# JTO: Aborigines offended by ice dance



## Clark Kent (Jan 25, 2010)

*Aborigines offended by ice dance
By  - 01-24-2010 04:10 PM
Originally Posted at: The Japan Times Online*
====================

MELBOURNE, Australia (AP) An Aboriginal-themed routine by two Russian ice dancers has stirred up a pre-Olympic controversy, with some indigenous Australians blasting the "rip off" of their culture and Canadian native leaders worrying about the insensitivity of the skaters. 
 World champions Oksana Domnina and Maxim Shabalin danced at the European Championships in Estonia last week dressed in brown-toned costumes adorned with leaves and white Aboriginal-style markings, to music that included a didgeridoo riff.








 

 

 

 

 




Read More...


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The Japan Times Online


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## Sukerkin (Jan 25, 2010)

:sigh: I have decided that, henceforth, I shall be offended by anyone from any nation portraying the English culture without paying due licensing fees, particularly when all they can manage is a shallow stereotype of the true richness of my cultures history.


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## David43515 (Jan 25, 2010)

I personally feel deeply insulted when anyone who is not an American national uses electric light or flies in an airplane. It`s obvious that they are simply trying to "rip off" our indiginous culture.

However I`m willing to let them all continue to mimic Michael Jackson as long as I don`t have to watch.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 25, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> the true richness of my cultures history.


 
Yeah right........


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## Carol (Jan 25, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> :sigh: I have decided that, henceforth, I shall be offended by anyone from any nation portraying the English culture without paying due licensing fees, particularly when all they can manage is a shallow stereotype of the true richness of my cultures history.



Will you take Madonna back?  Please?


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## JDenver (Jan 25, 2010)

Ick.

Cue the posts where we can all tell others what, why, and how they should feel about themselves and their culture.  How dare someone feel offended!  Why can't they be as strong as me?

Frankly, all of our opinions on this mean less than the opinions of those people portrayed.


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## Tez3 (Jan 25, 2010)

As always, pleasant to see the sensitive, caring and respectful side of MTers coming out. I expect it's all a big joke until they make fun of you then it's very different.

It's not much to ask to be given a bit of dignity after the way they've been treated.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 26, 2010)

Honestly, in the words of Victor Meldrew, I don't believe it! I believe even less that there are those that don't see that taking serious offense from this is not rational let alone anything else.

If you are one of those that do feel that it is normal to be outraged about anything and everything, I would suggest it is better to save your ire for things that matter; otherwise the risk is run of protest about serious issues being lost in the tumult.

Oh and the irony of my position is not lost on me by the way :lol:.


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## pgsmith (Jan 26, 2010)

> Frankly, all of our opinions on this mean less than the opinions of those people portrayed


No, just yours. My opinions mean a lot to me! 

Actually, I agree with Sukerkin. It seems to me that it was a perfect opportunity to share the truth about their culture with others, and comment on the ways that the actuality differs from what was portrayed. Instead, what is being written is that they are whining about being offended because someone noticed them. I put that right there with the people that whine about the name of the Redskins, Braves, or Pirates ball clubs. Being born and raised in Texas, I didn't get offended when my father-in-law, who was in Texas for the first time over Christmas, remarked that he surprised that he didn't see any Cadillacs with longhorns mounted on the front.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2010)

So dressing up as black people, using sacred tribal symbols and mimicking sacred rites is fine?  It obviously isn't to the Aboriginal people who've complained so why are we making fun of them being upset? I'm not offended by it, it's not my culture but I do find it odd that so many people find they can be amused by their obvious distress over this. I don't think 'horns on a Cadillac' has any religious or faith significance does it? 





pgsmith you really need to read up on Australian history before making such a crass comments.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 26, 2010)

Speaking for me, I'm not making fun and the point is neither were the skaters.

Any road, not going to change anyone's mind, no matter how daft they're being, so what's the bleeding point?

I've been meaning to take a break from the trivial torrent that is the Net for a while.  Now's the time.

See you all ... sometime ... if I don't come back, it's was fun for a while.


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## K-man (Jan 26, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I personally feel deeply insulted when anyone who is not an American national uses electric light or flies in an airplane. It`s obvious that they are simply trying to "rip off" our indiginous culture.
> 
> However I`m willing to let them all continue to mimic Michael Jackson as long as I don`t have to watch.


Which brings us to a skit on Australian Television.. 



  The more senior of us would remember the popular B & W minstrel show from the 60s. (For those too young to know or too stoned to remember   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show  )  Just shows how politically incorrect we can be!   
Maybe, just maybe, the Aborigines have a point.  :asian:


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## mook jong man (Jan 27, 2010)

The aborigines would probably have liked to have been asked permission and probably would have only have been too happy to teach them so they could do it properly.

It is also worth noting that in aboriginal culture women are strictly forbidden to perform some dances as these can only be performed by men .

There are also certain ceremonies and dances that are only allowed to be  be performed by women .


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## David43515 (Jan 27, 2010)

To be fair the newspaper story doesn`t say why the protesters were upset, just that they felt thier culture was being "ripped off." No mention was made of any religious intolerances. Anyone who was unfamiliar with the topic might just as easily beleive that it was because the dancers chose to use a digeridoo in thier music.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2010)

David43515 said:


> To be fair the newspaper story doesn`t say why the protesters were upset, just that they felt thier culture was being "ripped off." No mention was made of any religious intolerances. Anyone who was unfamiliar with the topic might just as easily beleive that it was because the dancers chose to use a digeridoo in thier music.


 

Fair comment.
It may have been ignorance on the Russians part, perhaps they thought it was folk music and dances instead of spiritual and sacred acts. 

I wouldn't care if they'd performed English country dances such as Morris etc or even as Beefeaters or Guardsmen that sort of thing but I think if they'd dressed up as vicars or priests and danced through Mass or funeral service Christians too would be upset. I'd be upset if they'd dressed as rabbis and danced a version of Kol Nidre, I would be offended  at the lack of thought and respect for anothers culture and religion.


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## JDenver (Jan 27, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> Speaking for me, I'm not making fun and the point is neither were the skaters.



No, the point is that you have no standing to TELL ABORIGINAL PEOPLE HOW THEY SHOULD FEEL ABOUT THE SKATERS.

It doesn't matter that you're not offended and is frankly insensitive of you to ignore and belittle those who are.  They're offended, what's with the judgment?


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## David43515 (Jan 27, 2010)

Sorry, I still say that with all the real intentional discrimination going on in the world, getting bent out of shape because two skaters thousands of miles away unintentionally offended you by using your traditional music and costumes that look vaguely similar to your ritual symbals is pretty childish. Was anyone injured? Was anyone prevented from doing something that they had a right to do? No in both cases. All that happened was that for 5 minutes someone was offended.

I brought this up on another forum and was called "racist", "extremist", and "a typical right wing prat" among other things. I was told that because I`m "white, male, and Mormon" I couldn`t understand how harmful this skating routine was to the sensabilities of the group protesting it.

I was born white and male with little choice in the matter as I recall. I did choose my religion but fail to see how relavent it was to the discussion. However I have had plenty of experience with what I consider "real" discrimination. I`ve been told to my face in the US and other countries that I was being denied jobs and housing because "we don`t hire white guys". I`ve dated girls whose families forbid them to see me because I wasn`t black, Mexican, Japanese, or Catholic. I dated a girl whose family thought I was the best boyfriend she ever had for three years but when I proposed to her the father threatened to disown her if she didn`t stop seeing me because I wasn`t Japanese. On different occations I`ve been spit on, beaten up, fired, and had my life threatened when people found out I was a Mormon. I`ve had food and drinks thrown on me for speaking with an American accent in the wrong places in Australia. Those were all intentional acts. Every week I put up with unintentional racist comments from my students and coworkers here in Japan just because they live such insulated lives they don`t realize they`re being offensive. And since there`s no malice involved and they really are trying to be polite, I usually let it slide without comment. But after all that I think there`s more going on in the world to worry about than a skater`s choice of music and costumes.

Australia has treated it`s Aboriginal peoples like dirt for a long long time. They tried to wipe them out physically, culturally, and they still run roughshod over them in the courts etc. With all those big problems to fix down under, does a 5 minute skate routine done in the middle of Europe really carry that much weight? Am I really missing that much of the big picture?


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## K-man (Jan 27, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I was born white and male with little choice in the matter as I recall. I did choose my religion but fail to see how relavent it was to the discussion. However I have had plenty of experience with what I consider "real" discrimination. I`ve been told to my face in the US and other countries that I was being denied jobs and housing because "we don`t hire white guys". I`ve dated girls whose families forbid them to see me because I wasn`t black, Mexican, Japanese, or Catholic. I dated a girl whose family thought I was the best boyfriend she ever had for three years but when I proposed to her the father threatened to disown her if she didn`t stop seeing me because I wasn`t Japanese. On different occations I`ve been spit on, beaten up, fired, and had my life threatened when people found out I was a Mormon. I`ve had food and drinks thrown on me for speaking with an American accent in the wrong places in Australia. Those were all intentional acts. Every week I put up with unintentional racist comments from my students and coworkers here in Japan just because they live such insulated lives they don`t realize they`re being offensive. And since there`s no malice involved and they really are trying to be polite, I usually let it slide without comment. But after all that I think there`s more going on in the world to worry about than a skater`s choice of music and costumes.
> 
> Australia has treated it`s Aboriginal peoples like dirt for a long long time. They tried to wipe them out physically, culturally, and they still run roughshod over them in the courts etc. With all those big problems to fix down under, does a 5 minute skate routine done in the middle of Europe really carry that much weight? Am I really missing that much of the big picture?


I would suggest you have enough of your own personal problems without buying in for more.
Your comments on Australia's treatment of Aboriginals is inflammatory, offensive and in poor taste.  Many countries have issues from their colonial past and Australia in no different.  There are problems but it is not necessarily the fault of the court system. The great majority of Australians treat Aboriginals the same way as they would treat any other person, with politeness and respect.  
And, yes you are missing the big picture. It was the Aboriginal people who were upset by insensitive use of their culture, not the non indigenous.  
Well done with your comments. You've managed to upset Aboriginals and non-aboriginals alike.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 27, 2010)

Im certainly not picking any sides here, but in relation to this issue, its about people making us feel bad.

The only one, who can make you feel bad, is you. You have to choose to be offended by what others say or do.

Religious folks get offended all the time when atheists say things about their particular religion, hence a new blasphemy law in Ireland. Atheists get bent out of shape when the religious guys say bad things about them. Look at this forum, say something even remotely negative about the USA, the UK and some other places and people pounce on you like Homer Simpson on a donut. 

You will never go through life unscathed, you may be physically assaulted, you will be emotionally distraught many times, you will feel insecure, and yes you will have your feelings hurt many times by things people say or do.

The thing is look at everything in context, for the most part, people are kind, and do not go out to intentionally hurt your feelings. Yes people do many stupid things, so we all need to be a little bit more forgiving and a little less judgmental, it makes going through life so much ********** easier for everyone.


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## David43515 (Jan 28, 2010)

K-man said:


> I would suggest you have enough of your own personal problems without buying in for more.
> Your comments on Australia's treatment of Aboriginals is inflammatory, offensive and in poor taste. Many countries have issues from their colonial past and Australia in no different. There are problems but it is not necessarily the fault of the court system. The great majority of Australians treat Aboriginals the same way as they would treat any other person, with politeness and respect.
> And, yes you are missing the big picture. It was the Aboriginal people who were upset by insensitive use of their culture, not the non indigenous.
> Well done with your comments. You've managed to upset Aboriginals and non-aboriginals alike.


 
Go back and reread what I wrote. I never _said_ that it was the non indigignous peoples who were upset. I thought that by now everyone reading this thread understands very clearly that it was a group of Aboriginies that were protesting. And I mentioned all the problems they`ve faced in the past and at the present when making a point: namely that with all the genuine abuse that has been heaped on them at home the thing they`re choosing to focus on is a dance performance on another continent. 

I`m well aware that the vast majority of younger Aussies don`t share the predjudices that were part of the everyday life in Australia even fifty years ago. The vast majority of the Australians I meet here each year are great people. So are most of the Americans. And yes we both share a long ugly history of treating our indiginous people like dirt. If being reminded of that struck such a nerve that you missed the whole point of the post I don`t know what to say other than take a deep breath and read it again.


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## K-man (Jan 28, 2010)

David43515 said:


> Australia has treated it`s Aboriginal peoples like dirt for a long long time. They tried to wipe them out physically, culturally, and they still run roughshod over them in the courts etc. With all those big problems to fix down under, does a 5 minute skate routine done in the middle of Europe really carry that much weight?


This was a thread about a skating routine that upset some of of indigenous folk. You didn't mention non indigenous in terms of the skating but cast a slur on the non indigenous population and the Australian legal system.


> Go back and reread what I wrote. I never said that it was the non indigignous peoples who were upset. I thought that by now everyone reading this thread understands very clearly that it was a group of Aboriginies that were protesting. And I mentioned all the problems they`ve faced in the past and at the present when making a point: namely that with all the genuine abuse that has been heaped on them at home the thing they`re choosing to focus on is a dance performance on another continent.


You 'mentioned' the problems of the past and linked them to the present then you slurred the older Australians by saying it is the younger Australians don't have the prejudice.  Well, I am older and I remember the bad times. I was part of the referendum that brought the treatment of Aboriginal people into the 20th century.  I love our aboriginal people and respect enormously their 40 thousand year history on this continent and their culture.


> And yes we both share a long ugly history of treating our indiginous people like dirt.


 That was the past. Maybe now we are in the process of rectifying some of our sins of previous generations but I will not stand by and take your slanderous statements about contemporary Australia without comment.


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## K-man (Jan 28, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I brought this up on another forum and was called "racist", "extremist", and "a typical right wing prat" among other things. I was told that because I`m "white, male, and Mormon" I couldn`t understand how harmful this skating routine was to the sensabilities of the group protesting it.



If you brought this up on another forum and found that it upset people there, why did you re-post on this forum?


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## Tez3 (Jan 28, 2010)

We can't classify insults and discrimination into nice easy groups, 'oh that won't hurt you' and 'wow thats a big insult.'  

If you are a Christian how would you feel to see the Crucifixion performed as a dance designed to entertain and gain points?

If you are an atheist how would you feel if your loved ones deaths, funerals and memories were used in the same way?

The Aborigines use dance to teach, to remember and for spiritual reasons. A little research would have found this out and the Russian couple could have, as has been suggested, contacted them and been given guidence in what to do. I doubt they would have been turned down and would have been shown things which the Aborigines would have been proud to have been associated with.

A little thought, a little respect and a little thought will go a long way towards making life easier and more pleasant for everyone. 

A little self education would go a long way too. 

K-man, you rock!


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## David43515 (Jan 28, 2010)

K-man, take it down a notch. If someone points out that "America has treated Blacks (or Gays, or Indians, or Mormons, or Irish, or Japanese, or Chinese etc) like dirt" I don`t get bent out of shape because I know it`s true. I also don`t assume that they`re insulting all Americans, because I know that not everyone has done those things. 

When I said that most of the younger Australians I`ve met don`t share the same predgudices that were common in the past, it`s not the same thing as saying all older Australians are predjudiced. No matter what I say you seem to read alot more than was intended into it.  If you feel that I`ve insulted you or your country as a whole I apologize and I want to assure you that it was never my intention to do so. Let`s just step back from this and bury the hatchet while everyone is still level-headed enough to be civil.


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## JDenver (Jan 28, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> You will never go through life unscathed, you may be physically assaulted, you will be emotionally distraught many times, you will feel insecure, and yes you will have your feelings hurt many times by things people say or do.
> 
> The thing is look at everything in context, for the most part, people are kind, and do not go out to intentionally hurt your feelings.



True.  But voicing that someone is being ignorant, that they are being colonial, that they are denegrating a cultural form that has particular meaning, is not a bad thing.  It isn't about 'hurt feelings'.  It should be called out.  

Did the skaters seek spiritual insight into the dance?  Did they research the origins and hope to pay homage to the culture?  I don't know, but I'd guess not.  There is some malice in the willful ignorance of it.


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## Omar B (Jan 29, 2010)

I just think it's pretty damn funny that these two pranced around in those costumes, with that choreography and that music.  It takes a lot of commitment to go out of your way to look like that much of a dolt.  But then, I always found figure skateing hilarious.

It's a shame that the "theme" they attempted to play upon and ended up butchering was not some fairy fantasy but actual people who would get offended (and rightly so) at two weirdos in tights.

It's a great time for the Aborigines to educate the world on who they are as a people now that these Blades Of Glory rejects have brought some attention to them.


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## pgsmith (Jan 29, 2010)

Whining gets nothing but eye rolls from the vast majority of people. I clearly remember a number of years back when several American Indian "leaders" declared that they were "offended" by the use of "Redskins" and "Braves" for ball team names. It made the newspapers and many people, just like those of us here, argued endlessly back and forth about it. Meanwhile, all of the *real* native Americans that I knew thought the whole debate was stupid, and reflected badly on them *because* it was stupid. It was simply something brought to the newspapers attention to garner these particular leaders some publicity.

It's entirely possible that the same thing is occuring here. Have any of you bothered to talk to any native Australians to find out what they _really_ think, or are you just going to blindly condemn those of us who aren't as "politically sensitive" as you feel we should be? I think that there are a ton of better "causes" to put your emotional two cents behind than this one.


> pgsmith you really need to read up on Australian history before making such a crass comments.


Nope, I don't need to at all. Australian history does not interest me, and knowing it intimately would not change how I feel about the issue. You see, I've been there-done that on both the native American and Mexican sides of my heritage. I thought it was stupid then, and still think it is to this day. Doesn't mean you have to agree with me, but it also doesn't mean that you can force me into thinking that it makes sense, which it doesn't.


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## Tez3 (Jan 30, 2010)

pgsmith said:


> Whining gets nothing but eye rolls from the vast majority of people. I clearly remember a number of years back when several American Indian "leaders" declared that they were "offended" by the use of "Redskins" and "Braves" for ball team names. It made the newspapers and many people, just like those of us here, argued endlessly back and forth about it. Meanwhile, all of the *real* native Americans that I knew thought the whole debate was stupid, and reflected badly on them *because* it was stupid. It was simply something brought to the newspapers attention to garner these particular leaders some publicity.
> 
> It's entirely possible that the same thing is occuring here. Have any of you bothered to talk to any native Australians to find out what they _really_ think, or are you just going to blindly condemn those of us who aren't as "politically sensitive" as you feel we should be? I think that there are a ton of better "causes" to put your emotional two cents behind than this one.
> 
> Nope, I don't need to at all. Australian history does not interest me, and knowing it intimately would not change how I feel about the issue. You see, I've been there-done that on both the native American and Mexican sides of my heritage. I thought it was stupid then, and still think it is to this day. Doesn't mean you have to agree with me, but it also doesn't mean that you can force me into thinking that it makes sense, which it doesn't.


 

Well, I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

I shall leave you to carry on talking out of your ****. It's actually quite amusing, a sort of lesson in ignorant arrogance and airy superiority banded about by those who fancy themselves as worldly wise but are actually blind to the obvious. Oh and you've missed the point of what we were saying _totally_ roflmao especially what the Australian posters were saying.


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## pgsmith (Feb 1, 2010)

> I shall leave you to carry on talking out of your ****. It's actually quite amusing, a sort of lesson in ignorant arrogance and airy superiority banded about by those who fancy themselves as worldly wise but are actually blind to the obvious.


My, my ... aren't you smug in your arrogant superiority. Surprisingly enough, you'll eventually figure out that many people have opposing viewpoints to yours on many different subjects. Disagreeing with your narrow minded, "oh so politically correct" viewpoint makes me neither arrogant, nor superior, nor does it mean that I am "talking out of my ****" as you so eloquently put it. It simply means that I don't agree with your viewpoint, and I attempted to explain to you why. However, you are obviously of either too closed of a mind, or too low of intelligence, to even be able to *admit* that your views may not be the be all, end all of intelligent thought. So be it. I do not post on fora such as this one to change anyone's views of life, simply to share my opinions. I did so, you don't have to like them. In fact, judging from how you've "expressed yourself" here, I would be quite relieved not to have any opinions in common.


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## Tez3 (Feb 1, 2010)

pgsmith said:


> My, my ... aren't you smug in your arrogant superiority. Surprisingly enough, you'll eventually figure out that many people have opposing viewpoints to yours on many different subjects. Disagreeing with your narrow minded, "oh so politically correct" viewpoint makes me neither arrogant, nor superior, nor does it mean that I am "talking out of my ****" as you so eloquently put it. It simply means that I don't agree with your viewpoint, and I attempted to explain to you why. However, you are obviously of either too closed of a mind, or too low of intelligence, to even be able to *admit* that your views may not be the be all, end all of intelligent thought. So be it. I do not post on fora such as this one to change anyone's views of life, simply to share my opinions. I did so, you don't have to like them. In fact, judging from how you've "expressed yourself" here, I would be quite relieved not to have any opinions in common.


 

:lfao:


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## pgsmith (Feb 2, 2010)

> :lfao:


  Another statement made with the outstanding eloquence that I've come to expect. Your grasp of the English language and your advanced debating techniques are truly astounding! I'll have to cede the point to you as your faultless logic has shredded all of my attempted counterpoints.


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## Tez3 (Feb 2, 2010)

pgsmith said:


> Another statement made with the outstanding eloquence that I've come to expect. Your grasp of the English language and your advanced debating techniques are truly astounding! I'll have to cede the point to you as your faultless logic has shredded all of my attempted counterpoints.


 

 I knew you'd appreciate me in the end, everyone does.:angel:


especially my old shift partner who returned to Oz the other week to give his daughter away in marriage to her Aussie fiance........ a very nice Aboriginal chap she met a couple of years ago.


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2010)

To anon, did you mean I was a **** because I don't know what a snit is. Being a buffoon isn't a bad thing you know, at least I amuse people lol!


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## Carol (Feb 21, 2010)

I just saw the ice dance performed at the Olympics I thought it was disgusting. 

The audience in Vancouver wasn't that thrilled with it either, although the judges gave it good marks....so far.

I guess marginalizing a minority is OK, especially if it is in pursuit of a gold medal. After all, there aren't enough of those aboringinies to put up that much of a fight, right? I mean....lets see now....being one of the aboriginies vs. being an olympic medalist......which is more important?  

[/heavy sarcasm]


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