# Taekwondo - the public image - why it sucks!



## Markku P (Aug 4, 2011)

Taekwondo - the public image - why it sucks! ( this was in my blog )

 I think I have written about this before but I feel so strongly about it that I have to continue with it! First of all Taekwondo and its public image: how much of the public knows about us? What do they know about us? If they know about us then what is our message or so called "brand image".

 When I look at World federations or the Kukkiwon's web site, I almost feel I have to vomit! Who is behind those sites? What is their message and purpose? Have they hired some 12 year old kid to create them? (OK, this was actually a joke, 12 year old kids today can do much better work with web-sites!) 

 The Kukkiwon and WTF are two of the most important Taekwondo organizations right now and many people are visiting their web-sites to get more information about Taekwondo.

 ...and what will they find?

 We have to have a clear identity within our message. Who are we targeting and what are our strengths?

 Who is training in Taekwondo and what kind of people do we want to attract?

 For me the answer is simple. Id like to get more children and their parents to get involved. Id like to get intelligent adults who are looking for something for the body and soul (like Yoga) or some who are looking for something that will challenge them physically and mentally.

 My problem is how we representing our art in the mass media. No intelligent person likes to see someone getting kick in the head or someone getting hurt, for that matter. That is how we show our art...Where are the smiling kids who are having a good time with their training, or pictures of adults who are training and showing 100% focus in their eyes.

 Perhaps we should learn something from the field of yoga! They have a great image right now. They show that yoga is spiritual training, and at the same time great physical training...and what are we showing? Kicks to the head?

 We should really define what wed like to be and put that message out! Everything starts from the high level; the world taekwondo federation is our main organization so they should act first. Then Kukkiwon should start to follow their own rules and keep the standard high for black belts (this is easier to say than do), this is the first step. Clean up our own act and then we are ready to show up in public.

 Of course we get the biggest media coverage from competitions so we should clean our act there. The fighters, coaches and leaders should be held more accountable for the ways they act. Winning or losing, it doesn't matter; everyone should show a high level of respect and good behavior towards others. (Just remember that fighter from Cuba in the Olympic games 2008).

 Perhaps I am just dreaming about all of this but like someone once said... "I have a dream..."


 Yours,

 Markku P.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 4, 2011)

Ah yes, the public image. I can never decide who to blame for that. The KKW having poor marketing, or everyone stereotyping the MA based on the WTF Sparring Form.

Ill start by saying, that although personally i prefer the ITF Form; For reasons im sure you would all approve of, and which is written in my Blog so i dont have to repeat myself; i have a great deal of Respect for the KKW Form. And it is truly tragic that it is hard to take it seriously, if you either A: Introduce yourself to it via the Internet, or B: Fall in with the Stereotype.

I shall say no more; You covered the rest.


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## thelegendxp (Aug 4, 2011)

Yeah, as far as the public(general public, as opposed to martial arts communities) image is concerned, the media is definitely the biggest contributor. However, I personally do not think that there is no quick fix to this because of the general image of "Asian martial arts" portrayed by many media. Kung Fu, Karate, Taekwondo, etc. are simply treated as very similar entities (similar to how chinese, japanese, and koreans are treated as "Asians") and the subsequent portrayal of the martial arts as a very "asian-ninja-kickass" thing causes the general public to possess a set image towards almost all martial arts. The image of Asians being socially awkward, being a nerd, or cheap still stands strong in core media such as Hollywood production movies. Though I value that there are people out there that are concerned, I do think it is a tough thing to deal with. Still, I also "have a dream" that the media portrayal of today will start to make shift!


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## thelegendxp (Aug 4, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ah yes, the public image. I can never decide who to blame for that. The KKW having poor marketing, or everyone stereotyping the MA based on the WTF Sparring Form.
> 
> Ill start by saying, that although personally i prefer the ITF Form; For reasons im sure you would all approve of, and which is written in my Blog so i dont have to repeat myself; i have a great deal of Respect for the KKW Form. And it is truly tragic that it is hard to take it seriously, if you either A: Introduce yourself to it via the Internet, or B: Fall in with the Stereotype.
> 
> I shall say no more; You covered the rest.



I get that a lot. I transferred from a KKW to an ITF recently, and I get so much **** with everything that I say or do. I think they almost demoted me to a white belt for using the instep instead of ball of my foot doing a 90 degree roundhouse. I still take pride in that I get to work as an ambassador of KKW TKD!


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## Cyriacus (Aug 4, 2011)

thelegendxp said:


> I get that a lot. I transferred from a KKW to an ITF recently, and I get so much **** with everything that I say or do. I think they almost demoted me to a white belt for using the instep instead of ball of my foot doing a 90 degree roundhouse. I still take pride in that I get to work as an ambassador of KKW TKD!


XD - There are Instep Kicks, but they are stored seperately. The way you phrased that is quite amusing 

If im not mistaken, the Patterns are quite different as well. Im sure that when, or when you do, get to do some Patterns, it was or will be, great fun to hear their response


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 5, 2011)

First of all the general public's image - the general public usually do not know the difference between karate, tkd, kung fu, kenpo, jujitsu etc etc, they just think they are different asian sounding names for the same thing. I was 30 when I started, and even as an adult who had some previous karate experience I thought they were basically all the same. Even most of my non-martial arts mates when they first found out I had a black belt in tkd started with all the "ooh, I wouldnt mess with you" comments. I think the real image problem comes from other martial artists, which used to concern me. These days it doesnt concern me because I realised 99% of all martial artists who are negative towards tkd have never actually done tkd, they have just googled it. I had a martial artist ask me recently "why is there no punching in tkd?", I asked how long they had done tkd for and they replied "Ive never done it". Enough said.


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## msmitht (Aug 5, 2011)

Watch "The Foot Fist Way". For most in the United States, this is the kind of TKD they have been exposed to. That, combined with the ATA and that crap they show on ESPN2 at night, is a major reason why the general public does not like TKD.
Oh yeah, there is also this thing called MMA............


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 5, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Watch "The Foot Fist Way". For most in the United States, this is the kind of TKD they have been exposed to. That, combined with the ATA and that crap they show on ESPN2 at night, is a major reason why the general public does not like TKD.
> Oh yeah, there is also this thing called MMA............


I agree about foot fist way, but the same could also be said for many other types of martial arts, Ive seen many karate clubs, for instance, that resemble that movie. I dont know about MMA, with their ruleset no MA by itself will be successful. You hear people say that no tkdist has been successful in MMA, but if you went and fought MMA rules and 'only' knew muay thai or 'only' knew bjj you would get destroyed, you basically need to cover all ranges, which means combining several ma's, so the same could be said for most arts in regards to mma.


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## Tez3 (Aug 5, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree about foot fist way, but the same could also be said for many other types of martial arts, Ive seen many karate clubs, for instance, that resemble that movie. I dont know about MMA, with their ruleset no MA by itself will be successful. You hear people say that no tkdist has been successful in MMA, but if you went and fought MMA rules and 'only' knew muay thai or 'only' knew bjj you would get destroyed, you basically need to cover all ranges, which means combining several ma's, so the same could be said for most arts in regards to mma.



You are correct of course about no one art being any good in MMA ( I won't state the obvious lol about it being MIXED martial arts) but a good many TKD people are successful in MMA because of their standup including punches.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> You are correct of course about no one art being any good in MMA ( I won't state the obvious lol about it being MIXED martial arts) but a good many TKD people are successful in MMA because of their standup including punches.



OK, first I am not a TKD practition (nor did I ever play one in a movie ). But I did study it for over a year, albeit some 45+ years ago. But probably all MA suffer from image problems to an extent. TKD may have its own branding problems, but so do other MA.

As mentioned above, it probably comes from competition and the media coverage of that. Competition rules, whatever you say about the reasons good or bad, are not MA rules per se. They are competition rules to prevent injuries. MA are after all, generally about causing injury or death. Competitions are not. 

I don't know the history of the current TKD competition rules. When I studied TKD, the idea was to always use maximum power, and always seek a new maximum. That was a thing Jhoon Goo Rhee said over and over in training. However, it was also understood that the punch or kick had to be controlled, so in competition it could and had to be, stopped just short of contact. 

Perhaps that wasn't considered realistic by some teachers or students. We never had a problem understanding when to contact and when not to. It had to do with the way we were taught. But I think the point is that under the current rules, it still doesn't "look" that realistic in competitions. The public doesn't see what is taught in class, if they see or hear about anything, it is competitions. Hearing about world organizations argueing with each other can't be good for an MA's image either when the public hears about it.

As to MMA, I guess I am preaching to the choir, but they have rules too. Any other MA practitioner that has to leave his MA's teaching, and enter a MMA competition is going to be at a big disadvantage. He doesn't know the rules, and doesn't know how to use many other things that are allowed in MMA. It would be the same if a TKD practioner (or most other MA), had to fight a boxer. If you have to fight by a boxer's rules, you may go down pretty quickly. If you are allowed to use all your skills, the boxer won't have a chance. 

Just my two cents.


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## Manny (Aug 5, 2011)

For me the resposible for the bad attention TKD is having are many factors, one is the media, you see the olimpics and only see two people weaqring a protector vest (hogu) (now an electronic piece of ......) a helmet and a pair of electronic socks that not always score right points, plus you see two competitors bobing playing around feinting and with an unrealistic low guard trowing a couple of kicks and then go for the clinch and stop the fight, other factor for the bad rap for TKD are the masters and instructors who teach only sport TKD and leave the self defense and martiality in the last part, the clases are all the same, you see a lot of kids doing unrealistic kicks to the head (doly chagui, chigo/neryo chagui, bakat chagui, an chagui, troenado kicks ,etc,) and never or almost never practice punching or another hand techs., other big component to the bad rap on TKD is the WTF and the KUKIWON they simply are looking sports ahead.

Just pass by the JKA web page and you see what a martial arts web page must be, sobrius,nice,elegant and showing the true beauty of karate do.

Manny


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## Cyriacus (Aug 5, 2011)

Video Supplement:






See now, i can understand how if someone randomly found this, they wouldnt be too impressed.

When they fight, its good. When theyre not, theyre aimlessly feinting, and standing around. This is what uneducated preconceptions are made of.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 5, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Video Supplement:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello, IT Department?  Can you send someone to look at my sound card please?  I'm watching something on youtube and can't get the music to play.

You are so right Cyriacus.  It illustrates my point above about competition rules.


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## Manny (Aug 5, 2011)

Too much atention to sport competition and too little atention to the real clasic TKD that's why TKD has a bad reputation amoung the martial arts circle. A couple of weeks ago I was in a Shotokan Dojo invited with another martial arts teachers (aikido,lima-lama,budo taijutsu) and when it was my turn I explained what TKD is nad have clear statemets that TKD is a Korean Martial Art like Karate or Lima-Lama or even Aikido, for thta matters I show a couple of kicking combos and self defense techs. I also said TKD is a nice full contact sport.

Manny


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## thelegendxp (Aug 5, 2011)

Manny said:


> Too much atention to sport competition and too little atention to the real clasic TKD that's why TKD has a bad reputation amoung the martial arts circle. A couple of weeks ago I was in a Shotokan Dojo invited with another martial arts teachers (aikido,lima-lama,budo taijutsu) and when it was my turn I explained what TKD is nad have clear statemets that TKD is a Korean Martial Art like Karate or Lima-Lama or even Aikido, for thta matters I show a couple of kicking combos and self defense techs. I also said TKD is a nice full contact sport.
> 
> Manny



As you have said, I think this largely applies to bad reputation among people who know at least something about martial arts , but in the general public in mind, the media's portrayal of 'kickass and dangerous asian martial arts' has greater effect. I think what needs to happen is a shine of light in the true TKD, to raise awareness among MA practitioners and to fight against the bloody stereotypes of today. One is easier than another


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2011)

Markku P said:


> Taekwondo - the public image - why it sucks! ( this was in my blog )
> 
> I think I have written about this before but I feel so strongly about it that I have to continue with it! First of all Taekwondo and its public image: how much of the public knows about us? What do they know about us? If they know about us then what is our message or so called "brand image".
> 
> ...





> Taekwondo - the public image - why it sucks! ( this was in my blog )



Mark, you've asked a very serious and direct question.  It deserves a serious and direct answer if anything is going to come of it other than just another thread on some web board.

First, what IS the public image.  Difficult to answer for ALL the public, but we can generally start with what is probable.  Taekwondo, as an image, is day care kiddie karate.  It isn't a serious martial art.  And to be blunt, it isn't really a martial art it is a martial sport.  It caters to children and allows 6 year old black belts to run around yelling 'hi-ya'.  It offers a questionable Olympic sport and local competitions for bullies and poor sports, including the adults.  It has belts that have every color of the rainbow including stripes to keep the carrot dangling in front of the kid (or adult doing a hobby), with a $50 tag attached to each.  It has a easily achievable BB in the shortest amount of time because hey...if a 6 year old can do it... 

That is the image of TKD.  And to be honest, that is just what many people want.  It makes them more money that way.

In my area TKD schools come and go.  They have no staying power because to be honest, with the internet, people are waking up to what a crock TKD actually has become.  The schools in my area that have demonstrated staying power are Okinawan Karate, Aikido and Jujutsu.  Why?  They are perceived, justifiably, as serious martial arts with stringent standards.  The Aikido school for example has a minimum of five years to BB if all requirements are passed.  The student wears a white belt the entire time until BB is achieved.  



> When I look at World federations or the Kukkiwon's web site, I almost feel I have to vomit!
> 
> We should really define what wed like to be and put that message out!  Everything starts from the high level; the world taekwondo federation is  our main organization so they should act first. Then Kukkiwon should  start to follow their own rules and keep the standard high for black  belts (this is easier to say than do), this is the first step.



Alright, let's talk.  You've seen me and Glenn go around on this.  You've seen my deliberate and straight-forward view on the WTF and KKW (and others).  There is a reason Mark (and everyone)...they are a joke and SHOULD make you want to vomit in your own mouth.  They violate their own standards on a whim.  They have zero accountability.  Leaders have committed crimes against the organization and other members.  There has been deliberate racial discrimination.  The majority of BB's in the organization belong to children in Korea where it is passed out like candy.  And now they have a world wide money grab...er, special testing.

And this is suppose to be the premier TKD organization?  Really?  Seriously?  And then you wonder why TKD gets such a bad rap?

How about all of you ditch the WTF and KKW?  Oh, I know someone will say they provide a unified standard to follow.  My response, what unified standard?  The one they make you follow or the one for their buddies?  Which side of the double-standard are you?  Those that sing the praises of these corrupt organizations...what is there angle?  Are they hooked into them in some way that requires the orgs continued existence and financial flow?  Are they hooked into it for their rank?  Have they spent so much time and money that they have nothing else without it?  Serious questions.

Maybe a BUNCH of you should for a cooperative?  One with serious and strict standards and rules that don't get changed at a whim.  One that doesn't charge an arm and a leg to join.  Here's a thought...make it free (or at least only what is needed to print a cert and ship it...about $10).  The ones that are only in TKD for the money won't join, but then you don't need or want them anyway.

The KKW and the other big orgs aren't going to change unless they are really shoved hard to do so.  And no one is really going to be doing any shoving anytime soon are they?  Be honest.  This makes a dandy web discussion but that's all it is isn't it?  Great place to rant and complain but it isn't like any of you are going to do anything...are you?  Here's a little lesson from physics;  an object at rest (KKW) tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force (you).  

So...does any of this go beyond MT or is it just a feel-good-to-rant thread?


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## ETinCYQX (Aug 6, 2011)

KSD...You do understand that the KKW does NO enforcement right? That's not their job and it never has been. And as far as the WTF goes, if you like to compete you'd be a fool to be involved anywhere else really.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 6, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> KSD...You do understand that the KKW does NO enforcement right? That's not their job and it never has been. And as far as the WTF goes, if you like to compete you'd be a fool to be involved anywhere else really.



Perhaps it should have been from the beginning.  It would have avoided quite a bit of the problems that have arisen.

And if people want to compete under the WTF then this means that you WILL do what they tell you to do.  You WILL follow their commands.  If there is any wrong doing on their part you WILL look the other way.  And you WILL do it without complaint.


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## ETinCYQX (Aug 6, 2011)

The WTF literally only tells me what I have to wear to their events. They've never cheated me nor anyone I know, what I pay to the WTF indirectly is not worth mentioning, and I still run my classes exactly the way I would anyway. Literally the only thing I "have" to do is own a V neck dobok.


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 6, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Mark, you've asked a very serious and direct question.  It deserves a serious and direct answer if anything is going to come of it other than just another thread on some web board.
> 
> First, what IS the public image.  Difficult to answer for ALL the public, but we can generally start with what is probable.  Taekwondo, as an image, is day care kiddie karate.  It isn't a serious martial art.  And to be blunt, it isn't really a martial art it is a martial sport.  It caters to children and allows 6 year old black belts to run around yelling 'hi-ya'.  It offers a questionable Olympic sport and local competitions for bullies and poor sports, including the adults.  It has belts that have every color of the rainbow including stripes to keep the carrot dangling in front of the kid (or adult doing a hobby), with a $50 tag attached to each.  It has a easily achievable BB in the shortest amount of time because hey...if a 6 year old can do it...
> 
> ...


So true, great post. That is exactly why our club went independent and you only have to see the looks on the faces of those who come to our club from kukkiwon clubs to see it was the best decision the club ever made. I will say though, there are plenty of 6 year old karate black belts running around also, not as many as tkd, but there are more tkd clubs so obviously there will be more tkd kiddie black belts.


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## Manny (Aug 7, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Mark, you've asked a very serious and direct question.  It deserves a serious and direct answer if anything is going to come of it other than just another thread on some web board.
> 
> First, what IS the public image.  Difficult to answer for ALL the public, but we can generally start with what is probable.  Taekwondo, as an image, is day care kiddie karate.  It isn't a serious martial art.  And to be blunt, it isn't really a martial art it is a martial sport.  It caters to children and allows 6 year old black belts to run around yelling 'hi-ya'.  It offers a questionable Olympic sport and local competitions for bullies and poor sports, including the adults.  It has belts that have every color of the rainbow including stripes to keep the carrot dangling in front of the kid (or adult doing a hobby), with a $50 tag attached to each.  It has a easily achievable BB in the shortest amount of time because hey...if a 6 year old can do it...
> 
> ...




It's sad but you are true about almost anything on this reply.

Manny


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## ralphmcpherson (Aug 7, 2011)

Another point in all this is jelousy. Tkd takes a huge share of the martial arts dollar and from a business perspective this would cause a lot of jelousy. I know the hall we train in has a karate class that trains after us. The karate instructor can only shake his head as 50 tkdists leave the hall and he starts his karate class with 10 students, this will always inherently cause some jelousy. Tall poppie syndrome happens in all walks of life.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 8, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Another point in all this is jelousy. Tkd takes a huge share of the martial arts dollar and from a business perspective this would cause a lot of jelousy. I know the hall we train in has a karate class that trains after us. The karate instructor can only shake his head as 50 tkdists leave the hall and he starts his karate class with 10 students, this will always inherently cause some jelousy. Tall poppie syndrome happens in all walks of life.



Yes, times change.  I can remember when it was the other way around.  When you told people you studied TKD, you had to explain that it was Korean Karate.


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 8, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Mark, you've asked a very serious and direct question. It deserves a serious and direct answer if anything is going to come of it other than just another thread on some web board.
> 
> First, what IS the public image. Difficult to answer for ALL the public, but we can generally start with what is probable. Taekwondo, as an image, is day care kiddie karate. It isn't a serious martial art. And to be blunt, it isn't really a martial art it is a martial sport. It caters to children and allows 6 year old black belts to run around yelling 'hi-ya'. It offers a questionable Olympic sport and local competitions for bullies and poor sports, including the adults. It has belts that have every color of the rainbow including stripes to keep the carrot dangling in front of the kid (or adult doing a hobby), with a $50 tag attached to each. It has a easily achievable BB in the shortest amount of time because hey...if a 6 year old can do it...
> 
> ...



I was going to reply to this thread, but KSD did such a perfect job, I am just going to point at what he wrote.

AOG


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## Manny (Aug 8, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Another point in all this is jelousy. Tkd takes a huge share of the martial arts dollar and from a business perspective this would cause a lot of jelousy. I know the hall we train in has a karate class that trains after us. The karate instructor can only shake his head as 50 tkdists leave the hall and he starts his karate class with 10 students, this will always inherently cause some jelousy. Tall poppie syndrome happens in all walks of life.



Oh yes, here in my city the most successfull martial arts dojangs/dojos are the TKD ones, the ones who have plenty of kids.

Manny


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## RobinTKD (Aug 8, 2011)

Is this really how it is in North America? Over here in the UK the 2 biggest orgs are UKTA and TAGB, both ITF style TKD, so maybe we don't get it so much here with the WTF and KKW, but I've been to a good few clubs and the youngest BB I've ever seen (in any martial art) was 9, and he was definitely deserving of it, great technique and focus, and more power than is right for a kid of that age, the main problem over here is that I STILL have to tell people that Taekwon-Do is Korean Karate otherwise I get blank looks when I tell people what I do.

Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits


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## ETinCYQX (Aug 8, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> Is this really how it is in North America? Over here in the UK the 2 biggest orgs are UKTA and TAGB, both ITF style TKD, so maybe we don't get it so much here with the WTF and KKW, but I've been to a good few clubs and the youngest BB I've ever seen (in any martial art) was 9, and he was definitely deserving of it, great technique and focus, and more power than is right for a kid of that age, the main problem over here is that I STILL have to tell people that Taekwon-Do is Korean Karate otherwise I get blank looks when I tell people what I do.
> 
> Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits



:BSmeter:


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## Cyriacus (Aug 8, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> Is this really how it is in North America? Over here in the UK the 2 biggest orgs are UKTA and TAGB, both ITF style TKD, so maybe we don't get it so much here with the WTF and KKW, but I've been to a good few clubs and the youngest BB I've ever seen (in any martial art) was 9, and he was definitely deserving of it, great technique and focus, and more power than is right for a kid of that age, the main problem over here is that I STILL have to tell people that Taekwon-Do is Korean Karate otherwise I get blank looks when I tell people what I do.
> 
> Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits


Since someone branded this in bollocks-o-vision, i can confirm that the Organisation is very much prominent in the UK.
Im not sure about the 9yo though.


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## RobinTKD (Aug 9, 2011)

I'm not entirely sure what is supposed to be ******** about what i said? I didn't say that the WTF and KKW aren't big over here, but twice the amount of people study ITF in England. The national championships are an ITF based sparring system in which the finals are usually between either 2 tagb fighters or tagb and ukta. the WTF has only really got bigger over here in the last couple of years.


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## ETinCYQX (Aug 9, 2011)

"Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats  that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits "

That's an asinine thing to say and pretty damn far from being North America exclusive or WTF exclusive.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 9, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> "Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats  that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits "
> 
> That's an asinine thing to say and pretty damn far from being North America exclusive or WTF exclusive.


Might i interject here, and recommend in future, making the text you are referring to Bold, or Italic, or somesuch?


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## andyjeffries (Aug 10, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> I'm not entirely sure what is supposed to be ******** about what i said? I didn't say that the WTF and KKW aren't big over here, but twice the amount of people study ITF in England.



Where are you getting your stats from?  I couldn't find reliable stats on practitioner numbers last time I looked, but comparing the number of BTC registered instructors (as the only metric available), the BTCB had far more than any other single ITF or independent group and 2/3 of all the independent/ITF groups combinedd.  Also bear in mind that there are a lot more KKW Taekwondo practitioners outside the BTCB than in it (UKTDC, being an obvious example of a non-BTCB, non-BTC group).

For example, the BTCB list of BTC registered instructors contains 1,155 names.  The BTC stats on the TAGB shows 585 and the others (some of which may be actually Kukkiwon-style) add up to 1162 (212 + 51 + 130 + 178 + 280 + 28 + 67 + 53 + 47 + 71 + 13 + 32).

So, a while ago I had it in mind that the ITF was far larger but have no stats to prove this and it seems that it may actually not be the case.  Even the recent Sport England activity survey for Taekwondo doesn't describe style of Taekwondo, so we don't have stats from them.

My question obviously is then - for you to say "twice the amount of people" - where are you getting this from?



RobinTKD said:


> The national championships are an ITF based sparring system in which the finals are usually between either 2 tagb fighters or tagb and ukta. the WTF has only really got bigger over here in the last couple of years.



But you're referring to the ITF National Championship.  What about the BTCB National Championships?  Or the BTCB British Open?  Of course the ITF National Championships contain finals with ITF-stylists, I think that's a given ;-)

The WTF/KKW Taekwondo presence in the UK has always been a constant in my mind, but I guess we're just from different sides of the fence so maybe it's only recently they've made their presence more felt over your side of the fence...


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## andyjeffries (Aug 10, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Since someone branded this in bollocks-o-vision, i can confirm that the Organisation is very much prominent in the UK.



The TAGB is very prominent in the UK, I absolutely agree.  Personally I think that's due to better marketing prowess than the KKW/WTF presences, rather than size though.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 10, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> the main problem over here is that I STILL have to tell people that Taekwon-Do is Korean Karate otherwise I get blank looks when I tell people what I do.



That may be a big difference between ITF Taekwon-do and KKW Taekwondo in the UK then.  I NEVER have to explain what Taekwondo is and I NEVER would tell people it's Korean Karate.  I don't know if that's a difference in where we live (you live in Scotland, right?).  I work in London and live just north of London.  Adverts for Taekwondo in the 2012 Olympics have been in the free daily papers down here.

Even going back a long while though, before it was as well known, I would have explained that it's a mainly kicking martial art and sport (before Olympics, including the word Olympics after 1988) and never have thought to use Karate as a comparison (unless I was explaining "a martial art, you know, like Karate, Aikido, Judo but mainly kicking" if they looked blank at "martial art").



RobinTKD said:


> Maybe it's cause your country is so huge and full of capitalist fat cats that even your martial arts gets over run with money grabbing gits



I think a lot of people are not getting your British sense of humour on this one mate ;-)


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## Cyriacus (Aug 10, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> The TAGB is very prominent in the UK, I absolutely agree.  Personally I think that's due to better marketing prowess than the KKW/WTF presences, rather than size though.


Possibly.
The only reason it wouldnt surprise me if they had a higher presence in the UK is that we god a HUGE turnout from Team UK in NZ last year. As in, even when compared to any of the other given Countries. Granted, most were just Spectating, but still. It was alot of people.

Personally though, ive never cared which Organisation has a higher presence. Were both Big Organisations, aiming for much in the same thing. Though its completely off topic, ill use here to say that ill never get why so many people (Albeit, i have yet to see such a person on this site in the recent past; I found one post many pages into the past trying to compare Orgs) try and debate pros and cons of Organisations, when its all subjective. Look at Karate - It has so many variations at this point, that you may as well cut off the Karate part of the name, and just call it Kenpo/Shotokan/Kyokushin/IsshanRyu(Is that how its spelt?) or whathaveyou. Same stuff, different ways of doing the exact same thing.


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## RobinTKD (Aug 11, 2011)

> That may be a big difference between ITF Taekwon-do and KKW Taekwondo in the UK then.  I NEVER have to explain what Taekwondo is and I NEVER would tell people it's Korean Karate.  I don't know if that's a difference in where we live (you live in Scotland, right?).  I work in London and live just north of London.  Adverts for Taekwondo in the 2012 Olympics have been in the free daily papers down here.



No I live in Northamptonshire, but i personally have never met a WTF/KKW practitioner in the UK, when i first started learning TKD i honestly thought (albeit very naively) that the style had never made it over here. Since having posted my original comment, i've spoken to a few of the more senior grades at my class and they agree with you that the WTF is getting bigger, faster in the UK now. The TAGB really don't seem to have that strong a presence around this area so much, there are A LOT more independent clubs, and the UKTA are almost non-existent around here now when previously every other club was UKTA. 



> Even going back a long while though, before it was as well known, I would have explained that it's a mainly kicking martial art and sport (before Olympics, including the word Olympics after 1988) and never have thought to use Karate as a comparison (unless I was explaining "a martial art, you know, like Karate, Aikido, Judo but mainly kicking" if they looked blank at "martial art")



I tend to call it Korean Karate just to placate people quickly, most people who ask me don't have an interest but if they express an interest then i'll go into more detail. Plus with the ITF changing quite a lot in the last couple of years, it's getting harder to describe it as a predominantly kicking art, there's 100% more emphasis on using the hands now than when i first started.



> I think a lot of people are not getting your British sense of humour on this one mate ;-)



Obviously! My point still stands though, it seems that by the way the Yanks are talking that the *majority* of Dojangs are belt factories over there, where as my experience over here is that they are a *tiny* *minority*, and they seem to centre more around Kickboxing, though that could be seen as a massive generalisation and in no way is meant to diminish the art of kickboxing. The bigger problem over here is the amount of MMA schools where anyone can take a couple of lessons and come out saying that they're an MMA Fighter, which can be hugely misleading.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 15, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> No I live in Northamptonshire, but i personally have never met a WTF/KKW practitioner in the UK



Master Kevin Hornsey (ex-Chairman of the BTCB) is in Northampton.  Then again I very rarely meet other Taekwondoin by chance out and about (there is one story I have about a faker though).  When I go to Taekwondo events they're WTF/KKW ones so I don't see any/many ITFers there.  So I can see where you're coming from, but I know you guys exist ;-P



RobinTKD said:


> when i first started learning TKD i honestly thought (albeit very naively) that the style had never made it over here. Since having posted my original comment, i've spoken to a few of the more senior grades at my class and they agree with you that the WTF is getting bigger, faster in the UK now.


 
The funny thing is I think it's slowing down in growth or declining ;-)  Our club size is a lot smaller than it used to be...



RobinTKD said:


> The TAGB really don't seem to have that strong a presence around this area so much, there are A LOT more independent clubs, and the UKTA are almost non-existent around here now when previously every other club was UKTA.
> 
> Actually, now you say it - I always have in mind that the TAGB is the biggest player and the gorilla in the room when it comes to marketing themselves, but actually they seem to have been a bit quiet in recent years...
> 
> ...


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Master Kevin Hornsey (ex-Chairman of the BTCB) is in Northampton. Then again I very rarely meet other Taekwondoin by chance out and about (there is one story I have about a faker though). When I go to Taekwondo events they're WTF/KKW ones so I don't see any/many ITFers there. So I can see where you're coming from, but I know you guys exist ;-P
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## andyjeffries (Aug 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> andyjeffries said:
> 
> 
> > I can arrange that if you wish! :ultracool
> ...


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## Archtkd (Aug 15, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> Obviously! My point still stands though, it seems that by the way the Yanks are talking that the *majority* of Dojangs are belt factories over there, where as my experience over here is that they are a *tiny* *minority*, and they seem to centre more around Kickboxing, though that could be seen as a massive generalisation and in no way is meant to diminish the art of kickboxing. The bigger problem over here is the amount of MMA schools where anyone can take a couple of lessons and come out saying that they're an MMA Fighter, which can be hugely misleading.


And you know this how? Hard stats, research, study? So you think the Yanks you speak of represent the bulk of Taekwondo dojang owners in the United States. I am assuming you are talking of the few people who post stuff about Taekwondo on MT, the majority of who we can't even ascertain own their own dojangs or teach Taekwondo.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 15, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> And you know this how? Hard stats, research, study? So you think the Yanks you speak of represent the bulk of Taekwondo dojang owners in the United States. I am assuming you are talking of the few people who post stuff about Taekwondo on MT, the majority of who we can't even ascertain own their own dojangs or teach Taekwondo.



To answer on RobinTKD's behalf (although I'm sure he'll be on later) : "it seems that by the way the Yanks are talking".  That's what makes him think that.

I don't necessarily agree, but you Americans* do seem to have more of an issue with McDojangs over there - in the UK there are very few like this in Taekwondo.  In the UK these belt-factories/pure money making ventures are more in Kickboxing and MMA and the Taekwondo (while not necessarily always of an excellent standard) is generally fairly well taught.

* It seems also that Robin's characterisation of "Yanks" offended you ("the Yanks you speak of"), but I'm sure he just means Americans.  Personally I'd take no offence by being called a "Brit", but I know that Yankee means something specific, as in it refers to a subset of Americans not all of them (although outside the USA, it just is used to refer to Americans - not in a derogatory sense, just in a slang sense).


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## Archtkd (Aug 15, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> To answer on RobinTKD's behalf (although I'm sure he'll be on later) : "it seems that by the way the Yanks are talking".  That's what makes him think that.
> 
> I don't necessarily agree, but you Americans* do seem to have more of an issue with McDojangs over there - in the UK there are very few like this in Taekwondo.  In the UK these belt-factories/pure money making ventures are more in Kickboxing and MMA and the Taekwondo (while not necessarily always of an excellent standard) is generally fairly well taught.
> 
> * It seems also that Robin's characterisation of "Yanks" offended you ("the Yanks you speak of"), but I'm sure he just means Americans.  Personally I'd take no offence by being called a "Brit", but I know that Yankee means something specific, as in it refers to a subset of Americans not all of them (although outside the USA, it just is used to refer to Americans - not in a derogatory sense, just in a slang sense).



Oh no. The Yank reference didn't offend. I was more concerned about the generalization of U.S Taekwondo dojangs, and the idea that the posters on MT represent the entire Taekwondo sector in the U.S. 

There's lots of noise on MT boards coming from people who don't own or operate their own Taekwondo dojangs and others who don't teach Taekwondo, but they make it seem like every Taekwondo dojang in the U.S is a belt mill. A number of the loudest critics here have no basic understanding of how to run a business/club/association leave alone a Taekwondo dojang. I also see some people from countries where governments subsidize private dojangs writing here, without having a basic understanding of the American , cultural, social, political and economic landscape. 

For the most part, if you operate a Taekwondo dojang here in the U.S, you are on your own irrespective of association or affiliation. You raise your own capital to build or build-out your own dojang. You negotiate rent, insurance, etc. on your own., etc. You are responsible for ensuring your dojang meets the minimum city building and safety codes. You face the risks of lawsuits, disaster, etc, on your own. You recruit members on your own. You appoint or hire and fire instructors on your own and take the risks of doing so on your own. The Kukkiwon, associations, federations, and the loudest babblers on MT don't help you with any of that stuff.


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## Markku P (Aug 15, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> There's lots of noise on MT boards coming from people who don't own or operate their own Taekwondo dojangs and others who don't teach Taekwondo, but they make it seem like every Taekwondo dojang in the U.S is a belt mill. A number of the loudest critics here have no basic understanding of how to run a business/club/association leave alone a Taekwondo dojang. I also see some people from countries where governments subsidize private dojangs writing here, without having a basic understanding of the American , cultural, social, political and economic landscape.



USA is such a big country and you will find so many different Taekwondo schools. Some good, some bad like everywhere else. I would be very foolish to assume that every school is after the money or they are just "belt factories" ( I have even visited some very good ATA-Taekwondo schools over there :angel: )

/Markku P.


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## RobinTKD (Aug 17, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Oh no. The Yank reference didn't offend. I was more concerned about the generalization of U.S Taekwondo dojangs, and the idea that the posters on MT represent the entire Taekwondo sector in the U.S.
> 
> There's lots of noise on MT boards coming from people who don't own or operate their own Taekwondo dojangs and others who don't teach Taekwondo, but they make it seem like every Taekwondo dojang in the U.S is a belt mill. A number of the loudest critics here have no basic understanding of how to run a business/club/association leave alone a Taekwondo dojang. I also see some people from countries where governments subsidize private dojangs writing here, without having a basic understanding of the American , cultural, social, political and economic landscape.
> 
> For the most part, if you operate a Taekwondo dojang here in the U.S, you are on your own irrespective of association or affiliation. You raise your own capital to build or build-out your own dojang. You negotiate rent, insurance, etc. on your own., etc. You are responsible for ensuring your dojang meets the minimum city building and safety codes. You face the risks of lawsuits, disaster, etc, on your own. You recruit members on your own. You appoint or hire and fire instructors on your own and take the risks of doing so on your own. The Kukkiwon, associations, federations, and the loudest babblers on MT don't help you with any of that stuff.



A very good reply! I'm aware that MT does't represent the entirety of American Dojangs, just as Mr Jefferies, Tez and I don't represent the entirety of UK Dojangs, maybe I should rephrase what I said slightly to say that it seems that one of the main problems _discussed _by american practitioners is belt factories and the trouble they can cause, where as over here in Blighty, it doesn't seem to be on anyone's mind at all really!



> Actually, now you say it - I always have in mind that the TAGB is the biggest player and the gorilla in the room when it comes to marketing themselves, but actually they seem to have been a bit quiet in recent years...



I'd still agree that they are the biggest player in ITF Taekwon Do in the UK, and there is a club in the same town that i practice, we have about 50-60 practitioners of various levels with (as of july this year) four 1st Dans, and one 2nd Dan, the TAGB on the other hand has 6 regular practitioners all of which are black belts from 1st-5th Dan, having trained with both, there is no difference in the quality of teaching and i think the reason independent clubs are doing so well now is that they have more flexibility in terms of where and when they can train. 



> Master Kevin Hornsey (ex-Chairman of the BTCB) is in Northampton.



Is he also WTF/KKW? It would be interesting to meet someone in real life who studies the style!


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## andyjeffries (Aug 17, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> Is he also WTF/KKW? It would be interesting to meet someone in real life who studies the style!



The BTCB is the Member National Association for the WTF in the UK.  Kevin is I believe a 6th or 7th Dan Kukkiwon (he was a 6th dan for ages, so I'm sure he's a 7th now).  He's a very nice guy and definitely knows KKW style Taekwondo


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