# Eye Shots, Biting, Groin Shots and Other Dirty Tricks



## MJS (Jul 24, 2007)

Eye shots, groin hits, biting...all seem to be worth while things to do if the situation was right. All are pretty much found in every art. Take a look at a self defense technique, and you're bound to see at least one if not more than one strike I mentioned. 

However, many times, people will say that those shots are too difficult or impossible to practice, they can't be tested, and the list goes on and on and on.

So...I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts on those moves. Do you feel that they're effective tools? Do you feel confident in being able to apply them or pull them off in a SD situation? Do you train them?


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 24, 2007)

MJS said:


> Eye shots, groin hits, biting...all seem to be worth while things to do if the situation was right. All are pretty much found in every art. Take a look at a self defense technique, and you're bound to see at least one if not more than one strike I mentioned.
> 
> However, many times, people will say that those shots are too difficult or impossible to practice, they can't be tested, and the list goes on and on and on.
> 
> So...I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts on those moves. Do you feel that they're effective tools? Do you feel confident in being able to apply them or pull them off in a SD situation? Do you train them?



One should practice the move. 

How do you make it live. Not sure how the average person would do it. I know some will use a grapefruit or orange for thumb jabs to practice the eye jabs.

Now from experience. when rolling with someone and you poke their eye they move. This creates an opening. It is a short time frame so you need to be prapared. Note: That they can do this back. With Groin shots, I know lots like the knee. I prefer the Knee to the bladder. If I go for the groin I use the ridge hand like strike to all for grabbing. Now some will say Grabbing teh peach. And that may work. I just grab thigh usually and this allows for one to change their center and usually their orientation. (* Throw their but to the ground *). 

I like the throat jab a lot myself. I have no illusion that it will be the end of the fight it is just a way to get a reaction to allow a release or movement to better position.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 24, 2007)

You know MJS I was thinking about posting a similar post. Thanks for reading my mind!

Anyways. Biting, I've posted my peace on that. 

Eye strikes. Well... for those who haven't read my thread 'discussion of philosophy', I have an idiot brother in law. I have already decided on this line for the next time he decides he wants to 'play fight' with me. "Adam, you see this thumb (as I hold up my thumb), if you get me to fight you it means you have put me in fear of my life. When that happens, you're gonna get a real good look at this thumb when I use it gouge your eye out." I really doubt he'll want to fight after that. If nothing else, the intimidation factor works.

Groin strikes. They do work. Cuong Nhu sparring allows groin strikes. And trust me, they work.

Most of the rest of the "dirty stuff" is consider along the lines of pressure point strikeing. Do I think they work? Yes. On the occasion we do Judo style Randori, I use a Chin Na technique I know, works every time. And yes, it is a dirty trick.


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## Hawke (Jul 25, 2007)

Ear slaps.....I practice on hitting the shoulders with variations.

Bite....already posted (cover a turkey leg or some ham in a t-shirt).

Eye gouges....above the eye brows or the usual orange/grape fruit.

Groin.....we wear cups so we hit either foot, hand, knee, elbow, forearm.

In Kung Fu San Soo they love to target these areas and anything that may be available.


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## thetruth (Jul 25, 2007)

One doesn't have to practice those strikes with full intent to be effective.  If that were the case then punching and kicking wouldn't be effective in any arts unless practiced full contact so one could actually see the results and not all arts spar full contact.
Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Hand Sword (Jul 25, 2007)

MJS said:


> Eye shots, groin hits, biting...all seem to be worth while things to do if the situation was right. All are pretty much found in every art. Take a look at a self defense technique, and you're bound to see at least one if not more than one strike I mentioned.
> 
> However, many times, people will say that those shots are too difficult or impossible to practice, they can't be tested, and the list goes on and on and on.
> 
> So...I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts on those moves. Do you feel that they're effective tools? Do you feel confident in being able to apply them or pull them off in a SD situation? Do you train them?


 
They are definitely effective tools when used for real. They get immediate reactions from an opponent. I feel very confident about using them and have in my past. We used train them in our punch techniques.


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## Mr. E (Jul 25, 2007)

The problem with testing these types of moves is one of intent.

If you tried this stuff with a friend, there is just no way they would try to attack your eyes the way someone high on crack might. Friends will hold back on friends without a concious choice. A light tap on the eyes is hard enough. No one decent would actually try to blind someone they knew and trained with for life. And people have gouged people's eyes out and do it every year in real sitautions.

But someone high on crack, or just adrenaline, may take more than normal damage and still keep coming.

The idea put forward by Rich Parsons of using grapes or oranges is a usefull one for getting people used to the idea of attacking someone's eyes instead of holding back like decent  folk. If should be done by everyone that advocates eye strikes and gouges. But it does not help with the testing process.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 25, 2007)

They can all be effective in the right situation.  As for alive practice with these techniques and a partner.  Well that is difficult with the eye strikes and biting in that you cannot go all out even with goggles.  Using finger breaks during grappling is effective as well but you cannot go all out with your partners as well or walla you will definately have some broken digits. (hence why it is banned in the UFC)  You can practice technique, stand up spar or grapple with groin shots wearing a cup so that both individuals get used to striking that area.  That is not a problem as all and trust me in that even with a cup this can be effective.  When practicing dirty shorts, etc. I think it is a mind set that is most important.  Practice it during your technique training and have the mind set that you will use them and they will definately be there for you in the moment.


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## Drac (Jul 25, 2007)

For the eye gouge we use one of those BOB's from Centuary MA..The officer lies on the ground blindfolded and the BOB is dropped on his/her chest..They locate the ears with their middle fingers and once that is done the eyes are just under the thumbs when the open their hands..


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## MaartenSFS (Jul 25, 2007)

I don't think that these are any different from the usual techniques. The best way to study martial arts is to improve your condition, learn some basics, and go straight to the battlefield. If you come back alive you'll be a killing machine. But, sadly, this is not an option for all of us, today...

I think the BOB Drac was talking about is quite useful. The problem is that it cannot move and has no legs. The hardness is good though. Hard enough to practise, but soft enough not to break your fingers. And you can push it around a bit.

I personally like to practise with bean bags. I close my eyes and let someone throw 1kg beans bags at me and scream "GO!". I use my fingers to catch them and improve the strength. Then I do finger-tip push-ups and some Iron Palm training. After that I find some thick cardboard and draw a crude human torso. I let someone hold it and randomly move it around while I have my eyes closed and repeat the same. The trick is to use thicker cardboard every time and eventually work up to wood. After having practised for some time one can get accurate and just feel the right places. Enjoy.

 I'm waiting for the day where we can create "expendable training partners", like human-like robots or cheap clones. Then we can really experimement!


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## Drac (Jul 25, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I'm waiting for the day where we can create "expendable training partners", like human-like robots or cheap clones. Then we can really experimement!


 
I dunno about that...Did you see the movie "I Robot"????


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 25, 2007)

Or Bicenntenial Man. Whats scarier, an army of homocidial robots far stronger, faster and smarter then us, or one which is aware and begins to blur the line between robot and human?


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## kidswarrior (Jul 25, 2007)

Hawke said:


> Ear slaps.....I practice on hitting the shoulders with variations.
> 
> Bite....already posted (cover a turkey leg or some ham in a t-shirt).
> 
> ...


Yup.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 25, 2007)

Drac said:


> For the eye gouge we use one of those BOB's from Centuary MA..The officer lies on the ground blindfolded and the BOB is dropped on his/her chest..They locate the ears with their middle fingers and once that is done the eyes are just under the thumbs when the open their hands..


Good use of BOB. I've mostly used him in upright position--till now.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 25, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> They can all be effective in the right situation.  As for alive practice with these techniques and a partner.  Well that is difficult with the eye strikes and biting in that you cannot go all out even with goggles.  Using finger breaks during grappling is effective as well but you cannot go all out with your partners as well or walla you will definately have some broken digits. (hence why it is banned in the UFC)  You can practice technique, stand up spar or grapple with groin shots wearing a cup so that both individuals get used to striking that area.  That is not a problem as all and trust me in that even with a cup this can be effective.  _When practicing dirty shorts, etc. I think it is a mind set that is most important._ *Practice it during your technique training and have the mind set that you will use them and they will definately be there for you in the moment.*


I agree, Brian. Very key.


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## still learning (Jul 25, 2007)

Hello, These techniques' of eye shots,biting,hitting the groin,other dirty tricks like breaking fingers and YES - breaking TOES if it presents itself.

If fighing for your life,especially against more than one person....YOU do what you need to survive.....you can alway give back the eyes?

Most of these techniques are taught in our system.  NO such thing as dirty fighting or cleaning fighting on the streets for you to survived.

Learn hair pulling techniques too!

Also learn about you own STATE laws too, for these situtions! 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The eyes are the BEST tarkets to hit (raking/scatching/poking)....take away eyes....give's you a better chance of escaping!

Seeing is believing ......C's are good .in school better to make A's

on the streets is better to go the I's ....raise you hand for the I's ?   The I's have it (eyes')

Should not be hard to find? ...just above the nose on two sides ( usually refer to as the left eye and the right eye! 

Poke the right eye? ...you only half done!  What left?

Aloha and "SEE" ... you later


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## MaartenSFS (Jul 25, 2007)

Drac said:


> I dunno about that...Did you see the movie "I Robot"????


 


CuongNhuka said:


> Or Bicenntenial Man. Whats scarier, an army of homocidial robots far stronger, faster and smarter then us, or one which is aware and begins to blur the line between robot and human?


 
Finally a worthy adversary!


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## thardey (Jul 25, 2007)

I try to think in terms of disabling an attacker's "tools" or what they need to attack me.

1st, sight: Eyes, nose (makes their eyes water.)
2nd, stop the supply of oxygen: Solar plexus, trachea, "sleeper" hold.
3rd, Balance and movement: ears (slapping, twisting, "boxing"), head (jaw, temple), knees, ankles, feet.
4th, their "weapons": hands, fingers, elbows, shoulders.

Of course, I won't only attack them in that order - I'll take whatever openings he gives me, but that's my preference.

I don't really care to "hurt" them - in the wrong circumstances, they won't feel pain no matter what I do. I want to "stop" them. And the more tools I take away from them, the easier each step gets, if they chose to continue the fight.

If they can't see me, they can't breathe, they can't hit me, and they can't stand up, what are they gonna do? Bleed on me?


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## seasoned (Jul 25, 2007)

MJS said:


> Eye shots, groin hits, biting...all seem to be worth while things to do if the situation was right. All are pretty much found in every art. Take a look at a self defense technique, and you're bound to see at least one if not more than one strike I mentioned.
> 
> However, many times, people will say that those shots are too difficult or impossible to practice, they can't be tested, and the list goes on and on and on.
> So...I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts on those moves. Do you feel that they're effective tools? Do you feel confident in being able to apply them or pull them off in a SD situation? Do you train them?


  It is all in the mind set. Law Enforcement and Military don't kill people for practice but when the time comes we all expect them to do their job.


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## still learning (Jul 25, 2007)

Hello, Most of us know how to bite?   Do we need to practice this on an attacker?

Off course the way you train is the way you will fight.  There are lots and lots of things we do every day that is related to the martial arts of fighting.

We all grew up learning how to throw a ball, use a stick/bat to swing it, we all know how to jump,run, and swing our arms.

Blocking has become almost a natural part of us (because of ducking).

Most cartoons has so much violance...we watch them hit,blow-up,shoot,hit, strike each other, punch the other guy (popeye),...fighting is a learn thing that has become a part of us.  Martial  arts just makes it more effective and deadly.

Even if you do not train most of us know we can fight back (not very well)....Make anyone mad enought? ....they will attack in there own way!...........Aloha


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 26, 2007)

MJS said:


> Eye shots, groin hits, biting...all seem to be worth while things to do if the situation was right. All are pretty much found in every art. Take a look at a self defense technique, and you're bound to see at least one if not more than one strike I mentioned.
> 
> However, many times, people will say that those shots are too difficult or impossible to practice, they can't be tested, and the list goes on and on and on.
> 
> So...I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts on those moves. Do you feel that they're effective tools? Do you feel confident in being able to apply them or pull them off in a SD situation? Do you train them?


Without reading the other responses first, my opinion of thes moves are that while they may be effective on the street with an untrained opponent, they are all too often a mental crutch. Would you rather poke a guy in the eye or... get off the line of attack, cancel heighth, width, and depth. If your answer is Eye Poke you are on the wrong path.
Sean


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## Big Don (Sep 3, 2007)

Eye shots? Groin Shots? Just your everyday Kenpo. Why? Because it works, that 's why


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## Adept (Sep 6, 2007)

Most of the 'cheap shots' don't require intensive training or good physical condition, as they are usually very simple and very intuitive;

1 - Grab skull

2 - Insert thumbs into eye sockets

3 - Scrabble around a bit

Saying that these sort of techniques aren't reliable because they can't be consistently trained at full strength and speed is missing the point. These techniques are considered cheap and dirty because there is next to no effective defence, they are easy to execute and often have debilitating effect.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 6, 2007)

Adept said:


> Most of the 'cheap shots' don't require intensive training or good physical condition, as they are usually very simple and very intuitive;
> 
> 1 - Grab skull
> 
> ...


Never bothered to diagnose the reasons for effectiveness of 'cheap shots' this deeply, but now that you mention it... 

Kung Fu San Soo, as Hawke mentioned awhile back, uses all these targets/attacks routinely, and as an art, for the most part doesn't rely on  fine motor skills--which are the first thing to go in the adrenaline dump of a fight. 'Easy to execute and...debilitating' pretty well sums it up.


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## Cruentus (Sep 7, 2007)

Just thought I'd offer a quick response:

There are certain things to remember when considering "dirty" tricks and fighting without rules.

1. Always take a scientific approach when training and analyzing any technique.

2. Realize that your practice will never perfectly resemble the conditions of a live "on the street" scenario, and always take into account those limitations.

By taking a scientific approach, you are gathering data or using previously gathered data that fits the conditions under which a fight would occur, and making conclusions based off that to project the results for using a particular approach (technique, tactic, etc.) This means looking at statistics, forensics, case studies (anecdotal), human biology, and so on, and doing so in as unbiased of a way as possible. This is how we have our data on the "adrenaline dump" that people always talk about. There is actual evidence out there regarding adrenal stress that we can take into consideration when we evaluate our training. Same with eye gauges. We know, for example, that during the eye gauge the opponent is temporarily crippled in the sense that the opponents focus changes to removing the obstruction from the eyes, but that a determined opponent can continue to fight without much hinderence once the obstruction is removed, even with slightly bothered or impaired vision. Although conclusions are always open to debate, by using evidence, we have a logical high-ground to debate from. When we use a scientific approach, we remove many of the myths or illusions that we might have about our methods.

Then, of course, we take into account that the only thing that can fully replicate combat is actual combat. Not all of the conditions will be the same in a training or competitive format. But by knowing this, we can take into account those limitations. People often make mistakes here. One might think that a technique may go exactly how you imagine it in your kata. Problem is, without objective data to back up your belief, the only thing you have to go on is your imagination, which will likely fall apart if put to the ultimate test. Similarly, one may think that a fight will be exactly "like when I boxed" or exactly like "my rape prevention class against the guy in a padded suit;" then one is unpleasently suprised if, say, multiple attackers were to present themselves in a combat situation, making the real scenario suddenly unlike the conditions one is used too.

But, I think that by taking a scientific approach, and by knowing the limitations of your training, we can reasonably train for, practice, and account for "dirty tricks," as we can for any battlefield condition.

C.


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