# Spontaneous "Volt" combustion...three weeks later...



## billc (Nov 15, 2011)

Here is a possible reason to not buy the Chevy Volt, the possibility of fire, three weeks after a crash...

http://biggovernment.com/smotley/2011/11/15/powering-inferno-chevy-volt-and-gm-going-down-in-flames-literally/



> Oh, and another thing &#8211; it appears





> Volts may be bursting into flames.
> Specifically the plug-in charger for the Volt&#8217;s battery.  There were in April two Volt charcoal briquets.  GM said it wasn&#8217;t responsible.  And Volt proponents argued that we should wait to hear from expertsbefore jumping to conclusions.
> Fair enough.
> Ok &#8211; a third Volt just recently immolated.  During the requested expert testing &#8211; while it was stored in a garage at a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) testing center.
> ...



So, to highlight the last little bit...



> So emergency personnel, arriving upon the scene of accidents involving a Volt, must add to their list of responsibilities &#8211; draining the stupid electric car batteries?
> Yes.
> _The fire&#8217;s cause &#8211; the battery puncture &#8212; led to questions about whether other _*automakers**require batteries to be discharged of their energy following major crashes*_, the NHTSA official said. In addition, _*regulators are exploring protocols for who would do that &#8211; firefighters who respond first, for instance &#8211; and how quickly should they do it.*


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## billc (Nov 15, 2011)

Where is millionaire activist Ralph Nader when you need him?


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## JohnEdward (Nov 15, 2011)

Hell where's the government? Don't they oversee these things? Rick Perry, you missed this one in your speech!


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## granfire (Nov 15, 2011)

JohnEdward said:


> Hell where's the government? Don't they oversee these things? Rick Perry, you missed this one in your speech!



He probably forgot.

But then again, billi has an agenda....he no like GM....among a lot of other things.


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## billc (Nov 16, 2011)

Hmmm...yes, my agenda is the problem, not the cars that violently burst into flames up to three weeks after the battery is punctured by metal.  This of course means that any little fender bender becomes a major concern and anyone owning a Volt now has to worry about increased insurance payments not only on their car but on their homeowners insurance since putting it in a garage after an accident is now a threat to your home.  Yes...I  can see where my agenda is the real problem here.


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## Steve (Nov 16, 2011)

While I'm not a fan of the Volt in particular, this seems like a hatchet job, that the situation was misrepresented, it's not a crisis and that the government agencies did exactly what they should have to keep people as safe as possible.



> The bottom line is this: that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says that "*ased on the available data, N.H.T.S.A. does not believe the Volt or other electric vehicles are at a greater risk of fire than gasoline-powered vehicle"; indeed, had the administration followed procedures to drain the battery of its charge following the crash test, the fire probably wouldn't have happened at all. *


*




			One good thing that is coming from this incident is increased transparency and communication, and further safety measures. It's wonderful that GM has a protocol to drain damaged batteries of their charge--but they hadn't yet trained other people to do so. The company now has plans to train tow truck drivers, body shops, and salvage yards in EV safety, so that events like the one that happened in the NHTSA facility won't befall others.
		
Click to expand...


http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/helloworld/27344/


*


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 16, 2011)

Yes I work for GM. 

The risk for Lithium Batteries is there for all makes and manufacturers.
GM has turned down suppliers that are building product now because they do not meet the crash and puncture testing to not catch on fire. 

REPEAT: GM dropped suppliers that other manufacturers are using that are not up to our safety standards. 

If you read the on hatchet job, it talked about NHTSA saying that there is no more risk with this 5 Star Crash vehicle then any other 5 Star Crash vehicle for catching fire including those with gasolene. 



Now if you do not like GM that is ok. But how come you and those who are against the big corps are after GM that paid back the loans it did not trade for stock, and then when it went public the break even point was just over $23 a share and it sold for mroe than that. Yes on what the Government sold they made a profit. Yet as they have not sold it all only half their investment they still cannot claim a full profit as they are still invested. 

So the question is: Chrysler got money as well. The Fed Gov walks away from all investment into Chrysler. The press barely covered it. No one here posted or talked about it. Hmmmm? 


Also what about the Toyota issues of quality and unsafe vehicles. I do not see the same people who disparage GM also going after them and that they as a company put a price tag on your life. Not only as a customer but as someone on teh street that might get hit from a run away vehicle. They saved lots of money. They looked good, but killed people. Some people went to prison for vehicular homicide. Two I read about were released. 

Toyota also gets loans from Japan. Japan also puts 100% tarriff on all imports to protect domestics(Japanese) manufacturers. They also require by law that all cars older than 5 years be collected and sent overseas. 

If we had those same benefits here, I wonder if there would be any issues with profitablity at all. I would think not. 


So why all the GM Bashing and not the others? I am really curious. Or are you just going to ignore this request and pretend to not see it. Like you have in the past.


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## jks9199 (Nov 16, 2011)

OK, let's think this through for a minute.  You're in a crash.  The battery -- a fairly complex balance of chemistry and engineering with inherent potentials for explosion -- gets punctured, changing the balances in it.  And, some time later, it fails catastrophically.  Not exactly earth shattering.  By the way -- a lead/acid car battery can explode in a number of circumstances, including if it gets damaged in a crash.

I'm not sure where I stand on the Volt over all; I simply haven't looked into it enough because the little I have says that the current electric cars don't fit my needs.  Nor do hybrids.  (By the way, I think if anyone manages to make a hybrid police car, without losing all the trunk space we need, and still able to power the radios and computers -- I think there's a great market.  We burn a lot of gas going nowhere...)  But I think that one day soon, we will all be looking hard at buying electric...


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## Carol (Nov 16, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> (By the way, I think if anyone manages to make a hybrid police car, without losing all the trunk space we need, and still able to power the radios and computers -- I think there's a great market.  We burn a lot of gas going nowhere...)



They have actually!  I've seen cruisers up in the north country I've seen police cars that are Hybrid Ford Escapes.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 16, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> So why all the GM Bashing and not the others? I am really curious. Or are you just going to ignore this request and pretend to not see it. Like you have in the past.



Umm because they took a bail out and should have gone belly up.


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## jks9199 (Nov 16, 2011)

Carol said:


> They have actually!  I've seen cruisers up in the north country I've seen police cars that are Hybrid Ford Escapes.



I'm skeptical of any use of CURRENT hybrids for more than meter maids and detectives, maybe limited patrol use.  Except for a few specialty cars -- the performance isn't there yet, as far as I know (I admit I haven't looked up the details yet).  It's like when municipalities decided to go "green" and forced CNG outfitted cruisers on several departments that I know of.  (Yeah, mine was one.)  But the idea of being able to creep neighborhoods on electric, and not sucking as much exhaust for 12 hours a day...  I kind of like that idea.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 16, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> I'm skeptical of any use of CURRENT hybrids for more than meter maids and detectives, maybe limited patrol use. Except for a few specialty cars -- the performance isn't there yet, as far as I know (I admit I haven't looked up the details yet). It's like when municipalities decided to go "green" and forced CNG outfitted cruisers on several departments that I know of. (Yeah, mine was one.) But the idea of being able to creep neighborhoods on electric, and not sucking as much exhaust for 12 hours a day... I kind of like that idea.


The silence of the battery power would be a great tool to sneak up on people.  I just dont know about the power and speed factor of hybrids.


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## Carol (Nov 16, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> I'm skeptical of any use of CURRENT hybrids for more than meter maids and detectives, maybe limited patrol use.  Except for a few specialty cars -- the performance isn't there yet, as far as I know (I admit I haven't looked up the details yet).  It's like when municipalities decided to go "green" and forced CNG outfitted cruisers on several departments that I know of.  (Yeah, mine was one.)  But the idea of being able to creep neighborhoods on electric, and not sucking as much exhaust for 12 hours a day...  I kind of like that idea.



Well....it performs well enough to climb an unplowed gravel road in winter conditions to, you know, encourage (say) hikers and (say) random photographers and the like to get down from the height-of-land before a quick-moving storm sets in. 

 Or something like that.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 17, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Umm because they took a bail out and should have gone belly up.



Search for my name and Bail out and not getting money and you will see me posting the same thing. 

Yet, I see nothing against Chrysler here. 

Chrysler borrowed money.    GM borrowed money.

Fed Gov Wrote Chrysler off. Walked away from all investments.     GM Paid back loans and sold stock at a profit for the Fed Gov. 

How is this the same and how is a GM only issue? 

I still see a bias.  I still see an issue. 

I am still looking for a real answer. 

Thanks


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 17, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> OK, let's think this through for a minute. You're in a crash. The battery -- a fairly complex balance of chemistry and engineering with inherent potentials for explosion -- gets punctured, changing the balances in it. And, some time later, it fails catastrophically. Not exactly earth shattering. By the way -- a lead/acid car battery can explode in a number of circumstances, including if it gets damaged in a crash.
> 
> I'm not sure where I stand on the Volt over all; I simply haven't looked into it enough because the little I have says that the current electric cars don't fit my needs. Nor do hybrids. (By the way, I think if anyone manages to make a hybrid police car, without losing all the trunk space we need, and still able to power the radios and computers -- I think there's a great market. We burn a lot of gas going nowhere...) But I think that one day soon, we will all be looking hard at buying electric...





jks9199 said:


> I'm skeptical of any use of CURRENT hybrids for more than meter maids and detectives, maybe limited patrol use. Except for a few specialty cars -- the performance isn't there yet, as far as I know (I admit I haven't looked up the details yet). It's like when municipalities decided to go "green" and forced CNG outfitted cruisers on several departments that I know of. (Yeah, mine was one.) But the idea of being able to creep neighborhoods on electric, and not sucking as much exhaust for 12 hours a day... I kind of like that idea.




JKS,

Chevy Tahoe has a Hybrid. 

Performance: 
Best in class fuel economy
I saw a 4x4 (independant - not sure which show it was) test where they put a regular Tahoe and the hybrid barried in the mud and which one worked better. The Electric did better as it was more even torque across the wheels and to the ground. 

I believe Towing is less, but I have not seen a towing police vehicle yet. 

If you are talking an Interceptor, and chasing down high speeds, then yes that is still in the works. The problem is as always, investment versus return. i.e. how many will you actullay sell? 


Thanks


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## ballen0351 (Nov 17, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> Search for my name and Bail out and not getting money and you will see me posting the same thing.
> 
> Yet, I see nothing against Chrysler here.
> 
> ...


I dont disagree with you but you asked why people are picking on GM and thats why.  
Why they are not picking on Chrysler I cant answer that maybe because other then the Jeep line Chrysler sucks or maybe its because GM is way bigger then Chrysler and is the face for the auto bail out.   Maybe its because GM got more money then Chrysler.  Maybe its because some still think GM didnt pay back its loan as they claim. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOaS2SymjQ4&feature=player_embedded#!


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## billc (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, there is this little bit in the news...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/headline_of_the_day_you_wont_see_anywhere_gm_bailout_costs_skyrocket.html



> The Treasury Department dramatically boosted its estimate of losses from its $85 billion auto industry bailout by more than $9 billion in the face of General Motors Co.'s steep stock decline.
> In its monthly report to Congress, the Treasury Department now says it expects to lose $23.6 billion, up from its previous estimate of $14.33 billion.
> The Treasury now pegs the cost of the bailout of GM, Chrysler Group LLC and the [COLOR=#009900 !important]auto finance[/COLOR] companies at $79.6 billion. It no longer includes $5 billion it set aside to guarantee payments to auto suppliers in 2009.
> The big increase is a reflection of the sharp decline in the value of GM's share price.
> ...



Read more: [URL]http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/headline_of_the_day_you_wont_see_anywhere_gm_bailout_costs_skyrocket.html#ixzz1e09FBDGQ[/URL]


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2011)

Rich Parsons said:


> JKS,
> 
> Chevy Tahoe has a Hybrid.
> 
> ...


Some of the areas that I'm not sure of the performance include response driving (not pursuit, since most agencies in my area prohibit pursuits in truck chassis vehicles due to stability concerns), space since I don't know how much space the batteries suck up, and whether they can handle the electrical load without ending up offsetting the fuel savings or killing the batteries.  I absolutely think it's coming.  I just literally don't know that it's there yet -- though Carol's mention of the agency using a Ford Escape suggests that at least some of those areas are OK.  But, it looks like that is literally a couple of agencies using hybrids in a patrol capacity.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 17, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Some of the areas that I'm not sure of the performance include response driving (not pursuit, since most agencies in my area prohibit pursuits in truck chassis vehicles due to stability concerns), space since I don't know how much space the batteries suck up, and whether they can handle the electrical load without ending up offsetting the fuel savings or killing the batteries. I absolutely think it's coming. I just literally don't know that it's there yet -- though Carol's mention of the agency using a Ford Escape suggests that at least some of those areas are OK. But, it looks like that is literally a couple of agencies using hybrids in a patrol capacity.


Also Cost prob being the biggest factor for departments the Hybrid is alot more expensive then a base model Tahoe used for police package.


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Also Cost prob being the biggest factor for departments the Hybrid is alot more expensive then a base model Tahoe used for police package.


And I don't think the hybrids are on the state purchase plan, which we generally buy off of.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 17, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Well, there is this little bit in the news...
> 
> http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/headline_of_the_day_you_wont_see_anywhere_gm_bailout_costs_skyrocket.html
> 
> ...



It is not a loss until the sell. And at $23 to break even yes they would loss money today, but the already banked a profit. But then again this is the same organization that allows Fannie Mae to book a Loss when you refinance your loan because of loss of future income as they have to buy out the investors who bought into the old interest loan rate.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 17, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> I dont disagree with you but you asked why people are picking on GM and thats why.
> Why they are not picking on Chrysler I cant answer that maybe because other then the Jeep line Chrysler sucks or maybe its because GM is way bigger then Chrysler and is the face for the auto bail out. Maybe its because GM got more money then Chrysler. Maybe its because some still think GM didnt pay back its loan as they claim. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOaS2SymjQ4&feature=player_embedded#!



Yes it was a loan. Chrylser had loans before and this second time nothing bad. And yet, other than OWS, you really see nothing about the Banks and the bail outs they got which was a factor greater than any auto company.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 17, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Some of the areas that I'm not sure of the performance include response driving (not pursuit, since most agencies in my area prohibit pursuits in truck chassis vehicles due to stability concerns), space since I don't know how much space the batteries suck up, and whether they can handle the electrical load without ending up offsetting the fuel savings or killing the batteries. I absolutely think it's coming. I just literally don't know that it's there yet -- though Carol's mention of the agency using a Ford Escape suggests that at least some of those areas are OK. But, it looks like that is literally a couple of agencies using hybrids in a patrol capacity.



In a hybrid you get both electric motor and IC Engine propulsion to the wheels Lexus marketed theirs as a performance vehicle. So the acceleration is there. 
Electrical load is an issue for police vehilces, but with a HYbrid you can have the high voltage battery be used to shed some to the low voltage side if needed. Or jsut turn on the engine. Also if you step on the pedal and request a certain level of response or torque, then the Engine also kicks on and it reacts like you have stepped on it from a stand still. 



ballen0351 said:


> Also Cost prob being the biggest factor for departments the Hybrid is alot more expensive then a base model Tahoe used for police package.



Cost is a big issue. I stated this numerous times. Also we are just exchanging one precious commodity for another. Oil for Precious Metals. 



jks9199 said:


> And I don't think the hybrids are on the state purchase plan, which we generally buy off of.


I cannot speak to the state purchase plan. 

I do know that based upon down time for repairs and oil changes and fuel usage the Hybrid busses paid for themselves in the first year. The big issue was they were actually down less. They needed have less vehicles in the fleet to make sure a certain number were always able and running well. They also had less oil changes (* less down time for maintenance *) and brake repairs which saved them money. Add in the engine of at stop and you saved lots of fuel while passengers were loading and unloading. 

So a cost study needs to be done with the cost of extra vehicles on hand with cost for maintenance versus the of the new vehicle and the expected or projected values. Of course this will get better when more agencies pick them up and there is more actual ata to be shared and used in the above model.


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2011)

Another, often hidden or overlooked, maintenance cost for many fleets is training time for the techs/mechanics.  While I'm sure there is some overlap -- I'm equally confident that there is a lot of hybrid-specific stuff to learn, especially in the switchover.

The nice thing about hybrids is that they're often being built on existing platforms, like the Tahoe.  So a lot of equipment and gear is already made for them.

Like I said -- I'm confident that they're coming.  You'll probably see them in real use (sorry, one car each in two departments isn't real use!) start in things like Support Services, investigations and specialties like SROs, or parking enforcement.  Maybe for some of the brass...  

OK, I take that back.  Looks like NYPD is actually putting them in use, in patrol.

Gonna have to ask around about what people think...


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## granfire (Nov 17, 2011)

Is greener yet though


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## billc (Nov 18, 2011)

This is from the article, are any of the points wrong about the money that went to GM and the volt?



> Umm, yes.  Opponents like us.
> _Start with the $50 billion bailout (without which none of this would have been necessary), add $240 million in Energy Department grants doled out to G.M. last summer, $150 million in federal money to the Volts Korean battery supplier, up to $1.5 billion in tax breaks for purchasers and other consumer incentives, and some significant portion of the $14 billion loan G.M. got in 2008 for retooling its plants, and youve got some idea of how much taxpayer cash is built into every Volt._
> Fantastic.
> Explicably, the Volt isnt selling.  Less than 4,000 thus far in 2011  putting it on pace for about 6,000 for the year.
> ...


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 19, 2011)

II hate Win 7 it jsut erassed everything with a double click. When I get the chance to do it again I will. 

But the DoE money was not for the Volt, so there are errors and there arguement is not sound.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 1, 2011)

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...volt-is-drivers-favorite-topping-even-porsche

The Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric car is the most popular among owners, topping a perennial favorite that costs twice as much, the Porsche 911, and a recent addition, the Dodge Challenger, according to an annual survey published Thursday by Consumer Reports.


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## Carol (Dec 1, 2011)

> For the record, these fires took place days or weeks after extreme crash  testing in which the Volt successfully protected occupants and earned  the highest possible safety scores.



DAYS or WEEKS after the crash?  



> The lesson here is to get out of a crashed car within a few days, and be  sure to turn off the lights when exiting.  A gasoline car might not be  as obliging in providing an opportunity to climb out before combusting.



:lol:
:


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## billc (Dec 1, 2011)

On a positive note, GM has offered to buy back the Volt of anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with them.  That is a decent policy, if they actually follow through.

http://biggovernment.com/publius/20...buy-back-chevy-volts-may-recall-entire-fleet/




> General Motors will buy Chevrolet Volts back from any owner who is afraid the electric cars will catch fire, the company&#8217;s CEO said Thursday.
> In an exclusive interview with The Associated Press, CEO Dan Akerson insisted that the cars are safe, but said the company will purchase the Volts because it wants to keep customers happy. Three fires have broken out in Volts after side-impact crash tests done by the federal government.
> Akerson said that if necessary, GM will recall the more than 6,000 Volts now on the road in the U.S. and repair them once the company and federal safety regulators figure out what caused the fires.
> &#8220;If we find that is the solution, we will retrofit every one of them,&#8221; Akerson said. &#8220;We&#8217;ll make it right.&#8221;
> ...


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 2, 2011)

From: http://www.freep.com/article/20111201/BUSINESS0101/111201066/1205/BUSINESS01

[h=1]House fire investigators say Chevy Volt charger not to blame in North Carolina blaze[/h]





> ...
> Garland Cloer, Iredell County&#8217;s chief deputy fire marshal, said it appears the fire did not start in the electric car. He wouldn&#8217;t say more about the fire&#8217;s origin, because investigators for several agencies and manufacturers are still examining the debris.
> ...
> 
> ...


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## billc (Dec 7, 2011)

This update on the GM promise to buy back the Chevy Volt from any customer who felt uncomfortable with the possible fire hazard...GM Spokes woman, Emily Litella....


Never Mind.

Thank you Ms. Litella.


(I knew it sounded too good to be true...and it was...).


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