# suggesting counters to self defence techniques!



## Tony (Apr 3, 2005)

I was just wondering if anyone here, when learnign techniques such as throws, locks etc already begin to think about possible counters and while being taught in class actually try to use counter techniques. 
I know that in many traditional styles this maybe frowned upon, but lets imagine you are up against another Martial Artist who puts a hold on you, then what? I certainly don't want to be put in a position that i can't defend against. This is what i love about the system i'm learnign as it allows you to think and grow as a Martial ARtist.
I'm not trying to put down any styles but just offering food for thought. Look at Ju jitsu and Taekwondo, 2 very good arts but Taekwondo doesn't use a lot of grappling techniques unlike Ju jitsu. Ju jitsu utilises, chokes, holds, strikes, weapons and escapes, thus being a very useful martial art.
I think in todays world when studying martial arts new ideas and different idea have to be explored in order to gain a better idea of realism of violence so we can limit violence against us another people.


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## Blindside (Apr 3, 2005)

Good topic, but I don't know what "traditional styles" that you are talking about that frown on learning counters to techniques.  Every "self-defense technique" is technically a counter to another grab, lock, throw, or punch.  

A judo or jujitsu match would be real short if those systems neglected to train a counter to a technique.  What do hubud or chisao drills train? Counter for counter for counter.....  

As a kenpoist much of our system is a counter to grab techniques, and somewhere in our SD techniques are points where they too can be countered.  To not show the student these points, and what they can do about them is a disservice to the student.

Lamont


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## Drifter (Apr 3, 2005)

I've been messing around with reverse motion in Kenpo techniques, trying to find counters to different techniques (incredibly hard, going through each tech. in rewind 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). I know Zach Whitson (sp?) has some tapes out now on Kenpo Counterpoint, which addresses counters to Kenpo techniques. 

 I still believe the best counter to a martial artist is to preemptively counter by staying out of the conflict. Hopefully, most martial artists will continue to have high moral standards, so there won't be many MA vs. MA fights in the future.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 4, 2005)

Like Lamont said, every technique is a counter against something.  In the Kenpo style I study (and I'm sure it's this way in others) we have the techniques grouped into 7 categories of attack: 1)Grabs 2)Pushes 3)Punches 4)Kicks 5)Hugs/holds/takedowns 6)Locks & Chokes and 7)Weapons.  However, the idea (at least in my mind) is not to counter but to preempt.  If I have to counter that means that either my awareness wasn't working and I have to react to a threat, or that I wasn't using my head and finding another way to get out of a situation.  If I know an attack is imminent I'm not going to wait for the other guy(s) to do something that I'm going to have to counter, in effect playing "catch up."  I'm going to go after them first and let them worry about countering and defending.


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## MJS (Apr 4, 2005)

Most of the time when you see counters, they are either designed to happen just prior or during the actual tech. that is being done.  Usually it seems like its never ending, as there is a counter to that counter.  

As for the original question though...IMO, its best to learn the tech. first, getting a very good understanding of it, and then start to work on possible counters.  

Mike


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## arnisador (Apr 4, 2005)

In Modern Arnis, being able to "counter the counter" is something we explicitly aim for!


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 4, 2005)

Tony said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if anyone here, when learnign techniques such as throws, locks etc already begin to think about possible counters and while being taught in class actually try to use counter techniques.
> I know that in many traditional styles this maybe frowned upon, but lets imagine you are up against another Martial Artist who puts a hold on you, then what? I certainly don't want to be put in a position that i can't defend against. This is what i love about the system i'm learnign as it allows you to think and grow as a Martial ARtist.
> I'm not trying to put down any styles but just offering food for thought. Look at Ju jitsu and Taekwondo, 2 very good arts but Taekwondo doesn't use a lot of grappling techniques unlike Ju jitsu. Ju jitsu utilises, chokes, holds, strikes, weapons and escapes, thus being a very useful martial art.
> I think in todays world when studying martial arts new ideas and different idea have to be explored in order to gain a better idea of realism of violence so we can limit violence against us another people.


The super-secret flying dragon kick is so lethal there is no counter.  Seriously, though, true full contact arts, like boxing, muay-thai, judo, jui-jitsu, blend the counters with the techniques.  Imagine learning boxing without learning counter-punching or how to duck and weave and parry?  Imagine if we only taught the punches and then told you to go for it.


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## kempo-vjj (Apr 4, 2005)

We slowly get into the counters after the sensei has felt that we have technique down. No use in confusing. It hard sometimes to get yourself into the pretzel of arms in the first place. Regarding counters to some judo and jujitsu techniques, judoinfo.com has some very good combinations and counters to there listed techs.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 4, 2005)

We do, we call it "Sparring"


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## pesilat (Apr 4, 2005)

Tony said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if anyone here, when learnign techniques such as throws, locks etc already begin to think about possible counters and while being taught in class actually try to use counter techniques.
> I know that in many traditional styles this maybe frowned upon, but lets imagine you are up against another Martial Artist who puts a hold on you, then what? I certainly don't want to be put in a position that i can't defend against. This is what i love about the system i'm learnign as it allows you to think and grow as a Martial ARtist.
> I'm not trying to put down any styles but just offering food for thought. Look at Ju jitsu and Taekwondo, 2 very good arts but Taekwondo doesn't use a lot of grappling techniques unlike Ju jitsu. Ju jitsu utilises, chokes, holds, strikes, weapons and escapes, thus being a very useful martial art.
> I think in todays world when studying martial arts new ideas and different idea have to be explored in order to gain a better idea of realism of violence so we can limit violence against us another people.




I'm repeating some of what has already been said but here's my 2 cents.

Everything can be countered - and every counter can be countered.

I discourage people from worrying about counters when they're learning a technique. The tendency is that people get so hung up on the counters that they lose sight of the original technique.

Develop the material - i.e.: work the technique - until you and your partner have it solid. _Then_ you can start looking at counters. Most counters have to happen before the technique is fully applied. Consequently, it's very difficult to counter a technique that you don't know. On the flip side, if you know the technique well then you should be able to spot its strengths and weaknesses pretty quickly and find counters - even if you've never worked them before.

One example of this concept (i.e.: hard to counter a technique you're unfamiliar with) from my personal experience is this. One of my specialties is joint locks in general. I love joint locks - especially fingers and wrists - and have spent quite a bit of time on them. I was sparring a friend of mine on the ground. He's a _much_ better groundfighter than I am. We'd rolled on several occasions and I had never tapped him. The best I had done was prevented him from tapping me until I ran out of gas - his stamina on the ground is way beyond mine, too.

However, one time when we were rolling, I found a straight arm bar and tapped him. But because we were in a position where he had _never_ had an armbar applied - and didn't even realize one could be applied there - he didn't even realize that he was in danger. No sense of danger, no counter. He was flabbergasted. He said, "Man! That was awesome! How did you get an armbar from there, though?" I showed him and he said, "That is too cool! I didn't even realize I was in danger at that point and thought I was about to tap you out once I got to the position I was moving toward."

Mike


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## Martial_Maniac (Apr 4, 2005)

In my art we begin learning the basic attacks (punches, kicks, blocks, etc.) but one of the first forms we learn is basically a series of counters. We learn to counter against, punches, kicks, knife attacks, etc.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 12, 2005)

In short, i guess this is why to take up many different arts and become versitile...


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