# You opinion/experience with weight training and MA training



## KempoGuy06 (Dec 4, 2006)

I dont know if this has come up before or not but i thought i would ask.

First a little background to the topic: I used to weight train all the time. 5 days a week i was at the gym either lifting weights or doing cardio. Well I ended up seriously agrivating a previous injury and had to stop going. I had to do something to stay active, i didnt want to only run and stuff at the gym because it is boring and i only do it in the first place because its good for the body and it help with recovery after lifting. This is when I found my dojo. I study Shaolin Kempo Karate at Bluegrass Martial Arts in Louisville, KY. I love SKK it is great but something was still missing. So i decided to give the gym a try because my shoulder(injury i mentioned) was feeling better since i started SKK. This was about 3-4 weeks ago when i was a yellow belt. I just tested for my orange belt this past saturday and my instructor told me that my test was one of the best orange belt test he has seen and personally the power and speed of my handstrikes and kicks had improved. He asked me what i had been doing to prepair. I told him about getting back in the gym and about some of my work outs. Which included doing my hand strikes with small weights in my hand 2-5lbs. I have also notice the increase in speed and power that he mentioned. Im going to contine with my workout plan and hopefully i will see more improvements.

So my question to anyone who reads this: Do you have any experience/opinions on this? What advice can you give me/anyone else? 

This may seem a little off but i would like to know so i posted.

B


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## Phadrus00 (Dec 5, 2006)

howdy KempoGuy06!

First of All congrats on your successful grading!  It sounds like you are truly enjoying your Martial Arts studies!

Weight training can definately enhance your martial arts practice as long as you remember what your goals are.  The goals of most Martial Arts include speed, agility, endurance as well as strength.  your weight training program should take that all into consideration and not be skewed towards one over another.  for example it is important to not only develop strength in your muscles but to also cultivate speed in them as well.  You can do many exercises to increase strength but some will tend to develop "slow twitch" muscle fibers moreso than "fast twitch".  Doing a lot of slow reps is great for building definition as is doing negatives but it does tend to promote slower muscle fiber.  

I tend to lift weights with a primarly focus on explosive power, so sets involve a rapid compression and then a normal release.  I do do slower reps on heavier weights (you HAVE to! *grin*) but I let that represent a much smaller portion of weight sets.  Working with smaller weights, doing higher reps with explosive power will definately compliment your Martial Training. 

Regards,

Rob Masson


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 6, 2006)

Phadrus00 said:


> howdy KempoGuy06!
> 
> First of All congrats on your successful grading! It sounds like you are truly enjoying your Martial Arts studies!
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the congrats. I agree totally on the slow reps versus fast ones. To develop my speed i uses weighted pads for my hands, feet, torso and so one. Throwing multiple strikes with the weights on. People sometimes look at me like this wont work but you wouldnt believe the workout you get with as light as 2lbs attached to your hands when you are dealing out over 200 hand strikes(im sure most people do more). Have you tried this? I like the slow reps for like you said deffinition and overall power. The weight training has really cut down on my down time due to some recent injuries during some BJJ rolls, so im thanksful for that. Thanks for the input.

B

P.S.-Where do you study in MA


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## Phadrus00 (Dec 7, 2006)

KG06,

I think doing the Hand Strikes with weights is a great idea..  I haven't tried that recently but I will give it a go next time I am shadow boxing!  Thanks!

I study MMA and Stick Fighting on the South Shore of Boston two nights a week (Weymough to be precise) and then on Sundays I study Tai Chi in West Newton (West of the City).  Are you in the greater Boston Area?

Rob


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 7, 2006)

No im located in Louisville KY, i know that GM Brassard has a school in Boston and i didnt know if you studied there. I am planning a trip to the northeast next summer and plan on vistiting some dojos while im there though. If you are ever down around my town you should stop in.

B


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## Blotan Hunka (Dec 7, 2006)

Punching/kicking with weights is a risky thing for your joints.


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## Brother John (Dec 7, 2006)

KempoGuy06 said:


> To develop my speed i uses weighted pads for my hands, feet, torso and so one. Throwing multiple strikes with the weights on. People sometimes look at me like this wont work but you wouldnt believe the workout you get with as light as 2lbs attached to your hands when you are dealing out over 200 hand strikes(im sure most people do more). Have you tried this? I like the slow reps for like you said deffinition and overall power.



Hey,
just my quick .02 cents here....
Using wrist weights/ankle weights is a good way to go, BUT: Be very careful. We're taught to snap strikes right? Well...with weights, you run a very real risk of hurting your joints and connective tissues! It may be 2 pounds going out, but when you change the velocity by quickly reversing the action....it works like a great deal more weight. Use caution.

Also: I know from experience and from my study of 'exercise physiology' in college.. "Slow reps" has NO different effect than fast reps in regard to 'Definition'. And....faster reps are better to build power, the greatest number of muscle fibers are the type II, red or "Fast Twitch" muscle fibres... they are stimulated MORE by a fast movement (thus the title 'fast twitch') than by slow. BUT: Slow training is Good stuff, especially for conditioning the tendons and ligaments, and it runs a lower risk for injury. "Velocity" training is an advanced technique and should be used SPARINGLY.

Your Brother
John


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## MJS (Dec 7, 2006)

KempoGuy06 said:


> I dont know if this has come up before or not but i thought i would ask.
> 
> First a little background to the topic: I used to weight train all the time. 5 days a week i was at the gym either lifting weights or doing cardio. Well I ended up seriously agrivating a previous injury and had to stop going. I had to do something to stay active, i didnt want to only run and stuff at the gym because it is boring and i only do it in the first place because its good for the body and it help with recovery after lifting. This is when I found my dojo. I study Shaolin Kempo Karate at Bluegrass Martial Arts in Louisville, KY. I love SKK it is great but something was still missing. So i decided to give the gym a try because my shoulder(injury i mentioned) was feeling better since i started SKK. This was about 3-4 weeks ago when i was a yellow belt. I just tested for my orange belt this past saturday and my instructor told me that my test was one of the best orange belt test he has seen and personally the power and speed of my handstrikes and kicks had improved. He asked me what i had been doing to prepair. I told him about getting back in the gym and about some of my work outs. Which included doing my hand strikes with small weights in my hand 2-5lbs. I have also notice the increase in speed and power that he mentioned. Im going to contine with my workout plan and hopefully i will see more improvements.
> 
> ...


 
Weight lifting is always a benefit.  Of course, your workout should be designed for the goals that you want.  Heavy weight/few reps vs. lighter weight/more reps. will of course have different effects.  As for doing punching with weights...I'd be carefull with this, as you don't want to put too much strain on the joints.  If this was something that you wanted to do, I'd stick with the 2lb. weights and perform the strikes slow, not fast.

Mike


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 7, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Punching/kicking with weights is a risky thing for your joints.


 
Yes this is true if it is done wrong. Never go full force if you train with weights while punching and kicking. But if done at a moderate speed it will help with speed, power, joint and muscle strength. It is basically no differnt than doing a bench press with dumbells. Try it with 2-5lb weights and you will see a difference. 

But like blotan says it can be risky if done wrong. as with all weight training ask a professional first to avoid injury. Thanks for the input.

Thanks Brother John and MJS. I do realize we are taught to snap strikes and that could cause problems. I should have mention to use the weights to do the movements to strengthen the muscles and everthing and to be causious about going hard with the strikes. Thanks again for the insight. 

This may not be for everyone i just know that in my case with the injuries i have had it has helped me a lot. 

B


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 7, 2006)

I love to weight lift and see it as a very important overall combative fitness aspect of my martial science training.  Having a good, strong and fit body will only help you if you are ever involved in a violent encounter.


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 7, 2006)

Brother John said:


> Hey,
> just my quick .02 cents here....
> Using wrist weights/ankle weights is a good way to go, BUT: Be very careful. We're taught to snap strikes right? Well...with weights, you run a very real risk of hurting your joints and connective tissues! It may be 2 pounds going out, but when you change the velocity by quickly reversing the action....it works like a great deal more weight. Use caution.
> 
> ...


 
Brother John,

I didnt know that about reps. I always thought that slow reps was better for deffinition and endurance. If im not mistaken it is a 1-2 count. 1 up and 2 down (correct me if im wrong this is how i do it). I was under the impression that if you slowed down the decent of the weight it would have a greater impact because you are using your muscles to controll it. You know what they say "a day is useless if you havent learned something new"

B


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## Brother John (Dec 7, 2006)

KempoGuy06 said:


> Brother John,
> 
> I didnt know that about reps. I always thought that slow reps was better for deffinition and endurance. If im not mistaken it is a 1-2 count. 1 up and 2 down (correct me if im wrong this is how i do it). I was under the impression that if you slowed down the decent of the weight it would have a greater impact because you are using your muscles to controll it. You know what they say "a day is useless if you havent learned something new"
> 
> B


Guess it would help to have a working definition of what "Definition" is in the case of body composition.
Definition is the visual dilineation in the separation between one muscle and another or between a muscle and the connected bones/joints. This has a lot more to do with genetics, diet and cardio work (as MOST definition is a lack of subdermal fat and water) than the manner in which you lift. There are some means of lifting that emphasize "Mass' that will lead to a difficult time getting that muscular separation to show. Bear in mind that overall, "Definition" when considering musculature, is a 'cosmetic' term; having to do with the visible qualities. Slow//fast just doesn't matter as far as "definition" is concerned.

Endurance. That's a different animal, and not just ONE, but several.
Compare muscular endurance to cardiovascular endurance.
I can run two miles w/out too much of a problem.
I can run two miles wearing a 30# weight vest with a BIT more difficulty.
I can run a mile dragging a car tire.....and nearly KEEL OVER at the end.
...it's not the same; yet they are each forms of 'endurance'.
So the things to bear in mind:
LOAD & INTENSITY.
Load is the amount of resistance that the muscles must overcome in a particular movement. IT IS NOT JUST the amount of weight. It also has to do with musculo-skelatal alignment//efficiency. For instance:
I can bench press 360#
...but take that same amount an put me on an inclinded bench press set at about a 30-40 degree angle, and I WILL NOT be able to move that amount of weight. Same muscles involved, the supporting muscle groups are used in a different priority sequence, but the "LOAD" is different because the angle puts my muscles at a Lever-disadvantage. OR the other way to increase load is too increase the amount of weight used. OR another way would be to tie a strong elastic band to the bench and then loop it through the palm of each hand. As I lift the bar further from my chest the Load will increase more and more. ((cool trick for increasing power BTW)) To greatly increase the Load (progressively; according to body recouperation) over a prolonged period of time WILL cause muscular hypertrophy and an ongoing increase in strength.

*INTENSITY: *There are many ways to increase intensity! I won't bore you with the details. But for this discussion, muscular endurance, the ways to increase intensity would be to reduce recouperation time between sets; do more sets and/or do more reps per set. 
Doing a movement slowly is good for conditioning, to a point, but it's not going to do affect your muscles that much more than if you did the full range of motion more times, yet for the same amount of time overall. It has to do with the amount of time that your muscles are under Load. If you do 4 repetitions at it takes you 10-15 seconds per rep, then your muscles were under load for 40-60 seconds. IF I did a good deal MORE reps than you did, but STILL took 40-60 seconds......SAME Difference. ONLY: I went through the entire range of motion, causing my muscles to contract and relax rythmically Several times, while you only did it 4 times.
See..... going slow doesn't affect endurance in any special way.

Just like if I walk for 30 minutes and only go one mile, or jog 30 minutes and go 4 miles....
same amount of time...but who got the better workout?

Just something to think about.
If you want to know more, just ask. (E-mail) we might bore some people here.

Your Brother
John


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## Gufbal1982 (Dec 7, 2006)

hi there.  i actually do weight training in conjuction with martial arts.  just remember not to pack on too much muscle because that takes away from your ability to strike faster.  you can still put on muscle, just don't try to be tooo muscular.  I tend to use weights for a functional movement with the martial arts.  i use the cable cross machine to do punches from a horse stance with...use them to do jabs from a guard stance with it and so much more.  there's a lot you can do with the machines.


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## Brother John (Dec 7, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> hi there.  i actually do weight training in conjuction with martial arts.  just remember not to pack on too much muscle because that takes away from your ability to strike faster.  you can still put on muscle, just don't try to be tooo muscular.  I tend to use weights for a functional movement with the martial arts.  i use the cable cross machine to do punches from a horse stance with...use them to do jabs from a guard stance with it and so much more.  there's a lot you can do with the machines.



Mechanically....
what allows you to thrust your arm out there quickly?

not bone
not nerves (alone)
not sinew
not the joints

MUSCLE

so by your logic, if my muscles are larger/denser and stronger, I move MORE slowly??

hows that work?

Your Brother
John


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## Gufbal1982 (Dec 7, 2006)

Brother John said:


> Mechanically....
> what allows you to thrust your arm out there quickly?
> 
> not bone
> ...


 

Fast twitch muscles.  They are also known as type 2 muscle fibers.  Each person is predisposed genetically to either type 1 or type 2.  Those with a greater percentage of Type II muscle fibers would be more likely to excel at anaerobic events such as a 200 meter dash, or weight lifting. People with high overall musculation and balanced muscle type percentage engage in sports such as rugby or boxing, and often engage on other sports just to increase performance.

If your muscles are too big then your muscle fibers cannot get the length needed in order to induce the fast twitch muscles correctly.  This is my theory though, so please bare that in mind.


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## Brother John (Dec 7, 2006)

Gufbal1982 said:


> Fast twitch muscles.  They are also known as type 2 muscle fibers.  Each person is predisposed genetically to either type 1 or type 2.  Those with a greater percentage of Type II muscle fibers would be more likely to excel at anaerobic events such as a 200 meter dash, or weight lifting. People with high overall musculation and balanced muscle type percentage engage in sports such as rugby or boxing, and often engage on other sports just to increase performance.
> 
> If your muscles are too big then your muscle fibers cannot get the length needed in order to induce the fast twitch muscles correctly.  This is my theory though, so please bare that in mind.


I honestly don't want to seem rude sir, but your theory on physiology is way off.
Humans all have the same number of type I and type II muscle fibres. There are some variables in mitochondria volume or ATP recovery rate, and this may have SOME bearing on wether a persons muscles will have a tendency toward high endurance or high strength. But I have the same number of Type I and Type II at 34 years of age and 225Lbs as my 6 year old daughter does at 46Lbs and my 75 year old father at 165Lbs. 

Muscle size has NOTHING to do with muscle activation or recruitment. Nil.
The OLD superstition about being "Muscle-Bound" is Pure myth. If a person uses a FULL range of motion throughout their weight training processes and pays even minimal attention to a few stretching exercises on even a minimal basis, flexibility is Not an issue. NOW: If you are talking about Steroid abusers who's muscles are Gorged with blood...yes, their own muscles can get in the way of fluid motion. But they'd first have to make themselves Freaks....(and a great many of them, sadly, DO exactly that). But this MUST NOT be confused with someone following a genuine weight training regimen.

Heavy lifting puts a muscle under greater load and causes a muscle to hypertrophy..(GROW)..and they thereby become stronger and BETTER able to recruit their muscle spindles, which will eventually mature to the point that their energy reserves will replenish at a greater rate.

Endurance lifting, moderate weight for Higher reps/sets....will affect the muscles energy reserve replenishment MORE, and hypertrophy Less...

It's as simple as that.


Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Dec 7, 2006)

In case it's not clear:
Muscles are composed of aprox. 1/3rd Type I
and 2/3rds Type II (Fast Twitch) muscle fibers...

everyone.


Your Brother
John


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## MeatWad2 (Dec 8, 2006)

Dude, my physiology book says the same thing as Gufbal's post about humans being predisposed to genetically having a little more type 1 or type 2 muscle fibers.  are you a doctor by any chance?


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## MeatWad2 (Dec 8, 2006)

Brother John said:


> I honestly don't want to seem rude sir, but your theory on physiology is way off.
> Humans all have the same number of type I and type II muscle fibres. There are some variables in mitochondria volume or ATP recovery rate, and this may have SOME bearing on wether a persons muscles will have a tendency toward high endurance or high strength. But I have the same number of Type I and Type II at 34 years of age and 225Lbs as my 6 year old daughter does at 46Lbs and my 75 year old father at 165Lbs.
> 
> Muscle size has NOTHING to do with muscle activation or recruitment. Nil.
> ...


 
Ever seen a body builder try to walk or punch?  It's slow and funny...


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## MeatWad2 (Dec 8, 2006)

Brother John said:


> In case it's not clear:
> Muscles are composed of aprox. 1/3rd Type I
> and 2/3rds Type II (Fast Twitch) muscle fibers...
> 
> ...


 
Here's what my physiology book says about Type 1 and Type 2 muscle fibers:

"Type I
Type I muscle fibers (slow-oxidative fibers) use primarily cellular respiration and, as a result, have relatively high endurance. To support their high-oxidative metabolism, these muscle fibers typically have lots of mitochondria and myoglobin, and thus appear red or what is typically termed "dark" meat in poultry. Type I muscle fibers are typically found in muscles of animals that require endurance, such as chicken leg muscles or the wing muscles of migrating birds (e.g. geese).

Type II
Type II muscle fibers use primarily anaerobic metabolism and have relatively low endurance. These muscle fibers are typically used during tasks requiring short bursts of strength, such as sprints or weightlifting. Type II muscle fibers cannot sustain contractions for significant lengths of time, and are typically found in the white meat (e.g., the breast) of chicken. There are two sub-classes of type II muscle fibers, type IIa (Fast-Oxidative) and IIb (Fast-Glycolytic). The Type IIa fast-oxidative fibers actually also appear red, due to their high content of myoglobin and mitochondria. Type IIb (Fast-Glycolytic) tire the fastest, and are the prevalent type in sedentary individuals. These fibers appear white histologically, due to their low oxidative demand, manifested by the lack of myoglobulin and mitochondria (relative to the Type I and Type IIa fibers). _Some_ research suggests that these subtypes can switch with training to some degree. The biochemical difference between the three types of muscle fibers is their myosin heavy chains.

These types of muscles are in the categories of skeletal muscle"

While Gufbal's theory may be off a tad, he/she isn't too far off because most people will go overboard and if i read correctly, that's what he/she was saying.


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 8, 2006)

Brother John thanks for the insight. That actually helped a lot. On a side note you know anything about joint(tendon/ligament) rehabilitation? (you can PM me)

Ok I dont not agree with theses theorys about not having to much muscle because it will affect the speed of your punches. Im 6'4" and 260lbs and i pack a pretty fast punch. Im at the gym 5 times a week and have gained some size and strength all the while my strikes are faster and more powerful. Plus this genetically predisposed crap is garbage. You have the will power and mind to become what you want. If you live by theories that everyone is predisposed to something than it will only limit you ability to become what you want. Sorry to get philisophical on you. 

B


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## Brother John (Dec 8, 2006)

MeatWad2 said:


> Here's what my physiology book says about Type 1 and Type 2 muscle fibers:
> 
> "Type I
> Type I muscle fibers (slow-oxidative fibers) use primarily cellular respiration and, as a result, have relatively high endurance. To support their high-oxidative metabolism, these muscle fibers typically have lots of mitochondria and myoglobin, and thus appear red or what is typically termed "dark" meat in poultry. Type I muscle fibers are typically found in muscles of animals that require endurance, such as chicken leg muscles or the wing muscles of migrating birds (e.g. geese).
> ...


Nothing in what your physiology book states contradicts anything I've said here. But I thank you for sharing it. I've read the studies that suggest that Type IIa fibers can be made to change to type I, but Type II cannot...and that's the majority of your muscle mass. So some change can be affected, but it won't be drastic.
Gufbal's theory wasn't a "tad" off...it was OFF
He stated


> Each person is predisposed genetically to either type 1 or type 2.


People are not predisposed to one type *OR* the other. It is roughly a one to three ratio in _Everyone_, give or take a _Tiny _fraction *(scientists differ on how tiny of a fraction, but in general...if it's enough to make THAT much of a difference, it's not within the normal range of genetic fluctuation: ie; it'd be a mutation...not that that NEVER occurs)* here or there, plus the stated ability to alter the Type IIa fibers through intensive musculo-endurance training. Other than this, it's not really the muscles responsibility to make a person an "endurance" athlete, that has more to do with number and volume of mitochondria *(which can have a greater degree of flux than muscle type, according to most research)* and the body's ability to execute the Kreb's Cycle, replacing glycogen and ATP *(the muscles energy source)* faster and more efficiently. THAT has a pronounced impact on endurance and can be Greatly affected through training.


> most people will go overboard



...whos this "Most People" group your talking about, and how do You know so much about them?? :mst:  hahaha....

No.
*Most* people do not 'go overboard'...

that'd be a portion of the "BodyBuilders", Pro, amateur and enthusiast , a great many of whom take controlled substances to over-ride their bodies somatotypic muscular thresholds and endanger their kidneys and livers. 
A normal person (being a person who's body chemistry is pretty much standard, ie; no synthetic hormones) who pushes their body to the limit and seeks to progressively increase strength and muscle mass, and uses good technique and does at least a little flexibility maintenance work WILL NOT get muscle bound and will do nothing but Improve their ability to Quickly/Rapidly and repeatedly contract their muscles over a FULL range of motion.
Period.
Limited range of motion lends itself toward injury! Why would the NFL trainers make HEAVY weight training such a main staple in their athletes if it in anyway limited mobility and ran a greater risk of making them suceptible to injury? 
It is a sterio-type, this 'muscle bound' myth. It's often foisted by people who don't train for strength at all or have no knowledge of exercise physiology. IF people perpetuate this myth then some may listen to and believe it (as obviously some here have) and then some may not gain the good they might have through proper weight training. 
...and that's really too bad.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Dec 8, 2006)

MeatWad2 said:


> Dude, my physiology book says the same thing as Gufbal's post about humans being predisposed to genetically having a little more type 1 or type 2 muscle fibers.  are you a doctor by any chance?


No, Dude, I'm not.
...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express...
:uhyeah:

..why?
Do I Need credentials to be taken seriously?
If so, I have some. I generally share that with people who need to know.

I agree with your physiology book, just like I agreed with Gufbal's...
and they both agree with me.
Humans ARE 





> predisposed to genetically having a *little* more type 1 or type 2 muscle fibers


..I emphasized the word 'little' to make a point.
It's little, not a lot.
...and as I just pointed out in my last post, Gufbal's own physiology book doesn't agree with HIM
humans aren't predisposed to have either TypeI OR Type II,
it's roughly a 1 to 3 ratio, give or take a *little*.
nothing more.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Dec 8, 2006)

MeatWad2 said:


> Ever seen a body builder try to walk or punch?  It's slow and funny...


That's your perception, dude.

...and I don't think we are discussing what happens when a steroid abuser tries to walk or punch. When you have the muscle mass of a wooly mamoth on the frame of a mortal human...yeah........it's rediculous.

still: Ever see a "bodybuilder" wrap their arms around a persons torso and "Python" it?
It's devastating
..and not funny.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Dec 8, 2006)

OH YEAH....

other proven facts about weight training:

Proper weight training increases 'effective range of motion'.
It increases vascularity, thus enhancing recourperation for strenuous effort.
It enhances general coordination and spatial awareness leading too...
It increases ones sense of balance.
Developed musculature is a great deal more resilient to impact.
It assists in blood transportation through PHA (Periphrial Heart Action, secondary blood pumper/mover)
It contributes to a higher metabolism
It increases the endorphines used for healing and vigorous work as well as a brighter mood and better concentration.

I'd Love it if anyone would argue against these points.

OH YEAH, two more:

Boxers use weight training, because it makes their punches STRONGER and FASTER!
A lot of women find men with developed muscularity (NOT steroid freaks) to be more pleasing to the eye and the Touch than men with soft, shallow muscles!!
...as my wife says:
"A Hard man is _GOOD_ to find!" 

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Dec 8, 2006)

KempoGuy06 said:


> Brother John thanks for the insight. That actually helped a lot. On a side note you know anything about joint(tendon/ligament) rehabilitation? (you can PM me)
> B


My pleasure my Kempo Brother.
It's my kinda thang....

Yes, I do know about joint rehabilitation.
Please feel free to go to my public profile here on martial talk and  use the link to send me an E-mail. I'd be glad to tell you what I can. 

Your Brother
John


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## KempoGuy06 (Dec 8, 2006)

Brother John said:


> My pleasure my Kempo Brother.
> It's my kinda thang....
> 
> Yes, I do know about joint rehabilitation.
> ...


 
Brother John:

A message has been sent.

B


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