# Chung Do Kwan and KKW



## CDKJudoka (Jan 8, 2009)

I am part of a CDK dojang, with an Association that is run by the GM. Now, I noticed that he, or his instructors aren't KKW certified, not that it matters. I was just curious on a few things.

1: How many CDK practitioners here are KKW certified?

2: Does it really make a difference? 


I have noticed that this style of TKD is very different from WTF or ITF for that matter, save the forms. We use ITF forms, but with lower stances and no Sine Wave.

This is my first exposure to CDK and I have to say that I love it. My Sabumnim even makes references to Shotokan, and some of the other forms that they use are Pinans. The only really difference I can see between us and Shotokan is the kicks. 

Thanks guys!!


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## Manny (Jan 8, 2009)

KKW certification matters? Hummmm..... I am a black belt without KKW certification and really does not matter to me believe me. My formation from white belt to black belt 1dan was on JiDo Kwan my master was by KKW, my present sambunim is a 7dan black belt and he is certified by KKW, I think the certification is important (but not completly necesary) to run a Dojan.

I know sambunins in my city tha are not certified by KKW and are good teachers.

Manny


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## IcemanSK (Jan 8, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> I am part of a CDK dojang, with an Association that is run by the GM. Now, I noticed that he, or his instructors aren't KKW certified, not that it matters. I was just curious on a few things.
> 
> 1: How many CDK practitioners here are KKW certified?
> 
> ...


 
Hey DarkPhoenix,

I've been having a similar conversation in my head in the last day. I've noticed the same thing about some CDK dojang are "pre-KKW" & some are "post-KKW." I would imagine it has to do how close your lineage was to the formation to the WTF/KKW in the early 70's.

I'm KKW certified. My GM's, GM's, GM (or great-great grandmaster, if you will) is Uhm, Woon Kyu  (head of World CDK & president of the KKW). His student is Park, Hae Man  (one of the designers of the Tae Guek poomsae). My GM was one of the few foreign instructors involved in the early stages of the KKW. For me, Kukkiwon certification is strongly encouraged, but not mandatory. 

I would suppose if one was a student of GM Son, Duk Sung who had already forged his own path by the time the uniting of the Kwans happened, the KKW would not be important to him. I suspect this was the case for Jhoon Rhee and others as well.


Some of the Chung Do Kwan masters that go back to the 50's & 60's, may have seen no benefit in joining together with other Kwans. Some saw benefits. Maybe it was "making a new way" vs. "maintaining the old ways" for some. "What's wrong with the pyong ahns & Pal Sek?" vs. "Let's join with the other Kwans & create distinctly unique TKD forms." 

There is much debate as to whether it makes a difference or not. I can only speak for myself. From where I stand, I don't see a downside to being KKW certified. Perhaps if it's not what your GM (or his/her GM) saw as important, it's not important. I wouldn't try to convince CDK who's GM doesn't have a KKW cert. that they "need to" have one. In fact, I'm curious about the older forms that a lot of other CDK schools do. I sometimes think I'm missing out on some things.


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## wade (Jan 9, 2009)

Hey dark, if it is not important then why are you asking? I trained under instructors of Son Duk Sung and Joon Rhee and no they weren't KKW so you don't need to be either. No sweat, relax and go about your training. Ummm, wait, they didn't have cell phones nor the INTERNET either. Well, once again, no sweat, just give those up and you are good to go. Fortunately nothing ever changes. OTOH, if you want to progress and be recognized for what you have accomplished and where you are, maybe, just maybe, in my very extremely humble opinion, if your are TKD you might want to contemplate the WTF and the KKW. MAYBE...........

That being said, no, it does not make a difference on what kind of instructor you are. I have met a few KKW certified instructor that really suck and I have also met some non-certified instructors that were really great. 

OK, so  I lied on that last line, they sucked too.


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## CDKJudoka (Jan 9, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. It doesn't really matter to me either way. I was just curious. I know my GM, GM Shin, Hyun Ok, is old guard. His GM was the CDK founder so I am pretty sure he went the traditional route. We have our own forms, plus we use the Chang Hon Tuls and the old Pinans.


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## miguksaram (Jan 9, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Thanks for the replies. It doesn't really matter to me either way. I was just curious. I know my GM, GM Shin, Hyun Ok, is old guard. His GM was the CDK founder so I am pretty sure he went the traditional route. We have our own forms, plus we use the Chang Hon Tuls and the old Pinans.


 
First of all let me say that it doesn't matter either way.   As long as you are happy with you are teaching, the enjoy.  I say this because the next statement is going to sound like I'm pushing KKW.

If your GM's GM was the CDK founder and you want to forge along the same path then you should be part of the KKW and I'm surprised if GM Shin isn't KKW if he truly followed GM Lee.  GM Lee, Won-kuk was one of the pioneers and founding memebers that help develop TKD.  Nothing wrong with practicing the old forms and what not, but if you want to forge along the same path as the founder then KKW is the path you need to be on.


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## Spookey (Jan 10, 2009)

Bare in mind the reality...previously someone mentioned Pre-Kukkiwon and Post-Kukkiwon Chung Do Kwan.

Chung Do Kwan prior to the formation of the Kukkiwon was a system of martial arts that derived from Shotokan Karate (Won Kuk Lee the founder was a student of Gichin Funakoshi). 

As with all the other kwans (which in a since where all independent martial systems) there was either a Chinese or Japanese influence with a Korean flare for foot techniques. Besides this they where seperated by the Kwan Jang's personal theory or philosophy.

Once the kwans "merged" they lost their independence and became what is now known as "Kukki Taekwondo". Therefore, according to the standard of the Kukkiwon there is one shared poomse, theory, and philosophy shared among them all. Therefore the independent kwan is no more (ie: Post Kukkiwon Chung Do Kwan) yet has been absorbed to become Kukki Taekwondo.

Furthermore, per the Kukkiwon the Kwans that still certify and offer letters of appointment (under the kwan name) are merely offering admission to their "Social Friendship Clubs".

The truth be told (and is known the world over) in Korea the Kukkiwon through governmental influence has the ability to contain indepenent action. Therefore, many of the Kwan leaders and seniors are coming to the America's and Canada to continue the traditions of their Kwan without being mandated to teach "Kukki Taekwondo". Also, there is a drive in Korea to resurrect the indepenent Kwan(s). This is the reason several of the Kwans have again begun to issue certification and letters of appointment from the kwan. This is in defiance of the Kukkiwon and KTA! 

In close I conclude that a Chung Do Kwan (or any other traditional kwan) Instructor need not have Kukkiwon Certification to show his validity because they are not of the same Taekwondo, but rather different branches of the same tree! 



> If your GM's GM was the CDK founder and you want to forge along the same path then you should be part of the KKW and I'm surprised if GM Shin isn't KKW if he truly followed GM Lee. GM Lee, Won-kuk was one of the pioneers and founding memebers that help develop TKD. Nothing wrong with practicing the old forms and what not, but if you want to forge along the same path as the founder then KKW is the path you need to be on.



Would the author of this quote please explain? Once you have explained would you also elaborate on Won Kuk Lee's final years!

Regards,
Spookey


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## YoungMan (Jan 10, 2009)

I have Chung Do Kwan and Kukkiwon certificates, both signed by Mr. Um, and neither say "Friendship Club".

My 3rd Dan certificate is Chung Do Kwan is signed by Mr. Uhm, and there is nothing about a social club on it.


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## Miles (Jan 10, 2009)

The Chung Do Kwan fully supports the Kukkiwon.  How could it not?  The president of the Chung Do Kwan since 1959 is also president of Kukkiwon.  One of the main "faces" of the Chung Do Kwan is GM Park, Hae Man, formerly the main instructor at the Kukkiwon.  Another of the "faces" of the Kukkiwon is GM Lee, Kyu Hyung, the man who put together the TKD demonstration at the 1988 Olympics and head coach of the Korean National team at the first WTF Poomsae Championshiops.  GM Lee is of Chung Do Kwan lineage. 

When we first hosted GM Park, he and his lovely wife came to my house and we migrated eventually to my basement where I have the "Miguk Kukkiwon." 

My wife had put my Kukkiwon dan certificate and my Kukkiwon Certificate of Qualification (3rd class Instructor).  GM Park looked very closely at those certificates and smiled.

When we had a social moment, GM Park told my black belts and I that we need to continue to support the Kukkiwon.  He was aware that I do not issue my own private dan certificates, just Kukkiwon certificates.  He told us the Chung Do Kwan supports the Kukkiwon.  He gave me authority to recommend my students for Chung Do Kwan certificates when I recommend them for their Kukkiwon dan certificates.

BTW, here is a link to Chung Do Kwan's official website (though it is in Hangul):
http://www.wtch.co.kr/

There is nothing wrong with studying pre-KKW TKD regardless of Kwan lineage.  But the present day Chung Do Kwan supports the Kukkiwon curriculum 100%.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks for this Miles! It's too bad the CDK website isn't available in English.

Can anyone translate Hangul?!


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## Spookey (Jan 10, 2009)

Dear all,

Please re-read my post for clarification. I simply stated the "Social Friendship Club" as the view point of the Kukkiwon. 

The Kukkiwon movement of the early seventies was to unite the kwans into ONE unified Taekwondo. Read there website and history for yourself.

My question is this...If the Chung Do Kwan (or any of the other original nine kwans of what is now Kukkiwon) "fully support the Kukkiwon", why do they issue seperate certificates? 

Please read article #3 of the Kukkiwon 
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01

If they (Chung Do Kwan) fully support the Kukkiwon then why offer certification of Dan rank when the official article #3 of Kukkiwon tellls us they (Kukkiwon) have the supreme and exclusive rights over dan promotion tests?

Please dont take this as argumentative, I am simply offering my point of view and observing that of others for the sake of greater understanding!

Regards,
Spookey


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## CDKJudoka (Jan 10, 2009)

This is all great info for me. The curriculum at the school I am at doesn't look like a KKW/WTF curriculum at all. They only KKW form that we do is Koryo and Tae Baek, and the rest are Pinan (Pyung An) forms and custom forms.


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## exile (Jan 10, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> This is all great info for me. The curriculum at the school I am at doesn't look like a KKW/WTF curriculum at all. They only KKW form that we do is Koryo and Tae Baek, and the rest are Pinan (Pyung An) forms and custom forms.



Very interesting, DkPh! Can you tell us a bit about your school, where the lineage goes back to? You're not Song Moo Kwan by any chance, are you?

PS... and if someone has an answer for Spookey's entirely reasonable question, it would be _very_ welcome!


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## CDKJudoka (Jan 10, 2009)

exile said:


> Very interesting, DkPh! Can you tell us a bit about your school, where the lineage goes back to? You're not Song Moo Kwan by any chance, are you?
> 
> PS... and if someone has an answer for Spookey's entirely reasonable question, it would be _very_ welcome!



Our Kwan Jang Nim is Shin, Hyun Ok. As far as I can tell, his GM was Lee, Won-Kuk. GM Lee is the signature on his 9th Dan certificate. And we are definitely CDK not SMK. GM Shin is the head of his own CDK association, United Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan Association. It seems to be mostly an NE US association of school in NY, NJ, CT, PA and MA. As I have heard from GM and Sa Bum Nim, GM Shin has taught many people, including being the one to issue Richard Abarathy is Chodan in CDK.


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## exile (Jan 10, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Our Kwan Jang Nim is Shin, Hyun Ok. As far as I can tell, his GM was Lee, Won-Kuk. GM Lee is the signature on his 9th Dan certificate. And we are definitely CDK not SMK. GM Shin is the head of his own CDK association, United Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan Association. It seems to be mostly an NE US association of school in NY, NJ, CT, PA and MA. As I have heard from GM and Sa Bum Nim, GM Shin has taught many people, including being the one to issue Richard Abarathy is Chodan in CDK.



So it looks like you really are Kwan-era CDK... kind of a rogue outfit that didn't go along with the Kwan merger/dissolution (something that I view as imposed from above by the ROK military regime, starting with Syng-man Rhee). Our SMK school is something similar.


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## CDKJudoka (Jan 10, 2009)

exile said:


> So it looks like you really are Kwan-era CDK... kind of a rogue outfit that didn't go along with the Kwan merger/dissolution (something that I view as imposed from above by the ROK military regime, starting with Syng-man Rhee). Our SMK school is something similar.




That would make sense, especially considering if you walked into our Dojang, you would think it was a Shotokan school, save the Korean Flag, the Korean Terms being used, and the V-Neck dobaks. I got my friend involved after nearly 30 years of dong Goju0Ryu, and he was very impressed with it. He was worried that it would be like every other TKD school in the area (Olympic or McDojang).

OT, where in Columbus is your Dojang? I used to live out near Westerville.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 10, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> This is all great info for me. The curriculum at the school I am at doesn't look like a KKW/WTF curriculum at all. They only KKW form that we do is Koryo and Tae Baek, and the rest are Pinan (Pyung An) forms and custom forms.


 

It's interesting to me that your school would do Koryo & Tae Baek. Why would they do those 2 forms, but no other KKW forms? I'd be interested in how that came to be.


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## Miles (Jan 10, 2009)

Spookey said:


> If they (Chung Do Kwan) fully support the Kukkiwon then why offer certification of Dan rank when the official article #3 of Kukkiwon tellls us they (Kukkiwon) have the supreme and exclusive rights over dan promotion tests?
> 
> Please dont take this as argumentative, I am simply offering my point of view and observing that of others for the sake of greater understanding!
> 
> ...



This is an excellent question.  The Kwans (Song Moo Kwan, Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Han Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won, Chang Moo Kwan, Ohdokwan, and Jung Do Kwan) came together under the Kwan Unity Act in August 1978.  At that time the various Kwan Jang agreed that they would support the Kukkiwon and recognize only Kukkiwond dan certificates.

The Kwans exist today primarily as fraternal organizations.  Outside of Korea, the Kwan connection seems particularly strong because of the relationship the various instructors had when they came up through the ranks.  The framework of the Kwans allowed for many non-Koreans to get promoted through the Kukkiwon ranks.  I have been told most Korean Taekwondoin under the age of 30 don't even know their Kwan lineage.

About 4 weeks ago, I had the good fortune to attend a training session with Professor Jung, Kuk Hyun, 88 Olympic gold medallist and one of the 2 models for the WTF's dvd poomsae series.  At that session, I spoke with Master Al Cole who is very involved with his Kwan.  He has created a very nice website which mentions the current Kwan/Kukkiwon relationship:
www.taekwondojidokwan.com

At the end of the session, Master Cole mentioned to Prof Jung that I have a Chung Do Kwan lineage.  Prof Jung said he was also Chung Do Kwan. 

DarkPhoenix, your signature has the Chung Do Kwan Oath.  That is the same Oath my students and I recite after each class.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 10, 2009)

Miles said:


> This is an excellent question. The Kwans (Song Moo Kwan, Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Han Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won, Chang Moo Kwan, Ohdokwan, and Jung Do Kwan) came together under the Kwan Unity Act in August 1978. At that time the various Kwan Jang agreed that they would support the Kukkiwon and recognize only Kukkiwond dan certificates.
> 
> The Kwans exist today primarily as fraternal organizations. Outside of Korea, the Kwan connection seems particularly strong because of the relationship the various instructors had when they came up through the ranks. The framework of the Kwans allowed for many non-Koreans to get promoted through the Kukkiwon ranks. I have been told most Korean Taekwondoin under the age of 30 don't even know their Kwan lineage.
> 
> ...


 
So Miles, if the CDK & other Kwan exist today as primarily social organizations, what is the purpose of getting a Kwan certificate? Does it have significance beyond the fraternal/historical connections?


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## Miles (Jan 10, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> So Miles, if the CDK & other Kwan exist today as primarily social organizations, what is the purpose of getting a Kwan certificate? Does it have significance beyond the fraternal/historical connections?



IMHO, I think the purpose of getting/giving the Kwan certificate is to show your students your respect to your instructor, and your instructor's instructor.  Taekwondo begins and ends with respect.  My instructor trained in Korea before there was a Kukkiwon.  He is 100% pro-Chung Do Kwan and since the Chung Do Kwan supports the Kukkiwon, he is 100% pro-Kukkiwon.


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## CDKJudoka (Jan 10, 2009)

Miles said:


> DarkPhoenix, your signature has the Chung Do Kwan Oath.  That is the same Oath my students and I recite after each class.



Yes, and that is the reason why I put it there, because it means a lot to me in the way it is taught and perceived by it's practitioners. We recite it before every class after bowing in. Next time I see my GM, I am going to ask him his thoughts of the KKW. And everything that I have read makes CDK out to me nothing more than a social fraternity outside of the KKW, where it has been absorbed. I count myself as fortunate that my girlfriend found this dojang. It has rekindled what I had felt when I got into TKD to begin with. Thanks again guys for all of your replies. This has been a great learning experience for me. Keep them coming.


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## exile (Jan 10, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> OT, where in Columbus is your Dojang? I used to live out near Westerville.



We've used the Tuttle Rec Center in the OSU campus area for the last six years or more.. but we're in trouble with that now, because the city, due the severe budget crunch that a lot of municipalities are experiencing, has opted to close a dozen of its rec centers, and Tuttle is one of them. We're kind of a 'regional campus' of the Little Star dojang in Hilliard, where my instructor, Allan Shirley is the ex officio head instructor, but it's not clear what our fate is going to be now that we're in danger of losing our (incredibly spacious!) training venue... have to see how this whole budget thing plays out.

And yes: our TKD is quite Shotokan-ish too (though we use the TKD open-hip kicking techs)... but then, Song Moo Kwan is essentially a near-direct translation of Shoto Kan into Korean, so it's not really a surprise, eh?


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## Windsinger (Jan 11, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> Thanks for this Miles! It's too bad the CDK website isn't available in English.
> 
> Can anyone translate Hangul?!


Been following this thread with great interest. A very interesting read, everyone!

While not perfect, IcemanSK, and while it translates only the typed text and not the text on graphics, here's the Babel Fish translation for you.


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## Miles (Jan 11, 2009)

exile said:


> We've used the Tuttle Rec Center in the OSU campus area for the last six years or more.. but we're in trouble with that now, because the city, due the severe budget crunch that a lot of municipalities are experiencing, has opted to close a dozen of its rec centers, and Tuttle is one of them. We're kind of a 'regional campus' of the Little Star dojang in Hilliard, where my instructor, Allan Shirley is the ex officio head instructor, but it's not clear what our fate is going to be now that we're in danger of losing our (incredibly spacious!) training venue... have to see how this whole budget thing plays out.
> 
> And yes: our TKD is quite Shotokan-ish too (though we use the TKD open-hip kicking techs)... but then, Song Moo Kwan is essentially a near-direct translation of Shoto Kan into Korean, so it's not really a surprise, eh?



First and foremost Exile, I sure hope that your dojang is able to survive this budget-crunch adversity.  The same thing is happening in the Detroit area which is also suffering from a rather difficult economy.

The thread is primarily about the Chung Do Kwan, but you may know that the founder of the Song Moo Kwan, GM Ro, Byung Jik, was a student with GM Lee, Won Kuk at the Shotokan.  When both men were back in Korea after WWII, GM Ro was an instructor at the Chung Do Kwan.


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## exile (Jan 11, 2009)

Miles said:


> First and foremost Exile, I sure hope that your dojang is able to survive this budget-crunch adversity.  The same thing is happening in the Detroit area which is also suffering from a rather difficult economy.



Thanks, Miles, I much appreciate the thought! :asian:



Miles said:


> The thread is primarily about the Chung Do Kwan, but you may know that the founder of the Song Moo Kwan, GM Ro, Byung Jik, was a student with GM Lee, Won Kuk at the Shotokan.  When both men were back in Korea after WWII, GM Ro was an instructor at the Chung Do Kwan.



Yes, I knew about the connection there&#8212;there was a kind of 'old boys' network' amongst the Korean MA students back in Japan in the 1930s, and Gms. Ro and  and Lee were right at the heart of it (I believe that BJR was technical director at the KKW for many years).


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## terryl965 (Jan 11, 2009)

exile said:


> We've used the Tuttle Rec Center in the OSU campus area for the last six years or more.. but we're in trouble with that now, because the city, due the severe budget crunch that a lot of municipalities are experiencing, has opted to close a dozen of its rec centers, and Tuttle is one of them. We're kind of a 'regional campus' of the Little Star dojang in Hilliard, where my instructor, Allan Shirley is the ex officio head instructor, but it's not clear what our fate is going to be now that we're in danger of losing our (incredibly spacious!) training venue... have to see how this whole budget thing plays out.
> 
> And yes: our TKD is quite Shotokan-ish too (though we use the TKD open-hip kicking techs)... but then, Song Moo Kwan is essentially a near-direct translation of Shoto Kan into Korean, so it's not really a surprise, eh?


 

Exile I hope everything works out foyou and the students. Best of luck with the crunch.


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