# What are the differences between Ninjutsu families?



## Bester (Jun 23, 2004)

[size=-1]Bujinkan is the widest known 'branch', but there are others.  What are they, how do they differ, and which ones are 'legit' Japanese Ninjutsu and which ones are modern creations?

 I ask that this be kept strictly factual, and non-emotional in response.

 Thank you.
 [/size]


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## Enson (Jun 23, 2004)

you can probably do a search and find that this has all been discussed/argued before... even on threads not pertaining to the subject.


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## Bester (Jun 23, 2004)

I know of 3 Japanese families: Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.  Are there more?

I also know of the "Ninjitsu" group which seems to not be considered Japanese ninjutsu.

I've heard of a "Renegade Ninjutsu" group as well, but couldn't find much info on it either.

Thank you.


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## Enson (Jun 23, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> I know of 3 Japanese families: Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan. Are there more?
> 
> I also know of the "Ninjitsu" group which seems to not be considered Japanese ninjutsu.
> 
> ...


there are or were from what i've read like 53 koga families. if you do a search on the net you can probably find them pretty easy. as far as differences... in my opinion i think people have taken what is practicle to them and taught that. so i think even in the same clans, schools, dojos, etc.  you will probably find some differences.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 23, 2004)

Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan...

All three schools are based on the teachings of Takamatsu Toshitsugu... similar schools in scope, technique, etc... but offer differing training philosophy.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 23, 2004)

TP, something got misfiltered.  Can you PM me that name but with a space between each letter so I can fix the filter?


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## Cruentus (Jun 23, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> there are or were from what i've read like 53 koga families. if you do a search on the net you can probably find them pretty easy. as far as differences... in my opinion i think people have taken what is practicle to them and taught that. so i think even in the same clans, schools, dojos, etc.  you will probably find some differences.



What about ****yourmominkan? lol...kidding, as I saw that TP got filtered, so I figured, why be left out?  :uhyeah: 

I am curious... what is the difference between families and schools? As far as I know, it would seem that all roads lead to Bujinkan (or at least Hatsumi lineage) somehow; Genbukan and Jinenkan were all started by instructors who broke off from Bujinkan. Most independents who are recognized as teaching authentic Ninjitsu can trace their lineage to Bujinkan.

This is my conclusion, all from the results of another thread where I asked the same question.

So...back to 56 families. Huh? How does that fit into the mix? Don Roley....help! 

Yours,

Dr. HaHa Lung


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## Enson (Jun 23, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> What about ****yourmominkan? lol...kidding, as I saw that TP got filtered, so I figured, why be left out? :uhyeah:
> 
> So...back to 56 families. Huh? How does that fit into the mix? Don Roley....help!
> 
> ...


i thought i wrote 53 families... oh wait... no i did write 53! lol! i always considered a "ryu" like a family, but if we did that then there would be a lot more out there.


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## Cruentus (Jun 23, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i thought i wrote 53 families... oh wait... no i did write 53! lol! i always considered a "ryu" like a family, but if we did that then there would be a lot more out there.



O.K.... 53, not 56. But, that still doesn't answer my questions above.

One family...a-a-ahh!

yours,
The Count


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## Enson (Jun 23, 2004)

Bester said:
			
		

> I know of 3 Japanese families: Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan. Are there more?
> 
> I also know of the "Ninjitsu" group which seems to not be considered Japanese ninjutsu.
> 
> ...


also "how does this fit in the mix?"
i just mentioned that there was more than 3 families.(like i mentioned before just what i read on the net from a couple of websites. i wasn't there to count them or anything) although that "renegade ninjutsu" sounds cool! lol!:ultracool


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## Bujingodai (Jun 23, 2004)

There are a heap of other systms other than tha Kans. Whether all or any are legit is up to ones own opinion.

If you are interested in discussing any of these at length with an open mind, go to http://unv.aimoo.com
The board looks a little flashier than it is. It is password protected so you'd have to be accessed.
Anyway, I assume that may pull some of the "indie" chat off this board.


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## Cruentus (Jun 23, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> There are a heap of other systms other than tha Kans. Whether all or any are legit is up to ones own opinion.
> 
> If you are interested in discussing any of these at length with an open mind, go to http://unv.aimoo.com
> The board looks a little flashier than it is. It is password protected so you'd have to be accessed.
> Anyway, I assume that may pull some of the "indie" chat off this board.



O.K....but don't all those Indie schools that are legit trace back to the Kans?


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## Don Roley (Jun 23, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> So...back to 56 families. Huh? How does that fit into the mix? Don Roley....help!
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Dr. HaHa Lung



Not quite 56 families, but I will try to explain.

The art of ninjutsu was made for entering enemy territory and collecting information. In 1600, Tokugawa Ieyasu unified the country under him. The closest rival for his position was killed off in the siege of Osaka in 1615.

From that point until Perry sailed into Tokyo harbor in 1853, there was no enemy territory. There was little need for the art. Being practical, the Japanese modified what they did to suit the times rather than the past. Ninja started doing the duties of regular samurai. In ten generations time, the numbers dwindled not do to any program or need for secrecy. They died out like the western art of the mideaval sword died out- lack of need.

So, it would appear that in the 20th century there were left only two sources of ninjutsu; Fujita Seiko and Toshitsugu Takamatsu. Fujita was pretty secretive and no source in Japan claims to know of any full fledged students of his. The art died with him. Takamatsu taugth Hatsumi, who taught the students who went on to form the Genbukan and the Jinenkan.

Now, if anyone knows of any Japanese ninjutsu art that has ties to Japan, I would love to hear about them. Some people have tried to say that I have a bias against other arts since I am a potential rival. But I do not teach and I spend a lot of my time examining other martial arts in Japan. I go to demonstrations, take seminars, buy books, videos, etc. I like to compare and contrast what I do with what others do. I ahve never been able to do this with ninjutsu.

My only requirement to count an art as legitimate is that they prove a link to Japan for their instruction. I am not talking about claiming to have been taught by Fujita Seiko. If you can prove you trained with him, fine. But just claiming to is not enough. I do not accept an Asian in your family tree as enough proof. My family came from Europe and I never learned western sword. No, I require only that you prove your claim of recieing training froma  source that can be linked to Japan for its training. That is not much, but no one has been able to do that so far.

I have mentioned the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten before. If you are in that book and listed as a living art, I will accept it. If not, until you show some other sort of proof to your claims, I will not. The idea that an art from Japan would not be known in Japan but taught outside of it is just too silly for words. There was evena  great article at Furyu.com that deals with martial arts cults that deals with that line. Go check it out if you can.

So, the ninja died out do to a lack of interest, not secrecy. The only two sources mentioned on the internet that actually existed in Japan in the 20th century were Fujita and Takamatsu. Fujita's art died with him. Takamatsu's tradition is the only art that is still being taught today that is known in Japan and the only excuse I hear as to why some arts are not known in Japan sound 
like bad Hong Kong cinema than anything worthy of discussion.

I swear, we talked abotu this before in a special thread a while back.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 23, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> O.K....but don't all those Indie schools that are legit trace back to the Kans?



Thats the big question that has started a lot of the fighting.  Most of the indie schools that Trace back to the Kan are accepted with a grain of salt by most practitoners as somewhat legitimate arts.

But Indie organizations like Ashida Kim's Black Dragon Ninja's...

The problem, IMO, is this... 

"Ninja" is to most people a farce.  If you study, say, Kempo, and say "I study kempo" at worst you may get a "Whats a Kempo?" or a "Oh yeah, can you kick that guys a$$"

But if you study Ninjutsu, and say that, you get a "Oh sure ya do. Ninja man over here..." because the tv and movie industry, and the "Fraudulent schools" have built up a reputation that destroyed the credibility of our art.  Things like Kim claiming you can tame bees to do your bidding ("Making of a Ninja") and Dux using "Dim Mak" to crush bricks ("The Secret Man") make people skeptical at best about what Ninpo is.  

So the arts that were founded out of the teachings of Takamatsu (Jinnekan, Bujinkan, Genbukan, and even the Quest Centers) work hard for an aura of legitimacy.  But A lot of other "Ninja" schools pop up, and teach "The hollywood stuff" and claim "secret ninja origins" and then that works against the credibility of the art of ninjutsu as a whole.  Are any of them legitimate, even if they are not offshoots of the Takamatsu-den?  Who knows... they dont feel the need to prove that they are real... until they do... all we can do is speculate.  

Most of the speculation is that they are not... which leads to a lot of the fighting on this board.


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## Don Roley (Jun 23, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I swear, we talked about this before in a special thread a while back.



And here is my response in that thread.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=220200#post220200


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## Cruentus (Jun 23, 2004)

SO...56 (or 53) families of Ninja idea would be, basically, crap then.

Just checking....

 :asian:


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## Bujingodai (Jun 23, 2004)

Tulisan,
Techno makes a pretty good point.
Most of us "indies" did part from the Kan for whatever reason, so yes in effect many of the schools can trace alot back to that. Myself I was trained in the Kan, but wouldn't be so bold as to state I teach BBT. I am not a Godan in the Kan. But also I'd state that the skills I learned would be a part of what I do. There are a bunch of schools that don't have ties either. I won't argue their legitamicy. Not my job, not my care. I have met a bunch of them some of them not so good some really good, but all have something to offer.
Unfortunatly "Ninja" a word I don't use to describe our school, attracts a plethora of goofballs. The fantasy factor really brings them in, usually pretty easy to pick out.
I guess in the end it is all what they offer and what the do and do not lie about. For me I don't see a reason to lie about it, as you just become a victim of scrutiny. Don't need the grief.
Anyway thats about it.


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## Cruentus (Jun 23, 2004)

As far as I am concerned, as long as you tell the truth, then it should be fine.

I don't personally care if someone says "Hey, my teacher broke off from so and so, and we do bla-bla ninjitsu." I think it is when people make up fake backgrounds, it reduces the name "ninjitsu" to sillyness, unfortunatily.

Sincerely,

Frank Dux


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## Don Roley (Jun 24, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> SO...56 (or 53) families of Ninja idea would be, basically, crap then.



That number just refers to the original number of Koga families that had an allience with the Rokkaku family  in Omi.

Go to Jigokudojo.com and look in the article section for one by me on the Koga ryu. That should explain more if you are interested in further trivia. It ain7t of much importance now, aside from historical stuff.


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## Enson (Jun 24, 2004)

i think everyone can tell here that i study tew-ryu. when i decided to take up ma i knew it had to be ninjitsu. i looked into hayes, donk and other bujin schools also before i knew better i even looked at kim. i looked at bussey in which i was really impressed. when i chose tew-ryu i decided it was the right school for me. i believe i made a wise choice when i looked at sensei tew as a whole. he's not overweight or to old to walk, but is good at what he does and is a good teacher. i asked about his teachers and found out that he did train with frank dux, but broke off to study with bussey. now i have seen dux's students and i have to say some are really impressive. (i believe one should judge a man by his skill, guess from my music backround) from what i have seen i chose to study under rick tew. i believe that i joined a modern art form that never claims to be traditional. now if that makes me less than because my rebook don't get tighter when i push the basketball on the tongue of my shoe... so be it. but if you believe in your style and feel it is superior... then that works for you. i do believe that there were more "ninja" families out there. (maybe not as public) but i'm sure some imigrated to u.s.a. and taught some students. i do say that dux should at least show a picture of tanaka so that there won't be so much talk. anyway i respect sensei tew for never lying or being shakey about who he is or where he came from. my brother used to study jkd from gary dill and just switched to toshindo. that works for him. now when i post i will only post what i know or what i've read and i will state that before. sure i'm sure many more out there know more than me and have studied longer. so i think you guys should try and help the rest and not be so "racist" against any other style proclaiming ninjutsu/ninjitsu as their art. now that is my opinion and i'm sticking to it
peace


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## Cryozombie (Jun 24, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> now that is my opinion and i'm sticking to it
> peace



Enson... thats fine.  And Tew teaching what he teaches is fine... 

From "our" perspective... well... lets look at it from some other arts perspective...

If Tew (Or Dux, or Saito anyone else for that matter, who cares...) claims that they are teaching "Ed Parker Kempo" but from a different "branch" of ed parker kempo... 

Well, fine... but would you honestly expect them to get respect from the Ed Parker people?  No Clearly not. 

Now, granted Ninjutsu is not so clear cut, but there is a large amount of "historical" evidence to suggest certain things... like for example, Iga/Koga ninjutsu/jitsu is not okinawan in origin, so a school that teaches a "ninjutsu techniques" that appear to be Okinawan Karate but claim to be Koga in origin send up a red flag... 

But beyond the "fraud" stuff... which I really don't care about except where it effects the opinion of the public at large regarding the legitimacy of MY art... just because someone chooses to call their art Ninjutsu/jitsu... doesnt mean that it actually is. 

Does it matter?  Nope.  Not in the least... But will it generate the same kind of respect from the people who percieve their name was stolen?  Nope.


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## Enson (Jun 24, 2004)

i totally agree with you techo. i think if someone chooses to practice an art they should call it that art. not just because they want to use a mask and through joint damaging punches in the air all day long. i do feel that what tew does is very respectful and good. now i won't be here defending my sensei all day long because honestly there is no point. people could talk down hatsumi, hayes, bussey, tew, and anyone else if they want to. thats there write for having internet i guess. so it doesn't benefit anyone to try and defend all day long... that doesn't solve anything. like i mentioned before. if you believe your art is superior... then it works for you. if you don't go find one you think is. i enjoy my art and i never had pump rebook. (i have issues)


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## Cruentus (Jun 24, 2004)

IMHO...people can call whatever they do, whatever they want.

I only have problems when people lie about their backgrounds, or purposely mislead. Lying happends all the time, in all martial arts, unfortunatily.

Yours,

Bill Clinton


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## Cryozombie (Jun 24, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i totally agree with you techo. i think if someone chooses to practice an art they should call it that art. not just because they want to use a mask and through joint damaging punches in the air all day long. i do feel that what tew does is very respectful and good. now i won't be here defending my sensei all day long because honestly there is no point. people could talk down hatsumi, hayes, bussey, tew, and anyone else if they want to. thats there write for having internet i guess. so it doesn't benefit anyone to try and defend all day long... that doesn't solve anything. like i mentioned before. if you believe your art is superior... then it works for you. if you don't go find one you think is. i enjoy my art and i never had pump rebook. (i have issues)



Enson... the only "Superior Art" is the one that gets you home safe against your opponent, know what I am sayin?  Like I said, the reason I don't have a problem with Tew-ryu is that they dont claim to be the supersecret decendants of a lost Bakemono who fell to earth and created a magic ring... so no need to defend him... 

One suggestion however... Tell him to sell his Tshirt style Gi tops without his school logo on em! Id wear one to training if it didnt have his school logo on it... they are fly uniforms.  :boing2:


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## Enson (Jun 24, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Enson... the only "Superior Art" is the one that gets you home safe against your opponent, know what I am sayin? Like I said, the reason I don't have a problem with Tew-ryu is that they dont claim to be the supersecret decendants of a lost Bakemono who fell to earth and created a magic ring... so no need to defend him...
> 
> One suggestion however... Tell him to sell his Tshirt style Gi tops without his school logo on em! Id wear one to training if it didnt have his school logo on it... they are fly uniforms. :boing2:


true that on the one that gets you home!
anyway you can buy his uniforms without the logo. 
www.martialartsupply.com
pro ninja uniform.
peace


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## Cryozombie (Jun 24, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> true that on the one that gets you home!
> anyway you can buy his uniforms without the logo.
> www.martialartsupply.com
> pro ninja uniform.
> peace



Nah... see... I like the short-sleeve Vneck pullover top that is in the "Martial Science" uniform... not the goofy ninja suit...


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## Don Roley (Jun 25, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> so i think you guys should try and help the rest and not be so "racist" against any other style proclaiming ninjutsu/ninjitsu as their art.




"Racist" eh?

I may have to rethink a recent letter I wrote.

Ok, let me state this quite clearly.

Ninjutsu is a Japanese term. There are references to it in Japanese history and you can find people in Japan practicing it.

Certain arts have certain charecteristics. Wing Chung, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, etc, all these arts are not the same and approach the art of combat very differently. If someone tried to say that they were teaching Brazilian Jujtsu but they looked like karate people would have problems. It is not a matter of which is better, but a fact of the charecteristics of the art.

So, I look at an art like Tew-ryu and I see very, very little in common with the what I see being called ninjutsu in Japan. I can look at any Japanese art like Yagyu Shingan ryu (which I have studied) and say that Tew ryu has nothing much in common with even a _Japanese_ art let alone one called ninjutsu.

Has Rick Tew lied? Not that I can tell. Is what he does consistent with what the art known in Japan as ninjutsu is known as? Nope, not even a little.

The problem is what do we talk about when we have so little in common. Rick Tew is a young, unproven martial artist with no experience with the Japanese art. I dare say that I have had more training and more real life experience than he ever will. I would not stop him from teaching an art he created, but if this is a section of the _Japanese_ section of Martialtalk, why should we be listening to a voice that has no tie to that country? Consider the fact that Ashida Kim has the same amount of time in Japan and under a legitimate instructor of a Japanese ninjutsu tradition and you see the problem. Tew has not lied AFAIK, but he has not shown a great amount of expertise or knowlege of the subject matter _as it is taught and known in the country where it takes it name from._ 

I don't want to insult, just point out the problems with contrasting what Tew says is ninjutsu and what every Japanese source says is ninjutsu.


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## Enson (Jun 25, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> "Racist" eh?
> 
> I may have to rethink a recent letter I wrote.
> 
> ...


well you make very good points and i too have thought of such things. but you see tew doesn't say he is historicly accurate. nor does he make claims to teach anything similar to buji. in fact he prefers the style to be called "r.t.m.s." so that there is no cunfusion. in his and my opinion he has taken a concept that he had learned and enhanced it. now i know that to you and many many others that doesn't seem like the case. but you take john pellegrini... he has taken hapkido and enhanced it to his likes. he even titled it "combat hapkido" hapkido as you know is known for its high kicks and difficult forms. does this mean he can no longer use the word hapkido? nope. but he does acknowledge that his style is different from "traditional" hapkido. do we have to change the name of "american football" because we took a concept and tweeked it to our likes? nope. its just what we do. that is why sensei tew calls it american modern ninjutsu. the point i tried to make earlier don (apart from your japanese expertise) is that you should not look down on someone else for what he practices. the proof is in the doing. just be supportive of the new guys and stop stalking the ones that aren't in buji. if they are historicily inaccurate with information they are trying to put out... correct it but not in a condesending way. no one will doubt here that you and dale know your stuff. let us know ours and help where you feel we need it. i will leave you with two quotes for the day:
"an open hand travels faster than a closed fist, so is the same with the mind"
rick tew
"no one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care."
john c. maxwell
peace


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## Enson (Jun 25, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Nah... see... I like the short-sleeve Vneck pullover top that is in the "Martial Science" uniform... not the goofy ninja suit...


the ninja suit comes with the vneck pull over. kinda of expensive though. hee hee! thats why i don't have one yet! lol!
peace


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## Cruentus (Jun 25, 2004)

What is Tew's training background?

Paul


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## Enson (Jun 25, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> What is Tew's training background?
> 
> Paul


you can find it on another post i made.
peace


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## Cruentus (Jun 25, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> you can find it on another post i made.
> peace



Ah...sorry for not paying attention.

He trained with Dux first...then Bussey.

Bussey (although he is not there anymore) was with Bujinkan and broke off.

So...I guess Tew can call what he does ninjitsu, IMHO. I mean...who cares? If he is not lying about his background, (and at least Bussey had a ninjitsu background), then fine. He is not claiming to teach what is offered in the kans, from what I can see. So, it all comes down to what you have to offer, I think. If what he has to offer is not as good as one of the Kans, then people will go to one of the Kans for something more authentic. If he makes his students happy (as long as he isn't lying or running a cult) then good for him.

Just what I think. This is coming from the view of someone who is outside of any "politics" of course.

 :asian:


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## Cryozombie (Jun 25, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> So...I guess Tew can call what he does ninjitsu, IMHO. I




I get Don's post tho... think about it... if you studied under a TKD guy who called his art "American Brazillian Ju Jutsu" and went into a BJJ forum, and started talking about the Chung Mu forms... or the Double spinning back kicks... they would probably ask you what kind of Hash your Instructor was smoking... regardless of how good he was.

I guess maybe I don't understand why you would want to use the name of one art for another art... In the professional and buisness world no one would argue the low ethics of that... If I opened "Disneeland Amusment Parks" with Mikey Mouse as my spokesman or "MacDonalds" Fast Food with the Golden Arc... well... 

It's a moot point anyhow... but I get what Don was saying.


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## Cruentus (Jun 25, 2004)

Yes, I understand what he is saying, but I guess I am a bit more liberal.

To me, I thought "ninjitsu" is a generic for a particular Japanese martial art, regardless of school.

Now, if you can't trace your roots to anything Japanese or Ninjitsu, then yes, it would be unethical to have that name.

However...Bussey's roots are Bujinkan, and Tew learned from Bussey. Therefore, in my liberal mind, it would seem that he could call what he does ninjitsu if he wanted too. 

Now, it is clear that if your discussing technical stuff, with Tew Ryu and Bujinkan it will be an apple/orange discussion. However, because the lineage of at least some of what he does seems to fit into the very broad category of ninjitsu, it seems that it would still be o.k. to call it that? Am I wrong?

Don't mind if I am...just looking to understand.  :asian:


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## Don Roley (Jun 25, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> However...Bussey's roots are Bujinkan, and Tew learned from Bussey. Therefore, in my liberal mind, it would seem that he could call what he does ninjitsu if he wanted too.



The thing is, Bussey only stayed around the Bujinkan long enough to have his piture snapped with Hatsumi and then basically created his own style of ninjutsu based mainly on the Korean art he had such a strong background in. What Tew learned from him was nothing like what is taught in Japan.


Enson menioned, "john pellegrini... he has taken hapkido and enhanced it to his likes." But the fact is Pellegrinin started out in authentic Hapkido and what he does is still very close to the way Hapkido does things. The way they generate power, combat strategies, etc. People like Tew have not.

The way things are done in Japan and called "ninjutsu" and the way I see Tew do his stuff is as different as night and day. Many Bujinkan teachers have not picked up on certain concepts, but if I talked to them about _kuzushi, ichi- no- tachi, nagare, kyojitsu tenkan-ho_  (the real definition and not the commonly accepted mistaken translation), etc, they would be able to see what I was talking about by looking at Hatsumi and paying attention while training with him. Tew does not have these important concepts as part of his art.

If Tew used his R.T.M.S. name, and not the ninjutsu name, no problem. What is R.T.M.S.? Anything Rick Tew wants it to mean. But by posting in a ninjutsu forum as if you were the same as the styles that can be found in Japan, you start to cause confusion. It is not a matter of which is better, but rather a question of what do we have in common to talk about. I noticed that in a post about speed or power there were some posts by newbies in the Bujinkan that did not show a great deal of knowledge, but Enson's post showed that his outlook was quite different. If it was in the general forum, no problem. But if you are talking about the way ninjutsu would deal with a problem, then we really all need to be working off the same sheet of music.


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## Enson (Jun 26, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But if you are talking about the way ninjutsu would deal with a problem, then we really all need to be working off the same sheet of music.


its funny how you mention music roley. are you a muscian? i imagine you aren't because you would know that even though its a different style of saxaphone you still read the same music. same progressions, same note structure. but yet you have mulitple styles of saxaphones. saprano, alto, tener, etc. (even the clarinet is similar) so i practice a different style of ninjutsu. is it going to change the price of beer? no then what should it matter? you have nothing in common with me? then don't respond to what i post. if it is a question for just bujinkan members then state it before you post. like the post about the instructors book. just calm it down and play nice. now i think enough said... you?


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## Cruentus (Jun 26, 2004)

> The thing is, Bussey only stayed around the Bujinkan long enough to have his piture snapped with Hatsumi and then basically created his own style of ninjutsu based mainly on the Korean art he had such a strong background in. What Tew learned from him was nothing like what is taught in Japan.



Ahh. Well, that makes sense then; I stand corrected. I thought Bussey had more of a background. But if it is as you say (and I have no reason to not believe you), then I agree. Tew has a legitimacy problem, and should probably call his art something other then Ninjitsu.

IMHO.


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## Cruentus (Jun 26, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> its funny how you mention music roley. are you a muscian? i imagine you aren't because you would know that even though its a different style of saxaphone you still read the same music. same progressions, same note structure. but yet you have mulitple styles of saxaphones. saprano, alto, tener, etc. (even the clarinet is similar) so i practice a different style of ninjutsu. is it going to change the price of beer? no then what should it matter? you have nothing in common with me? then don't respond to what i post. if it is a question for just bujinkan members then state it before you post. like the post about the instructors book. just calm it down and play nice. now i think enough said... you?



Well...all fighting styles have similarities across the board. We all have a head, torso, 2 arms and 2 legs. We all move, biologically the same. If someone had 4 legs or 3 arms...well, then maybe we would find more diversity in movement. So...conceptually, yes, it is all the same. 

But, stylistically, the semantics are different. I'll apply this to myself. If I am in a Modern Arnis forum talking about 6-count drill, and someone from San Miguel eskrima starts explaining his interpretation of things when his count drills don't even resemble modern arnis 6-count, then we have a semantics problem. This would be like me giving you my input on your Latin, when I only speak Spanish. 

So...I can see what Don is saying. This does not mean that you shouldn't have an opinion, but it does mean that you'd better know that what you are doing is not "authentic" ninjitsu, so your semantics may be entirely different.

O.K....I'll shut up now!

 :asian:


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## Bujingodai (Jun 26, 2004)

I take issue then with the comment about Bussey only sticking around to get his pic.

OK, then the error is on Hatsumi's side and not Bussey. Bussey was graded to a Yondan, if he was only there but a short time it was irresponsible to grade him as such. I would state that one should have a pretty good grip of what the art is about at Yondan, again this could be a QA issue. I have seen Bussey on tapes only...he doesn't look bad, moves better than many of the exisiting and liscenced Bujinkan instructors today.

As for Tew, he is pretty flashy and not much of what I have seen footage wise is very "ninjutsuish" However if I was to make a promo VCD I'd be putting the more exciting stuff on it too. To his credit I'd love to move that well overall, and it looks like an interesting program if I had the bucks. Many Many bucks so it seems.

Dux, well. I am an indie, I have a mandate in the org I belong to, to contact and meet etc as many schools as I can to form a legit physical opinion. I have contacted him, his people and such..Have never had a response. I just wanted to see for myself. So I have no opinion. He shut me out :miffer: I mean even Ashida responded to me, LOL. Mind you that was one meeting I bowed out of. But it would have been worth it to meet the man.


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## Shogun (Jun 26, 2004)

Even if it doesnt seem very "ninja", I got o give it to Tew that he is fun "tew" watch. Kinda like Taido.

good stuff. to watch....ah you get it.


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## Don Roley (Jun 26, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> OK, then the error is on Hatsumi's side and not Bussey. Bussey was graded to a Yondan, if he was only there but a short time it was irresponsible to grade him as such.



It really was not a yondan. The story is bit complicated, but Bussey was being set up to have his ego bashed into the ground, and fled Japan instead. I do not think he has a certificate, just the knowledge that he had been ordered to take the godan test before he ran.

This story comes to me second had through a Japanese with a  good reputation at one of the Daikomysai parties. Due to the amount of alchohol involved, there may be some errors, but it seems to fit the facts.

Oh, and what Tulisan said about the "semantics", I wish I had said it that simply. When we talk about what ninjutsu is in terms of how to approach combat, generate power, etc, then Tew ryu has about as much in common with the stuff in Japan as Wing Chun does. I am not saying it is better or worse, just different enough to cause a heck of a lot of confusion by using the same terms.


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## r erman (Jun 26, 2004)

> It really was not a yondan



Don,

Has Bussey received enough flack yet?  The guy has been disassociated from the booj since 1987.  Everyone knows what he does/did does not have the same flow and principles found in classical taijutsu--I think he knows it too and just found a ballisitic mode of movement that worked for him.

I've read interviews with Nagato where Bussey's rank was mentioned and he(Nagato) did not correct his yondan as a misconception--and everyone has heard of how tough Nagato's dojo was back in those days.  I respect that more than what his dan rank was...

Dave,

As far as moving better than booj instructor's today, he is most likely a better fighter than some, but he doesn't move better in the sense of booj movement.  There are so many principles involved with high level jujutsu/taijutsu that I've never seen in Bussey's stuff.  But the man's an animal, no doubt.

Anyway, not trying to argue with anyone, but I wonder why so many people still obsess about Bussey and spread what is essentially second-hand information when the guy hasn't been officially involved in 'ninjutsu' since the late 80's.


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## Don Roley (Jun 27, 2004)

r erman said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> As far as moving better than booj instructor's today, he is most likely a better fighter than some, but he doesn't move better in the sense of booj movement.  There are so many principles involved with high level jujutsu/taijutsu that I've never seen in Bussey's stuff.  But the man's an animal, no doubt.



Let us leave it at that. I do not want to talk about whether Bussey is good or not, or how much experience he may or may not have had. The important thing is that the art that he came up with and put his name to has very, very little in common with the art known in Japan as ninjutsu. They both use punches, kicks, etc. But the end result is about as similar as tai chi and tae kwon do.

And if you want to talk about tai chi, you don't want to hear the comments of a tae kwon do student who suddenly calls his art "modern tai chi" because he just does not have anything in common. This is one of the problems we see when trying to deal with the issues of this forum.


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## r erman (Jun 27, 2004)

> And if you want to talk about tai chi, you don't want to hear the comments of a tae kwon do student who suddenly calls his art "modern tai chi" because he just does not have anything in common. This is one of the problems we see when trying to deal with the issues of this forum.


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## Bujingodai (Jun 27, 2004)

I agree, I have little to do or say about Bussey. Just an opinion.
But only an opinion on second hand knowledge and video footage.


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## sojobow (Jun 30, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> "Racist" eh?
> Ninjutsu is a Japanese term. There are references to it in Japanese history and you can find people in Japan practicing it
> 
> I don't want to insult, just point out the problems with contrasting what Tew says is ninjutsu and what every Japanese source says is ninjutsu.



Sensei Tew did not say what Nin Jutsu is.  He speak only of Nin Jitsu.  Two differenct animals.  However;

Pardon me as I was just flying by.  The Tengu will again vanish after this post until something of importance to all is mentioned or discussed.  Most likely will now respond to replys to this post.  Just a FYI.

*Lord help us, but I "almost" totally agree with Don Roley.*

Mr. Roley says: *"Ninjutsu is a Japanese term. There are references to it in Japanese history and you can find people in Japan practicing it."*

Sojobow says: Half truth, but more correct to say that "you can find people in Japan practicing what THEY THINK  IT IS." (will explain more below so keep reading now).  But the basic phrase is correct in that Ninjutsu is a Japanese  term but borrowed from the Chinese.

Mr. Roley says: *"So, I look at an art like Tew-ryu and I see very, very little in common with the what I see being called ninjutsu in Japan. I can look at any Japanese art like Yagyu Shingan ryu (which I have studied) and say that Tew ryu has nothing much in common with even a Japanese art let alone one called ninjutsu."*

Sojobow says: Mr. Roley is absolutely correct.  Tew Ryu has nothing much in common with this thing called "Ninjutsu."  From what I can see, Sensei Tew teaches his form of American N i n j *i* t s u thus, Mr. Roley is correct again.

Mr. Roley says: *"Has Rick Tew lied? Not that I can tell. Is what he does consistent with what the art known in Japan as ninjutsu is known as? Nope, not even a little."*

Sojobow says: Mr. Roley is again, absolutely correct.  What Sensei Tew teaches is unknown in Japan.

Mr. Roley says: *"The problem is what do we talk about when we have so little in common. Rick Tew is a young, unproven martial artist with no experience with the Japanese art. "*

Sojobow says: Mr. Roley may be correct again but I would venture to guess that Sensei Tew might know a lot more than Mr. Roley gives him credit for.  He, Sensei Tew, is young and unproven *in Japan* but I'd really hate to see someone try him.  Life is too short.   (Interesting term: "Kan."  The actual term taken (borrowed) from the Chinese in the  development of the Japanese term: "Nin."  But that (the blade over the heart and Kanji of Kan, Cho, Sankai is a subject for another flyby)

Mr. Roley says: *"I would not stop him from teaching an art he created, but if this is a section of the Japanese section of Martialtalk, why should we be listening to a voice that has no tie to that country? *

Sojobow says: *AND HEREIN/THEREIN LIES THE PROBLEM.*

Mr. Roley is absolutely correct again.  The owners of this Forum (as well as others such as BudoSeek) either do not  know and understand that there are others in the world of martial arts that study something called "Ninjitsu," or these Forum owners do not consider any existance of anything not "Kan," or, these owners lump all practitioner's of the Stealer-ins as a Japanese Artform.   I would think that, at least, these owners would have a section set aside for "Ninjitsu" under another group heading not Japanese.  The current systems on these Forums breed martial arts bigotry and other prejudices as well as limit dialogue.  (REFERENCE TO CERTAIN SCIENCES AND NOT A REFERENCE TO SOME CONTINENT.)

(Why is it that the Kogas know what and how the Kans/X-Kans do what they do, but not the other way around?  Why listen????  Why not!!!!!)

Again, Mr. Roley is absolutely correct.  Only Kans/X-Kans are welcomed here and other Forums like this one.  Enson will not be welcomed here.  Sojobow was not and will never be welcome here, those not born of the Bujinkan will not be welcome here.  All Bujinkans having an outstanding balance due, will not be welcomed here so you guys had better keep you cards updated and dues paid.

Mr. Roley says:*"....the subject matter as it is taught and known in the country where it takes it name from. "*

Sojobow says: As promised above by my statement: ""you can find people in Japan practicing what THEY THINK  IT IS."", I find it perplexing that the Kans/X-Kans seem to not know the differences in being taught the Art of the Iga  and of the Koga versus the Art of the Samurai.  The art of the Iga and the Koga DID NOT INCLUDE THE "16 ARTS OF THE SAMURAI." The Bansensuki of the Koga is different compared to the Bansensuki of the Iga therefore, the two systems of Iga and Koga are different.  One would have to be able to read Kanbun as the language of writtings of Koga and Iga is not "Japanese" but are actually in a bastardized Chinese language.  Koga difinately had no "16 Arts of the Samurai." 

I could be wrong.  But I don't seem to recall that The Bansensuki includes references to most of the "16 Samurai Arts." I do see the references to the "16 Arts of Ninjutsu" within the Kan, however, I have never noted any Kan student discussing the arts of explosives, poisons, Kuji-In, Astrology, Espionage, Psyops, Black Arts, Black-Ops, Religeons, Philosophy, Sex, etc. (Note: Do you also practice the Religeons of Buddhism and Shinto?  If not, what Ninjutsu family do you proclaim?) This is also the reason there is no living individual having attained the original rank of Shihan.  The Kan/X-Kan of today do not take the same test for Rank above 4th Dan as those under the Sokeships prior to Hatsumi Sensei thus, the Ninjutsu as taught in Japan today is not what was passed to Hatsumi.  But, to me, it doesn't matter.  All of you above 3rd Dan are ok with me.  Just wanted to let you know that some of the Koga Ryu-ha know.  We also know why you do not welcome those not of your Ryu-ha.  Truth will somehow devulge itself if free-speach is left unrestricted.

Item Last (no reply necessary): I have seen the earliest Sword of the Samurai dating long before the Heian Period.  I have also seen the earliest known sword of the practitioners of Koga and Iga.  Both were black and both have straight blades.  The "Blade Over the Heart" depicts a straight blade.

Have the Moderator delete this post before too many open minded warriors think on its contents.

Smoke!!!!!!!


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## Don Roley (Jun 30, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Sensei Tew did not say what Nin Jutsu is.  He speak only of Nin Jitsu.  Two differenct animals.



Does anyone take this type of stuff with any sort of seriousness? If no one does, I am not going to bother wasting time trying to correct all the mistakes and such in it and get back to my drinking. Sojobow can just disapear again and we can try to have serious conversations. 

But Sojobow makes an interesting observation that if the title of this forum is "ninjutsu" then maybe "ninjitsu" folks are posting in the wrong forum.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 30, 2004)

> (as well as others such as BudoSeek)




Ehhh...not so much.  But I refuse to entertain your little middle-school-brat fantasies.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 30, 2004)

Brief comment, more later in a different thread.

===



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> Mr. Roley is absolutely correct again. The owners of this Forum (as well as others such as BudoSeek) either do not know and understand that there are others in the world of martial arts that study something called "Ninjitsu," or these Forum owners do not consider any existance of anything not "Kan," or, these owners lump all practitioner's of the Stealer-ins as a Japanese Artform. I would think that, at least, these owners would have a section set aside for "Ninjitsu" under another group heading not Japanese. The current systems on these Forums breed martial arts bigotry and other prejudices as well as limit dialogue. (REFERENCE TO CERTAIN SCIENCES AND NOT A REFERENCE TO SOME CONTINENT.)
> 
> (Why is it that the Kogas know what and how the Kans/X-Kans do what they do, but not the other way around? Why listen???? Why not!!!!!)
> 
> Again, Mr. Roley is absolutely correct. Only Kans/X-Kans are welcomed here and other Forums like this one. Enson will not be welcomed here. Sojobow was not and will never be welcome here, those not born of the Bujinkan will not be welcome here. All Bujinkans having an outstanding balance due, will not be welcomed here so you guys had better keep you cards updated and dues paid.





			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> But Sojobow makes an interesting observation that if the title of this forum is "ninjutsu" then maybe "ninjitsu" folks are posting in the wrong forum.



This is being worked on. I have been discussing this issue with several individuals, and are working on a clarification.  When I named this forum, my own understanding of this was quite lacking (Still is, but I know a bit more now, heh).  I am working to develop a FAQ for this area to specifically address many of the concerns that have been recently brought to our and my attention.  I will be seeking the help of our expert members to help fill that faq.  More info shortly.

:asian:


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## shiro (Aug 6, 2004)

It is my understanding the term NinJutsu and NinJitsu is a on going problem and.
Jutsu(means art,waza) Jitsu(means fruit). It was a traslation problem a long time ago and it just has never been fixed. Public opinion is hard to change.


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 6, 2004)

"Ninjitsu" is just an alternative spelling to "ninjutsu" that some people/organizations use to make their art different from ninjutsu because they have no legitimate ninjustu background and think by spelling their art "ninjitsu" they wont have any problems explaining the difference between the two...but we who know better obviously know that the "ninjitsu" spelling is pretty much crap.Ninjutsu is made of a series of english letters to represent the japanese characters for ninjutsu,it is only a translation but for those who are more literate than others know that it is correctly spelt "ninjutsu" as it is closer to the correct pronounciation.

Don feel free to correct me so far i will gladly stand corrected.

Now on the topic of this being a "Japanese forum" and a specific Ninjutsu forum (which it most certainly is) and the comments about anyone outside of the Bujinkan,Genbukan or Jinenkan in not really welcome to post here?..hmmm ok here i go...

I study/practice Ninjukai Taijutsu and i understand that it is not recognised as a legitimate ninja art by many if any outside the organization itself and, i respect that fully.However i am 17 yrs old,I studied karate before ninjukai and have an enthusiastic interest in japanese arts and history.I POST HERE AND READ HERE TO LEARN. I have read many books on ninjutsu and japanese history and have a growing knowledge and have learnt alot also through posting and recieving comments in this forum.

I have ambitions to join the Bujinkan in Brisbane when i transfer over there next year (i'm joining the army) So i post here out of my great interest of ninjutsu to build on my knowledge and learn more about the art not only for liesure and personal interest reasons but also to improve my background knowledge of the art i will begin to study early next year.

I understand exactly what you're saying Don and i respect all of it and you are someone with great knowledge whom we can learn a great deal from,that is what i am here for to LEARN and understand from those who Know and where i can i also offer advice out of the knowledge i have gained over the years.

I have gained alot from my time here on martial talk and am sure i will learn much more in the future.The knowledge i have now i apply to my taijutsu and what i am yet to gain i will also apply to my taijutsu and i look forward to my years to come in the Bujinkan.I am one of those people who are "big on history" and feel it is an important part to understanding and appreciating your art and understanding the roots and traditions will help you in your development and future training.

"The heart of taijutsu is important and only through training will one polish that heart (like a gem) and understand true taijutsu." -Toshitsugu Takamatsu

much respect
-andrew


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## shiro (Aug 6, 2004)

Yes could you give me more info on ninjukai?
I have  never heared of it.
The people in the Bujinkan state that those who won the wars wrote history(true)
Then there must be a possiblity of some small pockets of ninjutsu not conected to the Bujinkan. I just saying never say never. So check them out ,That is why I am asking.
Thanks


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## Enson (Aug 6, 2004)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> I study/practice Ninjukai Taijutsu and i understand that it is not recognised as a legitimate ninja art by many if any outside the organization itself and, i respect that fully...
> 
> I have ambitions to join the Bujinkan in Brisbane when i transfer over there next year (i'm joining the army) ...
> -andrew


why do you feel the need to be recognized by a bunch of people you don't know? you are bit younger than me so i will tell you this: when i was 17 yrs. (not that long ago) i too felt the need to fit in to something bigger and what i felt more important. i'm not telling you to not join the bujinkan but you seemed like you loved your ninjukai taijutsu training. the questions to you is... do you believe in your art/style? do you think it is a well rounded style? do you believe it can be effective in self defense? do you respect your instructor above all others? (meaning... do you believe what he says even though some tell you different?) do you believe that there is still much more to learn in your style/art?
remember that once you train bujinkan you are not supposed to cross train. so in reality you shouldn't go back to ninjukai. but, if you love you art/style... then stick with it. perfect it. show the world that no matter what they say about your art's legitimacy (spelling) that it works and is effective. don't feel the need to change to keep up with the "jones." remember that these people on here like, don, dale, ralph, shiro, gmunoz, etc. have built a relationship with their style over time. you are too young to get married but when you do you will learn that no matter what anyone says about your spouse... she is yours forever. your love will blind you to any negatives she might have, and in your eyes she will be the best wife in the universe. the same with your style. if you love your style... stick with it and don't just change to fit in. these are just my thoughts.
peace


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## DuckofDeath (Aug 6, 2004)

shiro said:
			
		

> Jitsu(means fruit).



By their fruits ye shall know them.


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 7, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> why do you feel the need to be recognized by a bunch of people you don't know? you are bit younger than me so i will tell you this: when i was 17 yrs. (not that long ago) i too felt the need to fit in to something bigger and what i felt more important. i'm not telling you to not join the bujinkan but you seemed like you loved your ninjukai taijutsu training. the questions to you is... do you believe in your art/style? do you think it is a well rounded style? do you believe it can be effective in self defense? do you respect your instructor above all others? (meaning... do you believe what he says even though some tell you different?) do you believe that there is still much more to learn in your style/art?
> remember that once you train bujinkan you are not supposed to cross train. so in reality you shouldn't go back to ninjukai. but, if you love you art/style... then stick with it. perfect it. show the world that no matter what they say about your art's legitimacy (spelling) that it works and is effective. don't feel the need to change to keep up with the "jones." remember that these people on here like, don, dale, ralph, shiro, gmunoz, etc. have built a relationship with their style over time. you are too young to get married but when you do you will learn that no matter what anyone says about your spouse... she is yours forever. your love will blind you to any negatives she might have, and in your eyes she will be the best wife in the universe. the same with your style. if you love your style... stick with it and don't just change to fit in. these are just my thoughts.
> peace


No its not that i am joining the bujinkan to be "recognised".I will be over in the eastern states next year and Ninjukai only exists in western australia,Over in places like brisbane where i will be there are quite a few Bujinkan Dojos.I love ninjukai its a great art and very effective,and i have great respect for everyone there.The marriage thing was a good example Enson but its a little different,its just simply i'm changing locations,and i need to make a few sacrifices and change my style.Thanks for the post though.

and to SHIRO.When dealing with history and the Ninja its almost impossible to understand without approaching it with an open mind.The Togakure-ryu which Toshitsugu Takamatsu passed down to Masaaki Hatsumi who exposed it to SKH is understood socially and historically as being the Ninjutsu which was born and practiced in the IGA Region.The Koga region however is said by a few to have lasted through the life and days of Fujita Seiko who tragically died and never passed on his knowledge.But This is not incredibly well known and Fujito Seiko and his ninjutsu is a very controversial and debated topic.

So basically it all boils down to the Togakure-Ryu being the only legitimate style of ninjutsu that is backed with living and historical evidence and is recognised by Japan as being a traditional Ninja art.

Now even though the Koga and Iga regions were said to both operate together at times and the styles were very similiar i think its a little foolish to state that the Ninjutsu taught today by the Bujinkan is and was the only Traditional martial art of the ninja.Unfortunately though there is no other historic evidence that has any mention of the many of the "ninja" styles practiced today.

But personally i'm sure there is others,maybe only 1 or 2,and i also think that many styles and variations of ninjutsu died with its practitioners long ago.But i will never be one to say that Bujinkan Ninjutsu was the only tradition that survived,i think that is quite untrue but thats just my personal belief.

So we continue to condemn and brand other arts as being "frauds".And yes there are some frauds out there who make very ridiculous claims but i'm not gonne be one to point the finger.Because history has been very interwined with many stories of fact and legend,and i am still unsure of what to believe today.But i obviously believe in the Bujinkan,Genbukan and Jinenkan because they have the evidence and lineage to prove that they are legit,but personally i also believe in Ninjukai because i have practiced it,been told about it,and have seen it in action.That is my belief,and dont wish to convince anyone else....

Keep an open mind...but not too open that you are blinded and sucked in by fairytales and false claims.

much respect
-andrew


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## shiro (Aug 7, 2004)

Where and Who are You going to try to study with. Mr. Hoban is on the Eastern side.
Good Luck


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 8, 2004)

Yeh theres Jack Hoban,Duncan Mitchell,Geoff Smith and Gillian Booth.There is also the Australian Ninjutsu Academy headed by Michael Tattoli.


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## Don Roley (Aug 9, 2004)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> So we continue to condemn and brand other arts as being "frauds".And yes there are some frauds out there who make very ridiculous claims but i'm not gonne be one to point the finger.Because history has been very interwined with many stories of fact and legend,and i am still unsure of what to believe today.



History and Japanese claims can be very confusing- especially if you do not speak the language and can't tell the difference between the Edo period and the Nara period.

But here are two things that you should always look for.

1- sources in Japan that know about the art and a link to Japan by the people making the claims. It just does not happen that an art can be taught outside the country of its origin and not be known at all in it.

2- the highest ranking person or the one who introduced the art is able to show complete proof that he actually had training from a real teacher. And all claims he makes about his own experiences check out.

Both these should be provable independently by people outside the orginization. No secrets that can be discussed on line but not shown to anyone outside the ryu, no conspiracy theories, etc.

If we accept these simple guidelines we eliminate Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Konigun, Saito ryu, Mikeba-ryu, etc. No need to understand 14th century politics or anythign that complicated. Simply ask if the highest person can prove his claims of training and is there any source in Japan that knows about them. If not, they are not worth talking about.

And if anyone knows of another school outside of the Takamatsu den in Japan, please let me know. I have taken a lot of time and effort to learn about other arts as I can. It would be nice to learn about another ninjutsu style I can compare the Togakure ryu with. But they don't seem to exist in Japan- only overseas. Imagine that!
 :uhyeah:


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