# Any other ninjutsu styles out there?



## Don Roley (Apr 23, 2005)

Hello,
I am the author of the article on the Koga ryu 

http://www.bujinkanwakodojo.com/bwd_kogaryu_history.html

which many people claiming to be members of the Koga ryu have denounced because they claim that I am "biased." Of course they themselves have a lot more reason for bias in trying to convince others that what they teach is not merely made up by them than I would have in denoucing them. And so far no one has even bothered to check my sources before denouncing them and have not provided sources for their counter claims.

I reject the notion that the article is biased towards destroying the Koga ryu. I think it is silly that anyone would try to claim that I am trying to discredit any other ninja tradition because I am a Bujinkan member. I would love to find another form of ninjutsu to examine it. I have spent a lot of money and time in researching ninjutsu and it's history, and finding a living source of techniques would be a great find. The problem is that every style I have met or examined turned out to trace back to someone outside of Japan who claimed he could not show any proof of the existence of his teacher because of secrecy. This secrecy does not prevent them from sometimes making a good living off of teaching students, or opening web sights, publishing books or aurguing for hours on the internet that they really are nifty keen ninja masters. No, it is only when asked for proof that they actually learned what they do from someone else instead of making it up themselves does the need for "secrecy" pop up.

If anyone can point me to a legitimate ninjutsu style outside of the Takamatsu den to have survived to the modern day, I would appreciate it. But I will not take a person's claim of being a student of a ninjutsu tradition without question. To be qualified as a legitimate ninjutsu tradtion by me I only require one thing.
Dianne Skoss wrote in an article "You want Koryu?", (http://koryu.com/library/dskoss1.html)
"admittedly, there are a very small number of schools that for political reasons fall through the cracks here, but essentially a tradition must be documentable in Japan"

This is all I require. It seems easy and logical enough. Give us proof that the art is or was taught in Japan and the person now teaching it can show a valid link to the person who is/was teaching the art in Japan. The idea of a Japanese- originated art being too secret to be known inside of Japan but taught openly outside of it, as well as being paraded out in front of the whole world via the internet, is too silly for someone who knows the reality of things to contemplate.
I do not require that you belong to any particular orginizations, nor appear in any particular book, or associate with any one person. All I require is that someone in Japan teaches or taught the art and that there is a link with that person by the person making the claim.

It is not neccesary, but it would really please me, if the person, tradition or orginization had been examined by an independent Japanese historian, martial artist scholar or other similar professional and that scholar had announced that the traditions filled all the known facts about ninjutsu and could be called a ninjutsu tradition. I can give you a few names of people I would reccomend, Nawa Yumio, Okuse Hichiro, Tobe Shinjuro, Koyama Ryutaro, Nakajima Atsumi and others who are known to have done considerable research into what the ninja were. And since it is rare when you can get academics to agree 100% on anything, I do not require that all of them agree and would be pleased if you can get even one person who is knowledgable about ninjutsu but has no link to the orginization (which might cloud their judgement) declare that it is a ninjutsu tradition.

Now, both the Togakure ryu and Fujita Seiko fill the second condition. None of the people posturing on the internet can even make the first catagory. I am hoping that someone can prove that they do indeed have a link to someone in Japan teaching the art of ninjutsu. So far, all the claimnants not only can not do so, but the ones I have come in contact with strike me as rather incompetent about the martial arts and ninjutsu in particular.

So if anyone wishes to convince me that they are indeed members of a legitimate ninjutsu syle, all I require is above. I would truely love to converse and meet with such people. However, I can point to at least three different people just off the top of my head who not only claim to teach the Koga ryu, but claim to be the 'only true' teachers of the art. Obviously, someone is not being truthfull and since none of them are acknowledged in Japan I am rather suspicious unless anyone can back up what they say.

So if you are a member of a legitimate ninjutsu style from Japan, please let me know and point me in the direction of confirming your claims for myself. I am really wanting to pick the minds of _legitimate_ ninjutsu practicioners.


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## mizu_teppo (Apr 23, 2005)

I heard a rumor about legitamine ninjutsu practioners outside of the x-kans located near the Kyoto district of Gion, away from the general public in the mountains. Though they don't "claim" anything like the "koga" guys claim things, and they prefer to be left alone, but it might be worth the scavenger hunt in your spare time. Just look for a strange place that could possibly be a disguised ninjutsu training ground. Hehe, this is just a rumor I heard. But it just may fit the topic you're looking for, because everyone else I can think of are obvious frauds who you've already denounced.


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## Don Roley (Apr 25, 2005)

mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> I heard a rumor about legitamine ninjutsu practioners outside of the x-kans located near the Kyoto district of Gion, away from the general public in the mountains.



Wait a second, I thought the Gion district of Kyoto was pretty much near the center of the city.

I have heard a lot of rumors on the internet and from friends. But I have not been able to get any hard facts or be shown any hard leads. I was kind of hoping that one of the many, many groups that claim on the internet to actually train in Japan or come from here would step up and give me the information that would prove their claims. I think that if I found one, and then announced it to the world that their claims were indeed true, then their status among other groups like the Bujinkan would go up a lot.

But so far, no one that claims to be from Japan seems interested in actually giving me such information.


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## Henso (Apr 25, 2005)

I second Don's conclusion, for although he has a colourful temperment, his conclusions in the article are clear, concise and thoroughly dispassionate. I can say that the documentation that he lists completely supports his conclusion, as i have done similar research and have found that this is the only supportable position. http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/

You will note from the obituary link on my site, which is a scan of newspaper cut out by Iwata Manzo, Fujita's inheritor for Nanban Satto Ryu Kenpo, Shingestu Ryu Shurikenjutsu and Daien Ryu Jojutsu, that this was also the conclusion of the leaders of Japan's Koryu, many if not all who were memebers of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai.


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## mizu_teppo (Apr 25, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Wait a second, I thought the Gion district of Kyoto was pretty much near the center of the city.


 Well, then that proves the rumor was a lie. Thanks!

 I understand exactly what you're asking for though. I too wish these other organisations would just be truthful and act like real budoka rather than lieing for their own personal gain.

 On a realted note, Henso, in the translation of the newspaper scan you're reffering to, it mentions that all real ninjutsu died with Fujita Seiko. Now obviously, this is not the case. But what are your guys' thoughts on this statement? I'll post a direct quote for an example,

 Fujita was the last person who was fully perservering in his training. All Ninjutsu including Koga ryu Ninpo has disappeared forever.

 My personal opinion is just that the speakers were ill-informed.


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## Henso (Apr 25, 2005)

My take on it from research that I've done, is that these were friends of Fujita, supporting his claim to being the "Last Ninja", a fact that the less partial Bugei Ryuha Diajiten, disagrees with. It mentions both Fujita and Hatsumi, and had occassion to examine both of their claims, a luxury those quoted in the obituary did not have.

The particular quote in question, was made by Ryusho Sakagami, a close friend of Fujita's, and must be seen in that light. Additionally, Fujita had been making such claims since at least 1936 (Ninjutsu Hiroku), and therefore was more well known than Takamatsu/Hatsumi, who really only started to do so in the 1960's (Don, correct me on the Takamatsu point, if I am wrong)


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## Don Roley (Apr 27, 2005)

mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> On a realted note, Henso, in the translation of the newspaper scan you're reffering to, it mentions that all real ninjutsu died with Fujita Seiko. Now obviously, this is not the case. But what are your guys' thoughts on this statement? I'll post a direct quote for an example,
> 
> Fujita was the last person who was fully perservering in his training. All Ninjutsu including Koga ryu Ninpo has disappeared forever.
> 
> My personal opinion is just that the speakers were ill-informed.



I agree.

These guys were friends and students of Fujita. They knew him and could speak about him. They probably did not know _every_ martial art out there or its merits. So, when they said that Fujita's art died with him they spoke with authority. It kind of calls into question the many, many people who claim to have links back to Fujita's art.

But at the same time, I believe that maybe there could be an art we have not heard about still out there. That would have been outside their experiences. 

But before I give any credence at all to a person's claims, there must be something to link them to Japan. As I said, all the arts that seem to make the claim on the internet lead back to some guy outside of Japan who won't give any proof that he actually had a teacher. That is just silly. Even if the Bujinkan cast me out today and tried to deny that I was ever as student the amount of evidence I could pile up proving that I was a student would convince any jury or panel of people. And I am not even a teacher, let alone a grandmaster like some of these folks are claiming to be.


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## Elizium (May 15, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> As I said, all the arts that seem to make the claim on the internet lead back to some guy outside of Japan who won't give any proof that he actually had a teacher. That is just silly. Even if the Bujinkan cast me out today and tried to deny that I was ever as student the amount of evidence I could pile up proving that I was a student would convince any jury or panel of people. And I am not even a teacher, let alone a grandmaster like some of these folks are claiming to be.


With yout training Mr. Roley, you can claim if you left the kan, to be a Soke or GM and still prove correct regarding training and where you trained plus where your system came from. People that do make the claims as you have said, are just playing in the myth and making the claim more grand than it should be.

If Fujita did teach, then somewhere outside of the Internet are people who have had some koga training. They may not be able to teach as good compared to today's standards, but there will be some. Perhaps, in my estimation, that they do not wish to show outside of their system with respect to the late Fujita. Perhaps they decided to let it all die away and therfor let the koga go into the past. If that is so, then we may lose some part of Japanese history.

Just my view.


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## Don Roley (May 15, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> If Fujita did teach, then somewhere outside of the Internet are people who have had some koga training.



Maybe. But I cannot think of a reason why they should. After all, if their teacher was open about what he was, why should they keep it a secret?

And if someone is willing to go on the internet and talk about what they do, it seems strange to me that they would then balk at proving those claims giving the excuse of "secrecy." Exsqueeze me? If you are talking about it on the internet it is not exactly a secret anymore.


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## Shinkengata (May 15, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you are talking about it on the internet it is not exactly a secret anymore.


And lack of proof is a blaring indication that the person claiming it is merely trying to impress or have their ego stroked.


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## r erman (May 15, 2005)

The only person I've ever heard of who actually legitimately knew some of Fujita's koga ryu was Saito Satoshi--headmaster of Neigishi Ryu shurikenjutsu.  

In one of the Skoss' books he recounted seeking out Fujita and learning the _sensu_ and some 'secret' ninjutsu applications for measurement--he mentioned it being a very advanced art using high level mathmatics.  I don't believe his training was formal, however.  And I don't think he has ever taught it.


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## Don Roley (May 16, 2005)

Oh, I have the book, and some stuff in Japanese that details the range estimation thing. I talked about it in my article in the following section.



> Later he did teach several things that can be traced to historical works such as this, but there is no record nor witness to him displaying anything that could be called ninjutsu that could only come from personal instruction. He taught and commented on things like range estimation, weather prediction and strategy, but nothing physical.



Range estimation is found in at least one book I can think of off the top of my head. The ninja were great at it. You can imagine how handy the skill of being able to tell how high a wall is without climing it, or how wide a moat is without crossing it, would be to the ninja. There is some pretty impressive mathmatics involved in the historical works.

But since he taught this item, and a few more things, I keep hoping that maybe he taught a more complete view to someone. But as I said, as the years go by and no one seems willing to talk about it my hope fades.


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## Kizaru (May 16, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But as I said, as the years go by and no one seems willing to talk about it my hope fades.


If that's the case, then Don, this is for you...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6304539258/102-3113561-5632110?v=glance

And if that doesn't work for you, 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/076790060X/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-3113561-5632110#reader-link


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## Henso (May 16, 2005)

I would have to agree about the hope/possibilty of fujita having taught anyone, fading. I can say from my own research, that if he did teach anyone, there is the highest probability it would have been Iwata Manzo, who is honoured as being his primary disciple. Iwata, however, denied that he was taught Ninjutsu.


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## Elizium (May 16, 2005)

If Fujita had taught, then his students will be more to the age of Hatsumi, if not older.  So if they do not have students, then they may be incapable of teaching it in full before the time runs out on the biological clock.  

 If they have students, then they may not be fully aware of the teaching if part of it was taught to them.  But it does seem likely that the Koga have run out in their tradition.  The only thing left to look at now, are maybe scrolls or relics.


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## Red Sky Black Sea (Apr 27, 2006)

It is my humble opinion that any true practitioners of Ninjutsu would not come forward do to the fact that if they did they would then be subject to much unwanted attention...


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## bshovan (Apr 27, 2006)

Very interesting reading on Koga can be googled at Koga Kaiden. 

Bill Shovan


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## Don Roley (Apr 28, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> Very interesting reading on Koga can be googled at Koga Kaiden.



If by "interesting" you mean complete and utter garbage- you may have a point.

I can understand how someone with no experience with Japanese martial arts and the language, etc could be fooled. If you throw a lot of stuff that sounds impressive, most people without direct experience with the subject matter will just go along with the tone of the piece. But when you know what to look for, the errors and obvious falsifications leap off of the page at you.

If anything important this "soke" could be backed up with Japanese sources, 
it would be a different matter. As things stands, nothing backs him up and he obviously does not even have a small knowledge of the subject matter.


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## bshovan (Apr 28, 2006)

Don,

I posted this site to get feedback from others to further my knowledge and education on what's factual or not. I came across this site the other night and would appreciate it if you could tell me what to look for, point out the errors, obvious falsifications,etc. That's all I'm seeking. Thankyou for your time and consideration.

Bill Shovan


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## Don Roley (Apr 29, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> Don,
> 
> I posted this site to get feedback from others to further my knowledge and education on what's factual or not.



And I started this thread to try to find another art that traces itself back to Japan. KogaKaiden does not fit that bill.

Thank you for trying. If you want to talk more about KogaKaiden, start a thread in the horror stories section and I will point out the problems in thier story. This thread is about real styles and not frauds.


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## bshovan (Apr 29, 2006)

Don,

Hopefully this will get rid of some of your negativity.

With them the seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with mine own hand wrought to make it grow;
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd-
" I came like Water, and like Wind I go."

Bill Shovan


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## Don Roley (Apr 29, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> Hopefully this will get rid of some of your negativity.



It is rather impossible to be _positive_ about frauds like this. Everyone who has used the Koga ryu name so far has not only turned out to be a fraud, but a rather incompetent and silly one. Ashida Kim, Ron Duncan, "Yo Sato", etc. All frauds, all make me laugh with the way they move and what they write.

I understand that  you do not have any experience or knowledge of ninjutsu and are trying to find the real deal. But in the future you may want to reword your posts. If you really want to, "get feedback from others to further my knowledge and education on what's factual or not" then post something like this.



> Hi, I found a site about the Koga Kaiden and was wondering if anyone could tell me if they were real or not.



Saying that you can find something interesting if you looked them up gives people the impression that they should find them and take them seriously. But of course, you should not take frauds like them, Duncan, Kim, etc seriously and anyone who does just does not have much in the way of intelligence IMO.


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## bshovan (Apr 29, 2006)

Don,

I appreciate the advice, keep up the good work.

Bill Shovan


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## Kizaru (Apr 30, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Ashida Kim, Ron Duncan, "Yo Sato", etc. All frauds, all make me laugh with the way they move and what they write.


 
And what kind of screen name is "B.S. Ho Van" anyway? Sounds like _yariman_ to me...


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2006)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-OnlyAnEgg
-MT Senior Moderator-


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## bshovan (May 2, 2006)

My thanks to the moderator,

Kizaru, in all do respect, my screen name bshovan is short for my name, if you failed to see is bill shovan. Making fun of my last name is making fun of my family name, of which many could also do with your " Maloof " last name. As far as the comment, Yariman, maybe that's just an oral fixation you nocturnally have mastered in your primary art and ranking you list as, " hand to gland combat." No offense taken and I apologize to all for this reply but I felt that my family name was directly attacked and it was uncalled for. Again, my apologies to martialtalk and the moderators for this reply and I will end it here.

Bill Shovan


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## Don Roley (May 2, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> As far as the comment, Yariman, maybe that's just an oral fixation you nocturnally have mastered in your primary art and ranking you list as, " hand to gland combat."



You kind of ruined the effect of your apology with this little parting shot at Kizaru.

Perhaps you should just leave it alone and stop responding entirely. Taking that type of shot and then coming back with an apology later would sound like you were just trying to be sneaky. I do not want that in this thread. I already had one thread with this title closed due to trolls. I want this one to stay open and not degenerate to people taking shots at each other like the above.


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## bshovan (May 2, 2006)

Don,

I'm kind of confused here. In all honesty, I only responded to a personal attack on my family name, one I derived from my father, a decorated Korean War veteran. Please be honest with all viewing this now that if someone so mocked your last name, who you got from your father, you would not respond to it. How about he who did so, he is the one to blame, not me. Enough said. 

Bill Shovan


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## Don Roley (May 2, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> Please be honest with all viewing this now that if someone so mocked your last name, who you got from your father, you would not respond to it.



Well, I would not make that yariman comment after the mods told us to keep things respectfull. Don't try to attack the other guy just because you think he attacked you. Listen to the mods. Leave it alone. Don't try to prove to others that you commited no wrong, because you are not giving me that impression. Just let it drop and in the future listen to the mods and don't try to get in little digs like that yariman comment after they tell folks to calm down.


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## bshovan (May 2, 2006)

Don,
Enough said, already to much time mispent. Time to get back to the original of this thread for further education. Thankyou.

Bill Shovan


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## ManOfVirtues (May 3, 2006)

I am in agreeance with the majority of the people on this board and responding to this thread in regards to these so claimed "masters". 

I cant quite figure out how to word this so im going to start rambling. 

I think in large part if there where, which I doubt, other legitimate schools out there why do they not make thier presence known? the only thing I can think if is the 80's and all if its stereotypes pissed them off. So they went and did there own thing asking thier members not to talk about it. Legitimately they could provide martial lineage if confronted. But I could see it from the other side. You have been told not to talk about it, but come online looking for answers to questions you may have. Suddenly it becomes a testostorine driven pissing contest, a bunch of children fighting over "Im a ninja, no your not, am too, you cant be because I am". Dont get me wrong im not defending the frauds, or intentionally giving ammo. im just trying to answer the most basic question, why ?

it is IMO that a martial art is created by someone somewhere. They teach others that teach others. If Ashida Kim and those similar want to go that road more power to them. But to call themselves Traditional Ninjitsu is dis-honorable and should be treated as such.

and thus ends my morning rant.


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## Kreth (May 3, 2006)

The funny thing is that all of these "ninja" were never heard of until Hayes' articles started showing up in Black Belt, and his books began gaining popularity. Then suddenly up pops Law, Duncan, Dux, et al, saying, "We've been doing this for years."


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 3, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> The funny thing is that all of these "ninja" were never heard of until Hayes' articles started showing up in Black Belt, and his books began gaining popularity. Then suddenly up pops Law, Duncan, Dux, et al, saying, "We've been doing this for years."


 
How true!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Don Roley (May 3, 2006)

ManOfVirtues said:
			
		

> I think in large part if there where, which I doubt, other legitimate schools out there why do they not make thier presence known? the only thing I can think if is the 80's and all if its stereotypes pissed them off. So they went and did there own thing asking thier members not to talk about it.



I kind of doubt anyone in Japan would have done this. They could have come forward long before the big ninja boom and the image of the ninja has never reached the level it is outside Japan.

But if someone is talking about training in a place that we can hear about it, then obviously they do not fall into your idea. They are willing to talk about it, just not prove it. Thus I treat them as frauds. If they don't like me saying so, then they should shut me up with the minimum amount of proof I ask for. If they don't care enough to prove things to me, then why do they spend hours venting against me in various forums? It is not hard at all to prove your own training history and so far, none of the ninja masters I have looked into like Duncan and such seem able or willing to show the proof that even a lowly ranked person could about their teacher.


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## ManOfVirtues (May 3, 2006)

Don I think we both are on the same page.


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