# Aikido and X-training: No Faith?



## AikidoCal (Jul 8, 2005)

I was having a discussion about Aikido with another person the other day, and that came up. I am not sure if cross training in another art while an active Aikidoka demonstrates a lack of faith in the art. 

Some people cross train because the want a more rounded martial arts experience. Some people X-train because they feel Aikido doesn't address other issues say, ground work. Other's I have read and spoke with feel the philosophy of non-violence as dicated in Aikido via technique is really useless into day's world. If you throw the attacker several times it my not ever dawn on him that he can't win. In fact, it may make him work harder at it. The longer the encounter the greater the possibilities of the tables turning on the Aikidoka. Therefore, you have to have a kill or be killed attitude. 


Of course in the Aikido community there are those who don't feel that way at all. Aikidokas who non-violently have successfully countered attacks as dictated out by O'Sensei. These people get a lot of gruff from those pro cross training as if those who don't x-train are unskilled and stupid bunnies. But these people I think have more faith in Aikido, and the don't have to cross train, they feel. 

Those who x-train may not have been very well skilled in Aikido, as a result they are lacking confidence in the art. Some may too impatience. I see this to be true personally. 9out of 10 times those who cross train or feel the need to X-train have not "got" Aikido very well. It is a difficult art. When the bar is so high it is frustrating. X-training deflates that frustration that come when the bar is set too high, and allows for expectations of Aikido to be met differently. 

Is having faith in Aikido blinding, or enlightening who is right?


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## arnisador (Jul 8, 2005)

Some people treat Aikido as philosophy--almost religion. For them, faith is the issue.

If one approaches it as a martial artist, one must see the lack of practical weapons work and ground grappling, plus the difficulty of defending the jab with Aikido, and so on. (Yes, it can be done, but it isn't easy.) Then, cross-training makes sense.

It depends on why one studies! Aikido is a good system with relative strengths against long weapons and multiple attackers, in my opinion, but no system has it all.


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## GRIM (Jul 9, 2005)

Cross training is the anwser to the perfect style because there isn't one and there never will be. I think Aikdo looks pretty cool and definitly has some practical application, did I mention it would compliment Kenpo greatly and vice versa. 

 But the fact remains that it, like any art has it's draw backs. Mainly the whole as Bill Wallace says "snag the punch out of" thin air theroy.
 Against a skilled opponent who isn't giving stemmed energy this won't work. 

 Even a basic understanding in boxing would help to at least put this in to perspective, hence the need to cross train.

 For example I love kenpo and train as much as possible but, I recently decided to take up BJJ because I want at least a basic or intermediate understanding of the "ground game".


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## Yari (Jul 10, 2005)

AikidoCal said:
			
		

> I was having a discussion about Aikido with another person the other day, and that came up. I am not sure if cross training in another art while an active Aikidoka demonstrates a lack of faith in the art.
> 
> .......
> 
> Is having faith in Aikido blinding, or enlightening who is right?



It really depends on what you want from the style; excercise, filosofi, selfdefence or a program for self developement.

Since your talking about selfdefence or fighting, I would say that you should find a teacher that knows this and pratices it. If he does understand this he'll point you in the right direction be it other styles or just inside the style itself.

But sadly not many masters exsist that would do this, so students "think" that they can themselves find the missing links(x-train). They go hunting for the best missing link, thinking themselves the best judge to know if a thing works or not.

There are many AIkido styles, and if you need something else than what your club is practicing, then mayby you should be looking for another club. And if you don't have that luxery, then maybe you should be looking for a different sensei. Looking for your own style will be like making soup of everthing you enjoy eating. Maybe one or two poeple will make a great soup, but most people will not, and need guidance.

So the questions is not if you can or should x-train, but how your mindset fits you sensei/style.

/Yari


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## theletch1 (Jul 10, 2005)

One of the lines you'll see posted on the front of several of the Nihon Goshin Aikido dojos is "Where self defense is a science, not a sideline."  We do train is a manner a bit more consistent with defending yourself on the street than say KI aikido of some of the more esoteric sub-styles.  Having said that though, there are still gaps with in the system for self defense.  A great many of our yudanshokai hold dan ranking in other arts and these other arts tend to find their way into the everyday training of our aikido-ka.  I don't for a moment believe that aikido is the be all and end all of self defense.  For most of us it takes way to long to become proficient in aikido technique to view it as a viable way to pick up self defense quickly.  When one becomes proficient in the art and is able to defend oneself properly with it then they are a bit more capable of picking and choosing what parts of other arts can be incorporated into your aikido to make it a more complete style.  I brought kenpo with me to my aikido dojo, others have brought ju-jitsu, karate-do, wing chun etc and when working with someone with another background it's always interesting to see what sneaks in during multiple attackers or randori.


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## amir (Jul 11, 2005)

My brother just told me yesterday he met with an Aikido teacher from another style, they talked together and the teacher asked my brother to show him Tai-Sabaki and then the application of the Tai- Sabaki to actual techniques, he was then surprised to realize we practice locks in their potentially damaging form, rather then some changed format that removes the danger.

I have had a similar experience in several other instances in which I practiced with veteran Aikido students (1st dan and above) form other styles, they were surprised to find out I apply the locks, and in a painful way that aims at breaking their joints.



Those are examples of a teacher and several senior students for who Aikido will never be applicable for S.D. on it's own. They may be great teachers for practice movement, Aikido style, and they may advance their students in a path of personal development. But they will never be capable of teaching them S.D.

The problem is even greater with some teachers and students, who delude themselves into the belief their way is applicable S.D. regardless of their training remaining idealistic at best. Once a teacher believes, his students follow.





X-training, with other teachers, other styles, and other M.A.  forces one to "play with other rules" and look at other models of violent encounters. None will promise these models apply for ones next altercation, but if one believes the rules will be those he meets in a non-violent Aikido lesson, hw will meet a violent surprise.





Personally, I stopped looking for S.D. in my study of Aikido. In fact, in the last few years I invest more and more time into the study of traditional weapons (Jo, Ken, iai, Wakizashi, Bo, Naginata, ...), while those do help me learn better Aikido, it would not have been my course had I felt any interest in improving my S.D. skills on the short run.

For me, Fighting is the "mirror" or criteria for the practice. When looking at a technique or concept, one should ask, resarch and examine it's quality in a fight, when would it apply? how to evade a punch? a counter?  Can you flow through to option B (if it failed)? ...    



Amir


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## theletch1 (Jul 11, 2005)

Amir, that's a very well thought out response to this thread.  I'd have to say that I agree with you on the surprise when working with some other aikido-ka that don't actually apply a lock until uke taps out.  I'm in it as much for SD as self improvement (although the self improvement seems to be happening a little faster) but am in no rush to "master" aikido.  I'm confident that I can use my aikido skills blended with my kenpo skills to defend myself until such time as I'm proficient enough in aikido to use just that.


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## arnisador (Jul 11, 2005)

> X-training, with other teachers, other styles, and other M.A. forces one to "play with other rules" and look at other models of violent encounters.



More and more I see how essential this is. It's amazing how many assumptions are built into the ways we train.


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## Shogun (Jul 12, 2005)

once at class, one of the rougher guys asked the assistant instructor who was teaching if we could do Aiki defenses against double leg takedowns. The instructor explained that it is not a traditional aiki defense, and, although there is a possible defense against it, its not really aiki. Aiki is a particular way of doing something, and to stray away from it takes away from its goal.

our instructor always told us that if we wanted to do something else to supplement (for fighting sake) that he actually encouraged it, but it wasnt needed. Sensei Barrish (the instructor) practiced several forms of Bujutsu, Iaido, and Kyudo. some other guys did Judo, Kenjutsu, Karate, Iaido, BJJ, and Hapkido. when I did Aiki, I was also doing Taijutsu and wrestling. so it depends on the teacher, and their lineage, beleifs, etc.


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## amir (Jul 13, 2005)

> once at class, one of the rougher guys asked the assistant instructor who was teaching if we could do Aiki defenses against double leg takedowns. The instructor explained that it is not a traditional aiki defense, and, although there is a possible defense against it, its not really aiki. Aiki is a particular way of doing something, and to stray away from it takes away from its goal.


 



My Sensei always asks us  if we have new situations we would like to train. The way he teaches, Aiki is the concept behind your response, not some limitation on Uke selection of attacks. I am always dumbfounded by teachers who insist on training only a specific set of situations, even with advanced students.

Then again, I am studying with a very good teacher who has practiced Judo and Karate to a similar level to his level of Korindo Aikido (All for more then 30 yrs and around 6-7th Dan). Our group normally has enough advanced students to examine, test and try new situations, including students who have learned other M.A. I would not suggest the same concept for a Shodan teacher with a group of beginners (one does have to calm them from thinking they are learning to fight TODAY).





> Quote:
> 
> X-training, with other teachers, other styles, and other M.A. forces one to "play with other rules" and look at other models of violent encounters.
> 
> More and more I see how essential this is. It's amazing how many assumptions are built into the ways we train.


 



In my past, I had a short period of time (~2-3 yrs) I practiced in Korindo Aikido and TKD in parallel. The TKD was with a younger teacher (about my age) who had some experience in law enforcement (court security). He used to devise various S.D. exercises that were quite different from the things I was used to. Cooping with those, I was amazed to find out how much I have learned from my teacher without even knowing it or doing anything in practice (group VS group and similar stuff). A good teacher teaches below the surface much more then one expects.



Amir


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## Shogun (Jul 15, 2005)

> My Sensei always asks us if we have new situations we would like to train. The way he teaches, Aiki is the concept behind your response, not some limitation on Uke selection of attacks. I am always dumbfounded by teachers who insist on training only a specific set of situations, even with advanced students.
> Then again, I am studying with a very good teacher who has practiced Judo and Karate to a similar level to his level of Korindo Aikido (All for more then 30 yrs and around 6-7th Dan).


well, as I posted he was the assistant teacher. I would never Discredit anything said about aikido if it comes from Sensei Barrish's mouth. the man has been teaching aikido for 40 years, and is the only american shinto priest in the world's history. www.tsubakishrine.com


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## brothershaw (Jul 16, 2005)

I dont think cross training means no faith or a bad thing but it can be an eye opener. For people who habe never practiced anything else I might be good for them to see different types of attack that are more "dynamic" or fluid, than what they are used to. Or understand how some people operate at a different range than they are used to practicing at. Or the possible wholes in what they are doing. But that applies universally across the board no matter what styles a person trains in.

    Crosstraining is also good because you are no longer taking the word of one teacher but exposing yourself to other things and either
a- your own teacher will turn out to be right on point 
b- you see they have some of the answers, and are a good starting point
c- there is someplace else where your time would be better spent (could be same style just different teacher)


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## KyleShort (Jul 18, 2005)

Shogun that is a bit odd.  Though I have not studied Aikido much at all, what I have been told has always been that Aikido is a method, not defined technique.  The kihon dosa exist to teach principles, with infinite variations.  I have actually seen aikido defenses against a double leg and I can think of several different breath throw variations that may be used.

Certianly though I could see not teaching this because defense against a double leg is not common in the core aikido currcilulum used to teach the principles...at some point though you must transcend technique and become spontaneous.


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## CrankyDragon (Aug 23, 2005)

NGA is a blend of martial arts, so was JKD if Im not mistaken.  There are some forms that are results of blending arts, and that can only be done by cross training.

 Only you have the answer, to what will suit you.  It is, what it is.

 Good luck,
 Andrew


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## kroh (Sep 15, 2005)

However, JKD is a form of combat that expects to learn from its opponents.  The system ( yes...we are not just a bunch of thugs running around practicing nothing ;-) ) starts off very structured by teaching the student a very well incorporated blend of Wing Chun Gung Fu, western Boxing, and Fencing (motions used for footwork, timing, etc.).  At more progressive levels of skill, the student can start to operate "outside the box" where he can start to bring in "complimentary skills" to his syllabus.  This is where a lot of Kali, western wrestling or Brazilian wrestling, and Muay Thai Boxing start to come to play.  All of these arts compliment the basic syllabus well *IF* they are taught in complimentary fashion.  There are a lot of people out there teaching JKD who are just collecting techniques and saying they are teaching JKD, but whose method loose the core technique ( intercept attack through forward pressure and a strong centerline ).  

I have trained in Aikido in the past with several reputable instructors in Rhode Island and have always enjoyed my training.  I find that some of the foot work and methodology compliment my JKD training well.  But i wouldn't use them out of context.  

I would think that cross training and application of what you learn to your Aikido studies (*in context*...it would look funny during randori if an attacker comming in suddenly saw you, while wearing the 'gittup'...break into a boxers bounce, start flicking your nose and started throwing jabs) should be seemless.  After all, when some one attacks you out in the world they are not going to stop in the middle of the fight and yell at you because the Kenpo you learned isn't part of the "traditional syllabus."  It is exactly the same when you are on the battlefield and you run out of ammo but the people you have already killed have plenty on them.  You will not refuse to use their weapons against them just because they are not "standard American Military equipment."  You will do what you have to.  

A guy I train with every once in a while has a saying, 

"Fighting First, Systems Second."

Makes perfect sense.  If the "hakama" is a bit too restrictive or you have no faith in what you are learning... Get a better pair of pants and train elsewhere. If you can see cross training as a "supliment"  to your Aikido, then you are a step ahead with an eye toward the fight rather than just earning another belt.  

Regards,  
Walt :asian:


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## Jenna (May 2, 2006)

I'd love to be master of a variety of arts but time taken to learn new arts is time taken out of my "Aikido strengthening". I have no desire to be a jcak of all trades and master of none. And is the most profitable way to spend training time, learning a completely new art or is it better used developing and adapting your existing art? I'm unconvinced that cross training is the best way to fill gaps.

I think the original post is correct. Cross training is where we go after developing a lack of faith in our art. When I am shown my Aikido is weak in relation to its application and to my goals then I go for new techniques / adaptation / situation training. Throwing in the towel to go to find another art isn't an option I would consider. I wish the same went for us all. But naturally we all have our different goals and methods.

If you don't believe in your Aikido or whatever art you practice or you don't feel it completely suits you then cross-train away or hook up with the better fit! But if you believe in your Aikido, if you believe in your art at all, stick with it, build it, adapt it, tighten it up and seal any leaks and it will see you through, no doubts. 

Yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna


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## Yari (May 2, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> ..... if you believe in your art at all, stick with it, build it, adapt it, tighten it up and seal any leaks and it will see you through, no doubts.
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble svt,
> Jenna


 
Hi

Just wondering; How would you do taht wthout looking to other arts(x-training).

/Yari


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## Jenna (May 2, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> Just wondering; How would you do taht wthout looking to other arts(x-training).
> 
> /Yari


Hi Yari.
OK, I'm not claiming to be an expert in anything but I work with a group of Aikido partners who are not afraid to try new things. We often try blind attacks where uke comes in randomly with as UNUSUAL an attack as possible as opposed to standard nage-uke beginnings. 

We use non-standard attack in particular to tighten up our skillset. If I see my opponent is weak at the edges of his circle that is where I launch my attack from  this is how we seal the leaks, if that makes any sense. 

If I feel I am open to leg attacks or maybe grappler style takedowns, I work on my distance, my speed and my footwork. I wouldnt go to BJJ or Gracie for that sole purpose. And Id love to believe that all artists in all arts took that view. Maybe thats naïve . But as an example, Id never dream of suggesting that a TKD practitioner who felt vulnerable to kansetsu waza went and joined an Aikido class. Id suggest they train the kicks to take out my points of application  my hands or arms. 

Yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna


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## brothershaw (May 2, 2006)

Jenna - I respect your dedication to training, and your honest attempt to plug holes as you find them. Still even if you dont train in other arts there are some things you should take a look at to broaden your prospective on things you may have to deal with.
     At the same time often the way to deal with certain things are there within an art but is not shown or passed on and the knowledge is lost until "rediscovered". 
    I dont practice aikido, I do practice more than 1 art but that is because they do different things, and dont really think of myself as a cross trainer since i am trying to learn both completely.


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## green meanie (May 2, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Cross training is where we go after developing a lack of faith in our art.


 
Not always. It doesn't have to be anyway. Cross-training can be about testing your skills against attacks not normally found in your art. For example, Cross-training in wrestling doesn't have to involve you learning how to shoot takedowns unless you want to. It could just be an incredible opportunity to practice your aikido against a good takedown -one that probably isn't being done in your Aikido class. Just a thought.


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## Henderson (May 2, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Not always. It doesn't have to be anyway. Cross-training can be about testing your skills against attacks not normally found in your art. For example, Cross-training in wrestling doesn't have to involve you learning how to shoot takedowns unless you want to. It could just be an incredible opportunity to practice your aikido against a good takedown -one that probably isn't being done in your Aikido class. Just a thought.


 
I gotta agree with this. Denny and I have trained together before. I primarily practice a "stand up" art (Goju). But I know, if I end up on the ground, I want to know what to do while I'm there. That's where Denny comes in. Cross-training doesn't mean you have to learn another complete system. Just be prepared to deal with a wider variety of things in an even wider number of ways.

Just my $.02


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## Yari (May 3, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hi Yari.
> ....
> 
> We use non-standard attack in particular to tighten up our skillset. If I see my opponent is weak at the edges of his circle that is where I launch my attack from  this is how we seal the leaks, if that makes any sense.
> ...


 
That's sounds like a solid approach.

But the catch in this is "how do you know were there is an attack possiblity, without praticing another style/view?". Because working with one style will only give you the possiblities that the people in that style can see.

/Yari


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## theletch1 (May 3, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> I gotta agree with this. Denny and I have trained together before. I primarily practice a "stand up" art (Goju). But I know, if I end up on the ground, I want to know what to do while I'm there. That's where Denny comes in. Cross-training doesn't mean you have to learn another complete system. Just be prepared to deal with a wider variety of things in an even wider number of ways.
> 
> Just my $.02


I agree with this completely.  Of all the folks in my aikido dojo there may be one or two that can take me to the ground.  Both of them have a background in grappling and are a wealth of knowledge for what to expect while not on your feet.  Were these two not there we'd not have their perspective on that area of defense.  I like to think of aikido as a living art and in order for the art to grow it must continue to look at and respond to other than traditional attacks.


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## Jenna (May 3, 2006)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> Jenna - I respect your dedication to training, and your honest attempt to plug holes as you find them. Still even if you dont train in other arts there are some things you should take a look at to broaden your prospective on things you may have to deal with.
> At the same time often the way to deal with certain things are there within an art but is not shown or passed on and the knowledge is lost until "rediscovered".
> I dont practice aikido, I do practice more than 1 art but that is because they do different things, and dont really think of myself as a cross trainer since i am trying to learn both completely.


Hi there 
That's a brilliant, clear perspective, thank you for it. I think that my art has everything I need for me to do what I'm trying to do in my life. But I'm not trying to be snobbish - I think YOUR art and EVERY art has everything necessary for us to live our lives.

I think you make an exceptional point when you say that knowledge is often lost in the case of the older arts and maybe not yet discovered in some of the newer arts - everything from Gracie to the likes of Kajukenbo and Parker and probably Aikido too since it's not exactly old and venerable either.

I may sound naive but I make no apology for that. In my mind it's better to dig a little deeper into our main art before we go off checking the grass on the other side of the fence. And I'm sorry but I do think X-training is just another manifestation of disposable MA and I hate to see it because I love MA in all forms.

Some people say TKD is nothing but kicks. Rubbish. Some say grapplers are powerless upright. Cr_p! Me? I'd say why go off looking for other, better, smarter, newer stuff? Stop and retrace some of your footsteps back into your own art. I'm all for trying new stuff but it's within the structures of my Aikido. I take the point that attacks can come from other sources, I mean, there's no high kicks in my Aikido whatsoever, but reality check for me, of course there's the chance that some wiseguy might try that on me showing off to his mates - London can be like that. Same goes for chokeholds, headbutts and whatever we dream up. Personally, I do not want to train to attack like this. But I certainly DO want to train my Aikido to allow me to handle such attacks if and when they happen.

My point is that X-training is the current "in" thing. I appreciate the benefits, certainly I do. But I think there are few arts - NONE imo - that can't handle what they're given from whatever source it's dished out. I think practitioners just need to think a little deeper and stop taking the easy option.

Anyway, stop me, I'm off on tangents. I really hope that makes some sense???

Yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna


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## The Lorax (May 3, 2006)

I agree with Jenna, most arts have the ability to work in most any situation, you just need to train more.  I'd be open to training with people from other arts, not to learn the art, but to find a way to counter it with aikido.


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## Jenna (May 3, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> That's sounds like a solid approach.
> 
> But the catch in this is "how do you know were there is an attack possiblity, without praticing another style/view?". Because working with one style will only give you the possiblities that the people in that style can see.
> 
> /Yari


Hi Yari, thanks for your encouraging comment 

Yeah you're right, me or my training partners would never claim to know much if anything about the range of arts out there. But really, me, I'm not pedantic about exactly mimicking attacks from other arts. I know how to kick to head, trunk or leg, I know how to punch and put together combos, I know how to takedown. I know none of those to the extent that I could call myself anything like proficient in those various artforms but we use those as a means to an end - they're just the touchpaper to ignite our Aikido defences. That's the theory anyway 

In my limited experience, most real attacks are big, drunken haymaker hooks that I'd see in London every Saturday night or mugger's chokeholds that both of my closest friends have had bad experiences of. So, I'm not overly inclined to be accurate in our little Aikido group when training the more flamboyant attacks that most of our great MAs do so well. When we're "sealing our leaks" and tightening up, we just need to have a level of randomness, or simulate SOME level of similarity to reality in our attacks. They aren't the key. Our defence using our art is the key.

Blimey, I can't believe I typed all that. Again, I hope there's maybe a tiny grain of sense somewhere in it.

Thanks again, yr most obdt hmble svt,
Jenna


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## Yari (May 4, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> ......Blimey, I can't believe I typed all that. Again, I hope there's maybe a tiny grain of sense somewhere in it.
> 
> Thanks again, yr most obdt hmble svt,
> Jenna


 

Yes, and your shinning through. It's lovely to see, even though I don't know who you are.

Gambatte!

/yari


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## MartialIntent (May 4, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Again, I hope there's maybe a tiny grain of sense somewhere in it.
> 
> Thanks again, yr most obdt hmble svt,
> Jenna


I've gotta agree with Yari - well said. I find myself agreeing with those sentiments pretty much entirely. More than a grain of truth imHo.

Respects!


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## Jenna (May 4, 2006)

Yari said:
			
		

> Yes, and your shinning through. It's lovely to see, even though I don't know who you are.Gambatte!/yari


Thanks Yari, that's such a nice thing to say!  And I love the Gambatte sentiment. You're really kind!

I think it's difficult enough to find an art that we like. Some of us flit from one to the other before finding one that fits. Aikido fits me perfectly for what I'm trying to do - I'm not into competition and I'm not into big techniques but at the same time I have the utmost respect every last one of us in our martial arts endeavours, whatever shape and form they take.

And most of all Yari, I enjoy hearing people talk of their art with pride rather than slagging it off as being useless on the ground or worthless as a defensive art or whatever. I just don't like hearing that talk, I really don't. When I hear that sort of talk I just think the artist has not thought with due diligence about their art. 

I'm worried about talking too much but I just want to say one last thing on X-training - and bear with me  My old grandad had a pair of boots. He used to say, "They'll bury me in these boots," and when he passed on, yep, that's what happened. He must have had those boots since he started working forty-five years earlier, I'm not joking. When the soles wore out, he got them replaced by his mate Sid the cobbler. When the laces frayed, he made himself some more from black jute or marlin twine and of course he kept those boots army-clean every day with enough elbow grease to whitewash a fence and put sage leaves in them to keep em smelling sweet! Those boots never let him down.

My point? When OUR boots wear through we order up some new ones. When OUR laces fray, we buy more. When OUR boots get dirty we leave them dirty. Why did my grandad not buy new boots? Because the boots fitted him perfectly. He used to tell me it would take years to break in a pair of boots to that extent. That's how I feel about my Aikido. It'd be my wish that we hang back a bit from trying to be big and clever x-trainers and focus HARDER on what we really know in our art that fits us so well.

Anyway, I know, yet another of my aimless musings. All those words typed - my fingers are sore and my nails are all broken, ha! Where's the nearest manicurist?? 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna


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## green meanie (May 4, 2006)

Jenna I understand what you're saying, and know exactly where you're coming from, and _for the most part_ I agree with you. I just think we have a different definition of what X-training is. Using your grandfathers boots analogy, I'd say your definition of X-training is trading in the boots instead of seeing how far your boots will take you. My definition of X-training is keep your boots for life (just like you're suggesting) but don't be afraid to walk on a variety of terrain while you're wearing them. Does that make sense?

Cause for me, X-training is like this. I'm a grappler. Always have been, always will be. I've added a few tools to the toolbox along the way but at my core I'm _ALWAYS_ going to be a wrestler. When I X-train with Tae Kwon Do guys it isn't to learn their art; I'm not there to learn how to jump spin and kick; I'm their to see how my art holds up against it. Because, for me, if I _REALLY_ believe in it I have to be willing to test it. And no one in the wrestling room is going to throw a kick well enough to prove it - I _HAVE_ to go to where the kicking power is. Not to learn it, but to endure it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, for me, X-training isn't a lack of faith, it's the opposite. It's having so much faith in what I do that I'm willing to throw it up against anything because I know in my heart that it will hold up. I've taken it that far. Know what I mean?

I hope that makes sense... but even if it doesn't just keep doing what you're doing cause you're _DEFINATELY_ on the right track. And who knows? If it doesn't make any sense on this side maybe it will when you get on the other.

:asian:


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## Jenna (May 4, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Jenna I understand what you're saying, and know exactly where you're coming from, and _for the most part_ I agree with you. I just think we have a different definition of what X-training is. Using your grandfathers boots analogy, I'd say your definition of X-training is trading in the boots instead of seeing how far your boots will take you. My definition of X-training is keep your boots for life (just like you're suggesting) but don't be afraid to walk on a variety of terrain while you're wearing them. Does that make sense?
> 
> Cause for me, X-training is like this. I'm a grappler. Always have been, always will be. I've added a few tools to the toolbox along the way but at my core I'm _ALWAYS_ going to be a wrestler. When I X-train with Tae Kwon Do guys it isn't to learn their art; I'm not there to learn how to jump spin and kick; I'm their to see how my art holds up against it. Because, for me, if I _REALLY_ believe in it I have to be willing to test it. And no one in the wrestling room is going to throw a kick well enough to prove it - I _HAVE_ to go to where the kicking power is. Not to learn it, but to endure it.
> 
> ...


 
Hey green meanie - I'm sure you're not really a meanie, I'm sure you're a big pussycat that purrs beside your lady at the fire, ha! LOL.

Yep, I like your analogy. I'm sort of in an analogy mood at the minute so that really works for me and expands out the idea. I'd hate to think I'm being picked up wrong. I'm maybe not so good at explaining myself after I've had a few... espressos that is 

I think we're saying the same thing but I'm adding too much sugar into my cake mix and making it way too sweet and bad for teeth. You're saying your X-training is training with taekwondoin, karateka, whatever and you're not interested in learning how to be at their level IN THEIR ART, but you simply want to acclimatise yourself to their attacks? I hope I've paraphrased you right. I'm exactly the same only we don't go out of our way to call up our friends across the street who do those arts, we're a miserly cheapskate sort of bunch and approximate "other" attacks ourselves. So we're sort of on the same page I think.

Thing is, for me, that's not X-training. Now I'd never claim to know anything about anything (yeah Jenna, I think that's obvious to everybody by now) but for me, X-training would imply I learn how to step-behind kick, how to do proper Wing Chun blocks, how to do takedowns and all the other fantastic techniques. That's what X-training is to me, it's like a supplementary set of skills that I'd bolt onto my Aikido and use it as needed. That's what I see X-training as and I shy away from that approach because I think my Aikido has everything in it I need. And I think your grappling is also a self-contained framework of techniques that doesn't need improved on by adding more strikes or stand-up techniques or weapons training. No, if there's a leak in your grappling style, it simply needs plugged from within by applying thought. 

Am I coming over as being all confrontational? I hope not. I could do with some more coffee though. I'm on the wane at this time of night / morning...

It's really good to talk with you mister green meanie purrrring pussycat... Ah, I'm just joking but man, you grapplers scare me, so I gotta soften you up a bit and take the sharp edge off you in my head. Forgive me!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt
Jenna


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## green meanie (May 4, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey green meanie - I'm sure you're not really a meanie, I'm sure you're a big pussycat that purrs beside your lady at the fire, ha! LOL.
> 
> Yep, I like your analogy. I'm sort of in an analogy mood at the minute so that really works for me and expands out the idea. I'd hate to think I'm being picked up wrong. I'm maybe not so good at explaining myself after I've had a few... espressos that is
> 
> ...


 
Hush your silly self, you're embarrassing me. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





And I'll tell ya the story behind the name sometime but for now lets stay on topic. I've been giving this some thought and the more I think about it, your definition of X-training is probably the correct one. I hope not. If it is... well, that kinda sucks cause, in my not so humble opinion, that ain't no way to be doing this. But, I think right now the important thing is we seem to all be in agreement that a person needs to invest some _REAL_ time into their art before looking for another art to solve their problems. Take the time to learn your art and see if the answers are there before looking somewhere else and cobbling some half-assed martial mess together. I really believe the answers are there in EVERY art if a person takes the time to look for them.

Oh! And Jenna... you're forgiven.


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## The Lorax (May 4, 2006)

I agree with jenna's definition of cross training, but it sounds to me like you're doing similar things and calling them different names.


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## green meanie (May 5, 2006)

The Lorax said:
			
		

> I agree with jenna's definition of cross training, but it sounds to me like you're doing similar things and calling them different names.


 
I think you're right.


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## theletch1 (May 5, 2006)

Sure, the answers may be in my art...but what if I don't know that there is a question to be asked?  Sampling other arts simply gives me the opportunity to look at SD from a different perspective and may raise questions that can be answered with aikido that I'd never have thought of had I not looked at situation A from the view of art B.  I understand loyalty to the art but I don't understand putting on a pair of blinders because I'm afraid of seeming to be doubting aikido.


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## Jenna (May 5, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Sure, the answers may be in my art...but what if I don't know that there is a question to be asked? Sampling other arts simply gives me the opportunity to look at SD from a different perspective and may raise questions that can be answered with aikido that I'd never have thought of had I not looked at situation A from the view of art B. I understand loyalty to the art but I don't understand putting on a pair of blinders because I'm afraid of seeming to be doubting aikido.


Hey Jeff 

You're exactly right, there's absolutely nothing wrong with sampling other arts any more than there's anything wrong with sampling a Bud if you're usually a Miller person. Everyone likes new stuff. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else but personally, that's really not what I mean. What saddens me Jeff is when people who have a base in an art insist on doing the hop, skip and jump around other arts because they're looking to seal up leaks in their base art. An art that they've probably put a lot of time and effort into.

Again, I'm solsly referring to an art with which the practitioner is comfortable. An art that's a perfect fit. Naturally if the art is no good for the practitioner then an alternative MUST be found.

But I think doing the MA hop-skip and jump is the modern way Jeff. I think we've gotten too complacent in disposability. And there's no need for it. I see you're an NGA man Jeff - you should know better than most that there's no need to go window shopping or looking for parts for tune-ups because your art has a lot more crammed under the bonnet.. sorry hood, than most.

If you're looking out of interest in other arts, I applaud your search to broaden your horizons. Personally, if I thought I was round the corner talking blocks with the Hung Gar sifu, I'd be hearing alarm bells ringing that it was time to start pushing my own Aikido boundaries out a bit more. 

Jeff, I think the arts are boundless. I think any art can be anything to any person. If that's naive I don't care. I believe it to be true.

Hey Jeff, is your ID theletch as in "the letch"?? You're not a letch are you really?? Sorry to be nosey. Tell me to keep my snout outta your business and I'll go take a swim in the canal 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## theletch1 (May 6, 2006)

Jenna, "Letch" is the first half of my last name.  The full last name is a bit tough for folks to pronounce so I picked up the nickname "Letch" when I served my time in the USMC.  As for me actually BEING a lecher, well, I'll never tell.:uhyeah: 
  I am, indeed, an NGA man.  I love the art.  I don't see myself leaving and beginning the study of any other art in this life time.  As for cross training, my definition of it is a bit more along the lines of sampling other arts from the aikido view...Not seeing SD from the other arts view.  If you see cross training as studying one art for a while then swapping to another art because you're not a master inside a week then, yeah, crosstraining isn't a good idea.  We've had several of these "Masters" come through the door of our dojo and none of them stay for long.  The trouble there is that they never give themselves time to build a good base in one art before looking at the same situations through the prizm of another art and simply wind up confusing themselves.  These are the same folks that achieve a yellow belt in six different arts then decide to become Shihan of their own, new and "super effective" art.
  I think we have a responsibility to not only ourselves, but to our art to sample what else is out there.  I'm not saying go sign up at another school to find out.  I AM saying invite others to your dojo, visit and watch at other dojos and encourage those within your dojo to share what they've learned elsewhere to give a much broader view of how others may attack or defend.  I don't think this shows a lack of faith in my art at all. To the contrary I believe it shows great confidence in my art to stack it against all other perspectives.  Aikido is not the only way but it's the right way for me.


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## Jenna (May 6, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Jenna, "Letch" is the first half of my last name. The full last name is a bit tough for folks to pronounce so I picked up the nickname "Letch" when I served my time in the USMC. As for me actually BEING a lecher, well, I'll never tell.:uhyeah:
> I am, indeed, an NGA man. I love the art. I don't see myself leaving and beginning the study of any other art in this life time. As for cross training, my definition of it is a bit more along the lines of sampling other arts from the aikido view...Not seeing SD from the other arts view. If you see cross training as studying one art for a while then swapping to another art because you're not a master inside a week then, yeah, crosstraining isn't a good idea. We've had several of these "Masters" come through the door of our dojo and none of them stay for long. The trouble there is that they never give themselves time to build a good base in one art before looking at the same situations through the prizm of another art and simply wind up confusing themselves. These are the same folks that achieve a yellow belt in six different arts then decide to become Shihan of their own, new and "super effective" art.
> I think we have a responsibility to not only ourselves, but to our art to sample what else is out there. I'm not saying go sign up at another school to find out. I AM saying invite others to your dojo, visit and watch at other dojos and encourage those within your dojo to share what they've learned elsewhere to give a much broader view of how others may attack or defend. I don't think this shows a lack of faith in my art at all. To the contrary I believe it shows great confidence in my art to stack it against all other perspectives. Aikido is not the only way but it's the right way for me.


Hey Jeff 

Aha, thank you for explaining your ID!! Just a nickname phew! That's by far the better explanation  NGA and a marine boy too? That's some skillset you have going on. I had a session or two of NGA a long time back and I know you boys play it rough and I like that. Personally I'm way too frail and easily broken to be mixing it up with the NGA rowdies  But I think it's great that Aikido is complex enough and tough enough to stand up being worked into so many moulds. A great art and I love it. Though as you can see Jeff, I love 'em all!! I think they're all great and you can hiss at me like a big rattlesnake if that's naive, I don't mind. This is why I don't think trying to cross-pollenate Aikido with other stuff is the best way to get a great bloom. Uh-oh, I'm off into a horticultural simile and I know nothing about flowers. Oh well, I think the better plan is to self-pollenate - to take the introspective view of the art before trying to mutate into something newer. Ha, I like that.

Your points about the yellow belt shihans is very well observed and very funny too - thanks for the giggle!! And I like your view on how you do your Aikido. You are very wise. I hope - and I'm pretty sure - you live by your words!

Thank you.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## theletch1 (May 11, 2006)

Jenna.  Yes, Letch by name, not by nature. (I have to write that in case my fiance reads this post:uhyeah: ).  The skillset from my Marine Corps days was really all about survival with out regard to what happens to the other guy.  That's old Corps values for ya.  My understanding of the new Corps is a little different outlook on how the guy shooting at you must be dealt with.  I'm glad I had a much simpler set of rules to deal with.  The idea of situational awareness, though is one that I brought home with me from the Corps.  I did get the chance to work with some British Royal Marines during a training mission and loved every minute of it.  Those guys are seriously hard corps!

Yes, NGA does play rough.  Martial Intent pointed out that we've lost alot of what makes aikido aikido by not including as much of the spiritual in our art as the more traditional styles.  I agree with her.  I'd even argue the point for her in a discussion with members of my own dojo.  We are much more akin to aiki-jujitsu I think.  Doesn't bother me, really.  I've seen a great deal of internal growth during my studies and had a lot of what I already believed in my core re-affirmed by my training in aikido.  I don't think our lack of shinto influence makes the art any less effective or makes us any more ruthless than any other aikido-ka but it does seem to give a slightly different "flavor" to the art.  Any time you get to the states contact me here and I'd love to have you join us in a training session at our dojo as my honored guest.

p.s. You can count the number of moulds that aikido will fit into when you can count the number of aikido-ka in the world.:asian:


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## Jenna (May 11, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Jenna. Yes, Letch by name, not by nature. (I have to write that in case my fiance reads this post:uhyeah: ). The skillset from my Marine Corps days was really all about survival with out regard to what happens to the other guy. That's old Corps values for ya. My understanding of the new Corps is a little different outlook on how the guy shooting at you must be dealt with. I'm glad I had a much simpler set of rules to deal with. The idea of situational awareness, though is one that I brought home with me from the Corps. I did get the chance to work with some British Royal Marines during a training mission and loved every minute of it. Those guys are seriously hard corps!


Hey Jeff 
Thanks for following up with this! I don't know if I'm supposed to ask because it maybe isn't on topic or whatever but I don't care cause I want to know - how do you reconcile the Marines survival training to the Aikido defence training? Where one is concerned with the preservation of the yourself and your corps but not the foe whereas the other is concerned for both? Are the two at odds?

And I hope you are not gonna tell me you dropped your USMC training into the recesses of your memory because that would be losing something pretty awesome, no?

Just interested off topic or not - shoot me for it if you want I don't care I'm bulletproof. And there's no one else here anyway, ha! 

And thank  you for the invite! I'd love to take that up but I'd get my a$$ kicked, honoured guest or not, ha! Just jokin wid ya 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## theletch1 (May 12, 2006)

Jenna, I don't feel that it's the least bit off topic.  My Marine training could be considered cross training, after all.  I was a Marine in the days before the new MCMAPS program so the h2h training we had was pretty much judo and a little karate thrown in...unless you count the bayonet training as being juken-jutsu.  There is an old saying that "Once a Marine, always a Marine."  Anyone who put as much of themselves into earning that title as is needed will agree with that.  I haven't dropped the training, it has evolved to suit me in civilian life.  Honestly, the h2h training that I had was eclipsed by my kenpo training as well as my aikido training.  The military training that has stayed with me and served me best is the intangible stuff.  Honor, respect, dedication to duty and a never say die mentality are so deeply ingrained that it would be futile to try to purge them from me.  Those aspects of who I am have and continue to serve me well in all levels of my life.

Reconciling the two different psychological dynamics has not been that hard for me.  Living with the idea of having to destroy the enemy to accomplish my mission meant that fewer of my brothers in arms would fall on the battlefield.  It was a point of honor and love for my fellow Marines that drove that mentality...it wasn't a desire to kill for the sake of killing.  So, you see, even the Old Corps mindset was one of protecting others...you just had a narrower view of who had to be protected.


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## Jenna (May 12, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Jenna, I don't feel that it's the least bit off topic. My Marine training could be considered cross training, after all. I was a Marine in the days before the new MCMAPS program so the h2h training we had was pretty much judo and a little karate thrown in...unless you count the bayonet training as being juken-jutsu. There is an old saying that "Once a Marine, always a Marine." Anyone who put as much of themselves into earning that title as is needed will agree with that. I haven't dropped the training, it has evolved to suit me in civilian life. Honestly, the h2h training that I had was eclipsed by my kenpo training as well as my aikido training. The military training that has stayed with me and served me best is the intangible stuff. Honor, respect, dedication to duty and a never say die mentality are so deeply ingrained that it would be futile to try to purge them from me. Those aspects of who I am have and continue to serve me well in all levels of my life.
> 
> Reconciling the two different psychological dynamics has not been that hard for me. Living with the idea of having to destroy the enemy to accomplish my mission meant that fewer of my brothers in arms would fall on the battlefield. It was a point of honor and love for my fellow Marines that drove that mentality...it wasn't a desire to kill for the sake of killing. So, you see, even the Old Corps mindset was one of protecting others...you just had a narrower view of who had to be protected.


Wow! Thanks for sharing that Jeff. 

I mean it sounds to me that you've seen active service in an actual theatre but I won't pry but just say I am impressed. And glad the training doesn't really go away. It's sort of reassuring in a way as a civilian to know that. 

Well you were able to assimilate the two divergent sets of ethics but I wonder if things went bad for you in a "for real" situation, which side of your training would show itself as instinctual? That's amazing. I would love to have had that sort of  military training but I'd have been way too soft. 

I know they're two totally different systems for two totally different scenarios but is there anything your Aikido training gives you that you didn't get from your USMC training?

Fantastic to get your reply. 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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