# Bryan Mossey - Knife Grappling



## Charlemagne

I've been looking forward to seeing some of this material for some time now, and am glad that Bryan is starting to release it.  For those who don't know who Bryan is, he is a Black Belt in GJJ under Pedro Sauer, a Full Instructor in FMA under Dan Inosanto, an Instructor in Silat under Dan Inosanto, an instructor in Muay Thai under Ajarn Chai, etc., etc.  Several years back, he and Pedro Sauer started collaborating on some weapons grappling material, and it is my understanding that they are planning to release a DVD together at some point in the not too distant future.  Bryan releases a video once and a while that he calls his Mossey Move of the Week, and this time around it is on Weapons Grappling.






For the record, I sure as heck do not want to find myself in a weapons grappling situation on the ground.  But I am very glad that good people with legit credentials have started to take a serious look at this.


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## Tames D

Bryan has amazing credentials.


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## Charlemagne

Tames D said:


> Bryan has amazing credentials.



What's funny is I think that is only about half of what he has done.  He is certified under Mark McFann also, shoots IDPA, has boxing experience, and I think he was a bouncer at a 1% Biker Gang bar back in the day.  He also stated recently that for his 50th Birthday, he is going to train for an MMA fight. This is after coming off of multiple knee replacements. 


He's a heck of a nice guy as well. He always gives credit to his instructors and he went out of his way to help me out when I was at my first seminar with Guro Dan.


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## Tames D

Absolutely!


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## drop bear

Unless he lets go of the knife.


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## Buka

I've been train knife/grappling with Mark Human out of South Africa for a while now. Eye opening. Mark is a knife man first, a grappler second. We train offense and as much as defense, which I find interesting, but I guess that goes with him being a knife man first.

The first thing that struck me in training was how I carried my knife and how I accessed it. Made me rethink a lot of things.

It's a lot of fun, too.


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## Blindside

We just finished a two month module on knife grappling, but this is a new option, and I have no idea why this didn't come up.  I am also looking forward to Bryan putting out a DVD on weapon grappling.
(Which I of course will be unable to learn from because it is video, but I digress.....)


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## Charlemagne

Blindside said:


> We just finished a two month module on knife grappling, but this is a new option, and I have no idea why this didn't come up.



I think it is fair to say that the majority of FMA guys/gals don't really have a legit grappling background in an art that pressure tests their stuff the way BJJ does, and that most BJJ guys don't have a weapons background beyond the little that is shown in the Gracie Self-Defense curriculum.  There are exceptions to that of course, but I have found it to be true more often than not. Thankfully, these two camps are starting to cross over more often, and I hope that this continues.


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## Blindside

Charlemagne said:


> I think it is fair to say that the majority of FMA guys/gals don't really have a legit grappling background in an art that pressure tests their stuff the way BJJ does, and that most BJJ guys don't have a weapons background beyond the little that is shown in the Gracie Self-Defense curriculum.  There are exceptions to that of course, but I have found it to be true more often than not. Thankfully, these two camps are starting to cross over more often, and I hope that this continues.



I am quite sure my group is reinventing the wheel, but there is very little of it publicly out there.  Most of my group are judo brown or black belts (not me!) and I bring kali into the mix.  We have been coming up with "best practices" in the range and have come up with some useful stuff.  This is all done through rolling and pressure testing, so I am curious how it winds up stacking against other instructor's stuff.  But you need to find the right guys, rolling with a BJJ guy and you start talking knife they often get weirded out.


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## Charlemagne

Blindside said:


> I am quite sure my group is reinventing the wheel, but there is very little of it publicly out there.  Most of my group are judo brown or black belts (not me!) and I bring kali into the mix.  We have been coming up with "best practices" in the range and have come up with some useful stuff.  This is all done through rolling and pressure testing, so I am curious how it winds up stacking against other instructor's stuff.


  Awesome.  The more people with legit credentials working on this the better in my view.  





> But you need to find the right guys, rolling with a BJJ guy and you start talking knife they often get weirded out.


 Most do for sure, but there are a number of guys starting to use BJJ for legit weapons based combatives these days. In addition to Bryan, Craig Douglas and Cecil Burch come to mind, but I imagine there are several more I haven't heard of.


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## frank raud

Haa! I was going to suggest Cecil Burch and Southnarc. Have trained with both. Also suggest Paul Sharp.. No current DVDs from Paul but he does do seminars throughout the States.


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## Blindside

This was us two years ago, mostly dying.   Unfortunately that hasn't improved that much as everyone has gotten better.


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## Red Sun

Why is the knifer holding his opponent in a guard, couldnt he try to get his legs under him? (they might talk about that in the video but i have no audio atm)



Blindside said:


> This was us two years ago, mostly dying.   Unfortunately that hasn't improved that much as everyone has gotten better.



Hey, that's some really nice training! Do you have more vids like that?


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## Charlemagne

frank raud said:


> Also suggest Paul Sharp.. No current DVDs from Paul but he does do seminars throughout the States.



Hadn't seen him.  I'll take a look.  Thanks for that.


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## frank raud

Charlemagne said:


> Hadn't seen him.  I'll take a look.  Thanks for that.


Paul, Cecil and Southnarc are part of a team of instructors throughout the country that work together integrating grappling into a weapon based environment.


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## Blindside

Red Sun said:


> Why is the knifer holding his opponent in a guard, couldnt he try to get his legs under him? (they might talk about that in the video but i have no audio atm)



There is no instruction, it is just us sparring.  The guy in guard could improve his position but he was too busy cutting up the other guy, and he was too busy trying to work some counters to wrist and arm controls. 




> Hey, that's some really nice training! Do you have more vids like that?


Thanks, a couple, again not instructional, this one is mostly stand up:





This was us a couple of months ago doing training various takedowns from both the defenders and attackers point of view, you can see the judo influence.





Lots of other vids on that channel, but mostly matched weapon dueling and a couple of instructionals that are public.


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## Red Sun

Blindside said:


> There is no instruction, it is just us sparring.  The guy in guard could improve his position but he was too busy cutting up the other guy, and he was too busy trying to work some counters to wrist and arm controls.



Ah! I was unclear - The 1st part of my reply was referring to the video in the OP, where the knifer is just sitting in the guard. In your videos there's alot of struggling and fighting, which makes alot more sense


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## Blindside

frank raud said:


> Paul, Cecil and Southnarc are part of a team of instructors throughout the country that work together integrating grappling into a weapon based environment.



I was familiar with Southnarc but not the other two.  Thanks.


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## Tony Dismukes

I've been playing a bit lately with grappling vs the knife. Unfortunately, most of the skilled grapplers I know aren't particularly expert with the knife and most of the FMA guys I know aren't really expert grapplers. I'm starting to work some things out, but I need to do a lot more practice and research.

I did practice the sequence shown in the original video with some friends last week. It seems pretty solid, with some good ideas which should be applicable to other situations. It was interesting to see the two guys I was training with (both BJJ purple belts) had some bad instincts with regard to controlling the knife which would have gotten them badly cut or stabbed in a fight. I had to work with them a bit to get them to where they could actually drill the technique as shown.

BTW - I strongly recommend Nok knives (sold by @Brian R. VanCise ) for training knife grappling. I picked up a pair for my birthday and have been very happy with them.)


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## frank raud

Tony, do you know Aaron Little at Performance Edge?


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## frank raud

Performance Edge Training: Full Contact Gunfighting Performance Edge Martial Arts Empty Hand vs Weapons Workshop

First link is for an upcoming gun grappling class. Second is for an unarmed vs weapon seminar that has passed. Aaron does these on a semi regular basis.


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## Charlemagne

Red Sun said:


> Ah! I was unclear - The 1st part of my reply was referring to the video in the OP, where the knifer is just sitting in the guard. In your videos there's alot of struggling and fighting, which makes alot more sense



Fair question.  The video I posted was an instructional on a particular situation, and not to be taken as a "live" example.  However, I can think of one obvious scenario where you could end up in guard with the guy on the bottom having a blade, and that is if there was an altercation and the blade was deployed after it had gone to the ground.  Another one would be if the knife was deployed previously, and someone slipped and fell.  We could obviously go on and on, but I think it is safe to say that there are a number of plausible ways that someone could end up in that circumstance without really intending to.  

Cheers!


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## Tony Dismukes

frank raud said:


> Tony, do you know Aaron Little at Performance Edge?


Haven't met him, although he's close by. I looked at the website and don't see a bio for him. Do you have any information on his background?


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## frank raud

Tony Dismukes said:


> Haven't met him, although he's close by. I looked at the website and don't see a bio for him. Do you have any information on his background?


I don't have any info on his background. Did do some training with him in Ohio a few years ago at an event with Southnarc, Cecil Burch and Paul Sharp. Was just basic grappling(no weapons).


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## drop bear

Charlemagne said:


> I think it is fair to say that the majority of FMA guys/gals don't really have a legit grappling background in an art that pressure tests their stuff the way BJJ does, and that most BJJ guys don't have a weapons background beyond the little that is shown in the Gracie Self-Defense curriculum.  There are exceptions to that of course, but I have found it to be true more often than not. Thankfully, these two camps are starting to cross over more often, and I hope that this continues.




Dog brothers?


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## drop bear

Blindside said:


> This was us two years ago, mostly dying.   Unfortunately that hasn't improved that much as everyone has gotten better.



That is my experience with knife grappling. It is the art of getting shanked. 

I am still considering just trading punches with the guy.  So at least i may get the small percentage of a ko.  Or a knock down.


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## Blindside

drop bear said:


> Dog brothers?



I am not trying to be pendatic here, but to make a distinction the "Dog Brothers" usually refers to the group of people who show up at Gatherings and fight, those of us who do so who then get invited into the "Tribe."  There is no fixed standard or curriculum for this group, aside from having a certain amount of experience you get people from a wide variety of backgrounds, so you can't really say that a "Dog Brother" has any sort of counter knife experience.

Now Dog Brothers Martial Arts is a curriculum put together by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny to produce a well rounded fighter.  That curriculum while heavily based in FMA has lots of other influences, Krabi Krabong, BJJ, etc etc.  It has elements of the dueling that DB got its rep from but also more real world type stuff like unarmed vs knife.  He absolutely has a curriculum of knife defense, his knife offense isn't public and he really hasn't publicly shown too much that I have seen about dealing with the knife in a ground grapple.    I have no doubt he has an approach, but he is leery about putting his knife material out for public consumption.


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## Blindside

drop bear said:


> That is my experience with knife grappling. It is the art of getting shanked.
> 
> I am still considering just trading punches with the guy.  So at least i may get the small percentage of a ko.  Or a knock down.



It isn't a range that I want to be in either.  KOing the other guy standing is my preferred strategy too, but hard to do against any guy with any sort of skill.  They can trade, you can't.


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## drop bear

Blindside said:


> I am not trying to be pendatic here, but to make a distinction the "Dog Brothers" usually refers to the group of people who show up at Gatherings and fight, those of us who do so who then get invited into the "Tribe."  There is no fixed standard or curriculum for this group, aside from having a certain amount of experience you get people from a wide variety of backgrounds, so you can't really say that a "Dog Brother" has any sort of counter knife experience.
> 
> Now Dog Brothers Martial Arts is a curriculum put together by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny to produce a well rounded fighter.  That curriculum while heavily based in FMA has lots of other influences, Krabi Krabong, BJJ, etc etc.  It has elements of the dueling that DB got its rep from but also more real world type stuff like unarmed vs knife.  He absolutely has a curriculum of knife defense, his knife offense isn't public and he really hasn't publicly shown too much that I have seen about dealing with the knife in a ground grapple.    I have no doubt he has an approach, but he is leery about putting his knife material out for public consumption.



Yeah.  Ok.  But whoever is turning up to these DB events seem to be doing weapons work.  And grappling.

From what it looks like to me anyway.


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## drop bear

Blindside said:


> It isn't a range that I want to be in either.  KOing the other guy standing is my preferred strategy too, but hard to do against any guy with any sort of skill.  They can trade, you can't.



The issue is there are a lot of internal conflicts within the mechanics. 

Yeah.  Trading is technically low percentage. And considered a hail mary defence.

Now generally you would suggest that in a high risk situation logically you play a conservative response.

So simple basics.  Secure the weapon and no flash risks. 

Exept.  By demonstation.  Trying to secure that arm gets you carved up.  For no advance in position. You get caught in this 50/50 position try fail go back to 50/50. And with a knife it is a 90/10.

Now there are some conflicts there.  Because of course if you are getting stabbed you can't just stop.  But you also have to accept a couple of shots is putting you in real trouble.

At what point does grabbing that arm seem like a bad idea? 

The debate is looked at very dogmatically at this point.  A is better than B even if A dosent work. 

And it is brutal to consider you may have to scrap an entire mind set.


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## Blindside

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  Ok.  But whoever is turning up to these DB events seem to be doing stick work.  And grappling.
> 
> From what it looks like to me anyway.



Like I said it really depends on the guys background, lots of grappling because grappling happens, particularly if you lose your stick, your best choice is to crash and grapple.  Most guys there have a decent amount of experience weapon fighting and usually far less experience grappling.  So you tend to get lots of bad grappling, but sort of like this thread demonstrates, weapons changes grappling in funny ways so that also has an influence.


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## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Like I said it really depends on the guys background, lots of grappling because grappling happens, particularly if you lose your stick, your best choice is to crash and grapple.  Most guys there have a decent amount of experience weapon fighting and usually far less experience grappling.  So you tend to get lots of bad grappling, but sort of like this thread demonstrates, weapons changes grappling in funny ways so that also has an influence.



Form follows function.


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## Blindside

drop bear said:


> The issue is there are a lot of internal conflicts within the mechanics.
> 
> Yeah.  Trading is technically low percentage. And considered a hail mary defence.
> 
> Now generally you would suggest that in a high risk situation logically you play a conservative response.
> 
> So simple basics.  Secure the weapon and no flash risks.
> 
> Exept.  By demonstation.  Trying to secure that arm gets you carved up.  For no advance in position. You get caught in this 50/50 position try fail go back to 50/50. And with a knife it is a 90/10.
> 
> Now there are some conflicts there.  Because of course if you are getting stabbed you can't just stop.  But you also have to accept a couple of shots is putting you in real trouble.
> 
> At what point does grabbing that arm seem like a bad idea?
> 
> The debate is looked at very dogmatically at this point.  A is better than B even if A dosent work.
> 
> And it is brutal to consider you may have to scrap an entire mind set.



There is no easy answer.  I have heard some instructors essentially say that there is no unarmed defense against a skilled knifer.  Probably an overstatement, but my winning percentage is low.  But clearly people win and by doing this training hopefully when we run against unskilled people our winning percentage is higher.


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## Charlemagne

drop bear said:


> Dog brothers?



They do a good deal of stick grappling on the ground, and probably other stuff as well, but I have not been exposed to that as much.


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## Blindside

Charlemagne said:


> They do a good deal of stick grappling on the ground, and probably other stuff as well, but I have not been exposed to that as much.



In the US Gatherings it is pretty common that once it hits the ground people start going for hideaway knives.  The European DB Gatherings have intentionally steered away from this and the knife grappling is not part of the culture.  I don't know what the Canadian Gatherings are like.


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## frank raud

Blindside said:


> In the US Gatherings it is pretty common that once it hits the ground people start going for hideaway knives.  The European DB Gatherings have intentionally steered away from this and the knife grappling is not part of the culture.  I don't know what the Canadian Gatherings are like.


There is a Gathering of the Pack in Montreal this weekend. I will ask my buddies that are going.


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## frank raud

So I texted a buddy going to the Gathering, he said in previous Gatherings he has not seem hidden knives being pulled out for grappling purposes. Will let me know what happens this time round.


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## Charlemagne

Another nice video on the topic.


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