# wooden dummy



## naneek (Apr 9, 2010)

i am in the process of building a wooden dummy and am about a third of the way through, just thought i would ask for some simple things i could practice on it - not the form as i am not ready for that, just a beginner.


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## bully (Apr 9, 2010)

Anything really. I'm not that good and I just do what I can. 

I am being taught the form at the moment, I can do the first 24 moves, which to be fair isn't that advanced. The guy showing me says its all about placing energy. The other thing is to flow around the dummy and not to hit it and make lots of noise. I find this difficult, but slowly I am learning.

The hardest thing is getting around that big bloody leg someone put there It certainly makes me mindful of my footwork. Tripped a few times as I was concentrating on my hands too much, beaten by a dummy!!

I just try and move around it using the main tools we are taught in SLT. Pretty sure someone good will be along to give us some drills in a bit.

Any pictures of your dummy in progress??


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## naneek (Apr 9, 2010)

i will try to post some pics but dont hold your breath as i am useless at doing things using a computer will try to get the missus to help me. thanks for the advice bully on what to do . 

so far i have drilled the arm holes and made two arms with one arm left to make. bit puzzled on the angle i need to drill the leg hole at and still considering leg construction dont want to make it too weak at the joint representing the knee. also have not yet started on the stand will have to look at some pics and figure it out.


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## CRCAVirginia (Apr 9, 2010)

There are many drills and techniques you can do without knowing the Dummy Form. Almost all our drills can be done on the Dummy. For example: 5 Star Blocking Drill, Yut Fook Yee (one hand bridges two) The first one is Pock, Tan Da Pock. Lop, Jing Jyeung, Kuen Siu Kuen (fist parries fist) Slow Attacks . Even Lop Sau can be trained on the dummy. My Sifu has two DVD's with all of the above and more called Advanced Wooden Dummy Drills. 



> I can do the first 24 moves, which to be fair isn't that advanced.


 
By the way my Sifu considers the first 20 movements of the Dummy Form the most important.


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## naneek (Apr 10, 2010)

thanks for the info:ultracool, i will check if that dvd is available in New Zealand.


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## mook jong man (Apr 10, 2010)

naneek said:


> i am in the process of building a wooden dummy and am about a third of the way through, just thought i would ask for some simple things i could practice on it - not the form as i am not ready for that, just a beginner.


 

You can practice raising your guard between the top arms .
Stand to the side of one of the arms and practice latching the arm down as you pivot with a low palm strike down into the body of the dummy.
Parry one of the arms as you step in and punch down low
Place the insides of your forearms against the outsides of the dummys top arms , using the move from SLT directly after the double cutdown Jut sau If I remember correctly. Practice jerking the arms down using elbow force , follow with double palm strike
Go to either side of the dummy and practice pivoting with a Tan sau to the outside of the top arm as you palm strike low.
Practice kicking combinations either moving around or stationary , using the same leg to kick to the body of the dummy and straight down to its leg or vice versa.
Face dummy square on and practice continuously parrying inside of each of the top arms.
You can practice stepping around the dummy with out any hand work , but make sure you get someone to show you the proper footwork.
Pivot and do the Bong Sau's from Chum Kiu on the dummy arms , making sure not to clash with the arms of the dummy , in fact any deflections you do on the dummy make sure there is no clashing , spread the impact over the forearm don't take it on one spot.
That should keep you busy for a little while.


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## naneek (Apr 11, 2010)

thanks mjm very useful advice as usual


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## melry88 (Apr 12, 2010)

Congrats on building your own dummy.  May I ask which plans you are using to do this?

Also remember any technique you have can be done on the dummy.  A lot of your two man drills can also be done for example "Triangle Palms".  

The dummy is really not considered a separate form, but more of a choreographed follow of Wing Chun techniques.  The dummy should be used to pressure test your structure and knowledge of the individuals techniques.  Remember though that the dummy is a rigged partner and will not obviously respond as a normal person would .

In my understanding originally all of the techniques you see practiced on the dummy were to be also seen in the empty hand forms.  Now not to start a huge debate, but if you look through some of the current Wing Chun empty hands forms you will be missing some techniques that are used in on the dummy.  From my understanding this is because over the years the forms have evolved to make them a little simpler, but still contain the meat of the system.

I hope this helps and most of all have fun learning.


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## geezer (Apr 12, 2010)

melry88 said:


> The dummy is really not considered a separate form, but more of a choreographed follow of Wing Chun techniques...
> 
> In my understanding originally all of the techniques you see practiced on the dummy were to be also seen in the empty hand forms...


 
I can't really agree with either statement. The dummy set is every bit as much a form as the other sets, and it certainly contains techniques not previously introduced. Heck, just look at the leg techniques. You don't see those anywhere else. But then again each of our "lineages" views things differently.

Anyway, to get back to the OP, a useful thing in developing drills to practice on the dummy is just to remember that it is nothing more than a stand-in for an opponent. It presents you with a leg and _two arms_ to work against. Yes, two arms, just like a human opponent. You choose either the two upper arms, or one high and one low. You never work three arms at a time. When you realize that, it's a very logical and direct piece of training equipment. Good luck with your training!


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## melry88 (Apr 12, 2010)

Geezer that is cool if you disagree.  From what I have seen and been taught is that these techniques were originally in the empty hand forms the mainland lines also have those techniques in their forms.  

I have witnessed the trickle down watering effect on the system directly with in my own lineage.  What happens after a couple of generations is that the details become lost and the mentality becomes that the system does not contain this or that.

For anyone who has gone through all of the movements of the dummy why not question where these techniques are in the empty hand forms?  Also if you have access to try to find someone who has good footage of the mainland lines see how they approach dummy training.  

I would bet what you see in their dummy will reflect their empty hand training.


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## geezer (Apr 12, 2010)

melry88 said:


> I have witnessed the trickle down watering effect on the system directly with in my own lineage. What happens after a couple of generations is that the details become lost and the mentality becomes that the system does not contain this or that.


 
I'm not sure about the "trickle-down effect". Those words bring to mind the unfortunate economic policies of George H. W. Bush! Now if you are talking about the tendencies to reduce rather than expand the range of WC techniques as the generations pass, I hear what you are saying. I think that might be a great topic to start a new thread on. --Steve


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 19, 2010)

melry88 said:


> Geezer that is cool if you disagree. From what I have seen and been taught is that these techniques were originally in the empty hand forms the mainland lines also have those techniques in their forms.
> 
> I have witnessed the trickle down watering effect on the system directly with in my own lineage. What happens after a couple of generations is that the details become lost and the mentality becomes that the system does not contain this or that.
> 
> ...


 
The dummy is a separate form full of techniques that are not usually done in the empty hand forms or in any other training. That is why the dummy, pole, knives are usually referred to as the non-hand forms!

I once met an instructor (quite a wise old man), who said that the way of thinking about the non hand forms is that sil nim tao is the basic blueprint for all structures within wing chun. Chum kil is the way of moving the structures freely. And Bil jee is the way of delivering the structures to an opponent

So basically you go from :-
The first form - training structures on their own with no contact
The second form - bridging contact to an opponent
The third form - striking contact to an opponent 

Of course it is a very loose interperetation as many moves within the forms are designed to make contact, but hopefully you'll see where he was coming from

The non hand forms are individual to these sets. They contain many movements that you do not normally perform in day to day wing chun (cat stance from the pole form, etc)

Forms and moves do change over time, but I get annoyed with people who state that if we arent doing a certain something, then we are obviously are doing a watered down version of wing chun blah blah blah

I wonder if Ng Mui had had a chance to watch Ip Man doing forms etc, she would have criticized his movements....


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## geezer (Apr 19, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> Forms and moves do change over time, but I get annoyed with people who state that if we arent doing a certain something, then we are obviously are doing a watered down version of wing chun blah blah blah
> 
> I wonder if Ng Mui had had a chance to watch Ip Man doing forms etc, she would have criticized his movements....


 
Heck, _Ng Mui was the worst of all_ when it came to simplifying the system and leaving out movements. The story says that she came from Shaolin, and after being inspired by watching a crane and a snake fight, she developed this _simpified_ approach that later became known as Wing Chun. Seriously, Shaolin is the real deal. WC is just a watered down simplified version, right? And as you pointed out, Kamon, GM Yip wasn't much better. Many have noted how his WC is more condensed than some of the old mainland versions that have survived. 

So if you want to learn the real deal, go ahead and forget WC. Find a style with a thousand forms and ten thousand techniques. I'll keep doing what I do and hope that some day I can, at least, achieve some real mastery of the basics. I think this approach to training is called... _Siu Nim Tau._


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## melry88 (Apr 20, 2010)

Kamon Guy - Hey sorry if I made you feel that I was criticizing what GM Ip Man has passed down. I was trying to explain to the Naneek that he does not need to wait until he learned the structured movements of the jong because they are all movements he should be somewhat familiar with.

What timeline would you put to a learning track before you got to the dummy One year two years etc.? I cannot believe that someone would have to go a year or a year and a half before learning quan sau, po pai and what about the kicks we see in the dummy not in the forms? Again I am not discrediting any, but Geezer called me on my statement about us using the dummy as a training tool and I wanted to supply more information.

How can the dummy be considered a non-empty hand form when you are applying empty hand techniques on the dummy? What about if the dummy was used at all stages of training (SLT, Chum Kiu, Bui Tze) and as you progressed you used more advanced techniques on the dummy.

Geezer - Nice smart $$$ comments - I guess you really are not opened for a civil discussion. Your teacher even published a book on the different branches of Ving Tsun which shows how close everything branch truly is (if you are the Steve I am thinking of).

Guys again I am also under GM Ip Ching&#8217;s lineage so I am not criticizing what any lineage is doing just trying to justify my comments from which Geezer disagreed with. If your lineage says the dummy is a form that is cool we just do not view it as a separate form, but more of a training tool.

Thanks...


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## geezer (Apr 20, 2010)

melry88 said:


> Geezer - Nice smart $$$ comments - I guess you really are not opened for a civil discussion.



Melry88 --Sorry if I offended. It's just that I get kinda bored sometimes... so I check in and try to write something sort of witty. More often than not, I only half succeed... and come off a bit _half-witty._




melry88 said:


> Your teacher even published a book on the different branches of Ving Tsun which shows how close everything branch truly is (if you are the Steve I am thinking of).



Thinking of me? I doubt it... since I'm pretty much a nobody in the WC world. My former sifu did write a book on the subject:_ Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun._ Although it is presented with a strong bias and has an amateurish and clumsy layout reminiscent of a high-school yearbook, it is a trove of information on the history and branches of our WC family. Smart-*** comments aside, I agree with your point about how closely our WC roots are and fell a strong kinship with other practitioners of our WC family, regardless of lineage.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 21, 2010)

melry88 said:


> Kamon Guy - Hey sorry if I made you feel that I was criticizing what GM Ip Man has passed down. I was trying to explain to the Naneek that he does not need to wait until he learned the structured movements of the jong because they are all movements he should be somewhat familiar with.
> 
> What timeline would you put to a learning track before you got to the dummy One year two years etc.? I cannot believe that someone would have to go a year or a year and a half before learning quan sau, po pai and what about the kicks we see in the dummy not in the forms? Again I am not discrediting any, but Geezer called me on my statement about us using the dummy as a training tool and I wanted to supply more information.
> 
> ...


 
The dummy is considered a non empty hand form merely because most of the moves you perform involve contact or holding the dummy in some way. Therefore it is considered different to doing a form where there is nothing in front of you

Some of the moves of the dummy, you will be familiar with - in the same way that some moves that you do at basic level will be revisited in the third form etc. I think you are looking at the techniques within the forms as 'cant be done at all until you learn that particular form'. It is like saying you cant do a punch until you have learnt siu nim tao. Some movements will be done in drills and then you will see them in forms later on 

I used to drill in finger strikes under one instructor (same way you drill in chain punches), and then found that they were in many of the forms

The point of the forms is mainly movement and position. It is not just to perfect the structure of a technique (although it does help do this)

I know that some schools train the dummy from day one. Personally I think this is a bad idea, but each to their own. There is no timeline given on a students progression. At Kamon we have a sash and grading system, but even then you may find that some students do not learn the dummy form until they are black sash. Other students may do it at intermediatry levle like Green sash. It is down to what kind of student they are and what will help them progress. You cant fit everyone into the same box


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## melry88 (Apr 21, 2010)

Kamon Guy - Thanks for your response I have added a link to an essay written by Chu Shong Tin Ip man's Disciple:

"The Wooden Dummy is recognised as the highest skill in Wing Chun. Hence, the majority of Wing Chun learners consider that learning the moves of the Wooden Dummy will automatically become a good Wing Chun fighter. Some even feel very happy with themselves and boast about their own achievements to the junior learners.

*The moves of the Wooden Dummy are all good for fighting. However, those moves are actually formed by the basic moves of Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu and Bill Gee. They are not uniquely owned by the Wooden Dummy only.*

In fact, the practice of the Wooden Dummy is taken as an auxiliary measure for the training of the Wing Chun forms. If your purpose is to practise the skill of the three forms then you should treat the Wooden Dummy as a piece of equipment and try your best to practise the moves and the skill of the three forms on it. You should also try to feel if your goal has been achieved, e.g. trying to concentrate the force of the whole body to a particular point and induce the opponent's force for your own use (N.B. to induce the opponent's force for your own use is one of the basic structure of Bill Gee, which is the combined effect of rotation of the body and the formation of the whirlpool effect). On the other hand, if you treat the Wooden Dummy as your opponent, you should try to concentrate your own force, as well as the skill of inducing the opponent's force, to attack the Wooden Dummy so as to attain the state that your hands can reach any part of the opponent as your mind wishes to do.

As I said before, if I describe every move of the Wooden Dummy in writing, one will find it difficult to follow and it may even lead him away from the principal goal in practising the Wooden Dummy. For this reason, I have made up my mind to show you the skill of the forms as well as the Wooden Dummy myself so that you can feel the mysterious and profound skill of the Wing Chun Kung Fu."

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/article/article08.htm

Here is one from Moy Yat also a Disciple of Ip Man's:

*"It should be noted that a Moy Fah Jong cannot, in itself, teach anything to a Ving Tsun practitioner. All of the techniques and attributes used when practicing on a Jong are learned elsewhere."*

http://www.moyyat.com/dummy.html

Thanks again guys for the debate and I do understand where you are coming from.

Best...


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 22, 2010)

melry88 said:


> Kamon Guy - Thanks for your response I have added a link to an essay written by Chu Shong Tin Ip man's Disciple:
> 
> "The Wooden Dummy is recognised as the highest skill in Wing Chun. Hence, the majority of Wing Chun learners consider that learning the moves of the Wooden Dummy will automatically become a good Wing Chun fighter. Some even feel very happy with themselves and boast about their own achievements to the junior learners.
> 
> ...


 
Nice essay and I appreciate the texts you have put in. It is always good to hear opinions clearly expressed and referenced, and we are all on here to learn and teach, no matter how long we have trained. 

Some parts of the articles I agree with, others I dont. There are moves that appear within the dummy that do not appear elsewhere in the forms. Certainly you will find certain positions similar in every form you do, but the dummy does have unique movements. Think of the kicks and footwork alone - you do not perform those in any other form! 

Hey, maybe we are doing different dummy sets, who knows. 

Reading the first couple of lines from your post, it is sad that people see the dummy as teh highest skill within wing chun and boast about the fact they can do it. I learnt some of the non hand forms at an early level but didnt feel the need to boast about it to other people of my rank. Who cares how much skill you have - there is always someone with more skill out there!


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## melry88 (Apr 22, 2010)

Kamon Guy - Those are not my words, but Chu Shong Tin's.

I think the point I keep going back to is to question why do you see footwork or kicks in the dummy that are not in the empty hand forms? Most of the time from what I have been told is that things were changed here and there even from Ip Man's teachings.

I have heard that during one the VTAA conferences Ip Ching even discussed on tape how he went to his father and requested to change some moves of Biu Tze. To which I have been told Ip Man agreed.

If we go back to Moy Yat's words *"It should be noted that a Moy Fah Jong cannot, in itself, teach anything to a Ving Tsun practitioner. All of the techniques and attributes used when practicing on a Jong are learned elsewhere." *Then we should question our Sifu's as to where these kicks were originally in the empty hand forms.

From what I have been told many teachers will not describe everything in detail, but allow the student to ask questions and formulate their own opinions. If the student does not the question or even say the right question then the teacher does not always fill in the blanks.

My Sifu talks about how he teaches the system as an alphabet and it is up to us the students to make words with the letters.

Thanks again and I wish you well in your training...


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 23, 2010)

melry88 said:


> I think the point I keep going back to is to question why do you see footwork or kicks in the dummy that are not in the empty hand forms? Most of the time from what I have been told is that things were changed here and there even from Ip Man's teachings.
> 
> I have heard that during one the VTAA conferences Ip Ching even discussed on tape how he went to his father and requested to change some moves of Biu Tze. To which I have been told Ip Man agreed.
> 
> ...


Trust me when I say I have looked everywhere (at other schools etc) and I can never find the kicks that are employed in the dunny form in any other form. Do you train the kicks in other forms? 

Dummy training by itself will not teach you that much (you might as well train with a living opponent). But I find that the form flows every well and gets you moving smoothly around the dummy which in turn teaches you about three dimensional footwork. The only other form that does this is the knives, but even that is quite limited in its actual leg movement 

The dummy also allows you the experience of practising techaniques against an object, which is not done in any other form

So I kind of disagree with Moy Yat that the dummy cannot teach you anything. It is similar to saying that a going from puching in thin air to punching a focus pad will not teach you anything

As I said, there may be differences in how we train the dummy (I have seen pole forms where the practitioner spins in a circle 360 degrees etc)


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## CRCAVirginia (Apr 23, 2010)

Here is a *partial* list of the benefits of constant training with the Mook Yan Joang.

Students learn to direct power properly, keeping the body at the proper distance from the dummy and the correct angle in relation to the Centerline.  Sticking Energy is developed further as is Body Unity and Connecting Energy.  Eye Focusing Power which was learned at Chum Kiu level is put into play as the eyes remain constantly fixed on the Centerline.  

Many kicking techniques that do not appear in the second or third form are found in the second half of the dummy form. Sweeping kick, Hooking Foot, Wing Leg, Raising Knee Strike.


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