# Looking for a school...



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 3, 2001)

In WNY that teaches Iaido and or Kenjitsu (not Kendo)

Thanks!


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## Cthulhu (Sep 3, 2001)

This is probably HIDEOUSLY out of the way, but how close/far are you to the University of Guelph in Canada? They have a LOT of Japanese sword art activities, including forging workshops.  I think they have a Web site you can search for...used to have it bookmarked, but I don't know what happened to it.

Cthulhu


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## Cthulhu (Sep 13, 2001)

Also, you have to watch it with some kenjutsu schools.  For instance, it is my understanding that no one currently in the U.S. is authorized to teach Katori Shinto Ryu kenjutsu, though there are a few people claiming to teach it.  

The Katori Shinto Ryu is recognized by the Japanese government as the oldest verifiable martial art ryu in the country, with written proof of its existence going back some 600 years. 

As many of you may know, the traditional Japanese bujutsu don't have a kyu/dan ranking system.  Certificates or scrolls of achievement are used instead.  An okuden certificate, which basically states one has learned the basics, has only been given to one westerner that I know of, somewhere in Spain, I believe.  I don't know of any living westerner to have earned a menkyo-kaiden, which is akin to a certificate of mastery.  Donn F. Draeger studied and taught the Katori Shinto Ryu, so he may have earned his menkyo.  However, he's been dead for some time.

Unfortunately, authentic kenjutsu is hard to find in North America, though kendo and iaido schools abound.  If you find a legitimate kenjutsu instructor, please share the info with us!

Cthulhu


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## Keil Randor (Oct 7, 2001)

Looks like WNY is sorely lacking in the Japanese blade arts. I tried a post on another forum, and the person refered me to a Kenpo school.  Ok, I know they all sound alike, but still....


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## arnisador (Oct 18, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *In WNY that teaches Iaido and or Kenjitsu (not Kendo)*



I studied iaido in Syracuse for a few years, making brown belt. I really enjoyed it. I'm taking Tai Chi now and have finished 42 step sword (with much room for improvement left, of course) and am working on 13 step sword, but while I enjoy it it's not as fun as iaido was. I'd enjoy studying iado again but instructors are rare; batto-jutsu is offered an hour away but nothing closer that I know of.

I enjoy the flexibility of arnis techniques--one motion works for so many different weapons, including empty hand--but I also enjoy the focus and art of iaido, specific to the use of just that weapon (and perhaps the jo). It requires even more precision than a karate kata. It's aesthetically pleasing but you can also really feel the power in the techniques.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 18, 2001)

I found a school just over the bridges in Canada in St. Cat. thats supposed to teach Iaido, but I haven't had a chance to check them out yet.  I've heard its closer to "combat" than Kendo, but is also supposed to be very medatative.  I've got a ton of books, most highly recomended, but you can only learn so much from a book, before you get lost.  IMO.

I looked at the Tai Chi sword sets briefly.  I think they are very aestetically pleasing, but sadly, I have too much fire in me to do them justice at this time.  

I'm currently learning some basics of Fillipino sword.  So far, I'm at step one....with my body copmplaining about how foriegn the movements are.    Course, it complains alot.


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## arnisador (Oct 19, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I found a school just over the bridges in Canada in St. Cat. thats supposed to teach Iaido, but I haven't had a chance to check them out yet. *



There are some in Toronto, I believe. By the way, are you familiar with The Iaido Journal:
http://EJMAS.com/tin/tinframe.htm
See also, more generally:
http://EJMAS.com/
for other arts.


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## Icepick (Oct 29, 2001)

Kaith -

The school where I do BJJ is an Isshin Ryu place, but the instructor recently offered a month long short course in Iaido.  Don't know his qualifications or anything like that, but you could ask him.  Matt Dorsey:  www.rochesterkarate.com


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 31, 2001)

COOL!  

Will check it out.  Much thanks!

:asian:


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## Jay Bell (Nov 12, 2001)

> An okuden certificate, which basically states one has learned the basics, has only been given to one westerner that I know of, somewhere in Spain, I believe.



Shoden Menkyo is typically basics.  Okuden Menkyo is the higher teachings (normally before Menkyo and Menkyo Kaiden level).

Phil Relnick, from Seattle, has a Kyoshi Menkyo in Katori Shinto ryu.  For further information about Relnick sensei, click here

Take care,

Jay


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## arnisador (Nov 12, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *
> 
> Shoden Menkyo is typically basics.  Okuden Menkyo is the higher teachings (normally before Menkyo and Menkyo Kaiden level).
> *



Can someone suggest a site or other reference with more information on these licenses? I know of them but not much about them, and would be curious to see a list of the typical licenses and what level of mastery they represent.


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## arnisador (Nov 12, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Keil Randor _
> *Looks like WNY is sorely lacking in the Japanese blade arts. I tried a post on another forum, and the person refered me to a Kenpo school.  Ok, I know they all sound alike, but still.... *



I came across a site today that uses "kenpo" for what most would call kenjutsu:
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html
Follow the link for "The list of techniques" then "Kenpo".

Don't click on the link for "Secret Techniques" as you are not worthy.


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## Jay Bell (Nov 12, 2001)

To be honest, it's different for each school.  

In Koto ryu, you have Shoden Gata, Chuden Kata, Okuden Gata and Hekito Gata.  In Gyokko ryu you have Ten Ryaku no Maki, Chi Ryaku no Maki, Jin Ryaku no Maki and Hikaku no Gata.

So basically each tradition has it's own layout.  Some have more levels then others.  Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu only has three levels.

Each level has it's own ideas and concepts to be studied.  Once the student has completed a level with proficiancy (in theory), they are given a Menkyo (certificate).  When all levels have been completed, the deshi receives Menkyo Kaiden (certificate of full transmission).


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## Jay Bell (Nov 12, 2001)

> I came across a site today that uses "kenpo" for what most would call kenjutsu:
> http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html
> Follow the link for "The list of techniques" then "Kenpo".



hehe..That is Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, a very traditional Jujutsu school.  

Some techniques in koryu schools are set only to be taught to Menkyo level deshi/Shihan.


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## arnisador (Nov 12, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> *Each level has it's own ideas and concepts to be studied.  Once the student has completed a level with proficiancy (in theory), they are given a Menkyo (certificate).  When all levels have been completed, the deshi receives Menkyo Kaiden (certificate of full transmission). *



Thanks Jay, this is interesting and educational for me. Is a license to teach typically separate from, or included in, these certificates? Are special titles such as kyoshi also used? And, I have seen occasionally something like "so-and-so has a menkyo such-and-such in this ryu and a 7th dan rank from the All-Japan Jodo Federation"; is the dan ranking typically derived from the certificate and in the same art or is it a separate rank in a different art?


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## Jay Bell (Nov 12, 2001)

That's somewhat of a tricky question, because that too depends on the school.  Within the Bujinkan for example, we use the kyu/dan grading system.  Once the deshi has received Judan, then they receive Mokuroku Menkyo from that point on.

Judan Kugyo Happo Biken (15th Dan generically) receive Menkyo Kaiden.

Some schools still have titles that go along with grades as well.  At Godan in the Bujinkan, one can receive the title of Shidoshi, which means they are a fully licensed teacher.

Other schools use a combination of Kyu/Dan grading and Mokuroku.  If you look at the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho website above, they combine kyu/dan with the menkyo grading and titles.
Sandan is Renshi, Yondan is Kyoshi, Godan is Hanshi and so on.


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## higuma (Nov 22, 2001)

I have to agree with Jay... again.  Ranking and titles are not standard from art to art.

One other thing to keep in mind though, the kyu/dan ranks and titles such as shidoshi, renshi, kyoshi, hanshi, shihan, ad nauseum are relatively new developments.  The kyu/dan system was originally a product of judo rankings for competition and gained acceptance kind of across the board as an easy "measuring stick" for purposes of students to compare themselves to others.

If on the other hand, one is studying a truely "traditional" japanese martial art, they will likely adhere to the various menkyo levels and what ever teaching credentials those happen to include.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 23, 2001)

I tried to post this earlier but the board puked on me.  Here I go again...

This is from Richard Kim's The Weaponless Warriors.  This system was adopted by the Federation of All Japan Karate-Do Organizations (FAJKO) in 1971.  I'll start from shodan and go up in rank.

rank: shodan (at least 3 years of practice)
age: under 35
title: no formal title

rank: nidan (over 1 year after shodan)
age: under 35
title: no formal title

rank: sandan (over 2 years after nidan)
age: under 35
title: no formal title

rank: yodan (over 3 years afer sandan)
age: under 35
title: renshi (over 2 years after godan; 35 years or older)

rank: godan (over 3 years after yodan)
age: under 35
title: renshi (over 2 years after godan; 35 years or older)

rank: rokudan (over 5 years after godan)
age: 35 or over
title: renshi (over 2 years after godan; 35 years or older)

rank: shichidan (over 7 years after rokudan)
age: 42 or over
title: kyoshi (over 10 years after renshi; 40 years or older)

rank: hachidan (over 8 years after shichidan)
age: 50 or over
title: kyoshi (over 10 years after renshi; 40 years or older)

rank: kudan (10 years avter hachidan)
age: 60 or over
title: hanshi (over 15 years after kyoshi; 55 years or older)

rank: judan (over 10 years avter kudan)
age: 70 or over
title: hanshi (over 15 years after kyoshi; 55 years or older)

The book also mentions that titles were not awarded merely for rank, age, or 'time served', but were awarded for 'exceptional achievement and outstanding character'.

I don't know if these are still used as 'guidelines', but I thought I'd pop it on here to share.

Personally, I don't find much use for the titles.  It seems to me that after a certain age, or rank, or amount of time in the organization, titles and rank advancement become almost political issues.

Also, I think the 'time served' guidelines could be misinterpreted, or worse, abused, by unscrupulous individuals who would use their time since earning their shodan as a basis for awarding themselves more rank.

Again, somebody brought up titles and the kyu/dan ranking system, so I thought I'd toss this on here.  Don't know if this system is still valid.

Cthulhu


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## LeatheJ1 (Dec 6, 2001)

http://rimartialarts.com

Correspondence course in Japanese Swordmanship. Definitely worth a look.


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## warder (Jan 26, 2002)

There is an akido school that i use to train at in syracuse that offers classes in iado. I personaly never participated or watched a class, so i cant comment on the quality of the training. the school is Akido of Central New York.  here is there web page
http://home.twcny.rr.com/aikidocny/


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## arnisador (Jan 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by warder _
> *Akido of Central New York.*



I trained with them for a brief period in the early 80s. Great people, great attitude. We never did any weapons work in the several months I worked with them.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 27, 2002)

too far.  Bugger all, its a PITA!  Got a Kendo school, but I was looking for something less "sporting" and more "combat".

Sigh.  

Note to self - Win Lotto.  Travel world training with leading masters.

2nd note to self - do not pinch.


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## arnisador (Jan 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Got a Kendo school, but I was looking for something less "sporting" and more "combat".*



Bear in mind that most modern iaido schools emphasize the "mongrel" seitai iaido and very much emphasize character development over effective swordplay. The fighting techniques have been modified with the _do_ nature of the art firmly in mind. There are exceptions of course but by and large it isn't combat-effective iaido anymore.


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## arnisador (Dec 19, 2002)

http://www.netsword.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi


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## SPQR (May 3, 2004)

Any iaido schools in Chicago?


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## FastEd (May 7, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Bear in mind that most modern iaido schools emphasize the "mongrel" seitai iaido and very much emphasize character development over effective swordplay. The fighting techniques have been modified with the _do_ nature of the art firmly in mind. There are exceptions of course but by and large it isn't combat-effective iaido anymore.



I don't mean to be offensive, but I find this characterization a little  ignorant.  While I usually don't have a problem with non iai people (my assumption, please correct me if I am wrong) commenting on iai, your opinions go to far.  So I'd like to enquire about your ability to make these comments.

-Have your ever seen "seitei" (not "seitai") iai?  
-Do you know where it comes from? And which organization practices the style?
-How have the techniques been modified with the "do" nature in mind?
-How do you define the "combat-effectiveness" of an art 400 years old?

If you don't know, or can't explain your answers to these questions, you have no business discussing iai.  Just as I would not dream of commenting on Arnis.  If you can answer, then I'd be happy to have a good discussion about your opinions in another thread. 

As to the matter at hand, there are no simple answers, go check out the schools that have been mentioned here.  If you like what they are doing stick with them.  A search on E-budo.com, korybooks.com, EJAMS.com will provide you with plenty of answers.


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## Charles Mahan (May 10, 2004)

There are schools in the Chicago region.  I suggest you do a search of the archives at http://www.e-budo.com Particularly in the Sword Arts forum.  If that doesn't work out, post in the Sword Arts forum.  Be sure to sign your real name there.  It's a forum rule.


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