# first move in a REAL fight



## thaiboxer (Apr 8, 2002)

What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move?


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## Ty K. Doe (Apr 8, 2002)

Perhaps trap his lead hand and give him a good backfist to the bridge of the nose.

Given the fact that I have to fight.

A good swift kick in the nuts might do the trick.


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## GouRonin (Apr 8, 2002)

All of these scenarios that people keep putting out are subjective. They remind me of the kids at my friend's Dojo that ask me, "Could you take out a guy with a knife?" If I say yes, they say, "Can you take out 2 guys with guns?" If I say yes, they say, "Can you take out 4 guys with uzi's while you are in a pit with a tiger?" (Usually I respond that after 4 guys I can't promise no one will get hurt)

It's all situational. It's fun to play but until it rises you don't know for sure what you'd do. I work in the psychiatric field. I know of a case where a few patients threatened a guy who in response reaches into his pants and started throwing poo at them and chased them screaming, "You want some of this?! Huh?! DO YOU?!"

I never would have thought of that.

I think that these ideas are fun and definately get the brain thinking but there is no right or wrong.

Ok. Having said that I'd lead off by spitting in his face. Then I would start my attack.
:asian:


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## Cthulhu (Apr 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> It's all situational. It's fun to play but until it rises you don't know for sure what you'd do. I work in the psychiatric field. I know of a case where a few patients threatened a guy who in response reaches into his pants and started throwing poo at them and chased them screaming, "You want some of this?! Huh?! DO YOU?!"
> *



Um...we never learned a defense against *that*.  Ew.

I agree, it's near impossible to give a concrete answer to that question.  Usually, if asked something like that, I would respond "It depends."  There are too many factors, too many variables, too many unknowns, etc etc etc.  If the guy was taller than me, I'd probably do something different than I would against a shorter person.  What's the environment like?  Are there witnesses?  Does he/she have friends around?  

Cthulhu

and *no*...I don't want any of that.  ew.


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## Shadowdean (Apr 8, 2002)

Run like hell if possible.


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## Monkey King (Apr 8, 2002)

I think we should create a new art.



Call it......Poo Do. 

The way of the poo. (which you don't want to be...in the way that is.)


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## don bohrer (Apr 8, 2002)

Nut shot, then reverse punch to the jaw! 

Honestly I would assume a non agressive, but ready posture and try talking. My first impulse to let the guy close the gap and catch him moving. If for some reason I had to make the first move I would feint with my hands, and kick low (nuts) then a reverse punch to the jaw. However the setup sure sounds like an agressive lunging front thrust kick could work as well. Ok who grades these reports? Did I just get my lunch money taken?


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## arnisador (Apr 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by don bohrer _
> 
> *Honestly I would assume a non agressive, but ready posture and try talking.  *



Put me down for this too, if simply walking away isn't feasible. The talking is both an attempt to de-escalate and a stall while I look around for options/improvised weapons/other dangers. After that it depends on how he comes in or more generally how the threat develops. One wants to be aware of the likelihood that he has a buddy somewhere, for example, or a weapon.


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## thaiboxer (Apr 9, 2002)

ok i know its a hypothetical question and there ar emany variables, but really i was only after say a general answer, to see if any were the same or whatever.
Lets just say its in a pub with limited room to move (because its a bit squishy) and this bloke has merely made eye contact, and then procedded to fire up.


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> 
> *I think we should create a new art.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately this style already exists at every McDojo out there.  They all spread the crap about how effective they are and all they really do is make your wallet lighter.


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## Chiduce (Apr 10, 2002)

I would just back up until i was out of his range if he was not attacking. Now if he was attacking say with a right strike. The typical left outward block and trap would do if he was not lunging; if he was lunging in his strike the trap would pull him into a back right reverse elbow to the philtrum, setting him up for a finishing left leopards paw/fist strike to the throat. If there is no lunge the trap would take his arm's wrist clockwise palm-up  exposing his side targets and i would forearm break the right elbow, right dragon's head to the temple transformed into a tiger's claw rake to the eye's, continuing with a right tiger's claw to the ear with the fingers digging in behind the lobe with my right thumb digging into his left eye socket finishing with a left tiger's claw to his neck choke throwing and pulling him from the thumb eye socket ear lobe claw over my right positioned leg to the deck! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Yari (Apr 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> 
> *What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move? *



Go into matrix - mode and beat the **** out of him.

No, serious. I agree that this is very siuation dependent. I've tried this a couple of times, and each time I reacted differently. One time a move just out of his reach and gave him "the look". I think he sensed I knew what I was doing. The other time I closed i on him and placed my hans , lightly, on his arms, making sure that he couldn't head but me. He calmed down, and later got thrown out of the disco... (yeps it was in that golden age.....)


/Yari


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## Damian Mavis (Apr 10, 2002)

"started throwing poo at them and chased them screaming, "You want some of this?! Huh?! DO YOU?!" 

I never would have thought of that."

OMG I spit milk out all over my screen! thanks!

Ok I would go either eyes, throat, groin or shins.  To me those are the best targets if they are available.  The technique would be anything that seemed applicable at the moment.. hand strike to the eyes or throat..or kick to the groin or shin.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## disciple (Apr 10, 2002)

I wouldn't move. Avoid all troubles if possible. If he throws punch, I might do tai chi's cloud hands, separate the horse's mane, then push him back/down 

salute

:asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 10, 2002)

I agree that "the look" can work.

The comment about the patient hurling feces reminds me of stories of people avoiding sexual assaults by vomiting, urinating/defecating, or some such. Hurling feces is not uncommon in prisions as well. Extreme as it is, it's an example of the facts that a.) improvised weapons can be found more often than we think, and b.) self-defense doesn't mean you have to hurt the other person--just protect yourself, by whatever means necessary.


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## fist of fury (Apr 10, 2002)

If talking him out of it didn't work and he threw a punch. I'd pivot slightly and deliver a front thrust kick to the side of his knee after he crumpled to the ground I walk away.


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## LanceWildcat1 (Jul 15, 2002)

Take out his legs/knees/hips/ankle with a kick or kicks.  Then, you pretty much do what you want after that.


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## chufeng (Jul 15, 2002)

I'd do the Curly Shuffle...


chufeng


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## LanceWildcat1 (Jul 15, 2002)

chufeng:


> I'd do the Curly Shuffle...




Now there's a good move!!  Nyuk!! Nyuk!! Nyuk!!!  :boing1:


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## Danny (Jul 15, 2002)

I'd turn around and run like hell.  If he happened to be one of the relitively few people who could catch me then I'd probably guard and wait for him to do something.


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## GouRonin (Jul 15, 2002)

:fart: :fart: :fart: :fart:


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## chufeng (Jul 15, 2002)

Gou....I L-u-u-u-v that !!!

:asian:
chufeng


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## GouRonin (Jul 15, 2002)

I knew of a guy who when faced with overwhelming odds actually reached into his pants to pull out his own feeces and threw them at his opponent. When I came on the scene he was actually chasing the guy with a handfull of cr@p yelling, _"You want some of this? Do ya! Huh? Do you?"_

Needless to say none of us wanted any of it and we left him alone to calm down.


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## DWright (Jul 15, 2002)

Given this is a hypothetical situation I see a quick trapping hands then a solid kick to the knee.  If he can't walk he can't run, and then I would merely walk away.


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## Eraser (Jul 15, 2002)

Well if he\she is just standing there with their arms sightly up.. i'd do nothing.. until they throw the first punch.. there is no conflict...  we are just simply standing around..
And when they do decide to punch.. id just step out of the way of the punch.... and then wait for their next move..
no need to cause severe harm for a person who is just throwing a punch...   

ive said this before.. and i truly believe in it..

In true self defence.... there is no body contact!
:asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 15, 2002)

Eraser that is a a great attitude and very idealistic but real life doesnt quite work that way.  I'm very fast but every time I evade a strike and my opponent misses I know that I'm just putting off what is eventually going to happen...he's going to make contact sooner or later or grab me for that matter.

I believe in another line... "blocking and evading is just putting off the inevitable, you have to stop them fast."

I agreed with you fully until you stated " In true self defence.... there is no body contact!"  Me thinks you've never looked down the barrel of an enraged steroid case.  You can't even outrun those guys.  There is definately body contact to some degree even if just to stop him from beating your face in by putting your hands up.  What would you say to a rape victim?  How are they supposed to defend themselves with no body contact?  The rapist is bigger, stronger and faster and is trying to get his meaty paws all over the victim with all his effort.  

I'm just looking for your insight on this topic as I disagree with you but I honestly wish it were possible and I think it's a great philosophy although seriously flawed when dealing with reality.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Bushido (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> 
> *What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move? *



Everyone may say what they want, it is impossible to know how someone would react in a real confrontation: stress/fear is playing an important factor. There is NO best answer, but alot can be done.


-Bushido


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## hand2handCombat (Jul 15, 2002)

i would do a "teep" then side kick followed with a spinn around kick..if he swung at me, i hace this MT move to throw him down.


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## Aikikitty (Jul 15, 2002)

Well, if this is an imaginary attack.....then I want a dumb attacker!  When he threatens me, I can just point to somewhere behind him and say, "Look!  Good Year Blimp!" and then run away or do a technique on him while his back was turned.  If I had the impression that he didn't know _anything_ about martial arts, then I'd calmly inform him that I am a black belt in Origami and hope that the fool would run. :shrug:  :rofl: 

Unfortunately, I doubt that any of that would work in the real world (although I heard somewhere that the "black belt in Origami" was a true story and the attacker ran:shrug: ).  In a real life situation, I'd try whatever I could to run away and if I couldn't then I suppose I'd just try my best to do whatever technique I hope would work and _then_ make my escape and get some help.

Robyn :boing2:


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## arnisador (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *I agreed with you fully until you stated " In true self defence.... there is no body contact!"  Me thinks you've never looked down the barrel of an enraged steroid case. *



Self-defense ideally in a case like that involves no body contact--not being there in the first place, running, calling for help, talking them down (it's been done, even with people on drugs), using the environment to block him from getting to you, and so on.

The martial arts are a part of self-defense, but not all of it! Self-defense using the martial arts is likely to involve contact, but self-defense more generally need not. I agree with the spirit of the statement that in true self defence there is no body contact. How many situations could be avoided by not being someplace you know you shouldn't be? Not all, but many. How many situations that involve fighting could be avoided by one party not fighting (e.g. bar fights that work their way up)? The situation can often be diffused.

Self-defense is a more general term than martial arts!


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 15, 2002)

I fully agree arnisador and that is exactly what I teach but... I was responding to his description of simply evading all the incoming attacks.

"no need to cause severe harm for a person who is just throwing a punch..."  What about the second punch and the third?  And the 100th when hes in a frenzy and out to disfigure you?  You can't evade them all.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## arnisador (Jul 16, 2002)

I agree, in that context--I always say you can probably block or at least sufficiently muffle one punch, _maybe_ a second, but not a third--you've got to start counterstriking as soon as possible.


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## thaiboxer (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bushido _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



a few people have said this, i just wanted to know what "hypothetically" you would do? who said anything about a best answer? i certainly didnt. its all hypothetical, and i guess i was trying to really get a first reaction move out of some of the martial artists here.

personally id stick to my boxing and muay thai basic techniques, because they are safe even when intoxicated. i found out about a month and a half ago a left/right does the trick pretty convincingly. this guy had been harrassing for months when i seen him on the town here, and was agressive once more, shoved into me the last couple of occasions, and with threatening comments. well quit efrankly i warned him enough, and even greeted him the night of the incident, only to be told "f**k off" he then proceeded to place his glass on the ground and kick it at me, hung around for a bit (as i clenched my fists by side) and as he just started to move to shove me again, i let the big fella have it.
So i guess that kind of thing i was after, not what is the best move, what move do you think you would use next - hypothetically. why does everyone have to think perfect all the time. there are heaps of ways to skin a cat.


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## thaiboxer (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by The Opal Dragon _
> 
> [Unfortunately, I doubt that any of that would work in the real world (although I heard somewhere that the "black belt in Origami" was a true story and the attacker ran:shrug: ).
> 
> ...


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## thaiboxer (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *I fully agree arnisador and that is exactly what I teach but... I was responding to his description of simply evading all the incoming attacks.
> 
> ...



i agree with you totally, these guys who say these things obviously havent done any hard sparring and/or fought before, take them out before the fight escalates, because thats when people can really get hur, if it goes on for a long period.


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## GouRonin (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eraser _
> *Well if he\she is just standing there with their arms sightly up.. i'd do nothing.. until they throw the first punch.. there is no conflict...  we are just simply standing around..
> And when they do decide to punch.. id just step out of the way of the punch.... and then wait for their next move..
> no need to cause severe harm for a person who is just throwing a punch...*



Hmmm...and you say you have never done any systema eh?
 
Vlad does say that what we do comes naturally. Of course common sense isn't always so common. But it's good to see that some of it is always around.


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## Kenpo Wolf (Jul 16, 2002)

B1b, which is a left handed wrist grab pulling horizontally toward the left with a righ punch to the ribs, followed by a wrist lock and takedown . Maximum control with minimum force, as one of my instructors use to say. I did'nt want to hurt to hurt the guy , much, because I did'nt want his gorgeous sister mad at me.


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## Eraser (Jul 16, 2002)

Hey all....

All i was doing was answering the theads question... First move in an attack...   my first move is to avoid the FIRST punch...  the thread never asked about 2nd or 3rd...  in that case of course I would counterstrike... wounldn't even think twice..

but with my saying.. (in true self defence, there is no body contact) you are not suppose to take the words for what they read.. you must try to understand what they are...  I don't mean literally no body contact.. (like not even laying a finger on them...)   as a MA-ist you have to know how much force to use..  like i said earlier.. im not gonna break a fella's neck just because he threw a punch at me...  you can make a person fall to the ground without throwing a punch..
We train almost every class avoiding direct hard punches.. we use natural law therories (from our Kosho Ryu buddies) and learn how to read our attackers and knowing how our and their body will react to certain things.. its really quite amazing..
Its hard to explain.. and its not somthing you learn overnight... 
but im slowly understanding and grasping the concept..
Believe in what you want.. im not here to brag about how great this or that is.. (that's just not me...)
I dont think less of anyone who doubts me.. but i hope that you don't think less of me because i believe in my style of MA..

Thats all.....nuff said


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## Damian Mavis (Jul 17, 2002)

I took you literally when you said true self defence didnt need ANY contact and was confused.  Glad to see your not crazy!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## sweeper (Jul 17, 2002)

hmm..  in a social situation I always keep my arms up..  usualy because if I'm at a party I have adrink and the other arm is to prevent someone bumping my drink..  put if I was gona fight and there was no way out I would go for his legs, if I had a drink I would throw it twards his face and stomp the knee/shin if I didn't I would throw a jab and stomp the knee/shin. I would use the strike as a takedown, after contact just keep pressing through till they fall. If I don't land that kick than I'm probably close in so I would have to box but my goal there would be to get some distance and the usual method I use is a side step or a retreat combined with a low kick. basicly my strategy would be to control his movement through low line kicks and try to flank him so I could control a limb or out box him.


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## Eraser (Jul 17, 2002)

Damian,

HELL ya im crazy... what took ya so long to realize?? 
hehehehehe


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## arnisador (Aug 28, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## kevin kilroe (Sep 21, 2003)

a step thru front kick to the solar plexus or a side kick to the knee would be my choices. low kicks are generally harder to block but a thrust kick to the solar plexus will take the wind out of his sails for sure.

full salute 
kevin kilroe


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## Saitama Steve (Sep 21, 2003)

Anything as long as it gets the job done. The best thing seems to be a right hook. 

Hit first, hit hard and hit often. Then run away.


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## stickarts (Sep 22, 2003)

My first step would be to determine what i thought his advantages might be vs. my advantages. reach advantages, speed, strength, size.
also, is their intent just to rough me up a little or really maim or kill me? that would also be a factor as to what i would do.


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## lost_tortoise (Sep 22, 2003)

I would kill him dead with my big gun and then I would take his wallet.  When I found out where he lived, I would go there and kill all his family, pets and maybe a few of his neighbors (all with the same really big gun, 'cause I carry lots and lots of bullets in my cargo pants).  By now, I am on the run from Johnny Law, but I keep researching to find any remaining relatives of this guy that did me wrong so that I can kill them dead too (after I'd cleaned my really, really big gun.)


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## Cruentus (Sep 22, 2003)

This question seems kind of lame to me. First move? It would depend on the situation, I would think. :shrug:


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## Saitama Steve (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lost_tortoise _
> *I would kill him dead with my big gun and then I would take his wallet.  When I found out where he lived, I would go there and kill all his family, pets and maybe a few of his neighbors (all with the same really big gun, 'cause I carry lots and lots of bullets in my cargo pants).  By now, I am on the run from Johnny Law, but I keep researching to find any remaining relatives of this guy that did me wrong so that I can kill them dead too (after I'd cleaned my really, really big gun.) *




If you do that, I have two words to say to you matey; PRISON SEX

You're going to be wearing an orange jumpsuit and you won't remain anally retentive for very long.


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## MA-Caver (Sep 24, 2003)

Loved the humor on this topic and the serious answers as well.
I've had this "hypothetical situation" happen and if it ever happens again I'll do what I did before ... again.
Belted the guy...with my beer mug...shattered it on his temple. Can somebody say down for the count? If it sounds extreme then consider that little 5'-10'' 145 lb calm me looking for a date against 6'-2'' 220 him drunk and billegerent looking for a fight and then say umm, that was fair enough. I didn't choose to use any MA at the time because I wasn't in the mood to do it,  and like the situation Tai-boxer (hypothetically) set up it was a crowded bar.  Made a mess on the floor, pissed some folks off because the beer flew as I swung and the guy got carried out by his buds with threats of kicking my **** (bla bla bla). 
I remembered thinking that I should've just shot him. Simpler that way. But ahh the hassel with the police, my probation officer, and all that...

Of course I don't drink anymore and probably won't ever find myself in that kind of barroom situation again. And yes, at the time the management banned me from the place for life... but then at the time, so what! In Dallas there were about 600 other bars to choose from. Not that it matters anymore today. 




:shrug:


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## Cruentus (Sep 24, 2003)

In all seriousness, I think I would fire a missle at his head. That's right...a missle! 

Why...cause you can't stop a friggin' missle!

nuff' said!


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## YouAgain (Sep 24, 2003)

:btg: then I run


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## Saitama Steve (Sep 24, 2003)

Good one.


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## spartanmachine (Sep 29, 2003)

Definetly feigning that you don't want to fight and then a sucker punch but it really does depend on the situation.


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## shadowninjakat (Oct 12, 2003)

3 Basic Steps:
 Step 1: 180 degree turn
 Step 2: Take 1 step forward.
 Step 3: Quickly repeat Step 2 until far away.

If that fails just use the lightsaber in your pocket.
:jediduel:


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## shadowninjakat (Oct 12, 2003)

Nothing can stop a missile?
You mean like this:
:redeme:


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## SpiritFists936 (Oct 29, 2003)

I would throw dirt in his eyes, then choke him out.

if no dirt is available i would blitz him as fast as possible hitting him high and low as fast as i could.

but thats just me


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## DeLamar.J (Nov 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thaiboxer _
> *What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move? *


 A straight right hand, or a straight kick in the sack.


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## someguy (Nov 3, 2003)

pull out a 10 foot lonf sword  and wack him... 
all depends on every thing
my first step may be behinnd me
or maybe  taking the flank and punching him


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## Eldritch Knight (Nov 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> *I think we should create a new art.
> 
> 
> ...




We had a continuing joke about this at my TKD dojang after one of the 1st dans farted very loudly in class. We made constant references to a fake art called Fart Kwon Do. The highest rank was the brown belt. Guess why. ^__^



In a fight against an unarmed opponent, I'd start with a fast, strong sidekick to their midsection. If they don't get the point after that, then I'd go with groin strikes and debilitating kicks.


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## KenpoTess (Dec 6, 2005)

*Zombie Queen reviving the dead *


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## INDYFIGHTER (Dec 6, 2005)

I like hooking someone with their guard up by the wrists and pulling their face down into my forehead.  It's one of the moves from one of my belts but I don't know which one or what it's called.  I've used it on guys I work with when they are screwing around and it's caught them by surprise.  Another one for the simple minded is to just fake a hard jab to the gut and if they drop their hand hit them with a cross.  That's what my Dad says worked best for him when he was younger man.  Every instant is different and I think I'd prefer to work off a attack then attack someone who's waiting on me to, so unless he just killed my Mother I'm walking away.


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## jdinca (Dec 9, 2005)

I have absolutely no idea. Something will happen but I can't tell you what. Predetermining how you're going to respond to an attack will just get you hurt, 'cuz that probably isn't what's going to happen.


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## Ronin Moose (Dec 9, 2005)

Take out the ALPHA male first!


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## AdrenalineJunky (Dec 9, 2005)

Ronin Moose said:
			
		

> Take out the ALPHA male first!


 
Another fighting myth. No disrespect intended, but taking out the biggest guy does not guarantee that his three friends won't jump you; or that they won't jump you wile your busy trying to take out the baddest guy.


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## samurai69 (Dec 9, 2005)

INDYFIGHTER said:
			
		

> I like hooking someone with their guard up by the wrists and pulling their face down into my forehead. It's one of the moves from one of my belts but I don't know which one or what it's called. I've used it on guys I work with when they are screwing around and it's caught them by surprise. Another one for the simple minded is to just fake a hard jab to the gut and if they drop their hand hit them with a cross. That's what my Dad says worked best for him when he was younger man. Every instant is different and I think I'd prefer to work off a attack then attack someone who's waiting on me to, so unless he just killed my Mother I'm walking away.


 
on a similar note, fake a knee to the groin then a cross or uppercut to the head as the attacker bends forward (naturally)


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## AdrenalineJunky (Dec 9, 2005)

samurai69 said:
			
		

> on a similar note, fake a knee to the groin then a cross or uppercut to the head as the attacker bends forward (naturally)


 
This really depends on experience. If you try to knee me--mostly because we knee lot--my reaction will be much different than some, random person. Tricks like this really only work on people who don't fight. Likewise, faking a punch to my gut is not going to get me to drop my guard. You can punch me and kick me in the stomach all day long, as far as I'm concerned; but I won't be dropping my guard. Also, grabbing someone's hands is not advisable, from my perspective, for a few reasons: 

Both of your hands are occupied
You have given up your guard
You leave yourself open for knees
You put yourself right in clinch range; which is where I, myself, would want you to be
Tricks and one-hit-knock-outs do happen, I've seen them happen. That said, the fact that, in all the people I've fought (sparring or otherwise) not once has it happened to me, nor have I done it to someone else. And since my knees and elbows are such that I manage to fold some pretty heavy banana bags, put some pretty decent fighters on the ground, and I still haven't done the one-hit-knock-out, leads me to believe that, when it does happen, it's due more to chance than anything else. Chance is nice, but certainly not anything I chose to train myself to rely on.


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## MJS (Dec 9, 2005)

The possibilities are endless as to what we could do first.  It's all going to depend on the situation presented to us at the current time.

I would think though, going off of the original post, that having your hands up, in a non-threatening manner would be a good place to start.  You're not standing there, fists clenched, giving the impression you want to fight, but instead coming off less confrontational, but at the same time, still providing yourself with a defense, as well as a possible pre emptive strike on your part.

Mike


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## Loki (Dec 9, 2005)

Kick to the nuts, punch to the face, the jig.


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## Solidman82 (Dec 9, 2005)

Actually I've found that it's not the alpha male but the bigmouth. For some reason when there's someone really really shooting their annoying mouth off, people either don't mind that you slapped them out, or are in shock that you had the guts. Of course, nothing is ever a certainty, just a likely bet.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 9, 2005)

If you wanna take this from the original example and the guy stood up, took a stance and wanted to "fight"

My first move in the fight would be to hit him with a chair or somthing.  If he's DUMB enoough to square up and wait for the fight, I dont wanna fight him... he expects too much.


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## Solidman82 (Dec 9, 2005)

What if he's thai warrior Ting though? You might have to come at him with a severed electrical wire.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Dec 9, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> If you wanna take this from the original example and the guy stood up, took a stance and wanted to "fight"
> 
> My first move in the fight would be to hit him with a chair or somthing. If he's DUMB enoough to square up and wait for the fight, I dont wanna fight him... he expects too much.


 
Pfft, ninjas.  That's why you guys always win.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Dec 9, 2005)

Solidman82 said:
			
		

> What if he's thai warrior Ting though? You might have to come at him with a severed electrical wire.


 
This is just silly.


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## splazzatch (Dec 9, 2005)

When I am in a situation where I may need to defend myself I will put my hands up but rub them like they are cold. It gets them up in a non-confrontational manor and puts them where I can use them. 

However, in response to the first moves it is difficult to say because every situation is different.


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## samurai69 (Dec 10, 2005)

splazzatch said:
			
		

> When I am in a situation where I may need to defend myself I will put my hands up but rub them like they are cold. It gets them up in a non-confrontational manor and puts them where I can use them.


 

peter constardine teaches similar, from arms crossed or the salute position


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 10, 2005)

_ Also, grabbing someone's hands is not advisable, from my perspective, for a few reasons:_

I agree.  One thing we learn in our self-defense is that when you grab someone like that, you've given away your weapon, or conversely, when you are grabbed, you still have full range of motion but your opponent is tied to what you do.  It's pretty easy to break free from wrist/hand grabs if the person just grabs you.  I wouldn't grab someone for control unless it was part of a larger move of SJM to keep them fom moving their arm or to get them down

I also agree about putting your hands into a 'non-conrontational' pose so that you are in a good position to move but you look like your trying to avoid a fight, which could help with witnesses and legal issues if need be.

Actually, I shouldn't say 'look like you are trying to avoid a fight'.  The best first move in a fight is not to have one and if your non-confrontational posture actually works to diffuse the situation, so much the better.  Just helps if your pose happens to be one from which you can move and react, anyway


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## Danny T (Dec 10, 2005)

thaiboxer said:
			
		

> What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move?


 
Do mean all he has done is raised his arms and clinched his fist? What were you doing in the first place to have gotten to the point of this?  

Such a question raised causes me to to ask where are you and what are you doing? There are more serious questions to answered first. How much room do you have, what is behind you, what is behind him, what about to each side? Are other people there? Are weapons involved, or what is available to each to be utilized as a weapon? What kind of clothing are you wearing, what is he wearing? There is far more to understanding the situation for a confrontation than just he is standing in front of you with his arms slightly raised. Are you in a fight mode or a self-defense mode? Are you alone not having to protect other's or do you have a date, wife, children, or a friend who doesn't have the abilities you have? Are you protecting your home within the confines of your home or are you around the town?

He hasn't done anything but raised his arms slighly and postured yet you want to know what killer move would be used. If you or I used a killer move at this point we would be the aggressor and the killer. That killer move would place us in a situation of being arrested for man-slaughter.

My "killer" move would most likely to move back slightly at an angle (if possible) and slowly raise my open hands in a very non-confrontally way stating something like "Sir, you don't want to waste your time and effort with the likes of me." 

Danny


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## searcher (Dec 10, 2005)

Block and move, move and block.   Anything to give yourself the distance you need to avoid getting hurt.   You need to assess the situation, which I hope you have already done.   If you are looking for "killer moves", as you called them, what about a good ole' head butt.    It smarts pretty good and it might knock some sense into both of you.


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 10, 2005)

How did you get there?  

If this is  just  a misunderstanding, then you want to diffuse the situation and even if you can't, you don't want your first move to be aggressive (you always want witnesses on your side; to say that you acted in defense, not attack).  You're going to use moves to stop the guy from attacking, not to hurt him (and arm bar on the floor versus a sidekick to the knee)

If this is a criminal attacking you to hurt you to rob you or worse, then your response is much different, much more aggresive and final.

Hard to really say what a first move should be unless you know why you got there (and the physical environment, as already mentioned)


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## swiftpete (Dec 10, 2005)

I think if it was inevitable i would probably either wait for him to move in some way towards me then elbow him as hard as i could in the face or maybe just knee him as hard as i could in the nuts. When i'm in class both of those things come naturally ( sometimes the knee to nuts has come abit more naturally than it should've as some of my classmates can testify!). 
Then maybe followed up with a couple more hits to keep him/put him down, then leg it.
Hopefully that'd work but who knows? Every goon is different.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 12, 2005)

thaiboxer said:
			
		

> What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move?


 Just remember the key elements of winning real confrontations.  Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action.  Regardless of what technique you use, if it doesn't involve all 3 of those things mentioned, they are less likely to succeed.

Surprise is what seperates the real world from the ring.  In the ring, you and your opponent know when the fight starts, the referee tells him, and he knows when it ends.  You also pretty much know the general form your opponents attack will take (though surprises can happen) given the general format of the event.  

You know, for example, if it's a Judo tournament, he probably isn't going to punch you.  If it's Mixed-Martial arts, it'll probably involve anything within the rules of the tournament.

In the street, someone involved in the fight (you or him) will control the time the fight starts, and the time it ends.  It isn't agreed upon, and there is a HUGE element of surprise.  Moreover, any technique, any tool, any variation is possible.

Again, Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action, if you MUST fight.  Control those 3 things, or your opponent will.


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## Odin (Dec 12, 2005)

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> This really depends on experience. If you try to knee me--mostly because we knee lot--my reaction will be much different than some, random person. Tricks like this really only work on people who don't fight. Likewise, faking a punch to my gut is not going to get me to drop my guard. You can punch me and kick me in the stomach all day long, as far as I'm concerned; but I won't be dropping my guard. Also, grabbing someone's hands is not advisable, from my perspective, for a few reasons:
> 
> Both of your hands are occupied
> You have given up your guard
> ...


 
Arent we all getting a little too technical here?its not like a full kumate tournment is going to be unleashed in the middle of the pub?!
You can tell a fighter by the way he holds himself,that's when I'd worry about tactics....first move would be me blocking his right hand,I cant see bob from yorkshire down the pub trying to put me in a muay thai clinch with a guiness in his hand,it just doesnt happen normal man on the street will through his right hand and I'll slip/block it and then cause him some trouble.

As for one hit knockouts,they do happen..its not really chance but more to do with science.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 23, 2006)

First? Spit in his face. This will cause him to pull back his head, with it, his hands too. Then go from there.


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## KOROHO (Jun 23, 2006)

thaiboxer said:
			
		

> What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move?


 
No move. The one who moves first loses (karate ni sente nashi).


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## pstarr (Jun 23, 2006)

First move, per se, is in your mind and spirit...


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## tradrockrat (Jun 24, 2006)

well there have been a lot of good posts here - poo has always been an effective tactic - but the last time someone was foolish enough to actually stand in front of me and try to start a fight I was still a bouncer so I just nodded to my coworker and we grabed the guy and threw him out of the club 

that's my killer move - the nod.

the most effective tactic I ever saw was the hard shove.  I saw a guy go flying over a table from a hard shove.  Simple, but effectively ended the fight right there.


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## trueaspirer (Jun 24, 2006)

Um, I would just go with the "it depends" norm standby. Hopefully, I'd vome up with some thoroughly ingenious one-move ko attack that hits its target and ends the fight but I doubt that. I just have to hope that instead of standing there panicking, my ma training would actually kick in and I'd be able to do something.


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## matt.m (Jun 25, 2006)

thaiboxer said:
			
		

> What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move?


 
Gee, if I had to fight I would go with a twist kick reverse punch combo.  It all depends on how the situation plays out.


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## redfang (Jun 28, 2006)

If I was working, then the proverbial one second burst of OC spray to the facial area comes to mind. Mag light to the com peroneal perhaps? If I wasn't at work, in the old days my philospohy was, if it looks like violence is unavoidable, beat them to the punch. Now, I'm more likely to stay out of situations where violence is unavoidable. I'm more willing to talk my way out a situation. If all else fails, if im in a bar, he's probably drunk and I'm not; I'll try to subdue and diffuse.  If I'm confronted on the street for no visible reason, I assume they have something criminal in mind. If strong words don't cause them to back off, then do whatever is required to neutralize the threat.


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## pstarr (Jun 28, 2006)

I like Sgtmac's response.  Good post!


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## Jimi (Jun 28, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> First? Spit in his face. This will cause him to pull back his head, with it, his hands too. Then go from there.


Hear. hear! I am with that. If you know the confrontation is unavoidable and you need a good first move, spitting will work. Not an absolute, but bubble yum helped me out of a few beat downs around DC at a young age. I have also mentioned in some post before about fillipino mace, spitting tobacco juice, stings quite a bit. Even seen a redneck here in Nashville use it last 4th of July. I know jack $#it, he lives in Nashville TN. LOL. I also agree with Tradrockrat, I used to bounce in Georgetown DC years ago. There is nothing like a coworker with good wherewithall. PEACE


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## bobster_ice (Jun 29, 2006)

I would wait until the attacker attacked me and then I would make my first move, I dont know what my first move would be, it really depends on what position im in, what position the attacker is in and how the attacker attacks me.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 30, 2006)

Double post


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 30, 2006)

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe I'll do one thing.....Maaaaaaaaaaaaybe I'll do something ....DIfferent........Being as only I know what I will do next, I guess he'll never know unless he's dumb enough to try me on , now, will he? :ninja:


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## Martial Tucker (Jun 30, 2006)

Front leg low side kick to his thigh/knee/shin. He almost certainly won't be looking for that. Whatever I hit, fine, as long as it disables his "wheels" long enough for me to either escape, or if that's not plausible, finish him with a power kick or my hands.


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## spinkick (Jul 6, 2006)

I really don't like to talk about what I've done to defend myself but for the sake of the thread i'll give you a little example from what happened to me at a subway/gastation a few months ago.  

Me and one of my freinds were enjoying lunch when this obnoxcious guy comes in causing a  few problems but nothing to serious he's yelling at the girls at the counter and just all around being a jerk.  So I mind my own business and just eat my sandwhich then I go to the bathroom to wash my hands.  When  I walk out this stranger is standing there he tells me to get out of his way so I oblige.  Apparently that wasn't enough for him because then he called me a few names and shoved me.  Now I could of taken his ranting and raving but I do not like to be touched So I told him he had better just go back to what he was doing or something bad was going to happen.  He got in the pose whcih I've labeled the ganster pose.  you know where they stand up straight with their chin up  and their hands outstretched totally opening themselves up? well at this point there was no way out of the fight because we were in a small hallway So I took matters into my own hands and headbutted him using the the upper part of my forhead i got him in the nose It stunned him enough for me to grab a MGD bottle off of the shelf next to me and bust it over his head.  I know this isn't very passive but this guy was alot bigger then me and I don't think i oculd of taken to much punsihment from him.  

My point is Strike first Strike hard


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## Hand Sword (Jul 6, 2006)

spinkick said:
			
		

> My point is Strike first Strike hard


 
NO MERCY SIR !! 

Sorry, couldn't help it.


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## searcher (Jul 7, 2006)

Block or move.   One or the other followed by the other.   Keeping the breathing smooth and steady.


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## Kwai chang caine (Jul 20, 2006)

There is no ideal move that is perfect for every situation. There are so many options. It is usually better to be defensive and counter the enemy's movements. When someone attacks they open themselves up to a defensive counter-attack.


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## Kwai chang caine (Jul 20, 2006)

spinkick said:
			
		

> I really don't like to talk about what I've done to defend myself but for the sake of the thread i'll give you a little example from what happened to me at a subway/gastation a few months ago.
> 
> Me and one of my freinds were enjoying lunch when this obnoxcious guy comes in causing a few problems but nothing to serious he's yelling at the girls at the counter and just all around being a jerk. So I mind my own business and just eat my sandwhich then I go to the bathroom to wash my hands. When I walk out this stranger is standing there he tells me to get out of his way so I oblige. Apparently that wasn't enough for him because then he called me a few names and shoved me. Now I could of taken his ranting and raving but I do not like to be touched So I told him he had better just go back to what he was doing or something bad was going to happen. He got in the pose whcih I've labeled the ganster pose. you know where they stand up straight with their chin up and their hands outstretched totally opening themselves up? well at this point there was no way out of the fight because we were in a small hallway So I took matters into my own hands and headbutted him using the the upper part of my forhead i got him in the nose It stunned him enough for me to grab a MGD bottle off of the shelf next to me and bust it over his head. I know this isn't very passive but this guy was alot bigger then me and I don't think i oculd of taken to much punsihment from him.
> 
> My point is Strike first Strike hard



There are all too many people like that. I do agree about being preemptive and making sure that you can catch the attacker off guard.


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## samurai69 (Jul 20, 2006)

some of the bits off this clip high light some good pre emptive strikes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOTwg_YXYy0 


.


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## casper12 (Jul 20, 2006)

me myself when the attacker approaches i think a sliding front snap kick to the abdomen would hunch him over for the knees to go to work. yet when hes hunched u have control and can do what works for u.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 20, 2006)

I slip his first punch and snap his arm across my chest while kicking his legs out from under him. Then I would grab his collar bone and push his chin away with my free hand...


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 20, 2006)

The first move in a real fight is to determine if it is a real fight. 
The second instantly follows and that is this is a real fight, no rules or honor is going to help you survive. You must do what it is to survive the conflict.


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## Odin (Jul 21, 2006)

first move?why I would just jump spin around and give him the sholin two finger eye poke!ha!that will teach him to mess with me!mwahahahahahahah


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## Odin (Jul 21, 2006)

.........and then I'd pick him up by his side burns grab his mobile phone and make him phone his mum and explain to her what he had done wrong and how important is is not to try and bully innocent guys like Odin!.....then I would shout really really loud in his left ear and walk away.....dusting my hands as i walk.


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## soul_sword34 (Jul 21, 2006)

Like everyone has stated.  Depends on so many undeterminable factors.  When I train for this exact scenario I have several different techniques and I'd probably go with my favorite.  Offshoot of "7 Blows of the Dragon".

I'd come from a 0 point perception in a non-assuming stance, i.e. relaxed standing position with my right foot slightly forward, knees slightly bent (knees naturally bend in a fear response).  My hands would be non-assuming as well.  Usually folded with my thumbs tucked in my belt or waistline.  Chin would be down and eyes averted up non-focus through opponent.  Whole bunch of other subtle things.  When the accurate range is detected I'd lead with my initial response.  Which would be a right veriticle knuckle to the point below the nostrils.  Screw groin kicks, they usually won't work to stop a big guys momentum before he tackles you.  What technique comes next would be hard to say.  Probably a left palm heel to the side of his jaw, right verticle to xiphoid, left shuto to the throat and two rolling back knuckles to his nose off his direct centerline.  KiaiiiiiiiiiiiahhhhKiiaiiiiiiiaiiiaiiaiaikiaiAiyah!!!!!!!!!  That's it for me.


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## Odin (Jul 21, 2006)

soul_sword34 said:
			
		

> Like everyone has stated. Depends on so many undeterminable factors. When I train for this exact scenario I have several different techniques and I'd probably go with my favorite. Offshoot of "7 Blows of the Dragon".
> 
> I'd come from a 0 point perception in a non-assuming stance, i.e. relaxed standing position with my right foot slightly forward, knees slightly bent (knees naturally bend in a fear response). My hands would be non-assuming as well. Usually folded with my thumbs tucked in my belt or waistline. Chin would be down and eyes averted up non-focus through opponent. Whole bunch of other subtle things. When the accurate range is detected I'd lead with my initial response. Which would be a right veriticle knuckle to the point below the nostrils. Screw groin kicks, they usually won't work to stop a big guys momentum before he tackles you. What technique comes next would be hard to say. Probably a left palm heel to the side of his jaw, right verticle to xiphoid, left shuto to the throat and two rolling back knuckles to his nose off his direct centerline. KiaiiiiiiiiiiiahhhhKiiaiiiiiiiaiiiaiiaiaikiaiAiyah!!!!!!!!! That's it for me.


 
...your you could shout really loud in his ear! ( :


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## searcher (Jul 21, 2006)

I train in TKD in addition to my other styles, but I would never lead off with a kick of any kind.   After reading several posts most are leading with some sort of kick.   I wonder how many have actually used their "primary" move in an altercation.


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## soul_sword34 (Jul 21, 2006)

searcher said:
			
		

> I train in TKD in addition to my other styles, but I would never lead off with a kick of any kind. After reading several posts most are leading with some sort of kick. I wonder how many have actually used their "primary" move in an altercation.


 
I've used the verticle knuckle I posted about earlier and it works very well even when being charged.  It must come from 0 perception though to be most effective.  A real man stopper.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 21, 2006)

thaiboxer said:
			
		

> What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move?


 
Ive decided Id scream "Not in the face, not in the face!"


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## soul_sword34 (Jul 21, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ive decided Id scream "Not in the face, not in the face!"


 
I wear glasses so you know no one will hit a guy with glasses.


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## wowzer77 (Jul 22, 2006)

In a fight where around where I live and with the people I'm around, the first thing your opponent would do is push you with both arms and look mean.  As he was about to push, I'd either kick him in the face or in the kneecap.  In your situation, I'd wait for him to do something and counter it accordingly.


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## soul_sword34 (Jul 22, 2006)

wowzer77 said:
			
		

> In a fight where around where I live and with the people I'm around, the first thing your opponent would do is push you with both arms and look mean. As he was about to push, I'd either kick him in the face or in the kneecap. In your situation, I'd wait for him to do something and counter it accordingly.


 
Oh a two hand push, easy!  Verticle knuckle again. LOL.  If the big bad ugly is longer then I'd go for a wrist.  Kote Gaieshe more than likely.


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## tradrockrat (Jul 23, 2006)

soul_sword34 said:
			
		

> I wear glasses so you know no one will hit a guy with glasses.



I point to the guy next to me and say, "He did it."


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## Haze (Jul 23, 2006)

thaiboxer said:
			
		

> ok i know its a hypothetical question and there ar emany variables, but really i was only after say a general answer, to see if any were the same or whatever.
> Lets just say its in a pub with limited room to move (because its a bit squishy) and this bloke has merely made eye contact, and then procedded to fire up.


Well, I don't drink anymore so me being in a pub/bar probably won't happen so this situation won't come up.  But if I am ever in a pub and this does happen I'll try the things that were written here. 

Thanks


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## Slippery_Pete (Jul 23, 2006)

thaiboxer said:
			
		

> What would be the first move you would try to perform if confronted in a real fight? (lets just say the opponent is standing, almost front on, with his arms slightly raised to his chest and clinched for arguments sake), what would be your first killer move?



yell "NO" and turn and run as fast as I could


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## MMAfighter (Jul 23, 2006)

in a streetfight i'd throw jabs and crosses. Because i know that since the guy hasn't trained anything he/she would be throwing wild haymakers...and the best way ti fight against haymakers and to throw shorter distanced punches IE straight punches...hehe...or takedown or clinch and throw or clinch and knee. Or kick to the groin and run.


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## searcher (Jul 24, 2006)

Pull out cell and call my lawyer


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## chris_&#3617;&#3623;&#3618;&#3652;&#3607;&#3618; (Jul 25, 2006)

in a real fight i would probably throw a punch to the nose and clinch him whilst kneeing him continuously , or...cutting a long fight short , id kick him in the nuts


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## joshpb (Aug 11, 2006)

Not sure how well it would work, but I always like the idea of a ducking roundhouse (ducking left roundhouse to chest).  This is number 6 in our kicking one-steps.


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## searcher (Aug 11, 2006)

Look at them with a very serious look and say "Don't I go to church with your mother?"   Half of the time they will turn and run if they don't it will give you a good half of a second to set your next move up.

Don't laugh at this one.   It works.


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## Jimi (Aug 11, 2006)

What you say about my MAMA!? That can start a fight right there. LOL. Say that and then throwdown or he will be first to strike. LOL. PEACE


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## lll000000lll (Aug 11, 2006)

i would back up and get into a well balanced defensive stance with plenty of room between us so i could size him up, i would maintain full eye contacted.

I would wait and watch to see when the moment of cognition in his brain happens. (that's when you read the opponent and you can actually tell the moment they think of what their next move is.) 

then i would intercept their attack (which is a great way to rattle your opponent) and proceed with some nice exploitation of their weakened position, IE. counterattacks (if they are still trying to get off some strikes), combos (if you are feeling like delivering some punishment.), or just finding holes in there defense for some trapping or a take-down.

but to be honest anything could happen in a fight but the answer to the question, that would be my first killer move. 

then again i might just break their jaw if given the opportunity.

lol


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## tradrockrat (Aug 11, 2006)

I still think pointing at the guy next to you and saying, "He did it." is the best idea...


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## mjd (Aug 13, 2006)

No reason to do anything except hold your ground, 99% will back off as soon as they decide you are not going anywhere.

The 1%, wait until they make the first move, go from there, these things can not be pre-planned only reactive. 

If your training is broad enough and steeped in experience this should not be much of a problem.

People who clinch typically want fight on the outside, that's why they clinch to keep you outside, I would most likely go inside and do throat damage.


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