# Sport vs self defense.



## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

What Icey mike says has largely been my experience with the situations I’ve encountered.

For a skilled sport fighter, often an adjustment of mindset and being able to quickly identify which mindset you need, along with some discussion about tactics and the actual goal of self defense is all the additional training needed.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> What Icey mike says has largely been my experience with the situations I’ve encountered.
> 
> For a skilled sport fighter, often an adjustment of mindset and being able to quickly identify which mindset you need, along with some discussion about tactics and the actual goal of self defense is all the additional training needed.


Am I the only one who can't stand "Icey Mike"?


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Am I the only one who can't stand "Icey Mike"?


Lot of people don’t like him, he’s confident, a lot of people in the martial arts world especially the self defense sub-sect don’t like it.
His knowledge is also based on a lot of real world experience, something the overwhelming majority of the self style self defense gurus lack, so his confidence irks them, and much what he says contradicts what they believe. 

If these reasons are not your reasons I hope you don’t take this personally.


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## skribs (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> For a skilled sport fighter, often an adjustment of mindset and being able to quickly identify which mindset you need, along with some discussion about tactics and the actual goal of self defense is all the additional training needed.


I think that "sport vs. self-defense" is sort of the "striking vs. grappling" of our time.  I feel the general consensus right now is that striking and grappling both have their place.  But I also feel that sport and "self-defense" (whether it's a focused system like Krav Maga or a piece of a curriculum like in Taekwondo) also have their place.

Sport is very good at testing what works and what doesn't, and about finding ways to make things work against a noncompliant opponent.  However, it brings this mentality that a real fight situation is one where:

Both of us know we're going to fight
My opponent is trained in the same things I am
My opponent's goal is to knock me out, choke me out, or break my arm
My goal is to knock him out, choke him, or break his arm
You also get these assessments:

If your opponent has a weapon, you will automatically lose, because you can't defend against it
If my opponent has a weapon, I will win, because I know how to wrestle
Any techniques we can't use in my art are useless
I feel that while most people agree we need a mix of striking and grappling, I think we also need a mix of sport and self-defense.  And you don't necessarily need to compete in the sport, or agree with everything you learn in the self-defense class.  It's more about the thought process that goes into it.  Like with Martial Arts Journey, and how he went away from Aikido for three years, only to come back and apply the training principles he learned in MMA and its various component arts to make the Aikido work better.  

Or how someone who trains BJJ or MMA could look at knife defense and pressure test various ideas to come up with a system that's more likely to succeed, like FightSmart did.

Someone who looks at Krav Maga and dismisses it as LARPing and someone who looks at BJJ and says it wouldn't work in the street are both just as wrong as someone who says boxing is dumb because they have no take-down defense.


Jared Traveler said:


> Am I the only one who can't stand "Icey Mike"?


He's hit-or-miss for me.  A perfect example of both is his endorsement of flashlights as self-defense weapons, when compared with guns.  He is very correct about their utility as a self-defense weapon and various ways in which you can use them.  But then he goes on to say that the only thing you can do with a gun is shoot someone, when very often the mere presence of a gun will scare off an attacker, or you can use the gun to keep a home invader compliant until the police arrive.  There's a lot more ways to use the gun in self defense than just "pew pew".

I was finding that I'd watch a video of his and subscribe, and then watch the next one and unsubscribe.  Eventually I just stopped subscribing.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Lot of people don’t like him, he’s confident, a lot of people in the martial arts world especially the self defense sub-sect don’t like it.
> His knowledge is also based on a lot of real world experience, something the overwhelming majority of the self style self defense gurus lack, so his confidence irks them, and much what he says contradicts what they believe.
> 
> If these reasons are not your reasons I hope you don’t take this personally.


Ha! No, his experience is part of why I try to give him a pass. But with that said, as a cop I think I would turn him down as a partner and not let him hump calls with me.


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## skribs (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Lot of people don’t like him, he’s confident, a lot of people in the martial arts world especially the self defense sub-sect don’t like it.
> His knowledge is also based on a lot of real world experience, something the overwhelming majority of the self style self defense gurus lack, so his confidence irks them, and much what he says contradicts what they believe.
> 
> If these reasons are not your reasons I hope you don’t take this personally.


Eh...he does say a lot of wrong things though.  I mentioned in my above post about how "the only thing you can do with a gun is shoot them".

But there are some videos that he tests things, and there's flaws in his methods.  A big example is when he (and a few others) were testing how easy it is to protect yourself from a groin kick.  It's similar to the guy who was showing off how to avoid getting punched in the head.  It is very easy to protect a single part of your body if you are not also required to counterattack.  

An exaggerated example is if you win by slapping my left hand, and I win if you don't, then I'm just going to turn my body so I'm pushing you with my right hand, and my left hand is behind me.  

I've taken enough groin shots in Taekwondo and in my 3 months of BJJ to know that it's not so easy to defend against 100% of them.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Am I the only one who can't stand "Icey Mike"?


A lot of these online backyard or street fighter types (who actually train) can get a little full of themselves.

What I've seen of Icy Mike wasn't the worst I've seen, and he has been in a few videos of the typical "calling you out!" Variety, which can be funny/sad/scary depending.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Ha! No, his experience is part of why I try to give him a pass. But with that said, as a cop I think I would turn him down as a partner and not let him hump calls with me.


He’s got a sense of humor that is similar to mine, but according to my gf my sense of humor might be why I don’t have friends these days lol.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 2, 2022)

I actually watched the video now. The reason I don't like Mike is because my impression is, he's seems like he's probably a jerk most of the time. As a former/current cop, I hate that in cops the most.

With that said, the video seemed like a lot of rambling. What part of his opinion were you most in agreement with?


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## drop bear (Nov 3, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I actually watched the video now. The reason I don't like Mike is because my impression is, he's seems like he's probably a jerk most of the time. As a former/current cop, I hate that in cops the most.
> 
> With that said, the video seemed like a lot of rambling. What part of his opinion were you most in agreement with?



I am the other way and don't like the LEO image that SDers tend to use.

If someone says brachiel stun I basically switch off.


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## Tez3 (Nov 3, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Am I the only one who can't stand "Icey Mike"?


I've never heard of him and I learnt nothing on Google about him but I really, really wish I hadn't looked.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I actually watched the video now. The reason I don't like Mike is because my impression is, he's seems like he's probably a jerk most of the time. As a former/current cop, I hate that in cops the most.
> 
> With that said, the video seemed like a lot of rambling. What part of his opinion were you most in agreement with?


That there’s little to no physical specialized self defense training necessary for an experienced sport fighter. Most of the training necessary will be mental/psychological, changing the the approach rather than any physical techniques used.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I've never heard of him and I learnt nothing on Google about him but I really, really wish I hadn't looked.


He's a former cop who makes a lot of hot takes about martial arts and self-defense.  Some of his takes I agree with, some I disagree, and some I'm somewhere in the middle on.  If I give him the benefit of the doubt, I think his main goal is to get people to think outside of their bubble, because he will sometimes side with the sport guys, and sometimes with the self-defense guys.

The problem is he doesn't come across like he's thinking outside of his bubble.  Every one of his hot takes is delivered as if it is undisputable fact, and if you're going to do that, then you should be right 100% of the time.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

A good counter example to Icy Mike's style is Ramsey Dewey.  

The "Chill the hell out" modality is far more valuable imho, than the gonzo style stuff Mike has been into.

And for those who don't know, that's involved a lot of Ninjas.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> A good counter example to Icy Mike's style is Ramsey Dewey.
> 
> The "Chill the hell out" modality is far more valuable imho, than the gonzo style stuff Mike has been into.
> 
> And for those who don't know, that's involved a lot of Ninjas.


I actually have the same problems with Ramsey Dewey as I do Icy Mike.  He'll test ideas, do them wrong, and then claim they don't work.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> I actually have the same problems with Ramsey Dewey as I do Icy Mike.  He'll test ideas, do them wrong, and then claim they don't work.


It's all about the tone, for me.

Ramsey engages me.

Mike used to intrigue me, he turned me off this one time he shamelessly beat up a mentally deranged lunatic on camera, someone who clearly needed psychiatric help but ended up in Icy Mike's web.  Most of this I only know from reading other MA websites, but yeah...at least Ramsey is academic about it.  And he makes mistakes.  Sometimes he owns up, sometimes not.  Not an easy game to play, you know.

People like Icy Mike actually beat up sick people on camera, which I don't think is cool.

Honestly, I can beat up a lot of people, I would never put them on public display for laughs.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's all about the tone, for me.
> 
> Ramsey engages me.
> 
> ...


Can you link a video?  This is a very bold claim and I've never seen him do this.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> Can you link a video?  This is a very bold claim and I've never seen him do this.


I'd rather not.  I'm sure if you go look it's under one of this challenge fights, but some mental patient/convict who claimed to be a ninja ended up doing a backyard fight and Mike clocked this dude who was probably drugged out at the time, he himself was a big YouTuber ninja.  There were years of forum fallout after.

There's a whole 10+ year history of these fights, but honestly, seeing Mike hurt this dude bothered me.  Don't hit sick people man....what's wrong with just training.

I just think online fights are the dumbest thing the Internet produced.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'd rather not.  I'm sure if you go look it's under one of this challenge fights, but some mental patient/convict who claimed to be a ninja ended up doing a backyard fight and Mike clocked this dude who was probably drugged out at the time, he himself was a big YouTuber ninja.  There were years of forum fallout after.
> 
> There's a whole 10+ year history of these fights, but honestly, seeing Mike hurt this dude bothered me.  Don't hit sick people man....what's wrong with just training.
> 
> I just think online fights are the dumbest thing the Internet produced.


Did both fighters consent to the fight?  If so, you can't really blame him.  If he's going around picking fights with homeless people, then yes, it's a problem.

Like I said, this is a wild accusation, and if you're not going to back it up, then I recommend not making it.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> Did both fighters consent to the fight?  If so, you can't really blame him.  If he's going around picking fights with homeless people, then yes, it's a problem.
> 
> Like I said, this is a wild accusation, and if you're not going to back it up, then I recommend not making it.


The guy might have actually been homeless.  He was definitely insane and walking down streets filming himself.

I backed it up, too.  I pointed out it's on Google.

I don't want to violate the TOS.  Can I post challenge fights here?  I consider this NSFW.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The guy might have actually been homeless.  He was definitely insane and walking down streets filming himself.
> 
> I backed it up, too.  I pointed out it's on Google.
> 
> I don't want to violate the TOS.  Can I post challenge fights here?  I consider this NSFW.


Everything is on Google, it doesn't narrow it down.

If you don't want to post it publicly, feel free to send me a private message.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> Everything is on Google, it doesn't narrow it down.
> 
> If you don't want to post it publicly, feel free to send me a private message.


Great idea.  Incoming.

How do I send you a PM?  If I hit Start Conversation, can anyone else see it?

This is "sometimes, dead is better" stuff IMHO.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Great idea.  Incoming.
> 
> How do I send you a PM?  If I hit Start Conversation, can anyone else see it?
> 
> This is "sometimes, dead is better" stuff IMHO.


The "Start Conversation" button initiates a private chat between you and the person you are messaging. No one else can see it, not even the mods, unless you invite them to join the conversation.


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## drop bear (Nov 3, 2022)

I think you can be a big fish in those street beef style ponds pretty easily with a bit of natural talent and some training.

Which makes sense that the conclusion that being able to fight. Is most of fighting.

Which has been my experience as well.

Anyway this is icey mike in street beefs against the first random guy I could find. So people get the general idea.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think you can be a big fish in those street beef style ponds pretty easily with a bit of natural talent and some training.
> 
> Which makes sense that the conclusion that being able to fight. Is most of fighting.
> 
> ...


Did you catch the part where he said somebody going for a single leg is sign they don't spar often?  Then says his jujutsu is bad.  OK man thanks for the double bind 

Maybe he was surprised, and his opponent almost beat him, but by the end of the video it ended well.  When people beef, meet up, and become friends that's great.

It doesn't always pan out that way and when it doesn't it creates bad mojo, sometimes on a massive scale.


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## drop bear (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Did you catch the part where he said somebody going for a single leg is sign they don't spar often?  Then says his jujutsu is bad.  OK man thanks for the double bind
> 
> Maybe he was surprised, and his opponent almost beat him, but by the end of the video it ended well.  When people beef, meet up, and become friends that's great.
> 
> It doesn't always pan out that way and when it doesn't it creates bad mojo, sometimes on a massive scale.



I didn't watch all of it. So I don't really have context.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Great idea. Incoming.


I watched it.  I didn't really see anything to suggest this was him maliciously picking fights with mentally ill, or anything to suggest he took the fight too far.


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## Jared Traveler (Nov 3, 2022)

If I was to move past the fact that I try not to watch things from Mike, and comment on the suggestion that sports fighting is good training for self-defense training, with the acception of shifting your mindset and making minor adjustments, I totally agree.

I think most people feel that way and agree with that. So I must be missing something?


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> He's a former cop who makes a lot of hot takes about martial arts and self-defense.  Some of his takes I agree with, some I disagree, and some I'm somewhere in the middle on.  If I give him the benefit of the doubt, I think his main goal is to get people to think outside of their bubble, because he will sometimes side with the sport guys, and sometimes with the self-defense guys.
> 
> The problem is he doesn't come across like he's thinking outside of his bubble.  Every one of his hot takes is delivered as if it is undisputable fact, and if you're going to do that, then you should be right 100% of the time.


No different from anyone else in the self defense community really, and in my opinion it’s about the only way to get through to those who believe 100% in the BS they were taught.

My experience with protecting myself and others physically as part of my profession lines up completely with what mike says.

You may say he doesn’t step outside his bubble, but for that to be true, he must have a very large bubble. 
He trains with sports guys all stripes and colors, he trains with various self defense types, and he always accepts that he may be wrong, or that what he says may not be for everyone.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> Eh...he does say a lot of wrong things though.  I mentioned in my above post about how "the only thing you can do with a gun is shoot them".
> 
> But there are some videos that he tests things, and there's flaws in his methods.  A big example is when he (and a few others) were testing how easy it is to protect yourself from a groin kick.  It's similar to the guy who was showing off how to avoid getting punched in the head.  It is very easy to protect a single part of your body if you are not also required to counterattack.
> 
> ...


It’s not easy to defend against 100% of them, but I’ve also taken many. I wear a cup only when required for a competition, and have taken many, many groin shots. I have never taken one in a training scenario, sparring or otherwise that has left me in a puddle unable to fight like so many seem to believe.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> If I was to move past the fact that I try not to watch things from Mike, and comment on the suggestion that sports fighting is good training for self-defense training, with the acception of shifting your mindset and making minor adjustments, I totally agree.
> 
> I think most people feel that way and agree with that. So I must be missing something?


My experience is the opposite especially since most self defense guys never make any attempt to compete full contact, and claim that sport creates bad habits, and that they don’t train the ‘best and most effective techniques’ for self defense.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'd rather not.  I'm sure if you go look it's under one of this challenge fights, but some mental patient/convict who claimed to be a ninja ended up doing a backyard fight and Mike clocked this dude who was probably drugged out at the time, he himself was a big YouTuber ninja.  There were years of forum fallout after.
> 
> There's a whole 10+ year history of these fights, but honestly, seeing Mike hurt this dude bothered me.  Don't hit sick people man....what's wrong with just training.
> 
> I just think online fights are the dumbest thing the Internet produced.


…he was a fraud sure, but calling him homeless, or mentally is just down right disrespectful.

Online fights such as street beefs are no different than any other amateur promotion, and every promotion has equal right and claim to posting their events online.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 3, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> My experience is the opposite especially since most self defense guys never make any attempt to compete full contact, and claim that sport creates bad habits, and that they don’t train the ‘best and most effective techniques’ for self defense.


My experience is that most of the people I know who train for self-defense, either have competed full-contact, or train with those who have. The idea of the people that train for self-defense but do not actually pressure-test/compete is not one I've found accurate.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The guy might have actually been homeless.  He was definitely insane and walking down streets filming himself.
> 
> I backed it up, too.  I pointed out it's on Google.
> 
> I don't want to violate the TOS.  Can I post challenge fights here?  I consider this NSFW.


You’re being a massive drama queen. It’s an amateur fight promotion, there not even any visible blood in the video.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> Did both fighters consent to the fight?  If so, you can't really blame him.  If he's going around picking fights with homeless people, then yes, it's a problem.
> 
> Like I said, this is a wild accusation, and if you're not going to back it up, then I recommend not making it.


Here’s the video he’s so afraid to show.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> I watched it.  I didn't really see anything to suggest this was him maliciously picking fights with mentally ill, or anything to suggest he took the fight too far.


Read my response.  It's likely that Icy Mike didn't know the caliber of the psycho he fought that day.

He's lucky that dude didn't return and shoot him dead.

That's the risk you run picking real fights with online trolls.  You might knock a few out, some might carve you up and make you into lampshades.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> You’re being a massive drama queen. It’s an amateur fight promotion, there not even any visible blood in the video.


I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Look into the background of the guy in that video.  Not only is he mentally ill, he's a criminal predator and firearm felon.

If you knew the whole story of how he met Icy Mike, it would blow your mind.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Here’s the video he’s so afraid to show.


That wasn't the video.  

You really don't know the history of this guy Mike fought? 

You don't know drama queens, Jon Snow.  That video you posted contains 2 of the biggest online, but the one who isn't Mike is a well known danger to society (legally).


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> That wasn't the video.
> 
> You really don't know the history of this guy Mike fought?
> 
> You don't know drama queens, Jon Snow.  That video you posted contains 2 of the biggest online, but the one who isn't Mike is a well known danger to society (legally).


You said he believed himself a ninja, this is ninja Ron. Stop acting a fool and post the video.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I don't think you know what you're talking about.
> 
> Look into the background of the guy in that video.  Not only is he mentally ill, he's a criminal predator and firearm felon.
> 
> If you knew the whole story of how he met Icy Mike, it would blow your mind.


I googled him. Nothing but this video comes up. So how about you just share all of this **** you claim to have for all to see instead of making a big stage show out of it.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> You said he believed himself a ninja, this is ninja Ron. Stop acting a fool and post the video.


No.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I googled him. Nothing but this video comes up. So how about you just share all of this **** you claim to have for all to see instead of making a big stage show out of it.


Try harder.  The guy is a registered criminal offender whose insane origin story is unworthy of the MT community.

I only even mentioned it because it was my last memory of Icy Mike (punching a crazy criminal psycho on camera), and somebody said "hey, whaddya think about....".


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 3, 2022)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS: Fraudbusting is not allowed on this site, along with any similar claims discrediting other martial artists. Please keep that in mind when posting/requesting evidence from other posters.

Thank you,*
Martialtalk Moderator
William H.
@Monkey Turned Wolf


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## GojuTommy (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Try harder.  The guy is a registered criminal offender whose insane origin story is unworthy of the MT community.
> 
> I only even mentioned it because it was my last memory of Icy Mike (punching a crazy criminal psycho on camera), and somebody said "hey, whaddya think about....".


Do you understand how algorithms work? There’s billions possibly trillions of things on google, and you haven’t even told me which person it is since apparently it wasn’t ninja Ron.
So again put up or shut up.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Do you understand how algorithms work? There’s billions possibly trillions of things on google, and you haven’t even told me which person it is since apparently it wasn’t ninja Ron.
> So again put up or shut up.


I understand that you are in the dark.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> *ATTENTION ALL USERS: Fraudbusting is not allowed on this site, along with any similar claims discrediting other martial artists. Please keep that in mind when posting/requesting evidence from other posters.
> 
> Thank you,*
> Martialtalk Moderator
> ...


This is why I was cautious before about posting challenge videos.

I feel reposting these videos violates the privacy rights of people who are not right in the head.


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## skribs (Nov 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is why I was cautious before about posting challenge videos.
> 
> I feel reposting these videos violates the privacy rights of people who are not right in the head.


It's not a violation of privacy if they've already posted it to youtube.  They put it out into the public.

However, if you know that the evidence of a claim is against the rules, then maybe just don't make the claim in the first place?  And especially don't have such a high horse about how much you supposedly know about this very specific situation.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 3, 2022)

skribs said:


> It's not a violation of privacy if they've already posted it to youtube.  They put it out into the public.
> 
> However, if you know that the evidence of a claim is against the rules, then maybe just don't make the claim in the first place?  And especially don't have such a high horse about how much you supposedly know about this very specific situation.


I'm talking about me, reposting.  Not them.  Sometimes, just don't.

Everything I've claimed is supported by the legal system.  Search function!!!

High horse?  I'd ask you why you're so concerned but was just reminded fraudbusting is off limits.

Glad we see eye to eye now, though.


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## Cynik75 (Nov 4, 2022)

There are 3 Icy Mike's fights for Streetbeefs on youtube:
Ninja Ron:





Corey Guns:





Tha Dragon:


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## GojuTommy (Nov 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is why I was cautious before about posting challenge videos.
> 
> I feel reposting these videos violates the privacy rights of people who are not right in the head.


They said nothing about fight videos. You’re making claims about a martial artist, and apparently that’s not allowed for some stupid reason


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 4, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> They said nothing about fight videos. You’re making claims about a martial artist, and apparently that’s not allowed for some stupid reason


Well, the only claim I made is that Icy Mike once beat up Ron Collins on camera, and Ron Collins is a well documented criminal convict,  mental patient, stalker, and online troll (and Stolen Valor guy iirc, he used to post on forums like MT, but devoted to special operators...and they caught him).

Consent is a tricky thing when dealing with people with serious mental health issues.  I'm not a medical doctor but when I saw that particular fight (and I've seen many) it didn't feel right.  Even knowing Ron Collins' background, I wanted to somehow warn Mike and even considered contacting law enforcement (for reasons that will be clear if you research Collins even a little, but it has to do with illegal firearm possession).

I've got nothing against Icy Mike, I just think in his quest to "street beef" he needs to be more careful with who he lets in.  A lot of these goofy little backyard or parking lot battles are forgettable.  And IMHO they should be avoided because they sometimes  attract crazy, dangerous people.

I don't view this info as "fraudbusting" because Collins is already a well known con, and this sort of thing should be open for discussion.  But I like to play by the rules here, so I tread carefully, assuming people can go read Google on their own if they really want to see inside the mind of an insane Internet Ninja.


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## Tez3 (Nov 4, 2022)

"Street beefs" really? People really do this sort of childish, macho BS?
It's ridiculous.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 4, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> "Street beefs" really? People really do this sort of childish, macho BS?
> It's ridiculous.


So there is a TOS rule against forum warring, and again treading lightly, but some forums where martial artist congregate actually encourage this sort of meet and bang.  Won't name the forums but I'm sure some people know.

When done in the friendly spirit of open competition, this is great!!  Networks of cool people sharing MA have emerged.  Actually Icy Mike pointed out his fight with Dragon ended with them friending up.  And he's generally a nice guy, IMHO, if somewhat full of himself on camera (everyone needs a gimmick).

Sadly though there are many instances out there of people arguing and posturing online before they meet, and it rarely ends well.  Talk about drama, I have seen these types of fights turn into YEARS of Internet drama, more fighting, and other general stupid.

A few of these though have left me worried for the health and safety of one or both of the participants.  This was one of those.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well, the only claim I made is that Icy Mike once beat up Ron Collins on camera, and Ron Collins is a well documented criminal convict,  mental patient, stalker, and online troll (and Stolen Valor guy iirc, he used to post on forums like MT, but devoted to special operators...and they caught him).
> 
> Consent is a tricky thing when dealing with people with serious mental health issues.  I'm not a medical doctor but when I saw that particular fight (and I've seen many) it didn't feel right.  Even knowing Ron Collins' background, I wanted to somehow warn Mike and even considered contacting law enforcement (for reasons that will be clear if you research Collins even a little, but it has to do with illegal firearm possession).
> 
> ...


What does ‘mental patient’ even mean to you? Consent is not tricky. Has he been. Legally adjudicated as being incompetent? No? Then consent is very straight forward.

The CDC says more than 50% of americans will have mental health issues, so that’s a poor argument


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 4, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> What does ‘mental patient’ even mean to you? Consent is not tricky. Has he been. Legally adjudicated as being incompetent? No? Then consent is very straight forward.
> 
> The CDC says more than 50% of americans will have mental health issues, so that’s a poor argument


You're still missing the point.

Ron Collins is a previously convicted sex offender and online predator, with a heavily documented online history of butting heads with law enforcement, AND online martial arts personalities.  Icy Mike is just one.

So to me in this case "mental patient" means something very specific. That general random statistic doesn't really matter here.

Online predator, with a rap sheet, including illegal gun possession, hunting down other martial artists with a beef, and you think it's a joke or something?  Do I really need to start sending you Ron Collins videos for you to get it? 

I refuse to post them openly here.  As I said before, MT is too good a place.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're still missing the point.
> 
> Ron Collins is a previously convicted sex offender and online predator, with a heavily documented online history of butting heads with law enforcement, AND online martial arts personalities.  Icy Mike is just one.
> 
> ...


So you refuse to provide evidence of your claims. Go figure.


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> "Street beefs" really? People really do this sort of childish, macho BS?
> It's ridiculous.



You should check out a brophy tent


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 4, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So you refuse to provide evidence of your claims. Go figure.


Did I?

Should I post mugshots on MT, to appease your lust?  Criminal charges, convictions, countless encounters with law enforcement.  

Would you like some links to the special ops forum?  Conspiracy rants filmed while driving motor vehicles targeting West Virginia State Police?  Threats of violence, retribution, vengeance?

Maybe you should just move along.  You're a bit too eager to look into the mind of a seriously deranged man.

Fine.  Here's a bit to help you out if that's the case.  Look into Ron vs. Don (ninjas both).  And leave me alone about this going forward, please.  It was disturbing enough the first time I witnessed it.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 4, 2022)

Watch this video in full, if you really want to know how unaware Icy Mike was.  He makes a comment about the sketchy location.  He has no idea who he's fighting with (criminal predator).

He's worried about how the web took him not touching gloves, so he made this reaction video. It's so naive, it'd be cute if it wasn't deadly serious stuff.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 4, 2022)

Interesting segue.


Oily Dragon said:


> Watch this video in full, if you really want to know how unaware Icy Mike was.  He makes a comment about the sketchy location.  He has no idea who he's fighting with (criminal predator).
> 
> He's worried about how the web took him not touching gloves, so he made this reaction video. It's so naive, it'd be cute if it wasn't deadly serious stuff.


And consider the sport vs. self defense implications of this.

What if your sparring/throwdown partner is a deranged loon?


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 4, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> "Street beefs" really? People really do this sort of childish, macho BS?
> It's ridiculous.


Despite the name, it’s just a entry-tier amateur MMA promotion.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Interesting segue.
> 
> And consider the sport vs. self defense implications of this.
> 
> What if your sparring/throwdown partner is a deranged loon?


Are you just talking it yourself or did you forget to switch accounts?


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## GojuTommy (Nov 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Did I?
> 
> Should I post mugshots on MT, to appease your lust?  Criminal charges, convictions, countless encounters with law enforcement.
> 
> ...


Lol, I’ve asked for proof, a mugshot, a news article. You’ve refused to provide any.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 4, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Despite the name, it’s just a entry-tier amateur MMA promotion.


They also do boxing and kickboxing or MT as well.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 4, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You should check out a brophy tent


Just looked it up but seems a lot more legit as it is following a historical tradition of roaming tent fight promotions lol


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Are you just talking it yourself or did you forget to switch accounts?


What?


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Lol, I’ve asked for proof, a mugshot, a news article. You’ve refused to provide any.


On the contrary I posted more than enough to keep you busy all weekend.  Do your own homework!

You might just be on the wrong website, bub.  Please don't try to shine me on with your aggressive tude.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> They also do boxing and kickboxing or MT as well.


Are you personally affiliated?

I'm trying to understand why you're so emotionally invested in this particular tangent.

I know why I am, I watched Icy Mike beat up a felon and worried about his well being, and wondered why the other guy wasn't incarcerated.


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## Tez3 (Nov 5, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Despite the name, it’s just a entry-tier amateur MMA promotion.


I'd have thought people would just laugh at it, it's a ridiculous name. 


We don't have a tradition here of roaming tents fighting 😂, there were bare knuckle fights at fairgrounds between humans though. The bare knuckle fights we still have and the gypsy fights of course.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I'd have thought people would just laugh at it, it's a ridiculous name.
> 
> 
> We don't have a tradition here of roaming tents fighting 😂, there were bare knuckle fights at fairgrounds between humans though. The bare knuckle fights we still have and the gypsy fights of course.


Romani wrestling traditions are awesome.

So awesome, a massive Puerto Rican pro wrestler decided one day to become "Gypsy Joe".  Rocking that singlet.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> On the contrary I posted more than enough to keep you busy all weekend.  Do your own homework!
> 
> You might just be on the wrong website, bub.  Please don't try to shine me on with your aggressive tude.


You’ve made claims. You’ve posted no evidence to support your claims


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## GojuTommy (Nov 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Are you personally affiliated?
> 
> I'm trying to understand why you're so emotionally invested in this particular tangent.
> 
> I know why I am, I watched Icy Mike beat up a felon and worried about his well being, and wondered why the other guy wasn't incarcerated.


I’m not emotionally invested just tired of people making claims online acting like everyone should just believe them.

He beat up a felon in an amateur fight promotion? Who cares? Are you related to Rob? Is that why you’re apparently so invested emotionally?


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> You’ve made claims. You’ve posted no evidence to support your claims


I don't have to, and the mods already warned you to stop demanding evidence.

Public record is public record.  Do your own homework, if you're so interested.

And I've asked you twice to stop.  You are so not exhibiting MT spirit right now.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I’m not emotionally invested just tired of people making claims online acting like everyone should just believe them.
> 
> He beat up a felon in an amateur fight promotion? Who cares? Are you related to Rob? Is that why you’re apparently so invested emotionally?


Rob who?

I don't think you even know what's going on right now.

I get concerned when online martial artists pick backyard fights with criminal predators who might come back and bust a cap or shank their liver, so yeah, I'm a little invested.  And hearing "what you guys think about Icy Mike" triggered me.

What's your excuse for being obtuse?  Low self opinion?


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Interesting segue.
> 
> And consider the sport vs. self defense implications of this.
> 
> What if your sparring/throwdown partner is a deranged loon?



Bump.

Oh, and "Did you forget to switch accounts"

Just wow.  I think it's safe to say GojuTommy is not here in good faith.  Even when I tried to get the thread back on the rails, this dude is a crazy train and accusing me of what exactly?

Dude maybe just chill out.  This isn't court, it's a chat.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

Speaking of court, it's come to my attention that Ron Collins is now currently serving a 5 year prison sentence for weapon possession (lying on ATF forms about not previously being in a mental institution).









						Federal Jury Finds Greenbrier County Man Guilty on Federal Gun Charges
					






					www.justice.gov
				




This is on top of all the other charges/convictions that can easily be googled.

"_assaulting a police officer, stalking, intimidation, malicioulooos wounding, terrorist threats, possession of child porn, delinquency of minors, and possibly attempting to use alcohol and rape drugs to have sex with a freaking 13-year-girl_" to quote one MMA website in 2017 (1-2 years before he was tracked down and charged with up to 20 years, got 60 months and a few years of supervised probation).

Did I mention he was trained by Ashida Kim?

Pick your fights carefully, folks.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Speaking of court, it's come to my attention that Ron Collins is now currently serving a 5 year prison sentence for weapon possession (lying on ATF forms about not previously being in a mental institution).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m still trying to figure out what any of this has to do with the subject.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 5, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I’m still trying to figure out what any of this has to do with the subject.


Well that's easy, go read your original post.

_"For a skilled sport fighter, often an adjustment of mindset and being able to quickly identify which mindset you need, along with some discussion about tactics and the actual goal of self defense is all the additional training needed_"

Icy Mike was not prepared for his opponent, in a self defense sense.

He was clueless.  He was worried about the location and how he'd look on camera, shaking hands, touching gloves?

Being a skilled sports fighter is not enough to defend yourself from a dangerous criminal predator.

When I said he was lucky he wasn't skinned and made into a lampshade, I wasn't exaggerating.  I was being deadly serious.  Collins had a hit list.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well that's easy, go read your original post.
> 
> _"For a skilled sport fighter, often an adjustment of mindset and being able to quickly identify which mindset you need, along with some discussion about tactics and the actual goal of self defense is all the additional training needed_"
> 
> ...



Well it kind of was though.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 6, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Well it kind of was though.


Kind of was what?


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## Cynik75 (Nov 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > . The bare knuckle fights we still have and the gypsy fights of course.
> ...


Irish Gypsies are Travellers (and their bareknuckle fights vide "snatch" movie) , they are not the Romani Gypsies. First have Celts/Irish ancestry, second come from India.
 I really doubt if Romani(Roma)  have any wrestling traditions - there was quite a lot Roma/Gypsies in my neighbourhood when I was a kid in 80' in Poland and they have no connection to any kind of sport. Dance, singing, palmistry, thievery, begging but not sport.  Later in 90' tens of thousands of Roma/Gypsies from Romania came to Poland (Romanians do not like Roma at all) and they all were thefts and beggars. 
There is quite big minority of Roma in Slovakia and Bulgaria  and they live in ghettos which look like poorest brazilian favelas or african villages (Roma were forced by communists in East Europe to abandon their nomadic lifestyle and live in the cities/villages). 
Nobody here have ever heard about Roma wrestlers.


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## Tez3 (Nov 6, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> Irish Gypsies are Travellers (and their bareknuckle fights vide "snatch" movie) , they are not the Romani Gypsies. First have Celts/Irish ancestry, second come from India.
> I really doubt if Romani(Roma)  have any wrestling traditions - there was quite a lot Roma/Gypsies in my neighbourhood when I was a kid in 80' in Poland and they have no connection to any kind of sport. Dance, singing, palmistry, thievery, begging but not sport.  Later in 90' tens of thousands of Roma/Gypsies from Romania came to Poland (Romanians do not like Roma at all) and they all were thefts and beggars.
> There is quite big minority of Roma in Slovakia and Bulgaria  and they live in ghettos which look like poorest brazilian favelas or african villages (Roma were forced by communists in East Europe to abandon their nomadic lifestyle and live in the cities/villages).
> Nobody here have ever heard about Roma wrestlers.


My post was about fighting not ethnicities, if they identify as gypsies, in the UK we call them that.


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## drop bear (Nov 6, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Kind of was what?



He did defend himself against ninja Ron.


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## Cynik75 (Nov 6, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> My post was about fighting not ethnicities, if they identify as gypsies, in the UK we call them that.


Yes, but my post was a response to Oil Dragon who confused Irish Gypsies with Romani Gypsies. EOT.


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## Tez3 (Nov 6, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> Yes, but my post was a response to Oil Dragon who confused Irish Gypsies with Romani Gypsies. EOT.


And that matters?


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## Cynik75 (Nov 6, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> And that matters?


Not very much


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## Tez3 (Nov 6, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> Not very much


No, especially when sharing racial slurs and stereotypes.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 6, 2022)

These guys always look like they’re having fun together.
Seth busts out the sport karate for the 6v1


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## GojuTommy (Nov 6, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well that's easy, go read your original post.
> 
> _"For a skilled sport fighter, often an adjustment of mindset and being able to quickly identify which mindset you need, along with some discussion about tactics and the actual goal of self defense is all the additional training needed_"
> 
> ...


Ok bro.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 6, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> Irish Gypsies are Travellers (and their bareknuckle fights vide "snatch" movie) , they are not the Romani Gypsies. First have Celts/Irish ancestry, second come from India.
> I really doubt if Romani(Roma)  have any wrestling traditions - there was quite a lot Roma/Gypsies in my neighbourhood when I was a kid in 80' in Poland and they have no connection to any kind of sport. Dance, singing, palmistry, thievery, begging but not sport.  Later in 90' tens of thousands of Roma/Gypsies from Romania came to Poland (Romanians do not like Roma at all) and they all were thefts and beggars.
> There is quite big minority of Roma in Slovakia and Bulgaria  and they live in ghettos which look like poorest brazilian favelas or african villages (Roma were forced by communists in East Europe to abandon their nomadic lifestyle and live in the cities/villages).
> Nobody here have ever heard about Roma wrestlers.


I didn't catch the Irish part but I definitely know of the Travellers.  Into the West is my favorite movies about horses.  I should have known because Gypsy in the Asian sense been considered a slur for 50 years (because of it's connotation with criminal activity, which is just a little racist).

This is probably fodder for a whole different thread but Roma traditions definitely include hand to hand fighting traditions  This is pretty typical for any nomadic people, and like all diasporas they are a potpourri of stuff passed down and picked up a long the way.

Interesting research topic for another day.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 6, 2022)

drop bear said:


> He did defend himself against ninja Ron.


On camera sure.  My point was Mike wasn't aware that the guy he was fighting was also a criminal lunatic who was hunting down his online adversaries (Mike was not the only one Collins tracked down, there's video out there of him trespassing into other schools trying to start fights with other martial arts peeps).

So self defense wise he was in trouble.  Wins the fist fight, gets clubbed over the head with a pipe and we never see him again.  This is easier to swallow if you ever read Ron Collins' many essays online about being a ninja (ie anything goes with ninjutsu, you come at me with fists, you die in your sleep type insanity).

It's really a special case of picking fights with strangers.  You don't typically have this issue with actual classes and training, or legit competition,  people aren't showing up to start trouble.  That's exactly what happened here.

From Kimbo Slice to Icy Mike to Xu Xiaodong, it's important to know your enemy up front.

Sun Tzu 101.

Out of respect for the mods, that'll be the last post I discuss this travesty but I hope at least some people get it.


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## Hanshi (Nov 6, 2022)

Martial arts training in the dojo works like learning about and shooting rifles in the USA Army.  If your skills (with s-d in mind) in the martial arts don't get worked correctly and frequently your weapons will dull.  If the recruit doesn't follow the information on aiming/trigger control and his lack of skills are so-so, the recruit will not be of much use or effective in combat when the time comes.


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