# Takamatsu and Judo



## Don Roley (Oct 1, 2004)

A recent article in Black Belt magazine I read reminded me that many people believe that Takamatsu Toshitsugu had a hand in the development of Judo and some stories claim that he trained together with the founer jigoro Kano before kano formed Judo. A few years ago some of us on the internet tried to figure out where this story began and it seems to have begun with the following web site.

http://members.aol.com/Cunningham/ju01002.htm

It states,



> (14) Kukishin Ryu. Kukishin is particularly well-known for its techniques involving staves of various lengths. Kano was a weapons expert, so it is not surprising that Takamatsu and Kano were relatively close friends and colleagues. Takamatsu's favorite empty-hand technique was a technique that most of us would recognize as hiza-guruma. It is from Takamatsu that Judo's hiza-guruma comes.



I have looked into this with the help of friends and we don't believe it. The author, Steve Cunningham, does not give any sources for us to look up. One of the guys I worked with tried contacting him and was not happy with Steve Cunningham's response. So there really seems to be nothing that he can point to in order to back up what he says.

In the minus corner here are the things that lead me to disbelieve the story.

1) I asked two Japanese teachers I train under and they both denied that Takamatsu had a relationship with Judo or met Jigoro Kano. I would expect them to have heard of such an important facet of Takamatsu's life if there was any truth to the matter.

2) Not once have I heard or read Hatsumi talk about the supposed relationship.

3) In the writings of Takamatsu, the DVD and the interview he did for Tokyo Sports News, etc, a relationship with judo or Kano is never mentioned.

4) Hiza-guruma, the technique Takamatsu supposably introduced to judo, does not resemble anything I have seen in the Bujinkan. Find the book by Kano entitled "Kodokan Judo" from Kodansha and look on page 61 for an example yourself.

5) Kano was active in the Tokyo area. Takamatsu was born several hundred miles south years after him. The first couple of decades are filled with stories of him in that area. The Kodokan was established in 1882 in Tokyo. If Takamatsu was 85 when he died in 1972, doing a simple bit of math says that by the time he was 20 or so basics like hiza guruma should have already been well established.

6) There are many stories, biographies, comics , movies, etc about the Kodokan in it's early stages in Japan. Not once does Takamatsu seem to have appeared in any of these stories or records.

So, I do not think there is any substance to this belief that many Takamatsu-den members have of a relationship and influence on Judo by Takamatsu. Anyone have anything to add?


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## Kizaru (Oct 1, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Anyone have anything to add?


After re-reading my original post I said,"what the heck, I'll look myself when I get home!" and edited my post.


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## Don Roley (Oct 1, 2004)

I should mention that the research I did a few years abck was not a solitary effort but that I owe a lot ot people like Paul Richardson among others that perhaps may not want their name mentioned on line. When I say that I came to a conclusion, it is because they helped out in some way to check certain things.


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## Don Roley (Oct 1, 2004)

Akimoto, a student of Takamatsu did join the Kodokan. But the sources I trust do not mention anything about him ever meeting Kano, much less Takamatsu doing so.

http://www.genbukanmexdojo.com/akimoto.htm

I think the above would have mentioned it if there was anything deeper to the relationship between Takamatsu and the formation of Judo.


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## Jay Bell (Oct 2, 2004)

> Anyone have anything to add?



Not to mention Takamatsu sensei's less than kind comments regarding Judo and it's ways.


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## DuckofDeath (Oct 2, 2004)

So Don misses sojobow so much he has to go out and find a surrogate!

Here's an online demonstration of _hiza-guruma_:

http://judoinfo.com/animate.htm

(It's seventh down in the list of techniques.)


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## bignick (Oct 2, 2004)

I have never met Sensei Cunningham, but my instructors have great respect for him. He's actually in town giving a seminar today, but I have to work so I'm out of luck.  I know very little about ninjutsu, but from what I hear Steve Cunningham is a great judoka...as for this connection, i find it doubtful


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## Patrick Skerry (Oct 3, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Not to mention Takamatsu sensei's less than kind comments regarding Judo and it's ways.


Hi Jay Bell,

I would be interested in any criticism of Judo by Takamatsu sensei or any other practitioner of ju-jutsu.  Thanks!


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## Jay Bell (Oct 3, 2004)

Hi Patrick,

Originally Posted by *Takamatsu Toshitsugu*


> In the martial arts there is no need to concentrate only on the aspect of winning when fighting. However, not to commit ones self to the fight is not a martial art - it is simply violence and such a person does not have an honest heart and is anti-humanist.  Nowadays, there is a sport of Judo which concentrates upon the pleasure of fighting and the building up of their bodies.  They only want to win and because of this they bend at their waist when fighting rather than maintaining their bodies upright.  When I think of this judo sport, since its birth from real martial arts, I feel ashamed and it gives me a chilling sensation.  A true martial artist wins by using the natural movements of the highest quality techniques and if one moves the body according to this theory then one will of course win.  In martial arts you need three points; these are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Gary Arthur (Oct 26, 2004)

I did read somewhere many years ago and i don't know where but when jigaro Kano wanted to make Judo popular he had have his students take part in many matches with jujutsu practitioners. Kano used a student of his that trained with Takamatsu. This student used Takamatsuden techniques to beat the jujustsu practitioners. This person acted like a kind of mercenary in this way.I heard that the technique this student used was Yama Arashi to beat the jujutsu guys.

Please bear in mind that this is something I read many years ago and I cannot remember the source. I am not for one moment saying this is true, but would be interested if anyone can clarify this.


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## Don Roley (Oct 27, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Please bear in mind that this is something I read many years ago and I cannot remember the source. I am not for one moment saying this is true, but would be interested if anyone can clarify this.



That is a very honest statement, but it has been my experience that it is the first thing to be dropped as the story travels over the internet.

The problem I have believing it is in two parts. The first is that in all the times I have heard Japanese bragging about Takamatsu, they never seem to have brought this up. There is no confirmation I know of for what you say. And I would expect that someone would be crowing about it in Japan if it were true.

Second, Takamtsu was 85 when he died in 1972, which means he was born in...1887, correct?

Well, the early history of the Kodokan was indeed a whole lot of challenge matches and such while they established themselves. If they did not win, they learned the stuff and added it to what they did. I am trying to remember the name of the jujutsu style, but the first time a Kodokan guy took a member to the ground he was tied up in knots. The school later became the core of the Kodokan _newaza_ techniques.

As the Kodokan got to be established, these types of things got less and less common. Later, Kano would send people to go and see other arts like aikido and study with it, but the challenges and such seem to have ended.

And if Takamatsu was really skilled, I mean _really, really skilled_ he might have been able to teach a student like this by age 20. He would have had to be a real superman, but lets say he was.

Well, Takamatsu was born in 1887 and the Kodokan was formed in 1882. So when Takamatsu's student was ready to bash challengers, a quarter century had passed since the founding of the Kodokan. It seems a little late for them to be doing the stuff they did when they were trying to establish themselves. And the older you make Takamatsu, the more established the Kodokan was and the less likely this story is.

So, the timing is off and there seems to be nothing the Japanese are aware of in terms of evidence. Unless we can get some more information, does anyone mind if I declare this story unlikely and in serious need of proof?


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## George Kohler (Oct 31, 2004)

It is possible that Mr. Cunningham saw Tanemura sensei's _Samurai Jujutsu_ videos by Panther Productions in 1994 or later. In the video it shows a technique similar to hiza guruma, which I believe is from Kukishin-ryu jujutsu.

BTW, the Kodo Senyokai Shobukyoku was connected to the Butokukai in its early stages of the Shobukyoku. At one time, during WWII, the Shobukyoku supervised the Butokukai. I also seem to recall that Iwami Nangaku was the head of the Judo Judge committee of the Shobukyoku. Apparently, people belonging to the Shobukyoku also recieved certificates in Judo. So, I am not surprised that Akimoto Fumio had rank in Judo.


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## George Kohler (Oct 31, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I am trying to remember the name of the jujutsu style, but the first time a Kodokan guy took a member to the ground he was tied up in knots. The school later became the core of the Kodokan _newaza_ techniques.



I believe the school was Fusen-ryu


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## r erman (Nov 1, 2004)

> I believe the school was Fusen-ryu



I've also heard that this was not a 'match' between judo and Fusen ryu, but a more controlled exchange of techniques.

BTW, the story of the student using 'Yama Arashi' is also circulated amongst Daito Ryu people, as the student was supposed to be a student of aikijujutsu.  There is no formal technique in Daito Ryu called yama arashi but the term was coined by a novelist(?) or writer of some sort and _may_ have been fictionalized, or, lacking the names of techniques, wrote what the technique looked like to him--a mountain storm.


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 1, 2004)

I always believed that Judo came from many jujutsu schools but mostly KITO Ryu. According to Tanemura Sensei Kito Ryu has many similarities with Kukishinden Ryu.


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## Don Roley (Nov 4, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> According to Tanemura Sensei Kito Ryu has many similarities with Kukishinden Ryu.



Did you hear that from him in person or can you give me some more exact references?

And I am surprised to hear he has that opinion. IMO, Kito ryu really is a lot more built around the concept of sutemi-nage, has a lot more of a "yawara" (go with) feeling and works less off of _tsuki_ and _Kansetsu-waza_ than Kukishinden ryu. Of course, my experience with Kito ryu has never been on the mat, merely sitting in on demonstrations, watching videos and examining the _koshiki no kata_ from Judo.


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## George Kohler (Dec 5, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> And I am surprised to hear he has that opinion. IMO, Kito ryu really is a lot more built around the concept of sutemi-nage, has a lot more of a "yawara" (go with) feeling and works less off of _tsuki_ and _Kansetsu-waza_ than Kukishinden ryu. Of course, my experience with Kito ryu has never been on the mat, merely sitting in on demonstrations, watching videos and examining the _koshiki no kata_ from Judo.



Not the dakentaijutsu, but the jujutsu of Kukishin-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-ryu. The similarities were the concepts of hontai, fudoshin and 'Rise and Fall.'

These were from the Genbukan "Bufu" newsletter.

In the newsletter, he also goes into the relationship of Kuki Nagato and Takino of Kito-ryu.


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## DuckofDeath (Jun 23, 2005)

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> Here's an online demonstration of _hiza-guruma_:
> 
> http://judoinfo.com/animate.htm
> 
> (It's seventh down in the list of techniques.)



Make that the tenth down in the list of animated techniques on the link above; I was thinking of the list of static drawings of techniques on the JudoInfo site, where it does fall seventh in the list.  My bad.


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## DWeidman (Jun 24, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So, I do not think there is any substance to this belief that many Takamatsu-den members have of a relationship and influence on Judo by Takamatsu. Anyone have anything to add?




Brandon Alvarez (http://www.shinobiwinds.com) may have something to add to this - if he so chooses.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy


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## Don Roley (Jun 24, 2005)

DWeidman said:
			
		

> Brandon Alvarez (http://www.shinobiwinds.com) may have something to add to this - if he so chooses.



Until he does, I stand by the evidence as I see it. The descriptions of his documentary seems to push the idea that the ninja were a suppressed minority. And I do not see that here in Japan.

I have heard from a person that Tanemura has talked about Kano and Takamatsu being friends. But these are reports of conversations and not something I can seem to find in any published source for myself. It would be interesting to hear how Tanemura heard the stories since his face to face time with Takamatsu was one day.

And of course, there is the issue of why I can't find a single mention by Takamatsu in interviews, etc mentioning a judo connection. That is kind of a strange oversight, don't you think?

Or the fact that I can't find anything by Hatsumi mentioning it. Would that not be something he would talk about and put on the DVD of Takamatsu? But there is nothing I can find from a 15 year student of Takamatsu and his chosen succesor.

And, every Japanese shihan in the Bujinkan I have asked about this has denied that Kano and Takamatsu were friends, or that Takamatsu had an influence on judo. Why don't they know if it is true? Some of them love to tell stories about Takamatsu and speak like he walked on water. Why woudl they leave out a great aspect of his life like that?


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## George Kohler (Jun 27, 2005)

If I remember correctly, during the early Shobukyoku days, members of the Shobukyoku received Judo rank. They also supervised the Butokukai for a short period.

I do know that Tanemura Sensei has gone to the Kodokan inquiring about Takamatsu Sensei. During one of those trips, one Judo person challenged Tanemura Sensei. Tanemura Sensei accepted the challenged, but the person later changed his mind. This was within the past year. I have not heard if Tanemura Sensei found anything about Takamatsu Sensei and his connection to Judo.


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## George Kohler (Jun 27, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> It would be interesting to hear how Tanemura heard the stories since his face to face time with Takamatsu was one day.



Akimoto Koki Sensei and Kimura Masaji Sensei would be his most likely sources.


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