# Candles, Oranges and Ping Pong Balls, Oh My?!



## soul_sword34 (Jul 14, 2006)

Like the title says.  Can anyone explain the benefits of such exercises.  Snuffing out candles with a bokken/gum.  Cutting an orange off of a tameshigiri stand.  Slicing a ping pong ball out of the air.  What is the benefit by cutting a long sheet of paper with Shinken?  I have my opinions and would like to hear yours.  Thanks.  Howard you may enter.  Cha Ryut!!


----------



## Charles Mahan (Jul 14, 2006)

I wonder how many people will have anything positive to say about this sort of thing.  I doubt you'll find anyone in the traditional JSA world that has anything supportive to offer.

Is this really normal within the KSA world?


----------



## pgsmith (Jul 14, 2006)

> Like the title says. Can anyone explain the benefits of such exercises.


  I cannot explain any benefits of these exercises, as I see no benefits to be had. Playing dangerous games with swords will not teach me anything that I cannot learn traditionally. Of course, maybe you are not talking about Japanese swords at all, in which case I have no experience, but still see no benefit.


----------



## howard (Jul 14, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> I wonder how many people will have anything positive to say about this sort of thing. I doubt you'll find anyone in the traditional JSA world that has anything supportive to offer.
> 
> Is this really normal within the KSA world?


Charles, in Chung Suk Kuhapdo, we cut soaked and rolled-and-tied tatami.  No real difference here from traditional Iaido.

I've seen the candle snuffing and orange cutting in Hae Dong Gum Do.  The way I've seen it done, it's not dangerous (the candles and oranges are on cutting stands, not being held by another student).  It appears to me to be drills to improve accuracy.  Perhaps Dustin can elaborate.

I've also seen videos of Hae Dong Gum Do forms where they do forward rolls with live blades.  Fine with me if you like it, but we don't do anything like that in Kuhapdo.

For forms practice (kata, if you like), we typically use genuine hand-forged blades, but they are not sharp.  Except for that, they are identical to a live blade - hamon and all.

I invite you all once again to visit the Jungkikwan website and have a look at the material about Kuhapdo.  We are a small organization whose main focus is on a very traditional form of Hapkido (as Choi Young Sool taught it), but our sword art is an integral part of our overall curriculum.

If you check out the Kuhapdo tape that's available on the Jungkikwan website, it's actually a tape of MJER forms - it's a set of 11 short forms, which begins with a four-part form done from seiza, in which you draw, cut horizontally, cut vertically and re-sheath along the four points of the compass.  I believe that in Japanese these 11 kata are called Ni Honme, San Bonme, Yon Honme, Go Honme, Ropponme and so on... perhaps you can clarify?  Thanks...


----------



## mrhnau (Jul 14, 2006)

soul_sword34 said:
			
		

> Like the title says.  Can anyone explain the benefits of such exercises.  Snuffing out candles with a bokken/gum.  Cutting an orange off of a tameshigiri stand.  Slicing a ping pong ball out of the air.  What is the benefit by cutting a long sheet of paper with Shinken?  I have my opinions and would like to hear yours.  Thanks.  Howard you may enter.  Cha Ryut!!



I'm not a member of a specific sword art, so I'm no huge expert... but I'll take a stab at it (no pun intended ;-) )

I imagine its working on precision. Targetting a watermelon as opposed to an orange would conceivable improve your control. I think the candle is the same. For practical purposes, do you care if you strike an opponent on the nose or in the eye? I don't know... I don't go around slicing/striking people on a regular basis. I imagine its practical somehow :idunno:

Ping pong balls somewhat make sense. I expect you are not frequently planning on realistically striking someone standing perfectly still like I frequently see done during tameshigiri. I expect having moving targets would add a bit of realism into the striking with a live weapon. I'm assuming you don't want to spar with a live blade  I think a ping pong ball is a bit small (then again, i've not tried it), but I think something like a baseball, softball or orange/apple would be a fun target. The motion is still predictable, but I think it could improve control.

just my $.02


----------



## Charles Mahan (Jul 14, 2006)

Howard.  I checked the Junkikwan video.  I believe that is Grandmaster Lim who is discussed in this thread http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50472&highlight=Sekiguchi+korea

This particular variety of Kuhapdo apparently originates with Sekiguchi Komei, who leads the Komei Jyuku branch of MJER.  Very very different from what we do in the Seitokai branch led by Ikeda-soke.  I haven't the foggiest idea why it was necessary to rename the art. Why is it called Kuhapdo?  Why isn't it just the Korean organization affiliated with Komei Jyuku MJER?  Could you enlighten me on that particular bit of oddness?


----------



## Swordlady (Jul 14, 2006)

I'm also not a practioner of any KSA, so I really don't have an opinion either way.  The orange and ping pong ball cutting sounds like a test for accuracy, since they are both very small targets.  Not sure what purpose the candle test would serve.  Or the paper test.  *shrug*


----------



## Carol (Jul 14, 2006)

Candle would also be a test of accuracy for a bokken...because bokkens can't cut anything.

Exactly right, the candle makes a scorch mark.  Too low, the candle gets kicked over.  Too high, no scorch, only a bit of smoke.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jul 14, 2006)

We were planning this pig roast, and someone at the dojo joked about cutting the pig with the Katana.  

I'd like to cut a pig.  It might help me judge the "feel" of cutting a person with bones and all.  But maybe not.

As far as watermelon, Ping Pong Balls, etc... I can think of better things to cut... but if its what you guys do in KMA, *shrug*
​


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 14, 2006)

http://www.turtlepress.com/Haedong_Kumdo_DVD_p/dvd-kca3.htm

For anyone unfamiliar with candle snuffing.  Theres a dash in this video.  It takes more than physical technique.  I can only do it when I'm not really trying.  I have to make myself physically know no difference between the candle/s the space between us and myself.  More later I'm at work. Ugh!


----------



## Don Roley (Jul 14, 2006)

soul_sword34 said:
			
		

> Like the title says.  Can anyone explain the benefits of such exercises.  Snuffing out candles with a bokken/gum.  Cutting an orange off of a tameshigiri stand.  Slicing a ping pong ball out of the air.  What is the benefit by cutting a long sheet of paper with Shinken?  I have my opinions and would like to hear yours.  Thanks.  Howard you may enter.  Cha Ryut!!



I have heard of the paper thing. The idea is to cut constantly without causing a tear all along the paper. People can always tear the thing- but to manage to keep your edge control all the way through and actually cut is the goal.

Don't know about the bokken and candles and the other suggestions so far sound pretty good.

Tossing a ping pong ball in the air and having someone hit it seems to be geared towards hitting a small, moving target. I have read Charles Daniel suggest using a bokken and soap bubbles for that reason.

But if you are going to do that for accuracy, I don't understand why you would need the oranges.


----------



## soul_sword34 (Jul 14, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have heard of the paper thing. The idea is to cut constantly without causing a tear all along the paper. People can always tear the thing- but to manage to keep your edge control all the way through and actually cut is the goal.
> 
> Don't know about the bokken and candles and the other suggestions so far sound pretty good.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry still at work gotta keep it short.  Try putting an orange on a stand and cut off just a portion of the top, then slice off a portion of the end of a kiwi.  Put two of them together so the kiwi rests on top of the orange.  Now see if you can cut the orange and kiwi in half without knocking them off using only two horizontal cuts one right and the other on the return, I've done it a few times but am no expert, it takes a lot of focus.:asian:  Ninja vanish****


----------



## howard (Jul 15, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Howard. I checked the Junkikwan video. I believe that is Grandmaster Lim who is discussed in this thread...


Charles, yes, that's him.




			
				Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> I haven't the foggiest idea why it was necessary to rename the art. Why is it called Kuhapdo? Why isn't it just the Korean organization affiliated with Komei Jyuku MJER? Could you enlighten me on that particular bit of oddness?


I'll try.

He didn't rename MJER.  He created a separate curriculum of forms based on his instruction from Sekiguchi and his research into Korean sword traditions.  We do practice some of the MJER kata, but we spend more time practicing Kuhapdo forms.

As somebody pointed out in the thread you linked to, GM Lim is open about his training under Sekiguchi.  He does not deny the link between Kuhapdo and Sekiguchi.  As you can see on the jungkikwan website, there are photos of the two of them together.

Hope this helps...


----------



## Ninjamom (Jul 16, 2006)

Been lurking here for a couple of months, and thought I'd comment on this one (maybe because I finally found a topic I actually know something about??!?!)

Candle snuffing is an excellent exercise that even beginners (one month or more experience) may use to develop control of the end of their sword.  The proper motion required to snuff a candle includes speed, power, control of the exact location of the stopping point of the tip of the sword (centimeters directly over the wick), and most importantly, an abrupt stop of the sword's motion (i.e., no 'bounce').  This is one of several belt test requirements in haidong gumdo, where additional candles (requiring additional power and control) are added each test (so, one candle must be extinguished to achieve yellow belt, and six to achieve black).

For you Japanese sword pactitioners, candle snuffing requires development of _te no uchi_ (coordination of proper motion of both hands with the sword).

If you have never tried candle snuffing, begin by placing a small feather on the floor (or tiny shreds of paper in a pile), and practice the cutting motion until you can reliably, repeatedly make the feather (or paper pieces) 'dance'.  Candle snuffing is a good exercise for beginners through intermediate students, and is done with a wooden sword (bokken or mok gum).

Paper Cutting is another training technique appropriate for beginning to advanced students.  I try to make sure students have opportunity to try at white belt, although I don't expect them to do well consistently until yellow belt.  

Paper cutting is begun using a wooden sword - the tip (kissaki in Japanese arts?) is the part that actually does the cutting.  Again, the technique requires proper control of the blade and proper cutting motion.  In this exercise, the blade must be alligned correctly throughout the cutting motion, in order to cut rather than rip or merely hit the paper.  Beginners are required to cut simple newspaper (cheap, available, easy to see the results), and I insist that students cut alongside (never on) an existing crease.  Good cuts are clean enough to be able to see and address problems that need minor adjustments, such as when downward cuts tend to pull to the right or left, or when horizontal cuts do not stay horizontal).  Newspaper is sufficient for practicing downward center cuts (from a stationary position, with the paper held at arms length by another student) and for horizontal cuts (hung 'clothesline' fashion over a string).

For more advanced paper cutting, I use longer paper.  Butcher block, long rolls of craft paper, left-over wrapping paper rolls, etc., all work well.  These rolls allow the use of longer paper sections, so holders may position the paper for diagonal cutting practice while maintaining a safe distance from the wooden sword and sword wielder.  Thus, intermediate students may adjust/improve technique for diagonal cutting, while still using the wooden sword.

Live-blade paper cutting helps with blade allignment and control of distance, but requires additional safety precautions.  Personally, I don't like to start anyone with live-blade paper cutting until about brown belt.

Fruit Cutting, in every case I've seen, is more for demonstration and 'Wow' factor than for actuall swordsmanship.  It does help with eye-hand coordination, control of the blade, and demonstration of proper blade allignment in the cutting motion.  I have heard of using dough balls and playdough as well, as these are less damaging to the blade.  I have also heard (have not tried it personally) of using the wooden sword on playdough.  I have allowed my beginning students to practice diagonal cuts with wooden swords on cucumbers and celery - it is crisp enough to show if a cut is alligned correctly by how the object breaks, and it's just plain fun for them to get to hit something.

Korean martial arts tend to have 'poom' grades (black belt 'junior' grades for younger-aged students).  The 'poom' grades and ranks do not directly transfer when the student achieves a specifc age, but require additional testing and demonstration of maturity and proficiency.  In these cases, I have seen haidong gumdo schools substitute tennis ball or ping pong ball hitting for bamboo cutting requirements.  Rather than have an underaged student demonstrate proficiency by cutting with a live blade against hard targets, the student demonstrates control and precision against a stationary (suspended on a string) or a moving (thrown) target with the wooden sword.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Swordlady (Jul 17, 2006)

Thanks for the thorough explanations, Ninjamom.    I know nothing about the Korean sword arts, and most of the regulars on this forum study a JSA (including myself).

I also noticed this is your first post.  Welcome to MT, and to the Sword Arts forum.  :wavey:  How about posting an introduction in the Meet and Greet forum, so we can learn a little more about you?  I'm guessing that you are a haidong gomdo instructor?


----------



## Charles Mahan (Jul 17, 2006)

howard said:
			
		

> He didn't rename MJER. He created a separate curriculum of forms based on his instruction from Sekiguchi and his research into Korean sword traditions. We do practice some of the MJER kata, but we spend more time practicing Kuhapdo forms.
> 
> As somebody pointed out in the thread you linked to, GM Lim is open about his training under Sekiguchi. He does not deny the link between Kuhapdo and Sekiguchi. As you can see on the jungkikwan website, there are photos of the two of them together.
> 
> Hope this helps...


 
Something still doesn't add up to me though.  Why did he make MJER part of his Kuhapdo?  Why not just do both things as seperate styles?  Was there seomthing missing in the Kuhapdo?  Some whole in the training curriculum which the MJER stuff filled?  My instructor has been doing Uechi Ryu Karate a good bit longer than he's been doing MJER.  When he returned to the states after spending 10 years learning MJER in Chiba, he didn't try to incorporate his MJER into his Uechi Ryu, or vice versa.  He teaches both completely seperately.  It just strikes me as rather odd to try to incorporate another style into an existing one.


----------



## howard (Jul 17, 2006)

Charles Mahan said:
			
		

> Something still doesn't add up to me though. Why did he make MJER part of his Kuhapdo? Why not just do both things as seperate styles?... It just strikes me as rather odd to try to incorporate another style into an existing one.


Hi Charles,

Sorry if I wasn't clear... actually, he didn't make MJER part of Kuhapdo.  We do the form sets from each art separately.

Of course, this in itself raises questions.  For example, if you purchase the "Kuhapdo" video from the Jungkikwan website, you get a video of MJER forms.  Cut for cut, movement for movement.  It would seem reasonable to see acknowledgement of that.  Perhaps it's there in Korean, I'm not sure.  Here I agree with you.

Another question that comes to my mind is: in Kuhapdo, is it possible to differentiate between MJER-inspired elements and those elements inspired by Korean sword tradition?  Sorry, I don't have the answer... I've never had an in-depth discussion of that with any of the Koreans.

I suppose one could maintain that a bit more elaboration about the exact nature of the source material for Kuhapdo is justified.  But, I don't believe there is any intent on GM Lim's part to mislead anybody.  As I've noted, it's clear for all to see on the Jungkikwan website that his sword teacher is Sekiguchi.

Hope this helps... sorry I can't offer more definitive information.


----------



## Ninjamom (Jul 17, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> I also noticed this is your first post. Welcome to MT, and to the Sword Arts forum. :wavey: How about posting an introduction in the Meet and Greet forum, so we can learn a little more about you?


Thanks for the welcome, and I guess I'll take your advice and post the Intro when I get a little more time this evening.  



> I'm guessing that you are a haidong gomdo instructor?


Actually, I'm more of a beginning Junior Deputy Assistant Under-Instructor (the master instructor lets me teach the beginning students, although I've been working with the higher belts in a pinch lately.)  I don't think there's anything that I do that I enjoy more than teaching others.


----------

