# If really want to know the truth



## Black Belt FC (Dec 2, 2004)

The truth of it all is the following Caution this will shock you so make sure to sit down first



*Belt Rank: *

The only people that go goggle over master belt rank are instructors. Students seek knowledge not dan worship or debate. Ultimately whoever maintains excellence student retention and relationships will keep their students and may have an opportunity to run a school.




*To be Hapkido or not to be:* 



Whatever the curriculum whether original, *Ji Han-Jae* Hapkido, or some made-up standard, it will not guarantee your long success as an instructor. What will is a solid curriculum that will inspire students to come back for more is a program that is easy to follow, effected and safe to practice. Who is the ultimate authority of what Hapkido is? The Master instructor of a school, he will instruct and guide others, whether you like it or not.



*Where is the future of Hapkido?*



Right there in your hand, sand slipping away into the ocean. Unless instructors put their pride aside and focus on finding new ways to teach a new generation of students the future looks bleak. Hapkido lives within the school walls where instructors focus more on their students and less on politics. 





*Hapkido training is rough* 



Hapkido is for everyone but not everyone can train in Hapkido face it. Only 20% of people can handle it (based on students who join my program) no one likes being thrown or touched.



*Who are the current leaders of Hapkido?*



Its the Masters that present themselves honestly with integrity and respectful. For me the current leaders are Whalen, Thomas, McMurray, Pinkowski* , *Timmerman and Seo Family. Why I choose them? They offer me friendship and had inspired me from the moment I met them. Theyre others like West but I havent met him or others yet.

*Who is the top leader in Hapkido?*

Whoever teaches the most students, makes the most friends and trains the longest.

Lugo


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## Disco (Dec 3, 2004)

Lugo, informative post........Thanks

Now a question, open to everybody, based upon the statement that Hapkido training is rough. Does the training have to be "rough" to actually make it effective?


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## iron_ox (Dec 3, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Lugo, informative post........Thanks
> 
> Now a question, open to everybody, based upon the statement that Hapkido training is rough. Does the training have to be "rough" to actually make it effective?




Hello Mike,

I don't think it needs to be "rough" - just good, old fashioned solid training will amke it effective - sure, you can throw someonme ONE time really rough -then you are done training for the day - or you can train solidly and throw someone hudreds of times in a day and both go home with knowlegde under your belt.

Maybe you should start a new thread on this, because the opening post in this thread far from informing me of anything left me confused and frankly "dumber" for having read it - glad I was "sitting down".


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## glad2bhere (Dec 3, 2004)

I don't know that Hapkido HAS to be rough but it usually works around to that, one way or another. Its a difficult art to learn and a hard art to practice. 

For instance there is actually very little conjecture in Hapkido. The person either is taken under the influence of the technique or they are not. There isn't much room for "....and a little closer and you would have been in REAL trouble."  Another point is that people really fall down, they really DO get twisted this way and that, people actually DO make physical contact and all of these things rub against the human grain. With this in mind I don't have to go out of my way making students do upteen sit-up or push-ups. Just doing the Hapkido material is enough to get them going. 

I also agree with the 20% number and may even make an arguement for a smaller percentage than that. Hapkido is an acquired taste. Its takes some thing to keep after it and then continue to refine things year after year beyond that. I have not even gotten into weapons, traveling expenses and all the rest of it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


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## Paul B (Dec 3, 2004)

> I don't know that Hapkido HAS to be rough but it usually works around to that, one way or another


I agree,it usually gets "rougher" the further along you go. Or sometimes on occasion when somebody says..."that wouldn't work...." because you weren't cranking on them like a madman. Sometimes people need to really feel the technique before they believe it. Don't get me wrong,I don't run around doing full technique on newbies,mostly I smile and keep practicing.



> Another point is that people really fall down, they really DO get twisted this way and that, people actually DO make physical contact and all of these things rub against the human grain.


It never ceases to amaze me when peoples' ego rises to the surface after a technique. What do they think they got into....knitting?It's supposed to hurt...jeesh.



> With this in mind I don't have to go out of my way making students do upteen sit-up or push-ups. Just doing the Hapkido material is enough to get them going.


Bruce,it is so nice to hear someone else thinks this way! Do you want a good warmup? How about after stretching a bit,you do some nauk bup instead of jumping jacks. At least you're working on something useful,instead of perfecting that awesome weapon...the pushup.



> I also agree with the 20% number


Awww mannnn.....You mean I have to WORK to get good??!! 

To close,I would like to say that while I don't believe it has to be "rough",I do feel that it (technique) needs to be firmly applied.That's my 2 c's.


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## kwanjang (Dec 3, 2004)

I personally let every student I work with "feel" the technique whether ion my school or at seminars.  Yes there IS pain, but it is not applied suddenly or with the intent to maim.  It is there so the student KNOWS what s/he is doing to others and can hopefully also control the technique so no one gets hurt.

Even the kids in my classes do not mind a little hurt now and then, and they all appreciate the fact that a bit of pain is associated with learning new techniques.


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## glad2bhere (Dec 3, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

I agree with what you are saying and I take it just a bit farther. By this I mean that I work to have everything done in class come back to the arts' material. For instance, while I start with a class of beginners doing jumping-jacks or burpees to get a "glow" going, its not too long before we are doing breakfalls for the same purpose. And when it comes to letting a student feel the technique, I always make sure that they get a chance to crank back on me with the same technique so that I can feel if they have the idea or not. Better me than some white belt partner who is not up to the challenge, right? 

All the same, I have never seen the Hapkido arts as appropriate for everyone. It truely is an acquired taste, which is why I think we are smart to encourage time on the mat as part of the requirements for rank advancement.  Let them Ease into it slowly, right? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Dec 3, 2004)

Hello Bruce:
I am right with you on getting the "feel" in return, because I think it is a great teaching tool.  EVERYTHING I do in my class is "sport/art specific", and I like to break things down into small segments of material to teach.

For example, I do not teach a front kick while beginners are standing up.  I teach them the foot position at EVERY opportunity while they are sitting down (as in splits or any other exercise program).  Similarly, I do not look for or ask for good foot position when they first learn to balance, I divide the two into two distinct learning areas. 

In my experience, new people cannot concentrate on the two things at once, so I break it down for them.  When they are sitting in the splits and they do NOT have a good front kick foot position, I rap them on the foot with my Jook Do.  So far no lawsuits lol.


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## Paul B (Dec 3, 2004)

> I am right with you on getting the "feel" in return, because I think it is a great teaching tool.


 
Ditto on that one.On the occasions when I have the opportunity to teach,I make sure everyone in the class does the technique we're working on to me,it's an outstanding "feedback" tool,if nothing else,it critiques your teaching style immediately.Good one!!  This is a big help to those of us who are just starting out!!


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## glad2bhere (Dec 4, 2004)

Dear Paul: 

I think that a very important distinction. There have been many times when a student will wrench around on me and I can honestly say that it DOES hurt! But then I have to go back and tell him that though the technique is painful its sloppy, or inaccurate or simply using muscle. Its surprising how often eye-brows furrow when I do this. Its almost as if there is a belief that it really doesn't matter how the technique is done as long as you can get a grimace out of your partner. I'll go out on a limb and bet that this is why a lot of the Hapkido arts stay stuck at the yu-sool level. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Dec 4, 2004)

this is why a lot of the Hapkido arts stay stuck at the yu-sool level.........

Bruce, with the understanding that under duress, motor skills change / vary. How would you define how to get to that level above yu-sool? It's a given that the more time and effort in training, one's technical prowess "should" expand towards that level, but at what time interval may one expect to achieve such proficiency, or does it actually matter if one never leaves the yu-sool level?

Mike


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## glad2bhere (Dec 4, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

".......It's a given that the more time and effort in training, one's technical prowess "should" expand towards that level, but at what time interval may one expect to achieve such proficiency, or does it actually matter if one never leaves the yu-sool level?........" 

I get hammered every time I speak to this subject but the fact remains that I am unswerved in how I see these matters. There will always be people who are more than satisfied not viewing the Hapkido arts as a Mu-Do or martial way. Some people will take this view because they don't have an interest in weapons, and others because they see any investment in a contemplation or adoption of a martial ethos in a modern culture as nothing more than intellectual masturbation. 

So, to answer your question, in like manner there will always be people who see the Hapkido arts as nothing more than a matter of physics essentially playing force, resistance, mass, velocity, balance, timing and a host of other variables against each other. And I can tell you that folks who arrive at this point can contentedly go on as before for their entire KMA career and probably not have a problem. The biggest risk that I can see to such a take would be that as they get older simple degrading of the body will begin to either cause them to learn some more sophisticated manner of execution or they gradually taper-off in their involvement and spend more time talking about Hapkido rather than doing it. 

The earliest key point I see is right about the time that a person makes a legit cho-dan or about 5 years into their career. They have already had the "Brown Belt Epiphany" in which things have started to come together for them and they begin to see a promise of how things might progress. When this happens they can either become seduced so as to stay where they are and exploit their skills until the age thing sets in, OR they can choose at this moment to move up to the next level of investigation or challenge. If they choose the former path there is nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of folks who have been engaged with the Hapkido arts on a yu-sool level and are very happy with it. If that same person elects to take the hapki-yu-sool track they will effectively start to reinvestigate everything they have learned already but from the position of impacting the partner's neuro-muscular networks. This is where things like "using an attackers strength against himself" really take on its truest meaning. How is this done? Well thats what folks who choose this path spend the next umpteen years finding out. Dojunim Kim characterizes it as "learning how to solve problems". One already knows a given technique on a Physics level, now the challenge is to translate it into a Neuro-muscular level. It gets a little confusing because people already use some of the things that the hapkiyusool level espouses but these are often seen as "little tricks" rather than a comprehensive approach. 

And that still leaves the "hapki-sool" level to explore!!  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B (Dec 4, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> snip... I have to go back and tell him that though the technique is painful its sloppy, or inaccurate or simply using muscle. Its surprising how often eye-brows furrow when I do this.


Well said....Sacrificing precision for speed,resulting in headbutting of force. It seems that people want to do what they are comfortable with. I was guilty of this one in my beginner days(and I guess I still am sometimes)...."Relax!...Relax!...Hey!...Relax your shoulders!" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







> Its almost as if there is a belief that it really doesn't matter how the technique is done as long as you can get a grimace out of your partner


Again...right on the $...Pain is the "motivation" not the goal....I've gotten a few "furrowed brows" from that one...I feel that pain should be considered just a part of a technique,I would even go as far as to say "transitional",pain is not the necessary.. "and here is the end of xyz technique." Of course....YMMV.


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## glad2bhere (Dec 5, 2004)

Dear Paul: 

Right on the money, except that its always important to get the right balance or mixture. I have had people come to my classes with Aikido background and try to apply that attitude towards the attacker in a Hapkido setting. It seems that the student is quite sure that anything that looks so much like Aikido should be easy to pick-up or apply the same philosophy to. I think this is where they find out that there is a huge diference between going through the motions with an overly-compliant partner and actually DOING the technique to a partner albeit with some restraint while the partner works to take care of himself by staying ahead of the technique. You said it quite well. The discomfort is part and parcel of the technique but not necessarily the end in itself. If that were true a whole lot of these techniques, which were formerly, joint and bone breaks, would not have been adjusted to compliance techniques instead.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Dec 5, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> this is why a lot of the Hapkido arts stay stuck at the yu-sool level.........
> 
> Bruce, with the understanding that under duress, motor skills change / vary. How would you define how to get to that level above yu-sool? It's a given that the more time and effort in training, one's technical prowess "should" expand towards that level, but at what time interval may one expect to achieve such proficiency, or does it actually matter if one never leaves the yu-sool level?
> 
> Mike



Hello Mike:
I was very surprised to see just how many "seasoned" (meaning high ranking) Hap Ki Doin had problems even trying to do Yu Sool breaking in Jackson.  It seemed that the very concept of "soft" was foreign to them, and the only way they could look at breaking concrete was by force.  You could see it in their very approach to the break.  

I also saw some younger and not so seasoned martial artists get the idea right away.  So, it seems to me that it has little to do with length of time, but rather it has to do with how you have lived your life to date.  

For example, larger people seemed to have more problems than smaller people, and I had several women do the break where some big men could not do it.  I came to the conclusion that, if you have relied on your physical strength all your life, it may be hard to believe in a new concept like Yu Sool.


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## glad2bhere (Dec 6, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

".....For example, larger people seemed to have more problems than smaller people, and I had several women do the break where some big men could not do it. I came to the conclusion that, if you have relied on your physical strength all your life, it may be hard to believe in a new concept like Yu Sool......" 

Sometimes I honestly don't know what to do for these folks. I have seen this many times with students at the college. Oddly its not usually big kids but smaller people (about my size) who have taken up weight-lifting or body-building. Everything to them is a matter of "cranking". I encourage them to trust in the technique and that if the technique is done accurately it will work all by itself. Its not often I can get them to accept the wisdom in this. Vocal complaints by a partner will get them to "cool-it", but that does not necessarily get them to focus on greater accuracy as much as just back off on using so much muscle. Things are just about as bad with weapons work. I have seen people use a sword like a cleaver rather than let the sword do the work. After a while all I can do is stand back and scratch my head.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Dec 6, 2004)

Hi Bruce:
I hear ya loud and clear.  It seems that folks rely more on strength because they are more familiar with that concept.  Problem is when you get a bit older (or when you have less strength than your opponent to begin with), the "muscle is best" idea lets you down.  

FWIW, I have had a number of folks ask me to do another parking lot session on this in Jackson this March, and I might just accomodate them to spread the word that you CAN do it with Yu Sool lol.  Heck, I might even make a short video on it and bring some for sale, it will help offset my expenses to travel there


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## glad2bhere (Dec 6, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

".....Heck, I might even make a short video on it and bring some for sale, it will help offset my expenses to travel there....." 

This is something that I have been advocating for a few years now. With my students I strongly push them to keep notebooks and sometimes have even been known to grade for the semester on the quality of their efforts. When I do seminars I bring handouts and usually refer students to published material.  Now that we have technology beyond handwriting it pays to tape lectures and even videotape presentations. For the life of me I can't figure why people are so damn reluctant to accord studying a martial art the same regard as when one studies anything else. Just about every organized sport has "playbooks" and I know golfers who buy just about anything published if it will improve their swing or putting. As far as charging, well, considering that both you and I often travel on our own dime I can't say I don't understand that reasoning. And if it starts at least a couple of people towards gathering a collection of research materials to improve their performance it will be a double-blessing, right?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## MDFJ (Dec 6, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Rudy:
> 
> ".....For example, larger people seemed to have more problems than smaller people, and I had several women do the break where some big men could not do it. I came to the conclusion that, if you have relied on your physical strength all your life, it may be hard to believe in a new concept like Yu Sool......"
> 
> ...



Hi Bruce

I don't know if this is of any help at all, but thought i would share it...

I have several students who are bigger or stronger, one in particular is seriously into pumping iron and is VERY strong...  One exercise I have used before, I used with him and it seemed to make the penny drop for them...

Standing facing opposite directions in a fig-4 armlock position (this is where your universal terminology would be useful..   )  

and basically I suggest that we have an arm-wrestle in this position, he of course won (nearly removing my arm from it's socket in the process..)  

I then explained that I would take one step, we went again, I stepped and I won...  Then I told him to copy my step, he did and we stalemated until, again his strength prevailed..

The I said I would use two steps, and again I won, even with him using one step and all the force he could muster...

we carried on with various fine details of the "technique" being added so I would win against his strength, until he had every part of the technique as good as me, at which point he again won... I told him his strength would only give him the upper hand IF he also had the best technique... and ever since he has been getting the job done with "technique" and not JUST his strength...

Sure you have tried many similar, and If it's no help, no worries, just thought i would share as it worked for me..

FWIW

My Best Regards

Marc


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## glad2bhere (Dec 6, 2004)

Dear Marc: 

Great Idea!  I use a similar approach but I think I like your execution better.  Thanks again! 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## MDFJ (Dec 6, 2004)

Very welcome Bruce, it worked for me & the student, hope it works for your guys too.

My Best Regards

Marc


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## howard (Dec 6, 2004)

marc, very interesting story.

i'd infer that your stepping is doing one or both of two things: unbalancing your stronger opponent, or shifting his grip somehow so that his arm and hand are no longer in a good position to apply the grab strongly.  that's classic hapkido, wouldn't you agree?

whenever i'm learning a new technique, i always step back and change something if it feels at all like i'm beginning to rely on brute force.  none of our techniques is designed to rely on force alone.  it has never failed yet that when i do step back and anlalyze, i've been able to find at least one flaw in my execution that, once corrected, allowed the technique to work without having to force it.


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## Disco (Dec 6, 2004)

Rudy, thanks for the reply. Let me pose another question, which has relevance to the issue of a persons size. Mainly focusing on hand size, have you encountered some / any limitations to performing certain wrist techniques, because the hand was to large to get into a/the preferred position? Bruce, feel free to jump in also.......

Mike


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## kwanjang (Dec 6, 2004)

Interesting stuff Marc, thanks for sharing it.  Hi Mike, I have not noticed anyone having a problem with that, but that does not mean it can't happen. I think I just have learned to adapt.  You are right Bruce.  I have always purchased learning material whenever it was available, because my writing is sooo sloppy I can't even read my own notes lol.


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## MDFJ (Dec 7, 2004)

Thank you Kwang-Jang Rudy.   :asian: 

Howard, I try to use images to help my students see how and why the technique works, there are many pictures to paint for the footwork to off-balance opponent or position them in such a way to weaken their strength in various position/techniques, but I also try to explain the power they generate within that technique..  I have found some relate well to car engines (the boys more than the girls) so with something as simple as a punch i break it down to it's components generating the power..

Muscle pushing arm forwards
Twisting of fist through target
Reaction hand driving shoulder back and therefore Striking one forward
Waist/hip twist
Knee drop / sinking action
Solid stance
etc, etc...

I explain that the individual components are like 1 cylinder each in a car,  and ask them would they want a car that only fires on 2 cylinders, or a 6.5 litre, straight-6 V8 double-turbo monster..!?

When they see how to use their body (ie Power), and how to affect the opponents body (ie balance) and they grasp the circle/water principles I find it easy to get them to coordinate their techniques fluidly and effectively.   

It feels great when you see the lights come on or the penny drop,   and it really makes a difference in their technique/performance..

I love finding new ways to explain things to students, If anyone has any great ones to share I would love to hear them...

My very Best Regards to all

Marc


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## glad2bhere (Dec 7, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

I have run into this in both my training and my teaching. On a yu sool level there are two things to consider. One, of course, is the pre-emptive strike (or kick). No sense in going into a lot of talk about that. The other is the various stepping or positioning aspects that Marc is talking about. To add yet a third perspective, the hapki-yu-sool approach incorporates as few as three and as many as seven initial vectors reportedly taught by Choi to identified students. I have a Korean text which only identifies three of these biomechanics though I believe Dojunim Kim teaches 7 to his students. That doesn't mean that some of these don't turn-up in the yu sool material of some teachers. My own teacher, GM Myung clearly demonstrates the application of one or two of these moves in his books without ever actually identifying them by name. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Dec 7, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Mike:
> 
> I have run into this in both my training and my teaching. On a yu sool level there are two things to consider. One, of course, is the pre-emptive strike (or kick). No sense in going into a lot of talk about that. The other is the various stepping or positioning aspects that Marc is talking about. To add yet a third perspective, the hapki-yu-sool approach incorporates as few as three and as many as seven initial vectors reportedly taught by Choi to identified students. I have a Korean text which only identifies three of these biomechanics though I believe Dojunim Kim teaches 7 to his students. That doesn't mean that some of these don't turn-up in the yu sool material of some teachers. My own teacher, GM Myung clearly demonstrates the application of one or two of these moves in his books without ever actually identifying them by name. FWIW.
> 
> ...


Bruce

Please be specific what 3 and or 7 vectors do you speak of.  

And for referance what book and page does Myung show the tech.?

Thanks


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## glad2bhere (Dec 7, 2004)

"......Standing facing opposite directions in a fig-4 armlock position (this is where your universal terminology would be useful.. ) ....." 

Funny you should pick this particular technique. I have been having a unique problem with finding a Korean name for it. My guess is a large part of this is because the same biomechanic can be accomplished two ways. 

One approach is the classic response to an over-hand "ice-pick" attack. Just about everyone does a high cross-block, collapses the elbox(simultaneously taking the balance) and levering the partner to the ground. The act of grabbing ones own forearm produces the "Figure-4" shape you mention. 

There is also the execution which uses the same dynamic but only catches the partner at the wrist and elbow. GM Myung predictably calls this a "wrist-Elbow Throw" and uses it more for a lateral or circling takedown. 

My first though would be to name both techniques the same as they share the same dynamics. However, a person watching the general execution would seem to see two very different techniques.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Dec 7, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

"......Please be specific what 3 and or 7 vectors do you speak of. 

And for referance what book and page does Myung show the tech.?...." 

Gee, I really would like to share that with you, but its a big secret and reserved only for the most elite practitioners and innermost circle of dedicated students!   

Seriously, though, if you have the "Gold Book" (ART OF MASTERS) and start with the very first technique in Chapter 7 (HOSHINSUL) the rising vector is roughly the first one done on page 94.  It is unseemly to correct my teacher, especially in light of a hapkiyusool rather than yu sool execution of this movement. Oddly enough, however, the smaller insert photo shows the proper hand orientation for correct execution of the Rising vector while the larger succession of pictures shows an incorrect orientation. Many of the other preliminary moves for the next techniques are also variations on these initial vectors though most often with incorrect orientation. Again, it is not courteous to comment on my teachers' execution, but I thought that citing a picture would be much more helpful than trying to describe each vector from scratch, ne?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Black Belt FC (Dec 9, 2004)

*OFF TOPIC SORRY ADM. *
*HAPKIDO SEMINAR APRIL 9TH SATURDAY 2005*
*For more information and application visit HAPKIDO.CN and click on schedule events.*


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## glad2bhere (Dec 9, 2004)

I think the idea of posting information like this on a single string cheats many people who are not Hapkido practitioners (IE TKD, TSD, JJ etc) out of being informed regarding the event. Certainly Hapkido people will be interested, but my guess is that the reason there is a specific place for events is so the widest possible dissemination independent of affiliation is possible. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shesulsa (Dec 9, 2004)

The seminar was also posted in the Advertising-Organization and Events Forum for all to see. However, it might be a good idea to post something like this in a separate thread (rather than an unrelated existing thread) in the future.

 We can have 2 or 3 cross-posts maximum.

  Thanks for paying attention, Bruce.


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