# Is it practical



## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2006)

to train with archaic weapons like the Kusarigama, or the Ono, or Naginata, or is training with these weapons soley a way to preserve the past.

What do you guys think?


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## SAVAGE (Mar 1, 2006)

People who train with swords are not training with a practical weapon...no one has a sword handy...knives...that is a different kettle of fish!


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2006)

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> People who train with swords are not training with a practical weapon...no one has a sword handy.


 
Really?  Gamble you life on that, would you?


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2006)

I would also like to point out that, in our art at least, the "practicality" of training with a sword extends to other, similar weapons.  Ones which are fairly common and readily availible.


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## Tarot (Mar 1, 2006)

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> People who train with swords are not training with a practical weapon...no one has a sword handy...



Hrrmmm tell that to the sword that I have.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2006)

Tarot said:
			
		

> Hrrmmm tell that to the sword that I have.


 
Or the cop in our dojo that had a situation with some kids and a sword, or the austrailians who had to ban them due to the large amount of sword violence... or that guy in THIS thread... or the drunken Skinhead who took one off a wall at a party and swung it at ME a few years back...

And now that we are OFF TOPIC... back to my original question please...


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## Tengu6 (Mar 1, 2006)

First, in training with a sword you learn a lot of very important things. It improves your overall movement as well as teaches distance and timing in a life or death manner, and in a way that training without one will not.

I will bet that a lot of people in New Orleans would have loved to have been skilled with a katanaa while back.

You never know what situation you will be in, sure guns are nice to have but what about when the ammo runs out?

And yes, part of what we are doing is preserving the art, you nver know what skills our children or grandchildren or great grandchildren, etc. may need.

Ninjutsu is about adaptability, and the way to be adaptable is to understand what brought us to where we are today, and apply those skills in a way that applies to the current situation. But if you dont know how the problem was solved in the first place, how can you adapt?

Markk Bush


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## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> First, in training with a sword you learn a lot of very important things. It improves your overall movement as well as teaches distance and timing in a life or death manner, and in a way that training without one will not.


 
Good post Markk, I agree with that, and I have no question about sword training at all... we got sidetracked into that... my question was more along the lines of other, stranger, more "exotic" weapons.

I do think you addressed some of that in your post.


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## evenflow1121 (Mar 1, 2006)

I think there is a practicality to everything, you dont know who is going to be carrying what in the middle of a dark ally, but it comes down to probability, what are the chances that you are going to get attacked with a sword or a naginata even, as opposed to a gun or knife, still it can happen.


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## Tengu6 (Mar 2, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Good post Markk, I agree with that, and I have no question about sword training at all... we got sidetracked into that... my question was more along the lines of other, stranger, more "exotic" weapons.
> 
> I do think you addressed some of that in your post.


 
Yup, I dont care how exotic the weapon, if it had a practical purpose then it was a solution to a problem at some point in history, _and_, from history we can know its effectiveness. Now, if we learn _how_ it was a solution, we can apply that knowledge toward todays problems. Kind of a problem solving thing.

especialy some of the heavier weapons, we learn to move much more efficiently to manipulate the weight. Imagine the same movement but minus the 10 or 20 pound object. Devastating I think.

Also, Charles Daniel recently had Ed Martin make him some 8 pound Bokken to practice some Shinden Fudo Ryu stuff, he saysthe movements directly relate to throws......cant wait to see that stuff in July at Ed place.

Markk Bush


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## bignick (Mar 2, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> Yup, I dont care how exotic the weapon, if it had a practical purpose then it was a solution to a problem at some point in history, _and_, from history we can know its effectiveness. Now, if we learn _how_ it was a solution, we can apply that knowledge toward todays problems. Kind of a problem solving thing.
> 
> especialy some of the heavier weapons, we learn to move much more efficiently to manipulate the weight. Imagine the same movement but minus the 10 or 20 pound object. Devastating I think.
> 
> ...



If you look at aikido and jujutsu you can clearly see the relationship between the sword and the empty hand, perhaps more clear in aikido, but it's present to certain extents in jujutsu as well.


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

Markk certainly brings up some very good points!  As another example, the same thing can be said about Modern Arnis.  The stick and blade work is all interactive, meaning things can easily be translated from empty hand to weapon and weapon to empty hand.

Mike


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## mrhnau (Mar 2, 2006)

Well, what -would- you consider a practical weapon? I'll rattle off a few

Shuriken - you always have some keys, some rocks or something similar. granted, its not bladed, but useful for distraction

sword/hanbo - umbrella, stick, broom, alot of general items can be translated

knife/tanto - lots of knives around and you can easily carry one w/out -too- much suspicion

Kasuri Fondo (sp) - lots of rope like objects around

What else would you consider really practical?

Like others have said, I'm of the opinion that learning more exotic weapons have their merits. For me, even if its not practical it at least gives you an idea of the breadth of the art and alot of the techniques are easily transferable from weapon to empty hand. As far as the training being practical on its own merits, I kind of doubt it. Won't find analogies for some of the more exotic weapons laying around frequently.

Personally, our group does not do alot of the more exotic weapons. However, I am looking forward to trying out the Kyoketsu Shoge at some point in the near future


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## Kreth (Mar 2, 2006)

Training with exotic classical weapons is most definitely practical. Train outside occasionally with a sword, bo, or kusari fundo, and note how polite your neighbors become... :uhyeah:


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## Bigshadow (Mar 2, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> to train with archaic weapons like the Kusarigama, or the Ono, or Naginata, or is training with these weapons soley a way to preserve the past.
> 
> What do you guys think?


It seems to me that the naginata and yari are bladed bo.  No?   So wouldn't the training be similar?


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## Bigshadow (Mar 2, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> to train with archaic weapons like the Kusarigama, or the Ono, or Naginata, or is training with these weapons soley a way to preserve the past.
> 
> What do you guys think?


We have worked with the Kusari Fundo with Jack Hoban, but for the most part it has been the hanbo, bo, daisho, knife, and pistol.  I would like to work with more flexible weapons such as the kusarigama and the Kyoketsu Shoge.

I do believe that flexible weapons requires some good movement before one can use them effectively.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 2, 2006)

I like using a t-shirt as a flexible weapon. Stick one hand through the neck opening and out one of the arms, wrap a little and you're ready to rock and roll. Take a look at Marc Halleck's Panantukan Silat Combatives videos and you'll see what I mean.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 2, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the naginata and yari are bladed bo. No? So wouldn't the training be similar?


 
I don't train the Japanese arts and weapons, but rather the Chinese, including the staff and spear.

While there can be similarities between staff and spear technique, it seems to me that they are definitely different animals.  Having a sharp blade at the end creates different possibilities and limitations.

I know some staff work that mostly thrusts and even "slashes" with the end of the staff, and seems similar to spear.  I believe these particular staff techniques may even be modified spear techniques, but my experience with the spear itself leads me to believe it is still quite different.

However, I can definitely see how experience with these weapons can have a useful translation in the modern world.  A broomhandle could definitely be put to good use with both staff and spear techniques. Dao (Broadsword) technique could be applied as strikes instead of slashes, with a shorter stick or broken broom handle.  Thrusting knife techniques could be applied with a pen or pencil.  Use your imagination and you could come up with many more.


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## bencole (Mar 2, 2006)

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> People who train with swords are not training with a practical weapon...no one has a sword handy...knives...that is a different kettle of fish!


 
Tell that to the 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu moderates in Rwanda in 1994, many of whom were hacked up with machetes.

-ben


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## Bigshadow (Mar 2, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> While there can be similarities between staff and spear technique, it seems to me that they are definitely different animals.  Having a sharp blade at the end creates different possibilities and limitations.



Thanks.  I understand that they each have their unique qualities and characteristics.


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## SAVAGE (Mar 2, 2006)

I would agree that learning to defend against it is a good idea! But how many of you have your sword when you are walking down the street...yes there are incidences of swords...but compared to the incidences of knife attacks...it is very one sided!


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## MJS (Mar 2, 2006)

If movements can be applied with a similar weapon or if the movements can be translated to empty hand movements, then I'd have to say that there would be merit in training with the weapon.

Mike


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## Andrew Green (Mar 2, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> to train with archaic weapons like the Kusarigama, or the Ono, or Naginata, or is training with these weapons soley a way to preserve the past.
> 
> What do you guys think?



Who cares?  Hook me up 

Most hobbies aren't practical, that's why they are hobbies.

Martial Artists as a whole seem to have far to much concern for practicallity in a hobby which really, if we are honest about it, is not that practical.  The vast majority of use will never have to defend ourselves in a real fight.


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## Don Roley (Mar 3, 2006)

Hmmmm.....

I have a shovel that I keep in the yard. I usually am not more than a few steps from it when I am in it. (Not paranoia, Japanese houses are just small and the yards more so.)

It is an aluminum one with a semi-triangle head and a handle at the end.

It is not a _hanbo, rokushakubo, yari, naginata_ or _katana_ and yet when I have fooled around with it, the way to use it as a weapon takes something from each of these weapons.

Stick the sharp end in someone? Yari. Going to smack someone from there with the edge? Pull back as you would doing rokushakubo furi, or naginata and go into Hasso/tenchijin. From there, you basically use the striking techniques of a katana or a naginata. And the entire time you are at the ma-ai of a hanbo.

Of course, I have to point out that the majority of people teaching weapons outside of Japan probably do not have even a decent basic knowledge of it. This statement is based on my observations in Someya Dojo of person after person who had been teaching sword for years having to be taught by him how to swing the damn thing.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 3, 2006)

bencole said:
			
		

> Tell that to the 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu moderates in Rwanda in 1994, many of whom were hacked up with machetes.
> 
> -ben



Yes indeedy. And here in the States:



> Machetes cutting a wider swath of fear in U.S. communities
> 
> http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=MACHETES-03-02-06&cat=AN
> 
> ...




Sent that around to my dojo list yesterday. For some strange reason, last night's class was all muto-dori training versus attacks with a wakizashi. Everything ended up being _henka_ or variations on two kata from Shinden Fudo ryu, _Gekkan_ and _Unjaku_.


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## bencole (Mar 3, 2006)

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I would agree that learning to defend against it is a good idea! But how many of you have your sword when you are walking down the street...yes there are incidences of swords...but compared to the incidences of knife attacks...it is very one sided!


 
You need to know how to use a weapon in order to defend against it, in my opinion. If you have held a sword in your hand, or a hanbo, or a kusarigama, you know the distance you would need to hit the other guy. You know what type of skeletal and muscular movements would be necessary to get the weapon to the target with any force. And so on.

So when you come face to face with someone carrying a machete, or baseball bat, or chain, you know what is possible and what is not. You know where the threat is coming from and are not merely intimidated because "they have a weapon."

-ben


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## Tengu6 (Mar 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Of course, I have to point out that the majority of people teaching weapons outside of Japan probably do not have even a decent basic knowledge of it. This statement is based on my observations in Someya Dojo of person after person who had been teaching sword for years having to be taught by him how to swing the damn thing.


 
I wish I still knew as much as I did _before_ I met Luke Molitor. I was great with a sword back then.

Markk Bush


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## Shogun (Mar 3, 2006)

What I like about the more exotic weapons is the increased coordination. training with a chain defintely helps you percieve your own body movement much better. honestly, I've punched myself (literally) so many times.


apart from that, people who are actually capable of hurting you typically use weapons, and when they do, it usually is something like a bike chain, a rock, or a piece or rebar.

-Kyle


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## Cryozombie (Mar 3, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> I wish I still knew as much as I did _before_ I met Luke Molitor. I was great with a sword back then.
> 
> Markk Bush


 
Weren't we all?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Watts, who is sponsoring a bill to make it unlawful to brandish a machete with the intent to intimidate
> [/font]


 
Amazing that they need to pass a law specifically against this.  Seems to me this would already fall under other assault laws.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 5, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Amazing that they need to pass a law specifically against this. Seems to me this would already fall under other assault laws.



Of course it does. But this way the sponsors can present themselves as Doing Something To Make A Difference.


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## rutherford (Mar 6, 2006)

Found out last weekend that my old training group is doing an in-depth study of sword vs naginata.  I am so jealous, because I already know I can't make this week's session.  I'm going to have to move my schedule a bit and hook up with them outside of the regular class to pick up some crunchy bits.


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## Fallen Ninja (Mar 6, 2006)

I think a important concept to consider is not only does it maintain a legacy but also can transfer to weapons not similar to itself. For example, sword technique can be tranlated and seen while using a gun.
The great thing about our art is that everything thing is the same.  You learn a basic concept and you can apply that to kicks, punches, grabs, weapons, etc. If you see Soke's video "What is Martial Arts" you will see him to Fu of the San Shin with a gun. Talk about a Bushiken! Its really easy for people just to say... "well carrying those things are not plossible or legal now in our time so we won't use them. We have to remember that there were weapons that weren't legal to cary back then but the Ninja took concepts of weapons and transfered them to other common day tools. Use the same movement with your common day shoe lace, coat hanger, cigarette, fire extinguesher (sp?) etc.

:ninja:


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