# Curious About Ninjitsu.....info?



## ilhe4e12345 (Aug 28, 2012)

Hello all,

I have been lurking in the Chinese Martial Arts forum for awhile and after thinking about it i just wanted to ask some people that train in it.....what it actually is? I understand (atleast I think I do) that "ninja" isnt just fighting but so many other aspects such as survival, weather study, stealth and poisons and things but I have always been curious about the martial art of being a ninja...or ninjutsu. I really have no idea waht im looking for but I know I dont have anything local when it comes to teachers .....so does anyone have any information on the martial art aspects of ninjutus? 

My current backround is 5+ years of Praying Mantis Kung Fu, a years worth of Wing Chun, a little Bagua and some Hsing-I. I just wanted to see and understand the art an compare to what I already know....I always thought it would be neat to study but due to my area that is not possible (atleast not that I can find). 

Please dont think I am flaming or insulting....I just dont know anything about it and want to know more. Where should a novice such as myself begin when researching ninjutsu? Any help would be great as I always love reading about and learning more martial arts information 

Happy Training


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## Aiki Lee (Aug 28, 2012)

Ninjutsu as an art traditionally dealt with the more subtle aspects of war such as sabotage, intelligence gathering, spread of mis-information, spying and counter spying, and such other things. In fiction, ninja are often presented as assassins though there is little evidence to show that there were a lot of assassinations carried out by ninja. 

According to Hatsumi Masaaki the traditional skills needed by ninja were:

_Seishinteki ky&#333;y&#333;_ (spiritual refinement)
_Taijutsu_ (unarmed combat)
_Kenjutsu_ (sword techniques)
_B&#333;jutsu_ (stick and staff techniques)
_S&#333;jutsu_ (spear techniques)
_Naginatajutsu_ (_naginata_ techniques)
_Kusarigamajutsu_ (_kusarigama_ techniques)
_Shurikenjutsu_ (throwing weapons techniques)
_Kayakujutsu_ (pyrotechnics)
_Hens&#333;jutsu_ (disguise and impersonation)
_Shinobi-iri_ (stealth and entering methods)
_Bajutsu_ (horsemanship)
_Sui-ren_ (water training)
_B&#333;ryaku_ (tactics)
_Ch&#333;h&#333;_ (espionage)
_Intonjutsu_ (escaping and concealment)
_Tenmon_ (meteorology)
_Chi-mon_ (geography)


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## garet jax (Aug 28, 2012)

ilhe4e12345 said:


> Where should a novice such as myself begin when researching ninjutsu?




If you are actually serious about researching _ninjutsu_, I&#8217;m afraid that there aren&#8217;t too many reliable resources currently available to the general public. You could check out books by Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi and Dr. Kacem Zoughari to start out with.

As far as instruction is concerned, the only people claiming to actually teach _ninjutsu_ are fraudulent. The &#8220;big three&#8221; organizations that have legitimate ties to _ninjutsu_ in their curriculum are the Bujinkan, the Jinenkan, and the Genbukan. If you are serious about learning, then your best bet would be to seek out an instructor that suits your needs from one of these .

One little caveat: be warned now that what you discover in a dojo being represented as &#8220;_ninjutsu_&#8221; may be anything but. Anyone can throw shuriken at a stationary object , have their students line up in rows mechanically performing rolls and breakfalls, employ shuko to catch a sword blade, or wear black do gi and tabi. That doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean the instruction you are receiving has anything to do whatsoever with authentic _ninjutsu_. The trappings of what many perceive as &#8220;_ninjutsu_&#8221; are merely the skim of its teeth; toys employed to ensnare the curious and substantiate the pathological. _Ninjutsu_ does exist within the confines of legitimate teachings available, but not necessarily in the most obvious and easily understandable forms. Good instructors will be hard to come by in this regard.

Mark Spada


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## Chris Parker (Aug 29, 2012)

ilhe4e12345 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have been lurking in the Chinese Martial Arts forum for awhile and after thinking about it i just wanted to ask some people that train in it.....what it actually is? I understand (atleast I think I do) that "ninja" isnt just fighting but so many other aspects such as survival, weather study, stealth and poisons and things but I have always been curious about the martial art of being a ninja...or ninjutsu. I really have no idea waht im looking for but I know I dont have anything local when it comes to teachers .....so does anyone have any information on the martial art aspects of ninjutus?
> 
> ...



Personally, I'd suggest forums such as this, if you're not looking to train (due to no schools, or any other reason), and are just after an intellectual understanding. I'll see if I can explain by answering Mark's post.



garet jax said:


> If you are actually serious about researching _ninjutsu_, I&#8217;m afraid that there aren&#8217;t too many reliable resources currently available to the general public. You could check out books by Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi and Dr. Kacem Zoughari to start out with.



Hey Mark, long time.

Those can be good books once a baseline of knowledge has been established, but aren't the easiest to use as an entry point. Despite the issues with the information Hayes was putting out, at least his books were easier to get a grasp of... Hatsumi's tend to be a little esoteric (particularly the latest series, rather than the older ones, such as "Grandmasters Book of Ninja Training", or "Essence of Ninjutsu", which I would recommend), and Kacem's tome really isn't an easy read at the best of times.



garet jax said:


> As far as instruction is concerned, the only people claiming to actually teach _ninjutsu_ are fraudulent. The &#8220;big three&#8221; organizations that have legitimate ties to _ninjutsu_ in their curriculum are the Bujinkan, the Jinenkan, and the Genbukan. If you are serious about learning, then your best bet would be to seek out an instructor that suits your needs from one of these.



To explain where Mark is coming from here, there are a couple of different ways to define "Ninjutsu", one of which is a specific definition, and refers to the skill set historically referred to as "ninjutsu" (such as the espionage, scouting, spying side of things), which doesn't tend to include much in the way of combative methods (a few Ryu-ha would have some combative applications within their methods, but in other systems there would be combative martial arts, and the "ninjutsu" section would be separate completely). The other definition is a modern one, and is a generalist definition, most commonly used to refer to the arts in the above organisations (I will add the caveat that there are legit independent organisations, however I would also say that you are safest with the "big three"... and that you'll be hard pressed to find good books from any of the independent groups, so we could discount them in this area), as the arts taught include some that are historically related to groups that we would call "ninja" today, while not necessarily being "ninjutsu" schools themselves. As such, I'm not about to say that anyone claiming to teach "ninjutsu" are fraudulent... unless someone wants to apply that description to Hatsumi?



garet jax said:


> One little caveat: be warned now that what you discover in a dojo being represented as &#8220;_ninjutsu_&#8221; may be anything but. Anyone can throw shuriken at a stationary object , have their students line up in rows mechanically performing rolls and breakfalls, employ shuko to catch a sword blade, or wear black do gi and tabi. That doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean the instruction you are receiving has anything to do whatsoever with authentic _ninjutsu_. The trappings of what many perceive as &#8220;_ninjutsu_&#8221; are merely the skim of its teeth; toys employed to ensnare the curious and substantiate the pathological. _Ninjutsu_ does exist within the confines of legitimate teachings available, but not necessarily in the most obvious and easily understandable forms. Good instructors will be hard to come by in this regard.
> 
> Mark Spada



Well, as you said you're just interested in learning about the art, not train in it, there's not too much to talk about in this section. Again, it comes down to the definition as applied. For more of an overview of the methods taught, though, look to threads here such as the following: 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/84366-What-do-you-really-learn-in-Ninjutsu
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/90022-What-is-Ninjutsu
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...u-Budo-Taijutsu-amp-Related-arts-descriptions

From there, the best bet is to ask questions... but hopefully threads such as the above can help you understand what it is you're wanting to ask.


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## garet jax (Aug 29, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Hatsumi's tend to be a little esoteric (particularly the latest series, rather than the older ones, such as "Grandmasters Book of Ninja Training", or "Essence of Ninjutsu", which I would recommend), and Kacem's tome really isn't an easy read at the best of times.
> 
> I'm not about to say that anyone claiming to teach "ninjutsu" are fraudulent... unless someone wants to apply that description to Hatsumi?




While I would agree that Hatsumi sensei&#8217;s books are a bit on the esoteric side and Dr. Zoughari&#8217;s prose style isn&#8217;t for anyone under the age of twelve, these two men are still the best legitimate sources for easily accessible information regarding the subject of _ninjutsu_. Personally, I would suggest that the absolute worst possible sources for information on the subject are internet forums such as this.

Perhaps I should have been more specific about my slant on the concept of "fraudlent". Allow me to clarify. Hatsumi sensei does not openly &#8220;teach&#8221; _ninjutsu_ in the strictest and simplest definition of the term, and that definition is as follows: the word _ninjutsu_ is comparable to the word _kenjutsu_ or _bojutsu_; it is meant to imply the usage of the knowledge, the methodology, and the skill sets in a typically Japanese non-specific manner.


Mark Spada


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## Chris Parker (Aug 29, 2012)

Hey Mark,

My point on the forums is that it's a more direct way to get to the information asked for, both Kacem's and Hatsumi's books are far better once a baseline is established (which, from the OP, isn't there yet...). Additionally, if something is written in a book, there isn't often a secondary voice, either adding to or contradicting whatever is put forth. This is how people like Ashida Kim (to take an extreme) manage to get people believing what they say. Forums allow that. If someone puts down bad information, others can come along and correct it, or at least question it (as in the threads I linked, as well as others), so to get a baseline, they can be fairly good. Are you going to get all the essential aspects? No, not at all. Are you going to "learn the art" that way? Not in a thousand years... but you wouldn't by reading books or watching DVDs either. But that's not what's been asked for in any case.

And yeah, I got what you were meaning in your usage of "ninjutsu" and "fraudulent", but feel that our OP might not have, so I was just clarifying for them.


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## garet jax (Aug 29, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> My point on the forums is that it's a more direct way to get to the information asked for, both Kacem's and Hatsumi's books are far better once a baseline is established (which, from the OP, isn't there yet...).




Chris,

Although I would concede that it is possible to extrapolate useful perspectives from discussion forums, I disagree that Hatsumi senseis books or Dr.Zougharis writings require any prerequisites in order to understand the subject matter. Thats based mostly on what other people have told me regarding their own experience.

Mark Spada


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## Chris Parker (Aug 29, 2012)

Call it different perspectives, then. Hatsumi's earlier books, I'd have no problem recommending without a basis, but the rest make more sense with something behind them (in my opinion). Still, different perspectives is one reason I think that forums are a good starting point... so thanks for the example, Mark.


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## gregtca (Aug 29, 2012)

Gee where to start, does ninjutsu exist at all these days? Is it what ninjutsu was back over 400 years ago? Are ppl training like they did?, what was that training like ?, while hatsumi has produced much information over the years, and the other 2 organisations are claiming to as well today, there are still some doubts as to how much is true and what is just made up , many things have no way of being authenticated, just blindly following anyone is rather dangerous I would think, just a random thought , IMHO , please it's not ment to be upsetting , anyway good luck finding , researching this wonderful subject of ninjutsu,


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 29, 2012)

Let's see if I can clarify a little more for the absolute beginner to all this.

The only organizations with any links to what may be historical ninjutsu ryu are the Bujinkan and its offshoots: The Genbukan, Jinenkan, and some smaller splinter groups.

In the Bujinkan, Hatsumi teaches a blended curriculum taken from the 9 ryu that he inherited from Takamatsu. Only 3 of these are ninjutsu ryu. The full historical bona fides of those ryu have not been established. The supposed 800+ year lineage of Togakure Ryu is almost certainly embellished. However, let's accept for the sake of argument that the 3 ninjutsu ryu do represent some sort of actual historical tradition even if the details have been exaggerated.

As stated, the curriculum of the Bujinkan is a blended one, focusing on unarmed and armed combat. Methods specific to ninjutsu - stealth, espionage, military intelligence, etc, are rarely taught. Nevertheless, in the early days Hatsumi marketed his art as "ninjutsu" and it was under that name that Westerners such as Steve Hayes and Wayne Roy originally learned it and spread it to their students. As part of this ninjutsu image, tidbits such as stealth walking techniques and shurikenjutsu were sometimes tossed into the training, but generally at a very superficial level. Over time, Hatsumi changed the name of the training from Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu to Ninpo Taijutsu and finally to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. The "ninja" aspects are no longer used as advertising glitter. However, some teachers may still refer to what they are doing as ninjutsu. That might mean they are fraudulent or it might mean they started out training back in the day when Hatsumi used that terminology.

The historical methods specific to ninjutsu may be taught at a deeper level to some of the senior students in the Bujinkan, but you'd have to ask them. They don't talk about it too much publicly. There are some combat techniques included in the ninjutsu ryu and those are mixed into the composite blend that is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. You'd need a senior student of the art who is familiar with the kata of the original 9 ryu to break down what technique came from where.

On a side note - even if a particular senior practitioner in the Bujinkan is fully introduced to the information contained within the ninjutsu ryu, that doesn't necesarily mean that they have any real competency in the skills involved. Stealth or counter-espionage methods require countless hours of practice just like punching and kicking do. Some of those skills have little or no applicability to modern usage. (If you actually are working for the Special Forces or military intelligence, they will train you in the modern version of those methods as practiced by actual working professionals. Amateurs would be well advised to keep their interest more academic.)


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 29, 2012)

BTW - since there was discussion above about books to read for background, you should know to avoid Hatsumi's first book in English - _Ninjutsu: History and Tradition_.  From what I am told, when Steve Hayes translated Hatsumi's writings he tossed in a bunch of additional material of his own which contains quite a bit of misinformation.


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## Aiki Lee (Sep 1, 2012)

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if koryu practitioners studying Tenshinshoden Katori Shinto ryu or Yagyu Shinkage ryu study the ninjutsu elements in their curriculum or if those aspects are just not really explored much anymore?


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## Chris Parker (Sep 1, 2012)

Hmm. Yes, I do know, but it's for the members of the Ryu to comment on. Incidentally, I would say that there isn't quite enough information in your question to answer it completely, or even accurately, but the ideas you're bringing up were ones that I was avoiding in this thread, as our OP was really only seeming to be asking about the "popular" martial arts face of ninjutsu (the X-Kans etc), and this would take it in a potentially confusing direction for them.... otherwise I'd have corrected a lot of Tony's post earlier (not that what he was saying was necessarily "wrong" in the X-Kan world, although a few things are slightly out).


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## Aiki Lee (Sep 1, 2012)

*ilhe4e12345* says, "i just wanted to ask some people that train in it", which would tend to refer to the Takamatsu lineage as it's the most practiced; but the OP seemed open enough that statements about other authentic ninjutsu could be included. However I see your point that such a conversation could be confusing so I'll save it for another thread.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 2, 2012)

Hmm. Not exactly what I was getting at... and the OP had enough tell-tale signs to keep other forms out of it. But to deal with that area, we'd need to clarify a lot of what the terminology means... which can change from system to system. I'll see what I can add to your other thread, but there might not be the information you're looking for, honestly.


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