# WAM/Violent Tapi-Tapi? What gives?



## Guro Harold (Apr 23, 2012)

"Whoop *** Method"? "Violent Tapi-Tapi"?

What gives with these aggressive titles that are now being associated with IMAF, Inc Master Level instructors?

I personally would be concerned marketing these seminar titles especially in the event that some did Whoop someone's *** and it wasn't in self-defense.

One of the smartest slogans I have seen from another group is "Keep yourself from Harm" and they teach every blade you can think of.

Keep in mind, I have no idea as to what is being taught I and I know and have much respect to the teachers of these seminars but I don't agree with the title of the programs.

You're thoughts?


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 24, 2012)

What are you talking about?


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## Guro Harold (Apr 24, 2012)

I'll try to post the flyers.


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## Guro Harold (Apr 24, 2012)

See now what I'm talking about?


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 24, 2012)

So you have a problem with Brian Johns and Jim Ladis?


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## Guro Harold (Apr 24, 2012)

Of course not. The topic is concerning the titles of the programs.

And BTW, its not Brian's program, it appears to be Chuck's.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 25, 2012)

Who cares? If that's how they want to market themselves that's their call. If I where you, I would worry about what you where doing and ignore the rest.


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## BrianZ (Apr 25, 2012)

Gentlemen, respectfully, this stops right here, right now. Please review the flyer carefully and let me know where you see IMAF anywhere on the flyer because it simply does not exist. Jim is doing this seminar under his own banner of Modern Arnis Chicago, not IMAF. This event and any advertising associated with it is independent of IMAF, LLC.

Harold, With regard to this flyer, I am sure it was an honest oversight in your associating Jim with IMAF as he is of course one of the Masters of Tapi Tapi, however, this is not an IMAF sanctioned event. FYI- The Masters of Tapi Tapi are authorized to teach under IMAF, and they can teach independently under their own banner. Keep in mind that IMAF events must be sanctioned by the Masters collectively. 

Under IMAF, the Masters' values, direction, passion, and efforts remain unchanged in that we continue to uphold the teachings and highest standards of our Teacher.

Regards,
Master Brian


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## Guro Harold (Apr 25, 2012)

Hi Everyone,

This is a Modern Arnis Forum with a history of discussing things relating to the Modern Arnis community. It's ok to discuss things for clarification because in this case, Modern Arnis as described by the Professor was considered a Self-Defense Martial Art, and he didn't want to train "Killers". That is why this struck me. I have every right to discuss this in a public forum since these are public event no matter where in the world I live or hang out at (Ain't it cool to be an American?). Also, I have much respect for the individuals who posted these events and though its been a while since I have seen them, the titles seem to differ from what I remember.

Finally, there was no judgement here, I did not attack the individuals involved and got an answer and that how we do things on this forum.

Brian, I do thank you for your response, and I do agree if there are any events that are unrelated to IMAF, Inc (in this case), then there should be a disclaimer, but as you can clearly see the brochure has Modern Arnis Chicago. Just bear in mind this thread was not a slam and its ok for me to state a concern and my own personal opinion which will not be stopped by anyone just as long as I adhere to the rules on this forum.

On that note, any post unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself and no other persons or organization.

Thanks everyone.


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## BrianZ (Apr 25, 2012)

Harold,
As you can see by my elite "white belt" status , I almost never post on this forum.
You are correct in that you can post and discuss at will, providing it falls within the parameters
of the forum. I seldom post, but I am kept abreast of many topics by my students.
In your first sentence, you indicated that these aggressive titles are now being associated with IMAF.
That really is an unfounded assumption, and the IMAF cannot possibly offer a disclaimer on a flyer that is not sanctioned by IMAF. That is beyond our control.
I did not take your post as a slam, as I know that is not your nature. I would like to humbly suggest that
you contact IMAF directly with any questions you may have in the future.
Sincerely,
BZ


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## Guro Harold (Apr 25, 2012)

Thanks Brian! 

We all care about the legacy of GM Presas and we have utmost belief in each other. That's what matters.

I will contact you directly if I have any other questions in the future.

As far as disclaimers, usually the sponsor of the events should provide those to avoid confusion.




BrianZ said:


> Harold,
> As you can see by my elite "white belt" status , I almost never post on this forum.
> You are correct in that you can post and discuss at will, providing it falls within the parameters
> of the forum. I seldom post, but I am kept abreast of many topics by my students.
> ...


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## Happy Gypsy (Apr 26, 2012)

BrianZ said:


> Harold,
> As you can see by my elite "white belt" status , I almost never post on this forum.
> You are correct in that you can post and discuss at will, providing it falls within the parameters
> of the forum. I seldom post, but I am kept abreast of many topics by my students.
> ...



Hell BrianZ,

As you can see, I am alo a memebr of the elite "white belt" grouping on this forum.  So as one "white belt" to another I have to say that I disagree with you on one comment that you made:

"In your first sentence, you indicated that these aggressive titles are now being associated with IMAF.
That really is an unfounded assumption, and the IMAF cannot possibly offer a disclaimer on a flyer that 
is not sanctioned by IMAF. That is beyond our control."

There is very reason to question if the flyer in question and the the statements or titles printed therein are associated with the Modern Arnis Group bettter known as the MOTTS.  Mr. Ladis is a known member of that group.  The flyer also contains the term "Modern Arnis Chicago"!  Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude - rightly or wrongly - based on a known MOTT associate being involved with that seminar program, that there is some sort of connection to the MOTTS.  In addition the seminar topic is "Tapi-Tapi".  Of course there are some things that the general public, not associated with the MOTTS does not and can not be expected to know.  You mentioned one of those things in your reply to Guro Harold.

If the seminar sponsor is acting outside of his MOTT affiliation, _he should have posted_ such a disclaimer on his flyer.  While the MOTTS organization can not control or force a disclaimer in every questionable case, certinly the organization can sanction a member for acting in a manner that does not present the other members in a GOOD light.

I agree with Guro Harold that the flyer should have been questioned.

Respectfully,

Gitano


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## MJS (Apr 26, 2012)

Yet one would assume that if it were an IMAF sanctioned event, it'd be posted here.  However, it is not listed there, which would read to me, that it is an event, seperate from the IMAF.  

What I do find interesting is the thought that the IMAF is taking a violent path.  IMO, no matter how you slice or dice it (no pun intended) the art is brutal.  Perhaps a bit toned down for the simple fact that we're in a different time, where stuff of this nature is frowned upon.  For the same reason that alot of the knife work that we see is more defensive, rather than offensive, yet any student who's been at it for a while, can easily 'see' the more offensive side to it.

Furthermore, if someone is that concerned with the "Whoop ***" title, one need not look too far (youtube) at some other FMAs and see quite an aggressive and potentially deadly assortment of knife work, stuff that were someone to actually do, would probably land them in jail, despite their claims of SD.


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## Brian Johns (Apr 27, 2012)

Interesting thread. Let's break it down starting with Master Chuck's "violent tapi tapi." This was in the context of a poll on his Facebook page and not a marketing slogan per se. If you look elsewhere on his Facebook Page, do you see anything along those lines? I think that it's a mite bit unfair to take one thing and extrapolate it to something bigger.

Regarding Master Jim Ladis' WAM seminar/camp, if you know Jim, you would know that he has a sense of humor and he is anything but violent. 

As MJS points out, there are many examples on YouTube with respect to other FMAs. Being that today's generation is more visual than textual, I think that YouTube has more of a draw than text based ads or polls.

Lastly, Harold, I find it ironic that you're concerned with these titles when there's a certain "King of Kerambit" who posted videos of himself doing 12 cuts in 1.5 seconds. :ultracool  Are those types of YouTube videos not a form of advertising/marketing?

Regards,
Brian


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## Guro Harold (Apr 27, 2012)

Hi BrianJ and MJS, this is a Modern Arnis thread and this was a Modern Arnis topic with the concentration based on hearing the Professor stating that Modern Arnis was a self-defense art, which seemed out of character with those new titles. No one ever said that Modern Arnis or any FMA was without violence but that wasn't the focus of teaching from GM Presas, who sat us down at least several times in the small time that I knew him and attended his seminars took the time to convey that to us.

The question I asked was based on that impression. I didn't say that the instructors were wrong but wanted to gain understanding and clarification.

As far for other arts, if it is blade oriented and communicates that it is blade or combatives oriented then that is the nature of the program.

I stated my personal opinion concerning how things are labeled. There have been other topics like this in the knife forums in that what would you want your carry to be named if you were stopped, HandyTool 3000, or Slit'EmGood 3000?

I have heard of cases where the self-defense instruction was the key to whether or not the instructor contributed to the liability of the student who was involved in an excessive force case. As a result I tend to be cautious as to how I personally label and market the arts that I teach. Even down to the logo of my organization.

Finally, I am not in the business of telling anyone what to do but as for myself, at this present time, I would be cautious of putting anything out there like these titles for a self-defense art.

- When I teach FCS or SFC Archipelago Combatives it is indeed all weapons at hand from a defensive and combatives perspective. 
- When I teach Modern Arnis, its my take on Modern Arnis with limited blade work (modified).
- When I teach aspects of Sil-Lum Kung fu, it is both defensive and offensive minded with all weapons at hand.


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## Guro Harold (Apr 27, 2012)

As far as the "King of Kerambit" and him doing 12 cuts in 1.5 secs?

The Professor introduced Tuhon Ray as one of his proteges and helped produce the Principles of the Blade video.
He has always been known for his Blade work along with his other formable skills, nor has he ever been advertised as far as I have know as primarily as teaching a self-defense oriented art.

I think he sizes himself up very well in this paraphrase - "Don't get me wrong, I hate violence, I'm just very Good at it!"


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## Happy Gypsy (Apr 28, 2012)

Brian Johns said:


> Interesting thread. Let's break it down starting with Master Chuck's "violent tapi tapi." This was in the context of a poll on his Facebook page and not a marketing slogan per se. If you look elsewhere on his Facebook Page, do you see anything along those lines? I think that it's a mite bit unfair to take one thing and extrapolate it to something bigger.
> 
> Regarding Master Jim Ladis' WAM seminar/camp, if you know Jim, you would know that he has a sense of humor and he is anything but violent.
> 
> ...



Hello Guro Johns,

With all due respect, I have to disagree with your position regarding Guro/MOTT Jim Ladis.  I do not know him nor am I aware of his reputation for having a sense of humor.  All I have to judge him by is his flyer.  I suspect that more people than not are unaware of exactly who Guro Ladis is or what sort of personality he has. Therefore, his flyer is his image for most people viewing his flyer.  You obviously know him and can read the copy as well as read between the lines, thereby sensing the implied tongue in cheek humor disguised within the copy.  I can defer to your knowledge of the man, however, that does not mean that I am now totally convinced that Guro Harold was over-reacting to the flyer.  

As for your remark about  "...I find it ironic that you're concerned with these titles when there's a certain "King of Kerambit" who posted videos of himself doing 12 cuts in 1.5 seconds."  That was both unnecessary and totally off topic.  The kerambit is not a part of Modern Arnis weaponry as best as I can tell.  Busting Guro Harold's chops by going off-topic doesn't change the strength and clarity of his questions and concerns.  Discussing Guro Ladis' sense of humor is a much better approach and sheds some light on the flyer and the "whoop ***" lead-in contained therein.

Respectfully yours,

Gitano


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## Happy Gypsy (Apr 28, 2012)

Guro Harold said:


> As far as the "King of Kerambit" and him doing 12 cuts in 1.5 secs?
> 
> The Professor introduced Tuhon Ray as one of his proteges and helped produce the Principles of the Blade video.
> He has always been known for his Blade work along with his other formable skills, nor has he ever been advertised as far as I have know as primarily as teaching a self-defense oriented art.
> ...



Hello Guro Harold,

Thanks for your post quoted above.  You clarified a couple of things for me.

Regards,

Gitano


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## MJS (Apr 28, 2012)

`





Happy Gypsy said:


> Hello Guro Johns,
> 
> With all due respect, I have to disagree with your position regarding Guro/MOTT Jim Ladis. I do not know him nor am I aware of his reputation for having a sense of humor. All I have to judge him by is his flyer. I suspect that more people than not are unaware of exactly who Guro Ladis is or what sort of personality he has. Therefore, his flyer is his image for most people viewing his flyer. You obviously know him and can read the copy as well as read between the lines, thereby sensing the implied tongue in cheek humor disguised within the copy. I can defer to your knowledge of the man, however, that does not mean that I am now totally convinced that Guro Harold was over-reacting to the flyer.



I'm not Brian Johns, but I'll comment anyways.   Like I said, this is not an IMAF Inc event.  If it were, it'd be listed on the site that I linked.  To be honest, I have no idea what sparked him to call it "Whoop ***", or what he's going to be teaching.  



> As for your remark about "...I find it ironic that you're concerned with these titles when there's a certain "King of Kerambit" who posted videos of himself doing 12 cuts in 1.5 seconds." That was both unnecessary and totally off topic. The kerambit is not a part of Modern Arnis weaponry as best as I can tell. Busting Guro Harold's chops by going off-topic doesn't change the strength and clarity of his questions and concerns. Discussing Guro Ladis' sense of humor is a much better approach and sheds some light on the flyer and the "whoop ***" lead-in contained therein.
> 
> Respectfully yours,
> 
> Gitano



I didn't see this as busting chops, I saw it as stating fact!  Off topic?  Perhaps a bit, however, anyone who is remotely familiar with the Prof or any old stories, would attest to the fact that the art in fact was very violent and has since been toned down.  But, since the topic of other arts is deemed off topic by some, I'll go ahead and start a new thread in the General FMA section, where we can discuss the violence thats seen in other FMAs.


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## Guro Harold (Apr 28, 2012)

MJS, I think there is an aspect that you are missing.

The late GM Remy A. Presas stated and conveyed that Modern Arnis was a Self-Defense art. He did this on film and in his seminars. IMAF, Inc is an organization that reflects the desires and path of GM Presas.

Again the challenge of teaching Modern Arnis is that one would need to be mindful of the intentions of GM Presas and how they represent his ideas.

This is the crux of this discussion in this thread.

Now if someone has documented references that this premise is incorrect, they are welcome to document this in this thread.

Honestly no one, including yourself have not.


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## BrianZ (Apr 29, 2012)

Gitano,

If the flyer/event in question was sanctioned by the IMAF, it would have said IMAF on the flyer, and it would more than likely have been placed on the IMAF website. Yes, Master Jim is a Master of Tapi Tapi, but to "conclude" that his seminar is automatically an IMAF event is not reasonable because it is based on an assumption, which, in this case, is quite inaccurate. It was twisted even further when the IMAF was "associated" with these titles or violent terms. This is a very subjective approach to this matter and that is why I intervened before it went any further.

As far as your comment that Jim should have indicated on the flyer that this is not an IMAF event, why hasn't anyone posting on this thread called him and told him what they think he should or should not be doing with his flyer?  Since when is this forum in the business of telling folks what they coulda/woulda/shoulda done?

Had someone reached out to Jim directly and asked him about the flyer/event, the individual would have learned that it is separate from IMAF and they may have come to realize after a brief conversation that Jim is quite professional, articulate and intelligent and that the "WAM" connotation was anything but aggressive or violent. (I am not crazy about this advertisement, but this is none of my business). In addition, had someone contacted IMAF and inquired of this flyer/event, they would have been told that it is not an IMAF event and told to contact Jim directly. I can state this last sentence as fact because when some reaches out to the IMAF, their e-mail or call comes directly to me, and I have no issue in returning inquiries and I do so quite promptly and have done so for nearly a decade as the IMAF spokesperson.

So, instead of going right to source, (in this case Jim or the IMAF), a thread has been started based on assumptions, opinions, and anything/everything other than facts and/or first hand information. There's a word for this kind of thing and it is very ugly . . . "gossip."

This thread is a very good reminder for me as an individual why I usually abstain from this forum.

Brian Zawilinski
Master of Tapi Tapi
IMAF, LLC


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## Guro Harold (Apr 29, 2012)

Ok, here are some reminders and clarifications for everyone to note:

- My original question was "What gives with these aggressive titles that are now being associated with IMAF, Inc Master Level instructors?"
 A. This was an observation based on a Public seminar invite that was sent to my email inbox.
 B. I did not use the word "Violent" in my observation, that was actually one of the polling questions from the Instructor.
 C. The words "Aggressive" and "Violent" are not synonymous, therefore to make a jump in logic of this kind is disingenuous.  
 D. Since both of these events occurred around the same time, and they were public in nature, its ok to bring them up publicly, especially in a Modern Arnis Forum.
 E. As participants, its ok to provide feedback and opinion, especially when it comes to discussing Modern Arnis in a constructive, friendly manner. We don't have to agree with each other but as peers we all can provide feedback and discussion.
 F. There is really no absolute answer or advisement for this discussion except for what was mentioned, "Yes", "No", "Mind your damn business", and "Maybe". 
 G. I submit to you at least 6 pages of Modern Arnis Topic started by my me over my time here at MT. It is my believe that this topic is not outside any of the other considerable content contributed here by myself. It also shows that I have invested and am interested in the discussion of Modern Arnis in particularly on this site. My main direction in doing so is to have an avenue for friendly, "Peer reviewed" content.
 H. This thread has opened up communication doors which I am happy about. The challenge though is not for any of us to make jumps, assumptions, and to communicate professional regarding differences in opinions and to understand that Instructors are held to a higher standard, like or not, especially Masters.

These next statements are to BrianZ...

Brian, as I have stated before, I do thank you for your input and feedback on this topic. It is indeed refreshing for you to be involved and there was a time from what I recall may have been no senior IMAF presence here on MT. Please know that you are quite welcome here and we value your involvement.

Also Brian, in our limited time getting to know each other, you and those have met me know that that I don't play games when things affect me or my students directly. I go to the source to who I need to see and engage them with the full belief that as long as we are positive and don't take things too personally, the best usually works out. But the challenge there, is that there must be true "Give and Take" and "Win-Win". This thread was not started because there was beef with anyone or hidden agenda. Its because Modern Arnis and how it is perceived is important enough to me to ask.

Thank you all,

Harold


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## MJS (Apr 29, 2012)

Guro Harold said:


> MJS, I think there is an aspect that you are missing.
> 
> The late GM Remy A. Presas stated and conveyed that Modern Arnis was a Self-Defense art. He did this on film and in his seminars. IMAF, Inc is an organization that reflects the desires and path of GM Presas.
> 
> ...



So, that said, anyone who is remotely serious about self defense, should fully know and understand that violence is a part of it.  Not sure how I'm missing that.  IIRC, I wasn't the one who thought MA was overly violent...you did.


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## Guro Harold (Apr 29, 2012)

MJS said:


> So, that said, anyone who is remotely serious about self defense, should fully know and understand that violence is a part of it.  Not sure how I'm missing that.  IIRC, I wasn't the one who thought MA was overly violent...you did.


MJS, this thread about how Modern Arnis was marketed by the Professor and how he conveyed he wanted it to be a self-defense oriented art.

If you cannot add to the discussion of what GM Presas' intentions in terms of how he wanted Modern Arnis to be conveyed and represented then you are off topic from this particular discussion.

Therefore you are welcome to create another MA thread to debate if MA is violent. Thank you.


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## MJS (Apr 29, 2012)

Guro Harold said:


> MJS, this thread about how Modern Arnis was marketed by the Professor and how he conveyed he wanted it to be a self-defense oriented art.
> 
> If you cannot add to the discussion of what GM Presas' intentions in terms of how he wanted Modern Arnis to be conveyed and represented then you are off topic from this particular discussion.



Really?  Gee, thats funny, because it seems to me, and a few others, that this thread is more about the seminar that Jim Ladis is giving, which, once again, is not an IMAF LLC, sanctioned event.  I saw no mention of Remy Presas in your OP.  Frankly Harold, I'm not sure that there is anything more to add to this thread.  It was suggested that: 1) its not an IMAF LLC event, 2) perhaps someone should contact Jim himself, if they have issue with what he's doing.  Additionally, I dont believe I've drifted off topic at all, but if I have, go ahead and report my posts.  As a former mod yourself, I'm sure you know how to do that.  You go on to say this to Brian Z:

"Also Brian, in our limited time getting to know each other, you and those have met me know that that I don't play games when things affect me or my students directly. I go to the source to who I need to see and engage them with the full belief that as long as we are positive and don't take things too personally, the best usually works out. But the challenge there, is that there must be true "Give and Take" and "Win-Win". This thread was not started because there was beef with anyone or hidden agenda. Its because Modern Arnis and how it is perceived is important enough to me to ask."

So Harold, since you said that you go to the source, have you contacted Jim Ladis about his seminar?  


As for how GM Presas wanted Modern Arnis to be represented....I'm sure that many are doing just as he wanted, just as i'm sure there're those that are not.  AFAIK, the only thing that he wanted conveyed differently, was the way the blade was taught.  Aside from having no contact at all, I'm not really sure how one would tone down anything done with the stick.  



> Therefore you are welcome to create another MA thread to debate if MA is violent. Thank you.



Already done, right here.  Feel free to chime in. 
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?102884-Violence-In-The-FMAs&p=1486658#post1486658


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## Guro Harold (Apr 29, 2012)

Hmmm, facinating.


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## MJS (Apr 29, 2012)

Guro Harold said:


> MJS, I think there is an aspect that you are missing.
> 
> The late GM Remy A. Presas stated and conveyed that Modern Arnis was a Self-Defense art. He did this on film and in his seminars. IMAF, Inc is an organization that reflects the desires and path of GM Presas.
> 
> ...



Well, please clarify for me, what I am missing. I haven't disputed the fact that Arnis is an effective tool for SD. Since you're claiming to be an expert on his intentions, please, share with the rest of the class.  BTW, you didn't answer my question...did you take the advice of Brian Z and myself and contact Jim?  He's a great guy, very approachable and I'm sure he'd be more than happy to answer any concerns you have about his WAM seminar.



Guro Harold said:


> Hmmm, facinating.



Hmm...I know, isn't it.


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## Guro Harold (Apr 29, 2012)

MJS, Sir:

- Who said that I was an expert at knowing the Professor's intentions? Sir, that's very offensive, disrespectful and quite patronizing. Its ok for me to state what my impressions of what I thought what the Professor communicated to us in his videos and especially the public events that I attended. I was never as close to him as a GM Tim, Masters Rich, BrianZ or BrianJ because they knew him longer but it doesn't mean I wasn't touched by the things he relayed in the brief time I knew him.

- Sir, these were public events and posting. Its ok for me to post questions regarding them to the general MA community. No one personally offended me or my students. While the advise that Master BrianZ is great advice and I do this anyway for personal engagements and interest, its ok to ping a community regarding their thoughts on different matters. I have done this for 12 years on this forum.

- Sir, I was an IMAF member(non current). I have met Master Ladis, I know Master Chuck. The last time I saw the Professor alive (Lexington, Ky), BrianJ was there as well and the Professor complimented both of us on our progress when we were working together. I have met GM Tim and have interated with BrianZ. 

I think that you didn't get that I don't ask questions because I think I'm right but that I ask to learn. That no matter my rank, I am still open to learn. That as an Instructor, its ok for me to seek clarification from those whom I respect. That the Professor's legacy is important to me and that the these questions were asked not to down anyone but to gain clarity on a perceived inconsistency.

- Lastly Sir, I think that you failed to recall is that I am still a MT mentor. That creating thoughtful threads is still an important aspect of my contribution to this site. My MT stat have always exclusively been in the MT MA forum and then FMA. I tend not to air out private beefs. Though because of life and work it's hard for me to contribute as much as I have in the past, if I do see something that can be discussed in the MT MA forum, I share it but it is usually after much deliberation.

Lastly, no one's perfect. We need each other to keep each other in check. I remember discussions concerning all kinds of things in MA that different people have shared even if it was kind of sticky or iffy. Some of these I started, which some topics dealt with how much local control should be allowed to test for Lakan/1st Dan, sharing a clip that showed the Professor doing Carenza, created a poll on how people felt about Probationary Black Belts, and opening thread concerning the title of Professor outside of the Professor's usage in Modern Arnis. There have been more and there have been hot threads that I contributed posts dealing with promotions of the SMs and GMs. We used to discuss heavy topics on this Forum and shared MA techniques and content. That is what I am used to and that is what I'm going to do as long as I am here.

I myself face scrutiny in some things that I have posted on MT but that's why I posted them on here. Especially my rank accomplishments in order to allow participants to comment on those statuses, to have a documented history trail for the future, and to use MT as a peer review and sounding board regarding some things (my logo was one of items I put up to review and scrutiny).

Lastly Sir, if I mention that you are off topic, please take it at face value. Of course I know about RTMs but what I know better than that is the Martial way of respect and customer service. I feel if we respect each other and convey an attitude of service excellence, it goes a long way to building relationships and earning respect. People don't have to like what I say but they cannot say that I am not sincere in what I say.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 29, 2012)

Sheesh.

ok, guys, cool it huh?  The pissing match is poisoning the well.


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## MJS (Apr 30, 2012)

Guro Harold said:


> MJS, Sir:
> 
> - Who said that I was an expert at knowing the Professor's intentions? Sir, that's very offensive, disrespectful and quite patronizing. Its ok for me to state what my impressions of what I thought what the Professor communicated to us in his videos and especially the public events that I attended. I was never as close to him as a GM Tim, Masters Rich, BrianZ or BrianJ because they knew him longer but it doesn't mean I wasn't touched by the things he relayed in the brief time I knew him.



Well Sir, that is the impression that I got from your replies to me...that I was missing something.  Your posts imply that you know his intentions, thus my asking you.  In case you're unaware, Brian Z is my teacher.  We've had many discussions about the Prof and he has shared quiet a bit with me.  



> - Sir, these were public events and posting. Its ok for me to post questions regarding them to the general MA community. No one personally offended me or my students. While the advise that Master BrianZ is great advice and I do this anyway for personal engagements and interest, its ok to ping a community regarding their thoughts on different matters. I have done this for 12 years on this forum.



Of course Sir, your posting history is noted.  And I'm also sure you're aware Sir, of the forum rules.  Posting to incite conflict is one of those no-no's.  



> - Sir, I was an IMAF member(non current). I have met Master Ladis, I know Master Chuck. The last time I saw the Professor alive (Lexington, Ky), BrianJ was there as well and the Professor complimented both of us on our progress when we were working together. I have met GM Tim and have interated with BrianZ.



And Brian Z, as well as myself Sir, have suggested that you contact Jim, if you or anyone else, is that concerned with the title of the seminar Jim is using.  IMHO, Brian Z gave some of the best replies to your question so far, yet you're still harping on the subject.  



> I think that you didn't get that I don't ask questions because I think I'm right but that I ask to learn. That no matter my rank, I am still open to learn. That as an Instructor, its ok for me to seek clarification from those whom I respect. That the Professor's legacy is important to me and that the these questions were asked not to down anyone but to gain clarity on a perceived inconsistency.



Likewise, I don't claim to know all there is to know either.  Just because I'm an Arnis Black Belt, doesnt mean my learning has stopped.  However, you stated, and I'd be happy to point out the posts, that you said I'm missing something.  I asked you to clairfy.  I've yet to receive an answer.  



> - Lastly Sir, I think that you failed to recall is that I am still a MT mentor. That creating thoughtful threads is still an important aspect of my contribution to this site. My MT stat have always exclusively been in the MT MA forum and then FMA. I tend not to air out private beefs. Though because of life and work it's hard for me to contribute as much as I have in the past, if I do see something that can be discussed in the MT MA forum, I share it but it is usually after much deliberation.



Like I said, your posting habits are noted.  Furthermore, I'm well aware of your 'Mentor" status.  



> Lastly, no one's perfect. We need each other to keep each other in check. I remember discussions concerning all kinds of things in MA that different people have shared even if it was kind of sticky or iffy. Some of these I started, which some topics dealt with how much local control should be allowed to test for Lakan/1st Dan, sharing a clip that showed the Professor doing Carenza, created a poll on how people felt about Probationary Black Belts, and opening thread concerning the title of Professor outside of the Professor's usage in Modern Arnis. There have been more and there have been hot threads that I contributed posts dealing with promotions of the SMs and GMs. We used to discuss heavy topics on this Forum and shared MA techniques and content. That is what I am used to and that is what I'm going to do as long as I am here.



Which is fine.  Just stick within those rules, as have I.  I think many times Sir, people are looking for something specific, and when they don't get that specific answer, they tend to get upset, and go on a post reporting spree and cry foul in-thread.  Just like you Sir, I'm just as entitled to ask any questions that I wish to ask...as long as I'm within the rules, which I have been.  You're used to 'hot threads' as am I.  We're all different, thus we're not all going to agree, which again, isn't call for a RTM spree.  



> I myself face scrutiny in some things that I have posted on MT but that's why I posted them on here. Especially my rank accomplishments in order to allow participants to comment on those statuses, to have a documented history trail for the future, and to use MT as a peer review and sounding board regarding some things (my logo was one of items I put up to review and scrutiny).



Likewise. 



> Lastly Sir, if I mention that you are off topic, please take it at face value. Of course I know about RTMs but what I know better than that is the Martial way of respect and customer service. I feel if we respect each other and convey an attitude of service excellence, it goes a long way to building relationships and earning respect. People don't have to like what I say but they cannot say that I am not sincere in what I say.



Not off topic at all.  I asked a question...again, it wasn't what YOU wanted to hear, thus your off topic call.  BTW, I sent you a PM.  Didn't get a reply.  Perhaps if you feel I'm off topic, we can continue off line via PM.  My posts are very much on topic Sir, as I asked you to point out what I'm missing, and you've failed to answer.  You started this thread asking about Jim Ladis.  I can only assume that you feel that the Prof. wouldn't approve of Jims seminar title.  Am I correct?  Furthermore, I stated that SD can be violent.  Just like if someone were to use the word "Combat" in the title of their art.  Combat doesn't imply sitting to have tea, it implies violence.  I stated that the Prof. didn't want certain bladed things taught.  Once again Sir, if I'm missing something, which you claim that I am, please, share with me.


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## Grenadier (Apr 30, 2012)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this conversation on-topic, and civil.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Apr 30, 2012)

As one of the co-founders of Martial Talk I thought I would share some thoughts on this thread. I will attempt to keep this in some form of order, although it's difficult with how the thread has been jumping around.

I will first start with Harold. There was no reason to start the thread when you did. When you received the seminar notice, if you had a problem with the wording, you could've easily reached out to Jim discuss your issues.  Instead you chose to put it on the web where all its doing is causing trouble. In my opinion this thread was just to cause trouble (like you have done in the past).  I don't know if you feel left out or you feel the need to be the center of attention but, in my opinion, this is not a sincere thread. What you could have, or should have, done was reach out to the powers that be to give them opportunity to fix the problem.  If they chose to ignore you, then you would have been within your rights to open up this discussion on the forums. By going directly to complaining on the Internet, you never gave the powers that be the opportunity to fix the problem.

Brian Z.
As Harold pointed out, it is good to have someone from the IMAF administrative board to be present on these discussion forums. As you pointed out, (and we've discussed in previous conversations) you're a novice when it comes to the discussion forums on the Internet. This particular thread will be a very good learning opportunity for you. When you came in saying this stops right here, right now, for a moment I thought about explaining something to you, but I figured it would be better for you to learn from personal experiences. As you can see, it didnt stop here and now.  Statements like that equate to throwing a match into a can of gasoline.


Brian J.
You made comments about knowing Jims sense of humor. The problem you run into is many people who were reading the flyer, don't know anything about Jim. When putting things in writing on flyers or the Internet, you must always realize that people don't know who you are and quite often misconstrue your meaning or intent.

Now for the topic at hand - inappropriate advertising for Modern Arnis. As far as Chuck's survey goes, I have no problem with it at all. As we all know, martial arts is *controlled* violence. However, I do have a problem with Jim's flyer. I don't feel that there's any reason to have the word a$$ in a martial art flier. I think it's inappropriate as well as being unprofessional. That being said, I'm not going to lose any sleep over Jim's method of advertising. He will be judged by his own actions. There are going to be people that will find the flyer acceptable and maybe even humorous.

As for the seminar not being a sanctioned IMAF event, that's a hard one to swallow. If Jim is a current member of the IMAF, he is a member 24/7, not when it's convenient. If he were teaching something other than MA, I could see your point. But this is a MA seminar at one of the MOTTs locations.  How could it not be sanctioned unless he is no longer a member of your organization.  More and more frequently, we see politicians, actors, pro athletes, etc. that have made mistakes in their personal life, and the affect it has on their careers. Whether or not the event is sanctioned, the IMAF will be judged be its members actions. As they say, guilt by association. As far as the event not being listed on the website, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not sanctioned. As someone who manages his own website, it is easy for updates to slip through the cracks. Looking at the website, it is easy to see that it's not up to date at this time. 

Now a second topic has come out of this thread: Professor's vision or direction of the art. Modern Arnis is usually introduced as a self defense art first and foremost, but it's also a fighting art. Look at Tapi  Tapi. Are you telling me that is self defense? It is fighting concepts that he adapted from Balintawak.

At the last camp in Atlanta, Prof. had me teaching my Mano Y Daga program. During the session, he showed me some blade on blade material to put into the program. He also told me that he would start some blade seminars and camps that we would do together.

It really gets me wound up when people say "Remy wanted this and Remy wanted that" when most likely they spent very little time with him, if any at all!  I started Modern Arnis as my primary system in 1985. I have spent more time with him than MOST (not all) of his US students. Not only did he spend time with me, but with my family as well. That being said, I can't say for sure what he would want because his vision kept evolving.

But Remy is gone. There is a new generation of people taking point on spreading the art. With new people there are new goals and directions. If we all had the same goals, there would be less MA organizations at this time. If you don't like the direction of the organization you belong to, then leave. No one is keeping you there!

The question that I'm asking you, Harold, is why do you care? You are a FCS and a Hock guy. I don't remember seeing anything about you doing any Modern Arnis events. If you're so concerned about Modern Arnis and its future, why didn't we see you at the reunion camp? That was a great event with even better energy. It has also inspired several other events.

Well that's my .02 cents on the topic. If anyone wants to talk to me about this offline, let me know. Now, I have to get ready for the tournament I'm hosting this weekend.

Respectfully yours,
Datu Tim Hartman
GM-Presas Arnis


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## Guro Harold (Apr 30, 2012)

*As one of the co-founders of Martial Talk I thought I would share some thoughts on this thread. I will attempt to keep this in some form of order, although it's difficult with how the thread has been jumping around.

I will first start with Harold. There was no reason to start the thread when you did. When you received the seminar notice, if you had a problem with the wording, you could've easily reached out to Jim discuss your issues.  Instead you chose to put it on the web where all its doing is causing trouble. In my opinion this thread was just to cause trouble (like you have done in the past).
*
Thanks Tim! I'll take that as I high compliment and looked to your example about how to have orderly peaceful transitions. I think I would start calling myself the Black Renegade now, but the term renegade has highly negative connotations and its already been used: 
One who rejects a religion, cause, allegiance, or group for another; a deserter.

*Brian Z.
As Harold pointed out, it is good to have someone from the IMAF administrative board to be present on these discussion forums.
*
-Glad we can agree about something.


*Brian J.
You made comments about knowing Jim&#8217;s sense of humor. The problem you run into is many people who were reading the flyer, don't know anything about Jim. When putting things in writing on flyers or the Internet, you must always realize that people don't know who you are and quite often misconstrue your meaning or intent.

Now for the topic at hand - inappropriate advertising for Modern Arnis. As far as Chuck's survey goes, I have no problem with it at all. As we all know, martial arts is controlled violence. However, I do have a problem with Jim's flyer. I don't feel that there's any reason to have the word a$$ in a martial art flier. I think it's inappropriate as well as being unprofessional. That being said, I'm not going to lose any sleep over Jim's method of advertising. He will be judged by his own actions. There are going to be people that will find the flyer acceptable and maybe even humorous.*

- Glad there is agreement on this as well. And actually you did state this better that I did.

*As for the seminar not being a sanctioned IMAF event, that's a hard one to swallow. If Jim is a current member of the IMAF, he is a member 24/7, not when it's convenient. If he were teaching something other than MA, I could see your point. But this is a MA seminar at one of the MOTTs locations.  How could it not be sanctioned unless he is no longer a member of your organization.  More and more frequently, we see politicians, actors, pro athletes, etc. that have made mistakes in their personal life, and the affect it has on their careers. Whether or not the event is sanctioned, the IMAF will be judged be its members&#8217; actions. As they say, guilt by association. As far as the event not being listed on the website, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not sanctioned. As someone who manages his own website, it is easy for updates to slip through the cracks. Looking at the website, it is easy to see that it's not up to date at this time. 
*- Agreed.

_*Now a second topic has come out of this thread: Professor's vision or direction of the art. Modern Arnis is usually introduced as a self defense art first and foremost, but it's also a fighting art. Look at Tapi &#8211; Tapi. Are you telling me that is self defense? It is fighting concepts that he adapted from Balintawak.
*_-True, I do admit again concern regarding the titles. That is what caused the concern.

_*At the last camp in Atlanta, Prof. had me teaching my Mano Y Daga program.
*_- Yes, I was there for some of this. I remember him contemplating what the program could be named at the lunch table and do remember all of you Masters being jealous of the pretty blond lady flirting with me in the lunch line as well. 

_*The question that I'm asking you, Harold, is why do you care? You are a FCS and a Hock guy. I don't remember seeing anything about you doing any Modern Arnis events.
*_
 Yes I am a FCS and Hock guy, actually Hock's Filipino Combatives is actually based on Presas Family Arnis as Hock studied with both GM Ernesto and GM Remy. THe Sil Lum Kung fu system had a great deal of Modern Arnis incorporated with it at one time. Modern Arnis is also one of the Major Sub Systems influences in FCS. I most certainly still teach aspects Modern Arnis and taught aspects of it in a Making the Connection seminar a couple of weeks ago. I do post primarily most of my events now on FaceBook and at times on my site. 

*If you're so concerned about Modern Arnis and its future, why didn't we see you at the reunion camp? That was a great event with even better energy. It has also inspired several other events.
*- I'm sure it was but unfortunately, my schedule does not allow me to attend a great deal of events or travel due to my family and work commitments. This is why I will not be able to attend the Hall of Fame as well.

But Tim if you are open to invite me personally to any of your other events, I would be delighted and would consider them in the future. You are an alright guy and I do like your stories about the Professor. The knife stuff that you showed is still somewhere up in my head and I still remember the discussions the northern aspects of knife fighting (we down here in the south don't tend to wear Buffalo, NY thick leather coats.


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## MJS (May 1, 2012)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> As one of the co-founders of Martial Talk I thought I would share some thoughts on this thread. I will attempt to keep this in some form of order, although it's difficult with how the thread has been jumping around.
> 
> I will first start with Harold. There was no reason to start the thread when you did. When you received the seminar notice, if you had a problem with the wording, you could've easily reached out to Jim discuss your issues.  Instead you chose to put it on the web where all its doing is causing trouble. In my opinion this thread was just to cause trouble (like you have done in the past).  I don't know if you feel left out or you feel the need to be the center of attention but, in my opinion, this is not a sincere thread. What you could have, or should have, done was reach out to the &#8220;powers that be&#8221; to give them opportunity to fix the problem.  If they chose to ignore you, then you would have been within your rights to open up this discussion on the forums. By going directly to complaining on the Internet, you never gave the &#8220;powers that be&#8221; the opportunity to fix the problem.
> 
> ...



Nice reply Tim.  And I'm surprised that it didn't get reported.   Anyways....just to touch on a few things.  Couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the topic in general.  As for Brian Z's comments...well, I wont speak for him, as he's more than capable of speaking for himself.   Knowing Brian for as long as I have, I'm sure his intentions were well, and was simply trying to prevent a fire before one happened.  Unfortunately, it didn't work.  

As for the title of the seminar....well, better words probably could've been used.  But like you said, in the end, people will have to take responsibility for their actions.  

As for whether or not this was a sanctioned IMAF event...well, I'd say Brian Z is the best one to answer that, but from what I can see, any events, ie: camps, seminars, that're taught under the IMAF heading, are usually listed on that site.  OTOH, there are often smaller, perhaps less formal, for lack of better words, events, that are not.  I'm guessing that this was one of them, but I'm not 100% certain.  As for the site not being up to date...I looked at it last night and it seemed up to date to me.  There are older pics from past events there, so I'm not sure if thats what you meant. 

I know you're busy with your upcoming event, but shoot me a PM and let me know when you're free for a call.  I have the next 4 days off this week.

Take care,

Mike


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## BrianZ (May 1, 2012)

Tim,
While I do not think Harold had any ill intent with his initial post, it would have been ideal if he went to Jim or IMAF directly for clarification as his post was subjective in nature. While your replies to him are too inflammatory for me personally, I think you and I are on the same page, we just "present" very very differently, then again, we have discussed this difference in great length.

As far as my being a "novice" on this forum and your indication of our conversations, what you are not aware of is that while I may have "novice" status on this forum, I have over a decade of experience on other forums (they are secure forums within the law enforcement realm and they are much more volatile than MT because they deal with deadly force, civil and criminal litigation, as well as having your butt put through the wringer in court at the hands of an attorney who sees nothing but dollar signs).

The contrast between those forums and this one is dramatic and is succinctly represented in this post where someone indicated they do not know and/or have never met Master Jim, but they felt the need to judge him or tell folks what they think Jim should or should not have done with that flyer. Try that on a forum where most of the folks posting have truly walked the walk and gone home at least once with a brown racing stripe in their shorts, and rest assured, it will not be pretty.

In addition, it takes far more interpersonal communication skills, patience, understanding, respect for others, and ability to deal with people face to face than it does to bang away on a keyboard. It takes even more than that to survive amongst a violent inmate population for two decades armed with nothing other than your mind, voice, (okay and maybe a little Tapi Tapi  ).

As far as this being a learning opportunity, I would say that I have learned some things, but I am quite confident it is far different than what you have in mind. I have learned that people are still talking about people (rather than going to source, BTW, I still do not see any indication that Jim was contacted yet). In addition, it has shown me that folks are still spending an awful lot of time and energy on the keyboard, rather than on the mat(s) and lastly, that folks are still making significant assumptions (i.e. stating things like being "guilty by association"). The flyer says Modern Arnis Chicago, not IMAF, LLC.

I have invested 31 years in Modern Arnis, and when I see a post or something similar being started that is based on assumptions, subjectivity, or someone attempting to defame or denigrate Modern Arnis, IMAF, or our Teacher, I just might take a moment and speak up as I did in this post in hopes that it will either stop then and there or at least be re-directed in a healthier direction. Our First Amendments rights are priceless, but we still own our own actions.

I have invested far too much of my time responding to this post already (this is my fault/choice and mine alone), but rest assured, it won't happen again anytime soon.

I wish everyone the best of life, love, health, happiness and may God bless us all,
Brian Z
IMAF, LLC.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 1, 2012)

Okay everyone cool down, take a step back and relax!  I don't think Harold was going after anyone and vice versa.  More of a comment on how the seminar was being marketed!

As Bob asked chill!!!


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## Guro Harold (May 1, 2012)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay everyone cool down, take a step back and relax!  I don't think Harold was going after anyone and vice versa.  More of a comment on how the seminar was being marketed!
> 
> As Bob asked chill!!!


Thank you Brian for your kind words.

Hi BrianZ, again please know that I meant no ill will to Masters Ladis or Chuck or IMAF in anyway. Please respect my decision and point of view that it was and is no need for me to call people who are not in my charge or haven't done anything directly to me, my family or friends, my students, or to my direct instructors. This was a public event and I did bring up a question as such. Also, one of my other friends had questions regarding the flyer and discussed it. They didn't realize that I had gotten the same flyer. I cannot speak for how many people had the same reaction but I know at least one other person on that mailing list did. Also, as far as posting on MT my daily stat as been running at an incredible average of .99 post per day. 

GM Tim, I want you to know that whatever way you think that I have been trouble, please expect more of it if trouble means that I respectfully state my opinion. Nothing personal, but if a disagreement doesn't concern my families' well-being then it really has no value to me. Because I know myself. So whatever way you think of me and "trouble" I have caused, it has not stopped or hindered my growth or success. If I have been "trouble" it doesn't reflect the contributions that I have made on this forum and in the small contributions to the Martial Arts. Therefore, As far as I am concerned, you can keep whatever trouble that you think that I have done to yourself, because troubles only stay with you if you choose to hold on to them. Again, you are welcome in good will to personally invite me to your future events but please know the past means nothing to me. Only today. And if I go train anywhere, I'm there to have fun! 

I same this same thing to anyone who has a problem with me, You are welcome to keep your impressions and your feelings. I have moved on.

The last point I would like to make in this thread is I know what PIP injuries are, I know what a full power shot of 2'' rattan to the dome can do (SCA/RAC), I know what a full power abaniko to the bridge of the nose to the mouth can do, and I know what hyperextensions feel like. All of these were experienced when training Modern Arnis.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 1, 2012)

Let me put another look at this from a different perspective.  I have a good friend that markets his seminars in a certain manner that definitely shoots for a more violent outlook.  *It works for him well and fits him*.  I do not however market my seminars in this same manner but take a lower key approach which tends to work very well for me.  However, take the material that both of us teach and they end up being very, very similar.  It is in the end a personal choice how any instructor markets their event!


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 17, 2012)

Since we are worried about the image of violence in Modern Arnis, I thought I would get some feed back from the members here on MT on my new T-shirt.

BTW, I can take credit cards and PayPal.


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## MJS (May 17, 2012)

I like it! :ultracool


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 13, 2012)

Since I mentioned it here I might as well post it here first. The NEW Presas Arnis T-shirts are now in! They are a unisex shirt. 
Colors are Black or Pink.

Sizes are:
Black Youth Medium thru Adult XX-Large
Pink Youth Medium thru Adult X-Large

Prices are $19.99 each +$5.00 for S&H, will combine S&H for multiple items.

Payments: Pay Pal, Credit Cards ans Money Orders.

For orders e-mail me at: admin@wmarnis.com


View attachment $Presas Arnis T-Shirt.jpg​


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## mtbates (Jun 15, 2012)

T.J.
will you be hawking, I mean selling them at the Blackbelt Hall of Fame Camp this week @Villanova Univ.?


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 16, 2012)

I can bring a few items. I always have the Mobile Pro Shop with me. I can accept credit cards on site!


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## MJS (Jun 16, 2012)

Gee Tim, I dont know....first 'violent' terms for seminars and now we've got violent terms on shirts.  What is the world coming to? 

LMAO...seriously though, all kidding aside, I like the shirts!


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## arnisador (Aug 19, 2012)

I have to agree with *Guro Harold* here. People can say and do what they want but it certainly did come as something of a surprise to me to see things couched in those provocative terms and a discussion as to what this means (if anything) about where the art is headed is on-topic. Kelly Worden and others have taken Modern Arnis in another direction that is less purely defensive and that's OK--the Prof. encouraged people to branch out on there own. It sounds like there's smoke but not fire here and I'm glad to know it but it seems like a fair topic for conversation to me. The art has broken up since the death of its founder--a common story but people will be interested for a long time in where the various threads lead.


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## MJS (Aug 19, 2012)

arnisador said:


> I have to agree with *Guro Harold* here. People can say and do what they want but it certainly did come as something of a surprise to me to see things couched in those provocative terms and a discussion as to what this means (if anything) about where the art is headed is on-topic. Kelly Worden and others have taken Modern Arnis in another direction that is less purely defensive and that's OK--the Prof. encouraged people to branch out on there own. It sounds like there's smoke but not fire here and I'm glad to know it but it seems like a fair topic for conversation to me. The art has broken up since the death of its founder--a common story but people will be interested for a long time in where the various threads lead.



Of course, going to the source is also an option.   SD is violent.  I think thats a no brainer.  It was said that I was missing something.  I asked, but never got an answer.  *shrug*  Oh well.....


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