# Chen Xiaowang announces the creation of his 9-posture form



## sicko (Feb 1, 2013)

Yea guys, the grand master Chen Xiaowang did create a new form, mostly becose of Western people.
http://taijiquan.com.tw/cxw/cxw_news25.html

Can't wait how it looks like 

This is a quote from Facebook, I don't know where originally comes from.

GrandMaster Chen Xiaowang, a lecture in 2012: "when I started teaching Laojia and Xinjia to Europeans, they complained it's too long. So, around 1997 I created a shorter form of 38 movements. They still complained, so around 2007 I created 19 forms for them. But they are still complaining! I'm afraid of what happens with Taiji in 2017..."


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 1, 2013)

interesting...in theory? I think it's a good idea...it would be easy to remember the sequence of only 9. considering that is the length and it doesn't repeat....on the other hand if your going to study something study it...I know at my kwoon we break down the forms and teach pieces at a time. So I don't think this is a new concept, but almost seems like a way to get publicity, which is not bad thing.


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## oaktree (Feb 1, 2013)

I think it is:
1.opening 2.jin gang 3.lazy tying coat 4
Six sealing 5.single whip 6.cloud hands 7.punch 8.jin gang 9. Closing.

It is not a bad set most of these repeat about 4 times in the laojia
Form. Six sealing and cloud hands are basically silk reeling.
The punch is to help under stand fajin more. 

I guess if you only had a month to train or a seminar maybe
9 Form is good. For the rest of us working on a longer form
Would give more of the chen style characters needed such as kicks
And angling.


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## clfsean (Feb 1, 2013)

Bugger that. I'm calling cop out to save income.

There are plenty of people that make the time to study properly. I understand all to well the necessity of "siu (xiao)" sets to introduce an idea to a student before dropping the big set that fully explores that, but he's already created 2 other smaller sets, whittling down the sets. 

If they complain about the set being too long, maybe they should take up professional nose hair growing or something...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2013)

> World Xiaowang Tai Chi Chuan Association Hsinchu Branch
> 
> TAIJIQUAN.COM.TW
> 
> ...



I have great respect of Chen Xiaowang&#8217;s skill but what I find interesting about this, as well as suspect, is that he is the same guy that said the he felt Taijiquan was dead as a martial art due to the number of people doing it that know nothing of the martial arts of it as compared to those that do know the martial arts of it so he was teaching the martial arts and he is also the same guy that said you cannot understand Chen Taijiquan until you learn Laojia Erlu and that only comes after a good understanding of Laojia Yilu.

I hate to say it, and it will likely get me into trouble, but I think this is just another way to get more money out of Westerners with as little effort as possible.

My first sifu did the same exact thing with Yang style 24 form. He broke it up into for 1 and form 2 and changed the postures to make it easier and all it did was successfully take money from people while teaching horrible Taijiquan.

Sorry, I am not buying this one and I am rather disappointed too.

Sorry but in my opinion if you do not have enough patience and dedication to learn his 19 form there is always Chen Zhenglei&#8217;s 18 and if that is to long for you then you don&#8217;t have enough patience to learn Taijiquan at all


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## clfsean (Feb 1, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sorry but in my opinion if you do not have enough patience and dedication to learn his 19 form there is always Chen Zhenglei&#8217;s 18 and if that is to long for you then you don&#8217;t have enough patience to learn Taijiquan at all



Truth ...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2013)

I think these should be considered here as well



> Taijiquan is not a mysterious and bizarre magical art; neither is it the shallow skill of the body guards and street performers. Rather, it is a natural self-defense, exercise, and health system that arises from the natural world - Wu Zhiqing student of Yang Chengfu





> If one practices martial art forms without also training for power, in the end one will have achieved nothing - Wang Ji Wu





> If you train martial arts without training deep skill, you will arrive at old age with nothing - Di Guoyong


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## blindsage (Feb 1, 2013)




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## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2013)

oaktree said:


> I guess if you only had a month to train or a seminar maybe
> 9 Form is good.



my opinion: if you only had a month to train or only time for a seminar, then don't train taiji.  or any other martial art for that matter.  go do something else.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 1, 2013)

It's not whether you can condense your Taiji form into 9 moves or not. If you don't bring the leg moves back into Taiji, Taiji still has "no legs".


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## oaktree (Feb 1, 2013)

The form was created at the request of the European students
Who for some reason can't remember the steps.
Xiaowang has reduce the form again and again.
So now there is a 9 form. Was it created
To get more money I don't think so.
Chen still does seminars for the other sets and
I doubt alot of people who know other sets want
To learn this one. I think of the 9 set design for
Someone who is 1.doing a seminar 2.new to taiji 3.
Europeans. 4. Elderly that just want something besides arts
And craft. From what I have seen it mostly consist
Of the first postures from the beginning form and first
Section.  I think of it as an introduction to chen taijiquan with
The core postures and theory. But again my teacher's
Teacher is Xiaowang so some of the things he tells me
On why Xiaowang does things and on the Chinese
Chen taijiquan forums there ia more to someone
Creating forms just to take people's money. 
But come on it is still better then taoist ta chi society haha.
I do hope my post did not off rude


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2013)

1. Beginning Posture of Taijiquan (Taiji Qi Shi)
2. Pounding the Mortar (Jin Gang DaoDui)
3. Closing Posture of Taijiquan (Shou Shi) 

There....problem solved and if that is to hard

1. Beginning Posture of Taijiquan (Taiji Qi Shi)
2. Closing Posture of Taijiquan (Shou Shi)


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## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2013)

oaktree said:


> The form was created at the request of the European students
> Who for some reason can't remember the steps.
> 
> ...
> ...



If the Europeans are trying to learn this stuff largely thru seminars, that may be why they cannot remember the sets.

I do not feel that seminars are the proper way to learn any martial art.  It requires an ongoing relationship between the student and teacher, to gradually develop the skill and get it right.  A short period of time like a seminar, even if conducted all day long over a week or so, falls woefully short of that need.  The student who has learned thru seminars has learned something poorly and incompletely and will continue to practice it poorly and incompletely and it will probably gradually get worse and worse as time goes by, because they do not have that ongoing instruction and correction needed to really get it right.  The seminar then becomes a vehicle for simply collecting another form without really understanding any of it.

The proper way for a martial art to survive at a high level of quality and then propagate and grow, is for the head leader (such as Xiaowang) to run his own school where he teaches his students to a high level.  Once those students reach the level where they can become good teachers, they can teach their own students, and on down the line.  It is a natural and organic way for the method to grow.  If people like Xiaowang try to propagate the art thru travel and seminars, then it is doomed to fail.

There is one case where I see seminars as potentially good: as a method of quality control.  If he has students who have become teachers, he could travel to their schools to keep an eye on the quality of their students and make sure it is all up to par.  But that assumes his own students who are teaching are legitimately at a teacher's level.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> If the Europeans are trying to learn this stuff largely thru seminars, that may be why they cannot remember the sets.
> 
> I do not feel that seminars are the proper way to learn any martial art. It requires an ongoing relationship between the student and teacher, to gradually develop the skill and get it right. A short period of time like a seminar, even if conducted all day long over a week or so, falls woefully short of that need. The student who has learned thru seminars has learned something poorly and incompletely and will continue to practice it poorly and incompletely and it will probably gradually get worse and worse as time goes by, because they do not have that ongoing instruction and correction needed to really get it right. The seminar then becomes a vehicle for simply collecting another form without really understanding any of it.
> 
> ...



Chen Xiaowang does run his own school where he teaches his students to a high level, it is Chenjiagou. However what he teaches outside of there is not necessarily to that same level.

And I discovered another good use for seminars, review. I went to a Xingyiquan seminar and it was great and it helped me a lot but I already knew the form and the teach was not big on the typical seminar (lots of material in a short period of time) and he had purposely tried to put in only the amount he as fairly sure most people could remember. However if you did not know Xingyiquan Wuxingquan even with the little he worked on I doubt you would have gotten much out of it. Another was also a review of what was basically one application, defense against a straight punch with a form/posture/hand position that is found in a whole lot of CMA styles and that too was pretty useful,. However the 1, 2 or 3 day seminars are generally too much material in too short time with no contact with the teacher for another year. And you are correct, that will begin to degrade the form/style


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## oaktree (Feb 1, 2013)

Hey flying crane,
I agree that people should train longer with a teacher. 
There are people who come to seminars with no martial training
And are lost trying to learn laojia. I have attended seminars 
Before and at least walk away knowing something.
The 9 form set you can learn about 4 hours to learn as 
Usually for me being slow I learn about 2 steps an hour.
Opening and closing are similar so you really got 7 forms.

 I think if you are going to attend a seminar with chen xiaowang
And spend about $300 learning laojia is a waste as you will
Only remember a jumbled mess or just the first couple
Moves which is where the 9 form comes in.
In fact the 9 form is created around the firsr few moments
7 moves are the first moves in the form.

At the end of the day it is chen xiaowang choice and what was requested of him.
 As someone who studies chen taijiquan and someone
Who knows a little on the inside I can see why he did so.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2013)

I may have actually learned the 9 form.  When I was training with my first sifu, I was trying to train in Chen as part of what I was doing, and my sifu was in Feng's lineage and Chen Xiaowang would come and do the seminars on occasion.  I didn't learn it from Chen thru the seminar, I learned it from my sifu, but I believe he had learned it thru seminar or on one of his trips to Beijing.  There were so many of those forms, 9, 12, 19 (I guess, but I don't really remember exactly), 24, something in the 30s, like a 34 or 36 or something, and that was all without learning the two major long forms.  It was all just turning into this long curriculum and I think it was being presented to us like you kinda needed to learn it all.  There was lipservice to the idea that you didn't need to learn it all, but then that's what was being taught.  But it was just choreography, not really much in depth.  It became all clutter, in my opinion.

When I moved over to train with my current sifu in White Crane, I stopped trying to do anything else and I eliminated all the taiji from my practice, so I don't remember any of these anymore.  Life, and my training, is more streamlined now.


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## oaktree (Feb 1, 2013)

It seems to me people who don't train in chen taijiquan or
Under chen xiaowang line without knowing all the facts
Have made there own conclusions.

I really don't have have anything to add to this thread. Hopefully
People who do train in chen taijiquan can ask their teacher about it.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2013)

I believe the 18 form from Chen Zhenglei was also made as an introduction for Chen and Laojia Yilu but the problem was that in one seminar that spanned 3 days he taught the 18 and he first 3rd of Laojia Yilu and I seriously doubt the majority of the people in the room remembered any of it on the 4th day. He also did a seminar on Chansijin and only Chansijin and it was a couple hours long and since it had a more limited scope people got a whole lot more out of it and I am guessing more remembered that the next day than those that did his 3 day seminar.

The 9 may be the first 7 of Laojia Yilu but depending on the length of the seminar and he time in between seminars I still feel you are going to find yourself with a whole lot of errors when it comes time to actually learn Laojia Yilu. But then it really comes down to what you are trying to, or hoping to, get out of it


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## clfsean (Feb 1, 2013)

Oh I trained Chen, but not orthodox. It was Hong Junsheng's Xinjia Practical via Feng via Joseph Chen. It took me 6 months to stumble through YiLu. If I had to learn it in a seminar... I'd do something else.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2013)

For the record Feng is in the Chen lineage as a student of Chen Fake and considered senior to Xiaowang in the lineage; Feng was 18th generation Chen.

Feng and Xiaowang even wrote a book together about Chen Style Taijiquan


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## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2013)

I was getting Chen Xiaowang confused with another guy who was student of Feng, who also is named Chen but I can't remember the rest of his name. The forms I had learned were under Feng's lineage and the other Chen guy would come and do seminars for my first sifu so may have been different from the 9 form that is under discussion. My confusion.

To my knowledge, Chen Xiaowang never did seminars at my first sifu's school.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I was getting Chen Xiaowang confused with another guy who was student of Feng, who also is named Chen but I can't remember the rest of his name. The forms I had learned were under Feng's lineage and the other Chen guy would come and do seminars for my first sifu so may have been different from the 9 form that is under discussion. My confusion.
> 
> To my knowledge, Chen Xiaowang never did seminars at my first sifu's school.



Likely Chen Zhonghua, not of the Chen Taiji family but damn good


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## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Likely Chen Zhonghua, not of the Chen Taiji family but damn good



yes I think that's him, and no, he is not part of the Chen Taiji family, just has the same name is all.  And yes, he is extremely good, but I still don't believe in the seminar method of teaching a system.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Likely Chen Zhonghua, not of the Chen Taiji family but damn good





Flying Crane said:


> yes I think that's him, and no, he is not part of the Chen Taiji family, just has the same name is all. And yes, he is extremely good, but I still don't believe in the seminar method of teaching a system.



oops, nope, that's not him.  I'll do a little google-fu to figure out who I'm thinking of.


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## blindsage (Feb 2, 2013)

oaktree said:


> It seems to me people who don't train in chen taijiquan or
> Under chen xiaowang line without knowing all the facts
> Have made there own conclusions.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be confrontational oak, but there are plenty of people around who train in Chen, some under Chen Xiaowang some not.  Chen Xiaowang has been doing this a long time and a lot of people have experience with him and his teaching and methods.  Chen Xiaowang's students and their students tend to be overly enamored of him and his methods.  Others know better.  I'm not saying he's a bad guy and he's very good at what he does, but money is an evident motivater of his actions, not just spreading Chen family Taijiquan.


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## sicko (Feb 2, 2013)

We're a small group of people learning LaoIja. WE're now on half way there, after 2 years!
In fact, if you want to do quality Chen style you need time and patience. It's a hell of an art.
The 9 form it's a nice fresh thing, I just hope this wont be the only thing he'll do in the next years in the european countries.
And we have practice 3 times a week with him + free individual trainings.

I believe in Xiaowang. I just hope he didn't put all European people in the same sack and that the origin of his work will be lost to us.
I just hope that Chen style won't become lost of roots like Yang it's right now.


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## oaktree (Feb 2, 2013)

Blind sage
I am part of chen xiaowang line as my teacher is one of
His main students.  I also am on the chinese forums(only in hanzi)
 That is focused only on chen taiji. If people don't like
The form that is fine don't do it.  But calling chen xiaowang
Something he is not or bashing him by saying he only does it
For money without having all the facts is hearsay. 
Let me leave it with this,  chen xiaowang has an enormous
Responsibility being the figure head of chen village this includes
Meeting with government officials and implementation of construction
On chen village there is more to why and what he does and it really
Isn't anyones business.  That is why I made the comment
That students who study in the line like I do can ask there teacher. 
If you truly still have questions on xiaowang motives
Why not get your balls in hand and confront him your self.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2013)

I am not trying to be argumentative nor am I trying to commit Chen Blaspheme, I have meant, trained with, had lunch with and talked to Chen Zhenglei and I would train with him again if I had the chance...and had the knees for it, but the truth of the matter is that the Chen family puts everyone they teach into different categories (like just about every other sifu that comes from China). There are those in China at their schools that are Chinese and speak Chinese (some speakers are not Chinese) and there are those outside of China. The ones in China are taken much more seriously than those outside of China from the start. Now outside of China they have serious students, potential students and people that show up at their seminars and there are far fewer serious and potential outside of China as compared to in. Now the serious and potential (outside of China) also go to the seminars but there are a large number that show up that they simply will not take seriously. And some of the serious take care of their visas, housing and entertainment and they would not even bother coming here if they were not getting paid.

Now even knowing this I would train with Chen Xiaowang if I had the chance (and the knees) and it is possible that he came up with the 9 form purely for altruistic reasons or it could be for money. Time will tell and if he starts a series of 9 form seminars and makes it required then I vote money. If he teaches it where he feels it is necessary or where it is requested then it may be altruisticor somewhere in between. But currently I am leaning towards money, sorry but that is what I believe. Saw it happen first hand with my first sifu but then I also know the Chen family really does not like my first sifu, and yes, they do know who he is, but regardless this 9 form, to me, sounds an awful lot like Taiji form 1 and Taiji form 2.

If in fact it is as an intro to Laojia Yilu then why is it needed at all. Do a seminar and teach the first few forms of Laojia yilu and then end it. Next time around extend it until you get to the end. Now I also suspect that it may have to do with the impatience most have in learning taijiquan. The  I want to be a master now kind of thing and if you train laojia yilu for years a few days at a time it is likely people will stop showing up out of impatience. So you give them a short form (although I thought the 19 was pretty short) and theyre happy and keep coming to your seminars. If in fact that is it then the students of those seminars are as much to blame, maybe more so, than the sifu that is giving the seminar


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2013)

sicko said:


> I just hope that Chen style won't become lost of roots like Yang it's right now.



That is why you look for Yang Lineages that come from Fu Zhongwen, Tung Ying Chieh and a few others and not so much Yang Zhendou and Yang Jun (yup, that will get me into trouble )


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## blindsage (Feb 2, 2013)

oaktree said:


> Blind sage
> I am part of chen xiaowang line as my teacher is one of
> His main students.  I also am on the chinese forums(only in hanzi)
> That is focused only on chen taiji. If people don't like
> ...


If you're comfortable in your teacher and your system, then your comments should reflect it, criticism shouldn't bother you much.  I know Chen teachers and students in the Chen Xiaowang line.  They're good at what they do, and enjoy it.  But I see what I see, and hear even more from others who know even more than I do.  I'll stand by what I say.  And like I said before, Chen Xiaowang folks will get their panties in a bunch.


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