# Branches of Wing Chun question



## Xue Sheng (Mar 1, 2021)

Not trying to start and don't want a "My lineage is better than your lineage" thread, so please keep the politics to a minimum.

Years ago when I was learning Sil Lum Tao for the first time I wanted a video to help me remember what I was learning. I ended up getting a VCD from China because, as I thought then, where better to get a video of a chinese martial art than China. I got it, put it in the DVD player and what I sa was rather different than what I was being taught.

I later discovered what had happened was that I was I was being taught Sil Lum Tao in the Ip Man branch of Wing Chun and the VCD was the Pan Nam branch of Wing Chun. Up to that point I didn't even know there were different, non-Ip Man branches of Wing Chun

Last night I was thinking about this and out of curiosity I started looking for a branch of Wing Chun that was not from Ip Man and I did not find one.

Made me think about Yang stye taijiquan, finding a branch that does not come from Yang Chengfu is near impossible, and those I have seen that claimed to be from Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou or Yang Shaohou likely are not. Save one I saw, he was an old Yang stylist in China who, to be honest ,I am not sure if he is still alive, but what he did have the characteristics of what I would expect in Yang style that predates Yang Chengfu's change to the style.

And I am now thinking the same about Wing Chun, do any of the non-Ip Man branches still exist, and if so, do any exist outside of China? And how rare are they?

I also know there is a very old Chinese practice of claiming lineages to famous folks to better sell your product (style). Could this have occured in Wing Chun? one branch claiming to be from Ip Man when they were actually part of another branch?


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## obi_juan_salami (Mar 1, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not trying to start and don't want a "My lineage is better than your lineage" thread, so please keep the politics to a minimum.
> 
> Years ago when I was learning Sil Lum Tao for the first time I wanted a video to help me remember what I was learning. I ended up getting a VCD from China because, as I thought then, where better to get a video of a chinese martial art than China. I got it, put it in the DVD player and what I sa was rather different than what I was being taught.
> 
> ...



They certainly still exist to varying degrees of quality inside and outside mainland china. i think the yip man style is just more mainstream in the west with the popularity of bruce lee and by extension his teacher. This made it more saught after in hong kong over the years with westerners taking it back home and openening schools. Aside from the commercialisation and overall availability in my experience its certainly more accessible as a style and more conducive to class style, public learning. 

there are obviously snake oil salesmen like there are in any popular business. people use famous masters names all the time to bolster their marketing. i saw an intervirw with ip chun saying there were plenty using his name on their schools after only a couple weeks visit in hong kong. 

We learn hong kong style and guangzhou style in australia.


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## geezer (Mar 1, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> ...there are obviously *snake oil *salesmen like there are in any popular business.



The real question here is about snake oil. Is it oil made _from_ snakes ....or is it oil made _for_ snakes? If it's for snakes, how do they pay for it? And why do snakes want to get oily anyway?

Really, I think the whole concept is highly suspect.


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## BrendanF (Mar 1, 2021)

Yeah there's the Pan Nam/Sum Nung line, Pao Fa Lien, Yuen Kay San and others that are not YM derived.  Then too there are the Weng Chun lines.


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## obi_juan_salami (Mar 1, 2021)

geezer said:


> The real question here is about snake oil. Is it oil made _from_ snakes ....or is it oil made _for_ snakes? If it's for snakes, how do they pay for it? And why do snakes want to get oily anyway?
> 
> Really, I think the whole concept is highly suspect.



Mate, its made BY snakes. To fund the International Snake Invasion Society or ISIS.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 2, 2021)

geezer said:


> The real question here is about snake oil. Is it oil made _from_ snakes ....or is it oil made _for_ snakes? If it's for snakes, how do they pay for it? And why do snakes want to get oily anyway?
> 
> Really, I think the whole concept is highly suspect.


And any oil made from snakes, well, that just conjures some disturbing images.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 2, 2021)




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## APL76 (Mar 2, 2021)

I have learned both Yip Man Wing Chun and Yuen Kay San Wing Chun.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 2, 2021)

APL76 said:


> I have learned both Yip Man Wing Chun and Yuen Kay San Wing Chun.



Are there major differences, or are they similar?

The times I trained WIng Chun, they both originated from Ip Man, just one was from Ip Ching and the other was from Leung Sheung and there were slight differences


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 2, 2021)

This WC system has a lot of white crane flavor.


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## Eric_H (Mar 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This WC system has a lot of white crane flavor.



When I learned that form back in 2003 or so it was called Saap Yat Kuen. Guess they're changing the name to sell to the WC audience now.


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## APL76 (Mar 3, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Are there major differences, or are they similar?
> 
> The times I trained WIng Chun, they both originated from Ip Man, just one was from Ip Ching and the other was from Leung Sheung and there were slight differences


To an outside observer they would probably lock quite similar but when you know them they might as well be different martial arts.


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## Poppity (Mar 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This WC system has a lot of white crane flavor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure this is Weng Chun.  I understand there is some controversy as to whether it is separate to wing chun, but Michael Tang the grandson of Tang Yik, a fairly renowned practitioner of weng chun has always maintained its an entirely separate art.

I believe Cheng Kwong, the man in the video was Andreas Hoffman's teacher, who runs a very successful weng chun/bjj/mma school/s in Europe


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## geezer (Mar 3, 2021)

Eric_H said:


> When I learned that form back in 2003 or so it was called Saap Yat Kuen. Guess they're changing the name to sell to the WC audience now.


Saap yat kuen ...Eleven fist?


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## Eric_H (Mar 4, 2021)

Yep, though looking at the form for the first time since I learned it, I see some differences between it and what the other video has:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 4, 2021)

There are less body movement in the WC clip. There are more body movement in the white crane clip. Both are southern CMA systems. But the basic training are quite different.

WC clip - when he moves his arm, his body is not moving.






White crane - when he moves his body, his arm is not moving.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 4, 2021)

What's the difference between the "Yong Chun White Crane" and WC? It sounds like the white crane has strong connection with the WC system.

Here are some clips of Yong Chun White Crane.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 5, 2021)

A bit of thread drift here, but could someone please clarify a couple things for me?

Is Weng Chun a different and distinct system from Wing Chun?  Is it a lineage variant?  Is it just a spelling variant embraced by a certain lineage?

Is Yon Chun White Crane part of the Fukien White Crane family of systems?

Same question for Yue Nam White Crane.

Thanks.


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## Poppity (Mar 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> A bit of thread drift here, but could someone please clarify a couple things for me?
> 
> Is Weng Chun a different and distinct system from Wing Chun?  Is it a lineage variant?  Is it just a spelling variant embraced by a certain lineage?
> 
> ...




KPM did a bang up job of explaining the origins of wing chun and weng chun in an earlier thread.  Whether they are the same or not depends on who you talk to and what they are selling.

What is weng chun? | MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Though seems now the marketing of weng chun is sold increasingly as a more authentic/traditional/artisan/free-range organic with no artificial flavours or colourings wing chun.

Pick your poison.


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## obi_juan_salami (Mar 5, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> A bit of thread drift here, but could someone please clarify a couple things for me?
> 
> Is Weng Chun a different and distinct system from Wing Chun?  Is it a lineage variant?  Is it just a spelling variant embraced by a certain lineage?
> 
> ...



re wing chun and weng chun, it is my underatanding they are two different styles. however they were passed down by the same and/or related ancestors in the same region so 'cross polonation' of sorts did occur. Thats the best way i can put it.


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## geezer (Mar 5, 2021)

Snark said:


> KPM did a bang up job of explaining the origins of wing chun and weng chun in an earlier thread...



Thanks for providing that link ....I'd forgotten about it. My old Wing Tsun sifu did research on the subject, wrote a book, and came to pretty much the same conclusion that Weng Chun and Wing Chun were always distinct arts that may have evolved from similar root arts, and so shared certain traits.  Additionally, their practitioners had some contact and over the generations some borrowing or "cross fertilization" occurred, adding some more similarities. So, in KPM's words, "cousins" that share a name and some traits.


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## geezer (Mar 5, 2021)

obi_juan_salami said:


> re wing chun and weng chun, it is my underatanding they are two different styles. however they were passed down by the same and/or related ancestors in the same region so 'cross polonation' of sorts did occur. Thats the best way i can put it.



Ha ...we were both writing these posts at exactly the same time and using almost the same words. Clearly, great minds think alike!!!


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## Poppity (Mar 6, 2021)

geezer said:


> Thanks for providing that link ....I'd forgotten about it. My old Wing Tsun sifu did research on the subject, wrote a book, and came to pretty much the same conclusion that Weng Chun and Wing Chun were always distinct arts that may have evolved from similar root arts, and so shared certain traits.  Additionally, their practitioners had some contact and over the generations some borrowing or "cross fertilization" occurred, adding some more similarities. So, in KPM's words, "cousins" that share a name and some traits.




I think the distinction is further muddied by the changes and adaptions in different wing chun lineages, with some looking more similar to Weng chun than others.

A good few years ago I started learning the Hoffman version of Weng chun in the UK. It had a very large bjj element attached and the fa kuen form I learned had very pronounced body movements.

 there certainly appears to be some similarity in the wing chun I learnt at least within the element of power generation and movement, but I did not study Weng chun for long in all fairness.

For me Andreas Hoffman's version felt pretty much like an MMA. But that's just my view.


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## hunschuld (Mar 9, 2021)

Snark said:


> I think the distinction is further muddied by the changes and adaptions in different wing chun lineages, with some looking more similar to Weng chun than others.
> 
> A good few years ago I started learning the Hoffman version of Weng chun in the UK. It had a very large bjj element attached and the fa kuen form I learned had very pronounced body movements.
> 
> ...




Andreas is one of the more remarkable martial artists I have had the pleasure to meet and touch hands. Hard to believe one person could learn so many different arts so in depth. Not a surprise that you found BJJ elements since he is highly ranked in BJJ.

He does focus on fighting effectiveness so again the MMA feel makes sense. He once was known for his Dragon Style in Germany before the weng chun. He emphasis body usage which most wing chun schools don't focus on to the same degree.

Leung Jan and Fung Ching came to an understanding that their arts had a common source and developed differently. Could have just been politeness since Chan Wah was very upset that someone not linked to Leung Jan was claiming to teach Wing.weng chun


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## jlq (Mar 9, 2021)

There are many branches of Wing Chun practiced in Mainland China.

The most famous or well known ones all descend from basically three sources as classified by the Fatsaan Wing Chun Association:

Law Man Gung

Leung Jan

Fung Siu Ching

Then there are those from other sources:

Paau Fa Lien Wing Chun
Cho Ga Ban Chung Wing Chun
Various branches of Hei Ban (opera) Wing Chun

Then of course the many sub-branches within these.

The "Weng Chun" has caused quite a conundrum.

Firstly, because the first one to promote this art in the


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## jlq (Mar 9, 2021)

There are many different branches of Wing Chun practiced in Mainland China. 

Basically, they all go back to the same few "mythological" ancestors. 

The Fatsaan Wing Chun Association has established three main "strains":

1. Leung Jan
2. Fung Siu Ching
3. Law Man Gung

A short, non exhaustive list of styles practiced in Fatsaan today:

Gwok Si Wing Chun
Lun Gai Wing Chun
Pan Nam Wing Chun
Lai Hip Zi Wing Chun
Yuen Kei Saan Wing Chun
(Leung Ngau - Leung Jan Sing - lineage)
Sum Nung  Chun
Yiu Si Wing Chun
Lam  Soi Man Wing Chun
Lam Soi Boh Wing Chun
Zheng Do Wing Chun
Sei Mun Wing Chun
Jeung Bo Wing Chun
etc. 

In Gwongjaau there is:

Sum Nung Wing 
Wong Jing Wing Chun
Saam Gaau Wing Chun
Gulo Wing Chun
Yuen Chai Wan Wing Chun
Ban Chung Cho Ga Wing Chun
Paau Fa Lien Wing Chun
etc. 

In Seundak there is also Chan Yu Min Siu Lam Wing Chun (they use the "eternal" character, though). 

This so called "Weng Chun" has created quite a mess or caused a lot of confusion. 

Because there was very little information available about it, people in the West started making up stories and connecting some dots in ways which have no basis in reality. 

Andreas Hofmann's "Went Chun" is entirely his own creation based on a few short visits in HK and China and what he picked up from other sources. 

His stuff is not the historical Weng Chun and as such looking to it for an idea of the old ways or the style's origins is wrong. 

"Weng Chun" does not move or use the body as Mr. Hoffman does. 

But at the time he came into the limelight nobody knew any better because there was nothing  compare with. 

Now, what is "Weng Chun" really? 

First of all, we need to understand that it is technically not a style as such. 

The various teachers of "Weng Chun" all had a mixed curriculum with material from different sources and different styles, yet they called everything "Weng Chun"... 

Take Zhu Chung Man as an example: he learned CLF first, then later some material from the Dong brothers, who had gotten this from Fong Siu Ching. Later again he picked up a pole form from another source, etc. How can Fa Kuen, Ping Kuen, Siu Mui Fa Baat Gwa (?) be "Weng Chun"? 
Something similar applies to Tang Yik's Weng Chun. It should be noted that his father's students in Mainland China don't call what they learnt from Tang Suen "Weng Chun". Instead they call only the material which came from Fung Siu Ching "Wing Chun", the rest is Hung Kuen and Siulam Gung Fu, basically. They also play it exactly how other old styles of Wing  and the various types of Hei Ban (opera) Wing Chun do. Same type of moves, same stances, etc. Tang Yik played his art differently. 

There is much strife in the "Weng Chun" community because of this and because there are different versions of certain stories left by the ancestors and everybody believes that the particular version they believe in, is the correct one. 

Just like in "Wing Chun". 



So, was there some old style called "Weng Chun"? 

Or is it just a name some people chose to use as an umbrella term for their particular mix of Gung Fu knowledge? 

Just like Chan Yu Min did. 

Many people think that him using the "eternal" character is evidence that that was the original name - especially so because his descendants will adamantly claim that this is so. 

However, there are still people alive today - inside and outside of his lineage - that it was a name he chose for his school to distinguish himself from others. Before that no one used that character. 

Fung Siu Ching is also a rather obscure character. The common story told about him through the Yuen Kei Saan/Sum Nung lineage has some serious problems and stands in quite stark contrast with what the "Weng Chun" people say about him. 

But that is another discussion.


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## jlq (Mar 9, 2021)

Another thing which should be cleared  is that Cheng Gwong's   the forms are his personal creations - they are not  and any resemblance or seeming connections to other arts should not be seen as evidence that the  art had  any  such connections. 

The "Sup Yat Sau" is just another name for used  by some people in HK or abroad for  certain form. This form was/is called Wing Chun Kuen/Weng Chun Kuen - nobody adopted that name  to align themselves with the commercially more successful "Wing Chun".


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## Svarog (Mar 10, 2021)

I am practicing Snake Crane Wing Chun, it comes from Law Man Gung, as well as Yuen Kai San's and Cheung Bo's style. There are also styles that come from Leung Jan , like few styles of Side Body WCK. Unfortunately, first version of Leung Jan's art was lost, although many claim they are preserving exactly that style, there was a lot of linage mixing and pure form of Leung Jan's older version of WCK does not exist any more. Same goes with Chan Wah Shun's WCK, At some point Chan's descendants mixed their WCK with some other southern art and portion of WCK in that style is much smaller than portion of other arts. This art  now known as 'Weng Chun" which is different from Weng Chun that comes from fung siu ching. Fung Siu Ching's weng chun is a mix of hung gar and WCK and it is much hung gar then anything else. Pan Nam's style is a mix of WCK several lineages ( he even learned from Yip Man or a short period of time), hung gar and eagle claw styles. Yiu Kai & Yiu Choi wing chun is a mix of multiple lineages. 
About Pao Fa Lien , there are two distinctive styles, Hong Kong version is much more Wing Chun than Foshan version. Second version is much more white crane than anything else ( I am practicing White Crane , Zong He and Su He style and I can recognize crane when i see one). How these two version of the same style became so different is an interesting question. At the end there is Cho family art that these days call their art Wing Chun while portion of wing chun in their style is extremely small. Cho art is a mix of white crane, CLF, hung gar ,wck and some other arts.


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## nikthegreek_3 (Mar 10, 2021)

Siu Lim Tao lineage:  Wong Shun Leung  - deep analysis (2 and 1). You will find deferenses everywhere. In my opinion, provided that one is knowing what he wants to develop, it is good. Watch this:


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