# Should UFC Adopt Shin Guards?



## paitingman (Jul 11, 2021)

How many legends must break their leg before a safety measure is considered?

After Conor Mcgregor's leg broke at UFC 264 last night, I saw a few tweets about shin guards almost immediately.
I know some promotions have used shin guards. And all the pros are surely used to training & grappling with protective gear.
I spar and roll with shin guards on and I don't find them to be overly frustrating. 

How much do you think they help in protecting you from snapping your leg?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2021)

UFC should be like Sanda with head gear and chest protection. It's stupid to have serious injury in sport.


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## paitingman (Jul 11, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think UFC should be like Sanda with head gear and chest protection?
> 
> 
> View attachment 26999


I imagine for UFC in the 2020s a futuristic, minimal, low profile shin guard and protective gear. Something very thin, leathery(?) but protective and it actually could save your leg from snapping. 
But then also head and ear protection of the same sort. Very thin. 
Maybe it's impact-reactive or something. 

Perhaps chest protection of a similar material, but more clothes like? A tight, padded vest? 
What's the deal with naked fighting?

MMA as practiced by the UFC is currently the pinnacle of modern martial arts competition, but it's also only naked fighting.


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## Anarax (Jul 11, 2021)

I'm all for fighters having long and relatively safe careers. However, adding shinguards in Pro MMA or kickboxing I think would make it less competitive. The fighters must setup or choose their kicking targets carefully and need to readjust if their kicks are getting checked. Adding shinguards would lessen the effectiveness of kicks. Leg kicks wouldn't inflict the same trauma as well. Porier's calf kick on Connor in the second fight was a game changer. If they had shinguards on that would've hampered Porier's ability to land that kick effectively. Wearing shinguards while grappling is awkward and restrictive as well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2021)

If you use bullet proof vest in sparring, you will build up bad habit not to block/dodge body shot. Too much body protect can also change the sparring completely.


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## Steve (Jul 11, 2021)

I don't know what's best for the sport. But that was a gruesome injury.  And the vitriol coming from McGregor was pretty bad too.  Guy has some issues.


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## paitingman (Jul 11, 2021)

Anarax said:


> I'm all for fighters having long and relatively safe careers. However, adding shinguards in Pro MMA or kickboxing I think would make it less competitive. The fighters must setup or choose their kicking targets carefully and need to readjust if their kicks are getting checked. Adding shinguards would lessen the effectiveness of kicks. Leg kicks wouldn't inflict the same trauma as well. Porier's calf kick on Connor in the second fight was a game changer. If they had shinguards on that would've hampered Porier's ability to land that kick effectively. Wearing shinguards while grappling is awkward and restrictive as well.


this is why I think a newer, thinner concept for protective gear would be necessary.
something that does not want to deform under sudden impact. 
It's so protective it becomes a weapon, which is why helmets and more protective gear would be needed I guess.

I came up watching Pancrase and I thought the shin guards looked so cool lol. I also come from a perspective of wearing WT style shin guards my whole life and I wear them for my comfort mostly.
I do not feel hindered in how well I can cause damage to any part of the body, but they have always been the norm to me.

I can see how shin guards are a real pain grappling if you play bottom a lot.


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## paitingman (Jul 11, 2021)

I also just read Coach John Kavanaugh says he kicked Porier's elbow while throwing a front kick and fractured his shin.

Sooo maybe just a simple, minimal elbow pad would've prevented the whole accident? I'm all for blunting elbows and saving a few faces as well.


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## CB Jones (Jul 11, 2021)

How much easier would it be to grab and trap the leg for grapplers if their opponents were wearing shinguards?

Seems like it might create an advantage for grapplers.

And why chest protectors?  Body shots doesn't seem like that big of a risk?


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## paitingman (Jul 12, 2021)

CB Jones said:


> How much easier would it be to grab and trap the leg for grapplers if their opponents were wearing shinguards?
> 
> Seems like it might create an advantage for grapplers.
> 
> And why chest protectors?  Body shots doesn't seem like that big of a risk?


They definitely make it easier to hold the leg and foot in some instances, but so do pants and shoes.

I don't advocate for chest protectors. I don't think body shots are a risk.
The post where I mention chest protection is me daydreaming of a more futuristic, thin armor (that may protect well but probably would also cause damage as a result) warranting more protection like a some sort of head and body protection. 
Soft shin guards don't create a requirement for a chest protector.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 12, 2021)

Its the UFC. If you want to wrap yourself in a bubble I'm sure there are other sports out there. But if you want to make a billion dollar company and make millions in competition, it is what it is, the competitors know the risks.
In my opinion. Shin guards are good for taking an elbow and damaging your training schedule but before people make emotional or even semi- rational decisions, you might want to show the empirical data that proves that Shin guards will prevent broken bones. Show that head gear will prevent brain damage.


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## paitingman (Jul 12, 2021)

Anarax said:


> I'm all for fighters having long and relatively safe careers. However, adding shinguards in Pro MMA or kickboxing I think would make it less competitive. The fighters must setup or choose their kicking targets carefully and need to readjust if their kicks are getting checked. Adding shinguards would lessen the effectiveness of kicks. Leg kicks wouldn't inflict the same trauma as well. Porier's calf kick on Connor in the second fight was a game changer. If they had shinguards on that would've hampered Porier's ability to land that kick effectively. Wearing shinguards while grappling is awkward and restrictive as well.


Also, what if fighters were just allowed to wrap, brace, and put some tape on the lower calf area?
That's what many of us used back in the day at TKD tournaments if shin guards weren't required.

Calf kicks are usually aimed at the upper, more muscular part of the calf, so no protection up there. Plus you wouldn't really like the have that part of your leg taped off either. 

I wonder if that type of wrapping could even help prevent crazy stuff like that tho...


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## paitingman (Jul 12, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> Its the UFC. If you want to wrap yourself in a bubble I'm sure there are other sports out there. But if you want to make a billion dollar company and make millions in competition, it is what it is, the competitors know the risks.
> In my opinion. Shin guards are good for taking an elbow and damaging your training schedule but before people make emotional or even semi- rational decisions, you might want to show the empirical data that proves that Shin guards will prevent broken bones. Show that head gear will prevent brain damage.


Do you think shin guards could help with broken bones?


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## Anarax (Jul 12, 2021)

paitingman said:


> this is why I think a newer, thinner concept for protective gear would be necessary.
> something that does not want to deform under sudden impact.
> It's so protective it becomes a weapon, which is why helmets and more protective gear would be needed I guess.
> 
> ...


This came up in another thread. Most protective equipment(gloves, mouthguard, etc) used in pro fights is for the person wearing it, not to protect the other person. 

I agree, I love the look and feel of shinguards. Makes me feel like I'm suiting up for melee combat. However, being kicked by both bare conditioned shins and shinguards, bare shins are much sharper in pain and trauma. The bone penetrates deeper and the pain is more severe. On the other hand, people usually throw with more power with shinguards because they aren't as concerned of getting checked due to the added protection. I think the level of caution pro fighters(MMA or Kickboxing) exercise when throwing kicks causes better strategies and technique to be used. Setting the kicks up with punches, altering angles, adjusting the timing of the extension to throw off their opponents timing, etc. 

Personally, I find the whole process of cortical remodeling(shin/bone conditioning) to be incredible. Having done bone conditioning myself in Karate also helps me appreciate what fighters put themselves through to achieve hard bones. It's amazing how fighters forge their bodies into weapons, I think some of it might be lost if they incorporate shinguards. It removes some of the conditioning element. The same could be said about chest protectors.


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## Anarax (Jul 12, 2021)

paitingman said:


> Also, what if fighters were just allowed to wrap, brace, and put some tape on the lower calf area?
> That's what many of us used back in the day at TKD tournaments if shin guards weren't required.
> 
> Calf kicks are usually aimed at the upper, more muscular part of the calf, so no protection up there. Plus you wouldn't really like the have that part of your leg taped off either.
> ...


I'm aware of leg wraps and have seen them before, but I've never used them. Did you feel more protected with it wrapped? Did it hinder your movement or your ability to extend/contract your foot?


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## Balas Sermas (Aug 3, 2021)

Not the fault of organization if McGregor didn't do sufficient shin conditioning. Muay Thai fighters manage just fine without even breaking their shins.


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## Cynik75 (Aug 3, 2021)

UFC should be replaced with e-UFC. Nobody will break anything 🧑‍🦽...


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## Martial D (Aug 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> UFC should be like Sanda with head gear and chest protection. It's stupid to have serious injury in sport.
> 
> 
> View attachment 26999


There is actually a counter argument to that. Gloves headgear and shinguards eliminate any sense of caution. Headgear, for instance, eliminates the sting from punches and the perceived risk of damage in training. Which leads people to go harder. In reality though headgear does nothing in the way of mitigating potential brain trauma 

By the same token, gloves and shinguards are basically weapons rather than protection for the opponent, as they allow you to throw much harder without risk of pain to yourself.


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## Steve (Aug 3, 2021)

When it happened to Anderson Silva, it seemed like a fluke.  But it seems to be a thing now.  I don't think it's good for the sport to have elite level athletes sidelined due to serious (gruesome) injuries occurring through proper execution of technique.  If shin guards will prevent this grizzly injury from occurring, then I'm all for it.

Still don't think you can fix the rest of what's wrong with McGregor, though.


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## Argus (Aug 11, 2021)

This is kind of like what I see in many Filipino Martial arts.

_Swords_ are dangerous, so we practice with rattan _sticks_.

But rattan sticks are dangerous too, so we wear _protective equipment_.

Now because we wear protective equipment, _everyone just shrugs off what would have been a lethal blow, and 99% of stick fights look like slugging matches that eventually end up grappling on the ground_...

Noone seems to realize that if they weren't wearing protective equipment, or heaven forbid were using a Sword or fighting weight stick, the match would have been over with the first critical blow that landed. Practicing or sparring like this is, as a result, kind of stupid.

If you want to practice using weapons in unrealistic ways that will get you hurt, whether they be shins or fists, by all means, mandate protective equipment and practice as if you will always be wearing it. But I think you lose the entire purpose of the art in the first place when you do that. Protective equipment is okay to prevent injury, but only so long as you are very honest about what would happen to yourself or your opponent if you weren't wearing that equipment. And for competitions, I would prefer to see less, or almost no protective equipment unless it is entirely too dangerous (ie, weapons based sparring, etc.), otherwise people can get away with things that they really shouldn't be able to, and you lose a lot of nuance and valuable skill, IE, just wailing away at eachother with sticks and ignoring blows that would be lethal or debilitating, just because the equipment and rule-sets allow you to. You end up with an abstract game that is further and further removed from an actual fighting art.


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## Argus (Aug 11, 2021)

Steve said:


> I don't think it's good for the sport to have elite level athletes sidelined due to serious (gruesome) injuries occurring through proper execution of technique.



It's not proper execution of technique if you break your hand or shin... You're obviously doing something in practice with certain protective equpiment which is not safe to do without that protective equipment (in the environment you're practicing for, or indeed, in the real world). It's a problem with training.


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## punisher73 (Aug 11, 2021)

Steve said:


> When it happened to Anderson Silva, it seemed like a fluke.  But it seems to be a thing now.  I don't think it's good for the sport to have elite level athletes sidelined due to serious (gruesome) injuries occurring through proper execution of technique.  If shin guards will prevent this grizzly injury from occurring, then I'm all for it.
> 
> Still don't think you can fix the rest of what's wrong with McGregor, though.



I still think, at this point, it is a rare injury.  The UFC has had 573 events (including the regular UFC, Fight Nights etc.).  That's probably easily over 3,000 fights (assuming 5-6 fights only per card).  I am aware of only two injuries like this.  McGregor and Silva. Which would put the injury at a very conservative .07% risk  

In Silva's case, he has tested positive for steroids in the past and it has been shown that steroid usage weakens your bones.  So, that's a factor that might have been a cause in his break.  McGregor admitted that he had multiple stress fractures in his shin prior to the fight, so that's a factor.

I think it is more a case of those guys not doing what they were supposed to do.


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## Steve (Aug 11, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> I still think, at this point, it is a rare injury.  The UFC has had 573 events (including the regular UFC, Fight Nights etc.).  That's probably easily over 3,000 fights (assuming 5-6 fights only per card).  I am aware of only two injuries like this.  McGregor and Silva. Which would put the injury at a very conservative .07% risk
> 
> In Silva's case, he has tested positive for steroids in the past and it has been shown that steroid usage weakens your bones.  So, that's a factor that might have been a cause in his break.  McGregor admitted that he had multiple stress fractures in his shin prior to the fight, so that's a factor.
> 
> I think it is more a case of those guys not doing what they were supposed to do.


And Chris Weidman in April, and Corey hill in 2008.  Ended Hill's career.  

So, at least four elite level athletes (i.e. UFC pros) sidelined, two within just the last few months.  I think we can agree that it's rare.  But I'd say once or even twice is an anomaly, and Silva broke his leg in like 2013.  So, it was grizzly, but unique... a fluke.  Now, though, we have two more in just a few months.  Seems like a trend to me,  and that it occurs through the proper execution of technique is a problem.   

I see your point, and so maybe shin guards aren't the answer.  But if fighters are hiding injuries or doing other things that put them at undue risk, something needs to change.  We shouldn't need for people to risk their lives or livelihoods for our entertainment.  That's not for me, and is largely why I stopped watching NFL football and boxing.  The more I learned about TBI, the less interested I became. Not a principled stand or anything like that, and It's not that I don't enjoy the sport and the competition. I just don't need to watch folks seriously hurting themselves.  Just not fun for me.


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## Steve (Aug 11, 2021)

Argus said:


> It's not proper execution of technique if you break your hand or shin... You're obviously doing something in practice with certain protective equpiment which is not safe to do without that protective equipment (in the environment you're practicing for, or indeed, in the real world). It's a problem with training.


I disagree.  Unless you can show me video of those kicks and tell me how they executed the leg kick wrong.


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## Argus (Aug 11, 2021)

Steve said:


> I disagree.  Unless you can show me video of those kicks and tell me how they executed the leg kick wrong.


Not that the kick itself is wrong, but the application. I admit to not training Muay Thai, and hence never using a shin kick, but my impression is that you should be rather careful with how you employ it because, yes, if you meet an opposing shin square on while going all out, you're likely to break something. So, I might suggest being more reserved and careful in how you employ it, in much the same way that people who train to strike without gloves are much more reserved and careful about smashing their knuckles into potentially hard, boney targets.

Open hand strikes exist for a great reason, just like other forms of kicks exist for a great reason. My suggestion is to train with an awareness of what happens when you take off the protective gear, and how you need to change your behavior when you do, so that you think twice about throwing, say, a shin kick with all your might at an angle that your opponent can check it square on.

Even Mike Tyson broke his hand when he got into a fight outside of the ring, and wasn't wearing gloves. That didn't have to happen. It's just that he never trained for a situation where he might not be wearing wraps and gloves.

Training to turn your limbs into specialized, armored bludgeoning devices comes with some drawbacks, and artificially warps the nature of what you do in competition versus reality. The more you add artificial elements, the more you start to play a game that has less and less similarity to what it's supposed to. Fewer rules, and less protective equipment, is exactly why MMA / UFC became popular in the first place.

See my sword/stick fighting analogy at the end of page 1.


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## punisher73 (Aug 11, 2021)

Steve said:


> And Chris Weidman in April, and Corey hill in 2008.  Ended Hill's career.
> 
> So, at least four elite level athletes (i.e. UFC pros) sidelined, two within just the last few months.  I think we can agree that it's rare.  But I'd say once or even twice is an anomaly, and Silva broke his leg in like 2013.  So, it was grizzly, but unique... a fluke.  Now, though, we have two more in just a few months.  Seems like a trend to me,  and that it occurs through the proper execution of technique is a problem.
> 
> I see your point, and so maybe shin guards aren't the answer.  But if fighters are hiding injuries or doing other things that put them at undue risk, something needs to change.  We shouldn't need for people to risk their lives or livelihoods for our entertainment.  That's not for me, and is largely why I stopped watching NFL football and boxing.  The more I learned about TBI, the less interested I became. Not a principled stand or anything like that, and It's not that I don't enjoy the sport and the competition. I just don't need to watch folks seriously hurting themselves.  Just not fun for me.


In complete agreement about athletes hiding injuries to get a payday.  Its a catch 22 for most of them.  What they do causes repeat injuries and they are always injured, so the only way to heal is to not fight.  If they don't fight, they don't get paid.  

The thing about striking in general is that you HAVE TO condition your body weapons for this if you aren't going to put on protective gear.  In 3 out of the 4 instances, the person with the injury was not primarily a striker.  It would be interesting to see what, if any, conditioning they had done and how long they have been doing it.  In Silva's case I still think it could be linked to his steroid use.

That was why just about every single striking art, before commercialism, had body weapon conditioning in it so you wouldn't injure yourself when striking another person.


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## Buka (Aug 12, 2021)

We used to have some really long sparring nights. Shin pads sure did alleviate a lot of bruised shins. I always wore them in the dojo for sparring, didn't care for them for competitions.


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## paitingman (Aug 12, 2021)

What do you do to minimize the risk of this happening to you?
Is it just a freak accident every time? Is it a poorly executed technique sometimes?

For myself, I pretty much never throw full out lowkicks. Softer thrown kicks people have a hard time seeing coming have always worked fine for me. 
I also don't tend to land with my lower shin much; maybe 10 to 15% of the time. 

How do you avoid this injury?


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## paitingman (Aug 12, 2021)

Argus said:


> Not that the kick itself is wrong, but the application. I admit to not training Muay Thai, and hence never using a shin kick, but my impression is that you should be rather careful with how you employ it because, yes, if you meet an opposing shin square on while going all out, you're likely to break something. So, I might suggest being more reserved and careful in how you employ it, in much the same way that people who train to strike without gloves are much more reserved and careful about smashing their knuckles into potentially hard, boney targets.
> 
> Open hand strikes exist for a great reason, just like other forms of kicks exist for a great reason. My suggestion is to train with an awareness of what happens when you take off the protective gear, and how you need to change your behavior when you do, so that you think twice about throwing, say, a shin kick with all your might at an angle that your opponent can check it square on.
> 
> ...


I agree. 
This kicking technique when applied in a certain manner I think inherently may just bear some risk of you snapping your leg without some sort of armor/protection. 
There are many ways to use the technique that bear less or no risk of snapping your leg.


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## Blindside (Aug 12, 2021)

I don't do Muay Thai, but does MT suffer from hundreds of broken shins every year given the number of fights that go on in Thailand?  If not, why not?


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## Harry Flannagan (Sep 9, 2021)

Just a note on headgear - it might not be as effective as people thought it to be, which is why amateur boxers don't use it anymore. It has a larger surface area which results in more hits, and the shock to the brain is almost the same. I don't think that the format of MMA should change, and any injury is a professional hazard. If they don't allow to wear spats anymore, why would they allow rash guards?

Fighting is fighting, why do you reckon they need to change it?


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## jmf552 (Sep 9, 2021)

Shins get broken by doing the kick wrong. Bas Rutten has a good video specifically on this. The low kick is different than a Karate' roundhouse. The hip and torso have to to turn almost 90 degrees with the kick. This not only puts more power into the kick, but it causes the impact to be with the side of the shin bone, no the flat of the bone. It is like the difference between hitting a table with a wooden ruler on the edge, which will probably damage the table, versus the flat, which may break the ruler. 

By turning the hip and torso during the kick, it actually makes the kick circle down slightly, creating the right impact. Shin guards encourage bad technique. Also, hard shin guards may cause opponents injuries elsewhere.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 10, 2021)

paitingman said:


> How many legends must break their leg before a safety measure is considered?
> 
> After Conor Mcgregor's leg broke at UFC 264 last night, I saw a few tweets about shin guards almost immediately.
> I know some promotions have used shin guards. And all the pros are surely used to training & grappling with protective gear.
> ...




I'd rather fight with light shinguards on, b/c it's just like wearing gloves to protect my hands.

Main problem is not turning the hips over and landing with the flat of the shin, rather than the bladed side (which is much tougher). When someone checks the kick, they're using the bladed part = bad if it's blade checking flat.  And the checker is bracing for it too while the kicker is more relaxed.

Then there's the problem of the open guard between Orthodox vs. Southpaw causing the kick to go more upwards with a difficult angle to turn the hips over = landing more at the flat. 

Also kicking at the calf lands faster = more chances of the flat making contact as the hips aren't turning over quickly enough as the check usually intercepts it. The Thais rarely target the calf, prob. b/c of this risk.


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2021)

Argus said:


> Not that the kick itself is wrong, but the application. I admit to not training Muay Thai, and hence never using a shin kick, but my impression is that you should be rather careful with how you employ it because, yes, if you meet an opposing shin square on while going all out, you're likely to break something. So, I might suggest being more reserved and careful in how you employ it, in much the same way that people who train to strike without gloves are much more reserved and careful about smashing their knuckles into potentially hard, boney targets.
> 
> Open hand strikes exist for a great reason, just like other forms of kicks exist for a great reason. My suggestion is to train with an awareness of what happens when you take off the protective gear, and how you need to change your behavior when you do, so that you think twice about throwing, say, a shin kick with all your might at an angle that your opponent can check it square on.
> 
> ...



How many fights. And in those fights how many kicks were thrown by these guy that didn't result in a broken leg?
So Anderson Silva for example is

34  11  0

His kickboxing record is 42  17


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## drop bear (Sep 10, 2021)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'd rather fight with light shinguards on, b/c it's just like wearing gloves to protect my hands.
> 
> Main problem is not turning the hips over and landing with the flat of the shin, rather than the bladed side (which is much tougher). When someone checks the kick, they're using the bladed part = bad if it's blade checking flat.  And the checker is bracing for it too while the kicker is more relaxed.
> 
> ...



I have played with this and you can't really hit the calf if they are light on their front leg.

So it wouldn't work as well in Muay Thai.

So MMA stance. Specifically Connors who was defeated with calf kicks.






And just because Nick is a mate of mine here is a classic muay thai stance.


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## jayoliver00 (Sep 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I have played with this and you can't really hit the calf if they are light on their front leg.
> 
> So it wouldn't work as well in Muay Thai.
> 
> ...



You can against the MT stance, but it's too easy to check it = risk to the kicker breaking his leg.


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## paitingman (Sep 10, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I have played with this and you can't really hit the calf if they are light on their front leg.
> 
> So it wouldn't work as well in Muay Thai.
> 
> ...


My experience has different, but my kicks are probably different than yours. I kick the heck out of everyone's front calf, I don't care how light they are on their foot.


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