# How much of the Bujinkan was actually used in ancient Japan?



## kip42 (Feb 26, 2011)

Is this guy full of beans? I just want to make sure I dont train in another "commando krav maga" style of fighting... I wanted some opinions from those of you that have been doing this a long time. Where can I find the TenChiJin? Some of the best instructors in martial arts that I have worked with have trained in the Bujinkan.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35175&page=1&pp=15

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-46037.html?


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## Hudson69 (Feb 26, 2011)

Based off of my experiences some of what he has said rings a bell.  It was hardcore training in 1989 and a kinder gentler systems in 2007.


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## jks9199 (Feb 26, 2011)

Kip -- you seem obsessed with finding an art with some sort of "proof" that it's a real, effective combative system.  I would note that the folks over at Bullshido have a rather absolutist view -- and often aren't exactly open to anything they disagree with.  (And may not be as right as they think they are...)

There are questions about the Bujinkan and all the arts derived from Takamatsu's teachings.  But there are people today USING those teachings for real, in LE, in the military, as bodyguards, and as contractors in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.  You can say the same thing about many arts.  And the simple reality is that there massive problems "proving" anything across the cultures and histories involved.  Hatsumi is, quite understandably, whether they're fraudulent or true (though the reasoning changes) reluctant to send scrolls and documents for examination.

In the end, you'll have to assess for yourself not only the system but the training involved, and whether it fits your needs or not.

You can find versions of the Ten Chi Jen online; by chance I was scouting around earlier today for them based on some comments I read.  I found examples ranging from simple listings to a much more detailed version HERE.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Feb 26, 2011)

I have no idea about how Bujinkan is. I cannot say.
I have seen Hatsumi duing demonstrations. he is increadialy good martial artist and I have been reading about Takamatsu. he seems to be the real deal. the last living shinobe I heard somewere.
ultimatly it would be hard to prove everything. even japanese can't say for sure.
but you did say Takamatsu is soke of kukushin ryu ha? that is one ninjutsu liniage.
as of the rest of ninjutsu liniage. I believe historically it was past down from teacher to student.
and many of the ninjutsu liniage was lost when noone past on the teachings.
i believe it was a good idea to combine the ryu and the formation of bujinkan.
without bujinkan ninjutsu would not be were it is today.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 27, 2011)

kip42 said:


> Is this guy full of beans? I just want to make sure I dont train in another "commando krav maga" style of fighting... I wanted some opinions from those of you that have been doing this a long time. Where can I find the TenChiJin? Some of the best instructors in martial arts that I have worked with have trained in the Bujinkan.
> 
> http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35175&page=1&pp=15
> 
> http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-46037.html?


 
Chuck's article has been discussed many times, with some pertinent points being made, and others less so. But really, you're looking at the wrong thing here based on your posts and requests.

In terms of how much of the Bujinkan was used in Ancient Japan, well, none of it. And that's nothing to do with any percieved veracity or otherwise of the traditions that make the Bujinkan system up, it's more to do with the fact that the Bujinkan teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is a modern system comprised of the lessons taken from the various arts passed down to Hatsumi from Takamatsu, as well as a few other systems. As such, it didn't exist in ancient Japan to be used.

If you really want to look at the individual systems themselves, okay, here we go:

Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu was said to have been used in the Iga region after being brought to Japan by Yo Gyokko in the early 12th Century. It spawned a number of other arts, such as Gyokushin Ryu, Izumo Ryu, and Gikan Ryu. In the history of Gikan Ryu, the 10th Soke was said to have been wounded in battle by a musket shot in the mid-1800's (the battle is known as Tenchigumi no Ran), and as a result of this wound he met Ishitani Sensei, Soke of Kukishinden Ryu, who tended to him. Ishitani then learnt Gikan Ryu, and passed it to Takamatsu along with Kukishinden Ryu.

Koto Ryu is known for it's battlefield tactics as a disrupting force, and anti-siege methods. It's combative techniques are based on running through a battle. Togakure Ryu's history tells us that it comes directly from the battlefield experience of Daisuke Nishina, although it later developed to a system of espionage, with it's taijutsu based more on escape, and how to handle being discovered or caught. Kumogakure follows similar ideals.

Shinden Fudo Ryu was the "named" system that Toda Sensei taught at his dojo. It's history also teaches that it comes from a turbulent time, filled with battle.

Kukishinden Ryu is a system whose origins are based in military usage, and is very well known as a combatively-oriented system. Takagi Yoshin Ryu is from the period of peacetime, but is also very well respected for it's efficacy.

Of course, in each of these cases the sources we are looking at are those of the Ryu-ha teachings themselves, and how much you want to follow them depends on your take on things (a big part of being a part of the Ryu is to follow the teachings, by the way, even when not entirely accurate. For example, Togakure Ryu is not likely to be as old as is claimed, but the school teaches a certain history, so that is taught and followed. This is far from unique to Bujinkan traditions, and runs through most Japanese arts). So let's look a little more recently.

Takamatsu Sensei spent about 10 years in China early in the last century. During that time, he experienced a number of challenge matches, and other encounters, so what he trained in was certainly "battle-tested" that way. And, as JKS pointed out, many members of the Bujinkan in a modern setting are using what they learn in their jobs, such as military, law enforcement, security, and so on. The catch is, of course, that the strength of the training is found, not in the material, but in the strength of the training. It can be trained in a way that is borderline dangerous from a combative standpoint, through to one of the most efficient, powerful methods around.

But let's get to the crux of this, shall we?

Martial arts are methods of instilling movement, skill, lessons, strategies, tactics, and so on. The method used for that is the use of combatively-themed techniques. However, that does not mean that the techniques are combatively optimal, or even combatively effective. They're not meant  to be taken and simply transplanted from one environment (the training hall) to another (a real encounter). Simply put, the techniques are not "answers" to the problems of violent situations, they are expressions of the lessons, which may or may not be applied to different situations as required. Thinking of martial arts training as "if they do this, then I do that" is completely out of the arena of where they are supposed to be.

Frankly, you've been training for, what, 3 months? With probably a few weeks to a month off over Christmas/New Year? You have little to no experience to judge anything yet, I'm afraid. 

Really, when it comes to these arts being "battle tested", it has little to nothing to do with combative use, these old systems are more about teaching leaders of armies than soldiers. So by expecting them to be "battle tested" in the way you are, you're missing the point of what the arts actually teach. They are battle tested, but not in the way you think they might be. Honestly, I can only think of a handful of systems that do take their techniques from such ideas, the main one being Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. This is a form of Kenjutsu founded by Musashi Miyamoto, and it's techniques are taken from his experiences in real life duels.... of course, as you don't carry a sword around, this very true battle tested system, bought through blood and death, isn't going to be what you're after either. You may want to realise that, and talk with your instructor about any concerns you have. You're just not coming to it from a very realistic place right now.


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## shirobanryunotora (May 11, 2011)

kip42 said:


> Is this guy full of beans? I just want to make sure I dont train in another "commando krav maga" style of fighting... I wanted some opinions from those of you that have been doing this a long time. Where can I find the TenChiJin? Some of the best instructors in martial arts that I have worked with have trained in the Bujinkan.
> 
> http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35175&page=1&pp=15
> 
> http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-46037.html?


hi-in regards to the scrolls tenchijin a copy is sometimes given to students in japan and elsewhere usually after a dan grading-this is how i recvd mine-interesting to hear examples online via jks9199's search etc-pls note though that soke has stated that scrolls and such may have limited use-reasons vary-ryu may have parallel "verbal" traditions to pass on-written data may be in reverse or suchlike to fool unwary and keep students on their toes-highlighted tech.may just be trigger for rest of data to be passed on thus may not be the representative idea-may be mistranslated and so on-students of scrolls should only comment or train in such if such as soke agree has valid usage-pls keep all this in mind-till the next rr


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## Aiki Lee (May 22, 2011)

What need to you have for the tenchi jin at this time? I have no problem with technique collecters who want all the kata from the schools but unless you've been training a long time you probably won't understand the purpose of the kata even if you could correctly imitate the movements.


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