# Overtraining



## rabbit (Nov 17, 2006)

When you do weightlifting and you are working out biceps/triceps and you overtraining does that overtrain your whole body or just the biceps/triceps? I was wondering this because it would make sense that if you only worked out your arms and did a high volume/high intensity workout that it would hinder leg gains(mass) when you did a leg workout the next day. Any help is appreicated.


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## exile (Nov 17, 2006)

rabbit said:


> When you do weightlifting and you are working out biceps/triceps and you overtraining does that overtrain your whole body or just the biceps/triceps? I was wondering this because it would make sense that if you only worked out your arms and did a high volume/high intensity workout that it would hinder leg gains(mass) when you did a leg workout the next day. Any help is appreicated.



Rabbit---overtraining is a whole-body, systemic condition. Basically, overtraining refers to a excessively frequent training, which results in your body being in a state of perpetual, but never completed, recovery. Muscle growth occurs when you've stressed your muscles, they recover form the trauma of the exercise, and the body triggers more muscle tissue synthesis because it's become clear over time that it is consistently encountering major stressors and requires an anabolic response to protect itself from those stressors, i.e., more muscle. But before you can get new muscle, the old traumatized muscle must be repaired. If you exercise too frequently, you never get the body `out of the shop'; you keep adding to its stress debt and not onlydo you never _get_ to the point of adding new muscle, but you wind up plateauing, or even getting sick, losing you desire to train, have trouble sleeping etc. Overtrainin is _not_ something that happens from a single intense workout, no matter how intense. A week or two of nonstop high intensity training could do it, but not a single day's worth.

And if you're just training biceps and triceps, it's unlikely you'll overtrain that easily. It's the really big compound exercises that, repeated too frequently, lead to overtaining.

What makes you think you were overtaining arms?


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## rabbit (Nov 17, 2006)

exile said:


> What makes you think you were overtaining arms?


 
Well...I was doing as many reps as I could then that would end my set. Then when I recovered in anywhere from 20-40 sec I would do another set. I would keep doing sets until 20 mins passed. This is the order of exercise: right bicep, right tricep - left bicep, left tricep - Shoulders, Forearms- It would take me 2 hours or more to complete. I did this everyday for a month and then stopped. now I am back to a more normal routine. But I wonder how much time the muscles actually need to recover.


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## searcher (Nov 17, 2006)

Holy crap.   You are going to hurt yourself.   Only you can tell if you have been overtraining, since every person is different.   You would normally need 24-72 hours between workout to recover.

BTW-if you are overtraining one areaof your body you are overtraining the whole thing and you may not even think you are.   Most people who overtrain really set themselves back.   Remember that muscle is not built when you are working out, but is when you are recovering.


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## exile (Nov 18, 2006)

rabbit said:


> Well...I was doing as many reps as I could then that would end my set. Then when I recovered in anywhere from 20-40 sec I would do another set. I would keep doing sets until 20 mins passed. This is the order of exercise: right bicep, right tricep - left bicep, left tricep - Shoulders, Forearms- It would take me 2 hours or more to complete. I did this everyday for a month and then stopped. now I am back to a more normal routine. But I wonder how much time the muscles actually need to recover.



Wow, I agree with searcher---look, volume is not the answer. Multiple sets to failure with massive numbers of reps will not build muscle---we now know enough about the physiology of muscle growth and its relation to resistance training to realize this. Let me make a suggestion: decrease your reps, but greatly _increase_ your weights. The way to do this for biceps and triceps that I would recommend is this:

*Biceps:* the best biceps exercise I know is one where you use your own body weight, plus anything you want to add on via a weight belt 'round your waist, and a chinning bar. At your gym, get a box, or wheel a bench over to a chinning bar, stand on the bar, pull yourself up into a position so that your fists are gripping the bar _palm-inward_---that's critical!---and     as close to your shoulders as possible. Now let yourself down about three inches and pull yourself up again. You are operating in your strongest range, and using your own bodyweight as the resistance. Do that as many times as you can---never get out of your strongest leverage range!---and when you've done that to failure, stop, rest briefly, then do _one more set_, trying to equal your first one (you won't be able to, probably, but aim for it), stop again. You're done. Keep track of how many reps you did. Next time you go to the gym for this---say a week to 10 days later---do the same, but chain a ten-lb. dumbell around your waist---same story. When you can do the same number of reps over two sets, add 5-10 more lbs. and so on. The two sets together will probably take you no more than 5-7 minutes at most, with the necessary rest im between. Don't go up in weight till you can do as many reps in as short a time as you were able to do at your previous lower weight. When you hit the point where you can, it's time to add a little more weight. And so on.

*Triceps* Same as with biceps, but you don't use a chinning bar, you use a dipping stand. Otherwise, same story: put a box at the front of the stand, climb up, facing out, with your arms slightly back of your waist. Start with your own body weight, and only lower yourself down a few inches, then back up. Two sets, just as with biceps, always to (uncomfortable or painful) failure---sorry, but you don't get something for nothing! Next time, add ten lbs., and when your numbers on weight and time are the same as when it was just your own body weight, go up another 5-10 lbs. A week to ten days between workouts---your body needs this time to recover! Otherwise, you'll never get back to square one, which is where the muscle growth occurs.

By keeping in your strongest range, with short reps, you are hoisting much higher weights than full range reps taking into your weakest leverage zone would allow. And the heavier the weights you hoist, the more neurmuscular motor units fire, and the more overwhelming the signal from the body to your metabolism: _build more muscle!!!_ The body resists building muscle---you have to override its tendency not to by making that the lesser of two evils (the greater of the two being, of course, the pain and discomfort you induce by going to failure on these lifts). 

You will make way faster progress using this kind of exercise (a sort of generic version of the kind of high intensity training regime advocated by Mike Mentzer, Peter Cisco & John Little, and enlightened trainers everywhere  ) And, taking into account what searcher was warning you about, you will not get sick, and you _will_ make tangible progress over the next several months. 

Give it a shot and let us know how it goes, eh?


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## rabbit (Nov 18, 2006)

exile said:


> Wow, I agree with searcher---look, volume is not the answer. Multiple sets to failure with massive numbers of reps will not build muscle---we now know enough about the physiology of muscle growth and its relation to resistance training to realize this. Let me make a suggestion: decrease your reps, but greatly _increase_ your weights.........................
> 
> You will make way faster progress using this kind of exercise (a sort of generic version of the kind of high intensity training regime advocated by Mike Mentzer, Peter Cisco & John Little, and enlightened trainers everywhere  ) And, taking into account what searcher was warning you about, you will not get sick, and you _will_ make tangible progress over the next several months.
> 
> Give it a shot and let us know how it goes, eh?


 
Is there anything else I can do? I have all day to train. Can I add Yoga, Stretching, Running, and some other things I can do at home? Now more than ever I feel I need to monitor my response to training. I want to pay more attention to how I feel before, during, and after exercise. I want to make it a learning experience....


(edit: I can't do the exercise you prescribed to me becuase I don't go to a gym.)


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## exile (Nov 18, 2006)

rabbit said:


> Is there anything else I can do? I have all day to train. Can I add Yoga, Stretching, Running, and some other things I can do at home? Now more than ever I feel I need to monitor my response to training. I want to pay more attention to how I feel before, during, and after exercise. I want to make it a learning experience....



Yoga and stretching will definitely be to your advantage, but you have to remember what they're for---muscle elasticity, range, maybe breathing control. Running is mostly for cardio (and again, you don't want to overtrain. Shorter training sessions at greater intensity---via intervals (alternate long periods of moderate jogging with much shorter intervals of all-out sprinting)---as vs. longer periods of moderate- or low-paced jogging.



> (edit: I can't do the exercise you prescribed to me becuase I don't go to a gym.)



OK... first of all, is there someone around your house who can help you with your training? If so, I can think of a way you could use dumbells to achieve the same kind of `strongest range' training. *Let me know.* The thing is, you want to use a heavier weight than you could normally haul into position through a complete range of motion... there _is_ a way you can do that if you have the cooperation of a training partner (or someone whoi isn't necessarily training but is reasonably strong themselves).


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## searcher (Nov 18, 2006)

What are you trying to accomplish?   It would help, at least me, figure out what you need to do.


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## rabbit (Nov 18, 2006)

searcher said:


> What are you trying to accomplish? It would help, at least me, figure out what you need to do.


 
High Kicks (Done Correctly), Acrobatic Jump Kicks like The Wushu Butterfly and Tae Kwon Do Butterfly kick.


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## searcher (Nov 18, 2006)

rabbit said:


> High Kicks (Done Correctly), Acrobatic Jump Kicks like The Wushu Butterfly and Tae Kwon Do Butterfly kick.


 

For high kicks you need dynamic flexibility.   This can be gained by performing leg raises to the front, side, and back.   This mixed with slow, multiple level kicking drills will help with that.

On the aerial kicking, you will need some explosion and good technique.   To get the explosion you should try adding in some plyometrics and if you can, some Olympic lifts.   The technique comes with practice, practice, and some more practice.   To gain the explosion you are going to need to get plenty of rest to let your body recover.   Plyos are hard on the body.


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