# similarities Karate/Tae kwon Do



## Manny (Oct 5, 2010)

Silly question but nice  to start a topic. For you what are the similtaries beetwen Karate Do and Tae Kwon Do. If you want to be specific beetwen Shotokan and KUKIWON/WTF?

I've been reading here in this forum TKD evolved from Shotokan Karate, this is something I don't believe but I am not a guru in this.

Manny


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## terryl965 (Oct 5, 2010)

Manny just as a tidbit do you want the similarities between Shotokan and KKW or the WTF. Remember the WTF just governs the rule set for the sportside of TKD and the KKW has the set of curriculum and certification part.

I will just say this between them it is not much but before they really made alot of chnges over the last thirty years it was so familair just look at Jhoon Rhree system, it is solely based on Shotokan, ducks because so many will dis-agree but that is OK.

I would like to say that ITF original had more in common than WTF/KKW does.


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## chrispillertkd (Oct 5, 2010)

All of the early Kwan founders were quite open about having studied karate while in Japan. Most studied Shotokan, such as Gen. Choi of the Oh Do Kwan; Grand Master Lee, Won Kuk of the Chung Do Kwan; Grand Master Rho, Byung Jik of the Song Moo Kwan; Grand Master Chun, Sang Sup of the Yun Moo Kwan/Ji Do Kwan. Some of them also studied Shudokan karate (which was developed by Kanken Toyama) such as Yoon, Byung In of the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu/Chang Moo Kwan and Yon, Kwi Byung of the Ji Do Kwan.

Given this, I certainly don't see any reason to doubt that Taekwon-Do had a lot of influence on its development from karate. Now, I will say that Gen. Choi especially, but also other Kwan heads, were adamant about developing what they knew into a particularly _Korean_ martial art. You can still see karate influenes in ITF Taekwon-Do mostly in technique sequences in the patterns. In WTF the influence seems to be mostly in body mechanics (the crossing of the arms for blocks, the manner the body weight is shifted to gain power, etc.) and in technique sequences in the older pattern sets (the Palgues, but also for a while most of the Kwans just taught a Koreanized version of the Pinan katas).

That all being said, I'd point out that both Kukkiwon and ITF Taekwon-Do have developed quite a bit and while you can still see the influences of karate in some of what they do they are their own animals at this point.

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Oct 5, 2010)

Manny said:


> I've been reading here in this forum TKD evolved from Shotokan Karate, this is something I don't believe but I am not a guru in this.



Chris summed it up quite well.  But it would be interesting to understand why you don't believe Shotokan and Shudokan karate were an antecedent component of tae kwon do.  The historical record on that is rather clear and unambiguous.



Manny said:


> For you what are the similtaries beetwen Karate Do and Tae Kwon Do. If you want to be specific beetwen Shotokan and KUKIWON/WTF?



I actually think KKW has diverged the farthest from Shotokan karate, given the changes in technique meant to emphasize speed.  The TKD groups that are closest in technique to Shotokan are probably those going by the "Moo Duk Kwan tae kwon do".  Where I live, there's a significant amount of schools that are from this lineage - they still perform the Pyung Ahn forms hard style and they are not affected by Hwang Kee's later attempts to make tang soo do/Soo Bakh Do more 'Korean' or wushu-like.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 5, 2010)

You have to start by studying your history. 

For almost 50 years Japan ruled Korea. Following thier standards they abused the pouplation, debased all korean practices, forbid the study of korean martial arts, etc. Japanese Judo became Korean Yudo, and those that had the chance got to study the art of thier conquerors which was Shotokan.

Funakoshi took his teachings into the Japanese universities starting in the 20's, and those young men became military officers and civil administrators in Korean and Manchuko (renamed Manchuria). Some of them absorbed local teachings and brought them back to Japan. In turn that was all the Korean's pre WWII had exposure to and after the war started building new martial a traditions.  Choi brought as many under the TKD lable as possible. His first book contained his new TKD forms as well as the Shotokan forms. Kee didn't join the TKD and kept to his shotokan studies. 

In time korean changes occured in all of the arts, new forms, new kicking traditions (or old ones depending).

Also Daito Ryu was the source for some Hapkido development.

But the Korean's can not acknowldge the Japanese nor should they ever. What Japan did to their country, culture, existence should never be fogotten by the Koreans. That some of their traditions came from the Japanese, well put it this way, during the Korean Olympics a Japanese TKD was competing.  TV interviewed a Japnaese man watching from the stands, and correctly reading the crowd told the TV< I really hope the Koreans win else I won't get out of here alive!> PS. the Korean's beat the Japanese.

The smartest thing is to respect Korea, forget the issue of origins which is long gone in any case, and just practice in the now. 

There is no win in this.


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## dancingalone (Oct 5, 2010)

Victor Smith said:


> The smartest thing is to respect Korea, forget the issue of origins which is long gone in any case, and just practice in the now.
> 
> There is no win in this.



I generally agree with you, Victor, but not on this one.  TKD was my first art and I still remember being fed the TKD is 2000 years old replete with the Hwarangdo creation myth.  I don't support untruthful propaganda, even if it is understandable why it arose in the first place.  So while there is no reason to seek out Korean stylists to whack them over the head with the karate link, I think it is fine for TKD people to be curious about the origins of their art, and forums like MT are useful as first places of contact that might lead them to more academic research made by people like Dakin Burdick.  

Burdick's article about TKD history is available at http://www.budosportcapelle.nl/gesch.html with a full bibliography for anyone who is interested in reading further.


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## Manny (Oct 5, 2010)

The way our tkd masters taught us is TKD is a Korean Martial Art that has more the 2000 years of existence. In my younger days sambonim told us TKD came from tang Soo Do and Soo Back Do.

Then recently I start to see some articles from internet and it seems that TKD was an evolution of some MA like the shotokan.

For me TKD and Karate Do ShotoKan have some similarietis, TKD evolved into a kicking art.however seein videos from 1950 I see the TKD practice was karate alike.

Now in this years there is complete diference amoung WTF TKD and Karate Do Shotokan, but I think in the beginin of the birth of TKD have so much things that was from Shotokan.

Some times, because the way I teach I feel my TKD is the old school, I don't focus on kicks only (like the WTF) I do the taeguks poomsae yes, but I like to use equally hands and feet, and this makes me feel special if you like.


My TKD is not as fast as WTF but is strong (in some way like Karate), I put atention to the stances,blocks,parries,punches,elbows,hand techs and kicks too trying not to be so fancy here cause I like how a good trust front kick is or how a poweful side kick can be used to keep bad guys at bay and because my body does not allow me to do that flashy tricky kicks anymore.

So basically, in some ways I feel I am doing more Karate than TKD just because my kick arsenal is not too wide.

Manny


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## rlp271 (Oct 5, 2010)

Japan definitely attempted cultural genocide in Korea, and I've heard it argued, can't remember the source, that if Japan had continued to rule Korea, they likely would have wiped out the language within a generation or two.  After you do that, there isn't a lot to keep a culture alive.  Especially when you look at the history of Korea leading up to Japanese colonization.

By the time the Japanese took over Korea, Korean fighting arts were already a thing of the past.  The fighting traditions of Korea were snuffed out by neo-Confucianism and Korean kings long before the Japanese got there.  The whole thing about the Japanese banning Korean martial arts specifically rings a little hollow to me.  They may have stopped Koreans from practicing martial arts period, but I doubt they would just ban Korean martial arts, since they weren't widespread enough at that point to be any real threat for a national uprising.  On another forum, someone said they heard that Taekkyon had already been banned by King Kojong in the late 1880s, because gangsters were using it to fight in the capital.  It would be hard to verify that, because the Japanese took over in the middle of his rule, and the records would be difficult to find.  If it were true however, then it shows even more the decline of fighting arts in Korea.

Such a ban would be pretty much unenforceable in some of the more mountainous parts of the country, especially the north (as in modern North Korea) and the central east coast.  There are towns on the east coast, like Sokcho, that were untouched by the Korean War in the 1950s, because they were so secluded.  I doubt the Japanese would have bothered enforcing such a ban way out there.  So, if Korean martial arts were that widespread, we'd still have them.

Korea did create a lot out of the occupation period though, and they should have been proud of that.  Instead, the government helped create the Hwarang myths, and they spread a lot of false history about while spreading Taekwondo.  It's a shame really, because the martial arts that came out of the occupation may have been Japanese influenced, but they took on some Korean influence as well, and were rich in and of themselves.  The revisionist history doesn't do anything for Korean martial arts, except make them less respected.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 5, 2010)

Hi Manny,

I think there are several important historical players.

First the raw historical occupation by the Japanese, the molestation of their women, daughters, mothers, etc., the cultural genocide, etc. and especially the latest news being uncovered, that Teddy Roosevelt virtually told the Japanese after the conclusion of the Japanese/Russian war to go ahead and take control of the rest in the region to keep things cool (my wording), and the world didn't stop Japan, it's always going to be hard for the Koreans to acknowledge Japan in a positive light. Follow the Korean news still trying to get acknowledgment and reparations for the women involved in the past.

Second Japan still does it's best to ignore everything as much as possible. Their martial movie Kuro Obi painted Manchiku as a peaceful place to live except for the dojo wars ignoring the Japanese Occupation of Manchuria was a brutal invasion and attempt to make it an arm of Japan, the cover up and rationalization continues to this day.

As for the link of TKD and TSDMDK to the Sillia warriors, I believe they are correct. Remember each founder was a survivor of the war of the Koreas. The were in the army (no choice of course) and fought to defend thier country just like those ancient warriors. No reason not to bind their arts to their historical past as they were rediscovering how to stand up on their own as a country, and having survived through blood they were modern ties to their ancient past, with great honnor. So they used that as their history.

Look we can't look at anything even 100 years ago and know exactly what was happening. The past is the Korean's business. Our art is in the present and that's all that truly matters. I for one respect the korean's for what they have done. Not my arts, but they survived through tougher circumstances than most of us will ever understand.

peace,


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## rlp271 (Oct 5, 2010)

My biggest issue with the revisionist history is that it's just simply not true.  Yes, those men were warriors, and yes they lived through the rape of their country, but they can't just make up history and write it off as fact.  They are going to get called on it 100% of the time.  As far as them having a link to the Shilla warriors, in heroism definitely.  They still can't link modern Korean martial arts to ancient ones though.  And some of the top, and oldest, Taekkyon people have raised doubts about the founders of the Kwans being trained in Taekkyon at all.  The fact is that Korea had an extremely rich post-occupation martial arts history coming together.  They should have cultivated it, and let it grow instead of just making things up.

Most nations take the sport or in this case martial art of the invader and make it their own.  A good modern example would be India and cricket.  A more extreme modern example, again the British, would be the Trobriand islander's version of cricket.  You can Google Trobriand cricket, they have a lot of videos on it.  They've taken cricket and added their own flavors to it.  It's still cricket, but it's their cricket.  That's what it seems Koreans did with Japanese martial arts.  They took ownership of them and changed them to make them distinctly Korean.

As far as the world turning a blind eye to what was going on in Korea, that was just unforgivable.  I've been to the House of Sharing in Gwangju, and I've seen the remaining 'comfort women' protesting out in front of the Japanese embassy.  They had their 900th protest earlier this year.  What they deal with even today is ridiculous, and the Korean government should support them more, but doesn't probably out of fear that it would hurt economic relationships with Japan.  The fact is that the West was pretty happy to just let Japan keep control of Korea post-WWII as a deterrent against the "Communist threat."  That still doesn't give the Korean government an excuse for re-writing history, but it makes it a whole lot easier to understand why it was done.

The issues with Japan not admitting to the Rape of Nanking in China or kidnapping women from Korea and other countries, governments have to deal with that.  The Chinese government has been pushing for it, and grassroots movements are going in Korea, but witnesses are dying off the longer this dispute drags on, and I think the Japanese are more than happy to just let that happen and hope it's forgotten.  Judging by my students' history books, that's not going to happen any time soon.  Which is as it should be.

Each country has to own up to its past.  It doesn't matter if you were the target of the atrocities, or the one committing them.


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## punisher73 (Oct 6, 2010)

It's not a new thing at all.  Okinawans changed the name of karate from meaning "Chinese Hand" to "Empty Hand" to help with the japanization of their art form.  Japan hated all things Chinese and so that link was removed.  It wasn't until more recently that it was admitted that karate developed from kung fu (China).

Mas Oyama, founder of one of Japan's most popular styles of karate (kyokushin) was Korean.  Mas changed his name from Yong I-Choi to the more Japanese sounding name of Masutatsu Oyama.  He moved to Japan when he was 15 where he started to study Shotokan under Funakoshi.  From things I have read, to this day, many japanese deny that he was Korean and insist he was Japanese.

No one is saying that survivors of the Japanese occupation of Korea should just forget what happened.  But, to lie about it and create other stories is just as bad.  Many people want to know the roots to better understand their art and also "why" the changes were made from the source.


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## Manny (Oct 6, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> Many people want to know the roots to better understand their art and also "why" the changes were made from the source.


 
You got me!

Manny


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 6, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Chris summed it up quite well.  But it would be interesting to understand why you don't believe Shotokan and Shudokan karate were an antecedent component of tae kwon do.  The historical record on that is rather clear and unambiguous.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually think KKW has diverged the farthest from Shotokan karate, given the changes in technique meant to emphasize speed.  The TKD groups that are closest in technique to Shotokan are probably those going by the "Moo Duk Kwan tae kwon do".  Where I live, there's a significant amount of schools that are from this lineage - they still perform the Pyung Ahn forms hard style and they are not affected by Hwang Kee's later attempts to make tang soo do/Soo Bakh Do more 'Korean' or wushu-like.



I practice Moo Duk Kwan TKD, and we practice the Shotokan Hyungs: Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi Hyungs, Chinto, Kang Song Kun.. . From my perspective we are quite similar to Shotokan Karate Do.  Granted we emphasize the high kicks, but at this point so do most Karate schools (they saw what worked, and adopted our kicks just as we adopted their techs).

I see no reason why I, as an American, cannot acknowledge TKD's lineage to Karate.  Not being Korean, not having that negative sentiment towards Japan/Okinawa, not having my family occupied and oppressed by Japan, I have no birds in that fight.. . BUT, that is why so many Koreans don't speak of the Japanese/Okinawan influences, and why some even deny it.


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## Gorilla (Oct 6, 2010)

I have been involved with TKD for nine years and Shotokan for about a month.  I think that they are like a puzzle piece they fit together quite well.  The strengths of Shotokan's punching and hand techniques are complemented by TKD strong kicking.


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## Gorilla (Nov 18, 2010)

It seems to me the more that I talk to Shotokan Practitioners they seem to have a ton of respect for skilled TKD people.


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## Manny (Nov 19, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> It seems to me the more that I talk to Shotokan Practitioners they seem to have a ton of respect for skilled TKD people.


 
I respect anyone from any martial art no matter japanese karate, or chinese kung fu or american kenpo karate. I think all MA have their strong and weak points and there is no single best of all (Martial Arts).

I really like karate, I really like aikido, I really like TKD, I don't like so much Kung Fu (Wu Shu) but I respect the people who do it, I don't like su much tha brazilian jujutsu however thera are out there good people that uses it efectively.

Gorilla there are some techs I have borrowed from Karate, one is the reverse punch and the sweeps,from aikido I have borrowed some moves to redirect energy and some wrist and arm bars, from judo I have borrowed a couple of trows (the easy ones).

I rember one time doing syrum wrestling in the dojang, I use some kind of judo, doing syrum in the kneeling position I use some aikido moves, even one time I use a tomoinage trow doing some hosisul.

I think that people like ourselves that try another MA are more open mind and with a better fighting arsenal that the average tkd or karate student.

Manny


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## Gorilla (Nov 23, 2010)

Manny,

My kids are really gaining allot from their Shotokan experience.  It is supported by their current trainer but not by their previous trainer.  They are punching much better now that they are cross training in Shotokan.  The punches are much harder and their use of distance when punching is much improved.  They are throwing more punches in their TKD sparring and it has enhanced their effectiveness(those reverse punches hurt).


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## Manny (Dec 2, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Manny,
> 
> My kids are really gaining allot from their Shotokan experience. It is supported by their current trainer but not by their previous trainer. They are punching much better now that they are cross training in Shotokan. The punches are much harder and their use of distance when punching is much improved. They are throwing more punches in their TKD sparring and it has enhanced their effectiveness(those reverse punches hurt).


 
Good for you and your kids! I think they going to benefit from this crosstraining too.

I crosstarined in Kenpo Karate and liket a lot, now the next year I want to crosstraing in anything else and I am thinking about: a) Japanese Karate, b) Budo Taijutsu and c) Judo or aikido.

My friend Daniel has a firsth dan in Karate Do and Budo taijutsu and he has invited me to join him in the budo taijutsu but I feel this too ninja but maybe the karate can be good.

Manny


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

Manny said:


> If you want to be specific beetwen Shotokan and KUKIWON/WTF?
> I've been reading here in this forum TKD evolved from Shotokan Karate, this is something I don't believe but I am not a guru in this.




Depends on how you define Shotokan and also Taekwondo. The most senior Shotokan student from Korea was GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan. GM Lee began his training while a student at Chuo University and continued his studies after graduation. GM Lee (who I interviewed at length both at his house and over the telephone) stated that his main teacher was not FUNAKOSHI Gichin, but rather his son, FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who GM Lee referred to as "Waka Sensei", or young sensei. GM Lee said he studied mostly with Waka Sensei during the night classes. Waka Sensei had a day job, just like GM Lee and so they worked in the day and trained at night.

GM Lee stated that Waka Sensei emphasized a very short narrow stance as well as economical arm movements. This is what he taught to his students during the 1940's. Waka Sensei died in 1945, and his work was taken over by junior students such as Nakayama Sensei of the JKA. GM Lee was senior to Nakayama Sensei in age and experience in Shotokan. 

GM Lee said that the longer wider stance was something that evolved out of the Japanese style sparring that was being developed in Japan, which was to make Karate into arts such as kendo and judo. He said that when they first started sparring (with five step, then three step and finally one step sparring), the students would step out wide so that they could connect squarely against their opponent or partner's torso, who were generally standing with a 45 degree angle to their body. In order to hit square, one would have to step at that 45 degree angle to make the T like connection with their opponent.

Modern Taekwondo competitors adopt the same stepping out motion, in what is known as "cover punch". 

He said that that stepping out wide was then incorporated into the kata. However, originally the stances were short and narrow, with your joints aligned. 

Shotokan went in this direction during the 1950's, and because of the many exchanges Korea had with Japan during the time, Taekwondo stances also became longer and wider. The problem in Taekwondo came because many of the senior practitioners started Taekwondo during this time frame, and so they adopted the wider stances, and continue to use that wide stance. 

In 1967, GM LEE Won Kuk returned to Korea and gave a series of seminars to reeducate the students into adopting the shorter narrow stances that was originally taught at the Shotokan. These were adopted into the Kukkiwon poomsae that we have today.

So even though the Kukkiwon forms have been rearranged into the Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae, the movements themselves, including but not limited to the short narrow stances and compact arm movements, is closer to the original shotokan than the shotokan of today.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I would like to say that ITF original had more in common than WTF/KKW does.




I don't know what you mean when you say ITF original, but I will say that the ITF style is closer to Shotokan of today, with its wider stances, while the Kukkiwon style is closer to the original pre WWII Shotokan. You can see pre WWII shotokan in FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei's books which have been reprinted. The book Toudejutsu is one place you might start if you wanted to do a serious study.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Now, I will say that Gen. Choi especially, but also other Kwan heads




General Choi was never a "Kwan head". He held an honorary kwan president position at the Chung Do Kwan during the 1950's, but it was without any authority. And the first Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan was GM NAM Tae Hi. General Choi couldn't hold any real kwan head position because of his position in the ROK Army.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

Victor Smith said:


> Kee didn't join the TKD and kept to his shotokan studies.



By "Kee" I am assuming you are referring to GM HWANG Kee. "Hwang" is his last name, not Kee.




Victor Smith said:


> But the Korean's can not acknowldge the Japanese nor should they ever.



The second generation pioneers all recognize and acknowledge that Taekwondo has evolved in part through Okinawan Karate which was learned by their Korean born teachers in Japan. The Korean born teachers also openly admit and discuss the fact that they studied Karate in Japan. In fact, many older Koreans are very proud of their Japan education. Back in Korea in the 40's and beyond, to be educated in Japan was like an American saying that he was educated at Oxford -- something that one is proud of.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> TKD was my first art and I still remember being fed the TKD is 2000 years old replete with the Hwarangdo creation myth.  I don't support untruthful propaganda, even if it is understandable why it arose in the first place.




Again, it depends on your perspective. The 2000 year old thing is in reference to the culture and history of using kicks in Korea. This cultural aspect of Korea was incorporated and blended into the Karate based arts that were being practiced in the 1940's and beyond. The kicking portion of Taekwondo, which is a very unique development in the martial arts, came from Korea. Karate certainly didn't have it, and at this point, Karate is adopting kicking methods from Taekwondo.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> Again, it depends on your perspective. The 2000 year old thing is in reference to the culture and history of using kicks in Korea. This cultural aspect of Korea was incorporated and blended into the Karate based arts that were being practiced in the 1940's and beyond. The kicking portion of Taekwondo, which is a very unique development in the martial arts, came from Korea. Karate certainly didn't have it, and at this point, Karate is adopting kicking methods from Taekwondo.



Indeed, it all depends on perspective.  Emphasizing kicks as a nod to artifacts like tae kyon might be a good link back to Korean culture and history.  Saying TKD itself is 2000 years old as I have seen on the 'net as well as spoken verbatim is not.

By the way, where do you see kicking pollination coming into karate from TKD?  I suppose tournament competition would be one obvious place, but to your knowledge are you aware of any style adopting Korean kicks wide scale?


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Indeed, it all depends on perspective.  Emphasizing kicks as a nod to artifacts like tae kyon might be a good link back to Korean culture and history.  Saying TKD itself is 2000 years old as I have seen on the 'net as well as spoken verbatim is not.




Maybe to some people Taekwondo is 2000 years old because they are focusing in on the korean cultural aspect of Taekwondo. You disagree, perhaps because you are focusing in on the karate aspect of Taekwondo. I hear a lot of karate practitioners look at Taekwondo and say that Taekwondo is Karate, seeing only what they want to see and ignoring everything else. I don't think that perspective is any valid as someone denying that Taekwondo has no roots in karate. 




dancingalone said:


> By the way, where do you see kicking pollination coming into karate from TKD?  I suppose tournament competition would be one obvious place, but to your knowledge are you aware of any style adopting Korean kicks wide scale?



I see it from my own perspective as well as others. I was originally a Shotokan student who wanted to learn about korean style kicks. I also know that there is a Karate champion from Hawaii, George Kotaka, who spent time learning kicking from a Taekwondo instructor (who is my student). We went on bring that back to his father's organization, and ended up winning quite a few tournaments using the kicks he learned while a taekwondo student.

Also, karate kicks were very crude and basic up until recently. In Shotokan we only learned front, round, side and some crescent kicks, along with other leg movements from the kata. We didn't have any spinning, jumping spinning, instep roundhouse, ax kick, or any other kicks that are common now in many schools. Karate has borrowed from Taekwondo, in much the same way that Taekwondo borrowed from Karate. It is inevitable, unless you live in a cave someplace isolated from the world.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> useful as first places of contact that might lead them to more academic research made by people like Dakin Burdick.
> 
> Burdick's article about TKD history is available at http://www.budosportcapelle.nl/gesch.html with a full bibliography for anyone who is interested in reading further.




Dakin Burdick's article has been disproven to be filled with inaccuracies. He admitted it to me when we discussed his article, which is contains no original research but is merely a cut and paste plagerism of an article by Corocan and Farkas. The names, dates as well as his conclusions are erroneous, which again Dakin has publicly admitted back in the late 90's.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> *Maybe to some people Taekwondo is 2000 years old because they are focusing in on the korean cultural aspect of Taekwondo*. You disagree, perhaps because you are focusing in on the karate aspect of Taekwondo. I hear a lot of karate practitioners look at Taekwondo and say that Taekwondo is Karate, seeing only what they want to see and ignoring everything else. I don't think that perspective is any valid as someone denying that Taekwondo has no roots in karate.



Are you misunderstanding me?  I have both HEARD and SEEN first hand people and websites saying tae kwon do is a 2000 year old art in of itself.  It's something many members here can also recount first hand.  With the wider spread of information these days, thankfully the myth is repeated less often as people become more educated.

I definitely think there was some institutional mythology creation in the past, and now all sides are retreating to more defensible positions.




puunui said:


> I see it from my own perspective as well as others. I was originally a Shotokan student who wanted to learn about korean style kicks. I also know that there is a Karate champion from Hawaii, George Kotaka, who spent time learning kicking from a Taekwondo instructor (who is my student). We went on bring that back to his father's organization, and ended up winning quite a few tournaments using the kicks he learned while a taekwondo student.



Tournament fighters, then.  As I expected.



puunui said:


> Also, karate kicks were very crude and basic up until recently. In Shotokan we only learned front, round, side and some crescent kicks, along with other leg movements from the kata. We didn't have any spinning, jumping spinning, instep roundhouse, ax kick, or any other kicks that are common now in many schools. Karate has borrowed from Taekwondo, in much the same way that Taekwondo borrowed from Karate. It is inevitable, unless you live in a cave someplace isolated from the world.



Again, do you have a specific example of a ryu borrowing kicks from TKD?  As you confirm mawashi-geri (roundhouse) and mikazuki-geri (crescent) have been found in Shotokan for decades now.  As is kaiten ushiro-geri (spinning back kick).  I don't think ax kicks or any of the other spinning kicks are practiced commonly as part of an official grading syllabus in any strain of Japanese or Okinawan karate (other than Kyokushin, a rather special case).  Individual sensei may add something like a hook kick from time to time like I do because of my TKD background, but that is individual preference rather than a overall directional move.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> Dakin Burdick's article has been disproven to be filled with inaccuracies. He admitted it to me when we discussed his article, which is contains no original research but is merely a cut and paste plagerism of an article by Corocan and Farkas. The names, dates as well as his conclusions are erroneous, which again Dakin has publicly admitted back in the late 90's.



Thank you.  That is good to know.  How do you feel about the bibliography Mr. Burdick provided?


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> General Choi was never a "Kwan head". He held an honorary kwan president position at the Chung Do Kwan during the 1950's, but it was without any authority. And the first Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan was GM NAM Tae Hi. General Choi couldn't hold any real kwan head position because of his position in the ROK Army.


 


Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> Depends on how you define Shotokan and also Taekwondo. The most senior Shotokan student from Korea was GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan. GM Lee began his training while a student at Chuo University and continued his studies after graduation. GM Lee (who I interviewed at length both at his house and over the telephone) stated that his main teacher was not FUNAKOSHI Gichin, but rather his son, FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who GM Lee referred to as "Waka Sensei", or young sensei. GM Lee said he studied mostly with Waka Sensei during the night classes. Waka Sensei had a day job, just like GM Lee and so they worked in the day and trained at night.
> 
> GM Lee stated that Waka Sensei emphasized a very short narrow stance as well as economical arm movements. This is what he taught to his students during the 1940's. Waka Sensei died in 1945, and his work was taken over by junior students such as Nakayama Sensei of the JKA. GM Lee was senior to Nakayama Sensei in age and experience in Shotokan.
> 
> ...



This was rather interesting to read.  I wanted to note however that there are various karate history articles that state the contrary, that "Gigo" Funakoshi was in fact at least partially responsible for the long stances found today in Shotokan karate.  Google will bring up some like this one:

http://www.shotokai.cl/historia/35_eh_.html

"With Yoshitaka's involvement in Karate-do, the technical developments and changes were spectacular and seminal, modifying the style that had been practiced until that moment. *The high stances were replaced with low, forced stances*, this included a a perpendicular lower leg with respect to the ground, the knee over the big toe, these changes immediately shot the effort and roughness of the training to a new dimension, and put a strong pressure on the mental and physical practice of Karate-do and it's followers."


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Are you misunderstanding me?  I have both HEARD and SEEN first hand people and websites saying tae kwon do is a 2000 year old art in of itself.  It's something many members here can also recount first hand.  With the wider spread of information these days, thankfully the myth is repeated less often as people become more educated.



No I don't think I am misunderstanding you. Try reading what I wrote. You say Taekwondo is not 2000 years old because of its karate roots. Others are saying it is 2000 years old because of the cultural overlay. 




dancingalone said:


> I definitely think there was some institutional mythology creation in the past, and now all sides are retreating to more defensible positions.



And I can tell you exactly when it started. There was a meeting at the IOC wherein Taekwondo was attempting to become an Olympic Sport. The Japanese IOC member said that Taekwondo is nothing more than a Korean version of Karate, and therefore it should not become an Olympic sport, but rather Karate should be admitted. Dr. Un Yong KIM responded by saying no, Taekwondo is not karate but rather has its roots in Korean history going back 2000 years. Here, look at these cave paintings and statues. 




dancingalone said:


> Tournament fighters, then.  As I expected.



Tournament fighters are the most visible examples that would adopt modern kicking. But I am sure there are self defense types who added in Taekwondo kicks. I'll go see if I can find you more examples. 




dancingalone said:


> Again, do you have a specific example of a ryu borrowing kicks from TKD?  As you confirm mawashi-geri (roundhouse) and mikazuki-geri (crescent) have been found in Shotokan for decades now. As is kaiten ushiro-geri (spinning back kick).



Yeah, but the kicks aren't performed in the same way. In shotokan, we used to lift our leg up like a dog peeing and kick with the ball of the foot like a horizontal roundhouse. 

There is an instructor here who teaches shorin ryu who is very proud of his roundhouse kick, and he does it like a taekwondo person. You could say that his branch has adopted the taekwondo roundhouse. 

And we never did any sort of spinning back kick when I learned shotokan. Our back kick was more like a mule kick directed straight backwards. There was no spin. If you are doing spin back kick then that is an adaptation from korean martial arts. Even if it was decades ago, that does not mean it hasn't been adapted from korean styles. 




dancingalone said:


> I don't think ax kicks or any of the other spinning kicks are practiced commonly as part of an official grading syllabus in any strain of Japanese or Okinawan karate (other than Kyokushin, a rather special case).  Individual sensei may add something like a hook kick from time to time like I do because of my TKD background, but that is individual preference rather than a overall directional move.



The point is, practitioners from other styles are adopting taekwondo and other korean based martial arts. Lyoto Machida claims a shotokan background but his kicks look more like korean style kicking than shotokan, at least the shotokan I learned.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Emphasizing kicks as a nod to artifacts like tae kyon might be a good link back to Korean culture and history.




Taekkyon is alive and well.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> How do you feel about the bibliography Mr. Burdick provided?




Most of the sources that he used, except for the ones by corcoran and farkas, aren't really historical articles. They are regular books and magazine articles that have a small passing blurb on history, which dakin cobbled together to create his collage. I have most of those, especially the korean martial arts ones, and I at one point tried to recreate what he did. Dakin work is more akin to a plagerized high school term paper rather than any sort of scholarly work.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> "With Yoshitaka's involvement in Karate-do, the technical developments and changes were spectacular and seminal, modifying the style that had been practiced until that moment. *The high stances were replaced with low, forced stances*, this included a a perpendicular lower leg with respect to the ground, the knee over the big toe, these changes immediately shot the effort and roughness of the training to a new dimension, and put a strong pressure on the mental and physical practice of Karate-do and it's followers."




I understand that. What that is about is that Waka Sensei used to put his full body weight behind each blow, especially when training on the makiwara. He would really lunge deeply and would snap the makiwara in half using his punches. But during sparring or actual application, he would drag his back leg up after the deep lunge so that he stance would once again become narrow. 

His students would copy that motion and adopted that to their forms, or at least that is what they remembered. You have to understand that many of the senior students did not train during the 1940's because they were busy fighting in the Japanese army or were stationed outside of Japan. They were gone for five or more years, and when they returned, Waka Sensei had passed away. What they were left with was trying to remember what Waka Sensei did five or six or more years before. GM LEE Won Kuk on the other hand, studied continuously under Waka Sensei for at least ten years, up through almost the time of Waka Sensei's death in 1945. GM Lee left Japan and went back to korea in 1944 because he said that the americans were bombing tokyo on a daily basis and it was very dangerous to live there. the civilian casualties were high and so he felt that moving back to korea would be safer, since no one was bombing korea. 

So GM Lee has a different perspective than some of the others who studied at the Shotokan under Waka Sensei. When GM Lee moved back to Japan in 1950, and throughout that period, he said that he could see the changes in shotokan at the jka, shotokai and other groups, going to that long wide stance. he said that was a perversion of what waka sensei taught. He was really upset when he saw the same thing in korea back in 1967 and spent several months trying to fix all of that. 

Which brings us full circle, in that kukki taekwondo is more similar to shotokan as originally practiced than what shotokan is today. Even the hand movements are more similar. For example, shotokan adopted the chambering hand on knife hand block as a forward chamber, whereas taekwondo had maintained the original chamber of both arm sweeping back and then coming forward.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> No I don't think I am misunderstanding you. Try reading what I wrote. You say Taekwondo is not 2000 years old because of its karate roots. Others are saying it is 2000 years old because of the cultural overlay.



I am telling you what others have said verbatim in my presence.  You ascribe their misstatements as arising from a 'cultural overlay', something you cannot know is true or not.  

Some may be making an intelligent connection to the past.  Others are undoubtedly engaging full bore in the continuation of the myth.
.


puunui said:


> And I can tell you exactly when it started. There was a meeting at the IOC wherein Taekwondo was attempting to become an Olympic Sport. The Japanese IOC member said that Taekwondo is nothing more than a Korean version of Karate, and therefore it should not become an Olympic sport, but rather Karate should be admitted. Dr. Un Yong KIM responded by saying no, Taekwondo is not karate but rather has its roots in Korean history going back 2000 years. Here, look at these cave paintings and statues.



That is interesting, but I believe there was rather more myth-making than that anecdote relates.  It came from all sides, not just the KKW.  Even from those outside of TKD, such as tang soo do factions at one point.



puunui said:


> Tournament fighters are the most visible examples that would adopt modern kicking. But I am sure there are self defense types who added in Taekwondo kicks. I'll go see if I can find you more examples.



I'm not looking for individuals.  I am sure that takes place.  I'm actually a good example of someone who considers himself primarily a karate person yet has retained/adopted certain facets of Korean MA kicking.

I'm more interested in discussion of entire karate ryu or ryu-ha that adopted TKD kicks.  I just don't think that happened by and large.  Karate systems have considerably different tactical goals than TKD systems to.  It would make little sense for most of them to borrow things like ax kicks or jumping 360 kicks. 



puunui said:


> Yeah, but the kicks aren't performed in the same way. In shotokan, we used to lift our leg up like a dog peeing and kick with the ball of the foot like a horizontal roundhouse.



I understand classical Shotokan technique still fits the interesting description you've given.  If you consult the texts like Dynamic Karate by Nakayama, there it is plain writ.



puunui said:


> There is an instructor here who teaches shorin ryu who is very proud of his roundhouse kick, and he does it like a taekwondo person. You could say that his branch has adopted the taekwondo roundhouse.



Which ryu-ha of Shorin-ryu?



puunui said:


> And we never did any sort of spinning back kick when I learned shotokan. Our back kick was more like a mule kick directed straight backwards. There was no spin. If you are doing spin back kick then that is an adaptation from korean martial arts. Even if it was decades ago, that does not mean it hasn't been adapted from korean styles.



Hmm, that's not necessarily the case.  Spinning back kicks are well known in styles that predate TKD, such as cha quan for example.  I wasn't alive when Nakayama codified what is now known as classical JKA karate, but you can find the usage of kaiten ushiro-geri in the JKA tournaments in which men like Enoeda or Kanazawa competed.  This would have been circa the sixties at least.




puunui said:


> The point is, practitioners from other styles are adopting taekwondo and other korean based martial arts. Lyoto Machida claims a shotokan background but his kicks look more like korean style kicking than shotokan, at least the shotokan I learned.



Sure.  I've never disputed that individual practitioners pick up ideas here and there.  What I doubt is that there is any systemic or organizational movement in karate to adopt technique from TKD either now or in the immediate past.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> Taekkyon is alive and well.



A recreation of it anyway.  Similar to the Korean sword arts, I believe.

I can't find the article I read right now, but I recall reading something online about Song Duk Ki admitting he hadn't practiced taekkyon in years and that he had forgotten most of it.  I'll source the article later if I can find it.

If people want to practice a reconstructed sport, I see no problems with that.  It's probably something very enjoyable.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I am telling you what others have said verbatim in my presence.  You ascribe their misstatements as arising from a 'cultural overlay', something you cannot know is true or not.  Some may be making an intelligent connection to the past.  Others are undoubtedly engaging full bore in the continuation of the myth.



Maybe they truly believe that taekwondo is 2000 years old. And they wouldn't be wrong, given the cultural overlay of using leg techniques for fighting, taekkyon and all of that. 
.


That is interesting, but I believe there was rather more myth-making than that anecdote relates.  It came from all sides, not just the KKW.  Even from those outside of TKD, such as tang soo do factions at one point.





dancingalone said:


> I'm more interested in discussion of entire karate ryu or ryu-ha that adopted TKD kicks.  I just don't think that happened by and large.



ok.




dancingalone said:


> Karate systems have considerably different tactical goals than TKD systems to.



What is the difference between taekwondo and karate as far as tactical goals go? 



dancingalone said:


> Which ryu-ha of Shorin-ryu?



His teacher was Chibana Sensei. I don't think he named his own ryu. He's not that kind of guy. 




dancingalone said:


> Hmm, that's not necessarily the case.  Spinning back kicks are well known in styles that predate TKD, such as cha quan for example.  I wasn't alive when Nakayama codified what is now known as classical JKA karate, but you can find the usage of kaiten ushiro-geri in the JKA tournaments in which men like Enoeda or Kanazawa competed.  This would have been circa the sixties at least.



I was practicing Shotokan in the 60's and we weren't doing any spin back kicks. My teacher, Sensei Ken Funakoshi, learned from Kanazawa Sensei from the early 60's. The only kick we really did as far as tournaments or sparring went was front kick. 



dancingalone said:


> I've never disputed that individual practitioners pick up ideas here and there.  What I doubt is that there is any systemic or organizational movement in karate to adopt technique from TKD either now or in the immediate past.



Organizations are run by people, specifically individuals. So if an individual instructor picks it up, then like your situation, your "ryu" picks it up as well, as something that you passed on to your students. 

But I understand what you are saying, as well as the point you are making. it's the karate vs. 2000 year thing popping up again. you focus on one thing, and me on the other.


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## puunui (Dec 9, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I recall reading something online about Song Duk Ki admitting he hadn't practiced taekkyon in years and that he had forgotten most of it.




He probably did stop for a long time and perhaps he did forget a lot of what he knew. But I also believe that he remembered a lot of it as well, at least the main parts. I haven't played dodge ball in decades, but I am pretty sure i could organize a game if I wanted to that substantially recreates what we did as kids, even if I may have forgotten some of the rules. Does that mean that my version of dodge ball is somehow invalid and that I am nothing more than a dodge ball revisionist and reconstructionist? 

I know that there are techniques in taekkyon that no one knows what the purpose was, so they cataloged those and kept them so that in the future perhaps someone can figure out where it is supposed to go.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> He probably did stop for a long time and perhaps he did forget a lot of what he knew. But I also believe that he remembered a lot of it as well, at least the main parts. I haven't played dodge ball in decades, but I am pretty sure i could organize a game if I wanted to that substantially recreates what we did as kids, even if I may have forgotten some of the rules. Does that mean that my version of dodge ball is somehow invalid and that I am nothing more than a dodge ball revisionist and reconstructionist?
> 
> I know that there are techniques in taekkyon that no one knows what the purpose was, so they cataloged those and kept them so that in the future perhaps someone can figure out where it is supposed to go.




I didn't say it was invalid.  A reconstruction, yes, which is the truth.  Surely the new taekkyon can find an audience while being completely candid about its origins.

Like I said, it's probably a great game/sport to play.  I am an avid tennis player and I know what is played now is very different from what was played during the times of the Sun King, even if the name is the same.  And taekkyon seems to have rather more rules/ritual dance components to it, making it considerably more complex to reinvent than dodgeball.


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## dancingalone (Dec 9, 2010)

puunui said:


> What is the difference between taekwondo and karate as far as tactical goals go?



I've studied Okinawan Goju-ryu (Jundokan lineage) and Maysubayashi Shorin-ryu.  Neither would be considered a long-range style as undoubtedly modern taekwondo would have to be.  Thus no need or desire to practice the esoteric kicks from taekwondo.



puunui said:


> His teacher was Chibana Sensei. I don't think he named his own ryu. He's not that kind of guy.



We used to have some Shorinkan members here.  Perhaps they can speak up if they are reading.  I don't think they have ax kicks or jumping 360 kicks either.  Certainly Matsubayashi does not.




puunui said:


> I was practicing Shotokan in the 60's and we weren't doing any spin back kicks. My teacher, Sensei Ken Funakoshi, learned from Kanazawa Sensei from the early 60's. The only kick we really did as far as tournaments or sparring went was front kick.



I believe Asai did it in a match against the stocky JKA instructor... Can't recall his name.  There are other examples.  However, I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that karate styles simply kick a lot less than the Korean styles do and much more conservatively as well.  And so kaiten ushiro-geri would have been a 'wow' technique, not one considered bread and butter like mae-geri.


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## Cirdan (Dec 10, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm more interested in discussion of entire karate ryu or ryu-ha that adopted TKD kicks. I just don't think that happened by and large. Karate systems have considerably different tactical goals than TKD systems to. It would make little sense for most of them to borrow things like ax kicks or jumping 360 kicks.


 
I am a bit curious to the origin of the axe kick. We do it at higher kyu levels at our traditional Wado dojo, certainly not the most practiced kick but is is in the actual curriculum (rather than an exercice meant to improve balance and flexibility). Sensei tells us there is a lot of stuff borrowed from other styles (Aikido, FMA, Tai Chi etc), but TKD is not one of these. I wouldn`t be suprised if there are other applications for the move besides the actual kick tho.


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## puunui (Dec 10, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I've studied Okinawan Goju-ryu (Jundokan lineage) and Maysubayashi Shorin-ryu.  Neither would be considered a long-range style as undoubtedly modern taekwondo would have to be.  Thus no need or desire to practice the esoteric kicks from taekwondo.




A taekwondo (and hapkido) practitioner should train with the goal of kicking in any range and at any distance. If I stand nose to nose to you, I should be able to kick you in the head, body or leg. 

Not to change the subject, but I have heard the idea that the kata Sanchin was actually based on wing chun's siu lim tao, including the dynamic tension aspects and some of the arm movements. Do you have any opinion or feeling about that?


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## dancingalone (Dec 10, 2010)

puunui said:


> Not to change the subject, but I have heard the idea that the kata Sanchin was actually based on wing chun's siu lim tao, including the dynamic tension aspects and some of the arm movements. Do you have any opinion or feeling about that?



In my opinion, I don't think so.  It's possible that the Sil Lum Tao form and Sanchin kata evolved from a common ancestor form however.    

The folk lore around wing chun says that it was developed by a Buddhist nun as a shortened yet effective course of her own martial arts, a crane fighting system .  

With regard to Okinawan karate the link back to the gong fu from the Fukien province in China is well known.  You can see Chinese versions of the uncorrupted(?) Samchien form found in Fukien White Crane as well as Ngo Cho Kun.  They definitely share certain concepts with the Goju-ryu karate version, but it's clear (and documented) that Miyagi Sensei altered the Samchien his teacher taught him to be harder and  more forceful.  The Uechi-ryu karate version of Sanchin is softer and less altered in comparison; it certainly looks more like the Chinese versions of Samchien I've seen.

Not being a Wing Chun player, I can't speak authoritatively as to what Sil Lum Tao is supposed to teach.  I believe I could play with the form and come up with Goju-based applications based on what I learned from Sanchin kata however, so maybe there is indeed some kinship there through the Crane gong fu connection.


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## puunui (Dec 10, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> They definitely share certain concepts with the Goju-ryu karate version, but it's clear (and documented) that Miyagi Sensei altered the Samchien his teacher taught him to be harder and  more forceful.




Thanks for the answer. I studied Wing Chun (or more specifically Wing Chun Do) and so I wondered about that connection. One more question if I may. Miyagi Sensei died quite young, and I have heard some speculation that it was because of his forceful practice of Sanchin. Do you think there is any sort of danger in practicing Sanchin the way Miyagi Sensei practiced it? My intuition says probably not, but I am not a Goju Ryu practitioner.


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## puunui (Dec 10, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> I am a bit curious to the origin of the axe kick.




The Taekwondo ax kick was developed by GM Sang Chul LEE in the mid 1960's during competition. At 6'1" or so, GM Lee was taller than many of his opponents, and he used ax kick to completely dominate his smaller opponents. Back in those days, there were no weight divisions, so a six footer could end up fighting a five three competitor. 

Hapkido also has an ax kick, which was developed by GM JI Han Jae in the 1950's, but it was used mainly as a finishing technique once you got your opponent bent over with hand technique. The Hapkido ax kick was used mainly to the back or back of the head of the opponent. 

I believe the two ax kicks in the two different arts were developed independently of each other, but I can ask and find out.


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## puunui (Dec 10, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I am an avid tennis player and I know what is played now is very different from what was played during the times of the Sun King, even if the name is the same.  And taekkyon seems to have rather more rules/ritual dance components to it, making it considerably more complex to reinvent than dodgeball.




I play tennis as well, and the game has evolved over the last twenty or so years. I think equipment improvements have changed the singles game to a baseline rally situation. No more chip and charge like Pete Sampras used to do. Also, I don't know how much influence Taekwondo has had on modern Taekkyon, but there is a similarity from my uneducated eye between the two arts. I wouldn't be surprised if Taekkyon has borrowed some techniques or concepts from Taekwondo. But I think there are less rules in Taekkyon, I want to say that you can push the opponent down or kick his topknot, but that is about it. The ritual dance movements, called poombalki I believe, are used prior to the actual exchanges. I was speaking to GM Al Cole, who is the head of Taekkyon in the US and is the one who is sponsoring that Taekkyon seminar next year, and he said that Taekkyon is based on natural movements of mainly country people. I can't remember exactly, but I think he said that the poombalki motions were based on hiking up mountains. If you hike up, then that would be the natural motion of your hip. Also, the terminology is based on pidgin country Korean dialects, which are sometimes hard to understand. 

Taekkyon in Korea is booming and I think there are 500,000 or more practitioners in Korea now. they say it is the second largest martial art in Korea now, larger than even Hapkido.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 10, 2010)

The ax kick as I learned it from my instructors was to target the back of the head once the opponent was bent over/down from another technique, a finishing movement.  I learned that in TKD, not Hapkido.


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## dancingalone (Dec 11, 2010)

puunui said:


> Thanks for the answer. I studied Wing Chun (or more specifically Wing Chun Do) and so I wondered about that connection. One more question if I may. Miyagi Sensei died quite young, and I have heard some speculation that it was because of his forceful practice of Sanchin. Do you think there is any sort of danger in practicing Sanchin the way Miyagi Sensei practiced it? My intuition says probably not, but I am not a Goju Ryu practitioner.




Back in the eighties, someone ran an experiment to test this theory.  They got a MD to hook a karate player up to an EKG machine as well as run other vital signs tests after he had performed Sanchin kata a number of times.  The heart rate and blood pressure numbers were comparable to someone who had just engaged in some weight lifting training.  So, the conclusions were that Sanchin was not necessary harmful in of itself, although certainly someone in poor physical shape might not be up to it.

Miyagi Sensei lived until he was 63 or 64.  Not tremendously long-lived like some other Okinawans, but he had lived through the privations of WWII along with facing the grief from losing many members of his family along with his students (and senior student).  He also reportedly was a smoker, so there may be other external factors that contributed to his 'early' death.

But I'll admit I don't perform Sanchin as violently hard as I used to when I was younger.  I used to be able to make myself dizzy with the exertion and the forceful breath exhalation and my sensei would caution me on overdoing it.  These days I prefer soft applications and movements in my karate, so I naturally also play Sanchin softer.


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## puunui (Dec 11, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Back in the eighties, someone ran an experiment to test this theory.  They got a MD to hook a karate player up to an EKG machine as well as run other vital signs tests after he had performed Sanchin kata a number of times.  The heart rate and blood pressure numbers were comparable to someone who had just engaged in some weight lifting training.  So, the conclusions were that Sanchin was not necessary harmful in of itself, although certainly someone in poor physical shape might not be up to it.



Thanks for the answer. I wondered about that for a long time, and I figured a Goju student would have heard the same thing and investigated it in depth.




dancingalone said:


> Miyagi Sensei lived until he was 63 or 64.  Not tremendously long-lived like some other Okinawans, but he had lived through the privations of WWII along with facing the grief from losing many members of his family along with his students (and senior student).  He also reportedly was a smoker, so there may be other external factors that contributed to his 'early' death.



Here in Hawaii, there is a significant Okinawan population (one of my best and oldest friends is Okinawan, who I met in the first grade) and there is a tendency to live a very long life. I think part of it is the diet (there is a book out there called the Okinawan diet I believe) but I also think part of it is the gentle attitude of the culture and people. 




dancingalone said:


> But I'll admit I don't perform Sanchin as violently hard as I used to when I was younger.  I used to be able to make myself dizzy with the exertion and the forceful breath exhalation and my sensei would caution me on overdoing it.  These days I prefer soft applications and movements in my karate, so I naturally also play Sanchin softer.



When I was younger, I trained forms really hard, thinking that there were hidden secrets in them which needed to be mined like gold via hard, consistent practice. Then I hit a point where I felt like forms were meaningless, and stopped completely for about 10-15 years. Then about ten years ago, the Kukkiwon opened up its instructor course to non-koreans and so I trained really hard for two years getting ready for it. I was doing about 120-130 reps of forms per day six days a week plus the regular kick workout everyday. I wanted to go after one year but something came up and I had to wait until the next year to do it. By the time I got to the course, I trained two years and did about 50,000+ poomsae reps in that time. 

Now my intensity and repetition level is much lower, and I find I do the poomsae mainly for health reasons more than anything else, to keep my joints lubricated and strong, and that sort of thing. So I'm like you in that sense.


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