# SKH not in traditional?



## Fallen Ninja (Oct 13, 2005)

I was wondering why Shihan Hayes would not be in the traditional section? I'm new to this site and everytime I see the ninjutsu section I always want to ask. As far as I know he is still a Shihan in the Bujinkan. :idunno: 

As long as I have trained in the Bujinkan I have never heard of Shihan Hayes not being in the Bujinkan. Can someone explain?


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## Cryozombie (Oct 13, 2005)

Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> I was wondering why Shihan Hayes would not be in the traditional section? I'm new to this site and everytime I see the ninjutsu section I always want to ask. As far as I know he is still a Shihan in the Bujinkan. :idunno:
> 
> As long as I have trained in the Bujinkan I have never heard of Shihan Hayes not being in the Bujinkan. Can someone explain?


Hayes broke away from the Bujinkan to form QUEST.

The controversy over his current involvement in the Bujinkan aside (Although if you care I had one of the Shihan tell me to my face, (not *i heard from someone who heard from someone*) that Hatsumi said that Bujinkan members were NOT to train with Hayes or the Quest center) Martial Talk decided that since by Hayes own admission he changed the curriculum, and modernized it, we as a board decided that while Hayes has traditional roots, Quest is not a traditional form of ninjutsu. Its a "Modern" art that is recognized and accepted as having a "real" background because of Hayes training lineage.

We had a real good "Ninja war" over what was real and what was made up on the board for a while, and we had separated the Modern from the Traditional, and after the fallout Hayes stuff was about all that was left.  Not to say there are not others (Like Ken Harding, who is no longer buj, but still Legit) but for all intents and purposes Hayes rates a "special" section.


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## Don Roley (Oct 14, 2005)

I think it should be pointed out that the 'traditional' ninjutsu section is for arts that were created in Japan. Hayes trained in Japan, but his art of Toshindo is the product of an American.

Some of us have tried to find a way to make a forum where he could be talked about alongside the Bujinkan and other arts in Japan. But it comes down to what _clear, objective standard_ could be used to keep him in and every guy who had a single seminar with a Bujinkan instructor before starting his own ninjutsu style out.

This arrangement seems to be working out the best. You should have seen this place a year or so ago. Now it is quiet and helpfull instead of constant warfare between fakes and those that actually train in a art known in Japan. To be a subject here, you have to prove that your art started in Japan. The fakes can't do that and have not tried joining up since the change. Hayes has his own section and malcontents from the Bujinkan can't go over there and tell them that what they do is wrong. It may be different from what we do in the Bujinkan, but for Toshindo it is correct and they have a right to discuss it without harassment.


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## Satt (Oct 14, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You should have seen this place a year or so ago.


Yeah, as soon as I saw this thread I was like oh no, here we go again. But it's just better to have the two areas separated.


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## Elizium (Oct 19, 2005)

I always thought that Soke never said for students within the kan should not train with Hayes.  Most of that has come from the new breed of black belts in recent years.  Unless he has said it recently after Hayes and Soke Hatsumi meeting last December in the Hombu.


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## Don Roley (Oct 19, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> I always thought that Soke never said for students within the kan should not train with Hayes.  Most of that has come from the new breed of black belts in recent years.  Unless he has said it recently after Hayes and Soke Hatsumi meeting last December in the Hombu.



Umm.. I have to say that Japanese are not big on public outbursts or anything like that. They are more likely to just ignore you and make you feel unwelcome until you go away. Some folks are good at taking advantage of that fact. Heck, the author of "Angry White Pajamas" talks about how people in Japan don't really scream at you or toss you out, they just make it very easy for you to fade away and leave.

So you have to think about that when you hear about Hayes training for a single session and not being singled out at all and instead largely ignored.


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## Elizium (Oct 19, 2005)

But did not Soke Hatsumi and Hayes leave and Hayes was invited to Soke Hatsumi's house?  There was that rumour going around also at the time as well.


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## Don Roley (Oct 19, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> But did not Soke Hatsumi and Hayes leave and Hayes was invited to Soke Hatsumi's house?  There was that rumour going around also at the time as well.



I never heard that story here in Japan. I would treat it as an internet rumor until you get some sort of proof.


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## Bester (Oct 19, 2005)

I remember those "wars" on here. Very ugly. The Neo's couldn't get their "morphers" to work.

I've got no problems with Hayes.  He's doing his own thing, and I don't recall hearing him disrespecting his past. But, he's not doing traditional ninjutsu.


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## Don Roley (Oct 20, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> He's doing his own thing, and I don't recall hearing him disrespecting his past. But, he's not doing traditional ninjutsu.



And if we all could agree on the fact that by 'traditional' you mean 'the way it is being practiced in Japan' we can all remain happy. That is, if one side can refrain from saying that their's is the new and improved version for modern combat. _That_ caused a lot of problems here as well.


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## Gina Jordan (Oct 20, 2005)

I don't want to start a flame war here, but it is kind of interesting that James Norris, who is a personal student of An Shu Stephen K Hayes, and works at the Dayton Quest Centre (Stephen K Hayes hombu Dojo) has just visited Japan and been awarded his 5th Dan. You can see this at http://www.skhquest.com/Articles/whatsnew.aspx

Gina Jordan


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## Cryozombie (Oct 20, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> I don't want to start a flame war here, but it is kind of interesting that James Norris, who is a personal student of An Shu Stephen K Hayes, and works at the Dayton Quest Centre (Stephen K Hayes hombu Dojo) has just visited Japan and been awarded his 5th Dan. You can see this at http://www.skhquest.com/Articles/whatsnew.aspx
> 
> Gina Jordan


 Thats not that unusual. But Toshindo is not Bujinkan/genbukan/jinekan, despite its roots, any more than say Bujinkan is Chinese Kenpo despite the Chinese Kenpo roots in the 'Kan.

 Hayes has, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION "created" if you will his own art by changing things his own way... that in and of itself means its no longer the traditional art it started out as, but a modern one... the main reason that Hayes is not in the Traditonal section, but due to his pat training and the fact he does not try to lie about it still acknowlaged here as "not a fraud".

That is the reason, as staff, we chose to separate his art from the Traditional.


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## Deaf (Oct 20, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> I don't want to start a flame war here, but it is kind of interesting that James Norris, who is a personal student of An Shu Stephen K Hayes, and works at the Dayton Quest Centre (Stephen K Hayes hombu Dojo) has just visited Japan and been awarded his 5th Dan. You can see this at http://www.skhquest.com/Articles/whatsnew.aspx
> Gina Jordan



I was once told that "things happen for a reason"  so my thoughts on this... who cares because it is not going to affect my training one way or the other.  The only thing that I "would" be concern about that it might confuse those who do not know any better in regards to whether ToShinDo rank is recognized within the Bujinkan which of course it isn't.

So James passed the Godan test.  Well good for him and it will be interesting to see what he does with it.  I wish him the best.

~Deaf~


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## Gina Jordan (Oct 20, 2005)

Deaf

Well Hatsumi must have recognised something in the To-Shin Do system to have ranked James to 5th Dan, or did he?

Really deaf, you must try to get a better understanding of To-Shin Do than simply viewing it as a different style to Bujinkan. You must look a lot deeper than what you are looking now.

Gina Jordan


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## Dale Seago (Oct 20, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Well Hatsumi must have recognised something in the To-Shin Do system to have ranked James to 5th Dan, or did he?



It's more likely that James trains in SKH's Bujinkan martial arts program, which he runs separately from To Shin  Do (though I seem to recall that students must train in TSD up to a certain level before being able to do that), and he probably held a Bujinkan 4th-dan rank before he took the test.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 20, 2005)

In regards to James he must be someone who holds rank in
To Shin do and Bujinkan! Therefore as Dale said he probably
had a Bujinkan 4th Dan but even if he did not he now has a
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu 5th Dan and is now a Bujinkan Shidoshi!
Where he goes from there or what he does with his rank is
entirely up to him! Hopefully he will teach, train and learn and
be an exemplary martial artist! Best wishes to him! As for whether
or not Hatsumi recognizes To Shin Do or not I have know idea!
I do know that in the past he made Stephen Hayes a highly
ranked Bujinkan member!

Brian R. VanCise


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## Don Roley (Oct 20, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Really deaf, you must try to get a better understanding of To-Shin Do than simply viewing it as a different style to Bujinkan. You must look a lot deeper than what you are looking now.




Whoah! No need to get nasty!

But I have to ask this, since you have said that others are not looking deeper than they should. You have made a few erronous statements about the Bujinkan (such as Hatsumi used to forbid his students from giving the name of the kata) and laid out some pretty big assumptions without proof.

So, how often have you talked with Hatsumi or the Japanese Shihan? Honestly, if you want to say that others need to study more about Toshindo to make comparisons with Bujinkan, don't you think you should learn more than you obviously do about the Bujinkan?

The simple fact is that Hayes has always done his own thing. The godai elemental system that he came up with, the pushing of his Mikkyo beliefs, etc. Now with Toshindo he is taking complete charge of where his art will go- and he does not need to ask Hatsumi what to do with Toshindo. Since Toshindo was started in America by an American, it just can't be put in the same area devoted to Japanese arts.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 20, 2005)

Deaf, correct me if I am wrong but you were a Student of Mr. Hayes for quite a long time, no?


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## Deaf (Oct 21, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Deaf
> 
> Well Hatsumi must have recognised something in the To-Shin Do system to have ranked James to 5th Dan, or did he?
> 
> ...



Like I said Gina... Everything happens for a reason.  I do not try to assume why Hatsumi Sensei gave James the Godan test nor does it matter to me.  I know that James has been training a long time with Hayes even before Hayes developed his ToShinDo Art.  How do I know this?  Because I was there!  

I don't need to get a better understanding of ToShinDo and I do view it as a totally seperate style to Bujinkan because I started my journey with Hayes ( before ToShinDo and then another few years within the ToShinDo umbrella ) and now have been training within the Bujinkan for the past 6 to 7 years now.  So don't go telling me that I need a better understanding of ToShinDo and that I have to look a lot deeper than what I am looking at now!  

I don't understand WHY you decided to "bite" on my previous response because all I said was

1. Things happen for a reason so why worry about it.
2. James took the Godan test and past!  Great for him, and it will be interesting to see what he does with the future.
3. That the scenario can cause confusion for some people into thinking ToShinDo rank is the same as Bujinkan rank which it is NOT!

In no way did I 'attack' anything about the entire post.

~Deaf~


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## Gina Jordan (Oct 21, 2005)

Deaf

I'm a bit confused.

You are saying you don't need to understand To-Shin Do better because you view it as a seperate style. But then go on to say that you believe students must get to black belt in To-Shin Do before they can study Bujinkan martial arts.
So what do you think that is taught in To-Shin Do?

I will agree that To-Shin Do does not follow the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki as with the Bujinkan, or I should say as some teachers in the Bujinkan do. Thats if of course there is a standard Bujinkan curriculum, which I don't think there is.

Hell I even went to one Dojo in England that was teaching Judo techniques in the Bujinkan curriculum. Brian McCarthy was in the Bujinkan for years and his sylabus which at one point was out to buy, obviously contained karate techniques. 

Does To-Shin Do contain
Musha Dori, Muso Dori, Ura Gyaku, Omote Gyaku, Taki Ori etc.
The answer is yes.

The difference if there is one from Bujinkan and To-Shin Do is that To-Shin Do actually teaches people to be able to use this stuff under pressure, and in my own opinion (and I know Don Roley is going to jump on me for saying this, and I'm sure he will say that i'm not in Japan, and if I was I would know that what I was saying was untrue but) the standard Bujinkan training does not. In fact it seems to teach little more than technique.

I will even go one stage further and state that many of todays Bujinkan practitioners have become no more than kata collectors. 

Gina Jordan


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## Don Roley (Oct 21, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> You are saying you don't need to understand To-Shin Do better because you view it as a seperate style. But then go on to say that you believe students must get to black belt in To-Shin Do before they can study Bujinkan martial arts.
> So what do you think that is taught in To-Shin Do?



Obviously, something other than Bujinkan if they need to seperate by belt rank when they can learn it like that.



> The difference if there is one from Bujinkan and To-Shin Do is that To-Shin Do actually teaches people to be able to use this stuff under pressure, and in my own opinion (and I know Don Roley is going to jump on me for saying this, and I'm sure he will say that i'm not in Japan, and if I was I would know that what I was saying was untrue but) the standard Bujinkan training does not.



You get what you asked for.  :supcool: 

Of course, it differs from dojo to dojo. But in terms of learning to use things under pressure, I am quite satisfied with what I learn here in Japan and have been urging people to try to follow the Japanese way of doing things more closely.



> Hell I even went to one Dojo in England that was teaching Judo techniques in the Bujinkan curriculum. Brian McCarthy was in the Bujinkan for years and his sylabus which at one point was out to buy, obviously contained karate techniques.



Something that I have a problem with and have been screaming about recently in another thread. Some may be adding on Judo and such, but the Japanese do not and I feel that people should not do so.  And IIRC, Norm Smithers started out under Brian McCarthy and is not very thrilled with what he learned now. It is a good thing that McCarthy left the Bujinkan IMO.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 21, 2005)

It will always come down to the individual being able to use
their training that will determine if someone can be effective!
I have met martial artists from all types of systems, some I 
believe would be incredibly formidable in a personal protection
situation and others, well they probably would never be able to
use what they know! Bujinkan specifically, I have met many 
people that I thought were fantastic and had know doubt that
they could make their stuff work, so to speak. I have also met
others who probably would never be able to make their stuff
work! The To Shin Do practitioners that I know have left for
the Bujinkan but they all seem like great people and several
of them would fall into the first category with a few falling into
the second! The point is, no martial system Bujinkan, Genbukan,
Jinekan, To Shin Do, Karate, Judo, Modern Arnis, BJJ, Krav Maga,
Instinctive Response Training, Silat, Boxing, Wrestling, Tai Chi,etc can
guarantee that what they teach will always work! The *real world*
just doesn't work that way!

Brian R. VanCise


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## Deaf (Oct 21, 2005)

Gina Jordan said:
			
		

> Deaf
> 
> I'm a bit confused.
> 
> ...



Ummm where in the world did I mentioned that I believed that students must get to black belt in ToShinDo before they can study Bujinkan?   

I never said that nor given any indication that was my thought so now I'm the one confused!

What do I think is taught in ToShinDo... Well that's easy, ToShinDo!



> Does To-Shin Do contain
> Musha Dori, Muso Dori, Ura Gyaku, Omote Gyaku, Taki Ori etc.
> The answer is yes.
> 
> ...



Believe it or not... there are OTHER martial arts that teach musha dori, muso dor, ura gyaku, omote gyaku and taki ori etc.  So I fail to see your point on this!  It doesn't make ToShinDo special or anything if that is what you are trying to emphasize.

That is a generalized observation that is your opinion however I have to disagree with you to an extent.  Sure, each dojo is going to be different and that is with ANY martial art.  Some teachers are better than others.  So this is a moot argument at best.

However I do happen to train at a Bujinkan Dojo which has people regularly going to Japan and training and let me tell you, these people KNOW how to use this stuff under pressure.  And in turn, they regularly apply the pressure back at us in the dojo.  

You are stating that ToShinDo actually teaches people how to perform under pressure... How so?  I'm sure you will see that if you go to other ToShinDo dojos this might not be the case.  See the first paragraph I wrote.


Teaching people to drop back into a "distilled" ( skh terminology for you ) ichi monji no kamae and yelling "WHOA" is not my idea of being able to "perform under pressure"!

Quite frankly your attitude sucks and I can see that you are pretty much opinionated about ToShinDo and Bujinkan so lets just end this discussion before it turns a bit ugly.

~Deaf~


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