# Is there really anything you can't teach yourself?



## DoubleZ711 (Mar 25, 2009)

As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?

When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.

I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2009)

You can learn anything by yourself the thing is do you really know what you have tought yourself, if it will really work without proper instruction. You see a tech is more than a movement but a sense of feeling one can only truely get with the proper instruction.


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## redantstyle (Mar 25, 2009)

sure, you can reinvent the wheel.

not sure you will get very far down the road, though.

and somethings you just wont figure out unless your a genius.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey guys,

How's the weather in your neck of the woods?  It's pretty sunny and downright balmy here in good old San Francisco.  Just checking in, wondering how y'all are gettin on.  Things going well?  alrighty then.

*chirp, chirp, chirp*


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't think I could learn much more than the basic moves of my style of karate.  Without bunkai and good sensei to teach it, nope, nothing, nada.

I can clearly see that being at the dojo and receiving instruction in person cannot be beat - period.

My 2 cents.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 25, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?
> 
> When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.
> 
> I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?


 
Yes. You can't learn martial arts from reading books, or watching videos. If you've spent years learning from an instructor, you can pick up a few things from other forms of media by understanding how they work in relation to what you've already learned, but especially at the beginner stage you will get nothing of value from "self educating."

It just doesn't work that way. Do you see a lot of olympic swimmers who are self taught? How about professional baseball players? How about professional dancers? You need a knowledgable educator there, on the scene, to move your body and reveal to you the subtleties in what you are learning. In physical activities, variances of fractions of an inch can be the difference between safe and unsafe practice, or effective and ineffective application, and you can't learn that from any book or video.

You want to learn martial arts. Here's what you need to do.

1. Figure out why. Competition? Trophies? Self defense? Fighting? Health and Fitness? Spiritual growth? An affinity for asian culture? 

2. Find some schools locally that meet that need. This is much more important than style. You need a school that can cater to your interests. You won't stick with "the world's greatest martial art" if your needs aren't being met.

3. Find an instructor who has something of value to offer and knows how to communicate that. You have to have both. Some people are great martial artists who can't teach worth a lick. Some people are great teachers who don't know anything of value about martial arts. You want someone who has both. That doesn't mean they have to be the best performer of martial arts in the world. They don't necessarily have to be able to do a 720 degree tornado kick to know how, and to be able to teach you how.

4. Show up, listen up, and keep up. You won't get anywhere without going to class regularly. Listen to your instructors, you're paying them for a reason. Practice at home. They can tell who does and who doesn't. Ultimately, they get paid either way, but you only grow if you put in the time and effort. Getting good at martial arts isn't easy. It's a slog. Often times it's boring, and repetitive, and exhausting. But it's also exciting, and energizing, and mind expanding. I don't know a single black belt who would trade his experiences in the arts back for the time and money he invested to gain his belt.

It's that simple, and that complex. You've been posting a lot on this board. I can tell you're looking for something. Until you know what that thing is, you won't find it. Once you do, you can narrow your search.

But don't waste time sitting at home playing Mortal Kombat and thinking you're learning karate. It doesn't work like that. Find an expert, pay the price, practice, and you'll see the results you want.


-Rob


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## arnisador (Mar 25, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own



Yes. Some of this stuff took several lifetimes to be developed.

If you can't kill anybody, you and your training partner aren't going to get swordsmanship exactly right.


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## AoCAdam (Mar 25, 2009)

I feel that you can learn the basics of everything. To really understand the fundamentals and technique you should go to a professional.


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## redantstyle (Mar 25, 2009)

> Yes. Some of this stuff took several lifetimes to be developed.


 
a much better version of my answer.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 25, 2009)

AoCAdam said:


> I feel that you can learn the basics of everything.


 
I can't speak for others, but as far as the stuff that I practice, absolutely not.  Not even the basics.  at best, you could sort of mimick it, but it would be a hollow shell and useless.


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## just2kicku (Mar 25, 2009)

No, you can't learn from a book or a video. It can be a great training tool, but there needs to be live interaction with an instructor to correct the little things. If you have no experience in any MA's you'll have no idea what you're doing or how you're supposed to be doing it.

Besides that, you need to feel what it's like to get hit and to hit someone.


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## astrobiologist (Mar 25, 2009)

Having a good teacher is important.  It excelerates your education and makes it possible to advance beyond just the basics.

However, you could theoretically learn quite a bit just by practising on your own.  How?  Go to a bar, punch some dude in the face, kick his butt, remember later how you did it.  Repeat the process over and again as much as possible.  Eventually, you'll be a master...  or you'll have successfully gotten your butt whipped over and over.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 25, 2009)

astrobiologist said:


> Having a good teacher is important. It excelerates your education and makes it possible to advance beyond just the basics.
> 
> However, you could theoretically learn quite a bit just by practising on your own. How? Go to a bar, punch some dude in the face, kick his butt, remember later how you did it. Repeat the process over and again as much as possible. Eventually, you'll be a master... or you'll have successfully gotten your butt whipped over and over.


 
I suppose this is true, after all, it somewhat mimics the methods which originally created what we now think of as "martial arts." 

That being said, this really would be reinventing the wheel. With your face. And without the help of anyone else.

We have to remember that the original combat arts were devolped as the result of _shared_ experiential knowledge amongst professional combatants. Soldiers who survived on the battlefield would share their war stories and teach each other the techniques that had worked for them. Over time, the best of those techniques would be passed on to the next generation of soldiers, and codified in the process. 

One lone guy walking into bars and punching people in the face probably wouldn't live long enough to codify his practice into anything worth passing on. Which is probably best for all of us anyway, because who wants to learn from an asshat like that?


-Rob


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## Flying Crane (Mar 25, 2009)

You learn better and will go further when you stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before you.  

get a teacher.  

quit looking for the quick-fix or the instant gratification.  

Stop fooling yourself.


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## matt.m (Mar 25, 2009)

There is absolutely no way what so ever that you could possibly learn judo or hapkido from a book or video.  There is no way possible.


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## MJS (Mar 25, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?
> 
> When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.
> 
> I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?


 
I think that you can learn anything, however, as its been said, depending on how you go about learning it, will determine how well you can perform, apply, teach, etc. said material.  I mean, I can pick up a video and copy what they're doing, but do I really have it?  Do I really know the ins and outs of what Im doing?  

Now you mention joint locks and grappling.  I'm sorry, but IMHO, those are 2 things that without proper instruction, will be pretty hard to really get the fine points.

Think about it....if it was really that easy to learn from a tape, people could save themselves quite a bit of cash.  Just buy the tape, train at home, and all the schools will close up.  IMO, it doesnt work that way.


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## searcher (Mar 25, 2009)

Sure you could teach yourself SOMETHING, but how much time do you have?   all of the techniques we have today came from someone.    I think that, if you are going to truly try to learn something, you are going to have some major bumps and bruises.





And risk permenant bodily harm in the process.


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## arnisador (Mar 25, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> You learn better and will go further when you stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before you.



Or to put it another way, the reason Pythagoras didn't develop the calculus isn't because he wasn't smart enough.


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## blindsage (Mar 25, 2009)

:feedtroll


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## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 25, 2009)

You could probably pick up some basics and having a partner and good material will help. I'm a big believer that the human body can only move efficiently in a particular number of ways. So maybe if you're really athletic (a gymnast, pro-footballer etc) it'll be a lot easier and you could learn beyond basics. In the end though having a good instructor will maximize your effort / gains ratio. Also when you start training for advanced techniques, you're not going to get anywhere unless you're a martial arts genius and have 16 hours a day for the next ten years. Then yeah, I guess you could be successfully self taught. Of course, whether or not you'd also have the ability to teach your techniques to the next generation (as someone who has a good instructor role-model) is another thing all together.


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## Aikicomp (Mar 25, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?
> 
> When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. *Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques* to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.
> 
> I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?


 
To your original question......to do so IMO would be wasteful. As others have said without an instructor to show you the little things you are doing wrong or right it would hinder you greatly. 

I'm an Instructor of Ju-Jitsu in which we use joint-locks and grappling extensively these techniques are dangerous and are finely taught, tuned and applied and without proper instruction in joint manipulation you seriously run the risk of destroying much needed parts of your and your partners body.

My advice is do not do it, bad things will eventually happen.

Michael


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 26, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> .
> 
> 4. Show up, listen up, and keep up. You won't get anywhere without going to class regularly. Listen to your instructors, you're paying them for a reason. Practice at home. They can tell who does and who doesn't.-Rob



Yes, they can. 

Currently, ninpo is only 1 class per week. I try to practise at home 2 times per week, just repeating the same basic kihon and tai sabaki over and over. He notices such things, because he can tell which people improve faster than others, and which people have corrected some of their mistakes from one class to another.

But without a teacher to point out the little mistakes (e.g. toes down, not sideways) you will not get rid of the small yet basic and mistakes that will influence everything you will learn afterwards.

Even the founders of a new style didn't get their skills out of the blue. They were usually expert at one or more existing arts, had an insight and built it from there. They didn't sat around in the couch until they thought 'I am going to invent <insert style here>' 

You cannot learn MA without a teacher. You can learn some things, and perhaps even learn to fight. But once your skills are checked / tested by someone who is an expert, he will find tons of mistakes.


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## K-man (Mar 26, 2009)

I do look at books, magazines etc to get new ideas. What I have seen promoted in books, magazines and videos may look good in print or on the screen so that is the first test. The second test is take it to the dojo, train it against resistance and see if it works. Some do some don't.

Recently I borrowed a book from the local library purporting to teach women self-defence. I would defy even a trained martial artist to make a large number of the techniques work. Anyone believing that they were protected by anything they learned in that book would be dead in a minute on the street. Just there is no one to vet the garbage printed.

Best answer, unless you are a reasonably skilled martial artist, avoid the middle man, go straight to a good teacher. :asian:


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## jarrod (Mar 26, 2009)

i compare self-teaching to tinkering around on a car.  you can take things apart, put them back together, figure out how they work, & generally be wiser for it.  but it just goes a lot smoother if you have a mechanic friend that can help you out.  

i think self-teaching is a valuable supplement to regular instruction, but it's no replacement.  

jf


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2009)

When sparring by yourself would you have to hit and kick yourself to make the training realistic?


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## Carol (Mar 26, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> When sparring by yourself would you have to hit and kick yourself to make the training realistic?



Or you could do what I do.  Be really clumsy and smash in to things.  It hurts, you get bruised, just like training 

Someone on FMATalk awhile back was asking about the best part of training in the FMAs.  One of the posters said the best part was sitting down for dinner with your teachers and/or classmates, because that's what real memories are made of.


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## seasoned (Mar 26, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) *besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?*
> 
> When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.
> 
> I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?


 
If it is an art you are talking about, no, books and videos are to enhance someone who is already advanced in some type of formal training. Say I want to build a house, there are many ways I could begin, and many ways I could fail. I could perhaps buy all of the material after looking over my how to do it book. Doing it this way would be fine for a short while, but then, I might spend a lot of money and time for nothing. I could go to a trade school and learn parts of home building, but miss a lot of the finer points. My last choice could be to see if I could pick up a job working for a professional, established builder, and start at the bottom, and over many years of working along side experience people, and with the right attitude, become a home builder, and even own a business some day. Please keep in mind that anyone can build a kids tree house with little training, but to truly do it right, then the above is the method I would pursue. Seek out a qualified, dedicated, person who can mentor you, and who has the depth within any art of your choosing and do it the right way. Good luck.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 26, 2009)

Alright, after reading all of these responses, I have only one question for all of you poo pooers....Who's going to pay for all the broken glass of my glass house that you ALL threw rocks through??????????

Oh yeah.....and clean up the mess?


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## seasoned (Mar 26, 2009)

Hand Sword said:


> Alright, after reading all of these responses, I have only one question for all of you poo pooers....Who's going to pay for all the broken glass of my glass house that you ALL threw rocks through??????????
> 
> Oh yeah.....and clean up the mess?


That is a very good place to start the rebuilding process.


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## bowser666 (Mar 26, 2009)

Lol and now Deep Thoughts .............. By Jack Handy ...  Anyone remember that skit on SnL ?  The OP's posts really remind me of that skit. Anyways my 2 cents on thsi is , sure you can teach yourself whatever you want but dont expect it to work. Remember the Ki master?   I have a feeling he was self taught and look what he got.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 26, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> You learn better and will go further when you stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before you.
> 
> get a teacher.
> 
> ...


 
Very important advice that bears repeating there.  

Learning a martial art is a long road and without a teacher it is not only hard to get started on the road but it is also very hard not to wander off it and get lost.

My empty hand MA experience lasted more than a decade and was only curtailed by severe injury in a bike accident.  After all those years, I had a feeling that I was pretty good but could see where others were better and how my teacher could guide me to get there.

In my current (sword) art, I am _nidan_, have six years or more training and am very well aware of how far I have to go and how easy it is to fall into bad habits and poor technique without the prescence of a talented teacher.

Teaching yourself something as complex and exacting as a Martial Art is in nearly all cases going to be an excercise in disappointment.  Even if you manage to interpret the books and videos correctly and mimic the moves, it will still take longer than by 'proper' tuition and more than likely you will have not developed a full understanding of just what all those fancy motions are for.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 26, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> ...besides things like how to do a proper *horse stance and silly things like that*?


 
wow, the level of arrogant ignorance is truly astounding.


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## morph4me (Mar 26, 2009)

Sure you can. You can teach yourself to fly an airplane the same way, or to drive a car. The results will be the same, you go through the motions and get yourself hurt.


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## clfsean (Mar 26, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?



Silly??? Oh ok... since you already know it all & obviously don't need the "silly things" to develop your foundation, why are you asking us?



DoubleZ711 said:


> When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.



Only thing "learned" by MA training is to improve 





DoubleZ711 said:


> improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training.


 and techniques & skills could be learned from videos or making it up as you go. 

Dude... do you actually believe this crap or are you just that moronic when it comes to MA training????????????



DoubleZ711 said:


> I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?



Chicken or egg???


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## daoneplus2 (Mar 26, 2009)

What if there are not Martial Art schools in your town or city?

What if you can not pay the funds required to see an instructor?

I can see how a lot of Martial Artist frown upon training without an instructor/teacher and confused by it as Martial Arts has been passed down from generation to generation, teacher to student.

But what about a time in darkness, lets say hypothetically there is an aggressive bully who treats you like scum and you want to learn Marital Arts to know what to do in these kind of situations. But the above situations apply? What do you do?

I agree that a student with a teacher could achieve more than a student without. But I haven't seen the most important question been ask?

*What if it works?* What if training by yourself works?

What if after two hours of practicing techniques with a friend you decide to go to the local bar and you get in a fight with an intoxicated sod and you defeat him using your Judo take-down or you Wing Chun trapping or Muay Thai kick or whatever you practiced with your friend early that day?

Whats to say you can't stop training by yourself? Who's to say? If it works why can't you use it?

'Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is essentially your own.' - Bruce Lee

Just my opinion.


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## bluekey88 (Mar 26, 2009)

Self-teaching i slike sex.  Sure, there's some stuff you can do by yourself, but it always leaves a mess and it's SOOOO much more fun when others are involved. 

Peace,
Erik


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## Sukerkin (Mar 26, 2009)

If it works, then it works. No great mystery there. 

What it will not be, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the person, is the martial art being mimiced. 
What it will also likely not be is as effective as if the person had been properly taught.

EDIT: *FC* followed me with a much more straight-talking and detailed response.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 26, 2009)

daoneplus2 said:


> What if there are not Martial Art schools in your town or city?
> 
> What if you can not pay the funds required to see an instructor?


 
then you are out of luck.  you don't have any god-given right to learn martial arts.  if there are no instructors that you can train with, then you don't get to train, plain and simple. Get over it.  Life ain't fair.



> *What if it works?* What if training by yourself works?


 
It doesn't.  But a lot of people fool themselves into believing that it does.  No sweat off my back if you wanna live in self-delusion.  Do what you want.



> What if after two hours of practicing techniques with a friend you decide to go to the local bar and you get in a fight with an intoxicated sod and you defeat him using your Judo take-down or you Wing Chun trapping or Muay Thai kick or whatever you practiced with your friend early that day?


 
Most likely you will get your *** handed to you unless you simply get lucky, in which case the two hours spent with your friend had nothing to do with it.  Trying to apply poorly learned techniques is inviting disaster be rained down on your ***.



> Whats to say you can't stop training by yourself? Who's to say? If it works why can't you use it?


 
Nobody can tell you that you can't.  But knowledgeable advice has been generously handed out here.  Choose to ignore it if you want.  Darwin awards are given out yearly...



> 'Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is essentially your own.' - Bruce Lee


 
Quoting Bruce Lee out of context and with no understanding of the martial arts is a very foolish thing to do.  In fact, it's tantamount to blind stupidity.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 26, 2009)

daoneplus2 said:


> What if there are not Martial Art schools in your town or city?
> 
> What if you can not pay the funds required to see an instructor?
> 
> ...


 
I'm not feeling patient enough for this today.

The short answer is no. You are wrong about everything. It doesn't work like that. 

Every single experienced martial artist in this thread has said the same thing. Are you listening?

That's not how it works. You can't just read about a judo throw and go beat up the town bully. It *doesn't* work.

Go ahead. Fool yourself. Go buy a BJJ book or watch a kenpo video on youtube and tell everyone what a badass you are. I just hope for your sake you never meet a real one.

Am I the only one who sees red when someone throws out a Bruce Lee quote and thinks that lends even an ounce of credibility to their argument?


-Rob


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## MJS (Mar 26, 2009)

daoneplus2 said:


> What if there are not Martial Art schools in your town or city?
> 
> What if you can not pay the funds required to see an instructor?
> 
> ...


 
It may be possible, however, the quality of that person will be poor.  I don't care how long anyone trains, what DVDs you watch or what books you read, without a real, live teaching, standing in front of you, the skills that you do 'learn' will be minimal at best.  

What if there are no schools around?  In todays world, I find that very hard to believe.  There may not be an art you want to train in, but no schools....I'm not sure I buy that.  However, your options are:

1) Travel to the school you want to train at.  If you want that art bad enough, you'll make a sacrifice.  Nobody ever said training would be easy.  So if it means, driving 1 1/2 hrs each way, so be it.

2) Travel to the school you're interested in, and take 1 or 2 day intensive private lessons.  Lets say I wanted to train with the Dog Bros.  I don't live in Ca., so I'd have to contact Marc Denny, tell him I am planning a 2 day trip, what I want out of the lesson, fly to Ca., train, tape my lesson, take notes, etc., fly back home and train my *** off on what I learned.  You may not be able to make it out that often, but doing that is better than trying to figure something out from a tape.

3) Lets say you want to train in Kenpo, but there are no Kenpo schools and you dont want to travel.  But, there is a TKD school.  I'd rather see someone train TKD, if they wanted to train bad enough.  At least they'd be learning from a live teacher.  Then down the road, you may be able to train at a place that you had originally intended on.


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## MJS (Mar 26, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I'm not feeling patient enough for this today.
> 
> The short answer is no. You are wrong about everything. It doesn't work like that.
> 
> ...


 
My thoughts exactly!!



> Am I the only one who sees red when someone throws out a Bruce Lee quote and thinks that lends even an ounce of credibility to their argument?
> 
> 
> -Rob


 
Oh trust me Rob, you're not alone.


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## clfsean (Mar 26, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Am I the only one who sees red when someone throws out a Bruce Lee quote and thinks that lends even an ounce of credibility to their argument?
> 
> 
> -Rob



Red??? Nah... I just chuckle harder & wonder when the chlorine will be added to the gene pool...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 26, 2009)

daoneplus2 said:


> What if there are not Martial Art schools in your town or city?
> 
> What if you can not pay the funds required to see an instructor?


If the only means that you have to train is via correspondence, then work within your limitations. And understand that correspondence training has it's limitations. 

Also, some home instructional courses are better than others, so just like a real dojo, be careful who you buy from.

Keep in mind that certain arts translate better to video than others and certain students can learn more from a video than others. A very well done video course on an art that translates well and a student who's primary way of learning is visual *and *who is earnest about his or her training is the best combination. 



daoneplus2 said:


> I can see how a lot of Martial Artist frown upon training without an instructor/teacher and confused by it as Martial Arts has been passed down from generation to generation, teacher to student.
> 
> But what about a time in darkness, lets say hypothetically there is an aggressive bully who treats you like scum and you want to learn Marital Arts to know what to do in these kind of situations. But the above situations apply? What do you do?


Again, work within your limitations. Physical conditioning and a punching bag are helpful too.



daoneplus2 said:


> I agree that a student with a teacher could achieve more than a student without. But I haven't seen the most important question been ask?
> 
> *What if it works?* What if training by yourself works?


*What if it doesn't?* What if your bad habit of dropping your guard when you execute a turning kick (a very common thing to see with beginners) and get your floating ribs broken by your opponent's counter kick, fall to the ground in pain only to be stomp kicked until your attacker figures out that *all* of your teeth really _are_ knocked out?

You won't know until the moment of truth. Not the best way to find out. In a class setting, you have the opportunity to test techniques against people more skilled than yourself and who can help you correct the bad habits that new students often develop.



daoneplus2 said:


> What if after two hours of practicing techniques with a friend you decide to go to the local bar and you get in a fight with an intoxicated sod and you defeat him using your Judo take-down or you Wing Chun trapping or Muay Thai kick or whatever you practiced with your friend early that day?


Then you go to jail for disorderly conduct. A drunk opponent is not a good measure your fighting prowess and your friend in the park is likely as much of a beginner or more of one than you are and will be poor preparation for the real deal.



daoneplus2 said:


> Whats to say you can't stop training by yourself? Who's to say? If it works why can't you use it?
> 
> 'Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is essentially your own.' - Bruce Lee
> 
> Just my opinion.


Yes, and after you have formally trained under a recognized master in a core art and then gone and trained with recognized experts in the techniques you wanted to pick up, feel free to do so. 

That is what Lee did, after all.

Daniel


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 26, 2009)

I see alot of the same stuff being said over and over and in slightly different versions here.

The truth of the matter is that if a person is smart enough, has enough time to invest, and has enough people to work with then yes they can recreate anything done in martial arts today.

The fact is that all of this stuff was created by people, it was not written down and handed to people from a supernatural force.

The main problems as I see them are that..

Nobody has enough time or training partners to do it.

The vast majority, if not all martial arts I know of have come together over generations, from multiple sources contributing to the material. Then after the material has been presented then it is tested, refined, and supplemented in most cases.

Now if we are actually talking about teaching yourself from a book, or video series that is actually alot easier, although not practical, and in most cases not achievable. The resources today are better then ever, and being able to gain an understanding and workable knowledge of a martial art using books, and or video lessons is something that the right people can do to a certain point, completely? I don't know. 
The Lamkins make a claim in their sales pitch that a study was done in regards to how well a person can learn from a live instructor, versus a video series, and thier claims are that there was no discernable difference. Now I do not know their source for these "studies" or if its true, but it is obviously debatable. 
My own experience is after many years of personal Martial Arts Training in the styles of American Kenpo, Muay Thai, Boxing, and Jiu Jitsu, and I know I was able to buy some books on Judo, read the descriptions, follow the pictorial guide, and practice with some friends and understand the throws enough that when I worked with a Judo Black Belt, he asked where I had studied Judo, and complimented me on what I taught myself. 
I have always been very athletic, and caught onto things quickly, but I am not sure if I could have gotten the same thing out without my 16 years of being a student in different arts, under different instructors.

I see alot of people writting it off as impossible, but I think this has more to do with people wanting to believe there was no easier or quicker way to do things, or that they want to believe that their own limitations are everyone elses. 

I would have to say that the majority of people do not have the proper intent to learn from a book or video, or teach themselves a martial art.
I would say that a small group of people with a proper understanding of body mechanics, and an athelticly gifted ability can teach themselves martial arts movements and technique and strategy to a certain point.
I would say its possible that a very small minority of people have the intelligence, combined with the desire, intent, and physical ability to understand, break down, and gain a mastery of martial arts without any personal instruction. I have not met this person or people yet, but out of everything I have seen I can not discount it at this point. Of course the main examples we have are people who claim too have done this but are so bad at what they do, or so deluded that its obvious they are horrible.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 26, 2009)

Oh before someone points out the lack of this in my above post..

I do believe that the best way to learn is under a qualified instructor.
I also believe that until a minimum level of understanding of the basics and abilities and functions of the human body is achieved, that most people should stay away from multiple arts, books, and videos as it will more likely then not confuse them. 
Once that level is achieved, then I feel a person who has the ability to self correct is best  served by as many points of contact as possible, including multiple instructors, arts, books, videos, etc.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 26, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I would have to say that the majority of people do not have the proper intent to learn from a book or video, or teach themselves a martial art.


I agree.  True also of the majority of students in commercial dojos.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I would say that a small group of people with a proper understanding of body mechanics, and an athelticly gifted ability can teach themselves martial arts movements and technique and strategy to a certain point.


Again, I agree.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I would say its possible that a very small minority of people have the intelligence, combined with the desire, intent, and physical ability to understand, break down, and gain a mastery of martial arts without any personal instruction. I have not met this person or people yet, but out of everything I have seen I can not discount it at this point. Of course the main examples we have are people who claim too have done this but are so bad at what they do, or so deluded that its obvious they are horrible.


Possible?  Yes.  

The problem is that everyone who wants to 'teach themselves' always seems to think that they're this rare prodigy, when in reality, they just want to take a shortcut and don't want to admit that they ended up with a result inferior to that achieved by those who didn't take the shortcut.

Daniel


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## Andrew Green (Mar 26, 2009)

You could, at least some people "could", but it would take a lot longer and you would never reach your full potential.

Running is a fairly straight forward activity, yet I bet that anyone going to the Olympics as a runner wouldn't have made it without coaches along the way.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 26, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> You could, at least some people "could", but it would take a lot longer and you would never reach your full potential.
> 
> Running is a fairly straight forward activity, yet I bet that anyone going to the Olympics as a runner wouldn't have made it without coaches along the way.


 
That's really the nugget at the heart of the rock we've been chipping away at.  Excellently simple way of putting the point :tup:.


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## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 26, 2009)

daoneplus2 said:


> What if there are not Martial Art schools in your town or city?
> 
> What if you can not pay the funds required to see an instructor?
> 
> ...



Look harder for an MA facility. How about a school wrestling team or maybe a gym that includes boxing as part of it's programs? How about placing an ad up on a local bulletin board asking for others to train with? As for money, it comes up to priorities. If martial arts is important to you, then put it as a higher priority, if not, then don't bother with it.





daoneplus2 said:


> I agree that a student with a teacher could achieve more than a student without. But I haven't seen the most important question been ask?
> 
> *What if it works?* What if training by yourself works?
> 
> ...



Beating up an intoxicated sod doesn't require martial arts skills, it requires.... an intoxicated sod. Now I'm not saying basic things can't be learnt but if the measure of your ability is beating up a drunk then your ability isn't really being tested. And please don't use that Bruce Lee quote so out of context. It will just make you a target for flamers.


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## just2kicku (Mar 26, 2009)

daoneplus2 said:


> What if there are not Martial Art schools in your town or city?
> 
> What if you can not pay the funds required to see an instructor?
> 
> ...


 

I guess if you can't pay the funds required for an instructor, it's because you spent all your damn money on books and videos. Hey, if you're gonna throw money away, throw it my way!

As far as taking on a drunk dumbass in a bar, you don't need a book or a video for that, just throw a wild haymaker and maybe you'll connect. Seen it work, might as well use it.


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## just2kicku (Mar 26, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I'm not feeling patient enough for this today.
> 
> The short answer is no. You are wrong about everything. It doesn't work like that.
> 
> ...


 

  Boy Rob, talk about say it likeit is.   :erg:


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## mook jong man (Mar 26, 2009)

Even with a bloody instructor in the same room as me , I still made mistakes and bad habits that I had to get rid of.

 Try learning chi sau from a damn video or book , you might be able to approximate the shapes if your lucky , and it might even look like chi sau.

 But like a fake Rolex watch it would just be a pale cheap imitation

Being able to use the correct energy , projection of the force vectors in the proper way and all the rest of it is something that can only be felt and learned in the presence of a qualified person and takes years .


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## Thesemindz (Mar 26, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Boy Rob, talk about say it likeit is. :erg:


 
What can I say? Caught me on a bad day.

And the Bruce Lee thing sets me off. I'm *really *tired of that.


-Rob


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## just2kicku (Mar 26, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> What can I say? Caught me on a bad day.
> 
> And the Bruce Lee thing sets me off. I'm *really *tired of that.
> 
> ...


 
I hear ya brah!   :asian:


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## Thesemindz (Mar 26, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Even with a bloody instructor in the same room as me , I still made mistakes and bad habits that I had to get rid of.
> 
> Try learning chi sau from a damn video or book , you might be able to approximate the shapes if your lucky , and it might even look like chi sau.
> 
> ...


 
This is exactly my point.

My instructor showed me a number of techniques that I was completely unable to reproduce until they were performed on me. It _looked_ like I was doing all the right movements, but the technique wouldn't work until I _felt_ how to do it. And you can't get that without a knowledgable instructor.

One such technique was the horizontal z-lock. I was mimicking my instructors hand positions, but until he did it to me and I could feel how the pressure was applied, I couldn't make it work on my opponent.

And that's just one example of literally hundreds of _basic_ techniques. There are _dozens_ of ways to strike with the hand alone, and that doesn't even take into account methods of execution such as thrusting, snapping, etc. Even once one learns the basic techniques, there are more complex combinations of techniques taught by many arts to teach application. Grappling is even more complex, requiring an understanding of techniques, leverage, resistance, angles, etc, and constant contact with a resisting opponent. There is so much beyond the appearance of physical performance necessary for effective application, and you can't pick any of that up from books and videos.

There's a reason professional athletes have coaches, and trainers. There's a reason professional football teams have head coaches, and assistant coaches, and quarterback coaches, and strength and conditioning coaches, and athletic trainers, and the athletes themselves have personal trainers on top of all of that.

If you could do it alone, and master it alone, people would. The arts weren't created out of thin air. Parker, or Presas, or Gracie, or Miyagi, weren't just sitting around one day when they were struck by inspiration. They had instructors. And those instructors had instructors. Today's instructors are the result of literally thousands of years of accumulated experiential knowledge. Sure, some people are creating their own arts, but by and large they fit into one of two realms. Those who have trained for years to learn martial arts and are recategorizing their knowledge for their students in a way they think will aid their learning, and complete jokers and frauds who are either delusional or opportunistic and are preying upon an ignorant customer base. Either way, _real_ martial arts are still being passed on by instructors.

Can an experienced student gain something from a book or a video, sure. But a beginner won't get anything of value from studying pictures of people doing martial arts, and certainly can't "teach himself." 


-Rob


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## Thesemindz (Mar 29, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> I was a golden gloves boxer for 2 years, and I know for a fact that there is no way you can reach that level by reading a book. Just the thought of that makes me want to laugh. Just go check out a gym. Boxing is one of those sports where you either have the talent or you don't, and a visit to the gym will show you who you are.


 
Ok, wait a second. 

This guy in one thread claims that he's *seventeen*. In another he claims that he was a golden gloves boxer for *two years*, and *there is no way you can reach that level by reading a book*. Then he starts this thread and says that *theoretically* you could teach yourself martial arts if you *use common sense when training*, or *read a martial arts guide*.

Am I the only one who sees a gross contradiction between these two threads? You can't learn boxing from a book, but you can learn other martial arts that way? How many 15 year old golden gloves boxers are there out there? According to wikipedia, the answer is *none*. Golden gloves is only open to amateur boxers 16 and older. 

I won't call the OP a *liar*. That would be rude. Some others have called him a *troll*. I won't do that either.

I'll just leave this here so people can come to their own conclusions.


-Rob


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## chinto (Mar 29, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?
> 
> When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.
> 
> I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?




yes the simple answer is there is a lot about unarmed and armed combat you need an instructor for.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 29, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?



I do not think foot work and stances are silly. But ignoring that point, I would say no one cannot learn on their own. 

Who comes by and checks their balances. And the first time they test it is for real and they get hurt. Not the best training method. So even if you have a partner who knows nothing, you only get a certain amount of work, but the experience of the instructor(s) and their teachings as well. 



DoubleZ711 said:


> When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.



Reflex work can be done on ones own. 
Reaction time can be taught on ones own.
Coordination can be taught on ones own. 

But, even with a partner who is untrained the best you get is the timing of your opponent. Yes, two people can slowly walk each other up in skill set, but this usually only works for those who have a very complete understanding of the body and the mechanics and the techniques. 

So, learning techniques and then timing as well is not going to get you anywhere without an instructor. 



DoubleZ711 said:


> I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?




It is possible but as pointed by many here, it is based upon previous training when many went out on their own. And that training was not anything to throw away or ignore. 



As to other questions posted in this thread about people who do not have an instructor in there area, I say you are not looking hard enough. Yes, sometimes one has to travel to find them, or look at the "Y" or Gyms for $5 to $10 classes for basics. But there are people out there who teach for the art alone. All they need to see is a commitment from the student. I being one of them is there is commitment, I go out of my way to help them. 

If you are under 18 and cannot travel that is just life in not being old enough in this society. If you are over 18 and do not have the money, then where are you spending your money. I see too many people spending their money on alcohol and cigarettes and munchies and other quick small ticket items and then complain they never have money. The others I see are those that have the snowmobile and the jet ski and the quad and or the motorcycle and then complain they do not have the money to train, but they see to have the money to go out on their toys when gas is $4 a gallon. 


Now, I know some who do not have time. This I seriously respect. I know some who run their own business and when they loose a manager or a key employee they have to pick up the time and this means they cannot train. I also know that when one gets married and or has kids this takes up time as it should, so people have to choose which items they spend their time on. Is it the the Monday night football and then Tuesday night soccer and the Wednesday night Golf and then Thursday night Pool Leagues, and then Friday & Saturday rolls around and their friends or significant others have scheduled time for them. They have to choose which of these will drop, as they also have to run errands and hit the gym and shop and also clean and spend time during the day with the significant other and or kids. 

This is the only serious point, I truly believe, the rest is just how much of a priority is it to you.


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## GBlues (Mar 30, 2009)

Let me play the devils advocate for a second. While personal instruction is always preferred. Let me ask you all this. Who taught the first kung-fu master? Where did the guy who taught him learn his skills? Who taught his teacher? Supposedly he learned from watching how the animals fought, I mean that is how the story goes isn't it? So if his master taught himself from watching the animals....what is to say that somebody else couldn't do the same? Because the founder was a freaking genius and nobody can ever do that, because nobody will ever be that smart or that good??? Come on that's absolutely ridiculous. There is alot of talk about how videos are the quick easy answer. So to could it be said about having an instructor that teaches you  instead of having life experience teach what you need to know. I mean talking about advanced techniques, how many of those advanced techniques do you really feel you could pull off in a real situation? My guess is maybe a handful if any. Most people even martial artists are going to revert to the basics of combat. That's why it is so important to learn the basics. But really you could learn the basics on your own. It only takes a few times of being kicked in the nut sack, to realize you don't want to give the guy a full profile, and you need find a way to counter that. A buddy of mine that I used to play fight with in grade school, and clean up to and after highschool. Would routinely kick me in the nuts, everytime I went for the roundhouse kick. I learned real fast it's not a good idea to do that kick, at least not against him. He had longer legs. It didn't take a karate, or kung-fu instructor to teach me that. I learned that on my own. So while you can learn more intricate things training from an instructor, the basics you probably could develop on your own, and become effective. It gets really old for me, hearing all the time, that you have to have an instructor for everything. When it's simply not true in my opinion. I like training at a dojo, but I have and still do learn things on my own. If your not, you aren't learning, you being taught. You have to learn to think for yourself, or you'll always just be a student mimmicking moves. Not all techniques work the same for everybody, and sometimes you have to change them, you can't do that, if you don't also think and learn on your own. That's my humble opinion.:asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 30, 2009)

Good post, Nicholas.

While I don't think that correspondance classes are necessarily a shortcut (if learning without an instructor, and if the student is truly earnest, it may actually take longer), often the people to whom many such courses are marketed are looking for a shortcut.

Of course learning from a video or a DVD is not really teaching yourself.  You're still learning from someone else, but their instruction is delivered via an intermediate media.

Daniel


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 30, 2009)

Nicholas,

I broke your post up as it makes it easier for me to read and also respond. 




GBlues said:


> Let me play the devils advocate for a second.



No problem, questions are always good, comments are fine, and as long as you allow me to play Devil Devil Advocate then I have no problem.




GBlues said:


> While personal instruction is always preferred. Let me ask you all this. Who taught the first kung-fu master?



I do not care. But that is history and politics. As pointed out by some here this is based upon the work of many people of long periods of time. It would be like asking as stated earlier why someone did not develop Differential Equations and non-euclidean geometry before addition. One depends upon the other. 





GBlues said:


> Where did the guy who taught him learn his skills?



Not a real valid question if the there was first, how does one get a zero. 
Yes I playing the Devil here. I see your point, but it was not presented well. 

You point is it had to start somewhere. Some say it started with Cain and Able. Others might say it started when the first parasite attacked and the host had to learn how to defend itself. 




GBlues said:


> Who taught his teacher?



One again if you have a first and then an instructor to the first and then an instructor to the first this is like say N-1 regression back to zero. But when N is 1 you get zero so there is nothing to count. One could also say it is progression of the limit to infinity for future generations. They could be better than the best ever thought of being of today. 




GBlues said:


> Supposedly he learned from watching how the animals fought, I mean that is how the story goes isn't it?



It is your story. I will accept it as I have no data or counter story that has any more validity. 




GBlues said:


> So if his master taught himself from watching the animals....what is to say that somebody else couldn't do the same?



Now comes the real point of your post so far. If the first was able to teach himself then why not others. Of course they can. But most inventors who do not understand science and math end up inventing things that do not work. So ti does become a trial and error situation. 

I personally can watch people do an application of a technique or an entry to a technique I may not have seen before and then go do it. But that is me. And from my HUMBLE experience, most people are not me in the least. No insult to others, but may if not most have to see it and or hear it and or feel it before they can get it. So, having a partner that will let you work with him to see if it works is good. But if time is money the amount of time spent to try to learn something basic instead of going and learning it from an instructor makes me wonder why they even bothered. Add to the fact the most beginners do not like the basics and want to jump to the cool stuff. (* Note I will discuss more on basics later in the post *)



GBlues said:


> Because the founder was a freaking genius and nobody can ever do that, because nobody will ever be that smart or that good???



Well, not that no one, but it does not mean everyone. From my experience, there are too many who think they know it and walk in to a club to test themselves or try to test it on the street only to find out the real hard way that it does not work. 

So now time for more Devil to the Devil. Let us assume that you go out and practice on your own. Then you get into a real knife fight and either die or so serious injured you might wish you were dead. And your defense was that this guy on the internet told me it was ok to do this on my own. So, now your family comes along reads your notes and then checks the internet and takes me to court because they are upset you were injured or killed. So, I loose everything because I did not tell you to get proper instruction or refused to reply to the topic at all. 

Yes, I think on lots of layers for self defense at all times. 



GBlues said:


> Come on that's absolutely ridiculous.



Whta is more ridiculous is that more people think they can learn to fight without ever being in a fight. 

Everyone drives a car, so they think they can run a care company. 

Everyone has a check book and credit card, yet for some reason less people think they can handle investment banking. But there are lots of people who think they can. 


I find it more ridiculous that people think they should teach themselves. I have taught lots of stuff to me. I have done things instinctively from basics that ended up being applied elsewhere. But in the end I had an instructor or instructors who helped me along. 


Note: Knowing a Techinique and knowing when or the timing of the technique are totally different. 




GBlues said:


> There is alot of talk about how videos are the quick easy answer. So to could it be said about having an instructor that teaches you instead of having life experience teach what you need to know.



I think Videos are fine for people who already have instruction in that art. I think they are fine for reference material to refresh your mind, or to give you a jump start after you understnad some basics, but the instructor will guide and dine tune and adjust as required. 

You second point above is valid. Just by having an instructor it does nto mean you have it all and know how to apply it. But it does give you the idea of your own workings and home work as well as the instructions of your instructor. Life expereince is the only real test. But most people train to not test in the real life experience. 




GBlues said:


> I mean talking about advanced techniques, how many of those advanced techniques do you really feel you could pull off in a real situation? My guess is maybe a handful if any.



Well, this will seem confusing. I don't do advanced techniques. I only do basics. But, the basics I do, are considered advanced by even those with a black belt in the systems I teach. So, the answer is either all are advanced or there are no advanced. 

I teach some basic knife defenses. When asked like I almost get, what I would do in "X" situation, it is not what I just taught. this upsets many confuses most, and frustrates a lot. But I go on to explain, that what I do and what they do would be different as my basics are way above their basics. What I consider normal and obvious most people cannot even see or comprehend. I do break down the timing aspect and the technique changes, and explain that what I taught them will get them more experience to move forward in their training and then from there they can move forward again. I then even let them try the application I did. They get cut. They wonder how I did. I show them again. It is an issue of knowing when and how, not just how. 




GBlues said:


> Most people even martial artists are going to revert to the basics of combat.




This is a true statement. And those that do not revert to basics, will do nothing. But here is the caveat, your basics and mine will not be the same. 




GBlues said:


> That's why it is so important to learn the basics.


 
This is very true. But most who train my themselves will not spend the time on weight transfer in stances, but instead will strat wavign their arms around and never have their arms tied to their body and a solid frame work and then wonder why it does not work. 



GBlues said:


> But really you could learn the basics on your own. It only takes a few times of being kicked in the nut sack, to realize you don't want to give the guy a full profile, and you need find a way to counter that.



For, me it was just once. I guess you are stronger than I am.   

I agree, if you keep getting hit you need to learn a counter. But if you have no clue because you are always out of position then this is where your training stops. Either from your own point or from stagnation or from death when it ultimately fails. 




GBlues said:


> A buddy of mine that I used to play fight with in grade school, and clean up to and after highschool. Would routinely kick me in the nuts, everytime I went for the roundhouse kick. I learned real fast it's not a good idea to do that kick, at least not against him. He had longer legs. It didn't take a karate, or kung-fu instructor to teach me that. I learned that on my own.



Ah but did you learn that maybe if you started your roundhouse kick and then changed it to a full body block he would kick your shin and he might no try that again, which would open up your round house kick to be an option. Instead you learned not to do something. Instead you should have learned how to move and counter or position and attack, or to bait and set up. 

So your learnings for round house kicks stopped there, and possible got worse as you might not practice them as much any more. 

(* I have broken up the next into fragments to address each idea or comment *)


GBlues said:


> So while you can learn more intricate things training from an instructor,


You can also learn basics faster and easier. 



GBlues said:


> the basics you probably could develop on your own,


Probably is true. This means it is not 100%. So what is the percentage for the average person? 30% of 50% or 70%? Is that value added for their time and or training? 



GBlues said:


> and become effective.



While I have known a few street fighters who knew a couple of traps and strikes and could hit hard, they were efective yes. But once they were out classed they were very ineffective. So, effective for what? 

Of course as stated above having an instructor and never actually testing your skill set is only marginally better. I do not advocate fights, but controller sparring, with someone to call it when it gets to rough so people can see and feel and learn. 



GBlues said:


> It gets really old for me, hearing all the time, that you have to have an instructor for everything.



It gets really old for me to listen to people who have never been in a fight and trained with an instructor to those who have just trained themselves, pontificate about the values and effectivness of a training method without any real expereince in it. 

I know you might say how do I have experience with those who taught themselves? It is easy. They come talk to me and test themselves on me and find it does not work. Most go away and do not come back. Some come back once or twice, but most make the comment that he is too big or too strong or too tall but I KNOW IT WILL WORK. To this I say I have smaller guys in my class that have and do make it work, as they have trained and tested themselves in a controlled manner. 




GBlues said:


> When it's simply not true in my opinion.



Your opinion. 

My opinion. 

We both have one. 




GBlues said:


> I like training at a dojo, but I have and still do learn things on my own.



Doing your homework is a very important part of learning. Practicing on your own is great. Practicing with a friend is even better. But this assumes a small amount of time a week or two from class to class with you working with others or even less time. This is good training. 




GBlues said:


> If your not, you aren't learning, you being taught.



I agree. 




GBlues said:


> You have to learn to think for yourself, or you'll always just be a student mimmicking moves.



This is very true. Thinking for yourself is not mutually exclusive to haivng an instructor. I would hope that over time you think for yourself, but not right up front. Example of this is basics math. 1 + 1 = 2. We learn this and then move on. We are taught this and then learn move stuff. We even more on to multiplication and subtraction and even division, and then years later, we learn about story problems and then years after that we learn about proofs. 

So, if we asked the kindergarten student why is 1 + 1 =2? they will not know. And even if you explain on of the proofs to them, only teh very exceptional could repeat it back and those that repeat it back mot likely would not be able to apply the idea another subject. Sometimes you just learn something so you have blocks to work with, and then later you can learn why those blocks fit together. 




GBlues said:


> Not all techniques work the same for everybody, and sometimes you have to change them, you can't do that, if you don't also think and learn on your own.



Understanding the attributes of the weapon you are using also means understanding the attribute of the technique you have and also the attributes of the opponent you have. Adjusting is good. Learning to adjust is good. Learning to adjust on the fly is better. But only working with yourself or your untrained partner, one will not get this. 




GBlues said:


> That's my humble opinion.:asian:



I am not sure you came across humble and I know I sure did not.  

But that is what we get when we play Devil's Advocate and Devil Devil's Advocate.  


Peace


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## GBlues (Mar 30, 2009)

Hey rich I really want to respond to your post, but let me ask this really quick. Before I respond to your post could you tell me how you break up the quotes??? Been wondering how to do that for awhile, and still haven't figured it out. Tried a few different things and it just gets all screwy. Seems like it makes it easier to respond to specific posts. THanks I'll give a good response after you tell me how to break this up.



Rich Parsons said:


> Nicholas,
> 
> I broke your post up as it makes it easier for me to read and also respond.
> 
> ...


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2009)

GBlues said:


> Hey rich I really want to respond to your post, but let me ask this really quick. Before I respond to your post could you tell me how you break up the quotes??? Been wondering how to do that for awhile, and still haven't figured it out. Tried a few different things and it just gets all screwy. Seems like it makes it easier to respond to specific posts. THanks I'll give a good response after you tell me how to break this up.


 
You need to use the following:

Use these [ ] with the word quote in between.  Use that at the beginning.  Do the same thing at the end of the paragraph you want to quote, with a / before the word quote.



Hope that helped.


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## arnisador (Mar 30, 2009)

GBlues said:


> Let me ask you all this. Who taught the first kung-fu master? Where did the guy who taught him learn his skills? Who taught his teacher?



My belief is that an art as intricate as kung fu must have developed over several generations, from a much simpler system. When it became a form of "kung fu" to be "mastered" is something of a heap paradox issue. But, no one sat down and created Wing Chun from whole cloth...nor Western boxing. Someone who had a good punch taught someone who worked on the defenses, who taught someone who saw the need for footwork...it took several minds over several teaching generations.

You could start this process in one lifetime, but not finish it. It takes time (for the trial and error, as suggested above) and the viewpoints of multiple individuals with different experiences, opinions, strengths and weaknesses, etc. Now if you're building from a base of having been trained in actual arts, it's different.


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## jks9199 (Mar 30, 2009)

MJS said:


> You need to use the following:
> 
> Use these [ ] with the word quote in between.  Use that at the beginning.  Do the same thing at the end of the paragraph you want to quote, with a / before the word quote.
> 
> ...


You can also make use of the nifty little cartoon-like word balloon at the top of the reply area.  It'll put the two sets of qoute signals in the post.  If you highlight a portion of your post, and click on the word balloon, it'll break it out like 





> this


.

Or, you can just copy and past and move them around as you need.


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## DoubleZ711 (Mar 30, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Ok, wait a second.
> 
> This guy in one thread claims that he's *seventeen*. In another he claims that he was a golden gloves boxer for *two years*, and *there is no way you can reach that level by reading a book*. Then he starts this thread and says that *theoretically* you could teach yourself martial arts if you *use common sense when training*, or *read a martial arts guide*.
> 
> ...


If you knew anything about amateur boxing, which you don't, as is obvious by you citing wikipedia, then you would know that the Golden Gloves is open to anyone over the age of I believe 8. Over 16 is just for open class fighters. 16 and under fight under the title of Junior Olympian. Please never cite wikipedia again.


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## jarrod (Mar 30, 2009)

actually you have to be 15 according to the 2008 Junior Olympic Fact Sheet

http://usaboxing.org/event/event/247

jf


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## DoubleZ711 (Mar 30, 2009)

jarrod said:


> actually you have to be 15 according to the 2008 Junior Olympic Fact Sheet
> 
> http://usaboxing.org/event/event/247
> 
> jf



That's for the National Junior Olympic Tournament, which is different than fighting in the Golden Gloves as a kid. Idk though, when they signed me up when I was 15, they signed me as JO, which I assumed was for Junior Olympian. I didnt pay much attention to detail though


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## Makalakumu (Mar 30, 2009)

After ten years of intense training in one art in order to develop a base and several years training in other arts to provide perspective, only then did I begin to teach my self a few things.  And then, I only did it after I was an adult and had trained for several years as a kid and a teen.  I didn't even count that in the "ten years" mentioned above.  

The thing about teaching myself that I knew that I had to understand was that I knew that I would make mistakes and these mistakes would require me to eventually go out and seek a teacher.  The other thing that I had to understand was that the further I moved away from my knowledge base, the more mistakes there were.  

For example, I can teach myself a kata and learn the bunkai in a system that is similar to my style of karate.  I would NOT think that I could have this kind of success with sword work though.  My prior experience is just too limited.

Anyway, sorry for jumping in so late, but that's my two bits.


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## shihansmurf (Mar 31, 2009)

I find the idea of teaching oneself a skill to be inherently absurd. How does one go about teaching oneself something that they don't know?If you knew the skill welll enough to instruct it you wouldn't need to be your own student, now would you?Kinda like reading a self-help book, really. If you could help your self in the first place, you wouldn't need the book.

Seriously, without an expansive base of knowledge I don't think that it is possible to gain any real level of usefull ability by self-study from videos and books. Assuming that you have a solid working knowledge of the art in question, the fact is you could learn from a video and increase your skills. Without that base of skill, though you're kidding yourself if you think that you are going to develop any usefull ability at martial arts. 

I realize that I could be very wrong on this, but I've never met anyone that has trained exclusively from videos and books, sans a live instructor, that was worth anything as a martial artist. Having a qualified teacher and training partners is indispensible. If your goal is not to be worth a crap as a martial artist then by all means train this way.

In other words, your'e going to get out of training what you put in to it. Think of it as an invesment in youself. If you think so little of yourself that you would invest garbage in your training, then that is what you will get out of it, and frankly that is what you deserve to get out of it. If, on the other hand, you have a higher opinion of yourself and want to invest something more valuable then get on a mat with an instructor, sweat and earn the skills.Taking short cuts and easy outs in training demonstrate laziness and a lack of discipline that will not serve you well in a violent encounter, and in point of fact are indicitive of the personality type that isn't suited to self-directed in the first place. If you want to want to learn martial arts, find a teacher, get on the mat, and train.

Just my view.
Mark


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## Andrew Green (Mar 31, 2009)

GBlues said:


> I think it is important not to confuse myth with reality.  The "myth" is taught from watching animals, but that's all it is, a myth.
> 
> All skills are learnt basically the same way, one person comes up with something and passes it on, the next person takes it, expands on it and passes on the improved version.
> 
> ...


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 31, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> Einstein didn't just pull relativity theory out of nothing, he built upon countless scientists before him.  The microchip wasn't a sudden gift from the God of technology in its current format, it was a gradual improvement over much simpler devices.



Einstein first came up with special relativity. That theory uses nothing but simple calculus and college maths. While the implications are profound and many, it is still fairly easy to grasp.

But the math for general relativity eluded him for years. He had the general idea right, but failed to fit it in a mathematical model. Then he found the work of Riemann (a dead mathematician), and recognized that it was the perfect model for describing his ideas.

Even the great innovators don't innovate out of the blue. They build upon 'basics' that were contributed by many others, and then use their ideas to bring it together. If Einstein had had to do everything himself, he'd never have finished his theories.


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## Guardian (Mar 31, 2009)

Boy, this one was fun to read LOL.


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2009)

GBlues said:


> Let me play the devils advocate for a second. While personal instruction is always preferred. Let me ask you all this. Who taught the first kung-fu master? Where did the guy who taught him learn his skills? Who taught his teacher? Supposedly he learned from watching how the animals fought, I mean that is how the story goes isn't it? So if his master taught himself from watching the animals....what is to say that somebody else couldn't do the same? Because the founder was a freaking genius and nobody can ever do that, because nobody will ever be that smart or that good??? Come on that's absolutely ridiculous. There is alot of talk about how videos are the quick easy answer. So to could it be said about having an instructor that teaches you instead of having life experience teach what you need to know. I mean talking about advanced techniques, how many of those advanced techniques do you really feel you could pull off in a real situation? My guess is maybe a handful if any. Most people even martial artists are going to revert to the basics of combat. That's why it is so important to learn the basics. But really you could learn the basics on your own. It only takes a few times of being kicked in the nut sack, to realize you don't want to give the guy a full profile, and you need find a way to counter that. A buddy of mine that I used to play fight with in grade school, and clean up to and after highschool. Would routinely kick me in the nuts, everytime I went for the roundhouse kick. I learned real fast it's not a good idea to do that kick, at least not against him. He had longer legs. It didn't take a karate, or kung-fu instructor to teach me that. I learned that on my own. So while you can learn more intricate things training from an instructor, the basics you probably could develop on your own, and become effective. It gets really old for me, hearing all the time, that you have to have an instructor for everything. When it's simply not true in my opinion. I like training at a dojo, but I have and still do learn things on my own. If your not, you aren't learning, you being taught. You have to learn to think for yourself, or you'll always just be a student mimmicking moves. Not all techniques work the same for everybody, and sometimes you have to change them, you can't do that, if you don't also think and learn on your own. That's my humble opinion.:asian:


 
See, IMHO, there is a difference between the old Masters and someone who wants to learn via DVD.  The dvd student, is likely looking for an easy way to train.  I mean think about it....train at home when you want, vs. getting on the mat and putting in some blood, sweat and tears.  They're probably going to watch the video and assume that now they're an expert in (insert art here). 

The Masters went out and tested their stuff.  Look at the Kajukenbo founders.  5 people from various arts, getting together and testing each other art.  Kenpo vs. boxing, Kenpo vs. Judo, Judo vs. Boxing.  Each of the founders came from a different background, so they tested their art against each other, found techs. that worked the best and thus, Kaju was born.  Back then, if someone got their butt handed to them, it was back to the drawing board.  Highly unlikely that a dvd student is going to do that today.


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2009)

"Because the founder was a freaking genius and nobody can ever do that, because nobody will ever be that smart or that good???"

Just to add onto this.  I don't think its as crazy as you made it sound.  If we look at some of the past masters, as well as those that are living today, to find a dvd student that is on the same level as them....I'd bet 1 in a million.  If someone could watch a Larry Tatum dvd set (and nothing against Tatum BTW) and think that they're going to be on his level or the level of Ed Parker, by watching a dvd, well, IMHO, those people are living a fantasy.  

Just my .02


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 31, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> If you knew anything about amateur boxing, which you don't, as is obvious by you citing wikipedia, then you would know that the Golden Gloves is open to anyone over the age of I believe 8. Over 16 is just for open class fighters. 16 and under fight under the title of Junior Olympian. Please never cite wikipedia again.


Please never start a patently stupid thread again.  
Please never make false claims about being a junior olympian again.
Please never make racist or sexist comments again.
Please never post about things that you obviously are uninformed about.

Citing wikipedia is not in bad taste.  Your behavior on the other hand is.

Daniel


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## just2kicku (Mar 31, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> As far as martial arts go, is there really anything you can't learn on your own (alone in the sense that you don't have a proper instructor, not that you don't have a sparring partner) besides things like how to do a proper horse stance and silly things like that?
> 
> When I think about it, it just seems to me like most martial arts in general mainly teach people improve their reflexes, reaction time, and coordination, which are all things one can do if they use their common sense when training. Things like joint-locks and grappling techniques to me seem like they could be self-taught from either watching videos of others, reading a martial arts guide, or even just coming up with stuff on your own, provided you have a partner you can try your ideas on.
> 
> I guess theoretically it is possible, as that is how people come up with new styles of martial arts, but what do you think?



 I think you answered your own question. Could you learn boxing from a book? Except for silly things like a jab or uppercut or overhand right? You said you wanted to laugh at the thought of learning from a book. What the HELL do you think we're doing now? 

Do you not see how ignorant you sound with your white, sexist and gay comments? And then to back pedal in your own thread makes you sound 100% ignorant. Like I said before, do some homework and then come back. I think the majority of the people hear have done just that, their homework. Not a whole lot of people jump into an art without doing any homework and research on it at all.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 31, 2009)

Indeed.

I've been following this thread since it started, but I haven't commented because what is there to say? Clearly this thread has been answered.

You can learn _about_ martial arts from a book or documentary.

You can only learn martial arts through personal instruction.


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## GBlues (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, I guess I really don't have anything to come back with to actually give a good reply to, Rich with. Now that I have read his post a second time, and had a cup of coffee this morning, there isn't much I can say to his Devil's, Devils Advocate post. But I'm gonna try anyways.

[/quote]
Well, not that no one, but it does not mean everyone. From my experience, there are too many who think they know it and walk in to a club to test themselves or try to test it on the street only to find out the real hard way that it does not work. 

So now time for more Devil to the Devil. Let us assume that you go out and practice on your own. Then you get into a real knife fight and either die or so serious injured you might wish you were dead. And your defense was that this guy on the internet told me it was ok to do this on my own. So, now your family comes along reads your notes and then checks the internet and takes me to court because they are upset you were injured or killed. So, I loose everything because I did not tell you to get proper instruction or refused to reply to the topic at all. 

Yes, I think on lots of layers for self defense at all times. [/quote]


So this is where I would like to start. This is a good point that you bring up. Especially in the first paragraph. About what they taught themselves not working. It is also true, that many times blackbelts get into altercations, and get the snot kicked out them, even though they were taught by somebody, that supposedly knew something. Yet, even after being taught self-defense, you can still get ya butt kicked by a guy that picks up a rock, and bashes you in the back of the head repeatedly till you stop moving. You learn real fast, that what you learned aint the way things go down, when it matters. Seriously, the way most people are taught how to fight, in a dojo, is not the way it goes down in the street. Really in my opinion, I really think that often times being instructed gives people a false sense of security. So that having been said, that doesn't mean that, that will happen to an individual that has had "proper instruction". It just means that it is still a possibility. As much as the guy who trained himself? Well, probably not, but it is still there. 

So, to your second paragraph, the being sued part.....well, I would imagine the same would be true, if the man took your advise and got "proper instruction", and got seriously injured or killed. He could make the argument, that because he took your advise and went to a dojo to learn from an instructor, that he got beat up so badly because he took your advise, and should have just gone ahead and developed his own personal form of combat for himself. You see my point? That's a no win there. Your screwed from the word go in that scenario, because no matter what you say, it potentially could come back to bite ya in the ***. LOL!


[/quote]
Whta is more ridiculous is that more people think they can learn to fight without ever being in a fight. 

Everyone drives a car, so they think they can run a care company. 

Everyone has a check book and credit card, yet for some reason less people think they can handle investment banking. But there are lots of people who think they can. [/quote]

I agree 100% with this statement. It does take being in a fight, to know what one is all about, and to learn from that experience, means being honest with yourself, not always an easy thing to do, when peoples egos get in the way.

[/quote]
I find it more ridiculous that people think they should teach themselves. I have taught lots of stuff to me. I have done things instinctively from basics that ended up being applied elsewhere. But in the end I had an instructor or instructors who helped me along. 


Note: Knowing a Techinique and knowing when or the timing of the technique are totally different. [/quote]

This is where I will disagree with you just a tad. My point being this. Unless your practicing a technique at full speed, your timing will never be spot on. A good example of this is when I was studying Aikido. There is a technique where the opponent is trying to attack you with an overhead chop, which at the time I could only assume would later, be a defense against an overhead attack from a say a stick or a baseball bat. Anyways, the defense was that I had to charge in, grab his arm before he started the downward motion, so that I could break his balance forcing him backwards. ( I'm not describing it very well, but you get the point I think). We were practicing this technique from about three feet apart I would say. Supposed to be doing it at half speed. The problem is I had to move at 3/4 speed or almost full speed, to get there in time, and I was still late. My point has always been if you can't do it at half speed when it doesn't matter, you'll never do it when your opponent is doing it at full speed, and he 's trying to kill you. It's not going to happen. Your heads getting busted open by the baseball bat. You don't get good timing, by your opponent moving at half speed, and you moving at 3/4's is my point.


[/quote]I think Videos are fine for people who already have instruction in that art. I think they are fine for reference material to refresh your mind, or to give you a jump start after you understnad some basics, but the instructor will guide and dine tune and adjust as required. 

You second point above is valid. Just by having an instructor it does nto mean you have it all and know how to apply it. But it does give you the idea of your own workings and home work as well as the instructions of your instructor. Life expereince is the only real test. But most people train to not test in the real life experience. [/quote]

I agree with this again. As far as life experience. Nothing teaches you better to get out of the way of being punched than actually being punched. You learn real quick that you don't like it. 




[/quote]Well, this will seem confusing. I don't do advanced techniques. I only do basics. But, the basics I do, are considered advanced by even those with a black belt in the systems I teach. So, the answer is either all are advanced or there are no advanced. 

I teach some basic knife defenses. When asked like I almost get, what I would do in "X" situation, it is not what I just taught. this upsets many confuses most, and frustrates a lot. But I go on to explain, that what I do and what they do would be different as my basics are way above their basics. What I consider normal and obvious most people cannot even see or comprehend. I do break down the timing aspect and the technique changes, and explain that what I taught them will get them more experience to move forward in their training and then from there they can move forward again. I then even let them try the application I did. They get cut. They wonder how I did. I show them again. It is an issue of knowing when and how, not just how. [/quote]

This one does make me raise an eyebrow. Not to be rude or discourteous, but it does sound a little bragadocious to me. The basics are the basics. They are the foundation upon which your whole system works from. There is a reason for why they are called the basics, because they aren't advanced. So to say, that you have advanced techniques that to you are basic, but to everyone else, is so far advanced that, they still struggle with them. Would mean that your doing advanced material and saying that your comfortable enough with those techniques, that they now feel like basic material, correct? But I will agree it is not just a matter of how, it is a matter of when and how. 





[/quote]This is a true statement. And those that do not revert to basics, will do nothing. But here is the caveat, your basics and mine will not be the same. [/quote]

This is true also, as everyone has varying levels of skill. 




[/quote]This is very true. But most who train my themselves will not spend the time on weight transfer in stances, but instead will strat wavign their arms around and never have their arms tied to their body and a solid frame work and then wonder why it does not work.[/quote]

Hmm...this one I don't know. When I was about 21 or so I was dating this girl who's dad was a martial arts instructor. She was showing me how her dad taught a kick from the neutral bow. It consisted of transferring your stance to a forward bow, and then kicking with the rear leg, forward at your opponent. She had informed me that, that particular kick was in the beginning very difficult for her, because she had a hard time with the forward bow. My response was "Why did you have to be taught a forward bow, to do that kick? The only way you can kick that way is to do a forward bow. Period." She didn't understand what I meant so I said watch. I did the neutral bow stance and kicked from it. I didn't think about the stance change, because it's automatic, for anybody that wants to perform that kick, they have to move that way. Once shown, she understood. But they had spent hours learning the forward bow. To learn one kick. When in reality all they needed was to be shown the kick. Now, are there other uses for the forward bow, absolutely, but for that kick, not needed to be taught. So, some things you don't have a choice in the matter, it's the only way you can do it.



[/quote]For, me it was just once. I guess you are stronger than I am.  [/quote]

Hehe  Yeah well this was back in the day, when I could kick someone in the face. LOL! Not anymore. HAHA. I learned to keep the kicks low. And not turn my back, even for a roundhouse kick, ( I think everybody calls it something else, I was taught it was roundhouse. But I've heard house kick, and crescent kick, rear wheel kick etc....) LOL! Watched to many Van Damme movies back then. LOL! 

[/quote]I agree, if you keep getting hit you need to learn a counter. But if you have no clue because you are always out of position then this is where your training stops. Either from your own point or from stagnation or from death when it ultimately fails.[/quote]

What about drunken boxing? Those guys always look like they are out of position, yet they can perform some pretty good defenses. Perhaps that is where it comes from. A guy who moved weird and figured a way to make it work?




[/quote]Ah but did you learn that maybe if you started your roundhouse kick and then changed it to a full body block he would kick your shin and he might no try that again, which would open up your round house kick to be an option. Instead you learned not to do something. Instead you should have learned how to move and counter or position and attack, or to bait and set up.[/quote]

Nah I learned to wait for him to try the same and got him back, a few times. Was the last time we tried those moves on each other. LOL! 

[/quote]So your learnings for round house kicks stopped there, and possible got worse as you might not practice them as much any more.[/quote]

Truthfully I have found very little use, for myself personally, with all of the fancy kicks. I don't kick higher than the waste anymore, and I very seldom use a roundhouse kick. Just not very effective, in my opinion.

(* I have broken up the next into fragments to address each idea or comment *)

[/quote]You can also learn basics faster and easier. [/quote]

Perhaps, if the instructor teaches you them, in a easy to learn manner. What I have found is that more often than not, when you start at a school, even in the basics class, you neve start at the beginning, you start somewhere's in the middle of the class, and so you miss out on the basic stuff the other students have already learned and are moving on, so you end up having to play catch up.


[/quote]While I have known a few street fighters who knew a couple of traps and strikes and could hit hard, they were efective yes. But once they were out classed they were very ineffective. So, effective for what? 

Of course as stated above having an instructor and never actually testing your skill set is only marginally better. I do not advocate fights, but controller sparring, with someone to call it when it gets to rough so people can see and feel and learn. [/quote]

True, true, but don't underestimate the street fighter. They got dirty little secrets and tricks, that can tip the scales.



[/quote]It gets really old for me to listen to people who have never been in a fight and trained with an instructor to those who have just trained themselves, pontificate about the values and effectivness of a training method without any real expereince in it. 

I know you might say how do I have experience with those who taught themselves? It is easy. They come talk to me and test themselves on me and find it does not work. Most go away and do not come back. Some come back once or twice, but most make the comment that he is too big or too strong or too tall but I KNOW IT WILL WORK. To this I say I have smaller guys in my class that have and do make it work, as they have trained and tested themselves in a controlled manner. [/quote]

Testing something under controlled circumstances, means you have an idea of what will happen when said theory, or in this case martial art is used. But until you have real world, (outside of a control), you won't know, if it applies to real world applications, or if it's just good for teaching people, to pay the rent you know, ( don't take offense not directed at you rich, just a generalization, on the testing. I'm sure you have real world data, from personal life experience. However, we are mainly talking about people that don't. SO don't be offended. GOD I hate the P.C. world always having to cover your butt you know. LOL!).

I will say this though. And maybe I'm wrong. I don't want to make an art work. When I think of that phrase to my mind it means hard to use. I think a martial arts system should be relatively easy to use. As far as skill learned. If you HAVE to make it work, it means it's not working for you. I see myself trying force the system to work instead of it just working. I don't know if that made any sense. 




[/quote]Your opinion. 

My opinion. 

We both have one. [/quote]

Ditto, and I find yours as well some of the other posters on here to be very valuable.



[/quote]Doing your homework is a very important part of learning. Practicing on your own is great. Practicing with a friend is even better. But this assumes a small amount of time a week or two from class to class with you working with others or even less time. This is good training. [/quote]

Yeah, I agree. I will take it one step further, and say that if you have a video from the system it's even better, for practicing on your own or with a friend, cause then you can watch it, and make sure your doing it right for when you back to class. 

[/quote]This is very true. Thinking for yourself is not mutually exclusive to haivng an instructor. I would hope that over time you think for yourself, but not right up front. Example of this is basics math. 1 + 1 = 2. We learn this and then move on. We are taught this and then learn move stuff. We even more on to multiplication and subtraction and even division, and then years later, we learn about story problems and then years after that we learn about proofs. 

So, if we asked the kindergarten student why is 1 + 1 =2? they will not know. And even if you explain on of the proofs to them, only teh very exceptional could repeat it back and those that repeat it back mot likely would not be able to apply the idea another subject. Sometimes you just learn something so you have blocks to work with, and then later you can learn why those blocks fit together.[/quote]

True 

[/quote]Understanding the attributes of the weapon you are using also means understanding the attribute of the technique you have and also the attributes of the opponent you have. Adjusting is good. Learning to adjust is good. Learning to adjust on the fly is better. But only working with yourself or your untrained partner, one will not get this.[/quote]

No, perhaps not, but you can get some of it. I learned alot from my buddy. He was faster, stronger, and more athletically gifted. I learned alot, about what to do, and what not to do, when in a real life situation. Never used it on him, cause I wouldn't have a practice partner anymore. But, basically I learned that when your out gunned and out classed, cheat. LOL! 


[/quote]I am not sure you came across humble and I know I sure did not.  

But that is what we get when we play Devil's Advocate and Devil Devil's Advocate.  [/quote]

Well, I don't know about that. I give my opinion as I see it. It is humble, as it is just honest, as I feel yours was. If it's not taken that way, well then I'm sorry. Read it for what it is just one man's opinion. Like my father always says. Opinions are like *******s everybody's got one. LOL!


Peace
:asian:


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## GBlues (Mar 31, 2009)

SHIHANSMURF:

I love the name by the way. Makes me laugh. I have to ask you this, from your post. Are you saying that you can't learn anything unless some one teaches it to you? I mean I'm a self taught guitar player for the most part, and pretty good at it. I know some individuals who are 100% self taught and they are phenomenal. I mean really good. What about self taught pianists? Anything can be self taught. It's like saying that you have to go to school  to learn how to fix your car. How many backyard mechanics are there in the world? I just find it extremely funny how there are so many things in this world that you actually can learn on your own, that are just as complicated if not more so than martial arts, but martial arts you HAVE to have someone teach you. I don't understand that thinking. I don't necassarily think it's a good idea, but, I mean, in theory it is possible.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 31, 2009)

GBlues said:


> Perhaps, if the instructor teaches you them, in a easy to learn manner. What I have found is that more often than not, when you start at a school, even in the basics class, you never start at the beginning, you start somewhere's in the middle of the class, and so you miss out on the basic stuff the other students have already learned and are moving on, so you end up having to play catch up.


Block teaching is the method you're referring to.  Not every school does it, but many do.  I do not care for it for precisely the reasons you mentioned above.  I think that block teaching can be effective for a student who is already an advanced practitioner of other, similar arts, but for a beginner it is a disservice.

This missing out on the basics means that the student never really knows where they are in the course.  Generally, by the time they are finally taught the basics, they have picked up bad habits that will need additional training to get rid of, training that they will likely not receive until the habit is so ingrained that it actually prevents the student from executing the more advanced material which requires solid basics to build upon.

I've sat in on classes at enough schools where the training was so bad that the student was literally better off learning from a well thought out and well produced video/distance learning class; they may actually get a better grip on the basics and not be out so much cash.

Daniel


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## morph4me (Mar 31, 2009)

:deadhorse


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## blindsage (Mar 31, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Please never start a patently stupid thread again.
> Please never make false claims about being a junior olympian again.
> Please never make racist or sexist comments again.
> Please never post about things that you obviously are uninformed about.
> ...


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## Ninebird8 (Mar 31, 2009)

Your black belt is on its way through the mail...please place it on the shelf next to your videos....it will make a nice room addition.


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## shihansmurf (Mar 31, 2009)

GBlues said:


> SHIHANSMURF:
> 
> I love the name by the way. Makes me laugh. I have to ask you this, from your post. Are you saying that you can't learn anything unless some one teaches it to you? I mean I'm a self taught guitar player for the most part, and pretty good at it. I know some individuals who are 100% self taught and they are phenomenal. I mean really good. What about self taught pianists? Anything can be self taught. It's like saying that you have to go to school to learn how to fix your car. How many backyard mechanics are there in the world? I just find it extremely funny how there are so many things in this world that you actually can learn on your own, that are just as complicated if not more so than martial arts, but martial arts you HAVE to have someone teach you. I don't understand that thinking. I don't necassarily think it's a good idea, but, I mean, in theory it is possible.


 
First off. Thanks for the compliment on the name. It came from my buddies juniors class at a tourney. I had ripped my Gi top and had to borrow one. All I could snag was a blue top, which combined with my white pants lead to the senseismurf knickname. When I made yondan I thought it appropriate that I promote my handle.

Now on to the topic.

Could you teach yourself to skydive? Sure. I wouldn't. I mean skydiving isn't even as remotely as complicated as martial arts. I jump. I do martial arts.  I had some one teach me both. Each of them, when applied in a serious situation have significant reprecussions for failure. If you mess up playing a song on your guitar what is the worst that happens? Brittney Spears gets a new ballad?

Look, I think that a person certainly could teach themselves martial arts from books and videos starting from zero knowledge. They just wouldn't be very good at it. There are so many nuances that exist that make it a skill set that self teaching is not sufficient.  How can you expect to learn to learn to apply your techniques against a resisting opponent if you are learning in a vacuum? If you don't know what you are doing to begin with, then you don't know when you are training wrong.

I've encountered several people over the years that are the product of these distance learning, no teacher, no interaction with other students, martial arts. The simple fact was that without exception they weren't worth a crap as martial artists. They couldn't perform basics, kata, or fight on par with martial artists that came from a more traditional teacher/student relationship. Now I'm open to having my position changed by encountering the exception to the rule. I'm sure that somewhere there is the greatest thing since sliced bread who happens to be walking death that learned martial arts by reading "How to Kill a Man and weed your Garden in 15 easy steps", but untill then I remain unconvinced.

To re-state.  I don't think that the complexity of martial arts training is the mitigating factor that prevents it from being self-taught. Rather it is the nature of the training itself. The skills are by their nature interactive. They require another person to perform to their logical conclusion, afterall one doesn't fight oneself. In addition, the application of the skills in either competition or actual fighting has serious reprecussions that make the margin of error significantly more exacting that most of the skills you mentioned.

Just my view.
Mark


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## Flying Crane (Mar 31, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> ...the greatest thing since sliced bread who happens to be walking death...


 

I wanna be "walking death"...


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## Flying Crane (Mar 31, 2009)

ya know, it's kind of funny that this thread is continuing on right now, because I think I may be witness to this in truth, right now.

I belong to a gym/healthclub near my office, where I train on my own, when I'm not with my instructors.  I go in and practice early in the morning before work, or I take an extended lunch break and head over to practice my forms or work on the heavybag and stuff.

Lately, i've seen this other guy who comes in, and he is clearly trying to practice a martial art of some kind.  But he seems to be working extensively out of a book of some kind.  I haven't gotten a good look at it so I'm not sure what it is, but it appears to be some martial arts federation training manual or something.

He stands there and ponders the book, and then he steps back and tries to do a few moves, and it's quite awkward an just plain wrong on every level.  I don't know what system he is trying to learn, but everthing that I've seen him do is so wrong that it is useless.  He's not even close to getting anything right.

I could be wrong about what he is doing.  It is possible that he is actually training with a teacher, and simply using the book as a reference.  But if that is true, he is so much a beginner that I think he must retain nothing from his lessons.  If he was training with a teacher, I would expect that he would work on the things that he has already learned, even if it's nothing more than some basic kicks and punches and blocks and stepping.  But I've seen him work on what appears to be a kata, and from how he works on it, I just cannot help but think that he is simply trying to decipher from the book, without any guidance.  It is terrible, plain and simple.  I think he doesn't understand what a kata even is, because it seems like he is just adopting poses from the book, without any sense of the movement and transition.  And he is practically falling down with everything he does.

And he sort of jumps back and forth from one thing to another, without any directed focus.  He will throw a couple of kicks (spinning hook kicks today), very awkwardly and ineffectually.  then he will take a minute or two and try to do the kata.  Then he will do some sort of "bob and weave" kind of thing.  Then he will try and throw a couple of sweeps, again completely ineffectually.  And he won't focus on anything. Instead he just jumps back and forth every minute or two, to another topic.  I think he is trying to figure out if there is something he can grasp, and he just cannot.

I've considered asking him what he is up to, and maybe offering some advice.  I haven't done so, for a couple of reasons.

1.  my training time is limited, and I am there to practice.  I don't have time to engage in conversation if it's not necessary.

2.  I sort of feel like it's none of my business.  If he has a teacher whom he trusts, I don't want to undermine that. Maybe he's just a total complete beginner and has no "knack" for this stuff, altho he appears to be perhaps reasonably athletic.

at any rate, if he approaches me I will see if I can find out what he's up to and offer some advice based on his situation.  Until then I just let him do his thing, while I do my thing.

Or maybe I need to step up and deliver the truth.  I can't quite decide yet.

But my point is, if he is truly going about this thru a book (and maybe he's got a video that he watches at home, I dunno), then I can't imagine he will ever be any better than he is right now.  It's really kind of painful to watch, and I sort of feel bad for the guy.  I just don't know what he's thinking, or what he thinks he can accomplish in this way.

Stop kidding yourselves, folks.  This is different from learning to play the guitar.  The ramifications of doing it poorly are much much more severe.  If you want to learn the martial arts, you gotta have a good teacher.  There is simply no other way around it.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Mar 31, 2009)

Personally, I'm of the opinion that you cannot learn a martial art from books or videos.

Not effectively anyway.

Take the most basic of Kenpo SD techniques: Delayed Sword.

Looks real simple doesn't it? Step back and block, kick the groin, and strike the neck.

Well, it isn't.

I'm no master or even an expert in any sense of the word. I am, however someone who *A*) has formally trained in an obscure bird-style of Kung Fu and WTF Tae Kwon Do, *B*) Was once an EPAK Purple Belt and ready to go for my Blue and Green in a double-grading after having formally trained for about a year or two (don't remember when I started; age will do that to you); and *C*) Is now an Orange Belt again, having gone back into the Art and formally trained for about six months [twice a week in class; four days a week at home]. As such, I have loved the martial arts and been involved either formally or otherwise since 1987.

And I'm still getting the hang of Delayed Sword!

The weight transfers as one shifts from the neutral bow to the cat stance and back to the neutral bow... that I'm still trying to master. The subtle torquing of the shoulders and waist between each movement... that I'm still trying to master. The subtle leg-check when you land with the handsword... that I'm still trying to master.

And the fact that I'm at least just competent with the tech comes from A) having hands-on instruction, and B) lots of partner training with people who understand the attack and defense!

What about Glancing Salute (another basic)? At what angle does your forearm strike his tricep? 45 degrees? More than that? Less than that? What are the timing breaks between each major and minor movement? Same goes for Five Swords; try executing that without understanding the timing breaks! And don't even get me started about something as 'fun' as Crashing Wings or Grip of Death!

It's extremely difficult to pick these impotant subtleties up from a book or vid. I know; I have tried. You may be able to merely mimic what you see in a vid. Trying to do so from pictures in a book, on the other hand, is near impossible (Can't see most weight transfers, angles of entry/exit, minor moves, or timing breaks).

Just what I believe and am finding out daily as I continue training. 

TCG

BTW: I was once stupid enough to try learning EPAK from Tatum's Panther videos. At best, my mimicry was but a hollow shell of what he executed so brilliantly. Flash but no substance behind it...

PS: Rob, Rich, Daniel... excellent posts!


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## Thesemindz (Mar 31, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> If you knew anything about amateur boxing, which you don't, as is obvious by you citing wikipedia, then you would know that the Golden Gloves is open to anyone over the age of I believe 8. Over 16 is just for open class fighters. 16 and under fight under the title of Junior Olympian. Please never cite wikipedia again.


 
Good luck with that pal. Boo hoo, you don't like wikipedia.

I may very well be wrong about the age requirements for golden gloves boxing, but from what I can see, under age 16 they are silver gloves boxers, or junior golden glove boxers. Now, maybe you have some other information, but so far, you haven't presented it. At least I cited my source, though you may disagree with it. Of course, you didn't actually challenge my assertion either. You said you were a golden gloves boxer, when I challenged that, you changed it to Junior Olympian. Fine.

I also notice you didn't address any of the other, more important, aspects of my post. Of course, I suppose you don't have any evidence to back up your other ridiculous positions either. 

Nice try though. Stick around on the internet for a few more years, you'll figure it out.


-Rob


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## just2kicku (Mar 31, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Good luck with that pal. Boo hoo, you don't like wikipedia.
> 
> I may very well be wrong about the age requirements for golden gloves boxing, but from what I can see, under age 16 they are silver gloves boxers, or junior golden glove boxers. Now, maybe you have some other information, but so far, you haven't presented it. At least I cited my source, though you may disagree with it. Of course, you didn't actually challenge my assertion either. You said you were a golden gloves boxer, when I challenged that, you changed it to Junior Olympian. Fine.
> 
> ...


 
As Bruce Lee once said..... just kidding Rob!


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## searcher (Mar 31, 2009)

Wow, I have not been in this thread for a while and now I step in and it is a mess.

The bottom line is this.    Books and videos are a great companion to a live instructor.   They can be learned from, but it will be a somewhat shallow representation of the techniques.

Now I know there is a bunch of groups that have home study programs and I think some of them turn out some pretty good folks, but if I had to guess, the people that are pretty good, had previous instruction or they had a live instructor to help them out on occasion.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 31, 2009)

GBlues said:


> Hey rich I really want to respond to your post, but let me ask this really quick. Before I respond to your post could you tell me how you break up the quotes??? Been wondering how to do that for awhile, and still haven't figured it out. Tried a few different things and it just gets all screwy. Seems like it makes it easier to respond to specific posts. THanks I'll give a good response after you tell me how to break this up.





MJS said:


> You need to use the following:
> 
> Use these [ ] with the word quote in between.  Use that at the beginning.  Do the same thing at the end of the paragraph you want to quote, with a / before the word quote.
> 
> ...




MJS gives good instructions.

Here is what I do in particular. 

I highlight the "[q uote=GBlues;1149003]" without the space and then I type the Control Key and the "C" key at the same time to copy it. I then move the cursor to the area I want to Paste it and type the Control Key and the "V" key at the same time.  I do the same thing for the " /quote " end quote portion as well. 

Thanks


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## TigerCraneGuy (Apr 1, 2009)

And oh yeah... there is absolutely nothing stupid about the humble horse stance... provided you have someone to open your eyes to its multiple applications!

Ironically, given the nature of this discussion, I recently found a pictorial sequence in BB Magazine (I know, I know... learning from a book?!! Shock! Horror!) that presented a Krav Maga expert employing the... ahem... 'silly' horse stance to initiate a counter against a knife-to-the-throat-from-the-rear attack. Very similar opening move to what we do in Kenpo when attacked from behind, i.e. stabilise the base. 

And Krav Maga, as I'm sure the OP is well aware, is a modern and deadly RBSD system that commandos train in, not a TMA that emphasizes 'silly things' like the horse stance.

My point: Don't be so quick to put down what you don't fully understand. So much good stuff out there... you just need an open mind, my friend.

Kind Regards,
TCG


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 1, 2009)

TigerCraneGuy said:


> And oh yeah... there is absolutely nothing stupid about the humble horse stance... provided you have someone to open your eyes to its multiple applications!



The very first stance you learn in ninpo is ichimonji-no-kamae.
And if you are new to ninpo, it might look silly to you. I readily admit my first thought was *'WTF...*?'






Not only did it look a bit silly to me, but it felt awkward too.
But I practise it at home several times per week, and of course in class. And now after 2 months, I've noticed that it actually isn't that silly.
There are several advantages to that stance, but my main observation is that it is a transitionary stance. I.e. it is often something you go through from one movement to another (from block to attack for example).

By learning this stance, you sort of have a 'zero' point between different techniques. If you learn to execute things coming out of this kamae, and use it as the 'end' position after a technique, you will eventually be able to chain various techniques together in one fluid motion without having to interrupt or worry about how you go from one thing to another.

Then again I have only been doing this (ninpo) for 2 months so I may be wrong and there will probably be more to it than this. But so far this is my main observation and it made me change my opinion on 'weird' looking kamae.
These things were developed in an era when MA were still tested in life or death personal combat. So if some of the stuff survived hundreds of years in multiple ryuha, there is probably a good reason for it to be in the curriculum, and we shouldn't discard it just because we don't immediately see the point.


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## GBlues (Apr 1, 2009)

Uhm...Just to set the record straight. It depends on what bar your performing at. At least in Arizona. If your playing in the wrong place, and you suck, you could actually get more than a few beer bottles bouncing off of your head. Doesn't happen quite so much anymore to my understanding, but it still does from time to time. IF you ain't got it together, then you ain't gonna have a fun time. That's my only issue with this comment. Bad things do happen to bad guitarists, and it aint given Brittney Spears a new ballad. LOL!



shihansmurf said:


> First off. Thanks for the compliment on the name. It came from my buddies juniors class at a tourney. I had ripped my Gi top and had to borrow one. All I could snag was a blue top, which combined with my white pants lead to the senseismurf knickname. When I made yondan I thought it appropriate that I promote my handle.
> 
> Now on to the topic.
> 
> ...


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## searcher (Apr 1, 2009)

Since the horse stance was brought up in the OP and a few others, I would like to address its silliness.    Both of the styles of karate I train in and even my TKD have a great emphasis on the horse, for both training and its use in fighting.    Most forget that you move through the"silly" horse when going from one stance to another and during the performance of many techniques.    Not to mention that it can make your thighs hard as rock.   Look at the Hung Gar guys, they have a great horse and they are hard in the legs.


And on boxing, ages 8-15 box in Silver Gloves, ages 16-32 box in Golden Gloves.    Nowadays, they also have a Masters Division for Golden Gloves for all of the guys who want to continue competing, but don't want to turn pro.    I boxed GG for 7 years(yes a drop in a bucket) and I have coached boxing since 1997.    So I have been around it for a little while.


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## Zero (Apr 1, 2009)

But maybe the Op has a very valid point?
What about Kenzo Yohun Matagushi, who excluded himself from all society at the age of 14 and spent the next 12 years living in a dark cell and training constantly in the arts of fighting (with his only contact with the outside world being his blind mother who would bring him food (dried shitake mushrooms and raw horse flesh) and empty his latrine).  Matagushi went on to be the undefeated Pride heavyweight champion for 7 years running and now has a cult-like status in Japan, with many Hollywood "A" stars, possibly even Rod Schneider, having trained in his personal self defence system.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 1, 2009)

Zero said:


> But maybe the Op has a very valid point?
> What about Kenzo Yohun Matagushi, who excluded himself from all society at the age of 14 and spent the next 12 years living in a dark cell and training constantly in the arts of fighting (with his only contact with the outside world being his blind mother who would bring him food (dried shitake mushrooms and raw horse flesh) and empty his latrine).  Matagushi went on to be the undefeated Pride heavyweight champion for 7 years running and now has a cult-like status in Japan, with many Hollywood "A" stars, possibly even Rod Schneider, having trained in his personal self defence system.



April fools day things need to be at least somewhat believable...


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 1, 2009)

Zero said:


> But maybe the Op has a very valid point?
> What about Kenzo Yohun Matagushi, who excluded himself from all society at the age of 14 and spent the next 12 years living in a dark cell and training constantly in the arts of fighting (with his only contact with the outside world being his blind mother who would bring him food (dried shitake mushrooms and raw horse flesh) and empty his latrine).



Are you sure the name is correct? I tried googling several permutations, but turned up nothing.

EDIT: D'oh. April fools. Damn. I almost made it through the day without falling for it


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## Zero (Apr 1, 2009)

It was Roy Schneider, wasn't it??! I knew that was going one too far for you!

Shoot, I see I called him "Rod" in my post, that must have been what blew it!
I need a break from work, I'm going mad, I'm off to the gym!


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## Thesemindz (Apr 1, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> As Bruce Lee once said..... just kidding Rob!


 
Now *that* made me laugh.

Thanks.


-Rob


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## shihansmurf (Apr 1, 2009)

GBlues said:


> Uhm...Just to set the record straight. It depends on what bar your performing at. At least in Arizona. If your playing in the wrong place, and you suck, you could actually get more than a few beer bottles bouncing off of your head. Doesn't happen quite so much anymore to my understanding, but it still does from time to time. IF you ain't got it together, then you ain't gonna have a fun time. That's my only issue with this comment. Bad things do happen to bad guitarists, and it aint given Brittney Spears a new ballad. LOL!


 
In that case ya gotta have Patrick Swayze to get you outta there.
Every Road House needs a cooler.....

As an aside, I do think that a person that has a solid level of knowledge and ability in the skill in question can learn and develop from self directed study from books and video, I just don't think that a student can go from zero to hero that way. If a student is already an experienced practitioner of a striking art, for example, then a video on kicking tips will be usefull.  If a person is already good at Shotokan then learning Unsu from a tape, in conjunction with feedback from training partners, is fully effective. Someone with no weapons background trying to learn Arnis from  a DVD and no teacher would be a recipe for disaster, in my view. The way I see it, books, videos, and the like are great reference material, wonderful support to a live instructor, and outstanding adjunct to live training, but never a replacement.

Just my view
Mark

I can't believe I got to reference RoadHouse. Now my day is complete.


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## Haze (Apr 1, 2009)

The first martial artists had no instructor or he would not have been the first martial artist.

Through out time arts have been passed on and tweaked. But it had to start somewhere.

Now, you can struggle along discovering things and trying to refine them and discard things as you find they do not work or are just to complicated to pull off in a real situation or you can go study under someone who has been taught and can pass it on. This method seems to saves a lot of time.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 1, 2009)

Haze said:


> The first martial artists had no instructor or he would not have been the first martial artist.
> 
> Through out time arts have been passed on and tweaked. But it had to start somewhere.


 
You don't actually believe that there was a *"first martial artist"* do you?  and you don't actually believe that it *"had to start somewhere"* do you?


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## jks9199 (Apr 1, 2009)

Sure, there was a "first" martial artist.  Of course, his name was probably something like Grog... and the only thing that made him a "martial artist" was that he was the first one to figure out a slightly more effective way to bonk someone over the head than an instinctive flailing -- and maybe figured out a way to explain it to someone else.


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## GBlues (Apr 1, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> In that case ya gotta have Patrick Swayze to get you outta there.
> Every Road House needs a cooler.....
> 
> As an aside, I do think that a person that has a solid level of knowledge and ability in the skill in question can learn and develop from self directed study from books and video, I just don't think that a student can go from zero to hero that way. If a student is already an experienced practitioner of a striking art, for example, then a video on kicking tips will be usefull. If a person is already good at Shotokan then learning Unsu from a tape, in conjunction with feedback from training partners, is fully effective. Someone with no weapons background trying to learn Arnis from a DVD and no teacher would be a recipe for disaster, in my view. The way I see it, books, videos, and the like are great reference material, wonderful support to a live instructor, and outstanding adjunct to live training, but never a replacement.
> ...


 
Yeah. No I agree with all of you guys, that getting instruction from a good instructor is the way to go everytime. As far as videos and books, and the like go, if you have even a decent foundation you can actually get some very valuable information from them and use some of it to great effect. I think though that it isn't worth a plugged nickel if you don't have somebody to train with, a practice partner. Distance is key. The reality is that the first martial art was probably a grappling style I would think. If you look at animals and even young children, while yes they hit, they wrestle more than they do strike. It's a natural thing, when your young. At least from what I can see. Then some guy comes along who just flat sucks at grappling and says piss on that I'm gonna punch that dude in the face, and there came striking. You know, and it progressed from there. I'm not a 100% sure, but I do believe,( and correct me if I'm wrong), that Musashi was a self taught swordsman. So it is possible to teach yourself combat skills without even a book or dvd. I mean they didn't have dvd's back in those days. LOL! ANyways happy APril fools everybody!


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## MJS (Apr 1, 2009)

GBlues said:


> Yeah. No I agree with all of you guys, that getting instruction from a good instructor is the way to go everytime. As far as videos and books, and the like go, *if you have even a decent foundation you can actually get some very valuable information from them and use some of it to great effect.* I think though that it isn't worth a plugged nickel if you don't have somebody to train with, a practice partner. Distance is key. The reality is that the first martial art was probably a grappling style I would think. If you look at animals and even young children, while yes they hit, they wrestle more than they do strike. It's a natural thing, when your young. At least from what I can see. Then some guy comes along who just flat sucks at grappling and says piss on that I'm gonna punch that dude in the face, and there came striking. You know, and it progressed from there. I'm not a 100% sure, but I do believe,( and correct me if I'm wrong), that Musashi was a self taught swordsman. So it is possible to teach yourself combat skills without even a book or dvd. I mean they didn't have dvd's back in those days. LOL! ANyways happy APril fools everybody!


 
Bold part mine.  I agree with this.  For example, I have a few BJJ instructional tapes.  I also have grappling teachers.  So, while I don't use the tapes to learn from, I use them as a reference.  I may find something in the tape, and inquire about it with one of my teachers, and work it from there.  But, in this case, I'm working it live, with a teacher, who can correct mistakes, etc.


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## Zero (Apr 2, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Are you sure the name is correct? I tried googling several permutations, but turned up nothing.
> 
> EDIT: D'oh. April fools. Damn. I almost made it through the day without falling for it


 
Hey thanks Bruno@MT, that really made me laugh!!


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## Zero (Apr 2, 2009)

Okay, April fools crap and all that aside, I generallly agree with the premise that self training and learning from books, video etc, is fine once you are already at a certain level.  But maybe there are real examples of those who were so dedicated and gifted (mentally/physically) that almost starting from scratch they could hone themselves into a truely formidable fighter with great skill?

Take Miyamoto Musashi (real deal this time), reknowned as the greatest samurai of all time and probably one of the most lethal swordsman on a global basis.  WHile he was witness to fights and involved in a major battle at the age of 16 (I think), from this age, and with not a great deal of formal training (although he was trained in his youth by his father(?) and uncle in sword and jitte), he pretty much exilled himself to a life of exclusive training.  Spending much time on his own in the wilds experimenting and perfecting the art of sword fighting with katana.  Although there are varying accounts of his unorthodox methods and lack of "honor/sportmanship" in fighting, he was undefeated in live blade combat and attained a level where no one could better him.  This guy fought live blade, kill or be killed duels.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 2, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> You don't actually believe that there was a *"first martial artist"* do you? and you don't actually believe that it *"had to start somewhere"* do you?


The first martial artist (as we define martial artist in the west) would have been the first person to successfully *codify* numerous techniques into a *single body of knowledge* for the express purpose of *transmitting it to others**. * 

So from that standpoint, yes, someone would have been the first.  Before that, though, people certainly passed on the how to's of war and fighting as it pertained to their particular region.

Honestly, I really hate the term, 'martial artist' when applied in an historical or ancient world context.  It sound so.... hokey.  'Martial' artist is a modern term that came about when Asian fighting systems were brought to the west in the twentieth century, so far as I know at least.

Daniel


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 2, 2009)

Zero said:


> Take Miyamoto Musashi (real deal this time), reknowned as the greatest samurai of all time and probably one of the most lethal swordsman on a global basis.  WHile he was witness to fights and involved in a major battle at the age of 16 (I think), from this age, and with not a great deal of formal training (although he was trained in his youth by his father(?) and uncle in sword and jitte), he pretty much exilled himself to a life of exclusive training.  Spending much time on his own in the wilds experimenting and perfecting the art of sword fighting with katana.  Although there are varying accounts of his unorthodox methods and lack of "honor/sportmanship" in fighting, he was undefeated in live blade combat and attained a level where no one could better him.  This guy fought live blade, kill or be killed duels.



Yep. Moose is the real deal, and had the documented kills and the legacy to prove it.

But (there was going to be a but, of course )

- He did get a fairly thorough basic training in various weapons arts.
- He spent most of his waking time working on his skills instead of 1 hour distance learning per day.
- There is a reason everyone and his dog knows Musashi. He was truly exceptional. Even in his day, when sword fighting was important and every samurai learned the art, the vast majority, even the ones with a lifetime of formal training could not compare to him.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 2, 2009)

Zero said:


> Take Miyamoto Musashi (real deal this time), reknowned as the greatest samurai of all time and probably one of the most lethal swordsman on a global basis. WHile he was witness to fights and involved in a major battle at the age of 16 (I think), from this age, and with not a great deal of formal training (although he was trained in his youth by his father(?) and uncle in sword and jitte), he pretty much exilled himself to a life of exclusive training.


Not a great deal of formal training?  I'd question that.  

If dad and uncle trained him from the time he was a young child until he was sixteen, I'd say that that is quite a bit.  Keep in mind that in his day, many people learned a family style, or a style that was associated with a locale or region.  His training may not have been at a formal institution, but I'd be willing to bet that it was more formal and more comprehensive than what most westerners have, even after several years.

Daniel


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## blindsage (Apr 2, 2009)

Sooo, basically the Musashi example does not in anyway provide support for the OP.

Besides the fact that leaving all possible legendary embellishments aside, what if Musashi was this prodigy that without much training he was able to teach himself to be one of the greatest swordsmen in history?  Would that in any way back the assertion that the 99.9999999% of humanity that didn't have his gifts could replicate them, and don't need an instructor?  Probably not.


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 2, 2009)

I agree with the above posts about musashi, but I'll throw in a few other things.

According to Keji Tokitsu's research on Musashi, he drew the conclusion that Musashi did have much formal training with his father or other warriors that he may have encountered on his journey like at the hozoin temple or with the yagyu clan. Not to mention that this was an era where musashi could consistantly test his ideas through duels to the death, so I'm sure he did everything he could to discover the most useful fighting methods, which logically assumes he would have studied other systems (even if just through observations and discussions with warriors) to see what they did to come up with a way to beat it.


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