# Glad Tito and Shamrock fought again *spoiler warning*



## Cruentus (Oct 10, 2006)

The match is over; Ortiz won again by knockout, 1st round, as I and many predicted.

There has been some controversy over this issue as to whether they should have fought again.

I am glad that they did.

One has to think of this from a competitors perspective. Whether the fight was stopped too early or not last time, the pure controversy over it is not a good way for someone to retire. Ken Shamrock retiring from a more decisive knockout is much better; he can move on now without questioning what "could have" or "should have" happened.

It was also good for them to bury the hatchet at the end. Both fighters behaved like a class act. I have a lot of respect for the both of them.

All and all, I thought the match was very good for the sport.


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## Marvin (Oct 10, 2006)

I agree 100% with you. Lets be done with it.
Now someone please gimme a youtube link!!!


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## Marvin (Oct 10, 2006)

And a youtube link to Rory's fight too please! Thanks


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## someguy (Oct 10, 2006)

Yeah can't say it couldn't be seen coming.  I think Shamrock was more than ready for it by the way he entered.  Not a spectacular fight by anymeans.  Kind of a nice ending to it all though.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 10, 2006)

class ending by both no matter what they may realy think of each other


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## Carol (Oct 10, 2006)

Missed it....work got in the way.

I greatly enjoyed watching the first undercard bout with Matt Hamill.  He just may be my new fave.


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2006)

Tulisan said:


> The match is over; Ortiz won again by knockout, 1st round, as I and many predicted.
> 
> There has been some controversy over this issue as to whether they should have fought again.
> 
> ...


 
I agree.  I thought for sure, when they were walking towards each other at the end, that they'd start their usual antics, but was happy to see a respectful ending.

Mike


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## Marginal (Oct 10, 2006)

someguy said:


> Yeah can't say it couldn't be seen coming. I think Shamrock was more than ready for it by the way he entered. Not a spectacular fight by anymeans. Kind of a nice ending to it all though.


Kinda funny to watch Ken dancing to Tito's entrance music in the background before the match started. He seemed pretty releaxed going in to the whole thing.


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 10, 2006)

I think it was a good fight.......Tito showed that he is more than capable, and Ken realised he was at the end of his career.

I know they talked a lot of smack leading up to their fights......and i think the hype is great, it gets people sided and they really root for their guy.
But the best part of any fight for me is seeing a class act whether they were the loser or the victor.......the ability to walk over and shake the hand of the man that beat you, or the hand of the man you have beaten shows more heart ( to me) than the ability to last 15 minutes in a cage.


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## CTKempo Todd (Oct 11, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:


> I know they talked a lot of smack leading up to their fights......and i think the hype is great, it gets people sided and they really root for their guy.
> .


 

Don't agree about he smack talk and 'hype'...
It's incredibly childish, egotistical and very tiring....Everything the Martial Arts is NOT supposed to be which includes..respect, humility...

For once I'd love to see someone say nothing, be quiet and humble and beat the piss out of all the 'trash' talkers..Someone who can control the testosterone and not the other way around.

Its really hypocritical for Shamrock or anyone else to for months talk smack only 1.5 minutes later...eat your pride and go kiss toes....
If you were such a talker, do it with you hands and feet...

In the end though I am glad they shook hands..enough of the stupid talking already.."He can't beat me....he didn't hurt me"..blah blah blah...


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 11, 2006)

CTKempo Todd said:


> *Don't agree about he smack talk and 'hype'...*
> *It's incredibly childish, egotistical and very tiring....Everything the Martial Arts is NOT supposed to be which includes..respect, humility...*
> 
> For once I'd love to see someone say nothing, be quiet and humble and beat the piss out of all the 'trash' talkers..Someone who can control the testosterone and not the other way around.
> ...


 
*Unfortunately for you it's more entertainment than Martial Arts Philosophy.  It's a combat sport just like boxing and needs drama to sell tickets to people who aren't full fledged martial artists but are instead just fight fans.  Us martial artists are in the minority for people purchasing tickets believe it or not.*

Check the history of Dan Henderson.  known to be a good fighter with an impressive record but doesn't smack talk.  Thus, he has had issues with various promotions because he's not a big draw with the "mainstream" crowd.  He has no personality they say, no flair.  Mainstream meaning fight fans and not martial artists.  The fight fans are buying most of the tickets.  Look at all the celebrities at ring side.  I doubt most are there because they respect martial arts philosophy or are indeed martial artists.  I nfact when interviewed at ring side they often mention how they like the fights and don't do any of "this stuff" themselves.

_Not hypocritical it's one part entertainment which is good business.  Martial arts, codes of honor and morality don't sell big tickets unfortunately.  The other part is it's not hypocritical it's just two guys being big enough men to squash the nonsense and come to a mutual respect...something that IS the martial arts.  To respect another man after he beats the tar out of you repeatedly is THE EPITOME of respect and humility._

People need to realize that the UFC is not MAINLY about Martial Arts (meaning it doesn't have traditions, codes of honor, etc. to worry about).  It's a sports entertainment show that happens to have martial arts as an underlying theme to make money.  In other words the martial arts are not what's most important...the "bottom line" is.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 11, 2006)

_o respect another man after he beats the tar out of you repeatedly is THE EPITOME of respect and humility.
_

I think that to have respect and show humility toward someone, as a person,  whom you have beat the tar out of would be a higher level of respect nd humility.  Easier to respect someone who has shown they are better than you (not many options that don't end up sounding stupid anway) than to still maintain respect for the person of someone whom you can beat.

_It's a sports entertainment show that happens to have martial arts as an underlying theme to make money_

I would say that it's a sports entertainment show that happens to have 'two guys dukeing it out' as i's underlying theme.  That the two combantants may have martial arts training to help them do it better is probably not *really* of much importance to the appeal of the show.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 11, 2006)

FearlessFreep said:


> _o respect another man after he beats the tar out of you repeatedly is THE EPITOME of respect and humility._
> 
> 
> *I think that to have respect and show humility toward someone, as a person, whom you have beat the tar out of would be a higher level of respect nd humility. Easier to respect someone who has shown they are better than you (not many options that don't end up sounding stupid anway) than to still maintain respect for the person of someone whom you can beat.*
> ...


 
*Mildly debateable.  I kind of agree but I was thinking more of the "revenge mindset."*

I'd buy that, the martial arts is definitely a "smaller" part to the masses, though it is the larger part to Martial Artists like me.


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## zDom (Oct 11, 2006)

CTKempo Todd said:


> Don't agree about he smack talk and 'hype'...
> It's incredibly childish, egotistical and very tiring....Everything the Martial Arts is NOT supposed to be which includes..respect, humility...
> 
> For once I'd love to see someone say nothing, be quiet and humble and beat the piss out of all the 'trash' talkers..Someone who can control the testosterone and not the other way around.
> ...



I agree.

Encouraging this sort of behavior just to sell tickets (presumably to the Pro Wrestling crowd) is, IMO, selling out.

We all know that the smack talking is part of pro wrestling -- its all "part of the show." And we all know that is what pro wrestling IS: one big show.

The sad thing is this smack talking has bled over into OTHER sports. It's not just UFC -- we are seeing more and more of it in all professional sports. And it isn't good, whether it sells tickets or not.

In real athletic competitions, nobody is playing a role like they do in pro wrestling; what you see are people who train hard and play their hearts out in their sport. Every athlete that puts it on the line deserves respect -- not just the ones that win.

And, right or wrong, people perceive UFC as a martial art sport, they will begin to THINK that is what martial artists act like! And martial artists should hold ourselves to the highest common denominator among athletes, not the lowest.

People are going to start getting the wrong idea about what martial arts are about. Dana White doesn't give a crap -- ALL he cares about is the money he is making. He is selling us all out so he can line his pockets.

Dana White doesn't even care about the fighters who are making him rich. I remember season three of The Ultimate Fighter reality show, I think it was, when he was trying to talk INJURED FIGHTERS into competing, telling them they weren't real fighters because they were passing on his "opportunity" to get back on the show.

The only person I would like to fight in a cage match from the UFC organization is Dana White himself. Maybe after enduring the humilation of a "beat down" himself he would understand that real fights are not the same as pro wrestling exhibits.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 11, 2006)

zDom said:


> I agree.
> 
> Encouraging this sort of behavior just to sell tickets (presumably to the Pro Wrestling crowd) is, IMO, selling out.
> 
> ...


 
unfortunately selling out is not as important as selling tickets to those involved.  Also if not "selling out" meant not selling tickets there'd be no fights to watch.  Unfortunately that's how BUSINESS works.  And this UFC is much more about business than about martial arts as it always has been.  Even the 1st UFC was solely about the business of selling the Gracie name and Gracie Jiu Jitsu to the world.  Beating other martial arts was just the business hook.  Just have to understand how business works and that explains everything.... This dream that any PROFESSIONAL sport is not all about money is just that...wishful thinking.  It's all multi-million dollar business.

Even the NFL does it. Just one example think about the Eagles vs Cowboys game and how it was marketed.  It was all about the drama surrounding Terrell Owens.  It was marketed as TO vs. McNabb (again drama used to sell).

The NBA does it too.  How about the Bulls vs Knicks rivalries of yester year (more drama). and how the knicks were supposedly trying to roughhouse Michael Jordan during the games.  the had the "Jordan Rules" for how to hack and intimidate star players.  Or the ever smack talking Wilt Chamberlain...

Baseball does it too and so does Hockey.  Maybe Golf doesn't...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 11, 2006)

This is par for the course with sports.  I actually think the public see's the UFC for what it is a *Sport*!  I am not to concerned about the public being able to understand the differance between a sport and an art that teaches self defense or traditional martial arts.  I think that in general the people I know are pretty quick on the up take.  Or maybe I am just giving them to much credit. :idunno:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 11, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> This is par for the course with sports. I actually think the public see's the UFC for what it is a *Sport*! I am not to concerned about the public being able to understand the differance between a sport and an art that teaches self defense or traditional martial arts. I think that in general the people I know are pretty quick on the up take. Or maybe I am just giving them to much credit. :idunno:


 
No you're not giving them too much credit. Some people just assume that everybody that watches TV is dumb enough to think that what's on TV is true and indicative of all mankind. If that's the case we should all be shooting each other after watching so many Stallone and Schwarznegger movies over the years? :idunno:


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## AceHBK (Oct 11, 2006)

hey hey hey......
lets talk about whats important here.....

When did Tito start dating porn star Jenna Jamison???


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## CTKempo Todd (Oct 11, 2006)

AceHBK said:


> hey hey hey......
> lets talk about whats important here.....
> 
> When did Tito start dating porn star Jenna Jamison???


 
Yeah LOL I'm with you on that one...Yowzahhhhh!

I know gang..you are all right it is entertainment and the line is really blurred. Correct, it is happenning more and more in all of sports..
What does that say about our society? 
Its really sad if you have kids and trying to bring them up with what the martial arts are suppossed to espouse...and then turing the TV and on having someone 'bury them in a grave' after they get the win..C'mon..it is such a wrestling antic...

Someone commented that it was a class act to go be respectful after he loss...I ask you this...
Why couldn't he (or they) be respectful BEFORE the loss??...

So what you are saying is you will only be respectful IF i can beat you??

Good topic though...fun reading and discussing


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 11, 2006)

CTKempo Todd said:


> Yeah LOL I'm with you on that one...Yowzahhhhh!
> 
> I know gang..you are all right it is entertainment and the line is really blurred. Correct, it is happenning more and more in all of sports..
> What does that say about our society?
> ...


 
NOT at all. The point is that the fighters are human and have emotions like everyone else.  They shouldn't be held to this ultra high moral standard that the rest of society doesn't adhere to 100%.  People included pro fighters get pissed off, that's reality.  Being big enough to eventually get over it and admit it was wrong is reality too not hypocrisy.


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## someguy (Oct 11, 2006)

A lot of this is showmanship.  After all this is more than just doing martial arts.  It does involve making some serious money.  Morals... shoot I wouldn't be suprised if they would get along just fine outside of the ring before this fight.  I wouldn't be suprised if they wouldn't get along either but still, they are entertainers.


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## terryl965 (Oct 11, 2006)

Remember when the all mighty dollar comes into play morals usually goes out the window. So why not make a specticle of yourself if they the people are willing to pay you for it, I know if someone offered me 100,000 to get knock out in 30 seconds I would or better yet when he touches me fall and start tapping.


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## matt.m (Oct 11, 2006)

I liked the Hamil fight.  For the record I think Shamrock retired with class.  He lost and was quite sporting about it.


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## seal (Oct 15, 2006)

I like how some people say nobdoy wanted to see this fight, when the show and the match gave SpikeTV it's biggest ratings ever.  It stands as the most watch mma event and match in North America.  

For those of you who GET IT, I realized a long time ago that certain people just don't understand that this is a business and they probably never will.  The term commonly used to describe these people are hardcore MMA fans, but I'm sure not all hardcore MMA fans are blind to the fact of business first, sport second.  For the record, I'm a huge fan of pro wrestling and MMA.


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