# Ninja!



## Cryozombie (May 21, 2004)

What do you guys think???? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genbukan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinenkan


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## Don Roley (May 22, 2004)

> The current grandmaster of virtually all of the independant ninja schools is Hatsumi Masaaki, who is listed as a living national treasure of Japan.



No, he's not.


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## Cryozombie (May 22, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> No, he's not.



That site has a link to edit bad enntries i think... you should go fix it!


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## Don Roley (May 22, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> That site has a link to edit bad enntries i think... you should go fix it!



And when the next moron comes along, it will be right back to saying how the ninja used nunchaku.........  :idunno:


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## Cryozombie (May 22, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> And when the next moron comes along, it will be right back to saying how the ninja used nunchaku.........  :idunno:



True true...


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## Mon Mon (May 23, 2004)

What this i hear ninjas did not use nunchakus! Now i will suppose someone will tell me that ninja could not dissapear in a flash of light and had superhuman abilities.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 23, 2004)

Mon Mon said:
			
		

> What this i hear ninjas did not use nunchakus! Now i will suppose someone will tell me that ninja could not dissapear in a flash of light and had superhuman abilities.


Now, hold on everyone. I just watched Enter the Dragon last night, which _caught on tape_...proving...Bruce Lee was a Ninja, and he used nunchaku. Didn't he study with Hatsumi?


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## tshadowchaser (May 24, 2004)

First and formost I do not want to start any type of flame war with this question and I will lock this thread if the threads turns that way.
 Now I do not study Ninjitsu and have little knowledge of the clans, so I ask out of ignorence, How many clans (groups) are there that the Japanese goverment regonise as ligit?  How many different organisations are there in Japan claiming to teach this art?
 Please keep this disscussion friendly and informitve. I realise there may be different opions on the subject.


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## Cruentus (May 24, 2004)

I'd like to add to that question.

How many clans were there estimated to be in the past (don't have to be government recognized)?

Thanks!


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## sojobow (May 24, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I'd like to add to that question.
> 
> How many clans were there estimated to be in the past (don't have to be government recognized)?
> 
> Thanks!


Speaking only as a student with some experience identifiable with the Koga System, I believe that there were 50 "Families."  This is an estimate circa the 12th through 14th Centuries.  The date (time period) of when the "systems of Ninjitsu" were established can change this estimate from one single family to the estimated 50 Koga Families depending upon how one defines "when established."  The Date is in debate.

I am not sure, however, the number of "Clans" of the Iga.  There may have been 3 "Clans" during this same time period.  You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System.  There is a difference.  It will be interesting to see estimates from other schools represented here.


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## sojobow (May 24, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Now I do not study Ninjitsu and have little knowledge of the clans, so I ask out of ignorence, How many clans (groups) are there that the Japanese goverment regonise as ligit?  How many different organisations are there in Japan claiming to teach this art?QUOTE]
> 
> You ask two excellent questions. The answer, however, may be a lot more difficult to enumerate.  Some schools (in fact, quite a few) teach some type of combination of Ninjitsu and other styles/systems.  As an example, some may teach Kenjitsu along with Ninjitsu or Kenjitsu-Jujitsu-Ninjitsu.  I'm not sure if you want to include schools teaching (example again) 80 percent other arts and 20 percent Ninjitsu so someone researching to answer your questions will, most likely, have to have some clarifications from you regarding whether or not you wish to have information on all schools regardless the percentage of Ninjitsu included in there curriculums or whether you are only interested in those schools teaching 100 percent Ninjitsu.
> 
> ...


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## Don Roley (May 24, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Now I do not study Ninjitsu and have little knowledge of the clans, so I ask out of ignorence, How many clans (groups) are there that the Japanese goverment regonise as ligit?  How many different organisations are there in Japan claiming to teach this art?



The goverment does not really take sides per se in the issue anymore than the American goverment recognizes "legit" Karate styles in the states.

It would be perhaps better to ask what groups/orginizations/teachers are known to the Japanese.

Quite simply put, of all the "ninjutsu" groups on the internet the only ones that are known in Japan are the ones that link back to Hatsumi. Pick up a book on ninjutsu history in Japan and they will all say that the Koga ryu, etc, all died off a long time ago. Ask people like Frank Dux and Ashida Kim to prove they had a real teacher and you will get only excuses from them. The Japanese martial arts community knows of no one on the internet who trains in Japan.

Maybe there are folks in Japan training without telling anyone else. I know there are groups tring to revive and recreate some of the styles. They tend to be kind of like Star Trek fanatics with shuriken. But I see no reason why a person should keep Japan unaware of their existence while opening up dojos in North America if they actually came from Japan.

Maybe the guys who write books, make movies, have web sites, etc really do have a reason that relates to secrecy as to why they can not show proof that they actually had training. I doubt it. The simplest explination is that they are lying.

Historically, there were not many styles of ninjutsu when compared to sword styles. And the definition of "ninjutsu" is not set in stone like you may think. The Haguro sect of shugendo was pressured by the local warlord to pick up stories and information as they made pilgrimages through other territories. No mention in any source that they snuck around like they do in the movies- just picking up what they could as they walked through other regions. Some folks call them ninja, others do not. So it should not be surprising to hear that the list of schools is estimated at between about 75 to about twice that.

In some cases, schools that were in danger of dying out were absorbed by others, with their curriculum becoming a small part of the absorber. The need for ninjutsu really fell during the 200 plus years of peace in the Edo period. They still cut each other up with swords, but the number of people who seriously studied swordsmanship fell so much that there were frequent commands from the goverment for the samurai to keep up their practice. So the styles that were not absorbed (like the Togakure ryu seems to) just died out in a wimper due to lack of need or interest.

Again, no one outside of the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan are known as ninjutsu schools for more than one generation in Japan.


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## Cryozombie (May 25, 2004)

Hey Don,

I'm curious...

Do you know of any styles of Japanese martial arts outside of the Takamatsu-den that still teach (legitimately)  "Ninja" along with their regular curriculum, or is it pretty much relegated to the Bujinkan, genbukan, or jinenkan?


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## Don Roley (May 25, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Do you know of any styles of Japanese martial arts outside of the Takamatsu-den that still teach (legitimately)  "Ninja" along with their regular curriculum, or is it pretty much relegated to the Bujinkan, genbukan, or jinenkan?



There are schools like the Katori Shinto ryu who teach "ninjutsu" as part of their studies- but they would not be called a ninjutsu school. They would not appreciate the term either since what they do is not the same as a semi-specialty school like the Togakure. 

If I ever find another ninjutsu school outside of the Takamatsu den it would be a great find for comparison and contrast. I have many jujutsu, kenjutsu, etc tapes, have taken seminars and been to demonstrations of these schools just o see what else is out there. But I have yet to be able to do that with a "ninjutsu" school. At least one known in Japan and not the product of some fraud's imagination. Even the Katori Shinto ryu does not teach their version to anyone that has not trained for years AFAIK.

But if I ever do find one, please understand I may not give the name on line. I would probably tell several Bujinkan members and we could go see it and contrast it. But seeing how many people use Fujita Seiko as part of their made up lineage, it would be giving them too mcuh to let them know of a school they could claim to be part of in Japan.


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## tshadowchaser (May 25, 2004)

Interesting replys, thank you.
I am learning with each post.
         :asian:


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## tshadowchaser (May 25, 2004)

```
You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System.
```
Would someone enlighten me as to the difference?

 IS Hatsumi Masaaki recognised as a national treasure in Japan? If so would this not say that the goverment reconise his schools as ligit?


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## Don Roley (May 25, 2004)

Hatsumi is not a living national treasure. He did recieve a very respectable award from the Imperial Household Agency for his work in introducing an aspect of Japanese culture to people outside the country. There is a difference.

So you can say that he has won an award with a bit of investigation into him by the Japanese goverment. But Living National Treasures are very rare and Hatsumi s not one of them.


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## Frank Anford (Jun 1, 2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-kan

I didn't think that Bujinkan was an "X-Kan", I always thought that folks that left the Bujinkan were X-Kans.


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## sojobow (Jun 1, 2004)

> You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System. Would someone enlighten me as to the difference??



Very basic in that Koga's seemed to believe that the art is passed within direct family members.  Husband taught the two kids as the wife had already been taught by her father and mother.  No need of ranks as there is literally only father and mother = (teacher) and children = student.  On assignments, all 4 were one.  No need for Dojo's, organizations, institutions, certificates, etc.  Training started very shortly after birth and all training was hidden from the public.  The only "school" attended by a Koga was at the Yamabushi Temple -- something like going to church on Sundays unless you were adopted by the monks in which case, your 'family' included everyone at the Temples which was not uncommon.

Iga seemed to train and operate in a more "clan" relationship.  Your clan may have included every family in the general neighborhood thus your clan may have included 5 families, 10 families, in-laws, 3rd cousins, 2nd cousins, grandparents etc.  Thus, these 20 to 50 individuals would require organization, schools etc.  I'd rather those from the Iga side enlighten you on their system's development.

Each system seems to have produced some pretty good martial artist.  You can imagine the strengths and weaknesses inherent to each system but one thing of interest is that each system came together when called.

Hope this helps in some way.


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## Don Roley (Jun 2, 2004)

Sojobow,
I found your explination quite amusing. It reminded me of one of those bad ninja movies from Hong Kong. Care to give you sources so I can continue the laughter?

Who the heck are you quoting because no one seems to have asked the question in this trhead that you answered. It just seems you through that out to make a point and make yourself look like you know something and are an expert in it.

Of course, if you are embarassed to admit where you got it from, I will understand if you don't respond or give evasive answers.


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## sojobow (Jun 5, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sojobow,
> Who the heck are you quoting because no one seems to have asked the question in this trhead that you answered. It just seems you through that out to make a point and make yourself look like you know something and are an expert in it.



I do believe that my post specifies to whom I was responding.  But, as it seems you missed it, see tshadowchaser's 16th post which responded to a prior sojobow post.  It may also be more appropriate if you would attemt to answer tshadowchaser's inquiry.  It would be more helpful to him and others to answer their questions.  We'd all love to review your thoughts on the subject of the inquiry.  I know I would.


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## Don Roley (Jun 5, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> I do believe that my post specifies to whom I was responding.  But, as it seems you missed it, see tshadowchaser's 16th post which responded to a prior sojobow post.



The quote section is empty, and the remainder of the post is about Hatsumi.

So tell me, where exactly does the question, "You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System. Would someone enlighten me as to the difference?? " appear in this thread?

Oh yeah, and please give you sources for that explination about how things differed between Koga and Iga. You would not happen to be quoting from that noted incompetent fraud Frank Dux would you? I doubt anyone would trust him or a member of his orginization as a legitimate source about historical ninjutsu.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 5, 2004)

Don, I had asked the question. You should find it about 6 posts before your last one.
 If you have a different explanation, I would love to here it.
 I had asked why the Iga where called clans and the Koga families.
 Now with out mentioning Dux, which seems to be your favorite target to bash, please give a answerer. As for dux I believe we left that part of the discussion long ago, with all agreeing he has made some verry large claims he can not back up.


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## Don Roley (Jun 5, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I had asked why the Iga where called clans and the Koga families.



You might want to check on who was the one that said that the Koga used one term and the Iga another. I am having trouble recalling a Japanese source that makes that distinction. There is a lot of things like that spread on the internet by dubious folks such as Ashida Kim, Ron Collins, etc that  is not backed up in any Japanese source.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 6, 2004)

So are you saying that there is or should not be any distinction of terms given to the various groups?  
Another question is why have all of those groups that where classified as IGA  now completely (or so it seems) nonexistent  It seems that at least one or two should have survived in relatively the same manner as the Toga.  If there where so many groups do you think they all just stopped teaching what they knew and did?
 Im not trying to start anything with these question just trying to open intelligent discussion on the subject.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 6, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> If there where so many groups do you think they all just stopped teaching what they knew and did?



Actually that seems to have been largely the case: Most ninja ryuha -- and a lot of samurai ryuha as well -- seem to have died out through sheer lack of perceived need and interest. A lot of other Japanese arts, some of more recent origin, appear to be seriously struggling to survive in the land of their birth simply because the younger generations can't be bothered with such things.

In the mid-'70s, Hatsumi sensei's school consisted of himself and a small handful of students. It's now grown worldwide, but even in Japan today there are vastly more foreigners training than Japanese.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 6, 2004)

That is indeed a sad note.  One could only hope hat the youth of a country try to keep its past alive through the study of its arts, martial arts included.


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## Don Roley (Jun 6, 2004)

Just to add on to what Dale said, here is somethign that will give you an idea of just how few arts survived past the time they were needed as battlefield arts.

I have sitting on my lap a book called the _Bugei Ryuha Daijiten._ It is a book where the author tried to list every art he could find in any historical reference. Now, the amount of Koryu (pre- modern era arts) still existing is not high, maybe about 2 or at most 300. Opening up a page at random I see on page 454 that 17 arts are listed. Take that as a standard and realize the last page of listings is 922.

Obviously, the old arts died off almost in as great a number as the dinosaurs. And out of all those schools, there was not even maybe 200 ninjutsu schools. And while the samurai still wore swords in the Edo period and thus the need for sword schools still existed, once the nation was unified under the Tokugawa, the need for battlefield spies just plummeted.

It is sad that so much died out. There seems to be about two generations between "grandma's old junk" a "valuable antique."


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## sojobow (Jun 8, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> So are you saying that there is or should not be any distinction of terms given to the various groups?
> Another question is why have all of those groups that where classified as IGA  now completely (or so it seems) nonexistent  It seems that at least one or two should have survived in relatively the same manner as the Toga.  If there where so many groups do you think they all just stopped teaching what they knew and did?
> I&#8217;m not trying to start anything with these question just trying to open intelligent discussion on the subject.



I, for one, appreciate your efforts in opening intelligent discussion.  On your platform, I'd like to interject the following:

What Mr. Seago posted above is historically accepted in the general Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu community.

*"Actually that seems to have been largely the case: Most ninja ryuha -- and a lot of samurai ryuha as well -- seem to have died out through sheer lack of perceived need and interest......"*

Also, Mr. Roley's addition to Mr. Seago's post seems also acceptable, i.e.,:

*"Just to add on to what Dale said, here is somethign that will give you an idea of just how few arts survived past the time they were needed as battlefield arts..

I have sitting on my lap a book called the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. It is a book where the author tried to list every art he could find in any historical reference....."*

If I might interject a detailed thought that may also assist in our understanding of the subject(s). Hopefully, you can follow my logic scenario:

Both Mr. Seago and Mr. Roley use the term "Ryuha."   The term "Ryu," also called "nagare" in Japanese, comes from the Chinese kanji character pronounced something like "roo."  Basically, it means "school."  Japanese purist will also define "ryu" as a system of martial arts that can be traced all the back to its original founder (lineage).  Thus, Joe Blow Ryu (JBR) is a school that can be traced all the way back to Joe Blow.  It (JBR) is also taught and practiced in the same form today as Joe Blow did way back when.

Now, lets use Mr's. Seago and Roley's use of the term "Ryuha or Ryu-ha."  A Ruyha is basically a school/system  that is considered a variation of the ryu (a part of a part).  Usually the off-spring of a student/disciple who has developed some type of variation that is usually different from the original ryu, but it still retains most of the basic characteristic.  Note that the Ryu-ha, thus, will have a different lineage than the original JBR.

Note also that Mr. Roley mentions the 922 page Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.  Note also that the title IS *NOT* "Bugei *Ryu* Daijiten." It is an excellent reference manual developed by the two authors and like any other reference manual, entries are constantly being updated in that some of the schools/ryu-ha named within may be withdrawn, deleted, added, modified etc.

If I (anyone - not referencing sojobow so relax) was taught Ninjitsu by an individual (father) and did not learn my Ninjitsu from a school enumerated in this book, I exist nontheless.  I do not cease to exist because I never wished to start a school/Ryu or made sure that my name was listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten..  I simple wished to pass my own system (Ryu and not Ryu-ha) to my direct family (sons/daughters) or someone else I thought worthy of receiving this knowledge as was the norm within the Koga community.

Forgive me for mentioning that the term "Ryu" in Japanese originated from the Chinese.  It seems this relationship is not very popular to many.  However, the Chinese connection, as well as my own school, exist nonetheless.


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## Cruentus (Jun 8, 2004)

sojobow,

Your commentary is either just speculation, or an attempt to legitimize yourself without having to trace your lineage to Bujinkan, or through any other verifiable source.

If you claim "joe blow ryu" and say it is your family style, no one will argue legitimacy per say (but they may say your style sucks if they believe it does, or may argue if your claims about your style are outlandish). But, if you claim "Ninjitsu" as your style, then you had better have some evidence to back up the idea that your style traces back to Japanese Ninjitsu, otherwise your misleading.

Can a ninjitsu player tell me if I am out of line here?

 :asian:


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## Dale Seago (Jun 8, 2004)

You're not out of line at all. I'll let Don go into more detail, but Sojobow is -- not for the first time -- misusing the Japanese language to construct a false argument.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 9, 2004)

Yeah, you know, Tulisan, the way I look at it all...

If i studyed, I dunno... say, Greco-roman Wrestling, 

and decided to call it "Horizontal TaeKwonDo" 

It wouldnt really matter.  But some sap looking to learn TaeKwonDo might be either disapointed, or look really really stupid when he entered a TaeKwonDo competition...

It's kinda a shady practice.


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## Don Roley (Jun 9, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> You're not out of line at all. I'll let Don go into more detail, but Sojobow is -- not for the first time -- misusing the Japanese language to construct a false argument.



What, and let him go off and pretend to be an expert by parroting what I write later on? He has already gone on about how there is a differnce between the "clans" of Iga and the "Families" of Koga, (or is it vice versa.) And he just posted a question indicating he does not even know if the Iga and Koga ninja were Eta or not.

This is like someone going on in a holier-than-thou- attitude about the ways things were fought at the Alamo, and then asking if Davy Crocket was caucasian.

Dale is right, Sojobow knows nothing about the subject matter and only pretends to be an expert when he thinks he can get away with it. Ignore what he says unless he can give you an independent source you can look up for yourself, which he never does.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 9, 2004)

Gentelmen please lets keep to the subject and not to the personalities of each other.
 This thread has had some good posts and a number of "attacks on the individual" type of posts lets keep the good posts comeing.
 with that in mind I will wander a little maybe with this question: How or which words where misused (
	
	



```
misusing the Japanese language to construct a false argument.
```
 .) and what is the correct meaning  and/or words?


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## Don Roley (Jun 9, 2004)

tshadowchaser,
For some reason I can not read the section you are trying to quote. All I see is an empty box.


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## Don Roley (Jun 10, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> You're not out of line at all. I'll let Don go into more detail, but Sojobow is -- not for the first time -- misusing the Japanese language to construct a false argument.



Ok, Dale sent me a note saying that the above is basically what tshadowchaser was quoting.

So what words is Sojobow misusing? Just about every single one.

His saying that there should be a book called the Bugei "ryu" jiten since the source I cited would only cover ryuha, which are different from ryu is just plain out wrong. Hysterically wrong to tell the truth.

Strange, I find Katori Shinto _ryu_ in it, not Katori Shinto _ryuha_.

Ryuha is just the overall catch phrase for the systems of transmisions. The book has every martial art the author was able to find reference to. Arts like the Ono-ha Itto ryu, Shindo Muso ryu, Togakure ryu, etc.

Or let us take a look at his statement,



> Forgive me for mentioning that the term "Ryu" in Japanese originated from the Chinese. It seems this relationship is not very popular to many. However, the Chinese connection, as well as my own school, exist nonetheless.



This almost made me laugh so hard my beer came out of my nose. It seems that Sojobow has read a few things I have written in the past and tried to recycle them as his own to make himself look good. I remember writing somewhere about ryu/ nagare, but it seems that Sojobow really did not understand the full picture before trying to pass himself off as knowedgable.

And one thing I hate is people spreading false information on the internet without knowing the full picture. To do so in an attempt to create a false argument and cover your lack of proof is unforgiveable in my book.

You see, the Japanese took their written language from the Chinese- kind of. The same charecters sometimes have different meanings than the original Chinese. And the combinations they use are very different in most cases. An example, Tienanman square in Japanese is Tenanmon. Very close. But the middle charecter "an" is also pronounced "yasui" in Japanese and means cheap/inexpensive. There is no such meaning in Chinese.

Oh, I still remember in college when my teacher wrote the charecters for "hand" and "paper" on the board and talked about how he loved to get one from his girlfriend. The two girls from Hong Kong laughed as hard as I do reading Sojobow's stuff. It turns out that while that combination means "letter" in Japanese, it means "toilet paper" in Chinese!

Ryu is the same way. I have never seen the term Ryu used to denote transmision in a Chinese art. I can see the charecters in Chinese works and have not seen the charecter ryu as it is used in Japanese. The term and its meaning is purely Japanese. So Dale is right on the mark about how Sojobow acts and how much he knows.


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## sojobow (Jun 10, 2004)

I agree with Tshadowchaser.  These are very interesting subjects for discussion.  sojobow personally, is not of interest to anyone I hope.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> This almost made me laugh so hard my beer came out of my nose. It seems that Sojobow has read a few things I have written in the past and tried to recycle them as his own to make himself look good. I remember writing somewhere about ryu/ nagare, but it seems that Sojobow really did not understand the full picture before trying to pass himself off as knowedgable.



I have read a total - grand total - of one (uno, 1) article written by Don Roley and he knows which one I speak of as I messaged him/posted to him that his "History" was good but that he should not purposefully hide information he may have direct knowledge of.  We all should try to build the dastabase of knowledge for fellow martial artist and not purposefully withhold information in order to try and expose others as unknowledgeable.  Many others have written on the subject of the differences in Ryu, Ryuha and Nagare.  *Don Roley was not one of my sources.*



> You see, the Japanese took their written language from the Chinese- kind of. The same charecters sometimes have different meanings than the original Chinese.



How so in this particular definition.  I see no difference in that, as you even agree, the Kanji the Japanese used is actually Chinese.  The use of the word "ryu" in both languages seem to be the same.  



> Ryu is the same way. I have never seen the term Ryu used to denote transmision in a Chinese art. I can see the charecters in Chinese works and have not seen the charecter ryu as it is used in Japanese. The term and its meaning is purely Japanese. So Dale is right on the mark about how Sojobow acts and how much he knows.



You misread my statement.  It would be most useful to all if you would simple answer Mr. Tshadowchaser's questions: ergo,

-----How, or which words were misused?;
-----and what is the correct meaning and/or words?

Saying that "just about every single one [word(s) are wrong]" seems a strange response.  I am the first to admit that I am no expert.  I, as well as all of my teachers live here in the USA.  I glean my information as most everyone does, I read and I practice (usually in English).  Since Ninjitsu is the most complicated Way I have ever encountered, I need all the help understanding the system as I can possibly get.  If I am incorrect, simply show me where and how my arguement scenerio is disjointed and I will be most happy to get on the right track.

Answering Tshadowchasers question will be of interest.  Maybe I should ask Sojobo.  He was there (smile).


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## Don Roley (Jun 10, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> I am the first to admit that I am no expert.



Stop right there Sparky.

You too have been trying to portray yourself as an expert.

Here is a test, what is your sources for what you wrote about the differences between the "clans" of Iga and the "Families" of Koga, or whatever the heck it was.

Go ahead. I am waiting and may answer your questions about all the errors you made when you deal with the question already on the table. You are too used to ducking questions when it is convinient and I asked that question a long time ago.


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## sojobow (Jun 10, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Stop right there Sparky.
> 
> You too have been trying to portray yourself as an expert.
> 
> ...



As per your request, I have just completed answering your post in the other thread (Discovery Channel I think).  As you keep a close eye on myself and my statements, I find it interesting that you consider my responding, out of courtesy to others posting on forums, as some type of dishonest portrayal.  After all, if others ask question and no one answers, I don't think these Forums would have any worth.  The objective is communal discussions.  I don't see how others on this and other Forums I post on would consider me, in the least, as an expert as both Mr. Seago and yourself constantly respond to every post I issue by reinforcing both of your beliefs that I have some type of mental disorder but you seem to rarely answer the questions asked by the individuals originating the discussions.

Should I now respond as Sparky or as sojobow?


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## gozanryu (Jun 10, 2004)

LOL, HeHeHe, guffaw. . some things never change. . . . though I cant prove that.


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## Elizium (Jun 10, 2004)

there is a part of the book of Stphen Hayes the secret art of the ninja, Hayes is saying what Sojobow has said about Koga albeit briefly.  But, the koga had ceased.  Unless they suddenly spring up and declare their Ryu, then it will be treated as a joke for all time.


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## heretic888 (Jun 10, 2004)

Errrrr....

I believe you are referring to "The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art". And, I don't recall anything even remotely similar to what sojobow has claimed being in that book.


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## Elizium (Jun 11, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Errrrr....
> 
> I believe you are referring to "The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art". And, I don't recall anything even remotely similar to what sojobow has claimed being in that book.


That is the right book as you say, I was posting after training and with it being midnight I was brain tired as well as body.

Well on page 25 in the first chapter it starts after a paragraph break:



> Historically, ninjutsu was a profession inherited by birth.  From infancy, the children of ninja families were conditoned to be constantly aware of things around them.  AS they grew up, they were gradually educated in the secrets and traditions of the  Ryu.  At age five or six, their play activities began to take the form of trianing exercises.  Games stressing balance and agility were introduced.  The children would walk atop narrow horizontal poles, run up inclined planks, and leap over tall shrubs.


That is from the book under the part called Training.  If this is correct then who is wrong, or are we all correct and the book is wrong.  I am only going by the fact of the book alone.  Not that I am condemning the people that have posted in this thread as wrong or as 100% correct, I am just stating the fact of the book and to settle (not inflame) the thread and sonjobow claim.


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

Elizium,

What is making us chuckle is Sojobow's comments about the differences between the Iga and Koga that he is claiming existed.

Your quote is accurate, but not related to the subject.


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## Elizium (Jun 11, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Elizium,
> 
> What is making us chuckle is Sojobow's comments about the differences between the Iga and Koga that he is claiming existed.
> 
> Your quote is accurate, but not related to the subject.


Mr. Roley, as you have my respect from the other BB e-budo, along with Mr. Severe, can you explain the relation to my quote from the book and that of sojobow so this matter can be laid to rest.:supcool:

thank you


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

Elizium,
Take a look at the 19th post in this thread by Sojobow and look at the quote you provided. As you can see, what you wrote does not contradict what he wrote, but the whole thing about how Iga worked in a more Clan type relationship than the Koga, the Koga sometimes went to Yamabushi temples (that is funny if you know the subject matter) and such the Sojobow wrote can not be covered in what you quoted. Nor, it seems, can he provide a source for something he claims if fairly common knowledge.


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## Elizium (Jun 11, 2004)

I will look into this a bit more deeply.  I guessed sojobow was talking out of a certian body orafice when he posted, but I will look again.


I like this thread.  It proves that some people are willing to help keep the history correct and not go into the pink bunnies with Uzi's realm of fantasy.

P.S. Like the reason for the edit on your post Mr. Roley :ultracool


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## heretic888 (Jun 11, 2004)

Ummm..... ok, now I'm confused.  :mst:

I still don't remember anything about Iga-den = "clans" and Koga-den = "families" being in Hayes' book.....


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## Cryozombie (Jun 11, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Ummm..... ok, now I'm confused.  :mst:
> 
> I still don't remember anything about Iga-den = "clans" and Koga-den = "families" being in Hayes' book.....



me either... can someone point out specifically what book and on what pages??

Thanks!


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## Don Roley (Jun 11, 2004)

Elizium said he would look into it. I think he just got carried along by Sojobow's misdirection and _thinks_ he read it. I owned all of Hayes' early books, and I do not remember it either. But Sojobow tends to sprinkle in a little bit of fact with the hookum he wants us to believe in order to make it sound more convincing.


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## sojobow (Jun 12, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> there is a part of the book of Stphen Hayes the secret art of the ninja, Hayes is saying what Sojobow has said about Koga albeit briefly.  But, the koga had ceased.  Unless they suddenly spring up and declare their Ryu, then it will be treated as a joke for all time.



This subject you bring up regarding *"Declare their Ryu"* seems the rule-of-the-day.  I've read a number of post in this thread stating that, unless one's Ryu links back to Hatsumi's schools, that Ryu is not legit.  Although usually it seems that this statement is made by a Bugi.  Also, that Koga "died out" and no longer exists (some say this untimely death took place hundreds of years ago - some say that last of the Koga died in a car accident back in the 60's.  In fact, we are hearing that *Fuji's entire leadership was in this car* so no one could have continued on the Koga side which seem very convenient to Buji marketing.

I have a couple of short questions:

1)  If a Koga Ryu or even a Ryu-ha would *"suddenly spring up and declare their Ryu,"* to whom *"exactly"* would this Koga Ryu have to submit this declaration too?;

2)  For what purpose would the Koga Ryu make this declaration?;

3)  To whom would this Ryu*"be treated as a joke for all time"* too (using your term)?;

4)  If a Ryu choses not to submit this declaration to whomsoever, what is the sanction?;

5)  Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)?  An entire lineage dating (some say dating back to circa 700 AD - some say even prior to 500 BC) back prior to the Clan wars; before the Shogun wars now is only represented by ONE SCHOOL or ONE INDIVIDUAL?;

6)  Who presented proof to you, since you seem to believe that all remnants of Tanaka are dead, that Koga Ninjitsu is dead and would you be so kind as to present this proof within this thread?   (If you don't have the proof, I'll take your word for it)

7)  In hand-to-hand combat, would you want to keep the back of your hands facing towards your opponent and if so, why so?

Thanx.  I, for one, will be anxiously awaiting *your* reply.


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## Don Roley (Jun 12, 2004)

Let me see if I can answer all of this distracting dribble.

1- Everyone who asked. Just like anyone who claims to have come up with a  cure for cancer has to prove it to anyone who asks and not blow them off. Potential customers.

2- so as to be taken seriously.

3- everyone.

4- treated as a joke for all time.

5- "Do you think that all the sightings of UFOs over the years are ALL false? So who are you to question the FACT that our cult has been contacted to save the earth by a race of devine extra terrestrials."

6- It is a doctor's responsibility to prove he graduated from a medical school before he practices medicine. NOT anyone else's responsibility to prove he is not.

7- it depends. Looking for a catch all answer in the subject of combat is a sure sign of a lack of knowledge about it.


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 12, 2004)

sojobow,

Do you fancy yourself a part of some lost Koga remnant or something?  I recall a particular Frank Dux Forum thread of yours that had a title like "sojobow Koga family" or somesuch.


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## sojobow (Jun 12, 2004)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> sojobow,
> 
> Do you fancy yourself a part of some lost Koga remnant or something?  I recall a particular Frank Dux Forum thread of yours that had a title like "sojobow Koga family" or somesuch.



No.  I find the martial art of Koga Yamabushi Ninjitsu and more particularly, Dux's Ryu being inclusive of other/addition war arts and sciences, extremely interesting (and complicated) as well as the subject of History in general (especially History relating to War arts and tactics).


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## Elizium (Jun 12, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Speaking only as a student with some experience identifiable with the Koga System, I believe that there were 50 "Families." This is an estimate circa the 12th through 14th Centuries. The date (time period) of when the "systems of Ninjitsu" were established can change this estimate from one single family to the estimated 50 Koga Families depending upon how one defines "when established." The Date is in debate.
> 
> I am not sure, however, the number of "Clans" of the Iga. There may have been 3 "Clans" during this same time period. You will note the use of the two different terms of "Clans" for the Iga System and "Families" for the Koga System. There is a difference. It will be interesting to see estimates from other schools represented here.


This quote seems to be misleading.  The first for me to doubt this is this part of the first sentance: " _"I believe that there were 50 "Families." _"  First off, name them so they can be looked up.  Second, to believe is to show evidence as circumspect.  This part of the sentance makes a claim without basis of fact.  As the paragraph continues : _The date (time period) of when the "systems of Ninjitsu" were established can change this estimate from one single family to the estimated 50 Koga Families depending upon how one defines "when established."_  Most schools can be traced to a certian area in time and location.

_I am not sure, however, the number of "Clans" of the Iga. There may have been 3 "Clans" during this same time period._ From what I gathered from the books Essence of Ninjutsu and  The Ninja and their sectret fighting art there seemed to have been more than 3 "Clans".  But this is only from 2 books written by 2 different people.

As for Sojobow's recent claim that if no ryu or school is not linked through history or lineage of teaching then it is not legit... I would say that you are wrong.  Ninjutsu came originally from India, through China and were settled in Japan.  From India came the fighting or first account of what could be called as ninja.  China added to this by Sun Tzu document treatise "The Art of War", then following the religious battles for China, they settled in Japan.  This is where Togakure Ryu stems from.  Over the years, schools such as Kukishin developed and from there offshoots of other schools began.  Even Takagi Yoshin Ryu had to come from somewhere.  But as documentation from the medievil period no longer exists and all densho are copied from the original the history is intact.  Any misfortune like what Sojobow described as the last, the scrolls will remain and be picked up again as a historical fighting system not as a real traditional /modern system.

these are my thoughts though, as I see this subject of the thread.


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## Shogun (Jun 12, 2004)

> I still don't remember anything about Iga-den = "clans" and Koga-den = "families" being in Hayes' book.....


Its cause there wasnt. I am a huge hayes fan. I have read all of his books and own of them. he is a great teacher (and author). what can I say? even if some beleive he is about the money, there comes a time in a Ninja's life when he/she needs retirement funds. maybe thats the Ninja way, huh? lol


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## heretic888 (Jun 12, 2004)

* Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)?*

A million?? *laughs*

You've got to be joking, right?? I doubt there was even a million _people_ located in that entire region of Japan.

Y'know, sojobow, it might help you a little if you spend less time researching "the ninja" and more time researching general Japanese history, anthropology, and sociology.


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## Elizium (Jun 14, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> 2) For what purpose would the Koga Ryu make this declaration?;


Recognition within the world and not be a McDojo like the one you are "training under".


			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> 3) To whom would this Ryu*"be treated as a joke for all time"* too (using your term)?;


Okay lets make this Seaseme Street style of explaining: Big Bird has a system that dates back to the 14th century.  Elmo wishes to learn.  Big Bird teaches.  Elmo becomes a ninja.  Big Bird is shot by the grouch from his trash can.  Elmo moves to another part of the country and sets up a dojo.  Along comes prospective student.  Student looks pleased.  Asks questions.  Answer is "oooh it is a secret, isn't that right Mr Goldfish" Mr. Goldfish thinks "go away, you are a muppet".  Prospective student asks questions regading system.  No one hears of it.  It then becomes dubious.  Emo disappears and lives in the mountians talking to birds, trees and his pet rock.  * Next week we shall learn the letter M &C and the long word Dojo*



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> 4) If a Ryu choses not to submit this declaration to whomsoever, what is the sanction?;


 There are none.  If a Koga system apears the we may wish to look at it and see if it is workable.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> 5) Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)? An entire lineage dating (some say dating back to circa 700 AD - some say even prior to 500 BC) back prior to the Clan wars; before the Shogun wars now is only represented by ONE SCHOOL or ONE INDIVIDUAL?;


 I will refer you to the answer given by another member



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> 6) Who presented proof to you, since you seem to believe that all remnants of Tanaka are dead, that Koga Ninjitsu is dead and would you be so kind as to present this proof within this thread? (If you don't have the proof, I'll take your word for it)


 was Tanaka dead, did not even hear of his illness.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> 7) In hand-to-hand combat, would you want to keep the back of your hands facing towards your opponent and if so, why so?
> 
> Thanx. I, for one, will be anxiously awaiting *your* reply.


 And what would you do?


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## sojobow (Jun 14, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> * Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)?*
> 
> A million?? *laughs*
> 
> ...


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## Don Roley (Jun 14, 2004)

A million people studying a style even over the period you trying to present is still a silly number.

And if there were more of these people haiding out, there should be some sort of proof.  A million people just do not do soemthing without something being written down or other physical evidence.


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## sojobow (Jun 14, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> Recognition within the world and not be a McDojo like the one you are "training under".
> 
> Okay lets make this Seaseme Street style of explaining: Big Bird has a system that dates back to the 14th century.  Elmo wishes to learn.  Big Bird teaches.  Elmo becomes a ninja.  Big Bird is shot by the grouch from his trash can.  Elmo moves to another part of the country and sets up a dojo.  Along comes prospective student.  Student looks pleased.  Asks questions.  Answer is "oooh it is a secret, isn't that right Mr Goldfish" Mr. Goldfish thinks "go away, you are a muppet".  Prospective student asks questions regading system.  No one hears of it.  It then becomes dubious.  Emo disappears and lives in the mountians talking to birds, trees and his pet rock.  * Next week we shall learn the letter M &C and the long word Dojo*
> 
> ...



I was actually trying to enter into a serious, honest dialoge with other Martial Artist.  Pardon me for asking.  Seems like not much can be learned in a Forum devoted to Ninjutsu other than a disertation on Big Bird and low-grade insults.  Guess I'll stick to Ninjitsu and Himitsu Kempo.

Later.


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## Elizium (Jun 14, 2004)

I used Seaseme Street as a metaphor.  Look again and think about what I am saying.


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## sojobow (Jun 14, 2004)

I shall try to answer the best I can from my own memory so, I'll most likely omit, misspell certain parts, but - lets seee:



			
				Elizium said:
			
		

> This quote seems to be misleading.  The first for me to doubt this is this part of the first sentance: " _"I believe that there were 50 "Families." _"  First off, name them so they can be looked up.



The "50 Families" is a number taken from general reading.  I do believe that my giving you 50 names would be of no use to you as I do know that some Family names will be omitted simply because they have ecpressed that they never want their names made public.  I can understand this as we do practice Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu and some degree of secrecy is part of the curriculum.  Few Koga throught history have participated in any formal "registration" programs.



> Second, to believe is to show evidence as circumspect.  This part of the sentance makes a claim without basis of fact.  As the paragraph continues : _The date (time period) of when the "systems of Ninjitsu" were established can change this estimate from one single family to the estimated 50 Koga Families depending upon how one defines "when established."_  Most schools can be traced to a certian area in time and location.



Making such claims without also displaying one's evidence has its purpose.  The date I referenced depends upon when you want to start as a begining and not I.  Personally, I have publically pronounced that I believe that Ninjitsu began with the initiation of the "Big Bang."  Thus, it would depend on your definition of "Ninjitsu" or "Ninjutsu."  Some others initiation date is with En-No-Goya, Tsun Tsu, The Shugendo, the Sohei, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Karumijutsu, Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu or Daisuke Nishina's Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu.  Thus, the debate on the "who" depends on you and what date you wish to proclaim was the initiation of the art.  



> _I am not sure, however, the number of "Clans" of the Iga. There may have been 3 "Clans" during this same time period._ From what I gathered from the books Essence of Ninjutsu and  The Ninja and their sectret fighting art there seemed to have been more than 3 "Clans".  But this is only from 2 books written by 2 different people.



I wouldn't disagree with your books.



> As for Sojobow's recent claim that if no ryu or school is not linked through history or lineage of teaching then it is not legit..



sojobow made no such claim.  Maybe you will re-organize the statement.  sojobow does, however, claim that all Koga Families did not belong to any "Clan" nor did they establish any "school" but that they would assist the Clan community when called or hired.  



> I would say that you are wrong.  Ninjutsu came originally from India, through China and were settled in Japan.  From India came the fighting or first account of what could be called as ninja.  China added to this by Sun Tzu document treatise "The Art of War", then following the religious battles for China, they settled in Japan.  This is where Togakure Ryu stems from.  Over the years, schools such as Kukishin developed and from there offshoots of other schools began.  Even Takagi Yoshin Ryu had to come from somewhere.  But as documentation from the medievil period no longer exists and all densho are copied from the original the history is intact.  Any misfortune like what Sojobow described as the last, the scrolls will remain and be picked up again as a historical fighting system not as a real traditional /modern system.
> these are my thoughts though, as I see this subject of the thread.



An example of common knowledge that we would most likely hear or read from the majority of Dojo today.  Very basic stuff.

Adding this:  Koga Families would at times accept assignments requiring them to *travel outside of Japan.*  I have seen no "LAW" that said that all Ninja assignments were performed INSIDE of Japan as most students take for granted.  Assignments might require them to travel to China, korea, Mongolia, the "Stans" (today's afganistan etc), India, Turkey.  I have looked (in no particular depth) at the battles of Khan in China and west to Turkey and the Balkins.  I see evidence of Ninjitsu techniques used in some of khan's battles.  I see evidence that some of "khans Messengers" had to be what we call "Ninja." If a Ninja family assisted Khan, that Ninja Family would have had to re-establish his family outside of Japan and whose to say his ancestors do no exist today in other parts of the world.  I have also looked at some of Attilla's battles and also see evidence of Ninja assistance which would mean that other families would have had to leave mainland Japan.  If this is true, we may all be limiting the scope of this martial system.


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## Elizium (Jun 14, 2004)

Hmmm So you are saying the the two books I have looked into written by Stephen K. Hayes and Masaaki Hatsumi are wrong?  If so then one of your posts must be wrong as I placed a direct quote from the Hayes book that said what you basically placed in a thread.  Mind you, you also went on to flavor the post with bits of fantasy too.


Also this about the Turks using ninjas in battle?  Where has this come from?  From what I gather in the Royal Armouries in Leeds UK, there is no evidence of the using ninjas.  Ninja has been a Japanese thing.  Maybe they used what looked like ninja techniques, but I doubt that ninjas would be present in the Middle East or China.  China locked all borders off to stop the influence of the outside contaminating their culture.  The great wall of China was built for this purpose also.  So if the ninjas were used than they would be classed as foreign invaders and dealt with if found.  China was a very difficult place to be in even for a "ninja".

IMO all countries had at one point a sort of ninja influence.  Assasins did not appear overnight by someone thinking "I know... let me kill this person for this reason by doing it this way".  Every country has had something along the lines of ninja, even America with the Rangers.

So I pour cold water onto your idea of ninjas outside of Japan.  They may have travelled, but I doubt they could be of any use due to linguistic difficulties.


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## sojobow (Jun 14, 2004)

I tried to find a short list I have on Iga Clan and Koga Family names but can't at the moment.  I do remember the Family names of Yagyu and Tanaka and an Iga Clan name of something like Oe that is on the lists.  I don't really study much about the Iga side as once I became confident that what the Iga's of today practice is a form that would exhibit some resemblance of Ninjitsu, I basically left the subject of their authenticity alone and really directed my limited energy to trying to understand Koga Yamabushi.   I don't pay much attention to Koryu as much as I do that of modern Ninjitsu as it exist today and specifically its modern battle tactics, channelling, spirituality and applications that will assist me in today's survival.  I'll find the list later today and add a couple more names for you to look up.  It's 4:30 AM and I starting to see Tengu peaking in my windows.

Tell me what you find when you look them up.

Peace!


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## Elizium (Jun 14, 2004)

Sojobow, I see that you are wanting to learn about history. Best thing to remember is that 9/10ths of all history is wrong in Japan. The Japanese were good at doing the Ministry of Truths (read George Orwell's book 1984). With history, everything is littered with acocunts favouring the people they were aligned to. Even the Lindesfarne papers of the Viking acocunts of massacre were tainted to the negative of the Vikings (even though the Vikins were not really savage or barbaric, they were the Swedish what did most of that, but the Vikings got tarred with the reputation and so history is remembered as Vikings barbaric)

A Yahoo search brought up this link that has 53 names or Ryu(?) from the Koga era. I guess many more are available, but search engines only take one page and make that available, not a collective website.

Anyways here is one link: 

http://www.bufuikan.com/kogaden.html

Have a look and see if this is any use.

Also remeber that most of the posters like Mr. Roley and Mr. Severe do know their history.  And I know of an 8th Dan that has researched extensive Japan history and Kata.  His knowledge is well known so much that on Kutaki.org he is talked about in reverence as the man that knows.  But as you have said, research is important and I will keep looking.


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## Don Roley (Jun 14, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Adding this:  Koga Families would at times accept assignments requiring them to *travel outside of Japan.*  I have seen no "LAW" that said that all Ninja assignments were performed INSIDE of Japan as most students take for granted.  Assignments might require them to travel to China, korea, Mongolia, the "Stans" (today's afganistan etc), India, Turkey.  I have looked (in no particular depth) at the battles of Khan in China and west to Turkey and the Balkins.  I see evidence of Ninjitsu techniques used in some of khan's battles.  I see evidence that some of "khans Messengers" had to be what we call "Ninja." If a Ninja family assisted Khan, that Ninja Family would have had to re-establish his family outside of Japan and whose to say his ancestors do no exist today in other parts of the world.  I have also looked at some of Attilla's battles and also see evidence of Ninja assistance which would mean that other families would have had to leave mainland Japan.  If this is true, we may all be limiting the scope of this martial system.



Do you want to cite your sources, or are you just going to let us treat what you write as the premis for a bad ninja movie?

Honestly, if you want us to take you seriously, you either have to back up what you write with facts and logic, or stop making such broad leaps of faith and presenting them as established facts.


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## heretic888 (Jun 15, 2004)

Ok, here's my take...

*I've read a number of post in this thread stating that, unless one's Ryu links back to Hatsumi's schools, that Ryu is not legit.*

Nope, but sorry. Its more of a matter that if a school cannot trace its origins back further to the current headmaster (such as Dux) --- and actually _prove_ he did not creat the art himself --- then its probably not legit. Hatsumi-soke can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he trained under Takamatsu. Dux cannot make the same claim regarding this mysterious "Tanaka" person.

And, even then, that's just a starting point. All that's proven is that the ninjutsu school is actually _Japanese_ in origin. After that, you actually have to go about and demonstrate that the school has really been around for so and many generations.

*Although usually it seems that this statement is made by a Bugi.*

I don't know what a "bugi" is.

*Also, that Koga "died out" and no longer exists (some say this untimely death took place hundreds of years ago - some say that last of the Koga died in a car accident back in the 60's. In fact, we are hearing that Fuji's entire leadership was in this car so no one could have continued on the Koga side which seem very convenient to Buji marketing.*

It also happens to be extremely convenient that that is _what actually happened_, too. Do a little research into the subject, fer crissakes.   

That's like saying that it just happens to be "convenient" for evolutionists that there is a fossil record, or "convenient" for heliocentrists that the earth is not the center of the universe.

*1) If a Koga Ryu or even a Ryu-ha would "suddenly spring up and declare their Ryu," to whom "exactly" would this Koga Ryu have to submit this declaration too?*

Anybody that they wanted to take their historical claims seriously. If they aren't interested in being taken seriously as a historical school, then they shouldn't worry about it.

*2) For what purpose would the Koga Ryu make this declaration?*

To prove they are not talking out of their asses with their historical claims.

*3) To whom would this Ryu"be treated as a joke for all time" too (using your term)?*

Anyone interested in the historical claims of the ryu, which would probably be a large number of martial artists.

*4) If a Ryu choses not to submit this declaration to whomsoever, what is the sanction?*

They will be regarded as a "joke for all time" by those that are interested in the history.

*5) Do you honestly believe that a system once practiced by more that 1 million individuals was reduced to only enough individuals to be killed in a car (6 seater)?*

Yes. And it was not practiced by more than 1 million people during its entire history --- let alone any single time. And, again, it is still questionable whether Fujita was actually the inheritor of a real ninjutsu ryuha or not in the first place.

*An entire lineage dating (some say dating back to circa 700 AD - some say even prior to 500 BC) back prior to the Clan wars; before the Shogun wars now is only represented by ONE SCHOOL or ONE INDIVIDUAL?;*

Clan wars?? Shogun wars?? Geez, man, where are you getting your historical terms from --- a roleplaying game??  

In any event, any "lineage" that dates back to 700 CE should be suspect in and of itself.

*6) Who presented proof to you, since you seem to believe that all remnants of Tanaka are dead, that Koga Ninjitsu is dead and would you be so kind as to present this proof within this thread? (If you don't have the proof, I'll take your word for it)*

You can't prove a negative, silly.

*7) In hand-to-hand combat, would you want to keep the back of your hands facing towards your opponent and if so, why so?*

Depends on the situation.

*The "50 Families" is a number taken from general reading.*

I believe the exact numbers people are referring to are the 53 families of Koga, and the 45 families of Iga (which Hatsumi-soke actually lists at the end of _Essence of Ninjutsu_). I've seen these numbers referred to in other sources, as well.

*Making such claims without also displaying one's evidence has its purpose. The date I referenced depends upon when you want to start as a begining and not I. Personally, I have publically pronounced that I believe that Ninjitsu began with the initiation of the "Big Bang." Thus, it would depend on your definition of "Ninjitsu" or "Ninjutsu." Some others initiation date is with En-No-Goya, Tsun Tsu, The Shugendo, the Sohei, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Karumijutsu, Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu or Daisuke Nishina's Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. Thus, the debate on the "who" depends on you and what date you wish to proclaim was the initiation of the art.*

On the basis of those flimsy criteria, when I'm sneaking up on my cat in the morning, then I'm practicing "ninjutsu". This is just silly --- nobody even referred to groups of individuals as shinobi until around the 1400's. Dating it back to En no Gyoja or Prince Yamato Takeru is a slippery slope, to say the least.

*sojobow made no such claim.*

Sojobow also needs to learn to speak in the first person.   

*Adding this: Koga Families would at times accept assignments requiring them to travel outside of Japan.*

Prove it. Cite some sources.

*I have seen no "LAW" that said that all Ninja assignments were performed INSIDE of Japan as most students take for granted.*

I have seen no "law" that said that American colonials were not used in Korean wars at the time, either. Doesn't mean it really happened.

*I have looked (in no particular depth) at the battles of Khan in China and west to Turkey and the Balkins. I see evidence of Ninjitsu techniques used in some of khan's battles. I see evidence that some of "khans Messengers" had to be what we call "Ninja." If a Ninja family assisted Khan, that Ninja Family would have had to re-establish his family outside of Japan and whose to say his ancestors do no exist today in other parts of the world. I have also looked at some of Attilla's battles and also see evidence of Ninja assistance which would mean that other families would have had to leave mainland Japan. If this is true, we may all be limiting the scope of this martial system.*

*laughs* Okay, now this is just getting down-right nutty.

Human beings have been using "sneaky" tactics for a long, long time. Your notion that every "sneaky-doer" in the world is a "ninja" is beyond inane. Its utterly unbelievable that any sane human being could believe something of that sort. Its like calling anybody that's ever used a sword a "samurai", or that anybody that's ever thrown a punch is doing "karate".

If you're going to discuss history, then limit your terminology to historical terms and not these wacky personal definitions you've invented.

Laterz.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 15, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Ok, here's my take...
> 
> That's like saying that it just happens to be "convenient" for evolutionists that there is a fossil record,
> 
> Laterz.



Always gotta bring that one up dontcha!


----------



## sojobow (Jun 16, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> Hmmm So you are saying the the two books I have looked into written by Stephen K. Hayes and Masaaki Hatsumi are wrong?  If so then one of your posts must be wrong as I placed a direct quote from the Hayes book that said what you basically placed in a thread.  Mind you, you also went on to flavor the post with bits of fantasy too.
> 
> Also this about the Turks using ninjas in battle?  Where has this come from?
> 
> ...




Your paragraph 1:
This is my quote:  "I *wouldn't disagree* with your books."  Thus, I am *not* saying that your quotes were wrong.  I noticed your post which kind of took Mr. Roley aback as his, and another's, 'memory' was challenged.

Your paragraph 2 et al:
 I never said the "Turks" used Ninjitsu in battle so, I would also like to know where it came from.  The remainder of this paragaraph could possibly by explained by covert behavior and or service contracts.

Minor points:

 - If a person has a special talent, the Khans took them and used them.  The Mongols under Khan also invaded  Japan.

 - Keeping the Khans OUT of China was also a reason for the building of the Great Wall as the Mongol invasions numbered more than 1.  In fact, the Mongols ruled China for a short period of time.

 - Japan was "Open," then "closed," then "opened" again.

Your statement: "Every country has had something along the lines of ninja, even America with the Rangers." - may be more prolific than you express.  This statement is also (which I totally agree) a point maybe misunderstood by many as all Ninjitsu is not Japanese.  The term/word may be Japanese but the martial art was practiced outside of Japan before, during and after the period commonly referred to in Japanese history.

If we define Ninjitsu or Ninjutsu by what the martial art consist of rather than the kanji of Nin, the picture and history of the martial art expands.

But again, my interest is in what the martial art consisted of before its entry into Japan, what was incorporated by the Japanese and other Countrys during the same period of time, what was then incorporated  when or as represented outside of Japan and, most important, the martial art's effectiveness today.  It has been well documented that the effectiveness of this martial art in 1500 AD is  minimal compared to today's modern martial art of Ninjitsu. A horse-drawn carriage versus a 'vett.


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## sojobow (Jun 16, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Do you want to cite your sources, or are you just going to let us treat what you write as the premis for a bad ninja movie?
> 
> Honestly, if you want us to take you seriously, you either have to back up what you write with facts and logic, or stop making such broad leaps of faith and presenting them as established facts.



Show me.


----------



## Elizium (Jun 16, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Show me.


Please, you show us where your information is from.  It may help you in this discussion.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> Assignments might require them to travel to China, korea, Mongolia, the "Stans" (today's afganistan etc), India, Turkey. I have looked (in no particular depth) at the battles of Khan in China and west to Turkey and the Balkins.


Then what conclusions you can give to say that the Ninja were there?  Is it me or did the Mongols go through the East from 530+AD where the ninja came into the fold around 1400AD?  Give or take 100 years either side of the dates.  History was never my strongpoint.


----------



## sojobow (Jun 16, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Elizium,
> 
> What is making us chuckle is Sojobow's comments about the differences between the Iga and Koga that he is claiming existed.
> 
> Your quote is accurate, but not related to the subject.



I know what you're gonna say:  These guys don't count.  But it does seem that they also see some differences between Iga and Koga as do I as I expressed above and in other threads.  I still am more interested in the Techniques used versus who is who.  Hopefully, you have some sources that back up your side.  Post 1.  A Soke in Canada?????? Heard this before somewhere????????????
========================================================

9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu

During the Feudal Age of Japan, in the Koga Province of Japan, there were many ninja clans (Ryu-ha) The Koga Ryu was made up of many small secretive family groups. Most of the families in the Koga Ryu were decendents of the Yamabushi, mountain warrior priests, while others were decendents of Ronin, masterless Samurai, much like modern mercenaries.

The Koga Ninja used a deception of creating false groups within the same area. These false groups would appear to challenge, or be the enemy of the Koga Ryu. Because the Koga Ryu appeared small and unimportant, they weren't considered to be a great threat, unlike the Iga Ninja.

The Iga ninja were counterparts to the Koga Ninja. The Iga Ryu used the opposite strategy of the Koga Ryu. The Iga Ryu appeared much larger than they really were, which is a Ninja strategy to forestall an attack, which worked against them later on when Oda Nobunaga attacked them in 1581 for a second time. It is said that Nobunaga's son, Katsuyori, when defeated in 1579 by the Iga Ninja, he was lead to beleive that the Iga Ninja were four times the size they thought they were.  

In 1581 Oda Nobunaga attacked the Iga ryu Ninja again. this time however Nobunaga himself lead the attack against the Iga Ninja. Nobunaga's attack out numbered the Iga Ryu nearly by 10 to 1. Against not only Samurai but, expert marksmen, the Iga Ninja even with aid from the Koga Ryu hadn't a chance.

The Koga Ryu not suffered the same fate as the Iga ryu. Managed to escape the sword hunts, somewhat intact. During the period known as the Tokugawa Shogunate. The Iga Ninja under Jonin / Soke Hanzo Hattori was organized into secret police and spies. Many Ninja clans disbaned into laboureus, goverment positions and found jobs within the Yakuza (Japanese Mafia) So many beleived that the Ninja broke up forever, unknown and that a few families went undergraound. Passing the way of Ninjutsu down to the next generation.

After WWII the world was open to the Ninja. free to travel and escape their own country's confines. In the 1960's a small group of Koga Ninja emigrated from Japan to the Canadian Rocky Mountains. The leading members of the group were either businessmen or professionals (yakuza, Military or Police) In the late seventies their Soke (Grandmaster) died leaving his duties to his son.

By 1985 Soke Toshitora Yamashiro, son of the former Soke had quietly set up several dojo's in Canada and sixteen small training centers in the U.S.A.

We refer to ourselves as the,
9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu
Kevin Brian Wright


----------



## Elizium (Jun 16, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> I know what you're gonna say: These guys don't count. But it does seem that they also see some differences between Iga and Koga as do I as I expressed above and in other threads. I still am more interested in the Techniques used versus who is who. Hopefully, you have some sources that back up your side. Post 1. A Soke in Canada?????? Heard this before somewhere????????????
> ========================================================
> 
> 9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu
> ...


 Seems likely but can it be verified 100%.  The Yakuza are open in a way and can be asked.  But they are Yakuza and their name has been banded about just like the Mafia.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> After WWII the world was open to the Ninja. free to travel and escape their own country's confines. In the 1960's a small group of Koga Ninja emigrated from Japan to the Canadian Rocky Mountains. The leading members of the group were either businessmen or professionals (yakuza, Military or Police) In the late seventies their Soke (Grandmaster) died leaving his duties to his son.
> 
> By 1985 Soke Toshitora Yamashiro, son of the former Soke had quietly set up several dojo's in Canada and sixteen small training centers in the U.S.A.
> 
> ...


To me this sounds far fetched.  If a group were there in the mountians, would the local police have had suspition as in the 1960's the communist threat were present.  A group like this would be subject to not only Canadian police but the Americans as well.  Between Alaska and Mainland USA is Canada, they wuuld have attracted the eyes of the local law enforcement.

Just my views.


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 16, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> By 1985 Soke Toshitora Yamashiro, son of the former Soke had quietly set up several dojo's in Canada and sixteen small training centers in the U.S.A.
> 
> We refer to ourselves as the,
> 9 Shadows Of Koga Ryu
> Kevin Brian Wright



_This_ is your source for the stuff you have been writting?

People have been asking to prove the existence of this guy Toshitora for years. He is about as beliavable as the story of Frank Dux's teacher with just as much of a lack of proof and weirdness about what he says and how it contridicts known facts in Japan.

The stuff this guy writes is just plain silly with NO facts to back it up. Kind of like Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan or any of the guys who have schools, web pages, articles, videos, etc, but pull out the "secrecy" card when proof that they did not make it all up is asked for.


----------



## MisterMike (Jun 16, 2004)

What is it with the Koga ryu representatives that people are generally upset with?

False claims of lineage?
Historical innacuracies?

Was it really over in the 60's after a car accident?

Does anyone know where different Koga region lineages may be archived? It seems to be rather mysterious.

Thanks,


----------



## Jay Bell (Jun 16, 2004)

Lying.


----------



## sojobow (Jun 17, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> _This_ is your source for the stuff you have been writting?
> 
> People have been asking to prove the existence of this guy Toshitora for years. He is about as beliavable as the story of Frank Dux's teacher with just as much of a lack of proof and weirdness about what he says and how it contridicts known facts in Japan.
> 
> The stuff this guy writes is just plain silly with NO facts to back it up. Kind of like Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan or any of the guys who have schools, web pages, articles, videos, etc, but pull out the "secrecy" card when proof that they did not make it all up is asked for.



Wrong again my friend!

I only found Toshitora's website information earlier today and posted it for Tshadowchaser and yourself.  As I mentioned in the first sentence: you would say that those guys don't count and this is exactly your defense.  There is/was an acute difference between the Koga and Iga fighting styles, religion, and philosophies.  I see no proof to the contrary. You also seem antagonistic against anything I say so it may be of some use to you to find out that there are others in this world that just might have and express similar thoughts as those I suggest.

Something like:  Those in the know - know.


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 17, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> There is/was an acute difference between the Koga and Iga fighting styles, religion, and philosophies.  I see no proof to the contrary.




Of course, you have no proof to back up what you say about the differences. But I can point to the fact that the Iga and Koga were frequently on the same side, Iga and Koga  were just next to each other, the Iga documents talked about their ties to the Koga in the north, they both used the Bansenshukai, etc.

So much for your proof that there were differences.




			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> You also seem antagonistic against anything I say so it may be of some use to you to find out that there are others in this world that just might have and express similar thoughts as those I suggest.
> 
> Something like:  Those in the know - know.



I am antagonistic to you because you spread so much stuff you know to be false just for some advantage. You take the tone that you know something, until you are caught not knowing the first thing about the subject matter, and then you whine that you never were trying to be an expert and would someone please help you understand the truth about things like the Eta. When the heat is off, you go right back to your old tricks of trying to appear to know what you are talking about even as what you write causes me to fall off my seat laughing. You slander people I respect like Dale Seago and support a guy like Frank Dux who sullied the uniform of the United States with his false claims and attacks on the institutions that dared say that he was lying about his relationship with them.

Just recently, you tried to portray the ninjas as operating outside of Japan. This is probably your latest strategy to try to make it sound like even though there is no proof or supporting evidence to what you say in Japan, maybe you can convince people that the ninja tradition you claim to have sprung from transmitted itself to China. When asked for proof, you ignored it. Just like you have ignored demands for proof of what you have written here. You even went on to say that the Mongols used people from every country they invaded, and that they invaded Japan so that is where the ninja could have made the journey from Japan to China.

Except, the Mongols never conquered Japan. They never even got far off the beaches before they were beaten back in two invasion attempts and a devine wind destroyed their fleets. (Oh yes, that is why the Japanese came up with the term "kamikaze/ devine wind" for their last desperate attempt to stop the allied invasion.)

You spread all this bad information and poison the pool of knowledge out there all for your own gain and then expect people to treat you with respect? When you say something false, you probably will get laughed at for it. When you knowingly lie for the gain of your school, you are not going to make many friends.

MisterMike, does this answer your question about why people are antagonistic towards those claiming to be Koga? If you want an honest, documented account of the Koga ryu go to www.Jigokudojo.com and look for an article by me in the article section.


----------



## MisterMike (Jun 17, 2004)

Yes, pretty much. Thanks for the link - I'll be checking it out today. 

:asian:


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## heretic888 (Jun 17, 2004)

*I only found Toshitora's website information earlier today and posted it for Tshadowchaser and yourself. As I mentioned in the first sentence: you would say that those guys don't count and this is exactly your defense. *

*laughs* The reason those guys "don't count" is because, like Dux, Hunter, Lung, Duncan, et al, they don't have any evidence or proof to back up their claims.

Don is right, y'know. Its really stupid and ridiculous when guys who write books, have movies made about them, have mini-mall dojos, and scores of websites --- all of a sudden claim a need for "secrecy" or "hidden identities" of so-and-so Sensei when they are asked for proof and evidence of their training. Especially when there's so much counterevidence for their claims to be had (like the use of "dim mak" in a Japanese art, or Dux's stealing of the title of "shidoshi" from the Bujinkan).

Laterz.


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## Enson (Jun 17, 2004)

I have read everyones response carefully. mostly everyone here knows or pretends to know more than the other. it sounds like some have deep issues they need to work out, but thats neither here nor there.
let me just submit something. i don't plan on arguing just want to ask a question.
question: it is supposed that dr. hatsumi is the last surviving real ninja. now some have said that there are ancient scrolls and stuff that relate that. that i wouldn't know because i have never seen ancient scrolls. (sounds like a rit on beverly hills ninja) that was a joke. i hope everyone can still take jokes. it is also supposed that dr. hatsumi learned from takamatsu. (i hope i got that right). how do we know takamatsu wasn't doing his own thing? even if he was ninja... how do we know he as the best of the best? (excuse the cliche) what if he was kicked out because he sucked? what if the whole bujinkan thing is one big farse? i mean mostly everyone here is ready to bash all koga but what if the togakure is fake? the biggest scam in history? don't get me wrong! i'm not saying it is, but what if takamatsu did his own thing like bruce lee? no one can say bruce lee wasn't good, but i read from james demile that he only trained in wing chun for a year. then he goes and creates a whole style based on it. now what about those who teach jkd? are they all fakes besides dan insanto and his original students? from what i understood sk hayes is the only one that got the right to bring and teach buginkan anyway.(i could be wrong on that) i mean someone actually said that 9/10ths of japanese history is fake. if thats the case all bujinkan, genbukan, klingan could be fake. (another joke) what i'm trying to say is does it really matter? does it make you a better warrior? judge a man for what he can do not for what his name is. sounds like racism to me. if i claim to be a ninja... let my works show me to be true not my title. 
just some food for thought


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## MisterMike (Jun 17, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> *laughs* The reason those guys "don't count" is because, like Dux, Hunter, Lung, Duncan, et al, they don't have any evidence or proof to back up their claims.



Just curious, have you talked to O'sensei Duncan about his lineage or know anyone who has?


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 17, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> question: it is supposed that dr. hatsumi is the last surviving real ninja. now some have said that there are ancient scrolls and stuff that relate that. that i wouldn't know because i have never seen ancient scrolls. (sounds like a rit on beverly hills ninja) that was a joke. i hope everyone can still take jokes. it is also supposed that dr. hatsumi learned from takamatsu. (i hope i got that right). how do we know takamatsu wasn't doing his own thing? even if he was ninja... how do we know he as the best of the best? (excuse the cliche) what if he was kicked out because he sucked? what if the whole bujinkan thing is one big farse? i mean mostly everyone here is ready to bash all koga but what if the togakure is fake? the biggest scam in history? don't get me wrong! i'm not saying it is, but what if takamatsu did his own thing like bruce lee? no one can say bruce lee wasn't good, but i read from james demile that he only trained in wing chun for a year. then he goes and creates a whole style based on it. now what about those who teach jkd? are they all fakes besides dan insanto and his original students? from what i understood sk hayes is the only one that got the right to bring and teach buginkan anyway.(i could be wrong on that) i mean someone actually said that 9/10ths of japanese history is fake. if thats the case all bujinkan, genbukan, klingan could be fake. (another joke) what i'm trying to say is does it really matter? does it make you a better warrior? judge a man for what he can do not for what his name is. sounds like racism to me. if i claim to be a ninja... let my works show me to be true not my title.
> just some food for thought



The difference, as I percieve it anyhow... is this:

Hatsumi HAS those scrolls.  he doesn't CLAIM to have them... he has them... they have been shown... They are verifiable evidence. Someone says "Prove You are the Grandmaster" and he can, at the very very least say, "Well heres the scrolls." There is much more to it than that, but I am oversimplifying it.

Dux says "Im a ninja!" No proof, other than his word, cant wont and probably never will show any verifiable evidence of it.  

So... whereas an independant person, like say... ANDREW ADAMS who wrote an early book about the ninja, Spoke with Takamatsu and had seen the scrolls, can verify that there is at least some substance to Hatsumi's claims...

If another author goes to Dux to do a history of the "Dux-ryu" will he show them his teachers teachings? Provide evidence of his training? Etc? So far, the answer seems to be no... 

IMO that is the difference and it is a big difference.


----------



## Dale Seago (Jun 17, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> The difference, as I percieve it anyhow... is this:
> 
> Hatsumi HAS those scrolls.  he doesn't CLAIM to have them... he has them... they have been shown... They are verifiable evidence. Someone says "Prove You are the Grandmaster" and he can, at the very very least say, "Well heres the scrolls." There is much more to it than that, but I am oversimplifying it.
> 
> ...



Additionally, though some of the purely "ninja" stuff may be difficult to pin down, Takamatsu's own training and certification in several known arts is unquestionably verified: He rewrote some of the Kuki family's martial scrolls for them from memory after they were destroyed by a fire during WWII, and they acknowledge this themselves, for example. 

There's no reason to assume he made things up.


----------



## Elizium (Jun 18, 2004)

Personally I think that the Koga Ryu people can not prove a true line of teaching.  There is a break within the history and it is very recent.  They may have claims, but are finding it hard to place the teachings without faltering on their own selves as to lose students if proved fraudulent.


----------



## sojobow (Jun 18, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Of course, you have no proof to back up what you say about the differences. But I can point to the fact that the Iga and Koga were frequently on the same side, Iga and Koga  were just next to each other, the Iga documents talked about their ties to the Koga in the north, they both used the Bansenshukai, etc.  So much for your proof that there were differences.



I do believe that I have said, within this forum and said more than once, that Koga allied with Iga a few times.  We agree with one another.  Stories of Oda Nobunaga's attack on Iga speak of the great Koga Ninja killing many of Nobunaga's Samurai in his aid of Iga.  Bansenshukai (which I appreciate you finally mentioning something of importance to the thread on Ninja) speaks to the similarities of Koga and Iga war arts etc.  However, because one may have similarities does not eliminate that differences also may be evident.  There were differences between Families of Koga.  Koga religions were Shinto and Zen Buddhism, while Iga religions were Mik. Buddhism and Shinto.  Both were similar in Shinto but had differences in Buddhism even though both were off-shoots of Buddhism.  Being "Next to each other" is something explained by the next door neighbor being 50 miles away.

Logic: Oda Nobunaga attacked Iga and not Koga.  Must have been some type of difference between the two in Nobunaga's eyes as his Samurai had to pass by Koga to get to Iga's region if from edo/tokyo region.  



> You slander people I respect like Dale Seago and support a guy like Frank Dux who sullied the uniform of the United States with his false claims and attacks on the institutions that dared say that he was lying about his relationship with them.



And where did I slander your fellow Bujinkan?  I have much respect for Mr. Seago (and his beautiful wife) and understand him in a professional manner as I too practice parts of his personal profession.  As far as martial arts are concerned, he outranks me thus, I am unable to state any opinion (which would be a useless opinion anyway).  And why do you constantly mention the same people's names in your hatred.  Has not the Bujinkan taught you that hating is a useless, meaningless emotion that has no place in Budo.  (I like using your Japanese terms like "Budo" even though English translations is a lot clearer in English-speaking nations.)



> Just recently, you tried to portray the ninjas as operating outside of Japan.



You mention, quite frequently, that no proof exist IN JAPAN on certain items in discussion.  Lets try this short discussion directly from Japan:


Short story with lots of detail you are able to fill in:

A Samurai of the Toyotomi clan named Ieyasu Tokugawa, during the period of the 16th Century known as the "Golden Age of Ninjitsu," set out to make himself emperor even though the true ruler (per lineage) was the young Lord Hideyori.  We may find other info on Ieyasu by looking into the Battle of Seikigahara.  No arguement here regarding dates of "the Golden Age of Ninjitsu."  13th, 14th, 15th, 16th Century? - you pick one, I wouldn't argue it with you as I kind of lean towards the 14th-15th Centuries.

Anyway, a few years later, the assassination of Ieyasu Tokugawa was planned for the purpose of installing the rightfull Lord Hideyori to the throne.

Some central figures of interesdt during this time:

*Lady Yoda* - Caretaker of the kid, Lord Hideyori, and held hostage at Edo;
*Princess Ota* - Korean - also *a Korean Kunoichi* providing intelligence for the overthrow of Takugawa - she had previously be captured by the Japanese during a Korean invasion earlier;
*Korean Ninja Isa Miyoshi*-stole-in to rescue the princess Ota, provided intelligence from Lady Yoda;
*Saratobi Saskei* - a ninja master of the power of Kuji Kiri and  one of the failed assassins (the other 8 died because of an anti-ninja ninja);
*Master Hakune Saitozawa* - trainer of Saratobi.  Hakune Saitozawa was, himself, *born and trained in China* and whose philosophies formed the foundation of many new Ninja Clans in Japan. (E.G., from China to Japan and not the other way around)

We could also infer, as I have done, that ninjitsu *must not* have existed only in Japan prior to this Golden Age of Ninjitsu.



> Except, the Mongols never conquered Japan. They never even got far off the beaches before they were beaten back in two invasion attempts and a devine wind destroyed their fleets. (Oh yes, that is why the Japanese came up with the term "kamikaze/ devine wind" for their last desperate attempt to stop the allied invasion.)



Well, you're close here.  Mongols (Khan's) first invasion resulted in Shogun's army running away as the army, on horseback, had never seen or heard canon weapons.  They kept falling off their scared horses (Samurai did ride horses usually in combat).  Confused, the Shogun's army retreated.  Khan's army became suspicious as to why the Japanese army gave up so easy.  Khan's army then went back to their ships thinking that it must be a trap if they follow the running Samurai.  Note here, that Khan had sent messengers to Japan demanding his tribute.  These messengers must have been able to draw Japanese kanji and speak the language.  Khan returned with "1,000 Ships" after again demanding his tribute, then comes your Kamikaze events as the Japanese had built brick/rock walls at all west-facing ports.  Want proof? ask any American War College.  (aside: who were Khan's messengers? don't answer, just food for thought)



> MisterMike, does this answer your question about why people are antagonistic towards those claiming to be Koga? If you want an honest, documented account of the Koga ryu go to www.Jigokudojo.com and look for an article by me in the article section.



Yooo Mikey:  When you check out Mr. Roley's "History of Koga," remember that he said "an honest, documented account."  Note how he himself says that he left off certain information in order to try and trap Kogas.  Would this behavior, in a 'historical' document be considered "honest?"  Also, seems we take liberties with what we consider as a "documented account."  I must have missed his "credits."  Actually, its not about Iga and Koga, its about Koga and sojobow hating.

Shamefull.  No teaching of Ninjutsu at the University of Tokyo.


----------



## sojobow (Jun 18, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> Personally I think that the Koga Ryu people can not prove a true line of teaching.  There is a break within the history and it is very recent.  They may have claims, but are finding it hard to place the teachings without faltering on their own selves as to lose students if proved fraudulent.



Take this from someone who practices a martial art style/system that "includes" Koga Yamabushi.  We don't care about the "Japanese connection."  What goes on in the Ryu, stays within the Ryu.

Knowledge is "earned" in our Ryu.


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 18, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> However, because one may have similarities does not eliminate that differences also may be evident.  There were differences between Families of Koga.  Koga religions were Shinto and Zen Buddhism, while Iga religions were Mik. Buddhism and Shinto.



Sources and cites. You throw these little things out and then refuse to back them up with anything anyone else can go and check up. If you are being truthfull about not slandering Dale Seago, Frank Dux actually having a video of his kumite, etc, then show us how trustworthy you are by showing proof of this statement you threw out.

If you can not, I think most people will understand when I say that you can not be trusted and are actively involved in trying to decieve others.



			
				sojobow said:
			
		

> A Samurai of the Toyotomi clan named Ieyasu Tokugawa, during the period of the 16th Century known as the "Golden Age of Ninjitsu," set out to make himself emperor even though the true ruler (per lineage) was the young Lord Hideyori.



This is an example of how ignorant you are. I am not being cruel, I am just being honest. Run this by any teacher of Japanese history and they will fall over themselves laughing. Ieyasu was never a Toyotomi clan member. Neither  were, nor tried to be, the emperor. 

These are things that are easily checked by an inquiry with a person who has SOME experience in Japanese history. It is also typical of the patently false information you spread on the internet to try to shore up your case that maybe what you say may be true.

I do not even have to deal with the rest of your misguided babblings. If anyone doubts that what I say is true, go to the local community college and ask the Japanese history proffesor if the quote by Sojobow is anything other than a silly joke. Then take my word that the rest of what he writes is of a similar tack.

Of course, after this, Sojobow is probably going to try his old tactic of whining, "I never tried to portray myself as an expert" (Bovine feces- read the post above) " I was just trying to deal with others in an honest exchange of ideas! Why are you all out to get me!"


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## sojobow (Jun 18, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sources and cites. You throw these little things out and then refuse to back them up with anything anyone else can go and check up. If you are being truthfull about not slandering Dale Seago, Frank Dux actually having a video of his kumite, etc, then show us how trustworthy you are by showing proof of this statement you threw out.



If Ieyasu Tokugawa was not a member of the Toyotomi Clan, tell us what Clan to which he belonged.

I named certain Korean and Chinese "Ninja."  Ninja being the subject of this thread sir.  If I'm wrong, tell us where.

Your constant crying doesn't help us learn anything about "Ninja."

Have you noticed that every post you make remotely connected to a discussion involving me, has a certain name within.  You constantly, regardless of the subject, insert into your reply, the name next to "Dale Seago" above.  You're gonna have to do better - mentally - if you want to pass the Sakki Test with the tester using a REAL SWORD and not a bamboo stick.

Help us out and post some facts regarding the Ninja and not about sojobow (and please learn to spell my name correctly - it ain't hard - no caps either).

*In fact, don't even trouble yourself crying to everyone here.  sojobow is outta here.  I need to concentrate more on my Mushin exercises anyway.  So, enjoy talking about Hanshi and me behind our backs.  You other guys take care.  Try to dump the hatred.  I'll check in again when I see adults posting.  See you around crybaby.*

Best of Luck to you all,

sojobow


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## Elizium (Jun 18, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> Take this from someone who practices a martial art style/system that "includes" Koga Yamabushi. We don't care about the "Japanese connection." What goes on in the Ryu, stays within the Ryu.
> 
> Knowledge is "earned" in our Ryu.


So by saying you do not care about the Japanese connection, you are turning your backs on the history of the Koga and basically ripping off the name Koga for monetary means?


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## Don Roley (Jun 18, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> *In fact, don't even trouble yourself crying to everyone here.  sojobow is outta here.  I need to concentrate more on my Mushin exercises anyway.  So, enjoy talking about Hanshi and me behind our backs.  You other guys take care.  Try to dump the hatred.  I'll check in again when I see adults posting.  See you around crybaby.*



Don't leave mad, just leave. Or start giving sources and stop lying.

And I really want people to check with local Japanese history teachers to see just how silly Sojobow's comment about Tokugawa Ieyasu belonging to the Toyotomi clan, etc, is.


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## heretic888 (Jun 19, 2004)

*And I really want people to check with local Japanese history teachers to see just how silly Sojobow's comment about Tokugawa Ieyasu belonging to the Toyotomi clan, etc, is.*

Gonna agree with Don here. I have would you call a "baby steps" understanding of Japanese history, and even I know sojobow is spewing horsecrap with his claims here.

Regarding sojobow's contention that there were Chinese and Korean "ninja", I would be interested in knowing what his definition of "ninja" is in the first place. Its apparently not the definition that most historians use.

Laterz.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 19, 2004)

If he ment that there where people of each race and nation that might have been involved with intellgence gathering and assassianation, political influenceing and starting disharmoney with the villages, he might be correct. But to say they where ninja's, a verry distint group of Japanese people, is perhaps way of base.


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## heretic888 (Jun 19, 2004)

Well.... the problem is that things like spying, scouting, sneak attacks, and "covert ops" in general have been used human beings for a very, very, _very_ long time. By no means are they unique to _any_ culture or _any_ particular group of people.

This is why I think some people's treatment of historical "ninja" as anybody that used "covert" tactics in feudal Japan is _way_ too broad.

Bah, doesn't matter anyway. Sojobow's not here anymore.

All's well that ends well. I guess.


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## Elizium (Jun 19, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Bah, doesn't matter anyway. Sojobow's not here anymore.
> 
> All's well that ends well. I guess.


He is here but not posting.  So be wary people.


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## Henso (Jun 27, 2004)

http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com

gentlemen,

A very interesting discussion you're having, and one that has particular relevance to my Ninjutsu experience. Though I am currently a member of the Bujinkan, my first teacher was a fantasy Koga practitioner, who claimed lineal connection to Fujita Seiko. At the time, there was no information available on this mysterious man, which made it difficult to disprove the false claims. I therefore take a different approach to Mr. Roley, beleiving that the more information that is available the better.

I have done much of the same research as Mr. Roley,(Above referenced link) and I agree with all of his conclusions. There is no currently credible evidence of any Koga Ryuha existing today. Fujita was the last person accepted as being a Koga Ninja by the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, and nobody in Japan has ever come forward to dispute this statement. I would also direct you to an English translation of a Fujita related article, posted on my site.(Fujita Saiko:Stranger Than Truth) The article was published in Karate Bushido, a French publication, by Sylvain Guitard. It too, arrives at the same conclusion.

Lastly, I just received a copy of Fujita's obituary, which I am having translated. A cursory look at it reveals some interesting facts:

1. Contrary to popular belief, it names a succesor, Iwata Manzo, inheritor of Nanban Sato Ryu Kenpo-Jutsu, Shingetsu Ryu Shurikenjutsu  and Dai En Ryu Jojutsu. I found confirmation of the Nanban Sato Ryu inheritance on pg662 of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.
2. Both the obituary and Bugei Ryuha Daijiten confirm that neither Iwata nor anyone else, inherited Fujita's Ninjutsu system. The latter is particularly clear on this matter.

I will be posting the obituary in the original Japanese and the English when it is complete. Please review and comment.


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## Don Roley (Jun 27, 2004)

Henso said:
			
		

> 1. Contrary to popular belief, it names a succesor, Iwata Manzo, inheritor of Nanban Sato Ryu Kenpo-Jutsu, Shingetsu Ryu Shurikenjutsu  and Dai En Ryu Jojutsu. I found confirmation of the Nanban Sato Ryu inheritance on pg662 of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.



This is common knowledge in Japan. You want the address of the Namban Setto ryu? I can give it to you. The key thing that some of us have said is that Fujita's _ninjutsu_ traditon died with him. The fact that he was willing to name a succesor for one non- ninjutsu tradition but there is no mention in a Japanese source for his Koga ryu tradition is kind of damming to those who claim that Fujita passed on the tradition to their teacher but did not bother to tell anyone else.

Believe me, I have been looking for another source of ninjutsu in Japan. Fujita seems to be the best chance of a living tradition. But so far, EVERY source says that the ninjutsu art died with him.


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## Henso (Jun 27, 2004)

I agree with you entirely. I mentioned the fact of his naming an inheritor, more to demonstrate that the idea that the reason why Fujita's Koga tradition didn't come down to us, is because his 3 most senior students died with him, simply doesn't hold water. All of the facts that Fujita had chosen not to pass the system on. (Assuming it is accepted that he was actaully a ninja)

This fact is attested to in Fujita's autobiography, the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (pg 273), and in numerous interviews that Fujita gave before he died. His obituary which names his uchi deshi, only adds to this mountain of facts. Anybody claiming otherwise, cannot simply make vague and unsubstantiated claims to counter these facts, documentation is the only gauge of a serious arguement.


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