# De-buffing the Myth of Richard III



## Sukerkin (Feb 3, 2013)

Held in possibly the deepest historical disdain of any English monarch, it has long been the position of scholars that the image of Richard the Third is at best biased and at worst a smear campaign that has endured for centuries.  This is a great little article setting out the edited highlights of the explosive political landscape of the time 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21083005


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 3, 2013)

Shakespeare involved in propaganda! Say it ain't so! LOL

Interesting read. Thanks!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2013)

I like Shakespeare, the last couple of days I have been watching shows about his history, but I know his plays are not historical fact too. Some are taken pretty much directly from the Queens men (of which I believe Shakespeare was one of) who were pretty much traveling propagandist for Queen Elizabeth, or at least that is what I have been lead to believe. I was also looking at some of the history of Richard III Friday night too 

I find the history of Britain fascinating, although admittedly I do not know as much about it as I want to, heck the only date in western civilization I can remember is 1066 and the Battle of Hastings. I also have read Shakespeare, but again, admittedly not as much as I would like too. But since I own pretty much the entire collection I guess I should start

I skimmed the article but you can be assured I will read in it full tomorrow, I will print it out so I can read it. I have a problem reading long articles in the web, it needs to be on paper


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2013)

Richard has long been a hero of mine and here in North Yorkshire they have never believed the lies that abound about him. I don't blame Shakespeare though, I wouldn't fancy trying to champion the Tudor's greatest enemy either! 
Richard was betrayed by The Earl of Nothumberland (a Percy), the only way they could bring him down. The Percys damn them are still going strong up in Northumberland (I had a row with the current Duchess at an MMA fight night she put on, it was done badly but what can you expect from an avaricious and miserable family) and I shall be really annoyed if Pippa Middleton marries the Percy heir.
Richard was certainly one of the better kings England had, certainly far better than the nasty Tudors ( who were responsible ffor so much bloodshed especially in the north of England which Henry the Eighth never forgave for their support for the Plantagenets). Richard has left us and through us to the Americans a valuble legacy.

http://www2.le.ac.uk/projects/greyfriars/myth

_"Richard was particularly keen to uphold the law of the land and to ensure that it was made available to all ranks of society. His first act as king was to summon his judges and command that justice be administered impartially and without prejudice or corruption. In December 1483 he initiated the Court of Requests, a system of legal aid which enabled those who could not afford representation to have their grievances heard._
_At his parliament in January 1484 Richard revised England's rudimentary bond system so that it provided the same protections on arrest that we enjoy today as bail - a measure granting conditional freedom until conviction, designed to allow the accused to protect himself and his family against many widespread abuses such as the unlawful seizure of his property in his absence. Richard also introduced the use of English in many contexts, including his courts of law, where previously French and Latin were the official languages."
_


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't fancy trying to champion the Tudor's greatest enemy either!


 
 Not in Elizabethan England.... nope...uhuh...no way...not a chance...going against anything Tudor then was not a good..or healthy...idea


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## granfire (Feb 3, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not in Elizabethan England.... nope...uhuh...no way...not a chance...going against anything Tudor then was not a good..or healthy...idea



I think going against royalty was - unless you had a big sword and a nice army - never a good idea...



Alas...does this article suggest that the Tudors offed the princes? (poor saps they were...)


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2013)

Perhaps the story of the two princes in the Tower is the biggest lie of all, it would have been easy for Richard to have them spirited away to safety either abroad or somewhere safe in England. I doubt there was ever a need for Richard to kill them, they had been declared illegitimate not just by him, the person who they were a threat too would have been Henry the Seventh who married their sister to ensure he had a 'right' to the title of king. He couldn't have princes wandering around. Being sent to the Tower didn't mean they were locked up,it was also used as a castle to house important guests, it's a very big place. When Henry the Seventh came to power after Richard's death, as is usual he began a campaign of lies about how cruel Richard had been etc etc but he said nothing about the Princes until a year or more after Richard's death, then he accused him of the murder's so it's quite likely that if they were murdered he was the guilty one, the other scenerio is that they had been hidden too well and after a year of looking for them decided to say they were dead, either would have suited him because other than marrying the Princes' sister he had no claim to the throne.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 4, 2013)

Fascinating read. Thanks. I'm from a branch of the Earl of Dondonalds tree so I've always had an interest in the history of the area.


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Fascinating read. Thanks. I'm from a branch of the Earl of Dondonalds tree so I've always had an interest in the history of the area.



They would have been a bit further up in those days and at war with England lol. The Cochrans have a fascinating history all of their own though and the seat still survives today.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 4, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> They would have been a bit further up in those days and at war with England lol. The Cochrans have a fascinating history all of their own though and the seat still survives today.



Oh yes. The Earl of Dundonald is also the Chief of Clan Cochrane and various other sundry titles (you know how the nobility is... always collecting another title).

We're not STILL at war, though, so you and Suk don't need to worry that I'll come steal your cattle.


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2013)

It's just been announced on the one o'clock news that the bones found under the car park are those of Richard. I hope he's now going to be reburied with honours, I shall go certainly to and pay my respects. It should be York Minster, I hope the soft southerners don't keep him. His home was here.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 4, 2013)

Quite agree, *Tez* :nods:.  The man should rest in the region he governed.  Maybe some of the tarnish can be taken off his name too.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 4, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> We're not STILL at war, though, so you and Suk don't need to worry that I'll come steal your cattle.



A branch of my family got kickout for Scotland for that.... and...well...other things......darn that James I :uhyeah:


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> A branch of my family got kickout for Scotland for that.... and...well...other things......darn that James I :uhyeah:



My people got kicked out by Edward the First in 1290 and weren't allowed back into the country until Oliver Cromwell took power 350 years later. Edward btw was known as the 'Hammer of the Scots'


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 4, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> My people got kicked out by Edward the First in 1290 and weren't allowed back into the country until Oliver Cromwell took power 350 years later. Edward btw was known as the 'Hammer of the Scots'



Mine went to Ireland, where they stayed for a while, and then they left because there were an awful lot of people that wanted them dead (Catholics mostly) they then went to Canada....and...people wanted to kill them (again Catholics) so the went to America and stayed, apparently no one wanted to kill them there...that and they started marrying Germans


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Mine went to Ireland, where they stayed for a while, and then they left because there were an awful lot of people that wanted them dead (Catholics mostly) they then went to Canada....and...people wanted to kill them (again Catholics) so the went to America and stayed, apparently no one wanted to kill them there...that and they started marrying Germans



I blame the Tudors, between them all they managed to massacres a great many people from all religions and nationalities.

My daughter wants to start a campaign to have Richard the Third brought home to Middleham. York would be good but Middleham was his home ( it's my daughter's too and she was named for Richard's daughter, not by his wife though, he had a son John too) 
This is where he should go.
http://www.britannia.com/tours/yorksmon/middleham.html

http://www.middlehamonline.com/page4.htm


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 4, 2013)

Finally got to read the entire article, thank you for linking it, I hope that any historical inaccuracies about Richard III are corrected. His vilification was most certainly convenient for Henry VII and the continuation of that was awfully good for the Tudors in General.

Question, is there any truth to the whole soothsayer thing the spur and Richard III's head hitting that spot, after he was dead.


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## aedrasteia (Feb 4, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> Held in possibly the deepest historical disdain of any English monarch, it has long been the position of scholars that the image of Richard the Third is at best biased and at worst a smear campaign that has endured for centuries.  This is a great little article setting out the edited highlights of the explosive political landscape of the time
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21083005




And Josephine Tey:* The Daughter of Time*.  (1951)  Brilliant investigative history disguised as a crime novel.

Vindiction and confirmation for a great writer.  see wikipedia.


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## K-man (Feb 4, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> It's just been announced on the one o'clock news that the bones found under the car park are those of Richard. I hope he's now going to be reburied with honours, I shall go certainly to and pay my respects. It should be York Minster, I hope the soft southerners don't keep him. His home was here.


On the news here it was announced that the remains would be interred at Leicester.      :asian:


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2013)

K-man said:


> On the news here it was announced that the remains would be interred at Leicester. :asian:




I know, that's sad, he should come home to us.


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## granfire (Feb 4, 2013)

still, start the petition.


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## granfire (Feb 4, 2013)

aedrasteia said:


> And Josephine Tey:* The Daughter of Time*.  (1951)  Brilliant investigative history disguised as a crime novel.
> 
> Vindiction and confirmation for a great writer.  see wikipedia.



somebody suggested the book on a different site, regarding ole Richy...


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## Tez3 (Feb 4, 2013)

granfire said:


> somebody suggested the book on a different site, regarding ole Richy...



I enjoy her books, she was a good writer.


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2013)

York Council is to petition the Queen to allow him to be buried in York. He had actually arranged his burial..in York. He was married there and crowned there his wife is buried there. There's going to be a fight about this, it's on the main BBC news as well as the regional bulletins.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9931282.Call_for_King_Richard_III_to_be_buried_in_York/

Petition on here http://www.minsterfm.com/news/local/886024/campaign-for-richard-iii-to-have-york-burial/

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2012/09/richard-iii-should-be-buried-in-the-north/

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/features...hard_III__should_we_claim_him_back_for_York_/


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2013)




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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/...chard-iiis-face-revealed-after-500-years?lite

Kinda creepy, kinda cool, the fellow wasn't half bad looking...
Too bad he was a Plantagenet....


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm curious, did the same vilification of the last ruler of the line happen in other changes in British history like Wessex to Danish back to Wessex to Norman to Plantagenent? Were Edmund Ironside, Hardicanute, Harold II or Empress Matilda vilified or was that just what happened to Richard III and it was possibly more of a Tudor thing?


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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm curious, did the same vilification of the last ruler of the line happen in other changes in British history like Wessex to Danish back to Wessex to Norman to Plantagenent? Were Edmund Ironside, Hardicanute, Harold II or Empress Matilda vilified or was that just what happened to Richard III and it was possibly more of a Tudor thing?



I guess they did not have Shakespeare pinned against them....

But poor Harold did not fair well either.

(BTW, I thought Henry VII was married before he got rid of Richard...or was that an after thought...hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, wanna get hitched and be my queen?)


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2013)

granfire said:


> I guess they did not have Shakespeare pinned against them....
> 
> But poor Harold did not fair well either.
> 
> (BTW, I thought Henry VII was married before he got rid of Richard...or was that an after thought...hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, wanna get hitched and be my queen?)



Richard III died on August 22, 1485 and Henry's reign was from 1485-1509. He married Elizabeth of York, eldest daughter of Edward IV in 1486


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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

I went back to check.
The literature I had in mind must not have been clear about it, but they suggested the claim was largely through wifey...I wonder how she took it, but then again, the alternative might have been a swift end...so living in the palace could be the lesser of two evils...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2013)

granfire said:


> I went back to check.
> The literature I had in mind must not have been clear about it, but they suggested the claim was largely through wifey...I wonder how she took it, but then again, the alternative might have been a swift end...so living in the palace could be the lesser of two evils...



This is pure speculation but it could have been more like

hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen


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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> This is pure speculation but it could have been more like
> 
> hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen



yeah, pretty much the way it could have happened.

Then again, the gals were raised to expect to be bartered off in this fashion....
Hey, I got this daughter, she ain't half ugly looking... I giver her to you and you don't burn my fields, mkay?


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm not sure who you think Henry the Seventh married? He married Elizabeth of York, the sister of the two Princes who were supposedly murdered in the Tower, she was also declared illegitimate. Interestingly, despite being declared illegitimate the oldest Prince was named by Richard as the heir presumptive, something the Tudors were disputing, making it a more likely motive for murder by the Tudors than Richard.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure who you think Henry the Seventh married? He married Elizabeth of York, the sister of the two Princes who were supposedly murdered in the Tower, she was also declared illegitimate. Interestingly, despite being declared illegitimate the oldest Prince was named by Richard as the heir presumptive, something the Tudors were disputing, making it a more likely motive for murder by the Tudors than Richard.



Like I said before..he married Elizabeth of York  But I was under the impression that she was the  eldest daughter of Edward IV


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Like I said before..he married Elizabeth of York  But I was under the impression that she was the eldest daughter of Edward IV



She was and the Princes Edward and Richard were his sons and her brothers.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> She was and the Princes Edward and Richard were his sons and her brothers.




I just looked this up, I do not want to give the impression that I knew it prior and I do not want to give the impression that I am saying it is true since I have not looked for Corroborating evidence based on a desire for expedience of response and trying to learn something about the History of Great Britain (basically corrections welcome)

Elizabeth of York was declared illegitimate by parliament to clear the way for Richard III to become king

However Edward IV was married to Elizabeth Woodville and they had ten legitimate Children, Elizabeth being one of them. yet Parliament declared all ten illegitimate to clear the way for Richard III. Now this may or may not be true since I do know Tudor England was not kind to the Plantagenet line

Richard III parents were Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York and Cecily Neville, Duchess of York

And Richard Plantagenet (Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York) was the son of Richard, Earl of Cambridge, and Anne Mortimer

Richard of York's eldest son was Edward IV so that would make Richard III the uncle of Elizabeth of York and if Edward had living children when he died, and I would assume his eldest son Edward should have been king but he went to the tower, which does not mean prison, I just wanted to add that because most hear &#8220;he went to the tower" and think prison here in the US, or that has been my experience with &#8220;The Tower&#8221;. Although I have heard it said that the Tower was not a place you wanted to be under Henry VIII or Elizabeth I but that comes later and is another story all together.

So my original statement of "hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen" was wrong (well in reality it is likely wrong either way) and it should have been "hey, Sweety, I killed your uncle, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen"


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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure who you think Henry the Seventh married? He married Elizabeth of York, the sister of the two Princes who were supposedly murdered in the Tower, she was also declared illegitimate. Interestingly, despite being declared illegitimate the oldest Prince was named by Richard as the heir presumptive, something the Tudors were disputing, making it a more likely motive for murder by the Tudors than Richard.



hey, cut me slack, I can't remember if I got up this morning... much less what happened 600 years ago!


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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

well, the tower was a castle first, royal residence...

BUT...they always had those little chambers in the basement the content of which was often forgotten...not just in the Tower of London...a rather universal thing....monestaries and convents were another place where you didn't want to be against your wishes...


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I just looked this up, I do not want to give the impression that I knew it prior and I do not want to give the impression that I am saying it is true since I have not looked for Corroborating evidence based on a desire for expedience of response and trying to learn something about the History of Great Britain (basically corrections welcome)
> 
> Elizabeth of York was declared illegitimate by parliament to clear the way for Richard III to become king
> 
> ...




Phew got there in the end! By all contemporay accounts the marriage of Elizabeth and Henry the Seventh was supposed to have actually been a happy one, they had seven living children (more than the heir and spare usually demanded) and when she died he went into deep mourning and spent a fortune on the funeral, he also never remarried when it would have been expedient to, strange but I'm guessing that the Tudors and the Plantagenets were bound together by relationships in common anyway.
Richard the Third's mother Cecily was born just up the road from me at Raby Castle in Durham. One of Elizabeth's sisters married the Duke of Norfolk another family like the Percy's who are still going. it's the premier Dukedom in the country and they are descended form Edward the First, they are also Catholic which causes certain problesm in the aristocracy here and talking of the Catholic Church.....
They have entered the reburial argument now, as Richard had been a Catholic they think it improper for him to be buried in a Church of England Cathedral especially is the service is a Protestant one.


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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

HAHAHAAHHA, yeah...dagnabbit, don't you hate it when management changes unexpectedly! 
So, can we find a catholic chapel in Yorkshire?
(does it really matter? I mean, if the ghost didn't haunt anybody yet...)


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2013)

granfire said:


> well, the tower was a castle first, royal residence...
> 
> BUT...they always had those little chambers in the basement the content of which was often forgotten...not just in the Tower of London...a rather universal thing....monestaries and convents were another place where you didn't want to be against your wishes...




My other half has done Public Duties in the Tower (means he did the guards there) and there are no dungeons, the rooms are all in towers and in the main buildings. It was a proper castle not a prison. It was first used to house prisoners by Henry the Eight, including his wives.

Yes we have plenty of Catholic chapels in Yorkshire including one in Middleham by Richard's castle. We have the ruins of several magnificent abbeys here, destroyed by Henry the Eighth, he also massacred many in the North.
http://suite101.com/article/the-pilgrimage-of-grace-a113234

Robert Aske came from a couple of miles from where I am and his home Aske Hall is still standing though with improvements made over the centuries, one tower has been untouched though since 12th century.


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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> My other half has done Public Duties in the Tower (means he did the guards there) and there are no dungeons, the rooms are all in towers and in the main buildings. It was a proper castle not a prison. It was first used to house prisoners by Henry the Eight, including his wives.
> 
> Yes we have plenty of Catholic chapels in Yorkshire including one in Middleham by Richard's castle. We have the ruins of several magnificent abbeys here, destroyed by Henry the Eighth, he also massacred many in the North.
> http://suite101.com/article/the-pilgrimage-of-grace-a113234
> ...



I think the modern day tower lost a few parts over the centuries. A Gaol or similar hold was usually standard equipment...

but yeah, in those days, walls could close in on you quickly, even in your own house...
and when the king told you to move some place, it was hardly good...be it castle or convent....


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2013)

Only aristocrats were put into the Tower of London so it was never a gruesome prison., a surprising amount of them actually were released thught it's the executions that are most remembered. It's had more and more added to it over the centuries rather than lose anything.
This is a site for Americans! http://www.visitbritainshop.com/usa...e-dungeons-with-an-english-heritage-pass.html

We have several castle around us including Bolton Castle which a friend of my daughters owns, it's been in the family since it was built in the 12th century. Richard would have known them as neighbours and supporters. they suffered under Henry the Eighth though as they supported the Pilgrimage of Grace.

Yu do realis I'm a total fanatic about Richard don't you rofl!


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## granfire (Feb 5, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> Only aristocrats were put into the Tower of London so it was never a gruesome prison., a surprising amount of them actually were released thught it's the executions that are most remembered. It's had more and more added to it over the centuries rather than lose anything.
> This is a site for Americans! http://www.visitbritainshop.com/usa...e-dungeons-with-an-english-heritage-pass.html
> 
> We have several castle around us including Bolton Castle which a friend of my daughters owns, it's been in the family since it was built in the 12th century. Richard would have known them as neighbours and supporters. they suffered under Henry the Eighth though as they supported the Pilgrimage of Grace.
> ...



Fangirling, eh?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 5, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> Phew got there in the end! By all contemporay accounts the marriage of Elizabeth and Henry the Seventh was supposed to have actually been a happy one, they had seven living children (more than the heir and spare usually demanded) and when she died he went into deep mourning and spent a fortune on the funeral, he also never remarried when it would have been expedient to, strange but I'm guessing that the Tudors and the Plantagenets were bound together by relationships in common anyway.
> Richard the Third's mother Cecily was born just up the road from me at Raby Castle in Durham. One of Elizabeth's sisters married the Duke of Norfolk another family like the Percy's who are still going. it's the premier Dukedom in the country and they are descended form Edward the First, they are also Catholic which causes certain problesm in the aristocracy here and talking of the Catholic Church.....
> They have entered the reburial argument now, as Richard had been a Catholic they think it improper for him to be buried in a Church of England Cathedral especially is the service is a Protestant one.



Thank You, the history of Great Britain the visibility of it as well as the traceability of it just amazes me

Also I find it amazing, although not surprising that there are still Catholic vs. Protestant issuesthats is what got my family out of Ireland and Canada other..ummmstuff got them out of Scotland. But regardless lets not tell them my mother-in-laws a Buddhist ok.


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thank You, the history of Great Britain the visibility of it as well as the traceability of it just amazes me
> 
> Also I find it amazing, although not surprising that there are still Catholic vs. Protestant issues&#8230;that&#8217;s is what got my family out of Ireland and Canada&#8230; other..ummm&#8230;stuff got them out of Scotland&#8230;. But regardless let&#8217;s not tell them my mother-in-laws a Buddhist ok.



Ah but as they say in Belfast is she a Catholic Buddhist or a Protestant one?

The religious divide is still a big one, started by Henry the Eighth of course, a cursed Tudor it still blights our country especially in Northern Ireland and to a lesser degree in Scotland. 


Much as I enjoy Shakespeare I've always had sympathy for Richard the Third ever since I could remember. Moving into his 'lands' was a bonus, there's much here that if he came back he'd recognise, changes are very very slow here. heck if the Vikings came back they'd still recognise it, many of the place names are Norse. Richards still remembered here fondly not with disdain. Pubs are named after him. It's about time people realised that history is written by the winners, it's good to remember that always in fact.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but as they say in Belfast is she a Catholic Buddhist or a Protestant one?
> 
> The religious divide is still a big one, started by Henry the Eighth of course, a cursed Tudor it still blights our country especially in Northern Ireland and to a lesser degree in Scotland.



I will have to ask....of course I have to first figure out how to say Catholic and Protestant in Mandarin 



Tez3 said:


> Much as I enjoy Shakespeare I've always had sympathy for Richard the Third ever since I could remember. Moving into his 'lands' was a bonus, there's much here that if he came back he'd recognise, changes are very very slow here. heck if the Vikings came back they'd still recognise it, many of the place names are Norse. Richards still remembered here fondly not with disdain. Pubs are named after him.



That is cool, there is very little here that George Washington would recognize and that is only a little over 200 years ago. 



Tez3 said:


> It's about time people realised that history is written by the winners, it's good to remember that always in fact.



You should see the history of the Little Bighorn (Custer's Last Stand) I was taught when I was in school.... as compared to what is taught today, they are not the same and the latter is by far much more historically accurate


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2013)

One of the things that sticks in my mind is the story of Canute trying to hold the sea back, people laugh at this and think he was an idiot but it seems the true story is very different.
http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/Canute%20Waves.htm

In many places in the UK things don't change, the past is still very much with us. While people don't actually remember Richard the Third of course, it still doesn't seem as if it was that long ago here. It's quite galling of course for some city types that mistakenly think the countryside is a 'nice' place to live ( it isn't it's very hard work) but history is always with us. The locals'  memories are also made up of their ancestors memories as well. Many can go back generations.
http://www.middlehamonline.com/Middleham Castle.htm

On the photo of the street there's a pub the mucky duck (properly  it's the Black Swan lol ) my daughter works in there part time!

Just for Granfire..from the same site http://www.middlehamonline.com/Trooper Middleham.htm


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> One of the things that sticks in my mind is the story of Canute trying to hold the sea back, people laugh at this and think he was an idiot but it seems the true story is very different.
> http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/Canute%20Waves.htm



Not sure how much trouble this will get me in but I beleive my family shows up in England with the Danes and then gets erased from English history with the Tudors.


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## granfire (Feb 6, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> One of the things that sticks in my mind is the story of Canute trying to hold the sea back, people laugh at this and think he was an idiot but it seems the true story is very different.
> http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/Canute%20Waves.htm
> 
> In many places in the UK things don't change, the past is still very much with us. While people don't actually remember Richard the Third of course, it still doesn't seem as if it was that long ago here. It's quite galling of course for some city types that mistakenly think the countryside is a 'nice' place to live ( it isn't it's very hard work) but history is always with us. The locals'  memories are also made up of their ancestors memories as well. Many can go back generations.
> ...



^_^

what a handsome trooper he is, too!
:inlove:


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2013)

The irony of being kicked out is that today I might be related to the House of Brunswick, Hanover Line.many many times removed. Once the family went to the USA they married Germans.some actually Prussians who were related to Fredrick the Great of Prussia (likely direct line to one of his siblings). Now I never looked into it because I seriously doubt I am in line of succession to the English crown and Prussia no longer exists but according to my ex-wife, who was very much into this sort of thing that relates my family to the House of Brunswick via George I


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2013)

A while back the IRA threatened to blow up the Royal Family to end the Crown but a newspaper here showed how there are literally thousands in line to the throne! And that was just in this country, go further afield including America you'd find even more!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_British_throne


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> A while back the IRA threatened to blow up the Royal Family to end the Crown but a newspaper here showed how there are literally thousands in line to the throne! And that was just in this country, go further afield including America you'd find even more!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_British_throne



Well then all I need is the list and then...It's KING XUE!!!!! oh this can't be good


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well then all I need is the list and then...It's KING XUE!!!!! oh this can't be good



As long as you aren't a Catholic! Still banned I'm afraid. I can't see them being too chuffed with me either lol. It's not a bad life being Royal though. It's what you make it lol. You can be the Prince Harry type or Princess Snooty type (Princess Micheal of Kent). 

Try this list!
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_British_throne


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## granfire (Feb 6, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> As long as you aren't a Catholic! Still banned I'm afraid. I can't see them being too chuffed with me either lol. It's not a bad life being Royal though. It's what you make it lol. You can be the Prince Harry type or Princess Snooty type (Princess Micheal of Kent).
> 
> Try this list!
> http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_British_throne



gawd, my eyes are glazing over....


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2013)

granfire said:


> gawd, my eyes are glazing over....




Forget that...all you have to know is King Xue :EG:


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## granfire (Feb 6, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Forget that...all you have to know is King Xue :EG:



of course!

(did you find your name on the list?)

Do these people know they are like 2500th on the list to the throne?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

granfire said:


> of course!
> 
> (did you find your name on the list?)
> 
> Do these people know they are like 2500th on the list to the throne?



Why would I warn them..... not to worry.... I will be higher on the list soon enough....now that I know who the competition is :EG:


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## punisher73 (Feb 7, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> Shakespeare involved in propaganda! Say it ain't so! LOL
> 
> Interesting read. Thanks!



May have been one of the few original things he wrote. LOL


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