# Sanshou/Sanda



## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2006)

Sanshou/Sanda is a product of the PLA (People's Liberation Army) of China. During the 1960s after extensive study by the 
Chinese government of the old Chinese styles of fighting (Kung Fu) and then combining those techniques which they thought 
were best with a modern view of fighting and combat they produced Sanshou (Qinna Gedou). It is based on realistic fighting 
ability and not the performance of elaborate forms. This is the origin of the Military version of Sanshou and all others come 
from this root.

Sanshou (In Chinese means: free hand) or Sanda (In Chinese means: free fighting) Sanshou/Sanda is composed of different 
aspects of traditional Chinese fighting systems. It is made up of Kung Fu (Quan Fa), Qinna, boxing, kick boxing and Shuai 
jiao. There are 4 version of Sanda or Sanshou in China, Military (Qinna Gedou), Police, Civilian and Sport. 

Military, Police and Civilian Sanshou training involves training/practicing various punches, kicks, locks, chokes, throws, 
grappling, wrestling, ground fighting as well as weapon defense drills, 2 person drills and sparring. There are no patterns 
or formal stances, and no qigong exercises. 

In Sanshou for sport (Chinese kick boxing) there are certain techniques that are not permitted in the ring during a sanshou 
competition these techniques are elbow strikes, choke holds and joint locks. Also in a Sanshou competition it is possible to 
defeat an opponent by moving him out of the ring. Training for Sport Sanshou is very similar to kickboxing training, except 
they also include extensive drilling on throws and sweeps.


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## crushing (Sep 1, 2006)

Intersting background and information, thank you.

I've seen few 'fights' (I think they were ISKA) using Sanshou rules on ESPN2.  I think they all involved Cung Le throwing or sweeping some poor guy to the canvas over and over and over.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2007)

Slight correction needed here

Actually you can put Sanda into 2 categories Military/Police and Civilian/Sport. 

My apologies for the error


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## JBrainard (Mar 19, 2007)

crushing said:


> I've seen few 'fights' (I think they were ISKA) using Sanshou rules on ESPN2. I think they all involved Cung Le throwing or sweeping some poor guy to the canvas over and over and over.


 
Yeah, you kinda have to feel sorry for the people who fight Cung Le. He pretty much owns sport Sanshou. Although, last time I checked, he's coaching now instead of fighting.


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## tiktok86 (Mar 19, 2007)

Cung Le is an awesome fighter to watch...very skilled.  The rules of Sanshou are very similar to the rules that my school fights under, KuoShu.  Fighting on the elevated Lei Tai (platform, no ropes), full-contact fighting that is broken up when it goes to the ground.  Only difference that I can see is that KuoShu rules allow knees and elbows, as well as joint locks (although since the whistle is blown once a competitor goes to the ground, you never see it happen).  Deliberate strikes to the back of the head and knees/groin/throat are not allowed.

Thanks for the background Xue Sheng!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2007)

JBrainard said:


> Yeah, you kinda have to feel sorry for the people who fight Cung Le. He pretty much owns sport Sanshou. Although, last time I checked, he's coaching now instead of fighting.


 
He was also doing the MMA thing for a while too, but I haven't been following it lately. But you are right he did pretty much own Sanshou. Cung Le is an awesome fighter.



tiktok86 said:


> Cung Le is an awesome fighter to watch...very skilled. The rules of Sanshou are very similar to the rules that my school fights under, KuoShu. Fighting on the elevated Lei Tai (platform, no ropes), full-contact fighting that is broken up when it goes to the ground. Only difference that I can see is that KuoShu rules allow knees and elbows, as well as joint locks (although since the whistle is blown once a competitor goes to the ground, you never see it happen). Deliberate strikes to the back of the head and knees/groin/throat are not allowed.
> 
> Thanks for the background Xue Sheng!


 
Cool, do I see another Sanshou guy on MT?

I have been looking for the various rules of Sanshou matches just to compare. I train the military/Police version so I am not familiar with the rules but I would like to see them one of these days. It is my understanding that on Mainland China the rules are a little different, basically you win by throwing your opponent out of the ring or by submission I think, but I could be wrong here.


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## tiktok86 (Mar 19, 2007)

At the tournaments my school competes in, the fight is not won by throwing the opponent off of the Lei Tai but rather by points.  5 judges (excluding the ref) who watch the fight and keep track of points for an overall score.  1 point for clear hard strike contact (punch, kick, knee, elbow, etc) or for a throw where the "thrower" lands on top.  2 points for a clean throw where the thrower keeps on his feet.  2 points for a kick or punch that knocks the opponent down.  3 points for getting the opponent off of the Lei Tai platform.  1 point deduction for losing balance.

3 rounds, 1.5 to 2.5 minutes each, winner is best of 3.  Equipment permitted is gloves (fingerless), cup, shoes (lightweight, but if one person fights barefoot then both must), and headgear.  The headgear is pretty light, with a plastic grill in the face...mostly prevents damage to the ears and face.  

I've personally trained and fought KuoShu, but was never all that great.    My wife, on the other end, has gotten quite skilled having fought in 5 tournament thus far.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2007)

I have not fought any tournaments, although I am thinking about it (even though I am a bit old for it). I train the police/military version and the very first thing my Sifu said to me was "I Know nothing about sport Sanda"

But I am rather interested in the sports side of it and I might just try a match one of these days (One reason I am interested in the rules), that or maybe train it a bit the next time I'm in Beijing. 

Glad to ahve another Sanda guy on MT, Welcome.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 19, 2007)

This short treatise was very interesting. Wanted to make one qualifying note though. The Sanshou you are speaking about is not the same as Kung Fu San Soo, which was introduced in America by Jimmy H Woo (Chin Siu Dek). Jimmy arrived in the states probably in the 1920s (depending on whether one believes a BD of 1906 or not), and was by most accounts an illegal immigrant (though he kept this secret virtualy his whole life). He opened a commercial studio in El Monte, California in 1962, and taught his Art--which is not adaptable to sport--into his upper 70s.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 20, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> This short treatise was very interesting. Wanted to make one qualifying note though. The Sanshou you are speaking about is not the same as Kung Fu San Soo, which was introduced in America by Jimmy H Woo (Chin Siu Dek). Jimmy arrived in the states probably in the 1920s (depending on whether one believes a BD of 1906 or not), and was by most accounts an illegal immigrant (though he kept this secret virtualy his whole life). He opened a commercial studio in El Monte, California in 1962, and taught his Art--which is not adaptable to sport--into his upper 70s.


 
Yes that is very true but did I miss something in the post previously that mentioned San soo?

*EDIT*:

Now that I think about it, whether or not previously mentioned it is a good point to make. I have been in discussions before where people have confused the 2 - Thanks


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 14, 2007)

I have to throw in my two &#20803; here...

     1) The term Sanda is much older than the 1960s. It basically means free fighting and all forms of CMA should have that. The Sanda that you see today actually began to develop around 1914 in Nanjing, while it hasn't changed much after the 1960s.

     2) I think that you are confusing the term Qinna Gedou with Qindiquan. Qinna Gedou is a new system that was developed by pooling together Qinna techniques from various different styles around China. Qindiquan is what most Wujing (Military police) study. It can be translated as Catch Your Enemy Fist, whereas Qinna Gedou means Qinna Combat. 

     3) And neither of those two are Sanda. They are what they are.

     4) Sanda was also heavily influenced by WMA (Not Womens' Basketball Association!), especially that of Russia.

     5) There are "forms/patterns" in Sanda, but they are very short. Mabubiangongbu chongquan and Tantui Chongquan come to mind first. These are foundation exercises and are trained rigourously. Also, most Sanda practitioners "cross-train" in Taolu (forms).

     6) The term Sanshou is rarely used in China, which is where Sanda is from.

     7) Most (If not all) Sanda instructors will tell you that the reason that they don't practise Qinna is not because it's too deadly, but because compared to Ti (Kick), Da (Strike), and Shuai (+jiao) Na (Qin+) has little (If any) use. I literaly got my **** kicked every day until I changed my mind about that so take it from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. A new student came in last week talking about Neijiagong (Internal MA) and its AWESOME POWER. My Shifu only said one word: "&#26469;" (Lai). That means "come", as in come here and try it. He is not egotistical at all. He has a policy. Talking is useless so if we can use our ideas/interpretations on him (Which we can't at this stage) then we can continue to use them on the streets.

     I hope that cleared some things up.  Anyone is welcome to come here and train with us.

     - Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I have to throw in my two &#20803; here...
> 
> 1) The term Sanda is much older than the 1960s. It basically means free fighting and all forms of CMA should have that. The Sanda that you see today actually began to develop around 1914 in Nanjing, while it hasn't changed much after the 1960s.


 
Yes I know and I didn't know that it began in 1914, thanks



MaartenSFS said:


> 2) I think that you are confusing the term Qinna Gedou with Qindiquan. Qinna Gedou is a new system that was developed by pooling together Qinna techniques from various different styles around China. Qindiquan is what most Wujing (Military police) study. It can be translated as Catch Your Enemy Fist, whereas Qinna Gedou means Qinna Combat.


 
Yup, I found that out after I made the original post, thanks for the clarification



MaartenSFS said:


> 4) Sanda was also heavily influenced by WMA (Not Womens' Basketball Association!), especially that of Russia.


 
Didn't know that but not surprised to hear it, particularly based on the relationship Russia and China had at one point. 

I am however glad to hear that Woman's Basketball had nothing to do with it. I was never to good at Basketball 



MaartenSFS said:


> 5) There are "forms/patterns" in Sanda, but they are very short. Mabubiangongbu chongquan and Tantui Chongquan come to mind first. These are foundation exercises and are trained rigourously. Also, most Sanda practitioners "cross-train" in Taolu (forms).


 
Have not got to any forms/patterns yet but also I am not surprised to hear this. I also know my Sifu has cross-trained in other styles, not exactly sure which though. 



MaartenSFS said:


> 6) The term Sanshou is rarely used in China, which is where Sanda is from.


 
Yes and no, but more yes than no. My Sifu never calls it Sanshou always Sanda. However in Beijing it seems many use the term Sanshou. But then Beijing, although a large city, is really only a small part of China. 



MaartenSFS said:


> 7) Most (If not all) Sanda instructors will tell you that the reason that they don't practise Qinna is not because it's too deadly, but because compared to Ti (Kick), Da (Strike), and Shuai (+jiao) Na (Qin+) has little (If any) use. I literaly got my **** kicked every day until I changed my mind about that so take it from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. A new student came in last week talking about Neijiagong (Internal MA) and its AWESOME POWER. My Shifu only said one word: "&#26469;" (Lai). That means "come", as in come here and try it. He is not egotistical at all. He has a policy. Talking is useless so if we can use our ideas/interpretations on him (Which we can't at this stage) then we can continue to use them on the streets.
> 
> I hope that cleared some things up.  Anyone is welcome to come here and train with us.
> 
> - Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker


 
Thanks. I am fairly new to Sanda training, but so far it is great. My Sifu appears to not be egotistical at all either, which I cannot say for all Sifus I have studied with over the years in other styles. He does teach at least some Qinna but he is, so far, more focused on had strikes and kicks. He is from the (WAY) North of China so I am not sure if that makes any difference as to what would be taught or not. 

As to the awesome power of internal styles. I have trained mostly internal styles. Prior to Sanda (Taiji and Xingyi mainly) and I would not be crazy enough to walk into any school with an attitude such as that. It is a great way to get your butt kicked.

I knew my Sifu for a while before I ever knew he trained Sanda, I always had the feeling that I did not want to challenge him to a fight however (even with my AWSOME POWERS of INTERNAL CMA). Our offices are fairly close so we go for walks at lunch from time to time and on one of these walks he started telling me about Sanda and how long he has trained and why he does not open a school and why he is so choosy about who he will even talk to about it. And then asked me if I wanted to learn, I said yes and he began to make me do a whole lot of basic training, pull ups, sit ups, etc. Basic palm strike training basic kicking and of course stretching. 

We are in a bit of a hiatus right now while I make a decision about my training that he has told me I need to make and after that depending on the decision it will be likely back to painful training outside in all kinds of weather as usual.

If I may ask a question, is your Sifu big on hitting very hard objects for training strikes? I have joked about this way to much here on MT and since realizing that I have toned it down a bit, but my Sifu is really big on hitting trees and I do see where that will certainly train you how to hit and condition your feet, hands, forearms, legs, etc to be able to hit hard, I was just wondering if that was common to Sanda training


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 14, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am however glad to hear that Woman's Basketball had nothing to do with it. I was never to good at Basketball


 
     Eh... Me too. I mostly hate basketball because everyone feels that I should play it because I'm tall. And because I suck at it.





Xue Sheng said:


> Yes and no, but more yes than no. My Sifu never calls it Sanshou always Sanda. However in Beijing it seems many use the term Sanshou. But then Beijing, although a large city, is really only a small part of China.


 
     I'm surprised about Beijing. I thought the term Sanshou was only used in the Guangdong area in southern China, but I imagine it has to do with Beijing being more international.



Xue Sheng said:


> Thanks. I am fairly new to Sanda training, but so far it is great. My Sifu appears to not be egotistical at all either, which I cannot say for all Sifus I have studied with over the years in other styles. He does teach at least some Qinna but he is, so far, more focused on had strikes and kicks. He is from the (WAY) North of China so I am not sure if that makes any difference as to what would be taught or not.


 
Good. 99% of MA instructors in China are aresholes. I have met and trained with my fair share, but will never again. I don't think that it matters where your instructor is from so much as what he was taught and his own interpretation. Sanda is more like a blanket term and every instructor will have their own take on it. Some are better with hands, legs, shuaijiao... Some are well rounded. Some even mix in IMA principles.



Xue Sheng said:


> As to the awesome power of internal styles. I have trained mostly internal styles. Prior to Sanda (Taiji and Xingyi mainly) and I would not be crazy enough to walk into any school with an attitude such as that. It is a great way to get your butt kicked.


 
     My point was not that they are useless, just that many of their practitioners have the belief that they are invincible because...... Most of them could not use what they have learned in combat. Moreover.. there are some things that are inherently flawed in the IMA. For example, IMA combat principles are FAR more important than the actual techniques that are learnt. Taiji principles can be applied VERY WELL to Shuaijiao, but using the actual techniques will most likely get your **** shuai-ed.



Xue Sheng said:


> I knew my Sifu for a while before I ever knew he trained Sanda, I always had the feeling that I did not want to challenge him to a fight however (even with my AWSOME POWERS of INTERNAL CMA). Our offices are fairly close so we go for walks at lunch from time to time and on one of these walks he started telling me about Sanda and how long he has trained and why he does not open a school and why he is so choosy about who he will even talk to about it. And then asked me if I wanted to learn, I said yes and he began to make me do a whole lot of basic training, pull ups, sit ups, etc. Basic palm strike training basic kicking and of course stretching.


 
     Palm strikes? Do you mean punches? As far as I know Sanda teaches no palm strikes unless it is an open hand Baiquan (More or less like a hook punch), which I like to use as it minimises damage to the hand.





Xue Sheng said:


> We are in a bit of a hiatus right now while I make a decision about my training that he has told me I need to make and after that depending on the decision it will be likely back to painful training outside in all kinds of weather as usual.


 
     You should try training here. In the winter it can be zero degrees (C) - INSIDE. In the summer it gets over 40 degrees (C). Both are like training in the bowels of Hell. My Shifu also shows no mercy to me (I can't stand the temperature extremes).



Xue Sheng said:


> If I may ask a question, is your Sifu big on hitting very hard objects for training strikes? I have joked about this way to much here on MT and since realizing that I have toned it down a bit, but my Sifu is really big on hitting trees and I do see where that will certainly train you how to hit and condition your feet, hands, forearms, legs, etc to be able to hit hard, I was just wondering if that was common to Sanda training


 
     While this type of training is common, my Shifu does not advocate it. We train terrible low stances and use a weight-lifting machine to build up leg strength. We kick heavy bags and pads to test our speed and strength. We kick the air to train posture and speed (The most difficult). We also kick the wall at an angle to make sure that our instep stays straight, but we don't use much power for this. There is no point in extreme conditioning like you have mentioned as you will regret it in the future when you can't walk straight.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I'm surprised about Beijing. I thought the term Sanshou was only used in the Guangdong area in southern China, but I imagine it has to do with Beijing being more international.



They still use the Term Sanda in Beijing but I did hear Sanshou there. There are even a couple of catch all CMA schools in Beijing (Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji, Sanshou, etc.) that are teaching Sanshou and not calling it Sanda. But that could be more for the westerners that go there too. And it is always the sports version. 



MaartenSFS said:


> Good. 99% of MA instructors in China are aresholes. I have met and trained with my fair share, but will never again. I don't think that it matters where your instructor is from so much as what he was taught and his own interpretation. Sanda is more like a blanket term and every instructor will have their own take on it. Some are better with hands, legs, shuaijiao... Some are well rounded. Some even mix in IMA principles.



I do not know all of what my sifu has trained. I do know he has trained Sanda, which is his only style as far as he is concerned, for many years. I also found out he has trained some Xingyi and Bagua but not that much. He knows the animal forms of Xingyi and I do not know what he knows of Bagua, just that he trained some. 



MaartenSFS said:


> My point was not that they are useless, just that many of their practitioners have the belief that they are invincible because...... Most of them could not use what they have learned in combat. Moreover.. there are some things that are inherently flawed in the IMA. For example, IMA combat principles are FAR more important than the actual techniques that are learnt. Taiji principles can be applied VERY WELL to Shuaijiao, but using the actual techniques will most likely get your **** shuai-ed.



I did not take it as you thought it was useless. I have trained mainly Yang Taiji for the last 12 years and I cannot tell you how many attitudes I have run into that are as you described. I have also trained Chen and they are there too but they seem to be of a lesser degree than Yang. But that could be just because I have trained Yang longer so I have just run into more attitudes. I came from a TKD and Jujitsu background prior to CMA so I believe (or at least hope) I know its limitations and strengths and I know if I walk up to a Sanda sifu (or for that matter my XIngyi sifu) and start telling them how invincible I am because I train Taiji and I only use Taiji to prove this to them well, I am going to get hurt. However my Taiji sifu might fair much better, he has trained Taiji and only taiji for about 50 years and he comes from Hong Kong where he started his training. But I do not have his level of skill, nor would he walk up to anyone and proclaim superiority. Actually he is another one that does not tell anybody outside of his class that he even knows any CMA. 




MaartenSFS said:


> Palm strikes? Do you mean punches? As far as I know Sanda teaches no palm strikes unless it is an open hand Baiquan (More or less like a hook punch), which I like to use as it minimises damage to the hand.



Actually I meant palm strikes. Much like a straight punch would be from a western boxer in a guard position except palm. Stand in Ma Bu standing in front of a tree and start hitting. We are also training forearm strikes this way as well (just not facing the tree). Punches not yet, and I am told not on trees. Dont know what my fists will be hitting but I am happy to say it is not trees.  



MaartenSFS said:


> You should try training here. In the winter it can be zero degrees (C) - INSIDE. In the summer it gets over 40 degrees (C). Both are like training in the bowels of Hell. My Shifu also shows no mercy to me (I can't stand the temperature extremes).



This past winter it was in the low teens and single digits here (Fahrenheit) and I showed up in 2 layers of coats, a hat and gloves and my sifu had on a coat. He thought it was rather nice out. Of course where he is from I believe he said the average temp in the winter is -20C. 



MaartenSFS said:


> While this type of training is common, my Shifu does not advocate it. We train terrible low stances and use a weight-lifting machine to build up leg strength. We kick heavy bags and pads to test our speed and strength. We kick the air to train posture and speed (The most difficult). We also kick the wall at an angle to make sure that our instep stays straight, but we don't use much power for this. There is no point in extreme conditioning like you have mentioned as you will regret it in the future when you can't walk straight.



Low stances we use, but I told him about the new heavy bag I bought this last year and the very first thing he said was why? He does have me kicking in the air to train posture and speed and I am very appreciative of his honesty in what was in the beginning my LACK of proper posture. It is better now. Actually I would not tell him this but I have always found it pretty amusing to watch a Good Chinese Sifu that is not happy with his students progress and to hear the brutally honest comments they make. There are not many, at least in my area, that are as brutally honest and I feel that the student them suffers. I dont laugh when he makes these comments by the way, I just make the corrections, but internally Im fairly amused, sometimes in pain form the correction lesson, but still amused. 

He currently appears rather healthy and walks upright and faster than I do but I have at times wondered about the kicking of trees. The palm strikes and forearm stuff does not bother me but I have not yet been able to elbow a tree, just cant get myself to do it. However I am told depending on what happens next month that my training is about to change. I am guessing (well a bit better than a guess) that we start Qinna soon. I have done Qinna training before, but not so much recently.


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 15, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually I meant palm strikes. Much like a straight punch would be from a western boxer in a guard position except palm. Stand in Ma Bu standing in front of a tree and start hitting. We are also training forearm strikes this way as well (just not facing the tree). Punches not yet, and I am told not on trees. Dont know what my fists will be hitting but I am happy to say it is not trees.


 
O, in that case it is not learning how to strike, but hardenning the hands so that if they don't hurt when you ht a tree they certainly won't hurt if you hit a skull. WHATEVER YOU DO, NEVER HIT ANYTHING EXCEPT BAGS OF SORTS WITH A CLOSED FIST. To train outer hardness hit things with the back of your hands, and preferably a flat surface. It will feel wonderful. 



Xue Sheng said:


> Low stances we use, but I told him about the new heavy bag I bought this last year and the very first thing he said was why? He does have me kicking in the air to train posture and speed and I am very appreciative of his honesty in what was in the beginning my LACK of proper posture. It is better now. Actually I would not tell him this but I have always found it pretty amusing to watch a Good Chinese Sifu that is not happy with his students progress and to hear the brutally honest comments they make. There are not many, at least in my area, that are as brutally honest and I feel that the student them suffers. I dont laugh when he makes these comments by the way, I just make the corrections, but internally Im fairly amused, sometimes in pain form the correction lesson, but still amused.


 
My Shifu is more or less the same, hence my improvement. Definitely the most difficult thing about training kicks is kicking air. Because you know how much you suck, yourself, without any sounds and feelings of power that you get from kicking a bag/pad/person. The air does not lie!



Xue Sheng said:


> He currently appears rather healthy and walks upright and faster than I do but I have at times wondered about the kicking of trees. The palm strikes and forearm stuff does not bother me but I have not yet been able to elbow a tree, just cant get myself to do it. However I am told depending on what happens next month that my training is about to change. I am guessing (well a bit better than a guess) that we start Qinna soon. I have done Qinna training before, but not so much recently.


 
Unless he teaches you to break a person's balance first and then use Qinna try to stay away from that. It's mostly IF... Then... IF... Then... IF... Then... Situations. Which means: If I use Qinna... I will get my **** kicked - usually. Learning how to kick and punch first. Then learn how to fall and how not to let other people Shuai you. Lastly learn how to Shuai other people. If you still hunger for more after that you can try to start learning some Qinna. But beware, you will then be getting into LARPing territory. 

     My Shifu never taught us a single Shuaijiao technique for about four months and just let us go at it and we learned ourselves.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 15, 2007)

Gentlemen, my kung fu knowledge is not on par wth yours so please excuse the intrusion. But am learning as I follow your discourse, so wanted to encourage its continuance.



MaartenSFS said:


> Definitely the most difficult thing about training kicks is kicking air. Because you know how much you suck, yourself, without any sounds and feelings of power that you get from kicking a bag/pad/person. The air does not lie!



Never thought of this, but now it's crystal clear. This is why kids & NooBs love to kick things that make noise--doesn't matter to them what/how they kicked.



> Unless he teaches you to break a person's balance first and then use Qinna try to stay away from that. It's mostly IF... Then... IF... Then... IF... Then... Situations. Which means: If I use Qinna... I will get my **** kicked - usually. Learning how to kick and punch first.


I've heard this expressed as Strike to disrupt (and create the qinna opening); Disrupt to strike (take his balance or center, then attack).


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 15, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Never thought of this, but now it's crystal clear. This is why kids & NooBs love to kick things that make noise--doesn't matter to them what/how they kicked.


 
EXACTLY, but you still need to do it with them to train for power. Also, the bag simulates actually kicking someone best.



kidswarrior said:


> I've heard this expressed as Strike to disrupt (and create the qinna opening); Disrupt to strike (take his balance or center, then attack).


 
No, that is still incorrect. You Shuai (Take them down) them and then use Qinna either while their balance is ****ed up or on the ground, with the latter taking priority. 99% of the time standing Qinna will not work against a resisting enemy (So not including drunkards and children).


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Unless he teaches you to break a person's balance first and then use Qinna try to stay away from that. It's mostly IF... Then... IF... Then... IF... Then... Situations. Which means: If I use Qinna... I will get my **** kicked - usually. Learning how to kick and punch first. Then learn how to fall and how not to let other people Shuai you. Lastly learn how to Shuai other people. If you still hunger for more after that you can try to start learning some Qinna. But beware, you will then be getting into LARPing territory.
> 
> My Shifu never taught us a single Shuaijiao technique for about four months and just let us go at it and we learned ourselves.


 
I may be in error now that I think about it. It may not be Qinna, it may be Shuaijiao now that I sit and think logically about it. I may have jumped to conclusions based on what I was told and the last time I trained Qinna years ago (and a bit more recently in Xingyi). I can say what I know is that I will be falling on the ground a lot more soon. Which in retrospect says more Shuaijiao than Qinna. 

My bad, sorry about that.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> No, that is still incorrect. You Shuai (Take them down) them and then use Qinna either while their balance is ****ed up or on the ground, with the latter taking priority. 99% of the time standing Qinna will not work against a resisting enemy (So not including drunkards and children).


 
Again this tells me I was in error and that it will likely not be Qinna that will be throwing me around soon but Shuaijiao tech. 

Also what you have said here agrees with what was said by the Gentleman I first learned Qinna from. It also shows me that I have become a bit addle brained and forgetful in my old age. Hopefully the training to come will beat the sense back into me. :uhyeah:


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## kidswarrior (Apr 15, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Again this tells me I was in error and that it will likely not be Qinna that will be throwing me around soon but Shuaijiao tech.



Think I made the same mistake. Good to get it straightened out. :ultracool


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 15, 2007)

Hm... I'll further elaborate on that, then..

Qinna = Seize and control. It is composed of joint locks, tearing muscle/flesh, and bone breaking. Though similar to Jujutsu, there is emphasis on training hand strength and hardness and the three mainly targeted joints are wrists, elbows, and shoulders (Though there are techniques to "seize" everything). Especially some Yingzhua (Eagle Claw) techniques are frighteningly painful.

Now, I'm sure that this sounds great... And, in theory, it is... BUT... Try it on a resisting enemy and you will see. 99% of the time it's better to just punch/elbow/kick/Shuai them.

Shuaijiao = Take Down (Or Chinese/Mongolian wrestling). These techniques are ones where your enemy ends up on the ground (In an uncomfortable way). There is little emphasis on groundwork because the idea is that if you are standing and they are not you are safer (And in Chinese culture it is considered dishonourable to fight on the ground). Also, when facing multiple opponents do you really want to be down there? Most of the time one good Shuai is enough to finish off an enemy (Assuming the ground is hard).

That said, we are taught something called Shuaiqin (Shuaijiao+Qinna) in which we take down the enemy and then make them wish that they hadn't fallen by using these terrible Qinna techniques.

Don't even try learning Qinna until your Shuaijiao is very good. Qinna is really not so important and often impractical. Law Enforcement officers may find it usefull (After they have studied kicking, punching, and Shuaijiao). To use any of the techniques requires that your Jibengong (Foundation training) is already at an advanced level.

And when learning Diefa (Falling Way) be sure to ask someone to massage your waist, back, and shoulders or... Just trust me on that one. 

And another thing you should learn is Jietui (Kick catching/takedowns). These can be brutal as well. Enjoy.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Qinna = Seize and control. It is composed of joint locks, tearing muscle/flesh, and bone breaking.


 
Yup that would be Qinna. A book I bought about Qinna after my training in it years ago is the only MA book that made me cringe and I started in Jujitsu... many years ago.



MaartenSFS said:


> These can be brutal as well. Enjoy.


 
So let me see if I have this straight......

I'm in for a world of hurt :uhyeah:


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## kidswarrior (Apr 15, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Hm... I'll further elaborate on that, then..
> 
> 99% of the time it's better to just punch/elbow/kick/Shuai them.
> 
> ...



Good stuff. Thanks. :ultracool

Goes with my predilection for the answer I give when other MA's say, Every fight goes to the ground. My hope is always that this is true--_for my opponent_. I'm a stand-up fighter, and that's never going to change, so have held this position for awhile. But I didn't have the theory/terminology behind it, until now. Now definitely want to make sure to beef up my Shuaijiao (not called that in my art, but same concept), along with Jietui (Maarten or XS, can you tell me how to pronounce this?). As you said, the ground is a very hard opponent indeed, especially if it's pavement or concrete.



> Quote: *Xue Sheng*
> So let me see if I have this straight......
> 
> I'm in for a world of hurt :uhyeah:


Ah, you know you love it. :lol:


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 15, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Goes with my predilection for the answer I give when other MA's say, Every fight goes to the ground. My hope is always that this is true--_for my opponent_. I'm a stand-up fighter, and that's never going to change, so have held this position for awhile. But I didn't have the theory/terminology behind it, until now. Now definitely want to make sure to beef up my Shuaijiao (not called that in my art, but same concept), along with Jietui (Maarten or XS, can you tell me how to pronounce this?). As you said, the ground is a very hard opponent indeed, especially if it's pavement or concrete.


 
As a general rule if you and your opponent go down, the first one that can get up again will win. Many times I've seen people Shuai someone, then do a Qiangunfan (Forward summersault), stand up, and turn around in Sandajia (Fighting stance) ready to pummel the slower opponent. This is done very quick and is quite beautiful if executed correctly.

In Sanda the only thing more important than learning how to Shuai other people is to protect yourself from getting Shuai-ed, which is a skill in itself. Often your opponent will make a stupid mistake when trying to attack you, losing their balance and basically giving you their Zhongxin (centre of gravity), afterwhich you easily Shuai them. "Gongji shi zui hao de fangshou." (Offense is the best defense)

Assuming that you are an English-speaker with no other language abilities it would be bloody impossible to teach you how to pronounce Jietui, especially through text-only communication. Study Chinese and then ask again. 

As for pain... If it's comfortable you are not studying an MA. We learn to tolerate pain so that me may inflict more on others. No pain, no gain. =D


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## MaartenSFS (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm going to have to disagree with my earlier statement about the effectiveness of Qinna, as outlined in my new article. It is not: 99% of Qinna is ineffective. It is: 99% of Qinna teachers cannot effectively use Qinna techniques.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 25, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with my earlier statement about the effectiveness of Qinna, as outlined in my new article. It is not: 99% of Qinna is ineffective. It is: 99% of Qinna teachers cannot effectively use Qinna techniques.


 

I can agree with this. 

One of the sifus I trained Qinna with also said, it was a long time ago so I may have this wrong, kicking and punching were to combat qinna, Shuaijiao was to combat kicking and punching, and qinna was to combat Shuaijiao, or something like that. It, like most Chinese things was circular in application.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 25, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I can agree with this.
> 
> One of the sifus I trained Qinna with also said, it was a long time ago so I may have this wrong, kicking and punching were to combat qinna, Shuaijiao was to combat kicking and punching, and qinna was to combat Shuaijiao, or something like that. It, like most Chinese things was circular in application.



Want to think about this a bit, but at first blush looks right (as in pragmatic for fighting ). Need to think about specific Kung Fu San Soo applications (my only real kung fu experience), and whether this paradigm would work best. Pretty sure it does validate KFSS principles--a very good thing indeed for me, if it proves out, since it provides maybe the most basic principles of combat I've seen.


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## qi-tah (May 8, 2007)

Ah, so it must have been Shuaijiao that i was learning in class last year (these groovy call/response sets where you and a partner constantly counterattack each other to try to take each other to the ground... amazing feeling when you get a good bout and you are constantly probing each other and escaping... a little bit like contact Capoeira!) And Shuijiao is a component of Sanda, or Sanshou, whatever you call it? Our teacher calls it Sanshou.
Interested to hear that it's considered bad form in China to fight from the ground... a couple of years ago a fellow student showed me some Dog boxing which was pretty much exclusively ground fighting - reminded me of my little sister when we were kids, in any fight she would immediately go to ground and kick me if i got too close! 

I've really enjoyed following this thread, thank-you to all who have made it so informative.


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## MaartenSFS (May 9, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I can agree with this.
> 
> One of the sifus I trained Qinna with also said, it was a long time ago so I may have this wrong, kicking and punching were to combat qinna, Shuaijiao was to combat kicking and punching, and qinna was to combat Shuaijiao, or something like that. It, like most Chinese things was circular in application.


 
Kicking and punching to combat Qinna = yes
Shuaijiao to combat kicking and punching = yes
Qinna to combat Shuaijiao = NO

Infact, Qinna can never be used alone. If you are facing a kickboxer, for example, you should immediately close the distance and try to Shuai them. BUT, if an opportunity presents itself, you should break something along the way. Getting a part of you broken AND being thrown (Especially on a hard surface) should end the fight for you. 

Against someone that has Shuaijiao and Qinna ability there is almost nothing that you can do. Run or just give up and die. Remember that they probably know how to punch and/or kick, as well. =D

Check out the article I wrote for a more in-depth analasis of Qinna. You can find the latest update on my new website below my signature. Also other things about China, learning Chinese, et cetera.


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## MaartenSFS (May 9, 2007)

qi-tah said:


> And Shuaijiao is a component of Sanda, or Sanshou, whatever you call it? Our teacher calls it Sanshou.


 
Sanda/Sanshou means free fighting, or applying what you have learned in sparring (Not fighting). It is composed of four aspects: &#36386;&#65288;Ti = kick&#65289;, &#25171;&#65288;Da = strike&#65289;, &#25684;&#65288;Shuai = take down&#65289;, and &#25343;&#65288;Na = Qinna&#65289;



qi-tah said:


> Interested to hear that it's considered bad form in China to fight from the ground... a couple of years ago a fellow student showed me some Dog boxing which was pretty much exclusively ground fighting - reminded me of my little sister when we were kids, in any fight she would immediately go to ground and kick me if i got too close!
> 
> I've really enjoyed following this thread, thank-you to all who have made it so informative.


 
Though in Chinese culture it was considered uncivilised and in martial theory it was considered dangerous, ground-fighting was not neglected. What you see today does not represent the former grandness of martial arts. Martial has been taken out and all that we are left with is Art.

You're welcome.


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## Xue Sheng (May 9, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Kicking and punching to combat Qinna = yes
> Shuaijiao to combat kicking and punching = yes
> Qinna to combat Shuaijiao = NO
> 
> ...


 
I believe he was talking in combination as the things you need to know. Not that a Qinna person could defeat a Shuaijiao person. And I could have the order wrong, it was over 10 yars ago


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