# Any proof that systema existed 1000 years ago?



## believer (May 24, 2003)

I became interested in russian martial arts recently.  I hear systema is over 1000 years old.  Although it sounds cool, i find it hard to believe that an art can be that old with no recorded evidence.  Can someone clear this with me?  I just want some proof on how old the art really is. A simple, "My russian grandfather heard his grandfather talk about systema"  Even that will do..........


----------



## jellyman (May 24, 2003)

Systema in its current form is modern, however it is a synthesis of precursor RMA's like Buza, Borba, (peasant arts) and the martial skills of the gentry (where tsarist officers (some of whom crossed over to the bolshies diring the revolution) came from)  etc. At the eve of the revolution, it's worth knowing that the aristocracy throughout Europe was very much into jujutsu at the time, in addition to sword, spear, equestrian, wrestling and fistic arts.

There are pre-revolutionary texts referring to wall-fighting and one of the students at ou club has a dad who called what he learned one nihgt 'hill fighting' (that would be Borba). An oft-raised objection is that wall fighting was a toughman event, but the systema training philosphy is that need drives function, and that you naturally develop your art as you are thrown into demanding situations.

And of course the Soviets did a lot of suppression of history, although I have been told that in Yale there exists a pre-revolutionary survey of slavo-russo forms of wrestling and striking.

A history prof I met in Moscow opined that it is a synthesis of various slavic tribal styles. She cited a pre-revolutionary tract only published in Russian entitled 'Cossack fisticuffs' as the basis for this opinion.

My opinion - some moves in systema seem to be based on sword fighting (which the gentry would know but the peasants would not), and fist fighting would be beneath most gentry, but the peasant would need to know this, so I think the gentry/peasant synthesis is probably mostly correct, although I would also suppose that the Soviets were entirely too pragmatic to just leave it 'pure' - how many pre-revolutionary russians had to deal with automatic weapons etc? - and probably developed/augmented it with whatever they saw as useful - there's even systema for fighter pilots these days. The philosphy of systema is flexible enough that you could subsume any art into it - it's not about techniques but principles, and theoretically any possible movement is part of it.

my 2 cents.

Here's the account that seems to be the most agreeable to me:

http://www.rma-augsburg.narod.ru/en/rma/hist.html


----------



## jellyman (May 24, 2003)

I should add that it's not completely accurate - for example, it says that the Bolshies overthrew a democratic government, when in fact tsarist Russia was anything but democratic - it was practically medeival.


----------



## Arthur (May 24, 2003)

Well there really aren't any democracies i the modern age, as far as I can tell... that aside... great post Jelly!

thanks!

Arthur


----------



## MartialArtsGuy (May 26, 2003)

Arthur you are wonderfull. All along i thought i was the only one who realized this.  Just kidding


----------



## Larry (May 27, 2003)

Shucks! Over here too?!

Arthur, you're going to get me in trouble yet!  

As Neal Boortz once put it, "a democracy is three Klansmen and a black voting on whether to lynch the black."

Democracies are *terrible*. The USA is not a democracy! Technically, we're a constitutional republic. While most of our elections are based on majority election, we vote for representatives who then vote in congress on various laws, treaties, etc. Having elected representatives vote on laws, etc. is a republican form of government, not a democratic. A democratic form of government is where every citizen votes on every issue.

And our republic is constrained (at least it's supposed to be) by a constitution that spells out the limits of government.

There is a respect for minority rights (that's why the president is elected, not by a majority vote, but by the Electoral College. The college is biased, giving greater electoral weight to the smaller populated states compared to the states with larger populations. That way, the citizens of New York or California can't run the country. Also, while the House has congressmen proportional to a state's given population, the senate has two senators per state. Wyoming in the senate has just as many senators as California.

We have free elections, not democratic elections.

Just a particular bee in my bonnet. I think the Democrats have been pushing the "we're a democratic country" scam since the 1920's, to encourage the politically illiterate to vote for their party.

It's just not true.


----------



## Jay Bell (May 27, 2003)

> As Neal Boortz once put it, "a democracy is three Klansmen and a black voting on whether to lynch the black."



*chuckle*  Ben Franklin said, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. "


----------



## Don Roley (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jellyman _
> *I should add that it's not completely accurate - for example, it says that the Bolshies overthrew a democratic government, when in fact tsarist Russia was anything but democratic - it was practically medeival. *



Err, The Bolshies did indeed overthrough a democratic goverment. Have you ever heard of Alexander Kerensky? The Tsars had been removed from power, a democratic goverment was in it's infancy and in a semi-coup one of the factions back- stabbed the existing democratic system and came to power.


----------



## jellyman (May 28, 2003)

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/hornton/890/Kerensky.html



> On September 2, 1917, without the formal declaration of a Constituent Assembly, Kerensky with the title Minister-President, proclaimed Russia a Democratic Republic. Michail Alexandrovich in his diary that morning would ask the question "Is it not all the same, whatever the shape of the government, so long as there be order and justice for everybody?". Alexander Kerensky said to the government and the soviet that he wasn't going to be the "russian Marat" when they spoke about the last Czars destiny. Kerensky wanted them out of the country, for their own safety, and when they couldn't get exile in England they were moved to Tobolsk, because it have no railroad connection, they would be safe there, for a while at least. On October 25th, the "rule without reigning" Provisional Government fell



I stand corrected. Although really, can one be said to have a democracy (or participatory form of government for those of you who feel uncomfotable with the 'd' word) in place without an actual election? Anyway, sure, a 2-month democratic (sort of) government was toppled.

As for the wolves and sheep thing, it seems to me that the wolves among us are in the minority, although, being wolves, they are quite powerful. And let's not forget the sheep-dogs.


----------

