# Lun Kai Interview



## Marnetmar (Aug 3, 2014)




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## futsaowingchun (Aug 4, 2014)

interesting the fact that Ip Man never talked about Leung Bik in Fo Shan I' sure he made up that story in HK and also learnt the Baat Cham dao in HK also from another sifu


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## Vajramusti (Aug 4, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> interesting the fact that Ip Man never talked about Leung Bik in Fo Shan I' sure he made up that story in HK and also learnt the Baat Cham dao in HK also from another sifu


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i DON'T THINK SO.  We have gpne over all this here and elsewhere. Lun Kai   did not study with Ip Man long enough to be taught the  knives.
Lun kai was a house servant not a biographer.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 4, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> i DON'T THINK SO.  We have gpne over all this here and elsewhere. Lun Kai   did not study with Ip Man long enough to be taught the  knives.
> Lun kai was a house servant not a biographer.



maybe so but he learnt the pole so why not the knives? at least he would have seen the form or Ip Man talking about it. Also before one leans the knife you learn  a set of exercises to prepare for the set just like the pole Sifu lun Kai did not even know that. Lun Kai learnt up to the pole in 4 years makes no sense IpMan would not teach him before he left so he could work on it him self even if he was not ready for the knife. Ip man himself only learned a few years from Chan wa soon so how did he complete  the system so quickly?


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## Vajramusti (Aug 4, 2014)

Ip man himself only learned a few years from Chan wa soon so how did he complete  the system so quickly?[/QUOTE]
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IMO- there you have the Leung Bik contribution. Ip Man's wing chun became quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun- though he remained thankful to Chan wah Shun 
and his top students for getting him started. He spent several years in Hong Kong with Leung Bik.... who had left Foshan to make a living in Hong Kong.

Ip Man had with him Leung Jans little books on hitting points and medicinre which Leung Bik gave him . Ip Ching donated them to the Ip Man museum in Foshan.
Leung Bik was an old man when Ip Man met him. Ip Man asked his father for extra money- with which he helped support Leung Bik,

I have a xeroxed copy given to me by a friend in Hong Kong.

For me a crucial factor is Ip Man's mature and complete wing chun which isdifferent from Chan Wah Shun's. You can see examples of the Chan Wah Son's 
lineage wing chun on You tube.

The devil is in the details of the differences-in concepts, structure, turning, stepping, dummy, pole and knives.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 4, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> Ip man himself only learned a few years from Chan wa soon so how did he complete  the system so quickly?


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> > IMO- there you have the Leung Bik contribution. Ip Man's wing chun became quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun- though he remained thankful to Chan wah Shun
> > and his top students for getting him started. He spent several years in Hong Kong with Leung Bik.... who had left Foshan to make a living in Hong Kong.
> >
> > Ip Man had with him Leung Jans little books on hitting points and medicinre which Leung Bik gave him . Ip Ching donated them to the Ip Man museum in Foshan.
> > ...




sure I agree Ip Man Wing Chun is quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun's lineage, but  I hear that Leung Bik never exisited. I'm sure Ip Man when in HK learnt something from someone but we really can't confirm from who and what he learned from. In the end it does not matter. Ip Man knew what he knew it does not matter where it came from. Even if he made the whole thing up himself I would be very impressed because that would mean he was a genius..


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## Vajramusti (Aug 4, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> sure I agree Ip Man Wing Chun is quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun's lineage, but  I hear that Leung Bik never exisited. I'm sure Ip Man when in HK learnt something from someone but we really can't confirm from who and what he learned from. In the end it does not matter. Ip Man knew what he knew it does not matter where it came from. Even if he made the whole thing up himself I would be very impressed because that would mean he was a genius..


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Ok to have somewhat different views, I find the Leung Bik story to be credible enough but also IM was indeed a martial arts genius.


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## KPM (Aug 4, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> sure I agree Ip Man Wing Chun is quite different from that of Chan Wah Shun's lineage, but  I hear that Leung Bik never exisited. I'm sure Ip Man when in HK learnt something from someone but we really can't confirm from who and what he learned from. In the end it does not matter. Ip Man knew what he knew it does not matter where it came from. Even if he made the whole thing up himself I would be very impressed because that would mean he was a genius..



Well, here's the thing.....Ip Man Wing Chun doesn't look much like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun, at least what has been taught by CWS's son.  BUT...it does look a lot like Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun.  Especially the early version of Ip Man's system as represented by Leung Sheung and his students.  Maybe there was a Leung Bik.  But that's not a known fact.   But we do have two facts:   Ip Man trained with Yuen Kay Shan, and Ip Man's Wing Chun taught to his first  students in Hong Kong looks a whole lot more like YKS's Wing Chun than it looks like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun.  

Whether Leung Bik really existed or not, you can't discount Yuen Kay Shan's contribution and write him out of the equation.  Yuen Kay Shan was Ip Man's senior, his friend, his training partner, and one of the "three heroes of Foshan" along with Ip Man.  How could anyone think that Ip Man didn't learn things from him?


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## Vajramusti (Aug 4, 2014)

KPM said:


> Well, here's the thing.....Ip Man Wing Chun doesn't look much like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun, at least what has been taught by CWS's son.  BUT...it does look a lot like Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun.  Especially the early version of Ip Man's system as represented by Leung Sheung and his students.  Maybe there was a Leung Bik.  But that's not a known fact.   But we do have two facts:   Ip Man trained with Yuen Kay Shan, and Ip Man's Wing Chun taught to his first  students in Hong Kong looks a whole lot more like YKS's Wing Chun than it looks like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun.
> 
> Whether Leung Bik really existed or not, you can't discount Yuen Kay Shan's contribution and write him out of the equation.  Yuen Kay Shan was Ip Man's senior, his friend, his training partner, and one of the "three heroes of Foshan" along with Ip Man.  How could anyone think that Ip Man didn't learn things from him?


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Suggest you read/see late kwok fu's interview and comments on YKS.


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## KPM (Aug 5, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


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> 
> 
> 
> Suggest you read/see late kwok fu's interview and comments on YKS.



Can you point me towards a link?  Thanks!


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## Vajramusti (Aug 5, 2014)

KPM said:


> Can you point me towards a link?  Thanks!


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You might Google:
A secret interview with legendary Gwok Fu-Wing chun hero from Nam Hoi


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 6, 2014)

KPM said:


> Well, here's the thing.....Ip Man Wing Chun doesn't look much like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun, at least what has been taught by CWS's son.  BUT...it does look a lot like Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun.  Especially the early version of Ip Man's system as represented by Leung Sheung and his students.  Maybe there was a Leung Bik.  But that's not a known fact.   But we do have two facts:   Ip Man trained with Yuen Kay Shan, and Ip Man's Wing Chun taught to his first  students in Hong Kong looks a whole lot more like YKS's Wing Chun than it looks like Chan Wah Shun's Wing Chun.
> 
> Whether Leung Bik really existed or not, you can't discount Yuen Kay Shan's contribution and write him out of the equation.  Yuen Kay Shan was Ip Man's senior, his friend, his training partner, and one of the "three heroes of Foshan" along with Ip Man.  How could anyone think that Ip Man didn't learn things from him?




I agree I'm sure YKS had some influence on IPwing chun. They knew each other and if they where very close the likely hood of exchaning information is very high. I would also agree IP wingchun look more in common with YKS then CWS wing chun. To me they look like  completely different arts.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 6, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> I agree I'm sure YKS had some influence on IPwing chun. They knew each other and if they where very close the likely hood of exchaning information is very high. I would also agree IP wingchun look more in common with YKS then CWS wing chun. To me they look like  completely different arts.


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We have our opinions.  I don't think that YKS had much influence on IP  Man. Yes they knew each other.


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## Marnetmar (Aug 6, 2014)

From what I understand, YKS is basically where Ip's style of chi sau comes from.

Anyway, while we're on the subject:
CWS's SLT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G304i7ZnX4M#t=672

YKS's:






Early Yip Man:






(Allegedly that last version of the form is from before YM met YKS, but from the recent discussion in another thread concerning that video that probably isn't the case. By the way, if anyone has a higher res video of CWS's SLT, please post it)


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## zuti car (Aug 6, 2014)

I found  interesting that some people put a lot of importance in lineage "purity" , like that is making their art somehow better or superior . What I do not understand why is important did Leung Bik really existed or not ? How that fact influence quality of some particular style today ? Isn't more important what you can actually do in a ring or a real fight instead of who your kung fu grandfather was ?  And one more thing , living on the far east I've learned one thing , you can believe only things you saw with your own eyes , especially when we talk about kung fu of any kind


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## Vajramusti (Aug 6, 2014)

zuti car said:


> I found  interesting that some people put a lot of importance in lineage "purity" , like that is making their art somehow better or superior . What I do not understand why is important did Leung Bik really existed or not ? How that fact influence quality of some particular style today ? Isn't more important what you can actually do in a ring or a real fight instead of who your kung fu grandfather was ?  And one more thing , living on the far east I've learned one thing , you can believe only things you saw with your own eyes , especially when we talk about kung fu of any kind


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Some folks spend and waste time  debunking the existence of the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection. Ip Man's own achievements is good enough.


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## zuti car (Aug 7, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Some folks spend and waste time  debunking the existence of the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection. Ip Man's own achievements is good enough.



Good enough for what ? Isn't your achievements suppose to be important to you ( not you specifically but in general) ? I have an impression that some people put more importance in authority of the person ( grandmaster, founder of the style , some ancestor) than to actual technical value of the style , that would be something  like, if  people in science put more importance in a person who discovered something ( like laws of the motion or theory of relativity ) than to discovery its self . And , when I already mentioned science , there is a perfectly good way , called scientific method , to prove things correct or incorrect , right or wrong , existing or non existing ...


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## KPM (Aug 7, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Some folks spend and waste time  debunking the existence of the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection. Ip Man's own achievements is good enough.



Is that why you always chime in when someone suggests that there isn't much evidence to support the existence of Leung Bik?   Is that why you always make sure to try and discredit any possible influence of Yuen Kay Shan on Ip Man?   What's the old saying?......."Me thinks you doth protest too much Sir!"   ;-)


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## Vajramusti (Aug 7, 2014)

KPM said:


> Is that why you always chime in when someone suggests that there isn't much evidence to support the existence of Leung Bik?   Is that why you always make sure to try and discredit any possible influence of Yuen Kay Shan on Ip Man?   What's the old saying?......."Me thinks you doth protest too much Sir!"   ;-)


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Not worth responding to in the  way the question is formed.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 7, 2014)

zuti car said:


> I found  interesting that some people put a lot of importance in lineage "purity" , like that is making their art somehow better or superior . What I do not understand why is important did Leung Bik really existed or not ? How that fact influence quality of some particular style today ? Isn't more important what you can actually do in a ring or a real fight instead of who your kung fu grandfather was ?  And one more thing , living on the far east I've learned one thing , you can believe only things you saw with your own eyes , especially when we talk about kung fu of any kind



I agree what's important is what can be demonstrated to be effective,however lineage tell you something more about your art. like where it came from and it's development. an exm would be if I was a painter, I would study all the old masters going back as far as possible to see how it developed with each generation and what each generation contributed. So that way I would have an education and could talk to anyone about painting instead of just being able to paint well. You would know your place and what contribution you  made to the art. Look at lineage that way and it has more meaning. Just knowing how to hit someone or beat them up is not very impressive..Any thug can do that.


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## zuti car (Aug 7, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> I agree what's important is what can be demonstrated to be effective,however lineage tell you something more about your art. like where it came from and it's development. an exm would be if I was a painter, I would study all the old masters going back as far as possible to see how it developed with each generation and what each generation contributed. So that way I would have an education and could talk to anyone about painting instead of just being able to paint well. You would know your place and what contribution you  made to the art. Look at lineage that way and it has more meaning. Just knowing how to hit someone or beat them up is not very impressive..Any thug can do that.


Knowing history is important , but not the most important . There is one more thing , what we call history in wing chun is not actually that . There isn't any valid historical research which could give us some solid answers about origin and people involved in wing chun development . From scientific point of view wing chun history is nothing more than a rumor , something that cannot be proved at the moment . I do not have problem with that but obviously some people do , even more , when I suggest that there is no enough evidence to prove some things , people feel personally offended and they respond accordingly .What I cannot understand is the reason for such a behavior  , like I am attacking their family members or even gods . If someone has religious feelings toward wing chun ancestors  then he should be clear about it , I would never offend other people's fate in any way , but if that is not case , why not accept the truth as it is with all the evidence we have or do not have ?Why personal attacks for simple statement of the facts ?


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## Vajramusti (Aug 7, 2014)

zuti car said:


> Knowing history is important , but not the most important . There is one more thing , what we call history in wing chun is not actually that . There isn't any valid historical research which could give us some solid answers about origin and people involved in wing chun development . From scientific point of view wing chun history is nothing more than a rumor , something that cannot be proved at the moment . I do not have problem with that but obviously some people do , even more , when I suggest that there is no enough evidence to prove some things , people feel personally offended and they respond accordingly .What I cannot understand is the reason for such a behavior  , like I am attacking their family members or even gods . If someone has religious feelings toward wing chun ancestors  then he should be clear about it , I would never offend other people's fate in any way , but if that is not case , why not accept the truth as it is with all the evidence we have or do not have ?Why personal attacks for simple statement of the facts ?[/QUOTE
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> We are not exactly in a dialog. And  you are assuming what my position is. I will state my position again.
> ...


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## zuti car (Aug 7, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> 3. Ip man says he learned from Leung Bik, To say he didn't is really calling him a liar.  Affirming or negating
> Leung Bik's existence   is constantly recycling chit chat...a plentiful waste of time.
> 
> .


This is the most important part . How long did you live among Chinese ? How well do you know and understand traditional Chinese culture ? Yip Man was not a liar , not from Chinese point of view although Leung Bik never existed . What is considered lie on the west ,among Chinese is a way to keep the "face" of the person, business establishment or even a kung fu style . Empty promises are also not considered as  lies but actually as a politeness .To tell a lie in order to save the "face" is ethically acceptable it is actually a common tool in interpersonal relationships and  communication . Measuring things out of their cultural and historical context is wrong , and will always give wrong conclusion and results .


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## Vajramusti (Aug 7, 2014)

zuti car said:


> This is the most important part . How long did you live among Chinese ? How well do you know and understand traditional Chinese culture ? Yip Man was not a liar , not from Chinese point of view although Leung Bik never existed . What is considered lie on the west ,among Chinese is a way to keep the "face" of the person, business establishment or even a kung fu style . Empty promises are also not considered as  lies but actually as a politeness .To tell a lie in order to save the "face" is ethically acceptable it is actually a common tool in interpersonal relationships and  communication . Measuring things out of their cultural and historical context is wrong , and will always give wrong conclusion and results .


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Enough of your cherry picking...and gatekeeping on Chinese behavior.


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## zuti car (Aug 8, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Enough of your cherry picking...and gatekeeping on Chinese behavior.



 You still didn't answer how well do you know Chinese culture, how much time you did you live among Chinese on the east ? If you have any solid evidence to prove Leung Bik's existence, please present it here . If not , just admit you are wrong . If you cannot do neither ask your self why .


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## Vajramusti (Aug 8, 2014)

zuti car said:


> You still didn't answer how well do you know Chinese culture, how much time you did you live among Chinese on the east ? If you have any solid evidence to prove Leung Bik's existence, please present it here . If not , just admit you are wrong . If you cannot do neither ask your self why .


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Aw come on- you are pushing your stereotype of Chinese behavior on giving face-proves zilch on Ip man. And quit being personal. You don't know much about me. My knowledge 
of Asian including Chinese culture- academic and experiential is considerable. No need to beat my drum here.


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## jks9199 (Aug 8, 2014)

Folks,

Let's try to keep things friendly, OK?  Things seem to maybe be getting a bit tense, and way to personal for internet communication.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 8, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> 
> Let's try to keep things friendly, OK?  Things seem to maybe be getting a bit tense, and way to personal for internet communication.


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I am trying. I understand and agree to forum rules.


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## Marnetmar (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm tempted to write a satirical "Wing Chun bible" that captures all the politics in the community.


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## zuti car (Aug 8, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> I'm tempted to write a satirical "Wing Chun bible" that captures all the politics in the community.


I would love to see that .


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## geezer (Aug 8, 2014)

zuti car said:


> What I do not understand why is important did Leung Bik really existed or not?



Ancestry and lineage mean a lot to some people. Not so much to others. I find it interesting, but not surprising  that there is little information on this subject. More seems to be coming to light now that China has opened up and  so many people are visiting places like Fo'shan,  Ku-lo village and so forth. I just came across this:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.349128988508337.85727.118477494906822&type=3


Anyway, until the evidence is clearer, I'm sticking with Grandmaster Yip's account, just out of respect for tradition. Otherwise, I agree with _Zuti_, that what matters most is what you can do, not who your teacher's teacher's teacher was!!!

BTW, the original _Zuti Car_ (Huang Ti) was also mythological! LOL


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## zuti car (Aug 9, 2014)

geezer said:


> Ancestry and lineage mean a lot to some people. Not so much to others. I find it interesting, but not surprising  that there is little information on this subject. More seems to be coming to light now that China has opened up and  so many people are visiting places like Fo'shan,  Ku-lo village and so forth. I just came across this:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.349128988508337.85727.118477494906822&type=3
> 
> ...



I have seen this before, In the article I can see only claims, not a piece of real evidence .This article looks like some of thous  miracle cosmetics or diet products advertisements , they use some famous names and institutions to support their claims but never offer real references .  No one ever offered any document , anything beside Yip Man's story and I have no reason to believe in a story . Why there is no birth or death certificate , tax record , any written trace of Leung Bik during his supposed life span . That is strange because we have all that in his father's case . About photos , Leung Bik's photo I will not comment , there is no reference where it is from , who took , where , when and how so there is no way to check if the photo is authentic . If such things are hidden , then photo is  most probably a forgery .  Leung Jan's photo is same case as Leung Bik's with one more thing to be considered . It is obviously a gravestone photo , we know Leung Jan died at the beginning of the 20th Century and I am pretty sure people didn't put photos on the gravestones until much later period , also location of Leung Jan's grave is still a mystery . It is strange that we have his gravestone photo but still not know where the actual grave site is . This is only 5 minutes analysis , something that anyone can see . Maybe I put too much attention in this , especially because I do not care about Leung Bik at all , but I always feel sad when I see adult people take legends for truth . Anyway , I will not return to this again .And one more thing , I think Yip Man learned a lot if not most of his system from Yuen Kai San  
About (huang ti) my family name translated on Chinese is same huang as in huang di's name , who knows , maybe he is my great, great great...great grandfather .


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## geezer (Aug 9, 2014)

zuti car said:


> I have seen this before, In the article I can see only claims, not a piece of real evidence. ... Leung Jan's photo is same case as Leung Bik's with one more thing to be considered . It is obviously a gravestone photo , we know Leung Jan died at the beginning of the 20th Century and I am pretty sure people didn't put photos on the gravestones until much later period...



I really can't comment on this as "evidence". Hopefully the issue will be cleared up some day. 

Oh, by the way, years ago I visited the graves of my great-great grandparents outside the little little village in Texas they helped to found after coming to this country from Germany in the mid 19th century. They died in the late 1800s and their graves had photos on them.


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## zuti car (Aug 10, 2014)

geezer said:


> I really can't comment on this as "evidence". Hopefully the issue will be cleared up some day.
> 
> Oh, by the way, years ago I visited the graves of my great-great grandparents outside the little little village in Texas they helped to found after coming to this country from Germany in the mid 19th century. They died in the late 1800s and their graves had photos on them.



Photos like "Leung Jan's" or carved pictures ?


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