# The Muslim Jesus...



## Makalakumu

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5664653194971017112&hl=en

This video presents the story of Jesus as told by the Koran.  I imagine that many will find it surprising that Jesus is an important part of Islam.

Of course, they have a different story...


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## cstanley

upnorthkyosa said:


> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5664653194971017112&hl=en
> 
> This video presents the story of Jesus as told by the Koran. I imagine that many will find it surprising that Jesus is an important part of Islam.
> 
> Of course, they have a different story...


 
It is completely absurd for any American or Christian  to even consider Muslim views on Jesus, the Judaeo-Christian tradition, or anything else. Until we get over this PC crap about "openness" to Muslims we will forever be co-opted in our efforts to deal with what is and always has been a Judaeo-Christian hating nonsense religion based upon the psychotic fantasies of one man. I think the entire country has lost its mind.


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## Rich Parsons

upnorthkyosa said:


> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5664653194971017112&hl=en
> 
> This video presents the story of Jesus as told by the Koran. I imagine that many will find it surprising that Jesus is an important part of Islam.
> 
> Of course, they have a different story...


 
I am not surprised. 

Jesus is a recognized Profit just like Abraham and Moses.

There are some differences they state about Jesus, and the claim that as Muhammad is the last profit he is the greatest. It is their religion They can believe what they want. 

The Jewish Faith does not Believe Jesus was the son of God, they believe he, the son of God or Saviour, will come in the future. (* From my limited exposure to this faith *). It is their faith they can believe what they want.


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## Empty Hands

cstanley said:


> It is completely absurd for any American or Christian  to even consider Muslim views on Jesus, the Judaeo-Christian tradition, or anything else.



Why?  Learning not your thing?



cstanley said:


> Until we get over this PC crap about "openness" to Muslims we will forever be co-opted in our efforts to deal with what is and always has been a Judaeo-Christian hating nonsense religion based upon the psychotic fantasies of one man.



Well, that certainly isn't true.  For instance, the Muslim world was far more welcoming and tolerant of Jews for most of their history than the Christian world, Europe in particular, was.  Jews and Christians could even rise to high governmental rank, like Joseph Nasi, Duke of Naxos, Count of Andros, and high-ranking diplomat under Suleiman I in the Ottoman Empire.


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## donald

What I find interesting is that Islam mentions The Lord Jesus as a prophet, and a liar!  

1stJohn1:9


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## Kacey

Judaism believes that Jesus was a holy man and a prophet, but not the Messiah, as the conditions for the coming of the Messiah have not yet been met; therefore, according to Judaic belief, the Messiah cannot have come yet, and thus cannot have been Jesus.

As far as Islam, however, the Koran includes many of the events in the Old and New Testaments, although the perspective is different in many cases.  In general, you have Judaism, which considers only the Old Testament to be holy writ; then you have Christianity, which considers the Old and New Testaments to be holy writ.  Christianity grew out of Judaism; then they each evolved in different directions based on their understanding and application of holy writ.  

Christianity expanded to Europe, and Judaism (although much smaller in number of pracitioners) moved along with it.  Both grew and evolved further in Europe and, later, in the western parts of Asia, especially in what was Russia.  Islam continued to grow and evolve in the Middle East.

Islam takes the events of the Old and New Testaments, and adds to them the words of Muhammed, their holiest prophet, best summed up the phrase "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammed is his prophet".  All 3 religions have their roots in the same region and same historical events - else they would not all share Jerusalem as a holy city; although Mecca is the holiest city for those who practice Islam, Jerusalem is still recognized as significant.  Since Islam includes the events of the Old and New Testaments, it must perforce deal with Jesus as well - but to my understanding, no prophet stands before Muhammed in importance; please correct me if I am wrong.


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## cstanley

Empty Hands said:


> Why? Learning not your thing?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that certainly isn't true. For instance, the Muslim world was far more welcoming and tolerant of Jews for most of their history than the Christian world, Europe in particular, was. Jews and Christians could even rise to high governmental rank, like Joseph Nasi, Duke of Naxos, Count of Andros, and high-ranking diplomat under Suleiman I in the Ottoman Empire.


 

Yeah, I know...so we acknowledge that and the fact that they did preserve Aristotle for us. It is indeed true that Islam is founded upon the psychotic fantasies of one man. What you and too many others do not seem to understand is that the big bright pink elephant in the dining room that every one is walking around is the fact that our war is against Islam...period, not some politely mythic "Islamic" terrorism. Islamic terrorism is a huge redundancy. We need to finish the job that Richard the First, Charlemagne, Pepin, and Catherine de Medicis did not finish. The Spanish did a pretty good job, albeit too late to avoid too much Muslim influence on their culture. I don't think I am the one with the learning problem.


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## Empty Hands

cstanley said:


> ...the fact that our war is against Islam...period, not some politely mythic "Islamic" terrorism. Islamic terrorism is a huge redundancy.



Enjoying yourself Internet Tough Guy?  When you calm down a little, you might want to realize that there are millions of completely peaceful Muslims who want nothing more than to live peacefully and well and raise their children.  They don't need or want you dead.  I would take them any day over someone like yourself who would declare war on peaceful people.



cstanley said:


> I don't think I am the one with the learning problem.



Well, one thing's for sure, you _are _the one with the proudly ignorant aggression problem.

Enjoy your attempted war of genocide champ.  Don't be surprised when the only people standing by your side have shaved heads and swastika tattoos.

Hey, while we're at it, do you realize or care that some well known and respected members of this board are Muslims?


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## Xue Sheng

cstanley said:


> It is indeed true that Islam is founded upon the psychotic fantasies of one man.


 
Have you even read the Koran? And if that is a psychotic fantasy them the Bible is loaded with them.

And if this is what you think of Islam you must be pretty put off by Buddhism (one guy Gautama Siddhattha) and Taoism (one guy Lao Tzu... kinda) too I guess


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## punisher73

Empty Hands said:


> Why? Learning not your thing?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that certainly isn't true. For instance, the Muslim world was far more welcoming and tolerant of Jews for most of their history than the Christian world, Europe in particular, was. Jews and Christians could even rise to high governmental rank, like Joseph Nasi, Duke of Naxos, Count of Andros, and high-ranking diplomat under Suleiman I in the Ottoman Empire.


 
Yes, they were so tolerant that when the muslims prohibited visitors into Jerusalem, and then started to systematically try to advance their empire and destroy those that stood in the way, they were being SOOO tolerant.  It was those events that prompted the plea for help that became known as "The Crusades".  

Not to mention from "their prophet" the Muslims are COMMANDED to behead the infidels.  Yes, so tolerant!

There is a HUGE difference in someone using religion to JUSTIFY their actions and being COMMANDED to do those actions.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

cstanley said:


> Yeah, I know...so we acknowledge that and the fact that they did preserve Aristotle for us. It is indeed true that Islam is founded upon the psychotic fantasies of one man. What you and too many others do not seem to understand is that the big bright pink elephant in the dining room that every one is walking around is the fact that our war is against Islam...period, not some politely mythic "Islamic" terrorism. Islamic terrorism is a huge redundancy. We need to finish the job that Richard the First, Charlemagne, Pepin, and Catherine de Medicis did not finish. The Spanish did a pretty good job, albeit too late to avoid too much Muslim influence on their culture. I don't think I am the one with the learning problem.


 
I'd be tempted to assume they don't grow them all that bright in Georgia, but then that would be the same type of idiocy expressed in your statements. Too bad the Union Army didn't finish what they started, and destroy the rest of your ancestors. Or, better still, too bad Hitler didn't finish what he started, then we would all be speaking German. Or Japanese. 

Rarely on these boards have I ever dismissed someone as an idiot. I may disagree with people vehemently, and get my undies all torqued in a bunch, but not dismiss them as an idiot. Congratulations; you are the first.

Bigotry & stupidity don't mix well, and when they do, trying to argue with them is a bit like shouting at a wall.
:BSmeter:

Dave


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## Empty Hands

punisher73 said:


> Yes, they were so tolerant that when the muslims prohibited visitors into Jerusalem...



It's a relative thing, as I made clear in my comments.  The Muslim countries in past centuries, particularly the Ottoman empire, were more tolerant of Jews and other foreigners than most Christian countries, particularly Europe.  This is not to say that the Muslim countries were a perfect utopia of tolerance and brotherhood.


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## tellner

Rich Parsons said:


> The Jewish Faith does not Believe Jesus was the son of God, they believe he, the son of God or Saviour, will come in the future. (* From my limited exposure to this faith *). It is their faith they can believe what they want.



That's close, but still a bit wide of the mark. I don't want to hijack the discussion, but hope it's okay to clear up a few inaccuracies...

Judaism doesn't have the same concept of "salvation" and "damnation" as Christianity or Islam. There have been various thoughts on the subject over the centuries. What it comes down to is that the fundamental Divine Spark which is part of each of us is perfect and imperishable. But it is (metaphorically) covered with dross. Each of us is entitled to a portion on the World to Come, a return to the Divine. But if one does not turn away from evil and towards good the process of returning to that state is longer and more painful. 

The good or evil that we do here in the world has cosmic significance precisely because we are spiritually limited, half blind, free-willed and deal with gross matter. The Kabbalists say that the angels envy us because of our capacity to do such things, to make changes in solid dumb matter and affect ourselves and others in permanent ways. With the world in the sad state it's in the smallest reaching towards G-d can be the pivot on which great things turn.

According to the Sages and the Law Moshiach has not yet arrived. Look in Torah and Talmud for specifics. "But though he tarry I still long for his coming". It's said that in every generation there is or are souls with the potential to carry out that function. When he (or she) does people's eyes will be opened. We will all truly understand and live an accordance with the Divine Will. But it's not "salvation" in the Christian sense, and it isn't limited to Jews. 

And Moshiach is not the Son of G-d. He or she will be a human being. There's no need for a human sacrifice. The divide between spirit and matter is a false one, so there's no need for a demigod to bridge the gap. The first Moshiach will struggle, suffer and ultimately fail. The second will triumph and bring about the Messianic age. 

I guess a doctrine like that cuts down on the people who want to pop up and say "I'm the One!"

"Really? Let's make sure you've got that suffering and failing part taken care of." 

The real difference is one of perspective. Christianity is much more focused on the next life, the World of Truth as we call it. Jews don't hold with the sharp division between spirit/heaven/good and matter/earth/bad. This is the world we are in. Living a good life in it is what's important. The next one is not where we are, so get back to work and concentrate on what you need to do in the here-and-now


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## Xue Sheng

punisher73 said:


> Yes, they were so tolerant that when the muslims prohibited visitors into Jerusalem, and then started to systematically try to advance their empire and destroy those that stood in the way, they were being SOOO tolerant. It was those events that prompted the plea for help that became known as "The Crusades".


 
You really need to check your history on the Crusades if you are going to use that as an example. 

The Christian crusaders killed everyone they found in Jerusalem be they Muslim, Jew or Christian.

And it was more the Pope wanting to free the Hollyland from the Muslims then a cry for help from Jews in Jerusalem and if that was the case killing them really didn&#8217;t help them all that much. The pope was not all to fond of Jews either

EDIT
And why am I really starting to think this thread is destine to be locked


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## Grenadier

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## tellner

cstanley said:


> It is completely absurd for any American or Christian  to even consider Muslim views on Jesus, the Judaeo-Christian tradition, or anything else. Until we get over this PC crap about "openness" to Muslims we will forever be co-opted in our efforts to deal with what is and always has been a Judaeo-Christian hating nonsense religion based upon the psychotic fantasies of one man. I think the entire country has lost its mind.



Thank you for sharing, cstanley.

Let's clear up a few old lies and distortions here...

First, there is no "Judaeo-Christian tradition" _[sic]_. Judaism and Christianity have very different outlooks. The term was invented by Christians to co-opt Judaism and force it to surrender its age and legitimacy to be some sort of precursor to your religion. No Jew would ever use the term. Nor would an educated Christian. 

Islam is Islam. There's infinitely more evidence for the existence of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) than there is for the existence of Jesus. The Christian Holy Book has little or no historical coherence, something your face is currently being rubbed in in another discussion. We know who Mohammed was. We know when and where he lived. And even if I believe that Umar al Kitabu did a lot of editing we have plenty of good reason to believe that the Quran is pretty much exactly what was written.

As for delusions and psychoses, I don't think you would like the same harsh light shone on your beliefs. Consider Paul. Consider John the Divine. Consider any number of other such things. A dispassionate observer would have to suggest that you take Yeshua ben Maryam's advice about beams and dust specks.

If you want to look at the histories of Christianity and Islam in the world you will find that the fruits they have borne aren't always better on the Christian side. I'm being mild here to try for fairness.

An attitude like yours is precisely why people like Madison, Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and all the rest specifically kept all positive mention of religion out of the Constitution. They knew about the corrosive effects of religious hatred and bigotry and were vocal in expressing their horror at them. They were children of the Enlightenment, not the Reformation or Counter-Reformation and certainly not mouth-breathing Know Nothings. In fact, the peace treaty Jefferson signed with the Barbary Coast nations and the Senate approved specifically stated that the United States was "in no way a Christian nation" and had no hostility whatsoever to Islam.

Islam, like Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and every other religion has its problems. Part of it is that they are all limited things run by limited human beings. The Ultimate Reality is almost certainly beyond any of them.


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## tellner

Xue Sheng said:


> Have you even read the Koran? And if that is a psychotic fantasy them the Bible is loaded with them.
> 
> And if this is what you think of Islam you must be pretty put off by Buddhism (one guy Gautama Siddhattha) and Taoism (one guy Lao Tzu... kinda) too I guess



Not to mention one guy Yeshua ben Maryam :shrug:


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## Makalakumu

I had some premonition that I would have to apologize to Bob after starting this thread, however, I feel that this video is really worth the discussion.  I learned more about Islam in 45 minutes then I did in 20 years in public schools.

Watch the movie and comment.


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## tellner

It shouldn't surprise anyone that Isa(pbuh) is important in Islam. He is considered to be one of the Prophets and even more one who brought a Book to humanity. Mohammed(pbuh) spent a lot of his time with Christians and was particularly influenced by the Nestorians whom Islam later preserved from murder at the hands of the Pauline Christians. The Quran says to the Jews that Isa was "the one whom We sent to you".


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## CoryKS

Xue Sheng said:


> And why am I really starting to think this thread is destine to be locked


 
Not to worry.  If we don't get that pesky Judaism vs. Christianity vs. Islam question solved once and for all here at MartialTalk, I'm sure the folks over at HorrorMovieForums or BDSMChat or BikersWorld will take care of it.


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## tellner

upnorthkyosa said:


> I had some premonition that I would have to apologize to Bob after starting this thread, however, I feel that this video is really worth the discussion.  I learned more about Islam in 45 minutes then I did in 20 years in public schools.
> 
> Watch the movie and comment.



You've got nothing to apologize for. The video was interesting and informative. It presents a truer view of Muslim thought than 99% of what most Americans are exposed to. You were unfailingly polite. If other people choose to be angry bigots that is their problem, not yours.


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## Makalakumu

tellner said:


> You've got nothing to apologize for. The video was interesting and informative. It presents a truer view of Muslim thought than 99% of what most Americans are exposed to. You were unfailingly polite. If other people choose to be angry bigots that is their problem, not yours.


 
Thank you, and I would just like to note, something you wrote inspired a new signature.

Anyway, regarding the movie, I really felt that it was a well rounded and positive viewing of Islam.  This is something that is so rare in America...hell it's probably rare to find it in English!  Watch the movie and see what real Muslim's look like.  Watch the movie and mirror image of your own sincerity...

Even myself, as an atheist, saw some humans through the haze that other people put in front of me.


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## Xue Sheng

CoryKS said:


> Not to worry. If we don't get that pesky Judaism vs. Christianity vs. Islam question solved once and for all here at MartialTalk, I'm sure the folks over at HorrorMovieForums or BDSMChat or BikersWorld will take care of it.


 
:lol:


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## tellner

upnorthkyosa said:


> Thank you, and I would just like to note, something you wrote inspired a new signature.



:asian:


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## Sukerkin

Debate on any religion is ever going to produce unwarranted heat because by definition it delves into peoples prejudices and reflexive beliefs.  

That doesn't mean that we can't try to have a reasonably rational and polite discussion about such subjects, just that we all have to be a touch more sensitive than usual to avoid punching a persons 'buttons', derailing the thread as a consequence and probably getting it locked.

Until recent months I would've said it would be no problem to manage such a conversation here at MT but things have been more fractious of late and personal respect has taken a hit or two.  Still, I am hopeful that calm and eloquent minds will triumph here and the thread will bear fruit worth eating.

I am a near-atheist agnostic, as we've established before and have serious doubts about the social value of any faith once you get away from the root tenet of "Let's be excellent to each other" ... but ... I shall look forward to watching the video tho' when I get the chance (playing with my imaginary cars in GT4 right now) and hope to have something to say afterwards :rei:.


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## Empty Hands

Sukerkin said:


> Until recent months I would've said it would be no problem to manage such a conversation here at MT but things have been more fractious of late and personal respect has taken a hit or two.



Well, I am one of the perpetrators of that.  Sorry.

Really though Sukerkin, there has to be a line.  I agree with you that rationality and civility are excellent goals to strive for.  However, in some cases, as in this thread, some posts go so far over the line, are so egregious, that a stronger response is required.  Responding politely to a call for genocide only lends false respect and validity to that call.  Such a call requires repudiation in the harshest terms.


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## shesulsa

Empty Hands said:


> Well, I am one of the perpetrators of that.  Sorry.
> 
> Really though Sukerkin, there has to be a line.  I agree with you that rationality and civility are excellent goals to strive for.  However, in some cases, as in this thread, some posts go so far over the line, are so egregious, that a stronger response is required.  Responding politely to a call for genocide only lends false respect and validity to that call.  Such a call requires repudiation in the harshest terms.


_*No.*_

What it requires is the attention of the staff. 

We rely on our membership to click the little RTM icon, not return vitriol - if the second then two people must be reprimanded rather than the one.  Further, we'd hope our members are above stooping to the level of posts they deem unworthy of polite consideration.

That said - let's all cool off and return to civil conversation folks.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator


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## heretic888

tellner said:


> That's close, but still a bit wide of the mark. I don't want to hijack the discussion, but hope it's okay to clear up a few inaccuracies...
> 
> Judaism doesn't have the same concept of "salvation" and "damnation" as Christianity or Islam. There have been various thoughts on the subject over the centuries. What it comes down to is that the fundamental Divine Spark which is part of each of us is perfect and imperishable. But it is (metaphorically) covered with dross. Each of us is entitled to a portion on the World to Come, a return to the Divine. But if one does not turn away from evil and towards good the process of returning to that state is longer and more painful.
> 
> The good or evil that we do here in the world has cosmic significance precisely because we are spiritually limited, half blind, free-willed and deal with gross matter. The Kabbalists say that the angels envy us because of our capacity to do such things, to make changes in solid dumb matter and affect ourselves and others in permanent ways. With the world in the sad state it's in the smallest reaching towards G-d can be the pivot on which great things turn.
> 
> According to the Sages and the Law Moshiach has not yet arrived. Look in Torah and Talmud for specifics. "But though he tarry I still long for his coming". It's said that in every generation there is or are souls with the potential to carry out that function. When he (or she) does people's eyes will be opened. We will all truly understand and live an accordance with the Divine Will. But it's not "salvation" in the Christian sense, and it isn't limited to Jews.
> 
> And Moshiach is not the Son of G-d. He or she will be a human being. There's no need for a human sacrifice. The divide between spirit and matter is a false one, so there's no need for a demigod to bridge the gap. The first Moshiach will struggle, suffer and ultimately fail. The second will triumph and bring about the Messianic age.
> 
> I guess a doctrine like that cuts down on the people who want to pop up and say "I'm the One!"
> 
> "Really? Let's make sure you've got that suffering and failing part taken care of."
> 
> The real difference is one of perspective. Christianity is much more focused on the next life, the World of Truth as we call it. Jews don't hold with the sharp division between spirit/heaven/good and matter/earth/bad. This is the world we are in. Living a good life in it is what's important. The next one is not where we are, so get back to work and concentrate on what you need to do in the here-and-now



QFT x 2


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## Touch Of Death

cstanley said:


> It is completely absurd for any American or Christian to even consider Muslim views on Jesus, the Judaeo-Christian tradition, or anything else. Until we get over this PC crap about "openness" to Muslims we will forever be co-opted in our efforts to deal with what is and always has been a Judaeo-Christian hating nonsense religion based upon the psychotic fantasies of one man. I think the entire country has lost its mind.


Stop holding back and tell us how you really feel.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

cstanley said:


> I don't think I am the one with the learning problem.


Think on it some more.
Sean


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## theletch1

Touch Of Death said:


> Stop holding back and tell us how you really feel.
> Sean


Nah.  Holding back is just fine... 'cause not holding back could truly lead to some serious repercussions for TOS violations...especially after Mrs. Ketchmark's warning a few posts back.


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## cstanley

Many of you are of the cultural equivalence, moral equivalence, "can't we all just get along" school of thought. I believe that to be a huge error. I also find it interesting that several of you "respected members" have resorted to personal attacks, vomiting up the old standard liberal line of "if you don't like cultural equivalence, moral equivalence, and Muslims you must be a racist or a dumbass or both." Our country has raised a generation or two of pampered, passive, "peace at any price" hand wringers who will let the country go Communist, Socialist, Muslim or to Hell as long as they can have all the video games, techno-toys, music, dope, and sex they can get. I see that group is well represented here.

In Georgia, they grow us at least bright enough to know who the enemy is...the enemy within and without. Nations fall because nobody wants to be bothered with the unpleasant realities of history. 

One of you punks referred to me as a "tough guy." I am not posturing. I am simply stating straight-forwardly what I see to be a real problem for our culture and our nation. We have become so soft, so negotiable, and so relativistic that we no longer have the political courage to do the necessary things to survive.  

I believe, unapologetically, that Western, Judaeo-Christian culture (Yes, Virginia, there is Judaeo-Christian culture) is the superior culture on the planet and perhaps in history. It is threatened by guilt-ridden, self-hating, angry liberals who feel responsible for everyone in the world but themselves.

Now, everybody, on three...wring your hands, run in small circles, cry "EWWWW Hitler, Hitler!! Nazi!!! Nazi!!!!" Then run for a moderator like the kids in school who used to tattle to the teacher when somebody talked.


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## Empty Hands

shesulsa said:


> We rely on our membership to click the little RTM icon, not return vitriol - if the second then two people must be reprimanded rather than the one.  Further, we'd hope our members are above stooping to the level of posts they deem unworthy of polite consideration.



So then such a person will receive a private reprimand from the staff, or a general warning will be posted.  Meanwhile, a call for genocide (or similar) will remain on this site unanswered for as long as MT remains in business and Google keeps a cache.  Such an action can only lend the impression of acceptance, or at least casual disregard.

It's your party obviously and I can't change how you've chosen to run things.  I just hope you can see how such a policy might look to people surfing through here.  There are real names with real reputations attached to this site, after all.


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## shesulsa

Empty Hands said:


> So then such a person will receive a private reprimand from the staff, or a general warning will be posted.  Meanwhile, a call for genocide (or similar) will remain on this site unanswered for as long as MT remains in business and Google keeps a cache.  Such an action can only lend the impression of acceptance, or at least casual disregard.
> 
> It's your party obviously and I can't change how you've chosen to run things.  I just hope you can see how such a policy might look to people surfing through here.  There are real names with real reputations attached to this site, after all.


Indeed and all the more reason to respond with intelligence and courtesy rather than equal nastiness.  We don't want to drive a bus with all the adults in the back going back and forth with:

"Is Not!" - "Is Too!"
"Is Not!" - "Is Too!"
"Is Not!" - "Is Too!"

While I can certainly understand emotional fortitude and the value of the sensitive nature of this conversation, it commands intelligent, calm, polite discourse - even if the response you receive is lacking one or all of these qualities.

This is my final in-thread warning here.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator


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## thardey

As a Christian, and having had some very good discussions with others in this thread (Empty Hands, Sukerkin, Tellner -- Heretic, I seem to remember a discussion on Evolution that ended well, if I remember, you were a part of that one.) I've gotta speak up.

Cstanley, these guys are smart. They deserve respect. Yes, I interpret things differently than they do. No, I don't feel that I am "watering down" my faith by not attacking them. In fact, in attacking, that would be contrary to my belief in living a righteous life. (Which was discussed here in the philosophy section as well.) I've gained a lot of good perspectives that I couldn't find in church, and I thank all of them for that.

Now, if your purpose is to instruct on the ways of Islam, and their imminent take-over of the western world unless the righteous stand up and resist their every effort at breathing. Back up, take a breath, try again, and pick your battles a little better. That is, think long and hard if you're willing to into a discussion that may require hours or days of research for a good response.

If your purpose is to convert these gentlemen to Christianity, Stop it, you're embarrassing me.

So far, the fruit of all of your posts to date have the same fruit of a troll. I'm not saying that is your intent, but I have only the fruit to look at. 

To the rest of you gentlemen, I apologize that the level of judgment in this, and another, thread has to come from the perspective of one claiming to share my belief system. I wish I could say that it is not representative of many of my faith, but sadly, I cannot. 

As far as the OP, Jesus (Yeshua, Isa, Iesu, Joshua, whatever) Muslims really have no reason to oppose the teachings of Jesus. It's the idea that he is God that draws the line. The rest of the fight is political and always has been. You have to remember that Christianity was married to the government until very recently in history. Islam is still married to its government. You can't claim that everything the government does is representative of the religion, nor can you claim that everything the religion does is representative of the government.

It more often comes down to the idea of "Jesus is ours! You can't use him to advance your religion!"


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## Sukerkin

{points to post#35 above}

My background was indelibly religious and I have fairly regular discourses with my father, who ever holds dear to his heart that he can persuade me back from my immanent atheism.  We shall, I fear, never agree (much as I would like to give him that as the end of his life beckons ) but in all our late night discussions we never make the mistake of drawing lines in the sand or making declamatory statements that will only alienate each other to such an extent that the conversation collapses.

*Thardey* in his words above did much to re-enhance the position of those of Christian faith for the very reason that it puts over a non-fanatical, rational, point of view of the faith (and, no, it's not because he implied I had a synapse or two that fired in sequence occasionally ).  

Overtly abusing and castigating those who disagree with you merely ensures that an argument will never be settled and that your view will never be even considered as 'holding water' - or at least that's the case in the circles I move in.  Being 'polite' in what could be a fractious circumstance does more to get you listened to than being aggressive - the latter might get you the last word but it certainly wouldn't influence anyone beyond that.

'Belief' is a part of the Human Condition, even for rationalists like me.  I don't *know* there isn't a God, I can't prove it; so, QED, my non-belief in him is a faith also in it's own logical way {if that's not a cogently paradoxical sentence I've yet to read one :lol:}.

What you do with your Belief is the thing that matters, possibly even more than what the belief is in and of itself.  

What you do and how you behave in defending it matters too and colours others views - that's not a sneaky 'stab' at anyone here, on either 'side' of the divide because we are all human and sometimes our breaking points leap on us unannounced.  It's how we move forward from such a point that measures us.


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## Makalakumu

I'd like to respond to the last post and I hope that some of the other members who are surfing have taken heed of Ms. Ketchmark's warning.

Why should only Christians have belief in Jesus?  Would this apply to Mormons?  Certainly they are Christian, but their faith tradition developed differently then many of the more common Christian faiths.

My point is this, both have different accounts of Jesus' life.  Yet both are given different respect.  I think we need to realize that the myth of Jesus doesn't belong to this group or that group.  Any group can take that myth and change it to fit their purpose.  

That is the nature of myth.


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## tellner

thardey said:


> think long and hard if you're willing to into a discussion that may require hours or days of research for a good response.



Years for some of it :shrug:




> To the rest of you gentlemen, I apologize that the level of judgment in this, and another, thread has to come from the perspective of one claiming to share my belief system. I wish I could say that it is not representative of many of my faith, but sadly, I cannot.


The life of every faithful person is a battle between the ego and the Divine. It's hard to break out of believing in what makes you feel comfortable and opening up to the terrifying scrutiny of that happens when one puts Truth before comfort. One common response is to make an idol of one's religion and retreat from anything that might challenge those comfortable emotional ruts.

It's part of the human condition, not the property of any particular system or tradition.

The English-speaking world has more Christians than any other professed faith. You'll see more examples of Christians with the pathology. In Tel Aviv it would be Jews. In Delhi it would be Hindus. In Bangkok it would be Buddhists.

He's responsible for what comes out of his mouth. It's just a shame that some of it spatters on other Christians.


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## Kacey

People are people.  They believe what they are raised to believe, unless and until someone presents them with information in a non-judgmental, rational format.  

Religion is particularly sticky on this point, because so much of what one believes in religion is based on _faith_ - and faith, by its very nature, is subjective; it must be _believed_, and all of its proofs are based on that belief.  If you wish to convince others that your _belief_ is correct, then railing at them, trying to yell them into submission, will generally have the opposite effect.

As far as the video, I've not watched it yet; I teach in a middle school, and all known video sites are blocked.  I intend to watch it later this evening when I get back from teaching my TKD class.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

cstanley said:


> Many of you are of the cultural equivalence, moral equivalence, "can't we all just get along" school of thought. I believe that to be a huge error. I also find it interesting that several of you "respected members" have resorted to personal attacks, vomiting up the old standard liberal line of "if you don't like cultural equivalence, moral equivalence, and Muslims you must be a racist or a dumbass or both." Our country has raised a generation or two of pampered, passive, "peace at any price" hand wringers who will let the country go Communist, Socialist, Muslim or to Hell as long as they can have all the video games, techno-toys, music, dope, and sex they can get. I see that group is well represented here.
> 
> In Georgia, they grow us at least bright enough to know who the enemy is...the enemy within and without. Nations fall because nobody wants to be bothered with the unpleasant realities of history.
> 
> One of you punks referred to me as a "tough guy." I am not posturing. I am simply stating straight-forwardly what I see to be a real problem for our culture and our nation. We have become so soft, so negotiable, and so relativistic that we no longer have the political courage to do the necessary things to survive.
> 
> I believe, unapologetically, that Western, Judaeo-Christian culture (Yes, Virginia, there is Judaeo-Christian culture) is the superior culture on the planet and perhaps in history. It is threatened by guilt-ridden, self-hating, angry liberals who feel responsible for everyone in the world but themselves.
> 
> Now, everybody, on three...wring your hands, run in small circles, cry "EWWWW Hitler, Hitler!! Nazi!!! Nazi!!!!" Then run for a moderator like the kids in school who used to tattle to the teacher when somebody talked.


 
In Georgia, they apparently raise them to relate hate on behalf of a path named after a man who preached love for ALL, not just those who followed him. They apparently teach followers to be intolerant, in the name of a country preacher who publicly chastised the religiously intolerant of his own day (Pharisees, or something like that). They raise their young to spit epithetical vitriole towards other nations in the name of a philosopher and mage who loved so much and so deeply, he allowed himself to be tormented and executed in the one of the worst possible ways concieveable at the time.

So, cstanley, praise god and pass the intolerance. Show us the love of Jesus Christ through your actions, by calling for the decimation of people He loves, and -- according to your religion -- died for. Show us Gods will by demonstrating hate for people he's died to embrace. No, seriously. Keep it up. You're doing a wonderful job of demonstrating the sort of dogmatic thinking that Islamic Extremists used to justify their terrorist acts. Only you're fixin to turn the table, and make them the victim of terrorist acts committed by good, god-fearing Western Judeo-Christian extremists. I suspect you hate what you see in them, because you see the same in your self.

Let's see...fruits of the Spirit:
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...nope. Nowhere in there does it say nasty, mean-spirited little intents towards folk of opposing race, color or creed (look up "creed" if you're stuck there...it relates to your anti-islam sentiments).

Let's try this (again, from your own holy book) "For God so loved only non-Muslims, that he sent his only begotten Son...". Wait, that's not right.

"And Jesus said, "Of all the commandments, the greatest is love...except for muslims". Oh. Nope. Sorry again. Didn't say that either.

Maybe this one: "Beloved, let us love one another. For love is of God, and everyone who loves is born of God, and knows God, for God is love...except for Muslims". Sorry. Wrong again. 

Funny how the inclusive nature of positive messages from sacred texts can only be construed to be intolerant if we tweak it, take it out of context, or change it completely to make it say something it doesn't.


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## Xue Sheng

cstanley said:


> Many of you are of the cultural equivalence, moral equivalence, "can't we all just get along" school of thought. I believe that to be a huge error. I also find it interesting that several of you "respected members" have resorted to personal attacks, vomiting up the old standard liberal line of "if you don't like cultural equivalence, moral equivalence, and Muslims you must be a racist or a dumbass or both." Our country has raised a generation or two of pampered, passive, "peace at any price" hand wringers who will let the country go Communist, Socialist, Muslim or to Hell as long as they can have all the video games, techno-toys, music, dope, and sex they can get. I see that group is well represented here.
> 
> In Georgia, they grow us at least bright enough to know who the enemy is...the enemy within and without. Nations fall because nobody wants to be bothered with the unpleasant realities of history.
> 
> One of you punks referred to me as a "tough guy." I am not posturing. I am simply stating straight-forwardly what I see to be a real problem for our culture and our nation. We have become so soft, so negotiable, and so relativistic that we no longer have the political courage to do the necessary things to survive.
> 
> I believe, unapologetically, that Western, Judaeo-Christian culture (Yes, Virginia, there is Judaeo-Christian culture) is the superior culture on the planet and perhaps in history. It is threatened by guilt-ridden, self-hating, angry liberals who feel responsible for everyone in the world but themselves.
> 
> Now, everybody, on three...wring your hands, run in small circles, cry "EWWWW Hitler, Hitler!! Nazi!!! Nazi!!!!" Then run for a moderator like the kids in school who used to tattle to the teacher when somebody talked.


 

yup that about sums it up for me and tells me all I need to know... nice talkin' to ya... gotta go.


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## Bob Hubbard

Empty Hands said:


> So then such a person will receive a private reprimand from the staff, or a general warning will be posted.  Meanwhile, a call for genocide (or similar) will remain on this site unanswered for as long as MT remains in business and Google keeps a cache.  Such an action can only lend the impression of acceptance, or at least casual disregard.
> 
> It's your party obviously and I can't change how you've chosen to run things.  I just hope you can see how such a policy might look to people surfing through here.  There are real names with real reputations attached to this site, after all.


Just to add a small tangent here.... We remove very few posts. Some of those we could remove, we leave. Our policy is to hold people accountable, and when one puts their foot in their mouth up to the hip, over and over again and is later banned as a result, it often saves us from having to answer the "why'd you ban so n so, all their stuff I read was good." as the reasons become apparent with a little digging.  We can discuss that though more, elsewhere.


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## cstanley

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> In Georgia, they apparently raise them to relate hate on behalf of a path named after a man who preached love for ALL, not just those who followed him. They apparently teach followers to be intolerant, in the name of a country preacher who publicly chastised the religiously intolerant of his own day (Pharisees, or something like that). They raise their young to spit epithetical vitriole towards other nations in the name of a philosopher and mage who loved so much and so deeply, he allowed himself to be tormented and executed in the one of the worst possible ways concieveable at the time.
> 
> So, cstanley, praise god and pass the intolerance. Show us the love of Jesus Christ through your actions, by calling for the decimation of people He loves, and -- according to your religion -- died for. Show us Gods will by demonstrating hate for people he's died to embrace. No, seriously. Keep it up. You're doing a wonderful job of demonstrating the sort of dogmatic thinking that Islamic Extremists used to justify their terrorist acts. Only you're fixin to turn the table, and make them the victim of terrorist acts committed by good, god-fearing Western Judeo-Christian extremists. I suspect you hate what you see in them, because you see the same in your self.
> 
> Let's see...fruits of the Spirit:
> Love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...nope. Nowhere in there does it say nasty, mean-spirited little intents towards folk of opposing race, color or creed (look up "creed" if you're stuck there...it relates to your anti-islam sentiments).
> 
> Let's try this (again, from your own holy book) "For God so loved only non-Muslims, that he sent his only begotten Son...". Wait, that's not right.
> 
> "And Jesus said, "Of all the commandments, the greatest is love...except for muslims". Oh. Nope. Sorry again. Didn't say that either.
> 
> Maybe this one: "Beloved, let us love one another. For love is of God, and everyone who loves is born of God, and knows God, for God is love...except for Muslims". Sorry. Wrong again.
> 
> Funny how the inclusive nature of positive messages from sacred texts can only be construed to be intolerant if we tweak it, take it out of context, or change it completely to make it say something it doesn't.


 
My word...the smarmy self-righteous is really impressive. Don't you have some snake oil to sell?


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## Darksoul

-Wow, its just so easy to hate. I figured out years ago, when I was younger, (and I like to think good parenting and common sense) that labels are meaningless. Someone here seems very intent to paint all Muslims with a coating of evil. How can you believe in this? The actions of a few always put the world at large in danger. Meaning the relatively small group of Islamic-Fascists go well out of their way, albeit probably not intentionally, to make the millions of peaceful Muslims in the world feared by others. This is silly. These small groups of loud extremists believe in something that puts them well away from people of faith. The same can be said of Christians, Pagans, Jews, all spiritual paths. There will always be a small group bent of using something inherently good to ruin the lives of others.

-I do not understand how this is constantly rolled over by many. Maybe a part of it is not wanting to look in the mirror. Well I do look in the mirror, physically, mentally and spiritually. And I understand that it is the person, not the faith, that needs to be held accountable for his or her, or as a group, their actions. I hold myself responsible for my actions, for my thoughts but I certainly have no interest in controlling the lives of others, only defending myself, my family and friends, my nation if needed.

-Not expecting a perfect world, or a new prophet, or any rapture of taking place. Yeah, some of us believe in peace, but we're not naive to think it will happen all over. However, there is so much we can do to bring peace to our lives, to our little part of the world, and it does start by taking a step back and looking inside. The millions of Muslims today don't know me, don't want to kill me, don't want to convert me. But I will forever consider them brothers and sisters of HUMAN origin and live with the intent of bettering our world for everyone.

-Wow, that sounds so nice and simplistic, its a wonder flowers aren't falling from this sky, music playing from the heavens, and the various gods and goddesses aren't giving the Earth a giant bear hug.

But hey, its better than hating.

Andrew


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I really enjoyed that. It is always nice to see unity and some sort of common ground of a shared belief. I think finding this unity and common ground between religions is one of the main essence in which religion is about.


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## Ray

upnorthkyosa said:


> Why should only Christians have belief in Jesus?  Would this apply to Mormons?  Certainly they are Christian, but their faith tradition developed differently then many of the more common Christian faiths.


Speaking as a Mormon who has read the Koran (and needs to re-read it), I think it is important to note that the those of most religions who live the standards of their religion continually do good.

Helping the poor, for example, is something common in the Christian, Jewish and Muslim sects.  And, some atheists also do good - and that is indeed a good thing -- and it is their right to be atheists.  As long as my rights are not infringed upon then everyone should believe as they will and be encouraged to do good and cease from evil.

It's good to know what others believe and to not get upset with people who don't believe as you do.  It's good to know that people from different cultures express themselves differently than you might.

Time to get off the soap box.


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## MBuzzy

I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Kuwait - two VERY muslim countries...and I have to say that Kuwait was filled with what I consider to be the most polite, thoughtful, and kind people that I have ever encountered - in all my travels.  The Iraqis who were NOT insurgents of course were the same.  I never went into the office of an Iraqi who did not offer me food, drink, and kindness - whether it was my position or not....I've never encountered that in the U.S.  Not that Muslims are better, but after spending a lot of time around them, I can say that we have no reason to hate them as a people and culture.


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## Edmund BlackAdder

People who haven't read the books of other cultures, who haven't lived among them, nor interacted with them are often ill equiped to judge them, and ill advised to open mouth lest they dine on shoe pie.

I see some has already been served here. I do so hope he had washed them first.


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## tellner

It reminds me of a discussion I've had with Christians and Muslims about Sodom and Gomorrah. The Christians who are not well educated in their faith say the sin of those cities was a willingness to attach the dongle to the wrong port. Jews, Muslims and more informed Christians either get it reflexively or have read all the way to Isaiah. It was cruelty to strangers and breaking the sacred laws of hospitality. 

Yes, even in the so-to-speak "Old Testament" to be kind and welcoming is one of the most important, non-negotiable core values. The Gospels are full of admonitions to be kind and generous "to the least of these". The Quran, Sunnah and Hadith are explicit and uncompromising on the importance of charity and hospitality.

cstanley, saying "There is so a Judaeo-Christian tradition" doesn't make it so no matter how loudly you yell it. And if you're going to use a term at least learn how to spell it correctly. The adjective is "Judeo". Jews and Christians have very different religious beliefs and vastly divergent ways of looking at the world. I know that's not what they tell you at the Megachurch. But it's true as a few hours with a knowledgeable Jew would clearly show. 

Wiping foam from one's lips with grace and dispatch is not a substitute for actual data and logic. You have been presented with those from all quarters. I count Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Sikhs and probably a couple other flavors among the participants. Your arguments have run aground on all of these and have devolved to a distressing type - increasingly loud assertion, _ad hominem_ attack and the equivalent of "La! La! La! I can't hear you!"

Everyone is due a certain amount of human consideration and respect. You're using up your share increasingly quickly and not bothering to replenish it. If you insist on whipping facts and reason together from the Temple nobody will want to talk to you. You may feel vindicated and victorious in your isolation. It will be a mirage.


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## Carol

Perhaps, if nothing else, this thread can shine some light on why religous batltes are so much more than "fighting over a book".  There is so much more to it than choice of scripture.


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