# My point about going a mile distance



## PhotonGuy

Sometime back I talked about if you had a mile distance you had to go and that if you ran the mile instead of just walking it that you would finish your mile sooner although you would have to work harder because running is harder work than walking. Some people said that for whatever reason they might not want to run the mile. Well what I was trying to say is that if you've got to get something done, working harder will get it done sooner and you save time, the tradeoff is that you have to work harder.

And if I repeat myself and keep saying the same thing over and over again well I thought patience was important in the martial arts, so we should use patience here.


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## ballen0351

yes


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## ballen0351

no


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## ballen0351

maybe


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## K-man

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometime back I talked about if you had a mile distance you had to go and that if you ran the mile instead of just walking it that you would finish your mile sooner although you would have to work harder because running is harder work than walking. Some people said that for whatever reason they might not want to run the mile. Well what I was trying to say is that if you've got to get something done, working harder will get it done sooner and you save time, the tradeoff is that you have to work harder.
> 
> And if I repeat myself and keep saying the same thing over and over again well I thought patience was important in the martial arts, so we should use patience here.


And of course by running you put added strain on your back and knees maybe causing damage. So the alternative might be, take your time, don't rush it and you will still arrive at the same destination.


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## PhotonGuy

K-man said:


> And of course by running you put added strain on your back and knees maybe causing damage. So the alternative might be, take your time, don't rush it and you will still arrive at the same destination.


Sure you will arrive but at a later time. Maybe you want to arrive at the destination and you want to arrive by a particular time.

A 100 yard dash would've been a better example to use than a mile.


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## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure you will arrive but at a later time. Maybe you want to arrive at the destination and you want to arrive by a particular time.
> 
> A 100 yard dash would've been a better example to use than a mile.


why not the 40 yard dash 100 is so far.


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## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> why not the 40 yard dash 100 is so far.


They don't have a 40 yard dash, at least they didn't when I did track in high school. The 100 yard dash is considered a sprint. 500 is middle distance and 1000 is long distance.


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## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> They don't have a 40 yard dash, at least they didn't when I did track in high school. The 100 yard dash is considered a sprint. 500 is middle distance and 1000 is long distance.


40-yard dash - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## Buka

Patience is important in Martial Arts, yes. I don't know if it's important here, but would probably smooth things at times. 

Of course there is something to be said for the antithesis, even if just for entertainment value.


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## K-man

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure you will arrive but at a later time. Maybe you want to arrive at the destination and you want to arrive by a particular time.
> 
> A 100 yard dash would've been a better example to use than a mile.


I like to be fashionably late. When I get there, the queue for the food is much shorter and those in front of me are all hot and sweaty.


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## ballen0351

K-man said:


> I like to be fashionably late. When I get there, the queue for the food is much shorter and those in front of me are all hot and sweaty.


I agree


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## Elbowgrease

What if you run backwards shadowboxing the whole way?


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## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometime back I talked about if you had a mile distance you had to go and that if you ran the mile instead of just walking it that you would finish your mile sooner although you would have to work harder because running is harder work than walking. Some people said that for whatever reason they might not want to run the mile. Well what I was trying to say is that if you've got to get something done, working harder will get it done sooner and you save time, the tradeoff is that you have to work harder.
> 
> And if I repeat myself and keep saying the same thing over and over again well I thought patience was important in the martial arts, so we should use patience here.


Not always.  I don't care how hard you work, if you're making bread, it only rises so fast.  If you're building a brick wall, and work twice as hard, and get twice as much brick laid, but don't allow enough time for the mortar to set properly, your wall isn't going to be as strong.  Or, if you work twice as hard to go the wrong way... All you've done is put yourself twice as far off course.

Sometimes, you just have to accept that things happened in the past, and leave them there.  If you spend all your time walking backwards, you'll miss the scenery in front of you -- and probably land on your *** when you trip over something.


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## ballen0351

Elbowgrease said:


> What if you run backwards shadowboxing the whole way?


your arms will get tired


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## Elbowgrease

5, 10 minutes? Going backwards anyway. If I can't do that there's something wrong.


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## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> 40-yard dash - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


Never had that in my highschool track.


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## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometime back I talked about if you had a mile distance you had to go and that if you ran the mile instead of just walking it that you would finish your mile sooner although you would have to work harder because running is harder work than walking. Some people said that for whatever reason they might not want to run the mile. Well what I was trying to say is that if you've got to get something done, working harder will get it done sooner and you save time, the tradeoff is that you have to work harder.
> 
> And if I repeat myself and keep saying the same thing over and over again well I thought patience was important in the martial arts, so we should use patience here.



If I remember correctly I believe you were using this to justify your disagreement with an old martial arts story about mastery and you were missing the point then and you still are as it applies to martial arts. As for running vs. walking.... It would depend on why you are going the mile.


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## PhotonGuy

K-man said:


> I like to be fashionably late. When I get there, the queue for the food is much shorter and those in front of me are all hot and sweaty.


Sometimes you might want to be late. As you said you don't want to be hot and sweaty and you don't have to wait in a long line for food. But you don't want to be too late otherwise there might not be any food left. Its all in the timing.


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## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> Not always.  I don't care how hard you work, if you're making bread, it only rises so fast.  If you're building a brick wall, and work twice as hard, and get twice as much brick laid, but don't allow enough time for the mortar to set properly, your wall isn't going to be as strong.  Or, if you work twice as hard to go the wrong way... All you've done is put yourself twice as far off course.
> 
> Sometimes, you just have to accept that things happened in the past, and leave them there.  If you spend all your time walking backwards, you'll miss the scenery in front of you -- and probably land on your *** when you trip over something.



There are some things that you can't rush otherwise you will ruin it and it will take longer. But, depending on what it is sometimes working harder will get you to your destination sooner.

And sometimes its good to look at the past, that's why they teach history in school.


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## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> If I remember correctly I believe you were using this to justify your disagreement with an old martial arts story about mastery and you were missing the point then and you still are as it applies to martial arts. As for running vs. walking.... It would depend on why you are going the mile.


Missing the point? And what point was that? And somebody going a mile might choose to walk it, as you said it depends on why they're walking it, that's why the 100 yard dash would be a better example.


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## drop bear

A terry pratchet quote i quite like.

“Witches are naturally nosy,” said Miss Tick, standing up. “Well, I must go. I hope we shall meet again. I will give you some free advice, though.”
“Will it cost me anything?”
“What? I just said it was free!” said Miss Tick.
“Yes, but my father said that free advice often turns out to be expensive,” said Tiffany.
Miss Tick sniffed. “You could say this advice is priceless,” she said, “Are you listening?”
“Yes,” said Tiffany.
“Good. Now...if you trust in yourself...”
“Yes?”
“...and believe in your dreams...”
“Yes?”
“...and follow your star...” Miss Tick went on.
“Yes?”
“...you’ll still be beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren’t so lazy. Goodbye.


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## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometime back I talked about if you had a mile distance you had to go and that if you ran the mile instead of just walking it that you would finish your mile sooner although you would have to work harder because running is harder work than walking. Some people said that for whatever reason they might not want to run the mile. Well what I was trying to say is that if you've got to get something done, working harder will get it done sooner and you save time, the tradeoff is that you have to work harder.



We all understood what you were trying to say. We were telling you that your idea wasn't actually applicable to martial arts the way you were intending it. It wasn't that we didn't understand, it's that it was not correct.



PhotonGuy said:


> And if I repeat myself and keep saying the same thing over and over again well I thought patience was important in the martial arts, so we should use patience here.



Yes, patience can be important, but patience is not the same thing as putting yourself through the same misery over and over with no development, improvement, or purpose. In other words, you typing out the same questions and ideas over and over again is not a case of "patience".



PhotonGuy said:


> Sure you will arrive but at a later time. Maybe you want to arrive at the destination and you want to arrive by a particular time.



Yeah… once again, we got what you were meaning, it just wasn't really applicable the way you meant it.



PhotonGuy said:


> A 100 yard dash would've been a better example to use than a mile.



Why? That simply makes it a race… which, again, is absolutely not anything to do with what you've been talking about.



PhotonGuy said:


> Sometimes you might want to be late. As you said you don't want to be hot and sweaty and you don't have to wait in a long line for food. But you don't want to be too late otherwise there might not be any food left. Its all in the timing.



Thing is… this also has nothing to do with your ideas… it was K-man showing an alternate viewpoint by using humour… and was not a serious take on your comments.



PhotonGuy said:


> There are some things that you can't rush otherwise you will ruin it and it will take longer. But, depending on what it is sometimes working harder will get you to your destination sooner.



Again, not applicable to the concept of martial arts you've been applying it to. 



PhotonGuy said:


> And sometimes its good to look at the past, that's why they teach history in school.



You look to the past, and study history, in order to learn from it… so you don't keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again.



PhotonGuy said:


> Missing the point? And what point was that? And somebody going a mile might choose to walk it, as you said it depends on why they're walking it, that's why the 100 yard dash would be a better example.



You've had it explained to you time and time again… but, broadly, martial arts are not a time-line pursuit, the idea of doing things to a schedule doesn't really work, applying the concept of a race is to entirely miss the point, and constantly repeating the same threads over and over again is not helping… it is not because you haven't gotten your point across, it's because we have understood your point, but it's been largely inaccurate.


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## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> Missing the point? And what point was that? And somebody going a mile might choose to walk it, as you said it depends on why they're walking it, that's why the 100 yard dash would be a better example.



I think that has been done to death in that post already so if you like go read it and refresh your memory. As for the 100 yard dash, that is still not "why" and now you have changed it from a mile to a 100 yard dash..... and you are still missing the point. But let me see if I can at least make myself clear to others.

By the way I think Chris was pretty clear but I will post at least some of what I am talking about...now..one final time to your OP



PhotonGuy said:


> Sometime back I talked about if you had a mile distance you had to go and that if you ran the mile instead of just walking it that you would finish your mile sooner although you would have to work harder because running is harder work than walking. Some people said that for whatever reason they might not want to run the mile. Well what I was trying to say is that if you've got to get something done, working harder will get it done sooner and you save time, the tradeoff is that you have to work harder.
> And if I repeat myself and keep saying the same thing over and over again well I thought patience was important in the martial arts, so we should use patience here.



Using your second example of a 100 yard dash and using running a mile to train...although training a mile is not the same as training a 100 yard dash.....

If I wanted to complete in a 100 yard dash and I decided that running was the way to go, and that I wanted to get to my goal as fast a possible (thereby only focusing on the goal) and, based on what you are saying, running is working harder so I will attain my goal faster. Add to that I am now training for a 100 yard dash so I need to run all out, as fast as possible, because  that is harder work than a simple run. Now I go out to my driveway and I am off..... I would be lucky if I got to the end of my driveway...I admit I have a long driveway, but not that long. Now that I have gone all out I am laying somewhere in my driveway because my knees gave out and now my goal focused "hard work" (aka kung  fu) has caused me roughly a 6 months setback because I am now in knee braces and walking with a cane again. And if I had gone to a trainer in the beginning and told him..."NO walking for me, I'm running, it is harder and will get me there quicker"... any good, self respecting trainer would have told me no... you need to build to it...basically you need to know how to walk before you can run

Now if I decide to run a 100 yard dash and I started by walking to build my knees and doing some other exercises I would likely be ready in 6 months to run the 100 yard dash. But my focus is not the 100 yard dash it is the work I need to do to get there. And it is very likely that walking, strengthening and running is what any trainer (teacher, sifu, sensei) would have me do. Were as your way would likely take me a year, or more.

To be honest I don't think your way is harder, I think it is looking for the easy way out or a quick fix. I think it is not wanting to do the work necessary to attain a goal that comes from lack of patience.


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## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> I think that has been done to death in that post already so if you like go read it and refresh your memory. As for the 100 yard dash, that is still not "why" and now you have changed it from a mile to a 100 yard dash..... and you are still missing the point. But let me see if I can at least make myself clear to others.
> 
> By the way I think Chris was pretty clear but I will post at least some of what I am talking about...now..one final time to your OP
> 
> 
> 
> Using your second example of a 100 yard dash and using running a mile to train...although training a mile is not the same as training a 100 yard dash.....
> 
> If I wanted to complete in a 100 yard dash and I decided that running was the way to go, and that I wanted to get to my goal as fast a possible (thereby only focusing on the goal) and, based on what you are saying, running is working harder so I will attain my goal faster. Add to that I am now training for a 100 yard dash so I need to run all out, as fast as possible, because  that is harder work than a simple run. Now I go out to my driveway and I am off..... I would be lucky if I got to the end of my driveway...I admit I have a long driveway, but not that long. Now that I have gone all out I am laying somewhere in my driveway because my knees gave out and now my goal focused "hard work" (aka kung  fu) has caused me roughly a 6 months setback because I am now in knee braces and walking with a cane again. And if I had gone to a trainer in the beginning and told him..."NO walking for me, I'm running, it is harder and will get me there quicker"... any good, self respecting trainer would have told me no... you need to build to it...basically you need to know how to walk before you can run
> 
> Now if I decide to run a 100 yard dash and I started by walking to build my knees and doing some other exercises I would likely be ready in 6 months to run the 100 yard dash. But my focus is not the 100 yard dash it is the work I need to do to get there. And it is very likely that walking, strengthening and running is what any trainer (teacher, sifu, sensei) would have me do. Were as your way would likely take me a year, or more.
> 
> To be honest I don't think your way is harder, I think it is looking for the easy way out or a quick fix. I think it is not wanting to do the work necessary to attain a goal that comes from lack of patience.



Well you also have to train smart. You don't want to try running a 100 yard dash before you're ready otherwise you'll just hurt yourself. But, you still have to do the work to build up your strength, skill, and speed to be able to do the 100 yard dash and if you train hard, within reason, you will be able to do it faster.


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## ballen0351

100 is too far I dont like walking to my mailbox


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## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> 100 is too far I dont like walking to my mailbox


Martial arts requires you to be in good shape, if you don't like walking to your mailbox you need to get in better shape.


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## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Martial arts requires you to be in good shape,.


says who


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## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> says who


Any good instructor will tell you that in order for martial arts to be effective you have to be in good shape, technique alone will not make you effective.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Sometime back I talked about if you had a mile distance you had to go and that if you ran the mile instead of just walking it that you would finish your mile sooner although you would have to work harder because running is harder work than walking. Some people said that for whatever reason they might not want to run the mile. Well what I was trying to say is that if you've got to get something done, working harder will get it done sooner and you save time, the tradeoff is that you have to work harder.
> 
> And if I repeat myself and keep saying the same thing over and over again well I thought patience was important in the martial arts, so we should use patience here.



Economy of movement works here. Working hard does not necessarily mean more output. The trick is to modify the stride. This applies to more than just running. Yeah most people would love to run a mile if they are told to take twenty minutes. Tell them you have four, most will baulk ta that. Some though, will modify the stride at the same workload. Economy of movement. It also takes great patience to do this, hence I agree with you, most will not. You obviously have a very patient mind, mine is chaos, but I see the symmetry in the thinking.


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## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> Any good instructor will tell you that in order for martial arts to be effective you have to be in good shape, technique alone will not make you effective.


nonsense


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## K-man

PhotonGuy said:


> Any good instructor will tell you that in order for martial arts to be effective you have to be in good shape, technique alone will not make you effective.


Being in 'good shape' is relative. Can some one at 65 be in 'good shape' compared to someone in 'good shape' at 35? In most cases the 35 year old will be in better shape. So how does the 65 year old cope against the 35 year old?


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## Tez3

K-man said:


> Being in 'good shape' is relative. Can some one at 65 be in 'good shape' compared to someone in 'good shape' at 35? In most cases the 35 year old will be in better shape. So how does the 65 year old cope against the 35 year old?




Old guy wins cos old and sneaky will beat young and fit every time!


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## K-man

Tez3 said:


> Old guy wins cos old and sneaky will beat young and fit every time!


And look on 'young and fit's face as he hits the deck is priceless!


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## Transk53

Looks like no dares to answer that


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## PhotonGuy

ballen0351 said:


> nonsense


If you really believe that than I am starting to doubt if you have much of any experience in the martial arts.


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## ballen0351

PhotonGuy said:


> If you really believe that than I am starting to doubt if you have much of any experience in the martial arts.


Nonsensical


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## PhotonGuy

K-man said:


> Being in 'good shape' is relative. Can some one at 65 be in 'good shape' compared to someone in 'good shape' at 35? In most cases the 35 year old will be in better shape. So how does the 65 year old cope against the 35 year old?


That depends. I know this guy who had grandparents who worked on a farm and in their 80s they were in better shape than lots of people are in their 40s. Much of that was because they were doing lots of manual labor which you do if you you do farm work. A couple of years ago there was a 46 year old man who got first place in some kind of ultra running competition, beating out all these people in their teens and twenties. Much of it has to do with exercising and keeping in good shape. Dying is inevitable we all die sometime or another, but you can be fit and take it to the grave if you work at it.
Now, being a good fighter is not simply a contest of whose the most fit. Technique also plays a role. I know a case of a man in his 60s who was attacked by three troublemakers in their late teens or early twenties. He took down two of them, the third one outran him. A less fit person can beat a more fit person with superior technique, skill, and strategy. You still do need to be in relatively good shape though, you can have good technique but you need gunpowder behind the technique to give it power, that's where being in good shape comes in.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Old guy wins cos old and sneaky will beat young and fit every time!


How about old, sneaky, and fit!


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## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> Any good instructor will tell you that in order for martial arts to be effective you have to be in good shape, technique alone will not make you effective.



This is another example of you speaking in absolutes again; "any good instructor" means that any instructor that says anything other is automatically "not good."  Is that really what you meant?


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Any good instructor will tell you that in order for martial arts to be effective you have to be in good shape, technique alone will not make you effective.


 
That's odd. I consdier myself a resaonably good instructor. And while I will agree that conditioning is a generally good thing for life in general, it is certainly NOT  mandatory to be effective at defending yourself.
I'm not in anything like the condition I wish I was, but it's been less than an hour since I put a person (who I doubt has any actual training other than as a badass gangbanger) half my age on the ground, tied up in a knot, till Security could arrive.


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## K-man

PhotonGuy said:


> A less fit person can beat a more fit person with superior technique, skill, and strategy. You still do need to be in relatively good shape though, you can have good technique but you need gunpowder behind the technique to give it power, that's where being in good shape comes in.


Almost right except for the gunpowder.   If I were to compete using strength, I would fail. Aikido and some other MAs teach you to be soft. You don't need strength then. As you get older certainly you can stay as healthy and fit as you can but you will never compete using strength alone.


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## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> This is another example of you speaking in absolutes again; "any good instructor" means that any instructor that says anything other is automatically "not good."  Is that really what you meant?


If any instructor of the martial arts said that you don't have to be in good shape to be effective in the martial arts, that technique alone would do it, I would not train under such an instructor. It can be a misconception among non martial artists that all you need is technique and you don't have to be in good shape, but anybody who has decent experience in the martial arts, certainly somebody who is experienced enough to teach should know that you have to be in good shape too. Thats why martial arts classes usually involve calisthenics. An instructor who says otherwise I would not trust.


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> That's odd. I consdier myself a resaonably good instructor. And while I will agree that conditioning is a generally good thing for life in general, it is certainly NOT  mandatory to be effective at defending yourself.
> I'm not in anything like the condition I wish I was, but it's been less than an hour since I put a person (who I doubt has any actual training other than as a badass gangbanger) half my age on the ground, tied up in a knot, till Security could arrive.


If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.


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## PhotonGuy

K-man said:


> Almost right except for the gunpowder.   If I were to compete using strength, I would fail. Aikido and some other MAs teach you to be soft. You don't need strength then. As you get older certainly you can stay as healthy and fit as you can but you will never compete using strength alone.


Well obviously you do need more than strength. You also need skill and technique. The very idea behind some martial arts is to be able to defeat a larger, stronger opponent. But even arts such as Aikido require you to do techniques over and over again in training which does require endurance. And while not all martial arts might require much brute strength, the kind of strength for lifting lots of weight or for outstrengthening somebody, they do require the kind of strength that somebody in ballet or gymnastics needs to be able to move their body the way they do.


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## K-man

PhotonGuy said:


> If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.


Because he *was* preparing for a fight! He was preparing to take on another world class athlete. That is totally different to the average person who is learning a martial art. If you are training MMA and wanting to compete in the ring your training will be totally different to mine. I am not anticipating a fight anytime soon so I don't require the same level of peak fitness.


PhotonGuy said:


> But even arts such as Aikido require you to do techniques over and over again in training which does require endurance. And while not all martial arts might require much brute strength, the kind of strength for lifting lots of weight or for outstrengthening somebody, they do require the kind of strength that somebody in ballet or gymnastics needs to be able to move their body the way they do.


Again there is different types of training. In Aikido there is absolutely no way I could do the rolls and falls that the younger guys do. And in Aikido I don't require any strength at all to perform the techniques. That's right .... zero strength. I used to be a gymnast and I can assure you I have about 30% of the strength and 20% of the fitness I had 50 years ago.


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## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.



Because he was competing against world class athletes.

Don't get me wrong, being in good shape will help, I am a huge advocate for strength training and aerobic and anaerobic fitness, but it isn't "necessary" for self-defense training.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.


Because he was preparing for a competitive sparring match against a world class athlete. 
Pretty much nothing to do with actual self defense. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Tez3

An
QUOTE="PhotonGuy, post: 1676312, member: 30963"]There are some things that you can't rush otherwise you will ruin it and it will take longer. But, depending on what it is sometimes working harder will get you to your destination sooner.

And sometimes its good to look at the past, that's why they teach history in school.[/QUOTE]

Ah but history was written by the victors so much of what you learn isn't actually true.


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## Elbowgrease

It's about so much more than just fitness, self defense, technique... 
For every single person that ever has or will pursue martial arts on any level for any reason, There will be at least that many reasons for pursuing martial arts. Some may be more valid than others, some might be completely ridiculous. 
Well, overall fitness is good, but I've seen people use martial arts to learn how to walk again after serious spinal injuries. I've seen an elderly couple (in their 90's) use it as a way to get closer to each other. What are you trying to do with your martial arts? That's what you've got to train for.


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## PhotonGuy

K-man said:


> Because he *was* preparing for a fight! He was preparing to take on another world class athlete. That is totally different to the average person who is learning a martial art. If you are training MMA and wanting to compete in the ring your training will be totally different to mine. I am not anticipating a fight anytime soon so I don't require the same level of peak fitness.


A street confrontation or self defense situation can happen at any time. Its not like sport fighting where the events are planned out in advance and you know when you will go in to compete. When a real fight happens and you have to defend yourself usually there is no planning and there is no notice beforehand so to be prepared I would say its best to anticipate the possibility of a fight at any time. If you know about the Cooper Color Codes stay in the yellow. And that includes keeping yourself in decent enough shape in case you do have a confrontation. Be prepared, that's the scout motto.



K-man said:


> Again there is different types of training. In Aikido there is absolutely no way I could do the rolls and falls that the younger guys do. And in Aikido I don't require any strength at all to perform the techniques. That's right .... zero strength. I used to be a gymnast and I can assure you I have about 30% of the strength and 20% of the fitness I had 50 years ago.


Zero strength? If you used absolutely zero strength you wouldn't even be moving. To move at least requires some strength. Maybe not as much as a seasoned gymnast but it does require some strength.


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## tshadowchaser

heck I have had a stroke and I'm pushing 70 in a year or so, my ability to do the calisthenics I once did is gone, I've even added 10 pounds of fat in the last year.  So I would say I am not in great condition.  Dose that mean with my 45 -50 years of training and experience I can not teach a class with any knowledge or competency?

Yes I want my students to get in shape not only because it might make the better fighters but it improves their health . Can I instruct a person that is out of shape to defend themselves . Yep I do it almost every class and some have come back after years away to say the knowledge and training got them out of messy situations.


----------



## K-man

PhotonGuy said:


> A street confrontation or self defense situation can happen at any time. Its not like sport fighting where the events are planned out in advance and you know when you will go in to compete. When a real fight happens and you have to defend yourself usually there is no planning and there is no notice beforehand so to be prepared I would say its best to anticipate the possibility of a fight at any time. If you know about the Cooper Color Codes stay in the yellow. And that includes keeping yourself in decent enough shape in case you do have a confrontation. Be prepared, that's the scout motto.[/QUOTEI do know the colour codes. If you stick to yellow you will hardly even leave your house! Always prepared though.
> 
> 
> 
> PhotonGuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Zero strength? If you used absolutely zero strength you wouldn't even be moving. To move at least requires some strength. Maybe not as much as a seasoned gymnast but it does require some strength.
> 
> 
> 
> Umm! You didn't read what I wrote. I said 'zero strength', not 'zero effort'. Subtle difference.
Click to expand...


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> Being in 'good shape' is relative. Can some one at 65 be in 'good shape' compared to someone in 'good shape' at 35? In most cases the 35 year old will be in better shape. So how does the 65 year old cope against the 35 year old?



they don't that is why fighters careers are pretty short.


----------



## drop bear

Blindside said:


> Because he was competing against world class athletes.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, being in good shape will help, I am a huge advocate for strength training and aerobic and anaerobic fitness, but it isn't "necessary" for self-defense training.



but you are just lowering the bar there and that is not really the point. Yes you can do martial arts and not be fit. But if you want to go up against a world class athlete you should be.

being fit will make you a better martial artist.

so you can judge the quality of a martial artist by his fitness. And in real defensive terms you do not want to gas out before you fight is over.


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> they don't that is why fighters careers are pretty short.


I'd love to see you in one of our classes. You might just get a rude shock.  You are talking about sport and in that situation, I agree. I know a number of 60+ people you wouldn't want to tangle with.


drop bear said:


> but you are just lowering the bar there and that is not really the point. Yes you can do martial arts and not be fit. But if you want to go up against a world class athlete you should be.
> 
> being fit will make you a better martial artist.
> 
> so you can judge the quality of a martial artist by his fitness. And in real defensive terms you do not want to gas out before you fight is over.


You can't tell the quality of a martial artist by his fitness. That is plain ridiculous. How about a world class gymnast who has been training a martial art for three months? He's very fit but he barely knows the basics of the art. 

I'm not lowering the bar at all. In real defensive terms, most fights don't last long and even trained people going flat out don't last long. In a sport situation, fighters pace themselves. You can't do that on the street. 

But I'm not advocating you don't keep reasonably fit. Obviously that is what we all want to do, but as you get older you change your approach to training and fighting, and if you stick around for long enough you might understand what I mean.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.



Believe Sammo Hung would be a good illustration of someone not being in shape, but very effective.


----------



## Cirdan

Well you can go as many miles you like, but if you are stuck in the penalty loop you are not really going anywhere until you figure how to get out of there.


----------



## K-man

I think we might all be in the penalty loop!


----------



## Cirdan

K-man said:


> I think we might all be in the penalty loop!



Agreed but some step in and out by choise or trying to help those who can`t find the exit.

_*"There must be some kind of way out of here, "
Said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief.



*_


----------



## Tez3

I will happily stay in the penalty loop as long as these guys are there...not that they are often but I'll happily wait till they are.


----------



## K-man

Tez3 said:


> I will happily stay in the penalty loop as long as these guys are there...not that they are often but I'll happily wait till they are.


That's me, second from the left.


----------



## Cirdan

Hi Tez don`t you dare wear out our boys before the season is over, they still have gold medals to win for mother Norway!


----------



## Cirdan

Our ice hockey players on the other hand are stuck in the penalty box all the time so just help yourself...


----------



## Shai Hulud

I find that a light jog finished off with a very brief burst of sprinting at the end works well for me.


----------



## drop bear

K-man said:


> I'd love to see you in one of our classes. You might just get a rude shock.  You are talking about sport and in that situation, I agree. I know a number of 60+ people you wouldn't want to tangle with.
> You can't tell the quality of a martial artist by his fitness. That is plain ridiculous. How about a world class gymnast who has been training a martial art for three months? He's very fit but he barely knows the basics of the art.
> 
> I'm not lowering the bar at all. In real defensive terms, most fights don't last long and even trained people going flat out don't last long. In a sport situation, fighters pace themselves. You can't do that on the street.
> 
> But I'm not advocating you don't keep reasonably fit. Obviously that is what we all want to do, but as you get older you change your approach to training and fighting, and if you stick around for long enough you might understand what I mean.



you just lowered the bar again. Most fights are short so you don't have to be fit. Fair enough. But you are training for a short fight.


----------



## PhotonGuy

The thing is, martial arts itself will get you in good shape. One of the reasons some people take up martial arts is to get in good shape. It is not uncommon for a person following a martial arts workout to be drenched with sweat. Doing techniques and combinations over and over again it is going to wear you out but build you up. So, for a person to get good at the martial arts, in the course of getting good they will get in good shape.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> The thing is, martial arts itself will get you in good shape. One of the reasons some people take up martial arts is to get in good shape. It is not uncommon for a person following a martial arts workout to be drenched with sweat. Doing techniques and combinations over and over again it is going to wear you out but build you up. So, for a person to get good at the martial arts, in the course of getting good they will get in good shape.



That is down to the individual. Most classes I have attended, the cardio bit if you will, was down to the student.


----------



## Elbowgrease

You kind of need to broaden your perception of martial arts. In my opinion. You have to consider psychological aspects as well. Psychological warfare is a powerful and important aspect of martial arts. It has to be considered. It doesn't necessarily require physical fitness, although that might help, but can in some cases be even more effective than the physical side of things. I haven't been in a physical fight in more than a decade, and I'm proud of that. I have ended or averted quite a few before they got to that point, though, and I'm proud of that. I'm also still alive, and not in prison. Doesn't mean I can't fight. Doesn't mean that I don't want to. I love to fight. There is no time that I feel more alive than when I'm fighting for my life and seriously trying to end someone else's. I've been fighting for my life since before I was in grade school. You don't even want to know. Doesn't mean I'm going to win all of them. There is always someone out there bigger, badder, faster, meaner, whatever. I can fight like a demon. I'm not terribly fit right now, but I'll give anybody that comes along one hell of a workout before I go down. But it usually doesn't come to that, and if it can be avoided it's even better. That is (in my opinion) the real purpose of studying martial arts, learning how to win without ever coming to blows. 

"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."


----------



## K-man

drop bear said:


> you just lowered the bar again. Most fights are short so you don't have to be fit. Fair enough. But you are training for a short fight.


You have a very simplistic attitude. I'm not training for any fight. If I was training for a serious fight I would train accordingly and I would taper and do all those things. My last tournament was when I was 58 and I got through to the second round. I was reasonably fit but I hadn't trained specifically for that tournament. These days I'll leave the sport stuff to guys like you.  In the unlikely event I ever need to use my skills someone will probably get a nasty surprise. They won't be expecting to be fighting an old guy and I won't be fighting tournament style.


----------



## Transk53

Elbowgrease said:


> You kind of need to broaden your perception of martial arts. In my opinion. You have to consider psychological aspects as well. Psychological warfare is a powerful and important aspect of martial arts. It has to be considered. It doesn't necessarily require physical fitness, although that might help, but can in some cases be even more effective than the physical side of things. I haven't been in a physical fight in more than a decade, and I'm proud of that. I have ended or averted quite a few before they got to that point, though, and I'm proud of that. I'm also still alive, and not in prison. Doesn't mean I can't fight. Doesn't mean that I don't want to. I love to fight. There is no time that I feel more alive than when I'm fighting for my life and seriously trying to end someone else's. I've been fighting for my life since before I was in grade school. You don't even want to know. Doesn't mean I'm going to win all of them. There is always someone out there bigger, badder, faster, meaner, whatever. I can fight like a demon. I'm not terribly fit right now, but I'll give anybody that comes along one hell of a workout before I go down. But it usually doesn't come to that, and if it can be avoided it's even better. That is (in my opinion) the real purpose of studying martial arts, learning how to win without ever coming to blows.
> 
> "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."



I completely agree with that fella  Very good reply, thankyou.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> That is down to the individual. Most classes I have attended, the cardio bit if you will, was down to the student.


Even as a white belt when I was 12, by the time training ended I had really worked up a sweat. Just from doing the drills.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Elbowgrease said:


> That is (in my opinion) the real purpose of studying martial arts, learning how to win without ever coming to blows.



I agree. I would say its best to have it so that nobody will bother you, so you won't have to fight.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Even as a white belt when I was 12, by the time training ended I had really worked up a sweat. Just from doing the drills.



Probably because you went in too fast.


----------



## Chris Parker

There's some interesting ideas here, which might benefit from highlighting and expanding...



PhotonGuy said:


> Well you also have to train smart. You don't want to try running a 100 yard dash before you're ready otherwise you'll just hurt yourself. But, you still have to do the work to build up your strength, skill, and speed to be able to do the 100 yard dash and if you train hard, within reason, you will be able to do it faster.



Okay, cool… here's where your analogy falls apart. You've been using the end result (running a mile, or a 100 yard dash) as an analogy for attaining a goal in martial arts (a black belt). Thing is, completing or competing in a race isn't the same as attaining a developed skill… in those cases, it's a one-off event. Unless you're considering attaining a black belt as a one-off (you do the test one day, and if you want to be a black belt another day, you have to do the test again… and again… and again…), it's really nothing alike. 

Where it can be similar is in the training. Running the race isn't the similarity… it's training to be able to run the race. To take it back to your "mile" idea, if the goal (developed skill) was to run the mile in less than 10 minutes, then the development isn't to run it once, it's to train so that you can do that consistently… then, of course, you continue to train to be able to run it in 9 minutes… until you can do that consistently… then 8 minutes… and so on. You could take each minute as a new development (rank) if you want… but the important thing is that it's the training to be able to run, not the running itself.



PhotonGuy said:


> Martial arts requires you to be in good shape, if you don't like walking to your mailbox you need to get in better shape.



Some will require it (particularly sporting systems), some will encourage it, some won't pay it too much attention at all… it depends on the art… as well as exactly how you're defining "good shape". The form of fitness and strength required for Kyudo is different to that required for Iaido… which is wildly different than for Judo… which is different again to MMA.



PhotonGuy said:


> Any good instructor will tell you that in order for martial arts to be effective you have to be in good shape, technique alone will not make you effective.



Uh, nope. You're painting too thin a line with too broad a brush.

It's safer to say that any good instructor will tell you what is best suited for development in their art… which might have a fitness component, a fitness emphasis, or not have any real mention of fitness at all… then, of course, you have to understand what "fitness", or "good shape" is relative to the system itself. To take it to an extreme, I don't need the same flexibility in my legs for Kyudo than I did when I did TKD… and I use different muscle groups in my arms and shoulders for Iai than I do for Kyudo… 



PhotonGuy said:


> If you really believe that than I am starting to doubt if you have much of any experience in the martial arts.



I'd be a little careful stating such things… especially when Ballen was much more on the ball than you were.



PhotonGuy said:


> That depends. I know this guy who had grandparents who worked on a farm and in their 80s they were in better shape than lots of people are in their 40s. Much of that was because they were doing lots of manual labor which you do if you you do farm work. A couple of years ago there was a 46 year old man who got first place in some kind of ultra running competition, beating out all these people in their teens and twenties. Much of it has to do with exercising and keeping in good shape. Dying is inevitable we all die sometime or another, but you can be fit and take it to the grave if you work at it.



Yep, lifestyle and conditioning can be a big part of what constitutes "good shape"… and I get what you're saying here… but again, I'd point out that "good shape" can be highly dependant on a range of other factors, including what you're in good shape for.



PhotonGuy said:


> Now, being a good fighter is not simply a contest of whose the most fit. Technique also plays a role. I know a case of a man in his 60s who was attacked by three troublemakers in their late teens or early twenties. He took down two of them, the third one outran him. A less fit person can beat a more fit person with superior technique, skill, and strategy. You still do need to be in relatively good shape though, you can have good technique but you need gunpowder behind the technique to give it power, that's where being in good shape comes in.



Actually, no, not really. Some of the best "fighters" (bar-room brawlers) are what might be considered in rather bad shape… overweight, beer-conditioned bellies, no real cardio to speak of… but they know how to hit very, very hard. Typically with only one or two "techniques"… but that's really all they need. The fights don't last long enough to really require being in "good shape".



PhotonGuy said:


> If any instructor of the martial arts said that you don't have to be in good shape to be effective in the martial arts, that technique alone would do it, I would not train under such an instructor.



You're taking too black and white a position here… for one thing, I don't anyone who would argue against physical fitness and health having benefits, particularly not to the point of saying "you don't have to be fit, you just need good technique".

Realistically, the argument is that competition-level fitness isn't necessarily required for a number of martial arts… you don't have to be an absolute gym-rat in order to gain effective skill. As I tell my guys, if strength and fitness were the big deciding factors in what we did, we'd spend half the session doing weights, and the other half doing cardio… and maybe look at some technique for a few minutes. Of course, that's not what we do… we spend a short amount of time in preparatory stretches, but that's about it… the rest of the time is focused on learning the art… which is technical execution… aiming to minimise the strength needed.



PhotonGuy said:


> It can be a misconception among non martial artists that all you need is technique and you don't have to be in good shape, but anybody who has decent experience in the martial arts, certainly somebody who is experienced enough to teach should know that you have to be in good shape too.



Hmm, anybody who has decent experience? Where does my three decades sit there? How about the range of systems I've trained in or been exposed to? Is that decent enough?

My point is that what you're talking about here is not the reality. I encourage my guys to be invested in their own fitness… I have my own schedules of workouts and strength training that I go through, on top of my training of the techniques… and sure, I sometimes take my guys through a workout that taxes them, and has them question just how "fit" they are… but little of that is to do with the actual martial arts side of things. And, of course, once again, "good shape" is highly relative… 



PhotonGuy said:


> Thats why martial arts classes usually involve calisthenics. An instructor who says otherwise I would not trust.



Hmm… not really a feature of any of my sessions…. which, again, is just another way of saying that whether or not you trust it, it's the reality.



PhotonGuy said:


> If being in good shape wasn't necessary for being effective in the martial arts than why was Royce Gracie doing all these weightlifting exercises when he was preparing for a fight? Years back Royce wrote a magazine article talking about all the exercises he would do at the gym with weights in preparation for a fight.



As others have said, because he was preparing for a fight… against trained, skilled, fit competitors... which is not the reality (especially not at an elite level) for many martial artists.



PhotonGuy said:


> Well obviously you do need more than strength. You also need skill and technique.



Close. You need skill and technique above strength.



PhotonGuy said:


> The very idea behind some martial arts is to be able to defeat a larger, stronger opponent.



Yes… but, and here's the bit that'll get you, technique, strength, and fitness are only parts of the story… and honestly, the less important parts… 



PhotonGuy said:


> But even arts such as Aikido require you to do techniques over and over again in training which does require endurance.



It can do… but that's not the point of that training… as well as it only really coming up if you train the methods in a particular way. In some Japanese arts, there is the concept of hyaku training (training a single movement or technique for 100 repetitions). And yeah, that can certainly require some endurance/cardio (but not necessarily the same as that needed to make it through 3 x 5 minute rounds in an MMA contest), that's not really what it's about (physically). Additionally, the repetition might be 5 times a day, for 10 years… you don't need much fitness or endurance to do that.



PhotonGuy said:


> And while not all martial arts might require much brute strength, the kind of strength for lifting lots of weight or for outstrengthening somebody, they do require the kind of strength that somebody in ballet or gymnastics needs to be able to move their body the way they do.



Yep, this is where we're getting into different forms of "fitness"… of course, the gymnast's form of fitness isn't going to be universally required either… 



PhotonGuy said:


> A street confrontation or self defense situation can happen at any time. Its not like sport fighting where the events are planned out in advance and you know when you will go in to compete.



Okay, let's get into this… earlier you asked why Royce Gracie was weight training prior to his fights (specifically for the first UFC events, which were multiple fights on a single night), to which people pointed out that he was training for that (sport event) fight… now here, you're acknowledging the differences between such contexts and situations… however, I feel that you're still missing a couple of aspects here.

First off, let's look at why the preparation for each is different… starting with the sports event. As you noted, you get a fair amount of advance notice of an upcoming fight (in most cases). That allows you to do something that self defence training doesn't… give you specific preparation. You can focus your training specifically towards the upcoming event… training for a specific (known) opponent, at a specific (known) time, in a specific (known) place, with a specific (known) set of circumstances and rules, dealing with a  specific (known) set of physical skills and tactics, and so on.

In this situation, it really is to your advantage to train specifically in any form that will give you an advantage… which includes training up to the event to ensure you will be in peak condition when it occurs (fitness, cardio, strength, health etc).



PhotonGuy said:


> When a real fight happens and you have to defend yourself usually there is no planning and there is no notice beforehand so to be prepared I would say its best to anticipate the possibility of a fight at any time.



Okay, so we looked at what is an average preparation for a sporting event, a known activity against a known opponent etc… however, as you point out here, that's not what we're dealing with when looking at self defence training methods. So let's look at that…

A real encounter/fight/defensive situation has little to no lead up time… there isn't any opportunity to go through any specific preparation, so your preparation needs to be far more general. You can't train for specific attacks or tactics, as there are a huge range of possibilities. Additionally, the type of training for a sporting event, aiming at a peak level, simply doesn't work for a constant level… your body can't sustain such a peak. That's why matches are months apart for professional fighters… you need recovery time.

Being prepared is one thing… operating at a sports-fight readiness at all times is a one-way track to a an early heart attack through stress (mental and physical)… additionally, you simply can't be prepared for every possibility at all times… and being prepared for one particular response means that you'll miss everything else, or react completely inappropriately to other situations.



PhotonGuy said:


> If you know about the Cooper Color Codes stay in the yellow. And that includes keeping yourself in decent enough shape in case you do have a confrontation. Be prepared, that's the scout motto.



Well, we've covered (and re-covered) that martial arts aren't the Scouts… but no, staying in the yellow doesn't mean that you need to be constantly "fight ready"… it is simply "relaxed awareness"… that can change depending on where you are (a dark alley versus at the office at work). And, again, in a self defence context, being in yellow doesn't mean that you need to spend each day focused on fighting fitness… but it does mean that you need to be aware enough to be able to react, should you need to.



PhotonGuy said:


> Zero strength? If you used absolutely zero strength you wouldn't even be moving. To move at least requires some strength. Maybe not as much as a seasoned gymnast but it does require some strength.



Kinda… it requires enough to maintain tension… and some do require more strength than that… but that's not really what K-man was saying, of course… 



PhotonGuy said:


> The thing is, martial arts itself will get you in good shape.



Maybe, but not necessarily. 



PhotonGuy said:


> One of the reasons some people take up martial arts is to get in good shape.



For some, sure… but not for all.



PhotonGuy said:


> It is not uncommon for a person following a martial arts workout to be drenched with sweat.



Depends on the art, the person, and the class… 



PhotonGuy said:


> Doing techniques and combinations over and over again it is going to wear you out but build you up. So, for a person to get good at the martial arts, in the course of getting good they will get in good shape.



Not necessarily… again, it depends on the art, the person, the class, and so on… none of this is definite, or accurate across the board.



PhotonGuy said:


> Even as a white belt when I was 12, by the time training ended I had really worked up a sweat. Just from doing the drills.



Well done. Of course, that might just mean you weren't particularly fit at the time… 



PhotonGuy said:


> I agree. I would say its best to have it so that nobody will bother you, so you won't have to fight.



And how is that achieved with fitness?



drop bear said:


> but you are just lowering the bar there and that is not really the point. Yes you can do martial arts and not be fit. But if you want to go up against a world class athlete you should be.



No, there's no "lowering of the bar" there… and who on earth says we're going up against "world class athletes"? Or even want to? That is so far from the application of my training that you might as well talk about what I'd need to consider to apply it on Mars… 



drop bear said:


> being fit will make you a better martial artist.



Again, fitness is relative… and yeah, it can help… but you can be fit and not have it help your martial arts, or you can be a much better martial artist without any real emphasis on fitness… 



drop bear said:


> so you can judge the quality of a martial artist by his fitness.



No, you really can't.



drop bear said:


> And in real defensive terms you do not want to gas out before you fight is over.



That's a sports mentality… I mean, I agree in principle, but there are a number of ways of achieving that… 



drop bear said:


> you just lowered the bar again. Most fights are short so you don't have to be fit. Fair enough. But you are training for a short fight.



Tactically, absolutely I am. If you're interested in what I mean by that, check out Geoff Thompson's 3 Second Fighter…


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> There's some interesting ideas here, which might benefit from highlighting and expanding...
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, cool… here's where your analogy falls apart. You've been using the end result (running a mile, or a 100 yard dash) as an analogy for attaining a goal in martial arts (a black belt). Thing is, completing or competing in a race isn't the same as attaining a developed skill… in those cases, it's a one-off event. Unless you're considering attaining a black belt as a one-off (you do the test one day, and if you want to be a black belt another day, you have to do the test again… and again… and again…), it's really nothing alike.
> 
> Where it can be similar is in the training. Running the race isn't the similarity… it's training to be able to run the race. To take it back to your "mile" idea, if the goal (developed skill) was to run the mile in less than 10 minutes, then the development isn't to run it once, it's to train so that you can do that consistently… then, of course, you continue to train to be able to run it in 9 minutes… until you can do that consistently… then 8 minutes… and so on. You could take each minute as a new development (rank) if you want… but the important thing is that it's the training to be able to run, not the running itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Some will require it (particularly sporting systems), some will encourage it, some won't pay it too much attention at all… it depends on the art… as well as exactly how you're defining "good shape". The form of fitness and strength required for Kyudo is different to that required for Iaido… which is wildly different than for Judo… which is different again to MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, nope. You're painting too thin a line with too broad a brush.
> 
> It's safer to say that any good instructor will tell you what is best suited for development in their art… which might have a fitness component, a fitness emphasis, or not have any real mention of fitness at all… then, of course, you have to understand what "fitness", or "good shape" is relative to the system itself. To take it to an extreme, I don't need the same flexibility in my legs for Kyudo than I did when I did TKD… and I use different muscle groups in my arms and shoulders for Iai than I do for Kyudo…
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be a little careful stating such things… especially when Ballen was much more on the ball than you were.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, lifestyle and conditioning can be a big part of what constitutes "good shape"… and I get what you're saying here… but again, I'd point out that "good shape" can be highly dependant on a range of other factors, including what you're in good shape for.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no, not really. Some of the best "fighters" (bar-room brawlers) are what might be considered in rather bad shape… overweight, beer-conditioned bellies, no real cardio to speak of… but they know how to hit very, very hard. Typically with only one or two "techniques"… but that's really all they need. The fights don't last long enough to really require being in "good shape".
> 
> 
> 
> You're taking too black and white a position here… for one thing, I don't anyone who would argue against physical fitness and health having benefits, particularly not to the point of saying "you don't have to be fit, you just need good technique".
> 
> Realistically, the argument is that competition-level fitness isn't necessarily required for a number of martial arts… you don't have to be an absolute gym-rat in order to gain effective skill. As I tell my guys, if strength and fitness were the big deciding factors in what we did, we'd spend half the session doing weights, and the other half doing cardio… and maybe look at some technique for a few minutes. Of course, that's not what we do… we spend a short amount of time in preparatory stretches, but that's about it… the rest of the time is focused on learning the art… which is technical execution… aiming to minimise the strength needed.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, anybody who has decent experience? Where does my three decades sit there? How about the range of systems I've trained in or been exposed to? Is that decent enough?
> 
> My point is that what you're talking about here is not the reality. I encourage my guys to be invested in their own fitness… I have my own schedules of workouts and strength training that I go through, on top of my training of the techniques… and sure, I sometimes take my guys through a workout that taxes them, and has them question just how "fit" they are… but little of that is to do with the actual martial arts side of things. And, of course, once again, "good shape" is highly relative…
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm… not really a feature of any of my sessions…. which, again, is just another way of saying that whether or not you trust it, it's the reality.
> 
> 
> 
> As others have said, because he was preparing for a fight… against trained, skilled, fit competitors... which is not the reality (especially not at an elite level) for many martial artists.
> 
> 
> 
> Close. You need skill and technique above strength.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes… but, and here's the bit that'll get you, technique, strength, and fitness are only parts of the story… and honestly, the less important parts…
> 
> 
> 
> It can do… but that's not the point of that training… as well as it only really coming up if you train the methods in a particular way. In some Japanese arts, there is the concept of hyaku training (training a single movement or technique for 100 repetitions). And yeah, that can certainly require some endurance/cardio (but not necessarily the same as that needed to make it through 3 x 5 minute rounds in an MMA contest), that's not really what it's about (physically). Additionally, the repetition might be 5 times a day, for 10 years… you don't need much fitness or endurance to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, this is where we're getting into different forms of "fitness"… of course, the gymnast's form of fitness isn't going to be universally required either…
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, let's get into this… earlier you asked why Royce Gracie was weight training prior to his fights (specifically for the first UFC events, which were multiple fights on a single night), to which people pointed out that he was training for that (sport event) fight… now here, you're acknowledging the differences between such contexts and situations… however, I feel that you're still missing a couple of aspects here.
> 
> First off, let's look at why the preparation for each is different… starting with the sports event. As you noted, you get a fair amount of advance notice of an upcoming fight (in most cases). That allows you to do something that self defence training doesn't… give you specific preparation. You can focus your training specifically towards the upcoming event… training for a specific (known) opponent, at a specific (known) time, in a specific (known) place, with a specific (known) set of circumstances and rules, dealing with a  specific (known) set of physical skills and tactics, and so on.
> 
> In this situation, it really is to your advantage to train specifically in any form that will give you an advantage… which includes training up to the event to ensure you will be in peak condition when it occurs (fitness, cardio, strength, health etc).
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so we looked at what is an average preparation for a sporting event, a known activity against a known opponent etc… however, as you point out here, that's not what we're dealing with when looking at self defence training methods. So let's look at that…
> 
> A real encounter/fight/defensive situation has little to no lead up time… there isn't any opportunity to go through any specific preparation, so your preparation needs to be far more general. You can't train for specific attacks or tactics, as there are a huge range of possibilities. Additionally, the type of training for a sporting event, aiming at a peak level, simply doesn't work for a constant level… your body can't sustain such a peak. That's why matches are months apart for professional fighters… you need recovery time.
> 
> Being prepared is one thing… operating at a sports-fight readiness at all times is a one-way track to a an early heart attack through stress (mental and physical)… additionally, you simply can't be prepared for every possibility at all times… and being prepared for one particular response means that you'll miss everything else, or react completely inappropriately to other situations.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we've covered (and re-covered) that martial arts aren't the Scouts… but no, staying in the yellow doesn't mean that you need to be constantly "fight ready"… it is simply "relaxed awareness"… that can change depending on where you are (a dark alley versus at the office at work). And, again, in a self defence context, being in yellow doesn't mean that you need to spend each day focused on fighting fitness… but it does mean that you need to be aware enough to be able to react, should you need to.
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda… it requires enough to maintain tension… and some do require more strength than that… but that's not really what K-man was saying, of course…
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but not necessarily.
> 
> 
> 
> For some, sure… but not for all.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the art, the person, and the class…
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily… again, it depends on the art, the person, the class, and so on… none of this is definite, or accurate across the board.
> 
> 
> 
> Well done. Of course, that might just mean you weren't particularly fit at the time…
> 
> 
> 
> And how is that achieved with fitness?
> 
> 
> 
> No, there's no "lowering of the bar" there… and who on earth says we're going up against "world class athletes"? Or even want to? That is so far from the application of my training that you might as well talk about what I'd need to consider to apply it on Mars…
> 
> 
> 
> Again, fitness is relative… and yeah, it can help… but you can be fit and not have it help your martial arts, or you can be a much better martial artist without any real emphasis on fitness…
> 
> 
> 
> No, you really can't.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a sports mentality… I mean, I agree in principle, but there are a number of ways of achieving that…
> 
> 
> 
> Tactically, absolutely I am. If you're interested in what I mean by that, check out Geoff Thompson's 3 Second Fighter…



ok so training for a three second fight against a non athletic guy. Is lowering the expectation of your martial arts training. Rather than training for a long fight against an athlete.

i don't have an issue with lowering the bar. We are all more than martial artists. I have a low bar in comparison to guys who fight professionally. But i also don't need to justify myself when they clean my clock.

if they are fitter,stronger,train harder and for longer they will become more technically proficient than myself who does not.

so we go back to that mile. He runs it i walk it. He gets to the end of that mile more quickly. He can now run back in the time it takes for me to finish mine. At the end of the year he is better at covering that mile than me.

you are correct it is a sport fighting methodology. And that is because sport fighting is hard.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> you are correct it is a sport fighting methodology. And that is because sport fighting is hard.



Actually the sport fighting is easy....it's the training that is hard.


----------



## drop bear

Geoff Thompson writer - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

just looked up Geoff Thompson. Is that accurate. And if so are we ignoring a huge leaning towards sports methodology for one easy point about 3 second fights?


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Actually the sport fighting is easy....it's the training that is hard.



i understand where you are coming from with that. Train hard fight easy. But it is not really accurate in this context. The fight is hard the training is harder.

 i had a mate of mine who fought a war against a guy who was better than him by a few degrees. But held on and lost by points.

he said that was pretty hard.

i have a terribly biased video of that on youtube.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> i understand where you are coming from with that. Train hard fight easy. But it is not really accurate* in this context. *The fight is hard the training is harder.
> 
> i had a mate of mine who fought a war against a guy who was better than him by a few degrees. But held on and lost by points.
> 
> he said that was pretty hard.
> 
> i have a terribly biased video of that on youtube.



What context? You said sport fighting if you meant something else you should say what you mean.

'_Biased'_ video?

 'Fought a war' sounds like commentator speak when they are hyping a fighter or fight up.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> What context? You said sport fighting if you meant something else you should say what you mean.
> 
> '_Biased'_ video?
> 
> 'Fought a war' sounds like commentator speak when they are hyping a fighter or fight up.



yeah the video is done by the other guy and doesn't show the whole fight just the bits where he looks cool. With some of the extra cool bits repeated.






a war is pretty accurate for this one.

as a side note the danimal is the toughest guy i know. He was the guy who taught me that apparently you can just refuse to be guillotined.


----------



## Tez3

Er, if you think that is 'war' I hate to think what the other fights are like.


----------



## drop bear

While on a lenny mclean video watch.

found this. His advice. Keep yourself strong even for quick fights.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Er, if you think that is 'war' I hate to think what the other fights are like.



let me guess. This would be one of those comments that i am not supposed to respond to because conversation is not sparring.

the other fights are short.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> While on a lenny mclean video watch.
> 
> found this. His advice. Keep yourself strong even for quick fights.
> ]





Really? you're quoting that scumbag?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Probably because you went in too fast.


Nope they had us go slow. As beginners they wanted us to develop proper technique so they made sure we didn't rush it and go too fast to the point that we would develop slop.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Nope they had us go slow. As beginners they wanted us to develop proper technique so they made sure we didn't rush it and go too fast to the point that we would develop slop.



Yeah I can see that.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Chris Parker said:


> There's some interesting ideas here, which might benefit from highlighting and expanding...
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, cool… here's where your analogy falls apart. You've been using the end result (running a mile, or a 100 yard dash) as an analogy for attaining a goal in martial arts (a black belt). Thing is, completing or competing in a race isn't the same as attaining a developed skill… in those cases, it's a one-off event. Unless you're considering attaining a black belt as a one-off (you do the test one day, and if you want to be a black belt another day, you have to do the test again… and again… and again…), it's really nothing alike.
> 
> Where it can be similar is in the training. Running the race isn't the similarity… it's training to be able to run the race. To take it back to your "mile" idea, if the goal (developed skill) was to run the mile in less than 10 minutes, then the development isn't to run it once, it's to train so that you can do that consistently… then, of course, you continue to train to be able to run it in 9 minutes… until you can do that consistently… then 8 minutes… and so on. You could take each minute as a new development (rank) if you want… but the important thing is that it's the training to be able to run, not the running itself.


When I talk about attaining a goal in the martial arts Im not necessarily talking about a black belt or any type of rank, a goal can also be to just develop your skill or techniques up to a certain level of proficiency. You could be training in a style that doesn't use rank and you might still want to build your techniques up to a certain level of adeptness. As for wanting to get your mile run or 100 yard dash down to a certain time and then after you get that to work on getting a lower time and then lower and so on, the same concept can be used with martial arts training. You want to get so good at a technique, and then get better and better and so on.



Chris Parker said:


> Some will require it (particularly sporting systems), some will encourage it, some won't pay it too much attention at all… it depends on the art… as well as exactly how you're defining "good shape". The form of fitness and strength required for Kyudo is different to that required for Iaido… which is wildly different than for Judo… which is different again to MMA.
> 
> 
> 
> True some styles don't require the same level of fitness as others but for every style, you at least have to be able to do the moves, and to be able to properly do the moves often does require a person to be in good enough shape to move their bodies in the proper motions.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, nope. You're painting too thin a line with too broad a brush.
> 
> It's safer to say that any good instructor will tell you what is best suited for development in their art… which might have a fitness component, a fitness emphasis, or not have any real mention of fitness at all… then, of course, you have to understand what "fitness", or "good shape" is relative to the system itself. To take it to an extreme, I don't need the same flexibility in my legs for Kyudo than I did when I did TKD… and I use different muscle groups in my arms and shoulders for Iai than I do for Kyudo…
> 
> 
> 
> This is just my experience. All the instructors I've trained under have either encouraged a student to be in good shape or at least recommended it.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no, not really. Some of the best "fighters" (bar-room brawlers) are what might be considered in rather bad shape… overweight, beer-conditioned bellies, no real cardio to speak of… but they know how to hit very, very hard. Typically with only one or two "techniques"… but that's really all they need. The fights don't last long enough to really require being in "good shape".
> 
> 
> 
> To be able to hit hard you do have to be strong. You can know how to throw a punch and be able to do the proper technique but in order for that technique to have power there has to be strength behind it. There are people who on their first day of boxing classes might punch with the same form as a professional boxer but that doesn't mean they can get in the right with a professional boxer because while they have the form, they haven't yet developed the speed and power, not to mention the ability to take hits which also depends on being in good shape.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're taking too black and white a position here… for one thing, I don't anyone who would argue against physical fitness and health having benefits, particularly not to the point of saying "you don't have to be fit, you just need good technique".
> 
> Realistically, the argument is that competition-level fitness isn't necessarily required for a number of martial arts… you don't have to be an absolute gym-rat in order to gain effective skill. As I tell my guys, if strength and fitness were the big deciding factors in what we did, we'd spend half the session doing weights, and the other half doing cardio… and maybe look at some technique for a few minutes. Of course, that's not what we do… we spend a short amount of time in preparatory stretches, but that's about it… the rest of the time is focused on learning the art… which is technical execution… aiming to minimise the strength needed.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have to be the most fit person in the world but it does make a big difference if you're in reasonably good shape as opposed to just being a couch potato. Of course, if a couch potato decides to train in any of the martial arts I've trained in they won't be a couch potato for long because as I posted before, the martial arts that I trained in will get you in good shape, if from anything just from doing the drills.
> 
> Although most martial arts classes I've taken do involve some calisthenics Weights, cardio, and other such exercises can be done by the student on their own outside of class. Most of the class time is taught teaching the technique because that's what the class is about. Class time is not wasted on stuff that students can do separately.
> 
> And with technique, the purpose of good technique in the styles I've trained in is to use your strength in the best most efficient manner. To maximize the results you get from using your strength. You could say that minimizing the strength needed does play a part since you want to get the most from the least but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use what strength you've got. After all, if a little bit goes a long way than a lot will go even further.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, anybody who has decent experience? Where does my three decades sit there? How about the range of systems I've trained in or been exposed to? Is that decent enough?
> 
> My point is that what you're talking about here is not the reality. I encourage my guys to be invested in their own fitness… I have my own schedules of workouts and strength training that I go through, on top of my training of the techniques… and sure, I sometimes take my guys through a workout that taxes them, and has them question just how "fit" they are… but little of that is to do with the actual martial arts side of things. And, of course, once again, "good shape" is highly relative…
> 
> 
> 
> In all of the styles I've trained in, when you finish a class you get a decent if not good workout.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> A real encounter/fight/defensive situation has little to no lead up time… there isn't any opportunity to go through any specific preparation, so your preparation needs to be far more general. You can't train for specific attacks or tactics, as there are a huge range of possibilities. Additionally, the type of training for a sporting event, aiming at a peak level, simply doesn't work for a constant level… your body can't sustain such a peak. That's why matches are months apart for professional fighters… you need recovery time.
> 
> 
> 
> In Thailand professional Thai fighters usually fight every three weeks. Of course they usually retire at or around the age of 20.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Being prepared is one thing… operating at a sports-fight readiness at all times is a one-way track to a an early heart attack through stress (mental and physical)… additionally, you simply can't be prepared for every possibility at all times… and being prepared for one particular response means that you'll miss everything else, or react completely inappropriately to other situations.
> 
> 
> 
> OK I see your point.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we've covered (and re-covered) that martial arts aren't the Scouts…
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps not but they do have some stuff in common. Both have taught me to be prepared.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> staying in the yellow doesn't mean that you need to be constantly "fight ready"… it is simply "relaxed awareness"… that can change depending on where you are (a dark alley versus at the office at work). And, again, in a self defence context, being in yellow doesn't mean that you need to spend each day focused on fighting fitness… but it does mean that you need to be aware enough to be able to react, should you need to.
> 
> 
> 
> True that being in the yellow does mean relaxed awareness but overall its just a part of being prepared. Being "fight ready" would be more in the orange where you expect the possibility of trouble. At work in the office would be a good time to be in the yellow, in a dark alley would be a good time to be in the orange. As for being in the white, where you are unaware and unprepared, the only time one should really be in the white is when they're sleeping since you don't have a choice then. Unfortunately lots of people are in the white the majority of the time they're awake and thus they make easy victims.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well done. Of course, that might just mean you weren't particularly fit at the time…
> 
> 
> 
> At the time I was a competitive swimmer and I would regularly do swimming workouts for hours, so I was in good shape.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> And how is that achieved with fitness?
> 
> 
> 
> Being in good shape can give you confidence and confidence plays a big role in whether or not you will make an easy victim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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----------



## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> ok so training for a three second fight against a non athletic guy. Is lowering the expectation of your martial arts training. Rather than training for a long fight against an athlete.



Here's the thing… it's not lowering any bar… from my perspective, it's raising it. We don't train for elongated engagements… we don't have the luxury of "feeling out" an opponent, of trying different things to see what gets through… what we do has to work, immediately, powerfully. There's no second chances for the most part… assessments must be immediate, decisions without hesitation, and application direct.

In other words, it's a completely different context and application. Just because what I do doesn't match what you think is "hard" doesn't make what I do easy, or mean any kind of "lowering of the bar"… it's simply a different type of "hard". You might want to remember that in future… what you do is not any form of "litmus test" for what a martial art is, or should be.



drop bear said:


> i don't have an issue with lowering the bar. We are all more than martial artists. I have a low bar in comparison to guys who fight professionally. But i also don't need to justify myself when they clean my clock.
> 
> if they are fitter,stronger,train harder and for longer they will become more technically proficient than myself who does not.



You're still using a false equivalence here… which is the issue.



drop bear said:


> so we go back to that mile. He runs it i walk it. He gets to the end of that mile more quickly. He can now run back in the time it takes for me to finish mine. At the end of the year he is better at covering that mile than me.



No, he isn't. He's just covering it differently. That's the point.



drop bear said:


> you are correct it is a sport fighting methodology. And that is because sport fighting is hard.



Ha!

No. It's not.



drop bear said:


> Geoff Thompson writer - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
> 
> just looked up Geoff Thompson. Is that accurate. And if so are we ignoring a huge leaning towards sports methodology for one easy point about 3 second fights?



No. I suggest you look into what the 3 Second Fighter is first…



drop bear said:


> yeah the video is done by the other guy and doesn't show the whole fight just the bits where he looks cool. With some of the extra cool bits repeated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a war is pretty accurate for this one.
> 
> as a side note the danimal is the toughest guy i know. He was the guy who taught me that apparently you can just refuse to be guillotined.



That's a "war"? Cute.

Oh, and "the danimal"? Also cute… Look, I get that he's what you consider "tough"… and that's great… but I really do have to point out (again) that your take on things isn't going to be the same as everyone else's…



drop bear said:


> While on a lenny mclean video watch.
> 
> found this. His advice. Keep yourself strong even for quick fights.



Er… you do know that he never, not once in that video, ever says anything about staying fit for self defence style altercations… he's talking specifically about his experience as a bare-knuckle boxer, where fights would often be "quick"… meaning about 2 minutes… which is still nearly 2 minutes longer than most street altercations… so… no.



drop bear said:


> let me guess. This would be one of those comments that i am not supposed to respond to because conversation is not sparring.
> 
> the other fights are short.



Conversation is not sparring, that's been mentioned a number of times, and at this point, I suggest you let go of that, and other comments made to you that you patently don't understand (such as the nature of evidence, when you can be your own source, and so on), but that is not anything to do with the comment Tez made. She was simply saying that the video you provided was, although a reasonable match, hardly what many here would consider "a war".

And what does that other fight have to do with anything? It's not the same people as in your first, so I fail to see the connection…

EDIT: Content moved to the correct thread.


----------



## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> When I talk about attaining a goal in the martial arts Im not necessarily talking about a black belt or any type of rank, a goal can also be to just develop your skill or techniques up to a certain level of proficiency. You could be training in a style that doesn't use rank and you might still want to build your techniques up to a certain level of adeptness. As for wanting to get your mile run or 100 yard dash down to a certain time and then after you get that to work on getting a lower time and then lower and so on, the same concept can be used with martial arts training. You want to get so good at a technique, and then get better and better and so on.



You were talking specifically about attaining a black belt, even more specifically about doing it in some self-determined timeline. So yeah, you were talking about a black belt or any type of rank… which is why the whole idea of "running a mile" was really a false equivalence… and you've again missed the point.



PhotonGuy said:


> True some styles don't require the same level of fitness as others but for every style, you at least have to be able to do the moves, and to be able to properly do the moves often does require a person to be in good enough shape to move their bodies in the proper motions.



The issue is that that's such a vague, open ended comment that it's simply not practicable as a comment at all… sure, you have to be able to do the moves… but that doesn't imply, mean, or require any particular level of fitness at all. While some arts will have a particular level of physical condition, it's hardly something that can be taken to mean that martial arts require a degree of fitness. I mean, what shape do you need to be in to do the "proper motions"? And what happens if someone has a physical disability, requiring the actions to be altered (such as an amputation)?

Can you see how it's not that simple?



PhotonGuy said:


> This is just my experience. All the instructors I've trained under have either encouraged a student to be in good shape or at least recommended it.



And that's fine… I recommend it as well… but that doesn't mean it's required for the study of the art… although it is certainly a benefit.



PhotonGuy said:


> To be able to hit hard you do have to be strong. You can know how to throw a punch and be able to do the proper technique but in order for that technique to have power there has to be strength behind it. There are people who on their first day of boxing classes might punch with the same form as a professional boxer but that doesn't mean they can get in the right with a professional boxer because while they have the form, they haven't yet developed the speed and power, not to mention the ability to take hits which also depends on being in good shape.



No.

Look, there are guys I train that are much stronger (physically) than I am… but I hit a hell of a lot harder than them… it's got little to nothing to do with physical strength. And, bluntly, you will not get someone on their first night punching with the same form as a professional boxer… to think that that is a realistic appraisal is to not understand proper form, or it's affect on power generation. Oh, and being in good shape isn't something that gives the ability to take a hit, you realise… 



PhotonGuy said:


> You don't have to be the most fit person in the world but it does make a big difference if you're in reasonably good shape as opposed to just being a couch potato. Of course, if a couch potato decides to train in any of the martial arts I've trained in they won't be a couch potato for long because as I posted before, the martial arts that I trained in will get you in good shape, if from anything just from doing the drills.



And what you need to realise is that that is, as you say, "the martial arts you've trained in"… far from the bulk of other arts and approaches. But you do get that you can be a martial artist, and still be out of shape, yeah? While it might not be the best plan, it does show that martial arts are not specifically about fitness…  



PhotonGuy said:


> Although most martial arts classes I've taken do involve some calisthenics Weights, cardio, and other such exercises can be done by the student on their own outside of class. Most of the class time is taught teaching the technique because that's what the class is about. Class time is not wasted on stuff that students can do separately.



Which again shows that fitness and strength training is not a part of those arts… it's a much bigger part of competitive (sport) systems, where it's far more important. Confusing martial sports with all forms of martial arts will just lead to inaccurate assumptions and ideas. 



PhotonGuy said:


> And with technique, the purpose of good technique in the styles I've trained in is to use your strength in the best most efficient manner. To maximize the results you get from using your strength. You could say that minimizing the strength needed does play a part since you want to get the most from the least but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use what strength you've got. After all, if a little bit goes a long way than a lot will go even further.



No, actually. Again, I have guys much stronger than me… and frankly, it's not that important. In fact, they get corrected if they just use strength… or if they overly muscle things. The reason is that it interferes with correct form, and actually limits the power they can achieve.



PhotonGuy said:


> In all of the styles I've trained in, when you finish a class you get a decent if not good workout.



Again, that comes down to the system, the class, the instructor, and your own personal level of fitness to begin with.



PhotonGuy said:


> In Thailand professional Thai fighters usually fight every three weeks. Of course they usually retire at or around the age of 20.



Er… okay… and? 

Look, the Thai boxing culture is at a faster pace than the MMA timeline, but it's the same principle.



PhotonGuy said:


> OK I see your point.



Okay.



PhotonGuy said:


> Perhaps not but they do have some stuff in common. Both have taught me to be prepared.



Sigh… do you really want to go down this path again?



PhotonGuy said:


> True that being in the yellow does mean relaxed awareness but overall its just a part of being prepared. Being "fight ready" would be more in the orange where you expect the possibility of trouble. At work in the office would be a good time to be in the yellow, in a dark alley would be a good time to be in the orange. As for being in the white, where you are unaware and unprepared, the only time one should really be in the white is when they're sleeping since you don't have a choice then. Unfortunately lots of people are in the white the majority of the time they're awake and thus they make easy victims.



You really aren't in a position to educate on the colour codes, you know… and honestly, I have issues with it as is, as it's often too defining in it's approach… a more realistic expression would be graduated shades… and honestly, both the dark alley and the office are yellow… orange is for when you know you will likely need to engage.

As for people being in the white, sure. Not really anything to do with this thread, or this forum, though… 



PhotonGuy said:


> At the time I was a competitive swimmer and I would regularly do swimming workouts for hours, so I was in good shape.



You were 12, you said. Your body hadn't really gotten to the point where such things can be defined that well. And, importantly, you were a white belt, which made you an absolute beginner… in which case, it was probably simply something your body wasn't used to… so, despite your "good shape", it wasn't the right type of fitness for what you were then starting to put it through.



PhotonGuy said:


> Being in good shape can give you confidence and confidence plays a big role in whether or not you will make an easy victim.



Actually, no, it's not that clear cut either. While confidence can make you less appealing as a victim to a resource predator (a robber/mugger etc), it can make you more appealing to a social attack (an attempt to raise social status at the expense of another). Additionally, having confidence based on simple fitness can lead you to miss the warnings of an attack… leaving you open to attack largely due to that undeserved sense of confidence.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> And, it seems, the answer to that has been "by accident".
> 
> 
> 
> By changing the angle of the kick, you change the position of the hips, which changes the orientation of the leg, which changes the position of the support leg… all of which makes it a very different kick.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't know why a different kick, with a different set up, a different angle, a different striking surface (in many cases), a different hip and support leg position, a different primary target, and more is a different kick? Are you sure about that?
> 
> 
> 
> And, I gotta tell you, that's a deeply flawed idea. For one thing, you get me to kick you in the inner thigh instead of the groin, you're still not going to want to stand there and take it as a training method… trust me, I kick you there, you drop. But hey, that's just the way we kick to that target…
> 
> The reality is that there is always some compromise for safety versus realism in all training methods. That's just the way it has to be… to train a kick that's not a groin kick in order to train a groin kick, as you think training an actual groin kick is too dangerous, or not possible, is just to be completely unaware of the way these things work… and to completely miss the point of training a groin kick in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> Kyok*u*shin… you might want to start learning to spell the name, if you are going to use them as an example…
> 
> 
> 
> He does. He has done for many years… decades… your level of experience is a little more in doubt, honestly…
> 
> That said...
> 
> 
> 
> Here, I agree with you. The entire point of chambering a kick is to generate power. Yes, it can be slower, and sometimes easier to read… but I don't agree with K-man that it "robs you of power".
> 
> 
> 
> It depends on the set-up. As an initial launch, or attack, yeah, it can be read and avoided… but as a follow up, it can be a devastatingly powerful "finisher"… of course, the target is important as well…
> 
> But yeah, as with everything… it depends. Chambered kicks can be good, bad, or anything in between for both sport and "real life" applications.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah… you've jumped a bit there… but to begin with, what kicks exactly is your "trained fighter" facing? What's the set-up? What's the context? What are the tactical methods of the system they're using? And, as far as the "street attacker", what skills and tactics do you think they're developing?
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the thing… it's not lowering any bar… from my perspective, it's raising it. We don't train for elongated engagements… we don't have the luxury of "feeling out" an opponent, of trying different things to see what gets through… what we do has to work, immediately, powerfully. There's no second chances for the most part… assessments must be immediate, decisions without hesitation, and application direct.
> 
> In other words, it's a completely different context and application. Just because what I do doesn't match what you think is "hard" doesn't make what I do easy, or mean any kind of "lowering of the bar"… it's simply a different type of "hard". You might want to remember that in future… what you do is not any form of "litmus test" for what a martial art is, or should be.
> 
> 
> 
> You're still using a false equivalence here… which is the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> No, he isn't. He's just covering it differently. That's the point.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha!
> 
> No. It's not.
> 
> 
> 
> No. I suggest you look into what the 3 Second Fighter is first…
> 
> 
> 
> That's a "war"? Cute.
> 
> Oh, and "the danimal"? Also cute… Look, I get that he's what you consider "tough"… and that's great… but I really do have to point out (again) that your take on things isn't going to be the same as everyone else's…
> 
> 
> 
> Er… you do know that he never, not once in that video, ever says anything about staying fit for self defence style altercations… he's talking specifically about his experience as a bare-knuckle boxer, where fights would often be "quick"… meaning about 2 minutes… which is still nearly 2 minutes longer than most street altercations… so… no.
> 
> 
> 
> Conversation is not sparring, that's been mentioned a number of times, and at this point, I suggest you let go of that, and other comments made to you that you patently don't understand (such as the nature of evidence, when you can be your own source, and so on), but that is not anything to do with the comment Tez made. She was simply saying that the video you provided was, although a reasonable match, hardly what many here would consider "a war".
> 
> And what does that other fight have to do with anything? It's not the same people as in your first, so I fail to see the connection…



did you just mash like three threads in to one big mess of contextless opinion here?

i might be able to address some of the sillier bits but you don't exactly make life easy.


----------



## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> did you just mash like three threads in to one big mess of contextless opinion here?
> 
> i might be able to address some of the sillier bits but you don't exactly make life easy.



Hmm… yeah… not sure how that happened… I'll see if I can clear it up, and transfer it where it's meant to be.

As far as the "sillier" bits… well, we'll see what you come up with to counter my arguments before you start with such comments, yeah?


----------



## Tgace

Covering a physical distance (running) is not comparable to learning a skill/art....in any way.

This is a flawed conversation from the start.


----------



## Tgace

Eh. The BIG LIE that "size/conditioning doesn't matter".

Usually spouted by people who have never really been in a fight.

They may not be a replacement for skill/technique, but they certainty do matter in an unarmed confrontation.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… yeah… not sure how that happened… I'll see if I can clear it up, and transfer it where it's meant to be.
> 
> As far as the "sillier" bits… well, we'll see what you come up with to counter my arguments before you start with such comments, yeah?



ok outright wrong with the Lenny McLean video. Agree or dissagree with him he advocates strength in fights even if they are quick.


----------



## drop bear

Tgace said:


> Covering a physical distance (running) is not comparable to learning a skill/art....in any way.
> 
> This is a flawed conversation from the start.



it is a metaphor. I believe relating to the idea that if you work harder you will get results quicker.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… yeah… not sure how that happened… I'll see if I can clear it up, and transfer it where it's meant to be.
> 
> As far as the "sillier" bits… well, we'll see what you come up with to counter my arguments before you start with such comments, yeah?



regarding the war idea. The guy who did the fight considered it a war. Experienced fighters who saw it considered it a war.

and we can break an average person well inside the fifteen minute mark. In sparring. Going easy. It is a seriously long time to be fighting somone

have you trained or fought mma to make an expert judgement on this?


----------



## drop bear

drop bear said:


> did you just mash like three threads in to one big mess of contextless opinion here?
> 
> i might be able to address some of the sillier bits but you don't exactly make life easy.



ok. You mentioned about being your own source. And then have tried to explain to me what happens in a street fight. I have been in a heap of street fights and would still only suggest what happens to me or what i have observed.

you cant be your own source here. You do not have the experience in practical violence.

if Geoff Thompson does then he could be your external source.


----------



## Tgace

drop bear said:


> it is a metaphor. I believe relating to the idea that if you work harder you will get results quicker.



I know.. Its a flawed metaphor IMO. Learning a skill is as much a matter of time as it is effort. That being said, I suppose that daily instruction under a qualified teacher should advance you faster than two hours a class, two days a week.

Running a distance is not comparable to learning something.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> have you trained or fought mma to make an expert judgement on this?


Hmmmm I've trained for actual War in the Marine Corps and that's not war.  That's a sport.  Perhaps we shouldn't throw around serious terms to describe a game


----------



## Transk53

Hey drop bear, an ex marine in Ballen, probably time to give it up, IMHO.


----------



## Tez3

Our team fighters being soldiers are never impressed when someone calls a fight a 'war. As we lost two of them in Afghanistan one can see why.


----------



## ballen0351

Tez is another that knows the reality of War.  I've been to too many services of friends that didn't come home from a real war.


----------



## Transk53

Okay, drop bear. Let me annunciate this very bluntly. Like me as not being ex services, you are venturing into ground owned by them.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Hmmmm I've trained for actual War in the Marine Corps and that's not war.  That's a sport.  Perhaps we shouldn't throw around serious terms to describe a game



perhaps it is an accepted term for a hard ring fight. So i think a war is apt.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Okay, drop bear. Let me annunciate this very bluntly. Like me as not being ex services, you are venturing into ground owned by them.



they don't have a copyright on the word war. This is ridiculous.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> perhaps it is an accepted term for a hard ring fight.


You mean a game


> So i think a war is apt.


You would


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> You mean a game
> 
> You would



ok so everybody who uses the term martial arts is being disrespectful to soldiers. because we are not training for a war.


----------



## ballen0351

Martial arts no comparing a sporting event to a war yes I find it disrespectful


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Martial arts no comparing a sporting event to a war yes I find it disrespectful



well i find the term martial art disrespectful to those who have served. Soldiers do a martial art civilians do not.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> well i find the term martial art disrespectful to those who have served. Soldiers do a martial art civilians do not.


Well perhaps you should stand for what your believe in and leave this forum since it's called MARTIAL talk.  Bye bye


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Well perhaps you should stand for what your believe in and leave this forum since it's called MARTIAL talk.  Bye bye



yeah. Made my point. Thanks.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> yeah. Made my point. Thanks.


That you have no point yeah I've known that since you fist showed up here


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> ok so everybody who uses the term martial arts is being disrespectful to soldiers. because we are not training for a war.



Most of us are doing arts derived from "war arts" but are decidedly antiquated by modern standards.  I don't have a problem (I am a civilian) with calling what I do a "martial art."  I do have a problem with people then thinking that makes them "warriors."


----------



## tshadowchaser

drop bear said:


> ok so everybody who uses the term martial arts is being disrespectful to soldiers. because we are not training for a war.



I object to that statement.  I was trained in a art that came from worn torn territory and by people who used it in war so that I could perhaps survive in war or those that I trained. War is not just men in uniform on a piece of land  far from home, war takes place in the streets of ,in school yards and back alleys. If you doubt this wear blue and walk through south central LA.
Deal with drug dealers, hit men from gangs, or someone invading your house and tell me your not at war at that moment.
AS Blindside said we learn an art that may be antiquated but we are martial artists  in the fact that we are learning that art and possibly its philosophy in the hopes we do not need this knowledge or perhaps to keep ourselves alive in our chosen profession


----------



## tshadowchaser

Drop Bear

I have the highest regard for those that serve their country, both men ans women. I do not care if they sit behind a desk at a computer, or walk the halls of a hospital or trod the ground of some god forsaken backwater country because of what ever reason.
This forum is called Martialtalk it is about both ancient and modern methods of combat both with and without some sort of weapons and in some cases the sports that have derived from them.
If you do not consider what the people on this forum do to be a martial art why are you on this forum.
If you wanted a forum that deals with modern and ancient military tactics, weapons, and strategies then maybe you should have joined a Military forum.
I am posting this as someone that has been here from the beginning and I am posting this as a member of the forum not as a mentor.
sheldon


----------



## drop bear

tshadowchaser said:


> I object to that statement.  I was trained in a art that came from worn torn territory and by people who used it in war so that I could perhaps survive in war or those that I trained. War is not just men in uniform on a piece of land  far from home, war takes place in the streets of ,in school yards and back alleys. If you doubt this wear blue and walk through south central LA.
> Deal with drug dealers, hit men from gangs, or someone invading your house and tell me your not at war at that moment.
> AS Blindside said we learn an art that may be antiquated but we are martial artists  in the fact that we are learning that art and possibly its philosophy in the hopes we do not need this knowledge or perhaps to keep ourselves alive in our chosen profession



ok. To recap.

ballen said this. In a troll attempt.

"Hmmmm I've trained for actual War in the Marine Corps and that's not war. That's a sport. Perhaps we shouldn't throw around serious terms to describe a game"

i am trying to explain why to take offence with the word war is as silly as to take offence with the word martial arts. The conversation was a silly point scoring exercise. And is why i did not respond to ballens last comment.

that quote could as easily be directed at you and your beliefs.


----------



## Dirty Dog

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversations polite, professional, and on-topic. If there is another user you simply cannot interact with in a civil manner, please use the IGNORE feature.

Mark A. Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator


----------



## Chris Parker

Chris Parker said:


> As far as the "sillier" bits… well, we'll see what you come up with to counter my arguments before you start with such comments, yeah?



Okay, let's see what we have here then… 



drop bear said:


> ok outright wrong with the Lenny McLean video. Agree or dissagree with him he advocates strength in fights even if they are quick.



He advocated being strong for a bare-knuckle match… which is just another form of match fight. Nothing to do with self defence training (the 3 second fight idea)… which was what you were putting the clip up to counter. As a result, no, he's not saying anything that you think he is. 

I can do a transcription of the video if you'd like… or you can quote where you think I'm "outright wrong" in pointing out what McLean actually said…  



drop bear said:


> it is a metaphor. I believe relating to the idea that if you work harder you will get results quicker.



Actually, it's an analogy, not a metaphor… and we got what he meant, it was simply inaccurate, and completely flawed. Which is what we've said.



drop bear said:


> regarding the war idea. The guy who did the fight considered it a war. Experienced fighters who saw it considered it a war.



Really? They considered that a "war"? Personally, I don't. At all. Something like the final of the first season of TUF, between Forrest Griffin and Stefan Bonar, that was more what I'd consider a "war" (in this context)… I didn't see anything close to that there. And yes, I get that all we saw were highlights (biased, you say), but the fatigue wasn't there, the war-wounds weren't showing, it was a fairly long fight, but not a war… 



drop bear said:


> and we can break an average person well inside the fifteen minute mark. In sparring. Going easy. It is a seriously long time to be fighting somone



Sure, it's a long time… for the record, I can "break" someone in seconds… I just do it in a different way… but none of that makes what was seen a "war"… just an overly long time to spend engaged with someone.



drop bear said:


> have you trained or fought mma to make an expert judgement on this?



MMA? Nope. BJJ, yep. Boxing, yep. Kickboxing, yep. Honestly, they bored me… but that's just my perspective, really. And I can certainly see both the appeal and benefits of those systems, so don't think I'm being dismissive of them here.

Of course, the real point here is that I'm not giving an "expert judgement" on the match… simply an observation from someone who's been around for a long while, and has watched UFC/MMA develop from before the first UFC event… I'm not overly interested in it, other than as a way of maintaining an awareness of what's going on, it must be said… but that doesn't mean I don't have some experience in what constitutes a "war" in this context… from my perspective, of course… 



drop bear said:


> ok. You mentioned about being your own source. And then have tried to explain to me what happens in a street fight. I have been in a heap of street fights and would still only suggest what happens to me or what i have observed.



Yeah… you've missed most of what you've been told… including what it means to be your own source, and when that's applicable… but, for the record, I have never argued against your experience or experiences… I have questioned some of your conclusions, and your insight… but that's a different area entirely.



drop bear said:


> you cant be your own source here. You do not have the experience in practical violence.



It depends entirely as to what I'm being my own source for. Again, you've missed what that refers to… and are trying rather constantly to shoe-horn it in as a kind of dig in many posts here. I recommend you pull back on that… it doesn't do you any favours, and makes you look petty, among other things.

Of course, suggesting that I don't have experience in practical violence isn't the safest assumption you could make… but I rarely use that to back up my comments, you may note.



drop bear said:


> if Geoff Thompson does then he could be your external source.



No, Geoff Thompson could be a source for a range of things…. but not for my own experience. He could be an influence on my insight, or a source particularly for a range of ideas/concepts/training methods… or he could be support for other evidence… or anything in between. To be frank, you seem to have an issue understanding the nature of evidence, with your harping on the idea of "being your own source", as you have never understood it, and the idea of an appeal to authority, thinking it's a consistent logical fallacy, when that's actually not the case at all.



drop bear said:


> perhaps it is an accepted term for a hard ring fight. So i think a war is apt.



Oh, I got what you meant… and my comment was that, well, that didn't look that hard by my standards… I'm not saying it was easy, of course, just that it was fairly standard in terms of "hard"… so… not a "war".



drop bear said:


> they don't have a copyright on the word war. This is ridiculous.



No, they don't… but what they're saying is that their perspective on what constitutes a "war" seems to differ significantly to yours. Of course, when you're dealing with actually servicemen and women, who actively engage in the business of soldiering, the usage of certain terms will get a particular response… 



drop bear said:


> ok so everybody who uses the term martial arts is being disrespectful to soldiers. because we are not training for a war.



Yeah… now you're just being petty again… and, honestly, the reducto ad absurdum approach isn't particularly helpful to your side. For the record, though, in a number of ways, I am training for a "war"… and I'm certainly not training for a sport… but it gets a little more complicated than that… 



drop bear said:


> well i find the term martial art disrespectful to those who have served. Soldiers do a martial art civilians do not.



Again, reducto ad absurdum doesn't help you… but, for fun, let's clarify something here: Soldiers do not, and I'm going to repeat this for emphasis here… do not do "a martial art". What they do is kinda the other end of the scale to a martial art, in many ways… they do combative systems. The difference is fairly huge, so you know… martial arts really wouldn't suit a soldiers methods, timeline, purpose, or many other aspects of their reality.



drop bear said:


> yeah. Made my point. Thanks.



Then perhaps you can elucidate your point… as I don't see how what Ballen said made any point you have been putting across.


----------



## Tez3

Lenny McClean self defence would have been to use a sawn off shotgun, he may have been known for being a bare knuckle fighter but he was also one of the worst criminals going, implicated in several violent murders who worked with the Krays he is a scumbag and really shouldn't be looked up to into anything.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> ok. To recap.
> 
> ballen said this. In a troll attempt.
> 
> "Hmmmm I've trained for actual War in the Marine Corps and that's not war. That's a sport. Perhaps we shouldn't throw around serious terms to describe a game"
> 
> i am trying to explain why to take offence with the word war is as silly as to take offence with the word martial arts. The conversation was a silly point scoring exercise. And is why i did not respond to ballens last comment.
> 
> that quote could as easily be directed at you and your beliefs.


1st it was no attempt at trolling.  I have lost many friends in Afghanistan and Iraq fighting a WAR.  Since Thanksgiving Ive gone to 4 suicides by vets of these same WARS.  Guys that fought a real WAR and the things they saw were so bad it messed up their minds to the point otherwise normal healthy men killed themselves over the things they saw and did in WAR. We are now loosing more  military members to suicide from trauma of had been in a WAR then we are loosing in the actual war.  So yes I take offense to comparing a sport to WAR.  Two guys going at it in a cage isn't remotely close to a war.
So take you "silly point scoring exercise"and shove it


----------



## ballen0351

Go tell these guys all about a "war" you saw in a cage


----------



## Tgace

I also object to sport fighters, martial artists, athletes, etc calling themselves/being called "warriors".


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Go tell these guys all about a "war" you saw in a cage



did you just use a funeral to score a point on the internet?


----------



## drop bear

Tgace said:


> I also object to sport fighters, martial artists, athletes, etc calling themselves/being called "warriors".



honestly this whole issue is a new concept. I was pretty happy with people calling themselves what they want pretty much.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Tgrace  I understand where your coming from but words have more than one meaning 


war·rior

_noun_, _often attributive_ \ˈwȯr-yər, ˈwȯr-ē-ər, ˈwär-ē- _also_ ˈwär-yər\

: a person who fights in battles and is known for having courage and skill

*Full Definition of WARRIOR*
*:*  a man engaged or experienced in warfare; _broadly_ *:*  a person engaged in some struggle or conflict <poverty _warriors_>

Learner's definition of WARRIOR

[count]

: a person who fights in battles and is known for having courage and skill


a proud and brave _warrior_

— sometimes used figuratively


She has been a _warrior_ against [=she has fought hard against] social injustice.


----------



## Tgace

If you are not putting your *** on the line in a very literal sense (either by risking your life or being in a profession where it may be required of you) than you are neither a soldier or a warrior. People want to bask in the glow of a self-satisfied ego without the risks, dangers and hardships required to really EARN the title.

IMO, most people who strive to justify the self-ascribed "Warrior" title are wannabes...unfortunately.


----------



## tshadowchaser

That I will not debate for I personally fell you are correct
I was only pointing out that there are different interpretations in the English language 
I agree if your putting your *** on the line all the time your are a warrior


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> did you just use a funeral to score a point on the internet?


No I used a funeral to make it real for you since you obviously have no idea what it's like to risk your life for something bigger then yourself.


----------



## Tgace

tshadowchaser said:


> That I will not debate for I personally fell you are correct
> I was only pointing out that there are different interpretations in the English language
> I agree if your putting your *** on the line all the time your are a warrior


I didn't post that in response to you TS...just coincidental timing...

IMO, people don't differentiate between figurative and literal all too often, and the warrior title is loosing its meaning.

And Martial Artists can be the biggest offenders. Learning fighting skills no more makes one a "warrior" than learning how to shoot a rifle makes one a "Marine".


----------



## Tgace

ballen0351 said:


> No I used a funeral to make it real for you since you obviously have no idea what it's like to risk your life for something bigger then yourself.


That's what being a warrior really boils down to.


----------



## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> No I used a funeral to make it real for you since you obviously have no idea what it's like to risk your life for something bigger then yourself.



look if you need to go to that level to win. Then you win.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> honestly this whole issue is a new concept. I was pretty happy with people calling themselves what they want pretty much.



No they cannot. I cannot call myself a Doctor. I can call myself an Essex boy because I am. Quite frankly, how you can acusse Ballen of being a troll, I really don't understand. You are reading only what you want to IMHO.


----------



## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> look if you need to go to that level to win. Then you win.


I don't want to win.  I want you to stop being a disrespectful *******


----------



## jks9199

I see a LOT of disrespect going on, and I sincerely hope it stops.  Like NOW.  Because I really don't want to drop the Mod hammer that some of you seem to be asking for, or trying to goad others into triggering.

Let's pause a moment, and look at the rules: 


> knowledge to engage in mature conversation.
> 
> To participate in our online forums, you must agree to abide by our rules and policies. We encourage active debate and free speech, but remember you are our guest here. Civil and ethical conduct is required. To this end, you agree that, if asked, you will yield to the requests of the forum moderators and/or administrators. By posting, you have agreed to follow our policies.
> 
> *General Rules:
> · No Flame Wars. Keep it civil, please.
> · Keep the language civil. No profanity.
> · Please post to the correct forum, for a reason and on topic. Do not cross post to multiple forums.
> · Be respectful of the other arts, and your fellow members.
> · No Advertising except in the advertising forums
> · If you have a problem with another member, contact a moderator to handle it.
> · Take the time to explore the Help, FAQ and User CP.*
> The "basic rule" is in effect for discussions on MartialTalk.com:
> 
> *Treat others, as you would wish to be treated. We ask that you be professional and polite to one other and respect our intention to have a forum for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. We do not wish to censor or control your opinions, but we will ensure that the policies of the board are respected.* We reserve the right to delete, edit, or move/merge posts at our discretion. (Note in particular that we have restrictions on where you may post advertising and how many times you may post the same message.) If you have any questions regarding such an action, or wish to point out a violation of the letter or spirit of our policies, we ask that you please notify a moderator or administrator.
> 
> A member who is rude, excessively negative, or disruptive may receive a warning or may be suspended or banned immediately. Suspending and banning is done at the discretion of the administration team. Any abuse directed at our all-volunteer moderation/administration team, including defying the moderators/administrators to suspend or ban a member, may result in an immediate suspension or ban. Membership on MartialTalk is a privilege, not a right.


(emphasis added)

Folks, it's real simple.  MartialTalk is supposed to a friendly place.  A place to enlighten each other, not take shots at each other.  If you can't get along with someone, use the Ignore feature.  You'll see a lot less of their posts, pretty just when someone quotes them directly.  Let's drop the shots, let's drop the insults, and let's focus on sharing our mutual enjoyment of the martial arts.


----------



## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> I see a LOT of disrespect going on, and I sincerely hope it stops.  Like NOW.  Because I really don't want to drop the Mod hammer that some of you seem to be asking for, or trying to goad others into triggering.
> 
> Let's pause a moment, and look at the rules:
> 
> (emphasis added)
> 
> Folks, it's real simple.  MartialTalk is supposed to a friendly place.  A place to enlighten each other, not take shots at each other.  If you can't get along with someone, use the Ignore feature.  You'll see a lot less of their posts, pretty just when someone quotes them directly.  Let's drop the shots, let's drop the insults, and let's focus on sharing our mutual enjoyment of the martial arts.



Amen. We should all get along.


----------



## Steve

"Why can't we be friends?"  - War (and the Muppets on the Muppet Show in season 4)


----------



## PhotonGuy

Although my original purpose of starting this thread was not to specifically discuss testing, rank, or promotion I've been thinking about something. From my observations and from what many people have said on this board, lots of senseis will test students when the sensei sees that they're ready. Now, in academic schooling the way testing works is this, tests are given at specifically scheduled dates and they're mandatory for the entire class. Whether or not a student is ready for the test shows in how well they do and the grade they get. So, in many of the martial arts a student gets to test when they're ready. With academic schooling it is more or less the other way around, its more along the lines of you had better be ready for the test when they give it or you will get a bad grade. 

So its been said here that martial arts can't be rushed. Well how about academic schooling, that sometimes, I must say quite often, is rushed.

How about this, how about if in the martial arts if they had tests that were mandatory and that were given at regular scheduled intervals and whether or not a student was ready for the test would result in them passing or failing. Or, in academic school, if a student was only given a test when they were ready for it. After all, a teacher should be able to see if a student is ready for a test the same way a sensei should see if a martial arts student is ready, and so if tests in school were only given when a student was ready for it. That way, nobody would flunk tests.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Although I think we have discussed points of PhotonGuy"s post before it might be good to discuss it again but I  think it should be in another thread if anyone would care to start one on the subject


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> How about this, how about if in the martial arts if they had tests that were mandatory and that were given at regular scheduled intervals and whether or not a student was ready for the test would result in them passing or failing. Or, in academic school, if a student was only given a test when they were ready for it. After all, a teacher should be able to see if a student is ready for a test the same way a sensei should see if a martial arts student is ready, and so if tests in school were only given when a student was ready for it. That way, nobody would flunk tests.


 
As a martial arts instructor I really don't need to waste my time testing people I think are going to fail, and given that the only thing that me not testing someone will do is delay their next rank, no big deal.  As for academic settings that is more of logistics thing, an instructor would prefer to focus on only a certain number of classes at a given time, if you as the student can't meet the timeframe then you don't succeed.  Not having a student flunk a test is not necessarily the goal of all instructors, I have been in "weeding out" classes whose difficulty was set precisely to figure out who was capable of advancing into certain majors.


----------



## Steve

There's a major difference between martial arts and an academic course of study.  When you attend school, you are enrolled in a particular iteration of the class, which progresses according to a fixed timeline.  Over the course of this timeline, you are assessed at regular intervals and then given a grade to indicate how well you did at the end.  In the UK model, you just take a final and that's the grade.  If you pass, great.  If you fail, you can (or must) take the course over again.  Accreditation is also a big part of education.  Colleges and Universities (at least in the USA) are reviewed as a part of a peer review process that has been around for the better part of 75 years (IIRC).  So, there is consistency in the process that is mandated by a process of self policing.

Martial arts don't typically follow a rigorous timeline.  People start at at all different times and progress at their own pace.  There is no external, peer review, or at least, if there is it is specific to that school's affiliation to a specific organization.  There is no external, objective peer review or accreditation process.

Finally, martial arts has much less in common with school than with a sports club or a gym.  The business model for a yoga school is functionally the same as for a martial arts school.


----------



## Cirdan

About teaching being rushed, it is the job of the instructor to keep you out of your comfort zone during lessons.

And for the N`th time, students get their belts when they deserve them, no matter how testing is done. There is no secret to it, no perfect way to do it, no cosmic truths to dig up. So stop worrying about it and shut up and train 

I have a possible grading coming up this summer myself. I don`t worry too much about it, I do train every day tho and that is what is important. If I am ready by then I will test and pass. If not well it is not the end of the world.


----------



## PhotonGuy

tshadowchaser said:


> Although I think we have discussed points of PhotonGuy"s post before it might be good to discuss it again but I  think it should be in another thread if anyone would care to start one on the subject



So what should be the title of the thread? Do you want to start it?


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> So what should be the title of the thread? Do you want to start it?



Calm down, there was no malice in tshadowchaser's post, of that I am sure!


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Calm down, there was no malice in tshadowchaser's post, of that I am sure!



I never said there was. I simply said that if they think its a good idea to start a new thread than they should and I was asking what the thread should be called.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> As a martial arts instructor I really don't need to waste my time testing people I think are going to fail, and given that the only thing that me not testing someone will do is delay their next rank, no big deal.  As for academic settings that is more of logistics thing, an instructor would prefer to focus on only a certain number of classes at a given time, if you as the student can't meet the timeframe then you don't succeed.  Not having a student flunk a test is not necessarily the goal of all instructors, I have been in "weeding out" classes whose difficulty was set precisely to figure out who was capable of advancing into certain majors.



So Blindside has anybody ever failed your tests? You say you don't test students until they're ready, so have students failed?


----------



## tshadowchaser

PhontonGuy      

here is the thread  I hope everyone enjoys the debate/discussion
http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/acidemic-testing-vs-martial-school-testing


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> So Blindside has anybody ever failed your tests? You say you don't test students until they're ready, so have students failed?



So I  was actually talking about when I taught kenpo, and I only know of one student who failed, you still have to perform on the test. 

These days in kali I don't rank test, and only promote when a student reaches an instructor rank, until then you are simply a  student.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> So I  was actually talking about when I taught kenpo, and I only know of one student who failed, you still have to perform on the test.
> 
> These days in kali I don't rank test, and only promote when a student reaches an instructor rank, until then you are simply a  student.



So Blindside, back in the days when you did test you said you wouldn't test students until you felt they were ready but that students could still fail since for a student to pass the test, they had to perform well enough in the test. So, when you felt a student was ready that was no guarantee that they would pass but you would not test a student until you felt they were ready nonetheless. Is that right?


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> So Blindside, back in the days when you did test you said you wouldn't test students until you felt they were ready but that students could still fail since for a student to pass the test, they had to perform well enough in the test. So, when you felt a student was ready that was no guarantee that they would pass but you would not test a student until you felt they were ready nonetheless. Is that right?



Correct.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> Correct.



I see. Well, if a student isn't ready I do think its important for the student to know why they're not ready. Take for instance Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Somebody on this board said that from white to black to go up a belt on the average it takes about two and a half years. So therefore it would roughly take ten years to get a black belt in BJJ with approx. 2 1/2 years per belt although they also mentioned that some students for whatever reasons might get stuck at a certain belt or belts for longer than that.

So anyway, if I was doing BJJ I would expect to take about 2 1/2 years to advance in belts. As its been pointed out you can't rush stuff otherwise you will just end up ruining it so I would expect it to take the standard amount of time for me to advance in belts which in the case of BJJ would be 2 1/2 years. However, as its also been pointed out that students might sometimes get stuck for longer than that. So if I was stuck for longer than that I would want to know why. In order to know why I would have to ask my sensei. So would it be appropriate to ask my sensei or would it be disrespectful? Some people here consider it disrespectful to ask questions about belts and rank, or at least that's the impression I get. But it makes sense that if you're stuck its appropriate to ask. So how would you see that? Thoughts?


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> I see. Well, if a student isn't ready I do think its important for the student to know why they're not ready. Take for instance Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Somebody on this board said that from white to black to go up a belt on the average it takes about two and a half years. So therefore it would roughly take ten years to get a black belt in BJJ with approx. 2 1/2 years per belt although they also mentioned that some students for whatever reasons might get stuck at a certain belt or belts for longer than that.
> 
> So anyway, if I was doing BJJ I would expect to take about 2 1/2 years to advance in belts. As its been pointed out you can't rush stuff otherwise you will just end up ruining it so I would expect it to take the standard amount of time for me to advance in belts which in the case of BJJ would be 2 1/2 years. However, as its also been pointed out that students might sometimes get stuck for longer than that. So if I was stuck for longer than that I would want to know why. In order to know why I would have to ask my sensei. So would it be appropriate to ask my sensei or would it be disrespectful? Some people here consider it disrespectful to ask questions about belts and rank, or at least that's the impression I get. But it makes sense that if you're stuck its appropriate to ask. So how would you see that? Thoughts?



If you were doing BJJ and you got "stuck" at blue and weren't being promoted to purple it would be readily obvious why you weren't being promoted, because every time you got on the mat to roll you could hang with the blues and were generally dominated by the purples.  You don't deserve purple if you can't hang with the purples, BJJ is great that way.  I would hope that you could figure out on your own that "hey my guard passing sucks, maybe I should ask for some help."

I am all for communication with an instructor, I think the "it is disrespectful to ask about promotion" bit is BS.  If someone has a question to me about where they stand and what they need to work on I will tell them.  But again, as been said so many times before, that is the instructors prerogative and  they may run their school differently.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> If you were doing BJJ and you got "stuck" at blue and weren't being promoted to purple it would be readily obvious why you weren't being promoted, because every time you got on the mat to roll you could hang with the blues and were generally dominated by the purples.  You don't deserve purple if you can't hang with the purples, BJJ is great that way.  I would hope that you could figure out on your own that "hey my guard passing sucks, maybe I should ask for some help."
> 
> I am all for communication with an instructor, I think the "it is disrespectful to ask about promotion" bit is BS.  If someone has a question to me about where they stand and what they need to work on I will tell them.  But again, as been said so many times before, that is the instructors prerogative and  they may run their school differently.



If I was a blue belt in BJJ and I kept getting beaten by purple belts I would try to figure out why but I might also ask for help. Lets say I realize my guard passing sucks and so I try to work on it but Im still getting beaten in that case I would ask about what Im doing wrong so I can work on it and with some work be able to hold my own against purple belts and get a purple belt. However, with some styles it isn't so obvious as to why a person is stuck. I was using BJJ as an example since somebody pointed out how it generally takes 2 1/2 years in BJJ to advance and so I was saying that if I was doing BJJ that's how long I would expect before I advanced. Advancements in some styles don't entirely depend on being able to hold your own in a sparring match against people who are a belt higher than you. This is particularly true in styles where forms or katas play a big role in advancement. 

Yes you're right that instructors can run their dojos as they see fit and since we both agree on it not being disrespectful to ask about rank perhaps you were not the best person to ask. I can see how it could be considered disrespectful to ask questions such as "am I testing?" or "when will I test?" but I personally don't see anything wrong with asking stuff such as "what do I need to do to be ready to test?" I think its good for a sensei to tell a student "the reason you're not ready is because blah blah blah, this is what you need to work on," and that if a sensei isn't telling a student that outright I don't see it as a problem if the student asks. Again that is just me and as you said everybody does it differently. I just want to know why some people would have a problem with that but as you agree with me you wouldn't be the right person to ask. 

As for instructors who might take offense to a student asking what I mentioned above or who might consider it disrespectful, as for knowing if your instructor is like that, you're not going to know without asking in the first place, are you?


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> If I was a blue belt in BJJ and I kept getting beaten by purple belts I would try to figure out why but I might also ask for help. Lets say I realize my guard passing sucks and so I try to work on it but Im still getting beaten in that case I would ask about what Im doing wrong so I can work on it and with some work be able to hold my own against purple belts and get a purple belt. However, with some styles it isn't so obvious as to why a person is stuck. I was using BJJ as an example since somebody pointed out how it generally takes 2 1/2 years in BJJ to advance and so I was saying that if I was doing BJJ that's how long I would expect before I advanced. Advancements in some styles don't entirely depend on being able to hold your own in a sparring match against people who are a belt higher than you. This is particularly true in styles where forms or katas play a big role in advancement.
> 
> Yes you're right that instructors can run their dojos as they see fit and since we both agree on it not being disrespectful to ask about rank perhaps you were not the best person to ask. I can see how it could be considered disrespectful to ask questions such as "am I testing?" or "when will I test?" but I personally don't see anything wrong with asking stuff such as "what do I need to do to be ready to test?" I think its good for a sensei to tell a student "the reason you're not ready is because blah blah blah, this is what you need to work on," and that if a sensei isn't telling a student that outright I don't see it as a problem if the student asks. Again that is just me and as you said everybody does it differently. I just want to know why some people would have a problem with that but as you agree with me you wouldn't be the right person to ask.
> 
> As for instructors who might take offense to a student asking what I mentioned above or who might consider it disrespectful, as for knowing if your instructor is like that, you're not going to know without asking in the first place, are you?



Then ask the right question. Imbue yourself with the right first question to ask.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Then ask the right question. Imbue yourself with the right first question to ask.



So another words, first ask your instructor if its right to ask questions about belts and rank before you ask about stuff like that.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> So another words, first ask your instructor if its right to ask questions about belts and rank before you ask about stuff like that.



Or, as has been said before... shut up and train.


----------



## Tgace

A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a great and famous swordsman. When he arrived at the school he was given an audience with the founder, who was impressed that this young boy had made such a long journey.

'What do you want from me?' the master asked.

'I wish to be your student and become the finest swordsman in the land,' the boy replied. 'How long must I study?'

'Ten years at least,' the master answered.

'Ten years is a long time. What if I studied twice as hard as all your other students?'

'Twenty years,' replied the master.

'Twenty years! What if I practiced unrelentingly, day and night with all my effort?'

'Thirty years,' replied the master.

'How is it that each time I say I will work harder you tell me that it will take longer?' the student asked, quite confused by now.

'The answer is clear,' said the master.

'When there is one eye fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way.' 

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## PhotonGuy

For a sensei to not test or promote a student when the student isn't ready, the sensei is only doing their job. Lets face it, a good sensei will not promote a student who isn't ready. The problem is, if you don't know why you aren't being promoted. Not getting a belt is one thing, not knowing why you aren't getting the belt is something else.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> For a sensei to not test or promote a student when the student isn't ready, the sensei is only doing their job. Lets face it, a good sensei will not promote a student who isn't ready. The problem is, if you don't know why you aren't being promoted. Not getting a belt is one thing, not knowing why you aren't getting the belt is something else.



Then surely if the student does not know, then perhaps that is the fundamental problem. The student has not, or is not listening.


----------



## Blindside

Tgace said:


> A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a great and famous swordsman. When he arrived at the school he was given an audience with the founder, who was impressed that this young boy had made such a long journey.
> 
> 'What do you want from me?' the master asked.
> 
> 'I wish to be your student and become the finest swordsman in the land,' the boy replied. 'How long must I study?'
> 
> 'Ten years at least,' the master answered.
> 
> 'Ten years is a long time. What if I studied twice as hard as all your other students?'
> 
> 'Twenty years,' replied the master.
> 
> 'Twenty years! What if I practiced unrelentingly, day and night with all my effort?'
> 
> 'Thirty years,' replied the master.
> 
> 'How is it that each time I say I will work harder you tell me that it will take longer?' the student asked, quite confused by now.
> 
> 'The answer is clear,' said the master.
> 
> 'When there is one eye fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way.'
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



I never liked that parable, you think Michael Jordan never strove to be the best?  Or if we are going to keep it to swordsmanship, Miyamoto Musashi?


----------



## Tgace

Blindside said:


> I never liked that parable, you think Michael Jordan never strove to be the best?  Or if we are going to keep it to swordsmanship, Miyamoto Musashi?


I think your misunderstanding the point. The student was more interested in his timeline than he was in what was actually involved in learning the skill. His statement regarding ten years to mastery being "too long" is the point to this parable 

Its like the student whos first question is "how many years till I get my black belt?". You get it when you deserve it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Or, as has been said before... shut up and train.



That's all fine and dandy but there does come a time when you've got to use your mouth. After all, its there for a reason, isn't it?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a great and famous swordsman. When he arrived at the school he was given an audience with the founder, who was impressed that this young boy had made such a long journey.
> 
> 'What do you want from me?' the master asked.
> 
> 'I wish to be your student and become the finest swordsman in the land,' the boy replied. 'How long must I study?'
> 
> 'Ten years at least,' the master answered.
> 
> 'Ten years is a long time. What if I studied twice as hard as all your other students?'
> 
> 'Twenty years,' replied the master.
> 
> 'Twenty years! What if I practiced unrelentingly, day and night with all my effort?'
> 
> 'Thirty years,' replied the master.
> 
> 'How is it that each time I say I will work harder you tell me that it will take longer?' the student asked, quite confused by now.
> 
> 'The answer is clear,' said the master.
> 
> 'When there is one eye fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way.'
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



Yes this story has been posted on this forum before. Anyway, here is where Im coming from and I've said this before on this thread. If I was that student and the master told me it would take ten years to become a master swordsman as it is in the story, than I would expect to take ten years. To get good it takes time, and you can't rush it or it will just take you longer. Lets face it, haste makes waste. However, if it was taking me longer than ten years I would want to know why. If ten years had passed and Im not at the level that I expect to be at I would want to know why and I don't see any problem with asking at that point. Some people say it would be disrespectful to ask, I would like to see where they're coming from.


----------



## Tgace

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes this story has been posted on this forum before. Anyway, here is where Im coming from and I've said this before on this thread. If I was that student and the master told me it would take ten years to become a master swordsman as it is in the story, than I would expect to take ten years. To get good it takes time, and you can't rush it or it will just take you longer. Lets face it, haste makes waste. However, if it was taking me longer than ten years I would want to know why. If ten years had passed and Im not at the level that I expect to be at I would want to know why and I don't see any problem with asking at that point. Some people say it would be disrespectful to ask, I would like to see where they're coming from.



Some people...well....suck. 

If someone I was training asked me "how long"? I may tell them the average student will reach proficiency in (X) years. YOU (the hypothetical "you"...not you) on the other hand may...well....suck.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> I never liked that parable, you think Michael Jordan never strove to be the best?  Or if we are going to keep it to swordsmanship, Miyamoto Musashi?



Sure he did but Michael Jordan was also patient. He practiced hard but the fact of the matter is that Jordan wasn't all that good at basketball when he was a kid. He even got cut from his high school basketball team so you can see just how patient he had to be to get to the level that he was at. At his prime Jordan was arguably the best basketball player in the entire history of the sport but if he hadn't been patient he might've not made it to that level. However, if Jordan got stuck or if he was having trouble reaching a certain level in basketball Im sure he wouldn't hesitate to ask his coach and I seriously doubt that would be seen as disrespectful.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> I think your misunderstanding the point. The student was more interested in his timeline than he was in what was actually involved in learning the skill. His statement regarding ten years to mastery being "too long" is the point to this parable
> 
> Its like the student whos first question is "how many years till I get my black belt?". You get it when you deserve it.



Most instructors will tell a new student how long on the average it takes to get a black belt if the student asks. That doesn't mean the student will necessarily get a black belt in that amount of time, its just an average as to how long it takes most students. As to how long it takes the student to meet the instructor's standards for deserving the black belt, that would depend on the student and on stuff such as their attitude, their devotion, their commitment, and on whether or not they train smart as well as hard.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> Some people...well....suck.
> 
> If someone I was training asked me "how long"? I may tell them the average student will reach proficiency in (X) years. YOU (the hypothetical "you"...not you) on the other hand may...well....suck.



You don't know beforehand if a new student is going to suck or not and usually its the students that suck that don't last. For a student to not suck, that depends most of all on the student's attitude. Its the students that suck that give up, that's why you don't see them around for long.


----------



## Tgace

The whole concept is erroneous though. You are a student your whole life. To think that there is some mysterious "THERE" point you can set is wrongminded.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Which approach is better?

1. You push yourself so hard, you hate it, and you finally quit.
2. You didn't push yourself too hard, you enjoy of doing it, and you are still doing it when you are 90 years old.

whenever I went to the gym and heard someone who painfully screamed when he tried to lift weight that more than he could handle, I always assume that person would quit some day.


----------



## Tgace

I think this is a mindset created by ranks and belts. A rather modern innovation.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> That's all fine and dandy but there does come a time when you've got to use your mouth. After all, its there for a reason, isn't it?




Yes but this isn't the sort of site that one can list the uses of the mouth on.


----------



## ShotoNoob

K-man said:


> I like to be fashionably late. When I get there, the queue for the food is much shorter and those in front of me are all hot and sweaty.


|
OR, there is no food left--it's all been eaten....


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Yes but this isn't the sort of site that one can list the uses of the mouth on.



Please, we are British


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> That's all fine and dandy but there does come a time when you've got to use your mouth. After all, its there for a reason, isn't it?



Yes. But you have to be able to back it up. In many cases one just has presence to lean on. That is cool, but equally one has to know when to be humble. Basically just shut up train and more importantly listen for that opening, or just listen. IMHO


----------



## drop bear

We would be more than happy for someone to walk into our gym and say he wants to be the best fighter in the world.

Then we would work him like a dog to help him achieve that.

Obviously if he trains harder and more often he will achieve more sooner.

Pushing for a black belt may be different. But then that is an issue with the belt system not the person.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Pushing for a black belt may be different. But then that is an issue with the belt system not the person.



Think that is a bit Black and White. What about if the person is okay with what the art, just not brilliant. So therefore they cannot fit into "the system"?


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Think that is a bit Black and White. What about if the person is okay with what the art, just not brilliant. So therefore they cannot fit into "the system"?



That is fine as well.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> That is fine as well.



As long as there is something to compensate. Then again that would really suggest MMA really as the answer.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> As long as there is something to compensate. Then again that would really suggest MMA really as the answer.



For someone who wants to be rewarded for effort. Sort of yeah. I mean if you are doing martial arts that are slowing your progress down. I just don't see that.

Now if you want to cruise by. That is also fine. 

There is room for both kinds of martial artists.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> For someone who wants to be rewarded for effort. Sort of yeah. I mean if you are doing martial arts that are slowing your progress down. I just don't see that.
> 
> Now if you want to cruise by. That is also fine.
> 
> There is room for both kinds of martial artists.



Well cruising by would okay if experimentation was taking place. Still though, if a person had their heart set on a particular art and struggling with it was what I was alluding to.


----------



## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Well cruising by would okay if experimentation was taking place. Still though, if a person had their heart set on a particular art and struggling with it was what I was alluding to.



Then they are really only going to get better at that art by spending time and effort on it.

My view is it is almost a basic numbers game. So to understand a technique you have to repeat it a thousand times.(this is just a random number) Now you can do that in a week or you can do that in five years.

It just depends on how much time and effort the person put in.


----------



## Transk53

drop bear said:


> Then they are really only going to get better at that art by spending time and effort on it.
> 
> My view is it is almost a basic numbers game. So to understand a technique you have to repeat it a thousand times.(this is just a random number) Now you can do that in a week or you can do that in five years.
> 
> It just depends on how much time and effort the person put in.



True. But there is no point putting effort in no matter how time and if for want of a better term, thier crap at it. For as many that fall in love with art, there are bound just as many who don't, plus a few who are unsure. Spend five years no problem, but they run the risk of turning into artitsts that while graded, could become disenchanted for good. Latter time won't solve that imho.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> The whole concept is erroneous though. You are a student your whole life. To think that there is some mysterious "THERE" point you can set is wrongminded.



Well that's true. The journey itself is never ending. However there are points when you reach new legs in the journey.


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## PhotonGuy

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which approach is better?
> 
> 1. You push yourself so hard, you hate it, and you finally quit.
> 2. You didn't push yourself too hard, you enjoy of doing it, and you are still doing it when you are 90 years old.
> 
> whenever I went to the gym and heard someone who painfully screamed when he tried to lift weight that more than he could handle, I always assume that person would quit some day.


I would say a balance. There does come a point when you are pushing yourself too hard and it becomes detrimental but you do have to push yourself to some extent if you want to make progress. 

And as for pushing yourself too hard, take Bruce Lee for instance, he pushed himself harder than most people would imagine pushing themselves, and he always loved it and never quit.


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## PhotonGuy

Tgace said:


> I think this is a mindset created by ranks and belts. A rather modern innovation.



All systems and all skills and practices have rank of some sort. Even martial arts styles that don't use rank, they have a ranking system of a sort in that theres students and instructors and theres different levels of instructors, head instructor, senior instructor, assistant instructor, ect.

Even activities other than martial arts have ranks of some sort. In sports such as swimming and running how good you are is based on the time it takes you to run or swim to the finish line and when I was on the swim team back in the day you would be placed in a certain group depending on your skill level. So everything has ranks of some sort.


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## PhotonGuy

drop bear said:


> We would be more than happy for someone to walk into our gym and say he wants to be the best fighter in the world.
> 
> Then we would work him like a dog to help him achieve that.
> 
> Obviously if he trains harder and more often he will achieve more sooner.
> 
> Pushing for a black belt may be different. But then that is an issue with the belt system not the person.


Cool, I would love to train at your gym.


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## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Yes. But you have to be able to back it up. In many cases one just has presence to lean on. That is cool, but equally one has to know when to be humble. Basically just shut up train and more importantly listen for that opening, or just listen. IMHO



I agree with being humble and all but shutting up and training isn't always the best thing to do if you want to progress and I speak from my own experience. I see nothing wrong with a student humbly asking what they need to do to get to the next belt or level, especially if its taking them longer than usual to advance. And besides, asking questions is a form of humility because by asking a question you're admitting that you don't know the answer because if you did know the answer you wouldn't be asking in the first place.


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## Tez3

Don't ask too humbly or be  too humble because that's really annoying, smacks of boot licking to use a polite phrase.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree with being humble and all but shutting up and training isn't always the best thing to do if you want to progress and I speak from my own experience. I see nothing wrong with a student humbly asking what they need to do to get to the next belt or level, especially if its taking them longer than usual to advance. And besides, asking questions is a form of humility because by asking a question you're admitting that you don't know the answer because if you did know the answer you wouldn't be asking in the first place.



Well yeah you have decent point there. Aside from some learning disadvantage, I really quite get the longer than usual to advance. Surely that is suggestive that a student may not necessarily being learning the right thing. Still though, the latter I agree with, although not necessarily the way you see it. There may just be a strand of knowledge that just needs a little substantiating, as opposed to not knowing completely, but in the main questions are good. I guess the real important thing is to ask at an appropriate time of the instructor. In this sense the students you are with are equally important if it is obvious that a student is struggling.


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## K-man

PhotonGuy said:


> Well that's true. The journey itself is never ending. However there are points when you reach new legs in the journey.


I agree with the first part but I'm not so sure about the second. In my experience there are points along the path where you have to choose the direction you will take. It may be the path you choose brings you back to your original path or it may diverge. The paths you choose will be determined by a number of factors ... age, interests, time etc. Sometimes you might be on two or three paths at the same time and often those paths will cross or run side by side.

Reaching 'a new leg' implies that you are still on the same path.


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## Xue Sheng

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

--Robert Frost


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## K-man

Xue Sheng said:


> Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
> I took the one less traveled by,
> And that has made all the difference.
> 
> --Robert Frost


Exactly!


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Don't ask too humbly or be  too humble because that's really annoying, smacks of boot licking to use a polite phrase.



That's what they would expect out of you in the military, but then again, martial arts training isn't the military.


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## PhotonGuy

K-man said:


> I agree with the first part but I'm not so sure about the second. In my experience there are points along the path where you have to choose the direction you will take. It may be the path you choose brings you back to your original path or it may diverge. The paths you choose will be determined by a number of factors ... age, interests, time etc. Sometimes you might be on two or three paths at the same time and often those paths will cross or run side by side.
> 
> Reaching 'a new leg' implies that you are still on the same path.



Your path can change but there are times when you do reach new legs and when you do reach a new leg your path might or might not change. For instance, in styles with ranking systems that use the black belt you could say the black belt is a new leg in the journey. I've known students that upon getting a brown belt or black belt start exploring and cross training in other styles. Quite often, after getting a black belt a student will train even harder than before they go it. Upon reaching black belt, they expect more out of you, but aside from that, you expect more out of yourself, so you could say its a new leg. For a more in depth discussion on this see my post in the General Mrtial Arts Talk folder.
Its about the journey not the destination MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


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## K-man

PhotonGuy said:


> Your path can change but there are times when you do reach new legs and when you do reach a new leg your path might or might not change. For instance, in styles with ranking systems that use the black belt you could say the black belt is a new leg in the journey. I've known students that upon getting a brown belt or black belt start exploring and cross training in other styles. Quite often, after getting a black belt a student will train even harder than before they go it. Upon reaching black belt, they expect more out of you, but aside from that, you expect more out of yourself, so you could say its a new leg. For a more in depth discussion on this see my post in the General Mrtial Arts Talk folder.
> Its about the journey not the destination MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


I would say that achieving a particular grade is a point along the way, not a change of direction. A new leg would imply a change of direction. That may be a different method of training or a change of instructors. What I was referring to was a point where you have the choice of continuing to train the way you were or leaving the path you are on and taking a different path.


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## PhotonGuy

K-man said:


> I would say that achieving a particular grade is a point along the way, not a change of direction. A new leg would imply a change of direction. That may be a different method of training or a change of instructors. What I was referring to was a point where you have the choice of continuing to train the way you were or leaving the path you are on and taking a different path.



Here is the word "leg" as defined in the Marriam Webster dictionary.

1*:*  a limb of an animal used especially for supporting the body and for walking: as

a (1) *:*  one of the paired vertebrate limbs that in bipeds extend from the top of the thigh to the foot (2) *:*  the part of such a limb between the knee and foot

b *:*  the back half of a hindquarter of a meat animal

c *:*  one of the rather generalized segmental appendages of an arthropod used in walking and crawling
2
a *:*  a pole or bar serving as a support or prop <the _legs_ of a tripod>

b *:*  a branch of a forked or jointed object <the _legs_ of a compass>
3
a *:*  the part of an article of clothing that covers the leg

b *:*  the part of the upper (as of a boot) that extends above the ankle
4
*:* obeisance, bow —used chiefly in the phrase _to make a leg_
5
*:*  a side of a right triangle that is not the hypotenuse; _also_ *:*  a side of an isosceles triangle that is not the base
6
a *:*  the course and distance sailed by a boat on a single tack
*b :  a portion of a trip : **stage*
c *:*  one section of a relay race

d *:*  one of several events or games necessary to be won to decide a competition <won the first two _legs_ of horse racing's Triple Crown>
7
*:*  a branch or part of an object or system
8
_plural_ *:*  long-term appeal or interest <a news story with _legs_>

The word leg, as we are using it, I would say fits the definition of 6b, "a portion of a trip : stage"
so you could say when you reach a new leg in a journey is a point along the way as you put it. You reach a certain point and then start on another portion of your trip or journey. That new portion can involve a change in direction or it might not. Much like if you're driving on a road trip, you stop for the night at a hotel, and then you continue on your trip. Your destination is the same, but when you reach the hotel and then from there continue on the rest of your trip, you could call that a new leg in your trip, but you aren't changing directions. The same thing with the martial arts. Although you can sometimes change direction in your martial arts training, that doesn't mean you always will and when you reach a certain point and then proceed forthwith, I would say that's reaching a new leg, whether you change direction or not. At least that's how it would best fit the definition of 6b.


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## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
> I took the one less traveled by,
> And that has made all the difference.
> 
> --Robert Frost




Thought you'd like this if you like that poem. Clive Fewins - Journalist Author - Exploring Churches


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