# naihanchi/tekki



## ppko (Aug 29, 2007)

*Naihanchi* (&#12490;&#12452;&#12495;&#12531;&#12481;, _*Naihanchi*_?) (or *Naifanchi* (&#12490;&#12452;&#12501;&#12449;&#12531;&#12481;, _*Naifanchi*_?), *Tekki* (&#37444;&#39438;, _*Tekki*_?)) is a karate Kata, performed in straddle stance (naihanchi-dachi (&#12490;&#12452;&#12495;&#12531;&#12481;&#31435;&#12385;, _naihanchi-dachi_?) / kiba-dachi (&#39438;&#39340;&#31435;&#12385;, _kiba-dachi_?)). It translates to 'internal divided conflict'. The form makes use of in-fighting techniques (i.e. tai sabaki (body evasion)) and grappling. There are three modern kata derived from this (Shodan, Nidan and Sandan). Some researchers believe Nidan and Sandan were created by Anko Itosu, but others believe that it was originally one kata broken into three separate parts (probably due to constraints of space). The fact that only Naihanchi/Tekki Shodan has a formal opening suggests the kata was split.
It has been suggested the kata was originally developed when fighting against a wall / ledge / narrow confined space which is unlikely; however it could be used for this purpose. Whilst the kata is linear, moving side to side, the techniques can be applied against attackers at any angle. The side to side movements in a low stance build up the necessary balance and strength for fast footwork and body shifting. The kata are intricate strategies of attacking and defensive movement, done in the kiba dachi, for the purpose of conditioning the legs to develop explosive power. If one rotates one's torso a few degrees to one side or the other while performing Naihanchi/Tekki, the result is the Hachi-monji, or figure eight stance. This has been called the basics of all karate[_citation needed_]. Some researchers believe the form is a non-ballistic two-man grappling exercise.



//

*History*

Itosu is reported to have learned the kata from Sokon Matsumura, who learned it from a Chinese man living in Tomari. Itosu is thought to have changed the original kata. The form is so important to old style karate that Kentsu Yabu (a student of Itosu) often told his students &#8216;Karate begins and ends with Naihanchi&#8217; and admonished his students must practice the kata 10,000 times to make it their own. Before Itosu created the Pinan (Heian) kata, Naihanchi would traditionally be taught first in Tomari-te and Shuri-te schools, which indicates its importance. Gichin Funakoshi learned the kata from Anko Asato. Funakoshi renamed the kata Tekki (Iron Horse) in reference to his old teacher, Itosu, and the forms power.


 


Motobu's Naihanchi


The oldest known reference to Naihanchi are in the books of Motobu Choki. He states the kata was imported from China, but is no longer practiced there. Motobu learned the kata from Sokon Matsumura, Sakuma Pechin, Anko Itosu and Kosaku Matsumura. Motobu taught his own interpretation of Naihanchi, which included te (Okinawan form of martial arts which predates karate) like grappling and throwing techniques.
In the earlier days of karate training, it was common practice for a student to spend 2-3 years doing nothing but Naihanchi/Tekki, under the strict observation of their teacher. Motobu Choki, famous for his youthful brawling at tsuji (red-light district), credited the kata with containing all that one needs to know to become a proficient fighter.
The Tekki series of kata were renamed by Funakoshi from the *Naihanchi* kata, which were derived from an older, original kata, Nifanchin.[1] Nifanchin was brought to Okinawa via Fuzhou, China, at some point in the long history of trade between the two kingdoms. It was broken into three distinct segments, possibly by Anko Itosu, Tokumine Pechin, or Motobu Choki. The kata are performed entirely in Kiba dachi ("Horse stance"). The name Tekki itself (and Nifanchin) translates to "Iron Horse." Tekki Shodan (&#37444;&#39438;&#21021;&#27573, literally meaning "_Iron Horse Riding, First Level_", is the first of the series, followed by Tekki nidan and Tekki sandan.
In the 1960&#8217;s a kung fu practitioner, Daichi Kaneko, studied a form of Taiwanese White Crane Boxing, known as Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing). Kaneko, an acupuncturist who lived in Yonabaru, Okinawa, taught a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form includes the same sweeping action found in the nami-gaeshi (returning wave) technique of Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_GNU_Free_Documentation_License


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## ppko (Aug 29, 2007)

I got this article from wikipedia, I love the kata and have actually made the three kata the only requirements in my school.  The katas are so diverse and the breakdowns can be so many that its impossible to truly master all parts of the kata so that is why I made the threee naihanchis the only requirement.
Just wandering what your oppinions on this article and on what I have done.


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## stoneheart (Aug 29, 2007)

I think using only Naihanchi for your requirements is far too limiting.  While it is true that the old masters likely only knew a few kata, I think modern students want and need more stimulation to keep their attention.  

Naihanchi contains no yokogeri.  Does this mean you don't teach yokogeri at all?


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2007)

I have been told that Naihanchi is the 'perfect' kata, the one that has everything in it to win a fight. I love the Wado version of it but do the TSD version at the moment which has less moves. 

I think it depends on which katas you chose for your three to to learn, if it were Wado I think I'd chose Pinan Shodan, Kushanku and Naihanchi. On both styles I do we teach a great many techniques that aren't in any kata so I don't think any instructor would limit what he taught to just what is in the kata. if I read ppko correctly they are saying they are choosing to do just three kata not just teaching in class the techniques from those kata.

I'd say if it works for you do it! Which style do you do?


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## ppko (Aug 30, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> I think using only Naihanchi for your requirements is far too limiting. While it is true that the old masters likely only knew a few kata, I think modern students want and need more stimulation to keep their attention.


I dont believe that Naihanchi is limiting at all.  Truly most people only see the one angle of naihanchi but if done with a slight variation it incorporates all stances, and if you change your angles of attack you just opened a whole new world of opportunity.  I agree that kids probably do need more stimulation, thats part of the reason why I only teach adults, that and I dont consider myself a good kids teacher just because I do keep things somewhat to complex for a child.



stoneheart said:


> Naihanchi contains no yokogeri. Does this mean you don't teach yokogeri at all?


On the contrary the movements where you are lifting your legs and turning your head if you realy look at that movement it is both a seisan kick and a side kick


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## ppko (Aug 30, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I have been told that Naihanchi is the 'perfect' kata, the one that has everything in it to win a fight. I love the Wado version of it but do the TSD version at the moment which has less moves.
> 
> I think it depends on which katas you chose for your three to to learn, if it were Wado I think I'd chose Pinan Shodan, Kushanku and Naihanchi. On both styles I do we teach a great many techniques that aren't in any kata so I don't think any instructor would limit what he taught to just what is in the kata. if I read ppko correctly they are saying they are choosing to do just three kata not just teaching in class the techniques from those kata.
> 
> I'd say if it works for you do it! Which style do you do?


You are very correct in the fact that I do teach more, but I also tell my students to look for the movement in naihanchi they may see something I dont.  I do ryukyu kempo


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## stoneheart (Aug 30, 2007)

ppko said:


> On the contrary the movements where you are lifting your legs and turning your head if you realy look at that movement it is both a seisan kick and a side kick



Ah, I see you're from the extremely open-ended interpretation school of thought which is fine.  Infinite possibilities from a single kata...

I myself prefer to use different kata to teach different lessons.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Aug 30, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> Ah, I see you're from the extremely open-ended interpretation school of thought which is fine. Infinite possibilities from a single kata...
> 
> I myself prefer to use different kata to teach different lessons.


 
I agree with both of you.  I believe in infinite possibilities in each Kata but I also believe that each Kata teaches a different lesson - usually the lesson corresponds to the name.  The art I study has 29 empty hand Kata.  I see the value in both breadth & depth of knowledge, when it comes to Kata but if forced to choose I'd pick depth.

_Don Flatt


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## ppko (Aug 30, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I agree with both of you. I believe in infinite possibilities in each Kata but I also believe that each Kata teaches a different lesson - usually the lesson corresponds to the name. The art I study has 29 empty hand Kata. I see the value in both breadth & depth of knowledge, when it comes to Kata but if forced to choose I'd pick depth.
> 
> _Don Flatt


which way do you see depth


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## ppko (Aug 30, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> Ah, I see you're from the extremely open-ended interpretation school of thought which is fine. Infinite possibilities from a single kata...
> 
> I myself prefer to use different kata to teach different lessons.


Yes sir, but I also see several different kata out of just one kata once I get done filming the different versions of naihanchi shodan as I see them I will try to post them here


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Aug 30, 2007)

ppko said:


> which way do you see depth


Taking time to look beyond the surface of the form, exploring possibilities, applying movements as blocks or parries or checks or strikes or throws or evasions or trips or sweeps, changing directions or angles, & experimenting with different attacks, situations, & attackers.


ppko said:


> Yes sir, but I also see several different kata out of just one kata once I get done filming the different versions of naihanchi shodan as I see them I will try to post them here


That would be awesome. Naihanchi Shodan is one of my favorites.

_Don Flatt


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## ppko (Aug 30, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Taking time to look beyond the surface of the form, exploring possibilities, applying movements as blocks or parries or checks or strikes or throws or evasions or trips or sweeps, changing directions or angles, & experimenting with different attacks, situations, & attackers.
> 
> That would be awesome. Naihanchi Shodan is one of my favorites.
> 
> _Don Flatt


Ok so not more forms but being further in depth with the form/forms you know


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Aug 30, 2007)

I would view breadth as more forms.

_Don Flatt


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## chinto (Aug 30, 2007)

ppko said:


> I got this article from wikipedia, I love the kata and have actually made the three kata the only requirements in my school. The katas are so diverse and the breakdowns can be so many that its impossible to truly master all parts of the kata so that is why I made the threee naihanchis the only requirement.
> Just wandering what your oppinions on this article and on what I have done.


the Neihanchi kata are great kata, but I would encuridge you to look at including Seisan and perhaps some others.. there is so much in any of the old school kata from Okinawa like Neihanchi kata that it is mind boggling!
by the way the neihanchi stance used in that photo is a tamari version. the shuri version I have seen has the toes in a bit more and the knees turned in slightly..( ala matsumura seito)


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## chinto (Aug 30, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I have been told that Naihanchi is the 'perfect' kata, the one that has everything in it to win a fight. I love the Wado version of it but do the TSD version at the moment which has less moves.
> 
> I think it depends on which katas you chose for your three to to learn, if it were Wado I think I'd chose Pinan Shodan, Kushanku and Naihanchi. On both styles I do we teach a great many techniques that aren't in any kata so I don't think any instructor would limit what he taught to just what is in the kata. if I read ppko correctly they are saying they are choosing to do just three kata not just teaching in class the techniques from those kata.
> 
> I'd say if it works for you do it! Which style do you do?


 

I have to say i would add to naihanchi katas , Seisan, annanku, chinto and gojushiho and passai and kusanku minumum myself.  but then that is part of the silibous of the style I study myself. but Bushi Matsumura knew  seisan and naihanchi kata and wanchu and annanku and kusanku and passai.. it does increase your versitility a bit..


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## chinto (Aug 30, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I agree with both of you. I believe in infinite possibilities in each Kata but I also believe that each Kata teaches a different lesson - usually the lesson corresponds to the name. The art I study has 29 empty hand Kata. I see the value in both breadth & depth of knowledge, when it comes to Kata but if forced to choose I'd pick depth.
> 
> _Don Flatt


 

wow that is a lot of empty hand kata! or are they all empty hand kata?

what style do you study?


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## ppko (Aug 30, 2007)

chinto said:


> the Neihanchi kata are great kata, but I would encuridge you to look at including Seisan and perhaps some others.. there is so much in any of the old school kata from Okinawa like Neihanchi kata that it is mind boggling!
> by the way the neihanchi stance used in that photo is a tamari version. the shuri version I have seen has the toes in a bit more and the knees turned in slightly..( ala matsumura seito)


I know the other kata as well I am just trying to get my students to be able to master these if they want to learn more I am willing to teach them more but right now they are very excited with how diverse naihanchi is


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Aug 31, 2007)

chinto said:


> wow that is a lot of empty hand kata! or are they all empty hand kata?
> 
> what style do you study?


 
I agree it's alot of Kata.  Yes, they are all empty hand.  We also have a six part Jo staff Kata & about 15 Katana Kata taken from Iai.  Thankfully, the Iai Kata are real short.

I study Kosho Shorei.  There are 6 Kata's developed by our current Hanshi and 5 from the Late Grand Master.  A number of Kyokoshin Kata were included to reflect the period of our history where these Kata were shared with and studied by students of our art.  The Pinan, Naihanchi, Kusanku, Passai, Empi, & Gankaku specifically.  Juchnik Hanshi added one Kata from Shuri-Ryu to reflect the influence and friendship of Grandmaster Robert Trias.  Hanshi also included Ju Ni Ippon Shodan, Nidan, & Sandan as beginer forms at the request of Trias Sensei.  Thankfully again, the beginner forms are identical except each utilizes a different block.

I can see the usefulness of all of the Kata we study - they each teach something different but I also can see studying each of them for years (even the more basic) and not exhausting them.  I guess I'm going to be busy with this for a real long time.

_Don Flatt


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## chinto (Sep 2, 2007)

ppko said:


> I know the other kata as well I am just trying to get my students to be able to master these if they want to learn more I am willing to teach them more but right now they are very excited with how diverse naihanchi is


 

well that is very cool that htey are excited and looking at bunkai for the kata!  I guess I got the impression that you did not teach other kata some how.. that seemed kinda strange, but it was what it sounded like to me..


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## chinto (Sep 2, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> I agree it's alot of Kata. Yes, they are all empty hand. We also have a six part Jo staff Kata & about 15 Katana Kata taken from Iai. Thankfully, the Iai Kata are real short.
> 
> I study Kosho Shorei. There are 6 Kata's developed by our current Hanshi and 5 from the Late Grand Master. A number of Kyokoshin Kata were included to reflect the period of our history where these Kata were shared with and studied by students of our art. The Pinan, Naihanchi, Kusanku, Passai, Empi, & Gankaku specifically. Juchnik Hanshi added one Kata from Shuri-Ryu to reflect the influence and friendship of Grandmaster Robert Trias. Hanshi also included Ju Ni Ippon Shodan, Nidan, & Sandan as beginer forms at the request of Trias Sensei. Thankfully again, the beginner forms are identical except each utilizes a different block.
> 
> ...


 
ok, sounds cool.

in the style I study to test for shodan-ho you have to know all our empty hand kata and have them polished, and also know several weapons kata from kobujitsu/kobudo.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 9, 2007)

I think that Naihanchi is a great Kata to start students off with as it conditions the legs ie the constant horse stance, and it also has great use of hip techniques.  Also it does show diverse techniques as discussed earlier as it does also involve grappling techniques.  
The school where I study in our syllabus you must first learn Fukyugata Ichi and Ni and all 5 Pinan before being taught Naihanchi, though I personally like to teach it earlier on for the reasons I stated.  
I believe that all Katas have a lot of diversity and all need time and effort to be taught and to be learned.


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## ppko (Sep 9, 2007)

chinto said:


> well that is very cool that htey are excited and looking at bunkai for the kata! I guess I got the impression that you did not teach other kata some how.. that seemed kinda strange, but it was what it sounded like to me..


Well originally I was only going to teach the Naihanchi which is the way I started this thread.  I now have included tomari bassai, wansu and seisan just so my students can choose which kata will best fit there needs


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## chinto (Sep 10, 2007)

ppko said:


> Well originally I was only going to teach the Naihanchi which is the way I started this thread. I now have included tomari bassai, wansu and seisan just so my students can choose which kata will best fit there needs


 

um, if it is the 'Tamari te verson of passai, then it would be Passai and not Bassai.... as Tamari Te is Okinawan and not Shotokan....  :asian:

um just a point of termonoligy order.... tamari-te was before the term bassai..... :asian:


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## ppko (Sep 10, 2007)

I was doing Passai then I had people that wasnt understanding so I changed to bassai lol and it is tomari but thank you


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## chinto (Sep 11, 2007)

ppko said:


> I was doing Passai then I had people that wasnt understanding so I changed to bassai lol and it is tomari but thank you


 

LOL ok I just wanted to be more prosise as there are real diferences in the kata.  but I do understand.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 11, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> I think using only Naihanchi for your requirements is far too limiting. While it is true that the old masters likely only knew a few kata, I think modern students want and need more stimulation to keep their attention.
> 
> Naihanchi contains no yokogeri. Does this mean you don't teach yokogeri at all?


 

  In the Marine Corps. we were always taught to do more with less. I think Naihanchi exemplifies this attitude. When I was stationed in Okinawa I did several martial arts and karate was one of them. I was taught Naihanchi but most of I was taught seemed pretty basic that is until I had the good fortune to meet and train with my present teacher. My eyes were opened to a whole new level and I gained the up most respect for what at first seemed like a short uncomplicated kata. 
  I can recall when my present teacher showed me some of the applications from Naiahnchi. I began to see why the old masters revered this kata. 

I have a question. Since when do students dictate what is being taught to them? I was always were under the impression they were there to learn what was taught not tell the teacher what to teach. I guess if the teacher has in depth knowledge and something of value to teach then this isn&#8217;t a problem though and they will feel challenged enough to not get bored.


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## harlan (Sep 11, 2007)

Depends on the student and the teacher. There is the idea that training and learning isn't something locked into a set curriculum...but a dynamic process that happens between people. Sure, have an overall curriculum...but modified to best suit the student's needs. But then go from there. 'What do you want to do/learn now? No ideas? No questions...go home.' 



OkinawaPeichin said:


> I have a question. Since when do students dictate what is being taught to them? I was always were under the impression they were there to learn what was taught not tell the teacher what to teach. I guess if the teacher has in depth knowledge and something of value to teach then this isnt a problem though and they will feel challenged enough to not get bored.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 11, 2007)

harlan said:


> Depends on the student and the teacher. There is the idea that training and learning isn't something locked into a set curriculum...but a dynamic process that happens between people. Sure, have an overall curriculum...but modified to best suit the student's needs. But then go from there. 'What do you want to do/learn now? No ideas? No questions...go home.'




With that attitude I doubt you would last long in a real Okinawan or Japanese dojo.


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## harlan (Sep 11, 2007)

Probably right.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 11, 2007)

harlan said:


> Probably right.



Since your profile is extremely vague and only lists "kobudo" could you tell us what it is you train in and perhaps how long and from whom you have studied?
Just curious...


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## stoneheart (Sep 11, 2007)

> With that attitude I doubt you would last long in a real Okinawan or Japanese dojo.



Apparently Okinawans and Japanese wouldn't last in those dojos either, since I understand study of the martial arts has been in decline in both islands for years...

Best to be inclusive rather than exclusive, I think.


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## baron (Sep 11, 2007)

regarding this kata, Isshin ryu style teaches that master Shimabuku combined what he preceived  as the best techniques of the 3 katas to form the Naihanchi kata used in Isshin ryu.  our history of the original kata has Tode Sakugawa teaching Soken Matsumora.  it is said that Choki motobu performed this kata hundreds of times a day.  also do not know if any one out there has ever heard that this kata is a good kata for ground fighting.  i read some where before, but do not know where, that it's excellent when on your back, on the ground and someone is trying to mount you or has mounted you.  be interested if any one has ever tried using the moves from this kata in that situation.


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## chinto (Sep 12, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> In the Marine Corps. we were always taught to do more with less. I think Naihanchi exemplifies this attitude. When I was stationed in Okinawa I did several martial arts and karate was one of them. I was taught Naihanchi but most of I was taught seemed pretty basic that is until I had the good fortune to meet and train with my present teacher. My eyes were opened to a whole new level and I gained the up most respect for what at first seemed like a short uncomplicated kata.
> I can recall when my present teacher showed me some of the applications from Naiahnchi. I began to see why the old masters revered this kata.
> 
> I have a question. Since when do students dictate what is being taught to them? I was always were under the impression they were there to learn what was taught not tell the teacher what to teach. I guess if the teacher has in depth knowledge and something of value to teach then this isnt a problem though and they will feel challenged enough to not get bored.


 

at least to a greater extent I have to agree with that. The Sensei is there to teach and the student to learn. Now sometimes there may be an enphisis requested by the student, but in general you are there to learn and the sensei to teach.


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## chinto (Sep 12, 2007)

baron said:


> regarding this kata, Isshin ryu style teaches that master Shimabuku combined what he preceived as the best techniques of the 3 katas to form the Naihanchi kata used in Isshin ryu. our history of the original kata has Tode Sakugawa teaching Soken Matsumora. it is said that Choki motobu performed this kata hundreds of times a day. also do not know if any one out there has ever heard that this kata is a good kata for ground fighting. i read some where before, but do not know where, that it's excellent when on your back, on the ground and someone is trying to mount you or has mounted you. be interested if any one has ever tried using the moves from this kata in that situation.


 

Interesting as his younger Brother Ezio Shimubukuro, who trained under Master Kyan just as his older brother Tatsu who founded Isshin ryu also studied under Kyan, and Master Kyan tought the three Neihanchi kata. I Know this becouse I am a student of Shobayashi Shorin ryu and it teaches now as Kyan tought the three Niahanchi kata. ..  I have to wonder why Tastu Shimubukuro changed things that way. I would think you have lost some things myself.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 12, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> Apparently Okinawans and Japanese wouldn't last in those dojos either, since I understand study of the martial arts has been in decline in both islands for years...
> 
> Best to be inclusive rather than exclusive, I think.



Isn't part of training to better yourself? Why lower the bar to include everyone instead of empowering them and have them come up to meet the bar. 

Since I don't know you I can't tell if you are trying to be funny or
not. I'll take a chance and guess that you're not.

So to reply to your comment about "Okinawans and Japanese not lasting
in those dojos as well". Okinawans and Japanese tend to be more
serious & respectful to the martial arts teachers than their western
counter parts. Therefore they tend to not act like spoiled brats or
cry babies in the dojo demanding that the class be "entertaining" so
they don't get "bored".
This is where the adage "Nintai" comes in to training. Nintai meaning
to preserve or stick it out, even if it's not "entertaining".  I think
the west could benefit from this attitude and possibly take a more
Spartan approach to training.
There are no air conditioners or heaters in Okinawan/Japanese dojos so
if it's hot outside it's hot inside and if it's cold outside it's cold
inside. And it does get hot and humid in Okinawa. This isn't meant as
a torture of some kind but it's meant to strengthen the spirit and to
build an attitude that can tolerate adversity. Unfortunately this is
something I see lacking in many or most of my western martial arts
brethren.
I have an American friend that trained in the same dojo as I did down
in Okinawa and recall visiting his dojo back in the US once. I saw
several of his students waltz in carrying a Starbucks Frappacinos
(Coffe Milkshake), food and talking on their cell phones. This kind of
behavior is unacceptable in Okinawan/Japanese dojos and shows great
disrespect to the members of the dojo that are there to train. You are
there to train not to have a picnic. Dojos are not only for training
your body but also the spirit.
I talked to him about it later asking him what our sensei back in
Okinawa would say. He said Sensei would have thought he failed as a
teacher if we showed him that much disrespect. I asked him why he
tolerated it and he said that this is the US and you have to give the
"customer" what they want. He said it's more like babysitting than
martial arts training. I felt sorry for him that he has to deal with
people that lack that much spirit.
I think this is why I like my present teacher so much. Even though he
is an American he teaches just like my Okinawan/Japanese teachers do.


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## stoneheart (Sep 12, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin,

I train under a traditional Okinawan Karate sensei myself, and I value the old ways, but I do think you're being a bit over the top with your remarks about Okinawan and Japanese students.  Yes, their culture is different and students there are more likely to understand the expectations of a traditional dojo over there.  No surprise there.  But, let's not ignore the fact that martial arts participation has been declining over there for years.  That's no coincidence either - it really does seem like young Okinawans and Japanese are finding other things to occupy their free time with, like American Idol perhaps?

Back to my original point.  There's nothing wrong with a student telling his sensei what he would like to learn or work on.  This might not fly in the 'old country' with an old school teacher, but we're talking about America after all.  Karate and its teaching paradigms have inevitably changed as it has taken root in the United States.  You can choose to train the way you want to.  Others can do what they want to as well.  So long as their martial arts is good and strong, who are we to complain about it?


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 12, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> OkinawaPeichin,
> 
> I train under a traditional Okinawan Karate sensei myself, and I value the old ways, but I do think you're being a bit over the top with your remarks about Okinawan and Japanese students.  Yes, their culture is different and students there are more likely to understand the expectations of a traditional dojo over there.  No surprise there.  But, let's not ignore the fact that martial arts participation has been declining over there for years.  That's no coincidence either - it really does seem like young Okinawans and Japanese are finding other things to occupy their free time with, like American Idol perhaps?
> 
> Back to my original point.  There's nothing wrong with a student telling his sensei what he would like to learn or work on.  This might not fly in the 'old country' with an old school teacher, but we're talking about America after all.  Karate and its teaching paradigms have inevitably changed as it has taken root in the United States.  You can choose to train the way you want to.  Others can do what they want to as well.  So long as their martial arts is good and strong, who are we to complain about it?



 Where was this Traditional Okinawan Dojo you trained in? The US? Okinawa? Who did you train with?

  You seem to have over simplified my point. 
  I think its fine if students ask questions but I dont agree that students should dictate what should be taught. 

  As for karate declining in popularity in Okinawa and Japan, well it may have something to do with a shrinking population of young people as well as introduction of other sports into the country. However the same things seem to be happening in the west. 
  By the way, American Idol doesnt air over here. Thank God.

  Regarding your last paragraph. I dont think students dictating what is to be taught in class has improved or produced strong karateka. I think it has produced McDojos.


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## stoneheart (Sep 12, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> Where was this Traditional Okinawan Dojo you trained in? The US? Okinawa? Who did you train with?



Normally, I wouldn't have a problem answering this question. However you seem to be calling my credentials into question.  I see no reason to get into a lineage p****ing match with you when I am merely stating my opinion as you are. 



> You seem to have over simplified my point.
> I think its fine if students ask questions but I dont agree that students should dictate what should be taught.



Well, I disagree.  I see nothing wrong with discretely asking your sensei to teach a class on a certain kata, or asking him to focus more on body training, etc.  In the end, it's your training after all.  YOU must take responsibility for it.



> As for karate declining in popularity in Okinawa and Japan, well it may have something to do with a shrinking population of young people as well as introduction of other sports into the country. However the same things seem to be happening in the west.
> By the way, American Idol doesnt air over here. Thank God.



From speaking to a recent emigre, I had understood karate to be a declining art for some time now due to pure popularity.  Yes, there's other activities to choose from now, but there's an undercurrent of feeling that karate is 'old and useless'.  His words, not mine.  By the way, the same emigre said karate in America is getting better all the time with all the high quality instruction Americans are receiving from either native instructors that have moved to North America or from regular contact with Japan and Okinawa.  The advent of the internet has also allow masses of students to realize there is more to karate than simple punch/kick practice and this in turn has caused them to seek out more advanced instruction.  I am certainly in this second group.



> Regarding your last paragraph. I dont think students dictating what is to be taught in class has improved or produced strong karateka. I think it has produced McDojos.



Any action has both 'good' and 'bad' outcomes resulting from it.  The point I am trying to make is that perhaps you are over-romanticizing Okinawans and Japanese students.  In the end, they are just people like anyone else.  

The funny thing is that we're probably not too far apart if we could see how each of us train in person.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 12, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> Normally, I wouldn't have a problem answering this question. However you seem to be calling my credentials into question. I see no reason to get into a lineage p****ing match with you when I am merely stating my opinion as you are.


 
  Youre being over sensitive. I was just curious. If you would rather not post that info then I understand. 



stoneheart said:


> The point I am trying to make is that perhaps you are over-romanticizing Okinawans and Japanese students. In the end, they are just people like anyone else.


 
  Having actually trained in dojo in Okianwa and the US and seen first hand the types of students in each I can assure you I am not over-romanticizing. 



stoneheart said:


> The funny thing is that we're probably not too far apart if we could see how each of us train in person.


 
  So can you share with us a typical training session?


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## stoneheart (Sep 12, 2007)

> So can you share with us a typical training session?



Sure.  

You show up early for hojo undo, kotekitae, and makiwara practice.  Without prior permission, you are not permitted to attend class unless you came early for this.   

Actual class lasts 2.5 hours and starts with a 20 minute bow in and warmup/stretching.  Next, sanchin kata is performed multiple times with shime and corrections by Sensei.  Then kihon practice usually lasts for 30-40 minutes.  Sensei is obsessive about correct form when blocking and punching, and this is one of the best segments of practice since he frequently shows where each strike and block should be targeted with someone as uke.

This usually leaves an hour left of class that is spent on kata, kiso kumite and bunkai practice, takedowns and joint locking, kobudo, and occasionally  free sparring.  Usually Sensei picks 2, rarely 3 of these topics to cover during the last hour.   Whatever the theme, you are expected to practice whatever fine point he demonstrated during kihon in your kata practice, etc, although he is certainly offering additional corrections during this time.

We always end class with another 3 repetitions of Sanchin (usually no shime) before a quick cool down and bow out.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 12, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> Sure.
> 
> You show up early for hojo undo, kotekitae, and makiwara practice.  Without prior permission, you are not permitted to attend class unless you came early for this.
> 
> ...



I see. So there isn't a "Hey Sensei let's work on this timei" ?:wink2:


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## stoneheart (Sep 12, 2007)

Hah, hah.  

In all seriousness, I wouldn't dare ask him to change his lesson plan midstream, but I would and have asked him to focus something I feel a little lacking in, and he's been willing to accomodate me.


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## ppko (Sep 12, 2007)

baron said:


> regarding this kata, Isshin ryu style teaches that master Shimabuku combined what he preceived as the best techniques of the 3 katas to form the Naihanchi kata used in Isshin ryu. our history of the original kata has Tode Sakugawa teaching Soken Matsumora. it is said that Choki motobu performed this kata hundreds of times a day. also do not know if any one out there has ever heard that this kata is a good kata for ground fighting. i read some where before, but do not know where, that it's excellent when on your back, on the ground and someone is trying to mount you or has mounted you. be interested if any one has ever tried using the moves from this kata in that situation.


Naihanchi is great on the ground it is also great while in the mount position this is why I love the kata it is so diverse


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 12, 2007)

baron said:


> regarding this kata, Isshin ryu style teaches that master Shimabuku combined what he preceived  as the best techniques of the 3 katas to form the Naihanchi kata used in Isshin ryu.  our history of the original kata has Tode Sakugawa teaching Soken Matsumora.  it is said that Choki motobu performed this kata hundreds of times a day.  _also do not know if any one out there has ever heard that this kata is a good kata for ground fighting.  i read some where before, but do not know where, that it's excellent when on your back, on the ground and someone is trying to mount you or has mounted you._  be interested if any one has ever tried using the moves from this kata in that situation.



My teacher mentioned this fact several years ago to me. When I didn't believe him he quickly showed me.  I later read some of my teacher's old posts on another website where he discussed this. 
My teacher often teaches some of the military combatives classes which emphasize ground work. Good stuff and very practical.


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## chinto (Sep 17, 2007)

I did a little reaserch and from what I found out  all 3 of the Neihanchi kata are atributed to have Originated from  Bushi Matsumura.  Now I know that that is from oral history as there are not any real writen records from that time... but some one earler did atribute the Naihanchi Ni Dan and San Dan to Anku Itosu.  I Must at this time respectfully disigree enless some one can furnish some infermation I could not find.


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## TimoS (Sep 17, 2007)

chinto said:


> Master Kyan tought the three Neihanchi kata



Actually, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi kata. My friend, who is quite well versed in history, just confirmed this and told me that this has been asked also from Joen Nakazato and he has confirmed it. Yes, the Naifanchi kata appear in many Shorin(ji) schools of Kyan's lineage, e.g. in Seibukan, but they were brought in there by Chozo Nakama, a friend of the Shimabukuro family. I don't know where they come from in Shobayashi (but if I'd have to guess, I'd say Tatsuo Shimabukuro), but it can't be from Kyan


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 17, 2007)

chinto said:


> I did a little reaserch and from what I found out  all 3 of the Neihanchi kata are atributed to have Originated from  Bushi Matsumura.  Now I know that that is from oral history as there are not any real writen records from that time... but some one earler did atribute the Naihanchi Ni Dan and San Dan to Anku Itosu.  I Must at this time respectfully disigree enless some one can furnish some infermation I could not find.



Can I ask where you got this information?


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## punisher73 (Sep 17, 2007)

> Actually, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi kata. My friend, who is quite well versed in history, just confirmed this and told me that this has been asked also from Joen Nakazato and he has confirmed it. Yes, the Naifanchi kata appear in many Shorin(ji) schools of Kyan's lineage, e.g. in Seibukan, but they were brought in there by Chozo Nakama, a friend of the Shimabukuro family. I don't know where they come from in Shobayashi (but if I'd have to guess, I'd say Tatsuo Shimabukuro), but it can't be from Kyan


 

I know that prior to developing Isshinryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku spent about a year studying with Choki Motobu who was famous for his Naihanchi.  Also, Isshinryu's version starts to the left just as Motobu's did.  So that might be where he learned it.  I had originally heard that Tatsuo learned it from Kyan, but if that is not the case he must have learned it from Motobu.


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## chinto (Sep 18, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> Can I ask where you got this information?


 

yes several articals by Kyoshi Gould and also from a search engine search. I also asked my sensei and was told the same.


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## chinto (Sep 18, 2007)

punisher73 said:


> I know that prior to developing Isshinryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku spent about a year studying with Choki Motobu who was famous for his Naihanchi. Also, Isshinryu's version starts to the left just as Motobu's did. So that might be where he learned it. I had originally heard that Tatsuo learned it from Kyan, but if that is not the case he must have learned it from Motobu.


 
well our Neihanchi kata start to the right.. so I dont think it came from  Motobu from what you say.   My guess is he learned them from either Bushi Matsumura as Kyoshi Gould said in his artical or from one of the few other instructors Kyan had. Matsomura perhaps?  As far as I know Ezio Shimubukuro learned his kata mainly from Kyan , chojin Miyagi and a little from Motobu.  but our Naihanchi open to the right and not the left, and you did say motobu opened his version to the left?


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## punisher73 (Sep 18, 2007)

> but our Naihanchi open to the right and not the left, and you did say motobu opened his version to the left?Today 01:23 AM


 
Yes, I have a video of Chosei Motobu (Choki's son) performing Naihanchi shodan and nidan, along with the 12 kumite techniques his father taught.

The isshinryu version goes to the left as well, at least all the ones I have seen.  I'm not sure if any other styles go to the left either.  Not really a big thing since it is mirrored on both sides.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 18, 2007)

chinto said:


> yes several articals by Kyoshi Gould and also from a search engine search. I also asked my sensei and was told the same.



I have never heard of Mr. Gould. Does he have some background that would qualify him has being knowledgeable in Okinawan Karate History?


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 18, 2007)

chinto said:


> well our Neihanchi kata start to the right.. so I dont think it came from  Motobu from what you say.   My guess is he learned them from either Bushi Matsumura as Kyoshi Gould said in his artical or from one of the few other instructors Kyan had. Matsomura perhaps?  As far as I know Ezio Shimubukuro learned his kata mainly from Kyan , chojin Miyagi and a little from Motobu.  but our Naihanchi open to the right and not the left, and you did say motobu opened his version to the left?



Motobu went both directions, both starting to the left and to the right.


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## punisher73 (Sep 18, 2007)

> Motobu went both directions, both starting to the left and to the right.


 

I thought I had heard/read that somewhere, but I couldn't remember so I didn't want to toss that out there.


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## chinto (Sep 19, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> I have never heard of Mr. Gould. Does he have some background that would qualify him has being knowledgeable in Okinawan Karate History?


 

yes sir he does, 
 Kyoshi Gould is the chief instructor for the shobayashi shorin ryu system in the USA. He studied for years under Hanchi Ezio Shimubukuro and holds the title Kyoshi and is a Nana Dan  who has studied the history of the system and karate in genreal for meany years.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 19, 2007)

chinto said:


> yes sir he does,
> Kyoshi Gould is the chief instructor for the shobayashi shorin ryu system in the USA. He studied for years under Hanchi Ezio Shimubukuro and holds the title Kyoshi and is a Nana Dan  who has studied the history of the system and karate in genreal for meany years.



Sorry, what does "chief instructor" mean or entail? Is he the sole representative for that style in the US? If so who appointed him?

"Hanchi Ezio Shimubukuro"? I think you mean "HanShi" and "ShimAbukuro".

Is this the same "shimabukuro" lineage that the founder claimed he learned certain techniques from a mermaid?

Can you verify where he studied karate history?


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## TimoS (Sep 19, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> Is this the same "shimabukuro" lineage that the founder claimed he learned certain techniques from a mermaid?



Kind of, yes. You're talking about his older brother, Tatsuo Shimabukuro, who according to legend got the inspiration for Isshin ryu in a dream. The mermaid or whatever it was appeared in his dream. And Tatsuo Shimabukuro was (one of) Eizo Shimabukuro's teacher(s). Eizo Shimabukuro himself says he was taught by e.g. Kyan, while others are saying that he learned his karate from his brother. Apparently there are differences between the brothers' styles, but as I've never seen either style in action, I can't say for sure


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## chinto (Sep 19, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> Sorry, what does "chief instructor" mean or entail? Is he the sole representative for that style in the US? If so who appointed him?
> 
> "Hanchi Ezio Shimubukuro"? I think you mean "HanShi" and "ShimAbukuro".
> 
> ...


 

no Shimabukuro.. sorry for the typo, is the younger brother to the founder of Isshin ryu. he was the top student of HanShi Kyan...   as to cheif instructor it means he is or at least was the primary person for Eizo Shimabukuro to go to for his orginazation for the style ( the association) to document rank and maintain the standerds of the style as tought in the United States of Amarica.

He studied it in okinawa and here while studing karate and requires all student to learn the linage and history of the style to a resonably high level. Unlike some styles who if you ask them the history or linage they have no clue and will tell you so.

I was informed _I may have mistakenly given the impression that I thought Motobu might have tought the Naihanchi kata to Osensei. If so I do apoligize. My intention was to aknowledge that it was a posiblity but as far as I know HanShi Eizo Shimabukuro learned all his kata except seianchin and sanchin kata from Chotoku Kyan. the kata Naihanchi shodan, Naihanchi Ni Dan and Naihanchi San Dan are part of the system of shobayashi shorin ryu  and as far as I know were learned from Master ( hanShi JuDan) Kyan._


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## chinto (Sep 19, 2007)

TimoS said:


> Kind of, yes. You're talking about his older brother, Tatsuo Shimabukuro, who according to legend got the inspiration for Isshin ryu in a dream. The mermaid or whatever it was appeared in his dream. And Tatsuo Shimabukuro was (one of) Eizo Shimabukuro's teacher(s). Eizo Shimabukuro himself says he was taught by e.g. Kyan, while others are saying that he learned his karate from his brother. Apparently there are differences between the brothers' styles, but as I've never seen either style in action, I can't say for sure


 
I think he may have trained with his brother Tatsuo when they both were students of Master Kyan... I am not awear of him sighting him as one of his instructors really, though it certianly is posible if not provable to a point, as an older brother would provably pass on some of his training to a younger brother if asked. but I would say tht at that time he was most provably a student of Kyan when that would have happend. It would not have been after he started Isshin ryu ( the style that Tatsuo Shimabukuro started )


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## TimoS (Sep 20, 2007)

chinto said:


> _the kata Naihanchi shodan, Naihanchi Ni Dan and Naihanchi San Dan are part of the system of shobayashi shorin ryu  and as far as I know were learned from Master ( hanShi JuDan) Kyan._



First and foremost of all: Kyan was most certainly not a judan, not even a shodan! He simply didn't have any rank! The ranks that people hold/held came after second world war, and by that time Kyan was already dead

And second, like I said previously, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi/Naihanci/how ever you want to spell it. Joen Nakazato, the founder Shorinji ryu Kyudokan and a student Kyan has confirmed this. If Kyan had taught those kata, why would Seibukan take them from elsewhere? Zenryo Shimabukuro didn't teach those, but his son Zenpo does and he learned them Chozo Nakama.

edit: Also, in Shorinji ryu Kyudokan, there is only one Naifanchi kata. Not entirely sure which, but I'm guessing Naifanchi shodan (I think I'll confirm that from guys who have visited Nakazato)


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## chinto (Sep 20, 2007)

TimoS said:


> First and foremost of all: Kyan was most certainly not a judan, not even a shodan! He simply didn't have any rank! The ranks that people hold/held came after second world war, and by that time Kyan was already dead
> 
> And second, like I said previously, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi/Naihanci/how ever you want to spell it. Joen Nakazato, the founder Shorinji ryu Kyudokan and a student Kyan has confirmed this. If Kyan had taught those kata, why would Seibukan take them from elsewhere? Zenryo Shimabukuro didn't teach those, but his son Zenpo does and he learned them Chozo Nakama.
> 
> edit: Also, in Shorinji ryu Kyudokan, there is only one Naifanchi kata. Not entirely sure which, but I'm guessing Naifanchi shodan (I think I'll confirm that from guys who have visited Nakazato)


 
well I will Ask and see what I can find out.. I may have missunderstood what I was told.. but Then again I may not have... I will have to find out.


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## chinto01 (Sep 20, 2007)

TimoS said:


> First and foremost of all: Kyan was most certainly not a judan, not even a shodan! He simply didn't have any rank! The ranks that people hold/held came after second world war, and by that time Kyan was already dead
> 
> And second, like I said previously, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi/Naihanci/how ever you want to spell it. Joen Nakazato, the founder Shorinji ryu Kyudokan and a student Kyan has confirmed this. If Kyan had taught those kata, why would Seibukan take them from elsewhere? Zenryo Shimabukuro didn't teach those, but his son Zenpo does and he learned them Chozo Nakama.
> 
> edit: Also, in Shorinji ryu Kyudokan, there is only one Naifanchi kata. Not entirely sure which, but I'm guessing Naifanchi shodan (I think I'll confirm that from guys who have visited Nakazato)



Just playing devils advocate here but is it possible that maybe Kyan Sensei taught different katas to different people at different times of his teaching? I do not want to start an argument just putting the thought out there.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## TimoS (Sep 20, 2007)

chinto01 said:


> Just playing devils advocate here but is it possible that maybe Kyan Sensei taught different katas to different people at different times of his teaching? I do not want to start an argument just putting the thought out there.



Interesting point, but then again considering that e.g. Zenryo Shimabukuro was with Kyan from 1930 until his death in 1945, so I would imagine that during those 15 years he would've seen and taught the kata. Also, Joen Nakazato and Tatsuo Shimabukuro were both junior to him. Tatsuo Shimabukuro started with Kyan in 1932 and Joen Nakazato in 1933 (I'm pulling these years from a finnish Seibukan site, but the original article seems to have been written by Dan Smith, who, I believe, is one of the Seibukan pioneers in USA)


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## chinto01 (Sep 20, 2007)

All good points. The one thing I have heard is that there was never any formal class times at Kyan Sensei's house/dojo. Therfore the conclusion may be drawn that people may have learned things from him at different times. As we all know the history of the arts is a bit foggy due to the lack of documentation so to say that an individual did not learn a form from a teacher may be not be entirely accurate.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## TimoS (Sep 20, 2007)

Very true. I guess the final truth, at least something everyone can agree on, is something that'll never be reached. The world of martial arts is unfortunately filled with big egos and big egos equals too often raising your own importance and downplaying the others (this is just a general observation and not directed at anyone)


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## chinto (Sep 21, 2007)

chinto01 said:


> Just playing devils advocate here but is it possible that maybe Kyan Sensei taught different katas to different people at different times of his teaching? I do not want to start an argument just putting the thought out there.
> 
> In the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


 

to me that is compleatly possible.. after all, even though he did not officially have as some one pointed out in one forum or other ...the  ( judan rank) from a japanese body he was considerd a master in skill and rank all the same obvously..  and I do know that some of the masters of karate on okinawa tought diferent kata to direrent students at times.... ( and I am no expert in history.. but I do love the history of all cultures and lands.. a bit of a historian at heart I guess )....
)


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## TimoS (Sep 21, 2007)

chinto said:


> the  ( judan rank) from a japanese body he was considerd a master in skill and rank all the same obvously..


In skill, without a doubt. In rank, well, kind of. What I mean is that back in Kyan's days none of the masters had rank and I don't think anyone back then had even a well structrized curriculum, they just taught you kata and applications. In fact, I seem to remember reading somwhere one of the first okinawans, if not the first, to be granted the judan was Eizo Shimabukuro. So in modern terms I think we can say that Kyan was at least equal to just about any legitimate 10. dan out there


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## Victor Smith (Sep 21, 2007)

If I may I'd like to offer a few comments about Naifanchi, Kyan and perhaps Isshinryu, which I've been studying for about 35 years.

Most of the karate reference books (such as John Sells work Unante I and II) list Naifanchi kata as one of Kyan's kata. But towards the end of 2005, Dan Smith (of the Seiubkan and originally a student of Shimabukuro Zenryo) explained that the source of much of that information came from is own lack of understanding. When he trained in Seibukan Naifanchi was one of their kata, and he assumed it came from Kyan Sensei, and never asked, but it's source was not Kyan, who did not teach the kata.

Another Okinawan stylist, Harri Davis, a student in the Joen Nakazato lineage, confirmed this. Nakazato also taught Naifanchi but it did not come from Kyan, but from a different instructor than the Seibukan source.

In face all of the Kyan descended groups, Matsubayshi from Nagamine, Isshinryu from Shimabuku Ezio, etc. include Naifanchi and all appear to have different sources.

Likely Kyan would have known the kata, even if only having seen it innumerable tims, but it was not part of his teaching. Yet all of his students who ended up teaching seem to have found it a source of value and included at least one of the 3 kata in their schools, perhaps as an Okinawan standard?

While there are 3 Naifanchi kata, in Isshinryu's case it is only an Isshinryu variation of the first one, Naifanchi sho-dan. The main difference is the kata begins stepping to the left, as opposed to most naifanchi/tekki versions that begin stepping to the right. 

Isshinryu is not alone as there are several other groups that do the same. Isshinryu's source may have been Motobu Chokoi (or it may not have been). The Japanese video of his son's performance has the kata performed in both directions, which is not illogical as the kata mid point just reverses the beginning 1/2 of the kata.  

Of course Isshinryu's version has other flourishes keeping with it's founders (Shimabuku Tatsuo's) vision, but the essence of Naifanchi remains.

The problem is most of this remaisn oral history. You can or cannot prove it from books or other internet discussions. But none of them constitute proof, especially as the true Okinawan tradition was NOT to document systems and history (a modern phenomena), and the truth was whatever your instructor told you.

As for the application potential of Naifanchi, that depends on what work you want to put into it, it can be nonexistent,  standard or very deep indeed. Yes the technique could be used on the ground (as any kata's technique could be). Isshinryu's founder had specific teachings to counter the mount in his students study of 'kumite'. But personally as i've found little reason to concern myself with grounding in my studies and teachings, I don't consider Naifanchi in that light.

On the whole I see the first line analysis of Naifanchi as being:
1. conters for striking
2. counters for grappling with a huge range of lower body attacks in the stepping potential of the kata.

Pehaps this is helpfu,

pleasantly,


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## harlan (Sep 21, 2007)

Hi, Victor. Can I ask a question? Asked to be shown Naihanchi this week, and in our Goju I think it's not really considered part of the 'classical' Goju kata. Maybe I missed it in the thread, but is this the one kata that it was decided on (at some meeting) would be a common kata to the various styles?

Thank you.


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## Victor Smith (Sep 21, 2007)

Harlan,

I wouldn't say it was decided at a meeting as a common kata, but on the systems that link back to pre 1890 (Pre Hiagonna Naha te) it seems to be one commonly found. That and the fact that Motobu made a name for himself as a fighter and he both focused on Naifanchi a great deal, wrote about it too, likely gave it more ooomph.

When Miyagi's training developed into Goju ryu, Sanchin became a core component. Naifanchi was somewhat in a similar mode, but it depended on the lineage. Funakoshi's training from Itsou (by his own writing) consisted of 3 years on Naifanchi Sho-dan, 3 years on Naifanchi Ni-dan and 3 years on Naifanchi San-dan.  Of course other lineage in Shorin ryu began with Seisan (as continues in Shimabuku Tatsuo's Isshinryu).

But it does seem to have been accepted, in that all of the schools eventually derived from Kyan included it.


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## Victor Smith (Sep 22, 2007)

Hi again,

Just to prove a point, the latest issue of the free Meibukan Magazine has just been published. It contains an article on Seibukan by John Sells and in it he describes Naifanchi clearly as a Kyan form.

I do think it is an old article that I've seen before but it brings up dueling references on the issue.

Enjoy the real world of the martial arts - the truth remains hidden <GRIN>


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## TimoS (Sep 22, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Of course other lineage in Shorin ryu began with Seisan (as continues in Shimabuku Tatsuo's Isshinryu).



I seem to remember hearing that Joen Nakazato's Shorinji ryu Kyudokan starts with Ananku


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## chinto (Sep 23, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Harlan,
> 
> I wouldn't say it was decided at a meeting as a common kata, but on the systems that link back to pre 1890 (Pre Hiagonna Naha te) it seems to be one commonly found. That and the fact that Motobu made a name for himself as a fighter and he both focused on Naifanchi a great deal, wrote about it too, likely gave it more ooomph.
> 
> ...


 

I could not say for the Isshin ryu style, but entill recently Shobayashi started with Seisan as the first kata. in recent years the fukyu kata were added so that a new student was not thrown into the deep end so to speek strait off.


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## chinto01 (Sep 23, 2007)

chinto said:


> I could not say for the Isshin ryu style, but entill recently Shobayashi started with Seisan as the first kata. in recent years the fukyu kata were added so that a new student was not thrown into the deep end so to speek strait off.


 
Chinto this is not the case with every shorin ryu school that follows Shimabukuro Sensei just to clarify.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## chinto (Sep 24, 2007)

chinto01 said:


> Chinto this is not the case with every shorin ryu school that follows Shimabukuro Sensei just to clarify.
> 
> In the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


 

I could not say.. been about ohh 8 or so years I guess since students started with Seisan kata as the first kata at our dojo...  Now as far as I know the progression of kata is the same in all the shobayashi shorin ryu dojo's now ... and as far as when the fukyu kata were interduced.. I dont know how uniform that was.


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## chinto01 (Sep 24, 2007)

chinto said:


> I could not say.. been about ohh 8 or so years I guess since students started with Seisan kata as the first kata at our dojo...  Now as far as I know the progression of kata is the same in all the shobayashi shorin ryu dojo's now ... and as far as when the fukyu kata were interduced.. I dont know how uniform that was.



I do not believe the fukyu kata were ever introduced to the organization. I also do not believe that Shimabukuro Sensei taught or knew these kata. So to paint with a broad brush that these kata were added to the shorin ryu system as taught by Shimabukuro Sensei is incorrect. These kata may have been added by individual dojos but have not been added to dojos that are in Shimabukuro Senseis organization.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 24, 2007)

I can only speak as to what I know:

The Fukyugata katas were introduced into the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu system to replace the Pinan and Naihanchi as beginners kata as Pinan and Naihanchi were considered to be too advanced to start with.  This has also been transferred over to the Shogen Ryu system.

Now, Matsubayashi study Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, but I have heard that there is a 3rd one out there somewhere?


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## chinto (Sep 24, 2007)

chinto01 said:


> I do not believe the fukyu kata were ever introduced to the organization. I also do not believe that Shimabukuro Sensei taught or knew these kata. So to paint with a broad brush that these kata were added to the shorin ryu system as taught by Shimabukuro Sensei is incorrect. These kata may have been added by individual dojos but have not been added to dojos that are in Shimabukuro Senseis organization.
> 
> In the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


 

well I could not say what is happening on the east coase, where as I remember you are located.. but at least on the west coast it seems to be something that has been done... that is all I can tell you.


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## chinto (Sep 24, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> I can only speak as to what I know:
> 
> The Fukyugata katas were introduced into the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu system to replace the Pinan and Naihanchi as beginners kata as Pinan and Naihanchi were considered to be too advanced to start with. This has also been transferred over to the Shogen Ryu system.
> 
> Now, Matsubayashi study Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, but I have heard that there is a 3rd one out there somewhere?


 
well there are 3 fukyu kata ... very very basic and simple, but do give some one with no clue a short step up before they tackle Seisan kata.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 24, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> I can only speak as to what I know:
> 
> The Fukyugata katas were introduced into the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu system to replace the Pinan and Naihanchi as beginners kata as Pinan and Naihanchi were considered to be too advanced to start with. This has also been transferred over to the Shogen Ryu system.
> 
> Now, Matsubayashi study Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, but I have heard that there is a 3rd one out there somewhere?


You are correct that there is a Fuykyugata San.  It was created by Ueshiro Sensei after the split between he and Nagamine Sensei.  The story I have heard was it was to designate between his group and Nagamine's.  However few Okinawan schools practice the kata but it is there.  Many more practice Fukyugata Ichi and Ni.  The Fukyugata kata's were also created by request of the Japanese ministry of education in the 1940's.  Fuykyugata Ichi was done by Nagamine Sensei and Fukyugata Ni was done by Miyagi Sensei from what my research says.


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## Ray B (Sep 24, 2007)

Fukyugata Ni is also know as Gekisai dai ichi in Goju circles.

In Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu, we have 5 Kihongata before we teach
Naihanchi Shodan. I then teach Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan) because I
believe it is an easier kata than Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan).


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 25, 2007)

In our school we teach the Fukyugata Ichi and Ni then the 5 Pinan then the 3 Naihanchi.  

Ray B: I also prefer teaching Pinan Nidan before Shodan, I find so many students can grasp Nidan so much quicker than they can Shodan.  Honestly of all the kata I study I probably work on Pinan Shodan the most and am the most displeased with that particular kata when it comes to my performance of it!​


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## Victor Smith (Sep 25, 2007)

The best source of information regarding the creation of the Fukyugata Kata is found at http://museum.hikari.us/  Search the site articles by author, for Charles Goodin and the article :The 1980 Karate Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata Promotional Kata.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 25, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> In our school we teach the Fukyugata Ichi and Ni then the 5 Pinan then the 3 Naihanchi.​
> 
> Ray B: I also prefer teaching Pinan Nidan before Shodan, I find so many students can grasp Nidan so much quicker than they can Shodan. Honestly of all the kata I study I probably work on Pinan Shodan the most and am the most displeased with that particular kata when it comes to my performance of it!​


I teach the kata the same way I just don't teach Pinan Nidan first I still teach shodan first but I learned it different Naihanchi Shodan then Pinan Shodan, Fukyugata Shodan, Pinan Nidan, Fukyugata Nidan, Pinan Sandan, Naihanchi Nidan, Pinan Yondan Naihanchi Sandan, Pinan Godan.


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## chinto01 (Sep 25, 2007)

chinto said:


> well I could not say what is happening on the east coase, where as I remember you are located.. but at least on the west coast it seems to be something that has been done... that is all I can tell you.



I am not trying to debate with you on this however these forms are not taught by Shimabukuro Sensei nor to my knowledge or to those in the current organization did he add these forms to the cirriculum, therefore it is not an east coast/ west coast thing. As I stated in a previous post these forms may have been added by an individual dojo or dojos without his knowledge. I just want to clarify to people that Shimabukuro Sensei has not adopted these kata to his system. 

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## chinto (Sep 25, 2007)

chinto01 said:


> I am not trying to debate with you on this however these forms are not taught by Shimabukuro Sensei nor to my knowledge or to those in the current organization did he add these forms to the cirriculum, therefore it is not an east coast/ west coast thing. As I stated in a previous post these forms may have been added by an individual dojo or dojos without his knowledge. I just want to clarify to people that Shimabukuro Sensei has not adopted these kata to his system.
> 
> In the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


 
I could not say on that. One of our brown belts went into the US Air Force and trained with Shimabukuro Sensei at his home dojo. I Know when he went there and showed him his sertificates of rank to san kyu that he was asked to show him his kata. He showed him all his kata, and was told " kata good, you  are brown belt, you train here with me."  I also know that he started at fukyu kata dai ich and worked his way up and Osensei did not object.. beyond that I can not coment.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 26, 2007)

chinto said:


> I could not say on that. One of our brown belts went into the US Air Force and trained with Shimabukuro Sensei at his home dojo. I Know when he went there and showed him his sertificates of rank to san kyu that he was asked to show him his kata. He showed him all his kata, and was told " kata good, you are brown belt, you train here with me." I also know that he started at fukyu kata dai ich and worked his way up and Osensei did not object.. beyond that I can not coment.


I think that most Okinawan Sensei are more concerned about good solid karate then much else.  If someone comes to them and show them something they are most likely to accept their rank if their karate is good and then work with them to make it better.


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## TimoS (Sep 26, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I think that most Okinawan Sensei are more concerned about good solid karate then much else.  If someone comes to them and show them something they are most likely to accept their rank if their karate is good and then work with them to make it better.



Not much experience with Okinawan sensei, but I think this is true. At least this is what happened to me. I made shodan couple of years ago and now about a month ago I transferred to Seibukan and I don't have start all over. I am still a shodan and at some later stage they'll confirm my shodan in the new style. This is because I need to learn quite a lot (bunkai etc.) and unlearn even more (just as an example, stances are deeper in Seibukan)


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## chinto01 (Sep 26, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I think that most Okinawan Sensei are more concerned about good solid karate then much else.  If someone comes to them and show them something they are most likely to accept their rank if their karate is good and then work with them to make it better.



I would agree with you  100%. Being a student of Shimabukuro Sensei however I just want to clarify that he does not teach these kata as part of his cirriculum. That is the only point I am making. It sounds to me like the person who went to see him already knew these forms and he in fact did not teach them to him.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 26, 2007)

I have trained with a couple instructors from Okinawa and they are more interested in ability then they are in rank.  I was talking to one instructor (through a translator) who told me that the way we look at rank and the way they look at rank is quite different.  To most (not all) Okinawans you're either a white belt (student) or a black belt (instructor).  All the other colours in between don't really mean much to them.  ​


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 26, 2007)

chinto01 said:


> I would agree with you 100%. Being a student of Shimabukuro Sensei however I just want to clarify that he does not teach these kata as part of his cirriculum. That is the only point I am making. It sounds to me like the person who went to see him already knew these forms and he in fact did not teach them to him.
> 
> In the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


Thank you I appreciate that.  I did not know until now that Shimabukuro Sensei did not teach those kata.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 26, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> I have trained with a couple instructors from Okinawa and they are more interested in ability then they are in rank. I was talking to one instructor (through a translator) who told me that the way we look at rank and the way they look at rank is quite different. To most (not all) Okinawans you're either a white belt (student) or a black belt (instructor). All the other colours in between don't really mean much to them.​


Thats pretty much always been my impression.


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## chinto (Sep 27, 2007)

chinto01 said:


> I would agree with you 100%. Being a student of Shimabukuro Sensei however I just want to clarify that he does not teach these kata as part of his cirriculum. That is the only point I am making. It sounds to me like the person who went to see him already knew these forms and he in fact did not teach them to him.
> 
> In the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


 

I am not disputeing that at all... I know Osensei was interested to see if the kata was correct as he was effectivaly a 3rd genreation student away from Osensei's direct instruction. He was not disatisfied with what he saw in the kata.  so the kata was not changed ( at least the ones that he teaches which aparently does not include the fukyu katas from what you have said. I am fairly sure if his saisan kata or say passai or chinto kata had been incorrect he would have had corrections.. did not aparantly.)


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 28, 2007)

Just curious who gave me this comment but didn't have the guts to sign it:

_
I have to disagree with your adittude toward harlan, try to use a little more tact. =)

_
Well "coward" I have to disagree with you. I have read "Harlan's" rubbish here and on other boards. 
Having read the comments she has posted on other boards and here and the replies to her comments it seems I am not alone in my assessment of Harlan. 
Maybe you would care to tell us who you are and why you value Harlan's opinion so much.


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## Sensei Payne (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't know who the person was who commented on you...but I would say that if someone posts something untrue and/or misinformed...It is the responsible thing to do to show that someone that they are incorrect with precise data and research, instead of treating them with distain or hurtful words...a simple "you are incorrect" and information showing why that person is incorrect is all that is needed.

I am sorry that someone tarnished your reputation, but someone such as yourself with such a strong martial arts background will be able to make up for it quite quickly....

Karate No Michi


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 28, 2007)

Sensei Payne said:


> I don't know who the person was who commented on you...but I would say that if someone posts something untrue and/or misinformed...It is the responsible thing to do to show that someone that they are incorrect with precise data and research, instead of treating them with distain or hurtful words...a simple "you are incorrect" and information showing why that person is incorrect is all that is needed.


 
  This is what I have done as anyone can see. 



Sensei Payne said:


> I am sorry that someone tarnished your reputation, but someone such as yourself with such a strong martial arts background will be able to make up for it quite quickly....
> Karate No Michi


 
  Thanks for the sniping comment. 
  I dont really care about the reputation thing its the cowardice approach as well as the uneducated comment that I found childish.


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## twendkata71 (Sep 29, 2007)

Hi Andrew, Fukyugata san was created by Ansei Ueshiro, in New York. He was the first Okinawan to teach Matsubayashi ryu in the US. His creation of this kata was supposedly the reason that he and O sensei Nagamine Shoshin parted ways and he was expelled from Osensei Nagamine's organization in the late 60's/early 70's.  The majority of Matsubayashi ryu people(as I am sure you know) do not practice the fukyugatasan kata unless they are from the Ueshiro lineage here in the states.









Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> I can only speak as to what I know:
> 
> The Fukyugata katas were introduced into the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu system to replace the Pinan and Naihanchi as beginners kata as Pinan and Naihanchi were considered to be too advanced to start with. This has also been transferred over to the Shogen Ryu system.
> 
> Now, Matsubayashi study Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, but I have heard that there is a 3rd one out there somewhere?


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Sep 29, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> Hi Andrew, Fukyugata san was created by Ansei Ueshiro, in New York. He was the first Okinawan to teach Matsubayashi ryu in the US. His creation of this kata was supposedly the reason that he and O sensei Nagamine Shoshin parted ways and he was expelled from Osensei Nagamine's organization in the late 60's/early 70's.  The majority of Matsubayashi ryu people(as I am sure you know) do not practice the fukyugatasan kata unless they are from the Ueshiro lineage here in the states.



Much obliged my friend for the A-rate information!


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## searcher (Sep 29, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> His creation of this kata was supposedly the reason that he and O sensei Nagamine Shoshin parted ways and he was expelled from Osensei Nagamine's organization in the late 60's/early 70's.


 

You want to talk about harsh.  We have developed many kata and our instructors have never reacted this way.   I can't imagine how I would feel or react if I were treated in this manor.


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## twendkata71 (Sep 30, 2007)

Many of the Old Sensei on Okinawa and Japan, are very strict about how their style is taught/passed on. If they do not ok something they will expell people even long time students. It happens from time to time.
Kanazawa added several Shito ryu,and Goju ryu kata to his Shotokan curriculum, as well as going to Okinawa and studying some Uechi ryu and Taichi and this was shunned by the JKA. I believe that he left on his own accord and started the SKI.
I wonder what Funakoshi Osensei's teachers thought of his changing all of the kata that he taught on the Japanese mainland?


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 30, 2007)

twendkata71 said:


> Many of the Old Sensei on Okinawa and Japan, are very strict about how their style is taught/passed on. If they do not ok something they will expell people even long time students. It happens from time to time.


 
  I trained in Okinawa for many years and never noticed them to be that strict. 



twendkata71 said:


> Kanazawa added several Shito ryu,and Goju ryu kata to his Shotokan curriculum, as well as going to Okinawa and studying some Uechi ryu and Taichi and this was shunned by the JKA. I believe that he left on his own accord and started the SKI.


 
  From what I have heard from my present teacher and seen with my own eyes anything ticks the JKA off. Basic policy states you are not allowed to train in other systems or styles, even kobudo. 



twendkata71 said:


> I wonder what Funakoshi Osensei's teachers thought of his changing all of the kata that he taught on the Japanese mainland?


 
  From what I have read in various books they weren&#8217;t too happy.


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## Victor Smith (Sep 30, 2007)

When Funakoshi went to Japan, Itosu, his primary teacher, had been dead for years. It was other Okinawan's who chose to send him and it was the Japanese that asked him to stay around.

As for the gradual process that ended up changing the shape of the karate he taught, he simply did what everyone on Okinawa did after all.  After all Itosu changed things didn't he. IN turn Funakoshi Sensei as the instructor and he did what he felt was correct.

If you take the time to track the changes of the kata across generations all of the Okinawans have fiddled with the kata. He saw nothing else over his years. For the student "Never change the kata" for the instructor "There are no rules". Which explains all of the differences such as 15+ patsai kata and so forth.

There are ways the Okinawan's could have cemented the shape of their form to not have them change. Their traditions didn't follow that path, nor does anyones in reality.

I'm not an advocate for Shotokan nor am I a detractor, for it is what it is, but really that's what all of it is after all.

I once met Shimabukuro Zempo (Seibukan) in 1985 and talking with him he tried to make the point how small Isshinryu was on Okinawa telling me "there are maybe 90 shorin dojo, 60 goju dojo and 3 isshin dojo". I understood his point from various perspectives, but many years later George Donahue explained to me "that's about right there are 90 shorin dojo and each of them is working different from each other."

Last year on the Cyber Dojo it was discussed that today there are about 240 dojo on Okinawa (and inrease from that 1985  number), and Dan Smith (also of the Seibukan) explained that about 75% of the students are children (where pre 1974 there were almost none).

It just points out change is the true constant.

Which, btw, is what looks like ticks the JKA off after all.

While you can pick up a modest rock with your bare hands, you don't get much water with the same lift. <GRIN>


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 30, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> When Funakoshi went to Japan, Itosu, his primary teacher, had been dead for years. It was other Okinawan's who chose to send him and it was the Japanese that asked him to stay around.


 
  Can you give the names and some actual accounts of Okinawan teachers asking Funakoshi to go to Japan? I have yet to see it. 

  Most people have claimed Funakoshi got some sort of engraved invite to teach in Japan by some lofting dignitary. I have never seen anything factual to support this. The only thing I have ever seen of him being asked to go to Japan was his friend that was working at a Japanese University got him a job as a gardener and said maybe he could teach karate to some of the students to try and spread the art. This invite came at a time when Funakoshi was going to be transferred to a remote island of Okinawa to teach school and didn&#8217;t want to go and therefore took his friend up on the invite to Tokyo.


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## ppko (Sep 30, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> Can you give the names and some actual accounts of Okinawan teachers asking Funakoshi to go to Japan? I have yet to see it.
> 
> Most people have claimed Funakoshi got some sort of engraved invite to teach in Japan by some lofting dignitary. I have never seen anything factual to support this. The only thing I have ever seen of him being asked to go to Japan was his friend that was working at a Japanese University got him a job as a gardener and said maybe he could teach karate to some of the students to try and spread the art. This invite came at a time when Funakoshi was going to be transferred to a remote island of Okinawa to teach school and didnt want to go and therefore took his friend up on the invite to Tokyo.


Wow where did you find this out at never heard this, also do you know of any reliable history sources on Tode (Karate)


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 30, 2007)

ppko said:


> Wow where did you find this out at never heard this, also do you know of any reliable history sources on Tode (Karate)



I read most of it in Funakoshi's book Karate Do My Way of Life.


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## Victor Smith (Sep 30, 2007)

The  accounts I've read was there was an invitation for the Okinawan's to present karate in Japan and that he was chosen to do so.

Look on the whole Okinawa did very little pre-WWII do document what happened. And bombing efforts of the Allies (mostly American) did its best to destroy what was on Okinawa, as well as a tremendous amount of its people.

I can't prove much  after all all oral accounts are suspicious, no matter which side they present, but everything I've read for my decades is the story I've presented.

Harry Cook wrote in his book 'Shotokan karate - a precise history' "Funakoshi was invited to demonstrate karate at the All Japan Athletic Exhibitiion held in Ochanomizu, Tokyo from 30 April to 30 May 1922."

Of course this isn't the factual proof you request. But as you're an undocumented indidivdual yourself why do your words carry more weight?

It's easy to flip out answers isn't it. At least, right or wrong, I try and document the sources I can find over 'oral argument'.

In the end does it matter? I'm not a Shotokan stylist, though I've trained with some who are superb at every level. But good exists many places.


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## ppko (Sep 30, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> I read most of it in Funakoshi's book Karate Do My Way of Life.


ok that explains things I have never read that, so that is what he says then.  Do you know of any realiable history sources on old karate


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 30, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> The accounts I've read was there was an invitation for the Okinawan's to present karate in Japan and that he was chosen to do so.


 
  Can you tell me where you read this?




Victor Smith said:


> Look on the whole Okinawa did very little pre-WWII do document what happened. And bombing efforts of the Allies (mostly American) did its best to destroy what was on Okinawa, as well as a tremendous amount of its people.


 
  Having lived on Okinawa I am painfully aware of this since there are several monuments that document it.




Victor Smith said:


> I can't prove much after all all oral accounts are suspicious, no matter which side they present, but everything I've read for my decades is the story I've presented.


 
  Which is why I was asking which author wrote the statements you were making.



Victor Smith said:


> Harry Cook wrote in his book 'Shotokan karate - a precise history' "Funakoshi was invited to demonstrate karate at the All Japan Athletic Exhibitiion held in Ochanomizu, Tokyo from 30 April to 30 May 1922."


 
  Yes, I have read that he was invited to do a demo in Tokyo as well. However, I have never found any proof of any Okinawan teacher(s) asking Funakoshi to go to Tokyo to spread the gospel (teach karate) in Tokyo. 



Victor Smith said:


> Of course this isn't the factual proof you request. But as you're an undocumented indidivdual yourself why do your words carry more weight?


 
  No need to get snippy. I was just asking where you got your information so I could read it myself. I am not sure what you mean by I am undocumented. Can you explain that phrase please?


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 30, 2007)

ppko said:


> ok that explains things I have never read that, so that is what he says then.  Do you know of any realiable history sources on old karate



I have a couple books in Japanese that I am in the process of translating. 
One is by Motobu and the other is called Karate Taikan by Funakoshi, Mabuni, etc


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## Victor Smith (Sep 30, 2007)

Sir,

Having quite a collection of martial literature from the past 30-40 years I'm too very suspicious of what is real, but except for what has been written what else is there?

I have tracked down an Okinawan source, try reading Nagamine Shoshin's "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters". He indicates that it was the Okinawan Prefectural Board of Education, that chose Funakohsi.

I do understand how difficult the issue must be if you are looking for something tangible, but who on Okinawa has documented things further?

Regardless of the reason Funakoshi, Mabuni, Myiagi, Motobu and more all ended up circling the Japanese martial establishment for recognition. Their early writings as well as efforts such as Nakasone's support, were to establish the value of the Okinawan arts.  

As far as my inference regarding you, its simply I tend to take individuals who don't share their names openly in discussion with a grain of salt. Perhaps it's a fault, but I work hard to try and understand and share as accurately as I can.

I would note there is often a tendency in karate-ka of all nationalites, including Okinawa, to take shots at each other. By naming oneself it is easier to understand our starting point.

But then I work hard to try and live up to my art and am proud of that.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Sep 30, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Sir,
> 
> Having quite a collection of martial literature from the past 30-40 years I'm too very suspicious of what is real, but except for what has been written what else is there?
> 
> ...



I thought my name was in my profile, I guess not. 
My name is Freddy Martinez, former US Marine, Okinawa.

When I spoke to Mr. Nagamine back in 1980 he confirmed what I wrote above about Funakoshi.


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## Victor Smith (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi, Nice to meet you.

You conversation with Nagamine Sensei is interesting, so he said one thing and wrote another. I can undrestand the 'politics' behind that, especially as he did train in Japan too, but it makes it difficult to become credible in either direction after all. Which is the right answer and how does one accept proof?

Beats me.

Except for those interested into trying to pin down the 'true' history it may not make much difference. Personally when I find contradiction, then everything is questionable. Unfortunately I did not have that conversation, so it is another open issue.

If there is any documentation I doubt it is on Okinawa, perhaps there is a surviving newspaper account of that demonstration that might have some information, but that's just speculation.

Frankly you probably has a much chance finding it as you have  of finding any real documetation of specific Chinese sources for the Okinawan arts.

There are political reasons why not to find them after all.

I would observe the history of the arts in the states is often no less obscure.


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## chinto (Oct 1, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> The accounts I've read was there was an invitation for the Okinawan's to present karate in Japan and that he was chosen to do so.
> 
> Look on the whole Okinawa did very little pre-WWII do document what happened. And bombing efforts of the Allies (mostly American) did its best to destroy what was on Okinawa, as well as a tremendous amount of its people.
> 
> ...


 
first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time. I personaly think that the Okinawans did not really trust that that would not come back into force till after WWII, and so they where by tradition, and for trust reasons I beleave, reluctent to document things till the after the end of WWII.
Please remember the historical record of Japan and the Japanese with every other ethnicity before the end of World War II. It is very much so not a happy thing to be a none Japanese under Japanese rule prior to the end of the Second World War!! Any ethnicity other then 'Native Ethnic Japanese' was seen as subhuman or worse in most if not every way. This is historical fact, not conjecture, or bies on my side, as things like the "rape of nanking" and meany other documented things in history show. 
I would say that any sorce of information for karate that is documented in period, ( pre WWII)  must be looked at for authenticity, and also for point of veiw and origan, with regards to how factual it may or may not be.


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## chinto (Oct 1, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> The accounts I've read was there was an invitation for the Okinawan's to present karate in Japan and that he was chosen to do so.
> 
> Look on the whole Okinawa did very little pre-WWII do document what happened. And bombing efforts of the Allies (mostly American) did its best to destroy what was on Okinawa, as well as a tremendous amount of its people.
> 
> ...


 
first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time. I personaly think that the Okinawans did not really trust that that would not come back into force till after WWII, and so they where by tradition, and for trust reasons I beleave, reluctent to document things till the after the end of WWII.
Please remember the historical record of Japan and the Japanese with every other ethnicity before the end of World War II. It is very much so not a happy thing to be a none Japanese under Japanese rule prior to the end of the Second World War!! Any ethnicity other then 'Native Ethnic Japanese' was seen as subhuman or worse in most if not every way. This is historical fact, not conjecture, or bies on my side, as things like the "rape of nanking" and meany other documented things in history show. 
I would say that any sorce of information for karate that is documented in period, ( pre WWII) must be looked at for authenticity, and also for point of veiw and origan, with regards to how factual it may or may not be. 
Aftar Funikoshi made his presentation to the Emporor in 1922 and it was excepted by the emporer, the level of scruteny is slighly lower, but before that if it is a Japanese sorce I would defenently find it suspect if not varified by some Okinawan sorce that was reputable.


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## TimoS (Oct 1, 2007)

chinto said:


> first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time



Yes, I've heard that also, but I've also heard that while it may have been illegal, the ban on karate was anything but enforced. I can't remember off-hand which quite famous karate teacher (I think it was Chibana) had to hide in the bushes while people were visiting his instructor. On the other hand, it was quite commonly known that they were practising karate, so it was a public secret


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## TimoS (Oct 1, 2007)

chinto said:


> Aftar Funikoshi made his presentation to the Emporor in 1922



Actually, Hirohito was back then still a crown prince, only later to become emperor


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## punisher73 (Oct 1, 2007)

> On the other hand, it was quite commonly known that they were practising karate, so it was a public secret


 
In the book, "Shotokan's Secret" (author is escaping me at the moment) he talks about the culture and how there were two "truths" what actually was and what was the public face of it.  It was very interesting to read and how it may apply to many of the things we know about karate and how to us they seem contradictory.


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## DavidCC (Oct 1, 2007)

If you go to this Amazon listing, you can actually browse inside the book itself!

Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters



And Shotokan's Secret: The Hidden Truth Behind Karate's Fighting Origins was written by Bruce Clayton.


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## Victor Smith (Oct 1, 2007)

Chinto,

You write, "first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time."

Would you qualify what time period you're talking about.

Karate itself arose from private practice in the mid 1800's and by the early 1900's became more open, a part of the practice began to be taught in some schools for phys ed, or in after school group settings.

In the 1930's the Okinawan's were working on new, simpler forms for teaching in a more public setting. The first set of 10 forms (published in Nakasone's Encyclopedia of Karate in 1938) do not appear to have ever been used but those developed at the request of the Special Promotional Committee (the two Fyugata kata) were put to use.

While the ban on martial studies that was ordered in Japan after WWII logically may have included the Okinawan's byt the late 40's Karate practice had resumed and in the 50's in both Okinawa and Japan the occupying military forces began to study the arts too.

Even the 'historical' Okinawan weapons ban has been put into doubt as a mistranslation of the Okinawan king just trying to centralize the weapons of his militia.

Are you referring to the time since Karate came into being, or are you talking about some earlier time and art?

thank you,


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## Ray B (Oct 3, 2007)

This whole secrecy thing is not completely true.
While it may be true for smaller family arts and Goju
to some extent, Shorin-ryu (Shuri-te and Tomari-te)
was a Royal art. Matsumura, Matsumora, Motobu, Kyan, and
Itosu were all Penchin. They could practice any time
they wanted. Chibana was known for being one of the 
"Last Great Bushi". By that time, Funakoshi was promoting
his Karate in Tokyo and Itosu was teaching in the public schools.

Regarding the book Shotokan's Secrets, keep in mind that this is
one man's theory. I do not agree with a lot of what this author says.
Try to get as many perspectives as possible.

Regarding Shotokan's effectiveness, I was talking to a Judoka
the other day. He wanted me to point out the difference between
Shorin-ryu and Shotokan. I made my statements but qualified it
by saying, even if Judo was a sport, it doesn't mean that you
couldn't still drop me on my head and kill me. Shotokan became
what it became for a reason, it was to be a Budo. It doesn't
mean that a "Shoto-ka" couldn't kick my ar$e.


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## chinto (Oct 6, 2007)

Victor Smith said:


> Chinto,
> 
> You write, "first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time."
> 
> ...


I was and am talking about the time of Karate's inception and initial development. especialy the satsuma invasion and fallowing period.  as to the late 1800's and early 20th century, you are talking post majii restoration and a lot of things changed drasticaly in japan, and as Okinawa was ocupied by the japanese in the form of the satsuma clan for a long time it also changed there in several respects. Some of them with out doubt good, but meany also for both the Okinawans and Japanese were not.... ( much of the foundation for what would become japanes sociaty and their version of the 'samurai code' of the late 1930's, and its militeristic thought stretching though the end of WWII were founded and set in that period)
there is no doubt that by then there was not the legal bar to the training in karate that had been a factor in the previous periods. But, that secracy and legal ban, that had been historicaly there in the early periods did contribute heavily to the lack of documentation on just about everything to do with early karate.


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