# Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate



## troubleenuf

Since this has come up several times let me give you some input from experience.  We have several instructors in my area/state who "withhold" certificates from students who have passed their tests and have paid for their tests.  We also have those who have not applied for certificates for those who have paid for them.  When those people come to me I have helped them get their certificates.  If their certificate has been applied for and the instructor has been "holding" it that makes it easy.  I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee.  I think the last time it was $35.  
  Several times the people have chosen to take the instructors in question to small claims court.  It is inexpensive to do this.  In ALL cases they have come out the winner.  Its very simple.  The judge asks the instructor if the student paid for the test.  The instructor says yes (hard to say no when you have a canceled check and they know it), the judge asks if they are Kukkiwon certified (again hard to say no when its all over their website that they are), the judge asks them were their certificate is?  They come up with all kinds of stupid things here but in the end the judge gives them two choices... give them the certificate or give them their money back.  In the one case that I was a "witness" in the instructor refused to give them the certificate so he chose to give them their test fee back ($550 he charged them)  He then tore up the certificate in front of the student and walked out.  I patted her on the back and laughed, and got her a duplicate within two weeks for $35.  Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.  
Bottom line:  If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it.  Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.


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## hungryninja

I have also heard of people holding the certificates until the student has attended at least 6 months of classes after the test.  Is this common?


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## chrispillertkd

troubleenuf said:


> Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.
> Bottom line: If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it. Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.


 
Why would this gentleman, or anybody, agree to test someone if they didn't think they were already "loyal," or anything else that they consider being essential to being a black belt? And if they weren't and insisted on testing anyway, why were they passed in the first place?

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui

I would never sue my instructor for anything. Certainly not for a certificate.


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## dortiz

I actually need help getting my sons certificate. His test was done and paid. His School then wants you to attend a ceremony dinner which we paid the tickets for but then the date was set as the same time as a planned vacation. The teacher of course said we need to pay for a second ceremony next time around and be there to recieve the Cert. Now he cant get his certificate and my wife wont pay for another dinner on principle. At this point we are not speaking with his teacher as my wife is done.
On the new Kukkiwon site I dont see where I can order replacements. Any idea on how to order it.


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## d1jinx

dortiz said:


> I actually need help getting my sons certificate. His test was done and paid. His School then wants you to attend a ceremony dinner which we paid the tickets for but then the date was set as the same time as a planned vacation. The teacher of course said we need to pay for a second ceremony next time around and be there to recieve the Cert. Now he cant get his certificate and my wife wont pay for another dinner on principle. At this point we are not speaking with his teacher as my wife is done.
> On the new Kukkiwon site I dont see where I can order replacements. Any idea on how to order it.


 
you know, that is quite stupid on the part of the instructor.  So he would rather loose a BB student over a "DINNER"????

I get the significance of the dinner, but life doesnt revolve around TKD and expectations should not either.  

Are you sure your sons shows in the system?  If so, you can easily get a replacement.  Try contacting them yourself through email, if that dont work, there are a few here who can get it, just PM them instead of open forumn for discretion....


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## Daniel Sullivan

chrispillertkd said:


> Why would this gentleman, or anybody, agree to test someone if they didn't think they were already "loyal," or anything else that they consider being essential to being a black belt? And if they weren't and insisted on testing anyway, why were they passed in the first place?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Probably to get the $550.00.  

Hanging onto the cert for several months, be it under the guise that the Kukkiwon was busy (heard that one before) or for proof of loyalty usually means that many months worth of tuition, plus any other fees for say, weapon form testing, or whatever.  They don't want to quit because they at least would like to get the certificate that they tested for.

Multiply that by fifty, and you have a cozy, but dishonest, way of keeping people from quitting right after black belt.  

All comes down to a lack of integrity.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

troubleenuf said:


> Bottom line: If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it. Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.


 


puunui said:


> I would never sue my instructor for anything. Certainly not for a certificate.


I suspect that the people who choose to sue do not start off worrying about the getting what they paid for element. I suspect that the certificate means a great deal to them. 

It is not until someone that they have trusted turns out to be less than honest that they get upset. When the instructor in question refuses to make things right, over a period of time, all that is left of the once valued student/teacher relationship is the relationship between a dishonest businessman and a dissatisfied customer. 

If it a minor student is involved, it may not be the student, but the parents, who have footed the bill, who are suing the instructor. 

Daniel


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I suspect that the people who choose to sue do not start off worrying about the getting what they paid for element. I suspect that the certificate means a great deal to them. It is not until someone that they have trusted turns out to be less than honest that they get upset. When the instructor in question refuses to make things right, over a period of time, all that is left of the once valued student/teacher relationship is the relationship between a dishonest businessman and a dissatisfied customer.




I think that you can see that sort of thing coming. I personally am very particular about who I learn from, to the point where I chose not to learn from certain instructors even though they had excellent skill, because of what my gut told me. I suppose you can blame the particular instructor, but at the same time, I would think that the student has to take at least some responsibility, for joining in the first place.


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## dortiz

*Name**Current
Poom/Dan**Poom/Dan
No.**Date of
Issuance*XXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX .... 44162010-04-05 

I deleted the pertinent stuff but yup its there. Luckily the ceremony is 6 months after the test and they did register him. They do that so you re sign for another year.That way you have to re register and buy the ceremony tickets. Again that was fine. Its a falling out over not making the dinner and be asked to pay for new tickets. I am stuck between my wife and the teacher. I lose both ways. My teacher is elsewhere and I would ask him but I cant begin to explain that my son went to this school because itwas closer and my wife would not drive. Stupid drama.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Daniel Sullivan said:


> All comes down to a lack of integrity.
> 
> Daniel


 
A lack of real integrity and ethics on the part of the instructor.  I would not have anything to do with someone like that!


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## troubleenuf

My question exactly?  It was all a bunch of BS... and the fact that he was more or less 
"proud" of the stack of certificates he presented to the judge of those he was "holding" at the time?  I try to get them to the students as soon as I can.  I dont want them sitting on my shelf any longer than they need to be.



chrispillertkd said:


> Why would this gentleman, or anybody, agree to test someone if they didn't think they were already "loyal," or anything else that they consider being essential to being a black belt? And if they weren't and insisted on testing anyway, why were they passed in the first place?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


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## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I think that you can see that sort of thing coming. I personally am very particular about who I learn from, to the point where I chose not to learn from certain instructors even though they had excellent skill, because of what my gut told me. I suppose you can blame the particular instructor, *but at the same time, I would think that the student has to take at least some responsibility, for joining in the first place.*


That is a toughie.  I do agree that a student has an obligation to do research into the place that they are going to train, but, the level of specific research and the information that you and I can pick up right off the bat is much more informative than what a new student can.  That difference becomes even greater when it is a parent shopping for the student and not the student themselves.

Daniel


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## shima

dortiz said:


> *Name**Current
> Poom/Dan**Poom/Dan
> No.**Date of
> Issuance*XXXXXXXX  XXXXXXX .... 44162010-04-05
> 
> I deleted the pertinent stuff but yup its there. Luckily the ceremony is 6 months after the test and they did register him. They do that so you re sign for another year.That way you have to re register and buy the ceremony tickets. Again that was fine. Its a falling out over not making the dinner and be asked to pay for new tickets. I am stuck between my wife and the teacher. I lose both ways. My teacher is elsewhere and I would ask him but I cant begin to explain that my son went to this school because itwas closer and my wife would not drive. Stupid drama.



The insane part is that you already paid for the first dinner and then couldn't make it due to your family vacation. I think the instructor should have let you come to the next dinner and not charged you. 

But then again people do crazy things when they're trying to rip you off for more money.


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## troubleenuf

Unfortunately not everyone is gifted with your obvious psychic ability.  If there is a substantiated school that has been in business for a period of time most people who are new to martial arts have no clue as to what questions to ask or what to look for when they walk in the door.  For that matter the school could have opened yesterday and 99% of the new people walking in the door still would not know what questions to ask and what to look for.  In 31 years I have had all of 3 people ask about my certification that actually knew what it meant and that was because they had previous experience.  Many new people dont know if a first degree outranks a 7th degree or visa versa.  So how can you say them getting screwed by an unscrupulous instructor is partly their fault.  Thats like saying you knew there was a chance the plane was going to crash so it was your fault you took the flight.  





puunui said:


> I think that you can see that sort of thing coming. I personally am very particular about who I learn from, to the point where I chose not to learn from certain instructors even though they had excellent skill, because of what my gut told me. I suppose you can blame the particular instructor, but at the same time, I would think that the student has to take at least some responsibility, for joining in the first place.


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## Master Dan

In some cases there is a marketing or incentive plan that has a black belt club in the Dojang were students prepay for thier KKW bb in advance including thier nice embroider Black Belt which hangs on a display until the day they are ready to test and recieve thier KKW cert which should be ordered in time to recieve upon testing?

This is all fine to inspire students to work hard towards certification however there are many abuses where masters and I would put it to you the larger percentage% are non American in origin have pocketed the money and never paid KKW a dime and issue private certs or nothing at all. I am all in favor of never passing or testing anyone who does not meet loyalty and many other standards for rank just refuse to test them go to somone else but do not take thier money. Saying you would never sue is rediculous if you have paid for something you should recieve it!! but not being allowed to test is a right of the instructor. The fleecing of America is at heart of what is wrong with commercial MA and the Olympics in general. We have been treated as a commidity to be exploited not by all but in general go to any of the seminars or read the literature promoted on how to run a school it turns my stomach.

Eat the Rich feed the poor


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## igillman

I am sure that there are many reputable instructors out there but until there is a way to tell good from bad I will keep on training at home with no instructor. I have no fancy uniform, no belt, no ceremony and my technique is not too hot but at least I do not have to worry if I am going to be cheated out of a lot of money.

This sort of behaviour reflects badly on the Kukkiwon as well. After all, the certifications are in their name and the instructor is using their name to advertise the business. Unless the kukkiwon starts caring about the issue there is not going to be any change in the situation.


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## puunui

Master Dan said:


> Saying you would never sue is rediculous if you have paid for something you should recieve it!!




I would never sue any of my instructors.... because they would never do anything that would cause me harm. I read all these stories and think to myself if people spent just a little more time in the selection of their teachers, then more people wouldn't find themselves in these types of situations. My teachers don't act the way that other teachers do. That's why I study with them and call them my teachers. What is ridiculous is getting yourself in these types of situations in the first place. Martial arts instructors always preach about avoiding dangerous situations -- these situations are not limited to physical altercations only.


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## troubleenuf

There you go again... that impressive psychic ability that allows you to perceive more than the average bear.  Could it be that you just are one of the LUCKY ones that got good instructors that didnt screw you?



puunui said:


> I would never sue any of my instructors.... because they would never do anything that would cause me harm. I read all these stories and think to myself if people spent just a little more time in the selection of their teachers, then more people wouldn't find themselves in these types of situations. My teachers don't act the way that other teachers do. That's why I study with them and call them my teachers. What is ridiculous is getting yourself in these types of situations in the first place. Martial arts instructors always preach about avoiding dangerous situations -- these situations are not limited to physical altercations only.


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## andyjeffries

troubleenuf said:


> I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee.  I think the last time it was $35.



I ordered a replacement about a month ago, it cost $10 in cash (posted to Korea).


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## Tez3

troubleenuf said:


> There you go again... that impressive psychic ability that allows you to perceive more than the average bear. Could it be that you just are one of the LUCKY ones that got good instructors that didnt screw you?


 
Exactly, how does a complete beginner knowing nothing about martial arts tell a good instructor from a bad one?  Even the most astute have been caught out by instructors who have ripped them off, it usually takes a meeting or conversation with a martial artist who trains under someone else, often on here, before people realise that their instructor isn't all he/she should be. In the case of withholding certificates, everything may have been fine up till that point however, taking money for something and then not handing over that something is fraud.


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## Earl Weiss

Tez3 said:


> . In the case of withholding certificates, everything may have been fine up till that point however, taking money for something and then not handing over that something is fraud.


 
FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year.  On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me. 

In thehandbook , among other things are testing parameters including fees to be charged thru 3rd Dan. (With a disclaimer for possible periodic price increases) and the first dan one year probationary period is disclosed as well. 

So, the issue is not so much witholding, but not delivering as promised. 

As an attorney if someone came to me with an issue like this I would need more 411. If in fact what was promised was not delivered I might write a letter and see what shakes loose. It would cost too much to hire me to file suit and having the stuent pursue a small claim might be a good idea. Referring them to the State Attorney General for a consumer fraud investigation would be more cost effective and better for all potential victims.


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## Tez3

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year. On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.
> 
> In thehandbook , among other things are testing parameters including fees to be charged thru 3rd Dan. (With a disclaimer for possible periodic price increases) and the first dan one year probationary period is disclosed as well.
> 
> So, the issue is not so much witholding, but not delivering as promised.
> 
> As an attorney if someone came to me with an issue like this I would need more 411. If in fact what was promised was not delivered I might write a letter and see what shakes loose. It would cost too much to hire me to file suit and having the stuent pursue a small claim might be a good idea. Referring them to the State Attorney General for a consumer fraud investigation would be more cost effective and better for all potential victims.


 

Sounds fair. If everyone knows where they stand there's far less chance of misunderstandings. I'm not sure about the 'no sue' clause though, I don't know American law of course but here the chances are that won't be valid under a lot of circumstances especially in the health and safety aspects. It's something we have to deal with on MMA shows, many promoters make fighters sign a waiver but it's not actually valid it just leads people to think they can't sue.
Here we have the Trading Standards Office where we can go if we believe we've been defrauded etc. Hiring solicitors is expensive here too!


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## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I would never sue any of my instructors.... because they would never do anything that would cause me harm. I read all these stories and think to myself if people spent just a little more time in the selection of their teachers, then more people wouldn't find themselves in these types of situations. My teachers don't act the way that other teachers do. That's why I study with them and call them my teachers. What is ridiculous is getting yourself in these types of situations in the first place. *Martial arts instructors always preach about avoiding dangerous situations -- these situations are not limited to physical altercations only.*


With the exception of experienced practitioners, most of those signing up for MA lessons are not martial arts instructors.

Again, I do agree, and have commented in the past, that people are remiss in their research into MA schools.  Consumers will put more effort into researching a toaster for a good deal than they will in their choice of school.

However, each of us is responsible for our own actions.  Martial arts instructors also preach about honesty and integrity.  The tenets of one of the larger taekwondo federations actually include such virtues, and many schools do adopt them, even if they are not part of that federation.  They are responsible for their actions when those actions are dishonest or underhanded in some way.  The fact that the student may be gullible or ignorant does not change that in any way.

Another thing is that people change over time.  An individual that I know who instructs was a very different person eight years ago.  He does all the things he swore he'd never do as an instructor.  The change has come mainly over the last four years as the economy has been poor and he has had some personal issues.  Nothing that anyone is going to sue him for; he's a little slow on the draw with association certificates, but he always tells people that they will receive it within six months and they always do.  

But the way that he runs his school now is such that I would never send anyone to him, whereas eight years ago, his school was a fantastic place to train and I used to send people his way all the time (he teaches an art that I do not practice).  Now, it is a glorified daycare center and the adult program has disintegrated as he teaches less and less, often handing the classes off to first and second dan teens, many of whom he skipped past the last couple of belts in order to promote them because he had a staffing need.  

The man is a good man and he certainly knows his stuff.  But the pressures of poor economy, more than one school, and some personal issues (nothing sensational) have caused a major shift in his priorities.

I suspect that new adult students see what he is about and shy away (his classes are mostly kids, and his adult classes tend to be mixed with kids as well).  Parents, on the other hand, just see kids in nice white gis and colorful belts jumping around and having fun.  It looks like a family friendly atmosphere (and actually, it is), so they sign up their kids for one of those obligatory contracts.  The kids get little meaningful training, but are satisfied with a new belt every month or two.

Anyone doing a modicum of research within the past two years would say 'no thanks' unless they were mainly after daycare or just wanted their kid(s) in a pleasant environment.  But eight or nine years back, it was a different story.

Another local school had a sterling reputation for like three or four decades.  Still has a good rep to my knowledge, but the owner passed away and the new owner just 'isn't him.'  I have never heard anything bad about the place, but the glowing praise is not there any longer either.  Could just be that people were enamored with the old man and the new man simply suffers from unjust comparison.  The point is, however, if you signed up five or six years ago, you were taught by the old man, but due to death, that would have changed a year or two after sign up.

Things change.  People change.  Sometimes, there is no way to predict that.

Daniel


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## jks9199

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year.  On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.
> 
> In thehandbook , among other things are testing parameters including fees to be charged thru 3rd Dan. (With a disclaimer for possible periodic price increases) and the first dan one year probationary period is disclosed as well.
> 
> So, the issue is not so much witholding, but not delivering as promised.
> 
> As an attorney if someone came to me with an issue like this I would need more 411. If in fact what was promised was not delivered I might write a letter and see what shakes loose. It would cost too much to hire me to file suit and having the stuent pursue a small claim might be a good idea. Referring them to the State Attorney General for a consumer fraud investigation would be more cost effective and better for all potential victims.


Why do you withhold the certificates?  Has the student completed the requirements and earned it?  Would you make an exception for a student who is moving, for example?

Personally -- I think that if an instructor fails to provide a promised certificate, in the promised time, then that instructor is at best dishonest.  Iin other words -- you disclose ahead of time that you're going to withhold it, that's your deal.  They know it coming in.  But to spring a year delay on them at the end, or to completely fail to provide it -- that's the problem.


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## troubleenuf

Thinking about this and it brings to mind the reasons I have found that people dont want to file a suit against instructors:
#1 reason.  They are "conditioned" to respect that person.  From the time you join class you are taught to bow to the instructor to say yes sir and to respect that person in everything that goes on in the gym.  It becomes ingrained in you.  It is, in many ways, a form of "brain washing" for lack of a better term.  Now granted if the person in charge is what he is supposed to be there is nothing wrong with it.  That is, he deserves the respect and position he/she is given.  However when that person abuses that position then the person beneath him/her has a very difficult time overcoming that conditioning he/she has had during their years of training.  
#2 Reason.  They are afraid of the instructor.  I have had several people who were actually scared that the instructor was going to hunt them down and physically assault them.  This is extreme but it does happen.  This is the same person that eventually a huge mess erupted around and parents brought in a nationally know cult deprogrammer and he left the area.  He ended up killing a lady in a hit and run and ended up doing time in the pen.   Dont know what happened to him after that but this guy was a real piece of work.  
#3 reason... they just dont want to go threw the trouble.  Its easier to just let them get by with it then to go through the headache and stress of taking him to court.  Unfortunately this just allows them to continue to do it to others.


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## Earl Weiss

jks9199 said:


> Why do you withhold the certificates? Has the student completed the requirements and earned it? Would you make an exception for a student who is moving, for example?
> 
> Personally -- I think that if an instructor fails to provide a promised certificate, in the promised time, then that instructor is at best dishonest. Iin other words -- you disclose ahead of time that you're going to withhold it, that's your deal. They know it coming in. But to spring a year delay on them at the end, or to completely fail to provide it -- that's the problem.


 

AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises. 
I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years.  Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Earl Weiss said:


> AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.



At what point do you register them with Kukkiwon?  Why not simply have a club black belt, and do the "kukkiwon test" a year later?


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## andyjeffries

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> At what point do you register them with Kukkiwon?  Why not simply have a club black belt, and do the "kukkiwon test" a year later?



I'm sure the question still stands but Earl is ITF not Kukkiwon. 

As a point of discussion though, I don't know how the kukkiwon would feel in this situation (they dislike instructors issuing their own dan certificates but implicitly approve of chodanbo or provisional dans).


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## Earl Weiss

andyjeffries said:


> I'm sure the question still stands but Earl is ITF not Kukkiwon.
> 
> As a point of discussion though, I don't know how the kukkiwon would feel in this situation (they dislike instructors issuing their own dan certificates but implicitly approve of chodanbo or provisional dans).


 
All certs were applied for and obtained when they passed the test.  Wehnrec'd the certs were "Presented" in class and as per policy it was announced that they would recieve them after completion of the year training period. 

For the record as of 2010, ITF under it's new leadership (Following the untimely death of GM Tran Quan) decided they no longer wanted members who were affiliated with any other non ITF TKD group including the USTF. I, along with others were told I would have to choose between the ITF and USTF.  After 20 years as an ITF Instructor and having been with the ITF since I began training in TKD 1972, I chose the USTF.


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## msmitht

Earl Weiss said:


> AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.
> I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years.  Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.



So if they quit and come back a year later asking for the cert do you give it to them? Sorry, but I don't agree on this matter. Once the cert is issued it has the STUDENTS name on it and is not your property. It belongs to them and whatever psyco babble nonsense you try and spin you are in the wrong for withholding. If one of your students came to me with that story I would charge them ten bucks and order a copy for them. I would also report you to the kkw. 
You are supposed to hand over the certs when you get them.


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## Master Dan

igillman said:


> I am sure that there are many reputable instructors out there but until there is a way to tell good from bad I will keep on training at home with no instructor. I have no fancy uniform, no belt, no ceremony and my technique is not too hot but at least I do not have to worry if I am going to be cheated out of a lot of money.
> 
> This sort of behaviour reflects badly on the Kukkiwon as well. After all, the certifications are in their name and the instructor is using their name to advertise the business. Unless the kukkiwon starts caring about the issue there is not going to be any change in the situation.


+

First I am sad that you can not find anyone to train with and while you may get conditioning of some sort you simply cannot learn what has always been meant to be shared or handed down from one to another. KKW has nothing to do with the behavior of those who are abusing or miss representing it. The KKW is a global support depository for research and education with a data base that confirms completion of curiculum and testing based on what has been submitted to them or actually performed at the KKW. 

You cannot blame the AMA for someone impersonating a Doctor and I would not get on the surgery table with out alot of verification of both thier education, skill and satisfied customers.

To say an uneducated person cannot judge a good from bad school is also rediculous there are common sense ways to judge that like judge a tree by the fruit it bears?

Watch the classes see how many happy and accomplished students look at not just monthly fees but all costs involved. Look at the complete teaching staff, go to a test and observe word of mouth other things.

Does the head instructor or GM have a true love of people and serve both his students and the community? 

I will accept anyone who wants to learn but will not keep anyone or test them for BB with out a true committment to thier personal training and family, a commitment to serve others by teaching others and serving the community. 

Regardless of age all persons need an older wiser role model for guidence and education and regardless of what published price list you may find you cannot pay any price for that wisdom it is shared freely with love to those who deserv it. Luckily we do not need to scale a mountain to find that person and then cut off one of our arms to convince them we are worthy to be taught? but it may take some time for them to trust you and feel comfortable with you. A wise and experienced master will teach you what you need to know and what you are ready to learn.

You cannot get that in your garage or from books or video and you also miss out on the group energy that is generated which you can learn to draw on when needed and if you do have a gift then you should be learning to share that with those less fortunate and you could be rich in people not things.


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## Master Dan

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year. On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.
> 
> In thehandbook , among other things are testing parameters including fees to be charged thru 3rd Dan. (With a disclaimer for possible periodic price increases) and the first dan one year probationary period is disclosed as well.
> 
> So, the issue is not so much witholding, but not delivering as promised.
> 
> As an attorney if someone came to me with an issue like this I would need more 411. If in fact what was promised was not delivered I might write a letter and see what shakes loose. It would cost too much to hire me to file suit and having the stuent pursue a small claim might be a good idea. Referring them to the State Attorney General for a consumer fraud investigation would be more cost effective and better for all potential victims.


 
I am wondering if there is some confusion about probationary black belt? This is actually a term for last test before 1st Dan? but a person who has been invited to test for a Dan Rank pays and tests should have a right to that cert with in resonable time based on application to the KKW? it would seem that no one advances to 2nd Dan with out showing a commitment to training and other things would be the incentive paying for 1st Dan and not recieving for 1 year seems like giving Walmart your credit card being charged and not recieving the product for one year would not be acceptable


----------



## Earl Weiss

msmitht said:


> So if they quit and come back a year later asking for the cert do you give it to them? Sorry, but I don't agree on this matter. Once the cert is issued it has the STUDENTS name on it and is not your property. It belongs to them and whatever psyco babble nonsense you try and spin you are in the wrong for withholding. If one of your students came to me with that story I would charge them ten bucks and order a copy for them. I would also report you to the kkw.
> You are supposed to hand over the certs when you get them.


 
Well, you and I will agree to disagree.

 From the first day they enter the gym and choose to become a student they have written notice for the requirement for getting their ceritficate.  It's a slam dunk winner in any court. 

BTW charging them 10 bucks and reporting me to the KKW would just make you look silly. 
(I know, my bad for joining a KKW thread


----------



## Earl Weiss

Master Dan said:


> I am wondering if there is some confusion about probationary black belt? This is actually a term for last test before 1st Dan? but a person who has been invited to test for a Dan Rank pays and tests should have a right to that cert with in resonable time based on application to the KKW? it would seem that no one advances to 2nd Dan with out showing a commitment to training and other things would be the incentive paying for 1st Dan and not recieving for 1 year seems like giving Walmart your credit card being charged and not recieving the product for one year would not be acceptable


 
The confusion is caused in part by me. I am not KKW. So, any "probationary" BB definition realting to the KKW as no relevance to the probation I impose. I was just providing an example. Students know the deal from day 1. We both agree to abode by that deal. 

AFAIAC the Walmart analogy fails since if a student views my teaching solely as a commodity, we are already operating on different wavelengths.


----------



## msmitht

Earl Weiss said:


> Well, you and I will agree to disagree.
> 
> From the first day they enter the gym and choose to become a student they have written notice for the requirement for getting their ceritficate.  It's a slam dunk winner in any court.
> 
> BTW charging them 10 bucks and reporting me to the KKW would just make you look silly.
> (I know, my bad for joining a KKW thread



Does that mean you are itf/ata/some other tkd and not kkw? 
If so, then it does not matter to me what you do. I still think you are in the wrong for not giving certs. Cheers!


----------



## hoshindo

Mr. Weiss: Question to you. It has been many years since I did any itf systems.
If a student does move and if they have the numbers can another USTF school or instructor order a copy  from the HQ ?  What is the time line for 2nd Dan ( KKW is around 1 year) from USTF? Is the 2nd Dan cert. held for a year also. Just getting info because I have students that come to me with different questions about why so much differents between Taekwondo schools

Jim


----------



## Earl Weiss

msmitht said:


> Does that mean you are itf/ata/some other tkd and not kkw?
> If so, then it does not matter to me what you do. I still think you are in the wrong for not giving certs. Cheers!


 

Correct.


----------



## Earl Weiss

hoshindo said:


> Mr. Weiss: Question to you. It has been many years since I did any itf systems.
> If a student does move and if they have the numbers can another USTF school or instructor order a copy from the HQ ? What is the time line for 2nd Dan ( KKW is around 1 year) from USTF? Is the 2nd Dan cert. held for a year also. Just getting info because I have students that come to me with different questions about why so much differents between Taekwondo schools
> 
> Jim


 
First and foremost. The one year probation for first dan is not a USTF policy. It is my policy. Something developed by my instructor over 30 years ago, and adopted by me over 20 years ago.  No probationary period or holding of certificates for 2nd Dan. Minimum active time in grade for 2nd Dan in the USTF is a minimum of 18 months with a minimum of 7 classes per month. The time runs from the first Dan test date. 

Replacement certificates can be ordered from USTF HQ. They may contact the instructor to find out if anything unusual is going on.


----------



## Kurai

Earl Weiss said:


> AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.
> I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years.  Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.




I don't understand why an instructor would have to "force" a student to see that there is something beyond first dan.  I would think that an instructors continued advancement and improvement would give the student reason to train beyond first dan.

Forcing them by withholding the cert definitely sounds like a way to keep the class tuition coming in.  In my opinion, not a good way either.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That is a toughie.  I do agree that a student has an obligation to do research into the place that they are going to train, but, the level of specific research and the information that you and I can pick up right off the bat is much more informative than what a new student can.  That difference becomes even greater when it is a parent shopping for the student and not the student themselves. Daniel




I don't know, I think my parents and grandfather did a pretty good job of selecting my early teachers. What they did was go with people that they knew for a long time, and they also asked my uncle (who lived next door to us), who had been involved in the martial arts as well. They had no idea who was good and who was not, but instead they asked people who they trusted.


----------



## granfire

puunui said:


> I would never sue my instructor for anything. Certainly not for a certificate.



Hmm, come on over, bring a wad of money...I am sure I can teach you something...

If he/she screws you over....why roll over and play dead and let them get away with?

Having to suck up to somebody to receive what you already paid for...sure fire way to lose my loyalty!


----------



## Archtkd

Earl Weiss said:


> AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.
> I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years. Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.


 
That we have now come to a stage where we need to master how to battle our teachers in legal court, while the teach us how to fight on the streets and mats, is sad. I see no problem with the above, though. If Master Weiss' students clearly understand what they are getting into and sign paperwork to that effect, what's the issue to sue about. Many Kukkiwon practioners here are writing as if there are laid down hard and fast rules, enforceable in American courts, that regulate how, when and why they should recommend students for Dan certification or how much they should charge. There's are no such things. 

The story would be very different if an instructor trained and then charged a student $3,000 for a Kukkiwon Poom certificate, which they then ddn't deliver that's a different story.


----------



## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> There you go again... that impressive psychic ability that allows you to perceive more than the average bear.



impressive psychic ability has nothing to do with it. 




troubleenuf said:


> Could it be that you just are one of the LUCKY ones that got good instructors that didnt screw you?



No, I don't believe in the concept of luck, at least as it relates to the selection of a martial arts teacher. Instead, I believe in choice, because that concept allows me to take responsibility for my life. Luck, blaming others for one's situation etc. are rationalizations or attitudes which reinforce the idea that we are not in control of our own lives, that someone or something else is the cause of our woes. 

For example, if I remember your situation correctly, you were with your instructor for 18 years, teaching classes, and he promised you that one day he would give you the school. He then reneged on his promise, which made you angry. If I were in your situation, or rather, when I was in your situation, I think that 18 years in the same school is too long, that anything past 3rd or 4th Dan is too long, and I would have opened up my own school on my own, which you eventually did anyway. If in the future, your instructor did end up giving you his school, terrific, but if he didn't then no harm no foul because you had your own school, which you built yourself. 

An analogy would be your parents promise to give you their house. you move out of your parent's house and buy your own house, then you make that yours. If your parents still end up giving you their house (which may or may not be better than the house you bought on your own), great. If they don't, then it doesn't matter because you already have your own house. And if they change their mind and give their house to your sister instead, well, it's their money and they can do whatever they want with it. 

Or you can live in your parent's house, living on the promise that they will give your their house. At some point, they sell the house and/or give their money to your younger sister, at which point, you have no house and you get very angry, at your parents and sister. 

Which is the healthier perspective?


----------



## Twin Fist

any instructor that pulled this crap would be told to kiss every square inch of my ***.




troubleenuf said:


> Since this has come up several times let me give you some input from experience.  We have several instructors in my area/state who "withhold" certificates from students who have passed their tests and have paid for their tests.  We also have those who have not applied for certificates for those who have paid for them.  When those people come to me I have helped them get their certificates.  If their certificate has been applied for and the instructor has been "holding" it that makes it easy.  I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee.  I think the last time it was $35.
> Several times the people have chosen to take the instructors in question to small claims court.  It is inexpensive to do this.  In ALL cases they have come out the winner.  Its very simple.  The judge asks the instructor if the student paid for the test.  The instructor says yes (hard to say no when you have a canceled check and they know it), the judge asks if they are Kukkiwon certified (again hard to say no when its all over their website that they are), the judge asks them were their certificate is?  They come up with all kinds of stupid things here but in the end the judge gives them two choices... give them the certificate or give them their money back.  In the one case that I was a "witness" in the instructor refused to give them the certificate so he chose to give them their test fee back ($550 he charged them)  He then tore up the certificate in front of the student and walked out.  I patted her on the back and laughed, and got her a duplicate within two weeks for $35.  Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.
> Bottom line:  If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it.  Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.


----------



## Twin Fist

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year.  On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.




and I would tell you to kiss my butt too...

if i test, and pass that cert is MINE. I paid for it, and there is NO reason to hold onto it other than to make sure you can get more dues out of them.

screw that


----------



## puunui

granfire said:


> Hmm, come on over, bring a wad of money...I am sure I can teach you something...
> 
> If he/she screws you over....why roll over and play dead and let them get away with?
> 
> Having to suck up to somebody to receive what you already paid for...sure fire way to lose my loyalty!



I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which was I would never sue my instructors because they would never do this sort of thing to me. As for receiving what you already paid for, he already got that, which was the training. 

Back in high school, I was taking kung fu from this certain instructor. I learned a lot of things, which lead me to other things, the end result being that I developed a specific methodology for developing concepts and techniques, which I still follow today. I did make it to the 3rd level in the style, but quit soon after taking that test. I never received my certificate, even though some of my classmates did receive theirs. It didn't bother me because I got what I came for, which was the knowledge that the teacher possessed. I still see this teacher around, at the store, or the mall or the gas station, or where ever, every couple of years or so, and when I do, it is always very pleasant and we are reminded of that time so many years ago. Some were very angry at him because they felt that he held back a lot of information, and one of my seniors (who later became my teacher as well when he opened his own school) went so far as to bring the head instructor of our style to Hawaii to have my original teacher forcibly removed from the organization. 

I certainly don't harbor any resentment for not getting my certificate (didn't get my 2nd level certificate either), mainly because I am grateful for what was given to me, which was a methodology which I still carry with me today, something that I could not have developed without the assistance and teachings for the first teacher. He helped me immensely, with or without those certificates.


----------



## puunui

Tez3 said:


> Exactly, how does a complete beginner knowing nothing about martial arts tell a good instructor from a bad one?




The fact that you don't know the answer to a question doesn't necessarily mean that everyone doesn't know the answer either.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> First and foremost. The one year probation for first dan is not a USTF policy. It is my policy. Something developed by my instructor over 30 years ago, and adopted by me over 20 years ago.




I give the certificate as soon as I get them. I don't believe in withholding them for a length of time. If they quit soon thereafter, oh well. If they stay, great.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> With the exception of experienced practitioners, most of those signing up for MA lessons are not martial arts instructors.



Some of the people complaining the loudest on here are experienced practitioners. One claims 30 years in Taekwondo, and another is a Goju Ryu 3rd Dan. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Again, I do agree, and have commented in the past, that people are remiss in their research into MA schools.  Consumers will put more effort into researching a toaster for a good deal than they will in their choice of school.



I think for beginners, this is ok for the most part. I think that most schools can give you at least the basics of the art. But if you are seeking more, then perhaps it is time to choose another teacher, after 1st Dan. I read an article in Psychology Today a long time ago about the development of masters. It talked about mastery in any field, and explained that masters tend to follow the same general path. Included in that path was the selection of three different teachers, depending on the stage of development of the student. I think most of today's issues have to do with students staying too long or expecting too much from their level 1 teacher. When you are in high school, you learn from high school teachers. When you are in college, you have different types of teachers, and often times you have to move away and/or travel long distances to study with them. I think it is a waste to see someone who is your Ph.D thesis advisor teaching preschool students their ABCs, in the same way that I think it is a waste to expect your high school english teacher to be a very good Ph.D advisor. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> However, each of us is responsible for our own actions.  Martial arts instructors also preach about honesty and integrity.  The tenets of one of the larger taekwondo federations actually include such virtues, and many schools do adopt them, even if they are not part of that federation.  They are responsible for their actions when those actions are dishonest or underhanded in some way.  The fact that the student may be gullible or ignorant does not change that in any way.



I leave the job of exposing my teacher's weaknesses or undeveloped areas or areas that they are working on for other people. Personally, I choose not to scream angrily on a public message board about all the bad things my teacher (or for that matter my parents) did to me, or what I thought they did to me.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Another thing is that people change over time.  An individual that I know who instructs was a very different person eight years ago.  He does all the things he swore he'd never do as an instructor.  The change has come mainly over the last four years as the economy has been poor and he has had some personal issues.  Nothing that anyone is going to sue him for; he's a little slow on the draw with association certificates, but he always tells people that they will receive it within six months and they always do.  But the way that he runs his school now is such that I would never send anyone to him, whereas eight years ago, his school was a fantastic place to train and I used to send people his way all the time (he teaches an art that I do not practice).  Now, it is a glorified daycare center and the adult program has disintegrated as he teaches less and less, often handing the classes off to first and second dan teens, many of whom he skipped past the last couple of belts in order to promote them because he had a staffing need.  The man is a good man and he certainly knows his stuff.  But the pressures of poor economy, more than one school, and some personal issues (nothing sensational) have caused a major shift in his priorities.



Sounds like he did the same thing Hattori Hanzo did in Kill Bill 1, closed the sword making school down and instead opened up a sushiya.


----------



## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> Unfortunately not everyone is gifted with your obvious psychic ability.



Obvious psychic ability has nothing to with it. 




troubleenuf said:


> If there is a substantiated school that has been in business for a period of time most people who are new to martial arts have no clue as to what questions to ask or what to look for when they walk in the door.  For that matter the school could have opened yesterday and 99% of the new people walking in the door still would not know what questions to ask and what to look for.  In 31 years I have had all of 3 people ask about my certification that actually knew what it meant and that was because they had previous experience.  Many new people dont know if a first degree outranks a 7th degree or visa versa.  So how can you say them getting screwed by an unscrupulous instructor is partly their fault.



The fact that only 3 people in 31 years asked about your certification should give you a clue as to how much they care about their own certification, which puts your whole premise that they were "screwed" into question. 




troubleenuf said:


> Thats like saying you knew there was a chance the plane was going to crash so it was your fault you took the flight.



It's more like saying if you need a plumber do you go with a referral from someone you know, or do you give the gypsie who knocks on your door and asks for huge cash up front a chance? 

But actually, we do take a risk every time we get on an airplane, and there always is that risk that the plane will crash which everyone is aware of. So in that sense, it is partially your fault for getting on the plane in the first place, if it crashes. 

The way I see it, the instructor who does not turn over the Kukkiwon or whatever else certificate is playing the percentages, that the overwhelming majority will not complain about it. Using an analogy, Wal-Mart stores have highly polished floors which are very slippery if any sort of liquid gets on it. They know that the risk of slips and falls is greater than if they used some sort of other flooring, but they choose to use that highly polished floor, for whatever reason. They are willing to take the risk of someone slipping, falling and getting injured on that highly polished floor (which they wax every night around midnight) in exchange for some perceived value to them. Contrast this to a new McDonalds. Their floors are like sand paper.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> and I would tell you to kiss my butt too...
> 
> if i test, and pass that cert is MINE. I paid for it, and there is NO reason to hold onto it other than to make sure you can get more dues out of them.
> 
> screw that


No you didn't pay for the cert.  You paid for the test.  Any material items that are go along with them are strictly up to the discretion of the teacher.  At no time did they ever say as soon as you test you get everything the next day.  

As for you saying kiss my butt...I would simply tell you not to let my door hit it on your way out.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I don't know, I think my parents and grandfather did a pretty good job of selecting my early teachers. What they did was go with people that they knew for a long time, and they also asked my uncle (who lived next door to us), who had been involved in the martial arts as well. They had no idea who was good and who was not, but instead they asked people who they trusted.


Law of averages is in your favor: most instructors are honest people. Chances are, you will end up with a reasonable person even if you do zero research.

But look at what your parents and grandfather did: they did research and went to someone who was not only trusted, but had knowledge of the martial arts.  In other words, they did it correctly, and likely at a time when searching out info on the web was not an option. 

On the one hand, not everyone has access to a knowledgeable person,* but* on the other hand, as I have stated previously, the average consumer will put more time and research into getting a good deal on a toaster than they will into researching an MA school for themselves or their kids. 

Most choose based on location and schedule.  After these, atmosphere and price.

Sadly, most will never get beyond those items in their 'research.'

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

miguksaram said:


> No you didn't pay for the cert.  You paid for the test.  Any material items that are go along with them are strictly up to the discretion of the teacher.  At no time did they ever say as soon as you test you get everything the next day.
> 
> As for you saying kiss my butt...I would simply tell you not to let my door hit it on your way out.



no

the cert is proof of the sucessfull test, and it is the property of the person testing.

if you go to college, and pass, they cant NOT give you your degree without just cause. "to prove thier loyalty" is ********, as if "to make sure they keep working out"

if they want to quit 1 day after getting thier black belt, thats thier right, an instructor has NO RIGHT to withold thier property to illicit more monthly dues

i cannot believe anyone supports or endorses this BS practice.

this aint 18th century china and we aint monks, we are customers paying for a service, and if you dont provide that service, you dont deserve that customer


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> no
> 
> the cert is proof of the sucessfull test, and it is the property of the person testing.
> 
> if you go to college, and pass, they cant NOT give you your degree without just cause. "to prove thier loyalty" is ********, as if "to make sure they keep working out"



You can not compare a college degree with a rank promotion.  First and  foremost it is stated when you enroll in a college that you will receive  a certificate after completion of so many class hours.  Unless your  instructor states or has written down after you do the physical test you  will receive your black belt certificate, he/she has not obligation to  certify you after a test.



			
				TF said:
			
		

> if they want to quit 1 day after getting thier black belt, thats thier right, an instructor has NO RIGHT to withold thier property to illicit more monthly dues


You are absolutely right.  If I gave you belt and you quit...then so be it.  Doesn't mean I have to give you a certificate.  If I really wanted to push it I would just tell you part of your test is that you have to spend 1 year teaching as a black belt before I certify you.  That is MY right as an instructor.  I gave you a belt test, not a certification test.  



			
				TF said:
			
		

> i cannot believe anyone supports or endorses this BS practice.
> 
> this aint 18th century china and we aint monks, we are customers paying for a service, and if you dont provide that service, you dont deserve that customer


You are right...if this was 18th century this wouldn't even be a discussion because a teacher/student relationship was never about business.  However since you want to treat it like a business then know that service was provided.  You were taught martial arts.  You were given a test and you have a belt as a reward.  Congrats. Unless your contract stipulates that you will receive a piece a paper right after the test.  You have nothing else to really b!tch about.  

But now I'm curious, after years of working with your instructor you still view him simply as a business?  Do you view your students only as customers?


----------



## terryl965

Well here come me the little engine that could: All this fuss about a certificate and no where to hide. I mean lets look at this from my perspective, I train for four years and pay my due's every month some months I am late and forget to pay the late fee's associated with the school and I bounce a couple of check as well and never paid the bad check fee's. My instructor never says anything, I pay for my Black Belt test and pass and when it is time for me to recieve my certificate he simply says you owe money to the school and he holds my certificate. Is that a big deal no not really it is just like a college where you pay to be there and lost a library book and never paid for it when ou graduate and they say you still owe money to the school so we are holding your certificate. Not a big deal because in both cases pay the fines and go about your business.

In a Martial Art enviroment we pay to be tested and expect a certificate bgut in reality you have only paid for the test. The belt and certificate is not part of the actual test but most school award them as well along with the test. I do not see a problem holding someone certifcate if that has been explain to them up front or it is in a general book of rules with the school. I believe some here are getting the two or maybe three step process mixed up.  Mr. Wiess has all ready said it is his rule and his people know up front that is great because nobody is blind sided when it happens. The instructor that just refuse to deliver because they are either to cheap or just a crook are the ones I am going to talk about next.

These are the ones that have no integrity or respect for anybody and are scam artist, me I have been done in a bad way a couple of times but was it worth me getting upset over no, I simply explain to the instructor they had two choices court or giving me my money back. One simply said well you failed and that is why I did not get you your certificate, him I had nothing to say but ok and I will retest when you believe I am ready again. Go to find out he failed everybody and never delivered one certificate to alot of people in a one year period, he is curently in jail for fraud not by us but by some other person for a joint venture.

In all my years of training Ihave found more unethical TKD people than other arts I have taken, it seems like greed and a since of I am better than you really takes over when money becomes the biggest equation. 

In closing whether you should or should not hold a ce\rtifcate is solely up to each school and that instructor. As far as knowing it up front when you sign up for his services. but in the end we are here to learn and a certficate should not matter except you want to be a school owner and train people or you are an elite fighter.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> You can not compare a college degree with a rank promotion. First and foremost it is stated when you enroll in a college that you will receive a certificate after completion of so many class hours. Unless your instructor states or has written down after you do the physical test you will receive your black belt certificate, he/she has not obligation to certify you after a test.
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right. If I gave you belt and you quit...then so be it. Doesn't mean I have to give you a certificate. If I really wanted to push it I would just tell you part of your test is that you have to spend 1 year teaching as a black belt before I certify you. That is MY right as an instructor. I gave you a belt test, not a certification test.
> 
> 
> You are right...if this was 18th century this wouldn't even be a discussion because a teacher/student relationship was never about business. However since you want to treat it like a business then know that service was provided. You were taught martial arts. You were given a test and you have a belt as a reward. Congrats. Unless your contract stipulates that you will receive a piece a paper right after the test. You have nothing else to really b!tch about.
> 
> But now I'm curious, after years of working with your instructor you still view him simply as a business? Do you view your students only as customers?


I could take what you said above a whole lot more seriously if you had not been up there on this thread, http://www.martialtalk.com//forum/showthread.php?t=95536, defending a three grand pum test (though not the failure to provide the cert) and saying this:



miguksaram said:


> Yes and no. Could be plain laziness not delivering the goods. One of those things that he keeps putting off. Not saying it is justified, just might not be greed. Again I don't fault him for charging an outrageous price. *He has every right as a business to charge whatever he feels like.* That is beauty of capitalism. If he can get 50 people to pay him that money, then hats off to him. Greed? Maybe. As a QA Analyst for software I get a pretty decent pay. A bit more then I need for basic survival for my family. Should I tell them that I want less money because they are paying me more than I really need? I don't think so. Come next year I am going to bug the crap out of them for a raise.


 
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot promote the idea of MA schools charging large sums of money and their owners living large and then invoke some 18th century model of student teacher relationship. Obviously, you *do* believe that it is a business transaction. 

Regarding your contention that the student is paying for a test and not a certificate, that is also a falacy. Part of that testing fee is the registration fee with the Kukkiwon or whatever organization you certify your students through, so you are incorrect in saying that the student has not paid for the certification. 

So, yes, T/F is correct. If you *charged* a student money for a test and *processed* the paperwork, then that certificate does belong to him or her. It was issued to him or her by the Kukkiwon or other issuing organization. Nowhere on a Kukkiwon certficate do you see the school owner or instructor's name. I must thoroughly disagree with your contention that it is not the student's property. 

I am not going to comment on Earl's way of handling it, as his students know up front and can choose to take the plunge or not.

I will say that the shenanigans played with tests and certificates would be considered dubious at best in most fields outside of the martial arts.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> In a Martial Art enviroment we pay to be tested and expect a certificate bgut in reality you have only paid for the test. *The belt and certificate is not part of the actual test but most school award them as well along with the test.* I do not see a problem holding someone certifcate if that has been explain to them up front or it is in a general book of rules with the school. I believe some here are getting the two or maybe three step process mixed up. Mr. Wiess has all ready said it is his rule and his people know up front that is great because nobody is blind sided when it happens. The instructor that just refuse to deliver because they are either to cheap or just a crook are the ones I am going to talk about next.


I am sorry Terry, but this is blatantly wrong unless your school does not process dan certs through an organization, and yours does.

If you charge more than the cost of a Kukkiwon first dan certificate (seventy dollars if I recall) and a belt (embroidered blackbelts are fifteen to twenty dollars cost to the school, baring some high end belt such as an Eosin Panther belt), then they very much are paying for the belt and certificate.

If you wish to contend that they only pay to test, then don't charge testing fees.  Otherwise, you have no moral or ethical, and I suspect legal, grounds to stand on if you choose to withold a certificate.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I could take what you said above a whole lot more seriously if you had not been up there defending a three grand pum test (though not the failure to provide the cert) and railing against anything that resembles implying that MA studio owners should not be making a comfortable, if not wealthy living.
> 
> You cannot have it both ways.  You cannot promote the idea of MA schools charging large sums of money and their owners living large and then invoke some 18th century model of student teacher relationship.



The only thing I was advocating is a person's right to do LEGAL business the way they see fit.  If you look back on that post I also said that I personally would not do that.  However, I will not condemn someone who does it just because i do not believe in that practice.  

I also do not subscribe to holding a person's certificate for one year either.  However, I understand Mst. Weiss's reasoning behind it and it is his legal right to do so unless he stipulated either verbally or in writing that he would provide a certificate the moment the student passed the test.  He may have already notified the students that he will not issue a certificate until one year after their test.  If that is the case then the students do this knowing the end result.  People are assuming that he is not letting anyone know of his plans at all.



			
				DS said:
			
		

> Regarding your contention that the student is paying for a test and not a certificate, part of that testing fee is the registration fee with the Kukkiwon or whatever organization you certify your students through, so you are incorrect in saying that the student has not paid for the certification.


It may or may not be.  Just because you charge the certification fee within a testing fee doesn't mean everyone does.  Seems like you are basing your opinion on how you function.  I can charge for a belt test, but have a separate fee for certification.  



			
				DS said:
			
		

> So, yes, T/F is correct.  If you *charged* a student money for a test and *processed* the paperwork, then that certificate does belong to him or her.  It was issued to him or her by the Kukkiwon or other issuing organization.  Nowhere on a Kukkiwon certficate do you see the school owner or instructor's name.  I must thoroughly disagree with your contention that it is not the student's property.


Which we have already seen example that if an instructor tells the student that they will receive a cert after payment and test AND then holds a cert after a student paid for the cert then they will be in the wrong.  That is not what I'm advocating.  What I am saying that if there is no promise of any certification with the testing via verbal or written, then the instructor is not obligated to give a student a certificate right after the test.  They can wait for as long as they deem fit.  



			
				DS said:
			
		

> I am not going to comment on Earl's way of handling it, as his students know up front and can choose to take the plunge or not.
> 
> I will say that the shenanigans played with tests and certificates would be considered dubious at best in most fields outside of the martial arts.


 And most places would have items stated in writing that you will receive some sort of certification after you pass their test.  If this agreement was already acknowledge by both student and teacher that they will receive a cert after they pass the physical testing then, I am full agreement that the teach is in the wrong for holding it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> It may or may not be. Just because you charge the certification fee within a testing fee doesn't mean everyone does. Seems like you are basing your opinion on how you function.


Been around long enough to know that it is not just how I function. Over thirty years in MA and I 've never seen anyone do otherwise. Apparently, the notion of doing otherwise is not common, as you seem to be the only one suggesting it.



miguksaram said:


> I can charge for a belt test, but have a separate fee for certification.


Do you? And if so, how much is your first dan test and how much are you charging for the belt and registration?

And again, in this scenario, the student has still paid for the cert. They just paid it as a separate fee, which make the whole thing semantics. So you do not own the certificate, nor does your school, as you contend here:


miguksaram said:


> No you didn't pay for the cert. You paid for the test. Any material items that are go along with them are strictly up to the discretion of the teacher. At no time did they ever say as soon as you test you get everything the next day.


In either scenario, they paid the fee for the certificate.  Your name is not on your student's KKW cert. It is issued to your student. You cannot claim ownership of it and it is not at the discretion of the teacher.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Been around long enough to know that it is not just how I function. Over thirty years in MA and I 've never seen anyone do otherwise. Apparently, the notion of doing otherwise is not common, as you seem to be the only one suggesting it.


Congrats on being around for 30 years.  That has been the same for me.  And the method is more common than you think.  There are a lot of independent schools out there that have no affiliation with organizations.  There are some that will only issue dan certs from their own school and give you options for KKW, or AKA or whatever.




> Do you? And if so, how much is your first dan test and how much are you charging for the belt and registration?


A)  No I do not do it that way.  However, I know of schools that do
B)  At our school we charge $200.00 for 1st Dan.  That includes a belt and A.K.A. BB Cert.



> And again, in this scenario, the student has still paid for the cert. They just paid it as a separate fee, which make the whole thing semantics. So you do not own the certificate, nor does your school, as you contend here:
> 
> In either scenario, they paid the fee for the certificate.  Your name is not on your student's KKW cert. It is issued to your student. You cannot claim ownership of it and it is not at the discretion of the teacher.
> 
> Daniel


This just goes back to what I trying to say is that the instructor should honor the understood agreement they have with the student.  If that means they need to provide a cert after testing, then so be it.  If that means the cert is dependent on the student's activities after the test ok.  

Just because the student has his name on the cert doesn't mean it is his.  If I had the clout, and money, to promote Glenn to 8th dan and did it, then not give it to him, he can not say it is his if he never paid for it.  Now he could go to KKW and get a copy of it and has every right to do so.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> Just because the student has his name on the cert doesn't mean it is his. If I had the clout, and money, to promote Glenn to 8th dan and did it, then not give it to him, he can not say it is his if he never paid for it. Now he could go to KKW and get a copy of it and has every right to do so.


That is a different discussion. My comments regarding the name on the cert were paired with that of the school having charged the student a fee for the cert. 

As far as independent schools go, I addressed that in my response to Terry. 

However, this is a thread about KKW certificates, not indy schools' in house certs.  I have several of those: my HKD and kumdo certs are both essentially school certificates.  I also have a dojang-dan TKD certificate as well as a KKW cert.  The two are different ranks (school cert is higher) but in TKD conversations, I generally always refer to my KKW cert and rank.

In an independent school, the student is charged a fee for the test, which most likely includes the certificate (cost to an independent school for the cert is minimal) and the belt.



miguksaram said:


> This just goes back to what I trying to say is that the instructor should honor the understood agreement they have with the student. If that means they need to provide a cert after testing, then so be it. If that means the cert is dependent on the student's activities after the test ok.


Assuming that it is agreed upon at the outset, I have no problem with a probationary witholding of the cert.  I specifically did not comment on Earl's method because regardless of what I think of it (neutral to the idea), he is being fair and ethical about his implementation of it.  

But if you are going to invoke all of this 'master/student' relationship stuff as your reason why it is not a business transaction, then you need to take the business out of the transaction.  

In other words, don't charge for a test.  

If schools did not charge for their tests, then there would be no such issues as those detailed in this thread.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am sorry Terry, but this is blatantly wrong unless your school does not process dan certs through an organization, and yours does.
> 
> If you charge more than the cost of a Kukkiwon first dan certificate (seventy dollars if I recall) and a belt (embroidered blackbelts are fifteen to twenty dollars cost to the school, baring some high end belt such as an Eosin Panther belt), then they very much are paying for the belt and certificate.
> 
> If you wish to contend that they only pay to test, then don't charge testing fees. Otherwise, you have no moral or ethical, and I suspect legal, grounds to stand on if you choose to withold a certificate.
> 
> Daniel


 

Daniel let me say this again, at my school they have a choice of certificates: One would be an ordinary house certificate because they do not wish to be certified though any org. and that is part of my testing fee of $150.00. For that they get a new belt uniform and house certificate, which really means little to any other school so for me it is like not giving one. So they are paying for the test, uniform and belt. Then if they want a KKW they need to pay the KKW not me so once again in my eyes I am not recieving money for a certificate, just the test,uniform and belt. Lastly the may want an AAU certificate once again they pay the AAU Tae kwon do program, me the paid for the test, uniform and belt.

You see that is what I am saying they do not pay me for a certificate they pay me for the test, uniform and belt and my house cert. which is worth something to me and them but nobody else. I hope I made mayself more understandable this way.

I do not see my myself as an issuer of certificates just the person giving the test for those testing.:asian:


----------



## Archtkd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Another thing is that people change over time.  An individual that I know who instructs was a very different person eight years ago.  He does all the things he swore he'd never do as an instructor.  The change has come mainly over the last four years as the economy has been poor and he has had some personal issues.  Nothing that anyone is going to sue him for; he's a little slow on the draw with association certificates, but he always tells people that they will receive it within six months and they always do.
> 
> But the way that he runs his school now is such that I would never send anyone to him, whereas eight years ago, his school was a fantastic place to train and I used to send people his way all the time (he teaches an art that I do not practice).  Now, it is a glorified daycare center and the adult program has disintegrated as he teaches less and less, often handing the classes off to first and second dan teens, many of whom he skipped past the last couple of belts in order to promote them because he had a staffing need.
> 
> The man is a good man and he certainly knows his stuff.  But the pressures of poor economy, more than one school, and some personal issues (nothing sensational) have caused a major shift in his priorities.
> 
> I suspect that new adult students see what he is about and shy away



I know an excellent Korean Taekwondoin who's like the teacher you describe. I can't tell precisely what changed him, but I suspect it's a suburban market that kept demanding mediocre, soft, "everybody must win" training in exchange for higher and higher certifications. He got tired of being shouted at by monied parents who claimed he was pushing kids too hard. He was worn down by adults who kept thinking the dojang is just another health club and treating him like a fitness instructor who spots weights for you and hands out towels. He finally discovered he could make money without doing any real work and charge higher fees for his own basement certificates. (Nobody seemed to mind when he quit recommending Kukkiwon certificates). Sad, sad, but a lot of people out there are helping to destroy good teachers and then complaining.


----------



## Twin Fist

i aint never heard of any of this BS either, and I have been around since Reagan's first term in office

this is nothing but robbery

you go to ANY type of school, and you pass, and they wont give you your certification? you can sue them.

this is no different

and YES< i consider my students customers, they aint friends and i dont want any disciples, they are customers paying me for a service.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> Daniel let me say this again, at my school they have a choice of certificates: One would be an ordinary house certificate because they do not wish to be certified though any org. and that is part of my testing fee of $150.00. For that they get a new belt uniform and house certificate, which really means little to any other school so for me it is like not giving one. So they are paying for the test, uniform and belt. Then if they want a KKW they need to pay the KKW not me so once again in my eyes I am not recieving money for a certificate, just the test,uniform and belt. Lastly the may want an AAU certificate once again they pay the AAU Tae kwon do program, me the paid for the test, uniform and belt.
> 
> You see that is what I am saying they do not pay me for a certificate they pay me for the test, uniform and belt and my house cert. which is worth something to me and them but nobody else. I hope I made mayself more understandable this way.
> 
> I do not see my myself as an issuer of certificates just the person giving the test for those testing.:asian:


It isn't a question of how you see yourself.

If you (the general you) are willing to test them, then there is no reason to withold a certificate.  If you have a policy that a student who passes their test gets a certificate, then if they pass the test, then you owe them a certificate.  

You're charging them 150.00.  Between an embroidered belt, a dobok, and a certificate, you are probably still netting one hundred dollars (assuming that you have a wholesale account).  Why the mentality that a certificate is somehow not a part of that fee?  For an in house dan, you have zero paperwork to process.  Certificates come off of a printer.  Or from Office Depot with a nice glossy appearance, but minimal expense.  

The mentality that you, even if you never exercise it, have some kind of weird right to hold their belt and certificate over their heads after you charge them more than a months tuition for a test that is certainly not a month long is puzzling.  

Again, if you want to be able to hold that stuff over their heads, then don't charge for the test.  At that point, you have given the student everything that they have paid for (how ever many years of training) and you owe them nothing.

If they want a KKW cert, and you are asking only for the filing fee from them, then they are still paying it.  The fact that you are collecting it separately does not change that, and at that point, you owe them the certificate and have no good reason to hold it over their head (barring some kind of prearranged agreement as Earl does).  If you pay the filing fee, and refuse to take money from them for it, then that is a different story, but according to you, that is not the case, as you require them to pay for it.

I have no doubt that you are very, very above board with your students, and I hold you in very high regard.  But the mentality that you and other express regarding testing and fees is severely flawed and is likely part of what gives rise to situations similar to the one discussed in the OP where an instructor was proud to have kept over fifty students from receiving their certificates.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Archtkd said:


> I know an excellent Korean Taekwondoin who's like the teacher you describe. I can't tell precisely what changed him, but I suspect it's a suburban market that kept demanding mediocre, soft, "everybody must win" training in exchange for higher and higher certifications. He got tired of being shouted at by monied parents who claimed he was pushing kids too hard. He was worn down by adults who kept thinking the dojang is just another health club and treating him like a fitness instructor who spots weights for you and hands out towels. He finally discovered he could make money without doing any real work and charge higher fees for his own basement certificates. (Nobody seemed to mind when he quit recommending Kukkiwon certificates). Sad, sad, but a lot of people out there are helping to destroy good teachers and then complaining.


I am 99% positive that that is the case with the gent that I know.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The mentality that you, even if you never exercise it, have some kind of weird right to hold their belt and certificate over their heads after you charge them more than a months tuition for a test that is certainly not a month long is puzzling.




that aint what i call it, but then you are a nicer guy than me


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> i aint never heard of any of this BS either, and I have been around since Reagan's first term in office
> 
> this is nothing but robbery
> 
> you go to ANY type of school, and you pass, and they wont give you your certification? you can sue them.
> 
> this is no different
> 
> and YES< i consider my students customers, they aint friends and i dont want any disciples, they are customers paying me for a service.


Indeed.  

Unless you are teaching for free or on some kind of non-profit basis, where they are essentially contributing only to the cost of the space, then students are customers paying for a service.  

And even if an instructor does not see it that way, I will guarantee that if your tuition is in line with or higher than that of other schools in your area, your students consider themselves your customers too.

Also, regardless of how you perceive it, if your student takes you to court over a KKW cert, or any other cert, that is how the legal system will see your relationship to your students as well.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> But the mentality that you and other express regarding testing and fees is severely flawed and is likely part of what gives rise to situations similar to the one discussed in the OP where an instructor was proud to have kept over fifty students from receiving their certificates.



My 2 cents:  if the student has met the requirements for their rank, including any mandatory testing, then give them the certificate if it is part of your offering.  No need to hold it over them for future good behavior...if you are sufficiently wary about a student where you need a 'probationary period', I would just keep them at brown/red until I deem them deserving of their rank.

On another note, my own teacher and his direct students, such as myself, have collectively awarded dan ranks in the hundreds.  But we have approved only around 30 or so 'instructor' licenses.  Perhaps this type of higher qualification is what people are thinking about partially in their minds when holding back certificates for intangible reasons outside of a belt test?


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> i aint never heard of any of this BS either, and I have been around since Reagan's first term in office
> 
> this is nothing but robbery
> 
> you go to ANY type of school, and you pass, and they wont give you your certification? you can sue them.
> 
> this is no different
> 
> and YES< i consider my students customers, they aint friends and i dont want any disciples, they are customers paying me for a service.



Yes, you can sue them...doesn't mean you will win.  BTW...been in it since Carter's last term.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> that aint what i call it, but then you are a nicer guy than me


Unless Terry were to actually exercise that mentality, it is all academic.  

A school owner can believe that he is the reincarnation of Musashi and that his students are the reincarnation of Musashi's vanquished opponents who are doomed to do eternal penance by learning from Musashi's reincarnation in all their future lives.  

But unless he starts challenging them to mortal combat, he can believe as he wishes.

Regarding the mentalitiy of 'I'm charging for a test and not a cert,' be it in house or organizational, it is in my opinion, a flawed way of thinking.  Obviously, Terry is not the only one who has expressed that.  And it seems that aside from Earl, who has a method to what he is doing and tells you about it before you ever set foot on the mat, nobody who feels that way and is participating in this conversation actually does this, though they seem to feel that it is acceptable.  

Meaning no disrespect to those who think that this is okay, it reminds me of the smug superiority exhibited by college professors who have spent way too many years in acedemia and not enough with people who are neither other professors or students.

As for Earl's method, I can accept it because he is upfront about it.  It would make me pause before signing the dotted line, so to speak, but it would not make me automatically pass over his school; my only goal in attending a school is to learn, not to acquire belts.  I'd simply have to accept that part of receiving one's first dan cert _from him_ is sticking it out for a year after the initial test (or perhaps as part of the test?).  

His policy is not one that I would implement, but because he tells his students upfront, I simply see it as peculiar.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> Yes, you can sue them...doesn't mean you will win.


But if you end up in small claims court and there isn't some weird black belt pre-nup such as what Earl describes, you probably will.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> My 2 cents: if the student has met the requirements for their rank, including any mandatory testing, then give them the certificate if it is part of your offering. No need to hold it over them for future good behavior...if you are sufficiently wary about a student where you need a 'probationary period', I would just keep them at brown/red until I deem them deserving of their rank.


Hard to collect a test fee that way.



dancingalone said:


> On another note, my own teacher and his direct students, such as myself, have collectively awarded dan ranks in the hundreds. But we have approved only around 30 or so 'instructor' licenses. Perhaps this type of higher qualification is what people are thinking about partially in their minds when holding back certificates for intangible reasons outside of a belt test?


Doesn't sound like it.  We're talking about pum certs is some cases.  And those who think this way are quite clear that they are talking about first dan/pum, not about a higher grade.

Daniel


----------



## granfire

puunui said:


> I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which was I would never sue my instructors because they would never do this sort of thing to me. As for receiving what you already paid for, he already got that, which was the training.
> 
> Back in high school, I was taking kung fu from this certain instructor. I learned a lot of things, which lead me to other things, the end result being that I developed a specific methodology for developing concepts and techniques, which I still follow today. I did make it to the 3rd level in the style, but quit soon after taking that test. I never received my certificate, even though some of my classmates did receive theirs. It didn't bother me because I got what I came for, which was the knowledge that the teacher possessed. I still see this teacher around, at the store, or the mall or the gas station, or where ever, every couple of years or so, and when I do, it is always very pleasant and we are reminded of that time so many years ago. Some were very angry at him because they felt that he held back a lot of information, and one of my seniors (who later became my teacher as well when he opened his own school) went so far as to bring the head instructor of our style to Hawaii to have my original teacher forcibly removed from the organization.
> 
> I certainly don't harbor any resentment for not getting my certificate (didn't get my 2nd level certificate either), mainly because I am grateful for what was given to me, which was a methodology which I still carry with me today, something that I could not have developed without the assistance and teachings for the first teacher. He helped me immensely, with or without those certificates.




That scenario is different from the originally stated one.
I suppose the lessons you learned reach much farther than a piece of paper.

However, I find the general mindset a little, no actually a lot disturbing. but in all fairness I have seen similar in other recreational aspects as well.

Normally sane and educated, smart people let themselves get taken advantage of for the sake of 'loyalty' when non is coming back into their direction.

All a certificate is is a piece of pretty paper saying that on such day to fulfilled the requirements to attain a certain rank. 
In itself it has no value past a couple pennies worth of paper and ink.

We fill it with meaning, depending on the stated achievement.

However, since this also has a certain monetary value attached to it in our way of doing things it has become the target for the unsavory.

I have not read all replies, so if I mention a practice of yours (general TKD board population) it is not meant to be personal:

Once the test is done and the check is cleared there is no reason to not hand over the certificate. 
No probationary time, no loyalty.
fee paid, services rendered. 
I do, for the life of me not understand people who agree to tests of loyalty in this setting. Usually the ones expecting loyalty are the ones who sell you out in a new york minute! I fail to see the honor in keeping the certificate. 

The only time I can see it happening (and only barely) is when it has been agreed upon before the pen meets the paper. Or something like 'we test in spring and present certificates at the year end banquet' 

But generally speaking, when the goods are paid for, they ought to be delivered in a timely fashion.


----------



## puunui

granfire said:


> Once the test is done and the check is cleared there is no reason to not hand over the certificate. No probationary time, no loyalty. fee paid, services rendered.




In my kung fu example, there was no test fee. We were never charged for any tests. Perhaps my original instructor still has my certificates, I don't know.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> First and foremost. The one year probation for first dan is not a USTF policy. It is my policy. Something developed by my instructor over 30 years ago, and adopted by me over 20 years ago.  No probationary period or holding of certificates for 2nd Dan.




What is the purpose of the one year probationary period? Is it an attempt to keep student around past 1st Dan? If so, what is the percentage of students quitting soon after completing the probationary period and receiving their 1st Dan certificate? Trying to find out if the probationary period gets people to stay longer after they receive their certificate or not.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> In my kung fu example, there was no test fee. We were never charged for any tests. Perhaps my original instructor still has my certificates, I don't know.


If you are not charging your students for tests then, as I said to Terry, the entire issue becomes moot.  

It is only when test fees, often hundres of dollars worth (sometimes over a grand) are attached to a first dan/pum test that it becomes an issue.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

OK Daniel I am going to try this one more time never said I do not issue certificates. I said I issue my house certs, a uniform and a new belt. By the way the belt and uniform cost me about $70.00 I buy them a very nice Nike, Adidas or one of there choice, not a everyday one for $15.00 but that is another story. You are right the house cert cost maybe .30 cents with ink, that is why I say I do not issue certifcates because it is the KKW or AAU that does the actual issuering of certificates, when i recieve them I pass them out the same day I see them, but I do not test for a certificate for the KKW or AAU. My standerds are higher than theres and so forth but if anybody wants one I am happy to make sure they get them without charging them one extra penny for them.

Last thing I completely see where you are coming from but for some reason you cannot understand what I am saying, my house cert would most likely not be accepted in most places so to me I tested them on material and made sure they are able to preform that material anywhere if they choose too. It is a matter of semantics but it is my opinion that I do not test for a cert. Certficates are issued by either the KKW or AAU and they process and send them to me, plan and simple.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> OK Daniel I am going to try this one more time never said I do not issue certificates. I said I issue my house certs, a uniform and a new belt. By the way the belt and uniform cost me about $70.00 I buy them a very nice Nike, Adidas or one of there choice, not a everyday one for $15.00 but that is another story. You are right the house cert cost maybe .30 cents with ink, that is why I say I do not issue certifcates because it is the KKW or AAU that does the actual issuering of certificates, when i recieve them I pass them out the same day I see them, but I do not test for a certificate for the KKW or AAU. My standerds are higher than theres and so forth but if anybody wants one I am happy to make sure they get them without charging them one extra penny for them.


Just to make sure that I am getting what you are saying, you will furnish a KKW or AAU cert and not charge them anything additional over your $150.00? Your previous post had indicated that they would have to pay extra. It doesn't matter to me; you're certainly not ripping them off in either scenario.



terryl965 said:


> Last thing I completely see where you are coming from but for some reason you cannot understand what I am saying, my house cert would most likely not be accepted in most places so to me I tested them on material and made sure they are able to preform that material anywhere if they choose too.


I certainly do understand what you are saying. And I said what you just said:



terryl965 said:


> It is a matter of semantics


 


terryl965 said:


> but it is my opinion that I do not test for a cert. Certficates are issued by either the KKW or AAU and they process and send them to me, plan and simple.


Again, this is exactly what I said. Understand, that I was not faulting your practice or how you handle certs and tests with your students. If it seems that that is what I was doing, I apologize.

What I disagreed with was your premise that certificates issued by an regulating body (the KKW or the AAU in your case) are at the school's discretion *unless* you are not charging them a fee for said certificate. Your previous post indicated that if they wanted a KKW or AAU cert that they would have to pay extra. Which, as I said, is perfectly fine; 150.00 for a test, house cert, black belt, and a nice dobok plus $70.00 for KKW registration is more than fair.

But *if *they pay the school the registration fee _in addition_ to the testing fee, then that cert is not at the school's discretion at that point.

Regarding in house certificates, they are in house certificates and you can set whatever policy you deem appropriate. As I stated earlier, though, if a school's regular practice is to issue a certificate to the student upon their successfully completing the test, then there is no good reason to withold the certificate.

Daniel


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> What is the purpose of the one year probationary period? Is it an attempt to keep student around past 1st Dan? If so, what is the percentage of students quitting soon after completing the probationary period and receiving their 1st Dan certificate? Trying to find out if the probationary period gets people to stay longer after they receive their certificate or not.


 
Many moons ago when the earth was cooloing and dinosaurs roamed,  Of my Instructors first 14 or so Black Belts, none continued training after about a year. Within a year or two he instituted the one year probationary period. 

I have not kept exact figures but I would estimate about 80% now stay past the one year mark and on to 2nd dan and beyond. Keep in mind that the school is and has been a small park distric program.   We are only taliking about a couple of first dan promotions every year or so.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> Many moons ago when the earth was cooloing and dinosaurs roamed,  Of my Instructors first 14 or so Black Belts, none continued training after about a year. Within a year or two he instituted the one year probationary period.
> 
> I have not kept exact figures but I would estimate about 80% now stay past the one year mark and on to 2nd dan and beyond. Keep in mind that the school is and has been a small park distric program.   We are only taliking about a couple of first dan promotions every year or so.




Seems to be working for you then. Can you attribute the retention to anything else other than the probationary period?


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## terryl965

Yes Daniel I do not charge them extra for a KKW or AAU, but then again they do not get the uniform and a house certificate. They will get either the KKW or AAU and the belt for the fee. If they want everything I will charge them the extra $70.00 for the KKW or the AAU certificate which nobody has ever gotten from me.:asian:


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## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> Seems to be working for you then. Can you attribute the retention to anything else other than the probationary period?


 
Like many things I am sure there are a multitude of factors. 

As students who later also become instructors (but should never cease being a student,) we should try to improve upon how and what our instructors taught us. 

Perhaps in some ways I have succeeded, and in other ways perhaps not.


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## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> Like many things I am sure there are a multitude of factors.
> 
> As students who later also become instructors (but should never cease being a student,) we should try to improve upon how and what our instructors taught us.
> 
> Perhaps in some ways I have succeeded, and in other ways perhaps not.




Oh well, live and learn. Last question, what do you do with the certificates that you don't give out? Do you just hold them forever?


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## dbell

Unless the school is part of an Association, such as ITF, Kukkiwon, etc., the certificate is like a "Menkyo" of old from Japan.  It gives that person the "right" to teach at that level as defined in the certificate.   The Head Instructor, to my thoughts, has the right to hold off issuing it if they so desire to insure their student meets the requirements of their system and is ready to "go teach".  They may have reached the level of training to have the knowledge of that art at that level (1st Dan in this case) but may not be ready to go out and teach (which in my school is 3rd Dan anyway).

So, holding a cert until they have trained longer is OK by me in this regard, provided that is why it is being held.

Now, if the school is part of an Association such as Kukkiwon, etc., then in those that I have seen, the cert should be presented as soon as it is earned and "created" by that Association/Organization, based on their guidelines/processes.

If the person still owes money, I can see holding it until the money is paid current as well, but I ask why training and testing was allowed to continue if the person was in arrears?  It is both bad business practice and bad teaching to allow a person to continue training if they are not being morally and ethically correct in their actions.  (There are always exceptions, such as loss of job, etc., in which I can see the person being allowed to continue, but I mean in general.)


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## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> Oh well, live and learn. Last question, what do you do with the certificates that you don't give out? Do you just hold them forever?


 
Yes. They stay on a shelf at my home along with the ones that are waiting for the year to be up. I have told my senior students that if i ever get hit by a truck, that is where they need to look for certificates.


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## Daniel Sullivan

dbell said:


> Unless the school is part of an Association, such as ITF, Kukkiwon, etc., the certificate is like a "Menkyo" of old from Japan. It gives that person the "right" to teach at that level as defined in the certificate.


The kyu/dan system is really not comparable to the menkyo system and dan grades do not equate to teaching authority, and a first dan has none at all.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist

i cannot express within the rules how much i disagree with policies like Earl's


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## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> i cannot express within the rules how much i disagree with policies like Earl's


Personally, I would never implement such a policy.  

To me, the certificate, be it an in house or an organizational cert, is the student's proof that they tested and passed.  Proof that, should that student move, they will need if the schools in their area should ask for some proof of rank.  Even for a KKW student, whose rank it could be argued, can be looked up, it is needed, as looking it up requires knowing exactly how the instructor registered it.  Not to mention that it just keeps things honest in my opinion.

In Earl's case, you know it going it, so you can decide if it is something that you want to deal with or not.  He has the right to institute the policy, but since the potential student is aware of it before signing up, they have the right to say, "no thank you" or "yes please" prior to committing several years to the school.

Daniel


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## Earl Weiss

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In Earl's case, you know it going it, so you can decide if it is something that you want to deal with or not. He has the right to institute the policy, but since the potential student is aware of it before signing up, they have the right to say, "no thank you" or "yes please" prior to committing several years to the school.
> 
> Daniel


 
Exactly. Not withstanding vigorous disagreement noted here. AFAIAC full disclosure is the key. Nothing hidden by way of fees or requirements. Full disclosure provided in writing to all new students and for that matter any prospective students who ask.  Color belt test fees range from $10.00 to $55.00. BB Starts at $150.00 for first dan because a chunk goes to the national org.  Tuition for adults, 3 classes a week is $50.00 a month. 

Adults training regularly test after about 3.5 years for BB. Kids usualy closer to 5 years. For 3.5 - 5 years they know about the one year probation, so they are not expecting their certificate any sooner.

There are lots of places around who award all sorts of rank easier than I do. How do I know? We see them come in when their school is to pricey and everyone can see the quality of their technique.  recently to show it wasn't a matter of perspective I had an informal pattern competition with some people who transferred in. Even they agreed that their performance was not as good as my students. 

Have  students who I refuse to promote because their technique was not good mainly due to lack of effort, and I hear from others after they leave that they are now at XXX school and have achieved whatever belt. 

So, for those prospective students who don't like the policy,  have no problem with them going to the competition. But, this policy is a small piece of a much larger picture.


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## granfire

I think opinion about a policy can be voiced in a polite manner.

I would that I don't care much for the policy that has you wait a year before you get what's yours, however: If it's there from the beginning that that is what I am signing for on the dotted line, I can deal with it (probably wouldn't though). I think the issue people get mad about is when the rules get changed halfway through "oh, btw, I won't give you your certificate til I feel you showed you kissed my butt enough/hung around longer" etc.

It's a matter of the circumstance.
When it's clear from the start, you know what you are getting into.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Earl Weiss said:


> Exactly. Not withstanding vigorous disagreement noted here. AFAIAC full disclosure is the key. Nothing hidden by way of fees or requirements.


I don't even vigorously disagree.  It simply is not something that I would personally do.  Not being a belt chaser, it would make little difference to me on a personal level.  I simply find it odd.  But it works for you and your students, and that is what is important.

Full discousure is, as you say, the key.

Daniel


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## miguksaram

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't even vigorously disagree.  It simply is not something that I would personally do.  Not being a belt chaser, it would make little difference to me on a personal level.  I simply find it odd.  But it works for you and your students, and that is what is important.
> 
> Full discousure is, as you say, the key.
> 
> Daniel


I believe he was referring to TF with his statement.


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## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> I believe he was referring to TF with his statement.


Of that I am sure.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist

ok, I am gonna apologize in advance, sorry for what i am gonna say next

telling them you are gonna do something ****** doesnt make it any less ******.

it just makes them fools for agreeing to being treated ******


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## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> ok, I am gonna apologize in advance, sorry for what i am gonna say next
> 
> telling them you are gonna do something ****** doesnt make it any less ******.
> 
> it just makes them fools for agreeing to being treated ******



And how is he treating them badly?  How is he cheating them?  What is your reasoning behind doing it differently?  Why is his way bad?  Why not explain in logical not emotional terms on why you feel he is cheating them or why you feel they are fools.  Not just "I've been around for 30 years and that's not right". His instructor and I believe Mst. Weiss has been around longer.  So why is your way better?

I guess I'm just tired of your replies that seem to be based on nothing but "not the way I do it so your way is stupid" type attitude.


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## Twin Fist

being different doesnt make it wrong

being wrong makes it wrong

and this is, IMO wrong, 

now since he tells them in advance, it MIGHT be legal, but it is still, IMO wrong

you go to ANY type of school, nursing, welding, truck driving, whatever, you pass, you get your cert

the cert is your proof that you passed

it isnt held to make sure you come back..

screw that

you pass, you get your cert, period, anything else is, IMO fraud and theft

i have never seen ANYONE do this sort of crap.

now i have seen people do "probationary" black belts, but you still get your cert, and then get a new cert after the probation is up.

it isnt your business if they keep training, that is up to them, and and frankly, you have no business holding thier certs if they passed thier tests.

this is my opinion and i am entitled to it


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## Archtkd

Twin Fist said:


> ok, I am gonna apologize in advance, sorry for what i am gonna say next
> 
> telling them you are gonna do something ****** doesnt make it any less ******.
> 
> it just makes them fools for agreeing to being treated ******


 
Would it make any difference to you if the instructor said instead of the normal three years it takes 4 years to get a BB at my school. Simply, would adding a year to the normal period (if there is such a thing) be better than withholding the certificate?


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## andyjeffries

Twin Fist said:


> you go to ANY type of school, nursing, welding, truck driving, whatever, you pass, you get your cert



While I'm not medically trained, I understood that doctors (for example) had to complete a number of exams and then do n years as a Registrar before being qualified.  How is that different?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_practitioner#United_Kingdom

They pass their tests then have to spend some time proving themselves before they are allowed out on their own in to the big wide world as a doctor.  Sounds fairly similar to Earl's process.

Sure, Earl could give them a bit of paper in the end of their test that says "You passed your first Dan test, congratulations!  Now you serve your one year's residency before being a qualified first Dan".

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to give students their certificate when they pass - if they aren't ready for it they don't pass, if they are likely to quit straight afterwards that's their business - but Earl's up front about it and I don't think he's doing anything morally wrong...


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## Twin Fist

totally, you can require any length of training you see fit, thats your right as the instructor

but once they pass that test, the cert is thier property, not yours.

this practice would not fly in any other type of school that I am aware of. I am in Nursing school now. When i finish it, and pass my test, i get my graduation cert. That doenst give me the right to work, but it is proof that i passed

 I then will have to pass the licensing test, and then i get my license to practice.

but when i graduate school, i get a graduation cert.


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## andyjeffries

Twin Fist said:


> this is my opinion and i am entitled to it



By the way, I absolutely agree with this line!

Just saying that I disagree and posted my reasons why


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## Twin Fist

everyone is entitled to do things thier own way, but everyone else is entitled to think it's crap, or to think it is the best thing since sliced cheese


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## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> Twin Fist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok, I am gonna apologize in advance, sorry for what i am gonna say next
> 
> telling them you are gonna do something ****** doesnt make it any less ******.
> 
> it just makes them fools for agreeing to being treated ******
> 
> 
> 
> And how is he treating them badly? *How is he cheating them?* What is your reasoning behind doing it differently? Why is his way bad? Why not explain in logical not emotional terms on why you feel he is cheating them or why you feel they are fools. Not just "I've been around for 30 years and that's not right". His instructor and I believe Mst. Weiss has been around longer. So why is your way better?
> 
> I guess I'm just tired of your replies that seem to be based on nothing but "not the way I do it so your way is stupid" type attitude.
Click to expand...

Where does he say that Earl is cheating people??  Unless it is in a previous post?    

He equated Earl's policy to treating them (presumably) badly (****** never means anything positive) and to being wrong/bad/other negative descriptor.

For Earl to be cheating people, he would have to take payment for something that he is not providing, which is not the case, but that isn't what T/F is saying.  It all centers around the propriety of a forced waiting period *after* the test is taken. 

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

I think that we can all agree that Earl's policy is not normative in MA schools, and that it certainly will rub some of us the wrong way. 

But it really is a completely separate discussion from that of the OP, which involves school owners simply taking the money and either never ordering the KKW cert, or ordering it and then surprising the student by refusing to furnish it inspite of the student having met all of the requirements that the instructor had established, resulting in legal action against said instructor.

Earl has established a requirement of a one year waiting period. Whether or not it is a good idea or not is unrelated to the OP, as Earl is furnishing the certificate after all of the requirements have been met, one of which happens to be a one year waiting period.

So, in the interest of not seeing yet another thread locked in a three day period, can we all just recognize that Earl's policy has been suitably armchair quarterbacked by the rest of us and move on?

Daniel


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## Twin Fist

fair enough, but the instructor int he op? needs to be sued out of business.

one guy being cheesy makes all of  us look a little cheesy


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## jks9199

Earl Weiss said:


> Exactly. Not withstanding vigorous disagreement noted here. AFAIAC full disclosure is the key. Nothing hidden by way of fees or requirements. Full disclosure provided in writing to all new students and for that matter any prospective students who ask.  Color belt test fees range from $10.00 to $55.00. BB Starts at $150.00 for first dan because a chunk goes to the national org.  Tuition for adults, 3 classes a week is $50.00 a month.
> ...
> 
> So, for those prospective students who don't like the policy,  have no problem with them going to the competition. But, this policy is a small piece of a much larger picture.



As others have said -- I wouldn't do it.  But you tell 'em the rules up front, so I don't have a problem with it.  Do what you want; your students can choose to leave if they don't like it. I like your fees; they're fair and reasonable, to me.


----------



## Twin Fist

jks9199 said:


> As others have said -- I wouldn't do it.  But you tell 'em the rules up front, so I don't have a problem with it.  Do what you want; your students can choose to leave if they don't like it. I like your fees; they're fair and reasonable, to me.



agreed with the latter


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## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> fair enough, but the instructor in the op? needs to be sued out of business.


Indeed!

Daniel


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## RobinTKD

It's only a piece of paper anyway, if you're that hung up on being a black belt, then surely its the belt that matters?

I have no problems with Mr Weiss' way of doing things, the people know when they sign up, they've agreed to it, there is no problem. I understand its just a conflict of opinion, but I can't see it being illegal in anyway.


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## Twin Fist

the actions of the op ARE illegal


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## Kong Soo Do

troubleenuf said:


> Since this has come up several times let me give you some input from experience. We have several instructors in my area/state who "withhold" certificates from students who have passed their tests and have paid for their tests. We also have those who have not applied for certificates for those who have paid for them. When those people come to me I have helped them get their certificates. If their certificate has been applied for and the instructor has been "holding" it that makes it easy. I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee. I think the last time it was $35.
> Several times the people have chosen to take the instructors in question to small claims court. It is inexpensive to do this. In ALL cases they have come out the winner. Its very simple. The judge asks the instructor if the student paid for the test. The instructor says yes (hard to say no when you have a canceled check and they know it), the judge asks if they are Kukkiwon certified (again hard to say no when its all over their website that they are), the judge asks them were their certificate is? They come up with all kinds of stupid things here but in the end the judge gives them two choices... give them the certificate or give them their money back. In the one case that I was a "witness" in the instructor refused to give them the certificate so he chose to give them their test fee back ($550 he charged them) He then tore up the certificate in front of the student and walked out. I patted her on the back and laughed, and got her a duplicate within two weeks for $35. Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.
> Bottom line:* If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it.* Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.


 
Based upon the information you've provided in your OP, and taking into account the portion I've highlighted, I would agree that these instructors are cheating their students.  

It is one thing for an instructor to explain at the time the student is accepted into the school that he/she has certain rules, standards or promotional criteria they enforce.  If the student then agrees to those rules, standards or promotional guidelines then they should know what to expect, and when.  

However, if nothing is explained at the time of acceptance then we have an issue;  

If 'loyalty' is the justification being used in some situations, hasn't the student already demonstrated loyalty by maintaining their attendence, paying their tuition and demonstrating their skill in the test in question?  To withhold that which has been earned (and paid for) on the grounds of loyalty isn't a valid reason.  Withholding an earned certificate then becomes at best a dangled carrot, at worse it is extortion ( *:* to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power).  One should not have to force loyalty by withholding something.

And to be honest, loyalty goes both ways.  And in this second circumstance the instructor(s) in question has been disloyal to his/her students.  It seems in instances such as in the OP, commercialism and/or outright greed have replaced loyalty.

Just my two cents.


----------



## msmitht

Ok, so after re reading this entire thread I have come up with a few conclusions:
1. The instructor in the OP needs to be sued, preferably out of business.
2. This type of thing is not new to the tkd world.
3. None of us agree with how earl weiss keeps his certs for a year, but he is upfront about his witholding so he is not cheating his clients. 
4. The term probationary black belt needs to be changed. How about:
KEEP EM AROUND PAYING TUITION BELT

Sorry folks. I know a lot of you have a deputy/probationary/candidate black belt. In my opinion it is a sad way to keep clients around longer. You tell them "we are a black belt school" and sign them up on the "black belt club". Some of you may have been stupid enough, hopefully not, to put "black belt is your goal" or "we are a black belt school" in big letters on the wall. 
The truth is that many will quit when they get to bb. You can try as hard as you want but if they see black belt as the end all/be all then when they get there they will most likely quit. I have a high retention rate because I make it about the training, not the belt. The belt just tells you where you are in your journey.
My suggestion : do away with all the deputy/probationary/candidate garbage. If you want them to train longer then move them slower through the ranks. GIVE THEM THEIR CERT AS SOON AS YOU GET IT! Add another color belt or stripe if you think they will get unmotivated.
Earl weiss, I don't think your holding the certs for a year is in the true spirit of tkd. I have trained in itf, wtf, mdk and cdk tkd. I met gm. Choi, hong hi (god rest his soul) in person. He presided over a gm test I watched (I was 10) and gave them certs that night. One of my gm's, who promoted charles serrif to 2nd dan a long time ago in co (rocky mtn tkd), always gave out org certs the day of the test or as soon as he got them. 
Now you could argue that they were gms and serrif, now gm, was a proven bb and since it was 2nd dan then it is ok to give the cert right away. I was taught that on the mat we are all equal except for the time in training. No one is special, no one above or below the rules. So if it is good for the goose.....


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

msmitht said:


> 4. The term probationary black belt needs to be changed. How about:
> KEEP EM AROUND PAYING TUITION BELT


Probationary blackbelt is a marketing tool. That is what a dan bo is supposed to be, but by making it a probationary black belt, the test fee can be higher.

We don't use them. We use the dan bo. Students use the time in dan bo to review the curriculum and to clean up any technical issues that they may have. Also, they are asked to assist and their conduct and maturity is looked at more closely in this period. If there are maturation issues big enough to keep the student from testing for ildan, then they can be dealt with at this time. There is no set time for dan bo, though it rarely is longer than six months. Technical issues at this point are minor; the student wouldn't have gotten that far if they had any major technical issue. This time is simply used to for some general clean up of minor loose ends. It is the attitude and maturity that is looked at at this point.

As an instructor, I don't emphasize the black belt aside from letting the students know ahead of time that they will be worn out, battered and bruised by the end of it.  I want my students skills to be good and I want them to develop as people.  Belts are just pieces of cloth.  Rank is just paper and I only use it as a means of structuring the curriculum.  

In my own studio (not a TKD studio), students that I inherit I evaluate based upon their skills and rank them accordingly.  I also will not put a black belt around the waist of a child.  

Of course, aside from the association fee, I don't charge anything for the test.  Geub tests have no association fees and I do not charge them at all for those.  Ildan students get a new dobok and a black belt with their name at one end and the studio name at the other, both in Hangeul, along with a pretty piece of paper.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Probationary blackbelt is a marketing tool. That is what a dan bo is supposed to be, but by making it a probationary black belt, the test fee can be higher.
> 
> We don't use them.  We use the dan bo.  Students use the time in dan bo to review the curriculum and to clean up any technical issues that they may have.  Also, they are asked to assist and their conduct and maturity is looked at more closely in this period.  If there are maturation issues big enough to keep the student from testing for ildan, then they can be dealt with at this time.  There is no set time for dan bo, though it rarely is longer than six months.  Technical issues at this point are minor; the student wouldn't have gotten that far if they had any major technical issue.  This time is simply used to for some general clean up of minor loose ends.  It is the attitude and maturity that is looked at at this point.
> 
> Daniel


I am not familiar with dan-bo ranking.  Is this the same as a 1st guep?  Or is this a rank between 1st guep and 1st dan?  If it is the latter why not just keep them at 1st geup until they are ready for 1st dan?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> I am not familiar with dan-bo ranking. Is this the same as a 1st guep? Or is this a rank between 1st guep and 1st dan? If it is the latter why not just keep them at 1st geup until they are ready for 1st dan?


It is a rank between first geub and first dan.  Cannot speak for other schools, but since I don't charge for belt tests, I find it an effective tool.  The student feels a great sense of accomplishment and it allows them to have that milestone without the added associatin fees for an ildan test.

Currently, I am part of a local association with regards to the arts that I teach (essentially an association put together by a local GM).  Primarilly, it allowsmy students to participate in his schools for events that he hosts that involve food and training seminars seminars that he does.  

The dan bo belt that I use is essentially a pum belt.  Dan bo students wear it with the red on top.  Kids who are promoted to first pum simply flip the belt.  I do not charge for the pum test either.  If the student sticks around until old enough for BB, then I reevaluate them for ildan and collect the registration fee.

Daniel


----------



## andyjeffries

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Probationary blackbelt is a marketing tool. That is what a dan bo is supposed to be, but by making it a probationary black belt, the test fee can be higher. We don't use them. We use the dan bo.



I see no difference between "dan bo" and "probationary black belt" - it's just the language used.  In either case you're adding a probationary step in between 1st Geup and 1st Dan...  Tomatoes, Tomaytoes


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

andyjeffries said:


> I see no difference between "dan bo" and "probationary black belt" - it's just the language used. In either case you're adding a probationary step in between 1st Geup and 1st Dan... Tomatoes, Tomaytoes


Not actually adding anything. Students are in colored belts for roughly four years. I don't string them along past that point: you test unless *you* choose not to. 

Once they test for ildan/black belt (and pass), they are an ildan/black belt. They get their certificate as soon as I get it. There is no probationary period at this point.

Instead of dan bo, I could just keep them in first geub longer, as Miguksaram suggested. I can subdivide the colored belts as much as I choose; I'm not collecting a fee for them. Either way, the time frame remains the same: colored belts for four years and no kids under fifteen get a black belt. Period. 

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not actually adding anything.  Students are in colored belts for roughly four years.  I don't string them along past that point.  Realistically, I can subdivide the colored belts as much as I choose; I'm not collecting a fee for them.  I could just keep them in first geub longer, as Miguksaram suggested, or subdivide the time as I do.  Either way, the time frame remains the same.
> 
> Daniel



Right, but the point I believe Andy is trying to make is that you call it a Dan-bo and someone calls it probationary black belt.  They both are interim belts while you deem them fit for black.  The only difference I see at this point is the fact you do not charge for it, but, then again, you do not charge for any of your belts.


----------



## terryl965

After re-reading this entire thread I have a few choice comments I would like to make.

1st off I see this as what a school owner want to do, it does not matter if it is moralily right, ethnically right or even socially right. The question is is it legally right and the only people that can decide that is a court of LAW. 

2nd most people here have said he should sue to get his money back, well that is solely up to each person. If he feels he should than do it and be done with it.

Now on to the good stuff Instructor school owners and organization have the right to run there business as they see fit. We as consumers have the right to change, stop or take legal action against any business. If most schools promote a person to black belt in two year and charge $100 for classes a month and $50 for belt testing and another say $500 for the black belt test, than that school makes $3300.00 for that BB plus whatever else they spend while there(privates, equipment, hot chocolate :erg. If I take four years to promote someone and I charge the same than I am making an additional $2400 off said person, is that gauging them NO. This is my school and these are my requirement and the average person takes four years to get a BB from me. Maybe my requirement are higher than the other school, maybe I have more S.D. principle evolved than said school. Whatever the reason is it is my school and my rules. People and consumers have chocies to make and if they would take the time to investigate and do a little homework they would understand what they are getting into. 

As far as Master Weiss he educate his people with a booklet that explains everything and what his requirements are for his black belt, people walk into it with the understanding of all his requirements. Whether you or anybody else likes it or not it is his school and he can do what he likes and is morally right in doing so because he has taken the time to educate his potential students.

TKD in general since the seventies, instructor of all sorts have not been providing certification to students, kinda like unethical schools that cannot get you your certificate. Sometime I wish TKD did not have such this bad reputation and could right all the wrong that is done out there in society, but than again we live in a world where crooks and undesirables rule far more than we think.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> Right, but the point I believe Andy is trying to make is that you call it a Dan-bo and someone calls it probationary black belt. They both are interim belts while you deem them fit for black. The only difference I see at this point is the fact you do not charge for it, but, then again, you do not charge for any of your belts.


Do probationary black belts not get a black belt of some kind?  Either you're a black belt or you're not.  

Perhaps I am thinking of the term differently than others do, but I assume that it is similar to the ATA recommended/decided, where you are testing for two separate first dans.

Daniel


----------



## puunui

Archtkd said:


> Would it make any difference to you if the instructor said instead of the normal three years it takes 4 years to get a BB at my school. Simply, would adding a year to the normal period (if there is such a thing) be better than withholding the certificate?



This is a good point, one that I noticed no one addressed and/or is ignoring. In Korea, normal time to 1st Poom/1st Dan is one year, and I am pretty sure that the certificates are issued right away. So why is it ok to stretch out the color belt experience to triple, quadruple or even longer, and then give the certificate right away? Isn't doing that the same thing as waiting three years to get the certificate? Why is that ok? Personally, I don't see any difference between what Earl is doing and the others who say it takes four or five years to get a 1st Degree.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

It may be a year in Korea, but nobody in the US does it that quickly.  I suspect that the time frames to black belt were established back in the sixties and seventies and mirrored that of Japanese arts that were known in the US at the time.  Judo is three to four years, and I suspect that most karate styles are similar.  

In any case, time to ildan in the US averages between two and four years.  Not going to get into whether or not that is good or bad; it simply is what it is.

At my studio, I do not teach taekwondo, but in places where I have trained, none have deviated from two to four years, and prior to this decade, all of the places that I trained were three or four years or somewhere in between.

I suspect that a lot of the time frame in the US is due to the public perception of a black belt being nearly synonomous with a master or a champion fighter in the eyes of the general public, which will generally require more than a year or two.

Let me ask you Glenn, do you feel that one year is sufficient time prior to first dan?  Not fishing for a specific answer nor do I have a right or wrong answer in mind.  Just curious as to your thoughts on the subject.  One other question is, was it always so in Korea?

Daniel


----------



## masterchase

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *miguksaram*
> 
> 
> _Right, but the point I believe Andy is trying to make is that you call it a Dan-bo and someone calls it probationary black belt. They both are interim belts while you deem them fit for black. The only difference I see at this point is the fact you do not charge for it, but, then again, you do not charge for any of your belts._
> 
> Do probationary black belts not get a black belt of some kind? Either you're a black belt or you're not.
> 
> Perhaps I am thinking of the term differently than others do, but I assume that it is similar to the ATA recommended/decided, where you are testing for two separate first dans.
> 
> Daniel


 
We use the recommeded/decided system.    Test for black belt.   Get a plain black belt without any lettering.   After 6 months of training, test again (a much shorter test than the original), get a belt with first and last name embroidered on one end and Blue Wave embroidered on the other end.    We hold the Kukkiwon certificate until the decided testing.   They are actually certified, they just don't have the piece of paper.
I'm sure this comes from our legacy of many years ago when we were an ITF association.      My instructor was associated with an instructor named Myong Kil Kim in the early 70's.    Maybe that's something from him?  Like the quote above about the ATA?  I've seen that Myong Kil Kim was involved with the ATA.


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## Twin Fist

what is this stuff? people either pass or they do not pass.

why do i just KNOW there is money made here somehow.......

friggin TKD has turned into a scam these days.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Let me ask you Glenn, do you feel that one year is sufficient time prior to first dan?



Yes. 1st Dan is a low rank, the lowest on a scale of one through ten. It is certainly not the top of the pyramid for me. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> One other question is, was it always so in Korea?



GM LEE Chong Woo said it took him about one year to receive his 1st Dan at the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan, and I would think the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu was similar. The Moo Duk Kwan had about the same time in grade requirements, one year back in the 1940's. The Chung Do Kwan and Song Moo Kwan took about two years. All the schools were training five days per week, two hours per class. So that is about 250 hours for the Chosun Yunmookwan, YMCA Kwon Bup Bu, and Moo Duk Kwan, and about 500 hours for the Chung Do Kwan and Song Moo Kwan.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It may be a year in Korea, but nobody in the US does it that quickly.  I suspect that the time frames to black belt were established back in the sixties and seventies and mirrored that of Japanese arts that were known in the US at the time.  Judo is three to four years, and I suspect that most karate styles are similar.  In any case, time to ildan in the US averages between two and four years.  Not going to get into whether or not that is good or bad; it simply is what it is.




The reason why so many dojang have lengthened time for 1st Dan is because back in the 1950's and 1960's, many schools were started by former military personnel who came back to the United States after one year with their 1st Dan and opened up schools. But it  became a problem if they promoted students to 1st Dan (which they could not do anyway), so they stretched out the time to 1st Dan. Of course, they trained twenty five hours a day, eight days per week, so they got their rank faster than what they required of their students. 

Saying everyone does it in the US still doesn't change the fact that according to Kukkiwon standards, it's one year to 1st Degree. So why it is ok to stretch out the guep experience to three, four, five or more years, and then give the certificate immediately? Doesn't that still mean that you are delaying the certificate by two, three, four or more years? What is the difference between that and what Earl does? Answer: Nothing because you still end up waiting longer than you would if you followed Kukkiwon one year standard. 

People need to think about that, before they choose to judge Earl for what he does.


----------



## dancingalone

We've discussed the merits or lack there of for such short promotional periods for even a first black belt before.

<shrugs>  I expect that the chodan students  I will produce (haven't promoted anyone to that rank in TKD yet, but I am planning for a 3.5 - 4 year span) shall be substantially better technically than the typical 1 year Korean dan.  That's the way I prefer it, and I bet a lot of people will agree with me.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> Saying everyone does it in the US still doesn't change the fact that according to Kukkiwon standards, it's one year to 1st Degree. So why it is ok to stretch out the guep experience to three, four, five or more years, and then give the certificate immediately? Doesn't that still mean that you are delaying the certificate by two, three, four or more years? What is the difference between that and what Earl does? Answer: Nothing because you still end up waiting longer than you would if you followed Kukkiwon one year standard.
> 
> People need to think about that, before they choose to judge Earl for what he does.



Just for the record, I don't judge Earl's method.  I find it peculiar from a logistical standpoint, but that is as far as I go with it.  His policy would certainly not keep me from training with him.  

Regardless, as has been said previously, you know it going in.  Just as at Twin Fist's school, you know going in that you're looking at four years to black belt.

My time in grade requirements at my own studio are more a result of my having a kendo and kumdo background, where four years is the norm, but again, I am not teaching taekwondo there.

You may know, but if not, I'm sure that Earl can answer this, but in the ITF, what is the average time to ildan?

Thank you,

Daniel


----------



## ralphmcpherson

dancingalone said:


> We've discussed the merits or lack there of for such short promotional periods for even a first black belt before.
> 
> <shrugs>  I expect that the chodan students  I will produce (haven't promoted anyone to that rank in TKD yet, but I am planning for a 3.5 - 4 year span) shall be substantially better technically than the typical 1 year Korean dan.  That's the way I prefer it, and I bet a lot of people will agree with me.


I definetely agree with you. The thought of 1st dan in 1 year is just funny as far as Im concerned. If someone started a club over here and handed out black belts after 12 months they would lose all credibility and no one would want to train there. The credibility of a school is extremely important from both a martial and business point of view and no school giving out black belts in 1 year will ever gain any credibility, not in my area anyway, what they do in korea is another story.


----------



## Archtkd

puunui said:


> The reason why so many dojang have lengthened time for 1st Dan is because back in the 1950's and 1960's, many schools were started by former military personnel who came back to the United States after one year with their 1st Dan and opened up schools. But it became a problem if they promoted students to 1st Dan (which they could not do anyway), so they stretched out the time to 1st Dan. Of course, they trained twenty five hours a day, eight days per week, so they got their rank faster than what they required of their students.


 
Interesting points. On a side rant, it seems to me that many new converts to certain things tend to become extremists. It's why so many of us American martial arts teachers tend to do strange things, in futile efforts to outdo our Asian teachers. We have all heard of 1st Dan tests where some people nearly died and then an instructor -- who has never been on a plane -- declare: "this is how it's done in the Korean hamlets." 

We have all seen guep tests spiced with tons of rubbish that has nothing to do with Taekwondo or practical fighting. Some of the stuff makes me think of my African brothers who are recent converts to the Catholic and Anglican (Episcopalian) Churches but are now the "holy of holies" who claim to bear the cross (sometimes literary) for those Christian sects. I can also think of a number of chain smokers and heavy drinkers, who quit yesterday, and are now preaching about the unreedemable evil of big tobacco and big beer, in fiery tongues.


----------



## msmitht

I met 3 kids from korea who are all 2nd poom. They each had great technique with only 2 1/2 yrs training. No one steps, no self defense, no weapons training. Just poomsae, kibon, kyuk pa and kyoroogi. They said that they trained 2 hrs per day 5 days a week. Took 1 mont off every summer.
They were here for an exchange program. I took them to a local tourney and they destroyed their competition. Everyone thought that they had trained since birth but the truth was that this was the first time that any of them had won a medal in tkd competition. They had competed before, just never won.


----------



## andyjeffries

puunui said:


> All the schools were training five days per week, two hours per class. So that is about 250 hours for the Chosun Yunmookwan, YMCA Kwon Bup Bu, and Moo Duk Kwan



I think this is an interesting factor...

For my club I'm planning on trying to grade the students twice per year training one hour per week.  That may not work out and I may need to lengthen the period, but I think that with a regular grading date it will help focus on improvement rather than treading water for ages.

That means about 250 hours to first dan/poom.

I wonder how much it works out to for other clubs on here?


----------



## andyjeffries

puunui said:


> Saying everyone does it in the US still doesn't change the fact that according to Kukkiwon standards, it's one year to 1st Degree...Nothing because you still end up waiting longer than you would if you followed Kukkiwon one year standard.



You say Kukkiwon standard - is this discussed on the Instructor course or is it documented anywhere?  I thought the Kukkiwon didn't particularly care about Geup grades (except that they are given by Kukkiwon 4th Dans or above)...

Or is it a KTA standard that the Kukkiwon accepts - and because most promotions in the Kukkiwon for 1st Dan/Poom are from the KTA due to the number of practitioners that is the de facto standard?



puunui said:


> People need to think about that, before they choose to judge Earl for what he does.



I'm not judging Earl.  I don't personally want to issue cho dan bo or probationary black belts or hold back certificates.  The reason for me is that my instructors never did this with me so it would feel very unnatural.  I have a lot of respect for Earl so I'm sure he's doing what works for him and that he produces very good students.  I do find it unusual/worthy of discussing though...


----------



## masterchase

> what is this stuff? people either pass or they do not pass.
> 
> why do i just KNOW there is money made here somehow.......
> 
> friggin TKD has turned into a scam these days.


 
No scam here.   The decided test fee is Zero dollars.   And the embroidery on the belt is paid by me.  So it actually costs me for my student for the decided test.


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> This is a good point, one that I noticed no one addressed and/or is ignoring. In Korea, normal time to 1st Poom/1st Dan is one year, and I am pretty sure that the certificates are issued right away. So why is it ok to stretch out the color belt experience to triple, quadruple or even longer, and then give the certificate right away? Isn't doing that the same thing as waiting three years to get the certificate? Why is that ok? Personally, I don't see any difference between what Earl is doing and the others who say it takes four or five years to get a 1st Degree.


 
I can't speak for others. One important difference might be that the time in grade requirement for my students begins to run with the issuance of the first dan cert.  So the fact that they do not get it for a year because of the probation situation does not increase this time frame.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> what is this stuff? people either pass or they do not pass.
> 
> why do i just KNOW there is money made here somehow.......
> 
> friggin TKD has turned into a scam these days.


 
In my case the $ is the extra year tuition at $50.00 / month. (No test, No fee, certificate just presented after a year.) Which is paid directly to the Park District . I get a % from which all expenses including insurance is paid. Since the time in grade requirement runs from the date of the test if they test for second dan then there is no extra $.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You may know, but if not, I'm sure that Earl can answer this, but in the ITF, what is the average time to ildan?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Daniel


 
I could only guesstimate it's in the 3-4 year range. I have seen a trend with some eastern European students who spend a long time at red belt to compete at that level.


----------



## Twin Fist

Earl,
while i think what you do is crappy, at least your honest about it.


----------



## granfire

Earl Weiss said:


> I can't speak for others. One important difference might be that the time in grade requirement for my students begins to run with the issuance of the first dan cert.  So the fact that they do not get it for a year because of the probation situation does not increase this time frame.





Earl Weiss said:


> In my case the $ is the extra year tuition at $50.00 / month. (No test, No fee, certificate just presented after a year.) Which is paid directly to the Park District . I get a % from which all expenses including insurance is paid. Since the time in grade requirement runs from the date of the test if they test for second dan then there is no extra $.




That means for all intend and purposes they are full 1st dan...just without the paper...


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## Earl Weiss

Twin Fist said:


> Earl,
> while i think what you do is crappy, at least your honest about it.


 
Thanks. I think


----------



## Master Dan

ralphmcpherson said:


> I definetely agree with you. The thought of 1st dan in 1 year is just funny as far as Im concerned. If someone started a club over here and handed out black belts after 12 months they would lose all credibility and no one would want to train there. The credibility of a school is extremely important from both a martial and business point of view and no school giving out black belts in 1 year will ever gain any credibility, not in my area anyway, what they do in korea is another story.


 
One year from no experience at all is rediculous in most cases I would agree but people with 4-6 years being given a bb with little or no skills at all especially the ability to defend them selves on some minimal basis is also wrong. I complained to our GM while assisting with a bb promotion test on behalf of a masters students that had traveled in for testing and my green belts were better quality and shocked at what they witnessed. 

Of course they were not taught by the GM but the master was his. His comment to me was well they are just kids its ok?These were 15 16 and 17 year old kids that had been practicing 4-8 years on average. The need to justify things on the basis of money has corupted to much of traditional teaching.

I find it interesting that previous posts of others have noted that 1st Dan is nothing on the scale of 1-10. This ignores the fact that 1st Dan is the foundation that will support all other Grades in the future and I would put it to you that 1st Gup or yellow belt and the absolute commitment and perfection of everything that is needed for that which should take six months is the core foundation that will determin the quality of the MA person the rest of thier life. 

I also find it interesting in a previous post mentioning that any talk or mention of Rank having value is for uneducated peoples meaning that any college graduate would not lower themselves to talking about how much they earn yet then is it not an oximoron to say that 1 has no value compared to 10? implying that well yes higher rank does have value.

Some people can Gup test every 2-3 months because they are gifted and work that hard but others need more time. The sole responsibility in making the decision to advance to 1st Dan and successive ranks levels should lie with the integrety of the Master in charge based on not just technique but also maturity and contribution not a ticking clock and not presure from momy and daddy paying for lessons or other material considerations.

I firmly believe that a quality master from the original root of a MA gives a serious portion of himself to the student and that he has the right and responsibility to determin what is right for the student and has the right to refuse to continue to instruct or advance them if there is a base problem with thier training or conduct. 

Different people arrive at this end destination in different ways and yes it could be said that just telling everyone it takes 4 years as opposed to saying 3 years with one year probation or waiting period but I can see that the core intent is still there to attempt to maintain a base line of quality with out presure from others. 

Some people say how could you determin a good club or master from another? For adult or parent I would examine all that is put into print then sit down with the master and ask frank questions of what is expected and what are the goals. Observe thier students at all rank levels and then decide if that is what you want to be part of. After that you need to submitt and give 100% if you cannot then you should not be training with that person.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Master Dan said:


> One year from no experience at all is rediculous in most cases I would agree but people with 4-6 years being given a bb with little or no skills at all especially the ability to defend them selves on some minimal basis is also wrong. I complained to our GM while assisting with a bb promotion test on behalf of a masters students that had traveled in for testing and my green belts were better quality and shocked at what they witnessed.
> 
> Of course they were not taught by the GM but the master was his. His comment to me was well they are just kids its ok?These were 15 16 and 17 year old kids that had been practicing 4-8 years on average. The need to justify things on the basis of money has corupted to much of traditional teaching.
> 
> I find it interesting that previous posts of others have noted that 1st Dan is nothing on the scale of 1-10. This ignores the fact that 1st Dan is the foundation that will support all other Grades in the future and I would put it to you that 1st Gup or yellow belt and the absolute commitment and perfection of everything that is needed for that which should take six months is the core foundation that will determin the quality of the MA person the rest of thier life.
> 
> I also find it interesting in a previous post mentioning that any talk or mention of Rank having value is for uneducated peoples meaning that any college graduate would not lower themselves to talking about how much they earn yet then is it not an oximoron to say that 1 has no value compared to 10? implying that well yes higher rank does have value.
> 
> Some people can Gup test every 2-3 months because they are gifted and work that hard but others need more time. The sole responsibility in making the decision to advance to 1st Dan and successive ranks levels should lie with the integrety of the Master in charge based on not just technique but also maturity and contribution not a ticking clock and not presure from momy and daddy paying for lessons or other material considerations.
> 
> I firmly believe that a quality master from the original root of a MA gives a serious portion of himself to the student and that he has the right and responsibility to determin what is right for the student and has the right to refuse to continue to instruct or advance them if there is a base problem with thier training or conduct.
> 
> Different people arrive at this end destination in different ways and yes it could be said that just telling everyone it takes 4 years as opposed to saying 3 years with one year probation or waiting period but I can see that the core intent is still there to attempt to maintain a base line of quality with out presure from others.
> 
> Some people say how could you determin a good club or master from another? For adult or parent I would examine all that is put into print then sit down with the master and ask frank questions of what is expected and what are the goals. Observe thier students at all rank levels and then decide if that is what you want to be part of. After that you need to submitt and give 100% if you cannot then you should not be training with that person.


I have to agree with you when you say that 1st dan is the foundation for what is to come. Its all well and good to suggest that 1st dan is the lowest rung on the ladder and that students can just rush through the coloured belts, but in my experience Ive noticed that the clubs who pump out poor quality 1st dans in quick time (and any 1st dan in under 3-4 years wont be very good) usually has poor 2nd dans , 3rd dans etc. It is really up to the GM to determine what they consider a 1st dan to be and then adhere to standards to achieve this. Our GM expects a lot from a 1st dan and so puts infrastructure in place to make sure first dans are good, this cannot be achieved in under 3-4 years minimum in my opinion.


----------



## Master Dan

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have to agree with you when you say that 1st dan is the foundation for what is to come. Its all well and good to suggest that 1st dan is the lowest rung on the ladder and that students can just rush through the coloured belts, but in my experience Ive noticed that the clubs who pump out poor quality 1st dans in quick time (and any 1st dan in under 3-4 years wont be very good) usually has poor 2nd dans , 3rd dans etc. It is really up to the GM to determine what they consider a 1st dan to be and then adhere to standards to achieve this. Our GM expects a lot from a 1st dan and so puts infrastructure in place to make sure first dans are good, this cannot be achieved in under 3-4 years minimum in my opinion.


 
I started with Ernie Reyes Senior and his GM in MooDuk Kwan before changing to Jidokwan and is was the most profound first six months of my life. It took 4 years in their dojang training 6 days at least 24 to 30 hours a week not counting cross training and if you wanted to be the best you cold you trained 8 hours a day the last six months and you had to break one red fire brick knife hand period no good lord decorative patio trim bricks. What we have today is all about the money period. I believe in tradtional TKD for families and the community but each person should have what is best in them brought out and learn the lesson that they truly have no limits at least in their mindset today. The quality break down over the last 40 years has to lay at the feet of those who allowed that to happen while others have stayed true to the core design will continue to flourish even if TKD falls from the Olmypics all though I don't know why it would since fat people swishing brooms and drinking bear gets more network coverage? Youd think TKD woudl be kept in?


----------



## andyjeffries

Master Dan said:


> One year from no experience at all is rediculous in most cases I would agree but people with 4-6 years being given a bb with little or no skills at all especially the ability to defend them selves on some minimal basis is also wrong.



I believe our seniors feel that Taekwondo is for everyone and I agree.  Providing they can do the basics competently then that is what 1st poom/dan is all about.  Most Taekwondoin I've ever met are useless if the fight goes to the ground for example.  Does that mean they shouldn't have a black belt because they can't defend themselves in that scenario?

What about blind/disabled students?  Should they be held back from black belt?



Master Dan said:


> I find it interesting that previous posts of others have noted that 1st Dan is nothing on the scale of 1-10. This ignores the fact that 1st Dan is the foundation that will support all other Grades in the future and I would put it to you that 1st Gup or yellow belt and the absolute commitment and perfection of everything that is needed for that which should take six months is the core foundation that will determin the quality of the MA person the rest of thier life.



So our seniors in Korea who all likely achieved their 1st Dans in this short timescale are of a low quality?  Or maybe they were all "gifted" as you later refer to...



Master Dan said:


> The sole responsibility in making the decision to advance to 1st Dan and successive ranks levels should lie with the integrety of the Master in charge based on not just technique but also maturity and contribution not a ticking clock and not presure from momy and daddy paying for lessons or other material considerations.



And maybe it's not a lack of integrity, ticking clock or pressure - maybe it's just that some masters have a different barometer for what 1st dan means to you.

That said, I don't feel that instructors should just promote students regardless, with no consideration to standards, just that maybe your standard is different to that in everyday Korea.  It doesn't mean they are giving black belts away for free (or charging a fortune, but I mean free as in standards low) just that they consider a black belt to be something different to you.


----------



## Earl Weiss

Master Dan said:


> . The quality break down over the last 40 years has to lay at the feet of those who allowed that to happen while others have stayed true to the core design will continue to flourish even if TKD falls from the Olmypics all though I don't know why it would since fat people swishing brooms and drinking bear gets more network coverage? Youd think TKD woudl be kept in?


 
Only people who play by WTF rules "get it". 

To the rest of the world the hands down no punches to the head sparring format is of no interest. (Which is putting it nicely.)

I think Judo gets little or no air time for similar reasons. The General Public does not understand whats going on in  Judo match and does not find it interesting.


----------



## terryl965

Well for the OP what did you decide and how will you hamdle your stituation?


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> what is this stuff? people either pass or they do not pass.
> 
> why do i just KNOW there is money made here somehow.......
> 
> friggin TKD has turned into a scam these days.


Don't mix up an art with people who abuse it.  Kenpo has its fair share of people who take advantage as well.


----------



## msmitht

Earl Weiss said:


> Only people who play by WTF rules "get it".
> 
> To the rest of the world the hands down no punches to the head sparring format is of no interest. (Which is putting it nicely.)
> 
> I think Judo gets little or no air time for similar reasons. The General Public does not understand whats going on in  Judo match and does not find it interesting.



And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring? At least we go for the ko. Kyroogi means a contest of skill. It takes little skill to play "tag".
Judo gets prime time in other countries. You need to check your facts. The only sports that get prime time coverage in the us involve a ball or young girls tumbling.


----------



## Master Dan

andyjeffries said:


> I believe our seniors feel that Taekwondo is for everyone and I agree. Providing they can do the basics competently then that is what 1st poom/dan is all about. Most Taekwondoin I've ever met are useless if the fight goes to the ground for example. Does that mean they shouldn't have a black belt because they can't defend themselves in that scenario?
> 
> What about blind/disabled students? Should they be held back from black belt?
> 
> 
> 
> So our seniors in Korea who all likely achieved their 1st Dans in this short timescale are of a low quality? Or maybe they were all "gifted" as you later refer to...
> 
> And maybe it's not a lack of integrity, ticking clock or pressure - maybe it's just that some masters have a different barometer for what 1st dan means to you.
> 
> That said, I don't feel that instructors should just promote students regardless, with no consideration to standards, just that maybe your standard is different to that in everyday Korea. It doesn't mean they are giving black belts away for free (or charging a fortune, but I mean free as in standards low) just that they consider a black belt to be something different to you.


 

First any good master can teach any person to defend themselves with what they have and should. Second I wonder what % of kids in Korea are getting 1st Dan in 12 months and how long ago did that become the norm I bet 30 years ago it was not?


----------



## Miles

Earl Weiss said:


> In my case the $ is the extra year tuition at $50.00 / month. (No test, No fee, certificate just presented after a year.) Which is paid directly to the Park District . I get a % from which all expenses including insurance is paid. Since the time in grade requirement runs from the date of the test if they test for second dan then there is no extra $.


 
Earl, when your students test for 2nd dan, is the certificate with-held in the same manner as your 1st dans?  If not, can you explain why not?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Miles said:


> Earl, when your students test for 2nd dan, is the certificate with-held in the same manner as your 1st dans? If not, can you explain why not?


I'm pretty sure that he had said earlier that only the first dan cert is held for a year and that the rest are issued promptly.  This thread is too long for me to go hunting for it though.

Daniel


----------



## puunui

Master Dan said:


> Second I wonder what % of kids in Korea are getting 1st Dan in 12 months and how long ago did that become the norm I bet 30 years ago it was not?




I believe the vast majority of Taekwondoin in Korea are receiving their 1st Poom/Dan in one year. Students are required to train five days per week though. The one year to 1st Dan standard is nothing new. Like I stated earlier, Jidokwan GM LEE Chong Woo said that he took one year to receive his 1st Dan, and the Moo Duk Kwan also had the one year to 1st Dan standard, both back in the 1940's.


----------



## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> Only people who play by WTF rules "get it". To the rest of the world the hands down no punches to the head sparring format is of no interest. (Which is putting it nicely.)




So 70 million Kukki Taekwondo practitioners in almost 200 countries "get it" then. I can live with that.


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## puunui

Master Dan said:


> I find it interesting that previous posts of others have noted that 1st Dan is nothing on the scale of 1-10.



Actually what I said was 1st Dan was the lowest rank on a scale of 1 to 10. 




Master Dan said:


> This ignores the fact that 1st Dan is the foundation that will support all other Grades in the future and I would put it to you that 1st Gup or yellow belt and the absolute commitment and perfection of everything that is needed for that which should take six months is the core foundation that will determin the quality of the MA person the rest of thier life.



I have a student who received his 1st Dan from your "Jidokwan GM". He is a local kid who went to college in the Portland area, worked for a while, then moved back home. Technically, he had a lot of things to work on. His sparring stance was nonexistent, he had no steps, and the basics on pretty much all his kicks were out of whack, especially his roundhouse kick, which he did in a short 45 degree motion. No steps or stance and a short roundhouse, needless to say he was beaten badly during sparring. But he had a very polite positive attitude, understood what martial arts training and discipline and respect was all about, and understood enough of Taekwondo so he wasn't a rank beginner. In other words, he was a typical black belt. We showed him our stance and steps and explained why we did what we did. He soaked it all up like he hadn't eaten in years, and commented that the instructors at his old school never explained anything, at least not the way we explained things. He has some challenges, mostly having to do with unlearning the things that he learned (45 degree roundhouse being one of the biggest challenges) but he is on his way, the adjustment being no different than the one a high school graduate makes when he goes off to college. 





Master Dan said:


> I also find it interesting in a previous post mentioning that any talk or mention of Rank having value is for uneducated peoples meaning that any college graduate would not lower themselves to talking about how much they earn yet then is it not an oximoron to say that 1 has no value compared to 10? implying that well yes higher rank does have value.



I don't know if it would be an "oxymoron", but it might be a contradiction, if in fact that is what was said. But it wasn't. So your conclusion, based on faulty facts, is invalid. 

But if you wanted a contradiction, here's one in which you state on one hand you have a "submit" and yet on the other hand you are complaining about your grandmaster's actions:




Master Dan said:


> Some people say how could you determin a good club or master from another? For adult or parent I would examine all that is put into print then sit down with the master and ask frank questions of what is expected and what are the goals. Observe thier students at all rank levels and then decide if that is what you want to be part of. After that you need to submitt and give 100% if you cannot then you should not be training with that person.



vs.



Master Dan said:


> I complained to our GM while assisting with a bb promotion test on  behalf of a masters students that had traveled in for testing and my  green belts were better quality and shocked at what they witnessed. Of course they were not taught by the GM but the master was his. His  comment to me was well they are just kids its ok?These were 15 16 and 17  year old kids that had been practicing 4-8 years on average. The need  to justify things on the basis of money has corupted to much of  traditional teaching.


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## puunui

Master Dan said:


> I started with Ernie Reyes Senior and his GM in MooDuk Kwan before changing to Jidokwan and is was the most profound first six months of my life. It took 4 years in their dojang training 6 days at least 24 to 30 hours a week not counting cross training and if you wanted to be the best you cold you trained 8 hours a day the last six months and you had to break one red fire brick knife hand period no good lord decorative patio trim bricks.



So four years, six days a week at least 24-30 a week, not counting cross training, which adds up to 4800 to 6000 hours total training for 1st Dan? 




Master Dan said:


> The quality break down over the last 40 years has to lay at the feet of those who allowed that to happen while others have stayed true to the core design will continue to flourish even if TKD falls from the Olmypics all though I don't know why it would since fat people swishing brooms and drinking bear gets more network coverage? Youd think TKD woudl be kept in?



The quality of knowledge from a typical 1st Dan far outweighs the quality of a 1st Dan 40 years ago. The quality of Taekwondo in general is much higher today than it ever was. The pioneers acknowledge this, even if you don't.


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## puunui

andyjeffries said:


> You say Kukkiwon standard - is this discussed on the Instructor course or is it documented anywhere?  I thought the Kukkiwon didn't particularly care about Geup grades (except that they are given by Kukkiwon 4th Dans or above)...
> Or is it a KTA standard that the Kukkiwon accepts - and because most promotions in the Kukkiwon for 1st Dan/Poom are from the KTA due to the number of practitioners that is the de facto standard?



It is just what everyone does in Korea. The curriculum of Taekwondo, and other martial arts including Hapkido, is built around the concept of 1st Dan in one year. Promotions aren't as big a deal in Korea as it is elsewhere, for a variety of reasons. For example, the pioneers who started back in 1946, the first dan holders, received Kukkiwon 9th Dan in 1975, with 29 years total training.


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## Earl Weiss

msmitht said:


> And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring? At least we go for the ko. Kyroogi means a contest of skill. It takes little skill to play "tag".
> Judo gets prime time in other countries. You need to check your facts. The only sports that get prime time coverage in the us involve a ball or young girls tumbling.


 
Not sure what "And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring?" is but for the record, the fact is ITF sparring is continuous.

And, no they don't get stop point sparring either. That is why you don't see it on TV.  Kickboxing which is close to ITF Sparring gets very little air play these days as well.


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## Earl Weiss

msmitht said:


> You need to check your facts. The only sports that get prime time coverage in the us involve a ball or young girls tumbling.


 
OK, so my seeing swimming, track and curling were just figments of my imagination.


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## hungryninja

Perhaps it was in reference to ATA sparring or open karate sparring?



Earl Weiss said:


> Not sure what "And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring?" is but for the record ITF sparring is continuous.


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## Earl Weiss

Miles said:


> Earl, when your students test for 2nd dan, is the certificate with-held in the same manner as your 1st dans? If not, can you explain why not?


 
No, it is not withheld. The purpose of the probation is a way to force people to see beyond the goal of First Dan as opposed to setting this as a journeys end.  If they have not learned that the success is in the journey and not the destination by 2nd Dan, there is no point in repeating the methodology.


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## chrispillertkd

msmitht said:


> And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring? At least we go for the ko. Kyroogi means a contest of skill. It takes little skill to play "tag".
> Judo gets prime time in other countries. You need to check your facts. The only sports that get prime time coverage in the us involve a ball or young girls tumbling.


 
Speaking of checking one's facts , ITF sparring isn't "stop and go." It's continuous sparring. There are a few differences between it and WTF sparring, such as the ITF using a wider range of techniques with which to score. You also tend to see less people falling down after trying to score with a kick in ITF sparring matches than you do in WTF matches (and the one's that do are penalized). 

You forgot to mention the sports involving people running around an oval track get prime time coverage in the U.S. too, regardless of how boring I personally find them 

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> Not sure what "And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring?" is but for the record, the fact is ITF sparring is continuous.




Do you think "they" get ITF continuous sparring? I watched a little of that when someone posted a video of it, and to me, it looked like competition under the WTF rules, with a couple few head punches thrown in. The competitors were even dangling their arms down by their sides as well, if I remember correctly.


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## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> So 70 million Kukki Taekwondo practitioners in almost 200 countries "get it" then. I can live with that.


Thats the problem. Only those that do it "get it". With successful sports even those that dont do it, or have never done it , still "get it". I must say I dont do either wtf or itf tkd, but purely from a spectator perspective, I would rather watch itf sparring any day. No disrespect to wtf sparring, it takes a lot of skill, speed, fitness, timing etc etc, but as a spectator sport it really doesnt have a lot going for it.


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## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> Do you think "they" get ITF continuous sparring? I watched a little of that when someone posted a video of it, and to me, it looked like competition under the WTF rules, with a couple few head punches thrown in. The competitors were even dangling their arms down by their sides as well, if I remember correctly.


 
Can't speak for them, but when I see ITF sparring like this I don't get it.  Had some talented eastern European guys train with me. Kept telling them to get their hands up. Unfortuneately they were taller than my guys and able to get away with it until....... another Eastern european guy with good hands came in.  The result was that they ended up blocking with their face --- a lot!. 

All I could say was "see, this is what I have been trying to tell you. I asked one why the heck they didn't get their hands up? One of their sisters annswered "Becuase they are stupid."


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## miguksaram

hungryninja said:


> Perhaps it was in reference to ATA sparring or open karate sparring?


Even open karate tournaments get some air time at least once a year.  ESPN2 hosts the ISKA/NASKA US Open that is held annually in Florida.


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## puunui

Earl Weiss said:


> All I could say was "see, this is what I have been trying to tell you. I asked one why the heck they didn't get their hands up? One of their sisters annswered "Becuase they are stupid."




Either that or they subconsciously mirror WTF competitors, because perhaps they want to be one. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


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## Radar

troubleenuf said:


> Since this has come up several times let me give you some input from experience. We have several instructors in my area/state who "withhold" certificates from students who have passed their tests and have paid for their tests. We also have those who have not applied for certificates for those who have paid for them. When those people come to me I have helped them get their certificates. If their certificate has been applied for and the instructor has been "holding" it that makes it easy. I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee. I think the last time it was $35.
> Several times the people have chosen to take the instructors in question to small claims court. It is inexpensive to do this. In ALL cases they have come out the winner. Its very simple. The judge asks the instructor if the student paid for the test. The instructor says yes (hard to say no when you have a canceled check and they know it), the judge asks if they are Kukkiwon certified (again hard to say no when its all over their website that they are), the judge asks them were their certificate is? They come up with all kinds of stupid things here but in the end the judge gives them two choices... give them the certificate or give them their money back. In the one case that I was a "witness" in the instructor refused to give them the certificate so he chose to give them their test fee back ($550 he charged them) He then tore up the certificate in front of the student and walked out. I patted her on the back and laughed, and got her a duplicate within two weeks for $35. Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.
> Bottom line: If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it. Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.



I am located in Ontario, Canada and experiecing the same thing. I am no longer a student with the school and it has be approx. 9 months since i had tested. Would you have any advice or guidance you can offer me?


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## troubleenuf

Canada has allot of politics just like the US does.  I have allot of friends up there as we are close to the boarder.  Are you still training?  Tell you what.... PM me and I will get you the name of someone to contact that I know that has a stellar reputation and is not in it for the money.  



Radar said:


> I am located in Ontario, Canada and experiecing the same thing. I am no longer a student with the school and it has be approx. 9 months since i had tested. Would you have any advice or guidance you can offer me?


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## Radar

I have PM you with my email address as well..hopefully you have received?


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