# Reputation gone?



## Sapper6

just got on and noticed no one's reputation is visible...it's all gone.  what's up?  it didn't go away did it?


----------



## jfarnsworth

It was there this morning.  :idunno:


----------



## mantis

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> It was there this morning.  :idunno:


 i was wondering about that too
 mine's gone
 im glad it is though
 was horrible! haha


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The Reputation system has been temporarily disabled due to a few bad apples abusing it. While most of our members used it responsibly and as intended, a few have been using it to insult, demean, belittle and otherwise abuse it. 

In addition to the abuse, the constant complaints, several bordering on whining from a few individuals guilty of the same abuse they complain about has gotten tiring.

As a result, I have taken that feature off line while I consider options.

They are:
- Remove the system completely
- Force commenter ID (meaning your name will be visible)
- Allow only Positive Rep.
- Allow anyone positive rep, but only supporting members or above can neg-rep.
- Disallowing comments all together. Just + or -

The system was intended to be something fun, a nice way to reward those who contribute and nudge those who don't. Instead, it's been a headache. I will be looking into the matter this week and seeing what I can do to possibly return this feature to use, while minimizing abuse and headaches.

Thank you.


----------



## shesulsa

I suppose that since I had the highest rep on the board, anything I say will be considered suspect.  But I'm going to say it anyway.

 I'm wondering why the "few bad apples" can't just be dealt with on an individual level?  If most of us are adult enough to handle the throes and woes of the rep point system, why do we all need to suffer?  I can understand if most of the members had problems with it, but ... "a few bad apples?"

 Though the alternatives you put forth are worth consideration, I can't help but think of watching those with relatively high post counts and low rep ... it speaks for itself, likewise those with low post count having high rep.  No system can EVER be perfect and if some of us are that hung up on repuation, then those are the people who seriously need to disable it.

 Just my .02


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I'm hoping this is temporary. I'm in the middle of preparing for some major board upgrades. MT is last on the list as it's the heaviest modified. There are supposed to be some improvements to the system, so we will see.


----------



## dubljay

In my not so humble opinion I think that the removal of the rep system will decrease the amount of bickering that occasionally flares up due to dings.  

 After I became a supporting member I dissabled rep points for myself because I wanted people to confront me if I gave offense.  I only enabled rep points after being asked to be a moderator because I felt that it was a neutral method of approaching me.  

 I feel that the removal of the rep system will help keep personal ideological differences between members off the forums and in priviate, either via PM or email or instant messenger.  I have always maintained a public email address and instant messager screen names so that if someone felt the need they could speak with me off MartialTalk.  In fact I encourage anyone to contact me for any reason, whether it be to air a grevence or to simply chat.

 The missuse of the rep system is rather sad, and does not give the feel of a 'Friendly discussion about the martial arts'.  

 Again in my not so humble opinion if you find something that bothers you, discuss it, don't provoke a conflict, if discussion fails simply ignore the situation or the person (there is an ignore feature).  If it can't be ignored and discussion is not working then bring it to the staff that's why we are here.

 [font=helvetica, arial, verdana, sans serif][font=helvetica, arial, verdana, sans serif]"The ultimate aim of karate lies not in victory or defeat but in the perfection of the character of its participants." -- Gichin Funakoshi[/font][/font]


----------



## Lisa

Ya know the old saying about how you can't make everybody happy all of the time?  What about the one about the squeeky wheel getting the grease?  Well that will be very true in this case regardless of weather the rep system is on or off.  People are going to complain when it is on and people are going to complain to you for turning it off and wonder why all of a sudden it is being done so.  If a few bad apples are going to win, that is really sad.  I understand that it has to be a headache, and I can only imagine how absolutely frustrating and miserable it must be to constantly be inundated with complaints but... something that, like you said, should be fun and the majority of us took it as such, should not be cancelled because of them.

I say make it mandatory to put your name on your reps.  I think the rep system is good for the most part.  Pos rep encourages newbies to participate and neg reps, if used properly, can make one reflect on their posts, hopefully growing as a person, otherwise it weeds out the trolls.

Bob, I truly hope you reconsider.

just another .02 in the pile.

Lisa


----------



## shesulsa

dubljay said:
			
		

> I feel that the removal of the rep system will help keep personal ideological differences between members off the forums and in priviate, either via PM or email or instant messenger.


 I hope for the staff's sake that you're correct. I think what may actually happen is posts will go up as will traffic and we'll see more single-line posts such as "I agree." or "That's just not right." or "**** you, you ****ing *****" which would cause a moderation nightmare, of course.


----------



## Andrew Green

> - Remove the system completely


 Nah, bending over for troublemakers is not the way to go



> - Force commenter ID (meaning your name will be visible)


 Umm, I'm torn, I like the annonymity for the most part.  when giving +/-.  Otherwise you'll just get back and forth stuff.



> - Allow only Positive Rep.


 Idiots need to be informed of there being idiots   I think the rep system and the negatives that can come are as important as the positives, as it makes people think twice about what they are posting (Granted it doesn't work too well on me...)



> - Allow anyone positive rep, but only supporting members or above can neg-rep


 .

 Same as above, negative is just as important.



> - Disallowing comments all together. Just + or -


 That one I like.  Maybe some balance as well.  Some people seem to have too much influence.  Maybe put a cap on how much people can give, or reduce how much they give if they keep giving to the same person.

 So if someone gives 10, next time they would give 5 or something, going down each time.  This would prevent one or two people from heavily influencing someone.

 Restore the ability to give to the same person over time instead of all at once.  So after 10 days they can give 50%, after 20 days 75%, 30-days 100%...  Might be a lot of work to implement though...

 Maybe different times for different membership levels?  Mods can go again after 10 days and 10 people, supporting members 15, regular 20?


 Personally I have doubts about the value of the system, but I think if it does get removed it shouldn't be because a few people are spoiling it.


----------



## Sapper6

i'd hate to see it go away.  i'm with Shesulsa here: why "punish" all for the acts of a few?  the rep system was a unique way to gauge forum contribution and i'd hate to see it removed because of childish antics.

removing the system is not going to prevent arguments, decrease bickering, etc.  it will only take up a different form, and that form will most likely not be limited to PM, IM, or other "offline" methods.  the frustration that is usually vented via negative dings will now take place in topic discussion, which only makes things worse.

the rep system was fair.  i would like to see it reinstated.  to the people who whine about anonymous neg rep, suck it up and stop being a wuss.  such is apart of the game.  we've all gotten anonymous dings at one time or another and i've only seen a select few actually cry about it.

reinstate the feature and punish those who abuse it, period.

how about a poll?  i know this isn't a democraticly run forum.  it's yours Bob, do with it what you wish.  i just wouldn't want to see a good feature flushed because of idiocy, immaturity, and BS.


----------



## shesulsa

Sapper, I was gonna rep you for that post, but ... well, you know .... :ultracool


----------



## Sapper6

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Sapper, I was gonna rep you for that post, but ... well, you know .... :ultracool



same here.  

i guess we'll have to be content with virtual rep. :ultracool


----------



## Andrew Green

One more thought that might be easier to implement:

 How about setting up a new user group for people allowed to give rep?  Only put people in it that are not likely to abuse it and remove immediately if they do.  This could be for giving positive and negative.

 Supporting members, mentors, mods, and anyone else deemed "trustworthy".


----------



## Lisa

Shesulsa said:
			
		

> Sapper, I was gonna rep you for that post, but ... well, you know ....






			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> same here.
> 
> i guess we'll have to be content with virtual rep. :ultracool



see the love?  feel the love?  

The reputation abuse should be dealt with on an individual basis just like on the board.  You abuse the rules and regulations, you get your ability to rep someone taken away.  Plain and simple.


----------



## mantis

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The Reputation system has been temporarily disabled due to a few bad apples abusing it. While most of our members used it responsibly and as intended, a few have been using it to insult, demean, belittle and otherwise abuse it.
> 
> In addition to the abuse, the constant complaints, several bordering on whining from a few individuals guilty of the same abuse they complain about has gotten tiring.
> 
> As a result, I have taken that feature off line while I consider options.
> 
> They are:
> - Remove the system completely
> - Force commenter ID (meaning your name will be visible)
> - Allow only Positive Rep.
> - Allow anyone positive rep, but only supporting members or above can neg-rep.
> - Disallowing comments all together. Just + or -
> 
> The system was intended to be something fun, a nice way to reward those who contribute and nudge those who don't. Instead, it's been a headache. I will be looking into the matter this week and seeing what I can do to possibly return this feature to use, while minimizing abuse and headaches.
> 
> Thank you.


 off topic
 just wondering (you probably wont answer, but why not give it a try)
 how do enable/disable features? do you have like a meta-data table that controls access? juz wondering


----------



## dubljay

mantis said:
			
		

> off topic
> just wondering (you probably wont answer, but why not give it a try)
> how do enable/disable features? do you have like a meta-data table that controls access? juz wondering


 No worries about off topic.  There is a supporting member featuer at a cost of $12 per year that goes to help cover the costs of running the forum.  One of the benifits of being a supporting member was (is) the ability to turn rep points on and off.  There are many other benifits of becoming a supporting member that are outlined here.


----------



## mantis

dubljay said:
			
		

> No worries about off topic. There is a supporting member featuer at a cost of $12 per year that goes to help cover the costs of running the forum. One of the benifits of being a supporting member was (is) the ability to turn rep points on and off. There are many other benifits of becoming a supporting member that are outlined here.


 oh
 my question is beyond that
 i was actually asking from a technical perspective. I do programming too, so i was wondering about the interface between the backend the php... 
 and thats why its way off topic! haha
 thank you though


----------



## arnisador

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I hope for the staff's sake that you're correct. I think what may actually happen is posts will go up as will traffic and we'll see more single-line posts such as "I agree." or "That's just not right." or "**** you, you ****ing *****" which would cause a moderation nightmare, of course.


 I think that there'll be a little of that, but then things will settle back down. We'll also lose the plethora of posts wherein someone replies in-thread to an anonymous ding, starting a chorus of sympathy.

 I've gotten the odd ding and it's occasionally affected my posts. But frankly, many people seem to use it as a quick version of a PM--at least with me. This includes not just the "I agree" lines but much more to the point the actual personal messages that should've been sent by PM. It functioned as PM wit the possibility of omitting the name.

 People--myself included--would occasionally use it to send messages that would be unpopular if posted, but again, this just duplicates the PM system, with anonymity. I like the anonymity option--it forces the person to think about the _message_ rather than the _messenger_. I suspect that some of the complaints were valid complaints of harassment and some were complaints about being exposed to a different point of view without having someone to argue it with!

 I think on balance you'll see less grief without it. By the way, you and I are now tied for most rep.!


----------



## Andrew Green

I'd guess there is a Admin control panel that controls what features are on and off as well as all the settings related to them 

 Anyways, if you are curious get your computer running Apache, MySQL and PHP, download and install Simple Machines or PHPBB and play with it.  Source is available to you as both are written in php. 

 There are other forums you can download, but those are two of the better free ones.


----------



## arnisador

Lisa said:
			
		

> People are going to complain when it is on and people are going to complain to you for turning it off and wonder why all of a sudden it is being done so.


 Yes, if it stays off then soon they'll forget about the rep. option, and new users won't know. There'll be fewer complaints with it gone.



> If a few bad apples are going to win, that is really sad.


 Is it clear than anyone has won? 



> Pos rep encourages newbies to participate and neg reps, if used properly, can make one reflect on their posts, hopefully growing as a person, otherwise it weeds out the trolls.


 I agree--though I think the trolls get weeded out anyway. Still, it can also happen that someone gets bad rep. and sees no way out of that and hardens his or her position. Still, I think you're right that it can be a real force for improvement.

 Everyone tries to get their post count up. Look at the threads, long since moved to the UB&G, of the "change a letter" form that say in the first post "Let's start a thread to keep our post counts up!" Then rep. comes in and people want to maximize that too. It distracts from solid posting, in a lot of ways, I think. Start a metric, people will focus on maximizing it. Is that good?


----------



## arnisador

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> How about setting up a new user group for people allowed to give rep? Only put people in it that are not likely to abuse it and remove immediately if they do. This could be for giving positive and negative.
> 
> Supporting members, mentors, mods, and anyone else deemed "trustworthy".


 Wow, what a nightmare this would be--selecting (and deselecting) a MartialTalk nobility. I shudder to think about the whining--"Why does _he_ get to give rep. but _I_ don't?" It'd be much worse than rep. itself. What you say if the consensus of the staff is that you were--to use your word--_un_trustworthy? It'd cause a lot of hard feelings.

 MartialTalk has almost as many gradations of memberships as it has members already: Members, Supporting Members, Mentors, Advisors, half a dozen or more flavors of mods and admins...stop the madness!


----------



## arnisador

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I'd guess there is a Admin control panel that controls what features are on and off as well as all the settings related to them
> 
> Anyways, if you are curious get your computer running Apache, MySQL and PHP, download and install Simple Machines or PHPBB and play with it. Source is available to you as both are written in php.
> 
> There are other forums you can download, but those are two of the better free ones.


  Check out www.vbulletin.com and www.vbulletin.org (and note that the feature under discussion is often referred to as karma).


----------



## Bob Hubbard

mantis said:
			
		

> oh
> my question is beyond that
> i was actually asking from a technical perspective. I do programming too, so i was wondering about the interface between the backend the php...
> and thats why its way off topic! haha
> thank you though


 Mantis,
  vB is has a mysql backend. You can find a ton of intel out at vbulletin.com.
Short answer, there is a back end control panel, plus all of the raw database is accessable through phpmyadmin.


----------



## dubljay

mantis said:
			
		

> oh
> my question is beyond that
> i was actually asking from a technical perspective. I do programming too, so i was wondering about the interface between the backend the php...
> and thats why its way off topic! haha
> thank you though


 
 haha my appologies mantis, I am not all together at the moment.  I am hopped up on cold pills and badly dehydrated.  Some how I've managed to get one helluva flu virus 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.  I should have read your post more carefully.  Yay for psudeophedrine hyrdrochloride! (ok I'm gonna go pass out now)


----------



## Andrew Green

arnisador said:
			
		

> Wow, what a nightmare this would be--selecting (and deselecting) a MartialTalk nobility. I shudder to think about the whining--"Why does _he_ get to give rep. but _I_ don't?" It'd be much worse than rep. itself. What you say if the consensus of the staff is that you were--to use your word--_un_trustworthy? It'd cause a lot of hard feelings.


 No, that's not what I mean, basically give it to all the groups above member, possibly add another step on the way to mentor that only gets ability to influence rep as a new ability.

 But if it is going to happen for giving negative, I think it should happen for positive as well.

 Not giving it to 90% of the active members....  just a handful.

 But I think the best option is one of two things:

 Complete annonymity, no comments, no names, don't point it to threads.  Just a total and the squares.  If you don't know who, what, where or why you can't complain about it.  Might also halp to run a check for people repeatidly hitting the same person in there.

 or 

 No annonymity, names get posted next to comments.  Keep things honest.

 Any drastic change to how it is distributed and by who is going to unbalance what has already been done.  If all of a sudden there is 1/4 of the rep being given newbies are going to find it near impossible to catch up.



> Start a metric, people will focus on maximizing it. Is that good?


 Depends on the metric.

 If it encourages good thought out posts, maybe posting techniques with pictures, and things that make the board a good place to go then yes.

 If it encourages posting nonsense just for increasing post count then no.


----------



## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The Reputation system has been temporarily disabled due to a few bad apples abusing it. While most of our members used it responsibly and as intended, a few have been using it to insult, demean, belittle and otherwise abuse it.


 Is this stuff that would have been inappropriate if posted also, or stuff that might have been OK if put up for open debate but not OK anonymously? I ask because I assume that flat-out slurs against a person or group would get action taken against the user in any event.



> In addition to the abuse, the constant complaints, several bordering on whining from a few individuals guilty of the same abuse they complain about has gotten tiring.


 I certainly grew tired of the many in-the-forum complaints about these behind-the-scenes battles. Yet, I also found it useful, for many of the reasons given here already.



> They are:
> - Remove the system completely
> - Force commenter ID (meaning your name will be visible)
> - Allow only Positive Rep.
> - Allow anyone positive rep, but only supporting members or above can neg-rep.
> - Disallowing comments all together. Just + or -


 If anonymity is removed, I don't see much value to it. It is then just a PM that also gives a person a nudge in the perceived 'race' to get more more more green. Allowing only pos. rep. makes the racing aspect worse, to my mind.

 Limiting those who can give neg. rep. makes some sense, but then in addition to the jealousy factor, whenever a person gets neg. rep. he or she will know which 'class' of people to blame. If neg. rep. is limited to mods./admins then it becomes, in essence, just a lowest-level warning.

 I think _mandatory_ anonymity gives the best variety of board options--it is then truly different from a PM--and it also limits tit-for-tat up-repping, which contributes to the race. (In academia we call these 'citation circles', wherein I'll cite your paper if you cite mine.) But, that does nothing to solve your problem, which I'm sure is very real--both in terms of valid complaints, and in terms of staff time investigating other complaints (which must be more of a pain than looking at questionable posts in a forum).

 I might suggest that you consider only allowing it to be used in the martial arts fora. It seems that many complaints posted are about getting neg. rep. for an opinion in The Study, say. Anything that shifts more of the focus away from the General Talk area and back to the arts fora is good to my mind. The increased 'fun' brings people in and keeps them here, but I see fewer and fewer solid martial arts post (and I find myself then going with the flow on that).

 Frankly, I think there'll be no long-term negative effects from dropping it and there could be some good ones. It causes trouble everywhere--red dots, the scarelt letters of MartialTalk, publicly brand a person an outcast unless he or she pays the price to remove the stain. The belts and post count do serve to keep people motivated to post--for better or worse--and as was suggested the red and green dots have the potential to do the same, but carry too many negatives with them.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> Is this stuff that would have been inappropriate if posted also, or stuff that might have been OK if put up for open debate but not OK anonymously? I ask because I assume that flat-out slurs against a person or group would get action taken against the user in any event.


Both. It seems that when people think they can't be seen, that their worst behavior comes out.


----------



## Lisa

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Both. It seems that when people think they can't be seen, that their worst behavior comes out.



Just a question.  What has happened in the past to those individuals that have misused the rep system?  Do they get suspended for misuse?  Is it the same penalty as slamming someone publicly?


----------



## hardheadjarhead

I think a "forced I.D." would solve the problems.  

But I will accept all that you decide, Bob.  


Regards,


Steve


----------



## terryl965

Bob and the rest of the forum I believe rep points need to stay it is a way to measure one own abilitys to contribute to this forum. I have gotten some dings but I know what I did to upset the person and was able to adjust my writing to not to offend that person again. I also understand people abusing the system but we do not live in a perfect world those things will happen on a chat line please consider dealing with these types of people on a individual basis and not take something down for a few bad apples.

Terry Lee Stoker


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Lisa said:
			
		

> Just a question.  What has happened in the past to those individuals that have misused the rep system?  Do they get suspended for misuse?  Is it the same penalty as slamming someone publicly?


 It depended on what was said. In most cases, the "dings" were either deleted, or the charges "reversed" meaning the negatives were converted to positives. In a few cases, the ability to give was removed or restricted, and there was at least 1 ban due to the nature of the comments made I believe.


----------



## Lisa

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> It depended on what was said. In most cases, the "dings" were either deleted, or the charges "reversed" meaning the negatives were converted to positives. In a few cases, the ability to give was removed or restricted, and there was at least 1 ban due to the nature of the comments made I believe.



So can't the same rules, or rules very similar to those from the public forum be applied to the rep system?  What about Reputation moderators, or would those just cause more problems and headaches?  They deal witht he misuse of the rep system.  Just a simple idea, which I am sure someone will point out to me has many adverse side effects if implemented


----------



## Jonathan Randall

I have mixed feelings on this. If it is becoming a hassle for staff, and we must remember that they are VOLUNTEERS, than deep six it. However, it does have many positive aspects to it. When I first started on MT, those green dots let me know who to pay REAL attention to. Also, I have seen behavior improve as a result of individuals getting "dinged" so many times for the same bad behavior. I think there are already significant safeguards in it and the best solution, from my perspective (understanding that I don't have to put up with the junk the staff does) would be to vigorously remove the rep. privileges of members who misuses the system.

Perhaps let it go away for a little while and come back with a new policy? A short break might not be a bad idea regardless of what is decided. I like Lisa's idea of a rep. moderator.

BTW, I have an idea of who was banned for comments made with the rep. function and - GOOD RIDDANCE! If it was who I think it was (no names), this person, while knowledgeable, was an extremely immature person, of phenomenal ego, and was prone to having adult tantrums.


----------



## arnisador

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> When I first started on MT, those green dots let me know who to pay REAL attention to.


 Can you elaborate? Were these technical matters, or 'social' matters of how one acts on MartialTalk? Did you not take the advice from a person with 3 green dots when it conflicted with advice from someone with 10 green dots? I'm not being sarcastic--I really wonder just _how_ people have used them other than as a personal stockpile.

 I wonder how many other people found them useful in this way?


----------



## Jonathan Randall

arnisador said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate? Were these technical matters, or 'social' matters of how one acts on MartialTalk? Did you not take the advice from a person with 3 green dots when it conflicted with advice from someone with 10 green dots? I'm not being sarcastic--I really wonder just _how_ people have used them other than as a personal stockpile.
> 
> I wonder how many other people found them useful in this way?


I'm glad YOU brought this up, Arnisador (as well as Blossoming Angel), because YOU are the member I was referring to. No longer on staff but with significant enough "green stuff" for me to search and read your previous posts. 

And no, the amount of green dots never affected my consideration of another's post - they only pointed out to me members to take specific care in reading because obviously someone thought they made good points. Now, the RED DOTS did influence me. One member had the maximum red allowable, IIRC, and that let me know straightaway that he very likely was full of something not nice. Y'All know who I mean - he taught H2H to the "special forces" or some such, and couldn't document jack.


----------



## arnisador

I see! Well, this kind of thing makes me more favorable to rep.--not that it was me, but that someone found it useful in this way. I don't hear that said very often.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The idea of a "rep moderator" while sound, doesn't work when you look at the way the system works. Basically, unless someone complains, we don't know theres a problem. Theres no simple "view all rep" function. There is also the simple problem that we tend to stumble across the complaints moreso than receive them. Despite over a hundred postings on how to bring rep-concerns to us, people continue to bury them in the middle of threads, disrupting those threads, and generating little "rep wars" as people sling dings at each other.  I suppose we could start suspending everyone who does that, or issue warnings, but the paperwork, even in an electronic way, would be a bigger headache. It just takes 1 person peeing in the punchbowl to ruin a party. My mission, stop the piddler.

I've updated BuffaloIT to vB3.5 and activated the rep system there, along with a few add-ins. I'll be doing more digging, and experimenting this week. IF! all goes well, when I upgrade MT to 3.5 I will bring the rep-system back.


----------



## mantis

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Mantis,
> vB is has a mysql backend. You can find a ton of intel out at vbulletin.com.
> Short answer, there is a back end control panel, plus all of the raw database is accessable through phpmyadmin.


 im actually working on a CRM project and im doing the proof of concept for it. it's C#, asp.net, and oracle for the backend We definitely should have the turn on/off a feature so i was wondering how it's done... well i guess it's not the place to ask something like that here. 
 thank you though


----------



## mantis

dubljay said:
			
		

> haha my appologies mantis, I am not all together at the moment. I am hopped up on cold pills and badly dehydrated. Some how I've managed to get one helluva flu virus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .  I should have read your post more carefully.  Yay for psudeophedrine hyrdrochloride! (ok I'm gonna go pass out now)


 sorry for that..
 get well sir!


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Negative anonymous rep comments I think do more harm than good. Many times over I've read posts that temporarily hijacked threads from people who were quite disturbed by things that they were dinged for, but mostly they were disturbed by immature comments that were left anonymously. Some people take it very seriously, and allow it to hurt their feelings. I've seen members leave over it. In some cases negative anonymous rep can be the equivalent of nasty comments made from behind a mask. I think its cowardly and see no real good in it. Some people say things that I believe they would _never _consider saying if they had to sign their names. Why? I think it's because they would be embarrassed to admit to the comments, and therefore I feel wouldn't otherwise say it. I prefer constructive criticism over negativity. It's all in how you choose to present it. Signing your name forces you to burn some brain cells in the formulation of your comment, and this might even lead to a better understanding of each other's views, because your message could at least be debated in private. 

So my recommendation: 

I think negative rep without a comment would be more acceptable as an anonymous form of showing disapproval. If you want to comment negatively your name should automatically appear.


Positive rep should stay as is. 


Arnisdor I see what you are saying about it duplicating the PM system, but I have to say that I think PMs are more personal, and time consuming, and I rarely use them. I like the idea of leaving notes of acknowledgement/ encouragement to people without having to then take the time to answer PMs. We are all busy, and if I had to use the system in that way I'd be less likely to drop the note. I also think its cool seeing all the nice comments from people in one place and you couldn't do that without opening all those PMs. one at a time using that method. It's seems like too much work to me.


----------



## Andrew Green

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The idea of a "rep moderator" while sound, doesn't work when you look at the way the system works. Basically, unless someone complains, we don't know theres a problem. Theres no simple "view all rep" function.


 Probably wouldn't be too hard to write a php script and SQL query to "Show all"...  never played with VBulletin's code though...


 oh crap...  my geek came out...


----------



## Lisa

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The idea of a "rep moderator" while sound, doesn't work when you look at the way the system works. Basically, unless someone complains, we don't know theres a problem. Theres no simple "view all rep" function. There is also the simple problem that we tend to stumble across the complaints moreso than receive them. Despite over a hundred postings on how to bring rep-concerns to us, people continue to bury them in the middle of threads, disrupting those threads, and generating little "rep wars" as people sling dings at each other.  I suppose we could start suspending everyone who does that, or issue warnings, but the paperwork, even in an electronic way, would be a bigger headache. It just takes 1 person peeing in the punchbowl to ruin a party. My mission, stop the piddler.
> 
> I've updated BuffaloIT to vB3.5 and activated the rep system there, along with a few add-ins. I'll be doing more digging, and experimenting this week. IF! all goes well, when I upgrade MT to 3.5 I will bring the rep-system back.



If the rep moderator was implemented then people I suppose would probably complain even more, lol but at least it would be brought out and to the attention of the moderator who would then investigate and decide a proper course.   If the rules were clear as to what would happen under those circumstances, I think that would deter some of the bad rep hits and stop some of the pissing matches.   I understand the electronic paper work headache but stopping the piddler by taking the option away from the majority just seems wrong.  Reading the thread, I get the impression that the majority seem to think that the good of the rep system far outweighs the bad.

Hope you change your mind and bring it back.


----------



## pete

bob,

bring back the rep points so i can ding everyone in thread for taking it so seriously~ 

too busy training to give a hoot

pete.


----------



## mj-hi-yah

pete said:
			
		

> bob,
> 
> bring back the rep points so i can ding everyone in thread for taking it so seriously~
> 
> too busy training to give a hoot
> 
> pete.


Pete,
You'll have to ding _yerself _then too fer even commentin' here:boing2: 

MJ :lol:


----------



## shesulsa

arnisador said:
			
		

> By the way, you and I are now tied for most rep.!


 Not really - you have more posts, so that lends more reputation to you, but ... that's okay. 


			
				Johnathon Randall said:
			
		

> When I first started on MT, those green dots let me know who to pay REAL attention to.


 See, I kinda thought this was what reputation was all about and agree.  I took note of folks' reputation and read their posts and made my own judgements, looked for patterns.  When I thought someone displayed consistent positive contribution, I repped them.  When folks were repeatedly or markedly out of line, I dinged them.  

 I'll admit there have been two times when people dinged me just to essentially and electronically flip me off and the purpose wasn't EVEN related to the post they chose to ding and petitioned to have them removed on principle, which the staff so very nicely did. 

 I'd have to say mandatory signing and lack of comment would be an improvement on the previous system.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I've found several hacks and add-ins. I'm testing the system out on buffaloit.com
Once I update MT to vb 3.5, I'll reenable the system with the hacks.
- See who you gave rep to
- Expanded graphics "The dark green pips are followed by light green pips, which are then followed by 'golden' pips. When the limit these can display is reached, the display is prefixed by a golden Star, and started again. If your reputation is zero then the neutral grey pip is displayed. Negative reputations are displayed in a similar manner using light and dark red pips and stars."
- Other tweaks as I test them.


----------



## shesulsa

That sounds fun and interesting, Bob.  neato


----------



## Lisa

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I've found several hacks and add-ins. I'm testing the system out on buffaloit.com
> Once I update MT to vb 3.5, I'll reenable the system with the hacks.
> - See who you gave rep to
> - Expanded graphics "The dark green pips are followed by light green pips, which are then followed by 'golden' pips. When the limit these can display is reached, the display is prefixed by a golden Star, and started again. If your reputation is zero then the neutral grey pip is displayed. Negative reputations are displayed in a similar manner using light and dark red pips and stars."
> - Other tweaks as I test them.



Sounds good Bob.  Will we all be starting from ground zero or will it continue from where we were?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Note: MT is going next to last in my upgradathon. It's got the most modifications, so has the highest chance of going sour. I did 3 boards tonight, have 4 more including MT to go.


----------



## dubljay

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Note: MT is going next to last in my upgradathon. It's got the most modifications, so has the highest chance of going sour. I did 3 boards tonight, have 4 more including MT to go.


 Gotta love upgrades will the site be down during the upgrade? Good luck with it.  I hope it all goes smoothly.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Site will be down for at least a few hours. I need to lock the board, backup the database (2gigs), download the forum, configure the upgrade, upload it, then go through about 50 templates looking for problems.  That last parts the ***** here. I'm aiming for mid week. I am so far loving the new plug-in system though, added about 10 toys to buffit tonite with no problems!


----------



## arnisador

So, this one will be eaasy, eh?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

oh yeah.  As easy as the Dunkirk evacuation.......just with a few less stutka's.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I've found several hacks and add-ins. I'm testing the system out on buffaloit.com
> Once I update MT to vb 3.5, I'll reenable the system with the hacks.
> - See who you gave rep to
> - Expanded graphics "The dark green pips are followed by light green pips, which are then followed by 'golden' pips. When the limit these can display is reached, the display is prefixed by a golden Star, and started again. If your reputation is zero then the neutral grey pip is displayed. Negative reputations are displayed in a similar manner using light and dark red pips and stars."
> - Other tweaks as I test them.


Sounds like a lot of work. Thanks. 

Perhaps you could consider disabling reputation in the political forums as that seems to be where most of the problems have come from?

It'll be nice to be able to send comments to members again, without resorting to PM's, via the Rep. function. That part I do miss. I also really like to do a "Welcome to MT" to new members when they post something even half decent.

Also, please, please consider having one of the positive rep. labels reference PUGS. It would mean so much to me... How about "... has a reputation beyond repute, and is as beautiful, wise and majestic as a Pug dog". If that is not possible, than perhaps in the negative rep. area - "... is a pug dropping"?


----------



## Andrew Green

alright... no pugs, they are silly looking dogs and in no way positive 


 Buffaloit just got it's system, which gives you a breakdown of:
 thread   date   poster   comment


 It looks good and will get rid of annonymous dings, so I'd say go for it.


----------



## Shaolinwind

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> The Reputation system has been temporarily disabled due to a few bad apples abusing it. While most of our members used it responsibly and as intended, a few have been using it to insult, demean, belittle and otherwise abuse it.
> 
> In addition to the abuse, the constant complaints, several bordering on whining from a few individuals guilty of the same abuse they complain about has gotten tiring.
> 
> As a result, I have taken that feature off line while I consider options.
> 
> They are:
> - Remove the system completely
> - Force commenter ID (meaning your name will be visible)
> - Allow only Positive Rep.
> - Allow anyone positive rep, but only supporting members or above can neg-rep.
> - Disallowing comments all together. Just + or -
> 
> The system was intended to be something fun, a nice way to reward those who contribute and nudge those who don't. Instead, it's been a headache. I will be looking into the matter this week and seeing what I can do to possibly return this feature to use, while minimizing abuse and headaches.
> 
> Thank you.


I must say I like any of your ideas other than removing the system completely.  But, I myself have been guilty of abusing it in past months so I don't exactly have room to talk.  I would be understanding and supportive of your choice if you do in fact remove it.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> alright... no pugs, they are silly looking dogs and in no way positive
> 
> 
> It looks good and will get rid of annonymous dings, so I'd say go for it.


Sir, the moment it comes back up - you're getting dinged, and it won't be anonymous, neither! You got no right to diss pugs. No right whatsoever. (humour).


----------



## MA-Caver

> Remove the system completely
> - Force commenter ID (meaning your name will be visible)
> - Allow only Positive Rep.
> - Allow anyone positive rep, but only supporting members or above can neg-rep.
> - Disallowing comments all together. Just + or -


My two bits on it...
*Remove the system*... aww no man... keep it for sure but it could use tweaking.
*Force commenter ID*... force is a strong word but... lets say... automatic, because it should be ID'ed if you're going to say something about someone to them, they have the right to know who you are.
*Allow only Pos. Reps*... nooo, because not everyone is going to agree with everything everyone else is going to say.... neg reps (can) help as long as the reason is constructive and not stuff like "that was stupid". 
*Allow anyone pos. rep? Only supporting can neg*... umm... not fair is the only thing that comes to mind... but maybe this does have merit after all... 
*Disallowing comments altogether*... well when I get a neg rep I want to know WHY... hell I'd like to know why I got a positive one... it helps... it lets me know what I'm doing wrong/right... 

Just my two bits on the whole thing... 
:asian:


----------



## bcbernam777

This may sound a bit harsh but if they have been abusing it, give them one more chance, if they screw around again with it, lock them out of posting for a period until they see the error of their ways, if they persist after that, ban them.


----------



## Makalakumu

arnisador said:
			
		

> I think on balance you'll see less grief without it. By the way, you and I are now tied for most rep.!


How are you figuring out who has most rep? Is there a list somewhere?

As someone who has been harassed by the system, I'm not sad to see it go.  I disabled my rep for a long time because of the sniping.  If it comes back...that is okay.  I think being able to disable one's rep is a good enough way to get rid of it.


----------



## Sapper6

click Members List, and sort by rep...when it comes back.  of those vertical columns, one of them used to show the reps bars.  you clicked the header and it would sort by rep points.

hope that is understandable.


----------



## mrhnau

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> click Members List, and sort by rep...when it comes back.


If/when it returns, I wonder if the old reps will still be there?:idunno: 
MrH


----------



## Sapper6

mrhnau said:
			
		

> If/when it returns, I wonder if the old reps will still be there?:idunno:
> MrH



i think it will.  Admin didn't _erase_ them, just disabled them.  when/if it's re-enabled...at least i hope so.  according to Bob, it's going to get a visual revamp as well, so will look neato.


----------



## Gemini

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I need to lock the board, backup the database (2gigs), download the forum, configure the upgrade, upload it, then go through about 50 templates looking for problems. That last parts the ***** here.


 I think I saw an episode of Star Trek like this (or was that Peabody and the wayback machine). Just do your best to keep our molecules in the right place.

  *pictures leg coming out of forehead*


----------



## jfarnsworth

I could care less whether or not it comes back. Too many people were upset getting their red points.  :idunno:


----------



## Martial Tucker

I agree with a couple of ideas that have already been discussed:

  1. No anonymous rep ratings
  2. A comment should be required

  And, I have a couple other thoughts which are based on comments I made recently in a related thread:

 I think the rep ratings should be used to "reward" a particularly insightful post, or to "reprimand" a post which is "out of line" either by being tastefully inappropriate, irrelevant, factually incorrect, or just plain stupid.

 I don't think neg reps should be directed towards posts that are well thought-out, and well written just because you don't agree with an _opinion_
  stated by the writer. To me, this seems to be where the bulk of the "rep point food fights" begin.

 As I have stated in earlier posts, I am active here at MT and on one other MA forum. Routine observation of the two forums indicates to me that MT
 has a much higher % of threads devoted to topics of either a political or religious nature. Let me stress that I have no problem with that. Any exchange of ideas and opinions in a controlled forum such as this is healthy and good. But politics and religion are (usually) much more incendiary areas of discussion than the typical MA discussion. As such, I'm guessing that, as stated above, here's where most of the rep point abuse centers.

 Therefore, I would submit for consideration (in addition to the 2 mentioned suggestions above) the idea of not enabling/allowing rep points for threads that are in the "Study" or "Locker Room" areas of the forum. I think it would help eliminate much of the sniping, and possibly entice more people to post their honest opinions on the more emotionally-charged topics without fear of "rep point reprisals"

 Again, I think rep points should be used to denote "value added", NOT to "ding and run" against someone just because they have a different opinion.


----------



## mrhnau

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> Therefore, I would submit for consideration (in addition to the 2 mentioned suggestions above) the idea of not enabling/allowing rep points for threads that are in the "Study" or "Locker Room" areas of the forum. I think it would help eliminate much of the sniping, and possibly entice more people to post their honest opinions on the more emotionally-charged topics without fear of "rep point reprisals"


How about this as an alternative... let rep values count less in non-martial areas. Say 1/2 value? 1/5? I think its good that people can still rate someones post for a non-martial topic, and I think the majority of people here are mature enough to handle it. There are probably a handful of trouble makers, and forcing a name would help ease the problems. It would take the difficulty of tracking repeat offenders from the moderators to users. However, I could forsee new posts sounding something like this "Mr X is just out to get me! waaaaaah!". I also like your idea of forcing a comment.

What might be useful is forcing user names to be attached to ratings. Create a forum where anyone can post but only admins/moderators can read (including titles of posts). That way, you have a convenient method for admins to monitor potential problems and correlate possible abusers. Trouble makers would keep popping up, and can be dealt with accordingly. People can post regarding reps and potential abuse of systems (inflated reps too, since some are concerned about that).

MrH


----------



## arnisador

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i think it will. Admin didn't _erase_ them, just disabled them. when/if it's re-enabled...at least i hope so.


If they come back and now have the commenter's name, some people who thought that they were leaving anonymous thoughts will suddenly be unveiled...it could cause trouble!

Of course, using Ignore person-by-person would reveal the identity beforehand, unless it was Staff (They Who Must Not Be Ignored). I never resorted to this tedious procedure, but I know that some have.


----------



## mrhnau

arnisador said:
			
		

> If they come back and now have the commenter's name, some people who thought that they were leaving anonymous thoughts will suddenly be unveiled...it could cause trouble!
> 
> Of course, using Ignore person-by-person would reveal the identity beforehand, unless it was Staff (They Who Must Not Be Ignored). I never resorted to this tedious procedure, but I know that some have.


Taking away the anonimity will be troublesome! I agree with that! Some people just take this so seriously though... Maybe the wise decision will be to just reveal names going forward. let the other ones stay in the shadows.

MrH


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Y'all have alot of good ideas, unfortunately the system, even with all the tweaks isn't that versitile.

In the event we "go public" I'll most likely have to reset the system to protect the anonimity of previous senders. 

I'll be putting a poll up shortly about how to structure it if/when it returns.


----------



## arnisador

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> I think the rep ratings should be used to "reward" a particularly insightful post, or to "reprimand" a post which is "out of line" either by being tastefully inappropriate, irrelevant, factually incorrect, or just plain stupid.
> 
> I don't think neg reps should be directed towards posts that are well thought-out, and well written just because you don't agree with an _opinion_
> stated by the writer. To me, this seems to be where the bulk of the "rep point food fights" begin.


I agree all around. The rep. should be for the _post_, not the _poster_, and should reflect its contribution to the conversation, not whether one agrees or disagrees--that's what the board itself is for!

Of course, enforcing this is impossible.



> As I have stated in earlier posts, I am active here at MT and on one other MA forum. Routine observation of the two forums indicates to me that MT has a much higher % of threads devoted to topics of either a political or religious nature.


Yes, similar to rec.martial-arts, which bills itself as a place for discussions by martial artists rather than a place for discussion of martial arts. It makes some sense. In a sidebar to a review of the upcoming movie "Proof," a mathematician spoke about the in-jokes used by mathematicians and the technical language that filters into even political discussions among them (orthogonal, linearly independent, Lebesgue almost everywhere, etc.). It's similar here. I can use a Miyamoto Musashi reference in The Study and expect people to get it. A colleague tried that here at work a few weeks ago and only I and one another person--his karate student!--understood it.

The social nature of the site draws people in and keeps them coming. That's good, but it dilutes the percentage of the site and its resources that are dedicated to the martial arts.



> Again, I think rep points should be used to denote "value added", NOT to "ding and run" against someone just because they have a different opinion.


But, some people do make posts that contain bad info. or are otherwise objectionable. There are times where neg. rep. is appropriate.

One could also not report anything to the user but the point total. That'd be a barometer of popularity without any way to know who did it, what post it was attached to, etc. Less fun but less fights.

There's no winning.


----------



## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> In the event we "go public" I'll most likely have to reset the system to protect the anonimity of previous senders.


I think this is the fairest thing to do.

I don't know how versatile the system is...I wonder if making everyone's "vote" count the same is a better system. I was giving (or taking) a large number of points each time under the old system...I'm not sure that that was for the best. I know that almost every time I gave a ding I would've liked to have made it for a single point to just "send a message" rather than taking away tens of points as I did.

Definitely, I think the General Talk areas should be rep.-immune if possible...though I've had people seek out random posts of mine to hit with neg. rep. just because they wanted to "get" me for some perceived wrong. (Maybe that perception was correct, of course.) You can't control everything. I should've been petitioning to have dings removed! Can I get a stack of Appeal forms?


----------



## Gemini

It's a shame the thought of everyone acting in a mature and responsible manner didn't work.

 There is no way to tweak the system into a perfect design, simply because everyone's opinion of what a perfect design is, varies. Ultimately, it will always require a certain degree of personal merit. There's just no getting around it.

 There have been reasons mentioned above that I agree with as to why I think the rep system can be useful. If people don't care for it they can, and do, disable it. 
 *I think the idea of having to sign + or - rep points is a good idea. The feedback, even if negative, can and should be presented in a positive manner. 
    *People aren't so quick to attack other people when they have to face them.
 *If a new design comes out and it doesn't seem to have improved anything, it can be changed. Hey, Rome wasn't built in a day and we all saw how long it DIDN'T take Bob to pull it. Not trying to make extra work for Bob, just trying point out that if it gets to be more trouble than it's worth, it's may get gone permanently and next time I doubt he's going to ask anyone's opinion. I for one, would hate to see that.


----------



## arnisador

Now that it's back I'm trying to remember who it was I wanted to rep. while the system was missing...


----------



## shesulsa

arnisador said:
			
		

> Now that it's back I'm trying to remember who it was I wanted to rep. while the system was missing...


 Oh, just start dealing it out, Jeff - doesn't hurt too much! :ultracool


----------



## arnisador

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Oh, just start dealing it out, Jeff - doesn't hurt too much!


  Can I get my username changed to *Scrooge*?


----------



## shesulsa

arnisador said:
			
		

> Can I get my username changed to *Scrooge*?


 :lol2:


----------



## shesulsa

Manure, Jeff.  :whip: Manure!  Now, go fertilize!!!


----------



## arnisador

I thought it was go forth and multiply...and me without my calculator!


----------



## shesulsa

Just so y'all know, Arnisador is after my top spot in reputation.

 Hmmmm ... time to post a busload of one-liners ....


----------



## shesulsa

arnisador said:
			
		

> I thought it was go forth and multiply...and me without my calculator!


 ... uhhh ... it was my understanding ... there would be no math ...:uhyeah:


----------



## arnisador

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Just so y'all know, Arnisador is after my top spot in reputation.


Surely no one will believe this spurious slur on my character. Where do you come up with such ideas?


----------



## Gemini

arnisador said:
			
		

> Now that it's back I'm trying to remember who it was I wanted to rep. while the system was missing...


Not sure who it could have been....

Subliminal message to arni.....


Gemini


Gemini


Gemini


Gemini


:uhyeah:


----------

