# School bans pupils from doing cartwheels



## Big Don (Aug 27, 2008)

*School bans pupils from doing cartwheels *

*A school has banned pupils from doing cartwheels and handstands in the playground. *


  			 				 EXCERPT:
 				 					 			 		By Daily Telegraph reporter 
			 			Last Updated: 7:39AM BST 27 Aug 2008

Students were told that all unsupervised gymnastic movements outdoors were not allowed in an effort to protect the children from injury.
The move has caused such a backlash from parents the school is now being forced to review its decision after the education minister suggested it should be overturned.
Belgian Gardens State School in Townsville, Queensland, came under fire when it announced the policy recently.
Kylie Buschgens said her 10-year-old daughter had been punished for doing cartwheels, even on the grass, after students were told of the ban at a recent assembly. She said that her daughter and other students now "sit around and do nothing" during breaks because they are not interested in other sports.
(((END EXCERPT)))
Nanny state stuff like this is part and parcel of socialism.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 27, 2008)

I can understand the need to try to protect students from injury but I think some schools are going to far in this regard.  It sounds more like the school is afraid of being sued if someone gets accidentally hurt.
Why not just take out all activity that might possibly promote health, physical activity, and the possibility of burning of some of that energy that kids have.


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## Lynne (Aug 27, 2008)

Oh, how retarded.

I guess the school district should hire social workers to supervise the children's gymnastic moves on the playground.  And they can pry into their religious beliefs and home life while they're at it.


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## jkembry (Aug 27, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> I can understand the need to try to protect students from injury but I think some schools are going to far in this regard.  It sounds more like the school is afraid of being sued if someone gets accidentally hurt.
> Why not just take out all activity that might possibly promote health, physical activity, and the possibility of burning of some of that energy that kids have.




Exactly...that is what the world has come to.  The lawyers have brainwashed us into suing for every little thing.  What the heck...accidents will happen and that is all they are...accidents.

I remember in grade school breaking my arm while playing pilot off the swingset.  The school nurse got me to hospital and parents was called.  There was no malice on the school's part...just me being a kid and being dumb...No lawyers involved.  I recovered just fine and actually continued to play on the swings with a little better respect.  Basically, it was a plain old accident.

The lawyers have our brains twisted into believing there is no such thing as an accident...there is always someone at fault that has to pay.  Pure greed...in my opinion.  And it takes away the ability of a kid to be a kid.


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## Ahriman (Aug 27, 2008)

What? Banning only cartwheels? Kids should be tied to their chairs the moment they enter, and they should only be transported in those chairs by teachers... Hey, think about all the possible accidents caused by... uhm... doors, that's it, doors kill people. Pencils are even worse!
...
I would write a logical response, but not so long ago I was literally rolling on the floor laughing.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 27, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Nanny state stuff like this is part and parcel of socialism.



Umm... WHAT?

How on earth are you connecting cartwheels to socialism?  The US Republican party in all its socialism hating glory has its own nanny state rules as well it likes to push.

This selective vision can really be amazing...


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## shesulsa (Aug 27, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Umm... WHAT?
> 
> How on earth are you connecting cartwheels to socialism?  The US Republican party in all its socialism hating glory has its own nanny state rules as well it likes to push.
> 
> This selective vision can really be amazing...


Indeed.


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## Empty Hands (Aug 27, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Nanny state stuff like this is part and parcel of socialism.



This has nothing to do with a "nanny state" or "socialism" as you well know, and everything to do with protecting the school from liability.  Call it what you will, that isn't socialism (nor is it capitalism for that matter).

Not every square peg in this big 'ol world will fit into the round hole of your political views.


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## CoryKS (Aug 27, 2008)

Ritalin!  Ritalin, Valium and 'ludes, that'll take care of all this unseemly mirth and frivolity!


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## Ray (Aug 27, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Oh, how retarded.


Not politically correct.  Try "how challenged."


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## mook jong man (Aug 27, 2008)

Yeah this b.s is from my country and its all about the school trying to protect itself from being sued by idiot parents.

 What makes it even more stupid is that there is also a big push on to reduce childhood obesity , so they are contradicting themselves. 
The layers of cotton wool getting wrapped around kids is getting thicker and thicker everyday , i am 41 now and it makes me think how people my age ever made it to adulthood .

 When we were these kids age we used to play tackle rugby league on a field that was more dirt and rocks than grass , wrestling , brandings (throwing a tennis ball at each other ) , cricket with a proper cricket ball and tons of other equally hazardous games .

 As far as i know we are all still alive , i think the world is going insane and i don't know how we can stop it.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 27, 2008)

Point #1 - While I think that this is stupid....I see the need for it.  In fact, I would submit that rules like this exist because of the parents, not the school administration.  We now live in a society where a teacher, school district and state can and WILL be sued if a teacher hurts a child's feelings.  The school has the right and responsibility to protect itself from lawsuits.  There was once a time when we were governed by reason and common sense...and more importantly a sense of responsibility (i.e. if your child does a cartwheel, falls and hurts him/herself....it is THEIR OWN FAULT, not the school's).  But no more...now we live in a world where if you make a stupid mistake, you can use the courts to get someone else to pay for it.

Point #2 - I see NO relation here to socialism.  Sorry....that's really reaching to make a connection.  There is most certainly a distinction between total state control of all aspects of life and the concept of socialism.


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## Big Don (Aug 27, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Point #2 - I see NO relation here to socialism.  Sorry....that's really reaching to make a connection.  There is most certainly a distinction between* total state control of all aspects of life and the concept of socialism.*


Which is exactly how those nations identifying themselves as socialist were and are run.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 27, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Which is exactly how those nations identifying themselves as socialist were and are run.


 
I think that you are referring to communist governments which are loosely based on socialist ideals.  

The actual concept of socialism refers only to to control of goods and services.  It is an economic idea that has been very badly implemented.  Unfortunately, those countries must control other aspects of people's lives to make their communist or even socialist ideals to work.  People won't accept it on their own.  The elimination of private property is a hard thing to make people accept.

So on that basis, again, the banning of cartwheeling is not an economic idea.  It isn't even a restriction put in place to control people to keep them within the government's system.....It is protection, plain and simple.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 27, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Which is exactly how those nations identifying themselves as socialist were and are run.



Yeah, and things like secret prisons, government eavesdropping, torture... I mean "enhanced interrogation", large standing armies, using military force to impose there doctrines on other countries where also features of those governments you are referring too.  Now where else have I seen those things...  pretty sure they are not exclusive to socialist governments... nor are protect your butt rules by administrators, in fact I'd say those rules come more when you have a heavily litigious society, something those socialist governments didn't.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2008)

BigDon, you're not here for the martial arts are you?


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## CoryKS (Aug 28, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> BigDon, you're not here for the martial arts are you?


 
I imagine he's here for martial arts AND discussion on other topics, just like others here who start threads on whether gays are natural or drugs should be legalized.  It's just that Don is coming at it from a different point of view.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 28, 2008)

Ahriman said:


> What? Banning only cartwheels? Kids should be tied to their chairs the moment they enter, and they should only be transported in those chairs by teachers... Hey, think about all the possible accidents caused by... uhm... doors, that's it, doors kill people. Pencils are even worse!
> ...
> I would write a logical response, but not so long ago I was literally rolling on the floor laughing.


 
Good idea, tie them to a chair.  Maybe chairs that have wheels on them so they can go to class to class without having to untie them.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 28, 2008)

The good thing is that solutions to the liability and lawyer problem exist.  Some countries have instituted a sales tax that pays for any and all accidents for anyone...but you give up almost any right to sue.  Sanctions for stupidity in those places depend on democratic laws and not slick lawyers.  I don't know if it would work in the US, but it's just a thought.


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## jkembry (Aug 28, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> The good thing is that solutions to the liability and lawyer problem exist.  Some countries have instituted a sales tax that pays for any and all accidents for anyone...but you give up almost any right to sue.  Sanctions for stupidity in those places depend on democratic laws and not slick lawyers.  I don't know if it would work in the US, but it's just a thought.




Don't think it would work in the U. S.   The lawyers would lobby against it.  They owuld stand to lose too much money.


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## Brian King (Aug 28, 2008)

A related story (couple of different sources)
Amusing that safety and racial issues are now being brought up and the whole team has had to quit playing baseball, but at least the other teams are safe now.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080826/D92PLSE80.html



> 9-year-old boy told he's too good to pitch
> Aug 25, 9:33 PM (ET)
> 
> By JOHN CHRISTOFFERSEN NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) - Nine-year-old Jericho Scott is a good baseball player - too good, it turns out.
> ...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26427506/



> Little League Player Not Allowed to Pitch Because He's Too Good
> 
> WOAI-TV
> updated 7:16 a.m. PT, Wed., Aug. 27, 2008
> From NBC News: A debate is brewing in Connecticut over a nine-year-old baseball player. The league he plays for says Jericho Scott is too good to be on the field, but his parents say their son shouldn't be penalized for his talent. Jericho Scott says felt kind of sad that me and my teammates couldn't play baseball. It's his strong arm that has 9-year-old Jericho Scott sitting the bench this baseball season. He was told his fastball was just too good for the league. His mother, Nicole, says they said he was throwing too hard, pitching too good. I said that's not a reason, I asked them to produce a rule or piece of paper stating that, but they couldn't. Jericho's mother thinks her son was taken off the pitcher's mound because he wouldn't join another team, one that is sponsored by an employer of a league administrator. But an attorney for the youth baseball league of New Haven says it was more about safety. League attorney Peter Noble says we have a lot of beginner players that are not used to the speed of the ball. It is the prerogative of the league to determine how the health and the safety of the players will be kept. The league has offered to let Jericho play other positions or pitch for more advanced leagues but Jericho's parents want to keep him where he is. Nicole says I think he deserves the same opportunity that everyone else deserves. While the family and the league disagree about what's right for Jericho Scott, it seems the public is supporting the 9-year-old's right to play. One person says I think taking a kid out of a league and punishing him like that, it's not right. Another says if the kid is good enough to play, he should be able to play any position he wants. Jericho says I just go over there to have fun anyway. I don't go over there to win or lose. The next step is taking the battle from the baseball diamond to court.


http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=f7179914-5b81-413f-8f14-d4affb0a9ef7

same story but includes a picture of the young boy.

Regards
Brian King


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## punisher73 (Aug 28, 2008)

Things like this just leave me puzzled.  It reminds of the schools here that have banned dodgeball from gym classes because it makes the kids feel bad about themselves that they aren't star athletes.

No clue where the socialist crapola came in though.


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## CoryKS (Aug 28, 2008)

From Brian's article:




> The league has offered to let Jericho play other positions or *pitch for more advanced leagues* but Jericho's parents want to keep him where he is.


 
I think this would have been the best solution, though I can understand if the kid wanted to play with his friends.  The kid has shown an aptitude for this sport, and it would probably help him to move into a league where the other kids have a chance to hit his pitches.  Maybe he could find a coach to show him more advanced pitches.  Throwing screamers past kids that aren't at his level won't help him develop his skill.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2008)

CoryKS said:


> I imagine he's here for martial arts AND discussion on other topics, just like others here who start threads on whether gays are natural or drugs should be legalized. It's just that Don is coming at it from a different point of view.


 
Ah you would have thought that but if you check through his posts and threads all but a couple are political comments.


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## CoryKS (Aug 28, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Ah you would have thought that but if you check through his posts and threads all but a couple are political comments.


 
I'm probably guilty of that myself, and it's by design.  Posting history doesn't necessarily reflect reading history, however.  I very much enjoy the MA discussions.  But there are a lot of people here who have been doing MA a lot longer than I have, with experiences I hope never to have, and in most cases my two cents don't really further the discussion along.  But the topics discussed in The Study are much more subjective.


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## Big Don (Aug 28, 2008)

CoryKS said:


> I'm probably guilty of that myself, and it's by design.  Posting history doesn't necessarily reflect reading history, however.  I very much enjoy the MA discussions.  But there are a lot of people here who have been doing MA a lot longer than I have, with experiences I hope never to have, and in most cases my two cents don't really further the discussion along.  But the topics discussed in The Study are much more subjective.


It is so much more fun for some to bash away at people they know nothing about, than to consider alternatives.


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## CoryKS (Aug 28, 2008)

Big Don said:


> It is so much more fun for some to bash away at people they know nothing about, than to consider alternatives.


 
To be fair, there's a pretty good deal of bashing coming from all sides.  Which is to be expected in an area devoted to political discussions in which people's opinions reflect their sundry experiences.  But the question seemed to insinuate that you had no business on these fora at all.  I don't agree with you on everything, but that's no reason to call for excommunication.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2008)

There are problems in all countries and many of these countries aren't run the way we would run them if we had the wherewithal to be in charge. Many countries and indeed people have political views diametrically opposite our cherished view but to constantly post on a martial arts forum criticising other countries and bringing up a hatred of socialism is very very boring. It seems sometimes the raison d'etre of BD being a member here is to solely post up diatribes against socialists, how pleasant it would be if instead there were posts on martial arts topics that we could discuss amicably and even agree on rather than being lectured at for not being a Conservative American.


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## Archangel M (Aug 28, 2008)

Education and Socialism have been bedfellows for AGES. Schools and their social engineering (vs. education in the three R's) projects ARE a valid connection.

Marxism and Humanism are the predominant philosophies of America's education system....sex education, political correctness, environmentalism, global unity, diversity training, and "higher-order thinking skills" (to become a higher order thinker, you have to believe absolutely that there are no absolutes). And that everybody must be equal and nobody can be better than anybody else (or at least take pride in the fact that they are better than everybody else). Nobody can risk getting hurt.

Lenin said: "Communism is socialism in a hurry." Socialism, therefore, is Communism by gradualism rather than by revolution. 

This social engineering is carried out under the banners of "reform" and "social justice." These innovations are in the public interest, Americans are told. They promote true democracy, humanitarianism, and, of course are "for the children." The buzzwords of socialism were and still are "social" and "democracy" (i.e. social science, social studies and socialization of the child).


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2008)

If a country votes in the party of their choice to govern them is it right then for other countries to condemn them? The OP was about an incident in an Australian school so should we be criticising something that perhaps the people there are quite happy with? It may be they aren't but knowing Australians they will sort it. What exactly has it to do with non Australians? 
We could all go through countless online newspapers and find articles with which we can ridicule other countries with but should we? isn't it a cheap way of getting a laugh or pursuing our own political agenda?


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## mook jong man (Aug 28, 2008)

Let him ridicule if he wants , over here in Australia we've got broad shoulders . 
Most Australians think the policy of that school is stupid and that the principal and the minister who approved the policy are morons. 
They were copping a bit of a hiding in the media so it wouldn't surprise me if it got overturned .


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## Gordon Nore (Aug 28, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> This has nothing to do with a "nanny state" or "socialism" as you well know, and everything to do with protecting the school from liability.  Call it what you will, that isn't socialism (nor is it capitalism for that matter).
> 
> Not every square peg in this big 'ol world will fit into the round hole of your political views.



I have to agree on this one. As an educator what I've seen progressively over years is a sense that public educational institutions are being regarded as service providers. Many parents no longer see themselves as stakeholders, but as consumers. "I paid a fee (ie. school taxes), and I expect the following."

School boards and principals are constantly fending off law suits and complaints that might become lawsuits. Administrators have good reason to be cautious. In the current litigious climate, there is plenty of blame to go around.

When I teach physical education, for instance, I have safety rules written into my lesson plans, so if -- Heaven forbid -- a child is injured, I can refer back to my plans and demonstrate that I told that child and his/per peers that safety precautions were discussed.

Do I think it's outrageous to prevent kids from doing cartwheels in the grass? Sure I do. However, I know that the first time someone gets hurt and a suit is launched, several staff in that school are going to spend weeks in court, not the classroom, fighting it.


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## Big Don (Aug 28, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> If a country votes in the party of their choice to govern them is it right then for other countries to condemn them?


Voting to give up your rights, smart people...


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## shesulsa (Aug 28, 2008)

Big Don said:


> Voting to give up your rights, smart people...


Oh that is SO going on my siggy.


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## Brian King (Aug 28, 2008)

_Pardon me, while I interrupt the sniping and bickering to post on the topic and not the posters._ 

*CoryKS wrote*


> From Brian's article:
> Quote:
> The league has offered to let Jericho play other positions or *pitch for more advanced leagues* but Jericho's parents want to keep him where he is.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you and think that would have been the best solution for next year, but this year I think that the officials should have told the mothering smothering parents that were whining to baseball up and let their boys be boys, to let them learn the lessons that sports teach. I do not believe that sports contests build character but more that they demonstrate the character that is built learning and practicing the game. Some great life lessons may have been learned. It might be the only time in these young boys life that they will be the best at something, perhaps some youngster would have hit off him and would have had that memory perhaps for a lifetime, some other youngster might have looked at this little pitcher and thought to himself that if he can do it I can as well, a team might have learned that good teamwork can best even a strong performance by an individual. Life isnt ever fair, instead of learning how to overcome lifes challenges these young people learned how to give up and go to the authorities demanding fairness. Iron sharpens iron is a lesson not cheaply bought and all involved instead settled for mediocrity. It really is a shame in my opinion. 

Until parents quit being over protective (in my opinion they are so to make up for guilt at their inattention to their childs real needs). Until people in authority develop the backbone to tell the parents no, the situations such as the anti cartwheels, removing playground equipment from playground, and banning children from playing with other children cause they are better than others will not only continue but will grow even more ridiculous

Regards
Brian King

_Ok you all that should know better can go back to your bickering and cross thread back and forth sniping._


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## Makalakumu (Aug 29, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Education and Socialism have been bedfellows for AGES. Schools and their social engineering (vs. education in the three R's) projects ARE a valid connection.
> 
> Marxism and Humanism are the predominant philosophies of America's education system....sex education, political correctness, environmentalism, global unity, diversity training, and "higher-order thinking skills" (to become a higher order thinker, you have to believe absolutely that there are no absolutes). And that everybody must be equal and nobody can be better than anybody else (or at least take pride in the fact that they are better than everybody else). Nobody can risk getting hurt.
> 
> ...


 
I think the run of the mill liberal has a lot to learn from your post, because a lot of what you say is true.  I've done a lot of research in this area and I can tell you from what I know that education across the world was shaped and is being shaped by individuals with very specific social engineering agendas.  

However, it's not a socialist phenomenon.  "Socialism" as we know it, isn't a socialist phenomenon.  All of this becomes apparent when you become an education researcher.  When you start asking where certain ideas come from.  When you start wondering how this or that trend started.  When you start to beat your head against the wall and ask why our schools are actually hurting children.  You find that there is a select group of foundations that all of the top education schools bow down to...because they have the money for "research".  Henceforth, all of the smaller education institutions bow down to them...because now they have the money.  And so the **** rolls down hill.

Who runs the major non-profit foundations?  Corporations, banks, and financial institutions...a global superclass looking to shape society to fit its needs.  In most industrialized countries, the current form of education is between 100 and 150 years old.  Less so for Aussies and Kiwis but they just copied and pasted.

Republicans and Democrats look like they work against each other in regards to education, but they are actually collaborating on keeping the system "broken".  Unions are a problem because they protect crappy teachers and prevent competion.  Standardized tests are a problem because every student is different and they are designed to make everyone uniform.

It's a classic left/right synthesis.  Beware of the middle.

Both Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, in the US, had good ideas regarding education, that's why they aren't candidates.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> Let him ridicule if he wants , over here in Australia we've got broad shoulders .
> Most Australians think the policy of that school is stupid and that the principal and the minister who approved the policy are morons.
> They were copping a bit of a hiding in the media so it wouldn't surprise me if it got overturned .


 
Exactly! The Aussies will sort it no worries! And it's up to them after all! I've found Australians to be very down to earth with common sense so I'm sure it will get overturned.
I don't think there's personal sniping here so much as the OP says this problem is all down to socialism and there are some who refute this obviously.


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Point #1 - While I think that this is stupid....I see the need for it. In fact, I would submit that rules like this exist because of the parents, not the school administration. We now live in a society where a teacher, school district and state can and WILL be sued if a teacher hurts a child's feelings. The school has the right and responsibility to protect itself from lawsuits. There was once a time when we were governed by reason and common sense...and more importantly a sense of responsibility (i.e. if your child does a cartwheel, falls and hurts him/herself....it is THEIR OWN FAULT, not the school's). But no more...now we live in a world where if you make a stupid mistake, you can use the courts to get someone else to pay for it.


 


jkembry said:


> Exactly...that is what the world has come to. The lawyers have brainwashed us into suing for every little thing. What the heck...accidents will happen and that is all they are...accidents.
> 
> I remember in grade school breaking my arm while playing pilot off the swingset. The school nurse got me to hospital and parents was called. There was no malice on the school's part...just me being a kid and being dumb...No lawyers involved. I recovered just fine and actually continued to play on the swings with a little better respect. Basically, it was a plain old accident.
> 
> The lawyers have our brains twisted into believing there is no such thing as an accident...there is always someone at fault that has to pay. Pure greed...in my opinion. And it takes away the ability of a kid to be a kid.


 
I wonder if the school system ever did a study on the number of accidents that happen with schools sports?  I mean, I'm sure injuries have happened with those activities.  Are people sueing if they do happen?  But I agree with the 2 posters I quoted above...people sue at the drop of a hat.  Even with something simple such as falling from the swings, I can just hear the parents and lawyers now..."Well, you know, the school should have made sure that each and every child on the playground was safe and free from any danger."


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## CoryKS (Aug 29, 2008)

Brian said:


> I agree with you and think that would have been the best solution for next year, but this year I think that the officials should have told the mothering smothering parents that were whining to baseball up and let their boys be boys, to let them learn the lessons that sports teach. I do not believe that sports contests build character but more that they demonstrate the character that is built learning and practicing the game. Some great life lessons may have been learned. It might be the only time in these young boys life that they will be the best at something, perhaps some youngster would have hit off him and would have had that memory perhaps for a lifetime, some other youngster might have looked at this little pitcher and thought to himself that if he can do it I can as well, a team might have learned that good teamwork can best even a strong performance by an individual. Life isnt ever fair, instead of learning how to overcome lifes challenges these young people learned how to give up and go to the authorities demanding fairness. Iron sharpens iron is a lesson not cheaply bought and all involved instead settled for mediocrity. It really is a shame in my opinion.


 
All good points.  There are definitely lessons to be learned here, not least is the lesson that sometimes you are going to lose most, if not all, of your games.  We could call it the KC Royals Guide of Life.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2008)

I don't suppose anyone thought that perhaps they were banned from doing cartwheels in the playground for a perfectly good safety reasons?
We're all jumping on the bandwagon saying it's morally wrong but it could actually be as simple as the fact the concrete was too rough or the kids were too near a fence, the kids doing cartwheels were bashing into other kids or a thousand other quite believable and valid reasons.
It maybe that someone is making political capital out of this for their own agenda. Who knows? It's a one sided story we have from one newspaper clip, perhaps someone from Oz has a fuller story about it with all side's views? if it turns out that is someone being PC perhaps we can see who.


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