# Newbies Teachin Newbies



## ninhito (Mar 24, 2005)

okay question do you think its okay for a person who hasnt reached their fifth dan yet to be teaching anyone else ninjutsu...


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## Cryozombie (Mar 24, 2005)

ninhito said:
			
		

> okay question do you think its okay for a person who hasnt reached their fifth dan yet to be teaching anyone else ninjutsu...


My Opinion?

Yes, as long as they do so under the guidance and tutalage of a qualified shidoshi.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 24, 2005)

That's odd, you don't often hear people without Bujinkan training experience call people between first and fifth dan newbies...but even at fifth dan you probably wouldn't have been taught very much ninjutsu...


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## Cryozombie (Mar 25, 2005)

I think we understand what he meant, no need to argue semantics.


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## Drac (Mar 25, 2005)

ninhito said:
			
		

> okay question do you think its okay for a person who hasnt reached their fifth dan yet to be teaching anyone else ninjutsu...


My opinion (and I know nothing about your discipline or ranking system) is yes.Some people are just natural teachers..If Shidoshi has no problem with them teaching then neither should anyone...


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## davidg553 (Mar 25, 2005)

ninhito said:
			
		

> okay question do you think its okay for a person who hasnt reached their fifth dan yet to be teaching anyone else ninjutsu...


 Then again, there are alot of fifth dan out there who shouldn't be teaching anyone including themselves.  Fifth dan is not the end all in terms of skill or teaching ability.


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## Don Roley (Mar 26, 2005)

ninhito said:
			
		

> okay question do you think its okay for a person who hasnt reached their fifth dan yet to be teaching anyone else ninjutsu...



If they are a member of the shidoshikai and meet with a full instructor on a regular basis, then they are probably ok. If they merely get their first dan and decide they don't need to stinking teachers, there probably will be problems. My first Bujinkan instructor was of the later and I still have got bad habits from what he taught me.


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## arnisador (Mar 26, 2005)

One must do some teaching in order to learn how to teach.


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## firegarden (Mar 27, 2005)

Related to this subject, does anyone here know anything about Brent Earlewine
Yondan, Shidoshi-Ho of Pittsburg?  Namely what Shidoshi is he under the authority of and what is that Shidoshi's experience?

The reason I ask, is that although I am commited to training in another art (Kempo), I have read several of Dr. Hatsumi's books and find him to be very intriguing and inspiring, and I am looking to get a small taste of the Bujinkan system.  The guy mentioned above has some very reasonably priced DVD's on Ebay (Bujinkan Essentials, Staff Weapons, 2-disc Kusari Fundu).  He also sells what appears to be most of the DVD catalog of Dr. Hatsumi, but the Hatsumi videos are 5X more expensive.  

Allow me to bypass the obvious argument that could come up by saying that I am sure that the Hatsumi videos are worth more to the serious student than 5X the price of the Pittsburg Dojo videos, but I am just a casually interested person interested in getting a small glance into the system.  I may experiment with trying the techniques out, but my purpose is not to train with these videos.

I greatly appreciate any helpful info you all can offer.

-firegarden


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## Shogun (Mar 27, 2005)

Believe it or not, I dont think anyone would recommend Hatsumi's vids for one who is just curious. Jack Hoban's tapes are good. Hatsumi's tapes are pretty advanced, simply because no one else moves like him. They can really only be learnt from if you have been practicing Bujinkan Budo for a while.



KE


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## firegarden (Mar 27, 2005)

Shogun, that makes sense to me, although training is not my purpose at this time, I am just curious, as you said, I would think that while the moves of the Soke are undoubtedly very subtle, he is the Soke, so at least I can be guaranteed of seeing authentic technique, even if it is beyond my untrained eye to observe properly.

I am curious, being that you are in Washington, do you know of any good Bujinkan Dojos where I might sit in and observe in Oregon or Southern Washington? That might be knid of interesting as well. I have serached on winjutsu for Dojo's in Oregon, and was a little unsure of the results, I don't want to drive 3 hours to Bend to observe an hour of training that might be a joke, know what I mean? 

-firegarden

I thought I should throw in here that in no way am I suggesting that the dojo in Bend is a joke, I just don't know...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 27, 2005)

I usually recommend the Yarijutsu and What is Martial Arts videos for people who'd like to see Soke when he's at his coolest.:ultracool


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## Loki (Mar 27, 2005)

No real knowledge in Ninjutsu on my part, my I'd hardly call, say, a 4th dan a newbie. We have 1st dan as a requirement for instruction. Why the need for 5th?

And, as most people said, just as important as knowledge is teaching ability.

~ Loki


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## MisterMike (Mar 27, 2005)

I think the 5th is required to issue rank. You can probably host a training group at 1st if you are under a shidoshi and have permission.


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## firegarden (Mar 27, 2005)

As I understand it, in BBT you must be under the supervison of a Shidoshi (min 5th Dan) to teach, and your title is Shidoshi-Ho (I'm not sure at what rank you are elligible for Shidoshi-Ho), thus the question I posed earlier.


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## arnisador (Mar 27, 2005)

In some styles of karate, a 3rd dan is standard to be an instructor and to be called 'sensei' (or so I understand it).

The dan system dates from only about 120 years ago--is there a traditional way to signify an instructor of ninjutsu (e.g., menkyo)?


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## Kizaru (Mar 27, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> In some styles of karate, a 3rd dan is standard to be an instructor and to be called 'sensei' (or so I understand it)


Hatsumi sensei isn't teaching modern karate; thus it's a little bit different.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> The dan system dates from only about 120 years ago--is there a traditional way to signify an instructor of ninjutsu (e.g., menkyo)?


The kyu/dan system existed in Japan earlier than 120 years ago, and was first used at Buddhist temples to organize a curriculum of instruction. Later it was adopted by the Edo police for organizing a kendo curriculum, and then later was popularized by Kano applying it to Judo. Today, the kyu/dan system is used for everything from giving licenses in modern kendo or tea ceremony to assesing proficiency in languages such as English and Chinese.

As far as a traditional way of signifying an "instructor" like we have today, my research hasn't really turned anything up. What I have found though, is that various menkyo licenses (shoden, chuden, okuden, gokui, menkyo kaiden) were given as certification of training; paintings, tsuba etc made by the teacher were given as "evidence of relationship/status" (which in some cases held more weight than menkyo kaiden) and the teacher giving weapons or tools specific to the ryu to the student meant that the student was "ready".


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## ninhito (Mar 27, 2005)

o and question what is the art of using two swords...? it's part of my arguement...


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## Dale Seago (Mar 27, 2005)

firegarden said:
			
		

> As I understand it, in BBT you must be under the supervison of a Shidoshi (min 5th Dan) to teach, and your title is Shidoshi-Ho (I'm not sure at what rank you are elligible for Shidoshi-Ho), thus the question I posed earlier.



That's correct. You can be a shidoshi-ho, under the auspices of a shidoshi, at 1st through 4th dan. Once you're at 5th dan, you ain't gotta be nobody's -ho no mo'.


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## Don Roley (Mar 28, 2005)

ninhito said:
			
		

> o and question what is the art of using two swords...? it's part of my arguement...



What arguement???? Can you tell us what is going on?


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## saru1968 (Mar 28, 2005)

Hi

My first instuctor back in 1990 started teaching when he was a 7th Kyu, not idea by any means but as his instuctor had stopped teaching it was the only option or the club would fold. He turned out to be a really good teacher and a great bloke.

As Dale said Shidoshi-ho is the teaching licence normally awarded 1st-4th Dan for someone under a Shidoshi.

Now as for newbies teaching...now there is the idea that someone a 7th kyu lets say showing a white belt how to roll, stances at the 7th Kyu level as the 7th Kyu is closer to that grade, bu the skill in teaching in my opinion is not showing the student what you understand but putting it in a way that the student understands..

Having a blackbelt does not equal teacher, its a skill you learn or its something you are or your not..

just a few thoughts


Gary


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## MisterMike (Mar 28, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> The kyu/dan system existed in Japan earlier than 120 years ago, and was first used at Buddhist temples to organize a curriculum of instruction. Later it was adopted by the Edo police for organizing a kendo curriculum, and then later was popularized by Kano applying it to Judo. Today, the kyu/dan system is used for everything from giving licenses in modern kendo or tea ceremony to assesing proficiency in languages such as English and Chinese.



That is very interesting. Do you have any dates/names of the eras and Buddhist sects that used this, and approximately when the Edo police used it as well?

Many thanks,


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## ninhito (Mar 28, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> What arguement???? Can you tell us what is going on?


_I was argueing against a person i know over the right that she was being taught ninjutsu by a person who wasnt any dan rank at all...she believes that she is in the right then i asked her some questions just because i want to look up some other type of weapons training that i might like to get into and thats why i asked her what the art or school of two sword fighting was and she said niten ichiryu, which if im correct means two heavens/skies 1 school so it didnt sound right to me, seeing that most arts/schools that teach a certain way of fighting with weapons or body tell you, kinda, what the point, phylosophy, thought is behind that way of fighting...or their named after their creator. _


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## Dale Seago (Mar 28, 2005)

Niten ichi ryu -- or more properly, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu -- is in fact an actual school of swordsmanship in Japan -- see http://www.koryubooks.com/photos/niten.html


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## safeeagle (Mar 28, 2005)

No not at all. I think you need to wait for your instructor to say it's ok.


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## Kizaru (Mar 28, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> That is very interesting. Do you have any dates/names of the eras and Buddhist sects that used this, and approximately when the Edo police used it as well?


 About a year or so after I moved to Japan, I decided to try doing kendo for a little while. The dojo itself was at a Rinzai sect Buddhist temple (on the east side of Ichikawa City, two stops from Onigoe station) and the kendo teacher was the head abbot. When he was explaining the ranking system used in modern (sport) kendo, he explained to me that the dan/kyu grading system was adopted _when the Edo police began practicing kendo as a sport. _I don't know off the top of my head exactly when that was, I believe it was around the beginning of the Edo period/Tokugawa shogunate, but I don't know for certain. I do know however, that I've seen the same thing written in alot of books, and I'm sure if you asked around or did a little searching on the internet, you could probably find an exact date.

 Best of luck.
 :asian:


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## davidg553 (Mar 29, 2005)

firegarden said:
			
		

> I am curious, being that you are in Washington, do you know of any good Bujinkan Dojos where I might sit in and observe in Oregon or Southern Washington? That might be knid of interesting as well. I have serached on winjutsu for Dojo's in Oregon, and was a little unsure of the results, I don't want to drive 3 hours to Bend to observe an hour of training that might be a joke, know what I mean?
> 
> -firegarden


 White Lion Tenchijin Bujinkan is in Portland.

 Aric Keith is in Vancouver, WA. I don't have his information but I did see him make a post on here.


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## davidg553 (Mar 29, 2005)

saru1968 said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> My first instuctor back in 1990 started teaching when he was a 7th Kyu, not idea by any means but as his instuctor had stopped teaching it was the only option or the club would fold. He turned out to be a really good teacher and a great bloke.
> Gary


  Ed Lomax started teaching as a very low kyuu grade and considering where he is now I think he did ok for himself. My instructor started a training group when he was a lowly whitebelt and he has done ok for himself as well.


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## rutherford (Mar 29, 2005)

davidg553 said:
			
		

> Ed Lomax started teaching as a very low kyuu grade and considering where he is now I think he did ok for himself. My instructor started a training group when he was a lowly whitebelt and he has done ok for himself as well.




My guess is that Ed Lomax, your instructor, and their students all made regular visits to licensed Shidoshi.


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## Kreth (Mar 29, 2005)

saru1968 said:
			
		

> My first instuctor back in 1990 started teaching when he was a 7th Kyu, not idea by any means but as his instuctor had stopped teaching it was the only option or the club would fold. He turned out to be a really good teacher and a great bloke.


I started out in a similar situation. At the time, there were no shidoshi in upstate NY further north than Westchester. My instructor started a training group as a 5th kyu and every other week, he would travel to train under a shidoshi. He was very clear on the fact that he was not a licensed instructor, and the techniques he was showing were subject to change as his understanding of them improved.
I don't see a problem with it as long as the senior student is in fact regularly training under a licensed shidoshi, and does not try to set themselves up as an authority.

Jeff


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## Henso (Mar 29, 2005)

I'd like to start, before I give my opinion, by stating that I am one of the said "newbies" who teaches with authorization from my instructor, Ed "Papa-san" Martin. I am currently a Yondan, and it is my habit to submit members of my training group to Ed, when I think they are ready for testing, and the decision on whether or not to award rank it is based upon his assessment alone. Due to the scarcity of BBT teachers, in some areas, this is the only way to expose interested parties to Hatsumi Sensei's extarordinary legacy.

That having been said, I aware that there is an issue of competancy among some supposed Dan grade practitioners, and that we must all be resolute in guarding against undermining the reputation of the art that we practice. First and foremost, this is the responsibilty of the individual to decline rank that he has not earned, and of the teacher to resist the impulse to reward students for attendance or tenure. 

One of the simplest ways of doing this is to insist upon an ability to demonstrate a set of skills that is uniform for all, and to abide by this absolutely. In addition to the Kamae, Ukemi/taihenjutsu, Sanshin No Kata, Koshi Kihon Sanpo, Torite Goho, and for lack of a more accurate term, various Ningu, I personnly think that a shodan be required to have substantive knowlegde of the nine Ryuha, and the ability to name and demonstrate certain waza from those where the knowledge is publically available.

Lastly, I personally insist upon students demonstrating the ability to use the techniques in unrehearsed street style attacks, as a gauge of their taijutsu. At the end of the day, this is the only meaningful measure of parctitioner's true abilities, and indeed, nobody should be a shodan, if they lack this ability.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 29, 2005)

I think there are already far too many people in the Bujinkan who are waaaaaay to caught up in teaching and running off establishing training groups, rather than bettering themselves.

True, there may be lots of seriously interested potential students living in areas where Bujinkan training is currently unavailable. But ultimately I think we're doing them a disservice if we don't take the time to improve ourselves enough in order to correctly demonstrate Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu the way it deserves.


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## Henso (Mar 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I think there are already far too many people in the Bujinkan who are waaaaaay to caught up in teaching and running off establishing training groups, rather than bettering themselves.


Generally, I would tend to agree, however, I would qualify this by saying that our reaction to the lack of quality in some practitioners, should not result in us proscribing all those below Godan from teaching. The Bujinkan is not unique in having Shodan-Yondan teaching, though we would all benefit from a more rigourous enforcement of standards required to reach these grades.

In addition to this I can personally attest to the fact that teaching others the "basics" compels one to focus on them more, which is extremely beneficial, as it is always tempting to move onto more glamourous techniques. I have found that this has expedited improvements in my taijutsu.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> True, there may be lots of seriously interested potential students living in areas where Bujinkan training is currently unavailable. But ultimately I think we're doing them a disservice if we don't take the time to improve ourselves enough in order to correctly demonstrate Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu the way it deserves.


Again, while I see your point, I would like to point out that anyone between the ranks of Shodan-Yondan, who cannot demonstrate BBT properly, is not. Additionally, anyone legitimately of these ranks has far more knowledge than any novice could possibily digest, and is not so far removed from their lack of experience, not to remember what it was like to not be able to execute basic BBT, which I'm sure all of us will attest is extremely frustrating at first.

Lastly, I would like to point out that had the rule of nobody but Godan and above ever been in place, none of us here would ever have heard of this art, let alone be practicing it. Indeed, when one considers the experience of Hayes, Daniel and a myriad other individuals who popularized this art, almost to a fault, they were teaching before reaching Godan.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 29, 2005)

Henso said:
			
		

> Generally, I would tend to agree, however, I would qualify this by saying that our reaction to the lack of quality in some practitioners, should not result in us proscribing all those below Godan from teaching.


Given the lack of quality assurance in the Bujinkan, I'd rather not take my chances. This applies for people at godan as well.



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> The Bujinkan is not unique in having Shodan-Yondan teaching, though we would all benefit from a more rigourous enforcement of standards required to reach these grades.


We would benefit more from training with lots and lots of different people, IMHO.



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> In addition to this I can personally attest to the fact that teaching others the "basics" compels one to focus on them more, which is extremely beneficial, as it is always tempting to move onto more glamourous techniques.


Up until around september of 2003, I made that distinction as well...



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> Again, while I see your point, I would like to point out that anyone between the ranks of Shodan-Yondan, who cannot demonstrate BBT
> properly, is not.


That would drastically lessen the number of Bujinkan practitioners around the world, of course...



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> Additionally, anyone legitimately of these ranks has far more knowledge than any novice could possibily digest,


And how do you define legitimate? A while ago at another board, a person whose name I'd prefer not to mention, wondered why he as a godan wasn't granted the respect he thought he deserved from someone of a lesser rank. All I have to say is that I see no reason for anyone to respect a person with godan whose punches repeatedly end up with his knee pointing at nine o'clock, while his fist is pointing at twelve o'clock.



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> Lastly, I would like to point out that had the rule of nobody but Godan and above ever been in place, none of us here would ever have heard of this art, let alone be practicing it.


Dunno about that, what rank was Doron when he left Japan?



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> Indeed, when one considers the experience of Hayes, Daniel and a myriad other individuals who popularized this art, almost to a fault, they were teaching before reaching Godan.


And how many of them travel to Japan regularly nowadays?


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## Henso (Mar 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Dunno about that, what rank was Doron when he left Japan?


Just about 100% certain he was a Yondan, and passed the Godan test on a return visit to Japan. I am almost entirely in agreement with you as to the quality assurance issue, but, a reaction that went beyond proper enforcement of traditional standards would be as invidious as the lack of enforcement currently is. Back to the matter of Doron, see the attached link.

http://starbuck.virtualave.net/main/ninpo/godan.htm


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 29, 2005)

Aiight, my bad about Doron. 

Anyhow, at my dojo, apart from our head instructor, we have eight people with dan ranks that when put together add up to about 45. All of them are more than capable of running their own training groups (which two of them, both under godan, pretty much did for a while). Yet they all prefer to stay together and train to improve themselves. That tells me something, at least.
I don't think anyone would claim that a wide availability of quality Bujinkan teachers is undesirable. On the other hand, I'm starting to wonder if all these small training groups aren't in a way doing a disservice to the Bujinkan in the public eye as far as completeness, competence and combat/self defense effectivity is concerned. It's usually in smaller groups that you hear people complaining about not seeing or being taught this or that..."blah blah blah, the Bujinkan has no defense against hooks, shoots and knives, and I never broke a sweat during training or was allowed to do some heavy bag/pad work..."


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## Henso (Mar 29, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I'm starting to wonder if all these small training groups aren't in a way doing a disservice to the Bujinkan in the public eye as far as completeness, competence and combat/self defense effectivity is concerned. It's usually in smaller groups that you hear people complaining about not seeing or being taught this or that..."blah blah blah, the Bujinkan has no defense against hooks, shoots and knives, and I never broke a sweat during training or was allowed to do some heavy bag/pad work..."


I would agree that there is a disservice being done, but, it is not caused by the existence of small training groups. It is caused by teachers who promote students that are not ready, and by students whose ego's cloud their own understanding of their abilities or lack thereof. 

I too have seen people who cannot utilize taijutsu against the most mundane attacks, and yet hold Dan ranking. As I said in a previous comment, whatever they may think their rank is, it is in fact not. These types of practices do mock the efforts of the dedicated and deserving, and I am in agreement with you that something ought to be done about it. That having been said, I can't advocate 1st to 4th Dan being prohibited from having training groups, but, rather that each and every person be held to a high standard akin to what was expected before the art became widely popular, even if this means revoking rank from those who don't deserve it.


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## Kreth (Mar 29, 2005)

Henso said:
			
		

> I would agree that there is a disservice being done, but, it is not caused by the existence of small training groups. It is caused by teachers who promote students that are not ready, and by students whose ego's cloud their own understanding of their abilities or lack thereof.


Unfortunately, some of these "students" hold very high rankings...


> I too have seen people who cannot utilize taijutsu against the most mundane attacks, and yet hold Dan ranking. As I said in a previous comment, whatever they may think their rank is, it is in fact not. These types of practices do mock the efforts of the dedicated and deserving, and I am in agreement with you that something ought to be done about it.


Hatsumi sensei has been quoted as saying regarding the 1,000 shidoshi milestone (paraphrasing), "500 good, 500 bad." Personally, I think his goal may have been to spur shidoshi to further their own training so as not to be in the "bad" crowd. 
Now, given that Hatsumi sensei seems to have a laissez-faire attitude about the situation, what do you suggest be done?


> That having been said, I can't advocate 1st to 4th Dan being prohibited from having training groups, but, rather that each and every person be held to a high standard akin to what was expected before the art became widely popular, even if this means revoking rank from those who don't deserve it.


I agree with the first part of this paragraph, provided that there is a link at some level to what's being done in Japan. However, how do you propose revoking rank that has been issued through Hatsumi sensei?
For what it's worth, I also feel that there are many people in the Bujinkan whose menkyo is not worth the paper it's printed on. I'm very careful about the people I choose to train under. But, I don't feel it's my place to impose what I look for in an instructor on others...

Jeff


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 30, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> But, I don't feel it's my place to impose what I look for in an instructor on others...


I do, if I come across people who have been training for more than a year and have yet to have heard kihon happo being MENTIONED by their instructor...


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## Henso (Mar 30, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, some of these "students" hold very high rankings...
> 
> However, how do you propose revoking rank that has been issued through Hatsumi sensei?
> 
> ...


As concerns the matter of high ranks being given, seemingly without merit, I agree with you that they do exist and that this is a problem.

As concerns ranking adjustments, let me start out by saying that thankfully that is not my responsibility, as it is a huge mess. However, it would be just if, for instance, if going forward all future testing required a demonstration of previously required skills, making the student responsible to either make up any ground they need to, or be ranked upon performance alone. This would have to based upon a uniform set of standards that are known by all in advance. This way, each individual would be responsible for his own rank. this is what I do with students before I pass them onto Ed martin for his assessment.

As concerns the last protion of your remarks, as shown above, I agree with everything you said, except the part about imposing upon others what they should seek in a teacher, (assuming that I understand your intent) as it seems to me a pointless exercise to question quality without proposing the imposition of uniform standards.


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Now, given that Hatsumi sensei seems to have a laissez-faire attitude about the situation, what do you suggest be done?



Ah yes, ever hear the term, "Physician, heal thyself"?

I think Jeff knows what I am thinking about and left the bluntness to me, the ogre of this board. But to those that can' t seem to understand I say this- get your own abilities to as high a level as they can before you talk about trying to get others to do as you will in the name of quality control.

And before you ask, this is coming from a person who has spent the last decade in Japan without opening his own dojo. I know I have to get better than I am now. I just know that I can see others that know less than I who presume to tell others how to do things. Don't worry about what other people are doing and concentrate more on your own problems. Oh, you want us to think you don't have any problems and your taijutsu is perfect?

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 30, 2005)

Henso said:
			
		

> As concerns the matter of high ranks being given, seemingly without merit, I agree with you that they do exist and that this is a problem.


It's only a problem because people make it so.



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> However, it would be just if, for instance, if going forward all future testing required a demonstration of previously required skills, making the student responsible to either make up any ground they need to, or be ranked upon performance alone.


And how does this take into account students whose memory of techniques deteriorate with age, or people that simply forget about things?



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> This would have to based upon a uniform set of standards that are known by all in advance.


It would be much cooler if we didn't have to agree upon any kind of standards...the only thing holding us back is the people who try to become like Soke and the shihans nowadays without understanding that they didn't get that good by always practicing the way they do today.



			
				Henso said:
			
		

> I agree with everything you said, except the part about imposing upon others what they should seek in a teacher, (assuming that I understand your intent) as it seems to me a pointless exercise to question quality without proposing the imposition of uniform standards.


If you can't punch, can't take a hit, can't move your feet, can't twist your hips and your spine, can't do ukemi after being thrown, don't know your kihon happo, don't know your kamae and don't know your distancing, you have better things to do than Shiraishi-influenced sword training.


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## saru1968 (Mar 30, 2005)

Mt Taijutsu is not perfect and as always will require work.

I agree with the idea of demonstrting prior knowledge. When i grade my students past 6th Kyu i ask them to demonstrate core components from their previous grades.

But as said before its best just to worry about your own training, rank does not show ability, your Taijutsu does. IMHO

Gary


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## Cryozombie (Mar 30, 2005)

I dont think anyones Taijutsu is perfect, everyone strives to improve, I would bet even Hatsumi would say that about himself.


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## ninhito (Mar 30, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I dont think anyones Taijutsu is perfect, everyone strives to improve, I would bet even Hatsumi would say that about himself.


yeah but if hes soke wouldnt that mean that his taijutsu is perfect?


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## Dale Seago (Mar 30, 2005)

ninhito said:
			
		

> yeah but if hes soke wouldnt that mean that his taijutsu is perfect?



I don't see that that necessarily follows.


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## saru1968 (Mar 31, 2005)

IMHO its a continious (sp?) journey..ongoing, refining, was too short an answer but 'baby' was up one the hour ever hour, so very tired, and if i look for a deeper post i will be some pages long and its too early in the day i've only been awake for less than an hour.



Gary


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## davidg553 (Mar 31, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> A while ago at another board...


 What board was this? I'm always looking to add to my collection of places to waste my time while at work.


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## davidg553 (Mar 31, 2005)

Henso said:
			
		

> As concerns the matter of high ranks being given, seemingly without merit, I agree with you that they do exist and that this is a problem.


 I'm in agreement with Nimravus, its only a problem because people make it a problem. When talking about "high" dan levels I'm assuming that you are referring to those above godan. Don't forget that those who are at those dan levels have been promoted by Hatsumi Soke; given that, who are you to question what their rank is? To say that these ranks are given "seemingly without merit", is to call into question the decisions that Soke makes. Soke promotes as he sees fit and its not our job to second guess him, especially in a public forum.

 Sure, some high ranked people have what many of us would consider to be poor basics, but so what? If you don't like their skill don't train with them. Don't recommend them to your friends and students. Decide in your own heart to be better than they are. 

 Better yet, stop gossiping and put your money where your mouth is. If I'm not mistaken Soke at one point said something to the effect of if you don't think someone is deserving of their rank then go and take it from them. You can come back and report to us how your Bujinkan purification tour is going. Who knows, maybe you'll learn that Soke's art is about more than just perfect technique.

 Last time I was in Japan, Hasumi sensei said a couple of things that caught my attention. He said that if you can "see" what he is doing then you really don't. He also said that anyone can "get" what he is teaching (and what the art is about) and that the getting can happen in an instant. There are lots of reasons that Soke promotes as he does and maybe one of those reasons is based upon people "getting" it. 

 If a white belt "gets" it and is promoted by Soke or one of the Shihan to a dan rank, I'd tend to value their rank more than that of someone who got there because of perfect technical skills and no understanding.

 Overall you seem to miss the boat on what rank appears to mean in Japan and in this art. I don't fully understand it myself if, at all, but then again I'm not the one dressing down other people in the art because they don't measure up to my expectations.

 I trust the decisions that Soke and his Shihan make. I trust the decisions that my instructor makes. Apart from that I do my best to keep my head down and work on, as Don said, healing myself.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 31, 2005)

davidg553 said:
			
		

> Better yet, stop gossiping and put your money where your mouth is. If I'm not mistaken Soke at one point said something to the effect of if you don't think someone is deserving of their rank then go and take it from them. You can come back and report to us how your Bujinkan purification tour is going. Who knows, maybe you'll learn that Soke's art is about more than just perfect technique.


Actually, the teacher of my teacher, at the time he was still active before his injury, was supposedly told by Hatsumi sensei that he could try to sucker-punch any of the Japanese shihan at will, if he at any time found them to have their guard down. Nowadays I think this applies to all people over tenth dan in the Bujinkan, if you've got a clear shot at them, go for it.


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## davidg553 (Mar 31, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Actually, the teacher of my teacher, at the time he was still active before his injury, was supposedly told by Hatsumi sensei that he could try to sucker-punch any of the Japanese shihan at will, if he at any time found them to have their guard down. Nowadays I think this applies to all people over tenth dan in the Bujinkan, if you've got a clear shot at them, go for it.


 The downside being when your attack fails and the response is more than you were looking for.  

 Personally I'll leave the sucker punching for other people. One of my training partners at Nagato's class was acting as his uke for the entire night. When he (my training partner) kept coming back over not even knowing what we were working on due to the beating he was getting, it was a clue to me that I'm not ready to sucker punch him.


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## Henso (Mar 31, 2005)

davidg553 said:
			
		

> Sure, some high ranked people have what many of us would consider to be poor basics, but so what? If you don't like their skill don't train with them. Don't recommend them to your friends and students. Decide in your own heart to be better than they are.
> 
> Better yet, stop gossiping and put your money where your mouth is. If I'm not mistaken Soke at one point said something to the effect of if you don't think someone is deserving of their rank then go and take it from them. You can come back and report to us how your Bujinkan purification tour is going. Who knows, maybe you'll learn that Soke's art is about more than just perfect technique.


David, 

If you review the balance of my posts, you will notice that I have been advocating that people of your grade (Sandan, I think) and mine, should be allowed to run training groups, so as to make available the teachings of the Bujinkan to all who are interested. As you noted above: "Sure, some high ranked people have what many of us would consider to be poor basics, but so what?"
The so what?, is that others, many who unlike me are critics of Hatsumi Sensei, use the substance of your observation as proofs of their various arguements against everything Sensei has accomplished. Additionally, if you review some of the early comments of Nimravus, whom you quoted above, you will notice that he stated that:"Given the lack of quality assurance in the Bujinkan, I'd rather not take my chances." Which is almost the same setiment as yours quoted above, except the "So what?" is given at the end.

Essentially what I have been trying to say, is that I agree with your statement realting to the basics, and at the same time have heard many echo Nimravus' point which responds to your "So what?" My suggestion, and I hope you will take the time to note that I noted that globally, this was not my responsibility, was at attempt to reconcile these two points.

As concerns the matter of challenging individuals ranks, you will notice that I very deliberately mentioned no a single person, as your observation that I quoted above, general and not specific. In addition to this, the idea that a reflection upon a matter to which we have come to the same intial conclusion, should digress to challenging me to physiaclly challenge others, coupled with accusing me of having missed the boat on the purpose of our training, lends the lie to the very arugement you are making.

Surely we can have an adult conversation where no indivduals are named and nobody's loyalty is questioned, especially not when so many of us have come to the same fundamental conclusion regarding the skill question.

This is the last I have to say on this matter.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 31, 2005)

The criticism here is not aimed towards Hatsumi. The problem arises when people abuse his given confidence in us, which as we all probably know has happened all too often.

Suppose Hayes, Doron, Munthe, Daniel and the rest of the ol' boys would have stayed and trained with Hatsumi sensei until their knowledge had equalled that of a present day 15th dan like Pedro Fleitas, Peter King, Brin Morgan, Arnaud Cousergue, Tim Bathurst et cetera. What do you think would be different (apart from the Bujinkan probably being unheard of until the mid-90's or something like that)?


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## Henso (Mar 31, 2005)

Although I stated that I wouldn't say anything more on this matter, I noticed that I may have inadvertently implied that those question the skill matter were critics of Hatsumi. This was not my intention, most especially as concerned Nimravus, who I quoted in my previous thread.


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## davidg553 (Mar 31, 2005)

Henso said:
			
		

> Although I stated that I wouldn't say anything more on this matter, I noticed that I may have inadvertently implied that those question the skill matter were critics of Hatsumi. This was not my intention, most especially as concerned Nimravus, who I quoted in my previous thread.


 But if your criticizing the rank of someone who was given that rank by Hatsumi soke, then it seems to me, that by default you are criticizing soke.


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## davidg553 (Mar 31, 2005)

Henso said:
			
		

> David,
> 
> If you review the balance of my posts, you will notice that I have been advocating that people of your grade (Sandan, I think) and mine, should be allowed to run training groups, so as to make available the teachings of the Bujinkan to all who are interested.


 That is true. I'm actually not too concerned with the issue of whether or not people like us should be allowed to run a training group. Hatsumi soke has authorized those under godan to run groups when supervised by a shidoshi, which I am.

 I do have to confess, my only reason for starting the group was a selfish one. In order to progress in my own training, I needed to stop fighting the invisible assailants between trips to train with my teacher. Bodies are much better for hitting and throwing than air. I've also heard that soke has said something to the effect that he doesn't care if the Bujinkan gets any bigger. 

 Given that I have taken on the reponsibilty of being a leader, I take it seriously and do my best to give those who train with me the best training I can.




> The so what?, is that others, many who unlike me are critics of Hatsumi Sensei, use the substance of your observation as proofs of their various arguements against everything Sensei has accomplished.


 This may not come as a suprise but I don't really care what the critics of Hatsumi soke say or don't say. He doesn't seem to be too concerned so why should I? These people don't affect me or my training. If anyone doesn't like what I teach or think that I'm not skilled enough to be a teacher, it doesn't phase me. My door opens both ways and anyone is free to leave as they please. Hence my use of the term "so what?"



> Additionally, if you review some of the early comments of Nimravus, whom you quoted above, you will notice that he stated that:"Given the lack of quality assurance in the Bujinkan, I'd rather not take my chances." Which is almost the same setiment as yours quoted above, except the "So what?" is given at the end.


 i
 I don't remember everything Nimravus says nor do I agree with everything he says. I don't claim to not have opinions about the skill levels of various high level ranks but I don't dis them on a public forum whether they are named or unnamed. I am very selective about who I do or don't train with, and my "quality assurance" is to not train with those I don't consider to be good.



> Essentially what I have been trying to say, is that I agree with your statement realting to the basics, and at the same time have heard many echo Nimravus' point which responds to your "So what?" My suggestion, and I hope you will take the time to note that I noted that globally, this was not my responsibility, was at attempt to reconcile these two points.


 I did have several issues (too strong a word?) with your posts. The first being that you were talking down the rank of people who were promoted to their rank by soke. I'm not trying discredit your loyalty and all that as I don't know you. In my opinion when you say that somone is not worthy of the rank that they have then you are ultimately pointing fingers at the person who gave them their rank.

  Another thing that irked me (better word?) was your use of definites when talking about how things should be.

 "I personnly think that a shodan be required to have substantive knowlegde of the nine Ryuha, and the ability to name and demonstrate certain waza from those where the knowledge is publically available."

 In the above quote, your setting a standard that is higher than the one set by soke. The implication that I get is that soke's standard is not good enough. I will say as a disclaimer that we do use a syllabus that is based on the TCJ although full mastery of that not a necessary requirment for protion to shodan (TC for kyuu)

 "As I said in a previous comment, whatever they may think their rank is, it is in fact not. These types of practices do mock the efforts of the dedicated and deserving, and I am in agreement with you that something ought to be done about it."

 For me that was some strong language. Who are you to say that someone is not the rank that they have. It goes to my point of saying that a person is the rank that they have a menkyo for. If I don't think they are good I avoid them. If the system is good enough for soke why does something have to be done about it?




> As concerns the matter of challenging individuals ranks, you will notice that I very deliberately mentioned no a single person, as your observation that I quoted above, general and not specific.


 True, you didn't name names but I'm sure that you have a few people in mind. My issue was with the general criticsicm you had for people granted rank by soke that you didn't feel they were deserving of. If you were only knocking those below godan (not promoted by soke or the shihan) then I apologize.

 [qoute]In addition to this, the idea that a reflection upon a matter to which we have come to the same intial conclusion, should digress to challenging me to physiaclly challenge others, coupled with accusing me of having missed the boat on the purpose of our training, lends the lie to the very arugement you are making.[/quote] 
 Maybe you have missed the boat or maybe you haven't. I don't know. I really don't know anything about you other than what I have read here. I'm sure that you are aware that I used the term "it seems", in other words my opinion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That is the danger of posting on an online forum.

 I didn't realize that I was "challenging" you. I was paraphrasing soke and trying to, however badly, point out that carrying on about the suckiness factor of various people (named or unnamed) on a public forum is not the "Bujinkan" way to deal with it.



> Surely we can have an adult conversation where no indivduals are named and nobody's loyalty is questioned, especially not when so many of us have come to the same fundamental conclusion regarding the skill question.


 It sounds I'm being accused of not being "adult" in my conversation. I haven't questioned loyalty, I've questioned perspective and criticism of those promoted by soke.



> This is the last I have to say on this matter.


  Now that is truly the adult way to have a conversation.  The cyberspace equivalent of taking your ball and going home.

 Like I said, you may be the greatest, most loyal, best-hearted person in the Bujinkan. I'm going by the postings here. You said what you had to say and I said what I did. Don't get all pissy because I came on strong over some of the things you said.

  Anyways, sometimes I can't help posting the way that I do. Its in my nature. Just ask Kreth.


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## Mountain Kusa (Apr 1, 2005)

I think all the above argument stems from the one thing we are not supposed to be doing, worrying about what others are or are not. We have enough confusion and time spent just trying to figure out what it is we are supposed to be doing. We should not worry about where we are; leave that up to our teachers. If we have those whom we are charged with helping learn this art; we should worry about them. Soke does what he does, it is his to make those decicions. In the end when a violent confrontation starts, it will not matter what hangs around my waist. Nor that I can hold up a certificate that says I am this. At that time it will only matter what I have managed to learn, and will be in no way affected by what someone else is, or what someone else says that I am or am not. Just keep going, and do the best that you can, it is all that anyone can ask.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 1, 2005)

Keeping going is not enough. You have to keep going correctly.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 1, 2005)

I dunno Nim, if you just keep going, maybe eventually you will find "right" 

:idunno:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 1, 2005)

Would you bet on that? If so, why do people continue going to Japan instead of perfecting themselves at home?


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## Shizen Shigoku (Apr 2, 2005)

Nimravus: "..., why do people continue going to Japan instead of perfecting themselves at home?"

Because they can afford it.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 2, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Would you bet on that? If so, why do people continue going to Japan instead of perfecting themselves at home?


Because thats how they find right?

If they stop "keep going"... will they ever perfect themselves at home?

Probably not.

But if they "Keep Going" they may find that instructor, that insight, that bit of wisdom that leads them down that path...


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## Cryozombie (Apr 2, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Nimravus: "..., why do people continue going to Japan instead of perfecting themselves at home?"
> 
> Because they can afford it.


LOL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 2, 2005)

The obvious alternative is training with people who have been to Japan recently.

"Progress means that you're not doing the same mistakes over and over, but rather that you find yourself doing new ones."


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## davidg553 (Apr 3, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Nimravus: "..., why do people continue going to Japan instead of perfecting themselves at home?"
> 
> Because they can afford it.


 Some perhaps, but many can't truly afford it and only go as a result of sacrifice and perseverance.  If you do it right, going to Japan to train isn't "that" expensive. I can't speak for other countries but there is no reason why the average American can't go at least once in their lifetime. All one needs to do is eat in more, stop spending money on other activties a few times a month, collect cans, etc. Oh and there is always panhandling. All the "bums" I see on the way to and from work seem to be doing ok.


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