# At what point do you act?



## Kurai (Jul 23, 2013)

This situation occurred in my neck of the woods.  How would you handle it?  You're out having dinner with the family or friends and trouble shows up.

http://carsonnow.org/story/07/22/20...ing-gun-manager-chef-carson-city-olive-garden


I'm interested in all opinions whether you carry or not.  I'm sure of how I'd handle the situation up to a point.  Or if certain circumstances occurred.  Apparently there was a point of a really big "What if?", that I'm trying to determine what might be the best course of action.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 23, 2013)

In general, it depends. I think you should act as soon as you feel like youre in danger. ACTUAL danger, not potential danger. Youre in danger every time you drive a car. Act can mean fight or flight in my eyes, mind you.

In this situation specifically, comply. He just pulled a gun where people could see him. If he wanted to kill you he doesnt stand to gain anything by brandishing the weapon first, or moving you out of sight after hes already been seen, he can just do it. He wants something, so give it to him. He wants to go into the back room? Fine. Compliance has the best chance of survival. He asks me to get in his car? Now comes the part where you do whatever it takes to get away.


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2013)

Let me start with a brief summary of the article: A guy walked into a restuarant, draws a gun, and proceeds to threaten the staff and manager. Police received several calls, and subsequently arrested the suspect at his residence. Nobody was injured at the restaurant.

The answer is going to vary with specifics. If I'm there with my family, all I may do is make a phone call, unless I believe that the only option to protect lives is for me to take direct action, and that I can do so with reasonable safety for my family. Take note that the police received several 911 calls from the restaurant, so a lot of people just that: called it in. And that's often all the action that you should take.

If I'm there alone, or with colleagues in plain clothes... well, the answer there could be very different. I kind of suspect the gunman would have been rather surprised, and wrapped up for the guys in uniform. 

Things to think about: I haven't found a link, but I remember being told a cautionary tale in the academy about an off duty officer at a Mcdonalds where there was a robbery or some sort of shooting. He was there with his daughter, and ended up shooting the suspect -- but his daughter was shot during the exchange. That's not a price I'm willing to pay... 

If you're carrying a gun, and you choose to take action, what will you do if the guy surrenders? How will you keep from being mistaken for the suspect? How will you detain the bad guy? 

If you get into a shooting match... what is behind the suspect? Are you going to be flinging rounds towards traffic, innocent bystanders? What about cover for yourself? What about the folks around and behind you? Are they willing to volunteer, too?


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## Kurai (Jul 23, 2013)

Two things that stood out to me from the articles about it I've found:  

1.  He chambered a round while confronting the chef.  Up to this point he was brandishing.  After chambering the round is he posturing or ready to pull the trigger?

2.  When police took him into custody, he didn't go willingly and put up resistance.


On the direct action front, do you draw on him after he chambers the round and points his weapon at the chef?  Do you wait it out, hoping he does not shoot the chef, while being prepared to act?  This is where, for me, it gets sticky...... As jks9199 mentioned you have running bystanders, so you have a pretty chaotic scene.  IHOP is still pretty fresh in people's minds around here.  

And of course, this:



jks9199 said:


> If you're carrying a gun, and you choose to take action, what will you do if the guy surrenders? How will you keep from being mistaken for the suspect? How will you detain the bad guy?
> 
> If you get into a shooting match... what is behind the suspect? Are you going to be flinging rounds towards traffic, innocent bystanders? What about cover for yourself? What about the folks around and behind you? Are they willing to volunteer, too?


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## Cyriacus (Jul 23, 2013)

Kurai said:


> Two things that stood out to me from the articles about it I've found:
> 
> 1.  He chambered a round while confronting the chef.  Up to this point he was brandishing.  After chambering the round is he posturing or ready to pull the trigger?
> 
> ...



If he wanted to just shoot him, if im not mistaken you can just pull the trigger on most handguns and itll take care of the rest.


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2013)

Kurai said:


> Two things that stood out to me from the articles about it I've found:
> 
> 1. He chambered a round while confronting the chef. Up to this point he was brandishing. After chambering the round is he posturing or ready to pull the trigger?
> 
> ...



He was brandishing the gun, whether loaded or not, as long as he was putting people in fear of being shot.  He was in idiot for brandishing a weapon without a round in the chamber.

The time to act is a tactical call, and there's a lot that goes into it.  Positioning, line of fire, ability to make a reliable kill shot... all of those and more are factors.  Probably the best time is as soon as you see the gun...  if you can do so safely.  But there may be grounds to delay, too.  There is so much that is really very situational.



Cyriacus said:


> If he wanted to just shoot him, if im not mistaken you can just pull the trigger on most handguns and itll take care of the rest.



Not sure what you mean.  Generally, you have to chamber the initial round manually on pistol.  The typical method of doing so is to work the slide as if the gun was fired.  This strips the first round from the magazine and chambers it.  In a true double action gun, each trigger pull must both cock the hammer/firing pin and then release it.  In a single action gun, the hammer or firing pin is preset, typically through the motion of the slide during recoil or that initial chambering.  Some are double action/single action, which uses the trigger pull to cock the first shot, but then resets it through the recoil motion.  So... Not sure what you meant by "the gun takes care of the rest."  If you're brandishing a gun without a round in the chamber, you can pull the trigger all you want; it won't go bang.  Even with a full magazine.  (Yes, this is a common tv/movie error...  You always see the hero chasing the bad guy, and they get up to the end of the chase... and he racks the slide... so he was chasing the bad guy with an unloaded gun!)  By the way... on many guns, you can't reliable tell if there's a round in the chamber from a distance or from the business end...


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## Cyriacus (Jul 23, 2013)

Ah, okay. Its just last time i handled a pistol pulling the trigger chambered it if it wasnt already. If thats unusual, um... heh. Now i kinda wanna find out what i was shooting


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 24, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Ah, okay. Its just last time i handled a pistol pulling the trigger chambered it if it wasnt already. If thats unusual, um... heh. *Now i kinda wanna find out what i was shooting*



Please do and let us know.  I have never heard of such a thing, but I'm always willing to learn.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 24, 2013)

oftheherd1 said:


> Please do and let us know.  I have never heard of such a thing, but I'm always willing to learn.



Just did (two hours ago). Misunderstanding on my part - The pistols we were using at the time were a bit modified. Pulling the trigger once disengaged its safety. Im not a gun person, at the time i didnt know the difference, and i guess i remembered it as i understood it at the time. Just... you know. Disregard my previous. It was ill informed.


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## pgsmith (Jul 24, 2013)

It seems to me that the perpetrator had no real intention of shooting anyone. This can be seen by the fact that he started the confrontation by brandishing a gun without a round in the chamber, and then chambered a round because it is very intimidating since everyone is familiar with it from TV shows. I think drawing on the fellow and getting in a shooting match would have put a large number of other folks in jeopardy unnecessarily.


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## jks9199 (Jul 24, 2013)

pgsmith said:


> It seems to me that the perpetrator had no real intention of shooting anyone. This can be seen by the fact that he started the confrontation by brandishing a gun without a round in the chamber, and then chambered a round because it is very intimidating since everyone is familiar with it from TV shows. I think drawing on the fellow and getting in a shooting match would have put a large number of other folks in jeopardy unnecessarily.



Hindsight is wonderful for seeing that, but as I said, there are very few handguns that you can look at, especially at a distance or from the business end, and tell if a round is chambered.  For example, Glock handguns do have a tactile/visual indicator of a chambered round.  It's part of the ejector and it protrudes SLIGHTLY from the side of the slide when a round is chambered.  Like about 1/32 of an inch or so...  You can feel it, and you can see it if you're close enough.  But not from a distance.

You point a gun at me or someone in my presence, and you've volunteered to relinquish your right to keep breathing.  If I can do so with acceptable safety for those I'm responsible for and those around me -- I'm going to revoke your breathing priviliges.  If I find out later the gun was empty... Well, all you had to do was lower the gun.  I'm not waiting because the only way to know for sure is to let you pull that trigger.  Even then -- you might only be a tap-rack from getting a round off.  I can't speak for others, but I've fired 2 rounds in 3 seconds with a malfunction, and both hit center mass.  I know someone who even pulled off a magazine change and did it...


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## MJS (Jul 25, 2013)

Kurai said:


> This situation occurred in my neck of the woods.  How would you handle it?  You're out having dinner with the family or friends and trouble shows up.
> 
> http://carsonnow.org/story/07/22/20...ing-gun-manager-chef-carson-city-olive-garden
> 
> ...



Well, for starters, I'm going to assume that this guy had the gun illegally, and if he didn't then shame on the person who granted him a CCW permit.  Given his past criminal history, he shouldn't own any guns.

As for what I'd do....well, the first thing I'd do is attempt to get the hell out of there.  Assuming he wasn't making direct threats to me, I'd most likely attempt to get out of the place altogether, or at least somewhere away from this guy, and call the cops.  IMHO, given the odds that the place was full of customers, I think that doing anything to cause this guy to start shooting, would be a big mistake.


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## pgsmith (Jul 25, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Hindsight is wonderful for seeing that, but as I said, there are very few handguns that you can look at, especially at a distance or from the business end, and tell if a round is chambered. For example, Glock handguns do have a tactile/visual indicator of a chambered round. It's part of the ejector and it protrudes SLIGHTLY from the side of the slide when a round is chambered. Like about 1/32 of an inch or so... You can feel it, and you can see it if you're close enough. But not from a distance.
> 
> You point a gun at me or someone in my presence, and you've volunteered to relinquish your right to keep breathing. If I can do so with acceptable safety for those I'm responsible for and those around me -- I'm going to revoke your breathing priviliges. If I find out later the gun was empty... Well, all you had to do was lower the gun. I'm not waiting because the only way to know for sure is to let you pull that trigger. Even then -- you might only be a tap-rack from getting a round off. I can't speak for others, but I've fired 2 rounds in 3 seconds with a malfunction, and both hit center mass. I know someone who even pulled off a magazine change and did it...



  I said absolutely nothing about looking for these things as an indicator of whether to shoot or not. I was looking at in hind sight to point out that the response that was taken, calling 911, was the appropriate response and confronting the fellow would have put a lot of people in jeopardy. 

  I understand that every situation is different, but there are a lot of people out there that think that having a concealed carry permit means that they should start shooting in situations like this one. For a non-professional without all of the training, shooting first is rarely the proper response. For professionals, it is purely tactical and almost impossible to call without being in the actual situation.


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## Zero (Jul 26, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Not sure what you mean.  Generally, you have to chamber the initial round manually on pistol.  The typical method of doing so is to work the slide as if the gun was fired.  This strips the first round from the magazine and chambers it.  In a true double action gun, each trigger pull must both cock the hammer/firing pin and then release it.  In a single action gun, the hammer or firing pin is preset, typically through the motion of the slide during recoil or that initial chambering.  Some are double action/single action, which uses the trigger pull to cock the first shot, but then resets it through the recoil motion.  So... Not sure what you meant by "the gun takes care of the rest."  If you're brandishing a gun without a round in the chamber, you can pull the trigger all you want; it won't go bang.  Even with a full magazine.  (Yes, this is a common tv/movie error...  You always see the hero chasing the bad guy, and they get up to the end of the chase... and he racks the slide... so he was chasing the bad guy with an unloaded gun!)  By the way... on many guns, you can't reliable tell if there's a round in the chamber from a distance or from the business end...



Is it unlawful (or not recommened professional practice) for cops to go about with a racked/chambered pistol in the holster outside of known confrontation?  I would have thought the delay in chambering would not be acceptable. I don't think there are laws  preventing this in the general population (where carry is permitted) or re LEOs.  Simply have chambered with the safety on, yeah?  Also, a double-action, rather than internal firing pin, as you say would be totally safe while chambered.  This is why I would have thought, outside of pre-chambered, a revolver would beat a semi-auto.  On a double with empty under hammer you just pull trigger with no need to slide.  Mind you, it must be scary if you have kids about etc if you keep your gun chambered/live.  These are genuine questions as I don't own a pistol but used to hunt a fair bit when younger.

I would have to agree with JKS that even if I saw a guy draw a gun and not rack, I would assume a bullet's chambered from the get go and act accordingly, too risky to assume otherwise.  Am not saying that what went down in the restaurant by way of response is not the right way - obviously it was in this instance, as the bum's arrested and no one (particularly innocent bystanders) caught one.


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## Balrog (Aug 14, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> In general, it depends. I think you should act as soon as you feel like youre in danger. ACTUAL danger, not potential danger. Youre in danger every time you drive a car. Act can mean fight or flight in my eyes, mind you.
> 
> In this situation specifically, comply. He just pulled a gun where people could see him. If he wanted to kill you he doesnt stand to gain anything by brandishing the weapon first, or moving you out of sight after hes already been seen, he can just do it. He wants something, so give it to him. He wants to go into the back room? Fine. Compliance has the best chance of survival. He asks me to get in his car? Now comes the part where you do whatever it takes to get away.


Don't go in the back room, either.  He wants you back there so he can kill you, same as getting into the car.  Start fighting like crazy because you are going to die if you don't.


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