# Taekwondo Master too harsh for my  almost 5 year old?



## Calliegirl (Jul 26, 2012)

Hi, there!

Okay, so my husband and I have always wanted both of our children to take Taekwondo. We thought we "shopped" around well and decided on a place. Our Grandmaster is full Korean (trained in Korea) and has a good resume (8th or 9th degree blackbelt?), served in Korean military, etc. 

I definitely don't want to paint a false picture of him becasue he is very nice to the children. Hugs them, gives them high fives, etc. HOWEVER, he does have a stick (forget the Korean name) that he carries around. In the beginning, I barey noticed it. Now, it seems he uses it more and more. I am 100% confident he would NEVER hurt a child. He can be waving it and, then, hug a child the next minute. However, he does use it to intimidate/scare a child into good behavior if they are not focusing (remember, my child is 4 1/2). More alarming to me, is he does wack/hit/pat (whatever you want to call it) on their back, bottom of their feet, bottom, etc. even when they just do something not right or if he feels they are not focusing enough to do it right. It is not enough to hurt, but to get their attention. I see my son's eyes get bugged out and he is afaid of it. We don't do any kind of spanking or corporal punishment so this is pretty new to him. In the car the other day, he told me that "if Master ever slaps him again, he will want to walk out and never take TKD again". This alarms me. First of all, whether true or not, his 4 year old perception is that he slaps him. Second, he is learning you get your way through intimidation. Third, I don't want him to want to quit TKD. 

Talking to more parents, I hear this is common. The other parents don't seem to mind "since it doesn't hurt" them. I am worried about the principle. Another parent told me her son was taking a stick to their younger brother and asking if he wanted to get smacked like the master said. 

I don't want to be the weanie parent. I would not be complaining if he "hit" while they were sparring as in that case, you are "fighting" with protective gear, but this is not the case. It is a tool he is using to teach. I am going to try to talk to him, but there is a definite communication barrier. If he does agree to stop waving it in front of my son, I then have to decide if that is good enough - still see it happening with others.

What do you guys think? okay? 

There is one other school I can try that does not do this, but the times are more inconvenient, the master's resume is not as great, but I am willing to switch if need be. I just want a reality check from others. My son does want to switch.

Thanks, in advance!


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## dancingalone (Jul 26, 2012)

This would not bother me, but I am an Asian American and my father was similarly 'strict' with me.  When he corrected me for behavior or while he was giving me instruction in something, he was very matter-of-fact and business-like, and I am sure he could seem abrupt to others.  

But really I don't think the issue is whether you need a reality check or not.  You clearly are not comfortable at all with how he uses a stick, and I would think this is only the tip of the iceberg with the conflict you would find with how the school master operates.  Atmosphere, culture, and personal relationships are important in martial arts between student and teacher, between parents and school.  Just as it would be difficult for the teacher to change, so too would it be hard for you to change what your gut reaction to events are.

So maybe you can talk to him, but it might also be a good idea for you to consider whether the school fits your family... and vice versa?


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## jks9199 (Jul 26, 2012)

Before I get into anything else, it seems like you're assessing a lot on their "resumes" without a lot of knowledge.  I may be wrong -- but unless you have the background, you can't assess their resume.  If my bosses came to me tomorrow and said "Jim, you're going to hire the next Street Maintenance Supervisor", I'd call them idiots.  Because I know just enough about that stuff to be dangerous... I lack the knowledge to assess a resume.  Belt ranks alone are almost meaningless.  I've been training around 25 years, maybe a bit longer.  I'm currently a 3rd level black belt.  I'm sure there are people on this board who haven't trained a decade, and are 3rd degree.  There's lots that goes into that; I haven't tested for more than a decade, by choice.  Same thing with nationality, with military background, and so on...  

Which segues me to the real issue.  Are you comfortable with the environment and staff where your children are training? Honestly, it doesn't sound like it to me.  And with kids in the 5 to 10 year old range -- that's the most important thing.  If the guy was a soccer coach who beaned the kids with a soccer ball if their attention seemed to be wandering or a baseball coach who hits the kid whose attention wanders in the outfield with a bat -- would you even hesitate to call him on it?  I'm not impressed with this, though I reserve a good deal of judgment since I don't actually know whether we're talking a light touch or a swat.

In the end, the thing that matters is whether or not your kids have fun and whether or not your kids are enjoying it, and whether you are comfortable with the training they receive.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 26, 2012)

My suggestion is to trust your first instinct. If you're uncomfortable, there is an issue. More to the point, your child is uncomfortable and that is a serious issue. I have no problem with spankings and such. Got a few growing up myself. But the issue here that it is the parents job, not the instructor. Too be honest, if someone hit my son it would become a very bad day for them. Too be brutally honest, he'd find himself on the ground with an impending trip to jail. I've trained children who were basically delinquents trying to get their act together. So the attention span and discipline wasn't always spectacular. But I used command presence, not a stick to keep their attention and focus. If this 'master' needs a stick, he's not a very good instructor. Particularly with children.

As mentioned above, his belt rank doesn't mean a whole lot.  Without opening up a can of worms, belts can be bought in some circles and doesn't have a thing to do with actual experience.

I know that some may consider this a 'cultural thing', well beating your wife in the middle east is a cultural thing but it isn't right or acceptable.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 26, 2012)

One other question;  does he use this stick with adults or just little kids?


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## Calliegirl (Jul 26, 2012)

To answer questions...I haven't seen him train adults, but he does use it with older/teenage children. My son is not unruly at all...my play in line a bit (like a small kid will do). 

Another thing...with the soccer example, you are right. I would pull him in a second. However, I didn't know of this is something used in TKD as a mental thing (?) since I did ask another friend of mine who said their master in another state did a similiar thing. 

I really appreciate all of your thoughts, thanks!


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 26, 2012)

I was never against corporal punishment with my daughters.  However, I always thought it was my job to do.  I would not have likely looked with favor on anyone else who did so.  More importantly, since your son isn't used to it, whether or not I think corporal punishment would be good for your son is not up for grabs.  That is for you to decide.  I don't expect his teacher to be likely to change.  Like it or not, it seems to be his way.  If you can't get you son to accept that, I would probably move him.  Just be careful he doesn't learn a way to control you and your husband.  Little kids don't make such decisions, parents do.  So if you want to change, be sure your son realizes it is your decision.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 26, 2012)

Paying money to be hit by a stick is bizarre. When is it the student's turn to hit the Master??  Equally odd to me is hugging kids.  As a man, that is the last thing I would do, for legal reasons.


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## jks9199 (Jul 26, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Paying money to be hit by a stick is bizarre. When is it the student's turn to hit the Master??  Equally odd to me is hugging kids.  As a man, that is the last thing I would do, for legal reasons.



There's that, too...  Though there's room for it in appropriate manners and circumstances.  Things have gotten to insane places of late, where school teachers have to bend themselves into pretzels trying to show a student the error on their paper to avoid any incidental contact, rather than simply lean over the students shoulder.

Again, I'm not condemning the instructor.  I personally tended to balance a recognition of the limits of a kid's attention span and the use of exercise to maintain focus... but the stick might work.  And a lot depends on if it's a touch or a light hit or laying the kid out...  

I'll repeat myself:  In the end, if it's causing you concern as a parent, you need to decide what you want to do about it.  You might discuss it with the instructor -- or you might change schools.


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## Carol (Jul 26, 2012)

I do not think you are being a weenie parent at all.  I think you are being carefully observant and wise.

This is A LOT of touching of a 4 year old boy that is downright inappropriate in my mind.

This stick does not sound like a teaching tool...this sounds like utter laziness.  The instructor is whacking kids as a shortcut to proper class communication.  I personally train in a stickfighting art...even in that environment I have never had an instructor whack an adult or a child for disciplinary reasons or simply to get their attention.

He is 4.  Martial arts should be fun.  He has the chance to interact with other kids his age, to get some exercise, and learn age-appropriate lessons about respect, protocol, discipline and structure....but it should still be simple and fun.   He should NOT be in fear of getting hit with a weapon.  And IMO he should be with a teacher that knows how to keep their hands to themselves.   If it were me?  I'd get him out pronto.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 26, 2012)

I can see using a stick during class the same way a school teacher might use it by tapping it on the black board to get your attention.  A martial arts teacher could tap it on the ground, or in his hand or on his own leg so the sound gets the attention.  Not as an intimidation tool, but as a sound that calls you to attention.  A 4yr old doesn't need to be intimidated to gain focus.  As stated above, he's either a lazy instructor, a poor instructor or both.  I think you're rightly concerned and this is an issue.


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## dancingalone (Jul 26, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> As stated above, he's either a lazy instructor, a poor instructor or both.



Or a person from a very different culture and a very different time.  No need to input negative qualities onto the man without knowing him personally.  The OP would know best along with whether his school is a good long term fit for her son.


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## Carol (Jul 26, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Or a person from a very different culture and a very different time.  No need to input negative qualities onto the man without knowing him personally.  The OP would know best along with whether his school is a good long term fit for her son.



I can appreciate a different culture, and different ways...even ways I don't personally agree with.  Consistency breeds credibility.  What threw the big red flag for me was OP not noticing the stick hardly at all early on and then the instructor using it more and more.  That to my eyes looks more like a crutch than a different way of doing things.

I could be completely wrong.  I hope I am.


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## dancingalone (Jul 26, 2012)

Carol said:


> I can appreciate a different culture, and different ways...even ways I don't personally agree with.  Consistency breeds credibility.  What threw the big red flag for me was OP not noticing the stick hardly at all early on and then the instructor using it more and more.  That to my eyes looks more like a crutch than a different way of doing things.
> 
> I could be completely wrong.  I hope I am.



Of course it's a crutch, perhaps one needed because of a language barrier.  But a crutch is also a tool.  Useful in some situations, not so useful in others.  In this case, it's a tool this particular teacher has chosen to employ, and I believe if he is an older man who spent the bulk of his life in Asia, his teaching and learning experiences will be very different from what we expect today in the USA.

Whether than is good or not depends on the individual student.  It is fine to not fit the norms of his current location so long as he does not break any laws, and the success of his teaching method will be borne out in whether he can keep his doors open and whether he produces quality students.

It does sound however like the OP might be better served with another school though.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 26, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Or a person from a very different culture and a very different time.  No need to input negative qualities onto the man without knowing him personally.  The OP would know best along with whether his school is a good long term fit for her son.



With respect, I stand by my comments based upon the available information provided.  Children, particularly pre-K do not need to feel intimidated or threatened.  It is a bad way to teach regardless of culture.  You're not training a hardened warrior at age 4, your teaching a kid that isn't even in kindergarten yet.  They need patient guidance and to be led by example.  Using a stick to gain attention and/or compliance sends entirely the wrong message.


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## Gorilla (Jul 26, 2012)

Some of this is culture.  Having said that if it makes you uncomfortable then have a talk with the instructor.  I have seen this done but was comfortable with the situation.  If it went in a bad way I was there to handle the situation.

This is not uncommon for the old school Korean Masters.  Which is the type of school we started in!


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## Ironcrane (Jul 26, 2012)

I personally started my training under the 'stick whacking method', and it was how my teacher was trained himself. I was never hit very hard, and it never caused any problems, or ever became an issue. So to me this sounds like this isn't the right school for your son.


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## Calliegirl (Jul 27, 2012)

Thank you, everyone! To clairify, yes, it is indeed his culture. Very nice man and good intentions, but I was told he was raised and learned Taekwondo with this stick. He calls it "chocolate" like his mom did and asks the kids "Do you want some chocolate"??. Again, the whacks do not hurt, but are totally meant to intimidate. I am embarassed to even write this as I am thinking "How did I ever justify this"? However, it seems to have ramped up. Today, they were running in a big circle to warm up. I was watching from my car (have a two year old) and could see my son grinning as he loves to run. Then, saw the master in the middle waving his stick and learning forward to "tap" a few. I was thinking how I would be scared in that environment. Again, he does not hurt, but it is a threat that would be scary to a little kid.

I am going off my insticts and pulling him. I just wanted to run this by some people who knew more about martial arts environments then me. In addition, I am pretty loyal and do like this master....just not the best fit for teaching my son. We just went to talk to another Takewondo place and feel it is a much better fit for us. I am very excited happy to change. My son's face lit up and he said he wanted to go there. So glad he does not want to quit, but just wants a change in environment. Thanks, again.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 27, 2012)

Hi Calliegirl,

Firstly, I'll say that the most important thing is that everyone is comfortable with the school, the teacher, the other students, and so on, both yourself as a parent, and your child as the student there. And in that regard, I wholeheartedly agree that, if you're not comfortable with the way the classes are run, or if your son is expressing concern about the "stick", then definitely pull him out of there. 

That said, I'm going to go back to your OP and see if we can get to how you've ended up in this predicament. Small warning, I'm not necessarily going to hold much back here.



Calliegirl said:


> Hi, there!



Hi!



Calliegirl said:


> Okay, so my husband and I have always wanted both of our children to take Taekwondo.



Why? Have either of you got any experience in TKD, or any martial art? Why TKD? What do you think the benefits would be, that you're looking for for your kids?



Calliegirl said:


> We thought we "shopped" around well and decided on a place.


 
Again, I'd ask what experience you or your husband might have to do much "shopping around", at least in an informed way. Please note that I'm not saying you aren't able, I'm just trying to get some perspective of where you were coming from in this case.



Calliegirl said:


> Our Grandmaster is full Korean (trained in Korea) and has a good resume (8th or 9th degree blackbelt?), served in Korean military, etc.



Yeah, this is what I was talking about. He's full Korean... and? Does that make him a great teacher? Does that mean he understands teaching kids? Does that mean anything along those lines? He's an 8th or 9th Dan... so he's been around in the art a long time. Which means he is decades removed from being in a class with kids, in all probability, especially if the majority of his training was in Korea. And he was in the Korean military? What does that mean? What I mean by that is, why would that be important, or even desired? After all, you're questioning disciplinary methods as employed by a teacher who learnt the art in a highly disciplinary environment and culture (in terms of the art), has dedicated his life to such an approach, and comes from a highly disciplinary (military) background... are you really surprised that such approaches are employed by him? These are the hallmarks I'd be looking for is disciplinary methods were desired as part of the class, really.



Calliegirl said:


> I definitely don't want to paint a false picture of him becasue he is very nice to the children. Hugs them, gives them high fives, etc. HOWEVER, he does have a stick (forget the Korean name) that he carries around. In the beginning, I barey noticed it. Now, it seems he uses it more and more. I am 100% confident he would NEVER hurt a child. He can be waving it and, then, hug a child the next minute. However, he does use it to intimidate/scare a child into good behavior if they are not focusing (remember, my child is 4 1/2).



Again, I'd ask what you wanted your son to get out of martial art classes, especially at that young age. From the way you're describing this, there's no physical abuse taking place, but the teacher is taking his role of teaching the art seriously, and is doing what he feels is necessary for the kids to learn it properly. I'd personally argue that it's not that important at their age, but I've certainly seen such approaches to teaching kids. Really, it's a form of "tough love", if you will... a mixture of carrot and stick. And if you've sent your son into a martial art class to help with his discipline (not saying that's the case here, but it is a common reason that parents send their kids to classes), why would you be upset that that's what he's enforcing?



Calliegirl said:


> More alarming to me, is he does wack/hit/pat (whatever you want to call it) on their back, bottom of their feet, bottom, etc. even when they just do something not right or if he feels they are not focusing enough to do it right.



Hmm, there's quite a difference between a "whack" and a "pat"... can you be any more precise? Is he just tapping them to indicate which part of their body is in the wrong position, or is it more solid (but still gentle) to any available area for them to pay attention to him (possibly due to language barriers or issues with communication)?



Calliegirl said:


> It is not enough to hurt, but to get their attention.



So they pay attention to the instructor? Isn't that what you want, though?



Calliegirl said:


> I see my son's eyes get bugged out and he is afaid of it.



This is the first indication that there is a reason to take him out, really. So far it's been your perspective of something that you're an outsider to.



Calliegirl said:


> We don't do any kind of spanking or corporal punishment so this is pretty new to him. In the car the other day, he told me that "if Master ever slaps him again, he will want to walk out and never take TKD again". This alarms me.



Look, without getting into the whole pro-con argument of corporal punishment, I would point out that the lack of such forms of enforcing discipline in the home can only amplify the issues if it is encountered outside the family (in this case, in a martial art class). I don't think the idea of avoiding corporal punishment serves to protect the child at all, as it really leaves them unable to handle situations where some form of physical enforcement of behaviour is employed. I might suggest that, despite your desires for him, due to the lack of preparation from his homelife, TKD (or any martial art, really) might not be right for him at this age.



Calliegirl said:


> First of all, whether true or not, his 4 year old perception is that he slaps him.



Firstly, I'd talk to the young lad and clarify what he means when he says "slap".



Calliegirl said:


> Second, he is learning you get your way through intimidation.



Secondly, I don't know that that's what he's learning. Has he indicated in any way that that's been the lesson? Has he started trying to intimidate others in order to get his way? The actual lesson is more one of listening to authority figures... in other words, it's a disciplinary approach.



Calliegirl said:


> Third, I don't want him to want to quit TKD.



But what does he want? Did he want to start TKD in the first place? If a disciplined environment isn't the right thing for him right now, how about you find out what he wants... he might go back to it later on. He's a child, not even at school age yet. Time really is on his side. Pressuring him to continue won't really give much in the way of benefits.



Calliegirl said:


> Talking to more parents, I hear this is common. The other parents don't seem to mind "since it doesn't hurt" them. I am worried about the principle.



What principle? One that you're reading into it? One that is actually present? One that doesn't fit with your ideals on teaching children, but might fit better with other parents, especially where something like a martial art, trained for disciplinary reasons, is concerned?



Calliegirl said:


> Another parent told me her son was taking a stick to their younger brother and asking if he wanted to get smacked like the master said.



Then that kid needs to be pulled aside and have the difference explained. I'd bring the instructor into the conversation, to ensure the same message is being sent both at home and at the school, but in essence, I'd be putting a lot of that on a lack of boundaries enforced by the parents.



Calliegirl said:


> I don't want to be the weanie parent. I would not be complaining if he "hit" while they were sparring as in that case, you are "fighting" with protective gear, but this is not the case.



Really? I'm pretty sure that if the 8th or 9th Dan instructor was sparring with the 4 year olds, and started hitting them seriously, you'd have an issue with that... Really, it all comes down to context; what is the context of the "hitting"? Why is it employed?



Calliegirl said:


> It is a tool he is using to teach. I am going to try to talk to him, but there is a definite communication barrier.



Yes, it is just a tool he is using to teach. Why he is using that tool, and how he is using it, comes down to him, and you can only get that information from talking to him. I wouldn't necessarily expect him to stop for you, though. He might explain why his classes are run the way they are, what his values are that he is trying to instill in the kids, and how he does that with the methods he uses, but honestly, if you don't like it, you're free to remove your child.


Calliegirl said:


> If he does agree to stop waving it in front of my son, I then have to decide if that is good enough - still see it happening with others.



Here's the thing. There's a large degree of "consumer mentality" out there, and it's rather a negative influence on martial arts. There's the expectation that, as the paying parent/student, you get to dictate what happens in the class. Sorry, no. Not in the slightest. By paying, you are paying for a particular service that that instructor is providing... you're not paying to tell them how to do what they're doing. When you go to a movie theatre, you pay to see a particular movie. You might like it, you might not, you could even walk out of it, but you can't re-direct it, re-cast it, re-write it, or anything else. Martial art classes are very much like that. You're paying for this instructor to teach your child TKD based on their credentials and success, as well as the perceived benefits of the class/art itself. If you're happy with how things are presented, you pay for the class, and get the most out of it. If you're not, you don't dictate changes in the class, you stop paying and stop attending.

I'll put it this way: I teach Ninjutsu. There is a large weaponry component to our art, with some of the more commonly presented weapons (in my school) being knife and hanbo (a three foot stick, which realistically is used dominantly to break an opponents bones... as a result, the teaching is geared around generating bone breaking power and targeting). Additionally, there are a large range of subjects and methods which require a more mature mindset, and as a result, I only teach adults. I will have parents call up fairly regularly to ask about their children joining, though, mainly due to popular media using the "ninja" image in cartoons, movies, etc. I point out to these parents that I only teach adults... I will make exceptions for students as young as 16, provided they can demonstrate the required maturity, but I'm not about to accept a 10 year old, as I don't feel right giving them skills in using a knife combatively, or how to break other peoples bones with a stick, then sending them out onto a schoolyard. In a number of cases, the parents have asked if I could just teach their child "the other parts" instead... or if I could "not teach those weapons" when their kid is in the class. Uh... nope. The class is what it is. I'm not about to change the entire class for a single student. 



Calliegirl said:


> What do you guys think? okay?



I think there isn't enough information to be completely sure one way or the other, but hopefully the above will give you some idea of an alternate understanding.



Calliegirl said:


> There is one other school I can try that does not do this, but the times are more inconvenient, the master's resume is not as great, but I am willing to switch if need be. I just want a reality check from others. My son does want to switch.



Forget the "resume". The only thing that's important is that your son is happy and comfortable in the class. If you're so insistent on him taking TKD, do what you can to support him... but be clear on what you're after (for him) out of the training. It might just be that such aspects actually give the benefits you want.



Calliegirl said:


> Thanks, in advance!



Not a problem. Hopefully this will give you a bit more food for thought. But sit down with your son, ask what he feels, and what he wants. That should be your main criteria as to where he goes.


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## Markku P (Jul 27, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> With respect, I stand by my comments based upon the available information provided.  Children, particularly pre-K do not need to feel intimidated or threatened.  It is a bad way to teach regardless of culture.  You're not training a hardened warrior at age 4, your teaching a kid that isn't even in kindergarten yet.  They need patient guidance and to be led by example.  Using a stick to gain attention and/or compliance sends entirely the wrong message.



I agree with this. I personally would not allow my kids to train there. Using the stick is a red flag in any circumstances.

/Markku P.


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## Markku P (Jul 27, 2012)

Calliegirl said:


> Hi, there!
> 
> Okay, so my husband and I have always wanted both of our children to take Taekwondo. We thought we "shopped" around well and decided on a place. Our Grandmaster is full Korean (trained in Korea) and has a good resume (8th or 9th degree blackbelt?), served in Korean military, etc.



This has nothing to do if the person is a good teacher. My first Teacher was 8ht Dan that time and he was horrible as a teacher. On the other hand, I have seen teachers who had low ranks but were very good as a teacher.

/Markku P.


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## Markku P (Jul 27, 2012)

Calliegirl said:


> However, he does use it to intimidate/scare a child into good behavior if they are not focusing (remember, my child is 4 1/2). More alarming to me, is he does wack/hit/pat (whatever you want to call it) on their back, bottom of their feet, bottom, etc. even when they just do something not right or if he feels they are not focusing enough to do it right. It is not enough to hurt, but to get their attention.



A professional teacher don't need teach like this. In my experience with Korean Masters is actually opposite. Most of them has been so good that they don't need to scare or intimidate students. 

/Markku P.


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## SuperFLY (Jul 27, 2012)

couldnt have said it any better than Chris did above.

in my personal opinion, i think you're over-reacting. 

the term 'corporal punishment', 'intimidation' and 'hitting' get thrown around way too much these days. they are COMPLETELY different to what you've described in your original post. sounds more like corrective methods to me.

is he old? is there a language barrier? would be far easier for him to tap a foot to get them to move it into the correct place than to stand there and try to explain it. where i train there are a lot of kids in some of the classes and they have to be corrected. either by moving their arms/legs into the proper place. we dont prod em with a stick but we will tap the arm, move it, shake it or whatever. it gives the child a clear message of what 'limb' they need to be moving. much more effective than just saying 'the left one' (you'd be shocked the amount of kids we have ranging from 5-12+ that still cant seem to tell their left from their right)

in short, you say multiple times he doesnt hurt them, he's friendly etc.. he's just using it as a teaching aid, a corrective tool.. nothing more. id say the disciplinary aspect of it is more a side effect and in my opinion can only be a positive one from what you've already described.

that said its your child and if he's unhappy and would prefer to go elsewhere then fair enough. id be interested whether he is actually unhappy though or that he just doesnt like getting 'corrected'


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 27, 2012)

Honesty time.  
1. Sometimes I wish we had jst a touch of corporal punsihment to straighten some kids out. 
2. Never hit a kid to cause injury - But - there is something I do that some might ?? consider inn apropriate. We allow punching to the face. I think getting punched in the face is bad. I teach a guarding stance where the lead fist is between your nodse and your opponents and the rear hand is by your ear. (https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...8qKu2MmVpO49zKUh_7HT1IPo1WQVUw&attredirects=0  )

When kids and adults are in this stance I tap their lead hand with the target paddle. It shows how the straight line attack is denied. If they drop their hand they get tapped on the forhead. I explain that they may not like getting hiot with "This" (Paddle) but getting hit with "This" (fist) is worse.  I tell them to remeber this lesson when they spar and get hit in the face and see if they simply gave the opponent the opening.


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## miguksaram (Jul 27, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> My suggestion is to trust your first instinct. If you're uncomfortable, there is an issue. More to the point, your child is uncomfortable and that is a serious issue.


I agree...if you don't like his methods, then it is time to find another school.



> I have no problem with spankings and such. Got a few growing up myself. But the issue here that it is the parents job, not the instructor. Too be honest, if someone hit my son it would become a very bad day for them. Too be brutally honest, he'd find himself on the ground with an impending trip to jail.


While I agree that if some teacher hit my kid with a malicous intent, hit him extremely hard just to prove a point of discipline I would be all over it.  However, I think you are over-reacting to the situation being presented or at least you seem to be taking this to the extreme.  She already mentioned that he doesn't beat them or hit to hurt so much to initimidate.



> I've trained children who were basically delinquents trying to get their act together. So the attention span and discipline wasn't always spectacular. But I used command presence, not a stick to keep their attention and focus. If this 'master' needs a stick, he's not a very good instructor. Particularly with children.


You do not know this for a fact on from the lady is saying.  I am not sure if you teach 4-5 year olds, but what I have found is showing a command presence tends to intimidate them more to tears than a light tap with a stick.  I teach 3 1/2 - 5 year class and while I do not use a stick I do use the kicking paddle to occassionally tap them on the head, or light pop on the butt when they are not behaving or to get their attention.



> I know that some may consider this a 'cultural thing', well beating your wife in the middle east is a cultural thing but it isn't right or acceptable.



It is a cultural thing.  If you understood Korean education system and how the parents discipline their kids, you would understand the intent here.  Comparing what this instructor is doing to wife beating is a bad comparison.  From what she has told us, he does not beat them.  He uses it as a way to maintain discipline and focus, not beat them as a form a punishment.


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## miguksaram (Jul 27, 2012)

Markku P said:


> A professional teacher don't need teach like this. In my experience with Korean Masters is actually opposite. Most of them has been so good that they don't need to scare or intimidate students.
> 
> /Markku P.


Depends on the instructor and how he was raised in the martial arts.  My kumdo teacher would strike us on the wrist with a jukdo if we did not have our hand positions correct.  My TSD/Wing Chun instructor was Puerto Rican and he would pop us on the leg if our stances were not correct.  I had an instructor who had no problem round house kickig you in the gut if he saw you losing focus.  Why, because that is how they were brought up in the martial arts.  Also, keep in mind, that this was in early 80's for most of them.  Now and days we live in fluffy happy world where these types of things just don't happen anymore.


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## Manny (Jul 27, 2012)

My mastre has in the dojang: a) a piece of bamboo from a shinai, this thin piece cust the air like hell when you wipe it, b) three bokens that surely he uses too to dicipline and c) something that remainds me a kind of oar.

I don't know if my master uses one of these devices to correct behavoir in little children, I don't think so but he definetively uses those devices if need it to correct the teens and youngsters even he slaps the students with open hand in the shoulder or the chest when the behavoir relaxes in class, some times he uses the situps/pushups to equailize a teen.

I feel 4-7 years old must not take martialñ arts class, they are too little to comprehend, etc,etc, please don't crucifix me I juts don't like to teach small children, I think martial art classes are good for childrem from 8 years  and ahead.

My ex sambonim (JDKwaner) could be be very severe with teens and above and always a strong look or word could makie things work out, howevere there was one time he sparred (no rules) with a black belt student (maybe 17 or soo years old) because the master give him a call and he did not listen to the master.

I know you are very worried about your child, he is to young and maybe scared of master, however you must know asian masters tend to be more exigent.

If you feel unconfortable maybe you should look another dojang where the master is more frindly with thje children.

Manny


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> She already mentioned that he doesn't beat them or hit to hurt so much to initimidate.



A grown man has no business intimidating a 4yr old with a stick.  It is as simple as that.



> You do not know this for a fact on from the lady is saying.  I am not  sure if you teach 4-5 year olds, but what I have found is showing a  command presence tends to intimidate them more to tears than a light tap  with a stick.



Then you don't understand what command presence means Jeremy.  I'm not talking boot camp drill instructor.  Command presence, which I teach to recruits can be non-verbal as well as verbal and commands respect more than causes intimidation.



> I had an instructor who had no problem round house kickig you in the gut if he saw you losing focus.



Round-house kicking to the gut to maintain focus, what a great teaching tool :uhoh:  I put this right up there with your buddy who needed a full year to recover from an injury his instructor caused but maintains it was a 'gift' he was given.  Funny, I've taught professionals for decades who actually use this stuff successfully for real and never had to hit/kick/stomp/injure any of them.  I've taught children who had less than stellar attention spans and never had to resort to threats or intimidation to keep them motivated and coming back.  I don't except 'culture' as an excuse for bad teaching practices.


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## miguksaram (Jul 27, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> A grown man has no business intimidating a 4yr old with a stick. It is as simple as that.


Apparently you never been to an old fasion Catholic school where a ruler seemed to work well. 





> Then you don't understand what command presence means Jeremy. I'm not talking boot camp drill instructor. Command presence, which I teach to recruits can be non-verbal as well as verbal and commands respect more than causes intimidation.


Yes, I can see that working for older kids, but we are talking about 4-5 year olds.  Have you taught that age group?





> Round-house kicking to the gut to maintain focus, what a great teaching tool :uhoh: I put this right up there with your buddy who needed a full year to recover from an injury his instructor caused but maintains it was a 'gift' he was given. Funny, I've taught professionals for decades who actually use this stuff successfully for real and never had to hit/kick/stomp/injure any of them. I've taught children who had less than stellar attention spans and never had to resort to threats or intimidation to keep them motivated and coming back. I don't except 'culture' as an excuse for bad teaching practices.


Whatever....What you deem as bad teaching practices seems to work well in many other countries, especially those that are kicking our *** in education.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Apparently you never been to an old fasion Catholic school where a ruler seemed to work well.



Would this be the same institution that allows the rapes of little boys then covers it up?  Not a very good comparison.    



> Yes, I can see that working for older kids, but we are talking about 4-5 year olds.  Have you taught that age group?



Works well for them as well since they are looking for role models at that age, not bully tactics from grown men that should know better.  And yes.


> Whatever....What you deem as bad teaching practices seems to work well  in many other countries, especially those that are kicking our *** in  education.



Your mixing apples and oranges, again.  I doubt they round house kick a kid to the gut in math class in Korea.


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## Markku P (Jul 27, 2012)

My philosophy is very simple. No threats, no physical punishments etc. ( not even push ups if you arrive late to class like my Karate teacher did with us late -70 )It doesn't matter if we are talking about adults or children. Not even with "sense of humor". A really good teacher don't need to any kind of abuse toward his students.

/Markku P.


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## igillman (Jul 27, 2012)

If you or your child feel uncomfortable then it is time to find a new school. It does not matter if the reason seems trivial or silly to you, the fact that you feel uncomfortable is enough to make the switch.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2012)

Markku P said:


> My philosophy is very simple. No threats, no physical punishments etc. ( not even push ups if you arrive late to class like my Karate teacher did with us late -70 )It doesn't matter if we are talking about adults or children. Not even with "sense of humor". A really good teacher don't need to any kind of abuse toward his students.
> 
> /Markku P.



Agreed.  There are far too many good teaching tools to resort to these negative tactics.  Failure on the part of an instructor to learn good teaching methods only demonstrates that maybe they shouldn't be teaching.  

And yes, I'm very passionate when it comes to children.  I've been on the receiving end of physical and emotional abuse as a child.  It sucks and is something no child should ever go through on any level.  Childhood is a special time that only happens once and although it can't always be puppy dog dreams and ice cream, a good instructor can make it a rewarding and positive experience that the child then passes on when they become older.  Regardless of whether they teach MA's or not.


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## Markku P (Jul 27, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Agreed.  There are far too many good teaching tools to resort to these negative tactics.  Failure on the part of an instructor to learn good teaching methods only demonstrates that maybe they shouldn't be teaching.
> 
> And yes, I'm very passionate when it comes to children.  I've been on the receiving end of physical and emotional abuse as a child.  It sucks and is something no child should ever go through on any level.  Childhood is a special time that only happens once and although it can't always be puppy dog dreams and ice cream, a good instructor can make it a rewarding and positive experience that the child then passes on when they become older.  Regardless of whether they teach MA's or not.



What I am most worried is that many in this forum seems to think it's OK to give "physical punishment" even a small one. ( or am I wrong with this? ) I don't care if the teacher is from another culture or has learned that way. Today we should know better.

/Markku P.


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## IcemanSK (Jul 27, 2012)

My first master occasionally walked around (the adult class populated with many teens in the mid 80's) with an oak stick that was cane length. He would use it to correct our stances by moving (or lightly tapping) our leg. It was for intimidation more than anything. In fact, I'm not sure I ever saw him hit anyone hard with it. I'd bet that the stick was in the corner or his office more than it ever was in his hand. His tone of voice expressing displeasure was all the correction we needed. I doubt the kids class even knew he had that stick.

I've trained under several teachers with varying teaching styles. Some I could learn from, others I couldn't.

People (adults & kids alike) respond to different teaching styles. No matter how good an instructor is, he/she may not be able to connect with everyone. If a student, or a parent, doesn't feel comfortable where they are training, they need to go find a place where they can thrive. I applaud the OP for asking out loud the questions that she had. I wish her & her son the best.


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## Tez3 (Jul 28, 2012)

As a few of us have said in a simliar thread that also current, a four year old even if he's nearly five should be, if you insist he has to do martial arts, in a class for children the same age, ie a class that just teaches the very basics suitable for that age, they play games and it is a preparation for starting martial arts at any time from about nine/ten upwards. Children who aren't much more than toddlers should be having fun not participating in adult type martial arts classes.


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## miguksaram (Jul 30, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Would this be the same institution that allows the rapes of little boys then covers it up? Not a very good comparison.


Apples and oranges.  If we are going to take it to that extreme, then a public school which does not utilize a ruler to the knuckles has its fair share of rapes, and yes, the public schools get away with such atrocities as well, can anyone say Penn State?




> Your mixing apples and oranges, again. I doubt they round house kick a kid to the gut in math class in Korea.


I'm the one mixing my apples and oranges?  While they are not round kicking in the gut, they are smacking with a stick and smaking them upside their head.  Perhaps you need to learn more about Korean culture and history, before you start condeming their methods.


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## ETinCYQX (Jul 30, 2012)

Whether we think you need a reality check is irrelevant. You and your son have to be happy with the training, that's all that's important. He's obviously not happy.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 30, 2012)

Markku P said:


> What I am most worried is that many in this forum seems to think it's OK to give "physical punishment" even a small one.



I'm afraid it has more to do with defending a culture with some on the board, than the actual practice itself.  Not surprising, but it is a pity.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 30, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Paying money to be hit by a stick is bizarre. When is it the student's turn to hit the Master?? Equally odd to me is hugging kids. As a man, that is the last thing I would do, for legal reasons.



I have paid for the priviledge to get hit with a stick. I also have gotten paid for it. And the chance is usually when you are not expecting it from the student.   Of this is TKD thread and not FMA.


*****

As to the topic, as already stated, if you do not like it move the child to some other place. It is your money and your child. 

I also agree with JKS and that until you know more, the resume is nothing but the sign used to get you through the door. It does not tell you about quality, or the capaibility of the instructor to communicate with you. They might be great with adults and not kids, or great with kids and not adults. Or they just might not be anything but a person trying their best.


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## granfire (Jul 30, 2012)

my 2 cents worth and I might have to ask fr change:

I find that in a non corporal climate the actual contact is over exaggerated. Meaning that the actual energy transmitted in the contact stands in no correlation to the words used to describe it. Of course, only you can tell how hard the contact really is.

Not commenting on whether or not the OP has to stay or leave, since that is ultimately up to her, I do wonder how the correlation between participating in a martial arts and being touched with a stick becomes objectionable. If you object to being tapped with a stick, how can you handle being kicked in the stomach or punched in the face?

Also, is it correction or punishment. I am a bit unclear here, I think the line was erased in the thread by various posters. 
Tap a leg here, an elbow there....certainly beats being accused of inappropriate hand contact!


Alas, the child objects, and that is where the problem is.


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2012)

Is there anyway to merge the two threads by the OP as they are on the same subject, it would save having to answer both of them.

A stick/cane is a good way to move children's limbs, feet etc but my thoughts are still that four years old is too young to be in a class that is for older children and adults, a four year old should be in a class designed for that age if you have to have them doing martial arts, I'd prefer not to, I like children to be older. However good the instructors are, however good the school I believe four is too young to try to learn formal martial arts.


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## miguksaram (Jul 30, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm afraid it has more to do with defending a culture with some on the board, than the actual practice itself. Not surprising, but it is a pity.



Defending a culture or defendinig ignorance of a culture, which is also a pity.  Understanding is key.  I agree with everyone who has said, that if she is not comfortable then by all means do not go there.  This does not make her a "wimpy parent", it makes her a parent that just wants her child to learn in an environment that he is comfortable in.  This also doesn't mean that the teach is bad either.  He has a specific style of teaching, it is a style that is based on how he was taught along with millions of other Koreans.  Now if you don't like that style fine, but to say he is a bad teacher without actually meeting him or training under him is wrong.  It's a pity you don't even have the understanding of the culture you seem to be so quickly to demise.


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Defending a culture or defendinig ignorance of a culture, which is also a pity. Understanding is key. I agree with everyone who has said, that if she is not comfortable then by all means do not go there. This does not make her a "wimpy parent", it makes her a parent that just wants her child to learn in an environment that he is comfortable in. This also doesn't mean that the teach is bad either. He has a specific style of teaching, it is a style that is based on how he was taught along with millions of other Koreans. Now if you don't like that style fine, but to say he is a bad teacher without actually meeting him or training under him is wrong. It's a pity you don't even have the understanding of the culture you seem to be so *quickly to demise.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> He killed it?


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## Steve (Jul 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> miguksaram said:
> 
> 
> > Defending a culture or defendinig ignorance of a culture, which is also a pity. Understanding is key. I agree with everyone who has said, that if she is not comfortable then by all means do not go there. This does not make her a "wimpy parent", it makes her a parent that just wants her child to learn in an environment that he is comfortable in. This also doesn't mean that the teach is bad either. He has a specific style of teaching, it is a style that is based on how he was taught along with millions of other Koreans. Now if you don't like that style fine, but to say he is a bad teacher without actually meeting him or training under him is wrong. It's a pity you don't even have the understanding of the culture you seem to be so *quickly to demise.*
> ...


Haha!  That made me snort!


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## miguksaram (Jul 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> He killed it?


DOH!   I meant to put 'dismiss'...HA!


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## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> DOH! I meant to put 'dismiss'...HA!



I love Freudian slips lol!


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 30, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I love Freudian slips lol!



Me too, they can sometimes be very revealing :uhyeah:

Jeremy, we'll just have to, once again, agree to disagree.


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## puunui (Jul 31, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I put this right up there with your buddy who needed a full year to recover from an injury his instructor caused but maintains it was a 'gift' he was given.



That was a gift, passed down through GM CHOI Yong Sul and TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei. Not many people were given such things, and when I first mentioned it, many of my juniors rushed out and begged to receive the same sort of training that I did. My juniors did that a lot when I spoke about techniques and training methods that they had never experienced or heard about. And as far as I know they are as happy as I am about it. I don't know how many korean students received that, but I believe that Yung Freda and I were the first Americans, and not many after that.


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## puunui (Jul 31, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I've been on the receiving end of physical and emotional abuse as a child.  It sucks and is something no child should ever go through on any level.



That was very revealing, and explains a lot....


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## Tez3 (Jul 31, 2012)

puunui said:


> That was very revealing, and explains a lot....




That's uncalled for.


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## puunui (Jul 31, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> That's uncalled for.



Then I should leave then, and this time never come back.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 31, 2012)

puunui said:


> That was very revealing, and explains a lot....





puunui said:


> Then I should leave then, and this time never come back.



I had hoped that during your sabatical from MT you might have learned to behave in a civilized manner. Apparently not.


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## dancingalone (Jul 31, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> That's uncalled for.



To be fair, KSD made a snide remark about puunui first.  

I would like to see both members stay and hope everyone will abide by the rules regardless of their agreement or disagreement on this or any other topic.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 31, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> To be fair, KSD made a snide remark about puunui first.



With respect, it was a factual remark to make a point in regards to the thread and not meant in any negative manner.  And I did not mention him by name or quote his remark(s).


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 31, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *Kong Soo Do*
> 
> 
> 
> I've been on the receiving end of physical and  emotional abuse as a child.  It sucks and is something no child should  ever go through on any level.





puunui said:


> That was very revealing, and explains a lot....



Although you meant this as another attack, I agree with you in that it does explain a lot.  It explains why I have a passion in protecting children from abusive adults.  It explains why I raise my own son in a manner that differs from my own childhood i.e. he feels safe, secure and loved in his home.  It explains why I determined long ago to better myself and my situation, first through serving my country and now as a public servant.  It explains my drive and not letting events beyond my control in my childhood effect my future.  It explains why two years ago I became the most and highest decorated member of my Bureau.  So I'll take it as a compliment, thank you.


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## dancingalone (Jul 31, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> With respect, it was a factual remark to make a point in regards to the thread and not meant in any negative manner.  And I did not mention him by name or quote his remark(s).



Let's call a spade a spade.  Given the context of the exchange you had with miguksaram here where you make the reference to puunui (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...or-my-almost-5-year-old?p=1507737#post1507737), it's very reasonable to read an intentional negative shading to what you wrote.  

I hope you can take this in the spirit in which it is offered and reflect on why I think you're the instigator here.  I've have had my disagreements over the years here with a bunch of people, puunui included, and I am just calling it like I see it.

Let's knock off the personal stuff.  That applies to everyone, me included.


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## rainesr (Jul 31, 2012)

Calliegirl said:


> Thank you, everyone! To clairify, yes, it is indeed his culture. Very nice man and good intentions, but I was told he was raised and learned Taekwondo with this stick. He calls it "chocolate" like his mom did and asks the kids "Do you want some chocolate"??. Again, the whacks do not hurt, but are totally meant to intimidate. I am embarassed to even write this as I am thinking "How did I ever justify this"? However, it seems to have ramped up. Today, they were running in a big circle to warm up. I was watching from my car (have a two year old) and could see my son grinning as he loves to run. Then, saw the master in the middle waving his stick and learning forward to "tap" a few. I was thinking how I would be scared in that environment. Again, he does not hurt, but it is a threat that would be scary to a little kid.
> 
> I am going off my insticts and pulling him. I just wanted to run this by some people who knew more about martial arts environments then me. In addition, I am pretty loyal and do like this master....just not the best fit for teaching my son. We just went to talk to another Takewondo place and feel it is a much better fit for us. I am very excited happy to change. My son's face lit up and he said he wanted to go there. So glad he does not want to quit, but just wants a change in environment. Thanks, again.



Our Korean Grand Master did this in Tang Soo Do and called it Korean Candy, I never heard of him using it on the children but adults were given a fair share of candy canes. All accounts suggest he was a very nice individual. 

~Rob


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 1, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Let's call a spade a spade.



Okay, let's do that.  Again, with respect intended.  My comment, as I stated was in direct connection to Jeremy's comment which had become part of the flow of the conversation back on page two, which is close to a week old.  I did not put a name to it, nor quote the individual.  And that individual was not, at the time a participant of the thread.  And very few people would have known to whom I was referring.

However, that individual chose to come into the thread, two pages after-the-fact, quote me directly and post an off-topic, snide remark.

I'll leave it at that.  

As far as the thread itself, it appears the child is going to switch to a different school.  I think that is a very wise decision and hope it works out much better for both the child and the parent(s).


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## dancingalone (Aug 1, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, let's do that.  Again, with respect intended.  My comment, as I stated was in direct connection to Jeremy's comment which had become part of the flow of the conversation back on page two, which is close to a week old.  I did not put a name to it, nor quote the individual.  And that individual was not, at the time a participant of the thread.  And very few people would have known to whom I was referring.
> 
> However, that individual chose to come into the thread, two pages after-the-fact, quote me directly and post an off-topic, snide remark.



This is my last comment on this.  

IMO, it doesn't matter that you didn't name him nor that you paraphrased his story rather than quoted it directly.  You used his personal anecdote as a quip against miguksaram and in so doing you also poked puunui, even if he wasn't participating on the thread at the time.

YOU drew him out by referencing him in the first place.  It shouldn't be surprising that he responded.  

I get that you don't get along.  So just leave him alone.  Perhaps he will reciprocate.  In any case, you were the one that started it here, so just drop it please.

I look forward to more pleasant discussions with everyone on another thread.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 1, 2012)

We'll simply have to agree to disagree.


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## granfire (Aug 1, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> We'll simply have to agree to disagree.



as long as you agree on that.


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## jks9199 (Aug 1, 2012)

Folks, let's get back on topic.   If you're concerned about a post, use the RTM button.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## granfire (Aug 1, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Folks, let's get back on topic.   If you're concerned about a post, use the RTM button.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2



I agree.


Wait, what?


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## andyjeffries (Aug 1, 2012)

Markku P said:


> I agree with this. I personally would not allow my kids to train there. Using the stick is a red flag in any circumstances.



Markku, I'm not replying to your comment to single you out - a lot of people have said how using a stick in any way is wrong, others replying that it's part of Korean culture.  I happened to just be reading a book on Korean sayings and culture and wanted to post a snippet of the book (any typos below I'm sure are mine, from my rapid re-typing of a large piece of text).  Yours was one of many comments the section is relevant to, not the only one, but the first one I found.

*From:* Looking for a Mr Kim in Seoul
_Teachers of old were sterm and unforgiving.  Confucian ideas stressed that the "king, teacher and father are one and the same - &#44400;&#49324;&#48512;&#51068;&#52404;".  In old schools called "Houses of Letters &#49436;&#45817;"...students knelt before the teacher and read their textbooks on the floor.  Boys who failed to memorize their poems and textbooks were summoned and told to roll up their trouser legs.  The teacher's bamboo stick whistled through the air and landed on trembling calves.  Other boys, waiting their turn, winced at every blow.  Hence the expression "If you have to be whipped, it's best to be whipped first - &#47588;&#46020; &#47676;&#51200; &#47582;&#45716; &#44172; &#45227;&#45796;".

Until the 1990s, the hickory was a common means of establishing classroom order.  Teachers hit students if they were late, had a runny nose, pushed and shoved in line, or couldn't add or subtract.

"Picking up the educational rod &#44368; &#54200; &#51105;&#45796;" is the Korean expression for becoming a teacher.  The paddle is euphemistically referred to as the "rod of love".

All Korean men remember a punishment called "Wonsan Bombardment &#50896;&#49328;&#54533;&#44201;". The victim puts his head on the ground and then raised his hips, forming an arch with his body.  Only his head and two feet touched the ground.  His hands were locked behind his back.  With the student poised in this painful position, a teacher sometimes whacked his buttocks with a rod.  It was a common punishment in the South Korean military as well.

The name comes from heavy U.S. aerial attacks on Wonsan, a key beachhead on North Korea's east coast, during the Korean War.  The student's head on the ground, with two spread legs, was supposed to resemble a U.S. plane nose-diving toward Wonsan.

Parents and children occasionally report bruises, burst eardrums and other injuries inflicted by teachers.  The Education Ministry allows teachers to use corporal punishment only when it is "inevitable for educational purposes". It bans teachers from beating students with broom sticks, slippers, belts, rolled-up newspapers or attendance books.

Amid parental complains, corporal punishment is disappearing from schools.  Yet many parents pick up the hickory occasionally to keep kids in line at home.

_Anyway, I thought that might be of interest to some who are reading here and wondering about how normal hitting people/children with a stick is in Korean culture.


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## Markku P (Aug 1, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Anyway, I thought that might be of interest to some who are reading here and wondering about how normal hitting people/children with a stick is in Korean culture.



Well, it was pretty normal in my country too, I think they stopped hitting in the schools in -60 (?)

/Markku P.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 1, 2012)

As I haven't posted an opinion yet, I thought I'd also do so now.

Given that the man is from an older generation and the military, given the cultural information I retyped in my post a moment ago, I'm not surprised he picks up a stick as a teaching aid.

From the sound of the OP's messages, the teacher is not violent with it but uses it to tap students. He also doesn't seem use it to intimidate/threaten (in a nasty way) children.  Out of interest, for those who object, would you object if he used a double paddle in the same way?

If the OP doesn't feel comfortable with it, then absolutely take your child elsewhere.  Young children of that age need a different class type to older children (I personally teach 3-6 years olds in one class, 7-13 in another and 14+ in another).

However, if it was me I wouldn't be worried.  Then again, I'm not averse to misbehaving children being smacked by their own parents.  I have only used it as a last resort and never hard enough to cause injury.  I would not tolerate a teacher (martial arts or otherwise) hitting my child, but a tap with a training aid (be it a stick, paddle or something similar) that doesn't hurt them is perfectly fine.  I don't personally use them, but I'm not against it if others do.

If you have your students trained by one of the old guard, guys that learn in a different time and may not have updated their teaching methods, then I would expect your child to learn in a different way to one of the younger/western teachers.

Unlike a lot of other posters, I have no issue with your child learning at 4.5 years old; I have students younger than that.  I treat them differently to the older age group (much more tolerant of mistakes, more shouting when kicking, etc).


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## chrispillertkd (Aug 1, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> _Amid parental complains, corporal punishment is disappearing from schools. Yet many parents pick up the hickory occasionally to keep kids in line at home._



All the other things aside, I see no contradiction here. I have spanked my kids on rare occasions but would have a serious problem if someone else, including a teacher, did the same to my children. They don't know when I would use corporal punishment, why I would do so, or how often. And, frankly, it's not their call. 

While in theory I have no problem with an instructor carry a bamboo cane to "tap" an arm or leg to get it into position,  if it was actually used to discipline children I'd have a problem. Additionally, if a child is uncomfortable in a school even if it's not used for punishment then you should consider looking for a new school that's a better fit.

Pax,

Chris


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## granfire (Aug 1, 2012)

> Unlike a lot of other posters, I have no issue with your child learning  at 4.5 years old; I have students younger than that.  I treat them  differently to the older age group (much more tolerant of mistakes, more  shouting when kicking, etc).



I did not see anybody say it was not ok for a young kid to learn, just that the class structure needs to reflect the age of the students

i have taught the class full of 3-6 year olds as well as the regular beginner class for kids, 6 through 14....
While i could see having a stick with the older kids (as pointer) as beneficial, the little ones seldom need that kind of accurate technique. 

(now, I did thoroughly enjoy whomping the kids in sparring class with a blocker! One in each hand if possible! )


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## andyjeffries (Aug 1, 2012)

granfire said:


> I did not see anybody say it was not ok for a young kid to learn, just that the class structure needs to reflect the age of the students



An example:



			
				manny said:
			
		

> I feel 4-7 years old must not take martial arts class, they are too little to comprehend, etc,etc, please don't crucifix me I juts don't like to teach small children, I think martial art classes are good for childrem from 8 years and ahead.


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## granfire (Aug 1, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> An example:



I stand corrected.


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## seasoned (Aug 2, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> To be fair, KSD made a snide remark about puunui first.



This (snide remark)




puunui said:


> That was very revealing, and explains a lot....



Did not warrant what was said above.

We are adults here and should act accordingly. We are but guests here on this site and these threads, and no different then, a guest at someones home. The only rights we have within these posts, are the rights to treat everyone with respect.


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## miguksaram (Aug 2, 2012)

seasoned said:


> This (snide remark)
> 
> Did not warrant what was said above.



So are you saying it warranted a less harsher snide remark?  That is like saying the guy slapped me so I should have just slapped him back instead of punching him.  The point being made was that KSD threw a jab and the result was that he got jabbed back.  Regardless of if what was said back was harsher than what was orginally said, the original remark should not have been made in the first place. 



> We are adults here and should act accordingly. We are but guests here on this site and these threads, and no different then, a guest at someones home. The only rights we have within these posts, are the rights to treat everyone with respect.


Agreed.


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## jks9199 (Aug 2, 2012)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please return to the original topic. 

Jks9199
Assistant Administrator 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## chrispillertkd (Aug 2, 2012)

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Pax,

Chris


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## seasoned (Aug 2, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> So are you saying it warranted a less harsher snide remark?  That is like saying the guy slapped me so I should have just slapped him back instead of punching him.  The point being made was that KSD threw a jab and the result was that he got jabbed back.  Regardless of if what was said back was harsher than what was orginally said, the original remark should not have been made in the first place.
> 
> 
> Agreed.


Most know exactly what I meant. Lets get past the play on words and get on with it. 
My recommendation would be to heed the below directive. 

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please return to the original topic. 

Jks9199
Assistant Administrator


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## granfire (Aug 2, 2012)

granfire said:


> I stand corrected.



HOWEVER...I am assuming that that comes from a tradition of not offering classes for really young kids, but only 'real' classes.





(the Topic, see, I remembered!)


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## Metal (Aug 3, 2012)

So that Taekwondo master doesn't use his stick to hurt the kids and in general is a nice person and would never hurt any kids anyway?

It's just that your kid gets intimidated by the presence of a stick and the way the master uses it to tap body/limbs in order to correct technique?

Then you should seriously comsider if it may be better if your kid would start with toddler gymnastics instead of TKD.


In one of the clubs I train at even the 12 to 16 year olds are still scared when it comes to sparring. ;-)
They're not just afraid of being hit, but they're also afraid of hitting me and then being hit in return. I always tell and show them that they can trust me and that I won't hurt them. For example when it's possible to do a headshot I show them that they would have been hit in a match. I also let them go full force when the attack or counter so that they can learn how to doi it in real matches, but they don't need to expect revenge in case they hit me.

Your kid is probably too young to tell that there's no need to be afraid.


Btw, especially when training with kids a stick is the best way to correct stances and technique. Otherwise the instructur needs to kneel or bend down all the time. ;-)


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## Archtkd (Aug 3, 2012)

Calliegirl said:


> Hi, there!
> 
> . I am 100% confident he would NEVER hurt a child. He can be waving it and, then, hug a child the next minute. However, he does use it to intimidate/scare a child into good behavior if they are not focusing (remember, my child is 4 1/2). More alarming to me, is he does wack/hit/pat (whatever you want to call it) on their back, bottom of their feet, bottom, etc. even when they just do something not right or if he feels they are not focusing enough to do it right. It is not enough to hurt, but to get their attention. I see my son's eyes get bugged out and he is afaid of it. We don't do any kind of spanking or corporal punishment so this is pretty new to him. In the car the other day, he told me that "if Master ever slaps him again, he will want to walk out and never take TKD again". This alarms me. First of all, whether true or not, his 4 year old perception is that he slaps him. Second, he is learning you get your way through intimidation. Third, I don't want him to want to quit TKD.
> 
> ...



Here&#8217;s my two cents worth on this issue. It all depends on how long and why you want your young son to practice taekwondo. If your instincts tell you that the man in question is the wrong teacher for your son, then by all means pull him out, but bear these things in mind: sooner rather than later, your son will be introduced to some lessons about mental and physical pain. Those hard lessons are least likely to come from the old man with the stick. The teaching will come &#8211;  probably out of the blue, unfiltered and in ways you can&#8217;t protect him &#8211; from other boys or girls his age.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Here&#8217;s my two cents worth on this issue. It all depends on how long and why you want your young son to practice taekwondo. If your instincts tell you that the man in question is the wrong teacher for your son, then by all means pull him out, but bear these things in mind: sooner rather than later, your son will be introduced to some lessons about mental and physical pain. Those hard lessons are least likely to come from the old man with the stick. The teaching will come &#8211; probably out of the blue, unfiltered and in ways you can&#8217;t protect him &#8211; from other boys or girls his age.



True enough of course BUT I think four years old, it might be _nearly_ five but the child is still very, very young for proper martial arts.


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