kid.
- Drive by drop offs of 5-7 year olds 30 minutes before class
- Parents who pick up those same kids 30 minutes or more after the class has ended
- Parents who wonder after a 2 years why their child isn't a black belt yet their friend/neighbor/cousin who takes it down the road is almost 2nd dan after 1.5 years
- Parents who argue with you on how you are teaching
- Sideline coaching from parents DURING class


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## igillman (Jul 23, 2009)

Not doing proper push ups. We have lots of kids who say they can do 100 push ups and then demonstrate either "arm twitching" or "head bobbing".


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## terryl965 (Jul 23, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Parent pet peeves of martial arts:
> 
> - Parents who expect me to be the sole disciplinarian in the kid's life.
> - Same parents who are upset when you do discipline their kid.
> ...


 
I can only agree with everything that you mention.


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## Jphtkd (Jul 23, 2009)

Parents who don't pay attention to the calendar that we mail out, the flyers we pass out in class, and the posters in the window all saying the day that we are going to be closed. They then get upset when they show up on the day/time and there are no classes going on. 

"Nobody told me there would not be class"


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## Marginal (Jul 23, 2009)

Random weapons annoy me. 

"We train TKD!" 
Ok... Why are you waving a katana/"numb chuck" around then?


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## goingd (Jul 23, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> Parents who don't pay attention to the calendar that we mail out, the flyers we pass out in class, and the posters in the window all saying the day that we are going to be closed. They then get upset when they show up on the day/time and there are no classes going on.
> 
> "Nobody told me there would not be class"



I... just had that happen. Signs were all around the community center ALL WEEK saying all classes were canceled for the next week. I even made an announcement twice that week after class. Still, like five parents showed up and complained that I did not tell them it would be closed. It took one parent remembering on her own and admitting her mistake to defend me... *sigh* This is why I will not teach full time.


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## MadMartigan (Jun 4, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> It's been slow on the boards, so I'll list some of mine.
> 
> 1. People who shout 'kiai' or 'kihap' for their kiai/kihap.
> 2. Mono tempo pattern performances, where everything is done on a 1-2 count
> ...


Lots of good ones already. One I didn't see was one of mine.
Parents who are in the fitness industry. 

A 7 year old comes in and says 'my mom says you're supposed to do it this way'. It's just so helpful.


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## J. Pickard (Jun 17, 2021)

Oh man, there are so many. My top 5 have to be
5. arguing over how to do a technique "correctly" and not understanding that there may be more than one way.
4. devalued black belts that think their black belt is the same as any other black belt, i.e. getting a black belt after a year or so just because you showed up and paid for class but don't actually have a higher understanding of your art than a middle rank vs someone who had to prove their knowledge and understanding after years and years of serious training (not all black belts are equal).
3. People who equate tricking and TKD dance to actual martial arts. Tricking and TKD dance is cool as hell and takes a lot of skill but it is definitely not a martial art.
2. Martial arts cults (and there are sooo many).
1. People who don't train seriously and then ask for a belt or ask why they haven't tested yet.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 18, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> 4. devalued black belts that think their black belt is the same as any other black belt, i.e. getting a black belt after a year or so just because you showed up and paid for class but don't actually have a higher understanding of your art than a middle rank vs someone who had to prove their knowledge and understanding after years and years of serious training (not all black belts are equal).


I strangely agree with parts of this "not all black belts are equal" but disagree with others (e.g. comparison to a "middle rank"). I think it comes from my belief (inline with Kukkiwon) that 1st Dan is a beginner rank. I think over inflation of what a 1st Dan is, that's the problem, and requiring years and years of training to achieve this beginner rank (although at our dojang 3 years is pretty common).


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 18, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I strangely agree with parts of this "not all black belts are equal" but disagree with others (e.g. comparison to a "middle rank"). I think it comes from my belief (inline with Kukkiwon) that 1st Dan is a beginner rank. I think over inflation of what a 1st Dan is, that's the problem, and requiring years and years of training to achieve this beginner rank (although at our dojang 3 years is pretty common).


Agreed. Rank means what it means within a given school or system. No more, no less. To you, a 1st Dan in 3 years (or less) is no big deal. Because it's a beginner rank. To us, a 1st Dan in 6-8 years is much more reasonable, because it's a teaching rank. 
And when you consider the possibility that a given person has prior training, those time frames can drop drastically. I'm willing to bet that if I didn't already have KKW rank, I could learn the KKW 1st Dan curriculum in a couple of months. Likewise, I'm willing to bet you could learn our curriculum in a similarly short time frame.


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## donald1 (Jun 18, 2021)

I LOVE asking what ifs... making me an uke will not slow my what if questions. Albeit I do try limit them, and haven't asked any in a while... Also important not to interrupt the instructor.

One of my pet peeves, blocking at the wrist. Doesnt piss me off or anything but don't like it. I always go for the forearm. Block my wrist and my elbow whips around for the win, but I'm not supposed to do that since were training, plus I don't like hurting people anyways. Except for occasional bruises...

One of my pet peeves when teaching kids, immaturity. Kids acting up... the obvious solution is have them sit out for a bit but I hate being that guy even when its completely justified.

I don't think I've ever met immature adults... I have no doubt they exist but I haven't seen any in my dojo.

Honestly... it's hard to think about pet peeves. It bothers me a little when you tell people to kiai loud and they don't...  or just outright don't kiai at all.  I don't think I have much in the way of actual pet peeves.


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## Buka (Jun 18, 2021)

I never saw this thread before, it was before my time here. But I sure do like it.

My pet peeves have changed over the years, as the Martial Arts have changed. My biggest used to be "cult" like Martial Organizations. They used to weasel money out of people who were just trying to be part of something they thought was good. Big money. I'm talking fifty to a hundred grand to video tape them and send the tape to the "Master overseas". Who, of course, said "Excellent potential, enroll him in the Master course."...for another fifty to a hundred grand.

I called the Feds on a couple of them, helped them investigate and shut them down, then prosecute.

I don't know if there's any cult stuff anymore, but they were my biggest pet peeve. I still hate them, can't let it go.

Now I have different pet peeves!


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## Buka (Jun 18, 2021)

D Hall said:


> Lots of good ones already. One I didn't see was one of mine.
> Parents who are in the fitness industry.
> 
> A 7 year old comes in and says 'my mom says you're supposed to do it this way'. It's just so helpful.


It would be one thing if she were correct. But I have yet to see that be so. 

And - if she thought her child was doing something incorrect through improper instruction....and was too lazy or didn't care enough to actually come down and see for herself...

I've not had that particular thing happen, but if I did I'd give her child a note to take back to her inviting her down so we could discuss it.

Parents are great most times. But when they're not, what a royal pain in the backside.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 18, 2021)

D Hall said:


> Lots of good ones already. One I didn't see was one of mine.
> Parents who are in the fitness industry.
> 
> A 7 year old comes in and says 'my mom says you're supposed to do it this way'. It's just so helpful.


Knowing kids, I'd give the benefit of the doubt here. There's a good chance that the mom had either been doing an exercise herself and the kid asked and got a response like "this is how I do it" rather than explaining the finer points of variations, or heard some comment that they misheard. Or were doing an exercise, their mom didn't know they were told to do it that way and made an adjustment. Or any number of things, really, kids are not all that reliable as messengers.


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## Buka (Jun 19, 2021)

A pet peeve of mine is anyone teaching Martial Arts, be it traditional Martial Arts or non traditional Martial Arts, allowing disrespect among their students or fighters in their dojo, gym or whatever.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 19, 2021)

Buka said:


> A pet peeve of mine is anyone teaching Martial Arts, be it traditional Martial Arts or non traditional Martial Arts, allowing disrespect among their students or fighters in their dojo, gym or whatever.


I have refrained from listing my pet peeves as the list would be too long and I would be known as a cranky old traditional sensei (For the record, I am not cranky, just demanding.)  

But to comment on this post, I have rarely seen serious disrespect in any dojo I've been in (probably not as many as you but I've seen my share.)  _Certainly not ever_ in one where I was teaching.

I've mostly associated with the kinds of dojo where the instructor would smack down (sometimes _literally_) anyone who did not show respect to the school, teacher or student.  So, perhaps my experience is limited. From past posts, Buka, I think you are understating your feelings on this topic by calling it a "pet peeve."  For me, it would be a deal breaker.  That's the one rule I brook no deviation from.

(Maybe I am a _little_ cranky.)


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## punisher73 (Jun 21, 2021)

My biggest pet peeves are very close to another when I have been at events and teaching with other students within the organization, but not my own class/students.

1) "I Know..."  any time you try to give input or feedback to a student and they just want to do it their own way (usually happens at events where there are other students.
2) I already know that:  When you go to work on something and they are to closed minded to open it up.

The biggest one...."that's not how I learned it....."


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## Balrog (Jun 23, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> It's been slow on the boards, so I'll list some of mine.
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> What are some of yours?


My biggest peeve is people being promoted that shouldn't be.  I'll judge at tournaments and see someone in a Black Belt ring do a form and I'll ask myself, "Why is this person still not a Yellow Belt?"

My second is XMA.  I think that speaks for itself.


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## J. Pickard (Jun 29, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I strangely agree with parts of this "not all black belts are equal" but disagree with others (e.g. comparison to a "middle rank"). I think it comes from my belief (inline with Kukkiwon) that 1st Dan is a beginner rank. I think over inflation of what a 1st Dan is, that's the problem, and requiring years and years of training to achieve this beginner rank (although at our dojang 3 years is pretty common).


This bothers me just a bit, when TKD started Black belts was an advanced level. What was black belt in the 70's is like 4th Dan now a days. But I guess that all depends on what your definition of a black belt is and I will concede that it is okay for everyone to have their own definition.


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## J. Pickard (Jun 29, 2021)

Buka said:


> I never saw this thread before, it was before my time here. But I sure do like it.
> 
> My pet peeves have changed over the years, as the Martial Arts have changed. My biggest used to be "cult" like Martial Organizations. They used to weasel money out of people who were just trying to be part of something they thought was good. Big money. I'm talking fifty to a hundred grand to video tape them and send the tape to the "Master overseas". Who, of course, said "Excellent potential, enroll him in the Master course."...for another fifty to a hundred grand.
> 
> ...


The cults still exist, just most people don't realize it until they have already spent their life savings.


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## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2021)

donald1 said:


> I LOVE asking what ifs... making me an uke will not slow my what if questions. Albeit I do try limit them, and haven't asked any in a while... Also important not to interrupt the instructor.
> 
> One of my pet peeves, blocking at the wrist. Doesnt piss me off or anything but don't like it. I always go for the forearm. Block my wrist and my elbow whips around for the win, but I'm not supposed to do that since were training, plus I don't like hurting people anyways. Except for occasional bruises...
> 
> ...



Children aren't immature, they are children, with children's brains and behaviour patterns. They aren't immature adults. They act up because they are children, perhaps when teaching children adapt the classes to them rather than have them messing around. There's a reason teachers have to train to teach children, the psychology is different, attention spans are different, they way they learn is different from adults. It's a wonderful thing to inspire children and they will pay you back a hundredfold.

I'd also check if they actually want to be there, or the parents. Not the child's fault if they don't want to be there but they will respond better if you are understanding.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 29, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> This bothers me just a bit, when TKD started Black belts was an advanced level. What was black belt in the 70's is like 4th Dan now a days. But I guess that all depends on what your definition of a black belt is and I will concede that it is okay for everyone to have their own definition.


When Taekwondo started in Korea, black belt was seen as a pretty beginner rank. I don't think Korea has reduced the time before black belt, I think it's been consistently about a year. For example GM Park Hae-man did about 6 months of Taekwondo before the Korean War, then when the war ended (July 1953) he resumed/restarted training. He was promoted to 1st Dan in 1954.

Maybe when some early masters moved internationally, they built up what a black belt meant, expected more from their students (to make them more desirable?), but in Korea I think it's always been viewed as the first step on a lifetime's journey.

For what it's worth, Taekwondo isn't alone in this. Funakoshi Gichin Sensei promoted his first group of Shotokan Karate students to 1st Dan after about 18 months of training. Kano Jigoro Sensei promoted his first group of Judo students to 1st Dan after just over 1 year.


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## MadMartigan (Jun 29, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> For what it's worth, Taekwondo isn't alone in this. Funakoshi Gichin Sensei promoted his first group of Shotokan Karate students to 1st Dan after about 18 months of training. Kano Jigoro Sensei promoted his first group of Judo students to 1st Dan after just over 1 year.


With no disrespect intended, I do not believe these are comparable examples to today's timeframes. In the examples you cited, these were mostly experienced military men, training nearly full time under harsh conditions with high expectations. You can become pretty darn good at most skills under those circumstances.

To take that time frame and apply it to the recreational student who trains 3-4 hours a week (on padded floors, with air conditioning, and skips class on holidays) will never produce the same product. (Why I generally consider 4-5 years a minimum for an adult student to reach this level).

This I think is the disconnect. I agree that 1st Dan was/is a "beginner" rank then and now... I just think their definition of beginner was less charitable than the current standard in too many places (hence my agreement to this being a pet peeve of mine as well).

Edit
... Now if someone was to train as they did then for 18 months... I'd likely have no issue with them reaching 1st Dan that soon. They'd probably have earned it


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## donald1 (Jun 30, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Children aren't immature, they are children, with children's brains and behaviour patterns. They aren't immature adults. They act up because they are children, perhaps when teaching children adapt the classes to them rather than have them messing around. There's a reason teachers have to train to teach children, the psychology is different, attention spans are different, they way they learn is different from adults. It's a wonderful thing to inspire children and they will pay you back a hundredfold.
> 
> I'd also check if they actually want to be there, or the parents. Not the child's fault if they don't want to be there but they will respond better if you are understanding.


Immature was a poor choice of words. 

On average in my limited experience,  they weren't too difficult to teach, but some students were trickier. 

Based on your post you sound like your really good at teaching kids. 

I have no clue what to tell a kid that doesn't want to be there. The frustrating part is when they don't follow instructions, it can sometimes rub off on other students. 

How do you deal with students that don't want to be there? 

I haven't instructed  kids in a while nor do I see myself doing it any time soon but I'm curious though.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 30, 2021)

D Hall said:


> In the examples you cited, these were mostly experienced military men, training nearly full time under harsh conditions with high expectations.


Are you sure?



> When he finally came to Japan, from Okinawa, in 1922, he stayed among his own people at the prefectural students’ dormitory at Suidobata, Tokyo. He lived in a small room beside the entrance and would clean the dormitory during the day when the students were in their classes and work erands as a gardener too. At night, he would teach them karate.


-- Gichin Funakoshi Sensei Informal Biography

So his first students were literal students, training part time... Let's go to Judo:

Mitsuyo Maeda - Wikipedia - Mitsuyo was a student when he started to learn Judo from Kano Sensei
Yokoyama Sakujiro - Wikipedia - Yokoyama was in the police when he first started to learn
Kyuzo Mifune - Wikipedia - Kyuzo was an U14 student
Tomita Tsunejirō - Wikipedia - No mention of him being a military man?

Don't get me wrong, it's more of a romantic thought to think these were all hardcore elite athletes when they started and were training 18 hours a day, so their black belt was much harder - but the reality is that the asian mindset is that 1st Dan is a beginner rank.


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## MadMartigan (Jun 30, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> 
> -- Gichin Funakoshi Sensei Informal Biography
> ...


I'd love to continue this vein of conversation... but feel like we're skewing off topic for this thread.
If you don't mind, I'll start a new thread to follow this rabbit hole


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## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2021)

donald1 said:


> Immature was a poor choice of words.
> 
> On average in my limited experience,  they weren't too difficult to teach, but some students were trickier.
> 
> ...


I'm always honest with children, I do teach them plus I'm a Girl Guide leader taking girls from 5-14. 
I tell the kids who don't want to be there that I understand, but if we make the best of it together it won't be as bad as they think, I make the classes as interesting and fun as I can, trying to make it as personal as I can for each one. The ones who want to grade or get on I give harder things to or ask them to teach a technique I know they are good at to a couple of others, I also teach them how to teach. The ones that don't want to be there I will find something for them which will engage them, there's always something that will do it. Might be bag of pad work, or I'll give them something to be responsible for,  perhaps making sure a new child has a buddy or I'll ask them to help me teach. 

Ten years or so ago, most of our children had a parent on deployment in Afghanistan. It was hard, we also had adult students there. Two didn't come back. Everyone knew someone who was injured or killed, whenever a communications blackout happened, we all held our breath, then the news would come. Always the worst.
The children were and are brave, but they needed support which was provided by schools, clubs and the army units. In our club we gave them the chance to let off steam in a constructive (to us as martial artists) way, we noticed at the start that if they sparred it got very physical so we got some of our MMA fighters in to spar with the kids who then could go really hard and let their feelings out, the  boys especially missed wrestling around with dad. ( It sharpened up the fighters no end!) The fighters taught them techniques from MMA they could use for self defence as well. The trick then and now, is to always be honest with children, if you don't know something say so, they are brilliant BS detectors, don't talk down to them, talk to them as you would an adult but keeping it age appropriate. Children are wonderful conversationalists, they have an interesting take on life. They respond to genuine enthusiasm someone has for a subject, the false cheerleading hype and hi five 'good job' stuff is awful. Kids know if you tell them they are good and they aren't, they don't trust you after that but if you can tell them they are trying hard and help them get it they will, however sometimes the technique doesn't actually work for them and you have to tell them that.

I don't get kids messing around more than once or twice, thanks to my previous military training and the day job I had at the time I was used to making adults do as they were asked/told lol, so I have a look that says behave.  ( I am THAT teacher who walks into a classroom and it goes quiet) To be honest though, keep the kids occupied with something they enjoy and they won't mess, allow for a silly five minutes every so often so everyone can have  a laugh, a pile on the senior instructors works lol or a silly game. If you like children and enjoy their company (that basically means being a big kid at heart) it will be quite easy.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jul 1, 2021)

Oh *LORD *forgive me for what I am about to do:

-Inflexible people who try advanced kicks in sparring and end up kicking me right in the nuts. Either stick to hand techniques or stretch more.
-Someone thinking their organization is superior to the others. There is a medical term for this and I think we all know what it is.
-Tang Soo Do people who don't understand that their art is based on a Japanese one, not a Chinese one.
-"Self defense" training without the physical conditioning to go along with it. Plenty of people don't realize that self defense techniques aren't a special weapon that any untrained person can use; you actually have to be somewhat capable to use them correctly.
-Anyone who boasts to be able to "kick someone's butt." In my experience, these people either a.) can't or b.) lack the mental or physical ability to even initiate a physical confrontation. Laughing these folks off usually works. 
-Any parent who thinks their 7 year old who got a black belt in 2 years and can do acrobatic Taekwondo techniques can "kick someone's butt." Word of advice: they are not and this is a horrible attitude to have, both for you and for them. Like the previous point, simply laughing at this horrendous behavior is the best way to deal with it.
-People who "shhh" with each technique when they do kata. This isn't a library. Please stop.
-WMAA Chung Do Kwan. If you don't know what this is, I urge you not to find out.
-Defending yourself against a violent attacker and being labeled as the bad guy afterward.
-Anything that involves doing Kanku-Dai repeatedly. My poor lungs. x_x


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

Balrog said:


> My biggest peeve is people being promoted that shouldn't be.  I'll judge at tournaments and see someone in a Black Belt ring do a form and I'll ask myself, "Why is this person still not a Yellow Belt?"
> 
> My second is XMA.  I think that speaks for itself.


XMA doesn't bother me - it's just not closely related to what I do. Just like cardio-kickboxing doesn't bother me.

But I'm with you on the questionable promotions. I attended a final testing for a BB once (in the NGAA, the final test is usually a "defense line", where the student faces 120 attacks). The testee fell a few times, bumbled through some responses, and generally looked about 2 ranks below ready for that test. I suspect a good bit of it was nerves, but if the test is meant to be a test, he should have failed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2021)

donald1 said:


> Immature was a poor choice of words.


I think it's an appropriate term, if we use its actual original meaning (basically, not fully developed) ratther than reading it as a pejorative. That a sapling is an immature tree is a reasonable statement, and a child is an immature human. But Tez does make a good point about how we should approach them. It's the reason I don't much like to teach kids - I'm not good at adapting classes for those below teenage development.


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 1, 2021)

igillman said:


> Not doing proper push ups. We have lots of kids who say they can do 100 push ups and then demonstrate either "arm twitching" or "head bobbing".


Or some bizarre form of twerking.


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## Tez3 (Jul 1, 2021)

RTKDCMB said:


> Or some bizarre form of twerking.



Not their fault though, they need to be taught properly.


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## J. Pickard (Jul 10, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> When Taekwondo started in Korea, black belt was seen as a pretty beginner rank. I don't think Korea has reduced the time before black belt, I think it's been consistently about a year. For example GM Park Hae-man did about 6 months of Taekwondo before the Korean War, then when the war ended (July 1953) he resumed/restarted training. He was promoted to 1st Dan in 1954.
> 
> Maybe when some early masters moved internationally, they built up what a black belt meant, expected more from their students (to make them more desirable?), but in Korea I think it's always been viewed as the first step on a lifetime's journey.
> 
> For what it's worth, Taekwondo isn't alone in this. Funakoshi Gichin Sensei promoted his first group of Shotokan Karate students to 1st Dan after about 18 months of training. Kano Jigoro Sensei promoted his first group of Judo students to 1st Dan after just over 1 year.


I think it was already mentioned, but I don't think that's a good comparison. When TKD started it was, if I'm not mistaken, mostly military men or serious students that trained everyday for hours on end. Compare that to most students who go to 2-3 hours of class a week and do little solo training at home. According to "A Killing Art" there was controversy over some of the black belts Choi handed out in the 70's because those people were not knowledgeable enough to be experts in TKD. When teaching TSD during the Korean war, 1st Dan black belts were considered experts. During in the early pre TKD days of the original kwans both Byung Jik Ro (Song Moo Kwan), Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan) were only 1st dan (some sources say Lee was 3rd dan so who knows for sure) when they started teaching in Korea and both were considered experts. I think the time to get 1st dan has stayed the same but the quality of training has not.


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## andyjeffries (Jul 11, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> I think it was already mentioned, but I don't think that's a good comparison. When TKD started it was, if I'm not mistaken, mostly military men or serious students that trained everyday for hours on end.



It depends who you believe and what you mean by founded. If you mean Taekwondo overall, then no, it was mostly a civilian pursuit by people that had occupations or studies to perform.

If you believe Gen Choi founded Taekwondo, then his particular branch was military in nature. I would assume some of his students were training every day for hours on end, but I would assume others had actual roles to fulfil in the military. 



J. Pickard said:


> Compare that to most students who go to 2-3 hours of class a week and do little solo training at home. According to "A Killing Art" there was controversy over some of the black belts Choi handed out in the 70's because those people were not knowledgeable enough to be experts in TKD.



A Killing Art itself is designed to be controversial, so I'm not surprised. General Choi committed treason (whether you feel that's right or wrong isn't important here), and was exiled from Korea. Yet Alex Gillis always uses his title of General in a respectful manner, but when referring to Dr Kim, Un-yong instead of calling him "Dr Kim" he constantly uses "Mickey Kim", his nickname from when he worked in the Korean intelligence service.

He also goes on and on about how Taekwondo was founded in the Korean equivalent of Geisha houses. Now, sure in these days that would be controversial, but at those times it was completely normal and to be expected.



J. Pickard said:


> When teaching TSD during the Korean war, 1st Dan black belts were considered experts.



Sorry, do you have a reference for their consideration as experts? Or maybe the fact they were teaching meant simply they needed more teachers than they had?



J. Pickard said:


> During in the early pre TKD days of the original kwans both Byung Jik Ro (Song Moo Kwan), Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan) were only 1st dan (some sources say Lee was 3rd dan so who knows for sure)



I'm sure there's a record somewhere. Japanese were fanatical about records of promotions and I've seen really early Korean grading records in the Kukkiwon museum.



J. Pickard said:


> when they started teaching in Korea and both were considered experts. I think the time to get 1st dan has stayed the same but the quality of training has not.



I wonder if maybe the meaning of "1st Dan" has remained the same - "competent beginner" - just that the earlier ones, if your assertion of long training days is true, happened to be way above the level required. Food for thought.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 11, 2021)

Martial Arts Pet Peeves​
People teaching Chinese Martial Arts who have their students, and everyone else, call then Shigong

They think it means Grand Master, but it doesn't. It means teacher's teacher so basically they are saying they taught their teacher who then taught them.

Also, there is no such thing as a Traditional Chinese Martial Arts teacher in China using the title grand master if they are dealing with Chinese students or other Chinese martial artists or if they are honest.


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## yak sao (Jul 11, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Not their fault though, they need to be taught properly.


I agree....proper twerking is important.


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## Tez3 (Jul 12, 2021)

yak sao said:


> I agree....proper twerking is important.


I hate twerking and those who can do it............. I can't and am very jealous. 😂


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## Steve (Jul 12, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Not their fault though, they need to be taught properly.


And now I have a visual of Tez3 teaching a bunch of kids how to twerk: "Kids, it's in the legs, not the hips.  I'll show you again...."


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## Flying Crane (Jul 12, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Martial Arts Pet Peeves​
> People teaching Chinese Martial Arts who have their students, and everyone else, call then Shigong
> 
> They think it means Grand Master, but it doesn't. It means teacher's teacher so basically they are saying they taught their teacher who then taught them.
> ...


You beat me to it.  What is worse is when they are teaching a non-Chinese method, or one with only tenuous or dubious claim to being Chinese and they insist on being called Sigung.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 12, 2021)

The demand for loyalty and respect can be a little much.  E.g., I should feel prviledged to be able to pay $900 to test for black belt.  

It can get worse of course. "The first sexual assault took place in May 2015, when the complainant was 15, she testified. While in his office, Lim asked her to kiss him and when she walked away, he pulled her back, pressed her against a wall and kissed her, she said. The coach told her this would make her more comfortable with him and she should trust him, she said"









						Former Canadian Olympic taekwondo coach convicted of sexually assaulting student
					

A high-level taekwondo coach gradually took control of a teenage student's life, abusing his position of trust as he began a years-long stretch of escalating sexual assaults that culminated in rape, a Toronto judge ruled Thursday.




					www.cp24.com


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 12, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You beat me to it.  What is worse is when they are teaching a non-Chinese method, or one with only tenuous or dubious claim to being Chinese and they insist on being called Sigung.



There is a guy, on the seminar circuit, who has everyone call him Sigong...I tired to explain to him and one of his students later that it does not mean grandmaster, it means teachers teacher....they both insisted the way they were using it was different....how? The characters are 师公...and the meaning is pretty well written in stone.....also told them about the whole grandmaster thing on mainland China...they insisted I did not understand the way THEY were using it...to which I said...yes I do...you're using it incorrectly.... I gave up and walked away

Cantonese sigung 师公
Mandarin shī gōng 师公
both mean master's master or teahcers teacher.

I am honestly waiting for the day one of these folks finds 师太公 Sitaigung (M. shī tài gōng) and starts using it on themselves..... that means master's master's master... but they will think Great Grand Master and run with it


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## _Simon_ (Jul 13, 2021)

The misuse of the term "Tabata" in martial arts classes, and in general to be honest...

"OKAY everyone, we're gonna do a 30-45 minute Tabata workout!"

I can guarantee you, if you're doing 30-45 minutes of "Tabata" protocol you would NOT be going for 30minutes, let alone 10! They..... are...... BRUTAL.

Maybe this is more of a general peeve with the usage of that... 🤣


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## andyjeffries (Jul 13, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> The misuse of the term "Tabata" in martial arts classes, and in general to be honest...
> 
> "OKAY everyone, we're gonna do a 30-45 minute Tabata workout!"
> 
> ...


I heard a quote that was attributed to Dr Izumi Tabata saying "If you can do this set of exercises twice in a row, you didn't do it hard enough the first time". I was never able to find proof he said it, but if you look at the original study it was elite level athletes going at absolute maximum intensity. Described in the original paper it was 170% VO2 max. Tabata training: one of the most energetically effective high-intensity intermittent training methods - The Journal of Physiological Sciences

Good luck doing that for 30 minutes and not dying!


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## Steve (Jul 13, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Martial Arts Pet Peeves​
> People teaching Chinese Martial Arts who have their students, and everyone else, call then Shigong
> 
> They think it means Grand Master, but it doesn't. It means teacher's teacher so basically they are saying they taught their teacher who then taught them.
> ...


Are you talking about Chinese people teaching in China? Or Americans teaching in America?  For me, it would make a difference.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> Are you talking about Chinese people teaching in China? Or Americans teaching in America?  For me, it would make a difference.



American teachers or for that matter European teachers, teaching. Not in China as far as sigung/shigong goes. And both of thse mean teacher's teacher or master's master. So having students call you sigung you are saying I taught my teacher who taught me. 

As for China, there are no grandmasters in China and if there were it is not sigung/shigong. The only was you will find a Chinese martial arts teacher in China, and probably taiwan too, using the term grandmaster is if they have a lot of foreign students with no Chinese students in the class


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## _Simon_ (Jul 13, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I heard a quote that was attributed to Dr Izumi Tabata saying "If you can do this set of exercises twice in a row, you didn't do it hard enough the first time". I was never able to find proof he said it, but if you look at the original study it was elite level athletes going at absolute maximum intensity. Described in the original paper it was 170% VO2 max. Tabata training: one of the most energetically effective high-intensity intermittent training methods - The Journal of Physiological Sciences
> 
> Good luck doing that for 30 minutes and not dying!


Yeah exactly haha... Tabata is NOT just interval training. Having done Tabata protocol with sprints (as close as I can get to it, as the original setup is very controlled and on a stationary bike), 4 minutes of it as recommended (8x20s work, 10s rest), I don't know if I've ever felt the things I felt... 🤣


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> American teachers or for that matter European teachers, teaching. Not in China as far as sigung/shigong goes. And both of thse mean teacher's teacher or master's master. So having students call you sigung you are saying I taught my teacher who taught me.
> 
> As for China, there are no grandmasters in China and if there were it is not sigung/shigong. The only was you will find a Chinese martial arts teacher in China, and probably taiwan too, using the term grandmaster is if they have a lot of foreign students with no Chinese students in the class


I hear you.  This doesn't bother me too much, personally.  Depends on how it's done and why.  I can see why it bugs you, though.


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