# Dealing with Power hitters



## KenpoTess (Aug 15, 2003)

you know the kind.. newbies who come in and spar like they are fighting for their very lives.. white belts, flailing ,, spinning backfists,, kicking  and punching  with all their strength..   You as their partner/ instructor put up with only so much.. til you return.. Power to Power..   
Oh I know we've all been there.. just  spouting off 
*looking at a livid purple bruise on my tricep.. and knowing StickDummy has a nasty one on his elbow from this newbie.. sheesh~!!


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## Robbo (Aug 15, 2003)

> StickDummy has a nasty one on his elbow from this newbie



I'd hate to see what kind of bruise the newbie has if he hit an elbow that hard.

You are there to teach and help not be a punching bag, be sure and let them know this otherwise let them spar with somebody that far outclasses them, a person who can keep them in check without taking the damage. I used to know a guy that would just make you look silly when you fought him, beat you to the punch every time or evade...brutal. Stepped up your game though.

I was going to suggest that you could block with your elbows and shins, that usually gives them a hint they are doing something wrong or a good shot to the solar plexus which shouldn't be too hard to nail if they are newbies.

And I suppose you could look at it like a learning experiance of absorbing blows (trying to put a positive spin on it for you)

Rob


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## KenpoTess (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
> *I'd hate to see what kind of bruise the newbie has if he hit an elbow that hard.
> 
> You are there to teach and help not be a punching bag, be sure and let them know this otherwise let them spar with somebody that far outclasses them, a person who can keep them in check without taking the damage. I used to know a guy that would just make you look silly when you fought him, beat you to the punch every time or evade...brutal. Stepped up your game though.
> ...



the newbie kicked .. Stickdummy blocked with his elbow..  oh it's a learning experience for the newbie.. we all told him.. relax.. lay off the power.. but he didn't get it..  he will learn.. he's a purple belt in some offshoot of Kenpo that only has 3 yellow tecs.. and has not a clue how to fight.. we'll teach him


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## jeffkyle (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *the newbie kicked .. Stickdummy blocked with his elbow..  oh it's a learning experience for the newbie.. we all told him.. relax.. lay off the power.. but he didn't get it..  he will learn.. he's a purple belt in some offshoot of Kenpo that only has 3 yellow tecs.. and has not a clue how to fight.. we'll teach him  *



To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, but to feel is to believe.
:asian:


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## KenpoTess (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, but to feel is to believe.
> :asian: *



Touche'


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## Turner (Aug 15, 2003)

I know this type pretty well. I've seen it in a lot of beginners and sadly I've seen it in a few Black Belts.

With the beginners all you can do is be patient. You try to teach that it is a friendly environment and that all techniques should connect with 50% power. Of course then the same novices will connect with 90% power and brag that they are only using 50% power. In time they'll relax and it'll work out.

With the Black Belts it's pretty much fried into their thick heads. They didn't get it way back when and they don't get it now. The best thing to do is put the hard hitters with the people that like being hit hard. I love going all out with the hard hittin' beginners and the black belts. However noone else did and I reduced the amount of training time that the hard hitters spent with anyone else.


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## Seig (Aug 16, 2003)

Usually, these knuckleheads go against me first.  They seem to think that because I have shown them that they really know NOTHING that they have to try and prove it on everyone else.


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## satans.barber (Aug 16, 2003)

This has happened to me, i warn them about 3 times for contact, the last one being a serious warning, and if they carry on then I put them up against some brown belts and mention they havea  contact problem that needs 'addressing'.

They get hurt back, then about 80% leave the club never to be seen again, and the other 20% realise the correct temperament and beign their martial arts journey.

You _can_ only tell people so many times though...

Ian.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2003)

I've seen this happen many times also.  I think they just get excited about fighting with an upper rank and they want to see what they can do.  Due to the fact that they are new, they need to constantly be told about the contact, control, etc.

Usually when I spar a new person, or anyone of a lower rank for that matter, I go at their pace.  I tell them up front that I will only go as hard as they go against me.  There are times when you need to "spank" them a little to get your point across if they continue to go hard, but you dont want to put the through the wall!  If it seems that they are not learning the lesson, then they are done with sparring for that time--No exceptions!!

Dont get me wrong, I have no prob. with going hard with someone, but there always has to be that fine line.  Your training should be a learning experience, not to see who can hurt the other person worse!

Mike


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## clapping_tiger (Aug 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *I've seen this happen many times also.  I think they just get excited about fighting with an upper rank and they want to see what they can do.  Due to the fact that they are new, they need to constantly be told about the contact, control, etc.
> 
> Usually when I spar a new person, or anyone of a lower rank for that matter, I go at their pace.  I tell them up front that I will only go as hard as they go against me.  There are times when you need to "spank" them a little to get your point across if they continue to go hard, but you dont want to put the through the wall!  If it seems that they are not learning the lesson, then they are done with sparring for that time--No exceptions!!
> ...



This is what we do when we spar. The instructor always reminds the class that the lower belt dictates the pace, and aggressiveness of the match. Mostly it is ment as a reminder to the higher belts to take it easy (power and contact, not let them win)on the ones with less experience. But it also lets the lower belts know that if they come at us hard, we will do the same, within reason.  We don't want to injure someone, or get injured ourselves. For the most part we have not had a problem at the school, but at tournaments that is a differnt matter. There was this one guy, a Yellow Belt, who was always looking like he thought he was in the UFC and out for blood. Everytime he would compete he would lose points, or get disqualified.


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## IsshinryuKarateGirl (Aug 16, 2003)

Hmmm...you're dealing with power hitters and I'm dealing with this brain dead person.  God, we're during class and we're working self defense (the type where you just work technique and you are supposed to go with the flow of things) and this kid who I had to work techiques on and he would just stand there.  I mean, he didn't know which attack to use and he also wouldn't be taken down easy.  Well, a few attacks later, I really showed him who's boss.  The technique I did and the take-down I did...you could see the pain and shock on his face.  Even though I did this, he still didn't pay attention and didn't go with the flow.  I wouldn't be so mad if this person was a lower rank, but he's a brown belt...he should know better than this!  I am just very fed up with this kid and I'm just venting off some anger...I'll fix him soon though...just wait till we have a class with sparring and he'll see who doesn't pay attention....


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## Tomyum (Aug 16, 2003)

I've been training in muay thai for about 2 years, so I've taken and dished out a fair share of punishment in sparring and fights. 

I think going at 60% power/ 90% speed is good for people to learn. I've had beginners escelate in sparring up to full contact trying to knock my block off with overhands and kick me into the wall. I ask them if they are ok with me bringing up the intensity and if so, then I go for knock down kicks to the thigh and body and try to work their body like a heavy bag.

IMO Pounding the body/legs consistently for one round usually brings down the intensity to 50-60%. Think about it; hitting their ribs, solar plexus and abs is like squeezing the air out of an open baloon. In muay thai we kick to the legs alot, so if you have a head hunter coming after you, nothing slows him down and gains his respect like 1-2 solid kicks to the thigh of his lead leg.

Don't take it personal and show rank. Show him what you've got.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> **looking at a livid purple bruise on my tricep.. and knowing StickDummy has a nasty one on his elbow from this newbie.. sheesh~!! *



I like a front kick to try and knock them on their ****.:rofl: ....However I have noticed over the years that a sidekick placed on the arm works just as well. Eventually they learn to calm down the power.


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## RCastillo (Aug 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *you know the kind.. newbies who come in and spar like they are fighting for their very lives.. white belts, flailing ,, spinning backfists,, kicking  and punching  with all their strength..   You as their partner/ instructor put up with only so much.. til you return.. Power to Power..
> Oh I know we've all been there.. just  spouting off
> *looking at a livid purple bruise on my tricep.. and knowing StickDummy has a nasty one on his elbow from this newbie.. sheesh~!! *



I ask them once, to cool it, and like you, I also tell them ahead of time. If they go off, I Mike Tyson their butt. One student I had I put him through my garage wall. He did come back, and learned the errors of his ways, made it to 2nd Brown before he moved away.

Another gentleman, with 15 yrs of experiece , mainly in Filipino Arts, and 11 yrs older than me went all over me, so I floored him with a right cross, he never came back. I don't need that kind of student, cause I will dismantle him. 

Moral of this story: Never go hard on this old man unless you're tired of living, or put up some BIG money!:asian:

Post Script: If I ever get to go to W.Virginia, remind me to FORGET my gear. I don't want  a souvenir Black Eye from Queen Tess!


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## progressivetactics (Aug 16, 2003)

Yes..we have all seen our shares of knuckle heads newbies, or just un-aware of their own power-people who have trouble with speed/contact in class while practicing.  I typically fight all new people the first time, and select who will be assigned that person until they develop some style.  I can monitor ability/power, etc. before handing them off to someone, and I give them a forewarning of what the new one is like.

One thing to remember about that difficult newbie....They are giving you much more of a realism then the partner who just 'goes with it'.  Often we get conditioned by a partner who knows the fall, knows the combination, knows our body types...our thresholds.....and respects all of that.
A new person without that preconcieved notion, either out of ignorance or lack of consideration or just plain a newbie makes you realize how your techniques need to be modified for actual application.  Often they are not as pretty perfect as we would like them to be.


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## MJS (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I like a front kick to try and knock them on their ****.:rofl: ....However I have noticed over the years that a sidekick placed on the arm works just as well. Eventually they learn to calm down the power. *



Good point!  I've actually done the same thing.  I've fought some people that come in hard, but seem to have a good guard, so some of the kicks land on their arms.  While they didnt think that this was taking a toll on them, because they still kept coming in hard, and I kept hitting them hard in the arm, they realized the next day, when their arms were sore.  They said to me, "Wow, my arms are so sore from sparring the other day."  I remind them, that if they slowed down a little, maybe next time, it wouldn't be as bad.  Unfortuantely, some of them still didnt listen.  It was like talking to the wall!

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> [
> One thing to remember about that difficult newbie....They are giving you much more of a realism then the partner who just 'goes with it'.  Often we get conditioned by a partner who knows the fall, knows the combination, knows our body types...our thresholds.....and respects all of that.
> A new person without that preconcieved notion, either out of ignorance or lack of consideration or just plain a newbie makes you realize how your techniques need to be modified for actual application.  Often they are not as pretty perfect as we would like them to be. [/B]



Very True!  I couldnt agree with you more!!!  They definatley have this way of keeping you in check! Thats why its important to train with different people.  Grabbing a blue belt and doing your BB tech. will definately give you a different feel to them!

Mike


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## stickarts (Aug 17, 2003)

We let students know up front that we spar at the pace that they set.
If someone has controlled power techniques, there are fight strategies for that.
If someone is out of control, i am quick to warn them and also will have them take the gear off for the night and tell them to go home! 
Also, everyone has the right to spar only other students/ instructors that they are comfortable with. 
There needs to be a strong person running the ring that keeps control of the ring.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Mike *



Yeah! ,That's exactly what I'm talking about. After quite a few sidekicks to the bicep they tend to change sides. Then proceed to pound the other arm. Usually what I would get is "Hey would you quit kicking my arm". I would say "Would you calm down on the power".


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## RCastillo (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Yeah! ,That's exactly what I'm talking about. After quite a few sidekicks to the bicep they tend to change sides. Then proceed to pound the other arm. Usually what I would get is "Hey would you quit kicking my arm". I would say "Would you calm down on the power". *



Try doing that to my "Pythons", and they'll bite back!


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Try doing that to my "Pythons", and they'll bite back! *



I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!! 


While I may not have knock out power......  I do know however that I can hit in many multiple combinations that work for me  . Watch out for my ridge hand.:asian:


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## RCastillo (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> While I may not have knock out power......  I do know however that I can hit in many multiple combinations that work for me  . Watch out for my ridge hand.:asian: *



I'll smother you like your favorite blanket!


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I'll smother you like your favorite blanket!  *



I don't have one..... Now female that's another story. :rofl:


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## Tomyum (Aug 17, 2003)

I just realized that men and women are in the same locker room and not gawking. Its like Europe!


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## progressivetactics (Aug 17, 2003)

quote: Originally posted by RCastillo 
I'll smother you like your favorite blanket

That is a good one!  





> I just realized that men and women are in the same locker room and not gawking. Its like Europe!



Just like alli mcbeal (ashamed i have watched that show).. Men and women share a bathroom.
Of course....im sure that would end ALL inter-office mingling in the real world....Nothing like sitting down next to the hot receptionist and listening to her re-hash her Taco Bell from lunch!!!

wow..did this take a bad turn, or what?


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> *....Nothing like sitting down next to the hot receptionist and listening to her re-hash her Taco Bell from lunch!!! *



 :rofl: :rofl:  ROTFLMFAO


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## progressivetactics (Aug 17, 2003)

sorry it got off on a bad note (toot) there!

I'll try to stick to the topic better!

sometimes, those over adreniline new kids make for great uke's too. (when i say kid, of course I mean 12 and up).  Let them use their own force against them. Demonstrate how high blocks can actually be throws, etc... When they come at you full force.....yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Sometimes, they slow down  after landing on the ground a few times.


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## Galvatron (Aug 17, 2003)

I simply stop them in the middle of sparring and give them a quick run down on self control, and inform them that sparring is not for maiming each other. That usually solves it, if it continues I just turn up the heat as much as I need to.

I've also found that most people new to the martial arts have a really difficult time with a sparring opponent that moves side to side on them alot, so usually when I spar a newbie they end up throwing dozens of kicks and punches at empty air, because I've already moved to their blind side.


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## Nightingale (Aug 17, 2003)

What my sparring instructor used to tell me:

"worry about your accuracy first... think about correct stances and focus on your target.  it doesn't matter how hard or fast you hit if you miss your target. slow down, relax, and learn the correct motions...

next, worry about your speed... it doesn't matter how accurate you are, or how hard you hit, if you're so slow that they can just move out of the way....

finally, worry about your power.  with accuracy and speed come power.  The harder you try to hit someone, the more likely you are to be off balance, or in an improper stance.  make sure your power comes from the right places, not from sheer muscle, because there's always going to be someone out there who's stronger than you, so muscling through won't always work."



They need to learn that the martial arts is about more than just hitting hard.  Its about developing proper body alignment and speed, and with the correct accuracy and speed, power will come.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Yeah! ,That's exactly what I'm talking about. After quite a few sidekicks to the bicep they tend to change sides. Then proceed to pound the other arm. Usually what I would get is "Hey would you quit kicking my arm". I would say "Would you calm down on the power". *



That is the way to do it!  Good to hear!


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## Seig (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *
> 
> Post Script: If I ever get to go to W.Virginia, remind me to FORGET my gear. I don't want  a souvenir Black Eye from Queen Tess! *


I have extra


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## progressivetactics (Aug 19, 2003)

extra gear, or extra black eyes?


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## Nightingale (Aug 19, 2003)

knowing Seig, probably both.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 19, 2003)

I've split lips, bloodied noses.. but dont' think I've ever given out a black eye.. yet..   Saving it just for Ricky....


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## progressivetactics (Aug 19, 2003)

should we question any contol issues?


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## KenpoTess (Aug 19, 2003)

Sparring blackbelts has it's perks.. No holds barred


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## progressivetactics (Aug 19, 2003)

good answer.

We allow much more with our adult bb's as well.  Except for the older ones.  We let them chose the pace.  I have 1 state trooper who is an excellent kicker and excellent grappler.  He sometimes out-classes the older ones, and they dont want to work as hard as he 'needs' to, as his job requires more physicality then others.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> *good answer.
> 
> We allow much more with our adult bb's as well.  Except for the older ones.  We let them chose the pace.  I have 1 state trooper who is an excellent kicker and excellent grappler.  He sometimes out-classes the older ones, and they dont want to work as hard as he 'needs' to, as his job requires more physicality then others. *



We have some BB's from other systems who like to play hard.. and it's all in good fun ..  When Stickdummy (BB -Filipino/Indonesian/Chinese/Japanese/Okinawan arts) and I get going..there's no rules.. same with Randy.. a Shorin Ryu BB who also has a background in ninjutsu, bojutsu, kenjutsu .. we may end up grappling  or utilizing a full nelson.. etc .. 
Stickdummy had set me up in one instance.. it was too good.. Grabbed his head and slammed it into my knee.. he looked up with a bloody nose.. ran and stuffed tissues up it.. and came back to finish the match 
we 40 somethings are to be contended with


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## progressivetactics (Aug 19, 2003)

no vanity at 40.  You are there to work!  Cool stuff.

I'll let you know when I get there!!!


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## KenpoTess (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> *no vanity at 40.  You are there to work!  Cool stuff.
> 
> I'll let you know when I get there!!! *



You betcha !!  Very cool stuff..


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## RCastillo (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *I've split lips, bloodied noses.. but dont' think I've ever given out a black eye.. yet..   Saving it just for Ricky.... *



Whoa there!


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Whoa there! *



You are next!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## RCastillo (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *You are next!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *



Hey, cool it there Bolo!


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Hey, cool it there Bolo! *



I thought you claimed to be bolo?

By the way when are you going to teach me your spear set???


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## RCastillo (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I thought you claimed to be bolo?
> 
> By the way when are you going to teach me your spear set??? *



Your statement startled me, Spear Set? Which one, Skylight, Circular, or 8 Point Spear?


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## KenpoTess (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Whoa there! *



Let's see tonight we had an interesting night.. the new Tuesday night Shepherd college class started.. then after that sparring.. one new guy showed up.. a TKD'er who complained we were all too fast for him..    One of our brown belts connected  her jaw with his elbow in a 3 on one,  She didn't have her mouth guard in and her tooth went through her face.. below her bottom lip to the side.. Talk about a very ugly wound.. *shudders*   I only jammed my big toe on a yellow belt who blocks like a mack truck~!!   so it was a good night for most 

Ricky... don'tcha just wanna come out and play ??


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## Seig (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *knowing Seig, probably both. *


hey,
I've only given one black eye this year.  We have planty of extra gear for RC to use in case he forgets his.


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## Seig (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *Let's see tonight we had an interesting night.. the new Tuesday night Shepherd college class started.. then after that sparring.. one new guy showed up.. a TKD'er who complained we were all too fast for him..    One of our brown belts connected  her jaw with his elbow in a 3 on one,  She didn't have her mouth guard in and her tooth went through her face.. below her bottom lip to the side.. Talk about a very ugly wound.. *shudders*   I only jammed my big toe on a yellow belt who blocks like a mack truck~!!   so it was a good night for most
> 
> Ricky... don'tcha just wanna come out and play ??   *


We had one guy that wanted to use leg attacks too, he was a LOT of fun.....


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## theletch1 (Aug 20, 2003)

One of the things we do almost every class is an attack line.  One person center of the dojo, everyone else lined up along the wall.  Each person on the wall attacks the man in the middle one at a time with what ever attack comes to mind.  Uke is supposed to match the power and speed of the attack to the level of nages ability.  We do have a few that seem to think that even the first day student should be up to speed and attack all out.  It is great to see a few of the brand new students get lucky once in a while and send Mr. Ego flying across the dojo using his own energy.  When they get up shaking their heads the answer is always the same.... you decide how far you fly by the amount of power you apply.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *  She didn't have her mouth guard in and her tooth went through her face.. below her bottom lip to the side.. Talk about a very ugly wound..  *



I hope that she is ok?


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Your statement startled me, Spear Set? Which one, Skylight, Circular, or 8 Point Spear? *



I don't care which one... Teach me how to use one properly when jabbing someone. :rofl:


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## RCastillo (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I don't care which one... Teach me how to use one properly when jabbing someone. :rofl: *



Hey............wait, you're gonna spear me!


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## KenpoTess (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I hope that she is ok? *



Jennifer is a trooper for sure.. she gets such obscure injuries~!!  Last one was a total inside out dislocation of her pinky.. man that was a freaky sight~!! She was in class tonight sporting a bandaid over it.. she's doing just fine.. and happy she didn't have to wear the 'Crayola bandaid Seig put on her last night *G*


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## Seig (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I hope that she is ok? *


She was back in class tonight.  She seems to be ok, except for this drool that keeps appearing about half way down her chin.....


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Hey............wait, you're gonna spear me! *



Only if we don't get started soon.


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## Seig (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Only if we don't get started soon. *


Keep on him!  Use trainers though!


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Keep on him!  Use trainers though! *



I just figured on poking him with the spear.:rofl:


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## Seig (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I just figured on poking him with the spear.:rofl: *


What if he actually knows what he's doing?


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *What if he actually knows what he's doing? *



I guess I'll find out.


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## RCastillo (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I guess I'll find out. *



Cost you Chinese Dinner!


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Cost you Chinese Dinner! *



Fine. I just informed the family we were going tonight.


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## RCastillo (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Fine. I just informed the family we were going tonight. *



I'll bet the kids revolted on you!


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I'll bet the kids revolted on you! *



Nope,

They heard there were frog legs tonight.


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## RCastillo (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Nope,
> 
> They heard there were frog legs tonight. *



:barf:


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *:barf: *



Oh, no way. They are great.


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## Seig (Aug 25, 2003)

Rick,
You gonna be able to get a spear on a plane?  Start pricing into Dulles. 
Jason,
Keep on him.

You'll both be guests here, so there will not be a hotel bill.  But the 5 of us do have to share 1 bathroom.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Rick,
> You gonna be able to get a spear on a plane?  *



:rofl:  For some reason they just may not let it happen.



> Start pricing into Dulles.



$179 here.



> Jason,
> Keep on him.



You bet. 



> You'll both be guests here, so there will not be a hotel bill.



And again I will say that is very noble of you as I appreciate it very much. Sir.:asian: :asian: 



> But the 5 of us do have to share 1 bathroom.



Poor Tess.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> *you know the kind.. newbies who come in and spar like they are fighting for their very lives.. white belts, flailing ,, spinning backfists,, kicking  and punching  with all their strength..   You as their partner/ instructor put up with only so much.. til you return.. Power to Power..
> Oh I know we've all been there.. just  spouting off
> *looking at a livid purple bruise on my tricep.. and knowing StickDummy has a nasty one on his elbow from this newbie.. sheesh~!! *


Why not introduce sparring after the first grading? That way, they won't be newbies any more, but have three months' experience.


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## Seig (Aug 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Why not introduce sparring after the first grading? That way, they won't be newbies any more, but have three months' experience. *


Because I am vehemently opposed to that mentality.  The first reason behind that is because I don't want people to build up a fear of sparring.  I also do not "grade" on a regular or scheduled basis.  I feel sparring is essential to training at all levels.  It is a significant marker of progress.  The people that insist on fighting like it is a death match eventually go through the gauntlet, and then are told why they just had the snot beat out of them.  Don't misunderstand, the gauntlet is a last effort scenario, after they have been told repeatedly.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Why not introduce sparring after the first grading? That way, they won't be newbies any more, but have three months' experience. *



We also teach the college karate course... They get a taste of the basics and a few sparring sessions in the short semester time period.

And if we wait til they are not newbies after a few months training.. they will still be newbies when it comes to sparring.. just because they have a belt rank  doesn't give them the control they need to spar an opponent. .. even isometric... it would be difficult for them to grasp the concept by hitting a bag and not being hit back..


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> * I also do not "grade" on a regular or scheduled basis.  *


You don't grade regularly? Why not?


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## Nightingale (Aug 27, 2003)

because grading/testing should be done at the student's pace instead of at a regular time interval.  They may be ready earlier or later than a set "three months" or whatever.  That way, you don't push slower students into higher ranks or tests before they are ready, but you don't slow down quicker learners either.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *because grading/testing should be done at the student's pace instead of at a regular time interval.  They may be ready earlier or later than a set "three months" or whatever.  That way, you don't push slower students into higher ranks or tests before they are ready, but you don't slow down quicker learners either. *


Just because a grading is scheduled every three months, doesn't mean someone has to take it. So you're not pushing anybody. Your argument makes no sense.


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Just because a grading is scheduled every three months, doesn't mean someone has to take it. So you're not pushing anybody. Your argument makes no sense. *




I kind of like the idea of the head instructor telling you when he feels you are ready to test. :asian:


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I kind of like the idea of the head instructor telling you when he feels you are ready to test. :asian: *


Absolutely. And with regularly scheduled gradings, you then have something to aim for.


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## Nightingale (Aug 27, 2003)

so... if you have a grading every three months, what happens to the student who is ready in FOUR?

do you say "sorry. you have to wait two more months, because my next grading isn't for two months?" or do you test the student when they're ready?

And, as for having something to strive for, you've always got another belt to strive for.   How bad the student wants it is up to them.  If they really want it, they can advance quicker if they practice more and are always in class.  ya see?


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *so... if you have a grading every three months, what happens to the student who is ready in FOUR? *


They miss the grading three months' hence and take it in six months' time.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *do you say "sorry. you have to wait two more months, because my next grading isn't for two months?" or do you test the student when they're ready?*


Students don't get ready and then lose it again; enlightenment is incremental. They wait the extra two months. what's wrong with that?


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *And, as for having something to strive for, you've always got another belt to strive for.   How bad the student wants it is up to them.  If they really want it, they can advance quicker if they practice more and are always in class.  ya see? *


I don't see where your argument is coming from. People train regularly to train, not to advance through the belts. (Although it's always great to start new techniques from the next syllabus.)
There are minimum times between gradings, which grow longer apart the higher up the ladder you go, but just because a grading has come round doesn't mean you're obligated to take it. Sensei tells you when you're ready, anyway.


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## Seig (Aug 27, 2003)

AS far as I am concerned, regularly scheduled testing smacks of McDojo.  I tried it, I did not like the results.  A lot of the time what happens is that people work very hard to memorize certain things for testing and then promptly forget them, similiar mentality to the educational system.  I do not like it.  I tell my people, if you want to be promoted, you have to make me promote you.  You don't test because I want a new TV.  Regularly scheduled testing does not give a realisitic goal to strive for.  Giving someone a syllabus and telling them that when they can do the entire course correctly, then and only then will you consider testing them is quite motivating as well.  I do not assign time limits to my belts, I assign knowledge minimums.  I am not Japanese nor am I Buddhist, I do not teach enlightenment, I teach American Kenpo.  American Kenpo has a vast and diverse curriculuum, one doesn't memorize it and be successful, one learns it, adapts it, and is then proficient.  As one's skills grow in the curriculuum, so does their rank.  Making them wait til they have learned an entire belt's material does not make them better sparrers or really teach them what control is about.  Everything we do is a part of a process, it does not happen over night.  Part of the process is getting them into the thick of things immediately, it helps them gauge their own progress.  It also allows me to see where they actually started and what I can do to help them.  Some never really learn, some do.  The one's that do are easy, the one's that don't sometimes have to learn that all actions have consequences. Also, a great deal of people do not train to train, if they did, we would not needa  belt system.  A lot of people train to get the belts.  
    Making them wait to spar is not the answer in my school.  Teaching them to not intentionally or even accidentally hurt their training partners is.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *AS far as I am concerned, regularly scheduled testing smacks of McDojo.  I tried it, I did not like the results.  A lot of the time what happens is that people work very hard to memorize certain things for testing and then promptly forget them, similiar mentality to the educational system.  I do not like it.  I tell my people, if you want to be promoted, you have to make me promote you.  You don't test because I want a new TV.  Regularly scheduled testing does not give a realisitic goal to strive for.  Giving someone a syllabus and telling them that when they can do the entire course correctly, then and only then will you consider testing them is quite motivating as well.  I do not assign time limits to my belts, I assign knowledge minimums.  I am not Japanese nor am I Buddhist, I do not teach enlightenment, I teach American Kenpo.  American Kenpo has a vast and diverse curriculuum, one doesn't memorize it and be successful, one learns it, adapts it, and is then proficient.  As one's skills grow in the curriculuum, so does their rank.  Making them wait til they have learned an entire belt's material does not make them better sparrers or really teach them what control is about.  Everything we do is a part of a process, it does not happen over night.  Part of the process is getting them into the thick of things immediately, it helps them gauge their own progress.  It also allows me to see where they actually started and what I can do to help them.  Some never really learn, some do.  The one's that do are easy, the one's that don't sometimes have to learn that all actions have consequences. Also, a great deal of people do not train to train, if they did, we would not needa  belt system.  A lot of people train to get the belts.
> Making them wait to spar is not the answer in my school.  Teaching them to not intentionally or even accidentally hurt their training partners is. *


What does your new TV have to do with grading? Surely holding a grading when you feel like it is more akin to financial motivations than gradings at set intervals. And do you really consider Shorinji Kempo to be a McDojo? The syllabus isn't just about technique; sensei looks at your attitude, your control, your contributions, and a whole lot of other things before saying that you're ready to grade. People can't gauge their own process as well as Sensei can; he has perspective and ability based on experience. The belt system is necessary because its when you move up a grade that the new syllabus is introduced.
If people wait three months to first engage in randori, then they have three months' worth of techniques they can apply when sparring, as opposed to none from day one.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 27, 2003)

*nudging this back on topic.. please feel free to start a new thread.. and continue to keep things polite 

Tess


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 27, 2003)

Power Hitters!

I am one.

I am not one.

I learned control or my instructor would hit me back just as hard, only more often 

If you learn some good basics on your blocks you can either make it as painful for them or in the passing / deflection to take them off balance where buy it makes it easier for you to score or hit them properly.

One thing to remember is that you must protect yourself, no one else will.


(* Wishing Tess had not nudged the thread back on line, I so wanted to post about relativism versus structure, the first believes that there will be a unique soslution for each individual, the other tries to makes it one solution for everyone of for the norm.  *)


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## Seig (Aug 28, 2003)

New thread started


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