# Is Taekwondo Closed-Minded?



## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 15, 2014)

I thought I'd start a fun discussion.  Do you see taekwondo instructors as being closed-minded, with only 1 "right" way of doing a technique?

I was watching the following video and thought that most tkd schools would say that his kick "without chambering" at 29 seconds is "WRONG", even though he is explicitly saying that it is faster (i.e., for speed).

My general viewpoint is that almost any technique can be done with different paths, with a trade-off between speed and power.  So for instance I am aware of why my sparring school wants me to throw a spinning hook kick with very little arc - the school favors speed over power, due to the focus on WTF point tournaments.

My first introduction to the concept of there being more than one "right" way was as a white belt.  Everyone had a fighting stance as instructed with one hand high and one hand low.  But a chinese student who had previously studied Chinese Martial Arts kept both hands high.  

I asked him why he didn't use the schools stance and his answer was, "In Canada, people only want to punch you in the head. So I block my head." I thought about that, and asked, "You said in Canada.  What about in Hong Kong?".  He explained, "Oh, in Honk Kong, they'll kick you in the balls, so I'd definitely keep a hand low there."

What are your thoughts - do tkd schools teach too often that there is only 1 "right" way, without talking about trade-offs?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 15, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> What are your thoughts - do tkd schools teach too often that there is only 1 "right" way, without talking about trade-offs?


I agree that there are more than 1 way to explain just a simple kick. A kick can be more than just a kick. A kick can be used to:

- cause damage,
- close the distance,
- set up a punch, a kick, or a throw.

If you use your kick to close the distance, or set up for something else, you may only want to apply 30% of your kicking power, the chambering won't be needed. The speed is more important than the power at that moment. After your have thrown your kick, you should land your foot where you want to land and you should not pull it back. For example, if you throw a low roundhouse kick at the inside of your opponent's leading leg, you can slide down your kicking leg along the back of his leg, hook your foot behind his ankle, and apply a scoop.


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## TrueJim (Dec 15, 2014)

Just the other day my instructor made a comment I'd never heard him make before: there's a way to do a kick for sparring, another way to do the same kick for demonstrations, another way to do the same kick for breaking, and another way to do the same kick for forms. I think his point was that in class we have been learning one "right way" to do each kick, but that as we become more advanced we'll realize there are subtle optimizations you'll want to make for the various different applications of the kick. (He's Korean so English is not his native tongue; sometimes it's difficult to be sure what he means -- I think that's what he was trying to say.)


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 15, 2014)

First, you're going to find that it is pretty much impossible to talk about "TKD schools" as if there was any universally common truth. There isn't.

I started training in 1968 or 1969. I was an Air Force brat at the time, so as you may imagine, I trained in more than a couple places, with more than a few instructors. I don't recall ever being told that there is only one way to do anything.

Yes, there is a particular and specific way to do every technique in forms, which are somewhat stylized. But even that will vary somewhat between different schools using the same forms.

In sparring or self defense, there are virtually unlimited ways to perform and apply every technique. Frankly, I'd question the competency of any instructor who claimed otherwise.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> I trained in more than a couple places, with more than a few instructors. I don't recall ever being told that there is only one way to do anything.


I was really confused at my first club as a white belt, about the "roundhouse".  The 3rd dan taught it as a dollyeo chuggi, hitting parallel to the ground.  Then when he was away, the first dan (a tournament competitor) told me I was doing it wrong and that it should be at 45 degrees (peat chuggi).  Finally I had to ask the 3rd dan when he came back, and the 3rd dan explained traditional vs sport!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 15, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I was really confused at my first club as a white belt, about the "roundhouse".  The 3rd dan taught it as a dollyeo chuggi, hitting parallel to the ground.  Then when he was away, the first dan (a tournament competitor) told me I was doing it wrong and that it should be at 45 degrees (peat chuggi).  Finally I had to ask the 3rd dan when he came back, and the 3rd dan explained traditional vs sport!



Both are useful. and both should be taught. I wouldn't even say it's traditional vs sport so much as power vs speed. Peat Chagi, especially from the front leg, is similar to the jab. Dollyo chagi, especially from the rear leg, is a finisher.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 16, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> First, you're going to find that it is pretty much impossible to talk about "TKD schools" as if there was any universally common truth. There isn't.
> .


  Exactly. People may be closed minded. The art is not.

IMO The "Standard" methods are there for reasons..
This is no different than many other athletic activities.
 They provide a method to measure what the student has achieved, both from understanding and performance.

They provide a firm foundation from which adaptations can be made.

Consider a sphere with a point in the center. That point is the standard technique. From that point moving outward 3 dimensionaly 360 degrees are the ways the technique can be altered as circumstances warrant.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 16, 2014)

TrueJim said:


> Just the other day my instructor made a comment I'd never heard him make before: there's a way to do a kick for sparring, another way to do the same kick for demonstrations, another way to do the same kick for breaking, and another way to do the same kick for forms. I think his point was that in class we have been learning one "right way" to do each kick, but that as we become more advanced we'll realize there are subtle optimizations you'll want to make for the various different applications of the kick. (He's Korean so English is not his native tongue; sometimes it's difficult to be sure what he means -- I think that's what he was trying to say.)



Your instructor is a smart man.


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## Metal (Dec 16, 2014)

I would say that a lot of times those who're doing it 'wrong' are the closed-minded persons who won't accept any of the 'right' ways to do it. 

And yeah, while there are definitely wrong ways to do certain techniques there are also several right ways to do them.

Over here in Germany there are a lot of older instructors with a Chang Hon TKD background, who received a Kukkiwon Dan at one point (sometimes du to the fact that they didn't like the changes in ITF Taekwondo when the Tul were introduced) but wouldn't adapt to the Kukkiwon style of TKD. They'd just change the forms, but would keep everything else the way they learned it and pass this on to their students. The results are Poomsae like this:






Within their world of TKD everything in that 'Koryo' is done the right way. I'm fine with people practising different styles of TKD, but  when it comes to this Koryo Poomsae I'd say that nearly everything in that form is done wrong. Yet I wouldn't say that I'm a closed minded person.

I mean what would a Chang Hon or ITF TKDin say if I'd perform a Chang Hon form or the ITF Tul in the Kukkiwon style?

When it comes to competition techniques I'd say the right technique is the one that scores. ;-)


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 16, 2014)

my first instructor never said there was only one way he simply said "If I did not teach it I don't want to see it"
It was always his way, the way he thought he was instructed , was the only correct way.  
That changed when he wanted more rank and started changing systems to get rank.
But NO I don't think there is any 1 way to do something and that is the only correct way


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 16, 2014)

Is his side kick correct by using the TKD standard?

1. raise up your leg,
2. pull your knee back as far away from your opponent as possible,
3. point your knee, foot, your opponent in a straight line,
4. kick out,
5. pull your kick back, but still remain your knee, foot, your opponent in a straight line,
6. point your foot down,
7. drop your kicking leg.

Which steps are

- absolute needed?
- nice to have?
- OK to skip it?


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## andyjeffries (Dec 17, 2014)

Metal said:


> I mean what would a Chang Hon or ITF TKDin say if I'd perform a Chang Hon form or the ITF Tul in the Kukkiwon style?



The funny thing is I've been wanting to see this very thing for years.  I'd love for a really great Kukkiwon Taekwondoin do one of the best ITF forms.  I find ITF style movements weird (as a dyed in the wool Kukkiwon standards evangelist), so I'd love to see how their pattern looks done in a Kukkiwon style so I could form an opinion of the pattern itself rather than the patterns plus the movement style.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 17, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is his side kick correct by using the TKD standard?
> 
> ]




"The " standard?


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2014)

I'm not sure why a kick clearly labelled Sanshou would be held up for examination by TKD people?


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 17, 2014)

simple by your standards would that kick by correct if one of your students or a TKD student did it that way?  It is so a comparison can be made and analyzed


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## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> simple by your standards would that kick by correct if one of your students or a TKD student did it that way?  It is so a comparison can be made and analyzed




If people make the comparison  what does that have to do with the OP? I'm puzzled by this.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 17, 2014)

Tez  someone that is not a TKD practitioner wants to know how this kick compares with similar TKD kicks.  Is it close to what is done by various TKD people  and why it would be incorrect or correct. Was it chambered the way it is done in TKD, was the body in the correct position, etc.  This gives those of us that may not study or have not studied TDK  a reference to go by.
It also gives TKD people a visual to compare and say yes we do it this way because or no we do not.  A side kick is a side kick unless you do not think it is because your doing one differently in your organization and have reasons to not call it one


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 17, 2014)

The side kick as performed in the sparring match, I would say is fine. Nothing wrong with it by our standards, because it's used effectively under the specific circumstances under which it's applied. As I said, there is a stylized "perfect world" sidekick used in forms, and near-infinite variations for the near-infinite circumstances for application.

As far as the poomsae video... there's lots that would be considered wrong if that form were done in our school. Starting from the beginning...
Ready stance: tongmilgi joonbe seogi should be done with the palms parallel, facing towards each other, not triangulated.
Back stance/middle knifehand block: Weight should be on the rear leg, not centered. Blocking arm should be bent, not extended.
Double kick: those are supposed to be sidekicks, not roundhouses.
Kiap: KKW has it the same place she does it. Our school has it one step later, on the knee break.
After the targeted punch to the hand, the hands should be pulled back during the sidekick, not pulled back during the step. And the step should be in front, not behind.
There are plenty of other issues, but that about covers most of the major ones.
These issues, however, are all stylistic, not functional. While we teach the "ideal" backstance as having most of the weight on the rear leg, in application the weight will be... wherever it needs to be. Double roundhouses are every bit as useful as double sidekicks. And a step behind sidekick is every bit as useful as a step in front.
If this is how they teach the form in their system, that's fine. Forms are a teaching tool, and if this works for them, then that's peachy. It wouldn't score well at a WTF-sponsored competition, but might do very well at an open tourney.


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## Thousand Kicks (Dec 17, 2014)

I think it is important for beginners to be shown one way of doing a technique. I also believe they should be shown the version of the technique that is the most "classic". When first learning techniques in any style you have to start somewhere and overloading with information usually results in confusion. 

So, I think it's best to start with "This is a roundhouse kick, and this is not" Once a student has gained a certain level of competancy you can then say "These are the variations of the roundhouse kick and this is why they exist" That one statement could keep somebody occupied for months.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 17, 2014)

Metal said:


> Over here in Germany there are a lot of older instructors with a Chang Hon TKD background, who received a Kukkiwon Dan at one point (sometimes du to the fact that they didn't like the changes in ITF Taekwondo when the Tul were introduced) but wouldn't adapt to the Kukkiwon style of TKD. They'd just change the forms, but would keep everything else the way they learned it and pass this on to their students. The results are Poomsae like this:



As an example of Chang Hun TKD body mechanics that was ... not good. Many things done incorrectly from a stylistic perspective; knife-hand guarding blocks, side kicks, etc.



> Within their world of TKD everything in that 'Koryo' is done the right way. I'm fine with people practising different styles of TKD, but  when it comes to this Koryo Poomsae I'd say that nearly everything in that form is done wrong. Yet I wouldn't say that I'm a closed minded person.



I'd say the same thing, and I'm an ITF practitioner. That was not a good example of a Chang Hun stylist doing a KKW form, IMNSHO.



> I mean what would a Chang Hon or ITF TKDin say if I'd perform a Chang Hon form or the ITF Tul in the Kukkiwon style?



Depends on the person, I'd imagine. There are some things that each art (Chang Hun Taekwon-Do and KKW TKD) simply do differently for which there simply aren't simple one-to-one correspondences. We simply don't have an equivalent of the KKW apseogi, for example. Which means we couldn't even really do movement 1 of Taegeuk 1.

Pax,

Chris


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## Buka (Dec 17, 2014)

In my experience, styles aren't closed-minded, some dojos or groups of dojos might be. But that isn't our loss.....well, you know the rest.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 2, 2015)

I find Grandmaster Hwang Jang-Lee (9th dan ITF TKD, 9th Dan Tang Soo Do MDK) to have excellent reference form in the 1981 classic "art of high impact kicking" {re-released as a dvd in 2003} for both demonstrations, and fighting application. He goes up to 4th dan kicks.

Skip the cinematic intro by jumping to minute mark 2:38







I would love to see this reference work updated with background music and narration for our present 2015 era.

His kicks are very impressive, but his teaching ability is amazing.

He can take a 40 year old woman... and in 6 months, working at a pace of 4 hours a day, produce a student who can successfully test out and receive Kukkiwon O dan (오단): fifth-degree black belt certification, in the Taekwondo Kukkiwon in Seoul.

720 hours, that's how long it takes him to have a student fully prepared to test at HQ for 5th.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 2, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I find Grandmaster Hwang Jang-Lee (9th dan ITF TKD, 9th Dan Tang Soo Do MDK) to have excellent reference form in the 1981 classic "art of high impact kicking" {re-released as a dvd in 2003} for both demonstrations, and fighting application. He goes up to 4th dan kicks.
> 
> Skip the cinematic intro by jumping to minute mark 2:38
> 
> ...


I love the hair-cut. I haven't seen that vid in a while. It's kind of interesting, though there are some pretty awkward and impractical looking kick variations on it. 

Regarding preparing a student for a fifth Dan Kukkiwon test, I'm pretty sure a lot of people could get someone ready if they had four hours a day for six months to prepare.  The test is fairly simple and straightforward: basic techniques, two poomse, about one minute of sparring, and breaking. If I "taught" the test, I believe I could get someone to pass with 720 hours prep time. They'd have to pass the written exam, too, but it's also not that tough to prepare for (with a bit of Korean language ability).


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## TSDTexan (Aug 3, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I love the hair-cut. I haven't seen that vid in a while. It's kind of interesting, though there are some pretty awkward and impractical looking kick variations on it.
> 
> Regarding preparing a student for a fifth Dan Kukkiwon test, I'm pretty sure a lot of people could get someone ready if they had four hours a day for six months to prepare.  The test is fairly simple and straightforward: basic techniques, two poomse, about one minute of sparring, and breaking. If I "taught" the test, I believe I could get someone to pass with 720 hours prep time. They'd have to pass the written exam, too, but it's also not that tough to prepare for (with a bit of Korean language ability).




This was not just preparing someone to go from 4th to 5th Dan..... Not at all, I am talking about 10geups, and 5 Dan levels.

Now that should impress you.

Of course, this was all 1 on 1 instruction.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 3, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> This was not just preparing someone to go from 4th to 5th Dan..... Not at all, I am talking about 10geups, and 5 Dan levels.
> 
> Now that should impress you.
> 
> Of course, this was all 1 on 1 instruction.


I was talking about taking someone off the street, not just one Dan level.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I thought I'd start a fun discussion.  Do you see taekwondo instructors as being closed-minded, with only 1 "right" way of doing a technique?
> 
> I was watching the following video and thought that most tkd schools would say that his kick "without chambering" at 29 seconds is "WRONG", even though he is explicitly saying that it is faster (i.e., for speed).
> 
> ...



I think when it comes to stanced and cover, it should always depend from the actual situation.

I mean, when you face a boxer, sure, cover up your head, when you face some random street-thug attacking you,also cover your head, since most people are always trying to go for your head, if you face a karateka who is trying to kick you over and over again, have your cover a bit lowered to protect your rips,solarplexus.

A cover has to be flexible,moving, not always clued to the same spot.

" Be the water ".

I come from Kickboxing, and when I joined a Karate class, it was totally weird and unatural to me to always have the cover lowered, after I kicked a couple of my opponents in to the head, they also noticed that the random guy from kickboxing actual has a clue and knows how to cover himself, so these black-belts copied my style.

What I am trying to say is, do what is appropiate. If your instructor is telling you to have the cover low when facing somebody who is going for your head, I would leave this school because it would be total garbage.


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## chrispillertkd (Aug 3, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I find Grandmaster Hwang Jang-Lee (9th dan ITF TKD, 9th Dan Tang Soo Do MDK) to have excellent reference form in the 1981 classic "art of high impact kicking" {re-released as a dvd in 2003} for both demonstrations, and fighting application. He goes up to 4th dan kicks.



I'd be very interested in knowing when/by who he got promoted to 9th dan ITF. He's not listed on any of the three main ITF groups websites and they are all very sparing when it comes to awarding 9th dan. Gen. Choi didn't promote anyone to 9th dan until 1997 (GM Rhee, Ki Ha was the first ITF 9th dan after Gen. Choi himself) and the video is listed as being from 1981.

Pax,

Chris


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2015)

Taekwondo is not closed minded. It's just that the training is for a different purpose. Most Taekwondo schools today teach for sporting purposes so it's not the same style of old.  Unfortunately in the US. there are too many bad Taekwondo schools that give the impression that people can use it to defend themselves, even though the instructor was never teaching it for self-defense.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 3, 2015)

chrispillertkd said:


> I'd be very interested in knowing when/by who he got promoted to 9th dan ITF. He's not listed on any of the three main ITF groups websites and they are all very sparing when it comes to awarding 9th dan. Gen. Choi didn't promote anyone to 9th dan until 1997 (GM Rhee, Ki Ha was the first ITF 9th dan after Gen. Choi himself) and the video is listed as being from 1981.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



He achieved his 7th _dan_ black belt, In 1965 at age 21.
In 1965 Hwang was drafted into the army, after weeks of basic training, he was sent to teach Tae Kwan Do to over 1,000 military students.

Already a 7th dan black-belt by this time, Hwang quickly caught the eye of his high ranking officers.
Which led to him being sent to Vietnam to train American, and Vietnamese soldiers.

One day Hwang was challenged to a fight whilst teaching by a south Vietnamese knife fighter. The fight lasted around 30 seconds with a kick landing to the head which knocked his challenger out, and subsequently killed him.

The knife expert challenged Lee to a fight, with Lee repeatedly refusing.

In an act of self-defense, Lee ended the duel with one roundhouse kick to the assailant’s head; the villain was dead about 20 seconds later. Lee was actually accused of murder, but due to eyewitness reports was eventually cleared.

In January 2003, Hwang received his 9th _dan_ black belt in Taekwondo.


As for being spareing , I agree, Chuck Norris, the first Westerner to get 8th Dan back, is still 8th. And he got 8th in the 1960s.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 3, 2015)

[/QUOTE]As for being spareing , I agree, Chuck Norris, the first Westerner to get 8th Dan back, is still 8th. And he got 8th in the 1960s.[/QUOTE]

This was an error, Chuck got his 8th in 1990.

Russian leader Vladimir Putin, on a visit to South Korea, was honored with a ninth-degree black belt from the president of the World Taekwondo Federation — ranking him a notch higher than Norris.

Putin, a martial-arts enthusiast, was humbled by the honor.

“I’m not sure if I deserve this,” said Putin, a former KGB agent, after receiving the honor. “Let’s call it our campaign to popularize this wonderful martial art. Russia will do its best to contribute to its popularity at home.”

The step from 8th to 9th is more political than anything else.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2015)

Well, no, Putin was given a meaningless honorary rank. It's pretty silly, I think, to compare honorary rank to earned rank. Especially when it's from a group (the WTF) that doesn't actually issue any REAL rank.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 3, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> He achieved his 7th _dan_ black belt, In 1965 at age 21.
> In 1965 Hwang was drafted into the army, after weeks of basic training, he was sent to teach Tae Kwan Do to over 1,000 military students.
> 
> Already a 7th dan black-belt by this time, Hwang quickly caught the eye of his high ranking officers.
> ...


What is your source for this story?


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## TSDTexan (Aug 3, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> What is your source for this story?



Hwang Hang Lee, in a few interviews.
His detainment is a matter of record with the government. 

You can do a  FOIR request if you want with the US Government.
His testimony is good enough for me.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 3, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I was talking about taking someone off the street, not just one Dan level.



Then you are a superior instructor and my hats off to you.
My problem is finding students willing to train non stop for four hours every day. And a editing of teaching methods/lesson plans to handle a four hour format.

My question is how do you get enough body conditioning in that 720 hours over Six months.

Another challenge would be the waiver of time in rank. Some folks would have an issue with a student becoming a 6month 5th Dan in TKD because of traditions based bias.




Jaeimseu said:


> I was talking about taking someone off the street, not just one Dan level.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 3, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Then you are a superior instructor and my hats off to you.
> My problem is finding students willing to train non stop for four hours every day. And a editing of teaching methods/lesson plans to handle a four hour format.
> 
> My question is how do you get enough body conditioning in that 720 hours over Six months.
> ...


It would take a student with plenty of free-time and motivation, but I think it would be quite possible to train specifically for the test in that time frame and not look totally out of place. As I said before, the test is not all that difficult. 

If that story is factual, it probably cost someone a lot of money and/or favors to bypass the time in rank (or it was a long time ago and there was a demand for an instructor somewhere). Personally, I wouldn't tell anyone if I trained someone to be an instructor in six months. I wouldn't want to be the student of an instructor with six months experience. 

I find it more likely that the story has been exaggerated.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2015)

I think it's entirely possible to train a person with a fair bit of innate ability to pass the physical test in this time period. 
I do not think they will have any real understanding, though. It'll just be a series of movements.  


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 3, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Hwang Hang Lee, in a few interviews.
> His detainment is a matter of record with the government.
> 
> You can do a  FOIR request if you want with the US Government.
> His testimony is good enough for me.


I expect this story, too, has been embellished over time. If he instantly killed someone with a round kick to the head, it was a fluke. I'd find it more believable if his opponent fell down and died due to hitting his head on the ground. Or maybe he knocked a guy out and over the years the story changed. The problem with stories like that is that it's difficult to confirm one way or the other. 

It's a great story, but I remain skeptical.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 4, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> In January 2003, Hwang received his 9th _dan_ black belt in Taekwondo.
> 
> .



Mr. Spiller inquired as to what ITF org. promoted him?

FYI General Choi issued "Special 9th Dan Promotions"  To Bob Wall, Chuck Norris and one other.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 4, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, no, Putin was given a meaningless honorary rank. It's pretty silly, I think, to compare honorary rank to earned rank. Especially when it's from a group (the WTF) that doesn't actually issue any REAL rank.



Real rank. While it is true that ranks do exist, ever since Dr Jigoro Kano, I view them as stepping stones on the journey.

It is also true that honerary rank is not earned rank.

However, I do not think it is silly to compare an unearned 9th to an earned 8th.

The reason I say that is the 5 Kwan founders, as well as the 4 recognized annex Kwan founders were pretty much reciprocal in calling each other Grandmaster/Founder.
None of these founders earned 9th degrees in their own arts.

But today we do it different...

Take for example Dear Chuck. He is a 9th in TSD, and after working and getting Dan ranks in a few other styles, he creates Chun Kuk Do. He is automatically a tenth.

He knows all the curriculum for his art, but he doesn't have to earn his belts in the art, level by level within that art.

If anything, he is just like a transfer student, who's credits are recognized as valid, in that new artform.

This however wasn't the case of the founders.
None of them were earned eighth or nineth Dans.

They mutually bestowed and recognized each other as such, because of their large student bodies, and for political reasons.

This little historical fact, is swept under the rug... Bad form to bring it up... Lost Face and all.

Therortically, In order to issue a promotion one should be of a higher rank or at least wind up being equal to the recipient.

Unless the determination is by democratic process of Yudansha from many arts. Like a kukkiwon.

Except there was no kukkiwon to bestow recognition of Sokeship upon the 5/9 Kwan founders. So, the cart is before the horse.

The irony of it as a TSD guy, is that the MDK has set their time in rank requirements for 9th dan in Subahkdo so high (57 years consecutive), that it would have been impossible for Hwang Kee to be recognized today by that standard. Even if He were a 9th in his other styles that He used for the founding of his art.

Which brings me back to my statement, "However, I do not think it is silly to compare an unearned 9th to an earned 8th"

World Taekwondo Headquarters

The 9th requirement are forms, time in previous rank, age, and a thesis paper.
So the real difference between an earned 8th and earned 9th is political. You could have a pair of twins make it to 8th together, age to the point where they meet the Age requirements, both master their forms, write excellent papers..
One passes, and because of a no vote, the other doesn't.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 4, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> Mr. Spiller inquired as to what ITF org. promoted him?
> 
> FYI General Choi issued "Special 9th Dan Promotions"  To Bob Wall, Chuck Norris and one other.



What date did the promotion happen?
I am waiting for an email back from SBN Norris to confirm.

News to me, and most web references have not been updated to reflect this.

I only know the date, I have someone looking into which ORG certified the 9th on Hwang Jang Lee.

My gut feeling says he was certified by the Tae Kwon Do - Moo Duk Kwan under the General Federation instead of the Kukkiwon.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 4, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> It would take a student with plenty of free-time and motivation, but I think it would be quite possible to train specifically for the test in that time frame and not look totally out of place. As I said before, the test is not all that difficult.
> 
> If that story is factual, it probably cost someone a lot of money and/or favors to bypass the time in rank (or it was a long time ago and there was a demand for an instructor somewhere). Personally, I wouldn't tell anyone if I trained someone to be an instructor in six months. I wouldn't want to be the student of an instructor with six months experience.
> 
> I find it more likely that the story has been exaggerated.



Ehhhhh, well it came directly from Hwang Hang Lee's mouth during an interview. He was serious, and I doubt it was exaggerated. People do boast of their accomplishments.

I doubt that given his high esteem and acclaim, that he really has to embellish the truth. He often busts fake movie martial arts. He is more than cogent in discerning fake crap from real fighting art. TKD and TSD are something he is passionate about, and probably a perfectionist with.

If He said He did it, He is one of the few people who's word I take for granted, with regard to TKD/TSD.

The Lady now owns and runs a TKD school in Germany. I for one wouldn't mind training under her, just to see if I could learn how she was trained by Hwang Jang Lee, and learn how to be a more efficient instructor, with a suitable student.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 4, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it's entirely possible to train a person with a fair bit of innate ability to pass the physical test in this time period.
> I do not think they will have any real understanding, though. It'll just be a series of movements.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.



My question is are the series of movements fully burned into muscle memory, and can she teach the motions successfully to another?

To the same level as she has?

IMHO,
The philosophy and mental fundamentals are ongoing and lifelong, and physical fundamentals at a certain point become a process of refining what one truely possesses (mastery) rather than learning and acquiring what is set before them.


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## Chrisoro (Aug 4, 2015)

Metal said:


> Over here in Germany there are a lot of older instructors with a Chang Hon TKD background, who received a Kukkiwon Dan at one point (sometimes du to the fact that they didn't like the changes in ITF Taekwondo when the Tul were introduced) but wouldn't adapt to the Kukkiwon style of TKD. They'd just change the forms, but would keep everything else the way they learned it and pass this on to their students. The results are Poomsae like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, that was weird!

If I had performed Koryo like that, I would definately have failed my 1st. dan grading.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 4, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> My question is are the series of movements fully burned into muscle memory, and can she teach the motions successfully to another?



Doubtful, and extremely doubtful, in my opinion.
Teaching the movements is relatively simple. Understanding the principles taught by the movements is an entirely different thing.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 4, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> What date did the promotion happen?
> I am waiting for an email back from SBN Norris to confirm.



I will have to check my ITF newsletters and get back to you. (I expect yopu are referring to the Chuck Norris "Special promotion".


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## Gnarlie (Aug 4, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> Wow, that was weird!
> 
> If I had performed Koryo like that, I would definately have failed my 1st. dan grading.


I'd fail green belt for a swung side kick like that. Actually painful to watch.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 4, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I'd fail green belt for a swung side kick like that. Actually painful to watch.



A full critique of that form would be a time consuming task...
Even the ready stance was incorrect. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 4, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> A full critique of that form would be a time consuming task...
> Even the ready stance was incorrect.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


There is nothing correct there, even my GF (no TKD experience) just watched it, and said it looks like what she would do if she had practiced with me for a week.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 4, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> There is nothing correct there, even my GF (no TKD experience) just watched it, and said it looks like what she would do if she had practiced with me for a week.



I wouldn't say there was "nothing" correct...
Her foot position in tongmilge joonbi seogi is correct.
But there's certainly lots to work on. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 4, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I wouldn't say there was "nothing" correct...
> Her foot position in tongmilge joonbi seogi is correct.
> But there's certainly lots to work on.
> 
> ...


Ok, some things are correct but they are in the minority.

Most of all, it's the general posture that grates, her shoulders are up around her ears and there is no stability.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 4, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Ok, some things are correct but they are in the minority.
> 
> Most of all, it's the general posture that grates, her shoulders are up around her ears and there is no stability.



It's also a matter of how she's been taught. If she's been taught that dwit seogi is that long, with a 50/50 balance, then it's going to be "wrong" to those who follow the KKW standard. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 4, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's also a matter of how she's been taught. If she's been taught that dwit seogi is that long, with a 50/50 balance, then it's going to be "wrong" to those who follow the KKW standard.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


I can appreciate that people teach things differently, but there's  a common thread throughout. e.g. That shoulder up posture is incorrect wherever you come from. As is the general wobbliness, that side kick and the targets for many of the movements.

Turns out the club's Kukkiwon registered and she is a 4th Dan. Disappointing.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 4, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> I will have to check my ITF newsletters and get back to you. (I expect yopu are referring to the Chuck Norris "Special promotion".


Yes indeed


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 4, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Yes indeed


I will have to check my ITF newsletters and get back to you. (I expect yopu are referring to the Chuck Norris "Special promotion".
Click to expand...
Yes indeed

OOOPS I stand Corrected. It was 8th Dan Promo
ITF Newsletter April 2000
"VIII Dan
April 13 -  Chuck Norris, Bob Chaney, Bob Wall - USA   ..."

The mind is the second thing to go.  - Sorry for the mis info.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 5, 2015)

On topic:

I see two sides to this.

Firstly, it's great to have a highly defined standard for the purposes of teaching the base skill set in order to avoid confusion and to promote uniformity.

Secondly, once the standard is learned and understood, then it is highly beneficial to explore other forms of TKD and other martial arts to see how many ways there are to skin that cat. I find this brings a much deeper understanding of the reasons why the standard is the way it is.

I'd also say there is such a thing as incorrect according to my first point. And although this next thing obviously involves some subjectivity - there are some things I see that just go against all the basic principles of movement as I understand them. As an example of this, I would cite those WMAA clips that sometimes get posted here: careless, rushed, uncontrolled, tense movement at the cost of speed, power and completion.

That's part of what I see as being wrong in the Koryo clip - tension and lack of control, and physically incorrect / incomplete movements in relation to what the form prescribes - the overall impression of the resulting form screams lack of understanding. 

I think this particularly applies to the Taeguek and Black Belt Poomsae of KKW TKD. The organisation that created the forms is still in existence and some of the people who contributed to their creation are still alive. The forms and standards for their performance are well documented, so there are few excuses for performing them any other way. Some other examples of what I view as incorrect:


























Taeguek Four Sa Chong - YouTube

Taegeuk Pil Chong - YouTube Pil Chong?? Does the Chung Do Kwan have no link to Korea in the US?

Koryo Form Poomse For Taekwondo - Basic Version - YouTube

I would call that a catalogue of errors and misunderstanding. If that makes me closed minded, then I guess OK, I'm closed minded, with regard to what I view as my standard. However, I am open minded with regard to understanding why people train the way they do. Each of these people in the clips has been taught to do things that way.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 5, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> On topic:
> 
> I see two sides to this.
> 
> ...


I liken it to learning a language. The people in the videos have highly accented taekwondo, at best. At worst, they are substituting incorrect stances or techniques or just doing it wrong. The interesting thing is that all of them are likely convinced that their way IS the standard.


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## Chrisoro (Aug 5, 2015)

Yeah. I wonder what would happen if someone who follows the Kukkiwon standard correctly, came to one of the clubs featured in the videos above, and performed the same forms. Would they be "corrected"? How would the people in the club then respond, if he then showed them videos of how the masters from Kukkiwon themselves do the forms? Would they still be in denial? Would they deny that they were afflicted with KKW? Or would they in some way claim that the KKW masters were doing the form wrong?


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 5, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> .... The interesting thing is that all of them are likely convinced that their way IS the standard.



That is what so sad. Not limited to KKW System or even to TKD. People who never get out of their own little world or MA Universe to compare what they are doing.  In some cases listening to instructors who tell them that experiencing or even watching other stuff is disloyal.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 5, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I liken it to learning a language. The people in the videos have highly accented taekwondo, at best. At worst, they are substituting incorrect stances or techniques or just doing it wrong. The interesting thing is that all of them are likely convinced that their way IS the standard.


I agree with that analogy. When learning a foreign language, there is a level below which intelligibility is lost, where native speakers of the language cannot decipher what is being said. I'd put some of these in that category.  You can recognise which form it is supposed to be, but there is such a strong accent and so many errors that even if you know the form, it is difficult to recognise the individual movements in some cases. 

The thing that is missing in all cases is spirit - I can live with a few dodgy motions or mistakes if the overall spirit is good, but each of these, especially the women, look like they are just going through the motions. One of them is looking at the ground the whole time. It saddens me that these people are all black belt instructors. Where is the finesse?


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## Gnarlie (Aug 5, 2015)

Short answer:

Is Taekwondo closed minded? No

Are people closed minded? Generally yes.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 5, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> Would they deny that they were afflicted with KKW



I think that might be an autocorrect, but afflicted with KKW quite well describes the situation I am in.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 5, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> That is what so sad. Not limited to KKW System or even to TKD. People who never get out of their own little world or MA Universe to compare what they are doing.  In some cases listening to instructors who tell them that experiencing or even watching other stuff is disloyal.


Yes. If it sometimes seems like people here at MT can butt heads and be a bit stubborn, think of all those people out there who aren't online exploring other's opinions and challenging their own. Scary.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 5, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Yes. If it sometimes seems like people here at MT can butt heads and be a bit stubborn, think of all those people out there who aren't online exploring other's opinions and challenging their own. Scary.



I think people who did one and the same martial art their whole life, tend to be scared of other martial arts. I mean more in the way to maybe get disappointed by their own martial art.

I know a couple of Wing-Tsun instructors who keep telling after 15-20 years of practising Wing-Tsun, that they do not want sparring because Wing-Tsun would be too deadly, these are usually the same people who claim that a martial art that doesn't take 10 years to actually learn, is not effective.

The people who know what is actually going on and seriously respect other martial arts are " mostly " ( not always ) people who have been doing many different martial arts over the years. 

it's like with food, people who tried many different foods, even foods that they did not know before, are much more open and understanding when it comes to eating habits, than people who were raised with eating the same range of food their whole life and don't want to try something new, these people usually also claim that stuff that is different, would not taste, without even trying it.

It's exactly the same with martial arts.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 5, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> I think people who did one and the same martial art their whole life, tend to be scared of other martial arts. I mean more in the way to maybe get disappointed by their own martial art.
> 
> I know a couple of Wing-Tsun instructors who keep telling after 15-20 years of practising Wing-Tsun, that they do not want sparring because Wing-Tsun would be too deadly, these are usually the same people who claim that a martial art that doesn't take 10 years to actually learn, is not effective.
> 
> ...


I don't find that at all, but maybe the people I train with are more open minded than most. Who knows....


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 5, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> I liken it to learning a language. The people in the videos have highly accented taekwondo, at best. At worst, they are substituting incorrect stances or techniques or just doing it wrong. The interesting thing is that all of them are likely convinced that their way IS the standard.


I thought it was just me and I don't even study Taekwondo, but I do know the purpose of a bow stance and when it's too wide.


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## chrispillertkd (Aug 5, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> What date did the promotion happen?
> I am waiting for an email back from SBN Norris to confirm.
> 
> News to me, and most web references have not been updated to reflect this.
> ...



Why would you (and the video) then claim that he's an ITF 9th dan?

Pax,

Chris


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 5, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I don't find that at all, but maybe the people I train with are more open minded than most. Who knows....



Maybe it depends also from the martial art they actually train.


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## Gnarlie (Aug 5, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Maybe it depends also from the martial art they actually train.



Or maybe qualities like open or closed mindedness are qualities of people rather than arts?


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 5, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Maybe it depends also from the martial art they actually train.



Or (as most people will realize already) being open- or close-minded is a personality trait, not one that is attributable to any martial art.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 5, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Maybe it depends also from the martial art they actually train.





Dirty Dog said:


> Or (as most people will realize already) being open- or close-minded is a personality trait, not one that is attributable to any martial art.



So, JohnnyEnglish, you clicked "Disagree" on this. Can you provide an explanation why you disagree with the statement that open- or close-mindedness is a personality trait?

Or are you just so close-minded that you cannot accept that possibility that your statement is wrong?


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## Tez3 (Aug 5, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Or maybe qualities like open or closed mindedness are qualities of people rather than arts?




I would agree with this and add that closed and open minded people tend to find others like themselves to associate with.


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## TrueJim (Aug 5, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Or maybe qualities like open or closed mindedness are qualities of people rather than arts?



Personally, I find that there are really only two kinds of people in the world. Those who categorize people, and those who don't.


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## Tez3 (Aug 5, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Personally, I find that there are really only two kinds of people in the world. Those who categorize people, and those who don't.



Like there are three types of people who can do maths, those that can and those that can't..............


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## Gnarlie (Aug 6, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Like there are three types of people who can do maths, those that can and those that can't..............


There are two types of people in this world, those that finish what they start, and those that.


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## Balrog (Aug 11, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I thought I'd start a fun discussion.  Do you see taekwondo instructors as being closed-minded, with only 1 "right" way of doing a technique?
> 
> I was watching the following video and thought that most tkd schools would say that his kick "without chambering" at 29 seconds is "WRONG", even though he is explicitly saying that it is faster (i.e., for speed).
> ...snip...
> ...


I think there may be some confusion as to what he calls chambering.  On his "chambered" side kick, he is stepping up with his back leg and kicking with his front.  On his "unchambered" side kick, there's no step, he's just kicking with the front leg.  It appears to me that the mechanic of the kick is the same in both cases.   

Yes, the non-stepping side kick (what we call a #1 kick) will be faster.  It is very defensive; somebody attacks, you feed them the foot and ruin their day for them.  The stepping kick (what we call a #3 kick) is by definition slower, but it does generate more power overall because you are moving into the target instead of standing still.


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## Balrog (Aug 11, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Like there are three types of people who can do maths, those that can and those that can't..............


Just like there are 10 kinds of people who understand binary:  those that do and those that don't.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 11, 2015)

There are two kinds of people: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data sets ...


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## WaterGal (Aug 11, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> Yeah. I wonder what would happen if someone who follows the Kukkiwon standard correctly, came to one of the clubs featured in the videos above, and performed the same forms. Would they be "corrected"? How would the people in the club then respond, if he then showed them videos of how the masters from Kukkiwon themselves do the forms? Would they still be in denial? Would they deny that they were afflicted with KKW? Or would they in some way claim that the KKW masters were doing the form wrong?



The people in those clubs may not know any better, because they're probably doing it how they were taught and never thought to watch KKW DVDs to check.  They'd probably correct the new person - if the new person joined at all, which they probably wouldn't.

But the existence these days of so many KKW resources like DVDs and detailed books means that it's easy (if you're willing to look) to find out that you were taught wrong and what changes you need to make in how you're performing the form.  I've had to do that before.  But you have to have an open mind and be willing to admit that you're wrong.  And then be willing to practice the right way a bunch of times.


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## WaterGal (Aug 11, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> On topic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow.  I watched the first one and went "wellllllll, there are some issues there, but it's not _awful_", and then I watched the rest of the videos and it just got worse and worse.  That NuYu lady - what, even, what is she doing. That's so bad, I can't even.  I feel so bad for her students.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 11, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> The people in those clubs may not know any better, because they're probably doing it how they were taught and never thought to watch KKW DVDs to check.  They'd probably correct the new person - if the new person joined at all, which they probably wouldn't.
> 
> But the existence these days of so many KKW resources like DVDs and detailed books means that it's easy (if you're willing to look) to find out that you were taught wrong and what changes you need to make in how you're performing the form.  I've had to do that before.  But you have to have an open mind and be willing to admit that you're wrong.  And then be willing to practice the right way a bunch of times.



Or, more accurately, that there is more than one way to do things. Not just the KKW way. I'll agree that if you're doing the Taegeuk poomsae, you really should do them to the KKW standard. But that does not mean that the KKW way of doing ap kubi is the "correct" way in any other context. The way the Moo Duk Kwan teaches ap kubi is longer, wider, deeper and equally correct. If you're in a Moo Duk Kwan dojang.


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## WaterGal (Aug 12, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Or, more accurately, that there is more than one way to do things. Not just the KKW way. I'll agree that if you're doing the Taegeuk poomsae, you really should do them to the KKW standard. But that does not mean that the KKW way of doing ap kubi is the "correct" way in any other context. The way the Moo Duk Kwan teaches ap kubi is longer, wider, deeper and equally correct. If you're in a Moo Duk Kwan dojang.



That's true.  I was talking about the Taegeuk forms, though.


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## skribs (Sep 1, 2015)

One reason to teach a "right way" of doing things is so people don't have to choose type A or type B.  In our school, our stuff looks different depending on the purpose (self defense, demonstration, sparring).


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 1, 2015)

skribs said:


> One reason to teach a "right way" of doing things is so people don't have to choose type A or type B.  In our school, our stuff looks different depending on the purpose (self defense, demonstration, sparring).



I think (most) people are plenty smart enough to learn more than one way. I teach "this is how you do this for the Moo Duk Kwan, this is how you do it for the KKW, these are some variants that you might use in sparring or self defense..."


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