# Filthy Wal-Mart



## ArmorOfGod (May 31, 2007)

Okay, everyone here knows how much I hate Wal-Mart (aka: "The End of Western Civilization"), so here is a juicy link:

http://flickr.com/photos/filthywalmart/sets/72157594480314905/comments/

then when you are done with that, click on this link, which will show you some of the fallout and reactions to that mess:  http://www.filthywalmart.com/

AoG


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## Bob Hubbard (May 31, 2007)

Looks like the ones near me.  I finally stopped shopping there as they never had anything in stock that I needed.


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## exile (May 31, 2007)

Costco. Costco. Costco.

That is all ye need to know....


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## BrandiJo (Jun 1, 2007)

our walmart is fairly clean.... but yuck! 

we would shop costco if we had one near here lol but its a 3 hour drive ​


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## tellner (Jun 1, 2007)

MallWart has contributed more to the destruction of American industry, declining standards of living, loss of local small business and deterioration of labor standards than any other single entity in the past twenty years. Un-**** 'em. ****ing is too good for 'em. 

One of the reasons that Costco's stock price is so low is that, so the analysts universally say, they are being punished for treating their workers too well. Their marginal profit is high. Their productivity is spectacular. But the founder insists on treating his workers well, giving them a living wage and real benefits. Wall Street thinks that is just scanadalous and that he should treat them more like WalMart does.


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## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2007)

Yes Costco is a great alternative


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## Carol (Jun 1, 2007)

I like BJ's Wholesale.  Heaven only knows why a single gal needs to buy paper plates by the 600-pack but hey...the price is right. :lol:


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## MA-Caver (Jun 1, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I like BJ's Wholesale.  Heaven only knows why a single gal needs to buy paper plates by the 600-pack but hey...the price is right. :lol:


Well you only need to buy them _once a year_... think of the cost savings right there!  

Walmarts I've seen/shopped at aren't as messy as the one in the photo. To me it says bad management and ill treated employees. 

Costco is a great alternative even for single people who have the space to put up bulk stock. Still one is able to buy bulk food and keep it fresh long enough for consumption. :idunno: I'd shop there if there was one around.


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## Blotan Hunka (Jun 1, 2007)

A department store is responsible for the downfall of western society? I LOVE that. The WallMart gestapo must be rounding up all those customers and transporting them to the doors by train. LOL.


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## Mark L (Jun 1, 2007)

Blaming Wal-Mart for societal decline?  Two words:  Market Economy.


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## Blotan Hunka (Jun 1, 2007)

Mark L said:


> Blaming Wal-Mart for societal decline? Two words: Market Economy.


 
And those who want to limit our freedom to buy what we want from whom we want? Communists.

Not that Im a WallMart shopper. The environment doesnt appeal to me, but when I want to buy something of medium quality at a low price, they do fill that niche nicely.


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## JBrainard (Jun 1, 2007)

So that's how they
keep their prices so
low, they don't use
any labor cleaning.
 %think%



tellner said:


> MallWart has contributed more to the destruction of American industry, declining standards of living, loss of local small business and deterioration of labor standards than any other single entity in the past twenty years.



For all who are laughing at this comment: Sorry guys, it's true. Read up on it and you'll probably stop laughing.


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## shesulsa (Jun 1, 2007)

Costco pays better than most stores of its kind, is cleaner than most stores of its kind; though buying in those quantities is sometimes NOT cost-effective.  Be careful what you buy at Costco - like ... restraunt-sized barbecue sauce.  Unless it's your only condiment and you utilize a pint per day, you're not likely to use all of it before much of it goes bad.

But back to Hellmart ... think about it.  What is the benchmark of the American Corporation right now?  How are companies evaluated?  What drives the economy?  The almighty dollar.

If many people patron places based on the stretchability of their funds alone, the dollar rules the day ... and we allow it.  This means the person raking in the dough makes the rules.  Walmart doesn't buy from suppliers at the same cost other distributors buy at - they tell suppliers what they will pay for the items they want to buy ... and suppliers will give them that price because they KNOW the product will move at Walmart.  What they lack in profit margin they make up for in volume.

Walmart, IMO, is a Mob retailer.  I boycott them.


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## Lynne (Jun 1, 2007)

Eww.  Our Wal-Mart is very clean.  Now, I have seen rotten cauliflower and slimy carrots though.

It's the customers who are more of a pain-in-the-backside than anything.  I have never seen so many rude people in my life.  How can someone block a 10-foot wide aisle?  Easy.  They turn their cart sideways and stick their big bum out.  And you can't get around them!  The people on scooters are rude,too.  They don't care.

Master Trudgill from Wales gave a clinic at our school.  His clothing was lost.  He asked my daughter, "Bonnie, where should I go to get clothes?  Should I go to Wal-Mart?"  Bonnie replied, "You'll see Americans at their worst."  Lol.


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## Kacey (Jun 1, 2007)

I personally don't like Wal-Mart - if I want something in that range, I'll go to Target, as the Targets around me are closer, cleaner, better staffed, and similar in price.  I also belong to Costco, and, speaking as a single person with room to store bulk items - the only things I don't regularly buy at Costco are perishables (although they have great prices on cheese, and I can eat that fast enough for it not to go bad, and their seasonal fruit prices are wonderful) and soda, which is cheaper at the grocery store.  I'll buy things like milk at Costco if I happen to need it when I'm there, but it's not worth a separate trip.


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## Mark L (Jun 1, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> For all who are laughing at this comment: Sorry guys, it's true. Read up on it and you'll probably stop laughing.


The point I was trying to make is that Wal-Mart is so successful and pervasive because so many shop there.  They are in business to make money, and like it or not, they're pretty good at it.  If we don't like their business practices (and the corresponding results of those practices on our communities), rather than bemoaning their methods and impacts we are all perfectly free to shop elsewhere, which I do.


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## tellner (Jun 1, 2007)

The problem with that classic "vote with your feet" capitalist screed is that it runs into problems in the real world. 

First, WalMart has market power. Their presence kills off the competition, particularly small and locally owned businesses. If they are in your area the alternatives become few, marginalized and often completely non-existent. 

Second, they tend to negotiate (or demand) and get huge public subsidies in the form of tax breaks, "regulatory relief", not having to pay for the costs of installing and maintaining public infrastructure and so on. Reports from a couple of years ago put those subsidies and resulting artificially lower prices at the tens of billions nationally. 

Third, they use their economic power to get local laws and ordinances passed which are favorable to them and their business models in effect using the power of government as a way of lowering their costs.

Fourth, they have a pattern of lowering prices temporarily - until the competition has been driven out of business.

Fifth, their labor practices make it impossible for workers to negotiate for decent pay and conditions. They are famous for discrimmination on the basis of sex and age, knowingly hiring illegal aliens and firing anyone who even suggests unionization let alone tries to organize one. They also lower their labor costs artificially by squeezing out benefits such as health care in ways that somewhat smaller competitors can not do. They have the economic and political power to do so. There was a bit of a scandal a couple years back where their national policy on health care for workers was revealed. Except for a chosen few the procedure was for the managers to have a list of local charities and social service agencies. In other words, they sloughed the cost of health, dental and accident insurance off onto the taxpayers and the generous.

They really are that evil.


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## CoryKS (Jun 1, 2007)

I personally don't shop at Walmart.  My past experiences with trying to get help from the employees leads me to believe that, at least in some cases, they are overpaid even at minimum wage.  Grunting and pointing to the rear half of the building is not the correct answer to "Where would I find...?"


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## MA-Caver (Jun 1, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> I personally don't shop at Walmart.  My past experiences with trying to get help from the employees leads me to believe that, at least in some cases, they are overpaid even at minimum wage.  Grunting and pointing to the rear half of the building is not the correct answer to "Where would I find...?"


HA! In nearly every store I go to I ask where this or that item is... and it's always "...oh, it's at the back of the store, along aisle... " 
But it's because they're being paid (less than) minimum wage is why you get such crappy service... minimum wage is SUPPOSED to be (now) $7.25 an hour but the president hasn't stopped killing people long enough to sign the bill into law though it was "supposedly passed by congress months ago.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2007)

I didn't like Wal-Mart before I saw the photos and I STILL don't like Wal-Mart.

I tend to feel it must be one of the signs of the apocalypse or at the very least I agree with ArmorOfGod it is "The End of Western Civilization"


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## mrhnau (Jun 1, 2007)

If this was K-Mart, Cosco, BJ's, anything else... you would not find those pictures posted. You find a store manager that is bad, or when they are about to clean merchandise off the shelves, or after an accident, of course you are going to find mess. Personally, I know stores like that in my area. I simply stop going. There is a Walmart close to me, but when I need to go (which is not that frequent) I'll drive an extra 10 miles to go to a nice one.

It's just Americans issue with "Big" stuff... its either "Big oil", "Big pharma", "Big whatever". Exactly how many people are employed by these "Big" companies? How many people in small companies interact with these "Big" companies and bring home a paycheck from them? How would our country be doing w/out these "Big" industries?

My thing, just leave Walmart alone. Don't want to shop there? Fine. Boycott if you like. Let other people show/work there if they want. Free enterprise my friend. Market economy. Hats off to the Walton family for doing so well. People protesting Walmart will find someone else if Walmart disappears. Always have a bone to pick about something. Never happy...


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 1, 2007)

exile said:


> Costco. Costco. Costco.
> 
> That is all ye need to know....


 
I live in South Carolina, and there are only two Costco's in the state.  One is in Charleston and one in Myrtle Beach.  Both are by the ocean coast, so 2 stores in a whole state doesn't work for me.

AoG


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 1, 2007)

tellner said:


> MallWart has contributed more to the destruction of American industry, declining standards of living, loss of local small business and deterioration of labor standards than any other single entity in the past twenty years. Un-**** 'em. ****ing is too good for 'em.


 
Completely 100% true.
I worked at one for a few years right after high school and I remember the store manager coming in showing us a newspaper article showing that David Glass (then head of Wal-Mart) was the richest CEO in the US.  Yes, he was showing that to a break room full of single mothers and men, all of which were being paid below poverty level and were on Medicaid/Food Stamps.  All of which could not afford to get the expensive health insurance because we were being paid minimum wage at around 25 hours per week.

I also remember in about 1994 the speakers of Wal-Mart advertising a song/cd by a county star.  The song was about a big mega store moving into town and shutting down all of the little mom and pop stores.  They played that song several times a day.  Ah, the irony.

AoG


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 1, 2007)

While I do not condone treating employee's unfairly or taking advantage of them in any way I have actually observed some positives from having a WalMart in our small town.  One of these is that the local retail, hardware stores have become more competitive and here is the big plus many of them are giving some of the *best customer service* that I have ever seen.  Take for instance when I bought a lawn mower last summer.  I did not have my truck with me so the local hardware store where I bought it delivered it right to my house at the time of purchase.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  They really stepped up and guess what they earned repeat business from me even if their products are a little more expensive.  

I also like Costco but unfortunately we do not have one closer than an hour away.


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## Lisa (Jun 1, 2007)

I love me Walmart.  I even worked for them for a while.  They treated me well, I enjoyed the customers and the people that I worked with.  I had a great management team and I can honestly say our Walmart never was allowed to be dirty.  However, that being said the Walmarts in Winnipeg don't have fresh fruit and veggies in them.

Costco is great too.  Just, sometimes, I don't need 12 litres of mayonaise


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## JBrainard (Jun 1, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I tend to feel it must be one of the signs of the apocalypse or at the very least I agree with ArmorOfGod it is "The End of Western Civilization"


 
"It's funny 'cuz it's true."
I see it more as capitalism at it's worst. Well, actually, Mcdonalds is worse but that's off topic...



mrhnau said:


> People protesting Walmart will find someone else if Walmart disappears. Always have a bone to pick about something. Never happy...



I dunno, Walmart is the only store I've ever boycotted.


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## Nobody (Jun 1, 2007)

What do you expect at a place that underpays you!  The amount of product that goes through a Wal-Mart is huge.  Per-person the amount of pallets that i was expected to stock per shift an this was at the overnight grocery position was three pallets a night plus help other people do there area an was expected to have that done in 2 hours the stocking so the cleaning the shelf happens in every six months.  I finally quite there do to how they treated people an what was expected continued to increase per time unit.  The pallet are usually over 3000 pounds.

I agree the way Wal-Mart treats people an than say we can not pay you more than 6usd an hour when they make around 12 million at anyone store in the USA.  A staggering total per store adds to like 56 billion for the Wal-Mart as a whole at least when i worked for them now it is probably more.

PS that is a nice avatar Bob the one with the pyramid, it has my vote if you hold one of those who has the best avatar was going to vote for someone else but they changed there's.


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## crushing (Jun 1, 2007)

Nobody said:


> What do you expect at a place that underpays you!


 
I've worked at a grocery store for minimum wage and no benefits before.  I always worked hard and never considered my low pay to be a reason to not do my job or as an excuse to become a bad employee.


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## CoryKS (Jun 1, 2007)

crushing said:


> I've worked at a grocery store for minimum wage and no benefits before. I always worked hard and never considered my low pay to be a reason to not do my job or as an excuse to become a bad employee.


 
Second that.  Back in '88, as an unskilled new high school graduate, I worked at Meijer for like $3.65.  Plus I had to pay $40 out of my first two paychecks to join the crummy union *spit*.  Someone asked where anything was, we took them to it whether it was our dept. or not.  None of this pointing crap.  And if we were out of shelf stock, we had to go to the back and look through the rest of the stuff to see if we had any more.  Any more, it's (everyone together now) "If you don't see it on the shelf, we're probably out."


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## Carol (Jun 1, 2007)

I third that.   

Then again...maybe that's a reason why neither of us are working for minimum wage anymore


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## Nobody (Jun 1, 2007)

See now i am not saying i did not work hard cause i was one of the fastest on shift an why some people don't cleanup is something i can not answer as far as me and helping you find something if it was out of stock i would go check in the back but i will not carry you to were something is in the store an get it for you, you have to have the nut to get it your dam self an i will admit i just could careless about how you feel about it cause i am not your ******.  I had one person cure me of that he asked for something that had so much sugar an i was standing right next to it he was trying for the pity thing an i just at that point never again went out of my way for anyone, cause the guy started calling me names.  I also don't believe that you should ever spend anytime talking between you an other employees.  Which i don't ever.



I don't posses a sense of care for other's is why even after thirty years in martial arts i don't teach, cause i don't care if you don't get it, it's not my problem.  You have to want something enough to do it yourself.


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## Mark L (Jun 1, 2007)

tellner said:


> The problem with that classic "vote with your feet" capitalist screed is that it runs into problems in the real world.
> 
> First, WalMart has market power. Their presence kills off the competition, particularly small and locally owned businesses. If they are in your area the alternatives become few, marginalized and often completely non-existent.
> 
> ...


Ok, they do all that.  If you don't think voting with your feet works, how would you propose Wal-Mart be brought in line with your version of acceptable business practices?  If the answer involves the government, I'll respectfully decline.  I certainly don't want some federal or state bureaucracy voting for me.  As has been pointed out before, Communism isn't the answer.  

I'll continue to vote with my feet on this and other issues.  Maybe the results aren't as dramatic or even noticed (GM screwed me in 1990 on a vehicle defect, I've personally talked a half a dozen friends and relatives out of GM purchases in the past 17 years, and I still relate my tail to anyone in the new vehicle market,) but it makes me feel better and appeals to my ideological stance.


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## tellner (Jun 1, 2007)

Start by rescinding their special tax goodies, making them obey the law, and otherwise having to follow the same rules as other businesses. That would get rid of some of their artificial advantages.


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## Nobody (Jun 1, 2007)

The fact they set the price that they will buy product from some company is what gets me still. 

I read that valasic(sp?) was forced to sale there pickle at the price that Wal-Mart told them to sale at.

So, i would agree that they ned to be put under the same rules as everybody else.


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## Mark L (Jun 1, 2007)

tellner said:


> Start by rescinding their special tax goodies, making them obey the law, and otherwise having to follow the same rules as other businesses. That would get rid of some of their artificial advantages.


Absolutely!  Everybody should play by the same rules.  So,  is your problem with Wal-Mart or the agencies that are letting them get away with  the above?  

I'm going to disengage now, since I'm starting to feel like I'm defending a company that I don't much care for.  My intent was to defend the notion of free market economy.

Good discussion ...


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## Sukerkin (Jun 1, 2007)

I know that at least some of the posters here know that I used to be an Economist (for my sins) in a past life, so I hope that that small fact will add a little extra weight to what are sure to be unpopular words with a few.

Unregulated, corporate, capitalism is not in the best interests of anyone but the shareholders of the corporation.  

In the short term, it may appear to even the most sceptical that Big Business does well for itself but also helps everyone else in an incidental fashion.  However, that is only true until effective competition has been eliminated.  Then, when the customer base can no longer vote with their feet (because there's no where else to go) the exploitation gets even worse.  The same result can happen earlier if a corporation gets so powerful that it can bend the legislature to its will.

Wal-Mart is probably the most easily pointed to, visible, example of what happens if what amounts to a practical monopoly is permitted to evolve ... but it is not the only example.

We have a similar 'viral' retailer eating the heart out of the household grocery and goods trade over here in Britain ... it's called Tesco.  About the only good thing it does is keep Wal-Mart out (mostly) .  

We have anti-monopolistic laws that have been in place for quite some time but their scope and power has slowly been eroded by the growing power of those very organisations the laws were created to control.

At present, I don't see an effective way out of the cycle as those of us who can afford to support those smaller retailers we'd like to see remain in business are getting fewer (due to the fact that the minimum-wage, service industry, environment has the developed world on a gentle slope down to the bottom).

We do our 'bit' by not shopping at Tesco's unless we have no other choice and actively searching out those that sell locally grown produce.  We pay a premium for that but we can afford it (for now) as I don't work for Ronnie Macs ... yet :scared:.  Many don't have that luxury and so feed the ravening maw of the Beast, ironically making it grow.

To round up, the best natural analogy for the end result of this particular phenomenon is the locust swarm.  It gathers, grows and consumes, swelling ever larger and more potent until there is nothing left for it to feed on.  Then it disappears.  Unfortunately, by the time that happens what is left behind is something of a wasteland.

So, for crying out loud, don't act as apologists for the likes of Wal-mart and, if you are able, don't support the very institution that is seeking to remove your ability to excercise that most vital of economic powers ... choice.

Ex-professional rant over ... slinks off back to keeping the National Grid functioning and dreaming of the time when I used to enjoy working for a living as a curator of ceramics.


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## Blotan Hunka (Jun 1, 2007)

Theres nothing being sold at WallMart (here at least) that I couldnt buy for close to the same price elsewhere. As I said, if I want a middle quality product like a cheap ladder or some paint/auto supply/cheap tools, they have em. When I want something of better quality and dont mind spending a little more for it, theres plenty of other stores around. As for WallMart I rarely go there. The whole Idea that WallMart is the ONLY place to shop just doesnt hold true in my circumstance. I have however been to some rural/isolated spots in the US where the WallMart is "IT". But they love those stores because the small "mom and pop" stores didnt carry what they wanted. And the next closest place to shop was hours away by road.


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## crushing (Jun 1, 2007)

Nobody said:


> The fact they set the price that they will buy product from some company is what gets me still.
> 
> I read that valasic(sp?) was forced to sale there pickle at the price that Wal-Mart told them to sale at.
> 
> So, i would agree that they ned to be put under the same rules as everybody else.


 
Another example:  WalMart owns a significant portion of the retail fishing market and mostly why Zebco and other once 'All American' brand products are no longer made in the USA.

Here is my take on a discussion between two companies a few years ago:

Walmart says, "If you want access to the US retail fishing market you will sell us your Zebco products at these prices.  We other manufacturers lined up that want into this market that are willing to meet these demands."

Zebco replies, "We can't meet those demands without moving our manufacturing to China and replacing the metal parts with plastic ones.  You got us by the 'nads, because to not move our manufacturing and significantly lower our costs to stay in your stores, we go out of business."

Oops, I continued a hijaak of the thread and got away from why that single store was so filthy.   Sorry mods!  :*


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## bluemtn (Jun 1, 2007)

I pretty much avoid Wal- Mart at all costs...  I'l go to the mall for clothing/ nice smelling bath stuff (like Bath and Body Works), shoe's (have to buy them there for bad feet), and grocery?  There are a lot of other choices...  Basically, it's because of where I live-  a lot of the employees don't know the meaning of good customer service, managers are even worse, there is no mall in my county, so the store is always busy.  Used to be I'd wind up going there for electronics, but now there's going to be a GameStop coming in close by-  where you can buy games and movies, and exchange your old one's in...  

It also doesn't help the fact that I used to work at the Wal- Mart...  It's bad when customers complain to you about how YOU (asoc.) are treated, how badly run the place is, and when you go to a completely different grocery store, they tell you that since so many of you are at this new place, that they're shopping here from now on....  

I'm quite certain that Wal- Mart's troubles aren't nationwide, however there are a number of stores that really are just bad.  I feel that the company has over- expanded, and basically each store in an area is divided up in devisions and managed from there.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 1, 2007)

crushing said:


> Another example: WalMart owns a significant portion of the retail fishing market and mostly why Zebco and other once 'All American' brand products are no longer made in the USA.


 
Along that line of conversation, the toy department is huge (which is why Toys R Us is about to sell off many of its stores), and I challenge anyone to go to that very large toy area and find 1 product made in the USA.
Good luck with that.

AoG


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## tellner (Jun 1, 2007)

Ah yes, the "China Price" which WalMart demands. I've seen a number of good product lines - Rubbermaid and Metro Shelving to name just two - come apart on the rocks of Sam Wall's "China Price". Essentially, you have to sell it to them for the same price he could get something similar from China where wages are rock-bottom, safety standards non-existent and officials eminently bribeable. The choice is to stop making it in the US or to cut quality down past the bone. Both of the companies mentioned above were reasonably priced and made in the USA. To try and stay in WalMart's good graces they turned a number of excellent lines into crap and then gave up and had the new crappy lines produced overseas.


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## Nobody (Jun 1, 2007)

Here is what got me about working at wal-mart the people working there could not afford the cost of the stuff there even with help from welfare here it is pretty sad.  They pay so far below what should be possible an this is in America where wal-mart got it's start.


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## RED (Jun 3, 2007)

The local Wally world around here is fairly clean. I shop there and will continue. If the local Krogers would reduce thier prices I would shop there, but they have a union they have to keep happy. Bottom line, I can't find a place that is cheaper to buy groceries at. Miejers, Krogers, or Giant Eagle's prices are rediculous even with there special tracking cards they have. As far as I'm concerned Wal Mart is sticking it to the manufacturers instead of the customers. Sure would be nice if Exxon did that, I probably wouldn't hear anyone complaining about how crappy looking the gas station is. Sure they have some junk Chinese Junk there, but if I can save 50¢ on a bottle of Tide I will go there. Now If I'm in a hurry I will go elsewhere because the lines are crazy at Wal-Mart. 
I don't know about how they treat employees, I'm not one of them. If they aren't making the money they need then they should step up in employment somewhere else.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 3, 2007)

I hate to be a 'naysayer', *Red* but "sticking it to the manufacturers" is not entirely accurate, or at least not in the way you seem to envisage.

A great many of the 'cheap' products sold by such establishments (as I said, Wal-Mart is not alone, just one of the worst) are manufactured outside the USA under conditions that would be illegal in your country.

Who actually suffers from this particularly nihilistic brand of 'free market piracy' are our counterparts in other countries i.e. poor working stiffs whose existences are no different from that of slave labourers.

It is true that by using the enormous lever of their fiscal size, the likes of Wal-Mart can secure lower prices for the consumers they choose to do so for but, as I noted in my post above, this is a short-term gain only.  

If they eliminate all the competition in their locality then prices will soon go back up again - the much vaunted 'free market' does not charge what is _fair_ but what the market will _bear_ i.e. where the maximal profit point is.

From the manufacturers side, the situation is untenable too.  If their profits are driven out of existence by price fixing from a huge buyer such as Wal-Mart, then they go out of business.  

"So what?", you may say.  

If they go out of business then all the people who worked for them are now on welfare.  Not only is that a cost to you in the form of taxation but it is also a cost to your national economy as those people are no longer productive.  

If this happens often enough you end up with an economy that is solely predicated on service industries rather than manufacturing.  This means that you have a weaker economy, the wealth creating potential of which is very limited as a service industry job produces far fewer external ancilliary or supply chain jobs.  I used to have a chart of this 'model' about twenty odd years ago and the difference is staggering .

The long and the short of it is that if the consumer body does not work to prevent this then, in the end, everyone loses out.  Even the shareholders of the corporate maw that created the problem in the first place lose out eventually, as if there's noone with any wealth to exploit then there's no profit.

Anyhow, if I go on much longer people will begin to fall asleep so I'll wrap up {"About time too, windbag!" shouts everyone :lol:}.


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## tellner (Jun 3, 2007)

Sukerkin, I used to be an economist as well. I finally left the field when my wife said "You come home angry every day. Do something else." It was largely because the field had less to do with social sciences than religion. Believe the theory but treat the facts as pathological. The Sacred Market (laaaa!) is Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent and Omnipresent. The only thing that mere humans can do is bow to the Will of the Market. Anything else leads to damnation. Labor is, by definition, lazy and stupid. Capital is, by definition, wise and hard-working. Elaborate pseudo-mathematical models with thousands of linear equations but no theoretical depth - at least not since Samuelson. Severe physics-envy. No concept of contingencies. An assumption that people are rational (hah!). And so on. My adviser told me flat out "Your ideas are probably right, but don't write about them until you have tenure. Otherwise you'll never get a job in the field." 

There was some good stuff, some useful analytical tools and a number of useful insights. But as "science"? If I'd turned in a paper done to economics standards to an engineering manager of physics professor it would have come back with a big red "What is wrong with you, Ellner? Are you on drugs?"


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## Sukerkin (Jun 3, 2007)

I couldn't agree more.

"Rational Expectations Hypothesis" ...
"IS/LM Analyses" ...
"Consumption Functions" ...
"The 'As If' Assumption" ...

and my very favourite

"Ceterus Paribus" ...

All very structured, until you introduce the real world !

The grasp of mathematics I got from my degree has been very useful since, however, tho' much has slipped away such that I can no longer do linear regressions on the fly :lol:.

To be fair to the subject tho', there are certain 'common sense' elements that can be applied at the micro-economic level with a degree of success and some even at the macro economic level.

In the end tho' it is aking to putting up an umbrella and claiming you're controlling the weather .


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 3, 2007)

_As far as I'm concerned Wal Mart is sticking it to the manufacturers instead of the customers._

Until you realize that the manufacturers are made up of people, too.

If I, as a customer, shop WalMart simply because they are cheaper than everyone else and they are cheaper because of the pressure they put on the manufacturer and that pressure causese said manufacturer to have to move operations overseas and you happened to work for that company and you lose your job as a result, well...you can thank me for being such a wise consumer and WalMart for doing such a good job bringing me low prices

From The Wal-Mart You Don't Know



> One way to think of Wal-Mart is as a vast pipeline that gives non-U.S. companies direct access to the American market. "One of the things that limits or slows the growth of imports is the cost of establishing connections and networks," says Paul Krugman, the Princeton University economist. "Wal-Mart is so big and so centralized that it can all at once hook Chinese and other suppliers into its digital system. So--wham!--you have a large switch to overseas sourcing in a period quicker than under the old rules of retailing."
> 
> Steve Dobbins has been bearing the brunt of that switch. He's president and CEO of Carolina Mills, a 75-year-old North Carolina company that supplies thread, yarn, and textile finishing to apparel makers--half of which supply Wal-Mart. Carolina Mills grew steadily until 2000. But in the past three years, as its customers have gone either overseas or out of business, it has shrunk from 17 factories to 7, and from 2,600 employees to 1,200. Dobbins's customers have begun to face imported clothing sold so cheaply to Wal-Mart that they could not compete even if they paid their workers nothing.
> 
> "People ask, 'How can it be bad for things to come into the U.S. cheaply? How can it be bad to have a bargain at Wal-Mart?' Sure, it's held inflation down, and it's great to have bargains," says Dobbins. "But you can't buy anything if you're not employed. *We are shopping ourselves out of jobs.*


 (emphasis mine)


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## Sukerkin (Jun 3, 2007)

Needless to say, I concurr .

However, I fear that we've strayed far from the original topic of a somewhat mucky store to the grander topics of general economic theory and how laissez faire might've been fine in the Victorian era but is economic suicide now.

A new thread perchance?


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 3, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> D.
> 
> However, I fear that we've strayed far from the original topic of a somewhat mucky store to the grander topics of general economic theory and how laissez faire might've been fine in the Victorian era but is economic suicide now.
> 
> A new thread perchance?



Not gonna happen because a) the original post was more a statement then a discussion point so it's hard to keep it on topic and b) some subjects illicit an emotional response hat refuses to sat contained   Wal-Mart is one of them.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 3, 2007)

RED said:


> Bottom line, I can't find a place that is cheaper to buy groceries at. Miejers, Krogers, or Giant Eagle's prices are rediculous even with there special tracking cards they have.


 
I hate to break it to you, but Wal-Mart is tracking your spending habits even harder than those other companies, even without a tracking card.

Read this:


> A week ahead of the storm's landfall, Linda M. Dillman, Wal-Mart's chief information officer, pressed her staff to come up with forecasts based on what had happened when Hurricane Charley struck several weeks earlier. Backed by the trillions of bytes' worth of shopper history that is stored in Wal-Mart's computer network, she felt that the company could "start predicting what's going to happen, instead of waiting for it to happen," as she put it


 
That is from this article: http://www.thepowerhour.com/news/walmart_knows.htm

Has anyone here read "1984" by George Orwell........?


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## Sukerkin (Jun 3, 2007)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Has anyone here read "1984" by George Orwell........?


 
Or indeed the "Foundation series !


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 3, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Or indeed the "Foundation series !



Hari Seldon FTW!!!!


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## shesulsa (Jun 4, 2007)

ArmorOfGod said:


> I hate to break it to you, but Wal-Mart is tracking your spending habits even harder than those other companies, even without a tracking card.
> 
> Read this:
> 
> ...


Wow ... just ... wow ...


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## Nobody (Jun 4, 2007)

The thing is not until this year do you hear the farmers of America beginning to complain about not being able to make it.  Wal_Mart an certain other companies started going to other countries that don't value are system of quality control in food.


In China there is no contained method to stop people from making knock off products though there are a lot of crimes stopped doing this they don't stay in jail so we get thing well below standard.

Not to say anyone in America is sick from this just what you see in the new now days.

Wal-Mart seem to encourage this to the knock off product.PO

1984 by George Orwell is good.


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## shesulsa (Jun 4, 2007)

Nobody said:


> The thing is not until this year do you hear the farmers of America beginning to complain about not being able to make it.


Huh?!?!?  Ever hear of Farm Aid? or the 1987 Agricultural credit act?


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## Nobody (Jun 4, 2007)

I forgot an the ones(farmers) i live near now say it is just plain impossible to make it as a farmer.

The thing that gets me a Chinese Wal-Mart is under a Union, but if one develops here they will fire the managers an slowly close the Wal-Mart or get the people who are in that union to be fired.


Now that you mention it i remember Shesulsa.  As i try to find the 1987 Agricultural Credit Act to read!


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## tellner (Jun 4, 2007)

A lot of that (the farmers' plight) started in the early 1980s (cf. _Altered Harvest_ if you can find a copy). This was about the same time the Hatch Act was hijacked. The explicit goal of the Reagan Administration was to transform the USDA so as to, and I quote, "transfer Federal funds to the largest and most productive farmers". This is what gave us the ADM lysine scandal, subsidies specificall for corn syrup and a switch to giving the really huge ag-chem combines billions while imposing "the discipline of the Market" on the small farmer. 

We made a choice to abandon food security in favor of subsidizing the international conglomerates. People are just starting to realize it and to see how bad a decision that was.


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## Nobody (Jun 4, 2007)

Tellnor, i had totally forgot about that yea, that is what happened an than they started right after that trying to get the restriction lessened on the genetic food effects that has cause the contamination of natural areas like Canada had a thing were they had planted a form of grain had only one life cycle that actually infected even trees an other grass growth to.

You ever hear about where these companies tried to force people in India to plant only certain thing an that they would shut down an destroy there farms if they did not do as these companies said.  Right now i can not remember the name of the company that did this.

Filthy Wal-Mart  not that they did that just though i should stay near topic.


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## tellner (Jun 4, 2007)

Nobody, it gets even worse.

Back in the '70s Pioneer Hi-Breed started selling corn with the Male Sterile Cytoplasm gene. It was the early version of the Terminator seeds of today. In short, the seeds are sterile. You can't save them and grow more. Back then there was a blight which darned near wiped out the US corn crop - it attacked the Male Sterile seeds. Fortunately, they found a wild variety of corn in Mexico which was resistant. The site where they found it is now a parking lot.

Things have changed. Back in the day farmers saved seeds and traded them. Now that's violating the "intellectual property" of the agro-chem companies. You don't actually buy seeds. You buy a license to grow them for one season. Anything else? They come after you with lawsuits and the police. It's bad here, worse in places like India. The whole point is to (and I quote) "Remove all surplus value from the farmer". In some places it's illegal to grow traditional varieties. The companies come in, find the traditional varieties, patent them (!!!!) and then sue or have prosecuted anyone who tries to keep using them.

This isn't wild-eyed conspiracy theory ********. This is absolutely above-board unapologetic and not even hidden plans to make all agriculture the property of a few multinationals and force everyone to do business on their terms or starve. It makes it hell to be a farmer or a consumer. And don't even get me started on the implications for food security and the potential for disaster.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 5, 2007)

*Tellner*, what was the title of the documentary that information came form?  I remember watching it a year or so ago and being shocked that the mega-corps could be allowed to get away with such outright ludicrous behaviour.

Was it "The Future of Food?".


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## Nobody (Jun 5, 2007)

tellner said:


> Nobody, it gets even worse.
> 
> Back in the '70s Pioneer Hi-Breed started selling corn with the Male Sterile Cytoplasm gene. It was the early version of the Terminator seeds of today. In short, the seeds are sterile. You can't save them and grow more. Back then there was a blight which darned near wiped out the US corn crop - it attacked the Male Sterile seeds. Fortunately, they found a wild variety of corn in Mexico which was resistant. The site where they found it is now a parking lot.
> 
> ...


 
Am i understanding you to say i can not grow what i want on my land?  
I was thinking i had the right to grow none patent plants if i want.

If so this totally explains all of the people trying to become Ninja's i.e. me you an everyone on here.:uhyeah:


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## tellner (Jun 5, 2007)

It wasn't a documentary. It was a whole bunch of books and articles for a paper I wrote for a small review article.


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