# Passing the Torch



## glad2bhere (Jul 6, 2004)

Since there was a string on who people thought the most outstanding Hapkido person might be I thought I would throw this out FWIW. 

The Koreans have never been very good at succession where the KMA are concerned. In fact succession is one of the main issues in American business interests. The question comes up more often than people might care to acknowledge. 

"Who is going to take over when the Old Man is gone?" 

Hardly a month goes by when we DON'T hear that one more well-known personage has gone on to join his forebearers on that great Celestial Mat with the Supreme Kwan Jang. In like fashion there are often reports that a school has closed and the teacher moved on to other places. So heres' my question. 

If you woke up to find that you no longer had the leadership (IE. teacher, instructor, organization, school) that you had come to be comfortable with what would be your next course of action. 

If that question is a little too morbid how about--- 

"What plans have you made for your martial training for 5 years down the road?" 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Master Todd Miller (Jul 6, 2004)

What plans have you made for your martial training for 5 years down the road?" 


I think that is a very important question to ask!  For me I will continue to follow the Jungki Kwans next headmaster.  There are several Masters to choose from all of wich are very capable of carying on the torch of Jungki Martial Arts. :asian: 

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


----------



## Disco (Jul 6, 2004)

"What plans have you made for your martial training for 5 years down the road?" 

A lot of options have to do with what rank you have attained. I know there are a lot of people who offer that rank shouldn't be a factor, but in reality it is. There are very few schools or individuals that would be willing to allow a higher ranking person, than the main instructor, to join and train with them.  You in fact become a threat. Not physically, but monatarily. If you are still in the kyu/guep ranks, then there is little problem. Even at 1st or 2nd Dan, perhaps even 3rd, although 3rd is pushing it, one still may be able to be invited to join. If you have reached 4th or higher, unless you can find someone of higher rank and that still does not eliminate the prospect of being a threat, you are forced to become a lone wolf. So your options are either find a few non affiliated practicioners and/or start your own school. Starting your own school is not always an option for some. The costs in many places are too prohibitive. The only other option I can think of would be to start into a totally different discipline than the one your currently trained in. 

P.S. Bruce, glad you had a good time at rudy's........


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 6, 2004)

Thanks, it was really a nice experience. In fact, we touched on so many themes that any ONE of those could have been used as the focus for the days' training. To use a metaphor, the food that was served up may have been the same but the way it was prepared was very different. 

I understand that Kat Kelly may not be hosting Rudy after all so I am thinking of making a trip out to Washington DC. where the Jin Pal folks are having BB testing. Brian has been very cordial about extending an invitation and I understand that we may share some of the same traditions as both his headmaster and mine apparently trained under Ji Han jae. Only fly in the ointment is that both the test and my nieces' wedding are in August. May take some finagling.  FWIW.

BTW: Mike Tomlinson never returned my e-mail so it may just be you and I, even if just to hit the local STARBUCKS. No way am I going to hang around Disney World all day Saturday!!  artyon:  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 6, 2004)

Dear Todd: 

I get asked about GM Myung quite a bit, probably because of his health problems. In his case no one has been identified as a successor that I know of. For myself, I probably place a whole lot more emphasis on the Yon Mu Kwan than I do on the WHF organization though historically the latter proceeded from the former. Problem is that not many of the WHF people still subscribe to the kwan model having long since given over to the more modern "federation" or "association" approach. Seeking someone who still upholds the older mindset, I sometimes find folks who still mention GM Myung on their website or in their literature but most of the time it is because they have joined the organization. Westerners like the ability to float from organization to organization as the parameters are quite a bit more relaxed. Joining a kwan means things are done from a particular point of view--- which, after all, IS what a "kwan" is----- and that often means having to do something someone has become settled with in a different fashion. Smells too much like starting over from Square One for most people. For myself, then, five years from now will hopefully see me with a few more books out, but probably about as far as I will be able to go with the Yon Mu Kwan unless some obscure Yon Mu Kwan teacher or mentor surfaces. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Master Todd Miller (Jul 6, 2004)

You made a very good point Bruce!  It is important to be learning at all levels of training.  GM Lim has told me many times "Every day practice, every day improve"  Learning has many differant levels so a 4th geup is not going to be learning the same as a 5th dan.  It is important for the 5th dan to keep studying looking for more understanding at even the basic level of training.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo .com


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 6, 2004)

Bruce writes:
"Who is going to take over when the Old Man is gone?"

Hello Bruce:  Your question is on that every serious practitioner should ask him or herself.  If we think on the timeline where most arts we know today were founded, add to that a reasonable age of the founders, and we find that they just HAVE to be getting on in age.  

I myself found out the hard way when GM Pak suddenly died of a heart attack a few years back, and it was no fun.  In my case, he had already passed his art on to me (1984), because he went on to promote another art he founded.  Even with all of the documents legally in place, I still face skeptics on a daily basis, and that will never change.

Not only do folks have to think about who they will train with, they will also need to see who they can follow with an honest heart.  Looking at what recently happened with ITF (and earlier on with Ed Parker, just to name a few of many), there is almost sure to be a battle for position.

Since Maslows "theory of needs" hit me a few years back, I have been working hard on preparing NKMAA as well as Kong Shin Bup for this.  Not much fun, but it needs to be done.  For the life of me, I can't figure out why so many young people WANT to be a GM.  To me that title just means one thing:  "my Grand Master is dead (and more training is hard to come by), I'm getting old, and I have to deal with all of the problems other folks seem to be able to dream up at will.  Not much to brag about IMHO.

BTW:
The NKMAA seminar scheduled for Houston in October is still on; however, KSN Kat Kely does need to make sure she gets enough people to cover her expenses.  My August seminar in Portland, OR and September seminar in Brainerd, MN are on track with pre-registrations coming in now.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 7, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

".....The NKMAA seminar scheduled for Houston in October is still on; however, KSN Kat Kely does need to make sure she gets enough people to cover her expenses. My August seminar in Portland, OR and September seminar in Brainerd, MN are on track with pre-registrations coming in now....." 

My most sincere apologies. I misunderstood completely. Glad to hear that Kat will still be having her event in October in Houston. I would definitely like to make the Portland event, if only to see Kevin again and have him bang me around on the mat. August seems to be getting pretty busy for me but your seminars always seem to draw a great bunch of folks. Can't ask more than that!! 

Getting back to the idea of succession, sometimes I see such questions as the flip-side of being a GM. By this I mean that here in the States people seem to make quite a bit of titles such as "sabunim", grandmaster and so forth. Its a recognition thing, I think. Then, when its time to do the actual "grunt work" associated with the title (IE. paperwork, teaching, management) things begin to breakdown. I remember that the "Five Good Emperors" of Roman history were able to provide sound succession of good leaders by making sure that their successors were groomed and oriented to take ones' place should the previous emperoro pass on. I think the leadership in the Hapkido arts need to think the same way. By having a generally identified and accepted individual as the person to take the reins should something happen to the previous leader one makes sure that there will be a smooth transfer of authority. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jul 7, 2004)

Korean arts tend to be decentralized more than Japanese or Chinese arts. In other words, rather than saying "this person founded this art and this person controls it" it becomes more "this art developed in this way through the years" whether Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido etc. That is one of the problems with "passing the torch". Who passes the torch to whom? My organization is no different. When our GM passes, as we all will, it will most likely turn into a situation of each Instructor taking what they have learned and running with it.
For example, if my Instructor dies and I am 5th Dan at the time, I probably will never make 6th Dan, because he is the only person who can promote me. Don't talk to me about going to some Grandmasters Organization for promotion. My Instructor is the only person who can recommend me. Now, it doesn't mean I can't add to my skills and knowledge and become the world's best 5th Dan, but I will still be a 5th Dan (or whatever Dan). Won Kuk Lee only made 3rd-4th Dan in Taekyon/Karate before starting Chung Do Kwan. He had no choice, and never claimed rank he didn't have.
Point is, if my Instructor passes, I can still continue with my life, training, and teaching, even if it is on my own. That is why they call Tae Kwon Do the Tiger Martial Art. Like tigers, Tae Kwon Do people tend to be solitary-practicing and training on their own.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 7, 2004)

"....For example, if my Instructor dies and I am 5th Dan at the time, I probably will never make 6th Dan, because he is the only person who can promote me. Don't talk to me about going to some Grandmasters Organization for promotion. My Instructor is the only person who can recommend me. Now, it doesn't mean I can't add to my skills and knowledge and become the world's best 5th Dan, but I will still be a 5th Dan (or whatever Dan). Won Kuk Lee only made 3rd-4th Dan in Taekyon/Karate before starting Chung Do Kwan. He had no choice, and never claimed rank he didn't have....." 

Absolutely 100% Correct!! And (IMVVHO) I think this is a huge piece of the equation some people never quite get although maybe its not entirely their fault. Too often people talk about a kwan and use terms like 'lineage", "style" and "ryu". I can understand how they come to think this way. I think its the corrupting influence of organizations which tend to color old thinking with new interpretations. Its not awful or terrible just inconvenient. But there are some ways to reconcile such things as old and new thinking. For instance, both Rudy and JR have organizations which are accepting and tolerant of alternate practices of Hapkido arts. Within the context of those organizations, however, both Rudy and JR have their own curriculum founded in their own view of how the Hapkido arts come together for them. In other words, ANYBODY can join an organization and abide by the by-laws and be a member in good standing and certainly benefit by the goods and services of the organization. A kwan requires a person to adopt the view of the teacher, a particular view of how the arts come together, particular motives or values. 
If I had to compare the two I would say its a lot like the up-coming presidential election. American elect a president based on popularity. The American Indians designated a leader depending on their needs and his proven track record--- a good negotiator for peace time; a good fighter for a war chief. A think the traditional kwan needs to select their leadership in advance but its not like an assication or federation. Its not like its a matter of someone just filling a designated office. The teacher needs to be revealed to the group with time and practice. Absent that, people like you and me are effectively relegated to our particular rank or standing for the balance of our career. Maybe some people might see that as unfortunate but I think it comes with subscribing to a kwan model rather than the more modern take on things.  Whatcha think? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jul 7, 2004)

Some members of our organization have already expressed the opinion that when our Grandmaster passes or retires, his son will take over, much like Jung Hwa Choi taking over one branch of the ITF. I feel this will not happen. For starters, there are Instructors in the organization who outrank him and are senior in age. He is 4th Dan, there are two 7th Dans (pending) and the rest of the Seniors are 6th Dans. No way would they allow even the GM son to run his organization based on the fact that they outrank him.
Also, some of his students have been there from the beginning. It goes back to a question of seniority. I seriously doubt the Instructors would be able to put their various agendas aside and pick a new leader. Politics will always be a factor. No matter who is nominated for President, each Instructor will feel, privately or otherwise, that they could do just as good a job as anyone else. Furthermore, they would not allow themselves to be placed under the administration of a new leader.
Several years, one of our black belts thought our GM should write a book about Tae Kwon Do. I told him it would never happen. First, he would likely delegate that job to any Instructor willing to take on the task. And any Instructor who did would inevitably be compared to the Grandmaster ("he never taught forms like that!" "That's not how he did it!"). They would also think they could do a better job.
In conclusion, I think in many cases the torch cannot be passed because each Instructor thinks they should get it. Passing the torch to a "favored son", blood or not, would inevitably breed resentment and jealousy.
What happens is that each member simply goes their own way and builds their own technique and possibly organization.


----------



## Disco (Jul 8, 2004)

Some interesting inputs. If memory serves, the old school mindset was that if the head of the style passes, a family member then became the head of the system or if there was no family member, then the senior student became the head. We see that that actually dosen't work. Parker's organization fragmented, the same as Trias's did, the same as almost all will do here in the U.S. I actually think that the way the Kukkiwon is set up is the only way to hold a style somewhat together. I realize that there are plenty of TKD organizations out there, but they too are also fragmented. The ITF is a prime example. It only had one leader, Gen Choi. Now there are 3 or 4 seperate factions claming leadership. So why is the Kukkiwon to be copied? They are the umbrella for many kwans/styles of TKD. So if a kwan head passes, the students and instructors still have a venue to attain progression if the leadership of the kwan should fall into conflict. I don't normally give kudos to the Korean business practices, but this one they seem to have gotten right. Kind of looks like military protocal. Hey!, even a broke clock is right twice a day.  :uhyeah:   

In an even semi-perfect world, the tenents of the martial arts would take the lead and the true desciples of the discipline would bow to the rule of the senior practicioner becoming the leader. But it's doubtful that there really are anymore true desciples. To be honest, there may truely have never been any, just wishful thinking by people who wanted it to be that way.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 8, 2004)

MichiganTKD's comment reminded me of a something I heard regarding the UTF after the passing of their leader. Apparently a relative turned up out of the blue and stated that he would now take the reins as was his right. The surviving practitioners of standing in the organization advised him respectfully (but firmly) that was not how it was going to be done and continue to manage the organization among themselves with the technical oversight of another authority. I have to admire those kinds of strengths. 

I was also wondering if Disco could give a little more info on the KUKKIWON and their management approach. Not being a TKD person I don't know that much about them. What I have heard is that they tend to be more focused on Korean practitioners than non-koreans a'la KIDOHAE in the Hapkido arts. If they have been successful in addresing succession issues I'd like to hear more. I'm especially curious how much their success might be a function of their emphasis on Korean nationals who would, understandably, enjoy a common background in culture and values.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## greendragon (Jul 8, 2004)

I know during the last training session with Doju Nim Ji as we were eating a meal he started talking about how he wanted things to be done when he passes away.. he stated to all of us that he didn't want ANYONE to be the leader of Sin Moo Hapkido, he said that he wanted us to all get together on equal footing just like we were doing then and share techniques and have fun without anyone saying they were senior to this person or that person... he also stated that that is what he loved about teaching us was that everyone was friendly, happy, laughing, and having the right mindset and not worrying about who was the senior or who was in charge,, ONLY having love for Hapkido and not anything else to be concerned with... it was a real eye opening experience and it's funny because everytime I go and train with him I feel like I come away from my time with him not only better in my techniques but much better as a good productive human being...
                                                             Michael Tomlinson
                                                         5th dan Sin Moo Hapkido


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 8, 2004)

Dear Michael: 

Thats is exactly the way I have come to feel about Rudy and JR. They certainly have their own take on their particular arts, but its the atmosphere of sharing that really pulls things together. This last weekend in SSM it was wonderful to have each person kicking a little something into the kitty without someone coming along and making a particular issue about this approach or that. My sense is that there will need to be some kind of overall authority for Sin Mu after Ji is gone in that someone will need to keep an eye on things to make sure that quality doesn't decline, but that gets back to the idea of a teacher "arising" from the ranks. As I write this I am thinking about how the Masonic lodge tends to have people who are heavily invested in the traditions develop into instructors. Its not that their word is law in that sense but only that they uphold standards and act as resources for the rest of the membership. Maybe this is the direction Hapkido will move in the future. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Disco (Jul 8, 2004)

All the Kukkiwon is, is a clearing house for rank certification. Nobody needs Kukkiwon certification, just to be recognized as a martial artist. They only need that certification for international competition. But it still can function as an alternate venue for people to continue to upgrade in rank, if they should seperate from their kwan or instructor. As for being focused more on Korean practicioners, one could assume that being HQ'd in Korea and being run by Koreans, that there would be a greater focus on home nationality, but non-Koreans receive the same formula for rank advancement. It's doubtful that a non-Korean will ever be in the governing HQ's body though. The other nice thing is that a TKD person can move about the country or even oversea's and still find a school/instructor - regardless of kwan, that can interface with the Kukkiwon. The AAU here in the U.S. follows a similar format. Even the KHF is suppose to flow along the same lines. Many kwans under one banner and they (KHF) issue rank certifications. Nothing is perfect, which we all have witnessed. The fiscal problem (alledged theft) by the Kukkiwon president, but he has been replaced and the Kukkiwon is still fully functional. There is something to be said for an organization that is not constricted by having only a single person in charge. Just my personal opinion, but I think the Kukkiwon was setup with the format of a majority rule, just to preclude the problems that occured when kwans went into receivership mode. They didn't realize at the time that it would grow to the extent that is has and generate so much funding and political power. I think if the founders knew then what we know now, it never would have happened. But to the benefit of many today, it did happen and I don't really think they could change it without it imploding.


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 8, 2004)

I think after all is said and done, folks will only follow those who have something to teach.  Regardless of who is appointed, if that person does not have what it takes to continue to attract willing followers it is all for naught.  So, IMHO, I just have to make sure I have some good people who can teach in order to continue sharing the way we have come to enjoy


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 9, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

I am going to apologize in advance for this post as it might put you in an uncomfortable spot, but its not as though we have a dozen directors ("kwan jang") responding to this thread. 

As mentioned earlier you have individuals that you recognize as being groomed for leadership positions with the NKMAA. In this sense the idea of succession is being addressed in your organization. If you don't mind talking about it, are there any special approaches that you use to encourage the acceptance of your choices for leadership? Put another way, YOU have apparently made YOUR assessments for how you would like succession to follow should something cause you not to be able to lead the organization. Are there things that you do to insure that others in the rank and file will be respectful of your choices and support the succession you have developed? From what I have seen historically, even when leaders designated a sucessor, there is still a tendency for many in the membership not to support the choices.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 9, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Rudy:
> 
> I am going to apologize in advance for this post as it might put you in an uncomfortable spot, but its not as though we have a dozen directors ("kwan jang") responding to this thread.
> 
> ...



Not a problem at all Bruce.  I am actually quite happy to answer your question.  My main goal in preparing for the inevitable has been very simple.  I also believe that no matter who I appoint, the final choice will be (and should be) that of the consumer... our members.

In the case of leadership of a kwan, there are a lot of thing to consider.  IMHO, although it is an essential component, it is not good enough to have all the techniques of the art down pat if the art is to remain complete.  IMHO, it is also a matter of being known and respected by your peers. To this end, I have taken some of my people around to allow them to share their knowledge with others (who then can make up their own minds about these possible leaders).  In addition to those qualities, I believe having a strong personality (not just being a leader, but also being a pleasant and honorable person to deal with) is a key component.

Even the most skilled person who has all of the knowledge about the art is a dud, unless people are comfortable enough to learn from him or her.  Without having genuine respect for others and their arts, one will become a thorn in the sides of many.  IMHO, this will override any desire to be with, let alone learn from, such a person.  In effect, it will likely kill the art (as it is) if the wrong man is appointed.  

To lead a kwan, you must be good at the art, have a genuine desire to share what you know, be able to effectively communicate, have a pleasant personality, and be forthright and honest about your dealings with others etc. etc.  So, my job is not just to teach all the elements of the art. I see my job to instill good etiquette and genuine concern for the welfare of others in my possible leaders as equally important.   

To step into a leader's position is a big hole to fill.  Not that any one man is so important, but people simply get used to a leader and become comfortable with that person.  People hate change, and changing anyone's comfort level is a big hurdle to overcome.  If that can't be done, the appointment is useless.  For this reason, I try to bring possible leaders with me wherever I go.  In this manner, folks who are presently working with me can become comfortable with him or her.  In the end, I will have done my best to ensure that there is a continuence of the art I inherited, and that is all a man can do.  Hope this helps you understand the way I am personally dealing with this issue.


----------



## American HKD (Jul 12, 2004)

Greetings,

Good topic. 

I've been training with Ji Han Jae since Janurary 2004 it's been really wonderful, in the sense that I feel he's completing my physical, mental and sprtiual aspects of my last 20 plus years in HKD, but I'm worried about who would take over Sin Moo HKD in the future. 

I personally dont think anyone can replace Doju Ji because he's very unique and considered by many the founder of the worlds most popular style of HKD. 

From other MA such as Ed Parker's system, Bruce Lee, Remy Presas etc. the people with the highest Dans will all say they're the head of the system and most probably fight about it. Then many seperate Assocoations will start up.

That's my opinion on the sad and unfortunate reallity of the MA in general. But maybe thats how evolution works. 

Hapki

Stuart Rosenberg


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 12, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

I think I know what you are saying. When you have a particular teacher or leader it hard to think in terms of actually replacing that person. Personally I don't think its possible. Individuals such as Ji, Myung and Choi (among others) carve a special niche' for themselves and then simply leave a huge hole that no one can fill when they pass. When I think of succession, then,  I think of someone who embodies the essence of a particular kwan, organization or art passing responsibilities to an individual of the next generation who likewise embodies that essence. I'm not sure that succeeding individual would have to be a carbon-copy of his predecessor but I think that the folks associated with the original leader would need to feel comfortable that the new leader would a.) leader through practical application of his predecesors' philosophy and b.) could safe-guard the integrity of the arts' curriculum. If this could be done I think it would reduce the natural desire for people to strike-out on their own. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 12, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> Good topic.
> 
> ...



Hello Master Rosenberg:
Is it not unfortunate that passing the torch will almost certainly mean BIG changes for those who are left behind.  In a way, it is not unlike fighting over an inheritance which has caused many a family to split up.

In the lesser known arts like mine, I believe that having the highest ranking student take over may be a result of that particular student having the most knowledge about the particular art.  In an art like GM Ji teaches, there are so many who are right up there in knowledge, the choices are far more difficult.   Like you, I fear that we will see yet more systems and break ups.  Hopefully the art will not suffer more than it already has. :asian:


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 12, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

Sorry to sound like a broken record on this point but what about your  "Attitude"? 

I understand what you are saying about a person being technically accomplished. Now, what about the importance of your particular take or view on things. For instance, let me back-up to something you mentioned on another Net a little while back. 

The discussion was about how in your early days you were more of a "drill instructor" in your approach, and that with time you "mellowed" some and have become much more nurturing as a teacher. Would you want a person taking your role to be more of a drill sargeant and learn to mellow with time as did you ? Would you want your successor to learn from your "mistake" (??) and pick-up at the nurturing role that you developed into? As the head of your kwan is there a way you can increase the probability of having your successor express the sort of Attitude that you think is most beneficial for the survival of your art?  Would your membership be accepting if they recognized you as nurturing but characterized your successor as more of a drill sargeant ( I mean, if THIS were the way you would want things to go down)? Would you make any special efforts to encourage the membership to express allegiance (in some manner) to the individual who would be an identified successor while you were still around to troubleshoot the process?Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 12, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Rudy:
> 
> Sorry to sound like a broken record on this point but what about your  "Attitude"?
> 
> ...


Hello Bruce:
Something wrong with my attitude?   I thought I made my position pretty clear in my other post earlier on.  When I replied to Master Rosenberg, I said my belief is that lesser known arts tend to likely choose the one who has most knowledge.  I also believe that this is done because there are not too many people in high ranking positions waiting in the wings. 

This does not mean that I agree with it, and I still think that people will only follow those whom they can have a positive relationship with.  As I said, IMHO following a leader is not based on just learning more kicks and punches, it must also take in consideration many other things (including the attitude you mention).  This is why I said in my earlier post that I consider my job to include teaching those values to my higher students.  Alas, people will only take in what they want despite my best efforts.

Somewhat off topic, but still relevant IMHO.  You are very right about age bringing another dimension to the table.  I believe that being around a bit longer gives you a different outlook on what is important.  With age, there should come a bit of wisdom gained from experiences, and that is something you bring to the table as you teach.  Unfortunately, most younger leaders (including myself when I was young) tend to have a strong need to make their own mistakes (even when those mistakes have already been made by their teacher, and there was no need to repeat them).  

When I was younger, I thought I knew it all.  As I grow older, I realize just how very little I do know, and I am in a desperate hurry to learn more from all sources.  Before someone gets the idea that learning more from all sources will make me another Jack of all Trades, I have simply come to understand that without filling my cup now and then, it gets mighty empty when others drink from it on a steady basis.  In other words, I need to refuel the tank to keep going, but the gas I put in the tank does not necessarily change the direction of my journey... it certainly does not mean I will make changes to my art.  I simply like to learn things for myself, and I won't let the art I teach stand in the way for my thirst for knowledge (or becoming more effective in teaching my chosen art by what I learn.


----------



## American HKD (Jul 12, 2004)

Dear Rudy, kwanjang 

You Wrote: 

"...........When I was younger, I thought I knew it all. As I grow older, I realize just how very little I do know, and I am in a desperate hurry to learn more from all sources. Before someone gets the idea that learning more from all sources will make me another Jack of all Trades, I have simply come to understand that without filling my cup now and then, it gets mighty empty when others drink from it on a steady basis. In other words, I need to refuel the tank to keep going, but the gas I put in the tank does not necessarily change the direction of my journey... it certainly does not mean I will make changes to my art. I simply like to learn things for myself, and I won't let the art I teach stand in the way for my thirst for knowledge (or becoming more effective in teaching my chosen art by what I learn..........."

Sir, well put I feel the same way. 

As much as love HKD and the way I learned it there's so much out there to learn from. It keeps my interest up and my mind alert comparing new ideas and figuring out various applications etc.

A very eye opening expirience for me with Doju Ji 2 weeks ago. He said to me and a friend Instructor Roy Miyahara and I will paraphrase *"My method of teaching is to give you a foundation and the rest of what you learn or improve on is Ok, I will never say to you who taught you this or that etc." *
That was such an eye opener for me comming from a HKD tradional teacher. It made me think that's why HKD varies so much because of the Master Ji's attitude that many different opinions are all good vs the traditional it's only my way attitude.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 12, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

As always you have a way of hitting right to the heart of things. The only problem with your "Attitude", Rudy,  is that it comes from years of experience and there is no way we can BOTTLE it and share with the World through cases of I.V. bottles.  

I would also be lying if I said that your posts didn't hit a sort of sad note in me as I found myself agreeing with each of the points you made. Most certainly I wish folks could simply pick-up where you might leave us and simply continue to grow the art from that point forward. As you shared in your post, though, it almost seems like part of the human condition that folks must need make all of their own mistakes for themselves, sometimes in spite of evidence and experience to the contrary. Do you think, then, that the pattern of splitting after the loss of a leader is, in some way, inevitable? I ask this because it seems that the training of a martial art is to develop autonomy, and then, when the person has a highly developed sense of independent thought (say, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th dan), we ask them to demonstrate their development by participating in a dependent relationship with an organization. Should we really be surprized when a person who has trained to develop independent thought confuses Independence, with Dependence, with INTER-dependence and finally strike-off on their own at the drop of a hat? I wonder if we have a basic flaw in the way in which we develop practitioners to accept responsibility? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD (Jul 13, 2004)

Dear Bruce,

you write

........Do you think, then, that the pattern of splitting after the loss of a leader is, in some way, inevitable? I ask this because it seems that the training of a martial art is to develop autonomy, and then, when the person has a highly developed sense of independent thought (say, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th dan), we ask them to demonstrate their development by participating in a dependent relationship with an organization. Should we really be surprized when a person who has trained to develop independent thought confuses Independence, with Dependence, with INTER-dependence and finally strike-off on their own at the drop of a hat? I wonder if we have a basic flaw in the way in which we develop practitioners to accept responsibility? Thoughts?........

I'm more and more convinced this is the natural path of things. HKD has so many branches of the tree. 

In a sense it's suggested in MA to go on your own if not openly told to, otherwise we'd all be doing the same thing and MA would not evolve.

Bruce you and I would'nt have HKD as we know it if Ji just followed Choi completely. Alot of guts for such a young mans at the time would'nt you say.
Today we'd all laugh at a 25 year old starting his own system!

Doju Ji convinced me that independance and free thinking is the normal and natural path not the exception. Each man must develope himself completely.
Coming from a man with a true legacy that's very profound. 

Ji told a high ranking Master in Sin Moo and a good friend of mine that " My Cerificate is the best you dont need any other. All the high ranking masters around the world have his certs. I.E. Bong Soo Han, Kim Jin Pal, Duk, Myung, Ke Young Kim, Hwang In Sik, most of the KHF, KHA original Kwan Masters and so on.
They all have my rank then started thier own Kwans and Associations.

Doju Ji IMHO is not about controlling the future of HKD just sharing his knowledge with as many people as he can. He also clearly sees the fact that each person is differant and will turn out differant no matter what anyway.

Truely a GREAT Master that's why I say I don't think there's one to replace him.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 13, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

".....I'm more and more convinced this is the natural path of things. HKD has so many branches of the tree. ...." 

More and more I see that we are in agreement, but this doesn't address the concern that I have that maybe leadership in the modern world of Hapkido arts may actually be sending a mixed signal to its membership. 

A.) On the one hand the Hapkido arts develops Character and Integrity to fuel autonomous action so that the individual can come out of the best part of themselves, unimpeded, to serve their community. 

then-- 

B.) The individual is asked to subsume his autonomy under the auspices of an organization. 

My view of a kwan is not unlike the Buddhist Sangha or "community" where people of varied backgrounds come for support, suggestions, training, etc. by which to better live their Buddhist Path. There seem to be a growing number of "organized Sangha" by which a person (for a fee) can "learn meditation", or "attend a seminar". If a Buddhist is empowered to renounce attachments, how is it that one does this by attaching to an organization or commercial venture?  See what I mean? 

Personally I think that folks like Rudy and JR (West) are on the right track by providing venues where people of mixed heritage or lineage can come and get guidance independent of their individual agendas. I guess I am wondering how we pass this sort of tolerance and growth ethic on to the next generation? Does this make sense? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD (Jul 13, 2004)

Bruce,

".........I guess I am wondering how we pass this sort of tolerance and growth ethic on to the next generation? Does this make sense?.........."

Probably by setting good examples ourselves is the best thing we can do. 

They'll make mistakes along the way as we did and still do, but hopefully they'll come out on the right road.


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 14, 2004)

Hello Stuart (please call me Rudy) and Bruce:
Thank you for being so kind.  I think of my school and association as a family unit.  Some kids stick close to the home, and others will venture out into the world... as head of the family, you love them both the same.  Personally, I fully expect my students to go out and "build their own homes", and I actually encourage them to do just that.  However, I also try to teach them that leaving before you finish the meal kinda leaves you with an empty belly.

As was mentioned before, we see too many young people leaving their schools and Masters before they have had a chance to learn all (or most of) the technique the Master has to offer.  Too impatient to wait until it is the right time to learn (after you master what has been taught to you so far), they leave to learn more stuff from someone who is not so picky.  Then they add more of the same lower rank stuff they learned from their new source, so in the end they have a whole lot of first or second dahn stuff.  Unfortunately, as most of you know, the higher rank material often contains the "meat" of the program, and not having enough patience to learn it will tend to trim the original art down to bare roots.  That is how many arts will be lost to future generations.

This is a trend we see in life.  We stick the old folks with the knowledge in 'Homes", and we hire teenagers (with NO experience to teach our kids anything) to look after our children.  Now we have tons of knowledge wasting away (often without any visits from the family) in homes, and our kids are handed a remote control to get their learning.  Something is very wrong with this picture, and I am afraid in martial arts it is not much different.  People will come to see the young Bruce Lees who can do all sorts of fancy stuff, but no one notices these folks have not yet learned how to share their fancy stuff.  On the other end of the spectrum is the old Master who can no longer DO jumping spin kicks; however, he has a real knack of teaching folks how to do it.  Unfortunately, no one realizes this until it is too late, and the old Masters are gone to the great Dojang.

We are at a cross roads, and many of the old Masters will be gone before you know it.  When you have a chance to learn from the old men, DO IT NOW!


----------



## American HKD (Jul 14, 2004)

Dear Rudy,

I agree 100%. 

I was fortunate enough and envolved enough with eastern culture to learn to appreciate the wisdom and expirience of our elders.

The seasoned master deserve repect for thier knowledge and years of service to the Art, our western culture fails to teach this to the young people. 

A tragity at best. 

Again that's probably why I'm literaly having the greatest time of my life learning from Doju Ji now. He's mentioned many times that he's teaching us everything and holds nothing back. 
Doju Ji feels that his time is short and has much to teach to the younger instructors and people should realize this from any senior master and learn from them.

Thank you Rudy for discussing these truths.


----------



## Disco (Jul 14, 2004)

An interesting side bar has manifested itself. Rudy stipulated that the higher rank material often contains the "meat" of the program and Stuart stated that Doju Ji now is teaching us everything and holds nothing back. 

There is no refined way to pose this question, so if offense is taken, I apologize before hand. 

Just what do you consider the "meat" of a program and why is it held back until the higher ranks? To me and this is just my opinion, it smacks of doing a dis-service to the student. Perhaps it's just me and I'm confused with the concept of teacher - student relationship. I don't profess to be the most knowledgeable of teachers, but whatever I do know, my students know. If I should find something new within the world of martial arts and it would benefit my students, they get informed. When a student gives me his/her trust to teach, then that's what must be done. I can't predetermine that a student will be with me for X number of years, so it is my duty to afford as much training and knowledge as possible for whatever time period we have together. If a student leaves, whatever the reason, and I know that he was short changed, on purpose, then what would that make me? Again, this reflection is based upon what I think the "meat" of a program is. Other's viewpoint of meat may be different in context then mine. 

Respectfully
Mike Dunn


----------



## American HKD (Jul 14, 2004)

Mike,

No offense taken.

As with anything you go through the course, 1st grade through 12th, College then graduate school etc.

What I mean in regards to Ji han Jae is the following. I've been involved in an instructors training course with Master Ji, he made it a point to explain that he's teaching us the entire Sin Moo System, Philosophy Technique, Ki development, Mind development, etc. No secrets kept back.

Many Masters esspecially Old School types do in fact hold back high level or so called secret techniques from students for many reasons such as, 1. Power/control issues 2. Trust Issues 3. Self presevation issues, and so on. 

What I think you mean is, a good instructor teaches each student to the best of his ability and teaches each tech. to the fullest. I agree but to teach any Art properly you should be at a certain level as with anything else in life. 

You would'nt want a doctor who has a couple of years of Med school working on you, but a Black belt with 3,4,5 years in an Art can open a Dojang and call himself a Master because he has a flashy spin kick or something. 

What I think Rudy means is the students not getting the proper instuction from a under qualified person doesnt have the background or meat of the system mastered because they left there teacher to soon. It happens to be a big problem.

I know people who teach students from thier basements that have mastered nothing. What will those students do teach someone else eventually? Much less I'm sure.  



Any clearer?


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 14, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> An interesting side bar has manifested itself. Rudy stipulated that the higher rank material often contains the "meat" of the program and Stuart stated that Doju Ji now is teaching us everything and holds nothing back.
> 
> There is no refined way to pose this question, so if offense is taken, I apologize before hand.
> 
> ...



Hello Mike:
Absolutely no offense taken, and I'm sure none was meant.  I think Stuart pretty much said what I meant by the "meat" of the program not being taught until a student reached a certain level of expertise in training.

My way of teaching is pretty much like building a house.  I begin with the basic concepts.  Once they are fully understood (not just being able to mimic them), I begin teaching how these basic concepts relate to one another (Bruce mentioned he saw some of that concept of teaching at my last seminar). 

You would be surprised how many high ranking martial artists I find who do not yet "see" how techniques relate to one another.  For example.  I was at a seminar where a high ranking GM taught techniques.  Another high ranking gm (no cap) who runs a very successful organization was able to mimic all of the stuff pretty good; however, I saw with utter amazement that he was NOT able to use the material he already had been taught to help him with the new material he was shown.  In other words, he could only mimic.  To me this meant that he just did not "know" Hap Ki Do, and all he could do was a pretty good job of mimicing some individual techniques.  With the amount of material in Hap Ki Do, and the inability to see how this material inter relates, he will be in his grave before he knows Hap Ki Do.  It is like having to learn 3608 seperate techniques instead of a few hundred principles.  Unfortunately, all the folks he teaches will know nothing more than a collection of techniques.  They will NOT know Hap Ki Do.  

Once the idea of learning principles is grasped, a student begins to "see" opportunities in a confrontation without having to think about them.  In other words, they can react to a situation instinctively.  After all, an arm bar in any form is still just an arm bar, even if you execute it with your legs instead of your hands.  You simply MUST know how to do your techniques from any given situation without the need of someone to show you how it works pretty much the same on the ground as standing up.  It is only after that, I can begin to teach what I consider the meat of a program.  To teach what comes next to someone who does not get this is sort of like teaching a black belt group with one white belt in the class who just does not "fit" in despite how hard he tries.  

So you can see I don't hold things back, and I have no secret techniques I don't want to share.  I am often simply not given enough time to get to the calculus after teaching the basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division problems.  Frustrating to say the least.  At the same time, it is easy to see how a young black belt with 8-10 years experience can think he has everything he needs.  After all, he can do all of the fancy stuff already, and the "calculus" lessons just seem to be boring.  I am sure someone else might be able to explain this better, but that is basically what I meant with my comments.

Oh, one more thing.  If you ever seen an Instructor who just "shows" his students loads of techniques, you have probably run into someone who does not know how to teach.  IMHO, simply sharing more techniques is not teaching... that takes someone who knows how to make you understand what you are doing.  Look around, and you'll see bunches of the former, and very few of the latter.  Some of them are the grandmasters (no cap) we were talking about earlier.


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 14, 2004)

Had another incident a while back that sort of relates to the subject above.  At a seminar I taught was in attendance a 7th dahn in (supposedly) Hap Ki Do.  At one of the intermissions, I saw him sitting with his hands on his head sort of dejected.  Thinking I was not fullfilling his needs, I was concerned.  Instead, he related to me that in his 32 years of experience in Hap Ki Do (most of that time with some well known Masters), he was blown away by the basics I was teaching the class. He was just miffed about that.

I observed him a bit closer afterwards, and I noticed one major problem.  He knew lots of techniques, and he could actually do them pretty well.  He had good motion; however, he was not USING the Hap Ki Do he knew.

The seminar I taught was basic material; however, I did show how each of the techniques could be used in conjunction with the other techniques I taught.  Like teaching someone a bunch of pressure points and finding he does not use them when he is doing joint locks.  To use them together is a simple idea right, and you would expect that Hap Ki Do people with 32 years experience would automatically do that.  Wrong!!!!!


----------



## Disco (Jul 14, 2004)

Somewhat clearer, in sections........

He made it a point to explain that he's teaching us the entire Sin Moo System, Philosophy Technique, Ki development, Mind development, etc. No secrets kept back.

No disrespect intended here, just my Philosophical viewpoints.
On Philosophy Technique, I'm a little confused with the intent/meaning. If the meaning is why a technique is performed a certain way, my opinion is white belts should know why and how. Mind development, another perplexing dichotomy. Personally, I feel I can only attempt to influence a persons mind, muchless develop it. With the proliferation of high ranking infighting and deceitful ongoings, one would assume that that aspect has fallen short world wide in general. Ki development..........If were talking as an adjunct to physical development, then again that should also be at the beginning levels. Now if it's going into the realm of "Ripley's believe it or not", that could become a thread unto itself.

Many Masters esspecially Old School types do in fact hold back high level or so called secret techniques from students for many reasons such as, 1. Power/control issues 2. Trust Issues 3. Self presevation issues, and so on. 

I may be putting you on the spot here, but could you give a "small" example of what you would consider a so called secret technique. When I hear this type of verbage, I invision the infamous "Dim mak". As I stated prior, I don't profess to be all knowing, but I am all inquisitive. 
As for the power/control issue, again they either learn to handle this at the beginning stages or you just have a bully/egomanic on your hands. Those people should leave early in the training. They do if I'm involved. Trust, another issue that should show itself early on in the beginning stages of training. Self preservation ties into trust. 

You would'nt want a doctor who has a couple of years of Med school working on you, but a Black belt with 3,4,5 years in an Art can open a Dojang and call himself a Master because he has a flashy spin kick or something. 

Well, going to an ER, that's exactly what your going to get. They have to start somewhere. As for a BB with 3,4,5 years in the arts opening a dojang, it depends on the style I guess. I have seen more than a few Korean Masters farm out their BB's to open satellite schools and of course funnel funds back into the main school. 

What I think Rudy means is the students not getting the proper instuction from a under qualified person doesnt have the background or meat of the system mastered because they left there teacher to soon. It happens to be a big problem.

I agree in principle here, but just what is the time element to receive the "meat" of the system. It almost looks were going in a circle here, cause now where back to the original premise.

I know people who teach students from thier basements that have mastered nothing. What will those students do teach someone else eventually? Much less I'm sure. 

Point taken, but now comes the real crux of the subject. How, when do you know you have mastered something? To my way of thinking, it's a continuous learning and perfecting of elements of a system. There is really no way to really "master" anything. I'm a human being, with flaws and restrictions. Therefor incapable of mastering anything. Now I can become very proficient and better than the average person, but mastering something is unattainable. Semantics I know, but I think we can see the point. 

Thanks for the input. Enjoy discussing with you, Bruce and Rudy.  :asian:


----------



## Disco (Jul 14, 2004)

Master Rudy, thanks for the reply. Understand what you mean when you stipulate understand not mimic. Sorry to say that you are correct in that there are many who teach and don't really understand. This subject can get really deep and intense. Thanks again for taking the time to reply. One of these days we'll be able to get together and have some fun.  :asian:


----------



## American HKD (Jul 14, 2004)

Dear Mike,

*Great questions but not simple answers, I will try to give you some ideas of what I'm talking about. *
*Also I think you refered to me as Bruce at the end of your last post?*

Somewhat clearer, in sections........

He made it a point to explain that he's teaching us the entire Sin Moo System, Philosophy Technique, Ki development, Mind development, etc. No secrets kept back.

No disrespect intended here, just my Philosophical viewpoints.
On Philosophy Technique, I'm a little confused with the intent/meaning. If the meaning is why a technique is performed a certain way, my opinion is white belts should know why and how. Mind development, another perplexing dichotomy. Personally, I feel I can only attempt to influence a persons mind, muchless develop it. *Not someone elses mind your own mind and its higher funtions. *With the proliferation of high ranking infighting and deceitful ongoings, one would assume that that aspect has fallen short world wide in general. Ki development..........If were talking as an adjunct to physical development, then again that should also be at the beginning levels. *Some yes.  **There are different types of Ki simple and natural,  some must be developed and taught how to use and what it's for.*
Now if it's going into the realm of "Ripley's believe it or not", that could become a thread unto itself. 

Many Masters esspecially Old School types do in fact hold back high level or so called secret techniques from students for many reasons such as, 1. Power/control issues 2. Trust Issues 3. Self presevation issues, and so on. 

I may be putting you on the spot here, but could you give a "small" example of what you would consider a so called secret technique. When I hear this type of verbage, I invision the infamous "Dim mak". As I stated prior, I don't profess to be all knowing, but I am all inquisitive.  *There are very dangerous tech. from HKD that you may consider Dim Mak however I don't profess to have Mastered them although resently taught, also special tatics and oppnent control through your sprit and others means etc.  Again too much for this venue. *

As for the power/control issue, again they either learn to handle this at the beginning stages or you just have a bully/egomanic on your hands. *Yes* 
Those people should leave early in the training. They do if I'm involved. Trust, another issue that should show itself early on in the beginning stages of training. Self preservation ties into trust. *Yes*

You would'nt want a doctor who has a couple of years of Med school working on you, but a Black belt with 3,4,5 years in an Art can open a Dojang and call himself a Master because he has a flashy spin kick or something. 

Well, going to an ER, that's exactly what your going to get. They have to start somewhere. As for a BB with 3,4,5 years in the arts opening a dojang, it depends on the style I guess. *Maybe but I doubt it. *I have seen more than a few Korean Masters farm out their BB's to open satellite schools and of course funnel funds back into the main school. *Yes for "money".*

What I think Rudy means is the students not getting the proper instuction from a under qualified person doesnt have the background or meat of the system mastered because they left there teacher to soon. It happens to be a big problem.

I agree in principle here, but just what is the time element to receive the "meat" of the system. *Everyones different and so are Masters no set time it's an individual assesment for each person.  That is as Rudy said "if the student stays long enough to complete and mature into that level"*

It almost looks were going in a circle here, cause now where back to the original premise. 

I know people who teach students from thier basements that have mastered nothing. What will those students do teach someone else eventually? Much less I'm sure. 

Point taken, but now comes the real crux of the subject. How, when do you know you have mastered something? To my way of thinking, it's a continuous learning and perfecting of elements of a system. There is really no way to really "master" anything. I'm a human being, with flaws and restrictions. Therefor incapable of mastering anything. Now I can become very proficient and better than the average person, but mastering something is unattainable. Semantics I know, but I think we can see the point. 

Thanks for the input. Enjoy discussing with you, Bruce and Rudy. *I'm Stuart not Bruce.*


----------



## Disco (Jul 14, 2004)

Stuart, you may have read it to quickly. I referenced all 3 of you gentlemen.
Thanks for the input. Enjoy discussing with you, Bruce and Rudy. I'm Stuart not Bruce. 

Thanks again for your reply.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 14, 2004)

I hear folks talking about what has become a pretty rare commodity in the Hapkido Arts. 

There is no doubt that the Hapkido arts have some very accomplished practitioners. 

There is no doubt that there is a lot of very sophisticated material and we could even take it higher. 

There is no doubt that there are some very motivated folks who want to learn. 

What I am finding it that the place in this World where one can find the point  at which these three assets intersect to produce growth for the arts is typically about the size of a doormat and is right next door to where they keep the Holy Grail and the One True Cross and just across the street from the Easter Bunnys' house. Lets discount for a moment that most people will not accept leadership and teaching from a martial art teacher without the requisite epicanthic fold to the eye and the pidgin English. Lets put to one side that really learning a MA instead of just familiarizing oneself with a range of techniques is a thankless bit of anal retention. Lets consider that really getting good at a MA is a lot like pissing in a dark suit--- it may give you a warm feeling but nobody really notices (unless someone starts grandstanding for the acclaim). Having said all that, just how do you folks propose to pass our arts on to the next generation without them cutting corners? Isn't this really the sum total of the issue? The last generation busted their humps to pass things to us. We bust our butts to do the best we can with what we have been given. How do we increase the probability that the next generation will be as passionate about maintaining our arts as are we? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD (Jul 14, 2004)

Mike

Thanks your right I missed it.


----------



## American HKD (Jul 14, 2004)

Bruce,

You wrote

..........Having said all that, just how do you folks propose to pass our arts on to the next generation without them cutting corners? Isn't this really the sum total of the issue? The last generation busted their humps to pass things to us. We bust our butts to do the best we can with what we have been given. How do we increase the probability that the next generation will be as passionate about maintaining our arts as are we? Thoughts? 

Very Seriousy.

I think based on my expirence in my school, teaching for many years for my Instructor seeing what's really popular in MA today. 

1. HKD needs to be organizied so it's suited for more people. 
2. It's not good for young kids. 
3. It has a very narrow window of appeal for adults.
4. HKD is not well known. 
5. HKD is most suited for guys/gals who dont mind pain taking lots of falls and getting there arms twisted over & over like you, me, Mike & Rudy.

My friends TSD schools has 4 locations aprox. 500-600 students, only 15 to 20 take the SM HKD classes he offers. I talked to many of them and they think TSD is better and doesn't hurt!

It need more of the following.

1. Add more fun elements people like sport sparring.
2. Teach weapons sooner.
3. Some cross training.
4. Fun drills

Then maybe some serious students will emerge who will study the complete Art.

Thought and were also off topic.


----------



## Disco (Jul 14, 2004)

We bust our butts to do the best we can with what we have been given. How do we increase the probability that the next generation will be as passionate about maintaining our arts as are we?

I personally feel we (generalization) are in a bad downward trend. I don't see the people taking to the arts anymore. Society has become to technically orientated. Even back in Korea, so I have been informed, the arts are for children. The percentage of adults who take up or continue in the arts is almost nil. If the birthplace of our art is suffering, where does that leave us? With our economy not in the best of shape, people don't have the extra funds for non-necessities. Even the people who's jobs depend on self protection, i.e. Police and Corrections, are not willing or feel there's no need to take on the extra training. In the past year alone, I have seen a lot of schools close. Even a couple of the bigger TKD dojangs just couldn't handle the overhead. Sad, but I think were coming to the end of the rainbow so to speak.


----------



## Disco (Jul 14, 2004)

Stuart, just saw your post and you bring up some very serious and important items. Your correct in all your comments regarding HKD. Your TSD friend's schools has 500 to 600 students? That's fantastic, love to know how he's doing it. I was under the assumption that TSD also uses joint locks and some throws. Perhaps his style does not, ergo the number of students. Perhaps it's something the HKD community could / should review.


----------



## Kumbajah (Jul 14, 2004)

"My friends TSD schools has 4 locations aprox. 500-600 students, only 15 to 20 take the SM HKD classes he offers. I talked to many of them and they think TSD is better and doesn't hurt!

 It need more of the following.

 1. Add more fun elements people like sport sparring.
 2. Teach weapons sooner.
 3. Some cross training.
 4. Fun drills

 Then maybe some serious students will emerge who will study the complete Art."



I can't believe that you are actually calling for this. If I wanted to take Combat Hapkido, I would have. I don't want to see Hapkido go the way of TKD, with a McDojang on every corner. If you don't want to fall down and get your arm twisted don't take Hapkido. Judo,karate, and Kung Fu's popularity has ebbed and waned and they are still around. Jujitsu has had a resurgence thanks to the Gracies and they haven't had to homogenize their art for mass consumption. Your argument as it presented - "the more students I have the better the art." Hogwash - all it does is line pockets. Its a great art. Leave the tiny tigers and executive programs to the McDojangs. The weeding out process is what makes the art strong. Those that have the patience and fortitude for the long haul will be good and pass it along. 

Brian Beach


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 15, 2004)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> Your argument as it presented - "the more students I have the better the art." Hogwash - all it does is line pockets. Its a great art. Leave the tiny tigers and executive programs to the McDojangs. The weeding out process is what makes the art strong. Those that have the patience and fortitude for the long haul will be good and pass it along.
> 
> Brian Beach



To be very honest, in a small city like mine there are not enough interested people for me to keep my doors open if I taught MY way.  So, to keep the doors open (and still introduce people to the art I love) I take on the kids and the wooses who don't want to "feel" what a technique is all about.  By doing so, I give those who want to experience the real McCoy a home, I introduce the art I love to more people than I ever could if the school was closed because it could not meet the overhead, and I get to train myself.

In my school today, I have just a mere dozen or so people who want to hit the mat.  All others like to "think" they take martial arts, but they don't want to feel the pain that goes with the learning: however, they DO make it possible for me to have my "dirty dozen"  How do others deal with this?


----------



## American HKD (Jul 15, 2004)

Dear Brian,

Rudy understands my point exactly I'm glad I'm not alone on this. 

I live and train in a fairly large suburb 10-15 minutes from Philadelphia. Believe me its hard to get people who really want to train in HKD. 

My teachers school as been in Philly since 1978 and he is a world class master and technician. However his school only produced 20 some BB, a few 2nd dans and myself. Not that good for a big city, high level master with a long time school? 

In order to teach "True HKD" you have to keep the doors of the school open whether you do it for a side income or to make your full living.

I've been in this Art for over 20 years, If you dont have a school and are not a Master or life long HKD student as myself or Rudy I don't expect you to be able to honestly assess this serious situation and I know you mean well.

For the record HKD will die out completly or evolve into something else "Combat HKD" in a short period of time when there are'nt enough well trainned Masters to take over the next generation and run successful money making schools. 

*A few die hards like yourself and me for that matter are not enough to save HKD future. Sorry!*

Hapki,

Stuart Rosenberg


----------



## Master Todd Miller (Jul 15, 2004)

I have a small dojang here in NH and we have about 10 people who want the real thing.  My teacher in Korea GM Lim, Hyun Soo 9th dan has about 15 - 20 Masters that keep on training.  Jungki Hapkido tends to weed out those not willing to experience good hard training!  This has always been the way of things and I am guessing it will continue as long as people are human.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 15, 2004)

Dear Brian, Stuart et al: 

You fellas are hitting on exactly the reason I started this string in the first place. I am not all that worried about the "ICHF-s" among us. They will always be around-- coming and going. What I am concerned with are the messages, philosophies, techniques and institutions that the more conservative practitioners are following. Over the years I have been roasted and toasted for speaking up in the most unlikely places. Recently when there was so much turmoil in the KHF people were asking me why I, a WHF member, would even care what the KHF was doing? The same goes for the upcoming international event in Canada in 2005, the bi-annual International in Jackson and Rudys' annual seminar schedule across North America. IMVVHO without defining ways in which institutions here in No America will be passed to the next generation, the Hapkido Arts are made vulnerable to folks comng in from outside the country and imposing their management on the arts here. My apologies to folks here that may be associated with GM Lim (Malaysia) but I see his efforts along this line. In like manner I see the efforts of the "new" KHF Korean leadership as doing the same. There is a reason that when I am asked to come to a place and give a seminar on KMA I often travel at my own expense and teach for free. My art means that much to me. There is a reason I want to learn about the other organizations and what they are doing and promote the ones that are working to offer quality experiences. It means that much to me. There is a reason that I speak out where I think I see need for improvement. It means that much to me. The only place I don't see folks working to better things is in the area of succession. Here I still see a real "achilles heel".  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 15, 2004)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> I have a small dojang here in NH and we have about 10 people who want the real thing.  My teacher in Korea GM Lim, Hyun Soo 9th dan has about 15 - 20 Masters that keep on training.  Jungki Hapkido tends to weed out those not willing to experience good hard training!  This has always been the way of things and I am guessing it will continue as long as people are human.
> 
> Take care
> Todd Miller
> ...



Hello Todd:
In the old days around the mid sixties to early seventies I had a job and taught every evening at my storefront school.  My students and myself (no kids) were about as hard nosed as you can get, and life was wonderful even though I had to make up the rent shortcomings every month.

After I injured my back, I received a bit of money from back Workers Comp, and I bought an old building which the students and I transformed into the Dojang I now have.  Having been self employed for ages now, there never seemed to be enough money to put aside for a pension plan of any kind.  Just not enough money in martial arts in my area, and I always had the stupid idea that a true Master did not charge. 

End of story is I am in my sixties now, and I can't afford to throw out diligent students who want something different than I want for myself... like martial art lessons that allows them to get to their job instead of calling in injured one more time.  I understand their motives now I'm a little older, and I agree with them because jobs are hard to come by.  Calling in sick because of hobby injuries will get you tossed out faster than you can imagine, and training the old way is just not worth that risk to them.

Not crying the blues here (maybe a bit of wishful thinking), but just interested in how you manage to keep YOUR doors open with just twenty or so students?  Do you have a store front?  Are you paying rent?  Just curious, because I'm never too old to learn and I'd sure like to go back to the old ways if I could manage that.  I hope you are willing to share with us how you manage it.


----------



## Kumbajah (Jul 15, 2004)

Stuart et al,

I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere. My view is this: yes, you need to have an influx of students. People come in try a class they either like it or not. If they like it they sign up. They proceed with the curriculum. It gets harder - they either rise to to it and proceed or they fade away. The people who stay have gone through the works and are good practitioners and vale what their hard work has gotten them. If you dumb down the curriculum to keep everyone there where's the value in it. Most don't value what has come easily to them. You are just creating a karrotie social club were everyone can feel good about themselves. You are turning the art into a commodity, so everyone has the right as a consumer to go as far as they are willing to pay. It doesn't seem to me a way to keep the art healthy and vital. So it sounds like you think Hapkido or your studio has a marketing problem. (i.e attracting the "short timers " ) There is no need to change the art. It is the true art that attracts the short timers to begin with. "I want to be just like Sabunim Stewart or Kwanjangnim Rudy" - "Teach me to throw a guy around like that". 

To draw an example not everyone who takes piano lessons is going to be a concert pianist. Just because you have a room full of people that can play chopsticks doesn't mean you are a great teacher or piano is going to be the most popular/vital/enduring instrument. You don't take a way some of the keys so everyone can play.  That is the beauty of  art - you may never get there, it is the process, the stretching of your boundaries. Those who achieve mastery are a sight or sound to behold. There will be some that want to emulate that. You can't make people love something by giving it a false face, it the facade that they love not the art. How does that serve the art?

Brian


----------



## Martial Tucker (Jul 15, 2004)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> Stuart et al,
> 
> I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere. My view is this: yes, you need to have an influx of students. People come in try a class they either like it or not. If they like it they sign up. They proceed with the curriculum. It gets harder - they either rise to to it and proceed or they fade away. The people who stay have gone through the works and are good practitioners and vale what their hard work has gotten them. If you dumb down the curriculum to keep everyone there where's the value in it. Most don't value what has come easily to them. You are just creating a karrotie social club were everyone can feel good about themselves. You are turning the art into a commodity, so everyone has the right as a consumer to go as far as they are willing to pay. It doesn't seem to me a way to keep the art healthy and vital. So it sounds like you think Hapkido or your studio has a marketing problem. (i.e attracting the "short timers " ) There is no need to change the art. It is the true art that attracts the short timers to begin with. "I want to be just like Sabunim Stewart or Kwanjangnim Rudy" - "Teach me to throw a guy around like that".
> 
> ...


Brian,

I am a student, not a teacher or school owner. I agree with your sentiment completely. I belong to a terrific school. Thank God my teacher has a good day job. I would be shocked if his school is even breaking even, but he is OK with that as he loves the art enough to teach "non-profit". We have a very good, traditional curriculum, where our teacher demands respect and treats us with the same respect. We get a good workout, learn a lot, and have many laughs in each class. In my 8 years as a student, I have seen just about every type of person come in and try a free month. It doesnt take long to know who will be hanging around and who won't, and it has nothing to do with athletic ability or conditioning. The problem is, in our "instant gratification/make EVERYONE feel good about themself" society, VERY few people are willing to push themselves at all to find out what they are truly capable of accomplishing. I am at the tail end of the "baby boomer" generation, and I feel my generation is incredibly spoiled and unappreciative of the blessings they have been given, and most feel as though they are entitled to the successes and good things that life has to offer, but our parents had to work their butts off for. And we're raising our kids to be worse than we are. 
Anyway, coming down off my soapbox, I will agree with your comment that watering down a curriculum does not serve the art. Unfortunately, in this day and age, I can also see that a "straight" curriculum rarely pays the rent.


----------



## American HKD (Jul 15, 2004)

Greeting,

After hearing from all of you I think we all have pros and cons to our veiws and I respect all of your veiws. 

I expressed my opinions based on my 20 plus years in HKD and how things work around here. 

I'm not in favor of disgarding traditional ways only making a modified curriculum for those who want more kids & family type training or those who are older and can't do things the hard core types want. 

A good balance of the two will go farther and be better for HKD's future IMHO.

As for money I'm comfortably self employed and can pay my bills but usually loose a few $$ monthly in regards to HKD. My students are generally adult professionals, we train hard but careful not to over due things that can cause injury etc., my people must go to work the next day.


----------



## whalen (Jul 15, 2004)

A few die hards like yourself and me for that matter are not enough to save HKD future. Sorry!

Stu, hit the nail right on the head unfortunately a lot people Talk the Talk. When it comes time to walk the walk they let their fingers do the walking Kind of like a keyboard warrior.

Does Hapkido want to be saved ? Or has it become a supplement To keep Dojangs afloat while they push Taekwondo

There are a few out there that have always taught Hapkido even when it was not as popular as it is now. These are the Dojangs the are struggling because they hold the Hapkido they learned sacred. And try not  to water it down or delute what they have learned.

My Friend Rudy mentioned about how it used to be he was correct. When i first taught Hapkido in 1979 I introduced  my assistant instructor to the class it was the "Jok-Do"  Today you would end up in a law-suite.

  Hal


----------



## Kumbajah (Jul 15, 2004)

After the success of the KHF friendship seminar, Master West's events, the Hapkido Games in Europe are you truly this pessimistic about the future of Hapkido? Our Federation has an event planned for 2005 in Vancouver. In conjuction with GM Bong Soo Han and GM Kim Duk In. I'm also seeing more articles about Hapkido in MA magazines. 

I see the spark that gets in the eye of GM Jin Pal Kim when he comes to throw us around.  He loves it and is passing the love along. I won't be the one carrying the torch but I'll damn sure have a match. 

Brian

"follow your bliss" - josph campbell


----------



## Master Todd Miller (Jul 15, 2004)

End of story is I am in my sixties now, and I can't afford to throw out diligent students who want something different than I want for myself... like martial art lessons that allows them to get to their job instead of calling in injured one more time. I understand their motives now I'm a little older, and I agree with them because jobs are hard to come by. Calling in sick because of hobby injuries will get you tossed out faster than you can imagine, and training the old way is just not worth that risk to them.


I agree,  People have to work and cannot afford to have serious injury but they do happen!  I have more than 10 students training at my dojang.  I am talking about the 10 that will hold to the teaching My GM and I have been trying to impart.  That # hopfully will get larger as time goes on but the fact is that there will always be those that like the hard training of Hapkido and those that do not!  I personally feel if I have produced 1 student who will be inspired by Hapkido that I have been successful. :asian: 

Just a few of my thoughts!

Take care 
Todd Miller
Korea jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


----------



## Black Belt FC (Jul 15, 2004)

The success of Hapkido or any another martial arts depends on one key factor: it must have a user friendly and well structure curriculum. My schools Hapkido class has been very successful largely to a clear and well-planned class. A regular class in my school has been growing rapidly due largely to the following: 



Falls-At my school I teach 12 different types of falls that we review every single session. Student has less change of getting hurt if they learn falls by repeating them every week. 



Foot Work- I teach several patterns of footwork that students learn and will apply with wrist, kicking, punching and weapon techniques that will be use as they graduate throw the ranks. 



Buildup: Students are given a basic foundation that the other more advance techniques will build on. The basic, intermediate and advance techniques must intertwine with each order in that order that students can make a connection with them; thus learning and comfort level is at peak.



KISS system (Keep It Simple Sam)- Instruction must be kept simple and direct and adjusted when students are undergoing difficult time learning. Five well-learned techniques are better than 20 poorly learn applications, dont overload the students that will only frustrate them.



Communication: Teach Hapkido techniques in English, students didnt sign-up to learn a second language. Its hard enough that they feel awkward about learning Hapkido, they dont need to feel obtuse about knowing what a Korean word means.





Just my three cents take it for what it worth, its working well for me.


Lugo


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 16, 2004)

Dear Brian: 

".....After the success of the KHF friendship seminar, Master West's events, the Hapkido Games in Europe are you truly this pessimistic about the future of Hapkido? ....." 

I have not gotten to the pessimism stage just yet, but I do have a lot of anxiety for the future of the Hapkido arts. Its not just care one must take with teaching and learning. To me thats just common sense. What I get concerned with is the natural tendency of folks to cut corners and modify material. I get tired of folks introducing weaponry and techniques from other arts without first mastering the material of Hapkido first. Scott Shaw has published more than a little material on "Hapkido" routinely making reference to Japanese Budo. Phillippino stick-fighting and Indonesian knife-fighting are likewise making in-roads. Ask about Korean sword and people are doing Kendo. Ask about staff work and people are doing Japanese or Okinawan staff. Hell, there are at least 8 major Hapkido organizations regularly referred to in the media. How many of these utilize a commonly recognized curriculum (other than their own).

And what about the value systems? Ask about the martial values of KMA and people are reading books like the HAGAKURE on JAPANESE martial values! MA teachers don't seem to want to press the O-Gae as a true value system for personal conduct for fear of alienating their students. People invoke the Confucian and Neo-Confucian philosophy, but how many have actually read-up on these values and their history?  

But the true concern for me lies in the apathy. "I don't have time for that" and "who cares" are among the usual responses to advocating for these traditions and their promotion. And there are a lot more people with that kind of thinking. I am absolutely amazed at the numbers of practitioners I have run into who still think that testosterone, physicality and stoicism are the primary criteria following a Warriors Path. Pick below the surface and what you get are gossip, mean-spiritedness and commerce. So what gets passed to the next generation? Seems like its the trappings of following a Martial path without actually having to live it. This is what I worry will not be passed along to the next generation. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Kumbajah (Jul 16, 2004)

Couple of questions for clarity - The philosophy side - martial arts without philosophy is just fighting. If the Hwarang code of ethics is the where you'd like to hang your hat - what ever their origins maybe should the Hapkido community be taking a cue from Hwrang-do? They might not be the shining example of the code but as least they are proponents of it.

On the influence side - I won't get into Scott Shaw thats a completely different discussion. I think that we ( at least the ones that follow the BBS) know your stance on hapkido influences (korean native with chinese influences) but it is hard to deny the influence of Diato Ryu Aikijujitsu wouldn't some of the weapons be influenced by that culture? If you wanted to take the "pure" Korean view should Hapkido be taking a look how Kuk Sul Won organizes material? 

Both arts are Hapkido influenced - so would a fair view of your ideal Hapkido curriculum be some sort of conglomeration of the three to keep a pure korean approach? 

The two leaders of these arts have tried to distance themselves from Hapkido. So do we need to wait for their passing to have a true synergy between the Hapki arts? So perhaps the "Golden age" is not yet upon us. - just a thought

Brian


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 16, 2004)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> I agree,  People have to work and cannot afford to have serious injury but they do happen!  I have more than 10 students training at my dojang.  I am talking about the 10 that will hold to the teaching My GM and I have been trying to impart.  That # hopfully will get larger as time goes on but the fact is that there will always be those that like the hard training of Hapkido and those that do not!  I personally feel if I have produced 1 student who will be inspired by Hapkido that I have been successful. :asian:



Ah. I see that we are actually not that far apart in our take on things.  While I do have a much larger contingent of folks who cannot or don't want to train as hard as I would like to see it, I DO have a fair number of folks whom I can push.  Heck they even let me play with my Jook Do without suing me 

Hal my friend, Canada is not as bad for law suits, you'll have to come over someday and do some work with my boys.  It will be great for them to see that I am not the only one around who does this  After the back problem, I am not fit enough to really take the lead with the younger lads these days, and they could use a good tune up by a Master

Talking about the great time we have at the West seminar, my own seminars, and some of the other seminars around, I don't think they are in the same realm of hard training we are talking about.  Sure, we have a great time, but I see a lot of folks who would not fit into my group of hard core students even though they do work hard.

IMHO, what makes these events great is the interaction between the various Masters.  While we all teach Hap Ki Do, there are enough differences to show there is quite a depth to HKD, and we are willing to accept them without becoming anal about these differences.

As long as we keep up the hard work, I think we will survive.  In the meantime, we need to take advantage of the students who help us keep the doors open.  It's been a great discussion.  Thanks for sharing your experiences Todd.  I also enjoyed "meeting" Stuart and hearing from all my old friends.  Coming North anytime soon Hal.  You know all of you folks have a second home here eh


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 16, 2004)

Dear Brian: 

You seem to have a real knack for putting a lot of stuff in just a few words. I could probably learn a lot from you there!  

I don't think anyone can deny that the Koreans have been at the crossroads between Japanese and Chinese culture for centuries. So I won't ever deny the input from Japan. Where I get concerned is when folks focus on the Japanese influences and won't give Korean and Chinese contributions their due but thats a rant for another string. Suffice to say that if people are looking for a code to pursue along the lines of martial traditions the Koreans have had such a value system for genrations. Nor do we need to construct some system based on a fabriacted heritage. Joo Bang Lees' HwaRangDo is just as chocked full of inaccuracies and inconsistencies as the Kuk Sool peoples' take on things. In a way its a little like Buddhism. In the faith that I practice people are always trying to gussy it up with robes, and mantras, lamas and priests, temples and magic mind powers. Fact is that Buddhism is pretty nuts&bolts. No heaven, no Hell. Do the right thing, the best that you can, for the short period that you are here. Then you die. 

Korean martial traditions are just about as stark. The sword is NOT the "soul of the warrior", Korean warriors DON'T have a heritage of patrilinear succession, there AREN'T any fancy titles or positions or uniforms. Problem is that most people seem so taken with the TRAPPINGS of following a Warriors' Path, and "acting" like a warrior, that they never quite get around to BEING a warrior. In this way its a lot like Christianity. Its easy to identify oneself as a Christian, but just try to actually live by those guidelines that have been around for 2000 years! So to respond to your thought I don't know that I would be very invested in trying to follow Lee or Suh in their respective groups. I look at the kinds of people they have associated with them and ask myself if I want to turn out like that. I think not. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jul 16, 2004)

"So to respond to your thought I don't know that I would be very invested in trying to follow Lee or Suh in their respective groups. I look at the kinds of people they have associated with them and ask myself if I want to turn out like that. I think not. FWIW." 

Four words:
John Pellegrini's Combat Hapkido

'Nuff said.


----------



## Black Belt FC (Jul 16, 2004)

International and National associations whose main object is to act as a governing body will have a few individuals of questionable ability and training history. ALL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE THEM, for an example the Kukkikwon for Taekwondo. Im certified by them and will not drop my membership/certification if I encounter someone with unduly earned rank (and I have)? 

Ultimately its about where your focus lays, training or policing. As a school owner my objective in getting involve with a association is to have a governing body to certified my students, I will oversee and make sure that they are ready before they earn rank since my reputation is on the line. After a while most association will drop you if you begin to sell or give away rank; for example the Hapkido master who was kicked out from a well-known association.

I have no interest in policing anyone or his or her history it doesnt make me a better martial artist; besides I prefer not to throw stones.


----------



## Kumbajah (Jul 16, 2004)

"You seem to have a real knack for putting a lot of stuff in just a few words."

Most describe it as "ten pounds of ***** in a five pound bag" - but thanks

So as far as Hapkido philosophy is concerned you see the basic touch stones as: the five rules, the nine virtues and the 3 principles of Hapkido. Can you guide to where these tenets can be researched? For the most part I have just seen them listed with a brief description of each. Or is that your point - interpret them as we see fit? 

Brian


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 16, 2004)

Black Belt FC said:
			
		

> International and National associations whose main object is to act as a governing body will have a few individuals of questionable ability and training history. ALL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE THEM, for an example the Kukkikwon for Taekwondo. Im certified by them and will not drop my membership/certification if I encounter someone with unduly earned rank (and I have)?
> 
> Ultimately its about where your focus lays, training or policing. As a school owner my objective in getting involve with a association is to have a governing body to certified my students, I will oversee and make sure that they are ready before they earn rank since my reputation is on the line. After a while most association will drop you if you begin to sell or give away rank; for example the Hapkido master who was kicked out from a well-known association.
> 
> I have no interest in policing anyone or his or her history it doesnt make me a better martial artist; besides I prefer not to throw stones.



This is exactly the way I look at it.  Churches, Governments, or Associations... name any organization where people gather, and you WILL have problems with the conduct of some of their following.  It does not mean we condone it, it does not mean that those who belong to any of these groups ALSO do it, and it certainly does not mean they are worthless.  Black Belt said he gets value for his efforts and dollars, and that is the bottom line for all of us who do see value in belonging to a certain group.

Even though it is well documented that there are MAJOR problems with the leadership of the association he belongs to, Michigan himself must be getting SOMETHING out of that organization. I would find it ludicrous for folks to allude that he is a fraud who can't be trusted with money, just because he belongs to that organization.  Michigan, it is beyond me why you continue to throw stones at everything you do not understand, know the details about, or disagree with, especially because your own organization's closet has enough skeletons in it to keep folks busy for quite some time.  We know how you feel about certain organizations, I for one could care less what you think of them, and your comment has nothing to do with the problems of passing the torch we were so nicely discussing.  BTW, your anonymous rantings on my website were very amusing


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jul 16, 2004)

Rudy, 
I never said my organization had skeletons in it. We have disagreements with each other over interpretations of technique and maybe what Grandmaster really meant, but what organization doesn't? It is not the same thing as having questionable credentials, or claiming history and instruction you don't have. 
If I criticize an organization like Combat Hapkido, believe me I'm not the first or only person to have these opinions. No one said you have to agree with or like my opinions-lots of people do, some don't. And I present it as nothing more than my opinion. Disagree if you like.
I choose not to associate myself with people I feel misrepresent themselves. By associating with them, it makes me look shady as well. It doesn't matter how many magazines they appear in, or who they have their picture taken with. 
Anyway, I'm not going to get into another back and forth with you. Too many bad feelings, and I'm really not a negative person. I'm just pretty selective with who I associate with. My Instructor is, and so am I.


----------



## iron_ox (Jul 17, 2004)

Hello all,

This has been a good thread, here are a few thoughts on the topics.

I, for one, am glad that so many other groups identify themselves as something other that Hapkido.  Hapkido is the art of Doju nim Choi, Yong Sul - he really did not seem to care what is was called but settled for Hapkido (just Hapkido, not blah blah Hapkido, just Hapkido)  From all that I have researched, he taught an organized and quite standard curriculum - most who trained with him only ever got to his third dan level - Suh, Ji, etc.  With this amount of knowledge (and it must have been formidable) lots of other arts were created.  All these arts can trace back to Choi.  SO, if these organizations do not leave a way to pass the torch, that's really OK, because the root art of Hapkido is still alive and very well.  

Maybe Hapkido would seem in better shape if people would quit trying to Korea-fy (?) it so much and accept it for what it is - the teaching of Choi, Yong Sul, who trained in Japan until 1943 in Daito-ryu, came back to Korea and ended up teaching Suh, Bok Sup as a fluke.  Remember, Choi was raising pigs when he went to the Suh brewery for grain.  Choi never trained in any other martial arts according to him, never went to the mountains or found wandering monks - so he had NO Korean martial tradition (whatever that is) in his background - so studying Japanese warrior ethics in relation to Hapkido seems very consistant.  If you want to add Chinese weapons, or religious philisophy, fine, then don't call it Hapkido.  From all accounts, Choi taught a brutal, effective fighting art, no one I have spoken to has ever said he taught meditation, chinese weapons, or any religious philosophy.

I am always stunned at the groups that purport to train in Hapkido, but then say that the man that founded the art was a liar - hey, in my opinion, if you don't like the "creation story", find another art, or call your thing something else.  Since so many roads lead from Choi, (and start at Choi) he must have been doing something right.

I believe that all the offshoots are awesome for traditional Hapkido.  As some of us grow closer to the root and the source of the art, others spiral away.  Most of these offshoots initially appear to have vast commercial appeal, but I say just watch - when the "founder" of these groups dies, the whole thing dies with him.  I have seen it before, a Hapkido offshoot that was very popular for 20 years, lots of students, lots of instructors, then the founder died, so did the whole organization.  This is not to say that ALL offshoot organizations wil go this way, but a top heavy pyramid always collapses in the end.  I believe that in this country, many of the organization currently run by ex-pat Koreans will collapse because of this - there has been no effort to really create a power base below the leader, just lots of students, so no leader, no organization.

The other problem in this country seems to be that when a guy gets a black belt in a few styles, he gets a beer or two in him then says "I'm gonna create my own style" - these always die with the founder (sometimes before he is actually dead).

As I see it, at least three men have gotten 9th Dans from Choi, (one a 10th), so while they are still active, try to train with them and absorb what you can about real Hapkido.  They all have high ranking students, so I feel safe that the knowledge has been safely passed on.  Look in this country for organizations with verifiable claims to a link to Choi - not a day trip to Taegue, but a real link, then Hapkido will be very safe and passed on as it should - intact and real.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jul 17, 2004)

Kevin,

I agree with you. Even though I am a Tae Kwon Do practitioner, I agree with keeping an art close to its roots. There is a big difference between having a lineage that can be verifiably traced to the art's Founder, and claiming your own art because you have black belts in one or two styles that may or may not be legit and scrounged up the rest of your knowledge from whatever sources.
If you can say "I can legitimately claim rank from these Instructors going back to Choi, and have the papers and signatures to prove it", that's great. Unfortunately, many who make these claims cannot back them up. And having your picture taken with someone who happens to be in the same room with you and doesn't know you is not the same thing. I'm not referring to you by the way.
Our organization (Chung Do Kwan TKD) can legitimately claim direct lineage to Founder Won Kuk Lee and his teachings. We have photos of our Instructors with his student Woon Kyu Uhm who is current Chung Do Kwan President in Korea. So what style doesn't matter. The principle is the same.


----------



## Disco (Jul 17, 2004)

Kevin, nice bullseye.

"Choi taught a brutal, effective fighting art, no one I have spoken to has ever said he taught meditation, chinese weapons, or any religious philosophy".

"Maybe Hapkido would seem in better shape if people would quit trying to Korea-fy (?) it so much". 

Those two statements kind of says it all......... :supcool:


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jul 17, 2004)

Which begs the question: Why is there a need for "Combat Hapkido"? Isn't that a redundant term? All I can think of is someone sees dollar signs to be made from unsuspecting students.


----------



## Disco (Jul 17, 2004)

Why is there a need for "Combat Hapkido"?

Why for the same reason there was a need for the "Pet Rock".....   :uhyeah:


----------



## iron_ox (Jul 17, 2004)

Hello all,

I kind of felt the same way - saying Combat Hapkido is like saying "blue blue" - and I told Pelligrini as much in 1993.  But the problem is not with the offshoots - it is with the practitioners who claim to teach Hapkido and try to give it a Korean spin it doesn't have - in heritage or technique.

I believe that if Doju nim Choi's legacy were truly honored, and all the nonsense stopped, people would look to Hapkido as a more legitimate art and the offshoots would seem less appealing.  Hey, with an offshoot, the "founder" is still here to make his claim - many in Hapkido have created such fantastic stories that the reality is so banal as to seem unworthy of practice.

So, I would say to let go of the "up in the mountains" stuff and embrace Choi Yong Sul as one of the greatest martial minds of the last 100 years.  Teach what he taught as Hapkido, and let the rest go, or call it something else.

I am always surprised when someone says they are a Hapkido student then has to qualify that with a discussion about "KMA" - my point:  Shotokan guys never say they are "JMA" - they are Shotokan guys - we in Hapkido must embrace the same philosophy.  Hapkido = Choi; Choi = Daito-ryu and that is OK.  Leave the fairy stories about wandering monks and psychic grannies (in 1950's Korea) for kids books - Hapkido was Choi's lifeblood, and it shows in the number of people that learned some and tried to copy, change and improve upon it - yet the copies pale to the original...


Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jul 17, 2004)

I agree totally.

Even as a Tae Kwon Do practitioner, I try every day to practice the way I was taught. I practice and teach traditional Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. The forms are different, but the actions and mindset are the same. I firmly believe the farther away you get from the root, the weaker your style. The further you deviate from what the Founder taught, the weaker you will be in terms of technique, basics, form, philosophy etc.
With a tree, the strongest branches are the ones closest to the roots. The farthest branches are the weakest. They may look prettiest (lots of leaves), but they won't hold any weight.


----------



## Master Todd Miller (Jul 17, 2004)

As I see it, at least three men have gotten 9th Dans from Choi, (one a 10th)

Actually Choi, Yong Sool did not promote any to 10th dan.  In traditional Korean MA 9th dan is the highest.  There is no such thing as 10th dan!  Any that claim a 10th dan did not get it from Doju Nim Choi!

FWIW  artyon: 

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 17, 2004)

Dear Brian: 

"......So as far as Hapkido philosophy is concerned you see the basic touch stones as: the five rules, the nine virtues and the 3 principles of Hapkido. Can you guide to where these tenets can be researched? For the most part I have just seen them listed with a brief description of each. Or is that your point - interpret them as we see fit? ...." 

There are quite a few sources depending on which end of the pool you want to jump in at. 

As far as interpretation I see two mandates. The first mandate is that the interpretation need be consistent with ones' kwan. I specify kwan because an organization tends to be a bit more elastic, while a kwan is bound together in no small part by the view or belief system of the group as it is guided by the teacher. The second mandate is consistency as consistent behavior is the building blocks of sound Integrity. Certainly different individuals and kwans will have different spins on things (the Korean Yon Mu Kwan philosophy seems to be much different than that of GM Myungs' YMK. Go figure. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 17, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

My only difficulty in invoking Choi Yong Sul and what he taught is that we have no documentation about what it was that he taught. He has been dead a good number of years right now and each and every person that invokes his name says that THEY teach what Choi Yong Sul  taught. If thats true shouldn't we have a bunch of illiterate, brusk, asocial folks running around? From all reports Takeda (Chois' teacher?) was even MORE misanthropic. People are NOT teaching what Choi taught, or even the way that he taught and we may thank Gawd for it. Furthermore I think it does Korean martial traditions a disservice to begin the Hapkido arts with Choi as it cuts off a few centuries of tradition and development prior to his time. We probably know more about the traditions prior to Choi through the Korean literature than we actually have documented about what Choi taught. I mean, lets face it. If someone wants to learn DRAJJ what are you going to do. Learn from someone who learned from someone or go straight to one of the many DRAJJ schools and learn the art directly from the source? I study Korean arts some of which has been influenced by Japanese tradition. There is, however, another whole half of the Korean traditions which seem to be neglected.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD (Jul 17, 2004)

Dear Bruce & Kevin,

I agree with what Bruce just wrote.

Kevin, we dont know what Choi actually learned. Basically we practice the Ji Han Jae tradition of Hapkido! I'm speaking of any one of the following lines, KHF, KHA WHA, WHF, IHF, JR West, etc.

The others like Jung Ki HKD or Master Allen's group in Florida is a different tradition not incorporating any teachings of Ji Han Jae. 

But HKD is now a Korean Art especially from Ji he incorporated many Korean MA traditions both spritual and physical.

DRAJJ is strictly a Japanese tradition. 

I saw a DRAJJ book by Shiro Omiya and some othe tapes etc. DRAJJ looked more Aikido like to me. What I learned looks more like the Hapkido from Myungs books, He Young Kim or Mark Tadechi not DRAJJ.

Personally I not sure if Choi learned DRAJJ at all most likey some style of JJ. 

Ji Han Jae said to me directly that Choi only called what he taught Yawara and that is a generic term of Yu Sool or soft techniques. Choi never said to anyone he learned DRAJJ, Also direct link to DRAJJ was never able to be established by anyone! 

So IMO the DRAJJ link is very weak at best.


----------



## iron_ox (Jul 18, 2004)

Hello all,

OK, I don't want to open a huge can of beans here, but some need to do more research.  

First, Choi told several people that Takeda was his "father" and showed people a picture of Takeda when asked what he had learned.  Most notably, this dicsussion was conducted with GM Mike Wollmershauser.  In addition, Jang Im Mok, a student of Takeda, from Korea, verified that Choi was considered a "great" Daito-ryu instructor.  So again, if you study Hapkido, you study the root of Choi, and what he brought back from Japan, Daito-ryu.  In addition, the number of traditional techniques that are taught in Daito-ryu are the same as taught in Choi's Hapkido.  In addition, any book where Daito-ryu looks like aikido, I would look for another book, they are really quite different.

Next, sorry, but exactly what Choi taught is well documented.  Several original students of Choi found that the information that was transferred to them between beginner and third dan was identical.  I have no doubt that since that was the section that Ji studied that he also learned the same material.  Even in Illinois, a documented early Choi student has told me that the training was quite structured for all students.  In any case, why is it relevant how it was taught?  The fact is that the same material can be taught any way one chooses - so to say we would all act one way because that is how it was taught is nonsense.

You may follow the tradition of Ji, I do not. None of the instructors I have had ever had any Ji lineage.  But, if it works for you then fine.  As for traditions from books...well whatever, they are not Hapkido.  Hapkido did not exist in Korea prior to the arrival of Choi, and no book from 1525 is going to change that.  That's like saying that the heritage of Shotokan is not with Funikoshi because it is well documented that the cavemen of the region used to kill animals with rocks.

Sorry if the stories that you have been told don't jive with reality, but the history of Hapkido starts in 1948 at the Suh brewery.  If you want Korean martial tradition prior to that, it is not Hapkido, period. 

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 18, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

What you are saying is very true and you are certainly welcome to accept the oral traditions that have been passed to us from the previous generation. Unfortunately this was not what I was asking about. There have been a number of oral traditions that have been demonstrated to be blatant fabrications. The one about Choi acting as a second to Takedas' seppuku comes readily to mind. As I say, however, there are people who are going to hold on to these oral traditions because it pleases them to do so. Thats fine. Where the difference comes in is that if one is going to speak of facts then the facts need to have provenance and unfortunately the current family of oral traditions don't have that. Perhaps an example is in order. 

It is established through documentation that Takeda was profficent in sword work. SOME of Chois' students present sword work and some don't. GM Lim teaches his take on Eishin-Ryu as combined with Korean traditions. Now what do we make of this. 

a.) Well we can say that either from the Japanese side of influences or from the Korean side of influences swordwork is part of Hapkido. 

b.) You don't HAVE to go to Japan for swordwork since the Koreans already have their own traditions. 

c.) Its seems a bit disingenuous to teach Hapkido as a Korean art, but integrate a great deal of DRAJJ and Japanese sword into Hapkido after the fact and then state that one is teaching what Choi taught. I don't think that CHoi ever knew Eishin-ryu, and probably didn't know Korean sword either. He may have learned some Itto-ryu from Takedas students if he knew any at all. 

As far as whether of not Hapkido existed before Choi I think that has already been settled. Choi never called his art "Hapkido" or hapki-yu-sool, or hapki-yu-kwon-sul. He didn't call it su-bahk either. And without a documented curriculum organized by Choi and published by Choi unfortunately we have only the word of students following his death to retrofit material, or gradft on associated material and say they learned it from Choi. Down through the generation the names for Korean Mu-Do have changed regularly and repeatedly. NOW we are calling it Hapkido, and there are already people starting to invent even NEWER names. The theme that I keep coming back to is that there is a single line that to my mind does not make rational sense. 

1.) If Choi learned a Japanese art then all practitioners following Choi are beholding to the Japanese roots. Thats simple Neo-Confucianism, plain and simple. 

2.) If people want to practice a Japanese art, then I heartily encourage them to do so. 

3.) I train in a Korean MA and when I need questions answered I don't go on a fieldtrip to Japan. I am grateful for having the Choi-Ji-Myung traditions of the Yon Mu Kwan to give me a jumping-off point, but when I jump it is deeper into the Korean traditions and Korean past NOT into increasing amounts of Japanese influence. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## American HKD (Jul 18, 2004)

Dear Kevin,

This a just a discussion not reason to get upset over etc.

Ji Han Jae is a good source and can't confrim the DRAJJ connection only Yawara? 

Can your provide hard facts ( certs or names from the DRAJJ archieves etc. ) or just hear say? I too read the Wollmershauser interveiw but its story that could be 100% true or fabricated or a little of both. 

Stories that can be backed up with facts go alot farther then one or the other alone.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 18, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

Some secret part of me hopes things won't degenerate  into yet another contest regarding authenticity and legitimacy. My focus was more along the lines of how we are going to pass the traditions that we hand along to the next generation in such a manner as to have THEM pass those traditions along as respected institutions to the NEXT genration after that. To my eye it seems that the next generation seems so easily distracted from one fad-ish activity to another. I would hate to lose the KMA to ever increasing interest in Reality TV programs or Computer Games. I continue to represent the arts I practice as more than just kicking and punching and throwing but sometimes it seems like a losing battle when prospective students have unnatural expectancies for what the KMA are about. Ya know? FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## iron_ox (Jul 18, 2004)

Hello all,

Upset?  No, not me, I am very confident in the material I know.  

Simple, Choi spent 30 years in Japan, he came back to Korea and taught what he learned there - never trained in Korea.  He settled on Hapkido as the name for his art (all his certificates say Hapkido) - therefore we are "beholden" (?) to the Japanese.  I, personally, feel only beholden to Choi for his efforts - some of you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to Korea-fy this thing (rather desperately) instead of just taking it for what it is.

On passing the torch, my own dojang has a very set pecking order and a pretty strong line of succession - so I'm pretty secure there.

For now, I return to the dojang...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


----------



## American HKD (Jul 18, 2004)

Greeting 

As I said before I respect all traditions. 

Peace!!


----------



## Master Todd Miller (Jul 18, 2004)

There have been a number of oral traditions that have been demonstrated to be blatant fabrications.

What is the scource?  There is alot of hear say in Hapkido for sure and many cannot back claims with fact.

The name DRAJJ was not used until after Choi was back in Korea!  Yawara,Yu Sool, Hapki Yu Sool, Hapki Yu Kwon Sool or Hapkido for short!  Choi used Hapkido when refering to what he taught towards the end of his life.

Bottom line is there are different styles being taught here they are NOT the same.  I for one like to research different ways of practice to help me keep perspective.

Thoughts

Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
wwwmillersmudo.com


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 18, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> ...I try every day to practice the way I was taught. I practice and teach traditional Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. The forms are different, but the actions and mindset are the same. I firmly believe the farther away you get from the root, the weaker your style. The further you deviate from what the Founder taught, the weaker you will be in terms of technique, basics, form, philosophy etc.



Sorry for being away for a bit folks.  Seems I missed the fun  As I see it, change is inevitable over time, else we would still be throwing rocks at each other.  Even GM Choi himself did not teach what he learned.  By all accounts, he taught a different art than DRAJJ.  TKD has the same problems (if you call that a problem, I don't).  I dare say that every Master makes the techniques he learns fit his own personality; if not,  he is not doing the best for himself.  Example.  I am 6'7 (and shrinking, and my Instructors all were no where around the five foot something mark.  To do the techniques their way is ludicrous for me.  Hate to say it, but the way MI feels we should train just does not work for everyone folks.  On the other hand, I do agree with him on trying to keep the art as pure as we can, and this means we must keep even those techniques that do not work for us personally.


----------



## Disco (Jul 19, 2004)

Unless someone practices the same exact everything that was first adopted by the founder, then you have deviated from the so-called pure art. You can follow the concepts of what makes the discipline, but internally it will be or should be in a constant state of adaptation. As Rudy stated, he had no choice but to re-define techniques to fit him. Does that make what he practices any less then what the founder of his particular style started? It shouldn't, because the founder had to get his training from someone and as sure as the day turns into night, he changed/adapted things to suit him. And so it goes from master to student.

Now as Michigan TKD said, "I firmly believe the farther away you get from the root, the weaker your style". I think were talking about two seperate issues here, so could you define "away from the root". I'm not really sure what you mean. 

Rudy you said, "I do agree with him on trying to keep the art as pure as we can".Care to embellish on what you feel "pure" is, cause it looks like we may be in a catch 22 here.  :asian:


----------



## Black Belt FC (Jul 19, 2004)

Just dropped by to the see the progress of this debate Passing the torch. I dont think that debating about whats true root to far root will insure the future success of Hapkido, the future lies in instructors who can firmly teach solid techniques that can be utilizes by everyone.  I agreed with Kwanjang every Master makes the techniques he learns fit his own personality I certainly over the years consciously adhere to techniques that best suit my body sphere.



 I try my best to teach techniques that can be effectively and easily adaptive by all students whether young, old, tall or short. Ultimately the techniques must be effective and must work effortlessly. For the most part I limit the total amount of steps require to execute wristlocks and takedowns to three actions.  



Rather than debating what is pure and what is not we should focus our energy into finding ways to attract and keeping new students. Im not saying that its not important but if the art is to survive we must make a collective effort to polish our teaching presentation so that most students (the ones not crazy about being thrown) stay in class. When students leave Hapkido practice for wherever reason the art in whole suffers. No amount of debate will help keep a student interested if theyre mortified by the instruction; theres no future in an empty training hall pure root or not. 

Lugo


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 19, 2004)

Dear Lugo, Rudy, et al: 

As most of you know I tend to take a more traditional point of view on things. The danger with this as I see it is that I could become dogmatic (and maybe a little lazy) in advocating a particular take on things. To compensate for this I work to attend as many varied approaches to Hapkido material as I can. There is no doubt that there is much variance in the arts depending on when someone trained with Choi, what addittional material they mixed in and what their motives have been. Though I am very traditional with the Kwan I belong to I push my students to stay tolerant of other peoples take on things hoping that the overall effect will be a strengthening of the arts. So far the only real barrier I have run into is the defensiveness that seems to relate to any one person wanting to protect his "turf" against encroachment from an outsider trying to recruit in "his" area. I have not found any good way to address this, and maybe there really isn't one. I don't know. I know that for myself this is a regular issue with my college classes and I regularly have to make little announcements not to have continuing ed students recruiting for their "home" schools while attending my classes. 

As far as purity or authenticity of Hapkido material I think this begins to sound like those recovering smokers or alcoholics who have suddenly "found religion" (if you know what I mean). In some ways I think that later generations have been caught in a trick bag regarding Hapkido in that there have been so many traditions stemming from Choi yet such a wide variety of material yet all use Choi to authenticate what they do. As far as "korea-fying" an art. I am just not sure where people come down with that. If the art is Japanese then I say lets study the Japanese art. If the art is Korean than lets give Korean traditions their due. If we are going to pass on a tradition to the next generation aren't we making things just that much more difficult by waffling back-&-forth to make the Hapkido arts some nebulous "in-between-cultures" art? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 19, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> ... As Rudy stated, he had no choice but to re-define techniques to fit him. Does that make what he practices any less then what the founder of his particular style started? It shouldn't, because the founder had to get his training from someone and as sure as the day turns into night, he changed/adapted things to suit him. And so it goes from master to student.
> 
> Now as Michigan TKD said, "I firmly believe the farther away you get from the root, the weaker your style". I think were talking about two seperate issues here, so could you define "away from the root". I'm not really sure what you mean.
> 
> Rudy you said, "I do agree with him on trying to keep the art as pure as we can".Care to embellish on what you feel "pure" is, cause it looks like we may be in a catch 22 here.  :asian:



Disco et all:
As I mentioned, I HAD to make changes to make the techniques fit my body and lifestyle (just like you change the location of the mirror and seat in your car when someone else has driven it).  Still the same car, still know how to drive it just fine, but it is safe and much more efficient doing it MY way.  Have I changed the car in any way... I don't think so.  I merely made the vehicle (in this case Hap Ki Do) fit it for my best use.  I can't think of any founder who would object to that.

I guess what I mean by "pure" (if there is such a thing), I simply mean NOT to add a bunch of unrelated and ill fitting techniques to the art I am learning.


----------



## Martial Tucker (Jul 19, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Disco et all:
> As I mentioned, I HAD to make changes to make the techniques fit my body and lifestyle (just like you change the location of the mirror and seat in your car when someone else has driven it). Still the same car, still know how to drive it just fine, but it is safe and much more efficient doing it MY way. Have I changed the car in any way... I don't think so. I merely made the vehicle (in this case Hap Ki Do) fit it for my best use. I can't think of any founder who would object to that.
> 
> I guess what I mean by "pure" (if there is such a thing), I simply mean NOT to add a bunch of unrelated and ill fitting techniques to the art I am learning.


I've only been studying for about 8 years, so I may not really be qualified to discuss in-depth about the passing of an art from founder to descendants with varying interpretations/adaptations of techniques. But, I would logically tend to agree with GM Timmerman in his view on this. 

I would compare it to someone who writes a song that becomes a hit. Others will come along and perform their version/arrangement of the same song, but you still know what song it is when you hear it. You might like one artists version more than another's, or you may prefer the original version. Fine, that's your personal preference. But, as I said, it's still the same song.
I think I read that "Yesterday" is the most recorded song in history. Think of how many versions you've heard on the radio, in elevators, wherever. But you still know the song as soon as you hear it, and if you're like me, you immediately associate it with Paul McCartney.


----------



## Disco (Jul 19, 2004)

Rudy, Tucker and Lugo, were all on the same page here. Nice analogies by the way gentlemen.  artyon:


----------



## glad2bhere (Jul 19, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

Taking those analogies a step farther, though, raises some interesting questions. A lot of people HAVE recorded "Yesterday", but how does one make sure that the original spirit of that piece is preserved? Making a larger set, consider not just a single piece, but what of the larger family of "Rock&Roll"? As I write this I am remembering a program I watched last night in which Special Force (SEALS) individuals were dropping out of the Elite Forces because despite all of their constant training only a very small percentage ever get to actually use the training they continually polish. Somewhere lurking under the surface I seem to be hearing the same sort of thing in Hapkido. People agree that contant training including the pain, injury, dedication and repetition are all necessary. I wonder if folks tend to cut short their KMA careers in Hapkido because a look down the road shows that the average practitioner will never actually get to use all the polishing that they are accruing. Take away competition and demonstrations, take away a lifestyle with a high frequency of combat such as security work or law enforcement and will the typical man-on-the-street have the kind of Character that allows him to invest himself in an activty which can only serve to toughen his Spirit? Can people be found who will do just THIS much let alone pass the activity on to another generation? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## Disco (Jul 19, 2004)

Will the typical man-on-the-street have the kind of Character that allows him to invest himself in an activty which can only serve to toughen his Spirit? Can people be found who will do just THIS much let alone pass the activity on to another generation? Thoughts? 

Bruce, very insightful question. My answer to it and this is nothing more than my personal opinion, would be that the percentage of people willing to follow this path is very very low and getting even lower as the new generations come forward. I feel it stems from the overall attitude of society. An example if I may. Overheard an older gentleman in an auto parts store question the young store manager on service requirements. He was more than a little annoyed when he is being waited on, when the person waiting on him just left him standing in front of the counter with his money in hand, to jump thru a hoop to answer the phone and service the person on the phone. The manager said that was corp policy. I see a similar mode of conduct when going to fast food rest. They will bend over backwards to service the drive thru, while people can be lined up 4 or 5 deep at the counter. I don't honestly know what to call that mindset, but it seems to be prevalent in the 35 and under group. These may be the same people who would be the next in line to head some organizations. Combine whatever that thought process is with the overall ambivalence to hard work, sweat, discomfort, along with the prospects of being able to buy and pose rank, and we are left with a blueprint for ???????  Granted, there will always be that sub grouping of hardcore practicioners, but that group is also growing smaller. 

I think that we have only one more time left to pass on the art(s) and after that I feel it's all going downhill. The true Masters are in their late 60's, 70's and 80's. When they leave, I see only half of what's handed down maintaining. The next hand down will result in less than half of the half. Perhaps this is the natural course of action that must be taken for the arts in general to have a rebirth in the future. The arts in general are only children in a sense in this country. It's only been 60 years or so that we have embraced them and look what has happened in that short time span. Our culture here is too diverse, fast paced and technically orientated.

Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of trying to contain or maintain the arts in the older ideology, perhaps we should allow them to evolve in conjuntion with the current lifestyles.


----------



## Martial Tucker (Jul 19, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Mike:
> 
> Taking those analogies a step farther, though, raises some interesting questions. A lot of people HAVE recorded "Yesterday", but how does one make sure that the original spirit of that piece is preserved? Making a larger set, consider not just a single piece, but what of the larger family of "Rock&Roll"? As I write this I am remembering a program I watched last night in which Special Force (SEALS) individuals were dropping out of the Elite Forces because despite all of their constant training only a very small percentage ever get to actually use the training they continually polish. Somewhere lurking under the surface I seem to be hearing the same sort of thing in Hapkido. People agree that contant training including the pain, injury, dedication and repetition are all necessary. I wonder if folks tend to cut short their KMA careers in Hapkido because a look down the road shows that the average practitioner will never actually get to use all the polishing that they are accruing. Take away competition and demonstrations, take away a lifestyle with a high frequency of combat such as security work or law enforcement and will the typical man-on-the-street have the kind of Character that allows him to invest himself in an activty which can only serve to toughen his Spirit? Can people be found who will do just THIS much let alone pass the activity on to another generation? Thoughts?
> 
> ...


Thought provoking points, as usual Bruce.....I think your last question sums up the problem well. It all comes down to what do people REALLY want?
Getting back to the "Yesterday" analogy, you and I may agree that the McCartney version is the only version worthy to be in our personal music collections. But, if no one else seems to like that version anymore, it tends to fade from popular exposure. Then, if Eminem comes along and does a bastardized version that we both hate, and it sells millions of copies, what can we do about it? Unfortunately, the demand of the consumer has spoken.
That's similar to what I see going on in TKD today.

Getting to your other point about people losing interest in training if they think they'll never get to use their skills, I guess I would say good riddance to someone who gets upset that they never get to "trash some Bozo", to quote the old Cheech & Chong TKD parody. Call me idealistic and/or unrealistic, but those people came into the arts for the wrong reason, and I think the arts are better off without them. I've seen guys like that quit as soon as they reach 1st dan, as they assume they've learned all they need to know and move on.
So getting back to my point, while we may be evangelists for our traditions, 
we can't force people to come in to our tents if it doesnt fit their lifestyle. 
And unfortunately, the lifestyle choices I see the vast majority of people make today don't have a lot in common with tradition, or hard work.

As for the SEALS, I have more sympathy for their viewpoint. They sign up to fight as their first priority. BTW, if you are interested in a SEAL warriors viewpoint and training, I highly recommend a pair of books by Dick Couch, a Viet Nam era SEAL. The first is called "The Warrior Elite" and is about the BUD/S training in an observer's diary format. The second book/sequel is called "The Finishing School" which details all of the rigorous training they go through between surviving BUD/S and being deployed in an actual combat platoon. The two books together are both fascinating and inspiring to anyone with a warrior mentality.


----------



## kwanjang (Jul 19, 2004)

Jerry:
and a great song it is  Thanks for making a good comparison on how I feel, I sometimes don't express myself well enough for folks to understand what I mean.


----------

