# New guy here, and I do ATA...



## auxiliary (Mar 13, 2011)

Hey guys, 

Thought I'd introduce myself.  I was searching for something online and came across this forum and after reading a couple of posts thought I'd love to join.  I hope I can give some feedback on what the ATA is, does, and operates.  Currently I'm a third degree and testing for fourth at world championships in June.

Just so you guys know I got my black belt in WTF when I was a child, "Junior black belt", and then took a break and later came back to TKD in the ATA. 

I currently run a "successful school" (In my eyes) and have been doing so for the past couple of years.  Hopefully I can help some people out with ideas and what not.  Of course, I hope I can also get help in continuing to grow and help my students. 

Please, leave the ATA bashing for other threads, but like I said I am willing to answer any questions you guys may have about it. 

Thanks!


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 13, 2011)

Welcome to the board. I'm based in the UK, so I have no particular feelings regarding the ata, but I gather (from here) they have a bit of a reputation, so I'm looking forward to spectating at the inevitable debates.

Anyway, welcome mate!


----------



## IcemanSK (Mar 13, 2011)

Welcome to Martial Talk. It's good to have you here. I look forward to your input.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 13, 2011)

Welcome and enjoy the chats here. You will get ATA basher here simply because of alot of the things they do. I have had some come to my school never really doing any contact sparring which I simply do not understand, but that is them and maybe not you. I have had no positive experiences with the ATA in my area that being said I am sure there is alot of great schools out there.


----------



## StudentCarl (Mar 13, 2011)

Welcome. I studied at an ATA school 30 years ago and now attend a KKW school. I think the master matters much more than the organization, and look forward to your input here.

Carl


----------



## granfire (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi there.

It get's a bit heated from time to time, but never really unreasonable. We all hate bad TKD or instructors, regardless of the Organization. A good instructor is just that.

Welcome on board.


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 13, 2011)

pretty much, if you're good, what group you are with doesnt matter.


if you are bad, same thing

problem is, ata turns out a lot of the latter. But if that isnt you or your school then it doesnt matter


----------



## seasoned (Mar 13, 2011)

Greetings and welcome aboard. We are more into content of character here at MT. Good dialog is a plus and opens the door for sharing, and exchanging of ideas, on a wide range of topics. Do hope you enjoy your stay here, see you around on the boards.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi, welcome to MT!  Always great to have another voice on the TKD forum (which is very active, and the most respectful TKD, KMA forum I've found).  Look forward to hearing your input, and like many have just posted, it's not about the org, it's about the instructor.


----------



## msmitht (Mar 13, 2011)

Welcome to mt. I have had a few bad transfers from ata schools. I can't believe that they all suck as bad as the ata around me. Question: why don't they do contact sparring and give out black belts in 2 years?


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks everyone!  I think the biggest thing people need to know is that the ATA is not a franchise, but is a license.  I am sure most of you know the difference between the two, but that allows all the schools to be different.  Main thing between us is that we use the same forms, our instructors are certified nationally, which is nice, and then of course the huge amount of tournaments that the ATA offers throughout the year.   Trust me, I know there are plenty of them that aren't up to par.  But, I also know there are a lot of other schools not affiliated with ATA that are just as bad, if not worse.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 13, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Welcome to mt. I have had a few bad transfers from ata schools. I can't believe that they all suck as bad as the ata around me. Question: why don't they do contact sparring and give out black belts in 2 years?




Every school is different. You can choose to rank test when you feel.  Some schools may rank test every month, two months, or every 6 months.  It's up the instructor at the school to decide. At my school it takes 3-3.5 years to be allowed to test for 1st degree. 

We do contact sparring.  The only thing we don't allow is punching to the face with color belts.  ATA is developing a new sparring concept that they allow black belts to do at national events.  (Spring Nationals, Fall Nationals, and Worlds) that is called Integrated Martial Arts.  The sparring allows kicking below the waste, punching to the head, and take downs with 30 seconds on the ground before they have to stand back up.  It's not "Point break" sparring but is a continuous 5 minute round (I think, maybe it's 3.)  We've also started adding full contact stick fighting to some tournaments.  Youtube, "ATA Combat Weapon Sparring."  It's a blast to do.


----------



## granfire (Mar 13, 2011)

OH POOP, full contact stick? That's bad, man, in a good way.
We did stick for a while, we had the eternal giggles in class, but we never got far enough to go tournament (ITA gal here, once upon a time we sprung from the ATA)


----------



## mango.man (Mar 13, 2011)

http://ataonline.com/the_ring/standings/tourcurr.asp?vb=B23A&vf=

What does it take for a child, age 1 to 7 years, to achieve 3rd degree black belt in the ATA system?


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 13, 2011)

mango.man said:


> http://ataonline.com/the_ring/standings/tourcurr.asp?vb=B23A&vf=
> 
> What does it take for a child, age 1 to 7 years, to achieve 3rd degree black belt in the ATA system?


 
Like I said, every school is different.  At my school students don't even start earning "real rank" until they're 6.  4-6 year olds are in a Tiny Tiger program where they work towards a tiny tiger black belt which takes 18 months to complete.  Once they get that they start junior classes at Orange belt which is our second class.  Add 3 years to that for them to go from orange to black and then they're 9 years old at the YOUNGEST but also have 5 years in martial arts. 

ATA use to have age requirements on 2nd degree which was 12 years old.  They have since removed it and left it up to the school to have their own choice.  You do have to be 18 to be promoted to 4th degree and there are also age requirements on becoming master (6th degree in ATA) but I'm not 100% what it is. 

Most likely those students who are in the 1-7 2nd and 3rd degree are all 2nd degrees.  ATA just groups 2nd and 3rd Degrees together for all competition at any age.  You could have a student who started normal classes at 4 or 5, the school could have given them real rank of black belt by 6 at some schools.  After they receive black belt then they have to have a minimum of 12 months at first degree before they get 2nd degree.  At my school it's 18 months at first before second.  

Hopefully that answers your question.  There are a bunch of people training in ATA WORLD WIDE and there are only 6 of these "types" of students in the entire world on the Top Ten.  So you can imagine it's not common.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 13, 2011)

This is why the ATA get so much riff, how can anybody that truely do a martial art let someone 7 or below be a 3rd or even a 2nd degree BB? This is just outrages and give any other adult bb that shaft.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 13, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> This is why the ATA get so much riff, how can anybody that truely do a martial art let someone 7 or below be a 3rd or even a 2nd degree BB? This is just outrages and give any other adult bb that shaft.



My students do the exact same test tha adults do. The only difference is the board they break which is equal to their age. If they can complete the test and do so with a good grade, why hold them away from getting their black belt?

Black belt is an amazing goal to reach and is something to be very proud of. Why keep it from someone that's worked just as hard as someone that's older than them?

I look at this argument like religion. People already believe one thing and it's so hard for some to see another way. 

Plus remember...there are over 35,000 people in the ATA. There are only 6 in this ring in the top ten. This is not normal maybe instructor kids....maybe younger brothers/sisters of students. Who have been around tkd ever since they could walk. Wish I could answer but honestly I don't know anyone who is in this situation personally. We have 8 schools in the area and nothing like this. But like I said all ATA schools are different. Don't blame the ATA, it's that schools instructor.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 13, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> But like I said all ATA schools are different. Don't blame the ATA, it's that schools instructor



You've got to admit if the parent organization, in this case ATA, permits it then they do bear some of the responsibility, regardless of any franchise vs. licensee distinction.   It's a cop-out  to blame everything on the individual school owners.  Nationals has a brand to protect after all - it's up to them to maintain at least some modicum of credibility otherwise the entire group becomes tainted.  I had understood that there was a movement of sorts at the organization leadership level to lead a charge to regain some rigor in promotional testing, particularly at Worlds.

Now to be fair however, plenty of TKD orgs permit BB promotions for children.  ATA is not alone in this.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 13, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> You've got to admit if the parent organization, in this case ATA, permits it then they do bear some of the responsibility, regardless of any franchise vs. licensee distinction.   It's a cop-out  to blame everything on the individual school owners.  Nationals has a brand to protect after all - it's up to them to maintain at least some modicum of credibility otherwise the entire group becomes tainted.  I had understood that there was a movement of sorts at the organization leadership level to lead a charge to regain some rigor in promotional testing, particularly at Worlds.
> 
> Now to be fair however, plenty of TKD orgs permit BB promotions for children.  ATA is not alone in this.



ATA has started at the top on trying to keep the high ranks looking like high ranks.  I have personally trained with a lot of the higher ranks, 8th degrees and grand master a hand full of times, and I can tell you those guys are not slouches.  The amount of people that fail for 4th degree and above is high.  For 4th degree you have to test at a national event.  They are really trying to keep the people that aren't up to par in their place.  That with the new physical test helps.  The test is push ups, sit ups, kicks, combinations, and punches which you have to get a total of 300 or above to pass.  Not that hard if you're in shape, but if not it's an easy way to filter the people out who should and should not test.  A lot of school owners I have talked to have started doing this at their own school for students testing just for first degree.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 13, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> ATA has started at the top on trying to keep the high ranks looking like high ranks.  I have personally trained with a lot of the higher ranks, 8th degrees and grand master a hand full of times, and I can tell you those guys are not slouches.  The amount of people that fail for 4th degree and above is high.  For 4th degree you have to test at a national event.  They are really trying to keep the people that aren't up to par in their place.  That with the new physical test helps.  The test is push ups, sit ups, kicks, combinations, and punches which you have to get a total of 300 or above to pass.  Not that hard if you're in shape, but if not it's an easy way to filter the people out who should and should not test.  A lot of school owners I have talked to have started doing this at their own school for students testing just for first degree.



I'm all for physical fitness.   I would like to see even 2nd and 3rd candidates be tested elsewhere than their home dojang under different examiners.  This would go a long ways to making the pass/fail rate more honest.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Mar 13, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm all for physical fitness.   I would like to see even 2nd and 3rd candidates be tested elsewhere than their home dojang under different examiners.  This would go a long ways to making the pass/fail rate more honest.


We do this. We are graded in town by a panel of 7th dans, who basically dont know you from a bar of soap. We also cant spar anyone at grading who trains in our regular class. I feel this adds some credibility to a 'pass'.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 13, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm all for physical fitness.   I would like to see even 2nd and 3rd candidates be tested elsewhere than their home dojang under different examiners.  This would go a long ways to making the pass/fail rate more honest.



For our schools we do black belt testing twice a year, actually have one coming up on Saturday!

All 8 of our schools get together and do the testing.  We rent out a gym and do an entire day of it.  We sometimes have guest instructors come from other schools to judge. 

This is good because the students are judged by instructors that have never seen them before from other schools. 

This works well for us, but not everyone has the ability to have multiple schools or someone come and "guest" judge every time they test.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 13, 2011)

*My students do the exact same test tha adults do. The only difference is the board they break which is equal to their age. If they can complete the test and do so with a good grade, why hold them away from getting their black belt*

So you are going to tell me a 7 year old is doing the same type of self defense as an adult, than all I can say is the program is water down and I mean like a flood. No 7 year old could understand the physics behind certain self defense techniques let alone what the law says you can or cannot do. They would have no ideak what lethal force is or what it would meanto kill someone in self defense? No way can you or any instructor tell me the curriculum is the same for a 7 year old as it would be for a thirty year old. I have been in MA for over forty years and that is the most stupid statement I have ever heard from anybody or instructor. Childern cannot physically or emotionally be at the same level as an adult with technique or ability. Hell they could not even understand applications from poomsae,forms or tuls for that matter. I am sure you do not teach pressure points, joint locks to a six year old and say now remember do not try this on your kindergardeners because they could get hurt.

Sometime I wonder when people say stuff like this are they really thinking it though or just trying to make people believe the material is the same. I believe in Junior BB's but junior are not adults.

Sorry if this come's across hard but to say he gives the exact same test except for board breaking than either the adult program is waterdown or the child program is really not the same.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 13, 2011)

Excuse me, I was talking about the actual test that we do for black belt and not the classes leading up to it. 

There is a difference between classes, concepts, and material that we teach the students based on ages.  We do try to keep them similar because most of our adult students are also parents of students so by keeping their curriculum similar it helps them to be able to practice at home together.  We do cover things with adults that children don't get yet.  Personally we have done a lot of hand to hand, hand to knife with an arnis master that we do not even think about covering with the children.  This is great for adults but is not used at black belt testing.  

For our black belt testing we do a physical portion which is a 2.5 mile run, push ups, sit ups, kicks, combinations, punches.  We also do a written test which covers TKD history, questions, belt meanings, things like that.  After that we do a 1 hour work out with all the instructors and testers which is then followed by the actual test.  Then they will do sparring, black belt form, board break, and a self-defense of their choice.  

That is what I was meaning when I say juniors/adults do the same test.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Mar 14, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> Excuse me, I was talking about the actual test that we do for black belt and not the classes leading up to it.
> 
> There is a difference between classes, concepts, and material that we teach the students based on ages.  We do try to keep them similar because most of our adult students are also parents of students so by keeping their curriculum similar it helps them to be able to practice at home together.  We do cover things with adults that children don't get yet.  Personally we have done a lot of hand to hand, hand to knife with an arnis master that we do not even think about covering with the children.  This is great for adults but is not used at black belt testing.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is that the test is the same, but the curriculum leading up to that test is different. This probably stills falls into the area that terry was talking about, whereby the curriculum is 'watered down' for the kids as you said "We do cover things with adults that children don't get yet.  Personally  we have done a lot of hand to hand, hand to knife with an arnis master  that we do not even think about covering with the children". Also, I am amazed kids that young can run 2.5 miles, I know many adults who cant do that.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 14, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> Excuse me, I was talking about the actual test that we do for black belt and not the classes leading up to it.
> 
> There is a difference between classes, concepts, and material that we teach the students based on ages. We do try to keep them similar because most of our adult students are also parents of students so by keeping their curriculum similar it helps them to be able to practice at home together. We do cover things with adults that children don't get yet. Personally we have done a lot of hand to hand, hand to knife with an arnis master that we do not even think about covering with the children. This is great for adults but is not used at black belt testing.
> 
> ...


 
Please tell me where your school is located? I would love to stop by because by your admission the test would not be the same. I also do not believe a 6-8 year old child will run 2.5 miles, I was a high school PE teacher and basketball coach for twenty years and I know for first hand you do not do enough cardio in your school for a child to run 2.5 miles. I am not trying to be mean but I would love someone to say justonce that the test and curriculum is different for childern and adults. I know mine is amd I consider myself a hardass with physical fitness and self defense but even I know a junior BB is not a adult BB. All my juniors when they reach 15 they start to learn the adult curriculum and re-test for there dan rank at age 17. Yes my child curriculum is waterdown compared to what I teach my adults but for a child it is pretty rough. Let not say apple and oranges are the same, sure they are both fruit but the two are completely different.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 14, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Thought I'd introduce myself.  I was searching for something online and came across this forum and after reading a couple of posts thought I'd love to join.  I hope I can give some feedback on what the ATA is, does, and operates.  Currently I'm a third degree and testing for fourth at world championships in June.


Welcome!  Nice to have another ATAer on the forum.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 14, 2011)

mango.man said:


> http://ataonline.com/the_ring/standings/tourcurr.asp?vb=B23A&vf=
> 
> What does it take for a child, age 1 to 7 years, to achieve 3rd degree black belt in the ATA system?


WARNING - HOT BUTTON PUSHED!!  :soapbox:

This is a sore spot with me.  It's possible because the kid earned rank as a Tiny Tiger.  I firmly believe that our Tigers should NOT earn rank (they won't in my school if I ever start another Tiger program), but should be kept as White Belts until they move into the regular program.

I also personally feel that our age limits need to be restored.  IMNSHO, the absolute minimum age for First Degree should be no less than 10.  No single digit midget Black Belts; they are simply too young to understand the concepts that accompany the rank.  It's not all just punching and kicking.

It's a clash between business practices and teaching martial arts, and when you see seven year old Third Degrees, the business practices won.  And that is not a good thing.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 14, 2011)

granfire said:


> OH POOP, full contact stick? That's bad, man, in a good way.
> We did stick for a while, we had the eternal giggles in class, but we never got far enough to go tournament (ITA gal here, once upon a time we sprung from the ATA)



Well, the stick is padded and we do wear our sparring gear.  Having said that, I judge combat weapons and I have seen some absolutely fantastic moves.  One of my favorites was a tremendous head shot that wound up with headgear rolling across the floor.  I was looking to see if the head was still in it.


----------



## granfire (Mar 14, 2011)

Balrog said:


> Well, the stick is padded and we do wear our sparring gear.  Having said that, I judge combat weapons and I have seen some absolutely fantastic moves.  One of my favorites was a tremendous head shot that wound up with headgear rolling across the floor.  I was looking to see if the head was still in it.



It wasn't delivered by a 60ish lady, was it?

My friend really got into sticks...I preferred not to partner with her  
It's awesome fun, I mean, you really don't get the oportunity much to beat up on each other with sticks!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 14, 2011)

Welcome to MT, Auxiliary.  Glad to see your organization get a little more representation here.

Daniel


----------



## StudentCarl (Mar 14, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> ...I also do not believe a 6-8 year old child will run 2.5 miles, I was a high school PE teacher and basketball coach for twenty years and I know for first hand you do not do enough cardio in your school for a child to run 2.5 miles.


 
We have a 7 year old blue belt who has trained with the competition team for two years. Last summer we ran a local 5K race before practice. She was 6 and completed the race in just over 26 minutes. Her two older sibs are team members and mom is a runner. When Michigan weather allows, we run at least a couple of miles before practice, so it wasn't new to her.

I understand your point Terry, but how many 6-8 year old kids did you have in HS PE?

We do enough cardio in our school if you do comp. team, and I can't imagine we're the only one. They may be exceptional, but they exist.

I too would like to see some age minimums such as 10 for 1st poom, but it would require school owners to think through how they manage promotions for those kids who start very young.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 14, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> Please, leave the ATA bashing for other threads, but like I said I am willing to answer any questions you guys may have about it.


From what I understand, the ATA has about the same number of belts as most other schools, which seems to be between ten and twelve these days (including white, ildan and dan bo).  I know that the ATA has recommended and decided versions of each belt.

Are there two separate tests (one for recommended and one for decided), each with associated testing fees?  Or does it work differently?

Thank you in advance for answering.

Daniel


----------



## granfire (Mar 14, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Please tell me where your school is located? I would love to stop by because by your admission the test would not be the same. I also do not believe a 6-8 year old child will run 2.5 miles, I was a high school PE teacher and basketball coach for twenty years and I know for first hand you do not do enough cardio in your school for a child to run 2.5 miles. I am not trying to be mean but I would love someone to say justonce that the test and curriculum is different for childern and adults. I know mine is amd I consider myself a hardass with physical fitness and self defense but even I know a junior BB is not a adult BB. All my juniors when they reach 15 they start to learn the adult curriculum and re-test for there dan rank at age 17. Yes my child curriculum is waterdown compared to what I teach my adults but for a child it is pretty rough. Let not say apple and oranges are the same, sure they are both fruit but the two are completely different.




I would not run 2.6 miles...I would not run 400 meters for that matter. I hate running.
And I suppose if I had to run for TKD I would not do it (besides running is bad for the joints)


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 14, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> We have a 7 year old blue belt who has trained with the competition team for two years. Last summer we ran a local 5K race before practice. She was 6 and completed the race in just over 26 minutes. Her two older sibs are team members and mom is a runner. When Michigan weather allows, we run at least a couple of miles before practice, so it wasn't new to her.
> 
> I understand your point Terry, but how many 6-8 year old kids did you have in HS PE?
> 
> ...


 

Ok let me clear this up my point is this can a few do it sure but they are the exception not the rule. I cannot see any mature instructor making a 6-8 year old do the same test as the adults except if the adult test in waterdown. I have a few young one's that have been with me since thee age of two and now are 7 and they are barely mid belts. simply because they really do not understand the curriculum of the school. That does not mean they are not nice to have around but my parents understand there is a long waiting period for them to get there.

Hell my own son's who grew up inside a dojaang working out everyday did not have a BB at 6-8 so why would I give one to anybody else working out a few times a week.

Here is another way to look at it most people only absorb about 70-80% of what they are tought, childern is way less. So if a child starts at say 4 and that is when most schools allow them and they do 4 day a week for 45 minutes that equal 3 hours a week times 47 week in a year on average that is only 141 hours x 2 equals 282 hours of training that equates to 6 weeks of work for an adult which ia a probation period with alot of companies so how can a 6-8 year old even phantom what a BB really is? Sorry the number are what I go by and maturity level which in today world is way less than it was years ago. Is there exceptions to the rule sure but they are far in between not the norm.

I will let people do what they want it is there school but do not try and tell me stuff is not waterdown even I have to with the youngers ones we all do....:asian:


----------



## clfsean (Mar 14, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I understand, the ATA has about the same number of belts as most other schools, which seems to be between ten and twelve these days (including white, ildan and dan bo).  I know that the ATA has recommended and decided versions of each belt.
> 
> Are there two separate tests (one for recommended and one for decided), each with associated testing fees?  Or does it work differently?
> 
> ...



Don't forget the camo belt!!

http://www.droegesata.com/belts.html


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 14, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I understand, the ATA has about the same number of belts as most other schools, which seems to be between ten and twelve these days (including white, ildan and dan bo).  I know that the ATA has recommended and decided versions of each belt.
> 
> Are there two separate tests (one for recommended and one for decided), each with associated testing fees?  Or does it work differently?
> 
> ...



As I understand it, the gup ranks really have no absolute mandate from HQ on how to handle them.  Some studios do use them as two separate testing ranks.  Some studios use the rec. and dec. ranks as a way of 'flunking' a student without the official embarrassment of a 'no change' - thus, the colored belts that passed are given a decided rank, and the ones that need additional work get a recommended promotion instead.  Still other studios only start issuing rec. and dec. ranks after green belt or so.

I believe there is more of a national procedure for rec. and dec. ranks for first and second dans.


----------



## StudentCarl (Mar 14, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> ... I have a few young one's that have been with me since thee age of two and now are 7 and they are barely mid belts. simply because they really do not understand the curriculum of the school.


 
Terry, I completely agree with you. There's a depth of understanding and maturation, a visible difference in movement and focus as students move through the belts at higher ages--something the younger ones aren't ready for. I'll defer to my seniors on how much of that is coordination, life experience, that they are still growing and changing so much, or whatever, but I can see it.

My point was that there are kids who can handle some of the physical tasks. I'd add that I haven't seen any that young with the whole maturity package. There are no younger kids that I would want exposed the the full defensive side of the curriculum--they don't have the emotional maturity.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 14, 2011)

Again at my school we do not have any 6-7 year olds testing for rank.  Most of them are an old 8 or a young 9 at the YOUNGEST.  Most of my students testing on Saturday are between 10 and 12.  Again, ATA schools are different but that's how we are.  

Everyone knows they have to run 2.5 miles.  Most students start training on this months before the test.  Everyone runs it.  We allow students to walk a lap(s) if needed.  They are given 50 minutes to run it.  We have some students, normally teenagers who are in great shape that finish it in 20 minutes.  

We have had very unfit (Fat) people do the testing.  They hated it, but they completed it and where so proud of themselves.  

If we had a 6 year old test for black belt, which we wouldn't, then they would have to do the entire test.  If they are not prepared or cannot complete the entire test...then they don't test.  

Ok, now about rank. 

ATA  has 9 color belts.  White, Orange, Yellow, Camo, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red. 

There is a Recommended Black belt after red. 

ATA rule is that students MUST complete Recommended rank at Brown belt.  ATA gives their schools the option to choose if they want to implement recommended ranks before brown belt.  At my school we begin recommended at camo belt.  There is a testing fee for every rank, recommended and decided.  The form will stay the same between the two testings but we change the basics, first time it's basics done in the form, second time it's weapon basics.  We also do self-defense on the first testing and then the second testing it's sparring segments.  We will do board break at testing also.  

Again, every ATA school is different.  I know there are bad schools, but ours seems to be doing well. 

We are located outside of Atlanta.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 14, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> There is a testing fee for every rank, recommended and decided.



Ouch.  



auxiliary said:


> We are located outside of Atlanta.



Any Choi Kwang Do schools near you?  They also have lots of colored belt ranks.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Ouch.
> 
> 
> 
> Any Choi Kwang Do schools near you?  They also have lots of colored belt ranks.



There are none really close to me.  I know of them though, been around forever.


----------



## harlan (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm 50, with arthritis, and I WALK a mile, uphill, in 20/30 minutes. Doesn't seem like a real 'test' for a fit adult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking



auxiliary said:


> Everyone knows they have to run 2.5 miles. Most students start training on this months before the test. Everyone runs it. We allow students to walk a lap(s) if needed. They are given 50 minutes to run it. We have some students, normally teenagers who are in great shape that finish it in 20 minutes.
> 
> We have had very unfit (Fat) people do the testing. They hated it, but they completed it and where so proud of themselves.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 14, 2011)

We often discuss this with other TKD systems...

I have a question about black belt transfers.  Could someone like a 3rd dan in another form of TKD transfer INTO the ATA at the same rank, provided of course he learns the ATA curriculum?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 14, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> Ok, now about rank.
> 
> ATA has 9 color belts. White, Orange, Yellow, Camo, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red.
> 
> ...


Just to make sure that I'm reading this correctly: two tests prior to camo (orange and yellow) then twelve tests total from camo to red, for a total of sixteen tests.  Then there are two additional tests for black belt.

Is there a fee for all sixteen of those tests?  Or do you only charge one fee for the belt level?

Also, what is the time in grade for recommended and the time in grade for decided?

Thank you,

Daniel


----------



## granfire (Mar 14, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just to make sure that I'm reading this correctly: two tests prior to camo (orange and yellow) then twelve tests total from camo to red, for a total of sixteen tests.  Then there are two additional tests for black belt.
> 
> Is there a fee for all sixteen of those tests?  Or do you only charge one fee for the belt level?
> 
> ...




Sounds like the old ITA way, except they called it color and sr color.

So you had one test at white and yellow, then tested twice as green, blue, purple and red. (that's what, 10 tests?)


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> We often discuss this with other TKD systems...
> 
> I have a question about black belt transfers.  Could someone like a 3rd dan in another form of TKD transfer INTO the ATA at the same rank, provided of course he learns the ATA curriculum?



ATA takes transfers all the time.  Some of the high rank masters are from the WTF and other organizations and their ranks are usually held.  Again, I don't work with masters or deal with the ATA organization itself on those.  I work at my school and my school only.  It's not common for us to have 3rd degrees and higher join the school. 

Personally I like to keep a student at their rank if they come to the school.  This usually helps there confidence and keeps them excited.   What I let them do is join the school at their rank and then they may just have to wait longer to test.  I have had students before that come to me as a certain rank at a different organization that where so bad I did have to start them over.  Not what I normally like doing but I will if need be. 

I think the biggest thing you guys need to realize is that I am doing something that works for me.  This is my full time job and I support not only myself but also my entire staff.  We are able to do what we love, help children and families and have a huge positive impact on our community.  

If you don't agree with testing recommended or decided, or testing children under a certain age to black belt...then don't do it.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 14, 2011)

harlan said:


> I'm 50, with arthritis, and I WALK a mile, uphill, in 20/30 minutes. Doesn't seem like a real 'test' for a fit adult.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking



I agree.  This is not the entire test.  It's a portion of the test.  Some people it's hard, some people it's easy.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Ouch.


 
I want a limb from that money tree... yeesh... 



dancingalone said:


> Any Choi Kwang Do schools near you? They also have lots of colored belt ranks.


 
irate4:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 15, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> ATA rule is that students MUST complete Recommended rank at Brown belt. ATA gives their schools the option to choose if they want to implement recommended ranks before brown belt. At my school we begin recommended at camo belt. *There is a testing fee for every rank*, recommended and decided.


Maybe you missed this one (on the last page) but I just wanted to clarify:  Does the testing fee for the rank include both recommended and decided or do recommended and decided each carry their own fees?

One fee for the rank with a recommended and decided stage is different from what amounts to a total of sixteen ranks, some of which share a belt color but none of which share a fee.

Again, my thanks in advance.

Daniel


----------



## sfs982000 (Mar 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Maybe you missed this one (on the last page) but I just wanted to clarify: Does the testing fee for the rank include both recommended and decided or do recommended and decided each carry their own fees?
> 
> One fee for the rank with a recommended and decided stage is different from what amounts to a total of sixteen ranks, some of which share a belt color but none of which share a fee.
> 
> ...


At the ATA school I attend the recommended/decided rank structure applies to everyone from orange belt to 2nd degree black belt.  The only ranks that are mandatory for us to test for both recommended and decided ranks is 1st and 2nd degree and there are testing fees for both the recommended and decided ranks at that level.  The way my school handles the recommended/decided ranks for the color belts is when you test depending on how well you do during the test you can be promoted either to the next rank "recommended" or "decided".  If I understand it correctly the recommended ranks basically have all the material down, but need additional work on the technical aspects if that makes any sense. This is the first school I've studied at that uses that promotion structure, but from reading some of the other responses it sounds like it's fairly common.  I don't necessarily agree with the recommended/decided rank structure, either you pass the promotion test or you don't.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 15, 2011)

sfs982000 said:


> At the ATA school I attend the recommended/decided rank structure applies to everyone from orange belt to 2nd degree black belt. The only ranks that are mandatory for us to test for both recommended and decided ranks is 1st and 2nd degree and there are testing fees for both the recommended and decided ranks at that level. The way my school handles the recommended/decided ranks for the color belts is when you test depending on how well you do during the test you can be promoted either to the next rank "recommended" or "decided". If I understand it correctly the recommended ranks basically have all the material down, but need additional work on the technical aspects if that makes any sense. This is the first school I've studied at that uses that promotion structure, but from reading some of the other responses it sounds like it's fairly common. I don't necessarily agree with the recommended/decided rank structure, either you pass the promotion test or you don't.


Okay, so you pay for two dan testings at each dan.  

The OP stated that at his school there is a test for both rec and dec for each rank beginning with camo.  Including black, I think it came out to about eighteen tests in total from white to black.

My question to him is whether or not there is a fee for each test or if the fee is for the belt itself.  

Daniel


----------



## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, so you pay for two dan testings at each dan.
> 
> The OP stated that at his school there is a test for both rec and dec for each rank beginning with camo.  Including black, I think it came out to about eighteen tests in total from white to black.
> 
> ...



I think he said it was a fee for each test. Maybe I just read it that way because I a used to that kind of rank advancement.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 15, 2011)

granfire said:


> I think he said it was a fee for each test. Maybe I just read it that way because I a used to that kind of rank advancement.


He had said that there is a fee for each rank.  Are 6th geub recommended and 6th geub decided considered to be separate ranks?

If you're testing twice for each geub and paying twenty dollars or more for each test, that is an awful lot of financial expenditure over and above tuition.

Daniel


----------



## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> He had said that there is a fee for each rank.  Are 6th geub recommended and 6th geub decided considered to be separate ranks?
> 
> If you're testing twice for each geub and paying twenty dollars or more for each test, that is an awful lot of financial expenditure over and above tuition.
> 
> Daniel




Aye, I had 50 bucks every 2 month, times 2 (cos my kid took, too), comes down to 500 bucks til you look at BB, stretched over just under 2 years. In my case, anyhow.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 15, 2011)

granfire said:


> Aye, I had 50 bucks every 2 month, times 2 (cos my kid took, too), comes down to 500 bucks til you look at BB, stretched over just under 2 years. In my case, anyhow.


Does the ITA use recommended and decided ranks?

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 15, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> Thanks everyone!  I think the biggest thing people need to know is that the ATA is not a franchise, but is a license.  I am sure most of you know the difference between the two, but that allows all the schools to be different.  Main thing between us is that we use the same forms, our instructors are certified nationally, which is nice, and then of course the huge amount of tournaments that the ATA offers throughout the year.   Trust me, I know there are plenty of them that aren't up to par.  But, I also know there are a lot of other schools not affiliated with ATA that are just as bad, if not worse.



What exactly do you get with the license? Just the right to use the ATA name and forms plus access to ATA tournaments?  If so what was the appeal to go with ATA as opposed to KKW Taekwondo or any other TKD school?


----------



## sfs982000 (Mar 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, so you pay for two dan testings at each dan.
> 
> The OP stated that at his school there is a test for both rec and dec for each rank beginning with camo. Including black, I think it came out to about eighteen tests in total from white to black.
> 
> ...


 
The recommended and decided tests for 1st and 2nd degree are 2 seperate tests which we're required to pay for each exam.  I can only assume that a portion of the testing fees go towards the belt itself.  The leadership club members recieve a nice embroidered belt once they reach 1st degree decided, the black belt club members recieve a plain black belt.  Regarding your question concerning the testing fees, it sounds like the OP's school treats their color belt ranks similar to how my school does their Tiny Tiger program.  The younger kids are tested for both recommended and decided grades from white belt on up and there is a testing fee applied to both recommended and decided ranks, which substantially increases the number of tests you pay for depending on how old your kids are when they start studying.


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Does the ITA use recommended and decided ranks?
> 
> Daniel



Yes.  My niece was with the ITA originally before leaving for the ATA.  It was a seamless transition aside from learning new material.


----------



## Gorilla (Mar 15, 2011)

ATA fills a need for those who use the service.  In the area in which we live we have had some ATA people transfer over and by and large they just don't last.  They want to work hard but just don't seem to have the fortitude.  I have seen some with big talent great lead legs but they seem to have trouble getting hit.  We had one kid come and train with us and he was doing well for about 9 months but in the end was unable to stay focused over a long period of time.  All the ATA people have been very nice and good quality people but lacked the desire to stay on a top competition team.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 15, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Thought I'd introduce myself. I was searching for something online and came across this forum and after reading a couple of posts thought I'd love to join. I hope I can give some feedback on what the ATA is, does, and operates. Currently I'm a third degree and testing for fourth at world championships in June.
> 
> ...


 
Welcome...and why can't I bash the ATA

The Air Transport Association... I can't STAND those guys


----------



## Balrog (Mar 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I understand, the ATA has about the same number of belts as most other schools, which seems to be between ten and twelve these days (including white, ildan and dan bo).  I know that the ATA has recommended and decided versions of each belt.
> 
> Are there two separate tests (one for recommended and one for decided), each with associated testing fees?  Or does it work differently?


The recommended/decided ranks are used in a variety of ways.  The decided rank is 1/2 rank higher than the recommended.

For example, it is the "norm" in our school to promote a full rank at a time from White Belt up to Purple Belt.  At that point, the students slow down and promote a half-rank at a time because the material is more difficult and more things are covered.

However, let's say that I have a student do an absolute "walk-on-water" testing.  It is possible to promote that student a rank and a half, let's say from Orange Belt Rec. to Yellow Belt Dec.  At the same time, we might have a student who has put forth effort but isn't quite ready to promote.  We can bump him a half rank to Orange Belt Dec. and he spends another cycle on the material.

The testing fees are paid per test, not by the outcome of the test.  There is no difference in the testing fees paid until the First Degree Rec. and Second Degree Rec. tests, which are lower than the Dec. tests.


----------



## granfire (Mar 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Does the ITA use recommended and decided ranks?
> 
> Daniel




Well, it has been a while since I set foot in the school, they changed around more since I wasn't looking, but it used to be you had from green on 2 ranks. It was just not called recommended and decided. You had green and Sr Green for example. Nothing really changed except you had to do your stuff better at Sr lvl than as just plain color belt. So you spend about 4 month at a color in both ranks before you moved on to the next.

Now I think they added another lvl to each color (don't get me started, it also included only teaching half forms to jr students and ythe 2nd half at the 3rd lvl as I understood.)

Black belts they used to call it probationary, decided and senior, but then they made each rank into 4 lvls switching to a new form on the 3rd lvl. So you now have 1st degree lvl 1 (2, 3, 4) 2nd degree, lvl 1(2, 3, 4) etc...

(I can't quiet get my head wrapped around the new changes, I think they suck, but some people like them and claim they are good, but what do I know, my seniority in the art is not that great.)


----------



## Balrog (Mar 15, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Ok let me clear this up my point is this can a few do it sure but they are the exception not the rule. I cannot see any mature instructor making a 6-8 year old do the same test as the adults except if the adult test in waterdown.


Why not?  They present any required forms, spar however many rounds are required against people their own rank and age grouping (if possible) and break boards that are sized appropriately.  Why water the test down at all?


----------



## Balrog (Mar 15, 2011)

clfsean said:


> I want a limb from that money tree... yeesh...


Money tree?  I wish.  I should raise my testing fees.  The ITF school down the road from me charges $150 per colored belt test and they test about the same number of times that we do.  I only charge $60.

Besides, we don't get to keep it.  A big chunk goes into headquarters; that's how the HQ operation is funded.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> What exactly do you get with the license? Just the right to use the ATA name and forms plus access to ATA tournaments?  If so what was the appeal to go with ATA as opposed to KKW Taekwondo or any other TKD school?


The Songahm style of Taekwondo makes it worthwhile, not to mention the tremendous support that we get from the headquarters staff.


----------



## msmitht (Mar 15, 2011)

Balrog said:


> The Songahm style of Taekwondo makes it worthwhile, not to mention the tremendous support that we get from the headquarters staff.



What about the songahm style makes it worthwhile? I have seen many different types of tkd styles. Itf has good hyungs and the honor of being the first tkd system. Wtf/kkw is the largest world wide, has the best kickers and is an olympic sport (imagine charlie sheen "WINNING").
What does the songahm style offer that is original and or on par with the itf/wtf? Krav maga/hagannah from israel, tae bo/aerobic kickboxing, Xma from mike chat, ata mma (lol...well at least they are trying) and stick fighting from the philippines. It appears to me that ata schools are about  fads. 
When someone asks me about learning a martial art I push tkd. It is my first art and I teach/love it. If they tell me they want to learn bjj I send them to gracie barra. When they want to learn real sword play I send them to a kendo/fencing school. Unless the instructor has studied what they are offering for a long time, 4-10 years, they cannot possibly grasp how to teach it effectivley to others especially when it comes to teaching diverse age groups.
And having 6-7 year old black belts are why tkd has a bad rep...and is just plain wrong.


----------



## clfsean (Mar 16, 2011)

Balrog said:


> Money tree?  I wish.  I should raise my testing fees.  The ITF school down the road from me charges $150 per colored belt test and they test about the same number of times that we do.  I only charge $60.
> 
> Besides, we don't get to keep it.  A big chunk goes into headquarters; that's how the HQ operation is funded.



Wow... <insert joke referring to Madoff or Ponzi>

Maybe I should start testing... or just charging to teach period...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 16, 2011)

Balrog said:


> The ITF school down the road from me charges $150 per colored belt test and they test about the same number of times that we do.


I have two words.  IN SANE!!

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Mar 16, 2011)

Balrog said:


> The Songahm style of Taekwondo makes it worthwhile, not to mention the tremendous support that we get from the headquarters staff.


So then all you get is the right to use their style of TKD.  Does support cost extra?  In other words, if you need some marketing ideas can you call up HQ and they will send you some ad slicks that you can use or do you have to subscribe to their service in order to get that?  

From what you state here, it was the forms of ATA that prompted you to go with them as opposed to ITF or KKW.  Is my understanding correct?


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Mar 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Unless the instructor has studied what they are offering for a long time, 4-10 years, they cannot possibly grasp how to teach it effectivley to others especially when it comes to teaching diverse age groups.



I know this is off topic here, but while experience is helpful, I don't believe it necessary.  I remember when our KJN had opened the branch school where I teach now, he was traveling 70 miles to teach.  Obviously he could not come every class, so a 1st gup was teaching the class (approximately 3 years experience).  To take it one step further, at the beginning of the school the next highest rank at the branch school was a 7th gup.  He is now a 7th dan, and recalls teaching classes as a 7th gup, and while he admits it wasn't ideal, it was what was required at the time.  Anytime you are teaching someone of lower rank and experience, there is something to be offered and something to be learned (both ways).  

The school I began under had a similar situation, my Sahbumnim was travelling 45 miles to teach at the school I started under.  He had produced a couple of 1st dans, that happened to quit.  That left my father (a 3rd gup at the time) as the highest ranking student there.  He took over teaching, and we were travelling 45 miles once a week to receive instruction.  Now he is a 6th dan.  

While I see your point, I don't believe it is necessary to have 4-10 years of experience to adequately teach the art.  Is it helpful, yes, required, no.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 16, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I know this is off topic here, but while experience is helpful, I don't believe it necessary. I remember when our KJN had opened the branch school where I teach now, he was traveling 70 miles to teach. Obviously he could not come every class, so a 1st gup was teaching the class (approximately 3 years experience).


Yes, but in that scenario, you have a one-step-below-BB with three years experience running a class most of the time with a high dan coming in regularly.



SahBumNimRush said:


> To take it one step further, at the beginning of the school the next highest rank at the branch school was a 7th gup. He is now a 7th dan, and recalls teaching classes as a 7th gup, and while he admits it wasn't ideal, it was what was required at the time. Anytime you are teaching someone of lower rank and experience, there is something to be offered and something to be learned (both ways).


I've seen what happens when a 7th geub teaches.  No thank you.  I'm sure he got better, but I suspect that students he taught suffered in their development.  And if the school is charging 100 plus dollars per month plus testing fees, that is absolutely unacceptable.



SahBumNimRush said:


> The school I began under had a similar situation, my Sahbumnim was travelling 45 miles to teach at the school I started under. He had produced a couple of 1st dans, that happened to quit. That left my father (a 3rd gup at the time) as the highest ranking student there. He took over teaching, and we were travelling 45 miles once a week to receive instruction. Now he is a 6th dan.


But as you say, this was not an ideal situation.  You are bringing up example of 'in a pinch' with effort being made to rectify the situaiton.  

Regardless of organization, I suspect that most of the instructors of unusual or exotic add on arts are seminar trained and that the classes have been added for the express reason of retaining students past black belt.   



SahBumNimRush said:


> While I see your point, I don't believe it is necessary to have 4-10 years of experience to adequately teach the art. Is it helpful, yes, required, no.


Depends on the art.  For taebo or cardio kickboxing?  Of course not.  XMA isn't really a separate art, so I'd agree with you there.

Krav Maga and MMA, yes, I think that I'd like for the instructor to have about that amount.  For Krav Maga, I'd want them in Krav Maga as an art for some time prior to teaching it.  It has nothing to do with TKD.  Attending seminars, however, is what I suspect most add on Krav Maga instructors have for their credentials.

With MMA, again, I'd like the person to have enough experience in arts commonly used in MMA *plus* experience *in* MMA.  Again, not something that you can get from a seminar.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2011)

msmitht said:


> What about the songahm style makes it worthwhile?



I would imagine the majority of people just pick a school and go with it.  They don't research the various styles of TKD available and even if they did, the real content is close enough across styles to where I can't imagine it making much of a difference at all.  The sole exception is if someone wants to try Olympic rules competition.

Forms, kicking, sparring, one steps, some self-defense - you're pretty much going to get this diet anywhere you go.  I don't think the style of TKD is as important as the particular teacher/coach.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Mar 16, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but in that scenario, you have a one-step-below-BB with three years experience running a class most of the time with a high dan coming in regularly.



Yes, I suppose my experience is a bit different than the scenario proposed above. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I've seen what happens when a 7th geub teaches.  No thank you.  I'm sure he got better, but I suspect that students he taught suffered in their development.  And if the school is charging 100 plus dollars per month plus testing fees, that is absolutely unacceptable.


 
While I agree it's never a "good" idea, students were still learning something, albeit stunted as you say.  We have never been what I consider a commercial school, and have never charged even close to $100/month.  Maybe I should re-examine our fee schedule, haha!



Daniel Sullivan said:


> But as you say, this was not an ideal situation.  You are bringing up example of 'in a pinch' with effort being made to rectify the situaiton.



Exactly.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regardless of organization, I suspect that most of the instructors of unusual or exotic add on arts are seminar trained and that the classes have been added for the express reason of retaining students past black belt.


 
Yes, I agree.  The situations are completely different.  "Add ons" should never be taken lightly, and if you are going to be charging more money on top of you normal dues to learn these add ons, you better have a solid foundation.  



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Depends on the art.  For taebo or cardio kickboxing?  Of course not.  XMA isn't really a separate art, so I'd agree with you there.
> 
> Krav Maga and MMA, yes, I think that I'd like for the instructor to have about that amount.  For Krav Maga, I'd want them in Krav Maga as an art for some time prior to teaching it.  It has nothing to do with TKD.  Attending seminars, however, is what I suspect most add on Krav Maga instructors have for their credentials.
> 
> ...



I've witnessed people trying to bring in things they've learned from Krav Maga, MMA, etc. seminars, and none of it worked.  I whole heartedly agree with you on this one.  If you are trying to TEACH things that you picked up in a weekend seminar, chances are you're teaching something that isn't going to work and you don't fully understand.  

My biggest pet peeve is weapon defense coming from Krav Maga that someone picked up piece meal.  I'm sorry, but unless I know the instructor has extensive training in firearms defense, I'm not going to buy it.  Too much to risk there.. .  We've had black belts approach us in our school with these ideas in the past, and they've been shot down.  Many of our senior instructors are military (retired), LEO's, marshals, etc.. . People that have real experience in these things, but we only approach these topics in rare occasion in black belt classes.  It is still something that I don't feel confident about.

 I suppose I was responding to the blanket statement rather than the context of the statement.  I agree with the context, just not the totality of the statment.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 16, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I suppose I was responding to the blanket statement rather than the context of the statement. I agree with the context, just not the totality of the statment.


On the other hand, most other fields will require either a four year degree or a masters degree for a teaching position, and will probably want experience on top of that.  A school teacher is required to be a student for thirteen years, plus go to college as a student for an additional four to six years, before being able to be an assistant teacher for a period of time (I'm pretty sure that you aren't handed your own classroom right out of college).  

A high school PE teacher, at least in my area, will need at least a four year degree in PE. Again, this is after having been a student in school system for thirteen years plus four years plus of college.  

Put in that perspective, less than four years seems rather brief.  I suspect that the four year comment is based on many schools being four years to black belt.  In those that are not four years to black belt, four years puts you half way between second and third dan.

By contrast, in Japanese kendo, you are not considered an instructor until about fourth dan.  The equivalent to sabeom is usually higher than that.  Yes, there are kendo clubs with second and third dans instructing, but these instructors have a sensei of fourth dan or higher who most likely is visiting the club periodically (much like the scenario with your father).  But in Japanese kendo, you are usually looking at four years to black belt, and first kyu and higher grades require testing before a panel of judges from outside the school, so no dojo-dans.  

In taekwondo, the average seems to be two years, and the ATA seems to follow suit.  Chances are, an ATA instructor in ATA Krav Maga or stick fighting has much less time in the add on than they do in Songahm taekwondo.  

Auxilliary, Balrog, or anyone else ATA, at what rank is a Songahm practitioner considered eligible to instruct?  

And with the add ons, am I accurate in the notion that these are certifications picked up through seminars or substantially shorter periods of training time than the core art?

Daniel


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Mar 16, 2011)

rather than hijacking this thread, Carl was kind enough to jump the experience question over here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1375498&posted=1#post1375498


----------



## chrispillertkd (Mar 16, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Put in that perspective, less than four years seems rather brief. I suspect that the four year comment is based on many schools being four years to black belt. In those that are not four years to black belt, four years puts you half way between second and third dan.
> 
> By contrast, in Japanese kendo, you are not considered an instructor until about fourth dan. The equivalent to sabeom is usually higher than that. Yes, there are kendo clubs with second and third dans instructing, but these instructors have a sensei of fourth dan or higher who most likely is visiting the club periodically (much like the scenario with your father). But in Japanese kendo, you are usually looking at four years to black belt, and first kyu and higher grades require testing before a panel of judges from outside the school, so no dojo-dans.
> 
> In taekwondo, the average seems to be two years, and the ATA seems to follow suit. Chances are, an ATA instructor in ATA Krav Maga or stick fighting has much less time in the add on than they do in Songahm taekwondo.


 
Hmm, I'm not sure what you're using to qualify your statement of "In taekwondo the average seems to be two years..." but that is decidedly not the experience I have. 3 to 4 years to I dan is common from what I have seen. 

Like your statement regarding kendo, you're not considered an instructor until IV dan. You can end up teaching at a lesser rank but you can't actually be certified as an International Instructor until IV dan and that is required to rank students with the ITF. The bb's I have seen that run their own schools have either been 1) under a higher ranking instructor, or 2) at least having a relationship with the head of the national organization they belong to which is, if not strictly student-instructor, one where the senior is seen as a mentor to the junior. 

Using the above time to I dan as a guide that means most people will reach IV dan after around 10 years of continuous training, sometimes (usually?) more.

[edit: cross posting this in the new thread.] 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 16, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Hmm, I'm not sure what you're using to qualify your statement of "In taekwondo the average seems to be two years..." but that is decidedly not the experience I have. 3 to 4 years to I dan is common from what I have seen.


2-3, closer to 2 is common from what I have seen.  Perhaps it is a federation difference, though to read posts on the web, you'd think that the average time is about sixteen months.



chrispillertkd said:


> Like your statement regarding kendo, you're not considered an instructor until IV dan. You can end up teaching at a lesser rank but you can't actually be certified as an International Instructor until IV dan and that is required to rank students with the ITF. The bb's I have seen that run their own schools have either been 1) under a higher ranking instructor, or 2) at least having a relationship with the head of the national organization they belong to which is, if not strictly student-instructor, one where the senior is seen as a mentor to the junior.


You're getting bogged down in an unrelated topic, though your statement does support the 4-10 year statement made earlier.

My point was not to compare kendo to taekwondo, or to make a statement about who takes how long to get to black belt, but to support the comment made that instructors of add on arts should have four to ten years of experience in those arts.

There is a reason that fourth dan seems to be the general breaking point for 'certified instructors' and that is that fourth dan is eight to ten years of experience, first as a student, and then as an assistant instructor and perhaps even as a second or third dan running their own classes.  Just like that student going for his teaching degree likely interns and gains experience prior to earning their masters degree.  

Requiring four to ten years of experience to teach an unrelated art, who's movements and stances may be very different from those of TKD, is not at all unreasonable.  

Since we're talking ATA, from what I have seen from ATA posters and posts about the ATA, the average is apparently two years (I make no value judgement).  That being the case, a third dan instructor will have no more than five years in.  How much time can they have realistically spent in an add on art if they did not practice it prior to taking up TKD?  Likely not enough to be qualified to instruct a program of any meaningful value.

I'm generally not a fan of add on arts in organizations where instructors receive a 'certification' in the add on along the way.  I see these as money making gimmicks rather than meaningful enrichment.

Daniel


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 16, 2011)

So many questions so I will try to answer them all to the best of my ability. 

First, the ATA is very helpful.  We have a website that offers us quarterly material for camps, activities, seminars, new student specials and what not.  Very similar to MAIA.  You don't have to use the stuff but it's there, and done for you.  You change the date/time to fit your school, print it off and you have posters for events.  

Each quarter they break down marketing/instruction/management.  It's helpful.  If you have run a successful martial arts school it's a no brainer and a lot of it you would already be doing.  If you're not as business savvy or just busy, it's a great resource.  I use the banners/posters all the time.  So much easier than reinventing the wheel.

Ok, instructors. 

The ATA has an instructor manual that is given to students when they decide they want to start being an instructor.  Students beginning to train in their collar are given a red collar to start with.  This is considered an instructor trainee. 

There are three levels after that:
Red/Black - Level 1
Black/Red/Black - Level 2
Black Collar. - Level 3 (Certified)

Students who test for red/black have to know all the curriculum from white belt-yellow belt. Level 2 is knowing everything from white to purple belt and level 3. certified is doing all of the color belt curriculum and up to what ever rank of black belt you are. To add on, not only curriculum but also class room management skills and teaching concepts.

Most of these tests are done nationally through the ATA.  ATA does allow your instructor to certify you for the first 2 levels if they have done the proper training and have the proper rank.  To be certified black collar you have to either do it at a national event or have it done by someone who is a master.  

To be a level 3 certified instructor you have to be the minimum age of 18 and have completed the previous two levels.  Again, every ATA school is different in what they allow and not allow to teach at their school.  This is not only ATA as I can imagine.

Some schools may allow a red/black collar to teach some classes, some may allow a red collar.  A lot of time students/instructors will know past the curriculum they are "collared" for but since you are only allowed to test one collar per time it takes a while to get Black.  

After you receive your Black Collar you are supposed to recertify.  This has to be done before you can test for your next rank.  

I hope that clearly answers the question.  Mainly, the ATA has training, a rank system, and a manual for instruction.


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 17, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> The ATA has an instructor manual that is given to students when they decide they want to start being an instructor.  Students beginning to train in their collar are given a red collar to start with.  This is considered an instructor trainee.
> 
> There are three levels after that:
> Red/Black - Level 1
> ...



OK, so can you be a master (6th Dan in ATA, right?) and not be a certified instructor?  If not, are you restricted from becoming a master until you certify, or automatically certified upon reaching a certain grade?  If you can be a master but not instructor certified, are you not allowed to teach.  Does the same apply to an 8th Dan, for example, if they are uncertified?

Thanks for the info...


----------



## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> OK, so can you be a master (6th Dan in ATA, right?) and not be a certified instructor?  If not, are you restricted from becoming a master until you certify, or automatically certified upon reaching a certain grade?  If you can be a master but not instructor certified, are you not allowed to teach.  Does the same apply to an 8th Dan, for example, if they are uncertified?



I'd like to know myself.  I had the impression that promotion in the ATA after a certain rank was dependent on you running a school and promoting a certain ratio of students yourself.  Thus, a person who just wants to practice and improve themselves could not advance.  Likewise if you're not a school or club owner, but you are a senior BB in a school, you also could not advance beyond a certain point.

Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 17, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'd like to know myself.  I had the impression that promotion in the ATA after a certain rank was dependent on you running a school and promoting a certain ratio of students yourself.  Thus, a person who just wants to practice and improve themselves could not advance.



I see another reason for wanting to advance in rank but not run a school - if you don't have time to run your own school, instead choosing to spend your time helping various schools in your country (and other countries) improve.  I know my Grandmaster prefers that path and it would have been a great shame if he'd been denied higher grades because he didn't have his own school.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 17, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> So many questions so I will try to answer them all to the best of my ability.
> 
> First, the ATA is very helpful. We have a website that offers us quarterly material for camps, activities, seminars, new student specials and what not. Very similar to MAIA. You don't have to use the stuff but it's there, and done for you. You change the date/time to fit your school, print it off and you have posters for events.
> 
> ...


 
I would like to know the answer to the question a few pages ago, that is a simple one that has not been address yet or I have not seen it. How much does everything cost that is up in the list above? I am being told that they are not a money making machine so is all these services ofered to you for free? I know NAPMA and other groups are making money selling this stuff. How much does each collar stripe cost and I would imagine a new uniform as well since the collar has been changed? How much is it to get certified so you can become ancertified instructor? Believe me not trying to kill the ATA because all orgs need to make money but I am being told that they are not this money making machine when the ATA scool down the street is telling me it is about making nothing but money and if he would have known what he knows today he would have never bought into them 20 plus years ago.


----------



## auxiliary (Mar 17, 2011)

You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree.  I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.  

Ok, I am getting into an area I don't know 100% because I am not that rank so I will try my best to get it.  Once you get fourth degree you have to have leadership points to test past that.  Maybe it's 5th degree.  There are a bunch of options to get leadership points.  Some include, judging at a tournament, going to seminars, participating in events, having students and juniors under you.  I know there are more, but I don't know exactly what they are.  So you can see here you can still get points needed to test from not having a school.  Again, I'm not in this situation so I could be wrong on some of the facts. 

You do pay ATA a fee.  It normally comes out from our testing fees.  The collar testings are a fee.  Normally around $100 or so.  The level three is a little bit more.  You do not pay extra from using the resources that ATA offers us.  

If that guy doesn't like the ATA I don't know why he's still in it.  Why be in something and complain the entire time?


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 17, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree.  I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.



OK, so at some point in the structure you have to be a certified instructor as well as your rank and you have to get points and pass some course to be certified.

That's very interesting, thank you for posting.


----------



## hungryninja (Mar 17, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I would like to know the answer to the question a few pages ago, that is a simple one that has not been address yet or I have not seen it. How much does everything cost that is up in the list above? I am being told that they are not a money making machine so is all these services ofered to you for free? I know NAPMA and other groups are making money selling this stuff. How much does each collar stripe cost and I would imagine a new uniform as well since the collar has been changed? How much is it to get certified so you can become ancertified instructor? Believe me not trying to kill the ATA because all orgs need to make money but I am being told that they are not this money making machine when the ATA scool down the street is telling me it is about making nothing but money and if he would have known what he knows today he would have never bought into them 20 plus years ago.


 
Former ATA instructor here (was in it for over 20 years).  I hope to chip in what I know:  I believe some of that information regarding regional instructor camps can be readily found on ATA's website.  I'm not sure how much the license fees are though.  ATA HQ does get a chunk of the testing fees.  You don't necessarily need a new uniform, you can just sew the collar stripes on your current uniform.  ATA makes money, but as with any other org or business, that is not their only goal.


----------



## hungryninja (Mar 17, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree. I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.
> 
> Ok, I am getting into an area I don't know 100% because I am not that rank so I will try my best to get it. Once you get fourth degree you have to have leadership points to test past that. Maybe it's 5th degree. There are a bunch of options to get leadership points. Some include, judging at a tournament, going to seminars, participating in events, having students and juniors under you. I know there are more, but I don't know exactly what they are. So you can see here you can still get points needed to test from not having a school. Again, I'm not in this situation so I could be wrong on some of the facts.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, once you're a 4th degree, in order to test for higher rank you need the points.  You don't have to be a school owner, but it is very difficult for a non-school owner (especially if one is not a chief instructor of a school) to get those points in a timely manner.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 17, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree. I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.
> 
> Ok, I am getting into an area I don't know 100% because I am not that rank so I will try my best to get it. Once you get fourth degree you have to have leadership points to test past that. Maybe it's 5th degree. There are a bunch of options to get leadership points. Some include, judging at a tournament, going to seminars, participating in events, having students and juniors under you. I know there are more, but I don't know exactly what they are. So you can see here you can still get points needed to test from not having a school. Again, I'm not in this situation so I could be wrong on some of the facts.
> 
> ...


 
What I understand is he is in a legal battle with them, he is doing everything trying to cut ties. I am not sure about why he is in this battle but he says he is and he cannot wait to be away from them.

Now for me I am not saying it is good or bad, every single business needs to make money so I do not have a problem with it. I do have a problem with how soft the ATA schools are around me, but like you said that is not every school and I will take your word on this because I know there are bad schools and instructor in every org. I am asking becaus eI hear so much negativaty about them from so many past people and you are here to answer and make us aware of good ATA school and I personally thank you for that.:asian:


----------



## Balrog (Mar 19, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> So then all you get is the right to use their style of TKD.  Does support cost extra?  In other words, if you need some marketing ideas can you call up HQ and they will send you some ad slicks that you can use or do you have to subscribe to their service in order to get that?
> 
> From what you state here, it was the forms of ATA that prompted you to go with them as opposed to ITF or KKW.  Is my understanding correct?


ATA provides marketing materials to us.  All we have to do is download it.

I started originally in GM Jhoon Rhee's organization, learning the Chang Hon forms (Chon-ji, etc.).  The Songahm style forms are more complex and build upon one another.  I prefer them, but YMMV.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 19, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> OK, so can you be a master (6th Dan in ATA, right?) and not be a certified instructor?  If not, are you restricted from becoming a master until you certify, or automatically certified upon reaching a certain grade?  If you can be a master but not instructor certified, are you not allowed to teach.  Does the same apply to an 8th Dan, for example, if they are uncertified?
> 
> Thanks for the info...


No.  ATA's philosophy follows the guideline that rank carries responsibility.  If you want higher rank, you have to step up and shoulder more responsibility, so you are not allowed to test for 3rd Degree unless you have become at least a trainee instructor.  You are not allowed to test for 4th Degree unless you have made at least level 1 certification.  You are not allowed to test for 5th Degree unless you are a level 3, fully certified instructor.  

A Master is an instructor of instructors, so it makes sense that you have to be an instructor first.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 19, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'd like to know myself.  I had the impression that promotion in the ATA after a certain rank was dependent on you running a school and promoting a certain ratio of students yourself.  Thus, a person who just wants to practice and improve themselves could not advance.  Likewise if you're not a school or club owner, but you are a senior BB in a school, you also could not advance beyond a certain point.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong.


ATA was trying to find a way to "remove the politics" from the testing requirements and make it performance based.  They started by using the number of students in your testing lineage (your school plus all your juniors school).  They have since refined that to a point accumulation system (90 points per year for every year of rank), where your testing numbers provide a percentage of the point requirement and you earn the rest through activities: judging at tournaments, attending continuing education seminars, serving as guest judges at other schools' testings, etc.

For non-school owners, it is assumed that they are teaching in the school(s), so the promotional requirement for them is based on the school owner.  They are "credited" with the percentage of points from the school owner's testing numbers, but they have to earn the rest on their own.  For example, if I have a 3rd Degree who wants to test for 4th and I am pulling down 50 points a year for testing numbers,  then to make his 270 required  points, he would have to earn 40 points a year on his own.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 19, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I would like to know the answer to the question a few pages ago, that is a simple one that has not been address yet or I have not seen it. How much does everything cost that is up in the list above? I am being told that they are not a money making machine so is all these services ofered to you for free?


A lot of services are free, but not all.  Sure, there are costs, but they are not (IMNSHO) exorbitant.  Certification camps run about $450, but given that you have plenty of lead time for them, you can earmark the money over the course of a year.


> ... but I am being told that they are not this money making machine when the ATA scool down the street is telling me it is about making nothing but money and if he would have known what he knows today he would have never bought into them 20 plus years ago.


Please don't confuse bad business practices with the style of Taekwondo.  Yes, we have some money-grubbers; any large organization does.  Unfortunately, it's the money-grubbers that give any organization a bad name.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 20, 2011)

Balrog said:


> A lot of services are free, but not all. Sure, there are costs, but they are not (IMNSHO) exorbitant. Certification camps run about $450, but given that you have plenty of lead time for them, you can earmark the money over the course of a year.
> 
> Please don't confuse bad business practices with the style of Taekwondo. Yes, we have some money-grubbers; any large organization does. Unfortunately, it's the money-grubbers that give any organization a bad name.


 

I appreciate your responses and accept them, I wish he did not have such a bad experience with them. I always keep an open mind abouit orgs because you never know who you may meet and become friends with. I am glad you have had a great experience withthe ATA, it helps hearing positive feedback as well.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 20, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I appreciate your responses and accept them, I wish he did not have such a bad experience with them. I always keep an open mind abouit orgs because you never know who you may meet and become friends with. I am glad you have had a great experience withthe ATA, it helps hearing positive feedback as well.


Thank you!
<bowing while typing>


----------



## andyjeffries (Mar 21, 2011)

Balrog said:


> No.  ATA's philosophy follows the guideline that rank carries responsibility.  If you want higher rank, you have to step up and shoulder more responsibility, so you are not allowed to test for 3rd Degree unless you have become at least a trainee instructor.  You are not allowed to test for 4th Degree unless you have made at least level 1 certification.  You are not allowed to test for 5th Degree unless you are a level 3, fully certified instructor.



Thank you for that.  It's very interesting.



Balrog said:


> A Master is an instructor of instructors, so it makes sense that you have to be an instructor first.



So given this philosophy, is there ever a rank where you are not allowed to hold it unless you've ranked a student to one of these "instructor levels"?  What I mean is, for example, are you only allowed to hold an 8th Dan when one of your students has been accepted as a level 1 instructor?  If you're an instructor of instructors, is that enforced?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 21, 2011)

auxiliary said:


> You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree. I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.
> 
> Ok, I am getting into an area I don't know 100% because I am not that rank so I will try my best to get it. Once *you get fourth degree you have to have leadership points to test past that.* Maybe it's 5th degree. There are a bunch of options to get leadership points. Some include, judging at a tournament, going to seminars, participating in events, having students and juniors under you. I know there are more, but I don't know exactly what they are. So you can see here you can still get points needed to test from not having a school. Again, I'm not in this situation so I could be wrong on some of the facts.
> 
> ...


What are leadership points and how are they accrued?

Daniel


----------



## hungryninja (Mar 21, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What are leadership points and how are they accrued?
> 
> Daniel


 
You need a certain # of leadership points/credit in order to test for higher rank (5th or higher).  You can earn them through various ways: testing numbers, new member numbers, tournament judging (regionals, nat'ls, worlds), regional testing judge, instructor camps, protech camps, business seminars, instruction seminars, program/mat'l development, overseas activities (list above are ATA hosted).  You must also satisfy time in rank (points are earned throughout this time).


----------



## Balrog (Mar 21, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> So given this philosophy, is there ever a rank where you are not allowed to hold it unless you've ranked a student to one of these "instructor levels"?  What I mean is, for example, are you only allowed to hold an 8th Dan when one of your students has been accepted as a level 1 instructor?  If you're an instructor of instructors, is that enforced?


Not per se.  The masters, senior masters, etc. are the ones who run things like the instructor certification camps, training seminars, etc., but there is no direct requirement that masters have certified instructors under them.  But by the time you make 6th Degree and go through the Master's training, you're looking at 15-20 years of teaching and it's almost impossible to not have produced several certified instructors in that time.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 21, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What are leadership points and how are they accrued?
> 
> Daniel


The requirement is to earn 90 points a year for each year of your mandatory time in rank.  For example, 4th Degree has to have 4 years in rank before testing for 5th and during that time needs to earn at least 360 points.

Points are earned by looking at the number of students testing in your lineage, your tournament judging activity, being a testing judge in other schools, seminars attended, etc.  If you are active in the association, it's difficult to not earn the points.  For example, when I put in my application to test for 6th Degree, I needed 450 points.  I submitted a total of 657 and I'm sure some slipped through the cracks.


----------

