# Question for Knowledgeable Karateka



## RHD (Apr 29, 2004)

Is there anyone who can describe some of the differences between various Ryu?  Specifically (if possible) Shorin Ryu, Shotokan, and Ishinn Ryu.  How are these schools expressed differently from eachother?  I have some Karate practitioner friends and they don't have enough exposure to other schools of Karate to compare with.

Thanks, 
Mike


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Apr 30, 2004)

The following is a vast oversimplification, but it will give you a place to start.  I'm sure other, more qualified persons can flesh this out, but here goes:
Shorin Ryu and Shotokan are very similar.  The most observable difference lies in their stances.  Shotokan stances tend to be deeper than those of Shorin Ryu (mostly), and where Shorin Ryu uses a cat stance, Shotokan tends to use a back stance.  Isshin Ryu was formed from both Shorin Ryu and Goju Ryu.  It favors much higher stances (almost like a boxer's stance) and its trademark is the use of the vertical fist (thumb up, knuckles aligned vertically) rather than the flat fist (thumb to the side and knuckles aligned horizontally).
Hope this helps.


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## RHD (Apr 30, 2004)

Randy Strausbaugh said:
			
		

> The following is a vast oversimplification, but it will give you a place to start.  I'm sure other, more qualified persons can flesh this out, but here goes:
> Shorin Ryu and Shotokan are very similar.  The most observable difference lies in their stances.  Shotokan stances tend to be deeper than those of Shorin Ryu (mostly), and where Shorin Ryu uses a cat stance, Shotokan tends to use a back stance.  Isshin Ryu was formed from both Shorin Ryu and Goju Ryu.  It favors much higher stances (almost like a boxer's stance) and its trademark is the use of the vertical fist (thumb up, knuckles aligned vertically) rather than the flat fist (thumb to the side and knuckles aligned horizontally).
> Hope this helps.



Thanks, it's a starting point.  Can anyone elaborate on technical differences or emphasis between these Ryu?
Mike


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## SenseiGR (Jun 16, 2004)

Shotokan is a very linear style.  They attack pretty much in a straight line.  Their motto is "one punch ends the fight".  Deep stances and the "lock-out" twisting punch you'll find in most styles.  It's the perfect example of a "hard" style.  Seems to favor the strong man.  Blocks are done with the edges of the arm bone.

I can't speak of shorinryu; never seen it, although it's the hard aspect of Isshinryu.  Goju-ryu supplied a softer aspect.  We in Isshinryu block with the muscle of the arms, so our pinkies would be closest to the opponent in both the chudan (middle) or jodan (upper) blocks.

Although technically we're considered a hard style and even a variation of Shorinryu, we're relaxed 98% of the time we're fighting.  I think we're really a "soft/hard" style.  We only stiffen on contact.  I know some masters whose fist only fully contracts on contact!

You'll see higher, more mobile stances and more circular moves than Shotokan.


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## glad2bhere (Jun 16, 2004)

Dear SenseiGR: 

Not to talk out of turn, but my research in the Korean arts has caused me to poke around in the very area you are discussing. Individuals of considerable standing in all of the various Karate and Okinawa-Te traiditons seem to agree that the division of these arts into Shorin, Shorei and Tomari-ryu styles is, at best contrived, and at worst incorrect. Funakoshi was roast a few times by various personalities from Okinawa who saw his writing in this regard as wholey misleading.  Personally, I would get a couple of back issues of DRAGON TIMES (Tsunami Publ.), especially in the last four copies before it became CLASSICAL FIGHTING ARTS and read some of the material on the heritage of the kata as well as the traditions espoused by Miyagi and Motobu.  May be an eye-opener for you. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## TimoS (Jun 16, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Individuals of considerable standing in all of the various Karate and Okinawa-Te traiditons seem to agree that the division of these arts into Shorin, Shorei and Tomari-ryu styles is, at best contrived, and at worst incorrect.



I think you're mixing couple of different classifications here. First classification is to categorize the styles or kata into Shorin and Shorei traditions and, as you said also, this has been shown to be incorrect. But you're mixing in there also Shuri, Naha and Tomari classifications, which, as I've understood it, is still more or less correct. There aren't any "pure" Tomari style karate ryu in existance anymore (if there ever really was), but Tomarite has been mixed into Shurite styles and I guess to some extent also to Nahate. Even the Shurite, Tomarite and Nahate classification is, according to my understanding, an oversimplification, but still better than Shorin and Shorei  :asian:


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## glad2bhere (Jun 16, 2004)

Thanks. Then I will need to bow to your understanding as these matters are more or less a product of research as much as anything else for me. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SenseiGR (Jun 16, 2004)

I'm not talking about heritage here, Bruce  - just application and emphasis.  Like I said, I've never seen a Shorinryu practitioner, but I studied Shotokan for a few months and Isshinryu for 30 years.  Don't need magazines; I've studied with several masters who know/made history, including Angi Uezu, son-in-law of the founder.


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## Ippon Ken (Jun 20, 2004)

Shuri Te:

Shorin Ryu: The modern precedent to most Okinawan, Japanese and Korean karate. Includes TKD, Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Kyokushinkai and Wado Ryu. It is the form of karate from the city of Shuri, which was the prefecture's capital and home of the King's palace. The Tode (old term for karate) of Shuri village is known as a natural style, with higher stances, good footwork, where mobility and speed are stressed. Approximately 80-90% of the techniques are hands and the rest feet. Grappling both standing and on the ground is also learned. 

Taught to Sokon Matsumura by "Tode" Sakugawa, this style of Okinawan MAs was used to defend three kings of Okinawa. The head palace guard and court instructor was Sokon Machimura (Matsumura). Matsumura studied in FooChow province, China and learned the methods of Chuan Fa known as Shaolin Chuan Shu and White Crane Chuan Fa from a Shifu called Iwah. Later, back on the Ryukyu Islands, he became a master instructor (Shihan) of the Jigen Ryu school of Kenjutsu, which was the fighting art of the Satsuma Samurai Clan who were the Japanese occupiers of Okinawa. He is still listed as such on the school's registry to this very day. He integrated his indigenous ti/te with these systems of fighting, and created a complete fighting and philosophical art that would be coined "Shorin Ryu" by a student of one of his senior students (Anko Itosu), Choshin Chibana. Shorin is the Japanese pronunciation of Shaolin, where Sokon learned for several years.

The modern variants of Shorin Ryu are Kobayashi (which has 2 main ryuha or subsystems- Shorinkan and Shidokan), Matsubayashi (which has 3 main organizations- T. Nagamine's being the best known), Shobayashi (which has many variants including Shorinji Ryu, Seibukan and Sukunaihayashi) and Matsumura Seito (which has 2 main branches- Orthodox Karatejutsu/KarateDo and Orthodox Kenpo). Among these, there are similarities and many differences. 

Kobayashi and Shobayashi are said to be similar, but Chotoku Kyan influenced Shobayashi and Chibana influenced Kobayashi. The former has many more Tomari Te techs (an antiquated fishing village style) and Kobayashi has a slight Shotokan feel to it as Itosu was both Funakoshi's and Chibana's sensei, and Kosaku MatsumOra was one of Kyan's sensei (along with Sokon Matsumura). Both Kobayashi and Shobayashi use lower stances than Matsubayashi and Matsumura Orthodox.

Matsubayashi uses short stances, straight vs. crescent/sweeping steps and is a fast and mobile style. It too was influenced by Kyan and Tomari Te as well as Goju Ryu and Motobu Choki's interpretation of Shuri Te. As a system it may look similar to the other Shorin Ryuha, but it is its own style nonetheless. It is a solid karate style as are most Okinawan Ryu. Named and formulated by Shoshin Nagamine, it is a good amalgamation of karate theories.

Matsumura Seito Karatejutsu (which we will concentrate on because the Kenpo variant is closely related to Okinawan Kempo/Kenpo), is closest to the original intent and form of ti known as Sui Di or Shuri te. This sytem is the forerunner of all the Shorin Ryuha. A family system passed from the "founder" of Shuri Te, Matsumura Sokon, to his Nephew, Nabe Matsumura and then to his grandson, Hohan Soken, it has tried to keep the original techniques and kata intact. Whereas in ryuha such as Shorinkan you will learn every kick possible (high and low) in this sytem kicks are unbalancing maneuvers, set-ups for throws, and for leg destruction as seen in Silat, Bando, Muay Boran or Muay Thai. Leg kicks and grappling are its treasures which most style of karate regardless of country of origin have forgotten. Still it's a system that relies heavily on "boxing' skills as hand techs, closed and open, and these are its bread-and-butter. "Change-body" and other effecient maneuvering techniques are emphasized ("get out of the way!"), and many evil throws, chokes and limb locks are used in conjunction with striking and kicking. Unlike modern Judo these throws are done so that ukemi or breakfall is almost impossible to perform. It is the way karate was before karate was mass marketed, changed and sold as a sport. It's karate as it was suppose to be preserved. It's highest level kata, which is actually a very basic and easy kata to perform, is called "Hakutsuru" or "White Crane". This is a kata named in honor Matsumura's Fukien Shaolin days.

Naha Te:

Goju Ryu: The principles of Goju Ryu are also to be found in most Japanese karate styles. Kyokushinkai, Shito Ryu, and Shotokan all use some Goju Ryu kata. Isshin Ryu uses their Sanchin and a couple of other kata from Goju, though all these styles have a strong leaning towards Shuri Te kata (Shorin).

Goju is system based on Tiger and Crane Chuan fa, that Kanryo Higashionna learned in FooChow province (China) in the early 1800's. He brought his system of Tode to the masses of Okinawa after combining Okinawan Ti with Chuan Fa. It is said that his main instructors were Wai Shinxiang and Ru Ru Ko, both well known Chinese MAs shifu (teachers). Replete with many in-close fighting methods and chin-na (chinese grappling), it is a deeper stanced and more rooted system that relies more on strength and conditioning than its Shuri te counterpart, Shorin Ryu. The main exponent of this style on Okinawa was Higashionna's main disciple, Miyagi Chojun. A man of great strength and fighting ability, he is said to be the first Okinawan karate-ka to push for sparring to be included in Goju Ryu's practice and one of the first along with Itosu of Shuri Te, to push for a less "barbaric" and standardized format that could be used as compulsory PE practice in the Japanese and Okinawan school systems. 

The forms are done slowly, with purpose and the inherent qigong (ki training) of the kata is quite evident. Sanchin kata, is done with a forced exhalation of air and tensing of the bodies muscles, especially the areas around the tanden and thoat. This is said to create a shield of muscle over vital areas and is used to increase strength thorugh isometric contraction. Some Okinawan Shinshii (sensei) claim that it is detrimental to the very young and very old and that is the reason many NahaTe practitoners live much shorter lives on the average than say their Shuri Te-ka and other fellow Okinawans. Some modern physicians agree, but what do MDs know about the body, right ? This is hotly debated even today. Regardless, it is a very strong style of karate, with a very external chinese feel to it.

The ryuha are many and there are also many non-Okinawan systems with Goju in their name like Japanese Goju Ryu (Nissei Goju), Chinese Goju and American Goju Ryu. The Okinawan ryuha include the Meibukan, Jundokan and my personal favorite Higaonna Goju Ryu founded by Morio Higaonna, who learned from the main student of Chojun Miyagi, Ankichi Miyagi. Morio Higaonna is the man that Don Draeger said was the most feared, real karate fighter of their era (50s-70s), and his knowledge of bunkai and old style tode is remarkable. I haven't been impressed by the other ryuha, Meibukan in particular, which uses humiliation and hard sparring to keep the juniors in check. At least this is how it was done on Okinawa in the 80s and 90s.

Uechi Ryu: This style is the most "Chinese" of the three. It relies heavily on Tiger/Crane/Dragon Chuan Fa, and resembles FooChow (Fujian) White Crane the closest (along with Matsumura Seito). Their Sanchin is faster and lighter and the breathing is not a long retracted ibuki like Goju, but more of a "hisss", like air escaping a tire rapidly. Their strikes in Sanchin are open hand, and body conditioning from head to toe is emphasized. A good Uechi ryu yudansha (BB) can break 2 inch boards with his toe kick and kakushiken (modified spear hand strike) and 2 baseball bats with his shins, easily. This isn't BS spacer breaking, but old school breaking. I like this style a lot as it does not concentrate on just kumite like so many modern styes do, or performing kata without any regard for what the movement means (bunkai). 2 person drills abound and good old fashioned hard work through hojo undo and kotekitai (Body hardening) are a staple. Very soft yet very hardcore and deadly! 

In addition the largest organization emphasizes change and adaptation, if it makes sense, and has even incorporated BJJ into many of its school's curricula. Many of the grappling concepts seen in the ti derived versions of Shorin and Goju are absent as O'Shinshii Uechi learned an art in Southern China called Kinga Noon (Pangai No'on in Hogan) and brought it back as intact as possible. It is truly refelctive of Southern Chiese Chuan Fa, whereas Goju and Shorin are "MMAs" so to speak, and make use of Judo-like and JJJ-like techs taken from Tegumi (Okinawan Wrestling). As a result BJJ is a good complimentary art to this in-close style of fighting.

Others:

The other significant school of thought in Okinawan karate is the art of Isshin Ryu. Tatsuo Shimabukuro took what he knew of Shuri Te and Naha Te (Shorin and Goju) and integrated them. He used mostly Shuri Kata and made one up called Sunsu, or the "Dragon Boy" form, his own personalized kata. He left out many inportant kata from Shorin and Goju, but all-in-all it is a good Okinawan system and Marine recruits use it for their basic h2h training and can even get a BB in this USMC version of Okinawan karate/Isshin ryu. It is even more upright than the Shuri te styles, and many of its forms were simplified. It also uses lots of low kicks, like Matsumura Seito (Orthodox), and hard Sanchin like Goju Ryu. Like Shorin it relies heavily on "boxing" techs.

I hope all this helps. I'm surprised no one else posted this quick history of original karate. maybe they thought you should research this stuff yourself on the net and elsewhere. Well, I did it for you and them. You can thank me later.

BTW, this is my first post!!!! Glad to be here.


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## Ippon Ken (Jun 20, 2004)

Oh yeah Shotokan: 

Shotokan is extremely linear and forceful Shorin Ryu with less emphasis on stepping to the side (Tai Sabaki) and more towards the fighting fire with fire mentality. It gets much of its tenseness form Goju's Sanchin. I've never understood why people thought of Goju as hard-soft and Shorin as just hard. ALL Okinawan karate is hard-soft. The majority of Goju I've seen is too soft to be effective or so hard it can be harmful to the practitioner. 

I think Shotokan took the linear aspect of offense from Shorin to the extreme. May of its early practitioners were Kendo-ka so they were use to fencing footwork and strategy. As a result it now looks like a very rigid form of Okinawan karate. After Funakoshi's book "Karate-do Kyohan" was published the original Shorin from which Funakoshi got many of his fighting principles was all but lost. The stances grew in length and width. The kicks got higher, athleticism replaced sound technique and karate began its change from a bujutsu to a budo. Ikken Hisatsu, another (Japanese) Kendo term was adopted and used. It means "one blow, one kill" which makes sense in Kendo or Kenjutsu, but means nothing in Okinawan karate. The Okinawans used the term Uchichiesu, which meant "that last, decisive blow". There could have been a myriad of techs before that strike or technique. Okinawans say "you fight until you've won". 

So Shotokan went from a fighting science to a philiosophical form or art, which was Gichin Funakoshi's wish. He wanted to preserve Okinawan Budo and get away from the impression the Japanese had that it was a Chinese influenced, barabaric form of fighting. It was and in some nodern incarnations, still is. So he made it less potent, like Judo vs. AikiJuJutsu. The intent was lost, which many senior Shotokan students say was to make karate appealing to the modern sports enthusiasts and hobbyists. Nakayama Sensei said that he hopes when he dies and goes to wherever, that O'Sensei Funakoshi is not mad at him for changing his interpretation of Okinawan karate too much. He explained that he needed to do it so the common dweeb, I mean person, could vibe with it.

Anyway, you can think of Shotokan as Okinawan karate, stripped bare, injected with Japanese samurai spirit (very different from Okinawan Bushi spirit) and made a fun game and sport. Much of its SD efficacy is lost, unless you go back to the source and see what the modified, modified Shotokan kata were really suppose to look like and what the true oyo and kihon bunkai were. I hope this doesn't anger anyone, as the truth often does. 

I may need to work on my diplomacy, but then again f-ck diplomats and polytrickshuns. I'm a karate-ka!


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## TimoS (Jun 20, 2004)

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Shobayashi (which has many variants including Shorinji Ryu, Seibukan and Sukunaihayashi)



Not quite. There are some errors in that statement. First of all Sukunaihayashi is just another reading of Shorin, indicating the specific kanji. I think that Shobayashi, which can also be read as Shorin, uses a different kanji for Sho. The error comes when you're differentiating Seibukan from Sukunaihayashi, because Seibukan is Sukunaihayashi branch of Shorin. Also not all Shorinji styles sprang from Shobayashi. 

I think the reason for this confusion can sort of be traced back to Kyan Chotoku. Kyan was one of the most influential karate sensei of his time and many of the Shorin and Shorinji styles trace their lineage back to him. According to my understanding, Kyan himself never named his style, he just said that it originally comes from Shaolin (= Shorin). According to Shobayashi master Eizo Shimabukuro, Kyan left him in charge of his style, but my understanding is that it was Shimabukuro who named it Shobayashi. Mind you, I've seen some claims that Eizo Shimabukuro didn't learn directly from Kyan, but from his brother Tatsuo Shimabukuro, the founder of Isshin ryu karate, who did study with Kyan. Whether or not these claims are true, I don't know (nor particularly care)


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## RRouuselot (Jun 20, 2004)

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> So Shotokan went from a fighting science to a philiosophical form or art, which was Gichin Funakoshi's wish. _He wanted to preserve Okinawan Budo and get away from the impression the Japanese had that it was a Chinese influenced, barabaric form of fighting. _


You need to look at the time Funakoshi was try to teach karate in Japan.....it was right before Japan was going to invade China and at that time anything Chinese was looked down upon as 3rd rate, so in order for karate to expand it needed to become distanced from it's Chinese-ness. 


As for the differences between Okinawan and Japanese Karate........in my opinion there a far too many to list. 

Just as a side note.........you can't really tell where Naha and Shuri are seperated they are so close geographically (now any way). In olden times it would have taken you maybe 45 minutes to walk from one place to another.
The differences between Naha, Shuri and Tomari "styles" was only political. You could compare it to modern baseball........Dodgers vs Yankees kind of thing..........either way it's still baseball.
Most styles have kata from at least 2 or more of those cities so I fail to see how one can call it a "Tomari style" etc. Also, given the fact that most karateka knew one maybe two kata up until the begining of the 20th century and that was their "style" it's even harder to see where someone can call it "XXXXXXX" style........now are styles are a combination several peoples "styles". 


In our Assoc. there is a a famous quote by my teacher. He was asked many years ago in Okinawan by one of the senior students "what kind of karate are you teaching me?" to which my teacher answered "Okinawan Karate", the same student asked again thinking the question was not understood, to which my teacher replied......."all karate is Okinawan karate".

When you think about it it really makes no difference which "style" you study as long as you study for the right reasons and study sincerely.


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## Ippon Ken (Jun 20, 2004)

TimoS said:
			
		

> Not quite. There are some errors in that statement. First of all Sukunaihayashi is just another reading of Shorin, indicating the specific kanji. I think that Shobayashi, which can also be read as Shorin, uses a different kanji for Sho. The error comes when you're differentiating Seibukan from Sukunaihayashi, because Seibukan is Sukunaihayashi branch of Shorin. Also not all Shorinji styles sprang from Shobayashi.
> 
> I think the reason for this confusion can sort of be traced back to Kyan Chotoku. Kyan was one of the most influential karate sensei of his time and many of the Shorin and Shorinji styles trace their lineage back to him. According to my understanding, Kyan himself never named his style, he just said that it originally comes from Shaolin (= Shorin). According to Shobayashi master Eizo Shimabukuro, Kyan left him in charge of his style, but my understanding is that it was Shimabukuro who named it Shobayashi. Mind you, I've seen some claims that Eizo Shimabukuro didn't learn directly from Kyan, but from his brother Tatsuo Shimabukuro, the founder of Isshin ryu karate, who did study with Kyan. Whether or not these claims are true, I don't know (nor particularly care)


Thanks. Maybe I should have said Kyan-influenced Shorin Ryu. Whether it classified as Chubu Shorin, Ryukyu Shorin, Shaolin Shorin, Shorinji Ryu, Shobayshi, so on, it is all Shorin highly influenced by the perspectives and experiences of Grandmaster Chotoku Kyan.

Sukunaihayashi is a confusing one as it use to be called Seibukan, which many of the BBs who practice at my dojo use to train in. I used Shobayashi as the main heading because there is no easier way to delineate between the Kyan Ryuha. Sorry if I offended you in any way.
 If you call it Sukunaihayashi, ShorinJi Ryu, Matsubayashi, Shobayashi or Kobayashi it all points to the Shaolin Temple (one of them or all I don't know). They all mean "pine forest" in some way, regardless of the size of the forest or whether it is Hogan or Japanese. Even Matsumura's name refers to pine trees. So Matsumura Seito without the "Shorin" or "Hayashi" can be seen to refer to the pine groves that surrounded the Fukian Shaolin Temple. 

Peace and thanks for the corrections, once again.


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## Ippon Ken (Jun 20, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> You need to look at the time Funakoshi was try to teach karate in Japan.....it was right before Japan was going to invade China and at that time anything Chinese was looked down upon as 3rd rate, so in order for karate to expand it needed to become distanced from it's Chinese-ness.
> 
> 
> As for the differences between Okinawan and Japanese Karate........in my opinion there a far too many to list.
> ...


Thank you sensei Rousellot. I have the utmost respect for Funakoshi Gichin. He transmitted what he learned from Asato, Itosu and Matsumura as best he could. He frowned upon jiyu kumite, but knew that it probably needed to be done so that the Japanese people could understand the practical application of karate technique. There still hasn't been an acuurate way to measure the efficacy of karate fighting techniques. Even the use of Bogu gear adds a bulkiness, awkwardness, and different proprioception, than does say Judo randori. Still, you must get wet in some way.

I would agree that even Shotokan as it was practiced by the older masters like Ohshima and Nakayama was a different animal. It was very animalisitc and brutal. Jiyu Kumite on Okinawa in the 60s and early 70s was much rougher than it is now, for the most part. Now it is a game of flippy slap-tag. I can see why Funakoshi would be hesitant about trying to codify and reign in karate. He knew that the tode he learned would evolve and adapt to the times and he was smart enough to allow this, even with some hesitation. His memory as the purveyor and perpetuator of karate worldwide was a blessing for all modern karate-ka. That is a great enough legacy to stand on its own, regardless of what people think of Shotokan or karate in general these days. All martial artists should include his name in their prayers every night!

I would agree and disagree about the "all Okinawan karate or karate is the same" comment. They all lead to a goal, that I would agree with, but the methods and methodologies, from posture to strategy, are often quite different even amongst the same ryu. This I know for sure, and I also understand that there is the circutious route, the short route and the moderate route to MAs realization. Which you pick is up to you, and often can only be recognized after decades of MAs experience.

Stiil, I love to see good karate,,even if its Tang Soo Do (just kiddin')! Peace...


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## RHD (Jun 20, 2004)

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> Uechi Ryu: This style is the most "Chinese" of the three. It relies heavily on Tiger/Crane/Dragon Chuan Fa, and resembles FooChow (Fujian) White Crane the closest (along with Matsumura Seito).
> 
> In addition the largest organization emphasizes change and adaptation, if it makes sense, and has even incorporated BJJ into many of its school's curricula. Many of the grappling concepts seen in the ti derived versions of Shorin and Goju are absent as O'Shinshii Uechi learned an art in Southern China called Kinga Noon (Pangai No'on in Hogan) and brought it back as intact as possible. It is truly refelctive of Southern Chinese Chuan Fa,Others:
> 
> .



Let me just say thanyou for posting!  However, I must ask as a practitioner of Southern Chinese fighting systems what happened to Okinawan Karate if its based on them?  

Most Southern Chinese martial arts make use of the concept of bridging.  (on a very basic level of understanding) This is where we make contact either hard...to destroy the bridge, or soft...to control the bridge and feel the intent of the attacker.  Also the hands, once contact is made, never leave the opponent.  In addition there is extensive reliance on close range, standing grappling skills, and "short power" strikes that deliver full body power with seemingly little effort.  In particular, if systems were based in the Tiger and Crane school aka Hung Gar (I practice this)...what happened to the tiger claws, crane beaks, and so forth?  Please don't read this as an attack, I am genuinely curious as I've seen little to lead me to concur that Okinawan karate has such deep Southern Chinese roots.

Mike


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## Ippon Ken (Jun 21, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Let me just say thanyou for posting! However, I must ask as a practitioner of Southern Chinese fighting systems what happened to Okinawan Karate if its based on them?
> 
> Most Southern Chinese martial arts make use of the concept of bridging. (on a very basic level of understanding) This is where we make contact either hard...to destroy the bridge, or soft...to control the bridge and feel the intent of the attacker. Also the hands, once contact is made, never leave the opponent. In addition there is extensive reliance on close range, standing grappling skills, and "short power" strikes that deliver full body power with seemingly little effort. In particular, if systems were based in the Tiger and Crane school aka Hung Gar (I practice this)...what happened to the tiger claws, crane beaks, and so forth? Please don't read this as an attack, I am genuinely curious as I've seen little to lead me to concur that Okinawan karate has such deep Southern Chinese roots.
> 
> Mike


Thanks for the props. Have you seen any Okinawan styles? The hand forms you mentioned, are used in abundance. For instance in Matsumura Seito and Kobayashi not only is the crane's beak used, but also the phoenix-eye fist (ippon ken ), Chikudon-ippon ken (middle knuckle fist strike), crane's wing ,the pitchfork hand, Machimura's crane fist (Tsuruken), the ox-jaw strike (back of the wrist), tiger's claw (Shorinkan), leopard's paw, etc.. In Goju, which you can see in forms like Shisochin, and In Shorin Ryu, which you can see in forms like Naihanchi, the concept of bridging and trapping is taught/emphasized over and over. Okinawan karate is not a long range art. It's an "any range" art, with emphasis on in-close sticking, striking and grappling. What style of Okinawan karate did you see that makes you think otherwise? You're not just assuming right? Chin-na/tuite is emphasized greatly. Not only do we do standing chin-na, grappling on the ground with submissions is taught too, as are many Shuai Jiao and Tegumi throws. Didn't you read that in my earlier post?

The truth is that most karate regardless of lineage forgot or never (knew) taught these things. That's why I say there is a delineation amongst ryuha regardless of what anyone thinks. Your question is not one of ignorance. Most karate and MAs is crap. That's the truth. Like 95%!!! Many tried and true methods of fighting and self-betterment have been lost due to the quick-fix mentality, advent of McDojos and Paul Mitchel sponsored competitions.

Many legit Okinawan styles still refuse to spar unless it is 2-person sets/drills. Shinshi (sensei) with an old school mentality think that it is useless beyond brown belt and in fact teaches hope fighting and bad habits. Sparring came from kendo and judo. That's the modern Japanese Budo contribution, along with regimented classes, an emphasis on striking only, do-gi and obi (belts). Now challenge matches, for-the-reals fighting were common, but jiyu (free)sparring is a new concept made by folks who wanted to make user friendly karate styles. 

The Okinawans identify with their Chinese heritage more closely, and aren't afraid to voice that. It's so funny to me, because most Chinese MAs types I've met will argue with me and say that what THEY/I do (Okinawan karate-ka) is basic chaun shu at best. Boo Sheet!!! Chinto, Gojushiho and Kusanku are not beginner forms in any system. In fact if you've seen Gojushiho you would see its use of the crane's beak strike, and you would say "hey, we do that". Why all this xenophobia amongst the great Asian cultures of China and Japan? If someone is saying "hey, thanks, we like what you guys do, and we do it too, in our own Okinawan way" you cats should be like "see our MAs are real, even the Filipinos, Okinawans, Thai, Burmese and Indonesians dig them". It's just an elitist attitude based on not knowing the whole truth, and based on stupid nationalism. You don't need to be Buddhist, Daoist or Confuscianist to understand Chinese fighting. The training in Chuan Fa/Ken Po derived arts gives you a taste of all of that esoteric stuff.

Why would I want or need to identify with Kung Fu right now anyway? Out of all the modern interpretations of MAs they are seen as the least effective and the most circuitous. I understand that most kung fu is like most karate. It's crap. It's fun-time and used to create a cool daycare business or to rake in the unknowing masses' money. I also know that old chaun fa, especially as taught on Taiwan, was/is a very effective way of self preservation and a life-long endeavor. 

I tell you Okinawan karate's history because that's the way it is. I know for sure that Shaolin Chuan Fa (especially Southern) and White Crane (Southern) have a very significant INFLUENCE on all "old karate" (i.e.: "Okinawan"). How come real exponents and experts of the Chinese MAs like Yang Jwing-Ming, know this? 

Now influence means just that, it doesn't mean duplicate or facsimile. Like I said styles like Shorin Ryu are the first MMAs, because they are a combo of 3 arts or more.

If you want to know specifics we can PM I guess. I will answer any questions you have. Until then train smart and look for a good Uechi Ryu, Higaonna Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu or Jukendo school. You'll see the chuan fa in those styles if you look. Karate is too varied to lump into a general "karate" category. Intent is everything.


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## RHD (Jun 21, 2004)

Ippon Ken said:
			
		

> ...Many legit Okinawan styles still refuse to spar unless it is 2-person sets/drills. Shinshi (sensei) with an old school mentality think that it is useless beyond brown belt and in fact teaches hope fighting and bad habits. Sparring came from kendo and judo. That's the modern Japanese Budo contribution, along with regimented classes, an emphasis on striking only, do-gi and obi (belts). Now challenge matches, for-the-reals fighting were common, but jiyu (free)sparring is a new concept made by folks who wanted to make user friendly karate styles.
> 
> The Okinawans identify with their Chinese heritage more closely, and aren't afraid to voice that. It's so funny to me, because most Chinese MAs types I've met will argue with me and say that what THEY/I do (Okinawan karate-ka) is basic chaun shu at best. Boo Sheet!!! Chinto, Gojushiho and Kusanku are not beginner forms in any system. In fact if you've seen Gojushiho you would see its use of the crane's beak strike, and you would say "hey, we do that". Why all this xenophobia amongst the great Asian cultures of China and Japan? If someone is saying "hey, thanks, we like what you guys do, and we do it too, in our own Okinawan way" you cats should be like "see our MAs are real, even the Filipinos, Okinawans, Thai, Burmese and Indonesians dig them". It's just an elitist attitude based on not knowing the whole truth, and based on stupid nationalism. You don't need to be Buddhist, Daoist or Confuscianist to understand Chinese fighting. The training in Chuan Fa/Ken Po derived arts gives you a taste of all of that esoteric stuff.
> 
> ...




Good, now we've got some good info here.  I've seen RyuKyu kempo and Ishhinryu forms.  I can see many techniques within them that "might have been" things like crane techniques and so forth.  But they've been changed.  Granted, I like the direct and simplistic approach that I've seen within these systems, but if the Chuan Fa is there, it faint and faded...lost its Chinese  flavor so to speak.  

Don't get me wrong here, I agree that most kung fu today is crap.  But I have a hard time seeing the Chinese roots in karate, or at least a more direct and undiluted connection.  I'd very much like to see the forms of the systems you say have a more Chinese flavor to them.  I like to see anything related to or that can give insight into Southern Chinese arts.  Where can one find these styles?

Mike


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## glad2bhere (Jun 22, 2004)

Dear Mike et al: 

I can't jump on that bandwagon just yet. What we know as Chuan Fa in the 21st century is still coming out from under the misdirected policies of the PRC instituting Wu Shu as the unifying force for some 400 various "styles of Chinese Boxing" that have developed over the centuries. The mainland Chinese people, themselves, have been quick to realize that the more acrobatic Wu Shu pales by comparison to many of the standing Boxing traditions. There is also a scramble on to recollect the original traditions, sometimes even extending invitations to well-regarded personalities from Taiwan to visit China and share their experience (before they pass on). I think it also compares very different things to bump an outside style such as the widely popular Long Fist sytles of Boxing up against the tighter inside styles such as Wing Chun,  Hung Gar, Hsing-I and Ba Qua Chang. I also subscribe to the idea that it is not so much the style one practices but the nature of ones' own practice as he follows a particular Path that makes a great or poor practitioner. Lastly, before I would lay a judgement on the Chinese Boxing experience I think I would ask myself whom I have seen represent a given art. There are a lot of folks publishing DVD-s on their arts at a mediocre level of performance while in the hinterlands of many countries real experts are content to train daily and live in obscurity.
 FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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