# Armed robbery for a pack of cigarettes



## thardey (Jan 8, 2009)

> When the victim refused, one of the men brandished a knife and took the cigarettes from him. The group then left the area and the victim ran into the convenience store, where staff called police to provide assistance.


http://www.ktvl.com/news/city_1188540___article.html/white_robbery.html

I think this is one of those instances where I would just give the robbers what they want.

Although, with four or more people approaching me, in a crummy part of town, I would definitely be thinking thoughts of lethal force defense.

My guess is that there's more history to this story than what the article reports. White City is a small town, these guys had probably crossed paths before.

It's hard to believe that someone on probation would be dumb enough to pull a knife on someone for a pack of cigarettes.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 9, 2009)

I fail to see what's so hard to believe...it sounds like these scumbags didn't like being told "no" and decided to take what they wanted.  The guy with the knife obviously has a record so there is no reason to doubt that he will engage in criminal behavior in the future.

Where's Paul Kersey when you need him...


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## hafoc (Jan 9, 2009)

Those guys live in a world very different from ours. I once met a guy who killed someone because he took the guy's cigarettes. The knifer, mind you, was an inmate as was the "victim." I asked the knifer why he killed the "victim" over a pack of cigarettes. His reply was, "He disrespected me."


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

hafoc said:


> Those guys live in a world very different from ours. I once met a guy who killed someone because he took the guy's cigarettes. The knifer, mind you, was an inmate as was the "victim." I asked the knifer why he killed the "victim" over a pack of cigarettes. His reply was, "He disrespected me."



And that fits the prison mindset.....'respect' is life in prison!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 9, 2009)

thardey said:


> http://www.ktvl.com/news/city_1188540___article.html/white_robbery.html
> 
> I think this is one of those instances where I would just give the robbers what they want.
> 
> ...


  I don't know......sounds like a group of thugs, one of them proving to the others how truly thuggish he is by robbing a guy of a pack of cigarettes........you have to understand how these folks think.  This is a status crime to guys like that.  He just upped his street cred.

I actually don't believe the victim knew these guys......they would pick someone who they hadn't seen around that couldn't ID them.


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## terryl965 (Jan 9, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I don't know......sounds like a group of thugs, one of them proving to the others how truly thuggish he is by robbing a guy of a pack of cigarettes........you have to understand how these folks think. This is a status crime to guys like that. He just upped his street cred.
> 
> I actually don't believe the victim knew these guys......they would pick someone who they hadn't seen around that couldn't ID them.


 

I would have to agree.


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## MJS (Jan 9, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> I fail to see what's so hard to believe...it sounds like these scumbags didn't like being told "no" and decided to take what they wanted. The guy with the knife obviously has a record so there is no reason to doubt that he will engage in criminal behavior in the future.


 
I agree!  I'm never amazed by the number of clowns that I see who violate their probation.  



> Where's Paul Kersey when you need him...


 
Amen!!  The Death Wish movies are definately on my list of favorites!!!:ultracool


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## MJS (Jan 9, 2009)

thardey said:


> http://www.ktvl.com/news/city_1188540___article.html/white_robbery.html
> 
> I think this is one of those instances where I would just give the robbers what they want.
> 
> Although, with four or more people approaching me, in a crummy part of town, I would definitely be thinking thoughts of lethal force defense.


 
See, this is where I'm always split.  The common sense logical thing to do is comply, and give them what they want.  Especially in this case, it was only a pack of cigs.  On the other hand, nothing says that they wouldn't have stabbed the guy anyways, so the other part of me says to fight back.


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## Drac (Jan 9, 2009)

thardey said:


> http://www.ktvl.com/news/city_1188540___article.html/white_robbery.html
> 
> I think this is one of those instances where I would just give the robbers what they want..


 
Yup..My life is worth a lot more than a pack of smokes...


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## Drac (Jan 9, 2009)

hafoc said:


> Those guys live in a world very different from ours. I once met a guy who killed someone because he took the guy's cigarettes. The knifer, mind you, was an inmate as was the "victim." I asked the knifer why he killed the "victim" over a pack of cigarettes. His reply was, "He disrespected me."


 
Of all the phrases I have grown to hate, the  *"he dissed me" *or *" he disrespected me"* tops the list..I have heard that excuse for almost every criminal / assault act that I have encountered...


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## Kreth (Jan 9, 2009)

Drac said:


> Yup..My life is worth a lot more than a pack of smokes...


Yeah... now a nice, hand-rolled robusto I might fight for... :lol:


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 9, 2009)

Not even a pack of smokes. The victim was asked for a cigarette (probably one for each), when he said no, that's when he was assaulted. Can you say Stoopid? 

And the thugs...yeah, won't give us a cigarette? then we'll take them all mother****er. Can you say Stoopider? heh


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## CoryKS (Jan 9, 2009)

Drac said:


> Of all the phrases I have grown to hate, the *"he dissed me" *or *" he disrespected me"* tops the list..I have heard that excuse for almost every criminal / assault act that I have encountered...


 
I HATE that phrase. Every time I hear some young punk say "He disrespected me", I want to shout "Of course he disrespected you, fool! You're not respectable!"

Prolly not a good idea. But I'm thinking it.


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 9, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I HATE that phrase.  Every time I hear some young punk say "He disrespected me", I want to shout "Of course he disrepected you, fool!  You're not respectable!"
> 
> Prolly not a good idea.  But I'm thinking it.



Right? I know. 

Very true nonetheless. They _demand_ respect. It's like a code. I'm sorry, respect has to be earned in my book.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 9, 2009)

Jade Tigress said:


> CoryKS said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very true ... all three of you. These punks do want respect that they're not giving to others, as if their status in life deserves them because they ain't like the rich who don't have to struggle (now understand *their *definition of "rich"... middle class, own homes in nice clean quiet neighborhoods, nice late model car, nice furnishings, good jobs/careers et al. *that's* "rich" to them not the Bill Gates variety), don't have to struggle like dey do to survive day to day out on dem meen streets in da hood. I's survived here so I's erned da respect dats doo too me. 
If these guys stayed in school and really paid attention during spelling classes they might get a bit more respect but not much more.  
It's *their* mindset it's how THEY see things... screw how ya'll see it, you need to live on THEIR side of the tracks for a while before you go dissin' them or disrespectin them. 

So if they "ask" for something give it up but if you ain't got it then be nice about it and let them know. I've turned guys (in those type neighborhoods) down bumming smokes from me many a time, telling them an outright lie "ain't got none" (because they aren't in plain sight like a shirt pocket) or saying, dude I only got one or two left (when I might have 10-15 actually in the pack) and they nod and leave me alone. Guess it's HOW you turn them down. However; I do go by instinct and if the hairs on my neck are up then I'll give it to them like it's no problem and a privaledge to help them out. 
I may be dumb but I ain't stoopid. 

Maybe I've been lucky or blessed or whatever, or maybe I have enough streets in me to let them know I know "what time it is" and I ain't one to mess with. I dunno. Don't wanna know. But staying calm, rational and (yes ironically) respectful will get you out of that "killing zone" of theirs when they approach you. 
As with all predators... they can smell fear.


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## thardey (Jan 9, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I don't know......sounds like a group of thugs, one of them proving to the others how truly thuggish he is by robbing a guy of a pack of cigarettes........you have to understand how these folks think. This is a status crime to guys like that. He just upped his street cred.
> 
> I actually don't believe the victim knew these guys......they would pick someone who they hadn't seen around that couldn't ID them.


 
What's so surprising about this is that it's an old Logging mill town. It's so small that it doesn't actually qualify as a town. It has no police, no post office, no high school, etc. "White City" is a misnomer. It's also not a suburb, either. But it is a self-contained community. This isn't the gang part of town. That's on the other side of the valley.

This is more of the "You might be a redneck if . . ." part of town. Cars on blocks, trailer houses everywhere, meth labs on every other block.

It's just not the part of town where you get mugged.

And he did ID them right away -- that's why I think they knew him, that, and the rediculously small size of the community. Everybody knows everybody.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 9, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> I fail to see what's so hard to believe...it sounds like these scumbags didn't like being told "no" and decided to take what they wanted. The guy with the knife obviously has a record so there is no reason to doubt that he will engage in criminal behavior in the future.
> 
> Where's Paul Kersey when you need him...


 
*"Isidro Banuelos Rodriguez was arrested on first-degree robbery charges, probation violation and being a felon in possession of a weapon."*

Yea he had a record. And why in the dickens was he out of jail? Well this time, they can hold him till trial as he was on probation and was an ex-felon in posession.

And yes, many times low class thugs will do violence and robberies on the spur of the moment. I'm quite sure these guys just decided to take the cigarette cause they were told 'no'. Didn't even think of the consequences if the cops came.

And also guys, when four people start to walk up to you late at night, people you don't know, and demand something or try to stike up a conversation, I sure hope you are packing heat, create some distance, and talk to them in a command voice to go away. All the time blading your body so you can draw your weapon if need be.

And keep an eye out for one of them to start walking around you to blind side you while you are talking to the others.

Deaf


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## thardey (Jan 10, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> *"Isidro Banuelos Rodriguez was arrested on first-degree robbery charges, probation violation and being a felon in possession of a weapon."*
> 
> Yea he had a record. And why in the dickens was he out of jail? Well this time, they can hold him till trial as he was on probation and was an ex-felon in posession.
> 
> ...


 
I guess it's a good reminder to me . . . I usually think of defending myself from fairly rational people. I don't expect them to follow the same rules that I do, but you'd think there'd be some sort of "risk vs. reward" analysis. Apparently I can't take that for granted, either.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 10, 2009)

thardey said:


> I guess it's a good reminder to me . . . I usually think of defending myself from fairly rational people. I don't expect them to follow the same rules that I do, *but you'd think there'd be some sort of "risk vs. reward" analysis*. Apparently I can't take that for granted, either.


 
I don't think you can necessarily discount that in this case. Look at it from their perspective, you have the reward (the smokes), what is the risk? Three guys, one of whom is armed, against a lone individual...probably not much risk from their perspective. 
There's also the chance that this could have been more of a hierarchical thing where they felt the need to impose their will because he refused their demand (the whole "respect" thing).


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 11, 2009)

thardey said:


> I guess it's a good reminder to me . . . I usually think of defending myself from fairly rational people. I don't expect them to follow the same rules that I do, but you'd think there'd be some sort of "risk vs. reward" analysis. Apparently I can't take that for granted, either.



With some in the criminal class simply committing these kinds of acts is reward alone.....they get Bravado points for the audaciousness of robbing someone for something so insignificant......it improves their reputation as one willing to use violence and the threat of violence to get what he wants.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 11, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> I don't think you can necessarily discount that in this case. Look at it from their perspective, you have the reward (the smokes), what is the risk? Three guys, one of whom is armed, against a lone individual...probably not much risk from their perspective.
> There's also the chance that this could have been more of a hierarchical thing where they felt the need to impose their will because he refused their demand (the whole "respect" thing).


 I strongly believe you're correct on the hierarchical respect point.......look at any hierarchical gathering of young males who are prone to violence......from high school to prison.......taking something relatively insignificant away from someone else, like their cigarettes or their chocolate pudding or their lunch money.......is an act of social dominance, it's a way of asserting dominance and control over another male......it's done in front of others, and the male the item is taken from either submits, and loses status, while the person doing the taking gains status......or he has to fight to keep whatever he takes.  And since they pick their marks carefully, they know the likelihood of their target fighting back is low.


It's also why, in some settings, one can't simply write it off as 'Oh well, i'm not fighting someone over a pudding pop'......as there's far more at stake than a pudding pop.......in prison one has to be willing to KILL to keep their 'pudding pop', or any such small transgression of male dominance......because once the label of 'MARK' is attached to you, life has just gotten INFINITELY WORSE!


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## MJS (Jan 11, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> *"Isidro Banuelos Rodriguez was arrested on first-degree robbery charges, probation violation and being a felon in possession of a weapon."*
> 
> Yea he had a record. And why in the dickens was he out of jail? Well this time, they can hold him till trial as he was on probation and was an ex-felon in posession.


 
Yes, very good question.  With the records these people most likely had, they should all be locked up for many, many years.  Amazing how the guys like this seem to end up back on the streets. *shakes head*


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 11, 2009)

MJS said:


> Yes, very good question. With the records these people most likely had, they should all be locked up for many, many years. Amazing how the guys like this seem to end up back on the streets. *shakes head*


 
Budget cuts my boy. Jail is expensive! Just today California is saying they may release a bunch of inmates from prison because of the budget shortfall in the state. The same California that has so many gun laws that only good people obey. Those laws, especially banning assault weapons, are aimed at gangs. But it will be lots of gang members that will be released from prision. Ironic, no?



sgtmac_46 said:


> With some in the criminal class simply committing these kinds of acts is reward alone.....they get Bravado points for the audaciousness of robbing someone for something so insignificant......it improves their reputation as one willing to use violence and the threat of violence to get what he wants.


 
This is true. There are 'thrill killers' and 'wildings'. Some are just full of hate and, well you just happen to be a handy one to lay it on. Not all robbers are killers, but we don't know the motivation of those who rob or assault us!

Deaf


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## MJS (Jan 11, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Budget cuts my boy. Jail is expensive! Just today California is saying they may release a bunch of inmates from prison because of the budget shortfall in the state. The same California that has so many gun laws that only good people obey. Those laws, especially banning assault weapons, are aimed at gangs. But it will be lots of gang members that will be released from prision. Ironic, no?


 
Instead of spending, or should I say wasting all that money on rehab, that doesn't work, put that cash to the budget.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 12, 2009)

I know there's always some form of moral objection whenever I bring this up, but when I think of the potential victims now at risk over a budget excuse I can't help but continue to ask when was the last time a criminal was released from a cemetery.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 12, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> I know there's always some form of moral objection whenever I bring this up, but when I think of the potential victims now at risk over a budget excuse I can't help but continue to ask when was the last time a criminal was released from a cemetery.


 
Ah yes, the prison of no parole! That does tend to put a damper on their activities.

Now about budget cuts. SCOTUS has many times ruled on inhuman treatment and such as cruel and unusual punishment. And that is why they will release convicted criminals to run around on the streets and do their crimes all over again (we are not talking suspects but convicted criminals.)

There IS no cash in the budget. The states (except Texas and a few others) have piddled all their money away on all kinds of welfare projects. The idea of a balanced budget only applies to taxpayers (and even then, alot of them are in debt to their nose!)

We have become such a 'gimme' nation that want's it all RIGHT NOW that the idea of saving is, well for those who are behind the times. So maybe what is happening now is really what we deserve. Chickens have come home to roost.

I do strongly suggest those here practice their martial art with the emphasis on martial for now. And when you go to plink with the guns, spend more effort on practicing combat techniques such as snap shooting, moving, using cover, multiple targets. 

Sorry, but that's the times we live in. As Obama starts seeing this trillion buck debt is gonna strangle everything, well expect more budget cuts, higher taxes, and more convicts let out (starting with Gitmo inmates.) The pain will definatly be spread around (with the exception of alot of rich liberals.)

Deaf


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## Cryozombie (Jan 13, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> I do strongly suggest those here practice their martial art with the emphasis on martial for now. And when you go to plink with the guns, spend more effort on practicing combat techniques such as snap shooting, moving, using cover, multiple targets.


 
But, Deaf... Violence is wrong.  Guns Kill children, and if we just dial 911 when we are being robbed we will all be ok.  

Didn't you get that memo?


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## matt.m (Jan 13, 2009)

It all comes down to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just yesterday I was getting gas and some idiots tried to rob the station. Some of us called the cops and that was it.

Outside pumping gas, see bad guys cause trouble, call cops. It is easy, I was a manager at a store and the joint got robbed. I wasn't there but the guy who was just said "Look pal, here's all the money. If you want the stuff in the store too well then cool."

The burgular took the money and that was it.

A lot of people drop hypotheticals of "I would do this or that in a given situation."  I ask the following: How do you know if you had never been in that given situation?


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## GBlues (Jan 13, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Very true ... all three of you. These punks do want respect that they're not giving to others, as if their status in life deserves them because they ain't like the rich who don't have to struggle (now understand *their *definition of "rich"... middle class, own homes in nice clean quiet neighborhoods, nice late model car, nice furnishings, good jobs/careers et al. *that's* "rich" to them not the Bill Gates variety), don't have to struggle like dey do to survive day to day out on dem meen streets in da hood. I's survived here so I's erned da respect dats doo too me.
> If these guys stayed in school and really paid attention during spelling classes they might get a bit more respect but not much more.
> It's *their* mindset it's how THEY see things... screw how ya'll see it, you need to live on THEIR side of the tracks for a while before you go dissin' them or disrespectin them.
> 
> ...


 
Here's a good one for you Caver. Even if they see me buy a brand new pack most people will ask you this I've noticed. "Hey, man you got an extra cigarette?" and I usually reply with, " Nope, they only come twenty to a pack, they start making em' with 21 I'll have an extra.", and just keep on walking. Usually by the time they've actually figured out what I just told them, I'm a good 40-50 ft. away. I usually here, " Well, you ain't gotta' a be a d**k about man." Eh, who cares. They can't afford cigarettes they shouldn't smoke. Hey, come to think of it I can and I shouldn't either. LOL! Just helping a brother out with his nicotine addiction. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Shouldn't surprise us that criminals are stupid. I've always said, "Why? would you rob a circle K for $75 Bucks? Spend the time do the research and hit a place that is going to pay you millions so you have a chance of getting away with it." At least then when you do get caught, you can say, "Yeah, I had to try, it was $75 million dollars man." Your gonna' get the same amount of time whether it's $75 dollars or $75 million dollars. If your gonna' be a crook, be an overachiever. LOL!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 13, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> But, Deaf... Violence is wrong. Guns Kill children, and if we just dial 911 when we are being robbed we will all be ok.
> 
> Didn't you get that memo?


 That's what I hear!


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 13, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> But, Deaf... Violence is wrong. Guns Kill children, and if we just dial 911 when we are being robbed we will all be ok.
> 
> Didn't you get that memo?


 
Yea I got that memo. Along with the "What if They Gave a War And Nobody Came" one.

Of course, one should ask themselves, "What if They Gave a War And Only ONE SIDE SHOWED UP?"

Sure hate to be the side that didn't show up.

I look at it this way, "Do it for the children" applies to defending them to.

I was sent this by a friend in my old home town.

http://www.tylerpaper.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090113/NEWS01/901130284/0/FRONTPAGE

Notice the cop has the bad guys gun. Looks like a Mossburg bolt action 12 guage that had liberaly been sawed off! Way below the 18 inch limit. See you don't need a pistol or 'assault' rifle. Just a shotgun and a hack saw.

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 15, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Yea I got that memo. Along with the "What if They Gave a War And Nobody Came" one.
> 
> Of course, one should ask themselves, "What if They Gave a War And Only ONE SIDE SHOWED UP?"
> 
> ...


 They throw a war, and your side doesn't show up......the other side will deliver the war to your door step!


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 15, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> They throw a war, and your side doesn't show up......the other side will deliver the war to your door step!


 
We did that for may years with Carter and Clinton. We let terrorist attack us and we didn't show up! Thus we got 9/11.

Deaf


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