# Dos Manos systems



## arnisandyz (Apr 15, 2004)

Does anybody train dos manos (sibat, topado, panabas, etc) as part of their system? when do you introduce two handed weapons? I am considering adding panabas largo mano techniques, but don't want to confuse the newer students. 

Thanks

Andy


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## lhommedieu (Apr 15, 2004)

Ananangkil (Tapado) is introduced to beginner level students in our system as a way to develop leg- and waist- generated power.  Students also learn how to use the structure of their bodies to generate an effective block and to "stand in" against a stronger, heavier attack.

We use it more for attribute-building than as a weapon per se.  At 1.5" diameter and 50" long, the ananangkil is somewhat heavy when used in a "baseball bat" manner.  I have always felt that ananangkil training builds body mechanics that translate very well to the stick.  

I monitor students very carefully when I teach the ananangkil because a misplaced hit has a lot of potential to cause some major damage.  

The flip side of that coin is that students quickly get the idea that you don't have to use your arms too much to generate power.  I like to unleash my wife (a mere slip of a girl) on unsuspecting "macho" types for their first ananangkil drill.  It's fun to watch their eyes get wide as they realize that they HAVE to put some effort into blocking the strikes.  

Best,

Steve


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## Guro Harold (Apr 15, 2004)

Hi Andy,

Yeah, we train Dos Manos as a part of Hock Hochhiem 's Archipelago Combatives and he also has a stand-alone course for his CQC curriculum.

Later,

Palusut


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## arnisandyz (Apr 15, 2004)

Steve, The footwork is much the same, I can see where it could be more of a help to newer students rather than overwhelming.  The few techniques that I would add are very simple as well.  Actually the reason I was going to have them do the 2 handed weapon was so they could work on body mechanics without having to worry as much about weapon manipulation.

Hey Harold,  you'll have to show me your dos manos at the next gathering!

Thanks

Andy


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 15, 2004)

I too teach Hock's dos manos material to my students and friends.

Mark


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## OULobo (Apr 16, 2004)

If you are looking to train the panabas as a weapon, you don't have to use two hands. I have a few antiques and they are weighted well enough to allow single hand use. I find that the only revisions that I have to make to a single hand system is to take into account the rear sweep of the blade, which changes the sweet spot of impact during a swing.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> If you are looking to train the panabas as a weapon, you don't have to use two hands. I have a few antiques and they are weighted well enough to allow single hand use. I find that the only revisions that I have to make to a single hand system is to take into account the rear sweep of the blade, which changes the sweet spot of impact during a swing.




I think I've seen a few of the panabas' that you talk about, and yes, they would work one handed.  Like any other blade in the PI there is an infinate variety of sizes and shapes. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think that type is more prevailant in the southern "moro" regions?  The one I am familar with is from Luzon and looks to be more of an agricultural tool. It has maybe a 24"-30" handle with a 18"-20" blade  that is less curvey (like a bolo blade on the end of a stick).  If you have seen Antonio Somera's book on Grandmaster Giron, he is holding a panabas that looks very similar to what I'm talkng about.

As a side note, my wife also tells me she's heard people call the Panabas, Tabas or Pantabas where she is from. Are these different weapons or do they all mean Ax (big chopper thing) in different dialects?

Thanks

Andy


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## OULobo (Apr 16, 2004)

I'm sure it is just a matter of individual weapon variation more than tribal / location variation. Are you looking to work in two-handed or polearm work? The weapon GM Giron was using in the book could almost falls under the polearm catagory. If you are looking for two-handed work, what about using the kampilan as a better/more traditionally common/known weapon and more common in the middle and northern tribes where it seems you are focusing more on. Just comments and suggestions.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I'm sure it is just a matter of individual weapon variation more than tribal / location variation. Are you looking to work in two-handed or polearm work? The weapon GM Giron was using in the book could almost falls under the polearm catagory. If you are looking for two-handed work, what about using the kampilan as a better/more traditionally common/known weapon and more common in the middle and northern tribes where it seems you are focusing more on. Just comments and suggestions.



These weapons you mention Kampilan, and also Barong, Kris, etc are weapons made for war for the warrior class during a certain period of time. Weapons that  i have been shown (bolo, panabas, knife, etc) are more agricultural tools adapted for fighting, self defense. The few things that I learned and remembered came from my uncles who live in the PI that learned it from thier gardener!  Thats as far back as I can trace it, not to some Igorot tribe, but to a gardener named "Boy".  These types of weapons I mentioned are definately more recognized AND common in modern day Philippines than a Kampilan!

I'm not being too specific if its polearm or 2 hand...basically a big stick with a big blade attached to it that you chop vegitation with.  you use it with 2 hands AND it has a pole. So yes.

Thanks

Andy


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## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2004)

I'd love to learn the kampilan by the way!  Finding a teacher would be hard though.


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## lhommedieu (Apr 17, 2005)

John Jacobo (www.swacom.com) has an excellent introductory DVD on Dos Manos.  Of particular interest is the way that he links "de cuerdas" to the use of a two-handed weapon.  One way of interpreting this technique is to use an initial feint to draw the opponent's weapon to one side, and then to use the weapon-to-weapon contact as a means of re-directing your weapon to an area that the opponent has exposed.

The DVD was especially interesting to me because San Miguel Eskrima uses a heavier weapon for Dos Manos training that is more designed for attributes development than for actual fighting.  But just as SME's ananangkil can be used to train body mechanics, so also could a lighter ananangkil be adapted to self-defense techniques that are currently geared to SME's espada y daga.  

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 17, 2005)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Does anybody train dos manos (sibat, topado, panabas, etc) as part of their system? when do you introduce two handed weapons? I am considering adding panabas largo mano techniques, but don't want to confuse the newer students.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Andy




Andy,

Tim K known here as DoxN4Cer, I believe has trained or does train in Dos Manos. You can send him a PM or E-mail him. I know he is in the Navy and stationed over seas so sometimes he does not check regularly.

Good Luck


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## haumana2000 (Apr 21, 2005)

Bangkaw, great training and fighting weapon, I love the qualities that it teaches due to the double handed grip.  It Almost forces different footwork and movement than the stick, along with the "pulling" type chops, and slashes, (to avoid overextension since it is a heavier tool).  Everything singles stick pretty much is the same, but a great dynamic to add once a student "thinks" he has the single handed stuff down. :uhyeah:


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## lhommedieu (Apr 21, 2005)

haumana2000 said:
			
		

> ...along with the "pulling" type chops, and slashes, (to avoid overextension since it is a heavier tool)...Everything singles stick pretty much is the same, but a great dynamic to add once a student "thinks" he has the single handed stuff down...



For an example of basic angles of attack:

http://northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/ananangkil_files/ananangkil.mpg

Bangkaw is a little different from the above as the hands are generally positioned further apart and about 1/3 down the length of the weapon (although alternate grips are possible).  Both weapons are great for attribute training insofar as you are almost forced to use the legs and hips for power due to the greater weight.  This translates very well to the stick later on.  In addition, both weapons teach you how to use both shoulders at the same time, i.e. moving the shoulders in tandem with the waist.

Best,

Steve


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## Dagatan (Apr 22, 2005)

Nice film clip, do you have more on your site?


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## Dagatan (Apr 22, 2005)

Is that Tom Bisio in the clip with you?


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## lhommedieu (Apr 22, 2005)

Dagatan said:
			
		

> Nice film clip, do you have more on your site?



There's an Espada y Daga sequence ("High Open-Close") linked to the "Espada y Daga" link on the Glossary page.  Wes Tasker and I are going to teach the first six of these (out of twelve) at our classes this spring, among other things.  My site is still a "baby site" re. clips - I'll put some of the material from those classes up this summer.

My partner (the thinner, better looking one) for both clips above is my friend Dave Tillett.  He's also an instructor under Tom Bisio.

Re. Bangkaw, I forgot to mention that Wes has an excellent Pekiti Tirsia spear DVD based on PT's seguidas.  I'm not sure if it's generally available or an "in house" production.  You can contact him via PTI's website, if you're interested.

Best,

Steve


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## Dagatan (Apr 23, 2005)

Is it part of the traditional Pekiti curiculum or is whats shown on his DVD his personal adaptation of the seguidas?


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## lhommedieu (Apr 24, 2005)

Dagatan said:
			
		

> Is it part of the traditional Pekiti curiculum or is whats shown on his DVD his personal adaptation of the seguidas?



I believe that the first two sets are based on PT's seguidas, and that the third set is an extrapolation based on the above - but I could be mistaken.  Your best bet is to contact Wes via PTI's website:

http://www.pekiti.com/contactlist.php#us

Best,

Steve


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