# bujinkan for combat ??



## Ronnin (Oct 2, 2008)

Now I'm not trying to piss anyone off here so calm down. I was on you tube and just came across this, thought I'd share and see what you guys (and gals) l think. I'm also a Bujinkan member but I do believe there are some good points here that are being made. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVaG9BL0hw&feature=related


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## kaizasosei (Oct 2, 2008)

i have a knife in my pocket all the time.  i call it bujin.  i also know a shitload of cheap moves and can scare the living daylights out of most anyone if i chose to.  but yes, there are some truths everywhere-

j


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## Ronnin (Oct 2, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> i have a knife in my pocket all the time.  i call it bujinkan.  i also know a shitload of cheap moves and can scare the living daylights out of most anyone if i chose to.  but yes, there are some truths everywhere-
> 
> j



Not really sure what that means.........but okay.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 2, 2008)

sorry for sounding sortof psycho but, i've seen some of those coolaid clips already....

i was just trying to cut to the chase and share my opinion that combat at its most extreme is something mortally dangerous and fundementally nasty.  
  bujinkan trains in a host of really dangerous weapons- 

i would even include firearms-

in essence, really lethal ****.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 2, 2008)

*Yawn*  Posted HERE and discussed to death.

Next.


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## Ronnin (Oct 2, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> *Yawn*  Posted HERE and discussed to death.
> 
> Next.


so what if it's been discussed, how about letting some new people share their opinion's.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 2, 2008)

i'm sure there are plenty of really real and tough bujinkan members.  i believe in the principles, but i do agree that sparing is important.

i've taken a break from bujinkan training for mma my own reasons, but that doesnt mean i dont agree with the concept that bbt is combat oriented.

i can see both sides..

best is to keep being objective as well as keep an open mind.


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## shesulsa (Oct 2, 2008)

I'd say it's damn easy and ... something else ... to assemble a few clips of either beginners or untalented people and paint an entire system with that brush.  It's also easy and ... something else ... to throw up a few good clips of quality pugilism and call it a martial art because someone's getting their *** kicked.

What I've seen (and granted, I've seen little) of booj stuff, I'd want the guys I've seen on MY side.

Have fun beating a dead horse.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Oct 2, 2008)

I have seen this video before.

Watching someone learn how to perform a technique is no way to judge if it is effective or not because you are not watching the end product.
I have seen throws used in Budo Taijutsu that are similar to Judo throws,joint locks similar to Judo as well. I imagine if the arts were created in a edo period or earlier battle era maybe there is some truth to it being a combat art.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 2, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> so what if it's been discussed, how about letting some new people share their opinion's.



How 'bout you do it in the existing thread? This ******** doesn't merit 2.


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## ElfTengu (Oct 3, 2008)

It is simple.

You train in Bujinkan to be good at Bujinkan.

You train in Self Defence to be good at Self Defence.

You train in Combat to be good at Combat.

Bujinkan per se, is not Self Defence or Combat, and as has been said, it will not make a 'fighter' out of anyone who does not already have the mindset and a bit of experience to be one.

But you can train to get your Self Defence in top notch condition, and you can train to be safer on the streets of Rio or Kabul, or in law enforcement etc, if you integrate Bujinkan into your self defence and combat training.

Lets face it, if you want to send 100 young men to war, do you send them to a local Bujinka dojo or an army camp? If you want to send 100 law enforcement officers out on the streets do you send them to a dojo or for police training? And if you want your sister to be safe at University but she only wants to train in condensed self defence strategies for a couple of months and not spend years perfecting Kihon Happo and Gyokko Ryu kata, do you really send her to what generally constitutes a Bujinkan dojo?

Lots of people use Bujinkan for combat, law enforcement, self defence, bodyguarding, even sports martial arts in some cases, but the Bujinkan is only an aspect of what they do, even if it is the underlying core.

Look at youtube, look at all the black belts, do you really think they are all real mean tough streetfighters? Look at their students, doing floppy complacent, compliant training with friends they can trust, a university hobby, no different to football (and probably less use in a tight spot).

The Bujinkan is a fantastic thing. But if you want to use it for combat and real fighting, you need to train as though you are going to do so, or you will be in a real state of shock and a lot of pain very quickly when you find yourself in a situation where you need to protect yourself and others from harm.

We are told to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing, but we should be far more concerned about sheep in wolves clothing, and should not become such a thing ourselves.


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## stephen (Oct 3, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> You train in Bujinkan to be good at Bujinkan.




I don't. 

Being 'good at Bujinkan' isn't really anything in it's own right; I train in it because it's a 'force multiplier' in many aspects of my life. 

As for the 'fighter' stuff: If you mean that it won't make someone 'aggressive' - that's probably true. If you mean that someone won't be able to defend themselves - then I wouldn't agree. 

P.S. Are you going to be able to come to Jim Morganelli's seminar in November in London?


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## ElfTengu (Oct 3, 2008)

stephen said:


> I don't.
> 
> Being 'good at Bujinkan' isn't really anything in it's own right; I train in it because it's a 'force multiplier' in many aspects of my life.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry Stephen, my missus is still heavily pregnant and all that so I am going to miss a lot for a while. I'm also devastated to be missing the Pedro gig this weekend as my teacher rates him extremely highly but there you go.

I see where you are coming from but although aggression is part of what I am saying, it's not everything. I think the Bujinkan is weak on the percentage of people who can use it to actually fight with, compared with practitioners of other arts. Some of those other arts I consider to be vastly inferior in content and principle and some are no more than sports, but they do do the business. But don't listen to me. Look at what is out there in martial arts, look at the nasty people who bash people up on a weekly basis in our rough estates and town centres, and look at your students or classmates, are they really the mustard?

I'm afraid being good at Bujinkan really doesn't equate with being good at fighting. It should do but only if the reality of bloody brutal violence is constantly borne in mind during training and not just country dancing in black karategi.

Go to any seminar, any typical class, and come back and tell me that in your heart of hearts the people there were more effective combatants there than in a typical MMA gym, kickboxing club, judo club, Krav Maga class, BJJ barra.

Give me a choice of someone to have a real fight with, out of all the martial artists out there, and I have to say that a fellow Bujinkanner would be high on my list, but I would run a mile from the average sports martial artist (and probably not fast enough as they tend to be 90% fitter than us as well).


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## Cryozombie (Oct 3, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> Go to any seminar, any typical class, and come back and tell me that in your heart of hearts the people there were more effective combatants there than in a typical MMA gym, kickboxing club, judo club, Krav Maga class, BJJ barra.



Here we go again...

MMA R0XX0RS BUJINKAN is TEH SUCK


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## Kreth (Oct 3, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> I'm afraid being good at Bujinkan really doesn't equate with being good at fighting. It should do but only if the reality of bloody brutal violence is constantly borne in mind during training and not just country dancing in black karategi.


Good point. I've trained with many people over the years at seminars, and some were shocked if you made even the slightest contact with a punch. A certain now-defunct NYC dojo was notorious for this, IMO.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (Oct 3, 2008)

Basically I believe in my opinion that it boils down to the Artist not the Art. All martial arts are good as long as the practioner and the teacher train in the proper manner and for modern day use. You have to have a fighting spirit, strong will and actually believe in what you are fighting for. Everything else is just training.


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## Archangel M (Oct 3, 2008)

I think the issue on this thread is the marketing of "Bujinkan is a COMBAT ART". Implying that its more relavent for "combat" than other arts. 

Is it?


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## allenjp (Oct 3, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I have seen this video before.
> 
> Watching someone learn how to perform a technique is no way to judge if it is effective or not because you are not watching the end product.
> I have seen throws used in Budo Taijutsu that are similar to Judo throws,joint locks similar to Judo as well. I imagine if the arts were created in a edo period or earlier battle era maybe there is some truth to it being a combat art.


 
The reason you see similarities in techniques between these arts is because Judo was created by mixing "the best" techniques from the numerous Jujutsu ryuha. In fact, Jigoro Kano had many conferences with the grandmasters of different Jujutsu schools, including...yep you guessed it, the grandmaster of kukishin ryu at the time, Toshitsugu Takamatsu (hatsumi's teacher). Now Hatsumi is grandmaster of Kukishin ryu (unless you ask Shoto Tanemura). What Kano was actually diong was removing some of the more lethal or "combat" aspects of Jujutsu to develop a more sport type art to preserve Jujutsu in the anti military society that Japan had become at that time.
Hatsumi also had extensive training in Judo as a youth.

To me, the question has never been whether or not the Bujinkan arts were combat arts, they came from the Samurai and Ninja, who were the combatants of Japan for a very long time. The only question is if they are still relevant and effective today. I believe they are. In fact it is said that most of the fundamentals of BJJ came from Fusen Ryu Jujutsu, because at the time that Maeda brought Judo (called Kano's Jujutsu at that time) to Brazil, Kano's school had just suffered it's first defeat to the ground techniques of the Fusen Ryu in a competition, and had decided to incorporate the techniques into Judo. I think we can all admit that BJJ is certainly relevant and effective in today's world, and it's roots share somewhat of a common history with the Bujinkan.

As for the videos, anyone can take anything out of context and portray it in any way they want-just ask Michael Moore. A few isolated video clips don't prove that the author's point is true.


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## allenjp (Oct 3, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> I think the issue on this thread is the marketing of "Bujinkan is a COMBAT ART". Implying that its more relavent for "combat" than other arts.
> 
> Is it?


 
Actually I think that this marketing is more trying to establish that just because you don't see much ninjutsu in the UFC, doesn't mean it isn't effective. Their point is that sport arts have rules which limit their combat effectiveness. The Bujinkan has no rules, and is not designed for the ring. It was designed by people who only fought when death was on the line.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 3, 2008)

many great things said.  I'm starting to think i shouldn't say much more because i feel i am not able to be objective enough.

the one that follows the fool is more foolish than the fool.

however, my opinion is set, i do think that bujinkan techniques and style have some of the greatest potential amongst martial arts.  it depends on the fighter to make the most of all resources and knowledge available.


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## allenjp (Oct 3, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> the one that follows the fool is more foolish than the fool.


 
Dude, are you making fun of my signature line??? That is a DEFINITE party foul.


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## shesulsa (Oct 3, 2008)

Heh. One of my kids just pointed out to me that a traditional martial art is like a 10 course meal ... drawn out, carefully planned and timed, designed for full exploration and appreciation of each course; whereas UFC-style fighting is fast food ... like a macho combo burrito.

Just passing along the observation of a kid in TMA for 11 years. :asian:


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## kaizasosei (Oct 3, 2008)

Not at all!  Didn't mean for any misunderstandings...

it's just that your line spoke to me in a deep sortof way...

i meant that i was being the fool.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 3, 2008)

Not at all!  Didn't mean for any misunderstandings...

it's just that your line spoke to me in a deep sortof way...

i meant that i was being the fool for following or getting worked up by foolishness


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## Archangel M (Oct 3, 2008)

Good points being made. 

I believe (take that as you will) that if I were training people to go into combat (military etc) that I would want to know that it worked, and just because its being claimed that this stuff worked in ancient Japan wouldnt cut it. While MMA/boxing etc isnt "proof" that it works in "combat", they are far closer to the real thing than a lot of the canned exchanges practiced in some styles. ANY martial art can be a good combat art if trained in a realistic manner. 

Thing is, not everybody necessarily wants or needs a martial art for "combat" or wants to spar, get blodied up and ground n' pounded and thats A-OK, just dont pump these people up into believing that they are "warriors" or combat ready.


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## jarrod (Oct 4, 2008)

lots of good points here, & generally respectful as well.  a couple of my thoughts:

1) "it is the artist not the art"--this is true, any art may have capable fighters/combatants, BUT this doesn't mean that the techniques, principles, & teaching methods of different arts shouldn't be compared & up for discussion.  

personally, i don't believe you can call your art a combat art or even a self-defense art if you do not train under simulated combat stress, i.e., sparring &/or competing.  i think it's terrific that historical arts are preserved, & they may aid in combat, but they are first & foremost historical.  

2) this is not to say that all sparring & competition arts or approaches are geared towards combat either.  there is a bit misconception that since styles used in mma work in a cage, they work in all other scenarios as well.  this is not true, however mma training & competition can teach a martial artist a lot about will, conflict, determination, etc.  combat & self-defense are not choreographed.  to train for it soley with choreography is a questionable approach for any style.

jf


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## stephen (Oct 4, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Good points being made.
> 
> I believe (take that as you will) that if I were training people to go into combat (military etc) that I would want to know that it worked, and just because its being claimed that this stuff worked in ancient Japan wouldnt cut it. While MMA/boxing etc isnt "proof" that it works in "combat", they are far closer to the real thing than a lot of the canned exchanges practiced in some styles. ANY martial art can be a good combat art if trained in a realistic manner.
> 
> Thing is, not everybody necessarily wants or needs a martial art for "combat" or wants to spar, get blodied up and ground n' pounded and thats A-OK, just dont pump these people up into believing that they are "warriors" or combat ready.




'Combat' and 'War' are not the same things. This is my main issue with these sorts of discussions.


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## jks9199 (Oct 4, 2008)

jarrod said:


> lots of good points here, & generally respectful as well.  a couple of my thoughts:
> 
> 1) "it is the artist not the art"--this is true, any art may have capable fighters/combatants, BUT this doesn't mean that the techniques, principles, & teaching methods of different arts shouldn't be compared & up for discussion.
> 
> ...



The advantage that MMA, judo randori, boxing, and wrestling have over the ways that many martial arts are practiced AS PREPARATION FOR COMBAT is that they regularly involve training with resisting opponents and receiving the shock of actual contact/force.


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## Nolerama (Oct 4, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Good point. I've trained with many people over the years at seminars, and some were shocked if you made even the slightest contact with a punch. A certain now-defunct NYC dojo was notorious for this, IMO.



This is a little off topic, but I think that getting hit in the face is a concept that lots of MAists don't ever get: it' a reality. It's sad, because I'd rather spend time in an altercation fighting, rather than standing there awestruck that I got hit in the face...

But back to the topic, I've seen that vid before, but I think it's oddly swayed towards the author's opinion. Aren't there Bujinkan schools out there that spar? I'm sure there are, as well as Bujinkan schools that train for modern weaponry.


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## Ronnin (Oct 6, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> It is simple.
> 
> You train in Bujinkan to be good at Bujinkan.
> 
> ...


I could not agree with you more. VERY well put !!!!!


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## ElfTengu (Oct 6, 2008)

Firstly, I am not anti Bujinkan. As a Bujinkan yudansha that just wouldn't make sense.

The points about it being down to the individual, or the 'artist' rather than the 'art', and everything about the 'potential' of Bujinkan material is absoloutely right, but it means nothing as worded opinion on an internet forum.

The army doesn't leave so much to chance when it trains its soldiers. Barring making them dodge real bullets, it makes pretty damn sure they are ready for combat before sending them into combat. It could obviously do more, but it still does a lot more to prepare it's people for stressful situations than we do in 99% of our taijutsu dojo.

Some other arts, the ones I mentioned in an earlier post, take a LOT more responsibilty for the shaping of each individual student into an exponent who can not only go through the moves and understand the principles and generally look pretty good when training with fellow student in the same art, but who is also psycholocially prepared for real violence by being exposed to it, i.e. they get smacked in the head (albeit with gloves), slammed to the ground hard, and are far more often in a position where they don't know what kind of attack is coming. It's not much like many real fights, despite what they say, but it's better than kata and endless 'careful' training against 'known' attacks. Look around you next time you are training. Most people aren't even doing it right when they know exactly what the attack is going to be. Make them respond spontaneously to an unscripted attack and they perhaps aren't going to do all that well, especially if the unscripted attack doesn't stop at a defined point but keeps coming and coming and coming (like when someone is trying to hurt you for real).

And like it or not folks, we don't do enough to prepare the individual. I'm sure some of you do, and are entitled to be indignant, but I believe we all need to up our game a bit to maintain the integrity of our art against all that shameful representation of it on youtube.

Because the people in most of those clips deserve every bit of ridicule they get. Simple as.


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## AbsZero (Oct 7, 2008)

I agree with you completely. Problem is that with quantity you loose quality. And Bujinkan is very "quantitative". Many shidoshis, shihans, every one of them with diferent philosophy... And like one great sensei said - Martial-arts aren't supposed to be thought to large number of people. They can, but only few will obtain real knowlege. That means that real martial-artist need to search and gain knowlege non-stop, in every moment, and that's hard, it takes great deal of devotion... Maybe that's the reason why we have lager number of unprepared budokas for real situations in Bujinkan...


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## ElfTengu (Oct 7, 2008)

AbsZero said:


> I agree with you completely. Problem is that with quantity you loose quality. And Bujinkan is very "quantitative". Many shidoshis, shihans, every one of them with diferent philosophy... And like one great sensei said - Martial-arts aren't supposed to be thought to large number of people. They can, but only few will obtain real knowlege. That means that real martial-artist need to search and gain knowlege non-stop, in every moment, and that's hard, it takes great deal of devotion... Maybe that's the reason why we have lager number of unprepared budokas for real situations in Bujinkan...


 
Good points, but we really shouldn't make excuses. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is getting bigger and bigger without any sign of the same quality control problems. One day it may be bigger than the Bujinkan or X-kan community as a whole, in fact I would like to know the current figures.

I know taijutsu can't really be objectively judged without us killing and maiming large numbers of people ninja-stylee, but I am of the school of thought that we should still be willing to train with people on their terms and not do too badly, I mean we have throws and takedowns so we should be able to do randori with Judoka and other grapplers, and we should be willing to trade a few punches and kicks with strikers (pads on of course) if only to see what potential 'opponents' are capable of and to make sure we have an 'answer'.

It certainly beats getting fat and going up a gi size every year, being out of condition, only training slowly against compliant training partners and known attacks, and making all sorts of excuses and claims of combat effectiveness.

I don't expect any of us to come out of an exchange with Chuck Lidell in fine health, but we should be able to hold our own against other 'hobby martial artists' and our black belts should aspire to the same quality in our own art as others do in theirs.


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## AbsZero (Oct 7, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> Good points, but we really shouldn't make excuses. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is getting bigger and bigger without any sign of the same quality control problems. One day it may be bigger than the Bujinkan or X-kan community as a whole, in fact I would like to know the current figures.



 I couldn't agree more. Off course, there are no excuses.



ElfTengu said:


> I mean we have throws and takedowns so we should be able to do randori with Judoka and other grapplers, and we should be willing to trade a few punches and kicks with strikers (pads on of course) if only to see what potential 'opponents' are capable of and to make sure we have an 'answer'.



The exactly same thing my sensei and I have in mind. We did some martial contact sports before ninjutsu, we have a lot of friends in those sports, and we see no reason why we shouldn't work with them in that fashion. I mean, we have much more takedowns and throws then any other sport, much more punches, we can punch like systema guys and boxers in the same time (at least we should be able to). But, how much is that worth if we only know that all those things exist in ninjutsu and do not train and practise all those things? Very little...   



ElfTengu said:


> It certainly beats getting fat and going up a gi size every year, being out of condition, only training slowly against compliant training partners and known attacks, and making all sorts of excuses and claims of combat effectiveness.



LOL, good point... 



ElfTengu said:


> I don't expect any of us to come out of an exchange with Chuck Lidell in fine health, but we should be able to hold our own against other 'hobby martial artists' and our black belts should aspire to the same quality in our own art as others do in theirs.



Agree...


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## ElfTengu (Oct 7, 2008)

Of course putting it into practice is another thing altogether and I'm as guilty as most, which is why you don't see me posting on youtube, and there are very very few stills of me in action even!:uhyeah:

I'm trying to go down a gi size as we speak, and like you, I am planning some extra curricular training with a fellow practitioner. We both used to be in the BBD, in fact he was my instructor in those days, and whilst we appreciate the authenticity of having moved over to the mainstream Bujinkan, we do miss the sparring and fitness aspects of training that Brian McCarthy used to insist upon.

So I suppose it is time to stop talking and get training!:angel:


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## jarrod (Oct 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> The advantage that MMA, judo randori, boxing, and wrestling have over the ways that many martial arts are practiced AS PREPARATION FOR COMBAT is that they regularly involve training with resisting opponents and receiving the shock of actual contact/force.


 
i agree.  i do disagree with the spirit of the quote you inserted, however.  sparring & competition are clearly not combat or self-defense, but they are as close as you can get without regularly hospitalizing yourself.

jf


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## jks9199 (Oct 7, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i agree.  i do disagree with the spirit of the quote you inserted, however.  sparring & competition are clearly not combat or self-defense, but they are as close as you can get without regularly hospitalizing yourself.
> 
> jf


It wasn't meant to be inserted as a quote; it was meant to be a break, because it was my comment.  I apologize for any confusion on that count...

But, having been in real fights, as well as countless sparring matches -- it's not the same.  Unless you're going to send your training partners to the hospital (or go yourself).

Sparring is but ONE means of practicing the learned techniques against an opponent.  There are many others -- and all play a role.


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## stephen (Oct 7, 2008)

AbsZero said:


> I agree with you completely. Problem is that with quantity you loose quality.



This is only true if everyone has equal ability/interest in 'getting good'. Otherwise quantity leads to 'absolute' quality.

I believe that the 'quality' of the Bujinkan is defined by MAX(members) not AVG(members). Or maybe we can split the different and settle on the average of the best.

For myself I define the quality based only on my teachers, after all, really, they _are_ *my* Bujinkan. Random people on youtube are not teaching me to stay safe.


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## jarrod (Oct 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> It wasn't meant to be inserted as a quote; it was meant to be a break, because it was my comment. I apologize for any confusion on that count...
> 
> But, having been in real fights, as well as countless sparring matches -- it's not the same. Unless you're going to send your training partners to the hospital (or go yourself).
> 
> Sparring is but ONE means of practicing the learned techniques against an opponent. There are many others -- and all play a role.


 
i think we're agreeing here.  i know that fighting & sparring are different, but sparring is as close as you can safely come to fighting.  

jf


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## jks9199 (Oct 7, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i think we're agreeing here.  i know that fighting & sparring are different, but sparring is as close as you can safely come to fighting.
> 
> jf


No, it's not.  It's as close as you can come to ONE aspect of fighting.  This is vearing way off topic; I'll be beginning a new thread in an appropriate area shortly, should anyone care to continue the "sparring as an approximation of fighting" discussion.


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## ElfTengu (Oct 8, 2008)

I can see both your points of view here. Yes sparring is only one aspect of training in preparation for a real fight as JF has said, but I also agree with Jarrod in that of those aspects, it is probably the closest, because of the elements of the unknown, resistance, getting hit, and being thrown in ways that you are not expecting as well as the psychological processes that make you aware that failure to act appropriately will result in pain, and the Kolb cycle of learning comes into play. All of these rely on you responding appropriately without conscious thought, including reacting to being hit, moving to evade or close distance, and applying the correct ukemi whatever the takedown.

But you will only respond correctly if you have done all the drills and background work because otherwise sparring can be like jumping from an aeroplane and only finding out halfway down that a parachute might have been a good idea.

The biggest danger of sparring is that it opens up a part of the brain that likes fighting, and can cause an imbalance in the 'flight or fight' safeguards that every human being inherently has. The adrenaline rush, the general manliness of it all, and the fact that winning is great but being a good loser is also deemed a positive thing. The main mistake that many taijutsu people make when sparring is to thrown all their taijutsu out of the window and start mimicking kickboxers and MMA fighters, bobbing, weaving and jabbing in ways that are not taijutsu. The other thing is that we don't do much in the way of offensive technique, although everything that we do defensively can also be applied OFFfensively, we just don't train like that generally.

Finally, if someone comes into your ninjutsu dojo and wants to 'roll' in what is likely to be a fairly serious altercation, just put on your shuko and say "Sure"!


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## Cryozombie (Oct 8, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> Finally, if someone comes into your ninjutsu dojo and wants to 'roll' in what is likely to be a fairly serious altercation, just put on your shuko and say "Sure"!


 
And, here is the essence of why I think all these arguments of "Art X is better prepared for real fighting than art Y" and why these kinds of discussions piss me off.  

Ok, sure, your typical MMA school tends to do more work on a "resisting opponent" right from the get-go, without worrying too much about building a skill set FIRST... they do it simultaiously.  No problems with that, it works for their art.  HOWEVER... by the same token, I personally have never seen any MMA schools where the average student isnt training in a pair of shorts (often the skin tight, I dunno, Ill call em wrestling shorts) and a tank top... So what happens when they roll on the street and are all prepped to take down that guy and he uses their jacket to choke them out... somthing they don't/rarely train for because it was banned from the rules of UFC because it was effective and too easy to do... oops.  And I don't see too many judo guys practicing getting punched either... most of what I have seen is all Kumi Uchi type techniques, so yeah... they are used to fast movements and hard throws, but can they REALLY take a hit that much better?  

There are things we train to do in our arts (whatever arts we are talking about) that make them work for us or not.  Are there bad schools/bad teachers in the Buj?  Sure.  Are there also bad ones in... well, any art? Yup.  

The problem as I see it, and who the hell knows I could be way off base here, is that many of these competitive arts, because they are competitive, stress the competitive aspects from a very early point in their training, whereas many Buj schools do not. (And perhaps this is also true of Genbukan, Jinekan, etc, I dont know)  So then you see SLOW Videos of guys working Kata (which are NOT FREAKING COMBAT TECHNIQUES, THEY ARE KATA!) to get the moves down, or to teach the kata, or demo a Kata, and guys who are used to not doing "techniques" but rather just used to scrapping see that stuff, and go "Durrr, that wouldnt work in a fight".  Yeah? Ya think?  No ****.  Its a KATA. Of course it wouldn't!  

Where you run into trouble... is when you get these guys who DON'T REALIZE that, and think KATA is a COMBAT TECHNIQUE and never move past the point of learning the kata, and never learn to break out the mechanics and movement Ideas the kata are actually designed to teach.

But then again, I'm only a 1st Kyu, so I could be wayyy off base here... its all just my opinion.


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## jarrod (Oct 8, 2008)

not arguing with you here, but could you tell me what the purpose of kata is if it's not to instill combat techniques?

i'm far from a kata technician, so i'm just asking.

jf


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## ElfTengu (Oct 8, 2008)

Cryozombie said:


> And, here is the essence of why I think all these arguments of "Art X is better prepared for real fighting than art Y" and why these kinds of discussions piss me off.


 
Perhaps I should use smileys more, the shuko thing was a joke, or tongue in cheek at least.

But joking aside, it is in my humble opinion that it is the 'ninjutsu' parts of the Bujinkan which are our best chance against superior opposition. You will never get any of our shihan volunteering to show off their muto dori skills against a Japanese kenjutsu or iai master, but add metsubishi, acid, shuriken and the like into the mix and the odds don't seem as far fetched. Peace through superior firepower, never take a knife to a gun fight, the end justifies the means etc etc.

I never said art x was better than art y, and you won't always have something pointy to hand which which to stab repeatedly to the kidneys when a grappler takes you to the ground. You may have to rely on your unarmed skills and they had better be top notch. I agree that modern MMA arts do not sufficiently take into consideration the addition of factors such as weapons and multiple attackers, but even though we taijutsu practitioners do bear these things in mind as part of our normal training, our training methodologies are inferior due to a lack of stress conditions. This leads to the very real possibility that even though they don't train for anywhere near the variety of conditions in which a real attack might take place, an MMAist might do better because of their training methods in terms of rough and tumble.

And don't bring rank into it. There are fantastic green belts and terrible black belts in this world, and unfortunately the latter seem to exist in vast numbers and this is how this thread came into being. Opinion is opinion, and this is not the Shidoshikai, it is a public forum and everyone's points of view are valid.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 8, 2008)

IMO, it is to teach the mechanics of and understanding of technique. 

I FEEL that If you look at a kata, and say "well, that wont work because an opponent wont just leave his arm hanging out there like that" (a common reason the bujinkan is seen as "fake" and/or useless) then you (the person, not YOU specifically) missedthe point of the kata.   The kata wasn't to say "Do A, then B, then C, and Voila! You win!" but rather to instill the knowlage that say Doing A works because Blah, B works When, and C can be used IF... kinda thing... the kata strings the pieces together, but in a fight you might use A, C, C, and A again... and never touch part "B" Or you may do B because thats what gets handed to you and it finishes the fight altogether and thats it.  

I dunno if I am explaining that well.  I think about it, in extrasimplistic terms as say a Taekwondo Kata.  No Taekwondo student, in a fight is going to Block Up, Block Down, Reverse Punch, Turn Left, Reverse Punch, Turn Right, Reverse Punch, face Front, Block Up, Block Down, bow.  But Doing the Kata is going to help teach him To do the individual techniques of  Block Up, Block Down, and Reverse Punch...


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## Cryozombie (Oct 8, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> Perhaps I should use smileys more, the shuko thing was a joke, or tongue in cheek at least.
> 
> But joking aside, it is in my humble opinion that it is the 'ninjutsu' parts of the Bujinkan which are our best chance against superior opposition. You will never get any of our shihan volunteering to show off their muto dori skills against a Japanese kenjutsu or iai master, but add metsubishi, acid, shuriken and the like into the mix and the odds don't seem as far fetched. Peace through superior firepower, never take a knife to a gun fight, the end justifies the means etc etc.


 
Nah man, I GET that, which is why I said what I said... it proves the point that certain elements of each art are best suited to what they do, which is why I dont think any of them are "more combat efficient"... because combat is a fluid thing that will rarley be the same from encounter to encounter... so really, I was AGREEING with you.


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## ElfTengu (Oct 8, 2008)

jarrod said:


> not arguing with you here, but could you tell me what the purpose of kata is if it's not to instill combat techniques?
> 
> i'm far from a kata technician, so i'm just asking.
> 
> jf


 
I can't speak for other arts, but in the Bujinkan, kata have different purposes at different levels.

The novice mimics what he sees, or what he thinks he sees, and guided by a teacher he eventually comes to fit those movements with his natural physiology (and hopefully enhances his physiology along the way).

The student starts to extract principles from the kata, learning variations and experiencing different ways in which different things can be used, but still works on perfecting (something which will never actually be achieved) the basic kata as laid down by Soke, because if you don't have all the component parts and principles pretty much nailed, you can't go onto henka (variations) or what karateka call bunkai (application).

At higher levels the practitioner does the same but better, and looks to his peers and superiors for further insights. 

People generally accept that they will never ever ever use the kata technique in the way that they do in the kata, because a real attack will never come like it does in kata, and a clear start and end to the proceedings is often never discernible, unlike a kata.

To summise I would say that it is not combat techniques which are instilled per se, but bits of techniques, principles and possibilities. In a real fight the taijutsu technician is all about evade evade evade until an opportunity presents itself to apply something like a technique or combination of techniques. The opportunity may come quickly but it may not. He does not seek a quick one-punch end to the proceedings because this approach leaves too many openings and is difficult to back out of once committed, but moves in such a way as to apply the nastiness only at the moments when it is safe to do so.


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## stephen (Oct 8, 2008)

jarrod said:


> not arguing with you here, but could you tell me what the purpose of kata is if it's not to instill combat techniques?
> 
> i'm far from a kata technician, so i'm just asking.
> 
> jf




*I* see kata as _examples_ of movement. No more or less special than any other example that coulld have been written down. 

I see them sorta like you might see certain problems in a math textbook, and the teacher's edition may have certain answers and ways of deriving those answers. 

The important part is being able to solve the problem, or should I say, the important part is being able to solve a similiar, but currently unknown, problem in the future. 

Being presented the kata shows you that indeed problems like _that_ can be solved with the correct application of concepts offered in the course and that you should learn and be able to apply the concepts behind it in order to be able to solve the problem come test time.

There are not many times in school where a teacher will mark down 2+3=5 because you wrote 3+2=5. 

The big question is: okay, so how do you _know_ your learning the concepts and can apply it? That's what teachers are for. 

Later, when maybe your teacher isn't always around (but you still need one somewhere) you can check your understanding by being able to apply the concepts to unseen problems, creatively generate solutions to problems never before covered, and also, I tend to think, be able to create drills and excercises that isolate those concepts.


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## ElfTengu (Oct 8, 2008)

Well put Stephen, apart from using Maths as an example.

(only because I hate maths).

I would prefer using music as an analogy, you learn to read music, to play an instrument, to learn to play other instruments better because you already knew how to play one and read music, and you learn to perform in duets and trios and then on the day you go into a room and jam with people you have never met you instinctively do exactly what you need to do to harmonise with what the other musicians are doing, even though you had no idea what that was going to be before you walked into the room.


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## Ronnin (Oct 8, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> Good points, but we really shouldn't make excuses. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is getting bigger and bigger without any sign of the same quality control problems. One day it may be bigger than the Bujinkan or X-kan community as a whole, in fact I would like to know the current figures.
> .


THe reason for BJJ's ability is not the art itself, but the method of training. These guys go to thier gym everyday, or however often, and train in thier techniques as we do, BUT then they go to thier "ring, or mat, whichever they have in thier gym, and FIGHT. That's the kee. They fight everyday. So when they get to the street and there's a problem, they're very well prepared. I think the X-Kan should begin to utilize this more. This method is in every type of realistic form of combat training ie; military wether it's hand to hand or weapons training. Of course we're not going to shoot with real rounds, but we put VERY high velocity paint rounds in which hurt like hell, not like the crap *** round ones, so therefor you're scared to get hit. The X-kan stops at the techniqes, then they talk about how to use it real.


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## Archangel M (Oct 8, 2008)

Knowing what its like to really take a punch..or deliver a real punch on another human is a huge advantage in a fight. Many martial artists have never really dealt with either.


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## Ronnin (Oct 8, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> Knowing what its like to really take a punch..or deliver a real punch on another human is a huge advantage in a fight. Many martial artists have never really dealt with either.


Exactly!
Once you have a REAL punch thrown at you, and you bust out in Ichimonji, you'll realize "crap, I went to deep in my kamae, and now I'm out of position to do anything, but it always works in training".


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## Kreth (Oct 8, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> The X-kan stops at the techniqes, then they talk about how to use it real.


You misspelled "In the dojos I've been to..."


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## Ronnin (Oct 8, 2008)

Kreth said:


> You misspelled "In the dojos I've been to..."


hahaha   I know my bad, I was gonna put "MOST dojo's dont train in this manner", I know some do, but so few compared to the majority. That's why I left it out. I know of 1 dojo that's practices a type of Randori or free fighting, and I'm in LA, but even that is still quite controlled.


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## ElfTengu (Oct 9, 2008)

Kreth said:


> You misspelled "In the dojos I've been to..."


 
I think most of us would have to admit he is right though, and sufficient numbers of dojo do train like that, enough to warrant generalisation even.

I've been to enough dojos and seminars over the years to know that the percentages are pretty much the same as those on youtube in terms of lameness versus realistic training methodologies.

But then perhaps we shouldn't put so much on the dojo, I mean, there are only so many hours of dojo time in a week, most dojo only have one 2 hour session a week and the 'syllabus' is so vast there just isn't time to learn/teach everything and fit in some randori as well.

If your dojo is one of these, make the effort to fit in some more gung ho training with fellow students in between classes.

I am looking forward to the day I can start a shibu, because, although I am in no real hurry to teach or instruct, it would be good to have a group of people to practice on/with and be able to decide what we are going to work on so I can address my weaknesses. Mind you, I am going to be the father of twins in the next few weeks so I am hoping to cleverly manipulate my offspring into wanting to learn the art!


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## stephen (Oct 9, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> the 'syllabus' is so vast there just isn't time to learn/teach everything and fit in some randori as well.



What's a sly-a-busss? Never seen one....None in my dojo....

I tend to start class with, 'What do you guys want to do?' The funny thing about it is that I almost always also have a plan for what I want to cover. Funny thing is that, for the most part, we can do whatever and still cover the 'plan'. 

Me (thinking): I want to work on shaping space (kukan) and ways of taking it.

Others: Let's work on punching, stuff on the ground, san shin, etc...

Me: Okay, that's what I was thinking.....



> I am looking forward to the day I can start a shibu, because, although I am in no real hurry to teach or instruct, it would be good to have a group of people to practice on/with and be able to decide what we are going to work on so I can address my weaknesses.


Why not get together with other people from the dojo now? You don't have to put up a webpage and rank people, just hang and train (and maybe drink afterwards)!




> Mind you, I am going to be the father of twins in the next few weeks so I am hoping to cleverly manipulate my offspring into wanting to learn the art!


Congrats! Let me know if you figure anything out, one day I'll be trying to do the same. My plan right now is to put them into a Judo class when they're young and worry about Bujinkan when they start to get a bit older.


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## ElfTengu (Oct 9, 2008)

stephen said:


> What's a sly-a-busss? Never seen one....None in my dojo....


 
By syllabus I don't mean some kind of Semitic dessert,  I mean everything in the Bujinkan that has a name on a densho somewhere (plus all the stuff that doesn't).



stephen said:


> I tend to start class with, 'What do you guys want to do?' The funny thing about it is that I almost always also have a plan for what I want to cover. Funny thing is that, for the most part, we can do whatever and still cover the 'plan'.
> 
> Me (thinking): I want to work on shaping space (kukan) and ways of taking it.
> 
> ...


 
We often get the same opportunity but we all know we need to get the proper stuff down correctly before we can play with it. Sometimes one of the class is just sent out to do something and the rest of the class evolves from whatever that something is.



stephen said:


> Why not get together with other people from the dojo now? You don't have to put up a webpage and rank people, just hang and train (and maybe drink afterwards)!.....


 
The problem with our particular dojo is that it is central to all of us who turn up to train regularly but we are spread out as if at the end of long spokes on a wheel with the dojo being the axle, and most people are in the opposite direction to mine and there is only one person anywhere near me and he is a busy schoolteacher with little free time.

I need to rope some poor unfortunate into my world of ninjas for regular beatings in my back garden!




stephen said:


> Congrats! Let me know if you figure anything out, one day I'll be trying to do the same. My plan right now is to put them into a Judo class when they're young and worry about Bujinkan when they start to get a bit older.


 
I intend to keep all my martial doings as mysterious and intriguing as possible, and try to put them off like that breakfast cereal ad with the clusters. Hook 'em and reel em in, before they find out about football and other mainstream crap to clog up their lives with. My dad tried to force mainstream sports on me and I have memories of having cricket balls whacked at me, and footballs kicked at me and I have a deep seated hatred of those sports now and cannot even watch them at 38 years old!


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## Ronnin (Oct 9, 2008)

stephen said:


> Why not get together with other people from the dojo now? You don't have to put up a webpage and rank people, just hang and train (and maybe drink afterwards)!
> .


This is perfect, where can i join


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## ElfTengu (Oct 10, 2008)

Ronnin said:


> This is perfect, where can i join


 
South East England, Kent for Stephen, Sussex for me, but you have to turn up every week, even if you live in America!:uhyeah:


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## Ronnin (Oct 10, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> South East England, Kent for Stephen, Sussex for me, but you have to turn up every week, even if you live in America!:uhyeah:


pshsh.......no problem !!!


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## stephen (Oct 11, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> South East England, Kent for Stephen, Sussex for me, but you have to turn up every week, even if you live in America!:uhyeah:



Kent?


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## ElfTengu (Oct 13, 2008)

stephen said:


> Kent?


 
Sorry Stephen, I was sure you organised an event once that was technically in Kent (London borders), and assumed you were based there, but now I think about it, it may have been Manchester Dojo who organised that one, and now I have done my homework I realise that you are actually based in Dundee.:2xBird2:


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## stephen (Oct 13, 2008)

ElfTengu said:


> Sorry Stephen, I was sure you organised an event once that was technically in Kent (London borders), and assumed you were based there, but now I think about it, it may have been Manchester Dojo who organised that one, and now I have done my homework I realise that you are actually based in Dundee.:2xBird2:




I'm all London all the time. I wasn't aware that there _was_ anything outside of London. 

Do you guys have running water?


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## ElfTengu (Oct 14, 2008)

stephen said:


> Do you guys have running water?


 
We have now you've made me cry.

And I've lost the piece of straw I was chewing.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm not reading through the whole thread, I know what this is getting at.

How about we all just remind our _uke_ to not be lazy, hmm?


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## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 27, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> ... Block Up, Block Down, Reverse Punch, Turn Left, Reverse Punch, Turn Right, Reverse Punch, face Front, Block Up, Block Down, ...



I think if you pause and then do that, you'll get 30 extra lives..


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## Cryozombie (Mar 27, 2009)

shizen shigoku said:


> i think if you pause and then do that, you'll get 30 extra lives..



up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, b, a


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 28, 2009)

Kreth said:


> Good point. I've trained with many people over the years at seminars, and some were shocked if you made even the slightest contact with a punch. A certain now-defunct NYC dojo was notorious for this, IMO.



This is a pet peeve of mine, and something that I repeat over and over to the other newbies when we are doing partner drills. People without MA background sometimes need to mentally adjust to the idea of inflicting pain.

I want them to try and hit me. Speed and power of the attack depends on the skill level on both partners. But the attack should be meant to hit. Otherwise I can't train my defense properly. If I don't react, they should land a blow with whatever it is they are attacking with.

Likewise, if I have to attack, I will do so with the intent to hit them. Again, speed and power depend on the level of us both, but if they stand there, they will get hit.

It's getting better though. Some of them used to apologise when landing even the slightest hit. My stock answer to such apologies (which I learned from a JJ brown belt a long time ago): 'I am not made of sugar, and this is not the flower arrangement 101 class. This is a martial arts class.' sometimes followed by 'don't worry about it. I'll hit you too'


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## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 28, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> This is a pet peeve of mine, and something that I repeat over and over to the other newbies when we are doing partner drills. People without MA background sometimes need to mentally adjust to the idea of inflicting pain.
> 
> I want them to try and hit me. ...



If it seems like my _uke_ isn't going to hit me (and I can tell the moment they start to move), then I won't move at.  When then look on quizzically or ask why I am not attempting the technique, I tell them, "I'm not going to move if you're not going to hit me."


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## kcs (Mar 29, 2009)

I think we need to practice randori more and up the intensity. I watched some other bujinkan schools and they practice with intensity.  Don't get me wrong there is a lot of dojos that aren't on youtube and they train hard.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 29, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> I want them to try and hit me. Speed and power of the attack depends on the skill level on both partners. But the attack should be meant to hit. Otherwise I can't train my defense properly. If I don't react, they should land a blow with whatever it is they are attacking with.


 
I don't disagree with you, but at the same time I dont think its always neccessary to make hard contact, or to put the pepper on each blow so to speak. Don't get me wrong I do think it needs to be done... and to be honest with you, when I was bouncing I got hit by a guy, and my reaction wasn't "oh crap I got hit" and panic! it was "Wtf, that dude punched me, the jackass..." as I went after him, and I don't think I could have had that second reaction if I wasn't used to getting hit anyhow... and I think that would be a wakeup call for the guys who never get hit... but I think there's a good balance in there someplace between punching people and tapping them and stopping short depending what is being drilled.


Also, I like to apologise to my partners whenever I hit them. I'm ingraining a habit so I can hit my opponent and make him think it was an accident as I say sorry for doing it, while the next one is coming in. 

Unless I am training with Kagemusha, in which case I just beat him. hehe.


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## jks9199 (Mar 29, 2009)

Training at different levels of contact/reality/aliveness/what-have-you is necessary -- and the appropriate level changes at different stages.  But the techniques must always be delivered towards the actual position, so that they MUST respond appropriately or feel contact.

At the first stage of learning a new technique, your partner should present the attack at a slow to moderate speed, and with little force.  They simply are receiving your defense, and letting you figure it out without headaches and hassles.  (This doesn't mean they don't practice good technique or don't throw it to where you are...)  As you become more familiar and confident with the technique, the force and speed should increase, until you'll get hurt if you don't respond appropriately.  The last stage is adding "unpredictability"; they don't simply let you work the defense, and they can adapt to your defense if they have an opportunity.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 29, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> It's getting better though. Some of them used to apologise when landing even the slightest hit. My stock answer to such apologies (which I learned from a JJ brown belt a long time ago): 'I am not made of sugar, and this is not the flower arrangement 101 class. This is a martial arts class.' sometimes followed by 'don't worry about it. I'll hit you too'


 
I like this. I think I will use them too.


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## Hudson69 (Apr 3, 2009)

I think I might have already replied to this one so forgive me but I, from my experience see the bujinkan as a slow to be useful art/system and lacks the emphasis on any randori or sparring additionally held back by its over emphasis on archaic weaponry.

Now to explain a little further I believe that some people will be able to use some of the training earlier than others just because people are different (duh!) but once your are at the 2nd or 1st kyu or higher you should be able to get away with holding your own.  I think the fault with this is the lack of randori or sparring and I really believe that if you put a student of a more street/MMA/made for combat "now" art against a BBT student the BBT student will more than likely lose primarily because you will have a shadow boxer going up against someone who has applied his/her skills at speed and also knows what it is like to get hit and knows their pain/endurance threshold.

My opinion is based off of having been in three different Bujinkan schools (thanks to the military), having been a Kenpo student and a LE Defensive Tactics Instructor.  I think that the "ninja" training really pays off in the side skills (ukemi & taihenjutsu) you get along with the taijutsu.

Would anyone who reads this please send me a response to how they feel about it; my opinion is not set in stone and I would really like to know how others feel about this.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 3, 2009)

There are 2 sides to this argument.

On one side are the people who say that you can't get good experience without sparring. And in a way they are right, because without sparring it takes a long time to become good enough to hold your own.

On the other are the people who say no to sparring because it makes the student get bad habits. Instead of applying proper techniques, they do what they can to win, through force instead of technique. On top of that is the issue that sparring comes with rules, and you learn to fight within those rules to the point where you no longer consider things outside the rules.

There is something to be said for both arguments. I am somewhere in the middle. In Genbukan, you don't have randori until you have been in it for quite a while, and even then the point of sparring is not to win, but to learn to apply your techniques.


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## jks9199 (Apr 4, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> I think I might have already replied to this one so forgive me but I, from my experience see the bujinkan as a slow to be useful art/system and lacks the emphasis on any randori or sparring additionally held back by its over emphasis on archaic weaponry.
> 
> Now to explain a little further I believe that some people will be able to use some of the training earlier than others just because people are different (duh!) but once your are at the 2nd or 1st kyu or higher you should be able to get away with holding your own.  I think the fault with this is the lack of randori or sparring and I really believe that if you put a student of a more street/MMA/made for combat "now" art against a BBT student the BBT student will more than likely lose primarily because you will have a shadow boxer going up against someone who has applied his/her skills at speed and also knows what it is like to get hit and knows their pain/endurance threshold.
> 
> ...


Caveat -- I have not trained in the Bujinkan or any of the related schools.  I confess to a longtime curiosity and fascination with them, though.

I think the defensive skills in the Bujinkan are slower to develop than some other arts.  They seem more like aikido in that respect, compared to perhaps jujustu or karate.  I think some of the techniques are probably able to be taught quickly -- but most take time.  They're more advanced/intricate/complex...  

If I were to draw a spectrum of hand-to-hand defensive skills, I'd put LE DT, a lot military hand-to-hand, and similar stuff at the bottom.  They consist of a small collection of easily learned, easily retained, large-muscle techniques that can be taught quickly without extensive time, and generally lend themselves to structured, large group training.  Often, these can almost be seen as a subset of the skills in one or more martial arts.  They can be learned to a functional level in a matter of weeks of dedicated practice.

The middle section would include things like karate, capoeria, many of the Japanese traditional budo systems, as well as many of the Western martial arts, like fencing, boxing, wrestling, and the like.  These systems have a larger catalog of techniques, and training often puts significant emphasis on variants of sparring.  You can learn these, to reasonable degree of skill, in several months of good, hard training.

At the high end, I'd put styles like aikido and the X-kan systems.  They can take a lot longer to learn; they often include emphasis on movement and positioning and "strategic" thinking and approaches to a fight more than the tactical approaches of the training methods lower in the spectrum.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Apr 4, 2009)

I've never heard it described this way before but I like it a lot!


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## CHAOS (Apr 7, 2009)

OK. Im just getting in on the tail end of this, but I think I have a little insight that some may not. 1. I am a 15yr veteran of Aiki Budo. I do not claim Aiki jujitsu, or Aikido because I study all aspects of combat from an Aiki standpoint, which is, do it the most efficient way possible. 2. I am a police officer. I train in Martial Science for survival. This includes empty hands, bladed weapons, impact weapons, and firearms. 3. I have studied with all kinds of practitioners in my off time, just to see how I stand up in "combat" not art. This includes Bujinkan. 4. I have fought for my life, on more than one occasion, due to my work. And I am happy to say that everything I have learned and experienced has been useful in this.
I want to point out that I have competed in MMA on an amature level, and found that those guys are tough as hell. But....it is not life or death combat and if I were not confined to the rules of the "game", I would have been able to overcome many attacks and holds that did me in while fighting in the ring. As a Budoka, I have taken my art to another level and introduced firearms and handcuffs into my list of tactics. I taught other officers how to use those items in an Aiki fashion. I have also noticed that what I thought I "discovered" was being taught by Dr. Hatsume way before I thought of it. BJJ, MMA, and Vale Tudo are great for someone that is fighting one on one with a guy that is your size/strength or smaller. But, in it's purest form, it has no place in real combat. But if you augment it a little, and add or change a few minor things, its great. But, then its not the same style anymore. And lets be honest. MMA is just that. Mixed. Its a collection of easy-to-learn techniques that require gross muscle movement and a *LOT* of conditioning and strength. Do you really think a small female will be able to subdue a 6' 5", 265lb attacker with the "ground and pound" techniques that are popular in that system. Professionals need a size and strength equalizer such as Aiki Budo or Bujinkan to be devistatingly advantageous. But most pros do not have the time or budget to put in the training needed to be proficient with those principals. I have a lot of respect for the accomplished MMA fighter. I have a ton of respect for our military. And of course my brothers in blue are at the top of my list. Would I want my loved ones to learn to defend themselves with their techniques. Not on your life. Bujinkan, or any other martial "art" is only as good as the teacher mixed with the individual talents of the student. The principals are based on human anatomy and geometry and are very useful in a combat situation. But, most people dont have the time to teach it to those who will see true combat. So where do you draw the line?


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## MMcGuirk (Apr 7, 2009)

CHAOS said:


> Bujinkan, or any other martial "art" is only as good as the teacher mixed with the individual talents of the student. The principals are based on human anatomy and geometry and are very useful in a combat situation. But, most people dont have the time to teach it to those who will see true combat. So where do you draw the line?


 

It's a common problem. But I think you hit the nail on the head or at least alluded to it.  It's the individuals responsibility.

How much time can we devote to training?  Do we really know if we have a good teacher?  Common problems shared by a lot of us.  I don't even want to think about how much money I've spent over the years going to seminars and training.  I could probably have paid off my student loan!

I think it comes down to honesty toward yourself and doing some hard research and even harder self evaluation on yourself.  Do I really have a teacher who knows his/her stuff?  

Would these principles work in a real fight?
How fast should I be progressing?  Am I really pushing myself hard?  For me, I ask my friends to be honest with me.  What I did to you, would this really have worked against you?  What if you were numbed by rage?  Would you have felt these strikes?  I pretty much figured out a lot of this but you get the point.

Personally I am my own worst critic.  I am humbled by those who are much better than me and can point out and actually do what they are teaching in real speed.  

A common point my betters do make though is this:  constant consistent training will improve your skills.  Going too fast before you learn the proper movements and principles will only retard your learning.  People want to go full out to test themselves before they are ready.  And then they go to rats""t in training or a real situation and then blame the art.

I have a few friends who have used the skills practiced in real life and they've come home safe.  I've used it in a situation involving blades and have come out safely.

In the end we cannot have a perfect set standard for everyone.  
Where I live, a police officer was gunned down with their own weapon.  No video was ever shown of the incident but it was a situation where the officer curled up into a ball when confronted.  In the same police dept. we had an officer get shot in the chest point blank with a shotgun.  That officer returned fire from the ground as the suspect tried to get away and made them run into a fence. (bullet proof vest! and the would be cop killer was caught)  Same police dept. same training.


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## ElfTengu (Apr 7, 2009)

Great post Chaos, I'm always willing to listen to anyone who has put money where their mouth is.

I don't think I have seen it summed up so succinctly without offending anyone, in fact I would have gone a little further and pointed out what is lacking in most taijutsu practitioners that will make them lose in a serious situation, although you addressed this when you said it is about the individual and the teacher.

It is sad but true however that for many people, 10+ years of training will do them about as much good as giving a gun to a mouse.

Amusingly, what is missing in most peoples' taijutsu training, i.e. the psychological factors of fear, stress and adrenaline (as well as physical fitness and conditioning) can be found very quickly by signing up for a few months of MMA and re-visiting it from time to time. Certainly preferable to risking life and limb in a police or military environment although obviously no substitute, although having said that, I doubt if anyone envies the police officer who has to arrest Chuck Lidell after one of his famous nights out, I mean, do they use a gun because he has bigger muscles than them and his profession depends upon not letting people restrain him? LOL.


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## Hudson69 (Apr 8, 2009)

Being a Police Officer myself I generally agree with this reply.  I am a DT Instructor as well as having a background in primarily Kenpo and Budo Taijutsu and yes the skills I want my family and friends to learn are the ones that are going to keep them safe, Budo Taijutsu is not it; if it had to be an "art" school it would be either Ed Parker's Kenpo or Jeet Kune Do.  I appreciate a ground fighting based martial art but I want something that can handle multiple attackers and has enough ground escapes to be useful and is direct enough to end the fight as quickly as possible.  DT works best for me and has been tested by my department on a number of occaisions; . . . . . it works when it counts.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 8, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> but I want something that can handle multiple attackers



The 100 m hurdles?


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## CHAOS (Jul 25, 2009)

ElfTengu said:


> Great post Chaos, I'm always willing to listen to anyone who has put money where their mouth is.
> 
> I don't think I have seen it summed up so succinctly without offending anyone, in fact I would have gone a little further and pointed out what is lacking in most taijutsu practitioners that will make them lose in a serious situation, although you addressed this when you said it is about the individual and the teacher.
> 
> ...


 
The issue of arresting someone like Liddell, is that even though he is tough, fast, strong and experienced, he is really not that smart. Im not trying to offend anyone, I am only pointing out his weakness. I've watched his fights in slow motion and in great detail. He relys on the fact that he is nearly impossible to knock out. He fights sloppy, even for MMA, and get hit over and over again. We deal with guys like this every day. The thing about LE and Military, is we have no other option but to be smart about our altercations. We are trained not to take unneccessary risks. We are not attempting to gain popularity or win an event. We are doing a job. Combat is part of our profession. Liddell is trained to fight one man, in underwear, with rules and a cup. We are trained to stop the forward progression of the attack and subdue the suspect while looking for his friends. We also have weapons. Liddell has never shown up for training and his coach sprayed him in the face with OC, hit him in the tricept with a metal baton, and had three other people jump on him and drag him to the ground. And, given him the instructions that if he can fight back and initiate a deadly force attack on the combatants he will be met with multiple rounds of gunfire. This is always in the back of the mind of guy that is fighting Police. He may be drunk, or crazy, enough to convince himself that we will not escalate a fight to that level, but it is social training that will cause him to falter just a little, due to self preservation, during the altercation. It is socially acceptable for a Police officer to strike a suspect that is larger and stronger, during a legal detainment, with an impact weapon, if the officer is in harms way and losing. It would be leagally acceptable to use an elevated amount of force due to common knowledge of Liddell's abilities and conditioning. That will give the officer a "mental go-ahead" to go to the next level, where he may hesitate if it were an unknown person. As an officer you will go into the fight knowing that you may use the amount of force you deem fit, to end the forward progression of the attack. 
Just look up the video of the officer fighting the boxer , on youtube. That video set a prescidence for all law enforcement officers that know their limits in combat. If you CAN'T win in a hands-on encounter, you up the anti.
  As for the part about the 10+ years of experience and being inneffective... I had an former Special Forces instructor, who spent time in the jungles of Viet Nam, tell me one time. " Never underestimate anyone that has 10+ years of training in anything. A carpenter that has been swinging a hammer for 15 years will eat your lunch if he is fighting with a hammer." I will bow low to a 10 year veteran of any dicipline. I have 25 years of training in various systems and diciplines and I know what a guy can accomplish in a decade.
  I also encourage my student to experince the MMA world. Yes, you can get very close to the "fight or flight" level in that type of environment. I use a few "drills" to get my guys in that "fear factor". I will turn all the lights out, turn on some death metal, turn on the strobe light and have them play a sort of "monkey in the middle". one guy has 2min. with every guy in the circle, and then change out. It is mind-numbing! 
Military is a whole different game. You have rules to follow, but the main one is "kill the enemy". Makes for more options to end the fight, than what is allowed for LE. And thank you for your "kudos" on my humble oppinion on a subject that is most controversial in modern combatives.


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## CHAOS (Jul 25, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> Being a Police Officer myself I generally agree with this reply. I am a DT Instructor as well as having a background in primarily Kenpo and Budo Taijutsu and yes the skills I want my family and friends to learn are the ones that are going to keep them safe, Budo Taijutsu is not it; if it had to be an "art" school it would be either Ed Parker's Kenpo or Jeet Kune Do. I appreciate a ground fighting based martial art but I want something that can handle multiple attackers and has enough ground escapes to be useful and is direct enough to end the fight as quickly as possible. DT works best for me and has been tested by my department on a number of occaisions; . . . . . it works when it counts.


 
 The thing about "Defensive Tactics" taining I like is that it is a "martial science" not a martial "art". The only qualms I have with it is that it is just as the name implies...Defensive. I know you have come to the realization that most of the encounter in our profession require us to be "Offensive", or precautionary. Nearly all the major altercations I have been involved in, as a peace officer, started with me having to "attack" someone to protect another or myself. The other thing is that they don't really teach you how to continue learning. The tactics are based on technique intead of principal. Techniques are concrete and un-evolving. Principals can be attached to any number of techniques or reactions. I also incorporate a number of "third person defenses" that you don't find in standard LE DT. If we are called on to "serve and protect" the public, without putting them in harms way, should'nt we be trained how to do that. I am GREATFUL that my instructors put a lot of emphasis on third person protection and gave me the drills and experience to apply that knowledge. I have had to dip from that bucket on several occasions, during family disturbances, when the attack was still "in progress" on my arrival. 
  I know that no system or art is the end all to combatives. I do, however, believe that there are a set number of principals that apply no matter what you are teaching. A human body can only move, or be moved, a certain, finite way. All systems of strategy need to incorporate prinicipals that maximize the student efficiency, and minimize the gross muscle movement needed to gain the initiative. And all systems need to recognize and understand the OODA loop.


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## ElfTengu (Jul 27, 2009)

CHAOS said:


> The issue of arresting someone like Liddell, is that even though he is tough, fast, strong and experienced, he is really not that smart. Im not trying to offend anyone, I am only pointing out his weakness. I've watched his fights in slow motion and in great detail. He relys on the fact that he is nearly impossible to knock out. He fights sloppy, even for MMA, and get hit over and over again. We deal with guys like this every day. The thing about LE and Military, is we have no other option but to be smart about our altercations. We are trained not to take unneccessary risks. We are not attempting to gain popularity or win an event. We are doing a job. Combat is part of our profession. Liddell is trained to fight one man, in underwear, with rules and a cup. We are trained to stop the forward progression of the attack and subdue the suspect while looking for his friends. We also have weapons. Liddell has never shown up for training and his coach sprayed him in the face with OC, hit him in the tricept with a metal baton, and had three other people jump on him and drag him to the ground. And, given him the instructions that if he can fight back and initiate a deadly force attack on the combatants he will be met with multiple rounds of gunfire. This is always in the back of the mind of guy that is fighting Police. He may be drunk, or crazy, enough to convince himself that we will not escalate a fight to that level, but it is social training that will cause him to falter just a little, due to self preservation, during the altercation. It is socially acceptable for a Police officer to strike a suspect that is larger and stronger, during a legal detainment, with an impact weapon, if the officer is in harms way and losing. It would be leagally acceptable to use an elevated amount of force due to common knowledge of Liddell's abilities and conditioning. That will give the officer a "mental go-ahead" to go to the next level, where he may hesitate if it were an unknown person. As an officer you will go into the fight knowing that you may use the amount of force you deem fit, to end the forward progression of the attack.
> Just look up the video of the officer fighting the boxer , on youtube. That video set a prescidence for all law enforcement officers that know their limits in combat. If you CAN'T win in a hands-on encounter, you up the anti.
> As for the part about the 10+ years of experience and being inneffective... I had an former Special Forces instructor, who spent time in the jungles of Viet Nam, tell me one time. " Never underestimate anyone that has 10+ years of training in anything. A carpenter that has been swinging a hammer for 15 years will eat your lunch if he is fighting with a hammer." I will bow low to a 10 year veteran of any dicipline. I have 25 years of training in various systems and diciplines and I know what a guy can accomplish in a decade.
> I also encourage my student to experince the MMA world. Yes, you can get very close to the "fight or flight" level in that type of environment. I use a few "drills" to get my guys in that "fear factor". I will turn all the lights out, turn on some death metal, turn on the strobe light and have them play a sort of "monkey in the middle". one guy has 2min. with every guy in the circle, and then change out. It is mind-numbing!
> Military is a whole different game. You have rules to follow, but the main one is "kill the enemy". Makes for more options to end the fight, than what is allowed for LE. And thank you for your "kudos" on my humble oppinion on a subject that is most controversial in modern combatives.


 
All good stuff again, but I still say you would be better off having to arrest the archetypal 10 year Bujinkanner than Chuck Lidell. You would certainly be better off having to arrest me than him. I am not as strong, conditioned or fit, have not had a fraction of his exposure to resistant training partners, can probably not take hits as readily, have hardly ever hit another person in anger, and don't take drugs or have anger management problems. A Rhinocerous is not a particularly intelligent creature and with not much of a varied game plan, but I still wouldn't want to upset one in open ground!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 25, 2009)

Anyone want to tell me what happened to my last post here?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 25, 2009)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Anyone want to tell me what happened to my last post here?



There was a merging attempt with another site and things went poorly.  The restore point was probably before your last post.


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