# The Security Threat That is the Homeless



## The Martialist (Feb 19, 2008)

This is a contentious and controversial issue; hence this seemed like the appropriate thread.

It is my assertion that the homeless -- street people in general -- represent a personal security threat _as a demographic_, and must be dealt with on these grounds.  This is not bias, prejudice, or some sort of lack of compassion speaking; it is instead simply a recognition of reality.

I feel so strongly about the issue that I've created a PDF file that can be downloaded *here, completely free*.  It's not linked to my main website and is not intended to promote anything; it is simply the compilation of my own experiences over more than a decade of regularly dealing with the homeless issue.  I hope you find it helpful, though it is likely to spur strong debate as well.

It is not for those who are easily offended and contains mature language.


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## LuzRD (Feb 19, 2008)

is this a "i hate people that fit this general description and you should to" sort of thing? or is it a more unbiased observation of actual facts?

what size is the pdf? you say that you have over a decade dealing with the homeless issue. in what capacity is your experience? is the mature language in the form of quotes, or how you express yourself?

i know that these questions could be seen as negative, however i am unclear about the details of the document and id like more information without having to download unknown files.
thank you


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## The Martialist (Feb 19, 2008)

It is not an "I hate certain people document," no.  It examines the statistical support for the assertion that street people, as a demographic, form an increased threat to personal security and thus should be "profiled" as such by the individual.  It then explains the common ploys used by street people to con you out of your money and/or set you up for crime (in other words, precursors to assault).  

The PDF file is a 72-page booklet that is just under 600Kb, not a large document by any standard.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 19, 2008)

Dear The Martial list I for one have been homeless before and living on the street is cold and ugly. Most homeless people that I have met here in Miami were not cut throats. You have a better chance of being mugged by a thug than the average homeless person. I for one am greatful that time has passed.


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## jks9199 (Feb 19, 2008)

Phil,
I just did a quick scan of your pamphlet.  It's OK, not great.  (I fully anticipate being attacked by you after this post.)

You took seventytwo pages to basically say "Some homeless people may be dangerous, either due to mental illness, or outright greed-motivated criminal violence."  Congratulations.

Your "expertise" with the homeless is apparently based on running the unfortunate gauntlet that occurs on too many urban streets.  You don't really support many of your arguments except by personal anecdote.  A literal couple of pages where you quote from a few sources (including a decade old survey) doesn't really make your argument.  

You don't really have anything impressive or new in what you've written.  Yep, lots of beggars, especially aggressive panhandlers will LIE.  Shockers.  Guess what?  I'm aware of instances where people will fake being homeless to beg.  

I would also suggest that your presentation of a "high hands readiness" stance ends up being more aggressive than necessary.  With slight modifications, like turning the palms outward, and keeping them both a bit more forward (instead of tucking the rear hand tight into the body) you maintain a ready posture, without the aggressive appearance.  Forceful doesn't have to equal aggressive.


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## The Martialist (Feb 19, 2008)

> Dear The Martial list I for one have been homeless before and living on the street is cold and ugly. Most homeless people that I have met here in Miami were not cut throats. You have a better chance of being mugged by a thug than the average homeless person. I for one am greatful that time has passed.



Could you find for me some statistics related to "thugs" as a demographic, please?  My booklet includes statistical data related to the homeless.


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## The Martialist (Feb 19, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Phil,
> You took seventytwo pages to basically say "Some homeless people may be dangerous, either due to mental illness, or outright greed-motivated criminal violence." Congratulations.


 
Actually, I took seventy-two pages (about ten less when you subtract facing pages and formatting) to state this, then _support it_ with reason, statistics, and personal experience, and then I listed the common ploys one encounters when dealing with such street people -- ploys accumulated through ten years of dealing with these people on an all-too-frequent basis.



> Your "expertise" with the homeless is apparently based on running the unfortunate gauntlet that occurs on too many urban streets. You don't really support many of your arguments except by personal anecdote.


 
I support my arguments through citing statistics and news reports (often from sources sympathetic to the homeless) and then do indeed cite the results of ten or more years of my presonal experience with them, yes.



> A literal couple of pages where you quote from a few sources (including a decade old survey) doesn't really make your argument.


 
That "decade old survey" is part of a quote from Jim Grover.  It is not cited as evidence of any assertions; it is part of _his_ assertions, quoted for context and because I thought he was making a very valid point regardless of the numbers.  I cite several contemporary resources in the course of making my arguments.



> You don't really have anything impressive or new in what you've written. Yep, lots of beggars, especially aggressive panhandlers will LIE. Shockers. Guess what? I'm aware of instances where people will fake being homeless to beg...


 
I was not aware that one must be totally original in order to offer something of value.  Your post contains nothing new, impressive, or particularly original, either.  Should you not have made it?


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## Sukerkin (Feb 19, 2008)

Mr. Elmore, I think you may be on a losing wicket here. 

You can argue your position as vehemently and as long as you wish, of course (unless you cross the line and get yourself banned) but your reputation precedes you and thus colours everyones responses.


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## Archangel M (Feb 19, 2008)

While many homeless people suffer from some form of mental illness, Id be hard pressed to believe that their propensity toward criminality or violence is statistically any more or less than a "housed" group of people. The majority of mentally ill are not violent.


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## Logan (Feb 19, 2008)

Why stop at "street" people? Why not just say people in general are a threat?


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## The Martialist (Feb 19, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Mr. Elmore, I think you may be on a losing wicket here.
> 
> You can argue your position as vehemently and as long as you wish, of course (unless you cross the line and get yourself banned) but your reputation precedes you and thus colours everyones responses.


 
The truth certainly is very upsetting to many people.  It remains the truth regardless.


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 19, 2008)

The Martialist said:


> The truth certainly is very upsetting to many people.  It remains the truth regardless.


Truth is subjective.
To hundreds of thousands, the Negro is inferior, the Jew is greedy, the Italian is slimy and the Hun is feared yet backward. To some America is the enemy, to others a Savior.
Truth my fair scribbler, is quite a different animal, to all those who claim it.

Your truth is, the homeless are dangerous. My truth is, they aren't. I don't see them 8 blocks ahead and go through evasive manoeuvres, cross the street, or start walking with my street sword hanging out, hand on scabbard and 3 musketeer hat on. I've walked dangerous streets and never had a problem.

Statistics are also a joke. 95% of them are made up, and the other 25% aren't reliable either. Sources must be considered. The MMA nuts insist that 90% of the fights go to the ground, for example. They however fail to take into consideration that those stats come from the FBI, who got them based on police reports on arrests, and since one is usually arrested face down with hands behind back, well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the data gaps there. So you data is subjective an if I felt like it I could counter it but I need lunch and that is much more important to me.

Your writings Phil are entertaining, and reveal much about you and your core beliefs. Some think you're innovative, others a ripe nutter ready for buttering. I'm in the middle. Some of your stuff has good intel, some seems rather alarmist and needlessly wordy. This piece, is the later, in my opinion.

Now if you'll excuse me, I see a guy with a tin cup walking down the street and I must duck into this phone booth to ripmy shirt off and reveal my SuperDude uniform so I can make a citizens arrest, before he lets Al Qeda into my home and sodomizes my puppy.

TaTa!

---------------------------Whooooooosh!


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## MA-Caver (Feb 19, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Dear The Martial list I for one have been homeless before and living on the street is cold and ugly. Most homeless people that I have met here in Miami were not cut throats. You have a better chance of being mugged by a thug than the average homeless person. I for one am greatful that time has passed.


As I too have experienced FIRST HAND the life of the homeless for several years I have to say your expose' Phil, is nothing more than an angry, frustrated rant against people whom you resent because they've nothing better to do than to accost people who are more fortunate than they are. 
This quote from the article is inaccurate. 





> Let&#8217;s be clear on something from the outset, too. Our popular entertainment media love to push the mythology of the down-on-his-luck average homeless Joe, somebody to whom fate has simply been cruel and who, through no fault
> of his own, finds himself penniless. As we learned in the preceding section, that&#8217;s a load of crap. Most people who are homeless are homeless because they have mental or substance abuse issues.
> The media also love to spread the myth of the homeless family &#8212; a poor, noble underclass eking out an existence under our overpasses and on our subway grates, desperate to make it in a cold and uncaring world. This is ridiculous and not at all borne out by the demographics of homelessness in the United States.


While the media does romanticize the homeless and the down and outs... it's not a myth. I myself have had to experience misfortune (true, most by my own making) and destitute poverty and had to "live off the government's tit" as Lt. Dan would be fond of saying. 
But it's a scenario that does exist. Not all homeless are drug addled monsters waiting for the unwary victim to pounce upon and rob them of their money and life. 
Many of them do have drug, alcohol problems yes. It would seem that many would prefer to stay in that miserable state and thus go the easy route and panhandle for sometimes pennies on a daily basis to get their next round of drugs and booze, rather find a full time job, there are many who go to the daily labor employment offices to work a full day doing the jobs that nobody else wants to to and earn a meager pay from modern day Fagins and get their nightly fix of drugs/booze and FOOD. It's the best they can do. If they can earn a couple of bucks on the side asking people for a hand out then hey, it's two dollars less they have to worry about. 
But the chances are that you'll be attacked by one of them who OPENLY approaches you and asks as politely as they know how to is minimal. 
The mentally ill ones? Well gee, those poor bastards have it worse. Not only do they got the day to day struggle of surviving on the streets but they got their own inner demons to deal with as well. 
Most of these people come out of abusive homes, war veterans, or those who's state welfare funds have run out to the point they cannot afford their meds anymore. They are probably very unaware of their appearance and bodily odors. If they were in the right mind they'd care and probably try to find a place to get clean clothes and a bath. But they're not. 
Am I asking you to pity them... to an extent yes. Pity them that folks like you don't petition the government to help them more. Instead folks like you want to call them garbage, human refuse, or as they called them in Demolition Man "Scraps", you want to berate them and hate them and be angry with them. Pity, pity for you Phil. 

I'm not in that world anymore of the homeless, but I remind myself that everyday that could change. It could change for any one of us. 
Jesus said: "The poor will be with you always..." he was right. So long as dead or dying multi-millionaires prefer to give to their own via colleges and private medical centers (who would turn away a homeless person because they've no insurance). So long as the government spends money on a war that is becoming increasingly unpopular by the week instead of finding a solution to help it's poor and tired and huddled masses... 
There will be poor. There will be homelessness, there will be the mentally insane who can't get the help they need because everyone is too busy turning them away as they walk into the stores for their own subtenancies. 

I get approached by homeless people alot. My state of awareness is the same as it is with the nicely dressed guy asking me for a light. Using the Homeland Security color code, I give these homeless folks a yellow... the nicely dressed guy asking for a light... yellow. The only time it escalates to a "orange" level is when they become argumentative at my inability (not always refusal) to help. 
If I got a couple of bucks that I know I'll probably blow somewhere else ... I'll give it to them. Because dammit, sometimes they *are* just looking to get a burger at McDonalds or Burger King... just like I really was when I was "down there".  

Ever go *really* hungry Phil? Ever go really hungry and not have a dollar to buy that .99 cent burger? Try that for a few days in a row. Then deny someone the next time they ask.

Sorry Phil, I normally like you and your articles... but this one... well... it just pissed me off with your anger and blind hatred.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 19, 2008)

Blimey!  The things you learn somedays - I never would've dreamed that some of my compatriots here have had it so tough economically at one point or other in their lives.  I feel for you chaps and can only hope that you got _something_ positive from your time on that savagely rough road.

It makes me feel all the more what I said to my missus the other night whilst we watched "The Pursuit of Happiness" viz, sometimes I am so very glad that I do not live in America.  If you're riding high then it's wonderful but if you're not ...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 19, 2008)

[QUOTECould you find for me some statistics related to "thugs" as a demographic, please? My booklet includes statistical data related to the homeless.][/QUOTE] Dear Martial list I do not need to rely on stats because I lived it. In my experience here in Miami the homeless are not the ones endangering people. And not all Homeless people are black drug addicts nor are they suffering from mental illness. I have been homeless before and I have worked with the homeless with the network Food not bombs a food drive that helps the homeless. The thug is a person who is out to harm a person for ill will intent or to rob them. In my experiences these are the people who are endangering lives be it through the cross fire of stray bullets or actual robbing for money. 
But thats the difference between you and me you talk about stats and I lived watching my back.
Go ahead and say what you will I have no need to respond.


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## Big Don (Feb 19, 2008)

The number of homeless is pitifully small next to the number of illegal aliens, whose mere presence makes them criminals. I'd be far more inclined to worry about them than the homeless. 
My mom's husband worked in several high end restraunts on Maui, 70% of the waitstaff was homeless...BY CHOICE. They lived in tents on the beaches and showered and changed in the employee locker rooms. Oh, and their wages while not CEO level were higher than average for the jobs on Maui at that time and they made healthy tips...


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## MA-Caver (Feb 19, 2008)

Big Don said:


> The number of homeless is pitifully small next to the number of illegal aliens, whose mere presence makes them criminals. I'd be far more inclined to worry about them than the homeless.
> My mom's husband worked in several high end restraunts on Maui, 70% of the waitstaff was homeless...BY CHOICE. They lived in tents on the beaches and showered and changed in the employee locker rooms. Oh, and their wages while not CEO level were higher than average for the jobs on Maui at that time and they made healthy tips...



That's one other factor is that many of these homeless people, choose to be without a roof over their heads... but they *are* working none-the-less.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2008)

The Martialist said:


> The truth certainly is very upsetting to many people. It remains the truth regardless.


 
Opinionated yes, the truth as seen by Phil most certainly but the actual truth....doubtful.

Statistics can be used to prove or disprove a lot of things but without the actual study and formulas used behind those statistics they are pretty useless 

And by my statistics 9 out of 10 people may or may not agree. 

Catch Ya Later Phil


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## shesulsa (Feb 19, 2008)

Truth is, at best, subjective and relative. The truth of The Martialist is that all not like him are to be feared, regarded as the enemy and profiled.

I have fed the homeless. I have helped pregnant homeless women find suitable clothing from a large pile of donations.  MY truth ... from my actual, physical, one-on-one encounters with the homeless is this: the majority of these unfortunates are, indeed, mentally ill ... it is clear as a bell that there's something a bit "off" about most and I don't mean the odor. I mean most appear, sound and behave as though they have some kind of disability.  Others it was clear were just on drugs or alcohol.

The majority of the homeless people I have been side-by-side with, served food to never wanted to tell their story. They wanted to be seen as human beings like you and me, just ... without a roof.

Homelessness IS a tragedy.  Desperate times will lead people to desperate actions and the smaller portion of the homeless who are unequivocally criminals, homless by choice, cannot be denied their existence.

But to lump all under one umbrella is a classic, socially misguided tenet of the unitarian diatribe most expect from authors like The Martialist.

Should you fear everyone? Absolutely not. Should you take care in your surroundings at all times? Of course. I don't think anyone needs a volunteered handbook on fearing women who wear purple any more than they need a hole in the head ... which is, I'm sure, why it's volunteered rather than published for sale.

Have a nice day.


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## Lisa (Feb 19, 2008)

Oh how these threads make me giggle.


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## newGuy12 (Feb 19, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Oh how these threads make me giggle.


I'm just glad that my first impression (by reading the title of the thread) was faulty.

I thought to myself, "Oh no, here it comes!  George Bush is claiming _*War on the Homeless!*_" 

Yet another in the "War on" series!

Whew!  What a relief that its just some pdf file penned by a regular citizen!


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## Grenadier (Feb 19, 2008)

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Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. 

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## terryl965 (Feb 19, 2008)

Lisa said:


> Oh how these threads make me giggle.


 
Me to Chewy me to.


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## The Master (Feb 19, 2008)

Such a delightful read, as always Mr. Elmore. I wonder, given your affection for statistics, what you would make of these?

According to the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, an estimated 195,000 veterans are homeless on any given night, while nearly 400,000 experience homelessness during the course of a year.

Forty-seven percent of them served during the Vietnam era. More than 67 percent served for at least three years, and 33 percent were stationed in a war zone, according to the National Coalition for Homeless Veterans.

By the Numbers

America's homeless veterans

400,000: Approximate amount of estimated homeless veterans in America, or 23 percent of the nation's homeless population

89: Percentage who received an honorable discharge

67: Percentage who served three or more years

47: Percentage who served during the Vietnam era

46: Percentage who are age 45 or older

17: Percentage who are post-Vietnam veterans

15: Percentage who are pre-Vietnam veterans

Source: National Coalition for Homeless Veterans

http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm


I would also ask, what have you done for these brave lads who in many cases went to war to defend your right to write, and have been cast aside by a government that sees them as numbers and not human beings? Have you worked in a soup kitchen? Donated to Amvets? Helped out at a veterans hospital?  

Have you truly considered what it is that you fear when you come across these roving packs of violent beings there in the Arctic wasteland of Syracuse NY? That 1% chance of crime there must truly be something to fear.
http://syracuse.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

Have you, Mr. Elmore, ever actually been homeless?

Have you ever spent any time living on the street, even if only for the "feel good, warm and fuzzy" nature of the well meaning but misguided college student perspective?


Your writings, as I stated, are entertaining. They are also however inaccurate, biased, long winded and incomplete.  More research, and a less "right wing" approach is suggested.

Good Day.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 19, 2008)

I too was homeless for a while.  I didnt rob anyone or occost people for cash.  I wasn't mentally ill, (well moreso than I am on any given day of the week) or a raging alcoholic.

What I was was motivated to get up and get out, which I did.  Truth be told, some days when the rat race has me down, I contemplate throwing my hands in the air and doing it again... Does that make me a security risk?


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 19, 2008)

I've been mugged twice by homeless people (or at least they smelled homeless/showerless). & the muggings weren't successful. Yes, they got *NINJA'D!!!!*  Girl, you know it's true!


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## thardey (Feb 19, 2008)

90% of the homeless people I've talked to have a Bible that has been written in, marked up, and in short, read and studied.

Just thought I'd throw in a relatively useless fact about homeless people from a security standpoint. 

I feel better now.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 19, 2008)

thardey said:


> 90% of the homeless people I've talked to have a Bible that has been written in, marked up, and in short, read and studied.
> 
> Just thought I'd throw in a relatively useless fact about homeless people from a security standpoint.
> 
> I feel better now.



Many homeless people I know think that bibles make great rolling papers...


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 19, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> I too was homeless for a while.  I didnt rob anyone or occost people for cash.  I wasn't mentally ill, (well moreso than I am on any given day of the week) or a raging alcoholic.
> 
> What I was was motivated to get up and get out, which I did.  Truth be told, some days when the rat race has me down, I contemplate throwing my hands in the air and doing it again... Does that make me a security risk?



Yes :cheers:


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## Kacey (Feb 19, 2008)

When I initially began to respond to this thread, I went looking for statistics on the homeless; then I realized that, no matter what source I used, what the statistics said, someone will always be able to find a different set of statistics... so I decided, instead, to tell you some stories about homeless children I know.

Travis is 12 years old; he is in 7th grade.  He is homeless - not because his parents are shiftless deadbeats, but because while his mother works full-time, his father has cancer, and has spent the last several years in treatment, never in remission long enough to get a job.  All of their money goes to his treatment; there is none left over for housing.  Because Travis is still in school, special programs are available to Travis and his family; they currently live in a run down motel, all 3 of them in one room, with a microwave from a thrift store, a dorm-size refrigerator, and a 2-burner hot plate as their kitchen.  Periodically, the motel they live in decides they no longer want semi-permanent residents, and Travis and his family move to a different motel.  Since his father got sick several years ago, the longest Travis has lived in one place is 7 months.  All of their belongs _must_ fit in their one working vehicle, as they never know when a motel will tell them to move.  At this point in time, Travis lives outside our district; however, as his last permanent address was in our attendance area (when he was in 4th grade), he is allowed to continue to attend school in our building.

In addition to dealing with his family's homelessness, Travis must deal with his father's on-going illness.  His mother works as many hours as she can, so that they can pay for something - anything - besides his father's medical bills.  His father is often ill and unable to do much but lay there - but he has to get up to take Travis to and from school; given that Travis lives outside our attendance area, there is no school bus that goes to his home. 

Still, Travis is one of the lucky ones - his parents asked the school for help when they were first evicted, and were given the information they needed to access the programs that help Travis to stay in school.  He has a place to live, a place with power and running water, a place he can consider, however temporarily, home.  Other students in my school are not so lucky.

Several years ago, I had another homeless student.  His name was Daniel.  Daniel lived with his grandmother until she was evicted when he was in 6th grade - so rather than be on the streets with an 11 year-old, Daniel's grandmother sent him to live with an aunt in another state.  That lasted until February of the next year, when then aunt began to experience financial problems of her own and sent him back to his grandmother.  She found a place to live (sort of) in a friend's garage.  There was no heat except a space heater (and this is Colorado, remember); they had no phone, although the friend who owned the garage would take messages.  The friend also let them use the bathroom and kitchen.  Still, they lived in a garage, and that's where they stayed most of the time; except for the bathroom and kitchen, they weren't really welcome in the friend's house, because his family needed the room.

And yet another child - David.  David's mother lost her job in a massive lay-off, and had no savings.  David and his mother ended up living in her car - their only belongings those that would fit in the car.  His mother didn't want anyone to know - but it became apparent fairly quickly that David wasn't bathing.  His mother refused aid from any of the resources the school referred her to, but did allow David to come to school early so he could shower in the locker room, and wash his clothes in the Home Economics room.  Generally, his only meals were the breakfast and lunch provided by the school; it's impossible to cook in a car, and while fast food is cheap, it's not cheap if you have to eat it several meals a day.

And yet another - one of my TKD students (former, at the moment - although every so often he comes back).  Josh has a psychiatric diagnosis, including paranoia and an anxiety disorder.  Josh is 14 years old.  He has been placed in residential treatment facilities for juvenile psychiatric patients more times than he can remember - but puberty is playing havoc with his medications, and every so often his life overwhelms him, and he runs away from home.  His mother reports him missing, leaves the doors unlocked, notifies the family, and prays.  Eventually, he gets tired of being homeless (last time, he lived under a bridge underpass in downtown Denver, for a couple of weeks, until he got hungry enough to call his uncle), and he finds a way to get home.  But while he's out, he is as homeless as the rest - and yes, he is emotionally disabled, due to hormonal imbalances in his brain - but he's not violent, and he doesn't steal; in fact, the most common event that causes him to come home is some other homeless teen beating him up for his food, his shoes, his cardboard box.

These are the homeless people I know.  They are not criminals; they are not deadbeats; they are not alcoholics; they are not drug addicts.  They are people who have met with misfortune in their lives, and have yet to find a way to rise above it.  They are people who do not have the support system than many of us take for granted, who have nothing to fall back on when things go wrong.  They are the face of homelessness as much - in many ways more than - the stereotypical street person, panhandling down the street in filthy clothes, carrying an open bottle in a crumpled paper bag.  They are ordinary, everyday people who have less good luck than the rest of us.  They are not _groups_, they are not _stereotypes_ - they are _*people*, _and they deserve our compassion, our assistance, and our help - not condemnation.  

Certainly, some homeless people do fit the stereotype referenced in the article - but attempting to force all people into the stereotype of "homeless" is like trying to fit all members of an ethnic and/or racial group into the stereotype of that group.  It is meaningless, and it is prejudicial - and it often prevents the majority, who are *not* representative of the stereotype, from receiving assistance from society, because they are lumped in with the minority that _does_ fit the stereotype, and similarly, thrown away by those who do not look beyond the stereotype.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Feb 19, 2008)

You all make the same sad fluffy mistake. You want to look at these pathetic creatures as human beings. You seek to put a name, and a face to these pitiful wretches, and that is your failing. Putting a name, a face, the spark of dignity to them means you can't pull the trigger and send them to bum hell like they deserve. No, by looking upon them with pity and that greatest of failings, compassion, you risk allowing them to get into your heart. Once there, it's hard to fight back against the writhing bum mobs that will come up from the sewers, and out of dark allies, and down rusting and crumbling fire escapes to beat you and rob you and rape you and kill you, unless you fight back by beating them to the punch. The only way you can do that is to be a Martialist and cut them down at 50 paces. Show these scum no mercy. Shoot them like the dogs they are, cut off their begging cups and chop off their blocks! Phil details in his articles how to do it, why you should fear them, and which colour trench coat goes best with a short sword optimised for inner city bum twackery. I for one am greatly appreciative of his wit, his insight, and his ideas so that I can wino proof my vino once and for all. I even wear my AOL survival tin between my bum cheeks to ward off the possibility of an attack from the rear.

Remember, the homeless are the enemy! Wade into them. Spill their blood. Shoot them in the belly. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do.


Wibble.


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2008)

Hmmm...well, I haven't read the entire link that was posted.  I did skim thru some of it.  IMHO, street people are no more of a threat than some punk looking to mug me to get some cash for a quick fix.  When I'm out and about, I always do my best to be aware of my surroundings.  I go to NYC once a year around holiday time and I see a huge number of homeless people.  Do they bother me?  I could count on one hand, the number of times that I've been approached by someone asking for money or a light.  Actually, I'm approached more by regular people trying to hand me a flyer or promotional paper.  I usually don't make eye contact with these people and if I do and they ask if I'm interested in what they have, I say no and keep walking.  I don't give them a chance to get me to stop.

Are homeless people bad?  IMO, I don't think they are.  I really do feel bad for these people.  Just this past Dec. when I was in NYC, my wife, sister, brother in law and I were sitting at a table taking a quick break and I saw a woman digging thru the trash, pulling out a cup, half filled with some drink and a container with a half eaten sandwich.  I was so disgusted at the thought of this woman eating that, that I actually stood up and was getting ready to walk over to her and offer to buy her something fresh, but she ran off before I had the chance.  We left the table and I tried looking for her, but she was nowhere to be found.  

There are shelters out there that offer a warm place to sleep and a hot meal, but sadly they're not permanent fixes.  Of course, while these services are available, the person has to want to take advantage of them.  

So, to wrap this rant up here...I really didn't need a long file to tell me how to act or what to do if I'm approached, because I've already learned that and then some, from my current training.  I don't think that they are all bad people.  Unfortunately, they're people who've run into some very bad luck.  I think that if someone was really bothered by this issue, instead of looking at ways to defend yourself against these supposed 'bad people' time would be better spent finding ways to help them.

Mike


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## Empty Hands (Feb 20, 2008)

Edmund BlackAdder said:


> Wibble.



*wipes a tear* Very nice sir, very nice.  I wonder if the point will be lost on our dear Martialist?


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## MA-Caver (Feb 20, 2008)

We have met the enemy and they are the homeless... and they are ... US


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 20, 2008)

Why is it I am now thinking about the Winston Churchill Speech the one with "We shall fight them on the beaches"


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 20, 2008)

Oh.



My.



God.


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## Archangel M (Feb 20, 2008)

Edmund BlackAdder said:


> You all make the same sad fluffy mistake. You want to look at these pathetic creatures as human beings. You seek to put a name, and a face to these pitiful wretches, and that is your failing. Putting a name, a face, the spark of dignity to them means you can't pull the trigger and send them to bum hell like they deserve. No, by looking upon them with pity and that greatest of failings, compassion, you risk allowing them to get into your heart. Once there, it's hard to fight back against the writhing bum mobs that will come up from the sewers, and out of dark allies, and down rusting and crumbling fire escapes to beat you and rob you and rape you and kill you, unless you fight back by beating them to the punch. The only way you can do that is to be a Martialist and cut them down at 50 paces. Show these scum no mercy. Shoot them like the dogs they are, cut off their begging cups and chop off their blocks! Phil details in his articles how to do it, why you should fear them, and which colour trench coat goes best with a short sword optimised for inner city bum twackery. I for one am greatly appreciative of his wit, his insight, and his ideas so that I can wino proof my vino once and for all. I even wear my AOL survival tin between my bum cheeks to ward off the possibility of an attack from the rear.
> 
> Remember, the homeless are the enemy! Wade into them. Spill their blood. Shoot them in the belly. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do.
> 
> ...


 
Nomination for post of the year. Thats ****ing great!


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 20, 2008)

Yargh! Even Adolf Hitler is blushing after reading this dreck. So, BlackAdder, if you lose your job and happen to end up out on the street, does that mean that we should not show you any compassion whatsoever and shoot you like the dog that you are? How about your homeless wife and kids, too? Should we cut off their begging cups and chop off their blocks, too? Maybe you would want me to cut down your homeless wife or daughter at 50 paces? The funny thing about such diatribes as yours is that such people often end up among the very people that they despise so dearly. It's fate's/god's little way of teaching us that we are all equal irregardless of race, class, or any other social division that man has created for himself. Wibble...I've got to remember that one :lol:! (This post was tongue n' cheek, of course)


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 20, 2008)

.....Ok, I so spoiled Blackadder's joke :lol:. I wasn't being serious with that post people :asian:!


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 20, 2008)

BlackAdder, please do not become one of those oh-so-dangerous homeless people that the OP was talking about and attack me while I walk down the street :jaws:. Joking aside, I don't think that the homeless are any more dangerous than any other segment of society. Some people get desperate and act on that desperation, but the same can be said for any segment of society. I don't think that they should be singled out on the basis of a few "statisitics" and what seems like someone's own personal vendetta against them.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Feb 20, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why is it I am now thinking about the Winston Churchill Speech the one with "We shall fight them on the beaches"


 
4 June 1940
"I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.
At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty's Government-every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation.
The American Empire and the Bananna Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.
Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Wino and all the odious apparatus of Leftist rule, we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in the pubs,
we shall fight on the streets and avenues,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the pool hall, we shall defend our cities, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the porches,
we shall fight on the lawn,
we shall fight in the back allies and in the streets,
we shall fight in the food kitches;
we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this nation or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the Martialist Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."



MA-Caver said:


> We have met the enemy and they are the homeless... and they are ... US


 
It is? Well then put a dress on it and call me Susan.



Empty Hands said:


> *wipes a tear* Very nice sir, very nice. I wonder if the point will be lost on our dear Martialist?


 
Most probably yes. The lack of a reply so far to such wonderful rebuttles is telling. Most likely there is much gnashing of tooth in The Kingdom of Fa where the Fa King (Official King of Fa) is telling his Fa King Subjects (The official subjects of the king of fa) all about our Fa King Comments (The official comments about the king of fa) is quite a state of Fa King Disbelief (The official disbelief of the king of fa).



Andy Moynihan said:


> Oh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Why yes, I suppose I am.



Archangel M said:


> Nomination for post of the year. Thats ****ing great!


 
Why Thank you.  Wibble.



SageGhost83 said:


> Yargh! Even Adolf Hitler is blushing after reading this dreck. So, BlackAdder, if you lose your job and happen to end up out on the street, does that mean that we should not show you any compassion whatsoever and shoot you like the dog that you are? How about your homeless wife and kids, too? Should we cut off their begging cups and chop off their blocks, too? Maybe you would want me to cut down your homeless wife or daughter at 50 paces? The funny thing about such diatribes as yours is that such people often end up among the very people that they despise so dearly. It's fate's/god's little way of teaching us that we are all equal irregardless of race, class, or any other social division that man has created for himself. Wibble...I've got to remember that one :lol:! (This post was tongue n' cheek, of course)


 
My wife is not only homeless, she is topless sir, and for $20 you can see her bottomless, though at the legally required 50 pace limit. How you knew this escapes me for the moment, but I have to repel a flash mob of winos who are after my port attacking from my starboard side. They aren't here yet, but I can smell them coming. It's either bums or these underpants I have on my head to hide the tinfoil.  Baaaaah.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 20, 2008)

:lfao:

yup that's the speech


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 20, 2008)

Edmund BlackAdder said:


> My wife is not only homeless, she is topless sir, and for $20 you can see her bottomless, though at the legally required 50 pace limit. How you knew this escapes me for the moment, but I have to repel a flash mob of winos who are after my port attacking from my starboard side. They aren't here yet, but I can smell them coming. It's either bums or these underpants I have on my head to hide the tinfoil. Baaaaah.


 
:lol::lol::lol:


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm going to pull a quote out of the piece.



> So why did I get so upset? Why am I on this soapbox now?
> It&#8217;s simple. I&#8217;ve lived with the homeless problem for over
> thirteen years. For as long as I&#8217;ve lived in Syracuse, New
> York &#8212; *a relatively small city in Central New York that is
> ...



Interesting, considering that local TV station WTVH had this to say on Jan 30 2008:


> Last year, they counted about 700 homeless people with a decline of 37% of "chronically homeless people." They hope this trend continues with this years census.


http://www.wtvh.com/news/local/14895481.html


According to the 2000 census, the city population was 147,306, and its metropolitan area had a population of 732,117. So, 700 doesn't seem like a large amount but a .001% crime rate's small too, unless you're one of the victims.

So, can anyone point me at some reliable numbers for crimes committed by the homeless? There are a number of LEO on here. How many of the calls you go on involve homeless? What were they for? Were they in your experience  like Mr Elmore has described many of them as?


In nearly 40 years, living in or near decent sized cities, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've seen an obvious street person, and my "worst" interactions were in Toronto dealing with a window washer who required 2 "no thanks" before moving along. I have had no problems, nor seen many if any homeless in Syracuse (The OP's home), Rochester, Albany, Buffalo (all NY), Erie PA, Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinati (all Ohio), and the Atlanta GA area. Now, other people will have had different experiences. It's totally possible that I may have just been lucky so far. It's also possible that I as a rule avoid frequenting those areas that one is most likely to encounter large groups of homeless. I can say that those I did encounter were not the "freshest" in scent, but neither was the old woman I served when working in the supermarket deli who left the floor wet, or the heavy smoker who reaked of smoke.

To be honest, and fair, I have to say I'm in disagreement with Phil here on the risk presented, based on my own experiences. His own experiences however have been different and we simply have different data. It doesn't make one right the other wrong. We've just come to different conclusions based on different experiences.

So, as I said earlier, I'd love to see some information from first-hand reports or possibly more statistics from various agencies that can be brought to the table for a broader, more indepth look.

In the end, the only way to end the "threat" of the homeless, both real and imagined, is to deal with the issue of homelessness, it's causes, it's legacies, etc.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 20, 2008)

Sidebar. I'm slowly working through this (on pg 44 atm), and while I don't agree with some of the characterizations, some of the advice on minimizing risk seems spot on to me. For the folks who are hammering Phil I might suggest a different tactic. Read it, take what works for you, flush the rest. It's a long read and worth a little thought.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> In nearly 40 years, living in or near decent sized cities, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've seen an obvious street person, and my "worst" interactions were in Toronto dealing with a window washer who required 2 "no thanks" before moving along.



They are fairly obvious in Chicago... quite all over the place... but more often than not, they are trying to sell you a copy of "Streetwise" than hassling you for money.  I have NO problem with that, and often buy a copy.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 21, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Nomination for post of the year. Thats ****ing great!



Second.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 21, 2008)

The Martialist said:


> Mister Homeless, you better get away from me before I pull this sword out from under my trench coat and paint your cardboard box condo an interesting new color called "Hint of Brain"!!!




- ^_^


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## Drac (Feb 21, 2008)

The homeless have become such a big problem here that Cleveland passed a law preventing " Agressive Panhandling" ...Too many office type and tourists have been harrassed by those seeking funds, they had gotten so bold as to approach groups of people going to or returning from lunch *DEMANDING* money, oh yeah that will make people want to work in downtown Cleveland... The city just started posting signs *AGAINST* giving these people money..It is a major problem....


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## jks9199 (Feb 21, 2008)

I have to agree with Bob; there is some good, basic self defense information in the pamphlet.  I didn't take issue with that.  I do take issue with Elmore's characterization of "the homeless" as a major security threat.  It's not born out through crime reports or similar information; the homeless are, from my understanding, more often the victims than the victimizer.

I also felt his response style was so aggressive as to become a problem; minor changes move aggressive defiance to confident refusal, which is much less likely to be a problem.  Maybe it was just his presentation for his pamphlet; maybe it was a "gravitationally challenged" individual (as I myself am) trying to look tough for the photos.  I felt his points regarding looking at your watch were excellent.  

But the good gets lost in the hyperbole...  Something that seems to happen to Elmore a lot.

Oh... as an aside... I do actually agree that the homeless population does pose a very specific security threat.  They're an "invisible population" in many ways; they're actions are often unnoticed, and they have frightening latitude of movement.  That's a great potential means for any sort of terrorist organization to move people into downtown areas where they'd ordinarily not enjoy that level of free movement.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 21, 2008)

Whatever you do, don't punch a homeless guy in the mouth. A friend of mine got in a scuffle with an overly aggressive pan-handler, punched the guy in the mouth, knocked him right out, and then looked down to see one of the guy's teeth in his knuckle! He almost lost his hand from the subsequent infection. 

One more reason for open-hand strikes. They work on anyone from the homeless to big sumo fellas (ala Keith Hackney).


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## Carol (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm going to go against the grain here 

I downloaded the book and read it from beginning to end.  Overall, I liked it....although I admit that I did not like the way he made many of his points.

There is a good bit of hyperbole in the book that is over the top.  I'm not a homeless-basher.  Not everyone that is down on their luck chooses to be in your face.  The homeless folks that are at local shelters trying hard to get their life together weren't/aren't a threat to me or anyone else.  

But having lived in a densely populated part of Boston for as long as I did...I think he gave a more thorough, and more accurate description of what my neighbors and I faced on Massachusetts Avenue better than anyone else.  Overall, I've faced the most personal danger from the aggressive street bums and drunks (that most people called "homeless" whether they actually were or not) than I did from the non-homeless criminals that were out and about...and that's coming from someone whose nextdoor neighbor was a correctional halfway house.

I do wish the book was written in a different fashion.  Part of me wishes that I had seen something like this 20 years ago.....on the other hand, had I done so...and had the mindset that I had when I was 19, the hyperbole in the book would likely have offended me...meaning, I would have likely tossed it instead of reading it.  His defensive suggestions and use of force are conservative and practical.  which, to me, was a bit refreshing compared t the "I'd rather by tried by 12 than carried by 6" mindset.  Some of these points seem to be lost in the tone.

Regardless, props to Phil for making the book available at no charge.  Its a book I might not have read otherwise and, despite my personal disagreements, I'm glad I read it.


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## Empty Hands (Feb 21, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> That's a great potential means for any sort of terrorist organization to move people into downtown areas where they'd ordinarily not enjoy that level of free movement.



What does this mean?  Doesn't everyone have the right to go pretty much wherever they want, whenever they want once they are inside the country?  Aside from the obvious like military bases or private property.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 21, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> What does this mean?  Doesn't everyone have the right to go pretty much wherever they want, whenever they want once they are inside the country?  Aside from the obvious like military bases or private property.


Actually, no you don't. The average person won't notice the restrictions much, but your travels and activities are actually quite restricted.  Try boarding a plane without a drivers licence, or taking a photo of the White House while on vacation in DC with certain types o cameras, for example. Those are however broader topics for discussion elsewhere.

The average person, when confronted with a couple of dirty, smelly people, is to look away and walk away. They don't look too closely at the contents of Mr. Stinky's push cart of swag. A coordinated attack, disguised as homeless bums could do some serious damage to person and property. Maybe the enemy isn't the drugged out wino, but the terrorist masqurading as him?


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## Empty Hands (Feb 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The average person won't notice the restrictions much, but your travels and activities are actually quite restricted.  Try boarding a plane without a drivers licence, or taking a photo of the White House while on vacation in DC with certain types o cameras, for example.



Well sure, but that doesn't really seem to apply to the apparently "terrifying" latitude of movement that homeless people have.  Since they mostly walk, I was considering it from that standpoint.  What downtown core (to take from jks' post) can't I enter that a homeless person can?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 21, 2008)

Apparently, Airports.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23256026/

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...0A35751C0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
(I liked this one. I feel very safe in NYC now, not)


> bout a dozen people now live permanently at Kennedy, settling down at night in the cavernous international terminals that never close, sacking out like weary travelers in modular chairs or on the floor.
> 
> They are different from the homeless people who sleep on the streets or in the subways. They are, in effect, invisible, working to blend in with the human traffic. They do not seem dirty or aggressive, and they rarely panhandle. Most are mentally ill, but not a threat to themselves or others. Some are well educated. They prefer the heated, air-conditioned, relatively crime-free airport to conditions in the street.



http://www.journeyplanner.co.uk/results.php?q=Gatwick+Airport


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## SageGhost83 (Feb 21, 2008)

I would like to think that people have enough common sense to keep their guard up and be mindful of their environment and those around them regardless of whether they are dealing with the homeless or not. I looked past the hyperbole in the document and what I found was nothing more than common sense precautions that should and usually are taken by ordinary defense-minded individuals. I don't agree with him singling out the homeless - I think that you must be aware of everybody in your environment and take precautions whether they are homeless or not. I do agree with Bob Hubbard, though. I believe I saw something like that in a Haha Lung book at the local Borders Books and Music store. A seemingly homeless person was hiding myriad weapons under his rags and in his push cart and nobody suspected a thing. We are a very open society and I don't think that it would take much imagination for someone to hit us real good if they really wanted to, but that is indeed another thread. I think the article took what is basically common practice for many of us while out in public, and slanted it to target the homeless. Nice, street-wise advice, but it could apply to society in general, not just the homeless.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> (I liked this one. I feel very safe in NYC now, not)


 
You mean you did before


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## Drac (Feb 21, 2008)

> bout a dozen people now live permanently at Kennedy, settling down at night in the cavernous international terminals that never close, sacking out like weary travelers in modular chairs or on the floor.
> 
> They are different from the homeless people who sleep on the streets or in the subways. They are, in effect, invisible, working to blend in with the human traffic. They do not seem dirty or aggressive, and they rarely panhandle. Most are mentally ill, but not a threat to themselves or others. Some are well educated. They prefer the heated, air-conditioned, relatively crime-free airport to conditions in the street.


 
They did that at Cleveland Hopkins for years until they stepped up security first with the baggage screeners and now TSA..You cannot get past the ticket lobby and once in the baggage claim area you cannot enter again...Recently the Cleveland Police have been putting them out, meaning they are escorted to the RTA trains platform where they will spend the night until the trains start running again at 4AM..Then they will board the trains and attempt to ride until the Transit Police are called to remove them..
Oh the joy for the early morning commuters to have to sit in proximity of someone that has not bathed in about a month..


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## MA-Caver (Mar 16, 2008)

Drac said:


> Oh the joy for the early morning commuters to have to sit in proximity of someone that has not bathed in about a month..


Been there done that. How about sleeping next to them all night (and their shoes are off!!) with a dirty pillow and blanket on the dirty floor of a shelter because it's too damned cold outside?


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 17, 2008)

Phil, Thanks for the post. There is a lot of political correctness on this forum, and as soon as i started reading the file you attached i knew what kind of effect it would have on the frequent posters here, I think it's great! Your stat's are accurate and this is really good info.
Years ago a lot of these people ( oh isn't that offensive "These People")
were institutionalized so they could get the attention they need. And somewhere along the line some group of Liberals decided to just let them all out to run the streets.


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## Drac (Mar 17, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Been there done that. How about sleeping next to them all night (and their shoes are off!!) with a dirty pillow and blanket on the dirty floor of a shelter because it's too damned cold outside?


 

During the real bad Winters we have had shelters provided us with a list of places that had space...Many REFUSED to go there because the rules of no drugs or alcohol allowed...Better the possibility of frostbite than give up that 40 and a "shorty"...


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## MJS (Mar 17, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> Phil, Thanks for the post. There is a lot of political correctness on this forum, and as soon as i started reading the file you attached i knew what kind of effect it would have on the frequent posters here,


 
Actaully, what there is here, is a wide variety of opinions.  Everyone is entitled to his/her own.  While we all may not agree, we still like to debate in a friendly fashion.  If you havent already, perhaps you should take some time to read thru the rules of the study, as they differ slightly from the rest of the forum.  




> I think it's great! Your stat's are accurate and this is really good info.


 
Accurate according to who?  Phil?  If they are his personal stats, then they're simply his opinion and nothing more.  If they're a compilation of stats from various states, cities, PDs, etc., then I'd say they'd hold more weight.




> Years ago a lot of these people ( oh isn't that offensive "These People")
> were institutionalized so they could get the attention they need. And somewhere along the line some group of Liberals decided to just let them all out to run the streets.


 
And part of treatment...well, its a 2-way street.  There are many sources for it, but, and thats the key word here, they have to want it.


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## shesulsa (Mar 17, 2008)

While it's true that people have to be willing to be helped in order to receive it (for the most part), there is a general underlying misconception about all people in need.

For example: battered women.  It's *SO* very easy to say, "why don't you just leave?"  Ever hear the comparison to the frog in hot water?  If a frog is placed into a pot of cool water and then warmed _very slowly_ to the point of boiling, the frog will adapt to the temperature of the water as it warms and may not jump out but would never jump into or would immediately attempt to jump out of boiling hot water.  I believe this axiom was disproven, however - you just cannot know everyone's story and it isn't always just as simple as it seems to be for those of us who are not in that position.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> Years ago a lot of these people ( oh isn't that offensive "These People")
> were institutionalized so they could get the attention they need. And somewhere along the line some group of Liberals decided to just let them all out to run the streets.


 

Here in California, that was done by Governor Ronald Reagan.


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## Bodhisattva (Mar 17, 2008)

The Martialist said:


> It is not an "I hate certain people document," no.  It examines the statistical support for the assertion that street people, as a demographic, form an increased threat to personal security and thus should be "profiled" as such by the individual.  It then explains the common ploys used by street people to con you out of your money and/or set you up for crime (in other words, precursors to assault).
> 
> The PDF file is a 72-page booklet that is just under 600Kb, not a large document by any standard.



If the homeless are such a security a risk, then its just one more reason we should solve our homeless problem - NOT profile them.

This is ridiculous.  Profile the homeless.

You know very little about the homeless, sir. The issue is much bigger than this.


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## shesulsa (Mar 17, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> Here in California, that was done by Governor Ronald Reagan.


Part of the Reaganomics plan, was it not?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Part of the Reaganomics plan, was it not?


 
the Gift that keeps on giving, decades later.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 17, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> Years ago a lot of these people ( oh isn't that offensive "These People")
> were institutionalized so they could get the attention they need. And somewhere along the line some group of Liberals decided to just let them all out to run the streets.





shesulsa said:


> Part of the Reaganomics plan, was it not?


 
Actually at the federal level I believe it was ole Teddy Kennedy and his pals that did this. But Regan may have been president at the time.


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## shesulsa (Mar 17, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> the Gift that keeps on giving, decades later.


The amazing thing about us brain-dead, mentally ill liberals is we remember that when the Republicans point out that the last surplus California had was while Reagan was Governor that the reason it was there in the first place was because of his predecessor - and that it took very little time for Mr. Reagan to exhaust that pool.


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## Kreth (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm feeling inspired to write a 100-page article on "The Deadly St. Patrick's Day Mobs of Oneonta, NY and How To Show Them Who's Boss." RAWR!


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## navyvetcv60 (Mar 17, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> Here in California, that was done by Governor Ronald Reagan.


 
I'm no fan of the spineless republicans, but i BELIEVE it was the California State House that passed that with more votes then Reagan could over ride with a veto, IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME RIGHT?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2008)

navyvetcv60 said:


> I'm no fan of the spineless republicans, but i BELIEVE it was the California State House that passed that with more votes then Reagan could over ride with a veto, IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME RIGHT?


 
Honestly, I don't know the details of how it was done, it was before my time, at least before my time in California.  But Reagan is reviled here by many, as the person responsible for this.  Not as the person who attempted to prevent it from happening thru veto.


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