# when is time to learn the FORMS? is this the right way to begin with WC?



## sciuf (Jan 22, 2016)

hi guys, sorry but im new and i've just done my first 2 free lessons of wing chun.. not a truly scholl or gym.
Before start to pay i wanna ask you if it's normal that we did not stretching and after a poor explanation about footwork and balance i had to "chain punches" as 1rst lesson.
On the 2nd almost the same adding some random move and some minutes of first form ( i had to try follow others) while master (6 years of training, not even black belt) continued until the "knife" form...
im very sceptical about this.. i tought that and read somewhere that for the first 6/12 months you need practise 1° form,then 2° too, after more practise the 3°.. at the fifth-sixth year the wood dummy and reach the "knives" just after 15-20 years of training.. there's noone else where i live to learn except internet ^^" and by the way we are 2 guys interest in practise!
Can you clearify me something? links books images your post everything..
thank you very much guys for gave me some of your time


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## Phobius (Jan 22, 2016)

Looking ahead should not damage you in any way.

Focus on the first form, and use the other forms to not let your body become too static. Many people stand still and focus on first form, and forget that WC requires a lot of movement.

I believe that forms should be introduced earlier than what they are currently on most schools. Focus however should still be mostly in the order you mention.

If you want to train WC and have no other school, hang in there. Learn the form, go home. Do the form until you feel it is as you want it to be. Then show to your teacher, take his inputs. Go home and improve.

Once he starts getting uninterested in seeing your form you can move on to train the next at home.... Older forms you already learnt, just do them now once a day and have focus on the new form youre learning.

It should get to you with time.


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## sciuf (Jan 22, 2016)

i see so if he uses knives maybe he's right in doing that even if i read that is just for master who practised a lot u mean, and maybe even if he forgot to say to go little back with the head while throwing a punch or to keep the knees closer to prevent low kicks ( read in the book) he is not an impostor.. ah another question.. is it fine if he ask money for get belts too? i mean the exams
keep on at home and then let him correct me is the best way that i can do at the moment so !


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## Phobius (Jan 22, 2016)

Do not get me wrong, I am not saying he is the real deal.

And forms are not readable at first, therefore doing them does not harm you. The only thing that will happend is you remember a select pattern.

The thing that states if he is a real teacher, is how he teaches you the meaning of each form. Something which is rather hard to judge already after a day or two of practise. All, frauds or not, will seem like they know something to a beginner.

BTW, have never heard of belts in WC. Besides if he is not a technician what good does the grades do? It is not like he can grade you anyway, personally.

Unless of course he has some private school grade which holds absolutely no value to anyone outside of your school.

And many teachers charge for grading on lower levels at least. It takes time to invest in new beginners and far from always do the teacher get something out of that investment. By charging at least it makes it worth his time.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 22, 2016)

I have never come across a black belt in Wing Chun. There are no belt ranks in Traditional Chinese martial arts.

What Wing Chun I trained always started with learning Siu Nim Tao. and got into a little Chi Sau. After that would have been (if I had continued) Chum Kiu, then Biu Tze. And of course Chi Sau. As to when wooden dummie, butterfly knives and staff show up, you will need to have someone with more back ground in Wing Chun than I.

Foot work was not even duiscussed in the beginning with Siu Nim Tao, nor where chain punches


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## geezer (Jan 22, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Foot work was not even duiscussed in the beginning with Siu Nim Tao, nor where chain punches



I start beginners with the opening sequence of SNT(through the left and right sun-punches) and really focus on the stance. We also cover (very roughly) chain punching and a simplified "advancing step" (front step). We close with an application or two strictly as an example of how the system can work.
Others may teach more or less. It really doesn't matter that much since _you have to hang around a good long time for any of it to be meaningful._

_@Phobius: _The terms _technician_ and _practician_ only have meaning in "WT" circles and their offshoots. And here in the States, other branches of WC easily outnumber "WT" schools (even if you include offshoots, or "rebel groups" such as EBMAS, City Wing Tsun, Bay Mountain WC, NVTO, Tsom Tsom WT, etc. etc.).


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## Danny T (Jan 22, 2016)

With us beginners start on the first part on SNT through the vertical punches. Stance, hip position, using the elbow to push or pull the forearm. Wall bag punching, making the fist, abduction of the wrist for penetration, and cycling the wrist on the center line. Then from standing in the YJKYM the work on using a particular structure for some type of application. Ie. pak sao to the centerline, pak sao/punch combination, and finally a pak/punch single beat action. From there we build on understanding the movements and structures as they continue to learn the rest SNT.


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## Phobius (Jan 22, 2016)

geezer said:


> _@Phobius: _The terms _technician_ and _practician_ only have meaning in "WT" circles and their offshoots. And here in the States, other branches of WC easily outnumber "WT" schools (even if you include offshoots, or "rebel groups" such as EBMAS, City Wing Tsun, Bay Mountain WC, NVTO, Tsom Tsom WT, etc. etc.).



You are of course right, it is just a force of habit as my mind is so set on WT wordings.


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## yak sao (Jan 22, 2016)

Forms are very important. But as forms are something that can, and should, be trained at home, we don't spend a lot of time during class on them. We open each class with SNT(and CK depending on who's there), some corrections are made, a few key points brought up and then we move on to 2 man work.

The 2 man drills we do are level specific. It might be something as simple as standing in a character two stance across from your partner practicing pak dar, while others may be practicing dan chi sau, lat sau programs or chi sau.

OK, that's 8 or 9 responses that have to deal with the OP, someone needs to come in and derail this thing and start an argument before we lose our (recent) reputation here on MT.


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## Danny T (Jan 22, 2016)

yak sao said:


> Forms are very important. But as forms are something that can, and should, be trained at home, we don't spend a lot of time during class on them. We open each class with SNT(and CK depending on who's there), some corrections are made, a few key points brought up and then we move on to 2 man work.
> 
> The 2 man drills we do are level specific. It might be something as simple as standing in a character two stance across from your partner practicing pak dar, while others may be practicing dan chi sau, lat sau programs or chi sau.
> 
> OK, that's 8 or 9 responses that have to deal with the OP, someone needs to come in and derail this thing and start an argument before we lose our (recent) reputation here on MT.


Well I wasn't going to say anything but being you brought it up... 
It is obvious that My response was the best and you others don't know what you are talking about and what you are doing may be Your wing chun but it isn't Wing Chun.


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## Bonesetter (Jan 22, 2016)

I was taught the first section of SNT in the first month or two and it took about 6 months to learn the whole form from start to finish. During the 6 months or so we would practice the usual two man drills, punching and single arm chi sau.

Once competent we moved on to CK, double arm chi Sao and so on.

I think it's important to have an understanding and solid foundation in each stage of your training before moving on to the next form.

How many people do you see practicing CK who you could just push over with one hand.

As others have posted though depending on who is in class depends on what gets practiced.

It's often good to show beginners a part of the dummy or some pole exercises to keep them interested.


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## yak sao (Jan 22, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Well I wasn't going to say anything but being you brought it up...
> It is obvious that My response was the best and you others don't know what you are talking about and what you are doing may be Your wing chun but it isn't Wing Chun.



There are so many things wrong with your argument I don't even know where to start so I will now resort to  name calling .......
Booger head


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 22, 2016)

yak sao said:


> There are so many things wrong with your argument I don't even know where to start so I will now resort to  name calling .......
> Booger head



Both of you quiet down or I swear I will derail this into a internal vs external thread 

I am far from an expert... heck, who am I trying to kid... I'm far from a novice in Wing Chun, but it is interesting to read what others do. The last time I did any wing chun it was mostly chi sau with little work on forms. But then I was training with a bunch of advanced guys who already knew the forms.


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## Danny T (Jan 22, 2016)

yak sao said:


> There are so many things wrong with your argument I don't even know where to start so I will now resort to  name calling .......
> Booger head


WHAT!!! Why I never...
You are totally the hind side of a donkey and if you don't apologize I'm starting in with Yo Mama truths.


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## ShortBridge (Jan 22, 2016)

I've trained in 2 Wing Chun lineages and the way that they each deal with beginners is quite different. I can see the merits and limitations of each process, but the point is that there are different ways to get to the same (approximate) place. We spend a lot of time in Wing Chun looking for the one true, pure and orthodox way, but I think that's a bit of a trap (sic).

So, if you're just starting out, I wouldn't question the method too much. Give it some time and see if it feels like it's headed somewhere for you.

That said, in 18 years or so of Wing Chun classes, I've never seen anyone whip out the butterfly swords in a beginner/general class. Seems a bit odd to me, but...I'll fall back on my original statement.


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## wckf92 (Jan 23, 2016)

sciuf said:


> ..... while master (6 years of training, not even black belt)


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## sciuf (Jan 23, 2016)

ahah thank you all guys, i see many point of view now, and i understood that the belt system is just a thing to make some money.. i will just dont care so much xD
keep on training(home/"gym") and hoping to learn something.. then i will move too australia soon (2-3 months) and maybe there (where there are more than 20k people around) i will find a "regoular" scholl


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## Marnetmar (Jan 27, 2016)

We're what many might consider to be "Heretics" in the Wing Chun world. We start out with the concepts of Tan, Bong, Fook, Jum, Gan, Biu, Man, Wu, elbows and straight punches, etc in a quasi-san sik fashion and some basic footwork theory, and THEN start learning the forms.


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## KPM (Jan 28, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> We're what many might consider to be "Heretics" in the Wing Chun world. We start out with the concepts of Tan, Bong, Fook, Jum, Gan, Biu, Man, Wu, elbows and straight punches, etc in a quasi-san sik fashion and some basic footwork theory, and THEN start learning the forms.



Sounds a lot like Pin Sun!


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## geezer (Jan 28, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> We're what many might consider to be "Heretics" in the Wing Chun world. We start out with the concepts of Tan, Bong, Fook, Jum, Gan, Biu, Man, Wu, elbows and straight punches, etc in a quasi-san sik fashion and some basic footwork theory, and THEN start learning the forms.



That's absolutely_ wrong_. Seriously. If you do it_ that _way, you will never understand the cohesion and coherence of the _real _system ....like the way we do things. But if you think your way has any justification whatsoever, you need to explain it in excruciating detail, in no less than two or three pages of print. If you are lucky, I will skim over what you post and then dismiss everything you say. Then I will invite you to study with any branch of _our_ system so you can be enlightened, _you benighted fool. 

_
OK. I'm kidding. Thanks for the informative post.


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## yak sao (Jan 28, 2016)

You forgot the part about lying parasite.......sheesh, get it right!


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## punisher73 (Feb 15, 2016)

Out of curiousity, do you mean actual "belts" like in karate or do they use "sashes"?  Belts like in karate would be VERY odd, but many kung fu styles use sashes to denote their rank and are colored in the same manner.


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