# Honorable fighting or honorable combat



## Makalakumu (Jul 14, 2010)

How do you define honorable fighting or honorable combat (whichever you choose to call it)?  As martial artists, we believe to some extent that violence is appropriate.  In what forms do you considering it appropriate and/or honorable?  Do you ever consider it honorable?


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## dancingalone (Jul 14, 2010)

I'm uncomfortable attaching any notion of honor or rightness to fighting using my martial art.  It's too encumbering IMO to try to attach a calculus of right and wrong to my training.  For example, it's probably OK by most measures to defend yourself against a violent attacker.  What about intervention when the violence is directed against a perfect stranger?  That's perhaps a more cloudy situation.  And ultimately if one reaches a certain level of attainment, should one be morally bound to seek a position where one can use one's skills daily for the betterment of others?  That seems sketchy to me, but it's part and parcel of the philosophical questions you have to answer when you attach concepts like honor into the picture.

I would rather just train and teach the system itself and rely on other sources (parents, church, judicial system, etc) to teach when actual violence is justified.


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## ap Oweyn (Jul 14, 2010)

Honour is a social construct.  What wins someone accolades in one culture just leaves people shaking their heads in another.  

On one end of the spectrum, we have the sorts of things that are pretty universally recognized.  Defense of oneself, loved ones, even strangers.  But seemingly _necessary_ conflicts.

Then you get into more abstract "victims."  Your honour, "face," etc.  If someone makes fun of my mum, it might be hurtful in a psychic sense, but that's a lot more abstract than someone pulling a knife on her.

Honestly, beyond the threat of actual violence, I think that competition is basically our version of honourable combat.  And I say that as a very, very... very infrequent competitor myself.

There's a book by Barbara Holland called _Gentlemen's Blood_.  It's a historical survey of duelling in Western culture.  And I think it does a good job portraying the social stakes at play in duelling.  Including, to some degree, the absurdity of it.


Stuart


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 14, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> How do you define honorable fighting or honorable combat (whichever you choose to call it)? As martial artists, we believe to some extent that violence is appropriate. In what forms do you considering it appropriate and/or honorable? Do you ever consider it honorable?


 

Not really. If my only sense of "honor" were to come from how quickly or efficiently I can kill, what a sad person I would be.

I consider "Honorable combat" up there with "Military intelligence" or "Journalistic integrity"--apart from sparring or athletic competition( which I class outside of "combat") I consider it humanly degrading ( however necessary it may be) to have to get to wet work, because it suggests that all other avenues of reason have failed. But doing it is better than showing disrespect for life by refusing to defend your own/the innocent, since there's always those who won't take a reasoning.

There are times I consider it Justifiable, or even required, but honorable? 

A fight might have an honorable outcome (say, on the unlikely occasion you're havin'a REALLY good day today and stop 2 or 3 punks assaulting a helpless granny lady), but the fighting itself is just the tool to get the job done.

I don't "honor" my empty hand skills, my knives or my guns. I take care of them, practicee them , treat them with respect, and I take a certain amount of pride in their competence, but I only "honor" the things which they defend if that makes any sense.


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## Ken Morgan (Jul 14, 2010)

In the dojo I try to be considerate, helpful, friendly. Everything a good person should be.
If by some strange twist of fate, swords or jos suddenly became common place again, and I had to use my skills in a real fight. Honour would go out the window. I would do whatever I had to in order to win/survive. Kick someone in the nuts, sand in the face, hit them when theyre down, whatever was necessary to come out the victor. 
Id much rather win/live dishonourably, then die with honour.


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## MJS (Jul 14, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> How do you define honorable fighting or honorable combat (whichever you choose to call it)? As martial artists, we believe to some extent that violence is appropriate. In what forms do you considering it appropriate and/or honorable? Do you ever consider it honorable?


 
IMO, the only time I can see honor coming into play would be during friendly sparring.  Its not a life and death situation, nobody is really trying to hurt their partner, etc.  

Now, if my *** is on the line, then no, I'm certainly not going to fight with honor if someone is trying to knock my head off my shoulders.


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## seasoned (Jul 14, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> How do you define honorable fighting or honorable combat (whichever you choose to call it)? As martial artists, we believe to some extent that violence is appropriate. In what forms do you considering it appropriate and/or honorable? Do you ever consider it honorable?


In the dojo, respect is taught daily from day one. Bowing upon entering and leaving the training area, and before a sparing match. When practicing kata, a bow is always used at the beginning and end. There is a message of honor and respect attached to combat, unlike a sport. In a sport someone wins, and someone loses. Combat is a different story, for in true combat, someone lives, and someone dies. When is combat appropriate? All good and honorable people live by a code of conduct that involves good and bad, right and wrong. When I talk of combat I am not referring to the everyday accuracies of a parking space taken, or of a flip off. I talk of values compromised to the point of a total disregard for life and limb. In these cases I feel the Martial Arts teaches us that combat is to be respected, and honor of self and an aggressor needs to be adhered to, as we place our life on the line, to kill or be killed. Military, and lawenforcment function under this concept, and I feel that true Martial Arts does also.


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## Carol (Jul 14, 2010)

I agree with the aspects of honor when used in a competitive or practice sense.

I guess in terms of live combat, "_Never kill when  you can maim_, _never  maim when you can injure, never injure when you can harm, never harm  when you can walk away." _ is a quote that I've seen a few different places.

This largely fits my philosophy as well.   This also fits with doing what I need to do to not go up on violent crime charges.

I'd consider this to be my honor.  I think (at least, I'd like to think) that I'd follow this even if I didn't have to worry about what a District Attorney might say in the morning.  Fighting is violent, I'm not a violent person.  I compartmentalize it by seeing what I do as stopping the threat.  Once the threat is stopped, I need go no further.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jul 15, 2010)

For me personally, 'fighting' is only required if myself or my loved ones are in danger and fighting is the only way out. Fighting is not reqiured because someone called me a name or gave me a shove, to fight in these circumstances is dishonorable in my opinion.


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## Blade96 (Jul 15, 2010)

I agree with Carol and Ken.


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## Big Don (Jul 15, 2010)

MJS said:


> IMO, the only time I can see honor coming into play would be during friendly sparring.  Its not a life and death situation, nobody is really trying to hurt their partner, etc.
> 
> Now, if my *** is on the line, then no, I'm certainly not going to fight with honor if someone is trying to knock my head off my shoulders.


If it has to be me or you, trust me, it is going to be you, no matter what I have to resort to.


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## MJS (Jul 15, 2010)

Big Don said:


> If it has to be me or you, trust me, it is going to be you, no matter what I have to resort to.


 
My thoughts exactly!!!  Somehow, I just can't bring myself to honor someone, who isn't honoring me and trying to rob me, kill me, etc.


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## Balrog (Jul 15, 2010)

I would consider use of my skills in defense of myself or another against a physical attack to be honorable.  It's never honorable to start a fight; it is honorable to avoid or end one.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 15, 2010)

A lot of how you respond to such a question depends on what you perceive to be 'honour'.  It is very important not to confuse 'honour', as a virtue, with 'face'.

I have 'backed down' from an aggressive person in a public place on more than one occasion in my life.  To many observers I am sure that I lost 'face' in those circumstances.  But I do not care about that.  For me, I retained my 'honour' in that I did not resort to violence when such a response was not called for.

Could I have won any resultant fight from not seeking a diplomatic solution to a situation?  Pre-bike-accident, very probably.  But given the guilt I feel from having used my martial arts training on the one occasion I failed to avoid a dangerous circumstance, I am perfectly happy with my choices.


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## Cirdan (Jul 16, 2010)

Honor is a luxury. It is not a priority if I have to defend myself.
Honorable combat is a myth, violence is for the most part gruesome and bloody.
I`d rather think of violence as _neccecary_ in some situations rather than "appropriate". You make a choise what to do and live with the concequences.
Studying the arts of violence can in a yin/yang way make you a more gentle person.


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## Grenadier (Jul 16, 2010)

In the classroom, where my job is to bring people along, and sharpen their skills, sparring is done in a civil manner, where full effort is being expended, but impacts are controlled with distancing.   The amount of impact received depends on a number of variables (physical size of the individual, conditioning, experience, rank, etc).  

In cases where we're preparing people for tournament sparring, we'll allow decent contact to the body, and light contact to the face / head at the more advanced levels.  There really isn't anything to be gained by allowing people to smash their fists and feet into each other's faces at full force.  All you end up doing is discouraging people, and having them quit on you.  

Even the Kyokushin practitioners don't allow full contact punching to the face, which should be a pretty good indicator here.  

In situations where a criminal is seeking to inflict bodily harm, I whole-heartedly agree with Big Don, that codes of fighting honor go out the window.  The way I see it, criminals don't really have a sense of fighting honor, and will be the recipient of everything that I can throw at them, whether it be fists, feet, head butts, biting, blades, bullets, etc.


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 16, 2010)

It's not about who's right, but who's left.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 16, 2010)

Big Don said:


> If it has to be me or you, trust me, it is going to be you, no matter what I have to resort to.



Quoted for MF'ing truth


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 23, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> How do you define honorable fighting or honorable combat (whichever you choose to call it)? As martial artists, we believe to some extent that violence is appropriate. In what forms do you considering it appropriate and/or honorable? Do you ever consider it honorable?


 
Before answering the question, one needs to define 'honor'.........sometimes we make the mistake of thinking it's something like morality. The reality is that honor is about duty and obligation.

Therefore, our sense of honor is about our ability to fulfill our duties and obligations, whatever they are. 

At it's core, what is fundamentally honorable is what is considered the fundamental aspect of manhood........at it's fundamental, manhood is about the ability to protect ones land, women and children..........hence, those obligations make actions toward those ends 'honorable', and actions that are detrimental to those ends 'dishonorable'.

Add to that in a larger society many take on roles and societal protectors.......military and law enforcement, for example, have taken the responsibility and duty to protect the society and uphold a code of conduct.........actions that further those ends are 'honorable'.......those actions that are detrimental, such as cowardace, are 'dishonorable'. 

Is fighting every honorable? Certainly, if it is engaged in as a furtherance of duty or obligation.

Not all physical confrontations are about 'honor'.....self-defense, for example, wouldn't strictly be about honor.......defending another would.......but not being an issue of honor doesn't necessarily make them 'wrong'.........self-defense is absolutely moral and just, it's just not strictly an act of 'honor'.


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