# "Boxing: The Martial Artist's Reality Check"



## Zujitsuka

There is an interesting article on Boxing v. Karate/Kung Fu at this site, http://www.ymaa.com/pdf/YMAANEWS63.pdf (on pages 4 and 5).

Enjoy and I look forward to hearing what others think.

Regards,


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## kenposcum

Well, duh.
Boxers fight.  At the heart of what the martial artist does, there should be the knowledge that he may someday have to go kick some thug butt, ie, fight.
George Dillman relates a story where he told Muhammad Ali that Ali couldn't take him because "I'm in karate and I'm reallgood at it."  Ali stepped in and Dillman kicked him in the leg and then did something else(I forget).  Dillman says Ali said, "I see your point."  
KISS is a good principle to keep in mind.  I've seen lots of overcomplication in the arts(at which point I usually shake my head and walk away--I am respectful).  
We also need to remember that boxing is not combat.  It is competition.  However, the best boxers have always viewed their fights as VIOLENCE.  That psychological edge helps defeat an opponent who is just playing a sport.
I'd rather have to deal with a silly, drenched in mysticism martial artist than a boxer.  But I'd rather deal with a boxer than a realistic martial artist, who will not only punch hard and have good defensive skills, but who will also have a host of other deadly techniques (side kick to knee, eye gouges, arm breaks, groin rips, throat strikes) which might cripple, maim, or kill me.  Sure, a boxer can kill you too (head trauma can take anyone out), but the MARTIAL artist (note emphasis) can kill you quicker and more expediently.
So there's my $0.02.:asian:


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## GouRonin

Why is it people don't think that there isn't a full compliment of dirty tricks boxers learn and can pull off in full force?

Why is it people think that that boxers can't translate their art to combat? After all, most martial artists don't practice their art in anything other than "What if" mode. Boxers do it.

Do you think boxers only punch to the head? 

Why don't you drop down to your local boxing gym and explain your theory to them.


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## ace

Not to many Boxers could do it
In the Octagon.

Boxing is a great Sport.
I have done some.

But the moment U go out side the Rules
 it is no longer  Boxing.

Now  Boxing is great for many other things.
It has provided Great welth to those 
Who can go to the top.

It has a place.

& Yes it is a Martial Art.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *Not to many Boxers could do it
> In the Octagon.*



Not many Arnis players could do it in the octagon. Still if I gave them a knife and then said come on in I'd be betting on them more.

The Ocatgon isn't everything. Besides, Igor V says that Boxing is what he wins most of his fights with.



> _Originally posted by ace _
> *Boxing is a great Sport.
> I have done some.
> But the moment U go out side the Rules
> it is no longer  Boxing.*



Sure it is. People have this misconception of boxing only being about the sport. BJJ is a sport. But it has application. Is it no longer BJJ once you leave the rules behind?



> _Originally posted by ace _
> *Now  Boxing is great for many other things.
> It has provided Great wealth to those
> Who can go to the top.*



Actually, most of those at the top have no clue how to handle the wealth ans therefore act like loser thungs and spend all their dough. It's no surprise that a guy who never had money spends it like he'll never get anymore.



> _Originally posted by ace _
> *It has a place.
> & Yes it is a Martial Art. *



I would agree.


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## ace

Im 1 & 0 in MMA 
& traing for More

So this one Can!!


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## ace

Igor is a Kick Boxer 
Who cross trains in Sombo.

Boxing is great for hands
Conditioning is great sparing
 in Boxing is great 


Moder Arnis is my foundation 
But  i also Do Submisson Grappling, 
Wrestling & some Boxing.

I have trained in other arts to 
I am all ways looking to improve 
Fighting is what i love 
So i work real hard at it.

:yinyang:


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## ace

Yes when U leave the BJJ rules behined it
Becomes Vale Tudo!
:wavey:


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## ace

Ok maybe they don't know how to manege 
ther money but.
Being top Boxer gave them that
Advantege!
:wavey:


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## GouRonin

Vale Tudo it is. It's the same motions, just not with the rules.
 

No kidding, when a guy like Tyson can owe millions and have to fight just to pay for his taxes don't you think there is a problem? Sugar Ray Leonard's management company now forces fighters to invest in long term investments to ensure that they have some kind of retirement package. About time someone started this kind of practice I'd say. I hope more adopt it.


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## Rich Parsons

Gou said:

Not many Arnis players could do it in the octagon. Still if I gave them a knife and then said come on in I'd be betting on them more. The Ocatgon isn't everything. 


Rich Replied:

GouRonin,

Are you counting me out of the Octagon? Cause if you are then you have not seen my patented fall on your ankle and break it by 'accident' technique.  

On the Boxing issue, I have seen and know some good local boxers that were good fighters on the street. I have seen street fighters that could not throw a proper punch or kick, but sure knew how to stop and wild kick with their stealed toe boots.  

So, as stated before it is not the art but the person. OR go look at Gou's signature.

Best Regards

Rich


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Are you counting me out of the Octagon? Cause if you are then you have not seen my patented fall on your ankle and break it by 'accident' technique. *



You win! Uncle! UNCLE!


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## JDenz

Fighters fight.  FIghters train to fight.  Martial Artests trian.  That is alot diffrent.  I mean Honestly if you think any old black belt is going to beat Mike Tyson or any other boxer that fights pro it just isn't going to happen.


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> 
> *There is an interesting article on Boxing v. Karate/Kung Fu at this site, http://www.ymaa.com/pdf/YMAANEWS63.pdf (on pages 4 and 5).
> 
> Enjoy and I look forward to hearing what others think.
> 
> Regards, *


I think the author is wanting to stop the grouping of people into specific groups, but he is stereotyping as much as people who say boxing isn't a MA. I think alot of people in this thread are too. You have to remember that to get an accurate comparison the two people have to be comparable. the average black belt soccer mom is not comparable to Mike Tyson, sorry. Anyone can beat anyone on any given night, thats why its about the people. Lets not go into boxing vs. MA.  Thats a whole other thread!! 

7sm


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## Zujitsuka

***********************
Personally, I feel that people practice MA for different reasons (i.e. self-defense, exercise, discipline, culture, recreation, etc.) and their motiviations should respected.
************************

With that being said, I doubt that Dr. Yang who is a preserver of traditional Chinese martial arts would allow an article that outright trashes traditional martial arts to be printed in his newsletter.  Also, the author of the article is a traditional martial artist himself.

My understanding of the article is that it is not about the styles themselves, but rather the way different arts are taught. That is to say 'live training' (i.e. sparring against a resisting opponent) and a focus on physical conditioning as opposed to limiting training to the practice of forms and prearranged self-defense techniques against a compliant partner.

When it comes to fighting, it seems that a lot of martial artists think that having a vast arsenal of techniques will replace hard physical training, and live sparring.  That is the reality check the article was talking about.


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> 
> ************************
> Personally, I feel that people practice MA for different reasons (i.e. self-defense, exercise, discipline, culture, recreation, etc.) and their motiviations should respected.
> ************************
> 
> With that being said, I doubt that Dr. Yang who is a preserver of traditional Chinese martial arts would allow an article that outright trashes traditional martial arts to be printed in his newsletter.  Also, the author of the article is a traditional martial artist himself.
> 
> My understanding of the article is that it is not about the styles themselves, but rather the way different arts are taught. That is to say 'live training' (i.e. sparring against a resisting opponent) and a focus on physical conditioning as opposed to limiting training to the practice of forms and prearranged self-defense techniques against a compliant partner.
> 
> When it comes to fighting, it seems that a lot of martial artists think that having a vast arsenal of techniques will replace hard physical training, and live sparring.  That is the reality check the article was talking about. *



The author studied MA never actually said which system or how the auther trained. I think stereotyping MA in general as not sparing or practicing against "resisting opponants" as you did is just as bad as saying boxing is not a MA.

7sm


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## Zujitsuka

If you would look at the end of the article, you would have seen this on page 5:

"The author, Mr. Michael Rosenbaum, began his training at age 5 when his father first taught him Judo and Western style Boxing.  Since then he has studied both Okinawan Karate and Kobudo, Bando, Wado-ryu Karate, and is currently studying Yang style Tai Chi..."

Obviously with Judo and Western Boxing he practiced against resisting opponents.  There is no mention about what he did or does with the other arts.

He mentioned in the article that traditionalists often times get so caught up with the academic study and theory that they never investigate the practical (or impractical) application of the technique.  For instance, if one were to fight with his hands chambered at his sides as taught in traditional Karate, he is very, very vulnerable.  Also, a lunge punch is probably not what one would want to use in a fight.  A jab or a backfist is so much faster.

The fact of the matter is that most traditional martial arts do not have live sparring - IMO point fighting doesn't count because real fighting is not stopped when someone lands a blow.  Great men like Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo) and Bruce Lee have proven that by taking on all comers of traditional schools.  Most recently MMA fighters have proven what is practical and what is not.  This is not a stereotype of traditional martial arts.   The truth about what works is self-evident when pitted against a resisting opponent.

If one want to be considered a fighter, they must actually fight.

Respectfully,


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## 7starmantis

I study a traditional system and I "fight" more than most boxers I know. What I'm trying to get across is that it depends on the person. A person by person approach, you can't same most do this, or most do that, that is a stereotype, you have no idea how "most" traditional MAist train unless you have met every traditional MAist and trained with them.


7sm


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## ace

Were do U fight??????????????????/


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## JDenz

With all respect to you pro boxers fight 5-6 times a week.  I mean live sparring is what I am counting as fighting but still they are throwing leather alot.   All I am saying is that a boxer with the equal number of years training is more likely to beat the MA with the same amount of training.


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## ace

I agree with Jdenz
Unless U are training for MMA
Boxers  are in fighting condition

I train for MMA 
& i still don't want to go 
Toe to toe with a Boxer.
These guy spit teeth & keep coming.

Take it to the floor & break something.


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## JDenz

Even then if you are not in the ring who knows maybe they will come back for more.  Boxing is defintily a tough tough sport


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## 7starmantis

Ok, thats fine that you have your own opinions about boxers training habits as opposed to MAist. But you can't judge my personal training regime without participating in it. I live spar 4 days a week, all of them being bare knuckle. Boxers through alot of punches, that is very true, but why because someone practices boxing do people automaticaly assume they throw more than anyone else? I train with a very serious boxer once a week, he is a terrific fighter and boxer, but his training stops quite a bit before mine does. I'm jsut trying to point out that you can't stereotype ANYONE in ANY system.


7sm


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## ace

I agree  it is not the Style
it's the fighter.

I do mostly Submisson Wrestling

Striking is good & it complaments
Grappling.

Boxers train to fight
Ive trained with Boxers
They are tuff
U hit them they get happy

Most Martial Artist ive met don't have a clue as to what 
it takes to be a fighter.

Im not picking on anyone 
It's not easy to be a fighter.

It's serious Sh**


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *I agree  it is not the Style
> it's the fighter.
> 
> I do mostly Submisson Wrestling
> 
> Striking is good & it complaments
> Grappling.
> 
> Boxers train to fight
> Ive trained with Boxers
> They are tuff
> U hit them they get happy
> 
> Most Martial Artist ive met don't have a clue as to what
> it takes to be a fighter.
> 
> Im not picking on anyone
> It's not easy to be a fighter.
> 
> It's serious Sh** *



Very true, however, I would have to add that boxers are conditioned to take hits in the head nad upper chest, but not neccesarily where they would allways get hit or kicked. I knee break is pretty much an ending move regardless of your sytle or training ability in my opinion.

7sm


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## JDenz

First of all I am not saying you in general "All I am saying is that a boxer with the equal number of years training is more likely to beat the MA with the same amount of training."  of course there are exceptions to every rule.


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## ace

Thats y I have practise Mauy Thai.
Those guys are the tuffest SoB i've ever met.

I pre-fer Submisson Wrestling 
It's not the same striking trama

Knees can be an end but
I count on nothing & Everything To win.

Submissons Are what i do best
But i cross train as 
Much as i can


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *I agree  it is not the Style
> it's the fighter.*



I totally agree.



> _Originally posted by ace _
> *Ive trained with Boxers
> U hit them they get happy*



My coach used to say that's when you know it's time to retire. When you like to get hit.



> _Originally posted by ace _
> *Most Martial Artist ive met don't have a clue as to what
> it takes to be a fighter.
> Im not picking on anyone
> It's not easy to be a fighter.
> It's serious Sh** *



Spoken like a true fighter.
:asian:


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## JDenz

I have seen alot of fights and seen a few people try the knee kick and I haven't seen it end a fight yet just MHO.


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## JDenz

GouRonin how did you post the quote like that?


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## Zujitsuka

This is not about how I train, you train, he trains, or she trains.  It is about how most martial artists are not athletes.  They do not do anywhere near the cardio and strength development that boxers do.  Why?  Because boxers know that they have to spar to gauge their progress while most traditional martial artists are not required to spar.  I don't know how one can gauge their abilities without actually fighting.

I've seen traditional types fight in self-defense situations and when they fight, all of their technique goes out of the window.  They look like an untrained fighter.  On the other hand, I've seen boxers and wrestlers fight in self-defense/street situations and a hook is still a hook and a suplex is still a suplex.

If your kwoon, dojo, dojang, or gym has live sparring...EXCELLENT!  However, I doubt that you'll be using lunge punches and horse stances.

Like ace said, most martial artists don't have a clue what it takes to be a fighter.

Of course, as I said previously, people take up martial arts for different reasons other than fighting/self-defense.  That is fine as long as they don't consider themselves a fighter.


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> 
> *This is not about how I train, you train, he trains, or she trains.  It is about how categorically most martial artists are not athletes.  The do not do anywhere near the cardio and strength development that boxers do.  Why?  Because boxers know that they have to spar to gauge their progress while most traditional martial artists are not required to spar.
> 
> I've seen traditional types fight and when they fight, all of their techniqe goes out of the window.  They look like an untrained fighter.  On the other hand, I've seen boxers and wrestlers fight in self-defense/street situations and a hook is still a hook and a suplex is still a suplex.
> 
> If your kwoon, dojo, dojang, or gym has live sparring...EXCELLENT!  However, I doubt that you'll be using lunge punches and horse stances.
> 
> Like ace said, most martial artists don't have a clue what it takes to be a fighter.
> 
> Of course, as I said previously, people take up martial arts for different reasons other than fighting/self-defense. *



:rofl:  I think you have stereotyped yourself as a bigot. :rofl: 

Most MAist in my school are in better shape then alot of pro athletes. They do extensive training regiments and in fact, I do not know many athletes at all that run 10 miles a day like every one of our advanced students do. Out 1st Black Level must fight other advanced students for one hour straight then fight out Sifu for another hour straight. Thats just half of the test. I do not know many athletes boxers or MAist that can fight full speed for two hours straight, do you?  Traditional MAist are not understood that is why people who do not have the knowledge think they do not fight. Maybe the McDojo's don't, but be careful making that statement around serious athletes that train in traditional systems. 
And yes, I use quite a few techniques in real situations including horse stance.


7sm

PS: I would say take a few classes with an experienced traditional MAist. You will begin to see what I am talking about.


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## Zujitsuka

Take it easy with the name-calling my man.  This forum is to exchange info and to express opinions with decorum, so please mind your manners.  I have always addressed everyone with absoulute respect and will continue to do so.

Neither the article or my posts asserted that ALL traditional martial artists are limited to forms and do not spar.  I have trained with bare-knuckle Karate guys so I know better than that.

Good for you and your school that you guys train hard and realistically.  I salute you for that.  Most traditional schools do not.  This is a fact.  There is too much stop and go to be considered hard or realistic.

If the shoe doesn't fit, you don't have to wear it.  So don't take it personally.


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## JDenz

Are you kidding me?  Do you really think there are that many martial artests who are in better shape then pro athletes?   There is no way.  I understand the point you are trying to make.  I am not saying that blackbelts are not in shape but there is no way that they have that kind of conditioning and power.  I come from a wrestling bakground and I haven't seen one person in the kind of shape I am in and I don't even think I am in wrestling shape anymore.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *GouRonin how did you post the quote like that? *



Use the *quote* button on the response.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis_
> *Most MAist in my school are in better shape then alot of pro athletes.*



I think you're delusional. You have to be kidding me. If they are, why are they not pro athletes?



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis_
> *They do extensive training regiments and in fact, I do not know many athletes at all that run 10 miles a day like every one of our advanced students do.*



You're kidding me right? You're not serious. Pro athletes scientifically tailor their training to their sport. This is ALL THEY DO. In fact 10 miles a day is something my coach used to ask all his fighters to do minimum. Come on. We were amateur!



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis_
> * Out 1st Black Level must fight other advanced students for one hour straight then fight out Sifu for another hour straight. Thats just half of the test.*



That is a test. A one time thing. Anyone who spends every day fighting for a minimum of 2 hours and then training basics and such would be a killer. You're confusing daily work with testing.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis_
> *I do not know many athletes boxers or MAist that can fight full speed for two hours straight, do you?*



No. Because boxers would have put them out way before then. If you're going for 2 hours then you're not going full out with intention to put them out of a fight. I have never seen a fight in any form that went full out for 2 hours with no break. The human body can't maintain that.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis_
> *Traditional MAist are not understood that is why people who do not have the knowledge think they do not fight. Maybe the McDojo's don't, but be careful making that statement around serious athletes that train in traditional systems.*



Make up your mind. You just claimed earlier that traditional serious MA are in better shape than pro athletes and now you claim traditional MA ARE athletes? Jeez, no wonder you're misunderstood.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis_
> *And yes, I use quite a few techniques in real situations including horse stance.*



I'm sorry about your misfortune.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis_
> *PS: I would say take a few classes with an experienced traditional MAist. You will begin to see what I am talking about.
> *



Unless you're talking Judo...I just can't see it. Even then, the conditions you're describing are sounding of german n@zi supersoldier experiments.

I think you better call the gov't because there is a war brewing in the middle east that sounds like they could use your school's help.


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## Damian Mavis

The message here is don't generalise.  7starmantis you also have to accept that most martial arts schools suck for actual fighting skills.  Just because your school and my school don't doesn't mean most are absolutely delusional in their ability.  This topic is always going to tick people off, just keep in mind everyone that generalising is ignorant and arrogant. 

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Zujitsuka

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *Most MAist in my school are in better shape then alot of pro athletes. They do extensive training regiments and in fact, I do not know many athletes at all that run 10 miles a day like every one of our advanced students do.*
> 
> 10 miles per day, huh?  That is good for a marathon runner but I don't think that sports science sees this type of cardio training as being extremely beneficial to combat athletes.  I keep reading and hearing about H.I.I.T. training.
> 
> Also, do these guys work and/or have personal lives?  That is a lot of training time.
> 
> *And yes, I use quite a few techniques in real situations including horse stance.*
> 
> You don't mean a stationary horse stance do you?
> 
> 
> *PS: I would say take a few classes with an experienced traditional MAist. You will begin to see what I am talking about. *
> 
> Yes, I have trained with a few traditional bare-knuckle karate types and a few Kung-Fu stylists.  Thanks for the suggestion though.


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *Are you kidding me?  Do you really think there are that many martial artests who are in better shape then pro athletes?   There is no way.  I understand the point you are trying to make.  I am not saying that blackbelts are not in shape but there is no way that they have that kind of conditioning and power.  I come from a wrestling bakground and I haven't seen one person in the kind of shape I am in and I don't even think I am in wrestling shape anymore. *



Well, I'm glad you think so highly of yourself. I'm not talking about blackbelts, we don't have belts in my system so thats irelevent, I'm talking about poerson to person, I'm not generalizing it to any sect. So what exactly is different from a pro athlete and an athlete that trains the same way but doesn't make money for it?


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I think you're delusional. You have to be kidding me. If they are, why are they not pro athletes?*


Ever seen a proffesional 7 Star Preying Mantis practitioner? Oh yeah, they are called Sifu's. Just because you can make money at something doesn't mean thats what you will do. I have a degree in vocal performance, but I'm not a singer, does that confuse you too?



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *That is a test. A one time thing. Anyone who spends every day fighting for a minimum of 2 hours and then training basics and such would be a killer. You're confusing daily work with testing.
> *


I think your confusing your training regime for ours. To test on something and pass you have to have done it quite often in the past. We don't just pull a test out of our ****, if your testing that level you are expected to perform at that level at any given time.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *
> No. Because boxers would have put them out way before then. If you're going for 2 hours then you're not going full out with intention to put them out of a fight. I have never seen a fight in any form that went full out for 2 hours with no break. The human body can't maintain that.*


If you have limitations on your body you will most certainly be unable to break them. The human body can deffinatly maintain it, and I assure you I have seen it done. It was completely full speed the entire time, that is the difference in the level of training an "amature" and a "pro" would be doing.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *
> Make up your mind. You just claimed earlier that traditional serious MA are in better shape than pro athletes and now you claim traditional MA ARE athletes? Jeez, no wonder you're misunderstood.*


Um, did you actualy read what you just typed? I never said traditional MAist are in better shape then pro athletes, I said these specific MAist were in better condition than most pro athletes. and you don't consider yourself and athlete? I'm sorry. MAist are athletes, I didn't claim MAist were pro athletes, you not even making sense now man.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I think you better call the gov't because there is a war brewing in the middle east that sounds like they could use your school's help. *


:rofl: :rofl: 

Wow, I'm sory you do not take your training as serious as we do, but thats the beauty of MA, people take it for what they want.


7sm


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> Most MAist in my school are in better shape then alot of pro athletes. They do extensive training regiments and in fact, I do not know many athletes at all that run 10 miles a day like every one of our advanced students do.
> 
> 10 miles per day, huh? That is good for a marathon runner but I don't think that sports science sees this type of cardio training as being extremely beneficial to combat athletes. I keep reading and hearing about H.I.I.T. training.
> 
> Also, do these guys work and/or have personal lives? That is a lot of training time.
> 
> And yes, I use quite a few techniques in real situations including horse stance.
> 
> You don't mean a stationary horse stance do you?
> 
> 
> PS: I would say take a few classes with an experienced traditional MAist. You will begin to see what I am talking about.
> 
> Yes, I have trained with a few traditional bare-knuckle karate types and a few Kung-Fu stylists. Thanks for the suggestion though.



Our circle of friends are pretty much our training buddies, so that takes care of our ersonal lives.  
I think cardio training is extremely imnportant for fighting, you can't run out of steam in the middle of a fight. Um, no I do not mean stationary horse stance, but I have droped to horse stance for a block or punch.

7sm


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## theneuhauser

look i just read that article,

and it is silly. im surprised that mr Yang actually endorses this guy. He states the obvious, then he goes on to state some ridiculous sweeping stereotypes about the traditional. now you know that that's not all true. not even close. So get off 7star's back. he was just trying to make this same point about the author. Mantis was just giving his own personal example about how he trains. 


and guess what, plenty of folks out there train traditionally and they train hard as hell, many don't. that's the way things are.

Guess what else, plenty of boxers dont train half as hard as they need to be. there's plenty of scrub boxers too. the major difference is that one is a profession, and the other is in essence, a recreation.i wont go on with the obvious.

to someone that didnt know any better, after reading that article, they would believe traditional martial arts to be a sport where everyone stops after one strike hits someone, and the only thing going on in the schools is kata. 


i respect dr yang, i like his books, i respect boxing, it's techniques are solid. i dont respect that silly article. my grandmother could have written a better one.

seriously, she could kick some tail back in the day............


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## Zujitsuka

I respect and accept thenehauser's points.

Thank you all for your comments on this topic.  Especially those of you that can convey your thoughts clearly without being rude.

Hopefully all of us are working hard at our craft to make sure that we can prove the stereotypes of traditional martial artists being too soft wrong, and boxing being perceived as "just a sport" both wrong.

OK, this topic is a wrap.

Next thread please...


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Ever seen a proffesional 7 Star Preying Mantis practitioner? Oh yeah, they are called Sifu's.*



Dear god no but I will seek one out asap because they sound like Ubermen according to you.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Just because you can make money at something doesn't mean thats what you will do. I have a degree in vocal performance, but I'm not a singer, does that confuse you too?*



Uh no. But it's becoming clearer who I am dealing with.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I think your confusing your training regime for ours. To test on something and pass you have to have done it quite often in the past. We don't just pull a test out of our ****, if your testing that level you are expected to perform at that level at any given time.
> *



I see. Confusing my training regime with yours. Nice argument. Can't back yours up so you attack mine. Gotcha. Ok.

In theory your dream sounds fanciful. Even plausible.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *If you have limitations on your body you will most certainly be unable to break them. The human body can deffinatly maintain it, and I assure you I have seen it done. It was completely full speed the entire time, that is the difference in the level of training an "amature" and a "pro" would be doing.*



Then if you can't put a guy out in under 2 hours you guys must suck. I bet 2 hour muggings happen all the time in that little village inside your head.

Please cite one 2 hour, full out, fight please. I need to hear it.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Um, did you actualy read what you just typed? I never said traditional MAist are in better shape then pro athletes, I said these specific MAist were in better condition than most pro athletes. and you don't consider yourself and athlete? I'm sorry. MAist are athletes, I didn't claim MAist were pro athletes, you not even making sense now man.*



Ok, I'll actually buy the specific athlete issue. But I never said I wasn't an athlete. I don't know where you got that from. I never said that.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Wow, I'm sory you do not take your training as serious as we do, but thats the beauty of MA, people take it for what they want.
> *



You have no idea what kind of training I do. Then again, I wasn't the one spewing cr@p about what I do to the world. That was you. Don't project your failure onto me.

But you're right taking things for what you want. I'll leave you to your magic supermen. Please let me know when you guys have achieved super duper kung fu chi lightning bolt shooting powers. Then I'm interested.


----------



## arnisador

Everyone,
Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## GouRonin

It was the _"super duper kung fu chi lightning bolt shooting powers"_ comment that did it wasn't it?

My bad.


----------



## JDenz

lol ya that two hour thing blows my mind.  I cannot picture two guys with no pads blasting each other for an hour.  Somehow something there sounds fishy.


----------



## 7starmantis

First thing I want to say is that I appologize to everyone involved in this thread yesterday, I had a horrible day and took the opportunity to vent on some of you guys. I know I was rude and I shouldn't have been, so I want to appologize first and formost.

To Gou:
   I'm sorry that you don't believe training excists like what I mentioned, it does happen. You seem by your posts to think that I am saying that you or anyone who doesn't train like that sucks. I'm not saying that, I don't think myself, or my training is any better than anyone else, I was simply making the point that gatergorizing is dangerous. That extremely hard training actualy does take place in traditional systems.


> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Uh no. But it's becoming clearer who I am dealing with.*


Is there something wrong with me having a degree in vocal performance? Oh wait, that must make me gay right? My wife would disagree with you, that really seems narrow minded of you if that is truly what you ment. I was trying to point out that I could be a professional singer in a choir, or something, but yet I don't choose to do that, does that mean I can't sing good, or even better than some people that are professional singers? Because I went back and got other degrees because I wanted to do something else with my life, means what exactly?



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I see. Confusing my training regime with yours. Nice argument. Can't back yours up so you attack mine. Gotcha. Ok.
> In theory your dream sounds fanciful. Even plausible.*


I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking your training, I have no idea how you train. You probably train harder than I do, but I was only mentioning my training to make the point that hard training does happen in tradition systems.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Then if you can't put a guy out in under 2 hours you guys must suck. I bet 2 hour muggings happen all the time in that little village inside your head.*


Other very narrow minded statement Gou, why are you so threatened by what I'm saying? There really is no reason to attack me personaly for my opinions. Let me explain the two hour deal. I could fight for 12 hours and never get my Sifu out of the fight, he is that much better than I am. The fight is to build your stamina for a fight. If you can fight straight for two hours don't you think you could handle whatever would come yourway on the street? I haven't seen many muggings with butterfly swords either but many systems use them.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Please cite one 2 hour, full out, fight please. I need to hear it.
> *


I'm not saying nor did I ever say that 2 hour fights happen all the time, where did you get that I was saying that? What I am saying is that if you can withstand that, wouldn't you think you could handle a 20 or 30 min real fight in the street when it counts? Many traditional CMAist in Hong Kong practice 5 and 6 hour horse stances, I don't think they would sit in horse stance for 6 hours during a fight do you? It is for stamina and for getting ready for a fight, the essence of any training at all, to be prepared.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Ok, I'll actually buy the specific athlete issue. But I never said I wasn't an athlete. I don't know where you got that from. I never said that.*


Neither did I. I asked if you considered yourself an athlete, i never said you were not one.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *You have no idea what kind of training I do. Then again, I wasn't the one spewing cr@p about what I do to the world. That was you. Don't project your failure onto me.
> 
> But you're right taking things for what you want. I'll leave you to your magic supermen. Please let me know when you guys have achieved super duper kung fu chi lightning bolt shooting powers. Then I'm interested.
> *



Again, why attack me personaly for my opinions and training habits? I allready said I have no idea of your training habits, so I won't, nor did I mention them. I don't believe I "spewed" anything about what I do TO the world, did I? I only mentioned my training habits to prove that serious training does exist, even in traditional systems.

Again, let me apoologize for my rudeness yesterday onthis thread, it was uncalled for and I appologize. Its hard to realize your dumping your frustrations and angers about things goign on in your day on posts, but I deffinatly was, and it was deffinatly wrong.


7sm


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *lol ya that two hour thing blows my mind.  I cannot picture two guys with no pads blasting each other for an hour.  Somehow something there sounds fishy. *



It blew my mind too!! I never imagined it possible until I actualy saw it.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *The message here is don't generalise.  7starmantis you also have to accept that most martial arts schools suck for actual fighting skills.  Just because your school and my school don't doesn't mean most are absolutely delusional in their ability.  This topic is always going to tick people off, just keep in mind everyone that generalising is ignorant and arrogant.
> 
> Damian Mavis
> Honour TKD *



True, that is something that happens regardless of style. Its sad, but it does happen.


7sm


----------



## kenposcum

Jeez, I go away for the weekend and everybody gets all testy!

Gou- I never said boxers can't, don't, or won't learn dirty tricks.  But if I boxer is training SPECIFICALLY for a prizefight, any dirty tricks he learns are going to be sneaky and less blatant than the side thrust kick to the knee.

Do I think boxers only punch to the head?  I'm sorry; did I come off as that much of a retard?

And as for dropping down to my local boxing gym, uh, I work out there 3x a week in the AM before school.  I was there yesterday.  So, gee, Gou, do you have any more enlightening suggestions to enhance my lack of knowledge vis a vis the sweet science?  
:asian:


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *I have seen alot of fights and seen a few people try the knee kick and I haven't seen it end a fight yet just MHO. *



You must not have seen a proper knee kick that actually crushed the knee t=like I was speaking of. I have actually seen that happen, and I'm telling you, there is not much fight left.

7sm


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *That extremely hard training actualy does take place in traditional systems.*



I would agree. Just not on pro althele level. And I am not talking because they get paid to do it.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Is there something wrong with me having a degree in vocal performance? Oh wait, that must make me gay right? My wife would disagree with you, that really seems narrow minded of you if that is truly what you ment. *



Actually, I was pointing out that your rapid diversion and flip flopping on your stance made me think that you can't hold a coherent argument. I don't know where you got the homosexual issue. I could care less if you're gay. Hell, I could care less if you keep cans of tomato soup in your @ss in the winter in case your dog sled team gets you lost and you don't want to starve. I know gay martial artists. They kick @ss. What they want to do in their spare time is none of my business nor do I pass judgement on them for what they do in their bedroom.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I was trying to point out that I could be a professional singer in a choir, or something, but yet I don't choose to do that, does that mean I can't sing good, or even better than some people that are professional singers? Because I went back and got other degrees because I wanted to do something else with my life, means what exactly?
> *



Sure you could be a pro singer but dropping into that career suddenly wouldn't happen because you'd have to bring yourself up to the level of the pros. You may be close I'd wager but you're not pro because most amateurs don't live close to that level when they do other careers because they can't due to to time, jobs etc.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking your training, I have no idea how you train. You probably train harder than I do, but I was only mentioning my training to make the point that hard training does happen in tradition systems.
> *



I never said I train harder or easier than you. I stated you don't know how I train because I never talked about it. You however did. When I stated my ideas on the reality of 2 hour fighting bouts not being fighting but really sparring, (Which is what it is, sparring, not the same as an all out fight) you told me:



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I think your confusing your training regime for ours. *


You attacked my training because I didn't agree with what you said. If you had said that in traditional systems there is hard training I would have agreed with you. It was the attempt to elevate yourself with pro athletes and 2 hour _"fights"_ that I disagreed with.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Let me explain the two hour deal. I could fight for 12 hours and never get my Sifu out of the fight, he is that much better than I am. The fight is to build your stamina for a fight. If you can fight straight for two hours don't you think you could handle whatever would come yourway on the street?*



Ok. Let's clear this up. You are not fighting. You are sparring. Sparring is not fighting. 2 hours of sparring I can see. 2 hours of fighting all out will not happen.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I'm not saying nor did I ever say that 2 hour fights happen all the time, where did you get that I was saying that?*



Here's a progression to it.



> _Gou spoke and spouted:_
> *I have never seen a fight in any form that went full out for 2 hours with no break. The human body can't maintain that.*





> _7starmantis proclaimed_
> *The human body can deffinatly maintain it, and I assure you I have seen it done. It was completely full speed the entire time*



Fights for 2 hours full out do not happen. What you are alluding to are sparring matches. Not the same thing.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *What I am saying is that if you can withstand that, wouldn't you think you could handle a 20 or 30 min real fight in the street when it counts? Many traditional CMAist in Hong Kong practice 5 and 6 hour horse stances, I don't think they would sit in horse stance for 6 hours during a fight do you? It is for stamina and for getting ready for a fight, the essence of any training at all, to be prepared.*



I would agree. Sparring is for working things out. For bringing stamina. For _"getting ready for the fight."_ You said it yourself. You are not fighting, you are sparring. You however were not saying that. Most of our whole argument was because you claimed things that were not. Not because they were not happening but because you were saying they were something they were not. You may call it fighting but it's sparring. Kapeesh?

By the way, the only time I ever fought close to 30 mins was in the ring and we had breaks between rounds. Plus it's not all action all the time. There are lulls. Every fight I have ever been in, from my local bar to dealing with them in my job has never gone more than a few minutes.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Again, let me apoologize for my rudeness yesterday onthis thread, it was uncalled for and I appologize. Its hard to realize your dumping your frustrations and angers about things goign on in your day on posts, but I deffinatly was, and it was deffinatly wrong.*



Don't apologize to me for fighting. If you want, say you're sorry you didn't use the proper terminology. In fact, I actually agree with most of what you say. It's when you tried to justify it that it got weird.

It's no surprise that if you put a bunch of real martial artists in a room together that a fight breaks out. Anyone who tries to tell you it'll be all hearts and flowers is selling you a load of cr@p. These are fighting arts and too many people confuse Budo with that.


----------



## JDenz

I can see two hours hard sparring that I definitly can see anytime.  I mean we spar for two hours sometimes.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I would agree. Just not on pro althele level. And I am not talking because they get paid to do it.*


Then you are wrong, thats all there is to it.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _*
> Actually, I was pointing out that your rapid diversion and flip flopping on your stance made me think that you can't hold a coherent argument. I don't know where you got the homosexual issue. I could care less if you're gay. Hell, I could care less if you keep cans of tomato soup in your @ss in the winter in case your dog sled team gets you lost and you don't want to starve. I know gay martial artists. They kick @ss. What they want to do in their spare time is none of my business nor do I pass judgement on them for what they do in their bedroom.*


So because you can't coerse me to your opinion I am unable to hold a valid argument? Lets just go ahead and drop this where it lies, there is an old NA saying that goes, arguing with a fool makes you look foolish.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _*
> Sure you could be a pro singer but dropping into that career suddenly wouldn't happen because you'd have to bring yourself up to the level of the pros. You may be close I'd wager but you're not pro because most amateurs don't live close to that level when they do other careers because they can't due to to time, jobs etc.*


Again, a nasty generalizing statement that has no validity or truth behind it. How would you know what level a person keeps their talents at? Because some don't keep it up, means that everyone doesn't? Thats too closeminded for me, I liek to take each person case by case. IF you studied music history you would know that isn't the case, many times the people who do it for the sheer love of it are much better than people who do it for money or fame. That goes for anything.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _*
> I never said I train harder or easier than you. I stated you don't know how I train because I never talked about it. You however did. When I stated my ideas on the reality of 2 hour fighting bouts not being fighting but really sparring, (Which is what it is, sparring, not the same as an all out fight) you told me:*


Again, a statement that you have no knowledge of. You have no idea how that goes because you have never been there to see it, so how can you disprove or even prove it? You can't, you can only speculate, which is what your posts seem to bee mostly about.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _*
> Ok. Let's clear this up. You are not fighting. You are sparring. Sparring is not fighting. 2 hours of sparring I can see. 2 hours of fighting all out will not happen.
> 
> By the way, the only time I ever fought close to 30 mins was in the ring and we had breaks between rounds. Plus it's not all action all the time. There are lulls. Every fight I have ever been in, from my local bar to dealing with them in my job has never gone more than a few minutes.*


Lets clear it up for good this time, you have no knowledge or proof of any kind about what you are discrediting. Why can't you just say, good for you guys, good to see some serious MAist at work? Yet, because it threatens you in some manner, you must attack it? Thats why we study MA in the first place, to show the wolrd that what is differnet isn't allway in need of attack.


7sm


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## Phil Elmore

7starmantis, you use more evasions and cheap intellectual dodges than I've seen in a long time, and I've seen plenty.  You're defensive, oversensitive, quick to take offense where none is offered, and generally a little too tightly wrapped for your own good.

Calm down.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> 
> *7starmantis, you use more evasions and cheap intellectual dodges than I've seen in a long time, and I've seen plenty.  You're defensive, oversensitive, quick to take offense where none is offered, and generally a little too tightly wrapped for your own good.
> 
> Calm down. *



Sorry I come off as wound up, I'm most deffinatly not. I'm very passionate about my training and about MA, but then what is a serious MAist about? Quote me a "cheap intelectual doge" and I will repost it, I have no intention of doing any of that, I'm simply trying to make a point without having to defend my validity each time.


7sm


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *7starmantis, you use more evasions and cheap intellectual dodges than I've seen in a long time, and I've seen plenty.  You're defensive, oversensitive, quick to take offense where none is offered, and generally a little too tightly wrapped for your own good.
> Calm down. *




Kinda funny isn't he?
:shrug:


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Kinda funny isn't he?
> :shrug: *



:rofl:  speaking of evasions

Look Gou, lets just drop it, its obvious you are incabable of accepting differing opinions from your own, so lets just drop it and save everyone on these threads from your personal attacks on me because of my opnions.


7sm


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## Phil Elmore

Dragging the conversation onto the topic of someone accusing you [incorrectly, one presumes] of being a homosexual is a great example of an intellectual dodge.

Accusing Gou of making personal attacks because he can't "force" you to see his side of things is another good example, though a less obvious one.

The validity of one's argument is found in one's chain of reasoning.  Criticizing that chain of reasoning is not synonymous with an attack on the reasoner.  (Accusing someone of being so "close minded" that they cannot accept your opinion _would be_, however.)


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> 
> *Dragging the conversation onto the topic of someone accusing you [incorrectly, one presumes] of being a homosexual is a great example of an intellectual dodge.*


That would be a good point if it were actually true. What I did post was a question and a statement that if he truly ment that, then that was closeminded, which I believe it is.



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> Accusing Gou of making personal attacks because he can't "force" you to see his side of things is another good example, though a less obvious one.*


Actually, that wouldn't be dodging anything, but offering my opinion of why the thread was turned to a "duke-out" between me and Gou. He did make personal attacks, and what other reason do I have to offer than its because of my opinions?



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _*
> The validity of one's argument is found in one's chain of reasoning.  Criticizing that chain of reasoning is not synonymous with an attack on the reasoner.  (Accusing someone of being so "close minded" that they cannot accept your opinion would be, however.) *



If I said you were full of Crap, would that be considered an attack to you? Because that happened several times in Gou's posts about me and my "fantasies of superduper lightingbolt shooting chi powers" (as he so delicatly and non invasivly put it) 

Lets just forget this whole crap and focus on the thread, shall we?

Dang, you guys get serious in here!!

7sm


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Lets just forget this whole crap and focus on the thread, shall we?*



Actually I'd like to hear more about your _"fantasies of superduper lightingbolt shooting chi powers"_ That sounds more interesting.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Actually I'd like to hear more about your "fantasies of superduper lightingbolt shooting chi powers" That sounds more interesting.
> *



Well you thought it up, and you tend to think only yourslef as interesting so it should be to you. Now for the rest of us who are actually interested in discussing MA, your turning this into an unpleasent thread, can we please forget what "squabbles" might have happened and move on with the subject matter? After 33 or so years of your life and you can't let things go that truly don't matter? You must be a good fighter, I can only imagine you get lots of practice. 

Look, seriously, I've PM'd you and all, lets stop this crap and let the thread go back to its original subject matter, can we? I'm not going to stoop to arguing and personal attacks because of personal opinions, that is the type of people I am trying to prove foolish with MA. Last time, would you please lay off, so we can get back to mature adult discussion on this thread?


7sm


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Now for the rest of us who are actually interested in discussing MA, your turning this into an unpleasent thread, can we please forget what "squabbles" might have happened and move on with the subject matter? After 33 or so years of your life and you can't let things go that truly don't matter?
> 
> Look, seriously, I've PM'd you and all, lets stop this crap and let the thread go back to its original subject matter, can we? Last time, would you please lay off, so we can get back to mature adult discussion on this thread?*



I would but it's arrogant guys like you that make me wanna puke. Really. I looove how you found a way to insult me while asking me to stop. Brilliant.



> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I'm not going to stoop to arguing and personal attacks*



But yet you constantly do. In fact, in your PM you insulted me.

Here's the hint. Talk about the subject at hand. Then don't fly off the handle and post stuff that isn't fully true. Then we'll be ok.


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## JDenz

They thoght me and Primo were bad


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## GouRonin

Tim Hartman's snoring is bad!

For the longest time when I visited I thought he lived around the corner from a lumber mill.

How do you guys deal with that? Is he near the airport and he drowns them out? Ha ha ha!


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I would but it's arrogant guys like you that make me wanna puke. Really. I looove how you found a way to insult me while asking me to stop. Brilliant.
> 
> Here's the hint. Talk about the subject at hand. Then don't fly off the handle and post stuff that isn't fully true. Then we'll be ok. *



We'll be ok if you don't make assumptions that what I'm saying isn't fully true when you have no idea if it is or not. I'm sorry I came across as arrogant, I'm just confused as to why you think I'm the arrogant one when your sitting here determining the validity of what I say with no knowledge to back it up, thats my only issue with you Gou, so we'll put it behind us and agree to disagree, is that cool? I won't make assumptions about you and you refrain yourself from making them about me, and we'll just go on with the subjects at hand.  Works for me. 
I think we have convered this thread so I'll sign off now, I have enjoyed the stimulating discussion though.

7sm


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## Phil Elmore

Not knowing either of you I'm going to have to side with Gou.  The fact that you cannot see your evasions even when they are pointed out to you indicates how poorly equipped you are to have this sort of discussion, 7.


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> 
> *Not knowing either of you I'm going to have to side with Gou.  The fact that you cannot see your evasions even when they are pointed out to you indicates how poorly equipped you are to have this sort of discussion, 7. *



Thats great there Phil, except that we have decided to just forget the whole argumentative thing and go on with serious subject matter. And I'm pretty sure we aren't trying to take sides here, so can we get back to the original subject of the post?


7sm


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## kenposcum

Boxing is good.  Typically boxers, or individuals who train as boxers, usually are in pretty good shape and can usually take a punch pretty well.  Sometimes they can even punch, too.
Martial arts are good.  When viewed realistically, the techniques of the martial arts offer a response to virtually any physical altercation one may find oneself in.  Some martial artists don't train very hard, or they don't know what it feels like to get hit hard(or at all).  Some martial artists train really hard, with lots of hard sparring and cardio work and all kinds of training geared towards making them more capable fighters.
I would contend that it is the severity of the training, as opposed to the art being trained, that informs a fighter's effectiveness in combat (sure, being trained severly in Fireball-do or something won't help, but you get the idea).
And mods, could you erase the last four pages or so of this thread?
:asian:


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## GouRonin

I don't see why the last 4 pages should be erased. Leave them where they stand.


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## kenposcum

But it's soooo BOOOORING! 

About fights going on for more than two hours: what about the old-timey bareknucklers who sometimes fought for hours and hours?  The rounds weren't timed, but if one fighter got knocked down, either with a punch or through limited wrestling, that fighter then had thirty seconds to "come up to scratch" for the next round.  I know it's not an all-out FIGHT fight, but the intensity was probably higher than that in a typical sparring session.  The fighters often broke both hands (this was bare knuckle)  but not every time...it would be cool to see how many fights of that era went for hours, and what the circumstances were (both fighters reduced to powder punching due to broken hands, one fighter dropping from exhaustion, etc.).  But the human body is capable of some pretty amazing stuff).:asian:


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by kenposcum _
> *But it's soooo BOOOORING! *



So doooon't read!
:rofl: 



> _Originally posted by kenposcum _
> *About fights going on for more than two hours: what about the old-timey bareknucklers who sometimes fought for hours and hours?  The rounds weren't timed, but if one fighter got knocked down, either with a punch or through limited wrestling, that fighter then had thirty seconds to "come up to scratch" for the next round.  I know it's not an all-out FIGHT fight, but the intensity was probably higher than that in a typical sparring session.  The fighters often broke both hands (this was bare knuckle)  but not every time...it would be cool to see how many fights of that era went for hours, and what the circumstances were (both fighters reduced to powder punching due to broken hands, one fighter dropping from exhaustion, etc.).  But the human body is capable of some pretty amazing stuff).:asian: *



I hear you about the human body and i would agree.

In the old boxing days they had 30 seconds or whatever decided time limit to get back up. This is where the expression _"Toe The Line"_ came from. Originally boxing included throws and much more as well. However, 30 seconds can be a long time and a nice rest.


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## JDenz

Besides for that I don't think even those tough SOB would fight like that for two hours for training and come out of it being able to train the next day.


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## 7starmantis

I don't think most people could come out a a full speed fight/sparring match and be able to do much at all the next day! 

7sm


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## JDenz

That was my thought excatley


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## arnisador

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## thatoneguy

hehe ummm this conversation has kind of wondered away from the original subject hasnt it

anybody remember what it started with


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Why is it people don't think that there isn't a full compliment of dirty tricks boxers learn and can pull off in full force?
> 
> Why is it people think that that boxers can't translate their art to combat? After all, most martial artists don't practice their art in anything other than "What if" mode. Boxers do it.
> 
> Do you think boxers only punch to the head?
> 
> Why don't you drop down to your local boxing gym and explain your theory to them. *


I agree

Boxing is as good as any other martial art.  It depends on how you train it.  But I've also seen boxers who slack off and throw outlandish combos and are usually just thrown off balance so it goes both ways.


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## JDenz

Go to a boxing gym tell them you are a martial artist and see what they think of you.  I mean they are for real.


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## GouRonin

Guys used to roll into the boxing gym when I was still working out there and often they would get into the ring and get an old fashioned @sswhuppin'.

The only guys that we totally respected were the kickboxers who shared the gym with us on alternate days.

One of the funniest things I ever saw/heard was a TKD guy trying to explain point fighting to us. Martial arts point fighting and boxing point fighting are not the same but they guy was talking about gloves touching etc etc. So when he got hit he'd stop and try to explain and the guy would be saying, _"Yeah, my white section of the glove hit you! What's the problem? It's my point!"_

The TKD guy tried to explain that they had to break when a point was scored and how the other guy should pull his punch. Finally the guys just looked up very confused and said, _"Man, TKD is pretty stupid..."_

I never laughed so hard.

Just to be honest I only use TKD because that was the one that stuck out in my memory. A lot of styles used to cruise by. So I'm not picking on TKD ok?


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## Zujitsuka

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Guys used to roll into the boxing gym when I was still working out there and often they would get into the ring and get an old fashioned @sswhuppin'.*



I agree with you GouRonin.  I started going to a boxing gym last October (2001) and it has been a real wake-up call.  A lot of martial artists get used to 2-step sparring, point fighting, and having a compliant uke.  When you have a motivated, aggressive foe in front of you who is trying to "put your head to bed," it is a totally different ball game.

If someone really wants to know what their made of, they need to get in the ring and mix it up from time to time, IMHO.  This is the only way you can test your mettle and see if skills are up to par.

BTW, did you guys see the Mayorga/Forrest fight last Saturday?  Mayorga is the new raging bull, huh?

Peace & blessings,


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## JDenz

Ya most of those guys look at martial artest as kids playing a game.  Any gym that has some guys that are fighting in it are hard core places.  No time for games there.


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## Infight

Man, cant believe there is 7 Stars praying mantis praticioners out there! HAHAHAHA, i just found out one gym in my hole state, and just noticed it cause it was near my friends house, and the sifu of there made trouble with my friend, and i had to put him uncouncious. HAHAHAHa hilarious, i though this was some creation of a crazy brazilian try to earn some money with a brand new MA, but since this guys on post exist, there is more around the world, hahaha, hilarious!
                 7 stars, i sparred with boxers and got knocked down mmany times, there are monsters in their hands, i dont think any MA can defeat them that easly....i dont think fight Tyson is some wise thing to do (mostly if you are a sifu of 7 stars,lol), i must tell that i rather run away than face him.
                 All profissional guys train all days, so they got an excelent cardio, as a good movement, and appurated techniques, all of it 12 hours a day, resting only sundays. I dont think i simple praticioner of martial art cant be in shape as they are.


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## muayThaiPerson

Most martial arts lack violence. They have techniques and kicks bbut their punches suck, and you cant make up for it using kicks. punchin is one of the most important things in combat. Muay Thai, i dont cosider it a MA...honostly. its more combat oriented. if a boxer went up against an MT guy, which ive seen....given the same weight, hieght and experience, the MT guy would mess up the boxer really bad. The reaason is because of the knees and elbows. 

But, ive seen ju jitsu against boxnig, boxingn got messed up too. Boxing is not a martial art since theres just brute force. Its full contact and toughens you. MA just get you fast adn build technique, but if theres no real contact then its uselss

just my 2 cents


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> * Boxing is not a martial art since theres just brute force. Its full contact and toughens you. MA just get you fast adn build technique, but if theres no real contact then its uselss
> just my 2 cents *



Keep your 2 cents. You're wrong. They don't call boxing _"the sweet science"_ for nothing. It has plenty of technique and art to it. It's one of the few true western martial arts. (Ok, Fencing is too)


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## muayThaiPerson

Dictionary.com defines "martial art" : martial art
n. 
Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.

boxing is western and is a sport rather than self defense


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## GouRonin

So any art that is not asian is not a martial art? Boxing is practiced as a self defense a lot. Just as much as many other arts. Just that the sport aspect is very popular. Just because it's western does not exclude it. Otherwise you'd have to exclude Savate, Russian Arts, South American Arts. etc.

Boxing is a martial art.


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## cali_tkdbruin

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *Dictionary.com defines "martial art" : martial art
> n.
> Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.
> 
> boxing is western and is a sport rather than self defense *



Under the definition above Israeli *Krav Maga* would also be excluded as a Martial Art which would be, IMO, incorrect.

Hey, how about this definition from the Scholastic Dictionary instead:

"*martial art* _noun_ A style of fighting or self-defense that comes mostly from the Far East; for example, judo or karate.
(note mostly, but not only from the Far East)

Boxing fits the profile and should be considered a Martial Art along with Krav Maga... :asian:


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## Elfan

> Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.



I supose *American* Kenpo isn't a martial art then?  Thats an old definition thats in my Grandmother's college dictinary.  The use of the phrase has changed a lot since then.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *I supose *American* Kenpo isn't a martial art then? *



American Kenpo is principally Southern Chinese kung fu and hence would qualify. I do agree however that there is a semantic issue here--many people mean _Oriental_ martial art when they say martial art, but in fact I think that boxing, wrestling, etc. qualify.

This raises an issue discussed on MartialTalk before--a martial art vs. a martial sport:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6118
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3913
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1124


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## Infight

Wanna know if Boxe is a Martial Art? Here goes a tip, any Striker is invited to do that, go to a Boxe gym, face that monster of muscle and call them for a single fight til knockdown ( remember to take a doctor aside ), then go for it with any martial art you pratice (does not count grappling arts), then tell us the result.
           I bet youre purple eye will tell us something, lol


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## cali_tkdbruin

That's what I'm talking about. See my shiner... :erg:


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## GouRonin

If you have a shiner you're just showing your school colours. Just that good clubs have the school colours of _"Black and Blue."_


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *If you have a shiner you're just showing your school colours. Just that good clubs have the school colours of "Black and Blue." *



Mine also has that real nice shade of deep purple and even some times the crimson of red blood. 

Good School Colors all


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## cali_tkdbruin

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *If you have a shiner you're just showing your school colours. Just that good clubs have the school colours of "Black and Blue." *



Yeah, my favorite MA belt color isn't black, it's a shade of purplish-redish-yellow...


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *Man, cant believe there is 7 Stars praying mantis praticioners out there! HAHAHAHA, i just found out one gym in my hole state, and just noticed it cause it was near my friends house, and the sifu of there made trouble with my friend, and i had to put him uncouncious. HAHAHAHa hilarious, i though this was some creation of a crazy brazilian try to earn some money with a brand new MA, but since this guys on post exist, there is more around the world, hahaha, hilarious!
> 7 stars, i sparred with boxers and got knocked down mmany times, there are monsters in their hands, i dont think any MA can defeat them that easly....i dont think fight Tyson is some wise thing to do (mostly if you are a sifu of 7 stars,lol), i must tell that i rather run away than face him.
> All profissional guys train all days, so they got an excelent cardio, as a good movement, and appurated techniques, all of it 12 hours a day, resting only sundays. I dont think i simple praticioner of martial art cant be in shape as they are. *


For someone who gets knocked down a lot, you do act arrogant and ignorant of other people of other styles 

News flash!  Don't know what 7 stars is, but I have seen many good praying mantis people who've held their own against boxers, that kinda puts your thing out of the water.

Tyson is a professional, and I wouldn't like going up against him.  Also remember, Tyson did some aikido studying.


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## MartialArtist

Boxing is a martial art.

The simple and dirty fighting techniques they teach you at the military academies for officers is watered-down boxing, muay thai, TKD, wing chun, wrestling, and judo stamped down where one can have an easy time learning it and defend themselves in most situations, but won't excel in experienced opponents.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

I believe Boxing is a Martial Art, just like any other.

I would just like to add... I hear so much talk about the Octagon and fighting in the Octagon.

Can this really be called "fighting"? Yes, two people are combating each other until one gives up (consciously or unconsciously), but is fighting REALLY limited to the rules of the Otcagon? NHB? or any of those MMA events?

One must consider the possibility of multiple assailants, weapons, terrain... the list continues. To call these events fighting would be placing a limit on true fighting. 

Just wanted to pay Devil's advocate for a momnent.


:asian:


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## Infight

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *For someone who gets knocked down a lot, you do act arrogant and ignorant of other people of other styles
> 
> News flash!  Don't know what 7 stars is, but I have seen many good praying mantis people who've held their own against boxers, that kinda puts your thing out of the water.
> 
> Tyson is a professional, and I wouldn't like going up against him.  Also remember, Tyson did some aikido studying. *



  HAHAHA, Good joke! A praying mantis defeating a Boxer, my white belt BJJ cousin 14 years old can defeat a praying mantis praticioner. If what are you saying is true, show any proof, like photo, related link, that it happened in any place in our galaxy!
  About Tyson, wouldnt be a calm time facing him, but unfortunatly he doesnt pratice anything on ground, thats a great flaw! I think any guy with at least purple belt in BJJ or equivalent in Wrestling or Sambo or something similar (with the same weight that he has ) can defeat him.


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## arnisador

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Zepp

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *About Tyson, wouldnt be a calm time facing him, but unfortunatly he doesnt pratice anything on ground, thats a great flaw! I think any guy with at least purple belt in BJJ or equivalent in Wrestling or Sambo or something similar (with the same weight that he has ) can defeat him. *



Just out of curiosity, have you ever expressed yor opinions about othe martial arts to your BJJ instructor?  I think we'd all be curious to hear what he would have to say about this kind of thing.


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## sweeper

actualy, infight you don't know wht he practices..  It doesn't take much knowledge of grappling/groundfighting to negate a grapplers ability..  Maurice Smith winning the UFC I think is proof of that..  at the time he had very little grappling ability.

In a combined fight you have to be able to maximise your strengths, that's why some grapplers can beat out an "equaly" skilled striker..  But if the striker's smart and so is the grappler things are alot diffrent.


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## JDenz

I have to disagree with you when Mo Smith fought Colemen the fight I imgine that you are talking about he was training with very good fighters the Shamrocks Tk and others.  He was very good on the ground and even still he was getting handled by Coleman till he got tired.   Also Coleman was never finished in that fight, not only that Colemans has never been known as a finisher, He takes you down and pounds you that is his game.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *HAHAHA, Good joke! A praying mantis defeating a Boxer, my white belt BJJ cousin 14 years old can defeat a praying mantis praticioner. If what are you saying is true, show any proof, like photo, related link, that it happened in any place in our galaxy!
> About Tyson, wouldnt be a calm time facing him, but unfortunatly he doesnt pratice anything on ground, thats a great flaw! I think any guy with at least purple belt in BJJ or equivalent in Wrestling or Sambo or something similar (with the same weight that he has ) can defeat him. *


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Box Out 2003

i only ever met one or two martial artists that train as hard as boxers do. one was dougie and hes a boxer as far as i am concerned who went out to learn other stuff to fight in more ways than boxing. the other was a guy who is dougies coach for wrestling i think. all the other guys who showed up at the gym or i met were pretty much guys who sucked and thought they could fight but never put what they were learning into use. all that chopping the air must be fun but when you never practice what you learn i guess it's useless. i cant complain though because the lumping on them was fun. what bugged me was listening to them talk after about how if it was a real fight they would have done this or that. guess what. it was a real fight and you got your butt kicked.


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## JDenz

lol


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## Box Out 2003

i know exactly how you feel JDenz. its enough to make you laugh. if i ever came back to active competition it would be to ufc stuff because for me i see its boxing added to real fighting. i did boxing and a lot of these tie kwon doe guys who would come in made me laugh. i was talking to Dougie last night about this board and he had a laugh about some people here. i told him about some of the karate guys here and he sent me this in my e-mail.

>From:sokolistalina@hotmail.com
>To:boxout2003@yahoo.ca

>Pedro
>Tell them that there are plenty of amateur mma tournaments >they can enter or boxing gyms they can walk into. No one is >stopping them. It's not our responsibility to go trekking halfway >across the ****ing country every time some whiner says his >style can beat an NHB fighter or Boxer.

>Tell them, "we beat you and beat you and you still circle us like >gnats, shouting things like 'a REAL master would kill you!' or 'our >style is for the street!'"

>How many times do we have to crush them like puny ants?
>It's getting boring and takes away from our own training time.

>If that doesn't ruffle some of their feathers it's only because >they realized the truth.


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## Damian Mavis

Heh, and the Muay Thai guys think they can kick the crap out of the boxers... and the boxers think they can kick the crap outta TKD... and the grapplers think they can beat all the striking arts... bunch of arrogant pompous windbags all of you..... but half my friends are these pompous arrogant windbags so you learn to love them.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## JDenz

lol well it isn't very far to make a tkd guy go to the gym and put on the gloves,   If you do it is testing there boxing.  And I am sure that some tkd guys would win but boxers train to be hit.  It takes a special person to be a boxer.


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## Zujitsuka

We really should not put down other martial arts.  It is not that boxing or any one martial art is better than the next, but it is the training methods employed (i.e. medium to hard contact).

Like JDenz said, it takes a special person to be a boxer.  It is a rough sport.  I trained at a gym for a few months and it for certain was the most painful, yet enlightening months of my life.  You develop mental toughness, you get in phenomenal shape, and you develop that elusive quality that the Japanese call 'fudoshin' (composure under fire).

When someone is chasing you around the ring trying to knock your block off, adrenaline is going to be racing through your veins.  It is beneficial to feel that rush because you'll learn that when you're under the influence (of adrenaline), your fine motor skills are non-existent.  That in itself will help you realize that it is best to stick to the basics and keep things simple.  You'll also learn to not freeze up, because if you do, you will get lumped up.

Peace & blessings,


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## JDenz

lol you don't want freeze up


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## soccer50

Like MuayThaiPerson said. Fist are the primary weapons, thats why i cross train in boxing. TKD, honostly, i dont care what you guys say but its like the wost ***** ever. If you guys ever really got down, you'd kno that theres no fancy kick and crap like that. its all about speed and evasion and staying on your feet. another thing, boxing is not a martial art, its a sport.  i dont know how the hell people can say boxing is a martial art. have u heard anyone calling a boxer a martial artist?


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## Box Out 2003

well if boxing is not a martial art then why do you find many armys around the world training and accepting the sport as part of their training and activly encouraging it. boxing is a martial art just because the sport versions do not include other combat uses dont think that boxers dont know how to fight dirty. i was talking with my friend the other day and he was telling me that he saw in a martial arts magazine a video about how to fight dirty using boxing tehniques. there is the sport and the fighting aspect just that even in our sport we are tougher than most martial arts guys. but i have to say that boxing is dangerous because you cant treat your body like that and train that way forever. those martial arts guys who fight hard but learn to train so they dont burn out there body have something there.


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## arnisador

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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