# Amanda Knox



## Steve (Oct 3, 2011)

Well, it looks like she was acquitted of the murder charge.  Don't know whether she did it or not, but this will put the saga behind us.  Been a big deal here in Seattle.


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## Tez3 (Oct 3, 2011)

Big deal here too, a girl was murdered. As the murdered girl's family said, Amanda Knox had a PR company working for her, she pulled out all the stops despite the 23 pages of evidence against her she's got away with it.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Oct 3, 2011)

Twenty-three pages?  That's it?  Twenty-three pages is half a deposition transcript.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2011)

Tez, that's really interesting.  I get the impression from your post that the presumption in the UK is that she's guilty.  Here, it's completely the opposite.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 3, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Tez, that's really interesting.  I get the impression from your post that the presumption in the UK is that she's guilty.  Here, it's completely the opposite.



I wouldn't say that.  I have no idea whether Knox is guilty or innocent.  I don't know anyone personally who has offered an opinion one way or another either.  People seem (to me) to either not know or not care.


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## Tez3 (Oct 3, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Tez, that's really interesting. I get the impression from your post that the presumption in the UK is that she's guilty. Here, it's completely the opposite.



I suspect that the American viewing public weren't shown everything at the original trial, we got it step by step leading to people believing she is indeed guilty. There was also the fact that she confessed.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I wouldn't say that.  I have no idea whether Knox is guilty or innocent.  I don't know anyone personally who has offered an opinion one way or another either.  People seem (to me) to either not know or not care.


In the Seattle area, she's big news.  While I haven't paid much attention, it's been all over the media around here.

Tez, I don't know about that.  There has been a ton of information flowing around about the trial, and there is plenty of information online for those interested enough to look for it.  And here in the Seattle area, I can assure you many are.

I'm not saying that you're wrong or right.  Just that I find it interesting that you kind of presume she's guilty, where I've not run into that here.  Most people around here are sympathetic, and the parents have been regulars on the local talk radio shows.


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## Tez3 (Oct 3, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> In the Seattle area, she's big news. While I haven't paid much attention, it's been all over the media around here.
> 
> Tez, I don't know about that. There has been a ton of information flowing around about the trial, and there is plenty of information online for those interested enough to look for it. And here in the Seattle area, I can assure you many are.
> 
> I'm not saying that you're wrong or right. Just that I find it interesting that you kind of presume she's guilty, where I've not run into that here. Most people around here are sympathetic, and the parents have been regulars on the local talk radio shows.




It's not a presumption, she said she did it. The feeling here is for the family of the murdered girl. 

Now whether or not she really did it she and her family have not said a word about the murdered girl, no sympathy, no thought, nothing. If she's innocent I can understand that being freed is the important thing for here but when she says she wants her life back she could bear in mind the dead girl..her friend and room mate after all, is dead. Knox has been booed and jeered by the Italians and called murderer as she left the court. She is still guilty of the other charges, they've upheld those.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15152871

However this isn't the end, the prosecutors are going to appeal against this.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> she confessed.



Didn't know that...but then I am in Bill's camp on this one



Bill Mattocks said:


> I wouldn't say that.  I have no idea whether Knox is guilty or innocent.  I don't know anyone personally who has offered an opinion one way or another either.  People seem (to me) to either not know or not care.


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## crushing (Oct 3, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I suspect that the American viewing public weren't shown everything at the original trial, we got it step by step leading to people believing she is indeed guilty. There was also the fact that she confessed.



I think you are correct in that the media coverage can influence perceptions of what happened.  For example, the media headlines talked about the "Knox confession" and their stories refer to the "Knox confession", but anyone paying any sort of  attention to anything more than the headlines will find that the so-called "confession" was only to being in the house at the time of the murder.  Reading statements like "There was also the fact that she confessed," could lead people to think she actually confessed to the murder.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Knox-Guilty-or-innocent-five-reasons-why.html


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## Tez3 (Oct 3, 2011)

crushing said:


> I think you are correct in that the media coverage can influence perceptions of what happened. For example, the media headlines talked about the "Knox confession" and their stories refer to the "Knox confession", but anyone paying any sort of attention to anything more than the headlines will find that the so-called "confession" was only to being in the house at the time of the murder. Reading statements like "There was also the fact that she confessed," could lead people to think she actually confessed to the murder.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Knox-Guilty-or-innocent-five-reasons-why.html



No she confessed to the murder then said she confessed because police hit her.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570226/Amanda-Knox-says-her-confession-was-flawed.html


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## crushing (Oct 3, 2011)

The linked article didn't have much to it other than a flatmate's quote and a suggestion that she confessed to some involvement after 10 hours of rough interrogation.  The article does have a link to a transcript to a second statement she made, but not the audio or transcript of the confession.


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2011)

I saw that she was found guilty of what seems to amount to slander.

Tez, so, if I understand right, the prosecution can appeal the acquittal?  That's interesting.  I didn't know that.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 3, 2011)

Tez3 the italian people have spoken.  They actually have the last word on this matter!


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2011)

I found this: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffriendsofamanda.org%2Ffiles%2Famanda_knox_case_summary.pdf

It's pretty much the way the case has been laid out here.  

It seems obvious to me now that since the victim was from the UK, there would be a very different version of the story.  I think it's a terrible story all the way around.  Honestly.  My heart goes out to the parents of the victim.


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## Tez3 (Oct 3, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I saw that she was found guilty of what seems to amount to slander.
> 
> Tez, so, if I understand right, the prosecution can appeal the acquittal? That's interesting. I didn't know that.



I don't think this is over yet.

Reading various comments left by people on news sites, the general feeling here is that she got off with it because her family is rich and American. Someone pointed out that the other person who pleaded guilty to the murder had nothing to gain by implicating her, he didn't get a lesser sentence or any remission. The fact that the media is carrying stories that Knox has written a book about the case, has Hollywood lining up to make a film and she's set to become a celebrity has lessened any sympathy people may have for her. In Italy she was booed, jeered and called murderer as she left the court. I have to say she comes across here as being cold and hard.

It wasn't exactly slander, it was making a false accusation, a criminal offence it seems rather than slander which is a civil one. She was given a three year sentence for that but it was considered she'd served time for that. However if she lied about that how do we know she is actually telling the truth about anything?


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## Sukerkin (Oct 3, 2011)

My impressions from the media coverage of this sordid and terrible trial is that Ms Knox is either suffering from some mental problems that could be treated if she so chose, has done too many drugs or is one seriously sociopathic individual who seeks her pleasure in a world where only she is real.  EDIT:  That is actually unfair of me, even tho' I only have the media reports to go on, I can't really say such things with any surety of accuracy.  Mind you, who does cartwheels in a police station when they're about to be arrested for murder?

If she had a face like a bag of scaffolding clips or her family wasn't wealthy I don't think we'd have heard a peep about Foxy Knoxy.  Which probably says bad things about the justice systems globally but is hardly something we didn't know already.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 3, 2011)

This post-appeal piece puts the successful 'defence' spin on matters:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15161105


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## Sukerkin (Oct 3, 2011)

A discoursive 'magazine; piece that tries to look at both sides:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15043002


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2011)

Mentally ill?  I'm not sure you can say such a thing based on what we know.  Naive?  Yeah.  Doing things she probably shouldn't have?  Absolutely.  The picture painted here is of a young lady open to trying new things.  She was stoned and in way over her head, but she was a scapegoat.  She devil?  I don't know.


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## Blade96 (Oct 4, 2011)

i read about her in 'marie claire' magazine. Idk if she is guilty or not. If she's not, I hope they find the real killer. I felt sorry for the victim and her family.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

She's a druggie from a rich family who could afford to mount a PR campaign the victims family couldn't. She will now become even richer as she now becomes a professional martyr.
I wouldn't say the Italian people have spoken in favour of her, she was booed, jeered and called a murderer by the ordinary Italians waiting outside the court house. 
The real killers? they walked out of the court house.

Knox is no little Miss Innocent. She admitted to taking drugs and was so high she didn't remember much about anything.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-498853/The-wild-raunchy-past-Foxy-Knoxy.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11823193


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

Reasons Knox got off according to investigative journalist and co-author of 'Darkness Descending: The murder of Meredith Kercher'


PR campaign
Knox's family hired a Seattle public relations specialist, David Marriot, who for months repeatedly plugged the line: "Amanda will get out, it's a done deal." This created a self-propagating media frenzy, which - in the end - helped convince a largely sceptical Italian media. 

_Supporters' presence
_ The massive presence of friends and family in Perugia in support fuelled the "Amanda is innocent" campaign. Italians have claimed that because Knox is American, the case has been handled differently, so as not to offend the US.

Appeals process
 The Italian appeals process offers more guarantees to defendants than any other legal system in the world, whereby only the weakest evidence is treated, not the whole case. Knox's team only had to attack the DNA evidence against her to undermine the whole edifice of the original trial. Italy has one of lowest prison populations in the world because of its lenient appeals process.

Favourable political climate
 Silvio Berlusconi's government vowed to tame his country's fiercely independent system of magistrates - one that had been bolstered to fight the mafia. The more the government shows the magistracy to be incompetent the better for Mr Berlusconi. The ministry of justice is poised to investigate what went wrong.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 4, 2011)

I was interested to see the different ways in which the media of Britain and America reported this.  Reading the American papers you would almopst be forgiven for thinking that this woman was a poor, weak-willed innocent who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  I find that sort of fatuous presentation hard to swallow, perhaps even harder than a 'witch hunt' would be.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 4, 2011)

This selection is worth a read just to see how a 'news' item can read in some very different ways depending on the perspective of both the writer and the reader:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15159828


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## Jenna (Oct 4, 2011)

Whichever side one chooses to believe, the Italian justice system will be accused of corruption, not just in individual cases, and but on a systemic scale.  I would not argue with that accusation.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 4, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Mentally ill? I'm not sure you can say such a thing based on what we know.



Aye, agreed.  We can only use our own life experiences to judge as no formal evidence has been presented in a public forum - nontheless, one of the prosecutors did make the point that her behviour exhibited signs of 'split personality'. Reading her actions and seeing her demeanour on the TV at different times certainly gelled with me, having dealt with a family member who is manic depressice paranoid schitzophrenic for thirty five years or so. Sometimes when it looks like a different person is looking out through a pair of eyes it really *is*.

Mind you, isn't it your goodself who has worked in the mental health field, or am I getting confused  .


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

She was acquitted because the DNA evidence was deemed to be flawed, she wasn't acquitted because they think she didn't do it.

It seems it will be going to the Italian Supreme court for appeal though it's doubted that America will allow her to be extradited, it could be too that the Kercher family may take it to a civil court and sue Knox.


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## punisher73 (Oct 4, 2011)

It is all on how the media of both countries have portrayed it (England and US). 

 In the US, before I knew anything about the case, I saw a news piece/investigative report on the case and the way it was layed out seemed to be to show her as a rich young girl trying to live it up and being taken advantage of and alot of holes in the prosecution's side and police mishandling of the case.  There was a lot of time spent on the rough treatment by the police and telling her that she couldn't talk to anyone else (her parents) unless she confessed.

It looks like it was reported the exact opposite way in England and the stuff shown was to paint her as guilty.

The only real loser in all of this is the victim's family, no matter who you think did it.


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## crushing (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Reading various comments left by people on news sites, the general feeling here is that she got off with it because *her family is rich and American.*



My general feeling is this is the reason some people want her to be found guilty.

There seems to be more and more of this.  There was a car accident in a city near me recently.  A man was apparently speeding, lost control and took out a utility pole.  Usually when this happens, you may hear someone comment on it and call the driver and idiot, but usually there isn't much discussion.  This time was different.  This time the car was a Ford GT40 and the driver was a president of a corporation.  Comments initially had the driver going 80 mph in a 35 mph zone, then it went up to 100, then 120 mph.  People that have nothing to do with the accident are demanding toxicology reports be released ASAP and that the driver should sent to prison for his recklessness.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

crushing said:


> My general feeling is this is the reason some people want her to be found guilty.
> 
> There seems to be more and more of this. There was a car accident in a city near me recently. A man was apparently speeding, lost control and took out a utility pole. Usually when this happens, you may hear someone comment on it and call the driver and idiot, but usually there isn't much discussion. This time was different. This time the car was a Ford GT40 and the driver was a president of a corporation. Comments initially had the driver going 80 mph in a 35 mph zone, then it went up to 100, then 120 mph. People that have nothing to do with the accident are demanding toxicology reports be released ASAP and that the driver should sent to prison for his recklessness.




The fact that her family is rich has a bearing on the case as they organised things such as the PR company who ran the media campaign that they knew would work heavily in her favour due to the way the Italian appeal court was ran. 
The perception in Italy and in the UK is that the American media are saying she was innocent because she is an American in Italy and she was framed because of this.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

The guy who is in jail is the killer.  His DNA was all over the victim's room.  The question isn't whether they found her killer.  It's whether Knox and her boyfriend were involved.  All of the evidence suggests that she is not.

As for her being a druggie from a rich family, I don't believe that's the impression we have over here.  The impression is that she was young, was naive, was definitely experimenting with alcohol and drugs, and was probably pretty wasted the night of the murder.  Her family, including her parents, grandparents and other extended relatives, mortgaged their homes and took out loans to help pay for her defense.  Her father lost his job.  They aren't rich, and based on what I've read recently, they're far from it.

Once again, I don't know any more than you guys do about what ACTUALLY happened.  What I think is really interesting is the chasm between what you guys have been led to believe through your media, and what we've seen here.  All of the factual information is pretty much the same, but there's so much room for sway.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 4, 2011)

Yet again the Italian people have spoken.  They meaning the people in the court room were more than likely in a better position to make a determination one way or the other on here innocent or guilt.

It is interesting to see how it was portrayed by UK media and American media.  Definitely, anyone trying to get to the bottom of the incident needs to look hard at all media involved but even more so at the information presented in the Italian court.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Aye, agreed.  We can only use our own life experiences to judge as no formal evidence has been presented in a public forum - nontheless, one of the prosecutors did make the point that her behviour exhibited signs of 'split personality'. Reading her actions and seeing her demeanour on the TV at different times certainly gelled with me, having dealt with a family member who is manic depressice paranoid schitzophrenic for thirty five years or so. Sometimes when it looks like a different person is looking out through a pair of eyes it really *is*.
> 
> Mind you, isn't it your goodself who has worked in the mental health field, or am I getting confused  .


Don't get me wrong.  I don't know whether she is ill or not.  But it's reasonable that she left home for the first time, got caught up in a foreign country, was inclined to experiment and experience lots of new things, among those being booze and drugs, along with Italian culture, and etc, and ended up where she is.  You don't need to be mentally ill to have what happened to her happen. It's a cautionary tale for every young lady who goes to Padre Island or the Florida Keys on Spring Break and "Goes Wild." 

[edit]I'll just add that I went to Germany for 2 years as a young man.  I was 18 when I got there, and 20 when I left.  In the first 6 months or so I was there, I got into a lot of trouble.  While I calmed down and did a lot of travelling throughout Germany and Holland with a good friend, I also went in with two of my friends, bought a 1969 Mercedes fire truck (everything original except we were required to remove the siren), filled it one evening with about 20 drunk ammo troops and went to the red light district in Frankfurt.  We could all have ended up in jail.  But we didn't.  Most of us, I believe, have similar stories.  So, when I see a story like this, I'm a little sympathetic.  While I don't condone the behavior, I at least can understand that good kids can get into situations that they're not mature enough to handle. [/edit]

Tez, the DNA evidence was marginal at best.  Her DNA was not found anywhere in the room where the murder took place.  She lived in the apartment, and her DNA was found in the common areas of the apartment, as a reasonable person would expect.  

There are two things I have come to believe.  Granted, both are based on incomplete knowledge of the events.  One is that the cops didn't do their jobs correctly. I'm pretty well convinced that they rail-roaded the investigation, finding evidence that supported their suppositions, rather than objectively examining all of the evidence.  The police decided that the three were involved and set about finding or twisting the evidence that suited their story.  

Second, is that I have a new appreciate for being "tried in the media."  It's truly amazing to me that you guys have such a profoundly different impression of this young lady than is common here in America... or at least in the Seattle area.  Not wrong or right.  That I don't know, but definitely different.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

It's interesting that it's 'what the British have been led to believe' and 'what we've seen here', it sounds as if the British are wrong to draw conclusions while the Americans have it correctly!

Perhaps we've actually had more in depth neutral coverage of the trial and appeal hearing that American media have given Americans. Certainly the media here has tried to be fair in it's coverage, it has to be by law in trials here.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php..._now_pushing_amanda_knox_very_very_close_to_/

Look at the articles on the sidebar, I think you will find them enlightening. Yes it is a site in memory of the victim but it carries a lot of information missed by the media and others. it carries the defence case too btw.


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## crushing (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It's interesting that it's 'what the British have been led to believe' and 'what we've seen here', it sounds as if the British are wrong to draw conclusions while the Americans have it correctly!



When just the opposite is true!   Right?


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

crushing said:


> When just the opposite is true! Right?



Knox's family spent a million dollars on a PR company, so who do you thinks story is going to get the most coverage in America?


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It's interesting that it's 'what the British have been led to believe' and 'what we've seen here', it sounds as if the British are wrong to draw conclusions while the Americans have it correctly!
> 
> Perhaps we've actually had more in depth neutral coverage of the trial and appeal hearing that American media have given Americans. Certainly the media here has tried to be fair in it's coverage, it has to be by law in trials here.
> 
> ...


Don't get defensive, Tez.  I didn't mean anything by that.  I believe we've both been influenced by the media.  That's what I'm talking about.


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## Empty Hands (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps we've actually had more in depth neutral coverage of the trial and appeal hearing that American media have given Americans. Certainly the media here has tried to be fair in it's coverage, it has to be by law in trials here.



"Foxy Knoxy"?  Whatever the sins of the Italian or American press, it's pretty clear the UK press has their own axe to grind.

The Italian court system really screwed up though and showed their biases.  Introducing into evidence that Knox masturbated or sometimes wore sexy panties?  That she had sex with her boyfriend?  How does that bear on the question of murder?  No one knows exactly what happened other than the few people involved, but plenty are happy to line up on either side and act as if they did.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Regarding the PR firm hired to keep her story in the news, I don't know that I'd do anything different.  Without the news coverage and the international visibility, she would very likely still be languishing in an Italian prison.  

I don't have a million bucks, but you can bet your *** I'd find it if my son or daughter was in a foreign prison.  Just saying.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> "Foxy Knoxy"?  Whatever the sins of the Italian or American press, it's pretty clear the UK press has their own axe to grind.
> 
> The Italian court system really screwed up though and showed their biases.  Introducing into evidence that Knox masturbated or sometimes wore sexy panties?  That she had sex with her boyfriend?  How does that bear on the question of murder?  No one knows exactly what happened other than the few people involved, but plenty are happy to line up on either side and act as if they did.


She-devil.  Foxy Knoxy.  She's been crucified in the international press.  Neutral.  Come on, Tez.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

I think what many are doing is assuming the Italian justice system is the same as the UK and American ones, it's very different though. Rules of evidence, witness statements etc are very different from what we are used to so things are introduced into court that we wouldn't have in our courts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure#Judges_of_the_trial

In an Italian court the defendant may lie as much as they want, they take no oath to tell the truth and can't be charged with perjury. 
Defendant_"The defendant can be called to the stand, but he may refuse to bear testimony,[SUP][18][/SUP] or he may refuse to answer some questions. He can also lie. Since he does not take an oath and since he is not technically a witness, if a defendant tells a lie, he is not committing perjury._
_A defendant can also choose to make spontaneous statements to the Judge; he can tell whatever he wishes to tell and can choose not to answer any questions. In this case too, a defendant can lie without consequences."

_


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I think what many are doing is assuming the Italian justice system is the same as the UK and American ones, it's very different though. Rules of evidence, witness statements etc are very different from what we are used to so things are introduced into court that we wouldn't have in our courts.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure#Judges_of_the_trial
> 
> In an Italian court the defendant may lie as much as they want, they take no oath to tell the truth and can't be charged with perjury.
> ...


I'm not getting the connection.  Are you saying that, because she _could_ lie, you believe she did?  That's a tenuous line of reasoning.  

Also, for what it's worth, you're absolutely right that the emphasis locally has been on Knox.  Her trial, conviction, appeal and subsequent acquittal.   Over the last two days, in every story, the emphasis has been on the victim.  

And once again, I believe that the crime was heinous and tragic.  I also believe, based on what evidence I've read about, that the killer has already been convicted and is in jail.  Rudy Gueda is serving 16 years in prison for the murder.  I might be wrong.  I'll never know for sure.  But based on what I've read, it seems pretty convincing to me that Gueda was there alone, killed her alone.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> *I'm not getting the connection. Are you saying that, because she could lie, you believe she did? That's a tenuous line of reasoning.
> 
> *Also, for what it's worth, you're absolutely right that the emphasis locally has been on Knox. Her trial, conviction, appeal and subsequent acquittal. Over the last two days, in every story, the emphasis has been on the victim.
> 
> And once again, I believe that the crime was heinous and tragic. I also believe, based on what evidence I've read about, that the killer has already been convicted and is in jail. Rudy Gueda is serving 16 years in prison for the murder. I might be wrong. I'll never know for sure. But based on what I've read, it seems pretty convincing to me that Gueda was there alone, killed her alone.




I was actually just pointing out the difference between their justice systems and ours, you are reading far too much into it. It was commented that information was given in court that wasn't relevant, I was pointing out that Italian courts as do others in Europe have different rules and we can't judge the trial or the appeal by what we are used to, pointing out that the defendant can lie with impunity was just one of the differences I wanted to put across. We aren't used to that in either of our systems.
As for her lying, she was convicted and given a three year sentence for lying so that if anything _could_ mean she lied in court.

What is coming across more and more is that Americans believe Knox is innocent purely because she was an American in a foreign country. The Italian courts are considered corrupt becuase they convicted her yet they also released her so perhaps now they aren't corrupt? being American or British doesn't mean you can't be guilty because you are arrested in a foreign country. Brits are often guilty of thinking every Brit arrested abroad has been fitted up by the local police so it's not unusual thinking but the white washing of a drug taking slapper is a bit more than some of us can stomach. she 'may' be innocent of the murder but painting her as an innocent chaste girl is a step to far for most of us. this is the girl who while her friend was in the morgue with a slashed throat did cartwheels around the police station, snogged her boyfriend's face off, laughed and joked and generally behaved like it was all a great joke. 

As the Kercher family said, there's still questions that need answering.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> What is coming across more and more is that Americans believe Knox is innocent purely because she was an American in a foreign country.



ahhh no... I would not take what you read on MT or any other place or see on TV as what Americans think, don't forget Bill's post. may Americans simply do not care others think she did it and some think she didn't. I would not take the word of the vocal minority as to what Americans think.

Lets put it this way, do all in Britan think just like you and share your beliefs and opinions on everything... I guessing no.



Tez3 said:


> The Italian courts are considered corrupt becuase they convicted her yet they also released her so perhaps now they aren't corrupt? being American or British doesn't mean you can't be guilty because you are arrested in a foreign country.



Again for some yes...others no...but here is an interesting thing that may be in play here. This may be a media hype thing...meaning what a lot of people see and hear in movies they tend to beleive and Italy is not always portrayed in a positive way when it comes to law and order. Same goes for other countries as well. Hey my wife was convinced all Americans did was hop from bed to bed and all were rich based soley on Movies that portrayed Americans as such in China.



Tez3 said:


> As the Kercher family said, there's still questions that need answering.



Absolutly.


I do have a question for you as it applies to the British Legal system and the Italian one as well

In America once arrested the defendant is considered innocent until provenguilty and the burden of proof is on the prosecution in other countries it is reversed "Guilty until proven innocent, China is one of these as are awhole lot of countries.

I was under the impression the Britain was also Guilty until proven innocent, am I correct?

And would you know what Italy was?

These are simply asked out of curiosity by the way


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## Empty Hands (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I was actually just pointing out the difference between their justice systems and ours, you are reading far too much into it. It was commented that information was given in court that wasn't relevant, I was pointing out that Italian courts as do others in Europe have different rules and we can't judge the trial or the appeal by what we are used to, pointing out that the defendant can lie with impunity was just one of the differences I wanted to put across. We aren't used to that in either of our systems.



I certainly can judge.  Masturbation is a near-universal human behavior.  So is having sex.  Neither has anything to do with being a murderer.  That is true and thus the "evidence" is irrelevant and prejudicial in _any _justice system.  I'm not going to throw up my hands and refuse to judge when, let's say, a Saudi court throws a woman in jail for driving.  Wrong is wrong.



Tez3 said:


> Brits are often guilty of thinking every Brit arrested abroad has been fitted up by the local police so it's not unusual thinking but the white washing of a drug taking slapper is a bit more than some of us can stomach. she 'may' be innocent of the murder but painting her as an innocent chaste girl is a step to far for most of us.



Who painted her as an "innocent chaste girl"?  The question is whether or not she committed murder.  Her chastity or lack thereof has *nothing *to do with that question.  Nor does taking drugs.  Nor is being a slapper.  

It's pretty telling that you describe her in such negative, judgmental terms.  Slut (slapper).  Druggie.  And so forth.  It sounds like you want her punished because you disagree with her personal choices.  Describing her like that does little to dispel the suspicion that many want to see her punished because she is a young, pretty sexually active woman (since when does having sex with your boyfriend make you a slut?).

And again, her personal choices have *nothing *to do with the question of whether or not she is a murderer.  Completely irrelevant.  Prejudicial to even bring up.  Hence the criticism.



Tez3 said:


> this is the girl who while her friend was in the morgue with a slashed throat did cartwheels around the police station, snogged her boyfriend's face off, laughed and joked and generally behaved like it was all a great joke.



Again, irrelevant.

However, you're telling me you've never come across people that respond to stress and tragedy in odd or inappropriate ways?  I've met people that laugh or smile when under great stress.  I've met people that laughed when a relative died.  People are different.  Sometimes people respond in a way that you would not.

That doesn't make Knox innocent.  But it also doesn't make her guilty.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I was actually just pointing out the difference between their justice systems and ours, you are reading far too much into it. It was commented that information was given in court that wasn't relevant, I was pointing out that Italian courts as do others in Europe have different rules and we can't judge the trial or the appeal by what we are used to, pointing out that the defendant can lie with impunity was just one of the differences I wanted to put across. We aren't used to that in either of our systems.


Fair enough.





> As for her lying, she was convicted and given a three year sentence for lying so that if anything _could_ mean she lied in court.


Again, a fair point.  I believe she was convicted of defamation. 





> What is coming across more and more is that Americans believe Knox is innocent purely because she was an American in a foreign country.


This actually hurts my feelings a little bit.  I won't lie.  I believe I've gone out of my way to state what I believe is true in the case, why I believe it, where I'm getting my information and that I could be completely wrong because I don't know all the details.  I have gone out of my way to explain that I believe she's innocent because, based on what I've seen, there's no real evidence to suggest otherwise.  Not because she's an American abroad.

From where I'm sitting, it looks like exactly the opposite is true.  That brits believe she's guilty purely because the victim is british and you want desperately to see someone pay, whether it's the right person or not.  





> The Italian courts are considered corrupt becuase they convicted her yet they also released her so perhaps now they aren't corrupt? being American or British doesn't mean you can't be guilty because you are arrested in a foreign country. Brits are often guilty of thinking every Brit arrested abroad has been fitted up by the local police so it's not unusual thinking but the white washing of a drug taking slapper is a bit more than some of us can stomach. she 'may' be innocent of the murder but painting her as an innocent chaste girl is a step to far for most of us. this is the girl who while her friend was in the morgue with a slashed throat did cartwheels around the police station, snogged her boyfriend's face off, laughed and joked and generally behaved like it was all a great joke.


Innocent and chaste aren't the descriptors anyone I know would use for her.  I've tried to articulate the general perception I have, but I don't believe you're taking the time to understand.  Immature, naive, in over her head.  I'd use all of those.  I'd argue that just about every young British or American soldier abroad has been involved in nights where things get out of control.  Fortunately, they seldom go completely awry, but I've awoken after a bender and thought, "Whew.  We were lucky."  More than a couple times, I got in trouble, because the British soldiers were nuts, and I thought I could hang...  I couldn't. 

Point isn't that she's innocent and chaste.  Point IS that she was into things she shouldn't have been, but that doesn't make her an occultist murderer.



> As the Kercher family said, there's still questions that need answering.


And there always will be as long as they believe that Guerde wasn't alone. But that's a deeply personal bias, and I don't blame them a bit (right or wrong).


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## Empty Hands (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> The Italian courts are considered corrupt becuase they convicted her yet they also released her so perhaps now they aren't corrupt?



Oh, forgot to address this one.  The Italian courts are considered corrupt because their entire government is shot through with corruption from top to bottom.  Nothing to do with Knox either, this is objective fact.  It is a major problem that Italy has that even the Italians recognize.  According to one business report by an Italian business group, the Mafia accounts for 7% of the GDP!


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> ahhh no... I would not take what yuo read on MT or any other place or see on TV as what Americans think, don't forget Bill's post. may Americans simply do not care others thing she did it and some think she didn't. I would not take the word of the vocal minority as to what Americans think.
> 
> Lets put it this way, do all in Britan think just like you and share your beliefs and opinions on everything... I guessing no.
> 
> ...



English law is innocent until proven guilty, it's been that since the 11th century. Scottish and Welsh law is also innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. I believe you got this law from us.

I believe in Italy the presumption is that it's guilty before innocent.


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## Carol (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> What is coming across more and more is that Americans believe Knox is innocent purely because she was an American in a foreign country.



I don't know if that is necessarily the sentiment here.  

We're not a people to think murderers should walk, the recent trial (and acquittal) of Casey Anthony has that sentiment fresh in our minds.  We also understand the pain of losing an American to a crime abroad, including when the accused is a foreigner from wealthy means.  6 years have passed since Natalee Holloway's disappearance in Aruba, presumably murdered by Dutchman Joran van der Sloot, yet we all remember their names...partly because the story has never really gone away.

I'm very sorry for the loss of your countryman


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez, I missed this post from you.  I just want to point out a couple of things.  





Tez3 said:


> Reasons Knox got off according to investigative journalist and co-author of 'Darkness Descending: The murder of Meredith Kercher'
> 
> 
> PR campaign
> Knox's family hired a Seattle public relations specialist, David Marriot, who for months repeatedly plugged the line: "Amanda will get out, it's a done deal." This created a self-propagating media frenzy, which - in the end - helped convince a largely sceptical Italian media.


If she's innocent, isn't this a good thing?  Couple of things on this one.  First, my impression is that the Italian media was very hostile towards her.  From what I've seen, so has the media in the UK.  I understand it, even if I don't agree with it.  I mean, it's completely understandable to me that in Britain, home of the victim, a desire to have justice done is big.  But if justice has already been done, with the conviction of Guerde, and the family of the victim still sees a need for someone to pay... that can lead to the opposite of justice and essentially create yet another victim.  

Second, what's been put out here is that, had the media not been involved, the conviction would quietly have been upheld and she'd quietly languish for a decade or two in an Italian prison for a crime she didn't commit.  


> _Supporters' presence
> _ The massive presence of friends and family in Perugia in support fuelled the "Amanda is innocent" campaign. Italians have claimed that because Knox is American, the case has been handled differently, so as not to offend the US.


Whether or not Amanda had supporters has nothing to do with her being innocent or guilty.  If, as it appears, the evidence is so flimsy, wouldn't it be reasonable for people to support her release, as they genuinely believe her to be innocent?


> Appeals process
> The Italian appeals process offers more guarantees to defendants than any other legal system in the world, whereby only the weakest evidence is treated, not the whole case. Knox's team only had to attack the DNA evidence against her to undermine the whole edifice of the original trial. Italy has one of lowest prison populations in the world because of its lenient appeals process.


The DNA evidence was central to the conviction, but as was brought out in the appeal, it was contaminated and unusable.  If Amanda Knox is innocent, isn't it a good thing that flawed evidence was brought to light?





> Favourable political climate
> Silvio Berlusconi's government vowed to tame his country's fiercely independent system of magistrates - one that had been bolstered to fight the mafia. The more the government shows the magistracy to be incompetent the better for Mr Berlusconi. The ministry of justice is poised to investigate what went wrong.


Tez, I missed this post from you.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> I certainly can judge. Masturbation is a near-universal human behavior. So is having sex. Neither has anything to do with being a murderer. That is true and thus the "evidence" is irrelevant and prejudicial in _any _justice system. I'm not going to throw up my hands and refuse to judge when, let's say, a Saudi court throws a woman in jail for driving. Wrong is wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A slapper is certainly not the same as a slut! Two different things. You are putting words into my mouth there.

You can decide that bringing up such things are irelevant, I was pointing out that the Italian court system is different from ours, it's an adversarial system where such things are brought up. Whether you or I agree that it's pertinent means nothing, the Italian justice system works that way, as I said before it's very different from what we are used to. Another example is that a defendant has no right to have a lawyer present when they are questioned, something unthinkable in our systems. 

Her PR team is portraying her as a lost little girl who is being fitted up by the Italians and she hasn't made any bad choices or acted strangely. She admits being off her head on drugs and she was known for sleeping with many men not just her boyfriend. The relevance of this in the Italian court's eyes is that it was alleged she was playing a sex game that went wrong hence all the references and questions about her sex life.  

This is an interesting view of the media attention the case garnered.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/04/02/how-the-media-got-knox-wrong.html

The PR team at work and the cost to Knox's father.
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/the_vicious_destruction_of_curt_knox_the_father/


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

I didn't say it was people on MT who were coming across as I described, I had already mentioned about the comments on the on line media.

Not all Italian courts are corrupt, the dead prosecutors and judges, murdered by the Mafia for their honesty are proof of that.

Actually the Brits don't believe Knox is guilty just because we want her to be.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111003132142AAc2HdR
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uliano-Mignini-appeal-acquittal.html#comments


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I didn't say it was people on MT who were coming across as I described, I had already mentioned about the comments on the on line media.
> 
> Not all Italian courts are corrupt, the dead prosecutors and judges, murdered by the Mafia for their honesty are proof of that.
> 
> ...


Tez...  do you not see that these articles are as clearly biased as any meant to portray her as an innocent victim?

Tez.  I've seen a lot of hit pieces on her alleging that she's being painted as an innocent.  But I haven't been able to find any of the articles that paint her as a perfect, pure, chaste, innocent.  I've seen articles that clearly outline why the case against her is wrong and she should be acquitted.  But I can't find anything that paints her as an angel.

Could you find some of those articles for me?  I'd like to read them.


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Tez... do you not see that these articles are as clearly biased as any meant to portray her as an innocent victim?
> 
> Tez. I've seen a lot of hit pieces on her alleging that she's being painted as an innocent. But I haven't been able to find any of the articles that paint her as a perfect, pure, chaste, innocent. I've seen articles that clearly outline why the case against her is wrong and she should be acquitted. But I can't find anything that paints her as an angel.
> 
> Could you find some of those articles for me? I'd like to read them.



The articles I posted up showed bias on all sides not just one way or the other, I posted them to show you that ALL Brits don't want her found guilty but that opinion was divided here. These were the British ones I found not the American ones.

One of the articles where Knox is portrayed as sweet and innocent is an interview with her mother, the PR team took their instructions from her and this is the portrait of Knox that they have put out. Of course it's understandable that they do this they are being paid by the family who in turn of course want their daughter back.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4113087.ece


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## Tez3 (Oct 4, 2011)

Steve, it's just struck me..you thought I meant the articles themselves didn't you? I actually meant the comments people had posted under them. Sorry.


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## Steve (Oct 4, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Steve, it's just struck me..you thought I meant the articles themselves didn't you? I actually meant the comments people had posted under them. Sorry.


Ahh...  I haven't read any of the comments.   I don't know about you, but I don't give a lot of merit to a 30 word sound byte posted by someone named, "AmericanEagle4311" or "Bart."   Who knows who these people are?

What I am very interested in is an actual article where the media, having been heavily influenced by the PR firm that the UK press seems to believe a smoking gun, posts an article in which Knox is painted as a young virgin, pure as newly fallen snow.  I haven't seen that.

I will go back and read the comments, though.  Now I'm curious.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2011)

The Times article with the interview with Knox's mother is where the whitewash starts, understandable of course but all the same she paints her daughter as a sweet little innocent. 
There's loads more comments on AOL from members there but I don't think I can post them up without also posting my login, I use AOL to get onto the internet.

there's one comment that at first glance seems silly but on reflection actually makes sense. "when will people realise not guilty doesn't mean innocent"


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## Empty Hands (Oct 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> The Times article with the interview with Knox's mother is where the whitewash starts, understandable of course but all the same she paints her daughter as a sweet little innocent.



What else would you expect?


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> What else would you expect?



Er, that's why I said 'understandable' in my post! It's also what she was paying for when she engaged the PR company.


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## Empty Hands (Oct 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Er, that's why I said 'understandable' in my post! It's also what she was paying for when she engaged the PR company.



So why does it seem to bother you so?  You've said that you find the campaign to "whitewash" her objectionable, and yet the only people you can seem to point to that are responsible are her parents and the people her parents have hired!  If the New York Times was doing it I might understand your outrage, but all we seem to have so far is that you are upset that her parents are defending their daughter.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> So why does it seem to bother you so? You've said that you find the campaign to "whitewash" her objectionable, and yet the only people you can seem to point to that are responsible are her parents and the people her parents have hired! If the New York Times was doing it I might understand your outrage, but all we seem to have so far is that you are upset that her parents are defending their daughter.



Bother and outrage? That's what you see? It's not what I feel I have to say, can't we discuss something without there being florid emotions falsely being attributed?

It's not the only people I point to, a million dollar PR campaign has produced more than the parents saying their daughter is an angel. As I said I can undrstand why, who's parents wouldn't do the same but there is also a cynical side to all this. 

the New York Times?
here http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/u...n-image.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2

_"But by the time she was freed from an Italian prison on Monday, her public portrayal was very different: Many media accounts in the United States, at least, portrayed Ms. Knox as a nice young woman, a linguistics major at the University of Washington, who had fallen victim to the Italian justice system while on her junior year abroad. _
_No one can say for sure whether the *painstaking and calculated rehabilitation of her image *helped sway the Italian courts. Ultimately, it was an official report casting doubt on the DNA evidence in the case that led to her exoneration. But the media frenzy was mentioned by both the prosecution and the defense last month in court. "_


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## Steve (Oct 5, 2011)

Tez, just want to point out that from what I've read, the family spent over a million dollars, but not all on PR.  They hired a local PR firm to help bring attention to their daughter's situation and to help them avoid doing anything that would unintentionally harm her case in Italy.  It was, in my opinion, a pretty smart thing to do.  And in retrospect, helping to make sure that she wasn't vilified in the press seems to have had a positive effect on the trial.  I'm not sure what parent would do otherwise.  

But a lot of the money the spent was on maintaining an apartment in Perugia, flying back and forth and to hire legal counsel.  And they got the million dollars, by all accounts I've seen, by piling up debt to their eyeballs.  

Again, to the original point I was making, it's interesting that to you the family is "rich".  You've referred to them as rich several times.  From where I'm at, they're a family much like mine.  I'm not poor.  In fact, I'd say I'm doing pretty well.  But I wouldn't characterize myself as rich.  That's the way that they've been painted in the British media, it seems, but I don't think that's the case.  Based on what I've read, the mom's family is squarely in the middle, while the dad might be eking toward the upper-middle income.  

I think the next step is that people are going to presume the worst when Amanda sells the rights to the book or movie or what have you.  But again, from where I'm at, I think it's about the only way that family will climb out from under the massive cost of an international legal battle.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Tez, just want to point out that from what I've read, the family spent over a million dollars, but not all on PR. They hired a local PR firm to help bring attention to their daughter's situation and to help them avoid doing anything that would unintentionally harm her case in Italy. It was, in my opinion, a pretty smart thing to do. And in retrospect, helping to make sure that she wasn't vilified in the press seems to have had a positive effect on the trial. I'm not sure what parent would do otherwise.
> 
> But a lot of the money the spent was on maintaining an apartment in Perugia, flying back and forth and to hire legal counsel. And they got the million dollars, by all accounts I've seen, by piling up debt to their eyeballs.
> 
> ...




In America class seems to be based on how much money you have, in Europe and the UK class isn't to do with money. I've noticed on here too that a good many of you think you don't earn a lot but you earn far more than most Europeans do. If the British press is saying they are rich it's because they are by our standards. The average pay here is said to be £21,000 ($32407) with most actually earning far less. The clerks and admin assistants in the Civil Service are on £11,000 a year. Looking at Mcdonalds the lowest pay in America is $7.50 an hour, here it's £3.80....$1.55. So even your McD's workers earn more than ours.


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## Steve (Oct 5, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> In America class seems to be based on how much money you have, in Europe and the UK class isn't to do with money. I've noticed on here too that a good many of you think you don't earn a lot but you earn far more than most Europeans do. If the British press is saying they are rich it's because they are by our standards. The average pay here is said to be £21,000 ($32407) with most actually earning far less. The clerks and admin assistants in the Civil Service are on £11,000 a year. Looking at Mcdonalds the lowest pay in America is $7.50 an hour, here it's £3.80....$1.55. So even your McD's workers earn more than ours.


Being rich is based on money.  Class has more to do with lifestyle, although income is a big part of that.  Sure.

Regarding wages, I don't know what to say about that.  Wages are what they are.  Cost of living is pretty high, as well.  I don't know what the comparisons are to you.  All I can tell you is that, based on what I've seen, the parents of Amanda Knox aren't "rich."  

Or maybe I AM rich, and just don't know it.  I don't feel rich.


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## elder999 (Oct 5, 2011)

Her parents aren't rich: they both remortgaged their homes (they're divorced).Her grandmother-I don't know which parent's mother it is-mortgaged *her*home. There were substantial donations from supporters in Washington. THey maxxed out all their credit cards-in short, they did what any parent who had no doubt about their child's innocence would do, which is WHATEVER THEY COULD to make sure their child got home. Her mom's a math teacher, and her dad was a VP at Macy's-solidly upper middle class, but not necessarily "rich." A rich person wouldn't have had to refinance the house.

Oh, and don't you know, Irene? In America, we have a classless society. :lfao:


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## crushing (Oct 5, 2011)

The prosecutors are engaging in their own PR campaign to lay the blame for their failure to prosecute on another PR campaign.  I'm not buying it.  A PR campaign did not lead to the lack of forensic evidence.  It also implies that Italian jurors may be weak minded and easily swayed despite the evidence or lack thereof.

At least Ms. Knox only served four years before being released, unlike the Texas man that was exonerated and released this week after serving 25 years for the murder of his wife.  That has to be one of the most heartbreaking things.  Not only to lose a family member to murder, but then to be falsely accused and convicted of killing that family member.


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## habber (Oct 5, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> In the Seattle area, she's big news. While I haven't paid much attention, it's been all over the media around here.
> 
> Tez, I don't know about that. There has been a ton of information flowing around about the trial, and there is plenty of information online for those interested enough to look for it. And here in the Seattle area, I can assure you many are.
> 
> I'm not saying that you're wrong or right. Just that I find it interesting that you kind of presume she's guilty, where I've not run into that here. Most people around here are sympathetic, and the parents have been regulars on the local talk radio shows.



If she did "get away with it" the noteriety isnt going away anytime soon.


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## habber (Oct 5, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I saw that she was found guilty of what seems to amount to slander.
> 
> Tez, so, if I understand right, the prosecution can appeal the acquittal? That's interesting. I didn't know that.



It did serve to demonstarte how screwed up the Italian legal system is.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2011)

crushing said:


> The prosecutors are engaging in their own PR campaign to lay the blame for their failure to prosecute on another PR campaign. I'm not buying it. A PR campaign did not lead to the lack of forensic evidence. It also implies that Italian jurors may be weak minded and easily swayed despite the evidence or lack thereof.
> 
> At least Ms. Knox only served four years before being released, unlike the Texas man that was exonerated and released this week after serving 25 years for the murder of his wife. That has to be one of the most heartbreaking things. Not only to lose a family member to murder, but then to be falsely accused and convicted of killing that family member.




If she had been found not guilty of the murder she would still have gone to prison as she was sentenced to three years for criminal defamation. 
That she lied over that casts doubts on whether she has told the truth, part of the truth or lied all the way though.

Class here is decided by complicated social rules, you can be upper class and very poor or very rich but still working class. It's about breeding, language, taste and other indicators nothing really to do with money.Both the upper class and the working class don't really like the middle class. The phrase 'middle class values' is often used as an insult.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English

Having your own house even if you have a mortgage is considered being rich by a great many here and even more so in Europe. Having credit cards is  unobtainable for many here as they don't earn enough to get one.  Italy is poorer than the UK, Spain and Poortugal even more than Italy. Greece is extremely poor.

Is the Italian justice system screwed up? I don't know and honestly I don't know if many non Italians know how it works to criticise it properly other than just say 'oh it's corrupt', it may be or it may just work completely differently from the way we are used to.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2011)

The Appeal Judge speaks.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141087126


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## Sukerkin (Oct 6, 2011)

I find it odd how the appeals system works in Italy.  Only the weakest evidence from the previous trial is revisited, or at least that is the understanding I have garnered from reading about this case.  Given that there is seldom one 'point' of evidence which clinches guilt or innocence that does strike me as a terrible way of going about things as circumstantial evidence is very easy to gainsay or cast in a doubtful light.

I also find it of interest to see how differently we judge 'wealth' from our respective sides of the Pond.  I can't speak to America as I've never spent time there other than in airports.  But in Canada, people earn twice as much as their British counterparts and everything costs about half as much (or less).  I recall getting a pair of 501's in Calgary for the equivalent of a tenner whereas if I'd bought them at 'home' they'd've been in the order of £75 - £ 100.


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