# Open vs. Closed Hand



## MJS (Jan 10, 2006)

When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice? For me, I prefer an open hand strike such as a palm heel, a hammerfist or an elbow over hitting with my closed fist. IMO, you're going to run less of a chance of getting a hand injury with an open handed strike. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.

Thoughts?


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## Drac (Jan 10, 2006)

I couldn't agree more..The old knuckles don't heal as fast as they use to for reason unknown..LOL


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## Nanalo74 (Jan 10, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> I couldn't agree more..The old knuckles don't heal as fast as they use to for reason unknown..LOL


 
My thoughts exactly!

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com


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## green meanie (Jan 10, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> I couldn't agree more..The old knuckles don't heal as fast as they use to for reason unknown..LOL


 
Same here. But it depends on target too. I don't mind putting the knuckles to the body. I'm strictly palm heel and elbows when it come to hitting someone in the head though.


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## Blindside (Jan 10, 2006)

I've broken my hand (through pads) punching to the head, so I try to train open hand to the head.  I tried to use hammerfists, but I found that making a fist put me back in the habit of punching, so I've been moving away from that.

Makes for a weird dichotomy in training though, its hard to spar without using the fist (providing padding for your opponent as well) but training other applications with the open hand.  

Lamont


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## arnisador (Jan 10, 2006)

I prefer open hand but am not unwilling to use a punch.


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## jdinca (Jan 10, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Same here. But it depends on target too. I don't mind putting the knuckles to the body. I'm strictly palm heel and elbows when it come to hitting someone in the head though.



I agree. Sometimes a closed fist is called for. I like the heel hand, no knuckles to shred and the wrist is taken out of the equation too.


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## Navarre (Jan 10, 2006)

I'll use whatever will get me in.  I like the haito (ridge hand strike) to the jawline and behind the ear.  An empi (elbow strike) thrown in an overhand cutting motion to the temple or nose works nicely too.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice?



Preferably a tire iron.


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## clfsean (Jan 10, 2006)

Just depends on what I'm trying to get done & how the hand goes out.


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## Grenadier (Jan 10, 2006)

There is an old adage for hand techniques:

"Hard on soft, soft on hard." 

While it's not entirely valid, it does serve as a fair guideline.  I prefer to keep the knuckles on soft targets, such as the abdomen, etc.  Hammer fist, palm heel, etc., are for the hard targets (top of head, forehead, etc).


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## Sapper6 (Jan 10, 2006)

i think it all depends of the target you wish to strike. i too have heard the "adage" of using hard weapons to soft target and vice versa. but that gets one to think, what would be classifed as a hard weapon or a soft weapon?

i personally prefer the ridgehand.  it can be used in a multitude of directions and for many purposes.  is it a soft or hard weapon?  i've used it on both kinds of targets.  cheekbones, jaw, side of the neck, the beans, the radials in the forearm, etc.

the old "soft-hard, hard-soft" adage _can_ be true, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.


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## Connovar (Jan 10, 2006)

Palm heel strikes to the face and jaw. Also elbows. Lower body: knees and elbows. I box  and do bjj for fun but I dont usually walk around the street wearing my MMA gloves so its open hands for me!


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## arnisador (Jan 10, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i too have heard the "adage" of using hard weapons to soft target and vice versa.


 
Yet, with the stick, we like to strike bony targets! A stick to the kneecap hurts a lot more than one to the thigh. For open-hand I think hard-to-soft, soft-to-hard is good general advice, but I agree that it isn't as crisp a distinction as that.


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## Kenpodoc (Jan 10, 2006)

I like the Sean Kelley statement "Slap the Head, Punch the Body and Kick the legs" 

Jeff


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 10, 2006)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Preferably a tire iron.


:uhyeah: 



> Oringinally posted by *MJS*
> When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice?


I prefer an open hand. 

Took this one from the thread in the TKD forum, didn't 'ya.


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## TheBattousai (Jan 10, 2006)

I like defending with an open hand just in case I need to grapple with someone. It takes precious moments away having to unclinche your fist and then grab or whatever. But if needed, it good to train to close the hand into a fist as you strike, doing so generates alot of power, but it takes alot of practice.


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## Henderson (Jan 10, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> There is an old adage for hand techniques:
> 
> "Hard on soft, soft on hard."
> 
> While it's not entirely valid, it does serve as a fair guideline.


When is it not valid?

&



			
				sapper6 said:
			
		

> the old "soft-hard, hard-soft" adage _can_ be true, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.


 An instance of it not being true would be?...

As a Goju-ryu guy, these principles are at the core.  I am interested in hearing other perspectives, but examples would be most helpful.

Respects,

Frank


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## MJS (Jan 10, 2006)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Took this one from the thread in the TKD forum, didn't 'ya.


 
Actually, I was thinking of topics while I was at work the other night.  I didn't realize that there was a similar thread in TKD.:ultracool 

Mike


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## MJS (Jan 10, 2006)

I'm sure that hand conditioning would come into play with some of the 'harder' styles, but for those that do not do it, an open hand strike may be the way to go.

Mike


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## KenpoTex (Jan 11, 2006)

I'm not a big fan of closed fist striking with the exception that I use closed fists to the body, usually in the form of "shovel-hook" type punches.  For the head and face I prefer palm-heels, elbows.  I also use the handsword/knifehand and the hammerfist for many targets.

After breaking the middle knuckle on my right hand, I decided that there was a lot of merit to the "hard on soft, soft on hard" adage. 



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> ...what would be classifed as a hard weapon or a soft weapon?
> 
> i personally prefer the ridgehand. it can be used in a multitude of directions and for many purposes. is it a soft or hard weapon? i've used it on both kinds of targets. cheekbones, jaw, side of the neck, the beans, the radials in the forearm, etc.
> 
> the old "soft-hard, hard-soft" adage _can_ be true, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.


I agree. I wouldn't necessarily classify a ridgehand or a knifehand, or a palm heel as "soft" (it ain't soft when you get hit with it...). I don't think the point of this saying is to clasify anything but a closed fist as a "soft weapon," But to say, "if we're hitting a hard target, lets use a weapon whose structrure/integrity is least likely to be adversely affected (broken) by coming into contact with a hard target."


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## rziriak (Jan 11, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> There is an old adage for hand techniques:
> 
> "Hard on soft, soft on hard."
> 
> While it's not entirely valid, it does serve as a fair guideline. I prefer to keep the knuckles on soft targets, such as the abdomen, etc. Hammer fist, palm heel, etc., are for the hard targets (top of head, forehead, etc).



Now THIS I will keep in mind!!  Thanks


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 11, 2006)

For some reaso, maye instinctual maybe just a natural result I've how I've been trained, but I'm usuallythinking along the lines of various weapon/target combinations.

Elbow->Face
Back Elbow->Temple
Palm Heel->Face
Knife Hand->Throat/Neck
Ridge Hand->Throat/Neck
Back Hand->Face
Back Hand->Temple
Spear Hand->Throat
Flat Fist->Throat
Elbow/Back Elbow-.Top/Back of Head

Fist->Solar-Plexus/Stomach
Elbow->Solar Plexus
---

I don't know if there is a principle in all that, mostly it just seems to me like I really don't like the idea of kunckles into the face and hard parts of the head


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## richardgrannon (Jan 11, 2006)

*one of the benefits of striking with an open hand, apart from protecting the knuckles is it leads in to a wide range of nasty clawing techniques i find! *


*clawing video clips*

*cheers*

*richie*

*www.streetfightek.com *


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## mc811 (Jan 11, 2006)

I, find that I use both , but for the most part tend to use closed hand with my right and open hand with the left but still throw ridge hands and cross knife with the the right also............:asian: 



Mitch.......


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## arnisador (Jan 12, 2006)

richardgrannon said:
			
		

> *one of the benefits of striking with an open hand, apart from protecting the knuckles is it leads in to a wide range of nasty clawing techniques i find!*


 
I do like that it lets me get hold of the person more easily, and I certainly make use of that fact.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 12, 2006)

I use both most of the time. 
 I enjoy the closed hand for certian blocks  when i really want to impart some pain  but like the soft/open when i just want to deflect a movement.  
I use the open hand for clawing, palm heel strikes, finger jabs to soft areas, but like to hit ribs, muscles cavities, large muscle groups with a close hand


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## SAVAGE (Jan 12, 2006)

Open hand = soft
Fist= hard

Soft strike to hard target...hard strike to soft target!

*bows respectfully*


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## Sapper6 (Jan 12, 2006)

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> Open hand = soft
> Fist= hard
> 
> Soft strike to hard target...hard strike to soft target!
> ...


 
we've discussed that.  

yeah, you _can_ use that, but not necessarily all the time.


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## Jagermeister (Jan 12, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yet, with the stick, we like to strike bony targets! A stick to the kneecap hurts a lot more than one to the thigh.



I think the question here isn't concerning maximizing damage, rather it's a question of self-preservation.  Remember, the stick doesn't feel pain and it certainly doesn't take weeks or months to recover from injury!


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## SAVAGE (Jan 12, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> we've discussed that.
> 
> yeah, you _can_ use that, but not necessarily all the time.


 
True but it is a good general rule!

*bows respectfully*


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## Cujo (Jan 12, 2006)

I guess I'm one of the odd ones because I use mostly closed hand and elbow techniques. That is not to say that I don't use open hand techniques, just not as often. Part of the reason is that I have injured both of my wrists and they no longer bend backwards so a palm heel strike just ain't gonna happen.

Pax
Cujo


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 13, 2006)

OK, silly question.  I keep seeing first about the soft versus hard matchups, and then the invariable reply that it doesn't always *have* to be like that.  Unless I missed something, what I haven't seen is good examples of where that general principle either should or would be set aside.

In boxing and other sport competitions, you wear padded gloves (of varying sizes) and punching to the face, especially, and other parts of the head is done pretty generally.  However, take off the gloves and such strikes are seemingly a bit problematic.  Puching to the skull obviously goes against the hard/soft principle.  Punching bare-nuckle to the face has some other issues.

I guess I'm curious of what would be good examples where hard/hard or soft/soft would make sense.  I suppose there's always the matter of expedience where the only weapon and target you have available and you do what you need, but what about intentional decisions to strike a given target with a given weapon that would be against the hard/soft approach?


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## MJS (Jan 20, 2006)

Just got the Mar. '06 issue of Black Belt magazine.  There is an article by Jim Wagner regarding this very topic.  I'm not going to post the entire article, but I will address certain points he made.  

1:  he states that its nonsense to think that a hand will be broke if a closed fist is used, stating that fingers can be hyperextended.  

Well, if they're curled back, the way they should be, that won't happen.  

2: When he hits someone, the last thing he is thinking about is the injury inflicted on his opponent.  So what if I sprain my hand, I can still fight with those injuries.

Well, depending on how bad the injury is, that will determine if you can still use it or not.  Coincidentally, I was doing focus mit drills last night, threw a hook, and hurt my wrist.  Now, that was my own fault, for not having my hand in the proper position, but one the less, it hurt like hell!!!  I still continued with the drills...stuipd I know...but changed to an open hand palm strike in place of the hook.  I still got some damn good power from it too!!

3: He then talked about stopping power.  You're going to get more power with a closed fist.  The power will dissipate, etc etc.  

While I may not get that KO with that 1 shot 1 kill mentality, that is not what I'm looking for.  When it comes to SD, I don't want to gamble with thinking like that.  Can it happen? Sure, but I'm not going to take my chances.  If I can hit the jaw with a closed fist, I can move a bit higher and target the ear with the open palm.  

Mike


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2006)

Didn't Mike Tyson break bones in his hand hitting a parking lot attendant in the head some years back?

I'll look for the article.


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## jdinca (Jan 20, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> 3: He then talked about stopping power. You're going to get more power with a closed fist. The power will dissipate, etc etc.



Interesting. A heel hand is open palm and it takes the wrist out of the equation. To my mind, that would put it at the same level as a closed fist, if not more powerful.


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## Grenadier (Jan 20, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Didn't Mike Tyson break bones in his hand hitting a parking lot attendant in the head some years back?
> 
> I'll look for the article.


 

Entirely possible.  

All it takes is the hitting of some protruded bone structure in the head, to hit one of the carpals / metacarpals in your hand (or whatever the bones above the striking knuckles are).  Your bones aren't well-reinforced there, and if you put a good bit of power behind that punch, and if those bones land perpendicular to the protruding bones, then it's all-too-easy to break your own hand.


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## rutherford (Jan 20, 2006)

Eh, I need more training.

I tell myself over and over again to not hit somebody in the face with my fist.  But, you know what?  I like it.

And I have broken bones in my hand before, and my right thumb has been a mess of arthritis pain all week.

But it's so much fun.


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## MJS (Jan 20, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Didn't Mike Tyson break bones in his hand hitting a parking lot attendant in the head some years back?
> 
> I'll look for the article.


 
I recall hearing that too.  The wrapping and taping that they (boxers) do of course is going to give some added support, but obviously outside of the ring, nobody walks around with taped up hands.  This is why I'm a bit more bias towards open hand strikes.

Mike


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 20, 2006)

i dont know if i am a big fan of the whole soft target/hard weapon, hard target/soft weapon approach.
i dont know if a palm heel to the head is as effective as an elbow to the head, or if a slap to someones shin as a block is going to be as effective as smashing their shin with an elbow or your own shin.
doesnt anyone condition their weapons anymore?


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## jdinca (Jan 20, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i dont know if i am a big fan of the whole soft target/hard weapon, hard target/soft weapon approach.
> i dont know if a palm heel to the head is as effective as an elbow to the head, or if a slap to someones shin as a block is going to be as effective as smashing their shin with an elbow or your own shin.
> doesnt anyone condition their weapons anymore?



But what about my babysoft skin? 

I would much prefer to use an elbow to a palm strike, or a fist. It really depends on the application, I guess.

As for a soft hand block to the shin as opposed to an elbow, again it depends on the application but I think I would rather do the soft hand block on the shin, as I was focusing on closing to use a hand or elbow strike to the head.


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## beau_safken (Jan 20, 2006)

Hmmm To say open or closed is kinda limiting...  I just equat all my skills to various tools.  Some work better in some cases and its always better to just go with the flow.  I much prefer to lead opponents into my elbows or go in for arm bar's and the like.  Its much more fun and doesnt injure my body in the process.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 20, 2006)

a hit to the temple  be it a palm heel, knife edge, or closed fist can still knock someone out.  
Bones in your hand can be broken no matter which of the above techniques above you use when hitting different areas of the body


Now as far as stopping someone I think I have stoped a few opponents with all of the above


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## bdparsons (Jan 21, 2006)

There comes a certain point where comparing open and closed hand strikes is a bit of a moot point.. With proper training an individual can generate just as much power and cause just as much damage with open vs. closed hand or vice versa.

Think on this... unbiased witnesses to a a self defense situation remember mostly gross details. You have a much better chance of giving the impression that your actions are purely self defense if your hands remain open. This holds true even when that lines blurs as to what is defense and what is offense.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## MJS (Jan 24, 2006)

bdparsons said:
			
		

> There comes a certain point where comparing open and closed hand strikes is a bit of a moot point.. With proper training an individual can generate just as much power and cause just as much damage with open vs. closed hand or vice versa.


 
True, power can be generated using either strike.  I'm looking at what is going to minimize injury to the hand.



> Think on this... unbiased witnesses to a a self defense situation remember mostly gross details. You have a much better chance of giving the impression that your actions are purely self defense if your hands remain open. This holds true even when that lines blurs as to what is defense and what is offense.
> 
> Respects,
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute


 
Agreed.  Open hands is certainly going to look less threatening on the defenders part in the bystanders eyes.

Mike


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## Shaolinwind (Jan 24, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice? For me, I prefer an open hand strike such as a palm heel, a hammerfist or an elbow over hitting with my closed fist. IMO, you're going to run less of a chance of getting a hand injury with an open handed strike. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
Something makes me love the willow leaf palm.. It's Like a whipping rather than a bludgeoning, I dig that.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 9, 2006)

I like the open hand strikes because they can be speacialized by fitting into certain area that get you better results, than trying to beat someone into submission (just watch out for your palm heel ending up with teeth in it---LOL!)


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## CuongNhuka (Mar 13, 2006)

if you look at how the hand and wrist are constructed you'll notice you have to get alot of bones into alignment, or you risk breaking your hand from a punch. it's anatomy. but do the same with a palm strike. your using the same muscles, in the same way. but if you use two palm strikes, you run the risk of inducing massive pain (or death) to your opponent. there is a basic Ving Tseun drill that is meant to develop flow, and condition some of your arms. there are many uses and applications. but if you look at one of the sides closely you'll notice that part of the application is a neck break. that persons hands are open. 
so for me, i keep them closed so i don't risk damageing my opponent to much. acctuly, i kick if i think your a minor threat. or use some aikido-esc technigues to restrain you. then punch if your more of a threat. and a major threat i use palm strikes and grappling. the grappling that is taught in Cuong Nhu is based in Aikido & Judo. but there is some that is modified Jui Jitsu (i know that Aikido & Judo are drawn from one form of Ju Jitsu or other, but i mean some of the scarier stuff). and i also know some other, random, i'm not sure were it's from stuff. so image what me grappling might entale.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John


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## samurai69 (Mar 14, 2006)

*To Punch or Not to Punch, That is the Question!
By George Demetriou

*It's not uncommon. Police officer attempts to arrest suspect, suspect violently resists, officer delivers punch to suspect's head. Officer injures hand. Many officers have broken their hands, and most will say injuries are a reality of the job. Maybe, but what if there was an alternative to punching that was safer and more effective?

Actually there is. The palm strike. It's the heel of the palm you make contact with, but it's referred to as a palm strike. To execute a palm strike, its important to have the right hand position. The hand is pulled back as far as possible, locking the wrist and the fingers should be allowed to curl slightly forward. The palm and finger tips should face the target. Contact is made with the very bottom of the palm just before the wrist.

*Officer Safety - Palm Strike vs. Fisted Strikes*

When knuckles meet skull during a confrontation, the skull will always win. I don't think anyone will argue that former heavyweight Champ Mike Tyson is an accomplished puncher. When Mr. Tyson punched former Heavyweight contender Mitch Green on the head, Tyson's hand broke. Neither man wore gloves for the bout. The fight took place on a Harlem street corner. You can see why boxers pay someone good money to tape their hands.

My question to those in law enforcement is: If men who get paid lots of money to punch people, who train constantly to develop their punches, break their hands in street fights what makes you think it won't happen to you?

Strong hand injuries are the number one arrest-related injury in police work. This will continue as long as defensive tactics are strongly influenced by martial arts (this includes boxing) that emphasize fisted strikes.

"The most common injury occurs when you strike with the last two knuckles. The 5th metacarpal breaks (between the knuckles of the middle finger and pinkie), commonly referred to as a boxer's fracture," states James Prattas, MD of Metropolitan Hospital in NYC. Dr. Prattas, also a martial artist stated, "I can't think of any reason to strike with a fist over using a palm strike."

"A fracture will take 6-8 weeks to heal, while a sprain (tear in ligament) could take up to 6 months to heal. Rehabilitation could take 3-4 months, according to Faye Grant, a Registered Occupational Therapist, from the Hand Therapy Center, in Floral Park, NY.

Police officers who seriously injured their hands during a violent confrontation were asked if they thought they could get a solid grip on their firearms after the injury. The answer was sometimes, "I don't know," but most often just, "No."

"Grip strength comes from the ulnar side (pinky side) of the hand. A boxer's fracture would significantly affect your grip. Try to hold anything with a handle without using your fourth finger," says Stuart Kandel, Orthopedic Surgeon from Bay Shore, NY. "It would be much easier to disarm an officer who received this fracture."

The Medical Doctors, Physical Therapists and Occupational Therapists the author interviewed all agreed that with the palm strike done correctly the chances of injuring the hand are slim. "The position of Maximum Boney stability in the hand is the close-pack position which is full extension of the hand. Full extension of the hand is the palm strike position," according to Bill Partridge, Physical Therapist of Nassau/Suffolk Physical Therapy in Syosset, NY.

Taking shooting and/or firearm retention into consideration, the palm strike seems to be the logical choice of strikes.

Another serious health related problem we have to consider is cutting the knuckles on the perpetrator's teeth. Punches are usually directed to the head area including the face. The mouth is something you definitely want to avoid. However the teeth may be struck inadvertently. "Everyone you encounter violently has AIDS, until proven otherwise, humans have the most infectious mouths, once you break skin you are introducing all those germs to your body", says Dr. Prattas. "The heel of the palm making impact with the mouth distributes contact area equally making it difficult to break skin if the teeth are struck. With a punch, one knuckle may hit the teeth, breaking skin easily."

"The skin on the dorsal side (top of the hand) is easily cut because it is very thin. The opposite is true of the skin on the palm," says O.T.R. Faye Grant.

According to Dr. Kandel, "When you open your hand from a fist tendons pull back. If the knuckles are cut when a full taut fist strikes teeth the act of opening the hand pulls bacteria in. Serious infection can set in 24-48 hours later".

Germs do not fester as easily in the fleshy palm of the hand as they do in the knuckles. There have been cases where cuts caused by human teeth on knuckles resulted in the hand being surgically removed to stop the spread of Gangrene.

*Effectiveness of Palm Strikes*

The palm strike is safe for the officer to use, but it's also quite effective. A palm strike done on a slightly upward angle has a tremendous amount of leverage. One need only to strike a heavy bag suspended from a stand or ceiling to see this. Compare the reactions of the bag when you punch or palm strike. There's a more violent jump in the bag when you palm strike.

Punches have a primary effect on the target struck. A punch to the head will usually affect the area the knuckles made contact with. Palm strikes have a secondary effect. A palm strike to the head won't cause much damage to the contact point, but will have an effect on the neck and usually jars the body. A palm strike done under the chin will often produce a one shot knock-out due to the whip lash effect. A palm strike anywhere to the head area will almost always affect balance, because the strike will take the assailant's ears out of line with his hips. This opens up other parts of the body for combinations or a takedown. The palm strike can be used effectively to the head, body, hip socket and knees. Punches are best used against muscular parts of the body to avoid injury to the puncher. Palm strikes are good to grab off of and make it easier to strike someone with an object in your hand. You never know when you'll get caught having to strike while you are holding your radio and firearm.

Another nice bonus of palm strikes is they don't seem as violent as clenching your fist and striking someone. Having your hands open will make the strike to appear a push to the untrained eye. Palm strikes will go over better than punches on the evening news.

*The Fist Reflex*

An involuntary discharge experiment conducted by International Defensive Tactics and Research Foundation (I.D.T.) between December 1991 and September 1993 showed that being trained to use your fists may lead to having an involuntary discharge.

Phil Messina, President of Modern Warrior® Defensive Tactics Institute states, "The fist reflex is a response which occurs when an individual psychologically associates making a fist with high stress confrontational situations".

All experiment participants were police officers, male and female with an average time in service of three and one half years. No Modern Warrior® students were permitted to participate. One group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with their fists, the second group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with open hands and the third group just did the final stress simulation. The final simulation consisted of having an officer enter a smoke filled room, where the smoke has an odor and taste, strobe lights are on, the terrain is obstructed and wind is created by the use of high speed fans. All senses are overloaded. Suddenly gunshots go off (on tape) and a figure comes running at the officer waving hands and screaming. The figure runs into the officer unless the officer moves away. This scenarios purpose is to stress out the officer enough to cause an involuntary discharge of the officer's firearm.

Each group had 50 participants. From the fist group there were 18 involuntary discharges. Nine of those officers had their finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the non-fist group there were 3 involuntary discharges, with 2 finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the control group 1 finger off trigger prior to discharge.

"Post Experiment interviews strongly indicated that a high percentage of participants who had involuntary discharges had studied martial arts emphasizing fisted strikes. Boxers were foremost in this category," said Messina.

Based partially on these experiments Modern Warrior® DT Institute has taken all fisted strikes out of their Police Defensive Tactics curriculum and replaced them with palm strikes and other open handed alternatives when counter striking becomes necessary.

*Conclusion*

Using fisted strikes as the primary hand technique of police defensive tactics training is a perfect example of how sport martial arts influence police training. Many DT Instructors have a boxing or karate background, they teach what they like to do. Defensive tactics has to be based on what law enforcement officers will encounter in the field, not what an instructor encountered in the ring. The primary strike should make sense for police work. The primary hand technique for law enforcement should be the palm strike. - GD

--------------------

*Involuntary Discharge Experiment*

Started December 1991, Ended September 1993

*Total Participants - 168*

*Disqualified - 18*

Reasons for disqualification:

1) Firearm remained in holster - 11

2) Hand injuries - 5

3) Equipment failure - 2

*Interesting Notes:*

1. All eleven subjects who did not draw weapons were N.Y.P.D.

2. All five injuries which caused disqualifications were from the fist group.

*Participant Descriptions:*

1. Fist group (struck heavy bags with fists for 30 min.)

2. Non-fist group (struck heavy bags with open hands for 30 min.)

3. Control group (just did final stress simulation.)

*Final Simulation:*

Officer entered an enclosed area to investigate possible man with a gun. As officer enters he finds himself (or herself) in a smoke filled room containing foul smell, pungent taste, strobe lights, high density fans and obstructed floor surface. All senses (sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste) are overloaded. Suddenly gunshots go off and a figure comes running at officer waving hands in air and screaming loudly. Figure runs right into officer if officer cannot evade.

The purpose of this scenario is to create a high stress situation which is likely to cause an involuntary discharge of the officers firearm.

*Group Makeup: *
(Excluding disqualifications)

1. Fist group - 50 (47 males, 3 females)

2. Non-fist group - 50 (47 males, 3 females)

3. Control group - 50 (46 males, 4 females)

-

Average age - 29 years old

Range - 21 to 53 years of age

Average time in service - 3 and one-half years

Range - 1 to 24 years

Time on heavy bags - 30 minutes - in two minute rounds with two minutes on, two minutes off

Average number of strikes - 1500

Range - 800 - 3000

(No Modern Warrior students were permitted to participate.)

*Results:*

From fist group: (50 subjects)

Involuntary discharges - 18 (17 males and 1 female)

Finger off trigger prior to discharge - 9

From non fist group: (50 subjects)

Involuntary discharges - 3 (all males)

Finger off trigger prior to discharge - 2

From control group: (50 subjects)

Involuntary discharges - 4 (all males)

Finger off trigger prior to discharge - 1

*Interesting Notes:*

Of the 25 participants who had involuntary discharges almost half (12) had their finger off the trigger just prior to the discharge. This indicates that we cannot assume that an officer had his or her finger on the trigger just because his or her firearm discharged.

*Hypothesis: *

It appears that under high stress situations where a firearm is likely to be present, involuntary discharges may occur due to a phenomenon we now refer to as the fist reflex. The fist reflex is a response which occurs when an individual psychologically associates making a fist with high stress confrontational situations.

Although the fist reflex may be a natural instinct at birth (babies make fists when they cry) it appears in later years this becomes a conditioned response which may be reinforced or possibly minimized through training in later years. Post-experiment interviews strongly indicated that a high percentage of participants who had involuntary discharges had studied martial arts systems which emphasized making a fist while under stress. Boxers were foremost in this category.

Although it appeared that having ones finger off the trigger had little affect on the fist reflex under these test conditions, the authors of this test still highly recommend that officers keep their fingers off their triggers for several other strategic reasons. Direct nerve trauma (getting hit on the arm) and attempted disarmings are just two of them. However as previously stated, these test results strongly suggest that we cannot automatically assume that an officer was walking around with his or her finger on the trigger on the sole basis that there was an involuntary discharge.

*Recommendations: *

It is recommended that law enforcement agencies conduct further experiments under high stress simulations to further study the fist reflex phenomenon. 

It is further suggested that firearm discipline training must go further than just having range officers tell officers just keep your finger off the trigger.

It is also essential that agencies consider the fist reflex when deciding whether or not to indemnify an officer involved in an involuntary discharge litigation.

Based partially on these experiments Modern Warrior Defensive Tactics Institute has taken all fisted strikes out of their police defensive tactics curriculum and replaced them with palm strikes and other open handed alternatives when counter striking becomes necessary. Officers interviewed so far state that their confidence level is much higher. They have also found the actual street results of this new curriculum have proven highly effective, while hand injuries to officers have dramatically decreased. In 1995 a new study on involuntary discharges will be conducted using participants who have studied under this format. 

In the meantime, it is recommended that law enforcement agencies reconsider use of fisted strikes in their defensive tactics curriculum, but not discontinue them without viable alternatives.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 14, 2006)

thanks for posting that article...very interesting.


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## WingChun Lawyer (Mar 15, 2006)

Just some thoughts...but I heard that, when you actually hurt your hand while punching someone with a fist (as opposed to an open palm), it is entirely possible that the injury will not prevent you from fighting.

In fact, one of my gym colleagues, who is a bouncer, once appeared with a cast on his arm. He told me he had damaged his hand while striking someone´s face bareknucle (at work), but it only started to hurt one week later! It certainly didn´t stop him from beating the hell out of the other guy.

The point is, in a self defense situation, can we rely on sych a "clean" wound to the hand, or is there the possibility that my hand injury will put me instantly out of combat? In a real encounter, I would be more than willing to risk damaging my hand if that means I´ll be able to give more punishment to my adversary - trading an injury for greater damage.

Anyone cares to comment on this?


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## kickcatcher (Mar 15, 2006)

I once damaged (broke/fractured? not sure - never had it properly diagnosed) the small bones in BOTH of my insteps during a sparring match* so much that I could hardly walk for a week or two - and at the time I hardly noticed it. Adrenaline etc is a wonderful thing. Same applies for fists I think. Certainly know several people who have broken their hand hitting someone but only realised later. In fact, see the Gordeau fights from UFC1 - he broke his hand and had another guy's tooth embedded in one of his feet, but he kept on fighting, u.ltimately loosing in the final. 

*I was doing low kicks badly, he was able to meet them with his knee consistantly.... but I kept trying it like the fool I am....


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## Brother John (Mar 15, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice?
> 
> I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.


 
I'm with you in that, more often than not, I'd rather strike with the many "open" hand techniques rather than punching with the knuckles. BUT: I wouldn't claim one over the other as a "Tool of choice", because a tool is designed to fit the work needing done....and sometimes the "punch" or closed fist strike works better. It often depends on the target. Like you said, a closed fist isn't essentially "a bad idea", but it's not as universally appropriate as many martial artists are made to believe. That's why you end up with so many broken fingers/hand-bones and wrists. Wrong tool for the wrong job many times. Sometimes, however.....it's just what the doctor ordered.

Your Brother
John


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## Hand Sword (Mar 24, 2006)

Agreed! Use the right tool that's needed at the right time. be flexible like bamboo!


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## SFC JeffJ (Mar 24, 2006)

I think it was one of the WW II hand to hand guys, like Fairbairin or Applegate that said don't use a fist above the jawline.  Good advice then and now.  Personally, I like my "high block" to the jaw.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 30, 2006)

Yep! knuckles versus skull bone, bad combo.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 2, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> In a real encounter, I would be more than willing to risk damaging my hand if that means I´ll be able to give more punishment to my adversary - trading an injury for greater damage.
> 
> Anyone cares to comment on this?


 
Well the trade off for using a fist in place of a heal palm, is a significant increase in the likelihood and severity of damage to yourself in exchange for a marginal increase in damage to your assailant.


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## Brother John (Apr 2, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Just some thoughts...but I heard that, when you actually hurt your hand while punching someone with a fist (as opposed to an open palm), it is entirely possible that the injury will not prevent you from fighting.
> The point is, in a self defense situation, can we rely on sych a "clean" wound to the hand, or is there the possibility that my hand injury will put me instantly out of combat? In a real encounter, I would be more than willing to risk damaging my hand if that means I´ll be able to give more punishment to my adversary - trading an injury for greater damage.
> Anyone cares to comment on this?


 
I'd say that it's unadviseable under Any circumstances to "Rely on" a wound not being "clean" or not. The fact is, there's NO way to know until it happens....and if you're wrong, you could be Dead wrong.
Instead, why risk it??? Develop your open hand strikes to such a pitch that you don't need to worry as much about injuring yourself w/your own actions. The open hand strikes, if done correctly and to optimal targets... can be DEVASTATING. 

I think this is a VERY good thread and hope that many instructors will take it to heart and pass the information along.
I'm just afraid that because it flies in the face of MUCH traditional instruction....it may be ignored.
hope I'm wrong in that.

Your Brother
John


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 5, 2006)

Ned Beaumont, who wrote "Championship Street Fighting: Boxing as a Martial Art", advocates that those trained in boxing skills, learn to use the same techniques, cross, hook, etc. using the Heal of the Hand. There is no reason why a powerful right cross can't be thrown using the palm as weapon - the only thing that changes is the range - you lose a few inches. Personally, I think someone could develop a significant CQ ability utilizing heel of the hand and elbow techniques and forgetting closed-hand punches - except, perhaps, the quick jab as distractor.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 5, 2006)

I agree. The Jab -- VERY USEFUL. In CQ open hands, elbows, knees and headbutt, are the way to go.


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 5, 2006)

agreed.  if you're going to use a closed fist, aim for a soft target.  even then, there are better tools for the job.

gosh darn that john wayne and his looping haymakers.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 5, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Ned Beaumont, who wrote "Championship Street Fighting: Boxing as a Martial Art", advocates that those trained in boxing skills, learn to use the same techniques, cross, hook, etc. using the Heal of the Hand. There is no reason why a powerful right cross can't be thrown using the palm as weapon - the only thing that changes is the range - you lose a few inches. Personally, I think someone could develop a significant CQ ability utilizing heel of the hand and elbow techniques and forgetting closed-hand punches


My last fight in the ring was in 94. I have been doing the above since then. In the four street fights that I have had since 94 it has worked splendidly for me.





> - except, perhaps, the quick jab as distractor.


I dont even make this exception.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 6, 2006)

Good choice!


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## BlackSheep (Apr 6, 2006)

Thanks HS

Prior to 94 I had broken my fist twice. After changing from fist to palm, I sprained my wrist once. I had just begun to retrain myself to use the palm when I got into this fight. The sprain was due to me trying to make a fist and palm strike at the same time. But once I had completed my retraining I had no more problems.

I do see a potential to break or sprain a finger, but that&#8217;s no big deal in a fight.


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## searcher (Apr 6, 2006)

Palm or other soft weapon on hard targets.   Fist or hard weapon on soft targets.   That is from to many hand injuries mixed with the stubborn desire to not give up closed hand techniques.


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## thescottishdude (Apr 7, 2006)

with me if I use my open hand then eventually I end up spraining or fracturing my fingers (not often I'm glad) a closed fist is just injury free for me.


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## lenatoi (Apr 7, 2006)

Sorry to just be a repeat here, but I've got to agree that no one type of strike is good for every occasion. Where are you striking? Which direction? What is your intent? Who are you striking? I like to use my fingers on my brother. (it hurts a different way. It's more like torture)


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## BlackSheep (Apr 7, 2006)

> with me if I use my open hand then eventually I end up spraining or fracturing my fingers (not often I'm glad) a closed fist is just injury free for me.


That&#8217;s because you don&#8217;t hit hard enough to break your hand. Some people do hit hard enough to break their hands and they are better off using their palms. 






> I like to use my fingers on my brother. (it hurts a different way. It's more like torture)


Playing with your brother is not the same thing as defending yourself from a couple of crackheads trying to rape you. 






> but I've got to agree that no one type of strike is good for every occasion. Where are you striking? Which direction? What is your intent? Who are you striking?


Being struck multiple times within a second or two doesn&#8217;t give you enough time to contemplate all the variables. Plus the adrenaline dump will push your heart rate to well over 100 beats per minute which will cause you to lose fine motor skills and cognitive functioning.


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## lenatoi (Apr 8, 2006)

I obviously don't beleive that playing with my brother is the  same thing as defending myself. I was answering the question of what strike I think is "best." By using the brother example, I was merely demonstraying that there is no "best" for every occasion.

In response to your other comment, I beleive that if you have the proper training(and enough of it) you *will* be able to choosebetween some strike or another. Likewise, what is the point of learning various strikes if you are only ever going to use one? If, no matter what, you will not be able to asses a situation, Why even *Pretend* to train in the martial arts?

I will admit that *fine* moter skills errode in intensely stressfull situations, but thaught processes do not. In adition, stressfull situations can be created in a training environment in order to hone ones skills in preperation. That dump of adrenalin you experience can serve to slow the situation down in your mind, making you better able to react in a given situation.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 9, 2006)

> I obviously don't beleive that playing with my brother is the same thing as defending myself. I was answering the question of what strike I think is "best." By using the brother example, I was merely demonstraying that there is no "best" for every occasion.


Then you used a poor example!





> I will admit that fine moter skills errode in intensely stressfull situations, but thaught processes do not.


&#8220;According to Grossman&#8217;s lecture, cognitive processing occurs in the forebrain.
This is where rational thought occurs and is what distinguishes us as human beings. 
When a critical incident reaches a certain point, the body says that there is no 
longer a need for rational thought. The body resorts to its primal instincts, which 
are controlled by the midbrain. The midbrain controls your decisions to fight or
flight when confronted with dangers posed by another species. 
Grossman (1995) suggests that these options expand to include posturing and 
submission when confronted with dangers posed by members of our own species.&#8221;

http://www.cji.net/CJI/CenterInfo/lemc/papers/Darin Clay.pdf







> In response to your other comment, I beleive that if you have the proper training(and enough of it) you will be able to choosebetween some strike or another. Likewise, what is the point of learning various strikes if you are only ever going to use one? If, no matter what, you will not be able to asses a situation, Why even Pretend to train in the martial arts?


Just what is it that you are proposing? To stop and think about all the possibilities and then decide on a technique, execute the technique and then stop and think again about your next move?


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## still learning (Apr 9, 2006)

Hello, That was a lot to read (above).  From what I can gather....hitting with the fist? ...may often lead to a broken hand.

Palm/elbow/ridge/slap too, type of strikes is safer to use! ....to the head/face. Most of us agree on this.....this is good.

Now we also know? ...punches with a fist DO WORK...and we seen this happen also without breaking our hands too.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The human being head/face comes in all shapes and sizes...most are uneven....hense the problems striking with the fist...some parts of the fist will hit bone, well other parts continune on feeling the softer parts.  (That is why we break the fist?  ...well one problem anyway. (hitting with an incorrect fist too)

Picture is worth a thousand words.....take a picture of someone face..put it on the bag....hit the face a couple of hundred times...train hard...when the time comes....hit the picture only...

Now if the face is flat? ..even..and in nice shape...GO FOR IT

Just my thoughts on this.........In life we will FACE many challenges...Aloha


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 9, 2006)

Depends on the target for me but my first choice is open hand and elbows.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 10, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice? For me, I prefer an open hand strike such as a palm heel, a hammerfist or an elbow over hitting with my closed fist. IMO, you're going to run less of a chance of getting a hand injury with an open handed strike. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.
> 
> Thoughts?



I prefer to use open hand techniques. It is a part of my self-defense before and after the situation. I can honestly say, I did not strike him with a fist officer/judge/ADA, I only reached out to stop/push him and my andrenaline and fear must have gotten to me more then I knew at the time. 

I teach to all newbies that the hammer fist is your chosen self-defense weapon until you feel much mroe comfortable with other strikes. The Hammer fist falls into a gross motor skill that people with little training can execute with little to no training.


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## Brandon Fisher (Apr 10, 2006)

Rich,
That makes alot of sense to me.


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## lenatoi (Apr 10, 2006)

First, sir, the question was "When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice?," not When the heat is on, what will you always use?. 
I did not use a poor example. I was showing a different setting where one might use a strike of some sort.

When I said,"In response to your other comment, I beleive that if you have the proper training(and enough of it) you will be able to choosebetween some strike or another. Likewise, what is the point of learning various strikes if you are only ever going to use one? If, no matter what, you will not be able to asses a situation, Why even Pretend to train in the martial arts?," I did not say "*stop*" to think about the situation. Don't try to twist my words for the sake of an argument. If you cannot choose your strike I would say you need more training. 
Again, stopping between strikes would not be neccesary either. Once you have chosen your first attack your physical memory will kick in.

Now I have a question for you. Do you think only ONE perfect strike should be taught because nothing else will be remembered anyway?


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## FearlessFreep (Apr 10, 2006)

I think of fighter pilots and racecar drivers and others who have to make instant decisions and precise reactions to dangerous situations.    The thing is, they practice those situations over and over so they are used to operating in that sphere so when it comes to making a decision, they are not in 'fight-or-flight' mode but are still in a place they are accustomed to where they can think rationally

I thought that was one of the points behind MA training.  Your practice over and over to be in those fighting situations so that a fighting situation develops, it's not a new type of stress but something you have trained for and practiced for and so you are still in the space of rational thought and not just 'fight or flight' survival mode.

As a musician, getting on stage is never quite the same as practicing before hand, but the more you practice before hand and the more relaxed and comfortable you are with the material, the more relaxed and ready you will be on stage.

The idea is to get yourself to the point where your mind does not go into 'panic survival not-thinking-just-reacting' mode as quickly because you are  in a situation that you are at least somewhat more accustomed to


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## BlackSheep (Apr 10, 2006)

> When I said,"In response to your other comment, I beleive that if you have the proper training(and enough of it) you will be able to choosebetween some strike or another. Likewise, what is the point of learning various strikes if you are only ever going to use one? If, no matter what, you will not be able to asses a situation, Why even Pretend to train in the martial arts?," I did not say "stop" to think about the situation. Don't try to twist my words for the sake of an argument. If you cannot choose your strike I would say you need more training.
> Again, stopping between strikes would not be neccesary either. Once you have chosen your first attack your physical memory will kick in.


This doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense to me. Really, I&#8217;m having a hard time understanding your position.

When I read someone&#8217;s post I try to get a metal image of how they fight. You sound like a teenage girl, who the closest she has been to a real fight is point sparring. If that&#8217;s true, then it would explain allot. 






> Now I have a question for you. Do you think only ONE perfect strike should be taught because nothing else will be remembered anyway?


"ONE perfect strike" LOL

I train using 9 different strikes. 5 are palm strikes, 3 are elbow and one kick.


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## lenatoi (Apr 11, 2006)

I can see that you are having a hard time understanding.
Thankyou for resorting to attacking me personally, and getting off subject. It shows quite a bit about you. Since you can obviously not participate in a coherent, give and take conversation,(an argument) then I submit.

You win.

Perhaps someone should put you into a small, female body. That way, you could experience the type of physical encounters I have had to deal with in the past.


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## BlackSheep (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey lenatoi, sorry for being so rough on you. I mean that.

Honestly I&#8217;m having trouble understanding your post. You can pick the strike but it&#8217;s also muscle memory? And I thought the thread was about the fist vs. open hand, not about different strikes. 

BTW what martial arts do you do?


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## cfr (Jul 5, 2006)

I skimmed through this, not read each post line by line before asking these questions, so please forgive me if they have already been asked. 

First, my knuckle is sore. I have a Wavemaster XXL which has a plastic core. I was workin' away the other day and am feeling that plastic core now. It's not broke, but it is an eye opener. Ironically, we have recently started to explore open hand techs for self preservation reasons. Questions:

1; Should the fingers be bent to redure the risk of hyper-extending the wrist?
2; Is is difficult to learn to generate the same amount of poweropen handed as closed?
3; Most people mentioned the palm strike in this thread. I see no reason why a palm stirke couldn't be used as a hook, do you?
4; Has anyone successfully used open hand techs for uppercuts? It seens awkward to me, but that could be due to my inexperience.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 5, 2006)

cfr said:
			
		

> I skimmed through this, not read each post line by line before asking these questions, so please forgive me if they have already been asked.
> 
> First, my knuckle is sore. I have a Wavemaster XXL which has a plastic core. I was workin' away the other day and am feeling that plastic core now. It's not broke, but it is an eye opener. Ironically, we have recently started to explore open hand techs for self preservation reasons. Questions:
> 
> ...




1)  I prefer to have the fingers back. The tendons along the inner arm not as tense when the fingers are have folded down. 

2) Not for me once power generation was learned with the body versus upper body strength.

3) The Hook for turns into the slap, and yes I like it and use it. 

4) I see no problem using the palm up to hit the chin (* Teach this *) and also to get the hands and fingers to have access to the opponents throat and face.


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## cfr (Jul 5, 2006)

I'm assuming slap means with the palm, not fingers, right?


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 5, 2006)

could be either i have seen 1 inch patio blocks broke by being slapped with the fingers


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2006)

cfr said:
			
		

> 1; Should the fingers be bent to redure the risk of hyper-extending the wrist?


 
I practice both ways.  IMO, its more of a personal preference as to what you feel more comfortable with.



> 2; Is is difficult to learn to generate the same amount of poweropen handed as closed?


 
No.  The power should be coming from the same place as it comes from with a closed hand..the hips and proper body mechanics.



> 3; Most people mentioned the palm strike in this thread. I see no reason why a palm stirke couldn't be used as a hook, do you?


 
Yes, it can be used in a hooking motion.  




> 4; Has anyone successfully used open hand techs for uppercuts? It seens awkward to me, but that could be due to my inexperience.


 
It is possible to use more of an upward angle and hit under the chin

Mike


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 5, 2006)

cfr said:
			
		

> I'm assuming slap means with the palm, not fingers, right?



Yes 

 Cup for the ears.

 Flat or normal for the side of the face with a little draw upon contact.

My preferences as there are multiple ways to attack this problem.


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## Explorer (Jul 5, 2006)

It really depends on what I'm hitting.  If it's soft tissue or ribs, I use a fist.  If it's the ear, an open hand.  If I'm being choked from behind I try to hit them with my teeth.


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## jacktnicol (Aug 5, 2006)

I do like to use fists. But practicaly for most the open hand is better because their is less risk of personal injury and open hand techniques are quicker because when you make a fist their is more muscular tension causing resitance.

Jack


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## lll000000lll (Aug 6, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice? For me, I prefer an open hand strike such as a palm heel, a hammerfist or an elbow over hitting with my closed fist. IMO, you're going to run less of a chance of getting a hand injury with an open handed strike. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
If a punch is delivered properly then there is really no chance of hurting it.

when punching, the index and middle Knuckles should be the contact point touching the Target.

most hand injuries happen when a sloppy punch is thrown, like a wide hook or even if it is tight but the fist is not in the correct position. 

for a hook the wrist, elbow and should should all be even at the same height as the shoulders. the fist position should look like you are holding a coffee mug, or glass of your favorite beer, so the back of your fist is facing the opponent and your fingers are facing your body.

and always remember to connect with your index and middle-finger knuckles and the rotation from the hips and shoulders should help maximize power to your fist.

for Jabs and crosses the form is different


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## lll000000lll (Aug 6, 2006)

jacktnicol said:
			
		

> I do like to use fists. But practicaly for most the open hand is better because their is less risk of personal injury and open hand techniques are quicker because when you make a fist their is more muscular tension causing resitance.
> 
> Jack


 
what i learned is that you dont actually make a fist untill the moment of impact followed by a snap back into guard.


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## karateka (Aug 6, 2006)

for some people open hand str&#305;kes work better but these need more pract&#305;ce and tra&#305;n&#305;ng

&#305;n shotokan a techn&#305;que called 'taesho' &#305;s very eff&#305;c&#305;ent but req&#305;res much pract&#305;ce. f&#305;nger str&#305;kes are also very good for pressure po&#305;nt work but aga&#305;n need much more pract&#305;ce.

w&#305;th tra&#305;n&#305;ng of open hand &#305;t can be as or even more effect&#305;ve than closed f&#305;st. &#305;t all depends on power and pres&#305;s&#305;on


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## Syn (Aug 6, 2006)

For me head, and back (I don't see why I'd do much striking there)=palm
front body=fist

Though in a fight those may mix up a bit in the confusion.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2006)

lll000000lll said:
			
		

> If a punch is delivered properly then there is really no chance of hurting it.


 
Unless of course, we end up hitting something harder. 



> when punching, the index and middle Knuckles should be the contact point touching the Target.
> 
> most hand injuries happen when a sloppy punch is thrown, like a wide hook or even if it is tight but the fist is not in the correct position.
> 
> ...


 
Good points.  Hand position is very important, although in the heat of the situation, there is a chance we could get sloppy.  If I recall correctly, didn't Mike Tyson break his hand outside of the ring? And he is a pro boxer.

Mike


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## lll000000lll (Aug 7, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Unless of course, we end up hitting something harder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
boxing ability aside, Mike Tyson is one crazy *******.
so it doesnt suprise me he broke his hand.

i heard that he attacked two autograph seekers in a hotel lobby.

Mike T fans- "hey your mike tyson...can we have an autograph???"

Mike Tyson- GRRRR me want EAR!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 7, 2006)

lll000000lll said:
			
		

> If a punch is delivered properly then there is really no chance of hurting it.


1. Even gloved and wrapped  boxers frequently break hands.  
2. In the heat of battle most of us have at least some failure of form even if we are perfect in practice.
3. I still need some proof of a statement like this but am unsure of how to set up the experiment since by the logic of the quoted statement any fracture must be caused by improper delivery.

I still like Sean Kelley's statement "Slap the Head, Punch the body and kick the legs."

Jeff


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## matt.m (Aug 7, 2006)

I am all about ridge hands.


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## Shotochem (Aug 8, 2006)

With proper conditioning there is a lot less risk while striking with a closed fist than without.  

I started as a Shotokan guy and we did mostly closed fist but the longer I have trained the more I use open hand strikes and blocks.  This was even before I switched to Kempo.

Perhaps the movement to open hand is just a natural progression in MA.


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## MJS (Aug 8, 2006)

Shotochem said:
			
		

> With proper conditioning there is a lot less risk while striking with a closed fist than without.


 
True, but how many people are really going to take the time necessary to put into this conditioning?  I'm sure their are some that do do it, but I'd wager that number isn't that large.

Mike


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## Brandon Fisher (Aug 9, 2006)

I do quite a bit of conditioning but not as much as some recomend.  I still what my hands intact.


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## Guardian (Nov 17, 2007)

MJS said:


> When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice? For me, I prefer an open hand strike such as a palm heel, a hammerfist or an elbow over hitting with my closed fist. IMO, you're going to run less of a chance of getting a hand injury with an open handed strike. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
Closed hand perferably being cautious of the exact point of impact (which portion of the hand to strike with).  I do as you mentioned know that possibility of an injury rising dramitically using a closed hand, but the power of the closed hand negates that portion for me personally.


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## exile (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm with the open-hand advocates here. Having broken my hand in a fist-strike to a thick stack of pine boards a while back, I may be cautious to excess, but if you put palm-heel and knifehand strikes together, that does most of the work that a punch should be doing, eh? And of what's left, a hammerfist strike is probably safer than a straight punch to the same target, though of course the body orientation would be different in the two cases. Bring in the proper use of forearms for frontal attacks to the throat (recorded in kata as `rising blocks') and elbow strikes to the face&#8212;all of 'em way less likely to lead to _you_ fracturing anything as a result&#8212;and the role of fist strikes definitely seems to recede to the margins...


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 17, 2007)

exile said:


> I'm with the open-hand advocates here. Having broken my hand in a fist-strike to a thick stack of pine boards a while back, I may be cautious to excess, but if you put palm-heel and knifehand strikes together, that does most of the work that a punch should be doing, eh? And of what's left, a hammerfist strike is probably safer than a straight punch to the same target, though of course the body orientation would be different in the two cases. Bring in the proper use of forearms for frontal attacks to the throat (recorded in kata as `rising blocks') and elbow strikes to the faceall of 'em way less likely to lead to _you_ fracturing anything as a resultand the role of fist strikes definitely seems to recede to the margins...



exile,

The hammer fist and palm heel are gross motor skills and are good simple strikes. I agree that in theory one could generate a perfect reverse punch with the proper hip and weight placement and knuckle placement and rotation of hand could generate the most amount of energy, but looking at stress and reacting to people in real time, keeping it simple for basics is good im my opinion. When I do punch most of the time I do not rotate the hand over, as I find it is not want I do in a real fight. 

I also like them as it is part of your legal self defense. If a witness sees your open hand it is a defensive move, push them away - Palm heel - or to defensivly strike them - hammer fist - and this goes a long way with the police and the DA's and possible even the judge, although I was lucky and did not have to deal with a judge for myself. 

If you say you purposefully striked the person with this type of strike and a witness can confirm it then your strike could be determined to be premeditated. Of course talk to a lawyer for actual legal advice. Before and after any altercation. 

Just  my thoughts.


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## cfr (Nov 17, 2007)

Guardian said:


> I do as you mentioned know that possibility of an injury rising dramitically using a closed hand, but the power of the closed hand negates that portion for me personally.


 

I was of that thinking as well, until I really spent some time developing my open hand striking. Now that I've gotten used too them, my power is far better open hand than closed. I think the reasoning is:

1) My arm is more relaxed.
2) I am less worried about injuries. 

This has just been my experience, but now that I stike open handed full time I doubt I will never go back to closed.


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## exile (Nov 17, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> exile,
> 
> The hammer fist and palm heel are gross motor skills and are good simple strikes. I agree that in theory one could generate a perfect reverse punch with the proper hip and weight placement and knuckle placement and rotation of hand could generate the most amount of energy, but looking at stress and reacting to people in real time, keeping it simple for basics is good im my opinion. When I do punch most of the time I do not rotate the hand over, as I find it is not want I do in a real fight.



Right, Rich, I'm with you on this. I have serious doubts that the rotation actual contributes significantly to the force delivery. I've heard it said that fist rotation actually does boxers more good than MAists, because there the rotation involves twists the glove fabric around  the point of impact, increasing the likelihood of breaking the skinimportant in a strike to the head, particularly the eye area, where bleeding can interfere with the opponent's vision. But for us... not so much!



Rich Parsons said:


> I also like them as it is part of your legal self defense. If a witness sees your open hand it is a defensive move, push them away - Palm heel - or to defensivly strike them - hammer fist - and this goes a long way with the police and the DA's and possible even the judge, although I was lucky and did not have to deal with a judge for myself.
> 
> If you say you purposefully striked the person with this type of strike and a witness can confirm it then your strike could be determined to be premeditated. Of course talk to a lawyer for actual legal advice. Before and after any altercation.
> 
> Just  my thoughts.



Very shrewd point... that aspect of it never occured to me... makes much sense. Especially because most `laypeople' are unlikely to know just how much force a palm-heel strike is known to capable of delivering...


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## exile (Nov 17, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> exile,
> 
> The hammer fist and palm heel are gross motor skills and are good simple strikes. I agree that in theory one could generate a perfect reverse punch with the proper hip and weight placement and knuckle placement and rotation of hand could generate the most amount of energy, but looking at stress and reacting to people in real time, keeping it simple for basics is good im my opinion. When I do punch most of the time I do not rotate the hand over, as I find it is not want I do in a real fight.



Right, Rich, I'm with you on this. I have serious doubts that the rotation actual contributes significantly to the force delivery. I've heard it said that fist rotation actually does boxers more good than MAists, because there the rotation involves twists the glove fabric around  the point of impact, increasing the likelihood of breaking the skinimportant in a strike to the head, particularly the eye area, where bleeding can interfere with the opponent's vision. But for us... not so much!



Rich Parsons said:


> I also like them as it is part of your legal self defense. If a witness sees your open hand it is a defensive move, push them away - Palm heel - or to defensivly strike them - hammer fist - and this goes a long way with the police and the DA's and possible even the judge, although I was lucky and did not have to deal with a judge for myself.
> 
> If you say you purposefully striked the person with this type of strike and a witness can confirm it then your strike could be determined to be premeditated. Of course talk to a lawyer for actual legal advice. Before and after any altercation.
> 
> Just  my thoughts.



Very shrewd point... that aspect of it never occured to me... makes much sense. Especially because most `laypeople' are unlikely to know just how much force a palm-heel strike is known to be capable of delivering...


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2007)

Open hand

More relaxed strike more power.

Nothing wrong with closed hand it is good to train but there is a lot of power in a palm strike. Less damage to the hand as well.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 18, 2007)

exile said:


> Right, Rich, I'm with you on this. I have serious doubts that the rotation actual contributes significantly to the force delivery. I've heard it said that fist rotation actually does boxers more good than MAists, because there the rotation involves twists the glove fabric around the point of impact, increasing the likelihood of breaking the skinimportant in a strike to the head, particularly the eye area, where bleeding can interfere with the opponent's vision. But for us... not so much!


 
Coming as I do from a bagua background where the palm is king I have to say I favour open-hand strikes.  As you say there is a simplicity to the strike which does not subtract from the power delivered.  How mant times have we seen someone damage a wrist because their punch was a little off.  

I am also quite convinced that rotation during striking adds nothing to power.  If you are using your arm to development power then you are striking incorrectly.  Power comes from the legs and waist and is channelled by the arms and hands.  This is not to say a strong arm doesn't help its just that it is not where the power comes from.

There is something else about open-hand strikes.  They have versatility.  A palm can be a strike, a push or a slap.  It can strike and then hold acting as a pivot for another attack, or it can strike and slide which also generates another attack.  You know in bagua there are eight recognised palms, a couple you might call knifehand or spear hand blows, but the point is that it is a versatile strike.

Traditionally in CMAs it is also considered more dangerous than a fist because of the Qi portal Lao Gong, which is in the middle of the palm.  An open hand strike allows this Qi portal to be brought into play.

Of course, when it comes down to it, bagua tends to get in close so elbows and shoulder blocks also begin to factor in as options.


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## Guardian (Nov 18, 2007)

I guess I'm the lone advocate of closed fist LOL.  That's ok, I've read alot of good points here and as with anything, learning is an on-going process and I love to take everything into consideration.

Ok, no one said we had to use open or closed to detail police reports LOL and the elbows are always a give me with me.  One thing is for certain, I'm not sticking around to wait for the police to come, even in a self-defense of someone else, my name is not important and my presences is not necessary unless it's a serious crime such as rape and then I don't think the witnesses are going to give a cra_ of whether I used open or closed fist on the assailant, that pretty much goes for most reasons that I would insert myself into a situation.

Just another view folks, that's all.


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## Doc_Jude (Nov 18, 2007)

Since this is "General Self Defense", then Open Hands all the way, Hammer Fists being the exception.


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## potterfan77 (Nov 29, 2007)

My weapon of choice would depend on where my strike was going to be. If I were going for the head then I would use an open hand palm heal to jaw(double palm heal if possible) that way you break their jaw and the fight is over. If I were going fro the body then I would have a better chance of breaking ribs with a closed fist.


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## kidswarrior (Nov 29, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Coming as I do from a bagua background where the palm is king I have to say I favour open-hand strikes.  *As you say there is a simplicity to the strike which does not subtract from the power delivered.*  How mant times have we seen someone damage a wrist because their punch was a little off.


So true. As Exile and Rich pointed out, it uses gross motor skill, which we still have even when the adrenaline is shooting through the veins.



> I am also quite convinced that rotation during striking adds nothing to power.  *If you are using your arm to development power then you are striking incorrectly.  Power comes from the legs and waist* and is channelled by the arms and hands.  This is not to say a strong arm doesn't help its just that it is not where the power comes from.


I believe this is true, too S-T. Have seen it taught more in CMA teachings than my Kempo training, tho (but that's just me).



> *There is something else about open-hand strikes.  They have versatility.*  A palm can be a strike, a push or a slap.  It can strike and then hold acting as a pivot for another attack, or it can strike and slide which also generates another attack.  You know in bagua there are eight recognised palms, a couple you might call knifehand or spear hand blows, but the point is that it is a versatile strike.


I didn't understand how much versatility and how many options until at one point I began a serious shift from closed fists to open hand. The combinations and changes available are myriad. For example, a closed fist can't grab, which means it can't set up a throw or lock, and it can't rip or stab soft tissue. And it makes a slower block if one is suddenly on the defensive end. I do still use closed fists, but not like in my old boxing days.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Nov 29, 2007)

I tend to use open hand strikes, except I will punch to the body or use a hook on the jaw, but no strait punches to the face.
I might have to transition to a gun or knife and a broken dominant hand can impeed that.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 29, 2007)

Doc_Jude said:


> Hammer Fists being the exception.


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## theletch1 (Nov 29, 2007)

I've always heard it put that a hard target demands a soft weapon and a soft target demands a hard weapon.  Open hand to the head and closed to the body. Being an aikido-ka I generally use an open hand 90% of the time.  I'm always looking for an opening to set up a lock or throw and the open hand gives me those options as well as the chance to throw a chop, slap, poke to the eyes or throat.  Generally, I tend to use the open hand as long as possible at the outset of an altercation as it's less intimidating to witnesses and less threatening to an aggressor.


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## Doc_Jude (Nov 29, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> I've always heard it put that a hard target demands a soft weapon and a soft target demands a hard weapon.  Open hand to the head and closed to the body. Being an aikido-ka I generally use an open hand 90% of the time.  I'm always looking for an opening to set up a lock or throw and the open hand gives me those options as well as the chance to throw a chop, slap, poke to the eyes or throat.  Generally, I tend to use the open hand as long as possible at the outset of an altercation as it's less intimidating to witnesses and less threatening to an aggressor.



Try a chop to the floating rib, or a short chop (5th Metacarpal palm heel chop) to the kidney or the base of the skull. Brutal.


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## ares (Dec 2, 2007)

I prefer to get in close and use the ol elbow. Much more force and you don't get hurt as much. Plus you get bonus stuff because of the nature of the strike, your hands are free to grab, wrap, ect. Scott


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