# More Pit Bulls



## Jade Tigress (Nov 18, 2008)

We've had discussions on this breed of dog, and while they may tend to have aggressiveness in their genes, as do MANY other breeds of dog, they are not the devils people often make them out to be.

My sister had a pit bull, it was the sweetest dog ever, with everyone including her toddler daughter.

Anyway, I wanted to share the following news story. More on dog fighting. What struck me was this:



> Police confiscated three handguns and a box of steroids, amphetamines and syringes which were "used to keep the dogs aggressive and alive."



Why would a *naturally* aggressive dog, one that can be *bred for and trained to fight* need anything beyond the breeding and training to keep it aggressive? Because at heart they are loyal, family oriented dogs that have a strong desire to please. 

I feel so sorry for these poor dogs.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 18, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> Why would a *naturally* aggressive dog, one that can be *bred for and trained to fight* need anything beyond the breeding and training to keep it aggressive? Because at heart they are loyal, family oriented dogs that have a strong desire to please.


 
Nah... it's because its a BS soundbyte.  The truth is, The Steroids and Drugs are used to try and get an edge over the competition, not specifically to bring out their agression to keep them alive.  Trust me, you can make a dog like that (raised that way, not neccessarily breed) agressive as hell without the drugs.  They are just trying to make it bigger, meaner, and more capable... like a human fighter or athlete that uses Steroids.


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## MA-Caver (Nov 18, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> Nah... it's because its a BS soundbyte.  The truth is, The Steroids and Drugs are used to try and get an edge over the competition, not specifically to bring out their aggression to keep them alive.  Trust me, you can make a dog like that (raised that way, not necessarily breed) aggressive as hell without the drugs.  They are just trying to make it bigger, meaner, and more capable... like a human fighter or athlete that uses Steroids.


Not to mention it makes for a bigger, badder, stronger, meaner dog that gives a hellva good show tearing up it's competition, sometimes literally to pieces. Who wouldn't want to pay money to see THAT huh? 
Plus with the amphetamines the dog won't tire out as easily and might be capable of fighting two dogs that night.


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 18, 2008)

That makes sense. Still sad though. I know the dogs can be trained for fighting, I just find it a shame so many of what could be good dogs are ruined this way. I feel worse for the *bait* dogs, but even the so called winning dog comes out badly damaged. 

Do they give roosters steroids and amphetamines too?


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## MA-Caver (Nov 18, 2008)

I think if they get rid of or change the name from PIT Bull  to something that doesn't associate it with fighting that might help... over a couple of generations. Huskies, boxers, shepards, newfoundlands, shar-pei's, chows and other large to medium dogs were used for fighting. But when you hear/see these dogs and indentify their breed you don't usually make the connection of a fighting dog. Pits are so common for dog-fighting that they're illegal to own in Detroit.
Pits are bred for fighting, massive musculature, stout skeletal structure, powerful jaws and an aggressive tenacity that's sorely rivaled by others. These traits among others were bred into this animal. They're not being bred out. They probably won't be bred out until dog fighting is stopped. 
I've nothing against the dogs themselves except when they're trained for fighting and home defense and nothing else. 
I've known sweet luvable pits and they still give off an ura that says don't turn your back on them. I'll be hard pressed to trust one completely, then again I don't trust any dog completely... some more than others but never my complete trust.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 18, 2008)

Pits get a bad rap because some of the types of people who covet them.

Out of fear and panic, the Ontario government issued a partial ban on the animal in August 2005:



> Pit Bulls are allowed to be imported into or brought through Ontario. Severe fines are in place for bringing new Pit Bulls into Ontario. Pit Bulls owned prior to August 29, 2005 are grandfathered in. All grandfathered Pit Bulls of over 36 weeks of age are required to be sterilized immediately. Grandfathered Pit Bulls must be muzzled and leashed on a leash of less than 1.8 metres while in public. Sale of non-grandfathered Pit Bulls to residents of Ontario is illegal.



This led to pits being abandoned or dumped in death shelters. 

From what I understand they can be really great dogs, but, as with any breed, the owner has to understand what s/he is getting into and how to properly train, care for and manage the animal.

To go in another direction, certain breeds become popular, and people get them for the wrong reasons. After the live action version of _101 Dalmatians _came out, vets and SPCAs were circulating bulletins advising parents against buying these dogs as Christmas presents. Temperament and health issues are typically exacerbated by backyard breeders and puppy millers who crank these things out thoughtlessly.

Similarly, _Pugs_ (of which we own three) became the flavour of the month after _Men in Black_ premiered. Natural health problems, bulging eyes, breathing problems, etc, were made worse by money happy breeder-wannabes. 

Everyone loves doggies, but too many people choose animals as pets without (1) questioning how they were bred, and where they came from (2) understanding the unique issues and needs of a breed (3) bothering to learn how to care for and manage the animal.

There is a reason why it is called animal *adoption.*

{lecture mode on}
My little plug: If you must buy a breed, go to a reputable breeder, registered with the Kennel Club. Consider adopting from a breed-specific rescue. Your SPCA and Humane Societies have adult mixed-breed pooches who need homes. Pass by that 'doggy in the window' -- you're not saving him, you're condemning his mother to more misery in a cage. Read books. Go to obedience classes. Join a dog club. Do not get an animal, 'cuz you think it would be fun to breed it. Get it fixed. Treat an adopted animal as a member of your family.
{lecture mode off}


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## MA-Caver (Nov 18, 2008)

I'd like to add to Gordon's post that when you do buy a dog, for God's sake don't just house break it, teach it a few tricks and leave it at that. Train the dog, work with it as often as you would with your own children. Dogs WANT to learn they WANT to be trained they WANT to please their alpha leaders (you and your spouse). 
A friend of mine that worked with rehabilitating wolves told me that domestic dogs are perpetual puppies, meaning that they were immature all their lives because they don't have to WORK for their food and water and shelter. If a wild wolf doesn't contribute (work) to the pack it's run out or killed by the alpha male/female. Domestic dogs still carry the pack mentality, it's hardwired into them. 
Training your dog to do specific tasks (however menial) is good for the dog and it's self-esteem and it's good for it's pack (you and your family). I've seen far too many dogs that are just allowed to do whatever they want and don't listen to "NO!" and have to be physically restrained or kept away from the pack (left outside). Some folks think that pointing your finger at the dog and shouting "NO!" is enough, but what is the dog thinking?? "No, what??" 
I've seen dogs so well trained (not K-9) that if the master tells it to sit in one place we can leave for about a half hour and come back and the dog is STILL there, albeit laying down or resting but it hasn't moved from the spot. The dog had discipline and respect for it's master. It was well rewarded and praised for obeying of course but that's what they understand. 
15 minutes or (preferably) more a day for even the busiest of persons to work with their dog(s) helps a whole lot (takes longer) in making a dog a very welcomed and cherished personal/family pet. Giving the dog tasks to do (fetching the paper or something like that makes the dog's self worth rise because it's getting the feeling that it's contributing and in a sense working. A well trained, disciplined dog is a joy for those who have to handle them outside of the pack (groomers, vets, etc.). 
This would work with even the most aggressive natured dogs like Pits, especially when they and any other type dog are puppies. It teaches them WHO is the boss (alpha) and that "No!" means No! 
K-9 dogs love their lives because they're working and doing something important because they sense it in their handlers. That's why an officer can confidently send their dog to attack and call it off and know the dog will stop immediately because it was told to. 

So if you get a dog or already have one, work with it, train it and reward it when it does what you want/need it to do. Even a small lap dog can get it. 

*off soapbox*


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## teekin (Nov 19, 2008)

Just a note, Pitties are very loving dogs towards "their" people. They do need careful managment but are great dogs. If not for the rescues I take in and the foals I would have a pack of them. They are my favorite breed. You just can not beat them for loyalty. 
Lori


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 19, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Just a note, Pitties are very loving dogs towards "their" people. They do need careful managment but are great dogs. If not for the rescues I take in and the foals I would have a pack of them. They are my favorite breed. You just can not beat them for loyalty.
> Lori



Very good point. I would just add that much of the panic currently is over medium to large breed dogs. Recently, a very large stray, possibly a Rottie, got loose and came into our school yard, causing much panic. 

Size is not the only or best means to assess risk. The most volatile animal we have ever had is our barely ten-pound Pomeranian. When we have gatherings in our home, or small children are present, she is the one that we isolate. Because she is small and cute, however, she is an animal that people are drawn to, assuming she poses no threat.


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## elder999 (Nov 19, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Just a note, Pitties are very loving dogs towards "their" people. They do need careful managment but are great dogs. If not for the rescues I take in and the foals I would have a pack of them. They are my favorite breed. You just can not beat them for loyalty.
> Lori


 

I've got a fila brasiliero-I've owned pits. Love them, wonderful dogs, but the filas beat them for loyalty, hands down.....]

....and, of course, they're atavistically mistrustful of strangers, and big and mean as hell....not for just anyone. Glad the authorities-and the idiots-haven't figured out just what these dogs are, or we'd be up to our hips in dogs eager for human flesh, and they'd be banning them.


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## elder999 (Nov 19, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> most volatile animal we have ever had is our barely ten-pound Pomeranian. When we have gatherings in our home, or small children are present, she is the one that we isolate. Because she is small and cute, however, she is an animal that people are drawn to, assuming she poses no threat.


 

Pomeranians are _killers_



> A small Pomeranian dog killed a 6-week-old baby while the infant's caretaker briefly left the child unattended to warm a bottle of milk, authorities in Los Angeles said.
> The relative, who was caring for the infant girl, found her head buried in the dog's mouth Saturday night, sheriff's Deputy Cruz Solis said. The girl died of head trauma at an area hospital, he said.


 
Seen  here, sadly.......


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## MA-Caver (Nov 19, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Pomeranians are _killers_
> 
> 
> 
> Seen  here, sadly.......


That's when you take a little dog like that and (edit:... you *don't* want to see my original idea) euthanize it.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 19, 2008)

I don't know that Lola (the Pomeranian) is a killer.

She had a very mean streak when we got her from the SPCA. From what we understand, she was quite the pampered princess in her first home, and her owners acquiesced to any aggression. She would hiss and snap if you strayed too close to her food, her bed etc. Blanche worked with her diligently for months, getting her used to the idea of being handled, groomed, etc. 

She manages extremely well now, as we have rescue dogs coming in and out of the house. Still, we're mindful of that early aggression and will not chance someone getting hurt. 

Part of the responsibility of animal ownership is accepting (in many jurisdictions) that your animal can and will be destroyed if others are injured.


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 20, 2008)

We had a Jack Russell Terrier that was the most aggressive little thing you've ever seen. He was never like that with family, we could take his food away or take anything out of his mouth. But he would kill any other animal in the vicinity, he was the kind of dog where if he got loose and saw a pit bull, he'd attack it. He'd wind up dead if he did, but it wouldn't stop him. 

We also locked him up if my kids had friends over. On the other hand, my sister's pit was a docile sweetheart. I know pit bulls are extremely loyal and protective of their families, so maybe "Haley" was a fluke, but I never saw or heard of any issues with her. He sister had her until she died a natural death of old age.


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> I know pit bulls are extremely loyal and protective of their families, so maybe "Haley" was a fluke, but I never saw or heard of any issues with her. He sister had her until she died a natural death of old age.


 

Nah-pitbulls generally _like_ people. In fact, they like people so much that they're frequently kidnapped, 'cause they'll just get in the car with anyone......they can make pretty good watchdogs with correct training, but an untrained one is just as likely to show a burglar where the stereo is as anything else.....


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## Twin Fist (Nov 20, 2008)

agreed. SWEET pit bulls are the sweetest of dogs

however, making them MEAN is easy to do. Just like with any other dog. The problem isnt a predisposed tendency to be mean,the problem is the physical tools they have.

large POWERFULL jaws, lots and lots of power, a thick skull to ward off stunning blows. They are basically the canine version of a hyena. Very dangerous.


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> agreed. SWEET pit bulls are the sweetest of dogs
> 
> however, making them MEAN is easy to do. Just like with any other dog. The problem isnt a predisposed tendency to be mean,the problem is the physical tools they have.
> 
> large POWERFULL jaws, lots and lots of power, a thick skull to ward off stunning blows. They are basically the canine version of a hyena. Very dangerous.


 
Their primary "physical" tool is really part of their temprament-their tenacity. Their jaws are no more powerful than that of any other dog their size, nor is their skull any thicker. These are popular pitbull myths, easily disproven...they're just dogs, and like any breed of dog, they're not for just anyone. 

All dogs, under the right (or wrong) circumstances, are dangerous. Especially dogs with some size and strength, and especially if they're psychologically damaged by abuse to make them "mean." 

Most of my dogs have been what some people would call "very well trained." They won't even eat until I say the word. They'd certainly attack whomever or whatever I told them to. They guard my property zealously. They also played ball with my kids. Go for long hikes. Do really stupid dog things-hang out in the orchard waiting for that bear they chased two years ago, even in the spring.....in any case, attacking or playing ball, they mostly weren't "mean." I say "mostly," because filas are really a different kettle of fish when  it comes to this. Pitbulls, on the other hand, are sweethearts-but they can be dangerous if abused, just as dobermans, rotweillers, german shepherds and other strong dogs can be-and no more dangerous than those other dogs.....


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## Twin Fist (Nov 20, 2008)

not sure I agree dude. those things have HUGE heads, with large jaws, but if you say so. Certainly LOOKS imposing tho.

part of the problem tho, isnt the dogs fault. Given the current "status" of pitts, they seem to end up with people that try to make them mean. Some sort of status symbol.


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> not sure I agree dude. those things have HUGE heads, with large jaws, but if you say so. Certainly LOOKS imposing tho.
> 
> part of the problem tho, isnt the dogs fault. Given the current "status" of pitts, they seem to end up with people that try to make them mean. Some sort of status symbol.


 
Well, *I* don't say so. It's pretty much a fact:



> _There is no accurate way to determine the pressure of a dog's bite._ Although there have been studies to attempt to answer this question, the PSI (pounds per square inch) tends to vary greatly depending on who you talk to. In many cases the number seems to have been completely made up, or pulled from a source (i.e. newspaper) that has invented some ridiculously high number. I have heard: 1000 PSI, 1800 PSI, 2000 PSI, and "10 times the strength of Rottweiler jaws". None of this is based in reality.
> 
> In real life a dog's bite strength is determined by a wide variety of factors. While these include the dog's size and individual jaw strength, the severity of a bite is primarily determined by the dog's intent (i.e. aggression, fear, warning snap, playful nip), the victim's behavior (twisting or yanking the body part being bitten can increase the damage), the dog's training, and so on. Scientific experiments indicate that trained bite dogs (of a variety of breeds) can bite at a little over 300 PSI maximum.
> 
> Interestingly, recent attempts to measure a dog's jaw strength have indicated that pit bulls have much lower bite pressure than some other breeds, putting lie to the idea that pit bulls have more bite power than any other breed. For more details, check out http://www.understand-a-bull.com/PitbullInformation/Urbanlegends.htm


 
Seen :here

They can be pretty scary looking, though....


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 20, 2008)

elder999 said:


> Nah-pitbulls generally _like_ people. In fact, they like people so much that they're frequently kidnapped, 'cause they'll just get in the car with anyone......they can make pretty good watchdogs with correct training, but an untrained one is just as likely to show a burglar where the stereo is as anything else.....


 
I found this to be true with my sister's dog. Anyone could walk in that house.


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## MA-Caver (Nov 22, 2008)

NFL player comments about his friend's role in dog fighting scandal gets dog lovers angry... 


> *Porter on Vick: 'All it was was dogs'*
> 
> Miami Dolphins linebacker Joey Porter commented on the possible reinstatement of former Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick and, as usual, Porter shot right from the lip, according to a report on EPSN.com. Vick was convicted for his role in a dog fighting ring and is serving time in a Kansas federal prison. He's scheduled to be released next summer.
> 
> ...


If that's true... then Vick might end up having a cell mate.


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## BanannaSmoothie (Nov 22, 2008)

pit bulls are my favorite breed of dogs other than dobermans and min pins.  in some ways i like the pits better. 

they are super loyal, easy to socialize with other people and dogs, very loving, generally of good health, not as inbred as other breeds, and reasonably easy to train/housebreak.  

the guy that did most of my tattoo work had 2 pits and sold the pups.  he named his 2 snots and slobbers.  +rep to whoever knows which one is a boy dog's name


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 22, 2008)

BanannaSmoothie said:


> pit bulls are my favorite breed of dogs other than dobermans and min pins.  in some ways i like the pits better.
> 
> they are super loyal, easy to socialize with other people and dogs, very loving, generally of good health, not as inbred as other breeds, and reasonably easy to train/housebreak.
> 
> the guy that did most of my tattoo work had 2 pits and sold the pups.  he named his 2 snots and slobbers.  +rep to whoever knows which one is a boy dog's name



Ummmm....snots?


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## BanannaSmoothie (Nov 22, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> Ummmm....snots?


 
wow, first try!


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 22, 2008)

BanannaSmoothie said:


> wow, first try!



Well, if I were naming them those names, that's how I'd assign 'em.


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## MA-Caver (Nov 22, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> Well, if I were naming them those names, that's how I'd assign 'em.


Wait a MINNIT! Is that a sexist connotation?? You're implying that men are just snotty?? :miffer: *sniff* *snnorrk* we are not, are not ,are not!  


:wink2:


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 22, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Wait a MINNIT! Is that a sexist connotation?? You're implying that men are just snotty?? :miffer: *sniff* *snnorrk* we are not, are not ,are not!
> 
> 
> :wink2:



Absolutely!  But, ya'll slobber too.


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## teekin (Nov 22, 2008)

elder999 said:


> I've got a fila brasiliero-I've owned pits. Love them, wonderful dogs, but the filas beat them for loyalty, hands down.....]
> 
> *....and, of course, they're atavistically mistrustful of strangers, and big and mean as hell....not for just anyone.* Glad the authorities-and the idiots-haven't figured out just what these dogs are, or we'd be up to our hips in dogs eager for human flesh, and they'd be banning them.


 
I think I mentioned the Fila's in a few posts. I know a breeder here in Oak Bank. She has 2 bitches and a stud. She runs a huge rescue for pitties which is where I come in. I am fine with the pitties, even the scared fear biters, but will not get near the Fila's. God help us if some idiot ever decides to fight Fila's. A half starved Fila full of crank and roids. It'll kill everything in the room....and the cops who come in later. Not a Fila fan am I. Too lethal.
 One of the nasties critters I have ever met was a Russel/Pit cross I rehabed. We called him Barney, or Barnhole. Him and the Diva would have Death Match 2007 over sqeekey toys or primo couch space. Diva always won, she is faster and way more commited. He went on to become an only dog doing flyball 4x a week. Once he stopped attacking the other teams dogs he does quite well. 
Lori


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