# When do you bow? Why do you bow?



## mastercole (Feb 7, 2012)

In your Taekwondo school, when do you bow and why do you bow?

Thanks


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 7, 2012)

We bow when we enter the dojang  and when we leave (to show respect for the area in which we train). We also line up at the start of class in order of rank and the highest ranking student (6th dan in my class), says (phoentically), "chariot goonyeah" and we all bow to the instructor to basically say "thank you for taking the class", the class ends the same way. Anytime the GM enters the room, we stop what we are doing instantly and bow, and before grading evrybody bows to the GM. Other than that we do not bow except for if we pass a dan grading our GM hands us the certificate and we bow to him and shake his hand korean style (where the hand you are not shaking with grips the wrist of the shaking hand, if that makes any sense). Upon receiving both my black belt and my 1st dan, I also turned to my instructor and bowed in his direction after bowing to the GM, most people dont do this but I did it as a sign of respect to my week in/week out instructor who trained me to that level.


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## mastercole (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks for the info. Do you salute or bow to any type of national flags, etc?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 7, 2012)

mastercole said:


> In your Taekwondo school, when do you bow and why do you bow?



We bow as a mark of respect and friendly greeting in the culture of the art we do.

We bow when entering the training hall if a senior grade is there (generally aimed at the most senior in the room).  We don't bow to them if we first see them not in the training hall (e.g. in the changing room or lobby).  We bow at the start of class to the instructor (called by the most senior student) and we bow at the end of the class to the instructor then the most senior student.

If someone senior to the current instructor enters the room we all are called to a stop and bow to that person.

We bow to our partner before/after drills, but only when changing partners - what I mean is that if you're with the same person for the whole class you'll bow to them once at the start and once at the end, not between each drill.  If you change partners after each drill you bow at the start and end of each drill to each partner. *

Like Ralph we also bow the same to the examiner after gradings (although we tend to shake hands with the left hand palm down under the right elbow rather than the wrist, the same way we receive something from any senior, e.g. a paddle).

* I'm particularly anal about this!  On occasions when students forget or are "away with the fairies" while everyone else is bowing I take that opportunity to remind everyone that their training partner is putting themselves at risk (of injury) to help them learn/practice and the least we can do is give them a friendly bow as a non-verbal thank you before and afterwards.  It's a particular bugbear of mine (as is bowing and trying to keep your eyes on your opponent, Bruce Lee really did put some silly thoughts in people's heads with that one). If students want to quickly shake hands/bump fists after a drill/sparring round I'm OK with that, but anything done like that is in addition to the bow.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 7, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Thanks for the info. Do you salute or bow to any type of national flags, etc?



I wouldn't salute them (because I'm not military and we just don't do that in the UK).  I would probably bow to them (if they were the Union Flag or Taegeukgi, not likely to bow to other countries' flags unless in their country), but we don't have any hanging at our hall and haven't been to a hall that did in many years.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 7, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Thanks for the info. Do you salute or bow to any type of national flags, etc?


No, we dont have much to do with the flag generally. From memory, the korean flag is on grading cards, certificates and club embroided banner that hangs at demos and gradings and anything official. We never actually bow to the flag though.


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I wouldn't salute them (because I'm not military and we just don't do that in the UK). I would probably bow to them (if they were the Union Flag or Taegeukgi, not likely to bow to other countries' flags unless in their country), but we don't have any hanging at our hall and haven't been to a hall that did in many years.



Military here don't salute the flag, they will salute the 'Colours' though whatever they may be ie flag, drum, guns etc.

.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 7, 2012)

We bow toward the Flags at the doorway when entering and leaving the training floor. We also salute the flag (Hand over the heart) as part of the class opening and closing. We bow to the instructor as part of class opening and closing, and to the Senior student at the closing. We bow to training partner during certain formal drills and before and after formal sparring matches.

The why is to show respect for the art, gym, country, and trasining partners.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 7, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Military here don't salute the flag, they will salute the 'Colours' though whatever they may be ie flag, drum, guns etc.



Just to be clear, when I said "I wouldn't salute them (because I'm not military and we just don't do that in the UK)" what I meant was that I wouldn't salute them because I'm not military and that UK civilians just don't do that as opposed to the US where they do a sort of salute (hand over the heart thing) even if they're not military personnel; not that the UK military don't do it.  The "we" meant "UK civilians".

I don't know which way you took it, but when I re-read it with your reply I realised it could have come across either way.

In any case, thank you for the information.


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## Carol (Feb 7, 2012)

True, we [American civilians] salute our flag on formal occasions by putting the right hand over the heart.  This is the main reason why I don't particularly care for the practice of bowing to flags as a training ritual (in country).


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## dancingalone (Feb 7, 2012)

My dojang has the US and South Korea flags hanging in a place of honor, similar to the 'shomen' in Japanese styles.  The custom when starting class is to bow first to the flags, then to any parents and family members that might be watching the class, then to the class instructor and to the yudanja.  The same exercise in the same sequence is also performed at the end of class.

It is different from what I am used to, but I don't see a reason to alter the custom as a newcomer.  I imagine it is a type of nod to the Hwarang-Do Meng Sae (sp?).


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## sfs982000 (Feb 7, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> We bow toward the Flags at the doorway when entering and leaving the training floor. We also salute the flag (Hand over the heart) as part of the class opening and closing. We bow to the instructor as part of class opening and closing, and to the Senior student at the closing. We bow to training partner during certain formal drills and before and after formal sparring matches.
> 
> The why is to show respect for the art, gym, country, and trasining partners.




That is exactly how we do it in our school.  Just out of curiousity, in addition to bowing, does anyone else also recite school oaths or anything else of that nature before or after training?


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## Manny (Feb 7, 2012)

I bow getting inside the dojang, just in front the offcie where a sambonims is, it could be my master or my master's wife (5th dan) and always poletilely I say Good evening! May I come in?, then I proced to bow to the mat where my master and my students are training and then again I ask permition, my master bows and then we shake hands, I get inside the locker room and change clothes, then when I am going to enter the mat I bow and ask permition to get in. We bow at the flags at the begining and at the end of the class. Everitime I get out or get in the mat I bow and aks permition.

Leaving the dojang I bow to the offcie and bow when closing the door.

Manny


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Just to be clear, when I said "I wouldn't salute them (because I'm not military and we just don't do that in the UK)" what I meant was that I wouldn't salute them because I'm not military and that UK civilians just don't do that as opposed to the US where they do a sort of salute (hand over the heart thing) even if they're not military personnel; not that the UK military don't do it. The "we" meant "UK civilians".
> 
> I don't know which way you took it, but when I re-read it with your reply I realised it could have come across either way.
> 
> In any case, thank you for the information.



I think in the UK a flag is just a piece of material with nice colours on, which is probably why we don't get miffed when people burn it etc. We use flags as decorations, clothing (a la Scary Spice's) dress, cushions, bags, well you name it we'll use it. We've put up flags in our dojo as we've moved into a new building given to us by the army which was condemned, it's ok but the walls need covering up until we can do it ourselves with plywood so we have a few flags up, we have the Brazilian, Japanese, Korean, Help for Heroes, Canadian ( 'borrowed' when Jock Guards went on exercise there) Scottish and a Union flag. We don't salute any of them though, just for decoration. If someone sends us an American flag it'll go up to lol!

 I read your post as meaning civvies don't and the military does here!


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## Archtkd (Feb 7, 2012)

mastercole said:


> In your Taekwondo school, when do you bow and why do you bow?
> 
> Thanks



In our dojang we bow to the flags and teacher before class; to the teacher and each other after class. Juniors are also encourage to bow to seniors after class, or if they meet them before class. This we do as a sign of respect and greeting. My feeling is that we should bow to people and not to objects, so I'm thinking of elimating the bowing to flags, which are behind the instructor position. The bowing to the flags, I've always thought, is not really a Korean martial arts custom, but one that many countries may have adopted and copied from militaries and other nations.


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## TKDinAK (Feb 7, 2012)

mastercole said:


> In your Taekwondo school, when do you bow and why do you bow?
> 
> Thanks



During a normal class:

After lining up according to rank and stating the Pledge of Allegiance and the tenets, we bow to the instructor opening class.

If sparring, we bow to our partner at the beginning and at the end of the match.

At the end of class, after lining up, we bow to the highest ranking color belt, and then the highest ranking BB.

We always bow to the dojang whenever entering or exiting the training floor. We always pause to bow to and when a highest rank enters the training floor.

We also follow a more formal etiquette during tests and seminars and such... but my instructor is pretty loose and easy going for the most part, so he doesn't run his classes with a lot of real strict formality. I have noticed that the advanced classes, and the BB's, are held to a higher degree of formality.


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## mastercole (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. 

Another question.  Do you think that Taekwondo has it's own type of bowing/saluting set of guidelines or do you feel Taekwondo has no set guidelines and just naturally follows Korean custom?


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## TKDinAK (Feb 7, 2012)

Forgot to add...

I bow because of respect.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 7, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> Another question.  Do you think that Taekwondo has it's own type of bowing/saluting set of guidelines or do you feel Taekwondo has no set guidelines and just naturally follows Korean custom?


Based on what Ive seen, there was a hell of a lot more bowing when I did karate. We had to bow before aproaching a senior, bow once finished talking to them, bow at flags, we had to bow to every black belt who caught our eye etc, I nearly did a back injury from all the bowing. Tkd seems a lot more laid back, but thats just my experience.


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## masterchase (Feb 8, 2012)

we bow when we enter the dojang/training area.

At the beginning of class we bow to the flags (US & So. Korean), and then recite the chungdokwan oath.
and then Bow to the instructor.
Students then bow to the highest ranking student.

and then all through class as training partners change there is bowing.

and then at the end of class, bow to the flags, instructor and highest ranking student....  and then one more bow as we exit the training area.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 8, 2012)

TKDinAK said:


> Forgot to add...
> 
> I bow because of respect.


To show...


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 13, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> We bow toward the Flags at the doorway when entering and leaving the training floor. We also salute the flag (Hand over the heart) as part of the class opening and closing. We bow to the instructor as part of class opening and closing, and to the Senior student at the closing. We bow to training partner during certain formal drills and before and after formal sparring matches.
> 
> The why is to show respect for the art, gym, country, and trasining partners.



This is exaxctly what we do, and why. 
I know nothing is universal, but this seems to be the custom in every school I've ever been in, either as student or visitor.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

masterchase said:


> At the beginning of class we bow to the flags (US & So. Korean), and then recite the chungdokwan oath. and then Bow to the instructor.



What is the explanation for reciting the Chung Do Kwan membership oath at the beginning of each class? Where and when did that tradition start for your organization?


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## TaekwonPRO (Feb 13, 2012)

When an instructor enters, when class starts and ends, at the end of a form, and before sparring.


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## Buka (Feb 13, 2012)

We bow to each other out of respect. 

Been bowing to the flag of my country to start and end every class for forty years.


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## masterchase (Feb 15, 2012)

> What is the explanation for reciting the Chung Do Kwan membership oath at the beginning of each class? Where and when did that tradition start for your organization?


Explanation:  We recite it because we are Chung Do Kwan.
When:  My instructor re-united with his original Osan AFB instructor in 1986 and he (GM Tae Sung Lee) said that we should be saying the oath.   
Where: My instructor went to Korea to meet with him, and soon after we were reciting the oath.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2012)

masterchase said:


> Explanation:  We recite it because we are Chung Do Kwan. When:  My instructor re-united with his original Osan AFB instructor in 1986 and he (GM Tae Sung Lee) said that we should be saying the oath.   Where: My instructor went to Korea to meet with him, and soon after we were reciting the oath.



I spoke to GM LEE Won Kuk about the oath. He said that when he was in charge, the Chung Do Kwan membership oath was something that was signed, not spoken at the beginning of class. When I mentioned that many dojang recite the oath before class, his response was that wasn't how he did it.


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## mastercole (Feb 15, 2012)

puunui said:


> I spoke to GM LEE Won Kuk about the oath. He said that when he was in charge, the Chung Do Kwan membership oath was something that was signed, not spoken at the beginning of class. When I mentioned that many dojang recite the oath before class, his response was that wasn't how he did it.



The Jidokwan member pledge is written on the old member card. I don't think it was ever recited by members.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2012)

mastercole said:


> The Jidokwan member pledge is written on the old member card. I don't think it was ever recited by members.



I don't think that there is anything particularly wrong with reciting a member pledge at the beginning of class. But I don't want people thinking that is how it was always done, when it wasn't. The Chung Do Kwan membership oath was like a signed contract between the Chung Do Kwan and the new member. GM Lee said that he approved the removal of GM SON Duk Sung as Chung Do Kwan Jang because he violated that signed membership oath. I have a copy of the report that was sent to GM Lee written by GM HYUN Jong Myung on GM Son's removal proceedings. Many of the seniors initialed the report, but not GM Son.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> In your Taekwondo school, when do you bow and why do you bow?
> 
> Thanks


Though not currently active in taekwondo, I do teach geomdo at a TKD/HKD school. My bowing in is the same as it was in all of the TKD schools where I have trained and the same as the TKD/HKD students do where I teach.

We bow when stepping onto or off of the training floor. 

A normal class goes as follows:

The class is lined up and both myself and my students face the flags (One Korean, one United States) and we all bow together. I then turn to face my students and we bow to each other.  I have students recite the school creed mainly because it is the school's practice; I am not big on recitation of creeds and such, but as it is not my school, I adhere to the customs.  At the end of class, the process is the same, except that after the class and I bow to each other, I have mudanja turn and face any yudanja and they bow to each other.  This is followed by a hand shake with each student and then we bow before stepping off of the training floor.

Additionally, if the school owner, Master Disney is present, I stop class and have them bow to her if she steps onto the training floor.


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## DMcHenry (Feb 19, 2012)

I remember when a Korean Grandmaster was watching the beginning of a class (it was a seminar), he asked why everyone bowed to the flag.  His statement was "you salute flags, you bow to people", which made sense to me.


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

DMcHenry said:


> I remember when a Korean Grandmaster was watching the beginning of a class (it was a seminar), he asked why everyone bowed to the flag.  His statement was "you salute flags, you bow to people", which made sense to me.



I've come to the conclusion that there is no agreement or standard on this. I have bowed and saluted flags, depending on the instructor. I think it is best that we simply follow the customs of whoever is in charge and do it their way.


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## Buka (Feb 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> I've come to the conclusion that there is no agreement or standard on this. I have bowed and saluted flags, depending on the instructor. I think it is best that we simply follow the customs of whoever is in charge and do it their way.



What he said. ^^^^


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 21, 2012)

But.. I have saluted people AND flags!!!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 22, 2012)

puunui said:


> I've come to the conclusion that there is no agreement or standard on this. I have bowed and saluted flags, depending on the instructor. I think it is best that we simply follow the customs of whoever is in charge and do it their way.



To my mind, a bow is nothing more (or less) than a form of salute. In the boy scouts, you're taught to salute with two fingers to the brow. In the American military, it's a ridgehand to the brow (careful!!!). In the roman army, it was a fist over the heart. In the MA, it's a bow. 

They're all just various ways of showing respect.


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## puunui (Feb 23, 2012)

Just reviewed the KTA Code of Etiquette, which was published in I want to say the 1995 edition of the Kukkiwon Textbook. It talks about bowing: 

*

Taekwondo Bow and Upright Posture:                In an attention posture, one bows the head by 45 degrees. The upper                body should bend at the waist by 15 degrees. The back soles of both                feet stick together firmly. 
​ Bowing while sitting on the floor                of the dojang, in a room, or living room: If a senior is seated,                one should kneel down and bow. When a senior enters, one should                rise up, showing courtesy by standing upright, and then kneels down                to bow before the senior. If one is to serve as a member of attendants,                he should all the time keep following the senior. When entering                a room, an attendant guides the senior and stops for a while at                the door so that the senior may pass in front of him to step aside,                and then immediately follows the senior from behind. If the senior is to be seated, the attendant                must first watch the place to sit down to ensure the senior will                be seated at ease. Even during a meeting, the attendant should always                keep watching the senior from his position to be able to respond                quickly to any sign of help by the senior. When a senior talks,                one should take an attitude of listening carefully, let alone paying                a careful attention even to a junior's words. 

*

Norms of conduct at the dojang: Upon                entering the dojang, one must first *salute the national flag (by                laying the right hand on the left side of the chest) *and then to                his seniors in rank order. Inside the dojang, one must try to create                an atmosphere of quietness and solemnity. The dobok must be always                treated dearly. It is advised not to go out of the dojang in the                dobok except in the case of urgence. Inside the dojang, one must                use polite language towards the head of the dojang, instructors                and his seniors in rank, regardless of their age. 

*

http://academy.grandmastervohra.net/master.php?page=etiquette.htm​


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