# What does your WC/WT/VT sparring look like?



## PiedmontChun (May 13, 2015)

It seems like this forum has slowed recently. I think with some of the heated debate that comes from differing opinions, or even trolls coming from outside the Wing Chun community here to instigate or criticize has been a factor in that perhaps, though there are some still willing to post videos or discuss their own WC openly.
I ask the question "what does your sparring look like?" not to ruffle feathers or turn around and say "well this is what mine looks like". I'm genuinely curious to hear from people who have trained a long time, and as a pretty junior student myself, willing to describe my own.
Are you an instructor / student in a school or teach / learn WC more informally like in a small backyard club (or similar)?
What percentage of training is devoted to sparring?
What format does your school use? Timed rounds? Dividing by skill level or sparring across all student levels? Multiple attackers?
Half speed and half power? Full speed and half power? Full contact but with some kind of pads or sparring gear? Gloves used?
Is there critique or correction that comes as a result of sparring?

In my own experience, my school does sparring maybe the last 1/4 of class during the week's formal classes. There is usually no sparring during smaller private classes or the open format classes where people come and decide what they want to work on; thats more chi-sau, drills, etc. As a result, I am lucky to spar 1-2 times a week though theoretically it could be more, just with my schedule. 
We do timed rounds, maybe 1 minute before rotating spartners. One person is WC, the other person can feed whatever attacks they want- boxing, haymakers, grabs, tackles, etc to the best of their ability. We start just outside kicking range, obviously different from where all our chi-sau and most drills begin. Its always been emphasized to close that gap the moment the opponent gets close enough for contact, send out hands before feet, attack, create constant pressure. We do use gloves and try to punch the chest and areas other than the face, or use control (such as not dissipating force completely) but strikes to the head still happen. Some of the more advanced students transition quickly into neck grabs, sweeps if the attacker is open for it, and might stop and "reset" to continue sparring for what time is remaining before switching.
After we have cycled thru, we sometimes do multiple attackers, 2 or 3 on 1. At this point it becomes more about footwork and movement to not get trapped, more displacing an opponent using footwork, lop sau, using one person to disrupt  another's attack or as a shield. My class is all ages and sizes, and some females, so we arent all young athletic males either just to point that out. I'm not sure I can comment on any gaps or weaknesses in what we do, sparring in general was new to me when I started there and am still learning to be comfortable with punches flying at me and I try to make the most of that training time by relaxing, paying attention to my structure, but reacting versus thinking in terms of using specific movements. 

So pardon the long post, but hopefully it can spur a good discussion on what others do and insight they have picked up over time for whoever is game.


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## Vajramusti (May 13, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> It seems like this forum has slowed recently. I think with some of the heated debate that comes from differing opinions, or even trolls coming from outside the Wing Chun community here to instigate or criticize has been a factor in that perhaps, though there are some still willing to post videos or discuss their own WC openly.
> I ask the question "what does your sparring look like?" not to ruffle feathers or turn around and say "well this is what mine looks like". I'm genuinely curious to hear from people who have trained a long time, and as a pretty junior student myself, willing to describe my own.
> Are you an instructor / student in a school or teach / learn WC more informally like in a small backyard club (or similar)?
> What percentage of training is devoted to sparring?
> ...


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## Vajramusti (May 13, 2015)

Sparring with gloves- boxing style-imo is not necessary for wing chun development. I know how to spar and sometimes do- but for my wing chun development including timing, distance etc--- various forms of chi sao, gor sao, man sao, lat sao, lop sao  with footwork- is a good way to go
in training.


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## PiedmontChun (May 13, 2015)

I should actually clarify; our teacher refers to what we do as 'lat sau', not technically sparring.


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## zuti car (May 13, 2015)

Fighting is like swimming or riding a bicycle , you can't learn it if you don't actually do it . Sparring is important it should be at least 1\3 of the training


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## Jake104 (May 13, 2015)

Getting used to being hit is an important part of training. Unless you train in a traditional martial art or you're a super hero and think you can block everything that comes at you.


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## Kwan Sau (May 13, 2015)

We train as most WC does...however, everything we do, drills, etc we hit/strike/punch/palm/kick/knee/elbow etc our training partners. This is as much for their benefit as ours. We are not out to destroy our training / kwoon partners...but each time our attack physically connects (ie. strikes/hits) their intended target, that gets "filed away" in the brain. We always offer a significant threat to our training partners. If you don't do this, you are cheating yourself and your training partner. 
Now, "sparring" as in the typical "back and forth" nonsense...no, I don't do that, nor advocate that for wing chun practitioners. It ingrains poor habits. Timed rounds, same thing... 
Randomness = yes. Multiple opponents = yes. RBT scenarios = yes. Tactical awareness drills = yes. 
Back and forth, hopping around, in and out of range, with a timer on the wall and big gloves on = no. Divided by skill levels or weight classes = nope. Not going to happen in the back alley. Barefoot with a fancy uniform? Nope. Street clothes. Cups or groin protection = nope. Not in real life so not in the kwoon. 
Intense training partners/methodologies/scenarios with significant threat to the WC persons safety is how / what I advocate. 
This includes everything from the feet (how/where to place horse/feet etc) to the eyes (how / where to "gaze" when one on one and multiple opponents). 
"Sparring"....yep, did that for many years ago. You are what you train. 
"Fighting Drills"...yep. Typically only lasting seconds, not 1-3 minute rounds. 
Barehanded or armed, hands and/or feet, standup or grappling attempts, all good to go. 
Just my humble input Gents..
Great topic Piedmont!!!


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## Kwan Sau (May 13, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Getting used to being hit is an important part of training.



A B S O L U T E L Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Vajramusti (May 13, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I should actually clarify; our teacher refers to what we do as 'lat sau', not technically sparring.


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## Jake104 (May 13, 2015)

My first WC Sifu would make us sit in our yee gee kim yeung ma and slap each other in the face. Or we would punch lightly in face and chest and practice deflecting/ going with the energy of the hit. He explained it kind of like this. Pain is one of the best deterrents in a fight. It demoralizes the opponent and it will take the fight out of him real quick. Most people aren't used to being hit and IMMEDIATELY quit once they get rocked once. I have always trained in realistic manner. I can take a hit. Matter fact the more pain I feel the more I want to inflict. So for somebody like me it needs to be lights out, otherwise I keep coming.  On a side note, It's only been lights out once for me . It was a sucker punch and lights went out  for a moment.


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## Vajramusti (May 13, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I should actually clarify; our teacher refers to what we do as 'lat sau', not technically sparring.


Lat sau is free hand- clikely to be different from WT lat sau. Move away- re-enter etc. People do get hit- but for development we control the motions.


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## Jake104 (May 13, 2015)

So yes sparring is good! With boxing gloves, MMA gloves, pads, no pads, light, medium or full contact. It's all important and a great tool in all martial arts.  If you intend to use that art in a martial way of course.


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## PiedmontChun (May 13, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Back and forth, hopping around, in and out of range, with a timer on the wall and big gloves on = no. Divided by skill levels or weight classes = nope. Not going to happen in the back alley. Barefoot with a fancy uniform? Nope. Street clothes. Cups or groin protection = nope. Not in real life so not in the kwoon.
> QUOTE]
> We might "reset" back to starting point but theres no moving in and out of range or just trying to "tag each other" I get the sense that some MA schools do that type of sparring but out sifi likes to see tenacity and follow thru, not sizing someone up and trading blows.
> I do use light gloves that leave the thumb exposed, some of my fellow students use mma type gloves with fingers and thumb exposed. No heavy boxing gloves. We at least have more dexterity to grab / lop, even use the edge of palm to strike or the palm itself to pak, etc. Its obviously more cumbersome than bare-handed but it does feel like sort of a necessary evil so no one gets a busted lip or broken nose.


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## Jake104 (May 13, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> We train as most WC does...however, everything we do, drills, etc we hit/strike/punch/palm/kick/knee/elbow etc our training partners. This is as much for their benefit as ours. We are not out to destroy our training / kwoon partners...but each time our attack physically connects (ie. strikes/hits) their intended target, that gets "filed away" in the brain. We always offer a significant threat to our training partners. If you don't do this, you are cheating yourself and your training partner.
> Now, "sparring" as in the typical "back and forth" nonsense...no, I don't do that, nor advocate that for wing chun practitioners. It ingrains poor habits. Timed rounds, same thing...
> Randomness = yes. Multiple opponents = yes. RBT scenarios = yes. Tactical awareness drills = yes.
> Back and forth, hopping around, in and out of range, with a timer on the wall and big gloves on = no. Divided by skill levels or weight classes = nope. Not going to happen in the back alley. Barefoot with a fancy uniform? Nope. Street clothes. Cups or groin protection = nope. Not in real life so not in the kwoon.
> ...



The back and forth nonsense is usually what I see when WC gets owned in videos. They fall into that trap and I think we can ALL agree that the art was not design for that type of sport  style of fighting. Now sometimes retreating is necessary but, with a forward/ returning intent.

Personally,  I've went hard in a sparring session. My opponent came in really hard and, by the way had 75lbs and 5" height and reach on me. But he came in extremely hard and fast. I wasn't able to shift or do anything fancy. There just wasn't time. I just took it like "REAL MAN" retreated with forward intent while firing that straight WC punch. Well those shots hurt my opponent and eventually slowed him down. Which then allowed the tide to change and I regained control of the fight and became the aggressor. Mentally it does something to an opponent when they give you all they got and expect you to go down. But you don't . It really messes with there head. I love it.


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## Callen (May 15, 2015)

This is tricky.

It's not a system built for the typical sparring that encompasses pads and touch and go tactics. Likewise, as pointed out earlier, gloves impair the ability to apply a large variety of technique that is key to a well-rounded implementation of WC. While it's possible to do well using WC and wearing pads in a typical sparring environment, good technique possibilities will be limited. Because of this, I have found that true pressure testing will yield great gains in understanding how to use the tools of WC properly. I have seen many practitioners lose their ability to stay in WC once the heat is on, so it's good to train more aggressively at times to reinforce correct responses. Sometimes, getting tagged is just part of the journey.


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## qianfeng (May 15, 2015)

How does the other person attack in whatever way they want? Boxing? Have they learnt boxing? Won't it jst be a guy using wing chun against someone punching wildly?


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## drop bear (May 15, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> The back and forth nonsense is usually what I see when WC gets owned in videos. They fall into that trap and I think we can ALL agree that the art was not design for that type of sport style of fighting. Now sometimes retreating is necessary but, with a forward/ returning intent.



That is not a chin only concept. I know a k1 guy who preaches returning intent.


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## drop bear (May 15, 2015)

Sigh.. chun spell checker got me.


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## Jake104 (May 16, 2015)

Yes, exactly Drop Bear. Most Wing Chunners like to  think  things like, centerline, forward intent and economy of motion are exclusive to that art. Nope! I'd say to them get out more and train with other arts. You'll find a lot of similar concept and principals in other methods. I prefer training with non WC partners. For some reason WC guys don't like me much


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## Jake104 (May 16, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> How does the other person attack in whatever way they want? Boxing? Have they learnt boxing? Won't it jst be a guy using wing chun against someone punching wildly?


Doesn't really matter.  Personally I like the opponent to decide how he wants to attack, not the other way around. I like surprises and it makes it more realistic. I don't do the come at me with xyz method.  I do the come at me however you want and then I improvise.

Now , nothing really wrong with the xyz method if your working a skill set. Just don't get stuck in that method. Use it to work that skill. Then test it in a spontaneous uncontrolled environment too see if it works against a boxer a butcher or a candlestick maker.

Hopefully they are training with a real boxer and not a WC guy pretending to be .  I train with real boxers and a matter of fact, I got punched in the nose today by one. I'm so cool! Seriously though I deserved it. He was just keeping me honest. I got a little to fancy with my chun. It taught me a more direct way of what I was training. That's why sparring is important. It helps take fanasty out of  the equation.


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## KPM (May 17, 2015)

Putting on the gloves and having a "go" is very valuable.  If you aren't wearing protective gear and you are training with a colleague in a  "friendly" situation, 9 times out of 10 they just aren't going to be trying to really hit you.  So its not as "realistic" as you think!  That's just human nature.  But put on boxing gloves and maybe headgear and all bets are off!  Subconsciously people just take this as "permission" to really hit you!   So if you never put on any kind of protective gear but think you are getting the benefits of actually sparring, I think you are deluding yourself.  You can Chi Sau/Gor Sau/Lat Sau all you want, but it is still not the same thing as a determined opponent truly making an effort to hit you, and hit you hard!

Complicated Chi Sau/Lat Sau "tricks" typically are not going to work in the real world.  What is going to work are the basics.  This includes how to send and receive force, how to keep your center and your balance, how to control distance, and how to use your basic defenses like Pak, Tan, Bong, etc.  Multiple step Chi Sau combinations are not in that realm.  Putting on boxing gloves certainly limits your  ability to do those complicated Chi Sau tricks.  But they do NOT limit your ability to do any of the other things I mentioned.  The benefits of putting on gloves and training against someone that is truly trying to hit you far out-weigh any negative aspects.  If you don't see that, its likely because you have never truly tried it.

But absolutely you need to spar against people other than your fellow Wing Chun players.  Sparring with someone "pretending" to be a boxer is nothing like sparring against someone that actually is a decent boxer and knows how to land hits on people from multiple angles!  Finding people like this to train with is sometimes not easy.  But its worth the effort even if you only get to do it infrequently.  It will really open your eyes.

Does this translate over to the "street"?  Hell yeah!!!!  Do you think a determined thug is just going to drop to the pavement with your first punch or turn and run away?  Don't count on it!  Do you think you are so good you can close with someone and they would never have the opportunity to back away and create distance between you?  Maybe you are!  But don't count on it!  The ability to "close the gap" is very important.  This is exactly what you are doing in the "back and forth nonsense" of sparring. 

I think its pretty simple really.  Typically the people that say they don't see value in sparring are the people that never spar and have never really even tried to on any kind of serious level.  And people that say you can't spar with Wing Chun just prove this, because you can!  ;-)


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## drop bear (May 17, 2015)

Why couldn't you chi sau, spar or kung fu with mma style or mma sparring style gloves. Would they really get in the way that badly?

I mean if you want to hit each other with some sort of protection.


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## Danny T (May 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Why couldn't you chi sau, spar or kung fu with mma style or mma sparring style gloves. Would they really get in the way that badly?
> 
> I mean if you want to hit each other with some sort of protection.


We do it often. Does it restrict somethings... Yes. Makes it much easier to trap the hand (and to get your hand trapped) when in close. Many aspects of wing chun actions can be performed with open finger/palm gloves. Just don't get caught up in sparring like one does in a competition match like mma or boxing.


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## KPM (May 17, 2015)




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## drop bear (May 17, 2015)

Danny T said:


> We do it often. Does it restrict somethings... Yes. Makes it much easier to trap the hand (and to get your hand trapped) when in close. Many aspects of wing chun actions can be performed with open finger/palm gloves. Just don't get caught up in sparring like one does in a competition match like mma or boxing.



Because I can see how boxing gloves would be a pain. But unless you are really wailing on someone. You don't need them.


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## KPM (May 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Because I can see how boxing gloves would be a pain. But unless you are really wailing on someone. You don't need them.



Try it.  They aren't as much of a pain as you assume!  And I'll ask you....would you rather take a solid shot to the face with a 16 oz boxing glove, or a 8 oz MMA glove?  Likewise, would you be really willing to smack your friend in the face with a 8 oz MMA glove....or a 16 oz boxing glove?  I'll say again that unless your partner/opponent is really serious about trying to hit you solidly in the head, your training is not nearly as realistic as it could be! 

Even professional MMA fighters do not train exclusively with MMA gloves.  They use large boxing gloves regularly in training. There is a reason for that!  ;-)


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## PiedmontChun (May 18, 2015)

KPM said:


> You can Chi Sau/Gor Sau/Lat Sau all you want, but it is still not the same thing as a determined opponent truly making an effort to hit you, and hit you hard!
> 
> Complicated Chi Sau/Lat Sau "tricks" typically are not going to work in the real world.  What is going to work are the basics.  This includes how to send and receive force, how to keep your center and your balance, how to control distance, and how to use your basic defenses like Pak, Tan, Bong, etc.  Multiple step Chi Sau combinations are not in that realm.  Putting on boxing gloves certainly limits your  ability to do those complicated Chi Sau tricks.  But they do NOT limit your ability to do any of the other things I mentioned.  The benefits of putting on gloves and training against someone that is truly trying to hit you far out-weigh any negative aspects.  If you don't see that, its likely because you have never truly tried it.
> 
> ...


Is that really what chi-sau is though? Learning complicated multi step combinations? Just like a karateka is not going to use kata step for step in a fight, it seems off point to think chi-sau sections exist to be used verbatim in a fight. Aren't the indivudual responses / reflexes whats being trained, and the order or sequence just a way of transmitting information? If I give an opening, my training partner has often employed a movement or trap in free chi-sau that I don't recognize or know how to counter effectively, leading me to ask "what the heck was that?". Clearly he has tools in his tool box that I don;t, and he's able to use those movements instinctively without being a slave to the sequence / format in which it is taught.

As far as sparring others, I see your point. Some of our guys have some Karate, Muay Thai, Krav, and boxing backgrounds..... but we aren't highly skilled in other systems, just using what we have to work with within our own school. Not a lot of other area schools open their doors to "fight nights" or anything like that anymore, though its happened in the past. Me personally, I have a Krav Maga friend, we plan on getting together to have a friendly spar / exchange, which my sifu has said essentially "go for it" to opportunities like that.


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## Danny T (May 18, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> As far as sparring others, I see your point. Some of our guys have some Karate, Muay Thai, Krav, and boxing backgrounds..... but we aren't highly skilled in other systems, just using what we have to work with within our own school. Not a lot of other area schools open their doors to "fight nights" or anything like that anymore, though its happened in the past. Me personally, I have a Krav Maga friend, we plan on getting together to have a friendly spar / exchange, which my sifu has said essentially "go for it" to opportunities like that.


Most gyms/schools that have a mma or fighter program have open sparring times. At least in my area they do. Check with them for some good sparring time. Speak with them and whom you spar with about making it more about defending an attack from different ranges vs moving around as in a cage/ring. Ask if they would do some multiple opponent attacks.


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## Vajramusti (May 19, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Most gyms/schools that have a mma or fighter program have open sparring times. At least in my area they do. Check with them for some good sparring time. Speak with them and whom you spar with about making it more about defending an attack from different ranges vs moving around as in a cage/ring. Ask if they would do some multiple opponent attacks.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just responding not arguing. When I was young, I boxed. Then when I began wing chun I put sport behind and began to learn wing chun in earnest. Occasionally I would wear gloves to show the enhanced short power of wing chun. But basically since have been exposed to very good Ip Man wing chun, I don't need to import boxing, ju jutsu etc.In a sustained good wing chun path you continue to grow.
Sometimes on this thread there is not enough appreciation of the importance of chi sao which should be done right and corrected from time to time. The forms and chi sao complement each other- you cant have one without the other.
Of course wing chun is not the only way.


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## Vajramusti (May 19, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Just responding not arguing. When I was young, I boxed. Then when I began wing chun I put sport behind and began to learn wing chun in earnest. Occasionally I would wear gloves to show the enhanced short power of wing chun. But basically since have been exposed to very good Ip Man wing chun, I don't need to import boxing, ju jutsu etc.In a sustained good wing chun path you continue to grow.
> Sometimes on this thread there is not enough appreciation of the importance of chi sao which should be done right and corrected from time to time. The forms and chi sao complement each other- you cant have one without the other.
> Of course wing chun is not the only way.


PS- regarding "realism": if you know how to "control" your motions (an internal aspect) you can hit your partner as hard as is warranted.


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## KPM (May 19, 2015)

I don't need to import boxing, ju jutsu etc.In a sustained good wing chun path you continue to grow.

---Nobody said anything about importing boxing into their Wing Chun, just wearing boxing gloves.

PS- regarding "realism": if you know how to "control" your motions (an internal aspect) you can hit your partner as hard as is warranted.

---Just knowing that your partner is going to be controlling or pulling his punches to spare you takes out a lot of the realism.


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## drop bear (May 19, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> PS- regarding "realism": if you know how to "control" your motions (an internal aspect) you can hit your partner as hard as is warranted.



You should be able to do that anyway. I hate working with one speed guys.


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## drop bear (May 19, 2015)

KPM said:


> I don't need to import boxing, ju jutsu etc.In a sustained good wing chun path you continue to grow.
> 
> ---Nobody said anything about importing boxing into their Wing Chun, just wearing boxing gloves.
> 
> ...



In your video they are boxing though. They might be using wing chun but those concepts are also boxing concepts.


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## Drose427 (May 19, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Most gyms/schools that have a mma or fighter program have open sparring times. At least in my area they do. Check with them for some good sparring time. Speak with them and whom you spar with about making it more about defending an attack from different ranges vs moving around as in a cage/ring. Ask if they would do some multiple opponent attacks.




This is why "Gym-Schools" are my favorite types of schools.

You can accomplish all sides, teach high discipline Strong Tradition TMA's from 2-5 and from 5-9 Work with MMA guys

Its also easier on the students to step outside their comfort zone.



drop bear said:


> In your video they are boxing though. They might be using wing chun but those concepts are also boxing concepts.



Well Wing Chun is commonly considered Chinese boxing.

and in the note of concepts, nearly all martial arts have a few similar concepts


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## drop bear (May 19, 2015)

Speaking of getting all kung fu with the boxing.

We were learning upper cut hook the arm, drag it, overhand right.


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## KPM (May 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> In your video they are boxing though. They might be using wing chun but those concepts are also boxing concepts.



The key word here is "also."  Its still Wing Chun.  Alan hasn't "imported boxing" into his Wing Chun as Joy said.


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## Vajramusti (May 20, 2015)

KPM said:


> The key word here is "also."  Its still Wing Chun.  Alan hasn't "imported boxing" into his Wing Chun as Joy said.


-------------------------------------------------
Sigh. I did not mention Alan at all.


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## JPinAZ (May 20, 2015)

I've used both types of gloves in WC sparring and boxing gloves are far too limiting and tend to limit your response to more what is seen in Alan's videos. It works great for him, but I think our ideas of WC are quite a bit different and I don't find boxing gloves are the best avenue for applying WC as they force you to have to 'box' more than I prefer.

Plus, I've had no problem at all using decent, open-palm 8 ounce gloves with 2 inch padding at the knuckles which gives almost the same protection as boxing gloves, but without the added bulk. You're still also able to use your palm/grip/wrist much easier than with the bulkier boxing gloves and you can still deliver as much or as little power as needed safely (but I would never encourage use the small comp 4 OZ MMA gloves of anything other than light contact sparring -  too little protection and too easy to cut with)

Also, I strongly disagree with Keith's generalization of what 'chi sau' is (being about complicated "tricks"). In my experience, it is a _lot_ more than that, but can see why he might feel this way after experiencing other school's WC methods and approaches to chi sau. Again, different understandings of WC


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## KPM (May 20, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------
> Sigh. I did not mention Alan at all.



Sorry.  Didn't mean it that way at all.  I meant "Joy said...importing boxing into Wing Chun."  General statement.  Not specific to Alan.  Just pointing out that Alan isn't doing this.


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## KPM (May 20, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> Also, I strongly disagree with Keith's generalization of what 'chi sau' is (being about complicated "tricks"). In my experience, it is a _lot_ more than that, but can see why he might feel this way after experiencing other school's WC methods and approaches to chi sau. Again, different understandings of WC



It wasn't meant as a generalization for all of Chi Sau.  I was referring to the complicated pre-set multi-step techniques that some groups have as a "Lat Sau" program in their Chi Sau curriculum.


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## Jake104 (May 22, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> I've used both types of gloves in WC sparring and boxing gloves are far too limiting and tend to limit your response to more what is seen in Alan's videos. It works great for him, but I think our ideas of WC are quite a bit different and I don't find boxing gloves are the best avenue for applying WC as they force you to have to 'box' more than I prefer.
> 
> Plus, I've had no problem at all using decent, open-palm 8 ounce gloves with 2 inch padding at the knuckles which gives almost the same protection as boxing gloves, but without the added bulk. You're still also able to use your palm/grip/wrist much easier than with the bulkier boxing gloves and you can still deliver as much or as little power as needed safely (but I would never encourage use the small comp 4 OZ MMA gloves of anything other than light contact sparring -  too little protection and too easy to cut with)
> 
> Also, I strongly disagree with Keith's generalization of what 'chi sau' is (being about complicated "tricks"). In my experience, it is a _lot_ more than that, but can see why he might feel this way after experiencing other school's WC methods and approaches to chi sau. Again, different understandings of WC


I wish your colleague would of wore 8 oz gloves when he broke my nose. It's ok, he made it up to me eventually with a dinner and movie. Haha!


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