# Pick-ups = ugly judo?



## Formosa Neijia (Jul 17, 2008)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp324EZGY3A

How do you guys feel about pick-ups as done in the clip above? I'm finding that they are a necessity in certain situations, even though they are considered ugly judo by some.

Thoughts?


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 17, 2008)

1:35 was actually a single leg scissor sweep. That aside, I see no problem with things like this. There is really no way to limit the rules to out-law these kinds of moves without also out-lawing traditional throws. Not to mention, most of those seemed to be done as acidents.


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## Nolerama (Jul 18, 2008)

I think what works, works. For that moment, anyway. I'm not saying one should bank on one approach alone.

But I'm no Judo guy. To seasoned Judo people, that might come off like what a combination of sloppy, swimming punches is to me.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 18, 2008)

I think a few of those guys had a little wrestling cross training in there 

Personally I think there was some really nice throws in there, but then again, I don't do Judo.  But picking up a person of your own weight that is trying to stay on the ground and trained to stay upright is no easy task.

The one thing I don't really like is the emphasis on putting people on there back causes some really ugly falls because the guy is trying to stop himself from going over... using his hands or even neck, not much that can be done about that though.


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## shesulsa (Jul 18, 2008)

For tournament or competition, IMHO picking up is a cheat.


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## Aaron Fields (Jul 18, 2008)

Pick-ups are good judo.  I love them and despite what folks try and say there is no more "muscle" in a good pick up than in anything else.  

A lot of the judo community is wrapped tight around whatever they think was "traditional."  The issue is that "tradition" is based around success, not some ideal of what techniques are legit.  

Kano would be shamed by todays judo, not only in the politics but in the narrowness of scope.  

Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club,
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org


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## zDom (Jul 18, 2008)

I can't comment about whether it those were good/bad pretty/ugly judo or not ...

but WOW. Looks like great martial arts to me.

Nearly all those pickup throws in a self defense situation would have been GAME OVER for the recipient  especially if they decided to put them down on a shoulder or head instead of their back.

Neat stuff.


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## jarrod (Jul 18, 2008)

if it is effective & legal, it is good judo, PERIOD.  at it's heart, judo isn't a set of techniques, it is efficiency of movement.

someone on another message board wrote that "if you have to dive at my legs to beat me, your judo sucks."  it is my opinion that if i can beat you just by "diving at your legs" then YOUR judo sucks.  judo is just like everything else, it has to adapt or it ceases to be a relevent competitive/defensive art & becomes another historical art used to help antiquarian japanophiles stay in shape.  not that there is anything wrong with that, but that has never been the aim of judo.  

peace,

jf


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## Makalakumu (Jul 18, 2008)

The one problem that I see with pick-ups is that they tend to injure other people more then traditional throws.  Kano took a syllabus of material and arranged it so that each throw could be followed by a good ukemi.  This was done for the safety of the competitors.  With pick-ups, uke doesn't really know how he's going to land and tori doesn't know either.  

With that being said, I would say its bad judo because it defeats the spirit of what Kano was going for.


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## Aaron Fields (Jul 18, 2008)

Maunakuma, as a guy that uses pick-ups, that has not been my experience .  I know right where I am going to put uke with a pick-up, and like every throw I can drill it without planting my partner.  

I will argue that tai-otoshi and ura-nage, (knees and necks) hurt more folks than any pick up.  

Kano's goal was to create a method of study and guiding principles, as was mentioned, judo is not a collection of techniques.  

Everyone is free to decide what techniques they will use or not use, but to label something "bad judo" based off what type of technique it is, breaks the goal and spirit of what Kano was trying to do.  The beauty of judo is that 67 throws are just a starting point.

Jarrod's post was spot on.  

In my twenty years I have seen judo become more and more limited in scope and narrow in view.  The olympics and the limiting of so many things within judo, have choped the legs off a great activity. 

I have heard people complain that "old school upright judo" is a thing of the past. Yet, these same people more often than not, support more and more restriction in techniques, grips, groundwork, and give ippon for things that are really just two people rolling to the floor.  

Rules should not decide contests, fighters should. 

Tradition, real tradition, is one of success, not stylistic ideology.


Best Regards,
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, 
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org


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## jarrod (Jul 19, 2008)

my coach told me a story about a judoka friend of his active in the 50's or 60's (can't think of his name) who was accused of using bad judo because he *gasp* used a grip other than right hand lapel/left hand sleeve.  nowadays anyone who tried to throw his opponent from a neutral grip would be considered weird.

tradition without evolution equals extinction.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 19, 2008)

I have a brown belt in judo and I quit competing because I was thrown on my head and neck and woke up in an ambulance.  This was due to a pick up from a failed tomoenage.  Tori basically spiked me into the mat in order to win.  

Would Kano Sensei consider that good judo?  From reading his writings, I don't think he would.

Spiking someone headfirst into the ground may be a great self defense technique, but as far as the sport goes, it is never going to be legal.  Look at the videos of people being spiked in these tournaments.  All of those are potentially fatal injuries.  

When I grasped lapels with my local judo club in Superior, we were looking for clean throws and good falls.  That is good judo for me...


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## Aaron Fields (Jul 19, 2008)

I agree, victory at any cost is not worth it.  Kano would agree, but pickups are no more risky than many of the 67 throws that are considered the basics.  

As a guy who does pickups I have as much control over them and uke as anything else.  

(And no, done well they take no more muscle than anything else, of course I have had great coaching on them.)

To be fair, it sounds like the trouble with your accident was in the person who was throwing you.  What you are talking about is a symptom of the focus on competition judo, not the techniques themselves, and for the record, I agree.  (Part of the problem is folks doing anything they can including bad ukemi, in order to avoid ippon.  That tied with the throwing issues, leads to trouble.  Again, trouble with the players, their focus, not the techniques themselves.)

As far as injuries in judo the Japanese have done a lot of studies on judo and injuries.  I would recite the findings, but you can look them up.  Needless to say, serious injury is very low...serious as in life altering.


Aaron Fields


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## matt.m (Jul 20, 2008)

Ok,

I'll bite......it was great judo.  Competition over self defense judo.  But I am a PanAm Game champ and I love watching outstanding Judo such as this video.  It was great Judo.  The best Judo is the Judo used to win.  As long as it is legal it is not bad or ugly.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 21, 2008)

What needs to happen is we need to get away from the Olympic "ideal", get away from this European influence and the IOC, and get judo back to just exactly the way it was taught in Kano's time, or at least Kimura's.


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## jarrod (Jul 21, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> What needs to happen is we need to get away from the Olympic "ideal", get away from this European influence and the IOC, and get judo back to just exactly the way it was taught in Kano's time, or at least Kimura's.


 
i have to disagree with you there.  imho, kano was first & foremost an innovator.  while i strongly dislike a LOT of what is going on in modern judo, i would hate to see the art ignore lessons learned from experience, exposure to other arts, etc.  

respectfully,

jf


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 21, 2008)

Well that's just it, the predominant amount of change to judo *hasn't* come about through exposure to other arts but by being gradually watered down as the sport aspect gained in popularity and it became an Olympic event and then it became more about rules-lawyering and scoring points than about working on technique.


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## jarrod (Jul 22, 2008)

i think i see what you're saying.  it always looked to me as if the innovation comes from the ground level judoka & then is resisted by the powers that be.  for instance, sambo players came onto the judo scene with a pretty alien approach to gripping.  so while many judoka recognized the value of this & cross-trained or learned how to counter new grips, the governing bodies started placing limits on belt grips or cross grips.  

also there was some exposure to catch wrestling via ad santel which SHOULD have led to even greater innovation.  

if what you're saying is that judo has become too focused on olympic style competion, i agree.  

jf


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 22, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i think i see what you're saying. it always looked to me as if the innovation comes from the ground level judoka & then is resisted by the powers that be. for instance, sambo players came onto the judo scene with a pretty alien approach to gripping. so while many judoka recognized the value of this & cross-trained or learned how to counter new grips, the governing bodies started placing limits on belt grips or cross grips.
> 
> also there was some exposure to catch wrestling via ad santel which SHOULD have led to even greater innovation.
> 
> ...


 
You got it.


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## matt.m (Jul 22, 2008)

Andy,

You are right.  How I randori is not how I would use Judo is SD.  There are just too many ways to do a standing choke it is ridiculous.  However, Kano traveled to Europe and it caught on like wild fire.  Judo is the biggest thing next to football in Europe, Mediterranaen area.  Dude, If you are a Pro Judo athlete you are treated like a huge NFL star here in the U.S.

However, I want to make it perfectly clear.  I take the Korean Yudo philosophy of Judo.  Rep after rep after rep.  I believe that the more you train the more reps you do the easier competitive randori is.  Correct Kazushi, hips across and deep.  Row the oar sort of torque.  But the IOC is not pure Judo and I agree that there are too many Judo schools that just glaze over technique and well put too much emphasis on randori.  That + sloppy technique= bad judo.

I look at it this way, "If my students have to fight, they won't lose because they didn't know there cirriculum or get there reps."


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## vankuen (Jul 23, 2008)

I have mixed feelings on this one.  To me, any martial art should focus on practicality and functionality as the guiding principles of technique.  Additionally, While I do think of Judo as having specific throwing methods where you put in the least amount of effort and obtain the most effective outcome--I also know that Judo--like many arts have guiding principles that can allow for innovation of new throws.  

That said, many of the throws in the video were crap.  In fact most of them were simply what I call panic throws...no technique...most of those pickups were flailing attempts at winning moreso that Judo's science of overcoming an opponent.  There were some pretty obvious kata guruma's, and a couple of goshi style throws that I saw, but for the most part they were panic throws.  

A good judo technique, regardless of whether it's new, old, or currently being developed, is something that can be repeated time and again.  It is done through off balancing and setting up the opponent to obtain the throw, and not simply overpowering them as most competition mindsets are promoting.  It's sad that you very rarely see any kind of kuzushi at all anymore.  It's now become wrestling with a gi in that throws are being forced instead of being done with proper entry and timing.  

But...that's just my opinion.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 23, 2008)

vankuen said:


> That said, many of the throws in the video were crap.  In fact most of them were simply what I call panic throws...no technique...most of those pickups were flailing attempts at winning moreso that Judo's science of overcoming an opponent.  There were some pretty obvious kata guruma's, and a couple of goshi style throws that I saw, but for the most part they were panic throws.
> 
> ...It's sad that you very rarely see any kind of kuzushi at all anymore.  It's now become wrestling with a gi in that throws are being forced instead of being done with proper entry and timing.
> 
> But...that's just my opinion.



I cna kind of see where you're coming from, but is there a place for that too?

I ask because I did randori last week with a black belt that made me fight to the death for everything. I simply couldn't get past his stiff-arming me. So I did the only thing I could -- morote-gari from distance like in the video. I got him and maybe it wasn't pretty but it was the only thing I could do in the situation.

So I see pickups as tools in the toolbox, nothing more nothing less. I feel I need them for situations where nothing else will work. I also need to defend against them, which means we need to do them on each other.

Thoughts?


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## vankuen (Jul 24, 2008)

I understand that competition is supposed to emulate combat in a way, and that to win in competition is to live on the battlefield--and that in and of itself could be justification for panic throws I suppose.  So I do see your point.  However, one should not just go for "anything" because while you still gain physical attribute skills, you don't gain any skills in the actual judo techniques that have been passed down.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jul 24, 2008)

vankuen said:


> I understand that competition is supposed to emulate combat in a way, and that to win in competition is to live on the battlefield--and that in and of itself could be justification for panic throws I suppose.  So I do see your point.  However, one should not just go for "anything" because while you still gain physical attribute skills, you don't gain any skills in the actual judo techniques that have been passed down.



Agreed. I don't pull double leg every time I can because i want to learn how to make the other throws work. But I keep pickups in my toolbox for when they are needed. As you say, it's a battlefield out there sometimes.


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## Abbax8 (Jul 25, 2008)

Pickups are and have been part of judo, Ushiro-Goshi, Utsuri-Goshi, Marote-Gari, etc.

What is ugly is what is considered Ippon in todays competition. Driving someone across the mat who eventually falls on their butt and is pushed over on their back should be NOTHING and was NOTHING when I started judo. In fact we would have been told to knock it off and DO JUDO.

Peace

Dennis


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