# What do you guys make of this video of



## Coker101 (Jan 12, 2014)

Not knowing much about Aikido this is new to me.  This video does look a bit strange...can someone fill me in please?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 12, 2014)

When you go to communist China and try to spread the idea of "freedom of speech", the government will hate you but people may like you. If you go to communist China and say, "Long live the communist party." Both the Chinese government and people may like you but you will hate yourself.

When you comment on Aikido clip like this, some Aikido guys will hate you. If you say that you like this clip then all Aikido guys will love you but you will hate yourself.


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## K-man (Jan 12, 2014)

Seeing I have answered your other questions, I will say what I think. I have seen similar video of other people doing similar things to their students that they couldn't do to outsiders. I'm not sure what a psychologist would call the phenomenon but if I came across it I would be exceptionally sceptical. I'm one of the 'Doubting Thomas' variety. I need to feel it for myself.

Having said that, Ueshiba was a great martial artist and he did understand the use of Ki. The training we do with Ki is hands on but I still refer to it as _weird science_ because I don't understand how it works or even why it works. Aikido is an internal martial art, like many of the CMAs. That Ki exists and can be trained there is no doubt in my mind but it is not 'magical'. 

If you want to check it out, there have been several threads on Ki a few years back. They tend to get very parochial so I have no desire to go down that path again. 
:asian:


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## Coker101 (Jan 12, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you go to communist China and try to spread the idea of "freedom of speech", the government will hate you but people may like you. If you go to communist China and say, "Long live the communist party." Both the Chinese government and people may like you but you will hate yourself.
> 
> When you comment on Aikido clip like this, some Aikido guys will hate you. If you say that you like this clip then all Aikido guys will love you but you will hate yourself.



I feel far to bad today to try to figure out what you're saying.   For fear of my head exploding I'll let you say it in a form other than a parable.  I think I know what you're saying but if you want to put that in simple terms it would be appreciated. 

Not knowing what he's teaching or the circumstance he teaching in it would be hard to say.   It does look like he's later in years so physical activity my be trying to be avoided?  Maybe?

However if he's suggesting that his ki is capable of knocking people down w/o touch...I don't know about that.  I don't want to be disrespectful but that would be....hard to believe.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 12, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> if you want to put that in simple terms it would be appreciated.


Fake.


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## Coker101 (Jan 12, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Fake.



lol...well that was simple enough.


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## Coker101 (Jan 12, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Fake.



One thing, it would seem strange to me that Ueshiba would purposely create a false video or something he knew wasn't true like knocking down opponents without touching them.  Especially considering he spent his who life training and had so few years left....I don't know.  Not that I think it's possible, but I'm wondering if there is more than meets the eye here.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 12, 2014)

Coker101 said:


> One thing, it would seem strange to me that Ueshiba would purposely create a false video or something he knew wasn't true like knocking down opponents without touching them.  Especially considering he spent his who life training and had so few years left....I don't know.  Not that I think it's possible, but I'm wondering if there is more than meets the eye here.


When the longfist grand master Han Chin-Tang demonstrated by using samurai sword to cut his face in Taiwan, my teacher commented on him, "Your face skin must be very thick." In Chinese language, thick face skin also means "no shame".

I truly don't know why people wanted to leave a clip like that to ruin his own reputation.


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## Coker101 (Jan 12, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When the longfist grand master Han Chin-Tang demonstrated by using samurai sword to cut his face in Taiwan, my teacher commented on him, "Your face skin must be very thick." In Chinese language, thick face skin also means "no shame".
> 
> I truly don't know why people wanted to leave a clip like that to ruin his own reputation.



Being new to Aikido I have to say it would be....concerning if this were an attempt to show the power of ki.  But at the same time without being there or knowing what the lesson was we don't know exactly what he's doing.  I hope he's not claiming to have the power to move people w/o touch....that would be concerning considering I'm planning on putting years into his system.  

I can't imagine that non of his students would question this if that's indeed what he was claiming.  These guys are not stupid (I don't think anyway) and most trained in other MAs as well.  Would seem to me they would move on to something else if they something like that.


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## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2014)

Personally, it's hard to assess that video.  There vantage point is poor at best for a lot of it.  There's no explanation or story behind it.  We don't know what he was showing.  Some of it is, from what I can tell, displaying masterful use of positioning and the uke's reaction to his movement to force the uke to break his own balance.  Some of it... I just don't know.

At a guess...  This was a private recording that's gotten out, either without or having been separated from the explanation and expository parts.  Don't know...


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 12, 2014)

Are you sure that is even Ueshiba, it could just be someone who looks, or is made to, look like him? It is only 19 seconds of grainy, blurry video.


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## Coker101 (Jan 12, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Are you sure that is even Ueshiba, it could just be someone who looks, or is made to, look like him? It is only 19 seconds of grainy, blurry video.



True.


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## K-man (Jan 12, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Are you sure that is even Ueshiba, it could just be someone who looks, or is made to, look like him? It is only 19 seconds of grainy, blurry video.


I'd be 99.99% sure it is Ueshiba. What he was demonstrating is anyone's guess. The other point to remember is that he had his receivers, people he had trained with for years. In most cases they are receiving, not resisting. Other times you can see them resisting as in the kneeling techniques. Don't write too much into it.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PDC23K54XHk&desktop_uri=/watch?v=PDC23K54XHk

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBN0b4qcyY
:asian:


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 9, 2014)

It's kokyu nage. Or rather, it's the higher concept of it anyway.






The more advanced kokyu nage becomes the less contact you are supposed to have with your opponent. It's difficult to judge the line wih a realistic example of this technique vs the no touch knockdown nonsense. Ideally the application of the principles of this technique have you invade the space of the opponent so well that they do not want to encroach on it. However, the need the space you are inhabiting to maintain their balance, so they twist themselves off balance to avoid running into something that will injure them. They fall down because they are connected to what is going on. It's rather difficult to explain how it works, and I don't find it particularly reliable. But the concept of the principle makes sense, it's just rather difficult to judge whether you are actually applying it correctly or if your partner is just being nice and going along with it.


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## K-man (Feb 9, 2014)

Himura Kenshin said:


> It's kokyu nage. Or rather, it's the higher concept of it anyway.
> 
> The more advanced kokyu nage becomes the less contact you are supposed to have with your opponent. It's difficult to judge the line wih a realistic example of this technique vs the no touch knockdown nonsense. Ideally the application of the principles of this technique have you invade the space of the opponent so well that they do not want to encroach on it. However, the need the space you are inhabiting to maintain their balance, so they twist themselves off balance to avoid running into something that will injure them. They fall down because they are connected to what is going on. It's rather difficult to explain how it works, and I don't find it particularly reliable. But the concept of the principle makes sense, it's just rather difficult to judge whether you are actually applying it correctly or if your partner is just being nice and going along with it.


You are right and in the OP clip I suspect the partners were possibly just 'being nice'. 

More kokyu nage         http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrSgu-TuNUI&desktop_uri=/watch?v=WrSgu-TuNUI

The only comment I would make is that kokyu nage is technically a number of techniques under the heading 'breath throws'. They are really take downs and not throws. Performed properly you fall and cannot roll. I would say that if you see Uke roll out of the 'throw', it is a gimme. If he falls in a heap, that is likely to be 'real'.

In the OP they fall, not roll, so who knows?
:asian:


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 9, 2014)

I agree that successful kokyu nage would likely have someone end up in a heap if no contact is actually made. If there is physical contact while expressing the principles of kokyu nage you may actually end up propelling the uke further when they are thrown.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 10, 2014)

There's another thing to consider. A lot of these principles are coming from a sword art and the interpretation of the principle to empty hand might have  changed something that was actually quite practical into something esoteric. For example, I think I might throw myself on the ground to avoid some one sticking a razor sharp sword in my face.


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## K-man (Feb 10, 2014)

Makalakumu said:


> There's another thing to consider. A lot of these principles are coming from a sword art and the interpretation of the principle to empty hand might have  changed something that was actually quite practical into something esoteric. For example, I think I might throw myself on the ground to avoid some one sticking a razor sharp sword in my face.


The principles of sword are not esoteric. We sometimes perform techniques while holding a bokken. Other times I will perform a technique imagining I am holding a sword. Performing the movement as if you are holding a sword provides the correct body structure. It is practical, not esoteric. However, as Uke, I have never felt that I am being attacked with a sword. I often feel attacked by 'intent' but that is totally different.
:asian:


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