# Personal Opinion - most efficient knife art/training?



## dok (Sep 24, 2006)

Hello. I'm brand new here, though I've been a lurker for a while, gleanin info here and there.  I'm currently looking to train in knife work and was wondering if I could get suggestions on peoples preferred art (I'm not looking for 'the best' - but personal preference, with a bias towards efficiency over style)

Silat (not sure exactly what the name is... the self defence oriented one/style (hanafi?) - if someone could enlighten me further?

Sayoc Kali?

hock hodgen's curriculum?  - how are his instructors.  there's one in my area, but i.e. are they certified by him - or are they ppl who have watched his videos and bought a certificate?  


Preferably, I'd like something I could attend once or twice a week (my time is, unfortunately, limited).  drill at home, and learn relatively quickly?

my thanks for any assistance- peace!


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## arnisador (Sep 24, 2006)

Do you mean knife-to-knife sparring, or defense against the knife, or offensive use of the knife?

As a rule, Filipino and Indonesian arts are a good choice for this, and Sayoc Kali is indeed one of the arts better known for the knife. There are many other traditions, including European and South American. South african knife fighting (e.g. Piper) is getting attention these days (for example, on Eskrima Digest).


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## dok (Sep 24, 2006)

my apologies - I definitely should have clarified

my original aim was to find a good system for knife use - knife use in self defence/knife sparring (in the odd situation where that could happen).  I have carried a knife for the past 4 years or so... and it has occurred to me (at long last) that I really should know what I'm doing should I ever (god forbid) have to pull it.  

but knife defence would also be handy to learn, although I have no illusions about going unarmed against a knife wielding opponent.

thanks for the feedback - never heard of piper, actually, will read up on it.


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## dok (Sep 24, 2006)

after a quick readup - the piper system seems like its a silat derivative combined with zulu combat, now a "criminal" street fighting system (at least according to wikipedia).

reading up on silat i came across AMOK! (also apparently out of south africa) - does anyone have any experience with this system?


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## arnisador (Sep 24, 2006)

Most FMAs and Indonesian weapon systems will give you what you want then, I'd think.

I've heard of AMOK! and read a bit about it but have no personal experience with it.


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## dok (Sep 24, 2006)

thanks for the assistance 

A question - that I hope isnt inappropriate : I'm not looking for a quick-fix solution (well, maybe I am), but I do want something that I will - with reasonable, diligent training - be able to apply as I learn it (i.e. 15 years is not acceptable).  I realize FMA's / indonesian / malaysian arts are not all the same, but is there a general ballpark-timetable to a) decent proficiency and b) mastery ?


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## Cruentus (Sep 24, 2006)

A lot of what to train is has more to do with the level of instruction available rather then stylistic preferences. Maybe if you told us what area your from, people might know good people in your area for different knife disciplines.


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## arnisador (Sep 24, 2006)

You can pick up basic knife fighting skills much more quickly than you'd think. It's that last 10% that takes a long time to master!

I agree that it would help to know what's available in your area.


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## dok (Sep 24, 2006)

ahh sorry, forgot to mention that too - I'm in the DC metropolitan area, thus far I really dont know much about whats available around here.


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## Carol (Sep 24, 2006)

My instructor is a 5th degree Black Belt in AMOK and a certfied instructor of Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Kali.  

AMOK focuses on knives - training blades and live blades.  

DTS Kali has a heavy weapons focus but the weapons could be sticks, sticks used in the place of bladed weapons, or bladed weapons (of many types.

Try them both out if you can.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 24, 2006)

I'll preface this by saying that the only experience I have with the FMA's was a seminar taught by Datu Kelly Worden (excellent material BTW).  That being the case, I can't really comment on the effectiveness or efficiency of those systems.  

For easy to learn, yet practical technique I really like the material from _Reverse Edge methods_ I and II from Shivworks.  The method is based on Pekiti Tirsia Kali and is particulary effective with the smaller fixed-blades and folders to which most of us are restricted by law.  It's not pretty or "cool looking" like some of the more traditional methods (actually it's pretty brutal) so if you're looking for something with "flash" you might not like it.  However, it's very easy to learn because it was put together with the idea of being easy to integrate with your empty-hand or impact-weapon skills.


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## Cruentus (Sep 25, 2006)

You've got a lot of options out there.

******** is an FMA guy and LE trainer and works with Collegues of mine, and he is in Gainesville, VA. Don't know how close that is to you.

There is a JKD guy last name Makeska who might be worth checking out.

You also have some tactical/shooting places that may be of use for knife instructors, or at least getting you in touch with someone: Blackheart Intl and Storm Mountain in West VA. I think that there is an actual NRA headquarters in D.C.. 

I would look through the tactical circles for something comprehensive and geared towards self-defense and use of force issues regarding the knife; then maybe seek out a martial art if you enjoy it and want to continue training.

As to the places and names above; I have never been or trained with these people; so I hope someone from the area can make better suggestions. 

Paul


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## R. Derderian (Sep 25, 2006)

hock hodgen's curriculum? - how are his instructors. there's one in my area, but i.e. are they certified by him - or are they ppl who have watched his videos and bought a certificate? <<<<<
Do you mean Hock Hochheim??? If so, his curriculum is bare bones and very easy to process. It is also very effective. Hock is a great guy. As to the instructors in your area, just go and check them out. You can also go to Hock's website and just buy a DVD or something to start the process going. 
Good luck,
Raffi Derderian


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## dok (Sep 25, 2006)

Carol - thanks for respondin  - I have a couple questions - there's an AMOK "tribe" here in the district.  Are all tribes instructional?  Is there a fee beyond the membership fee in AMOK?  

Reason i ask is that the tribe leader here isnt listed as an 'instructor' but a 'specialist' (in addition his amok page has him listed as bein in the US secret service).  

kenpotex - I'll definitely check out shivworks - simple yet effective is definitely what I'm looking for.  Flash is certainly nice, but I'd only wish that after I had a fair level of proficiency with the blade.  Sounds like I should also look into pekiti tirsia kali (there are so many styles of kali that I have a tough time making sense of them all). 

Tulisan - thankye kindly!  Gainesville is unfort a little far for me, but I'll check out Makeska and the NRA headquarters to see if they have any leads.  The tactical/self defense /use of force approach also sounds like what I'd want to get familiar with - but I just wasnt sure how to find a reputable and decent instructor.  

Derderian - yes, heh, i did in fact mean hock hochheim.  By the time I realized my monumental typo the edit button was long gone.  I've heard good things about his curriculum, and as I mentioned there is one instructor here in DC (though its unclear whether or not he's an instructor in the knife-specific curriculum).

I will certainly be looking into DVD's, but I wished to start with an actual instructor as I've always viewed fundamentals as bein important (in all things), and fundamental bad habits bein some of the hardest to break.  

thanks to all for the feedback, much appreciated!


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## Cruentus (Sep 25, 2006)

Even if gainesville is too far for regular training (for example), don't be afraid too get in contact with these people for the potential of seminar training. Driving a few hours is nothing if it is going to a good seminar where you train for 6 hours or an entire weekend.

Seminars are a good way to get started before you decide how to go about regular training, or a good way to compliment what you are already training.


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## dok (Sep 25, 2006)

That's sound advice - I've never attended such a seminar so it didnt even really enter my mind.  Gonna expand my search a little


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