# I hate sparring. I love sparring.



## AngryHobbit

After eight years of a more traditional aikido training, with challenging but somewhat scripted attack lines, some grappling, and some striking (but with the instruction to never touch the target if practicing striking with a person), I've now had some exposure to sparring - and I am convinced: it is necessary. 

Yes, at our class, sparring is still not like an actual fight. The environment is still controlled. We can request to increase the speed or dial down. We can set conditions. We wear gloves. And yet... there is something eminently educational about getting tapped with some force - even if it's a padded tap. I don't think practicing blocks without sparring for eight years had taught me as much about blocking effectively as a few sparring sessions I've recently had. 

Two added bonuses about sparring for me, personally. One, as a bullying survivor, learning to spar helps me strengthen the non-victim mentality. It's not that I pound my sparring partners into a pulp (as I used to wish I could do with bullies as a child) - in fact, my instructor keeps telling me I am still too nice. But there is something to be said for the self-esteem boost one gets when managing to sneak past the opponent's defenses. 

Two, I wear 14-oz boxing gloves when sparring. If I remember correctly, it's the lightest boxing glove, but I am five feet short and have small hands and short arms - so, suddenly growing a pair of 14-oz fists makes for one hell of a wrist, arm, and shoulder workout. It's torture but it's fantastic. 

Would love to hear about other sparring experiences and advice.


----------



## Headhunter

Personally I don't think sparring is essential. I competed in boxing, kickboxing and mma for over 15 years and I sparred maybe 4 times during that entire time. The rest of it was simply drills and pads. But yes sparring can be fun and a good stress reliever.

Also 14 oz isn't anywhere near the lightest proffesional fighters in boxing/ kickboxing mainly use 10 oz for fights and some use 8 oz but the smallest is 4 oz which is used by mma fighters (and some Muay Thai are starting to use that size as well)


----------



## AngryHobbit

Headhunter said:


> Personally I don't think sparring is essential. I competed in boxing, kickboxing and mma for over 15 years and I sparred maybe 4 times during that entire time. The rest of it was simply drills and pads. But yes sparring can be fun and a good stress reliever.
> 
> Also 14 oz isn't anywhere near the lightest proffesional fighters in boxing/ kickboxing mainly use 10 oz for fights and some use 8 oz but the smallest is 4 oz which is used by mma fighters (and some Muay Thai are starting to use that size as well)


Thank you - I didn't realize there were even lighter boxing gloves. I knew there were some lighter ones in kempo - but not in boxing. I appreciate the correction.


----------



## Headhunter

AngryHobbit said:


> Thank you - I didn't realize there were even lighter boxing gloves. I knew there were some lighter ones in kempo - but not in boxing. I appreciate the correction.


14 oz is a good weight for training though. You don't want smaller gloves for sparring otherwise that can cause unnecessary damage to your training partners. In fact most professionals spar in 16 oz or even 20 oz gloves. I've always used either 12 or 14 and unless you're going to fight in the ring there's really no need to wear lighter


----------



## AngryHobbit

Headhunter said:


> 14 oz is a good weight for training though. You don't want smaller gloves for sparring otherwise that can cause unnecessary damage to your training partners. In fact most professionals spar in 16 oz or even 20 oz gloves. I've always used either 12 or 14 and unless you're going to fight in the ring there's really no need to wear lighter


14 oz definitely make for a good workout. I am still teaching myself to fist my hands correctly inside the gloves - because there is so much room, I find myself clenching them in a death grip, as if that glove can go anywhere, what with being wrapped to my wrist.  

And yes, I do love the padding. In the past, I shied away from using strikes - I simply felt very little motivation to do all that work, dodge the other person's invariably longer arms and legs, and get within my range. I'd just wait for my opponent to go for a grab and become attached to me, so I could do a joint lock.

I am definitely rediscovering strikes. Even with short reach and short height, there are still good targets available, once you get into the opponent's "dead zone" - ribs, sides, back, stomach, groin. Good training...  And yes - fun and stress relief thrown in for good measure. I often hear both my grandmothers in my head, telling me how unladylike it all is, and laugh the whole time.


----------



## JR 137

AngryHobbit said:


> After eight years of a more traditional aikido training, with challenging but somewhat scripted attack lines, some grappling, and some striking (but with the instruction to never touch the target if practicing striking with a person), I've now had some exposure to sparring - and I am convinced: it is necessary.
> 
> Yes, at our class, sparring is still not like an actual fight. The environment is still controlled. We can request to increase the speed or dial down. We can set conditions. We wear gloves. And yet... there is something eminently educational about getting tapped with some force - even if it's a padded tap. I don't think practicing blocks without sparring for eight years had taught me as much about blocking effectively as a few sparring sessions I've recently had.
> 
> Two added bonuses about sparring for me, personally. One, as a bullying survivor, learning to spar helps me strengthen the non-victim mentality. It's not that I pound my sparring partners into a pulp (as I used to wish I could do with bullies as a child) - in fact, my instructor keeps telling me I am still too nice. But there is something to be said for the self-esteem boost one gets when managing to sneak past the opponent's defenses.
> 
> Two, I wear 14-oz boxing gloves when sparring. If I remember correctly, it's the lightest boxing glove, but I am five feet short and have small hands and short arms - so, suddenly growing a pair of 14-oz fists makes for one hell of a wrist, arm, and shoulder workout. It's torture but it's fantastic.
> 
> Would love to hear about other sparring experiences and advice.


I think your teacher sucks.  Waiting all that time to spar, then sparring non-contact and all.  Run, don’t walk away! You’ve found yourself a classic McDojo.  Next thing you’re going to tell me you can’t leave due to some sacred bond or some cult-like thing.  Cut your losses and never see that clown again.  You’ll thank me some day, trust me.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JR 137 said:


> I think your teacher sucks.  Waiting all that time to spar, then sparring non-contact and all.  Run, don’t walk away! You’ve found yourself a classic McDojo.  Next thing you’re going to tell me you can’t leave due to some sacred bond or some cult-like thing.  Cut your losses and never see that clown again.  You’ll thank me some day, trust me.


Having a real hard time deciding between 'agree' and 'funny'


----------



## Encho

My take on sparring is a lot of people rush into sparring without going over their fundamentals and drilling them,so when they actually spar it is just haymakers and sloppiness. I personally find drills to be better for reaction and build your resistance gradually without resorting to sloppiness.
I think sparring has its place，mostly more as a conditioning but sparring and actually fighting at least in my experience are nowhere the same.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

AngryHobbit said:


> 14 oz definitely make for a good workout. I am still teaching myself to fist my hands correctly inside the gloves - because there is so much room, I find myself clenching them in a death grip, as if that glove can go anywhere, what with being wrapped to my wrist.
> 
> And yes, I do love the padding. In the past, I shied away from using strikes - I simply felt very little motivation to do all that work, dodge the other person's invariably longer arms and legs, and get within my range. I'd just wait for my opponent to go for a grab and become attached to me, so I could do a joint lock.
> 
> I am definitely rediscovering strikes. Even with short reach and short height, there are still good targets available, once you get into the opponent's "dead zone" - ribs, sides, back, stomach, groin. Good training...  And yes - fun and stress relief thrown in for good measure. I often hear both my grandmothers in my head, telling me how unladylike it all is, and laugh the whole time.


Nothing at all against your fighting style, or style in general, but I love sparring people like you. My goal is to outstrips strikers (which works sometimes, sometimes it doesnt), or move in a way to tempt grapples to try grabbing my while I slip in an out of grappling range. That's my speciality, and I have to say I am really good at it.

It's important to practice and be good at other tactics so that when you face someone who is well matched against your normal plan, you can change that.


----------



## JowGaWolf

AngryHobbit said:


> I've now had some exposure to sparring - and I am convinced: it is necessary.


Welcome to the club.  I wouldn't know as much kung fu without sparring.  It's one thing to learn the forms and something totally different than trying to apply it.  Sparring brings timing and strategy into the equation and learning how to apply a technique in the context of that timing and strategy is vital if anyone hopes to be able to apply advanced techniques. 



Encho said:


> but sparring and actually fighting at least in my experience are nowhere the same.


It's close enough to make you a better fighter.  I don't think I've ever seen anyone suck at actually fighting because they sparred.  Sparring allows a student to train some of the same mechanics that are used in real fighting.  For example, someone who would assume that I wouldn't sweep them in a real fight will quickly learn differently.  The mechanics that I use to sweep in sparring are the same mechanics I would use in a real fight.  The only real difference in terms of a sweep is the intensity level at which its done.


----------



## donald1

I love sparring! All those attacks you threw. The times you missed, we're blocked or just plain knocked your opponent flat on their backside. Just thinking about all those bruises you got brings back memories. 

Also... What do you mean class sparring isn't real sparring??? If I throw a punch at my opponent and they decide NOT to block it hurts!


----------



## JR 137

kempodisciple said:


> Having a real hard time deciding between 'agree' and 'funny'


Give it a dislike


----------



## Encho

JowGaWolf said:


> Welcome to the club.  I wouldn't know as much kung fu without sparring.  It's one thing to learn the forms and something totally different than trying to apply it.  Sparring brings timing and strategy into the equation and learning how to apply a technique in the context of that timing and strategy is vital if anyone hopes to be able to apply advanced techniques.
> 
> 
> It's close enough to make you a better fighter.  I don't think I've ever seen anyone suck at actually fighting because they sparred.  Sparring allows a student to train some of the same mechanics that are used in real fighting.  For example, someone who would assume that I wouldn't sweep them in a real fight will quickly learn differently.  The mechanics that I use to sweep in sparring are the same mechanics I would use in a real fight.  The only real difference in terms of a sweep is the intensity level at which its done.


Your miles may vary, actually fighting and sparring are just two different animals at least sparring in a gym and actually having a street encounter at least in my experience. Now after over 18 years on forums these rehash arguments are really beating dead horses with different chess pieces IF YOU feel it works for you and your methodology and frame of reference and hold that opinion then you have that right however myself and others find sparring not revelant to actual combative self defense and just a tool in a tool box. Fortunately or unfortunately I really don't spend much time on forums responding so forgive me if I don't respond back to your initial post.


----------



## JR 137

I view MA like the science classes I teach...

Basics, forms/kata, and prearranged drills are the textbook and lecture sections of class.  Sparring and resistive partner work are the lab portion.  The lab portion of class is where you take that textbook information and apply it by testing it.

I’ve seen people do great with the textbook stuff. Then they’re clueless when they get to the lab portion.  I’ve seen people look great with the basics,  kata, hitting bags and pads, etc.; then it all epically falls apart in free-sparring.  Sparring forces you to constantly adapt.  And it teaches you to take a hit and keep going, and to keep going when things didn’t exactly work out like you thought they would and/or should.

People can argue sparring’s carry-over to an actual street encounter, but at the very least learning the lessons I mentioned above give you a far better chance than just doing basics and kata against the air and all compliant drills with no resistance; at least sparring teaches you that not everything is going to go as planned no matter how pretty you’ve made it look.


----------



## Buka

I couldn't have trained with ninety percent of my instructors if I didn't spar/roll. A class maybe, or a seminar, but not actual training. What a shame that would have been, at least to me.

To me, without some form of sparring, it's like making it to third base, and getting stranded there.

Spoke to a buddy's son about ten years ago. I had hooked him up with a dojo and he called several years later, still at it. In passing he said that he really loved watching boxing and MMA now, because he knew what he was actually seeing. I had never thought about that. He's got a pretty good point.


----------



## Martial D

Encho said:


> Your miles may vary, actually fighting and sparring are just two different animals at least sparring in a gym and actually having a street encounter at least in my experience. Now after over 18 years on forums these rehash arguments are really beating dead horses with different chess pieces IF YOU feel it works for you and your methodology and frame of reference and hold that opinion then you have that right however myself and others find sparring not revelant to actual combative self defense and just a tool in a tool box. Fortunately or unfortunately I really don't spend much time on forums responding so forgive me if I don't respond back to your initial post.


It's a tool in a tool box Insomuch as actual doing any activity you want to get good at is a tool to get good at doing it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JR 137 said:


> Give it a dislike


Good idea. I need to stand up for my fellow forum members.


----------



## drop bear

My advice

You know when people say sparring isn't about winning and loosing?

They are wrong. Not trying to win protects your ego from loss.

It is emotionally devastating to try as hard as you can for something important and to fail. Sparing you can do that twenty times a night every night until trying as hard as you can becomes automatic and loosing drives you rather than destroys you.

In martial arts it is that lesson learned that will make you ferocious and humble.


----------



## JR 137

drop bear said:


> My advice
> 
> You know when people say sparring isn't about winning and loosing?
> 
> They are wrong. Not trying to win protects your ego from loss.
> 
> It is emotionally devastating to try as hard as you can for something important and to fail. Sparing you can do that twenty times a night every night until trying as hard as you can becomes automatic and loosing drives you rather than destroys you.
> 
> In martial arts it is that lesson learned that will make you ferocious and humble.


Depends on the night, circumstances, person, etc.  I’ve sparred plenty of times where where my goal was to do a specific thing; be it to work my jab, stay in a specific stance, only step forward while blocking, and so on.  Or only genuinely stopping a specific attack or stop bringing my head down when I move to in and to my right (something that’s been plaguing me lately for some odd reason).  Basically, forcing myself to do something that needs work.  When I’m in that mindset I “lose” 90% of the time of you don’t know what I’m actually doing.  Without doing that, I constantly do the same thing every single time and won’t realistically ever improve.

I guess winning needs to be defined.  I’ve got no problem with losing on a traditional scoreboard if I’m working on something specific.  If winning means I accomplished the goal I set forward, then yeah, I’m out to win every time.  And I’m not emotionally devastated when I don’t accomplish it.  I get pretty aggravated with myself, but definitely not an emotional breakdown by any means.

Except that one night a week where I lock myself in the locker room and cry in the corner for an hour and a half until I realize I’m still mommy’s special little boy.  It’s all good again once she says she’s proud of me no matter what.


----------



## AngryHobbit

donald1 said:


> I love sparring! All those attacks you threw. The times you missed, we're blocked or just plain knocked your opponent flat on their backside. Just thinking about all those bruises you got brings back memories.
> 
> Also... What do you mean class sparring isn't real sparring??? If I throw a punch at my opponent and they decide NOT to block it hurts!


I was thinking about the difference about sparring and an actual street fight. And I don't mean to minimize the importance of it at all - or the effectiveness. I was just thinking of the two differences between sparring and, say, a brawl that might erupt next to you at a bar or a club. One, sparring is planned. You go to class, your instructor says, "We are having a sparring class today". Or you ask, "Hey, sensei, my partner and I would like to spar today." You choose to spar. You might not always have a choice before getting pulled into a fight. You can choose not to participate and make your way out of it as quickly as you can. But you don't get to pick the exact time it might erupt around you.

Two, in sparring, you can work with your partner on specific attacks, you can impose rules (no head punches today), you can ask to speed up or slow down. No such option in a street fight. You can't exactly say to some thug looking for trouble, "I am sorry, I have a nasty cold today, you mind dialing back your punches a little?"


----------



## AngryHobbit

JR 137 said:


> Give it a dislike


Noooo! I'll pout and cry! I am so fragile and delicate - you can't do this to me!


----------



## AngryHobbit

Buka said:


> I couldn't have trained with ninety percent of my instructors if I didn't spar/roll. A class maybe, or a seminar, but not actual training. What a shame that would have been, at least to me.
> 
> To me, without some form of sparring, it's like making it to third base, and getting stranded there.
> 
> Spoke to a buddy's son about ten years ago. I had hooked him up with a dojo and he called several years later, still at it. In passing he said that he really loved watching boxing and MMA now, because he knew what he was actually seeing. I had never thought about that. He's got a pretty good point.



Definitely a good point. Of course, the other side of it is - I can no longer watch movie fights with even a suggestion of suspension of disbelief. I know those preposterous 15-minute choreographed pounding sessions are total BS. Like anyone has time for that... 

Of course... I'll still watch Lara Croft beat up a dozen guys while jumping off a chandelier.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Personally I don't think sparring is essential. I competed in boxing, kickboxing and mma for over 15 years and I sparred maybe 4 times during that entire time. The rest of it was simply drills and pads. But yes sparring can be fun and a good stress reliever.
> 
> Also 14 oz isn't anywhere near the lightest proffesional fighters in boxing/ kickboxing mainly use 10 oz for fights and some use 8 oz but the smallest is 4 oz which is used by mma fighters (and some Muay Thai are starting to use that size as well)


I'd argue you're getting the benefit she's talking about from your matches. Those are sparring, too. Feedback from your first fight fed into the next, and so on.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Encho said:


> My take on sparring is a lot of people rush into sparring without going over their fundamentals and drilling them,so when they actually spar it is just haymakers and sloppiness. I personally find drills to be better for reaction and build your resistance gradually without resorting to sloppiness.
> I think sparring has its place，mostly more as a conditioning but sparring and actually fighting at least in my experience are nowhere the same.


Agreed. When I started my program, I decided sparring needed to be part of it - it was a rare part of my Aikido training over the years. But I didn't want folks just blundering in. So I've progressed folks through drills to get them there. With sporadic attendance and a small program, it's taken me longer to get everyone to where some actual sparring happens. That's food for thought for me - I don't think it should take that long, so I've been making adjustments to how and what I teach, including the sequence, to get there earlier.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> My advice
> 
> You know when people say sparring isn't about winning and loosing?
> 
> They are wrong. Not trying to win protects your ego from loss.
> 
> It is emotionally devastating to try as hard as you can for something important and to fail. Sparing you can do that twenty times a night every night until trying as hard as you can becomes automatic and loosing drives you rather than destroys you.
> 
> In martial arts it is that lesson learned that will make you ferocious and humble.


I agree with the principle, though sparring isn't always win-lose. I see sparring as including two things. One is almost like a drill, except there's not the rigid framework of a drill. That version isn't win-lose, but is about working on specific skills (like when I decide I'll just be defending, or if I tell a student they're only allowed to use round attacks). The other is about skill testing, and in that case we should be trying to win, because that's the only way you can fail, and failing is necessary input.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> I view MA like the science classes I teach...
> 
> Basics, forms/kata, and prearranged drills are the textbook and lecture sections of class.  Sparring and resistive partner work are the lab portion.  The lab portion of class is where you take that textbook information and apply it by testing it.
> 
> I’ve seen people do great with the textbook stuff. Then they’re clueless when they get to the lab portion.  I’ve seen people look great with the basics,  kata, hitting bags and pads, etc.; then it all epically falls apart in free-sparring.  Sparring forces you to constantly adapt.  And it teaches you to take a hit and keep going, and to keep going when things didn’t exactly work out like you thought they would and/or should.
> 
> People can argue sparring’s carry-over to an actual street encounter, but at the very least learning the lessons I mentioned above give you a far better chance than just doing basics and kata against the air and all compliant drills with no resistance; at least sparring teaches you that not everything is going to go as planned no matter how pretty you’ve made it look.


I've also seen folks who struggled with the basics, not quite understanding the point of some of them, until things got more "live" for them (resisted training and sparring).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> Welcome to the club.  I wouldn't know as much kung fu without sparring.  It's one thing to learn the forms and something totally different than trying to apply it.  Sparring brings timing and strategy into the equation and learning how to apply a technique in the context of that timing and strategy is vital if anyone hopes to be able to apply advanced techniques.
> 
> 
> It's close enough to make you a better fighter.  I don't think I've ever seen anyone suck at actually fighting because they sparred.  Sparring allows a student to train some of the same mechanics that are used in real fighting.  For example, someone who would assume that I wouldn't sweep them in a real fight will quickly learn differently.  The mechanics that I use to sweep in sparring are the same mechanics I would use in a real fight.  The only real difference in terms of a sweep is the intensity level at which its done.


I think sparring is more necessary (and more directly applicable) to striking. The movements and attacks in sparring are (at least part of the time) reasonably close to what will happen when someone tries to punch you on the street. That's not so true with grappling. What two Judoka do against each other in sparring/randori isn't going to bear much resemblance to any likely attack on the street. To get that for grappling, you have to manufacture drills that approximate those attacks, so you can practice those mechanics. I still think the resisted training has value on that side, but the direct application of sparring is less clear.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kempodisciple said:


> Nothing at all against your fighting style, or style in general, but I love sparring people like you. My goal is to outstrips strikers (which works sometimes, sometimes it doesnt), or move in a way to tempt grapples to try grabbing my while I slip in an out of grappling range. That's my speciality, and I have to say I am really good at it.
> 
> It's important to practice and be good at other tactics so that when you face someone who is well matched against your normal plan, you can change that.


This is where I hope to lead them, as well - the part about controlling by being able to change games and distance, though each individual will have their own preferences for how to do that. Any art/system that combines striking and grappling has this option. Because I'm not solely a striker, I don't need to get into striking range - I can move across it to grappling range. And because I'm not solely a grappler, I don't have to get to grappling range - I can hang out in striking power zones if I want.


----------



## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I've also seen folks who struggled with the basics, not quite understanding the point of some of them, until things got more "live" for them (resisted training and sparring).


Absolutely.  Somehow I forgot to add I’ve seen people look horrible during kihon and kata, then tear it up during sparring while actually using the art’s techniques.

Case in point - during line drills, my roundhouse kick sucks.  I struggle to get it to waist height, I don’t pivot my plant foot enough, I over-turn my body, and I either lean too far back or am standing too upright.  During sparring I can kick people about my height in the head, and I don’t have any of the other issues.  It actually looks more textbook during sparring than it does when I’m trying to make it textbook during kihon.  I think I’m overthinking it during kihon and just letting it fly when I’ve got the opportunity during sparring.

That’s the exception though.  I’m far better during kihon with everything else.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> You know when people say sparring isn't about winning and loosing?
> 
> They are wrong.


sparring is about learning. Competitive sparring is about winning and loosing.  I've done both.  Sparring to learn is about learning how to use the techniques that you train.  You'll either get it right or you'll get it wrong. When you get it right it's validation that you understand the technique or understand one application of it.  When you get it wrong, it means you need to go back and figure it out.  I take kung fu so I'm not limited to just basic kicking and punching.  I have a deck of crazy techniques to figure out and there's no way to figure it out if I'm focused on winning or losing.  

When I focus on winning or losing then I won't take the risks that I need to learn because those risk will have a high failure rate during the learning process.  For me not trying to win during sparring isn't big deal.  There's no ego to protect because I understand that I'm learning.  For me I see it the opposite way.  People try to win when they should be learning because of their ego.  They don't want to "look bad" so they focus on winning and not focus on trying to learn techniques.  

No one hops on a bicycle for the first time in their lives and think "I'm going to win."  They hop it understanding that they first have learn how to ride the bicycle and they understand that they will fail before they get good.  I see sparring in a similar light.


----------



## JR 137

AngryHobbit said:


> Noooo! I'll pout and cry! I am so fragile and delicate - you can't do this to me!


That was in response to kempodisciple’s post saying he didn’t know whether to rate my post funny or agree.

Which way should I go with yours; agree so you can be happy, or disagree so I can give your pride the death blow?

I’m still assessing my overall mood today, so I’ll have to get back to you on that


----------



## JR 137

JowGaWolf said:


> sparring is about learning. Competitive sparring is about winning and loosing.  I've done both.  Sparring to learn is about learning how to use the techniques that you train.  You'll either get it right or you'll get it wrong. When you get it right it's validation that you understand the technique or understand one application of it.  When you get it wrong, it means you need to go back and figure it out.  I take kung fu so I'm not limited to just basic kicking and punching.  I have a deck of crazy techniques to figure out and there's no way to figure it out if I'm focused on winning or losing.
> 
> When I focus on winning or losing then I won't take the risks that I need to learn because those risk will have a high failure rate during the learning process.  For me not trying to win during sparring isn't big deal.  There's no ego to protect because I understand that I'm learning.  For me I see it the opposite way.  People try to win when they should be learning because of their ego.  They don't want to "look bad" so they focus on winning and not focus on trying to learn techniques.
> 
> No one hops on a bicycle for the first time in their lives and think "I'm going to win."  They hop it understanding that they first have learn how to ride the bicycle and they understand that they will fail before they get good.  I see sparring in a similar light.


My thoughts exactly.  Then again, you could look at working a technique and making it work regardless of the outcome of everything else during that session as a win.  So I guess by that definition, I’m trying to win every time.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I've also seen folks who struggled with the basics, not quite understanding the point of some of them, until things got more "live" for them (resisted training and sparring).


I see this happen a lot with kung fu.  Ones level of understanding using a technique in sparring tends to bleed into the form when doing the form.


----------



## AngryHobbit

JR 137 said:


> That was in response to kempodisciple’s post saying he didn’t know whether to rate my post funny or agree.
> 
> Which way should I go with yours; agree so you can be happy, or disagree so I can give your pride the death blow?
> 
> I’m still assessing my overall mood today, so I’ll have to get back to you on that



Somewhere, gpseymour is rolling over laughing at the idea of my being delicate and fragile. Based on the smiley face I hope you realized I was being silly.


----------



## AngryHobbit

JR 137 said:


> Absolutely.  Somehow I forgot to add I’ve seen people look horrible during kihon and kata, then tear it up during sparring while actually using the art’s techniques.
> 
> Case in point - during line drills, my roundhouse kick sucks.  I struggle to get it to waist height, I don’t pivot my plant foot enough, I over-turn my body, and I either lean too far back or am standing too upright.  During sparring I can kick people about my height in the head, and I don’t have any of the other issues.  It actually looks more textbook during sparring than it does when I’m trying to make it textbook during kihon.  I think I’m overthinking it during kihon and just letting it fly when I’ve got the opportunity during sparring.
> 
> That’s the exception though.  I’m far better during kihon with everything else.



A slightly different take on this for me. I am not a great striker. I am an atrocious kicker - I have a skeletal defect that makes high kicks excruciatingly painful for me, which sort of defeats the purpose - they aren't supposed to be more painful to me than to my opponent. ;-) So, I also look terrible in drills - just for a different reason. But in sparring, I feel more at ease exploring what I can do within my limitations, or despite them. Sure, cracking someone on the shin doesn't look as impressive as kicking someone in the head (I am in awe of people who can do really high kicks), but it's effective. It's still an "ow" for the opponent. It's still a point to me. It's still a sneak past someone's defenses. It helps me realize I too can be formidable in my own way.


----------



## AngryHobbit

JR 137 said:


> I think your teacher sucks.  Waiting all that time to spar, then sparring non-contact and all.  Run, don’t walk away! You’ve found yourself a classic McDojo.  Next thing you’re going to tell me you can’t leave due to some sacred bond or some cult-like thing.  Cut your losses and never see that clown again.  You’ll thank me some day, trust me.


Oh, I switched instructors some time ago. The last two years, I've worked with the one who encourages sparring and works it into the overall training very well. 

My old instructor was good - in his own way. But I think he was overly attached to tradition, form, and more staged, static training. He taught me a lot, and I am grateful. But I do like the change.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

AngryHobbit said:


> Somewhere, gpseymour is rolling over laughing at the idea of my being delicate and fragile. Based on the smiley face I hope you realized I was being silly.


What are you talking about, my delicate flower?


----------



## AngryHobbit

gpseymour said:


> What are you talking about, my delicate flower?


That's delicate FEMININE flower. And don't you forget it.


----------



## marques

drop bear said:


> You know when people say sparring isn't about winning and loosing?
> 
> They are wrong. Not trying to win protects your ego from loss.


It depends what do we want from sparring. For me, ‘everyday sparring’ has goals other than beating my opponent.

What if my opponent is weaker than me? I will try to ‘beat him’ with hands down, or using only the technique of the day, or setting up for the technique of the day... and probably I will get more hits than deliver. But I learn in the process (ideally).
What if he is stronger than me? I will just try to avoid his strengths, priority on defence, learn their tricks...

Sparring for winning is only a light contact (or more controlled) fight. It is fun when the opponents have similar skill (and weight), which is hard to have in most of gyms... Competing (sparring for winning) when levels are miles apart is just weird, IMO.


----------



## AngryHobbit

drop bear said:


> My advice
> 
> You know when people say sparring isn't about winning and loosing?
> 
> They are wrong. Not trying to win protects your ego from loss.
> 
> It is emotionally devastating to try as hard as you can for something important and to fail. Sparing you can do that twenty times a night every night until trying as hard as you can becomes automatic and loosing drives you rather than destroys you.
> 
> In martial arts it is that lesson learned that will make you ferocious and humble.



I found during most of my sparring I am not fighting my opponent as much as I am fighting myself. All jokes aside, I am actually a very non-violent person. So, making a decision to actually hit someone, even as part of an exercise, is always a tough one for me. I understand it is important and necessary. One of my instructors used to say, "When you practice self-defense, you have to determine where your limit lies. What are you willing to do to protect yourself, your loved ones, or even a total stranger?" Having had some experience with real-life assaults, I know my adrenaline gets me where I need to be, but pounding someone in a training situation is still hard.


----------



## JR 137

AngryHobbit said:


> I found during most of my sparring I am not fighting my opponent as much as I am fighting myself. All jokes aside, I am actually a very non-violent person. So, making a decision to actually hit someone, even as part of an exercise, is always a tough one for me. I understand it is important and necessary. One of my instructors used to say, "When you practice self-defense, you have to determine where your limit lies. What are you willing to do to protect yourself, your loved ones, or even a total stranger?" Having had some experience with real-life assaults, I know my adrenaline gets me where I need to be, but pounding someone in a training situation is still hard.


In sparring and actual competition, I’m not competing against my opponent; I’m competing against myself.  My goal is to do better than I thought I was capable of.  Sometimes my opponent really sucks and beating him is completely worthless.  Sometimes my opponent is far better than me and thinking I’m actually going to win is stupid.  I can’t control the level of competition, I can only hope to control how fare.


----------



## pgsmith

Headhunter said:


> Personally I don't think sparring is essential. I competed in boxing, kickboxing and mma for over 15 years and I sparred maybe 4 times during that entire time. The rest of it was simply drills and pads. But yes sparring can be fun and a good stress reliever.


  Gerry already beat me to this answer, but I still have to put in my two cent's worth ... competing is sparring, sparring is competing. They are different ways of training, and will teach slightly different lessons, but they are basically the same thing. They are physical confrontations with rules applied. The rules can vary quite a bit depending upon who, where, and what art you're sparring or competing in, but it is still a physical confrontation with rules.



AngryHobbit said:


> I was thinking about the difference about sparring and an actual street fight.


  I see a great many martial artists say things like this, but it makes me wonder how many of them have any idea how different the two are. Sparring, or competing, are good and vital ways to increase a person's martial abilities. A fight in the street (in my experience growing up in the wrong part of the city) is much more about a your ability to avoid physical confrontation through de-escalation (or good running skills!) and your ability to inflict overwhelming damage to your opponent as quickly as possible if physical confrontation is unavoidable. I've seen (and been involved in) a great many fights, and they NEVER involved a protracted one on one encounter. Physical confrontation was usually not initiated unless the numbers were on the side of the aggressor, and overwhelming and immediate damage would often keep the rest of them from getting involved. That's not something that is taught in either sparring or competing.
  Don't get me wrong, sparring (or competing) is an essential tool in the martial artist's tool box, and it will allow one to more easily handle the aggressive drunk on the street. Someone that has never been hit will worry a lot about getting hit. 



AngryHobbit said:


> Definitely a good point. Of course, the other side of it is - I can no longer watch movie fights with even a suggestion of suspension of disbelief. I know those preposterous 15-minute choreographed pounding sessions are total BS. Like anyone has time for that...


  You have to definitely put movies into perspective in order to enjoy the fight scenes. I have had conversations with fight choreographers about reality in fight scenes, and was told point blank that reality is boring.   Movie fight scenes are artistic endeavors that are designed to excite the audience. They have nothing to do with reality (or often times physics!) and have to be enjoyed with that thought in mind. Makes it better for me when I firmly remind myself of that!


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I agree with the principle, though sparring isn't always win-lose. I see sparring as including two things. One is almost like a drill, except there's not the rigid framework of a drill. That version isn't win-lose, but is about working on specific skills (like when I decide I'll just be defending, or if I tell a student they're only allowed to use round attacks). The other is about skill testing, and in that case we should be trying to win, because that's the only way you can fail, and failing is necessary input.



Yeah not always. And obviously against the right people.


----------



## drop bear

AngryHobbit said:


> I found during most of my sparring I am not fighting my opponent as much as I am fighting myself. All jokes aside, I am actually a very non-violent person. So, making a decision to actually hit someone, even as part of an exercise, is always a tough one for me. I understand it is important and necessary. One of my instructors used to say, "When you practice self-defense, you have to determine where your limit lies. What are you willing to do to protect yourself, your loved ones, or even a total stranger?" Having had some experience with real-life assaults, I know my adrenaline gets me where I need to be, but pounding someone in a training situation is still hard.



Yes it is hard. That is why people come up with these ways of making it easier. 

You have a duty in sparring to lift the game of the person you are sparring against. That is why you are there. They have a duty to lift yours.

If you can't spar in a professional manner. You go too hard. You go too soft. You have too much investment in your emotions. You can't help the person you have a duty to help.


----------



## AngryHobbit

I find it interesting how many people here mentioned sparring in conjunction with competition. I have nothing against competition - and I have tremendous respect for people who compete. It has its own set of challenges, and I respect that. 

But I'd like to clarify - I am in a non-competitive art, and I prefer it that way. So, any sparring I do is solely for the purpose of improving my self-defense skills instead of being a fainting heroine. There is still an element of competition to it - as in who can get to whom first and how well without getting pounded. But the focus is - how well can I learn to do this to make it effective if I were in a life-threatening situation?


----------



## AngryHobbit

drop bear said:


> Yes it is hard. That is why people come up with these ways of making it easier.
> 
> You have a duty in sparring to lift the game of the person you are sparring against. That is why you are there. They have a duty to lift yours.
> 
> If you can't spar in a professional manner. You go too hard. You go too soft. You have too much investment in your emotions. You can't help the person you have a duty to help.


My emotions are here to stay. But I do work hard to get them to work for me, when I need them, where I need them. I am very fond of my inner Hulk, and I enjoy learning how to let him out to play at the right time in the right place.


----------



## AngryHobbit

pgsmith said:


> A fight in the street (in my experience growing up in the wrong part of the city) is much more about a your ability to avoid physical confrontation through de-escalation (or good running skills!) and your ability to inflict overwhelming damage to your opponent as quickly as possible if physical confrontation is unavoidable. I've seen (and been involved in) a great many fights, and they NEVER involved a protracted one on one encounter. Physical confrontation was usually not initiated unless the numbers were on the side of the aggressor, and overwhelming and immediate damage would often keep the rest of them from getting involved. That's not something that is taught in either sparring or competing.



You know, for some reason this reminded me of the first two times I fought off someone successfully. To my advantage, in both cases, my assailant was drunk and there was only one of him. The first time I was 10, walking to school early in the morning in the middle of winter, when it was still dark. The idiot grabbed me from behind - I have no idea why, because I was one of those little nerdy kids with a HUGE book bag on my back. I knew nothing of self-defense or martial arts at the time - I just twisted and shoved with my ginormous book bag as hard as I could, and the dude slipped and fell on his ***. 

The other time I was 13 and fought the guy off with a high-heeled shoe and Soviet-produced hairspray. I don't remember the details, but as I bolted away, I do remember him screaming. I hope that hairspray left him blind for life.

I often thought about those two times when I started training - almost two decades after the second incident. Somehow, those kinds of fights NEVER make it into any movie EVER. Or not even into self-defense videos.


----------

