# Red Flag for School?



## Superperson (Jul 7, 2018)

Hi,
I'm new to this forum and I have a question.

I'm currently taking Hapkido with a little Taekwondo mixed in. (My school has you learn both if you take Hapkido.) I'm very new to this style and new to my current school. I want to start by saying I think my teacher is great, or he seems to be that way with my little experience, and I'm having allot of fun but..and here is where my question comes into place. 
I have noticed that their are a few children, like 6 or so that have black belts. At first I was shocked and thought they must be pretty good if these kids that are 13 or less have obtained that. During my last class I walked into a student who was maybe 12 or 13 who had just gotten his 2nd Degree black belt. I was skeptical, but given my lack of understanding I tried to think little of it, until later in that class the teacher asked this same student to preform a couple of roundhouse kicks. The student had terrible form and missed two of his targets! Also another student who was a red belt said she had gotten that within a year...
After seeing these instances it made me worried that I might be going to whats called a Mcdojo. 
What are your thoughts?


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## JR 137 (Jul 7, 2018)

As a disclaimer, I’m not a fan of children wearing black belts in any way, shape or form.  I admit it’s a personal problem that’s not very rational, but I can’t get past it   I think they should get a completely different color, like gray or something.  But that’s another story.

A few thoughts on this and rank in general...

Junior/child black belts isn’t strictly a McDojo thing.  Plenty of legitimate places have them.  Even Kyokushin, which is a bare knuckle full-contact karate style has them.  Junior black belts in most places have a similar syllabus to adults, but it’s shortened in a sense.  Where I train (we don’t have any current junior black belts, but we’ve had a few) a junior black belt’s progress in the syllabus would be around where a 4th-3rd kyu (Korean arts call it gup?) adult would be.  I hear it generally takes kids 6 years of consistent training to test for junior black belt.

Kids in the MA have a different objective than adults IMO.  Aside from the self discipline, focus, confidence, yadda yadda yadda banner stuff, IMO the main aim for kids in the MA is to get them to love the art, and to give them a solid physical foundation  for when they’re ready to train as adults.  Kids in the MA isn’t about training young warriors and fighting machines.  If you agree with that, then you can see the belt rank doesn’t matter much.  Add to that, I don’t know of any schools that automatically grant a junior black belt an adult black belt when they come of age without a test.  I’m sure there’s one or two out there that just hand out an adult black belt upon whatever birthday,  it would haven’t seen it nor heard of it.  If awarding a child a black belt (as long as a good standard has been met) is going to keep them interested and motivated, and they’ll grow up to be excellent MAists as adults, I can accept it as a necessary evil. 

Rank means different things to different schools and people, regardless of age.  While there is usually minimum proficiency standards at most places, rank is most typically an outward sign of where the student is curriculum-wise.  A lot of that is a function of time served and consistency in attendance.  Even the most competition heavy schools don’t have a definitive hold on rank; in no school is it possible for every single 4th dan to beat every single 3rd dan, every 3rd to beat every 2nd dan, etc.  There’s way more to rank than that. 

Everyone else’s rank doesn’t change anything about yours.  There’s always going to be people who’s rank is suspect on the surface, and people who are better than their rank implies.  Their rank is their business, and your rank is yours.  The people on your left and the people on your right don’t deminish nor elevate your rank in any way.

Finally, going into a new place is a bit overwhelming when it comes to who’s who and what are the standards.  Walk into my dojo, and anyone would ask why a certain few students are ranked as high as they are.  Spend some time there, and the picture becomes quite clear - they work very hard, they’re very good teachers, they’ve had some injuries or illnesses, they aged, etc.  Atch my teacher kick, and you’ll ask yourself how did he earn a 7th dan.  Learn that he’s had both hips replaced over the years and he’s putting off having one redone, and it starts to make sense.  Watch him pick apart and correct students’ technique and you’ll get it.  None of that is apparent in a short visit. 

Going back to your original question, it could be a McDojo or it could be a great place.  Or it could be a place that doesn’t have very good rank standards, but the instruction is great.  Train hard and see where it gets you.  Ignore everyone’s rank, especially the kids’.  Give it some time.  If everything else works for you, what’s the difference?  If you’ve got more issues that just the rank stuff, then it may be time to move on.  Only time will tell. 

And yeah... I went through that whole spiel and I still hate the concept of kid black belts.  I’ve got issues


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## mrt2 (Jul 7, 2018)

Superperson said:


> Hi,
> I'm new to this forum and I have a question.
> 
> I'm currently taking Hapkido with a little Taekwondo mixed in. (My school has you learn both if you take Hapkido.) I'm very new to this style and new to my current school. I want to start by saying I think my teacher is great, or he seems to be that way with my little experience, and I'm having allot of fun but..and here is where my question comes into place.
> ...


I wouldn't think too much about the kids, if you are getting good instruction.  That said, I am with JR 137.  If it were up to me, younger kids especially would not wear the same belts as adults, especially black belt.  And, I am not a fan of kids as young as 12 being awarded 2nd or 3 Dan.  That said, I am over 50, and some of my attitude comes from my experience when I was a teenager, where I was, at 14, among the youngest students allowed to train with adults, and even that was only because I was too big to fight in the children's class.  My former teacher did award black belts to children, but if, after they turned 15 they wanted to advance to adult black belt, they were demoted to red or green belt temporarily until the Master allowed them to test again for adult black belt.  But that was in the early 80s, and it wasn't Tae Kwon Do, and the minimum time for adults to get to black belt was 3 years, and very few students did it in 3 years for a number of reasons.  In practice, it took from 4 to 5 years for most adults.  So it makes sense that under those circumstances, there were very few black belts under 16 or 17.

So I am adjusting to this little kid black belt thing, as there are a lot of them at my current school.  Why?  Well, for one, because probably more than 80% of the students are kids.  Second, black belt while it is in theory a standard of excellence, in practice, at my school, the standard of excellence really starts at 2nd Dan.  That is my opinion, and my observation.  It isn't a knock on our provisional Black belts and 1st Dans.  I just think that black belt means different things in different styles.

So, forget the kids for now. How is the skill level of the adult black belts?  Do their techniques look refined?  Does it look like something you would aspire to in 2 to 3 years of training 3 or 4 times per week?  Or do their techniques look like crap, too?


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## CB Jones (Jul 7, 2018)

This is where JR 137 and I respectfully disagree.

And I admit that my opinion has a large bias due to my son.

But with that I use my son (13 years old) as an example....he started karate when he turned 4 years old...he was promoted to youth blackbelt at age 10.  He is naturally athletic, competitive and a hard worker.  He is at the dojo 4-5 nights a week for 3 hours per night plus training at home.  He tested for blackbelt along with other adults and was required to do everything the adults did.  The only thing different was that during the continuous free sparing portions of the test he was allowed to spar against other youth.

He met the standards required to earn his blackbelt and all the blackbelts in that lineage at the test agreed and promoted him.


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## mrt2 (Jul 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> This is where JR 137 and I respectfully disagree.
> 
> And I admit that my opinion has a large bias due to my son.
> 
> ...


It sounds like your son earned his black belt.  And, if every child trained that hard, I am sure JR 137 would have less of a problem.  But honestly, a lot of the kids aren't working that hard at Martial arts, and probably shouldn't as they risk overtraining.  But that said, I don;t know many adults training 15 hours a week in Karate or TKD, either.  (3 to 5 hours a week is more like what most people do, and some do even less)  With today's overprogramed youth, you are lucky if you can get a little kid to put in 2 hours a week in to martial arts.  Subtract from that summers off as many parents pull their kids out of martial arts over the summer so they can go to camp, vacation, etc...and you are looking at the possibility of very slow progress indeed.  Which is why some of us aren't crazy about the proliferation of black belts among children.

But let me ask you.  At what age did your son really start Karate?   I would wager, he might have enrolled on one of those Little Ninja, or Little Dragons, or something program, but it wasn't the full curriculum.


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## CB Jones (Jul 7, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> But let me ask you. At what age did your son really start Karate? I would wager, he might have enrolled on one of those Little Ninja, or Little Dragons, or something program, but it wasn't the full curriculum.



No...it was the full curriculum.  All beginners train together regardless of age and you progress at your own rate.  There are no kids programs.

At age 9 he was teaching forms to adult beginners.


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## mrt2 (Jul 7, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> No...it was the full curriculum.  All beginners train together regardless of age and you progress at your own rate.  There are no kids programs.
> 
> At age 9 he was teaching forms to adult beginners.


Training 3 hours a night at age 4?  Really?


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## CB Jones (Jul 7, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> Training 3 hours a night at age 4?  Really?



I'm sorry I misunderstood.....no he started training 3 hours a night when he was 8-9.


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## CB Jones (Jul 7, 2018)

My point is simply....if you meet that standard set for black belt....then you have earned it regardless of age.


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> My point is simply....if you meet that standard set for black belt....then you have earned it regardless of age.


A black belt is about more than memorising a bunch of moves


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> He met the standards required to earn his blackbelt and all the blackbelts in that lineage at the test agreed and promoted him.


 

The thing is you say that like that's something unique....all mcdojo lineages would agree and promote a kid as well...not saying that's the case with your boy but it's the case with the ops where below average kids are given black belts


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2018)

Hey man if you're getting good training then that's all that matters. I've been in clubs where the belts have been given to people because they're the instructors friends or I've seen kids promoted because the instructor works with their dad. I knew it was wrong but it didn't worry me because I knew I always worked my butt off for every belt I ever earned. I went to every class, listened hard and trained hard by myself so I knew that whenever I put on a new belt I had actually earned it myself which is what I wanted. I never wanted to be given anything because frankly there's no point in doing it if you're just given it without the work.

But the thing is. The kids are the money maker for most martial art schools. I can't fault an instructor for making some cash and yeah to me standards for kids should be lower because they've got lower attention spans, their bodies aren't fully developed and they can't remember as much in most cases. But I don't think kids should be given black belts even those kiddy ones because 2 reasons. 1) it creates a false impression to insiders like you said you expected these kids to be amazing because they had black belts on at that age and they weren't. Now THAT is the problem with martial arts. The belts are given when not deserved then the practitioners get worse and worse because these black belts aren't as good and they'll go onto teach students who again won't be as good because they've not had good instruction. Then the cycle goes on and on and on.

Second reason is the kids themselves. They'll think them self something special and go around bragging they're a black belt as kids do then most likely that'll cause a fight with a bully or just some punk trying to prove himself by taking on a black belt and the could very easily get beat then the kid gives up training because he thinks it doesn't work...well it does work the kids just as good as he thinks.

But anyway the overall point If you enjoy yourself at the club just don't worry about anything else just enjoy your training


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## pdg (Jul 8, 2018)

I'm confused...

Someone asks a question about a school, the general consensus is to observe the higher grades/ranks. As in, how do they perform, do you want to be like them.

And someone mentions kid black belts, there's no shortage of people saying it's not right, shouldn't happen, sign of bad school, a child can't possibly be capable of earning a real BB.



Then what happens?

Someone mentions rank.

Rank means nothing, train for you not a bit of cloth, a belt is for holding your trousers up - and so on and so forth.



So really people, which is it? 

Either a rank is a valid way of measuring ability and it's not a good thing when it gets misused and awarded to the undeserving

OR

rank is meaningless, in which case who cares if a 7 year old with 19 stripes on their black belt can't kick above the knee.



So there you go, challenge for the day.

Make up your mind.


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm confused...
> 
> Someone asks a question about a school, the general consensus is to observe the higher grades/ranks. As in, how do they perform, do you want to be like them.
> 
> ...


Rank isn't important for training but it's still wrong for kids to be going round wearing black belts claiming they're experts because like it or not belts are important to some people and whenever you mention martial arts to someone first thing they ask is what belt are you...and then outsiders come see these kids who look like trash wearing black belts and then people think that the style is rubbish because of these kids and ruins the reputation of traditional styles


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> A black belt is about more than memorising a bunch of moves



It is a rank awarded to someone who has proven to have met a certain standard set forth by someone or group.



Headhunter said:


> The thing is you say that like that's something unique....all mcdojo lineages would agree and promote a kid as well...not saying that's the case with your boy but it's the case with the ops where below average kids are given black belts



I understand.  But regardless a style has the right to set forth their standard and promote their students who achieve that standard.  If Joe Blow-itsu decides a student meets their standard for black belt....then that student is a black belt in Joe Blow-itsu.....it is silly to get upset about the rank of individuals in a style that you are not a member of.


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> It is a rank awarded to someone who has proven to have met a certain standard set forth by someone or group.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand.  But regardless a style has the right to set forth their standard and promote their students who achieve that standard.  If Joe Blow-itsu decides a student meets their standard for black belt....then that student is a black belt in Joe Blow-itsu.....it is silly to get upset about the rank of individuals in a style that you are not a member of.


Sure still doesn't mean they're any good


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> This is where JR 137 and I respectfully disagree.
> 
> And I admit that my opinion has a large bias due to my son.
> 
> ...


He sounds like the exception, not the rule. I think this is part of the equation that started younger students getting black belts. What else can you do with an exceptional student? However, what do you do with an average kid who has worked out as long, knows all the curriculum well, and wants to test for BB? After some time saturation sets in and it becomes the norm. I think it is very much the responsibility of the instructor since it can be a positive or negative reflection on the program.


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Sure still doesn't mean they're any good



Sure...but that that school's problem.

We have gone to tournaments and seen adult black belts who weren't any good.....doesn't change the fact that they are still black belts.


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Sure...but that that school's problem.
> 
> We have gone to tournaments and seen adult black belts who weren't any good.....doesn't change the fact that they are still black belts.


Let's not pretend. you don't actually have an opinion of your own on this. Let's be honest the only reason your so defensive is because your kid got one that's literally the only reason you're defending it. I'm not trying to be rude just stating a fact.

There's one big reason for kid black belts...money...it's as simple as that. Parents like going around saying their little Timmy is a black belt when bragging how great their kid is. Instructors should just be honest about it. I've spoken to plenty of instructors about it and they admit it. It's to keep the classes busy and encourage the others not because of the actual skill. I've been in martial arts for over 40 years and never heard any instructor say they genuinely believe a kid under 18 deserves a black belt


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Sure...but that that school's problem.
> 
> We have gone to tournaments and seen adult black belts who weren't any good.....doesn't change the fact that they are still black belts.


Of course that the reality of things. You are an experienced martial artist so you see it very differently from the average person setting in the bleachers. Do you not "worry" about how it reflects on your MA?


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> He sounds like the exception, not the rule.



I don't think so.  Its a smaller percentage that succeeds in meeting the standard....but that's the case in everything difficult.

IMO, what is important is to not drop your standards for promotion.

The 1st time, Jacob tested he blew all the other candidates away going through the forms, and demonstrating technique....then came the fighting part and during one of the fights he lost his temper......and they failed him for losing control of his emotions.  He had to go back 6 months later and re-test again.  One of the 1st Dan, complained to Jacob's instructor that she thought they were too tough on him because he was only 10.....in which the instructor pointed out that age is irrelevant.....they grade a 10 year old they same as a 30 year old.


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I don't think so.  Its a smaller percentage that succeeds in meeting the standard....but that's the case in everything difficult.
> 
> IMO, what is important is to not drop your standards for promotion.
> 
> The 1st time, Jacob tested he blew all the other candidates away going through the forms, and demonstrating technique....then came the fighting part and during one of the fights he lost his temper......and they failed him for losing control of his emotions.  He had to go back 6 months later and re-test again.  One of the 1st Dan, complained to Jacob's instructor that she thought they were too tough on him because he was only 10.....in which the instructor pointed out that age is irrelevant.....they grade a 10 year old they same as a 30 year old.


And that is exactly why kids shouldn't be given black belts....he failed because he lost his temper so came back 6 months later and got it....he'll still have the same temperament as he had the first time just did better at hiding it. That's the fact kids have tempers, they have egos, what happens a kid gets into an argument on the playground so he starts bragging "don't mess with me I'm a black belt" a Black belt can someone a huge amount of ego and arrogance. Heck it can happen with adults and with kids it's even more likely. I worked in schools for years and how many times did I hear that exact line off kids "don't mess with me I do karate" that's my main issue kids simply aren't mature enough for it


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Let's not pretend. you don't actually have an opinion of your own on this. Let's be honest the only reason your so defensive is because your kid got one that's literally the only reason you're defending it. I'm not trying to be rude just stating a fact.



Sure I admit my own bias.  But again I do think that if you set forth a standard...then stick to that standard and whoever achieves that standard has earned that rank..  And its silly to worry about the rankings of something that you are not even a part of.


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## pdg (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Rank isn't important for training but it's still wrong for kids to be going round wearing black belts claiming they're experts because like it or not belts are important to some people and whenever you mention martial arts to someone first thing they ask is what belt are you...and then outsiders come see these kids who look like trash wearing black belts and then people think that the style is rubbish because of these kids and ruins the reputation of traditional styles



So basically you're saying that rank is absolutely meaningless.

Except for when it means something, like it's on anyone but you.


Awesome, thanks for clearing that up...


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I don't think so.  Its a smaller percentage that succeeds in meeting the standard....but that's the case in everything difficult.
> 
> IMO, what is important is to not drop your standards for promotion.
> 
> The 1st time, Jacob tested he blew all the other candidates away going through the forms, and demonstrating technique....then came the fighting part and during one of the fights he lost his temper......and they failed him for losing control of his emotions.  He had to go back 6 months later and re-test again.  One of the 1st Dan, complained to Jacob's instructor that she thought they were too tough on him because he was only 10.....in which the instructor pointed out that age is irrelevant.....they grade a 10 year old they same as a 30 year old.


Very good Instructor.


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## JR 137 (Jul 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm confused...
> 
> Someone asks a question about a school, the general consensus is to observe the higher grades/ranks. As in, how do they perform, do you want to be like them.
> 
> ...


Simple - rank isn’t EVERYTHING, but it is SOMETHING.

And no one in this thread said to leave the school because there’s undeserving child black belts.  Everyone who addressed the OP said child black belts aren’t a rare thing and that she should focus on the quality of her training.  If her training is good, then stay, regardless of what the kids are doing.


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## pdg (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> And that is exactly why kids shouldn't be given black belts....



So maybe there's an age limit where rank becomes meaningless?

Maybe it only matters if you're under 18, or you're a woman, or you only have one arm...


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## pdg (Jul 8, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Simple - rank isn’t EVERYTHING, but it is SOMETHING.
> 
> And no one in this thread said to leave the school because there’s undeserving child black belts.  Everyone who addressed the OP said child black belts aren’t a rare thing and that she should focus on the quality of her training.  If her training is good, then stay, regardless of what the kids are doing.



I wasn't just on about this particular thread - more like across the forum.

If you can find anything like consistency I'll award you a cookie.


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## JR 137 (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> This is where JR 137 and I respectfully disagree.
> 
> And I admit that my opinion has a large bias due to my son.
> 
> ...


Your kid is an exception and certainly not the norm. Your kid’s dojo may also truly be the exception.  And there’s certainly no shortage of adults out there who have an inflated rank too.

I haven’t seen any schools that have the exact same syllabus for kids and adults.  I’m sure they’re out there, but I haven’t seen it.  Yours is the second one I’ve heard of.  The other one I’ve heard of was an Isshin Ryu school where the 12 year old student took the same test along with the adults and had to spar with the adults and meet the same standards as them.

We’ve had a very small number of junior black belts in the 2 dojos I’ve been a part of.  I can honestly say they all worked hard and could easily hold their own against kids their age and then some in an actual fight.  I had no problem with them earning that rank.  But I honestly felt like they should’ve had a distinct colored belt.  Again, that’s my personal issue that I may need to work on 

My solution to the junior black belt conundrum is eliminate it entirely.  Use a distinct color belt like gray.  But I’m just one guy who’s got no authority on the subject and wants no authority.  When the day comes that I run my own dojo and organization with my own curriculum, I’ll use a gray belt for junior black belts.  But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it


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## Deafdude#5 (Jul 8, 2018)

Bottom line....they the OP, stay in the school & observe what is there. Keep learning the material being taught but be intelligent about it. Do some studying on your own time & compare what you find with what you are learning.

As for the other stuff...take it or leave it. You are not really in a position to affect the instructor’s decisions.
Everyone has an opinion about it. Kids are kids...temperamental as they develop into maturity. Some adults never reach that goal & still have ego issues.

Best & good luck!


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> My solution to the junior black belt conundrum is eliminate it entirely. Use a distinct color belt like gray. But I’m just one guy who’s got no authority on the subject and wants no authority. When the day comes that I run my own dojo and organization with my own curriculum, I’ll use a gray belt for junior black belts. But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it



And they have a different belt.  Youth belt is brown with a large black stripe in the center and the ends of the belt are black.  In the hierarchy, they outrank adult brown belts but are below adult 1st Dan.  But they are considered Black Belts and they are recorded in the lineage of black belts.  

The style/lineage started in the 50's.  It has grown to around 10-11 different dojos.  Jacob was the 239th Black belt of the style/lineage.


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> So basically you're saying that rank is absolutely meaningless.
> 
> Except for when it means something, like it's on anyone but you.
> 
> ...


Having a bit of trouble reading are we?

Okay I'll say it even simpler for you. Please ask if you want me to repeat anything. 

It doesn't mean anything among practitioners but to outsiders it does matter. It matters to them because they don't know a good martial artist from a bad one...all they have to go on is the belt. Everyone knows brown and black belt are high levels so they see a black belt they assume they'll be very good but when they see below average they think that's because of either the style or the instructor


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Everyone knows brown and black belt are high levels so they see a black belt they assume they'll be very good but when they see below average they think that's because of either the style or the instructor



But that is a problem of lack of standards regardless of age.


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## pdg (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Having a bit of trouble reading are we?
> 
> Okay I'll say it even simpler for you. Please ask if you want me to repeat anything.
> 
> It doesn't mean anything among practitioners but to outsiders it does matter. It matters to them because they don't know a good martial artist from a bad one...all they have to go on is the belt. Everyone knows brown and black belt are high levels so they see a black belt they assume they'll be very good but when they see below average they think that's because of either the style or the instructor



But do you really fail to see the issue here?

On one hand, you say it means nothing to (some) practitioners so what they wear should have no bearing on you.

On another hand, every practitioner represents their art and school, so they should deserve their belt (which doesn't matter to them) in case an outsider sees them.

On yet another hand, you say kids shouldn't have black belts, but then you (and others) say that belts are meaningless, or only mean anything within the school. So where's the issue with say my 6 year old daughter having her black belt? She fully met the requirements of the dedicated curriculum that's unrelated to any other system. It's surely a valid belt, that doesn't matter, except you'd say she shouldn't have it because child black belt...

Then another hand (mutants ahoy) - brown belt is a mid level in some systems, high in others. Black is a novice grade in some, the pinnacle in others. So it doesn't matter, but it does matter, and to an outsider the only reason they judge on brown or black is because they've been told to.

Red belt too - that was the first belt after white I got in kickboxing, the lowest tested grade - but it's just below black in tkd. There are 3 brown grades in kbx, and no brown whatsoever in tkd.

So again, how can you say belts mean nothing and yet say that some people (or kids) don't deserve what they're given/sold?

While there's no consistency in grade expectations across schools/arts I really don't think you (or anyone else) have any place at all to say whether something is or isn't something...


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Having a bit of trouble reading are we?
> 
> Okay I'll say it even simpler for you. Please ask if you want me to repeat anything.
> 
> It doesn't mean anything among practitioners but to outsiders it does matter. It matters to them because they don't know a good martial artist from a bad one...all they have to go on is the belt. Everyone knows brown and black belt are high levels so they see a black belt they assume they'll be very good but when they see below average they think that's because of either the style or the instructor


You are encroaching on where I have a problem with some who have started their own style or school. They get their feelings hurt by the one instructor they have ever had experience with and start their own thing with poor knowledge or structure. All of the sudden you have a poor quality, very narrow minded group of students and eventually black belts.


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## mrt2 (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> No...it was the full curriculum.  All beginners train together regardless of age and you progress at your own rate.  There are no kids programs.
> 
> At age 9 he was teaching forms to adult beginners.


Training 3 hours a night at age 4?  Really? It sounds hard to believe.


JR 137 said:


> Your kid is an exception and certainly not the norm. Your kid’s dojo may also truly be the exception.  And there’s certainly no shortage of adults out there who have an inflated rank too.
> 
> *I haven’t seen any schools that have the exact same syllabus for kids and adults.  I’m sure they’re out there, but I haven’t seen it.*  Yours is the second one I’ve heard of.  The other one I’ve heard of was an Isshin Ryu school where the 12 year old student took the same test along with the adults and had to spar with the adults and meet the same standards as them.
> 
> ...


OK, this is what I observe so far from my TKD school.  If by curriculum, you mean basic knowledge of basics, forms, sparring combos, and 1 steps, then yes, the children are supposed to demonstrate the same knowledge as adults.  But on breaks, they don't have to break the same boards I had to break to advance.  I saw this with my own eyes.  They took the boards from two different boxes.  The adults and teenagers got the standard boards.  The kids ages 12 and under got really thin boards that break with minimal power.  Second, in sparring, they don't really ask children to hold their own against adults.  (almost never.  One time an assistant instructor had me spar against a child, but he came up to me and told me this was  NO CONTACT. sparring, as if I needed to be told not to hit a child.


----------



## Superperson (Jul 8, 2018)

First I would like to say thank you to everyone who commented! I loved the long back and forth discussion about what rank means and how one should achieve it. Very good reading.
As far as my situation, I'll continue to go as per advice given here. It's true I cannot control how often they give out black belts to kids and even if I don't agree with that practice, it doesn't mean the school isn't a good one. I defiantly think children should be given a grey belt or some other color for their higher ranks before they reach adulthood so they can test for black belts.
I guess since I'm new to the school and to martial arts in general and I came into the school with a newbie ignorance I had thought black belt means YEARS of training and you must be pretty darn good to achieve that. So seeing the children black belts was just off putting to me. I feel like schools giving children black belts is really just a confusing thing for new students to see. I understand them needing money, and by giving children these high ranking belts means more money coming in. I just think for adults like me its gives us the wrong impression. (sigh) like others said its up to the school as to how they do ranks. I know that when I get me yellow belt and higher I will have earned it with hard work and tanning!

Like I said, my teacher is good, you can tell he cares about his school and loves teaching. I defiantly learn allot and love going! I love how I get to learn both Teakwondo and Hapkido together! I choose Hapkido for the piratically in a real fight situation but I love the kicks of the other. 
Thanks everyone! Next I'll have to ask a question about my exercise regime for tanning.


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## mrt2 (Jul 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> But do you really fail to see the issue here?
> 
> On one hand, you say it means nothing to (some) practitioners so what they wear should have no bearing on you.
> 
> ...


I think most people here agree belts mean more than nothing, but they aren't everything.  

IMO, the problem with 6 year old black belts is this.  We are talking about a martial art here.  Which implies not just a competency in curiculum, but also a proficiency in combat as well as a certain athleticism and power.  Can your 6 year old who weighs 50 lbs kick with the same power as fit 22 year old at the same level who weighs 150 or 175 lbs?  Could that person hold his or her own against someone that large?  I dare say the answer is, probably not, though I hear that there are 7 year old Muy Thai fighters in Thailand who are pretty bad ***, but that is a whole other kettle of fish.


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## pdg (Jul 8, 2018)

Superperson said:


> First I would like to say thank you to everyone who commented! I loved the long back and forth discussion about what rank means and how one should achieve it. Very good reading.
> As far as my situation, I'll continue to go as per advice given here. It's true I cannot control how often they give out black belts to kids and even if I don't agree with that practice, it doesn't mean the school isn't a good one. I defiantly think children should be given a grey belt or some other color for their higher ranks before they reach adulthood so they can test for black belts.
> I guess since I'm new to the school and to martial arts in general and I came into the school with a newbie ignorance I had thought black belt means YEARS of training and you must be pretty darn good to achieve that. So seeing the children black belts was just off putting to me. I feel like schools giving children black belts is really just a confusing thing for new students to see. I understand them needing money, and by giving children these high ranking belts means more money coming in. I just think for adults like me its gives us the wrong impression. (sigh) like others said its up to the school as to how they do ranks. I know that when I get me yellow belt and higher I will have earned it with hard work and tanning!
> 
> ...



If you're enjoying it and getting what you want, it matters not what I or anyone else thinks in reality.

There are students at the school I go to who could very well be classified as mcstudents - sloppy technique, lack of knowledge, higher grade than me. So what?

I'm happy with what I get, I always aim to surpass what I thought I was capable of - my belt means something to me but someone else's means nowt to me.

I truly think that while some people put all the responsibility on the instructor, or the school, or the system they're incorrect. Everything is far more about the student.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

Superperson said:


> Hi,
> I'm new to this forum and I have a question.
> 
> I'm currently taking Hapkido with a little Taekwondo mixed in. (My school has you learn both if you take Hapkido.) I'm very new to this style and new to my current school. I want to start by saying I think my teacher is great, or he seems to be that way with my little experience, and I'm having allot of fun but..and here is where my question comes into place.
> ...


I haven't read the other responses yet, so I'm probably repeating what others have said. I'll preface all of this by saying two things: ranks only mean what those involved agree they mean, and I don't really like kids' black belt ranks (irrationally and entirely without a reason I can explain and justify). So I'll be arguing both sides - everyone else can sit down for a while and watch me duke it out with myself. 

Would it mean anything different to you if those belts were a different color? If those young'uns were wearing mauve or chartreuse belts (very character-building, chartreuse!), would you see the situation differently? In many cases, instructors (and organizations) simply use the color black to mean "highest ranks available), so a kid's black belt only means they've reached the highest set of ranks available for kids. So, since there _has to_ be some "highest rank" for kids (assuming we teach kids), we have to have something to use to designate it, and black works as well as anything.

On the other hand, especially in the US (can't speak for Europe, but I don't think it's commonly the same in Asia), we've lent a certain status to the color black. To us, it tends to imply expertise, rather than just rank. So, as you did, many people would expect a child with a black belt is pretty badass to manage that rank so young. And the reality is, they're probably not very badass, at all. That cheapens the feel of what black belt is for those working toward the adult rank.

On yet another hand, that last point might actually be useful. Maybe the adults, getting used to "black belt" just being a rank, rather than a semi-mystical conferment, will put more importance upon what it takes to earn a rank, rather than the rank, itself.

Okay, I think I'm done arguing. 
No I'm not.
Oh, do shut up.


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## pdg (Jul 8, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> Can your 6 year old who weighs 50 lbs kick with the same power as fit 22 year old at the same level who weighs 150 or 175 lbs?  Could that person hold his or her own against someone that large?



She is neither expected to nor tested to.

She's not ranked in an 'art' that contains adults. You're not allowed to partake of the lessons over 7 years old. So, she's not at the same level as that 22 year old, because he couldn't hold the same rank.

It's a different system.

We're not talking piano lessons here, where there is a set expectation for everyone.

Could I, with my (above) tkd blue belt grapple up with a BJJ blue (or lower) belt? Not likely.

Could a BJJ black belt outkick me? Not likely.

So, why should my 6 year old holding a black belt in it's own style ever be compared to any other practitioner of any other system at all?

Why should her holding a black belt reflect poorly on tkd, or BJJ, or knitting?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm confused...
> 
> Someone asks a question about a school, the general consensus is to observe the higher grades/ranks. As in, how do they perform, do you want to be like them.
> 
> ...


Yes.

Is that clearer?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Sure still doesn't mean they're any good


Agreed. Black belt rank never necessarily means that, as a general concept.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Let's not pretend. you don't actually have an opinion of your own on this. Let's be honest the only reason your so defensive is because your kid got one that's literally the only reason you're defending it. I'm not trying to be rude just stating a fact.
> 
> There's one big reason for kid black belts...money...it's as simple as that. Parents like going around saying their little Timmy is a black belt when bragging how great their kid is. Instructors should just be honest about it. I've spoken to plenty of instructors about it and they admit it. It's to keep the classes busy and encourage the others not because of the actual skill. I've been in martial arts for over 40 years and never heard any instructor say they genuinely believe a kid under 18 deserves a black belt


I can't agree with this, HH. As I said in my earlier post (which is later than your post, confusingly), something has to be the "top rank" for kids. Why does it matter so much to us if that rank uses a black belt? Within the NGAA, they progress kids through "youth" ranks (yellow, blue, green) then to "adult" ranks (yellow, blue, green, purple, brown, black). It's pretty much impossible for a kid to get to purple (only possible within the adult curriculum) and impossible to get black (only eligible at age 16). But what would really be different if they had decided to use yellow, purple, black as the rank colors for youth? I mean, other than our reaction to that third rank.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> And that is exactly why kids shouldn't be given black belts....he failed because he lost his temper so came back 6 months later and got it....he'll still have the same temperament as he had the first time just did better at hiding it. That's the fact kids have tempers, they have egos, what happens a kid gets into an argument on the playground so he starts bragging "don't mess with me I'm a black belt" a Black belt can someone a huge amount of ego and arrogance. Heck it can happen with adults and with kids it's even more likely. I worked in schools for years and how many times did I hear that exact line off kids "don't mess with me I do karate" that's my main issue kids simply aren't mature enough for it


I know some adults who have tempers, too. If they learn to control ("hide") them, should they also not be ever eligible for BB?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> So maybe there's an age limit where rank becomes meaningless?
> 
> Maybe it only matters if you're under 18, or you're a woman, or you only have one arm...


Wait, I have one arm...oh, wait, there's another one on the other side. My rank is safe.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> My solution to the junior black belt conundrum is eliminate it entirely. Use a distinct color belt like gray. But I’m just one guy who’s got no authority on the subject and wants no authority. When the day comes that I run my own dojo and organization with my own curriculum, I’ll use a gray belt for junior black belts. But I’ll cross that imaginary bridge when I get to it


This is the kind of solution I come back to when I consider it (and for all the same reasons you do - including the personal issues). Of course, it's as hypothetical for me as for you, since I don't teach kids.


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## mrt2 (Jul 8, 2018)

I think this is a problem TMA schools have created for themselves.  By marketing themselves to children as young as 4 or 5, parents expect to see something for all those checks paid to the school, and kids expect to see something for the work they put in.  I am with JR 137 on this. My solution would be to go with regular belts up to black, and when kids reach that level, give them their own color, that is distinct from any other color the school offers.  Treat the rank as a provisional black belt.  Then when they reach a certain age, say 15 or 16, if they can hold their own with adult black belts, let them take the test for black belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

Superperson said:


> First I would like to say thank you to everyone who commented! I loved the long back and forth discussion about what rank means and how one should achieve it. Very good reading.
> As far as my situation, I'll continue to go as per advice given here. It's true I cannot control how often they give out black belts to kids and even if I don't agree with that practice, it doesn't mean the school isn't a good one. I defiantly think children should be given a grey belt or some other color for their higher ranks before they reach adulthood so they can test for black belts.
> I guess since I'm new to the school and to martial arts in general and I came into the school with a newbie ignorance I had thought black belt means YEARS of training and you must be pretty darn good to achieve that. So seeing the children black belts was just off putting to me. I feel like schools giving children black belts is really just a confusing thing for new students to see. I understand them needing money, and by giving children these high ranking belts means more money coming in. I just think for adults like me its gives us the wrong impression. (sigh) like others said its up to the school as to how they do ranks. I know that when I get me yellow belt and higher I will have earned it with hard work and tanning!
> 
> ...


Just to clarify the range I've seen in how black belt ranks are used (and I assume there are extremes beyond my experience). I've seen a Kuk Sool Won (I think I spelled that right) school where BB was achievable in 1 1/2 to 2 years. It was a level of beginning competence, and mostly indicated the person had a foundation. In my primary art, average time to BB is a bit over 7 years (it took me more than 12), and other styles take significantly longer. I recall one style where the absolute minimum: testing once a year, and 7 ranks to black, so if you tested and passed every single year, you could get it in 7 - average was somewhere in the 10-12 year range. In Japan, apparently it's more commonly given the meaning of "starting competence" than "expertise".

So BB doesn't mean just one thing, if you look across the world of martial arts that award that rank. Even within a single art, different groups (and independent programs) may have significantly different standards for different ranks, which might or might not change what BB rank means. As an example, it takes much longer to get to the first colored belt in my curriculum than my instructor's (8-12 months, versus a few weeks), but that's only because I cram a lot more requirements into that first rank. By BB, there's likely less difference (though still some - from me BB doesn't confer teaching certification), but it still won't be identical because I have a different curriculum and set of requirements. If you evaluated my BBs (had I any currently) on his standards, they wouldn't pass his tests. Nor would his pass my test.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I think this is a problem TMA schools have created for themselves.  By marketing themselves to children as young as 4 or 5, parents expect to see something for all those checks paid to the school, and kids expect to see something for the work they put in.  I am with JR 137 on this. My solution would be to go with regular belts up to black, and when kids reach that level, give them their own color, that is distinct from any other color the school offers.  Treat the rank as a provisional black belt.  Then when they reach a certain age, say 15 or 16, if they can hold their own with adult black belts, let them take the test for black belt.


I don't really see a reason kids' ranks can't be wholly separate (rather than just the terminal rank). Give me a young kid to train, and I could award a series of belts up to "youth black" (for differentiation, I could use the belts that have the white horizontal band). Then, when they reach the age to enter the adult curriculum (let's say they're allowed to start at age 14), they'd keep their current youth rank (whatever it is, up to and including that black belt with white band) until they were ready to test for adult yellow. It shouldn't take long, as they'd have already learned a bunch of the material along the way, and would simply have to test to that level. They might even know enough to test immediate for yellow or even higher. I'd let them test progressively through all the ranks until they hit one they can't pass (at the adult level), then that's where they'd stop to train until they were ready to test. I'd do the same for an adult entering my curriculum from another NGA curriculum.


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> IMO, the problem with 6 year old black belts is this. We are talking about a martial art here. Which implies not just a competency in curiculum, but also a proficiency in combat as well as a certain athleticism and power. Can your 6 year old who weighs 50 lbs kick with the same power as fit 22 year old at the same level who weighs 150 or 175 lbs? Could that person hold his or her own against someone that large? I dare say the answer is, probably not, though I hear that there are 7 year old Muy Thai fighters in Thailand who are pretty bad ***, but that is a whole other kettle of fish.



So....if my 5'3" 101 lb wife cannot kick as hard as that 150 lb fit 22 year old....she can never be a black  belt?  

As a 50+ year old can you kick with the same power as a fit 150 -175 lb black belt?  If not, is your ceiling brown belt?


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This is the kind of solution I come back to when I consider it (and for all the same reasons you do - including the personal issues). Of course, it's as hypothetical for me as for you, since I don't teach kids.



To me...there is no conundrum.  You set a standard....if someone achieves that standard, they earn that rank.


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## mrt2 (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> So....if my 5'3" 101 lb wife cannot kick as hard as that 150 lb fit 22 year old....she can never be a black  belt?
> 
> As a 50+ year old can you kick with the same power as a fit 150 -175 lb black belt?  If not, is your ceiling brown belt?


Actually, if I have a problem as someone over 50, it won't be power, but rather speed and athleticism.  I have power, but I am slow, and I cannot jump as high or kick as high as a 22 year old.  If they told me that because of my age and limitations with high kicks, or I couldn't hold my own in sparring with younger folks of the same rank, my ceiling was brown belt, I suppose I would have to live with that.


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> Actually, if I have a problem as someone over 50, it won't be power, but rather speed and athleticism.  I have power, but I am slow, and I cannot jump as high or kick as high as a 22 year old.  If they told me that because of my age and limitations with high kicks, or I couldn't hold my own in sparring with younger folks of the same rank, my ceiling was brown belt, I suppose I would have to live with that.



Ok...because that is your school's standard.

But let's say your school decides you do meet their standard and promotes you.....are you then a black belt?  

If someone from a different unrelated school decides you do not meet their standards...are you still a black belt?


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## mrt2 (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Ok...because that is your school's standard.
> 
> But let's say your school decides you do meet their standard and promotes you.....are you then a black belt?
> 
> *If someone from a different unrelated school decides you do not meet their standards...are you still a black belt*?


That is an interesting question, but if I am a head instructor from a MA school and a student shows up with a black belt, but obviously doesn't meet my requirements, then I suppose not.  When I showed up at my current school and told my instructor my former rank in my former school, he told me I still needed to start as a white belt.


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> That is an interesting question, but if I am a head instructor from a MA school and a student shows up with a black belt, but obviously doesn't meet my requirements, then I suppose not.



If you are a black belt in judo and go to a TKD school....You are still a black belt in Judo.  The hard work and the accomplishment of meeting that standard is not erased just because you become a white belt in TKD. 

The black belt is not a universal rank among all the arts, styles, and schools.  It is specific to the school that awarded it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> So....if my 5'3" 101 lb wife cannot kick as hard as that 150 lb fit 22 year old....she can never be a black  belt?
> 
> As a 50+ year old can you kick with the same power as a fit 150 -175 lb black belt?  If not, is your ceiling brown belt?


This is a discussion I've been having (mostly with myself) lately. How to handle inherent differences. I'd expect a bit more from a youngish, strong, tall guy than an older, weaker, lighter, shorter guy. Early on in my curriculum, I have some very rudimentary "fitness" requirements, just to make sure folks have some basic needs met before they progress. One of them is 10 Turkish get-ups. I want it to be with weight, but haven't yet found the right formula for how much, which probably needs to be based on % of bodyweight, and probably differs by gender.

If I did breaking, I'd want to have a different standard for a 6'2" 30-year-old than a 5'1" 50-year-old. I don't want the first person to have it too easy, nor to make it excessively challenging for the second. I'm not sure how I'd manage that, but it's what I'd want.


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> When I showed up at my current school and told my instructor my former rank in my former school, he told me I still needed to start as a white belt.



He didn't accept your rank within his system.....that does not mean you did not earn the rank from your former school...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> To me...there is no conundrum.  You set a standard....if someone achieves that standard, they earn that rank.


That seems straightforward, but is it? If an adult has to spar adults, what do you do when the adult is the size of a child (big child, small adult)? It's not a conundrum, but it's not as straightforward to me as simply letting children spar children and keeping the other conditions the same. I'm not saying that's not a solid solution, just that I see complications in any solution. Given those complications, one (perhaps easier though not necessarily better) answer is to simply not award the same rank. Of course, I'd also expect not to have to complete the same specific requirements.


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## CB Jones (Jul 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That seems straightforward, but is it?



Yes.

The standard is set for youth blackbelt.  You test and if you meet that standard....you are awarded a youth blackbelt.  You rank above Brown but below Adult Black Belt 1st Dan but you are still recognized by the organization as a black belt.


Let me add I could see the conundrum of creating the standards...but once they are set it should be straightforward.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Yes.
> 
> The standard is set for youth blackbelt.  You test and if you meet that standard....you are awarded a youth blackbelt.  You rank above Brown but below Adult Black Belt 1st Dan but you are still recognized by the organization as a black belt.
> 
> ...


Oh, I agree entirely that it's straightforward when we're looking at different ranks between adult and youth. I misread your previous post, then. I think we're on the same page.


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I know some adults who have tempers, too. If they learn to control ("hide") them, should they also not be ever eligible for BB?


I think there is a big difference between controlling one's temper and hiding a bad temper. Certainly someone hiding a bad temper should be fleshed out in routine class thus delaying testing at any rank.


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## pdg (Jul 8, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I think there is a big difference between controlling one's temper and hiding a bad temper. Certainly someone hiding a bad temper should be fleshed out in routine class thus delaying testing at any rank.



Isn't hiding it and controlling it the same thing?

To successfully hide it, you need to control it in front of others...


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## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2018)

pdg said:


> Isn't hiding it and controlling it the same thing?
> 
> To successfully hide it, you need to control it in front of others...


I see controlling it a abating the emotion. With hiding it, the magnitude is still there just not as apparent.


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## drop bear (Jul 8, 2018)

I knew a kid at 16 who had over 30 boxing fights and was an amateur champion.

Now boxing doesn't have belts but as a veteran in the sport he probably would have deserved one if they did.
(Had a couple of title belts though)

So yeah. Kids can do everything an adult can do in martial arts.

Belts earned quickly and crap technique is pretty mcdojoie though


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## drop bear (Jul 8, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> And that is exactly why kids shouldn't be given black belts....he failed because he lost his temper so came back 6 months later and got it....he'll still have the same temperament as he had the first time just did better at hiding it. That's the fact kids have tempers, they have egos, what happens a kid gets into an argument on the playground so he starts bragging "don't mess with me I'm a black belt" a Black belt can someone a huge amount of ego and arrogance. Heck it can happen with adults and with kids it's even more likely. I worked in schools for years and how many times did I hear that exact line off kids "don't mess with me I do karate" that's my main issue kids simply aren't mature enough for it



You are stretching the hypotheticals there a bit.

Our female MMA fighter controlled her screaming **** fits in around a year or so.


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## JR 137 (Jul 8, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> And they have a different belt.  Youth belt is brown with a large black stripe in the center and the ends of the belt are black.  In the hierarchy, they outrank adult brown belts but are below adult 1st Dan.  But they are considered Black Belts and they are recorded in the lineage of black belts.
> 
> The style/lineage started in the 50's.  It has grown to around 10-11 different dojos.  Jacob was the 239th Black belt of the style/lineage.


What happens when he reaches adult age (as defined by his school)?  Does he test for an adult black belt?  Or does he automatically get an adult black belt?

No criticism either way, just curiosity.

Our junior black belts have a black belt with a white horizontal stripe (Oreo belt as I’ve heard it called).  When they’re adult age (16?), they keep their junior rank until our CI feels they’re fully ready to test for adult black belt.  There’s a gap in the curriculum between junior black belt and adult black belt, so the students need to learn that stuff as well as an adult black belt candidate, and they’ll be sparring with the adult black belts and adult black belt candidates.


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## CB Jones (Jul 9, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> What happens when he reaches adult age (as defined by his school)? Does he test for an adult black belt? Or does he automatically get an adult black belt?



He will have to test after he is 16 to promote to adult black belt.

The ranking actually has two Youth ranks -the hierarchy - Youth Black belt (under 13) - Junior Black Belt (under 16) - Adult Black Belt (16 and over)

He has to test for each one.  Jacob just promoted in June to Junior Black Belt when he turned 13 and at 10 1/2 years old he was the youngest to achieve Youth Black Belt within the lineage.

So he has tested twice for Youth and once for Junior.


Jacob was also very lucky with his timing.  He started when he was 4....but his Sensei usually doesn't take kids that young, but the Sensei's 5 year old son was about to start coming to class and he wanted him to have someone in the class around his age....so he allowed Jake to start that early.  So Jake has pretty much grew up in the Dojo.


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## axelb (Jul 9, 2018)

my judo school had junior grade up to black belt. 
Once you reached 16 you went to senior green (about half way up the adult rank to black) then you had to work your way to adult black belt. 

I think it's quite hard for a beginner to determine red flags, but there are probably a few tells. 

high grades/senior students don't look capable of executing techniques; in many cases a competent head teacher has set up a club and has someone skills, but you should see others with a high skill standard. 

teacher is evasive when you ask about experience/ credentials; any one worth being taught by should be approachable and not vague about experience/background

cost: check around the local clubs for costs, they should be comparable, and not involve lengthy contracts. 

how long to a "teacher" grade; in most cases that is a black belt. less than 3years is usually dodgy ground.


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## now disabled (Jul 9, 2018)

The age old debate on rankings ...

That will never (imo) be fully resolved as for each solution another problem will arise. For example me now, Yes I do hold dan ranks could I know go up against a fully fit holder of a higher or even middle grade kyu rank ?, I could more than likely out think them (maybe) but in reality I'd end up in a heap. So do I still hold Dan ranking? I did the hard graft and took the knocks the set backs the self doubt and all the rest, to the young and the up and coming I'm just a busted up has been or never was lol.  

It did bother me for a while but now I let it slide and when anyone says to me that they are a BB I rarely comment and just let them bask in their own glory lol as if it something they need then it their need it does not make them any better a person than I am


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## Druid11 (Jul 9, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I think this is a problem TMA schools have created for themselves.  By marketing themselves to children as young as 4 or 5, parents expect to see something for all those checks paid to the school, and kids expect to see something for the work they put in.  I am with JR 137 on this. My solution would be to go with regular belts up to black, and when kids reach that level, give them their own color, that is distinct from any other color the school offers.  Treat the rank as a provisional black belt.  Then when they reach a certain age, say 15 or 16, if they can hold their own with adult black belts, let them take the test for black belt.



My instructor often says that Karate specifically and martial arts, in general, are for adults, but that kids can benefit from them.  That doesn't necessarily mean that kids should be taught everything adults are.  I'm certainly biased but I think my school (Isshinryu Karate for reference) does a pretty good job of dealing with the issue.  Children, and to a lesser extent teens, do have a different curriculum than adults.  Mostly they kept from doing anything that might cause them long-term joint or growth plate injury.  Also, the younger the kids the more simplified the curriculum is and the fewer potentially dangerous (either to themselves or others) techniques are taught and we also incorporate a certain amount of Judo throws and Aikido joint locks into our curriculum.  

Because of the modified curriculum and the fact that our black belt test probably aren't appropriate for children (they last 24 hours) we do have junior black belts so, kids can still feel a sense of accomplishment.  You must be 13 to get a junior black belt and the actual belt is markedly different than a full black belt.  It is black but it has a wide white stripe running down the middle of it.  When they reach 16 they can test for a full black belt.  Assuming the instructor feels they're ready for it.  You don't automatically get a full black belt by virtue of turning 16. We also have "extra" belts for kids, so they can test more often than adults so they can have goals to work towards (no testing fees so making money is not the reason) and don't get bored or frustrated staying at one belt for a long time.

To be honest I don't think kids are emotionally ready even if they are physically ready to be black belts.  And depending on the martial art, they probably shouldn't get the full curriculum, a lot of kids aren't emotionally mature enough to know when to use or not use a technique.  Nor do I think that kids should be in the same classes as adults.  One of the things that frustrated me when I was looking to get back into martial arts was the number of schools (mostly TKD) that split classes by rank not age.  I don't want to train with 5-year-olds.  I don't think it's good for my training nor do I think it's good for them.  One of the reasons I picked the Dojo I currently attend was that they had adult only classes.


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## now disabled (Jul 9, 2018)

To the original poster 

You like your instructor so that a plus 

You obviously like the environment so that a plus 

You feel (I think) your learning so that a plus 

For the negatives you stated I would ask :- 

Who is grading the students? ............ Your Instructor or a grading panel? 

You mentioned bad form etc  where are you basing that on and against who are you basing it, returns in a way to the above who is grading? 

You mention that it is not wholly one art but Hapkido with TKD added, I ask (and I know little of the latter but more of the former although not in any great depth) which art is your Instructor qualified in ...both ? and why does he/she feel the need to do both or add to Hapkido? 

You mention Kids could I ask why are you comparing a Kid to adults?

I'm not judging in any way at all

If you answer what I have asked then I will give the reasons for the questions


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## marques (Jul 10, 2018)

I consider kids with black belts a big red flag. It takes 5-10 years of serious training to be any good. Where these kids got the time and seriousness to be that good? Not to say the maturity to know how and when to hurt people...

A red belt (I mean, an advanced student) should be able kick (or do whatever they have learned) on a live, reactive opponent. And that one badly fails a static target?

...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

marques said:


> I consider kids with black belts a big red flag. It takes 5-10 years of serious training to be any good. Where these kids got the time and seriousness to be that good? Not to say the maturity to know how and when to hurt people...
> 
> A red belt (I mean, an advanced student) should be able kick (or do whatever they have learned) on a live, reactive opponent. And that one badly fails a static target?
> 
> ...


But what if those are not requirements at a given school? I considered using red as one of my belt colors at one time, and it would have meant something entirely different (which might or might not have included the ability to kick at a resisting target). And what if black belt doesn't mean "any good", but "can do the basic moves"?

I have my personal bias about how I like ranks to be used, but I have to admit that others don't have to share that to be "right". Since I wouldn't be bothered by a school that uses no ranks, nor by a school that decided to use orange, red, and grey belts (colors I've never used in training) to mean whatever they want, I accept that they're also not wrong to use black, brown, purple, green, blue, or yellow to mean whatever they want.


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## dvcochran (Jul 10, 2018)

Druid11 said:


> My instructor often says that Karate specifically and martial arts, in general, are for adults, but that kids can benefit from them.  That doesn't necessarily mean that kids should be taught everything adults are.  I'm certainly biased but I think my school (Isshinryu Karate for reference) does a pretty good job of dealing with the issue.  Children, and to a lesser extent teens, do have a different curriculum than adults.  Mostly they kept from doing anything that might cause them long-term joint or growth plate injury.  Also, the younger the kids the more simplified the curriculum is and the fewer potentially dangerous (either to themselves or others) techniques are taught and we also incorporate a certain amount of Judo throws and Aikido joint locks into our curriculum.
> 
> Because of the modified curriculum and the fact that our black belt test probably aren't appropriate for children (they last 24 hours) we do have junior black belts so, kids can still feel a sense of accomplishment.  You must be 13 to get a junior black belt and the actual belt is markedly different than a full black belt.  It is black but it has a wide white stripe running down the middle of it.  When they reach 16 they can test for a full black belt.  Assuming the instructor feels they're ready for it.  You don't automatically get a full black belt by virtue of turning 16. We also have "extra" belts for kids, so they can test more often than adults so they can have goals to work towards (no testing fees so making money is not the reason) and don't get bored or frustrated staying at one belt for a long time.
> 
> To be honest I don't think kids are emotionally ready even if they are physically ready to be black belts.  And depending on the martial art, they probably shouldn't get the full curriculum, a lot of kids aren't emotionally mature enough to know when to use or not use a technique.  Nor do I think that kids should be in the same classes as adults.  One of the things that frustrated me when I was looking to get back into martial arts was the number of schools (mostly TKD) that split classes by rank not age.  I don't want to train with 5-year-olds.  I don't think it's good for my training nor do I think it's good for them.  One of the reasons I picked the Dojo I currently attend was that they had adult only classes.



One thing my GM never does in regular weekly classes is restrict who can come to class. However, the second (later) class is considered an adult oriented class. The burden is put on the Instructor to balance the workout dependent on who is there. It also makes for a much more personal workout when you know the Instructor is working directly with you. 
You mentioned the emotional readiness of children testing for BB. I agree and that is why they receive a conditional black belt. 
You also mention that you do not like working out with kids. Part of any class we have will have the kids sitting at times while working with other ages. They have to set up straight, cannot use the wall and have to be quiet and still. This is a real challenge for some that is teaching them many things (some which they should get at home but aren't). This is also true of many adults I see. 
Today's world is so busy and full of stuff to do we forget that there is a real value in learning how to be still and quiet to listen, watch and learn.


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## Superperson (Jul 10, 2018)

now disabled said:


> To the original poster
> 
> You like your instructor so that a plus
> 
> ...



Who is grading? I believe its a mix of a grading panel and the teacher together as I've seen the table and the other judges when the child was given his black belt title. Although I've never asked so I could be wrong. 

Bad from - I suppose I'm basing that on my own expectations. Given me lack ok experience my expectations could be to high or completely off base. I just assumed a 2nd degree black belt would be able to preform kicks pretty spot on. 

As for why I'm begin taught both TKD and Hapkido...thats a good question. From what I understand the teacher feels they intertwine well together and Hapkido can benefit from learning the kicks and such from the other. I liked it because I wanted to learn TKD and Hapkido so its nice I get some of the TKD mixed in. 

Here is what his website says about his qualifications...
Attained a 5th DAN Certificate for Tae Kwon Do from President of Korea Tae Kwon Do Association and President of Kukkiwon.
Attained a 4th DAN Certificate for Hap Ki Do from Korea Hapki Martial Arts Federation

As for the last question, I was comparing kids to adults because I assumed they were learning the same curriculum and by looking at a black belt child im looking at what my skills might be when I reach such a stage. 

Hope I answered all your questions sufficiently.


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## Druid11 (Jul 10, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> One thing my GM never does in regular weekly classes is restrict who can come to class. However, the second (later) class is considered an adult oriented class. The burden is put on the Instructor to balance the workout dependent on who is there. It also makes for a much more personal workout when you know the Instructor is working directly with you.
> You mentioned the emotional readiness of children testing for BB. I agree and that is why they receive a conditional black belt.
> You also mention that you do not like working out with kids. Part of any class we have will have the kids sitting at times while working with other ages. They have to set up straight, cannot use the wall and have to be quiet and still. This is a real challenge for some that is teaching them many things (some which they should get at home but aren't). This is also true of many adults I see.
> Today's world is so busy and full of stuff to do we forget that there is a real value in learning how to be still and quiet to listen, watch and learn.



All our classes are taught by an instructor, quite often the head instructor.  I've seen in some other schools where the kids' classes are taught by high ranked teens or even intermediately ranked adults.  Our school doesn't do things like that so I don't see the kids as getting a lesser level of instruction.  My issues with training with kids aren't really solely because of behavior or focus, though I don't particularly want to wait around in class until the kids are quite and under control.  I help with the kids' classes and I actually find the students that have been coming for awhile to generally be really well behaved and very respectful for the most part.  But we have kids on the autism spectrum and other kids that aren't neurotypical and sometimes the kids' classes do become bogged down trying to deal with behavior issues, which would annoy me if I was actually taking the class.

My issue with actually taking classes with kids is that I feel I have to restrict the level of my own training, especially when training with partners.  If I a school only offers mixed age classes and the majority of their students are children once in a while you'll end up as the only adult in a class.  I have no desire to spar a kid.  I don't want to work joint locks with a child and I definitely don't want to grapple with one, which are all things that my school does, in the adult class.  I don't think it's appropriate for a ten-year-old to hold a pad for me, and I am not going to get as much out of my workout if I can't use a fraction of the power I usually do.  There are also issues about what can be discussed in class.  If we're talking about self-defense in the kids class we usually phrase it as a bully or an adult they don't know.  I don't think it's appropriate to discuss with young kids what you can do if someone is on top of you trying to rape you.  So no, I don't like training with children and if I was participating in another sport I wouldn't be expected to train with kids.  How often do you see a mixed age (as in 5-adult) soccer or softball league?  I enjoy helping with their classes, but when I take a class I prefer it to be with other adults or at least older teens. 

On the flip side, kids are kids and should have fun.  Their classes should be fun, even if they are also being taught discipline.  We often play games in class with the kids.  Their fun shouldn't be hampered by a bunch of adults who don't really want to play a silly game.


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## Druid11 (Jul 10, 2018)

Superperson said:


> Who is grading? I believe its a mix of a grading panel and the teacher together as I've seen the table and the other judges when the child was given his black belt title. Although I've never asked so I could be wrong.
> 
> Bad from - I suppose I'm basing that on my own expectations. Given me lack ok experience my expectations could be to high or completely off base. I just assumed a 2nd degree black belt would be able to preform kicks pretty spot on.
> 
> ...



In my experience just because a kid did a technique sloppily doesn't necessarily mean they aren't capable of doing correctly and cleanly.  While it's part of the reason I don't personally think that kids should be full black belts (let alone 2nd-degree black belts), it may be possible that kid can do a spectacular kick, they were just feeling lazy or contrary that day.  Often when I help I see kids do things sloppy even when I have seen them do the same technique perfectly the class before. Kids are immature and they'll be sloppy or lazy because they just feel like that day. I'll usually call them out on it (as do the instructors and other helpers) and tell them I've seen them do better.  Most of the time that will spur them to do it correctly...at least for a while.  

My point being, that just because a child did a technique wrong or sloppily doesn't necessarily reflect on the level of instruction or the criteria to become a black belt or above.  But on the other hand, I would question why an instructor is letting a 2nd-degree black belt get away with sloppy technique if they know they can do better.  Do other adult students perform techniques cleanly?  While I don't agree with kids getting full black belts for reasons I think I've already enumerated, I don't think that giving out black belts to kids necessarily means it's a poor school.  In general, if you enjoy training and feel like you're getting something out of it, then I wouldn't worry too much about what other students look like, especially the kids.


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## marques (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> But what if those are not requirements at a given school? I considered using red as one of my belt colors at one time, and it would have meant something entirely different (which might or might not have included the ability to kick at a resisting target). And what if black belt doesn't mean "any good", but "can do the basic moves"?



It is a fair question. That leads again to the question what is a black belt? Or even, what is a martial art?

To me martial art implies application in some sort of ‘war’, thus opposition is needed (or is it a tango? ). 

Black belt, to my eyes, is someone with some ‘war’ skill, someone that understand enough to progress on his own. To hit (or grab, whatever is your speciality) a live opponent is still a basic move to me (in martial arts). I did not say a hell of a well trained fit opponent! 

But... who am I to set standards?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

marques said:


> It is a fair question. That leads again to the question what is a black belt? Or even, what is a martial art?
> 
> To me martial art implies application in some sort of ‘war’, thus opposition is needed (or is it a tango? ).
> 
> ...


Your view of BB is similar to mine - I like your idea of "enough to progress on his own." But I think that's not the level used by some. What I'd expect of a blue belt (second color rank) might be what some expect for the rank they use a black belt for. And it'd bug me, but really doesn't make much difference that I can see beyond that.


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## JR 137 (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> But what if those are not requirements at a given school? I considered using red as one of my belt colors at one time, and it would have meant something entirely different (which might or might not have included the ability to kick at a resisting target). And what if black belt doesn't mean "any good", but "can do the basic moves"?
> 
> I have my personal bias about how I like ranks to be used, but I have to admit that others don't have to share that to be "right". Since I wouldn't be bothered by a school that uses no ranks, nor by a school that decided to use orange, red, and grey belts (colors I've never used in training) to mean whatever they want, I accept that they're also not wrong to use black, brown, purple, green, blue, or yellow to mean whatever they want.


While I agree, isn’t breaking pretty much a staple in TKD and the various Korean arts’ practice and rank tests?  I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a TKD or TSD test without a board breaking requirement.  I don’t know enough about Hapkido to make a generalization.  I’m not a fan of it being a testing requirement personally, but if their standards are X amount of boards using A,B, and C techniques for Z rank, then those standards should be evident whenever you see someone wearing Z belt.  Maybe not every single person at every possible moment, but if you see a trend of people consistently not being able to do what they’ve allegedly been required to do and prove they’re capable of it along the way, then “Houston, we have a problem.”  I mean, to an outsider such as myself, breaking seems to be one of their gold standards.  They sell it as proving the power their strikes have without hitting each other with full power.  I don’t know of any art that puts nearly as much emphasis on breaking as TKD and TSD.


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## pdg (Jul 10, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> While I agree, isn’t breaking pretty much a staple in TKD and the various Korean arts’ practice and rank tests? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a TKD or TSD test without a board breaking requirement.




There's no board breaking requirement for colour belt (kup) rank tests in our TKD organisation.

There is for dan tests...


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## now disabled (Jul 10, 2018)

Superperson said:


> Who is grading? I believe its a mix of a grading panel and the teacher together as I've seen the table and the other judges when the child was given his black belt title. Although I've never asked so I could be wrong.
> 
> Bad from - I suppose I'm basing that on my own expectations. Given me lack ok experience my expectations could be to high or completely off base. I just assumed a 2nd degree black belt would be able to preform kicks pretty spot on.
> 
> ...




Sorry if you took it I was demanding answers that was not my intention 

I asked the questions really to get you to ask yourself them. 

As for grading tat was merely to ascertain that the Instructor was not the sole arbiter as I have seen that happen. Hopefully with a panel (depending on how that is made up and from where) it should be more balanced. 

Yes form is important (basics) and most certainly a 2nd dan should be competent that way ...but don't look at kids as another poster said kids are kids and really imo don't base anything on them base your ideas of from and your goals on adults, they should be more consistent and give a better picture for you. Even if you are able to visit another school and look at their higher grades and dan ranks form etc. 

Obviously your teacher is of the opinion that Hapkido is missing something that he is introducing TKD which is good and bad imo ...you being a beginner could get a bit confused as to what comes from what system. I'm not being critical at all but overload early on can be non-productive imo. I know very little of those arts but I would assume (dangerous word) that the stances could well be different, ok in the real world does that matter, possibly not, in the dojo and as far as form goes (grading etc) yes it does as any grading panel or teacher examining should pick that up and it could make the difference from attaining a grade and not! maybe I am being to nit picky but as a beginner you could get confused! 

Your Instructors details I am not going to comment on as I will not disrespect any others ranks and I have not seen them "perform" 

Lastly again don't look at kids no matter what their rank. I like some others do have issues with kids holding senior ranks ...Look at adults and not just the senior ranks but the middle to upper kyu grades that will give you a better idea and more of a goal (or not) to strive towards


good luck in your studies and I hope all goes well ...remember nothing comes instantly and the time patience has to be put in to attain the start of proficiency. I guess in plain speak you gotta do the hard yards!!!


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## WaterGal (Jul 10, 2018)

"Black belt" means different things in different styles and organizations. In TKD, it usually means that you understand the basic techniques, and is commonly earned after just a couple of years, there's really no minimum age, and it's very common to see kids as young as 8 or 9 getting them. (though kids under 16 get a different certificate called a "poom" certificate, and some schools give them a belt that's half red to reflect them being a "junior" black belt).

Hapkido also often has minors getting black belt rankings, though it's a less popular martial art among children overall compared with TKD, and often takes longer to earn rank.

All that being said, the only think you've said that I'd find inherently concerning is a 2nd degree black belt that can't do a roundhouse kick - especially if your school teaches TKD together with HKD, which presumably means you do a lot of kicking. Now, some kids in that tween age will hit a growth spurt where their center of mass changes, or their legs grow faster then the rest of them, and their balance goes all to **** for a while. Maybe that's what's going on. But if you notice a consistent pattern of high-ranking people being unable to perform relatively basic techniques, I'd start getting concerned.


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## pdg (Jul 10, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> "Black belt" means different things in different styles and organizations. In TKD, it usually means that you understand the basic techniques, and is commonly earned after just a couple of years, there's really no minimum age, and it's very common to see kids as young as 8 or 9 getting them. (though kids under 16 get a different certificate called a "poom" certificate



Different TKD organisations have different rules...

In our ITF, there's no such thing as a poom, but there are minimum age limits for at least green (6th kup) and black (1st dan).

It's also impossible to attain first dan in "a couple of years" due to minimum time in grade.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> While I agree, isn’t breaking pretty much a staple in TKD and the various Korean arts’ practice and rank tests?  I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a TKD or TSD test without a board breaking requirement.  I don’t know enough about Hapkido to make a generalization.  I’m not a fan of it being a testing requirement personally, but if their standards are X amount of boards using A,B, and C techniques for Z rank, then those standards should be evident whenever you see someone wearing Z belt.  Maybe not every single person at every possible moment, but if you see a trend of people consistently not being able to do what they’ve allegedly been required to do and prove they’re capable of it along the way, then “Houston, we have a problem.”  I mean, to an outsider such as myself, breaking seems to be one of their gold standards.  They sell it as proving the power their strikes have without hitting each other with full power.  I don’t know of any art that puts nearly as much emphasis on breaking as TKD and TSD.


I think it is a standard testing requirement. My point was that - like a weight-bearing fitness requirement - perhaps it should actually be tied somehow to body size. A big guy can blast boards with less technical skill and get away with it, where the same wouldn't work for someone much smaller. So, I guess it's a matter of deciding what it's meant to test. If it's simply the ability to break boards of a certain strength, then it's not necessary to adjust for size (or age). If it's to test board-breaking skill (assuming that to require good technique) then it probably does make sense to adjust for size/strength. I don't know how you'd do that fairly, which points out a problem with figuring out where to set standards.

It's a lot like the sparring requirements present in many styles. If the requirement is to "hold your own" with X number of people of the rank you're testing for, should that be people selected at random, or matched to the size/age/fitness of the person testing? Again, it depends what you decide the purpose of that test is.


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## pdg (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> perhaps it should actually be tied somehow to body size



Dan test board breaking for us is based on age, sex and weight.

A small late teen girl wouldn't be expected to make the same break as me.


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## wab25 (Jul 10, 2018)

These discussions can get pretty rank, can't they... 

This is thread is one of the reasons I like these boards... it made me think a bit deeper and refine my own thoughts / beliefs on this subject. Thats the whole point of participating here, right?

I have always been in the camp of "rank only means something to the school that awarded it and the organization to which the school belongs." Outside of that, it means nothing. However, the questions about consistency that were raised in this thread, made me rethink a bit. Rank does have a meaning.

For me the issue is one of context. As an individual martial artist, rank only means something to the school that awarded it and the organization to which the school belongs. This has not changed. But, there is another context. The school and organization. When a school awards a black belt, they are announcing to everyone, their standards. Whether they are awarding a kid or an adult, the school and organization are defining what their standards are. They may publish whatever standard they want, but their black belts will actually show everyone what the standard truly is.

People with no martial arts have one set of expectations. When they see a black belt from an organization, they will make up their mind whether that is good or bad and most importantly, whether they want to give their money to train or send their kids. Martial artists will look at that standard as well... we each make our own judgments about the standards we see in the other schools.

I don't think this changes much, for the individual martial artist. Rank still means nothing outside your school. But, if you are ever in a position, to award or recommend someone for black belt, it would be good to consider that your school, organization and art will be judged by people watching that black belt. It may or may not be right, but it is how the world works. When you award a black belt, your are saying something to everyone who comes in contact with this person, whether they study or not. Maybe we should consider what we are saying.


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## CB Jones (Jul 10, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> While I agree, isn’t breaking pretty much a staple in TKD and the various Korean arts’ practice and rank tests? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a TKD or TSD test without a board breaking requirement.



My son’s school/org is a Korean Karate/TKD style and they do not do board breaking.


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## mrt2 (Jul 10, 2018)

Board breaking is part of my TKD school's testing.  They didn't make me break a board for my first test, but every test after they have.  And, when I practiced Tang Soo Do, I had to break for every test after orange belt, and they got progressively harder.  They included spinning kicks, high kicks, and speed breaks.  Just looking at the curicullum, of my current school,  won't have to do a break with a spinning or jumping kick until I get to high purple belt.  That said, I wonder how some of the weaker high purples and brown belts among the little kids in our school did it, but as I said, I think they break thinner boards than the adults and bigger teens.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

pdg said:


> Dan test board breaking for us is based on age, sex and weight.
> 
> A small late teen girl wouldn't be expected to make the same break as me.


How do you graduate it - what are the variations? I'm really just trying to get the concept, so if it's complicated you can give me the gist of it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

wab25 said:


> These discussions can get pretty rank, can't they...
> 
> This is thread is one of the reasons I like these boards... it made me think a bit deeper and refine my own thoughts / beliefs on this subject. Thats the whole point of participating here, right?
> 
> ...


I agree. I'll also say that we don't all draw the same conclusion from that person wearing the BB. I've heard people (who were watching classes or demos) talking about how it just takes so long to get a student to BB in a given school, and another school can do it faster. They seem to think it means the same thing both places, and the one who "gets them there" faster is better at teaching. This seems to reinforce your thought that people outside the community think of BB as equivalent, regardless of the source, and presents an entirely different result.


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## now disabled (Jul 10, 2018)

Can I ask (probably a dumb question but pray humour me) why is such a big thing placed on breaking ?


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## mrt2 (Jul 10, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Can I ask (probably a dumb question but pray humour me) why is such a big thing placed on breaking ?


It is mostly a test of accuracy and power, or alternately, accuracy and speed, if the test includes a speed break.  It is a strange thing, though since we almost never practice breaking in regular classes, though we do paddle or target drills fairly often.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Can I ask (probably a dumb question but pray humour me) why is such a big thing placed on breaking ?


The benefits I can think of (as someone who has never practiced breaks) include accuracy ("don't kick the holder!") and the difference between a "striking" kick and a "pushing" kick. A board held by a person will be much harder to break with a pushing kick.


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## now disabled (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The benefits I can think of (as someone who has never practiced breaks) include accuracy ("don't kick the holder!") and the difference between a "striking" kick and a "pushing" kick. A board held by a person will be much harder to break with a pushing kick.



Thanks I don't come from that background and was just curious what you say makes sense tho


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## mrt2 (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The benefits I can think of (as someone who has never practiced breaks) include accuracy ("don't kick the holder!") and the difference between a "striking" kick and a "pushing" kick. A board held by a person will be much harder to break with a pushing kick.


It also teaches people to snap the kick through the board.  Put another way, when gauging distance, aim for a spot a few inches behind the board.  On speed breaks (only held with one hand, either from the top or the bottom), you really have to focus on hitting the board not just hard, but fast, or the board will fall over, but not break.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> It also teaches people to snap the kick through the board.  Put another way, when gauging distance, aim for a spot a few inches behind the board.  On speed breaks (only held with one hand, either from the top or the bottom), you really have to focus on hitting the board not just hard, but fast, or the board will fall over, but not break.


I can see that about the penetration - I use a heavy bag or shield to teach that. The speed breaks would seem to be even more focused on the push-versus-strike issue. It's possible to push a heavy bag and make it look good, so people can think they're hitting hard when they aren't. Pushing a board just looks like you pushed a board - not so impressive.


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## mrt2 (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I can see that about the penetration - I use a heavy bag or shield to teach that. The speed breaks would seem to be even more focused on the push-versus-strike issue. It's possible to push a heavy bag and make it look good, so people can think they're hitting hard when they aren't. Pushing a board just looks like you pushed a board - not so impressive.


Heavy bag drills and paddle, or target drills is what we usually do in class.  The boards are only for the test.


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## JR 137 (Jul 10, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Can I ask (probably a dumb question but pray humour me) why is such a big thing placed on breaking ?


My school doesn’t have any breaking in the curriculum nor testing (that I know of anyway).  We do breaking every now and then, just to change things up.  Some of us compete at our organization’s annual tournament, and breaking is an optional competition there.  Just as a background for my experience with it, I guess...

Breaking teaches some pretty important lessons.  Focus, timing, confidence, striking through the object, accuracy, hand (or other surface) position, and so on.

Breaking gives pretty honest feedback.  A heavy bag is more forgiving of flaws in technique IMO.  That doesn’t mean breaking is some huge feat to behold though.

Here’s some examples of why I like it...
The first time I tried to break boards with a knife hand strike, it hurt like hell. I felt the bones in my hand hit each other, and it gave me this odd vibration feeling; kind of like hitting a baseball with the wrong spot on an aluminum bat.  Why?  I didn’t hold my hand tight enough.  I’ve got a heavy bag plenty of times with it and never felt that.  When the hand is loose like that, you’re losing power.  Breaking boards pointed it out real quick.

A friend was breaking a two stacks of boards simultaneously with hammer fist (so right hand broke a stack and left hand broke another stack at the same time).  She couldn’t get through more than 3 on each side (yeah, first world country problem).  Me watching at the right angle revealed exactly why - she was hitting with her hands at an angle rather than straight on.  After a few conscientious tries to straighten out her hands, she finally got it - and through 6 boards on each side.

Breaking gives a different feedback.  It’s not a be all, end all by any stretch.  It also teaches great lessons (when you’ve got enough boards to make it pretty challenging).  You could definitely get away with never doing it and be more than fine though.

And there’s nothing like punching through a bunch of boards that you didn’t think you could do.  My teacher put 5 boards on the cinder blocks one night and said “give it a try.  I know you can do it.”  I honestly thought there was no way I was getting through all 5.  I put everything out of my mind, silenced any doubts in my head, and committed with everything I had.  I’ve got to admit it was a great feeling when I broke them.  It wasn’t any record breaking feat by any means, but I outdid what I thought I could do.


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## CB Jones (Jul 10, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Can I ask (probably a dumb question but pray humour me) why is such a big thing placed on breaking ?



In case you ever need to punch your way out of a buried casket.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> How do you graduate it - what are the variations? I'm really just trying to get the concept, so if it's complicated you can give me the gist of it.



I don't know how it's graduated, I've just been told the requirements vary based on the candidate...


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## now disabled (Jul 11, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> In case you ever need to punch your way out of a buried casket.



Ok you have watched kill bill lol


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think it is a standard testing requirement. My point was that - like a weight-bearing fitness requirement - perhaps it should actually be tied somehow to body size. A big guy can blast boards with less technical skill and get away with it, where the same wouldn't work for someone much smaller. So, I guess it's a matter of deciding what it's meant to test. If it's simply the ability to break boards of a certain strength, then it's not necessary to adjust for size (or age). If it's to test board-breaking skill (assuming that to require good technique) then it probably does make sense to adjust for size/strength. I don't know how you'd do that fairly, which points out a problem with figuring out where to set standards.
> 
> It's a lot like the sparring requirements present in many styles. If the requirement is to "hold your own" with X number of people of the rank you're testing for, should that be people selected at random, or matched to the size/age/fitness of the person testing? Again, it depends what you decide the purpose of that test is.




I haven't fully read through the responses, so this may have already been said.

I don't see why one should adjust for size/age/weight. This is comign from someone who is 5'6 and between 130-140 pounds (much less than most 'fighters'). IMO, if a black belt is expected to be able to punch with X force, and I am unable to do that because I weigh less than most people, I shouldn't be awarded that rank. An old sensei of mine told me "I dont have any child black belts. I don't have any issue with that idea, but I expect a child black belt to be better at sparring than an adult brown belt. If he's not, then he's missing something, and hasn't yet earned his black belt." I don't expect to be treated differently because of my weight, most female martial artists that I know don't expect to be treated differently because of their gender, and children shouldn't be treated differently for the same reason. Doing otherwise is an unfair bias against that person (by not respecting them) and against others (by expecting more of them.

Regarding your statement about "If the requirement is to "hold your own" with X number of people of the rank you're testing for, should that be people selected at random, or matched to the size/age/fitness of the person testing?" If a requirement for me was a kumite, and someone could not participate because of their size (again, I am 5'6-5/7 and 130-140 pounds, very short and skinny for a martial artist), I would walk out on that test, and lose respect for the tester. If the system requires me to be able to hold my own with someone of a certain skill level, I God Damn better be able to hold my own with that individual, and create strategy on the fly to handle their advantages, or else I do not deserve to be the same rank as them.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> Dan test board breaking for us is based on age, sex and weight.
> 
> A small late teen girl wouldn't be expected to make the same break as me.


Then she shouldn't have the same rank as you. If she's not able to output the minimum power required, why should she have that rank?
Or, if the issue is technique, then the amount that she's able to output should be enough for you to also achieve that rank. By separating it, it's ageism, sexism, and weightism.

Edit to add something: I also would personally find it offensive. As I mentioned in my last post, I am particularly small in most ways. I also trained with an amateur sumo wrestler in an old dojo (so much bigger than me) and reached black belt before him. If someone told me that I did not have to do as much as others because of that, I would be offended by that, and put in an active effort to reach their requirements. If I knew those requirements varied, or found out afterwards, I would not accept the belt, until I reached the requirements that the largest individual had to reach. And I would be annoyed, angry, and upset at my sensei for suggesting that was not necessary. If I was given the black belt anyway, I would not be able to look at my fellow black belts in the eye, at shame that I was pretending to be one of them, or look at the colored belts, knowing that some of them could accomplish what I did, but that would not count for them as a black belt requriement.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I haven't fully read through the responses, so this may have already been said.
> 
> I don't see why one should adjust for size/age/weight. This is comign from someone who is 5'6 and between 130-140 pounds (much less than most 'fighters'). IMO, if a black belt is expected to be able to punch with X force, and I am unable to do that because I weigh less than most people, I shouldn't be awarded that rank. An old sensei of mine told me "I dont have any child black belts. I don't have any issue with that idea, but I expect a child black belt to be better at sparring than an adult brown belt. If he's not, then he's missing something, and hasn't yet earned his black belt." I don't expect to be treated differently because of my weight, most female martial artists that I know don't expect to be treated differently because of their gender, and children shouldn't be treated differently for the same reason. Doing otherwise is an unfair bias against that person (by not respecting them) and against others (by expecting more of them.
> 
> Regarding your statement about "If the requirement is to "hold your own" with X number of people of the rank you're testing for, should that be people selected at random, or matched to the size/age/fitness of the person testing?" If a requirement for me was a kumite, and someone could not participate because of their size (again, I am 5'6-5/7 and 130-140 pounds, very short and skinny for a martial artist), I would walk out on that test, and lose respect for the tester. If the system requires me to be able to hold my own with someone of a certain skill level, I God Damn better be able to hold my own with that individual, and create strategy on the fly to handle their advantages, or else I do not deserve to be the same rank as them.



This comes back (again) to what you consider a rank to mean...

If you treat it as much like an academic qualification, with a set standard to reach to pass, then your opinion is perfectly valid.

But if you treat it as more of a personal accomplishment and test based on the person it's something different.

There's also the fact that having a minimum standard is just fine - on the subject of breaking something "you have to be able to punch with X force". Nothing wrong with that.

But say a slight woman can do that and it takes 100% of her effort, she's earned it.

For me, that could be a 20% punch. I'd sail the test without thinking. Not much of a test is it? Have I truly _earned_ it? Would I really deserve the pass if it's supposed to be a true test?

I'd say no. There's no challenge.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Then she shouldn't have the same rank as you. If she's not able to output the minimum power required, why should she have that rank?
> Or, if the issue is technique, then the amount that she's able to output should be enough for you to also achieve that rank. By separating it, it's ageism, sexism, and weightism.



See my previous post.

'They' could well meet the minimum, but it wouldn't be physically possible for them to do the same maximum as me.


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## now disabled (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> This comes back (again) to what you consider a rank to mean...
> 
> If you treat it as much like an academic qualification, with a set standard to reach to pass, then your opinion is perfectly valid.
> 
> ...



Is it not a very "today thing" that people are graded and want to be graded (yes some who truly want to know where they at, others so they think what they are paying for actually shows results:- if that makes sense) and that any curriculum is going to be flawed in some way or be picked up on in some way by some one (I'm not having a go at any thing in particular here ). 

Is it or could it not be that a school needs to have "X" number of BB (or indeed any colour they choose) to see themselves as relevant and thereby pull in the new students? Thereby survive ? 

I know that a very simplistic view however could it be a modern wanting gratification and satisfaction thing ?


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

@kempodisciple - you seem to have a desire to want to prove that you can overcome being smaller than average. Nothing wrong with that motivation, but maybe not everyone always measures themselves against others...

There's a big guy in my class who is younger than me, there's no point measuring myself against him (he's about 6" taller than me and probably almost double my weight).

Should I try to make myself do the same breaks and techniques as he can?





Even if that means I'd have to lower the standards I've set for myself?


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Is it not a very "today thing" that people are graded and want to be graded (yes some who truly want to know where they at, others so they think what they are paying for actually shows results:- if that makes sense) and that any curriculum is going to be flawed in some way or be picked up on in some way by some one (I'm not having a go at any thing in particular here ).
> 
> Is it or could it not be that a school needs to have "X" number of BB (or indeed any colour they choose) to see themselves as relevant and thereby pull in the new students? Thereby survive ?
> 
> I know that a very simplistic view however could it be a modern wanting gratification and satisfaction thing ?



If I'm putting myself into a test, I want to be tested. I don't want to meet the minimum standard.

On an earlier test I received a pass. My first response was to ask what I did wrong. Where did I lose marks so that I didn't get 'credit' or 'distinction'.

I'd say our tests are set up so that with effort the average person can pass. I don't want to be that easy on myself...


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## now disabled (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> If I'm putting myself into a test, I want to be tested. I don't want to meet the minimum standard.
> 
> On an earlier test I received a pass. My first response was to ask what I did wrong. Where did I lose marks so that I didn't get 'credit' or 'distinction'.
> 
> I'd say our tests are set up so that with effort the average person can pass. I don't want to be that easy on myself...




I am not criticizing you or the like


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I am not criticizing you or the like



I didn't take it as a criticism.

I was just stating my reasons for testing. If those reasons make me self gratifying then so be it - there are plenty of things I do for self gratification.........


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## now disabled (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> I didn't take it as a criticism.
> 
> I was just stating my reasons for testing. If those reasons make me self gratifying then so be it - there are plenty of things I do for self gratification.........




No I'd put you and your goals not as self gratification ....more your need with in yourself to be the best you can be and to me that is a martial arts concept often misunderstood ...Your path is your path not anothers and your best ( what but hard work and studying ) may be well above anothers or below but that is to me not the point it is what and where you see your path and where you see your goals to be


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## _Simon_ (Jul 11, 2018)

Yeah it's a tricky one hey...

In one sense it makes sense for each rank to have its standards and requirements, it's what defines it.

But on the other I've heard of a few styles which award ranks based on RELATIVE progress, and relative to the person's capabilities.

This to me makes total sense, but is incredibly tricky to measure and keep track of... Everyone will have different capabilities and limitations (based on age, strength levels, body's limitations, disabilities or impairments), so it makes sense to look at the student and see that they meet the curriculum based on their own personal capacity and progress. It just takes a really awesome instructor to be able to keep track of all the students and to really know them well.

And I think it's nice that it makes martial arts more available to everyone. But it's a bit of a catch 22... in once sense you want there to be a standard and for each rank to mean and stand for something. But not everyone is the exact same, and can only perform with what they've got...

Interesting!


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## now disabled (Jul 11, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah it's a tricky one hey...
> 
> In one sense it makes sense for each rank to have its standards and requirements, it's what defines it.
> 
> ...




You to me have hit a really good and valid point ...no two people are alike or have the same capabilities 

My two girls are both the same dan rank now but are totally different in their styles one is more flowing and natural and the other is more technical but they are both deserving of being the same rank (ok I am biased being Dad but I didn't award them their ranks lol)


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

now disabled said:


> No I'd put you and your goals not as self gratification ....more your need with in yourself to be the best you can be and to me that is a martial arts concept often misunderstood ...Your path is your path not anothers and your best ( what but hard work and studying ) may be well above anothers or below but that is to me not the point it is what and where you see your path and where you see your goals to be



There's simply no point measuring myself against someone else, I'm not them.

Being 40+, can I ever realistically believe I have the same physical capabilities as a dedicated 25 year old who has been training for 15+ years?

I have a physical job and attend class a minimum of 3 times a week, can an office worker who only has time for one lesson a week expect to have the same condition as me?

While there's the "way of life" thing around, MA can only really be a partial way of life that can influence other parts. People have jobs, school, families and myriad other things to live for - is it actually possible now to be a full time martial artist?


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## now disabled (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> There's simply no point measuring myself against someone else, I'm not them.
> 
> Being 40+, can I ever realistically believe I have the same physical capabilities as a dedicated 25 year old who has been training for 15+ years?
> 
> ...




I so so agree with your last statement 

In theory it is possible to be a full time martial artist (there again we get into the definitions of what is a full time Martial artist ...I'm not trying to start an argument there lol) but as you rightly state we all have to live and survive put bread on the table etc and that is not always easy and can come into conflict if anyone is "full time" 

I listened to a sensei talk years ago and they said (para phased) it was easier for them to teach full time as their partner had a well paid job. They also went on to say that when they taught they had to accept that not all the students would have the same dedication to the art as them or want to live and breathe it as they did or practice train as they had done with their sensei. When asked if that meant letting their standards drop they answered no but they have to be re-evaluated as it the students coming that pay for the dojo etc 

dunno if that makes any sense


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I so so agree with your last statement
> 
> In theory it is possible to be a full time martial artist (there again we get into the definitions of what is a full time Martial artist ...I'm not trying to start an argument there lol) but as you rightly state we all have to live and survive put bread on the table etc and that is not always easy and can come into conflict if anyone is "full time"
> 
> ...



No, it makes sense.

There's a lot going around about standards slipping and how it might damage the arts - but so what?

If someone with less ability than me holds a higher grade, why should that affect me in the slightest? It doesn't mean I'm not going to try my best.

To operate, a school needs students. Without them it simply can't stay open.

People in general want to see progression with their activities - whether that's real progression in my eyes or not doesn't really matter. So someone gets promoted who I think isn't really that good - so what?

They keep turning up, they keep paying.

That means the school stays open and I can afford the lessons.

If I don't allow myself to coast, I don't care if 99% of other students are crap and uncoordinated. If I don't allow their performance to influence the standards I set for myself why does it really matter?

As a bad example, say someone says "I can do 100 push-ups". But they're doing them with their bum in the air, their back sagging, not going through full range of motion, actually doing little more than bobbing their head.

They're only cheating themselves, not me. Their poor form doesn't devalue what I can do. If they got a badge for doing 100 push-ups and I got a badge too, but mine were better - what real impact does that have on anything at all?

So a member of the public says TKD is crap because they saw a black belt fail a kick. Big whoop. That person who failed that kick might very well be helping to subsidise my continued learning.


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## now disabled (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> No, it makes sense.
> 
> There's a lot going around about standards slipping and how it might damage the arts - but so what?
> 
> ...



I agree and your last comes back to the teacher having to re-evaluate ... ok if the person with their back end in the air should be gently reminded lol that may be another way lol but if tey choose to ignore that it their choice. 

Schools as you say have to pay their bills and always have (well ok way back they would have been part of a lords domain but still they would have had to "perform" as such) schools will always turn out the good the bad and the mediocre that is the way , It not just the teacher that is at fault the student plays just as important a roll ... it a two way street imo ...the teacher has to have the skill and knowledge to impart ...the student has to have the capabilities and make the effort to absorb etc


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## now disabled (Jul 11, 2018)

An example of a two way street lol

A younger lad came to as class I that night was taking. He was a jack the lad (thought he was anyway lol) and my middle daughters new beau (we won't go into my first thoughts on that lol). I suggested he came along and that as I was taking the class (my sensei was back home at the time) as no one else wanted to, he would get an idea what my daughter did and why she was a slightly different person in the dojo to outside it lol. 

Long story cut short the beau got taken down by daughter and younger daughter (which was not to his liking at the time lol) but after we got home and a few days later he came to me and asked if he could join properly. He did and now he is my son in law lol (he still has to sit below his wife lol) but he actually grasped the concept of he could learn and he wanted to learn to share a concept with my daughter (she can still take him lol mind you I haven't seen then in a dojo for a while ) and it worked. Yes I coached him and yes at home I was hard on him but he took it and understood why maybe at the time he grumbled occasionally lol but he did gett the two way street ... I would help him if he wanted that help and in a class he would learn from my sensei (more than one incidently) if he was minded to absorb and learn.

Incidently my daughters would both have to sit below me in the line. I do still just about hold higher rank but there again I can no longer participate so really rank means nothing (well it does as I'm still Dad lol) in reality  

might make no sense at all just a family experience


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I haven't fully read through the responses, so this may have already been said.
> 
> I don't see why one should adjust for size/age/weight. This is comign from someone who is 5'6 and between 130-140 pounds (much less than most 'fighters'). IMO, if a black belt is expected to be able to punch with X force, and I am unable to do that because I weigh less than most people, I shouldn't be awarded that rank. An old sensei of mine told me "I dont have any child black belts. I don't have any issue with that idea, but I expect a child black belt to be better at sparring than an adult brown belt. If he's not, then he's missing something, and hasn't yet earned his black belt." I don't expect to be treated differently because of my weight, most female martial artists that I know don't expect to be treated differently because of their gender, and children shouldn't be treated differently for the same reason. Doing otherwise is an unfair bias against that person (by not respecting them) and against others (by expecting more of them.
> 
> Regarding your statement about "If the requirement is to "hold your own" with X number of people of the rank you're testing for, should that be people selected at random, or matched to the size/age/fitness of the person testing?" If a requirement for me was a kumite, and someone could not participate because of their size (again, I am 5'6-5/7 and 130-140 pounds, very short and skinny for a martial artist), I would walk out on that test, and lose respect for the tester. If the system requires me to be able to hold my own with someone of a certain skill level, I God Damn better be able to hold my own with that individual, and create strategy on the fly to handle their advantages, or else I do not deserve to be the same rank as them.


And that’s mostly my view, but I recognize that this means some people will need less skill to meet a given requirement. I’ve also been looking at requirements to determine which should be a test for skill level or relative fitness, to make sure that’s what I’m really testing for.  So, for sparring, it’s a general (not relative) requirement, though I’d likely exclude extreme examples (speaking here of the sparring partners used). For techniques, I’m looking for technical skill level, so I need to use an appropriate partner for the test. And a requirement for 10 Turkish get-ups with weight should absolutely be relative to the individual.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Then she shouldn't have the same rank as you. If she's not able to output the minimum power required, why should she have that rank?
> Or, if the issue is technique, then the amount that she's able to output should be enough for you to also achieve that rank. By separating it, it's ageism, sexism, and weightism.
> 
> Edit to add something: I also would personally find it offensive. As I mentioned in my last post, I am particularly small in most ways. I also trained with an amateur sumo wrestler in an old dojo (so much bigger than me) and reached black belt before him. If someone told me that I did not have to do as much as others because of that, I would be offended by that, and put in an active effort to reach their requirements. If I knew those requirements varied, or found out afterwards, I would not accept the belt, until I reached the requirements that the largest individual had to reach. And I would be annoyed, angry, and upset at my sensei for suggesting that was not necessary. If I was given the black belt anyway, I would not be able to look at my fellow black belts in the eye, at shame that I was pretending to be one of them, or look at the colored belts, knowing that some of them could accomplish what I did, but that would not count for them as a black belt requriement.


But is it a test for power output or technical skill? Those are different aims.


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## pdg (Jul 11, 2018)

So how's this then - look at it from the larger stronger person's point of view (I'm not counting myself as one of these, at 5'11" and 150-160lbs I'm not exactly huge).

They go to test, and they only have to do what the 5ft nothing slip can do.

Have they been tested to the full extent of their capabilities?

Would they feel like the test wasn't as hard as it should be?


While you (@kempodisciple ) might say you'd feel like you haven't performed to the same level as they're expected to, why restrict them to your capabilities?

It goes both ways, there's stuff they can do that you're just not physically capable of doing, and I bet there's stuff you can do that they can only dream of.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> So how's this then - look at it from the larger stronger person's point of view (I'm not counting myself as one of these, at 5'11" and 150-160lbs I'm not exactly huge).
> 
> They go to test, and they only have to do what the 5ft nothing slip can do.
> 
> ...


I haven't thought to flip it around like that. My viewpoint is generally that the requirements should be set to what is appropriate for the (taller stronger etc.) People, and I have to work harder to reach theyre goal. In the way that when i was younger i had to work a lot harder at getting a basketball into the hoop because i was shorter. But now that you mention it, I can absolutely see schools lowering the bar to make it easier for the smaller people, which would take something away from the larger ones.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 11, 2018)

Laziness moment and a TL;DR moment, has the question what taekwondo style been asked?  (and what Hapikdo style by extension?)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 11, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I haven't thought to flip it around like that. My viewpoint is generally that the requirements should be set to what is appropriate for the (taller stronger etc.) People, and I have to work harder to reach theyre goal. In the way that when i was younger i had to work a lot harder at getting a basketball into the hoop because i was shorter. But now that you mention it, I can absolutely see schools lowering the bar to make it easier for the smaller people, which would take something away from the larger ones.


Maybe it’s my grappling background that has me seeing it differently. Doing a proper hip throw is very different if the person is much taller or much shorter than you. If I used an average person, it would be unnecessarily easy for quite short people and unnecessarily hard for quite tall people. The better generalized test is for each to use someone reasonably close to their own height. That assumes the purpose of the test is to make sure they can do a proper hip throw.


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## JR 137 (Jul 11, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Maybe it’s my grappling background that has me seeing it differently. Doing a proper hip throw is very different if the person is much taller or much shorter than you. If I used an average person, it would be unnecessarily easy for quite short people and unnecessarily hard for quite tall people. The better generalized test is for each to use someone reasonably close to their own height. That assumes the purpose of the test is to make sure they can do a proper hip throw.


How about making sure they can do a proper hip throw on a variety of people.    I’m about average height at 5’9, right?  If I’m being test on how well I know and can execute a hip throw, shouldn’t I have to show I can use it on people reasonably taller and shorter than me? I don’t mean against André the Giant and Webster, but within reason; maybe like 5’4 - 6’4?


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## Superperson (Jul 11, 2018)

Last night I found out how they determine when your ready to rank up or change belts. 
So what they do is a few mini tests on things like kicking, forms board breaks ext. If you pass the kicking test you get a strip of red tape on your belt. When you have passed all of the other tests and have the tape for each then you can do the test to see if you can rank up. 
Just wanted to pass this along as new information!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 11, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> How about making sure they can do a proper hip throw on a variety of people.    I’m about average height at 5’9, right?  If I’m being test on how well I know and can execute a hip throw, shouldn’t I have to show I can use it on people reasonably taller and shorter than me? I don’t mean against André the Giant and Webster, but within reason; maybe like 5’4 - 6’4?


That's a possibility, but it does present an issue. I don't really care if someone 6'3" can do the throw on someone 5'0" tall. I'd consider that a bad choice in most cases. And reversing the positions, the shorter person can make the throw work without being technically adept at it. So, I'd be asking the tall person to do something (in at least some of the circumstances) that is much harder and which I don't advise actually doing. It'd be a different test for the tall person and the short one, even if they throw the same people. And that's without adding the issue of trying to get to that position if the other person is significantly taller and more powerful, or how that tall and powerful person can manage the throw without any real technique (by hauling with their arms) on a tall, skinny person.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 11, 2018)

Superperson said:


> Last night I found out how they determine when your ready to rank up or change belts.
> So what they do is a few mini tests on things like kicking, forms board breaks ext. If you pass the kicking test you get a strip of red tape on your belt. When you have passed all of the other tests and have the tape for each then you can do the test to see if you can rank up.
> Just wanted to pass this along as new information!


Thanks for sharing that. I like the mini-tests, whether they are semi-formal (like you describe) or simply the instructor's evaluation during classes. It helps ensure folks are ready for the test - and that applies whether the test is mostly a verification (my approach) or designed to be a struggle to get to the next level.


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