# An interesting realistic read about M.A.



## Hyoho (Apr 15, 2017)

Martial arts and the cycle of ******** - Charlie's Diary

_*Martial arts and the cycle of *********
* By Tricia Sullivan *
Hello, everyone. Charlie has kindly invited me to post here because I am a science fiction writer. But for the next four guest posts I'm going to be talking about fighting, martial arts, the media, and women. I have a lot to say. In this first post I'll give you an idea of where I'm coming from when I'm talking about fighting.
(Edited to comply with copyright policy; as always, follow links to original article at your own risk -- jks9199, Administrator)_​


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## CB Jones (Apr 15, 2017)

It is an infomercial for Steve Morris website and DVDs...written by the websites administrator.


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## drop bear (Apr 15, 2017)

Yeah.  We just dragged 5 people from basically off the street into a ring fight.

It is always and interesting experience for me.  

It blows a lot of accepted theory out of the water.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2017)

First, I don't think you should post the entire article. Link to it. Copyright and stuff.

Second, I'm reasonably sure this was posted here before.

Third, it makes a big assumption. The assumption is that martial arts training has one purpose, which is fighting.

Fourth, it makes a slightly smaller assumption that 'real' fighting is MMA style, and that therefore everyone should train MMA. 

I don't care for it.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 15, 2017)

An interesting read, although not really anything new. MMA and UFC fighters/extremists have been saying all that stuff for years. That said, my stance on it is that if you are purely training for "real world combat", unless you are in a profession that exposes you to violence on a regular basis (i.e. police or military) then you shouldn't be getting into lots of fights. You could go through your whole life and have maybe 1-2 real fights. So you are training for years and years and years, putting tons of times and money into it for an event that may never happen. What a waste of time! To me, Martial Arts is about more than just fighting, and the actual fighting part is a very small portion of it all. I pity people who obsess about their "fighting prowess" and worry over how well they will do in a "real fight".


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## geezer (Apr 15, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I pity people who obsess about their "fighting prowess" and worry over how well they will do in a "real fight".



Agreed.

If you are young, athletic and want to compete, a lot of heavy sparring makes perfect sense. If you are a soldier, LEO, or security professional, realistic training against tough, resisting partners makes perfect sense. If you are a smaller, frail, or older person, who doesn't get into problem situations, perhaps a more balanced approach making martial arts a _healthful hobby _makes more sense?

As a 5'8", 61 year-old Geezer, I still like to mix it up on occasion ...with friends who can beat me without hurting me too much. I don't need to be able to best a 22 year old MMA competitor or some street thug. _That's _a fantasy!

Face it, for most people _functional self-defense _is not about being able beat an aggressor in a physical confrontation. As most of us know, its about _awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and escape_ first. If it becomes physical, you have already messed-up, even if you "win"!

More so where I live. A lot of people here carry guns. Openly or concealed. No license or permit is necessary. Arizona also has very loose laws about knives. But if you actually _use _a weapon and injure or kill, the law can treat you very harshly. Even in situations_ you_ might consider "self-defense". We are also a death-penalty state, and failing that "life with no parole" is a common option in the courts!


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## Danny T (Apr 15, 2017)

She does preface with:
_"Most people think of martial arts and fighting as being more or less synonymous. I see them as a Venn diagram of two sets that overlap by a tiny margin. This is because most martial artists don't fight and their training isn't directly based on what happens in a fight."
_
I can agree with much of that.


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## Hyoho (Apr 15, 2017)

As someone else made a comment on another group: It raises and point out issues with training in a "static" environment.

It also raises questions as to what a violent conflict really is and how a game ("sport") is commonly thought to be reality, which it isn't.

But I would not identify with MMA either. All this stuff has rules, even MMA


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## jobo (Apr 16, 2017)

its just another hatchet job, cleverly weaving negative thought in to peoples head
its like a religion, blind faith
its sexist women made to train with children
high risk of sexual assault
higher ranks of tma begging him for help
black belts being beaten up by beginners
escapist fantasy
impossible to systemise fighting which of course it isn't
running a dojo is burying your head in the sand

all given as true experiences', which they may or may not be. But non actually indicative of tma as a whole.
its what people call a strawman argument. Where you create imaginary weakness and then attack those, rather the actual truth


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 16, 2017)

jobo said:


> its just another hatchet job, cleverly weaving negative thought in to peoples head
> its like a religion, blind faith
> its sexist women made to train with children
> high risk of sexual assault
> ...



I think in all of this we need to make the distinction between a person who is unable to fight, and a system that is unable to fight. As noted in the article, most TMA practitioners don't train their Martial Arts to fight in the "real world", but that doesn't mean the system they are training in is unsuitable for "real world" fighting. It all comes down to the focus of your training that defines whether you can use it in actual combat or not. For example, the Israeli special forces train in Krav Maga for use in actual combat, whereas most civilians don't train this way. Same system, but a completely different focus. A similar thing could be said of the Shaolin Monks. They train purely for performance and fitness purposes, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could train to use the exact same techniques in "real" combat and be just as effective as any UFC fighter. Just because they don't train to fight in a "real world" scenario doesn't mean their system is useless.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> As someone else made a comment on another group: It raises and point out issues with training in a "static" environment.



Only if one insists that training has only one purpose.



> It also raises questions as to what a violent conflict really is and how a game ("sport") is commonly thought to be reality, which it isn't.



I don't know anyone who mistakes traditional martial arts training with a real violent conflict.



> But I would not identify with MMA either. All this stuff has rules, even MMA



The article is little more than yet another attempted expose of traditional martial arts training, of the "Everything you are doing is wrong" variety. Boring and stupid.


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## jobo (Apr 16, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I think in all of this we need to make the distinction between a person who is unable to fight, and a system that is unable to fight. As noted in the article, most TMA practitioners don't train their Martial Arts to fight in the "real world", but that doesn't mean the system they are training in is unsuitable for "real world" fighting. It all comes down to the focus of your training that defines whether you can use it in actual combat or not. For example, the Israeli special forces train in Krav Maga for use in actual combat, whereas most civilians don't train this way. Same system, but a completely different focus. A similar thing could be said of the Shaolin Monks. They train purely for performance and fitness purposes, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could train to use the exact same techniques in "real" combat and be just as effective as any UFC fighter. Just because they don't train to fight in a "real world" scenario doesn't mean their system is useless.


I think we are roughly in agreement, but a few points to emphasise. I think most? artist expect their system to provided defence skills, otherwise they would be doing rumba , all of the tma will provide robust defence skills if you have the physicality to use them, they are more or less useless if you dont. But that is equally true of what ever system you are considering, including what ever this guy is selling.
KM is extremely effective if you are 22 and just passed basic training for the israeli army. Less so if you are 45 over weight , have to sit down to tie your shoe laces and can't climb a flight of steps with out getting out of breath .


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## jobo (Apr 16, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I think in all of this we need to make the distinction between a person who is unable to fight, and a system that is unable to fight. As noted in the article, most TMA practitioners don't train their Martial Arts to fight in the "real world", but that doesn't mean the system they are training in is unsuitable for "real world" fighting. It all comes down to the focus of your training that defines whether you can use it in actual combat or not. For example, the Israeli special forces train in Krav Maga for use in actual combat, whereas most civilians don't train this way. Same system, but a completely different focus. A similar thing could be said of the Shaolin Monks. They train purely for performance and fitness purposes, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could train to use the exact same techniques in "real" combat and be just as effective as any UFC fighter. Just because they don't train to fight in a "real world" scenario doesn't mean their system is useless.


I think we are roughly in agreement, but a few points to emphasise. I think most? artist expect their system to provided defence skills, otherwise they would be doing rumba , all of the tma will provide robust defence skills if you have the physicality to use them, they are more or less useless if you dont. But that is equally true of what ever system you are considering, including what ever this guy is selling.
KM is extremely effective if you are 22 and just passed basic training for the israeli army. Less so if you are 45 over weight , have to sit down to tie your shoe laces and can't climb a flight of steps with out getting out of breath .


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I think in all of this we need to make the distinction between a person who is unable to fight, and a system that is unable to fight. As noted in the article, most TMA practitioners don't train their Martial Arts to fight in the "real world", but that doesn't mean the system they are training in is unsuitable for "real world" fighting. It all comes down to the focus of your training that defines whether you can use it in actual combat or not. For example, the Israeli special forces train in Krav Maga for use in actual combat, whereas most civilians don't train this way. Same system, but a completely different focus. A similar thing could be said of the Shaolin Monks. They train purely for performance and fitness purposes, but I'm sure that if they wanted to they could train to use the exact same techniques in "real" combat and be just as effective as any UFC fighter. Just because they don't train to fight in a "real world" scenario doesn't mean their system is useless.



If you can use traditional martial arts training to block a head punch and counter, you're a thousand percent beyond the average person on the street. There are street thugs who can fight and like to. I am highly unlikely to ever meet any of them. If that was the reason I trained, I'd carry a gun.


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## CB Jones (Apr 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The article is little more than yet another attempted expose of traditional martial arts training, of the "Everything you are doing is wrong" variety. Boring and stupid.



Disagree

This article is nothing more than an advertisement for SM's new website in an attempt to increase traffic, solicit donations, sell DVDs, generate views to his monetized Youtube videos, and advertise private lessons written by SM's partner and website administrator.


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## jobo (Apr 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't know anyone who mistakes traditional martial arts training with a real violent conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> .


why ever not, dealing with real real violence is exactly what they were designed to. If I have to be critical of traditional arts as they are trained in 21st century Western countries, its that they are not traditional enough  . The pain, effort and physical commitment have been watered down to fit the soft life styles we all enjoy. People want things but arnt prepared to put the effort in to truly achieve them, so they end up with a watered down copy


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Disagree
> 
> This article is nothing more than an advertisement for SM's new website in an attempt to increase traffic, solicit donations, sell DVDs, generate views to his monetized Youtube videos, and advertise private lessons written by SM's partner and website administrator.



Ah. I somehow missed that. Thanks!


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If you can use traditional martial arts training to block a head punch and counter, you're a thousand percent beyond the average person on the street. There are street thugs who can fight and like to. I am highly unlikely to ever meet any of them. If that was the reason I trained, I'd carry a gun.



The system I train in contains 3 different blocks that could block a head punch and if I wanted to I could have someone punch me in the head over and over until I learned to block it every time. But then what would be the point if I never had to use it in a real fight? I am fortunate to live in a pretty safe area and avoid situations that could get me into trouble, so chances are i'll never have to use such a technique for real.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> The system I train in contains 3 different blocks that could block a head punch and if I wanted to I could have someone punch me in the head over and over until I learned to block it every time. But then what would be the point if I never had to use it in a real fight? I am fortunate to live in a pretty safe area and avoid situations that could get me into trouble, so chances are i'll never have to use such a technique for real.



I live in a pretty safe area also, but near a not-so-nice one, and I have to drive through part of it on my may to and from the dojo.  If my car broke down or I got into a fender-bender, I might find myself in a bad situation.

However, my point was and remains - anyone who had trained seriously in most styles of martial arts is worlds ahead of anyone who had not and who is not also a good street fighter.  It is not just 'better than nothing' it's way better than most things.  Just being able to block the most commonly-thrown punch (the haymaker) and counter is a huge advantage in terms of self-defense.

When people tell me that they want to learn self-defense only, and in the shortest possible time, I tell them to take boxing lessons.  It's good for that.  Really good.

As to why learn blocks I will never use?  Who says I will never use them?  And who says they are for self-defense only?  You'd be amazed at the lessons learned along the road to learning really good blocks which have nothing to do with martial arts.


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## Hyoho (Apr 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I live in a pretty safe area also, but near a not-so-nice one, and I have to drive through part of it on my may to and from the dojo.  If my car broke down or I got into a fender-bender, I might find myself in a bad situation.
> 
> However, my point was and remains - anyone who had trained seriously in most styles of martial arts is worlds ahead of anyone who had not and who is not also a good street fighter.  It is not just 'better than nothing' it's way better than most things.  Just being able to block the most commonly-thrown punch (the haymaker) and counter is a huge advantage in terms of self-defense.
> 
> ...



Well I got into a bit of trouble for streets fight before I did MA. Never really looked at it as defence. More of a release valve to work things off that turned into a cultural pursuit. 

Where I live now is nice. I am in mountain jungle. Everyone walks around with machetes. It's used as tool. But they won't hesitate to draw it if there is trouble and still carry them when they are drunk. Also, a lot of crime here now is perpetrated after they have taken crystal meth. So you need some stopping power.  

Two friends shot dead by riding in tandem shooters within seven months, one a retired marine because they upset locals. Riding in tandem cost 200 USD or less. That's the way they deal with things nowadays.

I have been set on in a dark alleyway late at night in the city by two and dealt with it. But what I did I would not classify as MA. There was nothing artistic about it.  No referee and no rules. 

My best defence is a big smile and not make enemies in the first place.


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## JP3 (Apr 16, 2017)

I can agree with the premise that a majority of martial artists can't "fight," if you are considering a fight as being something that looks like an MMA match.  Well, fight well would probably be a better statement.

I also agree that the majority of martial artists are really not training to fight.  LEO and military training is and should be more brutal in the training method so as to build survivability in those societal roles.... but it's hard to keep a school open with that level of training with your regular, vanilla civilian. Sure, there are hard cases out there that can take it with a  smile, but most folks are just plain folks who aren't interested.


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## drop bear (Apr 16, 2017)

Not that they can't fight.  Don't really even understand how fighting even really works. 

They have this Disney version. 

I would have thought how fighting works would interest martial artists.


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## JP3 (Apr 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Not that they can't fight.  Don't really even understand how fighting even really works.
> 
> They have this Disney version.
> 
> I would have thought how fighting works would interest martial artists.


I would, too. However, your & my image of what should probably be of interest to "martial artists" is apparently different than at least 3 out of 4 of them on the planet.

It just means that the minority can, if needed to do so, wipe the floor with them.

Maybe some of the bad guys are going to a new-named Cobra Kai school and they think that fighting is like sparring in class, and they are going to take their newly learned skillset, including the fantastic new tornado kick they saw that guy do on youtube and use it to mug me.  We're weird, Drop. Just admit it.


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## Danny T (Apr 16, 2017)

In my many years of experience most persons I have encountered in the martial arts aren't in it for fighting. Many like the idea of learning something about fighting or the idea of physically being able to defend themselves however, the idea most have is nothing near the reality. 
As an instructor my job is to find out what the student is looking for and if I want to keep him/her as a student do what is necessary to meet their expectations.
People come to the martial arts for many different reasons, goals, and expectations. For some it is to fight.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I would, too. However, your & my image of what should probably be of interest to "martial artists" is apparently different than at least 3 out of 4 of them on the planet.
> 
> It just means that the minority can, if needed to do so, wipe the floor with them.
> 
> Maybe some of the bad guys are going to a new-named Cobra Kai school and they think that fighting is like sparring in class, and they are going to take their newly learned skillset, including the fantastic new tornado kick they saw that guy do on youtube and use it to mug me.  We're weird, Drop. Just admit it.



You are welcome to drop by my dojo anytime. Since you can wipe the floor with me, you should enjoy your visit.


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## JP3 (Apr 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You are welcome to drop by my dojo anytime. Since you can wipe the floor with me, you should enjoy your visit.


Since when did you start going to a Cobra Kai clone school, Bill?  Last I knew, Isshin Ryu  was very street-savvy and didn't have tornado kicks as part of the style.

Ah, I get it. You're ruffled because I was agreeing with Drop when I wrote, "However, your & my image of what should probably be of interest to "martial artists" is apparently different than at least 3 out of 4 of them on the planet.  It just means that the minority can, if needed to do so, wipe the floor with them."  I would say that you are in said minority.  All one needs to do is read one of your posts on the solo work on stance, hand strikes combined with posture and body alignment to know that.  Further, I have had the opportunity to work with a local Isshin Ryu school on a couple of occasions and I find them to know what a fight ends up being like, i.e. ugly.  

So, let me ask you this, since I rubbed you the wrong way... Do you think that the average McDojo has any intention of truly learning to fight, as in dirty street fight, truly effectively.  I would offer that the answer is probably not, but that they either are not interested, or actually do think that they do know what it is going to be like.  Then consider how many McDojos are out there, with probably not so good teachers.  You yourself were trying to get recommendations for a good school recently. If all of them were good, effective, and skilled at passing along knowledge, could you not simply use a phone book?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2017)

My belief is that people train for many different reasons. But as far as self-defense goes, a solid upper body block punch is far more effective than no training at all. McDojos can, I believe, handle that much. Doesn't make them great fighters; they don't typically have to be.


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## JP3 (Apr 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> My belief is that people train for many different reasons. But as far as self-defense goes, a solid upper body block punch is far more effective than no training at all. McDojos can, I believe, handle that much. Doesn't make them great fighters; they don't typically have to be.


Agreed. The above also does not take into account the large percentage of martial artists who really have no real interest in learning to fight, at all. Not in a real sense.

I've a friend who is now... I think godan in Iaido. Is she a martial artist? Absolutely. Is she hella-effective witht hat sword, which has a live edge. Indeed. But, can she carry her live blade around with her unless she is on the way to/from a training experience? Not in Texas, anyway. So, she's not training to fight, nor does she care to do so.

To your point about a solid upper body block punch.  I would like to think that a McDojo can handle that, sure. Would I want to watch and make certain - especially if one of my own was going to train there? Definitely.  People do train for many varied reasons, nearly all of them valid and beneficial.  My godan friend is an example.  The oldsters in the local park going through Tai Chi practice in the morning, another. The college judo team, another. It's all good.  My thought of concern is for those who "train, and "think" they can really do something they can't, and are building in a false belief system.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Not that they can't fight.  Don't really even understand how fighting even really works.
> 
> They have this Disney version.
> 
> I would have thought how fighting works would interest martial artists.


This is where I'm at.  For me it is almost like a study on how fighting works.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You are welcome to drop by my dojo anytime. Since you can wipe the floor with me, you should enjoy your visit.


Lol when old people say stuff like that it makes me not want to spar with them.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol when old people say stuff like that it makes me not want to spar with them.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 16, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


>


Pretty much.  Young guys like to bark. Old guys keep that weird calm and are always trying lure someone into a false sense of security in regards to fighting skills.  I don't like mystery bags. Lol


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## JP3 (Apr 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol when old people say stuff like that it makes me not want to spar with them.


Bingo. My first aikido instructor as an adult had an email signature he'd use for a while.  "Old age & treachery always overcome youth & skill."

Don't fight with old guys. Old guys don't fight, they just kill you.  That's something my dad, who was 101st Airborne told me that his Master Sergeant was fond of saying. That's true too.


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## JP3 (Apr 20, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Bingo. My first aikido instructor as an adult had an email signature he'd use for a while.  "Old age & treachery always overcome youth & skill."
> 
> Don't fight with old guys. Old guys don't fight, they just kill you.  That's something my dad, who was 101st Airborne told me that his Master Sergeant was fond of saying. That's true too.


OK, I've got to ask. TSDTexan, what's not to like about the above post?


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## Hanzou (Apr 21, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> An interesting read, although not really anything new. MMA and UFC fighters/extremists have been saying all that stuff for years. That said, my stance on it is that if you are purely training for "real world combat", unless you are in a profession that exposes you to violence on a regular basis (i.e. police or military) then you shouldn't be getting into lots of fights. You could go through your whole life and have maybe 1-2 real fights. So you are training for years and years and years, putting tons of times and money into it for an event that may never happen. What a waste of time! To me, Martial Arts is about more than just fighting, and the actual fighting part is a very small portion of it all. I pity people who obsess about their "fighting prowess" and worry over how well they will do in a "real fight".



Well I work in a profession that exposes me to violence (high school teacher in the inner city). I've had to use Bjj a few times to defend myself, and subdue a would-be attacker without seriously hurting them. Frankly without Bjj, I'd probably be dead or severely handicapped. Fortunately I took up a style that teaches you how to actually fight, instead of taking up a style that spends an inordinate amount of time teaching lofty philosophy and rhetorical Asian nonsense.

I took up Bjj initially to learn how to fight, and to get myself in shape to be capable of fighting. Bjj has taught me that, and pushed me to live a fairly healthy lifestyle. When my children (especially my daughters) come of age, I will push them to learn Bjj as well. They truly shouldn't waste their time learning BS that isn't going to teach them how to properly fight back if someone is accosting them.


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## drop bear (Apr 21, 2017)

I think the unlikely I am ever going to use martial arts is a bit of a cop out.

I own a personal locator beacon. Which is a bloody expensive piece of kit that sends an emergency signal so if I get lost, someone can come find me. 

Really good for the motorbike trips.

Now I am very unlikley to ever need it. But I still expect the thing to work if I did.  

I am just not sure how that could ever be a reason for a faulty product.


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## jobo (Apr 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I think the unlikely I am ever going to use martial arts is a bit of a cop out.
> 
> I own a personal locator beacon. Which is a bloody expensive piece of kit that sends an emergency signal so if I get lost, someone can come find me.
> 
> ...


 I dont think. That's a fair comparison. Though I think learning to not get lost is a better idea. MARTIAL are only as effective as the martial artist is committed/ talented . If they don't work the fault is largely with the individual . It would be like taking golf lessons and then complaining you cant win the open


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## Hanzou (Apr 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> I dont think. That's a fair comparison. Though I think learning to not get lost is a better idea. MARTIAL are only as effective as the martial artist is committed/ talented . If they don't work the fault is largely with the individual . It would be like taking golf lessons and then complaining you cant win the open



That's assuming your golf instructor knows how to play golf. He could be a charlatan or lacking in good golfing skills. If that's the case, you could have all the intention in the world to be good at golf, but you'll never be good at it.

I've been to some pretty shady MA schools in my time. Those types of places are teaching pure nonsense for a buck and an ego boost.


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## Balrog (Apr 21, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Martial arts and the cycle of ******** - Charlie's Diary
> 
> _*Martial arts and the cycle of *********
> * By Tricia Sullivan *
> ...


Somewhat interesting, but in the long run, we've been kicking this basic concept around the forum, off and on, ever since I joined it (and probably long before).


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## jobo (Apr 21, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> That's assuming your golf instructor knows how to play golf. He could be a charlatan or lacking in good golfing skills. If that's the case, you could have all the intention in the world to be good at golf, but you'll never be good at it.
> 
> I've been to some pretty shady MA schools in my time. Those types of places are teaching pure nonsense for a buck and an ego boost.


its hard to see how it can go wrong, you learn to punch and kick and block/ move, if your talented that all you need, if your not, it doesn't matter who your teacher is, you will be lucky to reach fairly poor


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> My belief is that people train for many different reasons. But as far as self-defense goes, a solid upper body block punch is far more effective than no training at all. McDojos can, I believe, handle that much. Doesn't make them great fighters; they don't typically have to be.


Some McDojos get that far. Some don't. There's one near me that I classify in that group. I've seen their demos, and even in demo mode they look inept. Their "flashy" stuff (what most break out for demos) looks like a yellow-belt karateka designed it. A yellow belt with bad stances, almost no effective movement/footwork, poor timing, and weak blocks...for a yellow belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> its hard to see how it can go wrong, you learn to punch and kick and block/ move, if your talented that all you need, if your not, it doesn't matter who your teacher is, you will be lucky to reach fairly poor


I agree with the first half, and disagree with the last half, Jobo. My primary instructor was awful when he started. His instructor (my first instructor in NGA) actually referred to him as "Frankenstein" because of his clunky movement. He developed into a very competent martial artist, an above-average technician (not among the best, by his own standards), and a good instructor.


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## jobo (Apr 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Some McDojos get that far. Some don't. There's one near me that I classify in that group. I've seen their demos, and even in demo mode they look inept. Their "flashy" stuff (what most break out for demos) looks like a yellow-belt karateka designed it. A yellow belt with bad stances, almost no effective movement/footwork, poor timing, and weak blocks...for a yellow belt.


, but you have to look at value added, these mcdojo are a dumping ground for social inept un co ordinated un athletic types. They may have made a significant improvement just to get to ineffective


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> I dont think. That's a fair comparison. Though I think learning to not get lost is a better idea. MARTIAL are only as effective as the martial artist is committed/ talented . If they don't work the fault is largely with the individual . It would be like taking golf lessons and then complaining you cant win the open


I think it would be more like taking golf lessons and complaining that you still can't play golf. Someone can be a decent golfer (which, to most golfers, would be someone who can break 90 from time to time) and have no hope of ever winning a tournament, much less the Open. To win the Open (whichever you prefer to refer to), one probably needs some inherent talent and physicality. To win a local tournament, one needs either that physicality and some time, or less physicality and a lot more time and good training. To be able to beat most people on the course, one needs the ability to keep the ball in bounds on the long shots, and get on the green reliably with the short shots. I think that's a fair analogy for what some are saying about what's most necessary in MA for defense against most people.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> , but you have to look at value added, these are mcdojo are dumping ground for social inept un co ordinated un athletic types. They may have made a significant improvement just to get to ineffective


Except that I'd lump the black belts and instructor into almost the same pile. I saw nothing that looked like skill, except from one actual yellow belt, who was either highly talented or had some TKD training (more likely, since he was kicking differently from everyone else).

My issue with the school is that they claim to be teaching effective skills for defensive use. And they aren't. Not a single student appears to have that (again, excepting that one yellow belt who appears to have other training). Yes, they probably aren't attracting the most talented people. But I've taught some very awkward students, and they are able to learn (eventually) all of our techniques, even some of the more technical ones. Will they ever be as good as someone with natural talent? Probably not, but they can get beyond sucking at it.


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## Steve (Apr 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> I dont think. That's a fair comparison. Though I think learning to not get lost is a better idea. MARTIAL are only as effective as the martial artist is committed/ talented . If they don't work the fault is largely with the individual . It would be like taking golf lessons and then complaining you cant win the open


No one thinks that the goal of martial arts is to win the UFC belt.  The goal is to be able to better defend oneself.

If you play golf and take lessons, you will surely become a better golfer over time.   How good will depend on your aptitude, fitness level, age and commitment.

if you train in any competitive style, you will surely learn to fight using those skills.   How good will depend.  

If you want a clue about what a style is really teaching you, look at the way that style is tested.   If the test involves measurable, objective evaluation of your skill in context, such as through sparring and competition, that is what you are actually learning.   Good and bad.  That's what you're getting better at doing.

If the test involves kata, two step drills and light contact "sparring" then that is what you're learning and getting better at doing.  Good and bad.

Some styles do all of that, and more power to them.  Point is, you are learning what you are doing, and not learning what you are not doing.   I know it seems obvious, but we hear otherwise around here all the time.


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## Hanzou (Apr 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> its hard to see how it can go wrong, you learn to punch and kick and block/ move, if your talented that all you need, if your not, it doesn't matter who your teacher is, you will be lucky to reach fairly poor



Oh it can go very, very wrong....


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## Steve (Apr 21, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> My belief is that people train for many different reasons. But as far as self-defense goes, a solid upper body block punch is far more effective than no training at all. McDojos can, I believe, handle that much. Doesn't make them great fighters; they don't typically have to be.


That's a questionable leap.  It's like giving a person a cook book, an apron, some pots and pans, and asking them to learn to cook in a make believe kitchen.  Put them in a real kitchen and they might be able to make a meal, even a simple one.  But probably not.

And if you ask them to do it in a professional kitchen under pressure, on their own, with no mistakes the very first time, they will surely flounder.   This is because they have never really learned the foundational skills.   They have only visualized and gone through the motions.  

A competitive martial artist can have gaps, but they are applying skills in context and under pressure.   They are more like the home cook.  Put a home cook in a professional kitchen and they will have a clear leg up on the pretend cook.   How well they do will depend on how experienced they are cooking at home.   ask them to do something they have never done, and they're in the same boat as the pretend cook, with one exception.   They will be self aware.   And if you ask them to cook something they're familiar with, they will do just fine.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2017)

Steve said:


> That's a questionable leap.  It's like giving a person a cook book, an apron, some pots and pans, and asking them to learn to cook in a make believe kitchen.  Put them in a real kitchen and they might be able to make a meal, even a simple one.  But probably not.
> 
> And if you ask them to do it in a professional kitchen under pressure, on their own, with no mistakes the very first time, they will surely flounder.   This is because they have never really learned the foundational skills.   They have only visualized and gone through the motions.
> 
> A competitive martial artist can have gaps, but they are applying skills in context and under pressure.   They are more like the home cook.  Put a home cook in a professional kitchen and they will have a clear leg up on the pretend cook.   How well they do will depend on how experienced they are cooking at home.   ask them to do something they have never done, and they're in the same boat as the pretend cook, with one exception.   They will be self aware.   And if you ask them to cook something they're familiar with, they will do just fine.


I like that analogy, Steve. It's an excellent explanation of your point.


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## drop bear (Apr 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> I dont think. That's a fair comparison. Though I think learning to not get lost is a better idea. MARTIAL are only as effective as the martial artist is committed/ talented . If they don't work the fault is largely with the individual . It would be like taking golf lessons and then complaining you cant win the open



Or it would be like taking golf lessons from me getting whupped at every level and coming to the conclusion you are not a natural golfer. 

Certainly not the conclusion I can't teach golf. 

Must be your fault.


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## jobo (Apr 21, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Oh it can go very, very wrong....


what's wrong with that?


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## Hanzou (Apr 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> what's wrong with that?



Sloppy technique, poor coordination, lackluster standards, poor stances, and a host of other things.

If my former karate teacher saw a black belt perform kata and sparring like that, he'd probably rip the belt off of them and demote them a few ranks.

Seriously, what's the difference between that above and this:






??


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## Buka (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Oh it can go very, very wrong....



I frickn' love these guys.Seriously, more than Master Ken, even.


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Sloppy technique, poor coordination, lackluster standards, poor stances, and a host of other things.
> 
> If my former karate teacher saw a black belt perform kata and sparring like that, he'd probably rip the belt off of them and demote them a few ranks.





Hanzou said:


> Sloppy technique, poor coordination, lackluster standards, poor stances, and a host of other things.
> 
> If my former karate teacher saw a black belt perform kata and sparring like that, he'd probably rip the belt off of them and demote them a few ranks.
> 
> ...


they are clearly unco ordinated and un athletic. The question that needs answering is if they would be much better if they had better teaching, id say no, they still wouldnt be able to kick above knee height


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> they are clearly unco ordinated and un athletic. The question that needs answering is if they would be much better if they had better teaching, id say no, they still wouldnt be able to kick above knee height



I'd say yes.

The only way an entire group of people end up like that is poor teaching and low standards. Better quality instruction leads to better quality results.

Here's another example (and I think it's the same school);






Again, that's what happens when you get piss-poor instruction.


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

Here is how a kata demo should look (idealy);






Clearly not everyone can achieve the level of a pro-team, but that should be the standard.


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## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Clearly not everyone can achieve the level of a pro-team, but that should be the standard.


The video is of the final between two three man teams.  I don't think a level so high that only six people can achieve it is "standard".  If this is just standard, what counts as exceptional?


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'd say yes.
> 
> The only way an entire group of people end up like that is poor teaching and low standards. Better quality instruction leads to better quality results.
> 
> ...


 well that's not actually true, karate schools seem to attract people low on athleticism who want to learn to fight. If all they are attracting is uncoordinated dalwks. Then that is what is likely to happen. You cant polish a dog poo


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

Buka said:


> I frickn' love these guys.Seriously, more than Master Ken, even.


Yeah, I watch that from time to time, just to remind myself that - apparently - one can think one is getting serious training, while getting something that looks like part of a bad SNL skit.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> they are clearly unco ordinated and un athletic. The question that needs answering is if they would be much better if they had better teaching, id say no, they still wouldnt be able to kick above knee height


Kicking height isn't the issue, at all. Could they get better with good instruction? Without a doubt. I've seen too many examples of uncoordinated people becoming competent to accept that people are irretrievable simply because they start out badly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'd say yes.
> 
> The only way an entire group of people end up like that is poor teaching and low standards. Better quality instruction leads to better quality results.
> 
> ...


Agreed, on all points. And I think one of the guys in the middle is actually the main character in the first video.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Here is how a kata demo should look (idealy);
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll just say that any group demo of a kata should be focused on getting everyone in sync, rather than speed. Otherwise, why bother with the group?


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Kicking height isn't the issue, at all. Could they get better with good instruction? Without a doubt. I've seen too many examples of uncoordinated people becoming competent to accept that people are irretrievable simply because they start out badly.


yea but you give out belts to people who haven't reached the standard you your self set, as they "deserve it. "Those two stances are not compatable. If every one can improve with good teaching, stop giving belts out and teach them so they actually deserve them


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'll just say that any group demo of a kata should be focused on getting everyone in sync, rather than speed. Otherwise, why bother with the group?


why, that just teaching them sync dancing, an ability to do kata in time with others is of absolutely no use at all, unless you are entering sync kata contests


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> yea but you give out belts to people who haven't reached the standard you your self set, as they "deserve it. "Those two stances are not compatable. If every one can improve with good teaching, stop giving belts out and teach them so they actually deserve them


Nope. You still don't get it, and I'm not going to keep explaining it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> why, that just teaching them sync dancing, an ability to do kata in time with others is of absolutely no use at all, unless you are entering sync kata contests


And what other reason would there be to show a group of people demonstrating the same kata at the same time? Learning to synchronize with a group isn't entirely useless, especially if you're going to use group exercises.


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Nope. You still don't get it, and I'm not going to keep explaining it.


I suspect that's because you are being very judgemental of this group whilst applying a complete different standard to your own teaching


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And what other reason would there be to show a group of people demonstrating the same kata at the same time? Learning to synchronize with a group isn't entirely useless, especially if you're going to use group exercises.


I suspect doing it all together cuts down on the time considerably, but tell me more about how. Doing a sync dance helps with the actual business of using your karate skills,


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> why, that just teaching them sync dancing, an ability to do kata in time with others is of absolutely no use at all, unless you are entering sync kata contests



You'll never find someone more opposed to kata practice than myself. However, if your school is teaching you kata, then poor technical aptitude in kata (among black belts no less) is a clear sign that your school isn't good. That is the real problem; The poor technical ability showcased.

Their technique was poor and that shows poor discipline and low standards. Them not being able to remain in synch (and again these are black belts) is simply icing on the poop cake.


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> You'll never find someone more opposed to kata practice than myself. However, if your school is teaching you kata, then poor technical aptitude in kata (among black belts no less) is a clear sign that your school isn't good. That is the real problem; The poor technical ability showcased.
> 
> Their technique was poor and that shows poor discipline and low standards. Them not being able to remain in synch (and again these are black belts) is simply icing on the poop cake.


so your whole complaint is based around them not being able to do a syn dance, but based on nothing more than yourassumption that is supposed to be in sinc


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> so your whole complaint is based around them not being able to do a syn dance, but based on nothing more than yourassumption that is supposed to be in sinc



Can you read? I said that the MAIN issue was that the technique was poor. Them not being in synch was simply more indication of a variety of problems with their instruction.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'd say yes.
> 
> The only way an entire group of people end up like that is poor teaching and low standards. Better quality instruction leads to better quality results.
> 
> ...


It is the same school, they are probably the worst example of a martial art I have ever seen:

World Martial Arts Association | About


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Can you read? I said that the MAIN issue was that the technique was poor. Them not being in synch was simply more indication of a variety of problems with their instruction.


how exactly have you determined that they are supposed to be in sync


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## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> how exactly have you determined that they are supposed to be in sync



Apparently that doesn't matter.

Usually you want to be in sync so that it is easier for viewers to see the actual techniques

Being out of sync makes it look chaotic and hard for the viewers eyes to follow.


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> It is the same school, they are probably the worst example of a martial art I have ever seen:
> 
> World Martial Arts Association | About


his bio says he has set up many community based martial arts programs to help the under privileged ( read disabled) to gain confidence. And here you lot are mocking them for their accomplishment's


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> how exactly have you determined that they are supposed to be in sync



When you're doing the same kata at the same time, you're supposed to all end at the same time. When you have black belts doing poor technique, avoiding techniques altogether, losing balance, and going through the motions it shows a lack of discipline and standards because black belts are supposed to understand this, and have enough self respect to not look like an embarrassment to their school and their art.



jobo said:


> his bio says he has set up many community based martial arts programs to help the under privileged ( read disabled) to gain confidence. And here you lot are mocking them for their accomplishment's



Underprivileged does not mean disabled. Underpriviledged usually means economically disadvantaged, and there's plenty of Karate schools in poor areas of the country that would run circles around these guys.


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Apparently that doesn't matter.
> 
> Usually you want to be in sync so that it is easier for viewers to see the actual techniques
> 
> Being out of sync makes it look chaotic and hard for the viewers eyes to follow.


yes but its not being done as a spectator sport,


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> When you're doing the same kata at the same time, you're supposed to all end at the same time. When you have black belts doing poor technique, avoiding techniques altogether, losing balance, and going through the motions it shows a lack of discipline and standards because black belts are supposed to understand this, and have enough self respect to not look like an embarrassment to their school and their art.
> 
> 
> 
> Underprivileged does not mean disabled.


it can indeed mean that, it just a Pc way of saying it. Would you feel bad if you had been mocking people with a disability?


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> When you're doing the same kata at the same time, you're supposed to all end at the same time. When you have black belts doing poor technique, avoiding techniques altogether, losing balance, and going through the motions it shows a lack of discipline and standards because black belts are supposed to understand this, and have enough self respect to not look like an embarrassment to their school and their art.
> 
> 
> 
> Underprivileged does not mean disabled. Underpriviledged usually means economically disadvantaged, and there's plenty of Karate schools in poor areas of the country that would run circles around these guys.



so you have just made. Up a rule that the kata must finish ay the same time, just you and every one has to comply


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> so you have just made. Up a rule that the kata must finish ay the same time, just you and every one has to comply



Again READ what I said. If multiple black belts are doing the same kata, they're supposed to start and end at the same time. If you're doing the techniques correctly, there's no reason you shouldn't be ending at the same time.

Once more, poor technique leads to the problems we're seeing in those videos. Poor instruction led to that poor technique.



jobo said:


> it can indeed mean that, it just a Pc way of saying it. Would you feel bad if you had been mocking people with a disability?



No, disabled IS the PC term. The un-PC term is "retard" or "cripple". Underprivileged almost always means poor. There's plenty of disabled people who come from affluent households.

I would never mock someone with a disability. However, it is highly doubtful that everyone in that video has a mental disability.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> And here you lot are mocking them for their accomplishment's



There is a difference between mocking someone and stating an estimation of the quality of their training.



jobo said:


> it can indeed mean that, it just a Pc way of saying it.



An incorrect PC way of saying it.


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## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> When you're doing the same kata at the same time, you're supposed to all end at the same time.


For team competition yes, but just regular class/seminar, which is what the video was, then nope.


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## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes but its not being done as a spectator sport,



I said nothing about sport.

Viewers could be anyone from instructors to other students observing during the class or demo.


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Again READ what I said. If multiple black belts are doing the same kata, they're supposed to start and end at the same time. If you're doing the techniques correctly, there's no reason you shouldn't be ending at the same time.
> 
> Once more, poor technique leads to the problems we're seeing in those videos. Poor instruction led to that poor technique.
> 
> ...


well that amount of coordination deficit, would lead a chartable person ( ie me) to conclude they have some issues. For you its seems it just an opportunity to feel superior to those less able .
what do you mean,supposed to, wheteis the rule your quoting


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## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> For team competition yes, but just regular class/seminar, which is what the video was, then nope.



It's better in class as well.  In all that chaos it would be easy to miss a student performing the techniques wrong.

If you stay in sync it is easier for the instructor, other students, or even yourself to spot the difference in your technique and the others and correct a potential bad habit before it is ingrained into muscle memory.


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## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> It's better in class as well.  In all that chaos it would be easy to miss a student performing the techniques wrong.
> 
> If you stay in sync it is easier for the instructor, other students, or even yourself to spot the difference in your technique and the others and correct a potential bad habit before it is ingrained into muscle memory.


It would be easy yes, but it's not a rule.  Well it wasn't when I did karate, but this is TKD, maybe that's different?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> I suspect that's because you are being very judgemental of this group whilst applying a complete different standard to your own teaching


Nope. My standard is effectiveness. That's the part you haven't gotten. If someone can't do a specific technique, that's part of the normal measurement, but it's not the actual standard. The technique isn't the point.


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## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> It would be easy yes, but it's not a rule.



Sure but surely you will agree that that chaos was painful to watch.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> I suspect doing it all together cuts down on the time considerably, but tell me more about how. Doing a sync dance helps with the actual business of using your karate skills,


I don't use them, so I can't speak to what they're useful for. But a demo is not about saving time, so when a demo is done, the idea of saving time seems irrelevant. A demo is about sales, so anything done in it should be designed to help illustrate some desirable feature or benefit to the appropriate audience. A bunch of people doing kata out of sync doesn't do that, in any way I can figure.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> so your whole complaint is based around them not being able to do a syn dance, but based on nothing more than yourassumption that is supposed to be in sinc


No, he has made his point fairly clearly (and I'm not one to find myself agreeing so completely with Hanzou very often).


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## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Sure but surely you will agree that that chaos was painful to watch.


LOL, oh absolutely yes!


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> For team competition yes, but just regular class/seminar, which is what the video was, then nope.



The expectation is there for classes, seminars and demonstrations as well. In fact, that expectation is there any time you're performing kata, especially as an advanced practitioner.

I mean seriously, if you were an instructor and had your BLACK BELTS demonstrating a kata, you would be okay with your students performing in a chaotic, unfocused manner?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> The expectation is there for classes, seminars and demonstrations as well. In fact, that expectation is there any time you're performing kata, especially as an advanced practitioner.
> 
> I mean seriously, if you were an instructor and had your BLACK BELTS demonstrating a kata, you would be okay with your students performing in a chaotic, unfocused manner?


I mostly agree with this. I don't do real group kata work (never more than 2 or 3 at once, and they might not even be doing the same kata), but if I was, I'd want them to all do the same kata at the same pace. I could see some use in having them purposely not do them in sync (having them focus during chaos), but that's not something I'd use it for often. To be able to give the best feedback, and to force them out of their own natural rhythms, I'd have them work in sync.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I mostly agree with this. I don't do real group kata work (never more than 2 or 3 at once, and they might not even be doing the same kata), but if I was, I'd want them to all do the same kata at the same pace. I could see some use in having them purposely not do them in sync (having them focus during chaos), but that's not something I'd use it for often. To be able to give the best feedback, and to force them out of their own natural rhythms, I'd have them work in sync.



Well keep in mind, the REASON they're not in synch is because the majority of them are going way too fast and doing the techniques improperly. Again, if you're just starting out and learning kata, no problem. However, when you're a black belt, and possibly instructor grade, that level of technical ineptitude is inexcusable.


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## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> The expectation is there for classes, seminars and demonstrations as well. In fact, that expectation is there any time you're performing kata, especially as an advanced practitioner.
> 
> I mean seriously, if you were an instructor and had your BLACK BELTS demonstrating a kata, you would be okay with your students performing in a chaotic, unfocused manner?


Chaotic and unfocused no, but that doesn't mean I'd expect them to be synchronised either.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Chaotic and unfocused no, but that doesn't mean I'd expect them to be synchronised either.



They're not in synch because they're not doing the techniques properly. If you do the techniques properly, and at the correct speed, you will all be pretty much in synch with one another. Hell, some gave up doing the techniques midway through, showing a severe lack of discipline and quality control.

Further if you look at them sparring, their lack of technique spills over into that arena as well.

BTW, those faults lay squarely on the instructor's shoulders.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Well keep in mind, the REASON they're not in synch is because the majority of them are going way too fast and doing the techniques improperly. Again, if you're just starting out and learning kata, no problem. However, when you're a black belt, and possibly instructor grade, that level of technical ineptitude is inexcusable.


I agree entirely with that, Hanzou. If they were all doing kata quite well, but out of sync, I'd have little to complain about since it's (probably) not a demo and I'm not the instructor. But they're not doing them well, and the being out of sync is just one symptom.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Chaotic and unfocused no, but that doesn't mean I'd expect them to be synchronised either.


Yeah, if they were just all being evaluated, and the instructor doesn't mind the chaos (again, chaos can be a useful tool), then the lack of synchronicity isn't a problem, in and of itself. Of course, if they were all good at the kata and doing them within their skill and abilities, they'd likely fall into some synchronicity all by themselves. I see this happen a lot with any kind of "line drill" - many students will fall into sync with the folks around them, as far as pacing and timing.


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## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> They're not in synch because they're not doing the techniques properly. If you do the techniques properly, and at the correct speed, you will all be pretty much in synch with one another. Hell, some gave up doing the techniques midway through, showing a severe lack of discipline and quality control.
> 
> Further if you look at them sparring, their lack of technique spills over into that arena as well.
> 
> BTW, those faults lay squarely on the instructor's shoulders.


I would expect advanced students to be "pretty much" in synch yes.  But we weren't talking about "pretty much" in synch.


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> well that amount of coordination deficit, would lead a chartable person ( ie me) to conclude they have some issues. For you its seems it just an opportunity to feel superior to those less able .
> what do you mean,supposed to, wheteis the rule your quoting



We have no evidence that anyone in that video were mentally handicapped, or otherwise disabled in any fashion.

Further, its not a matter of feeling superior, it's a matter of not wanting to see the martial arts devolve into a watered down mass of garbage with little value outside of a brain-dead physical activity. I'm of the belief that everyone doesn't deserve a black belt. Everyone doesn't get to reach an advanced ranking. Sometimes you have to fail in order to show your true character. Handing out belts like candy to everyone that walks through the doors devalues what a black belt symbolizes.

Compare a karate or TKD black belt to a Bjj black belt. There's a reason people automatically take the Bjj black belt more seriously than the TKD or Karate black belt. Bjj has a tradition or making obtaining the black belt a difficult process. TKD and Karate? Not so much.

Those videos highlight why that is the case. You put those poor souls in your typical Bjj school with their skillset and they'll get eaten alive, even against beginner Bjj practitioners.


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## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I would expect advanced students to be "pretty much" in synch yes.  But we weren't talking about "pretty much" in synch.



Just FYI; "Pretty much" means within seconds of each other. "Pretty much" should still be in synch.

A black belt in any karate school worth its salt should be able to perform a kata with proper technique, and at the proper speed. If you can't do that, you shouldn't have been awarded a black belt.


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> There's a reason people automatically take the Bjj black belt more seriously than the TKD or Karate black belt.


Do they, that's news to me.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Do they, that's news to me.



Given your responses to this topic, that doesn't surprise me.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Compare a karate or TKD black belt to a Bjj black belt. There's a reason people automatically take the Bjj black belt more seriously than the TKD or Karate black belt. Bjj has a tradition or making obtaining the black belt a difficult process. TKD and Karate? Not so much.



I disagree.  Most people have no idea what it takes to be a black belt in any of those.  And the main reason bjj might have more respect is the UFC touting bjj for the last 20 years.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I said nothing about sport.
> 
> Viewers could be anyone from instructors to other students observing during the class or demo.


well things are being done for


Hanzou said:


> We have no evidence that anyone in that video were mentally handicapped, or otherwise disabled in any fashion.
> 
> Further, its not a matter of feeling superior, it's a matter of not wanting to see the martial arts devolve into a watered down mass of garbage with little value outside of a brain-dead physical activity. I'm of the belief that everyone doesn't deserve a black belt. Everyone doesn't get to reach an advanced ranking. Sometimes you have to fail in order to show your true character. Handing out belts like candy to everyone that walks through the doors devalues what a black belt symbolizes.
> 
> ...


 we have plenty of evidence, you can tell by the way they move they are lacking in normal motor skills. If they should have achieved black belt status is an opinion. People who cant run get medals in the Olympics, but hell you make the rules, so tell them all to stay home and do basket weaving


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I disagree.  Most people have no idea what it takes to be a black belt in any of those.  And the main reason bjj might have more respect is the UFC touting bjj for the last 20 years.



And I in turn disagree with you. You can get a black belt in many karate and TKD schools in 2-3 years. It can take triple that time to get a black belt in Bjj.


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Just FYI; "Pretty much" means within seconds of each other. "Pretty much" should still be in synch.


The video you posted was a final Team Kata competition, which is judged in part on the synchronicity of the members of the team.  You don't get to the final of such a competition because you finished "within seconds" you get to the final because you finish "pretty much exactly" 

However, if you are now moving the goalposts to mean that finishing "within seconds" of each other is acceptable, the video of bad kata you posted , and then criticised in part for beng out of synch, is now acceptable by your new definition as they do indeed finish "with seconds of each other".  Within four seconds of each other by my estimate having just re watched the video.  Not bad for such a large class, and certainly acceptable within your new parameter of "within sconds".



Hanzou said:


> A black belt in any karate school worth its salt should be able to perform a kata with proper technique, and at the proper speed. If you can't do that, you shouldn't have been awarded a black belt.


I absolutely agree, but that wasn't what was being discussed.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> well things are being done for
> we have plenty of evidence, you can tell by the way they move they are lacking in normal motor skills. If they should have achieved black belt status is an opinion. People who cant run get medals in the Olympics, but hell you make the rules, so tell them all to stay home and do basket weaving



Laughable. They walked, bowed, ran, and stood just fine. Typically motor skill deficiency stretches beyond just your ability to do karate.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> And I in turn disagree with you. You can get a black belt in many karate and TKD schools in 2-3 years. It can take triple that time to get a black belt in Bjj.



And it can take that long in some TKD and or Karate Dojos.

You are making broad assumptions.

But the fact is most people don't have a clue about the differences in the styles and/or what the ranks mean.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> The video you posted was a final Team Kata competition, which is judged in part on the synchronicity of the members of the team.  You don't get to the final of such a competition because you finished "within seconds" you get to the final because you finish "pretty much exactly"
> 
> However, if you are now moving the goalposts to mean that finishing "within seconds" of each other is acceptable, the video of bad kata you posted , and then criticised in part for beng out of synch, is now acceptable by your new definition as they do indeed finish "with seconds of each other".  Within four seconds of each other by my estimate having just re watched the video.  Not bad for such a large class, and certainly acceptable within your new parameter of "within sconds".



Are you being disagreeable for the sake of disagreement here? I said that the reason they're out of synch is because the majority of them were doing improper technique. I also said that their lack of technique is a bigger concern than them being out of synch.



> I absolutely agree, but that wasn't what was being discussed.



Wrong. What is being discussed is poor instruction. Those qualities I mentioned come from proper instruction.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Laughable. They walked, bowed, ran, and stood just fine. Typically motor skill deficiency stretches beyond just your ability to do karate.


it not that they can walk, its how they walk and move, they don't have special stickers to make it easy for you


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Are you being disagreeable for the sake of disagreement here? I said that the reason they're out of synch is because the majority of them were doing improper technique. I also said that their lack of technique is a bigger concern than them being out of synch.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. What is being discussed is poor instruction. Those qualities I mentioned come from proper instruction.


well why do you keep harping on about them being out of sync if it doesn't matter


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it not that they can walk, its how they walk and move, they don't have special stickers to make it easy for you



So your argument is that that entire class of students have some sort of mental impairment?

Do you have any evidence to support this? My evidence is that they move and behave just fine until they actually start doing martial arts.

Your turn.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> we have plenty of evidence, you can tell by the way they move they are lacking in normal motor skills.



Videos of the school's founder show the same level of poor technique:









Also there is no mention anywhere on their website or any of their videos of anyone in their entire school being mentally handicapped in any way.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> Videos of the school's founder show the same level of poor technique:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good lord... That guy is supposed to be a 9th degree black belt.

What a sham!


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> So your argument is that that entire class of students have some sort of mental impairment?
> 
> Do you have any evidence to support this? My evidence is that they move and behave just fine until they actually start doing martial arts.
> 
> Your turn.


it blattent obvious for all but the deeply delusional to see, people don't move like that kata demo unless they have issues


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Are you being disagreeable for the sake of disagreement here?


No, I am disagreeing with your perceived requirement of synchronicity, in part because you have now changed your definition of said synchronicity which means they are, by your new definition (within seconds) not out of synch.  They all finish within 2 seconds of each other, apart from one guy who is a couple of seconds behind that.  An approx. total of four seconds, acceptable for such a large group IMO.



Hanzou said:


> I said that the reason they're out of synch is because the majority of them were doing improper technique.


Yes you did, and I not disagreeing with the quality of their technique, which is indeed poor.



Hanzou said:


> Are
> I also said that their lack of technique is a bigger concern than them being out of synch.


You did, and I did not disagree with that.  I have made no comment on the quality of their technique, I am only discussing being in synch.



Hanzou said:


> Wrong. What is being discussed is poor instruction. Those qualities I mentioned come from proper instruction.


Wrong, we are discussing synchronicity.


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> well why do you keep harping on about them being out of sync if it doesn't matter


That's what he does.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> Videos of the school's founder show the same level of poor technique:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks now I am addicted to watching WMAA videos on YouTube.


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Good lord... That guy is supposed to be a 9th degree black belt.
> 
> What a sham!


He isn't suppsoed to be, he is.  Black belts only have value within the organisation that awards them, there is no requirement for them to all be of an agreed universal standard.  A 5th Dan in one organisation might be the equivilant of a 1st Dan in another.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it blattent obvious for all but the deeply delusional to see, people don't move like that kata demo unless they have issues


But those issues are not the issues you think they are.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Thanks now I am addicted to watching WMAA videos on YouTube.


You're welcome.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> He isn't suppsoed to be, he is.  Black belts only have value within the organisation that awards them, there is no requirement for them to all be of an agreed universal standard.  A 5th Dan in one organisation might be the equivilant of a 1st Dan in another.



Just because karate and TKD have no standards doesn't mean that we should accept that they have no standards.


----------



## Steve (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Here is how a kata demo should look (idealy);
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's actually a really cool video.   Those guys seem very good at kata.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> That's actually a really cool video.   Those guys seem very good at kata.



Yeah, some of those vids are inspiring. Unsu (the kata they were doing) is considered to be one of the hardest and most advanced kata to perform.

Here's another that I like;






Papuren (sp?) is no joke.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> It is an infomercial for Steve Morris website and DVDs...written by the websites administrator.



and he is? I've never heard of him, nor has my instructor or anyone I've asked.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and he is? I've never heard of him, nor has my instructor or anyone I've asked.



Never heard of him either.

According to his website he was basically a natural at karate and fighting.  Honed his skills as a bouncer facing down gangsters and thugs.

Now trains fighters in MMA.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, some of those vids are inspiring. Unsu (the kata they were doing) is considered to be one of the hardest and most advanced kata to perform.
> 
> Here's another that I like;
> 
> ...





Hanzou said:


> Just because karate and TKD have no standards doesn't mean that we should accept that they have no standards.


it seems you got bored of attacking people with disabilities and now elected to attack karate and tkd as a whole.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it seems you got bored of attacking people with disabilities and now elected to attack karate and tkd as a whole.



I do believe that you calling a group of people "retarded" or "mentally disabled" because they were improperly taught martial arts is far more offensive and insulting than anything I've said in this thread.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I disagree.  Most people have no idea what it takes to be a black belt in any of those.  And the main reason bjj might have more respect is the UFC touting bjj for the last 20 years.



Two reasons.

It generally takes longer to get your bjj black. 

And a bjj black is a black belt everywhere. So you rock into another school you are a black belt there as well.


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I do believe that you calling a group of people "retarded" or "mentally disabled" because they were improperly taught martial arts is far more offensive and insulting than anything I've said in this thread.


retard was the word you chose to use, I said they had " issues". Which they clearly do


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Now trains fighters in MMA.



and that's why I should have heard of him. MMA in the UK is very small, it's almost incestuous.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> retard was the word you chose to use, I said they had " issues". Which they clearly do



Yes, and those "issues" would be mental retardation or mentally disabled.


How could they have mental issues when their 9th degree black belt instructor performs techniques exactly the same way as his students? Are you saying that mental disabilities are contagious?


----------



## jobo (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Yes, and those "issues" would be mental retardation or mentally disabled.
> 
> 
> How could they have mental issues when their 9th degree black belt instructor performs techniques exactly the same way as his students? Are you saying that mental disabilities are contagious?


you can use all the rude names you like, it just shows you in a bad light
disability covers a wide range of impairments and the kata group clearly have issues with their motor skills


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Two reasons.
> 
> It generally takes longer to get your bjj black.
> 
> And a bjj black is a black belt everywhere. So you rock into another school you are a black belt there as well.



But the majority of the public doesn't know this.  And for the most part the public doesn't care either.

And if you earned your black belt....you are a black belt....who cares if another organization recognises it or not, they can pound sand.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and that's why I should have heard of him. MMA in the UK is very small, it's almost incestuous.



That's what I thought too.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> But the majority of the public doesn't know this.  And for the most part the public doesn't care either.
> 
> And if you earned your black belt....you are a black belt....who cares if another organization recognises it or not, they can pound sand.



That is the point bjj do care,judo as well. And there is a lot of interaction between clubs.

So I turn up to Eddie bravos school with my WMA 4 stripe white belt. I had better be at that standard.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> That is the point bjj do care,judo as well. And there is a lot of interaction between clubs.
> 
> So I turn up to Eddie bravos school with my WMA 4 stripe white belt. I had better be at that standard.



Well that's where we are different, I don't worry bout that stuff.

I yam what I yam...if someone doesn't like it... oh well.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Well that's where we are different, I don't worry bout that stuff.
> 
> I yam what I yam...if someone doesn't like it... oh well.



Yeah but it is not all about you.  This is not even my opinion.  This is the reasoning behind why bjj black belts are generally more serious black belts than karate or tkd guys.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but it is not all about you.  This is not even my opinion.  This is the reasoning behind why bjj black belts are generally more serious black belts than karate or tkd guys.



Hold on.  I agree bjj black belts are more serious about what they accept.

 I was talking about that people in general dont have more respect for bjj black belts than the others.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

And let me add that in my opinion you should respect a black belt or any belt's skill level until they prove otherwise regardless of what style they are from.

I try to give them all the benefit of the doubt....I don't weight the styles differently.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it seems you got bored of attacking people with disabilities and now elected to attack karate and tkd as a whole.


You've just built this whole story of them being disabled, sold it to yourself, and now claim it as truth. Hopeless.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> That is the point bjj do care,judo as well. And there is a lot of interaction between clubs.
> 
> So I turn up to Eddie bravos school with my WMA 4 stripe white belt. I had better be at that standard.


That is nice within the art. Though I'll admit it never bothers me to go somewhere my BB doesn't mean the same thing (or anything) to them. If I'm going somewhere my rank would cause confusion, and I'm not there as a guest instructor, I just put on the white belt I keep in my travel bag. I guess I've gotten used to that because my original rank was from an association without a lot of reach, so I got used to going places where they didn't know what my rank meant.


----------



## Steve (Apr 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You've just built this whole story of them being disabled, sold it to yourself, and now claim it as truth. Hopeless.


Our president does that all the time.   It's effective.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 22, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> And let me add that in my opinion you should respect a black belt or any belt's skill level until they prove otherwise regardless of what style they are from.
> 
> I try to give them all the benefit of the doubt....I don't weight the styles differently.



I'm curious; What were your thoughts on the skill level of the Grandmaster of the school discussed in this thread? Do you think someone like that should be teaching people martial arts in such a fashion?

Refresher:


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious; What were your thoughts on the skill level of the Grandmaster of the school discussed in this thread? Do you think someone like that should be teaching people martial arts in such a fashion?
> 
> Refresher:



Well after watching him I was not impressed 

But he is free to do as he likes.....honestly the fact that people watching is impressed is baffling.

In the end, I judge him solely on his merits.....I don't use his or his school's lack of skill to judge other TKD practitioners and schools.  Each MA and school should be judged on his or its own merits.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That is nice within the art. Though I'll admit it never bothers me to go somewhere my BB doesn't mean the same thing (or anything) to them. If I'm going somewhere my rank would cause confusion, and I'm not there as a guest instructor, I just put on the white belt I keep in my travel bag. I guess I've gotten used to that because my original rank was from an association without a lot of reach, so I got used to going places where they didn't know what my rank meant.



We get a lot of martial arts tourism. Whenever someone is in the area they will quite often drop in and do some training. 

It is very comon with the bjjers.We get boxers kickboxers and mmaers as well. The karate club turns up from time to time.

Every bjjer who turns up with us just wears their respective belts. we pretty much roll every class. So it is a way of getting a guage on what other clubs are doing and what their standard is at. 

That way we get to know the good clubs to drop in on if we are abroad.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 23, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Just because karate and TKD have no standards doesn't mean that we should accept that they have no standards.


Just because SOME Karate and TKD schools seemingly have no standards doesn't mean they all do.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> it seems you got bored of attacking people with disabilities and now elected to attack karate and tkd as a whole.


He hasn't been attacking people with disabilities, you merely assumed a conclusion and are arguing against that.


----------



## jobo (Apr 23, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> He hasn't been attacking people with disabilities, you merely assumed a conclusion and are arguing against that.


yes he has


----------



## Buka (Apr 23, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious; What were your thoughts on the skill level of the Grandmaster of the school discussed in this thread? Do you think someone like that should be teaching people martial arts in such a fashion?
> 
> Refresher:



I know you didn't ask me, but I'm going to opine anyway. I train various Martial Arts for a long time, but I am, always have been, and always will be, a Karate man at core. I know martial arts are all different, I know Karate is all different, and I know those men pictured are all up there in years.

But that is awful crap, b.s. And if it is accepted as Karate, then it is the Emperer's New Clothes. And karate is doomed.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> .....honestly the fact that people watching is impressed is baffling.



They don't know any different, none of us do until we start our training and start it under good instructors. The spectators may well only know martial arts from the media, they may not have been exposed to any other styles or classes so when they see what the students are doing and the instructor is praising them what else can they do or be impressed?
Thee was a comment earlier, I can't remember who made it and I don't have time to look back, that stupid people train in dojos, well, no they don't. Inexperienced people without knowledge of martial arts train in them. don't blame the students blame the instructors, always. There are no bad students only bad instructors is the time honoured saying and it's true.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes he has


Where exactly?


----------



## jobo (Apr 23, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> Where exactly?


where he refered to the disabled as retards, for one


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 23, 2017)

Buka said:


> But that is awful crap, b.s. And if it is accepted as Karate, then it is the Emperer's New Clothes. And karate is doomed.


It's Chung Do Kwon Tae Kwon Do, apparently.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> where he refered to the disabled as retards, for one


That was not an attack, he was mentioning what the 'un-PC' term for people with mental disabilities. He mentioned that only after you had stated that you believed they moved they way they do because they had disabilities.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 23, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> It's Chung Do Kwon Tae Kwon Do, apparently.


They also claim to be Karate.


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 23, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> They also claim to be Karate.


Ok thanks for the info,  I didn't see that on their website.


----------



## jobo (Apr 23, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> That was not an attack, he was mentioning what the 'un-PC' term for people with mental disabilities. He mentioned that only after you had stated that you believed they moved they way they do because they had disabilities.


calling them retards, isn't attacking them?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> calling them retards, isn't attacking them?



This will be a first, people. I hope it's taken with the gravity with which I offer this defence BUT no he didn't call them retards, in fact the whole thing only came up because you decided they were special needs ( the UK PC term), no one said or thought anything about it until you mentioned it.
I don't think they are special needs I think they are willing students with a bad instructor who while he may believe genuinely he's doing a good job, isn't. Perhaps he too had a bad instructor, who knows.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> calling them retards, isn't attacking them?


What Tez3 said.


----------



## jobo (Apr 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> This will be a first, people. I hope it's taken with the gravity with which I offer this defence BUT no he didn't call them retards, in fact the whole thing only came up because you decided they were special needs ( the UK PC term), no one said or thought anything about it until you mentioned it.
> I don't think they are special needs I think they are willing students with a bad instructor who while he may believe genuinely he's doing a good job, isn't. Perhaps he too had a bad instructor, who knows.


but he refered to the disabled in general as retards,, I'm surprise at you defending him. He seems a most unsavory character


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> We get a lot of martial arts tourism. Whenever someone is in the area they will quite often drop in and do some training.
> 
> It is very comon with the bjjers.We get boxers kickboxers and mmaers as well. The karate club turns up from time to time.
> 
> ...


I wish MA tourism was more of a thing - I think it's good for the school and the tourist. I've only done a bit of it (I don't get to do a lot of non-business travel), and have rarely had anyone come into any of the schools where I trained - almost always a relative of someone who trained there.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> but he refered to the disabled in general as retards,, I'm surprise at you defending him. He seems a most unsavory character



Sigh. While he and I rarely agree on anything he is not 'an unsavoury character', I think most times he's wrong about karate, kata and a few other things but his opinion is a genuine one ( if wrong ) and I have read what he's written on this thread.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> They don't know any different, none of us do until we start our training and start it under good instructors. The spectators may well only know martial arts from the media, they may not have been exposed to any other styles or classes so when they see what the students are doing and the instructor is praising them what else can they do or be impressed?


I agree with that, but I still find it amazing (from my very different perspective) that the spectators don't see the lack of coordination and balance. What they do lacks what people like to see in sports, movies, and dance. I'd have thought they'd recognize that lack. But then, my viewpoint is very far from theirs.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> where he refered to the disabled as retards, for one


Actually, you used the word "retard". He actually said they weren't retarded. You're the one who took his statement as an attack on disabled people.


----------



## jobo (Apr 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, you used the word "retard". He actually said they weren't retarded. You're the one who took his statement as an attack on disabled people.


itake grave exception to that, he used the term to insult the disabled in general. After making such a vile accusation I expect you to reread the thread and issue an apology


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I agree with that, but I still find it amazing (from my very different perspective) that the spectators don't see the lack of coordination and balance. What they do lacks what people like to see in sports, movies, and dance. I'd have thought they'd recognize that lack. But then, my viewpoint is very far from theirs.



What I find amazing is the sheer number of schools that he has within his organization. It is literally like a disease spreading around the eastern portion of the US.

There are times that I miss the good old days of dojo storming....


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> No, disabled IS the PC term. The un-PC term is "retard" or "cripple". Underprivileged almost always means poor. There's plenty of disabled people who come from affluent households



Jobo, if this is what you are complaining about, the 'retard' remark, then you can clearly see he is not calling anyone retarded.
I could call you out on what you say about kata when it's clear you know nothing about it, you speak in very disparaging terms yet seem not to actually know what it's for or even how it's done. A total lack of disrespect for other martial arts I see.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> itake grave exception to that, he used the term to insult the disabled in general. After making such a vile accusation I expect you to reread the thread and issue an apology



Bollocks.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> itake grave exception to that, he used the term to insult the disabled in general. After making such a vile accusation I expect you to reread the thread and issue an apology


 
I find your entire argument hilarious considering that you assumed that the entire school was mentally disabled because they had a crappy teacher and were doing kata improperly. When RTKD showed us the instructor performing kata in the exact same fashion as his students (indicating that they were actually TAUGHT that way) you went on this silly tirade of me supposedly disparaging mentally disabled people.

I must say that it takes one hell of a *troll* to have RTKD, Tez3, and myself agreeing on ANYTHING. Bravo to you sir. Bravo!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> What I find amazing is the sheer number of schools that he has within his organization. It is literally like a disease spreading around the eastern portion of the US.
> 
> There are times that I miss the good old days of dojo storming....


If they are all like that, I need a school next to one of them. How does something like that actually survive? I honestly don't understand. I've seen ineffective technique, and I can understand how that survives if rigor isn't applied. But they appear to spar quite a bit, and you'd think just one natural talent would walk in and clear the floor.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I agree with that, but I still find it amazing (from my very different perspective) that the spectators don't see the lack of coordination and balance. What they do lacks what people like to see in sports, movies, and dance. I'd have thought they'd recognize that lack. But then, my viewpoint is very far from theirs.



All I can think of is that laypeople don't usually question or think about something if a perceived expert is saying that's how it should be. If the instructor isn't correcting the students I suppose it's accepted by everyone that they are doing it the right way however counterintuitive it seems. I wonder if those students are told not to train anywhere else?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> All I can think of is that laypeople don't usually question or think about something if a perceived expert is saying that's how it should be. If the instructor isn't correcting the students I suppose it's accepted by everyone that they are doing it the right way however counterintuitive it seems. I wonder if those students are told not to train anywhere else?


It must be that. And it must be that anyone with any natural talent or prior experience simply walks away without ever stepping on the mat. A decent yellow belt who did any hard sparring in most striking arts would be a real threat there.


----------



## Steve (Apr 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> itake grave exception to that, he used the term to insult the disabled in general. After making such a vile accusation I expect you to reread the thread and issue an apology


I would like to take this opportunity to offer my most heartfelt and humble apology.   What am I apologizing for, exactly?


----------



## Steve (Apr 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It must be that. And it must be that anyone with any natural talent or prior experience simply walks away without ever stepping on the mat. A decent yellow belt who did any hard sparring in most striking arts would be a real threat there.





Tez3 said:


> All I can think of is that laypeople don't usually question or think about something if a perceived expert is saying that's how it should be. If the instructor isn't correcting the students I suppose it's accepted by everyone that they are doing it the right way however counterintuitive it seems. I wonder if those students are told not to train anywhere else?


we see this around here all the time.   Appeal to authority is the name of the game.  The only difference is trust and credibility.  We hope that the folks we deem credible are not blowing smoke.  

So a lay person goes into these schools and says, "hey, that doesn't look the way I thought it would."  The expert replies, "real world violence looks different than in the movies.   When you fight, you fight hard and fast, and it looks sloppy and uncoordinated to the lay person."  And the lay person says, "oh, okay.  I guess that makes sense.  How much do I owe you?"


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It must be that. And it must be that anyone with any natural talent or prior experience simply walks away without ever stepping on the mat. A decent yellow belt who did any hard sparring in most striking arts would be a real threat there.



I can't honestly think of much else that explains it, I suppose too the spectators want to support their friends and family who are training so will suspend any thoughts they have of 'omg that was pants' lol. I don't suppose we'll ever know unless we can do an exit poll of the spectators as they are leaving.  We've probably all sat through things at schools etc. with our kids/family ( amateur dramatics is very popular here, some shows are good but most are entertaining but not professional) that weren't that good but we've thought 'ah bless, they're trying hard'. We tend not to be critical when family and friends are involved because we don't want to be unkind even if we should tell them the truth.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> we see this around here all the time.   Appeal to authority is the name of the game.  The only difference is trust and credibility.  We hope that the folks we deem credible are not blowing smoke.
> 
> So a lay person goes into these schools and says, "hey, that doesn't look the way I thought it would."  The expert replies, "real world violence looks different than in the movies.   When you fight, you fight hard and fast, and it looks sloppy and uncoordinated to the lay person."  And the lay person says, "oh, okay.  I guess that makes sense.  How much do I owe you?"


That's a reasonable read of it, Steve. I'd just have thought that this level of sloppiness would have been noticed by enough outsiders to make it difficult to spread. Apparently not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I can't honestly think of much else that explains it, I suppose too the spectators want to support their friends and family who are training so will suspend any thoughts they have of 'omg that was pants' lol. I don't suppose we'll ever know unless we can do an exit poll of the spectators as they are leaving.  We've probably all sat through things at schools etc. with our kids/family ( amateur dramatics is very popular here, some shows are good but most are entertaining but not professional) that weren't that good but we've thought 'ah bless, they're trying hard'. We tend not to be critical when family and friends are involved because we don't want to be unkind even if we should tell them the truth.


You know, as I was reading the beginning of this post, I was thinking about my time in band in Jr. High (years 7-9 - roughly 12-15 years old, for those outside the US)


----------



## Steve (Apr 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's a reasonable read of it, Steve. I'd just have thought that this level of sloppiness would have been noticed by enough outsiders to make it difficult to spread. Apparently not.


Incredibly easy to spread, actually, because there is very seldom any need to apply skills outaide of the school.  In this case, we have a bunch of dudes who might be in for a rude awakening.  

And, when (if) someone gets beat up, mugged or (worst case) killed, the logic is that he was unlucky.  Some might become disillusioned, but not as many as you might think.   ognitive dissonance FTW.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 23, 2017)

I guess in the end the general public just sees the black belt and assumes he is right.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2017)

Given the current atmosphere engendered by political events and social media, of shouting down and ridiculing people's views, it's become quite common for people not to say anything now when they feel something is wrong. You have to be quite brave to go against the flow these days.


----------



## Steve (Apr 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Given the current atmosphere engendered by political events and social media, of shouting down and ridiculing people's views, it's become quite common for people not to say anything now when they feel something is wrong. You have to be quite brave to go against the flow these days.


Err... does not compute.  too many people are voicing their opinions, which is a sign that it is common for people to not voice their opinions?   Bzzzzt...  error.   Error.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I agree with that, but I still find it amazing (from my very different perspective) that the spectators don't see the lack of coordination and balance. What they do lacks what people like to see in sports, movies, and dance. I'd have thought they'd recognize that lack. But then, my viewpoint is very far from theirs.



Martial arts is mostly set up to favor the shams.  If we validate martial via stories then my lie will always out perform you truth. 

Actual martial arts isn't very effective and takes time and hard work to learn.  And nobody has time for that. We all want to defeat three guys armed with knives. Not spend five minutes trying to get out from under a fat guy. 

And if as was mentioned there is no consequences to creating a bunch of duds then it makes sense that these sorts of schools do better.


----------



## Steve (Apr 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Martial arts is mostly set up to favor the shams.  If we validate martial via stories then my lie will always out perform you truth.
> 
> Actual martial arts isn't very effective and takes time and hard work to learn.  And nobody has time for that. We all want to defeat three guys armed with knives. Not spend five minutes trying to get out from under a fat guy.
> 
> And if as was mentioned there is no consequences to creating a bunch of duds then it makes sense that these sorts of schools do better.


Add to this that it's a lot sexier to believe you're a ninja than to believe you're a mediocre grappler or MMAist.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> Add to this that it's a lot sexier to believe you're a ninja than to believe you're a mediocre grappler or MMAist.



Dealing with being mediocre is a hard lesson to learn.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Apr 24, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious; What were your thoughts on the skill level of the Grandmaster of the school discussed in this thread? Do you think someone like that should be teaching people martial arts in such a fashion?
> 
> Refresher:


They even tie their belts weird:


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 24, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> They even tie their belts weird:


I suppose that's workable enough since it's not holding a jacket closed. Probably doesn't come untied, even with a stiff belt.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 24, 2017)

I must admit....I do enjoy watching new white belts and/or their parents trying to figure out how to tie their belts.


----------



## Spinedoc (Apr 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> We get a lot of martial arts tourism. Whenever someone is in the area they will quite often drop in and do some training.
> 
> It is very comon with the bjjers.We get boxers kickboxers and mmaers as well. The karate club turns up from time to time.
> 
> ...



This is not uncommon in Aikikai Aikido as well. I travel a fair amount and have been to multiple schools. It helps being exposed to different thoughts. We also have frequent seminars, and there is no shortage of different interpretations and training available.

Being in a town with a world famous medical center, we've had several people who practice elsewhere just drop in while they are in town.


----------



## TSDTexan (Apr 26, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious; What were your thoughts on the skill level of the Grandmaster of the school discussed in this thread? Do you think someone like that should be teaching people martial arts in such a fashion?
> 
> Refresher:



My ribs hurts.... from laughing so hard..  I have tears in my eyes... oh my gosh, I really needed that.


----------



## TSDTexan (Apr 26, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Good lord... That guy is supposed to be a 9th degree black belt.
> 
> What a sham!




Out of respect I couldn't whoop his rear.
No. I couldn't.

Self respect.


----------



## TSDTexan (Apr 26, 2017)

JP3 said:


> OK, I've got to ask. TSDTexan, what's not to like about the above post?



Error. Smartphone entered the wrong value when I hit the like button.

Sorry for the mistake.
Carry on.


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 26, 2017)

I saw a post on a forum or the like a little while back that may clear up some confusion on WMAA "Karate" (as they sometimes call themselves).  They're actually TKD, but I think "Tae Kwon Don't" is far more accurate.  Pretty sure it was Reddit.  The poster was a former student.  The gist of what he was saying...

"Headmaster" Dealy (the founder, 9th dan) is a headmaster at a private school in Brooklyn, NY.

Most of his students are kids from the school, their families, friends, etc.  The majority of the adult students are the kids' parents.  Some of the adults stick around after the kids leave, and some kids and parents train together for a long time.  There aren't videos of the kids probably due to privacy/protection reasons.  That's a good thing IMO.

They do everything with maximum speed and power, because they're taught speed and power defeat attackers.  When they're doing kata, they visualize the opponent in front of them and overwhelming them with maximum speed and power.  SD situations are chaotic, therefore their training is too.

I'm not agreeing in any way, shape nor form with their philosophy.   Makes sense on paper, but what they're actually doing falls flatter than anything I've ever seen before in MA.

They're not special needs people.  They're just very confused, misled, whatever else hobbyists.  They're not die-hard MAists looking for the ultimate truth.  They're mainly a bunch of people "doing karate" with their kids while socializing and getting exercise.  Sure, I'd imagine some of them take themselves seriously.  But most are out to have fun.  I doubt very few of them have any aspirations of being the next cage fighter, Mas Oyama, Bruce Lee, or anything else.

Saying all that, I still think it's absurd and hilarious.  I don't feel bad laughing at them.  They put themselves out there.  I don't think it's appropriate to get personal, but I sleep just fine at night having a good laugh at them.  Where the line is between having a good laugh and personal attacks is up to critic, I guess.

Watching those guys never gets old.  My only complaint is that they occasionally refer to themselves as karate.  THEY'RE TKD!  Just when Karate was cool again, these guys have to come along and ruin it for us all.  I could live with that if they were really karate, but they're not.  If you're going to ruin an art's reputation, at least have the decency to ruin the reputation of the art you're TRYING to practice.

But I'll live to fight another day.


----------



## TSDTexan (Apr 26, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I saw a post on a forum or the like a little while back that may clear up some confusion on WMAA "Karate" (as they sometimes call themselves).  They're actually TKD, but I think "Tae Kwon Don't" is far more accurate.  Pretty sure it was Reddit.  The poster was a former student.  The gist of what he was saying...
> 
> "Headmaster" Dealy (the founder, 9th dan) is a headmaster at a private school in Brooklyn, NY.
> 
> ...



This thing they do....
Is right there with....


----------



## JR 137 (Apr 26, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> This thing they do....
> Is right there with....



I didn't know if I should've rated it funny, like, or agree.  Funny was my first thought, so I went with it.


----------



## TSDTexan (Apr 26, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I didn't know if I should've rated it funny, like, or agree.  Funny was my first thought, so I went with it.


It's was meant as humorous observation.
So it's valid either way


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 27, 2017)

Awesome article....if this were 1994. But nearly 25 years after UFC 01, where you can do anything you wanted to beat someone down and win the whole event, this has been long proven and accepted. Oh wait, I  forgot where I was for a moment


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> Awesome article....if this were 1994. But nearly 25 years after UFC 01, where you can do anything you wanted to beat someone down and win the whole event, this has been long proven and accepted. Oh wait, I  forgot where I was for a moment



Using the early UFCs which were 'biased'  towards certain people winning (worked fights)probably isn't a compelling argument.


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 27, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Using the early UFCs which were 'biased'  towards certain people winning (worked fights)probably isn't a compelling argument.



Didn't see any specific argument, just a blanket statement.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> Didn't see any specific argument, just a blanket statement.



*The second definition applies.*

argument
ˈɑːɡjʊm(ə)nt/
_noun_
noun: *argument*; plural noun: *arguments*

*1*.
an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.


*2*.
a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"
synonyms: reasoning, line of reasoning, logic, case; More
defence, justification, vindication, apology, explanation, rationalization;
evidence, reasons, grounds;
argumentation, polemic;
assertion, declaration, claim, plea, contention, expostulation, demonstration
"his arguments for the existence of God"


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 27, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> *The second definition applies.*
> 
> argument
> ˈɑːɡjʊm(ə)nt/
> ...



You're confused between the definition of an argument and that of an argument itself.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> You're confused between the definition of an argument and that of an argument itself.



Sigh, if you say so ...because I don't have the crayons available to explain it all to you, you put forward the idea that UFC1 proved something, your argument ie your reasoning is unsound therefore your argument for UFC1 proven your point is unsound. Keep up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> You're confused between the definition of an argument and that of an argument itself.


No, I think not. Her usage is consistent with the definition. You presented what can be interpreted as an argument on one side of this debate.


----------



## Steve (Apr 27, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Using the early UFCs which were 'biased'  towards certain people winning (worked fights)probably isn't a compelling argument.


Whoa, this old thing again?


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> Whoa, this old thing again?



Is this one of those things where the color of the mats favored grappling or something?


----------



## Steve (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Is this one of those things where the color of the mats favored grappling or something?


Haha.   Something like that.  I think it's an idea that the rules favored Royce, or maybe that the competitors were hand picked to ensure he could beat them all.   

I don't know.   I just remember some tough judo, sambo and shooto guys, along with the oddballs you would expect.  I have the first 11 on video and I don't think the fix was in.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> Haha.   Something like that.  I think it's an idea that the rules favored Royce, or maybe that the competitors were hand picked to ensure he could beat them all.
> 
> I don't know.   I just remember some tough judo, sambo and shooto guys, along with the oddballs you would expect.  I have the first 11 on video and I don't think the fix was in.



I looked back on Gracie/kimo. He lost that royce didn't win it. 

Royce got swept out of mount for flips sake.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> Haha.   Something like that.  I think it's an idea that the rules favored Royce, or maybe that the competitors were hand picked to ensure he could beat them all.
> 
> I don't know.   I just remember some tough judo, sambo and shooto guys, along with the oddballs you would expect.  I have the first 11 on video and I don't think the fix was in.



Mainly that in the beginning a lot of the competitors weren't professional fighters.  Lot of body guards, stunt men, etc....for the most part it was your regular ensemble for a tough man competition... and the Gracies started it mainly for an infomercial for the GBJJ.

I mean they had a guy fight with one boxing glove on.....


----------



## Paul_D (Apr 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> Haha.   Something like that.  I think it's an idea that the rules favored Royce, or maybe that the competitors were hand picked to ensure he could beat them all.
> 
> I don't know.   I just remember some tough judo, sambo and shooto guys, along with the oddballs you would expect.  I have the first 11 on video and I don't think the fix was in.


Was it to do with there not being any round, so strikers didn't get the chance to get back to their feet?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Is this one of those things where the color of the mats favored grappling or something?


Wait, what??? Crap! I need to order new mats!


----------



## Steve (Apr 27, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Mainly that in the beginning a lot of the competitors weren't professional fighters.  Lot of body guards, stunt men, etc....for the most part it was your regular ensemble for a tough man competition... and the Gracies started it mainly for an infomercial for the GBJJ.
> 
> I mean they had a guy fight with one boxing glove on.....


Some, not all.   Royce, at that time was also not a pro fighter.  But many legit martial artists.  Ken Shamrock was a legit guy.   I'm on an iPad, which makes typing at length a pain.   But there were several guys who were well trained and very capable.  Sambo, judo, wrestling.   The first 10 events were pretty wide open.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> Some, not all.   Royce, at that time was also not a pro fighter.  But many legit martial artists.  Ken Shamrock was a legit guy.   I'm on an iPad, which makes typing at length a pain.   But there were several guys who were well trained and very capable.  Sambo, judo, wrestling.   The first 10 events were pretty wide open.



Not arguing....just that is the argument from my understanding.  It was a pretty motley crew of fighters


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 27, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sigh, if you say so ...because I don't have the crayons available to explain it all to you, you put forward the idea that UFC1 proved something, your argument ie your reasoning is unsound therefore your argument for UFC1 proven your point is unsound. Keep up.



Still no argument, just saltiness.


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Is this one of those things where the color of the mats favored grappling or something?



Maybe he just likes that color of crayons, who knows.


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> Haha.   Something like that.  I think it's an idea that the rules favored Royce, or maybe that the competitors were hand picked to ensure he could beat them all.
> 
> I don't know.   I just remember some tough judo, sambo and shooto guys, along with the oddballs you would expect.  I have the first 11 on video and I don't think the fix was in.



I wonder which one they thought couldn't beat Royce?  Shamrock probably did the best of them all, and he didn't last very long if I recall. Shamrock also moped the floor with all the other TMA's.


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 27, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I looked back on Gracie/kimo. He lost that royce didn't win it.
> 
> Royce got swept out of mount for flips sake.



I personally thought Royce fought dirty by pulling on his ponytail. Ripped it right off. Served him right for being vain. And he ended up not saving it neither.


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 27, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Mainly that in the beginning a lot of the competitors weren't professional fighters.  Lot of body guards, stunt men, etc....for the most part it was your regular ensemble for a tough man competition... and the Gracies started it mainly for an infomercial for the GBJJ.
> 
> I mean they had a guy fight with one boxing glove on.....




The Boxer w/1 glove was Art Jimmerson. PRO BOXER. 33-18  w/17 by KO. Fought 5-6 title fights and held an IBC Title.   Art Jimmerson - Wikipedia

There were quite a few Pros:  Ken Shamrock, Patrick Smith, Johnny Something (the Black Kickboxer in UFC 2), Kevin Rosier, Gerard Gordeau (he was bigtime in KB), and a bunch of others.

Most of the others were high ranking Traditional Martial Artists, of whom, some held world titles in their perspective competitions. Who knows about them being bouncers or stuntmen, but isn't that what's usually on the horizon for many Martial Artists who want to apply their MA's in a job anyway? And what bouncer or  stuntman, don't know any MA?


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Was it to do with there not being any round, so strikers didn't get the chance to get back to their feet?



Why should strikers be allowed to get to their feet? If they get taken to the ground, they need to fight their way out of it. 

There was no fix. The bottom line is that most MA styles had completely ignored grappling for decades and got run over by a grappling specialist.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> The bottom line is that most MA styles had completely ignored grappling for decades and got run over by a grappling specialist.



That was what was supposed to happen, it was designed that way to showcase the Gracies and provide a new entertainment which they hoped would make all their fortunes. It wasn't a genuine martial artist versus martial artists competition, it was  fixed, they chose the fighters who would appear, fixed who fought who, all with an aim of making sure the fights turned out the way they wanted. It was never a genuine promotion. It never showcased fighters from different styles and some still buy into the story as you do, that it was all above board and genuine.


----------



## Steve (Apr 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> That was what was supposed to happen, it was designed that way to showcase the Gracies and provide a new entertainment which they hoped would make all their fortunes. It wasn't a genuine martial artist versus martial artists competition, it was  fixed, they chose the fighters who would appear, fixed who fought who, all with an aim of making sure the fights turned out the way they wanted. It was never a genuine promotion. It never showcased fighters from different styles and some still buy into the story as you do, that it was all above board and genuine.


Wow.  That's quite a bold accusation.   And once again, without being at all specific. 

Found this series which outlines all of the athletes who competed in the first three UFC events:

UFC 1: The fighter redux
UFC 2: The fighter redux (part 1)
UFC 2: The fighter redux (part 2)
UFC 3: The fighter redux


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> That was what was supposed to happen, it was designed that way to showcase the Gracies and provide a new entertainment which they hoped would make all their fortunes. It wasn't a genuine martial artist versus martial artists competition, it was  fixed, they chose the fighters who would appear, fixed who fought who, all with an aim of making sure the fights turned out the way they wanted. It was never a genuine promotion. It never showcased fighters from different styles and some still buy into the story as you do, that it was all above board and genuine.



NO.

UFC 1:  Gracie fought  Art Jimmerson (Boxer), Ken Shamrock (Grappler), Gerard Gordeau (Savate).

UFC 2: Gracie fought: Minoki Ichihara (Karate "living legend"), Jason DeLucia (Pancrase, Kung-Fu), Remco Pardoel (Judo), Patrick Smith (TKD).

UFC 3: Gracie fought: Kimo Leopoldo (TKD).

UFC 4: Gracie fought:   Ron van Clief (Kung-Fu), Keith Hackney (Kempo), Dan Severn (Greco Roman).

You claiming that any of this was fix is pretty ridiculous. Of course there would be match-ups of what would be considered to be most competitive and more entertaining; it's called a business also? At that time, up to1993, we already knew what would happen when a STANDUP STRIKER fought another standup striker = Kick-Boxing. And we already knew about Judo and Wrestling tournaments.  However it was extremely rare to ever see a Striker vs. Grappler competition with ZERO DQ rules = UFC 1-4. This was mainly why Gracie was matched up with a Striker first just as Shamrock and Remco Pardoel were matched up against Strikers also...to answer the question of "what would happen".

But was Gracie able to hide from the other Grapplers as you've implied? He ended up fighting the winning Grapplers anyway (Shamrock, Remco, Severn). What would have been the point of having the Grapplers fight each other while the Strikers doing the same?  They'd still end up fighting Grappler vs. Striker in the end. The way it was matched, made much more sense.

And what GREAT AWESOME Grappler that wasn't allowed to compete at all, in order to protect Royce Gracie. Can you name them?

Royce Gracie beat Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn, who both later became the dominating forces of the early UFC's.....destroying most of their competition whether strikers or grapplers....  with Severn's PRO MMA record being 101-19.  So there goes your notion of Gracie fighting cans.


----------



## Steve (Apr 28, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> NO.
> 
> UFC 1:  Gracie fought  Art Jimmerson (Boxer), Ken Shamrock (Grappler), Gerard Gordeau (Savate).
> 
> ...


UFC 2 or 3, can't remember.  I think it was UFC 2, the big, 16 person extravaganza.  The matches were actually paired up by Jim Brown, who picked the names out of a fish bowl.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> So there goes your notion of Gracie fighting cans.



Oh dear. The early years of the UFC were the years spent building up the business, you don't have the people you are relying on to make money being beaten by all and sundry, not good for business. The early UFCs were designed to showcase the Gracies, obviously they found and matched up fighters who had more than a very good chance of losing to the star performers. The business model was a very good one and as we can see now the company is worth a fortune. Most of us would have done exactly the same if we wanted a successful business, I would for sure.
I didn't imply that Gracie hid from other grapplers, I never imply anything, you should know that, you made that up yourself. So that's a reach on your part to make your faux indignation sound better.  Ps. it didn't.


----------



## Steve (Apr 28, 2017)

I wish @Tez3 would actually support these wild accusations with some actual evidence.  If the early UFC events were rigged, I would love to learn more about it.  What a story that would be.

For what it's worth, I do agree that they were organized to showcase the Gracies, and I agree that it worked pretty well.  Many of the high level martial artists who were involved in those early UFCs became students of BJJ as a result, along with a lot of other guys. 

That is not the same as that they were rigged.


----------



## FriedRice (Apr 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear. The early years of the UFC were the years spent building up the business, .



You just realized that MMA was also a business? I bet they teach Kung-Fu or whatever that you do for free where you are right?



> you don't have the people you are relying on to make money being beaten by all and sundry, not good for business. The early UFCs were designed to showcase the Gracies, obviously they found and matched up fighters who had more than a very good chance of losing to the star performers.



Yet you can't name any fighters that was not allowed in the early UFC's for Gracie to fight. Can you name 5? Why dodge?



> The business model was a very good one and as we can see now the company is worth a fortune. Most of us would have done exactly the same if we wanted a successful business,



Very WRONG and quite ignorant of the history of the UFC, MMA and even Vale Tudo.

1. The UFC was going bankrupt under the original owner, Art Davies. It was getting banned in many major cities and states, renowned for combat sports. UFC was desperate for any venues but ended up mostly holding their events in Alabama and other rural states. It was marketed as a BLOODY BLOOD SPORT with no rules, which promptly got politicians legislating against it, ie. John McCain....leading it to being banned by many PPV venues. Tell us again how this was such a "very good", "business model".

2. UFC was purchased from Davies for $2 million in 2001, by the Fertitta Brothers  and had Dana White running it, trying to clean up the "blood sport" image with lots of rules & regulations.  But it kept losing TENS of MILLIONS of dollars from 2001-2004. The Fertitta Bros even sunk in $50,000,000 of their own cash to keep it going b/c they and White were BJJ enthusiasts who loved the sport.

3. It was only in 2005, when The Ultimate Fighter aired on Spike TV, that when the UFC rebounded. But it was just trying out, whatever may work and nothing to lose now; after losing tens of millions already. I don't think you know much about the history of this sport and the UFC.



> I would for sure.
> I didn't imply that Gracie hid from other grapplers, I never imply anything, you should know that, you made that up yourself. So that's a reach on your part to make your faux indignation sound better.  Ps. it didn't.



Ok counselor, then who did the Promoters of the UFC barred from entering the UFC in order to prevent them from fighting Royce Gracie to protect their master plan?  Can you name 5 of them?  Tick tock.


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## CB Jones (Apr 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> I wish @Tez3 would actually support these wild accusations with some actual evidence.  If the early UFC events were rigged, I would love to learn more about it.  What a story that would be.
> 
> For what it's worth, I do agree that they were organized to showcase the Gracies, and I agree that it worked pretty well.  Many of the high level martial artists who were involved in those early UFCs became students of BJJ as a result, along with a lot of other guys.
> 
> That is not the same as that they were rigged.



The UFC claiming that the UFC was created as an infomercial for the Gracie's made a lot of people think it was set up for him.


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## FriedRice (Apr 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> I wish @Tez3 would actually support these wild accusations with some actual evidence.  If the early UFC events were rigged, I would love to learn more about it.  What a story that would be.



I don't think he followed it when it came out in 1993. Not even years after. It took a while before the TMA communities submitted to MMA, well at least much of them.  That was when you started seeing Karate & Kung-Fu joints, adding "MMA" to their sign or went completely new, with an MMA name. Nowadays, you see BJJ classes as apart of TKD schools, etc.



> For what it's worth, I do agree that they were organized to showcase the Gracies, and I agree that it worked pretty well.  Many of the high level martial artists who were involved in those early UFCs became students of BJJ as a result, along with a lot of other guys.
> 
> That is not the same as that they were rigged.



Yes I agree, while the Gracies had big stakes in it to promote their BJJ brand....it could have also backfired horribly on them should Royce  lost or lost badly.  The model was actually, awesome for many Martial Arts Fighters, but not so much for the general, non-fighting Martial Artists nor the non-lowbrow public, who thought it was barbaric. Royce Gracie even said that he "needed the money bad" from the UFC 02 winnings ($60,000?). Royce was not banking lots of $$$. Under this original Blood Sport model of Art Davies & Royler Gracie, it was going bankrupt.


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## FriedRice (Apr 28, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> The UFC claiming that the UFC was created as an infomercial for the Gracie's made a lot of people think it was set up for him.



Any proof(s)?


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## Tez3 (Apr 28, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> You just realized that MMA was also a business? I bet they teach Kung-Fu or whatever that you do for free where you are right?



Was that an attempt at sarcasm dear boy? Brave attempt but no lollipop. MMA per se is not a business.
You are getting quite boring and quite off topic too ( don't let that stop you though, your posturing is amusing).
Anyway crack on, I'm off to light candles, won't be back until this time tomorrow. Have fun sweetie, don't do anything I wouldn't.


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## Paul_D (Apr 28, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Why should strikers be allowed to get to their feet?


I didn't say they should.



Hanzou said:


> There was no fix.


I didn't say there was.

No one could remember what reason was people say the early UFC's were skewed in favour of grapplers.  I just asked if this was the reason as I seem to remember reading something along those lines.


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## Steve (Apr 28, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> The UFC claiming that the UFC was created as an infomercial for the Gracie's made a lot of people think it was set up for him.


Slow down.  I think you're missing some key details.  Let's say UFC 1 was an infomercial.  Something can be created as a venue to highlight/advertise GJJ and NOT be rigged.  Those are not the same thing.  Using your own analogy, infomercials are not inherently fraudulent.

In the realm of possibility is that the Gracies were so confident in their product, they weren't really all that worried about who they showcased. From what I've read, they were more concerned about the inclusion of rules to protect the OTHER guys than to protect Royce, and based upon the credentials of those who participated, it seems like they made a sincere attempt to include a diverse group of martial artists from a variety of backgrounds.  All were high level  within their respective styles.


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## Steve (Apr 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Was that an attempt at sarcasm dear boy? Brave attempt but no lollipop. MMA per se is not a business.
> You are getting quite boring and quite off topic too ( don't let that stop you though, your posturing is amusing).
> Anyway crack on, I'm off to light candles, won't be back until this time tomorrow. Have fun sweetie, don't do anything I wouldn't.


@FriedRice This is about as close to an admission that she is wrong as you'll get from @Tez3.  My recommendation is take it as her saying, "You're right and I'm wrong," and move on.


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear. The early years of the UFC were the years spent building up the business, you don't have the people you are relying on to make money being beaten by all and sundry, not good for business. The early UFCs were designed to showcase the Gracies, obviously they found and matched up fighters who had more than a very good chance of losing to the star performers. The business model was a very good one and as we can see now the company is worth a fortune. Most of us would have done exactly the same if we wanted a successful business, I would for sure.
> I didn't imply that Gracie hid from other grapplers, I never imply anything, you should know that, you made that up yourself. So that's a reach on your part to make your faux indignation sound better.  Ps. it didn't.



You don't think it was hard to get top fighters to compete in what was a freak show at the time.?


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I didn't say they should.
> 
> 
> I didn't say there was.
> ...



Looking back. Everyone was doing some bizzaro stuff by todays standards.

It was mainly poor fighting skills that gave it to the BJJers at the start.


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## Buka (Apr 28, 2017)

Hold on now -

First of all, the Gracies didn't start the UFC, Art Davie did. And the reason the fighters in UFC 1 were the ones they were is because they were the only ones with the balls to agree to a televised no holds barred (pretty much) fight. Art Jamison was paid more than anyone else in the competition - because art Davie really needed a boxer there. This was because his original idea for the competition stemmed from the old arguement (when Davie was a kid) "who would win, a boxer or a wrestler.
This was a very common question back in the day.

And I highly, recommend, and I mean highly this book -
*"Is This Legal?: The Inside Story of The First UFC from the Man Who Created It"*

If you have a few minutes, you should go look this up on Amazon. Like, right now. You guys will love this book. Anyone in the fight game would.

And anyone who thinks any of the fights were "worked", doesn't know a thing about fighting. Not thing one.


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> Slow down.  I think you're missing some key details.  Let's say UFC 1 was an infomercial.  Something can be created as a venue to highlight/advertise GJJ and NOT be rigged.  Those are not the same thing.  Using your own analogy, infomercials are not inherently fraudulent.
> 
> In the realm of possibility is that the Gracies were so confident in their product, they weren't really all that worried about who they showcased. From what I've read, they were more concerned about the inclusion of rules to protect the OTHER guys than to protect Royce, and based upon the credentials of those who participated, it seems like they made a sincere attempt to include a diverse group of martial artists from a variety of backgrounds.  All were high level  within their respective styles.



Benny the jet may have been ducked in the Gracie challenge. His name sometimes gets mentioned as a notable absence in UFC.  But then he is also little.


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## FriedRice (Apr 28, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Was that an attempt at sarcasm dear boy? Brave attempt but no lollipop. MMA per se is not a business.
> You are getting quite boring and quite off topic too ( don't let that stop you though, your posturing is amusing).
> Anyway crack on, I'm off to light candles, won't be back until this time tomorrow. Have fun sweetie, don't do anything I wouldn't.



Bye, and I love you bro.


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## FriedRice (Apr 28, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You don't think it was hard to get top fighters to compete in what was a freak show at the time.?



Also, remember that the grand prize was $60,000.  $1000 for each fight and another $1000 for each win (IIRC).   That's a hell of a lot of money for the average, full time, Pro Martial Artist fighter back in 1993...who probably made like $10,000 a year fighting, if he's lucky and pretty high in the rankings. The rest of the other big time Martial Artists (who weren't fighters) were busy peddling seminars where 10-15 people show up. Or they teach for fun and work a real job elsewhere.

Even today, the lowest UFC fighter on the card in the  Preliminary fights of a non-PPV UFC event, makes around $5,000....so the ones fighting in the Pre-Preliminary, is going to be even less.  Local Pro MMA fighters in local events, it's usually $500-3000.  Amateur, you usually fight for a trophy. I don't think Meisha Tate even made $60k in her 2nd Title fight vs. Ronda Rousey. Cyborg makes $90-120k per fight in Invicta while the other 12-16 fighters split like $40k for the night....and paying Cyborg is claimed to almost put Invicta under.

$60k for a night's work was a God-send for Martial Artists....and especially Wrestlers, who's greatest future outlook was usually High School Wrestling Coach. Ken Shamrock was probably the biggest name who was making money in Japan fighting, and he went for that $60k.


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## CB Jones (Apr 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> Slow down. I think you're missing some key details. Let's say UFC 1 was an infomercial. Something can be created as a venue to highlight/advertise GJJ and NOT be rigged. Those are not the same thing. Using your own analogy, infomercials are not inherently fraudulent.



I'm not making any claims just pointing out in an interview years ago either Dana White or Joe Rogan (can't remember) made the comment that the first few UFCs were basically infomercials for the Gracies....and a lot of people took that as it was intentionally set up for Royce.  Probably just a poor choice of words.


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## FriedRice (Apr 28, 2017)

Buka said:


> Hold on now -
> 
> First of all, the Gracies didn't start the UFC, Art Davie did.



It was Art Davies and Rorion Gracie, because the Gracies have been doing these style vs. style competitions in Brasil since the 1950's or something. And they also had these fights at their BJJ gym in California also.

Much of the speculations about how the early UFC's were fixed to prop up Royce Gracie + BJJ, was probably due to Rorion's involvement in the production.

UFC co-founder Art Davie: Gracies are 'alpha males trying to impress the old man'


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## Steve (Apr 28, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I'm not making any claims just pointing out in an interview years ago either Dana White or Joe Rogan (can't remember) made the comment that the first few UFCs were basically infomercials for the Gracies....and a lot of people took that as it was intentionally set up for Royce.  Probably just a poor choice of words.


I truly don't understand what this has to do with what I said.


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## CB Jones (Apr 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> I truly don't understand what this has to do with what I said.



I was just clarifying that I'm not claiming it was an infomercial....just pointing out where that comment came from


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## Steve (Apr 28, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I was just clarifying that I'm not claiming it was an infomercial....just pointing out where that comment came from


I get that but I tried to explain earlier that its really kind of irrelevant whether it is or not.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 29, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> UFC 3: Gracie fought: Kimo Leopoldo (TKD).


Kimo Leopoldo actually had no formal training in TKD or any other martial art at the time he fought Royce Gracie. His TKD black belt was invented for the purpose of promoting the event.


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## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> Kimo Leopoldo actually had no formal training in TKD or any other martial art at the time he fought Royce Gracie. His TKD black belt was invented for the purpose of promoting the event.



Actually that's false. Kimo was a wrestler in high school, and from all accounts, he was very good at it. Wrestling definitely counts as a martial art.

He went on to earn his black belt in Bjj. I wonder why.....


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 29, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Actually that's false. Kimo was a wrestler in high school, and from all accounts, he was very good at it. Wrestling definitely counts as a martial art.
> 
> He went on to earn his black belt in Bjj. I wonder why.....


But he had no black belt in TKD.


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## Hanzou (Apr 29, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> But he had no black belt in TKD.



Fair enough, but to say he had no formal MA training is blatantly false. Wrestlers are some of the toughest martial arts practitioners around, especially when they're a lot bigger than you.


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## FriedRice (Apr 29, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Actually that's false. Kimo was a wrestler in high school, and from all accounts, he was very good at it. Wrestling definitely counts as a martial art.
> 
> He went on to earn his black belt in Bjj. I wonder why.....



Part of Kimo's downfall was that ponytail. I remember how incredibly exciting that fight was.


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## JP3 (Apr 29, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Error. Smartphone entered the wrong value when I hit the like button.
> 
> Sorry for the mistake.
> Carry on.


Solid.  Big fingers, small button on screen. Got it.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 29, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Solid.  Big fingers, small button on screen. Got it.


Thank you. For those who don't get it...


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## JR 137 (Apr 30, 2017)

Speaking of the Gracies ducking people and proof of if they actually did (that was a few pages back), and kinda irrelevant but cool and funny anyway...

Apparently, the Gracies challenged "Judo" Gene LeBelle to fight Royce (not sure when).  LaBelle accepted the challenge under one condition - that he fights Helio Gracie first.  He stated that Helio Gracie is his contemporary, not Royce or any other Gracie.  He said if Helio gets into the ring/octagon first, then he'll fight any and every other Gracie afterward.  No reply was given to LaBelle.

That's according to LaBelle.  He's made some outrageous claims here and there over the years, but somehow I believe that one.


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## Steve (Apr 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Speaking of the Gracies ducking people and proof of if they actually did (that was a few pages back), and kinda irrelevant but cool and funny anyway...
> 
> Apparently, the Gracies challenged "Judo" Gene LeBelle to fight Royce (not sure when).  LaBelle accepted the challenge under one condition - that he fights Helio Gracie first.  He stated that Helio Gracie is his contemporary, not Royce or any other Gracie.  He said if Helio gets into the ring/octagon first, then he'll fight any and every other Gracie afterward.  No reply was given to LaBelle.
> 
> That's according to LaBelle.  He's made some outrageous claims here and there over the years, but somehow I believe that one.


Gene labelle is a bona fide badass.


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## Charlemagne (May 1, 2017)

the definition of martial

While I can certainly agree with much of what has been written in regards to staying out of trouble, use of verbal deescalation tactics, avoiding bad places/situations, and the potential legal ramifications of self-defense situations, let's not kid ourselves about the purpose of martial arts.  They exist for a reason.


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