# Ranks question, etc.



## Shodan

Okay- this might be already on here somewhere, but I hope not.  Firstly, my question is.......why does Larry Tatum wear a 10th degree black belt?  I thought that rank was only reserved (in the Kenpo world) for Mr. Parker and everyone honored that.

  Secondly......I ask this not because I have anything against Mr. Tatum.....in fact, I have been researching him a lot lately cuz I might go study with one of his 7th degree black belts and am trying to figure out what, if any, differences I may encounter from what I am used to.

  Thanks!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## pknox

Interesting question.  I'm not sure of the answer, but here are two possibilities:

1. Does Master Tatum technically teach his own unique system, which is separate enough from EPAK in his eyes to warrant it being considered a different style, or does he consider himself a teacher of EPAK?  If it is the former, and he is in fact the founder and head of his own style, there would be precedence for his 10th dan.  If it is the latter, see my next point...

2. In many other systems I've seen, the 10th dan is something that can only be held by one _living_ practitioner at a time.  There are other systems where the rank is reserved for the founder.  I'm not sure if EPAK has the former or the latter restriction (or either, for that matter).  If it is in fact the former, as GM Parker is unfortunately no longer with us, it would seem that it would be possible to have a 10th dan currently.  The fact that there is some dispute, in some circles, as to who is the formal successor of GM Parker's system could also help explain why multiple people may claim the rank.  If it is the latter, and the rank is reserved solely for the founder, than possibly my first point would be the case.

Just conjecture, granted.  To the best of my knowledge, Master Tatum is not a member of Martial Talk, so we most likely will not get his first-hand take on this issue - but we are fortunate to have some very high ranking members of the Kenpo community here.  Given their unique perspective, I would be most interested in their comments on the situation.


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## Sergio Jódar

Master Tatum is not the only one who wears a 10 th. degree, Mr. Palanzo, Trejo, Planas...  wear this rank as well, and I don´t have any problem with it. If they are the best... Why not to wear this rank?
Which Mr. Tatum´s 7 th. are you going to study with?


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## Shodan

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Planas only claims and wears 9th degree.  

   I might study under Mr. Darryl Liner

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Blindside

> I thought that rank was only reserved (in the Kenpo world) for Mr. Parker and everyone honored that.



Bwa hahhaahahahahahahahahahaha

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Sorry, Shodan I'm not laughing at you, please see this link:

http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/10th-9thdegrees.htm

Lamont


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Shodan _
> *
> 
> I might study under Mr. Darryl Liner
> 
> :asian:  :karate: *



private lesson??????


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## Shodan

Well........now isn't that interesting- where did that list come from cuz on Mr. Planas' site it says he is a 9th degree and the last seminar I went to only a few months ago- our studio's flier said he was a 9th degree........I guess I just don't understand the whole thing.  Maybe my info. has been wrong all along but I didn't think anyone claimed that rank out of respect for Mr. Parker.

  As for you CoolKenpoDude- were you trying to slam me or was your question a serious one?

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Bill Lear

Shodan,

Mr. Planas was indeed promoted to tenth degree black belt in Hayfork, California last year. He doesn't acknowledge this rank, and he doesn't wear it. Kinda makes me wonder why he accepted it in the first place.


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## Touch Of Death

It sounds to me he got caught up in the moment and then came to reject the whole idea. Its ok to change your mind.


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## kenpo3631

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *Shodan,
> 
> Mr. Planas was indeed promoted to tenth degree black belt in Hayfork, California last year. He doesn't acknowledge this rank, and he doesn't wear it. Kinda makes me wonder why he accepted it in the first place. *



In 1990 if you can remember there was an article titled Who Is the Rightful Heir to Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate?. In that article Huk states his feelings about the "double bricks".

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/jan92/edparker/edparker.html

IMO I think Huk's supporters finally wore him down and he accepted the rank. Like you said Billy he doesn't acknowledge it or wear it. However if Tatum, Trejo, Hebler, Palanzo and Mills all can wear it, why can't Huk?


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## dcence

As I recall, there is no prohibition on multiple tenth degrees or multiple grandmasters, but the rank of "Senior Grandmaster" is  reserved for the system founder.  That is off the top of my head, so I could be off.  I think it is in the Encyclopedia somewhere, but I lent mine to someone.

Derek


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Shodan _
> *
> 
> As for you CoolKenpoDude- were you trying to slam me or was your question a serious one?
> 
> :asian:  :karate: *



of course, my question is a serious one.

2 kind of lessons you can take to learn MA: public and private.

which one????

thanks


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## Karazenpo

Everybodys a sijo these days. I remember way back when (1960's) before I even started training that it was something to just be a Black Belt. Then came 'the more is better mindset, the egos, the politics, the greed and the rest of the bull. Now, let's be honest, who is really impressed when you hear someone's a 10th anymore? I don't mean someone you know and are quite aware of their abilities and truly deserving of the rank but someone you never heard of? Admit it, first thing you say to yourself, 'yeah right!, here we go!' There are so many 'founders' these days that if it were the wheel, it would have been re-invented a thousand times over! Look beneath the surface and all these systems are way more alike then different. Hey, just my thoughts, please don't take anything to heart. I'm sure there are others reading this that are also thinking the same thing, you have to be! Respectfully submitted.


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Karazenpo _
> *Everybodys a sijo these days. I remember way back when (1960's) before I even started training that it was something to just be a Black Belt. Then came 'the more is better mindset, the egos, the politics, the greed and the rest of the bull. Now, let's be honest, who is really impressed when you hear someone's a 10th anymore? I don't mean someone you know and are quite aware of their abilities and truly deserving of the rank but someone you never heard of? Admit it, first thing you say to yourself, 'yeah right!, here we go!' There are so many 'founders' these days that if it were the wheel, it would have been re-invented a thousand times over! Look beneath the surface and all these systems are way more alike then different. Hey, just my thoughts, please don't take anything to heart. I'm sure there are others reading this that are also thinking the same thing, you have to be! Respectfully submitted. *



agree 

let me put this into 1 perspective

HIGHER RANK means $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Seminar, promotion, all the good deeds come

i guess a guy gotta EAT, SLEEP


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## Shodan

CoolKenpoDude- My apologies, I read that wrong.  I still go up to my "home" school once a month (in fact I have a lesson tonight!!) for private lessons with my instructor, so I imagine if I train with Mr. Liner, it will be mostly public.......maybe I can do an occassional private lesson though, will have to see if and how it all turns out.

  As for the whole 10th degree thing- thanks for all the comments.  From the beginning of my Kenpo days, I had heard that 10th was reserved........so now I guess the times have changed and I am having a hard time accepting it in this case.  I just wonder if the ranks are not political after a certain point?  I mean, you don't actually test for 10th, right, it is given you by a panel of others or something?

  Last night, I was thinking, if Mr. Parker were suddenly alive today, how would he feel about all the 10th degrees and politics?  Would he be fine with it or would he be like.......how the heck did you get up to my rank?!!  Just a thought.....

  :asian: :karate:


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## CoolKempoDude

Shodan

no hard feeling...sorry if i make you feel that way. Good luck with your training


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

I too am amazed by the number of 10th Dan's in Kenpo.  Frankly, I have nothing bad to say about any of them.  But, it is rather silly too have so many.  It sort of cheapens the rank -- kind of like being a VP at a Bank.  If you search through the Kenpo General forum, you will find many long threads about 10th degrees, Kenpo Grandmasters, and similar topics.


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## Bill Lear

> _Originally posted by dcence _
> *As I recall, there is no prohibition on multiple tenth degrees or multiple grandmasters, but the rank of "Senior Grandmaster" is  reserved for the system founder.  That is off the top of my head, so I could be off.  I think it is in the Encyclopedia somewhere, but I lent mine to someone.
> 
> Derek *



The way that Rank was outlined in the encyclopedia was done different than in the Infinite Insights book... Check it out when you get the chance dude. :asian:


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## Bill Lear

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *In 1990 if you can remember there was an article titled Who Is the Rightful Heir to Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate?. In that article Huk states his feelings about the "double bricks".
> 
> http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/jan92/edparker/edparker.html
> 
> IMO I think Huk's supporters finally wore him down and he accepted the rank. Like you said Billy he doesn't acknowledge it or wear it. However if Tatum, Trejo, Hebler, Palanzo and Mills all can wear it, why can't Huk? *



Mr. Planas should wear it only if he feels comfortable with it. If the "double bricks" were good enough for Mr. Parker, then why aren't they good enough for Mr. Planas?

By the way... here's an article in which Mr. Parker *himself* names Larry Tatum as his protege:
Click here :asian:


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## pknox

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *By the way... here's an article in which Mr. Parker himself names Larry Tatum as his protege:
> Click here :asian: *



If that is the case, than the right for Mr. Tatum to wear the rank is without question.


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## Michael Billings

Shame on you for promoting your own instructor ... again. 

Besides, we know when the article was written; You and I know some, if not all of what transpired after the article.  Nobody doubts Mr. Tatum's lineage or ability.  But as I am sure you would agree, the decision as far as being his successor, well, walk carefully young man.

-MB


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## Bill Lear

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Shame on you for promoting your own instructor ... again.
> 
> Besides, we know when the article was written; You and I know some, if not all of what transpired after the article.  Nobody doubts Mr. Tatum's lineage or ability.  But as I am sure you would agree, the decision as far as being his successor, well, walk carefully young man. *



*In knowing the Parker family for several years I can honestly say that I know Mr. Parker, himself, was not the saint that everyone makes him out to be. Yes, Ed Parker was a good man. Yes, he and Larry did have a falling out. And, No, I am not implying that anyone should be Mr. Parkers heir. People are capable of finding their own way. To hear is to doubt, to see is to be decieved, but to feel is to believe.

I walk the way I walk... I don't hop, skip, or jump unless I have to... and trust me... right now I don't have to.*


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## kenpo3631

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *In knowing the Parker family for several years I can honestly say that I know Mr. Parker, himself, was not the saint that everyone makes him out to be. Yes, Ed Parker was a good man. Yes, he and Larry did have a falling out. And, No, I am not implying that anyone should be Mr. Parkers heir. People are capable of finding their own way. To hear is to doubt, to see is to be decieved, but to feel is to believe.
> 
> I walk the way I walk... I don't hop, skip, or jump unless I have to... and trust me... right now I don't have to. *




I think they are all masters of Kenpo in their own right. They all have interesting and enlightening views on the Art Mr. Parker left us.  How can you put a rank on that? 

Peace Billy,
Kenpo3631


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> * How can you put a rank on that?
> 
> *



this is BRILLIANT. AMEND


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## Michael Billings

I was not even trying to go there - it is just that things change, as do people and perspectives.  I concur 100% with posts you have made elsewhere re: unification of Kenpo and how problamatic, and maybe not even desired, that would be.  I was actually posting with some levity as indicated by the smiley.  But hopping, skipping and jumping all have their place, and we don't always do them because we 'Have to", but because that is what we want to do.  Hope I caught your reference here and responded appropriately.  But what the hey?  

More later, gotta go teach.

Oss,
-Michael


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## Bill Lear

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *this is BRILLIANT. AMEND *



I thought the appropriate term was AMEN, but I could be wrong.


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## Bill Lear

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I was not even trying to go there - it is just that things change, as do people and perspectives.  I concur 100% with posts you have made elsewhere re: unification of Kenpo and how problamatic, and maybe not even desired, that would be.  I was actually posting with some levity as indicated by the smiley.  But hopping, skipping and jumping all have their place, and we don't always do them because we 'Have to", but because that is what we want to do.  Hope I caught your reference here and responded appropriately.  But what the hey?
> *



*Mr. Billings,

My point is that I don't think re-unification is possible, and everyone knows that it isn't going to happen under "One" man.

As for walking carefully... that sounded like a subtle warning to me, and I don't feel I've done anything to warrant a warning for the way I have expressed myself on this topic. Thank you.* :asian:


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *I thought the appropriate term was AMEN, but I could be wrong.  *



you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AMEN


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## Klondike93

At what point was Mr. Parker anointed "Senior Grandmaster"?
It's my understanding that it was only necessary when a couple of these 9th's became 10th's and were suddenly using the term "Grandmaster". Now that Chuck Sullivan is a 10th "Senior Grandmaster" what does that make Mr. Parker, "Super Senior Grandmaster"?

Just a curious observation


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## Bill Lear

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *At what point was Mr. Parker anointed "Senior Grandmaster"?
> It's my understanding that it was only necessary when a couple of these 9th's became 10th's and were suddenly using the term "Grandmaster". Now that Chuck Sullivan is a 10th "Senior Grandmaster" what does that make Mr. Parker, "Super Senior Grandmaster"?
> 
> Just a curious observation *



Confusing isn't it?

9th = Master of the Arts
10th = Senior Master of the Arts
Mr. Parker = Grandmaster of the Arts

At least that's the way he had it in his Infinite Insights Book (volume two page 16).


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## Klondike93

Ahh, didn't notice/remember that, thanks for pointing it out   :asian:


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## Seig

In addition, Mr. Sullivan created his own system, even if it is based on Mr. Parker's teachings.  If he called his system EPAK, then I would take issue with his title, but as it is his system, he can call himself whatever he wants.  I do respect the 10ths that are still teaching EPAK but only calling themselves Senior Masters.  I do not remember exactly where I read it and I might be slightly off, but I do believe that one of the guidelines for 10th was approximately 40 years in the art and helping to expand it world wide.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *Confusing isn't it?
> 
> 9th = Master of the Arts
> 10th = Senior Master of the Arts
> Mr. Parker = Grandmaster of the Arts
> 
> At least that's the way he had it in his Infinite Insights Book (volume two page 16).
> *



Billy, help me out...... Volume II, Chapter 2, Page 16 is the end of the chapter and is a blank page.  The belt ranks are (in my Infinite Insights), are on page 10, and there is no mention of Mr. Parker being the "Grandmaster of the Arts".  
Help Please!!!!!!
Thanks
:asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Everyone refers to Mr. Parker as Senior Grand Master.  So if 10th degree is Senior Master...isn't it time to promote Mr. Parker to 11th degree?


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## psi_radar

Here we go...:soapbox:

I think the Systema guys might have the right idea--no rank insignia, just some cargo or sweat pants and a t-shirt. Let's face it, the cream rises to the top on the mat and is self-evident. 

My reaction to seeing Mr. Tatum in a seminar last year:

"Wow. He is a serious badass who not only knows the system in and out, but can apply his thoughts to the physical plane without any temporal delay. I wonder if I could live long enough to learn everything he knows about Kenpo and not be too elderly to apply it." On another note, he was also helpful and personable.

Upon seeing numerous awesome martial artists, my reaction has been similar--one had hybrid experience in Kenpo, small circle ju-jitsu, and Muay-thai; another a grandmaster of aiki-jujitsu; and high-level judoka (plus my own instructor of course . Each clearly demonstrated their mastery of movement and their particular styles, and I was too immersed in the experience to notice their belts. I was, however jealous of their ability while at the same time admiring their skill and knowledge. And I felt priviledged they were sharing it with me.

I think we're all a little too hung up about this rank thing. Be thankful we have such skilled people to teach us, and if they want to go by the moniker "master of all he surveys," I'll still go to their seminars. 

Off soapbox. 

Pete


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

I agree.  Let's promote Mr. Parker to 11th and then try and get other Kenpoists to abandon their Red.


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## Shodan

Well folks, I still think there is something to say about honoring and respecting the founder of the system enough to keep him at the higest level in the system.  I suppose if someone were taught by Mr. Parker EVERYTHING he knew, then maybe they could be the same rank.......but I think it would only be right if Mr. Parker gave that person the rank himself.  Am I being too "old school" here or what?

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Shodan _*
> I still think there is something to say about honoring and respecting the founder of the system enough to keep him at the higest level in the system.
> 
> Am I being too "old school" here or what?
> 
> :asian:  :karate:
> *



 This debate will go on till the end of time....:rofl: 

:asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Besides Ed Parker, who was the first to break the tradition and promote themselves to 10th degree?  Was it one of Chow's other students?  Was it Al Tracy?  Ralph Castro?  Larry Tatum?  

Who will be the first to break tradition and promote themselves to 11th degree?  It won't be me.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Typical criteria for promoting Senior Black Belts includes time in the art, teaching history, number of schools/students, etc.  Should we add internet post count as a requirement for promotion beyond a certain rank?


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## Shodan

Only if nobody is allowed to get promoted past Kaith!!:rofl:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Orig. posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _*
> Who will be the first to break tradition and promote themselves to 11th degree?
> *



HUSH NOW!!!!!!  They don't need any encouragement!
:rofl:


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## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Typical criteria for promoting Senior Black Belts includes time in the art, teaching history, number of schools/students, etc.  Should we add internet post count as a requirement for promotion beyond a certain rank? *




Please don't give the rank hungry out there any ideas  

But it was funny :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Orig. posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _*
> Should we add internet post count as a requirement for promotion beyond a certain rank?
> *



Now you might be on to something here~!


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## Shodan

Oh wait!!  I thought you meant on here......but when re-reading that again, I see I am wrong.......hmmmm.......interesting......maybe posts could count in some way.......or maybe we could add some sort of computer patch to our gis? :rofl:

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Shodan _*
> Oh wait!!  Maybe we could add some sort of computer patch to our gis? :rofl:
> :asian:  :karate:
> *



What do ya think OFK?  I think we have a new item for the bookstore here!:rofl: :shrug:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

I think a computer patch would look good on a Black Gi pants leg on top of a stack of IKC flame patches.:roflmao:


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I agree.  Let's promote Mr. Parker to 11th and then try and get other Kenpoists to abandon their Red. *



you want to do an impossible mission, do you????

these *red* kenpoists wear *red* belts for years and now you tell them to take *red* off.????? there is no way they are going to do that

they will  suggest you to give parker a NEW belt so that they can keep the *red* for themselve


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## Bill Lear

Don't you think that Mr. Parker would have added an 11th dan to his ranking system before he died if he really and truly wanted it there?

I like the current rank system, and don't see any reason to change things. (And hell.... I don't have any *RED*  on my belt yet.)

You guys are pathetic. I think this squabbling over rank, and who's who in the zoo has really gotten blown way out of proportion.

*GET A LIFE!!!*

:soapbox:


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## Shodan

Hmmm.........that's a first.  I have never been called "pathetic" or told to "Get a Life" before just for trying to become more knowledgeable about the system I study and the "higer ups" in it and how everything works at the higher ranks.  Maybe you weren't talking directly to me but that was a pretty all-inclusive statement there.

  Just trying to understand.........

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Michael Billings

There is a history of the Belt Ranking system and people self-promoting, or the mad scramble for 10th, etc. that you are just stepping into.  There have been some pretty ludicrous posts in the past and you are probably just catching some of the fallout.

The title and rank of Senior Grandmaster was reserved for Mr. Parker alone at one point (the camp at the Pasadena school following his death was when it was announced), I was there, and unless I just totally missed something, that was how I remembered it.  

Time passed, people were not going to ever get up to 10th, and then someone did, whether promoted by their students or their peers, the next thing we know there are a handful of 10ths, then a double handful of them.  Deserved, earned, it is not for me to judge, but ... now rather than the rank of 10th being reserved, it is the Title of "Senior Grandmaster" that is reserved for Mr. Parker.  Some were in Kenpo since the 50's, some started their own Associations, some, just taught, and taught, and taught ... and the Art has benefited.  Then there are some others well, opinions vary (?)

Hope this gives you a brief overview.  We have seen belts for sale on the internet, we have dealt with people getting rank over the phone ... sometimes it just gets  to you, and that is probably some of why you got the response you did.  I don't think it was personally directed at you.  Keep seeking knowledge and growing wherever you can.

Oss,
-Michael


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Billy:

GET A SENSE OF HUMOR !!!

Don't you think if Ed Parker wanted everybody to be a 10th degree he would have made himself an 11th? 

P.S.  Don't you have an Avatar where you are smiling?


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *
> 
> I don't think it was personally directed at you.  Keep seeking knowledge and growing wherever you can.
> 
> Oss,
> -Michael *



i would like to know who Bill directed to because we have a handful of people posting here. It is better for HIM to be More specific when he calls everybody "pathetic".

"pathetic" for posting????? geeeeee. I guess he is included in "pathetic" category too.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Billy has told me to "get a life" in big bold letters after I insulted some people on the CanAm forum...so I'm pretty sure it was directed at me.  

Unfortunately, I have no life...just a job, a wife & kids, a large extended family, a few friends, some Jiu Jitsu classes, some Kenpo practice, bike riding, a dog, some books, some DVD's, an internet connection, some travel, a (twisted) sense of humor, some really strong opinions...but no life to speak of.


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## Michael Billings

... GET A LIFE!!!  Any more life and you would be a run down old Fat Kenpo Guy.

-Michael


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## Bill Lear

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Billy:
> 
> GET A SENSE OF HUMOR !!!
> 
> Don't you think if Ed Parker wanted everybody to be a 10th degree he would have made himself an 11th?
> 
> P.S.  Don't you have an Avatar where you are smiling? *



You're not funny.  

By the way... I am smiling... it's just that my lips are in the way.


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## Shodan

Thank you Mr. Billings- that is the kind of info. I was looking for.  Although I have been associated with and studied Kenpo for a long time, I really would like to know more history as I have not learned much of that part of the art in my journey.

  As Big Bird always says on Sesame Street:  "Asking questions is a good way to find things out."

  Thanks again-

  :asian:  :karate:


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## rmcrobertson

A life? How about a real name...that seems tricky...


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *A life? How about a real name...that seems tricky... *



Rob- Rather than be so concerned why someone doesnt use a "real name" why dont you post some info on your profile.  Looks pretty anony. to me!

Mike


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## rmcrobertson

Oh. So you don't know my real name, what I do for a living, or where I train? Huh. Well, I prob'ly should have let it go anyway. OFK is probably an OK guy regardless--I just get tired of  these goofy kenpo nicknames, and the kind of anonymity that encourages people to behave badly.


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## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Oh. So you don't know my real name, what I do for a living, or where I train? Huh. Well, I prob'ly should have let it go anyway. OFK is probably an OK guy regardless--I just get tired of  these goofy kenpo nicknames, and the kind of anonymity that encourages people to behave badly. *



Now there's a statement I can agree with


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## CoolKempoDude

i don't see anything wrong with being anonymous.

if your privacy is your number 1 concern, anonymous is the best.

if all you want to do is posting, anonymous is the way to go.

if you want everybody to know what your name is and what belt you are wearing, do what you like


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## Goldendragon7

> _Orig. posted by rmcrobertson _*
> I just get tired of  these goofy kenpo nicknames, and the kind of anonymity that encourages people to behave badly.
> *



I agree totally.... however, the flip side is equally annoying.... 

You know.. 

those Kenpo guys, that do give their real name, where they work, who they train with and what rank they are which they believe enables "THEM" to behave badly. 

:shrug:


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## rmcrobertson

Um...who would this be? 

Personally, I find using my real name helps keep me honest--or at least honester.


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Um...who would this be?
> 
> Personally, I find using my real name helps keep me honest--or at least honester. *



i just wonder what your honesty has to do with your name ????

when you post something, people will see your honesty through your posts whether you reveal your name or not.


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## Shiatsu

Don't mind Billy, he can't take a joke.  He has jumped ship so many times on different instructors or organizations that any other one could be next.  Maybe he will study with Doc next, no maybe Mr. Sullivan, no wait Mr. Mills.  No wait I got it Krav Maga:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Bill Lear

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> 
> *Don't mind Billy, he can't take a joke.  He has jumped ship so many times on different instructors or organizations that any other one could be next.  Maybe he will study with Doc next, no maybe Mr. Sullivan, no wait Mr. Mills.  No wait I got it Krav Maga:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: *



Is that all you can come up with? I'm dissappointed.

By the way... I won't be training with Doc, Sulivan, or Mills. None of them teach anything I want to know. :asian:


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## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *i just wonder what your honesty has to do with your name ????
> 
> when you post something, people will see your honesty through your posts whether you reveal your name or not. *




  Yeah right


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## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> *  Yeah right    *



if you don't believe me, you can try to post BS information  here and see what happen


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## rmcrobertson

Well, for one thing, it reminds us to stick to discussing ideas and merely arguing, rather than attacking another poster's character and life--inasmuch as the name forces one to at least consider the possibility that someone might show up at one's door with a Really Big Hammer.


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## Michael Billings

... that "Big Hammer" thing is probably not something to really worry about, but "your line does not lengthen when you cut other's lines short." (Paraphrased from Zen and the Martial Arts)

-Michael


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## rmcrobertson

There ya go. 

Beyond the fact that I just consider it dishonorable to post and post without using your name, in our circumstances anyway, there's my near certainty that anonymity and really lousy manners correlate very highly indeed.

Of course, that's not going to convince a soul. But I just love reading all the alibis...

Incidentally, Mr. Conatser, I don't hardly know anybody who uses their rank, training, etc., to justify their crappy behavior. The couple people I know who mouth off in their own name just blame it on their own personality...and they seem to be far outnumbered by the Web Ninjettes.


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## Karazenpo

Look, I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, so to speak, but I have to agree with rmcrobertson, use whatever handle you like. I use Shihan Joe Shuras or Karazenpo but when I use Karazenpo I post my name in my signature always. I feel if you totally believe in what you say, why not? And as far as anything else goes, I will not and never will be 'intimidated' to the point where I can't post my name when I express my beliefs and opinions. Please, no offense to anyone, but that is my belief on this issue. What say you?  Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras


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## Goldendragon7

> _Orig. posted by rmcrobertson _*
> I don't hardly know anybody who uses their rank, training, etc., to justify their crappy behavior. The couple people I know who mouth off in their own name just blame it on their own personality ... and they seem to be far out numbered by the Web Ninjettes.
> *



Ok, Ok, I give ...... I should have added "their  personality" to the list.

Not pointing at any one person... but rather pointing out that on either side of the coin it is unprofessional or lacking common courteously.

But, due to the nature of the net at this time, there is little we can do on either side except just accept it and move on.  Both sides know how most of us feel about what they do, and it still has little effect on either. 

:asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Robert:  My name is in my profile as is my location.  But, since I am not in any major EPAK or Tracy association, I've only encountered two people on Martial Talk who know me.  So what would using my real name as a "handle" do for everyone?  

I think Old Fat Kenpoka is a good descriptor of the way I feel when I am on the mat or just thinking or talking about martial arts.  I am...Older than most of the guys I train with and many of the people on MT (but not as old as any of the Kenpo "Seniors")...Fatter than I should be (although not as fat as I've been and not as fat as some)...and a Kenpoist (despite my skepticism, Kenpo ignorance, and obnoxious and vain challenges to the status quo).


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## rmcrobertson

I wish I were part of the status quo, or even knew where it was hiding!

My points're actually pretty simple. 1) names seem to help keep us honest; b) anonymity often--not in your case; all I recollect are disagreements--seems to encourage lousy manners; c) isn't martial arts all about our encounters with others? and whowe are?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Robert:  I respect you for your knowledge, manners, sincerity, and efforts to keep discussions positive.  

But I don't think it makes a difference whether someone uses a nickname in a forum or their real name -- as long as the person is consistent and doesn't try to hide behind multiple names.  

For instance, do you respect Mr. Conatser less because he is GoldenDragon7?  Do you respect Clyde less because he was Professor Kenpo?  Do you respect arnisador less because you have no idea what his real name is?  Do you respect Mark Twain less because he was really Samuel Clemens?

Would you respect me more as Alan Wortman or as Old Fat Kenpoka or does it make no difference as long as my posts annoy you?


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## CoolKempoDude

i hope my "coolkempodude" is OK with everybody here  :asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

It's cool with me...
ovbiously not cool with everyone here...


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## rmcrobertson

I repeat: Arnisador does not hide behind anonymity to throw insults. And using your name, I repeat, tends to keep one honest.

Twain didn't get on the Internet, not even on that one "TNG" episode. And from early on, it was generally known who he was.

What would you say was the proportion of anonymous rudeness to named?

It's certainly not going to affect what anybody does. But since I read the first apologia for the ol' nom-de-plume ("I don't use my name because I might get in political trouble where I train," which raises the question of why the hell anybody would want to train there), I've been fascinated to see a buncha martial artists unwilling to make their claims in their own good names...


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## pete

why don't you guys fund another thread to discuss, or rather stubbornly contradict each other on whether names ought to be used... i frankly don't have the time or patience to ferret through this nonsense looking for kenpo information, or even more specifically epak posts.  c'mon guys find a new sandbox to play in, or maybe more appropriately stated... another drain to clog.

no offense to any of you personally, or relating to your other posts relating to the topic of kenpo... to which whether i agree or disagree would never ask to curtail... but i just keep finding this fluff everywhere and the horse is dead and buried, so let's all move on.

pete (just pete, please ask no more)


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## Michael Billings

Since we have not talked about ranks since page 4, I have obviously been remiss in the "Strick" moderation of this forum.  Whoops!!!  And I have been reading it on and off all day.  

My apologies and thanks to Pete for bringing us back on topic.  Do ya'll want me to split and move the "anonymous"  two pages worth of ... well, you know, over to Kenpo General?  Or can we just get on from here?

Thanks,
-Michael
 MT Moderator


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## Shodan

Yeah- thanks Pete!!  If nobody else has anything else to relate to the original question, I don't mind if you guys just go on here.....but if there is more actual thoughts on topic, I'd like to get rid of the fluff and hear the on-topic stuff myself!!

  :asian:  :karate:


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## WhiteTiger

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> *Bwa hahhaahahahahahahahahahaha
> 
> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> Sorry, Shodan I'm not laughing at you, please see this link:
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/10th-9thdegrees.htm
> 
> Lamont *



This site states that all of these 10th and 9th Dans teach "American Kenpo" that is not correct, many of these have evolved their own systems from what was originally taught by Ed Parker.

Remember Ed Parker did not claim 10th Dan until he evolved his own system of teaching Kenpo.

The question to ask these 9th and 10th Dans is, Who awarded you this rank?  What other 10th Dans recognize your rank?

In my opinion even if you create your own system you should not claim 10th Dan unless it is awareded by at least 3 other high ranking black belts from your root system(s).


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## MisterMike

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> 
> 
> In my opinion even if you create your own system you should not claim 10th Dan unless it is awareded by at least 3 other high ranking black belts from your root system(s).



Why not? If you got the gusto to claim your own system, why not go all the way? :shrug: 

Even for a system's head, the rank is usally awarded by a board of other seniors in your art and comes with age. The overabundance of 10th degree black belts is clearly in the U.S.

I just wonder if this is so hotly debated, say in Japan. There is one clear founder of Aikido. He taught many disciples. There are now deveral main ryu of Aikido and they have all had at one time a 10th degree leading them. The styles are clearly differentiated but they seem to all be able to live with each other claiming to teach Aikido. I guess you'll never see that in Kenpo.

I'm not giving credit one way or another to the mega-Dan's listed on that page. I think the real students can differentiate who's real and not.


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## WhiteTiger

This problem doesn't exist in Japan because Japan has laws governing Martial Arts schools and ranking.


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## MisterMike

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> *This problem doesn't exist in Japan because Japan has laws governing Martial Arts schools and ranking. *



OK - even if that were true...next country...how about China? 

The point still remains. The U.S. is rampant with mega-Dan's and our culture is not one where you can go "Test the Master" without 30 lawyers jumping on your back.


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## XtremeJ_AKKI

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I agree.  Let's promote Mr. Parker to 11th and then try and get other Kenpoists to abandon their Red. *



 ....for the love of donuts, make it stop. :erg:


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## XtremeJ_AKKI

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *You guys are pathetic.....
> GET A LIFE!!!*



 Eaaaasy there, tiger. Come on, I'll buy ya a Corona.


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## Brother John

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *Shodan,
> 
> Mr. Planas was indeed promoted to tenth degree black belt in Hayfork, California last year. He doesn't acknowledge this rank, and he doesn't wear it. Kinda makes me wonder why he accepted it in the first place. *


Reason: Just good manners toward the well meaning people who gave it to him.

Your Brother
John


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## WhiteTiger

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *OK - even if that were true...next country...how about China?
> 
> The point still remains. The U.S. is rampant with mega-Dan's and our culture is not one where you can go "Test the Master" without 30 lawyers jumping on your back. *



I understand your point, my point is, and I have said it before, anyone with 10 minutes of MA training can open their own studio, self promote to 10th Dan and call their system "Joe Schmoe's Karate".  

I don't mean that any of the people mentioned on the website haven't earned their rank.  But unless you have some kind of governing body this will not stop.


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## MisterMike

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> *I understand your point, my point is, and I have said it before, anyone with 10 minutes of MA training can open their own studio, self promote to 10th Dan and call their system "Joe Schmoe's Karate".
> 
> I don't mean that any of the people mentioned on the website haven't earned their rank.  But unless you have some kind of governing body this will not stop. *



Ohya! I agree. But I still don't want a governing body


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## rmcrobertson

And what exactly does one propose for the enforcement methods of this "governing body?"

"Ya gots a nice studio here...it would be a shame if Lefty here had his hand sword get out of hand?"

With some experience in these matters, I'm a-tellin' you this: the kinds of people who want to run these organizations should NEVER be allowed to run these organizations. And, there NEVER REALLY WERE these august governing bodies. 

Thank ahura-mazda I have a back yard, enough knowledge, tapes and books, lots to learn, and the ability to teach.


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## marshallbd

Why  does it matter?  If someone wants to wear rank, They only hurt their reputation if they dont have the knowledge to go with it.  And wouldn't that be apparent to others who rank high within the Kenpo world? I just don't understand why it matters.....


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## Karazenpo

Agreed, it would never work. Politics would infest any organiztion no matter how good their intentions were originally, not to mention not everyone will be satisfied with who sits on this board or the constitutional guidelines of such organization. It's just the human condition. You can't please everyone, so why try!


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