# Would you fight back against a knifeman?



## Kane (Sep 14, 2004)

Okay, you see it in Martial Art movies all the time. A bad guy grabs a knife or Chinese Broadsword and grabs from behind and says "If you move I will slit your throat!" The hero Martial Artists then does a back kick to the groin, elbow to the head, snapemare the man, ect. However, would these attacks work in real life.

Would a good kick to the groin really stun a dude with a knife making enough time to run or fight back? I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin. Would be long enough to escape a stab or slit to the throat?

How about an elbow to the head, would you do it? If you don't hit the guy hard enough to escape he will get you hard with the knife. Even ad snapmare (head throw). If you don't throw them with enough force they will yet again get with the knife. So do you think it would be better to do with the man says if he caught you blind-eyed with a knife? Not sure whether I would, but it might be safer. 

How about fighting a knifeman? Do you think disarming techniques are practical or is it better to run?

What do you think about all of this?


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## MJS (Sep 14, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> Okay, you see it in Martial Art movies all the time. A bad guy grabs a knife or Chinese Broadsword and grabs from behind and says "If you move I will slit your throat!" The hero Martial Artists then does a back kick to the groin, elbow to the head, snapemare the man, ect. However, would these attacks work in real life.
> 
> Would a good kick to the groin really stun a dude with a knife making enough time to run or fight back? I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin. Would be long enough to escape a stab or slit to the throat?
> 
> ...



In any situation, I feel that the first thing that should be attempted would be to remove yourself from the situation.  In other words, if you can run, do so.  If that is not an option, find something to use as an equalizer.  Pretty much anywhere you look, you should be able to find something.  A stick, rock, sand, chair, belt, etc. and using it to aid in your defense.  

IMO, any time you're dealing with a weapon, attempting to gain control of the weapon hand is important.  From there, work your defense, strikes, etc.  

Keep in mind that much of what you see in the movies is for show.  The "good guy" could be in a room with 15 others, and of course he's going to win!!  The thing with disarms is to keep it simple and effective.

Keep your training as realistic as possible, with aliveness and resistance.  By doing that you'll find what works and what doesnt.

Mike


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 14, 2004)

Heck yeah, I'm going to run.  I'll use empty hand skills only if running isn't an option.

Example...I'm standing between the assailant and a child.  Anybody going to run then?  

But then, I almost always carry a knife.  So I guess the scenario likely won't play that way.


Regards,


Steve


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## YouAgain (Sep 14, 2004)

Distract him and then "Run Forest, Run!"


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## bignick (Sep 15, 2004)

if it's a robbery situation throw your billfold one way and run the other...he has to make a choice...and i'd go for the money...


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## Zepp (Sep 15, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Heck yeah, I'm going to run.  I'll use empty hand skills only if running isn't an option.
> 
> Example...I'm standing between the assailant and a child.  Anybody going to run then?
> 
> But then, I almost always carry a knife.  So I guess the scenario likely won't play that way.



Ditto.

I carry a knife, but I'd still rather run than be forced to close the distance with a knife-wielding attacker.  There'd have to be some reason I'm forced to engage.


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## Disco (Sep 15, 2004)

I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin.

I can't help but honestly question that statement........ I can understand an exception to the rule, but many men that can control a groin hit? How many times have we all seen trained boxers get a low blow and their wearing protection, get the fight stopped so they can recover. Same for UFC, Pride, K-1 and so on.  :btg:


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## bignick (Sep 15, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin.
> 
> I can't help but honestly question that statement........ I can understand an exception to the rule, but many men that can control a groin hit? How many times have we all seen trained boxers get a low blow and their wearing protection, get the fight stopped so they can recover. Same for UFC, Pride, K-1 and so on. :btg:


i question the validity of this statement...but there is some truth to what he says...i highly doubt the ability of anyone to control a groin shot...to avoid it...yes...guys are trained from birth to protect that area..and we can cross our legs at the speed of light to avoid taking a shot there...

however...in a real life fight situation...your body goes into fight or flight response as we all know...but one of the things the body does is the scrotum pulls up to help protect the testicles...in this position...if you get kicked in the groin...the testicles may just get kicked up into the body...which hurts...but isn't nearly as debilatating as a normal groin shot...not to mention the effects of adrenaline overriding pain....


but, yes...for a guy to stand there and take a shot to the groin and not start crying is doubtable...


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## KenpoTex (Sep 15, 2004)

Would I fight a knife-wielding attacker?  Yeah...if the stakes were high enough and I couldn't get away.  However, it's not going to be pretty.  IMHO, a knife is the most dangerous weapon you can encounter at close-quarters which is precisely the reason that at any given time I have at least two on my person.  I would personally rate a knife over a gun at extreme close range because with a gun, as long as you can grab it and keep the muzzle pointed away you're in pretty good shape (I'm speaking in relative terms here if you hadn't already guessed ).  A knife however is much harder to control without sustaining some type of injury because unlike a gun, where the only dangerous part is the hole in the end, you can't grab the knife without getting cut.  Therefore, you are reduced to trying to control the arm or hand which still allows some freedom of movement.  It can be done but it's not something that I ever want to have to do.  As far as defending against the knife to the throat scenario, the best defense is to not get there in the first place.


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## AaronLucia (Sep 15, 2004)

RUN AWAY! FAR AWAY!

Now if you are cornered, you have no choice..maybe u can talk him out of it.
If not, it's either do or die.


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## kenpo tiger (Sep 15, 2004)

Run if you can.  If you can't control the knife and and attempt to strike it to break and make the attacker drop it.  There are quite a few knife defense techs we're taught in kenpo starting at third brown and going through black.  Then again, we're also taught if the strike doesn't make him drop it, then you control the arm and use the weapon against him.  Important to notice which way the blade is facing also.  You need to strike when it's facing away from you.

So I guess the answer is, given no other choice, yes.  Am I confident doing it?  Again, yes.  My instructor has taught me well and continues to do so.


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## OC Kid (Sep 15, 2004)

Well one thing my first instructor taught me and I teach it to this day, If you can get out of it do it. If you decide to actually fight the guy then you better be sure your better without a weapon then he is with a weapon.


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## bignick (Sep 15, 2004)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Would I fight a knife-wielding attacker? Yeah...if the stakes were high enough and I couldn't get away. However, it's not going to be pretty. IMHO, a knife is the most dangerous weapon you can encounter at close-quarters which is precisely the reason that at any given time I have at least two on my person. I would personally rate a knife over a gun at extreme close range because with a gun, as long as you can grab it and keep the muzzle pointed away you're in pretty good shape (I'm speaking in relative terms here if you hadn't already guessed ). A knife however is much harder to control without sustaining some type of injury because unlike a gun, where the only dangerous part is the hole in the end, you can't grab the knife without getting cut. Therefore, you are reduced to trying to control the arm or hand which still allows some freedom of movement. It can be done but it's not something that I ever want to have to do. As far as defending against the knife to the throat scenario, the best defense is to not get there in the first place.


well...if you try to grab a semi-automatic pistol on the slide and it goes of it can break your hand when it rechambers...


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## Flatlander (Sep 15, 2004)

If the attacker knows how to use a knife, you're getting cut.  Maybe a lot.  Hopefully all those who learn the blade are good people who wouldn't dream of ever doing such a thing.  But that's kind of an unrealistic notion.


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## loki09789 (Sep 15, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> well...if you try to grab a semi-automatic pistol on the slide and it goes of it can break your hand when it rechambers...


Actually grabbing the slide will disrupt the firing cycle and probably jam the weapon. I don't know too many calibers that would literally break bones in your hand, but you will definitely know you grabbed a gun when a finger, skin fold or something gets pinched in the slide action or the powder burn from the discharge finally registers through the adrenaline....OUCH.

Fight a knife wielding attacker, sure.  With my gun, a rock, stick, garbage can, car, empty hand....as I am running and screaming like a little girl in pigtails (dragging my family with me if need be give the circumstances).

The point for civilians is to either neutralize or escape from a threat (knife or otherwise).  I am NOT going to go toe to toe and try to 'take on' ANYONE in a self defense situation because it isn't the ring.

Size up the situation, make a plan, commit to that plan, adjust the plan as the situation changes (which it will), and always work toward a goal of creating escape routes and opportunities.


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## Kane (Sep 15, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin.
> 
> I can't help but honestly question that statement........ I can understand an exception to the rule, but many men that can control a groin hit? How many times have we all seen trained boxers get a low blow and their wearing protection, get the fight stopped so they can recover. Same for UFC, Pride, K-1 and so on. :btg:


I'm not saying that it won't hurt. However, what if the kick to the groin doesn't get his hands off you? He will have a chance to cut you then. Some people can avoid the pain of a groin kick and won't completly fall down or sometimes will only slightly flinch. f he still has you then he might have enough time to cut the defender.


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## bignick (Sep 15, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Actually grabbing the slide will disrupt the firing cycle and probably jam the weapon. I don't know too many calibers that would literally break bones in your hand, but you will definitely know you grabbed a gun when a finger, skin fold or something gets pinched in the slide action or the powder burn from the discharge finally registers through the adrenaline....OUCH.


you'd have to have a heck of a grip to stop the slide...i guess what i was referring to wasn't so much the grabbing of the slide, but if you're hand is behind the slide...when it kicks back...it's going fast enough where there is a good possiblity of serious injury

any way you try to cut it...it's a bad situation to be in...


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## Disco (Sep 15, 2004)

I'm not saying that it won't hurt. However, what if the kick to the groin doesn't get his hands off you? He will have a chance to cut you then. Some people can avoid the pain of a groin kick and won't completly fall down or sometimes will only slightly flinch. f he still has you then he might have enough time to cut the defender.

I'm still amazed at the thought process of a great many people that study the "Arts". Many just focus on the one aspect of defense, in this case the groin kick and interject the plethora of what if's...... Either their training is greatly lacking or they have not reached that level of training that answers questions. In this case I will gladly defer to my Kenpo/Kempo brethern, who use what I like to call a "barrage attack". The groin kick would be just the prelude to at least 3 or 4 additional strikes. Just using the given statement above,"I'm not saying that it won't hurt", opens the door for the defender. The human brain,when registering pain, focus's entirely on that pain. I'm not saying that the time element is going to be long, but all a defender needs is 1 or 2 seconds of the attackers distraction to offer him additional deterrents.


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## loki09789 (Sep 15, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> you'd have to have a heck of a grip to stop the slide...i guess what i was referring to wasn't so much the grabbing of the slide, but if you're hand is behind the slide...when it kicks back...it's going fast enough where there is a good possiblity of serious injury
> 
> any way you try to cut it...it's a bad situation to be in...


Easier than you would think to interrupt the firing cycle. The slide will still move some, but it will not function properly and that could create misfeeds, jams or smokestack casing situations.  Depending on the auto design, there may be a slide lock that you could trip/engage (probably accidentally because I would be FAR from calm enough to look for it well) that might help the cause. In that same line, some designs have slide releases that will send it off track or completely take it off the gun.

Yeah, I think if you should assume injury as just a day at the races if you are dealing with any confrontation.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Sep 15, 2004)

If the attacker knows how to use a knife you wont see it when he slashes at you. But you will feel it as it penitrates. I would first say get out of there ASAP. You have nothing to prove going against someone with an edged weapon.  This guy could be an idiot but do you really want to take the chance.
I had a freind of mine tell me a story once.
His buddy was down in florida with this good tournament fighter (TF). They were in a bar when TF bumped into someone. The guy he bumped into appologized and said "i'm sorry i didnt mean to bump into you". But, TF didnt accept it and taunted the guy to step outside. Again the guy appologized but, TF wanted to fight. So they both stepped outside. TF took of his shoes and started doing some flashy kicks. The other guy took out a straight razor and knew how to use it. 
TF guys kicks we no match for the other guy. The other guy cut TF up pretty bad. TF lost this fight Big Time.

If you are stuck in a situation where you can't get out of it. I would recommend using some of the weapons that are around us all the time. Then get otta there. You have no idea of what someone knows with a blade and i dont think you want to find out.

Just wondering how many people have gone against a real knife fighter on the street not inside a class or seminar and what happend ?


Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## bignick (Sep 15, 2004)

there's a difference between someone who intends on killing you...in which case you won't see the weapon until it way too late, if at all....and a robbery situation where the person wishes to intimidate you into compliance by brandishing the knife 

the first situation...you're a goner...

the second situation...it depends...if i honestly feel that all the person wants is my money...they got it, if i feel that it's going to move onto bigger and badder things...i may not win...but i'd do my damn best to see that he's coming with me...

this sounds like big tough guy talk...well...i'm not a not a big tough guy...this is just the truth..if i felt my life in serious danger, i'm gonna fight back...

one thing my sensei has recommended to the self defense class he teaches at the university is taking all those pre-approved credit cards and stuff you get and cutting out the name...putting them in a billfold with about 5 bucks and throwing that so the attacker will hopefully go for the "money" and will also have no way of identifying you...


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## Mark Weiser (Sep 15, 2004)

In a Knife fight the key is preparing yourself mentally that you will be cut and there will be some pain and blood coming out of your body and or the attackers body. 

Once you have prepared yourself mentally and emotionally for this (requires specialized training) you will be able to focus on disarming the attacker once the fight has started. Additionally if you feel the need to protect yourself there is body armour that is available that protects aganist stabbing attacks.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Sep 18, 2004)

Short answer: Yes.


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## 8253 (Sep 18, 2004)

Escape should be the first option that is looked for and excecuted if possible.  If not, then control of the weapon is imperitive.  It really dosent matter if you kick them in the groin or elbow them in the head, you can still be cut or stabbed during the action.  However if you are able to grab hold of the weapon hand or arm, and break one of their joints they will no longer be able to use the weapon in that hand against you.  I would only fight if it were the absolute last option.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Sep 18, 2004)

The most effective defense is a homocidal offense.  Sick, but with a guy with a weapon, true.

Dave


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## SMP (Sep 19, 2004)

*My theory is I dont look for trouble, in fact I usually will step out of troubles way or offer to buy it a beer if I happened to be in its way. That being said - If someone comes at me with a knife I would make sure they did not do it to someone else down the road.*


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 21, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> 1)Okay, you see it in Martial Art movies all the time. A bad guy grabs a knife or Chinese Broadsword and grabs from behind and says "If you move I will slit your throat!" The hero Martial Artists then does a back kick to the groin, elbow to the head, snapemare the man, ect. However, would these attacks work in real life.
> 
> 2)Would a good kick to the groin really stun a dude with a knife making enough time to run or fight back? I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin. Would be long enough to escape a stab or slit to the throat?
> 
> ...



Kane

1) I assume you are talking about an atack from behind here with the guys arm around your throat and knife laying against the other side of your throat?

In this case I don't think a bring of the leg up to kick the groin is the best idea.  Giving him your wallet this is a better course of action.  But if you have to fight back because you believe your going die anyway I would first move try and control the arm/hand with the knife then fight on.

2) I've seen in demonstrations "Hard KI" where guys take full power kicks to the groin, but I don't think the average robber is into that, so yes I think a good old kick to the groin would work to stun the guy.  However again it depends on the position you and him are in at the time, if I would even attempt one.  Remeber if you are to far away and he can see the kick coming you might get your foot/leg stabbed in the process.

3)  Going back to the first situation again I would have a hard time elbowing a person from this position since his arm would probably blocking my arm, however do I believe the elbow to the head is a good technique that might stun a guy and allow me to get away?  Given once again the right circumstances (body positions) I think so.

4) Run away......  Actually I wouldn't want to fight a knife wielding attacker without a gun, long stick or something else to keep him at bay.

Mark


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 21, 2004)

Rule of thumb: "You run from a knife, and rush a gun".


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## bignick (Sep 21, 2004)

actually...i believe the statistic for being shot if you run from someone with a gun is around 6-8%...and the chances of hitting something vital are even less...


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## Nightwish (Oct 14, 2004)

Zepp said:
			
		

> Ditto.
> 
> I carry a knife, but I'd still rather run than be forced to close the distance with a knife-wielding attacker. There'd have to be some reason I'm forced to engage.


Carrying a knife is not enough, you have to know your city laws, and also how to USE YOUR KNIFE. Have you tried opening a folder under an adrenaline dump? it is ****ing HARD to do. Try it and see what the out come is. He best way is to open the knife in your pocket if you knew you were going to need it, cause during the heat of battle he's gonna be busy trying to gut you, and you will most likely not get the chance to draw your knife cause you are busy controlling the weapon hand.

Don't forget to "foil the draw" of your attacker if you are within range.

Also find out what the quick kill targets are, the bleeder targets are, and the immobilization targets are...if you know these and train to attack these vital parts, you will have a better chance.

Also remember there is no such thing as a knife FIGHT...rather, it is an assassination


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## kenpoworks (Oct 17, 2004)

_*Would you fight back against a knifeman?* _

_mmm... I'd have a choice_


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## An Eternal Student (Oct 21, 2004)

If it all possible, I'd get my *** out of there.I was attacked by a guy with a knife before and its the second scariest attack that's happened to me.The 1st was a psycho using a shard of broken glass from a beer bottle.That was pretty damn terrifying!Anyway,the groin kick will work, but you have to move in and neutralise his knife-hand too.In my case after the kick I grabbed his wrist and pivoted in past his guard,ramming an elbow up into his nose.Then I did my best the snap his wrist!It was only afterwards I realised how bloody risky that was.I never wanna be in that position again!


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## Patrick Skerry (Oct 24, 2004)

Again, depending on how the knifeman presented himself is how I would ascertain whether or not I would fight back.

If the knife wielder gave a presence of professionalism and experience, than I would just simply try to get away as fast as possible.

But if he acted like an egotistical idiot who was waving his knife around just trying to scare you and impress himself, then I would have a go and fight back.

So it all depends on reading the knifeman's demeanor correctly.


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## Adept (Nov 6, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> However, would these attacks work in real life...
> What do you think about all of this?


 I think this is a 27 ninjas question. To whit, by the time you have gotten yourself into this situation, you are either the star of a kung fu flick (and are thus almost assured of victory) or you have made a great deal of quite silly mistakes.

 If I found myself in that extremely unlikely scenario, I would probably go along with the knifeman until I saw an appropriate opening. With the knife pressed tightly at your throat, you are very limited.

 If I was attacked by a knife weilding assailant, I would probably run, or just hand over my wallet. There is very little to be gained from fighting these people. It often pays, if you think you are likely to be mugged, to carry a spare wallet or bill-fold to toss away as bait. When the mugger picks it up, you run like crazy.

 Unavoidable phsycal confrontation is a extreme, and like any extreme, it takes time and effort to get there. Avoid that time and effort, and you avoid the fight.


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## Vadim (Nov 6, 2004)

Sure, I would kick him square in the groin and watch him fall over. Then I would place my foot on his body and stand triumphantly over him with my chest puffed out :btg: . ..... Seriously though a trained knife fighter would be a challenge and if you can tactically retreat that may be a wise option. For a brief moment when facing off against this knife wielding maniac you dont have many options available to you. 

      In law enforcement though you may not have the option of retreat and you may have to deal with the situation which may call for the use of deadly force. Hopefully a peaceable solution can be found. I've seen a situation where a drug addicted individual was in the middle of a busy intersection with a large kitchen knife. This individual had some serious mental issues as he was stabbing himself and threatening to stab anyone that came near him. 

     Less than lethal methods did not work on him and the situation was escalating to a point that officer safety was in peril. The end result of this situation was tragic. The individual lunged at officers with the knife and the threat was nuetralized. The bottom line is go home safe. 

-Vadim


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## KenpoTex (Nov 7, 2004)

Vadim said:
			
		

> The bottom line is go home safe.


 Exactly!


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## still learning (Nov 10, 2004)

No, and I would run if there is a chance too! We practice 10 different knife defense technics,and most of the time we get cut(rubber knife), or lose our life. What happen's when the adrenline kicks in? Will we think straight?

 Second point..the attacker does not care about you, if he kills you or not. There thinking is not like normal people,Why carry a knife? Because he feel he needs too.

 Think of the people who use the knife at you as an assassin! You may or may not notice the knife untill to late...!  Once they pull it,they will use it on you. 

 Our number 10, knife defence is RUN.  works all the time! never loss yet

 Mahalo and Aloha from Hawaii


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## MJS (Nov 11, 2004)

still learning said:
			
		

> No, and I would run if there is a chance too!



I agree.  Running is the best option, if its an option.



> We practice 10 different knife defense technics,and most of the time we get cut(rubber knife), or lose our life. What happen's when the adrenline kicks in? Will we think straight?



Thats why during training, it should be as realistic as you can make it.  Now, I'm not saying train with a real knife, but use a marker, or a training blade with something such as lipstick on the edges, so you can see the 'cuts' as they happen.  By putting your mind in that stressfull situation, you'll be better prepared for the real thing!



> Second point..the attacker does not care about you, if he kills you or not. There thinking is not like normal people,Why carry a knife? Because he feel he needs too.



Not necessarily true.  Just because a weapon is implied or shown does not mean that it'll always be used.  Alot of times its the intimidation factor, and thats what they're hoping for.



> Think of the people who use the knife at you as an assassin! You may or may not notice the knife untill to late...!  Once they pull it,they will use it on you.



See above.



> Our number 10, knife defence is RUN.  works all the time! never loss yet



Agreed.

Mike


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## Bod (Nov 12, 2004)

You _always_ fight back against a knife attacker.

Running _is_ fighting. Fighting for your life.

Talking them down _is_ fighting. Fighting for your life.

Swerving out the way to avoid being cut is fighting.

Punching them in the gut so hard they don't get back up is also fighting. And if you're desperate, because running and talking have failed or are likely to fail, then you're desperate.

I've done all four in my time and I'm still alive to tell the story.

And I've been practising my running.


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## Paul Genge (Dec 13, 2004)

Working against knives and firarms is a specific skill that most styles do not address. If this kind of work interests you seek out people and styles that have the training methods that can teach you what you want. 

When working against either weapon the first thing you must do before considering any form of strike is to protect yourself from the immediate threat. There are ways of moving that will take the blade away from your neck. Until recently I had clips of this kind of work on my site. 

I do however have some work against pistol clips. In this clip the range is very short. However you can see how the initial movement is designed to take the body out of the way of the the line of fire. 

On this clip there is work against stabs. Again you can see that the first thing to be considered is to avoid the direction of the thrust or to move in such away that the knife is diverted out of the way.

It is possible to work against both types of threat, but it does have dangers associated with it, but so does doing nothing. The choice is yours.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 20, 2004)

still learning said:
			
		

> No, and I would run if there is a chance too! We practice 10 different knife defense technics,and most of the time we get cut(rubber knife), or lose our life. What happen's when the adrenline kicks in? Will we think straight?
> 
> Second point..the attacker does not care about you, if he kills you or not. There thinking is not like normal people,Why carry a knife? Because he feel he needs too.
> 
> ...


Not true at all. I've got still photos of a police detective who got chased down by a knife wielding attacker and stabbed to death after putting 6 rounds of .38 in to the guy. We use them in training.

As for the question of fighting a knife wielding attacker, there are some issues to discuss. First off, fighting a knife wielding attacker unarmed is a bad situation to be in. If you have to do, securing the weapon hand should be number one priority. Trying to trade punches with this guy is a losing proposition, considering your punch isn't going to do as much damage as his jab. Even if you hit him in the groin, he's still going to poke extra holes in you that you weren't born with, so securing the weapon hand is of infinite importance. That having been said, good luck. If he really wants to stab you, and he's of comparable (or worse, greater) strength than you, you're going to get stabbed unless you have some pretty good skill at getting that weapon hand. It's not a place I want to be in, and i've trained for it. What would I do? Even carrying a gun, we train to parry the knife hand off and push the assailant away from us, to build space to draw and fire our sidearm. At close range a knife trumps a hostered Glock any day. Some suggestions.

Control distance (Close range is in his favor, not yours)

Get a ranged weapon (The further out of arms reach you can keep him the better.)

Once you have a weapon, attack the weapon hand or cause him as much incapacitating damage as possible (depending on the nature of the weapon you have gotten.)

If you're sure you can outrun the guy, go for it. However, if you're not sure, remember you stand the risk of being stabbed in the back. I once showed up at a bar fight where one guy had been chasing another guy around with a large knife (one of those old Rambo specials with the matches in the handle). The guy had nick and slice marks all up and down his back, but nothing fatal. He managed to keep this guy just out of reach of real damage. That's TOO close.

Train for this type of attack. Make your training as real as possible. Get different people (yes, not some guy you train with, or who "knows" how to use a knife, but people who have no idea how you train) to attack you with a rubber knife. Tell them to go at you as hard as they can, and really try to stab you with this rubber knife. Get different kinds of people. Let them decide how to attack, and you learn to respond to them. This will be frustrating work, but it's the best way to train this. Many people train knife attacks as if they were orderly and pre-set, and that's a fatal mistake. Knife attacks are extremely chaotic. They do, however, have a more limited number of variables than general hand to hand fighting. The end goal of all knife attacks is to bring some part of the blade of the knife in to contact with some part of your body to cause damage. This will be a stab or a slash. So there is (some) good news. You can limit your responses to the number of ways a knife can be brought to bear. That helps a little, and it's a good way to start thinking about it.

That brings us to one final point, and a HUGE misconception about knife attacks. Most knife attacks are stealth attacks, meaning the victim never saw the knife. Most people visualize a knife attacks as the attacker flashing the knife out in some very dramatic way, then you have the chance to defend against it. It doesn't work that way. If someone is threatening your with a displayed knife, they probably don't want to stab you. Someone who wants to stab you, will try and conceal the knife. Part of your training should consist of understanding and awareness of your environment and potential threats in it. Learn to notice when someone who is carrying a knife. Look for belt clips and other signs of a concealed weapon. Learn to recognize "Palming", a trick where a person hides the knife by turning their palm away from you. Remember, if you can't see all five fingers and the palm of each hand, it's possible they have a weapon in their hand. 
Remember these words "Undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy". That is the mindset of someone who wants to put a piece of cold-steel in your body. You'd better detect that movement. It's the attack you don't see that kills.

Finally, try to avoid knife fights.


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## Paul Genge (Dec 22, 2004)

On the subject of training to work against a knife, do not forget to use the real thing.  If not, should the day come where you are faced with the real thing you are just as likely to freeze as if you have had no training.  The reason for this is no matter how hard or fast your attacker comes at you in training your subconcious will recognise a rubber knife for what it is, a * TOY*.

Start learning with the knife against the body and get comfortable with this.  Then slowly increase the distance.  Learn to move so that the body causes the flat of the blade to contact it and not the tip of the knife.  The simplist drill for this is to have your partner slowly poke you with the knife.  Do this slowly and feel the contact of the knife and the direction of the thrust.  Doing this you should then be able to move the bit in contact with the tip of the knife out of the way.  Once out of the way it is often simply a case of rotating the body back to apply presure to the flat of the blade.  This is a simple principle to use in situations where the weapon is pushed against your body as some sort of threat.  You can practice this with wooden or aluminium knives, but if done properly a real knife is the most effective way of learning to move correctly.  After all the body will not intentionally tense up and push back against something that will run it through.

I hate advertisments on forums, but I have not come across a better video on the subject than Vladimir Vasiliev's latest dvd.  Instead of concentrating on a list of techniques this video shows a progressive training method that moves throughout all the ranges involved. The drills shown do develop instinctual movements that work.  Prior to seeing Vlad demonstrate defence against two knife weilding opponents, who had no script, I had never considered moving away from the Bujinkan.  I know train exclusively in Systema and would recommend studying it to anyone looking for a different approach to the same old questions most of us have asked ourselves about the martial arts.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## MJS (Dec 22, 2004)

Hi Paul!! Good post!  While not everyone will agree that using a real knife in the training hall is the way to go, I agree that one should be used to the real deal.  Obviously its not for everyone, but you'll certainly get a different feel, knowing that you're going to have to be more aware of how the disarms are done to prevent getting cut.  

At the very least, using a marker, or a training blade with something applied to the edges, will also keep your training 'alive'.  As for a gun disarm...using a water pistol is also an option.  I saw a gun disarm tape that had 2 guys using a gun that fired wax bullets.  It definately gave the tape a more realistic feel to what was being done.

As for your art...I don't really know much about it, but I did check out some of the clips that are on the link that you have posted.  Looks interesting.

Mike


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 23, 2004)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> On the subject of training to work against a knife, do not forget to use the real thing. If not, should the day come where you are faced with the real thing you are just as likely to freeze as if you have had no training. The reason for this is no matter how hard or fast your attacker comes at you in training your subconcious will recognise a rubber knife for what it is, a *TOY*.
> 
> Start learning with the knife against the body and get comfortable with this. Then slowly increase the distance. Learn to move so that the body causes the flat of the blade to contact it and not the tip of the knife. The simplist drill for this is to have your partner slowly poke you with the knife. Do this slowly and feel the contact of the knife and the direction of the thrust. Doing this you should then be able to move the bit in contact with the tip of the knife out of the way. Once out of the way it is often simply a case of rotating the body back to apply presure to the flat of the blade. This is a simple principle to use in situations where the weapon is pushed against your body as some sort of threat. You can practice this with wooden or aluminium knives, but if done properly a real knife is the most effective way of learning to move correctly. After all the body will not intentionally tense up and push back against something that will run it through.
> 
> ...


It's a nice idea, but it's like practicing gun take aways with a loaded gun. 1) There's no real point and 2) Someone's going to get unlucky at some point.  You practice this way long enough, you may never get attacked with a knife on the street, but you'll end up with a nasty knife wound in practice.  If you're practicing full power, full speed someone's eventually going to get stabbed.  I've seen guys get injured with the rubber knives.  The idea of practicing with a real knife is nothing more than macho posturing.  If you want to do it, fine, but I think it's doing people a disservice to recommend it.  It only takes one real knife buried accidentally in an eye-socket to convince anyone that it's a bad idea.


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## Bod (Dec 23, 2004)

You cannot ever truly train realistically with a real or a rubber knife.

Training an attack with a real knife assumes that the opponent is not trying to stab you. If he is, then eventually he will.

With a rubber knife you can try really hard to stab your partner.

I used to train standing arm-locks with my flat mate. We did it off of a punch or grab. Every now and then one of us would seruptitiously slip the rubber knife into either hand. We'd then either stab instead of punching or look for an opportunity to stab after the punch.

After some time we had the moves down to such an extent we could avoid the surprise knife attack most of the time. All moves were practiced from the flinch response, and assumed that a surprise attack with a hidden bladed weapon was possible. All moves and footwork were chosen so that if the lock didn't happen it left the defender in a superior or equal position. 

The rubber knife training was essential to honing my move selection to avoid surprise knife attacks. This would have been impossible with a real knife.

I've had knives brandished at me, and have been slashed superficially once. I didn't freeze up. This might not be true of everyone, and specific training to keep fluid in the presence of a real knife might be useful for some. However I feel the use of the rubber knife has given me true respect for the real thing becasue my partner 'stabbed' me too many times in training for me to consider taking on a knifeman without serious reason to.


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## Paul Genge (Dec 23, 2004)

The more a training knife looks and feels like the real thing the more benificial it will be to you.  Obviously there is nothing more real feeling that a real knife.  This sort of training is not for everyone, but should be considered by anyone who wants to train proffesionally.  For millitary personel it is a must.

Where people go wrong is they want to start too fast and jump in the deep end.  Start slowly and take your time. Aim for good timing and fluidity.  The speed of your work should match the speed of your opponents attack.  This applies at full speed as well as slow speed. Start with slow attacks and desensitize yourself to the look and feel of a real knife. 

I agree that for the majority of training a razor sharp edge is unnecessary.  Dull it a little.  Don't worry, it will not stop you getting benifit from the exercise.  For full speed work use a aluminium knife it is far better that a rubber knife.

I have tried the use of marker pens in training and do not rate them.  The main problem is the drill turns into a game of tag.  If you get marked you feel as if you have lost. This is very different to the reality of fighting against a knife weilding attacker.

I have seen many stabbings where the wound had little or no effect on the victims ability to function.  One of these was a carving knife through the back that stopped 1/2 inch from the heart

Knife wounds do not have to be fatal.  If we train that everytime we get cut we have lost and are therefore dead we are setting ourselves up for a big fall.  In the Vietnam war it was noticed that soldiers were dying from gun shot wounds that were far from fatal.  They realised that in the movies that the majority of the soldiers had watched people got shot and die.  As a result of this the soldiers were falling down dead when shot because that is what they had programmed their subconcious to do. In response to this footage of people being shot, but continuing to function were shown to the troops.  This proved effective.

As for pistol defence training goes try to train with the real thing.  It might not have a round in the chamber, but it will still feel and look like the real thing.  That has to be far better that a rubber coated training toy.

Paul Genge
http://www.russinamartialart.org.uk


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## hammer (Dec 25, 2004)

INTERESTING! some great advice in the above posts ,

i am curious for all those that have expressed there techincal knowlegde, how many have actually been confronted with such a situation, and if so what was the result?

My reason for asking is as i read your posts i looked at my forearms , hands ,wrist which only brings back memories of the of the 142 stitches and scaring on my arms, the tendon damage on my right hand, the defensive wounds on my right outer and inner forearm, but this one was the best the cut on my left forearm that is shape in a Z fashion just below my elbow thats from top to the inside slicing the muscle belly so it hung down to my wrist,

Watching the cut reveal it self seeing whats inside , then watching the blood flow from the wounds, all in slow motion as the blood darkens it looks almost black , then the shaking and shivering comes in , you feel cold, light headed then the sever pain as you start to go into shock, 

Only to wake up in hospital the next afternoon, looking like you have been mummyfide, with weeks on discomfort , feeling helpless, then the physiso to be able to straighten your arm, SOME SCAREY ****, only after 3 years was i able to get the feeling back in the top right forearm though still deadend, with muscle twitching in the right forearm , and phantom pain still after years later,

Although im lucky lol.............


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## Paul Genge (Dec 25, 2004)

I have been lucky to date.  I have had two people make threats then come at me reaching for a pretend weapon in an attempt to freak me out.  This did not happen beause I reacted believing the threat to be real. Both situations were resolved to my satisfaction.  

On one occassion I was threatened by an opponent that picked up an iron which he held aloft to throw at me.  The funny thing about this one was that he forgot that he had it in his hand.  When I pointed out to him he should dropped the iron he got confused until I pointed it out to him.  At this point he realised what he was doing and put it down.  

This kind of thing can happen in combat if you are armed.  In one example Michael Ryabko told us how you could be carrying a machine gun, but when an enemy runs at you from nowhere you might forget about it and pull a knife to do the work.  Only when you are finished do you remember it.  I have experienced this kind of thing in combat and can attest to it happening.

On the subject of Michael Ryabko he made the comment about knives that you rarely saw the blade and that you had to move instinctively.  He then showed his heavily scarred forearms to make the point.  Getting cut is a harsh reality of dealing with knives, but what should we do.  

We could bury our heads in the sand and ignore the risk or train with people that have real experience and drills that are proved to increase our abilities to survive these harsh situations. Vladimir Vasiliev and Michael Ryabko are some of these people and I am sure others on this forum can come up with names for other people with good information on this subject.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 28, 2004)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> I have been lucky to date. I have had two people make threats then come at me reaching for a pretend weapon in an attempt to freak me out. This did not happen beause I reacted believing the threat to be real. Both situations were resolved to my satisfaction.
> 
> On one occassion I was threatened by an opponent that picked up an iron which he held aloft to throw at me. The funny thing about this one was that he forgot that he had it in his hand. When I pointed out to him he should dropped the iron he got confused until I pointed it out to him. At this point he realised what he was doing and put it down.
> 
> ...


I agree with your views on realistic training.  It's the assertion about training with real knives I have some issue with.  The fact is, why train to defend ourselves against knife attacks on the street if we are creating an environment in which we are far more likely to become permanently injured or killed in the training room by playing with real knives.  Real knives mean the "attacker" in the simulation is A) More likely to pull his punches, thereby making training LESS realisitic or B) He's at some point going to bury the real knife in your eye.  These are the only two logical conclusions to playing with live blades.  It's much the same as playing with live ammunition, it's only a matter of time before someone is seriously injured or killed.  When you are more likely to get killed by your training partner than by an opponent on the street, you have moved beyond the realm of realitistic training.  Again, I agree training should be as realistic as is safely possible.  I don't believe, however, there is any real use in bringing a live blade or live firearm in to the training environment.  The argument that it is necessary is not that compelling, as simulated weaponry is just as useful and is much safer, allowing the "attacker" to utilize attacks that are full speed and full power, without being impeded with the fear of accidentally skewering his training partner.  The only safe way to train with live blades is to slow down the attacks and limit the variation of the attacks so as to not accidentally stab the defender, and this actually reduces training effectiveness.


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## Simon Curran (Dec 29, 2004)

My answer to this question comes in several parts, so excuse me if I ramble.

Wherever possible I would run/succumb to his requests.
Failing that, I would go all out to cause as much injury to the attacker as possible, all the while concentrating more on causing physical damage to the other guy, than worrying about getting hurt myself, because if that person is intent on killing you, getting hurt would be a more favourable option, however severe the injuries.
Having said this, I have been threatened with a) A broken beer bottle, b) A long screwdriver, and c) A corkscrew (unbelievable but true)
All of the above happened while working in a bar in the centre of London UK
These situations developed as follows;-
a) The guy was drunk and waving the bottle at me, I punched him in the nose, breaking it, he went down, the police were called
b) The guy had just used the screwdriver to break into one of the "one armed bandit" machines and when I shouted at him to F### off he pointed the screwdriver at me from the other side of the bar, whereby I picked up "The Attitude Adjuster" (A Hickory pick-axe handle) from behind the bar and slammed it down onto the oak counter top, at which point he ran out of the door
c) (Not one of my finer moments with the benefit of hindsight) The guy had just gotten a bit of a beating from someone else (for being an a-hole) and when I went over to him to see what was going on he pulled a T-shaped cork screw from his back pocket and threatened to "stick me" I pointed out to him in no uncertain terms that if he was to stick me he had better do it right because otherwise I was going to kill him (the part I am not too proud of), but fortunately by this time another member of staff had gotten hold of a police officer.

Fortunately enough I have had the good fortune to escape all of these situations with my life and limb intact, however these people were only threatening, and as has been stated numerous times before in this thread, if someone really wants to stab you, then you are going to feel the knife before you ever see it.

Anyhow, I'm done rambling now.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 30, 2004)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> My answer to this question comes in several parts, so excuse me if I ramble.
> 
> Wherever possible I would run/succumb to his requests.
> Failing that, I would go all out to cause as much injury to the attacker as possible, all the while concentrating more on causing physical damage to the other guy, than worrying about getting hurt myself, because if that person is intent on killing you, getting hurt would be a more favourable option, however severe the injuries.
> ...


All three instances are what I would term "Defensive aggression".  Each subject was trying to defend something, what he defined as his ego, his little territory or whatever.  He is brandishing the weapon as a ward against you, a way of saying "Stay back, or i'll use this."  Defensive aggression can result in serious injury and is the most common type of aggression we will likely deal with.  It is also the type of aggression we usually train for, as it's the easiest to spot.  We know a loud, abnoxious, threatening drunk with a knife when we see one.

The more problematic type of aggression, and least understood, is Predatory aggression.  This type of aggression, the person isn't using the weapon as a defensive ward, he's using it to attempt to take something away from someone.  Money, power, sex, life, etc.  This person will use the weapon to destroy.  Sometimes this type of aggression shows very few outward signs as predators are good at camoflauging their motives and intentions until it is time to strike.  You may never see the knife until it's brought in to the play.  They will rarely display it in a threatening manner, preferring suprise (Undetected movement for total surprise on the enemy).  

Understanding the two types of aggression and how each manifests itself is important to dealing with these types of situations.


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## Simon Curran (Dec 30, 2004)

Thank you sgtmac,

I think basically you have just elaborated what I was thinking myself, but could not put into words.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 1, 2005)

Let's see,


 How about draw my legally concealed .45 ACP or 9MM pistol and center punch him two or 4 times. Seriously, a knife qualifies as a deadly weapon and it's been well documented that a fit man can cover 21 feet and deliver a deadly blow in 2.1 seconds. If he's that close and attacking it's time to open fire. If he get's to me after taking "x" number of rounds I'll revert to JKD concepts.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 3, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> Let's see,
> 
> 
> How about draw my legally concealed .45 ACP or 9MM pistol and center punch him two or 4 times. Seriously, a knife qualifies as a deadly weapon and it's been well documented that a fit man can cover 21 feet and deliver a deadly blow in 2.1 seconds. If he's that close and attacking it's time to open fire. If he get's to me after taking "x" number of rounds I'll revert to JKD concepts.


You might want to keep in mind that he may deploy that knife with stealth and you'll be a heck of a lot closer than 21 feet when you are aware he has it. Far too close to draw your weapon before he can cause critical injuries to you. I've shown that to my patrol officers time after time. In a training scenerio I did with my officers just last night, I was 10 feet from an officer who was giving me verbal commands. I actually drew the knife, and was striking him before he ever cleared leather. What's worse, when he did get the gun out of his holster, I was able to push the gun off line with my left hand and prevented him from being able to "shoot" me with it while I continued stabbing him with the rubber knife. That was a situation where it should have been clear that I very well likely might have had a knife, and the reactionary gap did not allow him sufficient time to bring his holstered sidearm to bear. His response should have been to have parried the knife and push me away, and then drawn the gun. If you carry a gun for self-defense, you should not count on being able to use it immediately against all knife attackers. If they attack in stealth, you may not have time to draw your firearm. You should practice counter-mearsures, such as pushing the blade arm and throwing the attacker off balance, and then drawing your firearm and delivering lethal force. You may have to defend yourself hand to hand in order to draw your gun. If you don't believe me, use a simulated gun and a simulated knife and play this scenerio through. See how many times you get stabbed with the simulated knife without every getting the gun out. You'll be amazed.


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## MJS (Jan 3, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> You might want to keep in mind that he may deploy that knife with stealth and you'll be a heck of a lot closer than 21 feet when you are aware he has it. Far too close to draw your weapon before he can cause critical injuries to you. I've shown that to my patrol officers time after time. In a training scenerio I did with my officers just last night, I was 10 feet from an officer who was giving me verbal commands. I actually drew the knife, and was striking him before he ever cleared leather. What's worse, when he did get the gun out of his holster, I was able to push the gun off line with my left hand and prevented him from being able to "shoot" me with it while I continued stabbing him with the rubber knife. That was a situation where it should have been clear that I very well likely might have had a knife, and the reactionary gap did not allow him sufficient time to bring his holstered sidearm to bear. His response should have been to have parried the knife and push me away, and then drawn the gun. If you carry a gun for self-defense, you should not count on being able to use it immediately against all knife attackers. If they attack in stealth, you may not have time to draw your firearm. You should practice counter-mearsures, such as pushing the blade arm and throwing the attacker off balance, and then drawing your firearm and delivering lethal force. You may have to defend yourself hand to hand in order to draw your gun. If you don't believe me, use a simulated gun and a simulated knife and play this scenerio through. See how many times you get stabbed with the simulated knife without every getting the gun out. You'll be amazed.



Good points!  I can't recall if there was a thread about this on here, but I do know that I have had this very discussion with people on another forum.  The thread was actually titled "Gun vs. Knife" and was comparing the 2 for SD.  However, it did drift into a debate of "Can the gun be drawn before the guy with the knife closes?"  Needless to say, it was a very lengthy debate.

Not sure if anyone recalls seeing the video "Surviving Edged Weapons", but IMO, it certainly opened my eyes to just how dangerous the knife can be.  It also proved that the knife can be used from a variety of postions, where the gun has to be pointed at the target before it can be used.

Mike


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 6, 2005)

sgtmac,

Message received and agreed to. My first reaction at point blank range would be avoidance and or channeling the attack, or counter attacking with something like a very nasty straight line kick, etc.. (better to have your leg cut than your upper body, and if you're fast and powerful enough with that or another suitable technique you may put them down for a few seconds and gain time to draw, and not take a cut) BTW I practice that kick with heavy bags and a "Bob" dummy fully loaded with water. I can easily blow "Bob" over and the full move-to-Bob-on-the-floor takes less than 1 second. It does help to be psyched-up.

We'll also agree, I bet, that awareness is the very first weapon we need to hone. If you see the attack coming through sensitivity/intuition, you will beat that knife weilding attacker to the "draw". Again, if they get to me before or after the draw, that's when JKD concepts/techniques have to be automatic.. If you stop to think you've already failed.

PS: The problem training for this type of response (the explosive straight kick) is that you cannot fully implement it without causing severe internal injuries to your training partner.. the same training problem we JKD type people face with most of our effective techniques. Your training officer could not have used this to counter you without mangling his superior, I'm sure it would not go over well 

Possibly substituting a Jeet Tek would suffice for training, along with the heavy bag/Bob work..?


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## Paul Genge (Jan 17, 2005)

Sgt Mac,

I have been training with real knives for years and also teach small classes in the same vain. To date there has been nothing worse than a slight scratch in the way of injury.  A lot of this is down to the speed of training and the drills used. I

The common misconception is that the faster you train the more you learn.  This is incorrect.  Working against fast, fully committed and unrehearsed attacks are essential, but it is purely presure testing.  For this kind of drill it is preferable to use an aluminium knife, because otherwise your attacker will hold back due to not wanting to hurt you.  Despite this the training knife should look and feel as much as the real thing.  Obviously wood and rubber knives are too far from the mark in weight, texture and appearence.

For skill development work slow and with the real thing.  This is particularly important where learning to work against the blade of the knife or where it is held against your bod. This is because your body will react differently to the feel of a weapon that is a real threat.

For slow training it is important to follow some basic concepts.  First do not try to do anything slowly that would be physically impossible at speed.  This is particularly important if you are using changes of direcion that defy the laws of physics or biomechanics when performed at full speed.  Second work at the speed of the attack.  If you practice working at full speed when the attack is slow, what would you have in reserve for a fast attack?

Training in this manner limits the risks of working with a real knife to what I feel are exceptable levels.  Nothing is fool proof, but the risk of reacting inappropriately to a knife, caused by training with a toy, is not acceptable to me. 

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 18, 2005)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> Sgt Mac,
> 
> I have been training with real knives for years and also teach small classes in the same vain. To date there has been nothing worse than a slight scratch in the way of injury. A lot of this is down to the speed of training and the drills used. I
> 
> ...


While I respect your opinion on the matter, I still am not convinced that there is a benefit to working with live steel that makes it worth the risks. If it works for you and those you work with to do this, fine, but it has been my experience that there is a "mystique" that comes with working with live blades and other types of training that seems to be done for reasons other than improving overall training. I don't say this as a slight to you, as you obviously know what you are doing. I merely wish to point out the dangers involved to those who would emulate this type of training. When you are talking about going full speed, you of course mean the phase of training where you are learning the techniques. There's no reason to have a live blade in this part of the training as we aren't putting stress on anyone. It's the full speed portion of the training that we want to make as realistic as possible, and this would be the portion you would use a live blade if that was your goal. Again, I understand your point of view, and I can respect your courage in your willingness to train that way, I just don't think it's the best type of training for the vast majority of people out there. It seems to be a cure more dangerous than the disease. If the goal of training knife defense is to improve your odd's of avoiding being stabbed, it fails as training since you've actually increased your odds of getting stabbed, though by your training partner not by a stranger. A stab wound is a stab wound, by malice or by accident. I'll stick to rubber and aluminum (I hate the sight of blood, especially mine) as I know if we trained with real knives, several people would have been ran through in the last training session.  I'll give you props, though, if you train full speed with live steel, you're more man than me.


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## Paul Genge (Jan 19, 2005)

Sgt Mac,




> The common misconception is that the faster you train the more you learn. This is incorrect. Working against fast, fully committed and unrehearsed attacks are essential, but it is purely presure testing. For this kind of drill it is preferable to use an aluminium knife, because otherwise your attacker will hold back due to not wanting to hurt you. Despite this the training knife should look and feel as much as the real thing. Obviously wood and rubber knives are too far from the mark in weight, texture and appearence.


As you can see from this part of my last post we are in agreement about using real blades for presure testing.  Where we disagree is in using a real blade for slow training drills.  Obviously what one person finds slow will be too fast for others, but this will change as their experience and skill increases.  We will probably never fully agree with each other on this point, but that is the joy of debating subjects on forums.  At least it has been nice and civil.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 21, 2005)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> Sgt Mac,
> 
> 
> As you can see from this part of my last post we are in agreement about using real blades for presure testing. Where we disagree is in using a real blade for slow training drills. Obviously what one person finds slow will be too fast for others, but this will change as their experience and skill increases. We will probably never fully agree with each other on this point, but that is the joy of debating subjects on forums. At least it has been nice and civil.
> ...


No reason for it not to be civil.  You obviously know what you're talking about, we just disagree on this one point of training doctrine.  Of course, that's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors, because no one flavor works for everyone.


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## JAMJTX (Jan 29, 2005)

If I really thought the guy was going to slit my throat, then yes I would fight back.  But the techniques you see in the movies, and in a lot of martial arts schools will get you killed.
In a situation where they already have a hold on you and the knife is already at your throat, you will get cut.  The question is just how bad.  You don't necessarily have to die.  But these techniques can not be shown in a forum like this.
If I thought all the guy wanted was a wallet or something and I was convinced he did not intend to cut me, I probably would not fight back.
If he pulled the knife on me and said "get in the trunk" then the fight happens there.
If it was a hostage situation like he were using me for a shield or to get something, the fight would happen eventually but I would try and wait for an opening.  Again that is only if he were serious about cutting me.


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## Karazenpo (Feb 4, 2005)

I just got through reading all the posts under this topic. I've been a police officer since 1977, imho, I say when it comes to edged weapons and gun disarming, please listen to law enforcement personel and reality based instructors. As far as LEO's go, remember, they learn and teach this stuff not for a belt, not for a demo, not for a trophy but to go home alive at the end of their tour of duty. They cannot go on what might work, they have to have something that has a decent probability of working under high stress situations. What they learn is based on real life survivors of edged weapons and those not so lucky too. As what was said in some of the above posts, learn conceptually rather than memorizing a long string of techniques that will do nothing more than get you killed. Yes, many things can work against a knife per se, ex. the punch in the nose, but that doesn't neccessarily qualify it as a proper method of defense against a blade especially against a worthy opponent. Just my 2 cents. Great job to the Leo's and reality based trainers, you guys are right on the money!


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## Danjo (Feb 12, 2005)

The question in the topic line implies a choice. If I had a legitimate choice about whether to fight a knifeman, the answer would be "No." But then, that would go for anyone in any fight. Not given a choice, the answer also seems axiomatic, "What choice would I have?" To curl up and die? Of course I'd fight.


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## sdizier (Feb 21, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> The question in the topic line implies a choice. If I had a legitimate choice about whether to fight a knifeman, the answer would be "No." But then, that would go for anyone in any fight. Not given a choice, the answer also seems axiomatic, "What choice would I have?" To curl up and die? Of course I'd fight.


Good answer, I agree


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 23, 2005)

Disco said:
			
		

> I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin.
> 
> I can't help but honestly question that statement........ I can understand an exception to the rule, but many men that can control a groin hit? How many times have we all seen trained boxers get a low blow and their wearing protection, get the fight stopped so they can recover. Same for UFC, Pride, K-1 and so on. :btg:


I know several guys who have been on PCP who could handle getting their testicles blown off and keep coming.  Sure, groin hits hurt, but it's still pain compliance.  With pain compliance always comes an assumption.  The only techniques to rely on under these circumstances are ones that cause disruption of the persons ability to function, not his will.  Something that makes it structural impossible for the person to operate.


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## PragmaticMartialArtist (Feb 28, 2005)

Yes and no.   If the knifeman/woman (he from hereon) wants something, I will just give it, be it my wallet, shoes, shirt etc.   If he is going to kill me, slash/stab me then yes.  

How do you fight? With 110% commitment, no posturing, no bouncing, no jabbing, just do it.  My attitude will be to kill him with my bear hands, because if I don't he will kill me and he has the distinct advantage.  Whatever martial art is your base, commitment is necessary.


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## Thunderbolt (Mar 7, 2005)

i don't know what i'm about to say was covered in this thread BUT here it goes.

would i fight back against a knifeman.? it depends on my SD skills.

if somebody come up to you with a knife, it's really too late for you to do anything. If a bad guy wants to kill you, he won't tell you to stand still or he will cut your throat. 

Just do whatever he said and hopefully, everything is OK in the end.

if you want to fight, fight with all your hearts and you know that you try your best to defend yourself. It's all about the mind. Stay calm!

people will die 1 way or another right.? nobody lives forever.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 7, 2005)

I like the way Richard Pryor said it.


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## mj-hi-yah (Mar 7, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I like the way Richard Pryor said it.


If it's something that is appropriate to post just what was that?


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 7, 2005)

Yeah, trying to folllow the forum guidelines.....but it was about fighitng and running......get the video....makes you laugh and wonder.....if you are "ito" this kind of humor...


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## Loki (Mar 23, 2005)

Kane said:
			
		

> Okay, you see it in Martial Art movies all the time. A bad guy grabs a knife or Chinese Broadsword and grabs from behind and says "If you move I will slit your throat!" The hero Martial Artists then does a back kick to the groin, elbow to the head, snapemare the man, ect. However, would these attacks work in real life.
> 
> Would a good kick to the groin really stun a dude with a knife making enough time to run or fight back? I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin. Would be long enough to escape a stab or slit to the throat?
> 
> ...


It depends on what he wants. Mugger? Give him the money and don't risk dying. Kidnapper? Fight back. There's a technique where, due to the trickiness of dealing with a knife against the throat from behind, the best thing one can do is pull the knife away from you by the blade. Painful, but beats getting killed.

If you can run, it's better. Why take the chance? If you can't, what real choice do you have? 

The key is who your opponent is. Some dumb 13 year-old kid with a bloated ego? Disarm him and let him do the walking away. Trained knife fighter? Run, Loak. (Oobi-Doob, you're still here?)

~ Loki


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## arnisador (Mar 23, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Heck yeah, I'm going to run.  I'll use empty hand skills only if running isn't an option.



Put me down for running too. A knife is too dangerous.


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## Kamaria Annina (Mar 24, 2005)

Now that I think of it, depending on the person, a back kick would be a very powerful kick.  As I think of it, if you had a good back kick, hopefully one would be able to knock off their balance some, and make a run for it.

 However, if someone tried to slash me with their knife, I would by all means try to deflect it, and then gain control of their arms so they could not harm me.  If I had to, I would possibly break the elbow in a down ward hold.


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## Eldritch Knight (Mar 24, 2005)

Back kick is a very useful attack, as it can be thrown to strike up from under the opponent's defense, sometimes catching them off guard, however, the sheer range of technique makes it a bit difficult in close-quarters. This is even more evident in the more likely scenario of an assailant with their knife against your throat, especially if they have you in a mock-sleeper hold. From that position, I'd be hesitant to try anything considering how gravely dangerous the situation is.


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## Nor (Apr 8, 2005)

No Unless I  Could Not Get Away Hey Thats Why We Practice Real Knife Disarms Right


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 8, 2005)

Kamaria Annina said:
			
		

> Now that I think of it, depending on the person, a back kick would be a very powerful kick. As I think of it, if you had a good back kick, hopefully one would be able to knock off their balance some, and make a run for it.
> 
> However, if someone tried to slash me with their knife, I would by all means try to deflect it, and then gain control of their arms so they could not harm me. If I had to, I would possibly break the elbow in a down ward hold.


Hmnnn, ever been faced with this in actual confrontation?

Also, many times someone with a knife, has a "back-up"


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## Gray Phoenix (Apr 8, 2005)

The only way to decide to fight or flight in the face of non bullet spewing weapon would be to look at the individual situation. If I somehow screw up enough to find a knife at my throat, I will probably anchor the arm and perform one of several escapes. IF the distance to the attacker is greater than that, (it should be so long as I can use my eyes), I may run. If my fiance is standing next to me in a skirt and heels, she probably could nt run, so my only option is to engage and take him out. 

So the end answer is: yes Id fight if I had to, but I would rather not.


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## 47MartialMan (Apr 8, 2005)

Gray Phoenix said:
			
		

> The only way to decide to fight or flight in the face of non bullet spewing weapon would be to look at the individual situation. If I somehow screw up enough to find a knife at my throat, I will probably anchor the arm and perform one of several escapes. IF the distance to the attacker is greater than that, (it should be so long as I can use my eyes), I may run. If my fiance is standing next to me in a skirt and heels, she probably could nt run, so my only option is to engage and take him out.
> 
> So the end answer is: yes Id fight if I had to, but I would rather not.


Very nicely stated.

_If my fiance is standing next to me in a skirt and heels, she probably could nt run, so my only option is to engage and take him out._ 
This had happened to me, around the late 70's. But he (the mugger) held the knife to *her* throat. So I had to comply and give him my wallet. Luckily so, because he ran around a corner and we saw him get together with an accomplice. (I state _luckily_ because no matter if the knife was on me and I had defended myself, the accomplice could have came in without me knowing and worse-injure my fiance')

This was a learning experience that I had added to my self defense classes.
Furthermore, this situation does not end there. Something else, per another dramatic situation came out of it.


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## rmcpeek (Apr 25, 2005)

I've practiced and taught many knife techniques. The best advice is, if you can, run. There is no shame in getting away to safety.

If, on the other hand, you have absolutely no choice, then and only then would I personally take on the attacker.

The number one rule when fighting someone with a knife is, "You're gonna get cut".


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## arnisador (May 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Also, many times someone with a knife, has a "back-up"


 I always emphasize this...if you were going out to commit a crime using a weapon, wouldn't _you_ take a back-up?

 The attacker will surely have a back-up weapon. Be careful!


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## 47MartialMan (May 10, 2005)

rmcpeek said:
			
		

> I've practiced and taught many knife techniques. The best advice is, if you can, run. There is no shame in getting away to safety.
> 
> If, on the other hand, you have absolutely no choice, then and only then would I personally take on the attacker.
> 
> The number one rule when fighting someone with a knife is, "You're gonna get cut".


With a knife attacker, there is usually verbal or circumstances leading to the attack. It is on rare occasions (esp where I had resided) that someone will just "out-of-the-blue" attack with a knife.


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## arnisador (Nov 17, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> With a knife attacker, there is usually verbal or circumstances leading to the attack. It is on rare occasions (esp where I had resided) that someone will just "out-of-the-blue" attack with a knife.



True. Yet...it happens. One must be prepared for that too! It depends whetehr the attacker just wants your cash, or--as in a prison envirnoment--truly wants to hurt you.


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## samurai69 (Nov 17, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> i question the validity of this statement...but there is some truth to what he says...i highly doubt the ability of anyone to control a groin shot...to avoid it...yes...guys are trained from birth to protect that area..and we can cross our legs at the speed of light to avoid taking a shot there...
> 
> however...in a real life fight situation...your body goes into fight or flight response as we all know...but one of the things the body does is the scrotum pulls up to help protect the testicles...in this position...if you get kicked in the groin...the testicles may just get kicked up into the body...which hurts...but isn't nearly as debilatating as a normal groin shot...not to mention the effects of adrenaline overriding pain....
> 
> ...


 
When i was in my teens i was involved in a fight, 1/2 way through i was grabbed by his 2 mates and held back whilst being kicked in the groin 4 or 5 times......the pain was imense, but with the adrenalin working over time i managed to fight them off for about 10 more minutes......then the pain kicked in and i collapsed...luckily no surgery was needed, but i was bruised for a week or so........a groin attack is used effectively only if its part of a more thorough attack/defence


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## Bigshadow (Nov 17, 2005)

Kane said:
			
		

> However, would these attacks work in real life.




IMHO, No!





			
				Kane said:
			
		

> Would a good kick to the groin really stun a dude with a knife making enough time to run or fight back? I know many men that can control themselves when they get kicked in the groin. Would be long enough to escape a stab or slit to the throat?




IMHO, Don't count on it, probably an emphatic no!






			
				Kane said:
			
		

> How about an elbow to the head, would you do it?




No, I wouldn't. That is too much movement. The throat would be slit before you made contact. If the attacker was committed of course.



			
				Kane said:
			
		

> So do you think it would be better to do with the man says if he caught you blind-eyed with a knife?




IMHO, you have a 50/50 chance. However, I am inclined to not trust them, since, they are being less than trustworthy attacking you. So you have no assurances that the attacker still won't cut your throat even if you comply.





			
				Kane said:
			
		

> How about fighting a knifeman? Do you think disarming techniques are practical or is it better to run?


It all depends on the situation. The main thing is to immediately destroy their balance, spinal alignment, and body structure while not getting cut. We have done a lot of unarmed against knife attack (knife to the throat, etc). There are many things to do, but the biggest thing is to not telegraph your intentions.



			
				Kane said:
			
		

> What do you think about all of this?


I think taking a scene from the movies is well sort of silly. It is difficult to say what I would do, it all depends on the situation. In some situations, running might be the best option. But I certainly don't think running is an option if the knife is against your throat, so I think either you must comply or do something or a combination of both.


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