# Is there a connection between WC and Southern Mantis?



## Marnetmar (Feb 26, 2015)

People tend to talk about Wing Chun being related to Fujian White Crane, but I've looked up some stuff on Southern Mantis, and there seems to be far more similarities between WC and Mantis than between WC and White Crane. The two arts are _extremely_ similar, in fact.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 27, 2015)

They are all southern short bridge systems.

Between Crane and Wing Chun (and probably Southern Mantis, but I'm not sure) they were political allies, fighting the Mancunians, which means they likely would have cooperated with each other and potentially helped each other. It is easy to see commonality.

I have seen this video before, but just watched it again. Wow, easy to relate almost every single move in this to wing chun. There are sections of crane forms that directly parallel sections of wing chun forms. 

They are all clearly related to me. Not the same, but related. That's why I named my club what I did.


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm thinking more and more that Wing Chun, along with Southern Mantis, Bok Mei and any other of the Southern Fist, or short bridge systems originated from Hakka.
The Hakka, from what I understand, were a group of people who migrated down from the northern part of China some 2000 years ago and settled along the coast of Southern China.

Whereas by comparison, the other southern styles that some refer to as long bridge, such as  Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut are descended from Shaolin for the most part.

Here is a link to an interesting article on the subject.
Wing Chun and the Hakka Arts Is there a connection Kung Fu Tea


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2015)

Here is a video of Hakka Kung Fu. The first 2 forms shown are empty hand, but the last 2 are staff sets very reminiscent of long pole.


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2015)

IN this Hakka video, the first form is strikingly similar to WC's Biu Tze form.
Try to ignore the horrible camera work...I think the camera man had a few too many.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 27, 2015)

Yes, I agree. It's an interesting thing for people to argue about, until you just start examining these other short bridge styles, then it's tough to even argue. No one who knows bil jee would argue that the form above and bil jee were created in vacuums, independently of one another.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 27, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I'm thinking more and more that Wing Chun, along with Southern Mantis, Bok Mei and any other of the Southern Fist, or short bridge systems originated from Hakka.
> The Hakka, from what I understand, were a group of people who migrated down from the northern part of China some 2000 years ago and settled along the coast of Southern China.
> 
> Whereas by comparison, the other southern styles that some refer to as long bridge, such as  Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut are descended from Shaolin for the most part.
> ...


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Some things can look similar but are not the same.Ip Man wing chun has no causal link with Hakka based mantis. The chest structure, the stances, the breathing methods are different. But because many south china arts emphasize close quarters work some things can superficially look similar.I  have done wing chunconsitently since 1976 and now deceased friend of  mine was a protege of Gin foon Mak.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 27, 2015)

I completely agree that they are not the same. 

They are all different arts, but they are also not uniquely distinct, as is often represented.


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## Marnetmar (Feb 27, 2015)

yak sao said:


> IN this Hakka video, the first form is strikingly similar to WC's Biu Tze form.
> Try to ignore the horrible camera work...I think the camera man had a few too many.



Jesus Christ, it matches Biu Jee almost one to one. This is starting to scare me 

Thanks for sharing!


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## ShortBridge (Feb 27, 2015)

As I understand it (and I may not), I believe the haaka were nomadic and their styles were compiled from things they picked up as they traveled around, so visible influences of other systems in their forms shouldn't be a surprise.

But, I can't cite a good source for that and I stand to be corrected if someone knows better.


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## geezer (Feb 27, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> Jesus Christ, *it matches Biu Jee almost one to one.*



That's because it _*is*_ Biu Tze. I came across this same clip a long time ago with some more English comments. I believe it's kind of a montage of southern systems including WC as well as Hakka stuff.

Actually, blending and borrowing has been going on forever. I'm not at all surprised that a lot of the other southern short-bridge systems share many similar traits. After all, these guys fought each other. Of course they picked up stuff. If you were into martial arts for _functionality_, You'd use what was functional. That idea didn't start with Bruce Lee!


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## Vajramusti (Feb 28, 2015)

geezer said:


> That's because it _*is*_ Biu Tze. I came across this same clip a long time ago with some more English comments. I believe it's kind of a montage of southern systems including WC as well as Hakka stuff.
> 
> Actually, blending and borrowing has been going on forever. I'm not at all surprised that a lot of the other southern short-bridge systems share many similar traits. After all, these guys fought each other. Of course they picked up stuff. If you were into martial arts for _functionality_, You'd use what was functional. That idea didn't start with Bruce Lee!


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good post-on target


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## ShortBridge (Feb 28, 2015)

geezer said:


> ... I'm not at all surprised that a lot of the other southern short-bridge systems share many similar traits. After all, these guys fought each other. Of course they picked up stuff. ...



Good points.

Another perspective I'd like to throw out is that they very likely also fought WITH each other. They were geographical and political allies. When you talk about Crane and Wing Chun (for example), they were Ming loyalist who were trying to overthrow the Qing. We think about different martial arts as being rivals and challenging each other, but these were also people in neighboring provinces and villages who were on the same side of a dispute and they would have collaborated and in theory, hidden somebody for x months, during which they trained together and so on.

This type of Chinese history appears to be more of the folk variety than the documented variety, so it's hard to say, but I think that if we step out of the context of competition and kung fu theater, there's a reasonable case to be made for some degree of cooperation, collaboration and collusion. Many traditional Chinese systems have an opening salute (gang sign, if you will) that identifies their political affiliation...for a reason.

And, I don't mean to imply that these are all the same system. They're not, but I think it's a myth to say that they were all uniquely developed by a monk who isolated themselves in the wilderness for a decade observing nature and inventing something completely new. One of the reasons those stories exist is that, unlike contemporary modern arts culture, you didn't want to advertise that you were the head of a system, because you didn't want the people you were fighting to come and burn your house down...better that they're looking for a folk character than doesn't actually exist.

..but I don't claim to be a true authority on this. It has been an interest and a research passion of mine for several years and I have some sources that I consider reasonably good, but just take it as a perspective. I don't mean to assert or imply any definitive knowledge of facts.


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## VT_Vectis (Feb 28, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> They are all southern short bridge systems.
> 
> Between Crane and Wing Chun (and probably Southern Mantis, but I'm not sure) they were political allies, fighting the Mancunians, which means they likely would have cooperated with each other and potentially helped each other.



Really? What did they have against people from Manchester?  ;-)


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## ShortBridge (Feb 28, 2015)

VT_Vectis said:


> Really? What did they have against people from Manchester?  ;-)



I think it has something to do with Coronation Street...I'm not really sure. That's the problem with folk-history, I guess.


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## Transk53 (Feb 28, 2015)

Another classic WC thread


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## Transk53 (Feb 28, 2015)

ShortBridge said:


> I think it has something to do with Coronation Street...I'm not really sure. That's the problem with folk-history, I guess.



Kinda makes sense. Oh you really would not want to watch it!


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