# Gun martial art?



## Skankatron Ltd (Feb 19, 2005)

Alrigt, I'll cut to the chase, has anybody seen equilibrium? Is there anything like that? For those of you who didn't seen it, there is something called "gun kata" which is basically a martial art involving guns. All of the positions of the gun kata are theoretically the safest (smallest statistical chance of being hit) and there is an emphasis on fighting multiple targets positioned in multiple directions at relatively close range. Anyone ever heard of anything like this? Just wondering if it's 100% bs, only mostly bs, or somewhat possible.
 Have at it!


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## Cruentus (Feb 20, 2005)

I swear this came up before...

I have never seen the movie, but I will say that gunfighting is very much a "martial art."

In my instructors gild, we incorporate gunfighting as part of a complete close quarter defense system. And, for the record, I have another instructor who comes in and helps us with the training who is certified from Hawking College. 

There are many viable methods out there, but what we ascribe too is basically the Fairborn/Applegate method evolved, called target focused shooting. We train to be able to shoot with a pistol one handed or two, while moving, and to be able to hit a moving target from anywhere 360 degrees from our vantage point, within a 5" grouping under 30 feet, without sites. We also train to "not get hit." Sited fire at longer ranges, as well as long gun is part of the total picture once basics are developed.

I have no idea what was in this movie, but does this sound anything like it? Regardless, what I describes is very "real" as this is something we do as part of our regular training regimine...

Paul


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## Tgace (Feb 20, 2005)

http://www.jibc.bc.ca/Libraryfiles/archive/PDFDownloads/Bibliographies/Shooting%20Techniques%20-%



> Weaponcraft Kata: Dryfire Training System: The Defensive Handgun
> (video, 30 minutes)
> (RESTRICTED TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES)
> Features seventeen dryfire exercises to keep shooting skills sharp, even without extensive range practice. Drills for basic, advanced and master-level skills. Includes practice tactical reloading, flashlight holds, stoppage clearing, backup gun, strong- and off-hand shooting. (Keller and Associates) (HV 8080 S5 D443 1990)


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## KenpoTex (Feb 20, 2005)

There is definitely both science and art involved in being a proficient "shooter."  IMO the stuff in Equillibrium is pretty much BS as it relates to viable technique.  It is a cool movie though, very entertaining fight scenes.


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## Skankatron Ltd (Feb 20, 2005)

Yes, that sounds somewhat like the gun kata I'm thinking of. Of course I don't expect it to be quite is cool, but such is the reality of effective martial arts.


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## Jerry (Feb 22, 2005)

Are there martial arts (as opposed to individual schools) known for teaching offensive gun work as part of the cirriculum?

The only one that comes to my mind as having videos on offensive firearms work is Vladimir and Michael's Systema. I would suspect other police / millitary arts (such as Krav) to have this as well, though I've not personally seen it.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 23, 2005)

I heard someone say (maybe on this forum somewhere) that the school where he studied (either Kenpo or Kajukenbo I think) taught the use of a handgun due to the fact that they required their black-belts to have a certain level of proficiency with firearms in addition to their empty hand skills.  To me this sounds like a great idea if you have someone that's qualified to provide the instruction.


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## Clive (Feb 27, 2005)

Jerry said:
			
		

> The only one that comes to my mind as having videos on offensive firearms work is Vladimir and Michael's Systema.



This film shows ways of disarming an aggressor who has a gun as opposed to ways of using the gun itself, unless is what you are talking about. It shows ways to stop the attacker from drawing the weapon, close range work and working from a distance. Obviously working against a gun is one of the most difficult problems you are likely to encounter, a good thing to bear in mind is that the gun can can only cover one direction (wherever its pointed) and simply turning sideways to the gun makes you less of target, but I dont think there is a kata or anything in terms of using the gun itself. I would guess that this is similar to any other gun training that is conducted by the miltary or LEO's.


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## Jerry (Feb 28, 2005)

Vladimer also teaches drawing, stripping, chambering rounds against various body parts of you and your opponent; he teaches disarms with captures, he teaches fighting work that allows one person to over for another who is pulling a weapon, etc.

Heck, one of the bits in his general ad is on how to move when you have multiple armed friendlies in a line so that all three are capable of fireing without hitting one another (one crouches, one steps to the side).


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## FearlessFreep (Feb 28, 2005)

I saw Equilibrium and  thought  the gun-kata stuff visually looked really cool for a movie, but the more I thought about it the more it really made no sense


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## Clive (Feb 28, 2005)

For those interested in firearms, this film is from one of Vladimirs top students Sonny Puzikas who was actively served in the Soviet miltary.

AK - firearms 

 :ak47:


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

Well given by my defintion that:

A martial art is any system of fighting and/or defense under one category. In analogy, "sports", is the title of any athletic activity under one category. 

Given that the "martial" in martial arts reflects war/combat. And that war/combat changes per era, using changes of/or new weapons, then the gun, should not be treated no differently than sword training. Provided that safety is the first issue.


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## andy (Jul 30, 2005)

amazingly awesome  movie.


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## Don Roley (Aug 1, 2005)

Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan teaches shooting techniques and has a book out on it. His means of shooting is based on a strike called the Sanshin Tsuki and looks like the Applegate method. Masaad Ayoob in his book "Stressfire" has a technique he calls the Kenpo Punch technique.

In both cases, there is an attempt to merge firearm skills without bringing in a lot of new ways of doing things. This is important for not trying to do too many things in combat. Ellis Amdur wrote the following once,



> On a somatic level, too, the movements of atemi must be congruent with those of aikido waza. The The unintegrated addition of karate or boxing techniques is problematic, because one has to re-orginize on a neuro-muscular level the shifting from one martial system to another. This is dangerous because suki (vulnerable areas) occur in one's defenses at the moment of the shift, no matter how quick one is. As there is a spiritual orginization which is inherent in each martial art, it is also possible that you will distort yourself, entering a bastard spiritual state, neither karate or aikido. One cannot do justice to the moral requirements of either martial system.



So the idea of blending firearms with martial arts is a good one. But if the movements and philosophy behind them are too different, there may the problems that Amdur talks about above. I have seen this happen.


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