# Shorin Ji Ryu



## tshadowchaser (Jan 18, 2002)

Does anyone out there have any knowledge of a systenm called Shorin Ji Ryu kempo


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## arnisador (Jan 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *Does anyone out there have any knowledge of a systenm called Shorin Ji Ryu kempo *



I have heard of shorinji-ryu kempo--I believe Mr. Hartman knows a practitioner in Buffalo though I may be mistaken--and I think it was featured in a James Bond film. I have also seen references to Shorinji-Ryu Karatedo and I don't know if that's another term for the same thing or no. I believe the kempo system is unlike karate and is more jujitsu-like, and heavily influenced by Chinese arts, but perhaps someone transliterated it as karate for name recognition.

A quick web search indicates that the karate and kempo systems are indeed different:
http://village.infoweb.ne.jp/~fwip4150/Kempo/index.htm
http://www.uga.edu/karatedo/


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2002)

You will also find info. on shorinji kempo here, at the E-Budo discussion forum.

I am assuming this is the system you mean--the "ryu" does not usually appear in its name.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 21, 2002)

Not sure if it is the same system or not but will follow up on your lead. Thanks


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## Chiduce (Jan 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *Does anyone out there have any knowledge of a systenm called Shorin Ji Ryu kempo *


      The Shorinji Ryu Kempo System gives credit to  it's Japanese Founder; Michiomi Nakano or Doshin So. The system is a japanese version of Shaolin Quan, which was founded in 1947. Nakano supposedly crosses paths with the founder of Jukendo. He also meets Wei Lao Cho whom taught him the internal style of Giwamon Kempo.  In 1936 Nakano becomes successor of Wai Lao whom was also known as Bunta and received his new name of Doshin So. He then becomes a student of Okuyama Densei, whom was the founder of Hakko Aiki Jutsu or Hakko Ryu Jujutsu. As far as the shaolin lineage of the okinawan origin; Shorinji Ryu Kempo can be traced back to Bushi Matsumura  and Karate Sakugawa! Bushi taught many students including his family member Nabe Matsumura. The lineage splits again here and Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Ryu is kept in the family! Nabe teaches is nephew Hohan Soken and O Sensei teaches Fusei Kise whom is a Shorinji Ryu practitioner whom reverts entirely to Grandmaster Soken's Hakkutsuru Ryu! Finally we can at least see that Shorinji Ryu Kempo is of Shuri Te origin with Shaolin Temple influence  and possibly other internal aspects of the system. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## arnisador (Jan 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> *the internal style of Giwamon Kempo*



What is the translation of this? Is it a style we'd recognize?


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## Chiduce (Jan 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> What is the translation of this? Is it a style we'd recognize? *


 Giwamon or Yi Ho Chuan! It is the Norhern Shaolin Giwamon Fist or Kita Shorin Giwamon Ken. The School Of The Northern Shaolin Giwamon Fist! Yi Ho Chuan is the The Northern Shaolin School Of Thought Of Righteousness And Harmony! Thus, the Giwamon translates as Yi Ho Chuan School Of Shaolin. So, Yi = Righteous + Ho = Harmonious + Chuan = Style, Fist Etc,. Therefore Shorinji Ryu Kempo  Is From The Northern Shaolin  Righteous Harmonious or Harmony School Or Fist Style! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 26, 2002)

Excellent post.
It (they) relate what I had been told or closely so. I had just never recieved coformation on some of the facts. 
It also makes a connection with some otherthings I had questions about but I can now see where the connecting point was. 
Again thank to all for help on this question
Shadow


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 25, 2003)

Gassho.
We do not use the term "ryu" as a suffix in Shorinji Kempo, as the art is not a form of karate, but unique unto itself. There is a Shorin-ryu Karatedo (note: no "ji" or "kempo" in the name), which originated in Okinawa.
Shorinji Kempo is one Japanese man's codification of mostly Chinese arts. Ther terminology is Japanese, and we wear dogi when training. Our headquarters is in Shikoku.
Now for my soapbox rant:
I'd prefer it if non-Shorinji Kenshi didn't try to dispense "information" about Shorinji Kempo; most times, you are wrong. For details about Shorinji Kempo, ask a Shorinji Kenshi, like me.
Thank you.
Kesshu.
:soapbox:


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> *The Shorinji Ryu Kempo System gives credit to  it's Japanese Founder; Michiomi Nakano or Doshin So. The system is a japanese version of Shaolin Quan, which was founded in 1947. Nakano supposedly crosses paths with the founder of Jukendo. He also meets Wei Lao Cho whom taught him the internal style of Giwamon Kempo.  In 1936 Nakano becomes successor of Wai Lao whom was also known as Bunta and received his new name of Doshin So. He then becomes a student of Okuyama Densei, whom was the founder of Hakko Aiki Jutsu or Hakko Ryu Jujutsu. As far as the shaolin lineage of the okinawan origin; Shorinji Ryu Kempo can be traced back to Bushi Matsumura  and Karate Sakugawa! Bushi taught many students including his family member Nabe Matsumura. The lineage splits again here and Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Ryu is kept in the family! Nabe teaches is nephew Hohan Soken and O Sensei teaches Fusei Kise whom is a Shorinji Ryu practitioner whom reverts entirely to Grandmaster Soken's Hakkutsuru Ryu! Finally we can at least see that Shorinji Ryu Kempo is of Shuri Te origin with Shaolin Temple influence  and possibly other internal aspects of the system. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *


Gassho.
This second part is completely wrong, and we aren't called Shorinji Ryu Kempo; our name is Shorinji Kempo, or Nippon Shorinji Kempo. There is no "lineage" in the iemoto sense, and nobody called Matsumura had anything to do with the establishment of Shorinji Kempo.
Kesshu.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 25, 2003)

Because of your staeing that there is no "RYU" in the name could there be 2 systems with very simular names maybe?


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *Because of your staeing that there is no "RYU" in the name could there be 2 systems with very simular names maybe? *


That was my exact point. If there's "ryu" in the name, it's not Nippon Shorinji Kempo as founded by So Doshin.
Best,


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## arnisador (Aug 27, 2003)

What's a _Kenshi _? Ah--answer seen here.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 27, 2003)

interesting that one of the ars that made/make up
 shorin ji kempo  is ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do 
 can you tell me anything about this art?


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *interesting that one of the ars that made/make up
> shorin ji kempo  is ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do
> can you tell me anything about this art? *


Where did you hear that? Shorinji Kempo is totally separate from Karate.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 27, 2003)

this thread
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9870
the reply

kenmpoka
Member
Martial Talk 
Green Belt 


Registered: May 2002
Last Visited : 08-27-2003 

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 131


 Re: What arts are in Shorinji Kempo? 
quote: Originally posted by arnisador 
I always thought it was comprised of a single Chinese art viewed through a Japanese lens, sort of like Uechi-ryu's relation to Pangainoon, but from posts here it sounds like it encompasses several arts?  
Hey Arnisador,
To answer your question you need to look at the Founder's MA background. So Doshin's background was in HakkoRyu Jujutsu, ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do and Chinese Gong Fu. All these are apparent in Shorinji Kempo's Goho and Juho syllabus.

Salute,


__________________
Peter Teymouraz
Martial Arts Institute


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 27, 2003)

To my knowledge, that's not accurate. Kaiso studied Chinese kung fu, and judo from his grandfather. It would have been difficult for him to study karate in China, where he lived from the age of 11.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *. . .
> Ther terminology is Japanese,
> . . .
> *



Did you mean *There* ?


Does this mean your Orthoepy police membership is to be removed? 

Or does this mean you make mistakes like I and others do?


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## arnisador (Aug 28, 2003)

He was talking about pervasive, systematic, repeated mistakes--not one-off typos. Those are accidents.


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## kenmpoka (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *To my knowledge, that's not accurate. Kaiso studied Chinese kung fu, and judo from his grandfather. It would have been difficult for him to study karate in China, where he lived from the age of 11. *


 Tony,
Respectfully, you need to do a bit of research on this one. The back ground of Hakko Ryu or Daito Ryu is quit clear in Shorinji Kempo. Kaiso Hisataka the founder of ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan also resided in China. Kaiso Hisataka was stationed in Beijing, via Kowa and Tienjin. I am not sure where these two got together, in China or Japan but their history is documented. You can contact Shihan Masayuki Hisataka (Kori's son) in Japan. I believe the Honbu Dojo is at the waseda area of Tokyo's Shinjuku ward.

Good luck,


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## kenmpoka (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *interesting that one of the ars that made/make up
> shorin ji kempo  is ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do
> can you tell me anything about this art? *


tshadowchaser,

ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do is an amalgamation of it Founder's (Kori Hisataka) Martial studies in Ryukyu karate jutsu, Kudaka Jima Shishi-ryu Bojutsu, as well as the family style Kudaka-ryu Karate-Do (through his father and grandfather). Kaiso Hisataka also studied Saijutsu, Yari(spear), sumo, judo (4 Dan from kodokan), and various Chinese Kempo Arts (such as Hakkyoku Kempo, and Shaolin Chaun Fa).

Salute,


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *He was talking about pervasive, systematic, repeated mistakes--not one-off typos. Those are accidents. *



Arnisador,

I agree, yet I thought some humor was in order.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *Tony,
> Respectfully, you need to do a bit of research on this one. The back ground of Hakko Ryu or Daito Ryu is quit clear in Shorinji Kempo. Kaiso Hisataka the founder of ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan also resided in China. Kaiso Hisataka was stationed in Beijing, via Kowa and Tienjin. I am not sure where these two got together, in China or Japan but their history is documented. You can contact Shihan Masayuki Hisataka (Kori's son) in Japan. I believe the Honbu Dojo is at the waseda area of Tokyo's Shinjuku ward.
> 
> Good luck, *


Well, there you're completely wrong. Kaiso had no contact with any such person while in China. I just looked it up in the Kaiso Monogatari.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Arnisador,
> 
> I agree, yet I thought some humor was in order.  *


Pity it wasn't funny.
You should write speeches for the president...


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## kenmpoka (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Well, there you're completely wrong. Kaiso had no contact with any such person while in China. I just looked it up in the Kaiso Monogatari. *


 Tony,
Please read my post again and if you will follow the contact informtion. Then come to the table and discredit someone with   a lot more knowledge and background than yourself. 

Respectfully,


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 28, 2003)

do you know if ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do  was taught on the island of Oakinawa and if so around what years


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## kenmpoka (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *do you know if ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Karate-Do  was taught on the island of Oakinawa and if so around what years *


Kori Hisataka established his first Dojo in 1945 upon returning to Japan under the name of ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan in Kumaoto prefecture in Kyushu. During the next few years he traveled to Okinawa on a few occasions. On one of these trips he was involved in the establishment of All Okinawa Karate-Do Federation where Chosin Chibana became the first president and Hisataka undertook the position of Technical Director.  Some times after 1953, he moved his family to Tokyo, re-establishing his Dojo in Shimo-Kitazawa, Setagaya ward. In 1955 the Hombu was moved to Waseda area.

Hisataka's first teacher as he calls it in the system of ShorinjiRyu (Shorin) was Ankoh Asato. His other major influence was Chotoku Kyan. He also recieved instruction from his father and Grandfather in the family style  Kudaka-Ryu Karate-Do. He undertook the study of Kobudo with Sanda Kanagusuku of uhuchuku-Den and in the Kudaka Jima shishiryu bojutsu.

In 1930, Hisataka wih Kyan and Ryosei Kuwa, toured Taiwan and demonstrated Okinawan Karate. Kyan returned to Okinawa, Kuwae stayed in Taiwan, and Hisataka went to China. Starting from Fukien province. There he studied the Fukien Tenbin Bo. Following Fukien he continued to travel throughout China training in different systems of Chuan Fa (shorinji Kempo), Hakkyoken Kempo, as well as Chinese medicine. In 1932, he visited Manchuria where he gave a demonstration of Kusanku  kata and shishiryu bo. This was done in front of the Emperor of Manchuria following the boxer rebellion where the leading chinese martial artists were killed. His travels also took him to Russia and Afganistan.

Upon returning to Okinawa, he commenced a tour of Japan with Chotoku Kyan, where they visited different Kendo and Judo Dojo and competed against their champions successfully. While in Japan he studied Judo at Kodokan under Sanpo Toku and received his Yondan.

During the WWII, he was stationed in Manchuria along the Manchurian railway.
He and his family were initially based in Kowa, near the border China and Mongolia. Later moved to the cities of Cho Kakko, Bakudashu, Sarachi. In Sarachi he met Minoru Mochizuki, Kudan(one of the most senior MA in Japan- Direct student of Jigoro Kano And Morihei Ueshiba). They regularly trained and taught together at Mochizuki's Budokan. At this time Hisataka devised a system called Happo Ken based on Kusanku kata, Chuan fa and Hakkyokuken. This was done to pass as much as possible to Mochizuki Sensei in a short time available.

That's all for now. I hope that I answered your question!

Salute,


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 28, 2003)

Thank you


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *Tony,
> Please read my post again and if you will follow the contact informtion. Then come to the table and discredit someone with   a lot more knowledge and background than yourself.
> 
> Respectfully, *


What do you mean? I'm the Shorinji Kenshi here, and I think I know more about my art than you do.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 28, 2003)

I am enjoying the information being posted DO NOT spoil it with  " I know more than you do" war
Please both of you keep posting informative articles
 Now would either of you care to post the names of your basic forms
so we can see if they are the same


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *I am enjoying the information being posted DO NOT spoil it with  " I know more than you do" war
> Please both of you keep posting informative articles
> Now would either of you care to post the names of your basic forms
> so we can see if they are the same *


I said I know more about Shorinji Kempo; but that's obvious, don't you think? I'm the only Shorinji Kenshi on the boards.
Basic kata:
Tenchiken
Giwaken
Byakurenken


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## kenmpoka (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *What do you mean? I'm the Shorinji Kenshi here, and I think I know more about my art than you do. *


 Kenshi Tony,

I don't usually get into this kind of bickering, but you seem to have a knack to bring it out of people. 

You might think my friend that you know more about Shorinji Kempo, but I invite you to do more research out side the tight box you're in and to take off your blinders. 

According to your profile you are a Sandan. You study a system that is based on a three Kyu system prior to Shodan. So two to three years top to shodan and then another 5 to 7 to Sandan. How am I doing so far. So to add all this if you have been at this art continuously, you have been studying no more than 10 years. Well  I hate to surprise you but I got two more decades on you buddy. Two systems of Kenpo/Kempo, a senior ranking in Karate-Do (Shotokan) plus detail study of Various systems of Okinawan and Japanese Karate/Kobudo through kata, Bunkai, Oyo, and Kakushi.

For the last eight years I have been a personal student/teacher of Obata Toshishiro Kaiso in the arts of Shinkendo, Toyama Ryu, Aikido and Jujutsu.
Additionally, I do train with couple of   Shorinji Kenshi in LA, and there is nothing they do that I have not seen and done exactly or a variation of.

I have also trained at Hoitsugan Dojo of the late Nakayama sensei in your beloved Japan. 

So Mr. Kehoe, if you got something to share wih us please do so, otherwise....

Remember it is not what you say but how you say it. Courtesy and respect go a long way.

Got to go teach, I'll catch you later.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *Kenshi Tony,
> 
> I don't usually get into this kind of bickering, but you seem to have a knack to bring it out of people.
> ...


Wrong; I've been a kenshi for 19 years this year.
My point, which is worth reiterating, is that I am the only Shorinji Kenshi on the boards, so it is obvious I know more about Shorinji Kempo than anyone else here; similarly, an Aikidoka will know more about Aikido. You are not a Shorinuji Kenshi, are you? Quite frankly, I don't beleive you when you say you "train with Shorinji Kenshi". Do you mean to say that you are signed up to train formally? Becasue if so, you can't train in any other style; the reules prohibit it. You should know this. If, however, you mean that you meet informally with a couple of Shorinji Kenshi, then that is another matter, but your experience of Shorinji Kempo will be clearly limited.
What is the meaning of bu and the essence of budo?


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## kenmpoka (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *I am enjoying the information being posted DO NOT spoil it with  " I know more than you do" war
> Please both of you keep posting informative articles
> Now would either of you care to post the names of your basic forms
> so we can see if they are the same *


 I am not a ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Practitioner but I have studied and teach some the variations of their Kata. Their kata catalog goes as follow: 

Sanchin

Naihanchin (not the usual tekki version, but more of the chinese Variant) with different enbusen.

Nijushiho (based on the tomari version, very different from Shito ryu and Shotokan versions)

Heian Shodan(pinan Ichi)
Heian Yondan

Sankakutobi (Developed by the founder's son, Masayuki Hisataka)

Happiken (Created by the founder's son)

Koshiki Naihanchin (mainstream tekki with more kicks (mae-geri) added by Masayuki)

Seisan (pretty much in line with Hangetsu)

Bassai (an interesting variation closer to seibukan's version)

And Chinto, Sochin,Jion, Kosokun (kusoku).

The system is rich in yakusoku Kumite(two man set forms). Bogu (padded) full contact sparring, and self defense techniques based on Judo/JuJutsu. 

Salute,


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *I am not a ShorinjiRyu Kenkokan Practitioner but I have studied and teach some the variations of their Kata. *


Neither am I; I'm a Shorinji Kenshi.


> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *Their kata catalog goes as follow:
> 
> Sanchin
> ...


These are completely different from Shorinji Kempo; they are Karate kata.
There used to be a great website that showed a video of Tenchiken kata; I'll see if I can find it again and post a link here.


> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *The system is rich in yakusoku Kumite(two man set forms). Bogu (padded) full contact sparring, and self defense techniques based on Judo/JuJutsu.  *


We wear do, mitts, and helmets for full contact.
Here's a funny story. When I took sandan, it was midsummer and really hot and humid hear in Tokyo, so with the full gear on, I was sweating profusely, which caused my helmet to slip down over my eyes, so I couldn't see anything. I heard my opponent move, and made uraken, and hit him bang on the temple--and the examiner called the point! Sheer luck!


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## arnisador (Aug 28, 2003)

There's a reference here to Shorinji Karate Do.


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## kenmpoka (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Wrong; I've been a kenshi for 19 years this year.
> My point, which is worth reiterating, is that I am the only Shorinji Kenshi on the boards, so it is obvious I know more about Shorinji Kempo than anyone else here; similarly, an Aikidoka will know more about Aikido. You are not a Shorinuji Kenshi, are you? Quite frankly, I don't beleive you when you say you "train with Shorinji Kenshi". Do you mean to say that you are signed up to train formally? Becasue if so, you can't train in any other style; the reules prohibit it. You should know this. If, however, you mean that you meet informally with a couple of Shorinji Kenshi, then that is another matter, but your experience of Shorinji Kempo will be clearly limited.
> What is the meaning of bu and the essence of budo? *


 Well I congratulate you on your 19 years. I just hope you did not take a sabbatical for 10 of those years.LOL

Do I know your system verbatim? No.
Do I have more than an idea what you folks do? Absolutely yes.
Am I formally signed up to train? No. Do you think I need to?

Btw I did do some checking on you, and you seem to have a reputation of being a "hot head" among your own as well!!!

I don't mean to be rude to you, but like I said you need to cool it here a bit otherwise you'll get chewed up by everyone. I don't mind learning a thing or two from you. So, behave Kenshi. 

"Nana korobi yaoki, Jinsei wa kore karada"

Salute,

P.S. The shorinji Kenkokan syllabus post was not meant for you and I am aware of the karate Kata and was not comparing to Shorinji Kempo. Btw, Did you contact Shihan Masayuki Hisataka? He is in your neck of woods. Do you ever wonder where the koshiki style of kumite in your system comes from?


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *Do I have more than an idea what you folks do? Absolutely yes. *


No, you don't.


> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *Am I formally signed up to train? No. Do you think I need to?*


Yes, absolutely. Just like you need to be a lawyer to understand the law, or a doctor to understand medicine, you need to be a Kenshi to understand Shorinji Kempo.


> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *Btw I did do some checking on you, and you seem to have a reputation of being a "hot head" among your own as well!!! *


So what? It doesn't make me wrong.
BTW, where did you do the "checking"?


> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *I don't mean to be rude to you, but like I said you need to cool it here a bit otherwise you'll get chewed up by everyone. I don't mind learning a thing or two from you. So, behave Kenshi. *


Then don't try to tell me my art.


> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> * "Nana korobi yaoki, Jinsei wa kore karada"*


Shinjitsu no mikata to suru koto, sore koso ore no jinsei da.


> _Originally posted by kenmpoka _
> *P.S. The shorinji Kenkokan syllabus post was not meant for you and I am aware of the karate Kata and was not comparing to Shorinji Kempo. Btw, Did you contact Shihan Masayuki Hisataka? He is in your neck of woods. Do you ever wonder where the koshiki style of kumite in your system comes from? *


We don't have what you arereferring to as "kumite" in Shorinji Kempo; do you mean randori?


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## Seig (Aug 29, 2003)

Tony, 
Some interesting information there, but do you not feel your  rants are a bit rude?  
Seig
-Just Curious-


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Tony,
> Some interesting information there, but do you not feel your  rants are a bit rude?
> Seig
> -Just Curious- *


No. Why do people who know nothing aboutthe subject want to argue with those who are qualified to have an opinion? I find that very galling. Like Richard Dawkins said:


> I am sometimes accused of arrogant intolerance in my treatment of creationists. Of course arrogance is an unpleasant characteristic, and I should hate to be thought arrogant in a general way. But there are limits! To get some idea of what it is like being a professional student of evolution, asked to have a serious debate with creationists, the following comparison is a fair one. Imagine yourself a classical scholar who has spent a lifetime studying Roman history in all its rich detail. Now somebody comes along, with a degree in marine engineering or mediaeval musicology, and tries to argue that the Romans never existed. Wouldn't you find it hard to suppress your impatience? And mightn't it look a bit like arrogance?


How can a man who has never been a Shorinji Kenshi think he has something to teach me, when I've been a Shorinji Kenshi for 19 years this November? Does he disagree with his doctor about medical advice? His lawyer about legal advice? I've dedicated half my life to this art. I think he should accept that I know what I'm talking about.
Now, why don't you ask him the same question?


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## arnisador (Aug 29, 2003)

Everyone: Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Nightingale (Aug 29, 2003)

Kimpatsu-

there is a difference between arguing and questioning.  So far, the only person I've seen arguing here is you.

You have no real idea of what anyone else on this board knows unless you know them personally.  

You don't need to be a doctor to have a fundamental understanding of how your body works, you don't need to be a lawyer to have an understanding of your rights.  You don't need to be a lifelong TKD student to have more than an idea of what TKD's all about... you just need to observe it enough and be exposed to it.  Same deal with any other martial art.... you don't have to be a lifelong student to have an understanding of what its all about.

if you want to be here to answer questions, fine.... but please, you've been asked repeatedly to lose the attitude.   There is a fine line between acceptable pride in your own accomplishments, knowledge and talent, and ego and attitude taken too far... please pause a moment, re-read what others here have written to you, and evaluate which side of the line you are currently standing on.

-Nightingale

ps... are the basic motions in shorinji kenpo more linear, circular, or both?


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Pity it wasn't funny.
> You should write speeches for the president...  *




**** Wonders if Tony writes speaches for politicians ****

Gee Tony,

I just replied like you did once or twice. Since you thought it was funny elsewhere I thought you like it, and smile.

If I have insulted or hurt you, I did not mean too.

**** Wonders if Tony was trying to be funny or insulting on his replies. ****

Enjoy


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *You have no real idea of what anyone else on this board knows unless you know them personally.   *


Wrong, I can evaluate what they know by the accuracy of their statements.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *You don't need to be a doctor to have a fundamental understanding of how your body works, you don't need to be a lawyer to have an understanding of your rights.  You don't need to be a lifelong TKD student to have more than an idea of what TKD's all about... you just need to observe it enough and be exposed to it.  Same deal with any other martial art.... you don't have to be a lifelong student to have an understanding of what its all about.*


Wrong again. If you think you understand Shorinji Kempo, answer the following:
What is the meaning of bu and the essence of budo?
What is the difference between tsuki ten san and keri ten san?
What is the difference between harai uke geri and gedan gaeshi?
If you can't answer these questions, how can you presume to know anything about Shorinji Kempo?
Are you seriously telling me that you argue with your doctor's medical advice? Or your lawyers legal advice? They can't make you do what they say, but their expert opinion is in your best interest. The notion that you know as much as they do--that you are their equal in this matter-is extremely arrogant. Same if you really think you know more than I do about Shorinji Kempo.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *if you want to be here to answer questions, fine.... but please, you've been asked repeatedly to lose the attitude.   There is a fine line between acceptable pride in your own accomplishments, knowledge and talent, and ego and attitude taken too far... please pause a moment, re-read what others here have written to you, and evaluate which side of the line you are currently standing on. *


The side of justice and truth. Any non-Kenshi who thinks they "understand" Shorinji Kempo is talking out of the wrong side of their anatomy.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *are the basic motions in shorinji kenpo more linear, circular, or both? *


Both. For example, giwaken movements are linear (forwards and back), and tenchiken movements are circular (chidori ashi, etc.)


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Wonders if Tony was trying to be funny or insulting on his replies. *


 Funny; hence the smilies.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Funny; hence the smilies.  *



Side Note Tony, 

So why is it funny for you and not for me?

Was it the delivery?

Was it funny when you were not the subject?

You see Tony, you might have something to offer people and this board. Yet, I am trying to get an understanding of you nad your internet personality.  :asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 29, 2003)

I might note that physicians and lawyers give _opinions_ and frequently contradict one another.

But, let's not argue about arguing!


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *an understanding of you nad your internet personality.  :asian: *


"You nad your... personality"?


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I might note that physicians and lawyers give opinions and frequently contradict one another.*


But they are _expert_ opinions, which carry more weight than those of lay people. Similarly, a Shorinji Kenshi will know more about Shorinji Kempo than a non-Kenshi.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 29, 2003)

ok....then I have a simple solution.

Lets get more Kenshi over here...any I'm not talking about that Himura guy.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *ok....then I have a simple solution.
> 
> Lets get more Kenshi over here...any I'm not talking about that Himura guy.   *


I shall enter into a recruitment drive immediately.


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## Nightingale (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Wrong, I can evaluate what they know by the accuracy of their statements.
> *


*

perhaps... and perhaps not... for all you know, there could be a shorinji kenpo grand master on here who finds it amusing to quiz you... that's the beauty of the internet... you really don't know who I am, and I really don't know who you are.  You just have to trust that I present myself honestly... get it?




			Wrong again. If you think you understand Shorinji Kempo, answer the following:
What is the meaning of bu and the essence of budo?
What is the difference between tsuki ten san and keri ten san?
What is the difference between harai uke geri and gedan gaeshi?
If you can't answer these questions, how can you presume to know anything about Shorinji Kempo?
		
Click to expand...


I've never presumed to know anything about shorinji kempo other than what you've presented here, which is, frankly, a lot of attitude and very little information.




			Are you seriously telling me that you argue with your doctor's medical advice?
		
Click to expand...


Damn straight I'll argue with my doctor.  Nobody knows how my body feels better than me, because I'm inside it.  For example:  I've been having heartburn off and on for a few years.  Finally told my doc about it.  She referred me to a gastroenterologist.  The GE told me that I was too young to have reflux, and that it was probably stress or panic attacks.  BULL!  After going several rounds with this fool, I changed doctors, and the new GE ran a test that showed through irrefutable evidence on the x-ray film that it was reflux all along.... if I'd believed the first doctor, I'd be on prozac instead of prilosec, and there's a BIG difference between the two.  You can't just accept what people say without questioning and verifying.  That's why we have brains.  I like to use mine.




			Or your lawyers legal advice?
		
Click to expand...


I always get a second opinion. Most law offices will do a free consult.




			They can't make you do what they say, but their expert opinion is in your best interest.
		
Click to expand...


um... no... you see, most of the time, THEIR best interest happens to allign with YOUR best interest... but not all the time.  There are many doctors who will order unnecessary tests to get insurance money, or not order enough tests to get insurance money.  There are lawyers who will encourage you to sue someone when you don't have a chance of winning, because they get paid either way... and there are also many good ones out there too... the trick is finding them.




			The notion that you know as much as they do--that you are their equal in this matter-is extremely arrogant. Same if you really think you know more than I do about Shorinji Kempo.
		
Click to expand...


Again, I've never claimed to know ANYTHING about shorinji kempo.   All I've claimed (and I know this for FACT) is that your attitude is putting people off, and that I'm not the only one saying that.




			For example, giwaken movements are linear (forwards and back), and tenchiken movements are circular (chidori ashi, etc.)
		
Click to expand...

*
Could you say this last phrase in English instead of half Japanese?  I can read your words but have no clue what they mean, because I don't speak Japanese.  If you must use the Japanese words, please translate them so I can understand. What do giwaken, tenchiken, chidori, and ashi mean?


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## KenpoTess (Aug 29, 2003)

*thinking outloud.. Doctors  just hang their license(s) on their wall.. I really want to see where they placed in their class and what their board scores were.. just because they have M.D. after their name.. doesn't mean they are the cream of the crop.. *

Lawyers too for that matter.

Just because someone has a title and many years under their belt.. does not make them a master of what they do.. I've been on this earth a long while.. and I learn things from people half my age on a daily basis..  Everyone has  something to offer.. if we can only  step aside from ourselves to listen and understand..

Tess


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *perhaps... and perhaps not... for all you know, there could be a shorinji kenpo grand master on here who finds it amusing to quiz you... that's the beauty of the internet... you really don't know who I am, and I really don't know who you are.  You just have to trust that I present myself honestly... get it? *


Doubtful, or you would agree with me over Shorinji Kempo-related issues. But I'll trust that you are exactly who you say you are.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I've never presumed to know anything about shorinji kempo other than what you've presented here, which is, frankly, a lot of attitude and very little information. *


If you actually bothered to ask questions rather than presume to lecture me on what Shorinji Kempo is and isn't, I'll happily answer them. But it's incumbent on you to ask the questions with a sense of humility, so I can answer them. You don't want to learn; you're trying to teach me about Shorinji Kempo and Budo, which is plain daft.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Damn straight I'll argue with my doctor.  Nobody knows how my body feels better than me, because I'm inside it.  For example:  I've been having heartburn off and on for a few years.  Finally told my doc about it.  She referred me to a gastroenterologist.  The GE told me that I was too young to have reflux, and that it was probably stress or panic attacks.  BULL!  After going several rounds with this fool, I changed doctors, and the new GE ran a test that showed through irrefutable evidence on the x-ray film that it was reflux all along.... if I'd believed the first doctor, I'd be on prozac instead of prilosec, and there's a BIG difference between the two.  You can't just accept what people say without questioning and verifying.  That's why we have brains.  I like to use mine. *


You should use your brain properly. Assuming you know your body better than your doctor is plain daft. Your doc has been to medical school, you haven't. Just because you met one bad doctor doesn't invalidate the general argument that the medical profession knows more about the human body than you do. Assuming you do is very arrogant. But then, you think you know more about Shorinji Kempo than I do.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I always get a second opinion. Most law offices will do a free consult.*


And again, that's expert opinion, which you don't have. They may disagree amongst each other, but two lawyers who disagree will still know more than you.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *um... no... you see, most of the time, THEIR best interest happens to allign with YOUR best interest... but not all the time.  There are many doctors who will order unnecessary tests to get insurance money, or not order enough tests to get insurance money.  There are lawyers who will encourage you to sue someone when you don't have a chance of winning, because they get paid either way... and there are also many good ones out there too... the trick is finding them. *


What insurance money? We have a national health service. The fact remains, doctors and lawyers who try to cheat you in that way are breaking the law. Such unethical practices are identified as such.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Again, I've never claimed to know ANYTHING about shorinji kempo.   All I've claimed (and I know this for FACT) is that your attitude is putting people off, and that I'm not the only one saying that.*


But your previous posts flatly contradict this, with you trying to tell me what Shorinji Kempo is! If people want to know about Shorinji Kempo, they can ask, but don't try to TELL me anything about an art of which you know nothing.


> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Could you say this last phrase in English instead of half Japanese?  I can read your words but have no clue what they mean, because I don't speak Japanese.  If you must use the Japanese words, please translate them so I can understand. What do giwaken, tenchiken, chidori, and ashi mean? *


My point exactly; how can you presume to tell me about Shorinji Kempo when you don't even know the terminology?


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## Nightingale (Aug 29, 2003)

I've never tried to tell you ANYTHING about Shorinji Kenpo.  I have no clue what you're talking about!


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KenpoTess _
> **thinking outloud.. Doctors  just hang their license(s) on their wall.. I really want to see where they placed in their class and what their board scores were.. just because they have M.D. after their name.. doesn't mean they are the cream of the crop.. *
> 
> Lawyers too for that matter.
> ...


A doctor will still know more about medicine than you do, Tess, and a lawyer more about the law. Similarly, a Shorinji Kenshi knows more about Shorinji Kempo.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *A doctor will still know more about medicine than you do, Tess, and a lawyer more about the law. Similarly, a Shorinji Kenshi knows more about Shorinji Kempo. *




I have no interest in comparing what I know and what you know Tony.. I was posting in a public forum..


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I've never tried to tell you ANYTHING about Shorinji Kenpo.  I have no clue what you're talking about! *


Then why do you keep harrassing me?


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## Nightingale (Aug 29, 2003)

all I've done is ask a few questions (that I still haven't gotten straight answers to).


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *all I've done is ask a few questions (that I still haven't gotten straight answers to). *


 What questions? You've defneded people who disagree with me, and made statements about misicology as if they were relevant to budo.
Let's start over. List your questions here, and numbering them would be a help, as I'll then answer your questions in the same format.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 29, 2003)

Folks, I see tempers flaring and  I think its time to take a step back n cool off.

Couple of things:

1- We're -way- off topic here.

2- We are dealing with differences in philosophy, and experience.

Kimpatsu is a traditional student of the Japanese arts.  Both KenpoTess and nightingale8472 are students of an American art.  The Japanese arts have a reputation of being stricter, and more conservative, whereas the American arts are more relaxed and laid back.  Its a culture class. (As an example, in some Asian arts being hit with a stick by the instructor to aid your focus is common.  In the US, at the least a lawsuit would arise. Both are right for where they are.)

I recomend everyone take a deep breath and relax.

I do not see any harassing going on. I see questions being asked and tangents resulting.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Then why do you keep harrassing me? *



Tony

Just between two guys on the internet.

Your approach here is brash and sometimes seems to seem arrogant. It is your way or the highway. Well to be honest if everyone took this attitude then no one would learn anything. Including here. The owner of the board could kick everyone out who disagrees with him. Yet he allows discussions to go on and on and on, and only steps in when he absolutely must, for the preservation of the board.

Yet, if I followed your rules and logic, you would not be a member here. You are not friendly and do not offer friendship. You demand respect, and when an issue is questioned you get upset and insult. SOmetimes people will even ask you more questions which you seem to take as a hostile action. No one is out to get you per se. You could just be friendly and continue to educate some or all of here on your art.

So maybe in my unasked for opinion, if just relaxed some of the attitude and came across as this is the way I was taught and this is what I know, and not like th rest of the world is totally wrong. Remember everyone at one time thought teh world was flat. Perceptions of evironment and or history can change depend upon which side of the story you are on. I understand that this may seem like we are lecturing to you. It is not my intention to tell you how to operate. As a mamber of this board I can share my experiences and the boards goals and desires and rules. Yet, you seem to be duplicitous. It is ok to make fun of others and to question tem yet it is a personal attack on you and your art when someone asks a question and does not have enough knowledge to phrase the question in the proper words. It is then your job and priviledge to educate them. If you expect them to phrase it in a humble manner that you expect, when they do not know how to ask the question humble other than the words they already have chosen.

 I mean I could ask you to understand the term Friendly? You have this tendency to answer a question with a question. And while I like this method to get some people to open thier minds and think, I do not think it is always the best way to get your point across.

Also, you have a tendency of ignoring certain parts of posts or questions put to you. i.e. some of my previous posts. I do not understand this. In my mind if I follow your logic you are only being a troll, as you have called other people on this board. Yet, you have a presence here and elsewhere that shows this is most likely not the case. Yet, it is confusing to me, in your actions.

So, from one guy to another, sit back enjoy the ride, do not assume that everyone is out to get you, and just chill and relax and answer questions, and see how many new sheep flock to get a new education. This is just my opinion, you can ignore it as you have previously. Fine.

Enjoy! 

PS: I will be out the next couple of days at the Local Ren-Fest (* Holly Grove Renaisance Festival *) so I am not ignoring you, I am just otherwise occupied.

:asian:

PSS: Or ignore the post in whole as Kaith has posted, My Apologies Bob I was typing as you posted also.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

Rich, do not question my knowledge or understanding of Shorinji Kempo. I am the only Kenshi currently on these boards. As I pointed out before with quote from Richard Dawkins:


> I am sometimes accused of arrogant intolerance in my treatment of creationists. Of course arrogance is an unpleasant characteristic, and I should hate to be thought arrogant in a general way. But there are limits! To get some idea of what it is like being a professional student of evolution, asked to have a serious debate with creationists, the following comparison is a fair one. Imagine yourself a classical scholar who has spent a lifetime studying Roman history in all its rich detail. Now somebody comes along, with a degree in marine engineering or mediaeval musicology, and tries to argue that the Romans never existed. Wouldn't you find it hard to suppress your impatience? And mightn't it look a bit like arrogance?


You can ban me if you like, but it won't make you right or me wrong. People can ask questions of Shorinji Kempo, but not tell me what the art is about. You want arrogance? Nightingale argues medicine with doctors! I find myself very imaptient with people who come here not to learn, but to lecture me on what my art entails. By all means, ask questions, but do not make statements. No one here is qualified to do so.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *Rich, do not question my knowledge or understanding of Shorinji Kempo. I am the only Kenshi currently on these boards. As I pointed out before with quote from Richard Dawkins:
> *


My Apologies

I never once sad anything about you not know about your art.

You keep quoting RIchard Dawkins, may I have a link to his works or to his books. so, I may understand the big picture



> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *
> You can ban me if you like, but it won't make you right or me wrong.
> *



I never said I was going to ban you. I apologize if you took it this way. I only ask for you to go back and read all of my posts, and see if you see intent. I thought not, yet i have been wrong before.



> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *
> . . .
> I find myself very imaptient with people who come here not to learn, . . .l
> *



With Respect. On Impatience, I cannot help you.


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 29, 2003)

If you want Dawkins, check out his website. I recommend his books, too. (I'm a big fan.)
Impatience is a problem; I'm like the teenage Anakin Skywalker in AOTC.


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## D.Cobb (Aug 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kimpatsu _
> *No. Why do people who know nothing aboutthe subject want to argue with those who are qualified to have an opinion? I find that very galling. Like Richard Dawkins said:
> 
> How can a man who has never been a Shorinji Kenshi think he has something to teach me, when I've been a Shorinji Kenshi for 19 years this November? Does he disagree with his doctor about medical advice? His lawyer about legal advice? I've dedicated half my life to this art. I think he should accept that I know what I'm talking about.
> Now, why don't you ask him the same question? *



I'm afraid, I'm going to have to take Kimpatsu's side on this one. Those of you who are American Kenpo practitioners would hate it if someone who wasn't an AK practitioner came here and gave you a totally different history to the one set out by SGM Parker. All of a sudden after 19 years as a Shorinji Kenshi, Tony is told by someone not of his style that the history of his system as he knows it, is totally wrong. I think I said it in another post, you've got to try standing in someone elses shoes, no matter how tight they are, to know where they are coming from.

--Dave

:asian:


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## kenmpoka (Aug 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *I'm afraid, I'm going to have to take Kimpatsu's side on this one. Those of you who are American Kenpo practitioners would hate it if someone who wasn't an AK practitioner came here and gave you a totally different history to the one set out by SGM Parker. All of a sudden after 19 years as a Shorinji Kenshi, Tony is told by someone not of his style that the history of his system as he knows it, is totally wrong. I think I said it in another post, you've got to try standing in someone elses shoes, no matter how tight they are, to know where they are coming from.
> 
> --Dave
> ...


Mr. Cobb,

I did not tell Tony how to perform his techniques, nor did I offer any expertise. I do believe that I said that I am not familiar the details verbatim. 

The different perspective on the history did not just come from my mind. It has been documented and I did offer  a credible source for him to contact and dwell further in the matter. 

At times the history is at best tainted due to political reasons. I do know and practice and exchange info with couple of practitioners of Shorinji Kempo, so I am familiar with the similarities. At certain level most arts differ in details only. The presence of Jujutsu, Aiki projections, randori, posturing and movements are apparent in the system and give clues to its history.

Additionally having a broad knowledge in various arts, I see similarities in the execution of the techniques that verify the history for me.

In any case I am done with this subject. 

Salute,


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## Kimpatsu (Aug 30, 2003)

The source you cited was NOT credible.
Only official Shorinji Kempo sources are credible. The So Doshin Monogatari (Story of So Doshin) is the official biography. If there is a discrepancy between the biography and your info, then your info is at fault.
Also, techniques can evolve independently and yet each other. Kind of like the evolution of the eye. Telling me that I'm wrong is just plain daft; hence Dave's post.


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## James Kovacich (Sep 7, 2003)

Are there any opinions on Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu?


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## Nightingale (Sep 7, 2003)

not sure...

Kimpatsu's statement that "only official shorinji kempo sources are credible" is extremely disturbing to me.  does anyone else have information about this art?


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## Sensei Manny (Dec 5, 2009)

If you please, it is very interesting the comparisons between Shorinji Kempo and Shorinjiryu Kenkokan styles of karate-do; as is the simularities with all the so-called "differnent" styles. To this forum, I would like to learn more about the various histories, add my two cents worth, and also give my opinions, as I am a practitioner of Shorinjiryu Kenkokan Karatedo, former student of Hanshi Masayuki Kisataka, and Shinan Wayne Donivan.
Point of interest: I am stedfast in training and maintaining the original Shorinjiryu Kenkokan System of Shiai (competition).


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## jks9199 (Dec 5, 2009)

Sensei Manny said:


> If you please, it is very interesting the comparisons between Shorinji Kempo and Shorinjiryu Kenkokan styles of karate-do; as is the simularities with all the so-called "differnent" styles. To this forum, I would like to learn more about the various histories, add my two cents worth, and also give my opinions, as I am a practitioner of Shorinjiryu Kenkokan Karatedo, former student of Hanshi Masayuki Kisataka, and Shinan Wayne Donivan.
> Point of interest: I am stedfast in training and maintaining the original Shorinjiryu Kenkokan System of Shiai (competition).


Can you tell us more about that competition system?


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## repz (Feb 13, 2010)

Nightingale said:


> not sure...
> 
> Kimpatsu's statement that "only official shorinji kempo sources are credible" is extremely disturbing to me.  does anyone else have information about this art?



I took shorinji Kempo for a while. They seemed to be a secular group, not really mingling with outsiders (just my impression). They used to be very religious, which at the time of its creation suited it well since American GIs wanted to ban martial arts after ww2 in japan. Now they are about philosophy and have guidelines and rules. They have a tight knit group, and a large global association, so I could understand the comment of official shorinji kempo sources being only crediable, its an org founded by the founder and is still active with no splinter groups or infighting. It would be hard for someone outside their "family" to make comments about the founders history since the founder history is documented by them.

I considered it a good style, nice stand up with solid takedowns.


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