# Can two different lineages train together?



## bully (Jan 11, 2010)

So, can it be done?

If so how?

Who takes the lead? If the forms are different, do you train in both?

Scenario:

Class with 6-7 students of different levels. 2 Instructors of the same lineage.

1 person who wants to train with above class and maybe teach...of another lineage.....

Will he/she confuse existing students with different versions of the forms?

Should he/she just come in and train and not get involved?

I know some types of VT/WC etc etc are harder than other styles, will this affect Chi Sau  and drills? If they do a drill with me for example and then the "other" guy and we "feel" completely different will this affect learning??

WC guys are in very short supply here. 

I reckon just get him in.

Thoughts?


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## khand50 (Jan 11, 2010)

i know from my training in other styles of martial art,  such as filipino styles, which seem to be more flexible in this regard,  that it can be confusing to train in the same art but with different lineages.  
currently i have started learning moy yat ving tsun from a fellow here where i live.  the way he performs his wing chun is slightly different from the way i learned it in the 80's.  neither of us is wrong,  but since there is a difference and i am studying with him now,  i am acquiesing to his version.  the only thing that bugs me is how he does his gong sao in sil lum tao.  in every other version i have seen,  the arm does a smooth semi circular motion from the tan sao downward,  then back up.  this fellow pulls the palm to his face,  turns his knifehand edge outward and drops his hand straight down,  then returns to tan sao,  before doing the huen sao and back to his side.  but again,  since i am learning what he has to offer,  i am giving way to the differences.  
ive read, on another forum,  that there are differences in the way each lineage of wing chun approached chi sao.  an instructor,  who will remain nameless,  due to respect for his opinion,  explained to me that the way the leung ting school practiced was different than the way wong shun leung's school practiced it.  there was a difference in the sensitivity.  i couldnt quote what he told me right now, and was looking for the post he answered my questions on but couldnt find it.   
so if your chi sao if different,  you might have trouble adapting between instructors.  if they are the same then the art shouldnt be too different,  i would imagine.  
in my opinion,  if you are going to train in the same styles,  i would pick one to train in until you are at a satisfactory level or high enough level to learn another lineage,  and be able to differentiate between subtle stylistic differences.


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## profesormental (Jan 12, 2010)

To solve this, have the instructors fight to the death and who ever survives has the better Wing Chun. 

Or better yet, have the instructors play on the mat and share notes. That way they can take the best from each and improve what they have to teach the students.

Or teach on separate days, if no $$ is involved. Money and ego can make things a bit complicated...

Hope that helps!

Juan Mercado

P.S. I would still prefer the deathmatch though...


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## Tensei85 (Jan 12, 2010)

As far as Chi Sau, I feel no matter who you drill chi sau with it's going to feel a bit different due to different structures, strengths, abilities, preferences, the list goes on...

But in Chi Sau, it is a method to train your structures, mechanics, energies. But one of the most important functions of Chi Sau is the "Flow" (Lau) this is an viable understanding so you should be able to flow from one scenario to the other, in fact when we chi sau a lot of times we would flow from various ranges to another, but of course once your in a clinch its no longer quote on quote "chi sau drilling" but the concept of Chi Sau itself can exist in pretty much every contact you have with a partner where wrist is engaged, in CMA we train Kiu Sau as well where the forearm contact is engaged. So these are two different ranges one being Chi Sau & the other being Kiu Sau. Now when we are talking about the "drill" chi sau it can always take on different shapes, energies etc... but again the ability to flow is viable. So in essence I don't feel that training with someone that does their chi sau differently should have much of an effect as if your going to a Wing Chun competition, you'll encounter various types or preferences of Chi Sau but in the end it's still Chi Sau. 

If your talking about different versions of Wing Chun with different teachers than I say give them alternate day's that will work with their schedules, I wouldn't practice for instance the form SNT two different ways in one class as that may be rather confusing depending on how different it is. But overall I would say its not a good idea. 

Overall I would ask the students what they feel, if their comfortable with so & so teaching or learning from them, this can in a lot of cases cause conflicts so I would say definitely use "kid gloves" in this approach.

If I have time I'll try to add more later, back to work...

Good luck!


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## Poor Uke (Jan 13, 2010)

Nice post. i have never heard the distinction between Chi Sau and Kiu Sau but it makes perfect sense to me. I think the way I have been taught 'Chi Sau' is actually more like Kiu Sau.


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## Tensei85 (Jan 13, 2010)

Poor Uke said:


> Nice post. i have never heard the distinction between Chi Sau and Kiu Sau but it makes perfect sense to me. I think the way I have been taught 'Chi Sau' is actually more like Kiu Sau.


 
Hey Uke,

Ya they are quite similar, but the "Kiu" (Bridge) is 'generally' a reference for the forearm, Chi Sau (haha) varies based on system because in reality every system to a certain extent has "sticking hands" as well "bridging hands". Just in Wing Chun we changed up the drilling of it to reference our Concepts & Mechanics of Wing Chun, thus Wing Chun Chi Sau. 

In Bei Tong Long we train a lot of Chi Sau, their usage of Kiu Sau is more like a smashing arm type of contact. With a lot of Da Saam Sing training (Conditioning arms agains partner). 

That is just my take, but now for another side. I have heard of in the past Wing Chun doesn't actually have Chi Sau but in reality everything is "Chi Kiu Sau"

So things like like bong, tan & fuk are actually a Kiu Sau in nature. That being said can't really say I agree with it but at the same time I can't really say its not atleast half way accurate, as I definitely wasn't there when Wing Chun's Chi Sau process was designed. 

But all that aside I would have to say that both Chi Sau & Kiu Sau have definite drilling formats & are integrally important for Wing Chun training. How we define them I guess doesn't always matter as long as our training is fundamentally sound.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 13, 2010)

My time in Wing Chun was so limited that I am not sure I should be answering this but after reading through it I decided to post since it could also apply to Taijiquan and different lineages as well as other CMA styles I have trained.

As far as forms go I would think it could be a bit confusing to students to be taught a form one day from one lineage and a form the next day from another lineage. And in the early stages of Chi Sau it could also cause some confusion (but I am not sure it would be detrimental) but in the later stages I can only think it would help. If you only do Chi Sau against the same people of the same lineage all the time you are severely limiting yourself IMO. Frankly I believe after you reach a certain level you should seek out other lineages and completely different styles to do Chi sau with&#8230;. Although they may call it tui shou :asian:


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## geezer (Jan 13, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Frankly I believe after you reach a certain level you *should *seek out other lineages and completely different styles to do Chi sau with&#8230;. Although they may call it tui shou :asian:


 
I'd have to agree with Xue. It would be confusing and counterproductive to try and learn different lineages at the same time. There are too many apparent contradictions in the basics: stance, structure, energy and forms.

On the other hand, after a training a bit ...say five years or so, you should cross bridges with other lineages and examine what they do with an open mind. Maybe some of those "contradictions" will now seem more like poetic oxymorons, or even like zen koans... and you will discover new ways to move that work for you. And yes, that "tui shou" might really open your eyes!


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## mograph (Jan 13, 2010)

I have no experience with Wing Chun, so if my opinion doesn't apply, my apologies ...

... but it may be possible for the two lineages to coexist if the crossover lessons deal with the elements to the art common to both forms. To use taijiquan as an example, the common elements may be rooting and whole-body usage. If the teachers are creative, they can come up with exercises that teach the common elements without compromising the students' forms. Once the exercises are taught, the students can go back to their own forms.

Thanks for reading. I enjoy your forum.


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## Poor Uke (Jan 15, 2010)

Re. OP:

I think it is possible if you concentrate on the similarities and dont become attached to real nitpicky distractions. The validity of certain concepts will probably come out in Chi Sau/Kiu/Gurk.

Who knows such training may well coalesce into a fuller WC style?

Good luck


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## geezer (Jan 15, 2010)

Poor Uke said:


> Who knows such training may well coalesce into a fuller WC style?
> 
> *Good luck*


 
While I agree 100% in principle, P.uke, ...in practice? _Good Luck_ is right!


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## Poor Uke (Jan 16, 2010)

Amen


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## hunt1 (Jan 17, 2010)

I think I can answer this question as I do it now and have done it for a few years.
 My good friend Phil Romero and I have trained each others students and swap students. This works even though our wing chun back grounds come from different sources Phil having well over 30 years with Hawkins Cheung.

 It works because we recognize and agree on the key points and basics and learned our skills the old fashioned way, by fighting.

 We agree on the stance and use of the lower body and body structure.
We both laugh at and could care less about the speed of the hands and locked waist/upper body.

 If the teachers agree on the basics then the artistic differences don't matter.

 At the same time I don't think either of us could work with someone from the Leung Ting style for example as the differences in the basics are too great.


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## Domino (Jan 22, 2010)

Kiu Sau


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