# Youth Black Belts



## Gorilla

I just got started on this forum and I am just a parent.  Albeit one who has invested a lot of time and $ in (WTF) TKD.  I think that most would agree that a Black Belt should not be granted before 10 years old.  Has anyone on this board ever seen a Black Belt under the age of 10 that deserved their Black Belt.  I can think of few.

This is the Criteria.

1.  They have to pass the adult test not a dumbed down test.
2.  The have to have the professional demeanor of a Black Belt.
3.  They must be able to train with adults.
4.  They must be able to assist in class.
5.  They must understand the responsibilities of a Black Belt.

I can count 3 kids that I know that met this standard and 1 was 7 1/2 years old.

I saw all three of them get promoted by KKW 9th degree.  He did not compromise his standards.  All 3 are currently still doing TKD and have been promoted to second degree.


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## terryl965

Well let me just say a few things here, first off WTF does not issue any Black Belts only the KKW does and if they are under 16 they recieve a poom belt. I can also add I have seen alot of adults that are not true BB at all. They are terrible at poomsae and do not even know there material. Which org are you affiliated with?


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## Gorilla

KKW and of course you are right they are poom belts


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## ATC

Terry has already stated that there are no BBs under 16 years of age. However due to the fact that they did pass the same promotion test that many of the adults have done, many schools do give them a physical BB to wear, regardless of the rank of Poom.

In Korea when you are a Poom you do not get a BB but rather a half red half black belt. This indicates that you have done all the physical and have a good understanding of the knowledge that goes with that as well. Poom rank still represents the fact that if the age of 15 you would be looked at as a BB therefore it is just a symbolic as a BB. Once you turn 15 the rank of Poom becomes Dan with no further testing so in essence there is no difference.

OK...with all that said, both my kids are Pooms and both are good as far as techniques are concerned. However they lack the basic human life experiences to do much else other than demonstrate the technical skills they have developed. They can however teach you exactly what they were taught without much care or thought towards the individual. Put a 5 year old in front of them and they will teach him as if he were 15 or 55. Put a special needs person in front of them and there is not much difference. They will also lack the patients that are needed with such diverse cases.

To sum up what I am saying is that yes they do deserve to display the fact that they can perform any technique and have the knowledge needed to understand when, why and how that techniques works. But they lack the life experience to be considered knowledgeable enough to fully be the head of anything.

So to answer your question...Yes and No. Sorry but this is not a cut and dry answer.


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## msmitht

I agree with Terry and atc.
You can teach them everything that you can teach an adult but they do not have the same mentality. The ability to teach is lost on many adults as well as children. Most children do not have the patience for teaching (I can think of 2 that do). Does this mean that they do not deserve poom/black? yes and no. If they are serious about training, know the techniques and can do them well...then yes. If they know the techniques but can not perform and have a poor attitude...then no.
Sorry to go both ways on this but the answer is not/can not be cut and dry. Every student is different.


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## NPTKD

Gorilla said:


> I just got started on this forum and I am just a parent. Albeit one who has invested a lot of time and $ in (WTF) TKD. I think that most would agree that a Black Belt should not be granted before 10 years old. Has anyone on this board ever seen a Black Belt under the age of 10 that deserved their Black Belt. I can think of few.
> 
> This is the Criteria.
> 
> 1. They have to pass the adult test not a dumbed down test.
> 2. The have to have the professional demeanor of a Black Belt.
> 3. They must be able to train with adults.
> 4. They must be able to assist in class.
> 5. They must understand the responsibilities of a Black Belt.
> 
> I can count 3 kids that I know that met this standard and 1 was 7 1/2 years old.
> 
> I saw all three of them get promoted by KKW 9th degree. He did not compromise his standards. All 3 are currently still doing TKD and have been promoted to second degree.


 
Do you practice any Martial art? I hear this kind of stuff alot from parents who don't. 

My answers to above

1. The KKW requires adults & children to perform the same poomsaes. As for self defense, they are doing the same techniqes as adults but due to bodly delevopment the power level with children isn't the same. The breaking part is also the same standards, but the baord sizes are different. The power break is tile for children and brick for adults. They all write an essay and are held to the same standards for the physical fitness testing (running,push up, etc...) 

2. They have to have the professional demeanor of a Black Belt. Do you expect children to act the same as adults? I've seen adults that don't act like adults. I seen BB that I wouldn't want my children to act like.

3. Why do they have to train with adults? Most schools, mine included we don't allow children and adults to train together. Why!!! For what benifit?

4. Why... that is the instructor job. Not everyone can do it, adults included. You would understand if you were out on the mat. It is a different world when your out there infront of everyone and parents are watching you. There is alot of pressure.

5. They would not have been able to test if they didn't.


This is why a poom belt or poom status is giving. I have children that are better BB the some adults, by the mental side of beening a black belt isn't there yet because of there age. I as far as the three that met those standards ( are those your standards on what YOU think a BB should be) I am sure there instructor practiced ridged flexability with them also. at one time or another.


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## TKD_Father

My son tested this past Saturday for his 1st Dan. He's 9 years old and has been attending class for 3 years. I guarantee he's deserving of his 1st Dan.

Since beginning TKD he's been in about 15 competitions and won first place in forms each time. He's gotten one third place in sparring and all others were first.

I'm not sure how you came up with your 5 requirements for a Black Belt, but I know my son is incredibly talented at TKD and exceeds every one.


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## terryl965

TKD Father not trying to rain on the parade but if your son is 9, he would be a poom and not a Dan. Pooms are junior BB, there is a difference between adult and childern.

I am sure your son has some talent mine too but three years is a little fast except he is training 6 days a week for two hours a day. I am an instructor and my sons took 8 year training everyday  for two hours before I even thought about them being a poom or junior BB.

What tournament has your son won, the Usat Junior Olympics or A.A.U. National anything big or just local tournaments?Not trying to be a hard *** about this but so many parent believe three year is forever.Let say he worksout for 3 day a week for one hour, that really equals about 30  minute of actual training time. So 1.5 hours times 3 equals 4.5 x 150 weeks that equals 675 hours of training time divided by 40 equals about 17 weeks on a job less than five months and most people are just getting to fully understanding there position. Like I said not trying to defend anybody but would you make someone the boss of a company if they had less than five months of training time. In my opinion it should take between 5-8 years for a child to reach BB, my opinion remember Teenager and adult have the advantage of having some common sense while trraining and are able to adapt to changes in a SD stituation, childern are just that a child. 

Does your child only do Olympic so they are just learning the sport and if so than I can see having a BB that quick, otherwise he really needs more time to be seasoned for real life.

I hope nobody is offended and understand the concern of this post.


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## Gorilla

This why I posted this thread.  I hear allot on BBS that under 10 year old Black Belts are not deserving. I think the the real answer is some are and some are not but the potential for younger BB to earn that rank is possible no matter what you call them(Poom or Dan).  

The reason some kids train with adults is because the youth level training is not enough.

The criteria that i posted is to high.  That why I posted it!!! To get the discussion going

What is the correct criteria for a (Poom Belt or Black Belt) if you are going to give them to 10 year olds and not bring down the standards for Black Belts of TKD in general


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## NPTKD

If your not a higher Dan BB then you have no right to make judgements on who should be a BB.

Just my opion,thats why there is a waiting room with newspapers and thing to keep you busy!


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## Gorilla

NPTKD that why I would never be waiting in your waiting room just my opinion.

That said just trying to get a conversation going!!! Maybe I could learn something  from the higher black belts who humble enough to talk  to a parent.

If I came across as judgmental I am sorry not my intention.

NPTKD you certainly judged me very quickly.


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## dancingalone

NPTKD said:


> If your not a higher Dan BB then you have no right to make judgements on who should be a BB.
> 
> Just my opion,thats why there is a waiting room with newspapers and thing to keep you busy!



I'm not sure that's a valid proposition.  High dan belts created the situation we have today in the US where we see nonsense like 6 year old second dans.

This is an frequent discussion on MT and I have no real answer that would be applicable to everyone, but it seems like the phrase "I know it when I see it" would apply with regard to child black belts.  A black belt should look the part with clean, strong technique with a reasonable expectation of being able to apply their skills on the street against a determined attacker.  For most children, the latter part just can't be true no matter how nice a side kick they can throw in the dojang.

Just my opinion.


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## TKD_Father

terryl965 said:


> TKD Father not trying to rain on the parade but if your son is 9, he would be a poom and not a Dan. Pooms are junior BB, there is a difference between adult and childern.



In whose eyes? Kukkiwon recognizes under 15 as a Poom, at his school he is a 1st Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. Not sure what the schools affiliation will put on his paperwork though. Have to wait a bit and see.



terryl965 said:


> I am sure your son has some talent mine too but three years is a little fast except he is training 6 days a week for two hours a day. I am an instructor and my sons took 8 year training everyday  for two hours before I even thought about them being a poom or junior BB.



No he doesn't train 6 days x 2 hours per week. How many black belts reading this now do that? Every child progresses at different rates. Prior to a state tournament last year he was doing 5 days x 4 hours which included 2 hours of conditioning and 2 hours of sparring drills. He won the tourny.



terryl965 said:


> What tournament has your son won, the Usat Junior Olympics or A.A.U. National anything big or just local tournaments?



State Open, local tournaments. *Added: What difference does it make? Many Black Belts don't compete at all. Are you saying you have to compete to become a Black Belt?



terryl965 said:


> Not trying to be a hard *** about this



Really?

... some math and stuff about a company boss comparison which have absolutely no bearing removed...



terryl965 said:


> Does your child only do Olympic so they are just learning the sport and if so than I can see having a BB that quick, otherwise he really needs more time to be seasoned for real life.



He does Olympic style sparring and point sparring, basically whatever they offer at any tournament he can get in. He also enters ALL forms competitions, and as I said earlier, he has won them all.



terryl965 said:


> I hope nobody is offended and understand the concern of this post.



Trust me, I'm my son's worst critic. He has a work ethic that other's should aspire to attain. He'll finish class, get a drink and wipe off the sweat, then ask me if he can run "lines" in the Dojang. I kinda understand your concerns, and I've seen kids promoted who absolutely did not deserve the belt they are wearing, but I can say, without the "father" influence, that my son isn't one of those. EVERYONE at his school comment on just how good he is, and it's not just them. At the tournaments he attends Grand Master's remark about how well he performs.

Yes - some kids should wait to get 1st Degree (Poom, Dan or whatever you want to call it), and some kids don't have to wait.


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## Nomad

I'm a karateka, not TKDist, so will defer to Terry and ATC on specific requirements for their organization.  

I am also a shodan-level black belt in my club who happens to be the father of a talented 10 year old karate student who has been taking classes and winning tournaments for 4 years (6 if you count a mini-ninja program that teaches some of the skills through storytelling... I don't).

In spite of her physical talent (her kicks are better than mine, for instance), she is in *absolutely no way ready* for a black belt (physically, mentally, or emotionally), and she knows this as much as anyone else.  Some of her friends have already received black belts in other styles; I'd happily put her up against any of them in kata and sparring and expect that she'd kick their butts pretty easily.  

If and when she does get her black belt (possibly around 16-17 if she pushes and trains hard for the next several years), it will be because she values the training and the teachings that have come along the way, not because of belt chasing.  Hopefully this type of progression leads to less a feeling of "graduation" and more of "one more step on the path" of martial arts.


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## mwd0818

I'm not involved in TKD, but just have to share this:http://www.kempotraining.com/wordpress/2009/07/24/what-is-a-black-belt/

*Rank only means something within the confines of the organization that bestows it.

*What is a Black Belt?

If your organization, group, affiliation, etc., has rules about Black Belt, Poom, Junior BB, etc., that's fine.  It is not for another person from another organization to assign it value.


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## dancingalone

mwd0818 said:


> I'm not involved in TKD, but just have to share this:
> 
> *Rank only means something within the confines of the organization that bestows it.
> 
> *What is a Black Belt?
> 
> If your organization, group, affiliation, etc., has rules about Black Belt, Poom, Junior BB, etc., that's fine.  It is not for another person from another organization to assign it value.



You are right and wrong at the same time.  What about the layman's idea of what a black belt should be?  Laymen would generally think that a black belt is some measure of fighting ability and I'm inclined to agree.


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## Nomad

TKD_Father said:


> Trust me, I'm my son's worst critic. He has a work ethic that other's should aspire to attain. He'll finish class, get a drink and wipe off the sweat, then ask me if he can run "lines" in the Dojang. I kinda understand your concerns, and I've seen kids promoted who absolutely did not deserve the belt they are wearing, but I can say, without the "father" influence, that my son isn't one of those. EVERYONE at his school comment on just how good he is, and it's not just them. At the tournaments he attends Grand Master's remark about how well he performs.



Congratulations.  Assuming that you're being forthright here, then you have a natural on your hands with the potential to go far and do very well indeed in martial arts.  

That said, with only 3 years training, I wouldn't wrap a black belt around his waist.  But my standards and expectations may be different than yours and your son's instructor.



TKD_Father said:


> Yes - some kids should wait to get 1st Degree (Poom, Dan or whatever you want to call it), and some kids don't have to wait.



Quite simply, we disagree on this.  I don't think having to wait for something has ever hurt someone, although our current culture of immediate consumption may argue otherwise.  I think more time spent at intermediate belts, even for a very talented individual, can give more depth and appreciation for the art itself.  Learning as a brown belt _is_ different from learning as a black belt, and learning about yourself and your own ego can be a huge part of the journey.


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## Jphtkd

I wish I had a dollar for every parent who thought their child deserved a black belt... and just to add some fuel to the fire...

Tournament wins do not = good black belts


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## mwd0818

dancingalone said:


> You are right and wrong at the same time.  What about the layman's idea of what a black belt should be?  Laymen would generally think that a black belt is some measure of fighting ability and I'm inclined to agree.



True, and the popular culture that surrounds us does have their own ideas.  Unfortunately, if true fighting ability were the measure of a Black Belt, there would be a lot of ranks being rescinded.

There is definitely a _should_ but it ultimately comes back to the organization's purpose and definition.  Black Belt is defined by the culture that awards it, and since each school and organization and style has their own culture, it is difficult at best to reach a conclusion.  As evidenced here even within the confines of a single style (TKD) there is a lot of confusion and disagreement.  Add in the hundreds of other arts, and you have Black Belts being awarded in 12 months in one TKD school, and another Black Belt being awarded in BJJ in 12 years.  It's just a mark on a long journey, and it means as much, or as little, as people want to make of it.


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## ATC

TKD_Father said:


> I know my son is incredibly talented at TKD and exceeds every one.


You should really think about changing the last two words to "many" ;-)


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## TKD_Father

TKD_Father said:


> I know my son is incredibly talented at TKD and exceeds every one.





ATC said:


> You should really think about changing the last two words to "many" ;-)



Ok, maybe your right 

No one can say what it takes to be a Black Belt except the people who are charged with presenting it to the individual. Each school is different.

A Grand Master has determined that my son is worthy to wear the belt of a 1st Degree. He has submitted the paperwork to have this honor recognized by the organization the school is a part of. He will be submitting my son's Kukkiwon application as well.


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## NPTKD

Gorilla said:


> NPTKD that why I would never be waiting in your waiting room just my opinion.
> 
> That said just trying to get a conversation going!!! Maybe I could learn something from the higher black belts who humble enough to talk to a parent.
> 
> If I came across as judgmental I am sorry not my intention.
> 
> NPTKD you certainly judged me very quickly.


 
My point is, is that you started this threat because you have been sitting in some poor guy's waiting room thinking to yourself that " that kid doesn't deserve that black belt" or " my kid is better then that" or something along that line. You probably aren't happy with something with your childs school. So my opion stand. You are in no position to make the call. These kids spend coutless hours working toward s goal, does that not count for something? Not to say that if you show up you get the rank, but come on!


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## NPTKD

dancingalone said:


> I'm not sure that's a valid proposition. High dan belts created the situation we have today in the US where we see nonsense like 6 year old second dans.
> 
> This is an frequent discussion on MT and I have no real answer that would be applicable to everyone, but it seems like the phrase "I know it when I see it" would apply with regard to child black belts. A black belt should look the part with clean, strong technique with a reasonable expectation of being able to apply their skills on the street against a determined attacker. For most children, the latter part just can't be true no matter how nice a side kick they can throw in the dojang.
> 
> Just my opinion.


 Thats my point.... Just by sitting in a waiting area 3 days a week for a couple of months doesn't give that person the ability to make that decision. You know I have been to tournament where there wasn't enough certified refs so they would use parents! If you okay with that then... And I have also been to Poomsae seminars with international referees that couldn't even do the poomsaes that they are judging others on... Unless you do it and do it right yourself then....... get my point.


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## NPTKD

TKD_Father said:


> My son tested this past Saturday for his 1st Dan. He's 9 years old and has been attending class for 3 years. I guarantee he's deserving of his 1st Dan.
> 
> Since beginning TKD he's been in about 15 competitions and won first place in forms each time. He's gotten one third place in sparring and all others were first.
> 
> I'm not sure how you came up with your 5 requirements for a Black Belt, but I know my son is incredibly talented at TKD and exceeds every one.


 
Does your son need a job?


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## TKD_Father

NPTKD said:


> And I have also been to Poomsae seminars with international referees that couldn't even do the poomsaes that they are judging others on... Unless you do it and do it right yourself then....... get my point.



I'm not sure I totally agree. Someone who knows stances, punches, blocks and movements would be able to judge someone else's abilities to do those things, even if they didn't know the Poomse.

Truly, it's not about doing the correct movements as much as it is about doing the movements correctly.


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## TKD_Father

NPTKD said:


> Does your son need a job?



LOL , hiring?

Since there aren't any colleges that offer TKD scholarships, I'm hoping he will be able to get a job teaching evenings to support his schooling. We have about 9 years to get him ready though...


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## dancingalone

NPTKD said:


> Thats my point.... Just by sitting in a waiting area 3 days a week for a couple of months doesn't give that person the ability to make that decision. You know I have been to tournament where there wasn't enough certified refs so they would use parents! If you okay with that then... And I have also been to Poomsae seminars with international referees that couldn't even do the poomsaes that they are judging others on... Unless you do it and do it right yourself then....... get my point.



Admittedly I'm using a low bar, but I think even a non-martial artist can tell if someone has the goods or not.  You know what I'm talking about.  We've all seen those youtube videos of red belts and black belts who probably should go back to square 1 and start all over again.


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## mwd0818

TKD_Father said:


> A Grand Master has determined that my son is worthy to wear the belt of a 1st Degree. He has submitted the paperwork to have this honor recognized by the organization the school is a part of. He will be submitting my son's Kukkiwon application as well.



Congratulations then.


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## ATC

TKD_Father said:


> Since there aren't any colleges that offer TKD scholarships...


There are many. Not full scholarships, but they do offer something.


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## TKD_Father

ATC said:


> There are many. Not full scholarships, but they do offer something.



Now stop teasing. I checked into this last year and was told there weren't any.

Would you have a reference handy?


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## NPTKD

:soapbox:


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## miguksaram

NPTKD said:


> These kids spend coutless hours working toward s goal, does that not count for something? Not to say that if you show up you get the rank, but come on!


 
Unfortunatlely that is the point.  Many of these kids just show up.  They "know" their curriculum but look like crap doing it because they rush through it or don't take time to comprehend what they are doing.  The instructors tend to justify giving the belt away with differernt execuses; "He/she is better than when they first started.", "The black belt is actually the beginning, so they will now learn to refine their techniques.", trust me I've heard them all.

The hours are not countless.  I'd say, the vast majority spend a total of 192-288 hours for their black belt (based on 1 hour classes 2-3 times a week for 2 years).  Yes, you will get the odd man/woman out who will put in more time or who is just naturally talented and can pick up and comprehend what they are doing.  However, they are few and far between.


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## miguksaram

ATC said:


> There are many. Not full scholarships, but they do offer something.


Let me know which ones.  I'll switch my kid back to TKD. ha.ha.ha.


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## terryl965

*In whose eyes? Kukkiwon recognizes under 15 as a Poom, at his school he is a 1st Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. Not sure what the schools affiliation will put on his paperwork though. Have to wait a bit and see.*
Ok but you said they are sending away for his KKW certificate so he is not a 1st Dan, he will be a poom just like all others nomatter what your GM says.

*No he doesn't train 6 days x 2 hours per week. How many black belts reading this now do that? Every child progresses at different rates. Prior to a state tournament last year he was doing 5 days x 4 hours which included 2 hours of conditioning and 2 hours of sparring drills. He won the tourny.*
I do not know any instructor that would train an eight year old 5 days a week for four hours, there bodys will break down. I know alot of the top fighters in the US and they have made the National Teams, so I find this to be not an accurate statement.

*State Open, local tournaments. *Added: What difference does it make? Many Black Belts don't compete at all. Are you saying you have to compete to become a Black Belt?*
Because if he is not doing the bigger tournaments he is only playing and not competing, if he was the next prodical son of TKD his GM would have him at AAU National or the USAT Juniors and getting him ready for the big jump into the 14-17 age range when he is 12. A local state run tournament with a couple of hundred people means nothing to the bigger tournament out there.

*Really?* Yes was just making commits about your position and what it really takes to be on top, the people that know me know I am never an *** about things and I would hate for you to think that way.

*... some math and stuff about a company boss comparison which have absolutely no bearing removed...*

Iy does if you son is teaching adult Self Defense application because there is not one instructor that would put that burdin on any child that was any good. You see so many people think that being able to throw a kick or a punch equals a true Black Belt, let me ask you this question on your poomsae does your son understand the many application to each said form and his he learning different variation of application. Does he understand what the law in your area say you can and cannot do within a self defense stituation? Does he know the difference and all variation of evey single kick? Does he understand how the nervous system and bone structure of the human body really work for a SD type stituation? These are the things that seperate a true BB and all others and there is not a child alive that does at the age of 9-12 so that is why we have junior BB to recognized time in but to know the student has so much more to learn.

*He does Olympic style sparring and point sparring, basically whatever they offer at any tournament he can get in. He also enters ALL forms competitions, and as I said earlier, he has won them all.*
But yet he is not on the curcuit for any big tournament. What org. is your school with? What was the name of the school? Just curious if the talent is there why is he not at the US Open in Florida or USAT or AAU National? These are question that should be ask of the instructor why just local small tournaments?

*Trust me, I'm my son's worst critic. He has a work ethic that other's should aspire to attain. He'll finish class, get a drink and wipe off the sweat, then ask me if he can run "lines" in the Dojang. I kinda understand your concerns, and I've seen kids promoted who absolutely did not deserve the belt they are wearing, but I can say, without the "father" influence, that my son isn't one of those. EVERYONE at his school comment on just how good he is, and it's not just them. At the tournaments **he attends Grand Master's remark about how well he performs.Yes - some kids should wait to get 1st Degree (Poom, Dan or whatever you want to call it), and some kids don't have to wait.* 
 
I am glad you are his worst critic, I am that way with my three, see I have been in Martial Arts for forty years and my father tought in the military for 38 years so for me too say three years is fast, I know a few things. My own three stayed at mid belt that is green stripe though Blue belt for two years learning everything and all my boys have won on the International and National levels including the USAT, AAU and the ISKA and the AOK. We have produce dmany National State Local and International Champions in both Olympic, Point and continuos point sparring.

To finish this up all I am saying is amke sure you keep him training and learning and look for the bigger tournaments to get him in the right eyes so he can grow with full potential in the sport side if that is your goal and you will need the AAU and the uSAT for that.


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## NPTKD

miguksaram said:


> Unfortunatlely that is the point. Many of these kids just show up. They "know" their curriculum but look like crap doing it because they rush through it or don't take time to comprehend what they are doing. The instructors tend to justify giving the belt away with differernt execuses; "He/she is better than when they first started.", "The black belt is actually the beginning, so they will now learn to refine their techniques.", trust me I've heard them all.
> 
> The hours are not countless. I'd say, the vast majority spend a total of 192-288 hours for their black belt (based on 1 hour classes 2-3 times a week for 2 years). Yes, you will get the odd man/woman out who will put in more time or who is just naturally talented and can pick up and comprehend what they are doing. However, they are few and far between.


 no..  right ... your wrong! But I still love ya.


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## terryl965

TKD_Father said:


> I'm not sure I totally agree. Someone who knows stances, punches, blocks and movements would be able to judge someone else's abilities to do those things, even if they didn't know the Poomse.
> 
> Truly, it's not about doing the correct movements as much as it is about doing the movements correctly.


 

See that is the problem so many referees do not even practice the art but yet they judge. See in the art you have to understand each movement and why it is important in the poomsae and it is not about stances and power but pocession and knowledge we are not talking about a dance rehersal but application and the meaning of them.


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## miguksaram

Jphtkd said:


> I wish I had a dollar for every parent who thought their child deserved a black belt... and just to add some fuel to the fire...
> 
> Tournament wins do not = good black belts


 
My oldest son competes as a black belt on the open circuit and has done so for the past two years, but was only officially ranked as a purple belt in our school when he started competing at that level.  In both years he was rank #1 in the region and ranked #11 nationally.  He earned brown belt last year and is finally going for his Jr. BB this August after almost 6 years in our present school and 3 years at the former TKD school we went to.

Tournament wins only equal good athletes and nothing else. It is what they do in the school that counts towards being a good black belt.


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## terryl965

miguksaram said:


> My oldest son competes as a black belt on the open circuit and has done so for the past two years, but was only officially ranked as a purple belt in our school when he started competing at that level. In both years he was rank #1 in the region and ranked #11 nationally. He earned brown belt last year and is finally going for his Jr. BB this August after almost 6 years in our present school and 3 years at the former TKD school we went to.
> 
> Tournament wins only equal good athletes and nothing else. It is what they do in the school that counts towards being a good black belt.


 
So your sons like mine had about eight years of training before BB. I am so glad to hear this.


----------



## miguksaram

terryl965 said:


> So your sons like mine had about eight years of training before BB. I am so glad to hear this.


 
Thanks.   If it were up to him he would remain a brown belt.  The Jr. BB test is killer about 2-3 hours. ha.ha.ha.ha  Plus he will have to retest for his adult black belt when he turns 16 and that one is 4-6 hours.  

In the TKD school, he was progressing too quickly.  He was good but I didn't feel he should have been at the level he was promoted to.  I wanted to hold him back but the GM insisted on it.  (Note:  I was my son's instructor not a sideline parent in the waiting room ).  It was that mixed with some other personal reasons that we left the school and was blessed to walk into to Sharkey's Karate.  He was pissed at first becuase he knew he was about 6 months out from black belt at the old school.  However, he soon saw the differences between the two and realized that it was for the better to move on from where we were.


----------



## TKD_Father

*terryl965* - You've put a lot of effort into discrediting my son's credentials.

I'll just say this. He's incredible. 

You seem to have a clear understanding of what a Black Belt means to you. That can be respected. But that doesn't mean your right. It's what YOU require, not everyone.

My son met the criteria set forth by the original poster, which is what I was replying to.

What rank are you in Tae Kwon Do? I only ask because it was a well respected 9th (yes, Kukkiwon certified) that determined the rank of my son, and I'd like to know your knowledge of TKD to make these judgments.

Actually after reading through some of your last post, I'm not entirely liking the tone your setting.



> he will be a poom just like all others nomatter what your GM says


Wow, strike a nerve? Ok, Ok, he's a Poom... I'll let ya know what his organization certificate says when we get it.




> there bodys will break down. I know alot of the top fighters in the US and they have made the National Teams, so I find this to be not an accurate statement.



I'm not a slave driver, the 5 day 4 hour workouts were split into 2 hour segments and took place for 3 weeks prior to the tournament. And my son wanted to train more then he did.



> I am never an *** about things and I would hate for you to think that way.




Too late.

As to why he hasn't done more national tournaments... He's only 9! He'll continue to do local and state tournaments over the next couple of years, then compete in some regional events and keep progressing. There's no point in pushing him now.

Also - it's really no business of anyones, but another reason for not entering some of these other tourny's is that his school's GM is not a believer in TKD as a sport. His school used to be very competitive but he saw the whole process becoming very political. He went back to a more traditional teaching. He actually doesn't approve of "outside" competitions. This is a serious issue for us, because we know how good he is and what he's capable of. It could come down to changing schools, though we're hoping it doesn't get that far... if might have to.


----------



## NPTKD

:BSmeter:

You know, I watch alot of T.V. and  have sat thru a lot of movie. With that said. I never thought that I could disarm a bomb,become a spy,Fly, conduct an operation on a person, become a jedi or a super hero. But if I sat in enough dojangs judging kids.... Well than maybe just maybe... who knows! You are all BB in my eyes.


----------



## ATC

NPTKD said:


> :BSmeter:


Hey Mr.!!! Your meter is broken...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.

Funny!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> This why I posted this thread. I hear allot on BBS that under 10 year old Black Belts are not deserving. I think the the real answer is some are and some are not but the potential for younger BB to earn that rank is possible no matter what you call them(Poom or Dan).


It is not a quesiton of deserving.  If a ten year old meets the criteria set forth by his or her school, then he or she is deserving by the standards of *that particular school*.  A poom rank student technically should wear a poom belt and a poom dobok: a half black/half red belt and a dobok with half red/half black colar.  Many schools choose to put them in black belts.  That is a school decision.

I draw a distinction between the rank and the belt color.  If you are a poom rank, you are not a yudanja.  If you are a dan rank holder, then you are.  What color belt and dobok the school permits is between you and that school.



Gorilla said:


> The reason some kids train with adults is because the youth level training is not enough.


Some kids mix well in an adult class, some do not.  It also depends on the nature of the class.



Gorilla said:


> The criteria that i posted is to high. That why I posted it!!! To get the discussion going


Actually it is not too high.  Personally, that is what I feel the blackbelt criteria should be.  But different teachers and schools have different philosophies from my own.  

I do not penalize the child for earning a black belt in a school.  I would never tell a kid that he or she is not deserving just because they are a kid.  

I do think that the instructor is doing them a disservice and look down on the practice.  But that is a different story.



Gorilla said:


> What is the correct criteria for a (Poom Belt or Black Belt) if you are going to give them to 10 year olds and not bring down the standards for Black Belts of TKD in general


Poom requirements are essentially the same as adult requirements, but the kids do not get out and spar against an adult going full boar; they spar against other kids and break thinner boards.

The poom signifies that the child has learned the kyu grade material but does not have the maturity, both physical and/or mental, to take on a dan rank.  No shame in that; they are kids and are not done maturing.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

_*terryl965*_* - You've put a lot of effort into discrediting my son's credentials*

I do not believe I have done that and if you believe that I have than I am truely sorry.:asian:

*Wow, strike a nerve? Ok, Ok, he's a Poom... I'll let ya know what his organization certificate says when we get it.*

Did not strike a nerve just stating the facts, you said he was getting a KKW certificate and that will read poom not Dan, sorry if I was trying to educate.

*What rank are you in Tae Kwon Do? I only ask because it was a well respected 9th (yes, Kukkiwon certified) that determined the rank of my son, and I'd like to know your knowledge of TKD to make these judgments.*

I am currently a 5th, this also includes the 15 years I decided not to test for my own reason. I have been in Martial arts since the age of birth started back in 1964 and have been going since so I believe I have some time in as well. I am not saying your child did not deserve his rank just that the rank is a poom and if your instructor is a highly 9th Dan KKW than he knows this a s well.





*I'm not a slave driver, the 5 day 4 hour workouts were split into 2 hour segments and took place for 3 weeks prior to the tournament. And my son wanted to train more then he did.*

You did not say this in the previous post  and if you would have I understand training double time before a tournament we all do. You made it sound like he was doing this all the time. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

*Too late.*

Well I gues I am sorry you feel that way, maybe one day we can have a beer and laugh about this. One thing the Martial Art has tought me ove rthe years we can dis-agree and still have a common bound the Art.


*As to why he hasn't done more national tournaments... He's only 9! He'll continue to do local and state tournaments over the next couple of years, then compete in some regional events and keep progressing. There's no point in pushing him now.*

You are right it is your decission and not mine just saying with all that talent he maybe able to make a Natioanal Team and even the Olympics one day and the one thing that helps is knowing when and how to play the political game on the circuit for this to happen, especially know with the way teams are being picked.


*Also - it's really no business of anyones, but another reason for not entering some of these other tourny's is that his school's GM is not a believer in TKD as a sport. His school used to be very competitive but he saw the whole process becoming very political. He went back to a more traditional teaching. He actually doesn't approve of "outside" competitions. This is a serious issue for us, because we know how good he is and what he's capable of. It could come down to changing schools, though we're hoping it doesn't get that far... if might have to.*

I can appreciate this I too sometimes get pissed off about the whole tournament issue, so I can feel your instructor pain. I am also sorry to hear you maybe changing school, sinc eloyalty is a big part of TKD. Your son has gotten so far with his current Instructor it maybe a shame to loose that bond that has been formed already. I hope the best and hope you can stay with the current teacher for as long as possible.:asian:


----------



## TKD_Father

I'm done.

I see your a 4th Dan *terryl965 *congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.

Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.

I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.

Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.


----------



## dancingalone

NPTKD said:


> :BSmeter:
> 
> You know, I watch alot of T.V. and  have sat thru a lot of movie. With that said. I never thought that I could disarm a bomb,become a spy,Fly, conduct an operation on a person, become a jedi or a super hero. But if I sat in enough dojangs judging kids.... Well than maybe just maybe... who knows! You are all BB in my eyes.



Well, that analogy is off the wall.  I don't think anyone said you could learn how to be James Bond or Superman from watching tv.  I certainly didn't.  What I do believe is that even a non-martial artist can look at a person's TKD technique and tell whether it is good or not even without training.  Things like fluidity, snap, speed, and power are universal.  You don't have to be a grandmaster to recognize those characteristics.  Granted, it would be tough for a layman to compare two outstanding TKDists and rank them 1 and 2, but that's not the scenario I describe.  I argue that a layperson can readily recognize "black belt" technique along the lines of "I know it when I see it".


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> Wow, strike a nerve? Ok, Ok, he's a Poom... I'll let ya know what his organization certificate says when we get it.


Your son earned a black belt, so congrats!

As to what ages are awarded a Kukkiwon poom or a dan, the Kukkwon has a chart and accompanying regulations which can be viewed here: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01

First poom is a worthy accomplishment.  Poom ranks convert to dan ranks upon the student turning fifteen and paperwork being filed by a fourth dan or higher instructor.  No retest is required at that point.  

Students can advance up to a fourth poom, though only up to third convert to dan before eighteen, while fourth poom must be eighteen or older to convert.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

TKD_Father said:


> I'm done.
> 
> I see your a 4th Dan *terryl965 *congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.
> 
> Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.
> 
> I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.
> 
> Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.


 

Well I am a 5th and my web master will get it updated, see rank means nothing to me really. Knowledge means more, as far as me being dis-respectful when? I have just pointed out a few things and you are being judgemental about the converstation. I have in no way been judgemental about your sone if anything I am giving you some good advice about taking your son to the next level. The forum is one of the best for decusssion and I thought that is what we was doing? I am sorry if you fell you was being judge by me, not the case but we all must read what we want from a message board, I hope your son continues to grow and do well both on the matt and in life. I wish you the best to. As far a a 9th degree goes I give respect to all but that does not mean I have to agree with all, there is a a difference and we live in a country that allows us o be this way.:asian:


----------



## ATC

TKD_Father said:


> I'm done.
> 
> I see your a 4th Dan *terryl965 *congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.
> 
> Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.
> 
> I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.
> 
> Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.


Hummm...I only see everyone debating what they feel, it just happened that you put your son out there as a reference. You stated that he got his BB after 3 years and then stated that he was one of the best if not the best.

I do not think Terry was attacking you or your son personally but used your references to make his counter points. I can see how that may come across as an attack if you do not know the context of the points being made.

As for you son I am sure he is very good. But with millions of kids across this land doing the same thing I am sure that there are many just as good and some better.

I think my son and daughter are the greatest things since sliced bread too, and both have won at the national level. But both have also lost. You can only truly get better after losing. Your son will see that one day.

I know you are proud of your son, as we all are proud of our own...hell look at my signature. But maybe you could tone down the DAD pride just a little and you would not feel as you do now and neither would Terry. I am sure he meant no disrespect at all.


----------



## terryl965

I am absolutely sorry if you feel this way. I do not mean to say anything about another child. I was just telling and voice my opinion.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

To be fair, this tends to be a *very* polarizing subject.  The competing points of veiw are parental pride, old timers trying to hold up the standards, and those who feel that everyone should have a shot at the belt, regardless of age or physical capability. 

Not saying that any one POV is right or wrong.  I think that the best way to view it is to accept that outside of one's own school, rank is fairly meaningless.  Even within the same organization, different schools promote for different reasons.

Some will only promote champions.  Some only promote based on one's ability to defend themselves.  Some promote based on hard work and personal growth.  None are inherently wrong, but each represents a different kind of accomplishment.

Regarding Terry, I think that I can safely say that he is a strong proponent of kids in taekwondo and would not (and is not) questioning any child's qualifications for their rank or belt.

That said, let us all keep in mind that as many of us have fairly strong opinions on the subject, we need to make sure to post to what is actually being said and double check our own posts before clicking submit.  

That is directed to everyone, by the way, so if you feel singled out, you are not.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

Sure Daniel nobody is being pointed too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, one thing you said was we should reread our post. You are right it is hard to fully say on paper what one truely could say in person. I train alot of childern and adults and believe me I have more childern than adult that deserve the rank. I wish we could all see the same views but that would be boring. Lets get back to the original thread.


I believe that each school has a set or criteria they use and that is what the difference maybe. In school like high school teacher have a guidline that musst be followed but they can add certain things inside the classroom. I know I do when teaching Math to the kids. Without the young childern of today martial arts would suffer dearly we need them, no doubt about it.


----------



## Twin Fist

9 years old?

he isnt a Black Belt, in any way shape or form.

And if your school gave him a Dan rank at 9? well, i got nothing good to say about them.

I wont even TAKE students under 8. and NO ONE is getting a BB from me in less than 3 years, unless they had extensive prior training. Like Black Belt level prior training. A CHILD getting a BB in 3 years?

congrats, you belong to a belt factory


----------



## Twin Fist

TKD_Father said:


> I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.



hey, just because you have an opinion doesnt mean it will be agreed with or respected.

some things are just wrong, like 9 year old BB's


----------



## Gorilla

NPTKD said:


> My point is, is that you started this threat because you have been sitting in some poor guy's waiting room thinking to yourself that " that kid doesn't deserve that black belt" or " my kid is better then that" or something along that line. You probably aren't happy with something with your childs school. So my opion stand. You are in no position to make the call. These kids spend coutless hours working toward s goal, does that not count for something? Not to say that if you show up you get the rank, but come on!



NPTKD,

First, I do not sit in a waiting room at a Dojang.  My son and daughter are members of a competition team in Las Vegas.  The Coach/Master is a very good friend of mine and we travel all over the country together.  Our team has 2 AAU National Team Members 1 is my daughter she is a JR and 1 USAT National (B) Team member he lost to Mark Lopez at the most recent National Team Trials.  We also had 2 bantam weights qualify for that event also but failed to make the top 2.  My daughter most recently won a bronze medal at the USAT Nationals JR (FIN) and will be fighting in Mid August to make the USAT National Team.  By the way, we also qualified 4 from our team for the AAU team trials in Fort Lauderdale this year.

Our Team trains 2 hours per day Monday thru Friday and 4 -6 hours per day on Saturday.  We dont have a Dojang so we are at a track 3 days a week a Rec center 3 days a week and at a high altitude for 2 hours on Saturdays.  This is a group of 20 athletes who want it very bad and who believe in their coach so much that they would train in his backyard it does not matter.  By the way, we are in Las Vegas it is 115 degrees in the summer.

Do not want to leave out my son he is a 2nd Poom.  He is a 3-time Junior Olympic Black Belt medalist world class 1 gold 1 silver and a 1 bronze.  He also one a gold in the elite division when he was eight.  He lost in the quarterfinals this year good to keep him humble.

As far a, when my kids are training I usually try to exercise my self or I sit on the ground and sweat. 

As you can see, I am very proud of my kids!!!

I don't think that I am qualified to make a call on who gets a BB or not just wanted to have a discussion


----------



## Gorilla

Wow this group is a fun bunch hope you are all having as much fun with this thread as I am...


----------



## terryl965

Gorilla said:


> Wow this group is a fun bunch hope you are all having as much fun with this thread as I am...


 
I am by the way was your kids here in  Irving earlier this year for the team training? If so was you. My son was there as well, Zachary was sparring against the two asian kids from Wisconsin sorry I cannot think of there names right now. If you are at all these tournament then you must know me as well. I need to look at your profile. Master Tubbs and Kunkle and Master Remnack are great instructors as well. I am having a blast with this thread too bad other are not.


----------



## NPTKD

TKD_Father said:


> I'm done.
> 
> I see your a 4th Dan *terryl965 *congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.
> 
> Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.
> 
> I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.
> 
> Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.


 
Well... Alot of these people like me are just trying get get a rise out of others. This is a very good site. Just don't take very thing to heart. And always remember that no matter what everyone else says.... I am the one one who opion really mean anything anyway!


----------



## just2kicku

I am not a TKDist anymore, but I gotta agree with John. 

In our school you may go all the way to brown, but if your 12, that means waiting four years before you can test for black.

And child ranks are not equal to adult ranks.

TKD father, was your kid going 6 or 7 days a week to train? 3 years seems like a very short period of time. 

I do not and will not ever think that it is OK for kids to get a black belt.


----------



## NPTKD

Gorilla said:


> NPTKD,
> 
> First, I do not sit in a waiting room at a Dojang. My son and daughter are members of a competition team in Las Vegas. The Coach/Master is a very good friend of mine and we travel all over the country together. Our team has 2 AAU National Team Members 1 is my daughter she is a JR and 1 USAT National (B) Team member he lost to Mark Lopez at the most recent National Team Trials. We also had 2 bantam weights qualify for that event also but failed to make the top 2. My daughter most recently won a bronze medal at the USAT Nationals JR (FIN) and will be fighting in Mid August to make the USAT National Team. By the way, we also qualified 4 from our team for the AAU team trials in Fort Lauderdale this year.
> 
> Our Team trains 2 hours per day Monday thru Friday and 4 -6 hours per day on Saturday. We dont have a Dojang so we are at a track 3 days a week a Rec center 3 days a week and at a high altitude for 2 hours on Saturdays. This is a group of 20 athletes who want it very bad and who believe in their coach so much that they would train in his backyard it does not matter. By the way, we are in Las Vegas it is 115 degrees in the summer.
> 
> Do not want to leave out my son he is a 2nd Poom. He is a 3-time Junior Olympic Black Belt medalist world class 1 gold 1 silver and a 1 bronze. He also one a gold in the elite division when he was eight. He lost in the quarterfinals this year good to keep him humble.
> 
> As far a, when my kids are training I usually try to exercise my self or I sit on the ground and sweat.
> 
> As you can see, I am very proud of my kids!!!
> 
> I don't think that I am qualified to make a call on who gets a BB or not just wanted to have a discussion


 Well.... My kid was student of the month at this elementary school last year! Top that.....


----------



## NPTKD

oh... I almost forgot... He fights with this mother about his bed time... and he usual wins! I just sit on the floor and sweat til its over. I would like to see Mark Lopez do that!


----------



## NPTKD

terryl965 said:


> Well I am a 5th and my web master will get it updated, see rank means nothing to me really. Knowledge means more, as far as me being dis-respectful when? I have just pointed out a few things and you are being judgemental about the converstation. I have in no way been judgemental about your sone if anything I am giving you some good advice about taking your son to the next level. The forum is one of the best for decusssion and I thought that is what we was doing? I am sorry if you fell you was being judge by me, not the case but we all must read what we want from a message board, I hope your son continues to grow and do well both on the matt and in life. I wish you the best to. As far a a 9th degree goes I give respect to all but that does not mean I have to agree with all, there is a a difference and we live in a country that allows us o be this way.:asian:


 I would like to give you a 1st gup in spelling!


----------



## NPTKD

Okay... I have come up with my own list for Poom/ BB

1. Must have facial hair. (male or female)
2. Must have lost to Mark Lopez
3. Must have the ability to take a joke.
4. On a minutes notice must be able to travel to far off distance lands to lose to well known fighters
5. and finally the most important... a parent who thinks you are ready!


----------



## NPTKD

Well you see..... That is what I'm  talking about. You really do have an eye for promotions. When I started this thread I was just a Green belt... now I have advanced to blue! I should have never doubted your skill set.


Your humblr student,
NPTKD


----------



## ATC

NPTKD said:


> oh... I almost forgot... He fights with this mother about his bed time... and he usual wins! I just sit on the floor and sweat til its over. I would like to see Mark Lopez do that!


 :rofl:


----------



## msmitht

TKD_Father said:


> Ok, maybe your right
> 
> No one can say what it takes to be a Black Belt except the people who are charged with presenting it to the individual. Each school is different.
> 
> A Grand Master has determined that my son is worthy to wear the belt of a 1st Degree. He has submitted the paperwork to have this honor recognized by the organization the school is a part of. He will be submitting my son's Kukkiwon application as well.


Not doubting your grandmasters decision. Just letting you know that I have seen a group of real Korean , hard a nails grandmasters pass a group of 7-12 year old's to poom. I watched in disgust as half of the kids could not complete taeguek 8. Then they sat and watched a demo, which was not very good btw, and were then given a long speech on commitment. After the speech they were told they all passed (no sparring/self defense/one steps) and that if they signed up for a 2nd dan program on that day they would recieve a "special discount. They each paid one thousand dollars for their test. 3 months later they were issued their 1st poom (Kukkiwon) certs. I had been invited to watch by a friend who's son was testing. I knew 2 of the GM's and they even asked me to asist in the exam. I am very glad I did not have my dobok that day (Or a suit).
What you need to understand is that there are those who will promote kids early for money and those who will not. It matters not what belt level/race they are.
Does your kid deserve it? I don't know. I can tell you that all of my students train hard for at least 4 years b4 I even consider testing them. There have been only 4 exceptions in the 20 years I have been a teacher. 2 were natural athletes and the other 2 excell at everything they do (1 is a doctor now)
Like I said b4, everyone is different and needs to be treated as such. Don't for one minute think that a 8th or 9th dan wont promote someone who is not ready. They have mortgages too.


----------



## msmitht

Oh...one more thing TKD Father :
The certificate your child will receive, If it is a legitimate Kukkiwon Cert, Will say poom on it. It is a fact. If they refer to it as a 1st dan inside your sons school then shame on his teacher/grandmaster. He should know better than that. We all have to, or at least we are supposed to, follow the same rules which can be found if you go to the Kukkiwon's web site.


----------



## Miles

msmitht said:


> What you need to understand is that there are those who will promote kids early for money and those who will not. It matters not what belt level/race they are.
> Does your kid deserve it? I don't know.


 
Bingo!  And this is exactly why it does not matter if you are ITF/WTF/ATA, etc.  all are subject to the human condition, i.e. greed, need for self-promotion, etc. of the instructor.

It always comes down to the instructor, not the organization, race, ethnicity, socio-economic status, etc.


----------



## terryl965

NPTKD said:


> I would like to give you a 1st gup in spelling!


 
Math major, wife is the ELA teacher. Just a dumb hick what can I say


----------



## rmclain

Any time you come to a public (open) forum, you need to take other people's comments and remarks with a grain of salt.  There are some that have consistent actual credentials and experience that they may share - which can be learned from.  You also have people on forums that are only elevated in their own minds and post holes in their own experience claims.  

You need to decide "what is what" and "who is who," and decide for yourself. But, understand that criticisms, praise, and suggestions are par for the course.

R. McLain




TKD_Father said:


> I'm done.
> 
> I see your a 4th Dan *terryl965 *congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.
> 
> Instead of debating the issues, you've turned to debating my son's credentials and questioned everything about him. I've not attacked you, your sons, your school, anything... yet in your posts your accusing me of "breaking down" my son's body and lying.
> 
> I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.
> 
> Apparently I was wrong. It's a place where opinions are attacked and smart *** remarks are common place.


----------



## miguksaram

TKD_Father said:


> I'm done.
> 
> I see your a 4th Dan *terryl965 *congrats. Your judging a 9th Dan's decision. Personally I think that's very disrespectful, and unbecoming of a Black Belt. If your a 5th then you need to update your web page.


 
He is not disputing a 9th Dan decision in promoting your son.  Your son in the eyes of KKW (the people who promoted your 9th dan GM), will be considered a Poom belt.  This is not a degrading term, but a term used to seperate Jr.'s from adults.  Once your kid turns 16 he will be upgraded to a specific Dan grade based on current Poom rank.  Again, this is KKW standards not an opinoin.  If you 9th dan GM is saying otherwise, then he is either misleading you or is not communicating correctly to you.

NOW, your son maybe considered a 1st DAN in the school, meaning that the school itself AND ONLY the school, recognizes your son's rank of 1st dan and equates the same as an adult 1st dan.



> I was wrong about these forums it seems. I thought it would be a great place to converse with like thinking people about issues. A place I could learn more about something that's important to my family.


 
No what you were wrong about is that you would be receiving more facts about TKD than what is discussed or revealed to you in your own dojang.  You call Mst. Terry disrepectful, yet you question him.  By your standards you are being disrespectful to him.  If you are going to visit online forums,  you need a couple of things:
1 - Thick skin.  People are going to say things that will strike a nerve or sound insulting.  You just need to brush it off.

2 - Open mind.  People are going to present information that may conflict with your current beliefs.  Instead of scoffing it off, re-check your facts agains theirs, perhaps...just maybe...you were misinformed.

3 - Logical thinking.  Don't get emotional in your replies.  If a post pisses you off, take a breath and reread it with a cooler head.  That way you are not replying out of anger which will cloud the message you are trying to send.

Remember that you can not see the face or hear the tone of voice that the message that is sent.  If you are being attacked then you need to confirm what they are trying to say.  More times than not it is the fault of the reader for taking the message the wrong way.


----------



## TKD_Father

I'm totally not judging anyone or anything. What people are doing here is attacking MY SON and his accomplishments, not debating THE ISSUE.

If you don't think a 10 year old should hold a Black Belt then express those opinions, do not start asking what tournaments MY SON has been in.

If you think someone should work 6 days a week to get a Black Belt then say that, don't ACCUSE ME of overworking MY SON.

Mr. Stoker posts a lot of pointed stuff about MY SON and not the topic issue, then says "oh, please don't take it the wrong way". The internet is great about that.

I will welcome ANY discussions regarding whether a 10 year old is too young to be a black belt. What I will NOT continue to do is accept attacks on my child. HE IS NOT THE TOPIC HERE!

Mr. Stoker - you should be ashamed. Hiding behind the "oh well I didn't mean it that way" shield. I will not attack you, your school and especially your children. I'm not like you.

*A MartialTalk Community dedicated to the Polite and Professional exploration of the Traditional Korean Martial Arts*

So far I haven't seen much to promote "Community" here at all, let along Polite or Professional.


----------



## miguksaram

TKD Father, who is you GM?   Just curious as I know a few of the local GM's in the area.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> I'm totally not judging anyone or anything.
> What people are doing here is attacking MY SON and his accomplishments, not debating THE ISSUE.
> 
> If you don't think a 10 year old should hold a Black Belt then express those opinions, do not start asking what tournaments MY SON has been in.
> 
> If you think someone should work 6 days a week to get a Black Belt then say that, don't ACCUSE ME of overworking MY SON.
> 
> Mr. Stoker posts a lot of pointed stuff about MY SON and not the topic issue, then says "oh, please don't take it the wrong way". The internet is great about that.
> 
> I will welcome ANY discussions regarding whether a 10 year old is too young to be a black belt. What I will NOT continue to do is accept attacks on my child. HE IS NOT THE TOPIC HERE!
> 
> Mr. Stoker - you should be ashamed. Hiding behind the "oh well I didn't mean it that way" shield. I will not attack you, your school and especially your children. I'm not like you.
> 
> *A MartialTalk Community dedicated to the Polite and Professional exploration of the Traditional Korean Martial Arts*
> 
> So far I haven't seen much to promote "Community" here at all, let along Polite or Professional.


Sir,

I am going to give you a polite heads up.  

Read what people say and not what you think that they are saying.  I posted a polite note earlier about double checking posts and replies. 

You say that you are not judging others, but you judge Terry specifically and other posters in general in the very same post. 

You have gone after Terry and are being far less than polite.  You are accusing people of attacking your son.  Nobody has. 

I reread the posts here just to be sure.

No, your son is not the topic here, but you have posted little about the topic at hand.  You are getting upset with people who are against kiddie BB's because you perceive it as an attack on your son.  Thus you have made your son the issue, not other posters.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming, as you are brand new and I do not know you, that you are not trying to stir things up.  So please take a step back and cool off.

Daniel


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## Laurentkd

I don't know why I am getting in the middle of this, except for the fact that I respect Master Stoker on these boards.
TKDFather when you start a post with this:
*My son tested this past Saturday for his 1st Dan. He's 9 years old and has been attending class for 3 years. I guarantee he's deserving of his 1st Dan.*

You are going to get a lot of questions.  It is not because we don't think YOUR son is deserving, but because so many parents wrongly think their child is!  Yours can very well be the exception (and none of us can prove or disprove that).  But I just want to you to realize that the statement you made just causes giant alarm bells to go off in the heads of those who have been around the block a couple times with TKD.  Especially the fact that no one can give a child a first dan Kukkiwon, it doesn't matter who you are. 
Martialtalk is THE BEST, HANDS DOWN martial arts forum I have ever come across on the internet.  The posters you read here (including Master Stoker) are full of great knowledge and even just great opinions to get you thinking.  I hope you will read some other threads and perhaps even re-read this thread with an open mind and I think you will find that everyone (well just about everyone!) here is very respectful and helpful (and those who aren't don't last long).
I am glad to have you on these boards and I hope you will stick around.


----------



## TKD_Father

Me, over reacting?? Who has been asking what tournaments my son has been attending? I'm not upset about kids getting BB's, I'm upset with Mr. Stoker debating MY SON's abilities and NOT THE TOPIC.

I understand I'm new here, and won't be spending much time here. It appears it's not a community at all but a clique.

I won't attack Mr. Stoker, his children or his school. I'm assuming, based on his posts, that he has NEVER promoted anyone under the age of 10 to Black Belt. That's entirely up to him and his school's policies. I welcome any discussion about THAT issue.

If Mr. Stoker wants to continue a discussion about children receiving BB's I'd be glad to, we share many of the same feelings on the topic. But I will not respond to anything regarding my son here, or in the future.


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## mango.man

Nobody but you injected your son into this conversation.  You must be new, not just to this site but to the entire Internet, if you think that you can contribute to a conversation by injecting a person into a conversation as an example and just expect that example to go unchallenged.


----------



## miguksaram

TKD_Father said:


> Me, over reacting?? Who has been asking what tournaments my son has been attending? I'm not upset about kids getting BB's, I'm upset with Mr. Stoker debating MY SON's abilities and NOT THE TOPIC.
> 
> I understand I'm new here, and won't be spending much time here. It appears it's not a community at all but a clique.e


 
If it appears to be a "clique" that is simply because most of these people have been on here for a long time and know each other from here or in real life.  Trust me, this little "clique" has had more than its fair share of disagreements.  Just ask Twin Fist or NPTKD or myself, just to name a few.

Those 3 items I mentioned previously should really be looked at if you want to be able to survive any discussion forum.

It has already been pointed out that you were the one who brought your son into the discussion as a child who meets the criteria.  When this is done, you best believe people will question your judgement based on the example given.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> Me, over reacting?? Who has been asking what tournaments my son has been attending? I'm not upset about kids getting BB's, I'm upset with Mr. Stoker debating MY SON's abilities and NOT THE TOPIC.


No, but you interjected him into the topic and have perpetuated this discussion about him, a discussion that should have ended with the poom/dan explanations. 



TKD_Father said:


> I understand I'm new here, and won't be spending much time here. It appears it's not a community at all but a clique.


Once again, you are judging others on this board after saying that you are not judging anyone.



TKD_Father said:


> I won't attack Mr. Stoker, his children or his school. I'm assuming, based on his posts, that he has NEVER promoted anyone under the age of 10 to Black Belt. That's entirely up to him and his school's policies. I welcome any discussion about THAT issue.


If THAT topic is the OP, then there is plenty of discussion on topic.  What are your views?  You have yet to post them.



TKD_Father said:


> If Mr. Stoker wants to continue a discussion about children receiving BB's I'd be glad to, we share many of the same feelings on the topic. But I will not respond to anything regarding my son here, or in the future.


You came on to say that your son is deserving of his belt and listed the reasons why.  You brought him up on a public board, not Terry.  

All of this has been addressed by other posters here.  Terry has apologized to you.  Why are you perpetuating this?  

Daniel


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## terryl965

TKD_Father I am going to start off by making a public apology to you, your son and your G.M., I am truely sorry for anything ill feelings this may have caused you.

On to a couple of topics, I only ask about the circuit because if he was with A.A.U. or USAT, than I would probaly know him, It seems that all up and coming athletes are well known even if they are 8-10. I was not trying to insult and then you said no he is just doing local and I offered some advice that if he has the talent that you may want to go this route for him to make a junior team or even the national team.

You also mention that you may have to leave your current instructor and I said to re-think that decission because if your GM has got him this far why change schools.

I do not need to duck and cover from anybody just for the record my comments where taken as if I do not believe in a poom rank and I do, go and read some of my post. As of today I have never promoted anybody under five years to BB whether adult-teenagers or childern. This is the way my GM did it and I have continue his ways.

I have continue to exorcise the right to have this converstation in a way that will sound bad but it is not. I get grieve from people about my own kids and they have won every major tournament and also have lost those same tournament a year later. Competition is just that competition, sometimes you win and someime you loose and grow from that. I have never came to a chat line saying my son is simply the best, you have and then retracted by saying he is one of the best. I did not take that the wrong way just that you was a proud father, which I find fullfilllng when so many childern have no parent involvement in there child life. Also I was not trying to insult your GM but correct the proper term. that will be on a KKW certificate. I truely hope you can over look what is being said and read the heart filled words I am trying to express.

I would love to see every child learn and grow as martial artist without them we have no more linage. We need strong parents to keep the sport side growing without them it cannot grow. Martial Talk is the best place to be and is a great place to learn and talk. I know sometime we get our emotion involvd and that lead us to mis understandings.

In closing I would like to say thank you to everyone for trying to explain my action and I appreciate all of you and TKD_Father I applaud you as your son grows in life and in the art of TKD.


----------



## terryl965

Just for the record I have brought up my three boys Zachary is 15 and has been a BB since the age of 9,so has Caleb and Michael. All three are Poom rank except Zachary he is consider a Dan know. I will be happy to discuss them at any length and everybody is entitle to there opinions. The door is open and I am ready to reply on all topics about them and me and my wife.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

To put this discussion back on topic...

To a great degree, the blackbelt is way over emphasized.  All that a black belt means is that the wearer is proficient in the basic curriculum. Period.  

If your school is a sport focused school, then the material will emphasize techniques that are effective in sport taekwondo.

If your school is a hardcore SD school, it will emphasize those aspects.

If it is like most schools, and has a broad scope, with a bit of everything, then a black belt student should be proficient in the full geub grade curriculum. 

If your school differentiates between junior black belts and adult blackbelts, then the student should be proficient with the technique as tested for that level of belt.

The main issue with a black belt is that very few people recognize the distinction between proficient with the basics and master. If you wear a blackbelt, you are assumed to either be a good fighter or to think that you are a good fighter.

Parents muddy the issue even further because they want to be advocates for their children, but often do not understand the martial arts well enough to do so appropriately.

Unscrupulous instructors muddy the waters because they prey on the desire to have a blackbelt and will hand them out in exchange for cash.

It was said here by someone else that if you need to hold your mommy's hand from the parking lot to the dojo, then you are not ready for a blackbelt. I cannot take credit for this, but I fully agree with it.

Lastly, many do not wish to hear that their rank or that of their child is meaningful only within the school where they train, regardless of the student's age.

Daniel


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## Grenadier

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It's very difficult to know exactly what someone's manner or "tone" is, when we're looking at written text.  Sometimes we just need to step back for a bit, and think twice before hitting the "submit reply" button.  

I don't have a problem with people debating this topic, since different schools can hold different ranking systems, and that there can certainly be merits for each particular system, as long as the instruction is good.  

Debate is encouraged, but keep it civil.  

That being said...

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
_Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71377. 

Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Ronald Shin
MT Supermoderator


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## NPTKD

I would like to once again for the record state " I am in the right on this subject!" :angel:


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## miguksaram

NPTKD said:


> I would like to once again for the record state " I am in the right on this subject!" :angel:


 
Yes, the statement duly noted and ignored. hahaha But hey..still luv ya:ultracool


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## TKD_Father

Grenadier said:


> _*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
> *
> _Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71377.
> 
> Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
> 
> Ronald Shin
> MT Supermoderator



Finally, something useful. Thank you for that, and especially the location of the Ignore Feature!


----------



## just2kicku

TKD_Father said:


> I'm totally not judging anyone or anything. What people are doing here is attacking MY SON and his accomplishments, not debating THE ISSUE.
> 
> If you don't think a 10 year old should hold a Black Belt then express those opinions, do not start asking what tournaments MY SON has been in.
> 
> If you think someone should work 6 days a week to get a Black Belt then say that, don't ACCUSE ME of overworking MY SON.
> 
> Mr. Stoker posts a lot of pointed stuff about MY SON and not the topic issue, then says "oh, please don't take it the wrong way". The internet is great about that.
> 
> I will welcome ANY discussions regarding whether a 10 year old is too young to be a black belt. What I will NOT continue to do is accept attacks on my child. HE IS NOT THE TOPIC HERE!
> 
> Mr. Stoker - you should be ashamed. Hiding behind the "oh well I didn't mean it that way" shield. I will not attack you, your school and especially your children. I'm not like you.
> 
> *A MartialTalk Community dedicated to the Polite and Professional exploration of the Traditional Korean Martial Arts*
> 
> So far I haven't seen much to promote "Community" here at all, let along Polite or Professional.




10 years old is too young for a black belt. They are neither mature enough or strong enough to help teach a class. 

And for the record, you are the one that started bragging about your son. Terry just asked you a few questions. He's a good tournament fighter, fine, that's great. In my opinion, still too young to be a black belt.


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## TKD_Father

Nobody would expect a 10 year old to teach a class. Maybe help some of the younger belts with forms, self-defense, basic stances or kicks. But teaching a class would be out of the question.

Is that part of the requirement of being a Black Belt? To teach class? To participate in regional tournaments?

The OP had 5 criteria set out, I was trying to apply them to my situation. I see that by doing that I made a huge mistake.

Each school has it's own interpretation of what Black Belt means. Unfortunately, TKD has been so bastardized in the US (as well as around the world) that there isn't a standard any longer.

*you are the one that started bragging about your son. Terry just asked you a few questions.*

I will no longer discuss my son here. Mr. Stoker knows my feelings regarding what he has posted here.


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## terryl965

Please everyone let TKD_Father alone in regard to his son. It is a issue that is over and behind us, we need to get back to the topic at hand.

So here goes, I whole heartly endrose the poom rank of a child, there is a limitation to the age but that is everybody own views. I am sure I will never have any child under the age of ten every again, the only one that was is my oldest and that was like a month before his B-day. My feeling is a 4-9 just is not ready for it, I know not much difference between 9 and 10 but in the tournaments we do the break is at 6-7, 8-9,10-11,12-13,14-17 and then 18-32 and so on. So that is why I believe a ten year old is and should be the youngest. Not saying I am right just that is my beliefs. 

Now here is the kicker for me at 17 they re-test for a dan rank which include alot more SD type to the system. My school so my rules, all my parents are aware of this by the way. Let move in the right direction here.


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## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> Nobody would expect a 10 year old to teach a class. Maybe help some of the younger belts with forms, self-defense, basic stances or kicks. But teaching a class would be out of the question.
> 
> Is that part of the requirement of being a Black Belt? To teach class?


Requirement to test? No. But once a student has a black belt, they are *generally* expected to take on some level of teaching duties beyond just class warmups. 



TKD_Father said:


> To participate in regional tournaments?


 
While there are schools that have requirements both before and after blackbelt, they are in the minority. Not all schools have a sport focus, and even those that do usually do not require you to compete in order to have a blackbelt. I do not know of any organizations that require that; the Kukkiwon certainly does not. So if a school has that requirement, they are doing that on their own.



TKD_Father said:


> Each school has it's own interpretation of what Black Belt means. Unfortunately, TKD has been so bastardized in the US (as well as around the world) that there isn't a standard any longer.


Many would consider ten year old blackbelts an example of that. 

When I was growing up, ten year old blackbelts were almost unheard of and were generally very exceptional kids. 

What has made the issue such a hot button is that school owners figured out that black belts for kids was a money maker and then gave them out like candy. 

Unfortunately, this spoils the party for the truly exceptional kids; if nobody fails, then everyone is an A+ student.

The main thing that most of us have against the idea of kiddie belts has nothing to do with the kids and everything to do with schools that use the belt system as a money maker at the expense of the student. 

Not all schools with child BB's are doing this, but many do.

Daniel


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## Gizmo

FWIW, I am much more impressed with a skilled kid wearing coloured belt than with any Poom at 9 or 10. I spent some time with Korean kids and they were all Poom belts, often 2nd and 3rd. Some of the nicest kids around. They did great demonstrations as a team, they worked like a clockwork, but none of them really impressed me with individual technique. I'm a freestyler when it comes to many things, but here in our school it takes 6 to 8 years to get to 1st Dan. Yes, we could theoretically make it quicker. The question is - what for? Call me old-fashioned, call me close-minded, but I don't believe in producing 10 years old black (or Poom) belts in 3 years. For me it is one of the reasons why TKD is looked down onto by other styles. My 10 years old students usually get to green belt or so after 3 years. They have lots of time to perfect the basics, the technical stuff related to their grade and to get to our objective, which is to have a good ADULT black belt.


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## Twin Fist

you need to back the heck up off Terry Stoker

he is the nicest guy on here.

me? i am the designated jerk

here is an example:

I dont care if your son is Bruce lee Jr. He is 10. he has as much business wearing a BB as I do claiming a PHD


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## Gorilla

Twin fist please refer to the TKD ADDICT thread


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## Carol

Just an observation

The thread starts with a poster (Gorilla) enquiring about child black belts.  Following his post is a robust discussion about child black belts, including several points that are critical of the subject. 

Therefore, it logically follows that the discussion is going to be about child black belts, and the discussion is going to be quite rigorous.  If someone is going to interject their teacher as an example, then their teacher becomes part of the discussion.  If someone wants to interject their student as an point at issue, then their student becomes part of the point at issue. And yes, if someone wants to interject their child as an example, then their child becomes part of the point at issue.

TKD_Father, welcome to MT and congratulations on your son's accomplishment.  Regardless of what any of us think of child black belts, it is refreshing to hear about kids that are training and otherwise taking on healthy habits, instead of some of the alternatives that kids are getting in to these days .  The debate over child black belts has been around for as long as there have been child black belts, and it is one that is going to continue to rage for some time.  However, you stepped in to a very hot debate.  Had you started a seperate thread simply saying that your son earned his black belt and that you were proud of him, I think you would have received a round of applause...and I think one of the loudest cheers for you and your son would be from Terry, who has 3 boys of his own in TKD.

I think Daniel mentioned that we appear to be a clique is not just because some of us know each other in reallife...its because we've gotten in to knock-down-drag-out fights with one another or helped each other through rotten situations and still managed to remain friends in the end.

Back to the mats...


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## Gorilla

Carol you have 10 thousand posts go with out delay to the TKD addict thread and give us your testimonial


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## Gorilla

Gizmo you should go to the TKD ADDICT thread without delay


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## ATC

Carol Kaur said:


> Just an observation
> 
> The thread starts with a poster (Gorilla) enquiring about child black belts. Following his post is a robust discussion about child black belts, including several points that are critical of the subject.
> 
> Therefore, it logically follows that the discussion is going to be about child black belts, and the discussion is going to be quite rigorous. If someone is going to interject their teacher as an example, then their teacher becomes part of the discussion. If someone wants to interject their student as an point at issue, then their student becomes part of the point at issue. And yes, if someone wants to interject their child as an example, then their child becomes part of the point at issue.
> 
> TKD_Father, welcome to MT and congratulations on your son's accomplishment. Regardless of what any of us think of child black belts, it is refreshing to hear about kids that are training and otherwise taking on healthy habits, instead of some of the alternatives that kids are getting in to these days . The debate over child black belts has been around for as long as there have been child black belts, and it is one that is going to continue to rage for some time. However, you stepped in to a very hot debate. Had you started a seperate thread simply saying that your son earned his black belt and that you were proud of him, I think you would have received a round of applause...and I think one of the loudest cheers for you and your son would be from Terry, who has 3 boys of his own in TKD.
> 
> I think Daniel mentioned that we appear to be a clique is not just because some of us know each other in reallife...its because we've gotten in to knock-down-drag-out fights with one another or helped each other through rotten situations and still managed to remain friends in the end.
> 
> Back to the mats...


Show off!!! :asian:


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Carol Kaur said:


> I think Daniel mentioned that we appear to be a clique is not just because some of us know each other in reallife...its because we've gotten in to knock-down-drag-out fights with one another or helped each other through rotten situations and still managed to remain friends in the end.


While the observation is true, twas not I who made it.  But thank you

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram

TKD_Father said:


> Nobody would expect a 10 year old to teach a class. Maybe help some of the younger belts with forms, self-defense, basic stances or kicks. But teaching a class would be out of the question.


 
Why?  If they are competent enough to have a black belt on why couldn't they teach a class?

We have had our brown belts and jr. black belts run youth classes.  Granted we had an adult black belt on hand to watch over to make sure things went ok, but over all the kids were the ones that conducted the class.  This was part in due to the fact they we knew they were competent enough at their rank level to run the class, else they would not have gotten to the level.

I'm not saying 10 year olds should be unsupervised when teaching, but they should be able to conduct a full class from beginning to end at a black belt level.



> Is that part of the requirement of being a Black Belt? To teach class? To participate in regional tournaments?


 
For us it is.  The canidates for black belts must log in teaching or assistant teaching time in order to test.  They must also participate in tournaments be it local, regional or interschool.


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## TKD_Father

miguksaram I hope you won't take this the wrong way... But one of the things I checked out prior to choosing a school for my son was who the instructors would be.

Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang. Please don't get me wrong. I'm definitely NOT calling your school a McD! I had read a lot of information prior to choosing my son's school and "students teaching" was one of the red flags.

My son doesn't teach class. He is called upon to assist when the belts break into groups for forms or self-defense. This is after the instructor has gone through the material at least twice.


----------



## Gizmo

TKD_Father said:


> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=17859
> Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang.



Again, it depends on the school and how long does it take to get to Black Belt. I don't know about the U.S., but here in our neck of woods many instructors don't hold black belts, and what is more interesting - this is typical for hardcore styles like Kyokushinkai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Kickboxing. In TKD, the minimal requirement to pass the instructor course in Poland is red belt (2nd or 1st Gup) which is an equivalent to brown belt in different styles. The trick is, those wearing the belt sometimes have 10+ years of experience. The highest graded active Kickboxing instructor in Poland is 4th Dan and he was a world champion 20+ years ago.

As a sidenote, all Kickboxing instructors in my club are brown belts, including myself. I don't think that we qualify for McDojang title, however.


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## Twin Fist

TKD_Father said:


> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=17859
> Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang..



10 YEAR OLD BB's ARE A SIGN OF A BELT FACTORY MCDOJO

you know, like the one YOU go to

Brown belts teaching is traditional, when i started in 1984, it was MONTHS before i was in a class taught by a Black Belt.

When i was a brown belt, i was teaching 20 hours a week.

When i was in Japan, all the beginner classes were taught by Brown Belts

Thats the deal, you have to LEARN TO TEACH to be a *TRUE Black Belt

*you do that as a Brown belt


----------



## Twin Fist

oh, and fix your signature, there is NO SUCH THING as a first dan poom


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## TKD_Father

Whats wrong with my signature now?

I struck out First Dan and replaced it with Poom. I thought that was correct.

Or you don't understand the  part?

It's called UBB Code which is short for _*U*ltimate *B*ulletin *B*oard. _It allows for formatting text where HTML might not be allowed.

You can use it here... Like {b}BOLD{/b} replace the { with [ and it shows up like this *BOLD*. There are some basic ones like _italics_, font colors. The [\strike] isn't used on this board, but it would be a word (or words) that had a line through the middle of them - striking them out.



> 10 YEAR OLD BB's ARE A SIGN OF A BELT FACTORY MCDOJO
> 
> you know, like the one YOU go to


Again with the personal attacks?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> miguksaram I hope you won't take this the wrong way... But one of the things I checked out prior to choosing a school for my son was who the instructors would be.
> 
> Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang. Please don't get me wrong. I'm definitely NOT calling your school a McD! I had read a lot of information prior to choosing my son's school and "students teaching" was one of the red flags.


And all of the places that say this all say that ten year old black belts are a *huge* sign of a mcdojo too.

The big factor is not whether or not the students are teaching, but what the criteria is for them doing so. If it takes four years just to get to brown belt and the brown belt is teaching a basic class, that is certainly better than an eighteen month black belt trying to teach an advanced class, for example.  

Keep in mind that a three years to brown belt student is the equivalent of second dan at a two year BB dojo.  A four years to brown belt is the equivalent of a second dan who is half way to third dan at a two year BB dojo.  

This all comes back to what I said earlier: rank only has substantive meaning within a school.



TKD_Father said:


> My son doesn't teach class. He is called upon to assist when the belts break into groups for forms or self-defense. This is after the instructor has gone through the material at least twice.


I would consider this part of teaching duties that are expected of a black belt level student (as outlined in my previous response to your teaching question). 

In general, the longer a student is a blackbelt, the more responsibilities in those areas will be expected of them until eventually, the student will be teaching whole classes.

By the time a student has passed their first kyu and dan-bo if the school has one, they essentially "know" taekwondo. One can continue to practice for love of the art without ever becoming a yudanja.

The essential reasons for continuing to advance in rank are:

1. Responsibility (always some amount of teaching along the way, also necessary for administrative roles, such as school owners and organizational heads)
2. Competition requirements
3. Love of the art along with a willingness to Financially support the school and organization
4. Additional material to the organizational curriculum that is only available 
to yudansha.
5. Blindly following the GM and testing for no other reason that because he or she told you to.
6. Status

All other reasons for continued advancement stem from one of these four basic reasons. Every school has a mix of all six of these motivations. None of them are inherently good or bad, and each school addresses them differently.

Generally, the only valid reasons for a child to be promoted to black belt are 2, 5, and 6. 

Number 6 is *usually* to satisfy parental demands. 

Number 5 is *usually* to collect the parent's money, using 6 as the bait (your little Suzy will by a black belt! Of course you want to have her test and pay the $____ hundred dollars testing fee). 

Sometimes, number five is because the instructor has an exceptional student and they do not want to see the student quit, so the promotion is intended to encourage the student to continue. And this is really what the Poom ranks were designed for: to keep a kid who is interested from getting discouraged. 

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

for one thing, your code shouldnt show up if you do it right

and second, it isnt an attack against you, it is however an attack on the crap factory that you send your son to

you came here, asking for advice, and then, when you didnt like the advice you got, started insulting people.

dont be THAT GUY

there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from, if not centuries, Hell, jsut between Terry, Daniel and me, thats over 75 years of training right there.

be smart and listen to it. or, keep pretending your son learned something.

3 years for a BB is crap

10 year old BB is crap

3 years for a 10 yr old to get to BB is a crap sandwich


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> Brown belts teaching is traditional, when i started in 1984, it was MONTHS before i was in a class taught by a Black Belt.
> 
> When i was a brown belt, i was teaching 20 hours a week.
> 
> When i was in Japan, all the beginner classes were taught by Brown Belts


That is how it was when I first started and through the eighties.  Brown belts are a *very* big deal at a true traditional school.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from, if not centuries, Hell, jsut between Terry, Daniel and me, thats over 75 years of training right there.


And between the three of us, we probably have enough accumulated training injuries to make a strong case for cybernetics research.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And between the three of us, we probably have enough accumulated training injuries to make a strong case for cybernetics research.
> 
> Daniel




lord knows thats true


----------



## TKD_Father

This is tiring, thank goodness for the Ignore User ability. Twin Fist gets the first click.

No matter what anyone says, it's all opinion. It's entirely up to the school where each person practices to determine the belt requirements for advancement. 

Agree, don't agree... there is no right answer, just what you think the requirement should be, or what it is at your school.

TKD is so bastardized in America (overseas as well, and even somewhat in Korea) that it's impossible to set any type of "standardization" any longer.

The school my son attends is run by a Grand Master who has over 50 years in TKD beginning in Korea, which is more time then many of you making comments have been alive. Just like any other school, he has his requirements for BB's which everyone must abide by for promotion.


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> for one thing, your code shouldnt show up if you do it right
> 
> and second, it isnt an attack against you, it is however an attack on the crap factory that you send your son to
> 
> you came here, asking for advice, and then, when you didnt like the advice you got, started insulting people.
> 
> dont be THAT GUY
> 
> there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from, if not centuries, Hell, jsut between Terry, Daniel and me, thats over 75 years of training right there.
> 
> be smart and listen to it. or, keep pretending your son learned something.
> 
> 3 years for a BB is crap
> 
> 10 year old BB is crap
> 
> 3 years for a 10 yr old to get to BB is a crap sandwich



Twin Fist,

You seem to have some very strong opinions about this subject.  I have posted on this thread my TKD affiliation.  Are you from a traditional TKD school a Sport school? I am not questioning your credentials just trying to get some background so that I can understand where you are coming from (I am a Newbie to Martial Talk). We started at a traditional school and are currently on a sport team with some traditional leanings.  We still do forms and self-defense but mostly focus on the sport side.


----------



## jks9199

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.  If you find you cannot respond politely and respectfully to a particular user, we encourage you to make use of the Ignore feature.

jks9199
Moderator*


----------



## miguksaram

TKD_Father said:


> miguksaram I hope you won't take this the wrong way... But one of the things I checked out prior to choosing a school for my son was who the instructors would be.
> 
> 
> 
> Having Brown belts teach is one sign of a McDojang. Please don't get me wrong. I'm definitely NOT calling your school a McD! I had read a lot of information prior to choosing my son's school and "students teaching" was one of the red flags.


 
Why is it wrong for a brown belt to teach?   If they have been it for a good amount of time, in our school's case you would most likely been in it for about 4-5 years, why couldn't they teach? Again, I'm not saying they are running the place.  They are just instructing a class and there is still a black belt on the floor to supervise. 

BTW - It takes alot more than that to offend me.


----------



## miguksaram

TKD_Father said:


> The school my son attends is run by a Grand Master who has over 50 years in TKD beginning in Korea, which is more time then many of you making comments have been alive. Just like any other school, he has his requirements for BB's which everyone must abide by for promotion.


 
Who is your GM?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> No matter what anyone says, it's all opinion. It's entirely up to the school where each person practices to determine the belt requirements for advancement.


No and yes. 

No: If you are running a school that is associated with any organization, there are organizational requirements that are not a matter of opinion. The Kukkiwon requirements of both curriculum and age are spelled out in their bylaws. I posted a link to these much earlier in this thread.

Yes: it is up to the individual school to evaluate how well those requirements were met and to impose additional requirements.



TKD_Father said:


> Agree, don't agree... there is no right answer, just what you think the requirement should be, or what it is at your school.


*What they should be:* Proficiency in the curriculum set down by either the organization or dojo cho if it is an independent school. The ability to to effectively spar under the rule set of whatever organization their school is a part of. The ability to defend one's self reasonably well _using the style_. 

*At my school: *GM Kim grades the students on the base KKW material. They need to know all of their taegeuk poomsae, must demonstrated sparring proficiency in the WTF rule set, have a working knowledge of Korean terminology, and perform all of the hand and leg techniques in various stances. Four different breaks of GM Kim's choosing.

Our point of individualization is that the test is a very physical test. His main emphasis is on indomitable spirit and the student's mind. A full warmup complete with a ton of pushups are all a part of the test. 100 each of the basic kicks (front, turning, side, axe), 100 punches, an assorted number of blocks as he calls them out until he is satisfied. The student must also know all of the self defense techniques that he teaches in the class, which are drawn from hapkido (he is a former ROK Special Army HKD instructor). After all that, you spar four high belt/black belt students of varying sizes with no rest in between and then spar one of the instructors. 

The poom belts are no exception to this. The only real difference is that they generally break thinner boards and generally spar kids in their age range. Exceptionally large kids will get the same boards and spar opponents that are more appropriately sized, usually teens.



TKD_Father said:


> TKD is so bastardized in America (overseas as well, and even somewhat in Korea) that it's impossible to set any type of "standardization" any longer.


In general? Within specific organizations? Bastardized in what way? Not that you are necesarily wrong, but that is a fairly sweeping statement.

I do not agree that any type of standardization is impossible: The Kukkiwon sets a curriculum standard. It is fairly brief in comparison to what it could be, so within a single org, yes, a standard of some kind can be set.



TKD_Father said:


> The school my son attends is run by a Grand Master who has over 50 years in TKD beginning in Korea, which is more time then many of you making comments have been alive.


Without trying to seem condescending, that is irrelevant to the discussion. 

Grand masters of all ages have their own motivations and reasons for doing things. I have see high ranking GMs go from being total hard core to being belt factories as the years progress, putting belts on students who are an embarrasment to their school.

No, I am not saying that about yours; I do not know the man, so I would not make that assumption. Nor am I saying it about most. But it does happen. Ninth degree rank and age are no guarantee that the school is not a McDojo or that he is true to what the standards were envisioned to be when he began practicing. 

I can say that Jhoon Rhee schools had very different standards of BB's when I studied under him in the seventies as compared to what the standards are now (whether or not that is good or bad is a different discussion). And that guy is a TKD institution!

In the end, GM's gotta eat. You would be surprised how quickly one compromises their lofty standards when they need to pay rent on the building.



TKD_Father said:


> Just like any other school, he has his requirements for BB's which everyone must abide by for promotion.


And your son met those requirements and thus is a BB in that school. 

Same as I am a BB in my own school. If I head down to Twin Fist's school, they may decide that I am not up to their standards and I may not be able to wear my belt until I catch up on what they do.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> Why is it wrong for a brown belt to teach? If they have been it for a good amount of time, in our school's case you would most likely been in it for about 4-5 years, why couldn't they teach? Again, I'm not saying they are running the place. They are just instructing a class and there is still a black belt on the floor to supervise.


And in many other schools, that five year brown belt would be a second dan black.

Daniel


----------



## ATC

Wow!!! This thread really took on a life of its own. Can't wait to see where it goes next.

Maybe the actual topic is dead now and maybe we should close this one. Or maybe not. Just saying.


----------



## KELLYG

TKD FATHER,

I am so glad to hear that you are involved and proud of your son's achievements.  There are so many children that are lost and have no one to care for them.   I think regular practice in Martial Arts is a good thing and will benefit him in the long run.   Belts and who gets them and when is a hot button topic here.   There are just as many opinions as there are colors in the rainbow.  A couple of points   Po om Dan is what a younger child earns until they reach a certain age period.   If you took your son to another school to train he may be backed down to a red/black belt (poom belt) The questions about the tournaments are legitimate questions.   There is a vast difference in preforming at a local tournament with 5  to 15 persons in a bracket than one of the larger tournaments who may have 50 to 100 competitors per bracket.  Teaching and helping  to teach in class I an awsome experience.  Explaining it to someone else is and excellent way to set it in your own mind firmly.  As for masters and grandmasters, don't worry so much about the number of stripes on the belt it is not necessarily a valid bench mark of their skills.  I have seen high ranking masters that I would not allow to teach my dog.  Since I don't  you, your son, or his teachers I would have to say I have no basis to judge anyting.


----------



## TKD_Father

miguksaram - Glad you didn't take offense, my comments were NOT meant to attack you, or your school in any way. You asked *Who is your GM?* I've learned NOT to divulge any information on these forums lest the sharks attack. I tried sharing my personal experiences only to have them attacked, so I won't do that again.

Daniel, you said *Without trying to seem condescending, that is irrelevant to the discussion.* When I mentioned that the GM at my son's school has over 50 years of experience.

My comments were in response to a poster saying *there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from*. The Grand Master at my son's school has been involved in TKD for over five decades - half a century - himself.

I'm glad you posted the requirements for your school. After reading through them I see that there isn't much difference.

*They need to know all of their taegeuk poomsae* Same.

*must demonstrated sparring proficiency in the WTF rule set* Little different. My son had to spar 2v1 and 3v1.

*have a working knowledge of Korean terminology* Same.

*and perform all of the hand and leg techniques in various stances* Same.

*Four different breaks of GM Kim's choosing.* Different. Only 2 breaks required, though one is a cement brick.

*A full warmup complete with a ton of pushups are all a part of the test. 100 each of the basic kicks (front, turning, side, axe), 100 punches, an assorted number of blocks as he calls them out until he is satisfied* Same. Except all warm up kicks are Jumping. One set of 100 Jumping Front Snaps - 50 Pushups, a set of 100 Jumping Round House - 50 Pushups. I think they did a total of 500 Jumping Kicks with 200 Pushups spaced between. One student was excused to "yak"... he came back in and continued a couple minutes later.

*The student must also know all of the self defense techniques* Same.

*After all that, you spar four high belt/black belt students of varying sizes with no rest in between and then spar one of the instructors.* Different. As I mentioned before, it was 2v1 sparring, then 3v1 sparring. My son's school is more of a Poomse school.

It seems that our requirements are very close eh Daniel?


----------



## mango.man

KELLYG said:


> There is a vast difference in preforming at a local tournament with 5 to 15 persons in a bracket than one of the larger tournaments who may have 50 to 100 competitors per bracket.


 
I just wanted to point out that there is not that much difference between a bracket of 15 and a bracket of 100.

A bracket of 15 means that 1 person gets a bye and needs 3 wins for gold and the other 14 need 4 wins for gold.

A bracket of 100 means that 28 people get a bye and need 6 wins for gold and the other 72 need 7 wins for gold.

So the difference between the winning in a bracket of 15 vs winning in a bracket of 100 is as small as just 2 fights which is not as overwhelming as the size of the bracket might make it seem.

My point is that the difference between performing well at a local event vs a national or international event is the quality of the people that will show up, not how many will show up.


----------



## terryl965

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And between the three of us, we probably have enough accumulated training injuries to make a strong case for cybernetics research.
> 
> Daniel


 
Yes we do and for the record I broke my toe. Man what else can one do.


----------



## terryl965

I would like to add that the size of a tournament does not matter but the quality of the bigger tournament is so much better. You see the cream of the crop will be at the National level tournaments and thos enot ready for that are at the state level. I said I will stay out of this but TF brought up some great points earlier, I wish the GM themself would come on and explain instead of people attending schools. Not trying to be little anyone just stating the facts.


----------



## Twin Fist

Gorilla said:


> Twin Fist,
> 
> You seem to have some very strong opinions about this subject.  I have posted on this thread my TKD affiliation.  Are you from a traditional TKD school a Sport school? I am not questioning your credentials just trying to get some background so that I can understand where you are coming from (I am a Newbie to Martial Talk). We started at a traditional school and are currently on a sport team with some traditional leanings.  We still do forms and self-defense but mostly focus on the sport side.




I come from the Allen Steen "Blood and Guts" Tex Kwon Do lineage. Half the time, we do even call it TKD, many of us still call it KOREAN KARATE, which is what it is.

no sport fighting, just FIGHTING

sports are sports, i got into karate for hard core self defense, not to wear little pull over pajamas so i can throw little flippy no power kicks and fall over while i do it.

someone wants to get into the sport aspect, fine, dont call yourself a Black Belt

Black Belts are for MARTIAL ARTS, not sports.


----------



## Twin Fist

oh shoot, the new guy put me on his iggy list...i am sad now. And he sent me a nasty gram about it. *chuckle*

Daniel has the right of it, school standards are relative. What is a legit BB in one school might be a green belt at another school.

this was avoided in the old days because the schools would police each other, if someone was teaching cheese, the other school owners would have a little chat with him.

back then, they realized that one person teaching cheese made them all look cheesy, and it wasnt tolerated.

but in todays world, we dont do that.

I think i liked it better in the old days


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> Daniel has the right of it, school standards are relative. What is a legit BB in one school might be a green belt at another school.


Absolutely.  Their are two issues at play here.  

*Rank inflation*
Usually accompanied by lousy teaching.  Rank inflation is essentially what is happening when students are just passed along without regards to their actual level of proficiency.  

*Differing school focus*
Different schools can have radically different flavors and can all be excellent schools.  A school where the master seeks to have a peacful zen garden atmosphere and strresses spiritual qualities will produce a different kind of student than school where competition is the main focus and the master seeks to have a modern athletics atmosphere with all of the latest gear and modern training methods.

Then there is the old school traditional dojo where the emphasis is on how to dismantle your opponent before he and his buddies can dismantle you.

Then you have schools that do a little bit of everything (mine).  And there are others and combinations of the above as well.

Nothing wrong with any of these.  So long as the teaching is solid and the black belt students are actually proficient in the school's core curriculum.  

Zen garden's BBs should all be smooth and graceful.  They should be well versed in the tenets and philosophy of taekwondo.  They should know the meanings of the poomsae.

A BB in a WTF sport competition focused school should be a monster in the ring, should kick like a mule and should know the rules and peculiarities of the sport and all of the commands and such in Korean.

The B & G school BBs should be tough as nails, know all of the possible SD applications for the poomsae, and kick like a mule, punch like a sledgehammer, and block they have a targe attached to each arm.  They should have strong awareness and be able to handle multiple opponents and have at least a rudimentary defense against knives.  Oh, and breakfalls, breakfalls, breakfalls.  And rolls.

The all around school BB should be reasonably competent in the ring, have a good base of the tenets and thought of the art, and be able to handle themselves in an SD situation without freezing up and panicking.

Whatever the focus of the school, the students skill should reflect their rank and belt and should receive their promotions based on their progression in the schools curriculum.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And in many other schools, that five year brown belt would be a second dan black.
> 
> Daniel


 
Funny you should mention something like that.  We had an incident where my youngest son, who at the time was 8 and a green belt (5th gup/kyu), participated at an "Open" taekwondo tournament.  Baiscly they allowed karate people to participate, but it was ran like a TKD tournament.  We were the only non TKD people there.  He won his age/rank forms division and got to participate in the grands where they had all the winners of the same age go of his age go against each other.  He wound up winning the overall grands beating out the black belts.  

One parent didn't believe he was a green belt and accused us of cheating, they asked him how long he had been studying.  Elijah told them he had been studying for four years.  The parent told him he should have been ranked as a black belt if he was in it that long.  Elijah told them that it was hard to get a black belt at our school, because you have to know all your forms, weapons, ippons, taezus, sparring and history.  Their kid braggingly told Elijah that he has been in it for 4 years and he's already a 2nd dan and he just needed to know his form for testing, his required breaking technique and required one-step sparring.  Without missing a beat Elijah told him "I guess that's why I beat you."

Nearly bit my tonugue off trying to stop from laughing out loud at that remark.


----------



## miguksaram

TKD_Father said:


> miguksaram - Glad you didn't take offense, my comments were NOT meant to attack you, or your school in any way. You asked *Who is your GM?* I've learned NOT to divulge any information on these forums lest the sharks attack. I tried sharing my personal experiences only to have them attacked, so I won't do that again.


 
Undestood. I am from Aurora, IL and know, either through meeting or through reputation, a good number of the GM's in our area, so I was just curious to see if I knew your GM. Wasn't trying to gather ammo for attack.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> miguksaram - Glad you didn't take offense, my comments were NOT meant to attack you, or your school in any way. You asked *Who is your GM?* I've learned NOT to divulge any information on these forums lest the sharks attack. I tried sharing my personal experiences only to have them attacked, so I won't do that again.
> 
> Daniel, you said *Without trying to seem condescending, that is irrelevant to the discussion.* When I mentioned that the GM at my son's school has over 50 years of experience.
> 
> My comments were in response to a poster saying *there are literally DECADES of experience here to gleen from*. The Grand Master at my son's school has been involved in TKD for over five decades - half a century - himself.
> 
> I'm glad you posted the requirements for your school. After reading through them I see that there isn't much difference.
> 
> *They need to know all of their taegeuk poomsae* Same.
> 
> *must demonstrated sparring proficiency in the WTF rule set* Little different. My son had to spar 2v1 and 3v1.
> 
> *have a working knowledge of Korean terminology* Same.
> 
> *and perform all of the hand and leg techniques in various stances* Same.
> 
> *Four different breaks of GM Kim's choosing.* Different. Only 2 breaks required, though one is a cement brick.
> 
> *A full warmup complete with a ton of pushups are all a part of the test. 100 each of the basic kicks (front, turning, side, axe), 100 punches, an assorted number of blocks as he calls them out until he is satisfied* Same. Except all warm up kicks are Jumping. One set of 100 Jumping Front Snaps - 50 Pushups, a set of 100 Jumping Round House - 50 Pushups. I think they did a total of 500 Jumping Kicks with 200 Pushups spaced between. One student was excused to "yak"... he came back in and continued a couple minutes later.
> 
> *The student must also know all of the self defense techniques* Same.
> 
> *After all that, you spar four high belt/black belt students of varying sizes with no rest in between and then spar one of the instructors.* Different. As I mentioned before, it was 2v1 sparring, then 3v1 sparring. My son's school is more of a Poomse school.
> 
> It seems that our requirements are very close eh Daniel?


Not so different, no.

Just for the record, and as stated previously, I make no judgements about your son's school or GM.  Or anyone else's for that matter.  

Regarding the decades of experience comment, it is not a question of member's experience being greater than that of your GM, but one of different experiences.  

When you (the general _you_, not you specifically) are with one GM who has decades of experience at a school where you are a big fish in a small pond (which is what my experience was), then you come to a large forum and are no longer in the small pond, you benefit not just from your' own GM's perspective, but from many perspectives.  

Kind of like going from a small local tournament to a state or national tournament, and you realize that there is a whole lot more out there than you had previously thought.

Daniel


----------



## TKD_Father

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Absolutely.  Their are two issues at play here.
> 
> *Rank inflation*
> Usually accompanied by lousy teaching.  Rank inflation is essentially what is happening when students are just passed along without regards to their actual level of proficiency.
> 
> *Differing school focus*
> Different schools can have radically different flavors and can all be excellent schools.  A school where the master seeks to have a peacful zen garden atmosphere and strresses spiritual qualities will produce a different kind of student than school where competition is the main focus and the master seeks to have a modern athletics atmosphere with all of the latest gear and modern training methods.
> 
> Daniel



Outstanding post, exactly what I've been trying to convey. My son's school focuses on Forms. And not the Sine Wave stuff... I have yet to fully grasp that, but that's for another thread.



miguksaram said:


> Undestood. I am from Aurora, IL and know, either through meeting or through reputation, a good number of the GM's in our area, so I was just curious to see if I knew your GM. Wasn't trying to gather ammo for attack.



Hey neighbor! I know you weren't, it's the other low life vultures here that would. No offense to the high life vultures.


----------



## mwd0818

TKD_Father said:


> Outstanding post, exactly what I've been trying to convey. My son's school focuses on Forms. And not the Sine Wave stuff... I have yet to fully grasp that, but that's for another thread.



Glad to see more people getting along now.  

In any case TKD Father - congrats on your son's promotion and hopefully he has found something that he can train and enjoy for a lifetime as many of the members on here do.

Now, the real question about Youth Black Belts . . . 

why aren't their parents getting Adult Black Belts?


----------



## TKD_Father

mwd0818 said:


> Now, the real question about Youth Black Belts . . .
> 
> why aren't their parents getting Adult Black Belts?


I'd absolutely love to participate with my son!

In my case, I blew out my knee playing racquetball in the Military. It's never been the same. Arthroscopic + rehab - flexibility - ability to straighten, does not equal TKD.


----------



## mwd0818

TKD_Father said:


> I'd absolutely love to participate with my son!
> 
> In my case, I blew out my knee playing racquetball in the Military. It's never been the same. Arthroscopic + rehab - flexibility - ability to straighten, does not equal TKD.



Good point . . . TKD and bad legs don't go well together.  And as far as sport goes, TKD is one of the best martial sports out there with the availability of tournaments, world recognition of rulesets, etc.  I see why a lot of kids participate as it is giving them an athletic endeavor and a sports/competition outlet not to mention just the general martial arts training exposure.  Keep an eye out, and hopefully one day you'll find some way to get in there (hapkido maybe if you are sticking with Korean arts?).

(Not detracting from any TKD school's self-defense curriculum or focus, but I have trouble taking my Hawaiian Kempo forms into tournaments and doing anything with them, because everyone is expecting to see TKD or Japanese Karate forms.  That, and you guys don't like the way we spar, or maybe we just don't like rules . . . )


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> Outstanding post, exactly what I've been trying to convey. My son's school focuses on Forms. And not the Sine Wave stuff... I have yet to fully grasp that, but that's for another thread.


Sine wave is ITF, so I doubt that a KKW only student would ever encounter it in class.  The general principle, from what I can see, is that it involes an up down motion to generate power.  The motion resembles a sine wave as it appears on an occilloscope, hence the name.  Probably works well for some techniques (front kicks, punches), not as well for others (turnng kicks, hook kicks, and such).



TKD_Father said:


> Hey neighbor! I know you weren't, it's the other low life vultures here that would. No offense to the high life vultures.


Nor did I take offense, but implying that other members are low life vultures is a bit over the top.  

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> I'd absolutely love to participate with my son!
> 
> In my case, I blew out my knee playing racquetball in the Military. It's never been the same. Arthroscopic + rehab - flexibility - ability to straighten, does not equal TKD.


For starters, thank you for your service.

Not sure if your doctor would caution against it, but if you tried out TKD, you may simply have to accept that that leg will not be your high kicker.  Or concentrate on the hand techniques (there are tons).

Daniel


----------



## shesulsa

mwd0818 said:


> Glad to see more people getting along now.
> 
> In any case TKD Father - congrats on your son's promotion and hopefully he has found something that he can train and enjoy for a lifetime as many of the members on here do.
> 
> Now, the real question about Youth Black Belts . . .
> 
> why aren't their parents getting Adult Black Belts?



Probably the same reason the high school quarterback's dad isn't on the field ... either he has other endeavors which claim his time, it's not the sport for him, or he has already learned many of the lessons afforded by youth sports.

I will say that I can't support promoting such a young child to a black rank.  But I will say that I think many expect things from kids' martial arts programs here in the West that are unreasonable in every case and difficult to deliver.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

shesulsa said:


> But I will say that I think many expect things from kids' martial arts programs here in the West that are unreasonable in every case and difficult to deliver.


 
Well, one thing to consider is that most kids martial arts programs are focused on character building and sport, so you have more of a youth sports program oftimes than a traditional martial arts program.

The mentality is that the martial arts can develop discipline and strong character in a child. While I do believe that martial arts *can*, many schools simply use this line of marketing to milk parents of money while delivering an inferior product as compared to what youth sports usually deliver.

One area that I do feel martial arts do for kids is that every kid gets to 'play' so to speak. In other words, your kid who is not athletic does not get benched because he or she is unathletic: they have to do the same forms and such as everyone else and have full class participation. On test day, they get to do their best and either pass or not, along with everyone else, whereas on game day, only the "better" players are given time on the field and an opportunity to score. 

The focus of a sports team is to win, while the focus of a martial art is to train the individual, and for that reason, I am a strong proponent of kids in martial arts. 

Daniel


----------



## mwd0818

shesulsa said:


> Probably the same reason the high school quarterback's dad isn't on the field ... either he has other endeavors which claim his time, it's not the sport for him, or he has already learned many of the lessons afforded by youth sports.



I agree, but was just pointing out that there are a lot of benefits afforded by martial arts at any age.


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist...Thank you for your input...I think hardcore self-defense is a great thing...I did for several years...In the US Army and several jobs that I had as a youth..., which included Repo Man, Bouncing and PI work, and some bounty work. Never held a Dan Rank but if you are into Hard Core Self Def formal martial arts (TKD, Judo etc...) is not needed "nice to have" but not needed. Sport TKD is a different thing. I know people who are good at both. However, to compare Sport TKD to Self Def TKD is apples and oranges. The thing that we disagree on is that one should not diminish the other&#8230;.but based on your own statements this is your role on Martial Arts Talk&#8230;You do a very good job!!!


----------



## miguksaram

mwd0818 said:


> Now, the real question about Youth Black Belts . . .
> 
> why aren't their parents getting Adult Black Belts?


 
I do and am.  My son and I are both going up for our black belts in Shorei on the 15th of August (well mine is adult and his is Jr....the only difference between our tests is about 2 hours.)

We have had a few parents join later after their kid was moving up in rank.  Funny thing is that parents who do that tend to zip through the first belts pretty quickly because they have been working with their kid for so long on their stuff.


----------



## jim777

Wow, it's been a while since I read a complete 10 page thread in one shot, but this one has been a very easy read. I've laughed out loud reading this thread, shaken my head in utter disbelief, and laughed some more.


----------



## terryl965

*Hey neighbor! I know you weren't, it's the other low life vultures here that would. No offense to the high life vultures. *

I guess that this is directed to me, so I will note this in the file and reply... I know all the biggest GM in the industry and they respect me. I know your GM and he is a great guy and wish he would be the one talking and not go between like it has been. TKD_Father remember we can never be liked by all but we can earn each other respect. Hopefully in time we will learn to respect each other.


----------



## mwd0818

miguksaram said:


> I do and am.  My son and I are both going up for our black belts in Shorei on the 15th of August (well mine is adult and his is Jr....the only difference between our tests is about 2 hours.)
> 
> We have had a few parents join later after their kid was moving up in rank.  Funny thing is that parents who do that tend to zip through the first belts pretty quickly because they have been working with their kid for so long on their stuff.



Congratulations!

Good luck with it, although luck never has anything to do with training - it's hard work and time.


----------



## TKD_Father

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I guess that this is directed to me, so I will note this in the file and reply...



That was not directed at anyone in particular. I hope you don't feel as though it is... I'll tell you in all honesty, the remark was not meant for you.

My point with that is - there are people here who don't care at all about the issue, they simply post in order to get a "raise" out of someone.

I've learned some things here, taught by you and others. 

Do NOT under any circumstances divulge personal information. It becomes a target.

Do NOT respond to attacks or anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Notify the moderator and let them handle it.

The Ignore feature is awesome, which you are not on btw 

I learned to research... learn more about the person who is posting to try to understand more of where they are coming from. Which means "considering the source".

I learned that the requirements my son met are not unlike other school's requirements - Thanks to Daniel.

*I know your GM and he is a great guy and wish he would be the one talking and not go between like it has been.*
You must know his reputation then as well.


----------



## miguksaram

mwd0818 said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> Good luck with it, although luck never has anything to do with training - it's hard work and time.


 
Thank you.  This is the first time I have been nervous about a test since my tangsoodo bb test back in 1988.  That was the last one, in my opinoin that I had to really work for.  This one is going to be a mental and physical beat down to say the least. 

Like I have been telling people, test is August 15th, my memorial/funeral services will be Aug 16th...This is a BYOB service.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> Do NOT under any circumstances divulge personal information. It becomes a target.
> 
> Do NOT respond to attacks or anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Notify the moderator and let them handle it.


Actually, there are a ton of other reasons not to divulge too much personal information that has nothing to do with disagreements on the web.  Not the least of which would be advertising to the world where you and your son are in the evenings.  People with zero interest in the martial arts and a high interest in nefarious activity lurk on a multitude of sites, including this one I would gather.

As for attacks in general:  if you feel that something may be an attack, it is generally best to feel out the other person.  If it proves to be an attack, it is best to try to settle it peacably.  More often than not, people find that they are talking past one another and the issue is resolved.  

If it cannot be resolved by merely pressing ignore, or if it violates the forum rules, then by all means, go to the mods.  Protracted arguements seldom go anywhere productive.

In any case, congrats on passing your baptism of fire.  Kiddie belts is a very hot topic and it is a brave person who steps into it.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

TKD_Father sorry if I took it the wrong way :asian:, I am abig enough person to apologies in front of my peers and other TKD'ers. 

Sometimes one cannot express there self ina way that is becoming of there rank and that is me. I tend to wear my emotion on my sleeve alot of the time. In my area the DFW area there are more TKD school than anything else and the majority are belt factory and that has brought my feeling higher then alot of the time. I have lost alot of student to these so called schools over the years with them promoting them to a higher rank and for them to only come back to me a couple of years later when they have figured out they was jsut buying  a rank. My gaurd is always up there, since I know your GM and I know he is a up standing guy in the TKD community my tone came down somewhat. Termology means alot to me and when it is not done right it upset me a little as you and everyone can tell. I have been on this board as a Mentor, Moderator, Senior Mod and an advisor at one time or another so I to tend to just say stuff and then figure out what I was going to say later. I am hoping and glad you have decided to stay here with the community and be a contribitor, I believe in time you will learn to love this place and thos eof us that are always here. I can see where some of the things I said could be taken the wrong way by someone that really does not know me.

I know we have some of the best people here to answer and help people with the right direction in the art as well as the sport. Hope you can forgive a old fool and a wonderful *Ultimate Post Whore extrememe!!*


----------



## Twin Fist

Gorilla said:


> The thing that we disagree on is that one should not diminish the other.but based on your own statements this is your role on Martial Arts TalkYou do a very good job!!!



the thing is, person might get into TKD to do the sport side of it.

thats fine, not for me, but thats fine.

but the thing is, they shouldnt get rank, not in TKD.

TKD is about self defense

it is not a sport

it is not so little johnny can feel good about himself

it is about the systematic and remorseless destruction of another human being.

everything else is a fringe benefit

the character building? the self control? fringe benefits

and when someone claims their sport "black belt" is the equal to my TKD black belt, i get a little annoyed.

10 year olds? they aint black belts

2 year black belts? they aint black belts

and i aint shy about saying so


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist,
"it is about the systematic and remorseless destruction of another human being".

Maybe this is your tenet and I can respect the way you use it.  I think that this is tenet of a Martial Art which is in fact a Military Art.  It is what TKD can be used for as it is taught in the military (Korea).  

I think that most would agree that your tenet is not widely used!!!!  And would argue that it is not what TKD is about.

I would agree that is your world most kids would have to be trained in your system as I am sure that it is different than most.  I am also sure the you would have to adjust to our training methods.  I can tell you 1 thing for sure we train extremely hard in very demanding conditions (Death Valley type conditions).  It would test the heart of any Human Being.  I have seen some very good self defense black belts attempt to keep up in vain.  The 4 kids that train with us are under 14 black belts and the keep up with the adults in all aspects of training(no quarter is given).  We don't train in a Dojang for the most part we train outside in the conditions.  Rain or Snow-Hot or Cold.


----------



## Twin Fist

sounds like fun

all martial arts are supposed to be killing arts. Anyone that says different is fooling themselves. ALL "martial" arts started out as KILLING ARTS. 

that they can be used for sport is incidental. that isnt the purpose.

the purpose is to kill the other guy before he kills you. Or to leave them so dammaged that they no longer pose a threat.

if you leave that part of the training out, you are not doing martial arts, and should not claim to be a black belt.

I agree that my ideas are not widespread or popular.

i could care less.

I end up building better people, but it is a fringe benefit that comes from building a fighting machine.

I dont train people to be better tourny people. I train people to be able to take out the bad guy


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist,

Agreed!!! All martial arts are Military Arts and therefore at the core a killing art.  In your art the pure Sport TKDist does not fit.  You should not have to make apologies for for your views. I think that they are valid for what you are trying to accomplish.  Many sport TKD people transition to a more self defense orientation as they reach the limits in Sport TKD.  I think you should reconsider your thoughts on the validity of Sport TKD as a different art. I would agree that it is a Sport that originated out of a Martial Art not a Martial Art.

I would also agree that a Black Belt in your World would take considerably more time to achieve the levels that you are looking for.


----------



## TaeKwonDoKevin

*Do you all think my daughter is ready for her Black Belt?*
*The video says it all.........Thanks.............*





 
*-Kevin*


----------



## Tames D

Twin Fist said:


> the thing is, person might get into TKD to do the sport side of it.
> 
> thats fine, not for me, but thats fine.
> 
> but the thing is, they shouldnt get rank, not in TKD.
> 
> TKD is about self defense
> 
> it is not a sport
> 
> it is not so little johnny can feel good about himself
> 
> it is about the systematic and remorseless destruction of another human being.
> 
> everything else is a fringe benefit
> 
> the character building? the self control? fringe benefits
> 
> and when someone claims their sport "black belt" is the equal to my TKD black belt, i get a little annoyed.
> 
> 10 year olds? they aint black belts
> 
> 2 year black belts? they aint black belts
> 
> and i aint shy about saying so


 
I understand your frustration. I truly believe that the sport version of Tae Kwon Do should be called by another name alltogether, totally separating it from combat TKD. 
This should have been done when it became an Olympic event.


----------



## ATC

TKD_Father said:


> I'd absolutely love to participate with my son!
> 
> In my case, I blew out my knee playing racquetball in the Military. It's never been the same. Arthroscopic + rehab - flexibility - ability to straighten, does not equal TKD.


I did the exact same thing. Racquetball and blew out the knee, then blew out the other knee playing softball of all things. Still I decided to start training again and even though the knees ache from time to time I still love it.

So no excuse TKD_Father, get on the mat and start training with your son. You will love it. Just take it easy on the jumping and spining stuff and you will be fine. You will actually help make the knee stronger.


----------



## ATC

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> *Do you all think my daughter is ready for her Black Belt?*
> *The video says it all.........Thanks.............*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *-Kevin*


Oh my...what form. I say she is a 2nd poom. To cute!


----------



## shesulsa

If martial arts is going to be restricted to instruction in the killing arts, then children should not be taught period and access to this kind of instruction should be restricted to those in military service, law enforcement and the agencies involved in special operations.

And if we're going to apply that rule, then football shouldn't be open to everyone, only those who are talented enough and fully intend to go pro. Same with all other sports.

Art should be limited to the truly obviously talented and original ... illustrators would have no place in art college.

Gimme a break.  

Look ... train who you want to train for the purpose you see fit ... but don't tell me whether I can or cannot teach because my general purpose is different than yours.

I will agree that if you train others in martial sports, then be honest that it is martial sports. If you train a community program for personal development and self betterment and enrichment than be honest that it is a belt-ranking system pointed towards personal achievement.

And if you're going to train people to kill ... then only teach legal adults and leave the children at home.


----------



## Bones

Ok, I sit here before you trying to get my ying and yang in balance with a sapporo.  What have i learned....School x is the only one capable of producing true black belts, as they specialize in MDK, full contact, no hold back training and the right physiological age.  Hmmm.

Credentials.  Never mind that belt colors are purely symbolic and made up.  I know, you got your belt through blah, blah, blah.  I have seen and heard enough "old school gm" types or to have heard of them to know that you are not being taught super secret knowledge that no one else has studied or envisioned.  I also know and realize that the belt has not somehow bestowed upon you nobility, wisdom or some super hero power.  You needn't go far to hear about some story of GM abuse, corruption or what have you.  Martial arts did not teach me to be a better person...strangely my parents had a hand in that and as i grew into adulthood i made some good and bad choices but i can't say that i ever sat with a life problem thinking about what my instructor would have me do.  I dare say that there are some kids who have more sense than some adults so, once again, age requirements and poom/dan are just artificial markers which are general and do not hold true for all.  Remember, you can be a poom one day and submit your fee to be a black belt when you pass that magic age.  granted the KKW website lists the fee in korean currency so you would have to figure out the conversion but again, some adults might be challenged in doing that.

Please understand, i am not diminishing what a "black belt" or an instructor can do or does.  The reality is that if you know what you are doing, you can make it look easy.  Never mind the years of study and practice to get there.  Are you able to convey your knowledge and ability...that varies.  Again, simply being older does not make you able.  the reality is though, that the student may not be able to take the "teacher" seriously if he is too young or looks it but again, that speaks less of the teacher and more of the student.

I have a friend who does gung fu and for his system, they don't use belts for rank, etc.  After his years of being in the martials arts realm, he has found that some use the belt symbol to beat their chests about how great they are or as a convenient marketing ploy for their dojang and their belt mill.  I learned a long time ago that whether they are a colored belt or a black to the nth degree it means nothing.  the proof is in the pudding.  what can they teach, how well can they teach it, how well can they do it, etc.  I have seen some pretty amazing low belts that could teach some people a thing or two...or, quite frankly, should be admired for their plain ability.

Regarding training hard, not holding back, etc.  Please.  Unless your students are maimed or called left eye, for a reason, everyone is holding back in their school.  In simplest terms it is all a sport because you have limits, rules, your holding back, you are working within a framework (holding back because they are young, old, a low belt, your friend, etc).  This would hold true whether you are a white or a black belt.  To not acknowledge this i would have to say your belt is on too tight.  The reality is, if no one ever held back and your students could deal with it, take it, dish it back with no real long term injury, then they don't need you and you are not teaching anything of value.  The flip side is that maybe despite your own beliefs, your training is really not that hard or as demanding as you would like to think if your students are not maimed, as would tend to happen with a no holds barred approach.

Regarding competition.  Do i sit and practice with bob, whose moves i can predict because i have done whatever drill with him a 1000 times or do i move into the realm of the unknown with a new partner.  For me, you can sit in your own school, proclaim that you don't compete because its for wussies -- which may be your belief and possibly true.  You know what though, i may want to take this car out for a spin and see if its a ferrari (like my instructor tells me) or a ford focus.   I really don't see why you can't do both.  I can't tell you how many times i have seen people practice in theory and thought wow, only to see these same people choke or be unable to pull it off in a competition.  To me, you can say what you want but a competion is a controlled environment and if you cannot pull it off there, all your chest banging about being a true black belt is for nothing.  You may have then sold someone a false sense of security.

Regarding ability.  I have seen some really sad black belts through the years.  People who can't kick a ball, let alone someone, to save their life.  However, when you see true ability, with speed and power that few could contend with.  To see that in a competition is truely spectacular.  That is a chess game with a true athelete and ability.  I would speculate that many who consider themselves true black belts would probably not survive the cardio demands of sparring one competitor for the required rounds, let alone going up the brackets to a possible gold.  Cardio aside, when you see some real ability, i would also guess that many true black belts on this forum as readers or posters would be knocked out before their egos could stop or counter the blow.  Yes, i know, you could have been in the olympics, MMA or whatever but you were teaching that night.

What is it about martial arts that makes a lot of people think that they are the true ones, the chosen ones, the only real ones.  You know, if we were talking about anything else...say higher education in english, mathematics, physics many of these same chest beating types would be easily rocked out of their delusions.  The difference here is that there are different teachers, different organizations (wtf, itf) and the ability for every yahoo to proclaim himself as a martial arts messiah or having learned from the one true messiah.  If you were involved in any other field or hobby, many of these same messiahs would just be that wacky neighbor bob that no one talks to and has not otherwise distinguished himself from the hundreds or millions in his city.

With that said, my name is bones and i am a tkd addict.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> the thing is, person might get into TKD to do the sport side of it.
> 
> thats fine, not for me, but thats fine.
> 
> but the thing is, they shouldnt get rank, not in TKD.
> 
> TKD is about self defense
> 
> it is not a sport


 
No..TKD emcompasses all aspects of martial arts including sport.  Now someone may choose to focus solely on the sport aspect of TKD and find the forms and other areas a neccessary evil to achieve what they want out of TKD.  Not everyone joins for just self defense.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> sounds like fun
> 
> all martial arts are supposed to be killing arts. Anyone that says different is fooling themselves. ALL "martial" arts started out as KILLING ARTS.


 
Actually not true.  Shaolin arts began as breathing exercises and yoga, which evolved into fighgting.  Those fighting arts were used as a defense only system from the monks and killing was only the last resort.


----------



## just2kicku

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> *Do you all think my daughter is ready for her Black Belt?*
> *The video says it all.........Thanks.............*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *-Kevin*



I say she's ready........cute kid!


----------



## Twin Fist

sport only means you aint learning a martial art.

self defense only means you aint learning a sport

there is a LOT of middle ground and most schools are somewhere in between

i have no interest in or respect for sport only schools.


----------



## jks9199

miguksaram said:


> Actually not true.  Shaolin arts began as breathing exercises and yoga, which evolved into fighgting.  Those fighting arts were used as a defense only system from the monks and killing was only the last resort.


Not exactly accurate.

My understanding is that the temples were sanctuaries for lots of people... including soldiers and generals who had fallen out of favor.  By going to the monastery or temple, they stepped off the public stage...  Thus, there were often lots of people there with real fighting experience and knowledge.  If there's any truth to the myth about breathing exercises being introduced with Buddhism, they probably were more of a yoga than martial arts, and may have contributed to the internal side of the Chinese martial arts.


----------



## shesulsa

Twin Fist said:


> i have no interest in or respect for sport only schools.



You don't seem to have a lot of respect for anything other than that which YOU find valuable ... which means you "ain't" a martial artist.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> the thing is, person might get into TKD to do the sport side of it.
> 
> thats fine, not for me, but thats fine.
> 
> but the thing is, they shouldnt get rank, not in TKD.


If they are in it for sport and do nothing but compete, then I agree. 

If they meet the full organizational requirements for whatever rank they hold (proficiency in forms, whatever SD curriculum is taught, etc.) then I have no problem with them holding the rank. 

If the school is promoting people who do not meet the requirements for the rank just because of tournament participation, then I *do* have a problem with *that*.

As an aside, I recall hearing somewhere that some early on had wanted to call the sport side of it Tae Soo Do, but that was ultimately not done.



Twin Fist said:


> TKD is about self defense
> 
> it is not a sport
> 
> it is not so little johnny can feel good about himself
> 
> it is about the systematic and remorseless destruction of another human being.
> 
> everything else is a fringe benefit
> 
> the character building? the self control? fringe benefits


To be fair, the Kukkiwon structured and promoted taekwondo as a martial sport very strongly, so certainly there is room for that definition, though as long as one is calling what they do taekwondo, they should have self defense at the core. 

I will disagree about the character building. Taekwondo is a 'do', as opposed to a jutsu or a bup (I believe that that is the Korean equivalent of 'jutsu'). As such, personal developement is a core part of the art.



Twin Fist said:


> and when someone claims their sport "black belt" is the equal to my TKD black belt, i get a little annoyed.


This comes down to people not understanding that rank only has substantive meaning within the school where it was issued. And equal can be a relative term as well. It may be "equal" in that the person may have worked just as hard to get his or her first dan and may be as superb in the ring as you are in SD. Thus they are quantitatively equal, but not qualitatively equal.



Twin Fist said:


> 10 year olds? they aint black belts


I feel that it is a disservice to put a black belt on a 'tween or a child, and even some young teens. Yes, there are exceptions, but 99% the student is being shortchanged. Also, even with the broadening and undermining of what a black belt traditionally represents, in the back of everyone's mind, a black belt is supposed to be able to fight. That includes the wearers of kiddie belts. When a young kid who has a black belt advertises it at school and then finds that he still is getting pounded by the bullies, all of the self confidence that was built up in the dojo is gone and the kid is even less confident than before. Not to mention the outrageous amount of money that most commercial schools ask for a blackbelt testing.

Self confidence and character building are best done with colored belts and patches. 



Twin Fist said:


> 2 year black belts? they aint black belts


I tend to not want to generalize in that. I would rather see it broken down into study hours rather than years. If I go to class once a week and not practice outside of class for four years, I still go less than a guy who goes to class three times a week and practices between classes for two years.

Also, the curriculum at different schools varies enough that I am hesitant to make a judgement bases exclusively on years. If a school teaches only the base Kukkiwon curriculum, for example, two years is pretty ample if the student is practicing and going to class three times a week. 

That would not make them equal in quality _or _quantity to a school like your own or Miguksaram's; that would make them a black belt in their own school by virtue of having learned and become proficient in the curriculum *of that school*.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> No..TKD emcompasses all aspects of martial arts including sport. Now someone may choose to focus solely on the sport aspect of TKD and find the forms and other areas a neccessary evil to achieve what they want out of TKD. Not everyone joins for just self defense.


So long as they follow the full curriculum and are proficent in it, I see no problem with them holding rank.

*But*

if the school trains in nothing _other_ than sport, then it is a bit like a car built entirely for drag racing (I am talking rails and funny cars, not hot rodded street cars).  

Such a car is useless off of the dragstrip, and cannot be used competatively on any race track *other* than the dragstrip.  Such a car will lose to any other car if the race has any turns after the first quarter mile.  Such a car cannot be "ranked" as a sports car and is not effective on the street.  It is very effective at *one* thing only.  

Now, there is nothing wrong with drag racing.  Nothing wrong with sport taekwondo or sport karate.  But if you train for nothing other than to win competitions, you are not getting the whole of the art and, in my opinion, should not be ranked as if you are.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

Well Well Well, we have taken that turn for the worst in TKD. The sport versus the actual Art. What can be said but this the sport has alot of valueable aspect to it that traditional TKD does not, Traditional TKD has alot of value that the sport will never have. If I was to put a true sport competitor on the matt with a traditionalist TKD person they will fall harder than a brick off a ten story building, but if I take a traditionalist TKD person and put him in the ring with a sport person with the rules of engagement they will even fall harder.

What does these means to us one is no better than the other in there enviroment, but if I can teach the sport person how to defend on the ground and how to use there hands they can become jst as deadly as all others. On the other side of the coin if I take a tradionalist TKD and tought him the rules and how to fight inside a square ring he would still get his *** handed to them. One that has been a traditionalist person cannot and should not learn the game, but the one that has learn the game first can and should be able to adapt to a real SD type stituation when probaly tought.


Since I teach both I know the sport can be and will adapt, but the SD person will never be able to play tag with kicks and never use there hands. Just an observation I have made over the years. I know some traditionalist peole have crossed over but to be honest they where in the sport of Karate and Kung Fu so it was just redirecting the rules.


----------



## Jphtkd

This thread is epic... 

Taekwondo is the best style ever and can defeat all others. Discuss.


----------



## TKD_Father

Jphtkd said:


> This thread is epic...



What did these guys talk about before I showed up? You really have to go back a ways to find anything close to this many replies.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> What did these guys talk about before I showed up? You really have to go back a ways to find anything close to this many replies.


I told you that this is a hot topic.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Jphtkd said:


> This thread is epic...
> 
> Taekwondo is the best style ever and can defeat all others. Discuss.


Taekwondo is like Starbucks: there is a school on every corner so nobody else can get into the game.  TKD wins.

Daniel


----------



## Jphtkd

TKD_Father said:


> What did these guys talk about before I showed up? You really have to go back a ways to find anything close to this many replies.




That is because all of these topics have been beaten to death several times. All the big ones were touched upon without having to open more than one browser screen lol.


----------



## Jphtkd

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Taekwondo is like Starbucks: there is a school on every corner so nobody else can get into the game.  TKD wins.
> 
> Daniel



At least with starbucks you know that you are getting the same quality as every other store...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Jphtkd said:


> At least with starbucks you know that you are getting the same quality as every other store...


Yes.  Low.  Of course I am a coffee snob, lol.

Daniel


----------



## Jphtkd

When I lived in California I went to starbucks, but I moved to Fl. a year ago and switched to Dunkin Donuts coffee. I say we hijack this thread Billy the kid style and discuss different coffee brands. Go.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Caribou Coffee's Kenya AA.  Light roast, high kick, and a taste to please the snob in me.  It also doubled in price due to armed conflict in Kenya.

Daniel


----------



## jim777

If you buy the Starbucks beans and grind/brew it at home yourself, it is FAR better than what you get in the stores. I would hate to give up my Starbucks French Roast, I've had it every day since...maybe '98? 2 pound bags at Costco for the win


----------



## mwd0818

Costco is good . . .

Anyone around Louisville, KY I can tell you where the best cappuccinos outside of Europe are . . . 

And if you need a helping of 7 year old Black Belts in TKD, I can point you in that direction too . . . 

(Just keeping it relevant . . . )


----------



## Twin Fist

shesulsa said:


> You don't seem to have a lot of respect for anything other than that which YOU find valuable ... which means you "ain't" a martial artist.




no Georgia, i have no respect for dishonesty

claiming someone that only learns sport is the equal to someone that learns SD is dishonest

a sport school BB is NOT equal to a real school BB

now  a school that teaches both, i have no problem with.


----------



## terryl965

Here is something to think about, when I started to teach sport TKD it was hard as hell because my school was about S.D. for the first 4-5 year we got so mnay penalty for kicking to hard and punching in the head, I remember the Junior safety rules. We used to get dis-qualified for hitting to hard in the head or body it got so bad one year I told all my players if you get dis-qualified for kicking to hard I would come home and make six foot tall trophies, that year I made seven of them.

What this does is let everyone know here that the sport is hard for us traditional guys and it players, I tell all my parent even though we teach sport for the kids wanting it, we rely on S.D, type principle first and foremost. We do take the time to seperate the classes for those really wanting sport but we make sure they understand it is a game and not for real life self Defense.


----------



## ATC

terryl965 said:


> Here is something to think about, when I started to teach sport TKD it was hard as hell because my school was about S.D. for the first 4-5 year we got so mnay penalty for kicking to hard and punching in the head, I remember the Junior safety rules. We used to get dis-qualified for hitting to hard in the head or body it got so bad one year I told all my players if you get dis-qualified for kicking to hard I would come home and make six foot tall trophies, that year I made seven of them.
> 
> What this does is let everyone know here that the sport is hard for us traditional guys and it players, I tell all my parent even though we teach sport for the kids wanting it, we rely on S.D, type principle first and foremost. We do take the time to seperate the classes for those really wanting sport but we make sure they understand it is a game and not for real life self Defense.


Funny you say that Terry. I tell my kids all the time that it is OK to lose, just make sure the other person can't fight the next match. They do not penalize for hard hits to the body anymore, only the head (Jr. Safety rules).

One time my son was getting cheated (points not being awarded) so I told him to knock his competitor out. I said let him try to explain his win by getting KO'd. My son did not KO him but the kid left the match pretty beat up.


----------



## Gorilla

Lots of opinions about Youth Black Belts...What did I come away with!!! A Black Belt is in the eye of the beholder.  We are all quick to judge others and never really look at ourselves in the mirror.  Self Defense and Sport are two different things both with merits!!! When someone says "never" in matters such as these they are usually wrong.  There always the exception the prodigy. Finally most parents think the their kids are the exception the prodigy and like the guy who says "never" they are usually wrong.  I hope that everyone enjoyed this thread as much as I did.

Gorilla TKD Addict


----------



## mango.man

Don't forget that you also came away with some tips on where to get some decent coffee


----------



## terryl965

Gorilla I believe this was a productive thread and I for one thank you for starting it. We will all have a different views about whhat is and what is not, but the one thing we can all agree upon is we are all linked together with the common thread of TKD. I love all my brothers and sisters of this fine art and sport.


----------



## Twin Fist

i like pie


----------



## cmassman

Gorilla said:


> Lots of opinions about Youth Black Belts...What did I come away with!!! A Black Belt is in the eye of the beholder. We are all quick to judge others and never really look at ourselves in the mirror. Self Defense and Sport are two different things both with merits!!! When someone says "never" in matters such as these they are usually wrong. There always the exception the prodigy. Finally most parents think the their kids are the exception the prodigy and like the guy who says "never" they are usually wrong. I hope that everyone enjoyed this thread as much as I did.
> 
> Gorilla TKD Addict


 
Very well said.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Accidenally hit the button before I was finished typing and did not realize it.  Oops.  I have not had my coffee yet.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mwd0818 said:


> Costco is good . . .
> 
> Anyone around Louisville, KY I can tell you where the best cappuccinos outside of Europe are . . .
> 
> And if you need a helping of 7 year old Black Belts in TKD, I can point you in that direction too . . .
> 
> (Just keeping it relevant . . . )


Avoid McDonald's imitation Starbucks drinks if you can. Now, if the McDojo really wants to be family friendly, they should have a coffee shoppe built in. Us working professionals would feel right at home.

As far as store bought coffee goes, I find Melita is very consistently good.  With a shot of Jamison, it is even better!

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> Lots of opinions about Youth Black Belts...What did I come away with!!! A Black Belt is in the eye of the beholder. We are all quick to judge others and never really look at ourselves in the mirror. Self Defense and Sport are two different things both with merits!!!


Nobody here disputes that.  But one should not be awarded a BB for sports training alone.  I think that USAT would do very well to look at how fencers are rated.  They rate them as U (unrated) or E-A, A being the best and E being the least.  Those ratings go up and down based on competition record, frequency, and who you compete against.  An undefeated record against e-rated fencers, for example, will not get you an a-rating.  



Gorilla said:


> When someone says "never" in matters such as these they are usually wrong. There always the exception the prodigy. Finally most parents think the their kids are the exception the prodigy and like the guy who says "never" they are usually wrong.


The difference is that the guy or gal who says "never" is usually speaking in hyperbole: "you *never* see Datsuns on the road anymore" means that the car are rare, so you generally will not see them.  But I do see them once in a while.

On the other hand, the parents who think that their kids are prodigies are not speaking in hyperbole. Their are plenty of parents who really *do* believe that their kid who flails about wildly in some attempt at Koryo is flawlessly performing it.  Most often, this is a combination of being blinded by parental pride and not knowing what they are looking at.

No, not all, or even most, kids flail about, but I have seen kiddie black belts that do, and they often have parents attached to them who extole the expertise of their child.

And it is a rare, rare child indeed who can effectively defend themselves against an adult attacker, something that is traditionally associated with holding a black belt.  Often, mom and dad really believe that their eight year old *can* defend themselves against an adult attacker.  

And this is why I feel that giving them black belts is a disservice; it instills a false confidence.  

Note, that I do *not* feel that it is the _child_ who is undeserving; nine times out of ten, sport/competition not withstanding, the child is simply not physically ready the level of training that is traditionally associated with the holder of a black belt.

As for kids who excel in sport TKD and hold rank in a sport only school, I would like to see the WTF come up with a sport belt that denotes that yes, the student is a BB, but it is in sport TKD, not traditional TKD.  That would eliminate the sport aspect of this discussion, which in all honestly, is really a separate discussion.

Daniel


----------



## NPTKD

I tested him yesterday! Then he took a nap! LOL....


----------



## artFling

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And it is a rare, rare child indeed who can effectively defend themselves against an adult attacker, something that is traditionally associated with holding a black belt.  Often, mom and dad really believe that their eight year old *can* defend themselves against an adult attacker.
> 
> And this is why I feel that giving them black belts is a disservice; it instills a false confidence.
> 
> Daniel



I agree with all that you say here and well said it is, yet I would like to add a note here.  It's true that kiddie black belts are not really black belts.  In fact, I've met older teens who earned their bb at a young age, who are no longer practicing, and they poo-poo the idea that they actually know anything.  And rightly so.  

On the other hand, when children actually get attacked, dragged into a car, etc, the thing that gets them dead is that they don't fight back.  Even the untrained child who will fight back, who will bite, claw, punch, kick and scream, has a much greater chance of surviving.  The vast majority, just sit there and let it happen, with no struggle.  The fighters more often come out alive.  In this scenario, even a sport trained martial artist and even an underbelt, has an even greater chance of survival than the untrained child, IF THEY WILL FIGHT.  Most bad guys want an easy victim, not one who is going to punch them in the throat and kick them in the groin.  And even a "lowly" gold belted child can do these things.


----------



## TaeKwonDoKevin

I have PERSONALLY witnessed 7-10 year old Black Belts that seemed they had NO clue. NOTHING there that looked like Black Belt material, NOTHING. They attend their own tournaments, so the kids have trophies.....Hey they gotta be good RIGHT? I know of a school that has produced MANY of these kids. EVERY PARENT that I have spoke to said, "and he/she work so hard for it". Perhaps they worked hard compared to playing video games, but it's NOT about hard work only. If the parents of these kids visit my class, they get funny looks on their faces. Before they leave they say, we will be back when our contract is up at Ninja Turtles McBelt Factory. They DO come back. Another sad part is, these parents are paying TOP $$$ for these so called classes.


----------



## jks9199

artFling said:


> I agree with all that you say here and well said it is, yet I would like to add a note here. It's true that kiddie black belts are not really black belts. In fact, I've met older teens who earned their bb at a young age, who are no longer practicing, and they poo-poo the idea that they actually know anything. And rightly so.
> 
> On the other hand, when children actually get attacked, dragged into a car, etc, the thing that gets them dead is that they don't fight back. Even the untrained child who will fight back, who will bite, claw, punch, kick and scream, has a much greater chance of surviving. The vast majority, just sit there and let it happen, with no struggle. The fighters more often come out alive. In this scenario, even a sport trained martial artist and even an underbelt, has an even greater chance of survival than the untrained child, IF THEY WILL FIGHT. Most bad guys want an easy victim, not one who is going to punch them in the throat and kick them in the groin. And even a "lowly" gold belted child can do these things.


You have a valid point -- but it's not that easy.

Stranger abductions or even attacks (of any sort) on children are rather uncommon.  And when they do occur, they often use any of a number of ruses or gambits to manipulate the kid.  It's not even often as blatant as "little child, want some candy?"  Kids need to be taught the realities of attacks on children, not to fear the "stranger" who is all too often a mythical creature about as real as a unicorn to a kid.  Try it sometime; ask a kid (5 to 9 yoa) what a "stranger" is.  You very possibly will find the answer enlightening and scary.


----------



## mwd0818

artFling said:


> I agree with all that you say here and well said it is, yet I would like to add a note here.  It's true that kiddie black belts are not really black belts.  In fact, I've met older teens who earned their bb at a young age, who are no longer practicing, and they poo-poo the idea that they actually know anything.  And rightly so.
> 
> On the other hand, when children actually get attacked, dragged into a car, etc, the thing that gets them dead is that they don't fight back.  Even the untrained child who will fight back, who will bite, claw, punch, kick and scream, has a much greater chance of surviving.  The vast majority, just sit there and let it happen, with no struggle.  The fighters more often come out alive.  In this scenario, even a sport trained martial artist and even an underbelt, has an even greater chance of survival than the untrained child, IF THEY WILL FIGHT.  Most bad guys want an easy victim, not one who is going to punch them in the throat and kick them in the groin.  And even a "lowly" gold belted child can do these things.



Funny enough . . . I tell everyone when talking about self-defense the same thing.  You fight back, even untrained, you increase your odds of survival significantly.  It's the complacency that in most cases causes issues.  It's not 100%, but nothing is . . .  Doesn't matter if your 7, 70, male, female, or child . . .


----------



## Carol

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Nobody here disputes that.  But one should not be awarded a BB for sports training alone.  I think that USAT would do very well to look at how fencers are rated.  They rate them as U (unrated) or E-A, A being the best and E being the least.  Those ratings go up and down based on competition record, frequency, and who you compete against.  An undefeated record against e-rated fencers, for example, will not get you an a-rating.



I actually think the opposite.  I thnk we should reserve black belts (and other coloured belts) specifically for sports training.

Why? 

Tradition.  The Kyu/Dan system (which Korea adapted as the Gup/Dan system) originated in Tokugawan Japan as a ranking system for the game of Go.  A beginning student would need to climb through 10 kyu (gradations) before they level up (literally!) to shodan.

In the late 1800s, Jigero Kano invented Judo, and referred to his top two students as "shodan" (lit. 'first level').  In the early 1900s, the yudansha (dan ranked) started wearing black belts, Kano then borrowed the Kyu ranks as well from Go and added first white and then colored belts for his mudansha (not dan ranked) students and *poof* the belt system was born.

Judo is a competitive sport.  There absolutely are self defense applications to Judo but it is a sport.  It makes sense that a _sport_ adopted the ranking system from a competitive _game_.

Since then, there have been other martial arts systems that have adopted the belt system, based on Kano's success.  But if you are not training to compete, then why use a rank system that the Japanese invented for a game?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Carol Kaur said:


> I actually think the opposite. I thnk we should reserve black belts (and other coloured belts) specifically for sports training.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Tradition. The Kyu/Dan system (which Korea adapted as the Gup/Dan system) originated in Tokugawan Japan as a ranking system for the game of Go. A beginning student would need to climb through 10 kyu (gradations) before they level up (literally!) to shodan.
> 
> In the late 1800s, Jigero Kano invented Judo, and referred to his top two students as "shodan" (lit. 'first level'). In the early 1900s, the yudansha (dan ranked) started wearing black belts, Kano then borrowed the Kyu ranks as well from Go and added first white and then colored belts for his mudansha (not dan ranked) students and *poof* the belt system was born.
> 
> Judo is a competitive sport. There absolutely are self defense applications to Judo but it is a sport. It makes sense that a _sport_ adopted the ranking system from a competitive _game_.
> 
> Since then, there have been other martial arts systems that have adopted the belt system, based on Kano's success. But if you are not training to compete, then why use a rank system that the Japanese invented for a game?


I do not agree that the BB should be reserved for sport, but I think that your post is excellent, and your background on the belt system is spot on!

Daniel


----------



## Gorilla

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I do not agree that the BB should be reserved for sport, but I think that your post is excellent, and your background on the belt system is spot on!
> 
> Daniel



Based on the theme of this thread and the input that we have gotten so far and your statement that TKD Practitionors that use the word "never" in regards to youth BLack Belts as hyperbole. Under what circumstance do you believe a Black Belt should be awarded to a Martial Artist under 10.


----------



## Twin Fist

for me, sinc ei dont take students under age 8, the answer is never to a 10 year old.





Gorilla said:


> Based on the theme of this thread and the input that we have gotten so far and your statement that TKD Practitionors that use the word "never" in regards to youth BLack Belts as hyperbole. Under what circumstance do you believe a Black Belt should be awarded to a Martial Artist under 10.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> Based on the theme of this thread and the input that we have gotten so far and your statement that TKD Practitionors that use the word "never" in regards to youth BLack Belts as hyperbole.


That is not what I was getting at. As my previous post was on the last page, here is what I said:



Daniel Sullivan said:


> The difference is that the guy or gal who says "never" is usually speaking in hyperbole: "you *never* see Datsuns on the road anymore" means that the car are rare, so you generally will not see them. But I do see them once in a while.
> 
> On the other hand, the parents who think that their kids are prodigies are not speaking in hyperbole. Their are plenty of parents who really *do* believe that their kid who flails about wildly in some attempt at Koryo is flawlessly performing it. Most often, this is a combination of being blinded by parental pride and not knowing what they are looking at.


 
My point was that while most *usually* use the term hyperbolically with the unspoken understanding that their are exceptions, the parents of such kids *usually* think that their kid *is* the exception.

I am *not* talking about parents of kids who train at a sport only school and who's kids have documented competition records that demonstrate that they are superior for their age, size, and rank. 

I *am* talking about the millions of kids in what amounts to karate daycare centers who never compete, often look like they are just flailing around in the general direction of the form, and who is no better equipped to defend themselves than they were before the class and who do not behave any better than they did before they took the class.



Gorilla said:


> Under what circumstance do you believe a Black Belt should be awarded to a Martial Artist under 10.


 
This is my opinion regarding black belt standards for ten and under.

*1.* Crisp performance of each form with power and snap.
*2.* Ability to perform the techniques of the curriculum with power and snap, both solo, in step sparring, and in free sparring (to the extent that the sparring rules allow).
*3.* Mature enough that you would think that the kid is at least fifteen in the dojo.
*4.* The ability to "defend themselves" against an adult attacker. I do not mean the ability to beat an adult attacker. But to use their techniques in a way so as to escape or ward off an adult attacker. This should be demonstrated with an adult student or instructor standing in as the adult attacker and not just giving it up for the kid.
*5.* The ability to transmit technique to an underbelt of any age. I do not mean take the class by themselves. But if I go into a school as a white belt at age 42, a ten year old black belt should be able to demonstrate a turning kick, break down how to properly perform it, and tell me if I am doing it correctly, as well as give me pointers as to how to improve it.
*6.* Be able to spar at an adult black belt level in terms of execution when sparring kids their own age and should be able to at least handle themselves in sparring with an adult black belt student.
*7.* For breaking requirements, they need to break the same number and thickness of boards that the adult black belts do.

If that were the standard, there would be no need for a separate poom rank.  Numbers four through seven would eliminate all but the most exceptional child.  

All of the character and confidence building stuff can be done with patches and colored stripes on colored belts, and of course, good training for the students to help them succeed, an often overlooked element.

I have already addressed the fact that different schools have different requirements in previous posts. The above are the standards that I would adhere to if I owned the school.

Daniel


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> for me, sinc ei dont take students under age 8, the answer is never to a 10 year old.



Funny!!! I thought that Daniel's assumption that Masters who use "NEVER" in this regard are using Hyperbole did not apply in your case.  What if an 8 year old walked in your Dojang with a BB(Poom) what criteria would you judge him and what would you do if he met those criteria?  I very interested in your thoughts...


----------



## Twin Fist

ok, lets play what if.

say a 10 year old walks into my place and claims a poom rank

he is gonna have to show me his stuff.

thats goes one of two ways:

1) he is bruce lee jr. in that case, we wears a plain BB till he learns my system and tests for Jr BB, then gets a DAN belt at 16

2) he sucks like every other 10 yr old BB i have ever seen, in that case, he can put on a white belt. Like everyone else.


----------



## Gorilla

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That is not what I was getting at. As my previous post was on the last page, here is what I said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point was that while most *usually* use the term hyperbolically with the unspoken understanding that their are exceptions, the parents of such kids *usually* think that their kid *is* the exception.
> 
> I am *not* talking about parents of kids who train at a sport only school and who's kids have documented competition records that demonstrate that they are superior for their age, size, and rank.
> 
> I *am* talking about the millions of kids in what amounts to karate daycare centers who never compete, often look like they are just flailing around in the general direction of the form, and who is no better equipped to defend themselves than they were before the class and who do not behave any better than they did before they took the class.
> 
> 
> 
> This is my opinion regarding black belt standards for ten and under.
> 
> *1.* Crisp performance of each form with power and snap.
> *2.* Ability to perform the techniques of the curriculum with power and snap, both solo, in step sparring, and in free sparring (to the extent that the sparring rules allow).
> *3.* Mature enough that you would think that the kid is at least fifteen in the dojo.
> *4.* The ability to "defend themselves" against an adult attacker. I do not mean the ability to beat an adult attacker. But to use their techniques in a way so as to escape or ward off an adult attacker. This should be demonstrated with an adult student or instructor standing in as the adult attacker and not just giving it up for the kid.
> *5.* The ability to transmit technique to an underbelt of any age. I do not mean take the class by themselves. But if I go into a school as a white belt at age 42, a ten year old black belt should be able to demonstrate a turning kick, break down how to properly perform it, and tell me if I am doing it correctly, as well as give me pointers as to how to improve it.
> *6.* Be able to spar at an adult black belt level in terms of execution when sparring kids their own age and should be able to at least handle themselves in sparring with an adult black belt student.
> *7.* For breaking requirements, they need to break the same number and thickness of boards that the adult black belts do.
> 
> If that were the standard, there would be no need for a separate poom rank.  Numbers four through seven would eliminate all but the most exceptional child.
> 
> All of the character and confidence building stuff can be done with patches and colored stripes on colored belts, and of course, good training for the students to help them succeed, an often overlooked element.
> 
> I have already addressed the fact that different schools have different requirements in previous posts. The above are the standards that I would adhere to if I owned the school.
> 
> Daniel



That is the best set of standards that I have seen...


----------



## ATC

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is my opinion regarding black belt standards for ten and under.
> 
> *1.* Crisp performance of each form with power and snap.
> *2.* Ability to perform the techniques of the curriculum with power and snap, both solo, in step sparring, and in free sparring (to the extent that the sparring rules allow).
> *3.* Mature enough that you would think that the kid is at least fifteen in the dojo.
> *4.* The ability to "defend themselves" against an adult attacker. I do not mean the ability to beat an adult attacker. But to use their techniques in a way so as to escape or ward off an adult attacker. This should be demonstrated with an adult student or instructor standing in as the adult attacker and not just giving it up for the kid.
> *5.* The ability to transmit technique to an underbelt of any age. I do not mean take the class by themselves. But if I go into a school as a white belt at age 42, a ten year old black belt should be able to demonstrate a turning kick, break down how to properly perform it, and tell me if I am doing it correctly, as well as give me pointers as to how to improve it.
> *6.* Be able to spar at an adult black belt level in terms of execution when sparring kids their own age and should be able to at least handle themselves in sparring with an adult black belt student.
> *7.* For breaking requirements, they need to break the same number and thickness of boards that the adult black belts do.
> Daniel


We have 3 (well two are 11) at our school alone that meet these requirements. And they are all pooms at this time.

I can also tell you that many of the adults hated testing with them, as they made most of the adults look really bad as far as techniques were concerned.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> Funny!!! I thought that Daniel's assumption that Masters who use "NEVER" in this regard are using Hyperbole did not apply in your case.


Certainly, T/F would be an exception here, but I was not speaking of masters who use never; just the use of the term in general, both by masters and non masters alike.

Hyperbolic use of the term never differs from policy of never.  I feel that I can safely say that Twin Fist will never promote a child of ten or under to black belt.  

On the other hand I would not categorically say that a ten year old in general can never be a "true" black belt, which is, I think, what some have said and what got the discussion moving in this direction.

Then of course, there is the question of what _defines_ a true black belt.  I would gather that this differs from person to person and from school to school.  I have already stated my own definition, which is hinged entirely on a specific level of proficiency.

Some people use a relative scale of personal improvement.  This is how many schools award rank, thus a handicapped student who trains hard may not have the same physical ability as a non-handicapped student, but he or she has put in the work and can execute the techniques to the very best of his or her ability.  Or a child student who may not be able to execute at an adult level, but who has trained hard and does the very best that they possibly can do.

I think that my main issue with child BB's is that it really is not appropriate to put a child through an adult test due to vulnerabilities that a growing child's body has that an adult's does not.  There are similar cautions regarding certain levels of weight training and children below a certain age.  The main issue is to avoid injury to the child until the skeletal structure is sound.

Daniel


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> ok, lets play what if.
> 
> say a 10 year old walks into my place and claims a poom rank
> 
> he is gonna have to show me his stuff.
> 
> thats goes one of two ways:
> 
> 1) he is bruce lee jr. in that case, we wears a plain BB till he learns my system and tests for Jr BB, then gets a DAN belt at 16
> 
> 2) he sucks like every other 10 yr old BB i have ever seen, in that case, he can put on a white belt. Like everyone else.



Twin Fist,

Describe the standards that he/she would have to meet to be considered Bruce Lee Jr.  I am very interested in you thoughts not just some dismissive retort.  I am sure that you have some insight that will be of value to this forum.  Thats why I started this thread to learn from everyone.


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel,
let me be clear. I will NEVER promote a 10 yr old to a DAN rank.

a jr BB? maybe, but i cant see it happening. From what I have seen, it would only happen if they came in with a TON of GOOD training already. a more likely age would be 12-14 for a JR BB



i will NEVER promote under 16 to DAN rank. 

that isnt hyperbole. it is a FACT

a Jr BB certainly, if they meet my standards, which are simple:

I wont be afraid for them on the street.


----------



## Twin Fist

Gorilla said:


> Describe the standards that he/she would have to meet to be considered Bruce Lee Jr.



This sums it up well:


*1.* Crisp performance of each form with power and snap.
*2.* Ability to perform the techniques of the curriculum with power and snap, both solo, in step sparring, and in free sparring (to the extent that the sparring rules allow).
*3.* Mature enough that you would think that the kid is at least fifteen in the dojo.
*4.* The ability to "defend themselves" against an adult attacker. I do not mean the ability to beat an adult attacker. But to use their techniques in a way so as to escape or ward off an adult attacker. This should be demonstrated with an adult student or instructor standing in as the adult attacker and not just giving it up for the kid.
*5.* The ability to transmit technique to an underbelt of any age. I do not mean take the class by themselves. But if I go into a school as a white belt at age 42, a ten year old black belt should be able to demonstrate a turning kick, break down how to properly perform it, and tell me if I am doing it correctly, as well as give me pointers as to how to improve it.
*6.* Be able to spar at an adult black belt level in terms of execution when sparring kids their own age and should be able to at least handle themselves in sparring with an adult black belt student.
*7.* For breaking requirements, they need to break the same number and thickness of boards that the adult black belts do.

in addition, the mental toughness so that if we are sparring, and i grab them, and throw them on the ground, they dont freak out and start crying.


----------



## d1jinx

Twin Fist said:


> ok, lets play what if.
> 
> say a 10 year old walks into my place and claims a poom rank
> 
> he is gonna have to show me his stuff.
> 
> thats goes one of two ways:
> 
> 1) he is bruce lee jr. in that case, we wears a plain BB till he learns my system and tests for Jr BB, then gets a DAN belt at 16
> 
> 2) he sucks like every other 10 yr old BB i have ever seen, in that case, he can put on a white belt. Like everyone else.


 
I agree.  any student walks in, they are assessed and not always keep the belt they have.


----------



## terryl965

I see where everyone say crisp exact forms or poomsae or Kata, what happen to the application? Are these not being tought anymore? I mean for me it is more important to understand the application of poomsae, form, or Kata than be able to look like a dance of some kind.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> I see where everyone say crisp exact forms or poomsae or Kata, what happen to the application? Are these not being tought anymore? I mean for me it is more important to understand the application of poomsae, form, or Kata than be able to look like a dance of some kind.


Totally agree with you.  

My personal reason for crisp exact forms is that the student is doing them without a resisting opponent, so there is no reason for a form to be performed sloppily at the black belt level.  For a BB, each technique should be performed proficiently and in a way that it would be effective if used against an opponent.  

For example, Koryo should have the first two side kicks aimed at the knee and the chest, not the face and the sky.

Also, if the student, be they ten or twenty, looks like they are having seizures when they do their form, then it is obvious that they cannot perform the techniques in a practical application, whether or not they know the application.  Which by blackbelt level, they darn well better.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> Daniel,
> let me be clear. I will NEVER promote a 10 yr old to a DAN rank.
> 
> a jr BB? maybe, but i cant see it happening. From what I have seen, it would only happen if they came in with a TON of GOOD training already. a more likely age would be 12-14 for a JR BB
> 
> 
> 
> i will NEVER promote under 16 to DAN rank.
> 
> that isnt hyperbole. it is a FACT
> 
> a Jr BB certainly, if they meet my standards, which are simple:
> 
> I wont be afraid for them on the street.


I never doubted you for a minute.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I caught this too late to edit.  The correction is in blue.


Daniel Sullivan said:


> Certainly, T/F would be an exception here, but I was not speaking of masters who use never; just the use of the term in general, both by masters and non masters alike.
> 
> *A hyperbolic "never" is different from a policy of "never."* I feel that I can safely say that Twin Fist will never promote a child of ten or under to black belt.
> 
> On the other hand I would not categorically say that a ten year old in general can never be a "true" black belt, which is, I think, what some have said and what got the discussion moving in this direction.
> 
> Then of course, there is the question of what _defines_ a true black belt. I would gather that this differs from person to person and from school to school. I have already stated my own definition, which is hinged entirely on a specific level of proficiency.
> 
> Some people use a relative scale of personal improvement. This is how many schools award rank, thus a handicapped student who trains hard may not have the same physical ability as a non-handicapped student, but he or she has put in the work and can execute the techniques to the very best of his or her ability. Or a child student who may not be able to execute at an adult level, but who has trained hard and does the very best that they possibly can do.
> 
> I think that my main issue with child BB's is that it really is not appropriate to put a child through an adult test due to vulnerabilities that a growing child's body has that an adult's does not. There are similar cautions regarding certain levels of weight training and children below a certain age. The main issue is to avoid injury to the child until the skeletal structure is sound.
> 
> Daniel


 
Sorry.

Daniel


----------



## mwd0818

Gorilla said:


> Based on the theme of this thread and the input that we have gotten so far and your statement that TKD Practitionors that use the word "never" in regards to youth BLack Belts as hyperbole. Under what circumstance do you believe a Black Belt should be awarded to a Martial Artist under 10.



I don't teach TKD, but by definition, that would be impossible in my instruction in Kempo.  I'll start a student as young as 6, but Black Belt takes about 5-7 years for an adult, and I need about 3-4 more for a child (same requirements).  Therefore, minimum, they would be 14, and I've never had anyone stick around 8 years for that one.  Most of the time, it's 16 at least, and at that point, they've earned a full Dan ranking Black Belt.

Not TKD, but just depositing my $1.63 (2 cents adjusted for inflation).


----------



## mwd0818

And to the point of a 10 year old walking in wearing a Black Belt and wanting to training with me.  I have two rules:

1) If you are stopping in to train, you are welcome to wear whatever belt/uniform you wish.  You will be respected and will be judged not on the color of your belt or the number of stripes, but your skill.

2) If you wish to learn and become a student, your rank will be a direct reflection of your knowledge of the arts I teach.  Your previous rank will be respected, but a Black Belt in one art does not necessarily translate to anything more than (possibly) faster progression in another.*

*Since the arts I teach come from Hawaii in origin, I do offer some concessions to martial artists from other Hawaiian arts in lineage.  You come in with experience in Kajukenbo, CHA-3, Karazenpo, Shaolin Kenpo (different art), etc., you may not be a white belt.  Come in from Goju-Ryu, TKD, Hapkido or Judo, and you'll be back at white.


----------



## Gorilla

My Son who is 12 is going to be testing for his 3rd Poom.  I was a little bit concerned that he was to young but after some discussion the Master on his team thinks that he is ready they will put him through a 3 month course to make sure that he is ready and then he will test.  My daughter who is 15 almost 16 will test for her 2nd Dan is without a doubt ready.

My son was a 1st Poom at 7 1/2 and 2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2.  I have met several people who have ?'s his qualifications before they saw him fight or train or witnessed his demeanor in the dojang.  None have have questioned it after they have seen him fight train or act in person...I know hand full of 12-13 year olds who hold this rank from different schools all owned by responsible Masters who(IMHO) deserve the rank 3rd Poom.  It can and does happen...By the way all 3 poom ranks will have come from different schools(we had to move because of Job) not a school hopper.  So three different Masters ranking 5th, 6th and 9th agree that he deserves this rank...Let the debate begin again do you think that it is possible that my kid might deserve this rank(don't worry I wont get my feelings hurt )


----------



## shesulsa

I suppose I'd ask, "what does 'deserves this rank' mean?"  That he had perfect attendance? can perform the laundry list of what he was supposed to memorize? 

There will never be any kind of agreement on putting black belts on children.  I think, personally, it's not so much the color of the belt but the _*connotation it carries*_. 

There are plenty of adults in TKD who believe little kids and teenagers should hold black rank.  I am not an adult in TKD and I don't believe little kids nor teenagers should hold black (nor even high color) rank.

That said, I have not met your children.  But I can imagine only a few things worse than handing a good kid an award which requires much maturity.


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## TKD_Father

Your son sounds amazing, truly talented. 

You should be very proud.


----------



## Twin Fist

no thanks.


----------



## Gorilla

He seems to handle it quite well.  It has only increased his dedication and work ethic.  I don't push my kids this is their choice. Allot of people put allot of thought into whether he deserves this and the answer is if he can get through the next 3 months yes.  They don't give way Black belts grades easy.  It is his choice to do the work.  My kids see TKD as a life long commitment.  They have allot of strong mentors.


----------



## Twin Fist

Gorilla said:


> They don't give way Black belts grades easy.




he got Black at 7
yes, they do give them away easy.

too easy

just my opinion, and i dont care if you agree with me.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> My Son who is 12 is going to be testing for his 3rd Poom. I was a little bit concerned that he was to young but after some discussion the Master on his team thinks that he is ready they will put him through a 3 month course to make sure that he is ready and then he will test. My daughter who is 15 almost 16 will test for her 2nd Dan is without a doubt ready.
> 
> My son was a 1st Poom at 7 1/2 and 2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2. I have met several people who have ?'s his qualifications before they saw him fight or train or witnessed his demeanor in the dojang. None have have questioned it after they have seen him fight train or act in person...I know hand full of 12-13 year olds who hold this rank from different schools all owned by responsible Masters who(IMHO) deserve the rank 3rd Poom. It can and does happen...By the way all 3 poom ranks will have come from different schools(we had to move because of Job) not a school hopper. So three different Masters ranking 5th, 6th and 9th agree that he deserves this rank...Let the debate begin again do you think that it is possible that my kid might deserve this rank(don't worry I wont get my feelings hurt )


Even with the Kukkiwon providing 'portable rank' via serving as an international rank registry, a black belt is really meaningful only in the school in which the student was taught, tested and promoted.  If he is has met *that* school's standards for a first poom, then he is deserving of it by *that* school's standards.  

In another school, your son may be incredibly advanced.  In another school, he may be considered a low belt.  In the school he is currently in, he is considered right for his rank.

There is no debate, as standards varry from school to school.  Different schools promote based on different criteria.  Our school has an exceptionally physical test.  Other schools focus more on the mental, and others on technicals.  Some schools focus on personal development, which will be different from student to student.

What is done in my school does not reflect in any way on what is done in yours, which does not reflect in any way on what is done in Twin Fist's school.  If you are happy where you are, then great.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist

yeah, just dont be shocked if you go to another school and he gets his butt handed to him on a platter......


it could happen.


----------



## shesulsa

Gorilla said:


> if he get through the next 3 months yes.



Three months?  Look, I'm an adult and I went through more than one and a half YEARS between my half-black test and my test for black.



> They don't give way Black belts grades easy.



I'd be appreciative if you could post his requirements here.  But I can say with ... heh ... quit a bit of confidence that three months of work for a black belt on a kid *is* *absolutely* *giving* *rank* *away* *easy.*

Just so we're clear ... I want you to know, I wish you no ill will whatsoever and I'm not passing judgement on your son ... the practice of black-ranking children is an abominable practice and should not be done.  I don't know a single martial artist I respect who thinks this practice is okay.  You are paying good money for an important program for your children and I'm sure you want what's best for them.


----------



## ATC

Gorilla said:


> My Son who is 12 is going to be testing for his 3rd Poom. I was a little bit concerned that he was to young but after some discussion the Master on his team thinks that he is ready they will put him through a 3 month course to make sure that he is ready and then he will test. My daughter who is 15 almost 16 will test for her 2nd Dan is without a doubt ready.
> 
> My son was a 1st Poom at 7 1/2 and 2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2. I have met several people who have ?'s his qualifications before they saw him fight or train or witnessed his demeanor in the dojang. None have have questioned it after they have seen him fight train or act in person...I know hand full of 12-13 year olds who hold this rank from different schools all owned by responsible Masters who(IMHO) deserve the rank 3rd Poom. It can and does happen...By the way all 3 poom ranks will have come from different schools(we had to move because of Job) not a school hopper. So three different Masters ranking 5th, 6th and 9th agree that he deserves this rank...Let the debate begin again do you think that it is possible that my kid might deserve this rank(don't worry I wont get my feelings hurt )


That's great Gorilla. Where are you located? If close enough it would be nice to have my son spar or cross train with yours. My son is 10 and is a second poom right now. He has a way to go for his 3rd but he is still pluggin away at it. In our dojang there is no one his age that he can train with as he destroys them all. He has to fight the older 2nd dan girls and still beats them all pretty easy. Just today he put a 3rd dan teenager (boy) down for the count with a back kick. The kick was an accident but still he drop a kid 6 years older than him and about 60 pounds heavier.

My daughter is also a second poom (12 years old) and could be better than my son but she does not apply herself.

I think every dojang has one, maybe two kids that are very good and way ahead of the curve. Keep training him hard and don't let him give up. Maybe some day your's and mine will meet up in the ring.


----------



## Sukerkin

That's a valid point, *ATC* - when it comes to effective skill then there are always around 5% of any population that are actually talented at something (as opposed to competently trained in it).

I think what most people are talking about here tho are 'chronologically immature' practitioners being granted grades that carry more than a little 'baggage' external to simply knowing your kata.

I had thought that all arts had junior grades that become obsolete as the child grows up?  My Lau Gar school certainly did.  

A youth could earn his black sash, certainly.  But when he reached 16 he was expected to essentially start again and work towards a non-provisional black sash.  A junior grade was a good gauge of how well a child measured up against his contempories but was in no way considered to be an equivalent to an adult grade.


----------



## TKD_Father

ATC said:


> That's great Gorilla. Where are you located? If close enough it would be nice to have my son spar or cross train with yours. My son is 10 and is a second poom right now. He has a way to go for his 3rd but he is still pluggin away at it. In our dojang there is no one his age that he can train with as he destroys them all. He has to fight the older 2nd dan girls and still beats them all pretty easy. Just today he put a 3rd dan teenager (boy) down for the count with a back kick. The kick was an accident but still he drop a kid 6 years older than him and about 60 pounds heavier.
> 
> My daughter is also a second poom (12 years old) and could be better than my son but she does not apply herself.
> 
> I think every dojang has one, maybe two kids that are very good and way ahead of the curve. Keep training him hard and don't let him give up. Maybe some day your's and mine will meet up in the ring.



That is very familiar. My son has the exact same issues. He can't spar anyone in the "children" class, so he spars the adults, who are at least 2' taller then him. He does extremely well against them, including scoring on several head shots.


----------



## TKD_Father

shesulsa said:


> Three months?  Look, I'm an adult and I went through more than one and a half YEARS between my half-black test and my test for black.



I think you misinterpreted Gorilla's post. What he said was *2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2* which means his son has been 2nd for over 3 years and this 3 months is to _ensure_ he's ready.

That's how I read it, is that correct Gorilla?


----------



## Twin Fist

forget this

post up some video of these 7 year olds that deserve a BB

otherwise? i am calling "belt factory" on this crap

7 year old BB? CRAP

12 year old 3rd black? UBER CRAP

it isnt personal

I dont know you, i dont know your kids, this is crap is out of hand and why i am LEAVING TKD


----------



## shesulsa

Twin Fist said:


> i am LEAVING TKD



Wow! Really? I saw you had started a type of Kenpo ... hey, can we chat about this in PMs civilly? I know I can.


----------



## Taurusmerda

Youth black belts are meaningless.  You mean to tell me that some 10 yr old 2nd dan is actually able to use the techniques properly against a 30 yr old, 225 lb aggressive?  Please.  Unless the kids gone through the Spartan military training, 1 backhand from the adult no belt will send your 2nd dan flying and crying.  Just because he graduated 1st grade, doesn't mean he can hang with the high schoolers. 99% of kids programs are watered down, scaled back and simplified, because 99% of kids out there don't have the physical attributes, the mental ability or the attention span to hack it.  Thinking that your 3rd dan rug rat is comparable to some adult who's worked longer than yours has ben aware of their own boogers is an insult to every adult who has bleed, sweat and worked through pain to achieve a real belt.

But, we know how kids programs go.  You pay for this, and you pay for that, and you pay even more for some special high intensity training, and that is exactly what you get. Lots of it and a lighter wallet for a glorified gym and baby sitting session.   

But if you really think your kid's all that because you bought him a belt, let him spar with the big kids. Let him hang with the grown ups. Any legit dan should be able to do it, regardless of system.  Too mean? Then stop living in your fantasy world and giving your kid a false sense of security before you get him hurt.


----------



## TKD_Father

Taurusmerda said:


> But if you really think your kid's all that because you bought him a belt, let him spar with the big kids. Let him hang with the grown ups. Any legit dan should be able to do it, regardless of system.  Too mean? Then stop living in your fantasy world and giving your kid a false sense of security before you get him hurt.



Are you saying that there shouldn't be weight classes in competitions? That 90 Pound kids should be sparring against 225 pound adults in actual tournaments?


----------



## Taurusmerda

There are no weight classes on the street. Or, do you think a group of criminals will stop and go "No Marty, you can't beat on him, you out weigh him by at least 50 lbs.  Let Stan do it so it's a fair fight."  If you do, you're an idiot.  As to tournaments, you mean these paid events where almost everyone goes home with a trophy because they have so many divisions it's almost  guarantee you'll get at least 1 for showing up?  Do you really think that controlled sparring, under safe conditions, wearing safety gear, with controlled strikes and a "limited safe contact zone" between 2 people close to the same height and weight really is a fair match to a real street fight? Just admit it then, your TKD is as street effective as knitting is.


----------



## TKD_Father

Taurusmerda - thanks for clearing that up, that first post kind of confused me.

I don't think you'll get much argument that TKD isn't the best Martial Art for self defense. And actually, your comments don't really follow along with this thread at all, now that I look at them.

Twin Fist will be the one to jump in and educate you on how holding a belt means nothing when it's your life on the line. Nobody cares if you are a white or 9th in a street fight. _-God, did I just give TF a kudo?!_

There is a HUGE difference between a regulated competition and a street fight. What you've said about regulated competitions VS street fighting holds true for anything. That's why they have rules in a regulated competition.

*Added after mango.man's post
Just curious Taurusmerda, what's your interest in TKD? Are you planning on taking some classes? 

Your profile shows: 





> Systems Studied / InterestedBJJ / MMA / Grappling / Wrestling, Judo


----------



## mango.man

Hope you don't mind, but I went ahead and fixed your post for you.



Taurusmerda said:


> Senior citizen black belts are meaningless. You mean to tell me that some 70 yr old 4ft-9 85lb 2nd dan is actually able to use the techniques properly against a 30 yr old, 6ft-4, 225 lb aggressive? Please. Unless the senior citizen gone through the Spartan military training, 1 backhand from the adult no belt will send your 2nd dan flying and crying. Just because she has been a homemaker for 50 years, doesn't mean she can hang with the thugs and criminals. 99% of all martial arts programs are watered down, scaled back and simplified, because 99% of senior citizens out there don't have the physical attributes, the mental ability or the attention span to hack it. Thinking that your 3rd dan 70 year old granny is comparable to some adult who's less than half her age and doesn't have to stop midway through a fight to change his depends is an insult to every 30 year old who has bleed, sweat and worked through pain to achieve a real belt.


----------



## Taurusmerda

Same point.  Any codger who hasn't gotten on the floor in years who thinks the black belt her earned in 1970 still means something today is just as deluded.  Use it, Train it, Live it, or risk Losing it.


----------



## Taurusmerda

TKD_Father said:


> *Added after mango.man's post
> Just curious Taurusmerda, what's your interest in TKD? Are you planning on taking some classes?



None.  I wasn't aware that conversations on this site were restricted to just those who claim to study in that area.  I saw the youth black belt title, commented on that.  My opinion of TKD doesn't apply here.


----------



## TKD_Father

Taurusmerda said:


> None.  I wasn't aware that conversations on this site were restricted to just those who claim to study in that area.  I saw the youth black belt title, commented on that.  My opinion of TKD doesn't apply here.



Whoa there, don't get so defensive. Just saw that you weren't involved with TKD and thought you might be interested in taking it up. There's a lot of knowledgeable people here who could help you get started.


----------



## ATC

Taurusmerda said:


> Youth black belts are meaningless. You mean to tell me that some 10 yr old 2nd dan is actually able to use the techniques properly against a 30 yr old, 225 lb aggressive? Please. Unless the kids gone through the Spartan military training.


So the way you think is that there is no need for kids to do Martial Arts at all. The said kid that does and loves the MA will at some point grow and any said skills that were learned and perfected at 7 up to adult size would still apply. Making such said kid that much better than any adult that attepmts to learn his skill at an age where habit, flexibility, time in training, and many other obsticles would make it almost impossible for that said adult to achive the same level of skill, power and acurracy.

Many of the Korean, Chinese, and Japanese master have been doing their arts since child hood. We have a few adult black belts in our dojang and they are not bad but I can tell you this much, my 10 and 12 year old son daughter can run circles around them all.


----------



## Sukerkin

I don't know as that last statement holds a great deal of water, *ATC*. Are you certain you're not allowing due parental pride to stop you seeing the realities of the situation?

As to martial arts training for children, well, to be honest, if it is driven to the pitch it needs to be to make a difference, I approve of that as much as I approve of weight training for children i.e. I don't.

Junior Belts are just that, Junior Belts. As I mentioned on this subject before, I am astounded that it is not seen as universal that such grades have meaning in their context but that the individual involved must understand they are in a two tier system. 

All athletic disciplines use this structure, tennis being the one that springs to mind as a clear example, or motorsport too. Rank as a Junior does not translate to rank as a senior and nor should it. That doesn't mean that Junior Ranks are worthless, it just means that they have value in their context.


----------



## ATC

Sukerkin said:


> All athletic disciplines use this structure, tennis being the one that springs to mind as a clear example, or motorsport too. Rank as a Junior does not translate to rank as a senior and nor should it. That doesn't mean that Junior Ranks are worthless, it just means that they have value in their context.


to an extent I would agree. However there are levels that tend to overlap. I am positive that the top level Sr. can and will beat the top level Jr., however the same top level Jr. will beat a great deal of low level and mid level Sr's. You are looking at it as an absolute and it is not. But as I stated once that said top level Jr. becomes a Sr. he will have an easier time to become a top level Sr. then would a Sr. just starting or many low level Sr's.


----------



## Twin Fist

georgia, i am restricted i cant get pm's, look me up on facebook, i am on carols friends list




shesulsa said:


> Wow! Really? I saw you had started a type of Kenpo ... hey, can we chat about this in PMs civilly? I know I can.


----------



## Twin Fist

ATC said:


> We have a few adult black belts in our dojang and they are not bad but I can tell you this much, my 10 and 12 year old son daughter can run circles around them all.




I call Belt Factory till i see some video


----------



## ATC

Taurusmerda said:


> Youth black belts are meaningless. You mean to tell me that some 10 yr old 2nd dan is actually able to use the techniques properly against a 30 yr old, 225 lb aggressive? Please. Unless the kids gone through the Spartan military training, 1 backhand from the adult no belt will send your 2nd dan flying and crying. Just because he graduated 1st grade, doesn't mean he can hang with the high schoolers. 99% of kids programs are watered down, scaled back and simplified, because 99% of kids out there don't have the physical attributes, the mental ability or the attention span to hack it. Thinking that your 3rd dan rug rat is comparable to some adult who's worked longer than yours has ben aware of their own boogers is an insult to every adult who has bleed, sweat and worked through pain to achieve a real belt.
> 
> But, we know how kids programs go. You pay for this, and you pay for that, and you pay even more for some special high intensity training, and that is exactly what you get. Lots of it and a lighter wallet for a glorified gym and baby sitting session.
> 
> But if you really think your kid's all that because you bought him a belt, let him spar with the big kids. Let him hang with the grown ups. Any legit dan should be able to do it, regardless of system. Too mean? Then stop living in your fantasy world and giving your kid a false sense of security before you get him hurt.


I just re-read this statement and this statement does not hold water. All belts are meaningless without experience. I have seen many so called teenage and young adults get creamed in a real fight with people their own age and size let alone someone 150 pounds heavier. All you did was to discredit any belt and age with a outlandish hypothetical. It is like saying a child using a .22 cal gun is usless againt a charging elephant. Well that statement holds true for any person holding the .22. However a .22 would be just fine in a more realist hypothetical. Using the extreams to prove a point is what I see as meaningless.


----------



## ATC

Twin Fist said:


> I call Belt Factory till i see some video


There are two in my siq. One from a year ago and the other from 2 years ago. From there you can see others on my YT site.

Now you talk alot and bang your chest the hardest on here but where are your videos also. So until I see some videos of you and your's I'll just call you a Keyboard Warrior.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> I think you misinterpreted Gorilla's post. What he said was *2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2* which means his son has been 2nd for over 3 years and this 3 months is to _ensure_ he's ready.
> 
> That's how I read it, is that correct Gorilla?


That is how I read it as well.

Daniel


----------



## ralphmcpherson

wow , what a thread , makes for great reading. I personally dont agree with child black belts. My club allows for child black belts as long as they pass the same criteria as the adults , I still disagree with it but it doesnt affect my training so I dont get too worried about it. I dont , though , expect any child (irrespective of belt level) to be able to defend themselves against an adult , it just aint gonna happen. In saying that I dont think a 92 year old 9th dan would go very well against a big, fit , strong ,athletic guy in his 20's even though he posseses extensive knowledge , its all relative. The one point that I have to agree with is the one about sport tkd only schools having a different belt standard. I am probably biased on that as I really do not like sport tkd at all. I love tkd with a passion and train most days of the week and yet when the olympics are on I dont bother watching any of the tkd as I'd rather sit and watch paint dry.


----------



## Twin Fist

ATC said:


> Now you talk alot and bang your chest the hardest on here but where are your videos also. So until I see some videos of you and your's I'll just call you a Keyboard Warrior.




uh, i HAVE a bunch of videos up, of both ME and my students.

look for threads created by me


----------



## Twin Fist

ok, i cant judge his kata (thats ok, olympic style crap factories dont care about kata anyway) or self defense (ditto) i will say that he is fairly skilled at olympic style crap sparring. Except for the falling over that is....but thats olympic style crap sparring for you

can he teach?
how is his self defense?
how is his kata?

did he go through that same 3 day BB test you told us about?

so, in my school owner opinion, i cant say he doesnt deserve a Jr Black, not enough information. JUST based on his sparring, i would say, sure, Jr BB. Which is BTW a HUGE compliment comming from me.

i can say that in my opinion, NO KID DESERVES A 3RD STRIPE AT 12 FRIGGIN YEARS OLD


----------



## Twin Fist

ATC said:


> Now you talk alot and bang your chest the hardest on here but where are your videos also. So until I see some videos of you and your's I'll just call you a Keyboard Warrior.




uh, Slick, I aint the one claiming that my 2 year old deserves to be a black belt so i dont have anything TO prove, and i have already said that my opinions ont his subject of embryos getting black belts are just that, my opinions and i dont care what anyone else thinks.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Once again, the whole question is what the black belt represents in a particular school.

If it represents that you have learned all of the kyu grade material, then age is irrelevent.  

If it represents that you have made a great deal of personal improvement, then once again, age is irrelevent.

If it represents tournament skill, then age is irrelevent because the rank holder is only pitted against those of the same age, size, and belt range.

If it represents that you can proficiently defend yourself against an adult attacker using the style, then age will be a factor.

Daniel


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Once again, the whole question is what the black belt represents in a particular school.
> 
> If it represents that you have learned all of the kyu grade material, then age is irrelevent.
> 
> If it represents that you have made a great deal of personal improvement, then once again, age is irrelevent.
> 
> If it represents tournament skill, then age is irrelevent because the rank holder is only pitted against those of the same age, size, and belt range.
> 
> If it represents that you can proficiently defend yourself against an adult attacker using the style, then age will be a factor.
> 
> Daniel


can any child under 12 or 13 defend themselves against an adult? I doubt it. If they could it would most probably be because they are very big/strong for their age but not due to martial arts skills. This is why I personally dont believe in child black belts. In saying that though , I know of some very good adult black belts who are only 5 foot tall and only weigh about 50 kilos and I doubt they would do too well against a big strong , well built 6 1/2 foot monster of a man. Physical size will always play a part irrespective of how many skills someone has in my opinion.


----------



## Gorilla

TKD_Father said:


> I think you misinterpreted Gorilla's post. What he said was *2nd at 9 and will be a 3rd at 12 1/2* which means his son has been 2nd for over 3 years and this 3 months is to _ensure_ he's ready.
> 
> That's how I read it, is that correct Gorilla?



7 1/2 1st Poom
9 2nd Poom

He will be 12 1/2 when he gets his 3rd poom.  if he gets thru the 3 month testing period and passes the test.  Nothing is for sure.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ralphmcpherson said:


> can any child under 12 or 13 defend themselves against an adult? I doubt it.


As do I.  That is why I said that in that case, age would be a factor.



ralphmcpherson said:


> If they could it would most probably be because they are very big/strong for their age but not due to martial arts skills. This is why I personally dont believe in child black belts. In saying that though , I know of some very good adult black belts who are only 5 foot tall and only weigh about 50 kilos and I doubt they would do too well against a big strong , well built 6 1/2 foot monster of a man. Physical size will always play a part irrespective of how many skills someone has in my opinion.


There are probably some twelve or thirteen year olds who have the martial skill to defend themselves against an adult.  These are the *very* rare exceptions, and likely are kids who have had rigorous and practical training from a very young age, the kind of training that kids classes in 99% of MA schools do not offer, particularly in the US.  

Daniel


----------



## Gorilla

ATC said:


> That's great Gorilla. Where are you located? If close enough it would be nice to have my son spar or cross train with yours. My son is 10 and is a second poom right now. He has a way to go for his 3rd but he is still pluggin away at it. In our dojang there is no one his age that he can train with as he destroys them all. He has to fight the older 2nd dan girls and still beats them all pretty easy. Just today he put a 3rd dan teenager (boy) down for the count with a back kick. The kick was an accident but still he drop a kid 6 years older than him and about 60 pounds heavier.
> 
> My daughter is also a second poom (12 years old) and could be better than my son but she does not apply herself.
> 
> I think every dojang has one, maybe two kids that are very good and way ahead of the curve. Keep training him hard and don't let him give up. Maybe some day your's and mine will meet up in the ring.



Two Dragons TKD Las Vegas just let me know we would love to have you come by.  We may have a rumble in November.  My Son is a 4 time USAT National Medalist in the Junior Olympics World Class division 2008 National Champion 10/11.  My daughter is a 2 time AAU National team member and current Junior Fin weight member.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> I just re-read this statement and this statement does not hold water. All belts are meaningless without experience. I have seen many so called teenage and young adults get creamed in a real fight with people their own age and size let alone someone 150 pounds heavier. All you did was to discredit any belt and age with a outlandish hypothetical. It is like saying a child using a .22 cal gun is usless againt a charging elephant. Well that statement holds true for any person holding the .22. However a .22 would be just fine in a more realist hypothetical. Using the extreams to prove a point is what I see as meaningless.


Though I did not agree with his post in its entirety, it does hold a fair amount of water.

The gun analogy does not hold water because the gun is not related to any training that a person may have and an adult attacker is not a charging elephant  

Kids can be taught strategies that are effective to varying degrees against an adult attacker.  But most kids classes do not focus on these.  They do focus on kids squaring off against other kids.

Now, to be fair, in all likelihood, it is other kids that a kid will most often need to defend themselves against.  Unfortunately, a cursory read of the news paper will reveal that adult attackers are a very real threat to kids.

Daniel


----------



## Gorilla

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As do I.  That is why I said that in that case, age would be a factor.
> 
> 
> There are probably some twelve or thirteen year olds who have the martial skill to defend themselves against an adult.  These are the *very* rare exceptions, and likely are kids who have had rigorous and practical training from a very young age, the kind of training that kids classes in 99% of MA schools do not offer, particularly in the US.
> 
> Daniel



Trains 6 days a week.  2 hours per day.  Up to 6 hours on Saturday.  lots of road work.  runs up to 5 miles.  does allot of track work for explosiveness high hurdles sprint work.  In Las Vegas it can get as hot as 120.  They also do High altitude training at Mount Charleston 7000 feet.  The amount of training does change based on trying to achieve peak performance.  The lowest they get is 1 hour per day and 2 hours on Saturday.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Though I did not agree with his post in its entirety, it does hold a fair amount of water.
> 
> The gun analogy does not hold water because the gun is not related to any training that a person may have and an adult attacker is not a charging elephant
> 
> Kids can be taught strategies that are effective to varying degrees against an adult attacker.  But most kids classes do not focus on these.  They do focus on kids squaring off against other kids.
> 
> Now, to be fair, in all likelihood, it is other kids that a kid will most often need to defend themselves against.  Unfortunately, a cursory read of the news paper will reveal that adult attackers are a very real threat to kids.
> 
> Daniel


very true. Most clubs are just teaching kids to defend themselves against other kids in the school play ground. As most young kids in the playground have literally no fighting skills whatsoever , it gives the kid with a little martial arts training a false impression of how good they are , and that can be dangerous. I remember a young kid who trains at my club who is really quite average and doesnt practice very much , if at all. Anyway , he goes to school with my daughter and one day my daughter came home and told me that this kid had easily kicked the crap out of two kids who were picking on his older brother. Of course at that age it probably went straight to his head and he will think he is unbeatable but the 2 kids he fought (primary school age but a year older than him) had never attempted to throw a punch or fight anyone in their life. Against anyone with any experience he would lose easily but the average 10 year old in the playground has no idea how to fight, so a little basic punching and kicking ability can go a long way.


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> forget this
> 
> post up some video of these 7 year olds that deserve a BB
> 
> otherwise? i am calling "belt factory" on this crap
> 
> 7 year old BB? CRAP
> 
> 12 year old 3rd black? UBER CRAP
> 
> it isnt personal
> 
> I dont know you, i dont know your kids, this is crap is out of hand and why i am LEAVING TKD



I don't post videos of My kids fights or training.  I would invite you to come by and train with us if you are ever in Vegas.  You can then judge for yourself.  Sorry to see that you are leaving TKD.  I have run into many people that feel the way that you feel.  I understand it.  The school that my kids are currently with is a hard training sport school.  When my son walked in as a(9 year old) 2nd degree the big gun fighter got mad and stated what have we turned into an ATA school.  He changed his tune rapidly when he saw that he could train just as hard and just as long.  He is currently my kids biggest supporter


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> ok, i cant judge his kata (thats ok, olympic style crap factories dont care about kata anyway) or self defense (ditto) i will say that he is fairly skilled at olympic style crap sparring. Except for the falling over that is....but thats olympic style crap sparring for you
> 
> can he teach?
> how is his self defense?
> how is his kata?
> 
> did he go through that same 3 day BB test you told us about?
> 
> so, in my school owner opinion, i cant say he doesnt deserve a Jr Black, not enough information. JUST based on his sparring, i would say, sure, Jr BB. Which is BTW a HUGE compliment comming from me.
> 
> i* can say that in my opinion, NO KID DESERVES A 3RD STRIPE AT 12 FRIGGIN YEARS OLD*


*
*

My sons forms are fine and his self defense is good.  He can teach he taught his sister most of the forms(she got 3rd at National 2007)  He has had around 200 sport TKD fights. He can beat his sister who is National Level Junior.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> Trains 6 days a week. 2 hours per day. Up to 6 hours on Saturday. lots of road work. runs up to 5 miles. does allot of track work for explosiveness high hurdles sprint work. In Las Vegas it can get as hot as 120. They also do High altitude training at Mount Charleston 7000 feet. The amount of training does change based on trying to achieve peak performance. The lowest they get is 1 hour per day and 2 hours on Saturday.


That is excellent training for an athletic event, but the only part of it that has any bearing on defending themselves against an adult is what goes in in class. And unless a child is being pitted against adult opponents in realistic scenarios (WTF sparing is not at all representative of an attack, particularly an adult attacking a child) that allow full contact strikes to the kids from the adults and with both kids and the adults in minimal padding, then he or she is not trained to face an adult attacker outside of the ring.

Also, the biggest thing that a child has to face from an adult is not punches and kicks, but being grabbed. Defense against grapples is generally fairly shallow in most TKD schools, and that includes the adults. A kid being grabbed from behind and tossed into the trunk of a car is much more likely than an adult coming at the kid with kicks and punches that can be dodged or parried.

Remember that an adult attacking a child is generally different from an adult attacking another adult. You and I are more likely to have to defend ourselves in a traditional fist fight due to some clown getting out of hand and losing their temper in a social situation. An adult attacking a kid is not interested in defeating them in a fight. They are interested in either sexually abusing or killing the child or both. It is the same dynamic that occurs between rapists and their victims. Also consider that victims are chosen. Adults who attack kids are like rapists: they are predators. They choose their victims and strike when they have the greatest likelihood of success. It is not just a question of size and strength differential; the element of surprise and the factor of the attacker being armed both make a huge difference.

The athletic training you describe would come in handy in two aspects of an attack: the first is that being in shape is beneficial to withstanding impact, and the second is that if your son can disengage from the adult, it is very likely that your son can outrun most adults, given how you describe his training.

Lastly, in no way am I belittling your son's training; it sounds excellent. But he is training for competition, which is a different fight than that of dealing with an adult attacker.

Daniel


----------



## Gorilla

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That is excellent training for an athletic event, but the only part of it that has any bearing on defending themselves against an adult is what goes in in class. And unless a child is being pitted against adult opponents in realistic scenarios (WTF sparing is not at all representative of an attack, particularly an adult attacking a child) that allow full contact strikes to the kids from the adults and with both kids and the adults in minimal padding, then he or she is not trained to face an adult attacker outside of the ring.
> 
> Also, the biggest thing that a child has to face from an adult is not punches and kicks, but being grabbed. Defense against grapples is generally fairly shallow in most TKD schools, and that includes the adults. A kid being grabbed from behind and tossed into the trunk of a car is much more likely than an adult coming at the kid with kicks and punches that can be dodged or parried.
> 
> Remember that an adult attacking a child is generally different from an adult attacking another adult. You and I are more likely to have to defend ourselves in a traditional fist fight due to some clown getting out of hand and losing their temper in a social situation. An adult attacking a kid is not interested in defeating them in a fight. They are interested in either sexually abusing or killing the child or both. It is the same dynamic that occurs between rapists and their victims. Also consider that victims are chosen. Adults who attack kids are like rapists: they are predators. They choose their victims and strike when they have the greatest likelihood of success. It is not just a question of size and strength differential; the element of surprise and the factor of the attacker being armed both make a huge difference.
> 
> The athletic training you describe would come in handy in two aspects of an attack: the first is that being in shape is beneficial to withstanding impact, and the second is that if your son can disengage from the adult, it is very likely that your son can outrun most adults, given how you describe his training.
> 
> Lastly, in no way am I belittling your son's training; it sounds excellent. But he is training for competition, which is a different fight than that of dealing with an adult attacker.
> 
> Daniel



It would be very difficult to catch my son adult or child.  He has extensive SD training.  He is has been focusing on the sportside but he will be doing allot of forms and self def again. He will be testing for 3rd in 3 months if he gets thru the 3 month prep period.  All his black belt test have been with adults.  He trains with adults and meets the same standards, The most important part of self def is to be aware of your surroundings.  He has a very acute sense of awareness and this has kept him out of trouble so far.


----------



## Twin Fist

sorry, i dont believe it

vids for proof, or BELT FACTORY


----------



## Twin Fist

Gorilla said:


> It would be very difficult to catch my son adult or child.  He has extensive SD training.



what a bunch of  crap

HE IS 12

he hasnt had TIME for extensive training in ANYTHING past not crapping in his pants

give me a ****ing break

I know, you have to believe all this crap, otherwise you are a fool for paying for it

i dont care

schools like YOURS are the problem, and your instructor should be slapped silly for ROBBING you

i am sorry, i HATE to be the one telling you this, but you are being played for a FOOL, and I am sure you dont know any better, but youy have been fooled and fed a line of crap


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*Let me interject a polite reminder to calm down before things go past the point of politeness.*


----------



## ATC

What I see is a, because I don't do it then it can't be done mentality. We can go round and round with this forever. We could show the proof and it would be dismissed so the whole thing is pointless. I know what I know. I have seen a 10 year old drop a 16 year old in his tracks, both in sparring and SD. So if you don't believe it so what. I am not saying that said 10 year old could handle himself in every and all situations but neither could any adult in every and all situations. So what's the real point here? Should a 10 year old hold a black belt rank? Well all I know is that I see many adults, that to me, don't deserve a black belt but they have them, even though they could not defend themselves from a fly. Believe what you want as it is just that a belief and nothing more, does not make it true or false in the end.


----------



## Twin Fist

ATC said:


> What I see is a, because I don't do it then it can't be done mentality.




more like I dont do it, most people dont do it, it was never done before the 90's, it is only done in TKD, the self defense styles dont do it,  and it is retarded so it *shouldnt* be done.

people CAN do whatever they want. I CAN think it is a crap sandwich. And I am not alone.

And BTW- i didnt dismiss you, i gave your kid a HUGE compliment, that his fighting looked, to me, to be Jr BB level. 

TRUST ME thats a BIG compliment comming from me.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> It would be very difficult to catch my son adult or child. He has extensive SD training. He is has been focusing on the sportside but he will be doing allot of forms and self def again. He will be testing for 3rd in 3 months if he gets thru the 3 month prep period. All his black belt test have been with adults. He trains with adults and meets the same standards, The most important part of self def is to be aware of your surroundings. He has a very acute sense of awareness and this has kept him out of trouble so far.


Well, that sounds good.  But it is also mostly relative.

I cannot make any comment on how difficult your son is to catch or what his situational awareness is like, though both difficult to catch and being aware are the most effective things that a kid can be trained in, as neither are affected by size and strength differential nor by age.

As for the rest, extensive is relative.  What I consider extensive requires more time than a school age child will have had to train unless they live at the dojo and do not go to school.

As you know, standards vary enough from school to school that saying that your son is held to the same standards as the adults does not really say a whole lot except that the test is equitable between adults and kids.

Even the term SD is relative, given what passes for SD in some schools.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> more like I dont do it, most people dont do it, it was never done before the 90's, it is only done in TKD


I wish that this was true, but kiddie belts is certainly not unique to TKD, though due to the sheer quantity of TKD schools, it probably seems that way.  I have seen it in TSD, various karate schools, and a hapkido school or two.

Daniel


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I wish that this was true, but kiddie belts is certainly not unique to TKD, though due to the sheer quantity of TKD schools, it probably seems that way.  I have seen it in TSD, various karate schools, and a hapkido school or two.
> 
> Daniel


same thing over here too. There are kid black belts in almost all arts but tkd is the most popular martial art so in ratio there are more.


----------



## Twin Fist

well, we invented it.....


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Twin Fist said:


> well, we invented it.....


I did  karate in 1987 and on my first night there I was instructed by a guy from my grade at school (we were 12 at the time) and he was a black belt , so it has been going on for a while now. It seems where there is money to be made people will exploit it.


----------



## Twin Fist

I started in 1984, and there was, in an org of five schools, a grand total of TWO jr black belts, and they both had to retest at 17 for Dan rank.


----------



## dortiz

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by *dortiz* 

 
_True but we should clear up one technical point. A Black Belt under 15 years of age is a Poom holder. Not a Dan._

That's not universal. "

From the other thread. 

Maybe its not but every school Kukkiwon and some not that I attended in 26 years did it that way. Guess I somehow missed the Mcdojos.

Dave O.


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> what a bunch of  crap
> 
> HE IS 12
> 
> he hasnt had TIME for extensive training in ANYTHING past not crapping in his pants
> 
> give me a ****ing break
> 
> I know, you have to believe all this crap, otherwise you are a fool for paying for it
> 
> i dont care
> 
> schools like YOURS are the problem, and your instructor should be slapped silly for ROBBING you
> 
> i am sorry, i HATE to be the one telling you this, but you are being played for a FOOL, and I am sure you dont know any better, but youy have been fooled and fed a line of crap



I have stated many times before we have 20 students in the 3 years I have been with our Master he has promoted 3 balck belts.  We have 2 AAU National Team Members and 1  USAT B- team member.  He has trained Dewey Cooper former K-1 Champion,  He works with Steve Cantwell current UFC Light Heavy weight and Former WEC Champion.  I would like to see you slap him it would be very funny.  He only charges the Kukiwwon fee for his black belts.  He charges 75 per month and we pay for his travel fees.  He has a job and does TKD because he has a strong passion for it.  I see you are a BBS tough guy very sad.  We do Martial arts  because we love it.  We don't beat people up or start fights and we certainly don't make insulting assumptions.  We don't have to we are true Martial Artists.


----------



## dortiz

I am dummy, whats a BBS??


----------



## TKD_Father

dortiz said:


> I am dummy, whats a BBS??



* I see you are a BBS tough guy*

Bulletin Board System? (If so, then commonly referred to as an "e-thug or web-bully")


----------



## dortiz

Thanks! 

Guess I can be glad to not be in the know.

Cheers,

Dave O.


----------



## dbell

A Black Belt (1st Dan/Poom/etc) to me means that the student has learned the basics of that art and is able to teach what they know to others.  As one progresses from 1st Dan/Poom on up the Dan ranks, it means that they have begun to learn even more about the Art, and have begun to understand the meaning behind all they have learned up to that point.

I find it hard to believe, in most cases, that a 9,10 or 11 year old person is able to understand the meanings behind what they are learning and that they can pass on that meaning to another student.

Now, that said, I often wonder how many of the "Adult" Black Belts have the ability or knowledge...

I do not think that youngsters should wear the belt, but I also respect those schools that decide to issue them.  I only hope that they don't issue them for money reasons.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Rank doesn't mean squat.  Guy's proud his rug rats got an attaboy in a McDojo. Good for him. Everyone should be proud of their kids, unless they are the Menendez's or Borden's.

Kids have rank in a particular school. Doesn't mean they hold rank in any other system, or that anyone else needs to recognize them as such.  Last school I was at, you came in with someone elses blackbelt, you took it off and put on a white belt until you earned it there. Heard the owner tell one angry mommy he didn't care what someone else gave away, his students earned it and he didn't promote until they did. He turned a lot of people away, wasn't into the new age baby sitting crap so many strip mall belt mills are.

My arm reach is such that I'll just lean over a bit, pat little Tommy or Betty on her head and watch them punch air while I laugh.  Then I'll pound the little 23rd dan with a nerf bat til Mommy screams "its not fair, he's bigger!".


----------



## Twin Fist

IMO

you are being robbed and brainwashed and you dont care or dont realize it, or thats what you want, sport fighting, not real martial arts

either way is sad

i dont care how good your kid is, he is TWELVE FRIGGIN YEARS OLD

he aint ready for 1st DAN, much less 3rd

and i would tell your instructor so too.

And it isnt because i am a "tough guy" it is because i am an honest guy. I am the one that tells the uncomfortable truths.

You have been robbed and misled, or you want it that way.

TLL
I would agree that parents should be proud of thier kids, but i would add "as long as the kid has done something to be proud of"





Gorilla said:


> blah blah blah sport fighting blah blah blah olympic style crap blah blah blah personal insult blah blah blah more sport fighting crap pretending to be real martial arts blah blah blah


----------



## Twin Fist

dbell said:


> A Black Belt (1st Dan/Poom/etc) to me means that the student has learned the basics of that art and is able to teach what they know to others.
> 
> I find it hard to believe, in most cases, that a 9,10 or 11 year old person is able to understand the meanings behind what they are learning and that they can pass on that meaning to another student.




thats because it isnt possible

any school that issues 2nd, 3rd, etc to PRETEENS is doing so to make money, pure and simple in my not so humble opinion, and the parents have too much of thier self esteem wrapped up in little johnny's accomplishments to admitt the truth, that thier KID, no matter how talented is in fact a KID, not an expert on anything of consequence.


----------



## Twin Fist

Gorilla, TKD Daddy,
you guys knock yourselves out. Do whatever makes you happy, go to whatever school makes you happy, clearly you like where you are at

but i'll tell you what

dont expect other people to buy into it


----------



## yorkshirelad

Twin Fist said:


> thats because it isnt possible
> 
> any school that issues 2nd, 3rd, etc to PRETEENS is doing so to make money, pure and simple in my not so humble opinion, and the parents have too much of thier self esteem wrapped up in little johnny's accomplishments to admitt the truth, that thier KID, no matter how talented is in fact a KID, not an expert on anything of consequence.


There are some adults not worthy of a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th dan either, you being one of them. I know of a few ten year old kids who could quite possible take you apart TF. At the very least you'd probably have a heart attack running once around the dojang after them.

All of your posts come off as demeaning and insulting. Daniel Sullivan has answered all argument about child bbs in a logical, respectful manner. You should take a page from his book.

Btw, for the last time, it it their not thier


----------



## Twin Fist

personal insult are a violation of the TOS boy


----------



## Twin Fist

and as flattering as it is to have a stalker, you seriously need a new hobby, i know i peed all over your sacred cow, and did it only by telling the truth, but seriously, get a new hobby boy.


----------



## jks9199

*Attention all users:

If the personal attacks, sniping, and general crap fest don't stop real fast, this thread is going to be locked.  I think it's pretty clear that some people hold strong opinions on the issue of youth black belts -- or a youth black belt or two in particular.  Learn to live with the difference of opinion, or make use of the ignore button if you can't.  

This is the last warning on this issue.

jks9199
Moderator
*


----------



## yorkshirelad

Twin Fist said:


> personal insult are a violation of the TOS boy


tes it is...so stop doing it you fool!!


----------



## yorkshirelad

Twin Fist said:


> and as flattering as it is to have a stalker, you seriously need a new hobby, i know i peed all over your sacred cow, and did it only by telling the truth, but seriously, get a new hobby boy.


You seem to pee on everyone's parade. You're the worse kind of playa hater and the mods seem to just endlessly give you a pass. It is almost like not punishing the kid with tourettes. Just letting him run his mouth because he can't help himself. The whole thing is bizarre. Even the name 'Twin Fist' is kind of a given. Like we have to be told that you have two fists.

Then you thank the mods for a warning about bad behaviour that is MOSTLY directed at your ****. 

TKD Father, don't pay too much attention to this guy. He does it with everyone. He does it online because, it's obvious that he has NO chance in a fae to face encounter.

I asked a guy that he badmouthed on here what he was like in person and if he had ever confronted him in person. The guy just laughed. NUF SED.


----------



## jks9199

*Thread locked pending review.*


----------



## Sukerkin

As yet again it seems that there are those who cannot act their age in an On-line environment, this thread is being locked, hopefully temporarily, whilst the Moderation Team decides how to untangle the latest juvenile mess.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Moderator

EDIT:  Ah, a two barrel fusillade it seems


----------



## MJS

*ADMIN NOTE:*

*ATTN ALL USERS:*

The thread is being re-opened on a trial basis, meaning that it is being watched, and will be relocked if the rules can't be followed. A few things:

1) The rules here apply to *all* members, not just a select few, as its been hinted at. It is *NOT* a policy of this forum, to discuss openly, any mod. action that is taken on a member, with other members of the forum. More than one person in this thread has accused the staff here of playing favorites. I can assure you that there have been a number of posts reported in this thread, and a number of people have been dealt with. 

2) With the exception of perhaps a few new members, I'm more than sure everyone here is familiar with the forum rules here. They were agreed upon *by everyone* upon joining the forum. If you have failed to read them, that is your fault, not mine. I suggest everyone take the time to read them again.

3) Use the ignore feature if you do not wish to read a certain members posts. But dont put them on ignore, and then follow them around, stalking them, viewing their replies, reporting every post you can find on them. If that is done, then technically the person doing that is no better, and your actions will be deemed as harassing and abuse of the RTM system. All reported posts are reviewed by the forum mods. Some of them will be deemed no action. Why? Because they were not in violation of the forum rules. 

4) Posting on a forum requires a thick skin. Just because you may not agree with the thoughts of someone else, does not make it ok to start reporting every post of the member that you disagree with. We're not robots here. I may like something someone else does not. Get over it and learn to deal with it. 

5) If you can't follow the rules, then perhaps posting is not for you. Again, they are in place for everyone, not a select few. 

6) Lets return to the topic at hand, which is youth black belts. There have been a number of mod. warnings posted in this thread. They were not posted for the sake of posting them, they were posted because a number of people could not post without taking a personal shot at someone else. *Consider this, the final warning! Further disregard for the forum rules, will result in the thread being locked, and possible suspension/removal of your account!*

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin


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## Daniel Sullivan

dbell said:


> A Black Belt (1st Dan/Poom/etc) to me means that the student has learned the basics of that art and is able to teach what they know to others. As one progresses from 1st Dan/Poom on up the Dan ranks, it means that they have begun to learn even more about the Art, and have begun to understand the meaning behind all they have learned up to that point.
> 
> I find it hard to believe, in most cases, that a 9,10 or 11 year old person is able to understand the meanings behind what they are learning and that they can pass on that meaning to another student.
> 
> Now, that said, I often wonder how many of the "Adult" Black Belts have the ability or knowledge...
> 
> I do not think that youngsters should wear the belt, but I also respect those schools that decide to issue them. I only hope that they don't issue them for money reasons.


Best post on this thread in my opinion!

Daniel


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## terryl965

dbell said:


> A Black Belt (1st Dan/Poom/etc) to me means that the student has learned the basics of that art and is able to teach what they know to others. As one progresses from 1st Dan/Poom on up the Dan ranks, it means that they have begun to learn even more about the Art, and have begun to understand the meaning behind all they have learned up to that point.
> 
> I find it hard to believe, in most cases, that a 9,10 or 11 year old person is able to understand the meanings behind what they are learning and that they can pass on that meaning to another student.
> 
> Now, that said, I often wonder how many of the "Adult" Black Belts have the ability or knowledge...
> 
> I do not think that youngsters should wear the belt, but I also respect those schools that decide to issue them. I only hope that they don't issue them for money reasons.


 

Mr. Bell I would like to say first great post,I am one of those instructor that believe in the Poom/ Jr. BB belt. Having three sons that have grown up inside a dojaang six days a week since the age of two and train 2-4 hours a day belive after 9-10 years that a jr. bb is appribiate, with that being said at the age of 16 they re-test for a dan rank and I know I do not need to test them but I do anyway because certain  material is not approbiate for childern to learn but at the sametime they have put the time in for that rank

In the end we only have ourself to look in the mirror to remind us what a BB truely is and when someone is ready mentally as well as physically.


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## miguksaram

terryl965 said:


> In the end we only have ourself to look in the mirror to remind us what a BB truely is and when someone is ready mentally as well as physically.


 
Finally a voice of reason!!  This bodes well for an instructor view point and from a student view point.  Regardless of who is wearing a BB next to you or what their age is, ultimately you are responsible for your own training and value of that piece of cloth around your waist.


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## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> I am one of those instructor that believe in the Poom/ Jr. BB belt. Having three sons that have grown up inside a dojaang six days a week since the age of two and train 2-4 hours a day belive after 9-10 years that a jr. bb is appribiate, with that being said at the age of 16 they re-test for a dan rank and I know I do not need to test them but I do anyway because certain material is not approbiate for childern to learn but at the sametime they have put the time in for that rank.


I firmly agree that the poom system or its equivalent in other orgs/schools is a good idea.  I am of the opininion that poom students should wear a poom belt, but ultimately,that is a decision of the school owner.  Different schools handle it differently, and I respect their decision, even if I do not agree.  

I also think that it is very laudible of you to retest the student at sixteen.  This is not a Kukkiwon requirement, but I think that it is a good idea.  Aside from the obvious benefit of putting the student through the adult test, it also allows the student an opportunity to really show how far they have come since their last testing, whatever poom rank it may have been.

Daniel


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## ATC

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I firmly agree that the poom system or its equivalent in other orgs/schools is a good idea. I am of the opininion that poom students should wear a poom belt, but ultimately,that is a decision of the school owner. Different schools handle it differently, and I respect their decision, even if I do not agree.
> 
> I also think that it is very laudible of you to retest the student at sixteen. This is not a Kukkiwon requirement, but I think that it is a good idea. Aside from the obvious benefit of putting the student through the adult test, it also allows the student an opportunity to really show how far they have come since their last testing, whatever poom rank it may have been.
> 
> Daniel


What is this thread for anyways then? All kids under 16 are pooms and not dans so what are we all discussing as what is stated above is pretty much what is being done. Even my son and daughter are pooms and not dans. I thought pooms were Jr. Black Belts.


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## terryl965

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I firmly agree that the poom system or its equivalent in other orgs/schools is a good idea. I am of the opininion that poom students should wear a poom belt, but ultimately,that is a decision of the school owner. Different schools handle it differently, and I respect their decision, even if I do not agree.
> 
> I also think that it is very laudible of you to retest the student at sixteen. This is not a Kukkiwon requirement, but I think that it is a good idea. Aside from the obvious benefit of putting the student through the adult test, it also allows the student an opportunity to really show how far they have come since their last testing, whatever poom rank it may have been.
> 
> Daniel


 

Daniel thank you first off and just a side note you are right no test required and I have had some students leave and go to other school to get there Dan rank. That is fine in the end they will understand that a second test should be required and additional material is needed to be that Dan rank. I have also had some of them same student come back to re-test a year later and said I finally get what you was saying about a test between Poom and Dan rank those are some of the happines moments as an instructor.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> What is this thread for anyways then?


The one in which it is posted.



ATC said:


> All kids under 16 are pooms and not dans so what are we all discussing as what is stated above is pretty much what is being done. Even my son and daughter are pooms and not dans. I thought pooms were Jr. Black Belts.


A poom is a junior rank, but it is not a dan grade.  Like dan-bo, it is a grade between keup grade and dan grade.  Poom rank students are not yudanja.  

There is a poom belt which is half black and half red, as well as a poom dobok with a black/red collar.  Being a poom does not make one a BB automatically.  It is at the discretion of the school owner.  If *that* school puts half red/half black belts onto their first poom students, then those students are *not* black belts.  

On the other hand, if another school puts a black belt with gold stitched letters and a stripe onto a first poom student, then in *that* school, the student is considered a black belt. 

TKDFather's son wears a black belt with a single stripe (I presume, based on the graphic in his sig.).  Most Kukkiwon schools follow suit.  In schools that do that, the student is a black belt.

But the belt is technically not the rank.

Daniel


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## TKD_Father

Daniel Sullivan said:


> TKDFather's son wears a black belt with a single stripe (I presume, based on the graphic in his sig.).  Most Kukkiwon schools follow suit.  In schools that do that, the student is a black belt.
> 
> But the belt is technically not the rank.


Correct, his belt has a single stripe with his name  embroidered on one side (in English) and the school/federation is on the other (in Hangul).

His Kukkiwon paperwork has been submitted. Once approved, as I understand it, he will be considered a 1st Poom in the eyes of the Kukkiwon until he reaches the age of 14 when his Poom rank will become his Dan rank. Within the walls of his school he is considered a 1st Dan, which is the same belt he competes as.


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## The Last Legionary

Any school can issue any rank they want to any one at any time. You might have to complete a 36 hour hell trial or just wait until the check clears. At the end of the day, outside your school, that rank means ziltch. Nada. Nutin Huny! Some schools are like Harvard, their ranks carry weight. Others are like your local community college, and carry a lot less. I will say this, and 12 yr old who knows the material better than some 12 years in adult, well, that adult needs to step up...and maybe get checked for cooties. 

That is all.


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## Daniel Sullivan

TKD_Father said:


> Correct, his belt has a single stripe with his name embroidered on one side (in English) and the school/federation is on the other (in Hangul).
> 
> His Kukkiwon paperwork has been submitted. Once approved, as I understand it, he will be considered a 1st Poom in the eyes of the Kukkiwon until he reaches the age of 14 when his Poom rank will become his Dan rank. Within the walls of his school he is considered a 1st Dan, which is the same belt he competes as.


You have hit the nail on the head!  Though the age of conversion is fifteen, not fourteen (see article 8 of the Kukkiwon regs: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01).  Essentially, anyone under fifteen can get to poom ranks.  Also, fourth poom does not convert until  the student is eighteen.

On a side note, belt colors are, to a great degree, arbitrary.  Black is _generally_ dan grade and white is _generally_ ungraded.  But beyond that, all bets are off.

If I say that I am a red belt, in TKD schools, depending on the GM, I could be almost a black or just under yellow.  On the other hand, if I say that I am first keup, there is no confusion.  

Regardless of what color belt a child is wearing, to get to poom grade is an accomplishment for the student to be proud of.  If the student stays with it, higher poom grades are likewise a great accomplishment for the student and the future dan grades will be that much sweeter.

One last thing: let us not forget that the whole reason for the poom grade is to provide a student who starts very young a means of continuing past first keup while keeping them in a safe setting.  It is mainly to prevent an eighteen year old first dan from being paired up in full contact sparring with a ten year old, who's body is not yet grown and developed, regardless of relative skill.  

It is not to demean the student or that student's hard work.  And yes, young kids are capable of hard work.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist

let's get a few things right here.

CHILDREN getting Dan ranks is BAD for EVERYONE

here is why:

it builds false confidance in the child which can get them killed

It makes the art as a WHOLE a joke (yeah, TKD, where even 3 yr olds can be blackbelts)

it makes every adult that actually EARNED thier Dan rank the equal of  7 year old that still wets the bed but who's check cleared and POOF, he gets a black belt

last but not least, it is FRAUD. The parents pay and pay and pay and they THINK they and their kid is getting real training, but they are NOT

I DONT CARE how good your "Grandmaster" is, if the student is 3 he/she is NOT "learning karate".

REAL martial artists have a duty to stamp out this garbage or at least call it out. This "live and let live" crap is just that, CRAP

Silence is just passive endorsement.

30 years ago, when you heard "he's a black belt" you backed up....now, you tell someone you are a blackbelt, they say "so what, so's my 4 year old"


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## shesulsa

I have to mainly agree with TF on this.

You just have to see the look on people's faces (who don't train, btw, and have never been exposed to martial arts in any way except the school they're in, the competitions they watch and the movies they see) when they announce their 10-yr-old will be testing for second degree.

It is the look of brainwash.  The eyes glitter as though they know something you don't.  They hold a pride in a belt they bought and paid for in an art very few people have much respect for anymore for the very reasons they are proud of.  Try to tell them different and your opinion just doesn't matter because ... you don't know that school or that kid or that teacher.

I know - let's just pass out driver's licenses at the age of 10, voter registration cards at 12 and lower the drinking age to 14.

Sound ridiculous?  Selling a family a pretend black belt (poom rank) is just as bad IMNSHO (with the *very* rare exception of a gifted student).


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## ATC

I just want to add that there is no difference in testing requirements for a Poom or Dan. The test is the same for kids as it is for adults. They even test togeather during the same test. The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff. Adults tend to have a better grasp of the knowledge behind the principles.


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## Daniel Sullivan

For the most part, you and I are on the same page;


Twin Fist said:


> CHILDREN getting Dan ranks is BAD for EVERYONE


Yes, I agree; children being awarded *dan* ranks is generally not a good practice. 

Definitely, a poom is not a dan. As I have stated in previous threads, poom rank students _should_ wear a poom belt in my opinion (or they should be the most wicked tough elementary school kids in the county). If they are awarded a black belt, then that is between them, their parents, and their teacher. 

Having said that, I am not responsible for what the dojo down the street does, nor does what they do reflect on me. 



Twin Fist said:


> it builds false confidance in the child which can get them killed


Potentially (likely more often than not), though it depends on how it is presented. If the student is told that all it means is that they have learned the basic curriculum and are now simply more advanced beginners, then no harm no foul. 

However, if the instructor is telling eight year olds that by virtue of a black piece of cloth that they are now a veritable fighting machine who can take on all comers, then the instructor is indeed doing the child a disservice.

Likewise, if the training is little more than Romperoom daycare with karate-ish exercise, then a black belt is not the appropriate reward.



Twin Fist said:


> It makes the art as a WHOLE a joke (yeah, TKD, where even 3 yr olds can be blackbelts)


I think that this is an overstatement. It makes a good number of TKD schools a joke perhaps, but not all of them and not the art itself. The effectiveness of techniques do not change simply because someone put a black belt on an eight year old.

I think that I would rather have my students known for being *my* students than for the belt around their waist.


Twin Fist said:


> it makes every adult that actually EARNED thier Dan rank the equal of 7 year old that still wets the bed but who's check cleared and POOF, he gets a black belt


I cannot agree with you here. It is like saying that a guy who gets his degree from a disreputable online school somehow invalidates the degree that I got from Georgetown (hypothetical; I do not have a college degree). 

In the academic world, people know what degrees mean something and which ones are just fluff. Same in martial arts. 

From a funtionality standpoint, it actually works to my benefit. If someone decides to try me out because I have a bb in TKD and he thinks it is crap, how much more embarassed will he be after I clean his clock? Could also work to my benefit if the burglar tries to sue me; "Your honor, I know that I have a black belt, but so does my eight year old."



Twin Fist said:


> last but not least, it is FRAUD. The parents pay and pay and pay and they THINK they and their kid is getting real training, but they are NOT


Whether or not a kid is getting real training is a different matter from what color belt is being handed out after first keup. It also depends on the age of the child. A ten year old is a child and so is a five year old. But I can train the ten year old in much more specific material, while the five year old will basically be getting coordination drills in the form of kicks and punches and learning some lessons in behavior.

Also, I have seen schools that charge next to nothing that have child BB's, so it is not always about money. Some instructors just have a very different mindset.



Twin Fist said:


> I DONT CARE how good your "Grandmaster" is, if the student is 3 he/she is NOT "learning karate".


THANK YOU!! I see so many people say, "my __th dan GM and a couple of __th dan masters say that my son/daughter deserves it, so they do." The rank of the person telling you this does not mean that it is so. It does not mean that they are wrong either, but just remember that it is sometimes (not always) in the financial interest of the school to do so.



Twin Fist said:


> REAL martial artists have a duty to stamp out this garbage or at least call it out. This "live and let live" crap is just that, CRAP


While calling out nonsense is admiriable, I think that the term 'real martial artists' is so vague as to be meaningless. I do not know if Terry puts a black belt on his poom students, but if he did because it was the only way to keep his school open, and he changed absolutely nothing else, would he be any less real? 



Twin Fist said:


> 30 years ago, when you heard "he's a black belt" you backed up....now, you tell someone you are a blackbelt, they say "so what, so's my 4 year old"


I hear you! 

Though in my experience, it is still that way with the majority of people. There are people that I know who are scared of me because they know that I have one. They have no reason to be; I do not consider myself much of a tough guy and they are all people that I generally like anyway. But once they found out that I have that belt, they started treating me differently.

There are others who are not scared of me, but treat me with greater respect because they admire the hard work that it takes to get a black belt.

The 'they' you mention still knows that his four year old is just a four year old who completed a childrens' program. If 'they' do not, then they are deluded and their opinion is meaningless anyway.

Daniel


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## Bob Hubbard

I realize you all are talking mostly about TKD, but the problem is industry wide.  There are 3 schools at least in WNY where they have 5yr old "senseis". Yes, automatic promotion to teacher once you get a black belt, with 1 school braggin that no one ever fails their tests "because the instruction is top notch". Another school the head instructor walks you step by step through your forms and techniques during your black belt test. (adult and kids classes, saw it in both).

This is why I hold a low opinion of rank period, and look instead at the persons knowledge, smoothness and confidence, plus what others more knowledgeable on the particular art(s) in question say about them, rather than the color of their belt.


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## terryl965

ATC said:


> I just want to add that there is no difference in testing requirements for a Poom or Dan. The test is the same for kids as it is for adults. They even test togeather during the same test. The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff. Adults tend to have a better grasp of the knowledge behind the principles.


 

ATC you are right the requirement are exactly the same, this is where the instructor needs to step in and make them harder and more in depth than a Poom rank. In no way do I ever call my own childern a Dan until they re-take there adult test and pass it. I own and operate a great school, I do not and will not accept rank that is not at all at my standards. I mean we have to understand the difference between what is and is not right. Not saying that little Johnny does not deserve his rank at his school but if little Johnny came to my school and did not know any ground or SD principle little Johnny would go down in rank and retrained for what I teach. As you know I do both Olympic and Traditional TKD and teach both to all my students so we have never had that problem. Every parent that signs up understand my way of thinking and the meaning I hold for a BB. 

One thing I truely wish is people would recognized the difference in the rank between a junior and an adult? It would make life so much easier.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> I just want to add that there is no difference in testing requirements for a Poom or Dan.


Kukkiwon requirements are so general that that officially, there does not need to be.



ATC said:


> The test is the same for kids as it is for adults. They even test togeather during the same test. The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff. Adults tend to have a better grasp of the knowledge behind the principles.


I am not picking at you, but since you say that the tests are the same, define same:

Do you mean identical?  As in break the same number of the same thickness boards?  Or do the children get to break fewer and/or  thinner boards? 

Do the same number of kicks with the same degree of power and snap?  Or are they expected to do the kick with power and snap reasonable for a child their age?

If their is a written section, is their paper graded by the same standards as that of the adults?

Lastly, in the sparring section, do the eight year olds have to spar adults who are expected to go full boar and full contact?  Or do they spar other kids their own age and size?

Chances are, the tests are the same format but are not identical, either in the implementation or in the weighting (usually, it is the weighting and the sparring that is different).

Or is the adult test simply adjusted so that it can be passed by a skillful child?

I am not judging your school, by the way.  Just consider that kids are very *rarely* graded as adults. 

Daniel


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## shesulsa

ATC said:


> I just want to add that there is no difference in testing requirements for a Poom or Dan. The test is the same for kids as it is for adults. They even test togeather during the same test. The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff. Adults tend to have a better grasp of the knowledge behind the principles.



Well ... I think that speaks to the quality of the sport and really ... not much more need be said than that.

:asian:


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## Twin Fist

PLEASE tell me you are making this crap up




Bob Hubbard said:


> I realize you all are talking mostly about TKD, but the problem is industry wide.  There are 3 schools at least in WNY where they have 5yr old "senseis". Yes, automatic promotion to teacher once you get a black belt, with 1 school braggin that no one ever fails their tests "because the instruction is top notch". Another school the head instructor walks you step by step through your forms and techniques during your black belt test. (adult and kids classes, saw it in both).


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## dancingalone

> The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff.



This tells me you do little in the way of throws, locks, or pins.  Not that there's anything wrong with that as the majority of TKD schools don't either.

Even in schools that focus exclusively on that type of material (like my wife's aikido dojo for example), the children have much trouble assimilating material that requires physical sensitivity, and when you compare adults and children with the same amount of mat experience, the adults come out way ahead.


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## dancingalone

Another skill set children have trouble with:  kobudo or traditional Okinawan weapons practice with sai, nunchaku, bo, eku, tonfa, etc.  Most children just don't have the hand-eye coordination to work with these weapons, and Lord spare me from the various Tiny Tiger programs that come equipped with those foam nunchuks.

But again kobudo practice is hardly common in most TKD schools.  There are some exceptions, thankfully.


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## Twin Fist

in my experience,the younger the kid the LONGER it takes to learn basic movements. 

I have ONE 7 year old, he takes on average 1/2 again as long as his 14 year old brother to learn a movement

i told his parents it would likely take him 6-7 years to make BB instead of the average 4 1/2


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## Bob Hubbard

Twin Fist said:


> PLEASE tell me you are making this crap up


Nope. Sadly I'm not.


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## Xinglu

I've seen it out here too.  Bob is not making this up...


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## ATC

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Kukkiwon requirements are so general that that officially, there does not need to be.


We go way above and beyond the KKW test requirements 



> I am not picking at you, but since you say that the tests are the same, define same:
> 
> Do you mean identical? As in break the same number of the same thickness boards? Or do the children get to break fewer and/or thinner boards?


The same. All black belts and Jr. BB are required to break three 1 inch boards with three different techniques. Most adults stick to one board per technique but you can choose to do more if you like. However if you fail to do that more you fail.

You are also required to break 1 brick with the technique of the instructors choice. Most kids only break the 1. Most adults choose between 2 and 4 and some (me included) went as high as 7. Only one guy ever did 9. Same rule applies. You only have to break 1 but if you choose more then you better break them or you fail. 3 attemps at the number you chose.



> Do the same number of kicks with the same degree of power and snap? Or are they expected to do the kick with power and snap reasonable for a child their age?


Well more mass means more power but most of the kids I see test have better snap than the adults. The kids usually perform a much more technically correct kick than the adults.



> If their is a written section, is their paper graded by the same standards as that of the adults?


The same. I will PM you my daughters 1st poom written essay.



> Lastly, in the sparring section, do the eight year olds have to spar adults who are expected to go full boar and full contact? Or do they spar other kids their own age and size?


This is the one question that is a depends for the answer. Most spar kids their own age and size relitivley, but there have been a few that were matched up against old kids. I would say 5 - 7 years difference depending on the individual. There are some on our sparring team that frankly many of our adults just can touch.



> Chances are, the tests are the same format but are not identical, either in the implementation or in the weighting (usually, it is the weighting and the sparring that is different).


Maybe the sparring but that is about it. Also the SD is pitted againts kids of same stature.



> Or is the adult test simply adjusted so that it can be passed by a skillful child?


Most adults find the test more difficult then the children. I am not sure why there is this under estimation of what a child is capable of. When it comes to pure physical testing, children have more endurance than most adults. Yes an adult can lift more and punch and kick harder but that is mass and weight not physical ability.

A kid that weighs 70 lbs can do as many if not more pushups than a man at 200+ lbs. That goes for situps, squats, kicks and anyother simple exercise. Now I would not expect that same kid to press 200 lbs. but lifting weights is not a part of the test.



> I am not judging your school, by the way. Just consider that kids are very *rarely* graded as adults.
> 
> Daniel


Once you reach BB, poom, dan, whatever you want to call it there should be no difference. If the child cannot do it then they will not test or will fail. We only hand out test to those we know are prepared and can pass it.

We have had a few fail. Maybe they did not make all there breaks, or maybe they failed the fittness part of the test. But they should fail if that is the case. It just means you have to wait one more year is all.

With all that said there are also levels of BB at each rank as well. Some barely pass as other pass with flying colors. Two same ranked BB do not mean that they are equal.


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## ATC

dancingalone said:


> Another skill set children have trouble with: kobudo or traditional Okinawan weapons practice with sai, nunchaku, bo, eku, tonfa, etc. Most children just don't have the hand-eye coordination to work with these weapons, and Lord spare me from the various Tiny Tiger programs that come equipped with those foam nunchuks.
> 
> But again kobudo practice is hardly common in most TKD schools. There are some exceptions, thankfully.


What!?! Have you ever watched the old ESPN ISKA Tournaments that use to come on. There were many kids 11 and under that worked weapons just as good if not better than many adults. I can pull up any number of them right now on YouTube.


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## ATC

dancingalone said:


> This tells me you do little in the way of throws, locks, or pins. Not that there's anything wrong with that as the majority of TKD schools don't either.
> 
> Even in schools that focus exclusively on that type of material (like my wife's aikido dojo for example), the children have much trouble assimilating material that requires physical sensitivity, and when you compare adults and children with the same amount of mat experience, the adults come out way ahead.


At the extreams yes. But there are always exceptions. Plus that kid that started when they were young will be light years ahead once they reach 18 even. A kid that starts at 4 and sticks with his art will be light years ahead of any adult that tries to start at an adult age.


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## ATC

shesulsa said:


> Well ... I think that speaks to the quality of the sport and really ... not much more need be said than that.
> 
> :asian:


All I can say is that we have many adults that strugle way more than the kids do. Including myself. Kids have the time to dedicate every day to training, adults don't. Kids recover much faster than adults and take little time off for injury. Most kids move more in a day than most adults move in a week. Seems like much more is needed to be said if you don't realize that kids (not toddlers or babies) can push way past that of what most adults can.

Even our Jr. competition classes are more demanding than our Sr. competition classes. Most 3 day a week adults would pass out if put through some of the stuff I see these 10 - 14 year old go through.


----------



## ATC

terryl965 said:


> ATC you are right the requirement are exactly the same, this is where the instructor needs to step in and make them harder and more in depth than a Poom rank. In no way do I ever call my own childern a Dan until they re-take there adult test and pass it. I own and operate a great school, I do not and will not accept rank that is not at all at my standards. I mean we have to understand the difference between what is and is not right. Not saying that little Johnny does not deserve his rank at his school but if little Johnny came to my school and did not know any ground or SD principle little Johnny would go down in rank and retrained for what I teach. As you know I do both Olympic and Traditional TKD and teach both to all my students so we have never had that problem. Every parent that signs up understand my way of thinking and the meaning I hold for a BB.
> 
> One thing I truely wish is people would recognized the difference in the rank between a junior and an adult? It would make life so much easier.


I have no dissagreements with anything you said, but none the less the test are the same. We go way above and beyond that of which KKW requires but we still apply it to both Jr's and Sr's. If the Jr can't hack it he wont test let alone pass. The also applies for the Sr's as well.


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## dancingalone

ATC said:


> What!?! Have you ever watched the old ESPN ISKA Tournaments that use to come on. There were many kids 11 and under that worked weapons just as good if not better than many adults. I can pull up any number of them right now on YouTube.




Worlds apart from "real" kobudo practice, ATC.  I understand you've been exposed almost exclusively to sport weapons work...If you're that interested do some research into traditional weapon work, the grips, the weight of the weapon, etc.  The pretty twirling you see with the ultralight staves at those ISKA tournies just can't be done with a bo of the correct weight and dimensions, unless you're a big strong man with super strong wrists and fingers.  

Aside from that, look at the TECHNIQUE of the staff wielder.  It's obviously just fast and flashy and would not stand against someone wielding a staff AGAINST them.  The blocks wouldn't hold, the strikes couldn't pop, and so on.

Not trying to be rude, but come on.  ISKA?


----------



## dancingalone

ATC said:


> At the extreams yes. But there are always exceptions. Plus that kid that started when they were young will be light years ahead once they reach 18 even. A kid that starts at 4 and sticks with his art will be light years ahead of any adult that tries to start at an adult age.



Sure with punch/kick material.  

You can't teach much more than that to a child because their tendons and joints are not properly grown yet and they're just not bodily aware yet to avoid serious injury to themselves or to others.  I've expressed this opinion before on other threads:  If you are confining yourself to a "simple" punchy, kicky system, then I definitely could see a child being able to learn the system to an expert level.  Anything above that to make the system a complete one in my opinion, well not so much.

By the way there's nothing wrong with punchy/kicky systems.  They work after all.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> We go way above and beyond the KKW test requirements


That is not difficult, and I would gather that most schools do.  The KKW requirements are just enough to insure commonality between KKW schools.  They expect the individual schools to add to it.



ATC said:


> more mass means more power but most of the kids I see test have better snap than the adults. The kids usually perform a much more technically correct kick than the adults.
> 
> Most adults find the test more difficult then the children. I am not sure why there is this under estimation of what a child is capable of. When it comes to pure physical testing, children have more endurance than most adults. Yes an adult can lift more and punch and kick harder but that is mass and weight not physical ability.


I find this to be, well, weird.  I believe you; you are there to see it and I am not, but my experience has been different.  Most kids are usually less precise than the adults.  In terms of endurance, it depends greatly on the kid and the adult, so depending upon the mix, I could see that, though again, that has not been the norm in my experience.

I did not quote the rest of your post; my only comment is that it sounds like a respectable test by any measure.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> At the extreams yes. But there are always exceptions. Plus that kid that started when they were young will be light years ahead once they reach 18 even. A kid that starts at 4 and sticks with his art will be light years ahead of any adult that tries to start at an adult age.


I would definitely not go that far.

Way too many variables to make a statement that general.  Starting young does not mean much if they only go to class a couple time a week and do not practice in between, take lengthy breaks along the way (not uncommon, as kids have a good amount of their time spoken for for much of the year) or are never challenged to any great degree.  Starting at a young age is an advantage, but only if the child trains consistently and correctly and is challenged appropriately along the way. 

By the same token, an athletic adult who trains hard and focuses on the details, practices hard outside of class, and has the right instructor can most certainly surpass someone who has had lackluster training since they were eight.

The biggest thing that I notice about practitioners who started young and really took to it is that everything they do is very, very relaxed and natural, while those who start later in life have to work very hard to be anywhere near that relaxed and natural, and even then generally do not achieve it to the same degree.  Note: that does not make them an inferior practitioner; there are a lot of other factors beyond just that.

In this, I speak from experience.  I started at seven and Jet Li, I am not.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> Sure with punch/kick material.
> 
> You can't teach much more than that to a child because their tendons and joints are not properly grown yet and they're just not bodily aware yet to avoid serious injury to themselves or to others.


This is probably my biggest reason for being against pushing a child to a BB level before they are ready.

Daniel


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## ATC

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would definitely not go that far.
> 
> Way too many variables to make a statement that general. Starting young does not mean much if they only go to class a couple time a week and do not practice in between, take lengthy breaks along the way (not uncommon, as kids have a good amount of their time spoken for for much of the year) or are never challenged to any great degree. Starting at a young age is an advantage, but only if the child trains consistently and correctly and is challenged appropriately along the way.
> 
> By the same token, an athletic adult who trains hard and focuses on the details, practices hard outside of class, and has the right instructor can most certainly surpass someone who has had lackluster training since they were eight.
> 
> The biggest thing that I notice about practitioners who started young and really took to it is that everything they do is very, very relaxed and natural, while those who start later in life have to work very hard to be anywhere near that relaxed and natural, and even then generally do not achieve it to the same degree. Note: that does not make them an inferior practitioner; there are a lot of other factors beyond just that.
> 
> In this, I speak from experience. I started at seven and Jet Li, I am not.
> 
> Daniel


Yes I have to agree with you here. I am talking about the kids that starts at 4 and took no time off. The kids that in part are the masters sons or daughters. The kids that are in the dojang from open to close just about everyday. Not the kids that come twice a week for 45 minutes those two days. Not the kids that don't practice at home. Not the kids that take off from age 7 then get back into at age 20.

I will admit that I am at the extream end or the exception to the rule type kid. I will agree that most of what eveyone states is true for the most part. But just like eveything in life there are exceptions. 10 year old college students. 12 year old music geniuses. Tiger woods type golfers that were playing adults at 10 and 11 on adult courses. All I am trying to get across is that there are some out there that are way above the curve.

Yes most kids fall in that WTF (and I don't mean World Taekwondo Federation) was that?! But just about every dojang/dojo has one special above the norm kid. Now it is weather they develope or hinder such kid. If all think like most on here then such diamond will be lost. I think more people should help promote kids not hold them back. Kids are capable of way more than we give them credit for.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> I will admit that I am at the extream end or the exception to the rule type kid. I will agree that most of what eveyone states is true for the most part. But just like eveything in life there are exceptions. 10 year old college students. 12 year old music geniuses. Tiger woods type golfers that were playing adults at 10 and 11 on adult courses. All I am trying to get across is that there are some out there that are way above the curve.
> 
> Yes most kids fall in that WTF (and I don't mean World Taekwondo Federation) was that?! But just about every dojang/dojo has one special above the norm kid. Now it is weather they develope or hinder such kid. If all think like most on here then such diamond will be lost. I think more people should help promote kids not hold them back. Kids are capable of way more than we give them credit for.


You just sumarized a good portion of the reasons why I do not believe in child BB's.  Yes, I do feel that there are exceptions, and those exceptions should not be held back due to their age.  But they are still the exception.

On the other hand, I am also a very firm believer in childrens' programs.  Childrens' programs should have their own set of belts and be geared towards basics, self confidence, respect, and age appropriate physical developement, all of which can involve games and fun exercises that will build up the child and be fun.  A good childrens' program benefits the child, the parents, the school, and ultimately, the community.  A childrens' program should be a childrens' program.  If you have a Martial Mozart, he should be shifted to a regular class.  Kids graduating from the childrens' class and moving into the regular class should then start at whatever belt comes right after white belt and should start getting a traditionally structured MA class with tighter discipline, greater regimentation, and a focus on technical execution of the material.

On the subject of a regular class, I feel that once kids get about middle school, they should be in an age appropriate regular class.  By regular class, I mean a rigorous class, the same that I would expect a twenty year old to be in.  By age appropriate, I mean from about 6th grade through about freshmen year of high school.  Sophomore year, kids are either fifteen going in, or will be fifteen that year and should be in with the older teens and adults.

My reason for an age appropriate class is that tweens and high school freshmen can still be held to the same standard as the adults, but can be worked with to help bring up their maturation and also not be subjected to a level of sparring for which they are not physically ready.  Mentally though, middle schoolers and freshmen are ready for a regular class.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram

dancingalone said:


> Another skill set children have trouble with: kobudo or traditional Okinawan weapons practice with sai, nunchaku, bo, eku, tonfa, etc. Most children just don't have the hand-eye coordination to work with these weapons, and Lord spare me from the various Tiny Tiger programs that come equipped with those foam nunchuks.


 
I have to ask this, ..though I agree kids may not start out with the coordination, wouldn't proper kobudo training help them develope it?  



> But again kobudo practice is hardly common in most TKD schools. There are some exceptions, thankfully.


Has this topic been addressed in MT before?  I would be interested in knowing who does teach weapons in their TKD school and where they learned it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

miguksaram said:


> I have to ask this, ..though I agree kids may not start out with the coordination, wouldn't proper kobudo training help them develope it?
> 
> 
> Has this topic been addressed in MT before? I would be interested in knowing who does teach weapons in their TKD school and where they learned it.


Sounds like a good idea for a new thread to distract us all from the recurring theme of kiddie belts, though it is certain to creep into that topic as well.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone

miguksaram said:


> I have to ask this, ..though I agree kids may not start out with the coordination, wouldn't proper kobudo training help them develope it?



I think it's too much at once to take in.  Keep in mind a big of part of martial arts is learning to move and strike with your whole body while maintaining a concept of self in the center (dan tien, whatever).  Now you want to add in a weapon that will extend that concept of centeredness into a potentially much bigger zone?  How do you even explain concepts like centering and rooting to a child without dumbing it down to where the discussion is at a pointless level and where you in fact start introducing incorrect elements because you are trying to use other words?  Moreover, where do you get correct, scaled down versions of the weapons for children without selling the farm?  The foam trash for sale is a non-starter in my opinion as they actually promote WRONG technique because of their weight and lack of resistance.  



> Has this topic been addressed in MT before?  I would be interested in knowing who does teach weapons in their TKD school and where they learned it.



I learned the bo and the nunchaku at my "Texas Tae Kwon Do" school, but the teacher pulled the material from his studies in karate.  Luckily he taught me rather well, so when I later hooked up with a kobudo teacher from the Taira lineage my prior learning served me well.

I understand Mr. Kim Soo's Chayon-ryu system also contains weapon work.  If you backtrack through his lineage and find other Korean teachers that still practice the pre-Kwan unification curricula, you will likewise find what exists as kobudo inside tae kwon do.


----------



## miguksaram

dancingalone said:


> I think it's too much at once to take in. Keep in mind a big of part of martial arts is learning to move and strike with your whole body while maintaining a concept of self in the center (dan tien, whatever). Now you want to add in a weapon that will extend that concept of centeredness into a potentially much bigger zone? How do you even explain concepts like centering and rooting to a child without dumbing it down to where the discussion is at a pointless level and where you in fact start introducing incorrect elements because you are trying to use other words? Moreover, where do you get correct, scaled down versions of the weapons for children without selling the farm? The foam trash for sale is a non-starter in my opinion as they actually promote WRONG technique because of their weight and lack of resistance.


 
Age does play a factor.  We have found that younger kids tend to take a while longer to figure things out.  It happens, but just at a slower pace.  You can get smaller weapons for the kids.  Century makes bo, sai and kama on smaller sizes and they are not the padded ones.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> PLEASE tell me you are making this crap up


I wish that Bob was halucinating, but he is right.  It is everywhere.  And in some cases, worse than what he described.

Daniel


----------



## ATC

dancingalone said:


> Worlds apart from "real" kobudo practice, ATC. I understand you've been exposed almost exclusively to sport weapons work...If you're that interested do some research into traditional weapon work, the grips, the weight of the weapon, etc. The pretty twirling you see with the ultralight staves at those ISKA tournies just can't be done with a bo of the correct weight and dimensions, unless you're a big strong man with super strong wrists and fingers.
> 
> Aside from that, look at the TECHNIQUE of the staff wielder. It's obviously just fast and flashy and would not stand against someone wielding a staff AGAINST them. The blocks wouldn't hold, the strikes couldn't pop, and so on.
> 
> Not trying to be rude, but come on. ISKA?


I get your point but in reality no one is carrying around real weapons anymore let alone really fighthing with them. They are only for sport and that is it. Well here in the US anyways. Carry one let alone use it and you will find yourself in jail. So all those points are moot. If you are using your time to practice a weapon for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any weapon in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.

Weapons training is only for show and nothing else. I have never seen anyone carrying a bo or sai or sword down the street for protection. Maybe in the 600's or so but not today.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Since Gorilla started this thread and his son is twelve, and as the age of twelve has been mentioned several times on this thread as too young for a first degree BB, I would like to point out that twelve is a bit of a nebulous age in regards to kids' first degree black belts.

Here is a scenario to consider:

At Kim Norris Lee's Traditional Taekwondo Academy (does not exist, but it sounded cool), two students join one Friday night in 2007.

*Student 1:* A lady five feet, two inches tall who weighs 108 pounds joins the school at the age of twenty. She wants to be able to feel more secure on campus as a young lady away from home (she just transferred from a community college to a larger university to finish her degree work and is away from home for the first time). 

*Student 2:* A ten year old girl who is teeny tiny and cute as a button. There have been reports of gang activity in the area and the parents want their little girl to be able to defend herself. Both go to class four days a week and practice in between classes. Both attend seminars when available, compete (and do well) in tournaments, work their backsides off and really do well. 

Two years go by.

The now twenty two year old lady and the now twelve year old girl are at their black belt testing. It is a good day; they have both worked hard and looked forward to this day. Both have improved tremendously since starting. Both attended the same class. Both are equally good in any visible way. Only one thing has changed significantly: when the little girl started, she was teeny tiny and came up to the twenty two year old's shoulder. Now, at twelve, she is five foot three, weighs 110 pounds, and can really take it to her twenty two year old counterpart.

They test, they both test well, they spar the same selection of opponents. They spar eachother. The test ends. Both students pass. Teach presents them each with their certificates and a black belt. The twenty two year old has a certificate that reads, "First dan" while the twelve year old has one that reads, "First poom."

Now, the twenty two year old and the mom of the twelve year old have become good friends and join Martialtalk and post about spanking new black belts!! The twenty two year old is given a whole host of congratulatory replies. The mom of the twelve year old gets a few of those, but also gets a few of these:

"Your kid is twelve. She is not a real black belt."

In what way is that twelve year old girl's black belt any less real or less earned than the twenty two year old lady's in this scenario?

Before you say that I have come up with the one scenario that would be the exception, it is not _that_ uncommon. I could easily substitute twenty two year old woman with twenty two year old male college student and a twelve year old junior high student who are of equal physical stature and began training at the same time. And yes, I have seen it happen minus the Martial talk part.

Yes, I do feel that twelve is too young for a third degree, both poom or dan, but for a kid to earn his or her first black belt, there are twelve year olds who certainly can make the cut.

Daniel


----------



## ATC

miguksaram said:


> Age does play a factor. We have found that younger kids tend to take a while longer to figure things out. It happens, but just at a slower pace..


How young are we talking about? 2 - 7 maybe but 8 and up are pretty aware and pick things up quite fast. Most 10 year olds can be shown a form maybe twice and boom they got the basic moves. Yes the details need to be refined but I have taught full grown adults that have taken quite a bit more time than my 10 - 14 year olds do.


----------



## dancingalone

ATC said:


> I get your point but in reality no one is carrying around real weapons anymore let alone really fighthing with them. They are only for sport and that is it. Well here in the US anyways. Carry one let alone use it and you will find yourself in jail. So all those points are moot. If you are using your time to practice a weapon for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any weapon in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.
> 
> Weapons training is only for show and nothing else. I have never seen anyone carrying a bo or sai or sword down the street for protection. Maybe in the 600's or so but not today.



You do realize that plenty of common household items can be reappropriated as a weapon, I hope.  Shovel or rake  =  bo.  Hand trowel = sai.  Toy rifle = tonfa.  And so on.

You're mistaken if you don't think kobudo practice leads to relevant weapon skills even if we don't walk across Asia in sandals carrying swords and wearing topknots.  There's a whole universe of goodies out there in the traditional martial arts.


----------



## ATC

dancingalone said:


> You do realize that plenty of common household items can be reappropriated as a weapon, I hope. Shovel or rake = bo. Hand trowel = sai. Toy rifle = tonfa. And so on.


Sure I do. But again you can't use them to defend yourself. I know I spent 30 days in a cell for doing such. Even though the guy I cracked with a pizza peel came into a place that I was working at used a beer bottle as a weapon demanding money. Also most times there won't be such items around. I only can name the one time and I was at a place of work. The other 100 plus fights I was in over my life time had nothing around to use but my hands.



> You're mistaken if you don't think kobudo practice leads to relevant weapon skills even if we don't walk across Asia in sandals carrying swords and wearing topknots. There's a whole universe of goodies out there in the traditional martial arts.


No I am not. I have been in some real down and dirty stuff over my life time. Most I am not proud of as I was really out of hand in my younger days. Even spent time in jail for some of my stupid acts and very rarelly were there ever any practical objects that could use in a traditional MA sense. Maybe a chair and even then the action is so fast and furious that most of what is taught in a MA weapons class won't work. No one swings and then recoils when blocked and then strikes again. They just swing, push, kick and run into all at the same time.

I even use a pair of nunchucks on a guy once and split his head wide open. The guy kept fighting like nothing happened until the cops came, then when the fight was broken up and he calmed down he passed out from the hit. But he still fought like a mad man until the fight was broken up. If you think you are learning weapons to be on some battle field then you are mistaken.

Practice with a bow and then have to use a rake that you are not practicing with I bet you make a mistake just from the balance difference of the weapon. Even the any military practices with what they will use in a selfdefence situation. You can't practice with a nice weighted weapon, perfect leangth, then expect to pick up anything and use it as you think you will. Not in the heat of the momemt.

Plus all that is moot anyway cause unless your life is in danger and they better be pointing a gun or weilding a sword or stick at you, you can't use any weapon at all anyways.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> I get your point but in reality no one is carrying around real weapons anymore let alone really fighthing with them. They are only for sport and that is it. Well here in the US anyways. Carry one let alone use it and you will find yourself in jail. So all those points are moot.


Not true. The JHU student who defended himself from an attacker with a nihonto, killing the attacker, was not charged so far as I know. Some state laws may actually allow for the carrying of a sword. Maryland law states that any blade over a specific length must not be concealed. Carry it openly and you may get heckled, but not locked up.



ATC said:


> If you are using your time to practice a weapon for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any weapon in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.


I am sorry, but this is just ignorant. I could easily make the same arguement back with just a few slight changes:

_If you are using your time to practice taekwondo for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any style of taekwondo in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it._

And if I made that comment then it would be equally ignorant.



ATC said:


> Weapons training is only for show and nothing else.


 Okay, I hope that you realize that you have just insulted everyone on this board who trains in a weapon art or weapon related koryo art. 


ATC said:


> I have never seen anyone carrying a bo or sai or sword down the street for protection. Maybe in the 600's or so but not today.


 
I strongly disagree with you on this. I regularly see people around the neighborhood in the evenings who walk with sticks, from escrima stick size up to a hanbo. I am one of them. If you choose to to try to mug me, I will happily demonstrate that my skills with my weapon are most definitely *not* just for show.  And those tonfas and short sticks the cops carry are not just for show either. 

In any case, is not the whole point of learning a weapon to learn a *weapon*? 

You do realize that in a *real* kobudo school, you learn to fight with those weapons, not just variations on baton twirling?

My experience with taekwondo schools is that weapons training is generally not on parity with what one receives in a formal kobudo program. There are exceptions, and in each and every one that I have personally seen, the instructor has had training in a traditional kobudo program.

Daniel


----------



## Flying Crane

ATC said:


> I get your point but in reality no one is carrying around real weapons anymore let alone really fighthing with them. They are only for sport and that is it. Well here in the US anyways. Carry one let alone use it and you will find yourself in jail. So all those points are moot. If you are using your time to practice a weapon for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any weapon in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it.
> 
> Weapons training is only for show and nothing else. I have never seen anyone carrying a bo or sai or sword down the street for protection. Maybe in the 600's or so but not today.


 

Not a TKD guy myself, but I'll step in here and say that I've gotta disagree with you here.  What you are really overlooking is how much your Weapons practice, if done properly and with realistic weapons, can actually improve your EMPTY HAND skills.

In the Chinese arts that I study, the use of weaponry is a very strong reinforcer of developing proper technique and power generation that directly translates into your empty hand techniques.  Practice with a realistic and properly weighted and balanced sword or staff or spear, and you actually learn how to punch and strike much much harder, as well as developing strength in a more useful way.

I'm not saying you need to practice weapons in order to be successful.  But you are overlooking a very real benefit if you choose to do so.  The hyper-flashy showmanship stuff that I've seen in some tournaments doesn't cut it.  They are using unrealistic, lightweight weapons that do little to improve your overall abilities.  Couple that with a lack of realistic and useful and proper technique and you may as well be baton-twirling.

Lots of benefits to be had from the proper practice of traditional weapons, and not just for developing skills with the weapons.


----------



## dancingalone

ATC said:


> The other 100 plus fights I was in over my life time had nothing around to use but my hands.



You're making an odd (and incorrect) assumption that one would not get into legal trouble from fighting barehanded.  You in fact can, and there are plenty of examples of people spending their life savings defending themselves in the judicial system when they only made the error of fighting to keep themselves or their loved ones from harm's way.

If one is in imminent danger of losing one's life and one has access to something that can be used as a weapon, it seems obvious and necessary to defend oneself and worry about the legalities later.



> Maybe a chair and even then the action is so fast and furious that most of what is taught in a MA weapons class won't work. No one swings and then recoils when blocked and then strikes again. They just swing, push, kick and run into all at the same time.



I think this speaks more to your incorrect conception of what staff work is than anything else.  Youtube videos are a dangerous thing to view if you don't have proper context to understand what you're really seeing.    



> I even use a pair of nunchucks on a guy once and split his head wide open. The guy kept fighting like nothing happened until the cops came, then when the fight was broken up and he calmed down he passed out from the hit. But he still fought like a mad man until the fight was broken up. If you think you are learning weapons to be on some battle field then you are mistaken.



It sounds like you didn't have the emotional determination or the physical skill to strike this guy at the time.  A nunchaku is a weapon with killing force.  If you hit the correct areas of the head with a solid swing, the person attacking you will be incapacitated despite any adrenaline or drugs in his system.  It's simply a function of one's body.  Give enough trauma to the brain or nervous system and down he goes.  You can absolutely kill someone with one blow from a nunchaku.



> Practice with a bow and then have to use a rake that you are not practicing with I bet you make a mistake just from the balance difference of the weapon. Even the any military practices with what they will use in a selfdefence situation. You can't practice with a nice weighted weapon, perfect leangth, then expect to pick up anything and use it as you think you will. Not in the heat of the momemt.



I hope you mean bo and not bow as that would be different.  And your premise is wrong.  Practice occurs with ideal equipment.  A beginner starts with as few variables as possible and then builds physical comfort and competence.  He gradually grows in skill and learns more and more.  This for example is why one generally starts with a bo and does not move to the eku (boat oar) until he is much more advanced, although the two weapons are essentially long sticks.

At advanced stages, one can and does adapt to the environment at hand, including the weapon.  There are plenty of examples of lay people adapting something close by into a crude club and using it effectively.  Why is it so incredible to think a skilled martial artist could do something similar within an activity he has spent thousands upon thousands of hours with?



> Plus all that is moot anyway cause unless your life is in danger and they better be pointing a gun or weilding a sword or stick at you, you can't use any weapon at all anyways.



?


----------



## ATC

Flying Crane said:


> Not a TKD guy myself, but I'll step in here and say that I've gotta disagree with you here. What you are really overlooking is how much your Weapons practice, if done properly and with realistic weapons, can actually improve your EMPTY HAND skills.
> 
> In the Chinese arts that I study, the use of weaponry is a very strong reinforcer of developing proper technique and power generation that directly translates into your empty hand techniques. Practice with a realistic and properly weighted and balanced sword or staff or spear, and you actually learn how to punch and strike much much harder, as well as developing strength in a more useful way.
> 
> I'm not saying you need to practice weapons in order to be successful. But you are overlooking a very real benefit if you choose to do so. The hyper-flashy showmanship stuff that I've seen in some tournaments doesn't cut it. They are using unrealistic, lightweight weapons that do little to improve your overall abilities. Couple that with a lack of realistic and useful and proper technique and you may as well be baton-twirling.
> 
> Lots of benefits to be had from the proper practice of traditional weapons, and not just for developing skills with the weapons.


This makes sense.


----------



## ATC

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not true. The JHU student who defended himself from an attacker with a nihonto, killing the attacker, was not charged so far as I know. Some state laws may actually allow for the carrying of a sword. Maryland law states that any blade over a specific length must not be concealed. Carry it openly and you may get heckled, but not locked up.
> 
> 
> I am sorry, but this is just ignorant. I could easily make the same arguement back with just a few slight changes:
> 
> _If you are using your time to practice taekwondo for any reason other than for sport then you are wasting your time in my opinion. Use any style of taekwondo in a fight for any reason and you will be charged for it._
> 
> And if I made that comment then it would be equally ignorant.
> 
> Okay, I hope that you realize that you have just insulted everyone on this board who trains in a weapon art or weapon related koryo art.
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree with you on this. I regularly see people around the neighborhood in the evenings who walk with sticks, from escrima stick size up to a hanbo. I am one of them. If you choose to to try to mug me, I will happily demonstrate that my skills with my weapon are most definitely *not* just for show. And those tonfas and short sticks the cops carry are not just for show either.
> 
> In any case, is not the whole point of learning a weapon to learn a *weapon*?
> 
> You do realize that in a *real* kobudo school, you learn to fight with those weapons, not just variations on baton twirling?
> 
> My experience with taekwondo schools is that weapons training is generally not on parity with what one receives in a formal kobudo program. There are exceptions, and in each and every one that I have personally seen, the instructor has had training in a traditional kobudo program.
> 
> Daniel


There will always be an exception to just about any situation or example. The point I am making is that out of the thousands of people practicing a weapon, what percentage will or hava used what they are practicing? Then out of that percentage what percentage has had it not work for them? I don't know the answer but I can bet the numbers are really low for both questions. That is all. Most people looking out the window right now won't see anyone carrying any weapons (swords, bo's, nunchucks, sai's, tonfa's) with them.

Flying Crane made the best point so far about the practicing of weapons to me.


Flying Crane said:


> Not a TKD guy myself, but I'll step in here and say that I've gotta disagree with you here. What you are really overlooking is how much your Weapons practice, if done properly and with realistic weapons, can actually improve your EMPTY HAND skills.
> 
> In the Chinese arts that I study, the use of weaponry is a very strong reinforcer of developing proper technique and power generation that directly translates into your empty hand techniques. Practice with a realistic and properly weighted and balanced sword or staff or spear, and you actually learn how to punch and strike much much harder, as well as developing strength in a more useful way.
> 
> I'm not saying you need to practice weapons in order to be successful. But you are overlooking a very real benefit if you choose to do so. The hyper-flashy showmanship stuff that I've seen in some tournaments doesn't cut it. They are using unrealistic, lightweight weapons that do little to improve your overall abilities. Couple that with a lack of realistic and useful and proper technique and you may as well be baton-twirling.
> 
> Lots of benefits to be had from the proper practice of traditional weapons, and not just for developing skills with the weapons.


----------



## dancingalone

ATC said:


> There will always be an exception to just about any situation or example. The point I am making is that out of the thousands of people practicing a weapon, what percentage will or hava used what they are practicing? Then out of that percentage what percentage has had it not work for them? I don't know the answer but I can bet the numbers are really low for both questions. That is all. Most people looking out the window right now won't see anyone carrying any weapons (swords, bo's, nunchucks, sai's, tonfa's) with them.



Have done, ATC.


----------



## ATC

dancingalone said:


> You're making an odd (and incorrect) assumption that one would not get into legal trouble from fighting barehanded. You in fact can, and there are plenty of examples of people spending their life savings defending themselves in the judicial system when they only made the error of fighting to keep themselves or their loved ones from harm's way.


No assumptions made here as I have stated that I have been in trouble many times for fighting barehanded.



> If one is in imminent danger of losing one's life and one has access to something that can be used as a weapon, it seems obvious and necessary to defend oneself and worry about the legalities later.


So true, but I have seen time and time again where ones weapon had been used againt him. Until you are in a real situation you really have no clue as to what your training will do. Unless you train for real. Meaning you really fight with your weapon as you would for real. I have seen some clubs train and practice this way. The Dog Brothers do this and have as real as you can get without killing someone tournaments as well.




> I think this speaks more to your incorrect conception of what staff work is than anything else. Youtube videos are a dangerous thing to view if you don't have proper context to understand what you're really seeing.


Only only point out that you statement of kids not being able weild a weapon was not true and pointed to the YT vids as proof. Regardless of the application or practicality of the use the handleing of it is there. If they can do what is being displayed I am sure it can be translated into a more practical use.




> It sounds like you didn't have the emotional determination or the physical skill to strike this guy at the time. A nunchaku is a weapon with killing force. If you hit the correct areas of the head with a solid swing, the person attacking you will be incapacitated despite any adrenaline or drugs in his system. It's simply a function of one's body. Give enough trauma to the brain or nervous system and down he goes. You can absolutely kill someone with one blow from a nunchaku.


No it sounds like you have not been in any real fights to understand that you will not alway hit what is moving in the exact place you want. Police can shoot a target standing still center mass almost everytime and practice to do so. But ask anyone that shoots how hard it is to hit a moving target.




> I hope you mean bo and not bow as that would be different. And your premise is wrong. Practice occurs with ideal equipment. A beginner starts with as few variables as possible and then builds physical comfort and competence. He gradually grows in skill and learns more and more. This for example is why one generally starts with a bo and does not move to the eku (boat oar) until he is much more advanced, although the two weapons are essentially long sticks.


Yeah we were talking about the bow? Typing mistakes happen. As for you statement. I will wait until you have been it the situation. All I can tell you is that without the real experience you really no nothing. Even sports players need real sports situations to understand and apply their practice. Give my any boxer that only punches a bag and practices his skill,then put him in the ring with a guy that have been in several real matches. You guess what one will win. Practice all day with a bo then the boat oar. Does not mean you can weild a rake the same way. You yourself just stated that you have to move on to the next thing...bo to oar to something else. Well that something else better be a rake if you are going to use rake.



> At advanced stages, one can and does adapt to the environment at hand, including the weapon. There are plenty of examples of lay people adapting something close by into a crude club and using it effectively. Why is it so incredible to think a skilled martial artist could do something similar within an activity he has spent thousands upon thousands of hours with?


people win the lottery every day. People make lucky guesses everyday. Lay people get luck with their swings too. Just becasue something happens does mean it will happen that way everytime. Sometimes stuff just happens. Well practiced people get beat by lay people everyday as well.


----------



## ATC

dancingalone said:


> Have done, ATC.


Done what? Carried you weapon to class? Or you carry it around with you for protection on a daily basis? Or both? Then you are in the small percentage, You are either on one side or the other. I just walked around my office and not one person has anything on them. About to step out for lunch and I will let you know how many I see with a sword or bo or any weapon.


----------



## dancingalone

Ad hominem attacks.  I'm disappointed.  You lack substance, ATC, when you opine about kobudo.  I'll let my prior responses (as well as yours!) stand.

By the way, "have done" means you should give up.  It's clear from your last posts on this that you're more interested in arguing and saving face than learning or sharing anything.  'Have done' is the same as saying 'enough'.


----------



## ATC

dancingalone said:


> Ad hominem attacks. I'm disappointed. You lack substance, ATC, when you opine about kobudo. I'll let my prior responses (as well as yours!) stand.
> 
> By the way, "have done" means you should give up. It's clear from your last posts on this that you're more interested in arguing and saving face than learning or sharing anything. 'Have done' is the same as saying 'enough'.


I have already stated that the person that made the most sense to me was Flying Crane. His point had merit and was practicle. To "me", yours was not.

As for the have done, I really did not know what you meant.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Anyone bother to read the first post in this thread. It is about youth black beltd not who carries what weapon or if anyone uses weapons practice for real.  Please get back to the original subject of the thread.  This thread is way to long for me to try to seperate it into a weapons thread and a youth black belt thread.
If you still want to discuss the weapons aspect start a thread and refrence posts in this one if you wish


that being said yes i do walk with certian weapons on me and yes  walk with what can be considerd a bo staff at times. i live in a small country comunity and there are enough hills in it so no one thinks twice about someone with a large walking stick

Youth black belts well personaly I am against them but I have to say I judged with a 11 year old bb this last weekend and am happy to say he did extreemly well.  A couple of us questioned his points on a certian Kata and he gave reasons "a - f" why he scored it the way he did. He was consistant in his scores and usualy right with everyone else in their evaluation of the compeditors. He asked questions before the weapons forms and empty hand forms and when with what he was told to look for.  It was his first time judgeing and he did one hell of  a good job.
I asked him some questions about his schoola nd association after we where done judgeing and he had the answeres and seemed to have more of a realistic view of the art then many adults


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> There will always be an exception to just about any situation or example. The point I am making is that out of the thousands of people practicing a weapon, what percentage will or hava used what they are practicing? Then out of that percentage what percentage has had it not work for them? I don't know the answer but I can bet the numbers are really low for both questions. That is all.


 
You could say the same thing about unarmed fighting. Out of the thousands of people studying TKD, most will never be in a real fight. and of those who have, there are plenty who have had it not work for them, so there iis no point making the distinction with weapons.

In any case, the weapons training grafted onto most TKD classes is generally of a much lower caliber than the TKD classes themselves and only serves to keep people interested and give them something new and cool to learn.



ATC said:


> Most people looking out the window right now won't see anyone carrying any weapons (swords, bo's, nunchucks, sai's, tonfa's) with them.


I see more people with sticks than I do with guns, but I am sure that you would not consider training in the use of a firearm to be a waste of time.

Having said that, every cop or security guard that you see carries a tonfa or a billy club or similar wooden striking instrument or a multi-cell flashlight of the same length. Every tow truck driver has a nice iron bar of approximately the same length. Last I checked, half the adult population carries a pocket knife.

The subject of improvised weapons has already been mentioned and you dismissed it because it did not work for you. 

Effective weapons training is not about becoming expert in a specific weapon or weapon group, but about learning the principles of weapon use. If you *effectively* train in multiple weapons (as weapons, not as showmanship aids), the principles become clear. No swords, bo's, nunchucks, sai's, tonfa's? How about newspapers? Magazines? Ever beat up someone with the New York Times? Rolled up a newspaper can be used as an effective weapon. How about that flashlight? How about a cane?

Very few people receive truly effective weapons training. Effective training means sparring.  Free sparring.  Unchoreographed sparing.  If the program has no sparring or nothing but one steps, then it is not an effective program.  It may be traditional and authentic to the extent that its practices are authentic, but without some kind of free sparring, it is ineffective for teaching you to use the weapon to defend yourself.

For those of us who do receive effective weapons training, I can assure you that it is not a waste of time.  

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

tshadowchaser said:


> Anyone bother to read the first post in this thread. It is about youth black beltd not who carries what weapon or if anyone uses weapons practice for real. Please get back to the original subject of the thread. This thread is way to long for me to try to seperate it into a weapons thread and a youth black belt thread.
> If you still want to discuss the weapons aspect start a thread and refrence posts in this one if you wish
> 
> 
> that being said yes i do walk with certian weapons on me and yes walk with what can be considerd a bo staff at times. i live in a small country comunity and there are enough hills in it so no one thinks twice about someone with a large walking stick
> 
> Youth black belts well personaly I am against them but I have to say I judged with a 11 year old bb this last weekend and am happy to say he did extreemly well. A couple of us questioned his points on a certian Kata and he gave reasons "a - f" why he scored it the way he did. He was consistant in his scores and usualy right with everyone else in their evaluation of the compeditors. He asked questions before the weapons forms and empty hand forms and when with what he was told to look for. It was his first time judgeing and he did one hell of a good job.
> I asked him some questions about his schoola nd association after we where done judgeing and he had the answeres and seemed to have more of a realistic view of the art then many adults


Sorry; you posted while I was typing.

Daniel


----------



## ATC

Daniel Sullivan said:


> every cop or security guard that you see carries a tonfa or a billy club or similar wooden striking instrument or a multi-cell flashlight of the same length.


 It's their job to carry these weapons, They fall into the exception group.



> How about a cane?


Good one. Now that's something that a person (not all, but the ones that have to use one) will have with them all the time. They even have classes just for cane useage.



> Very few people receive truly effective weapons training. Effective training means sparring. Free sparring. Unchoreographed sparing. If the program has no sparring or nothing but one steps, then it is not an effective program. It may be traditional and authentic to the extent that its practices are authentic, but without some kind of free sparring, it is ineffective for teaching you to use the weapon to defend yourself.
> 
> For those of us who do receive effective weapons training, I can assure you that it is not a waste of time.
> 
> Daniel


Now we are on the same page. I did mention this also and pointed to the Dog Brothers as one org that did such training.


----------



## Gorilla

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Since Gorilla started this thread and his son is twelve, and as the age of twelve has been mentioned several times on this thread as too young for a first degree BB, I would like to point out that twelve is a bit of a nebulous age in regards to kids' first degree black belts.
> 
> Here is a scenario to consider:
> 
> At Kim Norris Lee's Traditional Taekwondo Academy (does not exist, but it sounded cool), two students join one Friday night in 2007.
> 
> *Student 1:* A lady five feet, two inches tall who weighs 108 pounds joins the school at the age of twenty. She wants to be able to feel more secure on campus as a young lady away from home (she just transferred from a community college to a larger university to finish her degree work and is away from home for the first time).
> 
> *Student 2:* A ten year old girl who is teeny tiny and cute as a button. There have been reports of gang activity in the area and the parents want their little girl to be able to defend herself. Both go to class four days a week and practice in between classes. Both attend seminars when available, compete (and do well) in tournaments, work their backsides off and really do well.
> 
> Two years go by.
> 
> The now twenty two year old lady and the now twelve year old girl are at their black belt testing. It is a good day; they have both worked hard and looked forward to this day. Both have improved tremendously since starting. Both attended the same class. Both are equally good in any visible way. Only one thing has changed significantly: when the little girl started, she was teeny tiny and came up to the twenty two year old's shoulder. Now, at twelve, she is five foot three, weighs 110 pounds, and can really take it to her twenty two year old counterpart.
> 
> They test, they both test well, they spar the same selection of opponents. They spar eachother. The test ends. Both students pass. Teach presents them each with their certificates and a black belt. The twenty two year old has a certificate that reads, "First dan" while the twelve year old has one that reads, "First poom."
> 
> Now, the twenty two year old and the mom of the twelve year old have become good friends and join Martialtalk and post about spanking new black belts!! The twenty two year old is given a whole host of congratulatory replies. The mom of the twelve year old gets a few of those, but also gets a few of these:
> 
> "Your kid is twelve. She is not a real black belt."
> 
> In what way is that twelve year old girl's black belt any less real or less earned than the twenty two year old lady's in this scenario?
> 
> Before you say that I have come up with the one scenario that would be the exception, it is not _that_ uncommon. I could easily substitute twenty two year old woman with twenty two year old male college student and a twelve year old junior high student who are of equal physical stature and began training at the same time. And yes, I have seen it happen minus the Martial talk part.
> 
> Yes, I do feel that twelve is too young for a third degree, both poom or dan, but for a kid to earn his or her first black belt, there are twelve year olds who certainly can make the cut.
> 
> Daniel



As I stated when I restarted this thread.  The Master was going to put him through a 3 month testing period.  We have spoken again and we both agree that moving forward with his 3rd poom at this time is a bit premature and that we will rethink this at 15.  My daughter will move forward with her 2nd Dan she is 15.  We both agreed that we want him to have something to work towards during his early teenage years. 

The thing that most of the people on this board don't get is that some people find their passion at a very early age.  My son and daughter both live their lives around TKD.  They already discuss how they will fit TKD into their lives through their 30's.  Both want to be PE teachers as they feel that this job will give them the flexibility to follow their goal to be Olympians.  Both wan't to own schools in their 30's.  They see TKD as a life long adventure.  I never have to tell them to get ready to train.  They do it themselves.  I would not have chosen Martial Sport for my kids.  This was their choice.  As a parent I support their passion because I see their dedication as rare and something that will be a great advantage as they move into adulthood. My daughter has given up soccer(ODP caliber) to pursue he dreams.  I would bet that most of you have never met kids so dedicated at such a young age.  I am not sure if their dreams will come true but the one thing that I am sure of is that they will put in the work to achieve them.  In the end the most enjoyable part is to watch them grow into successful young adults.


----------



## Flying Crane

Gorilla said:


> We both agreed that we want him to have something to work towards during his early teenage years.
> 
> The thing that most of the people on this board don't get is that some people find their passion at a very early age. My son and daughter both live their lives around TKD. They already discuss how they will fit TKD into their lives through their 30's. Both want to be PE teachers as they feel that this job will give them the flexibility to follow their goal to be Olympians. Both wan't to own schools in their 30's. They see TKD as a life long adventure. I never have to tell them to get ready to train. They do it themselves.


 
in my mind, the question that rises is: if they are so dedicated and self-driven to train at such a young age, why do they need to be motivated with rank?  If they are so in love with the art, then they ought to understand that their hard work and dedication is what is important, and rank will come later when it's more appropriate.  But of course when the teacher is willing to give rank to youngsters, it sets the expectation.



> I would bet that most of you have never met kids so dedicated at such a young age.


 
this was me, actually, in a different art and minus the Olympic issue and minus the desire to own a school.

I started when I was 13, and I trained like a maniac, without anyone telling me to.  I just got up every day and did it, for hours at a time.  Earned my shodan at age 16.

Gradually I drifted away from my original art and into different arts.  I continued to train like a maniac, because I just love the martial arts.  I received some other ranking along the way, but nothing higher than a shodan equivalent.  

Eventually I drifted back to my original art, and completely retrained as an adult.  I even tested for shodan all over again, under a new teacher.  The years away meant that I had forgotten a lot of things, but I also suspected that I was a bit young when I first earned shodan, and maybe wasn't quite ready yet.  I think my first teacher could have held back until I was a bit older, and I would have been better for it.  But he didn't, and that's life.

At any rate, now it's been 25 years since I began, and I'm still a shodan.

Why are people in such a hurry to get rank?  I don't get it.


----------



## Gorilla

Flying Crane said:


> in my mind, the question that rises is: if they are so dedicated and self-driven to train at such a young age, why do they need to be motivated with rank?  If they are so in love with the art, then they ought to understand that their hard work and dedication is what is important, and rank will come later when it's more appropriate.  But of course when the teacher is willing to give rank to youngsters, it sets the expectation.
> 
> 
> 
> this was me, actually, in a different art and minus the Olympic issue and minus the desire to own a school.
> 
> I started when I was 13, and I trained like a maniac, without anyone telling me to.  I just got up every day and did it, for hours at a time.  Earned my shodan at age 16.
> 
> Gradually I drifted away from my original art and into different arts.  I continued to train like a maniac, because I just love the martial arts.  I received some other ranking along the way, but nothing higher than a shodan equivalent.
> 
> Eventually I drifted back to my original art, and completely retrained as an adult.  I even tested for shodan all over again, under a new teacher.  The years away meant that I had forgotten a lot of things, but I also suspected that I was a bit young when I first earned shodan, and maybe wasn't quite ready yet.  I think my first teacher could have held back until I was a bit older, and I would have been better for it.  But he didn't, and that's life.
> 
> At any rate, now it's been 25 years since I began, and I'm still a shodan.
> 
> Why are people in such a hurry to get rank?  I don't get it.



Like I said most people don't understand.  They wan't to own a school and be able to give rank.  If you are a 1st Dan you will not able to do that through a organization (kukiwon).  I would not say he is motivated by rank more like competition at this point.  I would say that rank is something that he wants for the future.  The one thing that is for sure on most BBS you will find someone who will find the cloud in the silver lining.


----------



## Flying Crane

Anybody remember the documentary film _BUDO_?  I believe it was filmed in perhaps the 1970s or so, about the Japanese martial arts.  I recall portions of the film showed children training, and many of them were wearing black belts.  I guess there is precedence for it.

I do not know how old the children in the film were.  I haven't watched the film in 10 or more years, but my recollection is that they may have been early to middle teens.  They did not look like young adults, say 17 or older.

I dunno.  I saw a quality in their movement and attitude that was just very different from what I see in the vast majority of young black belts in this nation, in most of the very commercial schools.  Of course it was a film and what I interpreted from my viewing isn't necessarily accurate.  But that's what I recall.  Hard to describe exactly.  

anybody else see this film?


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Here is a scenario to consider:
> 
> 
> 
> Two years go by.
> 
> The now twenty two year old lady and the now twelve year old girl are at their black belt testing.




two year BB's?

CRAP


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> two year BB's?
> 
> CRAP


Two years to BB is not ideal, but I picked the two year time frame because it is common in many TKD schools and because from ten to twelve, a kid can grow a lot, some to the size of some adults.

Also, unless the hypothetical gal actually came on and said, "I got a two year black belt," nobody on here would say anything but 'great job' to her.

I could easily alter the number for the little girl to five years; kid starts at seven, gets her BB at twelve, while the young lady starts at twenty and gets hers at twenty two, with nobody questioning her legitimacy to wear it.  

In that instance, you have student with a longer training period, equal physical traits (height and weight), who is awarded a black belt with her poom rank.  The two year BB gets a free pass to the black belt club here on MT while the twelve year old's mom is told that her daughter's BB is fake.

Personally, if it were my school (meaning the school I dream of opening one day, not the school where I train and teach kendo), I would put the twelve year old in a poom belt (BB is for dan ranks, period), and keep the twenty two year old around for at *least *another year (more than likely two) before even considering testing her for first dan.    

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> As I stated when I restarted this thread.  The Master was going to put him through a 3 month testing period.  We have spoken again and we both agree that moving forward with his 3rd poom at this time is a bit premature and that we will rethink this at 15.  My daughter will move forward with her 2nd Dan she is 15.  We both agreed that we want him to have something to work towards during his early teenage years.
> 
> The thing that most of the people on this board don't get is that some people find their passion at a very early age.  My son and daughter both live their lives around TKD.  They already discuss how they will fit TKD into their lives through their 30's.  Both want to be PE teachers as they feel that this job will give them the flexibility to follow their goal to be Olympians.  Both wan't to own schools in their 30's.  They see TKD as a life long adventure.  I never have to tell them to get ready to train.  They do it themselves.  I would not have chosen Martial Sport for my kids.  This was their choice.  As a parent I support their passion because I see their dedication as rare and something that will be a great advantage as they move into adulthood. My daughter has given up soccer(ODP caliber) to pursue he dreams.  I would bet that most of you have never met kids so dedicated at such a young age.  I am not sure if their dreams will come true but the one thing that I am sure of is that they will put in the work to achieve them.  In the end the most enjoyable part is to watch them grow into successful young adults.


I understand finding one's passion at an early age quite well.  Passion for the art and parental support is independent of what is appropriate with regards to rank.  

Given that a first dan at fifteen would make third by the time they graduate high school, it is not exactly crimping their dream to wait until eighteen to have three stripes on their belt.  

As it is, the Kukkiwon has no minimum age for any poom rank except fourth poom.  That is eighteen, and in my opinion, too young for anything resembling a fourth degree.

Now, my opinion what rank is appropriate to what age is likewise, independent of whether or not a student is deserving.  I do not feel that it is right to devalue the kid and his or her accomplishments.  My criticism is aimed at the organization and school owners in general who have perpetuated the practice.

In no way am I putting down your kids.

Daniel


----------



## ATC

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would put the twelve year old in a poom belt (BB is for dan ranks, period),.Daniel


I am confused. The rank is poom that we all talk about weather we say BB or one not. Poom is the rank Black just happens to be the color of the belt choosen by the instructor to give out. But the belt says poom on it and so does the cert. So I am not sure if the problem is BB or Dan. Even if they wear the standard half red half black belt many still call it a black belt. Jr. is infered.

Even when you register for WTF sanctioned events they ask what poom and you put 1st poom on the application and then they say you fight black belt division, not poom belt divison.

Are we just arguing semantics here. Poom is not Dan we all agree. We also all agree that 10, 11 or 12, who cares could hold the rank of Jr. BB which is poom, but then we debate BB for kids. I think that Jr. is assumed when we say Black Belt because they are pooms and they are Jr's.

Also it is known in our Dojang that Dans have rank over Pooms. Pooms can not line up in front of Dans and Pooms are aware that they are Dan belts Jr.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> I am confused. The rank is poom that we all talk about weather we say BB or one not. Poom is the rank Black just happens to be the color of the belt choosen by the instructor to give out. But the belt says poom on it and so does the cert. So I am not sure if the problem is BB or Dan. Even if they wear the standard half red half black belt many still call it a black belt. Jr. is infered.


It is not a question of it being a problem or not.  I feel that it cuts down on confusion.  As I said, that is my school of thought.  Keep in mind that when I started out, there were no junior black belts.  First dan got a BB, everything below a colored belt of some kind.



ATC said:


> when you register for WTF sanctioned events they ask what poom and you put 1st poom on the application and then they say you fight black belt division, not poom belt divison.


Given that the WTF regulates sport taekwondo, how they designate belt colors to rank is unimportant to me.  But yes, you are correct. 



ATC said:


> we just arguing semantics here. Poom is not Dan we all agree. We also all agree that 10, 11 or 12, who cares could hold the rank of Jr. BB which is poom, but then we debate BB for kids. I think that Jr. is assumed when we say Black Belt because they are pooms and they are Jr's.
> 
> Also it is known in our Dojang that Dans have rank over Pooms. Pooms can not line up in front of Dans and Pooms are aware that they are Dan belts Jr.


Arguing?  No.  You and I are having a spirited but friendly discussion.

Yes, it is a bit of a semantic, but an important one.  You and I are pretty much on the same page; the only area where we differ is on how a poom rank should be represented in terms of the belt.  

Keep in mind that schools that use a black belt for the poom rank students are well within their rights to do so.  It does not change the quality of training, be it good or bad.  

A school could use poom belts and doboks, retest poom students when they are old enough for dan conversion, take four years to get to black belt, and seemingly have all of the details in place to mark them as 'not a McDojo' and still be a lousy school.

On the other hand, a school could have the very best teaching staff in the state, turn out the best students, and put BB's on ten year old pooms and have a BBC because it is the only way for them to survive in the market.  It does not change the quality of the teaching.  And while I would disagree with the belt practice, that is still the school that I would want to train at.

Really, all that I care about in a school is the quality of the teaching.  If I am getting the best instruction possible, the rest is a matter of personal preference.

Daniel


----------



## mango.man

This might be a subject for another topic, but since it has been touched on in this thread, I will put it here:

If it is improper for the student to ask the master "When can I test?", would it also be improper for the student to tell the master "I am not ready to test."?

If the master wants to test a 9 year old for 2nd poom, who is that student to say "no, I'm only 9", just like a 9 year old student should not be pulling on the master's dobak every 10 minutes saying "when can I test, when can I test?"


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mango.man said:


> This might be a subject for another topic, but since it has been touched on in this thread, I will put it here:
> 
> If it is improper for the student to ask the master "When can I test?", would it also be improper for the student to tell the master "I am not ready to test."?
> 
> If the master wants to test a 9 year old for 2nd poom, who is that student to say "no, I'm only 9", just like a 9 year old student should not be pulling on the master's dobak every 10 minutes saying "when can I test, when can I test?"


I agree. The guy I started training with stayed at my belt level until 7th gup. Two weeks before he was due to grade he told our instructor that he didnt feel he was where he wanted to be physically to go to the next belt and he ended up skipping the grading. Some people didnt understand this as the instructor thought he was ready and he had waited the required time. He ended up skipping the grading and got his black belt after I got mine. He is a much better black belt for having been honest enough with himself rather than just grading because he could. I felt his actions were commendable and it would be better if more people shared his attitude.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

mango.man said:


> This might be a subject for another topic, but since it has been touched on in this thread, I will put it here:
> 
> If it is improper for the student to ask the master "When can I test?", would it also be improper for the student to tell the master "I am not ready to test."?
> 
> If the master wants to test a 9 year old for 2nd poom, who is that student to say "no, I'm only 9", just like a 9 year old student should not be pulling on the master's dobak every 10 minutes saying "when can I test, when can I test?"


I wonder if that is how the frequent testing and younger and younger promotions got started.

Daniel


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## tshadowchaser

not sure when it began but I am willing to bet it had to do with charging money for tests and deciding that people will pay to see little jhonny become a Black Belt


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## Gorilla

I was the one who started this thread.  I think that it is a fascinating subject.  I happened to have a child who is a Black Belt.  I have not stated that my child is as good as an adult.  I have stated that he trains as hard as an adult and that he trains with adults.  I tend to agree that a child should not have a Black Belt.  I think that 15 is a minimum.  Having said that we have TKD culture that grants Black(poom) belts to young kids.  My son competes at the highest level for a kid his size and weight if they call that a black belt then he should fight in that division.  I don't care what they call it but to have him fight Red belts would be grossly unfair to kids in that division.  He has 8 years of training and 200 fights fighting since he was 6 1/2 yep 30 fights per year).  His experience level and skill is way above red belts his age 12.  With the current state of affairs you really don't have a choice but to compete as a black belt if you want to fight the best.


----------



## CoryKS

Meh. Completing a marathon is an achievement, but more and more people do it each year. On the running forums, you'll now find people stating that anyone who doesn't finish a marathon in under 4 hours is not a "real" runner. I think that as any activity grows in popularity, those who derive prestige from doing what was once considered impossible for any but an elite few must establish arbitrary benchmarks to separate themselves from the also-rans.

This conversation has nothing to do with self-defense or watered-down standards. It's about ego gratification.


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## Gorilla

I love this thread...spoke with our Master last night he is against under 15 year olds wearing black belts...in the end he switched because almost everyone stopped using them...I wonder why???we should go back to using them?????


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## IcemanSK

Gorilla said:


> I love this thread...spoke with our Master last night he is against under 15 year olds wearing black belts...in the end he switched because almost everyone stopped using them...I wonder why???we should go back to using them?????



I think a lot of instructors (KKW/WTF-style, anyway) stopped using them because people got confused when a person under 15 years old was given a half red/half black belt. The problem was they didn't educate their students & parents about the place of &/or the reasoning behind the poom belt. 

When I opened my school, I displayed a poom belt next to the dan rank & told students what it was. I also point out other schools who use the rank. At the 2008 World Hanmadang in Anaheim, CA, all of the schools from Korea had poom doboks & belts on their kids. It was great to be able to show my students high caliber competitors & say, "that's a poom student!" My students had an instant respect for the rank then.


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## msmitht

I just signed up 2 kids who are here from Korea for 6 months on an exchange program. One is a nine year old second poom and the other is a 13 year old third poom. Both are excellent players and have good form. They wear poom belt's but told me that in their school in Korea they wear black. They only wear poom at events. 
They also told me that most (in Korea) get the first poom in 12-18 months and nobody gets to test "in house" with their own instructor. All testing is done either at the KKW or at a formal test conducted by the KKW. I wonder how many would pass in the states if it was done like that?


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## VinsonTKD

Well, I guess I will put my 2 cents in too for whatever it's worth.
The Youth Black Belt topic is very iffy for me too. I am not too sure what to think of it. I would like for them to not have a black belt until they are able to defend themselves in a real life situation against people within a couple years. Thats why in my school, for a long time, you have to be at least 13 to qualify.
Second, sparring is only a very very small aspect of a black belt. Just because a student wins a years worth of tournaments means he's a good sport tae-kwon-do-ist.. not particularly meaning he or she is ready to be a black belt. There is much more to it. This is one of the downfalls of competitions... because it makes people think they deserve the rank just because they win a lot. 
Lastly, I think anything under 3 years if fast. I mean, a black belt should have some basic reactions that can be used in self-defense. 3 years of training is almost impossible to develop these reactions (especially for youths). Black belts should be able to know all aspects of the art and what every move is and does. 
Overall, I think kids she be given something to recognize their achievement, but is not ready to be a black belt. It's like a kid that get a drivers liceanse. He might be able to drive perfectly before he's 16, but they are just not mature enough to handle the situation until 16. Similar with TaeKwonDo, sort of.


----------



## Thomas Henderson

First let me start off by saying that I study and teach Kajukenbo but earlier in my martial arts career i represented the S.W.A.M.A here in san diego.  I competed my way up through countless city and state qualifiers and finally earned the right to compete in the Junior Olympics in Chicago in 1994.
    Now with that being said as a child you may show qualities of a black belt but there is no way that anyone under the age of 16 is going to show the adult forward thinking that a black belt should have.  Does that mean that someone under the age of 16 cannot be a black belt?  No that is not what I am saying.  In my art we promote students who are underage to a junior blackbelt position which is still prestigous but this junior black belt position allow the student to be in an "internship"  if you will.  I think this is the best way to mold the future instructor.  Poromotion too early takes away the humbleness needed to mold the student.  And humbleness is one of the leading precepts in any martial arts.  Well atleast this is just my opinion.


----------



## Gorilla

Last week while watching ATC's Kids and mine train together at the Dojang and then later compete at the US Open. I was reminded of this thread.  Our children range in age from 11 to 15 they are all Blackbelts.  Some have suggested that they can't possibly have the demeanor of a Black Belt.  Not only do they have the demeanor of a Black Belt.  They have the work ethic and the dedication of any Blackbelt.  It was suggested by some on this board that our Master should be slapped for allowing such young Black Belts.  ATC now that you have met Master Blackburn is that not misguided and silly statement.


----------



## ATC

Gorilla said:


> ...It was suggested by some on this board that our Master should be slapped for allowing such young Black Belts. ATC now that you have met Master Blackburn is that not misguided and silly statement.


Ha ha ha....I am just cracking up at the thought of that. Although I don't think it would be a laughing matter if attempted.

On a side note, we just returned from Sacramento. We attended a tournament that Master Robinson puts on every year. My kids did not compete as we only took our color belts. Was nice to not have to rush around and enjoy the tournament. We let our assistant coaches get some experience.

Will see you guys in FL come this summer. Keep the pot stirred.


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## Gorilla

Pot does not seem to stir as much anymore.  Florida is going to be fun!


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## Twin Fist

already danced this dance

you know what I think

keep telling yourselves whatever you need to to feel good


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## terryl965

Gorilla said:


> Pot does not seem to stir as much anymore. Florida is going to be fun!


 
Yes in two cities in three days should be fun...


----------



## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> already danced this dance
> 
> you know what I think
> 
> keep telling yourselves whatever you need to to feel good



Pot stirred!!!  How are you doing Twin Fist had not heard from you in a while?

Hope all is well!

We all know what you think!  Hopefully your mind will open someday!  Until then I enjoy your posts.  They are one of the things that keep me coming back to this board.


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## shesulsa

I stand by my conviction that if a rank is to mean something, it must hold some weight. I'm not sure how I'd feel if I were 35 getting my first black belt with some 7 year olds who can do the same thing I can. 

I won't put a 7-year-old behind the wheel of a car, I won't put a live blade in the hands of a 7-year-old, hell I wouldn't teach a 7-year-old how to start a fire unless absolutely necessary.

Curriculums need to be stringent ... but there are some things a child shouldn't learn. Poom ranks 15 and up with rare exception, full knowledge and ranking 18 and up and it still depends on the individual.

JMHO.         
                                                                                         _______________


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## Twin Fist

and it is a pretty smart opinion too.

black belts on a 7 year old is a friggin JOKE and ought to be a CRIME, namely FRAUD


----------



## Gorilla

AHHHH!!!! Old memories!!! I think that this was one of the most viewed and commented on threads on this forum...I made some people pretty angry...nothing makes people angrier than a 7 year old poom belt....read it is an epic thread...


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## dancingalone

Gorilla, you still do not train, correct?  Do you think you would feel differently if you were a martial artist yourself instead of only being a parent?  Food for thought.


----------



## Gorilla

dancingalone said:


> Gorilla, you still do not train, correct?  Do you think you would feel differently if you were a martial artist yourself instead of only being a parent?  Food for thought.



I have never trained in TKD or any Asian martial Art...I have extensive training in Military Arts and Self defense...My thoughts on youth poom belts have evolved over the last year

I find your comment referring to me as only a parent quite interesting....I find my job as a parent is the most important one that I have...I am sure/hope that you feel that the role of a parent is an important one....

My daughter is a 16 year old First Dan and MY Son is a 13 year old 2nd Poom and they are a Credit to Martial Arts as those on this board who know them would attest.


----------



## dancingalone

Gorilla said:


> I have never trained in TKD or any Asian martial Art...I have extensive training in Military Arts and Self defense...My thoughts on youth poom belts have evolved over the last year



So what is your current position?



Gorilla said:


> I find your comment referring to me as only a parent quite interesting....I find my job as a parent is the most important one that I have...I am sure/hope that you feel that the role of a parent is an important one....



Ah, it's psychology amateur hour where we can analyse each other based on postings on a message board!  We can invoke Jung and Freud and throw in some Dr. Spock too.  What fun!

Or not.     



Gorilla said:


> My daughter is a 16 year old First Dan and MY Son is a 13 year old 2nd Poom and they are a Credit to Martial Arts as those on this board who know them would attest.



You don't think if you are were a martial artist yourself, that your own thoughts and opinions wouldn't be somewhat tempered by your own experience?  Military service isn't quite the same thing as being a martial artist after all, although for the record I certainly am not denigrating our soldiers.


----------



## Gorilla

So what is your current position?

If you really read my posts you would see that i have always had some questions about youth Black belts (Poom Belts).  My Son is really always been the one in question. For the record I just looked at my kids poom cert he was 8 year 1 month old when he got his first poom and was 9 years and 8 months when he got his second poom.  He is currently 13 years old and will test for 3rd Poom in August and my daughter will test for Second Dan on the same day.

I really want to say that he is to young but his dedication and hard work keep telling me that he is not.  Both my kids are committed to a lifetime in Martial Arts in the end when he is a 50 Year Old Martial Artist this will all be moot.


----------



## ATC

A kid is just as capable of learning anything an adult is. For the most part kids have more time to even become better than any adult that is just starting.

A kid that plays football (or any sport for that matter) early on will be better than any adult that tries to take up the sport in adulthood. That is why when doing anything physical it is best to start young, to build the need muscle memory to be on top.

Once an adult you only have so much time before you start to decline physically. Most adults don't have the time needed to develop the skills needed to be world class.

Put in the time and effort and show that you are proficient for the amount of time and effort put in and you deserve whatever it is you are working for. Regardless of age.

If kids can't have black belt then you should eliminate the elderly, handicapped and anyone else that is limited physically. I look at 60 year olds everyday that work hard for their age but will never be great or even good for that matter. But it is all relative.


----------



## Tez3

ATC said:


> A kid is just as capable of learning anything an adult is. For the most part kids have more time to even become better than any adult that is just starting.
> 
> A kid that plays football (or any sport for that matter) early on will be better than any adult that tries to take up the sport in adulthood. That is why when doing anything physical it is best to start young, to build the need muscle memory to be on top.
> 
> Once an adult you only have so much time before you start to decline physically. Most adults don't have the time needed to develop the skills needed to be world class.
> 
> Put in the time and effort and show that you are proficient for the amount of time and effort put in and you deserve whatever it is you are working for. Regardless of age.
> 
> If kids can't have black belt then you should eliminate the elderly, handicapped and anyone else that is limited physically. I look at 60 year olds everyday that work hard for their age but will never be great or even good for that matter. But it is all relative.


 

So if whats good for adults is good for children and the reason is that they learn quicker why don't we lower the age of sexual consent to three or four? Why don't we have child soldiers? Sgts and officers under 10? Send them off to war to be killed and maimed?

The reason we don't is that consent to have sexual intercourse takes maturity, thats why the age of consent is usally never under 16. We don't have children in the forces because while they might learn everything easily and quickly they aren't mature enough to lead troops into battle, martial arts is no different, it's MARTIAL arts, little different from learning about warfare and fighting, leading troops and being a mature person.

If of course your children do that tippy tappy Irish dancing, no Bunkai, point scoring, child care, gymnastic so called martial arts you're probably right. the people who object to children having black belts are martial artists in the traditional sense of the word. It's the difference between playing at being Spiderman and being in the US Marine Corps.


----------



## Tez3

Ah it would seem you would agree with me, children can't do a lot of stuff in martial arts that is best left to the adults. If they can't do this then they shouldn't have high ranking black belts.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87191&page=2

"It all depends on what your definition of TKD is. *If you are thinking what* *you see in the Olympics or what is taught to kids* then I see your point. However if you are talking about the stuff that the Korean military does or what you get taught at 4th or 5th Dan level (at least in our dojang) then I don't see your point.

Most of the SD stuff taught is pretty brutal. Most of the counter to any aggression are killing techniques and would land most in jail. Even when practicing some of these techniques I will ask do we really want to do it this way? Then I am shown how to apply it to contain or hold someone until help arrives. But the way we are taught is not nice and most people don't even want to practice it because it hurts and hurts bad.

I am all for being flipped, punched (even in the face), taken down to the ground, and even joint locked. But this stuff is none of that. It is all soft area spot strikes and grabs first finished with some face smashing off the ground, windpipe crushing, neck breaking type technique. And it is all done in the first 1 or 2 moves. There is no playing around.

When we practice we are told to use some force and get use to the pain as we will build a tolerance. This stuff hurts an hurts bad, even if not done at real speed. Yes we may now have a better tolerance that any mugger or attacker but in the class when everyone has close to the same tolerance you just up the ante a bit and still pain, and not the kind you go and put some ice on. When you have dug your fingers into my lymph nodes of the neck area ice does not help.

*Again no kids* or color belts (in our dojang) get to practice or even see this stuff.* Only instructor level and any high ranking BB* are allowed to take this class, not many. Oh and yes our GM use to teach some PD officers this as well. "

If the children have high ranking black belts but can't do this why give them the belts? You teach the children different stuff from the adults therefore they aren't true Dan grades or black belts.


----------



## ATC

Tez3 said:


> Ah it would seem you would agree with me, children can't do a lot of stuff in martial arts that is best left to the adults. If they can't do this then they shouldn't have high ranking black belts.
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87191&page=2
> 
> "It all depends on what your definition of TKD is. *If you are thinking what* *you see in the Olympics or what is taught to kids* then I see your point. However if you are talking about the stuff that the Korean military does or what you get taught at 4th or 5th Dan level (at least in our dojang) then I don't see your point.
> 
> Most of the SD stuff taught is pretty brutal. Most of the counter to any aggression are killing techniques and would land most in jail. Even when practicing some of these techniques I will ask do we really want to do it this way? Then I am shown how to apply it to contain or hold someone until help arrives. But the way we are taught is not nice and most people don't even want to practice it because it hurts and hurts bad.
> 
> I am all for being flipped, punched (even in the face), taken down to the ground, and even joint locked. But this stuff is none of that. It is all soft area spot strikes and grabs first finished with some face smashing off the ground, windpipe crushing, neck breaking type technique. And it is all done in the first 1 or 2 moves. There is no playing around.
> 
> When we practice we are told to use some force and get use to the pain as we will build a tolerance. This stuff hurts an hurts bad, even if not done at real speed. Yes we may now have a better tolerance that any mugger or attacker but in the class when everyone has close to the same tolerance you just up the ante a bit and still pain, and not the kind you go and put some ice on. When you have dug your fingers into my lymph nodes of the neck area ice does not help.
> 
> *Again no kids* or color belts (in our dojang) get to practice or even see this stuff.* Only instructor level and any high ranking BB* are allowed to take this class, not many. Oh and yes our GM use to teach some PD officers this as well. "
> 
> If the children have high ranking black belts but can't do this why give them the belts? You teach the children different stuff from the adults therefore they aren't true Dan grades or black belts.


This applies to adults as well. No adult color belts either. Only 4th Dan Black belts and up. Not that these people could not learn it, but that they need to make sure anyone learning it has there basics down. This includes anyone, even adults. You can be in your 50's but if not a 4th Dan then not for you.

We don't put kids in the military but some countries do. That is just our culture. Just as you can find child prostitutes in every country. Just because we don't condone it does not mean it does not happen or that they don't know what is happening.

Just like the girl that tried to sail around the world at 16. She did not make it but others her age did. Many adults did not make that trip either. Some say she was too young but that is because we view death at a young age as tragic. But really death unnecessary at any age is tragic.


----------



## Tez3

ATC said:


> This applies to adults as well. No adult color belts either. Only 4th Dan Black belts and up. Not that these people could not learn it, but that they need to make sure anyone learning it has there basics down. This includes anyone, even adults. You can be in your 50's but if not a 4th Dan then not for you.
> 
> We don't put kids in the military but some countries do. That is just our culture. Just as you can find child prostitutes in every country. Just because we don't condone it does not mean it does not happen or that they don't know what is happening.
> 
> Just like the girl that tried to sail around the world at 16. She did not make it but others her age did. Many adults did not make that trip either. Some say she was too young but that is because we view death at a young age as tragic. But really death unnecessary at any age is tragic.


 

No, not an argument. *You have a different syllabus for children, you said it* *yourself as stuff taught for the Olympics and children, says so in your first* *line*, it's not full on martial arts and therefore the children shouldn't have a black belt or Dan grade. You aren't teaching children the same basics, you're watering it down. If you thought children could do the same as adults you would teach them the same things. Everything you say about children being the same as adults is nonsense if you aren't teaching them the same thing and by your admission they aren't learning the adult syllabus.

Have children as soldiers is not approved by any civilised country, it's banned by the UN ( they may not do any good by they have tried not shrugged their shoulders as you do and say it's others culture) and active measures are made to stop this horrible thing, likewise with child prostitution, no one in their right minds can accept this and should do everything they can to stop it regardless of culture.

*Teach children the same as adults, in the same way, same full on contact,* *same intensity of training* and then tell me they can have blackbelts at 6 and 4th Dans at 10....and then be allowed to participate in your SD classes, if they are 4th Dans why not?


Or carry on teaching age appropriate techniques and age appropriate training as we do and don't even pretend they can be black belts and Dan grades at such an early age. They will be the better martial artists for it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I will reiterate my own position on the subject.  I think my quote is  from back on like page five.


Daniel Sullivan said:


> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> This why I posted this thread. I  hear allot on BBS that under 10 year old Black Belts are not deserving. I  think the the real answer is some are and some are not but the  potential for younger BB to earn that rank is possible no matter what  you call them(Poom or Dan).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a question of deserving.  If a ten year old meets the criteria set forth by his or her school, then he or she is deserving by the standards of *that particular school*.  A poom rank student technically should wear a poom belt and a poom dobok: a half black/half red belt and a dobok with half red/half black colar.  Many schools choose to put them in black belts.  That is a school decision.
> 
> I draw a distinction between the rank and the belt color.  If you are a poom rank, you are not a yudanja.  If you are a dan rank holder, then you are.  What color belt and dobok the school permits is between you and that school.
> 
> 
> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason some kids train with  adults is because the youth level training is not enough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some kids mix well in an adult class, some do not.  It also depends on the nature of the class.
> 
> 
> 
> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> The criteria that i posted is to  high. That why I posted it!!! To get the discussion going
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually it is not too high.  Personally, that is what I feel the blackbelt criteria should be.  But different teachers and schools have different philosophies from my own.
> 
> I do not penalize the child for earning a black belt in a school.  I would never tell a kid that he or she is not deserving just because they are a kid.
> 
> I do think that the instructor is doing them a disservice and look down on the practice.  But that is a different story.
> 
> 
> 
> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the correct criteria for a  (Poom Belt or Black Belt) if you are going to give them to 10 year olds  and not bring down the standards for Black Belts of TKD in general
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Poom requirements are essentially the same as adult requirements, but the kids do not get out and spar against an adult going full boar; they spar against other kids and break thinner boards.
> 
> The poom signifies that the child has learned the kyu grade material but does not have the maturity, both physical and/or mental, to take on a dan rank.  No shame in that; they are kids and are not done maturing.
> 
> Daniel
Click to expand...


My position has not changed.  

The WTF uses belt rankings as part of their competition bracketing, along with gender, age, and weight.  Within that setting, the ten year old with a black belt is not a problem:  He or she will be bracketed with other ten year olds of the same gender and relative size, not with Daehan Park (watch Best of the best if you do not get the reference).

I think that so long as a ten year old is not given delusions of cinematic grandeur that his or her black belt makes them somehow able to take on an army of unsuspecting thugs, or more appropriately, an adult predator, then there really is not a major issue.

I think that the biggest concern that many of us have is that often schools put black belts on kids as a means of bilking parents out of a large chunk of change.  That really has nothing to do, however, with whether or not children should be put into black belts.

Daniel


----------



## terryl965

Come on people this has been breaten to death by all, why can't we just agree that no-matter what side of the fence you are on, a youth BB is just that a youth BB whether it is sport or regular classes. I mean we give out poom belts but they know it is not a Dan rank and later in life if they stay with me they need to learn and test for there Dan rank. Lets all say these two words *who's cares*!!!!


----------



## dancingalone

terryl965 said:


> Come on people this has been breaten to death by all, why can't we just agree that no-matter what side of the fence you are on, a youth BB is just that a youth BB whether it is sport or regular classes. I mean we give out poom belts but they know it is not a Dan rank and later in life if they stay with me they need to learn and test for there Dan rank. Lets all say these two words *who's cares*!!!!



KKW poom belts automatically convert upon reaching the minimum age for a full dan, do they not?  If so, than the poom belt is a mere semantic.  It effectively is a 'real' black belt.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> KKW poom belts automatically convert upon reaching the minimum age for a full dan, do they not?


I don't think that it is automatic.  I believe that there is paperwork to be signed off on by the student's instructor.



dancingalone said:


> If so, than the poom belt is a mere semantic.  It effectively is a 'real' black belt.


It would be less of a semantic of the KKW required poom grades to wear a poom belt and poom dobok.  

Frankly, as Terry says, who cares about the belt?  Just teach your students, kids or adults, well and don't move them onto the next stage of the curriculum until they have become solid in their current curriculum.  Simply doing that would eliminate probably 90% of the problem.

Daniel


----------



## Gorilla

terryl965 said:


> Come on people this has been breaten to death by all, why can't we just agree that no-matter what side of the fence you are on, a youth BB is just that a youth BB whether it is sport or regular classes. I mean we give out poom belts but they know it is not a Dan rank and later in life if they stay with me they need to learn and test for there Dan rank. Lets all say these two words *who's cares*!!!!



I agree!!!! But nothing gets people angrier that a 7 year old Poom belt!!!this thread always get the discussion going!!!! This is my War and Peace!!!  My Epic Controversial Thread!!!!


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## Tez3

Gorilla said:


> I agree!!!! But nothing gets people angrier that a 7 year old Poom belt!!!this thread always get the discussion going!!!! This is my War and Peace!!! My Epic Controversial Thread!!!!


 


*Angry? No*,  *Scornful? Yes*.  I don't like seeing parents etc being mislead and possibly ripped off when their 6 year old is made a 3rd Dan and they think their child is a fuly fledged martial artist. It saddens me and thats why I care. I want the best for all children and this simply isn't it.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla, 

Please read the terms of service. This...


Gorilla said:


> AHHHH!!!! Old memories!!! I think that this was one of the most viewed and commented on threads on this forum...I made some people pretty angry...nothing makes people angrier than a 7 year old poom belt....read it is an epic thread...


...I was not going to comment on this until you posted this....


Gorilla said:


> I agree!!!! *But nothing gets people angrier that a 7 year old Poom belt!!!*


 
....which indicates a desire not for productive discussion but to be purposefully disruptive.  It also violates this:

From 4.1 posting guidelines:

No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments, which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.

And this...


Gorilla said:


> this thread always get the discussion going!!!! This is my War and Peace!!! My Epic Controversial Thread!!!!


 
...violates this:

Also from 4.1 posting guidelines:

No senseless "Bumping": Please do not bump your request/help searching or other threads several times a day. Bumping can refer to posting useless information, making corrections or updates in a new post, posting one-liners or any other action to *deliberately keep a thread hot* or to bring it to the top of its forum. Moderators will use their discretion, depending on the nature of the post, as to whether to take action or not. Remember there are people who don't browse this board every hour. So do not bump a thread within 24h or too much even after 24 hours.

Your resurrecting of this thread violates both of these rules. 

Daniel


----------



## Tez3

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From 4.1 posting guidelines:
> 
> No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments, which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.
> 
> 
> 
> Also from 4.1 posting guidelines:
> 
> No senseless "Bumping": Please do not bump your request/help searching or other threads several times a day. Bumping can refer to posting useless information, making corrections or updates in a new post, posting one-liners or any other action to *deliberately keep a thread hot* or to bring it to the top of its forum. Moderators will use their discretion, depending on the nature of the post, as to whether to take action or not. Remember there are people who don't browse this board every hour. So do not bump a thread within 24h or too much even after 24 hours.
> 
> Your resurrecting of this thread violates both of these rules.
> 
> Daniel


 

This is correct, we have different ideas on a lot of subjects but we don't discuss these specifically for others to 'enjoy' arguments or be entertained by differences of opinion.


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## ATC

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From 4.1 posting guidelines:
> 
> No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute. This includes messages in profiles, signatures and/or posting comments, which will intimidate, promote or generate hatred or flames among members.
> 
> And this...
> 
> Also from 4.1 posting guidelines:
> 
> No senseless "Bumping": Please do not bump your request/help searching or other threads several times a day. Bumping can refer to posting useless information, making corrections or updates in a new post, posting one-liners or any other action to *deliberately keep a thread hot* or to bring it to the top of its forum. Moderators will use their discretion, depending on the nature of the post, as to whether to take action or not. Remember there are people who don't browse this board every hour. So do not bump a thread within 24h or too much even after 24 hours.
> 
> Your resurrecting of this thread violates both of these rules.
> 
> Daniel


I don't think he violated either of the guidelines. When this thread first was posted it was a valid topic that had quite a few strong debates with strong opinions by just about everyone. This is one of the largest threads clearly showing that everyone has strong feelings one way or another on this topic.

The bump was not a senseless one either. There was a new topic posted that mimiced this same thread and he deciced to bumb his thread for the OP of the other thread to read and reference. He did not do what the guideline stated at all when looking at it.

Just my opinion.


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## cmassman

ATC said:


> I don't think he violated either of the guidelines. When this thread first was posted it was a valid topic that had quite a few strong debates with strong opinions by just about everyone. This is one of the largest threads clearly showing that everyone has strong feelings one way or another on this topic.
> 
> The bump was not a senseless one either. There was a new topic posted that mimiced this same thread and he deciced to bumb his thread for the OP of the other thread to read and reference. He did not do what the guideline stated at all when looking at it.
> 
> Just my opinion.


 
I agree with ATC I don't think Gorilla was doing anything on purpose to upset anyone. he just pointing out the fact that this was a highly debated topic that he started.


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## dancingalone

I don't really care one way or another, but Gorilla does have a track record of 'egging' things on occasionally.  He likes to bait Twin Fist.


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## terryl965

dancingalone said:


> KKW poom belts automatically convert upon reaching the minimum age for a full dan, do they not? If so, than the poom belt is a mere semantic. It effectively is a 'real' black belt.


 

No they do not automatically roll into a Dan rank, the proper paperwork needs to be filled out and then they re-issue the Dan rank. One thing with the KKWschools alot fo not require another test before doing the paperwork and submitting it. All my students and parents understand that when the time comes they need to take my adult BB test or find another school.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ATC said:


> I don't think he violated either of the guidelines. When this thread first was posted it was a valid topic that had quite a few strong debates with strong opinions by just about everyone. This is one of the largest threads clearly showing that everyone has strong feelings one way or another on this topic.


I respectfully disagree.

And it had been done to death in identical threads prior to him starting it.  Much of the reason for the size has to do with inflamatory comments, responses to said comments, perceived insults and responses to said perceived insults, not to mention a degree of moderation.  Quantity does not in any way equal quality.  Yes, some great responses and observations were made.  But if you take out all of the posts that either flamed or responded to flaming, this thread would be much shorter.



ATC said:


> The bump was not a senseless one either. There was a new topic posted that mimiced this same thread and he deciced to bumb his thread for the OP of the other thread to read and reference. He did not do what the guideline stated at all when looking at it.


Again, I respectfully disagree.

With a fresh thread on the same topic, the appropriate thing to do would have been to link this thread in a response on the more recent one.  New threads on the same topic do not justify bumping.  If he had new thoughts or insight into the topic, then yes, bringing it back up would have been perfectly appropriate.  But to bump it just for the sake of getting attention is specifically against the bumping rule.



ATC said:


> Just my opinion.


Twas a friendly heads up. Nothing more. He can take it however he wishes.  

I have no personal beef with Gorilla, but I definitely feel that some ground need not be retrod.  One of the reasons that the newer thread may have been started.  Thread necro sometimes has the unintended consequence of reigniting personal disputes, particularly on a hot topic such as this.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

terryl965 said:


> No they do not automatically roll into a Dan rank, the proper paperwork needs to be filled out and then they re-issue the Dan rank.


That is what I had thought.  Thanks for the confirmation!



terryl965 said:


> One thing with the KKWschools alot fo not require another test before doing the paperwork and submitting it. All my students and parents understand that when the time comes they need to take my adult BB test or find another school.


A good policy in my opinion.

I would also consider it equally valid if the instructor, knowing the student were to simply say, based on where he or she knows the student to be, 'I'm filling this out because you are ready' or 'I will not fill this out at this time.  You need more work.'

Daniel


----------



## cmassman

dancingalone said:


> I don't really care one way or another, but Gorilla does have a track record of 'egging' things on occasionally. He likes to bait Twin Fist.


 
Thats an interesting perspective; I never viewed it as egging people on. I always assumed that it was just individuals expressing their opinions on different topics. Granted there are individuals who strongly express their opinions. I dont take it to personally.   .


----------



## dancingalone

cmassman said:


> Thats an interesting perspective; I never viewed it as egging people on. I always assumed that it was just individuals expressing their opinions on different topics. Granted there are individuals who strongly express their opinions. I dont take it to personally.   .



When one openly complains about the boards being boring and slow and needing some controversy, I think it's evidence that there's some desire for trolling and inciting.  To use the Twin Fist example, it's not like we don't know what TF thinks about child black belts or hogus.  There's really not a reason to poke him like a bear in a cage to get his reaction.  

And if you don't know what I am talking about, that's fine.  Like I said I don't really care - Gorilla is generally a good poster - but I do think he enjoys heated threads in the TKD forum and he's not above manufacturing or seeking them out.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> When one openly complains about the boards being boring and slow and needing some controversy, I think it's evidence that there's some desire for trolling and inciting. To use the Twin Fist example, it's not like we don't know what TF thinks about child black belts or hogus. There's really not a reason to poke him like a bear in a cage to get his reaction.
> 
> And if you don't know what I am talking about, that's fine. Like I said I don't really care - Gorilla is generally a good poster - but I do think he enjoys heated threads in the TKD forum and he's not above manufacturing or seeking them out.


Which is exactly my reason for the friendly heads up.

Daniel


----------



## MJS

*ADMIN NOTE:*

Folks,

Before this thread gets too out of hand, let me say a few things:

1) The forum rules are in place for everyone, and are not up for debate.  They should be pretty clear.  If someone is intentionally starting threads for the purpose of causing trouble, the thread and the person in question will be dealt with.  I understand that some heat and controversy makes for a good debate, however, if the disruption out weighs that, then no, its not a good thing.  In other words, if people start taking personal shots at each other, that takes away from the debate.  

2) A few posts have already been reported and are being reviewed.

3) The thread is being watched.  Please return to the original topic at hand.  Further disruption will result in the thread being closed.  

4) Posting on a forum does require a thick skin.  If someone or their posts, bother you that much, use the ignore feature.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin.


----------



## terryl965

I believe we just all need to sit down and have a few drinks, it always helps me see other people views for those few minutes...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 right Gorilla?


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## Tez3

terryl965 said:


> *I believe we just all need to sit down and have* *a few drinks,* it always helps me see other people views for those few minutes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> right Gorilla?


 
I wish I could! Am on earlies tomorrow, a five o'clock crawl out of a bed which wants me to stay in it. At least in summer it's light, horrible in winter when it stays dark until about seven in the morning. Oh well off to bed so good night and have fun, people!


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## mango.man

terryl965 said:


> I believe we just all need to sit down and have a few drinks, it always helps me see other people views for those few minutes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> right Gorilla?



Welcome to Facebook Terry.  Looking forward to seeing what you throw on there.


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## Gorilla

terryl965 said:


> I believe we just all need to sit down and have a few drinks, it always helps me see other people views for those few minutes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> right Gorilla?



You are right Terry...I really am glad that I posted on Martial Talk...I have made some new friends who I respect I am really glad that I have met. Both you and ATC are great people and I look forward to a long friendship. I really enjoyed the drinks we had in Ft Lauderdale.  I have Known Mango Man for years and look forward to a continued friendship on our TKD Journey.


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## Gorilla

ATC said:


> I don't think he violated either of the guidelines. When this thread first was posted it was a valid topic that had quite a few strong debates with strong opinions by just about everyone. This is one of the largest threads clearly showing that everyone has strong feelings one way or another on this topic.
> 
> The bump was not a senseless one either. There was a new topic posted that mimiced this same thread and he deciced to bumb his thread for the OP of the other thread to read and reference. He did not do what the guideline stated at all when looking at it.
> 
> Just my opinion.



That was my intention...You stated it right....


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## Gorilla

Lots of discussion around youth BB, TIG and youthful GM's.  This was a hot topic thread fro a few years back.  It may have the most views ever on the TKD forum.  Enjoy it is good reading. Lots of hot debate.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> This  why I posted this thread. I hear allot on BBS that under 10 year old  Black Belts are not deserving. I think the the real answer is some are  and some are not but the potential for younger BB to earn that rank is  possible no matter what you call them(Poom or Dan).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a question of deserving.  If a ten year old meets the criteria  set forth by his or her school, then he or she is deserving by the  standards of *that particular school*.  A poom rank student  technically should wear a poom belt and a poom dobok: a half black/half  red belt and a dobok with half red/half black colar.  Many schools  choose to put them in black belts.  That is a school decision.
> 
> I draw a distinction between the rank and the belt color.  If you are a  poom rank, you are not a yudanja.  If you are a dan rank holder, then  you are.  What color belt and dobok the school permits is between you  and that school.
> 
> 
> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason some kids train with adults is because the youth level training is not enough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some kids mix well in an adult class, some do not.  It also depends on the nature of the class.
> 
> 
> 
> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> The criteria that i posted is to high. That why I posted it!!! To get the discussion going
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually it is not too high.  Personally, that is what I feel the  blackbelt criteria should be.  But different teachers and schools have  different philosophies from my own.
> 
> I do not penalize the child for earning a black belt in a school.  I  would never tell a kid that he or she is not deserving just because they  are a kid.
> 
> I do think that the instructor is doing them a disservice and look down on the practice.  But that is a different story.
> 
> 
> 
> Gorilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the correct criteria for a (Poom Belt  or Black Belt) if you are going to give them to 10 year olds and not  bring down the standards for Black Belts of TKD in general
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Poom requirements are essentially the same as adult requirements, but  the kids do not get out and spar against an adult going full boar; they  spar against other kids and break thinner boards.
> 
> The poom signifies that the child has learned the kyu grade material but  does not have the maturity, both physical and/or mental, to take on a  dan rank.  No shame in that; they are kids and are not done maturing.
> 
> Daniel
Click to expand...

This is what I posted on 30-July 2009.  My opinion is still essentially the same.  It doesn't bother as much now as it did back then.  

As I said in a more recent thread, it used to bother me a *lot*.  But then I got off of my high horse and stopped taking myself so seriously.


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## Gorilla

I still think it is a great thread. Diversity of thought and opinion is a great thing.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Regardless of the many thoughts in the negative, black belts on children are here to stay.  One of the major factors in this is that the black belt has become a diploma of sorts.  You go through the school, you learn the syllabus, and when you're done, usually in about two years, you get your diploma.  Probably more than 90% leave at this point.

Some students stay on for another year and take the advanced material and stick around through second dan, receiving another diploma.  No idea how many leave at this point.

Some students stay on for another two years and take further advanced material, receiving a third diploma.  Again, no idea how many leave at this point, but I'd bet that more leave after third than leave after second.

Regardless of how many go on for another three years to become fourth dan, the fact is that the pool of students left to move up to second is less than ten percent of the students who 'graduated.'

The fact is that of the students who graduate with their black belt, they are but a percentage of those who sign up for martial arts.  I'd be willing to bet that less than 60% of those who sign up for a martial arts class stick around and make it through the entire syllabus.  

So 90% of the remaining 60% quit after black belt.  Which means that probably 99% of those in your school will be gone after black belt.  

Kind of puts into perspective all those belt testing fees, extra clubs and programs, and putting black belts on kids.  If you only put them on the adult students, you get even less income and with a 99% drop out rate, every penny counts, and enrollment is vital in order to keep the flow of students coming in high enough for the school remain viable.


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## Gorilla

In 2005 my son was 8 and fighting at the black belt division at nationals. The kids in this division were very talented.  Each year we would see the kids and the parents at nationals.  Each year the pool dwindled.  This year the last kid quit the only one left is Charlie. Still training six days a week some times seven.  Will be leaving for the dojang in an hour.  My kids are very lucky to have found their passion at a very young age.  In April it will be 10 years in TKD almost 2 years in Shotokan and black belt in both and the privilege of training with some of the best Martial Artists in the world.  We are very lucky!


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## Haakon

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regardless of the many thoughts in the negative, black belts on children are here to stay.  One of the major factors in this is that the black belt has become a diploma of sorts.  You go through the school, you learn the syllabus, and when you're done, usually in about two years, you get your diploma.  Probably more than 90% leave at this point.
> 
> Some students stay on for another year and take the advanced material and stick around through second dan, receiving another diploma.  No idea how many leave at this point.
> 
> Some students stay on for another two years and take further advanced material, receiving a third diploma.  Again, no idea how many leave at this point, but I'd bet that more leave after third than leave after second.
> 
> Regardless of how many go on for another three years to become fourth dan, the fact is that the pool of students left to move up to second is less than ten percent of the students who 'graduated.'
> 
> The fact is that of the students who graduate with their black belt, they are but a percentage of those who sign up for martial arts.  I'd be willing to bet that less than 60% of those who sign up for a martial arts class stick around and make it through the entire syllabus.
> 
> So 90% of the remaining 60% quit after black belt.  Which means that probably 99% of those in your school will be gone after black belt.
> 
> Kind of puts into perspective all those belt testing fees, extra clubs and programs, and putting black belts on kids.  If you only put them on the adult students, you get even less income and with a 99% drop out rate, every penny counts, and enrollment is vital in order to keep the flow of students coming in high enough for the school remain viable.



Based on some other articles and threads it seems about 3% who start make it to black belt. Then maybe 3% of those reach 2nd dan, it wouldn't surprise me if it was an even smaller percentage who reached 3rd. That's 1:1,000 who reach 2nd dan and about 1:40,000 who reach 3rd. 

I think around 10% of black belts make it to 2nd at the school I train at, that's only 1:350, if 10% of those reach 3rd that's 1:10,000.

I wonder if drop out rates for gyms/health clubs is similar? Do 97% of clients quit within the first 3 years?


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## Kong Soo Do

Haakon said:


> I wonder if drop out rates for gyms/health clubs is similar? Do 97% of clients quit within the first 3 years?



It would seem there is a great swell in gym numbers because of the New Years resolutions, but most don't make it past February.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Haakon said:


> Based on some other articles and threads it seems about 3% who start make it to black belt. Then maybe 3% of those reach 2nd dan, it wouldn't surprise me if it was an even smaller percentage who reached 3rd. That's 1:1,000 who reach 2nd dan and about 1:40,000 who reach 3rd.
> 
> I think around 10% of black belts make it to 2nd at the school I train at, that's only 1:350, if 10% of those reach 3rd that's 1:10,000.
> 
> I wonder if drop out rates for gyms/health clubs is similar? Do 97% of clients quit within the first 3 years?



Probably more than that.  A lot of people want to get into shape but are not comfortable at the gym.  They figure out that they don't like being on display and they quit.  A good number of those people may try martial arts because the clothing is less revealing.  Not to mention that most people do not enjoy the gym; they'd rather be doing something else.  Since they don't have to go to the gym, as soon as a viable excuse manifests, they quit.


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## Gorilla

Two years ago this thread  had only 10k views now it at 18k!!!!

Seems to have a life of its own! 

Quick up date....my daughter will be 21 in 2015 and will be testing for 4th dan and my son will be 18 in 2015 and will also test for 4th Dan!  KKW Tkd!

My daughter will have 10 years experience in TKD and my son 14 years experience!


BTW they both have picked up a BB in Shotokan Karate along the way! 

Many people people have stated on this BBS that they don't deserve their BB!  I find that funny!


----------



## TrueJim

TKD_Father said:


> In whose eyes? Kukkiwon recognizes under 15 as a Poom, at his school he is a 1st Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. Not sure what the schools affiliation will put on his paperwork though. Have to wait a bit and see.
> 
> No he doesn't train 6 days x 2 hours per week. How many black belts reading this now do that? Every child progresses at different rates. Prior to a state tournament last year he was doing 5 days x 4 hours which included 2 hours of conditioning and 2 hours of sparring drills. He won the tourny.



For what it's worth, I agree with TKD_Father on this one. I guess it depends on your definition of Black Belt. At the school I go to (Kukkiwon-style), we have several kids in the 12-16 year-old range who've only been doing taekwondo for about three years, 3-4 times a week. They have their 1st dan black belts. They're absolutely amazing. Watching them do their forms is like watching one of the Kukkiwon videos on YouTube: the kids are flawless, with excellent snap and precision. Yes the only tournaments they go to are local tournaments (hundreds of competitors), so maybe they're not competing at National levels, but they're still beating out lots of other kids to win their trophies. They break well, they spar well, our school's Demo Team gets invited to far-away tournaments to put on their show, etc. I don't know how much more black-belty a person could be in the Kukkiwon-style than these guys are. (From the standpoint of demos/forms/breaking, it probably helps that our instructors used to be K-Tigers.)

Training for 8 years, 6 days a week, 2 hours a day...before getting to 1st dan/poom?  That sounds to me like an exceptionally high standard. Not that that's a bad thing of course, but I've seen kids with 3 years of training who are just excellent.


----------



## Cirdan

We should just issue mandatory 10th dans to every child born and be done with it.


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## Gorilla

Cirdan said:


> We should just issue mandatory 10th dans to every child born and be done with it.



Really don't get your point?


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## tshadowchaser

I see this thread is once again alive so I'll add to it

Youth black belts depend on what knowledge and ability the school issuing them requires.  My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk,  survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine  who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur.  
What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art  and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world


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## itsrosa82

In my opinion, this whole problem with young black belts stems from our attachment over the idea of what a black belt "should" mean. It's a personal opinion that we hold to so strongly it causes us to look down on others and their acheivements because our attachment to this idea somehow makes us believe that an "undeserving" person having a black belt demeans our own. Earning a black belt is a personal journey and regardless of age or ability level, if it's not our student in question, it's really none of our business. We should just be happy about our own accomplishments and worry less about what the school down the street is doing. Anyone who is emotionally invested enough to rant about the atrocity of child black belts on the internet doesn't really have a problem with young black belts. Their problem is the inability to let go of what they think a black belt should mean. As with all things all things in life, we are the cause of our own suffering.


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## Gorilla

tshadowchaser said:


> I see this thread is once again alive so I'll add to it
> 
> Youth black belts depend on what knowledge and ability the school issuing them requires.  My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk,  survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine  who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur.
> What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art  and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world



If that is your standard ok....but most adult BB that I know would not pass that standard!  It seems a standard that I have heard on the internet quite a lot though!

My advice is stay out of bars that would put you in danger!  If you find yourself in one leave!  Go find a place that is not so threatening or dangerous they do exist!

Based on a lot of what I have heard we should hold our BB tests in Bars!


----------



## Archtkd

tshadowchaser said:


> I see this thread is once again alive so I'll add to it
> 
> Youth black belts depend on what knowledge and ability the school issuing them requires.  My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk,  survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine  who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur.
> What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art  and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world


What does a 9, 10 or six year old have do do with teaching? Is it your understanidng that all taekwondo blackbelts teach? Blackbelt = teacher?


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## Dirty Dog

Archtkd said:


> What does a 9, 10 or six year old have do do with teaching? Is it your understanidng that all taekwondo blackbelts teach? Blackbelt = teacher?



In some schools, yes. That's the root of this whole topic. A black belt means different things to different systems, schools, and individuals. 
I've said repeatedly that we do not do baby black belts. Other schools do. The huge variance in the meaning of "Black Belt" is one of the reasons why belt ranks don't matter. Outside the narrow confines of the school that awards then, they mean nothing. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Tames D

Archtkd said:


> What does a 9, 10 or six year old have do do with teaching? Is it your understanidng that all taekwondo blackbelts teach? Blackbelt = teacher?



I don't believe black belts should be required to teach any more than I believe every master carpenter should be required to teach his trade at the local community college. There are alot of people that believe a martial arts student should be teaching as soon as they get their very first lesson as a white belt. It makes no sense to me.


----------



## TrueJim

tshadowchaser said:


> My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk,  survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine  who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur. What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art  and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world



I was reminded of this thread just now while reading this webpage: Questions | Grand Master Jong Soo Park   I'm not saying I agree with Grandmaster Jong Soo Park, but still...according to him (speaking about adults I assume): "If you train regularly you will be quite proficient and you will be able to defend yourself after six months." Again, I'm not saying I agree with that...seeing it just now reminded me of this thread.  Six months?  That's definitely a different point of view!

With regards to martial arts as a way to deal with real-world violence...  Hypothetically, if the defining quality of a Black Belt were in fact the ability to deal with real-world violence, then not only should children not be black belts, but neither should old people.


----------



## WaterGal

tshadowchaser said:


> I see this thread is once again alive so I'll add to it
> 
> Youth black belts depend on what knowledge and ability the school issuing them requires.  My question to those school is how can this 9,10 or 6 year old train me to defend against a knife attack, a drunk,  survive in a bar room brawl, defend myself against multiple opponents who are bigger and out weigh me, or deal with a marine  who has drank to much when they have possibly never seen these things, most certainly never been in the bars so they have no idea what the environment is likeand is way to young to appreciate the violence that may occur.
> What exactly are these kids with their vast knowledge of the art  and their black belt supposed to be able to pass on to an adult about the realities of violence in the real world



Well, like you say, it depends on what knowledge and ability is required of them.  KKW doesn't require anyone of any age to know how to defend themselves against a drunk Marine with a knife in order to get a black belt.

Also, why would a kid be teaching a class, just because they got a black belt?  Teaching is a different skill from doing.  Even someone that does know how to defend themselves against a drunk Marine with a knife doesn't necessarily know how to _teach_ that skill.


----------



## Archtkd

Dirty Dog said:


> In some schools, yes. That's the root of this whole topic. A black belt means different things to different systems, schools, and individuals.
> I've said repeatedly that we do not do baby black belts. Other schools do. The huge variance in the meaning of "Black Belt" is one of the reasons why belt ranks don't matter. Outside the narrow confines of the school that awards then, they mean nothing.
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



I want to know which taekwondo school -- one -- where 6-year old blackbelts are teaching.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Archtkd said:


> I want to know which taekwondo school -- one -- where 6-year old blackbelts are teaching.



No idea. As I said, we don't do baby black belts in part because we do expect a black belt to be able to teach.


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## tshadowchaser

In truth I did not see that this thread was in the TKD fora of the forum.
That however dose not change my personal opinion of youth black belts.
I belive that youth black belts have lowered the standard of what a black belt is and given the American (if not world) less respect for a person having a black belt.
 Years ago if a person had a black belt they had gone through some hard  sometimes brutal learning experences and could handle themselves in almost any situation. Today a black belt can be found almost every time you turn around and about half of them are youngsters. 
I'm not trying to bash TKD or the standards with in the different TKD associations. As I have just said I did not realize this thread was in the TKD section of the forum but that dose not change my mind on the  OP.
If your school system style what have you believes that a young child should have a black belt so be it just do not expect me to hold them in the same respect I do an adult black belt. (correction on that there are many adult black belts that child could most likely teach a few things to so No I do not hold all black belts with the same respect)


----------



## Archtkd

Dirty Dog said:


> No idea. As I said, we don't do baby black belts in part because we do expect a black belt to be able to teach.



That's interesting and I don't want to sound like I'm being rude or asking silly questions. Are you talking about all levels of blackbelts in your dojang? If that's the case how are they trained and certified to teach. Also how many blackbelts from your dojang have moved on to open their own succesful dojangs over, say, the last 10 years. My thinking is that your dojang must be producing a lot of teachers.


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## Dirty Dog

Archtkd said:


> That's interesting and I don't want to sound like I'm being rude or asking silly questions. Are you talking about all levels of blackbelts in your dojang? If that's the case how are they trained and certified to teach. Also how many blackbelts from your dojang have moved on to open their own succesful dojangs over, say, the last 10 years. My thinking is that your dojang must be producing a lot of teachers.



Yes, all levels.
But there are two things to keep in mind. 
One is ABLE to teach; not required, other than working with students at our school. 
Two is that most don't have any particular interest in opening their own school. I certainly don't. 
I've been associated with this school for 5 years. 

In that time, one opened a school as a 4th Dan. He has chosen to follow a more KKW-oriented path and is now a KKW 5th Dan. 

One 1st Dan (and her 1st geup husband) are with the local PD. They've done some local MMA competition and work with other officers on unarmed techniques. 

Two other 1st Dans were active in MA clubs at university. One is now in med school, the other is finishing a poli-sci masters and plans to join the Dept of State, hoping to become a diplomat. 

Another is pre-vet med. She also has a 10 acre plot that belongs to her family on which she runs an ongoing community service project to grow veggies for donation to local shelters and food banks. She's the only one of the three still local, and still training with us regularly. The other two come visit when they're in town. None of them are pursuing promotions at this point. 

One 2nd Dan is a Dept of Corrections officer. He's on their in-house version of SWAT (I don't recall what they call the team). He trains regularly, but is more interested in promotions at the DoC than Tae Kwon Do. 

Two other 1st Dans (mother and daughter) train only sporadically now. Mom teaches special needs at the elementary school level. She uses some of the drills she was taught to help kids work on focus, concentration, and coordination. Daughter is studying performing arts, but swears the Tae Kwon Do helps with dance. 

That's all the Dan promotions in that 5 year period. Only one new school, but all are people who use their training in positive, ongoing ways. 

The only certification to teach is GM signing the Dan certificate. Since the expectation is that you have to be capable of teaching the material you've been taught to get that rank, there's no real need for a separate piece of paper. It's different in a group the size of the KKW or ATA or ITF, of course.  


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## K-man

TrueJim said:


> With regards to martial arts as a way to deal with real-world violence...  Hypothetically, if the defining quality of a Black Belt were in fact the ability to deal with real-world violence, then not only should children not be black belts, but neither should old people.


I think there is a major difference. The guy that has the BB he earned as a child of 12 still thinks of himself as a BB in that style even when he moves on to something different like MMA. Often an older person who has decided the time is right to stop training no longer considers himself a black belt. In fact many of those, if they come back to training, will insist on wearing a white belt.

The sad part is that there is a fair chance the guy who went on to MMA will bag his original training as inadequate to defend himself. The good thing is that the older person could still use elements of his training to defend himself.
:asian:


----------



## Master Dan

itsrosa82 said:


> In my opinion, this whole problem with young black belts stems from our attachment over the idea of what a black belt "should" mean. It's a personal opinion that we hold to so strongly it causes us to look down on others and their acheivements because our attachment to this idea somehow makes us believe that an "undeserving" person having a black belt demeans our own. Earning a black belt is a personal journey and regardless of age or ability level, if it's not our student in question, it's really none of our business. We should just be happy about our own accomplishments and worry less about what the school down the street is doing. Anyone who is emotionally invested enough to rant about the atrocity of child black belts on the internet doesn't really have a problem with young black belts. Their problem is the inability to let go of what they think a black belt should mean. As with all things all things in life, we are the cause of our own suffering.


 Your statement is probably one of the best put premise in just a few words not just about youth black belts but it covers all opinions related to other styles, certifications or training that many times the true issue is with ourselves. Thank you


----------



## Gorilla

Master Dan said:


> Your statement is probably one of the best put premise in just a few words not just about youth black belts but it covers all opinions related to other styles, certifications or training that many times the true issue is with ourselves. Thank you



 You are right that is probably the best quote I have seen on this subject!


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## WaterGal

tshadowchaser said:


> In truth I did not see that this thread was in the TKD fora of the forum.
> That however dose not change my personal opinion of youth black belts.
> I belive that youth black belts have lowered the standard of what a black belt is and given the American (if not world) less respect for a person having a black belt.



I think that a lot of Americans have an over-inflated sense of what a black belt is, from watching too many martial arts movies.


----------



## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> I think that a lot of Americans have an over-inflated sense of what a black belt is, from watching too many martial arts movies.



It's equally valid (and more historically accurate) to say that the black belt has been watered down, in much the same way that college degrees have been watered down. At one time, a person earning either meant they had put in a lot of time and effort and had significant skills.

Now, I can show you people with a black belt who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, and people with Masters degrees who don't know the difference between your and you're.


----------



## Buka

I don't think anyone with a bedtime should be wearing a Black belt.


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## Gorilla

Buka said:


> I don't think anyone with a bedtime should be wearing a Black belt.



Ok, Elaborate...


----------



## Buka

Gorilla said:


> Ok, Elaborate...



Just an old man's opinion who's probably too old fashioned for today's day and age. I have a somewhat romanticized opinion of what I think a Black Belt should be. But there's a better chance of it raining cookies this afternoon than me ever changing that opinion. I sure hope so, anyway. 

Although......the idea of running down the street with an umbrella and a glass of milk.....


----------



## IcemanSK

One of the issues I've seen over the years is the mythical status one's own BB test takes on when compared to "today's" BB candidates. Like our forefathers' "when I was in school, we walked to school...ten miles....uphill, both ways!" and the way they told us their struggles were so much worse than our's. Our experience become normative for everyone else that comes along, yet our memories of how good we were, or what actually happened tend to be a bit on the fuzzy side. 

How we got our belts, who gave them to us, and what they mean to us are of tremendous importance to us. Folks outside of the arts don't really tend to understand that. But to point finger at one another & say how you got your's isn't valid or "that school gave a BB to that person?!" is the real thing that denigrates our Art; not how someone else who's neither our master, nor our student got their rank. It makes us all look petty and childish. Our focus needs to be makes ourselves, our training partners, and our students better martial artists. Not arguing over who should get what that we have no say or control over.


----------



## DETLTU

itsrosa82 said:


> In my opinion, this whole problem with young black belts stems from our attachment over the idea of what a black belt "should" mean. It's a personal opinion that we hold to so strongly it causes us to look down on others and their acheivements because our attachment to this idea somehow makes us believe that an "undeserving" person having a black belt demeans our own. Earning a black belt is a personal journey and regardless of age or ability level, if it's not our student in question, it's really none of our business. We should just be happy about our own accomplishments and worry less about what the school down the street is doing. Anyone who is emotionally invested enough to rant about the atrocity of child black belts on the internet doesn't really have a problem with young black belts. Their problem is the inability to let go of what they think a black belt should mean. As with all things all things in life, we are the cause of our own suffering.



I think this is just an excellent post.  I think one key thing here is that you shouldn't need someone else to respect your black belt.  My black belt is my black belt and no-one has to recognize it if they don't want to.  Respect is earned.  That certainly doesn't mean I won't treat other black belts with respect.  I hope that I can treat everyone, kids and adults with respect, until such time as they have earned that respect or done something bad enough where respect is no longer warranted.   The internet is not the place to earn respect, but i think we can still treat each other respectfully.


----------



## Buka

Just so it's known, my opinions come from training in TKD. While not my primary style, I love it as much as all of you here. Probably been in it longer, too.

Unless things have changed, I don't remember Black Belts being awarded in Korea until someone was at least in their mid teens. Not that that's written in stone, but I consider it as a good base line.


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## Gorilla

Buka said:


> Just so it's known, my opinions come from training in TKD. While not my primary style, I love it as much as all of you here. Probably been in it longer, too.
> 
> Unless things have changed, I don't remember Black Belts being awarded in Korea until someone was at least in their mid teens. Not that that's written in stone, but I consider it as a good base line.



Poom Rank is rewarded under 15 by the KKW in all countries!  Most wear BB Dan Rank is awarded after 15! We had my son's 3rd Poom changed to a Dan Rank when he turned 15. It was a simple transfer he is elgibe for 4th Dan at 18.


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## jezr74

I had always thought that Black Belt was just an indication of having learnt the basics.


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## PhotonGuy

jezr74 said:


> I had always thought that Black Belt was just an indication of having learnt the basics.



In most cases it is.


----------



## jezr74

PhotonGuy said:


> In most cases it is.



This is one subject I think there is a double standard. Practitioners can state that black is an indication of determination, dedication and having learnt the basics. But then can in the same sentence hold it out of reach because it should be revered and not achievable by some groups due to age, if they meet the club standards then so be it. Otherwise add 100 kg bench press to the grading and let that do the weeding for you.


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## Earl Weiss

OK, I will be one of the few to disagree here.   The general Public has no clue what MA is all about.  MA is really a case of buyer beware yet the general public often has no yardstick to measure the quality of the product they are buying.  On top of that you have the culture imposed by some instructors where any experience outside their universe is treated as a disloyal act further insulating the consumer from comparative analysis.  So, now you may have the consumers making huge investments in a faulty product / service.  All the while under the delusion that the piece of cloth around a waist assures them of a certain competency level as the general market out there that has the same colored cloth around their waist. Most importantly a product that may fail at a crucial time.


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## Gorilla

Earl Weiss said:


> OK, I will be one of the few to disagree here.   The general Public has no clue what MA is all about.  MA is really a case of buyer beware yet the general public often has no yardstick to measure the quality of the product they are buying.  On top of that you have the culture imposed by some instructors where any experience outside their universe is treated as a disloyal act further insulating the consumer from comparative analysis.  So, now you may have the consumers making huge investments in a faulty product / service.  All the while under the delusion that the piece of cloth around a waist assures them of a certain competency level as the general market out there that has the same colored cloth around their waist. Most importantly a product that may fail at a crucial time.



Lot of truth in what you are saying!  Many times people make assumptions about a particular Martial Artist/Art. They assume they can't defend himself based on the bias of that particular person making the judgement!  A good example is that people will say that a sport tkd fighter can't defend himself based on watching an Olympic Tkd match.  Even though these are supurbly trained athletes in superior condition who train 6 to 8 hours a day!  The same can be said about youth BB  or Poom belts which is the case with the KKW some may be very proficient and others may be lacking. Those making the judgements invariably are making them with insufficient information!


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## WaterGal

Buka said:


> Just so it's known, my opinions come from training in TKD. While not my primary style, I love it as much as all of you here. Probably been in it longer, too.
> 
> Unless things have changed, I don't remember Black Belts being awarded in Korea until someone was at least in their mid teens. Not that that's written in stone, but I consider it as a good base line.



Nah, Koreans will issue a poom ranking to young kids, and have for a long time.  That's why KKW's minimum age for a 4th Dan is 18.


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## ATC

Crazy this thread is still going!


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## Gorilla

ATC said:


> Crazy this thread is still going!



Terry pointed out that the TKD forum was dead!  I drudged my old thread up to liven things up a bit!

funny thing since 2012 it got 8k views....with no posts...just sitting on the back burner!

This thread draws a lot of interest...It was my first post on Martial Talk 5 years ago...


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## Dirty Dog

ATC said:


> Crazy this thread is still going!



As long as there are groups that will give a black belt to a 6 year old and groups that require you to catch a bullet in your teeth before earning your BB (only a .22, after all... let's not be crazy.) this debate will continue.


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## IcemanSK

Gorilla said:


> Terry pointed out that the TKD forum was dead!  I drudged my old thread up to liven things up a bit!
> 
> funny thing since 2012 it got 8k views....with no posts...just sitting on the back burner!
> 
> This thread draws a lot of interest...It was my first post on Martial Talk 5 years ago...



I think the fact that there's so much interest in an old worn out topic proves Terry's point. There's little else to talk about in the TKD than who deserves a BB, apparently.


----------



## Gorilla

IcemanSK said:


> I think the fact that there's so much interest in an old worn out topic proves Terry's point. There's little else to talk about in the TKD than who deserves a BB, apparently.



Maybe?


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## Buka

IcemanSK said:


> I think the fact that there's so much interest in an old worn out topic proves Terry's point. There's little else to talk about in the TKD than who deserves a BB, apparently.



I know that's tongue in cheek, but I disagree anyway. I think there's lots of things to talk about. Side  kicks for instance. Which way do you throw them the best? Say, in a self  defense scenario? As a counter with your front leg to someone rushing?  How about a long one to bridge distance? Do you like a step up? Crossing  in front or in back? How about a hopping side kick? A fall away side  kick? (I always like the look on their face when they run into that )  Do you favor the ribs, stomach, hips, chest? Do any of you guys throw a  high one, I don't mean in class, but rather if you had the opening in  self defense? How much better is your right leg compared to your left?  (and don't give me they're both awesome, because every kicker has a  better leg) Do you use it as a fake? In a combo? In conjunction with a  punch?

Heck, I could go on and on about side kicks. How the hell can you not love a good side kick?


----------



## Gorilla

Buka said:


> I know that's tongue in cheek, but I disagree anyway. I think there's lots of things to talk about. Side  kicks for instance. Which way do you throw them the best? Say, in a self  defense scenario? As a counter with your front leg to someone rushing?  How about a long one to bridge distance? Do you like a step up? Crossing  in front or in back? How about a hopping side kick? A fall away side  kick? (I always like the look on their face when they run into that )  Do you favor the ribs, stomach, hips, chest? Do any of you guys throw a  high one, I don't mean in class, but rather if you had the opening in  self defense? How much better is your right leg compared to your left?  (and don't give me they're both awesome, because every kicker has a  better leg) Do you use it as a fake? In a combo? In conjunction with a  punch?
> 
> Heck, I could go on and on about side kicks. How the hell can you not love a good side kick?



Start a thread see how it goes!


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## Gorilla

This thread went over 20k views...never really dies!


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## Twin Fist

yeah, lets revisit this topic again............


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## Gorilla

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, lets revisit this topic again............



How is everything in Nacogdoches?  Yep this thread never dies!!!!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, lets revisit this topic again............



Good to see you on the board!!!


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## Cho, Yeonsoo

Gorilla said:


> I just got started on this forum and I am just a parent.  Albeit one who has invested a lot of time and $ in (WTF) TKD.  I think that most would agree that a Black Belt should not be granted before 10 years old.  Has anyone on this board ever seen a Black Belt under the age of 10 that deserved their Black Belt.  I can think of few.
> 
> This is the Criteria.
> 
> 1.  They have to pass the adult test not a dumbed down test.
> 2.  The have to have the professional demeanor of a Black Belt.
> 3.  They must be able to train with adults.
> 4.  They must be able to assist in class.
> 5.  They must understand the responsibilities of a Black Belt.
> 
> I can count 3 kids that I know that met this standard and 1 was 7 1/2 years old.
> 
> I saw all three of them get promoted by KKW 9th degree.  He did not compromise his standards.  All 3 are currently still doing TKD and have been promoted to second degree.


I'm 14 years of age, started when I was 6, I like to think I deserve my 1st Dan, I went, and failed one grading, which actually tells you that you need to be of a good standard, I train with adults, I am able to assist the young ones more so in the kicks rather than patterns, :boing2:I passed grading graded by master Sung Soo Lee so yes, I think I deserve mine


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## Archtkd

Cho said:


> I'm 14 years of age, started when I was 6, I like to think I deserve my 1st Dan, I went, and failed one grading, which actually tells you that you need to be of a good standard, I train with adults, I am able to assist the young ones more so in the kicks rather than patterns, :boing2:I passed grading graded by master Sung Soo Lee so yes, I think I deserve mine



I thought you had to be 18 to have an MT account and post on the boards. What style of taekwondo do you practice?


----------



## Dirty Dog

Cho said:


> I'm 14 years of age, started when I was 6, I like to think I deserve my 1st Dan, I went, and failed one grading, which actually tells you that you need to be of a good standard, I train with adults, I am able to assist the young ones more so in the kicks rather than patterns, :boing2:I passed grading graded by master Sung Soo Lee so yes, I think I deserve mine



By the standards of your school, you apparently do. By the standards of others, you absolutely would not.


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## Gorilla

Cho said:


> I'm 14 years of age, started when I was 6, I like to think I deserve my 1st Dan, I went, and failed one grading, which actually tells you that you need to be of a good standard, I train with adults, I am able to assist the young ones more so in the kicks rather than patterns, :boing2:I passed grading graded by master Sung Soo Lee so yes, I think I deserve mine




i am sure that you do...good luck on your journey...I hope it is a life long one....


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## Cho, Yeonsoo

Archtkd said:


> I thought you had to be 18 to have an MT account and post on the boards. What style of taekwondo do you practice?


well, I didn't know either... I put my real age and an admin put me through. :idunno: but on the TKD subject, I do traditional, with parts of Hapkido in our curriculum, he absolutely loves Hapkido and thus wants us to learn that too. He urges me to learn the Patterns and all traditional aspects (he is VERY strict) but he also wants me to delve deeper into competition and sports type as I enjoy it, because of school and other sports, I cannot afford to attend more classes  especially since the competition Dojang is very far away... I started Taekwondo because my parents urged me, they said that I need to learn a traditional art from my culture and I'll be honest, I didn't enjoy it at first, my instructor is strict on form and I had to train with adults... But now, I try to delve into both competitive and traditional...


----------



## Cho, Yeonsoo

Dirty Dog said:


> By the standards of your school, you apparently do. By the standards of others, you absolutely would not.


I imagine so, my club isn't the best, largest club around, but it isn't corrupt like other commercial schools, it is small and not well known. However, I tried for 3 long years for this belt, training every day at home and making sure to go to classes atleast twice a week (this was hard as school and other sports were also in schedule) and would stay longer with my instructor, I'm sure that by some club standards, I would be below average, but I tried very hard and our club standards are quite high (no way near some I know) yet maybe lower than yours, I respect your comment sir, but please, not all clubs are like the big commercialized ones these days...


----------



## Cho, Yeonsoo

Gorilla said:


> i am sure that you do...good luck on your journey...I hope it is a life long one....


thank you, I hope so too


----------



## Archtkd

Cho said:


> well, I didn't know either... I put my real age and an admin put me through. :idunno: but on the TKD subject, I do traditional, with parts of Hapkido in our curriculum, he absolutely loves Hapkido and thus wants us to learn that too. He urges me to learn the Patterns and all traditional aspects (he is VERY strict) but he also wants me to delve deeper into competition and sports type as I enjoy it, because of school and other sports, I cannot afford to attend more classes...



Traditional is often a misused term. What is traditional? Every taekwondo style is traditional (i.e it follows one type of tradition or other). Maybe these might be easier. What forms (poomsae, tul, hyung, etc.) do you practice? Taeguk, Palgwe, Chang Hon, Songham, Pinan, ..? How do you spar? Point, continous full contact, etc. What type of gear do you wear for sparring and what rules do you apply. What organization is your dojang (dojang style) aligned with. ITF, ATA, Kukkiwon, Rhee, ITA, etc.


----------



## Cho, Yeonsoo

Archtkd said:


> Traditional is often a misused term. What is traditional? Every taekwondo style is traditional (i.e it follows one type of tradition or other). Maybe these might be easier. What forms (poomsae, tul, hyung, etc.) do you practice? Taeguk, Palgwe, Chang Hon, Songham, Pinan, ..? How do you spar? Point, continous full contact, etc. What type of gear do you wear for sparring and what rules do you apply. What organization is your dojang (dojang style) aligned with. ITF, ATA, Kukkiwon, Rhee, ITA, etc.


Ah! that's what was meant! to spar, we wear no gear and contact is allowed, every once in a while, our instructor brings in all the competition gear, having a mini tournament lesson (usually atleast once a term), we revise all taeguk patterns and all the patterns relating to belt level, Kumgang, Koryo etc. when we equip gear, all under the age of 16 are not allowed intentional head kicks as it is against the rules of our club.


----------



## jks9199

Archtkd said:


> I thought you had to be 18 to have an MT account and post on the boards. What style of taekwondo do you practice?



We recently removed the age requirement.  The new owners felt that anyone who contributed positively should be welcome.


----------



## Archtkd

Cho said:


> Ah! that's what was meant! to spar, we wear no gear and contact is allowed, every once in a while, our instructor brings in all the competition gear, having a mini tournament lesson (usually atleast once a term), we revise all taeguk patterns and all the patterns relating to belt level, Kumgang, Koryo etc. when we equip gear, all under the age of 16 are not allowed intentional head kicks as it is against the rules of our club.


Sounds to me like you are doing Kukkiwon style taekwondo and if that's the case you are not a a 1st dan, but a 1st poom blackbelt.


----------



## Cho, Yeonsoo

Archtkd said:


> Sounds to me like you are doing Kukkiwon style taekwondo and if that's the case you are not a a 1st dan, but a 1st poom blackbelt.


Thankyou for the correction, however, I am a 1st dan, I was a poom but have recently moved to first dan (after failing to grade once) my belt and my certificate is yet to arrive however...

My school seems to be a part of the Jidokwan as our chong Kowanjangnim is grand master Sung Soo Lee, also stated in my Dan Bo certificate..


----------



## stkdh

It's been a while since I have posted and I am sorry that this is more of a rant but rather than start a new thread it seemed relevant here.
I have just found out that a club nearby me has not only promoted a 6 year old to black belt but has plastered it all over the newspapers as if it is a good thing!!!! I am all for junior black belts but at 6 years, are you kidding me!!!!!!! and the club website lists the curriculum from 10th kup to 1st kup having a new pattern every time and only 8 weeks between grades. This guy has no idea what he is doing!!!!


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## WaterGal

Cho said:


> Thankyou for the correction, however, I am a 1st dan, I was a poom but have recently moved to first dan (after failing to grade once) my belt and my certificate is yet to arrive however...
> 
> My school seems to be a part of the Jidokwan as our chong Kowanjangnim is grand master Sung Soo Lee, also stated in my Dan Bo certificate..



Not sure what Jidokwan is, but with Kukkiwon, you can't get a dan ranking until you're 15.  That's the rule - a black belt under 15 is a poom, a black belt 15+ is a dan.


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> Not sure what Jidokwan is, but with Kukkiwon, you can't get a dan ranking until you're 15.  That's the rule - a black belt under 15 is a poom, a black belt 15+ is a dan.



The Jidokwan is one of the nine kwans (schools) that started the unification process that led to the formation of the Kukkiwon.
There are still many, many schools affiliated with specific kwans, even if they are also associated with other orgs. Our school, for example, is a Moo Duk Kwan school, but we also offer KKW certification to *adults* who desire it.


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## Cho, Yeonsoo

stkdh said:


> It's been a while since I have posted and I am sorry that this is more of a rant but rather than start a new thread it seemed relevant here.
> I have just found out that a club nearby me has not only promoted a 6 year old to black belt but has plastered it all over the newspapers as if it is a good thing!!!! I am all for junior black belts but at 6 years, are you kidding me!!!!!!! and the club website lists the curriculum from 10th kup to 1st kup having a new pattern every time and only 8 weeks between grades. This guy has no idea what he is doing!!!!


6 years old?? heck, our club doesn't allow you to go to grading at that age!


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## Archtkd

jks9199 said:


> We recently removed the age requirement.  The new owners felt that anyone who contributed positively should be welcome.


I wish the new owners the best of luck with that revised policy.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

I think it's a good idea to look at the person as a whole.  Some 15 year olds may be more technically adept, more positive in attitude, and more constructive in their teaching than some other "adult black belt".  Give me the choice betweem those 2 people, and I'd rather learn from the 15 year old.


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## Buka

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think it's a good idea to look at the person as a whole.  Some 15 year olds may be more technically adept, more positive in attitude, and more constructive in their teaching than some other "adult black belt".  Give me the choice betweem those 2 people, and I'd rather learn from the 15 year old.


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## Gorilla

Buka said:


>





Seemed serious to me...There are some very good 15 year old BB that know more and may have been training longer than some so called adult BB!   The Key word is some!


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## Buka

I'm just funnin' with you guys. (I like the pic of the Joker)

I'll even support your argument.....in ANY dojo that has more than one person teaching, when we, as students, are heading to the dojo, we all think at some point, "I wonder who's teaching class tonight?" Because we all have our druthers. And when we get there, if it's who we prefer, we all give a little fist pump inside. 

I don't think that will ever change. I don't think it should.


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## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> The Jidokwan is one of the nine kwans (schools) that started the unification process that led to the formation of the Kukkiwon.
> There are still many, many schools affiliated with specific kwans, even if they are also associated with other orgs. Our school, for example, is a Moo Duk Kwan school, but we also offer KKW certification to *adults* who desire it.



Okay, thanks for the info!  I probably should spend some time studying the history of TKD in more detail at some point, so I'd know these things, haha.  I honestly don't know much about different TKD kwans.


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## WaterGal

stkdh said:


> It's been a while since I have posted and I am sorry that this is more of a rant but rather than start a new thread it seemed relevant here.
> I have just found out that a club nearby me has not only promoted a 6 year old to black belt but has plastered it all over the newspapers as if it is a good thing!!!! I am all for junior black belts but at 6 years, are you kidding me!!!!!!! and the club website lists the curriculum from 10th kup to 1st kup having a new pattern every time and only 8 weeks between grades. This guy has no idea what he is doing!!!!



6 is really young, yeah.  An adult or older kid/teen can learn a Taegeuk form pretty well in 8 weeks if they practice enough, but a 4-5 year old usually needs more like 4-8 months.  I just can't see how a kid much younger than 8 could be ready to test for a 1st poom.


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## andyjeffries

WaterGal said:


> Okay, thanks for the info!  I probably should spend some time studying the history of TKD in more detail at some point, so I'd know these things, haha.  I honestly don't know much about different TKD kwans.



This is a translation in to English of the first part of a Korean book on Taekwondo's history and the kwans.  It was translated by Puunui and his students, he put it out for public consumption and had no problem with me making a PDF of it.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/478290/From Google Drive/tkdhistory.pdf


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## Archtkd

WaterGal said:


> Okay, thanks for the info!  I probably should spend some time studying the history of TKD in more detail at some point, so I'd know these things, haha.  I honestly don't know much about different TKD kwans.



That should be a little embarrasing if you are an adult Kukkiwon taekwondo blackbelt? The 10 main taekwondo Kwans didn't officially disband and unite until 1978, so all Kukkiwon taekwondoin have a fairly recent kwan lineage.


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## andyjeffries

Archtkd said:


> That should be a little embarrasing if you are an adult Kukkiwon taekwondo blackbelt? The 10 main taekwondo Kwans didn't officially disband and unite until 1978, so all Kukkiwon taekwondoin have a fairly recent kwan lineage.



I completely disagree, it's not embarrassing it's quite normal.

A lot of the instructors are taught only that there were kwans and that they combined to form Kukkiwon and that they do Kukkiwon Taekwondo (a lot are even told they do WTF Taekwondo).  They then pass this on to their students.

It's only the fact that I was interested in learning more that I found out about the kwans, asked my instructor what kwan he was from that I found I have a strong link with Changmookwan.  They were only mentioned briefly on the Kukkiwon instructor course during one small part of the history lecture.

Anyway, good on you if you want to know, if you don't then as long as you know you do Kukkiwon Taekwondo, then I'm happy


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## IcemanSK

andyjeffries said:


> I completely disagree, it's not embarrassing it's quite normal.
> 
> A lot of the instructors are taught only that there were kwans and that they combined to form Kukkiwon and that they do Kukkiwon Taekwondo (a lot are even told they do WTF Taekwondo).  They then pass this on to their students.
> 
> It's only the fact that I was interested in learning more that I found out about the kwans, asked my instructor what kwan he was from that I found I have a strong link with Changmookwan.  They were only mentioned briefly on the Kukkiwon instructor course during one small part of the history lecture.
> 
> Anyway, good on you if you want to know, if you don't then as long as you know you do Kukkiwon Taekwondo, then I'm happy



I tend to agree. kwan lineage is not something taught by all instructors. Heck, I know some instructors who never even utter they're own instructor's name to their students. Out of thin air some instructors seem to have learned our Art. There are a lot of reasons for this. My first master never discussed kwan lineage (even after I asked). He was a Korean-born man who was not, by any means, a chatty person. If he talked at all, he wanted to know more about his students and what was important to us. I pieced together his kwan lineage by what masters he was connected with and then connected the dots.

As far as why some don't talk about their instructors....it's usually due to a strained relationship of some sort. I'm learned to be quite leery of folks who don't talk about their own instructors. Many have the most wonderful stories of their own exploits, but speak badly of others.


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## drop bear

Buka said:


> I'm just funnin' with you guys. (I like the pic of the Joker)
> 
> I'll even support your argument.....in ANY dojo that has more than one person teaching, when we, as students, are heading to the dojo, we all think at some point, "I wonder who's teaching class tonight?" Because we all have our druthers. And when we get there, if it's who we prefer, we all give a little fist pump inside.
> 
> I don't think that will ever change. I don't think it should.



I certainly take instruction from this guy.
Jake a real knock-out in Rocky | Whitsunday Times

Because he is a veteran and champion boxer. And I am not.


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## Archtkd

IcemanSK said:


> I tend to agree. kwan lineage is not something taught by all instructors. Heck, I know some instructors who never even utter they're own instructor's name to their students. Out of thin air some instructors seem to have learned our Art. There are a lot of reasons for this. My first master never discussed kwan lineage (even after I asked). He was a Korean-born man who was not, by any means, a chatty person. If he talked at all, he wanted to know more about his students and what was important to us. I pieced together his kwan lineage by what masters he was connected with and then connected the dots.
> 
> As far as why some don't talk about their instructors....it's usually due to a strained relationship of some sort. I'm learned to be quite leery of folks who don't talk about their own instructors. Many have the most wonderful stories of their own exploits, but speak badly of others.



OK. Maybe embarrasing is too strong a term or misplaced altogether. I often assume adults past 1st dan would want to know more about the martial art they practice and do their own independent study and find their lineage. Also, the kwan issues have been discussed on this boards for long , so I thought the more active MT taekwondo forum members would develop a curiosity to investigate what the fuss is all about.


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## TrueJim

WaterGal said:


> Okay, thanks for the info!  I probably should spend some time studying the history of TKD in more detail at some point, so I'd know these things, haha.  I honestly don't know much about different TKD kwans.



Here are some references if you're interested:
Taekwondo History - Taekwondo Wiki
Nine Kwans - Taekwondo Wiki


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## Buka

My TKD instructor didn't go into the history of the art. He did speak at great lengths about his instructor, Jong Soo Park. I always loved the stories. Now, though, I kind of wish he had gone more into the history.


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## andyjeffries

IcemanSK said:


> As far as why some don't talk about their instructors....it's usually due to a strained relationship of some sort. I'm learned to be quite leery of folks who don't talk about their own instructors. Many have the most wonderful stories of their own exploits, but speak badly of others.



Both of my instructors were always very clear about the kwan system, but never really brought up or talked much about kwans.  The answer was always effectively "just worry about Kukkiwon and WTF".

Now I have a stronger relationship with my kwan, I spoke to my grandmaster about it, and even arranged for him to sit his 9th Dan at our kwan (and when he was there, the kwanjang showed him some early pictures from the kwan and my grandmaster was in them - with much more hair so they hadn't recognised him).


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## Daniel Sullivan

Gorilla said:


> I just got started on this forum and I am just a parent.  Albeit one who has invested a lot of time and $ in (WTF) TKD.  I think that most would agree that a Black Belt should not be granted before 10 years old.  Has anyone on this board ever seen a Black Belt under the age of 10 that deserved their Black Belt.  I can think of few.
> 
> This is the Criteria.
> 
> 1.  They have to pass the adult test not a dumbed down test.
> 2.  The have to have the professional demeanor of a Black Belt.
> 3.  They must be able to train with adults.
> 4.  They must be able to assist in class.
> 5.  They must understand the responsibilities of a Black Belt.
> 
> I can count 3 kids that I know that met this standard and 1 was 7 1/2 years old.
> 
> I saw all three of them get promoted by KKW 9th degree.  He did not compromise his standards.  All 3 are currently still doing TKD and have been promoted to second degree.


My opinion on this topic has evolved a lot since I first came to this forum roughly eight years ago.

I view a chodan/ildan as a beginner's degree (in fact, in a chodan, a term used by more than a few TKD schools) literally means 'beginning dan.'

The following does not apply to belt-mills (schools that promote students on a time track in order to maximize the money they make during the students' contract period).

The awarding of a first dan means (or should mean) that the student has attained proficiency in the basic skills of the art and that they have now learned how to learn.

A first dan should not indicate that the individual is a teacher or a junior instructor, though a first dan should be able to lead a partner in drills and should be able to explain things to newer students, regardless of the differences in age between them.

Since children are most often in a childrens class, the dynamic of an eight year old instructing an adult should not come up. Fifteen year olds are generally in adult classes, and a newer adult student should not have any problem being led in a drill or receiving explanation from a fifteen year old black belt.

At the same time, the fifteen year old should not be expected to be able to pulverize an adult just because he or she wears a belt. A class of freshly minted black belts who are all adult ex-military (which is what many of the black belts were in the seventies when TKD was being grown in the US) are going to look like hard edged tough guys/gals because they're adults who are ex military, not because of their belt.

So in short, "no" on one and two (what the _professional_ demeanor of a blackbelt anyway?), yes/no on three (yes, a youth black belt should be able to drill and perform pumse with adults, and should be able to do controlled sparring, but no, a youth black belt should not be expected to go full contact in an adult class for the same reason that flyweight women aren't expected to fight heavyweight men in TKD competitions), "yes" on four and five.


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## Gorilla

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My opinion on this topic has evolved a lot since I first came to this forum roughly eight years ago.
> 
> I view a chodan/ildan as a beginner's degree (in fact, in a chodan, a term used by more than a few TKD schools) literally means 'beginning dan.'
> 
> The following does not apply to belt-mills (schools that promote students on a time track in order to maximize the money they make during the students' contract period).
> 
> The awarding of a first dan means (or should mean) that the student has attained proficiency in the basic skills of the art and that they have now learned how to learn.
> 
> A first dan should not indicate that the individual is a teacher or a junior instructor, though a first dan should be able to lead a partner in drills and should be able to explain things to newer students, regardless of the differences in age between them.
> 
> Since children are most often in a childrens class, the dynamic of an eight year old instructing an adult should not come up. Fifteen year olds are generally in adult classes, and a newer adult student should not have any problem being led in a drill or receiving explanation from a fifteen year old black belt.
> 
> At the same time, the fifteen year old should not be expected to be able to pulverize an adult just because he or she wears a belt. A class of freshly minted black belts who are all adult ex-military (which is what many of the black belts were in the seventies when TKD was being grown in the US) are going to look like hard edged tough guys/gals because they're adults who are ex military, not because of their belt.
> 
> So in short, "no" on one and two (what the _professional_ demeanor of a blackbelt anyway?), yes/no on three (yes, a youth black belt should be able to drill and perform pumse with adults, and should be able to do controlled sparring, but no, a youth black belt should not be expected to go full contact in an adult class for the same reason that flyweight women aren't expected to fight heavyweight men in TKD competitions), "yes" on four and five.




Best post so far on this thread!  Well done sir!


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## WaterGal

Archtkd said:


> That should be a little embarrasing if you are an adult Kukkiwon taekwondo blackbelt? The 10 main taekwondo Kwans didn't officially disband and unite until 1978, so all Kukkiwon taekwondoin have a fairly recent kwan lineage.



That doesn't mean that teachers talk about kwans, even the Korean ones that were training before 1978.  I think they generally assume that Americans don't care about that kind of stuff, or their English is poor enough that they don't know how to explain it.  The Korean master that I got my 1st and 2nd dans with seemed to feel that way (probably some of each), and he's old enough and been training long enough that he would've probably been at least a 1st poom by 1978.  He never said much of anything about TKD history or his own lineage.


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> That doesn't mean that teachers talk about kwans, even the Korean ones that were training before 1978.  I think they generally assume that Americans don't care about that kind of stuff, or their English is poor enough that they don't know how to explain it.  The Korean master that I got my 1st and 2nd dans with seemed to feel that way (probably some of each), and he's old enough and been training long enough that he would've probably been at least a 1st poom by 1978.  He never said much of anything about TKD history or his own lineage.



As much as anything, it's likely because you're (from what I have seen) pretty much pure KKW TKD. As far as the KKW is concerned, the Kwans are gone, and of no further importance. They've gone so far as to "officially" disband the kwans a few years back.


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## Gorilla

In 1960 our original GM was promoted 1st Poom/Dan....he was a member of Song Moo Kwan under the legendary GM Yong Sup Lee...he was 8 years old! He started training at 5....clearly they had no problem with youth BB!


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## donald1

I don't know who that is but if he earned it and later became a grandmaster then he must have been an extraordinary student (a little skeptic but dosnt matter)  Never met him so not my place to put opinion
However whether he a prodigy,  most kids are not.  IMO i never met any person 10 or younger quite that skilled,  16 is still skeptic (very possible if they are mature for there age but that's fair if earned it.  Though preferred age is 18+


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## Gorilla

donald1 said:


> I don't know who that is but if he earned it and later became a grandmaster then he must have been an extraordinary student (a little skeptic but dosnt matter)  Never met him so not my place to put opinion
> However whether he a prodigy,  most kids are not.  IMO i never met any person 10 or younger quite that skilled,  16 is still skeptic (very possible if they are mature for there age but that's fair if earned it.  Though preferred age is 18+




Sent you you a PM with his info....thanks for participating...


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## drop bear

Remember Jake brown the 16 year old boxer?

Won again over the weekend gave up 5 kg on the guy.


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## gorilla2

I am the Original Op on this thread...long ago I forgot my password so I started a new account...maybe some of my old Martial Talk friends are still on here...Both my kids are still doing TKD and are 4th Degree BB...my daughter is a school owner and a real estate agent...my son is in the US Army and part of the World Class Athlete Program a full time member of the US Army Taekwondo Team...they have been involved in Taekwondo for 17 years...the best thing I ever did was put them in TKD


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## CB Jones

gorilla2 said:


> I am the Original Op on this thread...long ago I forgot my password so I started a new account...maybe some of my old Martial Talk friends are still on here...Both my kids are still doing TKD and are 4th Degree BB...my daughter is a school owner and a real estate agent...my son is in the US Army and part of the World Class Athlete Program a full time member of the US Army Taekwondo Team...they have been involved in Taekwondo for 17 years...the best thing I ever did was put them in TKD



Welcome back.

Is your son at West Point?

The West Point team competed at one of our tournaments a few years back....good group of men and women.


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## dvcochran

gorilla2 said:


> I am the Original Op on this thread...long ago I forgot my password so I started a new account...maybe some of my old Martial Talk friends are still on here...Both my kids are still doing TKD and are 4th Degree BB...my daughter is a school owner and a real estate agent...my son is in the US Army and part of the World Class Athlete Program a full time member of the US Army Taekwondo Team...they have been involved in Taekwondo for 17 years...the best thing I ever did was put them in TKD


Welcome back to the forum.


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## Gerry Seymour

gorilla2 said:


> I am the Original Op on this thread...long ago I forgot my password so I started a new account...maybe some of my old Martial Talk friends are still on here...Both my kids are still doing TKD and are 4th Degree BB...my daughter is a school owner and a real estate agent...my son is in the US Army and part of the World Class Athlete Program a full time member of the US Army Taekwondo Team...they have been involved in Taekwondo for 17 years...the best thing I ever did was put them in TKD


Welcome back, Gorilla.


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## gorilla2

CB Jones said:


> Welcome back.
> 
> Is your son at West Point?
> 
> The West Point team competed at one of our tournaments a few years back....good group of men and women.


He is in the Regular Army Ft Carson assigned to the World Class Athlete Program


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