# Should Kenpoka be Breaking Boards?



## Thesemindz (Jun 3, 2011)

I've been reading through the TKD forums and they discuss board breaking a lot. I've rarely ever practiced board breaking. Once at a Superfoot Wallace seminar with re-breakable boards, and way way back as a kid when I practiced TKD myself. So I only have limited knowledge of the practice and I was curious what you guys thought.

At our school, we do a ton karate a ton of different ways. But we don't practice with boards, except occasionally as weapons. Not usually breaking. We actually do have a few re-breakable boards that our head instructor bought a while back, and we do play with them occasionally, but it's never a serious part of our method. It's more like screwing around before and after class every once in a while, and usually it's the younger students who find them in the equipment room and get all excited. Then we show them how it works, and that's fun for a day, and then they go back in the closet. Personally, I've always preferred body work to anything else. The music is made for the instrument. But my students spend a lot of time in class doing air, pad, mitt, shield, and bag work too. Just not boards.

It's just not the way I was brought up. I think there was always a little bit of a dismissive attitude towards the practice. Boards don't hit back, never been mugged by a board, that sort of thing. But I'm reading these TKD forums, and I'm intrigued by some of what I'm seeing.

Generally, I take TKD with a grain of salt. It's not that there aren't some really amazing TKD players out there, and some really great schools. I did TKD myself, and I have a huge amount of respect for the instructors I worked with. But most of the TKD schools I've personally been in are the kind where you see mom and dad and their six year old chasing each other around with foam paddles. That's ok. I'm glad those people have something wholesome to do together. It's just not the kind of karate I'm in to. I know there are also hard fighting TKD schools, they're just rarer.

But I see these same moms and dads talking about how when they tested with their ten year old last week they had to break a stack of wooden boards to get their next belt. Now that makes me look at these guys in a whole new light. My students fight all the time, and they're tough, and we do occasionally injure each other in our training, but we don't spend significant amounts of time practicing breaking wooden boards with our basics. Maybe we should? I don't know, but it's got me wondering.

There's another thread over there where they're discussing the importance of basics and what is perceived by some to be a general lessening on the emphasis placed on proper basics. This is an old kenpo argument. Are we practicing basics enough? Is it enough to only practice them in our techniques? We've talked about that for years. Personally, I'm a big believer in practicing your basics. Stances, strikes, grapples. Drill baby drill. You can't practice your basics enough. You're only as good as your basics. I tell my students every class.

But here's a whole other way to practice basics, board breaking, that I'm not using. So I'm curious. Do any of you guys break boards? Do you think we should be? What's your take on board breaking in general? Pro's? Con's? Does anybody know if Mr. Parker had a take on board breaking? I honestly can't remember. If you are, why? If you aren't, why not?

I'm thinking about it. At least for advanced students. Might be a neat way to amp up my brown belts. What do you guys think?


-Rob


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## Flying Crane (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't personally see much reason for anyone, from any system, to do it.

Once in a while, to see what you can do?  sure, it can be kinda fun.  But on a regular basis, I just don't feel it has a lot of value, esp. if you are doing stuff like working on the heavy bag on a regular basis.

that's my opinion on it.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 3, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't personally see much reason for anyone, from any system, to do it.
> 
> Once in a while, to see what you can do?  sure, it can be kinda fun.  But on a regular basis, I just don't feel it has a lot of value, esp. if you are doing stuff like working on the heavy bag on a regular basis.
> 
> that's my opinion on it.



That's always been my take on it. Kind of a fun activity occasionally, but otherwise not serious karate. But maybe if we were breaking boards in every class we'd be developing some pretty awesome kicks and punches. 

Then again, that might get expensive pretty fast.


-Rob


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## Flying Crane (Jun 3, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> That's always been my take on it. Kind of a fun activity occasionally, but otherwise not serious karate. But maybe if we were breaking boards in every class we'd be developing some pretty awesome kicks and punches.


 
er, I dunno.  I think the heavy bag will do it better in the long run.



> Then again, that might get expensive pretty fast.
> 
> 
> -Rob


 
yup, it's just kindling for the fireplace.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 3, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> yup, it's just kindling for the fireplace.



But maybe you can sell the kindling. Make it up on the back end.


-Rob


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## Carol (Jun 3, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> er, I dunno.  I think the heavy bag will do it better in the long run.



Or better still, a 100 or 200 pound muay thai bag.   You know...just in case you ever have to kick a 200 pound something-or-other in real life


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## Kemposhot (Jun 3, 2011)

I've never practiced this in class.  Personally have very little interest in doing it, although I will admit I think it looks pretty cool to watch.


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## LawDog (Jun 5, 2011)

Breaking boards has no technique value however it does help develope a much needed mindset. If one is really intent on training for self defense or fighting purposes you have to accept the fact that your body has many hard bones in it. After breaking one or multi boards you will develope a mindset that if you hit a boney area you will probably not destroy your hand and there is a possiblity that you could break the bone that you have struck.
Many will say that they will only strike to the soft area or into pressure point areas, on a static person this is easy to. However, when the opponet is moving and striking back there is a high likely hood that you will miss and hit into one of the bone areas.
I have been told by many that they will not do this kind of training for many reason and that they would rather take a chance on breaking their hand during a fight. I have broken a hand, knuckles and fingers during minor scuffles and I can say that you better be real tuff because with only one hand your going to get a minor beating.
Bottom line is I think that if you are training in an impact type of system then you should. The choice is yours so enjoy your training.
:ultracool


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 5, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't personally see much reason for anyone, from any system, to do it.
> 
> Once in a while, to see what you can do?  sure, it can be kinda fun.  But on a regular basis, I just don't feel it has a lot of value, esp. if you are doing stuff like working on the heavy bag on a regular basis.
> 
> that's my opinion on it.


Mr. Parker had the two percent rule. Board breaking is about 2% of your art and should be practiced 2% of the time; so, your opinion pretty much matches what Mr. Parker said.
Sean


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## Inkspill (Jun 5, 2011)

Board breaking is a good way to remove doubt, and to develop regulation of power, how hard do you need to hit? what does that feel like? hitting hard enough to break one board vs 2, 3, 4 boards. 

If you can break one board with your straight heel palm, you can break a nose with it. It teaches a lot of things that can be developed elsewhere, but there is something to feel breaking a board without injuring yourself, its cool but for me more importantly it showed me the potential in myself, it removed doubt. I've only broken 2 boards glued together, but I did it with what I felt was my weakest strike, made it strong enough to break through the boards, and the feeling was great, I hit through the target, correct striking surface, etc, no injury. I look at boards (and people) in a different light after that. I felt how damaging I could be. we could seriously maim or kill somebody here, that's very serious. These natural weapons ARE weapons. (At least they are becoming so with this art, not so much so in some previous stuff I studied)


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## knuckleheader (Jun 5, 2011)

It has a place in practice. For the novice, it's a way to develope focus while over coming doubt.

I wish schools would prepare the kids better, they are the ones who suffer from missed breaking attempts. Not a good way to instill confidence.
I don't think it's wise to try it without propper makiwara trainig. Which I've seen done too many times. 

A traditional way for exponents to do demonstrations and awe the crowd.


If you want to break boards or bricks, whatever. Prepare before _hand_. Unintended punn


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## punisher73 (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't think kids should be breaking boards with hand techniques anyways. Their bones are still forming and the conditioning to go through a couple doesn't seem like a good idea when they aren't fully formed yet.

As to board breaking. It should be a byproduct and not a goal. Back when my instructors used to do board breaking, they would either have the board hanging by a rope and you had to break the board in place, or toss the board in front of you from the side and you punched it to work on timing as well. If you pushed with your strike the board would just fly away. This insured good technique, the board breaking was just visual feedback for what you wanted to accomplish.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 6, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I don't think kids should be breaking boards with hand techniques anyways. Their bones are still forming and the conditioning to go through a couple doesn't seem like a good idea when they aren't fully formed yet.
> 
> As to board breaking. It should be a byproduct and not a goal. Back when my instructors used to do board breaking, they would either have the board hanging by a rope and you had to break the board in place, or toss the board in front of you from the side and you punched it to work on timing as well. If you pushed with your strike the board would just fly away. This insured good technique, the board breaking was just visual feedback for what you wanted to accomplish.



I think that's a really good point about kids breaking boards. I don't even like to practice intense grappling techniques with kids because I don't want it to impact negatively on their developing joints and muscles. Ironically, the only time I've ever actually practiced this in a dojo was when I was a kid doing TKD. Although I have used my kicks and punches to break down some wooden furniture and construction debris for disposal.

I think board breaking could be cool as part of a ritual, maybe after a big test or at a seminar or during a special class. But as part of the regular training I think it would be expensive, messy, and less useful than bag and body work.

So now I'm considering having my students break inch thick sheets of glass. That way the debris will all evaporate and I won't have to worry about the investment or the mess!

That's a joke.


-Rob


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## OKenpo942 (Jun 6, 2011)

To each their own, but I don't think it has much place in a Kenpo test. 

If you want to do it, then do it if that's your thing. It is not mine, however, and I don't have much use for it.

James


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## Nomad (Jun 6, 2011)

We'll do occasional seminars where we teach how to break boards or brick safely, and it can be a great confidence booster for all the reasons mentioned.  Besides, it's also _fun_.

Other than that, we break maybe a couple of times a year for demonstrations.  Definitely not often, or in regular class time, and it's strictly a voluntary thing.  Some of our students never break, others get a pretty big rush from it and try more difficult and complicated breaks as they progress.

As to the "Boards don't hit back" quote that everyone spouts... technically, especially if you've got good holders and the board(s) don't break, Newton's laws says that they kind of do hit back.   The force of the hit goes right back into the hand (or foot), and that can hurt.  In contrast, a successful break is usually painless.


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## punisher73 (Jun 7, 2011)

Nomad said:


> As to the "Boards don't hit back" quote that everyone spouts... technically, especially if you've got good holders and the board(s) don't break, Newton's laws says that they kind of do hit back. The force of the hit goes right back into the hand (or foot), and that can hurt. In contrast, a successful break is usually painless.


 
I hate that quote.  It is so pointless.  Boards don't hit back, well either do pads or heavy bags, but we still use those as regular training aids.  If you don't want to break boards fine, but dont' make a stupid argument why you don't use them.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 7, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I hate that quote.  It is so pointless.  Boards don't hit back, well either do pads or heavy bags, but we still use those as regular training aids.  If you don't want to break boards fine, but dont' make a stupid argument why you don't use them.



I suppose if a person only ever trained with a resisting opponent, never in the air or with any kind of training aid, then that would be a valid argument. But no one I've ever known to make that argument fit those criteria.

Where would you even buy the boards to break? What kind of wood do you use? Balsa? Bamboo? Pine? I guess if I really want to know I should ask the TKDers. I bet there's a whole industry devoted to providing these boards to TKD schools.


-Rob


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## punisher73 (Jun 8, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> I suppose if a person only ever trained with a resisting opponent, never in the air or with any kind of training aid, then that would be a valid argument. But no one I've ever known to make that argument fit those criteria.
> 
> Where would you even buy the boards to break? What kind of wood do you use? Balsa? Bamboo? Pine? I guess if I really want to know I should ask the TKDers. I bet there's a whole industry devoted to providing these boards to TKD schools.
> 
> ...


 
Most use 1 inch pine boards.  Just go to your local home improvement store and buy a long board that meets your requirements and cut it into smaller pieces.  I think most usually cut them around a 12 x 12 inch square or thereabouts.


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## Wo Fat (Jun 8, 2011)

While I too subscribe to the "Boards don't hit back" theory, I have to disagree that it's the same as heavy bag or focus mitt training.  The objective of board breaking is as the term says ... to break a board.  To the contrary, the objective is not to punch a hole through a heavy bag.  There's no false sense of victory seeing the sand or foam from a heavy bag spill onto the floor.  But--and this is just one guy's opinion--there is a false sense of victory in breaking boards, especially boards that break on-demand.  That's perfectly fine for children.  But I'm not so sure that anyone over the age of 13 ought to rely on board breaking in their training.

Again, no offense.  Just one guy's opinion.


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## cdunn (Jun 8, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Most use 1 inch pine boards. Just go to your local home improvement store and buy a long board that meets your requirements and cut it into smaller pieces. I think most usually cut them around a 12 x 12 inch square or thereabouts.


 
Just make sure the boards are reasonably well cured, and you're good to go. While some people bake them out to make easy-break show pieces of boards, which they shouldn't be, it is possible to go too far in the other direction. We hit up the local lumber mill to stock up for a tournament one year, and got boards that were so green they were still oozing sap. It was... not pretty. We had people leaving knuckle prints almost a quarter inch deep in the boards without breaking them, and a couple broken toes.


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## punisher73 (Jun 8, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> While I too subscribe to the "Boards don't hit back" theory, I have to disagree that it's the same as heavy bag or focus mitt training. The objective of board breaking is as the term says ... to break a board. To the contrary, the objective is not to punch a hole through a heavy bag. There's no false sense of victory seeing the sand or foam from a heavy bag spill onto the floor. But--and this is just one guy's opinion--there is a false sense of victory in breaking boards, especially boards that break on-demand. That's perfectly fine for children. But I'm not so sure that anyone over the age of 13 ought to rely on board breaking in their training.
> 
> Again, no offense. Just one guy's opinion.


 
No offense taken.  I agree with much of what you have said.  You qualified "why" you don't rely on board breaking and had a sound argument.  You didn't just say "boards don't hit back" and stop it at that to dismiss it.  You showed the limits of the training (which I agree with).

Reading previous posts, you will see that I am against children punching boards anyways since their hands are not fully formed.  I also agree that it is an improper use of the board breaking if they are baked or made to break easy for show.  That again defeats the purpose.  Board breaking, is a tool that can be used and has a time or place in it.  We wouldn't tell someone because they can dance around a heavy bag that they can beat anybody.  The heavy bag has a specific purpose and as long as that is defined and stuck to, it is a good training aid.  Just like board breaking CAN be, but again it is usually exagerated to what it's purpose is.


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## KELLYG (Jun 8, 2011)

I am a TKD'er.  We usually break boards during belt testing and use the breakable boards, occasionally, during class. The techniques that are done a techniques that are taught from belt level to belt level.   Most of them are just foot techniques until you reach a higher gup level.  After that then there are hand techniques  and foot techniques. At black the breaking scenario is determined by the tester.  

I know, I know boards do not hit back.  What they do do for you is stress the importance of good technique and there is a confidence builder in there as well. It can be a strong visual for parents, to see how they have progressed in their training.   Smaller students use smaller boards, adults can use as many stacked together as they wish.   You can also break concrete a paver if you want to.

I always liked breaking.   I was it signified the end of testing.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 8, 2011)

if you cant break boards? your technique is crap

now, do you NEED to do breaks? no

BUT

there isnt really anything else that proves to your mind that your stuff works and hitting something hard wont kill ya


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## tinker1 (Jun 9, 2011)

TKD guy here.  2nd dan Kenpo also.. but my main focus is TKD.

Personally I think breaking boards is pretty much nonsense.  Good for demonstrations, good for self esteem especially with youngsters.  

The boards themselves can be problematic.  They can be wet, close grained, or just hard to break... then you can get soft dry ones the break pretty much with mildly harsh language.  The holders are another variable.. if they aren't held rigidly they can be really hard to break.  Try this.. lay a board down on a soft mattress, then try and break it.

Breaking bricks can actually be easier than breaking boards.

More often than not, students don't go through proper hand conditioning before they are asked to break.  This can lead to injury.

In training you can get at least as much value (more probably) from working on a forging post, hitting a heavy bag, or a body shield.  All those modalities will teach proper bone alignment and increase bone density - the later is a good thing for us older folks (particularly women).


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## MarkC (Jun 9, 2011)

I never broke many boards over the past 31 years of training. A few years back I was training with a small group in another style and one night they were breaking. I sort of think as a test to get an idea of my focus or something,they asked me to break first. So I reverse punched the board and broke it, The next one I used a heel palm, then a ridgehand, then an elbow, etc. Hadn't hit boards since about 1987 or so, but still no big deal. I don't enjoy it, but it's not very difficult. I'm also not sure it's really a test of much. You can take someone with no training and have them doing it fairly quickly if they want to.


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## Wo Fat (Jun 10, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> if you cant break boards? your technique is crap
> 
> now, do you NEED to do breaks? no
> 
> ...



The proof is in defending yourself against an attacker (or opponent) who's bigger, stronger and throws more than a step-in punch at you.

If you can manage to get your roundhouse or axe kick somewhere near his head, and he _doesn't_ drop like sack of laundry ...

then it's time to train for something other than board-breaking.


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## Doc (Jun 14, 2011)

Mr. Parker didn't believe in it at all. I only saw him do it once for a video in 84. He came in and his knuckles were bruised. I asked, "What happened?" He said, "Doing some dumb s**t for a video shoot." He did double outward back fists to 4, 1 inch pine boards, 2 on each side. He felt you could prepare yourself in a reasonable manner without pounding something harder than you hand. The Chinese method of sand comes to mind, if you must, with a dash of ditda.


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## Manny (Jun 20, 2011)

I'¡ve nbever seen board breaking in my pass for kenpo karate but I think breaking boards is a good thing. I am a TKDoing with some kenpo training in my tkd dojang we only do baord breaking once before kups test and during the kup test, the only ones who can perform board breaking are red belt and above. The small kids break very thin boards and the young and adult break one inch thick boards that can be staked if wanted.

Board breaking is a good tool because only with proper techinike and timing one person can break board (s), and this gives some kind of confidence with the kids they think that if they can break a thick board then their tech and power is good enough.

Board breakin is something we did one or twice every kup examination, we don't do it on a weekly or montly basis, board breacking is just a tool.

Manny


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## punisher73 (Jun 21, 2011)

Ok, I have a confession to make.  I have never trained to break boards, but know how it is done etc.

This past weekend we had a bunch of the neighbor kids over to our house to celebrate their last day of school.  We were making smores and I was in charge of the fire.  While adding stuff to the fire, I saw that we had a 2x12 that was about 12 inches in length from some left over projects we had.  Thinking about this thread, I held the board in one hand and then "chopped" it in half.  My wife freaked when she saw me do it, so I got alot of points on the CDI factor (Chicks dig it).

Nice knowing I could do it, but not something I would keep doing.


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## Manny (Jun 22, 2011)

Breaking boards, bricks ane even stones and bottles is nice to watch but I must say that in some cases is worthless. I hurt one of my principal nuckles of my right hand, this is my dominant hand and I use to break two one inch thick pine boards, now everitime I do this my knucles swell.

I don't advise try to be to macho man in the class and try to break hard objects with hands or even feet, our hands are presicion made tools.

As somebody wrote here before, it's better to punch/kick the heavy bag to gain power in our techs and to hardened our hands.

Yeas breacking hard objetc is nice but is not mandatory.

I would rather see the kids breaking not to thick pine boards and see their smile afther that that see how a boy miserably fails to break a thick board because he feel is so tough to do it or because his sensei wanted him to do it and even suffer an injure that needs time to heal.

Manny


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