# Tomiki is it Daito ryu or  Aikido?



## oaktree (Oct 28, 2016)

I was talking with someone today who said that he practices Daito ryu Aikijujutsu which I also said I practiced as well, I said I was practicing from the mainline(Kondo sensei line) and he mentioned he practiced from Tomiki lines. I know that Tomiki got a menkyo from Ueshiba in Daito ryu but was Tomiki ranking people in Daito ryu or his own Aikido Shodokan or both?


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## frank raud (Oct 29, 2016)

I would say as Tomiki aikido dates from 1967, it is possible that anyone Tomiki sensei taught prior to that COULD have been ranked in Daito-ryu. However, the 1956 book by Tomiki, Judo and Aikido shows his ranks as 7th Dan Judo and 8th Dan Aikido. I see some articles on the net suggesting Tomiki aikido is a form of Daito ryu, but the technical similarities between Usheiba Aikido, Tomiki Aikido and Daito-ryu definitely show they all have the same root, no that they are the same art.


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## oaktree (Oct 29, 2016)

I visited his school, what a joke!
At first I just smiled at all his bs, 
I watched his students perform half *** aikido, but I still had hope, maybe they don't rei or have any of the formal etiquette that is found in Daito Ryu a different branch a different method I told myself, I watched the kick boxing punches and kicks and I sat there painfully remembering him saying with he practices Daito ryu. Finally his class ends and like a puppy who crapped on the paper proudly approaches me 

I told him is this really Daito Ryu aikijujutsu?
He said yes it is. I said it looks like aikido which is fine but where is the Rei, where is the kiai, where is the aiki? I then started to show him the basics of koryu on how koryu walks to the opponent, oh no he says we don't do kata, we are a no kata school do you know randori? He asks. I said yes I know randori, however, with out certain characteristics that make Daito Ryu Daito Ryu and Daito Ryu being a koryu, when you strip away those things and add boxing it ceases to be koryu and Daito Ryu. He then says how those katas don't work which I replied it doesn't matter if they work or don't work it doesn't change the fact that what you do is not what you claim. He looked complex when I tried to explain what koryu and gendai is. He went to point to his aikido certificates which I said yes they come from tomiki who ranked you in aikido please stop saying you teach Daito Ryu and telling your students you teach that, I am from the main line of Daito Ryu. I then walked out I felt sorry for his students, I felt sorry for the teacher refusing to acknowledge someone who actually trains in Daito Ryu and other koryu. As I walked out I could have said nothing but seeing the bewildered look in the students eyes I felt they deserve the truth.


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## punisher73 (Oct 29, 2016)

Tomiki Sensei was a student of Ueshiba and one of his earliest ones.  This was when Ueshiba was still calling what he did Aikibujutsu.  Based on that, I would say that Tomiki's flavor of Aikido (which is what he called it) does have more in common with Daito-Ryu than the modern incarnation of Aikido today.  This was also still when Takeda Sensei was still active with Ueshiba.

That being said, Ueshiba's Aikido is not Daito-Ryu due to it's refinements even though the roots can still  be seen.  Same with Tomiki Aikido. Different art, but you can still see the roots.


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## Chris Li (Nov 5, 2016)

Kenji Tomiki received several Daito-ryu scrolls from Morihei Ueshiba, both before and after Morihei Ueshiba's difficulties with Sokaku Takeda in 1936. I don't know of any instance in which he taught independently and called it Daito-ryu. Of course, he developed his teachings in accordance with his own ideas after the war, which caused some friction with Morihei Ueshiba and the Ueshiba family.

Is Daito-ryu a Koryu? Sort of - it's a member of the main Koryu organization in Japan, but a lot of where you stand on the issue depends on how you stand on the issue of Daito-ryu's various historical issues. Personally, I believe that it was more or less created by Sokaku Takeda and the history that qualifies it as a Koryu is more or less imaginary. That's becoming more clear as time goes on and more information emerges. It doesn't affect Takeda's abilities or achievements, of course.

Best,

Chris


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## JP3 (Nov 26, 2016)

Having been practicing Tomiki aikido for ~20 now... and having taken seminars with/from a few Daito guys of decent rank and good teaching ability, I can say to Oak Tree that no, Tomiki isn't Daito, in much the same way that BJJ is not judo.  Apples and oranges are both fruit, but taste and feel very different.  Metaphor is way to simplistic to convey it.  Also, in my own research on Kenji Tomiki, I'd say his very early background in judo with Jigoro Kano and his kendo practice most likely "template" him more than the spin-off daito which he was most assuredly taking from Ueshiba. But still, it's brances of the same tree imo...


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## roadtoad2 (Dec 6, 2016)

Osensei gave me a black belt in a personal interview in  jan 1966.
I saw Tomiki in 1967, he said he was quitting Aikido, but was now under Sato in Aikijitsu


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## Chris Li (Dec 6, 2016)

roadtoad2 said:


> Osensei gave me a black belt in a personal interview in  jan 1966.
> I saw Tomiki in 1967, he said he was quitting Aikido, but was now under Sato in Aikijitsu



Kinbei Sato?

Tomiki opened the Shodokan dojo in 1967, so perhaps he meant the Aikikai, not Aikido.

Best,

Chris


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## oaktree (Dec 6, 2016)

Maybe he meant tadayuki Sato study under Tomiki or saito


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## Chris Li (Dec 6, 2016)

oaktree said:


> Maybe he meant tadayuki Sato study under Tomiki or saito



I believe that Tadayuki Sato didn't meet Tomiki Kenji until some time after 1967 (he was born in 1957 and met Tomiki in junior high school). Also, the sentence doesn't make sense that way, since the OP seems to be saying that Tomiki was training under someone named Sato.

Kinbei Sato would be unlikely too, IMO, but it popped into my head as a Daito-ryu connection.

Three points - Japanese people are often non-specific in their language, so I could easily imagine saying that he was "quitting Aikido" while meaning that he was severing his connections with the Aikikai. Secondly, at the time Morihei Ueshiba was still alive, so Aikido was still very much "Morihei Ueshiba" in many people's minds - so "quitting Aikido" could easily mean "cutting ties with Morihei Ueshiba". Lastly, Tomiki was on the instructional staff of Aikikai Hombu Dojo (although he only taught occasionally after the war), so I could easily envision "quitting" to mean "officially resigning" his position at Hombu.

None of those three possibilities would mean that he was actually leaving for another art.

Best,

Chris


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## frank raud (Dec 7, 2016)

roadtoad2 said:


> Osensei gave me a black belt in a personal interview in  jan 1966.
> I saw Tomiki in 1967, he said he was quitting Aikido, but was now under Sato in Aikijitsu


Osensei gave you a black belt? Some details, please.


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