# Some of my videos on Youtube



## oaktree (Mar 8, 2016)

Well it has been a while since I have been here we me raising two kids,work,school and of course martial arts.
My wife or Laopo asked me to make some videos of me doing wushu. I first thought is hmm am I good enough to show the world my wushu? 

   Do I understand the concepts correctly is my form correct or am I just another person will terrible form, unrealistic application. So I made some videos I have to say they are fun to make and unsure exactly how to make one look good. So I made the video in a way as if I was teaching someone who never did Baguazhang . I put in what I feel are the concepts and theory of the arts and my approach to them for health and fighting.  I also wanted to show case the Kai Sai Baguazhang style however, these are my varations of it and I tried to put back some of the Cheng style that Wang Shu Jin studied from. Some of those is the way the palm change with the arm rotation and leg lifting that is not found in the Kai Sai Baguazhang and is more in the Cheng style. 
I will be putting up clips with an actual partner later because they do help show the concepts better than me in a room however messy it is lol. In the style of Baguazhang Wang Shu Jin trained in and as passed down to me the clear evidence of Shuai Jiao is in there. 

I also want to say that in my Baguazhang elements of Escrima, Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, Taijiquan, other forms of Baguazhang and my experiences in martial arts has my approach a little bit different perhaps.


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## oaktree (Mar 8, 2016)




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## MyrddinEmrys (Mar 8, 2016)

Thank you for sharing your baguazhang in video format with us.  I really like the bagua I learned and would be happy to discuss bagua in general with you.  

I only have two suggestions about the videos themselves.  The first is a request for the camera to be far enough away to see your foot movements as well as the rest of your body, though it does look like you're filming in a small space, so I understand if that isn't a possibility.  The second is that for the demonstration portion of the video, you do each technique or form once where you start facing the camera and once where you start facing away from the camera.  In bagua we tend to turn a lot so it's easy to start facing the camera, turn to face away, then turn back to the camera and the viewer can't tell exactly what's going on with your hands when  your back is turned.  If you do it both ways, it makes it easier to see.  I suggest this, because it's easier to understand a break down of details in a video if the whole form or technique is easily viewed first.  I do like that you try to break it down and explain what you're doing, important points, and applications.  

The bagua I learned was a bit of Cheng style and a bit of Gao style (Gao style is a subset of Cheng style).  I have not heard of Kai Sai Baguazhang before.  Can  you tell us more about it's history and influences?  

It would be interesting to see or read your thoughts on circle walking as well as forms and important principles for bagua in general.  I have several thoughts on what I think are useful or important points based on what I learned, what I learned from practicing, things I've read, and much time spent pondering all of the above.


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## oaktree (Mar 9, 2016)

Thank you for watching the videos first time making one of the these and you are absolutely correct about showing the feet in walking, turning, pivots with toe in and toe out.  I think I will put a video up showing walking circle of the feet. The kai sai version of circle walking is unlike other styles that they lift the feet as opposed to the more slide step and mud step of Baguazhang found in gao style. From what I was told regarding the history of kai sai Baguazhang is that it comes from wang shu jin and also another Baguazhang stylist. Kent Howard who also trained with wang shu jin also told me Mr.Casey(Kai sai) trained with wang. There are difference in the patterns of wang Baguazhang and kai sai Baguazhang as Mr Casey modified, omitted, and added to make his Baguazhang a unique form built in my opinion on certain principles or rudimentary patterns. So for example, the first palm does look like say another Baguazhang style but with pieces taken out, in some way Mr. Casey May have simplified the form to its primal function. What I have done is after doing the form for so many years brought in my interpretation and added from other Baguazhang such as liang style and some characters to give it a feeling more traditional. My foot work in walking does not in the kai sai walking pick up the feet nor does it slide deep it has a more natural walking in the middle of both and I will in the next video show examples of some of the Baguazhang walking I was taught. 

Applications I hope to get a partner to demonstrate better. My main thought on Baguazhang is my opponent is a bigger stronger opponent who with one punch would go right through me(think linebacker)
So I do not want to be on the center line were all his energy is going to be, I want to move off the center of line and attack at an angle were he will be at his weakest, blind spot, and handle his energy circular.


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## oaktree (Mar 9, 2016)

Here is the foot work and circle walking of the style.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2016)

Thanks, 

What style of Baguazhang did you train?


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## oaktree (Mar 9, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thanks,
> 
> What style of Baguazhang did you train?


This is my varation of Kai sai Baguazhang short core form which consists of 8 palm changes that I started learning since 2005. Some of the things are changed or differ from how it is originally taught by my teacher Master Cravens as I also have had exposure to Yin, Gao, and Liang styles and Liang style being a favorite of mine.

My Liang baguazhang teacher says my Liang old palm form is not to bad just needs some polishing. The Kai Sai Baguazhang style has an 8 palm change form, a fixed 8 palm form, an 8 animal palm form. The Kai Sai  8 short core Bagua form is a simplified form compared to most baguazhang styles but the animal forms do have a more complex process. Master Craven's teacher Master Casey learned from Wang shu jin and other Bagua teachers so ommitted things in the form or added or revision in the form.

When looking at the form and looking at the history of where the form development there is clear evidence of the Shuai jiao.However, each part of the form can have multiple functions so one thing could be a strike, a qinna, or the set up for a throw. Doing this particular form of Baguazhang roughly 10 years now I am very comfortable with it, Liang style not as long. I also do Chen Taijiquan Laojia  and I most likely have a very "urban street wise" on application in that which I think differs from traditional views for example I see walk obliquely as a potiental head butting. I think I did many years ago write about my time with a Gao style teacher and his method of circle walking as well as the Kun Tao baguazhang guys who walk a square. I originally didn't want to make videos but two things kinda of made me want to one laopo wanted me to and second I saw a video of this guy:




This guy charges people $70 an hour and as I watched him I thought no matter how much I suck I can't be as bad as him  actually I was showing someone else my video and someone said I am very boring. And to also show something I have been doing I invite you to check out this Twitter:
Kama Kuma (@OfficalKamaKuma) | Twitter
I created these cartoon characters.One of my followers on my Twitter is the Wutang clan I am now Hip hop special.


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## MyrddinEmrys (Mar 10, 2016)

Thank you for the video of your stepping and circle walking.  My primary mode of transportation for many years was walking and I love hiking and taking walks where I've never walked before.  I really like doing and watching the very interesting stepping patterns in bagua.  

I've seen and read of several stepping methods used in bagua:  several variations on mud stepping, more normal heel to toe stepping, and stepping where you lift the foot in a very pronounced manner.  I tend to practice more heel to toe stepping when I circle walk because that's the type of step I'm most likely to use in every day life and is more suitable for a wider variety of surfaces than mud stepping.  I do think mud stepping can be useful helping to encourage and train someone to keep their toes and knees pointing in the same direction, so as to avoid unnecessary twisting of the knee.  I think it can also be useful for emphasizing pushing forwards with the back leg in a step rather than pulling forwards with the front leg, which can be useful applying or issuing power into an opponent or merely moving to a better position quickly.  

One of the important points, in my opinion, is that when you toe in or toe out is to rotate the leg at the hip, rather than twisting with the knee and/or ankle.  This is especially important if you do something like the following:  step North with the right foot with a toe out step so your toes point roughly Northeast or East, shift your weight to the right foot, and bring the left foot to a position just North of the right in a toe in position so it points roughly Southeast.  I've seen a couple versions of single palm change that have such a maneuver, including my own.  (I think you do something similar at about 8:13-8:15.)  It is important to rotate in the hip of the supporting leg as opposed to twisting or pulling with the knee and/or ankle.  This prevents unnecessary and unhelpful strain on said knees.  

Something else I hadn't thought much about til recently is that the knee shouldn't go past the toes, because doing so adds extra strain to the knees.  A lot of the styles I did in the past really liked low stances, and that point was never discussed outside of bow stance, and even then knee strain was not the motivation for its mentioning.  I have paid more attention and given more thought to it since I recently started tai chi and it was pointed out more.  

My tai chi teacher teaches Yang and Chen styles, teaching Yang first, and then Chen.  The way the class is set up and the way he teaches gives me the opportunity to observe closely his movements for both styles, as well as learn a little about Chen style as I learn Yang style.  From my observations of him, I'd say that the tai chi in the video you posted is rather bad and not worth $70/hr.


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## oaktree (Mar 10, 2016)

I agree with you on the knee I think I spoke about that concern in the foot work video, when I was talking with my teacher about Chen Taijiquan and my knees he told me "well, is your knee over your toe are you going low in a forceful position rather, then a relaxed position?" In Baguazhang I remember the pivot back to base line, you can easily twist the knee which is why as you stated the rotation comes from the waist.  Speaking of that gentleman video can you be believe he is a certified teacher under Jesse tsao to teach that form?!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2016)

oaktree said:


> This is my varation of Kai sai Baguazhang short core form which consists of 8 palm changes that I started learning since 2005. Some of the things are changed or differ from how it is originally taught by my teacher Master Cravens as I also have had exposure to Yin, Gao, and Liang styles and Liang style being a favorite of mine.
> 
> My Liang baguazhang teacher says my Liang old palm form is not to bad just needs some polishing. The Kai Sai Baguazhang style has an 8 palm change form, a fixed 8 palm form, an 8 animal palm form. The Kai Sai  8 short core Bagua form is a simplified form compared to most baguazhang styles but the animal forms do have a more complex process. Master Craven's teacher Master Casey learned from Wang shu jin and other Bagua teachers so ommitted things in the form or added or revision in the form.
> 
> ...



There are a lot of people out there teaching taiji that shouldn't be, and the guy in that video is one of them...that is pure tai cheese......or the taiji two step...but not Taijiquan


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## oaktree (Mar 10, 2016)

Well he does have quite a decent amount of people training under him. I believe he has a yang form too


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2016)

Yang...hmmm.... got a video..... on second thought...I don't want to see it


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## oaktree (Mar 10, 2016)

I think his Yang video is better than his Chen video.


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## MyrddinEmrys (Mar 11, 2016)

I watched that guy's Yang style video.  I recognize some of the movements from my own training, but also see key details of movement that are missing.  

It's one of the things I saw in my Bagua teacher and then later my Tai Chi teacher:  a greater level of nuance to movements that might otherwise be done very simplistically.  I think, sometimes, that I can or have seen something similar in videos of animals.  The body is made of lots of smaller pieces and usually people only move the big ones or move several pieces as one unit, but with certain martial artists and animals, more of those smaller pieces are moving individually, but still in a way that is in harmony or is coordinated with the rest of the moving pieces making up the whole body.  (I can try to describe examples, if anyone wants me to, but I do not have a camera so I can't really demonstrate myself.)  Sometimes I can see it in people's Bagua videos, sometimes I don't.  I have less experience with Tai Chi, so it's harder to tell sometimes, at least for me.  Also, sometimes things are easier to see in person than in a video.  

With that said, looking at that guy's Tai Chi videos, he probably does not know that he does not know.  And most new students, unfortunately, won't know it either, thus wasting time and money.  This makes me sad.  

Shifting back to Bagua discussions...when you walk the circle holding a static upper body posture and look towards the center, do you turn mostly just the neck to face the center, turn a little bit at the waist towards the center, or does your whole back twist as you face the center?  Is it a style or personal preference, and is there a reason for this preference?  Any other thoughts on the benefits of circle walking or what it can teach  you?  I ask, since Bagua doesn't seem to get discussed much, and I feel inclined to pick your brain to compare ideas.


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## oaktree (Mar 11, 2016)

When I walk circle the toe out causes the waist to turn towards the circle when I toe in the waist turns resulting in the upper body turning and finally the neck. So it is the angle of the footing resulting in the leg turning the waist and up the spine. In a Qigong way the kidneys and ming men are in constant rotation with the Dan tian In my theory each step and focus can be on the yongquan point and follow up the Kidney jing luo just as say holding posture with arms out can help with the heart and lung jingluo. 

 The way I see doing forms is like a tree, The root(below the yongquan point, yi) is the most important, the trunk(legs and waist) are second important Branches are the (upper arms and chest area) and finally the leaves(hand and fingers) I think in circle walking we want to be as natural as possible but in the principles of a relaxed posture following the formula of 1.The Bai hui point feels like a string pulling up 2. The neck area especially around Feng Chi point and Jade pillow point are relaxed, 3. The shoulders are round and sunk 4. Elbows drop as as if placed on a plate to hold it 5.wrist are peng 6. have almost like a squeezing feel to it so that way the Qi is flowing freely. 

 As this posture is relaxed the generating power in the foot and trunk and the rotation is moving the Qi similar how a tree gains nutrients from the ground up the roots up the trunk throught the branches and finally the leaves. I think in neijia trees are a great teaching metaphor and following examples of the tree be it bamboo or oak or even pine will greatly benefit in practice.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2016)

MyrddinEmrys said:


> I watched that guy's Yang style video.  I recognize some of the movements from my own training, but also see key details of movement that are missing.
> 
> It's one of the things I saw in my Bagua teacher and then later my Tai Chi teacher:  a greater level of nuance to movements that might otherwise be done very simplistically.  I think, sometimes, that I can or have seen something similar in videos of animals.  The body is made of lots of smaller pieces and usually people only move the big ones or move several pieces as one unit, but with certain martial artists and animals, more of those smaller pieces are moving individually, but still in a way that is in harmony or is coordinated with the rest of the moving pieces making up the whole body.  (I can try to describe examples, if anyone wants me to, but I do not have a camera so I can't really demonstrate myself.)  Sometimes I can see it in people's Bagua videos, sometimes I don't.  I have less experience with Tai Chi, so it's harder to tell sometimes, at least for me.  Also, sometimes things are easier to see in person than in a video.
> 
> With that said, looking at that guy's Tai Chi videos, he probably does not know that he does not know.  And most new students, unfortunately, won't know it either, thus wasting time and money.  This makes me sad.




When I use to teach Taijiquan, and even in Taijiquan push hands, I use to emphasize that it is not just getting from point A to point B (start of movement to the end of movement). It is getting from point A to point Z and that all the points in between are equally as important.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2016)

oaktree said:


> When I walk circle the toe out causes the waist to turn towards the circle when I toe in the waist turns resulting in the upper body turning and finally the neck. So it is the angle of the footing resulting in the leg turning the waist and up the spine. In a Qigong way the kidneys and ming men are in constant rotation with the Dan tian In my theory each step and focus can be on the yongquan point and follow up the Kidney jing luo just as say holding posture with arms out can help with the heart and lung jingluo.
> 
> The way I see doing forms is like a tree, The root(below the yongquan point, yi) is the most important, the trunk(legs and waist) are second important Branches are the (upper arms and chest area) and finally the leaves(hand and fingers) I think in circle walking we want to be as natural as possible but in the principles of a relaxed posture following the formula of 1.The Bai hui point feels like a string pulling up 2. The neck area especially around Feng Chi point and Jade pillow point are relaxed, 3. The shoulders are round and sunk 4. Elbows drop as as if placed on a plate to hold it 5.wrist are peng 6. have almost like a squeezing feel to it so that way the Qi is flowing freely.
> 
> As this posture is relaxed the generating power in the foot and trunk and the rotation is moving the Qi similar how a tree gains nutrients from the ground up the roots up the trunk throught the branches and finally the leaves. I think in neijia trees are a great teaching metaphor and following examples of the tree be it bamboo or oak or even pine will greatly benefit in practice.



The Cheng style I use to train had multiple types of stepping, heal/toe, mud walking, and one I can only describe as a low toe kick to someone’s shin and all were trained linear and circular. But the circular, if I remember correctly the outer foot turned toe in on the step and the inner went straight. This kept the circle from spiraling in on itself and protected the groin as well


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## oaktree (Mar 11, 2016)

On the toe in and toe out really depends on how big or small the circle is. The smaller the circle the more the toe in and toe out seem to shape. I know a lot of Baguazhang people and many have written about it that the outer foot is toe in and the inner foot is more straight, but in my opinion there has to be a little toe out from the inner foot to curve with the circle. 

For example, if you place a circle object say a round weight place your inner foot on the edge of it and then take the next step you will find the next step has to be a toe in. 
Another example, put your heels together then toe out then toe in, you will find yourself naturally going into a circle.

If we use the round weight and we go straight without following the edge of the roundness of the inner circle but go straight and toe in with outer foot, the gap will close and you will step on your foot. Again depends on size of circle my example was on a very small circle maybe the smallest you can do, a bigger circle yes in some way the base line is a straighline well as straight as a circle start point can be. Ha who knew Chinese martial arts would have so much geometry equations


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## MyrddinEmrys (Mar 12, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> When I use to teach Taijiquan, and even in Taijiquan push hands, I use to emphasize that it is not just getting from point A to point B (start of movement to the end of movement). It is getting from point A to point Z and that all the points in between are equally as important.



I've heard my Tai Chi teacher use a similar idea, like starting with two end points and adding more points in between as you develop.  It's rather like having a mosaic with ever increasing numbers of colored dots. 




Xue Sheng said:


> The Cheng style I use to train had multiple types of stepping, heal/toe, mud walking, and one I can only describe as a low toe kick to someone’s shin and all were trained linear and circular. But the circular, if I remember correctly the outer foot turned toe in on the step and the inner went straight. This kept the circle from spiraling in on itself and protected the groin as well



I was taught 2 basic patterns for the circle:  one is to toe in with the outside foot and go straight with the inside foot, and the other is to toe in with the outside foot and toe out with the inside foot.  The first method is more stable, but the second is more circular and is probably more similar to what you'd do if you made a circle in a very small space.  The second might also be better for learning to open up the hips a bit more because you will be rotating at the inner hip more to toe out with each step.  Stepping straight with the inner foot does keep the thighs together more, thus protecting the groin.  I'm curious if that's a Xingyi influence, since I've read that Cheng Tinghua had a few Xingyi friends back in the day.  These kinds of details on how to do the circle I have only learned and read about in relation to Cheng style, so I don't know how similar or different the other styles might be. 

I just watched part of a video with He Jinbao doing Yin style circle walking and he is very noticeably stepping toe out with the inside foot.  This could be his style or because the circle is small, I don't know. 








oaktree said:


> On the toe in and toe out really depends on how big or small the circle is. The smaller the circle the more the toe in and toe out seem to shape. I know a lot of Baguazhang people and many have written about it that the outer foot is toe in and the inner foot is more straight, but in my opinion there has to be a little toe out from the inner foot to curve with the circle.
> 
> For example, if you place a circle object say a round weight place your inner foot on the edge of it and then take the next step you will find the next step has to be a toe in.
> Another example, put your heels together then toe out then toe in, you will find yourself naturally going into a circle.
> ...



The curve of the circle and stepping straight with the inside foot: 

Stepping straight with the inside foot could be defined as stepping in a line perpendicular to the line of the hips before you make the step (the hips might shift with the step, thus changing the final angle).  What makes this more or less circular is what angle you prefer to have between the supporting foot and the line of the hips and how much you toe in with the outside foot after the straight inside foot step.  You could have quite a bit of fun varying angles for the outside foot when it is supporting you and when it is toe in stepping to see how each one affects how circular your circle really is.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 12, 2016)

MyrddinEmrys said:


> I'm curious if that's a Xingyi influence, since I've read that Cheng Tinghua had a few Xingyi friends back in the day.  These kinds of details on how to do the circle I have only learned and read about in relation to Cheng style, so I don't know how similar or different the other styles might be.



Having much more experience in XIngyqian than Baguazhang I can say, could be. There are different schools of thought on stepping in XIngyi as well. Some of those are style based others are likely preference based, meaning whoever came up with it like ti better. My xingyi, which is Hebei style from the north of China, is toe in with the front leg. However I did train with a man who was also Hebei style who would be more of a Southern style of Hebei and the front toe was straight. 

But I do also believe Gao style Bagua has a linear form.


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## oaktree (Mar 12, 2016)

Well in the yin video he does lift his heel definitely not mud stepping and some will say mud stepping is a training tool others say it is a contemporary method of walking. 
There was a video of taoist circle walking I believe from the longmen pai and chanting and the walking is a normal type of walk definitely not mud stepping. I am a big advocate for as close to natural as possible but I understand that different situations and terrains can alter how you step.


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## oaktree (Mar 12, 2016)

I think the linear form I recall I did was the kun or trigram it was many years ago I found it to be less flowing and more like straight blasting more in line with Xingyiquan or karate if I had to compare


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## MyrddinEmrys (Mar 13, 2016)

From what I've read, I think Gao style has 64 short linear forms and 8 short forms for the circle (like single palm change, double palm change, etc.).  There's other stuff too, like drills, linking forms, etc.


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## oaktree (Mar 13, 2016)

In gao style I learned the first two palms and I guess first kun or trigram and their method of circle walking I could not get much into it because the slide step was like the leg was kept straight and like slipping on a banana peel with the back angled very strange. 
All I could think was if someone stepped like that with the leg straight I would just stomp on the knee. Or hook the leg or single leg pick up just seem not practical.


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