# Is Akido worth learning? (Self Defense)



## Kajjustu

Hey all genuine question here!


Firstly I am from a FMA/Boxing background. I have heard of Akido and was Intrested.

How It all came about Is I searched how many styles does the Green Arrow/Batman the canary the DC comics and the regular show actually known they look at certain moves and try to conclude without doubt what styles they know.


Anyways they showed a move and It said It was popular the moves he uses thier Is Akido and then showed something. It's widely believed Batman knows over 100 different types of Martial Arts and has trained for years and Is highly ranked In all of them. It's said he's familiar with any type of martial arts very non realistic I know!

I read up about Akido and It's Intresting. It's known as the 'Martial Art Of Peace'. Uses minimal force and Is more peaceful and Is not designed for the aim to purely kill or break bones. Taekwondo and others for example have deadly kicks. You might be the smallest guy In the room but learning how to tornado kick especially to the head Is deadly. Hit someone In the right place and giving It a good kicking could cause some serious damage.

From what I read Akido was designed more for self defense then Attacking Is about either playing dirty or doing whatever It takes to quickly end a confrontation It's not as brutal and offence orientated. That's why It has caught my attention I want to study Akido with other more lethal techniques/styles!

As compare to boxing where you smash your opponent and just flat out attack them.

Like I say boxing more of a attack/defend sort of fighting style Akido Is just do whatever It takes to really hurt them or put them on the ground or out them in some sort of vulnerable position get them out of action.

I've seen a guy called Akido flow on youtube and he said you can either be dirty like Muay Thai Elbows Knees kicks ect, or just throw them down get behind them and tackle them to the ground or hold them In a lock. You can either be brutal or alot milder.


I like the way you deflect and get around poeple In Akido and try to put them In lock or Immobilise them temporarily.

It's not a martial designed to kill maim or break bones at first glance anyway.


It's designed to put poeple down or defuse situations either using brutal techniques or softer ones. U can use a fist or slap them hard ect.

The philosophy of Akido I don't think Is kill or hurt like the others. Karate, Wing Chun, Ninjustu, Taekwondo, Copiera, Muay Thai, Hapkido, and alot of others I think are alot more aggressive to them.


I also think Akido with other styles Is effective to.


Here's my question though, has anyone known anyone to effectively or yourself If your skilled In Akido has anyone used It? Or Is It just a **** style to learn altogether?


I've talked to numerous poeple and read alot about Akido and loads of poeple look down upon It. Stuff like Akido Is a waste of time ect ect. It's useless this and that. I was told by someone yesterday who has street fighting experience (basically freestyle fighting learned off gypsies bareknuckle and abit of Karate/Wing Chun/Judo experience.) His main experience Is backstreet fighting and a few martial arts.


He used to have fights regularly and drunken brawls for money and for fun. He said out of all the various arts he's done he said Akido was awful. But he's never said he's done akido lol contradictory or what!


Now from what I've read the pro's and con's of Akido!

Benefits:

*Not designed purely to maim Injure or kill
*Lots of mild grabs and locks that can stop fights by applying pressure and fancy moves to dodge them.

*The way they move and flick someone over (tirae Marnargie) or whatever you call It.
*good for fitness and footwork
*learning anything will help against an untrained attacker.


Cons:

*I've heard most of the philosophy Is about causing as little permanent damage as possible so It's not designed to be lethal and deadly. This Is why I think loads of poeple bash Akido.

I think it's more designed to put poeple down or give them a few painful injurys and then put them in locks If you wanted to. It's not designed to be bone crushing and lethal like Mauy Thai or taekwondo Is . It can be lethal If you want to add elbows and kicks and punches to sensitive parts you can do some damage. I think most Akido experts only use brutal techniques against poeple who are dangerous carry knives, ect then they just go full out kicks to kneecaps kick to the balls bone crushing blows ect. For milder opponents just put them in locks or twist limbs until they no longer a threat minimal damage martial art techniques ect.

*Most effective techniques I've heard take a few years to master properly and actually use. Basically to be able to use Akido to It's full potential have a wide range of sparring partners and do It for atleast a few years.


And that's It.......



So has Akido helped you against armed Asilants?

Has Akido helped you against any street thugs?


And Is Akido effective In general?


Do you regret taking Akido classes?





And PS: I know any martial art If well trained and a good fighter and good techniques and form are used It can be deadly. Someone I know who Is highly skilled In 3 types of Kung Fu said Thai Chi (thai-cheee) for example poeple think It's more like yoga lol. But he said It's an actual art depends on how you apply It. If trained In a combat way and you use It In a offensive way and you practice and spar alot you are actually leaning a martial art just they don't usually spare and It's seen as more of a relaxing technique.


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## dvcochran

Is this who I think it is?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

dvcochran said:


> Is this who I think it is?


Most likely no.


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## drop bear

Kajjustu said:


> *Not designed purely to maim Injure or kill
> *Lots of mild grabs and locks that can stop fights by applying pressure and fancy moves to dodge them.
> 
> *The way they move and flick someone over (tirae Marnargie) or whatever you call It.
> *good for fitness and footwork
> *learning anything will help against an untrained attacker.



What you are describing is wrestling. Exept it doesn't really have the cons you were concerned about.


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## Gerry Seymour

That's a lot of text. The answer (ignoring the entire bit about Batman's fictional history, which is both entirely impossible and entirely irrelevant) is that it depends how it is taught and trained. The "peaceful art" approach, IMO, isn't very effective for self-defense, and that doesn't seem to be an issue for practitioners (who are focused on the peaceful self-development it engenders). If there is a foundation behind it (good striking and grappling skills), the aiki principles make for interesting lifelong learning, and open up options less often found in other approaches.

But it needs those basic skills (again, good striking and grappling) as a foundation. Without them, it seems to often turn into a pleasureable game with no losers. Which is fine for those looking for precisely that.


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## Gweilo

dvcochran said:


> Is this who I think it is?


Not enough Brah, and too many vowls.


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## ShortBridge

I know Batman. 
Batman is a friend of mine.
You sir, are not Batman.


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## Gweilo

ShortBridge said:


> I know Batman.
> Batman is a friend of mine.
> You sir, are not Batman.


And I must say, thats a hell of a sidekick,shortbridge


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## ShortBridge

Gweilo said:


> And I must say, thats a hell of a sidekick,shortbridge



He's actually pretty chill once you get past all that dark knight stuff. Terrible tipper, though. I always have to throw a little extra on the table when we go out.


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## punisher73

Loaded question...

It really all boils down to how it is taught and trained.  There are some schools that teach a more effective approach to Aikido and understanding its use and there are others heavily influenced by the philosophy that really only do compliant drills and wouldn't help you much if you are trying to use it as your main base for self-defense.

Plus side is that due to it overall philosophy, many schools spend a lot of time understanding de-escalation techniques and stopping the fight before it gets physical.  Their focus is on finding your own mental/emotional balance and controlling yourself and then working on the other person.  They would view the conflict as the other person is out of balance and you are helping him to regain his emotional balance.  The other person isn't viewed as an "attacker" or an "opponent" because you are both working towards the same goal.

On the down side, many schools teach overly complex techniques that illustrate all of the concepts and principles of redirection etc. and forget to focus on the basic simple self-defense methods that would make it successful.  For example, Sensei Gozo Shioda was challenged by a boxer who thought it was BS.  The boxer pretty much cleaned the floor with his student and Sensei Shioda watched what the boxer would do.  When Shioda faced the boxer, he immediately off angled to the outside and took the boxer out with an irimi-nage (think clothesline).  The point is that, Shioda knew that the boxer's punches were not going to be over committed punches and he wasn't trying trap/catch/redirect one of them to apply a joint lock.He knew HOW to apply his martial art.

Most of the early students of Ueshiba knew other martial arts so they had a foundation on proper distancing of attacks etc.  So they could apply things.  Other things like striking before applying is sometimes missing in Aikido schools, which according to Ueshiba, accounts for the large percentage of techniques and should be applied before the joint locks etc.

In our city, one of the assistant instructors was the exact opposite of the brawler you described.  He was a scrapper who got into a lot of fights and studied Aikido because the instructor was able to control/dominate him when challenged.  Again, it will come down to each individual school and approach to what you will get.

To put it another way, nobody would say that boxing is useless because those cardio boxing classes are so unrealistic and don't teach you how to fight.  The problem with many martial arts (and Aikido) is that they are being taught like a "cardio class" that isn't really teaching you to fight, but they are saying that it does.  It doesn't make the art bad, it makes the training methods and approach bad.


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## O'Malley

punisher73 said:


> Plus side is that due to it overall philosophy, many schools spend a lot of time understanding de-escalation techniques and stopping the fight before it gets physical.  Their focus is on finding your own mental/emotional balance and controlling yourself and then working on the other person.  They would view the conflict as the other person is out of balance and you are helping him to regain his emotional balance.  The other person isn't viewed as an "attacker" or an "opponent" because you are both working towards the same goal.



I have trained in four aikido dojos in three different federations and was never once taught de-escalation techniques. The other aikido practitioners that I know don't train them as well. What are the aikido groups that have de-escalation techniques as part of their regular curriculum?

By the way, the technique used by Shioda against the boxer was a shiho nage, according to his book, Aikido Shugyo. 

To the original poster:

*So has Akido helped you against armed Asilants?*

I haven't been attacked with a weapon since I started training.

*Has Akido helped you against any street thugs?*

I've been able to grab and take the balance of aggressive/potentially dangerous people but I've not been in a "fight" since I started training.

*And Is Akido effective In general?*

As said above, it depends on how it is practiced. I feel that the aikido as practiced and promoted by the Aikikai Hombu Dojo (the central dojo that sends out the most teachers to give seminars, so basically the place that trains 90% of aikido teachers) has (purposefully) very little martial value. It's more like rythmic gymnastics. So, if you train at an Aikikai dojo, there's a high chance that your training will not add much to your fighting skills (unless your teacher is doing his own stuff). Other styles may have interesting stuff: Ki Society is great for conditioning, Yoshinkan and Iwama styles try their best to rigorously teach aikido principles and Shodokan/Tomiki has sparring.

On that last point, most aikido dojos only do kata and exercises and don't spar, therefore if you want to learn to apply your aikido against resistance you will need a venue where you can spar, that's why taking up judo, sumo, wrestling, BJJ or MMA will help a lot.

*Do you regret taking Akido classes?*

Never once did I regret it: it makes my body and mind stronger and I really enjoy doing it.


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## Gerry Seymour

O'Malley said:


> I have trained in four aikido dojos in three different federations and was never once taught de-escalation techniques. The other aikido practitioners that I know don't train them as well. What are the aikido groups that have de-escalation techniques as part of their regular curriculum?
> 
> By the way, the technique used by Shioda against the boxer was a shiho nage, according to his book, Aikido Shugyo.
> 
> To the original poster:
> 
> *So has Akido helped you against armed Asilants?*
> 
> I haven't been attacked with a weapon since I started training.
> 
> *Has Akido helped you against any street thugs?*
> 
> I've been able to grab and take the balance of aggressive/potentially dangerous people but I've not been in a "fight" since I started training.
> 
> *And Is Akido effective In general?*
> 
> As said above, it depends on how it is practiced. I feel that the aikido as practiced and promoted by the Aikikai Hombu Dojo (the central dojo that sends out the most teachers to give seminars, so basically the place that trains 90% of aikido teachers) has (purposefully) very little martial value. It's more like rythmic gymnastics. So, if you train at an Aikikai dojo, there's a high chance that your training will not add much to your fighting skills (unless your teacher is doing his own stuff). Other styles may have interesting stuff: Ki Society is great for conditioning, Yoshinkan and Iwama styles try their best to rigorously teach aikido principles and Shodokan/Tomiki has sparring.
> 
> On that last point, most aikido dojos only do kata and exercises and don't spar, therefore if you want to learn to apply your aikido against resistance you will need a venue where you can spar, that's why taking up judo, sumo, wrestling, BJJ or MMA will help a lot.
> 
> *Do you regret taking Akido classes?*
> 
> Never once did I regret it: it makes my body and mind stronger and I really enjoy doing it.


Excellent post.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Aikido guys like to control on the wrist joint. This will give their opponent's too much space to counter. The better clinch range should be either the elbow joint, or the shoulder/neck/waist joint.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Aikido guys like to control on the wrist joint. This will give their opponent's too much space to counter. The better clinch range should be either the elbow joint, or the shoulder/neck/waist joint.


Those get used, too.


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## drop bear

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Aikido guys like to control on the wrist joint. This will give their opponent's too much space to counter. The better clinch range should be either the elbow joint, or the shoulder/neck/waist joint.



Controlling the neck also protects their head when you throw a person. Which if your aim is non violence would avoid some embarrassing head spikes in concrete.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Those get used, too.



Most grappling arts have wrist control as well.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Most grappling arts have wrist control as well.


Agreed. My view of Aikido (probably not the majority view, FWIW) is that it has exactly the same range of techniques as any other grappling system - it just focuses in a different area. I'm more Judo-y than most in the Aiki arts, so I'm more likely to work in close, and wrist/elbow techniques are what happen as they are trying to get back out.

The Russian wrist snap (again, I think I'm remembering the name properly - you posted a video a year or so ago to introduce me to that one) is a great example of a wrist-length technique in wrestling.


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## Budster

I think you should forget about what everyone *says *about Aikido, and first determine what exactly _*you *_want to get out of studying Aikido (or any martial art for that matter). Then, observe several classes at as many Aikido Dojos as you can get to. As was stated, every Dojo teaches differently. Some are drastically different. Try to get past the whole "_is <insert martial art here> useful in a street fight_" mentality. It won't do you any good if that's one of your main motivations for studying.  Because they are ALL useful... if studied/practiced with that intention.

Instead, I suggest coming up with a short list of arts that you are naturally drawn to.  Go to Dojos/gyms and observe as many classes as possible.  You may find that an art you were once drawn to, actually isn't what you thought it was.  Likewise, and this needs repeating, different Dojos/gyms can teach the same art drastically different from each other.

Using my own journey for an example, I was naturally drawn to Karate, Aikido, Boxing, Chinese Kenpo, and Kung Fu. Aikido was not at the top of the list at first. And I started out pretty certain that I was going to take Karate or Kung Fu. For several months I observed countless classes at many gyms/Dojos. I asked questions there as well. Many MANY people were more than happy to chat with me about their art. The more I did this, the more I was drawn to Aikido and less to the others. In addition, I was very drawn to one Dojo in particular. Everything about their teaching and practicing the art was everything I wanted to get out of studying.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to chose an art that will be useful in a real fight. But that should be more a part of your criteria when selecting a Dojo. I visited many that did not allow sparring/randori.  And I personally believe that it would be counter-productive to study for that reason, at a place that doesn't let you practice.  But this whole mentality about "_martial art xyz is crap in a real fight_" is... well... crap.

You want me to show you 10 boxers that couldn't stand long in a street fight? Easy.
You want me to show you 10 wing chun veterans that couldn't hold their own in a street fight? No problem.
You want me to show you 10 street fighters than couldn't go 10 seconds with an Aikido expert? I can do that too.

I think it was Evander Holyfield that said, "I touch gloves before the match, and after the match. Everything in between is strategy."  The point here is that there is no magic bullet. You have to be in peak physical shape. You have to be in peak mental state. And you have to have taken all your training, turned it into instinct, and be able to call on it in a fraction of a second.  Guess who is going to lose a fight between two fighters of different styles with ALL things being equal? The vast majority of the time the loser will be the first to make a mistake.


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## JP3

Did anyone figure out if the O/P is a legit "new guy," or a agent provacateur?


Quick response, and also ignoring Batman.... don't you know you've got to reference Daredevil for martial arts stuff?

Yes, I'm aiki traned. Yes, I've had to use it "in anger." Yes, it worked. It didn't "look like" it looks when training it, and the results aren't pretty falls, but something way less graceful though.

That being said, I agree with Gerry in that it really only becomes effective when you've got other basic skillsets in your bag. For me, TKD/HKD, judo and Muay Thai.  So, what I do looks weird, doesn't really resemble aikido as taught by the Aikikai, so I don't know if people would call it "aikido" anymore. Aikujutsu, I think, with more eye-pokey things.


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## punisher73

O'Malley said:


> I have trained in four aikido dojos in three different federations and was never once taught de-escalation techniques. The other aikido practitioners that I know don't train them as well. What are the aikido groups that have de-escalation techniques as part of their regular curriculum?
> 
> By the way, the technique used by Shioda against the boxer was a shiho nage, according to his book, Aikido Shugyo.



Thanks for the correction on Shioda Sensei, I was trying to go from memory.

The style of Aikido that I studied was Seidokan Aikido (Seidokan Aikido  it's an old website, but gives some background).  I studied under Sensei Mark Crapo and all of the Aikido priciples (like irimi and tenkan) were taught on how to apply that to everyday life and how to use it so you don't have to resort to physical means.


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## stanly stud

I have trained in Takemusu Iwama ryu  & Tendo ryu Aikido. It has it´s uses, sabaki but you can´t just rely on aikido for self defence. One Aikido i could never really belive in was this below. KI Aikido taken to the limits. sorry but just NO !


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## Hanshi

For years I taught aikido, judo and karate.  Aikido dojo can differ just as much as karate dojo as far as sport vs practical.  Aikido is definitely not "gentle" to uke.  The falls and "slams" of aikido are _harder, so to speak,_ than judo break falls.  By that I mean they are at bizarre angles and damage to the joints occurs BEFORE the fall begins.  For example, the shoulder technique, shiho nage can't even be practiced in the dojo unless it's modified to prevent serious injury.  On the street, a shiho nage does massive shoulder damage _before_ the opponent falls.  This is why aikido looks so "pretty" in demos.  Uke is given smooth manipulations that allow him to do a safe fall out of the technique.  In actual use the techniques are snapped.  The aiki throws lets the aggressor throw himself and require little to no manipulation by nage.  Some overlap does exist with judo and aikido.

So yes, aikido techniques are devastating just as boxing is compared to karate point sparring.  Steven Segal's first couple of movies show realistic use of aikido techniques.  There is the less destructive side composed of pain compliance, come-a-longs, etc, that are sometimes taught in police academies.  Another misconception is that you don't strike in aikido; this is simply not so.  O sensei once stated that "atemi is 90% of aikido".  Strikes, both feints and actual hits are used in combination with techniques.  My sensei, now sadly deceased, taught very small circles as opposed to the grand, sweeping circles that look so beautiful in videos.


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## stanly stud

Hanshi said:


> My sensei, now sadly deceased, taught very small circles as opposed to the grand, sweeping circles that look so beautiful in videos.


I trained with an old German guy who was a direct student of Saito Sensei in Iwama. Takemusu was short & a lot of jo kata. However for outside use...not on it´s own.


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## stanly stud

Saito Sensei


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## stanly stud

his Aikido was very short & he used Atemi.


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## stanly stud

the other school of Aikido i did was Tendo Ryu. much rounder sabaki. Shimizu Sensei comes often to Germany. He was also a judo man. a lot of hip throws.


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## Gerry Seymour

stanly stud said:


> I have trained in Takemusu Iwama ryu  & Tendo ryu Aikido. It has it´s uses, sabaki but you can´t just rely on aikido for self defence. One Aikido i could never really belive in was this below. KI Aikido taken to the limits. sorry but just NO !


Tohei's organization, as I understand it, moved away from the concept of training for combat to training specifically to develop concepts of ki. I would assume their stuff isn't good for developing fighting skill.


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## stanly stud

gpseymour said:


> Tohei's organization, as I understand it, moved away from the concept of training for combat to training specifically to develop concepts of ki. I would assume their stuff isn't good for developing fighting skill.


very true. Not for me.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanshi said:


> For years I taught aikido, judo and karate.  Aikido dojo can differ just as much as karate dojo as far as sport vs practical.  Aikido is definitely not "gentle" to uke.  The falls and "slams" of aikido are _harder, so to speak,_ than judo break falls.  By that I mean they are at bizarre angles and damage to the joints occurs BEFORE the fall begins.  For example, the shoulder technique, shiho nage can't even be practiced in the dojo unless it's modified to prevent serious injury.  On the street, a shiho nage does massive shoulder damage _before_ the opponent falls.  This is why aikido looks so "pretty" in demos.  Uke is given smooth manipulations that allow him to do a safe fall out of the technique.  In actual use the techniques are snapped.  The aiki throws lets the aggressor throw himself and require little to no manipulation by nage.  Some overlap does exist with judo and aikido.
> 
> So yes, aikido techniques are devastating just as boxing is compared to karate point sparring.  Steven Segal's first couple of movies show realistic use of aikido techniques.  There is the less destructive side composed of pain compliance, come-a-longs, etc, that are sometimes taught in police academies.  Another misconception is that you don't strike in aikido; this is simply not so.  O sensei once stated that "atemi is 90% of aikido".  Strikes, both feints and actual hits are used in combination with techniques.  My sensei, now sadly deceased, taught very small circles as opposed to the grand, sweeping circles that look so beautiful in videos.


In NGA, shiho nage ("Pivot Takedown" to us) is practiced as a leverage lock, with uke's elbow kept high. This takes most of the strain off the shoulder. Most schools do a bit of slow practice with the extended version (closer to what you're probably used to), so we know the adjustment to attack that shoulder. That's a not-nice technique, that is.


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## stanly stud

I think if i was going to train in Aikido now knowing what i now know i would look at Tomiki Aikido.


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## Gerry Seymour

stanly stud said:


> the other school of Aikido i did was Tendo Ryu. much rounder sabaki. Shimizu Sensei comes often to Germany. He was also a judo man. a lot of hip throws.


I think Aikido works much better if the practitioner has some Judo experience (or something Judo-like is taught as part of the curriculum). It seems to really tie up some fundamentals that are hard to learn in common Aikido practice.


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## Gerry Seymour

stanly stud said:


> I think if i was going to train in Aikido now knowing what i now know i would look at Tomiki Aikido.


If I were starting over, I'd definitely look for that. Never had an opportunity to train at a Tomiki dojo.


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## stanly stud

it has a competition aspect which i find useful. Tomiki was a high ranked Judo master. really did bring randori into it.


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## stanly stud

gpseymour said:


> If I were starting over, I'd definitely look for that. Never had an opportunity to train at a Tomiki dojo.


yes it backs up your comment about Judo & Aikido. That is exactly what Tomiki Sensei did


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## Gerry Seymour

stanly stud said:


> it has a competition aspect which i find useful. Tomiki was a high ranked Judo master. really did bring randori into it.


And Judo-style randori brings a lot of understanding to grappling fundamentals. Without it, it's easy to fail to learn some of them for a long time.


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## stanly stud

gpseymour said:


> And Judo-style randori brings a lot of understanding to grappling fundamentals. Without it, it's easy to fail to learn some of them for a long time.


It´s funny because when i was a kid in scotland people used to say judo is no use only striking boxing or karate. Later as we all know the Gracies changed all that to a large degree with BJJ.
Yes Judo is great !


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## hoshin1600

stanly stud said:


> . One Aikido i could never really belive in was this below. KI Aikido taken to the limits. sorry but just NO !


my primary teacher had studied in California in Shin Shin Toitsu, Ki society,  and yes the direction and purpose of that training was not self defense but rather self development.  Sensei would read from the book KI in daily life every class.  which as time passed bothered me because we belonged to AAA under Toyota and would train with him on the regular.


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## stanly stud

hoshin1600 said:


> my primary teacher had studied in California in Shin Shin Toitsu, Ki society,  and yes the direction and purpose of that training was not self defense but rather self development.  Sensei would read from the book KI in daily life every class.  which as time passed bothered me because we belonged to AAA under Toyota and would train with him on the regular.


yeah i mean if you like it & it gives you peace do it. maybe more important as we get older. peace of mind.


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## MetalBoar

I've done a fair amount of Aikido and a lot of Hapkido (and other arts). I think that when it comes to self defense, Aikido, as it is frequently taught, by itself, is a long road to follow if your goal is defending yourself from assault. If you want to be able to defend yourself from a mugging or a drunk jerk in a bar you're probably going to be a *lot* more effective a *lot* faster if you go study boxing, BJJ, or some TMA that's focused on quickly developing basic fighting skills. Your Aikido is likely to be a lot better if you've done those things as well. 

That being said, if your goal is protecting yourself from injury, getting really practiced at any art that deeply ingrains good, reflexive, high falls and break falls will likely serve you very well and Aikido is probably one of the better choices for developing this skill. I know that I've avoided potentially serious injury several times because I instinctively respond with a mostly respectable break fall or roll when I lose my footing or get knocked over even though it's been close to 20 years since I last spent a lot of time doing high falls.

One of the most impressive examples of martial arts application for self protection I've ever seen in a real world situation was by a friend of mine with several years of Judo and Hapkido training. This was 20 years ago when he was moving into a new apartment. He was carrying a *huge* CRT TV - he was 6'3" and weighed about 230lbs. without a lot of excess fat and the TV was still a struggle for him to carry by himself. He couldn't see where he was going very well and stepped off the sidewalk into a gravel filled gardening bed. Both of his feet shot straight out from under him, he fell straight backwards onto concrete and the TV shot straight up in the air! He executed a perfect breakfall on the sidewalk, slapped, bounced up and caught the TV and cradled it to his chest, then just as he was about to hit the ground again once again slapped off the ground re-caught the TV and eased it down on top of himself. He walked away from it with no injury at all and the TV was undamaged. I'm pretty sure he hasn't had to use either Judo or Hapkido to defend himself from attack but they sure saved him from injury that time!


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## stanly stud

I like chain punches or arrow punches as they are called. However i train other punches upper cut.  Even swinging outer punches can be useful in a fight.
I believe Choy lay Fut use a lot of swinging punches. Only saw it a couple of times.


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## isshinryuronin

Hanshi said:


> I mean they are at bizarre angles and damage to the joints occurs BEFORE the fall begins.





Hanshi said:


> taught very small circles as opposed to the grand, sweeping circles that look so beautiful in videos.



Not an Aikido guy (though I read "The Dynamic Sphere" with interest), but as an Okinawan TMA guy, the joint locks and subsequent takedowns are as you describe - tight and close in with damage done before the opponent is on his way down.  Like the style you were referencing, _seito_ Okinawan karate does not have much flair to the untrained eye.


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## Hanzou

If you find a real Aikido school, yes.

The problem is that there's so many bad Aikido schools out there that it makes finding a real one very difficult.

You're honestly better off just looking into a Judo or Bjj school. Especially Judo if you're looking for that Japanese flavor. Once you get your black belt in Judo (or Purple in Bjj), you can pretty much go to any Aikido school you want and apply their principles to what you already know.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> If you find a real Aikido school, yes.
> 
> The problem is that there's so many bad Aikido schools out there that it makes finding a real one very difficult.
> 
> You're honestly better off just looking into a Judo or Bjj school. Especially Judo if you're looking for that Japanese flavor. Once you get your black belt in Judo (or Purple in Bjj), you can pretty much go to any Aikido school you want and apply their principles to what you already know.


I'd argue you don't need to get to black/purple for that to be true. A solid BJJ blue belt (if coming from a school that does sufficient standing work) would have a reasonable grasp on the grappling principles needed to understand how to apply what's being developed in those Aikido drills. I'm not sure what level of Judo player I'd say here, but if they've trained a year at a good place, that's probably enough foundation to change how they view Aikido.


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## Hanzou

gpseymour said:


> I'd argue you don't need to get to black/purple for that to be true. A solid BJJ blue belt (if coming from a school that does sufficient standing work) would have a reasonable grasp on the grappling principles needed to understand how to apply what's being developed in those Aikido drills. I'm not sure what level of Judo player I'd say here, but if they've trained a year at a good place, that's probably enough foundation to change how they view Aikido.



A solid blue is fair. I just tend to go for purple because that's a safer bet. But yeah, a 2-3 stripe Blue belt should be good enough.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> If you find a real Aikido school, yes.
> 
> The problem is that there's so many bad Aikido schools out there that it makes finding a real one very difficult.
> 
> You're honestly better off just looking into a Judo or Bjj school. Especially Judo if you're looking for that Japanese flavor. Once you get your black belt in Judo (or Purple in Bjj), you can pretty much go to any Aikido school you want and apply their principles to what you already know.



More importantly if you are about defeating someone without maiming them bjj, judo, wrestling. Do that on a more consistent basis. 

Because you are not supposed to break your training partners.


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## JP3

Hanzou said:


> If you find a real Aikido school, yes.
> 
> The problem is that there's so many bad Aikido schools out there that it makes finding a real one very difficult.
> 
> You're honestly better off just looking into a Judo or Bjj school. Especially Judo if you're looking for that Japanese flavor. Once you get your black belt in Judo (or Purple in Bjj), you can pretty much go to any Aikido school you want and apply their principles to what you already know.


If you follow the above advice, which IS sound in my opinion, you've got to be the kind of student that doesn't just "do what the class is doing," but pays attention to what the instructor is saying and what actual concept they're trying to convey.

It's quite difficult to just "understand" the total sphere that is the principle of "Body Drop and Body Rise"unles you really dig in with your mind.


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## Acronym

Not intended as insult but do you catch a sweat or build any sort of conditioning when training Akikai?


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## MetalBoar

Acronym said:


> Not intended as insult but do you catch a sweat or build any sort of conditioning when training Akikai?


Depends on the school. Most dojos will probably do more for you than brisk walking but maybe not much more. Some will do much more than that. If you're primary goal is getting a good workout in as part of your training you will almost certainly get a more intense workout from boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, or other sport related arts and will likely get a better workout from other TMA's that are more focused on more aggressive techniques.


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## Buka

Anything is worth learning.  Wether it's embraced or influences you in some way, depends. But, what the hell, give it a shot. 

And right now, it ain't like you don't have the time.


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## isshinryuronin

Buka said:


> Anything is worth learning. Wether it's embraced or influences you in some way, depends. But, what the hell, give it a shot.



So true.  Well, maybe not "anything," but almost.  Regardless of your views on the efficacy of Aikido against a resisting opponent, there are many great elements in it.  Smoothness of motion, flowing with the opponent, concept of center, etc...  These can all be used in other MA.  Could you live without aikido?  Sure.  But when you study one art, and find similarities from another art, it helps reinforce those concepts.

Just yesterday, I was watching an ex-Gracie (personal) student BJJ blackbelt work out a little on arm options when a triangle choke is not doing its thing.  Based on the top guy's exact position, one arm or the other could be taken and put in a submission lock with a subtle shift of the hips.  I was much impressed of how an adjustment of just a few inches can lead from a choke with the legs to a submitting arm lock (with the legs now quietly assisting in providing body torque.)

I am trying to process this way of switching from one technique to a completely different one (without hardly moving) and how it can relate to karate.  Yes, I already use this general concept in karate, but seeing it in this fashion from such a different art as BJJ puts a new slant on it.  Perhaps some specific elements can be useful in some way to my primary art.  As Buka recommends, I'll give it a shot.


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## Hanzou

isshinryuronin said:


> So true.  Well, maybe not "anything," but almost.  Regardless of your views on the efficacy of Aikido against a resisting opponent, there are many great elements in it.  Smoothness of motion, flowing with the opponent, concept of center, etc...  These can all be used in other MA.  Could you live without aikido?  Sure.  But when you study one art, and find similarities from another art, it helps reinforce those concepts.
> 
> Just yesterday, I was watching an ex-Gracie (personal) student BJJ blackbelt work out a little on arm options when a triangle choke is not doing its thing.  Based on the top guy's exact position, one arm or the other could be taken and put in a submission lock with a subtle shift of the hips.  I was much impressed of how an adjustment of just a few inches can lead from a choke with the legs to a submitting arm lock (with the legs now quietly assisting in providing body torque.)
> 
> I am trying to process this way of switching from one technique to a completely different one (without hardly moving) and how it can relate to karate.  Yes, I already use this general concept in karate, but seeing it in this fashion from such a different art as BJJ puts a new slant on it.  Perhaps some specific elements can be useful in some way to my primary art.  As Buka recommends, I'll give it a shot.



Next time, have your personal student show you the Omoplata (shoulder lock) from a failed triangle. That's my personal fave combination from the Triangle set up.


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## Gerry Seymour

Acronym said:


> Not intended as insult but do you catch a sweat or build any sort of conditioning when training Akikai?


That will depend where you train and how much effort you put in. One of the most physically demanding classes Is be participated in was an Aikikiai class in Lisbon. Several others I’ve attended elsewhere were among the least demanding.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Next time, have your personal student show you the Omoplata (shoulder lock) from a failed triangle. That's my personal fave combination from the Triangle set up.


I think the Triangle is locked on there and he is just finishing with the arm bar.

But thread the Triangle ompaloompa armbar sequence is probably a must for learning the Triangle.


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## isshinryuronin

Hanzou said:


> Next time, have your personal student show you the Omoplata (shoulder lock) from a failed triangle. That's my personal fave combination from the Triangle set up.



Just to clarify - I think you misread.  This BJJ senior blackbelt is not my personal student, but was Royce Gracie's (if my memory is correct - possibly were contemporary students?)  We just practice/teach at the same location.


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## Tenshin

Best thing to do is go to an Aikido school and see first hand. I have been to many Aikido schools and there is mostly compliance, little to no resistance, and Uke throwing/projecting themselves. It has a different feel to how Judo/Wrestling/BJJ approaches things, I never had any of them do any of that.
All the Aikido guys are nice people, sincere, and enjoy the art from the ones I have met at different dojo.


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## dvcochran

Tenshin said:


> Best thing to do is go to an Aikido school and see first hand. I have been to many Aikido schools and there is mostly compliance, little to no resistance, and Uke throwing/projecting themselves. It has a different feel to how Judo/Wrestling/BJJ approaches things, I never had any of them do any of that.
> All the Aikido guys are nice people, sincere, and enjoy the art from the ones I have met at different dojo.


Tenshin, I love your avatar!


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## Tenshin

dvcochran said:


> Tenshin, I love your avatar!


Thats my 3 year old doing a collar choke


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## Flying Crane

I’ve visited two aikido schools that I was highly impressed with, and one that I was not.  

I’ve been told of one or two more, by people whose judgement I trust, that were also impressive and rigorous. 

So it depends on the school and the instructor (anyone ever heard that before, in the martial arts?) but yes, if you are interested in that approach, of course it is worth learning.

I always point out that people need to find a system that is a good match for them personally, along with a skilled and knowledgeable teacher with whom they have a good rapport.  No system is equally good for everyone, all other things being equal. 

I think it’s a mistake, at least as a beginner, to approach this with the thought of, I need to collect a background in certain kinds of fighting.  For most people, the issues I pointed out above are more important and you need to find that good fit, for you.  That is what will keep you training in the long run, and ultimately will give you the best chance of success in your training. 

People who are interested in competition have a greater need to seek out the blend of skills that best works within the competition rules.  But for most people who are not interested in competition it isn’t as relevant and isn’t something that needs to be worried about if you aren’t otherwise interested in pursuing multiple methods.


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## Hanzou

If you're looking for self defense, a school that's offering little resistance training isn't going to be of much use to you when you need to protect yourself. Unfortunately there's quite a bit of that in modern Aikido.


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## Ivan

Kajjustu said:


> Hey all genuine question here!
> 
> 
> Firstly I am from a FMA/Boxing background. I have heard of Akido and was Intrested.
> 
> How It all came about Is I searched how many styles does the Green Arrow/Batman the canary the DC comics and the regular show actually known they look at certain moves and try to conclude without doubt what styles they know.
> 
> 
> Anyways they showed a move and It said It was popular the moves he uses thier Is Akido and then showed something. It's widely believed Batman knows over 100 different types of Martial Arts and has trained for years and Is highly ranked In all of them. It's said he's familiar with any type of martial arts very non realistic I know!
> 
> I read up about Akido and It's Intresting. It's known as the 'Martial Art Of Peace'. Uses minimal force and Is more peaceful and Is not designed for the aim to purely kill or break bones. Taekwondo and others for example have deadly kicks. You might be the smallest guy In the room but learning how to tornado kick especially to the head Is deadly. Hit someone In the right place and giving It a good kicking could cause some serious damage.
> 
> From what I read Akido was designed more for self defense then Attacking Is about either playing dirty or doing whatever It takes to quickly end a confrontation It's not as brutal and offence orientated. That's why It has caught my attention I want to study Akido with other more lethal techniques/styles!
> 
> As compare to boxing where you smash your opponent and just flat out attack them.
> 
> Like I say boxing more of a attack/defend sort of fighting style Akido Is just do whatever It takes to really hurt them or put them on the ground or out them in some sort of vulnerable position get them out of action.
> 
> I've seen a guy called Akido flow on youtube and he said you can either be dirty like Muay Thai Elbows Knees kicks ect, or just throw them down get behind them and tackle them to the ground or hold them In a lock. You can either be brutal or alot milder.
> 
> 
> I like the way you deflect and get around poeple In Akido and try to put them In lock or Immobilise them temporarily.
> 
> It's not a martial designed to kill maim or break bones at first glance anyway.
> 
> 
> It's designed to put poeple down or defuse situations either using brutal techniques or softer ones. U can use a fist or slap them hard ect.
> 
> The philosophy of Akido I don't think Is kill or hurt like the others. Karate, Wing Chun, Ninjustu, Taekwondo, Copiera, Muay Thai, Hapkido, and alot of others I think are alot more aggressive to them.
> 
> 
> I also think Akido with other styles Is effective to.
> 
> 
> Here's my question though, has anyone known anyone to effectively or yourself If your skilled In Akido has anyone used It? Or Is It just a **** style to learn altogether?
> 
> 
> I've talked to numerous poeple and read alot about Akido and loads of poeple look down upon It. Stuff like Akido Is a waste of time ect ect. It's useless this and that. I was told by someone yesterday who has street fighting experience (basically freestyle fighting learned off gypsies bareknuckle and abit of Karate/Wing Chun/Judo experience.) His main experience Is backstreet fighting and a few martial arts.
> 
> 
> He used to have fights regularly and drunken brawls for money and for fun. He said out of all the various arts he's done he said Akido was awful. But he's never said he's done akido lol contradictory or what!
> 
> 
> Now from what I've read the pro's and con's of Akido!
> 
> Benefits:
> 
> *Not designed purely to maim Injure or kill
> *Lots of mild grabs and locks that can stop fights by applying pressure and fancy moves to dodge them.
> 
> *The way they move and flick someone over (tirae Marnargie) or whatever you call It.
> *good for fitness and footwork
> *learning anything will help against an untrained attacker.
> 
> 
> Cons:
> 
> *I've heard most of the philosophy Is about causing as little permanent damage as possible so It's not designed to be lethal and deadly. This Is why I think loads of poeple bash Akido.
> 
> I think it's more designed to put poeple down or give them a few painful injurys and then put them in locks If you wanted to. It's not designed to be bone crushing and lethal like Mauy Thai or taekwondo Is . It can be lethal If you want to add elbows and kicks and punches to sensitive parts you can do some damage. I think most Akido experts only use brutal techniques against poeple who are dangerous carry knives, ect then they just go full out kicks to kneecaps kick to the balls bone crushing blows ect. For milder opponents just put them in locks or twist limbs until they no longer a threat minimal damage martial art techniques ect.
> 
> *Most effective techniques I've heard take a few years to master properly and actually use. Basically to be able to use Akido to It's full potential have a wide range of sparring partners and do It for atleast a few years.
> 
> 
> And that's It.......
> 
> 
> 
> So has Akido helped you against armed Asilants?
> 
> Has Akido helped you against any street thugs?
> 
> 
> And Is Akido effective In general?
> 
> 
> Do you regret taking Akido classes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And PS: I know any martial art If well trained and a good fighter and good techniques and form are used It can be deadly. Someone I know who Is highly skilled In 3 types of Kung Fu said Thai Chi (thai-cheee) for example poeple think It's more like yoga lol. But he said It's an actual art depends on how you apply It. If trained In a combat way and you use It In a offensive way and you practice and spar alot you are actually leaning a martial art just they don't usually spare and It's seen as more of a relaxing technique.


You described the main problem with Aikido, in my opinion, right there. It's specifically designed to immobilise, but not hurt. I have disdain for this because out of all the confrontations I have had, my opponents never went easy on me, and the idea that I should is something I disagree with.

There is a very good book about Aikido called Angry White Pyjamas, a real page-turner. My father also has a friend who has been doing Aikido for a while and claimed he watched him defend himself from a drunk quite skillfully. But if I am honest, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage nowadays if you choose to train in martial arts such as Aikido. This is because it trains through repetition, and though I am a traditionalist, it's simply a method of training that won't allow you to use Aikido for self-defense until you have dedicated yourself to it for a long time.

In contrast, modern arts such as Boxing and Sambo, even though they're not necessarily made for self-defense, teach you things from your very first lesson that you can apply almost as soon you walk out of the lesson. Aikido has thousands of techniques - Boxing has 4 punches (with some slight variations) and 5 defenses at most. It also encourages sparring, and unless your school of aikido does too, you're already at a disadvantage compared to the average boxing gym.


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## O'Malley

Ivan said:


> It's specifically designed to immobilise, but not hurt. I have disdain for this because out of all the confrontations I have had, my opponents never went easy on me, and the idea that I should is something I disagree with.



That's actually a myth. Immobilisations are a relatively small part of the curriculum, and an even smaller part of the overall skills trained in aikido. Furthermore, the techniques themselves are not comparatively safer to an attacker. Actually, competitive arts (e.g. wrestling) are much better at neutralising an opponent without hurting him.



> This is because it trains through repetition, and though I am a traditionalist, it's simply a method of training that won't allow you to use Aikido for self-defense until you have dedicated yourself to it for a long time.



I don't really understand what you mean by "repetition" but most aikido training is through solo training and kata. However, there are many approaches and emphases to kata training: Pattern Drills: A Requisite Training Methodology Towards Combative Effectiveness – 古現武道 



> In contrast, modern arts such as Boxing and Sambo, even though they're not necessarily made for self-defense, teach you things from your very first lesson that you can apply almost as soon you walk out of the lesson. Aikido has thousands of techniques - Boxing has 4 punches (with some slight variations) and 5 defenses at most. It also encourages sparring, and unless your school of aikido does too, you're already at a disadvantage compared to the average boxing gym.



Mostly agree with this. Just a note on the "thousands of techniques" bit as it is imprecise. Modern aikido has actually very few techniques (about a dozen) performed from about twenty positions. The curriculum is very limited. I guess that you are referring to "Takemusu Aiki" (birth of martial), the idea that application of aikido principles can be expressed through an infinite number of forms, which is quite different.


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## Ivan

O'Malley said:


> That's actually a myth. Immobilisations are a relatively small part of the curriculum, and an even smaller part of the overall skills trained in aikido. Furthermore, the techniques themselves are not comparatively safer to an attacker. Actually, competitive arts (e.g. wrestling) are much better at neutralising an opponent without hurting him.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really understand what you mean by "repetition" but most aikido training is through solo training and kata. However, there are many approaches and emphases to kata training: Pattern Drills: A Requisite Training Methodology Towards Combative Effectiveness – 古現武道
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly agree with this. Just a note on the "thousands of techniques" bit as it is imprecise. Modern aikido has actually very few techniques (about a dozen) performed from about twenty positions. The curriculum is very limited. I guess that you are referring to "Takemusu Aiki" (birth of martial), the idea that application of aikido principles can be expressed through an infinite number of forms, which is quite different.


My father's friend described how all of his training was dedicated to locks and techniques that stopped an opponent from moving. As for the repetition, that's exactly what I refer to; lots of training to apply techniques and to perfect them, very little actual application. Many TMAs have a trend where partners show little resistance when techniques are applied, and Aikido doesn't have the commodity of sparring.


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## Flying Crane

Ivan said:


> My father's friend described how all of his training was dedicated to locks and techniques that stopped an opponent from moving. As for the repetition, that's exactly what I refer to; *lots of training to apply techniques and to perfect them, very little actual application.* Many TMAs have a trend where partners show little resistance when techniques are applied, and Aikido doesn't have the commodity of sparring.


Repetition is key in any martial training.  You won’t get good at any of this if you do it ten times and then decide your training is complete and finished.  Every time you train, you are doing repetition.  I don’t see how you can claim otherwise.  What I bolded above, you are describing application, which is what you are saying isn’t done, in the same sentence.  Would you care to clarify?

If you are really talking about resistance training, that is a different matter.  But when you stop repetition, you have stopped training.


----------



## Ivan

Flying Crane said:


> Repetition is key in any martial training.  You won’t get good at any of this if you do it ten times and then decide your training is complete and finished.  Every time you train, you are doing repetition.  I don’t see how you can claim otherwise.  What I bolded above, you are describing application, which is what you are saying isn’t done, in the same sentence.  Would you care to clarify?
> 
> If you are really talking about resistance training, that is a different matter.  But when you stop repetition, you have stopped training.


I disagree. 
Repetition is always training.
Training is not always repetition.

I could practice a sidekick 10,000 times a day, but the correct technique is worthless if I don't learn to apply it under pressure, or apply it in general. From my experience, TMAs don't teach you to apply techniques under pressure, *at least not until a much later level *compared to combat sports.


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## Gerry Seymour

Ivan said:


> You described the main problem with Aikido, in my opinion, right there. It's specifically designed to immobilise, but not hurt. I have disdain for this because out of all the confrontations I have had, my opponents never went easy on me, and the idea that I should is something I disagree with.
> 
> There is a very good book about Aikido called Angry White Pyjamas, a real page-turner. My father also has a friend who has been doing Aikido for a while and claimed he watched him defend himself from a drunk quite skillfully. But if I am honest, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage nowadays if you choose to train in martial arts such as Aikido. This is because it trains through repetition, and though I am a traditionalist, it's simply a method of training that won't allow you to use Aikido for self-defense until you have dedicated yourself to it for a long time.
> 
> In contrast, modern arts such as Boxing and Sambo, even though they're not necessarily made for self-defense, teach you things from your very first lesson that you can apply almost as soon you walk out of the lesson. Aikido has thousands of techniques - Boxing has 4 punches (with some slight variations) and 5 defenses at most. It also encourages sparring, and unless your school of aikido does too, you're already at a disadvantage compared to the average boxing gym.


Aïkido contains plenty of techniques that can injure. Early on, injuries were actually common in the dojo. What you see now is largely the result of a later, more philosophical approach.


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## Gerry Seymour

Ivan said:


> My father's friend described how all of his training was dedicated to locks and techniques that stopped an opponent from moving. As for the repetition, that's exactly what I refer to; lots of training to apply techniques and to perfect them, very little actual application. Many TMAs have a trend where partners show little resistance when techniques are applied, and Aikido doesn't have the commodity of sparring.


Aikido can have sparring. There’s really no reason it can’t be there.

As for the immobilizations, many schools practice always finishing with one. But the techniques used to get there are often destructive (uke uses breakfalls to avoid injury).


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## MartialMasterTeddy

If your looking for esoteric Inner Powers then a System of Mental Constraint and Restraints such as Ashtanga Yoga is better for you. Plus it can be done 100% alone without a partner.
But for MPA, if you only just stand in front of a mirror doing movements it doesn't make any sense. It is an extremely, extremely social Field and Field of Activity.


----------

