# Tong Il Moo Do



## dancingalone (Jan 14, 2011)

Anyone ever heard of this martial art started by Dr. Joon Ho Seuk?  I would guess that he has some TKD in his background.  They have a rather expansive manifesto about the use of their particular expression of mudo towards character development.  http://tongilmoodo.com/significance_5.html


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## Manny (Jan 14, 2011)

I saw the web page and see some clips it has and to me is nothing more than HKD/TKD with maybe an espiritual overtone, like we say in my country  "es la misma gata pero revolcada" translation: it's the same old cat but with some dirth".

Manny


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Anyone ever heard of this martial art started by Dr. Joon Ho Seuk? I would guess that he has some TKD in his background. They have a rather expansive manifesto about the use of their particular expression of mudo towards character development. http://tongilmoodo.com/significance_5.html


 
I have never heard of them but my first HUGE red flag is the fact that he is associated with Dr. Sun Myung Moon leader of the Moonies cult.  So...yeah...gonna be biased here and just say they are full of crap.


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## dancingalone (Jan 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I have never heard of them but my first HUGE red flag is the fact that he is associated with Dr. Sun Myung Moon leader of the Moonies cult.  So...yeah...gonna be biased here and just say they are full of crap.



<shrugs>  Jhoon Rhee used to be involved with the Moonies.  :uhyeah:


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> I have never heard of them but my first HUGE red flag is the fact that he is associated with Dr. Sun Myung Moon leader of the Moonies cult.  So...yeah...gonna be biased here and just say they are full of crap.


While I know that the "Moonies" are a cult & that they have done much harm & wrong over the years, think their involvement in Koreagate etc, they have also done some good work with peaceful movements & outreach to the north. While this may be seen by some as self serving & I don't know, but good work is good work, especially for those on the receiving end of the good or goods.
Please note that while I have no idea of this venture, I would like to point out that the name includes Tong Il, which signifies the reunification of Korea. So again we see how Korean politics surfaces again.
The final Tul or pattern that Gen Choi devised was Tong-Il, as it is the dream of Koreans to have their country one again & free from outside rule. Gen Choi dedicated his life to this & used his TKD & the ITF to worl towards this goal.
(Nothing above should be seen as making a connection between this group & the ITF, etc)


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs> Jhoon Rhee used to be involved with the Moonies. :uhyeah:


Yes, but he isn't any longer is he. :angel:
There were a lot of people involved with them that have since come to their senses and moved on.  However, these guys have not so this makes it very suspect to more cult like overtones than not.  

Another example of a martial art under suspicion is Tae Yun Kim and her Jung Su Won.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs>  Jhoon Rhee used to be involved with the Moonies.  :uhyeah:


There was indeed some sort of connection. Mr Moon was also involved in promoting Korea & his group does so today.
They sponsored a goodwill tour by the Korean Angels, their creation, to all 16 nations that fought on the side of south Korea in the Korean Civil War, which stated June 25 1950 & ended July 27, 1953. This tour was to thank these 16 nations for their great sacrifice which saved south Koreans freedom, which enabled it to become the powerhouse it is today, hosting the 88 Olympics, G20 & becoming the 1st & possibly the only recipient nation of UN aid to a donor nation today, etc.
This Korean Angels group has previously performed in the USSR & Pyongyang, as well as other places all over the world, including in front of the UN.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Another example of a martial art under suspicion is Tae Yun Kim and her Jung Su Won.


Not sure exactly how she did it, but she is a real American dream come true story.


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Gen Choi dedicated his life to this & used his TKD & the ITF to worl towards this goal.
> (Nothing above should be seen as making a connection between this group & the ITF, etc)


 Maybe he should have made his goal to overthrow the harsh NK government like he wanted to overthrow his own government.  Ironic of how he tried to befriend one dictator and overthrow another.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Maybe he should have made his goal to overthrow the harsh NK government like he wanted to overthrow his own government.  Ironic of how he tried to befriend one dictator and overthrow another.


Yes it is. Some will say that you do what you can with the weapons you have & the hand you are dealt in life. Remember that he opened the doors & windows to the north 21 years before the south Korean president embarked on his historic sunshine policy, for which he (Mr Kim) won the nobel peace prize. Of course 1 of the 10 points of discussions on unification involved #8, exchange of TKD teams & unification, which of course was made possible by Gen Choi, who was himself nominated for the nobel peace prize.
There are of course 2 sides to each coin: Gen Choi was a traitor that went to the enemy & gave comfort & support to said enemy, allowing in some way for the one's most terrible regime to continue OR Gen Choi was a visionary who open the eyes to countless people in the north to what was going on in the outside world, that they were kept from seeing, until they traveled for his TKD & his TKD also allowed numerous outsiders to come into the north for TKD & at the same time, showed these sheltered people much of what they were missing & how they were being misled.

Everyone that works & studies this issue knows how delicate & complex it is, with no easy answers. It is only after the passage of time & a looking back by historians & others that we see how instrumental the Beatles & rock music, sports & cultural exchanges, the "Iron Lady" Thatcher, Ronald Reagon, the Pope, the Polish Solidarity movement led by Lech Walsea had on the dismantlement of the "Evil Empire" & the freedom of millions.
I am sure that history will judge Gen Choi in a favorable light & will note for eternity his valuable contributions.


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Not sure exactly how she did it, but she is a real American dream come true story.


You should do some digging into that..I would recommend Bullshido.com and look up Tae Yun Kim.


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## miguksaram (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes it is. Some will say that you do what you can with the weapons you have & the hand you are dealt in life. Remember that he opened the doors & windows to the north 21 years before the south Korean president embarked on his historic sunshine policy, for which he (Mr Kim) won the nobel peace prize. Of course 1 of the 10 points of discussions on unification involved #8, exchange of TKD teams & unification, which of course was made possible by Gen Choi, who was himself nominated for the nobel peace prize.


 
Let's see Kim pushed for better political unity and help jumpstart several business ventures as well as brief family reunification AND help open up partial tourism.  Choi...introduced established TKD and, most likely BS'd it's 2000 year old history to them for self servin purposes.  Sorry fail to see how his "achievement" should even begin to compare to Kim's.



> There are of course 2 sides to each coin: Gen Choi was a traitor that went to the enemy & gave comfort & support to said enemy, allowing in some way for the one's most terrible regime to continue OR Gen Choi was a visionary who open the eyes to countless people in the north to what was going on in the outside world, that they were kept from seeing, until they traveled for his TKD & his TKD also allowed numerous outsiders to come into the north for TKD & at the same time, showed these sheltered people much of what they were missing & how they were being misled.


How did he starting up TKD in NK help open up people to the outside world?  Sorry but they NK regime will show people what they want and that is is.  People were not enlightened to anything.  He brought them an art...lied about its history for "national pride" and then set off to be the big fish in the small pond.  NK people were not enlightened to anything or else they would be pi$$ed at what they have now.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> While I know that the "Moonies" are a cult


 

All religions are cults. I am always amused when people use the word to mean "religions I don't agree with". It's sort of like driving, where anyone who goes faster than you is crazy, and anyone who goes slower is an idiot. Or sex, where anything you would try is kinky, and anything you would not is perverted.
While I don't agree with the teachings of the "Moonies", I will say that they've done less evil than most religions. I'd say "scientology" is worse, in modern times. But Christianity holds the record for the most people killed in the name of religion.

Cult:
*noun *1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: _the physical fitness cult. _
3. the object of such devotion. 
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 
5. _Sociology _. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. 
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. 
7. the members of such a religion or sect. 
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.  
Thread Highjack complete... we now return to your regularly scheduled food fight...


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## dancingalone (Jan 14, 2011)

One of their forms.

[yt]l6Ts-PUjSmY[/yt]


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> One of their forms.


 
Pretty snazzy... for a minute there I thought the guy in the suit was a butler. Was expecting him to bring out the tea and crumpets...


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Let's see Kim pushed for better political unity and help jumpstart several business ventures as well as brief family reunification AND help open up partial tourism.  Choi...introduced established TKD and, most likely BS'd it's 2000 year old history to them for self servin purposes.  Sorry fail to see how his "achievement" should even begin to compare to Kim's.


It was not offered as a comparison & I don't think what i wrote can been seen as that. But if you got that impression, I am sorry, as it was not my intent. There is no comparison between these 2 political men, even if they shared similar political ideas & visions. Many people are nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, but few win one. Nominations are kept secret for I think 50 years. The reason we know is that the Canadian govt elected official that put forth the nomination stated so, which by the rules he was allowed to do. I am not sure of any other martial artist that had such an honor, do you? Does anyone else?
In fact Gen Choi did not tell them TKD was 2,000 years old, he told them that he was the founder. North Korea accepts that, as they do his TKD. But then again they tell their people that the Great Leader created TKD & would go to the TKD Palace he had built for the ITF to give them pointers. LOL


miguksaram said:


> How did he starting up TKD in NK help open up people to the outside world?  Sorry but they NK regime will show people what they want and that is is.  People were not enlightened to anything.  He brought them an art...lied about its history for "national pride" and then set off to be the big fish in the small pond.  NK people were not enlightened to anything or else they would be pi$$ed at what they have now.


Look I do not know what your politics are & frankly they are non of my business or my concern. But do you consider yourself a hawk or a dove, which you don't have to answer. But please think about this: War has always been a way to bring about regime change & free people. Another option was to let people see what they are missing, so they create change from within, via less violent methods.
I guess at times, one may be right or better than another.
What we do know is that north Korea remains the most closed & isolated country in the world. Experts that study these types of situations do believe that anytime you can promote understanding to people in the dark, you can start change. Start change, not make change. It is simply factually accurate to state that Gen Choi started change by his outreach to north Korea. History in the future, will look back & assess what impact the work that Gen Choi did with north Korea. I am sure that he eventually will get some rightful & deserved credit.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 14, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> All religions are cults.
> Cult:
> *noun *6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.


Of course I do not agree that all religions are cults & find that can be offensive to some religious people.
My use of the word cult is more in line with point #6 that you listed that is repeated above & to me it has a negative connotation. Of course all of this can be looked at as subjective, which I think is a point that you were trying to make, but to me the "outside of conventional society" is what sets it off for me.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 14, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Of course I do not agree that all religions are cults & find that can be offensive to some religious people.
> My use of the word cult is more in line with point #6 that you listed that is repeated above & to me it has a negative connotation. Of course all of this can be looked at as subjective, which I think is a point that you were trying to make, but to me the "outside of conventional society" is what sets it off for me.


 
That's ok. Your agreement or disagreement doesn't change the definition of the word. All religions are, by definition, cults.


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## miguksaram (Jan 17, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> One of their forms.
> 
> [yt]l6Ts-PUjSmY[/yt]


What the hell was that?  It looked like a cross between a traditional Korean dance, a bad taiji routine and just random moves thrown in for fun.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> All religions are cults. I am always amused when people use the word to mean "religions I don't agree with". It's sort of like driving, where anyone who goes faster than you is crazy, and anyone who goes slower is an idiot. Or sex, where anything you would try is kinky, and anything you would not is perverted.
> While I don't agree with the teachings of the "Moonies", I will say that they've done less evil than most religions. I'd say "scientology" is worse, in modern times. But Christianity holds the record for the most people killed in the name of religion.
> 
> Cult:
> ...


When people use the term cult, they are most often using definition number six, primarily due to the part that I bolded.  Cult is usually associated with the religious leaders taking an inordinant amount of control over one's lives (telling them who to marry, whether or not to get their kids vaccinated, etc.).  This control goes beyond simply saying, 'we don't do that' or 'you should do that' as seen in most religions.  Some amount of mental conditioning or outright brainwashing are usually involved.

Thus a muslim (someone not of my religion) who lives his or her life and goes to their mosque on the appointed holy days and tries to live their lives according the tenets of their religion is not in a 'cult' in the sense of definition 6, while a muslim who has been lured into an extremist grouip and monkeyed with until they are willing to strap explosives to themselves and self detonate in a crowded are is.

Not picking on Islam; I simply picked it because it is not specifically my religion, but I do consider it a 'world religion' and a definition 6 cult.  And certainly, cults of the #6 variety exist within the many flavors of Christianity.  David Koresh, the recent business with the polygamist group, and that bunch of loonies that protest soldiers' funerals would all be good examples.

Technically, the term cult is fairly generic and can be applied, as you say, to any religion.  Coloquially, however, it has a specific (and usually negative) connotation. 

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 17, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> One of their forms.
> 
> [yt]l6Ts-PUjSmY[/yt]


How peaceful.  I love the plush rug.  Looks much more comfy than the mats.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jan 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> What the hell was that?  It looked like a cross between a traditional Korean dance, a bad taiji routine and just random moves thrown in for fun.



I'd like to see the rest of their forms.  Unfortunately, they seem to be top secret stuff as they are published for members only.


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