# stick patterns for knife



## lonecoyote (Jul 9, 2004)

I got a nice folder as a gift, and I need a knife for work so I've started carrying it. It has dawned on me it would be a heck of a self defense tool. It has also occurred to me that I don't know how to use it, really. The kenpo system I used to study had some stick patterns in it which I still regularly practice. So I've practiced using the patterns with the knife, seems to work . Is this okay? Do I still use the V step footwork? Do I need to get some videos? In person instruction is out, closest FMA is about 4 hours away. Should I have posted this on the filipino martial arts forum? Thanks in advance, I know there are some very knowledgeable people here and I'll get some great responses.


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## Wes Idol (Jul 9, 2004)

FMA stick and knife applications have much to offer (I used to study at Innosanto's place in Los Angeles).  In regard to Kenpo Knife applications, this is a tough one.  There is a set called Form 8 in American Kenpo that for the most part was abandoned by Mr. Parker...although he created it in the 1960's.  There was a student of his named Mike Pick, who for most part, was just about the only student that Mr. Parker really focused on Kenpo Knife evolved applications. 

...here's the tough part...Mr. Pick lives in Colorado.  Also, Mr. Pick is very selective with who he shares this material with.  With that written, I'm confident there are many talented Kenpoists out there that might have sound knife applications to offer...trick is, if you're looking for American Kenpo Knife applications I would suggest Mike Pick.

Lastly, in my experience with knives...become very familiar with drawing your weapon.  It doesn't do much if you can't pull it out to apply.


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## dearnis.com (Jul 9, 2004)

I would recommend looking at some knife-specific videos.  On a basic nuts & bolts level you might check some of Hock Hocheim's material; Filipino based, but very stripped down.  I would really recommend the Sayoc Kali 3 of 9 or "public seminar" DVDs.  You will find a lot of quality material there.
The stick patterns are a good start; just be critical and ask yourself if any of the moves leave you open to cutting yourself.  On the foot work make sure you are t=not cutting towards you leg; this is a bad thing.


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 10, 2004)

*Link: Stick to Knife to Sword*







*Link: Train the Stick to Learn the Blade?*


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## lonecoyote (Jul 10, 2004)

Thanks everybody! Great advice, just like I expected. Thanks Wes, I understand the importance of the draw and will practice it like you suggested, and I love that kenpo lore. Dearnis, thanks, I will  check out the videos and I think I'm safe with the footwork. Phil, the martialist is a great magazine, and I love to read anything you've written. So now I guess I have some work to do.


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## Flatlander (Jul 10, 2004)

Try this, start with simple patterns.  (remember that every single motion can be a cut.)

Make an "X" in front of you, starting at top right, cut down toward left side.  Cut straight up from there, then down diagonal to right side, then straight up, then start again.  Do this very slowly, focusing on your mechanics, staying balanced, etc.  There are a bunch of variations that come off of this, but this is a good place to start.  Imagine how each motion that you are doing can be an attacking cut, or a blocking cut.  As you start to flow well with this, and feel balanced, speed it up.

Important!
a) When practicing, at no time draw the knife beyond the width of your shoulders.  That is unnecessary motion, and leaves you open.

b) Use a trainer, not a live blade.

Next lesson later.


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## Flatlander (Jul 10, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> The kenpo system I used to study had some stick patterns in it which I still regularly practice. So I've practiced using the patterns with the knife, seems to work . Is this okay? Do I still use the V step footwork?


I know zero about Kenpo, so no comment on that.

The "V" step footwork is used in FMAs but not exclusively.  If you are already used to moving your body a certain way, that will do fine.  There's really no point in trying to force footwork on yourself that isn't natural.  You won't flow well.  Just stay balanced.


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## lonecoyote (Jul 10, 2004)

Thanks flatlander, I'll give it a try. don't have a trainer, though. Why use one? I cut things with this knife often, and I respect the blade and am careful. Is there any place I could buy one without sending off for it? How about grinding down the point and edge off of  a cheap knife?


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 10, 2004)

The use of stick patterns for knife fighting will help with cordination and balance. 

In combat knife fighting is extremely violent and quick the main thing is the element of surprise. Due to the human reactive response. We use to have a drill in class where the instructor would have us stand facing each other in the ready stances and doing straight punches. The receiver would have to react to the punch 8 out of 10 times the punch would land on target. 

LOL until the Instructor told us the secert. If you know that the other person is going to throw a punch why stand there and take it MOVE!!!!!

The same thing is true in knife fighting move move move!! create distance and get a weapon lol.


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## Flatlander (Jul 10, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Thanks flatlander, I'll give it a try. don't have a trainer, though. Why use one? I cut things with this knife often, and I respect the blade and am careful. Is there any place I could buy one without sending off for it? How about grinding down the point and edge off of a cheap knife?


1. Why use a trainer?  It will allow you to start drilling faster without fear of slashing yourself up, and you'll be able to drill with a partner, whereas with a live blade, good luck finding a willing partner.

2. You could likely find a trainer at the local MA supply shop, or weapons boutique.

3. I don't see why grinding down a cheap knife wouldn't work just fine, but do a good job of it, keep it rounded, and get all the burrs off.  Maybe use a file for this once you have done the rough grinding.


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## dearnis.com (Jul 10, 2004)

A cheap knife will grind down fine.  You can also tape the blade for solo practice; not as good but safer than nothing.


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 10, 2004)

I don't recommend that.  It's too easy for the blade to cut through the tape.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 10, 2004)

I would recommend using a Training Knife. It is safe and the worst you will get is red marks on  your skin. SAFETY FIRST!!


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## Flatlander (Jul 11, 2004)

Time for next lesson.

This time, rather than "X" pattern, cut triangle pattern, point up.  Imagine you are actually cutting something. Do not let the tip of the knife separate from what you are "cutting".  Keep contact.  Just go around the triangle, over and over.  Top point of the triangle is at neck height, base is at bottom of ribs.  Turn triangle upside down, and try that way.

*remember to have a good balanced foundation.
*turn your body with the cut to provide power.
*try inserting a thrust at the corners of the "X" and triangles.

Though I don't think I mentioned it previously, these are all done "sabre grip".  Just grab the knife like a tennis racquet, or like you're shaking hands with it.


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## Flatlander (Jul 22, 2004)

Lonecoyote, where are you with this?  Have you been working your blade?


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## lonecoyote (Jul 22, 2004)

Yep, sure have, made a trainer as per everyone's suggestion, though I think I'll eventually need to buy a sturdy training knife. I'm not doing the stick footwork, just staying close in a comfortable neutral bow. The stick pattern I was using is fitting well, as it was a Filipino influenced twelve count pattern. Some of it made no sense with a stick but is made clear with a blade, especially a kind of overhand thrust. Training with a mirror . Havent bought any videos yet or been able to talk anyone into training with me. Think I'll buy Hocks tape, as what I've heard about the whole cutting post or war post, or whatever he calls it, idea will be a good way to train solo. Thanks again.


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## Flatlander (Jul 22, 2004)

No problemo, just glad to hear you're working it.


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## kroh (Aug 6, 2004)

Hey there...

I have trained with Mr. Hochheim in the past and I can attest for the validaty of his program.  If you are at a loss for training partners I would recomend his "Solo Comand and Mastery" series.

Regards...
WalT


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## BladeMaster (Aug 22, 2004)

My 2 cents on the issue is don't go for the cheap in getting your training blade.  Training is hard enough without(as REALLY Sharp Phil) brought out REALLY cutting yourself on a cheap trainer you made yourself to save a few bucks.  That will put your training back REALLY far.  Go visit Phil's site...It is time well spent.  If I may also recommend www.sharkee .com for superior plastic knives,www.trainingknives.com for Al. ones and the new training device that fits on them all... the VirtualBlade at www.virtualblade.com.   The VB is a marking system that attaches to ANY practice blade and gives you a bunch of big fat washable green "slashes" to show you where you just f*#&$!d up.  I have found it a serious tool in training as have many cop & military instructors.  In fact it's in Inside Kung Fu Mag. this month.  I hope this helps a little.  Stay safe,train hard & fight easy!


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## BladeMaster (Aug 22, 2004)

One more thought...Get ANY tape by Felix Valencia.  He is the new up and coming master of the blade/stick personally trained by Punong Guro Edgar G.Sulite of LAMECO.  He's a great teacher,even on tape.


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (Aug 25, 2004)

Wes Idol said:
			
		

> There was a student of his named Mike Pick, who for most part, was just about the only student that Mr. Parker really focused on Kenpo Knife evolved applications.



Mr. Parker also worked a good deal with advancing Kenpo knife applications with Mr. Paul Mills.


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## Northstorm (Sep 15, 2004)

You won't be able to learn knife fighting without a training partner.  It is true that without a partner you can learn to draw your knife fast and thrust or slash, but not how to fight.  Unless you are planning on a surprise attack against an opponent that thinks you are unarmed, the draw and thrust will be pretty much worthless.  You need to learn how to mix it up with a man slashing and thrusting his own knife at you.  That requires drills, drills and more drills.  Find a buddy, go to a seminar and then the two of you train with a tape.  Or maybe tell your Kenpo instructor that you are interested in knife fighting skills, and see if he will help you out.


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## J. Lee (Oct 23, 2004)

A suggestion mentioned previously : 
Footwork ; so as , not to get cut , but to 
remain in right Distance .
Footwork ; so as , to be able to control your 
Balance and unbalance the attacker .
Footwork ; so as , to gain appreciation of Timing .

Do not show a conscious effort when drawing . 
Using FOOTWORK , the Body draws the weapon and 
delivers the cut : unknown to the assailant !

j lee


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