# The Donohi: Ancient Body Warming Tool of the Ninja



## Shinobu Inochi Dojo (Aug 15, 2013)

Shinobu Inochi: The Donohi



In our first installment, we take an in depth look at the donohi, a versatile body warming device that is listed in the Shoninki as one of the six primary tools of the ninja.







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## Ken Morgan (Aug 15, 2013)

View attachment $imagesCABW52TH.jpg
I thought this was the ancient body warming tool of the Ninja?


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## Shinobu Inochi Dojo (Aug 15, 2013)

Lol!


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## Chris Parker (Aug 16, 2013)

Hmm.

Look, to be frank, it looked interesting, but there are some issues... first is the connection to Antony Cummins. Honestly, I wouldn't look to his material as being that authentic, or reliable. He cannot read or speak Japanese (on that note, it's not "donnohee", it's "doh noh-hee", three separate words, meaning "body of fire", the pronunciation needs work... but it's better than Antony's!), so couldn't translate the works the way he says he did. He had a group (headed by Yoshie Minami) to do that... but he added his own interpretations, ideas, concepts, and imaginings to what he believes was possibly meant by the old texts. In other words, what you're following isn't necessarily what was written, but more Antony's take on what he thinks it was meant to be. And with his very lacking understanding and experience, I wouldn't trust it at all. If Antony is on your side, that's not a good sign (nor is the praise from "blackswordshinobi".... Billy's pretty well known here).

Next is the length... 45 minutes? Really? There's no introduction, just an immediate launch into "so we're going to Home Depot to get materials..." Honestly, I just skipped to the end... where you discussed the results of your experiment. Of course, that does beg the question as to how this is a video of information, rather than a conceptual experiment to see how your interpretation goes... In other words, it can't be an indepth look at something that requires experimentation to see if it works in the first place... especially if it takes two attempts to get a satisfactory result.

But before I got to skipping, there was the very beginning of the clip, where you spoke about yourself and your training partner having "a combined 26 years of experience in traditional Japanese martial arts"... again, begging a question of "what martial arts?" I mean, many here (including myself) count that amount by ourselves, rather than needing to combine with someone else to get to that figure. So I had a look around... I'm assuming you are Damian Gomez? If so, then your background is Bujinkan via some seminars/camps and a home study course from Richard Van Donk, starting in 2003, currently continuing the home study route for the Shidoshi Teachers Training Course... hmm.

Look, I applaud the enthusiasm, but I'd heartily recommend a bit more discernment in who you listen to. I'd recommend contacting Don Roley to see if he has any copies of his translation of the Shoninki personally, as it's a far more reliable source that Antony's. So well done on the effort.


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## Shinobu Inochi Dojo (Aug 16, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Look, to be frank, it looked interesting, but there are some issues... first is the connection to Antony Cummins. Honestly, I wouldn't look to his material as being that authentic, or reliable. He cannot read or speak Japanese (on that note, it's not "donnohee", it's "doh noh-hee", three separate words, meaning "body of fire", the pronunciation needs work... but it's better than Antony's!), so couldn't translate the works the way he says he did. He had a group (headed by Yoshie Minami) to do that... but he added his own interpretations, ideas, concepts, and imaginings to what he believes was possibly meant by the old texts. In other words, what you're following isn't necessarily what was written, but more Antony's take on what he thinks it was meant to be. And with his very lacking understanding and experience, I wouldn't trust it at all. If Antony is on your side, that's not a good sign (nor is the praise from "blackswordshinobi".... Billy's pretty well known here).
> 
> ...




 Good morning, -I would like to first thank you Mr. Parker for taking the time to watch our video (or at least the end of it). Your statement about the pronunciation of the word "donohi" makes you seem to be somewhat of a nitpicker. I am not here to get into a petty debate about the pronunciation of the word itself. I will however address some of your other gripes that you had about our 45 min long video on historical ninjutsu that you didn't even thoroughly watch.

In regards to Antony, the book titled "In Search of the Ninja" is the only book in which he has injected his own theory. His other publications are mere translations of military manuals that pertain to ninjutsu. And what makes you think that we don't already own other translations of the Shoninki?

 Concerning your inquiry about my personal martial arts background and experience...To make assumptions about somebody's martial arts education and background only reflects poorly on you and your character. I don't feel that I need to prove anything to you or anybody else here in this forum in regards to that. And I am very proud of you Mr. Parker that you yourself can boast twenty six years of martial arts training and experience. Does your mother know about that? I'm sure that she would also be very proud of you. 

-Damian G.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 16, 2013)

Let's keep it civil, folks. Attacking the message is one thing. Attacking the messenger another.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 17, 2013)

Hmm. Perhaps my points were missed... I'll attempt to clarify.



Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> Good morning, -I would like to first thank you Mr. Parker for taking the time to watch our video (or at least the end of it). Your statement about the pronunciation of the word "donohi" makes you seem to be somewhat of a nitpicker. I am not here to get into a petty debate about the pronunciation of the word itself. I will however address some of your other gripes that you had about our 45 min long video on historical ninjutsu that you didn't even thoroughly watch.



Firstly, I'd be careful about the passive aggressive tone... it's not entirely encouraged here, to say the least. But to the point of "nitpicking" on pronunciation, you're presenting a video that's meant to be informative... and can't pronounce the name of the item you're informing people on. I'd say that's a bit past just "nitpicking", personally... it's a basic display of education or lack thereof. But that was really besides the main point. Speaking of....



Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> In regards to Antony, the book titled "In Search of the Ninja" is the only book in which he has injected his own theory. His other publications are mere translations of military manuals that pertain to ninjutsu. And what makes you think that we don't already own other translations of the Shoninki?



Er, no. Completely wrong, actually. You have to remember that I've spent far, far too many hours dedicated to dealing with Antony, including quite a fair amount personally between himself and myself in a few media, and I've seen the reality there. Without getting too much into fraudbusting (not allowed here, after all), the simple facts are that Antony Cummins is documented lying, giving fraudulent accounts of his training history, plagiarizing (from other known frauds, for the record... he didn't even know where to steal from to get good information!), having violent outbursts, having no ability to counter any arguments made, having no ability with the Japanese language, no affinity with the culture, no understanding of basics of martial arts, no ability to distinguish one martial approach (system) from any other, and more. He cannot read or speak Japanese, so cannot translate anything. The only way for him to have a book with his name on it is to either take credit for others work, in which case he has less ethics than anyone else I've come across, or he's adding his own comments to the translation work of others... which is what he's doing. And before you argue that, once again, I've gone round and round with Antony a number of times, including when he was posting videos showing him trying to figure out certain things his translation team came up with, by adding elements that aren't in the text, explicit or implied. I've been part of discussions where the original Japanese text was given, an accurate translation was provided, and this was compared with the passages in Antony's publication... and Antony's was inaccurate, had a lot added to it (that was based on Antony's ideas and play, not anything in the text itself, nor anything that would necessarily match the context of the original text itself). This is hardly surprising, of course, as the translation team simply aren't that qualified to translate such texts. They have no basis in the technical methods or the contexts of the material they're translating. Why is that important? Well, imagine that someone's translating a book on car engines directly from another language with no knowledge of cars or engines... you'd get descriptions like "petrol package" (fuel tank), or "igniting corks" (spark plugs)... you might get something close, but it'd be, well, off. That's the problem with Antony using what is essentially a Kanji club (how he describes them, so you know) to do the translation. They, and Antony, simply don't know the subject. And that means that they have no chance of really getting it correct. Whether the Shoninki, or his other "translations". I mean, he had a martial art school/system that he taught which he referred to as "The Dignity of Flying Birds", a line he took from his translation of the Shoninki... except his translation was wrong, the line referred to the "position of birds", nothing to do with dignity (there would need to be a second kanji which wasn't present), and the actual meaning was almost opposite to the way he interpreted it. That's the level of his translation.

Now, I know that sounds unnecessarily harsh about poor old Antony.... but believe me, I'm leaving out quite a bit of the issues with him personally and his approach. He is not to be taken as a serious source, or his "research" as accurate. It's not his focus.



Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> Concerning your inquiry about my personal martial arts background and experience...To make assumptions about somebody's martial arts education and background only reflects poorly on you and your character. I don't feel that I need to prove anything to you or anybody else here in this forum in regards to that.



Well, I provided what I found so you could confirm or deny... and, really, the bigger issue is the detail that it seems to be primarily home video training. Why is that an issue? Well, that, combined with the other aspects noted, all indicate a particular personality form... which is not one that has a developed (cultured) filter, for certain reasons. Now, that's fine... if it works for you (to a point), great. However it does raise real questions as to what you might have to offer at this point. So your background, if you're aiming to put up informational videos, is very relevant... and, to be seen as something valuable, it needs to be qualified. Do you need to "prove yourself" to us? Nope. But it'll help if you want to be seen as knowing what you're talking about. 

Out of interest, how does my interest in knowing who I'm conversing with reflect on my character? You'd rather everyone is taken on face value? Criminals on trial are set free just because they say they're innocent? I investigate, son. I like to know who I'm talking to. I don't use a screen name, I use my own. If you want to know something about me, you can ask. This reflects badly? Really? Right...



Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> And I am very proud of you Mr. Parker that you yourself can boast twenty six years of martial arts training and experience. Does your mother know about that? I'm sure that she would also be very proud of you.
> 
> -Damian G.



Don't really need you to be proud of me, son, you don't have a clue what you're referring to. I didn't boast, I was pointing out certain realities to you. And you never answered my questions, nor, I might note, my actual critiques.... hmm. Oh, and again, you might want to drop the passive aggressive tone... I don't think the warning was only aimed at me....


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 17, 2013)

I've been away from MT for too long, miss seeing your posts Chris.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 17, 2013)

Hey, Ken. Thanks... but I've been away for a bit too (some issues in my personal life...). You've been gallavanting around, though, haven't you?


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 17, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey, Ken. Thanks... but I've been away for a bit too (some issues in my personal life...). You've been gallavanting around, though, haven't you?


Living and working in the Middle East now, back for the summer. Unfortunately swords are illegal where I am, (though there is a small club), so I've been practicing mostly Jodo. Really not much time to be on here while I'm there. Been nice using my shinken all summer though. 
Hope the personal issues aren't too hard on you.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 17, 2013)

Well, if you can't use a sword, a stick will have to do! Yeah, the personal issues aren't hard on me, they're hard on someone else... I've just been looking after her. Hope to see you around here (and FB) over your summer, at least (we're ending our winter now).


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## Shinobu Inochi Dojo (Aug 17, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. Perhaps my points were missed... I'll attempt to clarify.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





LOL, It is obvious that your negative comments are compelled by your dislike for Antony Cummins. That is fine because out of the 368 views that our video has received, you are the only person that has replied negatively. 
So... see you around Mr. Parker! Have fun dorking around with the kangaroos out there in australia!


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## Chris Parker (Aug 17, 2013)

You seem to have missed my point. I applaud the intention, the effort put in, and so on, however I had some critiques (including the length... holding interest that long just isn't easy), some of which was based around your source material in the first place. I've seen many videos of the same topic (commonly around 3-7 minutes....), with most (well, all, really) taking their approach from Antony's version. Same here. And, frankly, I don't know that he really got it right, for a range of reasons. So I suggested a better source (or, at least, more discernment in who you got information from, based on the information I could find on you, your background, and the video itself, including comments on you-tube). Believe me when I say I was very positive.

Oh, and son? Again, careful with that passive aggressive tone. It's a quick journey to the outside here.


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## jks9199 (Aug 17, 2013)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator


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## Shinobu Inochi Dojo (Aug 17, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> ATTENTION ALL USERS:
> 
> Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.
> 
> ...




Does that include launching personal attacks on new members here in the forum? Because Mr. Chris Parker is making the experience here at Martial Talk very unpleasant. If this is how things are here at Martial Talk, I will do my posting elsewhere next time. Thank You.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 17, 2013)

Chris, you seem to be the one who is missing the point.  With one devastating line ...





> Have fun dorking around with the kangaroos out there in australia!


...Shinobu has demonstrated that you are known to be affiliated with marsupials, that you are therefore uncool, and therefore your critiques have no merit.  Any additional so-called "facts" or evidence or refutation of your points would be superfluous.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 17, 2013)

Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> That is fine because out of the 368 views that our video has received, you are the only person that has replied negatively.



Point 1 - 368 views on YouTube is really really really nothing to brag about.
Point 2 - Lack of negative feedback on YouTube indicates nothing. I watched as much of your video as I could tolerate without Zofran, facepalmed, and closed it out.


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## MJS (Aug 17, 2013)

Folks,

We already have a few posts have been reported and a few warnings.  Let's get back to the discussion please and keep things civil.  If nothing useful is going to come from this thread, it'll be locked.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


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## Shinobu Inochi Dojo (Aug 17, 2013)

MJS said:


> Folks,
> 
> We already have a few posts have been reported and a few warnings.  Let's get back to the discussion please and keep things civil.  If nothing useful is going to come from this thread, it'll be locked.
> 
> ...



Lock it!   -I'm done here.


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## TimoS (Aug 17, 2013)

Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> That is fine because out of the 368 views that our video has received, you are the only person that has replied negatively.



Isn't that like saying that billions of flies can't be wrong, (something I dare not say here) must be good


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## Cryozombie (Sep 4, 2013)

Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> Lock it!   -I'm done here.



*claps* 

Hooray!


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## Chris Parker (Sep 11, 2013)

Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> Does that include launching personal attacks on new members here in the forum? Because Mr. Chris Parker is making the experience here at Martial Talk very unpleasant. If this is how things are here at Martial Talk, I will do my posting elsewhere next time. Thank You.



Hmm. For the record, there were no personal attacks from my side, Damian. You were critiqued (well, your video was), and you were questioned... if you take that as a personal attack, I do recommend you stop putting things out in public. As far as posting elsewhere, sure, you're welcome to... but, again, for the record, this was quite gentle. Try martialartsplanet (MAP) with an Antony Cummins-inspired video if you want to see something a little harsher... or visit Budoseek and try justifying it with Don Roley... have fun with that.



Shinobu Inochi Dojo said:


> Lock it!   -I'm done here.



Not your decision, of course... but if you don't want to post, that's fine as well. I am a little disappointed that you couldn't (or wouldn't) answer simple questions, but that's fine.


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## frank raud (Sep 11, 2013)

Wow, all this over a pocket warmer made from copper pipe! Forgive my ignorance, was this supposed to have been a secret tool only the ninjas had? Or would the average samurai/peasant/fisherman know about such things?


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## Chris Parker (Sep 12, 2013)

Secret? Not really. Other samurai knew about such items? Undoubtedly. Peasants and farmers? Not as sure, but certainly possible. But, as this particular item is listed and described (in a way) in the Shoninki (a text from the Natori family covering aspects of Kishu Ryu Ninjutsu) it has been seized upon as a "secret ninja tool", particularly by the followers of Antony Cummins, and Antony bluntly doesn't have any grounding in the wider history/culture, and has presented it (and other things) as him revealing the "secrets". He's not, of course... but he is unaware of the many others who have covered such things better long before he did, nor of what was actually secret, and what was more an adaptation of common ideas.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 12, 2013)

Bottom line Antony Cummins is a poor source for anyone to quote, use, etc.


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## frank raud (Sep 13, 2013)

So, consider that most measurements(and material) would have to be adapted to modern/Western measurements(I doubt M copper pipe was accessible to ninjas), wouldn't it be easier to just utilise the concept of a pocket warmer and buy one? Seriously, wouldn't an incense burner do the same job? A hot water bottle? Maybe I'm culturally challenged.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 22, 2013)

Nope, you're dead on, Frank. In fact, in describing the video to some of my guys, that's pretty much the simile I used... it's like an old-tech hot water bottle in it's application. The big issue is that, if you're doing this to explore old technology (from an academic point of view), great... but then don't use modern tools, materials etc. If you're just after something that does the job, there are better (modern) items around. Presenting an old technology achieved with modern methods as something that means anything at all is to completely miss the point.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 12, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Bottom line Antony Cummins is a poor source for anyone to quote, use, etc.



But... His Video on how the Game Tenchu Stealth Assassins is "real" ninjutsu is AMAZING.  "Yes, ninjas hid behind walls"  "Yes, ninjas hid on roofs" 

AMAZING.  The guy really revealed secrets in that video, and now I know, I don't need a school, I can learn from the videogame.


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## Aiki Lee (Nov 22, 2013)

What? Cryo- what is that video called? I must se it now. I am _compelled  to see it..._


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