# Feels awkward evading punches when practicing trapping drills



## UnelaborateYetComplex (Feb 13, 2018)

I'm enrolled in a JKD school that heavily teaches Professor Gary Dill's (1st Gen student) Jeet Kune Do combatives system. In this school, when executing trapping and punching drills with a partner, it's primarily encouraged that we move about 45 degrees off of the center for an oncoming punch and execute our trapping and punching technique (Our partners are encouraged to throw a punch to the nose directly as if they aim to punch the other partner in the face). The problem I have is parrying and moving off the center to avoid the hit. For me, it feels awkward, as if I'm not exactly as fluid as I feel I should be. 
Any tips from a more experienced JKD student/practitioner? I've currently been enrolled in this school for almost a year now.


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## Headhunter (Feb 13, 2018)

Practice


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## Martial D (Feb 13, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Practice


Also, practice more.


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## drop bear (Feb 13, 2018)

move off line when you punch. Not when you parry. Which would be awkward as you would be pushing one way and walking the other way.


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## Martial D (Feb 13, 2018)

drop bear said:


> move off line when you punch. Not when you parry. Which would be awkward as you would be pushing one way and walking the other way.


It varies. Even some boxers move off line to Parry(Lomenchenco for instance)

In many styles shifting your line(moving off center) and parrying/blocking/trapping is pretty standard(WC as an example)


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## drop bear (Feb 13, 2018)

Martial D said:


> It varies. Even some boxers move off line to Parry(Lomenchenco for instance)
> 
> In many styles shifting your line(moving off center) and parrying/blocking/trapping is pretty standard(WC as an example)



Yeah sorta. If you are just throwing some sort of cover arm out yeah. If you actually wanted to exert some kind of force while moving away it is going to feel really hinky.

Actually if you did the lomenchenco style skip all the way around you could probably pull that off.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 13, 2018)

UnelaborateYetComplex said:


> move about 45 degrees off of the center for an oncoming punch ...


You may try the following footwork. If your and your opponent are in

1. uniform stance - same side forward, always move your back foot,
2. mirror stance - different side forward, always move your leading foot,

to line up with his both feet. It's not the leading hand punch (jab) that you need to worry about. It's the back hand punch (cross) that you try to stay away.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2018)

It's your stance.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 13, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah sorta. If you are just throwing some sort of cover arm out yeah. If you actually wanted to exert some kind of force while moving away it is going to feel really hinky.
> 
> Actually if you did the lomenchenco style skip all the way around you could probably pull that off.


In general, I find it you move off line while parrying, it's not a real parry. It's really just evading, and the parry is just a sort of insurance


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## UnelaborateYetComplex (Feb 13, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> In general, I find it you move off line while parrying, it's not a real parry. It's really just evading, and the parry is just a sort of insurance



Yeah, this is something my master and senior ranks stress a ton. We're taught that the parry should aid in pushing off the center, as to move your feet at the same time while weaving your head out of the way. 
Perhaps practice is the only way. I just need some basis off of which I can practice with footwork at home alone.
At almost purple belt in Hapkido I'm just now getting the hang of proper footwork and deep stance, but I learned very quickly that JKD has its own set of footwork nuances.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 13, 2018)

UnelaborateYetComplex said:


> Yeah, this is something my master and senior ranks stress a ton. We're taught that the parry should aid in pushing off the center, as to move your feet at the same time while weaving your head out of the way.
> Perhaps practice is the only way. I just need some basis off of which I can practice with footwork at home alone.
> At almost purple belt in Hapkido I'm just now getting the hang of proper footwork and deep stance, but I learned very quickly that JKD has its own set of footwork nuances.


Personally, for that particular footwork, I do it closer to 60 degree, but it can be very tough/awkward to do it at 45 until you get used to it. The two pieces of advice I can give you is: don't step too far off-line (side-stepping rather than in), if you do it's very tough to get out of that habit, and try sometimes to do it without the hands at all, to let you focus on the feet more and make sure you don't need the hands involved.

The key is practice practice practice, if you need to find someone who lives with you (brother, father, roommate, whatever) to just feed you punches to drill it.


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## drop bear (Feb 13, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> In general, I find it you move off line while parrying, it's not a real parry. It's really just evading, and the parry is just a sort of insurance



Yeah. But I think he is trying for some sort of parry trap. Which would either require some sort of tricky footwork. Angle out and jump straight back in or a full step with the rear leg and then pivot and change stance or just being awkward.


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## Buka (Feb 14, 2018)

Welcome to Martialtalk, UnelaborateYetComplex.


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## TMA17 (Feb 14, 2018)

That's what I was taught at both WC schools I went to.  Is your center facing his shoulder or his center at that point?

I think moving around and being evasive is good.  That comes with good practice of footwork whether it be boxing or WC/JKD.


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## Anarax (Feb 15, 2018)

UnelaborateYetComplex said:


> I'm enrolled in a JKD school that heavily teaches Professor Gary Dill's (1st Gen student) Jeet Kune Do combatives system. In this school, when executing trapping and punching drills with a partner, it's primarily encouraged that we move about 45 degrees off of the center for an oncoming punch and execute our trapping and punching technique (Our partners are encouraged to throw a punch to the nose directly as if they aim to punch the other partner in the face). The problem I have is parrying and moving off the center to avoid the hit. For me, it feels awkward, as if I'm not exactly as fluid as I feel I should be.
> Any tips from a more experienced JKD student/practitioner? I've currently been enrolled in this school for almost a year now.



There are multiple styles that parry and move off at a 45 degree angle. Practicing it will help make it feel more natural.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE (Feb 16, 2018)

UnelaborateYetComplex said:


> I'm enrolled in a JKD school that heavily teaches Professor Gary Dill's (1st Gen student) Jeet Kune Do combatives system. In this school, when executing trapping and punching drills with a partner, it's primarily encouraged that we move about 45 degrees off of the center for an oncoming punch and execute our trapping and punching technique (Our partners are encouraged to throw a punch to the nose directly as if they aim to punch the other partner in the face). The problem I have is parrying and moving off the center to avoid the hit. For me, it feels awkward, as if I'm not exactly as fluid as I feel I should be.
> Any tips from a more experienced JKD student/practitioner? I've currently been enrolled in this school for almost a year now.



Couple tips that I can suggest with out seeing what your movements look like.   

1.  Think of the movement as being in...Or corkscrewing your body inward.    As the punch comes toward you.... if your are throwing a punch... you should think of your hand moving first.  As it starts to progress forward use your footwork and corkscrew slightly off the line and in.   Harder than it sounds.   What helps?....

2.  Balance and footwork.  Be in a good stance... Balance.  This will allow you to respond quicker.    Pay attention to your own body when you see his punch coming.  Are you making any little extra movements that might slow you down.  And extra shift in weight to push off on etc...    These are important to eliminate to respond in time.

3.   Practice... Go slow.   Refine your movement so that it's simple and balanced.   Speed up with time... and balance.

3.   Awareness.  No if you are not fast... Think about seeing the attack earlier.   Obviously if the attack comes from a huge fighting measure you will have more time to respond.   But we want to keep a perfect fighting measure.   And someone will not throw from far away anyway.   So as I teach.... I teach people to watch body movement all the time...Even prior to someone stepping forward or back or sideways etc.... there is shifts in weight.   Esp. people who never train non- telegraphic movement.   So if you can spot this movement.... then you can have extra time...   So now you don't have to be super fast.

4.  As everyone else said..... "Practice"...   It comes...


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## yak sao (Feb 16, 2018)

Try this.
This may not be your exact footwork, I'll just use it to illustrate my point.
If you are standing with left leg forward:

Stage 1. Footwork only. Keep hands up as you step offline with left foot to 45 degree angle

Stage 2  step off 45 degrees with left foot but only parry with front hand...ie pak sao

Stage 3 step off 45 degrees as above  but only punch with rear hand... no parry with front hand

Stage 4.  Put it all together...hands begin at same time, just a split second before the step, so you're not leading with your face.  your pak, punch and step all end at the same time.

If you need to break it down even more, isolate the parry only without a step, punch only without a step, then the simultaneous parry and punch without a step.

 Work on being smooth with your movements instead of fast. If you train for smoothness then speed comes naturally as your movements become second nature.
If you try to go too fast too soon, you will stiffen up and your movement will be jerky.


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## UnelaborateYetComplex (Feb 22, 2018)

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martialtalk, UnelaborateYetComplex.



Thank you for the warm welcome, Buka *salute*


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## UnelaborateYetComplex (Feb 22, 2018)

Thanks to everyone for the tips. I'll be sure to keep these in mind and practice accordingly. *salute*


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## skribs (May 14, 2018)

drop bear said:


> move off line when you punch. Not when you parry. Which would be awkward as you would be pushing one way and walking the other way.



That's how I've done it since my white belt in TKD and I've never felt awkward doing that motion.


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## JKDJade (Sep 23, 2020)

UnelaborateYetComplex said:


> I'm enrolled in a JKD school that heavily teaches Professor Gary Dill's (1st Gen student) Jeet Kune Do combatives system. In this school, when executing trapping and punching drills with a partner, it's primarily encouraged that we move about 45 degrees off of the center for an oncoming punch and execute our trapping and punching technique (Our partners are encouraged to throw a punch to the nose directly as if they aim to punch the other partner in the face). The problem I have is parrying and moving off the center to avoid the hit. For me, it feels awkward, as if I'm not exactly as fluid as I feel I should be.
> Any tips from a more experienced JKD student/practitioner? I've currently been enrolled in this school for almost a year now.


 
The theory is spot on. You just need to take your time, gain flow, then muscle memory....in JKD some of the most simplest moves take years to get down. That's why many JKD studios only take experienced students. Hope you are still sticking with it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 24, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> In general, I find it you move off line while parrying, it's not a real parry. It's really just evading, and the parry is just a sort of insurance


The parry is back up for when timing is off.   In this case it's a technique that acknowledges the reality that no one is perfect. Miscalculations happen. Most good techniques take this into account


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 24, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The parry is back up for when timing is off.   In this case it's a technique that acknowledges the reality that no one is perfect. Miscalculations happen. Most good techniques take this into account


I met up with/did a brief session with a silat instructor a few years back. We went back and forth, but he demonstrated a throw on me, and asked me to pay attention to what was actually causing the throw. He did the throw, and it turns out that multiple things were causing it.

He explained to me that in silat, you always want to have at least 2 things, preferably 3, causing an actual throw-where any one of them would succeed on it's own without the other two. The point is that if either you mess up the other two, or you're in a situation where you can't do them, you'll still succeed. That stuck with me.


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## wab25 (Sep 24, 2020)

UnelaborateYetComplex said:


> For me, it feels awkward, as if I'm not exactly as fluid as I feel I should be.


There are a number of drills that we do, where I felt all awkward and unfluid. I still feel that way during many of them. This used to bother me some. (actually, it still bothers me some... but I am using the phrase "used to" in order to seem like I got passed it.) Then, one day, while sparring my partner pointed out that what I had gotten him with, was that silly drill I was complaining about. This has happened a number of different times.

During the drill, we are focused on the steps of the drill. Where the feet are, what angle are we moving at, what are the hands doing. We do so much self evaluation, because we are focused on the drill. (sometimes this focus gets in the way) When you get into sparring or more live scenarios... you are not focused on the drill. You are focused on not getting hit or getting your shot in. If you have drilled properly, the movements from those drills, will happen without you having to think "Okay, now do drill #7." In fact, if you try to do a specific drill, you hardly ever get it, you end up forcing it. But, over time, you will start to notice the stuff you drill, will show up in your sparring. Its a very neat experience. Try not to act too surprised when it happens.

The other part... after seeing a drill movement show up, spontaneously while sparring, even a number of times, never makes the drill less awkward, at least not for me.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I met up with/did a brief session with a silat instructor a few years back. We went back and forth, but he demonstrated a throw on me, and asked me to pay attention to what was actually causing the throw. He did the throw, and it turns out that multiple things were causing it.
> 
> He explained to me that in silat, you always want to have at least 2 things, preferably 3, causing an actual throw-where any one of them would succeed on it's own without the other two. The point is that if either you mess up the other two, or you're in a situation where you can't do them, you'll still succeed. That stuck with me.



Do you have a video or something. I am struggling to picture that.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2020)

anyway. Concept wise to push a guy or punch effectively you basically have to be facing them. Sort of.(a body rip will be different) So generally when you create a flank you then turn towards them. So you are looking at them from side on.

In reality you almost never have time to do this. But the good thing is you don't have to wind up 90 or 45 degrees. A tiny angle is a big advantage. 

So mabye the flow issue is you are just trying to get too far around when you don't necessarily have to.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 24, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Do you have a video or something. I am struggling to picture that.


Nope, this was a few years ago. And I don't really know silat so wouldn't know what to look for. But imagine a throw(or whatever terminology you use) where you're doing a sweep with your foot, and that sweep would work. Now imagine a throw where you're using your arm/upper body to muck up their balance and follow through with a throw that way. Which would also work on it's own. 

Now imagine doing both at the same time (assuming they both throw in the same direction), and as long as one of them works, it doesn't matter if the other gets caught. From the conversation it's good if you mess up, but also good if the person tries to stop one, and fails to realize the other. A different way to deal with a counter than normal.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> In general, I find it you move off line while parrying, it's not a real parry. It's really just evading, and the parry is just a sort of insurance


This is, I think, the intent. If either one fails, the other gives you a chance of still not being hit.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 24, 2020)

drop bear said:


> anyway. Concept wise to push a guy or punch effectively you basically have to be facing them. Sort of.(a body rip will be different) So generally when you create a flank you then turn towards them. So you are looking at them from side on.
> 
> In reality you almost never have time to do this. But the good thing is you don't have to wind up 90 or 45 degrees. A tiny angle is a big advantage.
> 
> So mabye the flow issue is you are just trying to get too far around when you don't necessarily have to.


A lot of the low-speed drills I've seen for this kind of movement tend to exaggerate the amount of movement, so that may indeed be the case.


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