# Kenpo Sparring



## Sapper6 (May 21, 2007)

Could someone explain Kenpo sparring combinations, ie., B1A1, A2B1, etc...?  Is there something out there that explains this?  I've seen it around quite a bit but still boggled about what all that means.

Thanks a million!


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 22, 2007)

Sapper6 said:


> Could someone explain Kenpo sparring combinations, ie., B1A1, A2B1, etc...? Is there something out there that explains this? I've seen it around quite a bit but still boggled about what all that means.
> 
> Thanks a million!


 
This link should give you a good idea.

http://www.kenponet.com/curriculum/techniques/freestyle.html


----------



## 14 Kempo (May 22, 2007)

Just an observation ... Isn't this a contradiction? They say FREEstyle techniques, but then there are set movements and strikes.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 22, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> Just an observation ... Isn't this a contradiction? They say FREEstyle techniques, but then there are set movements and strikes.


 
In short, NO.  Just like boxing has thousands of combinations but everyone learns the basic combinations of...

1) Jab, Cross

2) Jab, Cross, Hook

3) Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut

....and then mixes them together and throwing in feints, bobs, weaves, shuffles, etc.

Walk then run.  You're reading the walk part and notice it stops at green belt.....does it really STOP or does it become FREE?....


----------



## 14 Kempo (May 22, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Walk then run. You're reading the walk part and notice it stops at green belt.....does it really STOP or does it become FREE?....


 
I would say at green it becomes FREE ... but eventhough not completely accurate, I stick by my original comment ... at the point of learning, although it may be totally necessary, it is not FREE. 

"Let me see you freestyle" ... jab, cross, uppercut ... "No, no ... that should be jab, cross, hook, uppercut!" ... where's the freestyle in that?


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 22, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> I would say at green it becomes FREE ... but eventhough not completely accurate, I stick by my original comment ... at the point of learning, although it may be totally necessary, it is not FREE.
> 
> "Let me see you freestyle" ... jab, cross, uppercut ... "No, no ... that should be jab, cross, hook, uppercut!" ... where's the freestyle in that?


 
Simple reason. Because the techniques are used to train people in the basics required for "Freestyle" sparring.

Same as many of Kenpo's "Self-Defense Techniques" are not actually techniques for use in self defense but are lessons in the basics of self-defense.

The term freestyle is implausible in and of itself as every style/competition has rules, principles, concepts, theories and basic movements. As soon as you introduce any form of structure it is no longer "free". So where is there ever really "freestyle"?

So stand by your original comment, even though not completely accurate, and I'll stand by mine. 'In short, NO." The term merely indicates what purpose those movements serve within the American Kenpo curriculum.  You're debating semantics , which is fine.  But.....where is there ever "freestyle" in anything? What people commonly learn as freestlye is taught with some form of structure which negates the "freeness".

It's not "Let me see you freestyle" ... jab, cross, uppercut ... "No, no ... that should be jab, cross, hook, uppercut!"

It's "lets work this combination "jab, cross, hook, uppercut"

"ok now mix it up: jab, cross, hook, uppercut / jab, hook, cross, uppercut / jab, hook, uppercut, cross"

"ok now spar and apply what you learned about combinations, timing, reactions, reading, guaging distance, etc. "

The lesson isn't in the order of moves. Just like the lesson in boxing isn't in the order of "jab, cross, hook, uppercut".  That's just Who, How and What.  What about When, Where, Why?


----------



## 14 Kempo (May 22, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Simple reason. Because the techniques are used to train people in the basics required for "Freestyle" sparring.
> 
> Same as many of Kenpo's "Self-Defense Techniques" are not actually techniques for use in self defense but are lessons in the basics of self-defense.
> 
> ...


 
OK, I think we actually agree here ... it's just symantics. Either way, we're not far enough apart to make it worthy of an argument.


----------



## Sapper6 (May 22, 2007)

thanks for the link KJJ3.  very informative, but i guess i am still missing something here.  

i think i understand the basemove, first variation/second variation, but it really doesn't distinguish right from left, etc.  

is there a link somewhere out there that has these on vid?


----------



## Doc (May 22, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> I would say at green it becomes FREE ... but eventhough not completely accurate, I stick by my original comment ... at the point of learning, although it may be totally necessary, it is not FREE.
> 
> "Let me see you freestyle" ... jab, cross, uppercut ... "No, no ... that should be jab, cross, hook, uppercut!" ... where's the freestyle in that?



Sir, the term has to do with the ultimate results of the formula exercises. The "Freestyle Formulas" themselves are NOT freestyle, but instead lead to applications when the basics are learned, and used when you actually DO freestyle. Thus the name "Freestyle Formulas."


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 22, 2007)

Sapper6 said:


> thanks for the link KJJ3. very informative, but i guess i am still missing something here.
> 
> i think i understand the basemove, first variation/second variation, but it really doesn't distinguish right from left, etc.
> 
> is there a link somewhere out there that has these on vid?


 

I don't know if anyone has put all the frestyles on video, but that would be a very cool collection (albeit, boring to watch) if they did.

If it exists, James either has it, or will shortly.

opcorn:


----------



## Doc (May 22, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I don't know if anyone has put all the frestyles on video, but that would be a very cool collection (albeit, boring to watch) if they did.
> 
> If it exists, James either has it, or will shortly.
> 
> opcorn:



I have them, and so do others but I don't think anyone even in the commercial system used them in their entirety. That's what they were created for but the complexity and the concept elluded most. If you're in Southern Cal, just go over to Bob White's place and learn.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 22, 2007)

Just something to add to the whole idea here. We learn the self defense techs in a static environment with no real dimensional mix ups. The Free style techs all include a 1, 2, 3, and 4 which quadrupals the number. with the application of your self defense techs on the street you will need to refer to the footmaneuvering skills taught in freestyle for the everchanging story on the street. In fact, its all the Sam Ting.
Sean


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 23, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I don't know if anyone has put all the frestyles on video, but that would be a very cool collection (albeit, boring to watch) if they did.
> 
> If it exists, James either has it, or will shortly.
> 
> opcorn:


 
I have a video of an instructor doing them. I guess youtube and I have work to do.


----------



## King (May 23, 2007)

Hello! I'm just going to post with a boxer's perspective. The term "freestyle sparring" is what you do (the actual act). Combos (combinations of a series of moves that flows together) is what you use. They are separate things. 

You learn technique by practicing drills right? Repetition of punching or kicking  targets to gain proficiency. When you take these punching and kicking out of set drills -- is when they become freestyle. 

Combos exists because they are tried and tested series of movements. They are taught because they are very simple yet highly effective. Not knowing the basic combos means not knowing how to defend against them. So you are basically creating a handicap for yourself by not learning them.

Also you will know when a combo works and when it doesn't during sparring. You'll start paying attention when your head gets pounded and you don't know why. There are combos designed to distract, to open up a defense, set up a counter or basically cause the most amount of damage in a short amount of time. The ability to pick and choose of what to use and when is your freestyle.


----------



## LawDog (May 23, 2007)

Free style is the ability to flow / interact with your opponent without being bound to any restrictive style oriented technique.
Free of Style.
:ultracool


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 23, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Free style is the ability to flow / interact with your opponent without being bound to any restrictive style oriented technique.
> Free of Style.
> :ultracool


They are still bound by agreed upon rules.
Sean


----------



## LawDog (May 23, 2007)

Yes, agreed upon rules, restricted to style, no.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 23, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Yes, agreed upon rules, restricted to style, no.


Unless, of course, one of those agreen upon rules is a style restriction.:ultracool 
Sean


----------



## LawDog (May 23, 2007)

Then free style it is not. Take care and enjoy your training.
:boxing:


----------

