# Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma: for Training or Fighting



## geezer (Jan 4, 2009)

Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma, the "Character-Two Adduction Stance", also called "Goat Riding Stance" (in my lineage)... is it just for training, or does it have fighting applications too? On another thread, _Eru Iluvatar_ pointed out that in his lineage, it is taught primarily as a training stance, but that he was intrigued by Emin Boztepe's ideas about using it in fighting. _Mook_ responded that in his own lineage (Tsui Sheung Tin/Jim Fung?) that it is used as a fighting stance. Any comments?


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## Mystic Wolf (Jan 4, 2009)

We use it as are primary fighting stance. The tension in your adducts helps you keep rooted and you are able to spring in any direction when needed to. It is like a big rubber band or a big spring shooting your body forward while keeping rooted and still able to maintain structure.


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## Si-Je (Jan 4, 2009)

It's my favorite fighting stance. From that position you can easily turn left or right, pivot either way, kick with either leg, and transition to the advanced stance (or one leg forward stance) into the opponent's footwork. 
This stance actually helps me to keep from being taken down by a grappler.  At the very least from here you can pivot either way, sprawl with either leg faster, your already rooted making it harder to pick you up and makes the takedown at least take longer for them to perform allowing you time to strike and change your body position, and it's much easier than from advanced stance (for me anyways at my level.  Sifu can root in advanced stance just as well). I'm more rooted and my stucture even in arm techniques are more solid.

I didn't realize folks didn't use it so much as a fighting stance. 
But this stance used in fighting and defense I've found to be absolutely cruitial in all aspects of my  WC/WT. It simply will improve everything you do from chainpunching power, to chi sau, to sparring if it is trained to use in application and real-time fighting. 

I wouldn't be able to withstand a larger heaver opponent's full force strikes without it. I wouldn't be able to turn sifu hubbie's body and deflect him when I step into his attacks without it. Rooting while fighting is key for a smaller person to deflect, defend, and attack with any sort of real power against a bigger attacker.  It's the base of the pilar in your "house".

It took me a long time to learn to root with the one leg forward stance, so largely I only use that stance when stepping into a opponent's fighting stance. I call it "wedge stance" because I mainly just use it to "wedge" into the footing of an attacker and "trip" or dislodge their foundation.
All other times, I'm in basic (goat gripping/riding) stance.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 4, 2009)

> It's my favorite fighting stance. From that position you can easily turn left or right, pivot either way, and transition to the advanced stance (or one leg forward stance).
> This stance actually helps you to keep from being taken down by a grappler at least from here you can pivot either way much easier than from advanced stance, your more rooted and your stucture even in arm techniques are more solid.
> I didn't realize folks didn't use it so much as a fighting stance.
> But this stance used in fighting and defense I've found to be absolutely cruitial in all aspects of your WC/WT. It simply will improve everything you do from chainpunching power, to chi sau, to sparring if it is trained to use in application and real-time fighting.
> ...


 
I couldn't agree more on the importance of rooting and structure in fighting! Especialy if your a women or skinny like me  About how I was thought(not saying it's better/not at all-I'm not even sure what works for me better yet); I was thought that first of all in most street cases you won't have time to go in your stance and prepare but there'll be punches flying without warning, then second if you put your guard out you increase the amount of variables that can happen(the guys has to get arround your arms-pak or something)-if you don't have a guard up the guy is most likely going to attack you centerline. This makes things easier in the sense becouse you will probably execute simultaneus defence attack moves easier(when you have a guard up the attacker knows your fighting and thus adustes the aproach/is expecting resistance).So when doing applications we had our arms down at our hips and standing in a relaxed shouldewidth stance. Then whatever he does you just go forward and react according to WC(if nothings there or if you have the "cut" angle you just punch through). If hes force is too strong you let yourself be 'pushed' sideways in a WC stance according to the situation while at the sam time deflecting and punching ofcourse.

I also like a lot Emin Boztepes aproach. He calls it street defence. What he teaches is that when confronted with an attacker you put your hand forward in a"hey dude I don't want any trouble" manner and not going in a guard and then if the guy attacks you just go forward and react according to what WC teaches. Now that I think about it.. I think that in these Ebmas "street defence" you don't go in a stance either.

I know I read on this forum from you guys that some of you don't do a man sao wu sao either. Would love to hear about you oppinions about that too!

Thanks for the responses and again I'm not saying anything is better just discusing..


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## Si-Je (Jan 4, 2009)

We practice like that too, at times. But realize, when your standing with your feet shouldwidth apart, all you have to do from there to be in "basic rooted stance" is to pivot your toes and knees inward. A very quick and simple movement and your rooted just like when your doing SLT.
You don't have to do the SLT opening stance movement. That's to teach the student how to get into basic stance, kinda like measureing the stance for the person's size.

This video I found the man is speaking Chinese (I'd love to be able to understand what he's desciribing) but he demonstrates "measuring" your stance in opening form, and at the end demostrates using rooted stance in fighting and stepping a bit. 





 
Here's Sifu Emin demonstrating where the power in punching and good arm technique structure coming from your "basic" stance, or YGKYM stance.
Boztepe punching and stance:





 
use of basic stance as starting point to "wedge stance" defending kicks. Always starts from basic.


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## paulus (Jan 4, 2009)

We use Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma as a fighting stance, though if you hold it in SLT for long enough it trains the legs too.


			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1098516 said:
			
		

> I also like a lot Emin Boztepes aproach. He calls it street defence. What he teaches is that when confronted with an attacker you put your hand forward in a"hey dude I don't want any trouble" manner and not going in a guard and then if the guy attacks you just go forward and react according to what WC teaches.


At the risk of going off topic, this putting your hand forward business is a common piece of advice in self defense classes. Here's a good video that explains the psychological advantage of doing it as a preemptive measure.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 4, 2009)

> We practice like that too, at times. But realize, when your standing with your feet shouldwidth apart, all you have to do from there to be in "basic rooted stance" is to pivot your toes and knees inward. A very quick and simple movement and your rooted just like when your doing SLT.
> You don't have to do the SLT opening stance movement. That's to teach the student how to get into basic stance, kinda like measureing the stance for the person's size.
> 
> This video I found the man is speaking Chinese (I'd love to be able to understand what he's desciribing) but he demonstrates "measuring" your stance in opening form, and at the end demostrates using rooted stance in fighting and stepping a bit.
> ...


 
That is very true and I realise that. One thing I would like to add is that one can use structure even without adduction(it is true your not as rooted but thats a difrent thing in my opinion) and I'm not sure if Emin is punching from Ygkym in the video. Especialy when he just strikes with hes back(locked arm) it shows hes legs for a bit but not while hes acctualy punching. So who knows. And about the wedge; one can use it even without being in Ygkmym and I do.

But I feel that with all movements that are pluses and minuses what WC seems to do is to just take the neutral approach and use the best of both sides. Saying that, while your not as rooted just standing your ar a bit more mobile and can do sidesteps easily as yournot pulling your legs together. And I know WC emphasizes economy of motion and on paper or in theory I would probably fight from Ygkym it's just that just standing there works beter for *me*. And as I said there are allwas + and- but one of the things why I mentioned that I like this approach is becouse as you noticed it's not far from Ygkym and therefore you can use most things that you would in it. On the other hand, the minus part of this techniqe is ofcourse that you don't have that "charged bow" as in Ygkym.



> At the risk of going off topic, this putting your hand forward business is a common piece of advice in self defense classes. Here's a good video that explains the psychological advantage of doing it as a preemptive measure.


 
Thats so true! I love that video. Who is this guy? Thanks!


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 4, 2009)

To Eru question about YGKYM or Side Bracing Stance. In the Martial World we practice stances as a routine. So one can get familiar to them. Be it standing on one leg,horse stance,Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma, Bow and Arrow stance...Etc etc. But when you about to get in a fight. You do not do the traditional Opening...

For instance there is this guy who hates me because my girl doesn't like him or something just straight up jealous. He doesn't know I practice WC. Anyway he is talking alot of crap but he has three body width distance away from me. I say sir I don't want a problem please leave me be. He continues on moving forward like he is going to hit me. I through up my Wu Sau guard. But I usually conceal it by holding up my fist instead of straight hands. He See I am ready to fight. Now my stance I can simply move my foot forward or just turn my leg backwards an I am already in Side Bracing stance. Thats one Scenario. 

Another Scenario is some guy swings on me an misses. I immediately bring up my gaurds and kick him in the stomach. When My foot goes down I step into the stance. Remember in WC. Every step is a kick and every kick is a step. So from kicking I go to WC stance.

Third Scenario Some guy tries to hit me with Round house kick. I see it coming in time. I may jump back out the way. From the jump I go in YGKYM or Side Bracing Stance. So realistically I can take a stance in mere seconds when I feel tension. My Gaurds come up automatically when a fight starts...Reason being is because my hands go where the fist goes. If the fist are coming at me. I am not going to have my hands by the sides of chest. Hand will be out and one leg forward and one leg backward so I move in quickly with springy powerful step to punch the guy in the nose with my body mass.

*The Key*:When I first started taking WC the steps felt awkward. I had to drill them over and over and over again. After that I to drill some more. Until they became natural. I would hundreds of steps on my own in my basement when I was teenager. I would do Freestyle moving Chi Sau with my Sidai all the time. We also do free sparring utilizing the steps. My mind was always thinking on how can I use the steps to my advantage to defeat my partner. Constant drilling,sparring and chi sau with the steps will make them natural. The key is practice. 

After awhile it will become natural and second nature. You will doing the steps with out even knowing your doing it. The Minute someone touches hands with me I go into the side stance or YGKYM immediately. Because it is engrained in me.


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## Si-Je (Jan 4, 2009)

But the question of basic stance not being readilly useable in a surprise attack or from standing regularly really made me think, and make a little video. 
Sifu has us stand normally and shift into basic stance, sometimes pushing us to where we have to step into basic quickly. It becomes very natural, we do this with our hands down too.


We went outside and made a little video real quick to show how versitile the basic stance is in moving naturally, and how quickly you can be rooted from a normal standing position going directly to basic stance. I tried to find more video's on youtube with stance work and couldn't find very many. 





 
I accidentally put this on the rooted and footwork thread.


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## Seeker (Jan 4, 2009)

paulus said:


> We use Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma as a fighting stance, though if you hold it in SLT for long enough it trains the legs too.
> 
> At the risk of going off topic, this putting your hand forward business is a common piece of advice in self defense classes. Here's a good video that explains the psychological advantage of doing it as a preemptive measure.



My first thought when reading the hand forward comment was Geoff Thompson's The Fence. It is common practice among RBSD people.


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## Seeker (Jan 4, 2009)

Where I study we consider the YGKYM a training stance, however we don't really have a set fighting stance. We train to fight from where we're standing, closest tool, closest attacking weapon. Move to the outside (if you can) offset the opponent's center line, etc.

So, if you happen to be facing someone square and you fall into your YGKYM, it isn't necessarily wrong. That's where you where.


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## mook jong man (Jan 4, 2009)

At a very high level in Wing Chun the stance can be a mental thing as well , by that I mean you think you are in your stance therefore you are , even if you are not , if you get my meaning . 

I remember someone asked Sigung Tsui about this once and he said that he can be in his stance even if he is swimming .

 So even if he is not properly in his stance , say for example he is bent over , he will mentally think in his own mind that his spine is straight and he is in his stance and it will work pretty much the same as if he was really in his stance .

As for YGKYM it is our fighting stance and only stance apart from when pivoting and performing the stepping in the Chum Kiu form which is considered to be an exercise in shifting your bodyweight and not a fighting stance .

 But having said that , it is only a stance , and one I feel very stable in , but there are strengths in other stances as well .

 From having done the stick and knife fighting I can now fight side on as well , and appreciate the massive distance someone can cover in a single lunge with a knife when they have trained for many years in this type of footwork that looks similar to fencing .

 But when the proverbial hits the fan I always tend to default back to YGKYM like it was an old comfortable pair of slippers.


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## geezer (Jan 4, 2009)

Seeker said:


> Where I study we consider the YGKYM a training stance, however we don't really have a set fighting stance. We train to fight from where we're standing, closest tool, closest attacking weapon. Move to the outside (if you can) offset the opponent's center line, etc.
> 
> So, if you happen to be facing someone square and you fall into your YGKYM, it isn't necessarily wrong. That's where you where.



When I trained LT's WT back in the 80's we thought of YGKYM as a training stance as well as a component of all the stances and steps, since as you turn and step you are constantly moving through YGKYM. In the WT branch footwork you also use adduction constantly, standing, turning and especially when stepping forward. But we never stood statically in YGKYM when sparring. The moment a person advanced into our range, we would surge forward to attack. 

In about '83 in a seminar in San Antonio, I remember Leung Ting demonstrating how to use the YGKYM to "ride the goat", straddling a fallen opponent and pinning him between your knees in a sort of "mount" as you pummeled him with chain punches. By turning in this position, the knees also came viciously into play.

However, it was much later that I learned of the way to "sucker" and draw your opponent into range with YGKYM... that came from Emin when he first visited from Germany. I also like the point he made about how in YGKYM, you don't extend anything forward to make an easy target for your opponent to hit with a kick, leg-sweep, or weapon. Escrima training really reinforces that lesson. Ouch!

Still, for me, YGKYM is both a training exercise and a starting point more than a fighting stance. I don't actually use it much when sparring. I prefer the advancing step position. This may be something of a _personal_ preference though, since I suffer from the effects of an old injury which partially crippled one of my ankles. But hey, you gotta use what works.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 5, 2009)

> But the question of basic stance not being readilly useable in a surprise attack or from standing regularly really made me think, and make a little video.
> Sifu has us stand normally and shift into basic stance, sometimes pushing us to where we have to step into basic quickly. It becomes very natural, we do this with our hands down too.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yea I reread my post and what I said about the stance sounds kind of stupid in WC context-you prooved that in your video! What I meant was more along the lines: your drunk and you bump in to a drunk guy and one sec your talking the other hes throwing haymakers. You don't go in your long TKD stance at the exactly the right angle and put your guard up Neo matrix style in the mean time and intercepting the punch gracefuly from that position. The real pluses I wanted to point out in a natural relaxed stance was; you don't have to prepare, you don't give the impression to the opponent that your prepraing, expecting the punch or going to react to it and your maybe a bit more mobile in the sense of quick corrections and sidesteps. 

I also liked the video Paulos posted a lot as it demonstrates that in a way. In the sense that if a guy comes that is drunk or something that has a problem with you and you react with agression hes going to fight you in most cases(unless you scare him with your badass atitude or big muscles which I don't have ).. If you just let the guy know that you don't want any trouble but you will defend your self(verbaly or with gestures such as shown in the vid) it is very likely(and happened a LOT to me, even against bigger guys or when there were 2 and I alone) that they will not want to fight. You don't give them any resistance, you deflect the agression keeping the forward pressure if I can get a bit philosophical  Which is actualy WC. And I feel thats as important/useful in self defence/or even more maybe than a Bong Sao or a Tan sao in my opinion!



> My first thought when reading the hand forward comment was Geoff Thompson's The Fence. It is common practice among RBSD people.


 
Very important info! Great vid! And indeed you don't want to be on the ground with multiple attackers. Which is motly the case. If only one guy is bothering you and wants to fight you and all your interested in is self defence then hell, you can walk or run away if it doesn't kill your ego.



> Where I study we consider the YGKYM a training stance, however we don't really have a set fighting stance. We train to fight from where we're standing, closest tool, closest attacking weapon. Move to the outside (if you can) offset the opponent's center line, etc.
> 
> So, if you happen to be facing someone square and you fall into your YGKYM, it isn't necessarily wrong. That's where you where.


 
Thats basicly what I was thought too.



> At a very high level in Wing Chun the stance can be a mental thing as well , by that I mean you think you are in your stance therefore you are , even if you are not , if you get my meaning .
> 
> I remember someone asked Sigung Tsui about this once and he said that he can be in his stance even if he is swimming .
> 
> ...


 
If I get what your saying, your saying what I was saying too. That structure power in the sense of straight back, curled pelvis, push off/in the ground you can do even without adduction. It does affect your stability tho becouse of the lack of rootedness(is that a word?). And thinking about it, in the videos of Tsui heung Ting where he demonstrates structure I don't think I've seen him use Ygkym a lot if even he did. And he basicly does that too in the video with the scale too.



> Still, for me, YGKYM is both a training exercise and a starting point more than a fighting stance. I don't actually use it much when sparring. I prefer the advancing step position. This may be something of a _personal_ preference though, since I suffer from the effects of an old injury which partially crippled one of my ankles. But hey, you gotta use what works.


 
Yea I know what your saying. In actual sparring I notice that advancing stance work better for me cuz your weight is more back and thus your kick is more ready too kick. Important for bridging, intercepting, stop kicking during sparing. From Ygkym I'm to slow with kicks to be efficient in sparring..

Hey Geezer, do you know if "street defence" is a WT thing or an Ebmas thing?


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## geezer (Jan 5, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1098990 said:
			
		

> Hey Geezer, do you know if "street defence" is a WT thing or an Ebmas thing?


 
Sorry, I really don't know. Funny thing, when I dropped out of WT, Emin _was_ WT in the US. When I came back to training in 2007, EBMAS had separated from Leung Ting's WT. So It's all the same art to me. _Now_ in the US, there's Emin's group, Leung Ting's group and Jeff Webb's NWTO group. In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Why cant we all just get along?"

Now to get back on topic, I like the fact that the YGKYM can be disguised as an ordinary, nonconfrontational posture, that the opponent will tend to come towards you, that you can turn to either side, or _spring forward_ _powerfully_ from this position. But once you spring forward, you are in the advancing step position. Like you, I find this ideal for kicking, pursuing, and finally for wedging through an opponent's stance and unbalancing him. I would only go back into YGKYM if I had to turn to dissolve superior force.

On the other hand, I suppose you could say that all the stances are really linked manifestations of a common concept, ...of a single flow. At least that's what it looks like to me when I watch someone really good.


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## mook jong man (Jan 5, 2009)

We are taught to surge forward as well when the opponent attacks , but we always square up our feet when we stop . A bit like you are walking on rails , or as I remember one instructor telling a new student who couldn't quite grasp it , he said just walk like Groucho Marx .

 Actually I tell a lie , there was one instance where we used advanced stance as you call it , and that is if we are attacking somebody in a side on stance , we can step in and place our advanced leg inside their shin , so we have shin to shin contact locking against their ankle with our pidgeon toed foot . 

We then would bend our knee and put weight on it , this would effect a leg lock on the opponents leg which could be used to break the leg or just force him down to the ground .

 The nifty thing about it is if he resists the leg lock you just pivot into his knee which effects the lock in a different  direction . This would typically be coupled with a pak sau and punch to the face as no one is going to just stand their and let you apply a leg lock by itself.

 Sorry its a bit off topic but I just remembered it and thought it to be a good use of the advanced stance as you call it.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 5, 2009)

The Two Stances:
1.Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma(YGKYM)
2.Forward Bracing Stance(Side Stance) or advancing stance


Well as for stance. In fighting or sparring you want to switch from side to side and from Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma to side stance. Of what you call advancing stance. I call it forward bracing stance.

In either case. I think the Side stance is a good ready stance if your sparring. Also depending on where your legs are at...your more than likely going to step forward into a side stance. 


Typically I find it easier to throw multiple kicks with different feet on YGKYM. But the Side Stance is great for using the back leg for kicks for added power. 

YGKYM gives you more two handed techinques range and mobility. It makes it easier to throw multiple elbow strikes on both sides. But the benefit of the Side Stance is move your center line away from your opponent slightly to where your sholder becomes your center line. The arm that is already forward can generate more reach and distance than if you had both arms forward. Also when you side kick from a side stance posistion you have more reach.

In Theory I try to actually toggle or switch from each posistion depending on the fight. If I am inside and the opponent is cornered or can not move backwards or won't. I can now turn to YGKYM and attack continously. If he is pressuring me I can turn to side stance. 

There are other techniques I found better perform in the various stances. But I will save it for another time.


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## qwksilver61 (Jan 6, 2009)

Both...


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 7, 2009)

> On the other hand, I suppose you could say that all the stances are really linked manifestations of a common concept, ...of a single flow. At least that's what it looks like to me when I watch someone really good.


 
I agree. Thats why in my opinion SLT doesnt bother with anything else than Ygkym stance/footwork/kick wise(all the same thing in a way). SLT in my opinion being a form in which there are many little ideas/all the moves of WC in it's basic concepts/neutral postions/basic form.

Hey Geezer, knowing that you have experinece in both Ebmas and WT, what diffrences you *did* notice? Are there any? Did Emin add something like Lat sao or leg chi sao, i don't know.. Please excuse my ignorance but I don't have any experience in LTs WT. I know Emin added Escrima, right?

One thing I would like to add about the street defence program/thing is that it also helps in the aftermath of the fight (when the ambulance an the police come and you have to deal with the law ) as if your in public and your engaged by a drunk guy and you go all:"Stop, I have a black belt in XXXXX and I can hurt you" thats what the potential witneses will see too and if you end up hurting the guy that could come back and bite you in the ***. At least in country. Also in a club, laud pub if somebody bothers you and you kick the **** out of him(even in self defence) mostly what people will see is you beating up the guy. 

Now if you follow that "hey stop i don't want any trouble" attitude while still of course defending your self if need be people will more likely notice that you hurt/maimed/even worse the guy in selfdefence.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 7, 2009)

I totally agree. you must play the victim. Don't egg the guy on. Make him totally commit...Oh yea, Play the punk role. Act as if your afraid he is going to really hurt you. But at the same time take the threat seriously. Because the drunk guy could train or practice a MA too. You don't know. Just because he is drunk and wants to fight doesn't mean he is not a skilled Martial Artist too. But in Either case play it down. Try to advoid the confortation. Try to attract witnesses so people can see your afraid of the guy. If the guy runs up on you an grabs you or takes a swing light into him non-stop. Keep hitting his nose make it bleed. Hit is eyes so he can't see the next fist coming. Make your hits count. Chain punch alternate with power blows to head. Low kicks simutanously to his structure. If he sticks his arm hit that too. If he sticks his leg out or kicks kick his leg. Kick is supporting leg if he stands with one leg forward. Drop Him to ground if you. If can sweep or drop him back off. Tell the guy the fight is done  please leave me alone. Asked others for help please help me. This guy is trying to hurt me. If the Guy still wants to fight. Give him more of same. Be a hard target. Maybe stick and move until he gets in Chi Sau range. Then lighting his face. Kick fire from his stomach and groin. 

Great, I love it...



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1100056 said:
			
		

> I agree. Thats why in my opinion SLT doesnt bother with anything else than Ygkym stance/footwork/kick wise(all the same thing in a way). SLT in my opinion being a form in which there are many little ideas/all the moves of WC in it's basic concepts/neutral postions/basic form.
> 
> Hey Geezer, knowing that you have experinece in both Ebmas and WT, what diffrences you *did* notice? Are there any? Did Emin add something like Lat sao or leg chi sao, i don't know.. Please excuse my ignorance but I don't have any experience in LTs WT. I know Emin added Escrima, right?
> 
> ...


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