# This is what is wrong with TKD



## Twin Fist (Feb 2, 2009)

http://www.eagletribune.com/punews/local_story_032012427.html

Methuen 7-year-old earns black belt in Taekwondo			 									

Most children are learning just the basics of a sport around the age of 7, but not Rayna Rodriguez.
 A Methuen resident, she was officially declared a black belt in Taekwondo on Jan. 23. A practitioner of the art since the age of 5, she's also the youngest to attain the rank at Y.K. Kim's TaeKwonDoe Research Institute in Lawrence.




WTF!?!?!?!?!?!


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## arnisador (Feb 2, 2009)

Eh...what exactly are they researching there???


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## exile (Feb 2, 2009)

There are so many things wrong with what's in that interview that it's hard to know where to begin. A BB at seven, started at five... that's, um, _two years_ to BB, after starting not too much past the toddler stage. Nice work if you can get it, eh? 'It's great sport and exercise'... uh.... 'but breaking is the hardest part'... uh...

Some things are rant-worthy... but not this. This is just something to have another beer about, and cry into it...


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## Twin Fist (Feb 2, 2009)

and people wonder why i want to take up Kaju...........


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## exile (Feb 2, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> and people wonder why i want to take up Kaju...........



No, I understand completely. 

It's gotten to the point where mockery is pointlessno satire can be as cutting as the plain _facts_ about what happens in these belt factories. I'm waiting for news stories about some five year old getting to Shodan after six whole months of 'training'. Speaking of which, sometime down the line, some child who's not completely potty-trained is going to be awarded a BB. And the really awful thing is, no one will think that there's anything in the least strange about that.... :erg:


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## Carol (Feb 2, 2009)

Dang.  It took her until she was 7?  

A 6 year old that trains at a school near my mom already has her 2nd dan in TKD.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1518167/


/sarcasm


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## Carol (Feb 2, 2009)

.....and before anyone thinks I'm bashing TKD, I'm not.  5 minutes in person with Exile or Terry will leave no doubt that their TKD has plenty of martial rigor.  

However, I am very disturbed by the plethora of schools (not only TKD) that essentially award rank for showing up.   Show up, follow the direction of the instructor, don't cause trouble in class, and *poof* you get your rank as soon as you put in the required hours on the mat and pay your tuition in the process.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 2, 2009)

i got some rigor for ya Carol...........


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## terryl965 (Feb 3, 2009)

I see it everyday around me, so this means nothing to me anymore. Thanks Carol my TKD would not allow her to be a BB, lets see three times a week for an hour and two years later a BB. So 312 hours which is about 6.5 weeks at a job and she is a BB, throw in about 1/3 of the time stretching and you got what 4.7 weeks and a BB. At a real job you are barely there long enough to know where the bathroom is. 

I am glad her parents understand this NOT!!!!!:rofl:


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## Cirdan (Feb 3, 2009)

Yea giving people what they so stupidly want is good for business. 

Not for the arts tho.


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## Sylo (Feb 3, 2009)

My son is almost 2.. and when he is old enough to start taking classes (older than 5.. but we'll see how he progresses)He'll put in the work, AND the time.

There is no feasible reason why anyone this young should be this rank. ever.


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## searcher (Feb 3, 2009)

Don't give up on the style.   We have to do what we can to let people and parents know that what they here is not reasonable and is not how all schools are.   We need to produce high quality students at the proper rank and let the world see what true TKD is.


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## Aefibird (Feb 3, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Eh...what exactly are they researching there???




How best to extract money off the gullible I think. Certainly isn't researching TKD!! Well, not the TKD that I know anyway.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 3, 2009)

Honestly, I've given up caring about this.  TKD gets a bad wrap for its SD aspect.  It probably will from here on.  The only thing we can do to combat this is to continue to learn and teach the effective SD that TKD has to offer.  

It's just like drugs...it would be wonderful to get them off the street, but you have to be realistic at some point.  The streets will never be completely cleaned.  All anyone can do is to fight against them in every way possible.  But everyone should realize that this fight is *never ending.*

TKD is the same.  McDojangs are going to exist.  Period.  Crying and complaining isn't going to solve the issue.  The best thing we can do is to continue doing what we do everyday, which is to provide the option for students to learn *valid* SD through a *valid* cirriculum.

But, everyone should understand that this is *always* going to be an issue.


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## seasoned (Feb 3, 2009)

I think this is true in many MA. I know the thread is on TKD particularly, and that is to bad, but not an exclusive by no means.


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## CDKJudoka (Feb 3, 2009)

Wouldn't that be considered a POOM rank, not a DAN rank? They advertise as being a WTF and AAU school, which would mean that she has a Poom rank, not a dan.


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## hkfuie (Feb 3, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> http://www.eagletribune.com/punews/local_story_032012427.htmlY.K. Kim's TaeKwonDoe Research Institute in Lawrence.



What do they research?  TaeKwonDough!

I used to have a little student ~8y/o on ADHD meds.  Her guardians told me they were taking her out of my class so they could take her somewhere where she would get a BB in 2 years b/c...and they kept stressing this...it's an ACADEMY!  _That's_ why she can get her BB in two years bouncing off the ceiling, paying more attention to dust motes than instructon.  It's an ACADEMY!  

Alas...


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## searcher (Feb 3, 2009)

hkfuie said:


> What do they research? TaeKwonDough!


 

I think it is Tie Kuwon Doh!!!

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/0/0d/Butterfinger-karate.jpg


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## mozzandherb (Feb 3, 2009)

Well I got my BB in 3 years and I was 9 years old, so I guess I fall into the younger age bracket, I agree that some people do not deserve their BB, but I also see that there are a ton of adult BB who do not deserve their BB's either and that their are many kids who have their BB who deserve it more than the adult.  So the question I ask is where do we draw the line?


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## searcher (Feb 3, 2009)

mozzandherb said:


> I agree that some people do not deserve their BB, but I also see that there are a ton of adult BB who do not deserve their BB's either and that their are many kids who have their BB who deserve it more than the adult.


 

I see it all the time, when I am asked to sit on a testing board.   It is scary for me to see some of these peope testing for a rank, when they don't deserve the rank they currenty l have.   When I am there, they fail their test.


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## garrisons2 (Feb 3, 2009)

Interesting point.  So what should the standard be for adults?  and should age or other physical limitations play a mitigating factor.   Does the Kukkikwon  have a specific standard somewhere that I haven't seen?


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## Twin Fist (Feb 3, 2009)

no one under 15-16, and never less than 4 years is a good start



mozzandherb said:


> Well I got my BB in 3 years and I was 9 years old


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## Twin Fist (Feb 3, 2009)

yes they do, the ONE thing they do that i like

no one under 15 gets a dan rank

PERIOD



garrisons2 said:


> Interesting point.  So what should the standard be for adults?  and should age or other physical limitations play a mitigating factor.   Does the Kukkikwon  have a specific standard somewhere that I haven't seen?


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## garrisons2 (Feb 3, 2009)

true, except the common reference is Black Belt, not Poom or Dan.  so it's kind of like an asterisk


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## astrobiologist (Feb 3, 2009)

My first dan certificate was awarded to me when I was eight.  My second dan when I was eleven.  At that point in my life I was good at point fighting, par at breaking, and I was good at performing many forms, but I had no understanding of applications, and I wasn't analytical enough in my approach to martial arts.  

My understanding of the martial arts is much different now.  I don't regret my youthful advancement; it has definitely given me insight.  However, when I operate my own school some day I believe there will need to be either some differentiation between children's advanced degrees and adults' or I may consider setting an age limit.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 3, 2009)

I dont want to sound rude, but an 8 yr old dan rank is garbage, and a 11 yr old 2nd dan? 

thats worse.

not to belittle YOU, just the person that did that to you


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## astrobiologist (Feb 3, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I dont want to sound rude, but an 8 yr old dan rank is garbage, and a 11 yr old 2nd dan?
> 
> thats worse.
> 
> not to belittle YOU, just the person that did that to you


 
No worries mate, like I said it's a pretty tough one.  I don't regret having received them.  That's part of my history and it has been part of my drive to expose McDojang and Bullshido.  The school that I came from that gave me that 2nd dan at 11 is, in my opinion, guilty of a lot of that.  When I started at 5, my old instructor's son started too.  He's also 25 now and he is a 5th dan, pretty sure going on 6th.  Silliness, huh?   

BTW, In the past 14 years I've only come to 3rd dan, and that's where I feel I belong.  I've been teaching now for about 3 years, I have experience in other arts and have studied a lot of martial history and philosophy, and I can see children black belts and know what they're going through.  They don't know what the problem is that we're all discussing, they're just happy to be training.  Their parents and instructors are the problem; even more so the society that has allowed this to become the norm is the problem.


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## Natty (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm surprised as well that kids as young as 7 or 8 were given a Dan title. In both schools I have been in, children who have been awarded a black belt are given the title Go-Ma under the age of 10 then So-Yun until they are 15. Then they are allowed to test for their Dan title. Two years is too early to award a black belt. I would say three to four years. I am still in the process of working towards earning a black belt and I know it is not something that is just handed over. It is a learning process that takes a lot of discipline and determination.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 3, 2009)

Ohhh-kay... reading the interview I think I spotted the real gist of it all as to why the girl was so quick... this line right here. 



> Rayna: I want to learn kung fu and *add more belts to my collection*.



She just wants a collection of belts. When she gets one in Kung Fu (presumably WC) then she can move on to EPAK, and then Aikido, moving on to Silat and so forth. She can get a whole bunch by the time she graduates high-school. Then she can wear a "deadilest woman alive" badge. 

Wow... gotta sign her up for a reality show here quick. They'll make a fortune. 

Like Carol, I wouldn't dream of bashing TKD... I know it to be a legitimate MA and not the sad belt factories that many are turning it into. I have a lot of respect for true practioners of TKD. :asian: 
It's obvious that the girl's parents were not properly informed of things and they didn't do honest in depth research on what real TKD is. 

Articles like these will continue to crop up and will eventually encompass other arts.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 4, 2009)

There's McDojangs, McDojo, McCrappling, McMMA, etc...

It's not just TKD, although I think it's more prevalent in TKD because of the marketing scheme and business plan.  All this goes to show us is that we really need to take all "rank" with a grain of salt.  The whole idea that rank is ultimately a meaningful way of representing skill outside of the school it was awarded has been undermined.  Lets face it, the days when a black belt meant something are gone...and they ain't coming back.  So what now?

We have to change our thinking, IMO.  For me, "rank" is a representation of a relationship between student and teacher.  I think that if we continue the farce that it is something more, we will only get drawn farther into this black pit.  I rarely talk about my own rank or my experience any more.  If people ask, I'll tell them.  If not, I just show up and train and let my skill speak for itself.

I showed up at a Shotokan dojo the other day with a white belt on and started practicing with everyone.  In less then 30 seconds, everyone knew that I had a lot more experience then the stupid belt let on.


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## mozzandherb (Feb 4, 2009)

But, there are some kids who are geniouses whether it be in music, art or martial arts.  I think that if the person can contribute to the art and help others, then age does not matter.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 4, 2009)

Personally, I think that an adult who looks at a kiddie BB and compares it to themselves needs to take a step back and re-evaulate.  I know in certain organizations they require adults to bow to kiddieBBs and I think that does a lot to muddy the waters, but the fact remains, they aren't the same.  They never can be.  They never will be.  In reality, I'd really like to know how the presence of a kiddieBB in the world really diminishes your actual training.  For me, it just doesn't matter.


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## Carol (Feb 4, 2009)

mozzandherb said:


> But, there are some kids who are geniouses whether it be in music, art or martial arts.  I think that if the person can contribute to the art and help others, then age does not matter.



Not the same.   A talented child in martial arts may be talented for their age, but they do not wear adult gear, they do not spar adults, or grapple adults, or have to defeat adults.

A child prodigy in music is someone whose talent can easily compete with an adult, using the same instruments as an adult. 

An example:  young Vietnamese-American Wendy Vo.  She is a polyglot that speaks at least 11 languages.   Here she is at age 6, setting the house on fire playing Tico Tico - a song that WFMU described as "the tune that packs in more notes per measure than a scat singer on Dexedrine" :rofl:

Most adult organ players cannot play a Brazilian Samba with that much heart.  (She's now 8 years old and composing her own music).  

[yt]31m8IJ1uoB0[/yt]


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## miguksaram (Feb 4, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> no one under 15-16, and never less than 4 years is a good start


 
Why no less than 4 years? What is wrong with 3 years?  Why no less than 5 years or 8 years?

Why do you think 4 should be the minimum?


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## miguksaram (Feb 4, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Not the same. A talented child in martial arts may be talented for their age, but they do not wear adult gear, they do not spar adults, or grapple adults, or have to defeat adults.


 
Not always true. I know a couple of younger kids ranging 13-16 who do fight adults and do win.  So in essence they can be compared to the likes of the prodigy pianist or violinist of the same age group.


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## Steve (Feb 4, 2009)

So, I'm just gonna throw this out.  There are a lot of people saying that an adult black belt isn't the same as a kids black belt.  Well, maybe it _shouldn't_ be the same, but how many adult black belts are there who functionally as ill equipped as the 8 year old to effectively defend themselves?  

What I mean is, if we're talking about standards, shouldn't we start with the adults?


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## Twin Fist (Feb 4, 2009)

because IN MY EXPERIENCE, it takes the average person a minimum of 4 years to correctly learn how to move, kick, and punch.

sure there are people who just get it, who will achieve the required level of skill faster, and some who will take longer, but we are taking about average.

it isnt that it takes four years to learn the techniques, it is that it takes that long to learn how to move, to develop the balance, timing and focus required. 

that answer your question?




miguksaram said:


> Why no less than 4 years? What is wrong with 3 years?  Why no less than 5 years or 8 years?
> 
> Why do you think 4 should be the minimum?


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## Twin Fist (Feb 4, 2009)

god yes



stevebjj said:


> So, I'm just gonna throw this out.  There are a lot of people saying that an adult black belt isn't the same as a kids black belt.  Well, maybe it _shouldn't_ be the same, but how many adult black belts are there who functionally as ill equipped as the 8 year old to effectively defend themselves?
> 
> What I mean is, if we're talking about standards, shouldn't we start with the adults?


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## MA-Caver (Feb 4, 2009)

Child prodigy is one thing, they've a natural talent for it and all that. But me thinks most of the belt ranks are mainly for the parents who shell out the dough to pay for their children's *ahem* education in the MA and thus want something to "show for it". That the child sees themselves progressing in ranks is good for them too. 
A clear distinction must be made of course between the differences of a jr. BB and an full fledged BB held by an adult. The article stated the girl was a BB with no such distinction. Granted that news-media don't usually provide such differences. So she could be a Jr. BB or a tiny dragon or whatever that school chooses to call them. 
If that's the case then alright then, good for her and here's to looking for a great MA future.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Feb 4, 2009)

I hate to be a one upper but in Rancho Penasquitos, California, several years ago a 4 year old girl was given her Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do.
Her parents run a Sushi restaurant on Penasquitos Road just West of Interstate 15, It is called Sushi USA. They have a little shrine in the restaurant with news articles, and memorabilia of their daughters achievement. She is in High School now I believe, or possibly college.. I remember when that one happened, I was stuck between disgusted and laughter.

I also have to mention that when I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for a few years I went around and visited dozens and dozens of schools, and the one that I would say had the best fighters was a Tae Kwon Do school called Golden State Tae Kwon Do, with an instructor named Eddie Croft, who also happened to be a Championship Boxing contender.. who would have guessed.


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## exile (Feb 4, 2009)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I hate to be a one upper but in Rancho Penasquitos, several years ago a 4 year old girl was given her Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do.



Hell, what's the point of being on an Internet discussion board if you can't indulge the pleasure of one-upsmanship every so often! 



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Her parents run a Sushi restaurant on Penasquitos Road just West of Interstate 15, It is called Sushi USA. They have a little shrine in the restaurant with news articles, and memorabilia of their daughters achievement. She is in High School now I believe, or possibly college.. I remember when that one happened, I was stuck between disgusted and laughter.



So assuming the standard 'test for X dan X years after the test for X-1 dan', she should, at say 17yo, be getting ready to test for her 5th dan. Time marches on eh? . She'll have her 7th dan when she's 34... nothing like an early start, eh? 



LuckyKBoxer said:


> I also have to mention that when I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for a few years I went around and visited dozens and dozens of schools, and the one that I would say had the best fighters was a Tae Kwon Do school called Golden State Tae Kwon Do, with an instructor named Eddie Croft, who also happened to be a Championship Boxing contender.. who would have guessed.



No surprise there&#8212;boxers train for very close range fighting, which is where most streetfights happen to start, if a ton of research on what Pat McCarthy labelled 'habitual acts of violence' is on the money. Of all practitioners of combat activities, they seem to be the main ones who accept the unpleasant but realistic presmise that your attacker will be close in, and striking at your head and other high-valued targets with the intention of rendering you unconscious or dead, if possible.  If more TKD schools organized their curricula around that premise, as advocated by 'applied karate' advocates like Iain Abernethy, Geoff Thompson, Peter Consterdine and other high ranking karateka some of whom also happen to have extensive experience as professional bouncers, the nature of TKD training would, I'd predict, lead to a lot fewer BBs for practitioners who can't tied their own shoe laces yet, let alone the belt itself. I think the McDojang belt-mill phenomenon, while separate from, is still linked to the dilution of the TKD curriculum to the point where its roots in hardcore street defense have become completely lost in many schools.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Child prodigy is one thing, they've a natural talent for it and all that. But me thinks most of the belt ranks are mainly for the parents who shell out the dough to pay for their children's *ahem* education in the MA and thus want something to "show for it". That the child sees themselves progressing in ranks is good for them too.
> A clear distinction must be made of course between the differences of a jr. BB and an full fledged BB held by an adult. The article stated the girl was a BB with no such distinction. Granted that news-media don't usually provide such differences. So she could be a Jr. BB or a tiny dragon or whatever that school chooses to call them.
> If that's the case then alright then, good for her and here's to looking for a great MA future.


 
Agreed.

I think that's why alot of people don't agree with Jr. BB's, because the line can easily become fuzzy as to where the Jr. BB stops and the adult lower-rank training begins.  

If you set the transition at a certain age, then there may be certain kids who reach that age and just aren't ready to progress to the adult stage of training yet...not the adult black belt training, but the adult lower rank training.  If they haven't reached that level by that age, then they're not going to understand why the rules say that they can be promoted but are getting held back, or advanced at a lower rank.  Kids are still going to be kids.  They're not going to be mature enough to accept an unpopular decision...most of them, any way.

So, if they don't accept the decision the instructor has made to keep the kid at either a Jr. BB a while longer to to advance to adult training at a lower-than-usual rank, then the kid could possibly lose the drive to continue going, and drop out.  And that would negate the entire reason for having a Jr. BB in the first place...otherwise, the kids would be able to accept that they don't just attend class for a certain amount of time and get a BB...they would understand that a BB has to be earned, and that there is no set age to earn a BB, but earning a BB is not an easy task for an adult, and would be exponentially harder for a child.

And if that's the case, then why even waste the time and effort on having a Jr. BB rank?  Technically speaking, it's nothing more than a place-holder.

The issue here is that it is up to each instructor to determine when a person is ready to test for a BB, and it's up to the instructor and judges to determine if the person has earned the BB or not.  There are more and more instructors that keep popping up that are more interested in making a profit and keeping their students enrolled to pay the bills rather than holding a student back that hasn't earned the belt.

It's just going to keep happening.  There's no way to stop schools like this from promoting kids to blackbelt...and when I say kids, I mean kids that are too young to understand what they've worked for...and technically, that applies to kids and adults alike.  Crappy schools with crappy instruction is impossible to stop.  

All we can do is to provide quality instruction to those that want to learn, and spread the word.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 4, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> We have to change our thinking, IMO. For me, *"rank" is a representation of a relationship between student and teacher.* I think that if we continue the farce that it is something more, we will only get drawn farther into this black pit.


This is maybe the most illuminating thing I've seen yet on this long-debated topic.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 4, 2009)

It's been my contention for a long time that children and adults should have separate curriculum.  For karate based arts, post Itosu sensei's major changes to make karate safe for school children, this is easy.  The curriculum that most adults learn is really meant for children.  3K karate with extended distances, a focus on discipline and form, and a very safe and controlled form of sparring is based on the developmental needs of kids.  So, if you are earning a BB in this kind of system, even as an adult, you really are earning a kiddieBB.  

The difference between an adult's curriculum and a child's curriculum should be the difference between riding a bike and driving a car.  A six year old can learn how to ride a bike well, but you really need full maturity before you can tackle driving a car.

An adult's curriculum in SD is going to incorporate principles and techniques that kids shouldn't learn or have to worry about.  It's going to set a standard of rigor that children won't be able to meet.  It's going to have a depth and breadth that kids would be developmentally ready for.  Ideally, a the earliest a "kid" should start in an adult's curriculum is early to middle teens...and that is IF the CHILD shows an incredible amount of maturity.  

I think of my Arnis training as a benchmark for this.  The first day, my teacher put a knife in my hand and showed me how to kill with it.  Are you going to teach THAT to a five year old?


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## AMP-RYU (Feb 4, 2009)

carol kaur said:


> dang. It took her until she was 7?
> 
> A 6 year old that trains at a school near my mom already has her 2nd dan in tkd.
> 
> ...


ata!!!!!!!


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## searcher (Feb 4, 2009)

exile-now I am going to have to start my kids training while they are still in diapers.


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## exile (Feb 4, 2009)

searcher said:


> exile-now I am going to have to start my kids training while they are still in diapers.



Well, if you want 'em to be able to reach ninth dan while they're still young enough for them to invite their fraternity brothers/sorority sisters to the promotion ceremony, you got no choice!


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## miguksaram (Feb 4, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> because IN MY EXPERIENCE, it takes the average person a minimum of 4 years to correctly learn how to move, kick, and punch.
> 
> sure there are people who just get it, who will achieve the required level of skill faster, and some who will take longer, but we are taking about average.
> 
> ...


 
Yes it does thank you. I just wanted an expansion to the answer because I have seen so many people place time limits, with no actualy reason outside of "That's how long it took me".  So it is good to get more input on why one would impose a minimum time limit.


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## miguksaram (Feb 4, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Child prodigy is one thing, they've a natural talent for it and all that. But me thinks most of the belt ranks are mainly for the parents who shell out the dough to pay for their children's *ahem* education in the MA and thus want something to "show for it". That the child sees themselves progressing in ranks is good for them too.


 
Now you have hit upon something.  In modern society, at least in the US, we are always looking for instant gratification.  Junior gets a good grade he gets a cookie.  We push that same social philosophy on MA as well.  Junior does a front kick, he gets a stripe.  So perhaps one of the problems can be linked to our social outlook in general.  I know we are talking TKD right now, but it is not the only art which pulls out 2 year BB's and 8 year old BB's.  Many schools do this as a way to stay in business.  Keep your customer happy or they go to a place that will.  Thoughts?


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## Twin Fist (Feb 4, 2009)

a time frame without a good and valid reason why is silly.


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## miguksaram (Feb 4, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> a time frame without a good and valid reason why is silly.


I agree.


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## KELLYG (Feb 4, 2009)

From a personal stand point I would have liked to start when I was a child verses as an adult.  There have been people that have started early and maintained there training throughout there lives, some have posted on this thread and on this forum. 

 Is it right or wrong to have an year old black belt.  Not for me to say.  Depends on the year old.  I have seen a few, and the material and testing requirements are identical to the adults, they even test with the adults. They are developing life long good habits, and are learning something that will stay with them forever.  This training in my opinion helps to produce productive members of society.

 Instead of comparing them to adults.  Compare them to people their same age.  I would never dare to compare my skill set at 44 to a 14 to 18 year old.  nor would I expect an 14 to 18 year old to have the world experiance to understand what I know from my training.


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## FearlessFreep (Feb 4, 2009)

How's this

http://freeport.nassauguardian.net/national_local/293720930208233.php



> When the rape trial of Mark Marvin Bethel got under way in Supreme Court yesterday, a feisty 83-year-old Arizona woman told of her harrowing ordeal with the man she trusted two years ago.
> 
> During her emotional testimony, which lasted the better part of the afternoon, the tae kwon do black belt said she was forced to use the skills she had honed to fend off her violator on that fateful July night back in 2007.
> ...


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## Steve (Feb 4, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Now you have hit upon something.  In modern society, at least in the US, we are always looking for instant gratification.  Junior gets a good grade he gets a cookie.  We push that same social philosophy on MA as well.  Junior does a front kick, he gets a stripe.  So perhaps one of the problems can be linked to our social outlook in general.  I know we are talking TKD right now, but it is not the only art which pulls out 2 year BB's and 8 year old BB's.  Many schools do this as a way to stay in business.  Keep your customer happy or they go to a place that will.  Thoughts?


just a couple of things.  First, I personally don't have any problems rewarding junior for getting good grades or a well done front kick.  The reward has to be reasonable so that it's not out of proportion to the act and it shouldn't be compulsory.  In other words, a new car for good grades might be out of proportion and if the kid expects anything at all, they'll be sorely dissappointed.

Of course, the real problem is rewarding half-assed behavior, which seems to often be the case.


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## mozzandherb (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree we cannot compare kid BB to adult BB, the only difference when I did my BB test at age 9 was in the board breaking.  Obviously I couldn't break as many boards as the adults, but does this disqualify that I passed my test and performed all the necessary requirements??  
Let me ask the OP this.  Do you believe that 20 year olds should have a 4th dan?  Or a 16 year old having a 3rd dan?
There will always be kid BB in TKD, I don't think it makes our art wrong to have kid BB


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## Twin Fist (Feb 5, 2009)

No Dan ranks under 15

so no, i dont think a 16 yr old should have a 3rd, or a 20 year old a 4th


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## Makalakumu (Feb 5, 2009)

How can you be a "master" of anything at 20 years old?

lol


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## miguksaram (Feb 5, 2009)

Question for the majority of you.  How old were you when you started martial arts and when did you get your first black belt.  I started when I was 10 but I didn't get my BB until I was 17.  This we due to moving and changing systems.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 5, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Question for the majority of you. How old were you when you started martial arts and when did you get your first black belt. I started when I was 10 but I didn't get my BB until I was 17. This we due to moving and changing systems.


 
I was 12 when I started in TKD, and was 16 when I earned my 1st dan...and that was going to multiple classes a day, 4 times a week, over the course of 4 years.

I have another question to pose to everyone:

If the issue that everyone is having is that blackbelts are being promoted too young, don't deserve their belts, etc...

What can be done, realistically, to preven this?


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## Makalakumu (Feb 5, 2009)

Not much.  You can shop at a school where you think the standards are high and/or you can decide to set the standards high yourself.


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## exile (Feb 5, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Question for the majority of you.  How old were you when you started martial arts and when did you get your first black belt.  I started when I was 10 but I didn't get my BB until I was 17.  This we due to moving and changing systems.



Started at 55, BB at 61. It didn't _feel_ as long as six years ought to feel, but that's what the numbers say... :idunno:


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## miguksaram (Feb 5, 2009)

exile said:


> Started at 55, BB at 61. It didn't _feel_ as long as six years ought to feel, but that's what the numbers say... :idunno:


When I first read your reply I thought it said "...that's what the nurses say." ha.ha.ha.ha...

That is cool to see that you started later in life and kept with it.


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## phatbway (Feb 5, 2009)

Nothing's wrong with "TKD" it's just the wrong people in it that is wrong


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## phatbway (Feb 5, 2009)

well let's see........my son is 10, we've been studying together for the last 20 months, we both just earned our Purple belts together. are you saying that my son cannot be a BB within a reasonable..........let's say.........12 months? We don't miss classes just to let you know. are you saying he cannot achive his BB @ 11?


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## rchurch (Feb 5, 2009)

There is a school near me that has a 3rd degree BB Instructor - and she's 10 years old!  I wish I had the newspaper article about her so I could post it, but it talks about how they don't spar, they just do forms.  We consider it more of a dance studio than a MA school.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 5, 2009)

yes that is what i am saying

for one thing

BB takes a MINIMUM of 36-48 months of hard core training to even get CLOSE, and thats in a simple system like TKD, in a complex system like Aikido or Kenpo, it takes LONGER. (And you people relax, you know as well as I do that on the complexity scale of martial arts, TKD is on the low end.)

you have been training for 20 months, add 12 to that, thats only 32 months

you have got to be a superstar, and i mean like "get that guy an agent, he needs to be in movies" superstar to get BB level skills in just 32 months, and NO 10 year old is a superstar.

for another thing, BB is also a test a MATURITY, and no 10 year old is mature.

sorry, hate to break it to you, but BB is supposed to mean something

Now this isnt to say that he cant earn a Jr Black, if he has the proper skill level, but thats not the same thing as a 1st Dan Black Belt

If your school reguarly promotes people to black with LESS than3 years training, well, how to say this nicely?

I cant say it nicely.  




phatbway said:


> well let's see........my son is 10, we've been studying together for the last 20 months, we both just earned our Purple belts together. are you saying that my son cannot be a BB within a reasonable..........let's say.........12 months? We don't miss classes just to let you know. are you saying he cannot achive his BB @ 11?


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## exile (Feb 5, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> When I first read your reply I thought it said "...that's what the nurses say." ha.ha.ha.ha...



It's actually what the _orderlies_ say. No, but seriously...  



miguksaram said:


> That is cool to see that you started later in life and kept with it.



That's one of the few great things about doing something when you're, ahem, of a certain age. You wind up taking a long view of it because you've learned by that point that nothing good is going to come to you instantly, or even very soon; that the really good stuff only comes later. People who get into things too young tend I think to get frustrated easily when they find out that there are a _lot_ of layers to the onion, and you're not really 'there' until you get to the innermost one....



rchurch said:


> There is a school near me that has *a 3rd degree BB Instructor - and she's 10 years old! * I wish I had the newspaper article about her so I could post it, but it talks about how they don't spar, they just do forms.  We consider it more of a dance studio than a MA school.



I'm seeking my jaw at the moment... have you seen it? It's on the floor here somewhere...  :jaw-dropping:


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## terryl965 (Feb 5, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Question for the majority of you. How old were you when you started martial arts and when did you get your first black belt. I started when I was 10 but I didn't get my BB until I was 17. This we due to moving and changing systems.


 
I started when I was about two, remember my father was an instructor, I recieved my first BB at the age of 17 in Okinawa Karate. It took me about 4 years to get a TKD BB and that was still with all my training. My instructor let me wear amy BB but was sure to tell everyone that I was this color inside his school. The only was I fought the BB level guys because was a BB you can never go and fight a beginning and I agree with that.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yes that is what i am saying
> 
> for one thing
> 
> ...


 
Read and reread the parts that I have bolded in this quote.

Read it again.

This pretty much sums it up.  I still don't think it's *as* much about the time spent working for the blackbelt rank, as it is about the amount of *work* that is put in for the blackbelt rank.  This usually does take around 4 years for the average person with other things going on in their lives, and typically less long for students who are able to dedicate entire days at a time, multiple times a week.  But the fact remains that alot, alot, alot of blood and sweat has to go into earning a blackbelt.

It would disturb me greatly to see a 10 or 11 year old bleeding and sweating that much to earn a rank.

That being said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a Jr. Blackbelt rank...it means that the student has worked very hard to earn a blackbelt *for their maturity level*.  But a 1st dan requires more physical, mental, and emotional maturity than a child could possibly have.  

It should not be about the rank.  It should be about the training and ability of the student.  It's just like anything else:  if you train hard, the rank will come.  If you train for the rank, you'll find yourself waiting longer than you hoped to wait.


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## miguksaram (Feb 6, 2009)

exile said:


> People who get into things too young tend I think to get frustrated easily when they find out that there are a _lot_ of layers to the onion, and you're not really 'there' until you get to the innermost one....


 
Now here is something that brings up another point.  Out of all these young black belts, how many stay in the art past a year or two after receiving their BB?  It has been my experience that many of them drop out not too long after they earn it.

I have spoken to co-workers of mine who have told me "Oh my kid did martial arts a couple of years ago.  He got his black belt.  Now he plays (place sport name here)" 

Thoughts?


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## kidswarrior (Feb 6, 2009)

exile said:


> It's actually what the _orderlies_ say. No, but seriously...


 At first reading, thought this said, that's what the ordinals say. 



> That's one of the few great things about doing something when you're, ahem, of a certain age.


Indeed.:yoda:



> You wind up taking a long view of it because you've learned by that point that nothing good is going to come to you instantly, or even very soon; that the really good stuff only comes later. People who get into things too young tend I think to get frustrated easily when they find out that there are a _lot_ of layers to the onion, and you're not really 'there' until you get to the innermost one....


 Too true, my _old _friend...couldn't resist.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 6, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Now here is something that brings up another point. Out of all these young black belts, how many stay in the art past a year or two after receiving their BB? It has been my experience that many of them drop out not too long after they earn it.
> 
> I have spoken to co-workers of mine who have told me "Oh my kid did martial arts a couple of years ago. He got his black belt. Now he plays (place sport name here)"
> 
> Thoughts?


 
Depends on their reasons for attending class.  If they're still in highschool and earned their blackbelt and quit, maybe it could have something to do with outside factors...college, etc.  Or maybe they joined for the sport aspect of it, and once they achieved their goal of earning a blackbelt, decided it was time to move on to another goal.

Or, maybe they didn't want to attend martial arts class at all, and it was more of living up to their parent's expectations than it was a decision that they made themselves.

Whatever the reason, if someone actually sticks it out long enough to become blackbelt, then more power to them.  Even with the ATA 2 year blackbelt standard, for alot of people, sticking with something for 2 years is a huge accomplishment in and of itself.

I don't think it matters so much as to the fact *that* they quit, but more of *why* the quit, and/or *why* they were involved to begin with.


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## KELLYG (Feb 6, 2009)

Of all people receiving black belt young or old what is the attrition rate in your school?


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## clfsean (Feb 6, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> I was 12 when I started in TKD, and was 16 when I earned my 1st dan...and that was going to multiple classes a day, 4 times a week, over the course of 4 years.



Same here except I started at 11, completed the requirements for black at 15 & had to wait the extra year. Even then it wasn't on my 16th birthday. It was several months into it before I ever came up for it. This included all my forms daily, teaching duties, sparring, etc... during this time where nothing new was taught to me & nothing was offered to be taught. It was a "test" to see if I'd wait it out to meet the school req's. I was the first one that did in my school.



BrandonLucas said:


> I have another question to pose to everyone:
> 
> If the issue that everyone is having is that blackbelts are being promoted too young, don't deserve their belts, etc...
> 
> What can be done, realistically, to preven this?



Nothing. Realistically, nothing at all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> No Dan ranks under 15
> 
> so no, i dont think a 16 yr old should have a 3rd, or a 20 year old a 4th


TF, you really don't want the answer to this, but since the post is about what is wrong with TKD, I'm going to give it anyway.  If you're a third poom at, say thirteen, when you're sixteen and it is time for the next testing (generally from 3rd degree it is three years, be it poom or dan), if you pass, guess what?  You're fourth dan.

Also, if your fourth poom, when you turn sixteen, all the school owner has to do is fill out some paperwork and mail it to the KKW and guess what?

It's Morphin' time!!

Your fourth *poom* yells out "Dan-o-saurus!" and morphs into a fourth *dan*.

So actually, one could be fourth dan by sixteen.  And if they have been fourth poom since they were thirteen (mathmatically possible if a child has a first poom at seven), then they can test for *fifth dan* at seventeen, which would technically make them a master.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (Feb 6, 2009)

and that's a bunch of crap

poom ranks should start over at 1st Dan when they come of age.

Thats the way I do it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> and that's a bunch of crap
> 
> poom ranks should start over at 1st Dan when they come of age.
> 
> Thats the way I do it.


Don't know if I'd make them start over completely, but I do feel that they need to take and pass an adult test in order to qualify their pooms to dans, and no closer together than a year between.

True, that still leads to a twenty year old fourth dan, but it beats the tar out of just converting their ranks which they achieved at kiddie tests.

Daniel


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## Gizmo (Feb 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Also, if your fourth poom, when you turn sixteen, all the school owner has to do is fill out some paperwork and mail it to the KKW and guess what?
> 
> It's Morphin' time!!
> 
> Your fourth *poom* yells out "Dan-o-saurus!" and morphs into a fourth *dan*.



I believe the "conversion age" for 4th Poom is 18, not 15.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> TF, you really don't want the answer to this, but since the post is about what is wrong with TKD, I'm going to give it anyway. If you're a third poom at, say thirteen, when you're sixteen and it is time for the next testing (generally from 3rd degree it is three years, be it poom or dan), if you pass, guess what? You're fourth dan.
> 
> Also, if your fourth poom, when you turn sixteen, all the school owner has to do is fill out some paperwork and mail it to the KKW and guess what?
> 
> ...


 
I find it troubling that, no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to morph.

Maybe I'm not saying the catch phrase right or something....


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## igillman (Feb 6, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> I find it troubling that, no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to morph.
> 
> Maybe I'm not saying the catch phrase right or something....



Did you pay the $$$'s to morph?


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 6, 2009)

igillman said:


> Did you pay the $$$'s to morph?


 
DOH!! :duh:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> I find it troubling that, no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to morph.
> 
> Maybe I'm not saying the catch phrase right or something....


Gotta be chosen by Zordon.  He's got the power coins.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

Gizmo said:


> I believe the "conversion age" for 4th Poom is 18, not 15.


Not sure on that, but if you're correct, that means fifth dan by 22.  

Now, if the 22 year old is incredibly mature and skilled to the level of 5th dan, that combined with being in the physical prime of life would make for an incredible practitioner.  But such people are the rare exception, not the rule.  

Daniel


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 6, 2009)

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01

Go to article 8 and it list the age/time requirements.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks, Brad!  18 for fourth it is.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 6, 2009)

Brad Dunne said:


> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01
> 
> Go to article 8 and it list the age/time requirements.


 
No disrespect intended with this post...but...

That link has a lot to do with what is wrong with TKD.

TKD is a martial art. It doesn't require rules to govern it. It makes about as much sense to write that many rules and regulations for eating a salad.

When I started TKD, I was handed 2 sheets of paper. On those sheets of paper were:

instructions on how to tie my belt
what each rank was and what it signified
each form, what rank it belonged to, and the definitions of each form
how to count to 10 in Korean
the most commonly used Korean terms used in TKD and their translations
the tenets of TKD, and the student oath

No articles. No fine print. No lawyer talk.

Like I have said before, orgs exist for the benefit of the ego. No other reason. 

It can be argued that orgs can help form unity in a martial art...but...it was understood what forms coincide with which ranks for a long time...and it's that way with other TMA's as well....we don't need an org to tell us that. Things didn't start changing until orgs started messing with stuff...and technically, when the martial art changes as much as this one has *because *of the orgs, it ceases to be the original martial art.

It can be argued that orgs can set an age limit on who earns what ranks...but...shouldn't that decision be up to the instructor? And, if we're seeing 7 year old 3rd dans, what does that tell us about the instructor? So, if the expectations of a blackbelt are understood *from the start* by everyone, and if TKD instruction is passed from instructor to student, and the instructor decides when the student is ready to become a teacher, then we shouldn't have the kiddie blackbelt problem that we do now. So exactly *how* is an organization that would allow someone like me, who is not affiliated with any organization at all, to write a resume of my rank and achievements and receive their certification, their seal of approval, all without ever actually *seeing* me, going to help *unify* anything??

And people wonder why TKD is laughed at....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> http://www.eagletribune.com/punews/local_story_032012427.html
> 
> Methuen 7-year-old earns black belt in Taekwondo
> 
> ...


Not only ...

WTF!?!?!?!?!?!
But also...
KKW!?!?!?!?!?!
and...
ATA!?!?!?!?!?!

Daniel


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## exile (Feb 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not only ...
> 
> WTF!?!?!?!?!?!
> But also...
> ...



:lfao:


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## Aefibird (Feb 7, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not only ...
> 
> WTF!?!?!?!?!?!
> But also...
> ...



Surely a contender for post of the year... and it's only February!!  :lfao:


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