# Karate vs TKD



## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

Okay so as far as I know neither of these guys are grand masters. I don't know how much they train but I have no reason to suspect that they are anything other than average examples of their arts.

My question is what do you think about their sparring?

How do you rate their tactics and techniques?

What do you think either should have done differently?


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## JR 137 (Sep 4, 2018)

The gentleman in black is MT forum member Azulx.  I think he posted this video previously.


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## kravmaga1 (Sep 4, 2018)

*Karate* is a Japanese martial art form, while *Taekwondo* originated in Korea. In Karate Strong punches, kicks, takedowns, and blocks are done. The main feature of Taekwondo is effective kicking. it is one of the faster martial arts.


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## Hanzou (Sep 4, 2018)

Their techniques lack power, their hands aren't protecting their upper body, they're over-dependent on kicking, and their foundation is laughable. The way they're fighting is going to lead to a fist in the face or an easy takedown by a grappler. Sparring like that can lead to serious problems when they really need to use their techniques. I understand when you're sparring for fun or practice, but sparring in that fashion simply leads to very bad habits.


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## pdg (Sep 4, 2018)

kravmaga1 said:


> *Karate* is a Japanese martial art form, while *Taekwondo* originated in Korea. In Karate Strong punches, kicks, takedowns, and blocks are done. The main feature of Taekwondo is effective kicking. it is one of the faster martial arts.



If your only exposure to taekwon-do is seeing something called taekwondo on telly during the Olympics (and reading a few blog snippets) then I can see why you think that...

If you really want to tell people what something is and what it focuses on, I would suggest finding out yourself first.


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## Martial D (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Okay so as far as I know neither of these guys are grand masters. I don't know how much they train but I have no reason to suspect that they are anything other than average examples of their arts.
> 
> My question is what do you think about their sparring?
> 
> ...


White is more rooted and powerful, black is quicker. If it were a point fight black wins.

Knockdown fight, white wins.

Ring/cage fight, it goes the distance.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Okay so as far as I know neither of these guys are grand masters. I don't know how much they train but I have no reason to suspect that they are anything other than average examples of their arts.
> 
> My question is what do you think about their sparring?
> 
> ...


I saw so little use of the hands that it was difficult to tell who was the Shotokan person. It was a little sloppy on both sides. The first video with the gentleman in black, he has good, fast kicks and his defensive posture is very good. I assume sparring without gear was part of the reason for the lack of contact.


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## skribs (Sep 4, 2018)

I think whenever you're sparring, you're playing a game, and it's hard to judge the tactics of the game without knowing what game they're playing, what the rules are, and what their goal is.


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## Headhunter (Sep 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Their techniques lack power, their hands aren't protecting their upper body, they're over-dependent on kicking, and their foundation is laughable. The way they're fighting is going to lead to a fist in the face or an easy takedown by a grappler. Sparring like that can lead to serious problems when they really need to use their techniques. I understand when you're sparring for fun or practice, but sparring in that fashion simply leads to very bad habits.


Easy to judge sitting on a computer,.,how about you upload a few videos of yourself before critisising other people


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Easy to judge sitting on a computer,.,how about you upload a few videos of yourself before critisising other people


He only answered the question asked, no need to throw down any gauntlets.

The question is as much about the perspective of the person answering as the subjects in the video.


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Their techniques lack power, their hands aren't protecting their upper body, they're over-dependent on kicking, and their foundation is laughable. The way they're fighting is going to lead to a fist in the face or an easy takedown by a grappler. Sparring like that can lead to serious problems when they really need to use their techniques. I understand when you're sparring for fun or practice, but sparring in that fashion simply leads to very bad habits.



I don't think they are supposed to be putting in power as it's clearly a friendly glove free sparring session.


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## FriedRice (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Okay so as far as I know neither of these guys are grand masters. I don't know how much they train but I have no reason to suspect that they are anything other than average examples of their arts.
> 
> My question is what do you think about their sparring?
> 
> ...




Well, they're both Black Belts.  Black gi is TKD and White gi is Shotokan.  White gi is kicking TKD's butt with counters. Light sparring. Their hands don't look very good, but it's only a short video, so inconclusive. White gi is more experienced, and you can tell before the fighting starts (almost anyway) by how many wash cycles his black belt has been through compared to blue gi's black belt, looking brand new.


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## Mitlov (Sep 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> White gi is more experienced, and you can tell before the fighting starts (almost anyway) by how many wash cycles his black belt has been through compared to blue gi's black belt, looking brand new.



Tangent warning: how tattered your belt is really should never be used to judge experience or skill.  How well a belt ages is extremely variable depending on materials and construction.  Also, if your style provides a new belt at each dan rank, your belt is going to look nice and clean the day after your second degree black belt test. 

And that's before you get into the issue of some Shotokan folks deliberately fraying their belts (I don't think this guy is one of them, but they do exist).


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## jobo (Sep 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Their techniques lack power, their hands aren't protecting their upper body, they're over-dependent on kicking, and their foundation is laughable. The way they're fighting is going to lead to a fist in the face or an easy takedown by a grappler. Sparring like that can lead to serious problems when they really need to use their techniques. I understand when you're sparring for fun or practice, but spa in that fashion simply leads to very bad habits.


translation,,,, its not mma, so everything they do is therefore rubbish


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## CB Jones (Sep 4, 2018)

Wait.....y’all wash belts???  Lol


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> translation,,,, its not mma, so everything they do is therefore rubbish



Well there's always one isn't there ;p

Mma has changed over time and it will continue to do so.

Eventually the dogmatic rules that boxing brought with it on its way in to mma will be gotten over as people realise that there is more than one way to fight.


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## Mitlov (Sep 4, 2018)

Getting back to the original post, I thought they both looked just fine.  Obviously this is friendly technical sparring, not full contact competition.  The TKD guy was a bit too predictable and needs to mix it up more.  Also, you can tell his guard is from a style that doesn't include head punches.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 4, 2018)

kravmaga1 said:


> *Karate* is a Japanese martial art form, while *Taekwondo* originated in Korea. In Karate Strong punches, kicks, takedowns, and blocks are done. The main feature of Taekwondo is effective kicking. it is one of the faster martial arts.



Correction, Karate is an Okinawan Martial Art Form that originated in Okinawa, and was simplified and dumbed down (in many but not every karate ryu-ha) style that was exported to the Japanese mainland and in the time after that export, has remained dumbed down.

However, the world's most widely adopted variety of karate would be Shotokan... which after Gichin Funakoshi passed away... became the most prevalent. Shotokan Karate is Japanese karate.
This helps lend to the misunderstanding that Karate is Japanese.

When karate was being developed, way back... Okinawa still had a king, and was treated as a vassal state by both China... and Japan.


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## Martial D (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Eventually the dogmatic rules that boxing brought with it on its way in to mma will be gotten over as people realise that there is more than one way to fight.



I think we are there already. Within competitive MMA, there are vastly different successful styles of fighting already happening.

What ways to fight are not already there that would be attained by shucking said 'dogmatic rules'?


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## FriedRice (Sep 4, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Tangent warning: how tattered your belt is really should never be used to judge experience or skill.  How well a belt ages is extremely variable depending on materials and construction.  Also, if your style provides a new belt at each dan rank, your belt is going to look nice and clean the day after your second degree black belt test.
> 
> And that's before you get into the issue of some Shotokan folks deliberately fraying their belts (I don't think this guy is one of them, but they do exist).



Well yeah, it's an indicator....so I never said it was conclusive science by itself or something? We have plenty of passed down belts in BJJ, but usually browns. What are we, in court/under oath or sparring to the death or something? Pick the wrong guy and you die?  Like in Indiana Jones 3 where the dude chose the wrong goblet and zaaaaaaaaap!

And in this case, I was right....the tattered belt guy was kicking ***.


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## CB Jones (Sep 4, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Also, you can tell his guard is from a style that doesn't include head punches.



I’m pretty sure that is incorrect.  I believe the style he comes from allows head punches.

 Just because someone has their hands down in sparring matches doesn’t mean their style doesn’t allow head contact.


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## FriedRice (Sep 4, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Wait.....y’all wash belts???  Lol



This comment just tells me that you don't train as hard as we do and/or you're that guy who I need to sneak in a hand sanitizer shot after shaking hands with.     I kid, I kid...


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## FriedRice (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Eventually the dogmatic rules that boxing brought with it on its way in to mma will be gotten over as people realise that there is more than one way to fight.



MMA started out as a free for all and got destroyed by BJJ. Then Muay Thai was brought into the mix + BJJ to dominate year 5-15 (approx).  And for the past 10+ years, it's been dominantly Boxing + Wrestling with BJJ & MT dropping down to secondary arts.

These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5 (esp. year 1) when it was potluck, bullshido, anything goes almost; where you can write down as many Black Belt degrees and fake & real fight experience as you wanted on the registration and Bruce Buffer woulda announced it. 

So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory  to their style?


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## skribs (Sep 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I saw so little use of the hands that it was difficult to tell who was the Shotokan person. It was a little sloppy on both sides. The first video with the gentleman in black, he has good, fast kicks and his defensive posture is very good. I assume sparring without gear was part of the reason for the lack of contact.



I see that when they're further away their hands are down, but their hands come up as they go closer.  The competition seems to focus on kicks, so they're using range more than their guard to defend the attacks.  It's better to not get hit than it is to get your arm broken by a kick.  While their level of contact doesn't break bones, I've blocked one or two kicks that I regret.  

In the Hapkido I train (entirely different style) we are told to keep our hands lower than a normal fighting stance.  It looks kind of like the Wing Chun guard.  The lead hand is somewhere between the solarplexus and shoulder, the rear hand betwen solarplexus and belly button.  But that's because in a real fight, people won't just go for your head.  They'll go for your groin, too.


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## skribs (Sep 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> MMA started out as a free for all and got destroyed by BJJ. Then Muay Thai was brought into the mix + BJJ to dominate year 5-15 (approx).  And for the past 10+ years, it's been dominantly Boxing + Wrestling with BJJ & MT dropping down to secondary arts.
> 
> These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5 (esp. year 1) when it was potluck, bullshido, anything goes almost; where you can write down as many Black Belt degrees and fake & real fight experience as you wanted on the registration and Bruce Buffer woulda announced it.
> 
> So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory  to their style?



How is it that boxing and wrestling have taken over?  It seems to me that MT + BJJ is more suited for those competitions.


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## FriedRice (Sep 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> How is it that boxing and wrestling have taken over?  It seems to me that MT + BJJ is more suited for those competitions.



It sounds good on paper, but throwing hands is just dominant right now. And nothing beats Boxing for that. Lots of boxing and simple kicks. Even in Thailand, the Thais are bringing in Western Boxing because the Euros are kicking some *** with their hands in MT, even in Thailand....and esp. in K-1.

The BJJ is still there, but it's a lot more Wrestling training to get it to the ground and/or preventing to go to the round.


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## CB Jones (Sep 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> In the Hapkido I train (entirely different style) we are told to keep our hands lower than a normal fighting stance.



My son keeps his hands kinda in this position when fighting


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 4, 2018)

It's point sparring.  So I will comment on it as such.
White appears to be the shotokan guy.  His movements are not crisp and lack focus.  When he punches it should be a full extention and a full retraction like a piston, nice and straight. He's also not grounded well when striking. His kicks are sloppy as well, again no retraction.
Black seems to be something like TKD.  Sorry Azlux but your kicks are very slappy, patty cake without power or focus.
I am also not a big fan of the whole bunny rabbit bouncing thing, but I know it's very common.
EDIT:  watching it again, using Okinawan competitive standards neither side scored any points.  Maybe white might have squeaked a left hand in when he switched stances.


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## Buka (Sep 4, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> My son keeps his hands kinda in this position when fighting
> View attachment 21745



That's exactly how I held my hands in karate tournament competition. It works really well, as I'm sure he agrees. 

In the ring I help my hands in various boxing stances. Depending on the opponent. I think everyone should have various go to stances for competition, as well as in life situations in general.


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## CB Jones (Sep 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> That's exactly how I held my hands in karate tournament competition. It works really well, as I'm sure he agrees.
> .



Buka tested, Buka approved.


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## Mitlov (Sep 4, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I’m pretty sure that is incorrect.  I believe the style he comes from allows head punches.
> 
> Just because someone has their hands down in sparring matches doesn’t mean their style doesn’t allow head contact.



Fair enough.  The style of TKD I did in college used a similar low guard to what he's doing and we used Olympic sparring rules, so I had just connected those dots.  Definitely wasn't meant as style bashing or anything.


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I think we are there already. Within competitive MMA, there are vastly different successful styles of fighting already happening.
> 
> What ways to fight are not already there that would be attained by shucking said 'dogmatic rules'?



It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.

Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism. 

As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.


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## Mitlov (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.
> 
> Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism.
> 
> As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.



Also the classic boxing guard works best when both parties have bulky boxing gloves.  With smaller MMA gloves, low guards (like the Shotokan guy in this video, not so much the TKD guy) have been used even in full contact MMA, by folks like Chuck Liddell and Lyoto Machida.


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## Martial D (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.
> 
> Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism.
> 
> As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.


There are some fighters that successfully utilize mostly kicks and keep their hands low and barely punch.

Elias Theodorou is one example off the top of my head.


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## Hanzou (Sep 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> It sounds good on paper, but throwing hands is just dominant right now. And nothing beats Boxing for that. Lots of boxing and simple kicks. Even in Thailand, the Thais are bringing in Western Boxing because the Euros are kicking some *** with their hands in MT, even in Thailand....and esp. in K-1.
> 
> The BJJ is still there, but it's a lot more Wrestling training to get it to the ground and/or preventing to go to the round.



Actually what happened is that a lot of Bjj schools have incorporated wrestling and sombo into their curriculums to remain competitive and then transplanted that to MMA gyms. The stuff they're doing now is pretty far beyond the original Gracie stuff from the original UFC.


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## Hanzou (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I don't think they are supposed to be putting in power as it's clearly a friendly glove free sparring session.



Meh. Nothing wrong with a little power when sparring friendly.

Anyway, I didn't mean to come off so harsh. I've simply never been a fan of tippity-tappity rabbit fighting.


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## Hanzou (Sep 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> translation,,,, its not mma, so everything they do is therefore rubbish



I find that comment amusing considering that I don't practice MMA.


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## jobo (Sep 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I find that comment amusing considering that I don't practice MMA.


I find it amusing that your such a cheer leader for mma, but dont even do it


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## CB Jones (Sep 4, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Fair enough.  The style of TKD I did in college used a similar low guard to what he's doing and we used Olympic sparring rules, so I had just connected those dots.  Definitely wasn't meant as style bashing or anything.



Didn't take it as style bashing.  Was just clarifying a couple points.


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## drop bear (Sep 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> How is it that boxing and wrestling have taken over?  It seems to me that MT + BJJ is more suited for those competitions.



In a simple way.
Boxing has better takedown defence and wrestling has better striking defence.


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> In a simple way.
> Boxing has better takedown defence and wrestling has better striking defence.


How does boxing have takedown defence?


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## drop bear (Sep 4, 2018)

Low hands vs high hands is a complicated argument. If you defend with good footwork angles and timing you can be casual with your guard. And that let's you strike from trickier angles.

If you are **** keep your guard tight.

I keep a tight guard by the way.

So the progression is you keep a tight guard until you can bash the guys who are telling you to do that. Then you can do what you want.


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## drop bear (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> How does boxing have takedown defence?



The footwork that allows easy kicking and elbows also allows the other guy to grab your legs and hips.


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> MMA started out as a free for all and got destroyed by BJJ. Then Muay Thai was brought into the mix + BJJ to dominate year 5-15 (approx).  And for the past 10+ years, it's been dominantly Boxing + Wrestling with BJJ & MT dropping down to secondary arts.
> 
> These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5 (esp. year 1) when it was potluck, bullshido, anything goes almost; where you can write down as many Black Belt degrees and fake & real fight experience as you wanted on the registration and Bruce Buffer woulda announced it.
> 
> So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory  to their style?



I don't know if it's a stylistic thing,  but when you write things like the above it feels like you have such a skewed view of the things you're discussing that the work it would take to discuss them is just too much.


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The footwork that allows easy kicking and elbows also allows the other guy to grab your legs and hips.


Ah so it's less vulnerable as opposed to having better defence.


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## Martial D (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Ah so it's less vulnerable as opposed to having better defence.


Same thing


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## Martial D (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I don't know if it's a stylistic thing,  but when you write things like the above it feels like you have such a skewed view of the things you're discussing that the work it would take to discuss them is just too much.


I don't see anything false or unsound about his argument here. Where do you see a disconnect?


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## drop bear (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I don't know if it's a stylistic thing,  but when you write things like the above it feels like you have such a skewed view of the things you're discussing that the work it would take to discuss them is just too much.



It is a prototype view of how martial arts works. Where you can see the problem but not completely identify it or the causes.

Or just time and time again seeing sports fighters decimate non sports fighters.

And seeing the inconsistency with training.

I don't think it is as cut and dried as he does. But there is definitely this element of people refusing to do the things that will give them any success in martial arts application.


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The footwork that allows easy kicking and elbows also allows the other guy to grab your legs and hips.



BTW anyone else see the connection between the Muay Thai and Wing Chun stances.

(Also my autocorrect keeps turning Wing Chun into Wing Chunky. It's only a matter of time before I slip so I thought I should get ahead of it).


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Same thing


One is active, one is passive.


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## DaveB (Sep 4, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I think we are there already. Within competitive MMA, there are vastly different successful styles of fighting already happening.
> 
> What ways to fight are not already there that would be attained by shucking said 'dogmatic rules'?





Martial D said:


> There are some fighters that successfully utilize mostly kicks and keep their hands low and barely punch.
> 
> Elias Theodorou is one example off the top of my head.



Your own posts contradict his point.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 4, 2018)

Misread, ignore.


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## drop bear (Sep 4, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Meh. Nothing wrong with a little power when sparring friendly.
> 
> Anyway, I didn't mean to come off so harsh. I've simply never been a fan of tippity-tappity rabbit fighting.



It forces a concept that quick entries and exits are king.

Now the better you are at that the better you fight.


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## drop bear (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> BTW anyone else see the connection between the Muay Thai and Wing Chun stances.
> 
> (Also my autocorrect keeps turning Wing Chun into Wing Chunky. It's only a matter of time before I slip so I thought I should get ahead of it).



Their hands are more ammy boxing though. And again they have optimised their stance to make their system easier.

And we also see wing chun not that great against takedowns. But that is also their staunch and bang methodology.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> I think whenever you're sparring, you're playing a game, and it's hard to judge the tactics of the game without knowing what game they're playing, what the rules are, and what their goal is.


Aren't there usually defined rules for sparring in a given Dojo/Dojang? The goals for sparring are different in regards to SD of course but the application of techniques should be much the same.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Their hands are more ammy boxing though. And again they have optimised their stance to make their system easier.
> 
> And we also see wing chun not that great against takedowns. But that is also their staunch and bang methodology.


The Urban dictionary says ammy means: "A Classy but sexy long haired beauty". I am guessing that is not what you meant.


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## Martial D (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> One is active, one is passive.


What now?

Being less vulnerable means..that you are less vulnerable. This is usually because you have taken measures such as..keeping your hands up, keeping your Ballance..and moving in such a way that you don't get hit.

Aka defense


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## Martial D (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Your own posts contradict his point.


Where? I see nothing contradictory between my words you quoted and his post. Could you point out what you find to be contradictory?


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## Martial D (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> BTW anyone else see the connection between the Muay Thai and Wing Chun stances.
> 
> (Also my autocorrect keeps turning Wing Chun into Wing Chunky. It's only a matter of time before I slip so I thought I should get ahead of it).


I do both, but I don't see too much similarity.  I guess both keep a lot of weight on the back foot.


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## Hanzou (Sep 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> I find it amusing that your such a cheer leader for mma, but dont even do it



I'm a cheerleader for what works whether I do it or not.


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## Mitlov (Sep 4, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Aren't there usually defined rules for sparring in a given Dojo/Dojang? The goals for sparring are different in regards to SD of course but the application of techniques should be much the same.



And these two guys come from styles with different rules for competition.  They're feeling each other out in technical sparring, not trying to win like it was a competition under either person's rule set.


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## FriedRice (Sep 4, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I don't know if it's a stylistic thing,  but when you write things like the above it feels like you have such a skewed view of the things you're discussing that the work it would take to discuss them is just too much.



So basically, your argument is that you disagree but incapable of stating why. Ever heard of the SJW's?

It certainly is a stylistic thing, and Royce Gracie proved it and forced the Martial Arts world to address all of its BS.


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## FriedRice (Sep 5, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> And these two guys come from styles with different rules for competition.  They're feeling each other out in technical sparring, not trying to win like it was a competition under either person's rule set.



It looked very competitive but at an agreed upon power level.

When 2 different styles spar, in what looked like one of the guy's own gym....then that's def. an unwritten competition.

It's going to look real dumb if you get wrecked real bad by another guy of another style, on camera. They were both at Black Belt level, so that made it even more tasty. At least the TKD knew he was outclassed and didn't up the power level...prob. because he knew it wouldn't end well for him.

Sparring should always be a competition and it usually is. Just that you are expected to abide by the agreed upon power levels, rules, etc.


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## drop bear (Sep 5, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The Urban dictionary says ammy means: "A Classy but sexy long haired beauty". I am guessing that is not what you meant.



Exactly what I meant.


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## dowz (Sep 5, 2018)

I agree that the black is the TKD guy. Not sure how it would change the fighting style if it was a real fight. At 14 sec of the video, the tkd guy threw a back thrust onto an onrushing opponent. 

At full power i think it would have cause some damage. 

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Where? I see nothing contradictory between my words you quoted and his post. Could you point out what you find to be contradictory?


I commented that there were other waY's to fight than those dictated by boxing dogma.

FR suggested that such other methods didn't exist in many. "where are these other ways of fighting" "...where have they been the last 25 years" etc.

You said that they do exist in mma already and gave examples.

Pretty straightforward contradiction there.


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## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I do both, but I don't see too much similarity.  I guess both keep a lot of weight on the back foot.


And square shoulders.


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## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> So basically, your argument is that you disagree but incapable of stating why. Ever heard of the SJW's?
> 
> It certainly is a stylistic thing, and Royce Gracie proved it and forced the Martial Arts world to address all of its BS.



No, I can explain why, but the explanation would be very similar to the dissertation I wrote in another thread just a few days ago. Add that to past experience with you and those like you who are convinced that they have the answers and it just feels like a waste of time.

The fact that you are throwing around the term sjw speaks volumes.


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Ever heard of the SJW's?



Not once has a good discussion started with someone using this acronym as a pejorative.


----------



## punisher73 (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.
> 
> Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism.
> 
> As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.



I disagree with your assessment.  A higher guard is important no matter WHAT distance if you can punch to the head.  The range they were at, it would not have been hard to close the gap and punch him in the face.

The ONLY time you will see a guard like that is in sport style sparring that emphasizes kicking and not allowing punching to the head/face.  That is not a distancing issue, but a technique/tactics thing.  If you allow both kicking and punching the guard will change and you reflect the possibility of attacks from any level.


----------



## punisher73 (Sep 5, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Actually what happened is that a lot of Bjj schools have incorporated wrestling and sombo into their curriculums to remain competitive and then transplanted that to MMA gyms. The stuff they're doing now is pretty far beyond the original Gracie stuff from the original UFC.



Don't buy into the Gracie propaganda.  Rolls Gracie trained and incorporated a lot of wrestling and Sambo into his approach but died before really passing it onto the rest.  Also, remember that the Gracie's were not the only fountain from which BJJ came.  The Gracies sucked at leg locks etc. and always talked about them being "dirty" and downplaying their use.  Other BJJ lineages still kept and trained them.

I am not disagreeing that the sport has evolved and that BJJ/GJJ hasn't also evolved some as well, but don't think because the Gracies didn't use it or show it that it wasn't there earlier in other BJJ lineages.


----------



## FriedRice (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> No, I can explain why, but the explanation would be very similar to the dissertation I wrote in another thread just a few days ago. Add that to past experience with you and those like you who are convinced that they have the answers and it just feels like a waste of time.
> 
> The fact that you are throwing around the term sjw speaks volumes.



Once again, your argument is that you disagree but have nothing to back it up with.


----------



## FriedRice (Sep 5, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Not once has a good discussion started with someone using this acronym as a pejorative.



Oh but what @DaveB said wasn't the same as what you're complaining about?  What a hypocrite you are?


----------



## CB Jones (Sep 5, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> I disagree with your assessment.  A higher guard is important no matter WHAT distance if you can punch to the head.  The range they were at, it would not have been hard to close the gap and punch him in the face.
> 
> The ONLY time you will see a guard like that is in sport style sparring that emphasizes kicking and not allowing punching to the head/face.  That is not a distancing issue, but a technique/tactics thing.  If you allow both kicking and punching the guard will change and you reflect the possibility of attacks from any level.



This guy disagrees....


----------



## Martial D (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I commented that there were other waY's to fight than those dictated by boxing dogma.
> 
> FR suggested that such other methods didn't exist in many. "where are these other ways of fighting" "...where have they been the last 25 years" etc.
> 
> ...



I don't believe that 'boxing dogma' is a thing, hence the quotes.  Also that isn't what the post I responded to said.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> And square shoulders.


Not any style of Mui Thai I've seen or done. They definitely keep the lead shoulder forward.


----------



## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> MMA started out as a free for all and got destroyed by BJJ. Then Muay Thai was brought into the mix + BJJ to dominate year 5-15 (approx).  And for the past 10+ years, it's been dominantly Boxing + Wrestling with BJJ & MT dropping down to secondary arts.
> 
> These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5 (esp. year 1) when it was potluck, bullshido, anything goes almost; where you can write down as many Black Belt degrees and fake & real fight experience as you wanted on the registration and Bruce Buffer woulda announced it.
> 
> So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory  to their style?



So against my better judgement, here goes nothing.

*"These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5"*

Martial artists from other arts entered and they lost to bjj in those early days just like the boxer's and thai boxer's and everyone else.

Ground fighting was new and it was a long slow process of trial and error to get around it for all the fighting methods and combat sports that didn't include it.  MMA is that trial and error process.

But just because because a guy wears a karate gi on his way to an mma ring, it doesn't mean he's a great representative of one of the karate fighting styles. It means in his mind he can fight, no more no less.

*"So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory  to their style?"*

People learn to fight at taekwondo clubs based on taekwondo tournament rules.
Then they go to an mma gym and get taught a different way to fight based on mma rules.
Since they aren't fighting under tkd rules they don't use tkd methods.

Hence numerous mma fighters have traditional arts backgrounds.
And that's how come as mma gets more popular and more people like the idea of competing in it, you get more and more fighters with unconventional styles, including people who use distance for defence and keep their hands low when out of range.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> So against my better judgement, here goes nothing.
> 
> *"These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5"*
> 
> ...


I still don't see the contradiction. Yes, boxing,Mt,bjj and wrestling contain most of the dominant techniques, but that doesn't mean there arent exceptions, nor does it mean everyone uses those techniques the same way. There is a lot of room for stylistic interpretation within the realm of effective technique.


----------



## FriedRice (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> So against my better judgement, here goes nothing.



Complaining already?

*



			"These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5"
		
Click to expand...

*


> Martial artists from other arts entered and they lost to bjj in those early days just like the boxer's and thai boxer's and everyone else.
> 
> Ground fighting was new and it was a long slow process of trial and error to get around it for all the fighting methods and combat sports that didn't include it.  MMA is that trial and error process.



The Gracies didn't care, they risked getting knocked out just like anyone else. This was more than a trial & error process, it was the time that dispelled much of the TMA's balogna. And it changed the world of Martial Arts. 25 years now, what a long *** "fad".



> But just because because a guy wears a karate gi it doesn't mean he's a great representative of one of the karate fighting styles. It means in his mind he can fight, no more no less.



Typical excuse. So where were all these superhuman TMA fighters? They were all biding their time for the right moment right?  And UFC 1-4  wasn't the "right time"....only paying $60,000 to the winner for the night....so that's about $106,000 in today's money for ONE night of fighting.  These "great representatives" of TMA were what....too busy holding seminars for 15-20 people, of which at least 10 of them are their helpers, family & students = non paying? Too busy selling VHS tapes of secret techniques? Making what, $0 to $10,000 per year teaching TMA?

How much did Karate prize point fighters make in 1993, fighting in a rented Middle School gym on a Sunday?  $0 + a trophy? National championship, then make that a rented High School gym on a Saturday. How much do they make today, in 2018? About the same? Oh but the UFC 1-4 was def. not worth their time right?

*



			"So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory  to their style?"
		
Click to expand...

*


> People learn to fight at taekwondo clubs based on taekwondo tournament rules.
> Then they go to an mma gym and get taught a different way to fight based on mma rules.
> Since they aren't fighting under tkd rules they don't use tkd methods.



There were no disqualifying rules in the early UFC's. TKD or any TMA could have done anything they wanted to win.



> Hence numerous mma fighters have traditional arts backgrounds.
> And that's how come as mma gets more popular and more people like the idea of competing in it, you get more and more fighters with unconventional styles, including people who use distance for defence and keep their hands low when out of range.



The UFC has a roster of 500+ fighters, name 100 fighters that fits this description. That's only 20%, surely you can name 100 if this is such a phenomenon right? How about 10%, can you name at least 50 fighters?


----------



## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I still don't see the contradiction. Yes, boxing,Mt,bjj and wrestling contain most of the dominant techniques, but that doesn't mean there arent exceptions, nor does it mean everyone uses those techniques the same way. There is a lot of room for stylistic interpretation within the realm of effective technique.



So are you saying that everyone who fights in mma is fighting with a method that comes entirely from boxing?


----------



## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Complaining already?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I said, not worth the effort.

You and I are having completely different conversations, most of yours being in your head.
You even quoted someone who called mma a fad, but it wasn't a word that appears in any of my posts.

So you enjoy whatever high you get out of telling the world how terrible tma is. It is clearly all you are here for.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> So are you saying that everyone who fights in mma is fighting with a method that comes entirely from boxing?


No. No I'm not. What?


----------



## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> No. No I'm not. What?


Then I can't help you because I can't see how you can miss the contradiction between what you posted and what fried rice posted.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Then I can't help you because I can't see how you can miss the contradiction between what you posted and what fried rice posted.


Because there isn't one...at least not one you've been able to point out.

 And your last post made no sense. I said techniques contained within boxing, Mt, bjj and wrestling' how did you possibly read that as: "everyone who fights in mma is fighting with a method that comes entirely from boxing?"

I feel like you didn't read the post you replied to.


----------



## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Because there isn't one...at least not one you've been able to point out.
> 
> And your last post made no sense. I said techniques contained within boxing, Mt, bjj and wrestling' how did you possibly read that as: "everyone who fights in mma is fighting with a method that comes entirely from boxing?"
> 
> I feel like you didn't read the post you replied to.





DaveB said:


> I commented that there were other waY's to fight than those dictated by boxing dogma.
> 
> FR suggested that such other methods didn't exist in many. "where are these other ways of fighting" "...where have they been the last 25 years" etc.
> 
> ...



So not only don't you see the contradiction you didn't see the post where I pointed it out.

Fried rice expressly took issue with me suggesting there were other ways of fighting, assuming I meant tma fighting styles. 

Meanwhile you were giving examples of how the kind of variety I was discussing was happening now.

Variety not happening ≠ Variety happening.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 5, 2018)

Ok. There is boxing dogma. But it doesn't define boxing. Same with MMA so long as you are within the rules you can go buck wild conceptually.






If we are discussing hands up. Pacman doesn't that much.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I commented that there were other waY's to fight than those dictated by boxing dogma.
> 
> FR suggested that such other methods didn't exist in many. "where are these other ways of fighting" "...where have they been the last 25 years" etc.
> 
> ...



Perhaps if you quoted exact words it would help you. You are mixing up the timeline, and what responses were to whom.

You said my contradiction was with a totally different post dude.


----------



## DaveB (Sep 5, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Their techniques lack power, their hands aren't protecting their upper body, they're over-dependent on kicking, and their foundation is laughable. The way they're fighting is going to lead to a fist in the face or an easy takedown by a grappler. Sparring like that can lead to serious problems when they really need to use their techniques. I understand when you're sparring for fun or practice, but sparring in that fashion simply leads to very bad habits.





jobo said:


> translation,,,, its not mma, so everything they do is therefore rubbish





DaveB said:


> Well there's always one isn't there ;p
> 
> Mma has changed over time and it will continue to do so.
> 
> *Eventually the dogmatic rules that boxing brought with it on its way in to mma will be gotten over as people realise that there is more than one way to fight*.





Martial D said:


> *I think we are there already. Within competitive MMA, there are vastly different successful styles of fighting already happening.*
> 
> What ways to fight are not already there that would be attained by shucking said 'dogmatic rules'?





FriedRice said:


> MMA started out as a free for all and got destroyed by BJJ. Then Muay Thai was brought into the mix + BJJ to dominate year 5-15 (approx).  And for the past 10+ years, it's been dominantly Boxing + Wrestling with BJJ & MT dropping down to secondary arts.
> 
> *These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5 (esp. year 1) *when it was potluck, bullshido, anything goes almost; where you can write down as many Black Belt degrees and fake & real fight experience as you wanted on the registration and Bruce Buffer woulda announced it.
> 
> *So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory*  to their style?





DaveB said:


> It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.
> 
> Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism.
> 
> *As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.*





Martial D said:


> *There are some fighters that successfully utilize mostly kicks and keep their hands low and barely punch.
> 
> Elias Theodorou is one example off the top of my head*.





DaveB said:


> I don't know if it's a stylistic thing,  but when you write things like the above it feels like you have such a skewed view of the things you're discussing that the work it would take to discuss them is just too much.





Martial D said:


> I don't see anything false or unsound about his argument here. Where do you see a disconnect?





DaveB said:


> Your own posts contradict his point.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> bunch of quotes



I think I see where you got confused. 

My first post there was a reply to you. I don't believe there are any dogmatic rules of boxing that influence MMA, nor that those rules, were they to exist, preclude any 'styles of fighting' from MMA. My post about how some people keep their hands low and prefer to kick was to show that there are already many styles of fighting contained within MMA.

You still haven't answered the question I posed at the end of that first post.

SO when rice made his post that basically documents some facts and a timeline about MMA(that is hard to dispute) it was clear that he was also talking about these phantom 'styles of fighting' that are precluded by 'boxing dogma', that you again, have yet to explain.

No contradictions present here.


----------



## Azulx (Sep 5, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Okay so as far as I know neither of these guys are grand masters. I don't know how much they train but I have no reason to suspect that they are anything other than average examples of their arts.
> 
> My question is what do you think about their sparring?
> 
> ...



Thank you for posting this, it's great to see how far I've come over a year ago. Some thing to keep in mind: this was purely for fun against one of my close friends who has about three times more martial arts experience than me. This was about four months after I received my first dan. I'd like to think I've improved since then , but I am still very much a beginner in many things.

Great to see people still watch my videos though!


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 5, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Exactly what I meant.


Very funny. I had never heard the word before and it did not show up on Webster's so I went to the Urban dictionary.


----------



## DaveB (Sep 6, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I think I see where you got confused.
> 
> My first post there was a reply to you. I don't believe there are any dogmatic rules of boxing that influence MMA, nor that those rules, were they to exist, preclude any 'styles of fighting' from MMA. My post about how some people keep their hands low and prefer to kick was to show that there are already many styles of fighting contained within MMA.
> 
> You still haven't answered the question I posed at the end of that first post.



Yes I did, but you are so fixated on your tma vs mma fetish that it skipped you by.

In the list of quotes I posted my response to your question is right after fried rice's post.

In it I tell you I'm not talking about styles to be added to mma.
That I think people get caught up in ideas of how to fight that come from boxing and don't easily understand or appreciate other ways of doing things like fighting with a low guard.

If you don't believe that some people limit their ideas of effective fighting based on what works in a particular combat sport, that's your prerogative. It doesn't change my view.



> SO when rice made his post that basically documents some facts and a timeline about MMA(that is hard to dispute) it was clear that he was also talking about these phantom 'styles of fighting' that are precluded by 'boxing dogma', that you again, have yet to explain.
> 
> No contradictions present here.



Except that I never mentioned any phantom fighting styles. All I mentioned was increased variety, not that it would come from tma or any other fighting arts. That was you guy's assumption, and that assumption is the root of your confusion. 

Where all I'm talking about is greater variety in fighting methods not extra-mma fighting styles, your comments and fried rice's sit in opposition to each other. 

My comments had a context, the discussion of the video and the use/need for a low guard. That's why I included Hanzou's post: context.

Drop Bear has only just chimed in and he got the context of a discussion about raised/lowered guard.

You and fried rice ignored that context because you guys are desperate to find your phantom deluded tma student that you can Destroy in a debate about why tma is better than mma.

No one cares. As FR points out those that didn't know had 25 years to learn the lessons of mma. We get it, "Sparring Good!".


----------



## DaveB (Sep 6, 2018)

Azulx said:


> Thank you for posting this, it's great to see how far I've come over a year ago. Some thing to keep in mind: this was purely for fun against one of my close friends who has about three times more martial arts experience than me. This was about four months after I received my first dan. I'd like to think I've improved since then , but I am still very much a beginner in many things.
> 
> Great to see people still watch my videos though!



Thanks for sharing.

I thought you both gave a fair representation of your respective art's sport fighting styles. Not perfect but not bad either. 

My biggest piece of advice to 1-year-ago you would have been to increase your hip flexibility as it looked like your techniques are being restricted a little, and to make more use of back leg power techniques.

But you did well to keep him at bay with various lead leg techniques. It would be very interesting to see you two spar again a year on.

In particular though I was interested in the response from the forum because there had been some recent discussions about the importance of sparring and particularly sport sparring. 

I was curious to see if your two competitive sparring methods satisfied those who suggested that as key for traditional arts.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 6, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Yes I did, but you are so fixated on your tma vs mma fetish that it skipped you by.



Ok, it's obvious this isn't going anywhere productive. If you insist on telling me what I meant by what I said, despite the fact I've already clarified it for you, I guess I'll leave you to your psychic gifts.

BTW I AM a TMA guy. So much for paying attention lol.


----------



## punisher73 (Sep 6, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> This guy disagrees....



Hmmm, somehow showboating is not indicative of having a guard position.  But, RJJ was very unique with very fast reflexes that he did quite often drop both of his hands to draw the opponent into attacking.  RJJ fought out of the Philly Shell much of the time that keeps one hand to protect the head and the other covers the midsection.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Sep 6, 2018)

DaveB said:


> In particular though I was interested in the response from the forum because there had been some recent discussions about the importance of sparring and particularly sport sparring.
> 
> I was curious to see if your two competitive sparring methods satisfied those who suggested that as key for traditional arts.



what has been repeated over and over on this sight is that sparring is an important role in knowing if what your doing is effective, often also referred to as pressure testing.
in my previous post i said _"this is point sparring, i will comment on it as such"   _between the lines of my comment is the implied meaning that what was shown is not an effective method to use for honing self defense skills.
the first problem we as a group have is having a common language with an understood meaning.  we all use the term sparring but we have completely different visions of what that means in our minds when we use the word.  an important key is that to build self defense skills, sparring must ALSO be pressure testing.  in Azlux's video it is sparring but it is not pressure testing.


----------



## punisher73 (Sep 6, 2018)

DaveB said:


> It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.
> 
> Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism.
> 
> As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.



You disagree, but don't make any comments on "why".  You make a point to argue having your hands down when out of striking range, yet when viewing the video that was not the case, which is why I made my point.  I am not arguing that you can't lower your hands when you are out of striking range.  Those guys WERE IN STRIKING RANGE and still had their hands down.  You don't see this constant hands down stuff outside of the context I said.  We can find exceptions to the rule based on individual fighters and specific circumstances, but you will not find a champion fighter anywhere that does it ALL THE TIME like those guys were.

It has nothing to do with not understanding their methods.  It has to do with crappy sparring habits.  Those guys were in range much of the time for both kicks and punches and were busy bouncing around with their hands down. Rewatch the video, and look for how many times they are in range and white charges in with punches to the body that would have gone to the face in any other combat sport context.  They were NOT using any type of footwork or angles or draws with their hands to support the tactics of their hands being down. 

Again, we can all find examples of when champs drop their hands for specific reasons or that had super attributes and reflexes that they could get away with it.  Most of the time (like the Pac-man video shows) they are unloading offensive punches and then put their hands back up when going defensive.  That is different than being in striking range and doing nothing with your hands down.


----------



## CB Jones (Sep 6, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> You disagree, but don't make any comments on "why".  You make a point to argue having your hands down when out of striking range, yet when viewing the video that was not the case, which is why I made my point.  I am not arguing that you can't lower your hands when you are out of striking range.  Those guys WERE IN STRIKING RANGE and still had their hands down.  You don't see this constant hands down stuff outside of the context I said.  We can find exceptions to the rule based on individual fighters and specific circumstances, but you will not find a champion fighter anywhere that does it ALL THE TIME like those guys were.
> 
> It has nothing to do with not understanding their methods.  It has to do with crappy sparring habits.  Those guys were in range much of the time for both kicks and punches and were busy bouncing around with their hands down. Rewatch the video, and look for how many times they are in range and white charges in with punches to the body that would have gone to the face in any other combat sport context.  They were NOT using any type of footwork or angles or draws with their hands to support the tactics of their hands being down.
> 
> Again, we can all find examples of when champs drop their hands for specific reasons or that had super attributes and reflexes that they could get away with it.  Most of the time (like the Pac-man video shows) they are unloading offensive punches and then put their hands back up when going defensive.  That is different than being in striking range and doing nothing with your hands down.



So to clarify....when you said only....you meant sometimes.


----------



## punisher73 (Sep 6, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> So to clarify....when you said only....you meant sometimes.



Nope, my position would be if you are in striking range, then the hands are in a higher guard position (I consider the Philly Shell also as a higher guard position because it is protecting the face and upper body) and not below the waist and my initial statement was that the only time you see two guys that have their hands at or below their waist the entire time, even within striking distance, is in a sports sparring context when punches are not allowed to the face.  Dropping the hands like RJJ to draw an attack is not a guard position.  Dropping the hands when out of striking range or not engaged is not a guard position. Moving the hands down and about for striking angles while punching is not a guard position.

just to clarify..


----------



## FriedRice (Sep 6, 2018)

DaveB said:


> .....



Learn how to use the quote function first.


----------



## FriedRice (Sep 6, 2018)

DaveB said:


> As I said, not worth the effort.
> 
> You and I are having completely different conversations, most of yours being in your head.
> You even quoted someone who called mma a fad, but it wasn't a word that appears in any of my posts.
> ...



You're just mad because you can't make further arguments.


----------



## FriedRice (Sep 6, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Then I can't help you because I can't see how you can miss the contradiction between what you posted and what fried rice posted.



I never said that, you are very confused. Maybe this thread is just too much for you.


----------



## FriedRice (Sep 6, 2018)

DaveB said:


> So not only don't you see the contradiction you didn't see the post where I pointed it out.
> 
> Fried rice expressly took issue with me suggesting there were other ways of fighting, assuming I meant tma fighting styles.
> 
> ...



What other ways? By aliens with 3 arms or something? You knew that you were suggesting TMA.


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Sep 14, 2018)

kravmaga1 said:


> *Karate* is a Japanese martial art form, while *Taekwondo* originated in Korea. In Karate Strong punches, kicks, takedowns, and blocks are done. The main feature of Taekwondo is effective kicking. it is one of the faster martial arts.


Although it did originate in Korea, much of its influence is originally Japanese. And for additional information, there is documentation of TKD centuries ago, it didn't actually originate around the 1950s. This is from the book JAMA, I recommend it to anyone who wants to know anything about asian martial arts


----------



## pdg (Sep 14, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> And for additional information, there is documentation of TKD centuries ago, it didn't actually originate around the 1950s



Oh really?


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Sep 14, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> Although it did originate in Korea, much of its influence is originally Japanese. And for additional information, there is documentation of TKD centuries ago, it didn't actually originate around the 1950s. This is from the book JAMA, I recommend it to anyone who wants to know anything about asian martial arts



I dont think he likes to acknowledge the japanese roots readily or easily.  Creator i mean.   


Also guess time, is the one in black the TKD person?  Looks more TKDey to me.


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 15, 2018)

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Shotokan


Rat said:


> I dont think he likes to acknowledge the japanese roots readily or easily.  Creator i mean.
> 
> 
> Also guess time, is the one in black the TKD person?  Looks more TKDey to me.



Yeah, the black uniform is from a non - Olympic style of TKD. The white uniform was from karate...from a school that does WKF sparring, I'd guess.


----------



## Martial_Kumite (Sep 15, 2018)

I did notice that the individual in black had a tendency to have his arms go wide when he uses his kicks, which I would imagine would slow down the s speed and decrease his balance. I am not familiar enough with TKD practices to know if this is common or if it is just a bad habit. Not only this, but his kicks appear to inaccurate and soft ( I am aware that this was probably not done with full contact) to be effective.


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 15, 2018)

Martial_Kumite said:


> I did notice that the individual in black had a tendency to have his arms go wide when he uses his kicks, which I would imagine would slow down the s speed and decrease his balance. I am not familiar enough with TKD practices to know if this is common or if it is just a bad habit. Not only this, but his kicks appear to inaccurate and soft ( I am aware that this was probably not done with full contact) to be effective.



Using the arms like that definitely doesn't slow form your kicking or unbalance you.  And it helps block responsive kicks coming in   It definitely can leave you vulnerable to a head punch counter, but if that's either prohibited or low value technique by the rules he's used to competing under, it's simply pragmatic and not sloppy to use your arms like that.

Here's highlights from the 2012 Olympics. If people are using arms like that in the Olympics, it's not sloppy, but instead simple pragmatism.


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## Martial_Kumite (Sep 15, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Using the arms like that definitely doesn't slow form your kicking or unbalance you.  And it helps block responsive kicks coming in   It definitely can leave you vulnerable to a head punch counter, but if that's either prohibited or low value technique by the rules he's used to competing under, it's simply pragmatic and not sloppy to use your arms like that.
> 
> Here's highlights from the 2012 Olympics. If people are using arms like that in the Olympics, it's not sloppy, but instead simple pragmatism.



Thank you for the information. My comment on the arms making it harder to balance is only from personal experience, and what I have observed from my partners that I train with. 

Also, your video says that it is blocked by the Olympic committee.


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## Mitlov (Sep 16, 2018)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Thank you for the information. My comment on the arms making it harder to balance is only from personal experience, and what I have observed from my partners that I train with.
> 
> Also, your video says that it is blocked by the Olympic committee.



Click the "watch it on Youtube" link that comes up after you press play.


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## JR 137 (Sep 16, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> Although it did originate in Korea, much of its influence is originally Japanese. And for additional information, there is documentation of TKD centuries ago, it didn't actually originate around the 1950s. This is from the book JAMA, I recommend it to anyone who wants to know anything about asian martial arts


I don’t know the exact book you’re referencing, but I’ve seen several claiming what you’re saying.  They’re just not correct, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Much as BJJ was initially a few Brazilians’ adaptation of Judo, TKD was a few Koreans’ adaptation of Karate, most notably Shotokan.  Those that claimed otherwise in the beginning of TKD (early 1950s?) had an agenda.

TKD is not hundreds of years old.  Not even close.  Korea had its own indigenous arts before TKD, as practically everyone everywhere did.  According to most historians who are unbiased and actually knowledgeable beyond reading a few texts and copying what they’ve read, TKD’s history isn’t exactly what the founders claimed.

None of that is a bash on TKD nor does it mean that TKD isn’t its own distinctive style.  It just means that the history of it as claimed by its founders isn’t accurate.  Same as baseball.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I don’t know the exact book you’re referencing, but I’ve seen several claiming what you’re saying.  They’re just not correct, either intentionally or unintentionally.
> 
> Much as BJJ was initially a few Brazilians’ adaptation of Judo, TKD was a few Koreans’ adaptation of Karate, most notably Shotokan.  Those that claimed otherwise in the beginning of TKD (early 1950s?) had an agenda.
> 
> ...


 
The same rhetoric plagues TSD history, also plagues TSD.

Tang Soo Do is a one or two thousand year old martial art, so sez the powers that be.

So it must be true. 

And new plebs swallow doctrine like its gospel.
and grow up to preach it.

Yes, a really tiny percentage of TSD is taekyon (a korean kicking sport.) but really its Japanese style karate. However, Korean post war, anti Japanese ultranationalist politics and beliefs have created a false narrative.

The westerners who are not culturally predisposed by Confucianism's core of statist-patriachy, and social conformity are the first to smell a rat, at least the ones who have a high enough IQ to perceive there is something amiss in the koolaid punchbowl.

Dont Ask Questions. Dont Rock the Boat. Dont embarrass Master, or Headmaster. Save face, dont lose Face... dont make others Lose face.

This is the way we do it, this is the way it has always been done, and even when we dont know why....we will still keep doing it.

It would be nice to decouple the martial arts from the socio-political cultural baggage.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I don’t know the exact book you’re referencing, but I’ve seen several claiming what you’re saying.  They’re just not correct, either intentionally or unintentionally.
> 
> Much as BJJ was initially a few Brazilians’ adaptation of Judo, TKD was a few Koreans’ adaptation of Karate, most notably Shotokan.  Those that claimed otherwise in the beginning of TKD (early 1950s?) had an agenda.
> 
> ...


Wait...what history do people claim that baseball has? I always just assumed people played stickball, then someone realized if he turned it into an official sport, he could make a league, and make some money from it.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Sep 16, 2018)

Mitlov said:


> Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Shotokan
> 
> 
> Yeah, the black uniform is from a non - Olympic style of TKD. The white uniform was from karate...from a school that does WKF sparring, I'd guess.



Not seen either enough to actually compare the two.

Pretty amusing when one of your teachers says or tries not to say its basically karate to somone who has done karate. 



To edit my above post, i dont agree with the statement its older than the 50's some of the indigenous Korean styles yes, but nothing cited as TKD or the TKD you know/are referring to has evidence of existing before the 1900's*, at least to my knowledge.      I dont know enough about karate but is Karate in the context of the version TKD is based on that old?  Like old enough to actually allow TKD to be thousands of years old. 

*Technically i think it was being made while he was studying Karate, but that doesnt place it to be older than the 1900's. Just to elaborate on that point.

Good point that the "a killing art" book has is, its roots dont determine its effectiveness and its largely irreverent to the style if its Korean, Japanese, Chinese etc. (yes its dishonest if its a direct lie, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work)


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## Buka (Sep 16, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> The same rhetoric plagues TSD history, also plagues TSD.
> 
> Tang Soo Do is a one or two thousand year old martial art, so sez the powers that be.
> 
> ...



Love it.


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## pdg (Sep 16, 2018)

I'm well past debating where or where not tkd came from. I'll discuss it quite happily but lose interest if someone starts getting a bit too "oh, this is definitely what happened, I read an article"...

I have a belief of it's origins and influences (some greater than others), but it's a pretty fluid mindset - if something is documented and looks to make sense then I can choose to accept or integrate it, or if it doesn't make sense or is exceedingly tenuous I can either discard it or shelve it for later.

Funnily enough just the other day I was 'informed' in person of the taekkyeon heritage - it's easiest to smile and nod...


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## JR 137 (Sep 16, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Wait...what history do people claim that baseball has? I always just assumed people played stickball, then someone realized if he turned it into an official sport, he could make a league, and make some money from it.


“History” says baseball was invented by Abner Doubleday.  Doubleday was a civil war hero, and the story was used to make people feel all happy about America’s pastime.  Truth is Doubleday had NOTHING to do with inventing baseball.  It was a story couped up by a sporting goods retailer and others.

Very, very brief bit.  That whole story is a bit shady, but this is the gist of it...
Who invented baseball?

Not much different than Korean nationalism in TKD claims.


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## Buka (Sep 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> “History” says baseball was invented by Abner Doubleday.  Doubleday was a civil war hero, and the story was used to make people feel all happy about America’s pastime.  Truth is Doubleday had NOTHING to do with inventing baseball.  It was a story couped up by a sporting goods retailer and others.
> 
> Very, very brief bit.  That whole story is a bit shady, but this is the gist of it...
> Who invented baseball?
> ...



To my nonsensical mind, this is what makes baseball a Martial Art. Doubleday, obviously being a Grandmaster.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> “History” says baseball was invented by Abner Doubleday.  Doubleday was a civil war hero, and the story was used to make people feel all happy about America’s pastime.  Truth is Doubleday had NOTHING to do with inventing baseball.  It was a story couped up by a sporting goods retailer and others.
> 
> Very, very brief bit.  That whole story is a bit shady, but this is the gist of it...
> Who invented baseball?
> ...


Any relationship to Nelson doubleday, former president of the mets?


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## JR 137 (Sep 16, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Any relationship to Nelson doubleday, former president of the mets?


No idea.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> No idea.


I'm curious now, I'll look into it. Knew doubleday when I was a kid, I would ask him but he passed away a few years back unfortunately. Would be cool to know if he was related to a civil war hero


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