# Competition format for WC



## Eric_H (Jun 16, 2015)

Hey guys,

I've been thinking a lot about how WC is going to survive into the future, and as we've often lamented on this forum, and others: there's no unified way of competing that demonstrates WC skill. Personally, I've tried Lei Tai/Sanda and while fun as hell, it didn't really demonstrate much of WC. Had far more overlap with Muay Thai than anything else. 

After that went and tried Chi Sao competitions and found that to be an utter waste of money and time. Having my knuckles up in front of someone's undefended face and they tap me on the chest underneath the punch I'm not allowed to connect with and the hosting school wins again. Great representation of WC bullsh!t.

So what's a competition that allows us to build/show/compete with WC focused skill? Judo has Randori, MT has kickboxing matches, BJJ has grappling comps, even the Jian fencing guys have a workable format figured out - what do we got/why is it so hard?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 16, 2015)

IMO, don't ruin a good thing. As soon as something becomes "competition" it becomes something other than it really is...it is no longer Wing Chun it is competition Wing Chun and since the Chi Sao competition was such a great success , that right there should tell you what a Wing Chun competition would end up being like


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## mograph (Jun 16, 2015)

... and the "competition WC" schools begin to outnumber the "martial WC" schools?

Not that there are a lot of WC schools anyway ...


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## Blindside (Jun 16, 2015)

So what about the ruleset of MMA doesn't allow WC to show its stuff in a competition format?


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## Eric_H (Jun 16, 2015)

Blindside said:


> So what about the ruleset of MMA doesn't allow WC to show its stuff in a competition format?



This is a dead horse I really don't want to keep beating, but for my 2 cents: the WC responses to a lot of wrestling done at speed are more likely to cause injury. For my money, if you're going to compete in MMA you've gotta learn grappling to have an effective counter under that ruleset. At that point you're not really testing WC ability, but bending to the skills most suited to the format. Obviously, others here disagree with me on this point. 

I suppose I'm looking for something more akin to Randori, where you compete with the abilities integral to the art but without the larger set of concerns closer to actual fighting.


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2015)

I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move _Ip Man II_, but toned down for safety.  How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below. 

Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but _not_ totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a _loss _since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.

This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also,  it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 16, 2015)

geezer said:


> Like something based on the "table-top" fighting......How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground,...



Ahhhhh.....muifa training. Brings back sweet (painful) memories. haha. Ours was about 18-24 inches high. No pads on floor though. Hurt like heck if you got thrown off, kicked off, punched off, swept off, etc.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2015)

geezer said:


> I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move _Ip Man II_, but toned down for safety.  How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below.
> 
> Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but _not_ totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a _loss _since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.
> 
> This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also,  it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.



You notice the not for sport rumblings already?

Anyhow something like caged muay Thai with some tweeks.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2015)




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## Mephisto (Jun 17, 2015)

I've thought about the same thing for filipino martial arts. panantukan or filipino dirty boxing has a similiar dilemma as wc. 90% of panantukan videos around are guys doing flow drills or compliant drills but we don't really see sparring, and any sparring we do see just resembles bad boxibg with an odd elbow thrown in here and there. The best way I see to practice application of these skills is a sparring format that favors skills cultivated in the art. judo has done things like this from what I've heard, they add new rules that may make the art less realistic but it forces judo technique and limits say a bjj or wrestler from sweeping the competition. 

What I've come up with for FMA is standup sparring, it could apply to WC also as Wc is akin to dirty boxing. you wear a boxng head gear with a plastic face cage so elbows can be safely thrown at the amateur level and for regular training, MMA gloves, and mouth piece. Rules; pretty much a boxing format with elbows and more permissive clinching rules, perhaps a time limit to avoid excessive clinching, standing submissions only with possible limits on available submission (no neck cranks?), kicks must be below the knee (mainly employed as sweeps, this is in accord with most filipino martial arts that avoid higher kicks due to use of weapons and also to keep Muay thai or other kickers from dominating competition), other possible restrictions would be limitations on throws to keep judo guys from dominating, and no groundwork but possibly points awarded for putting an opponent down.

The idea is to create a rulset where your art will flourish and other arts will be restricted. Disallow any techniques that aren't regularly trained in your art. Know what your art is good at and promote specialty in that area, make others play your game and don't take them on in their specialty. Later after a couple of generations of refined competition, fighters will see the value of the skillset and apply it to more permissive rulesets like MMA. The current most popular arts used in MMA (Muay thai, bjj, judo, wrestling, boxing, ect) all have the benefit of generations of competition in their specialty. Although we're seeing other arts make their way into MMA a method like I've mentioned might make the path a little easier. The jump from competitive Muay thai to MMA is much smaller than the jump from a non competing art like WC to MMA. Competitive arts have a pool of athletic and trained fighters to develop each other's skill, where arts like wc may have more people who train as a hobby or casually. 

I think the op has a good idea. But you run into problems with the anti-sport crowd and traditionalists that favor aesthetics over ability.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 17, 2015)

geezer said:


> I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move _Ip Man II_, but toned down for safety.  How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below.
> 
> Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but _not_ totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a _loss _since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.
> 
> This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also,  it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.



This would be awesome! (even if WC can often end up looking scrappy under pressure to untrained eyes since it is quick bursts of strikes and deflections). Would be even better if against other systems and not just WC against WC, could be a shot in the arm for WC training to end facing many types of fighters.
There would have to be control, and certain rules to prevent injury for sure, likely easier said than done though. No eye strikes or groin kicks would not be too difficult to adhere too, but typical WC jamming kicks done with any gusto could seriously hurt a challenger's knees, for example. Are they allowed to attack the legs or knees head on in the UFC? Pardon my ignorance to the ruleset; it seems every time I've tuned in I don't see much jamming, mostly Muay Thai kicks to side of the leg.
I like Geezer's idea regarding time limits on the ground, though points awarded for successful takedowns or throws makes perfect sense.
The danger I could see though, if it got to heavily technical in how it rewarded points, or if there were TOO many safeguards in place, it could encourage competitors to do things that contradict self defense principles like some TKD and Karate competitions have done the way of over the years.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 17, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Rules; pretty much a boxing format with elbows and more permissive clinching rules, perhaps a time limit to avoid excessive clinching, standing submissions only with possible limits on available submission (no neck cranks?), kicks must be below the knee (mainly employed as sweeps, this is in accord with most filipino martial arts that avoid higher kicks due to use of weapons and also to keep Muay thai or other kickers from dominating competition), other possible restrictions would be limitations on throws to keep judo guys from dominating, and no groundwork but possibly points awarded for putting an opponent down.
> 
> The idea is to create a rulset where your art will flourish and other arts will be restricted. Disallow any techniques that aren't regularly trained in your art. Know what your art is good at and promote specialty in that area, make others play your game and don't take them on in their specialty. Later after a couple of generations of refined competition, fighters will see the value of the skillset and apply it to more permissive rulesets like MMA. The current most popular arts used in MMA (Muay thai, bjj, judo, wrestling, boxing, ect) all have the benefit of generations of competition in their specialty. Although we're seeing other arts make their way into MMA a method like I've mentioned might make the path a little easier. The jump from competitive Muay thai to MMA is much smaller than the jump from a non competing art like WC to MMA. Competitive arts have a pool of athletic and trained fighters to develop each other's skill, where arts like wc may have more people who train as a hobby or casually.
> 
> I think the op has a good idea. But you run into problems with the anti-sport crowd and traditionalists that favor aesthetics over ability.



Wouldn't that be an artificual advantage for WC and other arts that favor hand strikes by limiting the key strengths from other styles (kicking and throwing)?? If a WC person can't face or defend against a skilled kicker or a judoka looking to set up throws, then that is a deficiency is it not? Rather than encourage people to be more well rounded fighters, wouldnt that just further encourage a narrow skillset  I ask not from a super experienced WC perspective, more out of idealism than anything.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 17, 2015)

geezer said:


> I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move _Ip Man II_, but toned down for safety.  How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below.
> 
> Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but _not_ totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a _loss _since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.
> 
> This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also,  it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.



They have something very much like this on mainland already, its called Sanshou...although being strictly Wing Chun it might look different.... or you could just bring back old school Lei Tai matches... elevated fight area, no rules and a lot of nasty fights....not recommended by me either

I just can't get behind something like Sports Wing Chun, I have see what it did to Judo, TKD and Taiji push hands and none of it is good


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## Mephisto (Jun 17, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> Wouldn't that be an artificual advantage for WC and other arts that favor hand strikes by limiting the key strengths from other styles (kicking and throwing)?? If a WC person can't face or defend against a skilled kicker or a judoka looking to set up throws, then that is a deficiency is it not? Rather than encourage people to be more well rounded fighters, wouldnt that just further encourage a narrow skillset  I ask not from a super experienced WC perspective, more out of idealism than anything.


Perhaps, but you could say the same for boxing, judo, or Muay thai ect. Rather than try to throw wc in against specialists against other styles wc needs to develop its own competitive game. Boxing doesn't try to use its techniques against grapplers, boxers know their specialty and go to other experts to expand and fill in holes in their game. The same should be for wc, wc should get good in close range striking in its specific skillset against other high level competitors. The format I've described is more permissive and closer to reality than a boxing ruleset yet boxers are still able to apply their craft to MMA, wc should be able to do the same. Just like the early ufc was somewhat stacked in favor of bjj, no penalties for stalling on the ground or using the guard position from the back, which we don't see in wrestling or judo as much to my knowledge.

When reality is considered you need to have a strong area and be able to apply it to resisting attackers. There are plenty of videos of boxers handling thugs. The boxers despite training a restrictive sport do well because they are specialized and know how to apply their game to an aggressive attacker. If they are good enough they can hit and stay mobile and avoid a takedown, it may not always work but it's a decent strategy. Imo know where your art excels and specialize there.


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## Mephisto (Jun 17, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> This would be awesome! (even if WC can often end up looking scrappy under pressure to untrained eyes since it is quick bursts of strikes and deflections). Would be even better if against other systems and not just WC against WC, could be a shot in the arm for WC training to end facing many types of fighters.
> There would have to be control, and certain rules to prevent injury for sure, likely easier said than done though. No eye strikes or groin kicks would not be too difficult to adhere too, but typical WC jamming kicks done with any gusto could seriously hurt a challenger's knees, for example. Are they allowed to attack the legs or knees head on in the UFC? Pardon my ignorance to the ruleset; it seems every time I've tuned in I don't see much jamming, mostly Muay Thai kicks to side of the leg.
> I like Geezer's idea regarding time limits on the ground, though points awarded for successful takedowns or throws makes perfect sense.
> The danger I could see though, if it got to heavily technical in how it rewarded points, or if there were TOO many safeguards in place, it could encourage competitors to do things that contradict self defense principles like some TKD and Karate competitions have done the way of over the years.


Kicks to the knee are allowed in the UFC. Surprisingly a single kick doesn't explode a fighters knee. A little research on the subject forced me to change my thoughts on knee kicks, there's still potential for injury especially against an untrained fighter but it's not the holy grail of self defense that some think it is. Here's a thread on the subject from bullshido:
Kicking the knee joints in mma


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 17, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Perhaps, but you could say the same for boxing, judo, or Muay thai ect. Rather than try to throw wc in against specialists against other styles wc needs to develop its own competitive game. Boxing doesn't try to use its techniques against grapplers, boxers know their specialty and go to other experts to expand and fill in holes in their game. The same should be for wc, wc should get good in close range striking in its specific skillset against other high level competitors. The format I've described is more permissive and closer to reality than a boxing ruleset yet boxers are still able to apply their craft to MMA, wc should be able to do the same. Just like the early ufc was somewhat stacked in favor of bjj, no penalties for stalling on the ground or using the guard position from the back, which we don't see in wrestling or judo as much to my knowledge.
> 
> When reality is considered you need to have a strong area and be able to apply it to resisting attackers. There are plenty of videos of boxers handling thugs. The boxers despite training a restrictive sport do well because they are specialized and know how to apply their game to an aggressive attacker. If they are good enough they can hit and stay mobile and avoid a takedown, it may not always work but it's a decent strategy. Imo know where your art excels and specialize there.



But to play devils advocate.... since WC practictioners generally believe or preach that IS a relatively complete system, shouldnt a competition showcasing it encompass all ranges that could be reasonably found in a empty hand self defense situation? If a ruleset were to favor close range striking by restricting kicks and throws, then it would not be doing that.
I'm not throwing stones, I love WC/WT, just pointing out that if we believe it is a competent self defense art then it is denifitely counterproductive to want competition in the same vein as Judo, wrestling, and boxing with very narrow rules. Ever seen a wrestler sit on his back in guard and the standing opponent HAS to engage them? How well would that work in a real fight?
Rules that are too favorable would create a bunch of slappy-hand WC practicioners that train even LESS to defend against takedowns and powerful kickers imo, but still puffed up egos because they excelled under the competition rules.


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## Mephisto (Jun 17, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> But to play devils advocate.... since WC practictioners generally believe or preach that IS a relatively complete system, shouldnt a competition showcasing it encompass all ranges that could be reasonably found in a empty hand self defense situation? If a ruleset were to favor close range striking by restricting kicks and throws, then it would not be doing that.
> I'm not throwing stones, I love WC/WT, just pointing out that if we believe it is a competent self defense art then it is denifitely counterproductive to want competition in the same vein as Judo, wrestling, and boxing with very narrow rules. Ever seen a wrestler sit on his back in guard and the standing opponent HAS to engage them? How well would that work in a real fight?
> Rules that are too favorable would create a bunch of slappy-hand WC practicioners that train even LESS to defend against takedowns and powerful kickers imo, but still puffed up egos because they excelled under the competition rules.


Yeah, I'd hate for it to go the way of competitive tkd. Some of the high level tkd guys seem pretty formidable but at local comps it's a lot of slappy foot tag, but regulations on contact level seem to be to blame for that. WC guys can think it's an all inclusive system but it's not. If it were WC guys could enter MMA and dominate but they can't currently do that. The op asked questions about wc and I gave my thoughts as I've considered something similiar for the FMA I train. The guys that think wc is the perfect all inclusive system can continue their delusion or they can enter MMA and prove everyone wrong. The next best thing it to develop a sport that emphasize and develops the arts strong points, if you get enough experience applying it against other high level fighters a wc guy might just have a chance a Muay thai or judo guy. Just like a boxer who can hit and move well may be able to avoid bing tied up by a grappler (still debatabke that he could pull it off against a high level grappler). Any competition will never be reality, any trainung in the school/dojo/gym will never be reality. There are always limitations in place you have to accept that and choose what limitations you can apply while still bing able to reach a high level in your art. That's one reason I think Kano had such success with judo, he made jujutsu safe to train with a resisting partner and this his guys were able to gain experience in handling aggression, therefore they were able to dominate other schools that trained with less restrictions.


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## Eric_H (Jun 17, 2015)

> That's one reason I think Kano had such success with judo, he made jujutsu safe to train with a resisting partner and this his guys were able to gain experience in handling aggression, therefore they were able to dominate other schools that trained with less restrictions.



I suppose thinking on it more, that's what I'm trying to get at. A subset of WC skills that can be trained to a high level across different schools and worked on/competed with as common ground.



> I'm not throwing stones, I love WC/WT, just pointing out that if we believe it is a competent self defense art then it is denifitely counterproductive to want competition in the same vein as Judo, wrestling, and boxing with very narrow rules. Ever seen a wrestler sit on his back in guard and the standing opponent HAS to engage them? How well would that work in a real fight?



I think as long as you are honest about what any training is intended to do, it's not a bad thing to have a competition that only focuses on one area of the art, or multiple types of competition that focus on individual areas. Taking a subset that can be trained to a high level can be of benefit, i think, as long as it's not viewed as the end-all-be-all of the art. 

@Xue Sheng - I'm not really familiar with what's happened in Taiji circles, I'm still pretty young in that art (5 years now i think?) What are you referring to in terms of push hands being made a competition. What's happened there that gives you a negative opinion?


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 17, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Yeah, I'd hate for it to go the way of competitive tkd. Some of the high level tkd guys seem pretty formidable but at local comps it's a lot of slappy foot tag, but regulations on contact level seem to be to blame for that. WC guys can think it's an all inclusive system but it's not. If it were WC guys could enter MMA and dominate but they can't currently do that. The op asked questions about wc and I gave my thoughts as I've considered something similiar for the FMA I train. The guys that think wc is the perfect all inclusive system can continue their delusion or they can enter MMA and prove everyone wrong. The next best thing it to develop a sport that emphasize and develops the arts strong points, if you get enough experience applying it against other high level fighters a wc guy might just have a chance a Muay thai or judo guy. Just like a boxer who can hit and move well may be able to avoid bing tied up by a grappler (still debatabke that he could pull it off against a high level grappler). Any competition will never be reality, any trainung in the school/dojo/gym will never be reality. There are always limitations in place you have to accept that and choose what limitations you can apply while still bing able to reach a high level in your art. That's one reason I think Kano had such success with judo, he made jujutsu safe to train with a resisting partner and this his guys were able to gain experience in handling aggression, therefore they were able to dominate other schools that trained with less restrictions.


I see your point. I just think its watering down the art to deliberately limit the need for kicking and throwing defense. Those are part of "good" WC.  Accounting for differing skill levels, if I can't use WC princples and tools to defend against a kicker or a judoka trying to set up a throw because WC in fact lacks those tools, then I took up the wrong art. If I have to work HARDER to defend certain things because WC doesn't focus on it as much, that I am ok with (if that distinction makes sense and might be what you were getting at to some degree). 
Such open competition would be a real shot in the arm for some WC guys training though. I don't think watching WC against WC would be very exciting.


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## Blindside (Jun 17, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I see your point. I just think its watering down the art to deliberately limit the need for kicking and throwing defense. Those are part of "good" WC.  Accounting for differing skill levels, if I can't use WC princples and tools to defend against a kicker or a judoka trying to set up a throw because WC in fact lacks those tools, then I took up the wrong art. If I have to work HARDER to defend certain things because WC doesn't focus on it as much, that I am ok with (if that distinction makes sense and might be what you were getting at to some degree).
> Such open competition would be a real shot in the arm for some WC guys training though. I don't think watching WC against WC would be very exciting.


 
Actually in reading the back and forth between you and Mephisto, the WC and panantukan/panamot/dirty boxing rule set could be the same.

I think it is reasonable to keep it to a standing striking ruleset with fairly open rules, but then why wouldn't you just use something like Muay Thai rules with MMA gloves?  Allows elbows, allows clinch, allows throws but no ground game.  I'd watch it.


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## Mephisto (Jun 17, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I see your point. I just think its watering down the art to deliberately limit the need for kicking and throwing defense. Those are part of "good" WC.  Accounting for differing skill levels, if I can't use WC princples and tools to defend against a kicker or a judoka trying to set up a throw because WC in fact lacks those tools, then I took up the wrong art. If I have to work HARDER to defend certain things because WC doesn't focus on it as much, that I am ok with (if that distinction makes sense and might be what you were getting at to some degree).
> Such open competition would be a real shot in the arm for some WC guys training though. I don't think watching WC against WC would be very exciting.


Well boxing against boxing and judo against judo seems to be entertaining enough. I think the only way a wc guy is gonna be able to overcome getting taken down is if he has superior mobility and striking to a grappler, not anti grappling which is pretty much just very basic grappling. It might work against an inferior or inexperienced grappler but at the competitive level it's almost certain that if a grappler wants to he can close distance as get the takedown, that's why we have yet to see a pure striker with little to no grappling succeed in recent MMA. Just the opposite would be true for a kicker, the wc guy would have to be able to stay inside kicking range or risk getting his legs demolished. Either way the wc guy training in a specific wc rule set will refine his approach. Wc is not equipped to handle experienced grapplers or kickers like we see in Muay thai, yet. You can speculate about in the street I'm not gonna go there, but in the ring wc is surely not able to stand alone. Sorry to rain on your parade, people thought the same about boxing prior to MMA, but they had to grow up and realize there art was not in fact perfect. Boxing is still a great art and still is popular, wc has the potential to be. But you can't obviously win in MMA with wc alone. Imo wc needs to develop its strengths and forget about its weaknesses, it's never gonna be able to stop a judoka or grappler alone, without a competitive culture of fighters WC guys are gonna have a hard time with kickboxers.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 17, 2015)

I think a ruleset that had very short time limits for being on the ground like Geezer previously mentioned would discourage using the takedown simply as a means to turn it into a ground fight, or prolonged grappling to achieve submission, like we see within the UFC (from my limited exposure to it). I'd like to see what happens in an environment where a WC practicioner would have to deal with someone trying to take advantage of a clinch or trying to shoot in, but a ruleset that did not artificially create incentive for people to do it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 17, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> @Xue Sheng - I'm not really familiar with what's happened in Taiji circles, I'm still pretty young in that art (5 years now i think?) What are you referring to in terms of push hands being made a competition. What's happened there that gives you a negative opinion?



First it is wrestling not push hands, they will also tell you push hands only move forward and backwards in a straight line when traditionally it move forward, backwards, to the right, left, circles and angles. Also it is not fighting it is a learning tool for learning how to apply Taiji for fighting.


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## Blindside (Jun 17, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I think a ruleset that had very short time limits for being on the ground like Geezer previously mentioned would discourage using the takedown simply as a means to turn it into a ground fight, or prolonged grappling to achieve submission, like we see within the UFC (from my limited exposure to it). I'd like to see what happens in an environment where a WC practicioner would have to deal with someone trying to take advantage of a clinch or trying to shoot in, but a ruleset that did not artificially create incentive for people to do it.


 
What incentive is there for taking someone down if you don't want it to turn into a ground fight?  Maybe you could fight on a fairly hard surface to incentive takedowns with big hard slams.  Also fun to watch.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 17, 2015)

Blindside said:


> What incentive is there for taking someone down if you don't want it to turn into a ground fight?  Maybe you could fight on a fairly hard surface to incentive takedowns with big hard slams.  Also fun to watch.


Exactly.  If a ruleset didnt favor getting someone into submission on the ground via drawn out ground fight, then fighters simply wouldn't go for the takedown as a primary offense. Time limits for being on the ground would accomplish that. Then the takedowns would still happen when striking fails, or as means of earning points, but not as the setup for a fight-ending submission. WC has a number of grabs, sweeps, etc to send someone to the ground without necessarily following them there.


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## geezer (Jun 17, 2015)

Blindside said:


> What incentive is there for taking someone down if you don't want it to turn into a ground fight?  Maybe you could fight on a fairly hard surface to incentive takedowns with big hard slams.  Also fun to watch.



Yeah! _Fun_ to watch, but also should be worth some points since it's _very useful_ in actual fighting. Think, shuai chiao. You slam someone hard into the ground and that can end a fight. In this format, there's no reason to continue into a groundfight. That's what grappling competition is for.The five second follow up would give you time to drop a knee on them (_gwai ma_) and ad on a "finish" combo or follow them down and mount them, etc.

If you can execute a takedown or throw, and then establish _control_ in the five-second follow-up you definitely deserve points. Sort of like a wrestler getting points for the takedown.


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## Blindside (Jun 17, 2015)

The san shou ruleset is one of my favorites to watch, good standup fighting, fun throws.  You'd have to play with the points a bit if you didn't want to favor the throws too much.  And you'd have to add elbows back in to add some variety to that clinch game.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2015)

Blindside said:


> What incentive is there for taking someone down if you don't want it to turn into a ground fight?  Maybe you could fight on a fairly hard surface to incentive takedowns with big hard slams.  Also fun to watch.



If you had a look at the cage Thai there are plenty of takedowns. It just shows the fighter is strong. And there are standing counts if you collapse a guy with a strike.

You could score punches on the deck. While doing limited ground time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 17, 2015)

Blindside said:


> What incentive is there for taking someone down if you don't want it to turn into a ground fight?


if you try to "smash the back of your opponent's head" on the hard ground and let the earth to do the punch for you. This is effective if you have one hand on your opponent's forehead while the other hand behind his neck.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> if you try to "smash the back of your opponent's head" on the hard ground and let the earth to do the punch for you. This is effective if you have one hand on your opponent's forehead while the other hand behind his neck.



In competition you may want to discourage spiking people.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> In competition you may want to discourage spiking people.


You can always pretend that you lose your balance.


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## Jake104 (Jun 18, 2015)

I just want to fight! I don't care what the rules are. I will scratch eye balls out if I have too! . Put me in coach! Luckily I'm not a felon or I'd fight in Felony fights 



... I'm a thug, but only a misdemeanor  jr. thug. So luckily for them they got off by a technicality!


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## Jake104 (Jun 19, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I've been thinking a lot about how WC is going to survive into the future, and as we've often lamented on this forum, and others: there's no unified way of competing that demonstrates WC skill. Personally, I've tried Lei Tai/Sanda and while fun as hell, it didn't really demonstrate much of WC. Had far more overlap with Muay Thai than anything else.
> 
> ...







What about this style of competition? The TWC guys do pretty well in these bouts?


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## geezer (Jun 19, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> What about this style of competition? The TWC guys do pretty well in these bouts?



_Bor-ing._ Just a cheesy, amaturish looking ring with flimsy straps instead of real ropes. Oh, sure, it'll do for sparring and friendly inter-school bouts but nothing like my really cool raised 6'x6' platform idea. 


With comments like that, I almost get the impression that you are more concerned with substance than appearance!


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## Jake104 (Jun 19, 2015)

geezer said:


> _Bor-ing._ Just a cheesy, amaturish looking ring with flimsy straps instead of real ropes. Oh, sure, it'll do for sparring and friendly inter-school bouts but nothing like my really cool raised 6'x6' platform idea.
> 
> 
> With comments like that, I almost get the impression that you are more concerned with substance than appearance!


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## Jake104 (Jun 19, 2015)

I'm out of ideas? I wish I was a felon


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## Jake104 (Jun 19, 2015)

Yeah the whole MUSU thing is not organized very well. But the rules aren't that bad. I think 30 sec clinch or ground? Then it gets reset.


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## Jake104 (Jun 19, 2015)

geezer said:


> With comments like that, I almost get the impression that you are more concerned with substance than appearance!


Depends on the substance? Beer and tequila? Then yes!


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## Marnetmar (Jun 21, 2015)

Strange idea just popped into my head:

What if we pooled our money together and made plans somehow to make this kind of event (as Geezer described) a reality? Granted, it'd have to start on a small scale and would obviously run into bumps and holes as all of these kinds of things do at first, but I'd really like to see WC get some proper representation and I think we (the WC community) are the only ones who could really make it happen.


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## Blindside (Jun 21, 2015)

You should start with in school or intraschool unpublicized bouts so that your fighters have a clue before you start doing something that takes a monetary investment.


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## geezer (Jun 21, 2015)

Blindside said:


> You should start with in school or intraschool unpublicized bouts so that your fighters have a clue before you start doing something that takes a monetary investment.



_Exactly._ Practice the format inside a 6' x6' taped square with something like the proposed rules. See if it works. Make adjustments in the rules and ring as needed. Then build the platform. Try it out. Make sure it's safe and make any necessary improvements. Maybe pad the top and sides? Get the wrinkles ironed out then invite other groups. Share some videos.... and if it's fun, get some bigger groups together. 

Somebody with a real school and a good number of students could actually get something like this going. I'm a part-time instructor and only have a handful of students split between WC and FMA. So I'm definitely _not_ the guy to promote this.


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## Argus (Jun 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> I'd like to see a WC sparring/competition rule-set that was totally distinctive and just ...well, kinda fun. Like something based on the "table-top" fighting seen occasionally in chi-sau demos and in the move _Ip Man II_, but toned down for safety.  How about fighting on a raised 6ft. X 6ft. platform set about 1ft. off the ground, with pads on the edges and mats on the ground below.
> 
> Opponents would have to do all their fighting in a very limited space. Scoring would be continuous like boxing, clinches would have a time limit then the ref would separate the fighters. Throws would be allowed and could be followed to the ground for a maximum of five seconds, limiting, but _not_ totally eliminating groundwork. Lastly, falling off the platform would result in a deduction of points, but not defeat. You wouldn't want to have falling off end in a _loss _since that could lead to a "sumo" strategy of big guys pushing and shoving rather than encouraging a close range striking bout.
> 
> This kind of fighting platform might really make it fun to watch infighting striking systems like WC and related styles compete. Also,  it needn't be restricted to CMA. Boxers and others could do quite well under such circumstances.



That sounds like fun, actually. I'd participate even if (especially if?) you weren't keeping score 

Really though, why do we need to keep score? Can't sparring just be a fun thing and a learning experience?


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## Jake104 (Jun 22, 2015)

Unless The platform is 20 feet above the ground with alligators and poisonous snakes underneath? This just doesn't interest me. Sorry fellas.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2015)

Argus said:


> That sounds like fun, actually. I'd participate even if (especially if?) you weren't keeping score
> 
> Really though, why do we need to keep score? Can't sparring just be a fun thing and a learning experience?



Not always. Sometimes it is a knock down drag out war. Played for wins.

It depends what you are trying to achieve.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2015)

If it is a competition that involves face punching. I will play to win because if I don't and the other guy does I am more likely to get hurt.


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## Jake104 (Jun 23, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Unless The platform is 20 feet above the ground with alligators and poisonous snakes underneath? This just doesn't interest me. Sorry fellas.


Man tough crowd?  I was hoping someone would agree, like or find this post informative? Come on, snakes and alligators? That's just rad!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Man tough crowd?  I was hoping someone would agree, like or find this post informative? Come on, snakes and alligators? That's just rad!



Unless  you're talking moats with Great White Sharks and Piranha....it ain't worth our time


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Unless  you're talking moats with Great White Sharks and Piranha....it ain't worth our time



Sharks. With fricken laser beams. Is that too much to ask?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sharks. With fricken laser beams. Is that too much to ask?
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



ask and ye shall receive


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## drop bear (Jun 24, 2015)




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## Jake104 (Jun 24, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> ask and ye shall receive


Fricken awesomeness right there! Sign me up!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


>



This is better






Because the reality of that scene is that Burt Ward was terrified of Bruce Lee


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