# Breakdown Of The SKK Katas



## MJS (Mar 26, 2007)

I've always felt that students will get more out of their kata practice if they understand the moves.  Simply running thru the moves without knowing what they are is in essence, learning only half the kata IMO.  What is the move?  Is it an armbar, wrist release, etc.  These are the types of things that the student needs to know.

I thought that we could start off with a kata, and give some examples of exactly what is being done.  

Lets start with 1 pinan, and build from there, seeing that this is a pretty basic kata.  

Now, when I first learned this kata, it was explained to me that we were just blocking kicks and counter punching.  So...turning to our left, left downward block, half moon forward and right punch.  Sure, that is one option, but that can't be the only one.  One that I thought of:

The opponent is standing in front of us, executing a left wrist grab with their left hand.  We begin to move our hand counter clock wise, counter grabbing their hand, assiting with our right on their elbow.  We turn to the left, bringing them into an arm bar, as we step forward executing a right punch to the head.  

A viable technique?  Possibly, but IMO, its something more than stating that all we're doing is blocking front kicks.

Any other suggestions?:ultracool 

Mike


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## DavidCC (Mar 26, 2007)

This has been on my mind for some time.

I started experimenting with different pieces of our basic forms - pinan 1-3, looking for other applications of the moves.

And I found some interesting stuff too.

But I realized that this was simply stuff I made up, and not some "secrets of the masters" hidden the form -  becasue the pinan were designed to be basic drills for school children!

So I stopped looking at them, and switched instead to the Katas created by Pesare/Gascon.

Lots more variey, lots of stuff to play with.  I found even more interesting ideas.  but again I have to question the validity of it, as opposed to going through this same exercise with forms that really DO have "hidden" levels of technique. (such as watch Mr. Oyata with Naihanchi)

So, I think this is an interesting exercise to get your student's to think freely and not be bound by technique.  But as far as finding anything special hidden in the pinan series... I don't know...

I hope that I am wrong about this...  

If you disagree, please, get deep on me


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## DavidCC (Mar 26, 2007)

MJS said:


> its something more than stating that all we're doing is blocking front kicks.
> 
> Any other suggestions?:ultracool
> 
> Mike


 
blocking body punches?


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 26, 2007)

MJS said:


> I've always felt that students will get more out of their kata practice if they understand the moves.  Simply running thru the moves without knowing what they are is in essence, learning only half the kata IMO.  What is the move?  Is it an armbar, wrist release, etc.  These are the types of things that the student needs to know.
> 
> I thought that we could start off with a kata, and give some examples of exactly what is being done.
> 
> ...



In practicing my forms - I learned all 5 Peians and both resulting Kankus. The first move from Peian 1 is the turn left, low block. I've seen it taught as both a low block for a kick and a middle block for a punch. I've also explored the possibility that it could be instead a downward outward backfist strike coupled with what in Kenpo we would call a "cover" instead of rotating into a "front stance", amongst other things.


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## kosho (Mar 26, 2007)

Take a deeper look into this form.   as you do the first movement . down block 1/2 moon and punch...  spin 180  and down block and 1/2 moon  and punch.

*NOW*  lets say you did the same thing this time you punch  just past the attackers punching arm as you spin and make the next move 180 spin you
are now going to throw the person as you make the move. 
because you are now in the exact same place just now are closer  and have the body angles to do so.   try it  you will see what i mean....
there are all kinds of throw in the forms we learned,  just never shown them but all of the hidden movements are there you just need to open the eyes,,,  and  that can really be hard at times,,, my 2 cents
Kosho


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## LawDog (Mar 26, 2007)

MJS,
The form has many key principles within it. I will first start with the footwork.
Halfmooning:
This footwork is not linear, it contains 2 small laterial movements. While you half moon towards your opponent you will shift towards one side of your opponents center line then back to your starting center line position. This will change the target doorways on both you and your opponent.
Pivoting:
A pivot is a two directional move. When you pivot you will move towards one direction and at the same time you will move towards one side.
*Example, a full pivot to the rear. The direction that you are facing is 12:00, execute a full pivot to the rear, you will move one zone forward towards the 06:00 position and a full zone to the side of the original 06:00 line.
Timing / Rhythm developement.
Depending on the system, either -
*The first block or strike should be completed when to moving foot roots.
*The first block or strike is released after the moving foot roots.
These timing motions should be constant throughout the form.
There's more, another time.
:ultracool


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2007)

Great replies! Keep them coming!   As I said, unfortunately, when I was first learning these katas, the breakdowns were never taught.  This is sad, because IMO, its like teaching the student half the material.  I took it upon myself to start breaking down some of the moves.  Later on, I was fortunate to come across an instructor that I trained with for a while (who's actually a member on this forum) and he was able to further breakdown the movements.

Lawdog: Great stuff! Thanks!  Looking forward to more. 

Mike


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## LawDog (Mar 27, 2007)

MJS,
Now add the exhale portion of the breathing into the timing/rhythm sequence.
:ultracool


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## graychuan (Mar 28, 2007)

Mutiple Attack Movement

Anyone ever notice that in 1st pinion one always turns into the 'middle' of the form when pivoting. If you visualize the 5 or 8 attackers( depending on how you look at it) you pretty much always pivot(90,180 or 270) so that the least amount of poeple(if any) are at your back and your area of vision always can scan the other potential attackers before you engage the next one in the form.


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2007)

Just a note:

You will notice some posts are missing.  I created a new thread here to continue the discussion of the history of SKK katas.  I'd like this thread to be reserved strictly for application of the various movements.

Thanks,

Mike


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## kidswarrior (Mar 31, 2007)

In keeping with Mike's returning this thread to technique/application focus, I started re-thinking Pinan 1 from the beginning (I don't even practice this anymore, but even so this is a good exercise for me). Don't know about other strains of SK, but I learned that the Pinans begin with forearms straight up meeting in the middle of the body, followed by a knuckle roll downward and ending with forearms basically in front of and parallel to legs. Anyone else do this?

Anyway, that's always bothered me. What's that all about? Well, just occured to me in other tech's that's a trap, so why not in Pinan 1 salute also. Example: this 'opening' is not the beginning at all, but a snapshot of the middle of a technique, as in: before form began, I kicked him in low trunk (groin/abdomen--anywhere below the waist), which bent him over. Then, his head is right there for me to trap with my 'salute', and the knuckle roll is me rolling his head to the ground.

Am I on a different planet here, or is this the kind of thing we want to explore? I don't expect all my ideas to survive under scrutiny, but maybe that's half the fun, eh? :wink2:


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 31, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> In keeping with Mike's returning this thread to technique/application focus, I started re-thinking Pinan 1 from the beginning (I don't even practice this anymore, but even so this is a good exercise for me). Don't know about other strains of SK, but I learned that the Pinans begin with forearms straight up meeting in the middle of the body, followed by a knuckle roll downward and ending with forearms basically in front of and parallel to legs. Anyone else do this?
> 
> Anyway, that's always bothered me. What's that all about? Well, just occured to me in other tech's that's a trap, so why not in Pinan 1 salute also. Example: this 'opening' is not the beginning at all, but a snapshot of the middle of a technique, as in: before form began, I kicked him in low trunk (groin/abdomen--anywhere below the waist), which bent him over. Then, his head is right there for me to trap with my 'salute', and the knuckle roll is me rolling his head to the ground.
> 
> Am I on a different planet here, or is this the kind of thing we want to explore? I don't expect all my ideas to survive under scrutiny, but maybe that's half the fun, eh? :wink2:


 
It can be a trap, that's one of the applications I have for that particular movement and there are others. The salutation for pinan#1 and #2 can be a defensive technique against a bear hug from the rear, with arms trapped. Here's how, step to the side slightly, lower your center of gravity, expand your chest to create a bit of space, use your arms to release or further loosen the grip. Turn 90 degrees and apply a hammer fist to the groin (this is seen as a block in most applications), turn another 90 degrees and deliver a front punch ... there, another possible technique. Yes, I turned an extra 90 degrees, but nowhere does it say that martial arts techniques need to be exact ... just my 2 cents.


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## kidswarrior (Mar 31, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> It can be a trap, that's one of the applications I have for that particular movement and there are others. The salutation for pinan#1 and #2 can be a defensive technique against a bear hug from the rear, with arms trapped. Here's how, step to the side slightly, lower your center of gravity, expand your chest to create a bit of space, use your arms to release or further loosen the grip. Turn 90 degrees and apply a hammer fist to the groin (this is seen as a block in most applications), turn another 90 degrees and deliver a front punch ... there, another possible technique. Yes, I turned an extra 90 degrees, but nowhere does it say that martial arts techniques need to be exact ... just my 2 cents.



Great interpretation!


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 31, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Great interpretation!


 
Here's another ... salutation. Turn 90 degrees counter-clockwise, passing through a cat stance, to face your opponent, step out with the left and apply a #8 block to a kick, trap the leg by continuing the blocking movement. You are now to the inside of your opponent. Right halfmoon in, either applying a punch, or placing your right foot behind the opponents left heel and applying a punch or simply a push to take the opponent off thier feet. I believe this is a more advanced movement, being that you are inside, a punch is coming and one of your hands/arms is tied up, you must move fast to apply this technique. I don't teach this in the early stages.


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## LawDog (Mar 31, 2007)

14_Kempo,
Are those from the FV system or new USSD system?


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 31, 2007)

LawDog said:


> 14_Kempo,
> Are those from the FV system or new USSD system?


 
I would have to say USSD, cause that's where I am now ... and to be completely honest, when I was studying previously, I didn't care what I was doing as far as forms went, I was just doing it. Now I take the time to not only ask the questions, but to tear down what I'm doing and why.

Hope that answers your question ...


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## LawDog (Mar 31, 2007)

14_Kempo
Yes it does, thanks. Keep up the good work.
:ultracool


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 2, 2007)

Here's another one that I thought was pretty cool ... Pinan #3 ... there is a part where a person turns to face 6 o'clock, bringing thier hands in crane's beaks back to protect the kidneys, then right front ball kick, turn 90 degrees ccw land in horse stance. Use wing block, draw to cat stance, lung out and strike simultaneously with right back two-knuckle to the face and left tiger claw to the groin.

Application for double crane's beaks at the kidneys: Think of someone behind you holding your wrists. Kick the person in front, pivot, blicking a strike also from the person in front. Then roll your hands out of the hold as you use that resistance to add striking force to the finishing simultaneous strike.

Hard to explain, hope that gives you a picture ... let me know.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 3, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> Here's another one that I thought was pretty cool ... Pinan #3 ... there is a part where a person turns to face 6 o'clock, bringing thier hands in crane's beaks back to protect the kidneys, then right front ball kick, turn 90 degrees ccw land in horse stance. Use wing block, draw to cat stance, lung out and strike simultaneously with right back two-knuckle to the face and left tiger claw to the groin.
> 
> Application for double crane's beaks at the kidneys: Think of someone behind you holding your wrists. Kick the person in front, pivot, blicking a strike also from the person in front. Then roll your hands out of the hold as you use that resistance to add striking force to the finishing simultaneous strike.
> 
> Hard to explain, hope that gives you a picture ... let me know.



No, you explained quite well. Good 'hidden/additional meaning' for the crane's beaks at that point, which never really made a lot of sense to me.


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 3, 2007)

Again, in Pinan#3, the portion just after the salutation and opening movements, facing 3 o'clock, feet together, cup and saucer on the right side. Attacker comes from your left. You step out with your left foot, delivering a left rolling backfist to the nose, right hand guards the left ribcage. Turn 90 degrees ccw and half moon in with right foot, apply a bridged spearhand plke to same attackers groin. With your right hand, sweep the attackers right ankle, pulling him off-balance, turn 270 degrees ccw,  moving the right foot, deliver a hammer fist to the attackers left temple. Again with the right foot, turn 90 degrees ccw applying a thrust punch to the groin. This is all done against a single opponent.


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 3, 2007)

Applicable to all katas (forms), I teach my students, that once they get to a certain level, to make the kata (form) thier own. What do I mean? Know what you are doing, know the bunkai, know how many opponents you are facing and set the pace as if you were really fighting through it. Also, lead with the eyes. This means, know when you are changing opponents and lead with your eyes. You need to see them first, then react and move. In other words, know it, see it, do it and others will see it. After all, other than a good workout and a solo practice session, forms are basically a performance ... put on a good show (tournament mentality).


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 4, 2007)

Bunkai for pinan #4, after the second head wrap, elbow strike to the face. Turn 135 degrees ccw, droplow, almost onto the right knee. Block #6 to clear and apply ridgehand strike to the groin. Here comes a double lapel grab. First scenario; opponent reaches with both hands to grab, you clear with basically open hand #1 and #2 blocks, grab his wrists and pull him into a front ball kick, driving him back then follow in with a twist stance, left behind right and applying a backfist to the nose to finish him. Second scenario; opponent reaches with both hands to grab, you clear with basically open hand #1 and #2 blocks, you grab his lapels with both hands, pull him into a right rising knee to the solar plexus, driving him back as you follow up with a right front kick, yes, same leg, driving him further back, then follow in with a twist stance, left behind right and applying a backfist to the nose to finish him.


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## DavidCC (Apr 5, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> Bunkai for pinan #4, after the second head wrap, elbow strike to the face. Turn 135 degrees ccw, droplow, almost onto the right knee. Block #6 to clear and apply ridgehand strike to the groin. Here comes a double lapel grab. First scenario; opponent reaches with both hands to grab, you clear with basically open hand #1 and #2 blocks, grab his wrists and pull him into a front ball kick, driving him back then follow in with a twist stance, left behind right and applying a backfist to the nose to finish him. Second scenario; opponent reaches with both hands to grab, you clear with basically open hand #1 and #2 blocks, you grab his lapels with both hands, pull him into a right rising knee to the solar plexus, driving him back as you follow up with a right front kick, yes, same leg, driving him further back, then follow in with a twist stance, left behind right and applying a backfist to the nose to finish him.


 
We do this just slightly different

the second elbow strike is to an attacker at my 3, the next attacker (upward block ridgehand) is at 1030 so I think that is the 135 degrees you describe.  

My interpretaion on this is that after the upward block/strike I grab his head (think Thai-stye clinch) pulling him into the knee to the body.  Once the knee makes contact that triggers an instep kick to the lower centerline or groin (it's sortof the equivalent of the 'elbow to the solarplexus, rolling hammer ot the groin', but with your leg). (For some reason we call that a "mantis kick" but for all I know that is a name one of the kids made up LOL).

After the kick we land in rt half moon to 1030, then we do a 'rolling trap' which I think is what you mean by 'you clear with basically open hand #1 and #2 blocks', clearing the hands, but we have no kick here or wrist grab, instead we go directly from the clearing to the twist w/ back fist.


Strictly speaking this "finishes" that attacker but when we are using multiple live attackers to practice these applications, I find it useful to follow thorugh out of the twist sance with a rt side kick, it _really_ finishes him and gives me an extra couple of feet to deal with the next guy coming from 4:30.
The next attacker is at 4:30... but when


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## kidswarrior (Apr 5, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> We do this just slightly different
> 
> the second elbow strike is to an attacker at my 3, the next attacker (upward block ridgehand) is at 1030 so I think that is the 135 degrees you describe.
> 
> ...



This is essentially the bunkai I learned, too, but 14 Kempo has some interesting options, as well. I like your 'added' instep kick and extra side kick to clear the 10:30 man. Those options are available in the form I learned, but never saw those applications.


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 5, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> We do this just slightly different the second elbow strike is to an attacker at my 3, the next attacker (upward block ridgehand) is at 1030 so I think that is the 135 degrees you describe.


 
Yes, that's it, 0300 to 1030 ... for some reason I like to use degrees, not sure why that is ... LOL ... I like the head grab you have, Muay Tai clinch, much better than the lapel grab ... thanks!


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## DavidCC (Apr 5, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, that's it, 0300 to 1030 ... for some reason I like to use degrees, not sure why that is ... LOL ... I like the head grab you have, Muay Tai clinch, much better than the lapel grab ... thanks!


 
the movements are very similar, but once you've actually clinched and knee'd someone successfully like that ...ooooo yeah... let's just say it's very "practical" 

the groin shot 'helps' them present their head for the clinch, left arm is up and ready following the "upward block"

regarding 3 vs 1030... the way we would describe it, the attackers are 135 degrees apart, but we don't really call that 135 degree turn since our stance is facing 12 while we deal with the attacker at 3.  I guess it is just as viable to say that while doing the backfist/elbow we are really in a side horse facing 3  so moving to a cat facing 1030 IS techncially a 135 degree turn... hmmm, as I wrote this paragraph I think I decided to change my mind and label this as the side horse and 135 degree turn


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 5, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> the movements are very similar, but once you've actually clinched and knee'd someone successfully like that ...ooooo yeah... let's just say it's very "practical"
> 
> the groin shot 'helps' them present their head for the clinch, left arm is up and ready following the "upward block"
> 
> regarding 3 vs 1030... the way we would describe it, the attackers are 135 degrees apart, but we don't really call that 135 degree turn since our stance is facing 12 while we deal with the attacker at 3. I guess it is just as viable to say that while doing the backfist/elbow we are really in a side horse facing 3  so moving to a cat facing 1030 IS techncially a 135 degree turn... hmmm, as I wrote this paragraph I think I decided to change my mind and label this as the side horse and 135 degree turn


 
Yes, it is sounding like there may be a slight diference here, we pivot in, squaring our hips on the elbow strike. This brings it in hard and straight to the face, a definate knockout blow. So, we are facing 0300 when the elbow hits. After the elbow, as we turn to 1030, we dip down under the oncoming strike deploying a #6 upward, openhand block and a right ridgehane hits the groin. Then we clear and strike with the knee. Not sure if it is too different, might just be how I'm writing it. But we definately turn from 0300 - 1030, which is 135 degrees.


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 9, 2007)

I know the pinans are taken mostly from Shotokan Heians ... 

Pinan #1 : Heian Shodan
Pinan #2 : Heian Nidan
Pinan #3 : Heian Sandan
Pinan #4 : Heian Yondan
Pinan #5 : Heian Godan

... obviously these forms have been altered a whole lot throughout the years. I've even heard that Nick Cerio developed pinan #2, but it looks as if it could certainly have come from Shotokan's Heian Nidan (modified of course).

At USSD these forms resemble the five animals as listed below ... 

Pinan #1 : Tiger
Pinan #2 : Dragon
Pinan #3 : Crane
Pinan #4 : Leopard
Pinan #5 : Snake

... granted these forms contain movements from other animals as well, but for the most part this is how USSD labels them. They can be done with various influences.

Question: 
Is it USSD that modified these forms, or do other SKK styles do the same, the forms as having the basic influences of the five animals?


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## RevIV (Apr 9, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> I know the pinans are taken mostly from Shotokan Heians ...
> 
> Pinan #1 : Heian Shodan
> Pinan #2 : Heian Nidan
> ...


 
Im going to have to say you are really reaching if you think 2 pinan looks like Heian Nidan.  This is the only Heian thats is required for rank at my school and i do not feel it resembles Prof. cerio's at all.  I never heard of the animal influences in the pinans until the USSD people spoke of them.  How are they explained to express the animals?  I could guess -- 1 for tiger -- moving forwards on the attack.  2 - dragon - up and down motion -- 3 for crane - cranes wing blocks -- 4 for leopard - the cat walk at the end -  5 for snake -- extended stances???  before this i have never really given it much thought.
Jesse


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## 14 Kempo (Apr 9, 2007)

RevIV said:


> Im going to have to say you are really reaching if you think 2 pinan looks like Heian Nidan. This is the only Heian thats is required for rank at my school and i do not feel it resembles Prof. cerio's at all. I never heard of the animal influences in the pinans until the USSD people spoke of them. How are they explained to express the animals? I could guess -- 1 for tiger -- moving forwards on the attack. 2 - dragon - up and down motion -- 3 for crane - cranes wing blocks -- 4 for leopard - the cat walk at the end - 5 for snake -- extended stances??? before this i have never really given it much thought.
> Jesse


 
Yeah, I know it's a reach, but the basic pattern is there. Anyway, yes, the explanations are as follows, along with others that I'm missing, Im sure ... 

Pinan#1: Tiger 
- Always pressing forward
- Powerful blocks and strikes
Pinan#2: Dragon 
- Rising and falling
- Whiping motions.
Pinan#3: Crane 
- Fluid/graceful motion
- Extended strikes
Pinan#4: Leopard 
- Striking from a distance
- Stalking
- Single strike-kill
- Will retreat to better its position.
Pinan#5: Snake 
- Low stances
- Drawing the opponent into strikes


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