# young female wrestlers



## Ceicei

I thought it interesting that in the last paragraph of this article, wrestling is mentioned as self defense.  I know many people tend to think of wrestling more as a sport.

http://www.harktheherald.com/module...=article&sid=7098&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

How do you feel about this situation?  If you were the mother or the father, how would you handle this?

- Ceicei


----------



## MountainSage

What a crock!  That young lady has every right to be included in any tournament.  I should note that I have an eight year old daughter that wrestles throught the local kids program.  The comments were even more anal than the situation.  Boys wrestling girls makes them spousal abusers, get real.  The AAU wrestling system allow boy-girl competition up til about age twelve then the gender are sperated which seem appropriate.  I am impressed with the team honor that was shown, that coach is teaching those kids some excellent sportmanship and spirit.  The only issue is that boys in "manly" sport of wrestling, which I competed in for 10+ years at a local, state, and regional level and coach, is boy don't want to lose to a girl.  Ego is the most deadly personality trait to have in any situation.  Wrestling is an art like any other martial arts, yet some people forget the art for the glory or the precieved glory.

Mountainsage


----------



## Ceicei

MountainSage,
If that was your daughter, what would you have said to Kelley or done to resolve this?

- Ceicei


----------



## JDenz

I agree with the tournament people.  I have wrestled all of my life and coached AAU wrestling for the last 7 or 8 years.  I hate the idea of boys and girls wrestling together.  First of all the girls are way better when they are young, by the time they reach 10-11 the boys start getting better and stronger.  Here in NY they let boys and girls wrestle each other through the highschool years.  I have a daughter and I would not let her wreslte boys, even if she is way better.  Not only that it raises a HUGE liabilty issue about inaproperate behavior.   Not only that I seen a match that highlights the gender diffrence to a tee.  My kid was 12 I am not sure how old the female was.   He went for a pump handle tilt and they stopped his match and gave him a unsportsman like conduct penality.  They restarted the match, he put a boot in and was riding here got a little high and he was hanging on to her chest.  I am not sure if he relized what he was doing or not but he got hit with another unsportsman like conduct, so now he has given up three points is tied with her with thirty seconds left.  If he gets called for anything else the female ref (who has never wrestled once in her life, Her brother was a state champ but she herself never steped on the mat) tells us if he does anything else he is out of the tournament (DQ'ed for the whole thing, normally  it is double elimination) SO I tell him to let her up and take her down again.  He did and ended up getting the takedown pretty much on the towel coming in.  He had it earlier and the ref wouldn't give it to him.  Terriable.


----------



## MountainSage

Ceicei,
 As a good parent I would have to demand the entrance fees refunded and leave.  Later explaining to my daughter that the world is not fair or just, so move on to the next battle.  Win the one's you can, politely and quietly leave the lossing battles alone.  As a person, I would demonstrate the "flying Helocopter" on his ***, followed closely by a public castration.  Both of which I am uniquely qualified to accomplish ( I am very large person and a sheep rancher).  That situation has lose-lose written all over it.

JDenz,
 I understand you position on the issue, yet everyone is going to have to understand the situation these girls are placing themselves into when stepping onto the mat.  I am realistic in that I know most people will not understand.  If wrestling is to survive, there need to be the inclusion of women.  Why you might ask?  Believe it or not women athlete's are more strongly supported by friends and family than males.


Mountainsage


----------



## JDenz

I don't have a problem with women wrestling.  I think that it is another sport that needs diffrent gender compitions like football.  There are girls only tournaments here which I think is awsome.  Womens wrestling is going to be in the olympics so I don't think that there is a problem getting women involved with the sport.  I mean there is never going to be a female linebacker, just like no women is ever going to beat a man at even a high highschool level probley.


----------



## Ceicei

JDenz,

Let me ask some questions regarding the situation you mentioned.

Could two male wrestlers do the exact same things you saw happen between the male/female wrestlers and NOT be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct?

If yes, then the female ref is wrong.  In competition, rules should be applied equally, regardless if one of the wrestlers happen to be female.  If penalties are given indirectly because of gender when none given if both wrestlers are of the same, then the answer is obvious.  

The fact that female ref never set foot on the mat to wrestle herself in the past does count somewhat against her and may have colored her judgment.  Nevertheless, if she has done a lot of refereeing, she should keep in mind that if two male wrestlers can do some certain moves without penalty, she shouldn't issue such a penalty if the same moves were done between male/female wrestlers.

My two cents,

- Ceicei


----------



## JDenz

It is not a penality at all if two male wrestlers do it.  Let me say that if I saw a boy doing that two my daughter I would be upset probabley to.   The female ref tries hard but she is not that good.  She has very bad Mat positioning and doesn't anticipate where the action is going so she is out of position alot of times.  I don't really have much of a problem with female refs.  There actully is a real good ref that is an old big women.   Like I said I think wrestling is a sport that everyone should experiance sometime in there lives I just think that they should keep the geners seperated.


----------



## MountainSage

JDenz,
We are in general agreement on this issue with minor differences.  One thing that is tending to be overlook is that wrestling is a skill sport not just a brute strength.  I have personal beaten stronger opponents in high school with skill when strength didn't work.  Let me tell you that the first time it happened, being large and strong person, scared the horse pucky out of me.

Mountainsage


----------



## arnisador

There's a lot of body contact in wrestling. I don't ever recall seeing a guy placing an arm in another guy's crotch called as unsportsmanlike conduct. It sounds like that sort of call could effectively rule out many techniques.

I don't know what the answer is. Obviously, not enough women currently practice it for a seperate female wrestling sport to be viable.


----------



## MA-Caver

To my understanding the referee was female and had no previous wrestling experience of her own to realize that it was a legal move to put down an opponent. 
When you get refs like that and they're not even thinking that ... "hey these are just kids... not teenagers who'd get a thrill from a feel"...  
Anyway... that equality of the female sportsperson is seemingly coming into it's own. But when everything goes co-ed still remains to be seen.
Wrestling is just a step...one step.


----------



## JDenz

lol stregth and endurance is what wrestling is all about.  At any high level of wrestling women are not going to be able to compete.  There is great female intrest in wrestling and they took major steps getting female wrestling in the olympics coming up.  Female wrestling is coming up strong watch out for the US team in the olympics.  I have posted several other articles on this in this forum.


----------



## arnisador

Do you really think the average high school could field a team?


----------



## MountainSage

I do not believe that the average high school could field a complete competition team at this time.  I believe Espire high school wrestling has 10 weight divisions, where mens is 12 or 13 depending on the state.  Oregon has 13 mens and 8 womens weight divisions in high school and one university with a women wrestling team (Pacific Lutheran).  I understand that the Pacific team does very well on the national level and sent one or two to the Pan-Am games.  I think there may be some other college and universities that have programs in Oregon.

Mountainsage


----------



## Ceicei

Here's a follow up to the initial article.  Looks like this situation is going to the ACLU.  - Ceicei



> Boy-girl wrestling banned; moms mad
> 
> The Associated Press
> 
> Courtney Jackson can wrestle. The 9-year-old proved it last year when she beat the boys on her way to first place at a tournament in Orem.
> 
> See rest of article...
> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Nov/11292003/utah/115498.asp


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *lol stregth and endurance is what wrestling is all about.  At any high level of wrestling women are not going to be able to compete.  There is great female intrest in wrestling and they took major steps getting female wrestling in the olympics coming up.  Female wrestling is coming up strong watch out for the US team in the olympics.  I have posted several other articles on this in this forum. *



You can be sure that won't happen in Texas. Someone tried to force it on the U.I.L. in letting the girls compete with the boys, and it didn't work!:asian:


----------



## JDenz

Good I think that womens wrestling needs to stay a club sport for a few more years until they get the women to do it.  Wrestling is a dieing sport anyways.  Less collages and highschools every day.


----------



## MountainSage

JDenz,
if you believe wrestling is dying then quit.  I will fight to keep wrestling alive with my last breath.  There is not better all around athlete than a good skilled wrestler.  Add some kicking and punching and you've got a real bad @ss and probably a nice person to boot.  Add youth and weapons train and you got a future Navy S.E.A.L. and no I'm nowhere near the ability of a SEAL(I wish).

Mountiansage


----------



## JDenz

Wrestling is losing the good fight.  It will never die out, wrestlers are to hard core for that to happen but tittle 9 is a back breaker and Fila is a joke.


----------



## chinkoobake

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *JDenz,
> if you believe wrestling is dying then quit.  I will fight to keep wrestling alive with my last breath.  There is not better all around athlete than a good skilled wrestler.   *



Tell it like it is, brother!


----------



## JDenz

Lol I am involved with both AAU and Usa wrestling now,  If you look at my posts I am the only one here writting about the US teams, top 25 teams in Division one rule changes and the female US teams.  I love wrestling and have spent my whole life wrestling but it is a dying sport.  Maybe RealPro wrestling can get on a network and bring a little life back to the sport.  How many of you guys have been to a national or international level tournament or camp?  By the way there are two girls on our highschool team right now.  One is super good looking the other I haven't seen yet.  I don't think she has scored a point yet in her matches.  I think that she has alot of heart but she is just getting overpowered.  For womens wrestling they make the weight cutoff 168 I think it is 160 something.  So there are alot less spots to fill.  It is prety tough to fill a highschool boys team though.  Here in New York in Section 6 there are alot of teams without a full lineup.


----------



## MountainSage

JDenz, 
Let me guess, they kick you off the cheer team for to much pride in your team.  You may consider your statements to be from a  realists standpoint, yet if you go into a fight with a losing attitude you will lose.  Title whatever has nothing to do with wrestling, it has to do with money.  Don't take the money don't have to follow the rules.  There are many programs, I believe the AAU system, where most clubs don't get federal funding and do fine.  We have become depend on Gov't dollars and that sad.  My local program has commitment of $8,000 private dollars to continue the wrestling program that's $3,000 more than the gov't gives them.  Cheer up buddy this fight not over, wrestling I mean.

Mountainsage


----------



## JDenz

Lol government money lol that is a joke.  Lol all our money is from fund raising that we do.  It isn't a matter of anything really we have no influence on what is going on in the wrestling world.  When collages have to cut a program wrestling is one of the first to go.   I will get the figures on how many programs have been cut in just the last five years.  It is over 90 schools I know that for sure I have the exact number in another post back to rereading.   AAU wrestling doesn't really mean that much unfortunitly.  USA wrestling is facing huge financal problems as well.  Without the private clubs that donate the money and space for our international guys our team would suck.  But we are awsome and our womens team is awsome.  I am telling you if things don't change with title nine and school funding there will be no more highschool collage wrestling.  Wrestling will be like Judo is now.  A club sport outside of schools.  Maybe that would be a good thing though.  It actully might increase the people that wrestle.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Wrestling will be like Judo is now.  A club sport outside of schools.  *



I wonder if this might be so. It's an interesting thought.



> *Maybe that would be a good thing though.  It actully might increase the people that wrestle. *



Maybe!


----------



## ace

For the a Straight Answer is it's just weird.

It can not be the most comfortable thing to do
especialy at an early age were some boy's & girls
don't even like playing in the same play ground 
let alone Wrestle on a mat.

U don't se co/ed  Swim Teams Y wood U have co/ed
Wrestling.

Im not saying Girls Should not Wrestle 
but i don't think it should be mixed in competion.

just my 2 cent's don't spend it all
in 1 place
:asian:


----------



## JDenz

lol I know what you are saying.  There is a great looking girl on our highschool team there is no way I could wrestle with her on a daily basis.  I would need about 12 showers a practice.


----------



## ace

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *lol I know what you are saying.  There is a great looking girl on our highschool team there is no way I could wrestle with her on a daily basis.  I would need about 12 showers a practice. *




Can U emagen beeing a teen
were your Hormones are all ready freakin out

U peaking through a hole in the wall to catch 
a clip of the girls taking it off.

Now U are sent out to wrestel her on the mat
&  U saw her goods earlyer
now U are touching them ups something  PoPed up


May be not at an early age but I know what i was into at age 9
most kids wil be kids


----------



## JDenz

lol can you imgine at 14-16 lol man I can't.  Although i did grapple with a girl in collage once and it wasn't sexual.


----------



## ace

> _Originally posted by MountainSage _
> *JDenz,
> if you believe wrestling is dying then quit.  I will fight to keep wrestling alive with my last breath.  There is not better all around athlete than a good skilled wrestler.  Add some kicking and punching and you've got a real bad @ss and probably a nice person to boot.  Add youth and weapons train and you got a future Navy S.E.A.L. and no I'm nowhere near the ability of a SEAL(I wish).
> 
> Mountiansage *




Make a Note Jdenz is a serious Wrestler 
Who dedicates him self to the sport both as a coach
& a Competitor.

He has been helping me work on my Wrestling 
for my up coming cadge fight in Sept.


----------



## JDenz

thanks Primo.


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *thanks Primo. *



Uh oh, I think JDenz just gave you the "kiss of death."


----------



## ace

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Uh oh, I think JDenz just gave you the "kiss of death." *




He blasted at me a few 
hard low kicks & some good Strike.

In adition to being a Good Wrestler He can Strike
& has Submisson Skills.


----------



## JDenz

Wow I better get the check in the mail to Primo for building me up so good.


----------



## arnisador

"Mat Wars: The Story of Ontario High School Girls' Wrestling"

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_leyshon_0800.htm

"Wrestling: Melissa Kindratsky, Canadian Collegiate Wrestler"
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_taylor_0201.htm


----------



## JDenz

Good post but that is what I have been saying all along.  Everyone should wrestle just boys should wrestle boys and girls should wrestle girls.  Wrestling is getting sued by crossdressers and sex change opperation patentents now, so in the near future look for conterversal rulings still on the way.


----------



## ace

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Wow I better get the check in the mail to Primo for building me up so good. *



SHOW ME DA MONEY

I tell it Like it is

& can even admit to making a mistake
If u look at my post it say's My Cadge Fight is in Sept.

When it's realy in Jan


----------



## JDenz

Whoops lol


----------



## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Good post but that is what I have been saying all along.  Everyone should wrestle just boys should wrestle boys and girls should wrestle girls.  Wrestling is getting sued by crossdressers and sex change opperation patentents now, so in the near future look for conterversal rulings still on the way. *



Yeah, too much crap to go through, just keep them seperate. I don't think I would have any trouble now as an adult wrestling a woman, but dont ask a 15 year old guy to wrestle his high school crush Britney Spears lookalike, not a good idea.

7sm


----------



## JDenz

that is my thought


----------



## ace

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Yeah, too much crap to go through, just keep them seperate. I don't think I would have any trouble now as an adult wrestling a woman, but dont ask a 15 year old guy to wrestle his high school crush Britney Spears lookalike, not a good idea.
> 
> 7sm *



=-) I agree 150%


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *=-) I agree 150% *



Hey *acer!* Good to hear...err... read from you bro. You sportsfans don't visit MartialTalk enough. We need you to drop your takes on the martial arts more often. Ya should visit here more... :asian:


----------



## Ceicei

The ALCU has stepped into the fray to get a female wrestler into the tournament.  She wants to wrestle with the boys because there aren't enough female wrestlers.  See the article:

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2466259

 Do you agree or disagree with the decision of the officials?  Is an all-girls division a satisfactory solution, or would you have wanted wrestling to go co-ed anyway?

 - Ceicei


----------



## Ping898

As a martial artist I hate it when I am in tournaments and they seperate the men and women.  I find sparring the men more of a challange and prefer it.  

Unless they can do up a full and equal sized grouping of females with equal skills they should combine the guys and the girls and if the guys don't like it, my thoughts on it are oh well.


----------



## still learning

Hello, My son is a sophmore at his high school and is on the wrestling team. The boys and girls train together and wrestle together, Tournments are separate. Yes you can see how the guys grappler and you wonder about there movements on the girls. So far the girls have not made this an issue. the guys are very much aware and try not to get to involve with certain holds and pins. Watching this as a parent as a father of a boy, makes me feel un easy but if I had a daughter, I think I would say something to the coaches. The girls do get a good work out and learn new moves. I have not talk to the girls and do not know there feeling on this. In the Hawaii schools boys wrestle boys and girls wrestle girls. Two of the returning girls are State wrestling champs. Judo is the same,girls and the boys train together at the school. What is the right thing to do? For sure we need the kids input,besides parent, coaches and the school stystem.


----------



## Ceicei

still learning said:
			
		

> The girls do get a good work out and learn new moves. I have not talk to the girls and do not know there feeling on this. In the Hawaii schools boys wrestle boys and girls wrestle girls. Two of the returning girls are State wrestling champs. Judo is the same,girls and the boys train together at the school. What is the right thing to do? For sure we need the kids input,besides parent, coaches and the school stystem.


 As you say, Judo has similar issues.  I will have to admit I've never watched an actual Judo tournament that is co-ed (males competing with females).  

 In tournaments, they go by weight division.  Why should the issue of female/male matches make it be different if pound for pound, they may be evenly matched.  It looks more like the issue has to do with social views rather than simply a concern of gender difference and abilities.

 Does social views have a place in sports/martial arts when competition is based primarily on skill and physical abilities?

 - Ceicei


----------

