# Hiding behind Roberts' skirts.....



## glad2bhere (Apr 26, 2004)

Dear Frank Clay: 

"......Bruce, insulting competance is against the rules. Further, it is unethical for you to judge the competancy, knowledge or ethics of others, particularly those you have not met......" 

It is bad enough that your information is inaccurate. It is worse that you shelter your lack of accurate information behind feigned insult or injury. It is worse yet that Robert helps you in this way. 

Revealing ones' incompetence is not the same as insulting ones' competence. Nor is reporting on the competency, knowledge or ethics of another unethical when the actions of that same person have been revealed --- by that person--- to the Korean Martial Arts community. On the other hand the place where you have run to ground is interesting. Mayhaps Robert will sell you a standing in the KMAIA, yes? I understand that it is the "premier" martial art organization in Korea and that Koreans cannot teach martial arts without becoming a member. But of course you needn't take MY word for it. Go check with Richard or Joe. All you have to figure out is what rock they have chosen to crawl back under. 

Bruce


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## Chris from CT (Apr 27, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> frankclay said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Bruce.
I am all for telling someone their "information" is wrong, especially when it is for marketing purposes only like Mr. H used to do, but neither you or I have seen Frank on the mat.  Couldn't it be that he really does have the skills and that he was evaluated for and shown to be of that standard by Julian Lim?  Yeah, I know where Frank originally trained and got rank, but is the above not possible?  

When you said, "On the other hand the place where you have run to ground is interesting. "  Is there something wrong with Julian Lim.  I have only heard good things in the past.

Take care.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 27, 2004)

Dear Chris: 

Excellent point!! And I want to make this absolutely 100% clear. There is NOTHING wrong with Julian Lim! And there is nothing wrong with Frank aligning himself with Julian Lim. Nothing. It is NOT WHAT Frank has done, or is doing. It is the WAY that he does it. I think your post says it very well. Is there a problem with Frank aligning with Julian? No. Is there a problem with Frank getting a 4th, 5th, or 6th BB in Hapkido? No.  Is there a problem when the Hapkido community in general has a person with a 5th degree BB that it has not seen on the mat, who does not present himself in a transparent manner to the Hapkido community to be assessed by his peers, and who runs for the cover of a like-minded personage when he is challenged? Yer damn right theres' a problem. If there is a person who says they have a  high rank or standing in the Hapkido community it is not enough for that person to simply say, "I got my rank from so&so". Pelligrini has his standing from In Sun Seo. He still gets out in seminars. I personally don't think much of his ability but then he may not think much of mine. But at least he is out in front of the Hapkido community so that the community can validate (for better of worse) his ability. Chris, the Hapkido community is suffering right now and this is the only way we are going to win back our integrity. Is it painful. Yes. Is it scarey? Damn right! I am more than a little apprehensive about my test in June. And I don't have to do it as I already HAVE my 4th recently from GM Myung. But this is what its going to take.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Chris from CT (Apr 27, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Is there a problem when the Hapkido community in general has a person with a 5th degree BB that it has not seen on the mat, who does not present himself in a transparent manner to the Hapkido community to be assessed by his peers, and who runs for the cover of a like-minded personage when he is challenged? Yer damn right theres' a problem.



How do we know he has not been seen on the mat?  Until I train with Frank or watch him teach/train, I give him and Julian Lim the benefit of the doubt that what was witnessed at Frank's evaluation was good skill and technique.  This is very similar to you and I.  We haven't seen each other on the mat before, but from what I hear from people I respect they they tell me you've got skill.  
_Oh and I do look forward to it some day soon._ 

Reputation plays alot into someone's standing in the exposed Hapkido community.  You hear good things and bad things about everybody, but the things that usually stick are the ones you hear from someone you repect. Now in your case Bruce, your past with Frank and his connections with Mr. H. I can see how you are less likely to give him the benefit of the doubt.  

But at this moment in time, can you honestly say with all certainty that he can't skillfully back up his current ranking?

I'm not big on the "presenting one's self," but I just hope that we can get together and "throw down."  I hope to see him in Jackson or some other event in the future as that way he can meet and train with many others in the community.  




			
				glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I am more than a little apprehensive about my test in June.



Good luck with that! :cheers: 

Take care


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## glad2bhere (Apr 27, 2004)

Dear Chris: 

You are speaking to exactly the heart of the matter. Simply put, we DON'T know. But lets take a look at the norms for the Martial arts--- or specifically for the KMA, 'kay? 

Rudy Timmerman: 

Heres a guy who is over 60. He doesn't have to leave Canada if he doesn't feel like it. But he does. I was at a seminar in Chicago here that he did right after getting off the plane from Texas. He was out on the mat and taught for 2-4 hours. Some people give him a bum rap for being too commercial and some people knock him for having his own MA. But the fact is that he gets out on the mat and does what he says and says what he does. Nobody has to wonder what his skill level is. For better or worse its out there for everyone to see.

JR West: 

Heres another guy who is over 60. He doesn't have to leave Mississippi if he doesn't feel like it. But he does. I was at a seminar in Wisconsin that he did right after getting out of the Stealth van from Jackson. He was out on the mat and taught for 2-4 hours, and that was AFTER a short demo. Some people give him a bum rap for being too commercial and some people knock him for having his own organization. But the fact is that he gets out on the mat and does what he says and says what he does. In fact I have yet to attend an event where he doesn't teach a class AND participate in the demo part of the event. Nobody has to wonder what his skill level is. For better or worse its out there for everyone to see.


Want to get exotic? How about Funakoshi and Ueyshiba who taught their respective martial arts until their 80-s and were on the mat doing and saying damn near until they died.Nobody had to wonder what their skill levels were. For better or worse it was out there for everyone to see.


Want to get mundane? How about the gueppies who can expect to test at regular intervals. JR West eschews testing but thats when his folks hit 3rd BB but THEY are still getting out on the mat in front of Gawd and the World to demonstrate exactly where their skills are at. Nobody had to wonder what their skill levels are. For better or worse it is right out there for everyone to see.

This is not some personal vendetta towards Frank Clay. It is a personal campaign against the "Frank Clay" way of doing business. You don't shoot your mouth off like you know what you are talking about and then retreat to a Net where you need not fear being held accountable because as friend runs interference for you. You don't let everyone know that you have an "Oh Dan" and then carefully avoid the Hapkido community an opportunity to view your skills. Its just not done that way. This is what we saw with that OTHER clown from Florida. Broadcasting from an Internet radio until the heat drove him off the air. Shooting from the hip on a Net where Robert Carver and Ed Annibel respectively ran interference for him. Broadcasting that he was a "grandmaster" but carefully avoiding being seen on the mat in all but the most protective circumstances. It just not the way that its done. 

In my own case I don't go to other schools, give seminars, attend events such as the Hapkido Internationale or continue to submitt to my teacher because I expect I am going to learn some phenomenal new skill. I go so that people can know who I am and what I can do. And if somebody says, "yeah, I saw Sims on the mat and gawd does he ever suck" then so be it. But I don't sit at home behind a computer and advise everybody about my rank and then spend time explaining how I never quite get around to being seen by the Hapkido community at large. Its just not the way that its done.

Finally, to finish off this rant let me nail GM Lim. Do you know how bad his technique is, Chris? You want to know how bad his teaching skill is? The guy really sucks, doesn't he? See? Even as you are reading this you KNOW thats crap because you have been to his classes/seminars, you have witnessed his teaching skill, probably even felt his technique-- at least I have---- and you know what he is capable of. Its a kind of reputation insurance, isn't it? THATS the way that its done. 

I'm real sorry that clowns and 8-balls have made a mess of things in the Hapkido community. I wish they hadn't. You have people thinking they can have Black Belts in a couple of years, certification for the right price and no accountability for whatever curriculum they whip together. This crap has got to stop or there won't BE a Hapkido or Hapkido arts, just crowds of morons running around making big claims and sporting fancy uniforms and selling rank. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Apr 27, 2004)

Bruce, you gotta let people know when good news/things happen...............
"I already HAVE my 4th recently from GM Myung"

Congratulations.  :cheers: 

I understand where your coming from, but Chris does offer some good insight. Yes, the mat is the only true measure of respectability. At some place and time, we all must venture onto the mat or just be forced to walk away. Again, good luck in June. If Chris happens to attend and you have a little extra time, drag yourselves down to Tampa for a little visit and play time. The welcome mat is always out.


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## Chris from CT (Apr 27, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> If Chris happens to attend and you have a little extra time, drag yourselves down to Tampa for a little visit and play time. The welcome mat is always out.



Thank you! How far is that from Sarasota?  I may be visiting my folks down there within the year.

Take care.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 27, 2004)

Dear Disco: 

You know, you have dangled that out there a couple of times. I really think maybe we ought to see if there is a way to get together even if its only an afternoon---- even if its the next day after the actual Seminar and test. I have not bought the plane tickets yet, but I understand that the event is over in late afternoon. I have no idea what time as I am sitting here writing and I don't know what they would be doing after. Maybe we could arrange something for the day after (Monday?) and that way there wouldn't be any time limts, distractions etc. Thoughts? Its not like we have to put things in concrete right this minute, but give it a thought and then maybe we can network with anyone else who wants to get together. 

BTW: Thanks for the congrats, but I still feel that the real imprimateur comes from my peers. I wouldn't second guess GM Myung. If he thinks I have it coming, well and good. But my value system still holds. I'm only as good as my last technique, and my teaching is only as good as my students report, and my standing is only as good as my peers' recognition. FWIW.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Chris from CT (Apr 27, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Chris:
> 
> You are speaking to exactly the heart of the matter. Simply put, we DON'T know. But lets take a look at the norms for the Martial arts--- or specifically for the KMA, 'kay?
> 
> ...



It's good to have guys like these around.  Spending a little time with them on and off the mat means alot to me.  They rarely "talk the talk," but they certainly "walk the walk."   Now playing devil's advocate yet again... Not everyone makes their living at the martial arts and are able to get around to train all over the place.  They have other priorities.  What about them?  Are they less of a practitioner becuase of that?  




			
				glad2bhere said:
			
		

> You don't shoot your mouth off like you know what you are talking about and then retreat to a Net where you need not fear being held accountable because as friend runs interference for you.



BudoSeek is Robert's board and he runs it as he sees fit.  Frank gave his point of view and you gave yours.  If Frank blasted you, Robert would have told Frank he was wrong and to back off.  I believe this becuase he has told Hackworh in the past when other mods didn't.  As we have seen from recent occurances, the rules are getting more strict as far as how things are said over there.  We can give our point of view, but when we start to talk about the invalidity of another that is where the rules state that is a no no.  It is upto the readers to then decide on what is correct from what each person brings to the table instead of deciding on who mudslings better (even if it is the truth).  Sorry to say, but Frank knows how to play within those rules a little better than you do.  :jedi1: 

With this age of the internet we can get alot of information out there, but we cannot get to understand how good a person's technique is.  Once again here is where reputation comes into play and how much value do you put into one person's word over another.  

Hey, I'm a show me kind of guy.  I give more credit to the guys that stick their heads up from their holes and see what's going on.  I like getting out there and "throwing down."  It's a win/win situation In my book.  I'll end up helping someone with their knowledge of the martial arts and/or they help me with mine.  I'll do it as long as I can.  For one, it keeps things in perspective and two, it helps to build relationships within the MA community.  Unfortunately, that's something that seems to be lacking now-a-days.

Take care   :asian:


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## glad2bhere (Apr 27, 2004)

Dear Chris: 

".....It's good to have guys like these around. Spending a little time with them on and off the mat means alot to me. They rarely "talk the talk," but they certainly "walk the walk." Now playing devil's advocate yet again... Not everyone makes their living at the martial arts and are able to get around to train all over the place. They have other priorities. What about them? Are they less of a practitioner becuase of that?...." 

Not at all. 

I think its a matter of degree. You and I have communicated back and forth for a while. We have the chance that in the near future we will probably connect on this mat or that. If its not at one of Lims' seminars, it might be at an AHA get-together, or maybe this pre-test coming up this coming weekend, or June in Florida--- whatever. But we WILL probably bump elbows/heads/butts sooner or later.  In the case of someone exhibiting Franks' disposition he has been in front of people for three years now. First as an advocate for Hackworth, then in an adversarsial role towards Hackworth (a victim if you like) and now as an advocate for KOMA and Julian Lim. In those three years I have never seen him on the mat. I don't know anyone who has seen him on the mat. Now I could understand if maybe he can't make it to the Internationale one year. Or he couldn't make it to a KHF test one year. Or he couldn't make it to a NKMAA event one year. But after three years of being high-profile but not getting on the mat with anybody whose skills at assessing quality practice I value I begin to wonder. His teacher isn't known to me. Julian is working to build an organization of his own and is looking for experienced managers and thats fine. I think I could be forgiven if I thought that Julians' motives might easily be influenced a bit. And can I ignore the solicitation going on behind the scenes to maybe Hal Whalen, Fabian DuQue or JR West if this guy REALLY goes off the deep end and blatantly starts making the rounds trying to get his foot in the door and get validation for himself from someone albeit under the table? Do YOU have any idea why somebody would go to Malaysia for their standing when there are perhaps a dozen top-notch practitioners with reputable standing he could have approached here in the States? Whats wrong with Ji Han Jae? Hell, Ji produced such disparate students as MY teacher and still makes room for the Choson-do people!! How much more easy going could he be? What about Han Bong Soo? Even In Sun Seo and the World Kido Assn? And I haven't even mentioned second and third generation practitioners like myself. Whats in Malaysia? So this guy doesn't have the money to go to the Internationale in Miss., but he can make it to Alabama or Florida for Julian Lims" seminar? He can't go to the KHF Masters' seminar in Florida but he can fly to Malaysia? How about the whole KOMA thing? "US Director, KOMA"? This guy supposedly speaks as rep for a burgeoning international organization but can't deal with the fact that some goofy sa-dan from the American Midwest pokes around at his statements and sends him running for cover. 

Like I said before, this isn't a personal vendetta. I hold only that people who don't know better are going to read this guys' material and think he knows what hes' talking about. I'm not leadership material and I don't pretend to be. My expectations are too high, and I do not suffer idiots lightly. But if this guy has any such aspirations someone needs to get him up to speed on what being a leader means.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Apr 27, 2004)

Chris, I'm north about 55 miles. I-75 into Tampa/St Pete. Just give me a heads up on line and I'll give you actual directions and Ph#.

Bruce, if the seminar ends in the afternoon, perhaps they will keep the facility open for an after seminar get together. If that should be the case, It would be easier for me to drive up there (approx 2 hrs), then for you and whomever may want to join, to uproot and travel down here. No need to incur additional expenses. Just a thought, if the seminar host(s) should have no objections.


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## iron_ox (Apr 28, 2004)

Hello all,

I've read the little skirmish over on the other board, and as I see it, Clay insulted Sims first by calling him egotistical - quite a feat from a guy that opens dialogue on the web with "I am an Oh Dan" (Oh please...this is drama queen material).  The fact is that I believe that most don't read Bruce's stuff, they scan it, find a bit that they think is directed at them and then run with it.

As far as Frank Clay goes, he told us for quite a while that he was going to expose things of a bad nature when he got back to Florida...nothing yet.
Its really annoying that Frank says "Mr. Sims and I will have no further communication"  well, how long did that last?  

I do see Bruce's point though, Frank loves to play "I know" then ends up deferring to everyone else - first it was Hackworth, then Carver, now julian Lim.  There is always an issue that Frank feels backed into a corner and he says, talk to them, I have nothing else to say - well, if you get in the mix Frank, stay there and defend your position.  You have always felt that Bruce insulted your position to deal with your family issues, but  Bruce NEVER insinuated that, YOU create your own excuses then assume any of us give enough of a crap for a longwinded blah-blah session.  fact is, if you can't or ain't gonna do somethin', just say can't or won't, then you won't be offended when you think someone is questioning your motives...

Hey Chris, how are you?  I have to disagree about the Malaysian connection, when you have credentials that include a very fuzzy start in the country that I began my Hapkido training, the whole mess is suspect.  In addition, I believe that association hopping for rank is a sham - every major association that I know has a Malaysian request to join (same guy) but over the years the rank numbers have just kept going up.

Thanks,

Kevin Sogor


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 29, 2004)

Mr. Sogor, et al,

First of all... since you choose to discuss things which you were not a party to:

1) My wife is pegnant, and not doing well at all. To me anything to do with anything other than her must take second place. I'm sorry if you or anyone else disagrees with that stance, but it is the case.

2) I have not deferred to anyone other than Master Lim, per his request. Its that simple.

3) Mr. Sogor, I have also requested Mr. Sims leave me out of his dialogues, rants and the like. I have indicated a willingness to defend my name and am giving a last ditch effort. Remember, what is written on a web board is libal if not true.

4) I strongly recommend that we discuss Hapkido. Discussing likes or dislikes about people, their training, or the like, rarely gets us any further than a flame war. If we are to indicate that we are mature people then we must act like it. I am being persecuted by Bruce by something I had no knowledge of, and in actuality something that Hackworth and Connolly were actually right in. Bruce was slamming Mr. Hackworth from a government computer, and they complained. To the best of my knowledge, that is all that happened. It is unfortunate that Bruce was terminated because of it, but the thing is that HE is ultimately responsible for that act. Now if we can get to discussing something worth while wonderful. Don't blmae me for what happens in your life. I practice, and I don't complain about it. Rather than worrying about my practice, would it not seem that those who want to complain about me, should focus on their practice? I am impacting no one, I am not actively teaching, save for a few people that I have a personal relationship with spanning years... so what do you hope to accomplish? I have trained in Korean mudo for 25 years, and I plan to continue training. Nothing anyone does or says will stop me from training, and from finding new partners to train with. Those I teach, I don't charge (at this point) so its not like I have a financial stake in this.

Now moving on...


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## Seig (Apr 29, 2004)

Admin Note

This thread seems to have no purpose other than to attack Frank Clay.  This thread is being locked and if the attacks continue, the offender will face administrative action.
Seig
MT Admin


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