# Unsure of the art taught at my dojo



## eiv0482 (Jun 16, 2020)

I've been practicing at this dojo for sometime over half a year now, but I'm still not sure what art is being taught. I know it is either karate or taekwondo, especially since I have heard those two terms being used in the dojo. We do practice many kicking techniques including spin kicks and such, but we also practice many open-handed techniques. Also, we practice joint manipulation, occasional groundwork, and kobudo katas (or forms, but since I've been leaning ever so slightly towards the idea of it being karate, I've been calling them katas; actually, both of those terms have been used in the dojo as well). We wear gis, but our sparring gear seems to be that of taekwondo gear, even though we spar with our hands up and other such things that would generally be seen in karate. 

     I don't know why it is so important for me to know the specific art I am practicing, but it just seems to feel somewhat unnerving to not be able to say for sure whether it is karate or taekwondo. This uncertainty may also make the dojo seem like a McDojo, but I actually do have confidence in this dojo and the instructors in it. I've definitely gone through some time periods in which I was seriously questioning the legitimacy of the dojo, but after consulting what made a dojo a real dojo, I found that it was making details that were actually insignificant to the training a bigger deal than they were. We are taught the application of all techniques, the instructors practice them with us and encourage us to ask about applications so they can allow us to understand them, and oftentimes, these explanations go into great depth (so end up lasting quite a while, although I'm not complaining because it's one of the things I love about being there).

     Anyways, with all that stuff being practiced in the dojo, would any of you be able to suggest what the art most likely is? And if you have any other advice, that would be greatly appreciated as well. I'm still a beginner so if anything I said sounds off, please let me know. Thanks!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 16, 2020)

Have you tried asking your instructor? That seems like a simple solution to all this.


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## eiv0482 (Jun 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Have you tried asking your instructor? That seems like a simple solution to all this.


Yeah, it would be. I'm a bit on the shy side in class so I guess I avoided asking about it. For some reason I guess someone saying that makes it pretty clear to myself I should have just asked a while ago. Thanks for solving an unnerving middle of the night thought of mine. (Man... it does seem really simple now. I've got a lot to learn lol. Thanks again, though.)


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2020)

If it's a commercial school, isn't there some sort of signage that might give you a hint?


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## eiv0482 (Jun 16, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> If it's a commercial school, isn't there some sort of signage that might give you a hint?


That's also a good point, but it doesn't mention or allude to anything that would be specific to either art, which could be because there are a few arts being taught at the dojo. I guess my main confusion came with how different people called what we're practicing different things, so I'll just ask our instructor (which as I said before, should have been done long ago lol). Thanks!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2020)

Most schools have a website, and that'll usually say what's being taught. An easy place to look is the instructor's bio - they frequently list every art they've studied.

It's possible what you're learning is an amalgamation of styles - essentially the instructor's personal system. They may not even have given it its own name, and just talk about elements that come from the base styles they studied.

And it's not necessarily that odd for a relatively new student to not know the name of the style they study, though it seems odd to those of us who trained where it's obvious. I used to not use the name of my style much in teaching, never really referring to the art as a whole. I started making a point to mention the art's name from time to time after a couple of students asked me to remind them what art we studied, because I mention other arts along the way as points of reference. The name isn't that important to some folks - it's just a way to refer to the art - sot they may not use it often.


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## wab25 (Jun 16, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> If it's a commercial school, isn't there some sort of signage that might give you a hint?


There is a dojo...? here that has only one word on its sign: "Karate" The main art taught there, the art that the owner is ranked in is TKD. They teach other arts there as well... a style of Kung Fu, Aikido and some sort of MMA class. What they do not teach there is Karate. I asked him why the sign said Karate, when they have never taught that and his response was "Everyone knows what Karate is, not many people know what TKD is." And this place is a commercial dojo, part of one of the larger organizations of TKD schools in the area.

Asking the instructor what the art is that he is teaching is the way to go. It may be his own blend of Karate and TKD and a few other things. As long as he is up front about that, and you enjoy the classes... nothing wrong there at all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2020)

eiv0482 said:


> That's also a good point, but it doesn't mention or allude to anything that would be specific to either art, which could be because there are a few arts being taught at the dojo. I guess my main confusion came with how different people called what we're practicing different things, so I'll just ask our instructor (which as I said before, should have been done long ago lol). Thanks!


Also, back in the day, Tae Kwon Do was often referred to as "Korean Karate", because people were familiar with the word "Karate". Some folks seem to still feel like that word is inclusive of TKD (which is arguable), so may use the terms somewhat interchangeably.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2020)

wab25 said:


> There is a dojo...? here that has only one word on its sign: "Karate" The main art taught there, the art that the owner is ranked in is TKD. They teach other arts there as well... a style of Kung Fu, Aikido and some sort of MMA class. What they do not teach there is Karate. I asked him why the sign said Karate, when they have never taught that and his response was "Everyone knows what Karate is, not many people know what TKD is." And this place is a commercial dojo, part of one of the larger organizations of TKD schools in the area.
> 
> Asking the instructor what the art is that he is teaching is the way to go. It may be his own blend of Karate and TKD and a few other things. As long as he is up front about that, and you enjoy the classes... nothing wrong there at all.



I agree with the idea of asking. Asking is always good.
However, the person you reference above is just plain wrong. TKD is the #1 most commonly practiced martial art in the world. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone with even the most remote interest in the martial arts who wouldn't recognize the name.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 16, 2020)

When i trained kenpo/kempo, i always referred to it as karate. It was just easier, and if the person knew enough to ask, then I'd clarify. Hell, when I'd go to jujitsu or sambo practice, if someone asked me what i was doing that day, I'd still just say karate.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 16, 2020)

G'day! Ah that is an interesting dilemma! If it's a bit late asking what the style is, I'd ask the instructor more about "what would you say the lineage of the style is? Is it more a pure form or a mix.. What are the main style influences?" etc

That way you're not outright asking what the style is if that feels awkward, but it should hopefully be revealed in the process


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## JR 137 (Jun 16, 2020)

A link to the school’s website could also help us help you.


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## Danny T (Jun 16, 2020)

Almost all of the kids and parents who train with us call it 'Karate'.  
We have training in Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Pekiti-Tirsia, Boxing, Combat Submission Wrestling, BJJ, and train Muay Thai & MMA fighters. The kids program is a combination of Muay Thai, Combat Submission Wrestling, and Pekiti-Tirsia specifically. We did have a Youth Shotokan class for a short time but haven't for almost 10 years now. We call everything we do 'Martial Arts' but almost everyone with the youth programs call it 'Karate'. One of the most often questions..."what's the difference in Martial Arts and Karate?"


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## jobo (Jun 16, 2020)

eiv0482 said:


> I've been practicing at this dojo for sometime over half a year now, but I'm still not sure what art is being taught. I know it is either karate or taekwondo, especially since I have heard those two terms being used in the dojo. We do practice many kicking techniques including spin kicks and such, but we also practice many open-handed techniques. Also, we practice joint manipulation, occasional groundwork, and kobudo katas (or forms, but since I've been leaning ever so slightly towards the idea of it being karate, I've been calling them katas; actually, both of those terms have been used in the dojo as well). We wear gis, but our sparring gear seems to be that of taekwondo gear, even though we spar with our hands up and other such things that would generally be seen in karate.
> 
> I don't know why it is so important for me to know the specific art I am practicing, but it just seems to feel somewhat unnerving to not be able to say for sure whether it is karate or taekwondo. This uncertainty may also make the dojo seem like a McDojo, but I actually do have confidence in this dojo and the instructors in it. I've definitely gone through some time periods in which I was seriously questioning the legitimacy of the dojo, but after consulting what made a dojo a real dojo, I found that it was making details that were actually insignificant to the training a bigger deal than they were. We are taught the application of all techniques, the instructors practice them with us and encourage us to ask about applications so they can allow us to understand them, and oftentimes, these explanations go into great depth (so end up lasting quite a while, although I'm not complaining because it's one of the things I love about being there).
> 
> Anyways, with all that stuff being practiced in the dojo, would any of you be able to suggest what the art most likely is? And if you have any other advice, that would be greatly appreciated as well. I'm still a beginner so if anything I said sounds off, please let me know. Thanks!


 to be honest it sounds like a wind up, im not sure how anyone signs up for a ma and attends multiple lessons with out having the first idea of what they are training ?


not that it actually matters, it could be some home spun hybrid thats a bit of lots of thing, which is perfectly good if they have picked the best bits and a total disaster if they haven't


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jun 16, 2020)

Dont hesitate to ask your instructor what kind of Martial they do you will know if its karate or taekwondo or kung fu

In japanese Martial art they always use shomine rei and Osu they used japanese term like Kibadachi or mawashi geri thats Japanese 

In korean they used chariot kunyai jumbi 

But you will know the difference


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## Buka (Jun 16, 2020)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Eiv0482.



 

For sale by owner. Call me.


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## eiv0482 (Jun 16, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> G'day! Ah that is an interesting dilemma! If it's a bit late asking what the style is, I'd ask the instructor more about "what would you say the lineage of the style is? Is it more a pure form or a mix.. What are the main style influences?" etc
> 
> That way you're not outright asking what the style is if that feels awkward, but it should hopefully be revealed in the process


Oh yeah, that's a good idea. I'll do that. Thank you!


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## Headhunter (Jun 16, 2020)

If you want to know ask. But really does it matter? If you’re enjoying the class and you’re learning good stuff it doesn’t matter what label you give it. You can call it mickey mouses karate Kung fu maga Jitsu class with sensei goofy but as long as you like it it doesn’t matter


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## Bruce7 (Jun 16, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I agree with the idea of asking. Asking is always good.
> However, the person you reference above is just plain wrong. TKD is the #1 most commonly practiced martial art in the world. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone with even the most remote interest in the martial arts who wouldn't recognize the name.



In the 60's and 70's most TKD schools put karate sign out front, because people had hear of karate and few people had hear of TKD.
in the 80's because of the Karate Kid most people call any MAs karate.
True ,TKD is the #1 most commonly practiced martial art in the world, but most people don't know MA and call every MA karate.


Now that I am training in karate, I think of tradional TKD as Korean Karate.
I know those who study TKD will think this is blasphem, I would have,
but when talking to normal people about MA it is so much easier.


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## Michael Shayne (Jun 16, 2020)

Really, simply ask the instructor. Its not the name that you need, it is the courage to sit on your own mental throne, ask and you will know the name, but more importantly you will have conquered a fear.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 16, 2020)

wab25 said:


> There is a dojo...? here that has only one word on its sign: "Karate" The main art taught there, the art that the owner is ranked in is TKD. They teach other arts there as well... a style of Kung Fu, Aikido and some sort of MMA class. What they do not teach there is Karate. I asked him why the sign said Karate, when they have never taught that and his response was "Everyone knows what Karate is, not many people know what TKD is." And this place is a commercial dojo, part of one of the larger organizations of TKD schools in the area.
> 
> Asking the instructor what the art is that he is teaching is the way to go. It may be his own blend of Karate and TKD and a few other things. As long as he is up front about that, and you enjoy the classes... nothing wrong there at all.



i am surprised the OP has not asked the owner, instructors, or fellow students.  That is something that is most often asked before signing up and paying money.  But I accept the OP may be a bit shy.

I agree with others who have said if what they are being taught are viable self defense moves and being taught in when and how to use them, and the OP enjoys them, stay with it.




Bruce7 said:


> In the 60's and 70's most TKD schools put karate sign out front, because people had hear of karate and few people had hear of TKD.
> in the 80's because of the Karate Kid most people call any MAs karate.
> True ,TKD is the #1 most commonly practiced martial art in the world, but most people don't know MA and call every MA karate.
> 
> ...



When I studied TKD in the early mid-sixties, we knew what we were learning, but admitted when we talked to outsiders we usually told them we studied TKD, and waited for them to ask if they didn't know what that art was; that it was sort of like a Korean karate, but different.  TKD just wasn't a well known art at that time.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, Eiv0482.
> 
> 
> View attachment 22895
> ...



@Buka

I am really surprised at you.  That is one of the oldest scams in the book; trying to sell properly that I have had title to for several years (and did I get it for a bargain
!)

Be assured my lawyer will be in touch with you just as soon as he is re-admitted to his State's bar.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 16, 2020)

wab25 said:


> It may be his own blend of Karate and TKD and a few other things.


This came across my mind as well.  I know there are a few instructors who like to teach more than one system and because of that they don't give a specific name to what they teach.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, Eiv0482.
> 
> 
> View attachment 22895
> ...


Is that bridge still for sale?  2nd time in one day that I saw someone selling a bridge.  Must be a good market.  lol.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 17, 2020)

Athooooough... it could be fun, the OP dropping hints as to things they do in class, and us having to guess the style...

Winner gets a prize too?!? : O

(Of course the OP has to know the style first before we can guess the right answer...)

Mods!


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 17, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Athooooough... it could be fun, the OP dropping hints as to things they do in class, and us having to guess the style...
> 
> Winner gets a prize too?!? : O
> 
> ...


I'm at a total disadvantage for a game like that lol


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## Cynik75 (Jun 17, 2020)

Do not ask the instructor!!! 
Be like ninja and secretly in the dark night enter the dojo and find the hidden safe room with ancient papers... Then you will know the true.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2020)

God I hope it is cobra kai.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 17, 2020)

Always amuses me how some places dont publically list what martial art they do, or its not clearly stated.    Like they would just be under the name "karate" and make no mention to waht style is taught, and sometimes the head teacher has several martial arts under his belt and the like.    I dont know why you wouldnt state what style of soemthing you do to be honest.    Its always a chuckler for me.  



drop bear said:


> God I hope it is cobra kai.



That is probbly why they dont list it, Karate Kid has made that style unpopular as all hell.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2020)

jobo said:


> to be honest it sounds like a wind up, im not sure how anyone signs up for a ma and attends multiple lessons with out having the first idea of what they are training ?
> 
> 
> not that it actually matters, it could be some home spun hybrid thats a bit of lots of thing, which is perfectly good if they have picked the best bits and a total disaster if they haven't


For folks with no background in MA, the names sometimes just don’t have meaning, so aren’t really retained from the early discussions (which are like a fire hose to the new student). It’s common enough that some places include knowing the name of the style on the first test.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> Always amuses me how some places dont publically list what martial art they do, or its not clearly stated.    Like they would just be under the name "karate" and make no mention to waht style is taught, and sometimes the head teacher has several martial arts under his belt and the like.    I dont know why you wouldnt state what style of soemthing you do to be honest.    Its always a chuckler for me.
> 
> 
> 
> That is probbly why they dont list it, Karate Kid has made that style unpopular as all hell.


In some cases, the name isn’t all that useful or relevant. I list the primary art on my website, but if anything it creates more confusion. Most folks get no information from the name, most martial artists mistake it for another (related) art, and even folks from the same base art expect something different from my approach. I should probably come up with a new style name, but then that’d mean nothing to anyone.


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## jobo (Jun 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> For folks with no background in MA, the names sometimes just don’t have meaning, so aren’t really retained from the early discussions (which are like a fire hose to the new student). It’s common enough that some places include knowing the name of the style on the first test.


yea maybe, ive met people who dont know the make of their car, , when asked they just say its a blue one,so its possible i suppose


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## _Simon_ (Jun 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> For folks with no background in MA, the names sometimes just don’t have meaning, so aren’t really retained from the early discussions (which are like a fire hose to the new student). It’s common enough that some places include knowing the name of the style on the first test.



Yes! Or he may have to wait until if in one of the senior gradings where he has to write a paper... "What is the philosophy of ______?" "How has training in ______ impacted your life?"

So another 4 or 5 years or so and he'll find out the name.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> In some cases, the name isn’t all that useful or relevant. I list the primary art on my website, but if anything it creates more confusion. Most folks get no information from the name, most martial artists mistake it for another (related) art, and even folks from the same base art expect something different from my approach. I should probably come up with a new style name, but then that’d mean nothing to anyone.



For me it would be something like, say i wanted to do the specfic type of karate mixed with Jujitsu and i got kykoshin instead, it would be a issue.   Or vice versa, but most of the time from what i have seen its just hard to find.  Its usually the indepednent styles that tend to nt clearly mark theirs.  Or their style is their school name but you dont know its independent thus think its a school name.

The issue would lie in, i could be telling people i am doing kykoshin thinking it is, but im not, and might only figure it out if i go to another kyokoshin school. Or another karate school.


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## jobo (Jun 17, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yes! Or he may have to wait until if in one of the senior gradings where he has to write a paper... "What is the philosophy of ______?" "How has training in ______ impacted your life?"
> 
> So another 4 or 5 years or so and he'll find out the name.


its things like that that leave me confused and baffled, what possible criteria is that to establish someone ability at something other than writing, im struggling to think of any other sport or physical activity that includes a written test on how guitar playing, snooker, boxing, dancing etal has changed my life ???

some things do have a written test, but they are specific questions about the skill rather than general waffle


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 17, 2020)

jobo said:


> its things like that that leave me confused and baffled, what possible criteria is that to establish someone ability at something other than writing, im struggling to think of any other sport or physical activity that includes a written test on how guitar playing, snooker, boxing, dancing etal has changed my life ???
> 
> some things do have a written test, but they are specific questions about the skill rather than general waffle



Wait until you do all of those academically.      There are some units for X in history.  which is basically history through the lense of X.    That does seem like a very academic study question to give you a appreciation of the subject.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 17, 2020)

jobo said:


> its things like that that leave me confused and baffled, what possible criteria is that to establish someone ability at something other than writing, im struggling to think of any other sport or physical activity that includes a written test on how guitar playing, snooker, boxing, dancing etal has changed my life ???
> 
> some things do have a written test, but they are specific questions about the skill rather than general waffle


Yeah I know what you mean. My understanding is that it's not like a paper that gets marked, ie it's not the writing style, grammar etc being looked at, but just their general understanding of the art, and what it means to them.

I like it in that regard, takes it from being an specifically objective grading with set criteria, to something more intimate and meaningful to the person . That being said, I don't know if you can fail the written portion or how it's marked or even whether the only requirement is that you complete it..


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## jobo (Jun 17, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah I know what you mean. My understanding is that it's not like a paper that gets marked, ie it's not the writing style, grammar etc being looked at, but just their general understanding of the art, and what it means to them.
> 
> I like it in that regard, takes it from being an specifically objective grading with set criteria, to something more intimate and meaningful to the person . That being said, I don't know if you can fail the written portion or how it's marked or even whether the only requirement is that you complete it..


well if its not marked or so beady written it is largely meaningless then its an even worse imposition on your time. what if its written in french or Cantonese

im wondering if you tell the truth thats is then held against your grading

so if you say its had absolutely no positive benefits to me other than fitness, say or if you says yea its great i keep beating people up at the least excuse, lieing shouldn't be a requirement !


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## jobo (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> Wait until you do all of those academically.      There are some units for X in history.  which is basically history through the lense of X.    That does seem like a very academic study question to give you a appreciation of the subject.


its not something i would get involved in, i just want to able to hit people, but fine a study of the history of the art, i can see the point off.

but then its clearly a problem to people with dyslexia or learning difficulties or who dont use English and its still not a personal retrospective of hows its changed your life


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## _Simon_ (Jun 17, 2020)

jobo said:


> well if its not marked or so beady written it is largely meaningless then its an even worse imposition on your time. what if its written in french or Cantonese
> 
> im wondering if you tell the truth thats is then held against your grading
> 
> so if you say its had absolutely no positive benefits to me other than fitness, say or if you says yea its great i keep beating people up at the least excuse, lieing shouldn't be a requirement !



Yeah fair enough I get what you mean. I think the point of it is just to engage a different part of the brain, to go from all physical grading to more reflective and internal, to see what you've gained from it and reflect on that. And true, not everyone is the same as to why they train.

But I don't feel it's meaningless, just presenting another challenge to the student to actually think about their art (it's possible many train and don't really stop to ponder on it). It may be more a TMA thing, which alot of them do include dojo kuns (oaths/tenets), etiquette and have a different dimension of meaning to their practice.

But yeah I wouldn't want lying to be a requirement either haha


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> Always amuses me how some places dont publically list what martial art they do, or its not clearly stated.    Like they would just be under the name "karate" and make no mention to waht style is taught, and sometimes the head teacher has several martial arts under his belt and the like.    I dont know why you wouldnt state what style of soemthing you do to be honest.    Its always a chuckler for me.
> 
> 
> 
> That is probbly why they dont list it, Karate Kid has made that style unpopular as all hell.



I can see why they'd do that, if they're trying to appeal to someone like you that doesn't (and never has) train in any martial art. Advertising for the completely ignorant makes using generic terms sensible.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I can see why they'd do that, if they're trying to appeal to someone like you that doesn't (and never has) train in any martial art. Advertising for the completely ignorant makes using generic terms sensible.



You disagree with this, Rat? So you think someone who has never trained at all is going to have as much knowledge as someone who has trained? I think that tells us something important.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 17, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I can see why they'd do that, if they're trying to appeal to someone like you that doesn't (and never has) train in any martial art. Advertising for the completely ignorant makes using generic terms sensible.



I dont see how that translates to what i wrote and the follow up with Gpseymour.   And that is also conjecture my good man.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> I dont see how that translates to what i wrote and the follow up with Gpseymour.   And that is also conjecture my good man.



Not really. We know you don't train, you've admitted as much. Which speaks to your credibility when you express an opinion. I've never trained as a pilot. So if I were to offer an opinion on things relating to flying, there's a good chance I'd say something stupid. And certainly anyone taking my advice would be a fool.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 17, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> You disagree with this, Rat? So you think someone who has never trained at all is going to have as much knowledge as someone who has trained? I think that tells us something important.



I was writing the rebutal to it for why i "disagree" with it.   You jumped the gun.  (to which now i ironically did while replying to that one)


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 17, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. We know you don't train, you've admitted as much. Which speaks to your credibility when you express an opinion. I've never trained as a pilot. So if I were to offer an opinion on things relating to flying, there's a good chance I'd say something stupid. And certainly anyone taking my advice would be a fool.



Yes it is.    I have stated (and evidence backs me up if anyone can be bothered to track back)   I used to do X style (not important which), havent done in it in a peroid of time and have slowly started getting back into doing Y style.  Cherry picking my posts either unintetionally or intentially doesnt help this. 

We do have one agreement, if you baslessly take somones advice you are indeed a fool.  Let alone if you have zero rapport or a means to hold them accountable if they conned you.


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## Headhunter (Jun 17, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. We know you don't train, you've admitted as much. Which speaks to your credibility when you express an opinion. I've never trained as a pilot. So if I were to offer an opinion on things relating to flying, there's a good chance I'd say something stupid. And certainly anyone taking my advice would be a fool.


Hey don’t say that,.,.hes a black belt in YouTube and google....but yes agreed rat trying to talk to us about martial arts is like me trying to tell Neil Armstrong about what going to space is like


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## Headhunter (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> Always amuses me how some places dont publically list what martial art they do, or its not clearly stated.    Like they





Rat said:


> I have stated (and evidence backs me up if anyone can be bothered to track back)   I used to do X style (not important which),.



lol practice what you preach rat. Call out people for not saying what style they train. Yet you do the same thing in the same conversation.....


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> For me it would be something like, say i wanted to do the specfic type of karate mixed with Jujitsu and i got kykoshin instead, it would be a issue.   Or vice versa, but most of the time from what i have seen its just hard to find.  Its usually the indepednent styles that tend to nt clearly mark theirs.  Or their style is their school name but you dont know its independent thus think its a school name.
> 
> The issue would lie in, i could be telling people i am doing kykoshin thinking it is, but im not, and might only figure it out if i go to another kyokoshin school. Or another karate school.


Most folks won’t know other styles, and if they do, they’re unlikely to spontaneously decide some random style is what’s being taught.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2020)

jobo said:


> its things like that that leave me confused and baffled, what possible criteria is that to establish someone ability at something other than writing, im struggling to think of any other sport or physical activity that includes a written test on how guitar playing, snooker, boxing, dancing etal has changed my life ???
> 
> some things do have a written test, but they are specific questions about the skill rather than general waffle


Some things in MA schools aren’t about fighting.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Most folks won’t know other styles, and if they do, they’re unlikely to spontaneously decide some random style is what’s being taught.



Fair enough.   If you are new the place not being open about what style is done doesnt help anything.    Like you might get all exicted about doing grappling because you thought it was the karate that is mixed with JJ and find out its just a kickboxing one.      Its usually just a lapse in design of website, like they forgot to put it on or something though.


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## jobo (Jun 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Some things in MA schools aren’t about fighting.


well clearly not, but then my guitar playing has very little to do with music,,but a dissertation on introspective issues isnt about anything at all but writing,

assuming there are no wrong answers, and totally bizarre if there is a right answer. that requires you not to actually espressos your feeling accurately

and what gives them the right to require you to reveal your emotions to them ?


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## Headhunter (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> Fair enough.   If you are new the place not being open about what style is done doesnt help anything.    Like you might get all exicted about doing grappling because you thought it was the karate that is mixed with JJ and find out its just a kickboxing one.      Its usually just a lapse in design of website, like they forgot to put it on or something though.


Based on what evidence that it’s a lapse in design?....

from my experience people who do that genuine about it. Like a karate style could have lots of bjj and wrestling in it but call it karate. That’s because the instructor is a karate guy mostly but has cross trained bjj and wrestling and put those into his own style and since the majority of his stuff is still karate he just calls it karate


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2020)

eiv0482 said:


> I've been practicing at this dojo for sometime over half a year now, but I'm still not sure what art is being taught. I know it is either karate or taekwondo, especially since I have heard those two terms being used in the dojo. We do practice many kicking techniques including spin kicks and such, but we also practice many open-handed techniques. Also, we practice joint manipulation, occasional groundwork, and kobudo katas (or forms, but since I've been leaning ever so slightly towards the idea of it being karate, I've been calling them katas; actually, both of those terms have been used in the dojo as well). We wear gis, but our sparring gear seems to be that of taekwondo gear, even though we spar with our hands up and other such things that would generally be seen in karate.
> 
> I don't know why it is so important for me to know the specific art I am practicing, but it just seems to feel somewhat unnerving to not be able to say for sure whether it is karate or taekwondo. This uncertainty may also make the dojo seem like a McDojo, but I actually do have confidence in this dojo and the instructors in it. I've definitely gone through some time periods in which I was seriously questioning the legitimacy of the dojo, but after consulting what made a dojo a real dojo, I found that it was making details that were actually insignificant to the training a bigger deal than they were. We are taught the application of all techniques, the instructors practice them with us and encourage us to ask about applications so they can allow us to understand them, and oftentimes, these explanations go into great depth (so end up lasting quite a while, although I'm not complaining because it's one of the things I love about being there).
> 
> Anyways, with all that stuff being practiced in the dojo, would any of you be able to suggest what the art most likely is? And if you have any other advice, that would be greatly appreciated as well. I'm still a beginner so if anything I said sounds off, please let me know. Thanks!


I feel you.  My first experience with martial arts was a situation very similar to this.  My instructor was clearly skilled, but he was cagey about what he trained and where.  Can't know for sure what your situation is, but I think it's safe to say that you have to be able to trust your instructor.  If your gut tells you something is shifty, that nagging feeling won't go away.  Over the course of about a year, I learned enough to figure out what I liked and didn't like and ended up going to a different school in a different style.  Bottom line is that in an industry like Martial Arts, where there are no external, objective certifications or standards, a lack of transparency is concerning.  

As others have said, I think you need to ask some questions.  You don't have to be accusatory.  Just be curious.  "Hey, I was looking on the internet, and turns out there are a LOT of styles of karate.  What exactly are we learning?  When you trained TKD, was it WTF?  Did you compete?"   To be clear, I'm not recommending you interrogate the guy.  But there is nothing wrong with curiosity and interest.  And if he is cagey and evasive, that's a red flag.  

Is he awarding rank in a martial art?  If so, which style?  I mean, he might be awarding rank in his own style that he invented, which is often a red flag.  However, it's just as likely that he is perfectly competent to award rank in Karate and/or TKD.  So, you might be learning a bit of both, but are earning rank in one or the other. 

Are you proud to tell people where you train or what you're learning?  Would you recommend your school to a friend without reservation?  Because you should.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> Fair enough.   If you are new the place not being open about what style is done doesnt help anything.    Like you might get all exicted about doing grappling because you thought it was the karate that is mixed with JJ and find out its just a kickboxing one.      Its usually just a lapse in design of website, like they forgot to put it on or something though.


You’re still assuming they go in with a notion of what it is, but are wrong. Most folks either have no notion (they just like the idea of training MA), or are looking for some specific concept (grappling, ground work, self-defense orientation) and watch classes looking for that thing. A small number are looking for a specific art (whether they really know what it is or not), and they’ll usually ask about that pretty quickly.


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## Buka (Jun 17, 2020)

oftheherd1 said:


> @Buka
> 
> I am really surprised at you.  That is one of the oldest scams in the book; trying to sell properly that I have had title to for several years (and did I get it for a bargain
> !)
> ...






 

Here's my attorney. He'll have my people call your people.

(Quick, somebody get me some people!)


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2020)

Rat said:


> Fair enough.   If you are new the place not being open about what style is done doesnt help anything.    Like you might get all exicted about doing grappling because you thought it was the karate that is mixed with JJ and find out its just a kickboxing one.      Its usually just a lapse in design of website, like they forgot to put it on or something though.



Yeah. If the style is for example Cobra Kai. It is not that clear an indication of what that style actually is.

And if you wanted to super nerd it out there is debate on what style that was.

What style of karate is Cobra Kai karate based on in the original Karate Kid movie? - Quora


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You’re still assuming they go in with a notion of what it is, but are wrong. Most folks either have no notion (they just like the idea of training MA), or are looking for some specific concept (grappling, ground work, self-defense orientation) and watch classes looking for that thing. A small number are looking for a specific art (whether they really know what it is or not), and they’ll usually ask about that pretty quickly.


If I were a betting man, I'd wager that the vast majority of adults who get into martial arts fall into one of two categories.  They either trained as a child and are getting back into it, or they enroll their child in class and are roped into training as a family thing.

I think you're probably right that most folks don't have any idea what they're looking for.


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. If the style is for example Cobra Kai. It is not that clear an indication of what that style actually is.
> 
> And if you wanted to super nerd it out there is debate on what style that was.
> 
> What style of karate is Cobra Kai karate based on in the original Karate Kid movie? - Quora


Well, we know that they compete, and that it's very effective "on the street" and against any style... except for that one move that, if done correctly, no can defend.


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## Yokozuna514 (Jun 17, 2020)

The other obvious reason the OP may not know the style of MA he is doing is because he is training in an MMA gym where they teach many different styles or a blend of styles.    There is a gym near me that teaches some form of 'street' karate.   They also have classes in kickboxing, BJJ, boxing and wrestling.  The gym has a ring and a cage as well as a tatami all under one roof.  The only 'brand name' MA they promote is 10th Planet.  Everything else is pretty generic.   

People enjoy going there and it caters to people wanting to learn MMA for the most part but you can also join the gym to take specific classes.  

Getting back to the karate they teach, I have had friends go there that have done Kyokushin and they say it is NOT what would resemble any traditional karate training.   Yes, you wear a dogi and there are belts in the system but that is pretty much where the resemblance to karate ends.   I believe the karate is aimed at kids and women who want to learn self-defence.  When asked what style of karate it is, the answer is a form of 'street' karate that is an improvement to the traditional systems out there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2020)

jobo said:


> well clearly not, but then my guitar playing has very little to do with music,,but a dissertation on introspective issues isnt about anything at all but writing,
> 
> assuming there are no wrong answers, and totally bizarre if there is a right answer. that requires you not to actually espressos your feeling accurately
> 
> and what gives them the right to require you to reveal your emotions to them ?


Sometimes it’s just about encouraging folks to think.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> If I were a betting man, I'd wager that the vast majority of adults who get into martial arts fall into one of two categories.  They either trained as a child and are getting back into it, or they enroll their child in class and are roped into training as a family thing.
> 
> I think you're probably right that most folks don't have any idea what they're looking for.


Most of the adults I’ve taught were either experienced martial artists (roughly the same as one of your groups), or just folks who’d been curious about MA for a long time and were just now getting around to it for various reasons. But I’m not at all certain that’s representative of the general population.


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## drop bear (Jun 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> Well, we know that they compete, and that it's very effective "on the street" and against any style... except for that one move that, if done correctly, no can defend.



Wait they do MMA?


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Wait they do MMA?


No, they suck at grappling.


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Most of the adults I’ve taught were either experienced martial artists (roughly the same as one of your groups), or just folks who’d been curious about MA for a long time and were just now getting around to it for various reasons. But I’m not at all certain that’s representative of the general population.


Start teaching kids, and then you can rope the parents into class, too.  Offer a discounted family rate.  Pretty much all of the kids will quit after a year or so, but some of the parents will stick around.  And there are always more kids. The money is with the kids.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> Start teaching kids, and then you can rope the parents into class, too.  Offer a discounted family rate.  Pretty much all of the kids will quit after a year or so, but some of the parents will stick around.  And there are always more kids. The money is with the kids.


At my instructor’s school, we had a significant minority of adults that came in that way. Probably 10-15%. But it was a fairly small school, with more adults than kids.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 17, 2020)

jobo said:


> well clearly not, but then my guitar playing has very little to do with music,,but a dissertation on introspective issues isnt about anything at all but writing,
> 
> assuming there are no wrong answers, and totally bizarre if there is a right answer. that requires you not to actually espressos your feeling accurately
> 
> and what gives them the right to require you to reveal your emotions to them ?



Well if we look into it, the act of strumming strings has nothing to do with music. At all. It's because the strings are all tightened to various levels to produce certain vibrations that allows certain notes to be played.

But then, music is more than just notes being played isn't it.. there's intention, story, emotion, reflection that makes songs.

And you think writing is about writing? Writing has nothing to do with writing!  (unless we're talking stylistic calligraphy, which is not what I'm referring to)

It's okay if you don't like the writing components. But I can see value in getting the student to think and reflect on exactly what it is they're doing.


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## drop bear (Jun 18, 2020)

Steve said:


> No, they suck at grappling.



Nah. We have a drill for grappling. It is called BJJ.


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## jobo (Jun 18, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Well if we look into it, the act of strumming strings has nothing to do with music. At all. It's because the strings are all tightened to various levels to produce certain vibrations that allows certain notes to be played.
> 
> But then, music is more than just notes being played isn't it.. there's intention, story, emotion, reflection that makes songs.
> 
> ...


i think your over analysing the guitar example, i was agreeing with Gerry that MA is not necessarily about fighting, there are physical and mental benefits to be had even if you never manage to be able to fight, much like my guitar example, if i want music il employ the services of a musician, the process has significant benefits to me, though i will never be in a position where i or anyone else would want to listen for enjoyment, which is really the defining point where sound becomes music

as to WRITING, that is the process of recording your thought or idea or information, it can be hand writing, but a type writer or word processing equipment still results in the written word and is therefore writing, but then scratching them ion the wall with a nail also counts

ive had debates over the years that the act of forming the idea to be recorded is part of the writing process, so you dont need any recording equipment to have sitting there staring into space( thinking)count as writing, but that probably a discussion for another day


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## _Simon_ (Jun 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> i think your over analysing the guitar example, i was agreeing with Gerry that MA is not necessarily about fighting, there are physical and mental benefits to be had even if you never manage to be able to fight, much like my guitar example, if i want music il employ the services of a musician, the process has significant benefits to me, though i will never be in a position where i or anyone else would want to listen for enjoyment, which is really the defining point where sound becomes music
> 
> as to WRITING, that is the process of recording your thought or idea or information, it can be hand writing, but a type writer or word processing equipment still results in the written word and is therefore writing, but then scratching them ion the wall with a nail also counts
> 
> ive had debates over the years that the act of forming the idea to be recorded is part of the writing process, so you dont need any recording equipment to have sitting there staring into space( thinking)count as writing, but that probably a discussion for another day


Yeah for sure. I guess my point was that writing was not about the writing, but like you said, about recording or conveying an idea. Communication.

I've had many, many experiences in the dojo when the instructor would stop the class and ask, "what do we think this movement is for?" And countless times I've heard the response, "ahh.. well I've never really thought about it." And I have certainly done this too! From that point on I really made sure to reflect on things (and of course the instructor wouldn't just leave us hanging).

Whilst that's more about learning technical stuff, I think pointing students towards reflecting on and communicating the benefits they have gotten from it, or even their general understanding of the philosophy or approach of the style really helps the student gain more of an appreciation and deepens their own understanding of the art and ends up teaching them more.

And particularly if it's a much higher grade, it's nice to consider and look back on the whole journey that led to here


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## jobo (Jun 18, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah for sure. I guess my point was that writing was not about the writing, but like you said, about recording or conveying an idea. Communication.
> 
> I've had many, many experiences in the dojo when the instructor would stop the class and ask, "what do we think this movement is for?" And countless times I've heard the response, "ahh.. well I've never really thought about it." And I have certainly done this too! From that point on I really made sure to reflect on things (and of course the instructor wouldn't just leave us hanging).
> 
> ...


but thats takes us back to the MA is special philosophy, if doing that is a positive benefit, what dont people who have been on a musical journey or a fitness journey or a learning to juggle chain saws journey do like wise

you can only conclude that either MA or everything and everybody else is wrong about its benefits


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## _Simon_ (Jun 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> but thats takes us back to the MA is special philosophy, if doing that is a positive benefit, what dont people who have been on a musical journey or a fitness journey or a learning to juggle chain saws journey do like wise
> 
> you can only conclude that either MA or everything and everybody else is wrong about its benefits



I can't answer that for you. Although there plenty of testimonials written (especially with fitness journeys), maybe sorta similar perhaps?

Maybe it's specific to MA because it takes quite a commitment to reach those levels. Not to detract from any other skills, but it takes quite a bit of perseverance and commitment, so there's that.

Maybe it's just a MA thing. Doesn't make it 'special'. Just that that's what some of them do. Why don't they dump a bucket of Gatorade over the instructor's head when they win at a martial arts tournament, like has become a thing in some football circles?

Rising through the grades in piano we'd do an end of year concert, and that sort of communicated a similar thing. Showing how far we'd come, but moreso to ourselves than anybody else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> but thats takes us back to the MA is special philosophy, if doing that is a positive benefit, what dont people who have been on a musical journey or a fitness journey or a learning to juggle chain saws journey do like wise
> 
> you can only conclude that either MA or everything and everybody else is wrong about its benefits


The non-fighting benefits of MA can definitely be found elsewhere. I’ve known business coaches who took similar approaches (using business situations to learn larger lessons and develop thoughtfulness), and have seen some of the same in organized sports.


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## Steve (Jun 18, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Nah. We have a drill for grappling. It is called BJJ.


That's actually how you know the difference between Cobra Kai and MMA.  There's a school around here that actually changed their name from American Colleges of Karate to American Colleges of Mixed Martial Arts. While I believe they have had a few guys who have competed in local MMA events, they are not primarily an "MMA" gym.  They are a school that mixes various styles.   


jobo said:


> i think your over analysing the guitar example, i was agreeing with Gerry that MA is not necessarily about fighting, there are physical and mental benefits to be had even if you never manage to be able to fight, much like my guitar example, if i want music il employ the services of a musician, the process has significant benefits to me, though i will never be in a position where i or anyone else would want to listen for enjoyment, which is really the defining point where sound becomes music
> 
> as to WRITING, that is the process of recording your thought or idea or information, it can be hand writing, but a type writer or word processing equipment still results in the written word and is therefore writing, but then scratching them ion the wall with a nail also counts
> 
> ive had debates over the years that the act of forming the idea to be recorded is part of the writing process, so you dont need any recording equipment to have sitting there staring into space( thinking)count as writing, but that probably a discussion for another day


I believe that there are a lot of benefits to learning to do pretty much anything.   I try to learn to do something completely new at least every couple of years, whether it's cooking and baking, throwing pottery, carpentry, brewing beer, making soap, jiu jitsu, or whatever.  You don't have to be great at something to benefit from the pursuit. However, the activity has to have some internal integrity. In other words, the less concrete, intangible benefits of learning to play a musical instrument are not realized if you're just mindlessly strumming strings.  As @_Simon_ observed, the act of strumming strings isn't inherently musical.


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## Steve (Jun 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The non-fighting benefits of MA can definitely be found elsewhere. I’ve known business coaches who took similar approaches (using business situations to learn larger lessons and develop thoughtfulness), and have seen some of the same in organized sports.


I actually think it's far more universal that you suggest, and would go further to say that the non-fighting benefits of MA have little to do with MA. Further, the intangible benefits (e.g., respect, character, self-discipline, self-esteem) are a by-product of applying oneself to developing skills in pretty much anything, from learning to play chess to getting your welding certifications.


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## jobo (Jun 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> The non-fighting benefits of MA can definitely be found elsewhere. I’ve known business coaches who took similar approaches (using business situations to learn larger lessons and develop thoughtfulness), and have seen some of the same in organized sports.


 i was talking specifically about people not being asked to write an essay on how ''swimming made me feel( insert any pass time and award)before being given a life guards badge


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## jobo (Jun 18, 2020)

Steve said:


> That's actually how you know the difference between Cobra Kai and MMA.  There's a school around here that actually changed their name from American Colleges of Karate to American Colleges of Mixed Martial Arts. While I believe they have had a few guys who have competed in local MMA events, they are not primarily an "MMA" gym.  They are a school that mixes various styles.
> I believe that there are a lot of benefits to learning to do pretty much anything.   I try to learn to do something completely new at least every couple of years, whether it's cooking and baking, throwing pottery, carpentry, brewing beer, making soap, jiu jitsu, or whatever.  You don't have to be great at something to benefit from the pursuit. However, the activity has to have some internal integrity. In other words, the less concrete, intangible benefits of learning to play a musical instrument are not realized if you're just mindlessly strumming strings.  As @_Simon_ observed, the act of strumming strings isn't inherently musical.


 strumming is the very essence of playing guitar and its not at all easy to do so musically. mindlessly strumming strings is the objective, that when your good, as long as you have to concentrate your poor


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## Steve (Jun 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> strumming is the very essence of playing guitar and its not at all easy to do so musically. mindlessly strumming strings is the objective, that when your good, as long as you have to concentrate your poor


I agree with this


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 18, 2020)

Steve said:


> I actually think it's far more universal that you suggest, and would go further to say that the non-fighting benefits of MA have little to do with MA. Further, the intangible benefits (e.g., respect, character, self-discipline, self-esteem) are a by-product of applying oneself to developing skills in pretty much anything, from learning to play chess to getting your welding certifications.



While devoting oneself to any pursuit will develop certain intangible benefits as *byproducts*, in TMA, these benefits are not collateral byproducts, but primary intentional *goals.  *They are inherent in the "do" of karate-do.  This is where TMA is different from most other pursuits.  There are few activities capable of changing one's physical body, way of looking at the world, and way of looking at oneself, all at the same time, to the extent MA can.

To illustrate this uniqueness in another way:   There are chat rooms for chess players, I'm sure, where they discuss strategy, tactics, history and so on.  But do they discuss physical training, philosophy, character development?  Probably not much.  If welders have such a site, they may talk of hours worked, types of metal, equipment and other technical issues.  But again, I doubt if philosophy, moral standards, humility, and outlook on life are regular subjects of discussion.

Is there any site out there where, in addition to technical matters specific to the activity, these other topics are discussed on a regular basis?  By chance, there is.  And it happens to be MA oriented!  Now, if I could only find it........


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## Steve (Jun 18, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> While devoting oneself to any pursuit will develop certain intangible benefits as *byproducts*, in TMA, these benefits are not collateral byproducts, but primary intentional *goals.  *They are inherent in the "do" of karate-do.  This is where TMA is different from most other pursuits.  There are few activities capable of changing one's physical body, way of looking at the world, and way of looking at oneself, all at the same time, to the extent MA can.
> 
> To illustrate this uniqueness in another way:   There are chat rooms for chess players, I'm sure, where they discuss strategy, tactics, history and so on.  But do they discuss physical training, philosophy, character development?  Probably not much.  If welders have such a site, they may talk of hours worked, types of metal, equipment and other technical issues.  But again, I doubt if philosophy, moral standards, humility, and outlook on life are regular subjects of discussion.
> 
> Is there any site out there where, in addition to technical matters specific to the activity, these other topics are discussed on a regular basis?  By chance, there is.  And it happens to be MA oriented!  Now, if I could only find it........


I hear you, and I agree with you that TMA is different and unique.  We just simply disagree on the outcome.  Well, honestly, it's not quite that clean.

On one hand, it's not as unique as you might think.  A good coach or teacher, regardless of the activity, will speak to character often.  On a good team, everyone speaks to these things often.  They will encourage their students or players to practice hard, be diligent and mindful, not cut corners, and to do these things even when they aren't being watched.  They are encouraged to be resilient.  A good coach or teacher talks about these things overtly and also demonstrates these things through their actions.  So, when you say that this is unique to TMA, I disagree.  It's intrinsic to any good team and will be a big part of any good program. 

When you say that these are elevated to primary, intentional goals in TMA, I agree here, too.  However, I get that you see it as a pro, but I most definitely consider that a real problem.  I don't think these things are well suited to be primary goals.  In fact, as I said above, because they are intrinsic to any good team/program, they are inherently a byproduct of the diligent pursuit of something else, grounded in some other effort.  Simply put, I don't think you can teach discipline in a vacuum any more than you can teach someone how to fight by talking about fighting.  There has to be an anchor for the lessons that is practical and concrete.


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## drop bear (Jun 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> i was talking specifically about people not being asked to write an essay on how ''swimming made me feel( insert any pass time and award)before being given a life guards badge



There is a bit of academic study surrounding sport though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 18, 2020)

Steve said:


> I actually think it's far more universal that you suggest, and would go further to say that the non-fighting benefits of MA have little to do with MA. Further, the intangible benefits (e.g., respect, character, self-discipline, self-esteem) are a by-product of applying oneself to developing skills in pretty much anything, from learning to play chess to getting your welding certifications.


I wholly agree. I was referring more to the purposeful focus on those areas of development, but developing those areas is more the result of applied discipline over time, regardless of what the application is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> i was talking specifically about people not being asked to write an essay on how ''swimming made me feel( insert any pass time and award)before being given a life guards badge


Understood. I was just saying they could be, if the lifeguard course wanted to do more than teach them to save folks from drowning.


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## jobo (Jun 18, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There is a bit of academic study surrounding sport though.


yes but not generally of the sports men themselves taking higher  level qualification. some of them are barely able to read


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## jobo (Jun 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Understood. I was just saying they could be, if the lifeguard course wanted to do more than teach them to save folks from drowning.



saving lives is rather there job, what more were you thinking of ? selling ice cream while they wait for someone to shout help ?


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## drop bear (Jun 18, 2020)

jobo said:


> yes but not generally of the sports men themselves taking higher  level qualification. some of them are barely able to read



Martial arts combines them.


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## jobo (Jun 19, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Martial arts combines them.


i think thats far from a universal truth, most ma including most instructors, it seems from my experience,are clueless about performance training,( they just use bro science)which is why those who take a bit of time to read up( no actual qualification needed in the internet age) have a significant advantage

if your going to quote MMA at me, that may be true at the pro level but its probably the trainer rather than the athlete and youve already produced a picture of some '' elite '' level fighters who clearly are under trained to a significant degree , so clearly they are lacking a sports scientist to guide them

if performance training isnt a defining factor in MMA there wouldn't be wide spread doping


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 21, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> While devoting oneself to any pursuit will develop certain intangible benefits as *byproducts*, in TMA, these benefits are not collateral byproducts, but primary intentional *goals.  *They are inherent in the "do" of karate-do.  This is where TMA is different from most other pursuits.  There are few activities capable of changing one's physical body, way of looking at the world, and way of looking at oneself, all at the same time, to the extent MA can.
> 
> To illustrate this uniqueness in another way:   There are chat rooms for chess players, I'm sure, where they discuss strategy, tactics, history and so on.  But do they discuss physical training, philosophy, character development?  Probably not much.  If welders have such a site, they may talk of hours worked, types of metal, equipment and other technical issues.  But again, I doubt if philosophy, moral standards, humility, and outlook on life are regular subjects of discussion.
> 
> Is there any site out there where, in addition to technical matters specific to the activity, these other topics are discussed on a regular basis?  By chance, there is.  And it happens to be MA oriented!  Now, if I could only find it........



Just want to wrap up this line of thought regarding how MA is different than other pursuits as far as collateral vs designed intangible benefits go.  I have realized that the main difference between MA and, say chess, music, business or welding is this: * MA teaches how to do physical damage to another human being* (while putting oneself as risk of injury as well.)  Without guiding principles, respect, humility, responsibility, etc., the results could be nasty. 

 At least as far back as the creator of White Crane (the main forerunner of what we now know as Karate) these principles have been emphasized by the masters - practically all of them, in fact. Healing arts were also part of MA at one time. These things were so important to them that they wove these teachings into the fabric of their curriculum.  So, TMA is rather unique in this regard.  Again, these intangibles are an integral part of TMA, purposely incorporated, and not just a beneficial by-product.


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## Steve (Jun 22, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Just want to wrap up this line of thought regarding how MA is different than other pursuits as far as collateral vs designed intangible benefits go.  I have realized that the main difference between MA and, say chess, music, business or welding is this: * MA teaches how to do physical damage to another human being* (while putting oneself as risk of injury as well.)  Without guiding principles, respect, humility, responsibility, etc., the results could be nasty.
> 
> At least as far back as the creator of White Crane (the main forerunner of what we now know as Karate) these principles have been emphasized by the masters - practically all of them, in fact. Healing arts were also part of MA at one time. These things were so important to them that they wove these teachings into the fabric of their curriculum.  So, TMA is rather unique in this regard.  Again, these intangibles are an integral part of TMA, purposely incorporated, and not just a beneficial by-product.


Harm to another human?  I don't think that's a given.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 22, 2020)

Steve said:


> Harm to another human?  I don't think that's a given.


Of course it is! Proof!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2020)

jobo said:


> saving lives is rather there job, what more were you thinking of ? selling ice cream while they wait for someone to shout help ?


I said if they wanted to. If they wanted tot teach other life skills, they might use things like writing to works on those. It’d be beyond the life saving, so not pertinent to the job of a life guard.


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