# Boys ages 14, 16 charged with gang-raping woman, torturing preteen



## Ceicei

Almost makes one want to never pick up the news again... :flammad:  Makes me so sick to my stomach!  :barf:

It seems people have become more and more cold and violent.  Can anything be done to turn the tide or is it too late?  It becomes even more important for me to stress the "self defense".  I want to run out there and tell people to wake up!

This was started by a simple beginning to this tragedy:



> According to the police report, a man knocked on the woman&#8217;s door at about 9 p.m. and told her he had a flat tire. The mother and son, whom police have not identified, went outside and were ambushed by a group of gun-wielding suspects.



And led to this:



> WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Two teenagers were accused of gang-raping a woman and forcing her 12-year-old son to join in the attack, then beating him and pouring cleaning solution into his eyes.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19636099/


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## MA-Caver

My God! :disgust::disgust::disgust:


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## Darksoul

-Society is indeed in need of waking up. Thats freaking unnaceptable. Those punks need to be punished _severely._ Unfortunately I don't have the faith in the system to see justice done properly or to see it really have an impact for people to change. Wow.

A--->


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## MJS

There are some very sick people in this world.  Every one of those scum bags needs to be locked up.  I know there have been many threads about prison, treatment, etc., but IMHO, these people are beyond help!  They all need to be locked up for many years.  Makes one wonder what their parents are like.


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## Sukerkin

First I want to preface this with the hope that everyone here knows that normally I take a very even-handed view of topics, no matter how emotive they may be.

That said, I get extra-ordinarily right wing when I hear things like this - I suspect it's the dark side of my 'do the right thing regardless of cost' nature.

I know that historically even the harshest penalties do not prevent crime if people are desperate enough and that it is imperative that the judicial system does everything in its power to prevent miscarriages of justice.

But (who didn't guess there was a "But" coming here ?) there comes a point when society needs to protect itself against elements within itself that are, to borrow a medical cliche, cancerous i.e. not amenable to treatment.  These 'people' (loosely applied term) were not driven to steal a loaf of bread because they were starving but entered an area of behaviour I didn't think could still exist in Western society in the 21st century.

I appreciate that it's very easy to get 'derailed' with an approach like this and plunge into despotism but in cases where it is clear who the culprits are and the crimes are so heinous I'm shocked to hear myself say it but I'd be first in line to sign for the death penalty.  Remove these people-shaped aberrations permanently so that they can perpertrate no further similar offences.


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## arnisador

I don't know what to say.


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## MA-Caver

Well the article said that there were 10 of them... only two got charged. Probably because they got caught... what about the other 8. Two may end up in prison for a long time but the other 8 are still "out there", free to do what comes to their mind... again. 
That is the scary part. All of these guys need to be taken care of. 

Then once again the mother and the son will have to undergo long periods of treatment and counseling. Especially the boy. Having to "rape" his own mother or lose his life must've been a terrible choice for one his age. An older teen probably would've done the noble thing and lost his life defending his mother but the threat could have included his mother as well... "...first we'll kill you, then your mom!" Of course the perps couldn't have begun to imagine (or even care) that they were in effect killing the mother anyway with their vile acts. 
Then having adding the torture of burning his eyes with various chemicals, how heart-wrenching it must've been for the mother to hear her son's screams. My prayers to them both. 

No, these kids (and that's what makes this story all the more horrible) need to be locked away in a deep dark place ... forever. IMO they're beyond (human) redemption. Not beyond forgiveness but definitely beyond redemption. Nothing, no possible argument to the contrary can convince me that these animals may "grow-out" of it and become remorseful and change to be productive members of society. I just can't see it.


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## Blotan Hunka

Sukerkin said:


> I know that historically even the harshest penalties do not prevent crime if people are desperate enough and that it is imperative that the judicial system does everything in its power to prevent miscarriages of justice.


 
It prevents the executed from committing crimes and since I do believe in the 10/90 principle (10% of the people are committing 90% of the crime) I think the death penalty is just what the Dr. ordered.


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## qi-tah

Regarding the perpetrators of this terrible crime... may they never be able to sleep again. May the cries of their victims and the horror of what they have done haunt them for the rest of their days. 

I really hope the mother and her son can recover from this ordeal.


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## MA-Caver

qi-tah said:


> Regarding the perpetrators of this terrible crime... may they never be able to sleep again. May the cries of their victims and the horror of what they have done haunt them for the rest of their days.


No, that's what makes these guys (and thousands more like them) animals, they're able to sleep and soundly. Recall that one of them denies participation. You can bet that he had a smug smile on his face while saying: "I didn't do it."


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## Brian R. VanCise

Just absolutely disgusting.


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## Andy Moynihan

I'm with Suke.

There comes a point--and there can be no doubt, by this point, that these diseased lifeforms are beyond it--where a person just is not fixable.

You don't "rehabilitate" diseased lifeforms like this.

You ventilate them.


But you know they won't do it.


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## Mr. E

Sukerkin said:


> But (who didn't guess there was a "But" coming here ?) there comes a point when society needs to protect itself against elements within itself that are, to borrow a medical cliche, cancerous i.e. not amenable to treatment.  These 'people' (loosely applied term) were not driven to steal a loaf of bread because they were starving but entered an area of behaviour I didn't think could still exist in Western society in the 21st century.



Like Andy, I am with you on this point.

The thing that makes me want to puke is the fact that neither of these kids will do much time behind bars. IIRC, the punishments they get as 14-16 year olds are pretty tame. They both will be out about the time they can legally drink. The chances of a 14 year old being tried as an adult in a group action is pretty slim. I am sure his lawyer will try to say that he was forced into it by the others. Then it is up to the state to prove that he did things of his own free will.

And if these guys are doing things like this at this age, imagine the types of things they will be doing once they get out.

And I doubt there is a chance they will give up the others involved in the crime. I am sure that when they go up for parole they will cry and say they are sorry. I hope that the board members will ask them to prove their remorse by giving the names of the others. But I fear the board will not even do that, and the kids will be out soon anyways.


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## Touch Of Death

arnisador said:


> I don't know what to say.


I do. This sort of thing happens and has been happening all the time. It is only now that attention is payed on a global scale. Things are not worse.
Sean


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## Mr. E

Touch Of Death said:


> I do. This sort of thing happens and has been happening all the time. It is only now that attention is payed on a global scale. Things are not worse.



I have to disagree.

History seems to bounce back and forth. Societies seem to get tolerant of things and let them slide to a point where things are about to collapse. In desperation they turn to strong leaders that do some pretty nasty things, but do allow the common folk to walk the streets safely. People get complacent about the safety and start tearing down the power of the tyrants and the process starts all over again.

And it seems to me that in animals as well as battles, evolution and change are required. Those that try to fight battles under the old rules get eaten by those that have looked at the old rules and found flaws in them.

I think it is safe to say that we are in a battle with crime. The rules that society is playing by is that 14 year olds are not responsible for their own actions and can't be judged or punished as harshly as those that are older. While we cling to the old rules, the criminal gangs have evolved and are now training their youngest members to commit and take the blame for the worst crimes. In the past, children as young as these have commited vicious crimes. The difference is that now they are being _trained_ from a young age by gangs to be animals because they will not be judged as harshly. I suspect that this type of crime was some sort of training for the younger members of a gang to get them to do what the group says and get them used to some pretty nasty things.

If we were to take these two animals out and put them down like the mad dogs, useless to society, that they are there might be a big change in the way crime is battled. No longer would youngesters be indoctrinated from a young age at being able to kill and worse without fear of real trouble.

But that will not happen. We will cling to the old rules until things are so bad that we have no choice but to bring in someone that will rule with an iron fist or face collapse. Street gangs rule some parts of major cities just like the guerillas in war zones. The police can't get people to testify against them and use the law because the gangs know the rules and how to get around them- intimidating witnesses and killing those that oppose them with kids that will be released in a few years.

It is depressing. I do not see how to combat it under the rules we have now. And people do not want to face the uncetainty of even talking about changing the rules. We can't even talk about real strategies of stopping this type of thing, much less stop it.


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## MA-Caver

Mr. E said:


> But that will not happen. We will cling to the old rules until things are so bad that we have no choice but to bring in someone that will rule with an iron fist or face collapse.


Well, you're basically talking about a Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Saddam, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (aka Shah of Iran), Idi Amin, and so forth... the crime in these despots' countries were relatively low due to the severe and final punishments and terrible prison conditions imposed by these leaders. 
Better the devil you know (criminals) than some iron-fisted ruler. Because their laws will be horribly strict and meted out to everyone, and I don't want to be sent to some Minnesotan or Montana Gulag just for spitting on the sidewalk.  


Mr. E said:


> Street gangs rule some parts of major cities just like the guerillas in war zones. The police can't get people to testify against them and use the law because the gangs know the rules and how to get around them- intimidating witnesses and killing those that oppose them with kids that will be released in a few years.


This type of societial bullying is basically the same that was held by the organized crime lords of Chicago and New York during the prohibition years and so on. While (modern day) gangstas are fearsome they *shouldn't* be feared. Ok respected for the violence that they can commit against someone but not feared. Letting someone have fear over you is letting them control you, your thoughts and your actions (see above statements about Iron Fisted Rulers). There is a way to deal with these young hoodlums, it may be harsh but eventually society will stand up and tell the law-makers to crack-down on these youthful offenders. We as a society (also British society) have the power to have the laws that we want to have. We have to band together to tell those gits and idiots on the hill to write them so that we, the average citizens will feel safer but safer on OUR terms. It *can* be done. 



Mr. E said:


> It is depressing. I do not see how to combat it under the rules we have now. And people do not want to face the uncertainty of even talking about changing the rules. We can't even talk about real strategies of stopping this type of thing, much less stop it.


 Talking about strategies now is a good way to have it all worked out and having a good plan to give to law-makers to work with. Better to do it all now than to find someone who'll stand up and say... :"Ok, we're going to crack down on these hoodlums ... so give us a few years to do the studies and planning" ... We can do this and we (again) as a society can tell them to do it THIS or THAT way. We've enough intelligent and knowledgeable people outside politics that can come up with a workable, viable solution. All those guys on the hill have to do is simply pass it into law.


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## Mr. E

MA-Caver said:


> There is a way to deal with these young hoodlums, it may be harsh but eventually society will stand up and tell the law-makers to crack-down on these youthful offenders. We as a society (also British society) have the power to have the laws that we want to have. We have to band together to tell those gits and idiots on the hill to write them so that we, the average citizens will feel safer but safer on OUR terms. It *can* be done.



The madness of a crowd scares me more than some politicians. Some of the worst dictators were first elected into office by the same populace you say can be the solution.

As I see it, there are some real barriars against anybody doing something to stop the descent into chaos. There is the constitution for one. Everyone has a right to face their accusers in a court of law under the US constitution. Well, if there are other gang members who are not in jail willing to kill those that would testify, how many people are going to stand up to them? Do you want to do away with that right? If we even talk about it we risk a whole bunch of people screaming about how we will be a dictatorship. 

And lets look at this case. I suspect strongly that it was some sort of training for a gang. The details are scarce, but I get that feel. It is the perfect way to insure loyalty and obidience to the group. After taking part in this type of thing, there will be few guys willing to leave and go to the police because they are guilty. If there are any police plants trying to infiltrate and get info on the gang, they will be stopped at this point. They can't go through with the event and if they stop it, the gang members will get off with a light sentence for an _attempted_ rape- probably pled down and the juveniles will get even lighter sentances.

Can you give me a concrete way we as the people can pass laws and make our government combat these types of things?

Anything we try to prevent this type of thing will probably step on some toes in terms of civil rights. If we take the kids out and shoot them, there will be a great amount of screaming from all the "civilized" countries as well as from inside the US about killing kids. Even if you locked them up for life there will be screaming about overly- harsh punishments. But if you don't really treat these types of animals harshly, then the pattern of gangs training and using their youngest members will continue. Why should they stop if something proves to work?

We could demand that 14 year olds or younger found to have engaged in this type of thing be locked up for life. It will not work. Too many people will oppose it as being draconian or maybe even racist. Stories of the few kids that say they are repentent will make good press and cause people to go lax- ignoring the many more who are just damaged for life like these kids are.

People will continue to deny that there is a problem rather than risk change in what they know. Your words seem to confirm that. The crowd acts like a herd, either not moving or stampeding in terror.

We will not do anything until things are so bad that no one can deny it. By that time it will be too late for anything but the most drastic of measures.


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## MJS

Came across another article on this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19698132/


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## Sukerkin

It just goes from bad to worse (or in this case from horrific to nightmarish).


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## Steel Tiger

I was going to say it beggars belief, but sadly that's not true.

These creatures (they are not animals, animals don't behave in this fashion) are beyond the pale.  How can our society have failed so badly as to produce beings so incapable of making such basic decisions about right and wrong?  

But it is more than this.  The crime is heinous, almost beyond words, and it has thrown a spotlight on a very unpleasant aspect of modern society:  the neglected fringes.  I am not going to put this forward as some way of justifying what was done, that simply is not possible.  I don't care how bad your living conditions are you can still choose not to hurt people.  What I am saying is that it has, once again, highlighted the fact that our society has its failures.

Were the actions of these villains the product of their unbringing and lifestyle?  Some would say yes, but I would rather point to a society that has let someone develop with such a warped set of values that would allow them to even contemplate such a grievous assault as this.  As MA-C said they won't even lose sleep over it because it simply will not impact their conscience or morality.  And yet there are others living in similar conditions who would not even begin to think about doing something like this.  

I just don't know.


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## MJS

Steel Tiger said:


> I was going to say it beggars belief, but sadly that's not true.
> 
> These creatures (they are not animals, animals don't behave in this fashion) are beyond the pale. How can our society have failed so badly as to produce beings so incapable of making such basic decisions about right and wrong?
> 
> But it is more than this. The crime is heinous, almost beyond words, and it has thrown a spotlight on a very unpleasant aspect of modern society: the neglected fringes. I am not going to put this forward as some way of justifying what was done, that simply is not possible. I don't care how bad your living conditions are you can still choose not to hurt people. What I am saying is that it has, once again, highlighted the fact that our society has its failures.
> 
> Were the actions of these villains the product of their unbringing and lifestyle? Some would say yes, but I would rather point to a society that has let someone develop with such a warped set of values that would allow them to even contemplate such a grievous assault as this. As MA-C said they won't even lose sleep over it because it simply will not impact their conscience or morality. And yet there are others living in similar conditions who would not even begin to think about doing something like this.
> 
> I just don't know.


 
I'd have to say yes, its the upbringing.  We, as a society, can only help people so much.  If they choose not to correct themselves or turn their life around, we can't control that.  

You're right though...going by the reaction of one of the neighbors, and her comment, these people won't give this a second thought.  I really hope these people who did this get sent away for a long time.


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## grydth

I do not pretend to have all the answers... but as a master practitioner of the darkest art, I can at least offer you some ideas:

Do NOT stop watching the news. Your feelings of revulsion are what differentiate you from the monsters who perpetrate these crimes, and from the sheeple who've come to accept such predations as routine, almost inevitable... The stupidest proverb I have ever heard is, "What you don't know can't hurt you" - Folks, what you don't know is often what kills you. Ignorance = increased vulnerability. As with ordinary people, criminals tend to be creatures who copy and who fall into habits. The more you know of these, the more precautions you can take.

Yes, we have had monsters like these through history. I once found an ancient book on legal cases from the late 1700's to about 1840. To my surprise, the crimes were just as vicious. The difference was that those societies quickly disposed on the monster via execution, exile, army or penitentiary. What is new is societal concern... for the rights and welfare of the murderers and maimers. Whether this represents social progress, or a misguided acceptance of the Philosophy of Extinction, I leave to each of you for consideration.

Totalitarian government is not the answer. You are not safer by all citizens having no rights. < BUT - are we safer in granting so many rights to the killers?> The regimes cited above were merely those where the government replaced the individual as the chief perpetrator of violent crimes. In Stalin's Russia, one was not safe... not ever. As many historians have detailed, violent individual crime continued to flourish in Stalin's Paradise, as did mass killings by the NKVD and Red Army.

A personal icon for me in fighting back is one each Mr Goldman... the father of the guy OJ killed. He has been unflinching for years in doing everything legal in pursuit of the killer, most recently acquiring the rights to publish "If I Did It" under the new title of "Confessions of a Double Murderer". Other victims fight back in the legislature - witness Jenna's Law in NY curbing parole of violent felons... it was pushed by murder victim Jenna's family. Still others appear at parole hearings, give talks, put the heat at election time on those who let killers free to murder again.

Don't turn away. Learn and fight back.


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## MJS

grydth said:


> I do not pretend to have all the answers... but as a master practitioner of the darkest art, I can at least offer you some ideas:
> 
> Do NOT stop watching the news. Your feelings of revulsion are what differentiate you from the monsters who perpetrate these crimes, and from the sheeple who've come to accept such predations as routine, almost inevitable... The stupidest proverb I have ever heard is, "What you don't know can't hurt you" - Folks, what you don't know is often what kills you. Ignorance = increased vulnerability. As with ordinary people, criminals tend to be creatures who copy and who fall into habits. The more you know of these, the more precautions you can take.
> 
> *Yes, we have had monsters like these through history. I once found an ancient book on legal cases from the late 1700's to about 1840. To my surprise, the crimes were just as vicious. The difference was that those societies quickly disposed on the monster via execution, exile, army or penitentiary. What is new is societal concern... for the rights and welfare of the murderers and maimers. Whether this represents social progress, or a misguided acceptance of the Philosophy of Extinction, I leave to each of you for consideration.*
> 
> Totalitarian government is not the answer. You are not safer by all citizens having no rights. < BUT - are we safer in granting so many rights to the killers?> The regimes cited above were merely those where the government replaced the individual as the chief perpetrator of violent crimes. In Stalin's Russia, one was not safe... not ever. As many historians have detailed, violent individual crime continued to flourish in Stalin's Paradise, as did mass killings by the NKVD and Red Army.
> 
> A personal icon for me in fighting back is one each Mr Goldman... the father of the guy OJ killed. He has been unflinching for years in doing everything legal in pursuit of the killer, most recently acquiring the rights to publish "If I Did It" under the new title of "Confessions of a Double Murderer". Other victims fight back in the legislature - witness Jenna's Law in NY curbing parole of violent felons... it was pushed by murder victim Jenna's family. Still others appear at parole hearings, give talks, put the heat at election time on those who let killers free to murder again.
> 
> Don't turn away. Learn and fight back.


 
The bold emphasis is mine.  I dont disagree with what you said.  Regarding the bold part...well, that was before the groups such as AI and the others who are the watchdogs of how the prisoners get treated, got involved.  Maybe groups like that were around back then, I dont know, but IMO, there is no helping the people who did this to that mother and her son.


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## Steel Tiger

MJS said:


> The bold emphasis is mine. I dont disagree with what you said. Regarding the bold part...well, that was before the groups such as AI and the others who are the watchdogs of how the prisoners get treated, got involved. Maybe groups like that were around back then, I dont know, but* IMO, there is no helping the people who did this to that mother and her son*.


 
This caught my attention.  I think you are very right in this.  There is no helping them because I don't think they can understand that what they have done is so bad.  They might understand they have committed a crime, they might even have gone into the situation with the specific intent of committing a crime, but I doubt they can see that what they did is any worse than stealing a candybar from a convenience store.  That important understanding is missing from their morality.


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## MJS

Steel Tiger said:


> This caught my attention. I think you are very right in this. There is no helping them because I don't think they can understand that what they have done is so bad. They might understand they have committed a crime, they might even have gone into the situation with the specific intent of committing a crime, but I doubt they can see that what they did is any worse than stealing a candybar from a convenience store. That important understanding is missing from their morality.


 
Thanks, and you brought up a good point as well.  You're right, its unlikely that they comprehend the serious nature of this.  Usually the mention of an alternative to jail is suggested, but due to the graphic nature of this incident, I can't see anything but jail.  If it was just a candybar, sure.  But rape, a forceable armed home invasion as well as assaulting these people...sorry, but jail is what they need..for a very long time.


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## MA-Caver

Steel Tiger said:


> These creatures (they are not animals, animals don't behave in this fashion) are beyond the pale.  How can our society have failed so badly as to produce beings so incapable of making such basic decisions about right and wrong?


Steel, they are animals in every sense of the word. Mike Tyson was an animal and he proved it by beating on Robin Givens and biting Evander Hollyfield's ear off and just being one mean s.o.b. Human animals with no sense of remorse or fore or even afterthought of what they've done. It was just something to do to vent out some rage, sexual frustration (they're kids...raging hormones), and felt they could get away with it because they were kids. But even then, they just didn't give a damn. It was just something to do. To me that makes them animals. Savage, brutal, predatory animals. They've (in my eyes) have lost their rights to be human beings. Same with the Nazi's of the 40's and their prison camps, the Japanese in Nanking, Saddam's personal guards, and so on. Human beings don't behave in this fashion. 



Steel Tiger said:


> But it is more than this.  The crime is heinous, almost beyond words, and it has thrown a spotlight on a very unpleasant aspect of modern society:  the neglected fringes.  I am not going to put this forward as some way of justifying what was done, that simply is not possible.  I don't care how bad your living conditions are you can still choose not to hurt people.  What I am saying is that it has, once again, highlighted the fact that our society has its failures.


Is society really to blame? Probably but only a small portion of the blame goes to us (society). Again, the large portion of the blame rests with the parents or primary care-takers of these kids. Raised seemingly without morals, values and an appreciation of life and the sanctity thereof the kids sought out gangs to have that sense of belonging, of family. Sadly losing their humanity along the way. I've known very poor families and known very poor families who have taught their children to be good people, by not taking their frustrations out on their spouses (in front of the kids) or on their own children. Who taught their kids the value of a good education, of working hard and feeling honor in that they're doing everything they can to elevate themselves out. That the road is long and hard but possible. I've seen this and seen how good the kids are as a result. Is society responsible for them? No, the parents have taught their kids how to make choices, teaching them to make bad or good choices... lies with them.   


Steel Tiger said:


> Were the actions of these villains the product of their upbringing and lifestyle?  Some would say yes, but I would rather point to a society that has let someone develop with such a warped set of values that would allow them to even contemplate such a grievous assault as this.  As MA-C said they won't even lose sleep over it because it simply will not impact their conscience or morality.  And yet there are others living in similar conditions who would not even begin to think about doing something like this.
> I just don't know.



How are we to blame for a father's or a mother's inability to find a steady job. To find a steady GOOD paying job? Jesus Christ is quoted as saying "... the poor will be with you always..." he knew that. Throughout the course of history we've seen it and we deep down inside know it. Ceicei pointed out (in another thread) that there are some people who *refuse* to elevate themselves out of their poverty. It's a psychological comfort zone for them. It's a self-esteem thing. Some of them feel they deserve nothing more than what they have. Though they dream of someday winning a lottery or sweepstakes or a previously unknown rich relative has died and will leave them everything to them. Those are the optimistic (hopeful) poor. 
You've also got the pessimistic (hopeless) poor. The ones who have nothing but a constant litany at the (sparse) dinner table of hate, prejudice, bitterness and anger at the boss, the co-worker, the welfare case worker, the cops, and just about anyone else who "keeps them down". Heavy alcohol use (not necessarily alcoholism though it is usually but again not always the cause) the great un-inhibitor, the great exaggerator of tales and emotions is a great symptom of these negative monologues that these children hear on a daily basis at home. Then they may hear about what a ***** their mother is, how lazy and what a terrible cook and see Dad yelling and bitching at their mom daily, sometimes or all the time hitting her and yes, raping her (not necessarily in front of the kids but I've heard horror stories of it happening). These and countless of other things they see on a daily basis.  
So what do these kids do? What examples are they learning. They get together with their friends who are usually from the same type of homes and hear the same type of stories. This must be what life is like. Never mind what they see on TV. That's fantasy with the Cosby family or Fresh Prince of Bel Aire and so on. Not real, not what it's really like. These kids know better. 

So is society to blame? Maybe in part. Not creating outlets for these kids. Not creating places for these kids to go (escape to) and be exposed to role models that'll hopefully set them straight. Sure, Big Brothers and Big Sisters and the Scouts and Boys Club of America and so on... places where sometimes a predator lurks waiting for the right victim to come along... and these kids KNOW that. So why hang out there and take the chance of getting molested? They're frustrated, they want things their parents can't afford them. Selling drugs, shoplifting and the related thrills that go with them (even if they're caught). The easy money to be made, busting in houses and going to the fence/pawn-shops. Learning all types of criminal activity to escape the misery of what lies beyond the door at home, which is a crap shoot. Is Dad drunk today? Did mom get fired and is on one? Are they fighting? Did I get caught doing something I shouldn't have done and they're waiting for me to come home so they can bust my ***? A 1000 and one things which are all fearful unknowns. It toughens them up, it makes them resentful, mean, bitter and little by little their own humanity that they were born with is eroded to almost nothing. 

So is society to blame for it? In some parts yes. 

(off soap box)


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## MA-Caver

Not getting back ON the soap box but adding some after thoughts here. I got done watching a Stone Phillips interview with Jeffery Dahmler and his parents (shortly before he was killed in prison). While Dahmler, to me represents the utmost extreme of criminal cruelty to another human being and these kids are probably not too far down the scale from him, there were points in the interview(s) made that had me recollect some things I learned when I was working with convicted sex offenders during their treatments. 
For Dahmler it was primarily a control issue (which lead to sexual gratification). His parents admitted to having volatile arguments and he talked about the feeling (as a child) of the lack of control (over his environment and the people in it) he felt at the time. Thusly as an adult he was seeking to have that sense of power-control over someone (anyone). 
These kids that committed this horror I'd dare say were probably and most likely on a subconscious level were seeking that same type of control which ultimately lead to sexual acts/perversions which was just an expression of the release of the tensions (however temporary) they were experiencing in their day to day lives. An acting out phase of a vicious cycle that goes on in their lives. No, not trying to excuse them or trying to do anything except perhaps find an answer to understanding. 
Same goes with the perps who sexually abused children. It's an acting out of a deep cycle in their minds/lives that they've become accustomed to or are seeking for the first time. 
Not everyone is going to act out their frustrations and other negative feelings and low self-esteem in the same way. Some will just eat continually to the point of gross obesity, others will be those compulsive gamblers, alcoholics, addicts, workaholics, OCD's and so on. Some become fantastic social workers, doctors, LEO's, scientists, authors, musicians, artists and so forth. Some become the worse criminals we've ever heard/read about. 
Just a thought/theory as to the WHY of this terrible crime.


----------



## grydth

Even amongst a single criminal band, there can be a wide diversity of evil causes and motivations. Some are quite incapable of understanding right and wrong.... others revel in the wrong... still others are in it just for the loot - or just to gain the approval of the primary wrongdoer... or because they have nothing else to do at the moment...or...

I once encountered a serial killer whose method was to stab women to death... while he was raping them. When you are done trying to fathom this monster, try and figure this out - he had a helper. What made _that_ guy tick?

We do need to study these villains, if nothing else to protect ourselves from them... and possibly eliminate some of the circumstances that produce them. But we should never lose sight of one thing - to them we are mice, to be savagely played with, and then torn apart and eaten.


----------



## morph4me

Sukerkin said:


> I know that historically even the harshest penalties do not prevent crime if people are desperate enough and that it is imperative that the judicial system does everything in its power to prevent miscarriages of justice.
> 
> But (who didn't guess there was a "But" coming here ?) there comes a point when society needs to protect itself against elements within itself that are, to borrow a medical cliche, cancerous i.e. not amenable to treatment. These 'people' (loosely applied term) were not driven to steal a loaf of bread because they were starving but entered an area of behaviour I didn't think could still exist in Western society in the 21st century.
> 
> I appreciate that it's very easy to get 'derailed' with an approach like this and plunge into despotism but in cases where it is clear who the culprits are and the crimes are so heinous I'm shocked to hear myself say it but I'd be first in line to sign for the death penalty. Remove these people-shaped aberrations permanently so that they can perpertrate no further similar offences.


 

The death penalty may not act as a deterrent, but it does assure that these particular "people shaped aberrations" won't do it again, but it should be done slowly and painfully. In this case cruel and unusual punishment fits the crime and should be liberally applied.:angry:


----------



## morph4me

Steel Tiger said:


> I was going to say it beggars belief, but sadly that's not true.
> 
> These creatures (they are not animals, animals don't behave in this fashion) are beyond the pale. How can our society have failed so badly as to produce beings so incapable of making such basic decisions about right and wrong?
> 
> But it is more than this. The crime is heinous, almost beyond words, and it has thrown a spotlight on a very unpleasant aspect of modern society: the neglected fringes. I am not going to put this forward as some way of justifying what was done, that simply is not possible. I don't care how bad your living conditions are you can still choose not to hurt people. What I am saying is that it has, once again, highlighted the fact that our society has its failures.
> 
> Were the actions of these villains the product of their unbringing and lifestyle? Some would say yes, but I would rather point to a society that has let someone develop with such a warped set of values that would allow them to even contemplate such a grievous assault as this. As MA-C said they won't even lose sleep over it because it simply will not impact their conscience or morality. And yet there are others living in similar conditions who would not even begin to think about doing something like this.
> 
> I just don't know.


 
Society failed them?? Somehow society shares responsibilty for this?? I don't think so. Society is made up of individuals who make choices to live within the rules of that society or not. Please don't mitigate the responsiblilty of these scumbags by blaming society for their actions in any way, shape or form.


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## CoryKS

Unfortunately, they're too young to receive the death penalty that they so richly deserve.  I'll paraphrase a popular Marine saying: "Only God can judge these boys for their actions.  Our job is to arrange the meeting."


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## Steel Tiger

morph4me said:


> Society failed them?? Somehow society shares responsibilty for this?? I don't think so. Society is made up of individuals who make choices to live within the rules of that society or not. Please don't mitigate the responsiblilty of these scumbags by blaming society for their actions in any way, shape or form.


 
I was not saying that society failed them, I was saying that it has failed all of us in that these creatures have such a disturbing moral disposition.  Yes, a person may choose to live within the rules of society or not, and in that they are choosing between right and wrong in a broad sense.  The perpetrators of this act do not seem to have any idea just how bad it was.

I have no sympathy for these lowlives, and I would not seek to mitigate or justify what they have done.  But I think when we have crimes of this nature presented to us we need to ask ourselves why are there people who could do this?  Not for their benefits, but for our own.


----------



## morph4me

Steel Tiger said:


> I was not saying that society failed them, I was saying that it has failed all of us in that these creatures have such a disturbing moral disposition. Yes, a person may choose to live within the rules of society or not, and in that they are choosing between right and wrong in a broad sense. The perpetrators of this act do not seem to have any idea just how bad it was.
> 
> I have no sympathy for these lowlives, and I would not seek to mitigate or justify what they have done. But I think when we have crimes of this nature presented to us we need to ask ourselves why are there people who could do this? Not for their benefits, but for our own.


 
I misunderstood, I apologize, that's what I get for replying when I'm upset at a story and before I have my coffee :asian:


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## Steel Tiger

morph4me said:


> I misunderstood, I apologize, that's what I get for replying when I'm upset at a story and before I have my coffee :asian:


 
No problem.  

I think you have a good point.  I am just waiting for the bleeding hearts to start with the justifications and rationalisations.


----------



## Andy Moynihan

Since when do you have to _wait_? :barf:


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## grydth

Okay, for discussion sake let's put the so called bleeding hearts' position to the curb... and their socialist notions of American collective responsibility for crimes both domestic and foreign... those USA haters who justify anything from serial rapists to terrorist cannibals by bleating about what we must have done to make them hate us so much.....What's lost by focusing on them?

What we risk losing is an intelligent and dispassionate look at what may cause or aggravate _some_ crimes. If only in self defense, we should explore that. 

For example, one thing I noted were that the large majority of criminals I encountered came from broken homes. I am not blaming "society"; rather what I am saying is that certain *individual* 'parents', by not doing their jobs, are making the risk of criminal behavior increase. 

Another risk factor is abuse in the home or from 'family'... watch the behavior of so called 'parents' towards children in any major shopping area. What chance at life, what outlook towards themselves and others, will these children have?

If we found more ways of mentoring troubled kids, and fewer ways of making excuses for the ones who go wrong, just maybe the country would be safer. The evil and the answer isn't 'society'... it is will responsible individuals (like you sensei, like you teachers) continue to step up?


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## MJS

grydth said:


> Okay, for discussion sake let's put the so called bleeding hearts' position to the curb... and their socialist notions of American collective responsibility for crimes both domestic and foreign... those USA haters who justify anything from serial rapists to terrorist cannibals by bleating about what we must have done to make them hate us so much.....What's lost by focusing on them?
> 
> What we risk losing is an intelligent and dispassionate look at what may cause or aggravate _some_ crimes. If only in self defense, we should explore that.
> 
> For example, one thing I noted were that the large majority of criminals I encountered came from broken homes. I am not blaming "society"; rather what I am saying is that certain *individual* 'parents', by not doing their jobs, are making the risk of criminal behavior increase.
> 
> Another risk factor is abuse in the home or from 'family'... watch the behavior of so called 'parents' towards children in any major shopping area. What chance at life, what outlook towards themselves and others, will these children have?
> 
> If we found more ways of mentoring troubled kids, and fewer ways of making excuses for the ones who go wrong, just maybe the country would be safer. The evil and the answer isn't 'society'... it is will responsible individuals (like you sensei, like you teachers) continue to step up?


 
My Mom always says, "You learn what you live."   It all starts in the home IMO.  There is a good chance that many of these kids come from homes where there is one parent raising them.  One has to wonder where the parent(s) were when these young kids were out doing this.


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## terryl965

MJS said:


> My Mom always says, "You learn what you live." It all starts in the home IMO. There is a good chance that many of these kids come from homes where there is one parent raising them. One has to wonder where the parent(s) were when these young kids were out doing this.


 
Even though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all.


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## grydth

terryl965 said:


> Even though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all.



I hope I was clear that violent criminals should be held fully accountable for their actions - be that prison or death. 

However, without excusing those that do go wrong via a veneer of "society being to blame", I also believe we have responsibility *as individual citizens* to help troubled and disadvantaged people from ever turning down that evil and violent road. We should study the factors that cause, activate, encourage crime.... and do what we can to end them. 

Now, sometimes there may not be much anyone can do.... I think some individuals are simply monstrously evil by nature.... and will never change. All that can be done is to isolate or execute.


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## terryl965

grydth said:


> I hope I was clear that violent criminals should be held fully accountable for their actions - be that prison or death.
> 
> However, without excusing those that do go wrong via a veneer of "society being to blame", I also believe we have responsibility *as individual citizens* to help troubled and disadvantaged people from ever turning down that evil and violent road. We should study the factors that cause, activate, encourage crime.... and do what we can to end them.
> 
> Now, sometimes there may not be much anyone can do.... I think some individuals are simply monstrously evil by nature.... and will never change. All that can be done is to isolate or execute.


 
I do understand your point and can agree in some way but people there ages no better and differently knows right from wrong.


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## Father Greek

Hello All,

I would just like to weigh in on this topic. Having worked in the rape crisis field for the last 12 years, I feel that there is no punishment harsh enough for these despicable animals. This next observation is actually a question. What are we as individuals and as a society doing to prevent this from happening again?

I was once giving a talk to a local womans organization on rape awareness and avoidance. When I was done I asked for questions. One woman stood and asked this question: " What do we say  to our daughters about rape?". There was a mass shaking of heads in agreement with this question. I responded with a question of my own: " What do we tell our sons?".

While it is hard to work within the larger society, it is quite easy to work within our little socities of family, friends and if you are inclined church. Open, honest, and informed discussion is imperative for the future of our sons and daughters.

My soapbox has now collapsed. Thank you for reading.

Father Greek:soapbox:


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## Ceicei

When is it early enough to talk to our sons and daughters about that topic of rape and prevention?  We (as far as society goes) talk about preventing abduction and sex (typically when broached about teenage years), but how many actually will discuss the nitty gritty of possibilities of other scenarios besides abduction and casual sex?  I've seen some people go as far as discussing molestation.  This isn't the same thing...

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

Ceicei said:


> When is it early enough to talk to our sons and daughters about that topic of rape and prevention?  We (as far as society goes) talk about preventing abduction and sex (typically when broached about teenage years), but how many actually will discuss the nitty gritty of possibilities of other scenarios besides abduction and casual sex?  I've seen some people go as far as discussing molestation.  This isn't the same thing...
> 
> - Ceicei



I would think (knowing your kids ages) that just the basics for the girls as like "good-touch" vs "bad touch" if you haven't done that already. The boys are growing for sure and while it's a different thing for them they still need to understand that no will always mean no. 
I think it's never too early just finding "age appropriate" approach and reinforce each year ... at least you won't get the  "awww MOM! that's gross" when it comes time for the real serious talk.


----------



## Tez3

Why is blame being put on 'single parents'? What to you is a single parent? We've just had some newly single parents in our vicinity....mothers widowed by the Iraqi war, does this mean their children will grow up to be criminals? I know a great many single parents, male and female who are great parents with good values and ethics. How unfair to tar them with the same brush.


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## grydth

Disagree, but respectfully, Tez.

To the extent this is a "blame" assigning discussion, I believe every person has assigned primary blame right where it belongs: with the cannibals who committed these barbaric acts.

I would be a most unlikely suspect to "tar" single parents, as for years I was the single dad of 2 young girls myself... and my wife was the single mom of 2 boys... before we formed our "Brady Bunch". 

I do not, therefore, blame or tar the single parent trying their best, as I've been there, done that. However, I would most frequently blame the ABSENT parent - those types who take off on their families to have a good time. They are nothing in my book but primate versions of cowbirds. Know what those are? They lay their eggs in other birds' nests... and then take to the sky. Sound like anybody we all know?

It is not the war widows' faults at all, but what I am saying is that family/military/community/friends must give these brave parents a hand.


----------



## Tez3

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MJS* 

 
_My Mom always says, "You learn what you live." It all starts in the home IMO. There is a good chance that many of these kids come from homes where there is one parent raising them. One has to wonder where the parent(s) were when these young kids were out doing this._

Quote_Even though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all._UnQuote



It was these two posts that I was actually making my point about, sorry  I should have made it clearer. They come across as smug, judgemental and hurtful to single parents on this forum among others. It would have been better to say that these kids were brought up badly or come from a bad home environment rather than slag off single parents so sweepingly. It's simplistic to slag off single parents in this way.Evil is evil, many of the Nazis who perpetrated horrific acts of violence and cruelty came from two parent homes and were themselves "loving" family people.

There's a ray of hope here you know, the anger of good people! When we start shrugging off or ignoring these horrific things life will truly be cheap and not worth the effort. 

Cowbirds confused me then I thought we know them as cuckoos!


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## MJS

terryl965 said:


> Even though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all.


 
I agree.  I wasn't saying that was an excuse for their behavior, just that many times, in cases like this, you hear that one or both parents have a) been in and out of jail or b) one or both is still in jail.


----------



## MJS

Tez3 said:


> Why is blame being put on 'single parents'? What to you is a single parent? We've just had some newly single parents in our vicinity....mothers widowed by the Iraqi war, does this mean their children will grow up to be criminals? I know a great many single parents, male and female who are great parents with good values and ethics. How unfair to tar them with the same brush.


 
Nothing wrong with a single parent.  The difference lies, as a few have said, in the way the kids are raised.  Its one thing to lose a parent in a war, but I was referring more to a parent that is in jail.


----------



## MJS

Tez3 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *MJS*
> 
> 
> _My Mom always says, "You learn what you live." It all starts in the home IMO. There is a good chance that many of these kids come from homes where there is one parent raising them. One has to wonder where the parent(s) were when these young kids were out doing this._
> 
> Quote_Even though they may come from a one parent home they still should be held accountable for there action and in my eyes they deserve the death penelty and I'm really not for it at all._UnQuote
> 
> 
> 
> It was these two posts that I was actually making my point about, sorry I should have made it clearer. They come across as smug, judgemental and hurtful to single parents on this forum among others. It would have been better to say that these kids were brought up badly or come from a bad home environment rather than slag off single parents so sweepingly. It's simplistic to slag off single parents in this way.Evil is evil, many of the Nazis who perpetrated horrific acts of violence and cruelty came from two parent homes and were themselves "loving" family people.
> 
> There's a ray of hope here you know, the anger of good people! When we start shrugging off or ignoring these horrific things life will truly be cheap and not worth the effort.
> 
> Cowbirds confused me then I thought we know them as cuckoos!


 
Speaking for my post only..there was no smugness intended.  What I stated about learning what you live is fact.  If there is no discipline, control, guidance, etc. in the household, what do you think these kids are going to learn?  I already addressed the single parent comment in another post, so I wont repeat myself, but I'll further comment on the last part.  We're talking about some young kids here.  Why didnt the parent(s) of these kids know what they were doing? 9pm and the parent(s) didnt wonder what their kids were doing or where they were?  

And an FYI, my Mother was my primary care giver.  My Father, who I have disassociated myself with, was hardly around.  Not the greatest person by a long shot.  My Grandfather and step-father were in my life a hell of alot more.  In fact, although he never officially adopted me, whenever I introduce him to someone, I introduce him as my Father!  I didn't grow up a criminal and I credit that to them.  IMO, the Father figure plays a big part.  Turn on any talk show, where the feature is out of control teens, and many times, the question of the father comes into play.  In jail, has nothing to do with me anymore, left when I was pregnant are a few of the answers you will hear.  Additionally, the person thats usually with the out of control teen is none other than the Mother.  Hmm...must be something behind that. 

Mike


----------



## Tez3

I'm not sure how one maintains a debate when talk shows are used to prove a point! I come from a generation where most fathers were missing for at least five years during the Second World War so the lack of fathers argument is merely a cover for what is really wrong with our societies that we are seeing this horrific behaviour. There are a great many factors involved in horrific acts like these are taking place more and more often. In a way what you call the bleeding hearts are right, it may not be society's fault but it is our responsiblity.

Look at the politicians we have elected, what sort of role models are they? We have sleaze, adultery, corruption, lies from our leaders. The so called celebrity cult gives no leadership, drugs, greed and designer clothes being the order of the day. If you want money these days you don't work for it anymore you sue someone, or become a celebrity or drug dealer. And you think that merely having a father would solve all these problems?

Oh and if you'll forgive me for saying this but it's true, what those boys did is actually mild compares to what they can watch on DVD, anyone seen the "Saw" films or "Hostel"? These films are mainstream and revued in newspapers the same as Shrek and other family films. We appear to accept even condone violence now.


----------



## MJS

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure how one maintains a debate when talk shows are used to prove a point! I come from a generation where most fathers were missing for at least five years during the Second World War so the lack of fathers argument is merely a cover for what is really wrong with our societies that we are seeing this horrific behaviour. There are a great many factors involved in horrific acts like these are taking place more and more often. In a way what you call the bleeding hearts are right, it may not be society's fault but it is our responsiblity.
> 
> Look at the politicians we have elected, what sort of role models are they? We have sleaze, adultery, corruption, lies from our leaders. The so called celebrity cult gives no leadership, drugs, greed and designer clothes being the order of the day. If you want money these days you don't work for it anymore you sue someone, or become a celebrity or drug dealer. And you think that merely having a father would solve all these problems?


 
Tez, I'm not going to argue with you.  My comments were not intended to offend anyone.  I mentioned the talk show as an example, but what I said was the truth.  If you dont want to see it, thats fine.  You're harping on the comment I made, why I dont know.  There are many posts that I find offensive as well.  I chalk it up as an opinion and leave it at that!  

Bottom line is, these kids, whether they're raised by 1 parent or 2, are totally out of control and it all starts on how they're raised!  If there is no control or discipline, again, what are the kids going to learn?  Nothing IMO.  

Additionally, you seem to be confusing the difference between a parent that was killed in the war and someone who was not a part of the childs life, because  they left the mother or landed in jail.  Big difference there.


----------



## Tez3

MJS said:


> Tez, I'm not going to argue with you. My comments were not intended to offend anyone. I mentioned the talk show as an example, but what I said was the truth. If you dont want to see it, thats fine. You're harping on the comment I made, why I dont know. There are many posts that I find offensive as well. I chalk it up as an opinion and leave it at that!
> 
> Bottom line is, these kids, whether they're raised by 1 parent or 2, are totally out of control and it all starts on how they're raised! If there is no control or discipline, again, what are the kids going to learn? Nothing IMO.
> 
> Additionally, you seem to be confusing the difference between a parent that was killed in the war and someone who was not a part of the childs life, because they left the mother or landed in jail. Big difference there.


 

Perhaps I'm annoyed because you seem to bias your remarks against women. Yes you say the fathers are at fault for leaving ( and no I'm not confusing fathers killed with absent fathers) but you say these children are being brought up by women and it's because of that they are out of control. You are saying a woman needs to have a man to enable her to bring up children correctly. You may not see that's how it's come out in your posts but it has. It's a very old hoary argument. 

Children and adults are out of control for far more reasons that being from single parent homes. We are tolerating more and more 'bad' behaviour and as has been said children only do what they've been taught.


----------



## MA-Caver

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure how one maintains a debate when talk shows are used to prove a point! I come from a generation where most fathers were missing for at least five years during the Second World War so the lack of fathers argument is merely a cover for what is really wrong with our societies that we are seeing this horrific behaviour. There are a great many factors involved in horrific acts like these are taking place more and more often. In a way what you call the bleeding hearts are right, it may not be society's fault but it is our responsiblity.
> 
> Look at the politicians we have elected, what sort of role models are they? We have sleaze, adultery, corruption, lies from our leaders. The so called celebrity cult gives no leadership, drugs, greed and designer clothes being the order of the day. If you want money these days you don't work for it anymore you sue someone, or become a celebrity or drug dealer. And you think that merely having a father would solve all these problems?


Well, yeah look at Linsday Lohan.  (to the men: I meant look at her LIFE not HER  ). I feel that it's not a lack of a parent (male or female) but the role model that one or both parents presents to their child. Single fathers or single mothers, it's just the same thing. Their own values are reflected upon the children. Children live down here (the heart) everything they get and assimilate in to their growing lives they process there, later they start processing in the mind because they learn analytical skills and learn how to process incoming information. But for the first years of their lives they go by what they feel, and what they hear/see influences their feelings about things. We are emotional creatures first, then intellectuals. So when a child grows up in a less-than-nurturing home, less than ideal (by society standards) values, less than ideal environmental conditions (run-down, slum, vermin infected, crime ridden neighborhoods) then this affects the child way into it's teen aged and young adulthood. We're seeing it, we've BEEN seeing it on the news for generations. Yet this *is* where society fails. If a society doesn't take care of the infirmed, poor, disabled then their offsprings become a byproduct of that environment those people have to live in... (breeding has nothing to do with it Randolf!). A child has nothing else to go on except what their parents are feeling and if their parents are in despair then that's what the child gets and acts out.
But the above statements are not necessarily always true and I do not intend to make blanket statement that they ALWAYS apply to inner-city kids. Rich kids and middle class have their share of enacting violent crimes, but proportionally it is higher amongst the poor/lower classes. Likewise it's with any and every country on this planet. 
Yet still the parent, as I keep saying, has the *ultimate* (or majority of)   burden of responsibility for their child's behavior. If the parents don't care where their kids are because they're living in their own misery or if they're too busy trying to earnestly make a living to know or to keep an eye out for their kids... Likewise the parent's value systems is passed on to the child until the child learns otherwise and THEN the child (which grows up to be an adult) will make the choice to stay or stray from the values that they learned and/or develop their own sense of values. 


Tez3 said:


> Oh and if you'll forgive me for saying this but it's true, what those boys did is actually mild compares to what they can watch on DVD, anyone seen the "Saw" films or "Hostel"? These films are mainstream and revued in newspapers the same as Shrek and other family films. We appear to accept even condone violence now.


 A lot of people seem to make it easy to blame media for influencing violent behavior. I would have to "somewhat-disagree" with the sentiment. For reasons that violence in the mainstream media (and lets stick with movies for continuity of the present subject) has been around for a long time, even with the first films present. Think about the gangster flicks of Bogart, Robertson, Cagney and such of the 30's and 40's. Then you have the 50's and 60's films which had their own brand of violence in post war films and films like Blackboard Jungle and so on, then the 70's and 80's and on and on. Considering the content they were fairly violent for what the censors have allowed. Even now censors edit/cut quite a bit from a movie's content because of the scenes of violence. Yes, they are more gorier, more explict than before and it IS getting worse. But it always has been there and it has always been accepted. Why? Because it IS a part of our human/animal psyche. We are a violent race... humans. Yet the plus side is that we're also an intelligent reasoning race as well. We continually make the choice to attend or ignore violence on an individual basis. But it is there should we desire to delve into it. Why? Because it's a need we *all* have.  Thankfully it is a need that we have the ability to control... by choice. What makes our choices speaks of our (personal individual) values.


----------



## Sukerkin

Let's not de-rail ourselves, ladies and gents.  

A thread on one-parent families and their sociological impact would be an interesting one, no doubt (or at least a very argumentative one ) but, altho' related to the topic here, do you think it's potentailly a bit too disruptive for this thread?


----------



## MA-Caver

True, but we're looking into the causes of the atrocity we're discussing.... aren't we? 

I'm kinda growing tired of reading these type of threads and reading everyone's opinion about how the perps should be punished. Ok, I'm guilty as well (..."locked away in a deep dark hole forever...") but we do ourselves a service trying to figure out WHY these dammable things happen. As a society as a whole (not just geographically specific) planet we owe it to our species to find out how best to prevent these things from happening. But you can't stop what you don't understand.


----------



## MJS

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps I'm annoyed because you seem to bias your remarks against women. Yes you say the fathers are at fault for leaving ( and no I'm not confusing fathers killed with absent fathers) but you say these children are being brought up by women and it's because of that they are out of control. You are saying a woman needs to have a man to enable her to bring up children correctly. You may not see that's how it's come out in your posts but it has. It's a very old hoary argument.
> 
> Children and adults are out of control for far more reasons that being from single parent homes. We are tolerating more and more 'bad' behaviour and as has been said children only do what they've been taught.


 
I see that you're misreading what I'm saying, in addition to putting words into my mouth. I'm saying these kids are out of control because they're not being disciplined. Somehow you're twisting it to sound like I place the blame on the lack of control because they're being raised by a woman. Thats crazy. Did you read my post where I said I was raised by my Mother? Now, after reading that, I'm amazed how you can think what you posted!  

One of my wifes highschool friends has 2 kids. She is divorced and is raising these kids by herself. They are two of the cutest, well behavied kids that I've seen. She busts her *** working hard to support both herself and her daughters. Funny how these kids are not out of control, and I've seen these kids at their house as well as out in public. 

Interestingly enough, my wifes cousin is married with two kids. She has a boy and a girl, the girl is a few years younger than her brother. She is out of control. Again, I've been in their company in their house as well as in public. Father is present, mother is present, daughter out of control. There is no discipline in the house at all.

No matter how you try to twist my words Tez, it all comes down to how the kids are raised. Single parent, two parents...if they don't correct their child, what is the child going to learn? As I said, you learn what you live.

Mike


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## Tez3

This is going nowhere. I could do the 'you said, I said thing' but I really can't be bothered nor I do like being accused of 'twisting words', I replied to what I read, if you think that's wrong fine.

I wasn't blaming the media, I was pointing out that we are becoming more tolerant of extreme violence in films, television etc. 

There's more to the subject than just blaming parents for bringing up their children the 'wrong way'. MA Caver is right we have to understand the causes and then find the way to stop it. It's not merely lack of discipline, many children in the Balkans grew up with strict parents and an even stricter government and look at the massacres and atrocities that happened there. Generally in Europe children are brought up stricter than in the States where I believe you have had child experts for a lot longer than we have. Perhaps in the UK we have slightly different problems in that we have the welfare state so we don't have the grinding poverty that will always cause unrest and dissatisfaction. Our main problem is dissaffected youths who feel they are discriminated against and who rebel against their parents many of whom they resent for bringing them to the UK. West Indian mothers are known for their discipline yet their sons are still in prison, in gangs and are dying in fights.

Before the Second World War the rich in this country were very rich and the poor very poor, slums were rife, people were still dying of cholera, polio and TB. Children didn't have shoes, families packed into single rooms, the very worst kind of deprivation and poverty. However while crimes like theft etc were still rife, the violent type of random crime we are discussing was unheard of. So what changed? The slums were knocked down and council (public) housing estates were built everywhere, the NHS was formed, free medical care for everyone. More schools were opened and expectations became higher. Everyone wanted a car, a house, nice clothes and people were being promised more and more by governments, advertisers and businesses anxious for your money. Credit became easy to get so everyone began buying on the hire purchase schemes. Consumerism took hold instead of ethics and values, over here Maggie Thatcher and the 'greed is good' lot took over but it didn't work for everyone.To keep the consumer society going there was a cost, in this country it was unemployment, the closing of the coal mines, factories closing as they went to the Far East for cheaper labour.The government changed the schools curriculum to make it easier to pass exams  but the children learned that there was now nothing for them when they left school only the dole queue. The credit was now turning to debt, there was no hope of a job to pay anything off but people still expected to have everything they saw on the tele. They started thinking that society owed them a living and they owed nothing back in return. Political correctness crept in with subsequent governments, the police hamstrung.The ecomony has picked up there are jobs again but people don't want to take them now.They want the get rich quick route of apprearing on X factor and Big Brother type programmes. It's their *right *now to do this.

So now in the housing estates you have feral gangs, drug dealers who make more money than I will see in a lifetime and an indifference to other human beings. Casual violence is accepted, hell the governments do it, what's happening in Iraq, Afghanistan? We just drop loads on bombs on people, kill thousands of families, good example? Soldiers who we think should be the good guys as they're ours massacre villagers, men women and children. Police shoot down peace protesters, prisoners are held without trial in Cuba, politicians who lie and cheat, who have blood on their hands and the only thing anyone is interested about is *'what's in it for me mate'* You can champion capitalism as much as you like but it has a lot to answer for. The weak will always lose out.

  Ok rant over, I'm off to bed as I'm on early shift.


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## Mr. E

Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure how one maintains a debate when talk shows are used to prove a point! I come from a generation where most fathers were missing for at least five years during the Second World War so the lack of fathers argument is merely a cover for what is really wrong with our societies that we are seeing this horrific behaviour. There are a great many factors involved in horrific acts like these are taking place more and more often. In a way what you call the bleeding hearts are right, it may not be society's fault but it is our responsiblity.



I think that the single family situation is part of the iceburg above the water.

People get killed and their families are left to go on without them. People get sent off to war. And sometimes people do get divorced.

But if you read the news about America, there is a very large number of women that _never_ get married and have large number of children. Whenever you see a story about cases like this, it seems that the kids were raised by a mother with too many kids to mind them all.

It is kind of like the chicken and egg riddle. Are the kids bad because the mother had too many kids to keep them all in line, or are they bad because they were raised by a parent too stupid to realize that she should use birth control?

But yes, there are other factors involved.

One might be the perception of racism and how it is used as an excuse. There is another thread about how a man high on PCP was wandering around a (black) neighborhood with a gun and was shot by the police when he pointed it at them. As far as the neighbors are concerned, the police were in the wrong and were driven by racism.

It is my experience that people do not like to take responsibility for their failures and bad behavior. They find reason for why they were _forced_ to rob someone else or failed at life.

When other people are saying that they are being held down due to poverty and racism, I doubt they are going to disagree. 

There is racism in the world. I am a minority and know that. But to sit around and blame "The Man" for you not getting a good job does nothing and only makes you mean and bitter. And minorities have managed to make it in the world today. In America blacks who do well by mainstream means actually seem to be resented and attacked by others in the community.

So you have a community like this that is a real hell hole with an excuse as to why they do not have to take responsibility for their actions. Is that not a recipe for behavior like this?

I have seen poor places. Places far poorer than anyplace in North America. Places where people know folks who starve to death. They are safe and you can walk the streets at night. So when thugs with gold chains and teeth do a drive by shooting, I really do not see how you can blame poverty. 

And despite the worse racism that existed in America and elsewhere a century ago, black communities were no worse than white ones in terms of crime. Racism does not seem to be the cause.

But in the last few decades there has been a lot of voices raised in saying that because of racism, poverty and such that the society is to blame for these types of things going on. I maintain that if people are going to give that sort of excuse to the scum that are out there, you can't expect them to take responsibility for their actions and stop the madness.


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## Sukerkin

*Tez*, other than the opening gambit, that was a superb 'rant'.  

I think yourself and *MJS* have grabbed different ends of seperate sticks in your brief crossing of swords but the body of your post above had me going "Yep, agree with that." at every bullet point.

Take both a Golden Soapbox award and one barrow-load of kudos for wielding your hammer at several points at once :rei:.

In this country at least, what *Tez* posted above is an excellent definition of the problem.  I know that America will be very different so it would be interesting if anyone from that side of the Pond can give a similar dissertation on your 'take' on the subject.

Of course, _seeing_ the problem is only one half of the story ...

EDIT: *Mr. E* posted whilst I was typing.  You make a very strong point there, sir :tup:.  I feel likewise about the thuggery and Doley-Broods we have over here.  When a teenage girls easiest route to enough finance to 'get by' is to have umpteen kids by different fathers (none of which should stay contactable as that would mean they have to pay rather than the State) then it's no wonder we have some of the problems we do.  Especially as these 'kids for cash' one-parent families as now in their third generation or more.

I should point out, to avoid ire from certain quarters, that here I am most definitely not talking about those families who have lost one partner due to either tragic circumstances or that 'growing apart' that sometimes happens in relationships.  These are girls who set out to do this as a 'career' choice whilst the blokes who provide half the genome of the cash-child generally have 'Doley' or 'Drug Dealer' as their job description.

If I sound irate about it, that's because I am.  A lot of my hard earned cash goes to this particular bottomless pit by the way of taxes.  Following my bike accident, I was unemployed for a few years and because I had been self-employed I had a hard time of it from the Benefits Office.  I used to get the princely sum of about £40 a week to live on.  Now I have a job and pay taxes that are usually £400 to £500 a month.  Tell me there is equity there.


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## MJS

Tez3 said:


> This is going nowhere. I could do the 'you said, I said thing' but I really can't be bothered nor I do like being accused of 'twisting words', I replied to what I read, if you think that's wrong fine.


 
LOL, I have to laugh Tez3 because if you go back and read my early posts, I stated, "Single Parent" not mother or father.  It was YOU in post #44 where YOU assumed that I was talking about mothers vs. fathers.Hense, I stick to my selective reading and twisting comments.



> I wasn't blaming the media, I was pointing out that we are becoming more tolerant of extreme violence in films, television etc.


 
And if you turn on a soap opera in the afternoon, you'll see two people in bed.  Oh gee, maybe that was a poor example, once again, as I referred to television.  Fact is, unless we want to turn ourselves into hermits, and never leave our house, never read the paper or turn on the tv, sex, violence, etc., is out there.  Everyday last week, I picked up my daily paper and saw a shooting in the Capitol city of CT., which is Hartford.  Gang and drug violence is on the rise.  



> There's more to the subject than just blaming parents for bringing up their children the 'wrong way'. MA Caver is right we have to understand the causes and then find the way to stop it. It's not merely lack of discipline, many children in the Balkans grew up with strict parents and an even stricter government and look at the massacres and atrocities that happened there. Generally in Europe children are brought up stricter than in the States where I believe you have had child experts for a lot longer than we have. Perhaps in the UK we have slightly different problems in that we have the welfare state so we don't have the grinding poverty that will always cause unrest and dissatisfaction. Our main problem is dissaffected youths who feel they are discriminated against and who rebel against their parents many of whom they resent for bringing them to the UK. West Indian mothers are known for their discipline yet their sons are still in prison, in gangs and are dying in fights.


 
I think you hit the nail on the head with part of your statement.  Rather than get all huffy, did you stop to think that things are different due to the fact that we live in two different countries?  The part I disagree with is where you mentioned blaming the parents.  Who are you supposed to blame?  Lets not sugar coat things and blame someone else for a kids lack of discipline.  Its the parents #1 responsibility to raise and teach their kid(s) solid, decent values.  Apparently, certain parents are lacking in the department.  



> Before the Second World War the rich in this country were very rich and the poor very poor, slums were rife, people were still dying of cholera, polio and TB. Children didn't have shoes, families packed into single rooms, the very worst kind of deprivation and poverty. However while crimes like theft etc were still rife, the violent type of random crime we are discussing was unheard of. So what changed? The slums were knocked down and council (public) housing estates were built everywhere, the NHS was formed, free medical care for everyone. More schools were opened and expectations became higher. Everyone wanted a car, a house, nice clothes and people were being promised more and more by governments, advertisers and businesses anxious for your money. Credit became easy to get so everyone began buying on the hire purchase schemes. Consumerism took hold instead of ethics and values, over here Maggie Thatcher and the 'greed is good' lot took over but it didn't work for everyone.To keep the consumer society going there was a cost, in this country it was unemployment, the closing of the coal mines, factories closing as they went to the Far East for cheaper labour.The government changed the schools curriculum to make it easier to pass exams but the children learned that there was now nothing for them when they left school only the dole queue. The credit was now turning to debt, there was no hope of a job to pay anything off but people still expected to have everything they saw on the tele. They started thinking that society owed them a living and they owed nothing back in return. Political correctness crept in with subsequent governments, the police hamstrung.The ecomony has picked up there are jobs again but people don't want to take them now.They want the get rich quick route of apprearing on X factor and Big Brother type programmes. It's their *right *now to do this.
> 
> So now in the housing estates you have feral gangs, drug dealers who make more money than I will see in a lifetime and an indifference to other human beings. Casual violence is accepted, hell the governments do it, what's happening in Iraq, Afghanistan? We just drop loads on bombs on people, kill thousands of families, good example? Soldiers who we think should be the good guys as they're ours massacre villagers, men women and children. Police shoot down peace protesters, prisoners are held without trial in Cuba, politicians who lie and cheat, who have blood on their hands and the only thing anyone is interested about is *'what's in it for me mate'* You can champion capitalism as much as you like but it has a lot to answer for. The weak will always lose out.
> 
> Ok rant over, I'm off to bed as I'm on early shift.


 
Its not the governments fault people can't raise their kids Tez, its the parents.  

Mike


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## Drac

Time for the cop to make his statement....Single parent. dual parents..*NO DIFFERENCE..*How they were raised and discplined *ALL* *THE DIFFERENCE*..


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## MJS

Drac said:


> Time for the cop to make his statement....Single parent. dual parents..*NO DIFFERENCE..*How they were raised and discplined *ALL* *THE DIFFERENCE*..


 
True.  I gave 2 examples earlier, both my mother and my wifes friend.  My mother raised me and my wifes friend is raising her daughters.  Singling anyone out wasn't my intent, however, in both of these cases, we will see, that it was the male that left.  Regardless, both my mother and the other girl, raised their children with good values.  I was taught right from wrong.  Then again, maybe it was because my Grandfather was a cop, so even more re-enforcement.  

I'm sure that there are excellent single moms and dads out there.  I'm sure that there are some bad ones too.  Walk into any dept. store and you'll see kids running around.  Why are the parents not doing anything?  Rather than correct the bad behavior, they'll wait 'til the clothing rack falls on their kid and then sue the store.  If I even attempted to raise hell in a store, my mother gave me that look, and I knew if I didn't stop, I was in for it.


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## Drac

MJS said:


> I'm sure that there are excellent single moms and dads out there. I'm sure that there are some bad ones too. Walk into any dept. store and you'll see kids running around. Why are the parents not doing anything? Rather than correct the bad behavior, they'll wait 'til the clothing rack falls on their kid and then sue the store. If I even attempted to raise hell in a store, my mother gave me that look, and I knew if I didn't stop, I was in for it.


 
Yep...The look that paralized..There are *STILL* folks out there who believe you can no long discipline their children thanks to 696-KIDS...I've explained it this was to some parents..Giving your kid a swat across the butt to correct behavior problem is disciplne..Hitting 
them with a tire iron is abuse...


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## MJS

I started a new thread here to discuss the views on raising kids.  Before we sidetrack this thread anymore, lets reserve this discussion for comments on the attack.

Mike


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## MJS

Another update.  Not sure how long they'll be there, but there are some other related links on that page as well.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19852756/


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## MA-Caver

I love how the lawyer is earning his paycheck... (or houseboat payment) 


> Taylors lawyer, Chris Haddad, said his client maintains he is innocent. The indictment is not evidence of guilt, he said.



Life in prison just... isn't... quite... enough here. 

Ah well, that's the American Legal System for you.



> *How To Donate To Dunbar Village Victims*
> 
> UPDATED: 3:40 pm EDT July 12, 2007
> How To Donate To Dunbar Village Victims
> WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. -- Individuals who would like to donate money to the victims can go to any Wachovia Bank and donate to the St. Anns Victims Assistance Fund. Donations will go directly to the mother and her son.
> 
> St. Anns Catholic Church will also accept donations. Checks can be made payable to the "Dunbar Village Victim Assistance Fund - St. Anns".
> 
> Donations can be mailed to: St. Anns Catholic Church, 310 N. Olive Avenue, West Palm Beach, FL 33401
> http://www.wpbf.com/news/13671540/detail.html


Here's a photos of the animals. You'd never think they'd be capable just by looking at them.


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## grydth

Its always tough to reckon what somebody's capable of from looking at court photos.... especially when the accused are often coached and dressed by lawyers with exactly the intent of making jurors think... that he looks like too nice of a boy, he must be innocent...:angel:


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## MA-Caver

grydth said:


> Its always tough to reckon what somebody's capable of from looking at court photos.... especially when the accused are often coached and dressed by lawyers with exactly the intent of making jurors think... that he looks like too nice of a boy, he must be innocent...:angel:


Well that's the thing... at one time or another in (their) lives... they *were* good innocent boys. It'd be interesting to see where/when they went wrong.

But there are 7 more eluding justice out there... 7 more with the potential to do more harm. They, must be found.


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## grydth

I suspect they will be found sooner rather than later. Some may go via their own widespread boasting about this or other crimes (almost unbelievable, but in my own experience, quite true). I also suspect one of those in custody will want to cut a deal to avoid really hard time - he'll squeal on the others. There indeed is 'no honor among thieves'.


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