# Some guidance for a beginner would be SUPER appreciated.



## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

Hey everyone, just joined the forum. Looking forward to being a part of the community!

Ive been tossing around the idea of joining MA for a while now, and am certain it's something I am going to commit to. So naturally, I first need to decide on a style right?

Hours & hours later of digging through the rabbit hole of YouTube, the styles that interest me the most both happen to be FMA: Kali & Aikido. Alot of people on YouTube hate on Aikido because it isn't "practical" or "realistic in a real fight", but Im mainly joining MA to be a part of something, and to enjoy the art itself.

I think Aikido is beautiful. I love the elegance, and the idea of being able to use your opponents moves against them, or to throw them off balance. Also it seems its more about understanding how to the body works beyond punches and throws. Knowing how to break any fall.





But there doesn't seem to be much offense to it, and there also aren't competitions or sparring. After I have the basics of whichever art I choose, I would like to Spar. I'm a bit of a competitive person, and more importantly always need something to strive forward. A goal. So being able to compete would be great.

Heres a video I found of Kali that really attracted me to the fighting style:





The thing is, theres so many different videos that contradict each other. So if anyone can confirm that the 2 videos I posted above are pretty accurate representations of each fighting style, that would be appreciated.

Also what do you think? At this point I just want to flip a coin, but if you know any other fighting styles that may interest me I would love to hear about it. Thanks in advance fam!


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 30, 2016)

My art is Hapkido.  I have never studied FMA so I can't really tell you much about it.  I've never studied Aikido, but I have watched a lot of it, and talked to students of Aikido.  From what I can tell, there are many similarities between Aikido and Hapkido, and some glaring differences.  Both are primarily defensive, and can easily cause injury if one doesn't know how to flow into a defense. Hence you will not find a lot of 'sparring.'

Both should be very effective if taught and learned properly.  You may see people on MT who will tell you that learning against a non-resisting grappling partner is useless, and therefore the art is useless.  Disregard that unless after some period of time you come to believe it.  Then you should try something else.  Still not because the Aikido itself is not a good and practical art, but because either it isn't being taught correctly, or you aren't learning correctly.

One further thing.  FMA are good arts.  However, from my slight knowledge, they mainly depend on weapons.  With Aikido you are the weapon.

Good luck in your journey.


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## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2016)

The problem won't be what style you'd like to do but what is available around your way to train. I'd have a look at what is being taught near you, visit the places, see what grabs you and makes you think 'wow I want to do this', if you like the way instruction is given and it's affordable then do that.
You might be lucky and have a lot to chose from but if you set your heart on one of the styles you show in your post and there's no where to train it you are going to be disappointed.
Anyway, a warm welcome to MT! let us know how things go.


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## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

Thanks for the input guys! Hapkido looks interesting. I like the aggressiveness but with similarities to Aikido. And I think im just going to Completely ignore youtube comments when checking out these styles. I mean, man, EVERY single style I look at... 50% of ppl comment "This style is useless, the attacker isnt going to let you just throw them"..

Anywho, I live in Nashville, got a few options around here. Definitely will be visiting a few places before deciding on one. If anyone else has input its appreciated


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## Charlemagne (Jun 30, 2016)

The FMA video is of a guy named Paul Ingraham who is formerly of the Pekiti Tirsia Kali Global Organization.  His movements and style are representative of Pekiti Tirsia Kali as it is taught be Tuhon Tim Waid, who is the head of that organization.  I train with an instructor in that same group in a different location, and I can honestly say that having trained in three different FMA systems, and in Pekiti Tirsia in a different organization, as well as Japanese Jujutsu, what and how things are taught in PTKGO is far ahead of anything I had seen before.  If you are interested in weapons and FMA in general, I strongly suggest taking a look if there is an instructor in your area.  PTK-SMF™ Instructors - Pekiti-Tirsia Kali Global Organization 

Where are you located?  It doesn't do you much good to explore styles you have no access to other than to satisfy your intellectual curiosity.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 30, 2016)

Welcome to MT!

Do some searching, we get this question regularly and lots of people have put a lot of time and energy into answering thoughtfully and thoroughly.  Look for 'what style should I study' or words to that effect.

Before you get attached to the idea of a style to study, consider these things:

1) What's near you.
2) What is the reputation of what's near you.
3) Are the days and hours within your schedule.
4) Can you afford it.
5) Will you dedicate yourself to years of study.

Once you have a short list, go visit.  Watch, take notes, ask questions.

Then make a decision and give it some time before you decide that it's not for you (assuming you feel that way).

Give it 10 to 20 years and you should be good to go.

Ultimately, style matters less than you might think.  Be open.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 30, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Welcome to MT!
> 
> Do some searching, we get this question regularly and lots of people have put a lot of time and energy into answering thoughtfully and thoroughly.  Look for 'what style should I study' or words to that effect.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of the above except the last.  Style does matter.  If you have specific goals, there are certain styles/systems that may or may not be geared toward helping you achieve them.  It really comes down the the goals that the OP has for his training, but the style chosen matters a great deal.   

Some styles spar, some don't.  Some styles compete, some don't. Some are into the 'spiritual' aspects of things, some are not.  Some are good for self-protection, and some just flat out don't work.  Some are good for physical fitness, and some are so untaxing that you can get to 3rd degree black and still get winded going up a flight of stairs.  Some train weapons, and some do not.  This is simple reality.

Style does matter, as does the instructor within that style.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 30, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> I agree with all of the above except the last.  Style does matter.  If you have specific goals, there are certain styles/systems that may or may not be geared toward helping you achieve them.  That is simple reality.



OK, fair enough.  However, I believe that people who train long enough to be proficient in any one of a number of styles are truly dangerous individuals who have great capability to defend themselves, which is something the OP seemed to be concerned about.

If the goal is something different, such as internal enlightenment (not joking here), then yes, some styles might offer more or less in that sense.

As to competition, well, I don't have much to say about that. I would hope that the OP would change his mind about that over time; I know I did.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 30, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> OK, fair enough.  However, I believe that people who train long enough to be proficient in any one of a number of styles are truly dangerous individuals who have great capability to defend themselves, which is something the OP seemed to be concerned about.


  Agreed.  There a number of martial arts that are good for self-defense.  However, there are also a number that are selling snake oil in that regard. 



> If the goal is something different, such as internal enlightenment (not joking here), then yes, some styles might offer more or less in that sense.


  Yep.  Totally agree with that. 



> As to competition, well, I don't have much to say about that. I would hope that the OP would change his mind about that over time; I know I did.


 Perhaps.  I'm not going to tell someone else what their motivation for training ought to be, but people do tend to see a decrease in their desire to compete as they age. Or perhaps their body simply will not allow it anymore!  LOL    

In all seriousness, I would say that some goals are not necessarily compatible with each other.  For example, martial arts styles that focus on "internal enlightenment" as you put it, are probably not going to complete, or even spar.  Arts that put a primacy on function are probably not going to spend much time examining the spiritual side of things. 

As such, my strongly recommendation for the OP is to seriously think about his goals, prioritize them, and then use that as a lens to examine what is available within reasonable distance. From there, make some visits, try a few free classes, perhaps sign up for a month or so at a place that seems positive, and then go forward.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 30, 2016)

Good advice here.  I will just reiterate:  look at what is actually available and accessible to you.  If it is too far away to make it to class, or costs more than your budget will allow, or the schedule is incompatible with your other obligations in life, then it doesn't matter, it is just not possible.

So be realistic in your assessment of what is possible, and then look at those options.  They may not be what you initially thought you wanted, but you still might find something that is an excellent fit for you and gives you good quality training and meets your needs.

If you make a list of those options, people here might have some meaningful input.


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## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

Actually Im not so concerned with the self defense aspect, as I am the art itself & the overall experience. But, at the same time i dont want to learn a martial art thats all katas & has no practicality at all.

My main goal is to practice a MA that I will enjoy. For example, I know I wouldn't enjoy a MA thats all grappling techniques. I know upfront that my preference (although Im keeping an open mind) is a mixture of Offense & Defense. Which is probably why Im attracted to Kali (offense) & Aikido (defense).I will definitely see what my area has to offer though  Theres a couple Kali & Aikido places here so I'll be checking them out this week


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## Flying Crane (Jun 30, 2016)

Be careful of your assessment of kata.  They are a tool that, when properly understood and properly practiced, and when used alongside the rest of the training methods, can be extremely useful in helping you develop your skills.  

Not everyone likes them, and they are not a requirement in order to develop good skills.  There are plenty of methods that do not use kata, and they can be extremely effective.  I personally believe that many people do not properly understand kata and practice it very poorly, and in that case it is useless.  But don't make a sweeping judgement on kata, if it is something you do not understand and have no experience with.

It is ok to decide you don't like it, and that you wish to pursue a method that does not use it.  But don't erroneously pass judgement on it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 30, 2016)

iamstevengold said:


> Actually Im not so concerned with the self defense aspect, as I am the art itself & the overall experience. But, at the same time i dont want to learn a martial art thats all katas & has no practicality at all.
> 
> My main goal is to practice a MA that I will enjoy. For example, I know I wouldn't enjoy a MA thats all grappling techniques. I know upfront that my preference (although Im keeping an open mind) is a mixture of Offense & Defense. Which is probably why Im attracted to Kali (offense) & Aikido (defense).I will definitely see what my area has to offer though  Theres a couple Kali & Aikido places here so I'll be checking them out this week



The problem is that you don't know what you don't know.  Not your fault, but you cannot properly evaluate what a system does or does not do if you are not an adept in that style.

Kata is everything - including self-defense.  But that depends on the teacher and the student.  It is not something a non-practitioner can determine.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 30, 2016)

iamstevengold said:


> Actually Im not so concerned with the self defense aspect, as I am the art itself & the overall experience. But, at the same time i dont want to learn a martial art thats all katas & has no practicality at all.
> 
> My main goal is to practice a MA that I will enjoy. For example, I know I wouldn't enjoy a MA thats all grappling techniques. I know upfront that my preference (although Im keeping an open mind) is a mixture of Offense & Defense. Which is probably why Im attracted to Kali (offense) & Aikido (defense).I will definitely see what my area has to offer though  Theres a couple Kali & Aikido places here so I'll be checking them out this week



I would also like to add the following.

First, please don't take this as an attack.  You seem like a nice person who is thoughtfully exploring your choices.  Good for you.

However, you are straying into the territory that often gets people riled up around here.  That is, a newbie shows up, announces that they want to study MA (good), they're searching for an MA style that does X, Y, or Z (OK, fine, whatever), and by the way, they 'know' what various things are for or are good at.  They don't want to learn kata, because it's useless.  They don't want to grapple, because X or Y or Z.  They don't want to this and they don't want to that.  They know this and they know that.

The problem is, you don't know much about what is and what is not factual about MA.  You have a set of preconceived notions, and most of them are wrong.  And there are experienced people here from all sorts of backgrounds.  Announcing that kata is useless or whatever is generally going to piss them off.

Again, no offense.  I'm speaking bluntly, but hopefully in a friendly manner.  Try to keep a more open mind.  Many things are not as you might perceive them as a beginner.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jun 30, 2016)

MY Kenpo karate instructor does FMA under Guro Dan Inosanto  gonna choose FMA go to Dan Inosanto


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## Flying Crane (Jun 30, 2016)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> MY Kenpo karate instructor does FMA under Guro Dan Inosanto  gonna choose FMA go to Dan Inosanto


Is Dan, or an instructor under him, in Nashville?


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 30, 2016)

Back, no way back, when I studied TKD, we did kata, but we called them forms.  No body made a big thing out of it.  We were told to learn forms and we did.  We understood that we were using blocks, kicks, and strikes.  We understood that they should be learned will with the idea that our sparring would be more proficient if we did.  We also understood that real life use in a real fight would be better if we could use any of the many blocks, kicks or strikes we learned.  But like I said, there was no big discussion about it.  It just was a part of our curriculum and we did it. It just was a part of TKD.  It was years after I quit studying that it occurred to me they could also be multiple-attacker defense.

Move on and some years later I began studying Hapkido.  What?! no forms?  This is a martial art, right?  Well, it is a different style and requires a different paradigm.  We learned techniques against specific attacks.  So why do you need kata/forms?  Do a search on that and look at the different answers.  Generally in those styles that use them, they are a teaching method.  When people start bashing forms in arts where most schools teach them, my thoughts are that they, or their teachers, have allowed a useful tool to slip from their teaching/learning.  But then everyone gets to believe as they wish.  Again, do that search and decide for yourself before you put them down.


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## Buka (Jun 30, 2016)

First - welcome to MartialTalk, bro.
Next - go ahead, just flip that coin and go.
Then....just go have fun training.

Or...

Spend a week or two and go watch classes at every place near you. Get a feel for each place.
Then flip that coin and just go. You're going to love training.....or not. You won't know until you go.

Keep us posted.


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## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> They don't want to learn kata, because it's useless.  They don't want to grapple, because X or Y or Z.  They don't want to this and they don't want to that.  They know this and they know that.



Im definitely not dismissing kata/forms for those that have said that i am :O What i said was I dont think i would be interested in doing MA that is ONLY katas. Not to disrespect those art forms at all, of course. But i never said "useless" or anything of the sort 



Bill Mattocks said:


> The problem is, you don't know much about what is and what is not factual about MA.  You have a set of preconceived notions, and most of them are wrong.  And there are experienced people here from all sorts of backgrounds.  Announcing that kata is useless or whatever is generally going to piss them off.



I totally understand the naivety that I have towards the Art. Being new its impossible for me not to be. For example, i play classical piano. Im sure you can imagine the people that think they know how to play music but really have no idea, compared to the ppl who spend 8 hours a day practicing. Naivety is inevitable.

But to be fair, I dont think its a good idea to start something new doing something polar-opposite of what attracts you to that art in the first place. If someone starts piano because they like classical music, i wouldn't make them practice jazz scales all day. Maybe a section of their practice time would be, just to get the technique down. Otherwise the student will probably quit because they're spending nearly all their time doing something they dont like.

At the same time i want to be super open-minded, but i think its a smart idea to at least START with the art that interest me the most. What do you think?


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## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

Buka said:


> First - welcome to MartialTalk, bro.
> Next - go ahead, just flip that coin and go.
> Then....just go have fun training.
> 
> ...



Thanks man! Yea im definitely leaning forwards the idea of just going to a few places and seeing how I feel, how the instructors teach, etc. No better way to choose than seeing it first hand.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2016)

iamstevengold said:


> Im definitely not dismissing kata/forms for those that have said that i am :O What i said was I dont think i would be interested in doing MA that is ONLY katas. Not to disrespect those art forms at all, of course. But i never said "useless" or anything of the sort



Some people in this forum are very defensive when anything bad is said about kata. It's understandable: a lot of people do bash it, when it's something that can be very useful. I think this was a case of some being oversensitive to it, since normally when it's mentioned negatively, the person doing so is implying it is useless. Don't worry too much about it.





> I totally understand the naivety that I have towards the Art. Being new its impossible for me not to be. For example, i play classical piano. Im sure you can imagine the people that think they know how to play music but really have no idea, compared to the ppl who spend 8 hours a day practicing. Naivety is inevitable.
> 
> But to be fair, I dont think its a good idea to start something new doing something polar-opposite of what attracts you to that art in the first place. If someone starts piano because they like classical music, i wouldn't make them practice jazz scales all day. Maybe a section of their practice time would be, just to get the technique down. Otherwise the student will probably quit because they're spending nearly all their time doing something they dont like.
> 
> At the same time i want to be super open-minded, but i think its a smart idea to at least START with the art that interest me the most. What do you think?



I agree with you almost entirely. If there's something that attracts you to martial arts, you should definitely start with that. Just don't be surprised when you find out that you like something entirely different. I assumed for years that I would hate any grappling arts, then one day I tried it out and discovered that, despite my experience in MA, and despite my confidence that I wouldn't enjoy what looked like groping other men while both get sweatier, for some odd, unexplainable reason it is a lot of fun and I love it. At some point another this will likely happen to you.

It's different than piano in the sense that I can listen to both Jazz and Classical music and know that I like one and not the other before I ever start playing. I can watch two different training methods, or sparring styles, and have no clue which one I will actually like until I try both of them.


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## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Move on and some years later I began studying Hapkido.  What?! no forms?  This is a martial art, right?  Well, it is a different style and requires a different paradigm.  We learned techniques against specific attacks.  So why do you need kata/forms?  Do a search on that and look at the different answers.  Generally in those styles that use them, they are a teaching method.



Nice man, how did you like Hapkido? You think its a good one to start with, or maybe something more traditional that focuses on katas & technique? (I dont know anything about Hapkido, so I could be completely wrong in my thinking sorry) But i like the style of Hapkido based on what ive seen


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## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Some people in this forum are very defensive when anything bad is said about kata. It's understandable: a lot of people do bash it, when it's something that can be very useful. I think this was a case of some being oversensitive to it, since normally when it's mentioned negatively, the person doing so is implying it is useless. Don't worry too much about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nicely put, and totally agree. My expectation is that I will start with one thing, say for example an aggressive style, only to find im also interested in softer techniques like grappling. Cant say with a Definite answer what you like until you try it out


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## Tames D (Jun 30, 2016)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> MY Kenpo karate instructor does FMA under Guro Dan Inosanto  gonna choose FMA go to Dan Inosanto


Dan is in Los Angeles. The OP is in Nashville. I don't know if someone in his Org teaches in Tenn.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 30, 2016)

iamstevengold said:


> Hey everyone, just joined the forum. Looking forward to being a part of the community!



Welcome to MT.



> Hours & hours later of digging through the rabbit hole of YouTube, the styles that interest me the most* both happen to be FMA*: Kali & Aikido.



Perhaps I'm misreading your statement here, but it appears as if you think both Kali and Aikido are Filipino Martial Arts (note the bolded statement). You're aware Aikido is a Japanese art, correct? No big deal, I just was a bit confused by your statement.

Pax,

Chris


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## JR 137 (Jun 30, 2016)

chrispillertkd said:


> Welcome to MT.
> Perhaps I'm misreading your statement here, but it appears as if you think both Kali and Aikido are Filipino Martial Arts (note the bolded statement). You're aware Aikido is a Japanese art, correct? No big deal, I just was a bit confused by your statement.
> Pax,
> Chris



Here I was thinking I was the crazy one.  Glad it's not just me.


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## JR 137 (Jun 30, 2016)

Forget about which art to choose.  Choose a school.  Find out what's in your area, and eliminate the ones you can't afford and your schedule conflicts with.  Visit the rest.  The most important style is the teacher's teaching style.  Look at how he/she treats the students, how they act, if they're proficient, if class follows a logical pattern, etc.

Who's teaching you and who you're training alongside are far more important than anything else IMO.  Let's suspend reality and say aikido is the best art there is.  What if the teacher isn't very knowledgeable?  What if you're training alongside a bunch of kids who think they're power rangers?  Do you think this ultimate art will be a good fit for you under those circumstances?

Let's also play along and say TKD is a sport for kids to make their soccer moms proud.  What if your local school has teacher related the art in the exact way you think it should be, and the students are a bunch of tight knit adults working their butts off in a no nonsense manner that would welcome you as a valuable part of their group?

I've seen some great aikido schools, and a few horrible ones.  I haven't seen enough Kali schools to make the same statement, but I'm sure they've got the full spectrum too, as every art I've seen does.  

Choose a school, not an art.  If it's a tie and you can't lose either way, then choose an art.

All IMO.


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## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> Forget about which art to choose.  Choose a school.  Find out what's in your area, and eliminate the ones you can't afford and your schedule conflicts with.  Visit the rest.  The most important style is the teacher's teaching style.  Look at how he/she treats the students, how they act, if they're proficient, if class follows a logical pattern, etc.
> 
> Who's teaching you and who you're training alongside are far more important than anything else IMO.  Let's suspend reality and say aikido is the best art there is.  What if the teacher isn't very knowledgeable?  What if you're training alongside a bunch of kids who think they're power rangers?  Do you think this ultimate art will be a good fit for you under those circumstances?
> 
> ...


That totally make sense. I always tell people the piano techniques you practice aren't nearly as important as the teacher you choose. Thanks for the input


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## iamstevengold (Jun 30, 2016)

chrispillertkd said:


> Welcome to MT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Woops! haha, thanks for the correction


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## Brian King (Jun 30, 2016)

Welcome to MT iamstevengold!
And, welcome to the journey.
You said above thread that you play classical piano. At what level do you play? You may wish to speak to whichever instructor that you end up choosing if any injury to your fingers or wrists would be career damaging concern...  Surgeons and musicians can of course train any art but care should be taken.

I agree with the thought that finding the teacher that you like, that you get along with, and whose students you seem to like is very important. You will be spending a lot of time and energy with them.

Regards
Brian King


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## Tez3 (Jul 1, 2016)

Iron Wood Productions said:


> Both seem like a great choice! Here at Iron Wood Productions we specialize in modern, Olympic-style Taekwondo tutorials that all have unique techniques and tips that can be derived and applied in any martial arts. The best thing about it is that you get quality information taught by experienced, world-class instructors. We've got new uploads every week so check it out and maybe you'll find something super beneficial to use!
> Iron Wood Productions




That's a crafty way to get free advertising here.


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## Kickboxer101 (Jul 1, 2016)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> MY Kenpo karate instructor does FMA under Guro Dan Inosanto  gonna choose FMA go to Dan Inosanto



Man do you have to promote your school or your teacher in every post I doubt that info is much use to the op


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## donald1 (Jul 1, 2016)

Hello! 

Some advice... technically it never hurts to learn the self defence aspects anyway. A good thing to know is pay close attention to detail. The instructor might turn his/her foot before stepping or turn his/her hips before striking. It might not seem like much but the little things can make a difference 

Good luck!


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 1, 2016)

iamstevengold said:


> Nice man, how did you like Hapkido? You think its a good one to start with, or maybe something more traditional that focuses on katas & technique? (I dont know anything about Hapkido, so I could be completely wrong in my thinking sorry) But i like the style of Hapkido based on what ive seen



I did and do like the Hapkido I studied very much!  But I can't guarantee you or anyone else would.  As I was taught, we used all parts of our body and we defended against attacks on all parts of our body.  We often put people on the ground but stayed up ourselves, at least on one foot and one knee, if not on both feet.  We learned ground techniques as a way to get off the ground, not to join an opponent there.  We were a defensive art, but if we had to engage, whatever happened to the opponent was the opponent's responsibility, and it would be something painful, damaging, or both.

Do not misunderstand that as a declaration of Hapkido as the only good MA.  I don't know of a bad or useless MA.  All have good points and bad.  You will need, as others have said, to look for yourself, or maybe even actually try different ones until you find one you like.  I wish you good luck with that.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 1, 2016)

donald1 said:


> Hello!
> 
> Some advice... technically it never hurts to learn the self defence aspects anyway. A good thing to know is pay close attention to detail. The instructor might turn his/her foot before stepping or turn his/her hips before striking. It might not seem like much but the little things can make a difference
> 
> Good luck!



Absolutely!  I never felt so uncoordinated in my life as when I began studying Hapkido.  Usually I found if I watched more closely, as donald1 said, I would see some seemingly little thing that made it work.


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## WaterGal (Jul 1, 2016)

iamstevengold said:


> Nice man, how did you like Hapkido? You think its a good one to start with, or maybe something more traditional that focuses on katas & technique? (I dont know anything about Hapkido, so I could be completely wrong in my thinking sorry) But i like the style of Hapkido based on what ive seen



Hapkido doesn't typically use kata (poomsae in Korean) as such, but the techniques are commonly taught through a series of prearranged partnered drills.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2016)

iamstevengold said:


> Nicely put, and totally agree. My expectation is that I will start with one thing, say for example an aggressive style, only to find im also interested in softer techniques like grappling. Cant say with a Definite answer what you like until you try it out



You can stop and do something else. Or do two martial arts at once.

I would continue to expose myself to other styles or classes just to add some perspective.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 1, 2016)

1st question is do you want to learn weapons beyond a staff. Not every martial arts has a wide selection of weapons to learn. You can narrow your options based on that.  If you don't want to learn weapons then you can pick a school that has limited or no weapons training. 

2nd do you want to learn martial arts for self defense or for sport. This matters because the training and focus aren't the same. Some people learn the sports side of martial arts and become disappointed when they discover that their skills don't help in a real fight.

From there you can see what schools fit these characteristics. Schools that train for self defense will have conditioning that may be more extreme than what is done for sporting purposes.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> From there you can see what schools fit these characteristics. Schools that train for self defense will have conditioning that may be more extreme than what is done for sporting purposes.



No. They really won't.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> No. They really won't.


*may* be more extreme. Most don't. Some might.


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## WaterGal (Jul 1, 2016)

Yeah, I agree with drop bear.  It's not about whether a program focuses on self-defense vs sport, it's about how intense they are in training either of those approaches. Serious sports training requires a good bit of conditioning, it just may mean doing ab exercises and suicide sprints and agility ladder drills, rather than doing knuckle pushups and conditioning your bones to withstand being hit.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jul 2, 2016)

Kickboxer101 said:


> Man do you have to promote your school or your teacher in every post I doubt that info is much use to the op


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jul 2, 2016)

I'm Not promoting anything im just proud of my Karate school Like everyone else im not here to say come joined my karate class im just here to to see whats the post is and reply to them why are you assuming im promoting all all I say is my instructor does FMA and his instrucctor is Guro dan innosanto nothing wrong with that he can go to any FMa in Usa.  well when i was new they ask me what style you do whats your lineage whose your instructor and were your studio so i tell them im not here to promote and ya im proud of my karate school and instructor and nothing wrong with it


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> rather than doing knuckle pushups and conditioning your bones to withstand being hit.


Conditioning and increasing bone density is an important factor when training martial arts for self-defense purposes. If a person's training doesn't include this then that person is going to run into situations where techniques can't be effective because of improper conditioning.  

For example, I wouldn't suggest that a person use a spear hand technique unless they have been conditioning their fingers in a way will allow them to use that technique without injuring themselves.   

Fight against someone who has proper conditioning and you soon discover that it's like fighting a person made of concrete.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, I agree with drop bear.  It's not about whether a program focuses on self-defense vs sport, it's about how intense they are in training either of those approaches. Serious sports training requires a good bit of conditioning, it just may mean doing ab exercises and suicide sprints and agility ladder drills, rather than doing knuckle pushups and conditioning your bones to withstand being hit.




Well... sort of...
Sport training needs to be focused on endurance and built around the ruleset being used.
Self defense training needs to be about short bursts, and the conditioning is an absolute must. Because you don't have pads to protect you.
Ask Mike Tyson. While he has never been an exemplary example of a fine human being, I doubt there are many who will deny his abilities as a boxer (and ear biter).
But what happened when he punched someone outside the ring? He broke his hand.


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## Tez3 (Jul 2, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well... sort of...
> Sport training needs to be focused on endurance and built around the ruleset being used.
> Self defense training needs to be about short bursts, and the conditioning is an absolute must. Because you don't have pads to protect you.
> Ask Mike Tyson. While he has never been an exemplary example of a fine human being, I doubt there are many who will deny his abilities as a boxer (and ear biter).
> But what happened when he punched someone outside the ring? He broke his hand.



Nacer Bouhanni, a French professional cyclist is missing the Tour de France this year because he got into a fight in a hotel and broke his hand. *He thought he could fight because he's also a kick boxer.* The consequences for him as one of his team's best sprinters is likely to be quite severe, a big loss of earnings for sure and perhaps his job, at least though it's only his hand, it could have been worse physically.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 2, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Nacer Bouhanni, a French professional cyclist is missing the Tour de France this year because he got into a fight in a hotel and broke his hand. *He thought he could fight because he's also a kick boxer.* The consequences for him as one of his team's best sprinters is likely to be quite severe, a big loss of earnings for sure and perhaps his job, at least though it's only his hand, it could have been worse physically.



Exactly. If you only train to hit things while wearing pads, then you better not hit things without those pads.
I encourage students early in their training to do bag work with limited force and wraps/gloves. Force is gradually increased, and protection is gradually decreased. Those who are training specifically for self defense are encouraged to aim for the goal of being able to strike full force without protection of any sort. Initially, I think a softer bag such as the WaveMaster is ideal. Later, I think something considerably firmer (and with anatomical targets) like BOB is better. Makiwara and breaking practice is also a good idea.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well... sort of...
> Sport training needs to be focused on endurance and built around the ruleset being used.
> Self defense training needs to be about short bursts, and the conditioning is an absolute must. Because you don't have pads to protect you.
> Ask Mike Tyson. While he has never been an exemplary example of a fine human being, I doubt there are many who will deny his abilities as a boxer (and ear biter).
> But what happened when he punched someone outside the ring? He broke his hand.


Punching without the gloves is not the same as punching without gloves.  Any weaknesses in a punch technique, wrist strength, and hand conditioning will come to light when punching without gloves.  I've seen guys who would pound a heavy bag like a monster, but almost break their wrist and scrape the skin off their knuckles when hitting the bag without gloves.


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## drop bear (Jul 2, 2016)

People break their hands while wearing gloves as well.  You shouldn't punch anything with poor technique. 

Punching a moving opponent is different to punching a stationary object. 

I saw this guy who did this thing.  Then he did that other thing and got hurt.


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## Buka (Jul 2, 2016)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> I'm Not promoting anything im just proud of my Karate school Like everyone else im not here to say come joined my karate class im just here to to see whats the post is and reply to them why are you assuming im promoting all all I say is my instructor does FMA and his instrucctor is Guro dan innosanto nothing wrong with that he can go to any FMa in Usa.  well when i was new they ask me what style you do whats your lineage whose your instructor and were your studio so i tell them im not here to promote and ya im proud of my karate school and instructor and nothing wrong with it



Stay proud, bro.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2016)

drop bear said:


> People break their hands while wearing gloves as well.  You shouldn't punch anything with poor technique.
> 
> Punching a moving opponent is different to punching a stationary object.
> 
> I saw this guy who did this thing.  Then he did that other thing and got hurt.


We do mobile pad training for the very reason that opponents move.  Punching a moving target requires much more coordination and body positioning than kicking or punching a heavy bag.


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Exactly. If you only train to hit things while wearing pads, then you better not hit things without those pads.
> .



Some more info  today watching Le Tour, not just a broken hand, there was stitches as well in which infection set in so quite nasty, C'est vraiment stupide de faire une chose pareille!


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Some more info  today watching Le Tour, not just a broken hand, there was stitches as well in which infection set in so quite nasty, C'est vraiment stupide de faire une chose pareille!



Punching someone in the mouth is a foolish move. It's not all the effective a target (although not everything that strikes the mouth was aimed at the mouth) and ends up in a lot of stitches and infections.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Punching someone in the mouth is a foolish move. It's not all the effective a target (although not everything that strikes the mouth was aimed at the mouth) and ends up in a lot of stitches and infections.


yep.. That's why tiger claw techniques from kung fu work the way they do.  It's the answer to how to hit someone in the face without messing up the hands from smashing someone in the mouth with a fist.


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## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> yep.. That's why tiger claw techniques from kung fu work the way they do.  It's the answer to how to hit someone in the face without messing up the hands from smashing someone in the mouth with a fist.



Or you can just not start fights.


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## JP3 (Jul 4, 2016)

This is going to sound terribly attitudinal and somewhat confrontational but I don't intend it that way, I am merely saying what I'm saying and not trying to make a point.

If you can find yourself a Tomiki-ryu Aikido school (like my own or those with whom I know) you'll be able both to learn a art that it is terrible in its beuty and elegance... and it's ability to do mayhem to an opponent. I spend all day in class saying to people, "We do it this way in kata so we don't hurt our partner, the street-do version is... right... here."

There is a squeak/squeal and we stop immediately so that someone can get themselves back in order, then we continue.

We regularly do in class our own version of sparring (I've been 25+ years in hapkido & taekwondo so I know hwat sparring is, and what it is for), and what we're doing in our classes is exactly sparring, though to the untrained eye it wouldn't look like it.  Anyone with 10 years in woul look at us and go, "Oh, yeah I see what they're doing there."

If you wanted a semi-competitive outlet, you can get it in the Tomiki system's randori tournaments, or in our subbranch of informal just "figure it out" informal sparring session stuff. It's a lot of fun, and can hurt people real bad, real quick just like any other MA.

We had a bad training accident in class last year, as it happens. Two guys, who should have known better, were going a bit too fast, using a bit too much power, and I *my fault* had turned around to speak to someone else, when I heard SNAP-snap... and I turned around to find one of my 1st degree black belt student standing over  a brown belt with eyeballs huge and bugging out of his head saying, "I didn't mean it! I didn't mean to ..."

He had broken the other student's tibula and fibula, simply because of a weird fall. Ambulance came, we picked him up and packed him on the cart, the whole thing.

Aikido is fun. It's dangerous as hell and the people who don't know... just don't know. I know there's lots of poo-poo patty-cake out there... but that's not aikido, out of the aikijutsu. There's some real bad mojo out there, trust me.

I guess you'd need to lay hands on me and mine to know, but that's OK. We welcome visitors and nay-sayers and doubters alike. As long as we can go train, we can go drink beers and there's no hard feeling after.


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## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2016)

JP3 said:


> "We do it this way in kata so we don't hurt our partner, the street-do version is... right... here."



We don't do it gently in kata, we do it the same way we do anything, as realistically as possible



JP3 said:


> He had broken the other student's tibula and fibula, simply because of a weird fall.



That happened at a seminar I was at and at an MMA fight night.


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## drop bear (Jul 5, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> yep.. That's why tiger claw techniques from kung fu work the way they do.  It's the answer to how to hit someone in the face without messing up the hands from smashing someone in the mouth with a fist.


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## WaterGal (Jul 5, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well... sort of...
> Sport training needs to be focused on endurance and built around the ruleset being used.
> Self defense training needs to be about short bursts, and the conditioning is an absolute must. Because you don't have pads to protect you.
> Ask Mike Tyson. While he has never been an exemplary example of a fine human being, I doubt there are many who will deny his abilities as a boxer (and ear biter).
> But what happened when he punched someone outside the ring? He broke his hand.



Both approaches are forms of conditioning, though.  "Conditioning" doesn't only refer to damaging your bones in order to make them stronger.  It's any kind of training regimen you do to make you stronger, faster, tougher.


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## WaterGal (Jul 5, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> We do mobile pad training for the very reason that opponents move.  Punching a moving target requires much more coordination and body positioning than kicking or punching a heavy bag.



Yeah, for sure.  A heavy bag is good for power or for getting your technique/footwork down just so, but you need the dynamic drill too.  One of my favorites is where the target holder is moving towards the person striking and they have to retreat and hit.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Or you can just not start fights.


lol.. well it's too late to learn the technique when the fight starts. So we learn it when we aren't fighting.  Pretty neat yes? Learn how to cause horrible pain when we are at peace so that we can do it without thought we are at war,  or in this case in a fight that may or may not come to reality.


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