# wow...a $3000 1st poom exam!



## msmitht (Apr 28, 2011)

Had a new student join. She recently moved from pa. And is 1st poom. When her mom signed up she kept asking about exam price so I quoted her my prices and her jaw hit the floor. She said her old gm charged 3000 for her 1st poom exam. He did have guest gm examiners, rented a ballroom at hotel (on a top golf course) which, since it was a two day event, they had to stay at (extra expense). They spent 3700 when all was said and done and she still, 8months later, has not received her kkw cert.
Now I like the guest gm's and bringing it to a hotel adds value but 3000 dollars? She said that there were 50 kids there from 4 schools.


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## jks9199 (Apr 28, 2011)

Going to a resort or hotel like that runs around $1000 (or more) rent a day.  Personally, I have to ask -- is it necessary?  Does it change the value of the experience?

Guest instructors/evaluators makes sense and is reasonable.  But I don't get the $3000 fee... plus hotel bills and other costs.


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## WC_lun (Apr 28, 2011)

Rediculous.


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## Aikicomp (Apr 28, 2011)

Unfortunately, that is why I have heard, more times than I can remember, 


Tae Kwon do refered to as:



"Take your dough".


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## Archtkd (Apr 28, 2011)

What's the saying about a sucker being born every second?


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## Manny (Apr 29, 2011)

Jesus Christ!!!! U$D3,000.00 pir a poom/dba certificaction plus expenses  OMG!!! I just paid for my second dan (not KKW) U$D450.00 plus U$D140.00 (bus to Mexico City,meals and one hotel night), that gives a grand total of U$D590.00.

In my examination I had 8 sinodals ranging from 5th degree to 8th degree black belt.

If some sensei,teacjer,sambonim or what ever wants to charge me U$D3,000.00 I would leve him/her in a heartbeat! that's my income of 2 months!!

Manny


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## IcemanSK (Apr 29, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Had a new student join. She recently moved from pa. And is 1st poom. When her mom signed up she kept asking about exam price so I quoted her my prices and her jaw hit the floor. She said her old gm charged 3000 for her 1st poom exam. He did have guest gm examiners, rented a ballroom at hotel (on a top golf course) which, since it was a two day event, they had to stay at (extra expense). They spent 3700 when all was said and done and she still, 8months later, has not received her kkw cert.
> Now I like the guest gm's and bringing it to a hotel adds value but 3000 dollars? She said that there were 50 kids there from 4 schools.



Too bad they didn't find you before they paid money. 

I think that, for some of these instructors, they want to add to the prestidge of the rank. "BB is so valueable at our dojang that we charge a lot for it." Some folks figure that "if it costs so much, it's the Mercedes Benz of schools. So, my kids goes to the best school in town." It's really sad. Just sad.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 29, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Going to a resort or hotel like that runs around $1000 (or more) rent a day. Personally, I have to ask -- is it necessary? Does it change the value of the experience?


No and no.



jks9199 said:


> Guest instructors/evaluators makes sense and is reasonable. But I don't get the $3000 fee... plus hotel bills and other costs.


I get it.  The school owner probably makes five hundred to a thousand dollars per student  after all is said and done.  Fifty kids from four schools.  

That's twenty five to fifty grand in profit over and above all of the tuition fees, club fees, and colored belt testing fees that students are already paying.

That's how you can make fifty grand a year as a school owner.  All in one day.

Daniel


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 29, 2011)

It is ridiculous!


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## clfsean (Apr 29, 2011)

I can take my family on vacation to Mexico for a week (airfare included) for the cost of that rank. Jeez....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 29, 2011)

And they still haven't received the KKW pum cert after eight months.  

For that kind of money, it should have been express delivered the next day!

Daniel


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## msmitht (Apr 29, 2011)

Her name is still not in the kkw database as of this morning.


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## granfire (Apr 29, 2011)

and there I thought I heard it all when a school owner friend accepted a crossover student: The guy was asked to pay 1400 bucks for his 2nd dan test...


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## granfire (Apr 29, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Her name is still not in the kkw database as of this morning.




Maybe she needs to drop the 'L' word in the next convo with the instructor....tends to speed things up....

At that price, I would not have that much patience...


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## Twin Fist (Apr 29, 2011)

do i need to say it?

seriously??


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## andyjeffries (Apr 29, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Had a new student join. She recently moved from pa. And is 1st poom. When her mom signed up she kept asking about exam price so I quoted her my prices and her jaw hit the floor. She said her old gm charged 3000 for her 1st poom exam. He did have guest gm examiners, rented a ballroom at hotel (on a top golf course) which, since it was a two day event, they had to stay at (extra expense). They spent 3700 when all was said and done and she still, 8months later, has not received her kkw cert.
> Now I like the guest gm's and bringing it to a hotel adds value but 3000 dollars? She said that there were 50 kids there from 4 schools.



This is terrible and disgusting and all that (I agree completely), but the question no one's asked yet is "is she worth 1st poom?".

It would make it all the worse if she was not very good and effectively just paid (a lot) to buy rank.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 29, 2011)

I cant believe these people dont shop around. I mean, a kukkiwon certificate is going to look the same and have the same value irrespective of where you got it. If someone told me my kukkiwon certification was going to be $3000 the first thing I would do is ring other kukki clubs in my area and ask what they charge and if there was a huge difference in cost for the exact same thing then I would be suss. I can understand at a non affiliated club because the only way to get their cert is to test at their club, so you have no choice, but surely being a part of an org means you can shop around. If one car dealer was selling a brand new toyota landcruiser for $50 000 and the car dealer up the road had the exact same car for $45 000 then you would purchase it from the second dealer. Why do people not use this logic with martial arts? Isnt this the whole idea of having something like the kukkiwon, so there is a standardised curriculum and certification? If not, then I fail to see the value in an organisation.


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## Master Dan (Apr 29, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Had a new student join. She recently moved from pa. And is 1st poom. When her mom signed up she kept asking about exam price so I quoted her my prices and her jaw hit the floor. She said her old gm charged 3000 for her 1st poom exam. He did have guest gm examiners, rented a ballroom at hotel (on a top golf course) which, since it was a two day event, they had to stay at (extra expense). They spent 3700 when all was said and done and she still, 8months later, has not received her kkw cert.
> Now I like the guest gm's and bringing it to a hotel adds value but 3000 dollars? She said that there were 50 kids there from 4 schools.


 
SOUNDS LIKE ATU AND KOREAN BORN INSTRUCTORS TO ME BLEED THE NON KOREANS FOR ALL THEY ARE WORTH! ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY BOYS BUSINESS AND USE THEM STUPID NON KOREANS FOR ALL THEY ARE WORTH. Read the text of the Masters license all about commercialization of what was a traditiona art form gee you think the Olypics is any different why the cover up drug users and child abuers?


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## Gorilla (Apr 30, 2011)

3k is sad!!!  Outrageous!!!


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## Archtkd (Apr 30, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> SOUNDS LIKE ATU AND KOREAN BORN INSTRUCTORS TO ME BLEED THE NON KOREANS FOR ALL THEY ARE WORTH! ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY BOYS BUSINESS AND USE THEM STUPID NON KOREANS FOR ALL THEY ARE WORTH. Read the text of the Masters license all about commercialization of what was a traditiona art form gee you think the Olypics is any different why the cover up drug users and child abuers?


 
I don't know how this stupidy on a buyers part justifies a blanket statement indicting the ATU and Korean born instructors. I wonder where this debate would head if a similar statement was made about African, African-American or Hispanic Taekwondo instructors. Also, I don't think the OP identified the GM charging the exhorbitant fee as Korean. 

The fact is this is a free Democratic country. We are not in some Communist state where price controls are set for everything by sinister figures in a dark Central Control Ministry. If  a sly grandmaster has discovered that there are idiots who will dish out $3,000 for a Kukkiwon poom certificate -- which they might never get -- power to him. The GM would never charge such a a fee if he didn't know there are people who are willing to pay.


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## Carol (Apr 30, 2011)

Why would you say power to a grandmaster who charges an exorbitant and then not deliver on what was promised?

3000 x 50 = 150,000.  To gross $150,000 from one event and then not deliver sounds rather scummy to me, if not fraudulent.


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## Archtkd (Apr 30, 2011)

Carol said:


> Why would you say power to a grandmaster who charges an exorbitant and then not deliver on what was promised?
> 
> 3000 x 50 = 150,000. To gross $150,000 from one event and then not deliver sounds rather scummy to me, if not fraudulent.


 
Shouldn't the customer/s be complaining? It didn't sound like the person who was charged $3,000 was raising any hell or calling legal authorities.


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## Carol (Apr 30, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Shouldn't the customer/s be complaining? It didn't sound like the person who was charged $3,000 was raising any hell or calling legal authorities.



So this business model is perfectly acceptable unless the customer complains? Wow.


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## Archtkd (Apr 30, 2011)

Carol said:


> So this business model is perfectly acceptable unless the customer complains? Wow.


 
Save for the part where the certificate hasn't been delivered after 8 months, what's terribly wrong with the business model? Key word being business.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 30, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Save for the part where the certificate hasn't been delivered after 8 months, what's terribly wrong with the business model? Key word being business.


I agree, some blame for this sort of thing has to go to the consumer. I have run a business (not martial arts) for the last 11 years and if I could charge more and still keep clientel then I certainly would. If this guy can charge $3000 and people are stupid enough to pay it, then good on him. Its not fraudulent, he is not ripping them off or doing anything illegal. This happens in all forms of business, my wife is a jeweller and the mark up in that industry is disgustingly high, I have mates who are electrical contractors and the money they make is obscene, they are paying their house off in 2 years, plus have the nice cars and boats and fancy holidays etc. If the consumer will pay it then the businesses will charge it. As I said, most of the blame here goes to the consumer who doent bother to 'shop around'.  The only problem I see is that they still havent received their cert after 8 months.


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## msmitht (Apr 30, 2011)

Yes, the gm in question is korean. The students mother has contacted him several times and was told that the cert was ordered. I told her I can order it but she is hesitant. Will not believe that her former gm would take advantage of her and others.


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## granfire (May 1, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree, some blame for this sort of thing has to go to the consumer. I have run a business (not martial arts) for the last 11 years and if I could charge more and still keep clientel then I certainly would. If this guy can charge $3000 and people are stupid enough to pay it, then good on him. Its not fraudulent, he is not ripping them off or doing anything illegal. This happens in all forms of business, my wife is a jeweller and the mark up in that industry is disgustingly high, I have mates who are electrical contractors and the money they make is obscene, they are paying their house off in 2 years, plus have the nice cars and boats and fancy holidays etc. If the consumer will pay it then the businesses will charge it. As I said, most of the blame here goes to the consumer who doent bother to 'shop around'.  The only problem I see is that they still havent received their cert after 8 months.



Well, overpaying is one problem, but not delivering the good (the certificate) not THAT is a different matter.

(personally I would not pay a fraction for it, but that's me)

But leaving the customer hanging like that...(I am sure now that she is a 'former' student, her cert has lost on priority....)


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## Archtkd (May 1, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Yes, the gm in question is korean. The students mother has contacted him several times and was told that the cert was ordered. I told her I can order it but she is hesitant. Will not believe that her former gm would take advantage of her and others.


 
In this case she should seek legal redress. The part about her being hesitant to believe she was taken advantage of is what I don't get, hence my hesitation to empathize. I mean what does it take, for people to realize they are being taken. Someone is told a Kukkiwon poom certificate which cost $70 is $3,000 and they just believe that with no question, especially when said document is not delivered after 8 months.


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## Archtkd (May 1, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Her name is still not in the kkw database as of this morning.



I had not seen this bit. Has the parent thought about suing. Surely if she can afford to dish out $3,000 paying an attorney shouldn't be a problem. maybe there might be a few lawyers here on MT that would be willing to take the case.


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## miguksaram (May 2, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> SOUNDS LIKE ATU AND KOREAN BORN INSTRUCTORS TO ME BLEED THE NON KOREANS FOR ALL THEY ARE WORTH! ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY BOYS BUSINESS AND USE THEM STUPID NON KOREANS FOR ALL THEY ARE WORTH. Read the text of the Masters license all about commercialization of what was a traditiona art form gee you think the Olypics is any different why the cover up drug users and child abuers?


I like how you single in on the guy being a Korean born instructor ripping off non-Koreans.  Is that really relevant?  

Tell you what, when your white hood and sheet get back from the cleaners we can go have ourselves a good ol' fashion Korean flag burnin'  and lynchin'.


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## miguksaram (May 2, 2011)

My take is simple.  I do not fault the person for charging $3000.00.  Hey, if people are willing to pay it, then why not?  Who are we to be judgmental over it?  Should I fault the TKD school next door to me because they charge their students twice as much for lessons as we do?  If I charge my students $80.00 for a KKW cert and the guy down the street charges only $20.00 am I the @$$hole for charging more?  

What I do fault him for is not following through on certificates like he should have.  That is where the problem lies. Is it a shame that she overpaid for the certificate?  Yes, it is a shame.  Caveat emptor.


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## d1jinx (May 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> What I do fault him for is not following through on certificates like he should have.  That is where the problem lies. Is it a shame that she overpaid for the certificate?  Yes, it is a shame.  Caveat emptor.



I agree with you completely.  we do not know the lifestyle these people came from.  Perhaps it was the Beverly Hills of PA.  And money is of no concern for these people this GM serves/robs.  The point is, he can name whatever price he wants.  those who attend decide if it is what they are willing to pay.

it is deceptive for the GM NOT to submit what he has charge for and this is the real issue.  One that led up to things like the USAT SPECIAL TEST at Vegas and other Mass testing clinics.  if GM were honest about submitting paperwork and did it like they were supposed to, we wouldn't have the over-hyped and inflated DANS we have now who run to every testing clinic available and grab rank.

This type of action leads to a larger reaction down the road.  the persons who were deceived, will now have the impression that it really is "TAKE YOUR DOE"...


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2011)

But this has been going on for years and it will continue to be a problem. Why simple greed, people are greedy society is greedy. Greed is the biggest factor in people not delivering the goods.


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## miguksaram (May 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> But this has been going on for years and it will continue to be a problem. Why simple greed, people are greedy society is greedy. Greed is the biggest factor in people not delivering the goods.


Yes and no.  Could be plain laziness not delivering the goods.  One of those things that he keeps putting off.  Not saying it is justified, just might not be greed.  Again I don't fault him for charging an outrageous price.  He has every right as a business to charge whatever he feels like.  That is beauty of capitalism.  If he can get 50 people to pay him that money, then hats off to him.  Greed? Maybe.   As a QA Analyst for software I get a pretty decent pay.  A bit more then I need for basic survival for my family.  Should I tell them that I want less money because they are paying me more than I really need?  I don't think so.  Come next year I am going to bug the crap out of them for a raise.


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## terryl965 (May 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Yes and no. Could be plain laziness not delivering the goods. One of those things that he keeps putting off. Not saying it is justified, just might not be greed. Again I don't fault him for charging an outrageous price. He has every right as a business to charge whatever he feels like. That is beauty of capitalism. If he can get 50 people to pay him that money, then hats off to him. Greed? Maybe. As a QA Analyst for software I get a pretty decent pay. A bit more then I need for basic survival for my family. Should I tell them that I want less money because they are paying me more than I really need? I don't think so. Come next year I am going to bug the crap out of them for a raise.


 
OK not talking about the price, people will buy what they feel its worth. The greed I am talking abouit is simply never filling for it and keeping that money or people charging and have no intention to ever get them there certs. I know people that have been waiting for two years and everytime they ask it is some story. Greed is more than money. No you should make all you can since you have the right too.


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## miguksaram (May 2, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> OK not talking about the price, people will buy what they feel its worth. The greed I am talking abouit is simply never filling for it and keeping that money or people charging and have no intention to ever get them there certs. I know people that have been waiting for two years and everytime they ask it is some story. Greed is more than money. No you should make all you can since you have the right too.


I agree with this.  Follow through is key.


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## Balrog (May 2, 2011)

*wow...a $3000 1st poom exam!* 
==========
I gotta raise my rates.....


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## shima (May 2, 2011)

$3000 really is over the top. Just because you have clientele that are silly enough to pay for the fee, doesn't mean you should make them bend over and pay it just because you can. At that point you're making their test more than just a test, you're making it an ordeal, financial and planning wise, it's no longer focused on the core test itself but on the extravagance surrounding it.


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## miguksaram (May 2, 2011)

shima said:


> $3000 really is over the top. Just because you have clientele that are silly enough to pay for the fee, doesn't mean you should make them bend over and pay it just because you can. At that point you're making their test more than just a test, you're making it an ordeal, financial and planning wise, it's no longer focused on the core test itself but on the extravagance surrounding it.


But you don't know that.  Like it was stated $3K might be a drop in the bucket for these people.  If I have people who are willing to pay that then why not.  However, if I ask 50 people to pay and only 1 can do it, then it is time to rethink my pricing.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> If I have people who are willing to pay that then why not.


Because it is ridiculous.

Daniel


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## granfire (May 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Yes and no.  Could be plain laziness not delivering the goods.  One of those things that he keeps putting off.  Not saying it is justified, just might not be greed.  Again I don't fault him for charging an outrageous price.  He has every right as a business to charge whatever he feels like.  That is beauty of capitalism.  If he can get 50 people to pay him that money, then hats off to him.  Greed? Maybe.   As a QA Analyst for software I get a pretty decent pay.  A bit more then I need for basic survival for my family.  Should I tell them that I want less money because they are paying me more than I really need?  I don't think so.  Come next year I am going to bug the crap out of them for a raise.



  At a 100 bucks I can let it go slide as laziness, at 3k it's getting awfully close to fraud and theft.  It is really not so much a matter of the price (though it does figure in the damages, in a legal way) but a matter of being strung along.  I call BS on the delay. The fee is outrageous, but nobody twisted their arms to pay it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 2, 2011)

granfire said:


> The fee is outrageous, but nobody twisted their arms to pay it.


Not necesarilly true.  I've seen a certain GM browbeat people into testing, buying weapons for optional weapons programs, and all sorts of other things.  It may not be a literal arm twist, but there are plenty of non physical ways to manipulate someone into paying too much.  And taking advantage of customer ignorance simply because you can and telling them to pay 3K simply because they can is dishonest and fraudulent.

Daniel


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## puunui (May 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I like how you single in on the guy being a Korean born instructor ripping off non-Koreans.  Is that really relevant?




Especially when one considers that neither race nor national origin was mentioned in the original post.


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## miguksaram (May 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Because it is ridiculous.
> 
> Daniel


Why?

People pay outrageous prices for purses or shoes or massages...why now martial arts?  Why makes what we do any different?


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## granfire (May 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not necesarilly true.  I've seen a certain GM browbeat people into testing, buying weapons for optional weapons programs, and all sorts of other things.  It may not be a literal arm twist, but there are plenty of non physical ways to manipulate someone into paying too much.  And taking advantage of customer ignorance simply because you can and telling them to pay 3K simply because they can is dishonest and fraudulent.
> 
> Daniel



  I know about the browbeating. But at some point a customer needs to look past the edge of the plate. I mean, the information is out at your fingertips these days, little excuse for not knowing better.   I don't agree with the browbeating either but it still is a far cry from twisting arms.   I do agree though that it is dishonest to pray on a customers ignorance and - lets face it - trust and loyalty.  I totally agree, it's unethical, sadly not illegal to the best of my knowledge.  HOWEVER: Taking the money and NOT delivering the goods, that should have consequences! Take it to Judge Judy!


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 2, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Why?
> 
> People pay outrageous prices for purses or shoes or massages...why now martial arts? Why makes what we do any different?


I never said that it was different.  Only that it was ridiculous.

However, in an art whose large organizations promote a high standard of behaviour and ethics, the answer to why it is different self evident.

Daniel


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## sfs982000 (May 2, 2011)

I'm curious did this person ever say what they were charged for testing at the lower belts?  I would have to agree that $3000.00 for an exam is just crazy.  Was this just because of the cost to have the guest GM come in and for the rental of the ballroom or is that their normal cost for poom testing?  I'm not sure what the legal ramifications of something like that would because it doesn't really sound like there was a breach of contract anywhere, but after 8 months and still no KKW certificate I don't know I think it would at least be worth some looking into.  Then again if no one else complains about it nothing will get done.


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## shima (May 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not necesarilly true.  I've seen a certain GM browbeat people into testing, buying weapons for optional weapons programs, and all sorts of other things.  It may not be a literal arm twist, but there are plenty of non physical ways to manipulate someone into paying too much.  And taking advantage of customer ignorance simply because you can and telling them to pay 3K simply because they can is dishonest and fraudulent.
> 
> Daniel



Whether they were physically or verbally beat into it, or even if they didn't need any convincing because they're rich, it's still far out of the scope of reasonable fees for a test. There's a point where you switch from paying so your instructors can make a living and paying so your instructors can rip you off...


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## searcher (May 2, 2011)

I was trying to come up with some smart reply, but the high $$$ of the test made my brain shut down.     I think some of us see who is teaching for money and who is not.   Its kinda funny, I only charge $15 for a belt test and I get all kinds of slack from students and some parents.    If I said it was $3000, they would just pack up and move on to the next school.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 2, 2011)

Not to mention that outrageous pricing is usually paired with suboptimal instruction.

Daniel


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## shima (May 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not to mention that outrageous pricing is usually paired with suboptimal instruction.
> 
> Daniel



Totally agree on this point, usually people put their price high for the wow factor "wow if he/she costs that much surely they must be good..." when in reality they're compensating for the fact that they're not good by trying to give a false impression.


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## msmitht (May 2, 2011)

Her technique is ok but had not sparred in a year. Parents average income. She said that normally belt test was1500 but 20 gms were there and was special test. Got a trophy and sword and new embroidered do bok too.


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## Archtkd (May 2, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Her technique is ok but had not sparred in a year. Parents average income. She said that normally belt test was1500 but 20 gms were there and was special test. Got a trophy and sword and new embroidered do bok too.


 
This story keeps getting sadder by the minute. Average income parents can normally afford to pay $1,500 for a poom certificate and double that when 20 gms come to town to party? This reminds me of Chris Rock's "Good Hair" a controversial and funny/sad documentary, which explores what some women are willing to pay for a weave. It cost  $1,000-plus at one shop, which also offered lay away plans.


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## Archtkd (May 2, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Her technique is ok but had not sparred in a year. Parents average income. She said that normally belt test was1500 but 20 gms were there and was special test. Got a trophy and sword and new embroidered do bok too.


 
Which brings me to another question. How much does it cost your students to fly to Korea and take the test at the Kukkiwon in front of real GMs? Fare, plus hotel and actual Kukkiwon fee. I know a GM who's currently offering an 8-day trip to Korea in October, that will include training and testing at the Kukkiwon. Total fee for the whole thing is about $2,000.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 3, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Which brings me to another question. How much does it cost your students to fly to Korea and take the test at the Kukkiwon in front of real GMs? Fare, plus hotel and actual Kukkiwon fee. I know a GM who's currently offering an 8-day trip to Korea in October, that will include training and testing at the Kukkiwon. Total fee for the whole thing is about $2,000.


But if you spend $2000 to go to Korea, there is no guarantee you will pass!


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## searcher (May 3, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> But if you spend $2000 to go to Korea, there is no guarantee you will pass!


 

And if you pay $3000 there is a guarantee?      Please be joking!!!


No chance of failure=not a test!!!!


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## miguksaram (May 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I never said that it was different.  Only that it was ridiculous.
> 
> However, in an art whose large organizations promote a high standard of behaviour and ethics, the answer to why it is different self evident.
> 
> Daniel


But what is unethical for charging $3K, as long as you follow through with what you promise?  What is the outrageous behavior being displayed?  

For the record, yes, I believe charging $3K is crazy BUT, if you can do it and someone will pay it then more power to you.  I personally would not, but then again, I know my customer base well enough to know they would not pay such a fee.


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## miguksaram (May 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not to mention that outrageous pricing is usually paired with suboptimal instruction.
> 
> Daniel


According to which scientific study on the statistics of pricing vs. quality of instruction?

Why should we as martial artists feel ashamed to charge a premium price for our services?  What is this stigma that says we have to live in poverty in order to enjoy what we do?


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## miguksaram (May 3, 2011)

shima said:


> Whether they were physically or verbally beat into it, or even if they didn't need any convincing because they're rich, it's still far out of the scope of reasonable fees for a test. There's a point where you switch from paying so your instructors can make a living and paying so your instructors can rip you off...



What rip off?  Please explain in logical terms, not emotional, on how this instructor is ripping off his students.  Afterward please justify why someone like Armani can charge thousands of dollars for a suit that cost less than $50.00 to make and none of you would blink an eye or call him a rip off artist.

Again, just because your clientele can not afford it or would not pay it does not mean this is an outrageous fee for this guy's clientele.


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## miguksaram (May 3, 2011)

shima said:


> Totally agree on this point, usually people put their price high for the wow factor "wow if he/she costs that much surely they must be good..." when in reality they're compensating for the fact that they're not good by trying to give a false impression.



So couldn't crappy instructors do just the opposite.  Charge really low price for that "He does for the love of the art so he must be good".  Show me the studies that you are basing this opinion on.


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## d1jinx (May 3, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> But if you spend $2000 to go to Korea, there is no guarantee you will pass!




It's not a "testing  Trip".  its an educational tour that goes around the same time every year (or other year) with many different activities.  A visit to the Kukkiwon is 1 of those activities every trip.  This year they "added the test".  

The total cost for the trip is $1995.00 and includes Round Trip  Airfare, Lodging, Meals and Ground Transportation. This trip will be at:


 Kukkiwon Special Training
 Kukkiwon Special Promotion Test
 Korea Taekwondo Association
 World Taekwondo Federation
 Taekwondo Park
 Temple Stay Meditation
 National Congress Center
 KTX &#8211; New High Speed Train
 Korean Traditional Falk Village
 Local City Shopping and much more fun events
Gumdo Competition with Korean and USA Team


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 3, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> According to which scientific study on the statistics of pricing vs. quality of instruction?


No hard statistics, but personal observation, similar observations being made by others who are long time practitioners and/or instructors/school owners.  

Note that I am not saying that cheap automatically means better, nor that expensive means bad.  But there is a difference between being merely expensive and being ridiculous.

Three grand for a test, for which the paper has not even been delivered after almost a year, is ridiculous.  Even if the paper was delivered on time, it is ridiculous.



miguksaram said:


> Why should we as martial artists feel ashamed to charge a premium price for our services? What is this stigma that says we have to live in poverty in order to enjoy what we do?


This is a disingenuous response, and an attempt to make this discussion about something that it is not about.  

You are implying that I said that we should live in poverty or that we should not charge a premium price for our services, and that is *not* what I said.  

Regarding _premium pricing_, that was never addressed.  I actually don't know what this man charges for his tuition.  

But I do know that three grand for a lousy pum test is ridiculous, given that the cost for registration is somewhere in the seventy to one hundred dollar range.

Imposing travel and lodging expenses *on top* of that is even more ridiculous.

Students should not be asked to absorb the travel cost for Kukkiwon masters for a pum test while also absorbing their own.  For three grand, a room should have been provided.

So, premium pricing: if the average monthly fee in an area is eighty to one hundred dollars, one hundred and fifty to two hundred is premium.  If the average blackbelt test is three hundred, five hundred is premium.  Additional costs for colored belt fees, fees for things like 'blackbelt clubs' and such, along with sales from the pro shop and any income from daycare is additional income.

I have never said nor implied that MA instructors should live in poverty.  Quite the opposite.

I am perfectly fine with school owners making a reasonable, comfortable, or even a more than comfortable living from their trade.  But I draw a line between making an honest living and stupidly inflating prices or shameless money grabs.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (May 3, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> No hard statistics, but personal observation, similar observations being made by others who are long time practitioners and/or instructors/school owners.
> 
> Note that I am not saying that cheap automatically means better, nor that expensive means bad.  But there is a difference between being merely expensive and being ridiculous.



But you did imply that with your statement: 





			
				Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> Not to mention that outrageous pricing is usually paired with suboptimal instruction.



What is considered outrageous pricing?  I know people who have paid $1K for their Dan rank. I know people who have paid $750 for a Dan rank.  I know people who have paid $500 for a Dan rank.  I know people who have paid $200 for a Dan rank and I know people who have paid $80.00 for a Dan rank.  At what point is price considered outrageous?  And at that point do we say that person is a suboptimal instructor?



			
				Daniel said:
			
		

> Three grand for a test, for which the paper has not even been delivered after almost a year, is ridiculous.  Even if the paper was delivered on time, it is ridiculous.


Which I don't disagree with.  I personally would not charge nor would I pay that much money.  However, as I explained, that is because people in my area would pay for such a thing.



> This is a disingenuous response, and an attempt to make this discussion about something that it is not about.


But it essentially it is what this is about, what we feel is a reasonable charge for a poom test.  Some would feel that $150.00 is outrageous when they can get it for $70.00  



			
				Daniel said:
			
		

> You are implying that I said that we should live in poverty or that we should not charge a premium price for our services, and that is *not* what I said.


It was more of a general question triggered from the discussion as a whole.  Many people feel that as martial artists it is cardinal sin to profit from the martial arts.  Does your opinion change if he would have charged his usual fee of $1500?  If so, why?



			
				Daniel said:
			
		

> Regarding _premium pricing_, that was never addressed.  I actually don't know what this man charges for his tuition.



What if he charged $500 a month for his lessons? Is he still ridiculous? 



			
				Daniel said:
			
		

> But I do know that three grand for a lousy pum test is ridiculous, given that the cost for registration is somewhere in the seventy to one hundred dollar range.


I believe paying $1500 for an an Armani suit is ridiculous but people do it all the time and it is made up of, at best $50 worth of material.  Point being that it may be ridiculous to us, but so what?  



			
				Daniel said:
			
		

> Imposing travel and lodging expenses *on top* of that is even more ridiculous.
> 
> Students should not be asked to absorb the travel cost for Kukkiwon masters for a pum test while also absorbing their own.  For three grand, a room should have been provided.


I don't disagree with you here.  



			
				Daniel said:
			
		

> So, premium pricing: if the average monthly fee in an area is eighty to one hundred dollars, one hundred and fifty to two hundred is premium.  If the average blackbelt test is three hundred, five hundred is premium.  Additional costs for colored belt fees, fees for things like 'blackbelt clubs' and such, along with sales from the pro shop and any income from daycare is additional income.
> 
> I have never said nor implied that MA instructors should live in poverty.  Quite the opposite.


Again, a question that was raised based on the discussion and not directed specifically at you.



			
				Daniel said:
			
		

> I am perfectly fine with school owners making a reasonable, comfortable, or even a more than comfortable living from their trade.  But I draw a line between making an honest living and stupidly inflating prices or shameless money grabs.
> 
> Daniel


Again, at what point is considered "stupid inflating"?


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 3, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> But you did imply that with your statement:


No, I didn't.



miguksaram said:


> What is considered outrageous pricing? I know people who have paid $1K for their Dan rank. I know people who have paid $750 for a Dan rank. I know people who have paid $500 for a Dan rank. I know people who have paid $200 for a Dan rank and I know people who have paid $80.00 for a Dan rank. *At what point is price considered outrageous?* And at that point do we say that person is a suboptimal instructor?


Given that the cost of a KKW dan/pum is the same for each and every school, the cost for a KKW dan/pum should not vary so widely. Most other comodities have an average markup/cost ratio. The belt itself costs money. If the belt is an Eosin Panther belt, then I would expect the cost of the promotion to reflect that. If the promotion includes other goodies, such as a new dobok, perhaps a weapon, or other MA related gear, then again, I would expect the cost to reflect that. If the promotion occurs *outside of normal class times*, then I would expect the cost to reflect this as well (twenty dollars is reasonable, given that there is no actual instruction going on).

At what point does it become ridiculous? When you are paying more than two hundred percent over what any additional items would cost retail (i.e. already marked up), then that is ridiculous. Association fees should not be considered a 'base cost commodity,' as it is not a product that you are selling. 

So If a test occurrs during regular scheduled class time and all the student gets is a cert, a belt, and a dobok, then a first pum/dan test should cost no more than two hundred dollars (an embroidered black belt is not all that expensive retail, and neither art doboks). If outside of normal class time, then two hundred and twenty is reasonable. If you are having it at some kind of cool venue, then three hundred. If the cool venue is such that the test would be much more than that, give the student the option to test in the school. Then if they wish to pay for a cool venue, then that is their decision. 

It is a fricking test that you are* required* to take if you wish to compete at certain levels or to progress further in the art. Turning it into an opportunity to fatten up your bottom line shows a lack of integrity. Unless your tuition rates are insanely low and it is the only way to meet your expenses and keep the school going, there is no excuse to charge more than about 150 to 200 dollars for a first pum/dan test that includes only a cert and a belt.

If the school is independent and has no association to pay a fee to, then the test should cost no more than fifty to a hundred dollars.



miguksaram said:


> Which I don't disagree with. I personally would not charge nor would I pay that much money. However, as I explained, that is because people in my area would pay for such a thing.


 
Do you mean people in your area would *not* pay for such a thing?



miguksaram said:


> But it essentially it is what this is about, what we feel is a reasonable charge for a poom test. Some would feel that $150.00 is outrageous when they can get it for $70.00


See above for my thoughts on reasonable.



miguksaram said:


> It was more of a general question triggered from the discussion as a whole. Many people feel that as martial artists it is cardinal sin to profit from the martial arts. Does your opinion change if he would have charged his usual fee of $1500? If so, why?


 


miguksaram said:


> What if he charged $500 a month for his lessons? Is he still ridiculous?


Without qualifications to the statement, yes. Really, if you are charging for colored belt testings and limit students to two classes a week, more than a hundred a month is unreasonable. And I live in a high income area, just to put it into perspective.



miguksaram said:


> I believe paying $1500 for an an Armani suit is ridiculous but people do it all the time and it is made up of, at best $50 worth of material. Point being that it may be ridiculous to us, but so what?


Sure, its ridiculous. But not as ridiclulous as three grand for a pum test. They should have bought their kid an Amani suit instead. Would have saved them over 1500 dollars done the kid more good.



miguksaram said:


> I don't disagree with you here.
> 
> 
> Again, a question that was raised based on the discussion and not directed specifically at you.
> ...


See above.

Daniel


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## granfire (May 3, 2011)

you guys are letting yourselves get sidetracked....


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## d1jinx (May 3, 2011)

granfire said:


> you guys are letting yourselves get sidetracked....


 
NO.  YOU'RE SIDETRACTING THEM by saying they are getting sidetracted.  so they are sidetracted by your sidetract that sidetract them in the first place...  :slapfight:


:lfao:

lol.


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## ralphmcpherson (May 3, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> According to which scientific study on the statistics of pricing vs. quality of instruction?
> 
> Why should we as martial artists feel ashamed to charge a premium price for our services?  What is this stigma that says we have to live in poverty in order to enjoy what we do?


I couldnt agree more. People only have to look at the cost of golf lessons, tennis lessons, piano lessons etc to see that martial arts instructors dont actually charge that much. I dont believe there is any proven correlation between high prices and poor instruction and as far as Im concerned if somone wants to get rich through teaching martial arts then good on them. I dont know where this idea comes from that its bordering on fraudulent to make good money out of teaching martial arts. My instructor has become quite wealthy out of a life time of instructing and I say good on him.


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> NO.  YOU'RE SIDETRACTING THEM by saying they are getting sidetracted.  so they are sidetracted by your sidetract that sidetract them in the first place...  :slapfight:
> 
> 
> :lfao:
> ...


But you just sidetracked his sidetrack which put us back on track which we took off track in order track down the track which this debate was all about.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I couldnt agree more. People only have to look at the cost of golf lessons, tennis lessons, piano lessons etc to see that martial arts instructors dont actually charge that much.* I dont believe there is any proven correlation between high prices and poor instruction* and as far as Im concerned if somone wants to get rich through teaching martial arts then good on them.


Again, that assertion has not been made on this thread.  I did point out that lousy instruction is often paired with high prices (not always).



ralphmcpherson said:


> *I dont know where this idea comes from that its bordering on fraudulent to make good money out of teaching martial arts.* My instructor has become quite wealthy out of a life time of instructing and I say good on him.


It didn't.  Until you brought it up.  Nobody has said anything of the sort on this thread.  However, an over 4000% mark up over an association registration fee for a kiddie belt is ridiculous.

If you want to charge more than three times the going rate for monthly tuition in your area, you had better be able to offer three times the quality of instruction.  Otherwise, you're gouging your customers.  

So, back to the OP: do you think that this is just peachy?  Remember, we are not talking about the school's tuition, or even the quality of their instruction.  Just a three grand plus expenses *pum* test for a kid whom the OP says is kind of okay.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Again, that assertion has not been made on this thread.  I did point out that lousy instruction is often paired with high prices (not always).
> 
> 
> It didn't.  Until you brought it up.  Nobody has said anything of the sort on this thread.  However, an over 4000% mark up over an association registration fee for a kiddie belt is ridiculous.



Now hold on there cowboy...it wasn't just for the belt.  If I recall they were also given sword set and an embroidered uniform as well. 



> If you want to charge more than three times the going rate for monthly tuition in your area, you had better be able to offer three times the quality of instruction.  Otherwise, you're gouging your customers.



Why are you gouging?  If I charge $500.00 a month and Instructor 'B' charges $100.00 a month and we are both equal in quality.  Why am I the gouger?  Simply because I place a higher monetary value on my services?  How is that gouging?  If people choose to pay a higher fee for my services so be it.  That is THEIR choice.



> So, back to the OP: do you think that this is just peachy?  Remember, we are not talking about the school's tuition, or even the quality of their instruction.  Just a three grand plus expenses *pum* test for a kid whom the OP says is kind of okay.
> 
> Daniel



I already made my thoughts clear on this.  The fact that the instructor did not follow through on his part is wrong.  He promised them a service and did not do what he was supposed to do.  Now the fact he charged $3K..again, I do find that crazy HOWEVER, he has every right to charge what he feel is appropriate. People paid it so why should I be upset at him for that?

As far as the kid only being ok, that has nothing to do with the rate he charged in the first place. I  have seen kids play cost for their poom belt and still suck worse than some 8th gup.  So the price charged for the testing is not a factor in my opinion.


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2011)

One more thing to keep in mind in all of this.  He charged $3K.  Someone paid.  What was the total result of this?  The person ended up quitting and going to a different school.  So there are consequences to this guy's pricing action.  He lost at least one student and I bet he will lose several more.  His short sightedness of the quick buck cost him much more in the long run.  

Which proves what I am trying to get across.  As instructors we have every right to charge what we feel is appropriate.  If people are not willing to pay, they will go else where.


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## Archtkd (May 4, 2011)

shima said:


> Totally agree on this point, usually people put their price high for the wow factor "wow if he/she costs that much surely they must be good..." when in reality they're compensating for the fact that they're not good by trying to give a false impression.



I hadn't seen this, but I now that I have read it it makes me wonder? Do you use this deeply flawed commercial philosophy to find a good martial arts school or buy any other services or products?


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Now hold on there cowboy...it wasn't just for the belt. If I recall they were also given sword set and an embroidered uniform as well.


If he got the sword set from Bugei, then I take it back; its a bargain.  If it was a set of wooden swords (unlikely to be anything else in a TKD school) or a forms sword set from Karate Depot, then it's still a rip off.



miguksaram said:


> Why are you gouging? If I charge $500.00 a month and Instructor 'B' charges $100.00 a month and we are both equal in quality. Why am I the gouger? Simply because I place a higher monetary value on my services? How is that gouging? If people choose to pay a higher fee for my services so be it. That is THEIR choice.


Except that you didn't respond to what I said: I did not say 'Instructor B.'  I said *the* *going rate for tuition in the area*.  Major difference. 



miguksaram said:


> I already made my thoughts clear on this. The fact that the instructor did not follow through on his part is wrong. He promised them a service and did not do what he was supposed to do. Now the fact he charged $3K..again, I do find that crazy HOWEVER, he has every right to charge what he feel is appropriate. People paid it so why should I be upset at him for that?


Yes, I agree; he has the *right* to charge what he wants.  Nobody said that he doesn't have the right.  People have the right to do all sorts of unethical things in this country.  Just because they have the right to do so doesn't make it ethical.



miguksaram said:


> As far as the kid only being ok, that has nothing to do with the rate he charged in the first place. I have seen kids play cost for their poom belt and still suck worse than some 8th gup. So the price charged for the testing is not a factor in my opinion.


Agreed.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (May 4, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If he got the sword set from Bugei, then I take it back; its a bargain.  If it was a set of wooden swords (unlikely to be anything else in a TKD school) or a forms sword set from Karate Depot, then it's still a rip off.


Most likely a set of 3 for $80.00 




> Except that you didn't respond to what I said: I did not say 'Instructor B.'  I said *the* *going rate for tuition in the area*.  Major difference.



Then we will say Instructor 'B' is charging regular rates for the area.  Now proceed.




> Yes, I agree; he has the *right* to charge what he wants.  Nobody said that he doesn't have the right.  People have the right to do all sorts of unethical things in this country.  Just because they have the right to do so doesn't make it ethical.


This is the part I have problems with.  You are calling this guy unethical for charging a large sum of money.  Why?  Unless he told her this lady that is what everyone charges or that the Korea is charging him that much or some other lie, he is not being unethical, greedy...yes...unethical...no.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 4, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Most likely a set of 3 for $80.00


Kind of figured that.





miguksaram said:


> Then we will say Instructor 'B' is charging regular rates for the area. Now proceed.


There's nowhere to proceed. If you're quality is equal to instructor B and instructor B's pricing is in line with the area's norm, then you are price gouging.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging



miguksaram said:


> This is the part I have problems with. You are calling this guy unethical for charging a large sum of money. Why? Unless he told her this lady that is what everyone charges or that the Korea is charging him that much or some other lie, he is not being unethical, greedy...yes...unethical...no.


Taking advantage of the ignorace of your students who trust you in order to charge them way too much money for something is unethical.  Why?  

Again, this is price gouging. 

Daniel


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## ralphmcpherson (May 4, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Again, that assertion has not been made on this thread.  I did point out that lousy instruction is often paired with high prices (not always).
> 
> 
> It didn't.  Until you brought it up.  Nobody has said anything of the sort on this thread.  However, an over 4000% mark up over an association registration fee for a kiddie belt is ridiculous.
> ...


I know it hasnt been brought up in this thread, but the idea that martial arts instructors who make good money out of what they do are frauds or are not doing the 'honourable thing' by keeping prices low is all over the net. Many times on many martial arts forums I read about people being very hard on instructors who treat it like a 'business' and believe that martial arts shouldnt be a business and that those profiting from MA's must be frauds. I know you never said as such, but a lot of people do feel this way unfortunately.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 5, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I know it hasnt been brought up in this thread, but the idea that martial arts instructors who make good money out of what they do are frauds or are not doing the 'honourable thing' by keeping prices low is all over the net. Many times on many martial arts forums I read about people being very hard on instructors who treat it like a 'business' and believe that martial arts shouldnt be a business and that those profiting from MA's must be frauds. I know you never said as such, but a lot of people do feel this way unfortunately.


I 100% agree that that mentality is out there.  But bringing it up in this thread without any sort of qualifier implies that criticism of a massive price gouge on a pum test equates to espousing such a view when all it is is criticism of a massive price gouge on a pum test.

Daniel


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## msmitht (May 5, 2011)

What is a fair price? You have to take into consideration many things. I have no problem with making money as an instructor. Charge what you want for classes. But to rape parents for a cert is outrageous. I finally submitted her to kkw and her cert will be here in 6 weeks. Mom thinks it is normal and the reason I charge less is that I am not a gm. LOL!


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## IcemanSK (May 5, 2011)

msmitht said:


> What is a fair price? You have to take into consideration many things. I have no problem with making money as an instructor. Charge what you want for classes. But to rape parents for a cert is outrageous. I finally submitted her to kkw and her cert will be here in 6 weeks. Mom thinks it is normal and the reason I charge less is that I am not a gm. LOL!



Regardless of your current title, hopefully she simply sees the difference between you & her daughter's previous instructor is that you are a man of your word.


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## Archtkd (May 6, 2011)

msmitht said:


> What is a fair price? You have to take into consideration many things. I have no problem with making money as an instructor. Charge what you want for classes. But to rape parents for a cert is outrageous. I finally submitted her to kkw and her cert will be here in 6 weeks. Mom thinks it is normal and the reason I charge less is that I am not a gm. LOL!


 
The details get more messy. Denial occupies a large part of the minds of the abused and exploited. Also, few parents admit failure to thier children. The GM must be swimming in cash if he has a large number of children with such parents.


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## msmitht (May 11, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> The details get more messy. Denial occupies a large part of the minds of the abused and exploited. Also, few parents admit failure to thier children. The GM must be swimming in cash if he has a large number of children with such parents.



Mom says he drives a bentley...no hot chocolate machine though...think his is atu school.


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## miguksaram (May 11, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Mom says he drives a bentley...no hot chocolate machine though...think his is atu school.


I think she is lying.  How can he be driving a Bentley if he has not hot chocolate machine.  I just don't make no sense.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 11, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Mom says he drives a bentley...no hot chocolate machine though...think his is atu school.


No hot chocolate machine????  Heresy!  I'm quitting my school because they don't have one!!  How dare an MA school not furnish students with hot chocolate!

Now, all is forgiven if they bring it in from the local coffee shoppe.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (May 11, 2011)

How can anybody get a Bentley I have just order my machine here comes the money now......
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Of course I will also get a donut machine and add a sushi bar just for good measure.


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## puunui (May 11, 2011)

Some martial arts practitioners out there feel that anyone who teaches full time and makes his/her living from teaching martial arts is no different than the instructor who charges $3000 as the 1st Poom examination fee. All of the Kwan founders, for example, all had full time jobs and taught martial arts in non-commercial space settings.


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## andyjeffries (May 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> Some martial arts practitioners out there feel that anyone who teaches full time and makes his/her living from teaching martial arts is no different than the instructor who charges $3000 as the 1st Poom examination fee. All of the Kwan founders, for example, all had full time jobs and taught martial arts in non-commercial space settings.



It's funny... I was actually trying to work out earlier (in regard to the club I'm starting in September) how low I can get the fees and cover the hall hire charges.  I have no interest in making money from Taekwondo - I just want to pass it on and help others. Interesting that the Kwan founders seemed to have a similar method.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 11, 2011)

Personally, I am fine with a for profit school where the instructor does nothing but run the school and teach.  But, when one's livelihood is tied to the business end of the school, economics can enter the decision making process at points where for, the good of the school's integrity, they should not.

Daniel


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