# Fitness & Fighting



## robertlk808 (Apr 10, 2010)

I found this informative \ inspiring blog that I think is worth sharing @

http://tgace.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/fitness-and-fighting/

Follow the link and check out some of his other posts.

Aloha
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Something I come across time and again in martial arts forums is the debate over the importance of physical fitness and conditioning in martial training.

Some of the arguments center on the technique vs muscle issue. This is the so an 80 yo person cant be a proficient martial artist if they are not training like a MMA fighter? tack. This person argues the use their strength against themits all about technique, not strengtha fight will be over in seconds conditioning and self-defense are separate disciplines party line. They believe that martial arts are more about leverage, target selection and technique than the individuals physical conditioning. You tend to see many traditional arts people in this camp, especially non-sparring arts.

In the other camp are the people who believe that a fit and strong person with martial training, perhaps not a technician, but with basic skills, will trump an out of shape fighter. Many people who think this practice the more sporting arts; MMA, Boxing, Thai etc.

Personally, I think that many of the people who poo-poo conditioning are perhaps looking to justify their lack of it. Or explain why they are not doing a conditioning program.  I think that its important for anybody who takes combative training seriously to be spending a significant portion of their training time on physical fitness. Yes, technique is important, but all physical activity will be faster, stronger and more efficient with a fitter body.

Granted, not all martial arts schools have the time or ability to condition their students AND train them in the art they practice. Some arts, simply based on what they do,  are a workout in themselves. But MANY arts do not present an opportunity for physical conditioning, as many practitioners stretching out the belly of their Gis can attest to. The martial arts as fitness sales gimmick is not always as advertised.

H2H fighting ability aside, I believe that fitness training is as much about developing mental toughness and fighting spirit as it is about the body. I wrote about this in a previous post called Embrace the Suck. If you are not pushing yourself past your limits in the dojo AND the gym, you are cheating yourself.

In addition, when it comes to the soldier, the LEO and anybody in a self-defense/survival scenario; there are MANY other physical tasks beyond fighting that need to be considered. Running from threats, chasing suspects, carrying packs, jumping fences, dragging/carrying wounded people and simply doing anything while wearing a ton of guns n gear require you to be physically fit. It also helps in avoiding injury while you are doing these things.

In closing, let me clarify that I AM NOT saying that if you are not as conditioned as a Olympic athlete that you are misguided in your training, but we can ALL focus on being as fit as we can for our age, our needs and our time allowed. Thats my opinion. Whats yours?


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## Malleus (Apr 10, 2010)

Agreed.

It is, of course, about balance. Little technique will leave you vulnerable to being expolited, as knowing how to fight is incredibly important. Something as simple as keeping a hand up while punching can make all the difference, and there's nearly an infinate number of such tips out there, present in varying amounts throughout the different systems.

Likewise, fitness is definately a factor. You can't deny it in professional fighting: the person with the greater fitness can go for longer and avoid becoming sloppy for longer. In a 'real' fight fitness may not be as much of an issue if your technique and speed are so stellar to make short work of someone, but I don't think it could hurt to train for it a bit more. 

My main point is this: fatigue will impair technique. Unless you can guarantee that the fight won't last more then a couple of seconds, your much vaunted technique will deteriorate significantly.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm not sure if the words used are yours or if you are quoting someone else's words; please consider using quotation marks.  I will respond as if those are your words.



> Personally, I think that many of the people who poo-poo conditioning are perhaps looking to justify their lack of it.



And I think perhaps many people who emphasize conditioning are embracing body image that includes low weight and physical attractiveness and not actual conditioning.  I perhaps think they're trying to justify their own vanity and dislike of fat people.

Physical fitness is not an objective term.  'Fitness' literally means 'suitable for a particular purpose'.  When we speak of 'physical fitness', many of us have different ideals and mental images of what we think of when we imagine a person who is 'physically fit'.

A person is 'fit for duty' if they can perform the functions required of that duty, regardless of what they personally look like or how good they look doing it; but when we think of 'physical fitness', nearly all of us summon to mind images of a person glowing with youth, good health, slim and muscular, and brimming with vigor.

Yet many of us associate terms describing things we do not particularly care for with being 'out of shape' or 'unfit'.  One example was the description you used where you defined unfitness as an unsightly bulging belly of a gi at the obi.  Others here have stated flat-out that they "don't like fat people."  And yet, does being overweight mean that a person is not physically fit?

If I were of the ideal weight for my height, but I could not run around the block, would I be physically fit?  I'd argue that I would not be physically fit.  However, I am overweight, and I can run for 40 minutes at an average speed of 5.5 to 6.0 mph without stopping to catch my breath.  How can that be?  Surely I'd run faster and further without this extra weight to carry around, but the fact is, I can carry it.  I am then physically fit because I can meet the minimum standards of fitness as described by many doctors, or am I still not physically fit because I do not meet a particular weight and height standard?

Likewise, *ideals of physical fitness typically don't take into account experience, strength, flexibility, or reflex speed.*  Surely when we are discussing self-defense, these attributes are also contributing to a person's 'fitness' to defend themselves?

Frankly, I don't put as much stock in objective standards of fitness as I once did.  I don't think they ever meant all that much, except as guidelines and goals.

For myself, I was a US Marine in my younger days.  I adhered to the USMC height and weight standards, and I ran every weekday at least 3 miles.  I ran my PFT of 3 miles in 24 minutes, 12 pullups, and 80 situps in 2 minutes, which was more than a passing score.  I marched dozens of miles at a time carrying all my gear on my back, as did my fellow Marines.  I was, by almost any definition you would care to use, physically fit.

Now I am crowding 50 years old.  Until last year, I had let myself get terribly fat (288 pounds) and out-of-shape.  I could not walk up three flights of stairs without getting winded, and I certainly could not have run around the block without stopping.  Not physically fit, and nearly certainly headed for various major medical problems.

I contracted diabetes, the symptoms of which carved 50 pounds off of me in two months.  By the time I was diagnosed and got my blood sugar under control, I was down to 235 pounds.  In addition to medication, I began a regimen of working out twice a week at the local gym in addition to going to the dojo twice a week.  I run on the treadmill or the elliptical machine for at least 40 minutes, and I lift weights.  At dojo, we do stretching and calisthenics for at least 30 minutes before we do karate.

My weight had edged back up to 250, which I am aware of and unhappy with.  I am working to bring it back down again.  But my goal weight is not based on some chart in a doctor's office now.  My goal is the weight I am happy with, nothing more.  I imagine myself at about 200 pounds.  That's 'overweight' for a man of 5' 10", but I truly do not care.  I can put my pulse rate at 165 for 30 minutes straight.  My blood pressure is 115/68.  My cholesterol has dropped so much, my doctor decided against putting me on any kind of cholesterol medication.  I just had an echo cardiogram and my heart is absolutely clear of any plaque, narrowing of arteries, or any kind of blockages.  My A1C is 6. I've got 100% full heart function; my doctor says my heart looks like that of a teenager.  I have very minimal decreased lung capacity from sarcoidosis (and perhaps from a decade of smoking, which I quit years ago).

Given all that, I'm pretty happy with my level of physical fitness.  You would not pick me out of a crowd as an athlete, but I fit the profile anyway.  You might not think I could defend myself to look at me, but after nearly 2 years of Isshin-Ryu karate, I think I can kick a little *** if need be.  I've got a lifetime of experience learning how people work; I can generally walk away from or defuse a situation before feeling I need to resort to violence.  I've got maturity enough to not fight over things that don't matter.  I've got intelligence enough to make judgments about my ability to avoid dangerous situations in the first place.  That may not be 'physical fitness', but I'd say it contributes well to 'mental fitness', wouldn't you?

I'm not as light as I'd like to be.  I do get winded and need to slow down on some of our more energetic workouts at the dojo.  I'm not as flexible as I'd like to be; my high kicks are nothing to write home about, and I have done myself an injury or two trying to achieve things I once could do easily.  I'm certainly not as fast as I'd like to be; my reflexes are slow compared to those of most people.

Some of these self-perceived shortcomings I can do something about, some I cannot.  But I am working on those that I can change, and I'm both patient and forgiving of myself, while not giving up on hard work and effort.

I won't be judged by a standard that does not apply to me, and probably never did.  Physically fit?  Yes, I am; by my standards.  I want to be more physically fit, but I am moving in that direction to the best of my ability and with the understanding that I'll never reach certain goals, and that's fine with me.

Physically fit?  Let's ask Roy "Big Country" Nelson.  He's 6' 0" and weights 265 pounds.  MMA record of 19 wins, 4 losses.  Look at that gut and tell me he's physically fit.  Now look at his results and tell me he isn't.


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## Archangel M (Apr 10, 2010)

But think of how better still Roy would be with better conditioning....

It's interesting how people respond to the issue of "fitness". Their response's tend to focus on their personal issues rather than on the issue itself. I don't see any reference to body image or attractiveness anywhere in the OP.

I focused on the last half of the OP:



> H2H fighting ability aside, I believe that fitness training is as much about developing &#8220;mental toughness&#8221; and &#8220;fighting spirit&#8221; as it is about the body. I wrote about this in a previous post called &#8220;Embrace the Suck&#8220;. If you are not pushing yourself past your limits in the dojo AND the gym, you are cheating yourself.
> 
> In addition, when it comes to the soldier, the LEO and anybody in a self-defense/survival scenario; there are MANY other physical tasks beyond fighting that need to be considered. Running from threats, chasing suspects, carrying packs, jumping fences, dragging/carrying wounded people and simply doing anything while wearing a ton of &#8220;guns n&#8217; gear&#8221; require you to be physically fit. It also helps in avoiding injury while you are doing these things.
> 
> In closing, let me clarify that I AM NOT saying that if you are not as conditioned as a Olympic athlete that you are misguided in your training, but we can ALL focus on being as fit as we can for our age, our needs and our time allowed. Thats my opinion. What&#8217;s yours?



I agree with that part. Fitness training to me is more about pushing my mental limits than it is about the "numbers". If I can finish a 4 mile run when my brain is trying to convince me to quit I think I have accomplished something even if the time I did it in was pathetic. Likewise I agree with the "big picture" issue of fitness. The benefits of fitness in non-martial arts activities outweighs its combative advantages IMO.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> But think of how better still Roy would be with better conditioning....



I never said he would not be better.  I questioned whether he fits the definition of 'physical fitness' and how that applies to his demonstrated ability to kick ***.



> It's interesting how people respond to the issue of "fitness". Their response's tend to focus on their personal issues rather than on the issue itself. I don't see any reference to body image or attractiveness anywhere in the OP.



Let me draw your attention to this statement, then:

_"But MANY arts do not present an opportunity for physical conditioning, *as many practitioners stretching out the belly of their Gis can attest to.*"_

As you say, it is 'interesting' how people reveal their biases.  What sounds on the surface like a logical discussion of fitness level reveals itself to be a biased dislike of fat people.



> I agree with that part. Fitness training to me is more about pushing my mental limits than it is about the "numbers". If I can finish a 4 mile run when my brain is trying to convince me to quit I think I have accomplished something even if the time I did it in was pathetic.



I agree with that too.  I think this:

1) Fitness is a complicated subject.  Fitness for what?

2) When discussing the ability to defend oneself from physical attack, 'fitness' becomes as much about training, ability, response time, flexibility, strength, determination, and mental toughness as about the ability to run a certain number of miles or lift a certain amount of weight or weight a particular amount.

Many body builders eschew cardio-vascular fitness.  Yet based on their BMI and strength, one would think them physically fit.  Based on their appearance, doubly so.  Many long-distance runners have incredibly poor upper-body strength; self-defense for some of them might be problematic; yet they would also fit the classic definition of physical fitness, and they too would have great BMI and who knows how flexible they are or what self-defense training they've had?

Barroom brawlers, based on my person experience of being knocked around by them, are dangerous individuals.  Big, hulking, drunk, typically smokers, probably could not run around the parking lot, but they can withstand punishment that would make others collapse in pain, disregard serious injuries, and deliver blows that crush ribs and break jaws.  And yet one would certainly not pick them out of a lineup as being physically fit.

Yes, fitness matters.  Yes, it's better to be fit than to not be fit.  Yes, fitness can positively impact one's ability to defend oneself.  But on the scale of importance with regard to self-defense, I would rate it lower than other requirements.


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## Archangel M (Apr 10, 2010)

I found another post on the blog the OP referenced.

http://tgace.wordpress.com/2010/01/02/embrace-the-suck/



> I&#8217;ve always believed that the real benefit of exercise is in the persons mental development rather than the physical results. Size, genetics and other issues outside ones immediate control will limit the physical advantages you can gain over an opponent through training. Where we all start out on a level playing field is between our ears. Intense exercise, the type that makes your internal dialogue start telling you &#8220;this sucks, I cant go on anymore, just slow down, just stop, just quit&#8221;&#8230;but you don&#8217;t&#8230;that type of exercise sows seeds that you will reap later when you are fighting for your life and are approaching exhaustion. When your opponent is approaching that same threshold the person who quits is going to loose and reaching that quitting point almost always originates from the mind. Hard exercise, the type that approximates the exertion of a fight will give you a &#8220;stress inoculation&#8221; that makes all your training effort worth the time.



Thats the thing I was talking about.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> I found another post on the blog the OP referenced.
> 
> http://tgace.wordpress.com/2010/01/02/embrace-the-suck/
> 
> Thats the thing I was talking about.



I absolutely agree with that part.  Some people have that inability to quit regardless of their fitness level, though.  They may have never been in a gym or on a treadmill.  They may have waded ashore through fields of fire or kept bending and shoveling coal because the wife and kid at home needed food on the table.  Know what I mean?

I would class that as mental fitness, not physical fitness.  It's the physical part that induces the pain threshold where one would say to themselves, _"I'm just going to stop now,"_ but it's the mental fitness that says _"******** on that, brother, you are going to take one more step."_

I quit smoking from two packs a day cold turkey.  Took two tries to do it, but when I stopped, I just stopped.  You may have no idea how hard it was, and what battles I fought in my head, but believe me, it was very similar to what I feel when I've been on the treadmill for 15+ minutes and I'm getting out of breath and my knee hurts and I think _"I could just stop now, this is good enough..."  _

So I don't necessarily tie mental toughness to physical conditioning.


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## Archangel M (Apr 10, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Let me draw your attention to this statement, then:
> 
> _"But MANY arts do not present an opportunity for physical conditioning, *as many practitioners stretching out the belly of their Gi&#8217;s can attest to.*"_
> 
> As you say, it is 'interesting' how people reveal their biases.  What sounds on the surface like a logical discussion of fitness level reveals itself to be a biased dislike of fat people.



I don't know if Im ready to jump to conclusions about the OP's opinions toward "fat people" based on that statement alone. I read it as an attempt to point out that martial arts schools are not fitness centers per se. If thats what he/she meant I can agree with that.


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## Archangel M (Apr 10, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> So I don't necessarily tie mental toughness to physical conditioning.



I think that physical conditioning is probably one of the best vehicles to *develop *mental toughness..personally.

And to be honest, if someone were to ask me what was the better choice for long term "survival" (in our society at least) I would suggest exercise over martial arts training. 

Perhaps I should take my own advice though.


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## robertlk808 (Apr 10, 2010)

Howzit Bill,
Ill consider using quotation marks but I thought it was already indicated that the information shared came from his blog.

Aloha,
Robert


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> i don't know if Im ready to jump to conclusions of the OP's opinions toward "fat people" based on that statement alone.



It's a descriptor that is visually-based.  It reveals inner thinking.  As I said eariler, I'm currently 5-10 and weigh 250.  When I tell people that I run twice a week for 40 minutes and do karate another 2x per week, guess what kind of looks I get?  Most of them have that _"sure you do fatboy"_ look in their eyes, even if they don't say it.  Our current culture has a visual bias that draws a mental picture of a person who is physically fit, and that person is slender.

Doctors know better.  My own doctor tells me to relax when I fret about my weight.  He says my echo cardiogram, EKG, cat scan of my chest, and my blood work tell me far more about my health, and my risk factors,  than my weight does.  He points out that weight is often seen as a risk factor in health issues BECAUSE it is so often tied with inactivity, sedentary lifestyle, poor eating habits, and so on.  In other words, it's an indicator, and often a reliable one.  But it leads to a bias in the thinking of people who are not doctors; if you see a fat person, they're not fit, they're not healthy.  The fact is that my fat, by itself, is benign; so long as my CV health remains good and my blood chemistry is excellent.  Past a certain age, even extremely obese people live as long, statistically, as slender people.  Being fat doesn't cause heart disease; it indicates a person who might have other factors that DO cause heart disease.

Simply put, being fat is not unhealthy.  It points to indicators that might be unhealthy (and generally are, based on the lack of exercise the general population gets).

That perception, though, leads people to make assumptions, which is precisely what the person who wrote the article did.  See the big belly in the gi?  Out of shape.  Yes, that's bias, even if it is subtle.  The same bias exists in the popular perception of beauty, although that is outside the scope of this discussion.



> I read it as an attempt to point out that martial arts schools are not fitness centers per se. If thats what he/she meant I can agree with that.



Recurring physical activity increases physical fitness levels.  Whether it is walking up stairs daily instead of taking the elevator or running three miles a day or working out 2x a week at the dojo.  It may not decrease weight or increase the physical appearance of fitness, because the person in question may simply eat more to compensate for the additional exertion.  I think it is quite correct for most dojos (certainly mine) to claim that they contribute to physical fitness.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2010)

robertlk808 said:


> Howzit Bill,
> Ill consider using quotation marks but I thought it was already indicated that the information shared came from his blog.
> 
> Aloha,
> Robert



There's a quote icon on the tool bar, you just highlight the words you cut-and-paste and then click on the quote icon.  Or you can use double quotes before and after the quote.

It's not so much that I could not puzzle it out, it's that it wasn't how people conventionally quote text.  I kind of thought it was a quote below your dotted line, but I wasn't sure you were not paraphrasing instead of quoting.


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## robertlk808 (Apr 10, 2010)

Sounds like a good idea Bill, thanks for the suggestion.

BTW Im 5'9 280, got you beat but I am working on slimming down to my personal preference of 220.

Aloha.


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## Archangel M (Apr 10, 2010)

Thats interesting. Two "big guys" with dramatically different views on the same article.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Thats interesting. Two "big guys" with dramatically different views on the same article.



I think a lot of it has to do with mental perceptions.

One person looks at themselves and says "_I am not physically fit because my body type and weight do not match a particular perception of fitness, regardless of my level of cardio-vascular fitness or heart-healthiness."_

Another looks at themselves and says _"I am physically fit because I can perform at a level that indicates cardio-vascular fitness and I am heart-healthy, regardless of my weight or physical appearance."_

We (me too) tend to judge others based on what we see on the surface, especially if we do not know them or their habits and capabilities.  Many of us tend to judge ourselves based on that same criteria.  I happen to have come to the conclusion that it's misleading.

With regard to self-defense, like I said about Big Country Nelson.  What counts is winning.  As you yourself said, a big part of that is mental determination not to quit.  Maybe Big Country has more mental capacity to reject the pain of his flabby body telling him to quit.  And maybe some of his opponents are sucked into the myth of believing he can't fight because he's fat.  Perhaps some of both.  But it's clear that his fat isn't getting in his way.


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## robertlk808 (Apr 10, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Thats interesting. Two "big guys" with dramatically different views on the same article.



Well this is what means the most to me..



> In closing, let me clarify that I AM NOT saying that if you are not as conditioned as a Olympic athlete that you are misguided in your training, _*but we can ALL focus on being as fit as we can for our age, our needs and our time allowed.*_



Before marriage and kids I had the luxury of time, I also worked as a Security Guard in Waikiki which allowed to exercise \ walk during on the job.  Now we have kids and very little time, I also work a desk job and look at alerts on a computer screen.  It takes a toll on your health if you let it and I did.  I train with guys that are older than I and are super fit. It keeps me inspired and I want to be able to enjoy other things like hiking with my children as they grow and I didn't post it to comment on others physical fitness. 

Aloha,
Robert


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## Carol (Apr 10, 2010)

I like Tom Gerace, we're linked on Facebook and he has given me props (or should I say "likes") in the past if I have blogged about physical activity.  It is definitely something he is passionate about.

But I do have to wonder...where are all these people that poo-poo conditioning?


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## Archangel M (Apr 10, 2010)

Don't take this as directed at you Bill or as an insult. But IMO people need to be careful that they are not simply justifying their fitness decisions (or lack thereof). It can be perceived as an excuse for the status-quo. You are engaged in fitness training so I don't think that you fall into that category. I think that the OP's last sentence is important.



> In closing, let me clarify that I AM NOT saying that if you are not as conditioned as a Olympic athlete that you are misguided in your training, but *we can ALL focus on being as fit as we can for our age, our needs and our time allowed.*



Thats the bottom line for me as well. Nobody is saying that all martial arts practitioners need to engage in a pro-MMA conditioning program. But they should be doing something.


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## robertlk808 (Apr 10, 2010)

@Carol - I recently discovered his blog and he some great stuff to share!


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## Archangel M (Apr 10, 2010)

LOL. Robert beat me to it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 10, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> Don't take this as directed at you Bill or as an insult. But IMO people need to be careful that they are not simply justifying their fitness decisions (or lack thereof). It can be perceived as an excuse for the status-quo. You are engaged in fitness training so I don't think that you fall into that category. I think that the OP's last sentence is important.
> 
> Thats the bottom line for me as well. Nobody is saying that all martial arts practitioners need to engage in a pro-MMA conditioning program. But they should be doing something.



But I don't want to be _'as fit as I can be given my circumstances'_.  I want to be _'as fit as I want to be_.'  The difference may be subtle, but I think it's important.  Life is about risks and rewardes, pleasure and pain, and mostly, about balance.  I choose the level of effort I will put forth to gain the results I most desire; but I will not neglect the enjoyment of my life for an extra lap in the pool or mile on the treadmill; nor will I be led or allow myself to feel guilty or bad or wrong about those choices.

I take it as a given that I will not be able to run as far, be as flexible, or fight as well as someone who devotes more time and effort to it.  I give a lot of my time towards this art because I want to; but I also stop when I want to and simply enjoy my life.  Might I lose a self-defense fight because I ate a doughnut or didn't run an extra mile?  Sure.  Risks and rewards, pleasure and pain, and in the end, balance.


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## robertlk808 (Apr 10, 2010)

Valid Points Bill, but the posting was never mean to chastise anyone, I just wanted to inspire.  I guess you could say I inspired some good dialogue.   

Aloha,
Robert


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