# anyone heard of this style?



## Katsu Jin Ken (Jun 21, 2004)

Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu karate
I heard that Motobu is alot like kempo but im not sure. If anyone has expierence in these arts or has knowledge of them a little help would be apprechiated. 

Got them from this website, http://www.shihokarano.com/styles.htm 
im training in that starting next sunday so i would just like some expierenced info and opinons not just what the instructors and websites say.


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## Martin h (Jun 27, 2004)

shito ryu is one of the major styles of karate in the world. Motobu-ha is the largest of the many shito ryu sub-styles. It is karate as straight as it can be.

Choki Motobu, the founder of motobu-ha, came from a long line of martialartists, and his family had a unique familystyle of its own (The Motobu was minor nobility, but Choki was the youngest son). Choki himself did NOT teach that to others , he teached the art taught to him from Kosaku Matsumora from tomari, and it is doubtful Choki even was seriously taught his familys style (being a "black sheep", streetfighter and general troublemaker before Matsumora accepted him as student).

Choki´s had a brother however, Choyu, who WAS taught the family unarmed fightingstyle, and who passed it on to non-family members, that style is today known as Motobu ryu. 

Motobu ryu is known as a style of okinawan kempo rather than a okinawan karate style, although exactly where the lines between okinawan kempo and okinawan karate is drawn is anybodys guess. Its not close to any american style of kempo/kenpo.

But motobu-ha shitoryu is mainstream karate.


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## Littledragon (Jun 27, 2004)

Martin h said:
			
		

> shito ryu is one of the major styles of karate in the world. Motobu-ha is the largest of the many shito ryu sub-styles. It is karate as straight as it can be.
> 
> Choki Motobu, the founder of motobu-ha, came from a long line of martialartists, and his family had a unique familystyle of its own (The Motobu was minor nobility, but Choki was the youngest son). Choki himself did NOT teach that to others , he teached the art taught to him from Kosaku Matsumora from tomari, and it is doubtful Choki even was seriously taught his familys style (being a "black sheep", streetfighter and general troublemaker before Matsumora accepted him as student).
> 
> ...


I was not aware of this style. Thanks alot for posting this.

Tarek


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## TimoS (Jun 28, 2004)

Martin h said:
			
		

> Choki Motobu, the founder of motobu-ha



Did Choki Motobu actually found the Motobu ha shito ryu ? I had always thought that he was one of the teachers of the founder of Motobu-ha. At least this page (http://i2i.freeuk.com/swmarshall66/shitoorg.html) seems to agree with that.


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## Martin h (Jun 28, 2004)

Hmm sorry (that should teach me to write something without doublechecking), Motobu (1871-1944) didnt actualy create the shitoryu substyle motobu ha. Shitoryu was created by Kenwa Mabuni (1887-1954), and the substyle known as motobu ha apparently got its name from being influenced by the style of choki Motobu, I dont know who formaly founded it.
Apparently the style Motobu taught was closer to Shorin ryu in what is today the Matsubayashi ryu substyle of shorinryu.

Motobu taught others what his teacher Matsumora taught him, but he also visited many other masters to deepen his knowledge of karate after he himself had become famous (and gotten away from is bad rep from younger days), with a few personal twists like every master. The old masters didnt realy care about style boundaries, and they influenced each others quite a lot.


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## Ippon Ken (Jun 28, 2004)

Real Motobu Ryu, Gotent-te in Japanese, or Uchinadi Motobu Ryu, is a royal court style closely related to the tuite of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu. It looks like fast Aikijujutsu and many weapons are also taught. It is true old school karate style, unlike Shito Ryu which is basically punch, kick, numerous kata, sparring karate. Two completely different animals. Real Motobu Ryu is very rare, like any good karate, and you won't find it in most places. You have to search.

The Motobu-Ha Shito dudes are Shito Ryu-ka who supposedly use Choki's fighting philosophies in their Mabuni Kenwa influenced Shito Ryu, a modern form of karate greatly influenced by Japanese methodology. Even their Naihanchi is different than Choki's. It is very similar to Shotokan. It is very unlike Matsubayashi, so I don't know where the supposed Choki Motobu influence comes from. I guess it's because Kenwa Shinshii did learn some things from Choki. 

They are required to learn up to 50 kata! Very unorthodox for Okinawan karate. It is Japanese karate. You might as well do Wado Ryu, because at least Ohtsuka understood the importance of circular motion, lateral movement and grappling.


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## harleyt26 (Jun 28, 2004)

when in japan Choki Motobu lived with the Kuniba family,in okinawa it was pronounced Kokuba, the elder Kuniba was taught by Motobu.Later on after Motobu had left for possibly Hawaii ,Kuniba taught this style to his son Shogo Kuniba,at some point Kenwa Mabuni came to stay with them for a while also and that is how Shogo Kuniba combined Motobu ryu and Shito ryu.You could probably get more accurate information on this subject from his yudansha sensei Louis Estes I am not sure of the e-mail address but a web search should get it for you.I studied this style for quite some time under the direction of Shogo Kunibas japan instructor Toshio Kaneta who does not have web access.I believe this style is more influenced by Mabuni than Motobu because Kuniba learned Shito ryu directly from Mabuni where his Motobu ryu knowledge was passed to him by his father.And being raised in a Japanese culture it all seems to have a more pronounced Shotokan or Japanese feel to it.Thomas Hodges


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## RRouuselot (Jun 29, 2004)

Martin h said:
			
		

> shito ryu is one of the major styles of karate in the world. Motobu-ha is the largest of the many shito ryu sub-styles. It is karate as straight as it can be.
> 
> Choki Motobu, the founder of motobu-ha, came from a long line of martialartists, and his family had a unique familystyle of its own (The Motobu was minor nobility, but Choki was the youngest son). Choki himself did NOT teach that to others , he teached the art taught to him from Kosaku Matsumora from tomari, and it is doubtful Choki even was seriously taught his familys style (being a "black sheep", streetfighter and general troublemaker before Matsumora accepted him as student). Choki´s had a brother however, Choyu, who WAS taught the family unarmed fightingstyle, and who passed it on to non-family members, that style is today known as Motobu ryu.
> 
> ...


Several points that need to be cleared up:

1) Choki Motobu did not found the style called Motobu-ha Shito Ryu. Kuniba Kosei started to call it Motobu-ha Shito Ryu. Shito Ryu was founded by Kenwa Mabuni and since Motobu was never a student of Mabuni I fail to see why Motobu would call what he does Motobu-ha Shito Ryu. Please refer to this link for Motobu-ha history: http://www.martialsource.com/shitohistory.htm

2) The Motobu Family were very high ranking nobility in Okinawa.

3) Choki was the son of his fathers mistress and not his wife, and for that reason was not given "formal" instruction in his families style. It was later in life that he became some what of a trouble maker.

4) The Motobu Family style was not passed on to a family member but rather it was passed on to Uehara Seikichi who just recently passed away at the age of 100. 

5) Motobu Chokis son now is one of the main instuctors in Chokis style of Karate


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## RRouuselot (Jun 29, 2004)

Katsu Jin Ken said:
			
		

> Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu karate
> I heard that Motobu is alot like kempo but im not sure. If anyone has expierence in these arts or has knowledge of them a little help would be apprechiated.
> 
> Got them from this website, http://www.shihokarano.com/styles.htm
> im training in that starting next sunday so i would just like some expierenced info and opinons not just what the instructors and websites say.


In regards to that website.....there is a man named Church on there......what a doozy he is. He is one of the old school BS artists. If E-Budo ever comes back on line do a word search for him. You will get loads of dirt on him and how he forged some scrolls to get rank in Motobu-ha.


Here is another Motobu-ha guy that is a joke:

http://www.wholearmor.net/MAIN/DOCS/MISC/FRSOKEBIO.HTM

Only a liar and an idiot western martial artist would call himself or use the title of "Soke".

From the site:
_Besides his martial arts training, Soke Riedner also pursued an academic career, earning his B.A. and M.A. from Bob Jones University, Another M.A. from Columbia Bible College, and finally his M.Div., PH.D. and L.H.D. from Great Plains Baptist College._

This is interesting:

*Bob Jones Bends
*By Guide Kimberly Hohman

Dateline: 03/06/00

In an interview with Larry King on Friday, Bob Jones III, the president of the now-famous University which was at the center of a George W. Bush controversy, made an announcement that surprised many:  Bob Jones University's policy against interracial dating, which they believe to be against the teachings of God, has been dropped.  In his words, "We don't have to have that rule. In fact, as of today, we have dropped the rule."  




So sudden and unexpected was the announcement that even current students of the university were said to have gasped at an assembly in the school's auditorium where they watched the interview on CNN's "Larry King Live." 

This interview came after a March 3 announcement on the school's website responding to recent media attention.  In the letter, Bob Jones, III addressed the issue of religious freedom as well as asking the nation to decide if their institution is "racially bigoted" or not. Jones, III stated in the letter, "We work hard at promoting racial harmony in our local community."  I guess that's as long as that racial harmony doesn't get _too_ harmonious, if you know what I mean. 

*A Multiracial Activist's History with BJU*

Bob Jones' students weren't the only ones who were surprised at the announcement.  Shortly after King's interview with Jones ended, James A. Landrith, Jr. of _The Multiracial Activist _posted the following message to our very own Race Relations forum.

Landrith has his own history with Bob Jones University.  In addition to maintaining an extensive collection of links to articles and information about Bob Jones University, Mr. Landrith, who is interracially married himself, sent an application to BJU in 1998.  The University's response to his application was not unlike their standard defense of their policy.  In a letter to Landrith, Jonathan Pait, the university's community relations coordinator reiterated their policy all the while maintaining that, "Although there is no verse in the Bible that dogmatically says that races should not intermarry, the whole plan of God as He has dealt with the races down through the ages indicates that interracial marriage is not best for man. We do believe we see principles, not specific verses, to give us direction for the avoidance of it."


I wonder if they let woman vote at this university yet?:boing2:


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## JAMJTX (Jan 28, 2005)

Motobu Ryu Karate should not be confused with the Uchinadi Motobu Ryu of Okinawa.  

Choki Motobu likely learned some of the families art, but studied karate outside of the family, as has already been discussed.

One of Motobu's students was Kokuba Kosei, who later moved to Osaka.  Kokuba Sensei had a dojo at his house and began teachin Motobu Ryu Karate.  Motobu lived in the Kokuba house and taught there.  Kokuba Sensei inherited the style when Motobu passed away.  Mabuni, the Shito Ryu founder also lived at the Kokuba house and taught there.

Kokuba Sensei had a son, Kokuba Kosho.  The japanse pronunciation of his name is Kuniba Shogo.  I believe it was Kuniba Sensei who coined the term Motobuha Shito Ryu.

The Kuniba family now continues his legacy with the Kuniba Kai (www.kunibakai.com), you can also find historical information at www.butchvelezagk.com and the International Seishinkai Karate Union web site (url not known right now).

The style was introduced to the U.S. by Richard P. Baillargeon in 1964.  This was actually the first introduction of any Shito Ryu to the U.S.  Mr. Baillargeon started the NKJU in 1974 after resigning as U.S. Director of Seishinkai www.nkjui.org


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## RRouuselot (Jan 29, 2005)

Martin h said:
			
		

> Choki´s had a brother however, Choyu, who WAS taught the family unarmed fightingstyle, and who passed it on to non-family members, that style is today known as Motobu ryu.
> 
> 1) _*Motobu ryu is known as a style of okinawan kempo rather than a okinawan karate style, although exactly where the lines between okinawan kempo and okinawan karate is drawn is anybodys guess.*_ Its not close to any american style of kempo/kenpo.
> 
> But motobu-ha shitoryu is mainstream karate.


    1) Actually it is not known as either. Motobu Ryu is known as a form of Okinawa Te.

 Read this thread http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21276 to find out more about Motobu Choki


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## thepanjr (Mar 17, 2005)

nope i never heard of it


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## kamishinkan (Mar 30, 2005)

Just a comment on a previous post on this thread concerning Albert Church..... The so called "forged scrolls" have been read by Guy Power, sensei, and it was in Kuniba's hand, also, unless Church sensei was soooo good at forgery, he also has rank and title certification from Hayashi sensei as well, oh, and also rank certificates from Okuyama sensei in Hakko Ryu as well, oh, and a Kanban naming Church sensei as Kanagawa prefectual leader of the Seishinkai with Kuniba sensei standing next to it!
you can view these images at
www.geocities.com/aiki_kempo/documents.html
and 
www.geocities.com/aiki_kempo/churchcertificates.html
if this does not work go to www.kamishinryu.net and follow the links
These copies are old and rough but you can make them out if you know what you are looking for. I am sure this will not end the accusations though!


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## JAMJTX (Jun 1, 2005)

It is true that Church did have SOME credentials from Kuniba, Hayashi and Okuyama.  The problem comes with the claims surrounding the scroll, and the "Sokeship".

1) Kuniba said he naver issued this scroll
2) no one has an original copy of the scroll for verification.
3) Only part of the scroll was translated.  Much of it can not be translated.  Had this been written by a native Japanese, there would not be so many kanji that can not be translated.  It does not appear to have been written by someone was educated in the Japanse language and use of kanji.  If one wants to call the scroll a "forgery", it would have to called a "bad forgery", not a "good forgery".

There is a handbook written by Church and his claim was that Kuniba also collaborated on this book.  But the same translational problems exist in the book. Incorrect kanji, non existent kanji, etc.  

Church did meet and train with Kuniba in Japan.  It appears that he thought he would be running the Seishinkai when he got back to the U.S. Then when he got back and learned there already was a U.S. Rep and several others in line ahead of him, then this scroll "appeared" and "Kamishin Ryu" was born.  Church never had contact with Kuniba ever again after leaving his dojo in Osaka.  Kind of odd for his representative to not even send him a letter when he got home.

The kanban was issued essentially as recognition as a member dojo.  The kanban says nothing about Kamishin Ryu.

Again, Church did get a lot of good training from Kuniba, Hayashi and Okuyama.  So if what his followers are teaching today are true to the traditions of these 3 men, then there is good training to get with them. 
But the truth remains, Kuniba did not issue this "Sokeship" scroll.


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## JAMJTX (Jun 1, 2005)

On elast item:

So far, this "scroll" has only been "verified" by people with ties to Albert Church. I don't know anyone of them that ever even met Kuniba Soke.
They all have an interest in either promoting the art or trying to salvage Church's reputation.

There has never been a translation done by an independent 3rd party.
Also, any reputable person hired to verify a document, would never use a copy of a copy of a copy.  They would insist on an original document.  Being that there appears to be no original document, actual authentication by a reputable 3rd party is not possible.


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## rompida (Jun 2, 2005)

As someone who practices a descendant style of Church, I definitely have an interest in this thread now.  I'm not taking a position on the issue, as I don't have enough info to do so.  However, there are a couple of points that I would like to make about Mr. Church.  

* my understanding is that GM Church's style was recognized as a new style, mainly because it was NOT Japanese in origin, but was further developed in Japan. His style was recognized of being Chinese-Korean-Japanese origin.

*the original style that kamishin ryu was based on was from his training with Master Kin Chi KOOH, which was a shaolin style of kung fu, with added influences from tae kyon.  Then... it was mixed with Soke Kuniba's and Ryuno Okuyama's Japanese styles.  

*if someone has the motivation to do so, I imagine that Church's widow could supply you with documentation.  I believe she still lives in Charleston, SC if anybody wants to look her up.  

Can I verify any of the above?  Nope, other than anecdotes from my instructor and GM Church's students that I have trained under.  I have often wondered about the lineage of our style though, so I welcome any CONSTRUCTIVE debate and/or discussion.  

Lastly,  RRouuselot, before calling out anyone and calling them a BS artist, how about doing some research yourself first?  and I wouldn't call ebudo research, anymore than I would call martialtalk a reliable source for research.  Too much opinion and bias.  

just my $.02


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## arnisador (Jun 6, 2005)

Well, as websites go, E-Budo is pretty definitive, I'd have to say. Lots of great knowledge there. But yes, more could be done!


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## Gene Williams (Jun 10, 2005)

Let me try to shed some light on Motobu-ha Shito-ryu. It was founded by Kosei Kuniba (Kokuba), who had studied with Motobu Choki and Mabuni. His son, Shogo Kuniba became Soke upon Kosei's death. Shogo Kuniba headed the Seishin Kai, of which Motobu-ha Shito-ryu was the official ryu. Motobu ha Shito-ryu has nothing to do with Motobu Ryu, which is the ryu of Motobu's son, Chosei. Motobu ha Shito-ryu is straight karate with some jujutsu integrated into the bunkai. In the late sixties and early seventies, Richard Baillargeon and Joseph R. Ruiz were in Seishin Kai under Shogo Kuniba. Baillargeon wanted to start his own organization and run it in this country instead of having it run from Japan. With Kuniba's blessing, Baillargeon started NKJU with Kuniba as advisor. I came to SSK/NKJU from Shorin ryu under Kota Higioshi (who went back to Japan) about the time Baillargeon was forming NKJU. The style taught was Motobu-ha Shito-ryu with Kuniba doing clinics and seminars and summer camps. The kata of NKJU were the Shito ryu kata as done and taught by Kuniba. After a time, Baillargeon wanted to make some money, so NKJU opened up to anybody. It was the biggest mess you ever saw with TKD, Shotokan, Kung Fu, Hunky Dunky ryu, and everything else that brought money. Joseph Ruiz, the number 2 man in NKJU, maintained Motobu-ha Shito ryu as his style, but was tolerant of all the other groups. That is how so many kata came to be on the syllabus, Baillargeon wanted every ryu represented, which produced the odd phenomena of Shito and Shorin stylists learning hyungs like Chung Mu and Chung Jang! Predictably, Ruiz and Baillargeon had a parting of the ways, mostly over money but also over requirements. Ruiz founded IKKU, was made Hanshi by Kuniba, and continued teaching Motobu ha. Richard Kelley, myself, and several others went with Hanshi Ruiz. Until Kuniba died, Ruiz taught Motobu-ha kata and relied upon Kuniba for advice and counsel. When Kuniba died, everyone went crazy. Ruiz formed his own ryu, called Kotosu ha Shito ryu, brought in a bunch of Chuzo Kotaka's kata, and began to tamper with the traditional kata. Kelley left, formed Kitakaze Bujutsu kai, and joined Richard Price, Kuniba's designated succesor (Kuniba put this in his will and made notarized public statements to that effect). I left and just kept teaching Motobu ha Shito-ryu as I was taught it in the seventies and continue to do the kata as Kuniba taught them then. There are not many of us teaching what we call Motobu ha, but if we didn't go with one of the many Shito ryu groups that are still squabbling over lineage, that is the only thing to call it. I will probably join Price's group, because I believe that is the closest to what Kuniba actually taught, but I have been pretty turned off by all the factionalism and squabbling. Price does not whine or squabble, and does not feel that he needs to prove anything to anyone. I like that. So, there you have it. Why did Kuniba designate Price as Soke instead of his son, Kozo? I don't know. Maybe someone else does. I have trouble believing anything anyone tells me. Gene Williams


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## JAMJTX (Jun 12, 2005)

Gene,

Thanks for your input and for trying to keep up the legacy of Shogo Kuniba's Karate.

For the record, when reading these boards, I often take Gene's word over my own when we have varied versions of these earlier histories.  He is correct in saying that it is hard to beleive a lot of what people say.  There has always been a lot of politics and agendas here.  I also think his assessment is largely accurate.

As for as why Mr. Price was named Soke instead of the son of Soke Kuniba, here is what I heard:

Mr. Price was named Soke and given authority in the U.S. But Soke Kuniba's older son (Kosuke?) was placed in charge in Japan.  Kozo now runs the Kuniba Kai with schools in the Japan, the U.S. and other countries.  I don't know why the Kuniba family is no longer affiliated with the Seishinkai.

I said about all I can re: Albert Church.

Gene, would you say that after the Baillargeon/Ruiz split, that Ruiz stayed truer to the teachings of Soke Kuniba?  All that I know about him now is that he is with the World Head of Family Sokeship Council, which doesn't make much sense to me if he truly does have such credentials from Kuniba.  I was told, however, that Mr. Ruiz sent a student up to see Soke Kuniba with a blank check and returned with the 9th Dan / Hanshi certificates.  But then again, like you said, you never know what to believe.


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## Gene Williams (Jun 12, 2005)

Hey, Jim. Good to hear from you. When Baillargeon and Ruiz split, Ruiz threw out all the NKJU kata that were not Motobu ha Shito-ryu and taught only the kata Kunuiba taught. I think he kept one or two Kotaka kata that he liked as supplementary kata, but not as requirements. Ruiz continued to travel and to train with Kuniba right up until Kuniba died. About the Hanshi promotion...Ron Queen, Richard Kelley, and Ron Downton went up to Virginia to see Soke Kuniba. They, and all the rest of us without Ruiz' knowledge, wanted him promoted to 8th dan. We said nothing about Hanshi, and the guys that went up did not say anything about it, either. We planned a surprise ceremony in which we were going to give it to him. They took an IKKU diploma (Ruiz' organization). Kuniba promoted Ruiz to hachi dan, signed it and stamped it with his stamp, but not Seishin Kai stamps. He also gave him the Hanshi title on IKKU paper and signed it and stamped it with only his signature stamp. I don't know what kind of money changed hands, if any. That is how I understand what went on from Kelley, Queen, and Downton. I have no reason to believe they are lying. Kuniba and Ruiz friendship and training relationship goes way back. Kuniba liked Ruiz, thought him to be a premier kata practitioner and a fine, if maverick, martial artist. They cut up a lot together, bummed cigarrettes from each other and drank together. Kuniba did draw some lines, however. Once Ruiz left SSK, Kuniba never invited him back. We all wondered about that, especially after the Ruiz Baillargeon split. They remained friends until Kuniba's death. Now, about Ruiz in later days. Leaving his dojo was the hardest thing I ever did. I had trained under two fine high ranking Japanese sensei before I met him, but I found him to be a better sensei than either of them. When he was training and teaching, there were few who knew and performed kata as well as him...Kuniba, Hayashi, Demura, Higaonna...those are the people you would have to seek out to better his kata. His reverse punch was simply death in a gi. Ruiz was the one that attracted people to NKJU and was responsible for its syllabus. But, he needed recognition...he wanted people around him praising him, and he had always wanted to found his own ryu. Once Kuniba died, it was like someone threw a switch. When he began to change kata to suit him, brought back the "modern" Kotaka kata, and began calling his style Kotosu ha, I could not stay. I was his senior dojo student and had been there 15 years, so it saddened me and pissed him off. He will not speak to me to this day. All that World Head of Family Soke crap...that is just his need for recognition. It is an embarrassment to me because objectively he doesn't need that. He's forgotten more Shito-ryu than most of us know. But, it is a personality thing, his weakness. We all have our own. All that being said, Joe Ruiz is as good a martial artist as you would ever want to meet and better than most. As far as Church goes...I never heard his name mentioned once by Kuniba, Ruiz, Baillargeon, or Bill Price. I was there for 15 years. Gene


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## JAMJTX (Jun 12, 2005)

Gene,

I had no idea that it was Mr. Kelley who went up to get the Hachi Dan/Hanshi papers signed.  I was told the story about "some students" of Ruiz's who brought up the unsigned IKKU diplomas and a blank check.  The story was that Kuniba filled in the balnk check for the amount that he wanted and then signed the certificates.
Now I see flaws in that story.  I seriously doubt Shihan Kelley would have done that.
It is unfortunate that Hanshi Ruiz went the "Sokeship Council" route.  Not just for his own self, but for his students who list him as thier teacher and then have to try and explain that away in order to not be tainted themselves.
Over the last few years I have also made some poor decisions about affiliations without fully checking out the organizations.  I was hoping that perhaps that was the case with Mr. Ruiz.  I will have to answer for my affiliation decisons for a long time and perhaps rightfully so.  But I learned some valuable lessons.


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## Brother John (Jun 13, 2005)

http://www.shihokarano.com/history.htm


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## Gene Williams (Jun 13, 2005)

Curch and his problems have been discussed ad nauseum on this and other forums. The history of this yet another made up, eclectic system sheds no light on current issues with Motobu ha and the post Kuniba fallout. Nice outfit Riedner is wearing, though.


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## Gene Williams (Jun 13, 2005)

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Real Motobu Ryu, Gotent-te in Japanese, or Uchinadi Motobu Ryu, is a royal court style closely related to the tuite of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu. It looks like fast Aikijujutsu and many weapons are also taught. It is true old school karate style, unlike Shito Ryu which is basically punch, kick, numerous kata, sparring karate. Two completely different animals. Real Motobu Ryu is very rare, like any good karate, and you won't find it in most places. You have to search.
> 
> The Motobu-Ha Shito dudes are Shito Ryu-ka who supposedly use Choki's fighting philosophies in their Mabuni Kenwa influenced Shito Ryu, a modern form of karate greatly influenced by Japanese methodology. Even their Naihanchi is different than Choki's. It is very similar to Shotokan. It is very unlike Matsubayashi, so I don't know where the supposed Choki Motobu influence comes from. I guess it's because Kenwa Shinshii did learn some things from Choki.
> 
> They are required to learn up to 50 kata! Very unorthodox for Okinawan karate. It is Japanese karate. You might as well do Wado Ryu, because at least Ohtsuka understood the importance of circular motion, lateral movement and grappling.



Hey there, Ippon Ken. You're a little off base in your assessment of Motobu-ha Shito-ryu, but you have raised an issue that is still a bone of contention within Shito-ryu. Actually, the Motobu ha that Kuniba brought from Mabuni was very Okinawan. In fact, all of Mabuni karate early on was very Okinawan. When he moved to Osaka in 1927 or '29, he became a very popular instructor and Shito-ryu exploded around Osaka. He produced a number of shihan, who then spread out through Japan and Europe, mostly, and began teaching their own brand of Shito-ryu. Some stayed close to the original, and some did not. In Japan, the longer Shito-ryu was there, the more Japanese influence got brought in. Meanwhile, on Okinawa, there was and still is Shito-ryu that only teach the original 26 or 28 kata that Mabuni taught, plus the few he developed. Kuniba trained with his father, Motobu, Mabuni, Sakagami, Myagi and later, Nagamine of Shorin. The main influence from Motobu is in applications and fighting techniques, not kata. Itosu/ Mabuni/Myagi remained the kata influence. Now, Motobu-ha Shito-ryu is nothing like Shotokan or Wado (I trained in Wado for four years while in Nashville BEFORE coming to Shito-ryu, and in Shorin before that). Demura and his group, Itosu Kai, brought tons of JKA stuff into their ryu so that at one point many of his dojo were learning both the Shotokan version of the Pinan (Heian) and the Okinawan version as requirements. This was ridiculous, and Demura finally cut that out. However, the Itosu Kai group's kata look a lot like Shotokan, something that bothers the rest of us. I don't know of but a couple of  Shito groups that require more than 20 or 25 kata and Kotaka's group is one. No group requires 50 kata, but some have that many on their syllabus, but most of those are just alternate versions of standard kata. Now, about circular motion...that is something Kuniba was known for, so I don't know where you are getting your info. You have pointed out one thing, there is a lot of variation in Shito ryu from a lot like JKA to absolutely nothing like it. The Motobu ha I teach is nothing like it, in fact, I have students who were dan rank in JKA who have a great deal of trouble making the switch. I require about 25 kata from white belt to Godan. Gene


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## kamishinkan (Jul 10, 2005)

Just another comment (I have not been on the site for some time) on the Church argument over if Kuniba sensei sanctioned Church sensei or not. It just so happens that I have PICTURES of Kuniba sensei himself cross ranking one of Church sensei's black belts at Church sensei's dojo in 1980 (right after Church sensei died). Kuniba sensei came down and went as far as giving a certificate backing to Catherine Church (Church sensei's wife) as Kaicho of her own organization continuing teaching her "version" of Church sensei's Kamishin Ryu. I also have a photo copy of a Nidan certificate given to one of Church sensei's black belts at that time (I can put my hands on the original at anytime). As far as the "scroll" only being partially translated, it is because of the poor quality of the *copy* not because of the poor quality of the *kanji!* As far as the the person who translated what could be recognized on the scroll, you can question Guy Power sensei yourself and see if he is biased or if he is truthful in his translation. I find it funny that so much space is used on these forums trying to prove/disprove Church sensei's claims. Once again I have pictures that would answer most of this, (as far as Kuniba sensei goes) but I am sure someone will come up with something else to keep arguing the point. If anyone is studying a version of Kamishin Ryu and is concerned about the truth of our history, DON'T BE, I can prove almost all of Church sensei's claims(a couple of things have not been proven OR DISPROVEN). There will always be the naysayers!


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## Ippon Ken (Jul 21, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Hey there, Ippon Ken. You're a little off base in your assessment of Motobu-ha Shito-ryu, but you have raised an issue that is still a bone of contention within Shito-ryu. Actually, the Motobu ha that Kuniba brought from Mabuni was very Okinawan. In fact, all of Mabuni karate early on was very Okinawan. When he moved to Osaka in 1927 or '29, he became a very popular instructor and Shito-ryu exploded around Osaka. He produced a number of shihan, who then spread out through Japan and Europe, mostly, and began teaching their own brand of Shito-ryu. Some stayed close to the original, and some did not. In Japan, the longer Shito-ryu was there, the more Japanese influence got brought in. Meanwhile, on Okinawa, there was and still is Shito-ryu that only teach the original 26 or 28 kata that Mabuni taught, plus the few he developed. Kuniba trained with his father, Motobu, Mabuni, Sakagami, Myagi and later, Nagamine of Shorin. The main influence from Motobu is in applications and fighting techniques, not kata. Itosu/ Mabuni/Myagi remained the kata influence. Now, Motobu-ha Shito-ryu is nothing like Shotokan or Wado (I trained in Wado for four years while in Nashville BEFORE coming to Shito-ryu, and in Shorin before that). Demura and his group, Itosu Kai, brought tons of JKA stuff into their ryu so that at one point many of his dojo were learning both the Shotokan version of the Pinan (Heian) and the Okinawan version as requirements. This was ridiculous, and Demura finally cut that out. However, the Itosu Kai group's kata look a lot like Shotokan, something that bothers the rest of us. I don't know of but a couple of Shito groups that require more than 20 or 25 kata and Kotaka's group is one. No group requires 50 kata, but some have that many on their syllabus, but most of those are just alternate versions of standard kata. Now, about circular motion...that is something Kuniba was known for, so I don't know where you are getting your info. You have pointed out one thing, there is a lot of variation in Shito ryu from a lot like JKA to absolutely nothing like it. The Motobu ha I teach is nothing like it, in fact, I have students who were dan rank in JKA who have a great deal of trouble making the switch. I require about 25 kata from white belt to Godan. Gene


Okinawan Shito Ryu has always been a great style. It is very similar to its Shorin cousin. Thanks for the clarification. As for circular motion it is inherent in all good karate. I was just stating the fact that a lot of the Shito Ryu seen in the USA and at tournaments is a modern more Japanized variety. These versions are very low-stanced and linear, not unlike Shotokan. I won't comment on Church or any of the political infighting, as I the style I practice is notorious for the same crap.

I was clarifying the fact that Motobu Ryu and Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu were two different animals completely. Thanks for the corrections on the overgeneralizations I made, and the truth is I have the utmost respect for any good karate style.

Speaking of animals. Do you still teach the "White Possum" kata? Later, Gene-san !


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## Gene Williams (Jul 21, 2005)

Yes...White Possum lives


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## robertmrivers (Aug 8, 2005)

Hello all:


Just my .02...

There are several factions of Motobu ha...as everyone knows. Politics are not exempt from even the greatest martial arts style. There is Price Sensei's group, Ruiz' Sensei's group, Kuniba derivatives like Church and then his derivatives (I have video of Kuniba demonstrating at Church's Memorial Embu...why would he do this if he didn't support Church) as well as the Seishinkai headed by Soke Harada in Osaka and Kunibakai headed by Soke Kuniba. The International Division from Japan of both Kunibakai and Seishinkai have now found renewed interest...which is what Kuniba Shogo Sensei wanted in the first place. His early death was unfortunate, but, things are now starting to straighten up and from what I understand, past Motobu ha practitioners are happy where they are now and growing their respective organizations without near the "name calling" and "kai-bashing" that existed in the early 90's. 

I can't remember all of the questions...so I will just share some things I have learned...

In my opinion, Motobu ha is the most Okinawan of the Shito Ryu. We can thank the Kuniba family for this. When Okinawan masters see footage of it, they say it looks similar to Kobayashi (Shigeru Nakazato), probably due to Kuniba's study under Choshin Chibana. Naturally, there are some differences between the several Motobu ha factions...but they are essentially all on the same track. I have studied both Shobayashi and Goju as well as others over the past 15 years but will always stay true to Motobu ha Shito Ryu as it is a perfect combination of Naha te and Shuri te and still retains much of its Okinawan principles though it has developed on mainland. 

Shogo Kuniba's father DID study with Motobu Choki...Motobu Chosei Sensei TOLD me this himself (last week!). In fact, he told a story of how his father, Choki, had dojo in Tokyo and Osaka...but he stayed mostly in Tokyo. If anyone was moving out of Tokyo to Osaka, Kuniba's Seishinkan was the ONLY dojo in Osaka he would recommend. (I hosted Motobu Chosei this past week and our small group had the honor of training with him exclusively). 

My only advise is to just keep training, never be complacent with the history "someone else" gives you. Research the truth and find out the truth for yourself. It is not hard...you just have to WANT to do it. To all of the Motobu ha/ Kuniba ha practitioners out there... keep training and focus on the art as well as the history and philosophy that go with it. A lot of people went through a lot of hardship to bring the arts we love to us... honor them by giving the world a positive impression of the art...the art I love is a topic on these forums (in a negative way) far too often and it is getting old. Less chat, more mat... see you all in the dojo...

Any questions just ask...I might be able to answer...

Rob Rivers
Motobuha Shito Ryu Seishinkai
Meishi ha Mugai Ryu Suimokai


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## Gene Williams (Aug 8, 2005)

Thanks Rob. That adds good info to a real confusing scene. Hope to see you soon. Gene


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## Joseph Ruiz (Dec 19, 2006)

I kept my mouth shut a long tine, but no more. I just came across a letter sent in to Martial Talk dated June of 2005 by Gene Williams. He was a member of NKJU at one time but never went to any of the camps so he did not know what went on in the NKJU. True the NKJU had many styles of martial arts but the main style was motobu ha shito ryu. In 1974 when Baillargeon broke away from Soke Kuniba for reason I will not go into, he formed the NKJU, open to all styles. I was asked to be the ***'t Director of the NKJU. I was responsible for the teaching of Kobudo, Kempo and to maintaining the Empty Hand kata's. So you see it was open to all styles from the begining and it was not for money as Mr. Williams stated. As far as me leaving Soke Kuniba and Seishin Kai, the reason is my business and no one else. As far as me being invited back, I was invited back many times. I consider Soke Kuniba my last true master. Now about Koto-Su Ha Shito Ryu Karate Do, I founder this system after Kuniba died to give my teachers, Kuniba, Imuzukawa, Aihara the credit for what I have learned from them and not Chuzo Kotaka, as Mr. Williams stated. He also stated that I temper with  the traditional kata's which is a bald face lie. I reserched many of the kata's and found its Chinese roots and this is what I teach. The backbone of any organization is it's students willingness to learn and to grow in the martial arts, and have an open mind, which Mr. Williams don't have. He also thinks that I don't train anymore, I got news for him at 63 years old I am very active and still on the floor. Now about the World Head of Family Sokeship Council. I was inducted into the WHFSC Hall Fame with the recommendation of Soke Edward Badiang of Hawaii. The WHFSC dose not govern the martial arts. This is an organization where the martial arts elite such as Seiyu Oyata, Kim Soo, Gary Alexander, George Anderson, Sid Campball, Masaaki Hatsumi and many, many more. And last but not least Soke Frank Sanchez who is the founder of the WFFSC which I have great respect for. I am prond to be a member of this great organization. We come together from all styles and different parts of the world once a year to celebrate the martial arts, and recognize each others accomplishment to the martial arts. If anybody wants recognition for his deeds in life, I'm sure you do Mr. Williams. As far as why you left, I know why and so do you. I've earned my recognition, in fact when Soke Kunio Tatsuno took over Seishin Kai after Kuniba death he recognized my organization, my rank and my years in the martial arts. Need I say more...Anybody who wants to know the truth and get it from the horses mouth, Me, here is my address and phone number. Mr. Williams if you have not figured it out by now, you have awakened a sleeping gaint.
Soke Joseph R. Ruiz,Hanshi...407 Clearwater Rd.  Belvedere,SC 29841
Phone (803) 279-7122  Cell (803) 341-0328  E-mail soke@bellsouth.net


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## Cirdan (Dec 20, 2006)

> E-mail soke@bellsouth.net



Nice email adress. Do you have S-O-K-E tattooed on your knuckles as well?


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## cstanley (Dec 21, 2006)

Looks like to me, after reading all that, that the guy was paying Mr. Ruiz some pretty high compliments about his karate. What is this need people have to be a "soke?" It doesn't even make sense outside Japan and the traditional ryu. Any Westerner using that term doesn't understand it.


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## Mrluckyman (Jul 31, 2008)

Hello, 
I am Ricky Adams. Been practicing a short while (over 36 years) in the same style, practicing the same kata, and not changing a single one.
I have studied under the following: Soke Shogo Kuniba, Soke Teruo Hayashi, Soke Kenzo Mabuni, Soke Joe Ruiz, Soke R.P. Baillargeon, Shihan Thomas Bentley, Shihan Kiyoshi Yamazaki, Sensei Morio Higaonna.

Afraid you have a few facts incorrect. I was there, actually there physically, at Baillargeon's home at the first organizational meeting of NKJU, when Kuniba called and ask Baillargeon to stay in SKKU.. it was, after all, Baillargeon who founded SKKU in the U.S. I worked out with both Baillargeon and Soke Ruiz for many years.... learned over 100 kata, bunkai oyo, and henka waza from those Gentlemen.... It was Kuniba who wanted to raise omenjo fees/membership fees in the U.S. and Baillargeon refused and was dismissed....he wasn't trying to start his own style, he was forced into it..since Baillargeon already had the National Jiu Jitsu Union, he just added the word Karate and came up with National Karate Jiu Jitsu Union NKJU.... (Baillargeon's wife (Kenai) made the first patch by hand embroidering Karate on a Jiu Jitsu patch in Kanji... Soke Ruiz has that patch to this day)..... Kuniba realized his mistake and tried to re-unite the SKKU.... Years later they did make amends (that must be when you were training, years later.) and Kuniba agreed to teach seminars, make promotions, etc.... BUT, It was Kuniba's idea!.... I watched Soke Ruiz test in front of Kuniba in 1974 for his Yondan in SKKU. I personally heard Kuniba, Soke tell a few students that if Ruiz were in Japan, he would be made Hachidan right then (that was 1974) Keezletown, VA SKKU Summer Camp (I was "1974 SKKU Outstanding Student of the Year") Now as far as Soke Ruiz, you are correct Soke Ruiz was the draw for NKJU, but they had another important person Dai Sempai Thomas L. Bentley.... he was my immediate sensei....He was responsible for MANY dojo joining..... he would take myself and Ben Parker to other dojo and we would perform for the sensei various high ranking kata and Sensei would close the deal..... It WASN'T for money.... Baillargeon was very well off and didn't NEED the money.... I witnessed him turning down many Fly-By-Night instructors....They would teach seminars for ANYONE who wanted to learn....Maybe that's why you thought it was a money thing?

Soke Ruiz has been practicing Karate longer than you and I have been alive (unless you are 60)....I trained with Shihan Kiyoshi Yamazaki, arguably one of the most authentic martial artist in the world.... I know alot of kata but had never had anyone else of high rank see them to verify their authenticity.... I paid Shihan Yamazaki a very large sum of money to simply sit and watch me perform over 100 kata (yes, it took hours) he intently watched every move and took notes on the names of some of the kata which in his words, "He had heard of, but had never seen!" Yamazaki Shihan had NOTHING negative to say even going so far as to suggest the inclusion of some in his syllabus. Soke Ruiz is responsible for 90% of my kata knowledge and has enabled my winning the Japan Karate-Do Ryobu Kai International Kata and Kobudo Championship 5 Times....I would say Soke's Karate is THE BEST I have ever seen and he is the MOST KNOWLEDGABLE instructor in the Martial Arts alive today.

Now about Albert Church..... Never met the man, however Soke Baillargeon and I had MANY conversations about him and Rodney Sargonoski (probably mispelled) Soke "B" as I called him was always straight forward and called a "spade a spade" pardon the pun....He told me Church was an Orange Belt with him and no higher. And that promotion certificate and authorization to begin his own style from Kuniba doesn't say that in Kanji.... It says, Shogo Kuniba doesn't care or doesn't mind if Albert Church begins his own style.... NOT CARING and authorization are two different things.....A good salesman can sell and ice box to an eskimo and I simply surmized that Church and Sarkonoski were just that salesman who sold a substandard product to the consumer..... BUYER BEWARE!

As for the reasons Soek Ruiz left NKJU.... why not ask him, he is still living and I am sure would tell you!....


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## Mrluckyman (Jul 31, 2008)

"Any westerner who uses the term Soke doesn't know what it means." 

As told by SOKE SHOGO KUNIBA personally.... while I was training with him! Soke is not translatable in english as westerners are not thought to have the capacity to understand the term... however, losely translated Soke means "Family Head/Head of the Family" as such, only those practicioners who considered their Style Founder the head of their "FAMILY" would refer to them as such. Soke R.P. Baillargeon was just that the Head of the NKJU Family of Martial Artist. I was one of them and we truly felt that way about Soke "B".... the fact that we used a Japanese term as a title only shows how much we westerners imersed ourselves into our training, desiring to be as much like the Japanese as possible. Immitation is the highest form of flattery.

Soke Ruiz on the other hand should also be called a Martial Arts Meijin or person who has transformed from the natural fighter into "one" who can actually create fighting techniques which will kill. If you have ever been on the receiving end of his technique you will agree.... I have a personal demonstration of Soke Ruiz performing on 8mm film..... he is moving so fast even on stop frame he is still a blur.

In fact he is a tattoo artist also but S-O-K-E- is NOT tattooed on his fist. He should get it made into a ring and imprint in on your forehead for being disrespectful of someone you obviously don't know!


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## Sukerkin (Jul 31, 2008)

Might I ask to whom the above two posts were directed?  

If at mister *cstanley* then I'm afraid you were wasting your breath - note the 'Account Closed' notification in the users header.

Also, you're a tad late.  Twenty months isn't a record for a Zombie thread but still an impressive resurrection .


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## Mrluckyman (Jul 31, 2008)

The above two post were for the general knowledge of those who read these posts..... once a statement is made, be it the truth or a lie.... is there a time limit on the statement....I just joined MT... should I disregard those post, that others have read in the past and not point out the veracity of those statements made? .... Is there a time limit on the truth? mister cstanley had people read his post, regardless if he is a member or not.....if you read the earlier post and formulated an opinion on the contents of their posts then it is directed to you also. Not you must choose, as if you care, which point of view you care to regard and disregard.


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## Kacey (Jul 31, 2008)

Mrluckyman said:


> The above two post were for the general knowledge of those who read these posts..... once a statement is made, be it the truth or a lie.... is there a time limit on the statement....I just joined MT... should I disregard those post, that others have read in the past and not point out the veracity of those statements made? .... Is there a time limit on the truth? mister cstanley had people read his post, regardless if he is a member or not.....if you read the earlier post and formulated an opinion on the contents of their posts then it is directed to you also. Not you must choose, as if you care, which point of view you care to regard and disregard.



_Can_ you answer?  Certainly.  However, most people ignore posts of the age of the one you responded to.  Sukerkin's point, I think, was that disputing cstanley's posts, at this point, is not going to have any effect on cstanley, as he is no longer here.


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## kamishinkan (Apr 26, 2009)

I am afraid to do this BUT.....here it goes. I have been speaking to the person lately who was the most against the claims of Church and Kamishin Ryu earlier in this thread and he is now in support of all of the claims made by Church. The proof is in the documents.

According to Mrluckyman, the document in question is a 3.5 ft long scroll. It has been translated anddetermined to be in Kuniba's script and DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE that Soke Kuniba "doesnt care if he (Church) starts his own style". This is just plan ignorant and continues the nonsense that has been disproven over and over again. The scroll clearly is a "recognition" type scroll of Church's Kamishin Ryu and names him as a Seishinkan rep. He also was given a 3 ft wooden Kanban that names Church as the kanagawa prefecture Kaicho of the Seishinkan (not Seishinkai - there was a difference in the 60's). Again, everyone wants to believe what they want but those who argue against Church's claims do not have the documents to match the documents given to Church. 

And the statement that Church was only an "orange belt"....Oh boy. I am right now staring at an HMAF bulletin dated April 27th, 1967 in which Church's picture was featured on the front cover with Ryuho Okuyama, Shogo Kuniba and Jon Root. In the bulletin Church was recognized as SANDAN (Third Degree Black Belt) in the HMAF. This was BEFORE he went to Japan. Church's school, the Kyokai Karate and Jujutsu Dojo, was also featured in the Hakko Ryu periodical in Japan. In this same bulletin, Church was mentioned more than once as the South Carolina rep for the HMAF and was made the Japan Correspondant to the HMAF while in Japan. There was clearly a falling out over politics between Church and Baillargeon but facts (documents) speak louder than one persons tales.

As usual, Mr. Church gets looped in with Rod Sachronowski, it has been proven that in Mr. Sachronowski's own words he and Church were not together other than teaching at Church's dojo a couple of times and learning some basic Jujutsu with one of Church's black belts.

I find it funny that people from Church's side could write in these forums forever and discredit the name of those who follow these men, but we don't. But over and over the same old (worn out) arguments over Church are brought up. Look at the documents......Interestingly, the old argument was Kuniba never wrote it, then it was Church forged it, then it was well, Kuniba did not know what he was signing now it is Kuniba wrote a 3.5 ft long scroll just to say he did not care what Church did..... Come on. 

 By the way, last year I met with Kozo Kuniba, no problem, I am friends with Butch Velez, no problem, I am meeting with Bill Price next month, again no problem. It seems if there was a problem, I would know.

As far as the Soke title, It is supposed to be a traditional title for arts that were founded in the East and passed by lineage succession (ask Don Angier). As far as new arts that are formed in the West and use the title, well, probably not the best term to use. Terms like Kaicho, Kaiso and Soshi would all be better terms that mean similar things and are not looked down upon (by some).


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2009)

Is this a record? A thread started five years ago still gets posts on and off in the intervening years?

Btw I have formed no opinions whatsoever on this subject roflmao!


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## rompida (Apr 26, 2009)

Like he said, there isn't a time limit on finding and stating the truth and clearing up lies and misconceptions.  I say kudos to you.

I learned from one of Church's students over 15 years ago.  I came across this thread several years ago and read it in horror, and can say that the claims against Master Church made me question everything I had learned.  

I am very glad to hear this, and I know a lot of people that will be eager to hear more from you regarding this matter.  Perhaps you can post a copy of the bulletin you referred to?

Thanks for your humility and honesty.

best regards to you,

Brian


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2009)

I can honestly say I didn't read it other than the date at the top of the OP lol!


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## kamishinkan (Apr 27, 2009)

Rompida,

 I am sorry that people who post on these forums made you question what you learned. I can assure you, there is no need to worry. These arguements have all been refuted. 

 If you are talking about the HMAF bulletin, let me know. I can try to scan it in as a jpg and try to post it. If not I would be willing to send a copy of a picture in an e-mail to you. Just let me know what you are looking for.


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## kamishinkan (Apr 28, 2009)

I have the HMAF front cover scanned but I am unable to post it as an attachment or a file image. I may post it on my website to give it a URL to post a link to.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2015)

It takes 7 years to dislike my post wow.   I'm impressed.


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## Cirdan (Aug 18, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It takes 7 years to dislike my post wow.   I'm impressed.



Wow I got one too! But mine is 9 years old. I feel so loved


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