# What not to do with swords



## MA-Caver (Jun 20, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> You HAD to post this just before I went out and played Last Samurai didn't you!!! Well I guess I can always still go play Jedi knight with fluorescent light tubes
> :jedi1:
> 
> Thank you, this is great information and a great post.



Make sure they're filled with gasoline first... there was a vid about morons that did THAT... 

While the idea of using swords is romantic and calls up the days of knights and musketeers and samurai's and so forth... They are dangerous weapons in the hands of the inexperienced (never mind how dangerous they are in trained hands) ... Swordlady's tips are sound and sincere and so full of common sense that there's no room for anything else but solid agreement here. 
I've seen ads for schools that teach the true art of utilizing the Katana (easily the most popular sword now-a-days) ... the demos were flashy to be sure ... but the back of my mind was reminding me that those guys had practiced for years before getting "that-good" and I'll betcha they got a training scar or three along the way. 
If you any doubts (for newcomers) then look at this and imagine that it's a 34-36" blade doing the cuts instead... the officer probably wouldn't be alive... the pics were done with a knife... (from another thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31868&highlight=graphic+knife+pictures) *GRAPHIC photo warning! Remember this was done with just a knife. *http://kukan.active-logic.com/docs/knifeinjury.pdf
If you honestly want to learn... scroll up and click on the links that'll lead you to the right school(s). 

Good thread m'lady :asian:


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 21, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> Make sure they're filled with gasoline first... there was a vid about morons that did THAT...


 
OOOH COOL... I'm off to Mobil...  



			
				MA-Caver said:
			
		

> While the idea of using swords is romantic and calls up the days of knights and musketeers and samurai's and so forth... They are dangerous weapons in the hands of the inexperienced (never mind how dangerous they are in trained hands) ... Swordlady's tips are sound and sincere and so full of common sense that there's no room for anything else but solid agreement here.
> I've seen ads for schools that teach the true art of utilizing the Katana (easily the most popular sword now-a-days) ... the demos were flashy to be sure ... but the back of my mind was reminding me that those guys had practiced for years before getting "that-good" and I'll betcha they got a training scar or three along the way.
> If you any doubts (for newcomers) then look at this and imagine that it's a 34-36" blade doing the cuts instead... the officer probably wouldn't be alive... the pics were done with a knife... (from another thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31868&highlight=graphic+knife+pictures) *GRAPHIC photo warning! Remember this was done with just a knife. *http://kukan.active-logic.com/docs/knifeinjury.pdf
> If you honestly want to learn... scroll up and click on the links that'll lead you to the right school(s).
> ...


 
I agree. 

And what many who run off to play with swords, with visions of (as you said) "the romantic and calls up the days of knights and musketeers and samurai's" Fail to realize is they were using swords to kill each other, not play slice the melon on the ladder.


----------



## trueaspirer (Jun 21, 2006)

Great tips. You'd be amazed (or not) to know what people will do for fun.


----------



## howard (Jun 25, 2006)

More food for thought.

Yesterday I went to a study group that I train with on Saturdays.  Before our class they do a Iaido class.  During the Iaido class, one of the students (who holds dan rank in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu and is quite experienced) was doing a kata... apparently his focus wandered, and he sliced his left forearm open pretty badly.  Had to be taken to the hospital to get stitched up internally and externally.  No word yet on any lasting damage, we all hope that there is none.

To reiterate, this is a serious student, training under a very quailified instructor.

If you're only doing kata, please consider using a dull blade (I do)... if you search around, you can find quaility iaito and their Korean equivalents that mimic a katana in size and weight, and are perfectly acceptable for kata practice.  Much better to be safe than sorry.


----------



## Swordlady (Jun 27, 2006)

Found another stupid katana video.  Definitely do NOT do what this guy is doing: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7852479463569512577&q=katana


----------



## pstarr (Jun 27, 2006)

I can only say, "remarkable."

It's remarkable that he didn't at least lose an ear...


----------



## shesulsa (Jun 28, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Found another stupid katana video.  Definitely do NOT do what this guy is doing: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7852479463569512577&q=katana


Wow. Just wow.


			
				Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Shinken are like guns that can't be unloaded and have no safety.


Nicely put.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2006)

All that spinning over his head and he never left the ground.

One too many ninja movies me thinks


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 28, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Found another stupid katana video.  Definitely do NOT do what this guy is doing: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7852479463569512577&q=katana



I'm gonna play "Devil's Advocate" here for a moment, and remind you guys that there is a difference between a "Sword Stunt" and swordwork.

The kids in the first video with the rollerblades were idiots.  Out of Context, you dont know so much with this guy... Reason I bring that up, is I did somthing almost identical to this for a scene in a movie... and performed the stunt with somthing that was unlikley to lop anything off my body if I screwed up.  Is his sharp?

I guess what I am saying is, We have training with a sword, so we see things that are  "out there" to us, and its easy to jump in and judge them,  but without context... we don't know if someone is an idiot and being unsafe, or aware of what they are doing.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 28, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I'm gonna play "Devil's Advocate" here for a moment, and remind you guys that there is a difference between a "Sword Stunt" and swordwork.
> 
> The kids in the first video with the rollerblades were idiots. Out of Context, you dont know so much with this guy... Reason I bring that up, is I did somthing almost identical to this for a scene in a movie... and performed the stunt with somthing that was unlikley to lop anything off my body if I screwed up. Is his sharp?
> 
> I guess what I am saying is, We have training with a sword, so we see things that are "out there" to us, and its easy to jump in and judge them, but without context... we don't know if someone is an idiot and being unsafe, or aware of what they are doing.



Yes the local troop that does the swash-buckler sword work at the Ren-Fest are not about real blade work but about stage safety and also flash so the blade can be seen. 

On the other hand if this video is for true demonstration, my biggest concern are the open fingers during his twirls.  This means he either does not have the right flexibility to perform the technique or is not using the proper body mechanics to execute the technique. 

Yet, one could say he could not move as intended for the stationary camera. Hence why I really dislike video work unless I know exactly what it was for and trying to accomplish.


----------



## Swordlady (Jul 1, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I'm gonna play "Devil's Advocate" here for a moment, and remind you guys that there is a difference between a "Sword Stunt" and swordwork.
> 
> The kids in the first video with the rollerblades were idiots.  Out of Context, you dont know so much with this guy... Reason I bring that up, is I did somthing almost identical to this for a scene in a movie... and performed the stunt with somthing that was unlikley to lop anything off my body if I screwed up.  Is his sharp?
> 
> I guess what I am saying is, We have training with a sword, so we see things that are  "out there" to us, and its easy to jump in and judge them,  but without context... we don't know if someone is an idiot and being unsafe, or aware of what they are doing.



Getting back to you three days later...after looking at the videoclip *again*, I have issue with how he named the video "Sword Training".  He also did this little bow before and after his "routine" - as if bowing added a little "credibility" to what he did.

Sure there is plenty of twirly sword stuff in the movies, but it that is not considered *real* sword art training by any stretch.


----------



## Swordlady (Jul 1, 2006)

I was at the dojo this afternoon for YSKR class.  Chris was showing me a technique - and like a stupid idiot, I decided to _rush_ it.  I was supposed to push the back of the blade upwards with both hands, but somehow, I pushed the blade's point into the side of my _left thumb_ instead.  Fortunately, the blade wasn't that sharp (I think that last month's attempt at tameshigiri dulled it a bit), but it was still sharp enough to poke a small cut into my thumb.  I shudder to think what might've happened with a _really_ sharp blade.

Lesson learned: Do NOT rush techniques you're not that familiar with.  Especially not with a sharpened blade.  I could've very easily sliced off a chunk of my thumb this afternoon if my sword was any sharper.


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 12, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Getting back to you three days later...after looking at the videoclip *again*, I have issue with how he named the video "Sword Training". He also did this little bow before and after his "routine" - as if bowing added a little "credibility" to what he did.


I agree about the last video. He was not well versed. He is obviously too stiff and tense and it was evident he could not breath correctly, probably why he was so tense. This kid was a novice if that.



			
				Swordlady said:
			
		

> Sure there is plenty of twirly sword stuff in the movies, but it that is not considered *real* sword art training by any stretch.


Ever hear of Haidong Gumdo? Shimsang Gumbup? I came from a stright Kendo/Iaido background as far as the sword goes, . There's nothing twirly about it except for the whoosh of the sword and Hakama. When I was first introduced to Gumdo by Grandmaster I thought I had been introduced to some secret clan. And I was very delighted to be invited so deep inside. Even in the Dojang though an Iai-to was used.

Personally though I've stabbed myself with an Iai-to right in my left arm. I was doing Noto and drew the sword across the webbing of my thumb when I felt the Kisaki drop into the Koiguchi, well I was young and hurried through my techniqes for more flash. Well I went to sheath really quickly as I dropped equally as fast to my knee and felt the blade tip run up my left forearm 1/8th of an inch to the side of a major artery. Luckily it was not sharp and only left a scratch. Also this one time I was executing Chiburi and wacked the back of my head with the Bokken. I respect a live blade with Chiburi now. 
Grand master used to pull a kid from the spectators row and have them hold a piece of paper for me with both thumbs and first fingers. As I cut the paper with his prized $10,000 Katana he had the nervous kid put the two halves together and rotate. Until the paper was a 1/16th its original size, cutting half after half. Try folding a piece of paper 4 times to see how small this target was. Every cut was made from Jodan. I always hated that demonstration. I still don't know why he always had me do that to this day. Anyways if I were a beginner there would be a kid with less fingers out there somewhere.:uhyeah:  Moral of my long story.  If you train use something dull. You WILL eventually get cut.  It's not a matter IF.


----------



## Charles Mahan (Jul 12, 2006)

Dustin that story about cutting paper out of the hands of a spectator is disturbing to say the least.  It smacks of mellon cutting, showmanship at it's worst, and a blatant disregard for the safety of the audience member.  It's exactly the sort of thing this thread is trying to warn against.


----------



## howard (Jul 12, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Dustin that story about cutting paper out of the hands of a spectator is disturbing to say the least. It smacks of mellon cutting, showmanship at it's worst, and a blatant disregard for the safety of the audience member. It's exactly the sort of thing this thread is trying to warn against.


I'm completely in agreement with Charles.

If your objective is to practice cutting motion and technique, you can do this by cutting newspaper with a wooden sword.  If your technique is deficient, the paper will just crumple.  If your technique is sound, the wooden sword will cut the paper.  Not a nice, razor-straight cut, but a cut nonetheless.

Even when doing this type of practice, we start out with two people holding the paper (one on either side), for safety's sake.


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 12, 2006)

howard said:
			
		

> I'm completely in agreement with Charles.
> 
> If your objective is to practice cutting motion and technique, you can do this by cutting newspaper with a wooden sword. If your technique is deficient, the paper will just crumple. If your technique is sound, the wooden sword will cut the paper. Not a nice, razor-straight cut, but a cut nonetheless.
> 
> Even when doing this type of practice, we start out with two people holding the paper (one on either side), for safety's sake.


 
     I agree he was very excentric.  One day he started throwing razor sharp shuriken at me.  I was suprised to find out that I could slow down time and catch them...meh another time, long story.  
     Now I ask you just this one thing.  Why would a world renowned 8th degree Grand Master, President of the International Haidong Gumdo Association have me cut that paper the way he did?  Knowing the risks that were involved?  I must have did that demo at least 10 times and never cut anyone.  I've cut paper with two people but that was easy because it was 6 foot long try it two inches and see how much you trust yourself.  Stupid, yes!!!  But those were the old days of training and it was hard:whip: .  Believe me I have no desire to do anymore demos like that.  It makes me shiver right now thinking about that blade falling and inch to the left/right.irate:


----------



## Charles Mahan (Jul 12, 2006)

Who is this person you speak of?  A name please if you will.  I don't know squat about the Korean world of swords.  Mentioning his title is not helpful.

As for why people put on stupidly dangerous flashy shows of skill, it's usually an ego thing.  It screams "Look at me!  Look how wonderful I am!  Come! Train at my dojo and give me all your money!"  By having a student do it, you make it legally safer for yourself if something were to go wrong, and yet can still take credit as the masterful sensei who trained such a prodigy if something goes right.

To take hapless audience members and put them at risk in this fashion borders on criminal negligence and reckless endagerment on your part.

Why do I get the distinct feeling I'm feeding a troll.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jul 12, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Why do I get the distinct feeling I'm feeding a troll.



Im gonna go with the "I can slow down time and catch shuriken" comments...


----------



## Swordlady (Jul 12, 2006)

I have seen videoclips of high-ranked martial artists doing stupid things with swords - like cutting a melon on a man's stomach.  There is this one clip floating around the Net, where a MA instructor accidentally slit his assistant's throat while cutting a cucumber.

Just because a person has a high dan in a MA doesn't automatically mean that he/she knows how to safely handle a sword, or any other weapon.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 12, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> I have seen videoclips of high-ranked martial artists doing stupid things with swords - like cutting a melon on a man's stomach. There is this one clip floating around the Net, where a MA instructor accidentally slit his assistant's throat while cutting a cucumber.
> 
> Just because a person has a high dan in a MA doesn't automatically mean that he/she knows how to safely handle a sword, or any other weapon.


 
Can I have an Amen to that!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## howard (Jul 13, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Who is this person you speak of? A name please if you will. I don't know squat about the Korean world of swords...



I know a bit about Korean sword arts, because I practice one (which is very heavily influenced by MJER), and I can asssure you that the foolishness being described here is _not_ representative of legitimate Korean sword arts.



			
				Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Why do I get the distinct feeling I'm feeding a troll.


My bet is the comment about catching flying shuriken...


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 13, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Who is this person you speak of? A name please if you will. I don't know squat about the Korean world of swords. Mentioning his title is not helpful.
> 
> As for why people put on stupidly dangerous flashy shows of skill, it's usually an ego thing. It screams "Look at me! Look how wonderful I am! Come! Train at my dojo and give me all your money!" By having a student do it, you make it legally safer for yourself if something were to go wrong, and yet can still take credit as the masterful sensei who trained such a prodigy if something goes right.
> 
> ...


 
Kwang Jang Nim Kirk I. Koskella formerly a resident of Idaho. President and Founder of the American Song Moo Kwan Association, Co-Manager of the World Song Moo Kwan Association, under the Ro, Hee Sang (Son of Song Moo Kwan's founder). Executive Vice President of Grand Master Bong Soo Han's International Hapkido Federation, General Secretary of the Worldwide Martial Arts Association (Korea), and United states Chairman of the World Haidong Gumdo Federation.

I hope that's enough background. 

Okay I should have never mentioned the shuriken thing. Big Huge mistake on my part. If you want the whole story I will respect your wishes, however; it was a lesson mostly on fear and control of your surroundings. Adrenaline + Breathing = sensory perception of slowed time. 

I came to these boards with the utmost honesty. I make no supernatural claims or claims of mastery.


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 13, 2006)

howard said:
			
		

> I know a bit about Korean sword arts, because I practice one (which is very heavily influenced by MJER), and I can asssure you that the foolishness being described here is _not_ representative of legitimate Korean sword arts.
> 
> 
> My bet is the comment about catching flying shuriken...


 
Jung Sin Il Do Ha Sa Bul Sung

Foolishness?  Howard, do you practice Tanjun Hohap?  Tell me is candle snuffing foolish?  Or how about cutting oranges?  They do this in Korea not to say, "hey look I'm so cool I can cut through an orange", they cut oranges because hey it's not easy to cut an orange from any Kamae or even a kiwi.  Try cutting a ping pong ball in four pieces, I always loved that one.  It's good training just as Tameshigiri is good training or paper cutting.  Is that the soul of the art or just one of the blossoms?  Hardly the soul. 

     Remember the old days of belt fights (whipping is what I called it) and shinai training?  How can you make claims of legitimacy or not?  In the old days men died in training, that was before the invention of Kendo.  There was actually quite a restructuring when I was teaching because students did not want to train under me because I came from the "old days".  Shotokan way.  Spirit first technique second, those days.  I remember all the instructors having to watch a video tape of the modern changes to the "industry" and of how now there is a gentle way of retaining students and that we must be more sensitive.  We all had to take tests and get certified, I can't remember the course now.  I called it B.S. but must admit we made more money when changing to the gentle method.  But the modern martial arts was starting to lack anything real.  Such is the traditional martial arts of today (not all).  Safety first is the new way.  Then we understood what it is like to get punched in the face with a bare fist or have a shuto across your temple or how about the time sparring full contact and you get an ippon ken to the xiphoid process (goodnight).  In the old ways we all understood what techniques could do because everything was real but still with control, I stress the word CONTROL.  When you came onto the mat you watched everyone and was aware of everything, fear was constant in those days, Sensei Campbell loved to demonstrate yaka zuki on unsuspecting brown belts.  Anyone ever sparred with all the lights out?  Try it, it hurts a lot. LOL!!!!!!!!!!  In the new age we started wearing sparring equipment. 

       Foolishness?  Remember stories of Miyamoto, Musashi as he was walking up the ranks of soldiers of the Kumamoto clan.  Out of hundreds of "warriors" only one did he find worthy.  The warrior he chose had absolutely no fear, out of hundreds of better trained Samurai this is the only one who remained with the spirit of Kokoro.  When Musashi asked why this student had no fear the student stated, "I hardly train at all", the samurai admitted humbly, "When I go to bed each night, I simply unsheathe my sword and hang it above my face by a slender thread.  Then I lie down beneath it and gaze up at its point until I fall asleep."  These are old ways.  As are catching razor blades flying through the air.  They are no longer necessary but can be a good source for the way path.  

Okay I'm sorry to the moderators for interupting this thread, I suppose you are used to this kind of thing.  I come from old ways and it was dangerous.  That was then.  A thousand apologies for my nature so back to the subject.  Koung Yet!!!!  

Today when dealing with live blades safety must come first.  Do you feel like it would be okay to lose a hand or an artery?  Be careful please and be responsible, mostly respect the weapon, it only takes a touch to slice through a neck or even a torso.  Everything YOU do is at YOUR own risk.  Myself I prefer the Iai-to and when I use a live blade I understand the risks involved and accept that fate. If I could rewind time to the past I would not have allowed the audience to participate in anything like that.  I thank God that no one was ever hurt by me or that no one was ever killed.  I just have a distaste for the modern "business" of martial arts training.  I have come here with only empty hands and the best regards.


----------



## Charles Mahan (Jul 13, 2006)

Yeah that's the point.  What you do that puts you at risk is your business.  Taking a student and putting them at unnecessary risk is bad enough, but taking an audience member and putting the audience member at risk, someone who does not know anything about what's going on and is participating on blind faith alone...  That's just plain irresponsible in the extreme, and speaks very poorly of all involved.

I'm sorry to say this, but it just sounds too much like the goofball watermellon-on-belly cutters.  A vivesection waiting to happen.  Your story stands as a shining example of exactly what NOT to do and what to avoid when looking for somewhere to train.

For those of us less savy on all things KSA, Kwan Jang Nim is apparently a title which is sometimes translated as "Grandmaster".


----------



## Swordlady (Jul 13, 2006)

soul_sword34 said:
			
		

> Kwang Jang Nim Kirk I. Koskella formerly a resident of Idaho. President and Founder of the American Song Moo Kwan Association, Co-Manager of the World Song Moo Kwan Association, under the Ro, Hee Sang (Son of Song Moo Kwan's founder). Executive Vice President of Grand Master Bong Soo Han's International Hapkido Federation, General Secretary of the Worldwide Martial Arts Association (Korea), and United states Chairman of the World Haidong Gumdo Federation.
> 
> I hope that's enough background.
> 
> ...



So...you were serious about your sensei throwing shuriken at you?  Not a huge mistake for you to mention it; that was downright STUPID of your sensei.  Sorry to be so blunt, but anyone who uses members of the audience to hold a piece of paper while he's _cutting_ it - and throws shuriken at his students - sounds *just* a bit...off.  No amount of martial art credentials, titles, and so on, justifies obviously foolish and dangerous behavior.

Personally, I think you need to find another sensei before you or someone else gets injured or killed.


----------



## Charles Mahan (Jul 13, 2006)

Forgive me Dustin, but when I hear a name that is supposed to be high and mighty in the sword arts world I get curious.  Do you have any references that I can check?  Anywhere I can read up a little?

Google searches aren't proving very useful.  A search of E-budo and Sword Forum turned up squat.  

Google turned up the following link http://www.kscourts.org/CA10/cases/2004/12/04-4053.htm  The middle initial is correct and this was filed in Utah.


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 14, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> So...you were serious about your sensei throwing shuriken at you? Not a huge mistake for you to mention it; that was downright STUPID of your sensei. Sorry to be so blunt, but anyone who uses members of the audience to hold a piece of paper while he's _cutting_ it - and throws shuriken at his students - sounds *just* a bit...off. No amount of martial art credentials, titles, and so on, justifies obviously foolish and dangerous behavior.
> 
> Personally, I think you need to find another sensei before you or someone else gets injured or killed.


 
Agreed.  I'd refuse cutting the paper but must admit that catching, razor sharp, shuriken was fun.  

The first one I caught very easily, between my palms,  we were discussing energy, white lotus societies, inner schools, dark figures standing on Korean mountain tops watching the Song Moo Kwan train, when all of a sudden he threw a moon shaped shuriken.  I caught it and thought "wow!!!!".  Then he threw another, I caught it.  The third one stuck into my hand, as well as the fourth as I rose to my feet, spinning and catching them one by one, fifth shuriken, sixth, seventh shuriken as I dropped each one they kept coming at my heart, he held up two at once and I put up both hands and I can still hear myself, "whoaaahhh!"  He asked me, "why are you bleeding?"  I replied "because the shuriken stuck into my hands".  He asked me "why did the shuriken stick into your hands you seemed to catch the first few".  I said because "I was afraid". "Aha!" he said.  Koskella said "In the beginning you were clear and relaxed and then the more that came at you, you became tense and clouded with overwhelming thoughts and now you are bleeding".  He asked, "are you okay?".  I looked at my hands and said, "yes".  The shuriken only punctured my palms maybe 1/4 of an inch.  I remember the drops of blood falling to the hardwood floor and feeling as if I needed to clean the blood.  Koskella then asked me to sit as he tossed me a roll of cotton gauze and tape.  I sat in seiza while bandaging my superficial shuriken wounds and listened.  He asked me, "what would you do when your enemy overwhelms your mind just like the shuriken?".  He spoke of a story about nature that I still don't get to this day it involves a master teacher a student and a "stupid bird".  He spoke about how to listen to your surroundings and to feel the rhythym of footsteps.  He taught how you can see behind yourself without seeing and how to see with your eyes shut.  I must admit I learned a lot from that day.  Just to be honest.  Stupid?  Yeah you could say that but it still is valuable to me now.


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 14, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Forgive me Dustin, but when I hear a name that is supposed to be high and mighty in the sword arts world I get curious. Do you have any references that I can check? Anywhere I can read up a little?
> 
> Google searches aren't proving very useful. A search of E-budo and Sword Forum turned up squat.
> 
> Google turned up the following link http://www.kscourts.org/CA10/cases/2004/12/04-4053.htm The middle initial is correct and this was filed in Utah.


 
Mr. Mahan, unfortunately if you type in Kirk I. Koskella you will indeed come up with the above link.  And several others.  This is the fate of our "Grandmaster".  I am deeply ashamed and am now a Ronin.  I have just recently in these past two weeks picked up the sword again.  I have been in a deep hibernation, alcohol involved, for two years picking up the pieces of my broken heart.  

I used Google and came up with the same results.  With the Yahoo search engine I found more.  Try "kirk koskella song moo kwan" and that should give you a path.  A few other names I can give you is Bong Soo Han, Randal Lance and James D. Wohlwend out of Utah.  I can furnish more information but my Senior Student Manual is in storage right now.  Also try a search for "masters of the martial arts + koskella", that should give you a picture of him with Wesley Snipes, Bong Soo Han and Jhoon Rhee.


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 14, 2006)




----------



## Swordlady (Jul 14, 2006)

soul_sword34 said:
			
		

>



Um...who are these people?

You mentioned being in "deep hibernation" with "alcohol involved".  Sorry about having to leave your instructor, though I maintain that his practices aren't safe all all.  Just make sure that you're _not_ drinking before picking up the sword again.


----------



## Charles Mahan (Jul 14, 2006)

Ok.  This thread has gotten hopelessly offtopic.  SwordLady, would you mind splitting the discussion of Sword_Soul's background out of this thread.


----------



## howard (Jul 14, 2006)

soul_sword34 said:
			
		

> Foolishness?


Yes, Dustin, foolishness.

Cutting oranges and snuffing candles is not the same as having somebody hold paper while another person cuts it with a live blade.

Maybe you didn't hear me the first time, so I'll repeat... foolishness.  All of your stories notwithstanding.


----------



## howard (Jul 14, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> For those of us less savy on all things KSA, Kwan Jang Nim is apparently a title which is sometimes translated as "Grandmaster".


Charles, a kwanjang is simply a person who owns or manages a martial arts school.  The "nim" suffix is an honorific, like the last syllable in sahbeomnim (typically translated into English as "master").

There is no Korean equivalent for "Grandmaster".  That is a term that seems to have been invented in America.  Now we have "Great Grandmasters", "Supreme Grandmasters", "Eternal Grandmasters", "Perpetual Grandmasters", etc... whereas the Koreans themselves are content with kwanjangnim and chongsanim (heads of kwans).


----------



## howard (Jul 14, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Um...who are these people?


The gentleman on the left sure looks like Joon Rhee, a famous figure in the introduction of Tae Kwon Do to the US.  The gentleman with the white hair may be Bong Soo Han, a well-known Hapkido master who lives in California, if I'm not mistaken.  Famous for the "Billy Jack" movies, in which he did the kicking scenes as a double for the protagonist.

Of course, being in the company of such well-respected men does not justify having students cut paper with live blades while another holds it.

If you would like to see some information about a legitimate Korean sword art, please visit www.jungkikwan.com, and have a look at the Kuhapdo section.  The chongsa of the kwan, GM Lim Hyun Soo, is a student of Komei Sekiguchi sensei, the 21st headmaster of one of the branches of MJER.  You will see photos of those two together on the website.


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 14, 2006)

howard said:
			
		

> Yes, Dustin, foolishness.
> 
> Cutting oranges and snuffing candles is not the same as having somebody hold paper while another person cuts it with a live blade.
> 
> Maybe you didn't hear me the first time, so I'll repeat... foolishness. All of your stories notwithstanding.


 
Why do I get a feeling I'm talking to a troll?  Point of this thread people.  I'm done with this defense.  Don't play with swords they are not toys.  I'm going to start a debate thread on sword training and my credibility if anyone would like to join me. Thank you. End.


----------



## Swordlady (Jul 14, 2006)

soul_sword34 said:
			
		

> Why do I get a feeling I'm talking to a troll?  Point of this thread people.  I'm done with this defense.  Don't play with swords they are not toys.  I'm going to start a debate thread on sword training and my credibility if anyone would like to join me. Thank you. End.



How was Howard's post "troll-like"?  You were the one who told us stories about your sensei cutting a piece of paper out of a audience member's hands, and throwing shuriken at you.  All unsafe practices.


----------



## Andrew Green (Jul 14, 2006)

*Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Andrew Green
-MT Moderator-*


----------

