# The chicken or the egg in relation to gun laws and crime



## PhotonGuy (Sep 30, 2014)

I stated once before that states with tighter gun laws tend to have a higher crime rate and although my statement might've not been all that accurate, some of the states with loose gun laws have high crime, you also have to take into account other factors. Tennessee which does have rather loose gun laws had the most violent crime of all the states in 2011 but you have to take into account where most of the crimes occurred. Big cities such as Nashville, Knoxville, and Memphis tend to have a much higher crime rate than places located out in the countryside which have a much lower population. And gun laws do vary within a state, big cities tend to have tighter gun laws than rural places. Also, the place with the highest violent crime rate in 2011 was Washington D.C., a far higher crime rate than Tennessee, and D.C. has the tightest gun laws but since its technically not a state it wasn't on the list. Furthermore, Maine was the state with the lowest crime rate and Maine is one of the most gun free states in the country, in Maine you can openly carry a pistol in a holster in public without a permit. 

Anyway, as somebody pointed out, it could be like the "chicken or the egg" in terms of violent crime and gun laws. Another words, as a result of high crime places can enact tighter gun laws to try and bring the crime rate down. Well, even if that is the case, even if having tighter gun laws is the result of high crime that is not the proper way to deal with it. Instead of having more laws, if crime happens to be high what should be done is to enforce the laws we've already got. The answer is in enforcement, not in making more laws. We wouldn't need tighter gun laws if we would just simply enforce the laws we've already got in place. As it is criminals don't follow laws anyway so having more laws will not stop criminals from breaking them, what will stop criminals is enforcement. So, in order to cut down on crime and not make life difficult for law abiding citizens, the solution is to have very few laws but to effectively enforce the laws we've got.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 30, 2014)

You forgot about the fact that laws are created and passed by politicians. Lower crime rates don't get you reelected.   The kabuki dance of passing new gun laws does. Passing laws makes it look like they are doing something when in fact they know the real problems are beyond their controll.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

Passing more laws, in particular passing more gun laws is only attractive to some people, namely the sheep that expect the government to take care of them. Unfortunately, what lots of people don't realize is that guns used in crime are usually purchased on the black market, not from legal sources such as your downtown gun shop. So making guns harder to get from places that sell them legally does no good in cutting down gun crime.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Passing more laws, in particular passing more gun laws is only attractive to some people, namely the sheep that expect the government to take care of them. Unfortunately, what lots of people don't realize is that guns used in crime are usually purchased on the black market, not from legal sources such as your downtown gun shop. So making guns harder to get from places that sell them legally does no good in cutting down gun crime.



I'm not going to comment on gun laws but why do you parrot the 'people are sheep' stuff? Respecting other people's points of view is a vital aspect of life, there are people who hold valid, well thought out views on both sides. People can hold views that aren't the same as you know and not be 'sheep'.


----------



## Cirdan (Oct 1, 2014)

If people are sheep, people with guns are nothing but armed sheep right?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

Being a sheep is a mindset. Somebody with that mindset expects to just go through life in the white (by in the white Im taking about the color codes of awareness, white yellow orange and red, but that is a whole field of study in and of itself so I will not delve much into it here) and trusts other people to take care of them most often the government. Generally speaking its people with that mindset who want really tight gun laws because they believe that personal protection is something that the government should do for us. Somebody with that state of mind will usually not pick up a gun, somebody who takes it upon themselves to train with guns and personal protection is much more the mindset of the sheepdog. So people who own and train with guns and who have good intentions are usually sheepdogs.


----------



## Cirdan (Oct 1, 2014)

And if you practice cutting from youtube videos with your brand new handforged blade I guess you are a ninjer dog.







Also please more info on the rainbow of awareness, it is facinating.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Being a sheep is a mindset. Somebody with that mindset expects to just go through life in the white (by in the white Im taking about the color codes of awareness, white yellow orange and red, but that is a whole field of study in and of itself so I will not delve much into it here) and trusts other people to take care of them most often the government. Generally speaking its people with that mindset who want really tight gun laws because they believe that personal protection is something that the government should do for us. Somebody with that state of mind will usually not pick up a gun, somebody who takes it upon themselves to train with guns and personal protection is much more the mindset of the sheepdog. So people who own and train with guns and who have good intentions are usually sheepdogs.




You don't actually know anything about sheep do you? Sheep are brilliant because they protect their own, they have a defensive circle to protect the young and they are known to be dangerous in lambing season, the male especially. We had a farmer killed by a ram not long ago where I live. Sheep have excellent memories and also recognise danger. They have excellent coping strategies with anything that life throws at them. We have a lot of sheep where I live, they live up on the Dales in all weather protecting their young against foxes and the odd eagle. Please before you malign sheep do actually find out about them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3938591.stm


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2014)

North Yorkshire sheep


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> You don't actually know anything about sheep do you? Sheep are brilliant because they protect their own, they have a defensive circle to protect the young and they are known to be dangerous in lambing season, the male especially. We had a farmer killed by a ram not long ago where I live. Sheep have excellent memories and also recognise danger. They have excellent coping strategies with anything that life throws at them. We have a lot of sheep where I live, they live up on the Dales in all weather protecting their young against foxes and the odd eagle. Please before you malign sheep do actually find out about them.
> BBC NEWS | UK | Crafty sheep conquer cattle grids



When people are referred to sheep its not meant to be taken literally. Its just a term often used in self defense programs. Sheep are people that make easy victims, wolves are predators that prey off sheep and sheepdogs are people that are able to protect themselves and others from wolves. 

Anyway, my point is when the crime rate goes up, the solution is not to make more laws or to have tighter laws, its to enforce the laws we've already got.


----------



## Steve (Oct 1, 2014)

I think when crime goes up too high, just get rid of a bunch of laws.   

Shoot, the lowest crime rates would be in states operating under anarchy.  No crimes to commit because everything is legal. 

There.   Solved the issue for you photon.   You're welcome.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> When people are referred to sheep its not meant to be taken literally. Its just a term often used in self defense programs. Sheep are people that make easy victims, wolves are predators that prey off sheep and sheepdogs are people that are able to protect themselves and others from wolves.
> 
> Anyway, my point is when the crime rate goes up, the solution is not to make more laws or to have tighter laws, its to enforce the laws we've already got.



Bollocks, you are just parroting things you've read, it's a cliché, an untrue one at that. My English teacher used to say using clichés was the sign of a lazy and closed mind.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 1, 2014)

So what is untrue, the concept of people being "sheep" or the idea that dealing with crime should be done by not making more laws but enforcing the ones we've got?


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2014)

&#8220;It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a martial arts forum, in possession of the good fortune to have many experienced martial artists, must be in want of a rest from repeated arguments.&#8221; 

with apologises to Jane Austen.


----------



## Steve (Oct 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> So what is untrue, the concept of people being "sheep" or the idea that dealing with crime should be done by not making more laws but enforcing the ones we've got?



Making new laws is in no way related to enforcing existing laws.   One can do both.  Or neither.  

The sheep thing is a cliche.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 1, 2014)

Since this thread is entirely about the politics of gun laws, it is being closed. Political discussion belongs on this political site, not here on MartialTalk.
Thread Closed.


----------

