# Modern Arnis Umbrella Organization?



## Dieter (Jun 9, 2003)

Hi,

I only found this thread recently and maybe I am throwing back the discussion, but I want to comment on the following:



> 2. In regards to the 8th degrees in Modern Arnis from Filipines, some of them hadn't trained with Professor Presas for 20-30 years.



I have just been  in Manila in Mach 2003 and have trained with all of the 8th Dans and even an 9th Dan from the Professor (Cristino Vasquez) and the above statement is not true. The Professor returned at least 6 times back to the Philippines, after Marcos left the Philippines.
Some of them have a lot of the newer techniques of the Professor. It is up to them, if they decide to teach them or not.
Many pof them have started Modern Arnis under Remy in the 60ies and never stopped training and teaching. They also have found their indiuvidual way of Modern Arnis and continued to develop it. So also in the Philippines there are a lot of different individual interpretations of Modern Arnis. 
And I belive, we should pay them more respect and not only talk about the Delaney´s, Shea´s, Hartmann´s etc (put any name here, this is not a negative comment about these people) as the successors or the persons, who continue Professor´s legacy.
All of them are our seniors and all of them have a long Modern Arnis history.
Only Rodel Dagooc was in the states and taught and all I read of was highest respect for his abilities in Modern Arnis.

In my opinion, ALL of the Modern Arnis associations and groups should join under ONE roof of ONE Modern Arnis headorganisation, which should be lead py the Filipino Masters and Grandmasters. Each of the organisations should stay INDEPENDENT regarding techniques gradings etc, but this would set a sign that we all are Modern Arnis and not just a bunch of egoists who only try to profile themselves.  (I overexaggerated the last sentence to get the point clear. No personal offense intended).

Writing took me a little away from my first intention so I leave it to the moderators, to maybe split the thread and make a separate one out of this post, perhaps in the Modern Arnis section of the board.


Just a few cents from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## moromoro (Jun 9, 2003)

Hi Dieter

a fantastic post and reply.





> In my opinion, ALL of the Modern Arnis associations and groups should join under ONE roof of ONE Modern Arnis headorganisation, which should be lead py the Filipino Masters and Grandmasters.



yep, as an outsider i agree 100%, pEOPLE seem to want to forget that the arts are from the PHILIPPINES....



> Many pof them have started Modern Arnis under Remy in the 60ies and never stopped training and teaching. They also have found their indiuvidual way of Modern Arnis and continued to develop it. So also in the Philippines there are a lot of different individual interpretations of Modern Arnis.


The Fact that many of these masters have been training for close to 40 years is something which we should respect.....

these masters can teach most people in the US a thing or two....
As they are seniors in Modern Arnis...


thanks

Terry


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *Hi,
> 
> 1.  I have just been  in Manila in Mach 2003 and have trained with all of the 8th Dans and even an 9th Dan from the Professor (Cristino Vasquez)... And I belive, we should pay them more respect and not only talk about the Delaney´s, Shea´s, Hartmann´s etc (put any name here, this is not a negative comment about these people) as the successors or the persons, who continue Professor´s legacy.
> ...



Dieter,
Thanks for your comments.
1.  Very few of us (myself included) have been to the PI so outside or Rodel, we don't know the seniors there.  You have been there a number of times so you have met them.

2.  I disagree for the above reason.  I personally pledge allegience out of personal knowledge of the person and not because of of any other reason.  This is not intended to be ANY kind of disrespect to the masters inthe PI but I don't know them.  I knew Remy Presas.

3.  The one organization theme and point 3 are  in direct contradiction with each other.  You can't have one leader with separate grading organizations without someone trying to pull the reins in.  Won't and hasn't worked.

I look forward to hooking up with you at the Symposium and discussing this further.  I do have a quick question for you:  as you are on the grading board at the Symposium (and you have senior ranking directly from the seniors in the PI), will the ranks awarded be recognized as valid in the PI?

Yours,
Dan Anderson
PS - I have your books for you.


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## Cruentus (Jun 9, 2003)

> The Professor returned at least 6 times back to the Philippines, after Marcos left the Philippines.



Marcos left the PI in 1986, I believe. So in 20-30 years, the PI masters trained with Professor 6 times? This hardly allows them to stake claim on Professors research and developement within these years. 



> They also have found their indiuvidual way of Modern Arnis and continued to develop it. So also in the Philippines there are a lot of different individual interpretations of Modern Arnis.



I can agree with this, but then lets call it what it is. Your statement here points exactly to what I was talking about. Modern Arnis in the PI is a completely different animal then modern arnis in the US. At this point because of further developement of the art, Dieter Arnis, WMAA arnis, IMAF, INc. Arnis and (insert name of group here) arnis are all different animals at this point.

Modern arnis in the PI is not the same as Prof. Presas modern arnis as developed over the past 20-30 years. 6 lessons from professor is not going to change this fact.

Does this mean that Modern Arnis PI is no good? No! Different? YES! I, nor anybody else from the "american" orgs. intend to disrespect the masters from the PI. I have not said anything against Modern Arnis PI in terms of skill level, for I have not played with them enough to have an opinion regarding this. But, lets not BS each other and fool ourselves. Modern Arnis PI is NOT Modern Arnis US. 

To argue that Modern Arnis PI is better then Modern Arnis US because "Professor was Filipino" is a ridicules and a borderline racist arguement as well (I'm not blaming you, Dieter, for making this arguement, but that seems to be the tone of certian posters here). The fact is, comparing the two is not comparing apples to apples. Until the PI masters get on the floor with US masters in a symposium type environment where we can all see for ourselves, or unless they all get in a pit and fight to see who wins, we'll never really know the answer to this. I believe that it will be a loooooong time before we ever know this answer, if ever.



> In my opinion, ALL of the Modern Arnis associations and groups should join under ONE roof of ONE Modern Arnis headorganisation, which should be lead py the Filipino Masters and Grandmasters.



I see your opinion and respect it. However, lets call this opinion what it is as well, and not BS each other here either. If the above were to occur, you would be considered the highest ranked non-filipino in the world, because you recieved your 7th in the PI recently. So, you have a serious motive for supporting this idea. THis idea works great for you, but not so great for everyone else.

What if I were to argue: 

"IMAF, Inc. should be the leaders because they were successors of Professors org., and they were around within the last 10 years of research and developement of professors art." 

or

"Tim hartman should be the leader because he was the highest ranked datu who was 'active' with professor at the timne of his passing."

or

"MARPPIO should lead because they were his Professors Kids"

or (insert any arguement here to fit the motive of any group)

You see, Dieter, these arguements are ridicules. They go no where because all they are is an attempt for one group to try to jocky for position, to be above everyone else. The thick motives behind these arguements make them invalid.

The fact is, Professor has been passed away for a long enough time now for the different factions to have further developed Modern Arnis as they see fit. All of the different factions now teach a different "form" of Modern Arnis, so it would be illogical to have 1 group lead, and expect that all the different "styles" out there become subservient to that one group.

Different groups can work together, for sure. The weaker groups will eventually fall off, or be merged with another group. But to expect everyone to throw away what they have been doing and working so hard to build, and admit subserviance to another group is not even an option at this point.

I respect what you are saying, but....I don't think so.
 
PAUL


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 9, 2003)

Paul, I basically agree with yuo except for the ridiculous part.  That means to hold something up to ridicule or is something to ridicule and I don't think Dieter's statements are anywhere near that.  That he presents points we are in disagreement with, yes.  That they are ridiculous, no.  Over and out.

Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus (Jun 9, 2003)

I say that some of these arguements could be "held up to ridicule," given that there are clear motives behind them.

I don't think that Dieter should be "ridiculed" however!


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## Dieter (Jun 9, 2003)

Reply to MoroMoro,

I just want to clarify one thing:

I have high respect also for all of the american students, who followed Remy in some cases for more than 20 years. 
All of them have learned a great deal from him and I am sure all of them have something to offer as teacher and as practitioners.
Still, even though Remy was mainly in the  US the last 25 years, it is a filipino martial art and I think we all could set a sign, if we would declare that we would be willing to work all together under one roof. Still as independent organisations, still withg or own gradin grequirements (everything else will not work) but it would be a strong sign to the martial arts world, that Modern Arnis is united, because we, all over the world, have two things in common: We are students of Professor Remy Presas and we acknowledge the origin of our art, the Philippines.

I can understand, that one has problems to accept a fellow practitioner or even a junor as the head opf a style, what is happening in the US right now. But I think we should have no problem, to accept the seniority of Masters, who have been in Modern Arnis since over 40 years.
In the same move, I think we should accept the 8th and 9th Dans of Modern Arnis in the Philippines as Grandmasters of Modern Arnis. I don´t see the point, if the are called Senior Masters until the end. 
We in Germany have defined, with the knowledge and in agreement with the Professor, that 6th Dan is Junior Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th - 10th Dan is Grandmaster, because they deserve it.  

This does not take anything away of the acomplishments of the american Modern Arnis Masters and and it also solves the problems, how the 5 and 6th Dans in America can achieve a higher level. There are higher Masters/Grandmasters in the Philippines who can promote the people who deserve it in a serious and honest way.

Again just a few thoughts, but I think valid ones.


Best regards from Germany



Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Cruentus (Jun 9, 2003)

Fair enough....

And I have stated my opinions regarding the issue.

:asian:


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## Dieter (Jun 9, 2003)

Reply to Dan Anderson



> This is not intended to be ANY kind of disrespect to the masters inthe PI but I don't know them. I knew Remy Presas.



This is exactly the point Dan. You knew him and he was your teacher and now he is goine and what now?
You turn to Ted Buot (spelling?) of Balintawak, because it was a core art of Modern Arnis - so why not go to the Masters that know the Modern Arnis of that time and also of later times - the 8th Dans. 




> 3. The one organization theme and point 3 are in direct contradiction with each other. You can't have one leader with separate grading organizations without someone trying to pull the reins in. Won't and hasn't worked.



I can understan your hesitation, but I think it could work. If you would have the head organisation as the governing body. In Germany we have a Karate head association with different Styles within, all separate ands it works.
I think it is clearly a matter of will and not if is it possible.



> I look forward to hooking up with you at the Symposium and discussing this further.



Me too. It wil be nice to talk face to face without the stupid keyboard in between.



> I do have a quick question for you: as you are on the grading board at the Symposium (and you have senior ranking directly from the seniors in the PI), will the ranks awarded be recognized as valid in the PI?



Well, I don´t know but I would reckon yes.



Paul



> If the above were to occur, you would be considered the highest ranked non-filipino in the world, because you recieved your 7th in the PI recently. So, you have a serious motive for supporting this idea. THis idea works great for you, but not so great for everyone else.



This is the fact, with or without this idea, but not the point.

I can see you hesitations and concern because of this- but I have no intentions in any direction to tell ANY of the american leaders of Modern Arnis what is right or wrong just because I am 7th Dan. I am based in Germany and will stay here. I will be happy to come to the US every once in a while if people want to see me there teaching, but I have no intentions of being the head of anything in Modern Arnis exept of here in Germany/Europe.
This is why I said, that the organisations should be independent, that I could not and should not tell Tim or Kelly or Randy how to handle thir internal affairs within their association and they would not interfere here with mine organisation. But it would show to the martial arts world, that there is a bond that unites us and that we are not fighting over things, we cannot, will not or don´t even want to change. See also David Hoffmans comments in the Modern Arnis Forum of rge WMAC and here.

We agree in many points, filipino Modern Arnis has a different taste than american Modern Arnis. Do they still have something to offer: sure.

But let me rephrase the beginning of the whole associational aspects of my mails and I will  quote a great american: " I have a dream, ...  that all Modern Arnis associations will ....."

You know what I mean. I think it is a dream worth thinking about and pleads belive me, that I don´t see me as the head of anything within it. 
I have my position now here in Germany, I am respected in the US due to the respect for the title that Remy gave me and I hope after the symposium I will be respected for who I am, what I teach and for my Modern Arnis as such.

The head organisation would not change a thing there.

And please Paul, belive me, I am not a racist. I know that westerners can be excellent martial artist and that the color of the skin has nothing to to with abilities in martial arts - but it has something to o with the heritage of our Modern Arnis.


Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Cruentus (Jun 9, 2003)

I can see what you are saying. And, who knows what will happend in terms of uniting in the future?

I will say, that it is one thing to unite "with" someone, like modern arnisadors in the PI. It is another to be "under" someone. "With" allows people to be free to move in the direction they want. "Under" does not give them that freedom.

I don't think that US Modern Arnis orgs. and leaders have any problem with uniting "with" anyone. It is being "under" someone else, and having to throw away what they have been building based off of what their late teacher had asked of them; this is where the problem occurs.

Oh, and I don't think your racist; the arguement can be, though. I don't think you intend for the arguement to be racist either; it is just that there have been others on this board lately who have made arguements that are outright racist against non-filipinos. That is why I mentioned it. You have not done anything "racist" here that I have seen. So please don't take that comment as directed towards you.


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## arnisador (Jun 9, 2003)

Thread split from here, renamed, and moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *Reply to Dan Anderson
> 
> This is exactly the point Dan. You knew him and he was your teacher and now he is gone and what now?*



My _what now_ was to officially come out with my own style curriculum of Modern Arnis.  I am known in the karate field for developing my own slant to karate.  I have done the same for Modern Arnis.  This should be no surprise to anyone who knows me or my history.  One thing I do want to state and that is my doing so is in no way, shape or form indicates superiority to anyone in the PI or elsewhere.  The _art within my art_ is now _the art of my art._  So i don't _follow_ any of the Modern Arnis practitioners; you, Tim, Randi, Jeff, Kelly, C. Vasquez and so on.



> *You turn to Ted Buot of Balintawak, because it was a core art of Modern Arnis - so why not go to the Masters that know the Modern Arnis of that time and also of later times - the 8th Dans.*



A) to study the roots of my teacher and B) Detroit is far closer to me than the PI.  It is a decision of time and finances.  I feel I can understand many of the things my teacher _*did*_ by a study of his roots.  



> *It wil be nice to talk face to face without the stupid keyboard in between.*



*Yes!*

Yours,
Dan


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## thekuntawman (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I can see what you are saying. And, who knows what will happend in terms of uniting in the future?
> 
> I will say, that it is one thing to unite "with" someone, like modern arnisadors in the PI. It is another to be "under" someone. "With" allows people to be free to move in the direction they want. "Under" does not give them that freedom.
> ...



paul why dont you give it a chance. filipinos are not like japanese teachers who say you HAVE to do it this way or that way. many of them have there own style, they just have there own style UNDER REMY PRESAS. isnt that the same as here?

being under doesnt mean you have to throw away your knowledge. did remy make you throw away your old arts? no! being "under" somebody only means you belong to the same martial arts family, and this older brother is "older" than you, and possible more knowledgeable ( i say possible, because older brother does not mean more knowledgeable, and it doesnt mean authority. it does mean been there longer, and deserves respect that older brothers get). if someone is too proud to admit, that there is a person who is older, or senior to him, well i have to tell that person to come down off that rock before the people laugh him off. that is an arrogant thing, to not want somebody to be older. it sounds like somebody needs some humilty. my mom use to say, never think your the best, because allah will always make somebody better (smarter, stronger, faster, better fighter, etc) than you, and he will always make somebody better than him to.

for the purpose of uniting and building a stronger family, there MUST be a dakilang guro, there must be punong guro, there must be juniors and students. now, you can have a lot of little organizations-some good, some suck, or you can have a strong BIG organization, and nobody sucks because each part looks out for the other one and teaches each other. its why filipino men like to have lots of kids, to make a big, strong family that takes care of each other. right now, it looks like the tae kwon do family, all over the place, nobody knows each other, but they have something in common, and you got a bunch who thinks he is the grandmaster.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *paul why dont you give it a chance. filipinos are not like japanese teachers who say you HAVE to do it this way or that way. many of them have there own style, they just have there own style UNDER REMY PRESAS. isnt that the same as here?
> 
> being under doesnt mean you have to throw away your knowledge. did remy make you throw away your old arts? no! being "under" somebody only means you belong to the same martial arts family, and this older brother is "older" than you, and possible more knowledgeable ( i say possible, because older brother does not mean more knowledgeable, and it doesnt mean authority. it does mean been there longer, and deserves respect that older brothers get). *



Kuntawman,

*Excellent* clarification!  You have brought something to light that only a Filipino could have.  I learned something today.  This gives us westerners a bit of food for thought.  Thanks!

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cebu West (Jun 9, 2003)

There have been many excellent points made here and I do believe a unified Modern Arnis in some form would be good, however the main blockade to this is the fact that for 95% or more of American Modern Arnis practitioners whether old or new, students are not capable of getting to the PI to see, meet or train with the old masters. So distance is a key factor here. Dieter has been to the PI recently and I believe Kelly was also and Tim is going next summer. Some others have been there as well but very few. If some of these masters were available to us here in the USA and Europe I think it would be a much different story. Many would seek them out for training.
This did not happen with MARPPIO I think because of the timing involved and the turmoil that ensued following the Professor's passing. Just like anything else timing can be everything. Who knows, maybe in the near future as the leaders of the different organizations get to meet people from the PI, things will become closer. I don't think we disrespect these people, we just don't know them or have access to them. 
If we had Star Trek tellaporters all are problems would be solved. 

SAL   :asian:


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## Guro Harold (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *being under doesnt mean you have to throw away your knowledge. did remy make you throw away your old arts? no! being "under" somebody only means you belong to the same martial arts family, and this older brother is "older" than you, and possible more knowledgeable ( i say possible, because older brother does not mean more knowledgeable, and it doesnt mean authority. it does mean been there longer, and deserves respect that older brothers get). if someone is too proud to admit, that there is a person who is older, or senior to him, well i have to tell that person to come down off that rock before the people laugh him off. that is an arrogant thing, to not want somebody to be older.*



To the thekuntawman:

Well said!!!

I think that we can learn a tremendous amount from the masters from the PI.  I was greatly impressed by Rodel Dagooc when I trained with MARPPIO!  Just for balance, just think about this... in the arts or science, we tend to appreciate the works of the innovator that have stood the test of time alot more than the last things that they were tinkering with.


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## arnisador (Jun 9, 2003)

What does 'dakilang guro' mean?

I understand 'punong guro' to mean something like 'teacher of teachers'.


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## Dieter (Jun 10, 2003)

> paul why dont you give it a chance. filipinos are not like japanese teachers who say you HAVE to do it this way or that way. many of them have there own style, they just have there own style UNDER REMY PRESAS. isnt that the same as here?
> Being under doesnt mean you have to throw away your knowledge. did remy make you throw away your old arts? no! being "under" somebody only means you belong to the same martial arts family, and this older brother is "older" than you, and possible more knowledgeable ( i say possible, because older brother does not mean more knowledgeable, and it doesnt mean authority. it does mean been there longer, and deserves respect that older brothers get)



Hi Kuntawman

This is EXACTLY what I ment by  all the Modern Arnis organisations should join under an umbrella organisation headed by the "board of the elders" in the Philippines.
Guidance, assistance and the knowledge to belong to one strong group and not only to a splinter-organisation.
Especially you americans did learn so much from Remy, that you don´t need one of them around all the time. Technically you can stand on your own feet, als you do, but still it would be a sign in the right direction.
Make one or 2 seminar tours with one or two of them a year, where they visit different areas of the US and different association/groups and see what they have to offer. Not all of them are the same. Everyone has something different. Accept, what they want to share. The are not in for domiating anybody or any organisation. Give it  a thought.
This concept would make it affordable and would be a step into unity.

Thanks Kuntawman to put it in better words that I could.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## moromoro (Jun 10, 2003)

hi dieter



> There are higher Masters/Grandmasters in the Philippines who can promote the people who deserve it in a serious and honest way.



yes, i think that should be as a sign of respect that practitioners shold look to their seniors in the art.

if theres one thing people should take away from PILIPINO culture in learning eskrima, it is respect to our seniors. This is very evident in our culture.

thanks

terry


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## dearnis.com (Jun 10, 2003)

Organizations....
A number of good points here.  From an American point of view please remeber that most American martial artists are suspicious of organizations because they USUALLY exist to take money from you and offer very little in return.  As the American Modern Arnis world shakes out and the groups consolidate people are choosing sides based, in part, on "what can this group do for me vs. what will it cost."  Sad, perhaps, but taht is the way of American martial arts.  (Look at taekwon-do for an examplel not knocking the art, just its politics).
Would a senior council be a bad thing...maybe not.  I dont know.  I suspect that Modern Arnis will evolve two distinct branches; an American version and a Phillipine version.  This is not necessarily a bad thing; just the natural evolution of the art in a new environment.  
As far as respect for the elders in Modern Arnis, or FMA generally, no one is deliberately trying to be disrespectful to anyone.  As regards the seniors overseas, for the most part we don't know who they are.  Is that bad; sure; they are our brothers in the art and we should know a bit about them, but as noted above, few people have the opportunity to travel and train.
Also, do not mistake typical American questioning for disrespect.  If we don't know who someone is we will ask a LOT of blunt questions to find out.  This might be part of the issue; I understand that confronting a person bluntly if quite rude in Filipino culture, where it is a given in the states.
Bottom line is that many of us are trying to preserve and develop the art as best we can, and it will take time for the best way to become apparent.
Chad


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## Cruentus (Jun 10, 2003)

Kuntawman...

What you described is more of a "working with" rather then a "working under" in my opinion. And, I see no problem with that!  

I will say, as Chad explained, that I am very cynical when it comes to organizations for the reasons he explained. "What's you motive" or "what are you trying to take from me" is my first questions to someone who wants to "lead" me anywhere.

I think that it would be nice to have a "Modern Arnis Council" where leaders of the art from the PI and around the world could meet either yearly, or even bi-yearly, to discuss and come to agreements regarding the art. And of course, elders and seniors would and should be respected. 

The idea of a "Council" rather then 1 umbrella organization seems to fit in with what Kuntawman described. Perhaps someday we will get to that point.


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## DoctorB (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *What does 'dakilang guro' mean?
> 
> I understand 'punong guro' to mean something like 'teacher of teachers'. *



"Punong Guro" actually translates as "Senior Teacher".  A PG can be viewed as being 2nd to the system GM or perhaps the GM.

Dr. Barber


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## DoctorB (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Kuntawman...
> 
> What you described is more of a "working with" rather then a "working under" in my opinion. And, I see no problem with that!
> ...



Paul, 

Please excuse me if I also seem to be just a bit cynical.  Here we are talking about a "Modern Arnis Council" when a good number of people can't even get their heads wrapped around the notion of a "Symposium" where ideas, techniques and training methods are going to be exchanged.

I have no doubt that there are some very good to excellent Modern Arnis Players in the Philippines regardless of whether or not Professor went back and conducted some training courses;
however, my own arnis program is set up to meet American needs and cultural conditions.  I designed my program to fit the needs of my students in the USA in generaal and New York State in particular.  

My program would not necessarily fit into the larger Filipino culture and most certinly it would not fit into some sub-cultural settings.  This is not a matter of good or bad.  It is a matter of reality and cultural needs.  

Would I be willing to train with and learn more from Filipino instructors?  Yes I would.  The other side of the question is 
would these same Filipino Instructors be willing to study and learn from me?  That question is one that I can not answer.

I do know this, when I first formed the Independent Filipino Escrima/Arnis Associates and opened my website in 1995, I always had problems with some Filipinos who resented me 
using the word "Filipino" in my title.  I used that word to represent a collective acknowledgement of my Filipino Instructors, Remy Presas, Bobby Taboada and Eddie Lastra.  In 1997, I removed "Filipino" from the organizational title because I got tired of answering nasty e-mails accusing me of being a "Greedy American white boy...   

Dieter, you can go where ever you want and join as you will, but nationality and paper rank is not what impresses me.  I look for skill, teaching ability, personality and manners.  I am not opposed to a Modern Arnis Council, but I would have to see how it was organized and what the by-laws stated.

Dr. Barber


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## Cruentus (Jun 10, 2003)

I understand your cynicism;

I am cynical too. Remember, I did say "someday."

Oh....and the "greedy american white boy" comment was one of the funniest things I've heard all day! :rofl: :rofl:


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## thekuntawman (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *What does 'dakilang guro' mean?
> 
> I understand 'punong guro' to mean something like 'teacher of teachers'. *



dakilang is like a well respected man, i heard ernesto presas say you should not call the oldest men, just a guro, but to show more respect, he says  dakilang guro.


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## thekuntawman (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *In 1997, I removed "Filipino" from the organizational title because I got tired of answering nasty e-mails accusing me of being a "Greedy American white boy...
> 
> 
> ...



so i was right about you, docB, you are greedy


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## Dieter (Jun 10, 2003)

Dr. B



> Dieter, you can go where ever you want and join as you will, but nationality and paper rank is not what impresses me. I look for skill, teaching ability, personality and manners.



Hi Jerome,

I don´t know if I might misinterpret your sentence, but why this agression?

I just try to develop a vision, how to make Modern Arnis a stronger by coming closer together, where I see the symposium as a good step in the right direction, and not making it weaker by splitting up more and more.

Why not dreaming or brainstorming different possibilities or even dreaming the impossible?


Regards


Dieter


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *...I got tired of answering nasty e-mails accusing me of being a "Greedy American white boy...
> 
> Dr. Barber *



Jerome,

I thought you *are* american?   

Yours,
Dan


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## DoctorB (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *so i was right about you, docB, you are greedy  *



To put things into perspective for you, Kuntawman, I DO NOT CHARGE the students are Erie Community College for their lessons.  They pay the college tuition and I am salaried at the college.  I do charge my off campus club memebrs - all 9 of them - the prevailing rate for this area.  If I were to rely on the club to eat well daily, I would be starving right now.

When your fellow countrymen accused me of being both greedy and a typical American White Boy, they were writing blindly, as well as showing a great deal of arrogance, stupidity and bias.
If I were to judge all Filipinos by the standards shown through those e-mail, I would have nothing to do with you or anyone else who is Filipino.  You have come very close to joining that group of people, regardless of nationality, religion, ethnicity or race, whom I have placed on my list to be ignored.

We have exchanged some emails in the past and we have both agreed and disagreed on different matters.  That is fine with me and in the spirit of idea excahnges.  But you do not know me or my circumstances well enough to make a substanial case for alleging greed.  Be much more careful in your public comments to me.

I have never branded you in any manner and I fully expect the same level of respect in return.  As I posted elsewhere on another thread, I judge people by their skills, personality and manners.  You are sorely lacking in the third area with your quoted remark above.  And wasn't it one of my instructors, Billy Bryant, who got you back into your family and cultural arts.... was he a greedy American White Boy, also?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoctorB _
> *And wasn't it Billy Bryant who got you back into your family and cultural arts.... was he a greedy American White Boy?
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D. *



Jerome,

By the fact you haven't answered *my* post above, I have to conclude that you _aren't_ American.  

Extrapolating from my above sentence, I will conclude that Billy Bryant is not American as well.

I'm crushed.  :uhoh: 

Sorrowfully Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - for any of you who may be concerned by this recent turn of events and new discoveries, I *am* American.


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## thekuntawman (Jun 12, 2003)

docB,

when i said you were greedy, i was joking, thats why i put the smily thing. i dont think that about you at all. i also dont think you are a "white boy" sorry for that confusion. 

but no, billy didnt get me "back" into the philippine martial arts. but he did show me how popular they are, because at the time i met him, i was more interested in learning kung fu and competition fighting. when he convince me to start teaching the filipino arts, i was teaching point fighting in a commercial karate school. but thanks for reminding me, that i almost forgot it was billy bryant who convinced me to open a philippine martial arts school.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *hi dieter
> 
> 
> ...




Terry,

I am very confused about this comment.

I have always tried to show respect to those older, an those who have trained longer or both. :asian:

And,  I believe it is ok to disagree respectfully, which I have with many. I respect The Kuntawman a lot for our disagreements, for it has enlightened me, and I have also been able to make a point or two to him and others as well. 


Yet, I believe that I am older than you are. I believe that I have been training in some form of art longer than you also. As has many on this board. Yet, you state that your intention was to join this board to insult people and to insult Senior and Masters as a goal. You also state that fighting is the end all, and teaching does not matter, yet as Dan Anderson has stated, then how do the fighters learn? How do they learn the respect? It is just born into them? 

I have never one said a bad thing about GM Navarro or GM Abrian. I have mentioned that the term moro can have more than one meaning. And you did state that it was a word of Joy and Pride for you and your instructor, I accepted this.

Yet, I do feel you have accepted, this poor little round eye or other round eyes, to have talent, skill, or knowledge. 

So, when you spout comments like this, it is hard for me to believe that you are being honest.

If the Kuntawman or others were to say this then  I would believe them, and respect them for their words, even if we have differed in opinion. For in their actions even in the differences, they have also shown respect.

One of the first things I discussed with Manong (GM) Ted Buot was if his children had trained and if they were still training.

From your attitude, posts and from other people who I have met I can see that many a Filipino is not happy with a Round eye White boy studying your art or an art of the PI. So, this was not meant to be dis-respectful just a comment, on how I see things, and how yours and others comments come across. Do I think you will change? Nope. Do I care for you to change, maybe a little. Just show some respect as you yourself stated, even if it is the respect to agree to disagree.


 :asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 12, 2003)

Terry,
Could you supply us with some information?  How old are you, how long have you been training and in what arts?

Thanks,
Dan Anderson


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## moromoro (Jun 13, 2003)

hi Rich


Yes i will try to explain this. It is always good to show this kind of respect, and in our culture this respect is always reserved to older people. If your both relatively young theres no need to show any kind of special respect due to age and seniority only the common courtesy of respect each other as individuals....




> I have always tried to show respect to those older, an those who have trained longer or both.



this is a good attitude to have......i believe this is the way also. 
But unfortunately in the FMA (in the philippines anyway) there is not much respecting going on between styles,,,
look rich i dont care where your from as long as you got the right intentions in the FMA.....


hi dan

yes i have been training in eskrima since 1986 actually this month marks my 17 years in eskrima......To this day i still train 4- 5 times a week with GM Navarro one on one..

i have been training in muay thai since 1994 non stop to this day..
i train with Dan Blake (a old friend) who is also the assistant trainer of MARK HUNT K1 Champ 2001 (look at hunt vs Crocop fight last year he was in the corner)

Also since 1994 non stop to this day i started training in MMA with a japanese instructor who has been in several MMA fights in japan (known as submission arts wrestling) that was along with my jujutsu as well since 1994......
i have always trained with the sole goal to improve my fighting ability only...... 
i am also learning KULAM as well....(just recently)
Yes Dan i will be 24 on the day of the saints this year nov1...
get in touch with me 

kamagong@eudoramail.com


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 13, 2003)

Terry,

Thanks for the data.  Now I can tell why you're so outspoken.  You are also a Scorpio (mine is on the 18th of November).

Yours,
Dan


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## DoctorB (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *docB,
> 
> when i said you were greedy, i was joking, thats why i put the smily thing. i dont think that about you at all. i also dont think you are a "white boy" sorry for that confusion.
> ...



Sorry, Kuntawman, too many post read and too many hot button issues.  My errors.  Thanks for the kick to the head.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *hi Rich
> 
> . . .
> ...



Hi Terry,

Thank you for the reply.

Yes, I understand the fact that the different styles have different respect levels for each other. Maybe this accounts for some of the different stories or histories told here in the WEST, by the Filipino Masters themsleves.





> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *
> look rich i dont care where your from as long as you got the right intentions in the FMA.....
> 
> *



Terry, this makes sense, yet with your comment about ALL USA or Western FMA being sub standard, and only by going to the PI can we learn the 'Real' Art or the real deal you make it sound like, if you are not a Filipino training in the PI then you are nothing.

Now, if you are a proud nationalist, and want to scream at the top of your lungs about your Culture and heritage and arts, ten this is fine. Yet, if you scream and insult others at the same time as opposed to bringing forth strengths, but only pointing out negaitives, can cause a bad impression. Do, I personally care what you think of me? Nope, yet I do try to present myself as a positive member and to allow others their point of view especially if it differs from my own. Yet, I do not stanf still and take the constant barrage of insults and implied threats. These are the issues that cause my concern.

Continue to bring forth your opinion, just do make it sound like it is the only opinion of the FMA community.

Now, as to my intentions, I intend to teach and make sure my student(s) learn the real deal and nothing held back. If at some day, I gain the knowledge and respect for others to call me a master of the art, I will hopefully live up to their expectations.

Enjoy your Training - I enjoy mine, it is in my blood, as it is in yours. It takes a special type of person to train all the time and to go through the pain and frustration to learn and continue to improve. I believe i am one, and I expect that most of us here also fall into that catagory.

Peace


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## moromoro (Jun 13, 2003)

hi rich



> you are a proud nationalist, and want to scream at the top of your lungs about your Culture and heritage and arts, ten this is fine



iam not a nationalist, it is hard to be when you are from the Philippines.... all the different language groups and slightly different customs in each group.... 



> Continue to bring forth your opinion, just do make it sound like it is the only opinion of the FMA community.



i will do, byt i never realised that i made myself sound like it was the only opinion in the FMA... thats quite a big statement......



> Enjoy your Training - I enjoy mine, it is in my blood, as it is in yours. It takes a special type of person to train all the time and to go through the pain and frustration to learn and continue to improve. I believe i am one, and I expect that most of us here also fall into that catagory.



ohh yes the pain we gotta love the pain. although it doesnt happen too often anymore last month while sparring with GM Navarro real sticks garrote y daga he poped my middle finger fore knuckle i dropped my stick and looked at my hand, didnt make a fuss just said "****" he came towards me i thought he was going to look at it but the next thing i see was the stick comming for my head!!!! lucky i never dropped the smaller stick....

its things like these which make me love training....you know the feeling we all do........


peace

terry


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