# Chi kung with WT/WC



## yak sao (Jun 25, 2009)

Do any of you practice chi kung along with your WT/WC?
I kind of go back and forth on this one. I know SNT is supposed to be a chi kung set in and of itself. And LT taught a "health version " of SNT several years ago.
I dabble a little in tai chi, but in all seriousness, who has the time? I think I'm better off focusing on one rather than juggling two. 
But as the old joints ache more and more..........


----------



## vincehardy3 (Jun 25, 2009)

I practice the three "internal" systems (Xingyi, Taichi, and BaGua) if you want to call it that.  I received some training in Wing Chun when I was a kid along with some Okinawan Karate.  Some people will tell you that you have to do a set pattern of exercises in order stimulate the various points on the meridians.  I don't know how true that is--I have my problems with it and I've been involved with the "internals" for over 18-years.  OK, I'm rabbling--back to the point.

Just breath--it is that simple when practicing "qigong"...just breath through your movements.  The Okinawans practice Sanchin kata, and they just breath through their sets.  Some people teach a certain method of breathing, but that is neither hear nor there.  You can use Sil Lum Tao (sp) as a qigong set if you like.  It has a lot of elements housed within it.  You can learn proper structure, deliverence of varied techniques, gigong, etc. from Sil Lum Tao.  But, my overall advice is to just breath through your techniques...that is all the qigong that you need.


----------



## vincehardy3 (Jun 25, 2009)

But, I will say this--you do need to learn, if you haven't already, how the breath affects your techniques.  A quick exhale when delivering techniques can speed it up for you.  Getting hit right when you exhale is very painful.  These are just a few examples of how the breath can affect/effect your overall technique.  If done properly your technique will be strong--if done half A@$ your technique will suck.  Just some thoughts.


----------



## vincehardy3 (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry, correction to my previous message.  If you get hit right when you INHALE it can be very painful.


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 25, 2009)

We used to practice Zhan Zhuang as a side practice with our Wing Chun training and we also utilized 3 Qi Gong sets that were incorporated into our system they in compassed both Nei Gong & Wai Gong practices.

The sets were:

Dip Guat Gong - Bone aligning & strengthening, in some elements similar to Yi Jin Jing.

Saam Jin Bou- For transmission of Jing or known as Fa Jing, Canto Fa Gihng

Sei Pai Da- Was for Iron shirt practice it was a group conditioning module, very useful. 

Also in some regards Fa Kuen or Hua Quan is useful as well.


----------



## qwksilver61 (Jun 26, 2009)

Of course, try to explain why a (western)man when struck by lightning was not able to control his body's thermostat....yet monks who have been practicing this art of control  have successfully controlled their  body's thermostat whilst sleeping outdoors at below freezing temps were able to,and raise their body's temperature at will.....I have personally experienced the effects of cinnabar palms(red heated palms) and tendon strengthening exercises .Wing Tsun is part Tao and part meditation,and until recently,(the Wing Tsun)people have discovered it's total benefit.Call it whatever you want,If when practicing you are in an excited state you tend to remain so.....That is why they suggest your thinking is void and without distraction,you know what to do if you have been properly trained,ie;form & placement,interpretation comes later,then it becomes part of you......
  an excited state can carry on into your day.I did an experiment with this phenom.and I personally do not believe it to be just Hocus Pocus.The difference between warming up and springing into an excited state.This coming from a person who is highly skeptical of what works and what does not.
Westerners* typically* require proof,just like accupuncture and remote viewing,can't put your hands on it so it must not be true,something that the ancients have practisced for hundreds if not thousands of years.No,modern man does not have all the answers in his infinite wisdom.Sometime all people need to to is shut their mouths and listen to what the ancients had to tell us,History does repeat itself,and no old does not mean lack of knowledge or outdated. Chi exists!"Nuff said"


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jun 26, 2009)

Cuong Nhu inlcudes two forms that could be called Chi Kung. The First is called 'Tension Kata' (when O'Sensei Ngo Dong created Coung Nhu, he translated most of the names of the material he taught -- many forms names remain in the original, but the forms he created have a mostly English name). Tension Kata is structurally the same as any basic Karate Kata, but done under complete tension. The current rules concerning Tension Kata say it should be done at normal speed, but the old way that it should be done slowly. Either way, it's a good form for conditioning even if you don't believe in Ki/Chi/Pneuma/Mana/Prana.
The other is called Noi Kong (Vietnamese for 'Inner Strength' -- the only form O'Sensei created that has a non-English name). It is structurally the similar to most Wing Chun forms, and is done in the Wing Chun stance. Noi Kong is done under complete tension, and very slowly. The end of the from is a series of body strikes done under normal speed and tension.

I'm aware of no videos available that shows either form on youtube, many Cuong Nhu videos are demos, or something else similarly short.


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 26, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> Hmmm, thats interesting does it look anything like San Chin Kata?
> 
> Thanks for the info,


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jun 26, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Hmmm, thats interesting does it look anything like San Chin Kata?
> 
> Thanks for the info,


 
Tension Kata? No, there's almost no similarities. As I said, Tension Kata is one of the forms created by O'Sensei. However, the Karate in Cuong Nhu is Shotokan, and a youtube search of 'Sanchin, Shotokan' produces no significant results. Then again, most Cuong Nhu forms look dissimilar to there Karate origins. For comparison:





Empi, a requirement for the rank of '1 Black Stripe' (two ranks below Black, in other words a 'San Kyu' requirement). These two are both testing for there Black Belt in this video.




The differences are quite noticable.

I had more, but I'm going to post it seperatly as it isn't relevent to this thread.


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 26, 2009)

Nah, actually I wasn't speaking of "tension kata" but of Noi Kong. 

But thanks for the info, I'll wait for the sperate thread.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jun 26, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Nah, actually I wasn't speaking of "tension kata" but of Noi Kong.
> 
> But thanks for the info, I'll wait for the sperate thread.


 
Noi Kong also looks very little like San Chin. Infact, Tension Kata looks about as dissimilar from San Chin as Noi Kong looks from Sanchin.


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 28, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> Noi Kong also looks very little like San Chin. Infact, Tension Kata looks about as dissimilar from San Chin as Noi Kong looks from Sanchin.


 
Thanks, clears up a lot.


----------



## BFL (Jun 28, 2009)

Pan Nam system has a Chi Kung set that has no fighting applications and is stricktly for opening the channels in the body and promoting flow of energy/chi for health and use (later) in martial application. This form takes about 9-10 minutes to perform properly and one can usually feel results shortly after beginning practice of this form.  
   As well in Pan Nam's SLT the pace is about 9+ minutes and promotes breath/energy flow/relaxation etc.  I've had the opportunity over the past 16+ years to learn 3 different versions of SLT other the Pan Nam set. I've performed them at different rates of speed and energy levels and even when trying to perform them super slow and focusing on energy/breathe etc., I've never felt the flow of energy or chi like I did after only performing the Pan Nam SLT for the 3rd or 4th time.  It simply facilitates energy flow more easily than the other ones I'd learned. I usually start with the Chi Kung set in my practice and then go to SLT, CK, BJ and then the Dummy set.  I've read many times about performing SLT (from various families) over an hours time frame etc, and I've tried that before but never with the results I'd gotten from the Pan Nam set.  Keeping in mind that system is designed for that result in it's practice more so than others.  Not saying it's better than or worse than or any such thing, it's just different in that way.
Peace and Blessings to all,
BFL


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 28, 2009)

BFL said:


> Pan Nam system has a Chi Kung set that has no fighting applications and is stricktly for opening the channels in the body and promoting flow of energy/chi for health and use (later) in martial application. This form takes about 9-10 minutes to perform properly and one can usually feel results shortly after beginning practice of this form.
> As well in Pan Nam's SLT the pace is about 9+ minutes and promotes breath/energy flow/relaxation etc.  I've had the opportunity over the past 16+ years to learn 3 different versions of SLT other the Pan Nam set. I've performed them at different rates of speed and energy levels and even when trying to perform them super slow and focusing on energy/breathe etc., I've never felt the flow of energy or chi like I did after only performing the Pan Nam SLT for the 3rd or 4th time.  It simply facilitates energy flow more easily than the other ones I'd learned. I usually start with the Chi Kung set in my practice and then go to SLT, CK, BJ and then the Dummy set.  I've read many times about performing SLT (from various families) over an hours time frame etc, and I've tried that before but never with the results I'd gotten from the Pan Nam set.  Keeping in mind that system is designed for that result in it's practice more so than others.  Not saying it's better than or worse than or any such thing, it's just different in that way.
> Peace and Blessings to all,
> BFL




Thanks for the info,

I've seen Pan Nam's SLT & BJ but not the Qi Gong form, does BJ also incorporate energy works as seen in SLT? Or is the intent different? Could you elaborate a little more on that?

Thanks,


----------



## BFL (Jun 29, 2009)

All the forms are supposed to be performed slowly (8-10 minutes). In SLT you learn to connect energy/breath and center/root properly.  In CK you learn to move your center/root and maintain breath properly etc. In BJ you learn to move your body at different angles if needed and still maintain your center/root and continue breathing properly.  Truely no different in their goal than any other W.C. forms, BJ being the "Oh Crap" form as I've heard it called, in Pan Nam as well as other families. Again the main difference being that Pan Nam focuses more on the internal aspects of linking breath/energy with root/center/movements.


----------



## yak sao (Jun 29, 2009)

I've heard speculation that Yip Man streamlined the forms when he got to HK removing many of the "chi kung " aspects and focusing on the fighting aspects. Do you think his original SNT, CK, BT was more like the Pan Nam Wing Chun? 

Also. I mentioned in my original post that Leung Ting taught a "health version " of SNT after he traveled to the mainland and saw many of the other WC styles including Yip Man's old Foshan students.
Has anyone here seen this, and what are your thoughts on it?


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 29, 2009)

yak sao said:


> I've heard speculation that Yip Man streamlined the forms when he got to HK removing many of the "chi kung " aspects and focusing on the fighting aspects. Do you think his original SNT, CK, BT was more like the Pan Nam Wing Chun?
> 
> Also. I mentioned in my original post that Leung Ting taught a "health version " of SNT after he traveled to the mainland and saw many of the other WC styles including Yip Man's old Foshan students.
> Has anyone here seen this, and what are your thoughts on it?



To be honest its probably all up to speculation at the present.

However my take seeing various systems of Wing Chun (given limited interactions, lol no mastery here...)

Older systems for instance Chi Sim Weng Chun, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun & Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun all utilize Qi Gong sets and energetics are incorporated into the training syllabus which are equally integral to the core training compound of SLT, CK, BJ etc...

In fact in the Chi Sim system they have 3 different ways to train the forms syllabus 
1. External, like commonly seen in most Ip Man Wing Chun.
2. Internal, via Qi Gong energetics usage.
3. Flowing, continual flow illustrating the concept of "Lau"

So your probably on to something in your assessment. 

Just my .02


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 29, 2009)

BFL said:


> All the forms are supposed to be performed slowly (8-10 minutes). In SLT you learn to connect energy/breath and center/root properly.  In CK you learn to move your center/root and maintain breath properly etc. In BJ you learn to move your body at different angles if needed and still maintain your center/root and continue breathing properly.  Truely no different in their goal than any other W.C. forms, BJ being the "Oh Crap" form as I've heard it called, in Pan Nam as well as other families. Again the main difference being that Pan Nam focuses more on the internal aspects of linking breath/energy with root/center/movements.




Thanks for elaborating, much appreciated.


----------



## BFL (Jun 29, 2009)

yak sao said:


> I've heard speculation that Yip Man streamlined the forms when he got to HK removing many of the "chi kung " aspects and focusing on the fighting aspects. Do you think his original SNT, CK, BT was more like the Pan Nam Wing Chun?
> 
> I wasn't there nor have I heard one way or another _facts_ on it, however it is possible of course as anything is.  I feel he (Y.M.) streamlined it to a more scientific approach and that he was definately an inovator as well as phenomonal W.C. practicioner.  I do not find any facts or speculation that his was more like Pan Nam's and do not believe so myself, however as I said, anything is possible.


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 29, 2009)

One thing to note based on certain research. It is believed that Grandmaster Ip Man being a freind of Yuen Kay San adopted the Luk Sau platform and various other devices, so I imagine a lot of inovation as stated was involved in the process. 


Link to other thread for further details. 

Im sorry for the thread, it was another train reck on KFO so sift through the crap at your own risk but Robert Chu Sifu goes into further detail about the luk sau platform, etc...

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54009


----------



## Tensei85 (Jun 29, 2009)

Actually scrap that link, use this one.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54251&page=3

Sorry, I'm not able to edit my post anymore for some reason. (glitch??)


----------



## CuongNhuka (Jun 29, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Actually scrap that link, use this one.
> 
> http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54251&page=3
> 
> Sorry, I'm not able to edit my post anymore for some reason. (glitch??)


 
it's matter of how much time passed from when you posted to tried to edit. Or if you logged out/logged in.


----------

