# Biggest martial art bs stories



## KOKarate (Oct 16, 2020)

Martial art seems to attract  a lot of bs to it. I bought this up because I just saw some people genuinely convinced online that Donnie yen once beat up 8 men outside of a night club and sent them all to hospital with broken bones.

I thought it was pretty funny. Thought it’d be funny to share different stories of nonsense martial art stories you’ve heard


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## jobo (Oct 16, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Martial art seems to attract  a lot of bs to it. I bought this up because I just saw some people genuinely convinced online that Donnie yen once beat up 8 men outside of a night club and sent them all to hospital with broken bones.
> 
> I thought it was pretty funny. Thought it’d be funny to share different stories of nonsense martial art stories you’ve heard


i once beat up six blokes in a night club, they stood there whilst i head butted their mate and were still stood there when it was there turn


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## elder999 (Oct 16, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Martial art seems to attract  a lot of bs to it. I bought this up because I just saw some people genuinely convinced online that Donnie yen once beat up 8 men outside of a night club and sent them all to hospital with broken bones.
> 
> I thought it was pretty funny. Thought it’d be funny to share different stories of nonsense martial art stories you’ve heard



I don't know if it's true, but the Donnie Yen story made the Hong Kong TV news and newspapers.


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## KOKarate (Oct 16, 2020)

elder999 said:


> I don't know if it's true, but the Donnie Yen story made the Hong Kong TV news and newspapers.


Uh huh because the news and the papers are always trustworthy. Sounds like a nice bit of promotion for a Donnie yen movie


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## skribs (Oct 16, 2020)

My favorite was Joe Macci talking about the Jessie Smollet case and how it was revealed to be a hoax.  He said something along the lines of:

"I win all my fake fights.  Like the other night, a group of twelve guys were bullying me in a bar.  So I beat them all up and then had carnal relations with their girlfriends."

I paraphrased a bit, but that was the jist of it.


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## Bee Brian (Oct 16, 2020)

Mine is not really a story more than hearing the misplaced arrogance of another man. He claimed he can defeat me in a fight because he trained in Wing Chun. Now, there's legitimacy to his claim, right? He trained in a martial art and I didn't. Of course he can beat me. But here's the kicker... He was self-taught.


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## drop bear (Oct 16, 2020)

Bart Vale based his career on his shoot fighting prowess.






But didn't mention it was the Japanese equivalent of wwe.

Black Belt hall of fame.


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## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2020)

Kata is useful = Complete BS.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 17, 2020)

elder999 said:


> I don't know if it's true, but the Donnie Yen story made the Hong Kong TV news and newspapers.



It also allegedly happened over 20 years ago


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Kata is useful = Complete BS.


That comment = Complete BS.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 17, 2020)

The Undefeatable man:


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> That comment = Complete BS.



And yet we have several effective MA styles that don't use kata at all....


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## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

Learn MMA or BJJ and you can dominate every other style always.

But ignore the vids where they get their butts handed to them and sometimes get killed by untrained fighters.

Now that is some old school MA b.s.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And yet we have several effective MA styles that don't use kata at all....



Which would only be relevant if anybody claimed that kata were the only useful tool.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which would only be relevant if anybody claimed that kata were the only useful tool.



It's relevant because kata is being claimed to be a useful tool period. Again, if we have effective and successful martial arts that don't use kata (some would argue that the kata-less MAs are more effective and more successful than the MAs that do contain kata), then clearly kata is an unnecessary and antiquated training tool.


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## KOKarate (Oct 17, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which would only be relevant if anybody claimed that kata were the only useful tool.


The reason I haven’t responded to that comment is it’s obvious it’s just seeking attention. Posting that on a martial art forum is obviously done to antagonize people and start arguments


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> The reason I haven’t responded to that comment is it’s obvious it’s just seeking attention. Posting that on a martial art forum is obviously done to antagonize people and start arguments



Riiiight, because there isn't multiple levels of evidence to prove the assertion correct.


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## KOKarate (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Riiiight, because there isn't multiple levels of evidence to prove the assertion correct.


Ok


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> It's relevant because kata is being claimed to be a useful tool period. Again, if we have effective and successful martial arts that don't use kata (some would argue that the kata-less MAs are more effective and more successful than the MAs that do contain kata), then clearly kata is an unnecessary and antiquated training tool.



People recover from infections without antibiotics. So clearly antibiotics are an unnecessary and antiquated treatment tool.

You've always insisted that just because kata wasn't useful you, it can't be useful for anybody. Doesn't that attitude ever strike you as... I dunno... arrogant? Idiotic? Ridiculous?


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> People recover from infections without antibiotics. So clearly antibiotics are an unnecessary and antiquated treatment tool.



Yes, let's compare medicine and infections to training methods. Bad analogy is bad.



> You've always insisted that just because kata wasn't useful you, it can't be useful for anybody. Doesn't that attitude ever strike you as... I dunno... arrogant? Idiotic? Ridiculous?



Then please explain why someone taking Karate for example needs kata, while someone who practices Muay Thai doesn't, yet Muay Thai is never viewed as an inferior martial art.


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## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> The reason I haven’t responded to that comment is it’s obvious it’s just seeking attention. Posting that on a martial art forum is obviously done to antagonize people and start arguments


I agree, I think he really has issues with the time that was spent in a sport and competition style of Karate.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> I agree, I think he really has issues with the time that was spent in a sport and competition style of Karate.



Just FYI, my style of karate wasn't sport and competition based. You're 0-2 bud.


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## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Just FYI, my style of karate wasn't sport and competition based. You're 0-2 bud.


Ah...so when and where did you test it, if at all? Tell me did you at least test it before giving an opinion about Karate...and if you did in the streets and survived, then obviously it worked.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Ah...so when and where did you test it, if at all? Tell me did you at least test it before giving an opinion about Karate...and if you did in the streets and survived, then obviously it worked.



I sparred against a boxer with far less training and got schooled. Fortunately it wasn't a street fight, or I'd be dead.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, let's compare medicine and infections to training methods. Bad analogy is bad.


Here's a different analogy then. Some use jump rope when they train. Some don't. Just because some don't doesn't mean it's not effective.


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## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I sparred against a boxer with far less training and got schooled. Fortunately it wasn't a street fight, or I'd be dead.


Wow...one boxing match, your kicking didn't help you against the boxer?


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Here's a different analogy then. Some use jump rope when they train. Some don't. Just because some don't doesn't mean it's not effective.



That analogy only works if there are gyms and clubs that force you to do jump rope, and if you don't do jump rope you're considered terrible and aren't permitted to advance in ranking or seniority.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Wow...one boxing match, your kicking didn't help you against the boxer?



One boxing match is all I needed. Did kicking help? Kicking only helps if you can maintain distance at all times. It doesn't take much to close the distance on someone, in fact I would argue that it's extremely easy. Which is why grapplers tend to do so well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And yet we have several effective MA styles that don't use kata at all....


Nobody I know of has claimed kata is necessary (which is what your statement would rebut).


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> It's relevant because kata is being claimed to be a useful tool period. Again, if we have effective and successful martial arts that don't use kata (some would argue that the kata-less MAs are more effective and more successful than the MAs that do contain kata), then clearly kata is an unnecessary and antiquated training tool.


So, if a MA doesn't use jumping rope, but is successful, then jumping rope isn't useful?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Riiiight, because there isn't multiple levels of evidence to prove the assertion correct.


There aren't. There could be for a somewhat different statement, but not for the statement you made.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> That analogy only works if there are gyms and clubs that force you to do jump rope, and if you don't do jump rope you're considered terrible and aren't permitted to advance in ranking or seniority.


That's an issue you could argue about people forcing it onto others. Which is a different argument than your statement that kata is not useful because several effective ma don't use them. 

And FYI I have been to gyms where they state you have to start off each class with 5 minutes jump rope. Not sure if there was any punishment for not doing it.


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## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> One boxing match is all I needed. Did kicking help? Kicking only helps if you can maintain distance at all times. It doesn't take much to close the distance on someone, in fact I would argue that it's extremely easy. Which is why grapplers tend to do so well.


Hmm...in the late 80's my old school sparred with a local boxing club, first we were told by their coaches to use kicks, the boxers didn't fair well. During that time, I became friends with Joe Hipp, we trained together often at his house, and one of the things he wanted to work on, was getting around the kicking in inherent in the MA's as he seen this as a weakness in boxing.

I find this to be an odd statement, did you have any experience with combat at the time?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, let's compare medicine and infections to training methods. Bad analogy is bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Then please explain why someone taking Karate for example needs kata, while someone who practices Muay Thai doesn't, yet Muay Thai is never viewed as an inferior martial art.


There are Karate styles that don't do kata. It's not necessary - it's just part of some systems. Including some systems that aren't seen as "inferior martial arts", like Kyokushin. You've declared an absolute negative, then tried to prove it with a negative. Neither of those works.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> So, if a MA doesn't use jumping rope, but is successful, then jumping rope isn't useful?



Per this silly analogy, if the MAs that don't use jump rope are having better outcomes than the MAs that do, then yes, the jump rope practice isn't useful.


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## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There are Karate styles that don't do kata. It's not necessary - it's just part of some systems. Including some systems that aren't seen as "inferior martial arts", like Kyokushin. You've declared an absolute negative, then tried to prove it with a negative. Neither of those works.


Even though your logic trips me up sometime, I really do enjoy it, makes rethink some things.

Not really related but you are quick witted.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Per this silly analogy, if the MAs that don't use jump rope are having better outcomes than the MAs that do, then yes, the jump rope practice isn't useful.


Are you sure? That's not actually sound logic. It may be that the jump rope is moderately useful, but something else (used by the other places) is MORE useful. You've gone all binary on usefulness, and that's not how life works.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There are Karate styles that don't do kata. It's not necessary - it's just part of some systems. Including some systems that aren't seen as "inferior martial arts", like Kyokushin. You've declared an absolute negative, then tried to prove it with a negative. Neither of those works.



And Kyokushin has spent the last 30 or so years trying to rival Muay Thai, which has no kata, and has largely been unsuccessful, which has led professional Japanese fighters to choose Muay Thai over Kyokushin.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Even though your logic trips me up sometime, I really do enjoy it, makes rethink some things.
> 
> Not really related but you are quick witted.


Looking for reasons to rethink things is one of the draws of being on this forum for me. I like to hear others' views and have mine challenged with some reasonable logic behind the challenge.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Are you sure? That's not actually sound logic. It may be that the jump rope is moderately useful, but something else (used by the other places) is MORE useful. You've gone all binary on usefulness, and that's not how life works.



If all things are equal and kata offers moderate usefulness, then the arts that engage in its practice should have better outcomes. Unfortunately what we're seeing is worse outcomes by the arts that engage in this practice. So clearly something is dragging the overall training method. In my view, kata practice is part of that drag.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And Kyokushin has spent the last 30 or so years trying to rival Muay Thai, which has no kata, and has largely been unsuccessful, which has led professional Japanese fighters to choose Muay Thai over Kyokushin.


So, if it's slightly less good, then the one thing you spot as a difference must be utterly useless? That's a ridiculous position.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> So, if it's slightly less good, then the one thing you spot as a difference must be utterly useless? That's a ridiculous position.



I wouldn't even say slightly to be quite honest. There's a large enough deficit that Muay Thai is the striking art of choice in almost every case.


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## KOKarate (Oct 17, 2020)

For goodness sake. If you don’t like doing kata don’t do it. If you like it then do it. I’m assuming everyone on here is an adult? Do we really need this ego fueled pissing contest? That’s the reason I didn’t engage with that childish comment in the first place. There are things that I do not practice because I don’t enjoy them but I’m not going to go around saying this or that is useless just because I don’t like it. Everyone has the right to their own opinions but do grown martial artists really need to be doing something that I tell my teenage students not to get involved with?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If all things are equal and kata offers moderate usefulness, then the arts that engage in its practice should have better outcomes. Unfortunately what we're seeing is worse outcomes by the arts that engage in this practice. So clearly something is dragging the overall training method. In my view, kata practice is part of that drag.


In order for all else to be equal, the time spent on kata would have to be in addition to the time spent by the comparison group. So, you'd have two groups training the same basic system, but one puts in 3 more hours a week on kata. Otherwise, kata isn't an addition - it's a substitution for something else. It's that "something" else that may be what's better than kata.

But it's more problematic than that. If you're comparing two different styles, then the mechanics and strategies of the styles may be what makes the difference. And that may or may not be connected to the presence or absence of kata.

Personally, I think kata is of limited usefulness. Spending a lot of time on it, IMO, is taking too much time from something else that will have more positive impact. Even that last statement is hard to prove, though I could provide some reasonable consideration that led me to that conclusion.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> For goodness sake. If you don’t like doing kata don’t do it. If you like it then do it. I’m assuming everyone on here is an adult? Do we really need this ego fueled pissing contest? That’s the reason I didn’t engage with that childish comment in the first place. There are things that I do not practice because I don’t enjoy them but I’m not going to go around saying this or that is useless just because I don’t like it. Everyone has the right to their own opinions but do grown martial artists really need to be doing something that I tell my teenage students not to get involved with?



We're having a mature discussion. No one is personally insulting anyone or making threats. Leave your emotions at the door.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I wouldn't even say slightly to be quite honest. There's a large enough deficit that Muay Thai is the striking art of choice in almost every case.


Okay, but are you saying the only difference between those styles is kata? I'm pretty sure I can spot differences between the two groups without ever seeing someone do kata. If there are other differences, which ones matter and which ones don't? Is there one key difference, or a bunch of cumulative differences?


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## Graywalker (Oct 17, 2020)

In 1964, Mas Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate had brought over three of his fighters to the famed Lumpinee Stadium in Thailand to test themselves against three Muay Thai fighters. Two of the Karate fighters, Tadashi Nakamura and Akio Fujihira had won their bouts and both of them having come via Kos. But the third fighter, Kenji Kurosaki had unfortunately received a different outcome.

2 out of 3 ain't that bad.


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## elder999 (Oct 17, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> It also allegedly happened over 20 years ago



Don't know him,  but knew his mom back when I was at M.I.T.

I can believe it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, but are you saying the only difference between those styles is kata? I'm pretty sure I can spot differences between the two groups without ever seeing someone do kata. If there are other differences, which ones matter and which ones don't? Is there one key difference, or a bunch of cumulative differences?



Kata is one of the main differences. There are a *lot* of kata in Kyokushin. However, I will say that Kyokushin’s lack of punching to the head could be another major factor.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Kata is one of the main differences. There are a *lot* of kata in Kyokushin.


But that's not the only difference. Not even the only 'main' difference. So you need to figure out if that's the important variable, or if other confounding variables are causing the issue instead. And as you stated, there's a lot of kata in Kyokushin. So the issue might not be that kata is a bad training method, just that it's overused in kyokushin.

And if it is that, you have to determine if it's an all-or-nothing thing. So, for instance, is no kata the best option? Is only kata the best option? Is kata 1 hour per week the best, or 5 hour per week, what results in the most effective fighters?

Which obviously we're not really going to know. You'd have to do an actual study, ideally multiple different and repeated studies, to figure that out. But until then you can't actually claim what you're claiming, you can only state it as a hypothesis/what you believe is the issue. Or get frustrated enough that you can do some sort of study to back up your statements (for instance, go to (ideally multiple) muay thai gyms, convince 9 new people to join each, and in each gym have the instructors teach 3 of them the kyokushin kata, spending the same amount of time as kyokushin people, teach 3 of them the kata but not focus on it, and don't teach the last 3 kata. Then have the fighters from each gym join a round robin tournament and look at the results. Maybe multiple tournaments spaced out 6 months/a year/5 years if you want to get fancy with it).

Otherwise making a claim without having that information is spreading potential BS.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, let's compare medicine and infections to training methods. Bad analogy is bad.



Yes. You're the acknowledged expert on that subject.



> Then please explain why someone taking Karate for example needs kata, while someone who practices Muay Thai doesn't, yet Muay Thai is never viewed as an inferior martial art.



You're also quite expert at straw men. You persist in claiming people are saying things they're not.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But that's not the only difference. Not even the only 'main' difference. So you need to figure out if that's the important variable, or if other confounding variables are causing the issue instead. And as you stated, there's a lot of kata in Kyokushin. So the issue might not be that kata is a bad training method, just that it's overused in kyokushin.
> 
> And if it is that, you have to determine if it's an all-or-nothing thing. So, for instance, is no kata the best option? Is only kata the best option? Is kata 1 hour per week the best, or 5 hour per week, what results in the most effective fighters?
> 
> ...



Or we can simply look across the board and see how styles that lack kata fair against styles that do kata. If we're seeing that styles that lack kata are doing just as well (if not better) than styles that use kata, then how are those kata-based styles benefitting from kata practice?

Another example, Bjj doesn't have kata, but Judo does. Bjj works just fine against Judo, and kata practice gives Judo no distinct advantage over Bjj.


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Or we can simply look across the board and see how styles that lack kata fair against styles that do kata. If we're seeing that styles that lack kata are doing just as well (if not better) than styles that use kata, then how are those kata-based styles benefitting from kata practice?
> 
> Another example, Bjj doesn't have kata, but Judo does. Bjj works just fine against Judo, and kata practice gives Judo no distinct advantage over Bjj.


@Hanzou, has you MA experience ever included kata/poomsae to any thorough extent? I am guessing No. So you are railing on something you have zero position against. By virtue you are swatting at dead space and trying to sway people about a topic you know nothing about. 
I get it; you are a new(er) generation, fast forward person. Not a bad thing. But you cross a line when you bash people who are not of the same ilk. Bashing something because it is 'not the way I learned it' just shows your immaturity and inexperience. 
There is an old commercial where the tag line was "Try it you will like it". It very much applies to this situation. 
At this point I am not even sure what point you are trying to make.


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> @Hanzou, has you MA experience ever included kata/poomsae to any thorough extent? I am guessing No. So you are railing on something you have zero position against. By virtue you are swatting at dead space and trying to sway people about a topic you know nothing about.
> I get it; you are a new(er) generation, fast forward person. Not a bad thing. But you cross a line when you bash people who are not of the same ilk. Bashing something because it is 'not the way I learned it' just shows your immaturity and inexperience.
> There is an old commercial where the tag line was "Try it you will like it". It very much applies to this situation.
> At this point I am not even sure what point you are trying to make.



Yeah, I have a second degree BB in Shotokan. I spent my formative years in martial arts doing kata, and it did absolutely nothing for me but allow me to advance to the next belt.

In short, thanks but no thanks for the assumption.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 17, 2020)

elder999 said:


> Don't know him,  but knew his mom back when I was at M.I.T.
> 
> I can believe it.



Don't know him or his mom. But I knew about her when I was hanging around Boston. Read a couple comments made by Mike Tyson after his Ip Man movie, as well as a few comments my the Hong Kong Martial Arts crowd, and I can believe it to


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## dvcochran (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I have a second degree BB in Shotokan. I spent my formative years in martial arts doing kata, and it did absolutely nothing for me but allow me to advance to the next belt.
> 
> In short, thanks but no thanks for the assumption.


Respectfully, did you ever consider your Shotokan environment was not ideal? Possibly left a bad impression?


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## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Respectfully, did you ever consider your Shotokan environment was not ideal? Possibly left a bad impression?



Recently, my cousin wanted me to help her find a martial arts school for her kids. She didn't approve of Bjj, so I suggested TKD or a local karate dojo. We visited both classes, and execution of the techniques were simply horrid. However, it was perfect for her children so I suggested the TKD school because the kicking impressed the girls. Compared to that, the environment I learned Karate in was absolutely spectacular.

It wasn't the environment, it was the training, and it was highly traditional training that stressed kata practice and the perfection of technique alongside "semi-hard contact sparring". When I went up against the boxer, I was up against a superior athlete utilizing a superior method, backed by a superior system of training. In short, boxing is simply the superior fighting method. There's no way around that. When I studied boxing for a few months after leaving Shotokan, that reality was quite obvious. I became a better fighter in 6 months of boxing than I did with 8 years of karate.


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## mograph (Oct 17, 2020)

I knew a guy who said that his master could hide his heart beat by moving his heart elsewhere in his body.
He actually believed that story. Yow.


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## Buka (Oct 17, 2020)

To the thread, biggest B.S......

Is that Martial Artists get along with each other.


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## JP3 (Oct 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> In order for all else to be equal, the time spent on kata would have to be in addition to the time spent by the comparison group. So, you'd have two groups training the same basic system, but one puts in 3 more hours a week on kata. Otherwise, kata isn't an addition - it's a substitution for something else. It's that "something" else that may be what's better than kata.
> 
> But it's more problematic than that. If you're comparing two different styles, then the mechanics and strategies of the styles may be what makes the difference. And that may or may not be connected to the presence or absence of kata.
> 
> Personally, I think kata is of limited usefulness. Spending a lot of time on it, IMO, is taking too much time from something else that will have more positive impact. Even that last statement is hard to prove, though I could provide some reasonable consideration that led me to that conclusion.


Let me jump in with something that might help clear this up... or it might just make cloudy water even more murky. I'm not sure.

Kata is a multi-meaning word, especially in Japanese... I feel like we can agree on that.

In one use, it's a pattern of several movements, predetermined techniques and movement like we've all seen, seen and seen again, right?  WTF's Koryo, ATA's Shimjun, Basic Forms 1-3 yaddayaddayadda

In another use, it is the practice of a single technique, from start to finish, done with as much exacting perfection as the practitioner can at that time manage, whether at speed or very slowly.

And in yet another use, it is the simple stringing together of a pair, trio or short chain of techniques, even when done on the fly, practiced so as to work on the manner/method of the technique or technique flow.

So... everybody does kata, even Muay Thai. I spent 20 years doing MT and I could fall into an almost self-hypnotic state while working my heavy bag routine... just like when doing my first TKD poomse... just like working "duck under the rope" uppercut drills with a partner holding target pads.  To me... all of that is "kata."

It might not be Kata, to you, gentle reader.

All of y'all are "gentle" readers, right?


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## BrendanF (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And Kyokushin has spent the last 30 or so years trying to rival Muay Thai, which has no kata, and has largely been unsuccessful, which has led professional Japanese fighters to choose Muay Thai over Kyokushin.



Not true.  Muay Thai absolutely has kata.  Ever had someone show you how to do something? Kata.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 17, 2020)

BrendanF said:


> Not true.  Muay Thai absolutely has kata.  Ever had someone show you how to do something? Kata.



I dont think Muay Thai does.   And i think the show you how to do something, shouldnt be transfered into the meaning of kata or what is meant by it.    


I always find the "this is kata" in a non japanese speaking country a bit odd, its a japanese word and has a meaning in japanese that isnt 1:1 translatable in english.     This isnt getting into fuckery that modern karate and **** is now, with the adapted kata and kata only and kata focus competitions, which are vastly diffrent from "show you how its done".        The latter is, "copy my punch, ok you did this wrong" After explaining to you and showing you how that punch is done.    Hell you even do "show you how its done" in the places you do "kata" at.    And the punch is normally done from the base guard, or in the context it is to be used in, like if you go to boxijng, you egt taught guard, then strikes from the guard, if you do karate kata, not so much.   The guard isnt that functional, its a seperate add on later on, not at the same time of you learning the punch, or with the kata. 


Kind of ranty and rambeley, but i dont know why i just dislike the angilisation of kata, when its a japnese word with a japanese meaning which isnt 1:1 with english.  (and several diffrent ones at that, from the diffrent kata, and then there is the common meaning of kata and what you visualise when you cite it)


----------



## elder999 (Oct 17, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> Don't know him or his mom. But I knew about her when I was hanging around Boston. Read a couple comments made by Mike Tyson after his Ip Man movie, as well as a few comments my the Hong Kong Martial Arts crowd, and I can believe it to



There's a reason why Chan Poi moved out of Boston and all the way to Orlando....


----------



## BrendanF (Oct 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> Kind of ranty and rambeley, but i dont know why i just dislike the angilisation of kata, when its a japnese word with a japanese meaning which isnt 1:1 with english.  (and several diffrent ones at that, from the diffrent kata, and then there is the common meaning of kata and what you visualise when you cite it)



Yeah you've kinda made my point for me.  Traditionally Japanese kata is two person drilling; ie 'here, do it like this'.

The notion that is being perpetuated in this thread - kata = solo dance - is wrong.  So yes, Muay Thai does have kata, just not the misunderstood notion of it.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 17, 2020)

elder999 said:


> There's a reason why Chan Poi moved out of Boston and all the way to Orlando....



And his mother's martial art school is still there


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

BrendanF said:


> Yeah you've kinda made my point for me.  Traditionally Japanese kata is two person drilling; ie 'here, do it like this'.
> 
> The notion that is being perpetuated in this thread - kata = solo dance - is wrong.  So yes, Muay Thai does have kata, just not the misunderstood notion of it.



Obviously there’s a significant difference between drilling and a kata. The kata as expressed in Okinawan and Japanese Karate (and Kung Fu forms) is more along the lines of a choreographed dance routine. If I’m doing 10 snap kicks in a row from back stance, I’m not doing a kata.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Kata is one of the main differences. There are a *lot* of kata in Kyokushin. However, I will say that Kyokushin’s lack of punching to the head could be another major factor.


Could be. So, how can you reliably separate out kata as being the essential difference?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Kata is useful = Complete BS.


ha ha ha.. there you go again..


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Or we can simply look across the board and see how styles that lack kata fair against styles that do kata. If we're seeing that styles that lack kata are doing just as well (if not better) than styles that use kata, then how are those kata-based styles benefitting from kata practice?
> 
> Another example, Bjj doesn't have kata, but Judo does. Bjj works just fine against Judo, and kata practice gives Judo no distinct advantage over Bjj.


A lack of advantage doesn’t mean it is useless. It could also mean it’s as effective as whatever that time is spent on in BJJ. Or it may be better, and something else in Judo is worse. 

I think you’re confounding a single element with an overall difference in approach, in a lot of these arts.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> The Undefeatable man:


So in the spirit of "nonsense martial arts stories"   I'm going to sign up on that guy's page so I can to defeet anyone a well.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> A lack of advantage doesn’t mean it is useless. It could also mean it’s as effective as whatever that time is spent on in BJJ. Or it may be better, and something else in Judo is worse.
> 
> I think you’re confounding a single element with an overall difference in approach, in a lot of these arts.



However the other side of the coin is that martial arts without Kata work just fine. Literally nothing is lost. So the question is, in what way does kata benefit martial arts practice to the point that it is mandatory in those disciplines?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I sparred against a boxer with far less training and got schooled. Fortunately it wasn't a street fight, or I'd be dead.


That's because you suck lol


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> However the other side of the coin is that martial arts without Kata work just fine. Literally nothing is lost. So the question is, in what way does kata benefit martial arts practice to the point that it is mandatory in those disciplines?


That’s a useful question. Are you looking for an answer, or is it rhetorical?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

elder999 said:


> Don't know him,  but knew his mom back when I was at M.I.T.
> 
> I can believe it.


How does everyone know Donnie Yen's Mom?   Like literally a Jow Ga Sifu posted a picture of Some Jow Ga students and Dean chin, and when he was naming the people in the picture it was like "Donnie Yen's mother".


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Or we can simply look across the board and see how styles that lack kata fair against styles that do kata. If we're seeing that styles that lack kata are doing just as well (if not better) than styles that use kata, then how are those kata-based styles benefitting from kata practice?
> 
> Another example, Bjj doesn't have kata, but Judo does. Bjj works just fine against Judo, and kata practice gives Judo no distinct advantage over Bjj.


But now your reasoning and logic are just changing again.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

mograph said:


> I knew a guy who said that his master could hide his heart beat by moving his heart elsewhere in his body.
> He actually believed that story. Yow.


Now that's crazy... I wonder how many people would actually think someone can move a heart somewhere else in the body.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But now your reasoning and logic are just changing again.



Elaborate.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Elaborate.


I'll come back to this thread when you have stopped pushing that button.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's because you suck lol



Yes, it would have absolutely nothing to do with the structure of the typical structure of Karate versus the structure of boxing. You can see it on display in this video here;






BTW, the exact same thing occurred to Chinese Kung fu when it encountered western boxing in the early 20th century, and its happening now with MMA rolling through all the Kung Fu "masters" over there.


----------



## BrendanF (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Obviously there’s a significant difference between drilling and a kata. The kata as expressed in Okinawan and Japanese Karate (and Kung Fu forms) is more along the lines of a choreographed dance routine. If I’m doing 10 snap kicks in a row from back stance, I’m not doing a kata.



My point exactly.  No, there is no difference.  The definition of 'kata' you cite is NOT what it means.  As you noted in your own post - the notion that you (and many non Japanese speakers) have is something you have gleaned from an interest in Okinawan Karate, and does not reflect what the word meant and means in current usage.

Just because you and others who don't speak the language want to misappropriate a word does not make it so.  Kata does not equate to Karate style solo movements, anywhere outside of Karate.  And as you wold surely be aware, Karate is not the entirety of Japanese martial arts.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

BrendanF said:


> My point exactly.  No, there is no difference.  The definition of 'kata' you cite is NOT what it means.  As you noted in your own post - the notion that you (and many non Japanese speakers) have is something you have gleaned from an interest in Okinawan Karate, and does not reflect what the word meant and means in current usage.
> 
> Just because you and others who don't speak the language want to misappropriate a word does not make it so.  Kata does not equate to Karate style solo movements, anywhere outside of Karate.  And as you wold surely be aware, Karate is not the entirety of Japanese martial arts.



And yet when we say “kata” in the context of martial arts, everyone knows what we’re talking about, so this semantic exercise you’re peddling is dumb and a waste of time.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, it would have absolutely nothing to do with the structure of the typical structure of Karate versus the structure of boxing. You can see it on display in this video here;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I read is.  I'm all Hanzou out today.  






By the way in that video, it's clear someone came there with a different goal than the other.    But clearly the boxer is trying to land some heavy shots. Literally, the kicks didn't move the gloves upon impact.  Even when I light spar, make sure that my strikes made a good impact with the guard.  That's the safe thing to hit in terms of sparring so just knock it out of the way.  @0:20 he gets that super wind up hook.  

Then the guy in the Gi kicks the boxer on the waste and I don't even hear the impact of it.  WTF.  really?  How do your kicks come up short when the opponent is advancing?  Then they can't take a hit in the face?  The boxers are hitting hard, but it's not like they are going full force. And the backwards running too?  

You but with buttons


----------



## Buka (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> How does everyone know Donnie Yen's Mom?   Like literally a Jow Ga Sifu posted a picture of Some Jow Ga students and Dean chin, and when he was naming the people in the picture it was like "Donnie Yen's mother".



She’s one of the most knowledgable Martial Artists on the East coast.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Buka said:


> She’s one of the most knowledgable Martial Artists on the East coast.


Oh.. I guess I better read up on her so I'm not walking around looking stupid lol.   I never knew.  Thanks for the enlightenment.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> What I read is.  I'm all Hanzou out today.
> 
> 
> By the way in that video, it's clear someone came there with a different goal than the other.



Same goal, different video, same result.


----------



## elder999 (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> How does everyone know Donnie Yen's Mom?   Like literally a Jow Ga Sifu posted a picture of Some Jow Ga students and Dean chin, and when he was naming the people in the picture it was like "Donnie Yen's mother".




How can you not???

Bow-sim Mark - Wikipedia


----------



## elder999 (Oct 17, 2020)

Xue Sheng said:


> And his mother's martial art school is still there



Psst...Word around the campfire was that Pui Chan ran away from Bow SIm Mark
....


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2020)

BrendanF said:


> My point exactly.  No, there is no difference.  The definition of 'kata' you cite is NOT what it means.  As you noted in your own post - the notion that you (and many non Japanese speakers) have is something you have gleaned from an interest in Okinawan Karate, and does not reflect what the word meant and means in current usage.
> 
> Just because you and others who don't speak the language want to misappropriate a word does not make it so.  Kata does not equate to Karate style solo movements, anywhere outside of Karate.  And as you wold surely be aware, Karate is not the entirety of Japanese martial arts.


I don't think Hanzou is making a linguistic argument about what kata is. He's talking about the thing he (and really, a lot of us) mean when we say "kata". Is it correct for the orginal language? No. But most loan words aren't, and gain a new meaning - in this case a more limited one.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

elder999 said:


> How can you not???
> 
> Bow-sim Mark - Wikipedia


Because I'm allowed to not know everything and everyone.  I don't know what else to say.  I honesty don't know of many people outside of the martial arts or subject that I'm interested in at the moment.  I have severe tunnel vision when it comes to things like that.


----------



## BrendanF (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And yet when we say “kata” in the context of martial arts, everyone knows what we’re talking about, so this semantic exercise you’re peddling is dumb and a waste of time.



I can only say I disagree.  If your argument is that you're happy being inaccurate, that's fine.  Plenty are and it doesn't bother me at all.  But I don't see communicating effectively as dumb or a waste of time.

As gpseymour said, loan words do take on new meanings over time.  I would say that your use does not reflect the common use.  In other words, no, not everyone knows what you're talking about.  You're free to believe that though, as I'm free not to.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Same goal, different video, same result.


Why was that karate guy movement was so hyper?  It reminds me so one who follows the Martial Art rule of never getting hit.   Some people think the goal in Martial Arts to get hit, where others understand that they will get hit, and that the goal is not to be hit, but to not be hit in such a way that cause great injury.  Like the whole concept of IRON BODY training is the acceptance of the reality that you will get hit and kicked.

But when I see people trying to not get hit, they get all  hyper like that.   For me, at least, an opponent that is willing to come to me is a gift.

like this stuff.  He's hyper, and you can see he's trying not to get hit vs, blocking and setting up his opponent which is why his sweep attempts fail except for that one he got in.  But he had a high sweep failure rate. 





Hyper movement reminds me of people who do point sparring like this.  I would totally lose because I'm willing to take a hit or kick that I can deflect or get on the inside of.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Same goal, different video, same result.


Video analysis of this.

The boxer understood the weaknesses of this fighter more than the karate guy understood the weakness of the boxer.  The karate guy tried to fight the boxer  with the mindset of Style A vs Style A and  not Style A vs Style B.   If I had an upcoming match with a boxer then for the next 6 months I would be training Style A vs Style B.  Clearly that didn't happen here.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

elder999 said:


> How can you not???
> 
> Bow-sim Mark - Wikipedia


Oh.. I Forgot to say thank you for the link.  Thanks.  I appreciate it.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

BrendanF said:


> I can only say I disagree.  If your argument is that you're happy being inaccurate, that's fine.  Plenty are and it doesn't bother me at all.  But I don't see communicating effectively as dumb or a waste of time.
> 
> As gpseymour said, loan words do take on new meanings over time.  I would say that your use does not reflect the common use.  In other words, no, not everyone knows what you're talking about.  You're free to believe that though, as I'm free not to.



So when I say Kata or forms in traditional martial arts, you have no idea what I’m talking about?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why was that karate guy movement was so hyper?  It reminds me so one who follows the Martial Art rule of never getting hit.   Some people think the goal in Martial Arts to get hit, where others understand that they will get hit, and that the goal is not to be hit, but to not be hit in such a way that cause great injury.  Like the whole concept of IRON BODY training is the acceptance of the reality that you will get hit and kicked.



I find this critique of karate curious when Kung Fu exponents don’t fair much better against boxers or MMA fighters. The recent challenge matches in China being glaring examples.


----------



## elder999 (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh.. I Forgot to say thank you for the link.  Thanks.  I appreciate it.


No worries....it occurs to me that the days I'm speaking of are from when I was closer to your age.......and before you were born.
I knew a student of Dean Chin   back in NY, who passed away not too long ago, sadly-a talented photographer and writer as well.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I find this critique of karate curious when Kung Fu exponents don’t fair much better against boxers or MMA fighters. The recent challenge matches in China being glaring examples.


I would probably say the same thing.  Any video of kung fu master vs MMA fighter will probably follow along the lines of .  MMA fighter understood the kung fu master better than the Kung fu master understood the MMA fighter,  Why is the kung fu master's footwork so bad, why is he hyper, it's like he's trying not to get get.  

Stuff like that is not a critique on the system.  It's a critique on the person.  So that doesn't sound curios to me.  So whatever you decide to say about kung fu losing please refer to this video lol.  All of my future replies to


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would probably say the same thing.  Any video of kung fu master vs MMA fighter will probably follow along the lines of .  MMA fighter understood the kung fu master better than the Kung fu master understood the MMA fighter,  Why is the kung fu master's footwork so bad, why is he hyper, it's like he's trying not to get get.
> 
> Stuff like that is not a critique on the system.  It's a critique on the person.  So that doesn't sound curios to me.  So whatever you decide to say about kung fu losing please refer to this video lol.  All of my future replies to



Did you actually watch that video? Dewey says that it keeps happening because the Kung Fu fighters have absolutely no idea what they’re doing, and it essentially breaks down to a fighter versus a non-fighter. So the question becomes, why would a non-fighter believe that his martial art allows him to be able to stand up against an _actual_ fighter?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

elder999 said:


> No worries....it occurs to me that the days I'm speaking of are from when I was closer to your age.......and before you were born.
> I knew a student of Dean Chin   back in NY, who passed away not too long ago, sadly-a talented photographer and writer as well.


From what I hear, I missed out on a lot of good things in terms of Martial Arts.  Things that happened before I was born, or in a location where I didn't live.  I lived in Georgia back when I was taking karate and that was the only thing that was around.  Superfoot, Chuck norris, Bruce lee, and  Kung Fu saturdays were about all that Atlanta had back then. 

My personal thoughts is that A lot of people who were really good at martial arts and could actually use it live right around that time before I was born. Maybe 20 years earlier. up to the 70's  After that things go down in quality.  Martial arts gets commercialized and hollywood gets their hands on kung fu.  From the 70's until UFC.  Martial arts was what people saw in the Movies. 






I still remember as a kid that I tried to fight like this wit friends.





Georgia didn't have much in terms of Martial Arts, We barely had highways lol


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> So the question becomes, why would a non-fighter believe that his martial art allows him to be able to stand up against an _actual_ fighter?


  So what about this do you disagree with?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 17, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> So what about this do you disagree with?



Nada, I think Dewey is spot on. Frankly it’s all part of the TMA delusion I’ve discussed earlier. Part of that delusion is believing that your “complete” martial art gives you the tools to beat a trained fighter.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Nada, I think Dewey is spot on. Frankly it’s all part of the TMA delusion I’ve discussed earlier. Part of that delusion is believing that your “complete” martial art gives you the tools to beat a trained fighter.


Well then that makes two of us and I've said as much when seeing the "kung fu Master" vs MMA videos.  It's evident by their footwork that they have never sparred before let alone have ever been in a real fight.  

They have that frantic footwork or not enough of it.  They don't recognize opportunities that other people would have taken,  It's clear that they uncomfortable with the situation of fighting.  They always try to fight with minimum effort.  By this  I mean, they take on the mindset that they barely have to do much to win.  You can see the fear eating him alive.  There's no way a person, who is getting quality sparring in,  would respond this way.   These are reactions that beginners often have.


----------



## BrendanF (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> So when I say Kata or forms in traditional martial arts, you have no idea what I’m talking about?



Of course I do.  This is what comes to mind:






If you were to say 'Karate kata' or 'solo kata' or 'Taolu', I would have in mind what you are discussing.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 18, 2020)

BrendanF said:


> Of course I do.  This is what comes to mind:
> If you were to say 'Karate kata' or 'solo kata' or 'Taolu', I would have in mind what you are discussing.



And see, I would consider something like that a demonstration.

Anyway, I view something like that to be about as useful as kata in terms of fighting (i.e. not very useful). 

Very pretty to look at that though.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 18, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Recently, my cousin wanted me to help her find a martial arts school for her kids. She didn't approve of Bjj, so I suggested TKD or a local karate dojo. We visited both classes, and execution of the techniques were simply horrid. However, it was perfect for her children so I suggested the TKD school because the kicking impressed the girls. Compared to that, the environment I learned Karate in was absolutely spectacular.
> 
> It wasn't the environment, it was the training, and it was highly traditional training that stressed kata practice and the perfection of technique alongside "semi-hard contact sparring". When I went up against the boxer, I was up against a superior athlete utilizing a superior method, backed by a superior system of training. In short, boxing is simply the superior fighting method. There's no way around that. When I studied boxing for a few months after leaving Shotokan, that reality was quite obvious. I became a better fighter in 6 months of boxing than I did with 8 years of karate.


I can see that. Shotokan is steeped in tradition. Even more modern Shotokan that leaves out true Kata can be pretty rigid.
So, to be clear, you went from Shotokan to boxing to BJJ. Is this correct?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 18, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I can see that. Shotokan is steeped in tradition. Even more modern Shotokan that leaves out true Kata can be pretty rigid.
> So, to be clear, you went from Shotokan to boxing to BJJ. Is this correct?



I spent some time with TKD, Tang Soo Do, and Judo in between Boxing and Bjj, but for the most part yes.


----------



## BrendanF (Oct 18, 2020)

Kata in Classical Japanese Martial Arts : Koryu


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 18, 2020)

elder999 said:


> How can you not???
> 
> Bow-sim Mark - Wikipedia


I might have known that Donnie Yen was her son.  But I had forgotten.  Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 19, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And yet we have several effective MA styles that don't use kata at all....


And we have several effective MA styles that do.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 19, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> some would argue that the kata-less MAs are more effective and more successful than the MAs that do contain kata


Some would argue differently.


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 19, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> And we have several effective MA styles that do.


Yep my primary style has katas and I’ve defended myself successfully so by the logic being used here. They are effective and at worst they haven’t made me not able to defend myself. Fact is can you train nothing but katas and learn to fight? Of course not. But that’s the same with any training drill it’s not one drill it’s a whole load of things put together. I enjoy katas for what they are. I do them every morning as a but of light exercise before work where I’m still doing martial art movements. I’m punching I’m kicking and I’m blocking. It’s a much more better use of my time than sitting on my butt


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 20, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I sparred against a boxer with far less training and got schooled.


Maybe you weren't very good?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Oct 20, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I spent my formative years in martial arts doing kata, and it did absolutely nothing for me but allow me to advance to the next belt.


Then I would say you missed the point.


----------



## KOKarate (Oct 20, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> Maybe you weren't very good?


Nooooo don’t be silly it’s all the styles fault


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Yep my primary style has katas and I’ve defended myself successfully so by the logic being used here. They are effective and at worst they haven’t made me not able to defend myself. Fact is can you train nothing but katas and learn to fight? Of course not. But that’s the same with any training drill it’s not one drill it’s a whole load of things put together. I enjoy katas for what they are. I do them every morning as a but of light exercise before work where I’m still doing martial art movements. I’m punching I’m kicking and I’m blocking. It’s a much more better use of my time than sitting on my butt



Anecdotal evidence isn't the best evidence.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> Maybe you weren't very good?



Of course, because the fundamental training basis of karate is flawed and archaic. Some can overcome that, most can't.



RTKDCMB said:


> And we have several effective MA styles that do.



And they would be even more effective without them.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 22, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> because the fundamental training basis of karate is flawed and archaic.


I think you should specify "Shotokan Karate" as being flawed. Since this is where your experience for it not working, comes from.

Lumping all karate, as one, doesn't really make sense.

Besides, I believe Gichins son modifiedit specifically for competition, especially the Katas from what I understand.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 22, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> I think you should specify "Shotokan Karate" as being flawed. Since this is where your experience for it not working, comes from.
> 
> Lumping all karate, as one, doesn't really make sense.
> 
> Besides, I believe Gichins son modifiedit specifically for competition, especially the Katas from what I understand.


You see it often on this forum. Someone will bash a general system using a specific style or experience. Unfortunately it is usually hard to sway their opinion once they have 'figured it all out' for themselves. We sure can be hard headed creatures.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> I think you should specify "Shotokan Karate" as being flawed. Since this is where your experience for it not working, comes from.
> 
> Lumping all karate, as one, doesn't really make sense.
> 
> Besides, I believe Gichins son modifiedit specifically for competition, especially the Katas from what I understand.



Nope, all of karate. Take away all of the archiac stuff, and you're left with kickboxing. If you're still learning cat stances and middle blocks, you're still stuck in the archiac fluff.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 22, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Nope, all of karate. Take away all of the archiac stuff, and you're left with kickboxing. If you're still learning cat stances and middle blocks, you're still stuck in the archiac fluff.


So you are willing to say that Nothing you learned from your TMA experience translated to the stuff you do today?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> So you are willing to say that Nothing you learned from your TMA experience translated to the stuff you do today?



The kicking was solid.


----------



## Graywalker (Oct 22, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Nope, all of karate. Take away all of the archiac stuff, and you're left with kickboxing. If you're still learning cat stances and middle blocks, you're still stuck in the archiac fluff.


You are correct, but Kickboxing was born from Karate...it's still simply Karate sparing with a few of the techniques not being used for sport entertainment...it is not a process used for actual real life scenario's. And is extremely incomplete for self protection. But of course it was never meant for that.

Your knowledge of real Karate and it's various parts, is severly lacking. But, I am not surprised by this.


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## Graywalker (Oct 22, 2020)

You can always tell, when a person has focused on a sport oriented karate, even when they deny that fact.


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## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> You are correct, but Kickboxing was born from Karate...it's still simply Karate sparing with a few of the techniques not being used for sport entertainment...it is not a process used for actual real life scenario's. And is extremely incomplete for self protection. But of course it was never meant for that.
> 
> Your knowledge of real Karate and it's various parts, is severly lacking. But, I am not surprised by this.



Really? I would argue that Boxing is superior to Karate hand techniques, and pretty much all hand techniques derived from Chinese martial arts (like Karate).


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## Graywalker (Oct 22, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Really? I would argue that Boxing is superior to Karate hand techniques, and pretty much all hand techniques derived from Chinese martial arts (like Karate).


No, this is where you show your lack of real world experience...it is never the art that is successful, the art doesn't make a successful fighter, the fighter makes the art successful.

This is basic combat 101


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Nope, all of karate. Take away all of the archiac stuff, and you're left with kickboxing. If you're still learning cat stances and middle blocks, you're still stuck in the archiac fluff.



I disagree. I've trained American Karate for a long time. The "archaic stuff" as you call it, was replaced in 73. And Kickboxing, which I also did a lot of, was a sport. Kind of a fun sport, too. And sometimes they paid you.

But American Karate is still technically Karate.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 22, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Really? I would argue that Boxing is superior to Karate hand techniques, and pretty much all hand techniques derived from Chinese martial arts (like Karate).


Well I suppose I would ask you in what context you are referring to.  That is quite a broad statement that makes it seem like you feel anyone that studied boxing would have the upper hand against anyone that studied karate.    Styles don't typically win fights.  People do.


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Well I suppose I would ask you in what context you are referring to.  That is quite a broad statement that makes it seem like you feel anyone that studied boxing would have the upper hand against anyone that studied karate.    Styles don't typically win fights.  People do.



I agree. With one caveat. I believe that anyone training an art that not only allows repeated contact striking, but demands it, has an advantage over anyone who trains an art that doesn't. At least in a fight. There are, of course, other factors involved.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2020)

Buka said:


> I agree. With one caveat. I believe that anyone training an art that not only allows repeated contact striking, but demands it, has an advantage over anyone who trains an art that doesn't. At least in a fight. There are, of course, other factors involved.


But with that you have to remember there are some boxing gyms that do not allow repeated contact striking. I know of at least 2 (possibly 1, since 1's management changed after COVID shutdown) in my area.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 22, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But with that you have to remember there are some boxing gyms that do not allow repeated contact striking. I know of at least 2 (possibly 1, since 1's management changed after COVID shutdown) in my area.


No contact at all?


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But with that you have to remember there are some boxing gyms that do not allow repeated contact striking. I know of at least 2 (possibly 1, since 1's management changed after COVID shutdown) in my area.



I've never heard of that before. Huh.


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## dvcochran (Oct 22, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Nope, all of karate. Take away all of the archiac stuff, and you're left with kickboxing. If you're still learning cat stances and middle blocks, you're still stuck in the archiac fluff.


So, let me get this right; you are bashing the style that the sport you like derived from. Yet the origination of the sport you like is completely archaic? Yea, that makes a Lot of sense. Dude.


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## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> So, let me get this right; you are bashing the style that the sport you like derived from. Yet the origination of the sport you like is completely archaic? Yea, that makes a Lot of sense. Dude.



If you think all forms of kickboxing derived from karate, you would be wrong.


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## dvcochran (Oct 22, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If you think all forms of kickboxing derived from karate, you would be wrong.


No I do not but you framed it as such. Why is it such a big deal to say you found sport more interesting? It is that or your Karate training was lacking. That is Not typical.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> No contact at all?





Buka said:


> I've never heard of that before. Huh.


Yeah, no contact. And it's not a COVID thing. Neither competed at all. I found out about them from a boxer friend of mine back when I was looking for a new boxing club to join-he warned me both will give an intense workout, but no sparring occurs. 

Out of curiosity I went to both and asked-this was a couple of years ago, but from what I remember: one of the coaches seemed to be more focused on getting into shape (but made clear it was more than just 'cardio boxing'), and that padwork is all you need without having to injure each other. The other one wasn't really clear about why they didn't spar, but it wasn't the owner I spoke to so there may have been disagreements there. Neither had their students competing anywhere.

There's also one in the city that uses boxing to help with dementia patients..I'm not sure, but I'd bet they don't do sparring as well. Nor should they.


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2020)

Ah, it’s a boxercise place. Got it


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2020)

Buka said:


> Ah, it’s a boxercise place. Got it


Yup. The first one at least adamantly denied that though. And some of the people who go there think they're becoming legit fighters.

Which is kind of my point. That even boxing places can claim to be teaching you actual skills when they're not.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Nope, all of karate. Take away all of the archiac stuff, and you're left with kickboxing.


My thoughts:  This usually happens simply because people don't learn how to deploy the other techniques.  They learn kicking and punching because it's easier to do.  But the other techniques require that the practitioner really makes an effort to learn how to use them.  This is just based off my own experiences, in learning how to use many of the Jow Ga techniques.  Kicks and punches are easy to figure out, but the other techniques took a lot of trial and error before I could figure out how to actually use it.

Once I started learning how to use the "funky" techniques, I became less hesitant to learn more.  At the beginning the learning process felt awkward, but now it's normal for me.  I don't know about anyone else, but I think that we all have bad references on how Karate /Kung Fu /TMA actually works because of all of the action movies we watch.  Things get much better once you can flush that out of your system.  

The reason I think the Movies have an effect, is because many of the people who say TMA doesn't work often look for proof that's along the lines of what happens in movies.  Also many of the demos that we see often fall along the same lines of what we see in the Movies.  People who actually know how to use the techniques seem to describe it more in a practical sense, and its not as complicated.  Below is an example of what I'm talking about.:

I used to think TMA were so skilled that they could block everything.  Then my first Kung Fu teacher told me, that the reality is that fighter is setting up the opponent and limiting the opponents options of attacks so that it's easier to "know" what is coming next.  That's when "kung fu magic" died for me.  It made sense.  The reason I'm able to parry jabs and other punches is because I'm having influence on where my opponent will punch next.

If I slip a punch to the right then I know a punch will come from my left because of the position of my body in relation to my opponent.  Depending on the height of my slip, my opponent will either jab, hook, cross. punch straight, punch downward.  So there are a limited amount of what someone can actually do in terms of punches.  Especially if you only know how Jab, uppercut, and cross punch.  If Hanzou only know's or used 3 types of punches then I already know what position and what angle I need to be in, in order for those punches to work or even be thrown.  So what looks like incredible Kung Fu is just simple math and understanding the probabilities.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

1. If you slip left, you already know what the options of attack are.  You also know where you opponent may move and which punch will come next.  If you only know how to throw a hook, jab, and cross, then there are limited counters to this slip.  Throwing a hook after throwing a jab is not a high probability .  Here we are looking at a possible punch straight punch or cross because we know that the opponent is most likely to move body position or try to cover with the arm that just threw the jab.


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## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> My thoughts:  This usually happens simply because people don't learn how to deploy the other techniques.  They learn kicking and punching because it's easier to do.  But the other techniques require that the practitioner really makes an effort to learn how to use them.  This is just based off my own experiences, in learning how to use many of the Jow Ga techniques.  Kicks and punches are easy to figure out, but the other techniques took a lot of trial and error before I could figure out how to actually use it.
> 
> Once I started learning how to use the "funky" techniques, I became less hesitant to learn more.  At the beginning the learning process felt awkward, but now it's normal for me.  I don't know about anyone else, but I think that we all have bad references on how Karate /Kung Fu /TMA actually works because of all of the action movies we watch.  Things get much better once you can flush that out of your system.
> 
> ...




Too much theory. Here's what I see;

Beautiful forms:





Lousy application:


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 23, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Which is kind of my point. That even boxing places can claim to be teaching you actual skills when they're not.



I have a mixed opinion on boxercise, it could be legit boxing training, just removing the sparring aspect, so they teach you to punch properly etc.  

Or, it could be just a fitness thing or one of those crossfit type boxercise places.     I would belive qualified boxing coaches that teach both, would either let you chose or teach actual boxing S&C and drills, just removing the sparring aspect. (to reflect not actually going to compete) 

My first experience with boxing was just seeing them do circuits years ago, so you can figure how well that translated to my thought process.  (this was sub 18 at the time)   Say what you will though, double end bag and pad work does translate quite nicely to actually fighting someone, so you would still be above somone who doesnt do that aspect.    But at the same time, you need to be jabbed in the face at least once before.


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## dvcochran (Oct 23, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yeah, no contact. And it's not a COVID thing. Neither competed at all. I found out about them from a boxer friend of mine back when I was looking for a new boxing club to join-he warned me both will give an intense workout, but no sparring occurs.
> 
> Out of curiosity I went to both and asked-this was a couple of years ago, but from what I remember: one of the coaches seemed to be more focused on getting into shape (but made clear it was more than just 'cardio boxing'), and that padwork is all you need without having to injure each other. The other one wasn't really clear about why they didn't spar, but it wasn't the owner I spoke to so there may have been disagreements there. Neither had their students competing anywhere.
> 
> There's also one in the city that uses boxing to help with dementia patients..I'm not sure, but I'd bet they don't do sparring as well. Nor should they.


Was it called a Cross Fit program? We have them in our area. I can tell you they are not for people starting out at a zero fitness level but are a very good program for people who are looking to take their workout up a gear. It does have a Lot of bag work but no physical contact. I would say the current social influences will be a positive for this kind of exercise program when things fully break for the pandemic.


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## KOKarate (Oct 23, 2020)

Rat said:


> I have a mixed opinion on boxercise, it could be legit boxing training, just removing the sparring aspect, so they teach you to punch properly etc.
> 
> Or, it could be just a fitness thing or one of those crossfit type boxercise places.     I would belive qualified boxing coaches that teach both, would either let you chose or teach actual boxing S&C and drills, just removing the sparring aspect. (to reflect not actually going to compete)
> 
> My first experience with boxing was just seeing them do circuits years ago, so you can figure how well that translated to my thought process.  (this was sub 18 at the time)   Say what you will though, double end bag and pad work does translate quite nicely to actually fighting someone, so you would still be above somone who doesnt do that aspect.    But at the same time, you need to be jabbed in the face at least once before.


Boxers do circuits for strength and conditioning also pad work is completely dependent on the pad holder....most boxercise pad holders just let you smack the pads with no technique because they don’t care about that it’s just the exercise of it that matters. But obviously real boxing pad holders will be pointing out corrections and small details to help refine technique and be giving good combos not just circuit type combos


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Too much theory. Here's what I see;
> 
> Beautiful forms:
> 
> ...


Your response is an example of what I'm talking about.  I don't know how he practices his fighting.  But  I can tell you from experience, that if you practice your forms like that, then it will be useless for fighting.  If that's what YOU or a Kung Fu practitioner expects to see when fighting, then the disconnect is taking an presentation of a form that is meant to entertain and expecting to see it in a fight.   Which is not realistic.   

If all he does is practice forms for entertainment purposes then you aren't going to see it comping out in a fight.  It's just not going to work.  From experience as a kid trying to fight like I saw on Kung Fu movies.  It doesn't work.  It's 2 different things.  Anyone that knows how to actually use a TMA application will not only tell you that it's 2 different things, but they will also tell you, don't expect to see that forms video to show in any fight, because that's not how you train the form in order to actually use the technique.

This isn't a knock on you.  But I'm thinking that if you actually knew how to use TMA techniques beyond basic kicking and punching, then you would have picked up right away that there's no way you can learn how to do those techniques by training a form like that.  You wouldn't have even posted that video because it would be clear that doing forms like that is pure entertainment.

This is the disconnect that I'm talking about.  Someone who knows how to do actually TMA application in sparring and in competitive fighting would use that as an example of what they see and what they expect to see in fighting.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 23, 2020)

Programs (eg:  Boxercise) like fighting systems are only as good as the people that are teaching it.  I've been to places that are very similar to Boxercise gyms but they have put in elements from Muay Thai to give the circuits more range.   One of the stations was working with the trainer on focus pads.   Very interesting instruction I was receiving, that is all I am going to say but he should stick to what he knows which is getting the heart rate up. 

I suspect anyone taking any system that doesn't allow them to readily adapt to the situation in front on them will find themselves on the bad end of a knockout.   Anything can happen in a fight and it is best to never take your opponent lightly regardless of the amount of training you think you have.   You can always meet up with someone that has more or is willing to do something (or use something) that your training hasn't accounted for or trained enough for you to become proficient.   I am also not speaking about anything as wild as using concealed weapons.   Something as simple as a head butt is something most systems do not teach to defend against nor do most people suspect will be used against them.

It's not systems that win fights but people.    Tools are only as good as the tradespeople that use them.  Is an adjustable wrench better than offset wrench ?   Perhaps in certain situations but if you don't know how to use either, the point is moot.   A skilled tradesman can also use a bar and an elastic band to do the same job.  May not be pretty but it will get'er done.


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## Hanzou (Oct 23, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Your response is an example of what I'm talking about.  I don't know how he practices his fighting.  But  I can tell you from experience, that if you practice your forms like that, then it will be useless for fighting.  If that's what YOU or a Kung Fu practitioner expects to see when fighting, then the disconnect is taking an presentation of a form that is meant to entertain and expecting to see it in a fight.   Which is not realistic.
> 
> If all he does is practice forms for entertainment purposes then you aren't going to see it comping out in a fight.  It's just not going to work.  From experience as a kid trying to fight like I saw on Kung Fu movies.  It doesn't work.  It's 2 different things.  Anyone that knows how to actually use a TMA application will not only tell you that it's 2 different things, but they will also tell you, don't expect to see that forms video to show in any fight, because that's not how you train the form in order to actually use the technique.
> 
> ...



But the question is, why even learn those forms in the first place? What does it benefit from a fighting stand point? That sifu had been doing Hung Ga for 20 years before he got into that altercation, he was trained by a respected Chinese "master" in the art, his technique appeared perfect, and that fight was the result of all of that training. What if your goal was self defense and you had spent 20 years training like he did, and when it came time to defend yourself, you couldn't beat some punk who probably spent a few months watching fighting videos? Meanwhile, far too many folks think just doing a pre-arranged form is enough.

That's the disconnect I'm talking about.

Heck, in this Sifu's case, he actually did practice some sparring and general fight mechanics. The problem is that his fundamentals were flawed, and those fundamentals come from the archaic martial art he chose to practice. I don't expect any particular appearance of fighting, I expect someone who has trained in a martial art for 20 years to be able to fight period. He looked like an untrained fighter in that vid, and he was completely helpless against a bear hug. That's white belt level stuff.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 23, 2020)

Buka said:


> I disagree. I've trained American Karate for a long time. The "archaic stuff" as you call it, was replaced in 73. And Kickboxing, which I also did a lot of, was a sport. Kind of a fun sport, too. And sometimes they paid you.
> 
> But American Karate is still technically Karate.



Original karate employed many open hand techniques, including grabs.  Are these the "archaic" moves Hanzou was referring to?  By putting boxing gloves on while doing karate (which deleted the above moves) with boxing technique added, kickboxing resulted - An early hybrid sport that developed to give karate guys a chance to have contact (at the expense of losing open hand techniques and some kicking as well.)  And it was fun, if not a little sloppy at first, as we had to figure out how to put it all together.

So it wasn't that archaic moves were removed from karate to make it more effective, but rather the use of boxing gloves and new rules that required the removal of these techniques. A few years later, glove type changed to open the fingers, grappling again being possible (and expanded) and MMA was born.

Wondering why you listed 1973 as the time the "archaic stuff" was replaced.  Is it because of what I discussed above?  I ask because I would say 1973 is about when kickboxing was developed.

American Karate (EPKK) was definitely karate, though more refined in some ways than other TMA, especially in the retaining many of the old TMA concepts (which curiously were lost in those TMA) and in the organized presentation of those concepts using modern language.  Did 1973 have some reference to AK?  I was in Parker's system at that time (Kenpo 1.50?) and it was already a fully developed style.

Your thoughts on this, Buka?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Too much theory. Here's what I see;
> 
> Beautiful forms:
> 
> ...


Oh by the way that fight video at the end hit the Kung Fu world in the U.S. really hard.   Even in the video there are some misconceptions about what is used in fighting.  You can hear someone in the video say lower yourself to the ground or something like that.  You can see he doesn't take the fighting stance which is why he got the feedback from doing the side kick, as the kick pushed him backwards.  He tries to address grappling with striking.  I don't know how many times I've stated on MT the flaws of doing that.  If someone grabs you then address the grab.  It's that simple.  Don't try to punch your way out of grappling, if they are already holding you.  You have to break the hold first then strike.

If someone grabs me from behind like in the video, I'm not going to try to lower my stance. I'm going to try to interfere with my opponent's structure so he can't toss me, then I'm going to try to break the grip or prevent the grip from locking in really good.  

In my opinion he was short enough where he could have used his right leg to step behind his opponent's left left leg.  From there he could have grabbed his opponent's left leg which would have prevented and leverage to throw.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> But the question is, why even learn those forms in the first place?


If I was going to teach you Jow Ga.  I wouldn't teach you how to do the forms like that.  If I knew Hung Ga, I wouldn't teach you to do forms like that.  If I were to teach you Kung fu, your Forms would more like a predetermined shadow boxing pattern.  You would understand when combo strikes begin and where they end.  You would understand where Single strikes begin and where they end.   You would understand that each single strike and combo are different scenarios and not flow chart for one chart.  

For example,  in one of my forms there is a technique that is used for exactly for the situation that he was in.  When you training it.  That technique is only done with the understanding that someone is grabbing you from behind.  The time to deploy the technique is when you first realize your opponent is trying to grab you from behind.  If you miss window then you would need to do something else.  But in terms of the form. You only visual that one possibility and you train that movement.   Then if an elbow follows after that movement, then you take your mind out of the grappling scenario and think of the elbow strike as something you do in a totally different scenario not related someone grabbing you from behind.

If I were to train you.  You would know where these scenarios begin and where they end.  Instead of training it as a ongoing brawl,  You would train it as various positions that you may find yourself in a fight.

I'm not sure what the slapping that was going, Camera man sucks.   But in my book there was not need to charge in like that.  For me, the only way I would charge in like that is when I'm setting you up for something that has a high chance of pulling it off.   If you look at my sparring videos.  All of the ones that have me charging in, produces results.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 23, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh by the way that fight video at the end hit the Kung Fu world in the U.S. really hard.   Even in the video there are some misconceptions about what is used in fighting.  You can hear someone in the video say lower yourself to the ground or something like that.  You can see he doesn't take the fighting stance which is why he got the feedback from doing the side kick, as the kick pushed him backwards.  He tries to address grappling with striking.  I don't know how many times I've stated on MT the flaws of doing that.  If someone grabs you then address the grab.  It's that simple.  Don't try to punch your way out of grappling, if they are already holding you.  You have to break the hold first then strike.
> 
> If someone grabs me from behind like in the video, I'm not going to try to lower my stance. I'm going to try to interfere with my opponent's structure so he can't toss me, then I'm going to try to break the grip or prevent the grip from locking in really good.
> 
> In my opinion he was short enough where he could have used his right leg to step behind his opponent's left left leg.  From there he could have grabbed his opponent's left leg which would have prevented and leverage to throw.


After watching that video, I would be interested to know how many people have gone back to their training and 'drilled' that scenario.  Would their current systems allow for that to be drilled consistently and then pressure tested.  In my system, we do not have these types of situations occurring in the sport aspect but we do a lot of training of concepts outside of the regular curriculum.    You can only perform how you train, in my book.

By the way, there are many different escapes from the situation he found himself in.   I am not kung fu guy but if I look at it from a karate perspective, there are a number of things he could have tried but the effectiveness of any of those things would have been a function of how often he trained to be in that situation and how comfortable he felt in executing them with any efficacy.  The guy had his back and could have done a number of things at that point.  I am sure he did the best he could and the result showed that this scenario is something he hasn't had a lot of experience in.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> That sifu had been doing Hung Ga for 20 years before he got into that altercation, he was trained by a respected Chinese "master" in the art, his technique appeared perfect, and that fight was the result of all of that training.


If he trained for 20 years then it wasn't for fighting.  It was probably for performance / entertainment.  I'm just basing it on the form that you showed and comparing it to how I train my forms.  Everyone has seen me do more Jow Ga kung fun in my sparring then the amount of Hung Gar that shows up here, in that video.  This is the only thing that makes sense to me when it comes to training.   I know people who have many more years in Jow Ga but they still can't fight the way that I fight with Jow Ga.   

There's a big difference between doing a technique in the open and actually apply it.  Some of the techniques require sets ups to use, other parts only work in certain positions or stance levels.  If a person doesn't actually try to use those techniques against someone outside of their system, then they aren't going to understand these important key points. 

1. You have to get sparring in and you have to fight against someone not using the same style.  I got lucky because the other instructor was a brawler,  He rarely used Jow Ga against me, and I never encourage him to.  I knew that as long as he fought me like a brawler, that I would get good training opportunities to understand how to set up the Jow Ga techniques.  There was another instructor who was the same.  He came from a boxing background and that's what he always used against me. 

2, You always have to train the forms in the same manner that the technique is actually applied.  So if the technique requires that I cut angle then I cut the angle in the form even if that's not how it was originally taught to me.  How the technique would be actually applied is the way that it must be done in the form, if you want to get any fighting benefit out of the form.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Meanwhile, far too many folks think just doing a pre-arranged form is enough.


I agree with you on this.  None of my Jow Ga training was just using a Pre-arranged form.  My entire training theory on Kung Fu is this:  "No matter what position I'm in, I should be able to do some type of Kung Fu."  This is what my shadow boxing is based on.  I should never feel like I have to be in a certain position in order to do Kung Fu.

Left leg forward or right leg forward, I should have some kind of technique that I can easily apply.  Even if I'm on the ground,  I should be able to apply something of Kung Fu.  I shouldn't have to wait until I'm in a certain position before I'm able to do Kung Fu, which is exactly what the forms are.

So for me, I did drilling, forms, body conditioning, kung fu shadow boxing, sparring, and cardio.  All of those together helps me to be able to do kung fu.  Which is why I have so many videos of me using kung fu techniques. 



Hanzou said:


> The problem is that his fundamentals were flawed, and those fundamentals come from the archaic martial art he chose to practice. I don't expect any particular appearance of fighting, I expect someone who has trained in a martial art for 20 years to be able to fight period.


 I would only expect someone with 20 Years of kung fu experience to be able to fight, only if they were using that time to train to fight.  If they only used that time to look good doing forms, then I don't expect them to be able to fight.  It's unreasonable to think they would be able to at that point, being that none of there time was spent training to fight.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> After watching that video, I would be interested to know how many people have gone back to their training and 'drilled' that scenario.


 I hope everyone did, including Sharif Bey.  I hope the realization sunk in.  Like there's nothing wrong with a cool Kung Fu form.  Just don't think doing a form like that is "fight prep" or "fight training."  When that fight took place, everyone knew that same week of what happened to him and lots of people saw it. There was a lot of disappoint all around.  My entire perspective, is that knowing how to fight using Kung fu should be a requirement for anyone who wants to be a Kung Fu Sifu.  But that's not the case and we all know it and see it.  



Yokozuna514 said:


> Would their current systems allow for that to be drilled consistently and then pressure tested.


 This is a personal preference.  Sifu's have the authority to set up sparring sessions with other schools.  They would just need to drop their ego and go to the school and present the case in the format that they think the school vs school sparring would be good for both schools and that it's a learning experience and not a competition experience.  



Yokozuna514 said:


> In my system, we do not have these types of situations occurring in the sport aspect but we do a lot of training of concepts outside of the regular curriculum. You can only perform how you train, in my book.


My Sifu at the time would invite an MMA fighter to train with us just so we can get experience and share knowledge.   I agree with you 1000%.  "You can only perform how you train."  That's why when I see things like the Kung Fu vs MMA videos I can tell who actually trained for fighting and who trained for entertainment performance.   What comes out in a fight or sparring is an honest representation of one's training.



Yokozuna514 said:


> By the way, there are many different escapes from the situation he found himself in. I am not kung fu guy but if I look at it from a karate perspective, there are a number of things he could have tried but the effectiveness of any of those things would have been a function of how often he trained to be in that situation and how comfortable he felt in executing them with any efficacy. The guy had his back and could have done a number of things at that point. I am sure he did the best he could and the result showed that this scenario is something he hasn't had a lot of experience in.


 Correct again. The results of that sparring sessions highlights the lack of training for fighting.  The Hung Ga person is well respected even after that., but sparring never lies. It will highlight the reality of our training.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 23, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I hope everyone did, including Sharif Bey.  I hope the realization sunk in.  Like there's nothing wrong with a cool Kung Fu form.  Just don't think doing a form like that is "fight prep" or "fight training."  When that fight took place, everyone knew that same week of what happened to him and lots of people saw it. There was a lot of disappoint all around.  My entire perspective, is that knowing how to fight using Kung fu should be a requirement for anyone who wants to be a Kung Fu Sifu.  But that's not the case and we all know it and see it.
> 
> This is a personal preference.  Sifu's have the authority to set up sparring sessions with other schools.  They would just need to drop their ego and go to the school and present the case in the format that they think the school vs school sparring would be good for both schools and that it's a learning experience and not a competition experience.
> 
> ...


Osu, Jow Ga Wolf.   In this we agree 100%.   The expression we use is 'the truth will always come out on floor' and that is a broad statement that is meant to address all aspects of training.   It is or should be apparent at what you are putting your time into.   We may go to the same school, have the same instructors and learn the same style but how and what we understand or what we can perform may be very different.   Same standards but abilities may vary so it is important to train with people better than yourself if possible and to keep pushing your own envelop.  Your instructor may have an idea on how far you can go but the best times in the floor can happen when you both surprise each other on how much more there is or has been assimilated.


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## dvcochran (Oct 23, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yup. The first one at least adamantly denied that though. And some of the people who go there think they're becoming legit fighters.
> 
> Which is kind of my point. That even boxing places can claim to be teaching you actual skills when they're not.


Agree. The McDojo moniker comes to mind. In reality a 'bad' program, regardless of what it pertains to is as much about How it is presented or framed to the consumer as it is anything else. It can be a great product that is delivered in an excellent way and even have great results. But if you are using the product thinking you are learning how to lift weights only to find out you are instead learning really good cardio (just a bad example) you will benefit from it but will eventually become dissatisfied with the product. A poor description but the best I can come up with at the moment.


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## Buka (Oct 23, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Original karate employed many open hand techniques, including grabs.  Are these the "archaic" moves Hanzou was referring to?  By putting boxing gloves on while doing karate (which deleted the above moves) with boxing technique added, kickboxing resulted - An early hybrid sport that developed to give karate guys a chance to have contact (at the expense of losing open hand techniques and some kicking as well.)  And it was fun, if not a little sloppy at first, as we had to figure out how to put it all together.
> 
> So it wasn't that archaic moves were removed from karate to make it more effective, but rather the use of boxing gloves and new rules that required the removal of these techniques. A few years later, glove type changed to open the fingers, grappling again being possible (and expanded) and MMA was born.
> 
> ...



I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. I listed 73 because that's when we replaced the BS that my phony instructor was doing. By 73 he had turned over all the teaching to me, he just wanted the tuition money, which was fine with me. Some might say, 'Why didn't you just go someplace else?" There really wasn't many places around back then, and none near by. And my boxing gym was a block away. It was great.

The guy taught exercises wrong, made stuff up, if he read something in a Karate magazine he'd teach it in class the next day, not knowing what the hell he was talking about - and made up a story about how he won a tournament with it.

When I took over, the student number dramatically increased over the next six months. So he opened another school in a rich town about ten miles away. He was having a Grand Opening. He had business cards that said he was "The Director". Gave business cards to me, nice ones too, that said I was the Chief Instructor. He then had a well advertised Open House couple days before classes were to start. I actually had hope.

The Open House comes. I'm even wearing a three piece suit and a tie. One of the people that came showed me the full page ad the "director" had run. It listed American Karate all right, but in even bigger print, with Martial designs as well, it listed Shaolin Kung Fu, Chinese Kenpo and one other style, I forget which one, that was TAUGHT in our new dojo. I wasn't about to lie. When asked if I was instructing those as well, I said "No, I've never studied them. Neither has he. Ask him, I don't run ads, I teach American Karate. And I was asked a lot that day.

You might think that would be an immediate death knell for a new fancy dojo in a rich town. But he got lucky on the first day. In something that could have been a disaster.

The only times he would teach would be when there were attractive women watching a class. The first class in the school was a kids class. About ten kids. Five attractive mothers watching. I'm in the back of the class, stretching.

The first thing he teaches is to bow in. Then a ready stance, a horse stance and a fighting stance. He's showing a ready stance. About ten seconds into the kids standing in a ready stance, a kid in the front row, maybe eleven years old, passes out, falls face first, stiff like a tree, and face plants on the tile floor. Blood everywhere. He doesn't even check the kid, just sprints to his office and calls for an ambulance. Nothing wrong with that.

Within MINUTES, because all the stations are near by - four police cars, an ambulance, three firetrucks, all lights flashing and sirens blaring, screech up to the school and rush inside. I've checked the kid, spoke with him, sat him up and was attending him when they pull up.

All the emergency vehicles, especially with the lights and sirens, brought half the damn town to come rushing to the school. It was nuts. They bring the boy out on a stretcher, blood all over his gi top, some on his face, and take him away. Word spread like wildfire.

And the next day there were fifty people who signed up, no exaggeration. Go figure. 

Fortunately for me, the mothers who were there spread the word that you wanted the red belt with the beard to teach you or your kids.

Anyway, that's the guy I was dealing with. Replaced just about everything he did, had no choice really. Thankfully, it worked out well.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 23, 2020)

Buka said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. I listed 73 because that's when we replaced the BS that my phony instructor was doing. By 73 he had turned over all the teaching to me, he just wanted the tuition money, which was fine with me. Some might say, 'Why didn't you just go someplace else?" There really wasn't many places around back then, and none near by. And my boxing gym was a block away. It was great.
> 
> The guy taught exercises wrong, made stuff up, if he read something in a Karate magazine he'd teach it in class the next day, not knowing what the hell he was talking about - and made up a story about how he won a tournament with it.
> 
> ...


I want to know more about those five attractive karate moms.  It was a reality that being the (young) chief instructor had its perks - But that was SOOOO long ago.  In that time period, _Kung Fu_, was king on TV and many MA schools advertised as kung fu and it became better known than the name "karate."  Parker joked with me that many people thought karate was a type of sushi, so didn't mind the "kung fu" moniker.  Whatever brought them in.  That was the Golden Age of MA business with no lack of students.  But the BS line has to be drawn somewhere.  Happy to read you had a chance to do that in your teaching.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 24, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Boxers do circuits for strength and conditioning also pad work is completely dependent on the pad holder....most boxercise pad holders just let you smack the pads with no technique because they don’t care about that it’s just the exercise of it that matters. But obviously real boxing pad holders will be pointing out corrections and small details to help refine technique and be giving good combos not just circuit type combos



I know WHY they do them.  But if you go into a boxing class and you only see them do that and no one really explains to you if they will teach you to box and you want to box, you see the issue.   (especially if we are talking about a pre 18, or even 16 me)  Let alone if you generally think half the exercises you cant do and they will get you to do the substitutes that done work.  


But, yeah thats the diffrence between boxercise, boxercise and just somone recognising you dont want to get into boxing so wont have you spar, but will still teach you how to box.    I would presume a proper boxing coach generally doesnt have the heart to let it go to boxercise, like you find in gyms normally.  (would like to think that anyway)


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And they would be even more effective without them.


Unlikely.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Nope, all of karate. Take away all of the archiac stuff, and you're left with kickboxing. If you're still learning cat stances and middle blocks, you're still stuck in the archiac fluff.


That is only your opinion.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Here's what I see


Direct from the cherry tree.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

@Hanzou 

Ran across this.  This is the same system (Hung Ga) that you posted.






People actually sparring using Hung Ga










Then you have this.  I hear good things about Sifu Albright, but for me  I would never spar against someone like this.  I can only guess this is light sparring where one person throws a technique (not at full speed) where the Sifu is reacting to it. So this would be more like a drill I guess.  For example,  If I were to do something like this then, I would have you first start with jabs.  First a single jab and from that I would have to apply various Jow Ga techniques to your jab.  Some of your jabs will get through but that's not the point.  The point is I have to be able to do some kind of Kung Fu in response to your jab.  If a jab gets through then that means I screwed up .  Then I would move to 1-2 jab combination and I would repeat the same thing.  The goal here is to know what to do with the jab and to accept that I'm going to get hit with the jab because I'm learning.  When I think too many people see this as Kung Fu (video below).  But in reality I can't see someone getting into a real fight and doing the same thing and not think they would pay a price for it.  Keep in mind the year that the video was made in.






I found this video because I didn't want to Give the Impression that Sifu Albright didn't know what he was doing.  The clip below has him sparring in what seems to be a competition.  Notice how he spars in that vs how he spars in the video below.  Which fall in line with what I was originally thinking about his video.  But people will see the fancy kung fu video and think they will fight like that in a real fight and the truth is.  Nope.  It will be more like the one below.  Will you use kung fu techniques? yes Will it look Kung Fu fancy? Nope


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> @Hanzou
> 
> Ran across this.  This is the same system (Hung Ga) that you posted.
> 
> ...



Eh, I really don’t view much of that as viable. I’m seeing way too many openings for punches to the face, and takedown opportunities. I’d need to see those hand techniques being used against a more boxing-like style, or even in a more professional fighter based situation (which is also boxing-based), because that is the style you’re more likely to encounter in a situation.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

The first one is easy.   You cover the lead hand and follow with a back fist.  It's really simple.  Not much to it, very practical.  Screen shot of the same technique used on me.  His rear hand goes to pull down my lead guard and he feeds a back fist through just like in the first video.  It lands.





The other part where you can use that same motion to block a kick, also works, but I wouldn't recommended it.  It's better to use it against a rising knee.  I blocked a rising kick once and I thought I broke my arm.   The only way I would use it against a kick is if I could get to the knee rising part of the kick.  Below are screenshots from one of may sparring videos.

Here is me pulling the same technique off.  Rear hand pulls opponent's lead hand then feed the backhand.




Same technique done a second time.  Pull lead hand




This is the impact from the picture directly above.  The backfist lands hard enough to make his head turn.  As long as that impact is hard enough, it will break their structure to throw anything else.




Same technique done a 3rd time.  If you were to see the video, you would see that I used this technique often on him.  This time I'm using it against a punch.  You can see my right hand moving into the backfist.




This is what happens to the reverse punch after contact.  Notice how his structure changes.




Almost just like the video. Note the position of my hands.




He tried to counter with a kick.  It went right by me.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Same Hung Ga technique but this times it applies to a kick.  His downward hand addresses my kick  My guard hand is up so I can protect myself against his backfist.




So as you can see, very practical.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2020)

@JowGaWolf

These are sparring sessions. Do you have any examples of street fights or MMA competitions? I want to see these techniques being employed if someone's trying to take your head off.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> @JowGaWolf
> 
> These are sparring sessions. Do you have any examples of street fights or MMA competitions? I want to see these techniques being employed if someone's trying to take your head off.



These are sparring sessions with 2 people actively trying to hit each other. The only real difference is the intensity used.  It's like a Jab.  You can Jab light or you can Jab hard.  Either way, it works both in sparring and in competition because the concept is sound and very practical.  As for finding it used in street fights or MMA, that may be a difficult one. 

In order to find this in a street fight or mma competition, the fighter would have to know the technique.  If the fighter doesn't know of the technique then you won't see it.  You have to know it first, before you can use it.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

@Hanzou 
Yep. it's what I expected.  Gotta find someone who knows the technique then find that person actually using that technique   Really difficult, especially when searching backfist only bring us spinning back fist.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> These are sparring sessions with 2 people actively trying to hit each other. The only real difference is the intensity used.  It's like a Jab.  You can Jab light or you can Jab hard.  Either way, it works both in sparring and in competition because the concept is sound and very practical.  As for finding it used in street fights or MMA, that may be a difficult one.
> 
> In order to find this in a street fight or mma competition, the fighter would have to know the technique.  If the fighter doesn't know of the technique then you won't see it.  You have to know it first, before you can use it.



No, the difference is intent and intensity. If we're just practicing in a friendly sparring match, things are completely different than if one person is pissed off and trying to hurt or even kill you. In your posts, I see 2 Kung Fu guys engaged in friendly sparring. Nothing's really at stake there, and when nothing's at stake, you tend to do all sorts of wacky stuff in an attempt to experiment.  When someone wants to seriously hurt you, you don't do wacky stuff, you get serious and do whatever you can to survive. I want to see those flowing hand movements when their well being is on the line. If I can't get that, I would at least like to see it when they're really fighting someone in a cage or a ring.

I'm also not looking for a specific technique. I just want to see Kung Fu in the ring or a street fight. Not Kung Fu that looks like kickboxing, Kung Fu with the weird hand techniques, overextended/exaggerated arm movements, and open-handed strikes like you showed in those sparring vids.


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## punisher73 (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, let's compare medicine and infections to training methods. Bad analogy is bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Then please explain why someone taking Karate for example needs kata, while someone who practices Muay Thai doesn't, yet Muay Thai is never viewed as an inferior martial art.



Good point, except that traditional Muay Thai, called Muay Boran, utilizes forms.  

The reason?  Kata is usually dealing with self-defense scenarios beyond just punching and kicking.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Good point, except that traditional Muay Thai, called Muay Boran, utilizes forms.
> 
> The reason?  Kata is usually dealing with self-defense scenarios beyond just punching and kicking.



I would argue that the vast majority of people are practicing Muay Thai, not Muay Boran, and are perfectly capable of defending themselves without the traditional fluff.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> In your posts, I see 2 Kung Fu guys engaged in friendly sparring. Nothing's really at stake there, and when nothing's at stake, you tend to do all sorts of wacky stuff in an attempt to experiment.


We weren't experimenting with the technique.  We know it works.  Sort of like a Jab. When you know it works then you have a lot of example of it working.



Hanzou said:


> Nothing's really at stake there, and when nothing's at stake, you tend to do all sorts of wacky stuff in an attempt to experiment.


There is always something at stake, you can still get hit, you can still get hurt, and you can still fail at doing the technique.  If you are sparring to learn, then you are trying to learn how to do things the right way and not the wacky way.  That's why you see Jabs and hooks still used in light sparring.  It's the same reason why you see this technique used more than once.



Hanzou said:


> When someone wants to seriously hurt you, you don't do wacky stuff, you get serious and do whatever you can to survive.


 Here's another example





And another.




I can show the same consistency with jabs.



Hanzou said:


> If I can't get that, I would at least like to see it when they're really fighting someone in a cage or a ring.


like I said. This requires that the person in the ring knows the technique and knows how to use it.



Hanzou said:


> I just want to see Kung Fu in the ring or a street fight. Not Kung Fu that looks like kickboxing, Kung Fu with the weird hand techniques, overextended/exaggerated arm movements, and open-handed strikes like you showed in those sparring vids.


 The only one that I've seen so far is the long circular punches like you see me use.  MMA fighters like that one.  You may see others pop up in the future as MMA fighters look for new and unfamiliar ways to strike.

But I'm like you as well.  Too often I see Kung Fu practitioners abandon their techniques and I wish they wouldn't.  I'm not bragging about myself, or feeding my EGO.  There are very few Kung Fu people who can show screenshots and clips of them actually doing Kung as you have described. Like how many people other than me.  I personally only know of one other.
This is the other guy.  Other him and me, I don't know of any other from Jow Ga.  He has a family full of fighters.  He trains his kids to fight and he's a Jow Ga Practitioner.  He has a couple of videos that show Jow Ga techniques and him actually using it in sparring.  He spars with more intensity then I do.  He also gets injured more as a result. The last time I sparred as hard as him was when I was training for competition.  Other than me and this guy.  I don't know anyone that I could show actually doing kung fu techniques as you want to see them.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I would argue that the vast majority of people are practicing Muay Thai, not Muay Boran, and are perfectly capable of defending themselves without the traditional fluff.


Traditonal Muay Boran





There are some martial arts that have fluff.  But not all of them.  Some of the martial arts stuff that's out there are has quite a bit of practical techniques.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Traditonal Muay Boran
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Meh. I've seen fighters with zero Muay Boran training do those exact same techniques. Beautiful stuff though. I'm a huge fan/advocate of Muay Thai, so that vid gets a thumbs up from me regardless.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

I think the reason there aren't more kung fu fighters is because there are too many that are interested in Silk Kung Fu wear.  I don't think there are many that have the interest in fighting.  Then you have people like Bruce lee talking about the best way to win a fight is not to fight.  Or however that saying goes.   Then you have those who say kung fu is only for health, like what China did.  So now you have a bunch of Kung Fu practitioners like this.





And not enough like this.  It's hard to understand him, but he talks about the focus that people have and how they focus on making their forms look nice.  He brings ups some of the same things that I've said and others have said here.





So when people do forms like this, what is their focus.  95% of them are probably focused on a form looking nice.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> But I'm like you as well.  Too often I see Kung Fu practitioners abandon their techniques and I wish they wouldn't.  I'm not bragging about myself, or feeding my EGO.  There are very few Kung Fu people who can show screenshots and clips of them actually doing Kung as you have described. Like how many people other than me.  I personally only know of one other.
> This is the other guy.  Other him and me, I don't know of any other from Jow Ga.  He has a family full of fighters.  He trains his kids to fight and he's a Jow Ga Practitioner.  He has a couple of videos that show Jow Ga techniques and him actually using it in sparring.  He spars with more intensity then I do.  He also gets injured more as a result. The last time I sparred as hard as him was when I was training for competition.  Other than me and this guy.  I don't know anyone that I could show actually doing kung fu techniques as you want to see them.



Okay, what about CMAs other than Jow Ga?

Here's the problem; in the modern era, if the only public view I see is people from your MA getting KO'd by mediocre to bad MMA guys, why would I join your school over the MMA gym? If I'm seeing Kung Fu guys getting KO'd by street fighters with zero training after the former has spent 20 years doing whatever the hell he was doing in his Kwoon, why would I study CMA to defend myself?

Based on the amount of work you do to try to make Jow Ga a viable fighting art, I really think you and your friend need to do some local MMA fights and film them. I think it would go a long way for the development of your MA. I think that's your goal, and if it is, you're just spinning your tires doing all this in-house sparring.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Meh. I've seen fighters with zero Muay Boran training do those exact same techniques.


That's because some of the techniques aren't specific to Muay Boran.  I know that the leaping knee is found in multiple martial arts system.  So not learning it from one system doesn't mean you can't learn it from another one.  Kung Fu Long fist is a perfect example.  How many people in MMA who actually use that technique had to take kung fu in order to learn it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's because some of the techniques aren't specific to Muay Boran.  I know that the leaping knee is found in multiple martial arts system.  So not learning it from one system doesn't mean you can't learn it from another one.  Kung Fu Long fist is a perfect example.  How many people in MMA who actually use that technique had to take kung fu in order to learn it.



No, I mean some of those applications from the form are already within Muay Thai technique lists. In other words, you don't ever need to learn the form to learn those techniques when you study Muay Thai. Good luck even finding a Muay Boran school outside of Thailand.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, what about CMAs other than Jow Ga?


I've seen some guys out of the Choy li fut and Hop Ga camps that were nice fighters.  They actually try to use the techniques and can pull off certain ones fairly consistently. 



Hanzou said:


> Here's the problem; in the modern era, if the only public view I see is people from your MA getting KO'd by mediocre to bad MMA guys, why would I join your school over the MMA gym?


 Easy.  Because it wasn't me getting KO's by the bad or mediocre MMA guy lol  I would just tell you not to go to that guy's school lol.  Then if you wanted to spar in order to test me out then I would be open to that.

You would sign a waiver and then the rules would be.  You get what you give.  If you want to spar hard then I will spar hard and we will both suffer from injuries.  I would also let you know that the harder we spar the less willing I'll be to pull punches.  From there it will be up to you to set the pace.



Hanzou said:


> Based on the amount of work you do to try to make Jow Ga a viable fighting art


I haven't made Jow Ga viable.  It was viable already.  It only took me to understand  what you see on the videos.  Once I understood it, things became easier. 



Hanzou said:


> I really think you and your friend need to do some local MMA fights and film them. I think it would go a long way for the development of your MA. I think that's your goal, and if it is, you're just spinning your tires doing all this in-house sparring.


The in house sparring wasn't bad.  It gave me what I needed.  In addition we had people from other systems in our school so they would often revert back to that system.   I wouldn't be able to pass the physical for MMA now.  Too old and high blood pressure.  The most I would be able to get away these days is just that friendly sparring that you hate lol.

I was planning to do competition a few years back but my wife was diagnosed with cancer, so I had to give up that idea so I could focus on her.  Not a big loss all things considered.  I would still go a few rounds with MMA guys maybe next year as I'm getting my blood pressure under control.  It wouldn't be the first time that I've sparred against an MMA fighter.


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## Hanzou (Oct 25, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've seen some guys out of the Choy li fut and Hop Ga camps that were nice fighters.  They actually try to use the techniques and can pull off certain ones fairly consistently.



Any videos of these fighters? I'd like to see them.



> Easy.  Because it wasn't me getting KO's by the bad or mediocre MMA guy lol  I would just tell you not to go to that guy's school lol.  Then if you wanted to spar in order to test me out then I would be open to that.
> 
> I haven't made Jow Ga viable.  It was viable already.  It only took me to understand  what you see on the videos.  Once I understood it, things became easier.



But the Jow Ga school you attended didn't offer sparring, and if I'm not mistaken you don't run a school. How can you say Jow Ga is viable if the schools don't even allow you to spar?



> I was planning to do competition a few years back but my wife was diagnosed with cancer, so I had to give up that idea so I could focus on her.  Not a big loss all things considered.  I would still go a few rounds with MMA guys maybe next year as I'm getting my blood pressure under control.  It wouldn't be the first time that I've sparred against an MMA fighter.



Sorry to hear about your wife. Family comes first always IMO. Take care of her and make sure she beats cancer.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Good luck even finding a Muay Boran school outside of Thailand.


I'm sure they are really difficult to find especially in the U.S..



Hanzou said:


> In other words, you don't ever need to learn the form to learn those techniques when you study Muay Thai.


This is probably true for any fighting systems.  Forms are important but a person can probably learn without the forms.   I wouldn't teach anyone without teaching them forms,  simply because I think it's a good training tool., especially when you have no one else to train with, which is how it is for me most of the time.

Much of the Jow Ga that you have seen me do outside were drills and not forms. I still do forms, but how many videos have you seen me do of a complete form?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Any videos of these fighters? I'd like to see them.


I'll have to see if I can find them again.  Hopefully they are still around on Youtube.



Hanzou said:


> But the Jow Ga school you attended didn't offer sparring, and if I'm not mistaken you don't run a school.


The Jow Ga school that attended had sparring.  We had sparring when the Sifu was there.  I have old video of that.  Then the Sifu Went out of town which left Me and 2 Instructors.  At that time I wasn't an instructor.  We (2 instructors and I)  went to the Sanda school to spar against them. The Sanda school out performed the 2 instructors and I kept gassing out. Totally spent.  Our Sifut at that time was disappointed.  He told me that he expected to see more Jow Ga out of the Instructors.

The instructor from a boxing background made a decision to spar at least once a week on Thursday.  Because he got his but handed to him, he also wanted to take some Sanda Classes. Sifu wasn't happy to hear that, some stuff went down, and that guy left the school or was kicked out, or maybe he got stabbed in the back like I did.  Before he left, I was kept asking him about the class and he said he didn't have time, and I offered to the sparring class for him until he had more time.   He never came back,  I was left with the class and felt that I should see it through.  Now we are down 1 instructor.  When that instructor couldn't make class I would take over.  So now I'm filing in for the instructor who is left and taking over the sparring class that the other Instructor wanted to do.  

For almost a year no one came to that class.  It was just me by myself.  I worked on cardio and kung fu shadow boxing.  Drilled the crap out of some big wheel punches, studies some video and when I had a chance to spar with others, I ate some punches. Eventually I got better and the Sifu even said as much. The Sifu made the comment to me "You know more kung fu  than some others who have been training for  years." and he wanted to see me have more drive to become Sifu.  Out of respect I won't say who he thought I was better than.   To me the only thing I cared about was doing Kung Fu. so from that point, I became an instructor. It was kind of weird because I jumped rank.

My sifu back thin was ok because he could see in my sparring that I understood more and that I actually tried to use the kung fu.  It wasn't until the second visit to the Sanda school that the other Jow Ga students wanted to learn from me.   Including the instructor who had seniority over me.  They wanted to know how did I learn it because I took the same classes that they took, with the exception of what I did during the sparring classes.  So they joined me, and we worked hard.  Then eventually the other instructor joined and I started to teach him how to apply it.

The other instructor didn't learn much because he kep going back to old ways, he didn't want to spar to learn.  So thanks to the videos, every Thrusday I would teach Jow Ga sparring and I would help teach  students during the normal  classes.   So that's how I became the Instructor.  

I don't run a school now, because I got kicked out "Said reason was that I focused on fighting too much."  But I used to run the school along with the other instructor.  My responsibilities were, 

Website design
Marketing
Paying rent
Managing dues and buying equipment as needed.
Reaching out to students who were interested
Run Saturday's sparring session
Provide assistance to students who wanted to train on Sundays.
Soooo. yeah pretty much ran the school.  Who found the school building location to train in.  That was me.  I was able to do what the other 2 instructors didn't think was possible.  So that it in a nutshell so to speak


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> How can you say Jow Ga is viable if the schools don't even allow you to spar?


We allowed sparring. Every Jow ga school I've been in has allowed sparring.  But none of them had a dedicated sparring day.  I used to market videos and images of us sparring in the school.  That's why I have so much video of it.



Hanzou said:


> Sorry to hear about your wife. Family comes first always IMO. Take care of her and make sure she beats cancer.


Always.. She made it through the cancer.  That was a few years ago now.  I did the right thing. Put family first.  It meant that I had to stop training for competition back then, but it was worth it.  I can always do kung fu and spar.  The only reason I wanted to do competition was so I could finally do Jow Ga without holding back.

I always held back for the safety of students and the instructor.  Need to go full force when we are learning.  But in competition I would be able to relax and just enjoy Jow Ga without concern.  I may get the opportunity again one day.

I went a year MIA from the kung fu school to focus on my wife.  When I got back, the instructor had been lying to the Sifu  and said that I didn't contribute to the school and he did that knowing that my wife had cancer.  Grade A Jerk.


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## Buka (Oct 26, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I want to know more about those five attractive karate moms.  It was a reality that being the (young) chief instructor had its perks - But that was SOOOO long ago.  In that time period, _Kung Fu_, was king on TV and many MA schools advertised as kung fu and it became better known than the name "karate."  Parker joked with me that many people thought karate was a type of sushi, so didn't mind the "kung fu" moniker.  Whatever brought them in.  That was the Golden Age of MA business with no lack of students.  But the BS line has to be drawn somewhere.  Happy to read you had a chance to do that in your teaching.



The most fun I remember from that time, was leaving class, rushing to one of the guy's apartments, sitting on the floor stretching and watching Kung Fu on TV every week. We didn't much care about the fight scenes, but we loved the flashbacks when he was training in the Temple and his teachers would quote him wisdom.


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## WaterGal (Nov 3, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> Martial art seems to attract  a lot of bs to it. I bought this up because I just saw some people genuinely convinced online that Donnie yen once beat up 8 men outside of a night club and sent them all to hospital with broken bones.
> 
> I thought it was pretty funny. Thought it’d be funny to share different stories of nonsense martial art stories you’ve heard



One time I was looking at some websites for schools in the next state.... I think I was helping somebody pick a local school for their kid, I forget?

Anyway, this instructor had this absolutely ridiculous bio on his school website. It was like... Master [Some Korean Guy] learned Taekwondo from monks in a remote monastery in rural Korea. He went there after his parents were murdered by gangsters, and the monks taught him Taekwondo so he could avenge his parents death. While he was there, he learned supernatural abilities such as levitation. I was like... um, I think that's Batman, dude.


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## Rusty B (Nov 6, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> One time I was looking at some websites for schools in the next state.... I think I was helping somebody pick a local school for their kid, I forget?
> 
> Anyway, this instructor had this absolutely ridiculous bio on his school website. It was like... Master [Some Korean Guy] learned Taekwondo from monks in a remote monastery in rural Korea. He went there after his parents were murdered by gangsters, and the monks taught him Taekwondo so he could avenge his parents death. While he was there, he learned supernatural abilities such as levitation. I was like... um, I think that's Batman, dude.



I remember reading a dojo website a couple of months ago, where the owner was discussing the history of his particular style of karate... and he mentioned something about "Okinawan samurais" - I can't remember if he was saying it was used to fight "Okinawan samurai" or if these "Okinawan samurai" used it themselves.

But... "Okinawan samurai?"  Surely, I thought, there was never a such thing.  I thought maybe I was wrong, so I spent some time Googling it and... nope, no such thing.


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## punisher73 (Nov 6, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> I remember reading a dojo website a couple of months ago, where the owner was discussing the history of his particular style of karate... and he mentioned something about "Okinawan samurais" - I can't remember if he was saying it was used to fight "Okinawan samurai" or if these "Okinawan samurai" used it themselves.
> 
> But... "Okinawan samurai?"  Surely, I thought, there was never a such thing.  I thought maybe I was wrong, so I spent some time Googling it and... nope, no such thing.



Hmmm, I had always heard the term as well and immediately came up with several references. 
"The Pechin (is the Okinawan/Ryukyuan equivalent of the Japanese Samurai. In the Ryūkyū Kingdom (Okinawa), feudal warriors of the Pechin class would refer to themselves samurai"

Also, further on the "caste system" of Okinawa Yukatchu - Wikipedia  (which referred to certain members of the Pechin class as "samuree"

BUT, I also hear what you are saying and the image conjured up is that Okinawans were trained as Japanese Samurai and had the same weapons/training/martial arts etc. I don't believe that occurred.  It was a title used to denote those of the warrior class in Okinawa.

Also, I do agree that attributing certain techniques to the "farmers versus the Samurai" stories have been shown to be BS.  For example, the horizontal thrust punch was designed to punch through samurai armor or that the jumping kicks were designed to knock a Samurai off of his horse.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Nov 8, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And yet we have several effective MA styles that don't use kata at all....


true...sort of - they do use patterns and drill sets 
and practical applications of kata have been seen in MMA


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 9, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> But... "Okinawan samurai?" Surely, I thought, there was never a such thing. I thought maybe I was wrong, so I spent some time Googling it and... nope, no such thing.



There was indeed a thing of Okinawan "Samurai."  They were called _Pechin  _and had low, mid and high ranks, and like in Japan, were considered to be of the upper middle to upper class, often part of the nobility or closely associated with them.  Not sure if the two were _exactly_ the same in the cultural/Buddhist sense, but close enough.  Dress and weaponry were similar to the Japanese warrior class.

A number of the older karate (_toude_) practitioners in the late 1700's/early 1800's were members of this class, as instruction at that time was closely restricted to chosen individuals.  The commoners were not included.  A number of current and recent Okinawan masters can trace their ancestral lineage back to this noble class.

The "Godfather" of Okinawan karate, "Bushi" Matsumura was a lower level _Pechin _and was schooled in the Jigen Ryu style of Japanese swordmanship of the Satsuma clan, as well as being expert in Goi Ryu, the skill of weapons use while mounted on horseback.  He, like other martial artists of the time, were often employed as security agents and body guards to the Royal House.

edit note - just saw Punisher's post in which he covered some of this.  hope mine provides other useful info on the subject.


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## WaterGal (Nov 9, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> For example, the horizontal thrust punch was designed to punch through samurai armor or that the jumping kicks were designed to knock a Samurai off of his horse.



Oh I have an even worse one! I've heard someone claim that jumping kicks in TKD were invented during the Korean War so they could kick enemy soldiers off their motorcycles.


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## dvcochran (Nov 9, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Oh I have an even worse one! I've heard someone claim that jumping kicks in TKD were invented during the Korean War so they could kick enemy soldiers off their motorcycles.



Haha! I heard the same thing only much farther back in time, to the dynasty wars. They were kicking soldiers off their horses. There is some evidence to support this but it is very substantial. 
True story; My GM came to the states in 1974. In 1976 he was at a city fair in Nashville and used a Pinto (a short horse) to demonstrate this technique. He did knock the horse down, knocking the man on the horse off, but also got in a butt ton of trouble with city officials. Turned out to be great advertising for the Dojang.


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## Hanzou (Nov 9, 2020)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> true...sort of - they do use patterns and drill sets
> and practical applications of kata have been seen in MMA



Patterns and drill sets are not pre-arranged kata full of obsolete techniques with fuzzy applications.

As for practical applications of kata in MMA settings; People tend to take rather liberal interpretations of a movement or sequence in a kata and apply it to MMA. It's no different than the folks who think that Vitor Belfort or Chuck Liddell were using Wing Chun when they were charging people with a flurry of punches.


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## punisher73 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Patterns and drill sets are not pre-arranged kata full of obsolete techniques with fuzzy applications.
> 
> As for practical applications of kata in MMA settings; People tend to take rather liberal interpretations of a movement or sequence in a kata and apply it to MMA. It's no different than the folks who think that Vitor Belfort or Chuck Liddell were using Wing Chun when they were charging people with a flurry of punches.



Once again, you have a preconceived idea as to what "kata" is.  A kata is EXACTLY patterns and drill sets that are put together.  

For example, Kendo "kata"





For example, Judo "kata"





For example, Iaido "kata"





Notice that the first two all require a partner and are no different than "drilling" done for beginners in more "alive" gyms, Iaido the moves are very obvious as to what their application is and are meant to be done pre-emptive before the other person can react.  These kata were to ingrain the basics before moving to kumite (sparring) and to train techniques that were too dangerous to practice all out.  

Now lets move on to BJJ.  Here are 5 solo grappling drills from Stephen Kesting (he shows the application w/ a partner).  





These are 5 skills that are vital and beneficial to a grappler.  If you put the 5 drills together into a flow pattern so that you can go from one drill to another for your home practice.  You have now just created a "kata".  Nothing more mystical about "kata" than that.  Let's say you become a really good grappler and start teaching others, you now teach them your "flow drill" so they can ingrain the skills faster when they are training alone.  Voila!  The transmission of kata.


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Once again, you have a preconceived idea as to what "kata" is.  A kata is EXACTLY patterns and drill sets that are put together.



:sigh: Why do have to keep playing these dumb semantic games? When I say kata you know exactly what I mean, and yet we still play silly word games pretending that a football player doing Fast Feet is the same as a Karateka doing Basai Dai. 

Please show me a single example of a Karateka fighting like this either in sparring, competition, or self defense;







You know the difference between that Bjj vid and that kata gif? Bjj practitioners will actually use those techniques.


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## punisher73 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> :sigh: Why do have to keep playing these dumb semantic games? When I say kata you know exactly what I mean, and yet we still play silly word games pretending that a football player doing Fast Feet is the same as a Karateka doing Basai Dai.
> 
> Please show me a single example of a Karateka fighting like this either in sparring, competition, or self defense;
> 
> ...



Its not semantics.  You posted a performance video of a kata.  Does performance execution of kata have anything to do with fighting?  No.  You can't tell the difference between the two which is the issue.  You can't understand what kata is supposed to be used for or why, which is the problem.

Without knowing what kata that is, I can't do a better job of isolating what the techinques show, but off the top.

First part of the kata can be used to strip a grip and then entering for a throw









Here's the issue I will agree with you on.  Unless you isolate those moves and practice them on a live opponent, then kata alone won't make you into a fighter.  Kata is just a tool to train and have a system in your memory.


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Its not semantics.  You posted a performance video of a kata.  Does performance execution of kata have anything to do with fighting?  No.  You can't tell the difference between the two which is the issue.  You can't understand what kata is supposed to be used for or why, which is the problem.
> 
> Without knowing what kata that is, I can't do a better job of isolating what the techinques show, but off the top.



Why do you need to know what the kata is? Simply isolate the techniques shown and explain what their purpose is and show someone using it in a fighting context. I can do that for the Bjj video you posted quite easily.



> First part of the kata can be used to strip a grip and then entering for a throw



Really? What throw in particular? I would love to know what throw utilizes that movement right after the first part of the kata.



> Here's the issue I will agree with you on.  Unless you isolate those moves and practice them on a live opponent, then kata alone won't make you into a fighter.  Kata is just a tool to train and have a system in your memory.



If you need to break apart the kata to get the valuable movements, why are you doing the kata in the first place (Especially given that many karate schools are sticklers on doing the kata EXACTLY right)? Why aren't you simply discarding the kata and pulling out the valuable techniques?

Again, I don't need to break apart that flograppling drill to get the useful bits, the ENTIRE thing is useful for actually grappling.


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## Rusty B (Nov 10, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> There was indeed a thing of Okinawan "Samurai."  They were called _Pechin  _and had low, mid and high ranks, and like in Japan, were considered to be of the upper middle to upper class, often part of the nobility or closely associated with them.  Not sure if the two were _exactly_ the same in the cultural/Buddhist sense, but close enough.  *Dress and weaponry were similar to the Japanese warrior class.*



I just did some digging around, and this doesn't appear to the case.

The pechin/yukatchu didn't wear the wear the armor that samurais a famous for.

In any case, if the pechin/yukatchu was what the website was referring to; they should have said that instead of "Okinawan samurai."


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## Rusty B (Nov 10, 2020)

WaterGal said:


> Oh I have an even worse one! I've heard someone claim that jumping kicks in TKD were invented during the Korean War so they could kick enemy soldiers off their motorcycles.



I heard something similar.  The version I heard was that the South Korean Army saw a need for a martial art with minimal use of the hands, so that soldiers could engage in close quarters combat without having to drop their rifles and/or other essential tools and gear.  The result was TKD.


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## Rusty B (Nov 10, 2020)

Okay, here's one... it may be true, it may not be... it's somewhat of an urban legend, I suppose.

I've read that Abraham Lincoln was a professional wrestler, and the first to ever win what would later become the NWA World Championship after unifying several titles to become undisputed.

Before anyone responds "professional wrestling is fake" - that has only been true since after World War I.  During the Great Depression, the wrestling industry was on the verge of dying out.  When it was real, the majority of the match would be on the canvas with wrestlers having each other in various holds - without much movement or action; and wrestling wasn't able to compete with boxing.  The solution to this was making it fake, in order to add action and excitement to it.

So if Abraham Lincoln was indeed the first to hold this title... he would have engaged in a real combat sport in order to win it.


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## punisher73 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Why do you need to know what the kata is? Simply isolate the techniques shown and explain what their purpose is and show someone using it in a fighting context. I can do that for the Bjj video you posted quite easily.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't practice that kata and that small little bit isn't clear on what many of those techniques even are to me since I don't have a reference point.  Give me the name and I can watch the whole thing and the transitions and give you applications.  You stated that you don't need to "break apart" the flow drill because it is all useful.  Yet, if you didn't know what the individual parts were for, then you couldn't break it apart to know what parts go with what part and it wouldn't be of any use.  I agree if you don't know what your kata is for then you aren't training kata properly. 

I showed the video for what the throw is, one hand high on the arm and the other grabbing the belt.

Once again you are COMPLETELY missing the point of kata.  You CAN pull out the "valuable techniques" to use.  The kata is a way to "store" all of that information about a system in an easy to remember way. 

Do you need kata to learn to fight? Nope, never said that.  Properly used, are kata beneficial? 

Yep.  I am done trying to show and highlight the many uses of kata and why they were a part of those fighting traditions since you don't understand it and nothing anyone says will change your mind.


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> I don't practice that kata and that small little bit isn't clear on what many of those techniques even are to me since I don't have a reference point.  Give me the name and I can watch the whole thing and the transitions and give you applications.  You stated that you don't need to "break apart" the flow drill because it is all useful.  Yet, if you didn't know what the individual parts were for, then you couldn't break it apart to know what parts go with what part and it wouldn't be of any use.  I agree if you don't know what your kata is for then you aren't training kata properly.



Again, why do you need to watch an ENTIRE kata to know what the individual techniques are supposed to do? Just by looking at that small snippet, I'm seeing the obvious strikes and kicks. The problem is that none of those strikes and kicks are practical, and will get your face caved in if you ever tried to use them against anyone who knows what they're doing (even someone who doesn't know what they're doing). Oh, I know, if you turn your hips with a 90 degree angle and tuck in your elbow just right, you're actually looking at a throw that will make a Judo black belt envious. 

I did karate for a very long time, and karate kata is loaded with that nonsense. The only thing worse than that are the charlatans who profit from making karateka believe that there's practical techniques to be found in those layers and layers of obsolete silliness. Bunkai is bunk, pure and simple. If you want to do karate dancing, that's your business. It's pretty to look at, and I suppose you can indulge yourself with the history of each kata, but if you're looking for anything practical beyond a workout, you're wasting your time.

Hence why fighting karateka look like kickboxers.



> I showed the video for what the throw is, one hand high on the arm and the other grabbing the belt.



One hand high and one hand low, and a quick turn does not equate into a hip throw. Compare your video to the gif. The movements aren't even REMOTELY similar in any respect. You can attempt to throw someone using those kata movements for the rest of your life, and you'll never hip throw anyone.



> Once again you are COMPLETELY missing the point of kata.



Hardly. The point of kata in the past was to catalogue techniques and transfer that knowledge because you weren't able to learn from a proper teacher. The problem is that those techniques are outdated and impractical. Today, kata serves zero purpose beyond being a pretty dance number for competitions, and a way for schools to pad their belt test requirements.

If you wish to practice kata, fine. However, the notion that there's some hidden, practical knowledge within them is one of the purest forms of martial arts BS.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If you wish to practice kata, fine. However, the notion that there's some hidden, practical knowledge within them is one of the purest forms of martial arts BS.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion however the flip side of the coin is there are probably a great many people that will look at the MA you are doing and think it is also MA BS.   That shouldn't change your opinion of what you do especially if you enjoy it and, more than likely, they will never appreciate what you do regardless of the time you take to explain it's beauty.   The fact is, there are many people, including myself, that enjoy doing katas and use them as part of our training to become better.  Are there better and/or more efficient ways to accomplish the same thing ?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  Will they bring you the same joy ?  Perhaps, perhaps not.   Does it matter ?  Only to the person spending the time doing it.   

Listen, I am certainly not a big fan of sketch MAists in any way and there are many schools in my area that I wouldn't spend an hour training in because I think it would be a complete waste of my time.   I also do not feel the need to convince anyone that the MA they are doing is BS.  We can spend some time on the floor together and they can come to their own conclusion.   

The internet makes it even easier for people to research MA so if the goal is to find the best one, how come the spectrum of schools is so varied in terms of well pretty much everything ?   It seems to me that people take MA for a number of reasons and some (if not a lot of them) have nothing to do with being an efficient fighter.


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinion however the flip side of the coin is there are probably a great many people that will look at the MA you are doing and think it is also MA BS.



Where did I say that any MA is BS? I merely said that a widespread practice within certain MAs are BS, and I gave multiple reasons why.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that any MA is BS? I merely said that a widespread practice within certain MAs are BS, and I gave multiple reasons why.


I think I quoted you where I took it as you say or imply that practicing kata is BS.  That could be your opinion and you are entitled to it.   Two people can look at the same thing and see totally different things.   From one practitioner to another I only suggest that you respect people's choices and let them do whatever voodoo that they want to do.  I say this because there are a lot of people that think what I do is pure craziness.   They are probably not all wrong.


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I think I quoted you where I took it as you say or imply that practicing kata is BS.  That could be your opinion and you are entitled to it.   Two people can look at the same thing and see totally different things.   From one practitioner to another I only suggest that you respect people's choices and let them do whatever voodoo that they want to do.  I say this because there are a lot of people that think what I do is pure craziness.   They are probably not all wrong.



Which it is. The belief that there is practical techniques hidden within the movements of kata is complete nonsense. Unfortunately there are charlatans who make their living peddling that nonsense to the masses. As I said in an earlier post, Bunkai is completely bunk.

Now if you wish to practice kata for health benefits, or to revel in the history of your chosen style, by all means. However, the idea that a knife hand attack is actually a highly complex throw is pure BS.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Which it is. The belief that there is practical techniques hidden within the movements of kata is complete nonsense. Unfortunately there are charlatans who make their living peddling that nonsense to the masses. As I said in an earlier post, Bunkai is completely bunk.
> 
> Now if you wish to practice kata for health benefits, or to revel in the history of your chosen style, by all means. However, the idea that a knife hand attack is actually a highly complex throw is pure BS.


Ha, ha, seems like you inflexible here and not able to concede that other people may have different ideas about things than you do.  There is probably no point in me spending any more effort trying to convince you that your viewpoint is only important to you.  Hopefully your literal thinking doesn't inhibit you in any other part of your life but I am assuming that it works for you in someway.   It does make growth through the exchange of ideas difficult but hey if that's the brand of voodoo you want to do, have at it.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Which it is. The belief that there is practical techniques hidden within the movements of kata is complete nonsense. Unfortunately there are charlatans who make their living peddling that nonsense to the masses. As I said in an earlier post, Bunkai is completely bunk.
> 
> Now if you wish to practice kata for health benefits, or to revel in the history of your chosen style, by all means. However, the idea that a knife hand attack is actually a highly complex throw is pure BS.



If you were never taught to properly read, the combination of letters on a page will be meaningless and confusing.  After all, how can a bunch of "chicken scratching" convey thoughts and ideas?  Illiterate people often put down "book learning" as irrelevant.  The same for people who do not understand kata.  If they were not properly taught (kata illiterate) the movements may be confusing and considered irrelevant, something for them to put down.

While I can read a few languages, I am ignorant in Arabic, and to me, their writing truly looks like chicken scratching.  It is incomprehensible to me.  But I would never take the position that just because it appears to be "nonsense" to me, those educated in it can't find true meaning in it.

I fully agree there are those who come up with ridiculous, unrealistic bunkai. (I dislike complex and elaborate bunkai.)  But that does not mean other's interpretation of bunkai is nonsense.  You need to consider the source and motivation :  Are they just ignorant, or maybe trying to appear to be an expert, or trying to be novel and carve out a seminar/YouTube niche?  Or do they have a real understanding of the style's techniques and how the kata evolved and what it really represents?

Sometimes a knife hand strike is a prelude to a grab and simple takedown, and sometimes, it's just a "karate chop."  All kata have application variants to handle the uncertainties of combat.  Targets, angles and follow-ups may change as the situation calls for.  Most all masters, past and present, encourage exploring these possible variants in one's study of kata.


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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> If you were never taught to properly read, the combination of letters on a page will be meaningless and confusing.  After all, how can a bunch of "chicken scratching" convey thoughts and ideas?  Illiterate people often put down "book learning" as irrelevant.  The same for people who do not understand kata.  If they were not properly taught (kata illiterate) the movements may be confusing and considered irrelevant, something for them to put down.
> 
> While I can read a few languages, I am ignorant in Arabic, and to me, their writing truly looks like chicken scratching.  It is incomprehensible to me.  But I would never take the position that just because it appears to be "nonsense" to me, those educated in it can't find true meaning in it.
> 
> ...



This is the other side of a nonsense I'm afraid. There is no deeper aspect to kata practice. You're simply learning a series of techniques and movements to string the techniques together. Again, the vast majority of those techniques are obsolete and impractical for modern fighting, which is why when Karateka tend to actually fight, they look like this;






That is the final expression of all of that pointless kata knowledge, and the most hilarious aspect of it all is that they end up with a terrible guard and awful footwork.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> This is the other side of a nonsense I'm afraid. There is no deeper aspect to kata practice. You're simply learning a series of techniques and movements to string the techniques together. Again, the vast majority of those techniques are obsolete and impractical for modern fighting, which is why when Karateka tend to actually fight, they look like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can hear the panic and uncertainty in their footsteps.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> This is the other side of a nonsense I'm afraid. There is no deeper aspect to kata practice. You're simply learning a series of techniques and movements to string the techniques together. Again, the vast majority of those techniques are obsolete and impractical for modern fighting, which is why when Karateka tend to actually fight, they look like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You say with complete confidence that there is no deeper aspect to kata training. Yet some folks who are into kata say the opposite. Why do you have to be right?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You say with complete confidence that there is no deeper aspect to kata training. Yet some folks who are into kata say the opposite. Why do you have to be right?


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You say with complete confidence that there is no deeper aspect to kata training. Yet some folks who are into kata say the opposite. Why do you have to be right?



I'm talking about the Bunkai nonsense. People are free to indulge in kata practice for other means.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2020)




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## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


>



The instructor talking over the kata practice was saying eye roll worthy stuff. Seriously bud, it's not that serious.

Also the Karate Nerd needs to take a long walk off a short bridge.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> The instructor talking over the kata practice was saying eye roll worthy stuff. Seriously bud, it's not that serious.
> 
> Also the Karate Nerd needs to take a long walk off a short bridge.


I wouldn't know didn't watch the whole thing. lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I'm talking about the Bunkai nonsense. People are free to indulge in kata practice for other means.


I’m sure they are glad to have your permission.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 10, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can hear the panic and uncertainty in their footsteps.



To be honest, these guys do not represent what point fighting is at the top level.    These are local weekend warriors at best who are at least off the couch.

It’s not my cup of tea in many ways but making these guys an example to support an argument is not necessarily an honest attempt at making a point.

Check out some matches in Karate Combat.  A lot of Shotokan guys there and they don’t look or sound panicked.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> To be honest, these guys do not represent what point fighting is at the top level.    These are local weekend warriors at best who are at least off the couch.
> 
> It’s not my cup of tea in many ways but making these guys an example to support an argument is not necessarily an honest attempt at making a point.
> 
> Check out some matches in Karate Combat.  A lot of Shotokan guys there and they don’t look or sound panicked.



Why isn't it honest? The "weekend warrior" constitutes the majority of karate practitioners. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of karate practitioners resemble those two guys than the top point fighters.



JowGaWolf said:


> I can hear the panic and uncertainty in their footsteps.



That tends to happen when you're in a striking art, and you're never really hit.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> To be honest, these guys do not represent what point fighting is at the top level.    These are local weekend warriors at best who are at least off the couch.
> 
> It’s not my cup of tea in many ways but making these guys an example to support an argument is not necessarily an honest attempt at making a point.
> 
> Check out some matches in Karate Combat.  A lot of Shotokan guys there and they don’t look or sound panicked.


That's fair.  I wouldn't use them as a sample for Sample for their system.  There was a lot in that video that would make me put them in the beginners box for sparring. 

In my mind there are Beginners, Intermediates and Advance.   Everyone should be able to get close to Intermediate performance.  Advance level would be professional level or high level competition fighters.   A martial art system should be practical enough to anyone who is interested in fighting with it, into the Intermediate range.  I would use those students to show what "everyday people" can do. I would use them as a sample., because face it.  Not everyone is interested in being a professional fighter, nor do they have that much time to commit to it in general.

A person can be highly skilled in the Intermediate level.  But don't train as professional fighter or competitive fighter would have to.  Those guys in the video would be on the lower end of the Beginners (for application) in my book.  Like the guy with the short legs and bad flexibility.  He should be trying to use the techniques and limitations that work best for his short legs.  Like strategies based on close range fighting.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's fair.  I wouldn't use them as a sample for Sample for their system.  There was a lot in that video that would make me put them in the beginners box for sparring.
> 
> In my mind there are Beginners, Intermediates and Advance.   Everyone should be able to get close to Intermediate performance.  Advance level would be professional level or high level competition fighters.   A martial art system should be practical enough to anyone who is interested in fighting with it, into the Intermediate range.  I would use those students to show what "everyday people" can do. I would use them as a sample., because face it.  Not everyone is interested in being a professional fighter, nor do they have that much time to commit to it in general.
> 
> A person can be highly skilled in the Intermediate level.  But don't train as professional fighter or competitive fighter would have to.  Those guys in the video would be on the lower end of the Beginners (for application) in my book.  Like the guy with the short legs and bad flexibility.  He should be trying to use the techniques and limitations that work best for his short legs.  Like strategies based on close range fighting.



Both of those guys were black belts.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> That tends to happen when you're in a striking art, and you're never really hit.


I agree.  originally typed out that very same thing and how I would have fixed it.  That's the one thing that I don't like about today's point sparring, which has turned into a game of tag.  It removes the reality that we are going to get hit, no matter how good we think we are.  It also ignores the reality that not every strike needs to be avoided and not every strike is going to be "the most powerful strike" Block, redirects, and jams can be viewed as different ways that one may be hit.  Point sparring takes all of that away and creates fragile practitioners.

I would have had those 2 students stand in front of each other and I would tell them to take turns hitting and kicking each other in various places (non vital and not the face).  If your partner says you can hit them harder then up the power a tad.  This will not only give them an idea of what they should expect to feel.   It also, helps to other partner to know how hard to hit and kick.  Then I would tell them to buy a decent head gear and mouth piece and let them go at it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Both of those guys were black belts.


I don't follow the belt system.  I go by what my eyes and ears tell me anything else with belts either gets translated into what I use to keep my pants up and what kids get spanked with.  And for martial arts it's just blah, blah, blah.

I know there are some black belts in here, but their belt has no meaning for me, nor does it give me an accurate understanding of their fighting ability.  So their belt translates into blah, blah, blah.  And that's not me being disrespectful.  That's just me being honest.  I've sparred and fought with people who were black belts and the belt is just a poor measurement of fighting ability.  I could literally join a karate school Start off without a belt and have people think that I can't fight because I don't have a belt.  When I watched that video, I didn't even bother looking at their belts.

The reality is that sometimes a black belt means they are good with the kata and terminology of the system.  It's not the same standard that it used to represent.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 10, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't follow the belt system.  I go by what my eyes and ears tell me anything else with belts either gets translated into what I use to keep my pants up and what kids get spanked with.  And for martial arts it's just blah, blah, blah.
> 
> I know there are some black belts in here, but their belt has no meaning for me, nor does it give me an accurate understanding of their fighting ability.  So their belt translates into blah, blah, blah.  And that's not me being disrespectful.  That's just me being honest.  I've sparred and fought with people who were black belts and the belt is just a poor measurement of fighting ability.  I could literally join a karate school Start off without a belt and have people think that I can't fight because I don't have a belt.  When I watched that video, I didn't even bother looking at their belts.
> 
> The reality is that sometimes a black belt means they are good with the kata and terminology of the system.  It's not the same standard that it used to represent.



I find it interesting that BJJ still has a certain level of quality expectation and control within its belt system, whereas other MAs have apparently dumped their quality control by the wayside. You're expected to have a pretty high level of technical skill as a BJJ black belt, and because of that it's notoriously difficult to get one. I think that's in large part because your instructor's name is attached to your black belt, so if you suck, that looks poorly on them.

Obviously that isn't the case in all martial arts, and that watering down of standards is why we have the general attitude that belts are just there to hold up pants, instead of being a standard of what your technical skill is supposed to be.

Which leads us once again to this;


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I find it interesting that BJJ still has a certain level of quality expectation and control within its belt system, whereas other MAs have apparently dumped their quality control by the wayside. You're expected to have a pretty high level of technical skill as a BJJ black belt, and because of that it's notoriously difficult to get one. I think that's in large part because your instructor's name is attached to your black belt, so if you suck, that looks poorly on them.
> 
> Obviously that isn't the case in all martial arts, and that watering down of standards is why we have the general attitude that belts are just there to hold up pants, instead of being a standard of what your technical skill is supposed to be.
> 
> Which leads us once again to this;



On this we can agree.  Any time a martial art becomes commercial and changed to appeal to a wide audience base, the quality goes down so it can be marketed to a mass appeal.  Hardcore fighting classes don't pay the bills for most schools to keep the doors open.  In our area, they usually offer other classes for "the masses" and have separate classes for those who want to fight more.


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Again, why do you need to watch an ENTIRE kata to know what the individual techniques are supposed to do? Just by looking at that small snippet, I'm seeing the obvious strikes and kicks. The problem is that none of those strikes and kicks are practical, and will get your face caved in if you ever tried to use them against anyone who knows what they're doing (even someone who doesn't know what they're doing). Oh, I know, if you turn your hips with a 90 degree angle and tuck in your elbow just right, you're actually looking at a throw that will make a Judo black belt envious.
> 
> I did karate for a very long time, and karate kata is loaded with that nonsense. The only thing worse than that are the charlatans who profit from making karateka believe that there's practical techniques to be found in those layers and layers of obsolete silliness. Bunkai is bunk, pure and simple. If you want to do karate dancing, that's your business. It's pretty to look at, and I suppose you can indulge yourself with the history of each kata, but if you're looking for anything practical beyond a workout, you're wasting your time.
> 
> ...



Out of curiousity, what style of karate?  Shotokan is infamous and Funakoshi was quite open that he changed the kata from fighting to health benefits.

You call the strikes impractical, yet that is the problem the original Okinawan karate wasn't all strikes and kicks.  It contained standup grappling techniques.  It was also meant for close in fighting (clinch distance) and not the newer sport style distance that is used.  Which is why without seeing the whole movement, I can't tell what they are even doing for the most part in that small repeating gif.

BUT, I do want to add that I do agree with you in regards to some "applications" that I have seen peddled are pure BS.  I also agree that some are peddled by pure charlatans.  For example, after BJJ became popular, I saw some "karotty guys" teaching that the crossover step in Naihanchi kata was _really _a hidden move that taught the triangle choke.  

Honestly, I think overall we are closer in agreement than it may seem.  From my background I make the assumption that karate styles are more in line with what I know and forget that many were katas were changed when they went to Japan and lost much of what they were supposed to teach.  Also, that some moves have applications that are no longer relevant to our modern society.  For example, in Kusanku there is a move where you bring your hand to the back of your head and then strike with a shuto.  The application was teaching how to use an Okinawan hairpin (think knitting needle in size) as an improvised weapon.  Most teach it as a chamber to get more power.  So again, I do agree that there are some applications that aren't applicable outside the history of a style getting passed on.

Where we do disagree is that some of the moves aren't obvious because they aren't meant to be striking techniques, but they aren't "secret" either.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Both of those guys were black belts.


If they drove Beemers and wore Armani suits would that mean they are captains of industry as well ?  If what you wear is an indication of what is inside, books should be judged by their covers.

Putting too much weight around the belt someone wears is not a great idea.   So is putting too little.   The truth will always come out on the dojo floor and the best fighters are the ones that take nothing for granted.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Out of curiousity, what style of karate?  Shotokan is infamous and Funakoshi was quite open that he changed the kata from fighting to health benefits.
> 
> You call the strikes impractical, yet that is the problem the original Okinawan karate wasn't all strikes and kicks.  It contained standup grappling techniques.  It was also meant for close in fighting (clinch distance) and not the newer sport style distance that is used.  Which is why without seeing the whole movement, I can't tell what they are even doing for the most part in that small repeating gif.
> 
> ...



I do largely agree with most of that, and yes my background is in Shotokan, but I do see similar problems crop up in various Karate and Kung Fu styles where kata/forms are abundant. I do understand that Karate kata were streamlined when they entered Japan, but even practitioners of Okinawan karate end up fighting like kickboxers. The exotic movements are nowhere to be found, but are instead replaced with your standard jab, straight, and various types of kicks. It also should be said that the Okinawan Karate bunkai is just as terrible as the Bunkai you see for the Japanese styles.


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> If they drove Beemers and wore Armani suits would that mean they are captains of industry as well ?  If what you wear is an indication of what is inside, books should be judged by their covers.
> 
> Putting too much weight around the belt someone wears is not a great idea.   So is putting too little.   The truth will always come out on the dojo floor and the best fighters are the ones that take nothing for granted.



If someone is wearing a black belt, that SHOULD be an indication that they have achieved a high level of proficiency in a given martial art. If they have a black belt, but their skill is poor, then that is an indictment on the style they practice, and the level/type of instruction they received. The fact that people now say that belts don't matter is merely an indicator of how far a lot of martial arts have fallen in instruction, and the fact that many schools are nothing more than belt factories.

Again, look at Bjj. In Bjj a black belt still carries a high level of significance. So much so that there are actually people who have no desire to attain it because of all the responsibility it carries. If you beat a legit black belt in Bjj, it's still considered an accomplishment. If you beat a black belt in Karate or a black sash in Kung fu, it's just a Tuesday. That's definitely something to think about.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If someone is wearing a black belt, that SHOULD be an indication that they have achieved a high level of proficiency in a given martial art. If they have a black belt, but their skill is poor, then that is an indictment on the style they practice, and the level/type of instruction they received. The fact that people now say that belts don't matter is merely an indicator of how far a lot of martial arts have fallen in instruction, and the fact that many schools are nothing more than belt factories.
> 
> Again, look at Bjj. In Bjj a black belt still carries a high level of significance. So much so that there are actually people who have no desire to attain it because of all the responsibility it carries. If you beat a legit black belt in Bjj, it's still considered an accomplishment. If you beat a black belt in Karate or a black sash in Kung fu, it's just a Tuesday. That's definitely something to think about.


"Should" is the operative word but it doesn't because the allure of 'faking', 'overselling', 'pretending' or whatever you want to call it, appeals to a subsection of the population.   I am sure you are not saying that this DOESN'T happen in BJJ circles.   According to your theory, if these fakes or whatever you want call them exist in BJJ, how would this be different than any other MA and would they not also devalue BJJ black belts ?


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 11, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> For example, in Kusanku there is a move where you bring your hand to the back of your head and then strike with a shuto. The application was teaching how to use an Okinawan hairpin


I mostly and often agree with your posts, but the old "hidden hair pin" technique???  I agree the hand is not coming back just to chamber for power (this is contrary to Okinawan practice).  Perhaps that hand is parrying or grabbing prior to the shuto?  Whatever the variant of this kata your style uses, I'd look to a more practical bunkai to this move.



Hanzou said:


> but even practitioners of Okinawan karate end up fighting like kickboxers. The exotic movements are nowhere to be found, but are instead replaced with your standard jab, straight, and various types of kicks.



Elbow strikes were used in pre-1960's football, (maybe not legal then, but not enforced either) but this sport's rules have changed over the decades and these "movements are nowhere to be found" nowadays, for the most part.  The rules of the sport dictate the techniques used.  Just because you don't see the "exotic" moves by Okinawan practitioners when sparring, does not mean they don't exist or work in combat.  It's that rules of sparring dictate jabs, common kicks, etc.  That's what gets the points.  Not the joint breaks, groin kicks, or throat strikes which are forbidden.  These moves are found in kata, though.   Surely you realize these things by now from all the postings you've exchanged and read.  All you need to do now is take off your blinders and get past your bias.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> "Should" is the operative word but it doesn't because the allure of 'faking', 'overselling', 'pretending' or whatever you want to call it, appeals to a subsection of the population.   I am sure you are not saying that this DOESN'T happen in BJJ circles.   According to your theory, if these fakes or whatever you want call them exist in BJJ, how would this be different than any other MA and would they not also devalue BJJ black belts ?



It's rather hard to fake a black belt in BJJ. People are going to want to roll with you constantly, and they want to know who gave you a black belt. If you can't verify where your black belt came from, that's going to send a signal that you aren't legit, and you're going to start getting people popping up in your gym to see what's going on.

Beyond that, if you're getting tapped by white belts and blue belts, your school isn't going to be open for very long. If your students are getting crushed in competition, again your school isn't going to last long. If a blue belt from the BJJ school across town comes into your gym and submits the entire school including the instructor, your school isn't going to last long. 

In short, unlike other martial arts, it's simply not worth it to fake a BJJ black belt.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Elbow strikes were used in pre-1960's football, (maybe not legal then, but not enforced either) but this sport's rules have changed over the decades and these "movements are nowhere to be found" nowadays, for the most part.  The rules of the sport dictate the techniques used.  Just because you don't see the "exotic" moves by Okinawan practitioners when sparring, does not mean they don't exist or work in combat.  It's that rules of sparring dictate jabs, common kicks, etc.  That's what gets the points.  Not the joint breaks, groin kicks, or throat strikes which are forbidden.  These moves are found in kata, though.   Surely you realize these things by now from all the postings you've exchanged and read.  All you need to do now is take off your blinders and get past your bias.



If those techniques are forbidden, they're not being practiced, and that makes them obsolete in terms of modern Okinawan karate practice.

It's no different than Judo making leg locks and wrist locks forbidden in practice. Yeah they exist in the kata, but good luck running into a Judoka who can do effective leg and wrist locks. If you're not using them in sparring, they might as well not exist.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Nov 11, 2020)

There are some good videos comparring kata to thier exact counterparts in mma


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> There are some good videos comparring kata to thier exact counterparts in mma



Hilarious. This is that Bunkai nonsense I was talking about earlier. I especially liked the part where he took the completely impractical double punch and tried to say it was a takedown.

Also "Okinawan Karate: The original MMA"..... LoL!! Simply embarrassing on just about every imaginable level.

That garbage really needs to stop.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> It's rather hard to fake a black belt in BJJ. People are going to want to roll with you constantly, and they want to know who gave you a black belt. If you can't verify where your black belt came from, that's going to send a signal that you aren't legit, and you're going to start getting people popping up in your gym to see what's going on.
> 
> Beyond that, if you're getting tapped by white belts and blue belts, your school isn't going to be open for very long. If your students are getting crushed in competition, again your school isn't going to last long. If a blue belt from the BJJ school across town comes into your gym and submits the entire school including the instructor, your school isn't going to last long.
> 
> In short, unlike other martial arts, it's simply not worth it to fake a BJJ black belt.


The liklihood of 'fakes' and 'pretenders' can happen across ANY MA.   If you train in a fake Kyokushin school and go to any competition, everyone will see for themselves the quality of the school you attend.  It is not worth it to fake it but it happens.  It definitely happens in BJJ and that hasn't seemingly devalued your opinion of them.  Why should it be different for any other MA ?


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> The liklihood of 'fakes' and 'pretenders' can happen across ANY MA.   If you train in a fake Kyokushin school and go to any competition, everyone will see for themselves the quality of the school you attend.  It is not worth it to fake it but it happens.  It definitely happens in BJJ and that hasn't seemingly devalued your opinion of them.  Why should it be different for any other MA ?



And again, the fake schools in BJJ don't last long or propagate, whereas the fake schools in Karate do. The martial culture within BJJ itself doesn't allow that level of degrade to happen on the level you see in other martial arts.

Again, why? Because of the level of sparring, and the consistent contact with competing schools. In karate you can fake knowing a kata or how to kick and punch. In BJJ, you can't fake the Guard, escaping from dominant positions, or performing submissions. If you're a complete phony, that stuff simply isn't going to work against a resisting opponent.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Hilarious. This is that Bunkai nonsense I was talking about earlier. I especially liked the part where he took the completely impractical double punch and tried to say it was a takedown.
> 
> Also "Okinawan Karate: The original MMA"..... LoL!! Simply embarrassing on just about every imaginable level.
> 
> That garbage really needs to stop.



The mountain punch your refering to can be a throw, body hold escape, an uppercut/shovel hook and overhand combo, ect. - it is a versatile technique


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> The mountain punch your refering to can be a throw, body hold escape, an uppercut/shovel hook and overhand combo, ect.



Do you have any examples of a Karateka performing the "Mountain Punch" against a resisting opponent? I'd love to see it.


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 11, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I mostly and often agree with your posts, but the old "hidden hair pin" technique???  I agree the hand is not coming back just to chamber for power (this is contrary to Okinawan practice).  Perhaps that hand is parrying or grabbing prior to the shuto?  Whatever the variant of this kata your style uses, I'd look to a more practical bunkai to this move.



Here is an interview with Hohan Soken who also references that Kusanku was frequently practiced with the "Jiffa" or hair pins in your hands.
FightingArts.com - Interview With Hohan Soken: The Last Of The Great Old Time Karate Warriors ? Part 1

Chotoku Kyan also taught many applications in Kusanku used the Jiffa.  Here is a picture of the "weird chamber" I was referencing, but in the Yara Kusanku, which is one of the older versions of Kusanku the hand is completly behind the head.  If you look at later versions the chamber is done differently and is more to the side of the head or to the front and is taught as a deflection or chamber.





This move was taught by Chotoku Kyan as pulling out a Jiffa.  I am sure that people could assign other applications to it, but this was one of the orginal applications that were passed down that we know for sure.

As an aside, with your "Isshinryu" reference in your screen name.  That is also one of the big controversies in regards to Kusanku.  Chotoku Kyan taught it as a night fighting kata and Tatsuo Shimabuku taught it as a night fighting kata, yet there are many karate people out there who deny it has applications and strategies to be used at night and say that it is a myth.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If those techniques are forbidden, they're not being practiced, and that makes them obsolete in terms of modern Okinawan karate practice.
> 
> It's no different than Judo making leg locks and wrist locks forbidden in practice. Yeah they exist in the kata, but good luck running into a Judoka who can do effective leg and wrist locks. If you're not using them in sparring, they might as well not exist.


Your 1st comment is wrong.  Of course you can practice forbidden moves not allowed in competition.  But there is truth to the fact that practice is not the same as actual employment against a live, resisting opponent.  But how do you practice deadly or maiming techniques in the gym against live resisting opponents?   If all the students are in the ground or hospital, there will be no revenue coming in - not good for business.  So, we must settle for kata or other type of practice for these moves.  How do they practice killing moves in Special Forces CQC?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I find it interesting that BJJ still has a certain level of quality expectation and control within its belt system, whereas other MAs have apparently dumped their quality control by the wayside. You're expected to have a pretty high level of technical skill as a BJJ black belt, and because of that it's notoriously difficult to get one. I think that's in large part because your instructor's name is attached to your black belt, so if you suck, that looks poorly on them.
> 
> Obviously that isn't the case in all martial arts, and that watering down of standards is why we have the general attitude that belts are just there to hold up pants, instead of being a standard of what your technical skill is supposed to be.
> 
> Which leads us once again to this;


I think it all changed when Martial arts started being promoted as Discipline, Respect, and Honor classes.   When i was a kid Martial Arts were about fighting and being able to fight.  Some people take martial arts classes and have never experience having the "wind knocked out of them" from a punch or a kick.  Then the schools here became too strict on fighting at school where a child can get suspended for defending him or herself, Then bullying increased because all of the good kids were more afraid of being suspended than of being beaten up.


Hanzou said:


> I especially liked the part where he took the completely impractical double punch


The double punch is very practical.  I've nailed everyone I've used it against.  It's not a slow technique at all.  I have video of me using it, and they only way you know that I used it, is because you hear comments made about it.  Other than that you would have thought I just threw a regular punch.  I've shown video of this in MT in the past.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 11, 2020)

punisher73 said:


> Here is an interview with Hohan Soken who also references that Kusanku was frequently practiced with the "Jiffa" or hair pins in your hands.
> FightingArts.com - Interview With Hohan Soken: The Last Of The Great Old Time Karate Warriors ? Part 1
> 
> Chotoku Kyan also taught many applications in Kusanku used the Jiffa.  Here is a picture of the "weird chamber" I was referencing, but in the Yara Kusanku, which is one of the older versions of Kusanku the hand is completly behind the head.  If you look at later versions the chamber is done differently and is more to the side of the head or to the front and is taught as a deflection or chamber.
> ...



Thanks for the link and info (first I've heard of jiffa used by men), but....

While Hohan and Kyan Sensei may have employed/adapted weapons to Kusanku, (Shimabuku a developed a sai version) the kata was likely designed without jiffa, sai or other weapon in mind, their use being a later thought by these great Masters.  The photo you show is the move I had in mind, and if the rear hand is really drawing out a hair pin, why is the next move a kick?  Where is the stab? 

This rear hand (as shown in the photo) is likely in the position after a parry.  That hand can now grab the attacker's wrist, and the front hand after the shuto strike (as shown in the photo) can grab the shoulder or back of neck.  This is followed by a kick, plant, pivot and takedown.  This is one effective and realistic application to the series of moves (as done in some styles and is consistent with Okinawan fighting doctrine.)

As for the night fighting interpretation, it made for a good story told to American soldiers who brought Isshinryu back to the USA.  Framing the moon and brushing away branches in the opening move, stomping the ground to distract the opponent in the dark, dropping to the ground after the jumping crescent kick to hide in the shadows, and so on.  There are more practical (and less fanciful) bunkai interpretations to these moves that can be used any time of day, IMO.  This opinion is shared by some current Okinawan masters.

Suffice it to say there are many stories, versions and misinterpretations in karate due to the lack of written documentation.  It is possible that the Americans who briefly studied in Okinawa (usually for less than 2 years, and don't forget, this time period was only 10-16 years after we bombed the hell out of the island and dropped a couple of atomic bombs on their mainland) were not told the true bunkai (oyo or hidden meaning) by the Chauvinistic Orientals (meant with respect).

All we can do is have an open mind, understand the history the best we can, believe what we may, stay true to practical and realistic combat principles, and love the art.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 11, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> The photo you show is the move I had in mind, and if the rear hand is really drawing out a hair pin, why is the next move a kick? Where is the stab?


I guess this is just me, but some hand movement's are used as distractions.  In Jow Ga we have a couple of hand movements that are used to draw the eye's attention from from the strike.

If that raised hand doesn't do any thing, then's it could very well be a distraction that is used which increases the the success rate of the technique.  We have to remember that sometimes in martial arts that extra movement of a hand may not have a physical use,  but it's possible that it may have a mental use.  When people cut techniques in a form short and then complain about it not working.  Sometimes it's because they cut out the distraction that actually helps make the technique more successful.

Jow Ga kung fu uses distractions with the techniques which is how I'm able to have a lot of success with landing my techniques.  But i throw it away because I think it's useless then I may be throwing away the very thing that makes it work.

Here is how I see it.  

The left hand is behind the head.  
My thoughts on that.  A lot of people will say watch your opponents eyes.  Left hand is eye level.  So if you are fighting this guy and watching his eyes, that hand will easy draw your attention. Which means you aren't paying attention to the strike that just landed on your neck or on your front guard (lead hand.)

The right hand that has just struck you now you are distracted again.  So the right hand that strikes you hides his kick.  While your brain is using up seconds to 1st react to the hand behind the head, then 2nd react to the strike to your guard, the kick is now on it's way..   I haven't seen the form, but I would be surprise if a kick follows immediately after.   The cross stance also hides your kick and makes you appear to be open when you really aren't.   If your brain sees this, then it may suddenly waste more time by trying to react to the fact that you look open.

One of the ways to interrupt the flow of an opponent's attack is to to make your opponent think.  Once you do that, he becomes slower and indecisive, which makes it easier to land a successful attack.


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Your 1st comment is wrong.  Of course you can practice forbidden moves not allowed in competition. But there is truth to the fact that practice is not the same as actual employment against a live, resisting opponent.  But how do you practice deadly or maiming techniques in the gym against live resisting opponents?   If all the students are in the ground or hospital, there will be no revenue coming in - not good for business.  So, we must settle for kata or other type of practice for these moves.  How do they practice killing moves in Special Forces CQC?



Simple; Your partner submits or taps out in practice. This has been known since Jigoro Kano founded Judo 140 years ago. If someone has their partner in a shoulder lock for example (Kimura), the person in the lock knows if the pressure is continued to be applied, their shoulder will be dislocated, so they surrender or tap to their partner. If someone holds a choke too long, they will pass out, so again, they tap out before they lose consciousness. That's how you practice deadly and maiming techniques without harming your partners.

We know these techniques work because there's plenty of evidence from street fights, competitions, accidents, and MMA where people either get choked out, or get their limbs broken. Further, since you practice these techniques against resisting opponents constantly, it increases your ability to pull off those techniques under duress.


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The double punch is very practical.  I've nailed everyone I've used it against.  It's not a slow technique at all.  I have video of me using it, and they only way you know that I used it, is because you hear comments made about it.  Other than that you would have thought I just threw a regular punch.  I've shown video of this in MT in the past.



Yeah, I'd need to see it being used by someone in a competition or a fight when something is actually on the line.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I'd need to see it being used by someone in a competition or a fight when something is actually on the line.


I definitely would use it in a fight, on in a competition.  I think I'll be able to get at land at least 3 out of 3 before I need to worry about getting caught.  I know why the technique works and the limitations of it.  I was explaining the science behind it with my son and he's always trying to be a smart *** about what I say in kung fu.   He in that stage where he's going to show that I'm wrong.  So I explain the science, then I do the technique as I'm explaining it, and I'm only doing the technique to oneside,  then I spot that smartass look on his face like he's going do the opposite of what I'm telling him is a natural reaction of how the body works.  So I tell him what I'm going to do.  He has already seen me demo it on him 3 times, and I tell him I know what will happen. 

My son just knows he can beat nature and show me up.  So I do the technique in a different direction and everything that I said about how he would respond and how the body would respond happened exactly how I said it would.   He busted out laughing because he know his ole man got him.  There's a lot of science in TMA, but often people try to operate outside of the parameters of success.

I actually look at TMA, mainly Jow Ga (cause that's what I do) as a study in human behavior.  Which is why I often say trust the technique,  Even though it doesn't seem like it, there's a good chance it will work, because it's based on human behavior.  Everyone that I've done a double punch on had the exact same reaction and that tells me that there is something about the technique that exploits human behavior and human response.  It becomes reliable because it exploits human nature.

People who like to "stir the bot" always know they will be successful in doing so, because they exploit human behavior and how people often react when it comes to personal beliefs.  Human nature, human response, human behavior are really consistent. Laws in society are often the same in most countries because human be behavior is that reliable.

A lot of people try to use the double punch as a long technique, but it's actual a close range technique.


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I definitely would use it in a fight, on in a competition.  I think I'll be able to get at land at least 3 out of 3 before I need to worry about getting caught.  I know why the technique works and the limitations of it.  I was explaining the science behind it with my son and he's always trying to be a smart *** about what I say in kung fu.   He in that stage where he's going to show that I'm wrong.  So I explain the science, then I do the technique as I'm explaining it, and I'm only doing the technique to oneside,  then I spot that smartass look on his face like he's going do the opposite of what I'm telling him is a natural reaction of how the body works.  So I tell him what I'm going to do.  He has already seen me demo it on him 3 times, and I tell him I know what will happen.
> 
> My son just knows he can beat nature and show me up.  So I do the technique in a different direction and everything that I said about how he would respond and how the body would respond happened exactly how I said it would.   He busted out laughing because he know his ole man got him.  There's a lot of science in TMA, but often people try to operate outside of the parameters of success.
> 
> ...



Cool.

Again, I would need to see this being used in a context where someone is really avoiding getting their head knocked off. That could be a street fight, a MMA fight, a competition, whatever. Your personal sparring accounts are simply not enough.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Cool.
> 
> Again, I would need to see this being used in a context where someone is really avoiding getting their head knocked off. That could be a street fight, a MMA fight, a competition, whatever. Your personal sparring accounts are simply not enough.


You are moving the goalposts a bit, Hanzou. You asked earlier about someone using it against a resisting opponent. While anecdotal evidence isn't great, it's a step toward what you asked for.


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You are moving the goalposts a bit, Hanzou. You asked earlier about someone using it against a resisting opponent. While anecdotal evidence isn't great, it's a step toward what you asked for.



Actually this is what I asked;



> Yeah, I'd need to see it being used by someone in a competition or a fight when something is actually on the line.



Play fighting with your friends doesn't really apply.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Your partner submits or taps out in practice.



*We are not talking submission holds*, here, where one can add gradual pressure over time.  My post concerned strikes to the throat, eyes or joint kicks that have immediate results.  These are the moves forbidden in competition as there is not a thing as a gradual eye poke or crushed larynx submission.  Once again you seem to side step the main point to avoid giving credit to TMA or the techniques found in kata (when properly interpreted.)


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> *We are not talking submission holds*, here, where one can add gradual pressure over time.  My post concerned strikes to the throat, eyes or joint kicks that have immediate results.  These are the moves forbidden in competition as there is not a thing as a gradual eye poke or crushed larynx submission.  Once again you seem to side step the main point to avoid giving credit to TMA or the techniques found in kata (when properly interpreted.)



Actually there are submissions that crush the larynx. 

Anyway, no there's no safe way to practice techniques like that, which thus turns them into low percentage attacks, and if you're not practicing them on a consistent basis on a resisting partner, that makes those attacks next to useless.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Actually this is what I asked;
> 
> 
> 
> Play fighting with your friends doesn't really apply.


Yes, that's where you moved them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 11, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Actually there are submissions that crush the larynx.
> 
> Anyway, no there's no safe way to practice techniques like that, which thus turns them into low percentage attacks, and if you're not practicing them on a consistent basis on a resisting partner, that makes those attacks next to useless.


Some of them are next to techniques that can be practiced with resistance. With those, drills can be used to work on developing the mechanics for applying the secondary technique, while the more common technique is used to develop the control and positioning used to get there (for both techniques).

There are others that are fringe techniques from the start.


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## Hanzou (Nov 11, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, that's where you moved them.



No I didn't. That was the first time I was responding to JowGa.



gpseymour said:


> Some of them are next to techniques that can be practiced with resistance. With those, drills can be used to work on developing the mechanics for applying the secondary technique, while the more common technique is used to develop the control and positioning used to get there (for both techniques).
> 
> There are others that are fringe techniques from the start.



Which means nothing really. Take a throat strike for example. What's the general purpose for a throat strike? It's the belief that if you strike the throat you can immobilize your attacker. However, you've never actually hit a multitude of training partners in the throat so you're not prepared for the multitude of variables and responses that come into play if you do it. It's a theory that you've never really tested on a live resisting opponent.

You ever hit a training partner in the throat who had a Boxing background? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in the throat who outweighed you by about 100 lbs and had a thick muscle neck? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in throat who had you in an inferior grappling position? Nope. You ever hit a training partner in the throat and it had zero effect on them? Nope. You ever hit ANY training partner in the throat period? More than likely, Nope.

So what are you basing your proficiency in throat punching on?

Hopes and dreams, that's what.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> No I didn't. That was the first time I was responding to JowGa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's very much overstating the issue. I don't think MMA fighters train live eye pokes (I'll bet it's pretty rare to train them, at all), but the reactions they run into from them don't create mass confusion and huge openings for their opponent. Why? Because most of those reactions are similar to reactions they'd get from neighboring strikes.

So, does it matter if I've ever throat-punched a boxer? Not really. Because I've punched a boxer in nearby locations (fairly, theyve punched me more often), so I know the range and set-up. Does it matter if I hit someone and they don't react? Not really. Because I've punched people in other ways and had them not react. Like any punch, it can have a wide range of results.

Now, if someone is training a throat punch as a high-percentage fight ender, that's a problem for all the reasons you're hinting at: it might not be as effective as they think, it might not work on some people, and it might miss. But if they treat it as a target of opportunity and expect no more than they would from a punch to the liver, then what's the issue?


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That's very much overstating the issue. I don't think MMA fighters train live eye pokes (I'll bet it's pretty rare to train them, at all), but the reactions they run into from them don't create mass confusion and huge openings for their opponent. Why? Because most of those reactions are similar to reactions they'd get from neighboring strikes.



And those are accidental strikes. That's like someone getting their fingers ripped off from getting caught in a gi and saying that ripping someone's fingers off with clothing is an effective technique.



> So, does it matter if I've ever throat-punched a boxer? Not really. Because I've punched a boxer in nearby locations (fairly, theyve punched me more often), so I know the range and set-up. Does it matter if I hit someone and they don't react? Not really. Because I've punched people in other ways and had them not react. Like any punch, it can have a wide range of results.



Of course it matters. For example, Boxers and kick boxers tend to tuck their chins, making throat strikes near impossible. So since you've never throat punched a Boxer, you're going to believe that you can actually pull it off, not knowing that your technique is pretty much useless against that type of opponent. That's knowledge you would have known if you actually tried that technique in training against a variety of opponents.



> Now, if someone is training a throat punch as a high-percentage fight ender, that's a problem for all the reasons you're hinting at: it might not be as effective as they think, it might not work on some people, and it might miss. But if they treat it as a target of opportunity and expect no more than they would from a punch to the liver, then what's the issue?



Well that's what we're talking about here. People think that since it's a "forbidden technique" it changes the entire outcome when they're employed.


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## dvcochran (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> No I didn't. That was the first time I was responding to JowGa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You just devolved your argument into the silly realm. You just framed your training as 100% , 100% of the time which we all know is bs. You Never practice a drill at reduced speed or power? Use a leg/arm/hand as a target? Do you break the bone of your target every time? Of course not. What @gpseymour described is Exactly the same. 
C'mon man. The "Hulk smash!" mantra is getting really old and unbecoming.


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You just devolved your argument into the silly realm. You just framed your training as 100% , 100% of the time which we all know is bs.



Where did I say I train 100% all of the time?



> You Never practice a drill at reduced speed or power?



Of course.



> Use a leg/arm/hand as a target?



What?



> Do you break the bone of your target every time? Of course not.



Where did I ever say I did?



> What @gpseymour described is Exactly the same.



No it's not. If I'm rolling with someone and catch them in a Kimura and they tap out, I got them in a Kimura. Why? Because if I keep going in the direction I was going, their shoulder will be dislocated. Keep in mind, I'm rolling against skinny people, huge people, fat people, fit people, short people, tall people, and everyone in between. So if I'm catching all of those people with my Kimura lock, chances are I'll catch someone in a Kimura lock trying to cave my face in, regardless of the variables.

That's quite a bit different than theories about throat strikes and eye gouges that you've never done.


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## dvcochran (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say I train 100% all of the time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Correct me it I am wrong but you chose the throat analogy. There are distinct difference in striking versus grappling training. But surely you understand there are tools like a BOB that allow a person to train strikes are full speed AND drills with resistance that allow you to practice an endless amount of scenarios. There is never only ONE way to do a strike/attack/submission right? 

So when you are rolling do you do a Kimura lock the exact same way Only when you and your partner are in one specific position? Of course not. But that is exactly how you are framing certain TMA training. You have to think bigger/higher than that. If a person cannot do that I suspect they are going to suck at whatever style they practice.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> And those are accidental strikes. That's like someone getting their fingers ripped off from getting caught in a gi and saying that ripping someone's fingers off with clothing is an effective technique.


I rather agree with that. I see most of the fringe technques as things to explore for intellectual curiosity and to try to understand the effect they might have, in case that effect happens. Not much more you can do with it.



> Of course it matters. For example, Boxers and kick boxers tend to tuck their chins, making throat strikes near impossible. So since you've never throat punched a Boxer, you're going to believe that you can actually pull it off, not knowing that your technique is pretty much useless against that type of opponent. That's knowledge you would have known if you actually tried that technique in training against a variety of opponents.


Good point. I think the difference is you're thinking of the technique as something to try for. I'm thinking of it as something that either just happens (like most eye pokes in MMA), or is just a matter of availability (so if a boxer keeps his head tucked, you simply don't reach for that technique).



> Well that's what we're talking about here. People think that since it's a "forbidden technique" it changes the entire outcome when they're employed.


Some folks do. It has been my experience those folks usually don't have much experience really going at it, even with moderate power, against a resisting opponent.


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Correct me it I am wrong but you chose the throat analogy. There are distinct difference in striking versus grappling training. But surely you understand there are tools like a BOB that allow a person to train strikes are full speed AND drills with resistance that allow you to practice an endless amount of scenarios. There is never only ONE way to do a strike/attack/submission right?



A training dummy is no comparison to a live training partner.



> So when you are rolling do you do a Kimura lock the exact same way Only when you and your partner are in one specific position? Of course not. But that is exactly how you are framing certain TMA training. You have to think bigger/higher than that. If a person cannot do that I suspect they are going to suck at whatever style they practice.



Grappling has the advantage that we can go full blast without significantly harming each other. Thus, I can attempt multiple entries and locks at full speed without harming my partner. The more advanced we get, the faster we can go (which ironically also ends up slowing the pace). This translates into a self defense situation because I can apply my technique pretty much the same way I do in training. If I'm constantly catching Purple and Brown belts with Kimuras for example, the untrained moron attacking me really doesn't stand much of a chance.

Striking on the other hand requires padding and restraint, and that frankly puts it at a disadvantage on multiple levels. Whenever I kick or punch someone, I have to be mindful of damage I do to them, and also the potential damage I do to myself. For example, I've known Boxers who have broken their hands in street fights, and once their hand healed, they were afraid to punch people in the face because they didn't want to injure their hands again. I've known TKD/Karate guys who have broken their foot or shin fighting someone. One buddy of mine was crippled for months after he got into a domestic altercation and ended up breaking his big and little toe kicking someone in the head. There's all sorts of hazards with striking that grapplers simply don't have to worry about.

Add to that techniques you can never fully train with like throat jabs and eye gouges, and you've just increased that disadvantage by a ton. You're simply spitting into the wind and hoping it doesn't fly back into your face.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say I train 100% all of the time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll just point out that you're the one who went to throat punches. I ran with the example you gave, since that's what you wanted to talk about. I was referring more to things like locks/breaks that don't really have good competition/rolling application, because there's too little distance between "I don't feel that" and "broken".


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> A training dummy is no comparison to a live training partner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're now into a whole other realm that seems outside the scope of where this started.


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'll just point out that you're the one who went to throat punches. I ran with the example you gave, since that's what you wanted to talk about. I was referring more to things like locks/breaks that don't really have good competition/rolling application, because there's too little distance between "I don't feel that" and "broken".



Well those were the techniques Isshin and I were talking about.

In terms of locks/breaks that don't have a good competition/rolling application, those would also be in the realm of hopes and dreams in terms of application.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Striking on the other hand requires padding and restraint, and that frankly puts it at a disadvantage on multiple levels. Whenever I kick or punch someone, I have to be mindful of damage I do to them, and also the potential damage I do to myself. For example, I've known Boxers who have broken their hands in street fights, and once their hand healed, they were afraid to punch people in the face because they didn't want to injure their hands again. I've known TKD/Karate guys who have broken their foot or shin fighting someone. One buddy of mine was crippled for months after he got into a domestic altercation and ended up breaking his big and little toe kicking someone in the head. There's all sorts of hazards with striking that grapplers simply don't have to worry about.



You have no idea what you are talking about.   This may be true for some striking arts but it is not true for all of them.  Remove the intensity  of real sparring and you remove the consequences.   Yes it is true, that we do have equipment now that will allow us to protect ourselves from injury but nothing teaches you to block a leg kick better than getting a good one so over reliance on equipment is not the answer either.  Train safely but the need to train at 100% is also important.


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about.   This may be true for some striking arts but it is not true for all of them.  Remove the intensity  of real sparring and you remove the consequences.



Then you also remove/reduce the effectiveness of sparring. 



> Yes it is true, that we do have equipment now that will allow us to protect ourselves from injury but nothing teaches you to block a leg kick better than getting a good one so over reliance on equipment is not the answer either.  Train safely but the need to train at 100% is also important.



Like I said, that is the inherent disadvantage of striking arts. You simply can't go full blast without causing significant injuries, so you have to constantly pull your attacks. Padding and protection allows you to ramp up the intensity, but it still isn't close to the real thing as getting hit with flesh and bone. Again, I can go full speed an pressure in grappling and (outside of throws) not really worry about injuring myself. If I go full speed striking without protection, I can not only seriously injure my partner, but I can also seriously injure myself. Add on to this people not really wanting to walk around with black eyes, busted lips, and bruises, and you have the general disadvantage of striking arts.

Now add something like throat striking or eye gouging to the equation; Techniques you've NEVER really used in any context beyond hitting a dummy or doing the motion in a kata. You might as well forget they exist.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Well those were the techniques Isshin and I were talking about.
> 
> In terms of locks/breaks that don't have a good competition/rolling application, those would also be in the realm of hopes and dreams in terms of application.


The locks without rolling application do have similar problems, but aren't really "hopes and dreams" things. You can practice them slowly to submission, or fast, but releasing the hold rather than finishing. The one I'm thinking about I've actually seen result in accidental breaks twice, and I know of a third instance. And the mechanics of getting to it are very similar to some techniques that can be practiced at full speed. There's one I think is called the Russian wrist snap that can be used off the same mechanics, so that's the kind of thing you do with it in sparring. With ones that don't have any good, close neighbors like that, all you can really do is make an intellectual study of it to get an understanding of what it does to the joint, then practice the movements to build some "muscle memory" (felt pattern recognition) in case the right situation shows up. There are locks I haven't practiced in decades (from back in my Judo days) that show up sometimes when I'm rolling, based on this kind of pattern recognition.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> If I go full speed striking without protection, I can not only seriously injure my partner, but I can also seriously injure myself. Add on to this people not really wanting to walk around with black eyes, busted lips, and bruises, and you have the general disadvantage of striking arts.



Seems to me you are dramatically overestimating yourself here.  Although you can injure your partner and injure yourself going 100% you are missing one key element, which is self-discipline.   Just because you could do it, doesn't mean you should.  Going 100% using every possible technique to win is not the point of the exercise.   Most people train to better themselves and push their limits.  No one trains to be injured or maimed.   I have come across people like you who 'break em unless they tap' or 'go for the joints' to win type.   They don't typically make good partners and they quickly run out of people that want to train with them because who wants to train with someone who has no self-control and sees the only point of training hard is to 'hurt' or injure their training partners ?   What happens if you get into a particularly intense roll and you miss the tap ?  

Perhaps you have found some place where you can practice 100% intensity with 100% of available techniques in a manner where you and your partners are not getting injured and maimed.   Why not tell everyone where that place is so that they can see that for themselves and see the benefits of what you are talking about ?


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2020)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Seems to me you are dramatically overestimating yourself here.  Although you can injure your partner and injure yourself going 100% you are missing one key element, which is self-discipline.   Just because you could do it, doesn't mean you should.  Going 100% using every possible technique to win is not the point of the exercise.   Most people train to better themselves and push their limits.  No one trains to be injured or maimed.



And it seems you have dramatically missed the point. My point is that since you're not going 100% when you're punching and kicking, that decreases the effectiveness of your sparring. You're not really dealing with getting punched in the face. You're not really dealing with your fists getting sliced open on someone's teeth. You're not dealing with your foot slamming into someone's elbow at full speed, etc. Sure self discipline is important, but over time that consistent pulling of your technique in order to protect your partners ends up hurting your overall effectiveness. Now, the slow, pulling punches aspect of sparring exists in Boxing and Muay Thai as well, but they also have the full blast variety of sparring where you're getting hit, hard, and no one is pulling their punches.

There's certainly room for the disciplined, play fighting, but any striking style worth its salt should also provide the full contact variety of sparring as well. If not, you're seriously hindering yourself in the long run.



> I have come across people like you who 'break em unless they tap' or 'go for the joints' to win type.   They don't typically make good partners and they quickly run out of people that want to train with them because who wants to train with someone who has no self-control and sees the only point of training hard is to 'hurt' or injure their training partners ?   What happens if you get into a particularly intense roll and you miss the tap ?



Like I said, you've dramatically missed the point. To answer your question, in the years of me practicing BJJ, the only times I snapped someone's limbs is when they spazzed out to attempt to escape an Americana, or attempted to roll through a lock, pretty much breaking their own bones in the process. I really can't think of a particular lock (outside of leg locks) where you can just slap it on and cause an instant break. Typically joint locks require you to begin to pull the limb in a certain direction, almost like a lever. If I'm going hard in a roll and achieve the Kimura lock for example, I wouldn't immediately torque the lock, I would gradually apply pressure until I get the tap. The beauty of joint locks is that fast or slow, if you have the position you're going to get the same result regardless, so there's no need to yank the lock once you have it.

Interestingly, in a self defense situation I found myself in, I applied a lock in a similar manner; Gradual pressure in order to control my assailant until help arrived.



> Perhaps you have found some place where you can practice 100% intensity with 100% of available techniques in a manner where you and your partners are not getting injured and maimed.   Why not tell everyone where that place is so that they can see that for themselves and see the benefits of what you are talking about ?



Your local Bjj school should suffice.


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## Buka (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> A training dummy is no comparison to a live training partner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a difference, though. You're a larger man, I'm a smaller man. I'm very relaxed when I roll, I'm very relaxed when I'm striking.

But when I'm rolling with a much larger person, and we start to go full blast, sometimes things rip and hurt for a significant amount of time afterwards. In striking, I don't care how full blast a much larger fighter goes. I'll ask them to take it easy. Maybe even twice. But it really doesn't matter as I know what he's going to throw before he does. I've been reading strikers for a very long time.

So, it depends.


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2020)

Buka said:


> There's a difference, though. You're a larger man, I'm a smaller man. I'm very relaxed when I roll, I'm very relaxed when I'm striking.
> 
> But when I'm rolling with a much larger person, and we start to go full blast, sometimes things rip and hurt for a significant amount of time afterwards. In striking, I don't care how full blast a much larger fighter goes. I'll ask them to take it easy. Maybe even twice. But it really doesn't matter as I know what he's going to throw before he does. I've been reading strikers for a very long time.
> 
> So, it depends.



That is a fair point. When I roll with women and smaller men, that is definitely something I have to take into consideration given my size. I will say that level of intensity is something that needs to be agreed upon by both parties. I've had ex-Wrestlers and Football players ask me to go slow, while I had women I outweigh by over 100lbs ask me to go all in.


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## dvcochran (Nov 12, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> A training dummy is no comparison to a live training partner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea, you just went from being silly and biased to plain stupid.  Sorry for that but it is what it is. 
Thinking there is only one way to train, fight, or defend yourself is exactly what got some TMA’s a bad rap. Non-sensible bs.


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## Hanzou (Nov 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yea, you just went from being silly and biased to plain stupid.  Sorry for that but it is what it is.
> Thinking there is only one way to train, fight, or defend yourself is exactly what got some TMA’s a bad rap. Non-sensible bs.



Where did I say that there was only one way to train, fight, or defend yourself?


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## dvcochran (Nov 13, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that there was only one way to train, fight, or defend yourself?


Your posts are laced with inference. You are a BJJ guy you and keep the same theme going as most BJJ'ers, that they are superior in every fighting/self defense category. A pretty narrow point of view. Fighters, grapple, punch, block, kick, and more. That is a pretty wide set of tools so maybe your roll only style does have some gaps? And you self defense analogies against TMA training are just, well hilarious. I have not grappled heavily since college but have used my self defense training many, many times as a LEO so, that dog does not hunt.


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## Hanzou (Nov 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Your posts are laced with inference. You are a BJJ guy you and keep the same theme going as most BJJ'ers, that they are superior in every fighting/self defense category.



If you honestly think that's what I'm saying in my posts, then you simply haven't been paying attention. In this particular case I use BJJ as my main counter example because that's the art in which I have the most experience outside of Karate. However, I don't believe that BJJ is superior in every fighting/self defense category, and if anyone asks me I would  happily tell them to have BJJ as their base art and cross train in a dedicated striking art like Muay Thai or standard Boxing.



> A pretty narrow point of view. Fighters, grapple, punch, block, kick, and more. That is a pretty wide set of tools so maybe your roll only style does have some gaps? And you self defense analogies against TMA training are just, well hilarious. I have not grappled heavily since college but have used my self defense training many, many times as a LEO so, that dog does not hunt.



Well to be fair, my background in BJJ is from Relson Gracie JJ which is heavily self defense based. I also have a black belt in karate, so yes, I know how to deal with blocks, kicks, punches, and more. Frankly, I felt that BJJ dealt with counter striking far better than Karate did, and if I could do it all over again, I would have wrestled in high school and spent my years in Karate doing Boxing or MT instead, picking up BJJ in pretty much the same time frame that I did.

Anyway, I know that not everyone who trains in BJJ has my background, which is why I recommend cross training in a striking art. Would I recommend traditional Karate? Not if Muay Thai or Boxing is available. If Karate is all you have, then you do what you gotta do.


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