# What CMA Most Resembles Fast Taiji?



## chi-ca (Dec 1, 2004)

My yang-style class spends a fair amount of time on the martial application of each move and I find that while I get the concepts I stink in the actual usage. So, my question is...if you want to improve on the martial side, what CMA most resembles fast taiji? 

Chi-ca


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## 7starmantis (Dec 1, 2004)

Well, I think the best answer would be taiji 
You dont need to look to another style or system to increase your application skill. Do you guys play push hands much? That is a great way to increase your skill in the actual application or usage of your taiji. Get with a partner you trust, and begin *very* slow. I mean ridiculously slow. Focus on your taiji principles and basically play your form while doing puch hands, you'll get there, it does take some time however.

7sm


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## chi-ca (Dec 1, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Well, I think the best answer would be taiji
> You dont need to look to another style or system to increase your application skill. Do you guys play push hands much? That is a great way to increase your skill in the actual application or usage of your taiji. Get with a partner you trust, and begin *very* slow. I mean ridiculously slow. Focus on your taiji principles and basically play your form while doing puch hands, you'll get there, it does take some time however.
> 
> 7sm


The school does push hands but I won't get to it until I move up a couple of levels -- about a year from now.  In the mean time I don't have anyone outside of class to practice with (the kids just don't want to play "hitting the tiger" any more...).  So I'm thinking that adding another style for a year or so might give me better reflexes.

Chi-ca


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## Fumanchu (Dec 3, 2004)

Chi-ca, 

Do you do other exercises that build speed and reaction? Slow push hands is great for learning the path ways of movement - but still you need to work at fast reaction starting from a non contact situation.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 3, 2004)

Chi-ca, you will find many ideas and ways of thinking on this subject. I personally dont believe in doing extensive training in non-contact drills as your push hands will progress in speed as your skill does, both moving at the same speed and timing. I'm very strong about starting very slow. This allows your skill to progress correctly as you increase your speed. You learn the true movement and how each movement feels slow, then begin to increase your skill and speed.

 If you are interested in adding another system just to get the fast movements, there are many CMA systems that relate well with tai chi. Talk to your tai chi instructor about this and see if he/she has some advice. Maybe even train your tai chi form at a faster speed for your speed training. 

 7sm


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## chi-ca (Dec 3, 2004)

Fumanchu said:
			
		

> Chi-ca,
> 
> Do you do other exercises that build speed and reaction? Slow push hands is great for learning the path ways of movement - but still you need to work at fast reaction starting from a non contact situation.


Nope, no other exercises.  7sm suggested working on the taiji form more quickly.  Given that I don't have a practice partner, this may be my best option.  Though I'm still interested in knowing if any other CMA resembles taiji in fast motion.


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## pete (Dec 3, 2004)

chi-ca,

i'd refrain from speeding up your tai chi form. i do not believe performing the form simply at a faster speed will help you to accomplish your goals, and may infact instill bad habits. however, you may want to practice each of the individual applications as self defense techniques at "combat speed".  this can be done with or without a partner, or even with a heavy bag... but a live partner is always best! 

pete


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## Dronak (Dec 4, 2004)

Well, IIRC Chen style tai chi include at least some fast movements in its forms.  So that would be something that is at least partially tai chi in fast motion.  I don't have enough knowledge to tell you if there's some other art that resembles fast tai chi though.

I think one of the main reasons for practicing tai chi slowly is so that it's easier for your instructor to make corrections which should make it easier for you to learn what's right and wrong about how you're practicing.  You obviously couldn't go that slowly if you were going to use it in a real fight though.  So I think you have to speed it up at some point if you want to be able to use it in a real fight.  One of my tai chi books probably says something about this, too, practicing tai chi both slowly and quickly, but I don't remember off hand.  If you've got a good base and have learned how everything is supposed to work in slow motion, I think it's safe to start speeding it up.  You'll probably want to do it gradually so that you can make sure you're maintaining the proper positions and motions as you go.  But yeah, if you want to use tai chi at full fight speed, you should probably just practice it at fast speeds.  Hopefully someone else with more knowledge and experience could say more about how you'd incoporate such practice into your regular training.


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## brothershaw (Dec 4, 2004)

I know I am going against the grain but, I think for someone with no prior martial experience taking tai chi, should learn some rudimentarys of some other art.
  Why? Because if the school the person goes to does not do at least minimal sparring the person may never get any understanding of footwork, timing, hitting and kicking the heavy bag etc.( making contact). Yes I know tai chi is not kickboxing but fighting is fighting whether you use jujutsu, tai chi, or muy thai. 
     I am not knocking tai chi just saying some schools may leave some things out, so a person looking for the martial aspects dont get the full package, ( true in most martial arts). 
     Perhaps the internal styles are better suited for people who already have had some training, who can better afford to just focus on the internal aspects.?


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## 7starmantis (Dec 4, 2004)

I think its a mistake to assume "internal" arts hold no "outer" principles or that internal arts focus solely on internal principles without application. I know your not knocking tai chi, but if you have to learn something else to be efficient in tai chi, whats the point? Tai Chi wouldn't be a very good system in that case, in my opinion.

7sm


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## Dronak (Dec 4, 2004)

I seem to remember reading that internal and external arts all reach the same goal in the very end, they just get there by different means.  Tai chi as an internal art would begin with the internal aspects and eventually lead up to things like push hands and other combat training which is more external.  The external arts do the reverse, starting with a lot of that punching, kicking, sparring, and combat training, eventually leading up to practicing the internal aspects.  It could still be useful to practice an external art if you're studying tai chi, but I'm not sure it's a necessity or that it even has to be done first.  If you've found a good school and teacher, nothing should be left out although some things may be postponed until later.


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## brothershaw (Dec 5, 2004)

I am not downing the internal at all. Or saying they dont teach good stuff. What I am saying is that some students of various arts dont get enough exposure to a moving opponent or how to put together combinations of movements etc. THey may also due to a lack of exposure have a slower up take or grasp of applications to movements. A person with prior experience will pick these things up quickly, although they still have train new body mechanics. Just as with the other chinese martial arts if these things arent covered a person can do the best forms, and talk a good game about body mechanics but have little to no success in "real" application.
  Once again I love kung fu and hope to be at least a good practioner at some point.
   For the internal styles at least at least having a small working knowledge of fighting or sparring might be helpful just to make a person starting from scratch get a bigger picture. 
     I have often read that one if not the first teacjer of bagua only taught it to people who already had a degree of proficieny in other arts( with the exception of one student). 
    Perhaps the degree of complexity of the internal arts make them unsuitable as a starting point for people with no experience? (and I do not claim to be more worthy to learn them than anybody else.)


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## Buddy (Dec 5, 2004)

I have said this elsewhere on this forum but what needs be remembered is that the way the body moves (shenfa) in IMA is very different than it moves in external styles. Obviously I don't know chica's teacher or training methods, but in my estimation it takes about three years to become relatively proficient in any martial endeavor. While to fully express actual internal boxing principles will take longer, that number seems right to be able to protect ones self.


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## RHD (Dec 10, 2004)

Buddy said:
			
		

> I have said this elsewhere on this forum but what needs be remembered is that the way the body moves (shenfa) in IMA is very different than it moves in external styles. Obviously I don't know chica's teacher or training methods, but in my estimation it takes about three years to become relatively proficient in any martial endeavor. While to fully express actual internal boxing principles will take longer, that number seems right to be able to protect ones self.



I'm not an "IMA" practitioner (though I challenge anyone to show me how my Hung Ga isn't internal as well).  However, I've been around a fair amount of internal styles training and internal practitioners.  One thing that amazes me to this day, expecially in regard to Tai Chi (Chuan?) is that a lot...Not all of, but a lot of internal practitioners seem to think that by doing thier solo forms and some push hands they will somehow be able to fight and/or defend themselves effectively because of the internal nature of their system.  To this I say BULLHOCKY!!!  To that end I agree with Buddy here that it should take bout three years to become relatively proficient.  BUT, in order for that to happen, there better be some training methodolgy to instill that ability.  Solo forms and push hands type exercises alone will not do that.  And don't even get me started on conditioning...

Mike


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## 7starmantis (Dec 10, 2004)

Very true, very true!

7sm


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