# Buying heavy (close-quarters) weaponry and practicing at home?



## Zombocalypse (Dec 16, 2022)

I've decided to commit some time in my nearby BJJ gym. I'm still a powerlifter of course, but it wouldn't hurt spending two days a week in learning a grappling art.

However, for the sake of extra weight training, I'm thinking of buying some kind of heavy replica battle-axe and swinging it around for shoulder strength/endurance. I think it will be fun.

Do you know of any YouTube instructionals on how to swing it properly? I don't want to learn bad habits.

And what would you recommend as far as training protocols are concerned? How many sets/reps/minutes/etc?

Thanks.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 16, 2022)

What you want is called an iron mace or steel mace or gada.

Here is one workout, but there are plenty more on YouTube.

I have a copy of this book, which I think is quite good.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 16, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What you want is called an iron mace or steel mace or gada.
> 
> Here is one workout, but there are plenty more on YouTube.
> 
> I have a copy of this book, which I think is quite good.



The 360 part of that workout... Where do you feel it? On the shoulders?

Also, twenty pounds is _a lot. _lol


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 16, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> The 360 part of that workout... Where do you feel it? On the shoulders?
> 
> Also, twenty pounds is _a lot. _lol


The 360 hits the whole upper body & core to an extent, but I feel it most in the lats.

If you want something that focuses more on the shoulders, then I recommend the Indian clubs.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 17, 2022)

Functional weapons are not particularly heavy.


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## drop bear (Dec 17, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What you want is called an iron mace or steel mace or gada.
> 
> Here is one workout, but there are plenty more on YouTube.
> 
> I have a copy of this book, which I think is quite good.



And because the functional fitness this is big right now.

You can get offshoots of that basic concept in pretty much whatever you want.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 17, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Functional weapons are not particularly heavy.


True. The steel mace and the Indian clubs are not intended as functional weapons. But the exercises you do with them not only help strengthen the body but also teach you to more efficiently engage your large muscle groups when using real weapons.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 17, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> True. The steel mace and the Indian clubs are not intended as functional weapons. But the exercises you do with them not only help strengthen the body but also teach you to more efficiently engage your large muscle groups when using real weapons.


Sure, somewhat akin to the baseball habit of adding weight to your bat while warming up.

For cutting weapons, I'm a big fan of pell work. I just think it's better to do it with a reasonably realistic weapon.

For something like the rapier, I like a tennis ball hung from the ceiling by elastic. If that gets too easy, change to a ping pong ball.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 17, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The 360 hits the whole upper body & core to an extent, but I feel it most in the lats.
> 
> If you want something that focuses more on the shoulders, then I recommend the Indian clubs.


How expensive are training versions of the weapons you've mentioned in this thread, Tony? I need to pick up something to help develop some areas after a series of injuries in the last decade (did the PT each time, now need to build up support to keep from doing it again).


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 18, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> How expensive are training versions of the weapons you've mentioned in this thread, Tony? I need to pick up something to help develop some areas after a series of injuries in the last decade (did the PT each time, now need to build up support to keep from doing it again).


They aren’t weapons at all - just training tools. You can find them on Amazon in the $25-50 range. Just search for “steel mace” and “Indian clubs “.


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## Gyakuto (Dec 18, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> They aren’t weapons at all - just training tools. You can find them on Amazon in the $25-50 range. Just search for “steel mace” and “Indian clubs “.


My ex-Iaido teacher is one of the few (possibly only) traditional Indian club swingers in the U.K. He had to get his clubs specially turned since he claimed the off-the-shelf clubs were poorly balanced (essentially bowling or juggling pins) and too light and could lead to injury. He also had a huge gada (😐)

He used to get many requests to give one day seminars on Indian club swinging to personal trainers who would then set up ‘Indian Club Swinging‘ classes or even clubs claiming to be experts trained by Indian gurus etc (sounds like the martial arts, eh?) I believe it was the British Army _in_ India who systematised it for soldiers rather than an Indian art per se.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 18, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> How expensive are training versions of the weapons you've mentioned in this thread, Tony? I need to pick up something to help develop some areas after a series of injuries in the last decade (did the PT each time, now need to build up support to keep from doing it again).


They're not remotely weapons. An indian club is basically a stretched out bowling pin.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 18, 2022)

EDIT: This is directed to Tony Dismukes.

On the video you showed earlier of that dude swinging the workout-mace, are what he was doing something that can improve my mace-combat performance? Or it's purely a general strength workout thing?

And like I said man, that guy must be strong. Being able to move 20 pounds like that for that many reps shows a good degree of strength.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 18, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> My ex-Iaido teacher is one of the few (possibly only) traditional Indian club swingers in the U.K. He had to get his clubs specially turned since he claimed the off-the-shelf clubs were poorly balanced (essentially bowling or juggling pins) and too light and could lead to injury. He also had a huge gada (😐)
> 
> He used to get many requests to give one day seminars on Indian club swinging to personal trainers who would then set up ‘Indian Club Swinging‘ classes or even clubs claiming to be experts trained by Indian gurus etc (sounds like the martial arts, eh?) I believe it was the British Army _in_ India who systematised it for soldiers rather than an Indian art per se.



Do Indian clubs training improve your ability to use (relatively) light weapons like hatchets? I'm deciding whether to do them instead of Dismukes's mace workout.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 18, 2022)

drop bear said:


> And because the functional fitness this is big right now.
> 
> You can get offshoots of that basic concept in pretty much whatever you want.



Hey thanks. The adjustability of weight of those swords make it a real value.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 18, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> EDIT: This is directed to Tony Dismukes.
> 
> On the video you showed earlier of that dude swinging the workout-mace, are what he was doing something that can improve my mace-combat performance? Or it's purely a general strength workout thing?
> 
> And like I said man, that guy must be strong. Being able to move 20 pounds like that for that many reps shows a good degree of strength.


It’s an indirect influence on combative ability. That’s not the same technique you would use for swinging a weapon. But it strengthens the muscles you would use for swinging a weapon and helps train the proper kinetic chain for powering a weapon strike. It also helps teach you the feel for how to steer and control a heavy object in motion, which is as much technique as it is strength.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2022)

I would suggest if you want to become captain murder bot with a mace or something.

Attach a tire to a wall. Get a sledge  hammer. And wack it a bunch of times. 

You can also do most of those functional mace workouts with a sledge.


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## Argus (Dec 19, 2022)

Just thought I'd chime in here...

If you want to build some skills that translate into weapons, you had better practice a weapons based art. FMA might be up your alley. HEMA is also great, as are some Japanese arts (there are suburito also -- heavy wooden swords just for swinging).
The efficient use of any weapon is usually the exact opposite of an exercise, and exercise for the purpose of exercise only may train bad and counter productive habits. Weapons, especially bladed weapons, are used in a much more efficient, subtle, and delicate manner than you probably think -- they have to be, because your ability to inflict fatal damage, and the associated margin for error, is far lower than it is with empty hands. If you're swinging 20lbs sledge hammers like a gorilla, you're training somewhat the opposite habits that you need to use, for example, a sword, axe, or club effectively. Large, circular, over-committed swings are great for fitness, but will get you killed in combat. Small, efficient movements, centerline theory, good footwork and structure, a keen understanding of range and timing, non-telegraphic striking and quick recovery are the sorts of things which are necessary. It does not take a lot of force to kill someone with a sword, axe, or knife. That's why they're nice and sharp -- they go into unarmored targets quite effortlessly on their own and don't benefit from brute strength. This is as true of a knife as it is of a massive axe or halberd.
Clubs and sticks do use larger movements and require more force, but even there, the movement is more subtle than you probably would expect, and isn't necessarily a good workout. Though, I will say that striking a target such as a tire full strength, and with proper form, can be quite exhausting (and quickly tear up one's hands if not thoroughly conditioned). That could be quite a good exercise.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 20, 2022)

Argus said:


> Just thought I'd chime in here...
> 
> If you want to build some skills that translate into weapons, you had better practice a weapons based art. FMA might be up your alley. HEMA is also great, as are some Japanese arts (there are suburito also -- heavy wooden swords just for swinging).
> The efficient use of any weapon is usually the exact opposite of an exercise, and exercise for the purpose of exercise only may train bad and counter productive habits. Weapons, especially bladed weapons, are used in a much more efficient, subtle, and delicate manner than you probably think -- they have to be, because your ability to inflict fatal damage, and the associated margin for error, is far lower than it is with empty hands. If you're swinging 20lbs sledge hammers like a gorilla, you're training somewhat the opposite habits that you need to use, for example, a sword, axe, or club effectively. Large, circular, over-committed swings are great for fitness, but will get you killed in combat. Small, efficient movements, centerline theory, good footwork and structure, a keen understanding of range and timing, non-telegraphic striking and quick recovery are the sorts of things which are necessary. It does not take a lot of force to kill someone with a sword, axe, or knife. That's why they're nice and sharp -- they go into unarmored targets quite effortlessly on their own and don't benefit from brute strength. This is as true of a knife as it is of a massive axe or halberd.
> Clubs and sticks do use larger movements and require more force, but even there, the movement is more subtle than you probably would expect, and isn't necessarily a good workout. Though, I will say that striking a target such as a tire full strength, and with proper form, can be quite exhausting (and quickly tear up one's hands if not thoroughly conditioned). That could be quite a good exercise.



I'm not sure if I have the luxury of having a nearby weapons-based art where I live. I do have to look that up.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 20, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> I'm not sure if I have the luxury of having a nearby weapons-based art where I live. I do have to look that up.


If you can find a training partner, 2 men drill can be fun. Here is Miao Dao technique 101.

- Your opponent attacks with sword.
- You use "comb hair" to deflect his sword and attack back.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2022)

Tree felling?


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