# More Belt Colors? WHY???



## Aikikitty (Mar 4, 2009)

I was flipping through the latest Century catalog and noticed 4 new belt colors---Sand, Pink, Gray, and Navy! I saw on a different MA supply store website that they even had a Teal and (I think) a Hot Pink belt. I'm assuming the pink and teal belts might be to motivate girls, as I can't imagine boys wearing pink belts.

What's the purpose of more color belts (besides marketing)? 

Which arts/schools are actually using them?

Are they for the kid's programs?

What are the positives and negatives of having more color belts?

Personally, when saw the new belt colors my first thought was more money for McDojos/McDojangs. :duh: But maybe someone out there might use them as alternative colors or possibly add these new colors to the kids program (but not charge lots of money) so the kids could test, but have to wait longer before making junior black belt? I'm trying to think positive. I don't know.... 

Robyn


----------



## arnisador (Mar 4, 2009)

A BJJ instructor I know used the pink belt as a punishment--forget your BJJ belt? You get the pink one!


----------



## Aikikitty (Mar 4, 2009)

arnisador said:


> A BJJ instructor I know used the pink belt as a punishment--forget your BJJ belt? You get the pink one!


 
:rofl: I've heard of that about the pink belt before. But that was probably a white belt dyed pink not one that was made to be pink.

Actually, one of the guys I trained with washed his white gi and somehow something red got in there. He's a big tough guy so it was very funny seeing him in a pink gi.

Robyn


----------



## Steve (Mar 4, 2009)

arnisador said:


> A BJJ instructor I know used the pink belt as a punishment--forget your BJJ belt? You get the pink one!



That is AWESOME!!!!!   I'm going to buy a pink belt for my coach!


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 5, 2009)

At my dojo, the kids have many more belt levels than the adults.  Since promotions are not money-making situations (sensei charges $5, the cost of the belt), I believe him when he says it is to keep their interest and keep them feeling that they are progressing.  

There are definite standards that they have to meet, he doesn't just give them away, but their normal progression keeps them moving along in the rankings.

If I were a kid, I'd be on hachi kyu, but sensei doesn't like the idea of a 'yellow' belt for adults, so I'm still a white belt ready for testing for my sichi kyu orange belt.  Just as well - yellow isn't my color.


----------



## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2009)

Jade I keep seeing more belts the Little Dragons or Tiny Tikes, TKD has even startesd to add belts but I have no clue why, I guess it is about the money. I am so glad I have not started in this direction.


----------



## Drac (Mar 5, 2009)

There was a school near Missouri that claimed to be teaching Combat Hapkido and offered a "camo" belt..The federation was not happy with that information...The purpose of more belt ranks? I dunno..Maybe more testing fees for the Instructor??


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2009)

The Opal Dragon said:


> I was flipping through the latest Century catalog and noticed 4 new belt colors---Sand, Pink, Gray, and Navy!


Shinesmen anyone? "Salmon pink!"


The Opal Dragon said:


> I saw on a different MA supply store website that they even had a Teal and (I think) a Hot Pink belt. I'm assuming the pink and teal belts might be to motivate girls, as I can't imagine boys wearing pink belts.
> 
> What's the purpose of more color belts (besides marketing)?
> 
> ...


I've been checking out a local school that a lot of my sons' friends attend and they use a whole ton of odd belt colors for the kids, even the dreaded camo belt. And no, it isn't a taekwondo school. 

The adults only have nine belts between white and black, and given that the curriculum is more substantial than that of Kukkiwon taekwondo, the fact that he has one fewer belt for the adults than our school does is pretty good.  But the kids (ten and under, I believe) get the special colors before they can earn regular ranks. 

When I talked to one if the instructors about belts and the cost of test, he looked at me like I was from another planet and said, "cost? What do you mean? You don't pay for colored belt tests here." I assume that this is the case with the kiddie belts as well.

His adult class is pretty darned good. Excellent, in fact. Very healthy and the blackbelts are no joke. He's definitely not a half baked instructor churning out belts for a living.

If they're being used as a teaching tool and not as a cash generator, then I see no problem with it. 

Daniel


----------



## cdunn (Mar 5, 2009)

Also, remember, the actual color of the belts has no innate meaning. Belts only ever mean what your organization says they mean. My dan belt is midnight blue, because our founder wanted to avoid the mental baggage that comes with 'black belt'. 

Scrambling people off their preconception of what a belt is supposed to mean can be a good thing. Granted, there are going to be a lot of hucksters that do use extra belts to bilk people, but they would have gotten up to their shenanigans in any case.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Mar 5, 2009)

When I was assistant teacher in the youth jiu-jitsu classes, none of the kids got colored belts. They had white with a number of lines. Each line represented 4 techniques of the white belt adult curriculum.
When they had all techniques, they had the equivalent of the white belt adult test. They could then progress to the yellow belt adult curriculum (additional 'notches' on their white belt) until they were 12, when they could test for yellow.

Once we have a visiting school, and they had color systems for kids. One of the green belts was so arrogant that he said to his teacher that he didn't want to wrestle with one of our white belts because it was so far beneath him. His teacher made him, and the kid got pounced on.

Personally I don't like belt colors. Not for kids and not for adults. If you need colors to keep you motivated and to feel good (look ma! I have a purple belt with gold trim and yellow polkadots!) then you are doing MA for the wrong reasons (imo).

And if you are 12, how good are you at fighting, really? If a 12 year old black belt gets slapped down by an adult orange belt, then the black represents nothing. In our jiu-jitsu system, you could not get colors before 12, and no black before 18, because it was felt that otherwise it would be a mockery of the term 'fighting art'.

Just my 2ct.

Btw, in Genbukan ninpo we have 3 colors:
white: newbie
green: kyu levels
black dan levels


----------



## KempoGuy06 (Mar 5, 2009)

my little cousin was in a system that had the camo belt, thankfully i talked my aunt out of taking her there anymore

B


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Shinesmen anyone? "Salmon pink!"
> 
> I've been checking out a local school that a lot of my sons' friends attend and they use a whole ton of odd belt colors for the kids, even the dreaded camo belt. And no, it isn't a taekwondo school.
> 
> ...


 
To me, this is what it boils down to, and this post is very well said.

The only thing I can add to it, really, is that kids need to be motivated alot of the time.  I'm not advocating young children get involved in MA...when I say young, I'm meaning 3 and 4 year old toddlers...but kids younger than whatever the age of pueberty is now-a-days don't have strong attention spans...most don't, anyway.  So they receive valid training, and are actually learning the material and techniques, and are training on the level that they are able to train safely at.

The problem that I've seen is that kids alot of times don't understand that you don't just make blackbelt in a week, so they get discouraged.  Not only that, but they see all of these other belt ranks on adults, and see the ranks as more of a "collection" to have than something that was earned.  So, IMO, having the extra colors is a plus for kids who don't fully understand yet what it means to actually earn a rank...if they don't apply themselves, then they don't get the diamond studded orange and green belt, but if they do apply themselves, they can earn it, although it is not an actual rank.

Like Daniel said, though, as long as these belts are being charged for, or as long as the charge is basically the cost of the belt, and the cirriculum isn't vastly different from what the art intended, then what's the harm?


----------



## bowser666 (Mar 5, 2009)

This is why I feel it is beneficial to train with schools that are part of a association. This way the ranking structure is pre-determined and belt colors CAN'T be added unless the organization leaders decide. ( Unlikely) I personally am wary of schools that operate outside organizations ( not saying all of them do) because this is where you find alot of the McDojo's . The ones that have 15 different belt colors, Black belt clubs, lots of 8 year old balck belts, and oh yeah, I forgot to mention , each colored belt level gets 3 stripes in between each belt level.  IE orange  1 strip, Orange 2nd stripe, Orange 3 stripe then you test for next belt and start all over again for 3 more stripes. 

Just my $0.02 .  I don't see anything wrong with colored belt systems but overkill is too much and the mcdojo approach is wrong IMO.


----------



## IcemanSK (Mar 5, 2009)

The actual color of the belt doesn't concern me. The idea should be to mark a student's progress in the Art. For some, they want to make a visual progression from white (innocense) to black (completion or something similiar) so getting belt colors that show that progression are important.

I have a friend who teaches folks with mental disabilities as well as those without disabilities. For those with disabilities, he uses the same ranking system, but each belt has a white stripe through the center of the belt. It gives everyone an understanding of that student's special needs.

I know of many schools who use a "pink belt" when a student forgets theirs. My issue is finding a color that wouldn't be used as a badge of honor for a pre-teen girl:ultracool


----------



## Drac (Mar 5, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> That is AWESOME!!!!! I'm going to buy a pink belt for my coach!


 
Dont stop there..I think Century made a pink gi..I saw Gene Judo LaBelle wear one..Not too many people said much to his face I'm sure...


----------



## astrobiologist (Mar 5, 2009)

A belt is just a means for a student and an instructor to follow the progress of an education in the martial arts.  Too much significance has been placed upon the belt these days.  I say, to each their own.  If a school want pink belts, camo belts, or belts with flashy lights...  whatever, that's their prerogative.  If the school operator is including more belts so that they can make more money off of their students (McDojo extortion) then that hurts the martial arts, but who really cares what color(s) the belts are...


----------



## Nolerama (Mar 5, 2009)

I occasionally train with a gi, and have not earned a belt in any grappling art. 

So it would be cool to wear a camo or pink belt IMO. I wouldn't wear it in a competition, but my training partners and I would get a kick out of it in our own gym.

Currently, I'm making my white belt into a checkerboard belt. Because that would be awesome... And it's the only thing I can do to pass the time away besides watching television.

Also, check out Happy Kimonos. I think they're fun.

Oh yeah, this poses the question:
*
Do martial artists place too much stock in the color of belts?*


----------



## searcher (Mar 5, 2009)

I did not read all of the thread so if this was mentioned I apologize.

The sand(tan), and grey are for MCMAP ranking.    They decided to use those colors inplace of "traditional" colors.

The navy is for differentiation between high and low blue in some systems.    Other systems use stripes or tips for such things.



And the big reason why more colors is $$$$$$$.    Each belt test is another chance tp make some more money.    The McDojos love it.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 5, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> I occasionally train with a gi, and have not earned a belt in any grappling art.
> 
> So it would be cool to wear a camo or pink belt IMO. I wouldn't wear it in a competition, but my training partners and I would get a kick out of it in our own gym.
> 
> ...


 
Yessir. They sure do.


----------



## Steve (Mar 5, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> Also, check out Happy Kimonos. I think they're fun.


Oh... dude... I can't thank you enough for that link.  I've been planning on tie dying a gi for months, but couldn't figure out how to do a good job of it at home (seeing that I haven't tie dyed anything since day camp in the 70's).


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> Oh yeah, this poses the question:
> 
> *Do martial artists place too much stock in the color of belts?*


Martial artists?  Not as a whole.  

I think that we need to qualify what a martial artist *isn't*: getting your bb and the quitting doen't make you a martial artist; it means that you took a class and got a paper that said so.  It does *not* make you a martial artist.

I think that schools do, as it is either a direct source of income or a goal that keeps iffy students around and paying longer. 

And iffy students (I mean those who sign up just to get their blackbelt and then quit) do because having the belt is like having a trophy; it looks cool and you can say, 'I got a black belt in karate' and watch your uninformed friends say, 'ooh, wow!  bet nobody can mess with you!'

I think that beginner students nearly always do, but those that actually become martial artists generally figure it out before they reach their first dan or equivallent.  If not by then, usually soon after, the rank being a crutch to help them through the beginning part of their martial journey.

Martial artists tend to emphasize not the belt itself, but the blatant misuse of it by some to fleece students or their parents of gobs of extra cash.

Daniel


----------



## Nolerama (Mar 5, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Oh... dude... I can't thank you enough for that link.  I've been planning on tie dying a gi for months, but couldn't figure out how to do a good job of it at home (seeing that I haven't tie dyed anything since day camp in the 70's).



I've been thinking about doing that, too. Post pictures if you end up doing that.


----------



## teekin (Mar 5, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Oh... dude... I can't thank you enough for that link.  I've been planning on tie dying a gi for months, but couldn't figure out how to do a good job of it at home (seeing that I haven't tie dyed anything since day camp in the 70's).




OK Steve, I have a no so good Gi that ended up a washed out blue that I need to do Something with, soooooo..... I hereby challenge you and Nole to a Die Off ! (and not in the 28 Days Later way) Perhaps continue in Locker Room?


----------



## Aikikitty (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks everyone who has replied thus far.  Keep it coming!



searcher said:


> The sand(tan), and grey are for MCMAP ranking. They decided to use those colors inplace of "traditional" colors.
> 
> The navy is for differentiation between high and low blue in some systems. Other systems use stripes or tips for such things.


 

You're the first to offer any explanation over the sand, grey, and navy colors. What does "MCMAP" stand for?

Robyn :asian:


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 5, 2009)

Marine Corp martial Arts program


----------



## punisher73 (Mar 5, 2009)

The Opal Dragon said:


> :rofl: I've heard of that about the pink belt before. But that was probably a white belt dyed pink not one that was made to be pink.
> 
> Actually, one of the guys I trained with washed his white gi and somehow something red got in there. He's a big tough guy so it was very funny seeing him in a pink gi.
> 
> Robyn


 
That is how Judo Gene Lebell became famous for his pink gi.  It was washed with something red and came out pink.  If I remember the story correctly it was done on purpose by somebody and he wore it anyways and then it became his trademark.


----------



## HG1 (Mar 5, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Crayola_crayon_colors

Mac & Cheese Belt Magazine just doesn't sound right. :wink2:


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 5, 2009)

Drac said:


> Dont stop there..I think Century made a pink gi..I saw Gene Judo LaBelle wear one..Not too many people said much to his face I'm sure...



Mr LeBell has been wearing a pink judogi for a long time. Legend is that there was a laundry accident when he was in Japan. He put the thing on, and it's been his trademark since. I have a pic of me and Gene in that gi somewhere. Mr LeBell has a wonderful sense of humour and a kind of loud charisma. The two times I saw him he had this wild out of control mop of red hair. Red and White belt, pink gi, red hair -- it works.


----------



## jarrod (Mar 5, 2009)

this thread gave me a GREAT idea.  i have a student who's color blind.  next promotion he gets, he's getting a pink belt.

jf


----------



## jarrod (Mar 5, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> I have a pic of me and Gene in that gi somewhere.



how did you both fit in there? 

jf


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 5, 2009)

My martial arts experience so far from age 12 to present has included exposure to: Kenpo (Not the  Ed Parker kind, the New England Villari-clone kind that you cannot escape in this area), TKD, western boxing( I'm Boston Irish, of course I have to know at least the rudiments), Judo, Small circle Jujitsu, Pencak-Silat( Kendang and Harimau styles) Modern Arnis, Dekiti-Tirsia-Siradas Kali.

 Current training was Judo ,( formal, biweekly classroom basis)until expenses had to be cut last month as I am saving for my Great Trip South, Small-Circle Jujitsu ( Video/Occasional private lesson basis whan I have the time/money), Modified WWII combatives(own research, Surviving manuals, ).

 Despite ALL of that, , my spare money/time investment for those things is limited enough that actually attaining black belt or equivalent rank in anything just doesn't seem to be in my cards. No matter--a black belt only covers an inch of your ***, the rest is up to YOU.

Now who wants a Fistful O' Fries with their Burger Belt?


----------



## Bruno@MT (Mar 5, 2009)

Drac said:


> Dont stop there..I think Century made a pink gi..I saw Gene Judo LaBelle wear one..Not too many people said much to his face I'm sure...


 
On the day I went to my first MA seminar, the wife of one of the seniors accidentally washed his white gi with a red soccer sock... pink gi.
He felt embarassed and wore sweats instead of his gi.


----------



## Big Don (Mar 5, 2009)

> *Dark Helmet*: Aw, buckle this! Ludicrous speed! _Go!!__[Dark Helmet is screaming as he sees various warp trails on the monitor. Meanwhile, there are signs lighting up indicating "LIGHT SPEED", "RIDICULOUS SPEED", and a flashing "LUDICROUS SPEED" sign]_*Dark Helmet*: What have I done?! My brains are going into my feet!_[Spaceball One passes Lone Starr's Winnebago]_*Barf*: What the hell was that?*Lone Starr*: Spaceball One.*Barf*: They've gone to plaid!*Dark Helmet*: _We passed 'em; stop this thing!_*Colonel Sandurz*: We can't stop, it's too dangerous. We have to slow down first.


I won't be satisfied without a Plaid Belt!


----------



## Big Don (Mar 5, 2009)

jarrod said:


> this thread gave me a GREAT idea.  i have a student who's color blind.  next promotion he gets, he's getting a pink belt.
> 
> jf


There is, somewhere online, a shirt with a pattern like the colorblindness test. Inside the pattern it says F&^K the Color Blind!
My mom's husband is color blind, alas, my mom has no sense of humor...


----------



## Nolerama (Mar 5, 2009)

Big Don said:


> There is, somewhere online, a shirt with a pattern like the colorblindness test. Inside the pattern it says F&^K the Color Blind!
> My mom's husband is color blind, alas, my mom has no sense of humor...



I'm getting one.


----------



## Big Don (Mar 5, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> I'm getting one.


Shame on you. You'd better hurry, they are packing up their crap and quitting due to too much hate mail. 

I printed out the picture, took it to work and hung it on the wall to test it on the one color blind guy I used to work with.


----------



## Kwan Jang (Mar 5, 2009)

As Daniel mentioned earlier, more belt tests are not just a way of gouging people for cash (though unfortunately this does happen), but also as a way to keep people on track. This is not just for kids either. What gets measured gets done. By keeping people focused on their goals, they make better progress. This concept has been used consistantly in other forms of education and personal development successfully for a long time. One key is actually to tie the ranking to actual progress and the student's individual growth.

Is a belt system a neccesity? Obviously not. Are their abuses in the belt system at various schools from both the instructors and some of the students? We all know of many examples of this. However, when properly used, I beleive that it can be a valuable tool and to disregard it outof hand for these reasons is like "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".


----------



## Bruno@MT (Mar 6, 2009)

Kwan Jang said:


> As Daniel mentioned earlier, more belt tests are not just a way of gouging people for cash (though unfortunately this does happen), but also as a way to keep people on track. This is not just for kids either. What gets measured gets done. By keeping people focused on their goals, they make better progress.


 
That is the idea, but by introducing so many additional belts, the sytem is pandering to instant gratification and the need for trophies..

Additionally, and this is just my opinion, by testing such small increments, the students never have to master a significant of new skills between each test.

Imo, there should be a significant chuck of new stuff between grades, so that the grade itself is a significant achievement, and not just mastery of 4 techniques. At least for adults.


----------



## Ronin74 (Mar 6, 2009)

Drac said:


> Dont stop there..I think Century made a pink gi..I saw Gene Judo LaBelle wear one..Not too many people said much to his face I'm sure...


 
LOL... I heard a story from one of my friend's instructors regarding that. He was on set for a film where Gene Lebelle was present (possibly as an advisor). We asked if it was there was any truth to the whole pink gi thing. He said, "yeah, Gene wore a pink gi around, but nobody really had the balls to say anything to him about it."


----------



## Aikicomp (Mar 6, 2009)

bowser666 said:


> This is why I feel it is beneficial to train with schools that are part of a association. This way the ranking structure is pre-determined and belt colors CAN'T be added unless the organization leaders decide. ( Unlikely) I personally am wary of schools that operate outside organizations ( not saying all of them do) because this is where you find alot of the McDojo's . The ones that have 15 different belt colors, Black belt clubs, lots of 8 year old balck belts, and oh yeah, I forgot to mention , each colored belt level gets 3 stripes in between each belt level. IE orange 1 strip, Orange 2nd stripe, Orange 3 stripe then you test for next belt and start all over again for 3 more stripes.
> 
> Just my $0.02 . I don't see anything wrong with colored belt systems but overkill is too much and the mcdojo approach is wrong IMO.


 
Good point and sometimes very true. But, not always. On the flip side of that there are some organizations, federations, ect. that are very, prejudiced, holier than thou and political in nature which IMO is detremental to the students who see and hear such garbage spewed about other styles who are not affiliated with anything or are in another org./ fed. That's one of the reasons my teacher went on his own, started his own style and isolated himself from the BS that was happening at his time.

Thank goodness it has become not so prevelant as when I was coming up in rank. Today I see more and more open sharing and understanding of different diciplines and acceptance from and toward one another (such as this board as a matter of fact). It makes me very happy to see boards like this where open, honest and respectful discussion can be accomplished with minimum collateral damage.

Oh darn, kinda got off track this thread was about belt color right? sorry.

My opinion on how many belts or what color they are is up to each individual system as they see fit to guage rank according to their own tradition. Who cares if style A has 4,5 or 10 belts, who cares if style B has a blue, yellow or teal belt.

That's not what it's all about, never was and should never be. 

The real questions that should be addressed is:

1. Are the Instructors competent and caring "teachers"?
2. Is this a style that works for me and my goals?

And the number one thing I ask myself everyday and my reason for teaching in the first place is: 

Can this art I teach and how I teach it, help people to live better, more caring and understanding lives by showing them humility, patience, understanding and encouragement, while also exposing weaknesses and fraility or our own human nature. 

If I can accomplish this I will be proud to have called myself a "teacher"

Michael


----------



## Hand Sword (Mar 6, 2009)

Why?  Why gi's with sparkles? Capes? Bright colors? etc... Just to be different and have your own style. Maybe for open tournament competition. It's just further commercialization, where everyone gets to tailor everything to their likes.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> That is the idea, but by introducing so many additional belts, the sytem is pandering to instant gratification and the need for trophies...


Are they?  Do we as students go in looking to have more belts?  I've never heard any student in 34 years actually _ask_ for another belt.

If I recall, taekwondo originally only had five belts: white>green>blue>red>black.  

That meant only three belts between white and black.  Also if memory serves, Jhoon Rhee added the gold belt in the US because people were dropping off after four to six months because they didn't feel that they were getting anywhere.  A green belt takes, on average, eight months to a year to earn.

I think that school owners came up with the additional belts as a way to enable the students to more easily track their own progress and to aid in designing curriculum.  Abuses not withstanding, I don't really have a problem with a bevy of belts.



Bruno@MT said:


> Additionally, and this is just my opinion, by testing such small increments, the students never have to master a significant of new skills between each test.


 
Do  you have to do this in anything else?  

You are tested every two to three weeks and quizzed weekly, sometimes several times a week in school, and you don't really learn any significantly new or groundbreaking material from one test to the next.  Then you get the academic equivalent of a blackbelt test twice a year in the form of midterms and finals.



Bruno@MT said:


> Imo, there should be a significant chuck of new stuff between grades, so that the grade itself is a significant achievement, and not just mastery of 4 techniques. At least for adults.


Should there be?  If your gradings are six to eight months apart, then I'd agree, but not with testings every two to three months.  I'd rather see the student gain depth and understanding of four techniques and internalize them than have a general knowldege that cannot be effectively applied.  

Anyway, the goal isn't to see how much can be crammed into the curriculum between tests, but to bring the student to a point where they're proficient with the material.  Generally, that is more effectively done in small chunks, which having a belt for each kyu grade works very well for.  

Personally, I'm more in favor of fewer belts and the use of affixable stripes to the belt.  But it doesn't matter what visual que is used.  The important thing is the transmission of the material.

When the student test for black belt, they should look like they're really a blackbelt level student (the test is merely confirmation).  If the student is well trained, well practiced, and knows the material, it really doesn't matter how many pieces of cloth they were given before the test.  

A longtime student of the martial arts eventually learnes to see the belts for what they are: sign posts and markers to help them find their path.  By blackbelt, fewer posts and markers are needed, and they come at longer and longer intervals, as the student is now able to find the path and mark progress without frequent posts and markers.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

Hand Sword said:


> Why? Why gi's with sparkles? Capes? Bright colors? etc... Just to be different and have your own style. Maybe for open tournament competition. It's just further commercialization, where everyone gets to tailor everything to their likes.


Elvis Presley did that.  They wouldn't let him wear it to class, so he took it on stage. 

Yes, the eagle jump suite really was based on his karate gi.  Whoooa, momma!!

Daniel


----------



## just2kicku (Mar 6, 2009)

I was told that a long time ago, students would get a white belt when they started learning, after years of being in the martial arts that white belt, would gradually get darker with the oils from your hand tying and untying it , with sweat, blood and dirt from the dojo till it was basically black. That's how you could tell the time in the art. And that's why you never wash your belt.

Today, it's used for tracking progress and time in an art. Unfortunately, some schools add belts because of the testing fees involved. I don't feel that adding belts is too bad a thing if the student knows what he or she is doing. The problem comes from advancing students just cause they paid their fees and giving them a false sense of accomplishment. That's when you start getting the attitudes of "I'm this color belt or that color belt". Sooner or later their mouths start writing checks that their body can't cash.

By the way, I just got my 6th degree fuscia and teal belt with five different color tapes on it for $65.00, so don't mess with me.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> I was told that a long time ago, students would get a white belt when they started learning, after years of being in the martial arts that white belt, would gradually get darker with the oils from your hand tying and untying it , with sweat, blood and dirt from the dojo till it was basically black. That's how you could tell the time in the art. And that's why you never wash your belt.


This is a nice martial arts fairy tale to provide some historic justification for a blackbelt.  Interestingly, the opposite is true: a blackbelt begins to lose its dye and show white after years of wear.

The gi and black and white obi and the kyu/dan system were introduced by Kano in the early twentieth century.

Before that, Koryo arts practitioners wore a hakama and kimono. Okinawans practicing karate did so in their everyday clothes. The idea of a belt system is completely foreign to many of the cultures who's arts adopted it; there was no belt system in Korean martial arts until the Japanese occupation. Some western martial arts have adopted a belt system, but there is absolutely no justification for it. Nothing wrong with it, but there is no historicity to the blackbelt outside of Japan, and none in Japan before the twentieth century. 

Even the Kyu/dan system is lifted by Kano from the game of Go. Until the twentieth century, there was no kyu/dan system in the martial arts.


Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Today, it's used for tracking progress and time in an art. Unfortunately, some schools add belts because of the testing fees involved. I don't feel that adding belts is too bad a thing if the student knows what he or she is doing. The problem comes from advancing students just cause they paid their fees and giving them a false sense of accomplishment. That's when you start getting the attitudes of "I'm this color belt or that color belt". Sooner or later their mouths start writing checks that their body can't cash.
> 
> By the way, I just got my 6th degree fuscia and teal belt with five different color tapes on it for $65.00, so don't mess with me.


I wanted to address this in a separate post. 

This is the major problem of abuse of the belt system: inflated rank and deflated training.

Students become focused on the acquisition of the belt, rather than using it as a progress marker.  Schools become focused on getting students to test and pay the fee rather than on training the student awarding them rank when appropriate.

Daniel


----------



## just2kicku (Mar 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is a nice martial arts fairy tale to provide some historic justification for a blackbelt.  Interestingly, the opposite is true: a blackbelt begins to lose its dye and show white after years of wear.
> 
> The gi and black and white obi and the kyu/dan system were introduced by Kano in the early twentieth century.
> 
> ...



Well thank you for raining on my parade. Ignorance is bliss and now I'm not bliss anymore Daniel. LOL 

No really, good info. Didn't really know what the facts were, just something I was told long ago.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2009)

Sorry if I came off as a know it all.  

I could be very wrong, but I believe that that story is probably the result of taekwondo being promoted by a government and an org that did not wish to acknowledge that ther belt system was of Japanese origin.  

Given that nearly everyone I know who is in martial arts received their introduction to MA through taekwondo, my guess is that such stories are told to a great many people.  There are other 'historical' references made by the powers that be in the KKW that are questionable or patently false.

Daniel


----------



## Carol (Mar 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sorry if I came off as a know it all.
> 
> I could be very wrong, but I believe that that story is probably the result of taekwondo being promoted by a government and an org that did not wish to acknowledge that ther belt system was of Japanese origin.
> 
> ...



Interesting point. I had wondered if they had sprung from schools that play up the mysticism or philosophical aspect of the art.   Some of these martial arts tales that float around as fact strike me as tales that weren't intended to be facts...they were instead intended to be some sort of koan...such as illustrating how earning a black belt is a long and gradual process but each day of sweat and dirt brings you one step closer.


----------



## just2kicku (Mar 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sorry if I came off as a know it all.
> 
> I could be very wrong, but I believe that that story is probably the result of taekwondo being promoted by a government and an org that did not wish to acknowledge that ther belt system was of Japanese origin.
> 
> ...


 
I was kidding with you. You don't sound like a know it all. I'm glad you answered this. Like I said it's what was told to me, no facts or anything. Everyone has there own idea of the history as TOLD. I personally have know idea how the belt thing came to be, I was happy as a white belt.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 7, 2009)

The belt thing came about as a result of Jigoro Kano's modernizing jujutsu into judo.  Kano devised the judo-gi and the thin obi that are now part of probably 80% or more of traditional martial arts schools.  

He used the belts to be able to pick out at a glance the advanced students from the novices.  It also served to tell novice students which students they could go to for help.  Initially, there were only two belts: white and black.  The game, Go, is a traditional strategy game played in Japan and the kyu/dan system is part of that.  

I am not an expert on Kano, but I do recall reading that Kano was influenced by athletics and how athletes were ranked, particularly with swimming from what I understand.

I don't know all of his reasons for doing what he did.  Part of it could be because teachers of bujutsu were in a period of transition after the then recent major upheavals in the Japanese government.  I do know that he had the chops to be taken very seriously in his craft.  His system was adopted by most, if not all gendai budo.  It was then adopted by most, if not all Korean schools as a result of Japan's occupation of Korea.

Daniel


----------



## searcher (Mar 7, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The belt thing came about as a result of Jigoro Kano's modernizing jujutsu into judo. Kano devised the judo-gi and the thin obi that are now part of probably 80% or more of traditional martial arts schools.
> 
> He used the belts to be able to pick out at a glance the advanced students from the novices. It also served to tell novice students which students they could go to for help. Initially, there were only two belts: white and black. The game, Go, is a traditional strategy game played in Japan and the kyu/dan system is part of that.
> 
> ...


 

Adding to Daniel's post.     Kano wanted to give his students something that they could work for, so he added green and brown in addition to black and white, so the students could set goals for themselves.


And in the "pre-belt" times, the only people who wore Hakama were those of higher status.    Everybody else wore what they could afford.     Train in what you normally wear, it will keep you alive a little longer.


----------



## matt.m (Mar 8, 2009)

It is true, everyone thank the Granson of Jigoro Kano, Yikimitsu.  Send him an email to the Kodokan.  Jigoro Kano initiated the belt system.  When he traveled abroad to England, etc he found that having a "Military type" of rank structure was indeed of benefit.  It was self-esteem, goal orientated, and goals had to be met and accomplished before the award of rank could be given.

When Bong Yul Shin and Lee H. Park came to america they had the following: White, Yellow, Green, Brown, and Black.......

Gee the original judo belt ranking system.  GGM Bong Yul Shin uses that same belt system to teach judo and hapkido to this day.  In tae kwon do he added the orange, blue, purple and red.  I teach the judo cirriculum with the White, Yellow, Green, Brown, and Black.

I can see why the "Tabs, Stipes, hashes" or whatever.  If it is standard in the school then it is routine, has a routine and set cirriculum for all the world to see and know what to expect.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2009)

searcher said:


> And in the "pre-belt" times, the only people who wore Hakama were those of higher status. Everybody else wore what they could afford. Train in what you normally wear, it will keep you alive a little longer.


Yeppers.  Most folks just trained in their everyday clothes.  

Heck, some trained in their undergarments.  Imagine a school doing _that _today!

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yeppers. Most folks just trained in their everyday clothes.
> 
> Heck, some trained in their undergarments. Imagine a school doing _that _today!
> 
> Daniel


 
You know...when the Greeks and Romans competed in wrestling in the Olympics waaaaaaaaay back in the day, they were nude...

I'll take undergarments.


----------



## jarrod (Mar 9, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> You know...when the Greeks and Romans competed in wrestling in the Olympics waaaaaaaaay back in the day, they were nude...
> 
> I'll take undergarments.



i think i'd prefer even naked to what they do in turkish wrestling.

leather pants, & you're covered in oil.

oh yeah, & women aren't allowed to watch.

jf


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> You know...when the Greeks and Romans competed in wrestling in the Olympics waaaaaaaaay back in the day, they were nude...
> 
> I'll take undergarments.


Needless to say, nude classes would pretty much kill your childrens' program too. 

Daniel


----------



## BrandonLucas (Mar 9, 2009)

um...

i got nothing.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 9, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i think i'd prefer even naked to what they do in turkish wrestling.
> 
> leather pants, & you're covered in oil.
> 
> ...


Sheesh!  What's the point of that?  

Perhaps I'm best not knowing.

Daniel


----------



## Cirdan (Mar 9, 2009)

Turkish wrestling.... aww thanks for bringing back pictures from memory that I`d finally closed off from my own fragile mind :vu:


----------



## ArmorOfGod (Mar 9, 2009)

More colors usually is bad, but can be good if the teacher does not charge for testing fees.  I only charage $5 (the cost of the belt) and I have a few extra belts for the younger kids so they feel they are progressing when in truth, the adults are going through the belts at a faster rate.

The thing that bothers me is when companies like Bold Look offer hundreds of belt color combinations like: neon green, white, and blue (one one belt) or orange, gray, and pink.  If they don't have the 3 color combo you want, you can special order your exact one.
Exactly what can those be used for?

AoG


----------



## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Mar 9, 2009)

So correct me if I'm wrong, but belt ranking tests aren't the most expensive thing on the planet? At my school we pay 45 dollars for belt rankings.

One of the things that irks me is that my sensei has made a tradition of giving his past black belts to his students who ascend to black belt level, but now he's purchased a camo belt and I just...I don't really like it. Not really cause i have a problem with different belt colorings, but camo is just blah, to me. 

Still though, my school doesn't put too much importance into belts, they're just expensive as crap.


----------

