# Gun Defenses



## WhiteTiger (Nov 11, 2003)

I have often wondered about the effect of grabbing at the gun hand of an assailant as the gun goes off.  As in Crossing Darts or Uncovering the Flame, controling the weapon in these cases is essential, but can you prepare mentally for the affects of the gun going off as you grab the assailants hand, or the gun itself?  Partiularlly with an automatic which has a slide that will be moving back, the re-coil, the ejecting shell, ect.  If you interupt the slide action there is a good chance the gun will jam, but what damage might this do to your hand, and will that prevent you from doing the follow-up movemetns?

I have heard of individuals which have experimented with the Kenpo gun defenses using blanks.  Can anyone here testify to the effect that these variables might have?


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## Ceicei (Nov 11, 2003)

Could we hope to never have to deal with a gun-wielding assailant? Maybe, but our martial arts training teaches us to prepare ourselves that this possibility may happen.

If your only exposure to a gun is watching a TV show or perhaps hearing a distant gunfire from somewhere, it definitely isn't the same.  A person who has never heard a real gun go off near his head, the loudness can be surprising, not to mention feeling the impact of gun recoil.

Best way to become familiar at first is to go shooting with a gun at your local shooting range.  Many places will rent guns for shooting at the range.  

When at the range, some basic rules/suggestions:  1)  Be sure to wear proper ear protection.  2)  Never point your gun (regardless if its unloaded) at anything you wouldn't want targeted, not even in "play".  3)  Learn to load, reload, and unload. 4)  Always keep your finger off the trigger until you've got the sights lined up and ready to fire.  5) go practice often.  

The practice of shooting will enable you to become accustomed with guns and how they perform, as well as gain a respect for its power.  

Once you understand and respect what guns can do, your practice with using martial arts in gun disarms will be more realistic even if the gun is a rubber one.

Getting a hand caught in the slide while doing a disarm is possible, but that wouldn't be a primary concern.  Neither is being beaned by an empty shell ejection.  Yes, your hand would hurt (primarily the fingers, most likely), but assuming you haven't been shot, you would still be able continue with followup movements even after a hand injury.

You hopefully would be more aware of your surroundings when dealing with a gun, whether its yours or the assailant's.

It isn't a game.

- Ceicei


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## Jmh7331 (Dec 11, 2003)

My best friend and former training partner (before I moved) is a C.O. in NYS.  He is also on the Albany C.E.R.T. team.  They train in a lot of different things, including MA.  Their MA instructor is a Kenpoist.  They do all of the gun attacks with blanks and they work!  My friend said even when they pull back the hammer on a revolver and make it single-action, they are still able to clear the gun before it goes off.  I guess if you are unused to gunfire the noise might rattle you, but if you can stick to your technique they'll work.  I would still just hand over my wallet though!


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## Michael Billings (Dec 11, 2003)

I have done them with a real gun also, a revolver in which I removed the firing pin.  I also could make them work, most of the time ... note, I said "most" of the time (and hopefully we will not get guns pointed at us on a regular basis.)

The thing I noticed, since I had no *BANG*, just a very definitive "CLICK" as the hammer dropped, was that it really, really, really hurts to strike a metal gun with your hand, no matter what part you use.  If you slow it down, you can actually see the barrel pointing at you when the gun goes "CLICK".  That is even more scary.  So we do it with a wooden gun for practice, then move up to the real handgun for experience ... that hopefully none of my student's will have to use.

-Michael


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## Blindside (Dec 11, 2003)

I brought in my Ruger P90 last year for gun techs, during the tech someone dropped the gun on his big toe, and the P90 isn't a light gun.  There was some violation of the "no swearing" studio rule from both me and the guy who dropped the gun.

Fortunately the gun was fine.

I moved to airsoft guns this year.  Still no bang, but at least it shoots a projectile.  

Lamont


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## Disco (Dec 11, 2003)

You made reference to the barrel pointing at you when the gun goes click. What type of disarm is being attempted? Just trying to understand the positioning. Thanks in advance for your reply.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> <snip>[The thing I noticed, since I had no *BANG*, just a very definitive "CLICK" as the hammer dropped, was that it really, really, really hurts to strike a metal gun with your hand, no matter what part you use.  If you slow it down, you can actually see the barrel pointing at you when the gun goes "CLICK".  That is even more scary.  So we do it with a wooden gun for practice, then move up to the real handgun for experience ... that hopefully none of my student's will have to use.
> -Michael [/B]



I'm sorry but I have to call that being irresponsible. Regardless that the firing pin is removed and there are no bullets in the chamber or clip or cylinder... it's not a good idea to point a REAL gun at anyone period!  It's what wooden, rubber, plastic and other FAKE guns are for during MA training. 

(hope that isn't being taken the wrong way) :asian:


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## Disco (Dec 11, 2003)

We train with a real gun that has been decommissioned. The firing pin removed and the barrel filled. The rational for a real gun is two fold. 1) the phycological aspect. 2) The weight and mechanics.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 11, 2003)

I use all the Kenpo gun techniques that we have, and additional ones from various law enforcement cert classes I have attended.  Even when redirecting the barrel, it hurts.  If attacking the wrist on the inside, there is a tendency for the wrist to bend, keeping, or actually directing the barrel in your direction ... ergo, attack the weapon.  This is true in all the gun defense scenarios I have been in regardless of where.

OWWWWW....

-Michael


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## Michael Billings (Dec 11, 2003)

I am probably one of the MOST responsible people you would ever meet.  Your opinion is noted, and in most circumstances I  agree with you.  However, when working with all black belts, or in an advanced training with law enforcement, plastic, wood, etc, just do not really give you the correct reaction that a weapon does. 

I do not recommend this, I do not advocate anyone else trying it.  However, the only irresponsible act I am guilty of, is perhaps posting it here without that disclaimer.

-Michael


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## SenseiBear (Dec 12, 2003)

If you are willing to spend a little money, I would recommend you purchase a blank firing stage replica.  These are not firearms, as they have plugged barrels and cannot fire a live round.

However, they fire 8mm blanks, which are not noticably quieter than a 9mm round, the slides work and they eject hot brass so you can be bitten by and jam the weapon - nothing is closer to the real thing and it is still safe (except to your ears, I don't recommend using it w/o protection often).

You can buy all types, Beretta 92F, Beretta 85, Desert Eagle, Colt 45, Walther PPK, Walther P-38, 315 Automatic, as well as a range of blank firing revolvers.

You can purchase such things online at: http://www.westernstageprops.com/

SB


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## Rob Broad (Dec 12, 2003)

I would rather hand a burn, or ripped flesh on my hand or even having my hand shot, than taking a shot in critical mass.  That is just my ay of looking at it.  I have looked down the barrel of a weapon pointed at me, and it has a psychological affect on you that unless you have faced it in before you have no idea how you will react.

I have used a starter pistol in that past and even though I was successful many times it was the unsuccessful atempts that makes me never want to face a live weapon again.


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## Doc (Dec 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MACaver _
> *I'm sorry but I have to call that being irresponsible. Regardless that the firing pin is removed and there are no bullets in the chamber or clip or cylinder... it's not a good idea to point a REAL gun at anyone period!  It's what wooden, rubber, plastic and other FAKE guns are for during MA training.
> 
> (hope that isn't being taken the wrong way) :asian: *



We use real guns (empty) once the techniques are learned well. That includes rifles and shotguns. Nothing prepares you for the "feel" of the real thing like, well, the real thing. Everyone is familiar with weapons and we have 3 rangemasters (not including myself). No big deal when you know what you're doing.


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## Shiatsu (Dec 13, 2003)

If you don't use the real thing it is kind of like practicing football with drill team dancers.:asian:


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 14, 2003)

http://www.themartialist.com/1203/gundisarm.htm


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## MA-Caver (Dec 14, 2003)

Those techniques are very good alibet one of them being stupid as you admitted (attempting to spin around with the weapon pointed at your back) unless you are quick enough to surprise the attacker before he can respond to your "counter-move".  That your attacker isn't prepared for it. 
I've said this before, the effectiveness of any of those (and other) techniques are only as effective as the person utilizing them. If they're capable and willing to do them. 
A gun is one of the most frightening objects to be confronted with. I've had them pointed mere inches from my face and from behind my head and at me from a distance. Truly I am amazed and thankful that I'm still here to talk about it.  By all rights and purposes I shouldn't be here but I am... because of the skills and training I've learned and recieved over the years. Also because I'm willing to use them even at great risk to my own person. 
The mind set. It doesn't have to be there all the time. But it's important to know when to have it. 
It avails nothing to have skills and not able to use them when the time comes. 
Boy scout mottos hold true here. Be prepared! 

:asian:


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MACaver _
> Those techniques are very good alibet one of them being stupid as you admitted (attempting to spin around with the weapon pointed at your back) unless you are quick enough to surprise the attacker before he can respond to your "counter-move".



We have proven consistently that when a handgun is placed in the back, a spinning move is quite succesful. We have practiced as realistically as humanly possible without live ammo utilizing real weapons, and including with "paintball guns."

What you consider as "stupid" is far from  it with an understanding of the mechanics necessary, and the psycology involved in the technique. My students include; U.S. Marshal's, D.E.A., F.B.I., L.A.P.D. L.A.S.O, U.S.M.C., etc. who would disagree vehemently as I do with your assessment.
In my experience, this is simply wrong.

I do not make my comments to disrespect you, however the reality of street confrontations are serious and such comments may preclude others from examining such options that may ultimately save their lives. 

"Street knowledge" is not easily obtained, and very few are actually experts in the reality of street confrontations and it cannot be learned in most schools, despite whatever "martial arts" training some "instructors" may have. I would take another look. Afterall, when a gun is in your back, the only other alternative is to "give up," and that is not acceptable to my students, and hopefully not to others as well.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 14, 2003)

That's me demonstrating the move, and I still consider it wildly risky.  It's better than _nothing_, but I'd say I still have a very good chance of being shot.


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *
> 
> 
> ...



From your posted demo, I'd have to say, I agree with you. I wish I could help you but it is our policy to not discuss gun disarms taught to law enforcement with anyone we do not know personally, and specifically not on the internet. However, I would give this technique a bit more thought. Like I said, we are quite successful. In fact, this particular gun disarm is more succesful than almost any other technique.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 14, 2003)

> From your posted demo, I'd have to say, I agree with you. I wish I could help you but it is our policy to not discuss gun disarms taught to law enforcement with anyone we do not know personally, and specifically not on the internet. However, I would give this technique a bit more thought. Like I said, we are quite successful. In fact, this particular gun disarm is more succesful than almost any other technique.



That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."  

About the time anyone says, "Gosh, you're going to have to take my word for it  -- the techniques _we_ do work really well, but only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge," one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap.  There are no mystical martial arts secrets, there are no moves that have not been done before, and there's no law enforcement officer alive who wouldn't want a private citizen to know a purely defensive move if it really was that effective.

Please don't waste any more of our time trying to tell us that the circular movements you practice have some magical mystery tour quality to them that makes them infinitely superior to everyone else's, but that we'll have to just smile and nod because you can't explain, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, salute-and-go-home.  It's tiresome and silly.


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."
> 
> About the time anyone says, "Gosh, you're going to have to take my word for it  -- the techniques we do work really well, but only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge," one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap.  There are no mystical martial arts secrets, there are no moves that have not been done before, and there's no law enforcement officer alive who wouldn't want a private citizen to know a purely defensive move if it really was that effective.
> ...



I'm sorry sir, what did you say your law enforcement credentials were? What "industry' are you speaking of?  I've got 30 years street time in. Collectively my students have hundreds of years of law enforcement time on the street and I still regulary teach in public law enforcement academies. You are entitled to your opinion sir, but my credentials are well established.

You don't have to take my advice, but others may want to, and - Since you want to go there, where did you say you learned your technique again?

I also find the fact that I don't discuss such techniques in public unusual among my law enforcement colleagues.

I can assure you sir, I am not "full of crap" as you stated. Also take note I never suggested you were. There are many here who might suggest I may know what I'm talking about. After all I did tell you about my students and how we tested our techniques. You may choose to not believe me, but don't let the fact you can't  make it work or don't believe me discourage others.

Since you have no problem placing your "martialist" technique on the internet, perhaps you could explain it to us. Unlike you, maybe someone will give you some pointers to improve your own ineffectual execution  in a respectful manner. I see by your profile you're a writer. Writing about surviving on the street, and doing it aren't the same. I'm a cop who lives it everyday intead of writing about it.

For the record, anything I say with regard to techniques, I can back it up. There are more than a few that will tell you that. "Full of crap," I'm not. I suggest you "salute and go home" and write about something you know something about.


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## Rainman (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."
> 
> About the time anyone says, "Gosh, you're going to have to take my word for it  -- the techniques we do work really well, but only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge," one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap.  There are no mystical martial arts secrets, there are no moves that have not been done before, and there's no law enforcement officer alive who wouldn't want a private citizen to know a purely defensive move if it really was that effective.
> ...



Your basics are poor.  Your centerline has not been moved off the line of fire enough or at all, and you have not even begun to control the angle of versatility.  Your left hand is out of position and could be creating a bind thus slowing your rotation.  Pictures say one thousand words- open your mind and don't get bogged down with absolutes they are self and system defeating.   

Everyone has material reserved for their inner circle-   My opinion is he gave you a hint, you are not his student or friend therefore he owes you zip.  It is up to you to investigate and he gave you a starting point.   I gave you a few more- O one more important one is your defending arm in upsidedown.


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## Disco (Dec 14, 2003)

That's me demonstrating the move, and I still consider it wildly risky. It's better than nothing, but I'd say I still have a very good chance of being shot.

You have more than a very good chance, you can make book on it that you will get shot.

I have no idea who showed you that move and as a student you accepted it, but whoever it was should be ashamed, very ashamed....... As a student of the arts and as a man of the pen, you are not without intellect. How you could not see or question the non-validity of that move, is beyond my comprehension. If you really study what has been hinted at, "Your basics are poor. Your centerline has not been moved off the line of fire enough or at all, and you have not even begun to control the angle of versatility. Your left hand is out of position and could be creating a bind thus slowing your rotation." you should be able to correct the flaws. I say this not to be condescending, but rather to be informative. I detest seeing anyone performing a technique that will clearly not work and in the process get themselves possibly killed. 

Respectfully :asian:


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 14, 2003)

> How you could not see or question the non-validity of that move,



I suggest you reread the thread.  I _did_ question it.  That was the whole _point_.  Considering that the particular sequence was prefaced with the notion that it was _not_ advisable, I'd say the point was made and then _remade_.  Still, any amount of criticism -- however pointless or misdirected -- would have been welcome compared to the booga-booga-inner-circle-leo-only-take-my-word-for-it nonsense.

For that matter, any gun defense is going to be an act of urgency -- not something in which you'll have time to fine-tune your form.  Much depends on the attacker's actions and reflexes, which are totally outside your control.  They are random elements.

You can read a lot into photo sequences -- too much, in fact.  I'll never tell someone, however, simply to take my word for it because it's secret.

If anyone here would like to write an article for _The Martialist_ explaining their take on the techniques they would advise for such a hold-up, I would welcome it.   Of course, to do so would require more than simply winking.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 14, 2003)

*The December Issue's Gun Counter Article*http://www.themartialist.com/1203/gundisarm.htm, in context.

Follow-up submissions (taken via e-mail) are welcome.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 14, 2003)

... as your weight shift onto the right, and execute the same technique.  May as well try it, most people pivot on the balls of their feetm most of the time.  This just changes the parameters and the speed with which you pivot off-line.

-Michael


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 14, 2003)

That's a useful suggestion.  (Footwork in Wing Chun, for example, always involves moving and rotating on the heels, not the balls of the feet.)  So much in something like this depends on your speed and ferocity relative to the attacker's.  That's what makes firearms counters dangerous and somewhat random.

Rereading my earlier posts I think I was a bit heavy handed initially, but I'll stand by the spirit of my post.  Appeals to authority and martial arts secrets mean nothing to me;  I value open discussion above all.  That is the root of my contempt for "take my word for it" responses.


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

With any gun technique, it comes down to:

Can you sieze, control and redirect the weapon from being aimed at you before the wielder squeezes the trigger?

The more time you need to do to achieve this, the greater your chances of being shot.

With the barrel pressed against your back, you can plan on losing a lung or worse if you aren't fast enough.

There are statistics for the amount of time you have if the person really intends to shoot you or not. I've heard of 10 seconds. Meaning, if they haven't shot you in the first 10 seconds, your odds go up in defending yourself becasue they want something from you first without shooting you if necessary.

So back to the first question, are you going to do something, or wait out those 10 seconds? The one thing to your advantage, is YOU decide when to take action before they squeeze the trigger. They have to react to YOUR actions by keeping the barrel aimed at you and squeezing the trigger.

There's a lot of conditions that decide on how fast they are at squeezing off a round in reaction to your movement. To say one technique will/won't work is valid only to a point. There are some good techniques out there and everyone is working towards some "Best-practices".

For the case shown above, I also practice a twisting motion to get out of the way, but the handwork is different.


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## Doc (Dec 14, 2003)

Regarding the previous, I never said for anyone to "take my word for it." What I suggested is a closer examination of the methodology and some constructive criticism from others willing to share their perspective, which they did. For that I was essentially called a "liar" among other names and ridiculed. 

And as I figured he still hasn't presented his vast amount of experience in this area. He has chosen to skirt, or even hint at what his background expertise or credentials might be for his critical opinion. More than likely he's not a martial artist, but as he admits, he's just a writer.

Sir you are right. There are no "secrets." There is only what you know and what you don't know. Now that you have exposed yourself while advertising your net magazine, we know what category you fit in.


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## Sigung86 (Dec 14, 2003)

Dear "Sharp Phil",

I don't come here very often.  People like yourself are pretty much the reason.  Your proffer of a lame excuse for your behavior is typical... Beat on someone then back peddle.  Not even very martial in spirit or application.

I was unable to post earlier, and may have taken care of that issue.  I would like to say to you, and perhaps the folks who saw fit to put you in the position of moderator.  "Too Bad"... If you continue as you do, I'm sure you will manage to drive away more folks than you attract.

I have known Doctor Chapél for a number of years, and will attest to his veracity and expertise both as a martial artist and an instructor of the highest order.  No nudge-nudge wink-wink, smartassedness is needed on his part.

Before you get your knickers in a twist about me.  A word.  I am a 6th Dan (that would be 6th degree to you, in all probability) in Tracy Kenpo.  Have had quite a bit of training and ranking in a number of other styles of Chinese art.  I have been both at and in the martial arts (Kenpo mainly) for 40+ years.  Many of my students have carried the art that I have taught them into the military and more than a few have been asked to and have taught what thehy carried to the folks now known as Special Operations Forces (probably, for you, that would be SEALs, Delta Force, Marine Fast Company, and Force Recon Marines, Special Air Service etc. etc. etc.).   Two of my students are currently in Iraq, and one of my female Black Belts is leaving for Iraq in January.  Each of them carries a level of training that will help them to survive.  I do not present techniques that are so lame I find I have to apologize for posting pictures.

Point being that if you were not so arrogant, or is that pompous?  You might find that a number of good people on this thread have offered you insights that you chose to ignore.  Were you to come to my school or meet me in public and talk to me face-to-face the way you off-handedly slapped on Doctor Chapél I would, in all likelihood, laugh at you, call you a sissy boy and send you packing.

A number of people have offered you valid and very useful information, as I said before.  I don't understand why they would continue an association with a forum that would let someone of your apparent ilk, be a moderator.  They apparently have more patience for purposeful pomposity, arrogance and sheer dumbazzz, than I.

It is my hope that you will have a voluntary rectoencephalectomy, and check out the world of real.  Otherwise, those in the know,  like Doc, Rainman, and several other very knowledgeable will not only not share at you, but will often laugh at you to your face.    For example ===> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Most sincerely, and disrespectfully,

Daniel M. Farmer
RokuDan
Tracy International


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> I don't understand why anyone would continue an association with a forum that would let someone of your apparent ilk, Sharp Phil, be a moderator.
> Most sincerely, and disrespectfully,
> Dan Farmer
> *



Dan, the reason is..... he pays for space to produce his "OWN FORUM" so he can be a legend in his own mind and his own Mod, nothing to do with the MT Staff or personel.  

I had not looked at this thread until now.. Man, I have never lost respect for an individual so fast as with this guy (Sharp Phil!)

I will recommend his forum to any enemies that I may encounter.

As for me, well, I don't see anything of use to discuss or utilize any of "HIS" potential advice.....LOL with him and his attitude towards others.

:rofl:

p.s.  I hope he enjoys reading his own magazine, since I won't be recomending it to anyone!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

Wow. One misunderstanding and all the "flamers" come out.

As is typical as of late.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> Wow. One misunderstanding and all the "flamers" come out.  As is typical as of late.
> *



Excccuuuuuuuuuse Me?


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

Well, in Phil's defense, I've read this thread and I also know a bit of his writing style from his site and I think he got a little more than his share of bashing from the "heavyweights." He has a provocative writing style but hasn't personally attacked anyone.

I can't write nearly as clearly so he doesn't need me to come to his defense, but the thread has completely gone off-topic with more people coming on who hadn't commented earlier only to band together and attack his credibility.

I think we as martial artists have some professional responsibility to post respectfully. It's good to disagree, but to start citing your experience as better than someone else's (I don't consider law enforcement comparable, BTW) and then go on the offensive attacking personal character really turns this board into something similar to Yahoo.

It's very possible we may all meet at some point or another at a seminar or camp, and wouldn't it be better to know that we're all on the same side?


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## Disco (Dec 14, 2003)

As you stated; I did question it. That was the whole point. Considering that the particular sequence was prefaced with the notion that it was not advisable.

If it was not advisable, what was the rational for presenting it in the first place?


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> He has a provocative writing style but hasn't personally attacked anyone.
> *



Well, I beg to differ.  What do you call comments by Mr. Sharp Phil such as.........

"That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."" referring to Mr. Chape'l's comments. If that isn't disrespectful, I don't know what is. 

or.....

"one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap"

This I suppose is a good way to talk to an obvious Kenpo Senior that is well more known and respected than some unknown Phil dude?  Right!

or the sarcastic.....
"Only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge" 



> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> I can't write nearly as clearly so he doesn't need me to come to his defense.
> *



Agreed, as you say, he speaks clearly what he wants to say.  Is he so stupid not to expect responses?   What ever the attitude .... so the response.



> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> People are coming on who hadn't commented earlier only to band together and attack his credibility.
> *



All triggered by The masterful Sharp Phil's words.



> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> I think we as martial artists have some professional responsibility to post respectfully. It's good to disagree.
> *



Does he know or realize that?  Especially with a string such as.....

"Please don't waste any more of our time trying to tell us that the circular movements you practice have some magical mystery tour quality to them that makes them infinitely superior to everyone else's, but that we'll have to just smile and nod because you can't explain, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, salute-and-go-home. It's tiresome and silly".

Personally I don't care for his style, writing or otherwise.

thanks


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## MisterMike (Dec 14, 2003)

Well, I think that by that point, the discussion was pretty far gone. But I found the secret squirrel comments ammusing actually. It's remeniscent of schools I have seen that dangle a carrot of "hidden secrets."

I'm not even going to go into the order of who said what, because anyone can read the posts and see when everyone piled on.

OH, and I hope my flamer comment didnt come off as homophobic or anything. I meant it as the geek term for what happens on threads like this.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> I found the secret squirrel comments ammusing ac*



Actually, so did I, but the rest of his commentary could have been worded much nicer even if he disagreed with someone, what he posted was unnecessary, and attacking (IMHO).


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## Doc (Dec 15, 2003)

I think Mr. Conaster said it well. If I may paraphrase; "If you take a shot at someone, don't be surprised when they shoot back."


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## Michael Billings (Dec 15, 2003)

Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-Michael Billings
-MT Moderator-


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 15, 2003)

> If it was not advisable, what was the rational for presenting it in the first place?



You can learn as much from what you shouldn't do as from what you should.  That's one of the reasons I publish opposing viewpoints in _The Martialist_ when they're offered.  I'm a pretty fair guy (though I'll admit to being provocative;  it comes with the territory).  

Even the outraged folks who've gotten so bent out of shape over my disdain for their response(s) would be given a fair shot if they chose to submit something.  That's how I operate.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 15, 2003)

I want to hit on 1 point here:



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *I was unable to post earlier, and may have taken care of that issue.  I would like to say to you, and perhaps the folks who saw fit to put you in the position of moderator.  "Too Bad"... If you continue as you do, I'm sure you will manage to drive away more folks than you attract.
> ...
> I don't understand why they would continue an association with a forum that would let someone of your apparent ilk, be a moderator.
> ...



Dan (and to anyone else confused by how things work here)

Phil Elmore (Sharp Phil) is a "Hosted Forum Moderator".  What that means is that he is moderating a forum that we (MartialTalk) host for him. As Dennis stated "he pays for space to produce his "OWN FORUM"".  That forum is "The Martialist Forum".  If you would take a moment to review the guidelines in that area, you will see that anyone may rent space here to do so, and that the "hosted forum mods" do not have authority outside their paid-for areas.

We have at this time 1 additional Hosted Forum, that being the WMAA forum in the FMA area.  As this site depends on the support and $ of its members to continue to operate, I greatly appreciate both of these groups for the financial support.  We have over 2000 members, but less than 5% are supporters.  Rather than maintain software and deal with a mega learning curve, you can setup your own area here, starting at $99/year.  We supply software, space, bandwidth and tech support. You determine what goes there, within a few guidelines (IE must be legal in NYS)  For more information, contact me or see the "Hosted Forum" section off the main forum page.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 15, 2003)

I had no idea what a "Hosted Forum" was, outside of the MT one we had to close down due to lack of $$ support.

I think it is extremely fair for Phil to offer space in the Martialist for counterpoint to his article.  This seems like a good opportunity for those who disagreed with his posts.  I tended to just scratch my head and go ... whoops, as guns are tricky, deadly and scary, both to defend against, and to post about.  There is always controversy.

-Michael


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## howardr (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *That's what we call in this industry, "Faintly ridiculous."
> 
> About the time anyone says, "Gosh, you're going to have to take my word for it  -- the techniques we do work really well, but only Secret Squirrels with Ultra Grade Decoder Ring Clearance are allowed this Incredibly Secret Knowledge," one can safely dismiss the speaker as full of crap.  There are no mystical martial arts secrets, there are no moves that have not been done before, and there's no law enforcement officer alive who wouldn't want a private citizen to know a purely defensive move if it really was that effective.
> ...



Mr. Elmore, why so defensive? Where did Dr. Chapel say anything about "mystical secrets?" And, you really think there's no law enforcement officer alive that wouldn't want a certain class of private citizens, oh, such as say suspected felons, to know what you term "purely defensive moves?" Huh. That's interesting because that's just the sort of situation that a law enforcement officer might be concerned about. In that scenario, your "purely defensive move" then quickly becomes a struggle for the officer's life.

Further, where did anyone say that the circular movements they practice were "magical" or were imbued with "mystical" properties? You are really reading into something that just wasn't said. I ask you to check YOUR premises. Maybe then you'll discover the source of your knee-jerk hostility.

Howard


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## howardr (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *You can learn as much from what you shouldn't do as from what you should.  That's one of the reasons I publish opposing viewpoints in The Martialist when they're offered.  I'm a pretty fair guy (though I'll admit to being provocative;  it comes with the territory).
> 
> Even the outraged folks who've gotten so bent out of shape over my disdain for their response(s) would be given a fair shot if they chose to submit something.  That's how I operate. *



Smells like some back-peddling and damage control to me.

To be accurate, you didn't exactly say you were showing what you shouldn't do in the photo sequence. Rather, you stated: "That's me demonstrating the move, and I still consider it wildly risky. It's better than nothing, but I'd say I still have a very good chance of being shot." In your post you emphasize the word "nothing," which I took to mean that while you didn't think much of the technique, you thought it was the best option from a set of bad solutions.

At least admit what you stated. Or be big enough to fess up that your initial statement was actually unclear and ambiguous.

Howard


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 15, 2003)

There's no "back peddling," whatever that may be, nor "back pedaling," either.  

I believe in discussing things _substantively_ and have nothing but contempt for responses that fall along the lines of, "Well, see, I know this super cool thing, but it's a secret, so take my word for it."  This isn't a question of credentials, nor is it particularly important that some of the responses to this thread consist primarily of the whining of those who seem threatened by the fact that some of us actually put time and effort into creating things of value.  

To put that another way, you can either talk _around_ or _about_ a topic.  I don't believe in talking around it.  I ridiculed a post I found ridiculous.  That's not being "defensive," though I'll grant you that it's not being terribly polite.  Too many people are afraid to characterize absurdity for what it is.



> To be accurate, you didn't exactly say you were showing what you shouldn't do in the photo sequence.



Pay attention, kid.  My first post to this thread was a link to the article in _The Martialist_, in which I call the technique "something very stupid."  It doesn't get much more "exactly" than that.


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## Disco (Dec 15, 2003)

Mr. Phil, upon review of your gun disarm posting on your site, we are in agreement with the overall rational of the factors and recourses available under the given situations. I would however offer a suggestion on the physical aspects of the disarms shown. If you have not had the opportunity to train, or at the very least observe either Hapkido or Jujitsu disarms, I would strongly urge you to do so. This is meant only to afford you the option to advance your chances for survival, if you should ever find yourself in this situation in real life.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 15, 2003)

Try not to read too much into a single set of photos.

Once I started my own publication I finally understood the griping of various MA webmasters and even print publication editors, who were forever going on about the ridiculous over-analysis of their photos.  People seem to think that a single shot affords them all manner of imagined insight into the doings, goings, learnings, and understandings of the person or people in the shot, when in fact a single photo is just that.

As for Hapkido, I have a great deal of respect for it thanks to the work of people like Alain Burrese, but I am a Wing Chun practitioner (among other things).  I have two teachers at present, one of whom has (among other rankings) a black belt in Judo.  My Wing Chun instructor spent years in White Crane before discovering Wing Chun.  All in all, my "cup runneth over" where instruction is concerned.


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## howardr (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *I believe in discussing things substantively and have nothing but contempt for responses that fall along the lines of, "Well, see, I know this super cool thing, but it's a secret, so take my word for it."  This isn't a question of credentials, nor is it particularly important that some of the responses to this thread consist primarily of the whining of those who seem threatened by the fact that some of us actually put time and effort into creating things of value.
> 
> To put that another way, you can either talk around or about a topic.  I don't believe in talking around it.  I ridiculed a post I found ridiculous.  That's not being "defensive," though I'll grant you that it's not being terribly polite.  Too many people are afraid to characterize absurdity for what it is.
> ...



Calm down, Sparky! You're quite excitable, but perhaps you could render some assistance. You see I just took a peek at your article but wasn't quite sure what an "extremely _risk_ torso twist is." However, I would certainly agree that the move is _risky_. Also, I'd figure a professional writer, such as you self-evidently are, would be certain to punctuate all of his sentences on his own website (as opposed to this rather informal discussion board where such priggishness only makes the source appear an intellectual tight ***). So, you might want to look over your gun disarm article once more before the grammar snobs take you to task.

Now, you're what's called in the industry: an Internet warrior. And, at this point that's about the best I can say about you. When you so immaturely toss off serious evaluations like "absurd," "ridiculous," and "nothing but contempt," for what would be for a rational person at most slight peccadillos, you make the same mistake that Leftists do when they label everything as "racist," when it clearly is not warranted.

Finally, you'll obviously never admit as much, but you clearly retreat and massage your own errors so that you're rarely wrong. Add a sprinkling of psychologizing and your Internet alter-ego is born.


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 15, 2003)

Hell, and I didn't even get ON this thread previously...and if that isn't shocking enough, I pretty much agree with, "Rainman."

There is of course a Klassic Kenpo technique for just this attack, Broken Rod. And as was already mentioned, the tech works a lot better when you DON'T drop your hands, and when you pivot to get the centerline and if possible the whole body away from the redirected gun barrel.

Perhaps more to the point at this point, the point is that kenpo generally teaches (or should be) that if you're sure the guy's gonna shoot, go for it. It's bound to be better than taking the round in the spine. If you're not sure, give the guy your wallet, your keys, your pants, anything but your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor...and even the last two are somewhat disposable in such a situation.

ALL of the gun disarms are to be used, I was taught, only in a true emergency--which, in this context, can best be defined as a situation in which you are within about a half a second of trying to absorb a bullet. Then, why not? But they all involve risk, considerable risk, as do the knife techniques.


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 15, 2003)

> Calm down, Sparky! You're quite excitable, but perhaps you could render some assistance. You see I just took a peek at your article but wasn't quite sure what an "extremely risk torso twist is." However, I would certainly agree that the move is risky. Also, I'd figure a professional writer, such as you self-evidently are, would be certain to punctuate all of his sentences on his own website (as opposed to this rather informal discussion board where such priggishness only makes the source appear an intellectual tight ***). So, you might want to look over your gun disarm article once more before the grammar snobs take you to task.



Is your world normally thrown into confusion by the appearance of a single typo?  I'll tell you what, though, Skippy -- you start your own monthly magazine and we'll go issue for issue counting errors.  I'll even spot you a couple to get you started.  Certainly a gigantic intellect such as you can bang out a few sample issues in no time at all...?



> Now, you're what's called in the industry: an Internet warrior.



Actually, I'd be more correctly termed a "pundit."  Now, you, as a passive-aggressive child who can only lash out at people while creating nothing of substance himself, might more accurately fit the "internet warrior" profile.



> And, at this point that's about the best I can say about you. When you so immaturely toss off serious evaluations like "absurd," "ridiculous,"



A "serious evaluation" that is absurd still deserves to be ridiculed.



> ...and "nothing but contempt," for what would be for a rational person at most slight peccadillos



That last part doesn't even make structural sense.



> ...you make the same mistake that Leftists do when they label everything as "racist," when it clearly is not warranted.



Yep, that's me.  Old left-wing Phil, they call me.



> Finally, you'll obviously never admit as much, but you clearly retreat and massage your own errors so that you're rarely wrong.



Actually, when I'm wrong, I admit it.  I seldom retreat from anything;  that's one of the reasons I continue to publish _The Martialist_ despite the childish nonsense I get from self-styled critics like you -- people who seem to have so very much to say but so precious little with which to support it.



> Add a sprinkling of psychologizing and your Internet alter-ego is born.



For it to be an "alter ego" I'd have to be someone other than me.

A monthly publication like _The Martialist_ requires a great deal of effort and energy.  There are times when, faced with the mewling and petulant outrage of children like you, I wonder why I work so hard at it.  It is, after all, much easier to complain than to create.  Fortunately, almost every time one of these little flare-ups occurs, I start receiving e-mails from people who actually grasp what is going on -- and what the entire point of the _self-defense industry_ happens to be.

When you figure that out, you'll be on your way to making something of yourself.


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## arnisador (Dec 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by howardr _
> *would be certain to punctuate all of his sentences on his own website (as opposed to this rather informal discussion board where such priggishness only makes the source appear an intellectual tight ***). *



Hey, my ears are ringing!


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## arnisador (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm locking this thread. It may be reopened at a later time.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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