# The Side Parry



## KPM




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## Kung Fu Wang

Agree that the "side parry" (I'll call it *引(Yin) - Arm guiding)* is an important MA skill. If you can guide your opponent's leading arm elbow joint side way to jam his own back arm, for

- wrestling art, more than 80% of the throw can be executed there.
- striking art, your other hand can punch on your opponent's head.
- knife fight, your opponent's knife can't reach you.

IMO, in MA there are some techniques (or principles) that are more important. This one definitely is.


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## Martial D

I would like to see you pull some of that off at speed. I'm a little sceptical.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Martial D said:


> I would like to see you pull some of that off at speed. I'm a little sceptical.


If you ask in fist swinging environment, whether you will be able to use your hand to guide your opponent's punching arm side way, it happens all the time.


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## Martial D

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you ask whether in fist swinging environment, whether you will be able to use your hand to guide your opponent's punching arm side way, it happens all the time.


Yes but none of those people are standing in the pocket trying to side Parry a knife with another knife.


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## jobo

KPM said:


>


I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing you've never been in a knife fight, ?


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## KPM

jobo said:


> I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing you've never been in a knife fight, ?



That's kind of a stupid question.  Have you?   When someone talks about shooting do you ask if they've been in a gun fight?


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## KPM

Martial D said:


> Yes but none of those people are standing in the pocket trying to side Parry a knife with another knife.



Anything you do knife against knife is risky and you can sit back and second guess it until the cows come home.  I didn't make this up.  Its been part of using a big knife.  And no one said anyone would be "standing in the pocket."  Everything is dynamic and used when the opportunity presents itself.  If the opportunity isn't there....you do something else instead.  And I specifically stated in the video that this comes into play when you find yourself at middle range.  Its better to be further out so you can evade.  But that isn't always possible.


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## jobo

KPM said:


> That's kind of a stupid question.  Have you?   When someone talks about shooting do you ask if they've been in a gun fight?


Its not that stupid, it's blatantly obvious you haven't or you wouldn't  be doing what you are in that vid, and yes I have,
Find someone fairly fast, give him a plastic knife and tell him you giv him 10$ every time he stabs you whilst you try and catch the knife on yours, like you demonstraigh, you will be down a few grand in an hour


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## KPM

jobo said:


> Its not that stupid, it's blatantly obvious you haven't or you wouldn't  be doing what you are in that vid, and yes I have,
> Find someone fairly fast, give him a plastic knife and tell him you giv him 10$ every time he stabs you whilst you try and catch the knife on yours, like you demonstraigh, you will be down a few grand in an hour



And do you go to the Japanese Koryu forums and ask all of them if they have been in a sword fight?   Like I said, there is a time and place for everything.  You do things when the opportunity presents.  You don't set out to do them on purpose.  If YOU actually did any real knife training, you would realize that.


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> Its not that stupid, it's blatantly obvious you haven't or you wouldn't  be doing what you are in that vid, and yes I have,
> Find someone fairly fast, give him a plastic knife and tell him you giv him 10$ every time he stabs you whilst you try and catch the knife on yours, like you demonstraigh, you will be down a few grand in an hour



So what happened to your argument you had with me about teaching all the classical techniques,  regardless if they were relevant, because it is part of the art?
If the video was for educational purposes, surely you would cover all the bases and at a tempo that is viewable for the student?


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## KPM

You know, actually....I would take Jobo's challenge.   He is wrong.  Because what he described is essentially one of the progressive sparring drills we do.   You give one partner a knife as well as a bracer and glove and tell him all he can do are straight thrusts and backhand slashes.  You give the other partner a Bowie trainer and tell him all he can do is evade or use the side parry.  Then you go it!  This is a form of "hand sparring", and this is how you develop the side parry.   The side parry is essentially the same thing as a backhand backcut.  It just depends on what makes contact and where.  So yeah.....if Jobo wanted to square off with me and work that sparring drill, I'm damn sure I wouldn't be "down a few grand in an hour."   Because I've done that drll!


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> So what happened to your argument you had with me about teaching all the classical techniques,  regardless if they were relevant, because it is part of the art?
> If the video was for educational purposes, surely you would cover all the bases and at a tempo that is viewable for the student?


I think you mistaking me for someone else, but any way I'm pretty sure that Bowie knife training is  not a classical techneque


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> Its not that stupid, it's blatantly obvious you haven't or you wouldn't  be doing what you are in that vid, and yes I have,
> Find someone fairly fast, give him a plastic knife and tell him you giv him 10$ every time he stabs you whilst you try and catch the knife on yours, like you demonstraigh, you will be down a few grand in an hour


This is a common fallacy in discussing specific techniques. The idea is NOT to try to do this when someone tries to stab/cut. It's to use this when there's an opportunity and opening. It's not that different from those short parries in the videos KFW posted. Any of those parries would get you knocked out if you said, "Keep trying to punch me, and I'll be parrying like this." Yet they absolutely work, on a reliable basis, with a reasonable percentage of success.

Can you parry a knife? Yes. Can you do it on command? Probably not.


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## KPM

Gweilo said:


> So what happened to your argument you had with me about teaching all the classical techniques,  regardless if they were relevant, because it is part of the art?
> If the video was for educational purposes, surely you would cover all the bases and at a tempo that is viewable for the student?



Remember.....Jobo likes to argue just for the sake of arguing!


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## KPM

jobo said:


> I think you mistaking me for someone else, but any way I'm pretty sure that Bowie knife training is  not a classical techneque



But the side parry is a "classic" bowie knife technique.  I didn't just make it up.


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> This is a common fallacy in discussing specific techniques. The idea is NOT to try to do this when someone tries to stab/cut. It's to use this when there's an opportunity and opening. It's not that different from those short parries in the videos KFW posted. Any of those parries would get you knocked out if you said, "Keep trying to punch me, and I'll be parrying like this." Yet they absolutely work, on a reliable basis, with a reasonable percentage of success.
> 
> Can you parry a knife? Yes. Can you do it on command? Probably not.


Are you telling me that knife parry works reliably with a high% if success, ? If not I'm not sure what point your making, that doesn't end with a Bowie knife stuck in your chest,


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## jobo

KPM said:


> But the side parry is a "classic" bowie knife technique.  I didn't just make it up.


Well clearly someone just made it up


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> Well clearly someone just made it up


I know most people living in Manchester are grumpy, but may I suggest a change in diet, fish and rice or a big jar of prunes or something


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## jobo

KPM said:


> Remember.....Jobo likes to argue just for the sake of arguing!


You may as well post that vid on a how to commit suicied site, I mean your entitle to your own fantasy, but you really should not be spreading it around as a useful technique


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## Martial D

KPM said:


> Anything you do knife against knife is risky and you can sit back and second guess it until the cows come home.  I didn't make this up.  Its been part of using a big knife.  And no one said anyone would be "standing in the pocket."  Everything is dynamic and used when the opportunity presents itself.  If the opportunity isn't there....you do something else instead.  And I specifically stated in the video that this comes into play when you find yourself at middle range.  Its better to be further out so you can evade.  But that isn't always possible.


But the video shows you standing in the pocket doing knife parries in slow motion. I just wonder how many of those would be stopped at full speed, when you aren't aware exactly when it's coming.


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## jobo

KPM said:


> Anything you do knife against knife is risky and you can sit back and second guess it until the cows come home.  I didn't make this up.  Its been part of using a big knife.  And no one said anyone would be "standing in the pocket."  Everything is dynamic and used when the opportunity presents itself.  If the opportunity isn't there....you do something else instead.  And I specifically stated in the video that this comes into play when you find yourself at middle range.  Its better to be further out so you can evade.  But that isn't always possible.


yes it is, people tend to die in a knife fight, which is why any training you do has to be based on some reality.

this is what a knife fight looks like, it's a game of speed, , you'll notice that no one is standing there like a wardrobe try ingto parry,  because you will end up dead


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## jobo

jobo said:


> yes it is, people tend to die in a knife fight, which is why any training you do has to be based on some reality.
> 
> this is what a knife fight looks like, it's a game of speed, , you'll notice that no one is standing there like a wardrobe try ingto parry,  because you will end up dead



you'll also notice the looser got stabed 3 times in 30 seconds, that's30$ right there and anothe 59 and a half mins to go,


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> you'll also notice the looser got stabed 6 times in 30 seconds, that's 60$ right there and anothe 59 and a half mins to go,



I have heard you talk of reality in training a few times, and a lot of the time you are correct, the 2 gentleman in your video have obviously trained for a while, if you bring knife drills into class at that speed, you will get chaos, it will look like a muppet movie gone wrong, and the students would have learn't jack.


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## Christopher Adamchek

I agree with most of the comments on this not working very well.  However this technique concept becomes much more usable with an increase in blade length such as a machete.  I have used similar techniques side parry at decently high speed while sparring with machete.


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> I have heard you talk of reality in training a few times, and a lot of the time you are correct, the 2 gentleman in your video have obviously trained for a while, if you bring knife drills into class at that speed, you will get chaos, it will look like a muppet movie gone wrong, and the students would have learn't jack.


well if they learn that the fastest one tends to win, , and that people don't do attacks like a tennis backhand, then that in it's self might be enough to keep them alive,


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## jobo

Christopher Adamchek said:


> I agree with most of the comments on this not working very well.  However this technique concept becomes much more usable with an increase in blade length such as a machete.  I have used similar techniques side parry at decently high speed while sparring with machete.


.

maybe, it most certainly a technique will could work with a long blade designed to slash, then it's traveling a long way, but to try and make it work, they have people slashing from unnatural positions, instead of trying to stick you with the pointy end, or knifes are just faster th swords to manipulate


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> well if they learn that the fastest one tends to win, , and that people don't do attacks like a tennis backhand, then that in it's self might be enough to keep them alive,


Jobo tactic coming here, my guess is you don't teach, or if you do, you have a high turn over of students, hey new boy, your in, this blue belt and you are gonna knife fight, forget techniques just be real fast.


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Jobo tactic coming here, my guess is you don't teach, or if you do, you have a high turn over of students, hey new boy, your in, this blue belt and you are gonna knife fight, forget techniques just be real fast.


well yes really, if you haven't got the whole body speed, you r techniques are useless and that's not counting techniques like the parry, which are useless to begin with. 

really if you want to knife fight , play tag, it's the same game, but with much less consequences


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> well yes really, if you haven't got the whole body speed, you r techniques are useless


 For an experienced MA, I would agree, but for students no, technique before speed, if you watch his video again, you will see it is for educational purposes. 
And to dismiss the parry as a useless technique, you have lost the plot. FMA, JMA, CMA, all use them


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> For an experienced MA, I would agree, but for students no, technique before speed, if you watch his video again, you will see it is for educational purposes.
> And to dismiss the parry as a useless technique, you have lost the plot. FMA, JMA, CMA, all use them


but it's those " experience knife fighters in that vid didn't, and are you really putting forward a point that if it's in CMA it MUST work?  really.

if it's completely useless to the pint of getting you killed, does it really come under the heading of educational, rather than just dam right dangerous.

the only " techniques that matters is keep the pointy end pointing towards your opponent andbeing fast enough to hit your opponent before they hit you, that's it, if your incapable of developing that speed and co ordination, then you are wasting your time and should practise running instead


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## Gweilo

You are just trying to get the most posts in a month award arn't you


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> You are just trying to get the most posts in a month award arn't you


no I've tried, it's impossible to beat Gerry unless he goes on Holliday to somewhere with no internet connection.


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> Are you telling me that knife parry works reliably with a high% if success, ? If not I'm not sure what point your making, that doesn't end with a Bowie knife stuck in your chest,


In the right situation, it's reasonable. As for high %, that depends how you view that term. I doubt there's much that's 90%+ in dealing with a knife. And I also doubt there's much that's even relatively high % unless it's well trained.


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## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> But the video shows you standing in the pocket doing knife parries in slow motion. I just wonder how many of those would be stopped at full speed, when you aren't aware exactly when it's coming.


I suspect the slow motion goes with staying in the pocket - or rather, the other way around. In order to be able to make the technique simpler to view/easier to practice, it's done with a regulated environment that allows standing in the pocket. The same happens in every art/style/system I've seen, at the beginning level of most techniques. Watch the first intro of a single-leg, and it's never as chaotic as an actual match. It's also more static, less resisted, and slower. This is the same principle.


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> yes it is, people tend to die in a knife fight, which is why any training you do has to be based on some reality.
> 
> this is what a knife fight looks like, it's a game of speed, , you'll notice that no one is standing there like a wardrobe try ingto parry,  because you will end up dead


That's closer to the dynamic. The Bowie knife is a bigger knife, so some of what's possible with it is more akin to sword work. If someone is coming in charging hard (like the winner in that video), I'm guessing there's less opportunity to parry. Probably more chance to parry the loser's approach, but that's a guess.


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> no I've tried, it's impossible to beat Gerry unless he goes on Holliday to somewhere with no internet connection.


Sad, but true.


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## KPM

Martial D said:


> But the video shows you standing in the pocket doing knife parries in slow motion. I just wonder how many of those would be stopped at full speed, when you aren't aware exactly when it's coming.



Its an instructional video!  What do you expect?  There isn't room to move around much when we have to stay inside due to the weather.   And again....see my post on the sparring drill to develop the side parry.  How is this so different than blocking a punch with a Pak Sau when you aren't aware exactly when it's coming?


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## KPM

jobo said:


> yes it is, people tend to die in a knife fight, which is why any training you do has to be based on some reality.
> 
> this is what a knife fight looks like, it's a game of speed, , you'll notice that no one is standing there like a wardrobe try ingto parry,  because you will end up dead



And that is a sparring match, not an instructional video.  You have to first learn something, practice it, and develop it if you want to have any hope of using it in that kind of scenario.  Don't you even understand the basics of how martial art training works???


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## KPM

Christopher Adamchek said:


> I agree with most of the comments on this not working very well.  However this technique concept becomes much more usable with an increase in blade length such as a machete.  I have used similar techniques side parry at decently high speed while sparring with machete.



True.  And I am using a Bowie Trainer with a 10 inch blade.  But the side parry is not going to work with a blade any less than about 8 inches long.  Maybe Jobo is picturing something much shorter and simply doesn't understand Bowie Knives.


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## KPM

Gweilo said:


> You are just trying to get the most posts in a month award arn't you



Again....arguing just for the sake of arguing!


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## KPM

Just found this.  Not so different than what I was showing.


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## Martial D

KPM said:


> Its an instructional video!  What do you expect?  There isn't room to move around much when we have to stay inside due to the weather.   And again....see my post on the sparring drill to develop the side parry.  How is this so different than blocking a punch with a Pak Sau when you aren't aware exactly when it's coming?


It's different because a punch can't kill you in a single hit. At least, it's very unlikely.

If it could, you would see people staying at extreme range, all the time, entering only long enough to strike and retreat back.

Playing pattycake with a 10 inch blade seems suicidal to me.


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## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> I suspect the slow motion goes with staying in the pocket - or rather, the other way around. In order to be able to make the technique simpler to view/easier to practice, it's done with a regulated environment that allows standing in the pocket. The same happens in every art/style/system I've seen, at the beginning level of most techniques. Watch the first intro of a single-leg, and it's never as chaotic as an actual match. It's also more static, less resisted, and slower. This is the same principle.


I'll give you that it is the same principle. Where I would diverge them is that in your single leg example you might just survive trying it in a situation where the other guy has bad intentions.


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## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> I'll give you that it is the same principle. Where I would diverge them is that in your single leg example you might just survive trying it in a situation where the other guy has bad intentions.


Fencers parry swords. This is the same principle, applied differently because of the nature of the weapon.


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## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> Fencers parry swords. This is the same principle, applied differently because of the nature of the weapon.


Ya, I get that's the theory.


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## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> Can you do it on command? Probably not.


I can't do anything on command.  The one thing you never see from me is talking about the technique I'm going to do before I do it, and then have my sparring partner waiting form me to do it.   If I want to do something on command then it's more like.  "*Today I'm going to show you how to punch to the face*."  Then get with my sparring partner and kick him in his nuts.  Then I would follow up with "*Today's lesson is that I can change my mind on what to show you, so as I have skillfully demonstrated, the effectiveness of being kicked in groin, end of lesson*"

I wish I was skilled enough to where I could call stuff out on command and pull it off.  That would be the true definition of unstoppable.


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## Kung Fu Wang

jobo said:


> if you haven't got the whole body speed, you r techniques are useless


How to develop your MA skill?

You go to

1. elementary school and beat up all those kids.
2. junior high and beat up all those boys.
3. senior high and beat up all those young guys.

1 -> 2 -> 3. You will need to develop your skill from easy to difficult.

The 1st girl that you ever date in your life time should not be pretty. If a pretty girl turns you down during your 1st date, you will have that dark shadow in your head for the rest of your life.

It's very important to "start easy".


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> Any of those parries would get you knocked out if you said, "Keep trying to punch me, and I'll be parrying like this."


The parry, hay-maker, and hook punch are very similar.

In my last class, we worked on circular punches (such as hay-maker, hook punch, parry) against straight punches (such as jab, cross). In 2 minutes match, one guy only used straight punches while the other guy only used circular punches. It is interested to find out the person who uses circular punches will have advantage. The reason is simple,

- The circular punches can be used for both offense and defense (knock down opponent's straight punches).
- The straight punches can only be used as offense. It has no defense ability.

If you use spear to make circles in front of you, your opponent's spear cannot stab through.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How to develop your MA skill?
> 
> You go to
> 
> 1. elementary school and beat up all those kids.
> 2. junior high and beat up all those boys.
> 3. senior high and beat up all those young guys.
> 
> 1 -> 2 -> 3. You will need to develop your skill from easy to difficult.
> 
> The 1st girl that you ever date in your life time should not be pretty. If a pretty girl turns you down during your 1st date, you will have that dark shadow in your head for the rest of your life.
> 
> It's very important to "start easy".


Pretty sure you'll get arrested before you get to step 2...


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## KPM

Martial D said:


> It's different because a punch can't kill you in a single hit. At least, it's very unlikely.
> 
> If it could, you would see people staying at extreme range, all the time, entering only long enough to strike and retreat back.
> 
> Playing pattycake with a 10 inch blade seems suicidal to me.



Well, I guess that means you should stick to empty-hand and never train weapons!


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## JowGaWolf

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The 1st girl that you ever date in your life time should not be pretty. If a pretty girl turns you down during your 1st date, you will have that dark shadow in your head for the rest of your life.


And if an ugly girl turns you down then you go commit suicide lol.   I rather be turned down by a pretty girl than an ugly one.  At least I can lie to myself about why the pretty girl turned me down (she stuck up, not the right one for me, she's not all that).  lol. I can get a good bit of denial to help me get through it.

If an ugly girl turns me down then I'm going to have a difficult time getting that denial thing working lol.


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## Martial D

KPM said:


> Well, I guess that means you should stick to empty-hand and never train weapons!


On the contrary, I've trained in a lot of weapons. I just think what you are demonstrating here would be likely to get you killed if you tried it against a similarly armed opponent with bad intentions.  You would never get close enough, unless he too had a death wish.


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## Gweilo

Martial D said:


> On the contrary, I've trained in a lot of weapons. I just think what you are demonstrating here would be likely to get you killed if you tried it against a similarly armed opponent with bad intentions.  You would never get close enough, unless he too had a death wish.


I recently asked someone, about their success over the years in training MA, this person has trained 100's of 1st Dan and beyond, I asked about how he could train so many to a high quality, when every student was unique.
It was a long email, about breaking skills down to their basic elements, build the students knowledge, confidence, and the rest will come, he works on a principle with I think is poiniant here, and have copied and pasted below.

Often, especially as a teacher, you need to put yourself in the position to grow. it is hard to maintain continual growth on your own. A mentor is vital. Someone who can give you a gem that you can work on for the coming months, until it is time to go and drink from the well once again.


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## KPM

Martial D said:


> On the contrary, I've trained in a lot of weapons. I just think what you are demonstrating here would be likely to get you killed if you tried it against a similarly armed opponent with bad intentions.  You would never get close enough, unless he too had a death wish.



No.  You obviously don't know what you are talking about and have never really trained weapons.  Swordsman do something similar to this all the time.  FMA guys training with long blades do something similar to this all the time.  You can even so something similar to this with Wing Chun Butterfly knives.  So I really don't think you have "trained in a lot of weapons" if you think "you would never get close enough."  Because you have to get at least this close to even land a strike!  Unless you are throwing your weapon at the opponent!     Again, because I showed this in an instructional format where we are standing relatively stationary, you seem to have concluded that I would just be standing there waiting to do the technique.  This is not true.  Like I have already pointed out...things like this are done when the opportunity presents itself.  You are moving around dynamically adjusting distance/range, and when the distance is right as your opponent tries to land a sudden thrust or backhand strike you meet it with the side parry....which is really essentially the same thing as a backhand backcut.  So ideally you would be cutting his forearm or hand as you keep his strike from landing.  And you would typically be angling out of the way as you do so.  If you are far enough out that you can't easily reach his forearm or hand, then you end up with blade on blade contact.....which, when you have a 10 inch blade on a Bowie knife, is not at all unreasonable or difficult to do.  A big Bowie Knife is essentially a short sword.

And if you think you can always stay at a distance during a real fight with weapons and will never end up closing with the opponent...again, you obviously haven't done much serious weapons training!  

And I will also point out that the side parry is a pretty basic and instinctive response.  Give a beginner a stick and throw a blow at him.  If his hands are down and the stick is to the left of his center, he will very likely do an outward sweeping motion to try and keep from getting hit. 

So really, to come here and see people questioning the utility of this very basic and instinctive motion makes me really question the knowledge and experience of weapons of the people doing the questioning.  No offense intended.  It just kind of surprises me.


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## Gweilo

Found this video of Dan Inosanto,  doing a demo on knife and stick work, after the initial introduction, look at the pace of his demonstration. Or are some of you saying Mr Inosanto is not teaching at the right speed


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## KPM

^^^^^  And check out the 1:11 mark....that's essentially a side parry!


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## Gweilo

Also found this of legendary grand master Crispulo Atillo,  although most of it is at speed, they start slow on the weapons, and he is also using the side parry.


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## Gweilo

Also copied and pasted the following which is a quote from an interview with Emanuel Steward
. 
*Parrying* is a superior defensive move to *blocking* because it offers more protection while creating better counter opportunities using your opponent's energy. ... *Blocking*still absorbs partial damage whereas *parrying* can deflect the attack away entirely.


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## jobo

KPM said:


> And that is a sparring match, not an instructional video.  You have to first learn something, practice it, and develop it if you want to have any hope of using it in that kind of scenario.  Don't you even understand the basics of how martial art training works???


I'm not sure what your definition of instructional, teaching someone to cross the road in a manner that's odds on to get them killed, is indeed instruction, just not very good instruction, 

but let's anylize the vid, people are not going to try and stab you with a tennis backhand, he is only in range to hit your outhekd knife, other wise the arc would miss e you, if he was indeed to attack you in that manner and was not the perfect distance , youve set up, then he would stab you in the shoulder and not come anywhere near you knife,  and most bizarre in that position he is wide open, you could just stab him in the shoulder and move out if range


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Also found this of legendary grand master Crispulo Atillo,  although most of it is at speed, they start slow on the weapons, and he is also using the side parry.


there at least three time in the sword fight were the legendary grand master would lose a hand if those swordss were real, I mean really he is blocking a sword with his arm, comedy gold. no wonder he is a legend,


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## jobo

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How to develop your MA skill?
> 
> You go to
> 
> 1. elementary school and beat up all those kids.
> 2. junior high and beat up all those boys.
> 3. senior high and beat up all those young guys.
> 
> 1 -> 2 -> 3. You will need to develop your skill from easy to difficult.
> 
> The 1st girl that you ever date in your life time should not be pretty. If a pretty girl turns you down during your 1st date, you will have that dark shadow in your head for the rest of your life.
> 
> It's very important to "start easy".


well that my route, but your not fighting easy, if your fighting another 7 to then it's just as difficult as fighting another 30 when your 30,


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> there at least three time in the sword fight were the legendary grand master would lose a hand if those swordss were real, I mean really he is blocking a sword with his arm, comedy gold. no wonder he is a legend,


It must be difficult for you, to chat to us no idea 3rd Dans, old and wise 16th Dan grand master Jobo


----------



## jobo

Gweilo said:


> It must be difficult for you, to chat to us no idea 3rd Dans, old and wise 16th Dan grand master Jobo


You seem to have spent a big chunk of your life learning fantasy martial arts, it not surprising that you buy in to any fantasy that comes your way, and there's no bigger fantasy than silly old men doing demonstration against a tame opponent,  I see your havent denied, his remarkable ability to block a sword with his fore arm, ? Just deflexted to attack the truth teller, all very cultish


----------



## KPM

jobo said:


> I'm not sure what your definition of instructional, teaching someone to cross the road in a manner that's odds on to get them killed, is indeed instruction, just not very good instruction,
> 
> but let's anylize the vid, people are not going to try and stab you with a tennis backhand, he is only in range to hit your outhekd knife, other wise the arc would miss e you, if he was indeed to attack you in that manner and was not the perfect distance , youve set up, then he would stab you in the shoulder and not come anywhere near you knife,  and most bizarre in that position he is wide open, you could just stab him in the shoulder and move out if range



You CLEARLY don't understand what is happening and don't know what you are talking about.  You seem, again, to be trying to argue about something for argument's sake alone.  I'm not playing that game.   If you  want to provide a video showing how wrong I am and how you would do it correctly, please feel free!


----------



## jobo

KPM said:


> You CLEARLY don't understand what is happening and don't know what you are talking about.  You seem, again, to be trying to argue about something for argument's sake alone.  I'm not playing that game.   If you  want to provide a video showing how wrong I am and how you would do it correctly, please feel free!


I've already provided such a vid, 

What your doing has no bearing on reality, or if you have an opponent out of range doing a totally understand natraln movement, and moving in slow motion anything can be made to work, show a vid if you doing this in real time against someone who is actually trying to stab you


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> I've already provided such a vid,
> 
> What your doing has no bearing on reality, or if you have an opponent out of range doing a totally understand natraln movement, and moving in slow motion anything can be made to work, show a vid if you doing this in real time against someone who is actually trying to stab you


That's a strawman. Nobody - including KPM - has suggested that what you see in that introductory exercise is how it looks in application. If fact, he has said more than once that it isn't. Again, this is not much different from how techniques are taught elsewhere. You don't first teach a jab against a moving target who's trying to hit you. You don't first teach a double-leg against an opponent who sprawls. All are done either static (jab either in the air or to a bag or other non-dodging target) or cooperatively (guy assumes a position and waits for the double-leg).

What you're complaining about is, as I've said, a strawman. Your argument implicitly claims this is the entirety of the training for this technique.

(From Google's dictionary search: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument")


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> That's a strawman. Nobody - including KPM - has suggested that what you see in that introductory exercise is how it looks in application. If fact, he has said more than once that it isn't. Again, this is not much different from how techniques are taught elsewhere. You don't first teach a jab against a moving target who's trying to hit you. You don't first teach a double-leg against an opponent who sprawls. All are done either static (jab either in the air or to a bag or other non-dodging target) or cooperatively (guy assumes a position and waits for the double-leg).
> 
> What you're complaining about is, as I've said, a strawman. Your argument implicitly claims this is the entirety of the training for this technique.
> 
> (From Google's dictionary search: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument")


No it's not a straw man, my position is that is not a valid technique, in any circumstance , further nire that putting out ibstructionai Vids of how to knife fight based on a non valid technique is reckless,


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> No it's not a straw man, my position is that is not a valid technique, in any circumstance , further nire that putting out ibstructionai Vids of how to knife fight based on a non valid technique is reckless,


Then you keep mis-stating your own position. You repeatedly make a point that the problem with the technique involves the speed, lack of movement, and distancing used in the starter exercise. If those aren't the problem, maybe stop bringing up points about the starting exercise and focus on what you really mean?


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## Martial D

KPM said:


> No.  You obviously don't know what you are talking about and have never really trained weapons.  Swordsman do something similar to this all the time.  FMA guys training with long blades do something similar to this all the time.  You can even so something similar to this with Wing Chun Butterfly knives.  So I really don't think you have "trained in a lot of weapons" if you think "you would never get close enough."  Because you have to get at least this close to even land a strike!  Unless you are throwing your weapon at the opponent!     Again, because I showed this in an instructional format where we are standing relatively stationary, you seem to have concluded that I would just be standing there waiting to do the technique.  This is not true.  Like I have already pointed out...things like this are done when the opportunity presents itself.  You are moving around dynamically adjusting distance/range, and when the distance is right as your opponent tries to land a sudden thrust or backhand strike you meet it with the side parry....which is really essentially the same thing as a backhand backcut.  So ideally you would be cutting his forearm or hand as you keep his strike from landing.  And you would typically be angling out of the way as you do so.  If you are far enough out that you can't easily reach his forearm or hand, then you end up with blade on blade contact.....which, when you have a 10 inch blade on a Bowie knife, is not at all unreasonable or difficult to do.  A big Bowie Knife is essentially a short sword.
> 
> And if you think you can always stay at a distance during a real fight with weapons and will never end up closing with the opponent...again, you obviously haven't done much serious weapons training!
> 
> And I will also point out that the side parry is a pretty basic and instinctive response.  Give a beginner a stick and throw a blow at him.  If his hands are down and the stick is to the left of his center, he will very likely do an outward sweeping motion to try and keep from getting hit.
> 
> So really, to come here and see people questioning the utility of this very basic and instinctive motion makes me really question the knowledge and experience of weapons of the people doing the questioning.  No offense intended.  It just kind of surprises me.


Hey man no need to get salty. I actually like a lot of the stuff you do.

The thing is, a healthy dose of skepticism is required of those that don't want to fall into the bullshido trap. So yes, when I see things that look to be a little suspect(such as playing Errol Flynn at close range with short blades), I might require a little evidence before swallowing it whole, especially when it runs contrary to what my own experience tells me.

You used the example of Dan inosanto/escrima. Have you ever heard of Dog Brothers? They do full contact fma stuff and its pretty brutal and visceral stuff. They get hit constantly and quickly, and it's all pretty much a blur. There's very little parrying, and the rounds are fast..and these are dudes that actually train at speed for competition.

And it's much easier to block with two sticks as long as your arm than it is to block with a single blade less than half that length, against an blade that's also less than half the size of a stick, coming on a much tighter arc or thrust.

Are you really that fast? I'm sure not.


I would say if you can actually get close enough where he can stab you  or slash you and you aren't filling that entry with an attack, or initiating a grappling situation to gain control of his weapon,or if you do not remove yourself from distance upon completion of said attacking entry(either way, where you need to be to execute any many of the knife counters you show in your videos), your odds are not good of stopping the next one.
 This is no insult to your skill but a matter of physiology and human reflexes. The guy attacking already knows where and when, you do not. Sure, you might stop some of them, but then again you may not. The odds are certainly against you.

On another note you do realize that creating a syllabus of moves does not make that syllabus of moves effective automatically right? Only intensive pressure testing can do that.

Why not get some prop knives, a partner and some dude to act as the kill ref and make a video or two of you actually pulling some of this stuff off? I guarantee at least one of us will be surprised by the results.

As for the weapons training I've never done(since you chose to shift the discussion from the efficacy of technique to me personally, aka argumentum ad hominem), I didn't do 4 years of Arnis concurrent to my  WingChun training(where we certainly didn't spar on Friday with our padded butterfly swords), I didn't study fencing with an ex Olympic alternate for two summers, and I certainly don't spar in class with the rubber knives from the rubber weapon crate a couple times a week.

That's not to mention all the personal training I've never done on my own throughout my life with my extensive weapons collection I don't have.

When you're right you're right I guess. What else do you know about me personally through intuition I wonder.


----------



## jobo

gpseymour said:


> Then you keep mis-stating your own position. You repeatedly make a point that the problem with the technique involves the speed, lack of movement, and distancing used in the starter exercise. If those aren't the problem, maybe stop bringing up points about the starting exercise and focus on what you really mean?


Not miss stated, I further embellished my point my referencing, that knife fightibg is totally dependent on speed, and defending against stab rather than slash attacks, as evidebced by the vid I posted,

If he had ever tried to do it in real time he would know that and that it didn't work,

Or people who can't do the whole thing in real time shouldn't be trying to teach slow moving unrealistic techniques, to the gullable


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> Not miss stated, I further embellished my point my referencing, that knife fightibg is totally dependent on speed, and defending against stab rather than slash attacks, as evidebced by the vid I posted,
> 
> If he had ever tried to do it in real time he would know that and that it didn't work,
> 
> Or people who can't do the whole thing in real time shouldn't be trying to teach slow moving unrealistic techniques, to the gullable


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## Gweilo

I did not write anything, just to see if you was going argue.


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## Grenadier

*Admin's Note:*

Keep this discussion civil, folks.  Any more snide comments towards each other will result in the issuance of warning points that can lead to a temporary or permanent ban.  

You have some leeway to civilly attack the message, but not the messenger.  Remember this, and you should be OK.  Ignore this, and you won't be.


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> You seem to have spent a big chunk of your life learning fantasy martial arts, it not surprising that you buy in to any fantasy that comes your way, and there's no bigger fantasy than silly old men doing demonstration against a tame opponent,  I see your havent denied, his remarkable ability to block a sword with his fore arm, ? Just deflexted to attack the truth teller, all very cultish[/QUOTE
> ]
> Bujinkan ninjutsu, Hapkido? Fantasy, big statement,


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## jobo

Ok let's take the warning on voard and drop the personal attacks,

Are you claiming that you have validated them against some objective criteria, if not then there is a strong possibility that they are fantasy, and let's be ckear there's no doubt that there's a lot of fantasy martial arts about,  

Your in the UK arnt you ? Come down when the weather gets better and we can have a freindly spar, if you can hit me with one of them systema floppy fish slap punches IL buy you a nice dinner,


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## KPM

Martial D said:


> Hey man no need to get salty. I actually like a lot of the stuff you do.
> 
> The thing is, a healthy dose of skepticism is required of those that don't want to fall into the bullshido trap. So yes, when I see things that look to be a little suspect(such as playing Errol Flynn at close range with short blades), I might require a little evidence before swallowing it whole, especially when it runs contrary to what my own experience tells me.
> 
> You used the example of Dan inosanto/escrima. Have you ever heard of Dog Brothers? They do full contact fma stuff and its pretty brutal and visceral stuff. They get hit constantly and quickly, and it's all pretty much a blur. There's very little parrying, and the rounds are fast..and these are dudes that actually train at speed for competition.
> 
> And it's much easier to block with two sticks as long as your arm than it is to block with a single blade less than half that length, against an blade that's also less than half the size of a stick, coming on a much tighter arc or thrust.
> 
> Are you really that fast? I'm sure not.
> 
> 
> I would say if you can actually get close enough where he can stab you  or slash you and you aren't filling that entry with an attack, or initiating a grappling situation to gain control of his weapon,or if you do not remove yourself from distance upon completion of said attacking entry(either way, where you need to be to execute any many of the knife counters you show in your videos), your odds are not good of stopping the next one.
> This is no insult to your skill but a matter of physiology and human reflexes. The guy attacking already knows where and when, you do not. Sure, you might stop some of them, but then again you may not. The odds are certainly against you.
> 
> On another note you do realize that creating a syllabus of moves does not make that syllabus of moves effective automatically right? Only intensive pressure testing can do that.
> 
> Why not get some prop knives, a partner and some dude to act as the kill ref and make a video or two of you actually pulling some of this stuff off? I guarantee at least one of us will be surprised by the results.
> 
> As for the weapons training I've never done(since you chose to shift the discussion from the efficacy of technique to me personally, aka argumentum ad hominem), I didn't do 4 years of Arnis concurrent to my  WingChun training(where we certainly didn't spar on Friday with our padded butterfly swords), I didn't study fencing with an ex Olympic alternate for two summers, and I certainly don't spar in class with the rubber knives from the rubber weapon crate a couple times a week.
> 
> That's not to mention all the personal training I've never done on my own throughout my life with my extensive weapons collection I don't have.
> 
> When you're right you're right I guess. What else do you know about me personally through intuition I wonder.




Being skeptical is fine.  In that instance you say "I'm going to have to try this and see if I can get it to work."  You don't go telling someone else they are wrong and it won't work, especially when that someone has been training it and CAN make it work!   And I will state again...I did not make this up!  Other people also can make this work just fine!


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## jobo

KPM said:


> Being skeptical is fine.  In that instance you say "I'm going to have to try this and see if I can get it to work."  You don't go telling someone else they are wrong and it won't work, especially when that someone has been training it and CAN make it work!   And I will state again...I did not make this up!  Other people also can make this work just fine!


Let's be clear, you've tried this against someone who fights realistically and is fast moving and you've made it work, I don't suppose there's any vid of this miracle
NB it didn't work if you got stabbed 10 times before you had a bit of luck or even once


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## Martial D

KPM said:


> Being skeptical is fine.  In that instance you say "I'm going to have to try this and see if I can get it to work."  You don't go telling someone else they are wrong and it won't work, especially when that someone has been training it and CAN make it work!   And I will state again...I did not make this up!  Other people also can make this work just fine!


Well, maybe you can pull this stuff off for real. Let's see.

As I said before, one of us will be very surprised at the results.


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> Not miss stated, I further embellished my point my referencing, that knife fightibg is totally dependent on speed, and defending against stab rather than slash attacks, as evidebced by the vid I posted,
> 
> If he had ever tried to do it in real time he would know that and that it didn't work,
> 
> Or people who can't do the whole thing in real time shouldn't be trying to teach slow moving unrealistic techniques, to the gullable


In the video you referenced, there were actually slash attacks, too. The stab approach proved to be more effective, as you'd expect, but ignoring slashes doesn't improve defense.

I agree this probably isn't high percentage stuff against someone with significant skill (relatively speaking). I don't think anything is, when it comes to knives. I see this mostly as "oh crap" moves that can save when you find yourself in the way of the attack.


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## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Have you ever heard of Dog Brothers? They do full contact fma stuff and its pretty brutal and visceral stuff. They get hit constantly and quickly, and it's all pretty much a blur. There's very little parrying, and the rounds are fast..and these are dudes that actually train at speed for competition.


The issue I see with Dog Brothers and the like (and this is not a fault for DB, just the reality of weapons training) is that there's little penalty for being over-aggressive unless you are seriously outclassed. With actual stabs and cuts, there's a strong incentive to be conservative. In DB, aggression tends to win the day, because there's more punishment for the other guy. If he neatly "stabs" you while you "cut" him hard, there's significantly less penalty (pain) for you than for him.


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> In the video you referenced, there were actually slash attacks, too. The stab approach proved to be more effective, as you'd expect, but ignoring slashes doesn't improve defense.
> 
> I agree this probably isn't high percentage stuff against someone with significant skill (relatively speaking). I don't think anything is, when it comes to knives. I see this mostly as "oh crap" moves that can save when you find yourself in the way of the attack.


Its an oh crap move if and only if you happen to be in possession of a Bowie knife, which means it's by no means a unfortunate incident you had no prior warning of,  .
There's only two viable defences to a knife attack, which are a) to get out of range and b) to get them first, both of which are depend upon xckusivly on speed and anyone slashing at you ( in range ) is leaving themsekfs wide open to  a streaight plunge which is why slash attacks are not popular against someone with a big knife. .   The general target for a slash attack is the out stretch hand that holding your knife, but then not big slashes that leave you open, 

All if this is easy to prove to yourself with a bit of sparring and plastic knives, remembering, that it's a one touch win, or there no win if you are both dead


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## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> The issue I see with Dog Brothers and the like (and this is not a fault for DB, just the reality of weapons training) is that there's little penalty for being over-aggressive unless you are seriously outclassed. With actual stabs and cuts, there's a strong incentive to be conservative. In DB, aggression tends to win the day, because there's more punishment for the other guy. If he neatly "stabs" you while you "cut" him hard, there's significantly less penalty (pain) for you than for him.


I'm not sure I can agree that being conservative is the best strategy in a first hit wins the day type situation.


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## KPM

*ts an oh crap move if and only if you happen to be in possession of a Bowie knife, which means it's by no means a unfortunate incident you had no prior warning of, .
There's only two viable defences to a knife attack, which are a) to get out of range and b) to get them first, both of which are depend upon xckusivly on speed and anyone slashing at you ( in range ) is leaving themsekfs wide open to a streaight plunge which is why slash attacks are not popular against someone with a big knife. . The general target for a slash attack is the out stretch hand that holding your knife, but then not big slashes that leave you open,* 



^^^^^  Uh.....the original video was only referring to use of the Bowie Knife.  And couldn't "getting them first" be a backhand slash to their attacking limb?  Because that is what a side parry really is!  Once again....you are just arguing for argument's sake alone.


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## jobo

KPM said:


> *ts an oh crap move if and only if you happen to be in possession of a Bowie knife, which means it's by no means a unfortunate incident you had no prior warning of, .
> There's only two viable defences to a knife attack, which are a) to get out of range and b) to get them first, both of which are depend upon xckusivly on speed and anyone slashing at you ( in range ) is leaving themsekfs wide open to a streaight plunge which is why slash attacks are not popular against someone with a big knife. . The general target for a slash attack is the out stretch hand that holding your knife, but then not big slashes that leave you open,*
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^^  Uh.....the original video was only referring to use of the Bowie Knife.  And couldn't "getting them first" be a backhand slash to their attacking limb?  Because that is what a side parry really is!  Once again....you are just arguing for argument's sake alone.


you could most certainly have stuck him , whilst he was in the backhand position, he had no defence and his knife was pointing away from you, what better position are you hoping for ?


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> Ok let's take the warning on voard and drop the personal attacks,
> 
> Are you claiming that you have validated them against some objective criteria, if not then there is a strong possibility that they are fantasy, and let's be ckear there's no doubt that there's a lot of fantasy martial arts about,
> 
> Your in the UK arnt you ? Come down when the weather gets better and we can have a freindly spar, if you can hit me with one of them systema floppy fish slap punches IL buy you a nice dinner,


Love to, or should I say Mad for it, I am actually in Shropshire in march


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## Gweilo

And on the condition we video it and upload it to MT, so everyone else can see the result.got to love you Karate boys


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> Its an oh crap move if and only if you happen to be in possession of a Bowie knife, which means it's by no means a unfortunate incident you had no prior warning of,  .
> There's only two viable defences to a knife attack, which are a) to get out of range and b) to get them first, both of which are depend upon xckusivly on speed and anyone slashing at you ( in range ) is leaving themsekfs wide open to  a streaight plunge which is why slash attacks are not popular against someone with a big knife. .   The general target for a slash attack is the out stretch hand that holding your knife, but then not big slashes that leave you open,
> 
> All if this is easy to prove to yourself with a bit of sparring and plastic knives, remembering, that it's a one touch win, or there no win if you are both dead


So, it seems your main argument has two points in this post:

1) You can only use this if you have a Bowie knife. That's accurate, but useless, since this is a Bowie knife training video.

2) The other guy has to do something less-than-optimal to make this possible. Also accurate and only slightly more useful, since the thing needed is also explicit in the video.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> I'm not sure I can agree that being conservative is the best strategy in a first hit wins the day type situation.


First hit doesn't win. Surviving wins. If you get first hit, but get killed too (or maybe without killing him), it does you no good. In non-lethal competition (dull weapons, etc.), the payoff and penalty for any given type of attack/defense is somewhat altered. If high aggression costs me a match, that's not a big penalty compared to it costing me an arm or my life.


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## KPM

jobo said:


> you could most certainly have stuck him , whilst he was in the backhand position, he had no defence and his knife was pointing away from you, what better position are you hoping for ?



What the heck are you even talking about?  That wasn't the purpose of the video!  The purpose of the video was instructional to teach the  basics of a very specific technique.  You keep taking things out of context and just flat don't understand what I was even trying to show.  Either that....or you are still just arguing for the sake of arguing.  Well, I'm not going to play your game.  Go find someone else to criticize and argue with.   Go ask the Koryu Japanese Swordsmanship guys if they've ever actually been in a sword fight and then start telling them how wrong they are about everything!


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> So, it seems your main argument has two points in this post:
> 
> 1) You can only use this if you have a Bowie knife. That's accurate, but useless, since this is a Bowie knife training video.
> 
> 2) The other guy has to do something less-than-optimal to make this possible. Also accurate and only slightly more useful, since the thing needed is also explicit in the video.


is it, where in the vid doesn't it say it's only a Bowie knife vid or even mention Bowie knife at all, ?  that's just kppm clutching at straws after the horse has bolted


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> is it, where in the vid doesn't it say it's only a Bowie knife vid or even mention Bowie knife at all, ?  that's just kppm clutching at straws after the horse has bolted


So, if someone is teaching sword techniques, you expect them to say "this only works with a sword"?


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## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> First hit doesn't win. Surviving wins. If you get first hit, but get killed too (or maybe without killing him), it does you no good. In non-lethal competition (dull weapons, etc.), the payoff and penalty for any given type of attack/defense is somewhat altered. If high aggression costs me a match, that's not a big penalty compared to it costing me an arm or my life.


How many people do you think keep fighting after getting stabbed? Unless there is pcp involved that's generally all she wrote . Playing defense in a knife fight is suicide.

Do you actually believe this stuff?

Convince me with evidence.


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## Gweilo

Urge hmm, Jobo, I haven't heard from you about sparring, or was a moment when your Tena pants leaked?


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## jobo

gpseymour said:


> So, if someone is teaching sword techniques, you expect them to say "this only works with a sword"?


 but he's not teaching sword, thank God  he is teaching knife techniquesthe


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## jobo

Gweilo said:


> Urge hmm, Jobo, I haven't heard from you about sparring, or was a moment when your Tena pants leaked?


like I said mate come down to Manchester


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## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> How many people do you think keep fighting after getting stabbed? Unless there is pcp involved that's generally all she wrote . Playing defense in a knife fight is suicide.
> 
> Do you actually believe this stuff?
> 
> Convince me with evidence.


I'm not talking about them continuing to fight - I'm talking about them getting a hit on the same beat. If I get in and cut you while you stab me, who got whom first isn't very important.


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> but he's not teaching sword, thank God  he is teaching knife techniquesthe


You're just ignoring your own point, now. That usually means you've run out of anything to work with.


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## Gweilo

jobo said:


> like I said mate come down to Manchester


Pm me your details and we can arrange it, I will also let you play the theme tune to the last samurai if you want


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## Gweilo

I'l up the anti, if you can stop me from fishy systema slapping you for 5 mins, I will buy the meal and the beer, if you fail, I will buy you a few beers to show you there are no hard feelings


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## KPM

jobo said:


> is it, where in the vid doesn't it say it's only a Bowie knife vid or even mention Bowie knife at all, ?  that's just kppm clutching at straws after the horse has bolted



Good grief man, are you even paying attention?  The title of the video is "The Side Parry Step Play for Bowie Knife"!!!  

Moderators....this guy is clearly just instigating and arguing for arguing's sake.  Don't you do something about this?  Or do you always just wait until someone uses a  "bad word"???

Grenadier.....are you following this thread at all?


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## jobo

KPM said:


> Good grief man, are you even paying attention?  The title of the video is "The Side Parry Step Play for Bowie Knife"!!!
> 
> Moderators....this guy is clearly just instigating and arguing for arguing's sake.  Don't you do something about this?  Or do you always just wait until someone uses a  "bad word"???
> 
> Grenadier.....are you following this thread at all?


not on here it's not, the title finishes with FOR,   have a look yourself


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## KPM

Martial D said:


> How many people do you think keep fighting after getting stabbed? Unless there is pcp involved that's generally all she wrote . Playing defense in a knife fight is suicide.
> 
> Do you actually believe this stuff?
> 
> Convince me with evidence.



Again, no offense here, but you clearly don't know what you are talking about!  Plenty of people get stabbed multiple times and are bleeding in an altercation and never even realized it until it was all over.  Unlike the movies, people don't just immediately drop to the ground when touched by a knife.  People can take a heck of a lot of damage and keep on coming!   No PCP required.  Just adrenaline! Or a little alcohol!   You keep making authoritative statements that just flat out show how little you really know.  Better to stop now!


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## Gweilo

Dear Mr Jobo, I do respect the fact that all our beliefs and experience,  on a forum like MT, are open to debate, examination,  and scepticism,  you are entitled to your view, and to be pastionate about it, your views are respected, but to go overboard and challenge, somebody you know little about is reckless and shows disrespect to their training.
It is my belief that everyone has an opinion, and because others do not agree ,to challenge them, and then ignore there agreement of said challenge, only makes yourself look bad, I acknowledge you have a valid opinion,  and a respected one, but keep it in your pants if you are not willing to yield it.


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## Dirty Dog

THREAD LOCKED PENDING STAFF REVIEW.


----------

