# FMA-only crosstraining



## Dijos (Jan 1, 2004)

I got the opportunity to spend some time (sadly, far too little) with Felix Valencia while I was in LA.  He is amazing, and a nice guy to boot.  Our exchange got me thinking about Crosstraining-lots of people combine Judo and FMA, or Karate and BJJ or whatever.  Has anyone trained in several different styles of Escrima?  My art comes from Modern Arnis, and I've always heard about the "Flow".  This didn't make sense until I spent time with Felix (Lameco) and Marc Scott (Kalis Illustrisimo), whose arts move completely differently than mine.  Is it confusing?  is it good?  Thanks, Joe


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dijos _
> *I got the opportunity to spend some time (sadly, far too little) with Felix Valencia while I was in LA.  He is amazing, and a nice guy to boot.  Our exchange got me thinking about Crosstraining-lots of people combine Judo and FMA, or Karate and BJJ or whatever.  Has anyone trained in several different styles of Escrima?  My art comes from Modern Arnis, and I've always heard about the "Flow".  This didn't make sense until I spent time with Felix (Lameco) and Marc Scott (Kalis Illustrisimo), whose arts move completely differently than mine.  Is it confusing?  is it good?  Thanks, Joe *



Joe,

How long you train in Modern Arnis and with whom? Just curious.

Also, could you explain the completely different move strategy between these arts?

Thank You for your input.


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## Dijos (Jan 1, 2004)

I study with Bram Frank; the art is CSSD.  It is a mostly knife, pared down version of Modern Arnis, with some other touches thrown in-Wally Jay's SCJJ, for example.  The movement I was referring to was a much smaller emphasis on passing, and "softness", and instead, a quick, really close range (almost Dumog) approach.  I cannot say that I am an expert on these Gentlemen's styles, though, as I only saw them briefly.  --Joe


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 1, 2004)

Joe,

Thank you for the feed back. I have meet Bram and I like him. 

Less passing and more bang and then clash for grappling or trapping range.

Does this mean they use a smaller stick length? 

Thanks again


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## Cthulhu (Jan 1, 2004)

I don't think it's at all uncommon for FMA folks to crosstrain in other Filipino systems.  I can think of one person off the top of my head who is well-versed in FCS Kali, Sayoc Kali, and Pambuan Arnis.

Heck, nowadays, Modern Arnis players can be said to crosstrain if they train with more than one instructor.  I'm sure there are some significant differences between Datu Hartman's, Datu Inocalla's, Datu Worden's, and Senior Master Dan Anderson's Modern Arnis.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Jan 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Heck, nowadays, Modern Arnis players can be said to crosstrain if they train with more than one instructor.  I'm sure there are some significant differences between Datu Hartman's, Datu Inocalla's, Datu Worden's, and Senior Master Dan Anderson's Modern Arnis.*



There's definitely truth to that, though for the most part the similarities outweigh the differences. The differences between the groups that grew out of the IMAF in the States, and the group in the Phil., are more pronounced.

I think it's quite common for FMA people to cross-train with otehr FMA. In fact, the principles and techniques are similar enough that I think "cross-training" is often too strong a term.


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## DoxN4cer (Jan 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Dijos _
> *I got the opportunity to spend some time (sadly, far too little) with Felix Valencia while I was in LA.  He is amazing, and a nice guy to boot.  Our exchange got me thinking about Crosstraining-lots of people combine Judo and FMA, or Karate and BJJ or whatever.  Has anyone trained in several different styles of Escrima?  My art comes from Modern Arnis, and I've always heard about the "Flow".  This didn't make sense until I spent time with Felix (Lameco) and Marc Scott (Kalis Illustrisimo), whose arts move completely differently than mine.  Is it confusing?  is it good?  Thanks, Joe *



I think crosstraining is a good thing, Joe.  I started learning kenpo and Modern Arnis together  (many thanks to Dr. B and Shihan McPeek...mucho respecto) early on. When I lived in Germany I crosstrained in Lameco (thanks, Wolfgang) and PTK (thanks, Uli). On my trips to the PI, I had the opportunity to train some more in PTK... as well as with some old-timers who were scouts and guerillas in WWII.  One of my current training partners has had five years of training at the Inosanto Academy. There are a lot of similarities, and just as many differences.

Crosstraining in other FMA lets you see other variations of applications of some of the same concepts. I feel that it helps make connections in your mind. You see it and relate it back to what you have already been exposed to, and vise-versa.  While most FMA systems are similar, as are their core concepts; many are as different as night and day.  

However, it doesn't do any good if someone doesn't have a strong foundation in a particular and an understanding of it's core concepts. Without that understanding, the techniques that are learned through crosstraining amount to mere parlor tricks.     

Tim Kashino


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## dohap (Jan 2, 2004)

Yes, it's very good...
I understand what You feel - I also did some FMA before looking at Ilustrisimo. It was totally different. 
The only problem with cross-training is You will got to choose sth one day. Some systems are just not sticking to others. Especially hard to mix Ilustrisimo concepts (from Ray Floro) and others FMA.


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## arnisador (Jan 2, 2004)

Yes, some FMA systems are rather different, but overall I feel you're more likely to have luck mixing a style of arnis and a style of eskrima than, say, two arts from Japan.


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## thekuntawman (Jan 2, 2004)

beware of cross training to collect new techniques. i dont believe that a style or fighter is better just because he knows more ways to fight (long+short+medium range+grappling+boxing+etc). a fighter who is okay in many styles of fighting will probably lose to a guy who is really good at one.

since you are talking "fma", then keep in mind that the old masters cross trained by sparring with other fighters, and when they see something they wanted to be good at, they learned it. i will have to say the true fighters found a way to beat the guy who they lost to. its the only way you get better. you improve yourself, when you learn to find, make and take advantage of your opponents weakness, using what YOU are best at. not by learning what he did to beat you, because unless you drop what you are doing to specialize and master his art, he will always be better than you at his style.

i believe in the saying that you master the single stick by going to the single stick expert and specialize in his style. you master the single knife by going to the single knife expert and specialize in his style. but you master nothing when you go from one master to another. 

now if we are talking about streetfighting, i still stick to mastering your method of fighting. a streetfighter does not bother trying to learn a little of everything. he takes what he knows and either he is the best at it against everybody, or he is not. you are better than that, as a martial arts fighter, because you dont settle with your skill level where it is, you should always work harder to get better at what you do. not what this guy does, and what that guy does, and bla blah blah.

so cross train? i dont think so. cross "spar"? yes. you are learning how this and that guy fights so you can beat him, not to collect his techniques. but if you truly want to adopt his style into yours, you will have to learn the true meaning of his style (not collect a few of his tricks), then specialize in that style as much as your own.


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## Cruentus (Jan 4, 2004)

> i believe in the saying that you master the single stick by going to the single stick expert and specialize in his style. you master the single knife by going to the single knife expert and specialize in his style. but you master nothing when you go from one master to another.



I believe that there is a lot of wisdom in this. You don't want to be a "Jack of all trades." "Cross sparring" and Crosstraining just to get a feel for what someone else is doing is a good thing. But, you don't want to be one of those who does a "little of everything" but knows nothing. Stick to mastering your chosen style if it is a repudable one.

PAUL


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