# Add-on TKD Hoshinsul and Hapkido



## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Is anyone aware of specific curriculum available for sale with further training available via seminars?  Someone I know is interested in adding a heavier SD component to his TKD school.

He's already aware of the "Combat Hapkido" option, and he's not necessarily concerned about style purity, ranks, etc.  He just wants to beef up his SD offerings within his school and will make a credible attempt to learn the material to an instructor level before teaching it himself to others. 

I'm fully aware the some will have negative opinions about so-called "add-on" hapkido.  I'm probably one of them.  Hope someone can help regardless.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> and will make a credible attempt to learn the material to an instructor level before teaching it himself to others.



That made me laugh out loud - thanx


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

You're welcome, I guess.  Anyone else have a serious answer?


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

How about a serious question then - If you are against it, why are you trying to propagate it? 



dancingalone said:


> I'm fully aware the some will have negative opinions about so-called "add-on" hapkido.  I'm probably one of them.  Hope someone can help regardless.



It's like saying "I'm against underage drinking but anyone know where I can score some fake IDs?"


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> How about a serious question then - If you are against it, why are you trying to propagate it?
> 
> 
> 
> It's like saying "I'm against underage drinking but anyone know where I can score some fake IDs?"



Start a new thread to discuss it if you want.  In the mean time, I'd appreciate it if you would quit bogging down my thread which was started for a specific purpose.  Mods?


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## dortiz (Jan 12, 2010)

He could join the Koryu Uchinadi and buy their two man sets and self defense modules.
They are good about exactly what you are describing. Adding to ones sytem or filling holes.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Start a new thread to discuss it if you want.  In the mean time, I'd appreciate it if you would quit bogging down my thread which was started for a specific purpose.  Mods?



No need to - I know where I stand. You seem conflicted though. Hope you work it out for yourself.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Is anyone aware of specific curriculum available for sale with further training available via seminars?  Someone I know is interested in adding a heavier SD component to his TKD school.
> 
> He's already aware of the "Combat Hapkido" option, and he's not necessarily concerned about style purity, ranks, etc.  He just wants to beef up his SD offerings within his school and will make a credible attempt to learn the material to an instructor level before teaching it himself to others.
> 
> I'm fully aware the some will have negative opinions about so-called "add-on" hapkido.  I'm probably one of them.  Hope someone can help regardless.


Does he have background in anything other than taekwondo?
What is his rank/level of experience in taekwondo and what style of taekwondo is he teaching?
What holes does he perceive in the SD component of his taekwondo class?
Is he primarily doing sport TKD?

I have been led to believe that there is a pretty hefty amount of grapples and locks in the ITF encyclopedia and there are likely to be instructional videos available that cover the material.  Additionally, it would be designed to segue with taekwondo already.  If he teaches Chang Hon TKD, this would likely be the best bet.

Generally, I am of the opinion that taekwondo should be taught as taekwondo.  I was involved in a hybrid TKD/Hapkido class before studying hapkido as a separate art and while the class was a quite good, it did substantially increase the quantity of material.  

Between sport sparring, forms, the core TKD curriculum and the additional hapkido add on, it was really too much material.  I felt that had he dropped the sport and all of the specialized training that went with it, it would have been a much better class.

If his school is a sport school that is very active in competition, I will be honest and say that training to be competitive in sport TKD is every bit as time consuming and challenging as learning the "traditional" art.  Especially WTF sport, which has become so incredibly specialized that I question whether or not it should even be called taekwondo.  For a heavier SD component to be effective for the students, they need to be trained and drilled in it intensely.  If there is no grappling or locks at all in his current curriculum, his students will all be essentially white belts with the material.  Unless he has the time in his schedule to drill them in it effectively, I question how much practical benefit his students will derive.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Does he have background in anything other than taekwondo?
> What is his rank/level of experience in taekwondo and what style of taekwondo is he teaching?



He's a 3rd dan in TKD.  Independent style, pretty much punch/kick stuff with some throws from judo thrown in.  He knows some rudimentary wrist and shoulder locks and does them well from the scenarios he has practiced. 



> I have been led to believe that there is a pretty hefty amount of grapples and locks in the ITF encyclopedia and there are likely to be instructional videos available that cover the material.  Additionally, it would be designed to segue with taekwondo already.  If he teaches Chang Hon TKD, this would likely be the best bet.



Although he uses the Chang Hon forms, he's certainly not ITF.  I didn't know the ITF sold videos that cover hoshinsul.  Are you familiar with their content?  Are they any 'good'?  



> Generally, I am of the opinion that taekwondo should be taught as taekwondo.  I was involved in a hybrid TKD/Hapkido class before studying hapkido as a separate art and while the class was a quite good, it did substantially increase the quantity of material.
> 
> Between sport sparring, forms, the core TKD curriculum and the additional hapkido add on, it was really too much material.  I felt that had he dropped the sport and all of the specialized training that went with it, it would have been a much better class.
> 
> Daniel



I generally agree, but I think there's an whole undefined range between taekwondo and hapkido.  Some of the old school taekwondo schools seem to work this material more as their masters were Koreans who might have learned what we call hapkido in their formative years.  It's this offering that my friend wants to beef up in his school.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> How about a serious question then - If you are against it, why are you trying to propagate it?
> 
> 
> 
> It's like saying "I'm against underage drinking but anyone know where I can score some fake IDs?"


No, it is not.

It is like saying that I think trucks and SUV's make lousy daily drivers and get lousy fuel economy, but a good friend would like one because he needs to tow a boat and cannot afford to maintain a Malibu and a Tahoe simultaneously.  Not being versed in trucks and SUV's due to my belief that all cars should handle like slot cars, weigh no more than 3400 pounds and get at least 25mpg, I am not qualified to make the recommendation.

Underage drinking is illegal, as is using fake ID's to facilitate it.  Add on hapkido is not illegal.  It may or may not be a good idea, but that is a different subject.

Rather than going out of your way to be obnoxious, you could use some of that experience that you claim to have and actually give decent advice to people.  

If you have nothing to contribute other than smug snipes, then please refrain from comment.  

Daniel


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

You're reading way too much into it. More simply put - Why help with something that you think is a bad idea? 

Can you offer a distance learning program for Kumdo? Would you think its a good idea? Could someone understand the subtleties of the art? Would you take intstruction from someone that learned that way? Would you want someone that you loved to learn from someone that learned that way and rely on it. 

It makes for craptasic MAs and should be mocked and denounced. If his friend wants a more robust art he should make the effort to learn one, not look for short cuts.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> He's a 3rd dan in TKD.  Independent style, pretty much punch/kick stuff with some throws from judo thrown in.  He knows some rudimentary wrist and shoulder locks and does them well from the scenarios he has practiced.



Methinks that getting his students incredibly solid in the basic locks and throws that he is skilled in might be more beneficial than para-content hoshinsul.



dancingalone said:


> Although he uses the Chang Hon forms, he's certainly not ITF.  I didn't know the ITF sold videos that cover hoshinsul.  Are you familiar with their content?  Are they any 'good'?



I am not personally familiar with it.  I cannot afford the 16 volume encyclopedia.  This might not be the worst place to start though:  http://www.amazon.com/Chang-Hon-Taekwon-do-Hae-Sul/dp/1906628041  Given that the author is Stuart Anslow, I will recommend the book unread.



dancingalone said:


> I generally agree, *but I think there's an whole undefined range between taekwondo and hapkido.  Some of the old school taekwondo schools seem to work this material more as their masters were Koreans who might have learned what we call hapkido in their formative years.*  It's this offering that my friend wants to beef up in his school.


I agree with you here.  My early taekwondo experience was along these lines.

Sport is the monkey wrench.  Effective sport training is very time consuming and leaves little time for the rest.  We are fighting that battle in Kumdo between the practical sword work and Kumsul being balanced with the KKA style kumdo (Korean kendo).  Each really is course of study on its own.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> You're reading way too much into it.


I am not reading anything into it.



Kumbajah said:


> More simply put - Why help with something that you think is a bad idea?
> 
> 
> It makes for craptasic MAs and should be mocked and denounced. If his friend wants a more robust art he should make the effort to learn one, not look for short cuts.


What you just posted is an actual answer (as opposed to a snipe), is helpful in that it addresses directly the question posed by the OP, and is what you could have/should have said in the first place.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Methinks that getting his students incredibly solid in the basic locks and throws might be more beneficial than para-content hoshinsul.



Well, that's the issue.  He's only learned bits and pieces of various techniques.  He doesn't know how to apply say a shoulder lock, except from a very specific opening, since that's all he's been taught.

The obvious solution is to train in a full system that offers content of this nature, but that's not possible for him for a variety of reasons.  (Heck, I could teach him Okinawan karate!)  I believe there's a median point between learning a new art entirely and doing without the knowledge at all.  It's this niche area of learning that would be beneficial to him.



> I am not personally familiar with it.  I cannot afford the 16 volume encyclopedia.  This might not be the worst place to start though:  http://www.amazon.com/Chang-Hon-Taekwon-do-Hae-Sul/dp/1906628041  Given that the author is Stuart Anslow, I will recommend the book unread.



I do not believe General Choi's Encyclopedia is a sufficient source to learn by oneself.  Ideally any add-on program like this should come with training opportunities too.  It shouldn't just be a book or a DVD.

I own the Anslow book myself, and I like it, but I think my friend is looking for material independent of hyung.  Basically a soup to nuts learning opportunity based on responses to grabs, headlocks, pushes, etc.  This is material many taekwondo schools practice already.


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## dortiz (Jan 12, 2010)

Finding a program as an add on with good DVds and seminars to back up the work is not like trying to learn Kumdo long distance.
We are talking about folks who have an art down and have bits and pieces but need direction.
YES, always better to be in a school but if you cant why not use the next best learning tool.
As mentioned specific programs designed to be used with support are out there.

Although I would still say driving even up two hours for the right class 4 even 2 times a month would be better.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

Dave, 

I don't see how you can differentiate between the two (Kumdo/Hapkido) as different in distance learning. Hapkido is not TKD. People attempt to add HKD to TKD not the other way around. 

Dancing,

You don't question the morality of someone "learning" something in less than ideal situations and then passing themselves off as an"expert" able to teach someone else. And then others (his students) accepting that they are learning from an "expert." Is fraud at a minium and possibly reckless endangerment.   

Why don't you just teach him Okinawan Karate?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I do not believe General Choi's Encyclopedia is a sufficient source to learn by oneself.  Ideally any add-on program like this should come with training opportunities too.  It shouldn't just be a book or a DVD.


No, you would need more than the encyclopedia.  But I have not even seen that, so I do not know if the content is forms based or nuts and bolts.  Given that it is a 16 volume set, I would hope that there is more than just forms applications in it.

The reason that I mentioned the Choi encyclopedia set is that he may be able to find someone locally who teaches the SD content, which would eliminate the whole 'distance learning' issue.

This might be more along the lines of what you were after, though again, I am not familiar with the SD content.
http://www.aimaa.com/index.html

At some point, no matter what he chooses to do, he is going to have to have some kind of in person training.  I do question how well seminars can realistically prepare a striker with minimal exposure to throws and locks to teach the material effectively in a class setting.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Jan 12, 2010)

"I don't see how you can differentiate between the two (Kumdo/Hapkido) as different in distance learning. Hapkido is not TKD. People attempt to add HKD to TKD not the other way around. "

What I am saying is that learning either style that way wont work. 

Taking a program like Combat Hapkido or Koryus two man sets and bunkais and applying them to what you already have to me is a different conversation.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> Can you offer a distance learning program for Kumdo?


*Can* I?  Sure.  Would I?  No.  Due to the fact that the effectiveness of such a program depends greatly on the student, and the fact that video learning eliminates any means of evaluating a new student, I would have to say no thank you.



Kumbajah said:


> Would you think its a good idea?


In asking this, you _seem_ to assume that I think that it is a good idea with regards to hapkido.  My answer regarding both arts is the same: I have mixed feelings, generally negative.  My opinion is different depending upon who the student is.  See below.



Kumbajah said:


> Could someone understand the subtleties of the art?


Depends.  To a first dan iaidoka, HDGD practitioner, or equivalent rank western sword stylist?  Sure, though they would reach the limit of what can be taught via distance learning fairly quickly.  To a guy who had little or no experience whatsoever?  No.



Kumbajah said:


> Would you take intstruction from someone that learned that way?


Moot point: I have been training for several years and have no need of doing so.  If a respected instructor of higher rank than myself in the same organization had learned some forms for the dao after picking up a video with the traditional forms for that weapon, sure.  It's a single edged sword and the principles are the same.  So long as he was up front about the fact that he had learned these specific forms from a video, I would be okay with that.



Kumbajah said:


> Would you want someone that you loved to learn from someone that learned that way and rely on it.


Well, nobody relies upon kumdo.

But this last question is the main issue with regards to the OP.  The OP's friend has a solid TKD program and is looking to enhance the SD, presumably in the areas of locks and grapples; I would hope that striking defense curriculum is already solid.  

Since he is looking to add "Self Defense" and not just forms or fitness, I do feel that more than just dvd and seminar back up is needed to introduce locks and throws into a class, though dvd's and seminar backup is a good way for him to personally get his feet wet, make contacts, and then find a place to train in it long enough to be able to teach it.  Knowing Dancing fairly well here, I would be surprised if he has not already given his friend similar advice or encouraged him to find a good local school.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

TDK experience doesn't equal HKD experience. They are different arts, they move in different ways. There is a different paradigm they function in. 

Someone comes to an instructor to learn a life skill. They trust that whom they are learning from is an expert. 

To me (and most) that is someone that has put in the hours and was nurtured/molded into their current position as a teacher. Just as you would with any other type of instructor (kindergarden teach through college professor). They have done the necessary work and have been evaluated as worthy as an instructor. ( not just rubber stamped as another income source) 

To bypass that is to betray that trust. Someone may just stake their life on what your friend has taught them. Most likely not. If they do -  it may be enough or it might be just enough to get them hurt or killed. 

I take it as a huge responsibility - you may not. Martial arts aren't magic and they aren't parlor tricks. It's through the hard work and effort you can see what the limitations are. Otherwise it's the blind leading the blind. 

I get the sense that he's looking for something as "value added" to enhance his business rather than knowledge to enhance his students. A huge difference IMO.


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Sigh.  I was really hoping this type of discussion about the appropriateness of add-on programs could have been given its own thread where I would likely have participated.  Thanks for crapping on my thread, Kumbajah.  Your antagonism very likely drove off participation from some who may have been able to offer the information I was seeking.  Neg points coming your way and deservedly so.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> I get the sense that he's looking for something as "value added" to enhance his business rather than knowledge to enhance his students. A huge difference IMO.


99% of the time, that is the goal in these scenarios.  As I do not know Dancing's friend, I will refrain from assuming his motivations.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Sigh.  I was really hoping this type of discussion about the appropriateness of add-on programs could have been given its own thread where I would likely have participated.


As with kiddie black belts, sport vs. art, and other hot topics, it already has.  They tend to end up locked for some odd reason.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Sigh.  I was really hoping this type of discussion about the appropriateness of add-on programs could have been given its own thread where I would likely have participated.  Thanks for crapping on my thread, Kumbajah.  Your antagonism very likely drove off participation from some who may have been able to offer the information I was seeking.  Neg points coming your way and deservedly so.



Good  If I've stopped someone from going down this path - my job is done.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> Good  If I've stopped someone from going down this path - my job is done.


Now you are back to sniping, though I doubt that you see it as such.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Jan 12, 2010)

"TDK experience doesn't equal HKD experience. They are different arts, they move in different ways. There is a different paradigm they function in."

  Sorry to ruin your thread dancingalone.
I in many ways agree with you Kumbajah and get why you are so passionate.
I guess what we dont know for sure is what really going on here. If its adding a program as a whole by long distance, it just wont work.
If its finding materials that let you add to your existing program, then I think its fine.
Bad example, New Combat HKD class added based off DVDs watched. 
Good Example: 3 step sparring now adding 3 new finishes based on moves from DVds that fit on existing entries or can variate easily and make sense to existing style and program.


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## The Last Legionary (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Is anyone aware of specific curriculum available for sale with further training available via seminars?  Someone I know is interested in adding a heavier SD component to his TKD school.
> 
> He's already aware of the "Combat Hapkido" option, and he's not necessarily concerned about style purity, ranks, etc.  He just wants to beef up his SD offerings within his school and will make a credible attempt to learn the material to an instructor level before teaching it himself to others.
> 
> I'm fully aware the some will have negative opinions about so-called "add-on" hapkido.  I'm probably one of them.  Hope someone can help regardless.


Look in the back of Black Belt magazine. Many of their offerings fit the bill.

Of course, finding a local or close by instructor for personal training, who you can build a relationship with, bring in for a quarterly tune up seminar, and actually learn a bit more from than you would ever get from a video would be the long-term better investment. Course, a quick buck tack on of side program, you can build by just pulling random crap together and charge an extra $20 a month for.

I like the "I'm going to ding you" comment back a bit though. Nice confession to breaking the site rules. I'm sure that'll win you favor with the modsquad. Then again, neither will the crap other folks tossed in. The OP asked a question, clarified he only wanted to hear the good info and not the negatives. Seems the topic was defined. How long before we see a mod warning here? Is that what's wanted? ok, back to drinking sugar water for me.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 12, 2010)

I am going to assume based on the title of the thread that it is an add-on that is sought rather than a full program.  Dancing is pretty particular in what he posts, so I am willing to take his posts at face value.

Seems that we have an independent school that teaches Chang Hon forms and is looking to expand the curriculum to include some grapples, locks and throws with practical SD application.

My question to the OP is this:  How elaborate is he looking to get?  Does he have a sport program currently in place and is it mandatory?  You may have already answered that question, so apologies if you have.

Basic SD is not the same as learning a full MA.  In fact, if all that you want is applicable self defense, one does not need what is contained in most full MA"s to have it.  But what is needed to make it worthwhile is a substantial amount of drilling and live training with resisting partners of varying sizes.

This is the main reason that I have participated.  If the question had been "can you learn hapkido from videos and occasional seminars" I would simply have said no.  But that is not what is being asked.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> Good  If I've stopped someone from going down this path - my job is done.



You haven't done anything other than make it difficult for someone to give me the information I asked for.  

I politely asked you to create a new thread rather than derailing mine, but you were too rude to comply.

Perhaps you should pick a new username.  Kumbajah seems inappropriate except in a sarcastic fashion.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 12, 2010)

Gents, ladies, before we have to get an official warning in here, lets drop the sniping, and focus on the original request.  It'll make everyone's day better. K?  Thanks.


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## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2010)

Folks, I don't believe that the topic is what has or has not been discussed before.  I'm certain it's not taking pot shots at other people, no matter how obliquely done.  So maybe we can try to stay on topic, and avoid the personal attacks, OK? 

Anybody got any advice for how a TKD instructor can successfully add or increase the self defense content of his or her program?


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 12, 2010)

I do not personally know of any particular program (dvd's, seminars, etc.). But adding basic principles to a solid base, IMHO, is a justified pursuit. Whoever claims that their TKD is the only TKD, is just ignorant. The names Kong Soo Do, Tang Soo Do, and any of the various Kwans, all have some of their members now represented as TKD. I know that my kwan jang nim teaches some joint locks, throws, and take downs in our curriculum, and who is so omnipotent to say that this isn't TKD?

If you add the *principle* technique approaches that are taught, any number of these "add on" techs fit nicely within a given curriculum IMHO. 

Where is your friend located, Dancing? Although I do not know of any seminars or dvd's, depending on his background I may be able to offer some insight.


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am going to assume based on the title of the thread that it is an add-on that is sought rather than a full program.  Dancing is pretty particular in what he posts, so I am willing to take his posts at face value.
> 
> Seems that we have an independent school that teaches Chang Hon forms and is looking to expand the curriculum to include some grapples, locks and throws with practical SD application.



Yes, that's exactly the material that is being sought here.  As many of you know, I train Okinawan karate and aikido.  I fully realize every system has distinct knowledge that can never be passed via video or book.  It would indeed be laughable if someone watched a DVD and then claimed to be a teacher of hapkido.

That's not the scenario here though.  The premise is simply that a trained martial artist with some rudimentary knowledge already of how to apply wrist locks and shoulder locks is seeking to offer a broader curriculum of like material in his school.  The purist answer is "well, go train hapkido, go train aikido".  It's also overkill.

I believe you can learn a few tricks (and they can even be effective, useful techniques) without learning an entire martial art.  As a base example, just take kote gaeshi from aikido.  Teach it in response to a collar grab.  A wrist grab.  A shoulder grab.  A straight punch from the right hand.  A hooking punch from the left hand.  You get my point hopefully.  Learning these discrete case examples will still be valuable to someone who has mostly striking skills, even if they won't 'understand' the technique compared to someone who has trained for hours in the simple happo undo turning exercise.  You don't have to get 'all' of something for it to still be useful and repeatable.

And that's really all this thread was supposed to ask.  I'm certainly competent enough to throw together a program of this ilk, but I was trying to find out if it had been done well already by someone else.  Plenty of 'mere' taekwondo schools even do something similar already.



> My question to the OP is this:  How elaborate is he looking to get?  Does he have a sport program currently in place and is it mandatory?  You may have already answered that question, so apologies if you have.



Daniel, I'm sure he's looking for something less than apprenticing himself to a hapkido master, but at the same time he's surely looking for something cohesive that builds upon levels of understanding so there is material for both beginners and those who might have a bit more experience.


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Where is your friend located, Dancing? Although I do not know of any seminars or dvd's, depending on his background I may be able to offer some insight.



He's close enough to say Austin, Texas.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I believe you can learn a few tricks (and they can even be effective, useful techniques) without learning an entire martial art.  As a base example, just take kote gaeshi from aikido.  Teach it in response to a collar grab.  A wrist grab.  A shoulder grab.  A straight punch from the right hand.  A hooking punch from the left hand.  You get my point hopefully.  Learning these discrete case examples will still be valuable to someone who has mostly striking skills, even if they won't 'understand' the technique compared to someone who has trained for hours in the simple happo undo turning exercise.  You don't have to get 'all' of something for it to still be useful and repeatable.



This is the premise that I whole heartily disagree with. Doing a Kote Gaeshi incorrectly is more dangerous than not doing it at all. You learn that it is the positioning not the wrist twisting that is important and why the technique works. You only get that from studying the basics. If you see it a "trick" you are missing the point and more likely than not you'll be putting yourself in a worse position. Happo Undo integrates the proper body movement and more valuable. 

It's better to be good at one thing than bad at one hundred.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> He's close enough to say Austin, Texas.



http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Austi...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> This is the premise that I whole heartily disagree with. Doing a Kote Gaeshi incorrectly is more dangerous than not doing it at all. You learn that it is the positioning not the wrist twisting that is important and why the technique works. You only get that from studying the basics. If you see it a "trick" you are missing the point and more likely than not you'll be putting yourself in a worse position. Happo Undo integrates the proper body movement and more valuable.
> 
> It's better to be good at one thing than bad at one hundred.




You're far too extreme it seems.  Learning kote gaeshi is not an all-or-nothing scenario.  Even a black belt gets better and better at the same technique over the years as he grows and refines himself in the art.

The same can happen for a layman who learns the gross technique.  Who knows, he might even seek out more detailed instruction from someone in the jujutsu-derived arts ultimately.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You're far too extreme it seems.  Learning kote gaeshi is not an all-or-nothing scenario.  Even a black belt gets better and better at the same technique over the years as he grows and refines himself in the art.
> 
> The same can happen for a layman who learns the gross technique.  Who knows, he might even seek out more detailed instruction from someone in the jujutsu-derived arts ultimately.



Yes, perhaps but you are speaking to personal growth here. We all get better overtime (hopefully)  What your original question asked is how to gain a bit of knowledge to pass on to students in the guise of an expert, as something that works, as something that can be used by students to defend one's self. Different beast. 

Without a proper tenkan or irimi, kote gaeshi ain't gonna work. Most likely you'll just get punched in the head or worse  

You know this.


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> Yes, perhaps but you are speaking to personal growth here. We all get better overtime (hopefully)  What your original question asked is how to gain a bit of knowledge to pass on to students in the guise of an expert, as something that works, as something that can be used by students to defend one's self. Different beast.



I can teach someone without karate knowledge a front kick today.  Give them a few months of drilling daily in response to various stimuli and he can use that front kick effectively when they need to.

I can teach someone without any aikido knowledge kote gaeshi today.  Give them a year or so of daily drills against a variety of attacks and attackers and this too will be something he can use effectively when prompted with the stimuli he has trained against.

You're puffing up the complexity too much.  Understanding of balance and leverage is universal to all systems, even striking ones.  In the end, kote gaeshi is just a wrist lock and it's something anyone can learn given sufficient practice and guidance.  And the chances of a student getting it are enhanced if they already understand distancing, balance, and leverage from studying another art.  And even if he doesn't get it 100%,  you don't have to understand everything about a technique in order to be able to use it in an effective fashion.



> Without a proper tenkan or irimi, kote gaeshi ain't gonna work. Most likely you'll just get punched in the head or worse
> 
> You know this.


A taekwondoist as my friend is would surely understand that a judicious punch makes all of these techniques much easier to execute, even without 'proper' turning or entry.  Like I said, he's not looking to be effortless like the likes of Ueshiba.  He just wants to learn a few darn locks and throws!


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

Ok - then with your experience, why aren't you teaching him? You know some Aikido - teach it to him. No need to look to Hapkido or any other outside sources.


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

Kum,

Enough trolling from you.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

That is a legitimate question not a troll.


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## jks9199 (Jan 12, 2010)

ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please keep the discussion polite, respectful and on topic. 

jks9199
Sr. Moderator


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

Seriously, you seem custom tailored to his needs, dan ranking in a similar art plus Aikido knowledge of throws and locks - why as a friend, wouldn't you teach him if that's exactly what he's looking for. Just a little extra knowledge to pass along to his students. You seem confident in your ability to do so per your post on front kick and kote gaeshi.


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## terryl965 (Jan 12, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Folks, I don't believe that the topic is what has or has not been discussed before. I'm certain it's not taking pot shots at other people, no matter how obliquely done. So maybe we can try to stay on topic, and avoid the personal attacks, OK?
> 
> Anybody got any advice for how a TKD instructor can successfully add or increase the self defense content of his or her program?


 
Well for me it was easy since I was a Okinawa karate guy first, but I did find that adding Combat Hapkido was a great choice it landed in a way that has increase my understanding of joint locks and such. I have also added alot of ground work over the last two years such as Judo and wrestling. I for one believe TKD has a solid base for S.D. principle but the problem alot of guys find out is they really never looked for it in the beginning of there journey so they have gaps inside there armour. One thing for sure with Combat Hapkido it is a thing that can be added on with seminars and video support and also it seems there is alot of people out there that have that mand set inside TKD and others arts. 

One problem I see is being able to get conset feedback when we need it, that is why evrybody should be able to get one on one from a qualify instructor to the finer points of the art.


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## terryl965 (Jan 12, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> That is a legitimate question not a troll.


 
Well if you are seriously asking legitimate question, than please put yourself in the other person shoe for one minute and see how it sounds from there.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

I did, that's why I rephrased it. If he possess the skills his friend is seeking out why isn't he providing them. Why look to Hapkido?


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2010)

This answer is for others on MT who might legitimately wonder:

Friendship and professionalism seldom mix well.  I do not teach friends.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 12, 2010)

I find your answer a bit suspect. ( you seem to find my motives suspect - so I don't feel too bad about it  

Your friend seems to just wants a few tricks, not become your student or anyone's student for that matter. (There is Hapkido instruction in his area. If he wanted that he could get it - See the Google link ) A  couple of months would probably get him where he wants to go.  

You providing the knowledge would be an ideal situation. He would be under an instructors tutelage, there is no rank being transfered. He's not taking up a new art. Just a few tricks to pass along. You can show him how you've integrated your Aikido into your Karate. I honestly don't see the problem. It wouldn't be a professional situation. Just a couple of buddies sharing what they know. I've done that on many occasions with friends that study other arts. 

UNLESS... what he is seeking to do is to purchase legitimacy.  " The above name is  certified by Joe Blow's House of Hoshinsool to teach self defense"  A DVD and maybe a couple of seminars  a "poof"  - a new class and source of income. Thereby defrauding his students who would probably assume that his grappling knowledge would be on par with his TKD after all he's teaching them at the same school. Not acknowledging that his students probably could get better instruction at a few outside seminars but he's got a certificate, so... it's cool.  

Or ... this is a high school smoke screen tactic "I have this friend who..."


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 13, 2010)

Dancing already made it plain that teaching his friend himself is not going to happen.  This does not seem suspect because there is nothing *to *suspect.

I teach only one friend outside of KMA inc.and he is a student only (as opposed to a teacher in another system elsewhere).  I have numerous other friends whom I do not teach, but whom I do gather information for.  I could teach each of them kumdo.  But by the time I am finished with my day job, teaching duties at KMA, and other commitments, I have this thing called a family that I like to spend time with.  Not to mention that I need alone time and time to attend to my own personal practice.  

There are only but so many hours in the day.  Friend or not, if you do not have the time, you do not have the time. 

I also know of many people who will not engage in their profession with friends, and none of them martial arts.  My good friend who teaches jazz and classical guitar did not pony up free lessons when I started talking about taking up guitar again and asking him about what instructional book he'd recommend.  Nor did I expect him to.  When he is not teaching, he has a girlfriend and a life.  

As to why he and I do not trade kumdo lessons for guitar lessons, well, as cool as that would be, and he has expressed interest in learning the sword, our schedules simply make doing so impossible.

Sometimes, it is logistically impossible to do.  Sometimes, it is just best to keep one's friendships separate from one's craft.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 13, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> I did, that's why I rephrased it. If he possess the skills his friend is seeking out why isn't he providing them. Why look to Hapkido?


It seems very common for taekwondo schools to add on material from hapkido.  This is not surprising.  It is another KMA, so it maintains a Korean cultural element.  As hapkido is also a striking art,the perception is that its grappling/throwing techniques segue well with taekwondo.

Also, there is a myriad of material available in either DVD format or online study that also has seminars to go along with it.

While the dvd/online + seminars is not the route that I would personally take, I do not dismiss it out of hand.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 13, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Daniel, I'm sure he's looking for something less than apprenticing himself to a hapkido master, but at the same time he's surely looking for something cohesive that builds upon levels of understanding so there is material for both beginners and those who might have a bit more experience.


I am not personally familiar with any of these groups, but they may fit the bill:

http://www.martialartsresource.com/Hoshinsool-online/hkdvideo.htm
http://www.worldhapkido.com/
http://www.kuksul.com/

I had mentioned this one before: 
http://www.aimaa.com/

And of course, the ever popular:
http://www.dsihq.com/#combat-hapkido--the-ichf-4c5083

The last one, CHKD, is the only one that I have have heard anything first hand about that I know for fact has supporting seminars.  The other three may, but I have heard nothing about any of them.

AIMAA I have no first hand feedback on, but the GM is Hee Il Cho.

Daniel


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## dortiz (Jan 13, 2010)

Teaching works best in the environment we know how to teach in. Change that and it just gets hard.
Can I have a friend come to regular class? Yes.
Would I want to teach my friend casually, no. Too much work surfing outside of the normal boundries that create the rules and manner to teach in.
Not saying it cant be done, just saying I would not want to either.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 13, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Dancing already made it plain that teaching his friend himself is not going to happen.  This does not seem suspect because there is nothing *to *suspect.
> 
> I teach only one friend outside of KMA inc.and he is a student only (as opposed to a teacher in another system elsewhere).  I have numerous other friends whom I do not teach, but whom I do gather information for.  I could teach each of them kumdo.  But by the time I am finished with my day job, teaching duties at KMA, and other commitments, I have this thing called a family that I like to spend time with.  Not to mention that I need alone time and time to attend to my own personal practice.
> 
> ...




Danny,

 Thanks for playing mother hen but unless you are Dancingalone you are speculating as much as I may be. If he has an answer, he can answer.


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## goingd (Jan 14, 2010)

I can see how Kumbaja is coming off rudely to some people, but it's not like his points can't be seen. This forum is not for politicians, so a bluntly honest response - even if it may not seem like a perfectly direct answer - should be expected.

If you ask someone a question face to face, and they answer you with a question for the sake of gathering more information, do you respond by saying, "Quit bogging down my conversation and go start a different discussion?"

Dancingalone, you pointed out yourself that people may have negative opinions about the idea. It may not have the kind of negativity you were expecting, but you left yourself and the thread open to it anyway. Threads like this often get locked and they don't need to be. Kumbaja might not have sounded so polite, but from an outside perspective you seemed to be blowing him off, and that's not exactly courtesy.

Now, I'm happy to start a thread specific to "add on self defense," because Lord knows people can't control themselves on both sides.

No disrespect intended. Just an honest answer for an honest situation.


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## dancingalone (Jan 15, 2010)

goingd said:


> I can see how Kumbaja is coming off rudely to some people, but it's not like his points can't be seen. This forum is not for politicians, so a bluntly honest response - even if it may not seem like a perfectly direct answer - should be expected.
> 
> If you ask someone a question face to face, and they answer you with a question for the sake of gathering more information, do you respond by saying, "Quit bogging down my conversation and go start a different discussion?"



He is breaking the rules of this forum in not following the topic of the original post.  I suggested opening a new thread which would have been the proper way to branch off discussion.  Message boards are not in person conversations, obviously.  They have different interactions, so I don't see a relevance to comparing the two.  The rules of the forum trump all.  Ask Bob.



> Dancingalone, you pointed out yourself that people may have negative opinions about the idea. It may not have the kind of negativity you were expecting, but you left yourself and the thread open to it anyway. Threads like this often get locked and they don't need to be. Kumbaja might not have sounded so polite, but from an outside perspective you seemed to be blowing him off, and that's not exactly courtesy.



Did you read the beginning of the thread?  I have short shrift for uncourteous people who can't be troubled to follow the rules we all signed up for on this forum, even when politely asked to do so.  I also have little interest to engage the same kind of people in conversation when it is obvious they're just playing around and trying to irritate others rather than adding to the conversation.



> Now, I'm happy to start a thread specific to "add on self defense," because Lord knows people can't control themselves on both sides.
> 
> No disrespect intended. Just an honest answer for an honest situation.



Good.  Let's see how long your thread lasts.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 15, 2010)

I just gave an answer that you didn't like - It was still "on point". I was addressing the name of the thread - "Add-on TKD Hoshinsul and Hapkido"

I hold the opinion that it makes for craptastic MAs and is a method of fraud and devalues MAs as a whole. I am not comfortable contributing to the deliberate defrauding of MA students. It is a disingenuous business practice and disingenuous practice of MAs. To say nothing against it would have been contributing to it.


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## dancingalone (Jan 15, 2010)

goingd said:


> If you ask someone a question face to face, and they answer you with a question for the sake of gathering more information, do you respond by saying, "Quit bogging down my conversation and go start a different discussion?"



As a further point, when the moderators are giving warnings that the topic should be adhered to, it's obvious that a rule is being broken.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 15, 2010)

I would try and dissuade your friend from going down that dark path and seek out a Hapkido instructor. He may find something he really enjoys. Who knows - he may become an Hapkido instructor himself.


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## dancingalone (Jan 15, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am not personally familiar with any of these groups, but they may fit the bill:
> http://www.worldhapkido.com/
> http://www.kuksul.com/Daniel



Daniel, I suggested my friend buy all of these resources as part of his due diligence in investigating his training options via dvd/and or seminars.  As they come in, I'll probably post some notes on their usefulness from our perspective (mine will surely differ some from his) on the off chance that it may be helpful to someone else on MT in the future.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 15, 2010)

Kumbajah said:


> I just gave an answer that you didn't like - It was still "on point". I was addressing the name of the thread - "Add-on TKD Hoshinsul and Hapkido"
> 
> I hold the opinion that it makes for craptastic MAs and is a method of fraud and devalues MAs as a whole. I am not comfortable contributing to the deliberate defrauding of MA students. It is a disingenuous business practice and disingenuous practice of MAs. To say nothing against it would have been contributing to it.


Sir,

This is a sweeping generalization.  Not to mention that it assumes an awful lot.  Assuming that an individual is somehow defrauding his or her students or being otherwise dishonest simply because they add techniques from outside of their system into their curriculum is much further than one should go without knowing the individual in question.

In the past many masters went to other masters to pick up techniques outside of their given system and then integrated them into their own system without learning the entire system from which those techniques came.  A good number of systems that we call "traditional" now began this way.  Because they have proven to be effective systems over time, how they acquired the techniques in the first place is not questioned.  

Consider hapkido.  Think about how Choi Yong Sul would be viewed today if he tried to found hapkido with the same story about his background that he gave back in the forties.  He would be accused of rank falsification (nobody can verify that he studied under Takeda) and branded a fraud.  Something for a hapkido practitioner to consider before accusing someone in another system of somehow defrauding his students and creating craptastic MA simply because are looking to add some grapples to a striking art. 

Your major protestation seems to center around the video/online backed up by seminars method of crosstraining.  Had he asked about going to a hapkido school to crosstrain, I doubt that this thread would have taken the direction that it has.  There are certainly a good number of potential pitfalls in this approach, all of which have been enumerated on both this thread and on others.

Daniel


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## Kumbajah (Jan 15, 2010)

Danny, 

What you fail to appreciate is the question (the initial post) , in it's asking is offensive to me. Dancing seems to understand that an art needs to be studied in whole to appreciate the concepts that make it work when I it comes to an art that he has studied (aikido- http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1257829&postcount=9) but seems to think that studying Hapkido piecemeal is ok. It devalues Hapkido and I take it as bashing my art. So asking how to do it offends me - It is a trolling question. 

If he had asked a recommendation for a Hapkido teacher in his area, I wouldn't have been offended in the least.


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## jks9199 (Jan 15, 2010)

Thread locked pending staff review.

jks9199
Sr. Moderator


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