# Putting the black belt on a pedestal



## PhotonGuy (Nov 19, 2014)

I've talked before about how lots of dojos particularly in the USA put the black belt on a pedestal, and what I mean by that is how it fits in with the rest of the ranking system. Although a first degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles, for those styles that use a black belt in their ranking systems its often the highest color that you will wear no matter what rank you get to in your martial arts career. After first degree black is second degree black, than third degree, fourth degree, ect. but your belt color does not change. Some styles do use different colored belts for some of the really high degrees. Judo has a red and white belt that a sensei who has reached, I believe seventh degree, might wear in place of a black belt and so forth but even styles that do use different colors for the really high degrees doesn't mean the sensei will always wear it. Some sensei's might just hang their red and white or whatever color it is belt up on the wall and continue to wear the black belt that they got when they reached 1st degree when they teach. So, although 1st degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles that use rank, its often the highest color.

Anyway, what I mean when I talk about how some places, particularly in the USA might put the black belt on a pedestal, what I mean is this. Although ranking systems vary from place to place, most places that use a ranking system have a few things in common. On your first day you start with a white belt (or no belt as in some places you start with no belt). From there you progress up the various colors of belts and eventually you get a brown belt. In lots of styles there are three levels of brown so when you first get a brown belt you're brown low. From there you get to brown middle and then brown high. After brown high is first degree black belt. I know that not all styles go like that but for sake of discussion Im using this as an example. So when I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal this is what I mean. In terms of time and difficulty its a much bigger jump to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. It takes much longer and its much harder to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. So what they're doing is they're putting the black belt on a pedestal which I think is a bit ridiculous. Naturally getting a 1st degree black belt will be harder than getting a high level brown belt as its a higher rank but it shouldn't be much harder and it shouldn't take much longer, if it does then there should be ranks in between brown high and first degree black. In Japan the first degree black belt, from what I've heard, is seen as just another belt, simply the belt after brown high and before 2nd degree black. That's how it should be seen in the USA too. If the first degree black belt is not such a big deal as some of the people on this board like to say, than getting from high brown to first degree black shouldn't be such a big jump. Obviously, going from white to black would be a tremendous jump and that's why students don't go from white to black they go through all the various colors of belts, belt by belt, but going from high brown to black shouldn't be such a jump, after all, its only going up one level.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've talked before about how lots of dojos particularly in the USA put the black belt on a pedestal, and what I mean by that is how it fits in with the rest of the ranking system. Although a first degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles, for those styles that use a black belt in their ranking systems its often the highest color that you will wear no matter what rank you get to in your martial arts career. After first degree black is second degree black, than third degree, fourth degree, ect. but your belt color does not change. Some styles do use different colored belts for some of the really high degrees. Judo has a red and white belt that a sensei who has reached, I believe seventh degree, might wear in place of a black belt and so forth but even styles that do use different colors for the really high degrees doesn't mean the sensei will always wear it. Some sensei's might just hang their red and white or whatever color it is belt up on the wall and continue to wear the black belt that they got when they reached 1st degree when they teach. So, although 1st degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles that use rank, its often the highest color.
> 
> Anyway, what I mean when I talk about how some places, particularly in the USA might put the black belt on a pedestal, what I mean is this. Although ranking systems vary from place to place, most places that use a ranking system have a few things in common. On your first day you start with a white belt (or no belt as in some places you start with no belt). From there you progress up the various colors of belts and eventually you get a brown belt. In lots of styles there are three levels of brown so when you first get a brown belt you're brown low. From there you get to brown middle and then brown high. After brown high is first degree black belt. I know that not all styles go like that but for sake of discussion Im using this as an example. So when I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal this is what I mean. In terms of time and difficulty its a much bigger jump to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. It takes much longer and its much harder to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. So what they're doing is they're putting the black belt on a pedestal which I think is a bit ridiculous. Naturally getting a 1st degree black belt will be harder than getting a high level brown belt as its a higher rank but it shouldn't be much harder and it shouldn't take much longer, if it does then there should be ranks in between brown high and first degree black. In Japan the first degree black belt, from what I've heard, is seen as just another belt, simply the belt after brown high and before 2nd degree black. That's how it should be seen in the USA too. If the first degree black belt is not such a big deal as some of the people on this board like to say, than getting from high brown to first degree black shouldn't be such a big jump. Obviously, going from white to black would be a tremendous jump and that's why students don't go from white to black they go through all the various colors of belts, belt by belt, but going from high brown to black shouldn't be such a jump, after all, its only going up one level.


That little jump can be quite high considering the teacher is looking for a serious attitude adjustment. As for Black Belts on a pedestal, I would like to sing a little song, "Nobody knows the black belts I've seeeeeeeen..."


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## Danny T (Nov 19, 2014)

It would all depend upon the requirements set forth by the organization or the instructor one is training with. Meet those requirements and you will advance in within the ranking structure. It means nothing other than one has met the particular requirements.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've talked before about how lots of dojos particularly in the USA put the black belt on a pedestal, and what I mean by that is how it fits in with the rest of the ranking system. Although a first degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles, for those styles that use a black belt in their ranking systems its often the highest color that you will wear no matter what rank you get to in your martial arts career. After first degree black is second degree black, than third degree, fourth degree, ect. but your belt color does not change. Some styles do use different colored belts for some of the really high degrees. Judo has a red and white belt that a sensei who has reached, I believe seventh degree, might wear in place of a black belt and so forth but even styles that do use different colors for the really high degrees doesn't mean the sensei will always wear it. Some sensei's might just hang their red and white or whatever color it is belt up on the wall and continue to wear the black belt that they got when they reached 1st degree when they teach. So, although 1st degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles that use rank, its often the highest color.
> 
> Anyway, what I mean when I talk about how some places, particularly in the USA might put the black belt on a pedestal, what I mean is this. Although ranking systems vary from place to place, most places that use a ranking system have a few things in common. On your first day you start with a white belt (or no belt as in some places you start with no belt). From there you progress up the various colors of belts and eventually you get a brown belt. In lots of styles there are three levels of brown so when you first get a brown belt you're brown low. From there you get to brown middle and then brown high. After brown high is first degree black belt. I know that not all styles go like that but for sake of discussion Im using this as an example. So when I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal this is what I mean. In terms of time and difficulty its a much bigger jump to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. It takes much longer and its much harder to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. So what they're doing is they're putting the black belt on a pedestal which I think is a bit ridiculous. Naturally getting a 1st degree black belt will be harder than getting a high level brown belt as its a higher rank but it shouldn't be much harder and it shouldn't take much longer, if it does then there should be ranks in between brown high and first degree black. In Japan the first degree black belt, from what I've heard, is seen as just another belt, simply the belt after brown high and before 2nd degree black. That's how it should be seen in the USA too. If the first degree black belt is not such a big deal as some of the people on this board like to say, than getting from high brown to first degree black shouldn't be such a big jump. Obviously, going from white to black would be a tremendous jump and that's why students don't go from white to black they go through all the various colors of belts, belt by belt, but going from high brown to black shouldn't be such a jump, after all, its only going up one level.



Er&#8230; what? 

Look, I think I get what you're getting at&#8230; but it's largely bluster and wind. There are some large and largely inaccurate generalisations here, as well as quite a lot of misconceptions about the way ranking is dealt with in many forms (historically, contemporarily, and culturally), which gives a result of a fairly directionless post, in the end saying nothing. You're mistaking the relative importance of Shodan (in systems that use it) for what it represents, and what it means/takes to achieve it&#8230; as well as ignoring the cultural reasons for different impressions. Why is a blackbelt seen as "expert" in the West? Well, that's to do with the way Westerners tend to view progressions, as well as the fact that early pioneers had relatively low Dan grades&#8230; the idea of a blackbelt was built up in the zeitgeist as something of value and respect (something that continues today, which is why there is such backlash against junior Dan grades, despite the fact that, as Donald said, it's entirely up to the system/organisation/school itself).

The idea of black being the "last colour" really doesn't mean anything either, you realise&#8230; honestly, I have trouble seeing where to start with the number of problems in that post&#8230;


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## Cirdan (Nov 20, 2014)

Colored belts are not used because white to black would be "a tremendous jump", do you just write down whatever pops into your mind in these posts and pretend it is accurate?


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## hussaf (Nov 20, 2014)

the only people I know that put a black belt on a pedestal don't actually train in Martial arts


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 20, 2014)

hussaf said:


> the only people I know that put a black belt on a pedestal don't actually train in Martial arts



I think you may be wrong on this one.  Beginning students look upon a black belt holder in their system like they are on a different world. 
I think that most people not in the arts tend to say "oh ya that nice" and could care less because almost everyone seems to be a black belt these days.  Being a black belt today means way less than it did 4o years ago


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## hussaf (Nov 20, 2014)

I guess I didn't really consider newer students when I made that statement.  When I was uchideshi I was told I didn't rate an opinion until I've trained for ten years , lol maybe that's what I was subconsciously thinking of


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2014)

I've seen black belts on pedestals after tournaments, but that's really it...


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## Takai (Nov 20, 2014)

It is fine to put a black belt on a pedestal. It is just as simple to knock one off. In the end it isn't the belt color, it is the requirements and skill level require to attain the rank that are important. The belt only covers 2 inches of your %$#... you have to cover the rest of it.


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## Zero (Nov 21, 2014)

hussaf said:


> I guess I didn't really consider newer students when I made that statement.  When I was uchideshi I was told I didn't rate an opinion until I've trained for ten years , lol maybe that's what I was subconsciously thinking of


That's good, if that's your experience, unfortunately I have come across quite a few black belts and in different styles that due to that very belt fancied themselves something shocking and some of them couldn't fight their way out of a perforated recycled paper bag.  Funnily enough, this was more in the striking styles such as TKD and karate rather than the judo.  Not sure how they role in bjj but am sure there are clowns in every style.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 3, 2014)

The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan. Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man." So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.


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## Hanzou (Dec 3, 2014)

Depends on the art really...

In Bjj it can take over a decade to reach a black belt, and you're fully expected to be able to demonstrate the skill of your rank constantly.  Needless to say, black belts in Bjj are put on a pedestal, and its well deserved.


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## K-man (Dec 3, 2014)

It can take a decade to get a black belt in any style. I accept that there is rigorous training to get a black belt in BJJ but I do not accept it has a higher status than a black belt I award in any discipline. Whether other black belts compare is up to the individual schools.


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## Danny T (Dec 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan. Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man." So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.


I don't see why anyone would be concerned about what a rank is in some other school or country for that matter. Rank is base upon what the requirements are for the particular school or organization and that is all. Be concerned about developing your skills and abilities with the organization you are training with. If you are happy with your training great if not then go somewhere else.
The term hard is a subjective thing when applied to testing levels. If you are ready mentally, physically, skill wise, and knowledge wise for the level and material you are testing in then it won't be hard. It may be pushing you to your limits and if you are not prepared properly then yes it will be hard. Is it a fair test for level you are testing for? If so then be ready.

BB is just another level, a milestone for some but for me every BB level I've achieved has only pushed me to work for a better understanding of the system and the potential applications. Some of the arts I train like Kali and Silat don't have belts or ranks until completing the system - other than certain schools for personal goals. In my school when someone achieves BB we clap, pat them on the back, give them a certificate and tell them congratulations now go train.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan. Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man." So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.



Well, no, this is more in your head than anywhere else, I think It's a symptom of your unhealthy obsession with rank and has been commented on before.


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## K-man (Dec 3, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> Colored belts are not used because white to black would be "a tremendous jump", do you just write down whatever pops into your mind in these posts and pretend it is accurate?


I'm not sure that this is what *Touch of Death* was meaning. In my Aikido we didn't have coloured belts at first. We still graded through various levels but kept the white belt. When coloured belts were introduced I went from white to brown.  Going from a white belt to black belt without grading in between would be a tremendous jump.


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## Hanzou (Dec 3, 2014)

K-man said:


> It can take a decade to get a black belt in any style. I accept that there is rigorous training to get a black belt in BJJ but I do not accept it has a higher status than a black belt I award in any discipline. Whether other black belts compare is up to the individual schools.



Who said anything about your school/training or other styles? I was only talking about Bjj.


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## K-man (Dec 3, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Who said anything about your school/training or other styles? I was only talking about Bjj.


Lol. Read the OP again.  *You* were talking about BJJ. The OP is talking about black belts in general. *You* said black belts in BJJ are on a pedestal that infers that they are so much better than other black belts because they take up to 10 years to earn. It is a measure of progress within the BJJ system, nothing more. I cannot compare anyone's black belt with anyone else's so the only comparison I have is belts that I award. They relate to our training and, to me, my students have earned them with every bit of effort that your have put in to earn yours. We don't put our black belts on a pedestal. They are just an indication of where you are on your MA journey. Obviously you are at the pinnacle of your career, up there at the top with your black belt. Sad really, no where further to go.

BTW, do you have a black belt in BJJ?  I have only heard you talk of your Shotokan belt.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 3, 2014)

I was at a award ceremony this summer where a young man was awarded his black belt after 15 years of training.  Dose he consider he should be put on a pedestal or do his family and friends feel that way? NO, because he knows there are those that  know so much more about the system he studies and have way more time in study. 
Are certain people looked on with Awe yes but not because they have a black belt but  for the knowledge they possess and what they have acomplished


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## Hanzou (Dec 3, 2014)

K-man said:


> Lol. Read the OP again.  *You* were talking about BJJ. The OP is talking about black belts in general. *You* said black belts in BJJ are on a pedestal that infers that they are so much better than other black belts because they take up to 10 years to earn



Uh no. I was responding to Hussaf's post. Maybe I should have quoted it?



> It is a measure of progress within the BJJ system, nothing more. I cannot compare anyone's black belt with anyone else's so the only comparison I have is belts that I award.



What are you even talking about? Nobody was comparing Bjj's black belt to anything else. 



> We don't put our black belts on a pedestal.



Good to know.



> BTW, do you have a black belt in BJJ?  I have only heard you talk of your Shotokan belt.



Nope.


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2014)

I think it is a sign of humility to recognise someone's achievements. I have no issue putting black belts on pedestals. Just as i would anybody that has achieved more than i could.

putting yourself on a pedestal is possibly a different thing.


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## K-man (Dec 3, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Uh no. I was responding to Hussaf's post. Maybe I should have quoted it?
> 
> Perhaps you should have.
> 
> ...


I must have misunderstood. I could have sworn you were putting BJJ black belts on a pedestal. Nobody else is putting their black belts on a pedestal so that might imply that you are saying that your black belts were better, what with taking ten years to earn and all that. Yeah, right.


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2014)

K-man said:


> I must have misunderstood. I could have sworn you were putting BJJ black belts on a pedestal. Nobody else is putting their black belts on a pedestal so that might imply that you are saying that your black belts were better, what with taking ten years to earn and all that. Yeah, right.



yes he does put their black belts on a pedestal. He thinks bjj is a good system and that the blackbelts deserve his respect.

i believe the same about mma.

you possibly believe the same about akido.


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## K-man (Dec 3, 2014)

I respect all adult black belts that have been earned with proper effort. If someone from a similar style comes to train with me, I respect and recognise their rank. I think BJJ is a good system too. I respect a black belt from BJJ the same as I respect the black belt from any other reputable martial art. None of them deserve a pedestal. A black belt just means you have reached that level in your training.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> yes he does put their black belts on a pedestal. He thinks bjj is a good system and that the blackbelts deserve his respect.
> 
> i believe the same about mma.
> 
> you possibly believe the same about akido.



To put something (or someone) on a pedestal is generally accepted as meaning you believe  [the object or person] is perfect or more important than others.

Black belts should be accorded the respect due their accomplishments. They should not be put on a pedestal.

Unless it's for a brief period while they're handed their awards.


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## Danny T (Dec 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> yes he does put their black belts on a pedestal. He thinks bjj is a good system and that the blackbelts deserve his respect.
> 
> i believe the same about mma.
> 
> you possibly believe the same about akido.


I agree that he thinks bjj is a good system and blackbelts deserve his respect. 
That you believe the same about mma. (not aware of any ranking specifically in mma other than contender ranking)
Are there now MMA belt ranks?

For me the martial arts is all about respect. I respect all who come to the martial arts putting in the time and effort with a good attitude to constantly better themselves while helping their training partners become better also. Those who stay and earn bb and/or higher are respected for having done so however the level of respect is not because of having earned bb rank. It is simply another level so get back on the mats and help someone else get better as you continue to improve.


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## Hanzou (Dec 3, 2014)

Actually placing someone on a pedestal simply means you hold them in high regard and/or admiration.

I'm still trying to figure out how me placing Bjj BBs on a pedestal is somehow an insult to other MAs because they supposedly don't place their BBs on a pedestal.


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## Danny T (Dec 3, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Actually placing someone on a pedestal simply means you hold them in high regard and/or admiration.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out how me placing Bjj BBs on a pedestal is somehow an insult to other MAs because they supposedly don't place their BBs on a pedestal.



The dictionary gives the definition as;
:the glorifying or idealizing of someone;
:to behave as if one person is more important than others;
:to elevated to a position of reverence
:giving someone uncritical respect or admiration; treat someone as an ideal rather than a real person.
this to me is a bit more than just high regard and/or admiration.

I don't believe you were/are insulting other MAs for many place BBs on a pedestal. Many do.
I don't, though I do give them respect and do admire them for what they have attained.
I happen to have far more admiration by how good one is at being a training partner helping others become better than by one becoming a BB.


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## Cirdan (Dec 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> I'm not sure that this is what *Touch of Death* was meaning. In my Aikido we didn't have coloured belts at first. We still graded through various levels but kept the white belt. When coloured belts were introduced I went from white to brown.  Going from a white belt to black belt without grading in between would be a tremendous jump.



I did not reply to ToD, the OP rather.

Anyway gradings are not jumps, they are just ceremonies and  changing the belt does not change who you are.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2014)

Danny T said:


> I agree that he thinks bjj is a good system and blackbelts deserve his respect.
> That you believe the same about mma. (not aware of any ranking specifically in mma other than contender ranking)
> Are there now MMA belt ranks?
> 
> For me the martial arts is all about respect. I respect all who come to the martial arts putting in the time and effort with a good attitude to constantly better themselves while helping their training partners become better also. Those who stay and earn bb and/or higher are respected for having done so however the level of respect is not because of having earned bb rank. It is simply another level so get back on the mats and help someone else get better as you continue to improve.



there are belts in some schools but we don't have them. Otherwise a title is a title really be it a black belt or a competition ranking. The concept is the same.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> there are belts in some schools but we don't have them. Otherwise a title is a title really be it a black belt or a competition ranking. The concept is the same.



again because i cant edit. If you have a rank in another style and we a wearing a gi wearing the belt is no issue. Which makes our judo class a bit different. We have karate guy judo noob in his black. We have a couple of kudo guys one with a black and one green. I roll around in a white but have been thinking of getting a camo belt. One actual judo girl in an orange.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> To put something (or someone) on a pedestal is generally accepted as meaning you believe  [the object or person] is perfect or more important than others.
> 
> Black belts should be accorded the respect due their accomplishments. They should not be put on a pedestal.
> 
> Unless it's for a brief period while they're handed their awards.



in a martial arts sense some people are more important. That is why you afford them the respect.

same as any activity that you would be passionate about.


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## Cirdan (Dec 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> again because i cant edit. If you have a rank in another style and we a wearing a gi wearing the belt is no issue. Which makes our judo class a bit different. We have karate guy judo noob in his black. We have a couple of kudo guys one with a black and one green. I roll around in a white but have been thinking of getting a camo belt. One actual judo girl in an orange.



Why would you want a camo belt? Just curious. Sorry if  missed something.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> Why would you want a camo belt? Just curious. Sorry if  missed something.



looks cool.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 4, 2014)

Uh… no.



PhotonGuy said:


> The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan.



As has been said many, many, many times in this thread, that all completely depends on the system, school, organisation, instructor etc… but, in general, no, Shodan is not "just another rank"… at least, not in the way you're thinking. We'll cover that in a bit.



PhotonGuy said:


> Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man."



What? Where on earth did you get that from? In no way whatsoever does it mean "low man"…that would be gejin… or kajin… and would be written 下人 (literally: low person)… Shodan, on the other hand, literally means "initial level", and is written 初段. Absolutely no connection between the terms at all… I don't even know where to start with describing just how far from the idea of Shodan "low man" would be.



PhotonGuy said:


> So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.



Because it can be a big deal… even in Japan… depending on the school itself. In some, it's really not anything to be excited about… you can earn a Shodan in a range of arts by training in them as part of your high school study, for example… but, just as commonly, it's a marked occasion. The reason is that it's representative (in many cases) of the students' moving on to a more in-depth study of the system. At that point, they've proven themselves worthy of gaining entrance to the arts and their teachings… and, before knowing that a student is ready for that, it's quite reasonable to consider that the test (to ascertain their suitability) be a little more than what's been done before.

Before Shodan (or, in more traditional systems, before gaining entrance to anything beyond the basic levels of a Ryu-ha), the student is only focusing on basics… a test to determine if you're suitable to go beyond that has to be fairly substantial.

Everything has reasons. Even if you don't see them.


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## Zero (Dec 4, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Actually placing someone on a pedestal simply means you hold them in high regard and/or admiration.



It may just be a lost in translation point.  Not sure where you are from but now days the phrase "placing one on a pedestal" to an English speaker, at least in many Western countries, has certain connotations or implications that are not necessarily as favourable as a literal reading of those words.  "Putting someone on a pedestal" can imply such person, while being good, does not necessarily merit such attention or being raised to such a level beyond that of others, in that they may actually be somewhat undeserving of being singled out.

I would say very few people actually deserve to be "metaphorically" put on a pedestal. Certainly not black belts per se and not simply for passing the bb examination. To be put on a pedestal with true merit in my mind this would be someone of the level of an Olympic medallist or a national/international level fighter (or kata exponent).  Alternatively and away from competition, it would need to be someone very senior and/or accomplished in their martial art lineage or field.  I have deep respect for my school sensei, who is 4th dan, but would not put him on a pedestal (and importantly, and this speaks volumes of the individual, he would probably in distaste try to bash me over the head with said metaphorical pedestal if I did!!).  The head of the martial art system would be another matter.

Not sure if that helps at all?


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## Cirdan (Dec 4, 2014)

I think it is a mistake to put anything on a pedestal, be it things, symbols, concepts or especially people. 

_"Beware of heroes. Much better to rely on your own judgment, and your own mistakes"_


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## Zero (Dec 4, 2014)

Beware of false prophets and...I forget how the rest goes...


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## Hanzou (Dec 4, 2014)

Zero said:


> It may just be a lost in translation point.  Not sure where you are from but now days the phrase "placing one on a pedestal" to an English speaker, at least in many Western countries, has certain connotations or implications that are not necessarily as favourable as a literal reading of those words.  "Putting someone on a pedestal" can imply such person, while being good, does not necessarily merit such attention or being raised to such a level beyond that of others, in that they may actually be somewhat undeserving of being singled out.
> 
> I would say very few people actually deserve to be "metaphorically" put on a pedestal. Certainly not black belts per se and not simply for passing the bb examination. To be put on a pedestal with true merit in my mind this would be someone of the level of an Olympic medallist or a national/international level fighter (or kata exponent).  Alternatively and away from competition, it would need to be someone very senior and/or accomplished in their martial art lineage or field.  I have deep respect for my school sensei, who is 4th dan, but would not put him on a pedestal (and importantly, and this speaks volumes of the individual, he would probably in distaste try to bash me over the head with said metaphorical pedestal if I did!!).  The head of the martial art system would be another matter.
> 
> Not sure if that helps at all?



I think part of the problem is that the ranking system in Bjj is quite a bit different than the ranking systems of other martial arts. In Bjj, a blue belt is the equivalent of a black belt in a lot of styles. A Bjj purple belt is instructional level, and that's the equivalent of a second or third degree BB in many systems. Most people don't make it past blue, much less purple due to the requirement of time invested. Also the promotions can be a little wacky sometimes. Your instructor will just come in one day and give you a stripe and say congratulations. Sometimes your instructor doesn't promote you for a very long time. So yeah, if you make it to black, that's quite a accomplishment.

Then there's the expectations that come along with being a black belt. You're tested constantly by just about everyone. Tapping a black belt is a massive accomplishment in Bjj, and its everyone's dream from white to purple to tap one out. So you have a big target on your back, and if you get tapped, you lose respect. The last thing you want is to be the Bjj school that puts out soft black belts. As a Shotokan black belt, I never had to worry about anything like that. No one ever came into my dojo wanting to fight me or anything, and I never had to spar with lower belts who wanted to take my head off. However, in my time in Bjj my instructor or co-instructor have been challenged many times, and the entire school watches when it takes place.

So yeah, that's where my reasoning comes from.


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## Zero (Dec 4, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I think part of the problem is that the ranking system in Bjj is quite a bit different than the ranking systems of other martial arts. In Bjj, a blue belt is the equivalent of a black belt in a lot of styles. A Bjj purple belt is instructional level, and that's the equivalent of a second or third degree BB in many systems. Most people don't make it past blue, much less purple due to the requirement of time invested. Also the promotions can be a little wacky sometimes. Your instructor will just come in one day and give you a stripe and say congratulations. Sometimes your instructor doesn't promote you for a very long time. So yeah, if you make it to black, that's quite a accomplishment.
> 
> Then there's the expectations that come along with being a black belt. You're tested constantly by just about everyone. Tapping a black belt is a massive accomplishment in Bjj, and its everyone's dream from white to purple to tap one out. So you have a big target on your back, and if you get tapped, you lose respect. The last thing you want is to be the Bjj school that puts out soft black belts. As a Shotokan black belt, I never had to worry about anything like that. No one ever came into my dojo wanting to fight me or anything, and I never had to spar with lower belts who wanted to take my head off. However, in my time in Bjj my instructor or co-instructor have been challenged many times, and the entire school watches when it takes place.
> 
> So yeah, that's where my reasoning comes from.



??
I follow what you're saying but from a karate context and your comments on Shotokan, I can't really relate to your experience at all (which is fine, maybe your club was very different).  As a bb in goju ryu and even when starting as a junior (having come across as quite a senior TKD practitioner) I was quite often fighting with people coming from other clubs (I too went to spar or at times "challenge" myself/them at different clubs, in fact the very reason I joined my goju club is that I was a good TKD tournament fighter and at this club got annihilated by the second sensei who I'd mistaken as just some old geezer, who was about the third person I fought with on the night).

When training or sparring with the lower belts and juniors in my club I always had to focus as they were always trying to "take my head off" - not in a personal way - but so to better themselves.  Now and then a junior would throw a beautiful strike or kick after a great feint or the like and catch me a good one. Sometimes I was startled but we all had a laugh and full credit to them!  Just as I would now and then manage to submit or get a point off the sensei.

No one lost any respect "loosing" to a lower level practitioner and no one was worried about that, everyone simply wants to perform to the best of their ability.  I find it hard to believe that for some reason in bjj a senior loses respect for that??  Really?  That's harsh and doesn't stack up a bit with the bjj, judo and jj guys (some quite senior) that would also train at our club from time to time and freestyle with us.  Sure, it may be a bit questionable if they tap to a very junior student but weird stuff happens in MA right up to championship and world title level, sometimes the under-dog just gets lucky.

Would you lose respect for your instructor if she tapped out to someone better or "worse" than her?


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## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2014)

Zero said:


> _It may just be a lost in translation point.  Not sure where you are from but now days the phrase "placing one on a pedestal" to an English speaker, at least in many Western countries, has certain connotations or implications that are not necessarily as favourable as a literal reading of those words.  "Putting someone on a pedestal" can imply such person, while being good, does not necessarily merit such attention or being raised to such a level beyond that of others, in that they may actually be somewhat undeserving of being singled out._
> 
> I would say very few people actually deserve to be "metaphorically" put on a pedestal. Certainly not black belts per se and not simply for passing the bb examination. To be put on a pedestal with true merit in my mind this would be someone of the level of an Olympic medallist or a national/international level fighter (or kata exponent).  Alternatively and away from competition, it would need to be someone very senior and/or accomplished in their martial art lineage or field.  I have deep respect for my school sensei, who is 4th dan, but would not put him on a pedestal (and importantly, and this speaks volumes of the individual, he would probably in distaste try to bash me over the head with said metaphorical pedestal if I did!!).  The head of the martial art system would be another matter.
> 
> Not sure if that helps at all?



I agree, the implications when one says they 'put someone on a pedestal' tends to mean someone is placed higher in regard than is actually merited. Usually the term 'feet of clay' comes into use with that.

As for the BJJ black belt, I know a couple and if they are tapped out they do not lose respect at all, if they do* it speaks volumes about* _*other people not them*. I would say such peoples' respect isn't genuine in that case._ Respect for the person who tapped them out will grow, admiration too probably but to lose respect for someone just because they have tapped, no way.


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## Cirdan (Dec 4, 2014)

It is not a big deal to be tapped out by a lower ranked student, when rolling with white or yellow belts I often give them some extra opportunities to get me so they will learn and grow. The whole "I`ll loose respect in everyone`s eyes" is ego in it`s purest form and one should get rid of this as soon as possible.


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## K-man (Dec 4, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I think part of the problem is that the ranking system in Bjj is quite a bit different than the ranking systems of other martial arts. In Bjj, a blue belt is the equivalent of a black belt in a lot of styles. A Bjj purple belt is instructional level, and that's the equivalent of a second or third degree BB in many systems. Most people don't make it past blue, much less purple due to the requirement of time invested. Also the promotions can be a little wacky sometimes. Your instructor will just come in one day and give you a stripe and say congratulations. Sometimes your instructor doesn't promote you for a very long time. So yeah, if you make it to black, that's quite a accomplishment.
> 
> Then there's the expectations that come along with being a black belt. You're tested constantly by just about everyone. Tapping a black belt is a massive accomplishment in Bjj, and its everyone's dream from white to purple to tap one out. So you have a big target on your back, and if you get tapped, you lose respect. The last thing you want is to be the Bjj school that puts out soft black belts. As a Shotokan black belt, I never had to worry about anything like that. No one ever came into my dojo wanting to fight me or anything, and I never had to spar with lower belts who wanted to take my head off. However, in my time in Bjj my instructor or co-instructor have been challenged many times, and the entire school watches when it takes place.
> 
> So yeah, that's where my reasoning comes from.


I think you have an inflated idea of relative ranking. A blue belt is the equivalent of other styles black belts and purple is equivalent to third dan. Yeah right. Each BJJ belt is a measure of your progress within BJJ. There is nothing to suggest that a purple belt is the same as a third dan belt in another style.




> Brown belt typically requires at least five years of dedicated training to achieve.
> 
> The IBJJF requires that a student be at least 19 years old and recommends they have spent a minimum of 1 year ranked as a brown belt to be eligible for a black belt.
> Brazilian jiu-jitsu ranking system - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



Perhaps you could point out if this information is wrong. Here they are talking about a minimum of six years to black belt. That's about the same as for Aikido or Karate. Normally 18 months to go from brown to black in Karate, only 12 months for BJJ.


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## Hanzou (Dec 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> I think you have an inflated idea of relative ranking. A blue belt is the equivalent of other styles black belts and purple is equivalent to third dan. Yeah right. Each BJJ belt is a measure of your progress within BJJ. There is nothing to suggest that a purple belt is the same as a third dan belt in another style.



I'm simply talking about time spent in style. 8 years in many styles can easily put you in 2nd degree BB range. A lot of Bjj purples have been training for about that time. Hence why purples are allowed to teach classes.



> Perhaps you could point out if this information is wrong. Here they are talking about a minimum of six years to black belt. That's about the same as for Aikido or Karate. Normally 18 months to go from brown to black in Karate, only 12 months for BJJ.



It isn't wrong, but that's the minimum requirement, not the average. Yeah, if you practice every day or are part of a competition team, you could definitely get your BB in Bjj in about six years. However, if you're going 2-3 times a week for a couple of hours, its can take considerably longer. Again, the promotion system in Bjj can get wacky. 

Example;


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## Hanzou (Dec 4, 2014)

Zero said:
			
		

> Would you lose respect for your instructor if she tapped out to someone better or "worse" than her?



How worse are we talking? If he or she's rolling against a high level purple, and gets tapped, no problem. Some backyard wrestler off the street? Maybe.


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## Zero (Dec 4, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> I agree, the modern meaning of 'putting them o
> 
> 
> I agree, the implications when one says they 'put someone on a pedestal' tends to mean someone is placed higher in regard than is actually merited. Usually the term 'feet of clay' comes into use with that.
> ...



Oss!


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## Danny T (Dec 4, 2014)

This thread, as a whole, is a good example of the diversity of rank/belts in the many different systems and even schools within the systems. There is no specific standard across the full spectrum and that can be confusing to those in the martial arts and even worse for those outside of it.
I have several students who have bbs in other systems training with our school now who say our bb's are more like 4th or 5th in their previous schools. I also have a couple of collegiate wrestlers (who have no rank), several bjjers from white to 2 bbs who also train with us. Their ground games are just as diverse as are their striking skills. However the non ranked wrestlers best the bbs just as much as the bbs best the wrestles with working their ground game. The rank here means nothing. When it comes to striking I have a few very low ranked practitioners who are gifted with heavy hands. Even with little training they simple hit hard, very hard and will become excellent strikers. Two are yellow sashes in our ranking that is about 12 months in and are more powerful punchers than many of the higher ranked students. The difference is in overall refinement vs skill in punching or power development. To us Rank means little, to us.
Respect, conditioning, attitude, heart, commitment, helpfulness is much more important.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 4, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Depends on the art really...
> 
> In Bjj it can take over a decade to reach a black belt, and you're fully expected to be able to demonstrate the skill of your rank constantly.  Needless to say, black belts in Bjj are put on a pedestal, and its well deserved.


Does it take over a decade to go from white to black or from brown to black?


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## Zero (Dec 4, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> How worse are we talking? If he or she's rolling against a high level purple, and gets tapped, no problem. Some backyard wrestler off the street? Maybe.



Again, and no disrespect if I get this wrong, but your comments don't seem to imply much real world experience here. OK, appreciate what I should say is, that it does not reflect much, or any, of "my" experience.

How long have you been practicing bjj?

Have you ever competed in bjj and at what level?

I only ask to try and get a flavour of where you are coming from?

It's the backyard wrestlers off the street that come into the dojo which are the ones you often need to watch.  Yes, you would expect a senior bjj or wrestling instructor through superior skill, endurance, fight discipline to overcome such a person.  But it is the unknown quantities from other styles or off the street as you put it, that can surprise you or catch you off guard sometimes due to their unorthodox fighting style or irregular/unexpected (ie not doing what most bjj practitioners would do in response to such a move) responses.  You should also know in fighting not to pre-judge a book by its cover.

Unless your implication that by being a "back-street wrestler" is that the individual is lacking in actual fighting ability and/or in physical capability?

You may be disappointed in your instructor if they patently underestimated this type and thus tapped out but to lose a fight to such may cause a few raised eyebrows but would not, I hope, lose respect in the eyes of your peers or club colleagues (...unless perhaps if each peer then went on to wipe the floor with the guy and with ease, again, that would raise some questions).  More likely, I would expect them to have a laugh about what a handful said street brawler/wrestler was and possibly ask for a match-up themselves, provided he had fought "cleanly".

Now in a strike context, I would use the analogy of someone like Kimbo Slice or Lenny McLean in his prime coming into a striking club, any heavy weight practitioners in said club that were to mix it with them would need to be very cautious with such.  There is more than likely an equivalent analogy with wrestlers.


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## Danny T (Dec 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Does it take over a decade to go from white to black or from brown to black?


PhotonGuy look at post # 45. Hanzou has a time in grade listing that will answer your question.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 4, 2014)

To address the BJJ black belt derail...

The IBJJF rules are for _minimum_ time in rank and do not represent anything like typical progression.

The typical BJJ black belt is awarded for a degree of skill, knowledge, and sparring ability that a reasonably talented student with an above-average work ethic might reach in 10-15 years. I've been training BJJ for 12 years (2-3 days per week in the beginning, 4-6 days per week in recent years). I have a brown belt in the art and I estimate that I have at _least_ a couple more years before receiving my black belt. (I'm somewhat hard working, but not particularly talented or athletic.)

BJJ promotions are heavily weighted towards proven ability on the mats. Some folks will never get their black belt even if they train for 20 years. On the other hand, you have the occasional phenomenal world-class athlete who trains full time and gets their black belt in under 5 years.

(You also have the practice of "sandbagging" in some academies which are focused on tournament competition. Coaches will hold off on promoting students for a long time until they have the chance to win a few tournaments in their division.)

There are schools in other arts which have similarly strict promotion guidelines, but they're not so common.

Hanzou's assertion regarding BJJ blue belt = other art's shodan is a little bit of a stretch. Maybe a BJJ blue belt at a particularly tough academy might represent an equivalent degree of time and effort as a black belt at a McDojang which hands out black belts to anyone who shows up regularly for a couple of years.

It's important to remember that different guidelines for promotions in different arts or schools has no particular bearing on the quality or toughness of training. It's just a matter of the label you put on things. In one school a student of average ability who trains hard for 5 years might be called a purple belt, in another they might be called a black belt, in another they might be called a second degree black belt, in another they might not be called anything at all. Whatever label you want to stick on them, they've still got whatever benefits that come from 5 years of hard work.

On the idea of losing respect for someone who gets tapped out, it has a lot to do with how you view the purpose of sparring. If you consider it as a test to prove who is better, then you'll get a lot of ego invested in not tapping. If you view it as a chance to learn, then you will get tapped a lot more often because you will be putting yourself in situations where you have the possibility of failure.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2014)

Zero said:


> ??
> I follow what you're saying but from a karate context and your comments on Shotokan, I can't really relate to your experience at all (which is fine, maybe your club was very different).  As a bb in goju ryu and even when starting as a junior (having come across as quite a senior TKD practitioner) I was quite often fighting with people coming from other clubs (I too went to spar or at times "challenge" myself/them at different clubs, in fact the very reason I joined my goju club is that I was a good TKD tournament fighter and at this club got annihilated by the second sensei who I'd mistaken as just some old geezer, who was about the third person I fought with on the night).
> 
> When training or sparring with the lower belts and juniors in my club I always had to focus as they were always trying to "take my head off" - not in a personal way - but so to better themselves.  Now and then a junior would throw a beautiful strike or kick after a great feint or the like and catch me a good one. Sometimes I was startled but we all had a laugh and full credit to them!  Just as I would now and then manage to submit or get a point off the sensei.
> ...



there are bjj clubs that have issues with people tapping out their high belts. I know a few quality mmaers who have received the serious snooty for it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> there are bjj clubs that have issues with people tapping out their high belts. I know a few quality mmaers who have received the serious snooty for it.



Yeah, these are people who have *way* too much of their self-esteem tied up in considering themselves at the top of some hierarchy. For anyone feeling the temptation to fall into that mindset, I would toss out a couple of reminders:

1) There are a lot of people in the world who have grappling skills besides high-ranking BJJers: wrestlers, judoka, sambists, shootfighters, MMAers, and many others. Even among individuals who don't have a high level of training, some have extraordinary physical attributes or natural talent.
2) Getting tapped is a learning opportunity, not a personal insult or an affront to your manhood.


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## Danny T (Dec 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> there are bjj clubs that have issues with people tapping out their high belts. I know a few quality mmaers who have received the serious snooty for it.


Been there. Still a white belt in bjj, but been wrestling and grappling since 14. Not a great wrestler but have been shunned several times when visiting other clubs. I always say I have some wrestling and some bjj having been doing it since 14. But being known more as a wing chun guy some seem to get their undies in a wad when I hold my own with them. Not all but some. And yes it's all ego.


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## Zero (Dec 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> there are bjj clubs that have issues with people tapping out their high belts. I know a few quality mmaers who have received the serious snooty for it.



From how you state that, I take it that it may be the club (or persons in the club) and not the actual quality mmaer who is tapped out, that take issue and get snooty. Perhaps that is understandable with all the commercial considerations that need to be taken into account for said club when the top fighter in their stable loses and particularly if loses to an under-dog (which actually happens quite a bit in MMA - UFC/StrikeForce and old Pride).  Such a shame but no escaping the influence of ego and money on most everything.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 4, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Been there. Still a white belt in bjj, but been wrestling and grappling since 14. Not a great wrestler but have been shunned several times when visiting other clubs. I always say I have some wrestling and some bjj having been doing it since 14. But being known more as a wing chun guy some seem to get their undies in a wad when I hold my own with them. Not all but some. And yes it's all ego.



The real shame is that the guys who avoid working with you are depriving themselves of a great learning opportunity. Part of becoming a skilled grappler is working with as many kinds of training partners as possible: big, little, aggressive, patient, strong, flexible, explosive, technical, jiujiteiros, judoka, wrestlers, sambists, MMAers, untrained natural athletes, kung fu practioners, karateka, whoever. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. The more experience with the more kinds of movement you can get, the better.


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## Danny T (Dec 4, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The real shame is that the guys who avoid working with you are depriving themselves of a great learning opportunity. Part of becoming a skilled grappler is working with as many kinds of training partners as possible: big, little, aggressive, patient, strong, flexible, explosive, technical, jiujiteiros, judoka, wrestlers, sambists, MMAers, untrained natural athletes, kung fu practioners, karateka, whoever. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. The more experience with the more kinds of movement you can get, the better.


A lot of truth there Tony.
Participated in a seminar (BJJ Revolution with Rodrigo Medeiros) about a month ago. While working on the associated drills he came up to me remarking asking, "what have you been training in an how long?" He had one of the purple belts come over to work with me. The guy was very respectful but it was apparent he didn't want to have to work with a white belt. He quickly realized my abilities were a bit more than he expected and we got along very well. Toward the end of the seminar several of the purples and browns were interested in rolling. Was an excellent experience for all. I was asked by Mederios to stay afterward for an extra short No Gi session. In all honesty I fared much better then without the gi. I do believe though had Medeiros not requested the purple belt work with me I would have been with the other whites and some blues the entire seminar and nor had the opportunity to work with the browns.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 4, 2014)

Danny T said:


> A lot of truth there Tony.
> Participated in a seminar (BJJ Revolution with Rodrigo Medeiros) about a month ago. While working on the associated drills he came up to me remarking asking, "what have you been training in an how long?" He had one of the purple belts come over to work with me. The guy was very respectful but it was apparent he didn't want to have to work with a white belt. He quickly realized my abilities were a bit more than he expected and we got along very well. Toward the end of the seminar several of the purples and browns were interested in rolling. Was an excellent experience for all. I was asked by Mederios to stay afterward for an extra short No Gi session. In all honesty I fared much better then without the gi. I do believe though had Medeiros not requested the purple belt work with me I would have been with the other whites and some blues the entire seminar and nor had the opportunity to work with the browns.



One of our sharper purple belts went to a big martial arts expo with multiple seminars by top instructors (in Las Vegas I think?) over the summer. He told me that for one of the no-gi sessions everybody except him was decked out in brand-name rashguards and gear, while he was just in an old t-shirt and gym shorts. For some reason this caused folks to initially think that he was a beginner who didn't know anything. People are silly sometimes.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 4, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, no, this is more in your head than anywhere else, I think It's a symptom of your unhealthy obsession with rank and has been commented on before.



If I do have an unhealthy obsession with rank Im dealing with it. How? By talking about it here.


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## Hanzou (Dec 4, 2014)

Zero said:


> Again, and no disrespect if I get this wrong, but your comments don't seem to imply much real world experience here. OK, appreciate what I should say is, that it does not reflect much, or any, of "my" experience.



8 years (not consistently due to injury and life). Just got my purple in July.



> Have you ever competed in bjj and at what level?



A couple of times at white belt, and a few times while blue. Stopped due to injury in my knee. 



> I only ask to try and get a flavour of where you are coming from?
> 
> It's the backyard wrestlers off the street that come into the dojo which are the ones you often need to watch.  Yes, you would expect a senior bjj or wrestling instructor through superior skill, endurance, fight discipline to overcome such a person.  But it is the unknown quantities from other styles or off the street as you put it, that can surprise you or catch you off guard sometimes due to their unorthodox fighting style or irregular/unexpected (ie not doing what most bjj practitioners would do in response to such a move) responses.  You should also know in fighting not to pre-judge a book by its cover.
> 
> ...



The culture is a bit hard to explain. I suppose if you were "brought up" in such a Bjj system like I was it would be a bit more understandable. I wouldn't say its ego per say. The simplest way I can say it is that you don't want to be from a school that produces soft black belts. If a couple of black belt visit your school and get tapped by blue belts, that simply looks bad on the school where their coming from, and word gets around pretty quickly that school X is producing soft black belts.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> If I do have an unhealthy obsession with rank Im dealing with it. How? By talking about it here.



Well, no... "dealing with it" implies that the problem is being addressed. You know.. changing the behavior. You're not "dealing with it".


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## Danny T (Dec 4, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> The culture is a bit hard to explain. I suppose if you were "brought up" in such a Bjj system like I was it would be a bit more understandable. I wouldn't say its ego per say. The simplest way I can say it is that you don't want to be from a school that produces soft black belts. If a couple of black belt visit your school and get tapped by blue belts, that simply looks bad on the school where their coming from, and word gets around pretty quickly that school X is producing soft black belts.


Hanzou I'm more inclined to believe it is more of an individual or perhaps an individual school/gym culture than through out the BJJ world. Though I have had my share of being shunned by individuals most of the schools I have visited the higher ranked members were very respectful and accommodating even when being tapped out. Some yes but for the most part I have found when it is happening it is because it is allowed. Far more times the black belts have been very humble and when I have visiting BJJers in my school I've never had concern. But at my school everyone rolls with everyone else and if you are a lot better than the other you lower your game to their level and play. When that happens sometimes the lower skilled gets the tap. Great for everyone unless the ego is  there. I really like Pedro Sauer's take on rolling. He says play Jiujitsu, play like you would be playing with a 6 year old and everyone get better much faster.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2014)

Brazilians are pretty concerned about respect and saving face.

i once went ot a capoeira roda that resulted in a punch up.


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## Zero (Dec 5, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> 8 years (not consistently due to injury and life). Just got my purple in July.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for those answers!

Yes, I agree with and understand the bolded wording of yours.  That is the same with my experience in both TKD and karate.  Word would get around if their bbs were often being beaten in tournaments or in inter-club meetings by lesser ranks from other schools for sure.  I think that would be in any style.  And then that would lead to the owner or sensei of that school, if they ever had any, probably losing respect (or perhaps credibility is the more appropriate word) in the eyes of others.

Again, if that happened consistently to an individual senior, you would start to question just what their rank/belt had been awarded for.  And if that bb had been acting like a hero etc simply because of his belt colour well yes, any respect you may have had for him would probably be diminished.

I was more talking about the individual senior tapping to a junior in a one-off situation, or now and then.  It seems from your comments and some others that in certain bjj clubs (or maybe on a wider basis in bjj) this is also frowned on more than I am used to in my background.  That does surprise me a bit (as I have not seen that really in karate or the muay thai or kickboxing clubs I have trained out of and I don't recall that from the 6 years of judo I did before karate or the jiujitsu I dappled in while doing goju) but may well just be a difference that really does exist for bjj.


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## Zero (Dec 5, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Brazilians are pretty concerned about respect and saving face.
> 
> i once went ot a capoeira roda that resulted in a punch up.



Yes.  However, I don't see the Japanese being any less concerned about loss of face.  Korean's from my own experience and what I have been told can also be very extreme in that respect.  In fact, given the inclination towards seppuku I would say historically and possibly even currently, culturally the Japanese may be more concerned about loss of face than Brazilians.  I have worked (and am currently working) with quite a few Brazilians and have acted for them on business in Brazil and as an outsider I do not see the same cultural degree of concern over lack of face that I do see with the likes of the Japanese.  Oh and just to be clear, I have full respect for both Brazilians and Japanese and any other race or culture that is.

Even I a simple white Westerner, while trying to keep my ego in check, am not entirely wedded to the idea of loosing face or respect in the eyes of those I hold in esteem.

Therefore, I am not sure how you are applying your statement and what it is in support of?


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## drop bear (Dec 5, 2014)

Zero said:


> Yes.  However, I don't see the Japanese being any less concerned about loss of face.  Korean's from my own experience and what I have been told can also be very extreme in that respect.  In fact, given the inclination towards seppuku I would say historically and possibly even currently, culturally the Japanese may be more concerned about loss of face than Brazilians.
> 
> Therefore, I am not sure how you are applying your statement and what it is in support of?



that the culture rolls over into the art.


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## Zero (Dec 5, 2014)

drop bear said:


> that the culture rolls over into the art.


Right, thanks. 

But I think from my reasoning and observations that the same would be equally so for the Asian arts?  Sure you have a lot of Westerners practising these now but the same is the case with bjj nowadays.  On that reasoning don't you think Japanese culture to the same extent infused itself into karate?

Why would there be a difference?


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## drop bear (Dec 5, 2014)

Zero said:


> Right, thanks.
> 
> But I think from my reasoning and observations that the same would be equally so for the Asian arts?  Sure you have a lot of Westerners practising these now but the same is the case with bjj nowadays.  On that reasoning don't you think Japanese culture to the same extent infused itself into karate?
> 
> Why would there be a difference?



is there a difference?

our local karate shihan has head kicked a few dojo stormers in his time.


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## Zero (Dec 5, 2014)

drop bear said:


> is there a difference?
> 
> our local karate shihan has head kicked a few dojo stormers in his time.



Now we seem to be talking about different matters.  It was not the kicking of heads as such but the result of said shihan (or bjj purple) loosing to that dojo-stormer that has been under discussion until now. 

With what you are raising now, I would agree that there is not any difference.


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## drop bear (Dec 5, 2014)

Zero said:


> Now we seem to be talking about different matters.  It was not the kicking of heads as such but the result of said shihan (or bjj purple) loosing to that dojo-stormer that has been under discussion until now.
> 
> With what you are raising now, I would agree that there is not any difference.



as far as loosing. It is a fight. There is risk. And then how culturally a style will deal with that.

i have no idea how the Japanese deal with a loss from someone who is of lower class


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## K-man (Dec 5, 2014)

drop bear said:


> as far as loosing. It is a fight. There is risk. And then how culturally a style will deal with that.
> 
> i have no idea how the Japanese deal with a loss from someone who is of lower class


It's called Seppuku.


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## donald1 (Dec 5, 2014)

K-man said:


> It's called Seppuku.


i thought they only did that when commited an serious offence


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 5, 2014)

OK I know that with the BJJ system that it does take years to advance. The belts they use are white, blue, purple, brown, and black and then I believe for some really high dan ranks they might use a red and white belt or a red belt. Usually it takes years to go up a belt so I can see how it would take around 10 years total to get a black belt in that system. The thing is, though, I don't believe it would take much longer to get from brown to black than it would to get from purple to brown, in both cases it would take years. If it were to take, say, two years to get from purple to brown and then five years to get from brown to black that would be a big difference and a big jump but with BJJ I don't think that's the case.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 5, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> OK I know that with the BJJ system that it does take years to advance. The belts they use are white, blue, purple, brown, and black and then I believe for some really high dan ranks they might use a red and white belt or a red belt. Usually it takes years to go up a belt so I can see how it would take around 10 years total to get a black belt in that system. The thing is, though, I don't believe it would take much longer to get from brown to black than it would to get from purple to brown, in both cases it would take years. If it were to take, say, two years to get from purple to brown and then five years to get from brown to black that would be a big difference and a big jump but with BJJ I don't think that's the case.



Yeah, typically you're looking at 2-3 years from purple to brown and then another 2-3 years from brown to black.

That's just an average, though. It can vary considerably depending on the instructor and on the student. I've also seen cases where a student gets stuck ( for various reasons) at one particular rank in the progression for a long, long time.


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## K-man (Dec 5, 2014)

donald1 said:


> i thought they only did that when commited an serious offence


Losing ,for some, is a capital offence.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 5, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, typically you're looking at 2-3 years from purple to brown and then another 2-3 years from brown to black.
> 
> That's just an average, though. It can vary considerably depending on the instructor and on the student. I've also seen cases where a student gets stuck ( for various reasons) at one particular rank in the progression for a long, long time.



That would make sense for it to take 2-3 years to go from brown to black if it takes 2-3 years to go from purple to brown. If a student gets stuck at a particular rank for much longer I do think its important that the student knows why they're stuck so they would need to know what they should work on and fix so they won't stay stuck. That is if the student wants to advance. I've known students who are content with the rank they've got and won't care about any further advancement but for a student who does want to advance, it makes sense they should know what they need to do.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 5, 2014)

K-man said:


> Losing ,for some, is a capital offence.


Especially if it is a fight to the death.


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## Zero (Dec 8, 2014)

donald1 said:


> i thought they only did that when commited an serious offence


Not only, and what we may now-days see as quite minor was at that time possible of being seen as "serious". 
There are records of samurai being ordered to commit seppuku where in defeating an opponent, not in battle but in a one-to-one altercation, they were merciful and did not finish the defeated opponent off with their sword.  This was seen to be not in keeping with the Samurai Way.
Also there was "tsuifuku", where retainers would commit seppuku when their master/lord died.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 9, 2014)

Hmm… all this talk of seppuku is… how to put this… not entirely correct… or, in places, only correct in places (and times, and so forth)… and I don't think entirely in keeping with this line of discussion. If I'm not mistaken, K-man initially brought it up as a tongue-in-cheek comment about Japanese losing… it's quite a deep topic, and one that isn't commonly described lightly…


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> Losing ,for some, is a capital offence.


Especially if you get killed......


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## K-man (Dec 9, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… all this talk of seppuku is… how to put this… not entirely correct… or, in places, only correct in places (and times, and so forth)… and I don't think entirely in keeping with this line of discussion. *If I'm not mistaken, K-man initially brought it up as a tongue-in-cheek comment about Japanese losing*… it's quite a deep topic, and one that isn't commonly described lightly…


Alas, yet another example of the lack of suitable emoticons. But hopefully the cheesy grin helped give that impression.


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## Zero (Dec 10, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… all this talk of seppuku is… how to put this… not entirely correct… or, in places, only correct in places (and times, and so forth)… and I don't think entirely in keeping with this line of discussion. If I'm not mistaken, K-man initially brought it up as a tongue-in-cheek comment about Japanese losing… it's quite a deep topic, and one that isn't commonly described lightly…


Why don't you start it off as a deeper topic somewhere more appropriate (I thought my references to it were pretty correct, but had also raised it more as a joke initially)?  I have just re-read Hagakure by Tsunetomo and all the references to Seppuku and Tsuifuku made quite an impression but I am not going to open myself up with a can-opener anytime soon.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 10, 2014)

Hey, Zero,

A couple of reasons… for one, I'm not fond of public discussions of such ideas… for another, it is really a fair bit beyond the conversation here (even in a new thread)… there's a couple more, but they're the main ones.

With regards to Hagakure, it's a very interesting tome… but isn't really definitive the way it's often taken… and most of the stories surrounding such ideas are more about the edges rather than the spine, so to speak….


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 10, 2014)

So anyway, in this other thread somebody pointed out that if they didn't use rank in the martial arts that would be like if they were to get rid of medals in the military, medals given out for acts of valor, ect. I said that it would be more like getting rid of rank but then somebody pointed out that you can't get rid of rank in the military because of how the military is based on a hierarchy that is determined by rank and that not all dojos are like that. So, I would say a better comparison would be if they were to get rid of letter grades in school, (A, B, C, D, F) that would be more like getting rid of martial arts rank whether its shown by belts or otherwise.


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## Zero (Dec 10, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, in this other thread somebody pointed out that if they didn't use rank in the martial arts that would be like if they were to get rid of medals in the military, medals given out for acts of valor, ect. I said that it would be more like getting rid of rank but then somebody pointed out that you can't get rid of rank in the military because of how the military is *based on a hierarchy that is determined by rank and that not all dojos are like that*. So, I would say a better comparison would be if they were to get rid of letter grades in school, (A, B, C, D, F) that would be more like getting rid of martial arts rank whether its shown by belts or otherwise.



I'm trying to work this out.  So not giving kids exam marks is the same as taking away belt ranks?

How many dojos are you aware of that don't operate on some form of hierarchy interconnected with rank? Am yet to come across a school run by something akin to a white belt (although technically speaking, while it may not be the most successful, there is probably no hurdle in certain styles for a white-belt to own a school...)

It didn't come from you I take it but for me the idea of equating belts/ranks to that of military medals chaffs somewhat.


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## Hanzou (Dec 10, 2014)

There's quite a few MAs out there that don't have rank at all. Boxing and MMA immediately come to mind, and they're working out just fine.

Interestingly, one of the reasons I chose Bjj over MMA was the belt system.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 10, 2014)

Zero said:


> I'm trying to work this out.  So not giving kids exam marks is the same as taking away belt ranks?
> 
> How many dojos are you aware of that don't operate on some form of hierarchy interconnected with rank? Am yet to come across a school run by something akin to a white belt (although technically speaking, while it may not be the most successful, there is probably no hurdle in certain styles for a white-belt to own a school...)
> 
> It didn't come from you I take it but for me the idea of equating belts/ranks to that of military medals chaffs somewhat.


The Aikido dojo I go to everyone wears a white belt


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## ballen0351 (Dec 10, 2014)

I know that's not what you ment but it was funny when I read that because my teachers had a white belt on for like 40 years


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## Zero (Dec 11, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I know that's not what you ment but it was funny when I read that because my teachers had a white belt on for like 40 years


He must be really gutted, but he can keep trying, some things just take time!


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## Zero (Dec 11, 2014)

The whole belt thing is not something one should hopefully even get that wound up about.  I was told when I started in goju ryu that back in the day they didn't even train at the dojo in Gis but instead turned up and rock n rolled in their work clothes and that the whole belt concept only followed on much later (...only what I was told, I haven't really looked into that historically).  There must be some truth in that as I am sure I recall seeing old plate photos, or maybe it was drawings, of the old guard and they were not wearing belts of Gis.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 12, 2014)

Zero said:


> I'm trying to work this out.  So not giving kids exam marks is the same as taking away belt ranks?
> 
> How many dojos are you aware of that don't operate on some form of hierarchy interconnected with rank? Am yet to come across a school run by something akin to a white belt (although technically speaking, while it may not be the most successful, there is probably no hurdle in certain styles for a white-belt to own a school...)
> 
> It didn't come from you I take it but for me the idea of equating belts/ranks to that of military medals chaffs somewhat.



As other posters have said, some styles and some places don't use rank. Every place has a hierarchy of course but that hierarchy can be instructor/student and nothing more. The instructor leads the class, the students follow, and that's the hierarchy. It wasn't me who equated martial arts rank with military medals, it was somebody else on the forms although I don't remember who. If you ask me, medals and trophies that you might win at martial arts tournaments would be a better thing to equate to military medals. Martial arts rank would be better equated to military rank but that is not the best comparison either because the military always uses rank and has to and the martial arts doesn't always use rank and doesn't always have to. So I think that a better comparison for martial arts rank would be letter grades in school.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 12, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I know that's not what you ment but it was funny when I read that because my teachers had a white belt on for like 40 years


Maybe they were in a style that didn't use rank and the white belt was simply part of the uniform and had nothing to do with rank. There's some chinese styles where you wear a uniform with a red belt. You go in with a red belt and you go out with a red belt and neither your belt nor anything else with your uniform changes due to rank because they don't use rank.


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## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> If you ask me, medals and trophies that you might win at martial arts tournaments would be a better thing to equate to military medals.



Well, no. Military medals, at least in our Armed Forces are given for specific reasons, long service, bravery and campaigns. They aren't competed for and they aren't given for minor things.


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## Carol (Dec 12, 2014)

There is a hierarchy even in schools without rank.  I have trained in locations that did not have belt ranks or even a formal uniform code.  Yet there was still no doubt who the instructors were, and who the more senior students were.    For that matter, once we were on the mat, I don't think any of us had any trouble determining where another person's skill level was in relation to our own.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Maybe they were in a style that didn't use rank and the white belt was simply part of the uniform and had nothing to do with rank. There's some chinese styles where you wear a uniform with a red belt. You go in with a red belt and you go out with a red belt and neither your belt nor anything else with your uniform changes due to rank because they don't use rank.


Ya think


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## Chris Parker (Dec 13, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Maybe they were in a style that didn't use rank and the white belt was simply part of the uniform and had nothing to do with rank.



Very true. The thing to remember about the idea of coloured belts is that it's a very modern thing… stemming from Kano's introduction/application of the kyu-dan ranking system (taken from the game Go) in the late 19th/early 20th Century, and adopted by many others after that. 

Many of the older Japanese systems continue to not have any similar ranking, using menkyo (licences) instead… with no external indication as to the rank itself, in many cases. Then you have some systems who date their methods back to the usage of armour… and, traditionally, the belt worn with Japanese armour was always white… as a result, some of these systems use a white belt throughout their training, with no connection to rank at all, as it represents the belt worn in armour.



Hanzou said:


> There's quite a few MAs out there that don't have rank at all. Boxing and MMA immediately come to mind, and they're working out just fine.
> 
> Interestingly, one of the reasons I chose Bjj over MMA was the belt system.



This intrigues me… I train a number of systems, some of which have ranking with external indication (belts), others have ranking with no external indication (or, at least, not overtly noticeable… and not definitively used, either), and others with no ranking. The ranking hasn't been a part of my decision making at any point, as I never really thought about it as a factor… I'm interested as to what it was about the belt ranking that attracted you? I can think of a few reasons, but am curious to understand yours.


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## DennisBreene (Dec 13, 2014)

The belt I tend to notice is the tattered grey belt.  To me it denotes someone who has been active for many years.  Individual abilities and school criteria aside,  such dedication to training over the years is worthy of respect.


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## Hanzou (Dec 13, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> This intrigues me… I train a number of systems, some of which have ranking with external indication (belts), others have ranking with no external indication (or, at least, not overtly noticeable… and not definitively used, either), and others with no ranking. The ranking hasn't been a part of my decision making at any point, as I never really thought about it as a factor… I'm interested as to what it was about the belt ranking that attracted you? I can think of a few reasons, but am curious to understand yours.



I simply prefer it. Every martial art I've done since I was a child has utilized the belt system and the gi/kimono, so I'm simply more comfortable with it. So I probably shouldn't say its just the belt, its the entire aesthetic of the gi and belt that attracts me. It's also probably one of the reasons I never practiced a Chinese martial art.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 13, 2014)

Cool, thanks for that… I was wondering if it was because it gives specific goals to strive for. That all makes sense (the familiarity). Thanks for answering.


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## Danny T (Dec 13, 2014)

DennisBreene said:


> The belt I tend to notice is the tattered grey belt.  To me it denotes someone who has been active for many years.  Individual abilities and school criteria aside,  such dedication to training over the years is worthy of respect.


Gives me pause for thought. I've never look at it in that manner at all. Does the person who wears their belt in that manner also wear their other clothing, [uniform], the same; worn and tattered? What about the equipment they train with? I understand the comfort and something being a favorite but (and this is no slight on anyone we are all different) I have the belts that are most important to me displayed in my office for me. I have replaced my uniform belt several times over the years due to being worn. I require my students to wear a clean, in good condition and proper uniform. Their belt is a part of their uniform as well as is mine. As the leader in the school I will adhere to the same requirements of the school. The belt is but a sign of rank, with in the school and organization it was earned in. To me, and again I not slighting anyone, when I see one's worn and tattered belt the first thought I have is that person is making a statement of 'look at me, see I've been training a long time.' 
Train your mind, body, and spirit. Let your skills and abilities show through your actual presentation on the floor or mats. Not through your clothes. For many years we had no belts in my school. When on the training floor it was obvious to all which individuals had been active for many years and what respect was deemed.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 13, 2014)

Danny T  I respect your thoughts on old belts and cloths.  Now my belt is well over 25 years old , it is worn but clean, my usual uniform is new but I do on occasion wear an old (30+ years) one if I know the action is going to get heavy and nasty. This uniform is worn,patched. and sewn in many places but If I have to enter certain situation I just like that uniform because it is what I wore back in the day when nasty fighting took place and training was much harder.
Heck most of my street clothing is well over ten years old I don't buy new stuff unless I need to. Hell I'm poor and can't afford to buy things unless I need them.
As to making a statement yes and no if I put on that old uniform it is a statement that play time is over and stuff is going to get serious. The belt is just because I don't feel like breaking in a new one.
I do see your thoughts on the subject and they are good ones. I actually never thought much about the subject of the wear on the belt as long as I kept it clean and not fully falling apart.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 14, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I know that's not what you ment but it was funny when I read that because my teachers had a white belt on for like 40 years


Maybe he kept it clean so that it didn't darken with dirt, blood and sweat soaking into it.


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## donald1 (Dec 14, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Maybe he kept it clean so that it didn't darken with dirt, blood and sweat soaking into it.


wax on wax off isnt just for cars ya know


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 15, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> There's quite a few MAs out there that don't have rank at all. Boxing and MMA immediately come to mind, and they're working out just fine.
> 
> Interestingly, one of the reasons I chose Bjj over MMA was the belt system.


Some boxing gyms do have rank that is in the color of the gloves that a boxer wears. Golden gloves is the highest.


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## Reeksta (Dec 15, 2014)

One of the biggest regrets of my time studying judo is that I became obsessed with chasing belts instead of learning at a pace which was right for me and enjoying what I was being taught. Being honest this attitude killed my enjoyment of the art and once I got my 1st dan I practically stopped training there and then. I was burned out and having that black belt didn't feel nearly as good as I thought it would.
Something I love about what I train in now (freestyle wrestling) is that there's no grading structure. People rate you for what you can do on the mat, the knowledge you can share with the group . . . and that's it. It seems to create a much more honest and inclusive atmosphere too.
Not saying that everyone who studies in a system which uses the belt structure fall prey to the same mistakes I did. I've met many who haven't. For me personally though, a beltless life is the way to go.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 16, 2014)

Reeksta said:


> One of the biggest regrets of my time studying judo is that I became obsessed with chasing belts instead of learning at a pace which was right for me and enjoying what I was being taught. Being honest this attitude killed my enjoyment of the art and once I got my 1st dan I practically stopped training there and then. I was burned out and having that black belt didn't feel nearly as good as I thought it would.
> Something I love about what I train in now (freestyle wrestling) is that there's no grading structure. People rate you for what you can do on the mat, the knowledge you can share with the group . . . and that's it. It seems to create a much more honest and inclusive atmosphere too.
> Not saying that everyone who studies in a system which uses the belt structure fall prey to the same mistakes I did. I've met many who haven't. For me personally though, a beltless life is the way to go.



I think people can sometimes become too obsessed with belts but there is nothing wrong with at least wanting to make it to 1st dan. Maybe you shouldnt've stopped after making 1st dan, maybe you should've kept with it and focused on just getting better in general without chasing belts. I've known people who might get to a certain belt such as brown and then they'll stop pursuing belts, they will keep coming to class and keep training and keep wanting to get better but they won't care to advance in belts anymore. That's how I am with 1st degree black belt. But like I said, maybe you should've stayed with Judo. After you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. Now its time to learn the "real stuff" and for the real training to begin is what lots of martial artists will say about when you make black belt.


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## Reeksta (Dec 16, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I think people can sometimes become too obsessed with belts but there is nothing wrong with at least wanting to make it to 1st dan. Maybe you shouldnt've stopped after making 1st dan, maybe you should've kept with it and focused on just getting better in general without chasing belts. I've known people who might get to a certain belt such as brown and then they'll stop pursuing belts, they will keep coming to class and keep training and keep wanting to get better but they won't care to advance in belts anymore. That's how I am with 1st degree black belt. But like I said, maybe you should've stayed with Judo. After you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. Now its time to learn the "real stuff" and for the real training to begin is what lots of martial artists will say about when you make black belt.


To be honest, by the time I reached 1st dan the IJF had managed to turn judo into something I didn't enjoy training any more. No offense to anyone who continues to practice it, but judo with it's current ruleset isn't something that appeals to me. Hence why I made the move to freestyle in the first place and it's a decision I'm very happy with. If anything I believe I should have made the move earlier but, as I say, I was seduced by the idea of getting that black belt


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## donald1 (Dec 16, 2014)

its okay to want a black belt. heck i got a purple belt in goju and kobudo(2 purple belts) would sure like one of those to be black belt! but regardless it is not my main concern i am in those styles to train and get better, not wear belts. as long as you focus on priorities (earning a black belt fosnt count as one)if you want a black belt good for you but remember training and improving comes first


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 16, 2014)

donald1 said:


> its okay to want a black belt. heck i got a purple belt in goju and kobudo(2 purple belts) would sure like one of those to be black belt! but regardless it is not my main concern i am in those styles to train and get better, not wear belts. as long as you focus on priorities (earning a black belt fosnt count as one)if you want a black belt good for you but remember training and improving comes first



Of course training and improving comes first. If you go to a place where you would actually have to earn a black belt, not have it handed or sold to you, you wouldn't get a black belt if you don't train hard and if you don't improve yourself up to that level.


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## Balrog (Dec 18, 2014)

My $0.02 worth.....

The journey from White Belt through whatever series of colored belts your style uses to 1st Degree Black Belt is very much like the journey from 1st grade to 12th grade.  Making 1st Degree means you just graduated from high school and it's time to go to college and get some serious studying done.

I respect anyone who does that.  Put them on a pedestal, not so much.  Now....the guys teaching them who have been doing it for forty-lebbun years and who have probably forgotten more that I will ever know....somewhat different story.  The deserve some pedestal time.


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## Shai Hulud (Dec 19, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Depends on the art really...
> 
> In Bjj it can take over a decade to reach a black belt, and you're fully expected to be able to demonstrate the skill of your rank constantly.  Needless to say, black belts in Bjj are put on a pedestal, and its well deserved.


From a Confucian standpoint perhaps, in the sense that a black belt holder should conduct himself in the manner socially entrusted to him by the immediate community around him, but even then black's just a color signifying that you have the fundamentals of that style down and you're solid with the basics. 

And that's what I believe you ought to put on a pedestal - actual skill, as opposed to social stature (in this case a belt). If you've been working at an art for a while, I honestly believe that you should be valuing the actual combat performance over what color you happen to wear around your waist, or how many patches/stripes you have on your gear. Be proud of your ability to win matches, and make sure to walk that talk. Any tosser can go into a McDojo and come out with a black belt if he throws enough money at it, but only a committed martial artist/athlete/fighter will develop his or her skill to such a high caliber.


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## Buka (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some boxing gyms do have rank that is in the color of the gloves that a boxer wears. Golden gloves is the highest.



I'm not familiar with this. The only differing of gloves in boxing that I can think of is to delegate different corners in competition, sometimes.

I'm not doubting what you said, I just got to get out more.


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## Danny T (Dec 19, 2014)

Buka said:


> I'm not familiar with this. The only differing of gloves in boxing that I can think of is to delegate different corners in competition, sometimes.
> 
> I'm not doubting what you said, I just got to get out more.


Not familiar with the color of gloves as to ranking in boxing either.
Golden Gloves is a state, regional, and national amateur boxing competition held yearly in the U.S. There is also the Silver Gloves amateur boxing tournament for ages 10 to 15 years old. In the USA Boxing association there is not ranking by color of gloves. It may be a particular boxing gym or club that is doing it with their fighters.


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## Blindside (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some boxing gyms do have rank that is in the color of the gloves that a boxer wears. Golden gloves is the highest.


 
First I have heard of this, usually "Golden Gloves" refers to a set of amateur regional and national competitions:
Golden Gloves - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Can you give an example of a gym using these as "rank?"


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## jks9199 (Dec 19, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Not familiar with the color of gloves as to ranking in boxing either.
> Golden Gloves is a state, regional, and national amateur boxing competition held yearly in the U.S. There is also the Silver Gloves amateur boxing tournament for ages 10 to 15 years old. In the USA Boxing association there is not ranking by color of gloves. It may be a particular boxing gym or club that is doing it with their fighters.


I believe savate uses colored gear to differentiate skill levels, though I'm not 100% certain.


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> I believe savate uses colored gear to differentiate skill levels, though I'm not 100% certain.



I'm pretty sure they do, I've never heard of boxing using different gloves though as I've never heard of them having rankings similar to anything in martial arts.


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## Zero (Dec 19, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> I believe savate uses colored gear to differentiate skill levels, though I'm not 100% certain.



Also, the better you get, the tighter the spandex body suit you get to wear, culminating with the off-lemon mankini with matching gloves.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2014)

Shai Hulud said:


> From a Confucian standpoint perhaps, in the sense that a black belt holder should conduct himself in the manner socially entrusted to him by the immediate community around him, but even then black's just a color signifying that you have the fundamentals of that style down and you're solid with the basics.
> 
> And that's what I believe you ought to put on a pedestal - actual skill, as opposed to social stature (in this case a belt). If you've been working at an art for a while, I honestly believe that you should be valuing the actual combat performance over what color you happen to wear around your waist, or how many patches/stripes you have on your gear. Be proud of your ability to win matches, and make sure to walk that talk. Any tosser can go into a McDojo and come out with a black belt if he throws enough money at it, but only a committed martial artist/athlete/fighter will develop his or her skill to such a high caliber.



Well, a black belt in Bjj is a BB because of their skill, unless they go to a fraudulent Bjj school. In Bjj you're promoted based on your mat time and other things. So you're not getting that black belt until you're ready, and your readiness is completely dependent on your instructor, and probably your instructor's instructor. I've heard of people getting denied black belts for all sorts of reasons. Getting a black belt in Bjj is a pretty big deal, since many Bjj schools are judged by the quality of their black belts. And like I said earlier, you don't want to be the Bjj school or affiliation that's producing soft black belts.

As Tony said, there's some guys who are stuck at brown belt for years before they're promoted. Just the nature of the style.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2014)

Zero said:


> Also, the better you get, the tighter the spandex body suit you get to wear, culminating with the off-lemon mankini with matching gloves.




You aren't far out! Equipment London Savate

I also liked on one of the other pages where it said 'will it hurt' meaning the boxing, the answer was no......


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2014)

Well, I don't see why a dojo would allow students to test or ask to test for all the lower belts but then they have to wait until they're told by their sensei that they can test for black belt. As some people have pointed out, at their dojo you're told when you can test for every belt, not just black but every belt. That would make sense but I don't see why it would be just the black belt test that a student has to be told they can test. If a student does have to be told when they can test than I would think it would apply to all the belts, not just black. If a student signs up or asks to sign up for tests I would think it would apply to all the belts including black.


----------



## Blindside (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well, I don't see why a dojo would allow students to test or ask to test for all the lower belts but then they have to wait until they're told by their sensei that they can test for black belt. As some people have pointed out, at their dojo you're told when you can test for every belt, not just black but every belt. That would make sense but I don't see why it would be just the black belt test that a student has to be told they can test. If a student does have to be told when they can test than I would think it would apply to all the belts, not just black. If a student signs up or asks to sign up for tests I would think it would apply to all the belts including black.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2014)

Blindside said:


>



Where's the 'thank you' and the 'I love it' button when you need it!!!!

(Did you know that every single girl in the UK loves and knows the words to that song and will sing it at the drop of a hat!)


----------



## K-man (Dec 19, 2014)

Buka said:


> I'm not familiar with this. The only differing of gloves in boxing that I can think of is to delegate different corners in competition, sometimes.
> 
> I'm not doubting what you said, I just got to get out more.


When I was boxing there were only black gloves. I didn't realise we were all that good.


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## Blindside (Dec 19, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Where's the 'thank you' and the 'I love it' button when you need it!!!!
> 
> (Did you know that every single girl in the UK loves and knows the words to that song and will sing it at the drop of a hat!)


 
Girls?  My eight year old boy can do the entire soundtrack and my 2.5 year old boy has pretty much has "Let it Go" down pat.  Mind you outside of that song he is pretty much limited to four and five word sentances.


----------



## donald1 (Dec 19, 2014)

Blindside said:


>


my younger 11yr old sister sings it often

(thank goodness i have my own place!)


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2014)

Blindside said:


> Girls?  My eight year old boy can do the entire soundtrack and my 2.5 year old boy has pretty much has "Let it Go" down pat.  Mind you outside of that song he is pretty much limited to four and five word sentances.




I tend these days as a Girl Guide leader to only see girls lol.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2014)

I still to this day have never listened to that song and have no plans to


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I still to this day have never listened to that song and have no plans to



It's pretty awesome when a hundred girls or so burst into singing it spontaneously, I think the words resonate with them.


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## Blindside (Dec 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I still to this day have never listened to that song and have no plans to


 
Hit play, you know you want to....

Actually the song is fine, listening to it again and again and again and again is the issue.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 19, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> I believe savate uses colored gear to differentiate skill levels, though I'm not 100% certain.


Yes Savate does. But then that is Savate not Boxing. 
And, their tights do seem to be sized a bit smaller than even wrestling singlets.


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## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Yes Savate does. But then that is Savate not Boxing.
> And, their tights do seem to be sized a bit smaller than even wrestling singlets.




to be fair though it is known as Savate, Boxe Français which may account for an awful lot.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2014)

Blindside said:


> Hit play, you know you want to....
> 
> Actually the song is fine, listening to it again and again and again and again is the issue.


No no no no no. I must not push play


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> No no no no no. I must not push play




Actually it's not a bad song, I think the girls see something in the words which as I said resonates with them, it's certainly quite a powerful message in there about being your own person and I do think it also fits with the thread....the OP really should let it go now, there's a point when it's gone round and round and now it's pretty much a barren thread.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 19, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> to be fair though it is known as Savate, Boxe Français which may account for an awful lot.


This is true Tez. But then isn't the Thai boxing art called Muay Thai which means Thai Boxing? Wing Chun is also known as Chinese Boxing. But we don't consider either as Boxing when speaking of boxing or do you? You maybe correct I at this point can only assume some do and I really dislike assuming.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2014)

Danny T said:


> This is true Tez. But then isn't the Thai boxing art called Muay Thai which means Thai Boxing? Wing Chun is also known as Chinese Boxing. But we don't consider either as Boxing when speaking of boxing or do you? You maybe correct I at this point can only assume some do and I really dislike assuming.




To be honest I wasn't thinking of the actual boxing when I commented more that if any countries boxer were going to wear lycra it would be the French! sorry!


----------



## Danny T (Dec 19, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> To be honest I wasn't thinking of the actual boxing when I commented more that if any countries boxer were going to wear lycra it would be the French! sorry!


 Agreed, all good.
I believe PhotonGuys post on boxing using colored gloves was about Boxing but then I may have misread.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Agreed, all good.
> I believe PhotonGuys post on boxing using colored gloves was about Boxing but then I may have misread.


Yes it was about boxing. Some boxing schools do use a ranking system of some sort from what I know where golden gloves is the highest rank. I don't know if fighters wear certain colored gloves depending on their rank though, golden gloves might simply be a title where the fighter doesn't literally wear golden gloves.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2014)

Blindside said:


>


Great song. Great video. But what does it have to do with the discussion at hand?


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes it was about boxing. Some boxing schools do use a ranking system of some sort from what I know where golden gloves is the highest rank. I don't know if fighters wear certain colored gloves depending on their rank though, golden gloves might simply be a title where the fighter doesn't literally wear golden gloves.


Are you talking about a golden gloves boxer?  Its not a rank like a belt
Official Golden Gloves of America Website


----------



## Buka (Dec 19, 2014)

That's a relief. I was trying to picture a shiny golden color pair of 12 oz boxing gloves in some of the boxing gyms I've been to. I'm thinking, "that would have to be one quick/tough mother ff'r.....with real good insurance."  

This was meant to follow post #138. I just type slow.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Great song. Great video. But what does it have to do with the discussion at hand?


It means your obsessed with the black belt and you need to just let it go


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> It means your obsessed with the black belt and you need to just let it go


Sure I will, once I get some answers. When Im obsessed with something, I don't move on until I get it resolved. For instance, why would a dojo allow students to sign up for belt tests for other belts but not be allowed to sign up for the black belt test until they're told?

Or for that matter, why would a sensei make it much harder to go from brown to black (assuming brown is the belt right before black) than it is to go up other belts?

If anything, its senseis who have systems like that who are obsessed with the black belt and that is what I mean by "putting the black belt on a pedestal."


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure I will, once I get some answers. For instance, why would a dojo allow students to sign up for belt tests for other belts but not be allowed to sign up for the black belt test until they're told?
> 
> Or for that matter, why would a sensei make it much harder to go from brown to black (assuming brown is the belt right before black) than it is to go up other belts?
> 
> If anything, its senseis who have systems like that who are obsessed with the black belt and that is what I mean by "putting the black belt on a pedestal."


You got your answers pages and pages and pages and topic after topic worth of answers.  Go ask YOUR sensei these questions since every school is different


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> You got your answers pages and pages and pages and topic after topic worth of answers.  Go ask YOUR sensei these questions since every school is different


I see, so what you're saying is that every sensei runs their dojo a certain way and they've got reasons for doing it so why a sensei might require students to wait until they're told they can take the black belt test but sign up for other belt tests or why they might make the black belt test much harder than the brown belt test is that it would depend on the sensei why they do it like that.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see, so what you're saying is that every sensei runs their dojo a certain way and they've got reasons for doing it


Yes thats it, thats why.  The End


----------



## K-man (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure I will, once I get some answers. When Im obsessed with something, I don't move on until I get it resolved. For instance, why would a dojo allow students to sign up for belt tests for other belts but not be allowed to sign up for the black belt test until they're told?
> 
> Or for that matter, why would a sensei make it much harder to go from brown to black (assuming brown is the belt right before black) than it is to go up other belts?
> 
> If anything, its senseis who have systems like that who are obsessed with the black belt and that is what I mean by "putting the black belt on a pedestal."


I think you may have missed the point that not all schools do it the way you described it. In Okinawan Goju for example the black belt test is very simple and not a test beyond showing a basic understanding. The fact that you have progressed to that level is part of your grading. To me there is little difference between 1st Kyu, Shodan Ho, and Shodan.

It is nice to have a black belt because to me it does demonstrate the level you have reached within your own style or organisation and that is all it means. But if you reach a black belt in one organisation and then claim it is worth a third dan in another organisation then you're just blowing smoke up your ****!


----------



## K-man (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see, so what you're saying is that every sensei runs their dojo a certain way and they've got reasons for doing it so why a sensei might require students to wait until they're told they can take the black belt test but sign up for other belt tests or why they might make the black belt test much harder than the brown belt test is that it would depend on the sensei why they do it like that.


And that's a yes from me too!


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes it was about boxing. Some boxing schools do use a ranking system of some sort from what I know where golden gloves is the highest rank. I don't know if fighters wear certain colored gloves depending on their rank though, golden gloves might simply be a title where the fighter doesn't literally wear golden gloves.


You're making a pretty big claim there.  Mostly, boxing gloves come in black, red, blue, and white.  Some brown, and I know there are some pink lines out now.  Hard to assemble much of a ranking system that way.  And why would you?  It'd get expensive pretty quick, buying new gloves every advancement.  As others have said, the Golden Gloves are the top amateur competitions -- not a club based ranking.  None of us have ever heard of a ranking system like that in boxing.  Sure, fighters are "ranked" as in who's better than whom, based on records, mostly, and fighting reputation a little.  But that's not a "you're a white glove fighter until this happens..." There are also some kickboxing schools with ranking systems that they've developed -- but those are typically belts, like in martial arts.

So... can you provide any support for the idea that there is a boxing club out there with ranking like that?


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2014)

Buka said:


> This was meant to follow post #138. I just type slow.


Its ok we still love you


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## Blindside (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes it was about boxing. Some boxing schools do use a ranking system of some sort from what I know where golden gloves is the highest rank. I don't know if fighters wear certain colored gloves depending on their rank though, golden gloves might simply be a title where the fighter doesn't literally wear golden gloves.


 
Name one.  As in, provide the name of one boxing school that uses a ranking structure that has a Golden Glove or any other color glove as a top level rank.


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## Blindside (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure I will, once I get some answers. When Im obsessed with something, I don't move on until I get it resolved. For instance, why would a dojo allow students to sign up for belt tests for other belts but not be allowed to sign up for the black belt test until they're told?
> 
> Or for that matter, why would a sensei make it much harder to go from brown to black (assuming brown is the belt right before black) than it is to go up other belts?
> 
> If anything, its senseis who have systems like that who are obsessed with the black belt and that is what I mean by "putting the black belt on a pedestal."


 
Get your answers from your instructor, stop asking the same question again and again and again here.  Remember when I said that "Let It Go" is a fine song but it is annoying to hear repetitively?  The same holds true of your harping on this topic.  Ask your instructor, get resolution, move on with your life.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Great song. Great video. But what does it have to do with the discussion at hand?



It's advice. Good advice. Advice you've been given many times before. 
I think the hope was that maybe THIS time you'd get it. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Buka (Dec 19, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure I will, once I get some answers. When Im obsessed with something, I don't move on until I get it resolved. For instance, why would a dojo allow students to sign up for belt tests for other belts but not be allowed to sign up for the black belt test until they're told?
> 
> Or for that matter, why would a sensei make it much harder to go from brown to black (assuming brown is the belt right before black) than it is to go up other belts?
> 
> If anything, its senseis who have systems like that who are obsessed with the black belt and that is what I mean by "putting the black belt on a pedestal."



The best part of all this - you are going to earn your black belt. I'd bet my last buck on it. You're stubborn. Stubborn is a good thing, a damn good thing actually, while on your quest to make rank. You need stubborn, you need balls, you need patience.

You got the stubborn, if you got the other two, you're golden, bro. Be nice to see where it goes from there.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 19, 2014)

Blindside said:


> Get your answers from your instructor, stop asking the same question again and again and again here.  Remember when I said that "Let It Go" is a fine song but it is annoying to hear repetitively?  The same holds true of your harping on this topic.  Ask your instructor, get resolution, move on with your life.



When somebody says to "Let It Go" what that sounds like is, if you got an issue speak your mind. Open your mouth and use it. Let It Go, another words is synonymous with Let It Out. Say what you got to say and get people to listen to you. Don't hold it in. As a matter of fact, let it go sounds like the opposite of hold it in.


----------



## Chris Parker (Dec 20, 2014)

No. That is quite frankly the opposite of what "Let it go" means… it is absolutely not synonymous with "let it out"… it means "drop it and move on". 

Okay?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> When somebody says to "Let It Go" what that sounds like is, if you got an issue speak your mind. Open your mouth and use it. Let It Go, another words is synonymous with Let It Out. Say what you got to say and get people to listen to you. Don't hold it in. As a matter of fact, let it go sounds like the opposite of hold it in.



You've never given us any reason to think that English is not your native language, so I really have no idea how you can possibly be this wrong.

It means "Get over it. Drop it and move on. " It absolutely does not, by any rational stretch of the imagination, mean "tell us the same thing yet again".


----------



## tshadowchaser (Dec 20, 2014)

why do I feel I'm listening to a broken record or that my tape recorder is broken and keeps repeating itself


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> You're making a pretty big claim there.  Mostly, boxing gloves come in black, red, blue, and white.  Some brown, and I know there are some pink lines out now.  Hard to assemble much of a ranking system that way.  And why would you?  It'd get expensive pretty quick, buying new gloves every advancement.  As others have said, the Golden Gloves are the top amateur competitions -- not a club based ranking.  None of us have ever heard of a ranking system like that in boxing.  Sure, fighters are "ranked" as in who's better than whom, based on records, mostly, and fighting reputation a little.  But that's not a "you're a white glove fighter until this happens..." There are also some kickboxing schools with ranking systems that they've developed -- but those are typically belts, like in martial arts.
> 
> So... can you provide any support for the idea that there is a boxing club out there with ranking like that?



I briefly took boxing years ago and at the gym where I trained they talked about Golden Gloves as a certain top level of competition. I never did compete in boxing and thinking back I believe Golden Gloves was only a title, not actual literal gloves that were golden in color. At the gym everybody used red gloves. At the time I might've mistaken it for actual gloves but now I believe it was just a level of competition.

I do know that Savate, a French form of kickboxing does have a level called Silver Gloves, but Im not sure if that's just a title, level of competition, or if it involves actual silver colored gloves.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> You've never given us any reason to think that English is not your native language, so I really have no idea how you can possibly be this wrong.
> 
> It means "Get over it. Drop it and move on. " It absolutely does not, by any rational stretch of the imagination, mean "tell us the same thing yet again".



You know something Dirty Dog, I've learned to not let what you post here get to me. I really shouldn't care what you post so instead of letting what you say get on my nerves, I am just going to let it roll off like water off a duck's back. You don't take what I say seriously? Well I don't take what you say seriously either.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> why do I feel I'm listening to a broken record or that my tape recorder is broken and keeps repeating itself



Patience tshadowchaser patience.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 20, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> why do I feel I'm listening to a broken record or that my tape recorder is broken and keeps repeating itself


Whats the definition of insanity


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> No. That is quite frankly the opposite of what "Let it go" means… it is absolutely not synonymous with "let it out"… it means "drop it and move on".
> 
> Okay?



Very well, than I stand corrected.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2014)

K-man said:


> I think you may have missed the point that not all schools do it the way you described it. In Okinawan Goju for example the black belt test is very simple and not a test beyond showing a basic understanding. The fact that you have progressed to that level is part of your grading. To me there is little difference between 1st Kyu, Shodan Ho, and Shodan.
> 
> It is nice to have a black belt because to me it does demonstrate the level you have reached within your own style or organisation and that is all it means. But if you reach a black belt in one organisation and then claim it is worth a third dan in another organisation then you're just blowing smoke up your ****!



So another words, in Okinawan Goju the black belt is more or less sequential. Much like history classes in school, in high school and college you might take a series of history classes, History I on your first semester and then after that History II and then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily harder than History III, II, or I its just sequential and taken on the fourth and final semester for the history classes and it might build on the previous History classes in that it covers a period that comes after them on the timeline and that's why its called History IV.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 20, 2014)

No


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Very well, than I stand corrected.


 
Does that mean you're *finally* going to drop it and move on?


----------



## K-man (Dec 20, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> So another words, in Okinawan Goju the black belt is more or less sequential. Much like history classes in school, in high school and college you might take a series of history classes, History I on your first semester and then after that History II and then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily harder than History III, II, or I its just sequential and taken on the fourth and final semester for the history classes and it might build on the previous History classes in that it covers a period that comes after them on the timeline and that's why its called History IV.


More like you have a syllabus. History 1 takes you to yellow belt then you add History 2 but still studying History 1. That gives you your green belt. Then you start on History 3, still studying History 1 and 2 and maybe even teaching a bit of History 1. That gives you your brown belt. Next you start on History 4, still studying History 1, 2 and 3, plus teaching some or all of those. That takes you to black belt where you realise that History 1 to 4 has barely taken you past the Neanderthal period and learning the rest of the history of mankind lies before you.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 21, 2014)

K-man said:


> More like you have a syllabus. History 1 takes you to yellow belt then you add History 2 but still studying History 1. That gives you your green belt. Then you start on History 3, still studying History 1 and 2 and maybe even teaching a bit of History 1. That gives you your brown belt. Next you start on History 4, still studying History 1, 2 and 3, plus teaching some or all of those. That takes you to black belt where you realise that History 1 to 4 has barely taken you past the Neanderthal period and learning the rest of the history of mankind lies before you.


I see, so its more like math than history in that math builds on itself. More advanced math uses stuff you learn in basic math. Even the most advanced math uses the very basics such as addition and subtraction.


----------



## K-man (Dec 21, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see, so its more like math than history in that math builds on itself. More advanced math uses stuff you learn in basic math. Even the most advanced math uses the very basics such as addition and subtraction.


I think you are on the right track. Good analogy.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've seen black belts on pedestals after tournaments, but that's really it...



Just so you know Im not talking about a physical pedestal. When I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal what I mean is making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other, earlier belts.


----------



## geezer (Oct 16, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Just so you know Im not talking about a physical pedestal. When I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal what I mean is making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other, earlier belts.



Yeah, it should be a challenge, but not outrageously hard. Otherwise forger the "pedestal" and put the black belt on top of this:







BTW that's K2, one mother of a mountain, eh?

...and please take everything I say with a grain or salt. They don't even have belts in the MA I practice.


----------



## Hyoho (Oct 16, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan. Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man." So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.


Just noticed this old thread. Actually there is very little difference between ikkyu and shodan in Japan. Ikkyu is an unqualified beginner. Some arts do pre grading test to make sure you are not wasting anybodies time. You enter a dojo, sit nearest the door. Highest dan grade foreman sits at the other end and the teacher is the other side well away from the door. Specific dojo are built this way. It means an attacker come to you first. The teacher is last but of course that doesn't happen any more. You spend many years fighting most fighting with your own problems. The eventually you end up on the the other side (sensei). It's then that you wish you were that guy next to the door! Personally I have low opinion of dan grades as they are awarded by the association. I gave up on them at 42 to concentrate on classical arts. but that's just my path. At one time I considered burning all my certification as it's just paper that hangs around. But I was persuaded to keep it for posterity. Regardless of grade Budo is a lifetimes work we should love or leave.


----------



## donald1 (Oct 16, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Just noticed this old thread. Actually there is very little difference between ikkyu and shodan in Japan. Ikkyu is an unqualified beginner. Some arts do pre grading test to make sure you are not wasting anybodies time. You enter a dojo, sit nearest the door. Highest dan grade foreman sits at the other end and the teacher is the other side well away from the door. Specific dojo are built this way. It means an attacker come to you first. The teacher is last but of course that doesn't happen any more. You spend many years fighting most fighting with your own problems. The eventually you end up on the the other side (sensei). It's then that you wish you were that guy next to the door! Personally I have low opinion of dan grades as they are awarded by the association. I gave up on them at 42 to concentrate on classical arts. but that's just my path. At one time I considered burning all my certification as it's just paper that hangs around. But I was persuaded to keep it for posterity. Regardless of grade Budo is a lifetimes work we should love or leave.


Umm.. im unfamiliar with the term ikkyu, is that the same as kyu or something different?


----------



## kuniggety (Oct 16, 2015)

donald1 said:


> Umm.. im unfamiliar with the term ikkyu, is that the same as kyu or something different?



Ichi (one) + kyu conjugates into ikkyu


----------



## Chris Parker (Oct 18, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Just so you know Im not talking about a physical pedestal. When I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal what I mean is making it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other, earlier belts.



Uh… you do realise that you're replying to an answer from a year ago… on the first page of this 9 page thread… that was largely tongue-in-cheek in the first place? Yeah? And that, as per much of the rest of the thread, that's not what "to place on a pedestal" actually means?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see why you felt the need to clarify your incorrect grasp of the idiom you're attempting to use some 11 months after the fact…


----------



## PhotonGuy (Dec 30, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Uh… you do realise that you're replying to an answer from a year ago… on the first page of this 9 page thread… that was largely tongue-in-cheek in the first place? Yeah? And that, as per much of the rest of the thread, that's not what "to place on a pedestal" actually means?


So than what exactly does the expression "to place on a pedestal" mean? If I used the wrong expression than I stand corrected.



Chris Parker said:


> I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see why you felt the need to clarify your incorrect grasp of the idiom you're attempting to use some 11 months after the fact…



Because I sometimes bring stuff up from a long time ago. And actually 11 months isn't that long ago compared to how long ago some of the stuff I bring up is. Sometimes I bring stuff up from many years ago.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 30, 2015)

Ikkyu is the highest level brown belt. Kyu ranks count down, dan ranks count up.

Black belts are all yudansha, no matter what else they may be. They eat at the grownups table. More is expected from them and that they are expected to begin giving back, which increases overy time. A yudansha represents his or her dojo and sensei, and many will form their opinions of both based on what they see in the yudansha. Concepts like honor and duty become as important as technique and power, etc.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 30, 2015)

Place on a Pedestal


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## Buka (Dec 31, 2015)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Ikkyu is the highest level brown belt. Kyu ranks count down, dan ranks count up.
> 
> Black belts are all yudansha, no matter what else they may be. They eat at the grownups table. More is expected from them and that they are expected to begin giving back, which increases overy time. A yudansha represents his or her dojo and sensei, and many will form their opinions of both based on what they see in the yudansha. Concepts like honor and duty become as important as technique and power, etc.



Great post. Honor and duty. Love it

"They eat at the grownups table". What a great and funny line.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 2, 2016)

PhotonGuy said:


> So than what exactly does the expression "to place on a pedestal" mean? If I used the wrong expression than I stand corrected.



Yes, you used the wrong expression. Again.

"To place on a pedestal" refers to holding something in high esteem, despite not having any reason to do so. Such as thinking that the pretty girl who doesn't even know your name, and who you know virtually nothing about, is the paragon of virtue and sweetness, even if she simply isn't.



PhotonGuy said:


> Because I sometimes bring stuff up from a long time ago. And actually 11 months isn't that long ago compared to how long ago some of the stuff I bring up is. Sometimes I bring stuff up from many years ago.



Except that you'd been involved in the thread ever since that comment, which was on the first page… and you added absolutely nothing new to your argument at all. There was no reason for your added post.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Ikkyu is the highest level brown belt. Kyu ranks count down, dan ranks count up.



Yeah… I'm assuming you're meaning this as an indication of how things "change" at Dan grade, yeah? If so, cool way to think about it.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Black belts are all yudansha, no matter what else they may be.



Well, all Japanese art black belts potentially are… the term is pretty literally "Person who has a Dan grade" (有段者 - yu(u) - belonging to, dan - rank/level, sha - person). That said, in systems such as Robert Bussey's RBWI used different "ranking" for black belts… which didn't apply a "dan" term.



Bill Mattocks said:


> They eat at the grownups table. More is expected from them and that they are expected to begin giving back, which increases overy time.



Depending on the dojo, yeah… levels can change, of course.



Bill Mattocks said:


> A yudansha represents his or her dojo and sensei, and many will form their opinions of both based on what they see in the yudansha.



Again, yeah, there is that very real potential. Of course, as you said in your other thread, it's not only the yudansha, but also the mudansha who can be seen to represent the dojo… 



Bill Mattocks said:


> Concepts like honor and duty become as important as technique and power, etc.



Again, depends… a nice ideal, but not definite or universal.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2016)

All students represent their dojo to the outside world at large, yes. However, most skilled students and instructors of other schools pay closer attention to what the yudansha do.

I think the idea is that any dojo can have an occasional bad egg in the Kyu ranks. It happens. But making a rotten person or one with serious character defects a yudansha says something about that dojo and instructor. It's always possible to be fooled, and people sometimes change, but in general, making a yudansha is serious sober business not to be taken lightly.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2016)

With regard to ikkyu being the highest Kyu rank, I was responding to whomever said it was the lowest. Kyu ranks count backwards, down to one, so ikkyu is the highest Kyu rank. Then dan ranks start from one and go up to ten.

I don't know why this is, but it is. I have not heard of anyone becoming a jukyu and the next promotion being shodan.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 3, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> All students represent their dojo to the outside world at large, yes. However, most skilled students and instructors of other schools pay closer attention to what the yudansha do.



Hmm… honestly, I think it's more the inexperienced who look to the yudansha and instructors… personally, I watch the whole class… particularly the beginners… to see how the development occurs. I'm with you on the "all students represent their dojo", of course… I think it goes a fair bit beyond that, but that's another conversation.



Bill Mattocks said:


> I think the idea is that any dojo can have an occasional bad egg in the Kyu ranks. It happens. But making a rotten person or one with serious character defects a yudansha says something about that dojo and instructor. It's always possible to be fooled, and people sometimes change, but in general, making a yudansha is serious sober business not to be taken lightly.



Again, it can very much depend on the dojo… I've certainly known many "bad egg" yudansha, instructors, and more over my time… It has been observed (by myself and others) that martial arts can act more like a magnifier than a sieve… aspects of the personality are expanded and emphasised, rather than the more common ideal of the art/class acting as a sieve to "weed out" the "bad people". Sadly, that simply doesn't happen. They might not become a dan grade in one school, but the old like attracts like still works in this situation.



Bill Mattocks said:


> With regard to ikkyu being the highest Kyu rank, I was responding to whomever said it was the lowest. Kyu ranks count backwards, down to one, so ikkyu is the highest Kyu rank. Then dan ranks start from one and go up to ten.
> 
> I don't know why this is, but it is. I have not heard of anyone becoming a jukyu and the next promotion being shodan.


 
Yeah, I had no argument against what you said… it was more that I liked the way you said it (or, at least, the way I read it), with the idea of Kyu grades "counting down (towards black belt ranks, and ostensibly more serious training)", and Dan grades "counting up (in your progress of understanding, knowledge, and skill)".


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 4, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Just noticed this old thread. Actually there is very little difference between ikkyu and shodan in Japan.



In Japan yes, I believe that's the case. They see the first degree black belt as just another belt, its just the belt after brown and the belt before 2nd degree, nothing more. 

In the USA on the other hand they tend to make a big deal about the black belt and they often make it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up any of the other belts. At least that's what I've observed in this country. In regards to the black belt, that's the difference in Japan and the USA.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 21, 2016)

Rank is only ever of importance within the school it's applied/given in… looking for differences is an exercise in frustration and futility, as it frankly doesn't exist. And, more importantly, it doesn't matter.


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## geezer (Feb 21, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Rank is only ever of importance within the school it's applied/given in… looking for differences is an exercise in frustration and futility, as it frankly doesn't exist. And, more importantly,* it doesn't matter*.



I have to agree with you Chris, but on the other hand, what matters subjectively to any given individual is impossible to calculate. Clearly this matters a lot to _PhotonGuy! _


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## Chris Parker (Feb 26, 2016)

True, but my comments were in the context of PhotonGuy still trying to establish hard, fast connections and differences between different countries and cultures perceptions… despite being repeatedly informed that such things are superficial and largely meaningless outside of the school it's applied in. In a broader sense, though, yeah, agreed.


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