# Kenpo Sticks



## HKphooey (Apr 10, 2006)

Just curious as to how many kenpo artist out there work with the sticks or take another art the uses the sticks.  If another style, what style?  And do you find usiing your kenpo material with stick(s) in hand and effective form of defense?  Do you find the two blend well together?

Form 7 teaches us to incorporate the sticks into our existing kenpo techniques, but I was wondering if any of you work on other training with the sticks.


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## MJS (Apr 10, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> Just curious as to how many kenpo artist out there work with the sticks or take another art the uses the sticks. If another style, what style?


 
Modern Arnis. Personally, I think that these 2 arts blend very nice!!




> And do you find usiing your kenpo material with stick(s) in hand and effective form of defense? Do you find the two blend well together?
> 
> Form 7 teaches us to incorporate the sticks into our existing kenpo techniques, but I was wondering if any of you work on other training with the sticks.


 
I picked up these tapes:

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=104

On the 2nd tape, he is using a blade and a stick (not at the same time) to show how they can be applied to the empty hand techniques. Definately some nasty stuff when he gets to the blade work!

Mike


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## Carol (Apr 10, 2006)

I do some stickwork, although we do it largely as part of black belt club  (outside the normal class material.)

I've done largely some basic stuff... different hammering and whipping motions, but I find them to be a lot of fun to work with.


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## Doc (Apr 10, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> Just curious as to how many kenpo artist out there work with the sticks or take another art the uses the sticks.  If another style, what style?  And do you find usiing your kenpo material with stick(s) in hand and effective form of defense?  Do you find the two blend well together?
> 
> Form 7 teaches us to incorporate the sticks into our existing kenpo techniques, but I was wondering if any of you work on other training with the sticks.


Modern Arnis or almost any FMA would be superior to what most know as "Form 7," which was never designed to be functional except on a very limited basis. It was designed for competition, not function.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 11, 2006)

It's redundant, but,........FMA's.


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## HKphooey (Apr 11, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Modern Arnis or almost any FMA would be superior to what most know as "Form 7," which was never designed to be functional except on a very limited basis. It was designed for competition, not function.


 
I will disagree with that (but as always, value each person's opinion).  The base of form seven is standard kenpo techniques, and the stick is just an extension of the empty hand - so how can that not be functional?  That would be mean the techniques are not functional.  I look at form seven as taking something I have already trained with for years and placing a stick(s) in my hand.  Once you have the stick in hand, some modifications need to be made to distance and angles of attack.  Now learning Modern Arnis, I do see some of the problems with how the stick is held and the strickes are executed.


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## KenpoDave (Apr 11, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> I will disagree with that (but as always, value each person's opinion). The base of form seven is standard kenpo techniques, and the stick is just an extension of the empty hand - so how can that not be functional? That would be mean the techniques are not functional. I look at form seven as taking something I have already trained with for years and placing a stick(s) in my hand. Once you have the stick in hand, some modifications need to be made to distance and angles of attack. Now learning Modern Arnis, I do see some of the problems with how the stick is held and the strickes are executed.


 
Well, based on your words here, if Modern Arnis is correct, then #7 is teaching you how to hold the sticks incorrectly and execute strikes incorrectly.  I would not call that functional.


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## HKphooey (Apr 11, 2006)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Well, based on your words here, if Modern Arnis is correct, then #7 is teaching you how to hold the sticks incorrectly and execute strikes incorrectly. I would not call that functional.


 
Agreed.    I use the form only as a base to now work my FMA training into my kenpo. I may have read too much into Doc's comment ("never designed to be functional except on a very limited basis").  So I guess by incorporating the my FMA training I have made it effective IMO.

Not looking to push #7 here.  More curious as to who/how the sticka arts are blended into people's training.


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## Brian Jones (Apr 11, 2006)

I do both Modern Arnis and the AKKI stick/club material.  They blend very well.  That being said I want to point out that I began Modern Arnis not becuase the Kenpo stick work is not sufficient. I wantedanother perspecitve to make my stick work better, and to help me see better what is in the Kenpo material.  Of ocurse Modern Arnis is not just "stick work" it is a comprehensive martial art).
   And while this is not a thread on form 7, since you asked about stick work, I have to say I agree with Dr. Chapel.

Brian Jones


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## Blindside (Apr 11, 2006)

This is an old (2002!) post regarding kenpo clubs and Form 7 by Doc (just so he doesn't have to repeat himself. 

full thread at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2473&page=5

Excerpt:
Quote:
_Originally posted by Blindside _

*This may be an aside, but if the definition of the club is something "that you wouldn't want to drop on your foot." How do you explain the club form. I've heard that the "kenpo club" is different than an escrima stick because it is tailored to you.... yada yada yada. Dr. Chapel, your definition is significantly different than most, and honestly one that I buy more than most. If so, why did (or did he) Mr. Parker call the sticks used in Form 7 kenpo clubs?

Anyone?

Lamont *

Sir, well actually he didn't. It was a term that was carried over from his original work in progress.

The origin of the "Club" Forms/Sets is an interesting one. Originally the Club Set was a single weapon utilized with the long portion of the club extending down from the baby finger side of the hand when held naturally. This is what Parker called the "closed position." 

This was in a effort to address methods not found in other arts. He had a very unique method for using a club this way that helped to manage its weight, and gave it flexibility and effectiveness. This method Parker orginally began sharing with his friends in law enforcement. He was absolutely fascinated by law enforcement weapons and procedures as well as empty handed strategy. It was never supposed to be a "double weapon." He began working later on formulating a single handed weapon with the position reversed with the long extended portion on the thumb side like holding a conventional club. 

But understand the weapon had "club weight" so the weak hand assisted in its uses and implimentation creating a single weapon manipulated by two hands, much like what he knew of the the Chinese broadsword. Taking these methods and converting them to American Kenpo with a club was the goal. During this process the pressure for more weapons and their forms was strong from the commercial schools for competition. Considering he had the largest tournament in the world, he couldn't ignor this and added "Weapons Forms" to the IKC.

Weapons were beginning to be a big part of competition in tournaments and the only other weapon previously addressed suitable for competition from American Kenpo was from the "Staff Set." The "Knife Set," was not generally known. Parker began changing what he was working on to accomodate the demand. At first he was going to modify the form so it was two weapons. A club held as previously mentioned (closed) and a stick held in the conventional (open) way. The club was used in many ways like a heavy shield defensively, but could also strike underhanded with considerable weight, while the stick was like a "foil" or rapier that could be moved and whipped. This created and offense and a defense with two weapons that disorientated your opponent because they both traveled at different speeds. This was straight out of Chinese Weapons.

Parker himself only believed in "practical" modern weapons and saw no usefulness (in general) in traditional weapons. After all, his is a self defense based art which meant any weapon must be something readily available. A broom handle staff, yes. Two sticks of the same size and weight, cut to fit your arm length? No, (unless they are in your pocket when you're attacked.) But the commercial schools demanded "competition forms" which also for a brief period had Parker scrambling to add a Nunchauku Form/Set as well. These weapons were never a part of Ed Parker's self defense philosophy, but demand forced him to spend time on that very popular segment of Motion-Kenpo, and its commercial viability could not be ignored.

Ultimately the pressure caused Parker to just abandon his club plans because his plate was so full. So what did he do to satisfy the masses? He took techniques that were already in existence, strung them together, and then he added "clubs" (sticks) to the hands. What could be more simple? It was easy for him and it satisfied everyone and served a purpose for him in his endeavor to create Ten American Forms. "Knife Set" was moved to and re-named Form 8 and the "Club Set" was dropped, re-created, re-named and surfaced as Form 7, not "club form." So you see Form 7 is not "Club anything" anymore. By changing "philosophy" to a more "Kenpo Kali," it made everyone happy, but moved him away from the self-defense philosophy (club) to a more competition vehicle with limited self defense application.

Additionally there is no such thing as "Kenpo Sticks," and he hated that term. He would say, "There is only Kenpo with sticks in your hands."


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## HKphooey (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks.  I had done a search on the forum and nothing came up in the results.

Blindside, do you work sticks into your training?  That is basically what I wanted to hear about in this post.

Thanks again.


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## Blindside (Apr 11, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> Blindside, do you work sticks into your training? That is basically what I wanted to hear about in this post.


 
Yes, but not as part of Kenpo, but rather as a part of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali (and before that some Inosanto blend Kali and Cabales Serrada Escrima).  I find that there are strong similarities between the two arts, but there are many things are just plain different.  

Lamont


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## lenatoi (Apr 11, 2006)

When you say, "sticks," what are you refering to? I could take that to mean escrima or bo staff. Were you speeking of one or the other, or both?
I have tried both in my practice. It helps me adapt and understand. My main porpose for doing this is to learn to use weapons as an extension of my natural weapons.


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## Ross (Apr 12, 2006)

This is an interesting thread. 

Personally, we do the club set, Long 7 and the staff set.

Also, along with Long 8 and the knife set - these can only really be seen as competition forms rather than anything that is genuinely practical.

One of the aspects of Kenpo that I have always like is that it doesnt have traditional weapons - nunchukas, swords, etc.

How many times am I realistically going to come up against someone with these in the street?

Moving things on - how effective and practical do you find the knife techniques?


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## HKphooey (Apr 12, 2006)

lenatoi said:
			
		

> When you say, "sticks," what are you refering to? I could take that to mean escrima or bo staff. Were you speeking of one or the other, or both?
> I have tried both in my practice. It helps me adapt and understand. My main porpose for doing this is to learn to use weapons as an extension of my natural weapons.


 
I was speaking to ecrima/arnis sticks,


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## HKphooey (Apr 12, 2006)

lenatoi said:
			
		

> When you say, "sticks," what are you refering to? I could take that to mean escrima or bo staff. Were you speeking of one or the other, or both?
> I have tried both in my practice. It helps me adapt and understand. My main porpose for doing this is to learn to use weapons as an extension of my natural weapons.


 
I was speaking to ecrima/arnis sticks. Thanks for your thoughts.

On a different note...

Anyone wishing to discuss form 7 can go to http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24353.  I finally found it this morning.


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