# Kung fu without forms



## qwerty (Jan 12, 2015)

I've been thinking, although kung fu forms have been evolving for centuries, how are they to compete against grappling martial arts such as bjj and judo? Although there are several styles of kung fu which are designed for ground fighting each style has its own strengths and weaknesses. In my opinion the idea of forms is "rigid". Not as in physically rigid but mentally. I would believe that by separating the movements of the forms and using them freely would be much more efficient..... What do you think?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 12, 2015)

You can replace form training by combo drills training.






Solo combo drills also exist in the grappling art training as well. When training partner is not available, the solo training can help you to "polish" your skill.


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## clfsean (Jan 12, 2015)

Forms aren't used for fighting. They're drills put together, techniques that flow logically from one to another or at times, what somebody did to somebody else, etc... They're for intellectual learning & reference of a martial art. Physical learning comes with touching hands with people.


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## qwerty (Jan 12, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Forms aren't used for fighting. They're drills put together, techniques that flow logically from one to another or at times, what somebody did to somebody else, etc... They're for intellectual learning & reference of a martial art. Physical learning comes with touching hands with people.


I see.... So forms are like a "mental fight simulation" to prepare martial artists against real opponents, but will they predict how an actual opponent will react?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 12, 2015)

qwerty said:


> I see.... So forms are like a "mental fight simulation" to prepare martial artists against real opponents, but will they predict how an actual opponent will react?


Form is like a book. A book may only have one ending whether it's happy ending or sad ending. But when you map that book into drills, it can have many different endings.

For example, a form may have the following combo:

- left side kick,
- right palm chop to the neck.

This combo will work when you throw a left side kick and your opponent uses right downward block and spins your body to your left. What if your opponent uses left downward block and spins your body to your right? You will need to modify the 2nd move of your combo as:

- left side kick,
- right spin back fist.

Will your form contain both cases? May be not. Should you train your combo drills in both cases? IMO, you should.


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## qwerty (Jan 12, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Form is like a book. A book may only have one ending whether it's happy ending or sad ending. But when you map that book into drills, it can have many different endings.


That is an excellent explanation. Thank you.


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## kuniggety (Jan 12, 2015)

You can't ever predict how an opponent will react. Forms teach technique and train muscle memory. You shouldn't have to "think" about how to do a move and how to transition into the next. Many people learn the defense aspect of the form as they're learning it so that they can visualize the opponent. If you're not doing that, then it's basically a dance.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 12, 2015)

qwerty said:


> I've been thinking, although kung fu forms have been evolving for centuries, how are they to compete against grappling martial arts such as bjj and judo? Although there are several styles of kung fu which are designed for ground fighting each style has its own strengths and weaknesses. In my opinion the idea of forms is "rigid". Not as in physically rigid but mentally. I would believe that by separating the movements of the forms and using them freely would be much more efficient..... What do you think?



Bruce Lee already said this and came up with Jeet Kune Do

Beyond that you have Sanda (Sanshou) which is pretty much Kung Fu (incorrect translation by the way) without forms and it is based on a lot of drills

Beyond that it has already been said that forms are not for fighting, but if you look at forms and do not see the myriad of applications to fighting your thinking is to rigid as it applies to forms


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## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2015)

Forms serve different purposes.  Some are vehicles to transmit the strategies and approaches of a style.  Some are about exercise.  Some are simply pretty sequences assembled for esthetic purposes.  So, if we simply look at "fighting forms", those which encompass the tactics and principles and strategies of a style, you have to look at the form to see what the lesson is.  Then, to use it, you can break those pieces out and practice them as drills or partner exercises.  Probably clear as mud...  Let's try an example.

A common basic form set across many styles consists of a block, and counterpunch.  The specifics will depend on the style (one might use a knife hand block, another might step to a particular angle, the counterpunch varies, etc) but the underlying message of block and counter is the same.  Take that into a drill, and you might have one person throw a punch at their partner, who blocks and counterpunches.  As you practice it, the feed attack might vary, it might speed up, the attacker might protect themselves from the defense, etc.  Eventually, the combination of form practice, drill, and other practice should result in your ability to respond to an attack without really thinking about it by positioning yourself, blocking or parrying, and striking back.  (It works the same with 2 person forms, too... just the application is more apparent.)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 12, 2015)

Some solo drill/from are created directly from the application. When drill/form are created this way, it may not look pretty at all. If you try to use this kind of drill/form to compete in form competition, you will never win. 

Here is an example. The nice thing about this approach is the "correct angle between you and your opponent" has already been built into the drill.

Application:






Solo drill:


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## Flying Crane (Jan 13, 2015)

You don't need to like forms, and you don't need to practice them if that approach to training doesn't work for you.  And you don't need to apologize for that.

I don't concern myself with competing against BJJ or judo.  Especially the "competition" part of it.  And I don't apologize for that, either.

I'm a kung fu guy and I find forms very useful in my training, but that's just me.  But yeah, there are other things to do too.


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## yak sao (Jan 14, 2015)

The thing about forms is they are not the system. Rather, they contain the system. The goal then is not to master the form, but to master what is contained within the form.
To truly understand the system you are training in, it is important to study the forms. While it's true that forms teach technique and muscle memory, along with stamina, balance, flexibility, strength training, awareness, and many other things vitally important to being an effective fighter that are not coming to mind at the moment, let's leave that aside.
Something else more abstract is found in forms..they contain the principles of the system that your are training. To understand your system and ingrain it down into your core, you have to literally, make it a part of you. The movements have to flow out of you without conscious thought or effort. When this happens you start to see the DNA that links your forms together and you see the underlying principles that were put there for the diligent student to find.
Do you need forms to fight...nah, there are too many examples of good fighters down through the ages that didn't train forms. But form is an excellent resource, a treasure even,  that has been handed down to us from our respective systems' ancestors.
I for one, value that treasure.


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## Hanzou (Jan 14, 2015)

qwerty said:


> I've been thinking, although kung fu forms have been evolving for centuries, how are they to compete against grappling martial arts such as bjj and judo? Although there are several styles of kung fu which are designed for ground fighting each style has its own strengths and weaknesses. In my opinion the idea of forms is "rigid". Not as in physically rigid but mentally. I would believe that by separating the movements of the forms and using them freely would be much more efficient..... What do you think?



That's why people roll in Bjj instead of doing forms. I feel that rolling develops your reactions and abilities far better than form practice does, because you're facing actual resistance, and have to respond to that resistance. Also people aren't correcting your form as if you're doing some sort of dance number. The resistance corrects your form for you, and even better, the resistance helps you determine what modifications to the form works with your body type.

As others have said, there are some modern KF arts that don't practice forms, and there other MAs that don't practice forms. You can always do what I did, and simply train in an art where forms and katas are nonexistent. Best decision I ever made.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 14, 2015)

It can be a good challenge if you can create a form that the

- 1st move set up the 2nd move,
- 2nd move set up the 3rd move,
- ...
- n-1th move set up the nth move,

The higher the number n, the more it will challenge your MA knowledge. For example,

- you throw a left side kick,
- your opponent uses left downward block and spins your body to your right,
- you borrow your body spinning and right spin back fist at your opponent's head.
- your opponent drop his head and dodge your spin back fist,
- you then ...

If n < 10, I'll call it "combo drill". If n > 10, I will call it "form".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> simply train in an art where forms and katas are nonexistent.


When you are home along without training partner, to train "entering strategy" followed by "finish strategy" can be a good "polish" for your skill.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 14, 2015)

as I said in another thread if someone is correcting you and saying this works better or try this angle or placement of the arm/leg and you try it slowly to get the correct angle you doing the same thing people do in kata. 
Do you just suddenly go full force hoping you may get it correct and never get corrected for mistakes or do you think about it after *(maybe when your home) and visualize it OPPS that part of kata


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## qwerty (Jan 14, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It can be a good challenge if you can create a form that the
> 
> - 1st move set up the 2nd move,
> - 2nd move set up the 3rd move,
> ...


Interesting idea


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 14, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> do you think about it after *(maybe when your home) and visualize it OPPS that part of kata


When I walk by myself, I like to use my arm to do

1. left arm downward parry,
2. right arm upward comb hair,
3. left arm upward wrap.
4. right arm downward wrap.

If 2 moves combo (1 and 2 are one move, 3 and 4 are one move) can be called as form/kata, I'm doing form/kata at home.


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## qwerty (Jan 14, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> as I said in another thread if someone is correcting you and saying this works better or try this angle or placement of the arm/leg and you try it slowly to get the correct angle you doing the same thing people do in kata.
> Do you just suddenly go full force hoping you may get it correct and never get corrected for mistakes or do you think about it after *(maybe when your home) and visualize it OPPS that part of kata


I will be honest. I don't study a particular martial art in lessons or anything but have been spending the past 3 years creating my own. It started off crude, if that's the right word. Then I began fine tuning it to increase efficiency, precision, power and adaptability. I have created a few really basic forms, (not based on brute force but precision) and I'm just wondering if I should carry on with forms or not. The idea of this is not just pure self-defense but also self control, patience and adaptability (to mental pressure).  I'm 14 at the moment and plan on fine tuning it for quite a while. So far I have not had to use this as defence but to improve every day life. It's worked! But unfortunately my knowledge is limited to only what I know. Which is why I came up with this thread to observe how forms are used in martial arts.


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## Dinkydoo (Jan 14, 2015)

qwerty said:


> I will be honest. I don't study a particular martial art in lessons or anything but have been spending the past 3 years creating my own.
> 
> [...]
> 
> But unfortunately my knowledge is limited to only what I know.



Find an art you're interested in, go to a class.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2015)

Yes, get a good instructor.  That is time well spent.n do not try to do this on your own.


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## kuniggety (Jan 14, 2015)

Get a teacher before building your own martial art. You're trying to reinvent the wheel. Why reinvent the wheel when you can stand on the shoulders of giants? Learn from those before you and then take the art further.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 14, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> Get a teacher before building your own martial art.


Confucius said, "He who learns but does not think, is lost! He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger."


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 14, 2015)

qwerty said:


> I will be honest. I don't study a particular martial art in lessons or anything but have been spending the past 3 years creating my own. It started off crude, if that's the right word. Then I began fine tuning it to increase efficiency, precision, power and adaptability. I have created a few really basic forms, (not based on brute force but precision) and I'm just wondering if I should carry on with forms or not. The idea of this is not just pure self-defense but also self control, patience and adaptability (to mental pressure).  I'm 14 at the moment and plan on fine tuning it for quite a while. So far I have not had to use this as defence but to improve every day life. It's worked! But unfortunately my knowledge is limited to only what I know. Which is why I came up with this thread to observe how forms are used in martial arts.




I will echo what the others have said about getting an instructor. I know how ever that some people can not afford to attend classes. If this is the case see if a local instructor will allow you to study in exchange for you doing the cleaning of the studio or other tasks.
AS for studying on your own stick to the most basic of kicks and punches, simulate a couple leg sweeps and work on these things for a year. You have said you already have a couple forms. I hope they are simple and short. Work them for the next year see if you find any other use for the moves you have put together.
BUT AS HAS BEEN SAID IF YOU CAN GET WITH AN INSTRUCTOR YOU WILL LEARN SO MUCH MORE


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## senseidave2005 (May 24, 2015)

I notice your last post was jan 14th 2015, this Ironically was the ten year anniversary date of taking over the dojo/Studio I now own from my Master instructor.... I decided ar 17 or 18 that I wanted to to teach martial arts for a living and it was a long road getting to it. An expensive education.  Both in Martial arts and business. At first I couldnt understand why the forms and Kata were so important, now I'm still trying to figure alot of things out after 25 years in the martial arts. One thing I have found is form and function go together hand in hand. If you have no idea what a move in a form is for how can you expect it to work... As many of us learn from the lessons the great teachers left behind for us we get to a point where we need to know why wecare doing what we are doing. The form will not or should not change, however the function can as long as we are prepared to think outside the box. I try to explain to the students at the dojo how the same lesson can look different the next time arond...
Example. I teach you slide step to the left, downward right front punch, left pressing palm to your opponents shoulder.... simple. Now 6 months go by and I show you the same 2 -3 moves this time your attacked with a 1-2 combo so the palm shoulder becomes a block rather than press... my point is know the why not just the what ofvthe form then the when becomes easier... Your fight on your terms on your turf when your ready. Good luck... hope you found a teacher.


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## hoshin1600 (May 25, 2015)

there are no forms in BJJ because practitioners would look insane rolling around on the ground all by themselves. looking like they are wrestling the invisible man.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 25, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> there are no forms in BJJ because practitioners would look insane rolling around on the ground all by themselves. looking like they are wrestling the invisible man.


The form training is just like the partner training without partner. If the "stand up grappling" can have forms, the "ground grappling" can also have forms. The reason is simple, we won't have training partner 24/7. Any solo training is better than nothing. The solo training may not help you to develop any new skill, it can help you to "polish" your skill that you have already developed.


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## quynn75 (Jun 2, 2015)

Forms are the basic exercise for muscle memory and - - , you have to practice the forms many YEARS to get the fruits! I´ve been in China and they train in the way that they just pick one form and train it years and years! To make all the movements and drills exact and precise, to correct the postures... forms will give you the idea of how to coordinate the whole body when doing the kicks/punches. And in the beginning, they are much more fun than just drills. And, yes.. historically they are like a book. But I think they´re really important when you practice them correctly! And with surveillance of someone who has A LOT OF experience. (IMPORTANT!) - having chinese master is the best!
And last but not least, kung fu forms are BEAUTIFUL!


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2015)

Forms are required in Kung Fu.  I wouldn't train under a Kung Fu Sifu if they didn't have forms.  The purpose of the forms is to teach you how to correctly do the technique. Forms make the movement natural which means you don't have to think about doing it when you apply it.  You can't realistically use Kung Fu in a fight without understanding the form and your body and brain being able to do the movement without hesitation or thinking.  It has to be as natural as blinking your eyes.

I train in Jow Ga Kung Fu and all of my forms will work against MMA fighters, judo fighters.  The first form we have is made of 4 parts, but in a real fight or competition I can break the practice form (made of 4 parts) and mix them 15 or more combinations using the same movements.  I understand that those 4 movements in the form and can break it apart to fit the situation that I'm in.  We have a training day where we specifically break forms with the goal of being able to use a technique from any starting point or alter it from counter punching to kicking.  That's the only way you can truly learn how to use a Kung Fu style, but you can't even do that until you learn the proper form.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 4, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> there are no forms in BJJ because practitioners would look insane rolling around on the ground all by themselves. looking like they are wrestling the invisible man.


BJJ solo drills:


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## marques (Aug 4, 2015)

I think quite like you. But this is because we never understood 'forms'. 
The best explanation I had, or the way I better understood, is that it is a kind of body preparation. Balance, muscles, coordination... Then learn to fight will be much easier and powerfull...


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 4, 2015)

Question: whats a drill? A training exercise that can be a repetition of a single move or multiple moves.

OK, now what's a form...... think about that for a while..... to me it is an old way of saying drill


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## Argus (Aug 4, 2015)

marques said:


> I think quite like you. But this is because we never understood 'forms'.
> The best explanation I had, or the way I better understood, is that it is a kind of body preparation. Balance, muscles, coordination... Then learn to fight will be much easier and powerfull...



Forms explore all kinds of territory. To attribute just a few physical attributes to a form, I think, is to miss a great deal.

It all depends on the art though, of course. Different arts practice forms for different reasons, and explore different aspects of the system in their forms. Wing Chun, for example, has particularly straight forward, though abstract forms. The forms explore basic structure, the "alphabet" of the System in terms of hand and body movement, but it also explores and reinforces core principles of the system such as centerline theory and forward energy. The different forms have different purposes as well: Siu Nim Tao is static and abstract, focusing more on the core concepts and "alphabet" of the system, seeking to establish a solid foundation. Chum Kiu puts that foundation in motion, and teaches one how to move dynamically while maintaining that structure, and introduces context for some of the hand motions. Biu Tze looks at more out of the ordinary applications and contains ideas about how to recover from, or simply cope with disadvantageous situations. That's all just an over simplication, of course, and you can dig quite deeply into any one of the forms. There are all kinds of ideas, principles, and contexts to explore. And I'll wager it's the same for every art -- it's just that some practitioners have lost sight of what's been handed down to them over time.

As for personal development, I also find it quite useful to practice _form_ even when I'm not practicing _forms_. I spend a lot of time practicing in the air, attempting to habitualize good structure, foot-work, and body mechanics, and all the while piecing together movements and concepts from the forms and thinking about what kind of positions I can use them in, or how I might need to recover or where I may need to flow to from there. So, through form work, whether it's practicing forms, or just practicing form in a freely, you can focus or broaden your training. You might notice a particular deficiency in one of your techniques, or in your stance. Go back to your forms and look at what you're doing. Are you shifting your weight correctly, or in a way that creates a deficiency? Are you practicing your hand techniques correctly? Where might you tweak them to remedy your symptoms? You can use it to explore flow, and recovery. What actions do you find, in your free training, hard to deal with? What positions do you have a hard time recovering from? Imagine that position. Imagine your opponent, and consider his and your options in those circumstances, and consider how you might flow to a different position; what solutions you might try, and how the situation might unfold in a productive, or dangerous way. That process of thinking through an exchange will enhance your ability to flow and provide solutions that you can experiment with.

Visualization and deliberate practice are powerful. Closely examining, and consciously redefining your habits is essential. That's what forms are about: looking at the system, looking at yourself, and examining both of them. Forms are where you _consciously_ and _deliberately _examine, reform, and refine your habits whilst also exploring associated connections and principles. If you're not doing that, and you're just going through the motions, you're robbing yourself of their benefit.

If an unexamined life is not worth living, an unexamined form is not worth practicing. What you should question is not the value of the form itself, but how you approach your practice.


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## greytowhite (Aug 7, 2015)

My first teacher started off doing the Yang taiji form but his teacher for it was only able to give him the health benefits not the martial art. Then he went searching for something martially applicable. He first went to Jake Mace's school but found it to be utter ********. Then he went to Ip Man lineage wing chun school. He got some good knowledge there but was still seeking something. Then he met Chen Xiaowang at an expo and everything from there changed for him. He quickly went through and added the laojia yilu and erlu, xinjia yilu and erlu to his form collection. However when he went to teach he gave me these words, "Forms are like the body of your car. The engine is what matters. You can still fight like the style if you have its engine but the body will go nowhere by itself." So at first he only taught me eight stances, their transitions and applications from the Chen form. The silk reeling with various stepping methods was our focus for a long time to make sure I could practice something that was worth my time.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 7, 2015)

greytowhite said:


> My first teacher started off doing the Yang taiji form but his teacher for it was only able to give him the health benefits not the martial art. Then he went searching for something martially applicable. He first went to Jake Mace's school but found it to be utter ********. Then he went to Ip Man lineage wing chun school. He got some good knowledge there but was still seeking something. Then he met Chen Xiaowang at an expo and everything from there changed for him. He quickly went through and added the laojia yilu and erlu, xinjia yilu and erlu to his form collection. However when he went to teach he gave me these words, "Forms are like the body of your car. The engine is what matters. You can still fight like the style if you have its engine but the body will go nowhere by itself." So at first he only taught me eight stances, their transitions and applications from the Chen form. The silk reeling with various stepping methods was our focus for a long time to make sure I could practice something that was worth my time.


It's really difficult to find a martial arts school that teaches tai chi (Yang taiji) as a martial art, especially here in the U.S. where it's really watered down to the point where it's useless all together.  It's a shame that so many people waste there time with something that they could actually learn correctly and be good at it.  If a person likes a martial arts then they might as well learn it correctly from a knowledgeable instructor instead of spending many years learning how to do something the wrong way.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 7, 2015)

greytowhite said:


> "Forms are like the body of your car. The engine is what matters. You can still fight like the style if you have its engine but the body will go nowhere by itself."


I like that analogy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 7, 2015)

greytowhite said:


> So at first he only taught me eight stances, ...



When I taught my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with 8 stances for the 1st day class. In the middle of my 1st class, a guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji". He then left and I have not seen him since then.

I like to start with left and right drills before the form. The advantage of this approach is you will always develop your both sides equally.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 7, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I taught my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with 8 stances for the 1st day class. In the middle of my 1st class, a guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji". He then left and I have not seen him since then.
> 
> I like to start with left and right drills before the form. The advantage of this approach is you will always develop your both sides equally.



Him leaving was a good thing.  He clearly didn't have the patience or the knowledge to understand that there is no way to properly learn the style without the stances and basic movements.  I would leave a class if the first thing the instructor teaches is the form.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 7, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Him leaving was a good thing.  He clearly didn't have the patience or the knowledge to understand that there is no way to properly learn the style without the stances and basic movements.  I would leave a class if the first thing the instructor teaches is the form.


If a student can learn all 8 basic stances (a, b, ..., g, h), and also 8 x 8 = 64 different ways to shift from one stance into another (include shift from one side x stance into another side x stance), when he starts to learn form from any MA style, he can pretty much just concentrate on the arms movement and he can learn it very fast.

Sometime I don't understand why people don't want to spend enough training time on the basic but want to jump into form ASAP.


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## WingChunKid (Sep 8, 2015)

In Wing Chun it’s quite important practise the forms. They do eventually improve your fighting skill. One may think that forms are just a sequence of movements you do by yourself, but in Wing Chun and other Chinese arts they help with a lot of things.

Siu Nim Tao

The first form taught to beginners. Also the most important form.

At basic level, the first form teaches the student about the centreline, hand positioning and striking. It also helps with basic long term things, like making your legs stronger through the stance. You need to be relaxed when doing the form, and you must do it slowly. At advanced level the student should be looking at correct elbow positioning, and energy. At certain points in the Siu Nim Tao form, more energy is needed in a strike/ movement than in other strikes/movements. Just because Siu Nim Tao is the first and most fundamental form, doesn’t mean that advanced students don’t still do it. Advanced students and even masters and grandmasters should practise Siu Nim Tao. Overall it helps fighting ability because of the energy and position. Using correct energy amounts at different times will help in a fight, so will correct position.

Chum Kiu

The second form which is taught to semi-advanced students. Chum Kiu involves turning in the stance and movement, unlike Siu Nim Tao. Turning with technique increases power, and turning will also help your balance and structure in the form. Chum Kiu also introduces some kicks, which are very important. As well as energy changing (which Siu Nim Tao), Chum Kiu also has weight shifting. When turning and stepping, more of your bodyweight is one leg than the other, and sometimes you have to shift your weight to the other leg. Overall it helps fighting ability because shifting your weight and balance are two things which will definitely help in a fight.

Biu Jee

The third form which is taught to advanced students. It improves turning, footwork and weight shifting like Chum Kiu. It also helps the student to develop power form a very short distance. Biu Jee consists a lot of emergency techniques which are applied if the structure and centreline hasn’t worked, or if the student is pinned or trapped and these include low kicks, sweeps, elbow strikes and finger thrusts.


There are also 3 weapons forms, but I won't include those, mostly because they’re very advanced and I know nothing about them.

I am only the 3rd grade level in my Wing Chun school, so I have just realized I know more than I thought.


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## greytowhite (Sep 8, 2015)

Yiquan and Ziranmen are the two "formless" styles. That said some of the branches of both have forms. Some of the Han family branch of Yiquan have a "second course" which is basically Hebei xingyi. Many Ziranmen schools also practice Cheng bagua, Liuhemen, or another art beside it. Still, there is a structured curriculum of basic movements and lots of practice with partners etc.


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## Koshiki (Sep 9, 2015)

qwerty said:


> I would believe that by separating the movements of the forms and using them freely would be much more efficient..... What do you think?



At least in my experience, that _is_ how forms are used. No one expects to able to use all of a 30 movement form in sequence, it's a mnemonic device, a reference material, composed of a bunch of drills, each to be trained separately, and with a resisting partner, and then incorporated into live "sparring" or some equivalent. Bets of all, there are no set drills, each is open to various interpretations.

Also, you can take varying segments to explore, for example, in our imaginary form, we could train a drill utilizing motions 3, 4, and 5, or just 3 and 4, or 2, 3, and 4, or even turn it into a two person drill that uses fluid and not-prearranged responses using, say, motions 2 and 3; 7 and 8; 15-18, and 21, each countered by and followed up by some choice of the other person.

I realize it varies from style to style, but generally, forms are your reference textbook of suggested motions and sequences and strategies, which you then disassemble and examine and put back together in as many different way as possible.

Merely running the form on loop is like reading an encyclopedia over and over and over. Useful, and you will eventually gain an innate knowledge of the material, maybe even pass the test, but you'll only gain a better understanding when you figure out how all the information in that textbook works by experimenting with it in real life.

So, to give you my short answer to your original question; Yes, by separating the various components of your forms and using them freely, you are training more efficiently than just running the pattern over and over again.

But reading the textbook first helps.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 2, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I taught my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with 8 stances for the 1st day class. In the middle of my 1st class, a guy stood up and said, "This is not Taiji". He then left and I have not seen him since then.
> 
> I like to start with left and right drills before the form. The advantage of this approach is you will always develop your both sides equally.


You still teach at acc and which campus / what years?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 2, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a student can learn all 8 basic stances (a, b, ..., g, h), and also 8 x 8 = 64 different ways to shift from one stance into another (include shift from one side x stance into another side x stance), when he starts to learn form from any MA style, he can pretty much just concentrate on the arms movement and he can learn it very fast.
> 
> Sometime I don't understand why people don't want to spend enough training time on the basic but want to jump into form ASAP.


Instant gratification syndrome.or IGS It gives some instructors IBS.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 2, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> You still teach at acc and which campus / what years?


It was the northern Austin ACC campus near Metric Blvd about 1985 - 1986. I no longer teach that class any more.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 2, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It was the northern Austin ACC campus near Metric Blvd about 1985 - 1986. I no longer teach that class any more.


Darn. Too early. I did not move to Austin until about 10 years
After you taught there.


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## mograph (Oct 2, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Instant gratification syndrome.or IGS It gives some instructors IBS.


To be fair to the average student, while there is some IGS, they "get" the form movements, they can _see_ them, feel them, while they can't _feel_ stance training. (Well, maybe not the way they want!) Also, form is what they saw that made them want to take up the art: "I want to do _that_." Then, they're shown something different, and boring, like stance training? "Naah."

Maybe MA actually does require a patient mindset (I think it does). But that's bad news for those who have to make a living teaching it, since most people here (young? western? urban?) don't seem to have the patience.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 2, 2015)

mograph said:


> To be fair to the average student, while there is some IGS, they "get" the form movements, they can _see_ them, feel them, while they can't _feel_ stance training. (Well, maybe not the way they want!) Also, form is what they saw that made them want to take up the art: "I want to do _that_." Then, they're shown something different, and boring, like stance training? "Naah."
> 
> Maybe MA actually does require a patient mindset (I think it does). But that's bad news for those who have to make a living teaching it, since most people here (young? western? urban?) don't seem to have the patience.




This why I dont charge tution.
The guys who have no financial investment leave.
Those who love the art pay in time, pain, tears, sweat and failure. And patience.

Itousu Sensei taught 1 form at a time sometimes taking 3 years until he was satisfied.  Good QC... very absent in the McDojo era.
Not that I want to brag. At least about myself... but a certain student of mine who is just now 5th Gup... Wound up getting drawn into a fight with his gf's former stepdad.

The stepdad in essence was attempting to soft kidnap her at the mall. My boy wasn't onboard cause his gut told him it was a bad deal and he slid between them and told her to run back inside and hide.
Well, it went to blows very quickly. The short version was this guy was a 2dan in a longrange "tag" karate school and my boy stepped between minivans and worked close quarter drills on him. He got a broken nose from the Step, but landed a throat shot and followed up with an uppercut that finished it.

His girl wants to marry him now.

I am proud. It feels good to have someone trust the training and engage in a good fight.


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