# Stength & Conditioning for Wing Chun



## redpanda (Mar 8, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

I am wondering what kind of focus everyone has for improving strength & fitness for Wing Chun (if any). Do people just rely on the practice or do you do anything separate. I know my school does some fitness as part of a class sometimes but mostly it is something people have to do on their own if you really want to make progress.

The reason I ask is I am a personal trainer and study sport science, and in my training of combat sports these are often very separate to help improve the body movements and ability on a physical level, rather than just a skill level. I have created a sport science based program for Wing Chun, but am just curious about whether this is something other practitioners focus on?


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## geezer (Mar 13, 2021)

redpanda said:


> I have created a sport science based program for Wing Chun, but am just curious about whether this is something other practitioners focus on?



Welcome to Martialtalk, Red. In my WC group, physical conditioning is not much addressed during class. Everyone knows it's necessary, but it's left mostly up to the individual, and class time is just used for Wing Chun. Personally, I'd be very interested in hearing more about what you've come up with.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2021)

The southern Tai Zu system uses this kind of strength and condition training.


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## redpanda (Mar 14, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The southern Tai Zu system uses this kind of strength and condition training.


Thanks, this is more bone and body conditioning rather than proper strength & conditioning. I’m talking about building cardio, muscle, power, speed & mobility to help improve WC skills though


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## jobo (Mar 14, 2021)

redpanda said:


> Thanks, this is more bone and body conditioning rather than proper strength & conditioning. I’m talking about building cardio, muscle, power, speed & mobility to help improve WC skills though


there a tendency towards people theorizing that development of skill makes up for a lack of strengh and conditioning in tma in general, which has a level of truth in it, if you dont push it to far and go up against someone who has significantly greater conditioning, as they tend to "fight" with in the dojo with people who have a similar philosophy this bubble dorsnt get popped enough  to motivate them to change


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## redpanda (Mar 14, 2021)

jobo said:


> there a tendency towards people theorizing that development of skill makes up for a lack of strengh and conditioning in tma in general, which has a level of truth in it, if you dont push it to far and go up against someone who has significantly greater conditioning, as they tend to "fight" with in the dojo with people who have a similar philosophy this bubble dorsnt get popped enough  to motivate them to change


Yes I agree 100%- technique is king but if you have two people equally skilled, then the fitter stronger person will win every time. Thats why I feel it is important to make sure you train your body as best you can to help give you skills a push


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2021)

I personally believe that strength training and cardio conditioning are an important part of martial training.  I don’t know if there are specific such exercises that will be especially beneficial for wing Chun folks vs. other folks.  I’m not a wing Chun guy.  But I put in some strength training and some running each week, in addition to training of my martial system. When weather permits, I like swimming too.  

If youve identified certain exercises that seem particularly appropriate for wing Chun, then go with that.  Otherwise, any such exercises are likely to be beneficial on some level.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2021)

redpanda said:


> Yes I agree 100%- technique is king but if you have two people equally skilled, then the fitter stronger person will win every time. Thats why I feel it is important to make sure you train your body as best you can to help give you skills a push


Old CMA saying said, "Your strength can defeat your opponent's 10 best techniques".

Technique is the 1st 50%. Ability is the 2nd 50%. You can learn technique in school. You have to develop ability all by yourself.

Different MA systems use different training equipment to develop "ability".


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## wckf92 (Mar 14, 2021)

redpanda said:


> I am wondering what kind of focus everyone has for improving strength & fitness for Wing Chun (if any).



I think strength and fitness is huge, and I've always made it a staple in my training. I could write volumes about it and conduct exhaustive seminars/workshops on this topic. The reason it isn't foremost on peoples minds is because it requires hard work.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The southern Tai Zu system uses this kind of strength and condition training.



Maybe you already know this, but Taizuquan is not a southern system, but yet another Shaolin Longfist school that branched out in all directions.

This is Taizuquan Nanquan, as opposed to Taizuquan Chanquan, and ironically the Northern style is centered around Canton in south China, whereas Nanquan Taizuquan is actually centered in Taiwan, even further south of Fujian province, the home of the "Southern" Shaolin way.

I've always found this very amusing.


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## hunschuld (Mar 14, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old CMA saying said, "Your strength can defeat your opponent's 10 best techniques".
> 
> Technique is the 1st 50%. Ability is the 2nd 50%. You can learn technique in school. You have to develop ability all by yourself.
> 
> Different MA systems use different training equipment to develop "ability".




Always impressed with Shuai Jiao training methods. 

I do have one complaint, Cant you ever find a fat Shuai Jiao guy in a video? You are making the rest of us look bad.


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## redpanda (Mar 15, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I personally believe that strength training and cardio conditioning are an important part of martial training.  I don’t know if there are specific such exercises that will be especially beneficial for wing Chun folks vs. other folks.  I’m not a wing Chun guy.  But I put in some strength training and some running each week, in addition to training of my martial system. When weather permits, I like swimming too.
> 
> If youve identified certain exercises that seem particularly appropriate for wing Chun, then go with that.  Otherwise, any such exercises are likely to be beneficial on some level.


Yes I train other arts as well which require a good degree of fitness so I like to have a wide variety of physical training options separately. The exercises I use therefore are general and good for building strength and fitness even for non-wing chun practitioners, but with a focus on WC specific muscle groups and attributes that will be particularly beneficial


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## redpanda (Mar 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old CMA saying said, "Your strength can defeat your opponent's 10 best techniques".
> 
> Technique is the 1st 50%. Ability is the 2nd 50%. You can learn technique in school. You have to develop ability all by yourself.
> 
> Different MA systems use different training equipment to develop "ability".


Love that I might have to steal that quote haha


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## jobo (Mar 16, 2021)

redpanda said:


> Yes I train other arts as well which require a good degree of fitness so I like to have a wide variety of physical training options separately. The exercises I use therefore are general and good for building strength and fitness even for non-wing chun practitioners, but with a focus on WC specific muscle groups and attributes that will be particularly beneficial


which exercises are particularly beneficial to wc specific muscle groups and which muscle groups and attributes are those ?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2021)

To complete your training, you will need

1. Partner drill to "develop" skill.
2. Sparring/wrestling to "test' skill.
3. Solo drill/form to "polish" skill.
4. Equipment/weight training to "enhance" skill.

It seems to me that 4 is not fully addressed in the WC system.

I assume that the "3 stars" training that you use your arm to strike on your opponent's arm (or on a tree trunk) should be WC people's basic training.






https://www.bilibili.com/video/av17898682/
​


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## yak sao (Mar 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To complete your training, you will need
> 
> 1. Partner drill to "develop" skill.
> 2. Sparring/wrestling to "test' skill.
> ...



The dummy and wall bag provide some of this, but yeah I agree, WC training is not enough for conditioning and needs to be supplemented

Also, while not the goal, one of the by products of dummy training is forearm conditioning.


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## redpanda (Mar 16, 2021)

jobo said:


> which exercises are particularly beneficial to wc specific muscle groups and which muscle groups and attributes are those ?


Well I like to focus on joint mobility particularly working thoracic mobility and shoulder to help increase the freedom of movement throughout the body to allow energy transfer more easily. Muscle wise its good to focus on the legs, particularly the calves quads and adductors but general leg strength should be a big focus. Core training with a focus on anti-flexion and anti-rotation so no power is leaked. Also lots of work to the serratus as that is what WC punches use that is a little different to most martial arts. Also a focus on speed and power development with the muscles throughout the whole body.
Sorry for the long reply its something I can talk heaps about haha


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## yak sao (Mar 16, 2021)

redpanda said:


> Well I like to focus on joint mobility particularly working thoracic mobility and shoulder to help increase the freedom of movement throughout the body to allow energy transfer more easily. Muscle wise its good to focus on the legs, particularly the calves quads and adductors but general leg strength should be a big focus. Core training with a focus on anti-flexion and anti-rotation so no power is leaked. Also lots of work to the serratus as that is what WC punches use that is a little different to most martial arts. Also a focus on speed and power development with the muscles throughout the whole body.
> Sorry for the long reply its something I can talk heaps about haha



As a WT guy, I tend to do a lot of pullups.
Also, I think it's a good idea to not only work the muscles involved in WT/ WC training but to work the antagonist muscles that are generally not used to prevent muscle inbalance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2021)

redpanda said:


> Well I like to focus on joint mobility particularly working thoracic mobility and shoulder to help increase the freedom of movement throughout the body to allow energy transfer more easily.


You need to loose your 3 joints, shoulder joint, elbow joint, and wrist joint. There is an Zimen system training to do that.

1. Loose shoulder joint - Raise right hand next to your right ear, chop down to the left of your left knee.
2. Loose elbow joint - Move right hand from your left knee to in front of your chest.
3. Loose wrist joint - Move right hand from in front of your chest to your right side.
4. Send energy through all 3 joints - Move right hand above right ear, drop your hand straight down next to your right knee.
Repeat 1 - 4 for the left arm.

One day when you move your arms from 1 - 4 so fast that you can't even see your own hands, you have developed some speed.


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## Eric_H (Mar 16, 2021)

> I am wondering what kind of focus everyone has for improving strength & fitness for Wing Chun (if any)



In our line we have two categories

* Gei Buhn Gung (Body exercise)
My school doesn't do this. I had to do it on my own, I've found squats, rows and pullups to be difference makers. Though the owner has revealed himself to be a less than stellar guy, Crossfit has worked wonders for me in the past. Still hate Oly lifting though.

* Gei Buhn Gung Git Faat Guy (Body exercise specific to the system)
Rounds of punching and footwork drills, attribute specific drilling sets, muscle/tendon/bone external chi kung sets etc. We tend to do these seasonally with whatever the current training focus is. 

YMMV, but I've found having a fit-ish body to be a way better life booster than being good at WC.


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## redpanda (Mar 16, 2021)

yak sao said:


> As a WT guy, I tend to do a lot of pullups.
> Also, I think it's a good idea to not only work the muscles involved in WT/ WC training but to work the antagonist muscles that are generally not used to prevent muscle inbalance.


Absolutely agree, was just talking about some examples. My philosophy is to constantly work on mobility and building the baseline of full body strength, before adding focus and power to the particular muscles that are useful to the art


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## redpanda (Mar 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You need to loose your 3 joints, shoulder joint, elbow joint, and wrist joint. There is an Zimen system training to do that.
> 
> 1. Loose shoulder joint - Raise right hand next to your right ear, chop down to the left of your left knee.
> 2. Loose elbow joint - Move right hand from your left knee to in front of your chest.
> ...


I like that havent seen that drill before


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## redpanda (Mar 16, 2021)

Eric_H said:


> In our line we have two categories
> 
> * Gei Buhn Gung (Body exercise)
> My school doesn't do this. I had to do it on my own, I've found squats, rows and pullups to be difference makers. Though the owner has revealed himself to be a less than stellar guy, Crossfit has worked wonders for me in the past. Still hate Oly lifting though.
> ...


Crossfit is great and so are those big compound exercises as they are both all about functional strength- which is great for martial arts as you are always in motion.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2021)

redpanda said:


> I like that havent seen that drill before


This is a similar drill. It has been changed and not the same as the original.

字门太极拳基本功2---抛三关_腾讯视频


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> ...I assume that the "3 stars" training that you use your arm to strike on your opponent's arm (or on a tree trunk) should be WC people's basic training.



...From a _traditional_ perspective ..*.No.* 

Sifu Leung cautioned us _not_ to do "Saam Sing". It is a drill imported from hard systems and not helpful for building good wing chun. The dummy will harden your arms, but you don't try to smack the dummy arms like that young lady in the video.


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## geezer (Mar 16, 2021)

yak sao said:


> As a WT guy, I tend to do a lot of pullups.



What do pull-ups do for Wing Chun? Not much except maybe give you a good jut sau? Regardless, I also used to do a ton of pull-ups and chin ups.

But I didn't do them to help my WC. I did them for the far more important reason of _showing off!  _

....Up through my mid-fifties I could do a crap-load of chin-ups and pull ups, even hanging by my fingertips ...and easily beat nearly all my younger students in a challenge. Now I'm much heavier and recovering from a rotator cuff injury (it's been taking over a year) so I can't do them any more.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2021)

geezer said:


> ...From a _traditional_ perspective ..*.No.*
> 
> Sifu Leung cautioned us _not_ to do "Saam Sing". It is a drill imported from hard systems and not helpful for building good wing chun. The dummy will harden your arms, but you don't try to smack the dummy arms like that young lady in the video.


Someone may say that until one day his arm has to meet with a MT guy's roundhouse kick.


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## redpanda (Mar 22, 2021)

geezer said:


> What do pull-ups do for Wing Chun? Not much except maybe give you a good jut sau? Regardless, I also used to do a ton of pull-ups and chin ups.
> 
> But I didn't do them to help my WC. I did them for the far more important reason of _showing off!  _
> 
> ....Up through my mid-fifties I could do a crap-load of chin-ups and pull ups, even hanging by my fingertips ...and easily beat nearly all my younger students in a challenge. Now I'm much heavier and recovering from a rotator cuff injury (it's been taking over a year) so I can't do them any more.


Pull ups are really good for building your lats which help add power to your strikes through sinking power. They are also good for strengthening the back which weirdly enough is good for your forward strikes as you can throw them more powerfully without ripping your arm off essentially haha. As an extra they also work your shoulder stability which helps with energy transfer through your joints.
Rotator cuff injuries suck- hope you heal up soon


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## ShortBridge (Mar 22, 2021)

Physical and mental conditioning is a big part of training in my club and those that I am affiliated with.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2021)

redpanda said:


> Well I like to focus on joint mobility particularly working thoracic mobility and shoulder to help increase the freedom of movement throughout the body to allow energy transfer more easily. Muscle wise its good to focus on the legs, particularly the calves quads and adductors but general leg strength should be a big focus. Core training with a focus on anti-flexion and anti-rotation so no power is leaked. Also lots of work to the serratus as that is what WC punches use that is a little different to most martial arts. Also a focus on speed and power development with the muscles throughout the whole body.
> Sorry for the long reply its something I can talk heaps about haha



I would just steal some boxing work outs.


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## wckf92 (Mar 22, 2021)

drop bear said:


> boxing work outs.



The old saying..."conditioning is King inside the ring"!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 22, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> The old saying..."conditioning is King inside the ring"!!!


When your shin bone meets on your opponent's shin bone, whoever can feel less pain will win.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 23, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I assume that the "3 stars" training that you use your arm to strike on your opponent's arm (or on a tree trunk) should be WC people's basic training.



The Da Saam Sing technique is super important for eliminating the ouch factor involved in crossing hands.

Sadly, this particularly type of training is rarely found in Wing Chun schools.  It's pretty common in Hung Ga and Choy Li Fut and related Five family styles, at least in my experience.

Asking any kung fu student if they know where their "3 stars" are, that's always worth a hoot.  I've heard some wild explanations, laugh, but it takes about 5 seconds to show them what it means.


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> The old saying..."conditioning is King inside the ring"!!!


conditioning is king where ever your fighting


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## jobo (Mar 24, 2021)

redpanda said:


> Absolutely agree, was just talking about some examples. My philosophy is to constantly work on mobility and building the baseline of full body strength, before adding focus and power to the particular muscles that are useful to the art


well that's a truism and has validity if your going to fight someone else who is using wing chun, it's less valid if your fighting someone with little or no formal training,  who uses his greater conditioning to grab you, run you backwards in to a wall at speed and then beat on you, at that point you may wish youd put more emphasis in development of non wing chun specific muscles

fighting is a full body exercise, you really need to be able to match your opponent,  at what ever he chooses do, which is very unlikely to be wing chun


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## jks9199 (Mar 25, 2021)

jobo said:


> well that's a truism and has validity if your going to fight someone else who is using wing chun, it's less valid if your fighting someone with little or no formal training,  who uses his greater conditioning to grab you, run you backwards in to a wall at speed and then beat on you, at that point you may wish youd put more emphasis in development of non wing chun specific muscles
> 
> fighting is a full body exercise, you really need to be able to match your opponent,  at what ever he chooses do, which is very unlikely to be wing chun


You've got a valid point that can be held against lots of schools and styles, namely that they train really well to defeat their classmates,  but your delivery could be misread...  Remember that MT doesn't endorse attacks on styles.


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## jobo (Mar 25, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> You've got a valid point that can be held against lots of schools and styles, namely that they train really well to defeat their classmates,  but your delivery could be misread...  Remember that MT doesn't endorse attacks on styles.


I'm not attacking anything at all, such as there was a degree of criticism,  it's against the training  regime he is describing, and that might only be the way he summarised it


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## geezer (Mar 26, 2021)

jobo said:


> ....fighting is a full body exercise, you really need to be able to match your opponent,  at what ever he chooses do, which is very unlikely to be wing chun



Even as a Wing Chun guy, I have to agree. And as JKS said, this isn't a "style specific" problem. It's a problem that's common in a lot of systems ....even some competitive ones. And now that I'm going on 66 and small of stature (5' 8" with a medium-small frame) I can't depend on physicality anymore for defense either. Good to be realistic about your limitations and not fall into the delusion that "pure technique" will win the day.


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## jobo (Mar 27, 2021)

geezer said:


> Even as a Wing Chun guy, I have to agree. And as JKS said, this isn't a "style specific" problem. It's a problem that's common in a lot of systems ....even some competitive ones. And now that I'm going on 66 and small of stature (5' 8" with a medium-small frame) I can't depend on physicality anymore for defense either. Good to be realistic about your limitations and not fall into the delusion that "pure technique" will win the day.


strengh, is one of the easier physical attributes to hang on to as you get older, by easy I mean not time consuming, it's never " easy" or it doesnt work, which is how peole allow their strengh to diminish in the first place


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## geezer (Mar 28, 2021)

jobo said:


> ... it's never " easy" or it doesnt work, which is how peole allow their strengh to diminish in the first place



That ....and injuries.  Training injuries can really set you back and after a certain age, depending on the individual, it's hard to recoup.


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## jobo (Mar 29, 2021)

geezer said:


> That ....and injuries.  Training injuries can really set you back and after a certain age, depending on the individual, it's hard to recoup.


I know that, I'm nearly as old as you, try not to get injuries, the problem is you end up in a race to the bottom if your not careful,  the less conditioning tra8n8hf you do, the more likely you are to get injuries and the longer it takes to recover,  so you do less,,,, repeat


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