# branching off,  long guns for self defense,  when pray for more firepower.



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

So now, long guns, in your home, in your office,  in your truck  ( if legal ).   In my bedroom each night, you will find a 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with #4 lead buckshot.   I live in an 80'x14' mobile home. All the bedrooms are in a row. If I  had to shoot someone , I would aim low  (knee area) to keep stray fire away from my little girl.  I like my old pump and don't often miss with it. There is a mega-church in my area which asks custodians/ushers/decons/ pastors to carry pistols. Also, they have long guns ,at least 12 gauge shotguns, in locked custodians  closets around the building.  In such a large building with such open spaces,  they see a potential need for heavy firepower instead of just small caliber handguns.   Would you, could you, do you agree? Is a pistol enough,  is a long gun too much?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> So now, long guns, in your home, in your office,  in your truck  ( if legal ).   In my bedroom each night, you will find a 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with #4 lead buckshot.   I live in an 80'x14' mobile home. All the bedrooms are in a row. If I  had to shoot someone , I would aim low  (knee area) to keep stray fire away from my little girl.  I like my old pump and don't often miss with it. There is a mega-church in my area which asks custodians/ushers/decons/ pastors to carry pistols. Also, they have long guns ,at least 12 gauge shotguns, in locked custodians  closets around the building.  In such a large building with such open spaces,  they see a potential need for heavy firepower instead of just small caliber handguns.   Would you, could you, do you agree? Is a pistol enough,  is a long gun too much?


The shotguns in the big open area seem less productive than a good pistol. I can take aim and hit a target with effect at a longer range with a handgun than with a scattergun, with less chance of hitting bystanders.

At home, we have no kids, so I don't have the same method of avoiding hitting innocents with the 12-gauge pump in my bedroom. The animals are all low (no place for the cats to be up high except behind me), so I'd aim to the upper body.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The shotguns in the big open area seem less productive than a good pistol. I can take aim and hit a target with effect at a longer range with a handgun than with a scattergun, with less chance of hitting bystanders.
> 
> At home, we have no kids, so I don't have the same method of avoiding hitting innocents with the 12-gauge pump in my bedroom. The animals are all low (no place for the cats to be up high except behind me), so I'd aim to the upper body.


I do imagine they have more than just shotguns,  given their stance on emergency preparedness,  but I cannot confirm.   now in anything mid range  under 60yds with good buckshot, that's a heck of alot of firepower.  And slugs, I just love 1 oz slugs. I knocked down a deer at 97 yds with a smooth bore and rifled slug, no sights.  dropped several dead as a doornail with 00 buck between 40 and 70yds


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2017)

Indoors where you know your background is clear, not much beats a scattergun.

The advantages of a shotgun are a wider pattern and less need for precise aiming in a usually dark, usually stressful, situation.

The disadvantages are the same as the advantages - a wider pattern means if the environment is crowded with people you don't want to shoot, they may be hit anyway.

A shotgun with shot pellets also gives the advantage of less chance of overpenetration, which in a mobile home I would think might be a very valid concern.  There have been several recent stories about police firing their duty weapons at someone and having the bullet penetrate a wall in an apartment building and kill an innocent citizen; it happens.

In short, shotguns are ideal for home defense when there is nothing in front of you except people whom you wish to shoot, you're in a confined area, and conditions are less than ideal for precise aiming.

It still does not relieve you from your responsibility to know whom you are poking yon boomstick at.  Darkness, confined spaces, and fear, are not enough.  You must still identify your target.  Too many family members killed by their kin thinking they were burglars.


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Nothing is more devastating than a 12 gauge slug....it is a show stopper.

I keep my shotgun loaded with a slug first and then buckshot following it.

AR-15 are great platforms too.

Typically, you do not want to take on a rifle without a rifle or shotgun.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2017)

Very unsporting to shoot a man with a shotgun, not cricket, that's what rifles are for, shotguns are for game.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2017)

We take shotguns and shooting very seriously. yes I've been on shoots like this, yes we have shotguns lol but not Purdeys though my OH would kill for a pair, literally he would.
Shooting Etiquette | Purdey & Sons

If you wish to drool have a look through this. https://www.purdey.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Gun-Brochure.pdf


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> We take shotguns and shooting very seriously. yes I've been on shoots like this, yes we have shotguns lol but not Purdeys though my OH would kill for a pair, literally he would.
> Shooting Etiquette | Purdey & Sons
> 
> If you wish to drool have a look through this. https://www.purdey.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Gun-Brochure.pdf



Those are a little bit nicer than my Remington 870.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Those are a little bit nicer than my Remington 870.



Sigh, I know, we want to win the lottery so can afford a hand made matched pair of Purdey's, hundreds of thousands of pounds though.


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sigh, I know, we want to win the lottery so can afford a hand made matched pair of Purdey's, hundreds of thousands of pounds though.



I'll put that on the list for yall when I win it


----------



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

Ithaca mag 10 gauge road blocker, now that's what I want!


----------



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Nothing is more devastating than a 12 gauge slug....it is a show stopper.
> 
> I keep my shotgun loaded with a slug first and then buckshot following it.
> 
> ...


Typically,  you don't want to take on a rifle.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

Here's one with buckshot, to terminate a threat, aim upper mass not center.  Try and center your pattern around the base of the neck.  Full pattern at mid range is head neck and upper chest. Just like turkey hunting, or how I shoot deer, aim at the neck. One pellet in the brain or spine works pretty quick.


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Ithaca mag 10 gauge road blocker, now that's what I want!



Why? Collector?


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Here's one with buckshot, to terminate a threat, aim upper mass not center.  Try and center your pattern around the base of the neck.  Full pattern at mid range is head neck and upper chest. Just like turkey hunting, or how I shoot deer, aim at the neck. One pellet in the brain or spine works pretty quick.



No.  Good buckshot in a full choke can put all the pellets in the target at 25 yards when pointed at bottom of sternum.

Aim at neck you have a lot of pellets missing your target.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I do imagine they have more than just shotguns,  given their stance on emergency preparedness,  but I cannot confirm.   now in anything mid range  under 60yds with good buckshot, that's a heck of alot of firepower.  And slugs, I just love 1 oz slugs. I knocked down a deer at 97 yds with a smooth bore and rifled slug, no sights.  dropped several dead as a doornail with 00 buck between 40 and 70yds


Okay, you have a point there - I'd expect a proper choke gives that distance (something I've never used a scattergun enough to be well informed on). And with slugs, you do get better control over who else is in danger.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Typically,  you don't want to take on a rifle.


Agreed. Ideally, I'd prefer not to take on anything that goes bang.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Aug 11, 2017)

I don't like to think of going to church with a firearm.  But the times they are a-changing.  And many of our forefathers didn't think twice about carrying a gun to church, or anywhere else outside their home.

Of course it depends on where you are and what the threat is.  I would feel very comfortable with a .243 lever action given just a few feet distance.  I can hit what I see.  A shot in the chest or head as needed, is quite doable out to much longer distances; put them down before they get close to you.  Close up, a pistol of some sort may be a preferable weapon.  It is more maneuverable for sure.  Given a good shot, that might make an important difference if you have more than one attacker and closer up.

I just don't think there is a one-size-fits-all.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> No.  Good buckshot in a full choke can put all the pellets in the target when aimed at bottom of sternum.
> 
> Aim at neck you have a lot of pellets missing your target.


Three things,  One is low penetration. Buckshot is spherical pellets which are mot best for deep penetration. After 30 yards, 00 buck starts giving up it's penetration.  I always use full to extra full choke with buckshot.On a deer, at 30 yards I get every pellet through the body unless one hits the spine or shoulder.  At 40 yds, I see randomly 2 or three pellets just shy of full penetration. literally stopped by the skin on the other side. At 50yds, half don't go through.  At 60, none do and I find them all in the body cavity. In the 50-60 yards and beyond, the only way to get a good shock into the animal so as to avoid tracking them half a mile or more is to impact the lethal areas of the neck and the spine.   Now the second is pattern spread.   With most 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buckshot loads going on average 1,300 fps, spread is around 35" at 50 yards. Makes for less shock to one general area.  Last is armour.  Buckshot won't puncture armour exept mabey at waltzing distance.  Sure, up to thirty yards the mere shock of the pellets could be debilitating, at further distances you'r plumb out of luck.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't like to think of going to church with a firearm.  But the times they are a-changing.  And many of our forefathers didn't think twice about carrying a gun to church, or anywhere else outside their home.
> 
> Of course it depends on where you are and what the threat is.  I would feel very comfortable with a .243 lever action given just a few feet distance.  I can hit what I see.  A shot in the chest or head as needed, is quite doable out to much longer distances; put them down before they get close to you.  Close up, a pistol of some sort may be a preferable weapon.  It is more maneuverable for sure.  Given a good shot, that might make an important difference if you have more than one attacker and closer up.
> 
> I just don't think there is a one-size-fits-all.


Particularly in mega churches,  there is a concern of the extremists suicide terrorist. No better place for a deranged person to kill a bunch of infidels.  The department  of Homeland Security is surprised it hasn't happened yet.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, you have a point there - I'd expect a proper choke gives that distance (something I've never used a scattergun enough to be well informed on). And with slugs, you do get better control over who else is in danger.


I primarily use a shotgun for deer, ducks, geese, turkey,  pheasant,  rabbits, squirrels, milk jugs,  shaving cream cans (oh so fun), clay pigeons,  and recently cookies. I love my shotguns much more than my .22's .308,  54R's, and pistols.   But probably like my flintlock and caplocks more.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Particularly in mega churches,  there is a concern of the extremists suicide terrorist. No better place for a deranged person to kill a bunch of infidels.  The department  of Homeland Security is surprised it hasn't happened yet.



I imagine they are rightly sitting waiting for one of the congregation to do that for them.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I primarily use a shotgun for deer, ducks, geese, turkey,  pheasant,  rabbits, squirrels, milk jugs,  shaving cream cans (oh so fun), clay pigeons,  and recently cookies. I love my shotguns much more than my .22's .308,  54R's, and pistols.   But probably like my flintlock and caplocks more.



We shoot haggis here, hard little buggers to shoot but tasty. Most people trap them but I think that's cruel. Secrets of the haggis hunt finally revealed on film - Macbeth's Butchers


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> We shoot haggis here, hard little buggers to shoot but tasty. Most people trap them but I think that's cruel. Secrets of the haggis hunt finally revealed on film - Macbeth's Butchers



Like a long haired squirrel.


----------



## Runs With Fire (Aug 11, 2017)

I often take young greenhorns on the legendary "snipe hunt" where we go at night,  beat the bushes with sticks and try and catch them in a paper sack. Conversely,  I hear clapping your hands three times and calling "here snipe" while on hands and knees works well.


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I often take young greenhorns on the legendary "snipe hunt" where we go at night,  beat the bushes with sticks and try and catch them in a paper sack. Conversely,  I hear clapping your hands three times and calling "here snipe" while on hands and knees works well.



My grandfather was a legendary guide for snipe.   Lol

Everyone is familiar with snipehunting now.....but haggis could work....exotic.  Lol.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2017)

The only thing with snipe though is that in the UK it's a genuine bird. We don't get the American joke about them.
Snipe


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The only thing with snipe though is that in the UK it's a genuine bird. We don't get the American joke about them.
> Snipe



It's a genuine bird here as well....but city folk aren't too bright and don't realize it.

And you definitely can't catch them in a paper sack with a stick.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 11, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> It's a genuine bird here as well....but city folk aren't too bright and don't realize it.
> 
> And you definitely can't catch them in a paper sack with a stick.




ah! The British though have a passion for nature programmes, we watch so many of them we can all name birds and animals. Sir David Attenborough is a national hero.


----------



## lklawson (Aug 17, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> So now, long guns, in your home, in your office,  in your truck  ( if legal ).   In my bedroom each night, you will find a 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with #4 lead buckshot.   I live in an 80'x14' mobile home. All the bedrooms are in a row. If I  had to shoot someone , I would aim low  (knee area) to keep stray fire away from my little girl.  I like my old pump and don't often miss with it. There is a mega-church in my area which asks custodians/ushers/decons/ pastors to carry pistols. Also, they have long guns ,at least 12 gauge shotguns, in locked custodians  closets around the building.  In such a large building with such open spaces,  they see a potential need for heavy firepower instead of just small caliber handguns.   Would you, could you, do you agree? Is a pistol enough,  is a long gun too much?


Long arms have a lot of advantages over handguns as far as "combat effectiveness" goes.  It's pretty much indisputable.  Besides the noted possibility of over-penetration, the biggest downside to a long arm is that it doesn't conceal as easily.  So if concealment isn't a problem and you aren't worried about over-penetration (or you can mitigate it), then, sure it's usually a superior option.  I don't really see how this could be controversial.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. Ideally, I'd prefer not to take on anything that goes bang.


@lklawson - did you mis-click in rating this one? Or was there something there you actually didn't like?


----------



## lklawson (Aug 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> @lklawson - did you mis-click in rating this one? Or was there something there you actually didn't like?


OK, whippersnapper.  The "agree" button is RIGHT BESIDE the "dislike."

Musta been my bi-focals...

<grump grump>


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 17, 2017)

lklawson said:


> OK, whippersnapper.  The "agree" button is RIGHT BESIDE the "dislike."
> 
> Musta been my bi-focals...
> 
> <grump grump>


I'm putting you in "rating time out" with @Mark Lynn.


----------

