# Why most martial arts don't work in self defense.



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 5, 2020)

Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
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Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.

1. Wrong assumptions - Martial artists make many wrong assumptions about the streets. They assume it's going to be a fair fight. They assume they're going to face one untrained opponent. I could go on and on. When you're on the streets, you're not in your turf. You're in the criminal's territory. Street attackers don't follow your dojo or MMA gym's rules. They go by street rules which often has no rules.

2. Trying to control too many variables - The second biggest problem with most martial arts is they try to control too many variables. They often do demos. with compliant partners and spar with people of the same style. They add rules of what is and is not allowed in sparring. Truthfully, you can't control everything that happens in the streets. There's going to be things outside of your control. You can't really predict how your attacker will attack. All you can do is make educated guesses.

3. Unrealistic scenarios - Most martial artists engage in very unrealistic scenarios. They assume a street attacker will attack the way in a controlled manner usually in the defender's own art. That's far from reality. Most attackers attack chaotically with wild punches, kicks, bearhugs, bodyslams, headbutts, tackles, sucker punches, etc. It's going to be too fast and chaotic for your techniques to work.

4. Unrealistic techniques - Most martial artists have unrealistic techniques. They're too flashy to work in combat. They usually think in sequences. The problem with sequences is you're assuming your attacker won't react or resist. They usually resist the moment you try to do your first technique which makes it harder for you to execute your second one.

5. Unrealistic mindset - Most martial artists train with a sports mindset. They don't know the difference between an attack and a fight. An attack is a violent act meant to hurt you without your consent whereas a fight is agreed on. In a fight, there's some degree of respect and protection via. referees, mats, gloves, etc. That doesn't exist in a real attack. Street attackers have no problem bashing your skull in with a pipe. There's more blood and guts in street attacks than there is in fighting.

6. Impractical exercises - Martial artists often engage in pointless work outs like flow drills and forms. Flow drills don't translate well to real combat for several reasons. 1) Your attacker won't stay in one range. Your attacker will start in one distance then move to another. 2) There's no intent to attack. People who do flow drills often attack with the intent for their partners to defend and counter then repeat. Martial artists say "well the point of flow drills is to practice your reflexes, speed, coordination, etc." Well, getting those benefits practicing flow drills is the equivalent of playing patty-cakes with your hands. Forms are also useless. You can practice your techniques on an imaginary opponent all day, but things completely change when you're dealing with a real attacker. Martial artists think they're improving their stance, structure, techniques, etc. by doing forms. They're in for a rude awakening when they get attacked and can't maintain their forms under pressure via. getting rammed against, getting punched wildly, etc.

7. Ignorance of weapons and multiple attackers - Most martial artists neglect training against multiple attackers and armed attackers. They'll say "no art can deal with such situations" or "run" to justify bad training. If they do train against them, it's usually scripted and too flashy to be realistic. In fact, most martial artists who get attacked on the streets end up hurt or killed by weapons and/or multiple attackers.

8. Ignorance of stress - Most martial artists don't realize stress can greatly decrease your performance. It's not enough to simply spar full contact. When you reached a certain level of stress, your brain forgets complex motor skills because it's not necessary for survival. That means all your flashy techniques become useless. You'll get tunnel vision, stiff muscles, difficulty concentrating, difficulty breathing, etc. If you don't know how to manage stress, your techniques will suffer and might find yourself getting beaten up regardless if you had the right training or not.

9. Wrong techniques - Martial artists often train with the wrong techniques. They think if a punch or kick lands, it works. Nothing could be further from the truth. If it doesn't end the threat fast be it by breaking your attacker's limbs or knocking him/her out, it's not helping you defend yourself. Like the case with Meredith Kercher. She was a Karateka who got jumped by two people who plotted to kill her with knives. She fought for her life using Karate. She still got stabbed multiple times with knives, raped, and died with a sit throat. People can take Karate punches because they don't pack as much as power as other arts like boxing.

That's why most martial arts are impractical for self defense.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 5, 2020)

I don’t know about most martial arts.  I only know about what I train, and what I trained in the past.  

I don’t care about the issues that other systems may or may not have.

The guy who wrote that nonsense: f**k him.


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t know about most martial arts.  I only know about what I train, and what I trained in the past.
> 
> I don’t care about the issues that other systems may or may not have.
> 
> The guy who wrote that nonsense: f**k him.




Exactly. It's just a huge generalisation by someone who wants to show he 'knows better'. He doesn't.


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## skribs (Mar 5, 2020)

I'm mixing up your numbers a bit in my quotes below.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.



Is your position that "most martial arts don't work, and here is why" or that "of the martial arts that don't work, these are the most common reasons why"?



> 1. Wrong assumptions - Martial artists make many wrong assumptions about the streets. They assume it's going to be a fair fight. They assume they're going to face one untrained opponent. I could go on and on. When you're on the streets, you're not in your turf. You're in the criminal's territory. Street attackers don't follow your dojo or MMA gym's rules. They go by street rules which often has no rules.
> 
> 2. Trying to control too many variables - The second biggest problem with most martial arts is they try to control too many variables. They often do demos. with compliant partners and spar with people of the same style. They add rules of what is and is not allowed in sparring. Truthfully, you can't control everything that happens in the streets. There's going to be things outside of your control. You can't really predict how your attacker will attack. All you can do is make educated guesses.
> 
> 3. Unrealistic scenarios - Most martial artists engage in very unrealistic scenarios. They assume a street attacker will attack the way in a controlled manner usually in the defender's own art. That's far from reality. Most attackers attack chaotically with wild punches, kicks, bearhugs, bodyslams, headbutts, tackles, sucker punches, etc. It's going to be too fast and chaotic for your techniques to work.





> 6. Impractical exercises - Martial artists often engage in pointless work outs like flow drills and forms. Flow drills don't translate well to real combat for several reasons. 1) Your attacker won't stay in one range. Your attacker will start in one distance then move to another. 2) There's no intent to attack. People who do flow drills often attack with the intent for their partners to defend and counter then repeat. Martial artists say "well the point of flow drills is to practice your reflexes, speed, coordination, etc." Well, getting those benefits practicing flow drills is the equivalent of playing patty-cakes with your hands. Forms are also useless. You can practice your techniques on an imaginary opponent all day, but things completely change when you're dealing with a real attacker. Martial artists think they're improving their stance, structure, techniques, etc. by doing forms. They're in for a rude awakening when they get attacked and can't maintain their forms under pressure via. getting rammed against, getting punched wildly, etc.



I think this is very true.  The common complaint is that people train against unresistant opponents.  However, first you must define what "resistant" is, because some people have a different definition.  To some people, resistance only comes in the form of competition (meeting force with force to win a prize), but resistance can come in other forms as well.  Simulating a self-defense scenario isn't going to be the same as simulating a match.

However, what you highlight is something I've brought up before.  A lot of arts are only really trained to deal with what that art teaches.  Take for example:

Taekwondo, where a 1-step punch defense deals with a lunge punch.  The type of punch you see in TKD and Karate forms, but I've never seen in a real fight
Wing Chun, where you master the game of fighting for a dominant striking position, but it's a game nobody else is playing
In a lot of arts, if your opponent doesn't fight in the way your art does, you're left trying to figure out how to respond to their art and their way of doing things.



> 4. Unrealistic techniques - Most martial artists have unrealistic techniques. They're too flashy to work in combat. They usually think in sequences. The problem with sequences is you're assuming your attacker won't react or resist. They usually resist the moment you try to do your first technique which makes it harder for you to execute your second one.



Some techniques are unrealistic because they don't work.  Others because they're low percentage or inefficient.  There are some techniques that don't work because you haven't figured out how to make them work.



> 5. Unrealistic mindset - Most martial artists train with a sports mindset. They don't know the difference between an attack and a fight. An attack is a violent act meant to hurt you without your consent whereas a fight is agreed on. In a fight, there's some degree of respect and protection via. referees, mats, gloves, etc. That doesn't exist in a real attack. Street attackers have no problem bashing your skull in with a pipe. There's more blood and guts in street attacks than there is in fighting.





> 7. Ignorance of weapons and multiple attackers - Most martial artists neglect training against multiple attackers and armed attackers. They'll say "no art can deal with such situations" or "run" to justify bad training. If they do train against them, it's usually scripted and too flashy to be realistic. In fact, most martial artists who get attacked on the streets end up hurt or killed by weapons and/or multiple attackers.



The funny thing about these points is that a lot of people will take the mindset of "you can't win against weapons, so why train against weapons?"  This is false (as you can easily find security videos of bouncers and store employees disarming folks).  It kind of goes back to my point before - people are generally only trained to fight against themselves.  Someone who takes an unarmed art is only thinking of effectiveness against an unarmed opponent.

I will say that someone who has a high level of skill against an unarmed opponent is more likely to win against an armed opponent, than someone who has had bad training against armed opponents.  A good grappler is much more likely to control the guy with a stick, than someone who learned some cool moves and never used them to actually fight someone.



> 8. Ignorance of stress - Most martial artists don't realize stress can greatly decrease your performance. It's not enough to simply spar full contact. When you reached a certain level of stress, your brain forgets complex motor skills because it's not necessary for survival. That means all your flashy techniques become useless. You'll get tunnel vision, stiff muscles, difficulty concentrating, difficulty breathing, etc. If you don't know how to manage stress, your techniques will suffer and might find yourself getting beaten up regardless if you had the right training or not.



I'm going to disagree here.  If you do full contact sparring, you're getting used to the stress.  If you have testing or competitions, stress is involved.  If you don't get stressed while getting to a high level in your art, something is seriously wrong.



> 9. Wrong techniques - Martial artists often train with the wrong techniques. They think if a punch or kick lands, it works. Nothing could be further from the truth. If it doesn't end the threat fast be it by breaking your attacker's limbs or knocking him/her out, it's not helping you defend yourself. Like the case with Meredith Kercher. She was a Karateka who got jumped by two people who plotted to kill her with knives. She fought for her life using Karate. She still got stabbed multiple times with knives, raped, and died with a sit throat. People can take Karate punches because they don't pack as much as power as other arts like boxing.



I'm going to disagree here as well.  For one, the story you presented (while a good indictment of the problems of martial arts) doesn't seem to line up with this point.  It feels more suited to point #7 about multiple attackers and weapons.  We don't know from your recounting of the post why her martial arts failed her.  However, it's tough when you factor in:

Planning
Coordination against a single opponent
Weapons
I'm going to go out on a limb and say they were probably bigger than her as well
As to your other point, I agree and disagree.  I agree that people don't understand what will and will not finish a fight.  Even something like BJJ, would your opponent actually give up after you threaten the armbar, or will they sucker punch you after you release them?  Will a dislocated elbow actually end the fight, or will they stab you with their good arm?

But BJJ is also an example where you don't need to end the fight immediately.  You might just need to pin them down and get control until they cool off or realize you're not worth fighting.  Or you can protect yourself and control them while working towards that choke or limb destruction.  If your style is about defending until you find an opening, that's different than thinking you have an offense when all you're doing is tapping your opponent.



> That's why most martial arts are impractical for self defense.



I'm going to disagree.  Most arts will give you a good chance in the majority of fights you get into.  Not fights in the ring (where the other person is a trained fighter), but against the average joe who wants to pick a fight with you.


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## skribs (Mar 5, 2020)

@Kung Fu Wang 

What is your solution?  You've presented problems both with the sport side of arts (not looking at self-defense scenarios) and of the traditional side (training methods that don't involve pressure testing).  What is your method that solves all of these problems?


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## wab25 (Mar 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.
> 
> ...


He brings up a good point... ignorance. Unfortunately, he doesn't realize that he is guilty of ignorance... ignorance of how scenario training, kata and flow drills should be used for example. Unfortunately, many Martial Artists are also guilty of that same ignorance. They can also be ignorant of what they are training, are they training a game of tag, a sport with rules, a historical practice or an actual killing art. Unfortunately, many folks are ignorant about what they are ignorant about. Its great to train in a game of tag, or sport or historical practice... so long as you know what you are training and what you are not. People get into trouble when they find out they were actually training for tag, when at this moment, they need a surviving type art. People put themselves into a situation to find that out, when they don't realize what they don't know.


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## Bruce7 (Mar 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.
> 
> ...


I am sorry hit wrong button my reply is father down


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## wab25 (Mar 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'm going to disagree here. If you do full contact sparring, you're getting used to the stress. If you have testing or competitions, stress is involved. If you don't get stressed while getting to a high level in your art, something is seriously wrong.


Sure, you can and should learn to deal with stress in your training. The issue brought up though, is that all this stress we have in our Martial Arts training, always carries the expectation of us going home when we are done, with the possible exception of visiting the hospital... but even those are relatively rare for how "deadly" we perceive our arts to be. In a real attack, there is no expectation of you going home. Being dead is a very real and possible conclusion. There is no way to really train that. There is also no way to predict how you would respond. Even if you responded last time correctly and saved yourself, thats no indicator that next time, you won't freeze up. Dealing with someone suddenly trying to kill you, right now... is very different than dealing with a full contact opponent, with rules, a ring and a ref. Thinking you can deal with the stress of someone trying to kill you, just because you can deal with the stress of an organized competition... will get you into a position where you will find out.


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## Bruce7 (Mar 5, 2020)

I agree with alot of what you are saying. I think it has alot to do with your teacher.
My teacher fought behind enemy lines during Korean War.
He was both traditional and practical.
I have used what he taught us in many fights.
We were trained against multiple attachers.
Spareing was done with no pads.
Sparing was done with no time limits.
That was 40 years ago, I don't know if that is practable now.
If someone is hurt, you might get sued.


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

I agree with Tez that it is a huge generalization. But there are some good points made that everyone training any style MA style should look out for and be aware of. 
Training with resistance often gets batted around. Of course it is necessary but how/when do you say 'that is enough resistance' to say a skill works against it. There are just too many variables, and the magnitude of each of them change based on the conditions. Remember, you want to be able to return to class/training for many years. 
I have had broken bones and knocked out from competition. Does this constitute enough resistance? In the regular training of self defense I would say No. It was a totally different environment and no matter how physical it was, somewhere in the back of my head I never thought I may be killed or greatly harmed. Yes the breaks and knockouts sucked but I was up and going the same day so I did not see/feel the same magnitude as what is possible in a SD situation.

One of the most dangerous things anyone training can do is mentally think of things like one-steps and forms just as a series of movements. Sure that is how they start out and either lack of mental translation or lack of repetition will keep them that way. That is non-productive dangerous training whether it is the instructors fault or the practitioner.

When people talk about things getting lost in translation and over time, this list is a very good example. 
Do some of the newer training styles have merit? Sure. But it is a load of crap to say No style of MA training works. Just a bunch of fodder. 

Is your martial arts class is surprisingly similar to your aerobics class? Then, yes; Here's your sign.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> @Kung Fu Wang
> 
> What is your solution?  You've presented problems both with the sport side of arts (not looking at self-defense scenarios) and of the traditional side (training methods that don't involve pressure testing).  What is your method that solves all of these problems?


I believe in:

1. Entering strategy - move in safely without being kicked and punched.
2. Finish strategy - finish a fight ASAP.

Whatever the training that can achieve these 2 goals will be my training focus.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 5, 2020)

wab25 said:


> he doesn't realize that he is guilty of ignorance...


Many people attacks that person who starts that thread in another forum.

I have no interest about the person who made those statement. I'm only interested about the statement he made.

By using his statement, I can examine my own training to see if my training has any weakness or not.

For example,

4. Unrealistic techniques - Most martial artists have unrealistic techniques. They're too flashy to work in combat. They usually think in sequences. The problem with sequences is you're assuming your attacker won't react or resist. They usually resist the moment you try to do your first technique which makes it harder for you to execute your second one.

I like to attack, let my opponent to respond, I then respond to his respond. I won't assume my initial attack will work.


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## Headhunter (Mar 5, 2020)

Sounds like a lot of rambling of a guy trying to sound smart. All martial arts have the potential to work in self defence it all depends on the practitioner and how that martial art is trained


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> But there are some good points made that everyone training any style MA style should look out for and be aware of.




There probably are good points but they have all been raised, discussed, raised again, discussed again ad nauseum and I really can't find anything more to add than all the things I said last time, and the time before that...……. 
I know newer posters will find this more interesting so having added my tuppence worth I shall retire almost graciously


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## skribs (Mar 5, 2020)

wab25 said:


> ignorance of how scenario training, kata and flow drills should be used for example.



Yes, but also a lot of people who do scenario training, kata, and flow drills don't know how they should be used.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe in:
> 
> 1. Entering strategy - move in safely without being kicked and punched.
> 2. Finish strategy - finish a fight ASAP.
> ...



To be fair, I missed that this was a post you were copying, and had assumed it was you that wrote it.  



Headhunter said:


> Sounds like a lot of rambling of a guy trying to sound smart. All martial arts have the potential to work in self defence it all depends on the practitioner and how that martial art is trained



I think it's important to recognize the gaps in your training.  I think it's important for a traditional guy to recognize the need to pressure test, and for a sport guy to think about self-defense scenarios.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> To be fair, I missed that this was a post you were copying, and had assumed it was you that wrote it.


In the other forum, everybody attack the person who starts that thread. What I don't understand is, why not just discuss the subject and leave the person along?


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## skribs (Mar 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the other forum, everybody attack the person who starts that thread. What I don't understand is, why not just discuss the subject and leave the person along?



As bad as a lot of the people on this site are, this is still the least toxic martial arts forum I have found.  And, like I said - this guy said things that would be against the traditional arts (about how flow drills and forms have problems) and about sport arts (that they don't think about weapons).  So right there he's angered everyone.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 5, 2020)

Just like the 8 steps preying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang said, "When your friend poured you a cup of tea, he could throw the hot tea on your face, and then beat you up."

Does your training cover that?


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## Tez3 (Mar 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just like the 8 steps preying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang said, "When your friend poured you a cup of tea, he could throw the hot tea on your face, and then beat you up."
> 
> Does your training cover that?




Hell, yes, I'm English!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> As bad as a lot of the people on this site are, this is still the least toxic martial arts forum I have found.  And, like I said - this guy said things that would be against the traditional arts (about how flow drills and forms have problems) and about sport arts (that they don't think about weapons).  So right there he's angered everyone.


Sometime we may forget that "sport" is only the path and not the goal.

When I was young, I used to train how to dodge tennis balls while standing in a small circle. IMO, the new generation may not include "how to dodge a throwing object" in their training.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just like the 8 steps preying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang said, "When your friend poured you a cup of tea, he could throw the hot tea on your face, and then beat you up."
> 
> Does your training cover that?


I no longer hang out with my friends where that's a concern.


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Sounds like a lot of rambling of a guy trying to sound smart. All martial arts have the potential to work in self defence it all depends on the practitioner and how that martial art is trained


True, but it is also true that All martial have the potential to fail as well. @Kung Fu Wang said it Very well in post #12.


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## drop bear (Mar 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> @Kung Fu Wang
> 
> What is your solution?  You've presented problems both with the sport side of arts (not looking at self-defense scenarios) and of the traditional side (training methods that don't involve pressure testing).  What is your method that solves all of these problems?



You sportify self defense.

So if you think say BJJ only works against one guy. You BJJ against multiple guys. And so on.

Wear a mask and roll with eye gouges. Roll with punches. Do MMA with guns.

Or create your own competitions that reflect the issues that you think occur in self defense.

The problem occurs when people have an outcome they are selling and so set up broken scenarios.

And what we find is people then approach these scenarios in the right way. So say someone is some flash TKD kicker but has entered a kickboxing comp. 

Then we find these people need to find a delivery system to manage that problem.


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## dvcochran (Mar 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Or create your own competitions that reflect the issues that you think occur in self defense.


This is not the worst idea I have ever heard. It would take tons of logistics to get it started.

The rest of the post is total wasted airspace.


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## skribs (Mar 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime we may forget that "sport" is only the path and not the goal.
> 
> When I was young, I used to train how to dodge tennis balls while standing in a small circle. IMO, the new generation may not include "how to dodge a throwing object" in their training.



For many, sport is the goal.


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 5, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe in:
> 
> 1. Entering strategy - move in safely without being kicked and punched.
> 2. Finish strategy - finish a fight ASAP.
> ...



It is hard to disagree with most all of your initial OP in this forum, which I believe you were quoting.  All of those points are things to be seriously considered and taken into account.  They are all potential weaknesses in an actual fight.

But it's not that MA won't work for real, it just won't work if those points are not taken into account and trained for.

Re: your comment on fighting sequences not often working because the opponent will resist the initial move thus nullifying the next moves in the sequence.  That all depends on the design of the sequence!  "No plan survives the first contact." is a combat truism embraced thru history.  You must assume resistance and that every move you make will not succeed.

If he blocks your attack and counter punches, a slight detour of your second strike into a blocking move will allow the 3rd move in a sequence to be launched.  If you expect *and train for* the likely resisting response/counter, you have the solution.  There must be flexibility in the sequence, or it truly is useless.

Using a single move to accomplish both defense and offense decreases the chance of a counter, as does employing both hands at the same time - one to defend and the other to simultaneously attack.  Attacks must be direct, simple, take resistance into account and lead to a finishing move ASAP.  Easy, huh?


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## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> This is not the worst idea I have ever heard. It would take tons of logistics to get it started.
> 
> The rest of the post is total wasted airspace.



Well it wouldn't. You could start at a club or interclub level.
Or do something that exists like a dog brothers or something.

Otherwise that wasted airspace is still basically scientific method. And is really the only reliable method there is.






And with self defense it is a very simple problem.

You see some sort of attack, problem,scenario.

You research a defense.

You go fight a bunch of guys with it.

It works, doesn't work, sorta works.


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## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Using a single move to accomplish both defense and offense decreases the chance of a counter, as does employing both hands at the same time - one to defend and the other to simultaneously attack. Attacks must be direct, simple, take resistance into account and lead to a finishing move ASAP. Easy, huh?



The attack and counter thing has issues. So if I am blocking with one hand and striking with the other. And they are striking with both hands and blocking using footwork and timing then they have twice the opportunity to hit me. 

And moving is less mental effort as it will work without having to read a strike and then react to it. 

If you look at Krav maga for example one of their signature moves is blocking and striking simultaneously. 

But if you ever look at Krav sparring they basically never pull that move off.


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## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Well it wouldn't. You could start at a club or interclub level.
> Or do something that exists like a dog brothers or something.
> 
> Otherwise that wasted airspace is still basically scientific method. And is really the only reliable method there is.
> ...


That is a great poster. 100% SM accurate. However, nearly All of your post are so laced with confirmation bias that they mean dick. 
I have no doubt that you roll hard and have some real slobber knocker matches. In regards to the poster, that would be in the hypothesize/experiment areas. Until you have been able to fully experience (test hypothesis) a significant portion of all MA's (not just one school from each style) you have not effectively put SM to use. As an example, I am certain there are some BJJ schools that go at it much harder than others. 
In other words, your martial arts or fighting system (whatever You call what you do) works in your world. Summarily saying it works 100% of the time, all the time is BS. Period. 
I enjoy conversing with you when you bring your knowledge to the table. When you quickly jump to your usual narrative, it gets really old.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.
> 
> ...


I think most of those are marketing language. There are some good points in there, but several of them contradict each other. If you put them all together, there seem to be only two options: nothing, or all-out attacks on each other with no rules.

I'll address the more reasonable points, in the interest of time:

1. Yes, but not necessarily the wrong assumptions stated here. Reviewing videos that are available and talking with folks who deal with attacks is probably the best we can do to adjust our assumptions.

2. I'm not sure what his actual point is here. He seems to mix a couple of other points together. Going from his initial phrase, I agree. There's a tendency to start from the assumption that you get to work at one given distance (some arts close, some farther, etc.), which is a mistake. Good fight training/SD training should cover controlling/working at various distances.

3. Again, he seems to mix points here. SD-oriented schools tend to make this mistake, but not in the way outlined. I think this is mostly a repeat of #1.

5. This is something said often by SD schools. I'm not sure there's a lot of validity in the "sport mindset is bad" claim. @drop bear can do a better job than me of expounding on that.

6. This seems to be mostly a misunderstanding of the purpose of drills.

7. Not really true of SD-oriented training. Whether they do well at this or not is an entirely different question.

8. I can't think of an instructor I've trained with for more than a couple of hours who hasn't actually made this point, so not sure where they're getting it.

9. While some folks do seem to train as if a single technique will end the attack/fight, most don't seem to train with that mindset. It's certainly not universal, as the quote implies. The extreme example provided is a ridiculous jump.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 6, 2020)

It doesn't look like the person who wrote that has had much experience in the martial arts.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> For many, sport is the goal.



This is a good point to further divide the purpose of MA's practice for some people. 
TMA with hard contact and emphasis
Sport MA
MA done more as healthful exercise only. No desire or intent for hard contact or competition. 

The last one gets tough to translate sometimes. I suppose it is in the same category as kid students keeping the doors open. Don't misunderstand the message. Every practitioner should get the same training and exposure. It is just a fact of life that some people can/will be able to go harder than others. Where/when/how you decide each person has satisfied the curriculum requirements is subjective. The 35 year old engineer with 4 kids and a wife, mortgage and other debt will look at things differently from the 24 year old unmarried engineer. Always. @drop bear , this has to be factored into the SM. 

Everybody spars in our classes. Hard rule. We have some adults that will never be competitive. They go light in sparring and that is understood. I take the time to have clear concise conversations about the effects. I always try to offset the loss of sparring effects with hard contact drills. 
Somehow, somewhere every person learning a martial art must experience the sensation of being rocked and how to not freeze up and overcome it. I know of no other way to experience this than to have it repeatedly happen. If anyone else has found ways to minimize the risk I would love to hear them.

There has been some very good references about the effects of stress. Stress comes in two primary forms; mental stress and physical stress. Interestingly, each can affect the other and the variables are almost endless. 
A mildly fit, sedentary worker with a laser focus and strong mental acuity can overcome more physical exertion than a body builder or defensive lineman in some situations. Naturally, the inverse can also be true. 
Interestingly, there is quite a lot of recorded evidence of people of apparently average strength doing super human feats for extended periods. It is thought to be a Placebo effect whereas since the body has never felt stress at such a level it does not register it as a negative thus the mind does not tell the body to shut down. Pretty cool stuff to me and exactly the 'indominable spirit' that many martial arts talk about.   

I think the greatest variable in this discussion is at what point does the stress of a situation start to adversely affect the person? 

Some people come in our classes and are effectively stressed before they ever walk in the door. Others come in with quite a lot of capacity. I have seen a similar occurrence in siblings of close age a number of times. Regardless of where the stress trigger starts for a given person the goal is to move the trigger farther out as they continue to practice. Learning how to move the scale for each individual is a challenge the instructor/teacher has to figure out. 

All this said, I feel some people will always have a greater capacity for stress than others.


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## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I think most of those are marketing language. There are some good points in there, but several of them contradict each other. If you put them all together, there seem to be only two options: nothing, or all-out attacks on each other with no rules.
> 
> I'll address the more reasonable points, in the interest of time:
> 
> ...



Very well said.


----------



## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> It is hard to disagree with most all of your initial OP in this forum, which I believe you were quoting.  All of those points are things to be seriously considered and taken into account.  They are all potential weaknesses in an actual fight.
> 
> But it's not that MA won't work for real, it just won't work if those points are not taken into account and trained for.
> 
> ...



I think part of it depends on how they're trained.  Virtually every grappling art will teach you individual techniques or drill you on progressions from take-down to control to submission or pin.  If these drills are always practiced the same way, and you never drill for other techniques or how to deal with your plan going awry, then you're going to be really easily beaten when your initial technique fails.

However, I think that just as often, people see a video saying "Hapkido throw" and assume that because it's not Judo or Wrestling, that we don't drill for resistance or to modify our plans should our opponent react in different ways.

In fact, I'm kind of curious to go onto reddit (where the martial arts community is very much of the attitude that "it's MMA or it's bullshido") and post 2 videos.  They would be the exact same, except in one video I would call it "Hapkido throw" and in the other I would call it "MMA throw" and see if I get different comments on both videos.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The attack and counter thing has issues. So if I am blocking with one hand and striking with the other. And they are striking with both hands and blocking using footwork and timing then they have twice the opportunity to hit me.


This does not make sense to me.  Perhaps you missed the word "simultaneously."  Usually, attacks come in two counts:  jab, then cross, for example.  If I block the jab and counter on the same beat, the counter will land before the cross is launched and will be nullified.  Rarely does an attacker strike with both hands at the same time.  Even if he does, the worst case scenario is that one of his attacks will be blocked, and the other one will land the same time as mine.  I don't get how he has twice the chance to hit me.


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## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> I think part of it depends on how they're trained.  Virtually every grappling art will teach you individual techniques or drill you on progressions from take-down to control to submission or pin.  If these drills are always practiced the same way, and you never drill for other techniques or how to deal with your plan going awry, then you're going to be really easily beaten when your initial technique fails.
> 
> However, I think that just as often, people see a video saying "Hapkido throw" and assume that because it's not Judo or Wrestling, that we don't drill for resistance or to modify our plans should our opponent react in different ways.
> 
> In fact, I'm kind of curious to go onto reddit (where the martial arts community is very much of the attitude that "it's MMA or it's bullshido") and post 2 videos.  They would be the exact same, except in one video I would call it "Hapkido throw" and in the other I would call it "MMA throw" and see if I get different comments on both videos.


That would be an excellent experiment in confirmation bias. It would be very interesting to hear the results.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That is a great poster. 100% SM accurate. However, nearly All of your post are so laced with confirmation bias that they mean dick.
> I have no doubt that you roll hard and have some real slobber knocker matches. In regards to the poster, that would be in the hypothesize/experiment areas. Until you have been able to fully experience (test hypothesis) a significant portion of all MA's (not just one school from each style) you have not effectively put SM to use. As an example, I am certain there are some BJJ schools that go at it much harder than others.
> In other words, your martial arts or fighting system (whatever You call what you do) works in your world. Summarily saying it works 100% of the time, all the time is BS. Period.
> I enjoy conversing with you when you bring your knowledge to the table. When you quickly jump to your usual narrative, it gets really old.



The self defense I have engaged in have have been slobber knocker matches.  And so some training that vaguely reflects that gives me the best chance of being successful.

So the usual narrative is essentially inescapable.

Now people can sell self defense however they want but without the essential elements of training with real resistance. Your slobber knocker training, It just isn't going to be a very good product.

That is why when I ask for a video of whatever people's crazy idea they think will work. I get some kind of excuse. Because they haven't tested it. And are trying to hide that fact.

And that is why I am useful in a technical discussion. Because instead of talking about techniques and methods I haven't used and don't understand. Or about self defense situations that I have read or heard about.

I have real practical experience and am not trying to scam anyone or promote some system I am selling.

I can wrestle on standing arm bars against duds without breaking people's arms by the way. There is a trick to it.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This does not make sense to me.  Perhaps you missed the word "simultaneously."  Usually, attacks come in two counts:  jab, then cross, for example.  If I block the jab and counter on the same beat, the counter will land before the cross is launched and will be nullified.  Rarely does an attacker strike with both hands at the same time.  Even if he does, the worst case scenario is that one of his attacks will be blocked, and the other one will land the same time as mine.  I don't get how he has twice the chance to hit me.



Not if the jab is thrown with your head off line. 

Then you block the jab counter at air and are basically start doing that tennis thing where they are running from one side of the court to the other trying to catch up with the other person's shots. 

And I spar guys where i can't see their punches coming at speed.

Footwork, head movement  does not have to react to a punch to be effective. You can move away from where they will probably punch.

So automatically footwork takes care of some of their attacks. 

My guard automatically takes care of some of their attacks.

And then I only have to address consiously the rest. That is where I can block and strike simultaneously. Or whatever. 

The block and strike is kind of the last thing on this order of priorities for effective defense. 

I mean think of it this way. If I am in the streets and someone wants to punch me. Am I more likely to stop whatever random technique they throw if I block? 

Or am I more likely to stop that shot if they can't reach me?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The attack and counter thing has issues. So if I am blocking with one hand and striking with the other. And they are striking with both hands and blocking using footwork and timing then they have twice the opportunity to hit me.


I have difficulty to understand your logic here. Your blocking can interrupt your opponent's 2nd punch (cross).

For example,

- A throws a right jab.
- B blocks on A's right elbow joint and cause A's right arm to rotate to A's left.
- A's "body rotate to the left" can interrupt A's left cross (body rotate to the right).

IMO, an effective blocking can cause your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm. If you use your other free hand to punch him at the same time, since his arms are jammed, your one free hand will have the advantage.

In the following picture, the person on the right, his left punch can't punch out.






Same strategy (leading arm jam back arm) apply here.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The self defense I have engaged in have have been slobber knocker matches.  And so some training that vaguely reflects that gives me the best chance of being successful.
> 
> So the usual narrative is essentially inescapable.
> 
> ...



I truly appreciate your perspective and I can fully relate. I got pretty far in the circuit in my day. I get that there is a carnal nature to blood and guts training and that it has a value. To think that this kind of training can be sustained and is the only way is not only unwise, it is downright foolish.
It is your summary conclusion that every other kind of training is crap that rubs the wrong way. People like me who have 'been though the mill' cannot get in the ring any more. A lot of us cannot go nearly as hard in class as we once did. But that does not preclude us from training and learning quality technique that Is effective in a SD scenario. Yes, it has to be tested. I get it. But the greater value is in committing methods to memory so that our muscle memory  will kick in when needed. I feel like you think this statement is crap but it is not. 
We have a phrase in the south that really applies here: "want to". When a person loses their 'want to' , no matter what the situation/scenario is they are in trouble. Don't want to work? That is a problem. Don't want to increase your knowledge and skills to get ahead? That is a problem. Don't want to work your training to saturation? That is a problem. 

There is no 'one size fits all' style of training. For the majority of people, what you describe as training is temporal. A young mans game. What will you do when you either get broken up or aged?


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## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> To think that this kind of training can be sustained and is the only way is not only unwise, it is downright foolish.



No I am saying something different. I am saying that I constantly hear these tails of expertise from guys who don't have the fundamentals. 

Standing arm bars are a great example. So if you had good basic wrestling and striking you should do ok in MMA. 

Now without at least good fundamental wrestling concepts I don't see how you can get a standing arm bar to work. 

And I spent years trying without them.

People just don't just fall in to these positions. They fight you. 

But we have guys who will get simply dominated in tests of these fundamental tools essential to these techniques working. But then claiming that they are masters of some sort of system. 

It quite simply doesn't add up.


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No I am saying something different. I am saying that I constantly hear these tails of expertise from guys who don't have the fundamentals.
> 
> Standing arm bars are a great example. So if you had good basic wrestling and striking you should do ok in MMA.
> 
> ...



You have no idea what fundamentals I do or don't have.  You are so quick to point out where everyone else fails, or why nobody else is good enough.  Get over yourself.


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## wab25 (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> *Standing arm bars* are a great example. So if you had good basic wrestling and striking you should do ok in MMA.
> 
> Now without at least good fundamental wrestling concepts I don't see how you can get a *standing arm bar* to work.


What do you mean by "standing arm bar?" I have seen quite a few different things that could be considered a "standing arm bar," some I have been able to make work against full resistance, others not so much. But, it may be that we have a different definition of standing arm bar.


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

wab25 said:


> What do you mean by "standing arm bar?" I have seen quite a few different things that could be considered a "standing arm bar," some I have been able to make work against full resistance, others not so much. But, it may be that we have a different definition of standing arm bar.



It's a technique I've described to him that he didn't really understand, and so he's made it his personal mission lately to talk about how I don't know anything.  I've got him on ignore, so I don't usually see what he says, but the last few times I've clicked "show ignored content" I see him calling me out.  There was another thread where he said:

_"More consistent than say Skribs ever getting an arm bar to work in a fight."_

He's got some weird obsession with me lately.  It's times like this I'm glad I don't post my personal information on this site.


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## mrt2 (Mar 6, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.
> 
> ...


Some decent points here, and honestly, there is no solution to the problem. 

1. While most martial arts claim to help with self defense, few actually focus on self defense all the time.  To the extent that training even 2 or 3 times a week with improve a person's confidence and fitness, that alone is something as a confident and fit person is less likely to be a target than someone who is obviously not fit and lacks confidence.

2. Something is still better than nothing.  In my style of TKD, do study self defense, but either against a semi compliant partner, or against a heavy bag.  In theory, a side kick to the knee could or should buckle the knee and make an opponent  fall to the floor.  And a hook punch to the jaw or side of the head should be a knockout blow.  But can you land it when your opponent is moving, and you are stressed out?  You can't actually hit hard enough to damage a knee or break somebody's jaw, or nose, because it would be an insurance nightmare, and frankly, a lot of folks do MA for their health.  And it isn't good for your health to show up at work with broken ribs every other week.

That said, having something that might work is better than having nothing at all, so long as you are humble enough to realize something might or might not work.


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

mrt2 said:


> 2. Something is still better than nothing. In my style of TKD, do study self defense, but either against a semi compliant partner, or against a heavy bag. In theory, a side kick to the knee could or should buckle the knee and make an opponent fall to the floor. And a hook punch to the jaw or side of the head should be a knockout blow. But can you land it when your opponent is moving, and you are stressed out? You can't actually hit hard enough to damage a knee or break somebody's jaw, or nose, because it would be an insurance nightmare, and frankly, a lot of folks do MA for their health. And it isn't good for your health to show up at work with broken ribs every other week.



I think the thing is finding a balance between those dangerous techniques and sparring.  The MMA guys like to make fun of Krav and TMAs for suggesting things like "poke the eyes and kick the groin", but there's a reason those techniques are banned in competition - for player safety.

On the other hand, there are a lot of schools that don't spar, because "our techniques are too deadly to spar with".  They can't find a way to spar against each other without hurting each other, which is just as bad.

In my opinion, TKD falls a little bit flat in this regard, since the sparring ruleset is very limited and a lot of the other stuff isn't pressure tested.  But you still do learn a lot of distance control and timing in the sparring.  (Which is why I said "a little flat", because there's still a lot there).


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## mrt2 (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> I think the thing is finding a balance between those dangerous techniques and sparring.  The MMA guys like to make fun of Krav and TMAs for suggesting things like "poke the eyes and kick the groin", but there's a reason those techniques are banned in competition - for player safety.
> 
> On the other hand, there are a lot of schools that don't spar, because "our techniques are too deadly to spar with".  They can't find a way to spar against each other without hurting each other, which is just as bad.
> 
> In my opinion, TKD falls a little bit flat in this regard, since the sparring ruleset is very limited and a lot of the other stuff isn't pressure tested.  But you still do learn a lot of distance control and timing in the sparring.  (Which is why I said "a little flat", because there's still a lot there).


We do partner drills with the pads on, as well as partner drills with shields.  One of the assistant instructors has started to work specifically on self defense combinations focusing on hitting for power and instead of, for example, a roundhouse kick to the head (because in Sport TKD, a kick to the head is a point, where as a punch to the head is not allowed), maybe doing a low side kick followed by a punch combination to the face.


----------



## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

mrt2 said:


> We do partner drills with the pads on, as well as partner drills with shields.  One of the assistant instructors has started to work specifically on self defense combinations focusing on hitting for power and instead of, for example, a roundhouse kick to the head (because in Sport TKD, a kick to the head is a point, where as a punch to the head is not allowed), maybe doing a low side kick followed by a punch combination to the face.



And what do you do if they catch your leg, or those punches miss?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> You have no idea what fundamentals I do or don't have.  You are so quick to point out where everyone else fails, or why nobody else is good enough.  Get over yourself.



Ok then how good is your striking and wrestling?


----------



## mrt2 (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> And what do you do if they catch your leg, or those punches miss?


I guess you get your butt kicked, or worse.


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## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok then how good is your striking and wrestling?



I'm not engaging in this discussion with you again.  I have you on ignore.  Please leave me out of your posts.  If I'm not engaged with you in the conversation, there's no reason to keep bringing me up.  What you're doing now is the equivalent of spreading rumors and talking about someone behind their back.  It's more examples of your toxicity and why I put you on ignore in the first place.



mrt2 said:


> I guess you get your butt kicked, or worse.



That's my point.  You have these rote drills you know, but you don't know what to do when those drills don't work.  And that's the point in the OP.  A Muay Thai fighter or MMA fighter will know what to do when their combination fails or gets countered, because they're training not just the techniques themselves, but how to adapt if their technique fails.  In Taekwondo, you most often do that with the kicking game, but you don't do that if your kicks get grabbed.

It's a problem that plagues most arts.  If you train only Muay Thai, you probably don't have much groundfighting.  If you train only wrestling, how are you going to deal with a punch or a knee?  If you only train in boxing, what are you going to do when you get kicked or wrapped up?  These arts deal with it by cross-training and taking MMA classes.

In Taekwondo, you learn a punch defense as a block, grab the arm, throw a strike, and sweep the leg to shove them down.  This is a good combo, but what if you can't grab the arm?  What if they block your strike, or use a handgrab defense on you?  What if the step over the sweep?  In the way TKD is often done, there isn't an answer.  Can you throw the sweep?  In most cases, yes.  But you can't execute the sweep on someone who is prepared for it.  Some schools account for this in their training, but from what I've read it isn't very common.

Compare this to my Hapkido experience, which is much more about feeling the resistance of your opponent and selecting a technique based on that resistance.  If we fail in one direction we can succeed in another.  If we expect our opponent to fall one way, and he falls a different way, we're trained how to adjust and select a different controlling or finishing move.  

If your training is "here is the combination, if it fails, you'll get your butt kicked" then your training is insufficient.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> And what do you do if they catch your leg?


- Stick your leg into your opponent's groin.
- Control his shoulders.
- Try to block his right leg, sweep his left leg, or drag him down when he shifts weight.

Of course when your opponent uses his arms to grab on your leg, you can punch on his head.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

N


skribs said:


> I'm not engaging in this discussion with you again. I have you on ignore. Please leave me out of your posts. If I'm not engaged with you in the conversation, there's no reason to keep bringing me up. What you're doing now is the equivalent of spreading rumors and talking about someone behind their back. It's more examples of your toxicity and why I put you on ignore in the first place.



Yeah. Your system works but nobody can see it, you can't properly train it and don't ask about it.

And if i do ask I am being mean.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2020)

What do you guys think about these kind of comment?

- If you care about fighting, go buy yourself a gun.
- MA is much more than just fighting, MA can help you to achieve self-cultivation (can someone be able to explain what self-cultivation mean?), inner peace, culture enhancement, ...
- Doing Taiji a day, keep the fighting away.
- If you can achieve no-fighting, you don't need fighting.
- If you kill yourself, nobody can kill you. 
- ...


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

wab25 said:


> What do you mean by "standing arm bar?" I have seen quite a few different things that could be considered a "standing arm bar," some I have been able to make work against full resistance, others not so much. But, it may be that we have a different definition of standing arm bar.



In Skribs case they were arm bars he couldn't actually train without breaking people's arms.

Or not. We don't know because we also can't see them.

But they are a fundamental linchpin for his system of winning fights.

Mabye they were unicorn arm bars.

All of which is academic because if you can't wrestle you are not getting an arm bar on any time soon anyway.

So the point is kind of like this.





These guys might have great or terrible jujitsu. We don't know because they are missing fundamental concepts that will get them in to a position to try it.


----------



## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you guys think about these kind of comment?
> 
> - If you care about fighting, go buy yourself a gun.
> - MA is much more than just fighting, MA can help you to achieve self-cultivation (can someone be able to explain what self-cultivation mean?), inner peace, culture enhancement, ...
> ...




True - guns are an equalizer.  
Also true
Maybe?
Not true.  Sometimes you have no other choice.
Morbid


----------



## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> In Skribs case they were arm bars he couldn't actually train without breaking people's arms.
> 
> Or not. We don't know because we also can't see them.
> 
> But they are a fundamental linchpin for his system of winning fights.



I never said they were a fundamental linchpin for my system of winning fights.  They're just one technique in my arsenal.

I also never said I couldn't train them without breaking people's arms.  I said that if I gave them a chance to tap, they could escape during that pause.

Are you purposefully lying about what I said to make me look worse?  The only alternative I can think of is that you lack the basic reading comprehension to understand what I said.  But I don't want to insult your intelligence or your character, so I'd rather you just leave me alone so I can do the same.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> I never said they were a fundamental linchpin for my system of winning fights.  They're just one technique in my arsenal.
> 
> I also never said I couldn't train them without breaking people's arms.  I said that if I gave them a chance to tap, they could escape during that pause.
> 
> Are you purposefully lying about what I said to make me look worse?  The only alternative I can think of is that you lack the basic reading comprehension to understand what I said.  But I don't want to insult your intelligence or your character, so I'd rather you just leave me alone so I can do the same.



You assume that if you hide all the support for what you say I can't make a conclusion that you are not being honest. 

But the fact you are hiding any support draws the conclusion you are not being honest. 

E.g..
I am the best singer in the world I just can't do it right now. 

We can conclude that I am probably not the best singer in the world. 

This prevents me from running around believing in fairies and standing arm bars.

This is also very important when determining why most martial arts don't work in self defense. Because that way I can at least determine who is telling the truth without having to spend a bunch of time in the system.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> I never said they were a fundamental linchpin for my system of winning fights. They're just one technique in my arsenal.



I thought this was why what you train doesn't work in MMA. Because your system relies so heavily on techniques that are banned in competition. 

I would have described that as a linchpin. 

I also think the argument is purposefully lying. Because to get those arm bars you need a good grasp of fundamental wrestling. 

If you have a good grasp of wrestling fundamentals your system would work in MMA. 

See it all ties together.


----------



## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

Edited post: @drop bear there's nothing good that's going to come from us arguing.  Please just leave me alone.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The self defense I have engaged in have have been slobber knocker matches.  And so some training that vaguely reflects that gives me the best chance of being successful.
> 
> So the usual narrative is essentially inescapable.
> 
> ...


Except for when you make uninformed claims about others, then try to make it their obligation to disprove them. Then your ability to contribute is severely limited by your tactics.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have difficulty to understand your logic here. Your blocking can interrupt your opponent's 2nd punch (cross).
> 
> For example,
> 
> ...


In my experience, compact punchers negate that principle much of the time. Untrained and inexperienced folks rarely do.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I thought this was why what you train doesn't work in MMA. Because your system relies so heavily on techniques that are banned in competition.
> 
> I would have described that as a linchpin.
> 
> ...


There’s a difference between something that can work in MMA, and an effective MMA training approach. Much of what I teach does work in MMA on a regular basis. But my training methods (my system) aren’t appropriate for training to that context. It has other goals that make it less efficient to that purpose.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Now without at least good fundamental wrestling concepts I don't see how you can get a standing arm bar to work.


Agreed 100%. And with those fundamentals, the arm bar becomes so much more than an arm bar.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you guys think about these kind of comment?
> 
> - If you care about fighting, go buy yourself a gun.
> - MA is much more than just fighting, MA can help you to achieve self-cultivation (can someone be able to explain what self-cultivation mean?), inner peace, culture enhancement, ...
> ...


1. I’m not a fan of any absolute statements. There are many reasons not to get a gun. 
2,3,4. Yes. Part of the objective of MA training can be to avoid those situations via self-management. 
5. Well...yes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> But the fact you are hiding any support draws the conclusion you are not being honest.



This is a fairly weasely tactic. You are asserting a positive action (active hiding) which you know isn’t present. Failing to entertain your blind assertion isn’t the same as concealing information.


----------



## Buka (Mar 6, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you guys think about these kind of comment?
> 
> - If you care about fighting, go buy yourself a gun.
> - MA is much more than just fighting, MA can help you to achieve self-cultivation (can someone be able to explain what self-cultivation mean?), inner peace, culture enhancement, ...
> ...



Buy a gun has nothing to do with fighting, gun-fighting has everything to do with fighting.

I don't know what self-cultivation is. Is that like growing your own?

Doing Taiji a day, keep the fighting away.....I don't know what that means.

If you can achieve no fighting, you don't need fighting. True, I suppose, but you can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone.

If you kill yourself, nobody can kill you.
Ask a married man about that.

Martial Arts around here seems to have gone in a direction where people who don't care what the other guys is doing, care that the other guy should know that, and change that, to what they're doing so he can care in a different way?

People who don't talk to each other around here seem to talk more to each other in order to tell them they don't talk to them any more.

And why complicate fighting? It's really not that complicated. All you gotta' do is fight.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 6, 2020)

Buka said:


> And why complicate fighting? It's really not that complicated. All you gotta' do is fight.


Agree with you 100% on this.

I still remember the following discussion many years ago.

A: What's your MA style?
B: My MA style is the style that can beat the bad guy to the point that his own mother won't be able to recognize him.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> This is a fairly weasely tactic. You are asserting a positive action (active hiding) which you know isn’t present. Failing to entertain your blind assertion isn’t the same as concealing information.



Of course he is actively hiding and of course that is a weasely tactic. I mean seriously. 

I asked to see something working.

He said no doesn't want to. 

That is actively hiding. 


If I sold you a product but refused to show a photo or let you look at it or know what is in it. And assumption that I am ripping you off is not unreasonable. 

Or instead we can all make statements we don't have to back so I can say Skribs's arm bars don't work based on as much evidence as he is saying they do. And people can stop complaining about it. 

But this inconsistent idea that one person can make any claim he wants and the other has to back up a claim is the unreasonable stance.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There’s a difference between something that can work in MMA, and an effective MMA training approach. Much of what I teach does work in MMA on a regular basis. But my training methods (my system) aren’t appropriate for training to that context. It has other goals that make it less efficient to that purpose.



Much of what you teach works in MMA? or are we looking at similar techniques that other people teach.

But it doesn't matter if you train for MMA or not. Swimmers don't train for MMA. But there are ways to determine if swimming training works. We can put people in a pool make them swim and see who swims longer or faster or whatever.

You train to achieve something and there should be evidence that it is making people better at whatever that thing is.

Self defense for some insane reason doesn't seem to need that.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> You have no idea what fundamentals I do or don't have.  You are so quick to point out where everyone else fails, or why nobody else is good enough.  Get over yourself.



Who said this though?

"My big issue is that he gives people advice, and does it with the confidence of someone who knows what he's talking about. Someone like you or me can see right through it, but someone who is new to martial arts may actually believe him. And as others have pointed out, some of his ideas are dangerous."


----------



## drop bear (Mar 6, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you guys think about these kind of comment?
> 
> - If you care about fighting, go buy yourself a gun.
> - MA is much more than just fighting, MA can help you to achieve self-cultivation (can someone be able to explain what self-cultivation mean?), inner peace, culture enhancement, ...
> ...



The gun one is interesting. Technically a gun is the best form of self defence. Yet when we ask people how many fights they have been in to how many times they have shot a guy.

It is almost always more fights than shootings. 

If you have shot nobody but been in ten fights then fighting was more useful than gun carrying.


----------



## skribs (Mar 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Who said this though?
> 
> "My big issue is that he gives people advice, and does it with the confidence of someone who knows what he's talking about. Someone like you or me can see right through it, but someone who is new to martial arts may actually believe him. And as others have pointed out, some of his ideas are dangerous."



He doesn't train at all and refuses to train.  Big difference.



drop bear said:


> Of course he is actively hiding and of course that is a weasely tactic. I mean seriously.



I'm not hiding.  Whenever I've had this type of conversation with you, you reject everything that isn't MMA.  If I say I have striking fundamentals from Taekwondo and Hapkido, you'll just say "no, you don't know anything because you don't take Muay Thai and wrestling."  That's why I put you on ignore.  Because you say things like that.  You said I'll never know how to use a jab because I'm not boxer.  You've said other people don't know how to do the same throws that are used in MMA if they learn them in other martial arts, because in your mind if you don't train it in MMA you don't actually know anything.

You started this with personal attacks against me.  You have no proof that I don't have the foundations in striking or grappling.  You have no reason to know what I do or don't know.  You've never fought me.  You've never seen me fight.  Yet you make these accusations against me (which are uncalled for, because I haven't even been talking to you in this thread or the other).  You specifically singled me out as the person who "couldn't do an armbar."  How do you know I can't do an armbar?  Because I don't take BJJ?  Because I've never fought an MMA match?  Because you've never seen me do an armbar?

You demanded I prove to you something you would not accept, all so you can have the excuse to call me out for no reason.  You put me on the defensive right from the start, and demand I provide with information that you're never going to accept anyway.  The only thing that come from this is that you personally feel vindicated, but you end up looking like a jerk.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Mar 7, 2020)

Re:  drop bear and anyone who engages him - sometimes the effort of combat is not worth the victory.  Disengagement is sometimes the best strategy.  There are better things to discuss on this forum, like zombies and corona virus


----------



## skribs (Mar 7, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Re:  drop bear and anyone who engages him - sometimes the effort of combat is not worth the victory.  Disengagement is sometimes the best strategy.  There are better things to discuss on this forum, like zombies and corona virus



I agree, which is why I put him on ignore and was trying to disengage.  But he's calling me out in random threads that I'm not even talking to him in.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2020)

skribs said:


> I agree, which is why I put him on ignore and was trying to disengage.  But he's calling me out in random threads that I'm not even talking to him in.


@skribs, put him on ignore and don’t ever take him off.  Don’t look at his posts, ever, for any reason.  

If you feel he is stalking you, report him.  If his actions merit, he can be removed from these forums.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2020)

skribs said:


> He doesn't train at all and refuses to train.  Big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you want to make any claim you want without proof but I can't. Is that it?

And then use the fact you don't back up what you say as a shield against critique.

And then critique other posters for the same reason I critique you. 

Ok this quote.
"I'm not hiding.  Whenever I've had this type of conversation with you, you reject everything that isn't MMA.  If I say I have striking fundamentals from Taekwondo and Hapkido, you'll just say "no, you don't know anything because you don't take Muay Thai and wrestling."  That's why I put you on ignore.  Because you say things like that.  You said I'll never know how to use a jab because I'm not boxer.  You've said other people don't know how to do the same throws"

Sorry but this is a lie that you have accused me of a few times. And i would like to address it. 

To provide evidence that your arm bars or throws or whatever works you would need to show them performed against some sort of semi decent guy who is fighting back. 

This could be boxing Or wrestling or MMA or it could be something else that doesn't look fake. 

Striking fundamentals from TKD do work in MMA. There is like a dozen tkders in the UFC. And if i can see it I can accept it. 

There is no excuse to make the label of self defence as valid as say pamistry or tarot cards. There really isn't. People pay good money and are expecting this to potentially save them from assult. 

So when you are promoting systems that nobody can see and that are based on hope. You are creating an environment that leads to abuse. 

Leave this dogma to the religious types. Make martial arts practical. 

Then you would find the conversation changes and everyone wins.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Much of what you teach works in MMA? or are we looking at similar techniques that other people teach.
> 
> But it doesn't matter if you train for MMA or not. Swimmers don't train for MMA. But there are ways to determine if swimming training works. We can put people in a pool make them swim and see who swims longer or faster or whatever.
> 
> ...


For someone who doesn’t like the term “self defense” when others use it, you certainly like to use it to categorize others’ training without knowledge of that training. You stereotype in the worst way, then use confirmation bias and weasely “logic” to back up your claims. 

Much of what I teach works in MMA, because it’s the same stuff that’s basic in a lot of places. Good basic grappling works, good basic striking works. You just don’t like the name of the system and the stated primary purpose of the training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 7, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Re:  drop bear and anyone who engages him - sometimes the effort of combat is not worth the victory.  Disengagement is sometimes the best strategy.  There are better things to discuss on this forum, like zombies and corona virus


While true, why miss the fun?


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 7, 2020)

drop bear said:


> So you want to make any claim you want without proof but I can't. Is that it?




That's correct and you'll be called a bully as well as insulted.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 7, 2020)

drop bear said:


> But this inconsistent idea that one person can make any claim he wants and the other has to back up a claim is the unreasonable stance.



It does not feel like anyone is asking you to support their claims. Most people are just asking for a more open mind. 

Youtube is great for getting information on things you do not know. I have learned over time that I have to watch at least 6-8 videos of the same topic to really get an accurate understanding. Close to 1/2 will be flat out wrong or done in a very odd/hard fashion. 
I see your constant request for video of technique being little different. If you are shown slow, step by step motion of a technique you will call BS. If you watch 6-8 videos of the same technique, at speed, you will correctly call 1/2 of them BS. EVEN it is a technique you already have high confidence in. 

So what is the point of the exercise? This is most definitely a 'agree to disagree' moment and move on. 

As far as certain posters are concerned, I get it. They can be trying. But it does you, this forum, or them no good to berate them, even if they fully deserve it (yes I have been guilty of this). If you are like me, it is mostly in an effort to 'steer' or help the poster(s) see a topic from a broader/higher viewpoint. Speaking to myself as well here but using a little tact is in order when doing so.


----------



## skribs (Mar 7, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> @skribs, put him on ignore and don’t ever take him off.  Don’t look at his posts, ever, for any reason.
> 
> If you feel he is stalking you, report him.  If his actions merit, he can be removed from these forums.



I am going to follow this advice.  If I do happen to see any more posts targeting me for no reason, I will simply report them and not engage him anymore.


----------



## skribs (Mar 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It does not feel like anyone is asking you to support their claims. Most people are just asking for a more open mind.



This.  So much this.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> For someone who doesn’t like the term “self defense” when others use it, you certainly like to use it to categorize others’ training without knowledge of that training. You stereotype in the worst way, then use confirmation bias and weasely “logic” to back up your claims.
> 
> Much of what I teach works in MMA, because it’s the same stuff that’s basic in a lot of places. Good basic grappling works, good basic striking works. You just don’t like the name of the system and the stated primary purpose of the training.



Yeah. When people can't show results from training they won't be specific about I assume they are being dishonest. It is basically the too deadly to spar argument. 

See when you say much of what you teach works in MMA.  We could assume you teach people who do MMA and what you teach works.

Or it could be you teach punches. MMA uses punches so what you teach is what works in MMA. 

But they are two completely different things and we will never know which it is because being deliberately obscure is ok. 

Good grappling/Striking works but bad grappling/Striking doesn't. And again you could be doing either. Nobody really knows. 

So if Mabye good mabye bad training, let's just roll the dice and hope,  is the standard. Then self defense training as a whole can be looked on as suspect. Like any product with bad quality control. You get enough lemons you start doubting the whole process. 

Add to that people being super cagey about whether their training works at all and you have a suspect product. 

But the biggest issue is you also create a culture that advantages the scammers. There is only so much fact to compete with infinite fantasy and without any way to tell the difference. Fantasy is always going to look better. 

Why struggle with one guy when you can fight ten with ease? 

And so when Rat finally starts his own system and yourself and him stand on equal footing as self defense instructors just remember that this idea that nobody needs to be accountable is the vehicle that will allow him to do it.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It does not feel like anyone is asking you to support their claims. Most people are just asking for a more open mind.
> 
> Youtube is great for getting information on things you do not know. I have learned over time that I have to watch at least 6-8 videos of the same topic to really get an accurate understanding. Close to 1/2 will be flat out wrong or done in a very odd/hard fashion.
> I see your constant request for video of technique being little different. If you are shown slow, step by step motion of a technique you will call BS. If you watch 6-8 videos of the same technique, at speed, you will correctly call 1/2 of them BS. EVEN it is a technique you already have high confidence in.
> ...



Yeah. I get that I am being mean. And honestly it is only the worst of the worst comments that are basically straight up fantasy that set me off. 

But in my defense you know what doesn't work in Hapkido?

Standing arm bars.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Except for when you make uninformed claims about others, then try to make it their obligation to disprove them. Then your ability to contribute is severely limited by your tactics.



Well not really. You see if making vague unsupportable claims about ourselves is reasonable. Then my claims may not be uninformed. How would you know? I could be a Hapkido black belt and am speaking from experience. I may have taught Skribs those arm bars.

I mean this is how dishonest a tactic this is.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 7, 2020)

drop bear said:


> you say much of what you teach works in MMA.


If a technique has never been used in MMA, we may assume it must be a bad technique. That technique may be used in MMA sometime in the future and that day just hasn't come yet.

Will someone be able to figure out "knee strike, single leg" in MMA sometime in the future? I think it will happen.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 7, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a technique has never been used in MMA, we may assume it must be a bad technique. That technique may be used in MMA sometime in the future and that day just hasn't come yet.
> 
> Will someone be able to figure out "knee strike, single leg" in MMA sometime in the future? I think it will happen.



It is more along the lines of someone teaches a method that works to whatever level they made it work.

So if say someone teaches that throw to a bunch of guys and they use it in MMA then we can draw a line between that instruction and that result. 

But if you teach a double leg. A throw that is commonly used in MMA but nobody *you* teach does that throw in MMA. Then you might be teaching a crappy throw. 

Imagine boxersise saying that they teach techniques that work in boxing. I mean they do but they also don't. 

Now the way to tell the difference would be to either look at the results or look at the training. 

Or in this case not. Because apparently we can hide those two crucial pieces of information. This is also a pretty unique stance in that I cannot imagine any other situation where someone would be believed at this point.


----------



## Bruce7 (Mar 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> This is a good point to further divide the purpose of MA's practice for some people.
> TMA with hard contact and emphasis
> Sport MA
> MA done more as healthful exercise only. No desire or intent for hard contact or competition.
> ...



Your post got me to thinking. 
A young man who has been in a lot of fights may be able to use his training in a fight better than someone who has never been in a fight.
Learning MA from a good teacher made me a much better fighter.
Had I not developed the ability to ignor pain and be focus on hurting the other guy, MA may not had helped as much in a fight.
When I got a family I did not want to fight, my focus was on enjoying my family. 
If you stay out of bar and do'nt look for fights, it is unlikely you will need to be able to fight.
IMO MA is bout developing your mind and body not learning to fight.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 7, 2020)

drop bear said:


> So if say someone teaches that throw to a bunch of guys and they use it in MMA then we can draw a line between that instruction and that result.


Here is another technique that's not used in MMA. IMO, it's the throw that's difficult to counter it.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is another technique that's not used in MMA. IMO, it's the throw that's difficult to counter it.



There was a little known MMA fighter who did use that.






And there are plenty of judoesk leg attacks that get used.

Now just because Rhonda Rousey and judo experts successfully hit those throws doesn't mean I can or teach others to.

There has to be this continual line of competence. Or the technique for all practical purposes doesn't work.

And this is an important factor to why self defense doesn't work. Because it doesn't matter who else can hit that throw. If I can't and try it I will get my head kicked in.

So what happens is you get a system the IDF uses that is taught by a guy who has never had a fight to soccer mums. And suddenly self defense doesn't work.

Without the accountability that I have been pushing the whole thread you create a broken system. And this is regardless of the system in question.

There really are non negotiable methods to teaching successful martial arts skills.

You wind up with this. which is why nobody wants to show their training.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

Bruce7 said:


> Your post got me to thinking.
> A young man who has been in a lot of fights may be able to use his training in a fight better than someone who has never been in a fight.
> Learning MA from a good teacher made me a much better fighter.
> Had I not developed the ability to ignor pain and be focus on hurting the other guy, MA may not had helped as much in a fight.
> ...








This subject gets covered in the first 20 seconds or so.

Otherwise look up Nietzsche


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a technique has never been used in MMA, we may assume it must be a bad technique. That technique may be used in MMA sometime in the future and that day just hasn't come yet.
> 
> Will someone be able to figure out "knee strike, single leg" in MMA sometime in the future? I think it will happen.



And there is a Thai sweep that works like that.

Ok. So to make a very important separate point because I don't think people recognize this issue.






I did this sort of martial arts training for a long while. And it retarded my fighting ability even though I was apparently advancing in technical skill.

It is just not close enough to the shape or pace of fighting to give me the tools to properly address fighting.

Fighting back changes the mechanics of a technique. Things like timing which isn't that important because you know how a person is going to react. Suddenly become vital when you are trying to read how a person is going to react.

And the techniques done in that manner become almost impossible to pull off.

That overhand right that you could counter block and strike easily when added with uncertainty a real threat of injury and pace pressure and intent becomes very hard to counter.

And so what happened was I would step in a ring with some guy with six months training and not be able to counter what should be some really sloppy boxing.

Suddenly when I was made accountable for my martial arts I was forced to change my outlook on martial arts.

And that is a common story.





That martial arts instructor was almost garunteed to have trained to counter loopy hooks. Probably had done for years. Yet in this case he couldn't.


----------



## jobo (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And there is a Thai sweep that works like that.
> 
> Ok. So to make a very important separate point because I don't think people recognize this issue.
> 
> ...


all the points you make are valid, but your taking them all to far.

all tma work, they do, at least all the ones ive done do, which is a reasonable cross section, but then i could hold my own in fights with most people with out them, so they were added value of improved technque.

bouncers get beaten up on a fairly regular basis, if they end up in a fight with even numbers and hardly at all if they out number you five to one, which is generaly the case, hell ive beaten a few of them myself as a young man, if they made the mistake of trying to pulp me one on one.

people who are selling  self defence that doesnt include a considerable amount of physical conditioning are almost cetainly misrepresenting the effectivness of what they are selling, because '' fighting'' is first and foremost an athletic activerty, and there is a very good chance the fittest will win, if not immediaetly through brute strengh then shortly after through attricion

or to put it more simply, all these technuques will work if you have the physicality to make them and to stick around long enough for them to and non will work if you dont

putting up vids of hulking profesional mma fighter v skinny TC masters doesnt alter that. theres a fair chance he would have done much the same to a less able MMA student, which would then have proved precisly nothing, but the better man won


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

jobo said:


> all the points you make are valid, but your taking them all to far.
> 
> all tma work, they do, at least all the ones ive done do, which is a reasonable cross section, but then i could hold my own in fights with most people with out them, so they were added value of improved technque.
> 
> ...



Physicality is definitely a factor. And as a trained skill physicality is a martial technique. 

It is not whether you get beaten by the better man it is if you figure out why.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a technique has never been used in MMA, we may assume it must be a bad technique.


I would never make that assumption.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There has to be this continual line of competence. Or the technique for all practical purposes doesn't work.
> I have read No one arguing against the statement.
> 
> And this is an important factor to why self defense doesn't work. Because it doesn't matter who else can hit that throw. If I can't and try it I will get my head kicked in.


Possibly this is part of your rub. It is apparent you summarily take the approach that if You cannot get a technique to work it must be crap. Believe it or not, you will find this occurrence in every walk of your life. 
There are techniques that I can no longer do as well as I once did. Some I would say I was never very good at. But I know they have value and see other people perform them quite well. Why should I not continue to teach them?



drop bear said:


> Now just because Rhonda Rousey and judo experts successfully hit those throws doesn't mean I can or teach others to.


Now you are just contradicting yourself.



drop bear said:


> Without the accountability that I have been pushing the whole thread you create a broken system


Everybody is in agreement with this statement. Have been the whole thread. But you keep moving the target making 'accountability' unreachable no mater what the method/process is. Argument for the sake of argument.



drop bear said:


> There really are non negotiable methods to teaching successful martial arts skills.


Again, nobody is in disagreement with this statement.
You seem to use video like it is your bible. The outliers (the fact that they exist) have to be factored in. When the medium used for sampling is composed of largely outliers, how can the sampling be any where near correct?


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Physicality is definitely a factor. And as a trained skill physicality is a martial technique.
> 
> It is not whether you get beaten by the better man it is if you figure out why.


I cannot agree with that. In my experience the word physicality is the 'want to' I referred to in a previous post. It is an innate trait. You have it or you do not. It is not necessarily the 'bigger, faster, stronger' person. It is the guy who keeps digging and coming back for more. 

phys·i·cal·i·ty
/ˌfizəˈkalədē/
_noun_
noun: *physicality*

the fact of relating to the body as opposed to the mind; physical presence.
"there's an emphasis on the physicality of the actors"
involvement of a lot of bodily contact or activity.
"the intense physicality of a dancer's life"


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Possibly this is part of your rub. It is apparent you summarily take the approach that if You cannot get a technique to work it must be crap. Believe it or not, you will find this occurrence in every walk of your life.
> There are techniques that I can no longer do as well as I once did. Some I would say I was never very good at. But I know they have value and see other people perform them quite well. Why should I not continue to teach them?
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. The reason I use video like a bible is because people are being very sneaky about the way they describe things. So that it sounds like they are doing one thing but are in reality doing another. 

It is used in political speeches and marketing a lot as well. And it lets people back out of a statement by claiming you didn't understand it. 

And it is very martial arts because because of this culture of mysterious masters giving out this wisdom to hopeful aspirants leads to this dogmatic thinking that doesn't question authority.

Now there is this little habit of martial arts instructors teaching things they have no idea about. So a double leg is very common in MMA and teaching defense to that technique makes sense.


So we can make a claim that a teacher teaches defense to double legs in his school. And based on nothing else we might assume he does that. He might assume he does that.

Then we look at the video.





So is this guy teaching what works in MMA?

Or is he teaching what doesn't work pretty much anywhere. 

Even though these are moves that are incredibly successful if the instructor can't do them. He has broken that continuous link of continuity. And has created moves that are not successful. 

They have removed accountability.

And this becomes a factor in why martial arts doesn't work.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot agree with that. In my experience the word physicality is the 'want to' I referred to in a previous post. It is an innate trait. You have it or you do not. It is not necessarily the 'bigger, faster, stronger' person. It is the guy who keeps digging and coming back for more.
> 
> phys·i·cal·i·ty
> /ˌfizəˈkalədē/
> ...



If you run you will get fitter.
If you lift heavy things you will get stronger
If you eat less food you will loose weight. 

You may never gain talent. 

Physicality is one of the guaranteed results from training.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Everybody is in agreement with this statement. Have been the whole thread. But you keep moving the target making 'accountability' unreachable no mater what the method/process is. Argument for the sake of argument.



Show me where I have changed my standard on accountability?

People have accused me of this but they are not telling the truth.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Again, nobody is in disagreement with this statement.
> You seem to use video like it is your bible. The outliers (the fact that they exist) have to be factored in. When the medium used for sampling is composed of largely outliers, how can the sampling be any where near correct?



People really are in disagreement this is because suffering doesn't pay the bills. Reward for less effort does.

So self defense for example becomes something that can be taught in two weeks. This isn't results based. We can't say in two weeks they are ready to fight off a rapist.

This is based on availability. The customer may only have two weeks that they are prepared to train.

In two weeks their martial arts doesn't work in self defense.

Another factor.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Show me where I have changed my standard on accountability?
> 
> People have accused me of this but they are not telling the truth.





drop bear said:


> Now just because Rhonda Rousey and judo experts successfully hit those throws doesn't mean I can or teach others to.


After I watched the UFC fight last night between  Zhang Weili and Joanna Jedrzejczyk, by using your logic, since throwing art was not effective last night, should I give up my throwing art and only work on face punching?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> After I watched the UFC fight last night between  Zhang Weili and Joanna Jedrzejczyk, by using your logic, since throwing art was not effective last night, should I give up my throwing art and only work on face punching?



You wouldn't be using my logic because I would be looking at consistency over time.

I imagine your logic would be closer to when a martial art is justified by using it once on some random street fight.

I would though suggest from watching that one fight that you stay the hell away from fighting either of those two.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 8, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The guy who wrote that nonsense: f**k him.


I read this and my jaw dropped lol


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 8, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I read this and my jaw dropped lol


In a good way, or a bad way?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> If you run you will get fitter.
> If you lift heavy things you will get stronger
> If you eat less food you will loose weight.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything except one part. It’s not guaranteed. You have to work for it. Hard. Some folks train diligently, but at low intensity. They are not guaranteed to gain physicality.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> If you run you will get fitter.
> If you lift heavy things you will get stronger
> If you eat less food you will loose weight.
> 
> ...


Agree with lines 1-4. But a person either has physicality or they do not. It can be enhanced but naturally created. 
Now steroids and such are a different story.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And it is very martial arts because because of this culture of mysterious masters giving out this wisdom to hopeful aspirants leads to this dogmatic thinking that doesn't question authority.


You know, you are only about 2 decades with this statement. 
I'm tapping out.


----------



## Buka (Mar 8, 2020)

I feel bad for anyone who’s Martial training didn’t help them in a self defense situation.

I don’t really know anyone that went through that particular scenario, but I feel bad for anyone who did.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I agree with everything except one part. It’s not guaranteed. You have to work for it. Hard. Some folks train diligently, but at low intensity. They are not guaranteed to gain physicality.



Ok. This brings up another very important point. And it overflows to martial arts.

Your body does not respond to rationalization. You can't make deals with it. If you are trying to loose weight and your cat dies. Your body does not give you a day pass to eat chocolate. 

It is what I have mentioned as these basically non negotiable elements to training. 

So yes if you train diligently but without intensity you will not get as good a result. 

And with martial arts if you train diligently but without intensity you will not get as good a result. 

When I say there is one method this is exactly my point. 

And it is not my fault. It is not because I am mean. I would love to turn up to class once a week and be able to subdue a room full of footballers with standing arm bars. But evidence has shown me that I can't.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

Buka said:


> I feel bad for anyone who’s Martial training didn’t help them in a self defense situation.
> 
> I don’t really know anyone that went through that particular scenario, but I feel bad for anyone who did.



It is not uncommon for people to have the wake up call.


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## drop bear (Mar 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You know, you are only about 2 decades with this statement.
> I'm tapping out.



Self defense is notorious for a "this is what happens in the street" statement.

And therefore this is why whatever training doesn't work and mine does.

And people eat that up without ever thinking about what was said. From the Gracies 90% of fighting goes to the ground to fighting on the ground gets you sucker punched by multiples.

People are literally picking these stories out of thin air and spouting them as truth.

I mean let's take this really popular statement.

"This has been tested on the battlefield for centuries"

It is quite simply a statement that means nothing. We don't know who tested it or on who or how effective it was or how it could have been done better.

But people say it and just sort of nod to themselves as if they actually said anything. When they haven't.

It is literally this conversation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> "This has been tested on the battlefield for centuries"


When people say that, they are talking about "weapon fight" and not open hand fight.






When I swing my stick, I don't care whether if you are Maham Ali or Mike Tyson, you better move out of my way.


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## Buka (Mar 8, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It is not uncommon for people to have the wake up call.



I know all too well. Heard my wake up call as a young man. One hell of a beating a bunch of us got. Changed everything we did from that point forward. It was a long road....but a really great road.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 9, 2020)

@drop bear semi related question to what you've been arguing. Basically your argument is that if something X teaches works for the street, the proof is that it works in competition, right?

So let's take me. I trained under professional kickboxers. They taught me with the assumption that I would be engaging in competition, just as they did. But my first 3 fights fell through, then I had concerns about CTE so I never competed. I learned from people who did prove that what they did and taught worked, so if I were to teach what they taught me/what I trained, despite never being in a formal competition, 

1. would you consider what I taught valid or invalid? 

If you'd consider it valid, let's say I taught my future son how to fight, using the techniques taught to me. However, he also never competed. 

2. Would he be able to teach, despite the techniques that I taught him that were taught to me were used in the ring by professional kickboxers? Or would you argue telephone rules and discount his teachings? 

3. What if he used what I taught him in the ring, and one some fights? 

4. What if he used what i taught him in the ring and lost some fights?

Now let's say you knew some additional information about me. I have been in many fights-in the double digits but I'm not sure the exact number. Of those, at least one trained in kempo, idk about the rest. I won all of them. Even though I had never been in a ring fight, would that give me the ability to teach others for self defense? At 10+ fights, I feel like that would develop consistency for self defense, but I don't think I used the same moves in any of those fights for consistency of those moves.

5.  With the knowledge that I've been in that many street fights, and won them all, would you consider what I taught valid? And would that change your answers to 2-4?


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## drop bear (Mar 9, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> @drop bear semi related question to what you've been arguing. Basically your argument is that if something X teaches works for the street, the proof is that it works in competition, right?
> 
> So let's take me. I trained under professional kickboxers. They taught me with the assumption that I would be engaging in competition, just as they did. But my first 3 fights fell through, then I had concerns about CTE so I never competed. I learned from people who did prove that what they did and taught worked, so if I were to teach what they taught me/what I trained, despite never being in a formal competition,
> 
> ...



You are over cooking it.

Just make it work somewhere consistently and be able to show that.

This at the very least separates you from people who cannot show their technique working anywhere.

I would be happy at this point with some quality sparring success to be honest.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Self defense is notorious for a "this is what happens in the street" statement.
> 
> And therefore this is why whatever training doesn't work and mine does.
> 
> ...


True enough. But this is literally what you have been doing the whole thread.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. This brings up another very important point. And it overflows to martial arts.
> 
> Your body does not respond to rationalization. You can't make deals with it. If you are trying to loose weight and your cat dies. Your body does not give you a day pass to eat chocolate.
> 
> ...



Yeah, now you fell off the cliff and now you are just sounding absolutely silly. 

I am going to take a swing at your rationalization comment.
When I went through the trials it was a three day event. On the second day, I made a bad move, exposed my ribs and stepped into a spinning side kick. While I did not know it at the time, it fully broke one rib and cracked another, and this was while wearing a chest protector (so yea, those wimpy TKD kicks are pretty hard). The pain was tremendous. I took my allowed 1-minute medical time out and finished the match. I was already ahead on points and finished with a win by playing stay-away the rest of the last round. 

If you know anything about broken ribs you know there is not much that can be done for them. I am not certain if this is where you were going with the rationalization comment, but , after only a 1-minute break, I was able to will my body through about 2 more minutes of moving around and blocking (never threw another offensive move) because I was determined to win and advance. 
I do think of it in the inverse however; I was able to ignore the pain to do what I needed to do.

I had advanced to the next day so I had to win 3 more matches to be a finalist. 
I had previously had cracked a rib and had soft tissue damage (which is worse IMO) but never had rib pain like I did that night. Hardly slept at all. Also, a black eye I had received had completely swollen closed over night and it took a good bit of icing to get it opened enough to see out of it. I will never forget waking up the next morning. Honestly, the worst I had ever felt in my life. I had about 4 hours to get up, get moving,  assess myself and decide if I was going to keep going. 
Smeared a tone of lidocaine/analgesic cream on, wrapped my rib cage up tight and put on a chest protector a size smaller than I usually wore. I won the first match pretty easily. The second match was against Jay Warwick. In the second round he got a hard mid-section kick in and I was done. Just could not breathe any more. 
So I left the trials, 2 matches from advancing. 

How can you say I did not force my body to 'rationalize'  and do what I forced it to do to go through what I went through?

To me this is battlefield mentality.


----------



## jobo (Mar 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Physicality is definitely a factor. And as a trained skill physicality is a martial technique.
> 
> It is not whether you get beaten by the better man it is if you figure out why.


your simultaneously accepting my point and dismissing it as largely irrelevant.

physicality isnt another martial skill, its the frame work on which the tapestry of martial skills are built

the chances of you being able to use your '' skills effectively in self defence increase as your physicality increases and clearly decrease if you let yourself go. in the definition of fitter im including strength endurance reactions, co ordination balance etc

if your dramatically fitter than your attacker then just about anything will work, if that is reversed they very little will

if its more or less even Stevens then, your relying on good technique to make the difference

now its my believe that studying ma SHOULD result in you being fitter than average , if it doesn't and my dojo is a bit light on fitness to be honest, then you need to augment it yourself if you want to be able to put up a reasonable defence against average people or hold your own against above average people


----------



## drop bear (Mar 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people say that, they are talking about "weapon fight" and not open hand fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. But so does the other guy. That is what a fight is.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 9, 2020)

jobo said:


> your simultaneously accepting my point and dismissing it as largely irrelevant.
> 
> physicality isnt another martial skill, its the frame work on which the tapestry of martial skills are built
> 
> ...



It is not largely irrelevant. But you also can't say all fights are won on physicality alone.

This bit I didn't agree with. 

"putting up vids of hulking profesional mma fighter v skinny TC masters doesnt alter that. theres a fair chance he would have done much the same to a less able MMA student, which would then have proved precisly nothing, but the better man won"

The rokus Aikido journey I think shows otherwise. In that he changed his methodology and his fighting ability significantly increased. This included a lot of elements including an increase in physicality.


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## Buka (Mar 9, 2020)

jobo said:


> your simultaneously accepting my point and dismissing it as largely irrelevant.
> 
> physicality isn't another martial skill, its the frame work on which the tapestry of martial skills are built



That's a great line right there.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> "This has been tested on the battlefield for centuries".


The correct MA path during ancient time should be:

Open hand training -> weapon training -> group soldiers battle field training

Mandarin Duck formation had been proved to be effective in battle field.


----------



## jobo (Mar 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It is not largely irrelevant. But you also can't say all fights are won on physicality alone.
> 
> This bit I didn't agree with.
> 
> ...


 and i didnt say that, but you need enough physicality to keep you in the fight long enough for your skills to work

and lets face it if the guy is stronger than you, lasts longer than you and has better reactions/ co ordination, then you have an uphill battle to do anything useful, even if he has only basic fighting skills, if he also happens to be an MMA professional, you've pretty much lost

but we were talking about self defence, being fitter than a professional fighter is a difficult task, being fitter than the guy who attacks you in the shopping centre ( mall) is a bit more doable, if your only averagely fit there a 50 % he isn't as fit as you are, our TC master may have done a lot better in those circumstances


----------



## Buka (Mar 9, 2020)

I find it a crying shame that anyone might train in the Arts for several years and not be in shape. I'm talking about real shape, fit shape, fighting shape. How can anyone not push themselves when dedicating so much time to something so valuable?

I always promised my students something. I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."

I realize that kind of thinking might not be for everyone, but then, Martial Arts training isn't for everyone, either.


----------



## skribs (Mar 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> I find it a crying shame that anyone might train in the Arts for several years and not be in shape. I'm talking about real shape, fit shape, fighting shape. How can anyone not push themselves when dedicating so much time to something so valuable?
> 
> I always promised my students something. I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."
> 
> I realize that kind of thinking might not be for everyone, but then, Martial Arts training isn't for everyone, either.



For a lot of people (myself included) it's hard to go to the gym, but easy to go to martial arts class.  When I was 23 I started going to the gym.  I gave myself every excuse to skip a session.  Too sore.  Had a cough.  Don't like the weather.  Forgot my gym bag and I'd have to run home first.  Allergies are acting up.  Had a bloody nose...yesterday.  It was easy to skip going, because it wasn't much fun.  Pumping iron gets monotonous.  Running even more so.

Age 24 I started Taekwondo.  I was practicing at home for hours every day.  I'd work on my stretches for higher kicks.  I'd do my forms and one-steps over and over again so I'd memorize them for the next class.  I'd iron out any details on the forms that I learned in class, so I'd be ready to learn more for the next class.  Due to my passion (obsession) for martial arts, and the fact I'd had previous experience, I quickly became an instructor and spent all my free time at my dojang, either teaching or training.  But even though I was exercising, and I'd sweat and all that, I wasn't really working out.  I wasn't lifting weights, wasn't pushing myself with body-weight exercises, wasn't working to improve my cardio with running.  Part of it is the same as before (the gym isn't much fun), part of it was that I simply didn't have the time.

I've got a bit of a lighter schedule now, and I'm trying to get to the gym more often.  I average about once a week now.  I'm pushing back towards my full schedule, where once a week may be a luxury.

Should I reduce my schedule again, I'd rather take extra classes in something else than use that time for the gym.  I'd have more fun that way, and likely get in more exercise if I'm not making excuses to stay home.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."


You may get knock down by someone who has less striking art training than you have, but you will never be taken down by someone who has less throwing art training.

The throwing art is different from the striking art.


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## jobo (Mar 9, 2020)

skribs said:


> For a lot of people (myself included) it's hard to go to the gym, but easy to go to martial arts class.  When I was 23 I started going to the gym.  I gave myself every excuse to skip a session.  Too sore.  Had a cough.  Don't like the weather.  Forgot my gym bag and I'd have to run home first.  Allergies are acting up.  Had a bloody nose...yesterday.  It was easy to skip going, because it wasn't much fun.  Pumping iron gets monotonous.  Running even more so.
> 
> Age 24 I started Taekwondo.  I was practicing at home for hours every day.  I'd work on my stretches for higher kicks.  I'd do my forms and one-steps over and over again so I'd memorize them for the next class.  I'd iron out any details on the forms that I learned in class, so I'd be ready to learn more for the next class.  Due to my passion (obsession) for martial arts, and the fact I'd had previous experience, I quickly became an instructor and spent all my free time at my dojang, either teaching or training.  But even though I was exercising, and I'd sweat and all that, I wasn't really working out.  I wasn't lifting weights, wasn't pushing myself with body-weight exercises, wasn't working to improve my cardio with running.  Part of it is the same as before (the gym isn't much fun), part of it was that I simply didn't have the time.
> 
> ...


it really doesnt take a great deal of time or a gym for that matter.

you can completely wreck yourself in 5 mins

or multi task,as today, i spent the entire run of TWD doing bicep curls, 500 of them


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> I find it a crying shame that anyone might train in the Arts for several years and not be in shape. I'm talking about real shape, fit shape, fighting shape. How can anyone not push themselves when dedicating so much time to something so valuable?
> 
> I always promised my students something. I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."
> 
> I realize that kind of thinking might not be for everyone, but then, Martial Arts training isn't for everyone, either.


I go back and forth. I've been self-training for the last few months-I couldn't justify me spending $150 when I could only go maybe once a week due to my schedule. And there weren't any 24 hour gyms I could go to for my working days. Gained about 20-30 pounds and lost a ton of muscle mass since december. A new gym opened 9 days ago near me thats 24/7, I've gone 7 times, hoping to get back to fighting shape.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2020)

How much skill do you need for SD?

If your opponent use straight punch at you, you can use circular punch to knock his punch away. Your other circular punch then can hit on his head. This double hooks combo can work on almost all straight punches.

If you are good in "double hooks" combo, you should be able to take care most of the attack. You can combine offense and defense into one skill.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How much skill do you need for SD?
> 
> If your opponent use straight punch at you, you can use circular punch to knock his punch away. Your other circular punch then can hit on his head. This double hooks combo can work on almost all straight punches.
> 
> If you are good in "double hooks" combo, you should be able to take care most of the attack. You can combine offense and defense into one skill.



Yeah you would think that. But when that hulking guy throws them fast with intention
 Many people can't stop those shots.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Find this discussion in another forum. IMO, some valid points are made here. What are the proper solutions? Your thought?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a detailed explanation why most martial arts don't work in self defense.
> 
> ...


I would say the best way to be able to defend yourself is to be a police officer, they carry guns and they come in great numbers.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How much skill do you need for SD?
> 
> If your opponent use straight punch at you, you can use circular punch to knock his punch away. Your other circular punch then can hit on his head. This double hooks combo can work on almost all straight punches.
> 
> If you are good in "double hooks" combo, you should be able to take care most of the attack. You can combine offense and defense into one skill.


You need to fight a real boxer.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 9, 2020)

jobo said:


> and i didnt say that, but you need enough physicality to keep you in the fight long enough for your skills to work
> 
> and lets face it if the guy is stronger than you, lasts longer than you and has better reactions/ co ordination, then you have an uphill battle to do anything useful, even if he has only basic fighting skills, if he also happens to be an MMA professional, you've pretty much lost
> 
> but we were talking about self defence, being fitter than a professional fighter is a difficult task, being fitter than the guy who attacks you in the shopping centre ( mall) is a bit more doable, if your only averagely fit there a 50 % he isn't as fit as you are, our TC master may have done a lot better in those circumstances





Buka said:


> I always promised my students something. I told them "you might someday lose to a better fighter, but I give you my word you will never lose to somebody in better shape than you."



These two posts are both sides of the Rocky equation. In the first match against Creed, Rocky was an slug that trained hard and nearly won. He was not physically better, stronger or faster but had more physicality, more 'want to'. More will to win. You will see similar occurrences in nearly every sport from time to time.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah you would think that. But when that hulking guy throws them fast with intention
> Many people can't stop those shots.


Why do you have to assume that your opponent will throw fast punches with intention? Why don't you assume that you will throw fast punches with intention?

If you can put your opponent in defense mode, is that the best SD strategy?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. This brings up another very important point. And it overflows to martial arts.
> 
> Your body does not respond to rationalization. You can't make deals with it. If you are trying to loose weight and your cat dies. Your body does not give you a day pass to eat chocolate.
> 
> ...


Yep, we're saying much the same thing in the majority of this stuff, though you seem to think I do something entirely different.

I haven't heard anyone talk about taking down a room of footballers with an arm bar. From my view, standing arm bars mostlly aren't what some folks think they are. WIthin the aiki arts,  in my view, the primary principle is closer to an arm drag or Russian wrist snap (I think that's the right term for what I'm thinking of), and the actual locking of the elbow is secondary. So, does a standing arm bar work against a resisting opponent? Yes, though not necessarily as a lock. Some of them are reliable if you ever get to them, though I find them much more likely to be available in ground work.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You need to fight a real boxer.


It's not that difficult to train this skill.

- Get yourself a heavy bag.
- Throw left hook, right hook as fast, as powerful as you can "like a mad man". Don't stop until you get exhausted.

If you train like this for 3 years, you should be able to handle yourself in normal SD situation.

"Like a mad man" is the key word. If you are a mad man, people will be afraid of you and stay away from you. They will worry about how to defend themselves against you instead.

So the short cut for SD is to develop a single skill that you can use it to scare everybody away.

This is my favor "mad man attack" example. Instead of using left hook, right hook, he uses jab, cross.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> That's a great line right there.


Agreed. You beat me to quoting that. Well said, @jobo.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2020)

*Why most martial arts don't work in self defense.*

Because people have not developed "door guarding" skill yet. They may have learned 20 forms, 200 technique, but none of their technique have "high successful rate".

If you have taken down 100 guys (not sure you can find 100 guys to knock down), the chance that you may take down the 101 guy will be high.


----------



## skribs (Mar 9, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would say the best way to be able to defend yourself is to be a police officer, they carry guns and they come in great numbers.



Depending on where you live, you can have one or both of those without being a police officer.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why do you have to assume that your opponent will throw fast punches with intention? Why don't you assume that you will throw fast punches with intention?
> 
> If you can put your opponent in defense mode, is that the best SD strategy?



Because I won't be disadvantaged with that assumption. 

If my oponant throws limp wristed noodles great. That only makes things easier.


----------



## Buka (Mar 9, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's not that difficult to train this skill.
> 
> - Get yourself a heavy bag.
> - Throw left hook, right hook as fast, as powerful as you can "like a mad man". Don't stop until you get exhausted.
> ...



Agreed. Also a good example on why moving straight back isn’t tactically sound against anyone, but especially against a determined aggressor.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Because I won't be disadvantaged with that assumption.
> 
> If my oponant throws limp wristed noodles great. That only makes things easier.


Have you ever got into a street fight that your opponent's punches landed on your body that didn't hurt you at all? I have had that kind of experience. 

I don't respect street fighter as much as you do. Most of the street fighters when they attack, they commit 100%. That will give you a lot of opportunity. In the ring or on the mat, you will never met anybody as stupid as that (100% commitment).


----------



## drop bear (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you ever got into a street fight that your opponent's punches landed on your body that didn't hurt you at all? I have had that kind of experience.
> 
> I don't respect street fighter as much as you do. Most of the street fighters when they attack, they commit 100%. That will give you a lot of opportunity. In the ring or on the mat, you will never met anybody as stupid as that (100% commitment).



Yeah.

But it wasn't like I sat there and was unable to deal with the guy because I had only trained to deal with guys who could fight.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 10, 2020)

Buka said:


> Agreed. Also a good example on why moving straight back isn’t tactically sound against anyone, but especially against a determined aggressor.



Hard skill to pick up though.


----------



## Prostar (Mar 10, 2020)

I had a student many years ago who was stopped by a Big Bad Drunk Bubba (BBDB).  My student was originally from Laos so he was five feet nuting, and a hundred and nuthing pounds.  After my student shut his door BBDB kicked it in and said, "I hear you're some kind of hotshot black belt" After my my student tried to reason with BBDB and assure that he was, indeed, not a hotshot, BBD tried a big looping punch at my guy.  My student stepped back into a fighting stance and fired off a backfist to BBDB's nose, dropping him like a bad habit.

My student came in to the next class worried that he was going to be deported.  Another student in the room was the city attorney for the town we were in.  After he stopped laughing, he assured my student that there was no way he would be deported.

I call that one well defended.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 10, 2020)

Prostar said:


> I had a student many years ago who was stopped by a Big Bad Drunk Bubba (BBDB).  My student was originally from Laos so he was five feet nuting, and a hundred and nuthing pounds.  After my student shut his door BBDB kicked it in and said, "I hear you're some kind of hotshot black belt" After my my student tried to reason with BBDB and assure that he was, indeed, not a hotshot, BBD tried a big looping punch at my guy.  My student stepped back into a fighting stance and fired off a backfist to BBDB's nose, dropping him like a bad habit.
> 
> My student came in to the next class worried that he was going to be deported.  Another student in the room was the city attorney for the town we were in.  After he stopped laughing, he assured my student that there was no way he would be deported.
> 
> I call that one well defended.



Makes me glad I live in Colorado, where if you kick in my door I can just shoot you and be done with it.


----------



## Buka (Mar 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Hard skill to pick up though.



Well, yeah, if someone is trying to figure it out on their own. There would be a lot of trial and error and a whole boot load of ice. But it could still be done that way, but there’s no reason it should be.

Just about any trainer can teach you the footwork, a really good trainer will teach you different methods of footwork that might apply to you. Everybody moves kind of different.

If there is no matador and bull kind of footwork, there should be. And teaching it is one thing, making sure that everybody gets to be both the matador AND the bull is another.

I remember that fight. I tend to yell at certain times when I watch fights on television. And Vitor was a fun guy to watch. I found it rather interesting that he wanted to be a puncher.

I remember watching and thinking about the other guy. Yelling, “side step, dude, come on!”


----------



## jobo (Mar 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah you would think that. But when that hulking guy throws them fast with intention
> Many people can't stop those shots.


as i said most of what your saying has truth but is being drastically over stated as your running through your own prism of reality

your doing security, its your job to deal with the hulking guy throwing those shots. but doing MMA is not the default setting for bouncers in general,

 they seem to rely on being big strong and having mates to take the big guy down. 

if they in general haven't defaulted to your reality to deal with the same issue its a bit rich that, that your insisting that people who do their level best to avoid trouble need to follow your example

 lets face it, doing ma as an adult is odd to start off with, most people live long and happy lives with out it. thers a fairly good chance that those that do, do it are better prepared than the population in general, particularly those like me who are well past the first flush of youth. 

That  big guy throwing mean punches, will probably take me out no matter what i do, but then its seems extremely unlikely that he will try to punch me at all,if  i dont antagonise him and just choose to move/leave if he takes a dislike to me. but then im fairly big and can throw mean punches myself... i generally just report aggressive knob heads to the bouncers, thats their job


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## dvcochran (Mar 10, 2020)

jobo said:


> as i said most of what your saying has truth but is being drastically over stated as your running through your own prism of reality
> 
> your doing security, its your job to deal with the hulking guy throwing those shots. but doing MMA is not the default setting for bouncers in general,
> 
> ...


Very well said.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 10, 2020)

Prostar said:


> I had a student many years ago who was stopped by a Big Bad Drunk Bubba (BBDB).  My student was originally from Laos so he was five feet nuting, and a hundred and nuthing pounds.  After my student shut his door BBDB kicked it in and said, "I hear you're some kind of hotshot black belt" After my my student tried to reason with BBDB and assure that he was, indeed, not a hotshot, BBD tried a big looping punch at my guy.  My student stepped back into a fighting stance and fired off a backfist to BBDB's nose, dropping him like a bad habit.
> 
> My student came in to the next class worried that he was going to be deported.  Another student in the room was the city attorney for the town we were in.  After he stopped laughing, he assured my student that there was no way he would be deported.
> 
> I call that one well defended.


Hi Prostar.  I’m glad your student was able to have a good resolution to the conflict.  I’m also glad nobody needed to get shot in the process.  Everybody goes home in the end, and nobody’s family needs to have a funeral over something stupid.  Hopefully the BBDB learned a lesson.  That might be doubtful, but at least your student handled it well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I had only trained to deal with guys who could fight.


This is my point. If you train MA, and most guys that you have to fight on the street don't train MA, if you can't handle yourself, it just make no logical sense.

Most new students cannot do too many fist push up (flat fist surface). If one can't do fist push up, how hard can he punch on a hard surface (such as the head) without hurting his own hand?


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## jobo (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is my point. If you train MA, and most guys that you have to fight on the street don't train MA, if you can't handle yourself, it just make no logical sense.
> 
> Most new students cannot do too many fist push up (flat fist surface). If one can't do fist push up, how hard can he punch on a hard surface (such as the head) without hurting his own hand?


 well as someone who declines to do fist push ups coz its stupid, the answer is pretty dam hard, unless your putting forward the idea that fist push ups make a notable difference to if you hurt your hand or not


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2020)

Buka said:


> I remember watching and thinking about the other guy. Yelling, “side step, dude, come on!”


If in your training, you always move in a circle with your opponent as the center of the circle, you won't develop moving back habit.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2020)

jobo said:


> well as someone who declines to do fist push ups coz its stupid, the answer is pretty dam hard, unless your putting forward the idea that fist push ups make a notable difference to if you hurt your hand or not


If you don't sharp your weapon, how can you use it in fighting?

When

- your arm hits on my arm, or
- your leg hits my leg,

if it hurts you more than it hurt me, I have advantage.


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## skribs (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If in your training, you always move in a circle with your opponent as the center of the circle, you won't develop moving back habit.



In my journey through the "Martial Arts in Sci-Fi and Fantasy" posts, I've been coming up with ideas for martial arts for different fantasy races in a book I may write.  One of the concepts I came up with is an art with three forms: box, triangle, and circle.  This idea helps me with the ideas for circle form.


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## jobo (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't sharp your weapon, how can you use it in fighting?


i can use it perfectly well, ive gotten to 60 and have all my body working perfectly well, no dodgy knees, no knacker hip, no lumbago and particularly no arthritis in my hands,

 i put this down to the fact that ive not abuse my body ( well not since i stopped being young and stupid), generally but in particular have not followed stupid practises on body strengthening from the orient, that have little to no scientific validity and even if they did strengthen id still rather have full use of my hands

i also have a fairly high thresh hold of pain, very little hurts me, i put this down largely to being clumsy and walking into things a lot, i have gashed my head wide open and not even noticed the impact


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2020)

jobo said:


> not abuse my body


My mother in law does not train MA. She has 

- knee problem, 
- back problem, and 
- arthritis in her hands. 

I have trained MA all my life. I don't have such issue.

I'm still running 3 miles 3 times a week. As long as my knees are OK, I'll keep running. I believe if I don't use it, I'll lose it.


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## jobo (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My mother in law does not train MA. She has
> 
> - knee problem,
> - back problem, and
> ...


the ma on here of my sort of age and a good bit younger seem to have assorts of structure problems, its a small group but hell there is a high incidence


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## Buka (Mar 10, 2020)

I love two knuckle push ups almost as much as I love pizza.


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## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My mother in law does not train MA. She has
> 
> - knee problem,
> - back problem, and
> ...



She doesn't have those things because she didn't do martial arts but for various reasons that may well have been out of her control. Back problems are often caused by having children, likewise knees. she may have had arthritis in her hands from washing, ironing, looking after a family perhaps plus an outside job, or she may have had it even if she'd done martial arts. You are making an unfair comparison, unkind too.


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2020)

jobo said:


> as i said most of what your saying has truth but is being drastically over stated as your running through your own prism of reality
> 
> your doing security, its your job to deal with the hulking guy throwing those shots. but doing MMA is not the default setting for bouncers in general,
> 
> ...



Yeah. Because results don't matter self defense can be trained more like LARP. than with any serious intent. 

And being big and having friends is the ultimate martial arts anyway. 

Unfortunately this also seems to upset self defense instructiors who seem to think they could stop hulking man throwing punches with intent.


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is my point. If you train MA, and most guys that you have to fight on the street don't train MA, if you can't handle yourself, it just make no logical sense.
> 
> Most new students cannot do too many fist push up (flat fist surface). If one can't do fist push up, how hard can he punch on a hard surface (such as the head) without hurting his own hand?



Maybe they are big and have friends.


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## jobo (Mar 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Because results don't matter self defense can be trained more like LARP. than with any serious intent.
> 
> And being big and having friends is the ultimate martial arts anyway.
> 
> Unfortunately this also seems to upset self defense instructiors who seem to think they could stop hulking man throwing punches with intent.


your just building a straw man, results can not be Guaranteed for anybody, once you accept that then its much clearer, every one picks a bogeyman and then trains to meet that expectation

*what you an reasonably **expect** to happen, big guy throwing mean punches, is an **extremely** unlikely scenario for me and if were to happen, there **wouldn't** be much i could do about it anyway, no matter what i trained 

and more **bizarrely** the only way i could train to meet that, would be to let a big guy punch me whilst i worked out how to stop him

so the only way to learn how to stop a big guy from **scrambling** my brains is to let a big guy scramble my brains. can you not see that most people **wouldn't** think that a logical solution to the problem. 

its the remote possibility against almost certain brain damage*


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## dvcochran (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is my point. If you train MA, and most guys that you have to fight on the street don't train MA, if you can't handle yourself, it just make no logical sense.
> 
> Most new students cannot do too many fist push up (flat fist surface). If one can't do fist push up, how hard can he punch on a hard surface (such as the head) without hurting his own hand?


I get what you are saying to a degree. When I do pushups they are with a closed fist, but I know my hands are not nearly as 'tough' as they used to be. The best tool to achieve what you are talking about is a makiwara board IMHO. Start with a smooth(er) one and work your way up. 
When I was actively taking Kali we dropped and caught 8-10-12 pound steel shot balls. It improved your grip very effectively but did nothing for the sensation of impact to the fist. That is where the boards came into play.


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2020)

jobo said:


> your just building a straw man, results can not be Guaranteed for anybody, once you accept that then its much clearer, every one picks a bogeyman and then trains to meet that expectation
> 
> *what you an reasonably **expect** to happen, big guy throwing mean punches, is an **extremely** unlikely scenario for me and if were to happen, there **wouldn't** be much i could do about it anyway, no matter what i trained
> 
> ...



Of course. The old you sould not have laws because criminals will just break them argument. 

There isn't a 100% and 0% argument. 

If a method of training raises the percentage of success that is the method you probably want to go for. 

And as far as dealing with heavy punches. You need to factor in that the person throwing those punches doesn't want to rape you or kill you or something. So it is logical to experience a fight in a controlled environment to be prepared for a less controlled one.


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## jobo (Mar 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Of course. The old you sould not have laws because criminals will just break them argument.
> 
> There isn't a 100% and 0% argument.
> 
> ...


no, getting punched in the head a lot, is not a sensible idea, not if you want your wits about you when your my age

ive dealt with my bogeyman, im well above averagely strong and quite fit and co ordinated, theres very few people % wise who can just over power me, im not however 25 any more, so theres an upper limit on who a can expect to fight and win, but then i get in so many less fights than when i was 25, that it matters less and less


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Maybe they are big and have friends.


But you may be big and have friends too.

This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". People always assume that their opponents are stronger, bigger, faster, ... The purpose of MA training is to make yourself stronger, bigger, faster, ...

If you can build your body like this, you will let your opponent to worry about SD.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> She doesn't have those things because she didn't do martial arts but for various reasons that may well have been out of her control. Back problems are often caused by having children, likewise knees. she may have had arthritis in her hands from washing, ironing, looking after a family perhaps plus an outside job, or she may have had it even if she'd done martial arts. You are making an unfair comparison, unkind too.


If you (general YOU) doesn't treat exercise as the most important part of your life, that can be the major problem. The exercise habit require to be developed during the young age. If you miss just one day work out, you will feel guilty, you are on the correct path.

I believe if you work out properly daily, your chance to have

- knee problem,
- back problem, and
- arthritis in her hands.

will be reduced.


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2020)

jobo said:


> no, getting punched in the head a lot, is not a sensible idea, not if you want your wits about you when your my age
> 
> ive dealt with my bogeyman, im well above averagely strong and quite fit and co ordinated, theres very few people % wise who can just over power me, im not however 25 any more, so theres an upper limit on who a can expect to fight and win, but then i get in so many less fights than when i was 25, that it matters less and less



So self defense instruction should put a glass ceiling on your training?

What if you turned around tomorrow and suddenly wanted to become better?


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## drop bear (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But you may be big and have friends too.
> 
> This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". People always assume that their opponents are stronger, bigger, faster, ... The purpose of MA training is to make yourself stronger, bigger, faster, ...
> 
> If you can build your body like this, you will let your opponent to worry about SD.



I think the purpose of growth is to challenge yourself.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My mother in law does not train MA. She has
> 
> - knee problem,
> - back problem, and
> ...


I'm 26. I've got knee and elbow problems cause by MA, back problems that may be helped or hurt by MA, I'm not sure, and some memory issues that may be a result of all the concussions I've got. A single person isn't a good example for determining if something helps or hurts health, particularly when there's no control involved (ie: spending a year doing MA, every three months filling out a survey on various health things, then spending a year not doing MA and every 3 months fill out the same survey).

Also, I would guess that your mother in law is significantly older than you.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 10, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But you may be big and have friends too.
> 
> This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". People always assume that their opponents are stronger, bigger, faster, ... The purpose of MA training is to make yourself stronger, bigger, faster, ...
> 
> If you can build your body like this, you will let your opponent to worry about SD.


 
You don't look like this.


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## jobo (Mar 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> So self defense instruction should put a glass ceiling on your training?
> 
> What if you turned around tomorrow and suddenly wanted to become better?


no nature and old age put a ceiling on your training, along with a realisation that getting punched in the head is not a sensible past time and since i stopped being a complete **** i dont get in anywhere as many situations or maybe i stopped being such an **** when i realised i cant back it up like i once did ?

i dont train to deal with bear attacks, even drop bears are off my radar, because the chances of it happening are very small,  and it would be complexly pointless


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## Sifu Ni (Mar 10, 2020)

good summary


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 10, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I think the purpose of growth is to challenge yourself.


You can challenge yourself in "iron-man training" that does not require opponent. To challenge yourself is just to general.

I believe the purpose of MA training is to develop some "door guarding" skill that can be used to defense yourself, and also can be used to defend your family members. When someone cannot defense himself, he has not developed his "door guarding" skill yet.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2020)

jobo said:


> no nature and old age put a ceiling on your training, along with a realisation that getting punched in the head is not a sensible past time and since i stopped being a complete **** i dont get in anywhere as many situations or maybe i stopped being such an **** when i realised i cant back it up like i once did ?
> 
> i dont train to deal with bear attacks, even drop bears are off my radar, because the chances of it happening are very small,  and it would be complexly pointless



It is not the point. If I go to a school that says it can make me fight bears. Then I want to be able to fight bears. 

Not a school that says I will probably not be attacked by one. 

I mean seriously I don't spend time and money to probably not get in a fight. I could do that for free.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It is not the point. If I go to a school that says it can make me fight bears. Then I want to be able to fight bears.
> 
> Not a school that says I will probably not be attacked by one.
> 
> I mean seriously I don't spend time and money to probably not get in a fight. I could do that for free.


This is why it bothers me a lot when someone said, "If you want to fight, buy yourself a gun." 

What if in some foreign country that firearm is not allowed?


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## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you (general YOU) doesn't treat exercise as the most important part of your life, that can be the major problem. The exercise habit require to be developed during the young age. If you miss just one day work out, you will feel guilty, you are on the correct path.
> 
> I believe if you work out properly daily, your chance to have
> 
> ...




You assume she had the choice to exercise or not? 

You should also know that exercise induced problems in knees, backs etc are common? and that arthritis can be caused in older age by breaks and prolonged use? do you know there are different sorts of arthritis? I'd suggest that as your mother in law is most likely much older than you she has osteoarthritis, known as 'wear and tear' arthritis for obvious reasons.


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## jobo (Mar 11, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It is not the point. If I go to a school that says it can make me fight bears. Then I want to be able to fight bears.
> 
> Not a school that says I will probably not be attacked by one.
> 
> I mean seriously I don't spend time and money to probably not get in a fight. I could do that for free.


your using increasingly bizare arguments

lets look at this from the reverse angle, are you telling me that if i moved 12000 miles and signed on at your class, that you guarantee that i will be able to deal with big guys throwing mean punches

you cant be, as that would mean your doing the same exaggeration as your accusing others of.

if by following your model i get knocked out, just the same as using my current karate model then i have gained precisely nothing from the switch. if its not a particularly big guy throwing not particularly mean punches then i can deal with it quite easily using my current skills

nb being better able but still getting knocked out is no benefit what so ever, i may as well go down on the first punch as the 5th the out come is the same and ive saved the air fare


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2020)

jobo said:


> your using increasingly bizare arguments
> 
> lets look at this from the reverse angle, are you telling me that if i moved 12000 miles and signed on at your class, that you guarantee that i will be able to deal with big guys throwing mean punches
> 
> ...



So bike helmets and seat belts are not worth the effort Because they are not 100% successful? 

And that justifies selling an ice cream bucket as a bike helmet?


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why it bothers me a lot when someone said, "If you want to fight, buy yourself a gun."
> 
> What if in some foreign country that firearm is not allowed?



That and the complete lack of understanding about proportionate force.


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## jobo (Mar 12, 2020)

drop bear said:


> So bike helmets and seat belts are not worth the effort Because they are not 100% successful?
> 
> And that justifies selling an ice cream bucket as a bike helmet?


 cant we have a sensible discussion with out you throwing daft analogies.

as a point of order seat belts and helmets, sans some major flaw and with a bit of maintenance work exactly as designed one hundred % of the time, machines tend to do that, where as people are a lot less reliable

if they dont work, its because the impact is outside of their design brief

there design is to cope with ''minor bangs, which make up the vast majority of all the accidents, if your driving flat out into fixed/heavy objects they tend to help not at all, hence airbags, which themselves have a limit.



so we can run with this, wearing a seat belt is like learning self defence, it will only work to its design, that being dependent not only on the technique but on your ability to use it

i expect my karate skills to work not all, if i dont put in the work on fitness, i expect them to be devastating on all the people am substantial fitter than, which is the biggest % of the population and not at all if im attacked by dontay wilders minder, which is the equivalent of running flat out into a concrete barrier


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2020)

nogibjjgear said:


> No it doesn't teach any unrealistic scenarios.  There could be like infinite scenarios and attacker could attack you in infinite number of ways and you need to use your training when it happens and improvise. Im new to nogi and loving it.


Someone here turned me on to BJJHQ.com. I just watch for a good deal on something I want, and get it there. Their sister site MMAHQ.com also frequently offers no-gi gear (rashguards, spats, etc.). With each of these, they sell one thing a day, for just that day (or until it sells out), so you have to check daily.


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2020)

nogibjjgear said:


> No it doesn't teach any unrealistic scenarios.  There could be like infinite scenarios and attacker could attack you in infinite number of ways and you need to use your training when it happens and improvise. Im new to nogi and loving it.



Those infinite scenarios break down in to a much smaller number of concepts though.


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