# Questions- Help please!



## Banana Man (Jun 16, 2003)

t seems there has been some lively debate regarding the names of the Filipino Martial Arts and their origins.  To clarify matters for myself, please help me with a couple of questions:

I think we covered the term Kali from many sides, but what are the origins of the terms Arnis and Escrima?  

Also, does anyone know, or have an idea how far back the fighting arts of the Phinillpines go?  How ancient (or not) is it?

Thanks!

Allain


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## arnisador (Jun 22, 2003)

There's been much discussion of this previously--try the Search facility! The usual story is that arnis comes from a Spanish word for (battle) harness, while escrima comes from a Spanish word for (to) skirmish.


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## lhommedieu (Jun 23, 2003)

esgrima, n.f. (art of) fencing; _maestro de esgrima_, fencing master

esgrimir, v.t. to practice the use of weapons, to fence, to fend off

Cassell's Spanish Dictionary, 1959. p. 394


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## Banana Man (Jun 23, 2003)

Much appreciated!

Allain Atienza
atienzakali.com


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## lhommedieu (Jun 23, 2003)

Mark Wiley makes the distinction between "ancient." "classical" and "modern" Filipino martial arts in Filipino Martial Culture. 

According to his classificatory system, the "ancient" Filipino martial arts "were practiced prior to the arrival of the Spanish in 1521.  Generally speaking, the "ancient" arts (often referred to as kali), are structured around the use of Indonesian and Malaysian swords (i.e., _kris, barong, kampilan_), the use of indigenous projectile weapons (i.e., _sumpit, pana_), the use of flexible weapons (i.e., _kadena, panyo_, with footwork patterned around geometric shapes.  Preserved in the unconquered Muslim areas of the southern Philippines, these arts did not undergo the same evolutionary process as did eskrima and arnis.  Therefore, the "ancient" art of kali could not have possibly maintained eskrima or arnis in its curricular phases - Spain, the United States, and Japan had not, as of the height of the this art's popularity in the archipelagio (prehistory to A.D. 1521), dominated the Philippines."  (p. 313)

Note:  here Wiley is intentionally using the word "kali" to refer to the Filipino martial art of weaponry prior to 1521 _only in a global sense_  and not to a _specific_ martial art called "kali," which he elsewhere argues did not exist per se.

As for how far back "kali" goes prior to 1521, I would argue that it goes as far back as human beings acquired and used weapons to hunt and to defend themselves.  

What follows is a paraphrase of Wiley with respect to the above:

Archeological findings in 1962 that are considered evidence of remains of _Homo sapien_ were carbon-dated to approximately 22,000 B.C. 

Wiley accepts Jocano's assertion that geological records suggest that the Philippines were once part of the Asian mainland, and that, rather than successive "waves" of Malay and Indonesian peoples transplanting their cultures upon the indigenous Filipinos in whole, "Indonesians, Malays, and Chinese island-hopped across it on their way to trading posts in other countries." (p. 34) (I take it that the oceans must have risen after the ice-age to account for the Philippines becomming islands.)

Based on this record, it is probable that "ancient" Filipino martial arts, in some form or another, were practiced prior to their influence by Indonesian, Malay, and Chinese cultures.  In some cases (for example, interior or mountain tribes), they may not have received any influence at all.  Several Pacific tribes were, after all "discovered" up until the 1930's with little or no prior contact with outside cultures (and perhaps someone with more knowledge of Filipino history than I possess can tell me if this case holds for the Philippines.)  

After the influx of sailing vessels from Indonesia, Malaysia, and China from 500 B.C. to 900 A.D., Jocono further notes that about 1000 A.D., "Filipino contacts with the outside world became intensified.  The major impetus being a relatively efficient maritime transportation." (p. 34).

By 1293, however, the influence of successive Indonesian empires (Srivijayan, Madjapahit) that regulated trade between China and India led to changes in prehistoric Philippine communtity life, "including specialization of labor, and a stratified social organization (political, economic, religious, etc.).  There developed a need to protect the land that a given group had claimed as their own through farming and taming of animalsl  I]As a result, the development of crude combatives implementing the empty hands and various hunting tools began to surface.[/I] (p. 34, emphasis mine)

In addition, Philippine-Chinese contacts intensified during the Tang period and reached their height around the 14th to 15th centuries.  Wiley states that Chinese fighting arts were taught to members of the royal Filipino families as a good-faith gesture to strengthen trade agreements.

Wiley states that, "(a)though we can neither prove nor disprove the actual progression of the peopling of the Philippines, we do know that the archipelago had extensive prehistoric contact with Indonesia, Malaysia, and China.  It follows, then, that there is not a single-source from which Filipino martial arts developed, but at least three.  Therefore, we must view the "ancient" Filipino martial arts as artifacts of a time and place.  While they may have had common origins, differences evolved over time as a result of changing environmental conditions and the cultural experiences of the inhabitants in three island regions, Luzon, the Visayas, and Mindanao." (p. 35)

Anyhow that's my paraphase of Wiley, for better or worse.  In his bibliography, he cites Jocomo's Philippine Prehistory, as well as numerous other texts.  If anyone can recommend some other references, please let me know.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## krys (Jun 24, 2003)

> Wiley accepts Jocano's assertion that geological records suggest that the Philippines were once part of the Asian mainland, and that, rather than successive "waves" of Malay and Indonesian peoples transplanting their cultures upon the indigenous Filipinos in whole, "Indonesians, Malays, and Chinese island-hopped across it on their way to trading posts in other countries." (p. 34) (I take it that the oceans must have risen after the ice-age to account for the Philippines becomming islands.)



Hello Steve, there is a model of filipino history that states that today's majority filipinos descend from austronesian peoples who began migrating around 4000-3000 B.C. (after the land bridge closed)  from Southern China or Taiwan see:Bellwood, Fox, Tyron. The austronesians: Historical and Comparative Perspectives.

I took a filipino anthropology class at University and my teacher's theory was that austronesian's were once ocean dwelling communities travelling in boats called "Barangays" (village in filipino....).
I looked on the web for his publications but couldn't find anything, if you are interested in the origin of filipinos, his name is Esteban Maganon....

Thanks,
Christian.
Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.


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## Black Grass (Jun 24, 2003)

The best book on Philippine pre-history IMO is by William Scott. His book "Barangay" is a compendium of his other books. He has complete chapter on weapondry and warfare. Most of the book focues on the Visayan region. The word barangay is corruption of the orginal word balangay which is a large outrigger boat but in the large sense means 'community'


If you wish to know what the ancient Visayans might have been  like take a look at the Lumad (natives) of Bukidnon province. The Bukidnon, Higaonon, and Talaandig were all one tribe at one time ( I do not know much of the history of other eastern mindano tribes such as the Manobo, Bagobo, or MatigSalug). The Talaangig ( the orginal name of all three tribes) lived in and around the on the coast of Northern Mindanao, modern day Cagayan de Oro.   They were driven in land by the muslim tribes (Maranao/Maranaw) inland to present day Bukidnon province.   

The spear and shield were the most import arms. There still exists today a war dance called the Salog (which I learned a little of), in which the spear and shield are used to simulates some of there usage in battle. When I asked my uncle a Bukidnon datu if there is anyone who practices the old martial ways he said 'no, they all have rifles now'. 

It is my opnion from my personal research in Mindanao and other academic sources such as William Scott, that modern day Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis has changed and evolved over the centuries so much that NO ONE can claim that the FMA they practice is ancient. Its like saying 'I practice Shotokan Karate hence I'm practicing ancient chinese kun tao/wu shu/kung fu' Sure the roots might be there but its so diffrent now it has become its own thing. We are talking over 5 centuries since the FMA were first documented. Kali = ancient FMA just seems plain silly to me.

Vince 
aka Black Grass


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## lhommedieu (Jun 24, 2003)

Krys and Vince,

Thank you.  I have also heard that Anthony Reid is a good source for Filipino history - although his books appear to concentrate on a later period.

Re. the question of whether it is possible to study an "ancient" FMA system:  At first blush the arguement may come down to whether or not a system has been influenced by Spanish and other European weapons arts ("classical" systems) or whether they reflect the organizational and stylistic changes that were made in the twentieth century ("modern" systems) -  according to Wiley's classification.  (If anyone has a different way of distinguishing "ancient" systems from any others I'd be interested in hearing about it.) 

Thus, systems from the Mindanao region that appear to have little "classical" and "modern" influence (and that are more likely to have been influenced by Indonesian, Malaysian, and Chinese weapons arts - and particularly, Islam culture) are probably prime candidates for "ancient" FMA status - according to Wiley's classification system.  

(It is interesting to note that he characterizes Kalis Illustrisimo as an "ancient" system - even though the Illustrisimo family lived in northern Cebu province.  I am guessing that this is probably because Tatang's formative years as a kalista were spent in Sulu, and his system took on a different stylistic flavor as a result of his training there.  Of course, I could be way off - so somebody please correct me if I fell off the deep end here.  Similarly - Edgar Sulite's Lameco system is characterised by Wiley as an "ancient" style:  perhaps someone with more knowledge of Lameco than I have would care to comment?)

This is probably a gross overgeneralization, (and perhaps the old "Kali is from the south, eskrima from the middle, and arnis from the north" adage got some measure of its truth from considerations of this nature) but that's all we can do at this point:  generalize.

It is certainly true that all of us probably practice a Filipino martial art that has been mediated in some part by the social and political changes that have occurred in the Filipines during the 20th and 21st centuries.  This is because the _teaching_ of Filipino martial arts has moved, for the most part, out the tribe and village and into the town and classroom (and it should be said:  the seminar circuit and DVD).  But does that make an "ancient" FMA less "ancient," or a "classical" system less "classical?"

Finally:  there are only so many ways you can move a weapon around.  IMHO, you can call yourself whatever you want before you get on the dance floor, but once there - can you dance? 

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## krys (Jun 25, 2003)

This may be of interest:

When the Spanish began to colonize the Philippine islands the culture and technology was by no means that far behind most other areas of the world. Indeed, in many areas the Filipinos were quite advanced. The metal smith, Panday Piray of Pampanga, was so skilled at weapons making and other types of metal working that the Spanish entrusted him with opening the first Spanish artillery foundry in the country. The Spanish found that the Filipinos made their own small arquebuses, or portable cannons, usually made of bronze. Larger cannons made of iron and resembling culverins provided heavier firepower. The iron cannon at Raha Soliman's house was about 17 feet long and was made from clay and wax moulds.

The most fearsome weapon though was the famed lantaka, or swivel gun. Unlike the Spanish cannons these guns were placed on flexible swivels that allowed the gunner to quickly track a moving target. The lantakas of the Moros gave the Spanish so much trouble that they always included native ships, like the karakoa, equipped with lantakas to counter the Moro weapons. The most impressive lantakas had two revolving barrels. These were eventually exported to South America, and may have become the precursor of the Gatling gun.

Piray started a tradition of high quality metal casting that lasted for centuries in many parts of the Philippines. Many individuals with surnames like Piray, Viray, etc., may have ancestors who were members of the guilds of smiths who followed the Piray lineage. The metal work involving authentic native swords was also of the highest quality. Unfortunately, this fell into disuse among most of the lowlanders of the North. However, the Muslims and animists of the South continued to make very fine kampilans, krisses, etc., that can take many years of work to complete. Sword makers were also astrologers who waited for auspicious conjunctions of planets before proceeding with each elaborate phase of the sword making ritual. The passage of the sword from the maker to the owner was a very mystical ceremony, replete with all types of supernatural beliefs. A well-made kampilan or kris is really one of the finest pieces of handicraft that can be found anywhere. In the North, they also had the kampilan, and another excellent weapon known as the bararao.

In addition to weapons, the Filipinos made good armor for use in the battlefield. The Moros in particular had armor that covered the entire body from the top of the head to the toes. Fortresses known as kuta or kota, and moog were built to protect large communities. These fortresses were protected with the cannons mentioned above. Governor Sande noted that when he asked local Filipinos to contribute their bronze cannons for use against the Moros, he received the equivalent of 400 quintals of bronze (about 21 tons) from an area with a radius of about eight leagues (24 miles). However, the large powerful cannons were more scarce. The fort at Tondo had less arnaments that an average Spanish warship. The problem was the big weapons often required the same complex, lengthy ritualistic procedure in manufacture as swords like the kampilan and the kris. Also, even small firearms were seen as status symbols for datus and rahas and thus, were generally too expensive for the ordinary warrior. However, the main disadvantage suffered by the Filipinos was that their guns were too often turned against themselves in service of "his Catholic majesty."

Although contemporary paintings exist of some Filipino forts, few remains exist. Strangely, in the far eastern corner of Ifugao Province remains of a very ancient fortress have been discovered. The fort had stone walls that averaged several meters in width and about two to three times the width in height. At first it was thought that these were the remains of an unknown Spanish fortress, but advanced dating methods and analysis of the tools, utensils and other artifacts showed that the most likely dating was about 2,000 B.C.

Some of the weaponry concocted by the Filipino was quite unusual. For instance, one weapon was the prototype of the modern yoyo, and it returned to is owner after being flung at an opponent. 

There is further information on the "moro" wars in the book "Swish of The Kris" (Vic Hurley), it can be downloaded  but it is  biased against muslims.....

Thanks,
Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.


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## thekuntawman (Jun 25, 2003)

i think it would be better to say "old style" vs "modern style".

the old style would be a style that is taught through the sparring, with a lot of strategy and philosophy. many of the teachers who teach one on one or very small groups are old style. and they DO rely on teaching for a living, just most of them do not need much money, and dont have schools. old style teachers will not change his techings to keep students longer, but you will probably find some who will teach you most of what they no in a short time, and you will find some that will take a long time to teach what they know. to an old style teacher, most students get bored faster, because he will not show you some thing new every time, and he will make you do the same thing over and over most of the time you come to class. one old man i learned from in the philippines, specializes in the espada at daga technique, showed me a lot in the first couple weeks, and then made me practice for a few more weeks before he show me more. my classmate quit, because he did not want to "pay to practice". i am ashamed to say, that i quit also, for the same reason. i do wish i stayed.

the modern style is a well organized style, with full curriculum, titles or rankings, forms, and lots of prearranged techniques and drills. of course, the modern style is found in schools and seminars and its more appealing to most of the students. they have lots more techniques than the old style, and can teach new things all the time. the modern style teacher usually will either have less fighting skill and good showmanship/entertainer, or he will be a great fighter AND a good showman. modern style teachers like to show what they know, so they are better at it than the old style teachers, who usually suck at demos, but they can fight. in the modern style, you usually have many weapons to choose from that you can learn, but old style teachers usually specialize in only one or two.

i put "ancient" in my advertising, like this years yellow pages, but i know the only real "ancient" martial arts you will find, like here in sacramento, which is taught by nancy gibson, through the  filipino dance. btw, she teaches an old dancing style called "kuntaw singkil", which uses swords and sticks.


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## Sun_Helmet (Jun 26, 2003)

We must also add that indigenous methods of war were chronicled by their enemies. 

In Sayoc Kali, we allow our students to train melees. Group skirmishes. Instead of dueling stick to stick we also have them engage one another group to group. We change the dynamics of the groups as well. This captures the chaos of actual engegements and many of the old accounts begin to bear fruit. Distances are altered , so are formations. It is an opener for those stuck in drill only training or dueling type scenarios. Many tried and true moves from duelling scenarios, end up getting the person in troble.

For instance, I had an involved discussion with some sword practitioners on the use of the Spanish sword vs. Filipino warriors methods. My theory which is based on my practical observance of real life skirmish training and upon reading on Western methods of warfare during that time, resulted in the point of view that the Spanish and Filipino warriors ***NEVER*** engaged in merely sword versus sword skirmishes.

That is a myth.

In skirmish training, once you include projectiles and longer weapons such as a staff simulating a spear, or a shield... all the dynamics of the fighting changes. The rhythm and the tactics change.

Tribes in the Philippines used projectiles in most of their encounters. Whether with spears, or arrows or rocks. There are ample evidence in Spanish writings of their encounters with these methods. Frederic Sawyer wrote of the Filipino  methods of projectiles used to close in on the enemy.

The Tabon cave's oldest relic is a headaxe, which was discovered buried in the skull of its victim. Headaxes in many mountain or cave dwelling tribes are prominent. They used it after closing on their enemy. Many techniques are grabbing with the free hand (often the hair), and hacking with the head axe.

Many of the stick drills contain traps, and some practice it as if they are doing it in the midst of a quick exchange. VERY difficult to pull off (but it can happen). However, if you think of it in terms of the context of warfare, there are many occassions when binds occur. During a bind, a trap with the other hand is very easy to pull off. It can be a hard trap, or one just enough to give you enough space to gain a passable area.

The methods of long weapons, projectiles are all evident in our arts. One just has to apply them in real training to see how they will surface. They are there, one must evolve their training methods to see how they enfold. In Sayoc Kali, every method of attack is also path of a projectile. The projectile as it was used in warrior tribes were not the end all, but an opportunity to close. If the projectile stuck, it was a plus, but not the end. You close, and finish them off, or one of your allies can followup. 

Others have tested the use of longer range weapons against a shorter weapon. If a long weapon has a lethal point or edge, it will alter the dynamics of combat immensely. No matter how fast the opponet is, the spear like weapon has initial advantage. Note that all tribal societies hunt and kill animals which are naturally quicker and stronger than they. Therefore, most likely no opponet is quicker nor stronger than these animals. Arrows are also used which increase the distance from the target. A long weapon gains you initial advantage, and maintaining that gain is what keeps the warrior alive.

Reading the Spanish chronicler's text, you will find numerous accounts of lances being deployed by the the soldiers. In the methods of European lance tactics during that time,  it's height ... an unhorsed enemy warrior carrying a sword, which some Filipinos may have done - would cede a grave disadvantage. Only the arquebus was taking the lance's place as the primary weapon of the Spaniard. The arquebus was used as apsychological weapon as well. It intilled fear to many who had not seen a mobile firearm (heaviier lantakas were harder to run around with and were not as ample). See Jose Rizal's translation of Morga.

For those who want to read about various tribes around the turn of 1900 and earlier, I would recommend tracking down Frederic Sawyer's Inhaboitants of the Philippines. It is cited often in Swish of the Kris. In it you will discover many of the traines which were never subjugated by the Spaniards. A matter of their textual omission in Spanish history has clouded many people's view of Spanish Conquesta. Another resource would be an excellent article found in an early 1900 article in National Geographic. It is full of relevant information of various unknown tribes.

Amongst other sources, there are scientific documents and essays on various tribes by university professors. It can be a very expensive hobby to pursue, but it is worthwhile and necessary - for the fieldwork that is evident in the content.

Take the bits of info you find in them, and look at the real world applications...in real time.

It will not only help your students, your studies and your art, but it will open many avenues for the evolution of your art.

It will ***not*** replace the true lost pre-hispanic history of our fighting arts, but it will bring forth concepts that will be difficult to discount.

Don't take my word for it- do the fieldwork, and perhaps your conclusions would reveal even more of how our ancestors fought.

How does this relate to real world application? Consider that many violent scenarios do not involve more than one attacker. Often, even in a duel type scenario, a weapon is introduced by the attacker's ally - thought to be a  bystander. Learning to get used to the chaos involved ina group skirmish prepares your student to respond correctly.

Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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## krys (Jun 26, 2003)

I was introduced to an old man who accepted me as his student
 after some discussion.
I who told me on the first day he would not teach me the empty hands of his style because there is no empty hands training in his system. I would just have to use the principles and training I received with/against weapons in empty hands situations.
The training was at first very boring and painfull, I really wanted to run away from the first day... I had to force myself to go to lessons,

During my first visit I only saw footwork, basic strikes, had to train barefoot outdoor in the heavy sun during hours, always the same forms, low positions until I got it,  no drilling, he would test me from time to time by hitting me, even when I was injured and bleeding I could not  stop.......
This cannot be taught commercially.....

That was how I was introduced to real Arnis, the drilling stuff I learned before does not really matter..... and I will be forever thankfull for what I received.....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.


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