# For Sine Wave critics



## Earl Weiss (Feb 24, 2011)

Watch this vid. 

Solo  pattern and group pattern at the end. 

Does this fall into the category of what you find distateful about sine wave?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Watch this vid.
> 
> Solo  pattern and group pattern at the end.
> 
> Does this fall into the category of what you find distateful about sine wave?



I don't find those performances distasteful because of sine wave.  For example considering the section from about 3:50 to 4:00, he doesn't seem to be bobbing up and down too much.

At the risk of causing offence, it's demonstrations like this that I find distasteful:






It's far too bouncy and that seems to be what he's advocating (I know he's correcting people to go down, up, down during each movement).

It's the bounciness that I dislike.  I wonder if there's anyone out there that really practices both ways equally that could be measured (in an independent scientific way) that determines which has more power.  Of course, there's nothing to stop this person putting more power in to their favourite way, so it's hardly an unbiased test.

Maybe it could be done with a sample of people and take the average power, ignoring the extremes.

For my money, the bouncing up and down takes away from the stability of the stance which helps anchor the body/footing to transmit more power through the movement.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

One article I just found http://www.taekwon-do.ca/kicks/sineWave.html#_Toc35927968 seems to describe the benefit as two fold:

1) it forces you to bend your legs during stepping, keeping your body relaxed for more power generation

2) it uses "gravity to our advantage"

Now, the first one I can see the advantage.  However, when I step forward in ap kubi (long stance, front stance) I bend both knees during the step so that my head height remains constant.  I do this without bouncing (in fact it looks even less like bouncing than if I'd kept my legs straight) and get the same effect.

Gravity, seriously?  A drop of what 6" really adds that much power to the movement.  I can understand it if you're dropping/punching in the same direction, but dropping to the ground (as gravity does) while striking forward* surely can't make any discernible difference.

* Here's a question - do you do sine wave with rising/high blocks?   If so, do you adjust it so that gravity doesn't work against you (by dropping your weight while trying to lift your arm upward).


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

Sorry for the multiple posts, the more I'm reading about the more I'm finding.  In particular, I just found an article by Master Stuart Anslow - http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html

In it, he says (summary at the bottom):

_Based on the results obtained, there is no evidence to suggest that techniques performed using the sine wave are more powerful than techniques performed without the sine wave. On average, techniques done without the sine wave were found to be 0.16% more powerful than those done with it._

Of course, he only had one student of each style demonstrate and it could just be that one student punched harder.  But this paragraph was interesting:

_One subject punched harder with one hand using sine wave and harder with the other without it. The other punched harder without sine wave with both hands. On average, the force generated from a reserve punch in walking stance without using the sine wave was 4% higher than the same technique using sine wave._

Has anyone else done any similar testing?

Part of the reason for me asking is that I've heard a lot of people in the past seem to use science to justify sine wave movement, but I've never actually heard anyone quote a scientific paper "proving" it...


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## dancingalone (Feb 24, 2011)

The example posted by Mr. Weiss is much more tolerable than some examples found on Youtube that are held up as good examples of sine wave execution.  My only quibble is the robotic rhythm, but I understand that's just how things are preferred - to each his own.


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## igillman (Feb 24, 2011)

0.25% is a very small amount. Unfortunately they do not say what the margin of error is for the tests so we cannot say if the 0.25% is real or an artifact of the testing.

Based upon the type of testing they did I would be more inclined to put the 0.25% difference down to "margin of error".


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## dancingalone (Feb 24, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Gravity, seriously?  A drop of what 6" really adds that much power to the movement.  I can understand it if you're dropping/punching in the same direction, but dropping to the ground (as gravity does) while striking forward* surely can't make any discernible difference.



It's not necessarily the gravity that amplifies the strike.  You can create a sort of 'spiraling' power from coiling and uncoiling through your back down into the hips and legs.  That said my experience in this does not come from ITF TKD doctrine, so I don't pretend to speak for them.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 24, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It's not necessarily the gravity who amplifies the strike. You can create a sort of 'spiraling' power from coiling and uncoiling through your back down into the hips and legs. That said my experience in this does not come from ITF TKD doctrine, so I don't pretend to speak for them.


 
I think you are on the right track. The issue of "coiling and uncoiling through your back down into the hips and legs" can also be found in items on the net referencing "Closed Chain" or "Kinetic Linking."

I think people tend to lose sight of "Sine Wave" being a metaphor to describe the fact that the head does not remain level during the motion but moves up and down (down /up / down) in a smooth motion.  It is a metaphor like the term "L" stance is used to describe the position of the feet as being like an L. In fact, for the Chang Hon system it is nbot exactly like an L since the feet are not at 90 degrees. 

Sine wave is a product of the knee flexing and raising the heel for stationary techniques. It is not the goal, but what happens when you flex the Knees and / or raise the heel(s). 

As for the demo / explanation  by General Choi in the video posted, I can only offer that when we teach and slow things down to show how something should be done we often (At least I do) exagerate the motion to make a point. 

The reason I posted the video was because it showed GM Park Jung Tae who for many years, up until the 1990s the technical director and teacher of the ITF instructor courses. 

So, I submit that what he exhibits is correct as is the group pattern that is shown. Anything more is an exageration.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 24, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I wonder if there's anyone out there that really practices both ways equally that could be measured (in an independent scientific way) that determines which has more power. Of course, there's nothing to stop this person putting more power in to their favourite way, so it's hardly an unbiased test.
> 
> .


 
See this video which addresses Kinetic Linking. 

As I said above , "Sine Wave"  is a metaphorical term. While the term my be unique to General Choi, I think the concept is found in many places. This video is but one example.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> See this video which addresses Kinetic Linking.
> 
> As I said above , "Sine Wave"  is a metaphorical term. While the term my be unique to General Choi, I think the concept is found in many places. This video is but one example.



Missing video?  Looking forward to seeing it...


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

igillman said:


> 0.25% is a very small amount. Unfortunately they do not say what the margin of error is for the tests so we cannot say if the 0.25% is real or an artifact of the testing.
> 
> Based upon the type of testing they did I would be more inclined to put the 0.25% difference down to "margin of error".



I absolutely agree, I wasn't saying it was a conclusive study.  I just thought it was interesting that it obviously didn't come out on the side of an obvious benefit.

I hope someone has done a more serious/academic study...


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think you are on the right track. The issue of "coiling and uncoiling through your back down into the hips and legs" can also be found in items on the net referencing "Closed Chain" or "Kinetic Linking."



You mention a video on this, I'm looking forward to watching it - I think that will be very interesting!



Earl Weiss said:


> I think people tend to lose sight of "Sine Wave" being a metaphor to describe the fact that the head does not remain level during the motion but moves up and down (down /up / down) in a smooth motion.  It is a metaphor like the term "L" stance is used to describe the position of the feet as being like an L. In fact, for the Chang Hon system it is nbot exactly like an L since the feet are not at 90 degrees


 
OK, let me ask in another way then - do you/can you perform sine wave techniques keeping the head level?  Can you generate the same power doing it this way that you feel you can generate going obviously up and down through "Closed Chain" or "Kinetic Linking".



Earl Weiss said:


> As for the demo / explanation  by General Choi in the video posted, I can only offer that when we teach and slow things down to show how something should be done we often (At least I do) exagerate the motion to make a point.



I agree, but unfortunately some people seem to actually do it that way (maybe copying this over-exaggerated motion).  It's that huge movement that I personally dislike.



Earl Weiss said:


> The reason I posted the video was because it showed GM Park Jung Tae who for many years, up until the 1990s the technical director and teacher of the ITF instructor courses. So, I submit that what he exhibits is correct as is the group pattern that is shown. Anything more is an exageration.



As I said, it's not how I'd personally do it, but it does demonstrate doing it so much that it wouldn't irritate me watching it.  If I saw a Kukki-Taekwondo performing poomsae using the over-exaggerated sine wave I've mentioned above, I would barely be able to contain myself from yelling!


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## puunui (Feb 24, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vu6nvW5jE4 


I watched the entire video. I couldn't see any noticeable sine wave in any of it. The group performance, were those in the back really white belts? It didn't seem like it to me. What I did notice in the performance in the beginning was due more to my own prejudices I think, not understanding the technical subtleties of the ITF. For one thing, I was always taught, in both Shotokan and Taekwondo, to not let your arms and legs visibly "shake" during form execution. Also there was consistent slight loss of balance which would be a deduction if I were judging forms. The rhythm of the form demonstrated in the beginning also did not feel smooth for some reason. I also for whatever reason don't like that bent wrist position in ready stance. I was always taught to keep your wrist straight and aligned with your forearm. I think it is more my problem than anything else, but that is some of the things going on in my mind when watching the video.


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## Lord-Humongous (Feb 24, 2011)

Yep, I agree with Punni.  That's a non sine wave video.  Watch this for correct application of sine wave:





 
We do sine wave at my school and it should be quite obvious when done correctly.  I am not going to step into the argument of whether or not it actually increases power as I don't concern myself with this debate.  The fact is that 99% of patterns are a demonstration of the _art_ aspect of martial arts in my opinion.


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## puunui (Feb 24, 2011)

I have to say I don't like that. I also don't like what he does with his hands in between the arm movements.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 24, 2011)

lord-humungous said:


> Yep, I agree with Punni. That's a non sine wave video. Watch this for correct application of sine wave:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Are you acquanted with Sr. Master Phap Lu in the video? I see you are from Canada. 

I would be one of the last to critiques Sr. Master Phap Lu. However, I will still take GM Park Jung Tae's performance as "Correct' over his. But that's just me. I would submit that if your profile as a Blue Belt is correct you need a wider range of experience before you can state what is, and what is not "correct'  sine wave.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 24, 2011)

OOPS. sorry see:
http://www.break.com/index/anatomy-of-a-one-punch-knock-out.html

Kinetic linking part starts t about 1:10


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 24, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> OK, let me ask in another way then - do you/can you perform sine wave techniques keeping the head level? Can you generate the same power doing it this way that you feel you can generate going obviously up and down through "Closed Chain" or "Kinetic Linking".
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but unfortunately some people seem to actually do it that way (maybe copying this over-exaggerated motion). It's that huge movement that I personally dislike.


 

The issue of copying an exageration or the "If some is good more is better" Idea is a problem. The same thing happened with hip twist and I think one of the videos captures General Choi critiquing someone for the exagerated hip twist. 

Can you do the sine wave technique keeping the head level? No, then you would not have the up and down motion. Could you try to get the same effect by keeping the head level while flexing  the knees?  Perhaps, but why? I view it the same as boxers who flex their knees when they punch, there is a slight up and down motion.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 24, 2011)

another for sine wave critics. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WaIlVkCWDM&feature=related

Again, thoughts?


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## Lord-Humongous (Feb 24, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I would submit that if your profile as a Blue Belt is correct you need a wider range of experience before you can state what is, and what is not "correct'  sine wave.



Point noted. I am a red stripe & I have only been exposed to the way we do sine wave at my school.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

lord-humungous said:


> Yep, I agree with Punni.  That's a non sine wave video.  Watch this for correct application of sine wave:



This is a perfect example of what I dislike about sine wave.  This is far too bouncy.  Also, I notice that the bounciness seems to stop about 90% of the way through the movement (earlier than I expected) so I wonder if the extra energy (by kinetic linking, although I haven't seen that video yet, or gravity) dissipates before impact.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> I have to say I don't like that. I also don't like what he does with his hands in between the arm movements.



Do you mean the hands bouncing up and down?  Or something else in particular?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I would submit that if your profile as a Blue Belt is correct you need a wider range of experience before you can state what is, and what is not "correct'  sine wave.



This is another thing I dislike about Sine Wave, it's some mythical technique that a blue belt should not have enough experience of before you can judge whether it's correct.

I always worry about mythical techniques like this (like Ki generation) where "you haven't been doing it long enough to get it, keep trying for many years and you will.

Out of interest, Earl, at what grade do you think he'd have enough experience to state what is and what is not correct?  Probably not a question you've thought of, but I guess there would be a cut off point when you looked at his profile and though "I disagree with him, but he has enough experience to make his own valid opinion".


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> OOPS. sorry see:
> http://www.break.com/index/anatomy-of-a-one-punch-knock-out.html
> 
> Kinetic linking part starts t about 1:10



Ah OK, I've seen that before (I have the whole documentary sitting on a hard drive somewhere).  However, that doesn't explain about the coiling/uncoiling we were discussing promoting kinetic linking.  

I also don't see how sine wave increases kinetic linking, this is just about effectively the power coming up every muscle/joint from the floor to the strike and I don't see how Sine Wave does that any more efficiently than non-Sine Wave. In fact, I'd say the reverse is true as you're using your having to relax some of those muscles used to push from floor to strike in order to drop from the high point of the sine wave.

Also, if it improved power like it's supposed to surely other combat sports (such as boxing or MMA) would have also started using it within their techniques?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> The issue of copying an exageration or the "If some is good more is better" Idea is a problem. The same thing happened with hip twist and I think one of the videos captures General Choi critiquing someone for the exagerated hip twist.



It's always a problem, but I think more so when you have a technique that there isn't as much widespread knowledge about (as this recent example of a blue belt/red tag not having enough experience to know if it's correct of not shows).



Earl Weiss said:


> Can you do the sine wave technique keeping the head level? No, then you would not have the up and down motion.



I did't know if you could do it by internally coiling/uncoiling the muscles, maybe of the core - so they have a sine wave pattern of contractions, without the rising and falling.



Earl Weiss said:


> Could you try to get the same effect by keeping the head level while flexing  the knees?  Perhaps, but why?



I'm just trying to get a grip on where the increase in power comes from...

As another question to you as a sine wave practitioner - do you notice an increase in power between sine wave and non-sine wave?  From Master Anslow's document it seems the power difference is negligible (and potentially non-sine wave is more powerful), but I wondered what YOU *feel*.

Also, say you hit a bag with testing equipment to measure power and it was found to not increase power (hypothetically), would you stop doing it?  Is it more important to you that you follow the founder of your kwan's wishes or that you teach your art in a way that's easier for students/most effective?



Earl Weiss said:


> I view it the same as boxers who flex their knees when they punch, there is a slight up and down motion.



Viewing these examples of punches at about 2:05 and 3:05 in this video they seem to drop before impact and then be rising up, rather than rising up then down in to the impact.

This I can understand - bending the knees (down) before punching (up) so that you're pushing with your legs in to the floor to get more kinetic linking.  It's the coming down as you punch as in sine-wave that seems counter-intuitive for me.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> another for sine wave critics.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WaIlVkCWDM&feature=related
> 
> Again, thoughts?



My first thought was "what the hell are you breathing like that for?".  Man alive, that's some noisy exhalation...

Anyway, still don't like it.  It's less pronounced than the previous video (posted by lord-humongous) but still a lot more pronounced than I'd like it ;-)


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> This is another thing I dislike about Sine Wave, it's some mythical technique that a blue belt should not have enough experience of before you can judge whether it's correct.
> 
> I always worry about mythical techniques like this (like Ki generation) where "you haven't been doing it long enough to get it, keep trying for many years and you will.
> 
> Out of interest, Earl, at what grade do you think he'd have enough experience to state what is and what is not correct? Probably not a question you've thought of, but I guess there would be a cut off point when you looked at his profile and though "I disagree with him, but he has enough experience to make his own valid opinion".


 
Not mythical at all. I think that as with many things, if a student (any student)  is only exposed to one way of doing things (not limited to sine wave) , virtualy every variation seems "wrong".  (as it happens I am well acquainted with his instructor.)

I have experienced this countless times as a student and instructor for countless items and it is one of the first concepts I cover when I do a seminar. 

I think the experience function is not about time in grade.  I have mentioned this before when it comes to things like length of time training. Is it 10 years of experience or the same experience for 10 years? 

Can I put a number on it? No. For instance if you train under 10 instructors all at the same school who all have the same GM since white belt, the experience may be far different that training in several states if you are in the USA plus afew countries and getting different perspectives. It will  also be different if you encounter different perspectives as a color belt or as a black belt. As a color belt it may be confusing. As  a Black Belt it may be enlightening.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Also, if it improved power like it's supposed to surely other combat sports (such as boxing or MMA) would have also started using it within their techniques?


 
They do. When they flex their knees while punching, the head rises and falls. That is the same thing. 

Bruce Lee describes his one and two inch punch with regard to raising the heel and flexing the knee. Same thing.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries;1369393 
 
 
Viewing these examples of punches at about 2:05 and 3:05 in [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mfn5As4G5o" said:
			
		

> this video[/URL] they seem to drop before impact and then be rising up, rather than rising up then down in to the impact.
> 
> .


 
I think that the relative position with the dumy seated and the head being higher than their head made rising up as they punched to reach the head a neccessity.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> As another question to you as a sine wave practitioner - do you notice an increase in power between sine wave and non-sine wave? From Master Anslow's document it seems the power difference is negligible (and potentially non-sine wave is more powerful), but I wondered what YOU *feel*.
> 
> Also, say you hit a bag with testing equipment to measure power and it was found to not increase power (hypothetically), would you stop doing it? Is it more important to you that you follow the founder of your kwan's wishes or that you teach your art in a way that's easier for students/most effective?
> 
> ...


 
I see flexing the knees which is the characteristic of Sine wave as a way to best employ the entire musculature of the body, including the legs to generate power in hand techniques. I do not see a conceptual difference between how I do this for TKD or how boxing coaches taught me to flex my knees, although TKD uses it for a much wider variety of hand techniques and postures than boxing. 

Mr. Anslow and I have agreed to disagree on many things. But where we agree and I think how others agree on this board is that testing is difficult at best. Are results affected by who is simply the better athlete?  If the same athlete does it, are results affected by what he is more comfortable with? 

As I indicated I see the sine wave in what the one punch knockout video shows and even the knee flexing in the other video notwithstanding the need to reach up and forward for the dummies head. 

While the metaphorical term may be uniqe to General Choi, the concept is not. 

So, the question is more like if all combat sports found power in hand techniques was greatest if the knees were not flexed and the head kept level, then yes I would have to re think it.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> My first thought was "what the hell are you breathing like that for?". Man alive, that's some noisy exhalation...
> 
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## MSUTKD (Feb 25, 2011)

Sine Wave, why not Cosine Wave?  This is just a misinterpretation and over-exaggeration of basic physics principles.  Basically, I believe, somebody took high school physics and drew some lofty conclusions and thus created dogma.  Non-physics people should not try to talk physics.   
If it is real why dont other sports use the same principle? Hmmmmmm.


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## dancingalone (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> My first thought was "what the hell are you breathing like that for?".  Man alive, that's some noisy exhalation...



That's nothing.  :ultracool

[yt]rqRJ4TuiUyA[/yt]


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Not mythical at all.



Sorry Earl, mythical was the wrong choice of word - I didn't mean any offence by it.

The feeling I was trying to convey was a type of technique where it's not obvious how it works.  There's some secret sauce that you can't just try it and it works.

I didn't mean to say that Sine Wave is hocus pocus; I don't personally like it but I'm open to being proved wrong...



Earl Weiss said:


> I think the experience function is not about time in grade.  I have mentioned this before when it comes to things like length of time training. Is it 10 years of experience or the same experience for 10 years?



This is a good point.  I was purely basing it off your "you're only X grade, how do you know what is correct" type of statement.  At the time (given that you referred to his profile rather than saying that you knew him direct) you seemed to indicate that grade was the only indicator (and following from that an approximate time in the art.

It could be that he'd trained at a few different dojang and learnt from a few different high ranking masters.  But you went from his grade so I just wondered if there was a cut-off point where you'd consider them to have done enough training to understand this technique/subtlety.



Earl Weiss said:


> Can I put a number on it? No. For instance if you train under 10 instructors all at the same school who all have the same GM since white belt, the experience may be far different that training in several states if you are in the USA plus afew countries and getting different perspectives. It will  also be different if you encounter different perspectives as a color belt or as a black belt. As a color belt it may be confusing. As  a Black Belt it may be enlightening.



OK, fair enough.  Thanks for taking the time to post this.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> They do. When they flex their knees while punching, the head rises and falls. That is the same thing. Bruce Lee describes his one and two inch punch with regard to raising the heel and flexing the knee. Same thing.



But from what I've seen of boxers, they seem to go down then up rather than down up down.  That's a key point in my mind as going up with the punch adds to the kinetic linking, coming down would seem not to.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I think that the relative position with the dumy seated and the head being higher than their head made rising up as they punched to reach the head a neccessity.



Maybe true... I'll have to try to find some more slow motion punches, maybe UFC punch knockouts (as they tend to slow motion them) might be good...


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I see flexing the knees which is the characteristic of Sine wave as a way to best employ the entire musculature of the body, including the legs to generate power in hand techniques. I do not see a conceptual difference between how I do this for TKD or how boxing coaches taught me to flex my knees, although TKD uses it for a much wider variety of hand techniques and postures than boxing.



If you were, for now, to go to a boxing gym and do a boxing style punch with a sine wave movement, do you think the boxers would consider it weird or concordant with how they punch?



Earl Weiss said:


> Mr. Anslow and I have agreed to disagree on many things. But where we agree and I think how others agree on this board is that testing is difficult at best. Are results affected by who is simply the better athlete?  If the same athlete does it, are results affected by what he is more comfortable with?



I absolutely agree and have said the same thing.  The only way to make this reasonable is a large enough sample and ignore the top and bottom values so the differences in individual athletes average out.



Earl Weiss said:


> As I indicated I see the sine wave in what the one punch knockout video shows and even the knee flexing in the other video notwithstanding the need to reach up and forward for the dummies head.



Maybe then we actually agree.  As I posted earlier, I think the first video in this thread was fine, so if you're considering that a good sine wave demonstration then I don't think we disagree.  Some of the other videos over-cook the movement and that is what I don't see in boxing/MMA/Kukki-taekwondo.



Earl Weiss said:


> While the metaphorical term may be uniqe to General Choi, the concept is not.
> 
> So, the question is more like if all combat sports found power in hand techniques was greatest if the knees were not flexed and the head kept level, then yes I would have to re think it.



The key for me though is not about the knees being flexed or head kept level (that min-thread was just a theoretical to see if it was about knee flexion or raising the bodyweight high) - the key is whether the impact happens on a down portion of the movement or up or straight?  For Kukki-Taekwondo I'd say straight.  For Boxing/MMA I'd say either straight or up.  For Sine Wave it seems to be down.

Do you agree with that assessment?  Or have I misunderstood the Sine Wave being down-up-down?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> That's nothing.  :ultracool
> 
> [yt]rqRJ4TuiUyA[/yt]



:lfao:

I was expecting it and the first time he did it, I thought he was breaking wind!  I thought that's why you posted it - because it was funny he farted as an exhalation.  Then he kept doing it - that made it funnier!

Thank you!


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

By the way, just wanted to say thank you Earl for starting this thread.  As well as seeing lots of examples of Sine Wave and getting to talk to people who do it and like doing it, I'm learning and getting to consider my opinions more fully.  Anway, thanks!


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## dancingalone (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> :lfao:
> 
> I was expecting it and the first time he did it, I thought he was breaking wind!  I thought that's why you posted it - because it was funny he farted as an exhalation.  Then he kept doing it - that made it funnier!
> 
> Thank you!



You've got to come by my karate class then.  You'll die laughing.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> One of the reasons patterns are done is to demonstrate to the observer / instructor that the technical parameters are being followed.
> 
> Audible breathing while not always required is done to show that the breathing is properly coordinated with the movement whichj is a important element of pattern performance. Particularly on this video which was put out by the ITF as a model - not neccessarily a perfect one - no specific critique intended Master Norman  for performance.



I'd argue thought that it should be specifically not required.  I can't really put in to words why I dislike it.  I think breathing should be done properly but I don't need to hear someone sounding like a steam train on every movement to see if they're breathing OK.

I do wonder though whether the breathing is specified per movement in each hyung in the ITF as opposed to the Kukki-Taekwondo's just "breathe properly" is followed.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Sine Wave, why not Cosine Wave? This is just a misinterpretation and over-exaggeration of basic physics principles. Basically, I believe, somebody took high school physics and drew some lofty conclusions and thus created dogma. Non-physics people should not try to talk physics.
> If it is real why dont other sports use the same principle? Hmmmmmm.


 
You have highlighted an issue. You are being too literal. The term is a metaphor. 
It takes up all of about 1 page with a rather large illustration in a 15 volume treatise. 

If the term "Ocean wave" were used would you critque it as being applied by non oceanographers? 

How about the "L" stance not really being an "L" shape.  Don't even get me started on a "U" shape block which is more like a "C". Or perhaps a non linguist should not use letters as metaphors. 

There is no "Physics" relationship between a sine wave and the smooth curve described by the body's motion. They just appear similar, like amn "L" stance kind of looks like an L.    The appropriate science to apply would be bio mechanics as it may relate to physics, but applying pure physics without taking into account the intricacies of the human body as was so aptly illustrated in one of my favorite articles "The Physics of Karate"  Scientific American -1979


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> If you were, for now, to go to a boxing gym and do a boxing style punch with a sine wave movement, do you think the boxers would consider it weird or concordant with how they punch?


 
I think the methodology would be very much the same, but certainly truncated. For instance I would not bring my opposite hand to my hip, either. That would be wierd. 

Also, on those occasions when I boxed I would sometimes find myself taking a step forward while punching with my rear hand. Made the coach nuts. But, since boxers never seem to do this (MMA guys do) it was a fooler.  So, yep, they consider tha one wierd. 

Now, the issue of pattern motions versus truncated motions gets into a whole other topic of truncated motions under adrenal stress and training the motions larger so they won't become too small under stress.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> The key for me though is not about the knees being flexed or head kept level (that min-thread was just a theoretical to see if it was about knee flexion or raising the bodyweight high) - the key is whether the impact happens on a down portion of the movement or up or straight? For Kukki-Taekwondo I'd say straight. For Boxing/MMA I'd say either straight or up. For Sine Wave it seems to be down.
> 
> Do you agree with that assessment? Or have I misunderstood the Sine Wave being down-up-down?


 
I think you have got it. I would have to say if I am reverse punching 4 boards, it's definitely making contact on the "Down"


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I do wonder though whether the breathing is specified per movement in each hyung in the ITF as opposed to the Kukki-Taekwondo's just "breathe properly" is followed.


 
Yes, basicaly it is specified to coordinate the breath with the move. Like other athletic activities you exhale on the exertion. Some tennis players do this quite noticeably. 

There seems to be a noted exception with some powerlifting. I got some explanations I really didn't understand as to why they sometimes hold their breath while lifting heavy loads. I think it was something to do with stabilizing the core under load.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Yes, basicaly it is specified to coordinate the breath with the move. Like other athletic activities you exhale on the exertion. Some tennis players do this quite noticeably.



Kukki-Taekwondo also has us inhale on the preparation and exhale on the exertion.  I wondered if ITF took it a step further and specified during the hyung move-by-move breakdown when to breath in and out.



Earl Weiss said:


> There seems to be a noted exception with some powerlifting. I got some explanations I really didn't understand as to why they sometimes hold their breath while lifting heavy loads. I think it was something to do with stabilizing the core under load.



That's something I always used to do during Taekwondo... a really bad habit that has just taken me 6 months to break properly.


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## MSUTKD (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> There is no "Physics" relationship between a sine wave and the smooth curve described by the body's motion. They just appear similar, like amn "L" stance kind of looks like an L. The appropriate science to apply would be bio mechanics as it may relate to physics, but applying pure physics without taking into account the intricacies of the human body as was so aptly illustrated in one of my favorite articles "The Physics of Karate" Scientific American -1979


 
Thanks Earl for being so patient with us. J
First of all ALL movement can be mathematically (with physics) studied; it is called Kinesiology.  Every year there are hundreds of papers, in real science, physics and biomechanical journals, which look into the science of human movement.  In none of those papers is there anything which would support the ideas that sine wave is purposing.  
I would agree that in human movement there is indeed a wave motion so to speak, but the over exaggerated bounce in the sine wave is unnecessary and ineffective if the goal is to transmit momentum forward to the target.  In fact it is, in my analysis, a waste of energy.  A basic understanding of biomechanics and vectors can confirm this.
The use of math terms, like sine wave, and physics terms like gravity, which make no sense here, do not make it scientifically valid.  A testable, reproducible and peer reviewed procedure/experiment do.  Remember that however sound the logic, if the premise is invalid so are the results.


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## puunui (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Do you mean the hands bouncing up and down?  Or something else in particular?



I guess that is how you describe it, like a bouncing of the hands. Looks funny to me. If you are punching downwards, then I can understand perhaps how sine wave could generate power. But in normal kicking and punching, I want to put as much weight behind my blow as possible, which means that my body mass is traveling horizontally through my opponent or target, not up and down. So my line of motion of my body weight is horizontal, parallel to the floor. that is why for example, having the head remain at a constant height makes sense, because the emphasis becomes going through the target, and any motion up or down wastes energy or kills momentum and weight transfer.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 25, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> I would agree that in human movement there is indeed a wave motion so to speak, but the over exaggerated bounce in the sine wave is unnecessary and ineffective if the goal is to transmit momentum forward to the target. In fact it is, in my analysis, a waste of energy. A basic understanding of biomechanics and vectors can confirm this.
> The use of math terms, like sine wave, and physics terms like gravity, which make no sense here, do not make it scientifically valid. A testable, reproducible and peer reviewed procedure/experiment do. Remember that however sound the logic, if the premise is invalid so are the results.


 
I think that you are missing the point. Your focusing on an inexact use of the term. Other than using it for it's descriptive purpose there is no other reference to the term or how that term as used in physics applies to the movement. The wave is not the goal. Flexing the knees and in some cases raising the heel causes the head to move up and down. It kind of looks like a wave. call it a sign wave, an ocean wave or whatever. You cannot view the term in isolation. It is contrasted with a level movement called a flat wave and a sharp up and down movement called a saw tooth wave, Is that bad because there is no saw involved? 

As shown in the kinetic linking video the goal is to employ the musculature of the entire body to a great extent from the legs up thru the arms. 

With regard to a testable reproduceable peer reviewed project - great idea. when can I look forward to one? How do we account for the human variables? 

I like the biomechanics type studies as shown in the kinetic linking video. Simplified to be sure, but AFAIAC it's the same concept that results in the characteristic sine wave. 

Just because physics people don't like the inexact application or metaphorical use of the term does not render the concept bad.


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## puunui (Feb 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Flexing the knees and in some cases raising the heel causes the head to move up and down.




But most ready stances have you in a bent knees on your toes position already, so there is no need to change the head level to flex your knees or raise you heel. Which way is your weight traveling during a movement, up and down or horizontally? If it is up and down, how does that result in the generation of power?


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> But most ready stances have you in a bent knees on your toes position already, so there is no need to change the head level to flex your knees or raise you heel. Which way is your weight traveling during a movement, up and down or horizontally? If it is up and down, how does that result in the generation of power?


 
The head moving up and down doesn't generate power. The process of having the knees bent and straightening is what allows you to employ more of the bodies musculature.

Here is a simple boxing article:

http://www.mfuz.com/boxing-techniques/boxing-tips-to-increase-your-punching-power.html

There are a gazillion more articles like this.  Having the knees bent by itself doesn't do this.  It's having them bent and then straightening to do this which gives the "up". Now if this happens when your feet are close togethr and the punch extends while stepping forward with one leg your head level naturaly sinks. If stationary, after the "UP" you are returning to the bent knee position which provides the down.  

The characteristic "Down" in the down-uo-down" is nothing more than an initial relaxation (IMNSHO often exagerated) . It's like telling someone with feet side by side in a slightly bent knee position to jump up. They will usualy not just straighten their knees to jump, but slightly relax and go down first.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 26, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> The head moving up and down doesn't generate power. The process of having the knees bent and straightening is what allows you to employ more of the bodies musculature.
> 
> Here is a simple boxing article:
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree with you that going down then up can give you more power.  However, I'd say it's optimal as down then back to level (so up from the down, but not up above normal).  If you go up above normal (which General Choi seemed to do, along with some of these other demonstration videos in this thread) that's when you're coming down from high and dont have the rooting to fully transmit power.


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## RobinTKD (Feb 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> I have to say I don't like that. I also don't like what he does with his hands in between the arm movements.



i have to agree with this, we use the sine wave at our classes, but his hands seem very sloppy in that video.

also, do those who study Kukkiwon TKD use backward motion?


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## Lord-Humongous (Feb 26, 2011)

The hand movement is intentional and part of sine wave as we practice it.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 26, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> that's when you're coming down from high and dont have the rooting to fully transmit power.


 
I understand your thought and the "Above Normal" is a matter of degree.


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## puunui (Feb 26, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> also, do those who study Kukkiwon TKD use backward motion?




What do you mean by "use backward motion"?


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## puunui (Feb 26, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> The head moving up and down doesn't generate power. The process of having the knees bent and straightening is what allows you to employ more of the bodies musculature.
> 
> Here is a simple boxing article:
> 
> http://www.mfuz.com/boxing-techniques/boxing-tips-to-increase-your-punching-power.html




I read the entire article. It doesn't mention anything about the head going up or down or any sine wave type explanation. It mentions pivoting, but nothing about your head height changing when doing that. You can have your knees bent and your head won't go up and down. I guess I still don't get it.


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## RobinTKD (Feb 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> What do you mean by "use backward motion"?



we use it as part of the sine wave, but also in self defence techs.

basically what we are told, is that TKD isn't about arm and leg movement, it's about body movement, so we move the body in the opposite direction to the one we intend to go, and then go back to generate more power, basically go up to go down, go left to go right etc.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> I read the entire article. It doesn't mention anything about the head going up or down or any sine wave type explanation. It mentions pivoting, but nothing about your head height changing when doing that. You can have your knees bent and your head won't go up and down. I guess I still don't get it.


 
Tried to copy and paste from the article. It did not work. 

Under legs it says to keep knees bent. Toward the bottom it talks about raising and lowering the heels. 

COULD this be don keeping the head level? Sure. 

IMHO trying to keep the head level while doing this would not be natural and require unneeded effort.  The issue of the head raising and lowering as a byproduct of the methodology is not mentioned.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2011)

RobinTKD said:


> basically what we are told, is that TKD isn't about arm and leg movement, it's about body movement, so we move the body in the opposite direction to the one we intend to go, and then go back to generate more power, basically go up to go down, go left to go right etc.




I would call that telegraphing, something that we don't want to do. So I guess the answer is no, we do not use backward motion if possible.


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Tried to copy and paste from the article. It did not work.
> 
> Under legs it says to keep knees bent. Toward the bottom it talks about raising and lowering the heels.
> 
> ...




So why the up and down movement then? Am I missing something? Again, you can flex your knees and raise you back heel without moving your head up and down.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 27, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Earl Weiss* 

 
_Tried to copy and paste from the article. It did not work. 

Under legs it says to keep knees bent. Toward the bottom it talks about raising and lowering the heels. 

COULD this be done keeping the head level? Sure. 

IMHO trying to keep the head level while doing this would not be natural and require unneeded effort. The issue of the head raising and lowering as a byproduct of the methodology is not mentioned._


So why the up and down movement then? Am I missing something? Again, you can flex your knees and raise you back heel without moving your head up and down. 

I really don't think I can ad much of value to that which I posted above except to say, yes, you could make an effort to raise your heel(s) and Flex your knees to employ more of the body's musculature to generate power in hand techniques while concentrating on keeping the head perfectly level. My query would be what would be the benefit of working to keep the head level as opposed to allowing a natural up and down motion (or down / up / down ) as the knees flexed and heel raised and dropped?


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## puunui (Feb 27, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> My query would be what would be the benefit of working to keep the head level as opposed to allowing a natural up and down motion (or down / up / down ) as the knees flexed and heel raised and dropped?




Keeping the head level helps me to visualize my hip rocking through my opponent horizontally with as much weight and momentum as I can muster. It's not so much keeping the head level as it is keeping my hip level. Bobbing the head up and down means that my hip and body is going up and down, and although I don't have any scientific research to back it up, I feel that wastes energy and momentum. I drop my head on back kick and spin hook kick for example, but my hip stays on a level plane. And my subjective view is that it looks funny when you incorporate that up and down movement in forms. And that up and down hand thing too, I just can't get behind it.


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## sooshimkwan (Mar 12, 2011)

In order to understand the sine-wave motion in ITF Taekwon-Do you need to be familiar with two things -- (1) the Taekkyeon (aka Taekkyun) connection and (2) the Wave / Circle Principle.

*1. Taekkyeon*

ITF Taekwon-Do grew out of a number of martial arts; the most influential of these were Shotokan Karate and Taekkyeon. When people complain about the "bobbing" in ITF Taekwon-Do it is because they expect Taekwon-Do to look and work more like Karate. The thing is, however, that Taekkyeon also influenced Taekwon-Do greatly and it seems that General Choi (who trained in Taekkyeon as a teenager) in his later years steered ITF Taekwon-Do in a direction that applied more Taekkyeon principles. Now if you are familiar with Taekkyeon, the "bobbing" movements in ITF Taekwon-Do does not look that strange at all.

I discuss the influences of Shotokan Karate and Taekkyeon here: http://sooshimkwan.blogspot.com/2010/09/sine-wave-motion-linear-karate-movement.html

* 2. Wave / Circle Principle*

The sine wave motion (or as someone said, cosine wave) is actually just an icon for some greater principle --someone on this thread used the word "metaphor," to which I would agree. 

"The _sine wave motion_ is an icon, i.e. a simplification, of the _wave principle_. The _sine wave motion_ is almost always seen in its basic relax-up-down form; however, the _wave principle_ transcends this rigid confinement of three phases. The _wave principle_  could sometimes be seen as a reversal, for instance up-down-up; or it  could be expressed horizontally, for example as left-right-left; or even  cyclically. It need not have three parts, but could only involve  up-down, or may oscillate numerous times. It is recognizable when boxers  bob and weave, or when you naturally extend or retract a limb to  maintain balance. If you understand the _wave principle_ you will  notice it in throws and joint locks." 

You can read more about the differentiation of the sine wave motion versus the wave principle here.

I also discussed the _wave principle_ here. The wave principle on which the sine wave motion is build is used in many martial arts, particularly the soft styles, such as Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan, Systema, and others.

I hope I have added something to the discussion.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 12, 2011)

sooshimkwan said:


> When people complain about the "bobbing" in ITF Taekwon-Do it is because they expect Taekwon-Do to look and work more like Karate. The thing is, however, that Taekkyeon also influenced Taekwon-Do greatly and it seems that General Choi (who trained in Taekkyeon as a teenager) in his later years steered ITF Taekwon-Do in a direction that applied more Taekkyeon principles. Now if you are familiar with Taekkyeon, the "bobbing" movements in ITF Taekwon-Do does not look that strange at all.
> 
> I discuss the influences of Shotokan Karate and Taekkyeon here: http://sooshimkwan.blogspot.com/2010/09/sine-wave-motion-linear-karate-movement.html



the problem is the bouncing during the taekkyon video in your link was between movement not during (more similar to WTF Taekwondo sparring than sine wave hyung). In particular it's been explained in this thread that sine wave strikes happen on the down phase of the wave. The taekkyon strikes all happened going level or upward during jumping. I see more in similarity with WTF/kukkiwon Taekwondo than ITF taekwon-do.


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## sooshimkwan (Mar 13, 2011)

As a Taekkyeon practitioner I can assure you that many (if not most) Taekkyeon techniques are performed with the body weight dropped, i.e. "strikes happen on the down phase." Maybe that particular video does not clearly illustrate this, but it is definitely the case for Kyeollyeon (Kyullyun) Taekkyeon, which is the most traditional form of Taekkyeon. Unfortunately most videos on YouTube try to "show off" Taekkyeon and therefore do not depict the basic motions, but rather the more "fancy" -- and somewhat non-traditional -- movements. If you know what to look for, there are moments in the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3nmjKvOADo&feature

The basic movement and bedrock of Taekkyeon training is the "pumbalbgi"  &#54408;&#48159;&#44592;, which is a type of stepping motion based on a triangular form -- you shift your feet, stepping on the three points of an imaginary triangle. An  important part of this stepping is to shift your body weight from foot  to foot while "dropping" your body weight on each step by bending your weight bearing  knee slightly. This is in principle the same as the last downward movemement in the stereotypical relax-up-down sine wave motion in ITF Taekwon-Do. In practise the strike is performed while shifting to body weight in effect forward and downward.

Once you've done Taekkyeon the similarity and underlying principle is obvious. What traditional Taekkyeon does not focus on much is hip rotation for power generation. A focus on hip-rotation (slightly jerking the hip in the direction the blocking or attacking tool is travelling) is something that we (ITF Taekwon-Do) inherited from Karate.


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