# TLC Top 10 Martial Arts



## LeeKrol (Oct 20, 2002)

Alright, for those of you who didn't catch it, TLC had an hour long show called "Top 10 Ultimate Martial Arts".  Here is the arts they listed as the Top 10, in order :

1)   Shaolin Kung Fu
2)   Karate
3)   Muay Thai Kickboxing
4)   Ninjutsu
5)   Juko-Kai (Combat Ki)
6)   Aikido
7)   Tae Kwon Do
8)   Krav Maga
9)   Kali
10) Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

Hrmmmmm........Muay Thai looks to me like the only one that is even CLOSE to being in the right spot.  I am not sure what the criteria is for this list, but if the criteria is combat applications, this list is dead wrong, and we can thank the UFC and Pride for proving this.  

Think I'm wrong?  Royce Gracie vs. Minoki Ichihara.  The Karateka was quickly dismantled by the BJJ master.  Number 2 vs Number 10 according to the TLC list, and Number 2 was destroyed.  Does the name Fred Ettish ring a bell?  Johnny Rhodes sure rung his bell in the UFC.  I could pull out a flurry of other matches to list, but I think I proved my point.  Anyone that thinks a top Karate or Tae Kwon Do practitioner would beat any quality Muay Thai or BJJ practitioner is living in a fantasy world.

I am wondering what the criteria are?  Influence of the arts?  If that is the case, where is JKD?  Where is Pankration?  Can anyone really make a real case for Juko-Kai being more influential than JKD, wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu?  Please do, I would love to hear it.  

Is the criteria popularity?  Again, where is JKD?  Is Juko-Kai more popular than Tae Kwon Do?  BJJ is gaining mass popularity all over the world.  What about American Boxing?

Is the criteria toughness?  Kali would be much higher than ninth I can promise you that.  Muay Thai and BJJ would be right up there too.  These are some of the toughest fighters on the planet, physically a lot tougher than an Aikido practitioner.  To nip the ensuing ripping from the Aiki-marks right in the bud, name me an Aikido practitioner who would beat Vanderlei Silva, Mirko Cro-Cop, or Ernesto Hoost on the street before you call me ignorant.  When you name some guy no one has ever heard of, answer me this: Why aren't they rolling in Pride or UFC then?  

Is the criteria "the gift of the art to the world"?  Where is wrestling or JKD?  What about boxing?  

Is the criteria beauty of the art?  Where is Capoeira?  Where is Wushu?  Where is Tai Chi?  

What I am ranting about is really very simple : What criteria does this list follow?  I would love to hear what people have to say about this list, defend your arts if you want, and make a Top Ten of your own if so inclined.

I don't like Top Ten lists personally.  How you can take all the different arts, with all of their different theories and contributions to the martial arts world, throw them all together and say which is the best is ridiculous.  I'd love to hear what everyone has to say about this.

Thanks.

Lee M. Krol


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## Kirk (Oct 20, 2002)

Check out this thread
where this discussion has already taken place.


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## ace (Oct 20, 2002)

This List is like a bad Joke!!!

:miffer: :barf: 
:barf: 
:barf:
 :barf: 

TLC has no Clue &^%^&*&&&&^^%#%#$^$^$%^%^%&^&^&%^%%&^&^%&*&$$@$@#@#!@#@$#%$%#$TYTHGFHJJHG$#@$#%$^%^%^%$#$$#$#$$$$$%#%%^^^$%^%&^&^%&^&^&*^%&*%%^$%&^*&*&*(^&(&&^&^&%^&^%&^&^&^&^&^%^&

If u trans late that
it makes about as much as that list.l


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## LeeKrol (Oct 20, 2002)

Thanks Kirk, I didnt realize there was a thread already up.

Maybe this one can spark some more interest, or a new set of viewpoints


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## JDenz (Oct 20, 2002)

Have any you guys seen Rockey 2?  You know the scene where Mic is eating the soup and see's Apollo talking junk about Rockey?  That is the scene that happened in my living room.  Insted of soup Dr. Pepper and Stirfry were on the floor.  A great waste of Dr. Pepper.  But seriously that list is way out of wack.


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## ace (Oct 20, 2002)

That show was Bul  **it

Were was the Shoot Fighting
BJJ #10 

When & Who conduted this List??????????????????????/


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## muayThaiPerson (Oct 20, 2002)

> Thanks Kirk, I didnt realize there was a thread already up.



but u posted on that thread, how could u not kno. u even stated that u made one and gave the link to it.
well...watever


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## JDenz (Oct 20, 2002)

no he didn't kirk did


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## ace (Oct 20, 2002)

After Kirk showed that there was another discustion

Any way U look at it it was awful

TLC  has either been mis lead 
or someone is geting paid $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## Angus (Oct 20, 2002)

Lee Krol,

I disagree with the list, but most of your arguments are BS. To say that top Karate or TKD couldn't beat quality BJJ or MT guys is crap. It's not the art, it's the fighter. Most Karate and TKD guys don't train to fight in Pride and UFC style fighting. If they did, who knows? There have been plenty of really successful fighters that have come from Karate that have won those types of tournaments. Look at guys like Hug and Filho from K-1 (among others). Both were Karatekas. It's simply that both MT and BJJ focus ALL their training on competition (generally), while most other arts do not. Not all have to, you know. 

Not only that, not everyone has to have the desire to fight in UFC and Pride matches to prove the worth of their art. Aikido is NOT a martial sport nor a martial art that lends itself to competition. UFC and Pride ISN'T the street, don't get them confused with it. Just because they don't have the desire to go fight them doesn't mean it's because their art isn't worthy. 

I'm sorry to sound so harsh, but grow up. MMA, MT, and BJJ aren't the be all and end all of martial arts. Pride and UFC aren't the ultimate test of a martial art, not NEARLY. I hate to see this kind of attitude.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Angus _
> 
> *Lee Krol,
> 
> ...


I agree

And people, you also have to take into account the environment and the situation.  The fighting style evolved specifically for the UFC.  If you look in the early episodes, it was a mess.  Now, people's styles are more defined.  The reason it that it is the BEST for THAT environment.  Being with judges, time, rules, a soft mattress they call a ring, etc.

For instance, take the limitations that strikers have.  So obviously, a grappler would have some sort of advantage and that is why it's become such a grappling/takedown/wrestling match-type thing.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 20, 2002)

Angus, 

I agree. Pride, UFC etc. are NOT street fights. I for one would not want to be rolling on the ground in a street fight while his buddies jump on top of me.

If someone thinks a certain art can beat another art they have an immature outlook on fighting...............it's the person not the art.

Case in point: 
As for BJJ beating Karate........refer to the above.
I have worked out with several guys that do BJJ and "claim" to have trained with the Gracies............I beat them........in fact I never lost to them.
What does it mean? Nothing. Is Karate better than BJJ nope............ was I better than the BJJ guys I went against........at that time yes. Who knows how it would turn out today.

Another case in point..........Bob Sapp.

The guy has poor technique in any art.........he wins because he is just big and mean and bulldozes his opponents.


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## ace (Oct 20, 2002)

I f U could not hak it 
U got gone.

The styels that remained were 
ones that could hack it.

Fighters found out what worked & what didn't
And other than UFC 1 & 9

The shows wear  not a mess.

The palotitions made a mess of UFC 9

Lee Krol made some realy good points.
Some people have a hard time faceing
The Facts.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

The UFC didn't prove anything except it is sometimes fun to watch...........other than that.........


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## Marginal (Oct 21, 2002)

What are the
facts?

Only
real
fact U
should know is
t
h
a
t

When one says there is no top ten, then there is probably not a top two either. The call is largely subjective, and situational to boot. You really can't get by with one MA in a mixed venue anymore. That's about all Pride etc have proven at this point. The BJJ types have had to learn striking, the others needed to learn groundfighting and so on.  (Of course, that's not something it took Pride or the UFC to prove either)


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## ace (Oct 21, 2002)

Point Blank!
><><><


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

I think the "Bob Sapp" style of MA is #1.......better living through chemistry.

Inject enough roids and you can beat anyone.........


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## Kenpo Wolf (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *The UFC didn't prove anything except it is sometimes fun to watch...........other than that......... *



I very much agree with this comment. All the UFC amounted to was an event that favored grapplers. This is why they had padded mats, a chain linked fence, and not much area to move around in. What they should have had was a solid floor, a thick plexiglass wall so no one would be able to use it and a larger ring. I like watching the UFC but I'm not obsessed with it. I see it as entertainment rather then a true application of martial arts


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## Damian Mavis (Oct 21, 2002)

Primo... what can I tell ya man.... you're spouting the same ol crap that every martial artist says at one point in their career.  All martial artists have egos and want to believe that what they are doing in particular and how they train is somewhat superior to everyone else.  I too believed this, but I matured in the martial arts and am a little wiser now.  I've met fools and killers in all walks of life when it comes to martial arts and I've learned that although some styles better prepare a person for certain situations it all comes down to if a person is dedicated/talented enough to use whatever they have to win.  I know a couple of TKD guys that are tougher than anyone I've ever met,  I've also met a couple of MMA guys that could be beaten by my Grandma (both these cases are the extreme and rare but completely true)... it all has to do with the individual.  Beleiving a style or form of training is the easy answer to everything is silly and delusional.  It's all about dedication, ability and heart.  You can find that rare combo in a few people in all martial arts.

You got to humble yourself and realise that there's more to combat then what you might know.  I realise this every single day.  Honestly the only reason I'm telling you all this is because your a little younger than me and I'm thinking in 15 to 20 years your going to be a seasoned martial artist that is much wiser and more knowledgeable in ALL forms of martial arts.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## ace (Oct 21, 2002)

True application of Submissons
Where defenitly shown.

Survival was defintly showen.

Back to TLC i still would like to know who
Did a serva or how they came up with this list.

Now im no Medic or Doctor
So if Bob Sapp is Using steroids i don't know.
But i won't acuse any one of drug use
with out proof.
><><><


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## ace (Oct 21, 2002)

Primo.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *.
> 
> ...




Let's see he played in the NFL.............nah........no steroid use there.............all those boys are clean living, wouldn't catch any of them taking performance enhancing drugs.


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## ace (Oct 21, 2002)

I never said the did not but i have know proff so 
I don't acuse anyone of anything.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *I never said the did not but i have know proff so
> I don't acuse anyone of anything. *





If you want proof I guess you will have to follow him around for a while with a paper cup and then give him a "Whiz Quiz" and find out.


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## ace (Oct 21, 2002)

But U keep me posted.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

I seriously doubt he would admit taking steriods...........since most people that do deny it. In fact the only person I remember ever hearing admitting to it was "Arnie".

Since you are the guy with the doubts and wants the proof........you will have to do your own dirty work.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

As long as the "street effective" question has come up with UFC, PRIDE Gracies and so on..............

Let's look at Royce Gracie........the guy loves to be on his back in a fight and quite often wins from there.

I am wondering how long he would last in a street confrontation doing that same technique. It would seem that if the guy on top had a friend he just might be there kicking the crap out of the guy on his back as well. 
Is it such a practical technique for the street........... NO. Has it been used to win in the UFC......YES.

Winning at anything is all about "resolve"............if you want to win and have a good strategy to do so your chances are good that you will, if the other person has more resolve and wants to win and has a better strategy he just might win...........it's true in anything. 

Back to the "Top 10"..............

I do agree that the criteria for how they were ranked is suspect.
It would be interesting to know who ranked them and how.

I notice Jukokai/Combat Ki are at number 5.

That is a joke. I have had dealings with the Soke  of Jukkokai and know for a fact he is a fake and has been exposed as such.

You can read all about the lovely folks at Jukokai here:



http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/sea...d=129453&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending


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## ace (Oct 21, 2002)

But he does have over 350 realitives 
all of which are fighters,

He is usaly with a train of people.
Most grapplers do train with a lot of people.

Now lets say the is on the bottom but pulles out a knife.
Or Vise versa.

However in most of Royce's fight that he was on the botom 
was with heavier stronger guy's.

The ones close in weight were usaly taken down&
Mounted.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *But he does have over 350 realitives
> all of which are fighters, *



and........





> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *He is usaly with a train of people.
> Most grapplers do train with a lot of people.*




What is this supposed to mean?




> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *Now lets say the is on the bottom but pulles out a knife.
> Or Vise versa.*



Again.....What is this supposed to mean?

Sorry Ace but between your spelling mistakes and grammar usage I really find it hard to following some of your posts.


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## ace (Oct 21, 2002)

:miffer: :barf:


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## bob919 (Oct 21, 2002)

muay thai fighters are probably some of the toughest fighters in the world but this is not only cause of there technique its tere training they have a pain tolerance through the roof and every single move (with the possible exceptiongs of some of the hand techniques) is very powerful 

in BJJ the average fighter is weeker because they dont go through all the training unless they want to add some but unlike muay thai they have trowing techniques  i believe the average muay thai boer could win against the average BJJ practisioner but if they had equal strength and speed the BJJ practisioner would win 

but again it depends on the person cause some people have a real killer instinct and even un trained fighters with this can beat up on most martial artists

as for the best martial arts i would go for the navy seals fighting technique (forgot the name) cause its simple no holds barred it has techniques for all ranges it is truely on e of the best of the fighting techniques 

adding jee kune do principles to your fighting can increase your efficiency very quickly and easily 

but it is almost impossible really to say which martial art is the best for fighting its easier to look at which martial artist is the bvest

(ramble)(ramble)(ramble)


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## KennethKu (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> * Back to the "Top 10"..............I notice Jukokai/Combat Ki are at number 5.  That is a joke. I have had dealings with the Soke  of Jukkokai and know for a fact he is a fake and has been exposed as such.
> 
> ...




My view has always been, if it looks unreal, then allow me to do the kicking and hitting, then I'll believe you.      Allow me to kick his nuts and chop his throat. If he is still chewing bubble gum leisurely, then I'll bow to him.


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## Marginal (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *But he does have over 350 realitives
> all of which are fighters,*


So they keep the other guys off Royce in street fights?



> He is usaly with a train of people.


He does have a cool entrance in those early UFC's allright. I didn't think he just walked around like that in the street though. 



> *Most grapplers do train with a lot of people.*


So he's experienced in training with people? 



> Now lets say the is on the bottom but pulles out a knife.
> Or Vise versa.


Ok. So, then what? Guy with knife wins I imagine.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Marginal _
> 
> *
> 
> Ok. So, then what? Guy with knife wins I imagine. *




Hey that's a good idea.

Maybe they should let participants in the UFC and PRIDE use knives and guns to show us how *"REAL"* it is.


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## Bod (Oct 21, 2002)

Do you live in a grassy area with chain link fences where one on one fights against big guys are common? Learn BJJ!

Are you in an urban environment, constantly up against gangs of smallish unskilled scrotes who threaten to stab you in the back? Learn Ninpo or Ba Gua!

Are you afraid that in twenty years time you will be old and unable to protect yourself, and have a family history of rheumatiod arthritis? Learn Tai Chi!

Do you have a private army which you need to train in hand-to-hand skills in a matter of weeks, and are more interested in keeping up their aggresion levels than teaching them to handle violence proportionally? Teach them Navy Seals training!

Do you live in an area characterised by high levels of gun crime and a weapons permit is easy to obtain? Then learn to shoot!

How long do I have to make this list before people stop saying UFC is tops, etc., etc.


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## 7starmantis (Oct 21, 2002)

I would have to say that any time you start trying to make a list as to what system or art is better than another you are going to get yourself in toruble. I mean I could say my Camero is faster than your car, but then how do I knwo what kind of work you have done on it? Thats the same thinking when comparing systems. It all depends on the actuall person and their training. The system to a point gives advantages, but anyone can beat anyone on any given night. There are too many variables to consider.

JMO
7sm


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *.............. but anyone can beat anyone on any given night. There are too many variables to consider.
> *




.........and there in lies the true meaning of training.......... and that is not mastery over everyone else............only mastery over oneself


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LeeKrol _
> 
> *.......... Can anyone really make a real case for Juko-Kai being more influential than JKD, wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu?  Please do, I would love to hear it.  *




It would seem a member of Jukokai is/was on the production crew for the show..........I guess that's why.


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## Kirk (Oct 21, 2002)

All the disagreement of the list order, and what made the list
or didn't ... it was still pretty cool to watch.


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## JDenz (Oct 21, 2002)

Lol if you think Karate or Kung Fu is better then MT for striking lol I think the fighting records speak for themselves.  Besides UFC PRIDE KOTC UCC they are alot closer to street fighting then piont sparring.  And the dog Brothers look more then equipped to go in and win any Bar or street fight.


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## JDenz (Oct 21, 2002)

Re: Gracie dose like the botom 
quote: Originally posted by ace 

(If you have watched the UFC's you would know that Gracie always tried to get tp position,  Not to mention the only gracies anywhere near the top ten in any rankings are Renzo and Ryan)

But he does have over 350 realitives 
all of which are fighters, 
So they keep the other guys off Royce in street fights?
(What Ace is saying is that Royce is always going to be with alot of people and not alot of people are going to be stomping him when they are fighting his 20 cousins that are with him and his 30 students)

quote: He is usaly with a train of people. 
He does have a cool entrance in those early UFC's allright. I didn't think he just walked around like that in the street though. 

quote: Most grapplers do train with a lot of people. 
So he's experienced in training with people? 
(Ace was saying that They train in striking as well)  

quote: Now lets say the is on the bottom but pulles out a knife.
Or Vise versa. 
Ok. So, then what? Guy with knife wins I imagine.
 (=-) that is true)


Report this


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## kenposcum (Oct 21, 2002)

Saw the show.
Vomited profusely.
Agree with Bod's post: if you...then take (name of art).
:asian:


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## Angus (Oct 21, 2002)

Again, JDenz, if you take a style of Karate that specializes in full contact fighting (ie, Kyokushin, etc) and have them train as hard as most MT fighters, and you have an equally qualified fighter. It has FAR less to do with the art and MUCH more to do with the fighter and how they train (very very important). 

Not all Karate is point sparring.


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## ace (Oct 21, 2002)

Wasn't there a Kyokusin fighter 
In UFC 7??

They guy Paul Varlenz fought??


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## JDenz (Oct 21, 2002)

Gerry Harris was the guys name Primo here is here record

Loss Paul Varelans  Submission (Elbows on the Ground) UFC 7 - The Brawl in Buffalo  9-8-1995  

Loss Igor Guerus  KO IFC 1 - Kombat in Kiev  3-30-1996 No  No  

Loss Hugo Duarte  Submission (Punches) UVF 2 - Universal Vale Tudo Fighting 2  6-24-1996  

Win Harry Moskowitz  Submission (Guillotine Choke) IFC 2 - Mayhem in Mississippi  8-23-1996  

Loss Vasily Kudin  Submission (Strikes) AFC 2 - Absolute Fighting Championship 2 (Day 2)  5-2-1997 


If you notice his only win came with a submission hold


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## Angus (Oct 21, 2002)

Probably wasn't that great of a fighter by their standards. I stick by my claim: it has nothing to do with the art, it's all about the fighter and how they train.


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## JDenz (Oct 22, 2002)

LOL Defintily it is the fighter that is the whole point.  If a guy was strickly Karate or Kung-fu he would lose everytime.  The fighters that win start in those disaplines and pick up MT and some form of ground fighting.


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## Nyoongar (Oct 22, 2002)

I think it is more of a combination.

1) The individual (physical and mental attributes)

2) Instruction (good art with cr#p instruction means nothing)

3) The art (the style and the way you train)

4) The reason you train.  Just like any sport you can tailor your training to meet your needs.

UFC rules are weighted towards grapplers.  If you want to be a UFC fighter, you have to know how to grapple, be somewhat all rounded and be fit.  Everything that I'm not!


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## ace (Oct 22, 2002)

Conditioning, Stand up & the Ground Game.

The UFC was talyored to what works in the 
Octogan

And Thats a Fight!
><><><


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## Nyoongar (Oct 22, 2002)

The UFC is not real fight.  Maybe one of the nearest legal things to a fight, but its not a real fight.  There are lots of rules.  In a fight real fight there are no rules.

And there needs to be rules or the UFC fighters would be killing each other every night!


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## JDenz (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nyoongar _
> 
> *I think it is more of a combination.
> 
> ...



ask some Perdo Rizzo fought if UFC is weighted towards grapplers. Soft floors help the strikers just as much.  Landing on your head and or shoulder is alot more painfull and dehabiliting on concreate or pavement or a fire hydrent then a canvas mat.


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## Matt Stone (Oct 22, 2002)

As we sit here and watch all these pro-BJJ folks jumping up and down shouting "I'm better than youuuuuu are! I'm better than youuuuuu are!', it seems everyone has forgotten about the Kali folks listed at #6 (if I remember correctly).

I would love to see a BJJ guy try to close the distance with me as  I sling stick at his exposed melon...  Go ahead, block the stick with your hands!  Go ahead, try to grab me as I bash you about the head and shoulders with fire-hardened rattan!

I'm sorry, but for all the a$$-kicking BJJ folks out there, I would love to see a BJJist toe to toe with someone that is armed and pi$$ed off...  Somehow, seeing a BJJ vs. Pekiti Tirsia fight would be one worth watching, even if it is only going to result in a BJJist starting off with a white uniform, and going home with it being mostly (blood) red...

Enough ***** talking among the young 'uns...  BJJ has its strengths, as does Muay Thai and karate and kung fu ad nauseum...  Those who have to prove they are the best, or that their art is the best, are those who still have much to learn and much to gain from Viagra...

Gambarimasu.


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## JDenz (Oct 22, 2002)

Kali was rated number 9 one better then BJJ, not a problem with me but they should be top 3


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## ace (Oct 22, 2002)

I've Done Submisson Grappling & MMA

Im a Black belt in Arnis which is FMA.


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## Damian Mavis (Oct 22, 2002)

How long does a black belt in Arnis take?   I take Kali.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## ace (Oct 22, 2002)

im a Lakan Isa
1st Dagree Black Belt.

The Art goes around the indavidual
Some take longer than others.


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## Kenpo Wolf (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *,,,Soft floors help the strikers just as much. Landing on your head and or shoulder is alot more painfull and dehabiliting on concreate or pavement or a fire hydrent then a canvas mat. *



No disrespect meant, JDenz, but that's total bull. A padded floor slows a stand up fighter down where a grappler would be in his element. Time yourself doing a technique on and off a padded mat and you will definitely see a difference. I'm not dissing grapplers as they have a tremendous advantage when its one on one, but there is more to the martial arts then just the UFC and their enclosed cage with no room to move


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## ace (Oct 22, 2002)

Being dumped on there head would slow them down too

Vanderla seems to do just fine on his feet.

There are good stand up fighters in MMA.
But U need to know the Ground game

Ask Mo.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *....... If a guy was strickly Karate or Kung-fu he would lose everytime.   *





I am strictly Karate...............how come I have never lost to a ground fighter??????

I guess it doesn't make a difference what you study.....


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## Nyoongar (Oct 22, 2002)

Only how you study?


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> I would love to see a BJJ guy try to close the distance with me as  I sling stick at his exposed melon...  Go ahead, block the stick with your hands!  Go ahead, try to grab me as I bash you about the head and shoulders with fire-hardened rattan!
> *



How about this.............since Okinawan Karate also incorporates weapons into it I would love to see one of those guys try to "reach out and touch" me while I use both my razor sharp steel Kama on him and lop off pork shop size chunks from their arms or whatever comes within striking distance. Or I could take my steel Sai and "spit roast" them...............fun, fun, fun.........


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nyoongar _
> 
> *Only how you study? *




Exactly!!

You fight like you train.


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## ace (Oct 22, 2002)

I use wepons too
I can fight on the ground
& hold my own it the stand up.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *
> & hold my own it the stand up. *



Really? I heard it will give you hairy palms...........


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## ace (Oct 22, 2002)

That was funny!


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## MartialArtist (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *I f U could not hak it
> U got gone.
> ...


The UFC proved what worked and didn't work in the UFC, not anywhere else.

And anyway, most the people on the UFC are a joke.  Not Shamrock, Ortiz, a few Japanese guys, but the people claiming to be shaolin monks or ninjas.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I think the "Bob Sapp" style of MA is #1.......better living through chemistry.
> 
> Inject enough roids and you can beat anyone......... *


Roids slow you down too much.  Any type of supplement or substance that plays around with your endocrine system shouldn't be messed with, especially testosterone, adrenaline, and insulin.


----------



## MartialArtist (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *Primo... what can I tell ya man.... you're spouting the same ol crap that every martial artist says at one point in their career.  All martial artists have egos and want to believe that what they are doing in particular and how they train is somewhat superior to everyone else.  I too believed this, but I matured in the martial arts and am a little wiser now.  I've met fools and killers in all walks of life when it comes to martial arts and I've learned that although some styles better prepare a person for certain situations it all comes down to if a person is dedicated/talented enough to use whatever they have to win.  I know a couple of TKD guys that are tougher than anyone I've ever met,  I've also met a couple of MMA guys that could be beaten by my Grandma (both these cases are the extreme and rare but completely true)... it all has to do with the individual.  Beleiving a style or form of training is the easy answer to everything is silly and delusional.  It's all about dedication, ability and heart.  You can find that rare combo in a few people in all martial arts.
> 
> ...


Agreed

A lot of young people want to learn everything possible.  They try taking boxing, wrestling, karate, TKD, muay thai, and BJJ at the same time.  All they end up doing is slowing their progress down and just making them more confused and inept.

Most decisions on any uninformed person on the arts are pretty much based on the media.


----------



## MartialArtist (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *Lol if you think Karate or Kung Fu is better then MT for striking lol I think the fighting records speak for themselves.  Besides UFC PRIDE KOTC UCC they are alot closer to street fighting then piont sparring.  And the dog Brothers look more then equipped to go in and win any Bar or street fight. *


Seeing you're from Buffalo and you talk like that, I can say your knowledge in the arts IS LOW.

First off, don't use such generic terms if you want to compare or contrast certain arts.  But the way you contrast them in the sense that one is better is just stupid, and you even trying to...

There are things called KO fighting.  It doesn't end till you give up or are knocked out.


----------



## MartialArtist (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *Wasn't there a Kyokusin fighter
> In UFC 7??
> ...


Wasn't there a Shaolin monk in one of the episodes?  Oh wait, Shaolin monks don't exist like their legendary predecessors.  So who must that guy be?


----------



## MartialArtist (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *LOL Defintily it is the fighter that is the whole point.  If a guy was strickly Karate or Kung-fu he would lose everytime.  The fighters that win start in those disaplines and pick up MT and some form of ground fighting. *




I diagnose you with the common "UFC" syndrome using MT and some ground fighting for your be and end all system.  Please learn how to spell.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> 
> I diagnose you with the common "UFC" syndrome using MT and some ground fighting for your be and end all system.  Please learn how to spell. *





 UFC is hard for me to spell....


----------



## arnisador (Oct 23, 2002)

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

There was alot of Gung Fu & Karate
But that went away Quick.


My progress has gone fine 

I live in BUFFALO, N.Y.
Yeah i guess being 27 is young.


UFC Made it's poiont i don't need to defend it
If U don't like don't Watch.

If U live in a cloud or under a rock
It's ok with Me.:wavey: 
Ill bow out of this war for Now 

Take Care Bye Bye


----------



## bob919 (Oct 23, 2002)

I agree

UFC is the closest thing we can get to pure fighting and staying legal(ish)
so basically its the best way to compare the martial arts for street effectiveness other than ufc  the only way inwhich you can test the effectiveness of martial arts is on the street but it probably isn't the best way cause you'll probably get stabbed 

but as said their are problems with UFC such as it is comparing individual fighters rather than the martial arts i think you'll all agree that the UFC fighters are far more aggressive and stronger than most martial artists but then again as are streetfighters

so there is no way you can test a martial art alone but you can test yourself how effective you are in combat but do you really want to go about picking fights with everyone.


----------



## The 14th Style (Oct 23, 2002)

Okay, do we have to do this my style is better than your style thing again? What's the point? I mean every few years a new style comes out or an old style is rediscovered and it becomes the flavor of the month. And then everybody says it is the only one that works. In the late 70's I think it was Karate, then in the 80's it was Ninjutsu. In the 90's it was bjj and now it's mixed martial art's. No disrespect intended. Each of these styles and the 900 I didn't mention have many things to offer! Find the one that works for you and go for it! Anything else is not that important.  
OK, People have been hitting each other since the dawn of time, if anybody thinks something new has been discovered in the last ten years and that none of the older styles are useful anymore, well they are full of what I like to call bovine scatology. 
 If you think your art is better than everybody else's (and you know who you are) fine, great, go out and PROVE IT. And don't tell me so and so proved it or it's been proved in the ring. Because that was someone else victory not yours. You go and prove it. Go challenge people from other schools and styles. And I don't mean the new students, go find some of their best and lay it on the line! Then you will see what works and what doesn't. I have a friend and teacher named Phil Romero whom teaches Wing Chun and I have watched him blow people up many times. He knows his art works because he has used it. He has fought live, for money and on the street. He has taken challenges from guys from many different arts, alley fighting,no ring,no rules. Sometimes he lost and sometimes he won. But he learned what worked. And thank God he is now teaching it to me!  
My point Is this, don't discount someone's art just because it's not what you do. Live and learn.  Oh, and by the way my Dad can beat up all your dad's!

:soapbox:
P.S. no this is not directed at any one person 
    The 14th Style


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

:redeme: 
My Dad said Bring it
LoL
:snipe2: :snipe2: :snipe2:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *
> My Dad said Bring it
> *




What does that mean?


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

><><><


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2002)

I have to agree with The 14th Style completely. Not much else to be said, there is nothing new being discovered that makes anything "better than your art". Lets just respect all arts and all MAist and take things on a case by case issue. I know some boxers who could beat many a TKD Black belt, I also know some Kung Fu guys who could beat up on some bjj guys, I also know some mma guys who could beat up on some karate guys, need I go on? 


7sm


----------



## RyuShiKan (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *I have to agree with The 14th Style completely. Not much else to be said, there is nothing new being discovered that makes anything "better than your art". Lets just respect all arts and all MAist and take things on a case by case issue. I know some boxers who could beat many a TKD Black belt, I also know some Kung Fu guys who could beat up on some bjj guys, I also know some mma guys who could beat up on some karate guys, need I go on?
> 
> ...





It has probably been said at least 100 times on this BBs.......but here it goes again......"It's never the style but the person"


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *It has probably been said at least 100 times on this BBs.......but here it goes again......"It's never the style but the person" *



That is exactly my point !!


----------



## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

The things that just get my blood just boiling over about this all
are that 1) MMAers have a LOT more boards on the net than most
other arts.  Yet they feel it necessary to come on every single
other martial arts board, and go on and on about how awesome 
their style is, and dog on other ones etcetera, etcetera.  2)  They
always bring it up .. yet act invisible when people bring legitimate
logic to the table.  They just ignore it all together!  But time and
time again, especially now in the gen m.a. forum of this site ... 
they infest all threads with their rhetoric.  I used to read every
new posting in Gen M.A.  .... now I read very few.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *The things that just get my blood just boiling over about this all
> are that 1) MMAers have a LOT more boards on the net than most
> ...




I don't mind.

To me it reminds me of those religious nuts that have to tell everyone how "great" & "better' their religion is compared to everyone else's............
by repeating the same old rhetoric all the time I can't help but wonder if they I trying to convince me or themselves.


----------



## KennethKu (Oct 23, 2002)

Isn't the Lumphini Stadium in Thailand open to all fighters?

Anyone who has anything to prove can go for the prize money there.


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

I also have studied Arnis, Jkd/ Mauy Thai

I've done Ju Jitsu,Wrestling, Boxing
I've been to Bondo Seminars many of them
I've been to NinJitsu seminars

I've trained Wit Judoka's & Somboist.

So yes i can & will talk in the other forums
Since im familar with the subject.

Kirk Are U that same Guy they said 
Needed a Hug??????????????????


:wah: :wah: :wah: 
I guess U have not goton it yet.
><><><


----------



## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *I also have studied Arnis, Jkd/ Mauy Thai
> 
> ...



Once again you choose to result to personal attack, instead of
addressing the facts and issues brought up.  You fit the 
stereotype quite well.  Is it your contention that you're the only
one that has the right to post their beliefs?

Are you the same guy that can't/won't address *ALL* of the
issues presented in threads such as these?

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4288
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4289
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4291

Guess you're one of them, since I haven't seen your posts on 
any of them.


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

But U are the one Who said MMA 
should stay in There Forum

U fit the cartoon:wah: 
:flammad: :bird:


----------



## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *But U are the one Who said MMA
> should stay in There Forum
> ...



Nice way to address the issues ... NOT!


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

:bomb: :EG: :bomb:


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2002)

OH COME ON !!

Can we get this thread locked or something? Lets please not have another stupid fight in here. 

7sm


----------



## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *OH COME ON !!
> 
> ...



Don't worry, I am NOT going there!


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

The Realit Check won't go away><><><

TLC needs one any one know how to get in touch with 
Them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:fart: :fart: :fart: :fart:


----------



## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

The Learning Channel is owned by the Discovery Channel.
To contact them, click  here:

http://tlc.discovery.com/utilities/about/contact.html

It will say:
If you have a question or comment related to television programming or Internet feature at Discovery.com, please contact our Viewer Relations staff.
Click on "Viewer Relations".


----------



## JDenz (Oct 23, 2002)

First of all any surface that slows down a striker ie: mats is going to slow down a a grappler as well.   What is the most dangerous time for a grappler?  Closing to the clinch,  If you think slow footing helps a grappler it doesn't, it actually makes it harder to take a good striker down.  The only arguement that works about UFC being weighted towards grapplers is the cage.   But so what fight in a ring then.   I don't hear boxers or kickboxers or MT guys say fighting in a ring takes away there striking.  
      No offense to anyone but you are the guys that are resorting to personal attacks, I havent attacked anyone and Primo was commenting on a diffrent thread wth regards to kirk.  
       What is wrong with Buffalo.  We are in a great spot we are less then a 2 hour drive from good instruction in any art.  Toronto is practicly around the cornor, we have Hartmen here, We have great seminor, Esfhia is right down the road in Rocester.   
         Comparing fighting to religion is kind of accurate.  I mean Most of the eastern arts have a whole religion base in them pretty much.  For your guys information I have been to a Zen Buddist Temple, I have done Zen services with Sholin monks when they were in town. (Canada)  They were pretty cool, but that doesn't mean I think they could really fight.  
           To the guy that said he has fought alot of grapplers and never lost, I have fought alot of strikers and never lost does that mean striking sucks?  No it means I havent fought the a guy that could strike good and hard enough to finish me.  I guarentie if you walked into a BJJ school and challenged everyone someone would probley beat you just like if I walked into a Karate school and challenged them.  I started in Karate for three years saw how weak it was in alot of areas and augmented my training with submission fighting and boxing.


----------



## JDenz (Oct 23, 2002)

Thanks for the post KIRK.  As the thread was started we want to know what the critera was for the rankings.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2002)

I'm going to make a statement that will most likely get me some crappy comments, but here goes:
Regardless of the style, if a person trains extremely hard, and long, they can be a good fighter, again, regardless of style. 
People are coming in here saying grappling and bjj is a reality chekc, I say extreme trainers are the reality check, not someone who studies a specific style.


7sm


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

Thats the Reality Check

& U are Rite If 
U train long & hard U can Win.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *Thats the Reality Check
> 
> ...



MMA is Striking 7 Grappling     What does that mean?

Anyway, my system has quite a bit of both worlds as well there, so I would say it is a reality check that you know both. The reality check is that traditional MAist have been half@ss training and now are having to realize that people are training harder now. I wouldn't try to say that any specific move is new, they have ALL been done before, believe me.

7sm


----------



## bob919 (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *I'm going to make a statement that will most likely get me some crappy comments, but here goes:
> Regardless of the style, if a person trains extremely hard, and long, they can be a good fighter, again, regardless of style.
> ...



so true ithink everyone ios looking for the ultimate martial art or a special secret dimmak knock out point newsflash people; neither of these exist  it is near enough impossible to compare the martial arts street effectiveness with one another all i cna say is almost all martial arts are over complicated with too many techniques. it is better to know 10 techniques 100% than 100 techniques 10%.


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

I didnt hold the shift long enough.
So it came up 7 LoL Sorry


----------



## KennethKu (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *I'm going to make a statement that will most likely get me some crappy comments, but here goes:
> Regardless of the style, if a person trains extremely hard, and long, they can be a good fighter, again, regardless of style.
> ...



You made a  statement of truth.  The training and conditioning intensity is the biggest factor.

However, there are inherent weakness and strength in each style. A competent BJJ person would not go to the ground when facing multiple attackers.  A striker would not go to the ground with a grappler.  A grappler would not get in a close range striking match against the elbows and knees of a MT fighter.  IF you are any good at your MA, you ought to know its weakness and strength, and adapt accordingly.

Often, people judge the strength and weakness of a MA based on its sport version.  That is distortion to the Nth degree.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *You made a  statement of truth.  The training and conditioning intensity is the biggest factor.
> 
> ...



Well with no sport version of my system it makes it hard for me to judge others. I prefer to judge the fighter on a case by case basis. The key to training is to withstand your personal weaknesses in training. If you have a weakness with certain techniques you work on and against those techniques in training. 

7sm


----------



## ace (Oct 23, 2002)

In Mauy Thai They do clinch.
This is were Grappling begin.

I don't Know any Grapplers that travel alone
Of corse Fighting Mutipal oppents is 
Not Good for any style
The odds are always in the #'s

A striker should Watch out for Mutipal Grapplers
2 Legs 2 Arms  Snap Crakel Pop

LoL no afence
it's a joke he he haha


:snipe2:
 :snipe2: :snipe2:


----------



## KennethKu (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Well with no sport version of my system it makes it hard for me to judge others. I prefer to judge the fighter on a case by case basis. The key to training is to withstand your personal weaknesses in training. If you have a weakness with certain techniques you work on and against those techniques in training.
> 7sm *



Are you saying that the Mantis system has no weakness?


----------



## KennethKu (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *In Mauy Thai They do clinch.
> This is were Grappling begin.
> ...



All very true, except for  "I don't Know any Grapplers that travel alone".


----------



## RyuShiKan (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *The Realit Check won't go away><><><
> 
> ...




I sent TLC and The Discovery Channel several letters asking them how & why they had certain folks ranked or even on the show. 

There reply was they had farmed all the production out to another company to produce and therefore had nothing to do with making the show.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 23, 2002)

Sorry I'm late to the party..its been a long day..

Folks, Keep it polite and respectful, and keep it on topic. The drift in heres a bit much.

Thank you
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *Isn't the Lumphini Stadium in Thailand open to all fighters?
> 
> Anyone who has anything to prove can go for the prize money there. *




I think it is but you have to use Muay Thai Rules from what I hear.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *    However, there are inherent weakness and strength in each style. *



I disagree in part. There are only weaknesses in the person practicing the art..........not the art itself.
Sorry to say but most MA people  these days don't stick with a style long enough and give up and go somehwere else. 




> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *  A competent BJJ person would not go to the ground when facing multiple attackers.*



True. Like I said above..........it's not the art that has the weakness. If a grappler thinks he can go to the ground with one guy while the guys friends just stand around and watch his strategy has a weakness. Grappling arts that I have seen have scenarios to deal with multiple attackers that don't call for going to the ground.





> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *  A striker would not go to the ground with a grappler.*



Again it depends on the situation. Okinawan Karate has various grappling components in it called "tuite". 




> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *  IF you are any good at your MA, you ought to know its weakness and strength, and adapt accordingly.*




I agree. I think too many people don't realize or a just not taught how make their art effective against other types of art so they "dojo hop" or "style hop". The result is they often get a mish mash of bits and pieces.



> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *Often, people judge the strength and weakness of a MA based on its sport version.  That is distortion to the Nth degree. *



I agree.

Since we all agree that the TLC list sucks I made another poll.

Please read the following criteria for ranking martial arts and rank them with a *brief* description for why you put them in that order. Please don't wave your styles flag and don't slam other styles in your answers. 

Which do you think are #'s 1~10 in each of the following categories:
(1 being the best)


I am not going to give you a MA style list so fill in whatever style you like. 

1) All around non-sport fighting, save your *** on the street effectiveness from one or more attackers?

2) A balance of spiritual and physical training?

3) Most traditional while remaining street effective?

4) Most traditional while being sport effective?

5) Least traditional while being street effective?

6) Least traditional while being sport effective?

7) The easiest to learn and then actually do?
(clarify if it is sport oriented or street oriented...........don't put "both" since sport techniques are often different than street)

8) Most fun to watch in competition?

Section 2:

1) Which category do you put yourself into sports martial artist or training for the street? 
(clarify if it is sport oriented or street oriented...........don't put "both" since sport techniques are often different than street)

2) If you compete in sport how many events have you entered and won?
(key word here is won meaning nemero uno #1)

3) If you train for street how many times have you used it?
(since you will be answering this I assume you "won" since you are still with us)

4) What do you feel is the most important aspect of martial arts training?
(be brief)

5) How would you rate your skill level as a martial artist?
(no flag waving or egos please)


----------



## Kirk (Oct 23, 2002)

Just to chime support, I'm speaking up here.  I think your poll
is a great idea, but personally, I don't have enough time in
to be able to given an educated answer.  I'd be "shooting from
the hip".


----------



## bob919 (Oct 24, 2002)

actually every art has a weakness i am not gonna bore you by listing them

you say that people don't stick with a single art long enough that my be true but moving to a differnt art after a couple of years is advantageous because it can help fill the holes in your training


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *Are you saying that the Mantis system has no weakness? *



Basically yes, what I'm saying is the weakness in training that so many people feel the need to fill by "crosstraining" is a weakness in the individual, not the system they are training in. Don't get me wrong, there are people who cross train for very specific reasons, but the people who say they are cross training to get well rounded, and learn striking from this art and kicks from this art, they are only feeding their weakness I believe. If you stick to one or a few systems that are very closely related, you will see your own inherant weaknesses and you can pinpoint them and train out those weaknesses. Its just my opinion but what I ask people most when they say a system didn't work for them is, " It didn't work for you, or you didn't work for it"?. 

7sm


----------



## Matt Stone (Oct 24, 2002)

While I would typically be arguing against Kirk for one reason or another (seems like we have had our share of differences in the past), I have to toss my flag into his camp on this one...

It seems, all too often, that people think they can study a particular martial art for a certain period of time, and then they will know enough about it to start spouting off about all its weaknesses.  After they rant long enough, they start looking around for another martial art that will fit their bill a little better (i.e. faster promotions, less forms, faster train up rate, whatever...).

It seems to be an epidemic in the years since the first UFC that people believe that they can take a little Muay Thai to "develop their stand up _game_," and take a little BJJ to "develop their ground _game_," and they will somehow manage to be a super duper ultra champ.

Fine.  The formula works for those interested in such things.

But the thing I notice is that these people are rarely content.  They train and train and train, but in the end they still start looking around again trying to add things to their _game_.

The other thing I get a real kick out of are the folks that think that seminars alone give them an insight into a martial art.  Seminars are brief snapshots, and if done correctly, will give you far more information than you could possibly absorb in the short period of time a person is in attendance.  Even if a person video tapes the seminar, and goes back to train on the subject matter taught, they will still fall short in comparison to the person that actually studies with that style full time.  I don't think anyone would argue this point.

But a seminar here, and a seminar there, in vastly different martial arts, will _not_, in my opinion, allow someone to develop any degree of skill in those disparate styles.  There is simply too little follow up on what was taught, how it was trained, and the context in which those techniques are intended to be used.

I think that, while there are some very rare exceptions, seminar training is more like continuing education than it is basic education.  If you already have a strong foundation, it is easier to absorb ideas from seminars.  If you are hopping around from school to school, seminar to seminar, in search of that ultimate weapon to add to your arsenal, I think you would be better off studying consistently at a good mini-mall karate school...  At least there is direct supervision of that training, whereas such supervision after the seminar is non-existent.

While I am a hard core traditionalist, and believe firmly that the MMA people are deluding themselves with their approach to MA in general (and their attitude toward traditional, classical styles in particular), I won't deny that there have been many champions produced by their formula of training...

Of course, there were some slaves that survived their encounters with lions back in Rome, too...  Not saying it is only dumb luck, but it makes you wonder...

My best advice - search out, find, and visit a school that is classical in its orientation.  If they can't break down the forms, don't go there.  If they are more focused on tournament trophies than training, don't go there.  If they have more patches on their uniforms than they have thumbs, don't go there.  If their teacher claims high grade rank (over 4th degree) and is less than 30 years old, don't go there.  If you are expected to attend a personal interview, are not allowed to visit to watch class, are told you are not allowed to study elsewhere while attending that school, are required to tithe your income to the teacher, are expected to call _anyone_ grandmaster or other inflated titles, or the instructor's inability to answer the tough questions is excused by the alleged secrecy of the style, *don't go there*.

If you can clear all those hurdles with ease, I suggest you study there and get to it as quickly as you can.  Stick with it, and all the "secrets" you hope to find will reveal themselves to you when you are ready to understand them.

Gambarimasu.


----------



## Kirk (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *While I would typically be arguing against Kirk for one reason or another (seems like we have had our share of differences in the past), I have to toss my flag into his camp on this one...
> *



Don't worry, I won't let it go to my head.  :rofl: :rofl: 

Seriously though, I yeild to your experience and knowledge, and
admit to being a hot head, often.  I totally respect your ... umm ...
unbiasedness?  (is that even a word).



> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *My best advice - search out, find, and visit a school that is classical in its orientation.  If they can't break down the forms, don't go there.  If they are more focused on tournament trophies than training, don't go there.  If they have more patches on their uniforms than they have thumbs, don't go there.  If their teacher claims high grade rank (over 4th degree) and is less than 30 years old, don't go there.  If you are expected to attend a personal interview, are not allowed to visit to watch class, are told you are not allowed to study elsewhere while attending that school, are required to tithe your income to the teacher, are expected to call anyone grandmaster or other inflated titles, or the instructor's inability to answer the tough questions is excused by the alleged secrecy of the style, don't go there.
> 
> ...



This would be great as a mini article, on a website or something.
Mind if I steal it?


----------



## ace (Oct 24, 2002)

Strikers friends go to stomp
Grapplers friends takes Strikers Friends 
To the Ground Snap Crackel PoP

Grapplers seemt to be alone in every
Fight posted

If the Grappler takes U down & mounts U 
Don't worry about Submisson

The Straight Blast to the Face Will be good enough.

Also if The Grappler dose a
Double Leg Slam

On the Cocrete It's  gonna Send Reality Crashing thru a Window

Striking & Grappling  
Together is The Way to go>


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## Matt Stone (Oct 24, 2002)

> Striking & Grappling Together is The Way to go



You bet.  And traditional systems that have not gone the way of the mini-mall McDojo contain both...

That is the whole point of contention between traditionalists (from real schools) and MMAists...  The MMAists think traditional = crap mini-mall instruction.

We do LOTS of grappling stuff in my style.  We don't roll on the ground with him, however.  We hit him, throw him, hit him some more, apply joint locks to keep him in pain, then hit him more.

Gambarimasu.


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## 7starmantis (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *Strikers friends go to stomp
> Grapplers friends takes Strikers Friends
> ...



Ace where are you from? Are you from the States ?


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## ace (Oct 24, 2002)

><><><


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## ace (Oct 24, 2002)

I live In N.Y.
Yes this is in the States

I was born in the states

Im 1/2 Puerto Rican,German,Irish & Native American

I have Hazel eyes, Brown Hair


My intrest are MMA fighting ,Weight lifting,Wrestling

Arnis De Mano,Submisson Grappling, KickBoxing


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## 7starmantis (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *I live In N.Y.
> Yes this is in the States
> ...



Um, wow, thanks for the rundown, but I'm married allready, sorry.

7sm


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## ace (Oct 24, 2002)

I have a Beautiful Wife
She toatly cool
She's a Texas flower


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## 7starmantis (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *I have a Beautiful Wife
> She toatly cool
> She's a Texas flower *



Yeah it was a little jokey joke there, but thats cool


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## JDenz (Oct 24, 2002)

I think that people are underestimating the MMa fighters.  I don't think any MMA stylests say traditional arts are crap.  I think that is a great thing about MMA.  They have to take things from every art to be succesful it is JKD really.  It is slanted a little towards grappling, but I think the slant is going back to the stand up arts right now.  Everything has weaknesses.  If it didn't Bruce Lee would not have been cool, Everyone would still be doing Judo and Kung Fu would never have become the flavor of the decade late 60's- mid seventies.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *   I think that people are underestimating the MMa fighters. *



I don't. I think MMA people over estimate  and believe themselves to be on the same level as the UFC & PRIDE fighters.........which most are not.




> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *  I don't think any MMA stylests say traditional arts are crap.*



Really? From the Forums I have seen that's ALL they seem to say.




> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *  Everything has weaknesses.*



I disagree. People have weaknesses...........arts do not. If someone can't make and art work that is their fault not the arts.
Example: Itosu went against an armed swordsman and won. Being unarmed is only a disadvantage if you think it is.........keeping your wits about you and finding their weakness is what it's about. People that say this art or that art has a weakness are just making excuses for their own lack of skill. Anyone that has seriously studied Sun Tzu's "Art of War" (required reading at all of the Military Academies....so I am told) will know what I am talking about.

*"To know one thing well is to know ten thousand"*
_Miyamoto Musashi_




> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *  If it didn't Bruce Lee would not have been cool,*



If you have ever read any of the personal accounts by Lee's friends they all say pretty much the same thing.......Lee was a "winner". He worked his *** off on everyhing he set his mind to. True he did study other arts but the only place he used those arts was on the screen. He was even asked if it came down to a real fight would he use the stuff he does in his movies and he said "No".


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## ace (Oct 24, 2002)

I belive What Bruce said was
When it Comes to fighting
Baby U beter Use your whole body

Also he set The fight seens in Game of Deth to show his way.

He stoped working on it
When he got the ofer to do Enter the dragon.

Lee even got into a fight on the side lines
Guess What 
He choked the guy out
Go Bruce.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Which time was this?


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## ace (Oct 24, 2002)

during the filming of enter the dragon
I also love the opeaning seen in enter the Dragon.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *during the filming of enter the dragon
> *




From the accounts I read one of the stuntmen got "upitty" with Bruce and Bruce "punched" him out....(not choked).......and if I recall it was with a single punch.


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## ace (Oct 24, 2002)

Maybe they both happend

But the one i herd was the Choke out
ill go thru my books & Mags Find the material &
Post Back To ya.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *Maybe they both happend
> 
> ...




Dont bother......it doesn't make any difference to me.


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## JDenz (Oct 24, 2002)

Lol only matters when the facts help you lol.  I am saying that MMA's are underestimited most come from strong backgrounds in TKD, Karate, and a few Kung Fu guys.  
     Bruce was into everything.  If you think he only used KF you are mistaken.  He trained with every, boxers, judo jean, Chuck Norris.   Read his books sometime if you are seriously interested, read Linda's writtings about Bruce.  He took what worked from everything and made it fit him.  Tradition is good but things are alot diffrent then they were back in the day.  Styles developed because of the conditions around them and that is what I think MMA comes from.  I mean at no other time in the world's history could you find video lessons on everyone's art?  Found out information on a style, patterns kata's in less then a 5 mintues with a good conection.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *Lol only matters when the facts help you lol. *



Help me in what way?
I asked which instance he was talking about, since I have heard of several, and I merely related that I had heard a different story.


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## KennethKu (Oct 25, 2002)

Mr. Rousselot , Mr Stone, and 7SM ,

Your views and comments are very much appreciated and duely noted for reference. 

You all have dedicated many years of training and are experts in your MA, and I have deep respect for that.


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## Kirk (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *Lol only matters when the facts help you lol.  I am saying that MMA's are underestimited most come from strong backgrounds in TKD, Karate, and a few Kung Fu guys.
> Bruce was into everything.  If you think he only used KF you are mistaken.  He trained with every, boxers, judo jean, Chuck Norris.   Read his books sometime if you are seriously interested, read Linda's writtings about Bruce.  He took what worked from everything and made it fit him.  Tradition is good but things are alot diffrent then they were back in the day.  Styles developed because of the conditions around them and that is what I think MMA comes from.  I mean at no other time in the world's history could you find video lessons on everyone's art?  Found out information on a style, patterns kata's in less then a 5 mintues with a good conection. *



Bruce didn't even bother to wait till he mastered his wing chun
training.  He put himself in top physical condition, that was a 
huge goal of his, so again, he trained hard, which could be
the reason for his win/loss record.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 25, 2002)

OK, here is a hypothetical question for ya..........

Let's say Bruce is here today in his prime he enters a UFC or Pride or K-1 fight against let's say one of the following ......Bob Sapp, Peter Aerts, Sakuraba, Gracie..............

I for one think Bruce would get the crap kicked out of him.


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## LeeKrol (Oct 25, 2002)

My personal opinion is that Bruce went to Brazil back in his day and threw down with the best guys over there he would have had some trouble.  

As for today, I believe that is a somewhat impossible question to answer.  Bruce would have learned all he could have about the ground, all he could have about Muay Thai, and wrestling.  The competitors nowadays train in everything.  The amount of information that can be acquired in today's world is far greater than the amount back in Bruce's heyday.  You didn't see nearly the full cross-training of styles that we see today, you didn't have nearly the knowledge of human physiology and dietary supplements that we have today.  I'm not saying that every competitor is scientifically engineered by Muscle-Tech but their training regimes are far more advanced.  If Bruce had the all of these tools available to him, I can bet he would have been training with the Brazilian Top Team, or Chute Boxe, or Hammer House.  To just pull him out of his time and throw him into the ring with today's best would result in a slaughter in my humble opinion.

But honestly, if he was in his prime with the tools that today's athletes have, I bet he would be effective.  Just my opinion.


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## LeeKrol (Oct 25, 2002)

I think everyone here should agree that crosstraining is critical.  Let's face it, all of the professional fighters crosstrain.  They have to.  

Every martial artist understands that styles have inheret weaknesses.  A pure grappler could be in a lot of trouble against a really good striker.  A pure striker could be in a would of trouble against a good grappler.  Even the purest, most traditional martial artists have to concede that you must train for all situations, or you are not complete.

What if a striker got tackled from behind or the side and was on the ground before he got a chance to strike?  What if a grappler (and his friends) are outnumbered?  It would be silly for two or three grapplers to try and take down three or four guys, so they must know some striking to protect themselves.  It would be difficult for a striker to escape even a freshman collegiate wrestler on the ground, so they must know some groundwork to at least get back to their feet.

Do grapplers and MMA guys think they are better than everyone else?  I don't believe so, I believe that they feel they are more complete for real situations that more traditional styles.  And they believe they prove it in the UFC, Pride, KOTC, etc..  To be honest, I think they do prove it.  People say that the UFC, Pride, etc. are not street fights and that is true, but they're probably as close as you can come without pitfighting.  I don't think anyone really believes that if you saw Vitor Belfort walking down the street that he would be vulnerable because he's "out of his element".  Think that's crazy?  That's the argument I hear though.  "They need the cage to win", "They have rules in the ring so it isn't the same...".  Whatever.  They train to fight, and their arena is the televised competition.

Bottom line : Crosstrain.  Crosstrain.  Crosstrain.  Don't sell yourself short by thinking you're never going to get taken down.  Don't sell your students short by telling them if they train hard in their art no one will take them down and out of their element.  Don't sell yourself short by thinking you're never going to have to throw hands, or you're never going to run into a guy you can't take down.  Grapplers don't like to get punched in the face, so they train their stand-up game.  Strikers don't like to be choked and armlocked, so they should train their ground game.  Anyone who doesn't believe in crosstraining will fall victim to someone who does.


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## Master of Blades (Oct 25, 2002)

I disagree. Professionals Cross train because they need to win and they fight against many diverce styles for money. they need to be aware to win. Most normal people just need to learn one style and once you get good in that you should be able to deal with an attacker anyway. Just my thoughts...:asian:


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## Kirk (Oct 25, 2002)

*
UFC rules, as approved by the 
Nevada State Athletic Commission *

*Weight classes:  *
1. Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs. 
2. Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs. 
3. Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs. 
4. Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs. 
5. Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs. 


*Bout duration:  *
1. All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds. 
2. All championship bouts shall be five rounds. 
3. Rounds will be five minutes in duration, with a one minute. 
4. A one-minute rest period will occur between each round. 


*Fouls:  *
1.  Butting with the head. 
2.  Eye gouging of any kind. 
3.  Biting. 
4.  Hair pulling. 
5.  Fish hooking. 
6.  Groin attacks of any kind. 
7.  Putting a finger into any orifice or into any
    cut or laceration on an opponent. 
8.  Small joint manipulation. 
9.  Striking to the spine or the back of the head. 
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. 
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. 
13. Grabbing the clavicle. 
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. 
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. 
16. Stomping a grounded opponent. 
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. 
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area. 
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. 
21. Spitting at an opponent. 
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. 
23. Holding the ropes or the fence. 
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area. 
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break. 
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee. 
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat. 
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee. 
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury. 
30. Interference by the corner. 
31. Throwing in the towel during competition. 


*Ways To Win:  *
Submission by: 
1. Physical tap out. 
2. Verbal tap out. 
3. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest. 
4. Decision via the scorecards, including: 
   - Unanimous decision. 
   - Split decision. 
   - Majority decision. 
   Draw, including: 
   - Unanimous draw. 
   - Majority draw. 
   - Split draw. 
5. Technical decision. 
6. Technical draw. 
7. Disqualification. 
8. Forfeit. 
9. No contest. 


*Referee may Restart the round: *
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work
to improve position or finish.


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## Kirk (Oct 25, 2002)

So many rules.  [facetious]  Just out of curiosity, of the rules
listed .. which ones are also rules in a street fight? [/facetious]


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## LeeKrol (Oct 25, 2002)

Alright, here are the rules for an upcoming traditional sport karate tournament.



KRANE Nationals 2002 - AAAAA (Plus) Sunday November 17, 2002 Johnson & Wales Inn Seekonk, Mass

Legal Target Areas:    Entire head and face, ribs, chest, abdomen and kidneys.

Illegal Target Areas:    Spine, back of neck, throat, sides of neck, groin, legs, knees and back are all illegal target areas.  Any attacks to these areas could result in a warning and/or penalty points.

Non-Target Areas:  Hips, shoulders, buttocks, arms, and feet are all non-target areas.  Points cannot be scored to non-target area.  If it is deemed that a competitor is actually attacking these areas, warning and/or penalty point may be awarded.

Legal Techniques:    Legal techniques are all controlled sport karate techniques, except those listed as illegal.  When determining the legality of a technique, the official considers if the technique is a legitimate, controlled sport karate technique that adheres to all other rules governing sport point karate.

Illegal Techniques:     Head butts, hair pulls, bites, scratches, elbows, knees, eye attacks of any kind, take downs on hard surface floors, ground fighting on hard surface floors, any stomps or kicks to the head of a downed opponent, slapping, grabbing for more than one second, uncontrolled blind techniques, any uncontrolled dangerous techniques that are deemed unsafe in sport karate.  (For more information on legal and illegal techniques, see "Judging" section.)

Sweeps, Takedowns, Grabs, and Ground Fighting:  Sweeps not to take down an opponent, but only to obstruct the balance can only be executed to the back of the front leg at mid-calf or below.  These described sweeps are legal on all types of fighting surfaces if the sweep is only to force the opponent off balance so as to execute a technique to an upright opponent.  If the sweep is considered to have knocked down the opponent, then it would be illegal except on a padded surface.  It is important to note that sweeps do not make it legal to kick the legs.  A sweep must be deemed  proper sweep and not a kick, to be legal.

A competitor may grab the uniform top of his/her opponent in an attempt to score.  He/she may grip the uniform top for one second, after which time he/she must release the uniform.  Likewise, the uniform pants may be grabbed.  A kick may be trapped or grabbed for one second for purposes of executing a counterattack to an upright opponent.

Deliberately dropping to the floor to avoid or evade fighting is not legal.  All dropping to the floor deliberately on a hard surface is not legal.  A fighter is down when any part of the body, other than the feet is touching the floor.




Just my opinion, but it seems like there is more rules here in a sport karate tournament than a UFC/Pride type match.  Who would be better geared for the street?  Can anyone not living in a fantasy world please tell me?


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## Bod (Oct 25, 2002)

I can't believe they don't allow hair grabs or pinches.

I reckon the hair grab thing is to allow personalities develop - i.e. stop everybody from having to shave their head.


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## JDenz (Oct 25, 2002)

Check out the rules for the first couple UFC back when it was stlye versus style and not cross training.  No biting, no eye gouging, 5 minutes rounds.  that was it. everything else was legal until UFC 7 when they added no fishhooking, no vitial point striking, then when Congress got on there butt they added the rules to make it a sport.  That is what it is a sport.  We all know that, no doubt in anyone's mind. 
     Guys and Gals that train MMA style are not all grapplers.  Alot are strikers that want to be able to defend themselves on the ground.  Guys like GIlbert Yvel, Mo Smith, spent years in stand up arts, Kimo did TKD, Goodridge TSD, Jay Delucia KF.  They all learned to fight in every range on the ground on the feet.  MMA people train there body to fight, weather it is a sport fight or a fight in the street they are trained to take shots dish out shots and play a ground game.


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## kenposcum (Oct 25, 2002)

If Bruce got into a fight with anybody he would've pulled out his .45 "And bang!  Settle[d] it."
I seem to remember him saying that would be his technique of choice if someone broke into his house.
:asian:


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## ace (Oct 25, 2002)

If Bruce Were alive today he would be on the Level.

Before he died he was traning With Judo Gene & Wally Jay

Early UFC had less Rules
Pride has less rules
Wvc has less rules then them.


_____________________________

In the street there are no rules 

So A body Slam on a fire hydren is legal
______________________________


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## Master of Blades (Oct 25, 2002)

If you guys are saying that if Bruce came back today that he would  get his *** wooped...the your probably right. he has been dead for howver long. But If he hadnt died then I reckon he would still be one of the worlds greatest because he would have adapted nowdays.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> UFC rules, as approved by the
> ...





Seems like a lot of rules for something that is supposedly "no holds barred"


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 25, 2002)

> 7. Putting a finger into any orifice...


Is this -really- a problem?

:rofl:


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## Damian Mavis (Oct 25, 2002)

Don't reveal my secret technique!!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 25, 2002)

> 24. Using abusive language



Oh my...save us.....:rofl: 



> 20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.


So, I guess the spinning wedgie is out huh?  



> 21. Spitting at an opponent.


 Damn...there goes my famoud "cobra" move....oh wait, I swore....I hate being DQed in a NHB fight....




> 22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.


You mean I can't bring a chair in a nail them in the head 26 times?  I thought the name was "No Holds Barred"...not "You can do everything Except all these moves".


I'm holding out for true gladitorial games..... 
:duel:


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## ace (Oct 25, 2002)

Im ready sounds great><><><
:bomb: :EG: :bomb: 
:cheers: :cheers:


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Fouls:
> 1.  Butting with the head.
> ...



In a REAL fight wouldn't people be doing one or more of the above mentioned????


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## Cthulhu (Oct 25, 2002)

I remember way back when the UFC had no weight classes, no rounds, and limited rules regarding padding (gloves, shoes, etc.).

And it still sucked.

I'm sorry, but two sweaty guys (often overweight) rolling around on the ground for 45 minutes was not pretty to watch.

I don't doubt that most of these fighters have some skill, train hard, and could probably put a mean hurting on me in a real fight, but don't say the UFC is realistic fighting.  If it has rules of any kind, then it's a _game_...an incredibly violent and bloody game, yes, but a game nonetheless.  In a real fight, you don't roll around with a fella for several minutes, waiting for his buddies to do all sorts of unmentionable things to you while your limbs are tied up.

Hell, these days, you're lucky if your opponent doesn't whip out a gun and put a .45 caliber channel through your frontal lobe.


Cthulhu


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *
> Hell, these days, you're lucky if your opponent doesn't whip out a gun and put a .45 caliber channel through your frontal lobe.
> ...




Either that or a few 9mm from his MAC 10 and from 20 yards away no less as he drives by.


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## ace (Oct 25, 2002)

I would love to see it


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## Angus (Oct 25, 2002)

Uh, see what?

LeeKrol, at least compare apples to apples. Find a NHB Karate tournament (or at least full-contact knockout, and yes they DO exist) and compare it's rules to UFC. They're pretty similiar.


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## sammy3170 (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LeeKrol _
> 
> *Alright, for those of you who didn't catch it, TLC had an hour long show called "Top 10 Ultimate Martial Arts".  Here is the arts they listed as the Top 10, in order :
> 
> ...




I say who gives a fat rats clacker. If you enjoy what you do, good, keep doing it.  This really is BS.

Cheers
Sammy


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## ace (Oct 26, 2002)

><><><
ACE


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## Master of Blades (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *I would love to see it *



You give me a couple of years to train and wait for me to load my gun and Ill get in the ring with anyone.


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## ace (Oct 26, 2002)

Guns cause fear
fear causes hesitation
hesitation will cause
the worst fears to 
come true.


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## The 14th Style (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sammy3170 _
> 
> *I say who gives a fat rats clacker. If you enjoy what you do, good, keep doing it.  This really is BS.
> 
> ...



I really agree with you.Take  the TLC list for what it was. Just a list. Nobody really takes those sort of lists seriously, do they?  
I love Eskrima and wouldn't want to do anything else, but that's just me. Do I think my art is better than anybody else's? No, and I love to hear about, and watch other people practice what they do. Study the art you like. learn and grow.
                           The 14th style


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## bob919 (Oct 26, 2002)

if bruce was alive today he would get his *** kicked by todays UFC fighters cause he would be like 62


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## Master of Blades (Oct 26, 2002)

I never thought of that...its so true.....


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## Kenpo Wolf (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *Guns cause fear
> fear causes hesitation
> ...



I think this is the only thing you ever said here that I agree with and no spelling mistakes. Congradulations


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf _
> 
> *I think this is the only thing you ever said here that I agree with and no spelling mistakes. Congradulations *



C-O-N-G-R-A-*T*-U-L-A-T-I-O-N-S

Cthulhu


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## D.Cobb (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> * No More Mr. Nice Guy!! :bomb: :EG: :bomb: *



Oh for crying out loud, why don't you do what you said and go away.

Remember, bye bye?

--Dave


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## ace (Oct 27, 2002)

><><><


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## MartialArtist (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *There was alot of Gung Fu & Karate
> But that went away Quick.
> ...


Uhhhh...

How about the UFC fighters who don't fight in other sets of rules?  Such as Royce not accepting fights unless the *rules* of his liking are there.  It's the same with almost every MMA match-up.  You can't have a battle of styles.  Some people try it by letting boxers only punch and can't do anything else, or wrestlers just grappling.  Doesn't work.  Others make it free-for-all _with rules_ that do go against one or more strategies.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> 
> *I don't mind.
> 
> ...


It's easy to tell who they are.

They say, "Just watch the UFC" and go on and on about how great someone like the Gracies are.  Yeah, they are great.  But the greatest Gracie IMO in wisdom AND in fighting skills is Rickson.  And he's one of the few who respect all other arts equally.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *I also have studied Arnis, Jkd/ Mauy Thai
> 
> ...


The notion is that you are still inexperienced.  You must have mastered every art above, right?

It takes a lifetime to master one art.  And guessing you never took boxing or wrestling or anything like that other than a couple of years, you aren't knowledgeable enough to make conclusions.  You been to a seminar.  Great.  You never trained in it?  So what, that proves nothing.

All you proved was how you like MMA

You've done those arts.  Have you studied them long enough to be good at it is another question.

That reminds me of the hundreds of boxers, wrestlers, and MMA people who come to the club.  A few beginner boxers have trouble skipping rope.  They say, "boxing sucks."  Of those who stay, 30-70% quit on the first week of hitting.  They get hit and don't like it.

Same with wrestling, they lose their first few matches and want to quit.  Or the training is too hard.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *First of all any surface that slows down a striker ie: mats is going to slow down a a grappler as well.   What is the most dangerous time for a grappler?  Closing to the clinch,  If you think slow footing helps a grappler it doesn't, it actually makes it harder to take a good striker down.  The only arguement that works about UFC being weighted towards grapplers is the cage.   But so what fight in a ring then.   I don't hear boxers or kickboxers or MT guys say fighting in a ring takes away there striking.
> No offense to anyone but you are the guys that are resorting to personal attacks, I havent attacked anyone and Primo was commenting on a diffrent thread wth regards to kirk.
> ...


Difference is that the mat can even sometimes determine the winner.  I will bring up a thing I saw.  Royce Gracie was picked up by a guy high in the air.  Gracie does a spin move with his momentum, lands on his head and neck.  Gets in position to lock him up.

On the street, what will happen if he used the same move?


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *Are you saying that the Mantis system has no weakness? *


Each system in its entireity really has weaknesses.  It may be missing an aspect but the trade-off is that you focus more on the things that are there.  Although you need a base knowledge in ALL aspects, it is not asked of you to be a master in every aspect because that is impossible.  Rather, focus on your strengths and weaknesses.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> 
> *actually every art has a weakness i am not gonna bore you by listing them
> 
> you say that people don't stick with a single art long enough that my be true but moving to a differnt art after a couple of years is advantageous because it can help fill the holes in your training *


How would you know the holes really?

Extensive grappling may not be taught until 10 years.

The problem is that you don't know the art.  A bigger problem is that McDojos leave more holes so people have a conception that the art has holes which in fact, it's the school.

A couple of years isn't nearly enough.  A couple years may be enough to go from newbie to beginner or beginner to intermediate.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *Basically yes, what I'm saying is the weakness in training that so many people feel the need to fill by "crosstraining" is a weakness in the individual, not the system they are training in. Don't get me wrong, there are people who cross train for very specific reasons, but the people who say they are cross training to get well rounded, and learn striking from this art and kicks from this art, they are only feeding their weakness I believe. If you stick to one or a few systems that are very closely related, you will see your own inherant weaknesses and you can pinpoint them and train out those weaknesses. Its just my opinion but what I ask people most when they say a system didn't work for them is, " It didn't work for you, or you didn't work for it"?.
> 
> 7sm *


Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *I think that people are underestimating the MMa fighters.  I don't think any MMA stylests say traditional arts are crap.  I think that is a great thing about MMA.  They have to take things from every art to be succesful it is JKD really.  It is slanted a little towards grappling, but I think the slant is going back to the stand up arts right now.  Everything has weaknesses.  If it didn't Bruce Lee would not have been cool, Everyone would still be doing Judo and Kung Fu would never have become the flavor of the decade late 60's- mid seventies. *


Yeah, most professional level people don't say traditional MA's are crap.  But many novices do.  And some people like Royce.

I disagree for slanted toward grappling.  In the UFC, yes, because strikers are greatly limited.  Of the hundreds of fights I've witnessed hundreds of fights while I stayed out of most of them.  And yes, in the military in the 60's-today, they still do fight.  Most of the time with both trained and untrained is that you hit until they go to the ground and you hit them on the ground.  Unless there was a huge opening, they wouldn't bring them down.

But I would also witness changes in patterns.  On wet grass, the people would wrestle.  On hard ground, they would strike.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *Lol only matters when the facts help you lol.  I am saying that MMA's are underestimited most come from strong backgrounds in TKD, Karate, and a few Kung Fu guys.
> Bruce was into everything.  If you think he only used KF you are mistaken.  He trained with every, boxers, judo jean, Chuck Norris.   Read his books sometime if you are seriously interested, read Linda's writtings about Bruce.  He took what worked from everything and made it fit him.  Tradition is good but things are alot diffrent then they were back in the day.  Styles developed because of the conditions around them and that is what I think MMA comes from.  I mean at no other time in the world's history could you find video lessons on everyone's art?  Found out information on a style, patterns kata's in less then a 5 mintues with a good conection. *


Bruce said...

The art is as good as the person.  He also said that if you are excellent in one area and weak in another area, you are still a perfect fighter.  May not be the most rounded, but perfect.  If you are the greatest striker in the world, you would rarely grapple and at most, would only need to know the basics.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Bruce didn't even bother to wait till he mastered his wing chun
> training.  He put himself in top physical condition, that was a
> ...


Exactly.

Bruce didn't even even master wing chun.  He was very good at it, but missed out on a lot of techniques such as the real one-inch punch.  Yeah, he had it, but it was different from the way it was done in Hong Kong.  For me, the one Bruce developed was a bit weaker but chances using the one-inch punch = 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LeeKrol _
> 
> *My personal opinion is that Bruce went to Brazil back in his day and threw down with the best guys over there he would have had some trouble.
> 
> ...


That is just as effective as learning one part extensively and using the others for supplements.

If you use a number system of 1-10, a UFC fighter would be...

Grappling 4
Wrestling 3
Striking 2

which is just as effective in self-defense situations as

Grappling 2
Wrestling 2
Striking 6

or

grappling 5
wrrestling 3
striking 2

As you know the basic principles of every aspect, youc an be great.  If you know the aspects of how to get out of a wrestling lock such as control the hips, control the hands, control distance...  Then the most will come naturally and will be like instinct.  You need to practice it, but you don't need a set of a hundred techniques.  It's great to have a few that you feel comfortable with, but if you know the concepts, then you practically have hundreds of moves you can use without knowing it.  You won't need to learn the back-to-front, the back-up-kneel move, and the hundreds of other variations.


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

Bruce Lee would be an old man and wouldn't have the ability to take on younger fighters.  Although there were many old men, over 70 who were undefeated and people in their 20's and 30's couldn't even touch them.


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## ace (Oct 28, 2002)

Your a Joke 
A bad one god played on the rest of us.


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## Master of Blades (Oct 28, 2002)

MartialArtist.........although I agree with most of what you say......was there any need to do THAT MANY POSTS! :rofl: :shrug: :asian: 

and Ace.......learn to respect other peoples opinions


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## Kenpo Wolf (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *MartialArtist.........although I agree with most of what you say......was there any need to do THAT MANY POSTS! :rofl: :shrug: :asian:
> *



I think that he has the same problem I have and that being we dont know how to quote multiple quotes in one place. Speaking for myself as well, not all of us are computer literate


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## 7starmantis (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *Your a Joke
> A bad one god played on the rest of us. *



Hey man, thats really not cool, as MAist we should be working to respect everyone regardless of their beliefs or opinions, that goes for everyone on these boards, me included, but lets keep it respectful please.


7sm


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *Your a Joke
> A bad one god played on the rest of us. *


All right.  We'll leave you with your ultimate fighting training.  Only your experience will tell.  You may think of grappling most of the time or striking most of the time but that's not the way it goes.

Here is a site someone posted

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/martialarts.html#reality_based_selfdefense


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## MartialArtist (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf _
> 
> *I think that he has the same problem I have and that being we dont know how to quote multiple quotes in one place. Speaking for myself as well, not all of us are computer literate *


I know how to quote, it is that I take one statement at a time.  Sorry if it was a nuisance.


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *I know how to quote, it is that I take one statement at a time.  Sorry if it was a nuisance. *



It's not a nuisance, it actually makes your posts easier to read and understand for ignorant people like myself.


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## Kenpo Wolf (Oct 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *I know how to quote, it is that I take one statement at a time.  Sorry if it was a nuisance. *



I was'nt calling you a nuisance, MA, as taking one statement at a time makes a lot of sense to me.


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## D.Cobb (Oct 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *I know how to quote, it is that I take one statement at a time.  Sorry if it was a nuisance. *



Well I for one, prefer it done, one quote at a time. If it was one big post, I would have skipped half of it, but because it was a whole bunch of little posts, I got to read it all.

Oh yeah, you handle disrespect well. Well done!

--Dave

:asian:


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## Kirk (Oct 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> 
> *Oh yeah, you handle disrespect well. Well done!*



And you point out disrespect well!  Well done to you sir!:asian:


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