# Takedowns in Jow Ga Kung Fu



## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2015)

A lot of times people think that there is no grappling in Kung Fu so I just wanted to share my Sifu's  short post from his blog.

"Authentic Kung Fu should contain all aspects of open hand combat; striking, kicking, wrestling and joint locks"

You can read the blog here. There is a video in the blog that shows some our techniques.
Take Downs in Kung Fu Blog

There are about 5 or 6 takedowns. Shown.

The video in the blog (1:14) shows the real world application of the technique shown here at the 2:12 mark in this demo video below. The technique is the same, but the stances aren't. I'm not sure if the technique would work the way it's shown in the demo video. But it definitely works as shown in the blog.





Let me know if you have questions about using your kung fu to defend against take downs, or you can ask my Sifu directly on the blog.  I don't mind sharing how I go about it since it may help to understand how it might apply to your fighting system.


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## Star Dragon (Oct 21, 2015)

Right. Many Chinese styles have techniques from Shuai Jiao (wrestling) and Chin Na (joint locking) in them. Authors which wrote about and demonstrated Kung Fu's grappling side extensively include Jwing Ming Yang and Tim Cartnell.

Similarly, Karate (especially in its original Okinawan form) has plenty of throwing and joint locking techniques, even though many people associate Karate exclusively with ballistic strikes.


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## clfsean (Oct 21, 2015)

All TCMAs have Shuai, Da, Ti, Na ... All. It depends on how much one is emphasized over the other. None is better than the other & none are worse than the other. It depends on the focus.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 21, 2015)

clfsean said:


> All TCMAs have Shuai, Da, Ti, Na ... All. It depends on how much one is emphasized over the other. None is better than the other & none are worse than the other. It depends on the focus.


 Hopefully more schools are placing more focus on it with all of these grabby people out there.


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## clfsean (Oct 21, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Hopefully more schools are placing more focus on it with all of these grabby people out there.



Well that's the rub. It depends on the school & what they have & if it was passed on. If a teacher wasn't big on the grabbing but preferred hitting, you see where the emphasis is. 

Not every school works all four or in some cases more than just one. It doesn't change what they do as CMA, it just focuses their direction is all & shouldn't ever cause a discounting of what they do.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 21, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Well that's the rub. It depends on the school & what they have & if it was passed on. If a teacher wasn't big on the grabbing but preferred hitting, you see where the emphasis is.
> 
> Not every school works all four or in some cases more than just one. It doesn't change what they do as CMA, it just focuses their direction is all & shouldn't ever cause a discounting of what they do.


Oh definitely it doesn't discount what they do.  It's just that so many people are doing MMA and BJJ these days, that some people may be curious about grappling techniques within their own system. Sharing information about other methods and techniques can often shed light on our own systems.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 21, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh definitely it doesn't discount what they do.  It's just that so many people are doing MMA and BJJ these days, that some people may be curious about grappling techniques within their own system. Sharing information about other methods and techniques can often shed light on our own systems.


Personally, I would recommend anyone with curiosity about MMA or BJJ to just go to a school that teaches that, and give it a whirl.

I think it's important for everyone to simply be honest with yourself and others, about what you do and do not do, where your skills are and are not, especially those who teach.  If grappling is not where you have training and skills or personal interest, then be honest about it and don't try to teach it.  Focus your teaching on the skills that you do have, the skills that you can pass along to a student.   And don't feel like you need to apologize for it, if they might have an interest in something you don't know or have no interest in yourself.  If a student chooses to pursue that other thing, be ok with it.  Everyone needs to find what is right for them.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 21, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Personally, I would recommend anyone with curiosity about MMA or BJJ to just go to a school that teaches that, and give it a whirl.
> 
> I think it's important for everyone to simply be honest with yourself and others, about what you do and do not do, where your skills are and are not, especially those who teach.  If grappling is not where you have training and skills or personal interest, then be honest about it and don't try to teach it.  Focus your teaching on the skills that you do have, the skills that you can pass along to a student.   And don't feel like you need to apologize for it, if they might have an interest in something you don't know or have no interest in yourself.  If a student chooses to pursue that other thing, be ok with it.  Everyone needs to find what is right for them.


The problem with this is that if I do Bjj then I'm not learning how to use the grappling techniques that are actually in my fighting system.  My goal is to learn how to use kung fu grappling and I can't reach that by taking bjj.  It's nothing against bjj. It's just me learning how to use my kung fu better and how to apply it against  other fighting systems.


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## clfsean (Oct 21, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> The problem with this is that if I do Bjj then I'm not learning how to use the grappling techniques that are actually in my fighting system.  My goal is to learn how to use kung fu grappling and I can't reach that by taking bjj.  It's nothing against bjj. It's just me learning how to use my kung fu better and how to apply it against  other fighting systems.



Sometimes if you don't see a thing, there's a reason.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 21, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> The problem with this is that if I do Bjj then I'm not learning how to use the grappling techniques that are actually in my fighting system.  My goal is to learn how to use kung fu grappling and I can't reach that by taking bjj.  It's nothing against bjj. It's just me learning how to use my kung fu better and how to apply it against  other fighting systems.


Fair enough.  What I'm really getting at is, don't go down that silly rabbit hole of, everything we do is determined by the "threat" of BJJ and MMA.  That's nonsense.

By all means, explore every aspect of your chosen system that you find yourself interested in.  Do it to better your training, do it because you are interested in it.  Don't do it because you think MMA and BJJ tells you that you must.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 21, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Fair enough.  What I'm really getting at is, don't go down that silly rabbit hole of, everything we do is determined by the "threat" of BJJ and MMA.  That's nonsense.
> 
> By all means, explore every aspect of your chosen system that you find yourself interested in.  Do it to better your training, do it because you are interested in it.  Don't do it because you think MMA and BJJ tells you that you must.


When I train it's for the better understanding of the fighting system that I train in. MMA and BJJ are just fighting systems that allow me to look at the application of my techniques in a different light.  MMA because those guys usually work off multiple fighting systems.  BJJ because it's a strong grappling system.  I take the same approach with TKD and Muay Tai with their great kicking abilities, Boxing with their fast footwork and head movement.  The only reason you don't hear me talking about those systems is because this post is about Grappling.

There are kung fu practitioners who do stances all day long and have not realized how those same stances can be used to help defend against various grappling attempts.  The low stances actually open up additional opportunities for grappling and striking.  It also moves the waist and hips deeper into the guard.  Tall fighting stances limits the distance a person is able to retreat, lower stances increase the distance a person is able to retreat. Without strong legs low stances can't be held for long periods of time and it reduces the mobility.  Bow stances and cross stances can be used in executing throws. Even with all of that information that I just touched on, there are practitioners who think that stance training is only good for making the legs strong and that the low stances aren't really used in actual fighting or sparring.  This information may be useful to someone who does kung fu; and may give them a different perspective on how to use their kung fu stances in sparring.  Those who haven't done fighting or sparring from a low stance isn't going to pick many of these things up unless someone tells them or unless they experience it for themselves.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 21, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Sometimes if you don't see a thing, there's a reason.


Not sure what you mean here


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## Flying Crane (Oct 21, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> When I train it's for the better understanding of the fighting system that I train in. MMA and BJJ are just fighting systems that allow me to look at the application of my techniques in a different light.  MMA because those guys usually work off multiple fighting systems.  BJJ because it's a strong grappling system.  I take the same approach with TKD and Muay Tai with their great kicking abilities, Boxing with their fast footwork and head movement.  The only reason you don't hear me talking about those systems is because this post is about Grappling.
> 
> There are kung fu practitioners who do stances all day long and have not realized how those same stances can be used to help defend against various grappling attempts.  The low stances actually open up additional opportunities for grappling and striking.  It also moves the waist and hips deeper into the guard.  Tall fighting stances limits the distance a person is able to retreat, lower stances increase the distance a person is able to retreat. Without strong legs low stances can't be held for long periods of time and it reduces the mobility.  Bow stances and cross stances can be used in executing throws. Even with all of that information that I just touched on, there are practitioners who think that stance training is only good for making the legs strong and that the low stances aren't really used in actual fighting or sparring.  This information may be useful to someone who does kung fu; and may give them a different perspective on how to use their kung fu stances in sparring.  Those who haven't done fighting or sparring from a low stance isn't going to pick many of these things up unless someone tells them or unless they experience it for themselves.


And again, if you are interested in it, for whatever reason, then do it.  You don't need to justify it to me or to anyone else.  I only say, don't think you MUST do something just because BJJ or MMA tells you it is so.


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## Steve (Oct 21, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> And again, if you are interested in it, for whatever reason, then do it.  You don't need to justify it to me or to anyone else.  I only say, don't think you MUST do something just because BJJ or MMA tells you it is so.


I agree in spirit, but don't believe bjj is telling anyone in this thread to do anything in particular.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 22, 2015)

Steve said:


> I agree in spirit, but don't believe bjj is telling anyone in this thread to do anything in particular.


I actually agree with you, but there are people who I think do believe it does.  "BJJ and MMA are very popular right now, therefor I need to change my training to XYZ in response to the threat that they represent".  

I just don't live my life that way.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 22, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I actually agree with you, but there are people who I think do believe it does.  "BJJ and MMA are very popular right now, therefor I need to change my training to XYZ in response to the threat that they represent".
> 
> I just don't live my life that way.


 Tackling and throwing people on the ground has always been around it's nothing new.  If a person is taking a CMA then there's a high chance that there are grappling techniques in the forms that are done.  So you wouldn't be changing your training, instead you'll be gaining a better understanding of you are already doing in the context of grappling. Chin Na (Qinna) is a grappling system that is naturally a part of kung fu. Many Kung Fu practitioners are always practicing or discussing rooted stances in the schools.  The "rooting" of a stance also plays a big important part in preventing someone from throwing you. So you aren't changing your training, you are getting a better understanding of things that you are already doing.

In what context do you practice your stances? Do you only practice your stances in the context of building stronger legs? Or do you only practice your stances in the context of punching and kicking? Do you practice your stances in the context of grappling?

Having a better understanding of what you already do and have in your fighting system does not mean you are chaining your training.  At the most it will mean understanding what you do in the context of what is being used against you. 

Watch the legs and the stances the guy below. You'll see him use the same stances we all practice but they are done in the context of grappling.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 22, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Tackling and throwing people on the ground has always been around it's nothing new.  If a person is taking a CMA then there's a high chance that there are grappling techniques in the forms that are done.  So you wouldn't be changing your training, instead you'll be gaining a better understanding of you are already doing in the context of grappling. Chin Na (Qinna) is a grappling system that is naturally a part of kung fu. Many Kung Fu practitioners are always practicing or discussing rooted stances in the schools.  The "rooting" of a stance also plays a big important part in preventing someone from throwing you. So you aren't changing your training, you are getting a better understanding of things that you are already doing.
> 
> In what context do you practice your stances? Do you only practice your stances in the context of building stronger legs? Or do you only practice your stances in the context of punching and kicking? Do you practice your stances in the context of grappling?
> 
> ...


Ohmygawdman!  No kidding!!!!  Stop preaching to me, this is nothing new and I haven't disagreed with you


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## clfsean (Oct 22, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Ohmygawdman!  No kidding!!!!  Stop preaching to me, this is nothing new and I haven't disagreed with you



True story ...


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 22, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Ohmygawdman!  No kidding!!!!  Stop preaching to me, this is nothing new and I haven't disagreed with you


I was actually adding to what you stated. I'll try to make it clearer next time.  I wrote the comment for others who may think that they have to change their training just be able to deal with grappling, or for those who think that grappling isn't part of their system (which in some cases may be true for some non CMAs). When I used the word "you" it was out of habit of using "you" in a general sense and not directly addressed to you specifically.  So I apologize for the confusion I created.



Flying Crane said:


> "BJJ and MMA are very popular right now, therefor I need to change my training to XYZ in response to the threat that they represent".


This part of your statement is what I was adding to.  I see this happening in schools that teach karate and hapkido where, they actually teach "MMA and BJJ" as part of their Karate or Hapkido curriculum. Granted that it's was probably done for business purposes, there was no need to go that route if their school actually has grappling techniques in it.  They change their training because of the popularity of MMA and BJJ. The moment they start practicing MMA and BJJ techniques is the exact moment they stop doing Hapkido.
This is what I thought of  when I read your comment about changing training.  MMA – Mixed Martial Arts | Choe's HapKiDo


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2015)

Kickin


JowGaWolf said:


> A lot of times people think that there is no grappling in Kung Fu so I just wanted to share my Sifu's  short post from his blog.
> 
> "Authentic Kung Fu should contain all aspects of open hand combat; striking, kicking, wrestling and joint locks"



Kicking/punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao.... all Chinese martial arts styles have all 3 to varying degrees..... end of story....others don't want to believe that...I'm ok with that...it is to my advantage.


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## Steve (Oct 22, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> I actually agree with you, but there are people who I think do believe it does.  "BJJ and MMA are very popular right now, therefor I need to change my training to XYZ in response to the threat that they represent".
> 
> I just don't live my life that way.


Lots of insecurity out there, I agree.  And ultimately, if you are caught up in reacting to what everyone else is doing, you're probably aren't training for constructive reasons in the first place.  I mean, really, outside of LEO or other professional interests, the likelihood that any of us will use any of these skills outside of the gym is very, very small.  Best, IMO, to just train what interests you and let others do the same.


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## Steve (Oct 22, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Kickin
> 
> 
> Kicking/punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao.... all Chinese martial arts styles have all 3 to varying degrees..... end of story....others don't want to believe that...I'm ok with that...it is to my advantage.


Who are these "others" you speak of?  Are these "others" guys you expect to fight?  If not, what advantage do you have if these "others" misunderstand whether grappling is in CMA?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 22, 2015)

This is a picture from one of our classes where we were focusing on stances.  We took turns shooting / tackling at the waist in various types of stances. The rules to this were that we couldn't use our hands to defend push the other person off or to turn them.  The experience gain was a better understanding of what happens mentally from an attacker's perspective and what happens from the defender's perspective.  We had no problem with going for the waist when the person had a high stance. It was easy to get under the arms and to the waist.  But when the person dropped into a lower stance it actually caused us to hesitate with the shoot.  This is something that we all felt as we were going through this exercise.

In the picture my waist is normally at the same height as my elbows. When I'm in a high stance there is not much that is getting in the way of someone who wants to tackle me at the waist.  The lower stance moves my waist behind my guard.  My foot appears to be an easy target but I can strike or press down anything that comes to that level. I can also grapple from this stance. A higher stance won't allow me to punch below my knees but a low stance allows it.

Wrestlers utilize a similar low stance with the exception that their stance isn't good for punching or defending a punch (which makes sense because it's wrestling). You can see how the waist is deep within the guard and any attempted grabs at the leg below the knew can be pushed down.  





I took a look at a wide range of fighting systems that were heavy in grappling and they all had one thing in common, they all used stances that put their waist be hind their guard.  It also appeared that if they wanted high mobility they would be in a stance that is similar to what the wrestlers in the pictures are in.  For Judo and Mongolian wrestling the stances were higher and the movements were not as big or fast until an attack was attempted. They also used lower stances as well.  I also paid attention to the movement while in stances and the wider stance was the one that really was able to move.  Fencing isn't a grappling system but they are good with their footwork agility and use a variation of the horse stance and bow stance.

These were just a few things that made me look deeper into my stance training. Now when I do my stance training I don't just stand there trying to see how long I can hold a stance.  I still do that exercises but I also have new stance training exercises based on the context for the offense or defense that the stance is being used in.  Recently I've been drilling really hard to increase my the mobility of my horse stance.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 22, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was actually adding to what you stated. I'll try to make it clearer next time.  I wrote the comment for others who may think that they have to change their training just be able to deal with grappling, or for those who think that grappling isn't part of their system (which in some cases may be true for some non CMAs). When I used the word "you" it was out of habit of using "you" in a general sense and not directly addressed to you specifically.  So I apologize for the confusion I created.
> 
> 
> This part of your statement is what I was adding to.  I see this happening in schools that teach karate and hapkido where, they actually teach "MMA and BJJ" as part of their Karate or Hapkido curriculum. Granted that it's was probably done for business purposes, there was no need to go that route if their school actually has grappling techniques in it.  They change their training because of the popularity of MMA and BJJ. The moment they start practicing MMA and BJJ techniques is the exact moment they stop doing Hapkido.
> This is what I thought of  when I read your comment about changing training.  MMA – Mixed Martial Arts | Choe's HapKiDo


Gotcha,thanks, I appreciate it.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2015)

Steve said:


> Who are these "others" you speak of?  Are these "others" guys you expect to fight?  If not, what advantage do you have if these "others" misunderstand whether grappling is in CMA?



Steve....my take on your post is it is an attempt to inflame..... if I misunderstand I apologize... but it seems pretty easy to figure out what I am saying based on the post... have a nice day


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## Steve (Oct 22, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Steve....my take on your post is it is an attempt to inflame..... if I misunderstand I apologize... but it seems pretty easy to figure out what I am saying based on the post... have a nice day


Not trying to inflame.   Truly have no clue why you guys are arguing with each other about what bjj or MMA guys are supposedly saying when literally no one around here is saying those things.   I am legitimately confused about who these others are whom you assert are saying that there is no grappling in cma.  It may be easy to figure out your post for most, but for me I don't get it.  




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 22, 2015)

Steve said:


> Not trying to inflame.   Truly have no clue why you guys are arguing with each other about what bjj or MMA guys are supposedly saying when literally no one around here is saying those things.   I am legitimately confused about who these others are whom you assert are saying that there is no grappling in cma.  It may be easy to figure out your post for most, but for me I don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Look at any style bashing post on MT today, and there are a lot to choose from. BJJ, MMA all superior to all other arts, ..... because they have grappling and others do not... when in fact they do....a few talking about those other arts the bash like they are experts at them when they have never trained them at all... If you haven't see them, I am surprised, and I suggest you take another look around, you may need to go back and reread a few.....No I will not point you to any...look if you really want to understand.... MT tends to irritate me more these days that I think it is worth so I will not go back and review the irritants so I can point them out to you...sorry..... that is why I tend to stay within CMA and non-serious areas of MT these days..... I'm done with this....sorry you don't get it...... I shall say no more on this


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 22, 2015)

I would like to hear any tips, advice or things that any of you may know or have discovered about your CMA .


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 23, 2015)

Every form in Taijiquan and Xingyiquan has more than one application and can be used in more than one situation

All of the forms of Xingyiquan Wuxingquan should be practiced using opposite leg and fist, at angles and straight.

Hengquan, of xingyiquan can be a punch to the kidneys, strike under the arm or one hell of a take down

The low kick you see in many Xingyi Wuxingquan forms is very similar to a JKD punch, it is more of an arc. And it is generally to the knee

Stand up fighting in XIngyiquan (yes it can do that) is also rather similar to JKD, just it is a back weighted stance and not a front weighted stance


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hengquan, of xingyiquan can be a punch to the kidneys, strike under the arm or one hell of a take down


 I took a look at it and I didn't see the take down in it.  I'll have to keep looking.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 23, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I took a look at it and I didn't see the take down in it.  I'll have to keep looking.



Like I said, you have to also train opposite arm and leg too, the style is not as rigid as many believe. There are at least 3 different ways I know that are all called Hengquan, one of those is a take down and that one is similar to taijiquan yě mǎ fēn zōng (part wild horses mane), just xingyiquan is a bit more aggressive in its approach


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## Steve (Oct 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Look at any style bashing post on MT today, and there are a lot to choose from. BJJ, MMA all superior to all other arts, ..... because they have grappling and others do not... when in fact they do....a few talking about those other arts the bash like they are experts at them when they have never trained them at all... If you haven't see them, I am surprised, and I suggest you take another look around, you may need to go back and reread a few.....No I will not point you to any...look if you really want to understand.... MT tends to irritate me more these days that I think it is worth so I will not go back and review the irritants so I can point them out to you...sorry..... that is why I tend to stay within CMA and non-serious areas of MT these days..... I'm done with this....sorry you don't get it...... I shall say no more on this


I get it and don't expect you to dredge it up.  I understand that there are a lot of misconceptions around here about what people train, how they train and why they train, and I wasn't trying to stir the pot.  I was just trying to suggest that misconceptions are going both directions.  I do think that you have a lot of good reasons to believe as you do, but don't think it's not quite as cut and dry as you suggest.  It's all good.  Thanks for the response.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 23, 2015)

Steve said:


> I get it and don't expect you to dredge it up.  I understand that there are a lot of misconceptions around here about what people train, how they train and why they train, and I wasn't trying to stir the pot.  I was just trying to suggest that misconceptions are going both directions.  I do think that you have a lot of good reasons to believe as you do, but don't think it's not quite as cut and dry as you suggest.  It's all good.  Thanks for the response.



never mind and just forget I said anything at all


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hengquan, one of those is a take down and that one is similar to taijiquan yě mǎ fēn zōng (part wild horses mane), just xingyiquan is a bit more aggressive in its approach


  thanks for the reference. The taijiquan reference helps, now I know what I should be focusing on when I look again.  It's one of those moves that doesn't look like much until it's shown in application.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> My goal is to learn how to use kung fu grappling and I can't reach that by taking bjj.  It's nothing against bjj. It's just me learning how to use my kung fu better and how to apply it against  other fighting systems.


If you extract some grappling skill out of your CMA system, you may find out that since the information is not complete, it's very difficult to use those information as base and build your grappling skill on top of it. The grappling skill is much more than just a "shoot to the leg". For example,

How to

- apply the same throw from different angles?
- apply the same throw from different set up?
- counter a throw?
- change one throw into another?
- use kick, punch to set up your throw?
- develop your grip fighting skill?
- obtain a clinch ASAP?
- break away from a clinch?
- ...

You may just touch the skin of the grappling art this way. But you will never be able to get deeper into your grappling skill development. You may also develop some false confidence and think you can deal with Judo black belt or state level wrestlers.

Many years ago, a CMA school extracted some grappling skill out of their CMA system. That school sent 15 students to compete in one national level Shuai Chiao tournament. All 15 students lose. Since then that school has never sent any student to the grappling tournament. If you don't wrestle 15 rounds daily, it will be very difficult for your wrestling skill to work on the mat.

If you want to be a wrestler, you just have to train as a wrestler. You will also need a full knowledge to build your skill on. IMO, partial knowledge is just not enough.


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## Star Dragon (Oct 25, 2015)

I see no problem in taking up a grappling art and adapting it to one's base system.


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