# Traditional TKD



## MJS (Oct 20, 2010)

I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not a TKD student.  That being said, in an effrot to better understand the art, I'm posting this topic.   I'll also say that I'm looking to have a serious discussion here, so if someone can't post on topic or is going to post for the sake of stirring the pot, save yourself and everyone else some headache and please...dont post! 

So..that being said:  I had a very nice PM exchange with Ralph Mcpherson, on the trad. TKD/ Sport TKD debate.  He shared a few things with me about his teacher and some schools in his area.  

What I'm looking to discuss here, is to hear from those that have experience with what the traditional, hard core, old school, TKD is like.  So, if you have that experience, if you teach it, please share with me what exactly you do.  If your GM has the exp., please share. 

Not looking to cause flames here.  Just attempting to better understand your art.  I know there're alot of knowledgeable TKD folks on here, so I'll now turn the thread over to you. 

Mike


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2010)

The majority of my taekwondo experience was traditional.  It was geared towards defending yourself in a violent confrontation, though it also included the self improvement element that most 'do' arts tend to have.

We sparred with minimal gear (cup, mouthpiece, gloves and sometimes headgear) and had a much more comprehensive body of techniques allowed in sparring.  One dojang that I trained in had sprung hardwood floors instead of mats.

We trained in probably more hand techniques than kicks, though we did plenty of those too, and we had a few standing grapples to round out the mix.  Nothing elaborate, but simple, easily learned and easily used techniques (arm bars, wrist locks, grabs and sweeps, etc.).

The primary reason for my shift to hapkido was that the taekwondo school where I trained shifted its focus from SD with a sportive element to pretty much all sport and two fifth dan hapkido instructors joined the staff.  Our Kwanjang was a TKD competitor in Korea and an HKD instructor in the ROK, as well as being a high dan in the IHF, so I had a great deal of incentive to shift, as my training focus is SD, rather than sport.

As a kendoist, I already have an art with a strong sportive element to train in, so I really wanted to keep my unarmed training focused on SD.  Had our school not shifted its focus to sport, I'd still be in taekwondo class.  If time were not a limiting factor, I'd do all three arts.

One observation about successful sport taekwondoists: they train easily as hard as we did in the old traditional school.  Their focus is different, but I respect the training and the effort that goes into it.  It is not an easy sport.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Oct 20, 2010)

Mike I started out in Korean Karate a long time ago, it was TKD but people here in America knew Karate so alot of old Koreans used that term to bring in students. My G.M. would put us in deep horse stances and walk behind us with a kendo stick and wack the backsid eof your calfs, you better not move or it came again. We would get in stances low and rooted has it was called and held buckets filled with sand with our hands out to build strength. The poomsae/Kata's where based on application instead of high kicks and flash.

Man I would remember going home bruised up because the self defense was real and what I meant was you actually hit one another to see if you could block and counter at full speed. some of my foundes memories are of that era. Today we have sport classes for those wanting competition but I also have five traditional classes per week and those are the ones I love even though sometimes I go home and everything hurts for a few hours, I am completely satisfied because we got to work hard and find out what will work for us and what just cannot be done and we ned to make changes for ourselfs.

Back in Tex kwon Do the Allen Stern, Pat Burleson era we had all out wars at competition, it was a way to test you man hood as they would say. I guess with lawyers and the persuit of being sued over people getting hurt TKD has moved away and into the sport and for family fitness, it is consider a way of life and a journey of peace and happiness, nothing wrong with that but the old days are missed by alot of us old guys that can remember the way of TKD.


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## dancingalone (Oct 20, 2010)

I have 2 answers for you.

1) I studied an early American version of Tae Kwon Do from Jhoon Rhee's line in Texas through Alan Steen.  I don't know if I would classify it as traditional in the sense as I currently understand the word, but I am sure that many would.

The system had lots of elements from traditional karate/TKD practice like


forms practice (we used the General Choi forms, but we performed them like how Jhoon Rhee taught them)
non-integrated one step sparring (totally unlinked to the patterns)
self-defense against common grabs and attacks (again unrelated to the patterns)
breaking
There was plenty of nontraditional things taught too, such as a high boxing-influenced guard along with hooks and uppercuts.  And we sparred.  A lot.  With lots of contact and it was a common experience to leave with a few bruises or a fat lip or a bloody nose.  Lots of calisthenics too.

Overall, it was a fantastic system for practical self-defense.  You actually learned to hit while avoiding being hit yourself, and this was taught in a tough-minded atmosphere.  I eventually left in search of something more 'sophisticated' however.

2) I am currently teaching an experimental form of tae kwon do with the aim of using 'traditional' means of pedagogy.  One of my biggest frustrations with TKD as it is generally taught is that the forms are unconnected with the practical part of the curriculum - they're generally for competitive endeavors or they represent the 'art' side.  Bah.

So with that in mind, I want to make patterns the centerpiece of the instructional model.  One steps, self-defense, free sparring combinations, etc, should all CONNECT back to the forms.  This makes the patterns relevant and thus their practice meaningful.  It's really not hard to do this as I have discovered.  I am using the Choi forms as a nod to the heritage of TKD, but I could have easily have picked the old Shotokan kata used by the Kwans pre-KTA.  I could have also used the Palgwe forms too since they're really very similar to the Choi and Heian/Pyung Ahn forms.


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## Carol (Oct 20, 2010)

This doesn't look like Olympic TKD.  The folks in the commercial have their hands up and everything 

[yt]n7PEMGuA6tw[/yt]


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> 1) I studied an early American version of Tae Kwon Do from Jhoon Rhee's line in Texas through Alan Steen. I don't know if I would classify it as traditional in the sense as I currently understand the word, but I am sure that many would.
> 
> The system had lots of elements from traditional karate/TKD practice like
> 
> ...


Just an observation: at the time of 'early American Taekwondo', taekwondo as a distinct art was less than twenty years old and could hardly be called 'traditional' at that time, being essentially karate with new forms. Taekwondo was still trying to find its identity as 'not karate' and has since found its niche in the martial arts world. 

Back then, I'm not sure that the term "traditional martial arts" even existed. If it did, it likely referred not to arts with belts but to koryo arts, as judo was less than a century old, Shotokan and aikido less than fifty years old, hapkido less than thirty and taekwondo as a distinctly separate entity less than twenty.

Traditional wasn't a consideration until the "non traditional" arts became more widely known in the eighties and estalished martial arts began to expand their focus into fitness and childrens activities and combat sports like kickboxing and other newer martial sports that had an Asian MA feel to their technique set but also included non Asian MA techniques as well, such as from boxing, became popular.

Daniel


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2010)

Well, this thread is a nice breath of fresh air, from the usual pissing matches.   Thanks to everyone who's already posted, for you well thought out replies.   Of course, please feel free to add more if you choose.


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I have 2 answers for you.
> 
> 1) I studied an early American version of Tae Kwon Do from Jhoon Rhee's line in Texas through Alan Steen. I don't know if I would classify it as traditional in the sense as I currently understand the word, but I am sure that many would.
> 
> ...


 
What were some of the main differences between the Rhee forms and the Choi forms?  I dont know the forms, but it sounds like what you're doing is going to polish them up a bit, making them more practical or applicable.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2010)

Carol said:


> This doesn't look like Olympic TKD. The folks in the commercial have their hands up and everything
> 
> [yt]n7PEMGuA6tw[/yt]


I remember that commercial. Took classes at Jhoon Rhee as well.  Thats the one with the Nils Lofgren gingle.  I also remember the same commercial with the original music that sounded more like the Enter the Dragon theme.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> What were some of the main differences between the Rhee forms and the Choi forms? I dont know the forms, but it sounds like what you're doing is going to polish them up a bit, making them more practical or applicable.


So far as I remember, Jhoon Rhee used the Chang Hon forms that Gen. Choi created.

Daniel


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## Carol (Oct 20, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I remember that commercial. Took classes at Jhoon Rhee as well.  Thats the one with the Nils Lofgren gingle.  I also remember the same commercial with the original music that sounded more like the Enter the Dragon theme.
> 
> Daniel



I forgot about that one!!  I'll have to see if I can find that somewhere.

Every time I visited my grandparents, I was absolutely glued to Channel 20.  I think I can still sing the Kimba The White Lion theme song from memory. :lol:


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## dancingalone (Oct 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> What were some of the main differences between the Rhee forms and the Choi forms?



The forms are the same ones, just executed with a different emphasis.  The biggest differences are in the chambering of the arms for the blocks and strikes.  If you look at how the various ITF groups currently perform the patterns, they tend to load up at the sides for the upper and lower blocks so they can get as much hip turn into the motion as possible.  The Jhoon Rhee method will sacrifice the purity of the motion for speed as well as limiting one's exposure to being hit yourself in the execution.

And of course, the ITF people use sine wave, which is a whole other discussion.

Edit:  Oh, I should add that we shouldn't confuse the Rhee forms I am referencing with his latest 'Martial Ballet' inventions.  I never learned those and while the patterns themselves are OK, I'm not a fan of performing them to music.




MJS said:


> I dont know the forms, but it sounds like what you're doing is going to  polish them up a bit, making them more practical or applicable.



I don't know that I am changing the forms myself, although some of the ways I perform certain moves inevitably will have a karate influence to them since that has been my primary art for years now.  Some of this is subtle, such as tucking in my pelvis as I walk, etc.

The primary changes I have made is to actually devise training drills and applications coming out of the forms.  Thus, each belt level may have 1 or 2 forms along with the accompanying one steps/3 steps and formal self-defense/bunkai.


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## dancingalone (Oct 20, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just an observation: at the time of 'early American Taekwondo', taekwondo as a distinct art was less than twenty years old and could hardly be called 'traditional' at that time
> ....



I'm using the word 'traditional' with regard to the training drills borrowed from karate and tode before that.  Kata and partner drills are known to have been used as far back as the late 1800's and likely before that too if we look at the Fukien martial arts who are the antecedents to Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu karate.


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## Gemini (Oct 20, 2010)

Mike,
First, I'd like to say that knowing what spurred this thread, I appreciate your taking the time to better understand what you claim to know little about. Unfortunately, given the circumstances of what has brought our art into the world spotlight, so many misconceptions have to be expected. 

Second, I'd like to say that what I'm describing below identifies the training as done by my school, the schools I was trained in and affiliated with. Other schools and affiliations will vary.

I am certified by the Kukkiwon and teach primarily what you refer to as "traditional" Taekwondo. While we do recognize a real value in sparring, it is by no means an all inclusive representation of what we do and teach. 

Though Taekwondo is seen primarily as a kicking art, We work as much with hands as we do with feet and even incorporate knees and elbows. While linear striking is our apparent trademark, I can assure you balance and leverage are as much a part of our movement as any art. We teach how to identify anatomical weak points, specific strike points, with emphasis on muscle seams and most importantly, body language. Every one of my students even knows how to take an attackers eyes out (though the intestinal fortitude to actually do it is an altogethjer different topic). The differnce in strikes that will cause external damage as opposed to internal damage, techniques that will subdue or debilitate and each practitioner understanding (and working within) their own physical and mental constraints and limitations. 

One of the biggest differences are students at black belt level. Many arts award a black belt when a student has mastered their art or demonstarted a thorough knowledge of their art's techniques and how to implement them. We teach a slightly different philosophy. A student reaches black belt level by demonstrating an acceptable level of proficiency of basic hand and foot techniques. Being a black belt means you have the basic tools required to _begin_ your training. Does that mean you're incapable of defending yourself before then or your techniques are ineffective? Of course not. Techniques to defend yourself begin on day one. Students ability to effectively execute them depend on the student, much as any other art. My own experience though, has confirmed a common observation that most Taekwondo techniques are more difficult to learn than other arts, but they're worth the effort.

Most _uncommonly _known is our practice of joint manipulation, very similar to Hapkido. Though what we practice does not exactly resemble what you see in say, the UFC, the principle of technique is the same and therefore, the result. Clean joint locks are very difficult to execute effectively, so we spend a lot of time on them. We defend with our hands up protecting our head and body. The most common misconception is that we can't fight on the ground. That's in a word, rediculous. Though we do not take our techniiques to the ground per se, anyone who thinks we cannot apply our techniques on the ground has never tried it against someone who knows what they're doing.

The reason I think this is not common knowledge is simply because most students (as with most arts) quit after a year or so and very few take it to the black belt level. It's advanced learning that we do not practice at junior levels. Students must demonstrate an acceptable level of skill before this training starts. Even fewer students achieve proficiency because it takes literally thousands of attempts and most students get bored and want to train in something new and exciting like weapons. Because of this, few practitioners are what you might consider "dangerous" at comparable levels. This is why when discussing Taekwondo I try to understand the experience level of practitioner or individual I'm talking to. Taekwondo is an onion with many layers. It is truly an effective art for anyone who's willing to put in the effort to attain what it has to offer.

Another major difference is understanding Taekwondo is and art, not just a sport. In other words, we don't limit ourselves soley to the physical attributes of Taekwondo. The mental and philisophical attributes are just as important as many other arts that incorporate it into their training. (Again, this does not mean that sport Taekwondo does not practice these things) Acceptance of the tenets, basic understanding of Korean history, culture and events that led to the unification of the kwans and ultinately the birth of modern day Taekwondo. Always speculative yet interesting as there are no "official" records of what transpired. Personally, one of my favorite topics (See stickies in Taekwondo section).  

I could keep going on any may later. Sorry if i got too lengthy. I truly love my art and will talk obout it endlessly.

Regards,


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## dancingalone (Oct 20, 2010)

Gemini said:


> Mike,
> A student reaches black belt level by demonstrating an acceptable level of proficiency of basic hand and foot techniques. Being a black belt means you have the basic tools required to _begin_ your training.
> 
> ....
> ...



Excellent post.

I totally concur that tae kwon do is an effective a martial art as any other if taught in a complete fashion.  Unfortunately, the quality of instruction is generally poor, at least in my experience.  The reasons why are numerous:  a focus on teaching children, too many junior black belts opening their own schools and passing on their relatively small and limited body of knowledge, a general lack of desire from the public to learn ALL of IT, etc.

I don't think there's anything that can be done to reverse course for the masses.  At this point, fragmentation in the TKD is permanent with some preferring to practice sport, some preferring to emphasize teaching positive character traits to children.  And that's fine.  Both of those things are good things.  At the same time, however, 'traditional' TKD teachers can successfully exist in the margins and continue to pass on their own expressions of TKD, offering a choice to those who are seeking this out.


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## Manny (Oct 20, 2010)

Fisrt of all congratulations!!! Nice polite post and all the replies are very fine and I am with you guys in almost all you wrote about traditional TKD.

I started in Korean Karate too, infact the advertisement of my former dojang said Ji Do Kwan Karate Koreano, and you know why, TKD was a korena name and the people in Mexico don't get it so people tendes to name karate or kung fu to almost MA.

I trained in a wooden floor oh yes I rember the bllod blisters and the warm up was agresive, not only we did stretches but also hard conditioning like nucle push ups, a lot of crunches and strengtening exercices, we were WTD Style but we practiced hand techs but the kicking techs predominate, we did a lot of one and three steps sparrings and we did something called half kyorugi and full kyorugi, in full kyorugi we rarely used hogu, maybe shin pads and a cup but that was all (in the begining). Yes we were not so flashy like today but I think we don't waste time and energy in flashy kicks almost all the kicks were direct and hard to block.

Today I train in a paded foam floor and we dod a lot os stretching with no su much enphasis in hard core warm up, teh kicks must be high, and we use an armor like the Zodyak Knights to do kyorugy, less self defense and most of the trainining is kick techs. The training is very tough talking about stamina and as a cardio work out is tremendous.

Now I have my own class, the class I tecah is for men (not chuildren, not teens, not young studs) and I am trying to do my class tardional, makin stress in basics and in a furture self defense, WE (myself and students) are not interested in WTF/Olimpic Kyorugi howevere when the time comes we are going to follow the WTD rules for sparring AND... maybe we will do some kind of ITF/Point Saprring sparring using only the cup,globes and shin protectors, so basically to follow the WTF way of my sambonim we are going to do WTF Sparring and for my standars point sparring using even hands to the face (in a controled way we don't need to kill each other to do things right). About poomsae ww will adhere to the kukiwon taeguks and talking about self defense we are going to teach/leran sound techs that can be used on the streets. Yes kyumpa is a thing we are going to do regulary, as the heavy bag and kicking shield and the palchagis just  for speed.

My studenst are all white belts without kyu so I am doing things slowly but it's my goal to teach them slef defense more than kicking the air or the palchaguis.

Manny


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> I totally concur that tae kwon do is an effective a martial art as any other if taught in a complete fashion. Unfortunately, the quality of instruction is generally poor, at least in my experience. The reasons why are numerous: a focus on teaching children, too many junior black belts opening their own schools and passing on their relatively small and limited body of knowledge, a general lack of desire from the public to learn ALL of IT, etc.


I must concur, sadly. 



dancingalone said:


> I don't think there's anything that can be done to reverse course for the masses. At this point, fragmentation in the TKD is permanent with some preferring to practice sport, some preferring to emphasize teaching positive character traits to children. And that's fine. Both of those things are good things. At the same time, however, 'traditional' TKD teachers can successfully exist in the margins and continue to pass on their own expressions of TKD, offering a choice to those who are seeking this out.


I think that sport is probably the key.  Separate the sport and run it like a sport with programs geared towards kids of different ages.  Another easy fix would be to call the sport TKD and refer to the art as taekwondo.

That way, there would be a clear delineation between the martial art and the sport.  

Given the size of the Kukkiwon, one good fix would be for the Kukkiwon to make dan-bo and up require an association test.  That way, KKW authorized instructors go to the school to oversee the test and the results are graded above the dojo level.  That would solve the black belt issue.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Oh, I should add that we shouldn't confuse the Rhee forms I am referencing with his latest 'Martial Ballet' inventions. I never learned those and while the patterns themselves are OK, I'm not a fan of performing them to music.


I believe that these were collectively called something along the lines of 'Might for Right Martial Ballet.'  I had forgotten about that.

Daniel


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> The forms are the same ones, just executed with a different emphasis. The biggest differences are in the chambering of the arms for the blocks and strikes. If you look at how the various ITF groups currently perform the patterns, they tend to load up at the sides for the upper and lower blocks so they can get as much hip turn into the motion as possible. The Jhoon Rhee method will sacrifice the purity of the motion for speed as well as limiting one's exposure to being hit yourself in the execution.
> 
> And of course, the ITF people use sine wave, which is a whole other discussion.
> 
> Edit: Oh, I should add that we shouldn't confuse the Rhee forms I am referencing with his latest 'Martial Ballet' inventions. I never learned those and while the patterns themselves are OK, I'm not a fan of performing them to music.


 
Ok, thanks for the clarification. 






> I don't know that I am changing the forms myself, although some of the ways I perform certain moves inevitably will have a karate influence to them since that has been my primary art for years now. Some of this is subtle, such as tucking in my pelvis as I walk, etc.
> 
> The primary changes I have made is to actually devise training drills and applications coming out of the forms. Thus, each belt level may have 1 or 2 forms along with the accompanying one steps/3 steps and formal self-defense/bunkai.


 
I've run into this same issue with some of the Anyos (forms) in Modern Arnis.  One of the head guys in the group is a BB in Isshin Ryu.  Its obvious, watching him do the forms, that the other art influenced the Arnis forms.


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2010)

Gemini said:


> Mike,
> First, I'd like to say that knowing what spurred this thread, I appreciate your taking the time to better understand what you claim to know little about. Unfortunately, given the circumstances of what has brought our art into the world spotlight, so many misconceptions have to be expected.


 
No problem.  



> Second, I'd like to say that what I'm describing below identifies the training as done by my school, the schools I was trained in and affiliated with. Other schools and affiliations will vary.
> 
> I am certified by the Kukkiwon and teach primarily what you refer to as "traditional" Taekwondo. While we do recognize a real value in sparring, it is by no means an all inclusive representation of what we do and teach.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for a detailed post.   This is what I was hoping to get out of this thread, and so far so good.  By all means, add more if you'd like.  As for the joint lock stuff....yes, you're correct...up until now, I had no idea any of that stuff was in there.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2010)

Is there a specific reason that TKD is focused more on kicks? Of all the martial arts techniques I think high kicks are actually the most difficult to master correctly for a lot of people. Effective certainly when done properly but I was wondering why TKD has more emphasis on kicks than other styles. Was it like that originally or has it evolved over the years or even relatively recently?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Is there a specific reason that *TKD is focused more on kicks*? Of all the martial arts techniques I think high kicks are actually the most difficult to master correctly for a lot of people. Effective certainly when done properly but I was wondering why TKD has more emphasis on kicks than other styles. Was it like that originally or has it evolved over the years or even relatively recently?


In terms of the curriculum, taekwondo actually has a greater number of hand techniques than kicking techniques.  

Most schools focus on kicks because, as you say, high kicks are more difficult to train and because it is the focus of WTF sport taekwondo.

Outside of the sport, however, the focus really is more evenly divided between hand and foot techniques.

Daniel


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## ATC (Oct 20, 2010)

Gemini said:


> Mike,
> First, I'd like to say that knowing what spurred this thread, I appreciate your taking the time to better understand what you claim to know little about. Unfortunately, given the circumstances of what has brought our art into the world spotlight, so many misconceptions have to be expected.
> 
> Second, I'd like to say that what I'm describing below identifies the training as done by my school, the schools I was trained in and affiliated with. Other schools and affiliations will vary.
> ...


Great post. For a moment I was trying to figure out who form my dojang was posting this.

The only thing that I want to add is that when teaching children we also take a different approach. Kids learn basic gross motor skills like jumping, running, pushups, sit-ups, kicks, and punches. They learn the forms but with not much attention to detail as it is all about developing the mind and discipline. This is why many look at TKD schools as kiddy care. However (and I am only speaking for my school) after the age of 8 we expect much more from you. You will be required to learn all forms up to your belt level and will be taught some basic SD along with basic one step sparing. Just about everything that Gemini mentioned in his post applies to eight and up.

If it is the sport side of things you want, there is a specific class for that. However you still must maintain coming to regular classes and failure to do so will bar you from the sport competition classes. There are no exceptions. My daughter and son both won National Jr. Olympics for their weight and age and almost lost their spots in this class due to not participating in regular classes. Our Subumnin is serious about being a total Martial Artist and not just a point fighter.

Just as Gemini stated once you reach Black Belt that is when the training in the art begins. All black belts are required to attend Black Belt classes for black belts only. In this class there is so much detail that you will may get stuck on one thing for quite some time. Things that are not taught to color belts are taught in this class like more emphasis on Hapkido plus the whys and whats of what you have been always doing.

If I had to break down TKD vs. other arts I would sum it up like this.

Color belt levels are for developing athleticism.
Black Belt lever is like being a athletic white belt in a new art.

At Black Belt you also learn to teach the art in the specific manner that it was taught to you and why it has to be this way. TKD if taught correctly ensures that you instill the etiquettes of TKD as a priority first above all else. Your first 4 years or so are all about making changes that will be needed for your training.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not a TKD student. That being said, in an effrot to better understand the art, I'm posting this topic.  I'll also say that I'm looking to have a serious discussion here, so if someone can't post on topic or is going to post for the sake of stirring the pot, save yourself and everyone else some headache and please...dont post!
> 
> So..that being said: I had a very nice PM exchange with Ralph Mcpherson, on the trad. TKD/ Sport TKD debate. He shared a few things with me about his teacher and some schools in his area.
> 
> ...


 

I trained TKD, Pre-Olympic (many, many years ago) and it had take downs, close in fighting drills, forms and a lot of kicking and punching oh and no protective gear

My teacher is still teaching as far as I know in the same location but is also now back teaching in Korea as well. 

And as far as I know my teacher is still teaching


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## ATC (Oct 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> I'll preface this post by saying that I'm not a TKD student. That being said, in an effrot to better understand the art, I'm posting this topic.  I'll also say that I'm looking to have a serious discussion here, so if someone can't post on topic or is going to post for the sake of stirring the pot, save yourself and everyone else some headache and please...dont post!
> 
> So..that being said: I had a very nice PM exchange with Ralph Mcpherson, on the trad. TKD/ Sport TKD debate. He shared a few things with me about his teacher and some schools in his area.
> 
> ...


:asian: for taking the time to get some insight.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 20, 2010)

I try to teach a more traditional class, to the extent you can with mostly 7-11 year olds.  They aren't ready for some of the mental/spiritual concepts.  

White belts we start from the feet up, meaning balance and stances.  The advanced rank students I got when I took over had not been drilled on balance and footwork.  Their 'kicks' (yes, that bad) looked horrible, they were leaning all over, footwork was all wrong.  My new students, that myself and my group of instructors have worked from their first night, have better footwork than those advanced did when I took over.  Now, they are white belts, they don't have perfect footwork yet.  But they can lift their front leg into front kick chamber without their head rising up or their body leaning backwards because of shifting weight, from improper weight distribution when in a T stance/back stance.  I am a big believer in proper balance and stances.  Balance and footwork are universal in their importance in any MA.  

We are big on forms.  We do the General Choi forms, without the current ITF sine wave.  My instructors were big on learning how to decipher the movements into real world self defense applications.  That isn't something I work on white belts with, but as student progress to the point we feel that we can trust them with the knowledge.  White belts focus on how to properly kick/punch/block.  As students advance we show them where to hit.  By that I mean specific points on the body, not just 'the target area for X is the ribs'.  

While we do teach all the kicks, we do place emphasis on hand techniques and blocking.  Besides rank specific one steps, we work on escapes from grabs/holds, placing an opponent in a hold, and takedowns.  For some reason the kids like tossing the BB on the ground when learning takedowns.  

Sparring has it's place.  We tell them to work on stringing together moves instead of doing just one move.  The level of contact goes up with age and rank.

They do learn some history through the names of the Choi forms, and we are working on packets for each belt rank of things we feel they should know about TKD and the history of it.


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In terms of the curriculum, taekwondo actually has a greater number of hand techniques than kicking techniques.
> 
> Most schools focus on kicks because, as you say, high kicks are more difficult to train and because it is the focus of WTF sport taekwondo.
> 
> ...


 
For the non sport side, is the focus still on higher kicks or would they be mid to low level? 

From a Kenpo standpoint, I do throw some head height kicks in sparring, and have had success with various combos.  However, I personally feel more comfortable with chest level.  Of course, depending on the type of sparring that I'm doing, I'll toss in some kick to the leg, knees, etc.   However, for kicks in our SD techs, they're all low level.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> So..that being said: I had a very nice PM exchange with Ralph Mcpherson, on the trad. TKD/ Sport TKD debate. He shared a few things with me about his teacher and some schools in his area.
> 
> What I'm looking to discuss here, is to hear from those that have experience with what the traditional, hard core, old school, TKD is like. So, if you have that experience, if you teach it, please share with me what exactly you do. If your GM has the exp., please share.
> 
> ...


 
You asked an interesting question and got a lot of feedback.  It is really difficult to answer your questions since there is often great debate about what is Tae Kwon Do, Taekwon-Do, and Taekwondo.  There isn't even agreement on the layyout of the name. 

Add to that what is "Traditional"  Some claim that systems existing before 1955 when TKD was named are TKD. Are those traditional? What about the system to first be designed for that name which was pretty much the one being spread from 1955-1973 or So. Then you have the ones formulated post 1973 which is "Traditional" . 

So, "Opinions vary." - Dalton


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2010)

ATC said:


> :asian: for taking the time to get some insight.


 
Well, I figure rather than running around, assuming things, why not ask those who know.  

And thank you for your input as well.


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> You asked an interesting question and got a lot of feedback. It is really difficult to answer your questions since there is often great debate about what is Tae Kwon Do, Taekwon-Do, and Taekwondo. There isn't even agreement on the layyout of the name.
> 
> Add to that what is "Traditional" Some claim that systems existing before 1955 when TKD was named are TKD. Are those traditional? What about the system to first be designed for that name which was pretty much the one being spread from 1955-1973 or So. Then you have the ones formulated post 1973 which is "Traditional" .
> 
> So, "Opinions vary." - Dalton


 
Points taken.  Like I said, this thread was mainly sparked from another thread and some private messages, so while I do undertand that there're variations, I'm just trying to get somewhat of an idea as to what the more hardcore side is like.


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## Gemini (Oct 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> For the non sport side, is the focus still on higher kicks or would they be mid to low level?


 
The target that presents itself. 

High or low, no one can cover everything. We teach to exploit the opening, so we practice both, but my personal preference is low, primarily the knees. It's faster and able to generate more power in a shorter distance. Not all students are capable of high kicks, but even the most inflexible can effectively execute a low kick while maintaining a guarded position.


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## Tez3 (Oct 20, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> ...................... *We tell them to work on stringing together moves* *instead of doing just one move*.............


 

Oh, this made me smile! I have seen it in karate, JKD, TKD, TSD even boxing, children when they first spar do that 'I'll punch you then you punch me' thing! They are so fair and polite about it too, bless them.


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## dancingalone (Oct 20, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Is there a specific reason that TKD is focused more on kicks? Of all the martial arts techniques I think high kicks are actually the most difficult to master correctly for a lot of people. Effective certainly when done properly but I was wondering why TKD has more emphasis on kicks than other styles. *Was it like that originally or has it evolved over the years or even relatively recently?*



The tae kwon do practiced in the forties, fifties, and sixties did not have the variety of spinning and jumping high kicks so prevalent today.  They were added during the late sixties or early seventies according to a few interviews I have read with people like He Il Cho or Kim Soo, senior people who were around and practicing KMA for much of this time.  Kim Soo was a part of the kwan period before General Choi unified the kwans under his direction for a time.

As for why kicks are taught dominantly now, there are several explanations which all undoubtedly have some truth to them.  



a desire to diverge from Japanese karate
an attempt to rekindle a Korean martial art using the tae kyon mythos
flashy kicks are cool and bring in students
the WTF needed something truly different to get their sport into the games and Olympic rules TKD sparring is certainly different from anything that came before it
some honestly have bought into the kick first fighting philosophy


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## chrispillertkd (Oct 20, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> I trained TKD, Pre-Olympic (many, many years ago) and it had take downs, close in fighting drills, forms and a lot of kicking and punching oh and no protective gear
> 
> My teacher is still teaching as far as I know in the same location but is also now back teaching in Korea as well.
> 
> And as far as I know my teacher is still teaching


 
I remember seeing J.H. Kim's flash-photography showing trhe speeds of various techniques in Gen. Choi's 1972 textbook. It was very cool.

Did you train with GM Kim long? He'd be a person I'd love to have a chat with about TKD history sometime. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Manny (Oct 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> The tae kwon do practiced in the forties, fifties, and sixties did not have the variety of spinning and jumping high kicks so prevalent today. They were added during the late sixties or early seventies according to a few interviews I have read with people like He Il Cho or Kim Soo, senior people who were around and practicing KMA for much of this time. Kim Soo was a part of the kwan period before General Choi unified the kwans under his direction for a time.
> 
> As for why kicks are taught dominantly now, there are several explanations which all undoubtedly have some truth to them.
> 
> ...


 

Dancingalone, I think you are right here for me TKD has evolved into a flashy/flying/spining kicks because of the desire to diverge from japanese karate (in the beginimg of TKD) and because flashy kicks are cool and bring students.

When I do sparr with the young studs in dojang I have to wach out for the high kicks, the young like to do tornado kicks and all kind of spining/jumping flying kicks, so I am not as fast and high in those kicks to nail them but I know deep in my heart that if low kicks were allowed I could catch them in the air with a well placed low kick and put them down in pain so they would think twice before go for my head.

Manny


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> For the non sport side, is the focus still on higher kicks or would they be mid to low level?
> 
> From a Kenpo standpoint, I do throw some head height kicks in sparring, and have had success with various combos.  However, I personally feel more comfortable with chest level.  Of course, depending on the type of sparring that I'm doing, I'll toss in some kick to the leg, knees, etc.   However, for kicks in our SD techs, they're all low level.



Before the sport shift, we practiced high, mid and low kicking.  Many of our one steps involved hapkido-esque grapples and sweeps and we did a lot of hand techniques.  Strong punching, though we were weak on jabs.  We also had a specific self defense night and that was pretty much zero high kicks.

After the sport shift, it gradually shifted to focusing on the mid and high level kicks, as low kicks are not really part of WTF sport TKD.  At this point, he had the hapkido classes going, which is what I have shifted to.

Now, regardless of the sport focus, the poomsae do have kicks at variegated levels.  Koryo, for example, opens up with a low and a mid kick.  Keumgang has no kicks whatsoever.  The poomsae also tend to be fairly heavy on hand techniques.

Daniel


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## Carol (Oct 20, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> And as far as I know my teacher is still teaching



Yes he is and still at the exact same dojang behind Fenway Park.   I came thiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to training there when I was in college, had a part-time job Freshman year at a restaurant right next door and was friendly with a few of the folks there at the time.  Really regret not doing it, but I was just too poor to make it happen


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 20, 2010)

Just a note on high kicks. I think a lot of people think all we practice is high kicks because tkdists are generally good at them so people assume that our focus lies with high kicks. I have met many tkd instructors and high ranking tkdists and I am still yet to hear one say that high kicks are a good option in self defence as a general rule. Sure, if you 'stun' someone with a good low or midsection kick and you get that half a second where you have the opening by all means head kick but no reputable tkdist gets in a fight and starts throwing jump spinning kicks or tornado kicks. Also, as Ive said before, the training of high kicks or even showy kicks can drastically improve your lower kicks. If you can throw a very fast, accurate and powerful kick at head height then just imagine how good your lower kicks will be. My roundhouse kick improved out of sight after learning a tornado kick for example.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 21, 2010)

torando kick?

- googled... it's pretty... pretty useless in a self defense situation that is.


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 21, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> torando kick?
> 
> - googled... it's pretty... pretty useless in a self defense situation that is.


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## Carol (Oct 21, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


>



No emphasis on protecting the face?  

No emphasis on kicking and manipulating when the arms are up -- as that changes the body's center of balance?  

No emphasis on blocking an attack? 

Aren't these the most basic, and most important principles of self-defense -- learning the ability to *stop *something from hurting the body?


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> torando kick?
> 
> - googled... it's pretty... pretty useless in a self defense situation that is.


 
It is also called a Nanabaum spelling maybe off but it is the same kick, MJS ask for thoughtout opinions and keep this from becoming another bashing so I will only say that a Tonardo kick can be useful in any stituation just like alot of hands and kicks from many arts. One of the best quality to any S.D. type scenerio is taking your opponet off gaurd quickly and this kick done right will have a thunder type of effect due the the target area of the kick and how much force can be generated by it. I am older now and keep lower with my kick but back in the days I could do this kick with very little effort and land it 98% of the time on anybody, it is called timing.

 I would like to add that the evolution of Traditional TKD has not changed that much in my circle's it is still regarded as a deadly force if tought the proper techs. for S.D.. TKD is never consider an Art of it own but rather an Art developed by means of taking what other arts had to offer and took what they consider the best and mixed it with other arts.

I have trained in several countries due to my father involvement in training military personal in hand to hand combat and I can remember being tought Joint Locks, ground work and alot more. I also remember some of my instructor saying this was art A, B and C before it ever became a part of TKD. Now I know some of you believe in this TKD has been around one way or another for 1,000's of years but no it has not the concept is a little of 50 years and the founders was rooted in Okinawa Karate based arts with some Judo and other arts mixed in for a well rounded discipline, what we have forgotten is the Koreans wanted to have something of their own to take to the world, to seperate them from everyone else hince came TKD and the Olympic side, every single instructor latched on to this and the money train took off, now it is by far the most practice Sport Art we have in the world. I remember reading like TKD has over 1.4 million school worldwide teaching the sport of TKD.

Now alot of older instructors have since retired and the young ones turned to the sport because it was easy to teach, not saying easy has in not real material because the elite groups train like mad men all the time but easy in the sense in making money, it is cater to families and childern with the main course being the whole package, but we still need to remember that Traditional TKD in the sense is really other arts coming together to make a whole art.

In closing I would like to say I cannot see any sort of Traditional TKD in another 25 years, simply because too many young sport studs opening schools and flooding the market place. To many black belts that really have no S.D. what so ever and too many older instructor switching over to the sport to make a good living at it. My school is small and yes we teach the sportside but my background is not sport, I become involved in it 10 years ago when my oldest wanted to compete in it and I did not trust any of these so called young bucks to teach him it so I watched, learn and researched it to the fullest now he is consider a top tier fighter and he is making his push now to get notice some say I waited to long but for me he is at the right age 16 to really understand what it takes to become an elite. Elite expert say start at 10 or 11 but that is to early and alot of those kids are out of the sport by the time they are 20 because they did not take proper care of body and mind. I expect Zachary to excel around 18-22 for the sport but I also expect him to stay with the art side for many years to come because he has that rooted in him and he loves Self Defense since it was not all sport will he was growing up. I believe TKD will evolve even more as a sport and less as an Art only time will tell.


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2010)

Carol said:


> No emphasis on protecting the face?
> 
> No emphasis on kicking and manipulating when the arms are up -- as that changes the body's center of balance?
> 
> ...


 
Yes Carol it is but one thing alot of people do not relize at times is that kick is coming so fast and with so much power are you able to stop it with hands up and the answer is most likely not. Alot of S.D. is practical but also it is about surprising your assaulant and this kick can get off with a blink of an eye and be landed very much at will with the proper training. When people watch the sportside only they need to ask themself this one question, can I block that kick and I can I survive if I ever get hit with that kick. If you can answer yes I can block that silly kick than I invite anybody at anytime to come over and do so, not a challenge but just saying until you have been hit with it you cannot understand the force that comes from it. I do not and would not throw this kick mainly becaus eI am older and not able to get the speed from the turn to generate the force needed to really effectively make it work anymore but in my younger days I have used it in S.D. and was very succesful with it.

Carol in no means is it an end all to alot of stituation but in the right place it can be devastateing to someone. Remember S.D. is about surviving not destroying.:asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> I remember seeing J.H. Kim's flash-photography showing trhe speeds of various techniques in Gen. Choi's 1972 textbook. It was very cool.
> 
> Did you train with GM Kim long? He'd be a person I'd love to have a chat with about TKD history sometime.
> 
> ...


 
Only about 1.5 years maybe 2 and I was very young when I started, I couldn't drive. But when I had to stop I could drive. He closed his school in Worcester Ma and I had to stop. I went back about 2 years later to his school in Boston but then I had moved to NYS.

I was not so much into MA history back then, I was more into the sparring, but I do know he was highly skilled and a great teacher.

He also thought protective gear was silly since there was no protective gear in a fight. He finally bought some because enough students asked for it and I wore it once. It was old style padding that was mostly bamboo covered in thin padding and to be honest it hurt more to get hit wearing it than it did if you were not wearing it.

It is one of the MA schools that I went to that I do wish I could have gone to longer.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 21, 2010)

As stated previously in this thread, Traditional TKD can be a bit hard to define.. . It is a common term used to delineate from Sport TKD, but there were many fragmentations and permutations long before TKD became an olympic sport.  When we look at the original gyms that opened up after the Japanese occupation of Korea, all of them were teaching some form of Karate.  I do not know, and I doubt anyone that wasn't there does either, what other things were added into the amalgamation that became Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do.  My Kwan Jang Nim was a member of the Moo Duk Kwan and was an instructor in the ROK.  When he came the the U.S. in the late 1960's he immediately had to change how he taught MDK TKD.  He was losing students left and right.  When he asked a fellow MDK master who was also in the U.S. at the time, GM Kyong Won Ahn replied that "you cannot teach Americans the same way you taught in Korea, they are too soft."  

So from that perspective, no one in America was actually taught "Traditional" anything.  The watering down process had begun as soon as it set foot in the U.S.  

That being said, I started under Kwan Jang Sok Ho Kang in 1985.  We were taught traditional Shotokan form sets: Kicho Hyungs, Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Naihanchi Hyungs, Bassai Hyung, Ship Soo Hyung, Rohai Hyung, Chinto Hyung, Kang Song Kun Hyung.. .  We did a lot of sparring (only protective gear was a cup) and breaking.. . Self defense and forms as well.  

Things were not easy, but from what all of my instructors have told me it was even much watered down from the late 1960's when Kwan Jang Nim first started teaching over here.  But that is a discussion for another thread.

I suppose my point is, what defines TRADITIONAL TKD?  TKD under General Choi?  TKD before the unification of the styles?  KTA TKD?  KKW TKD?  ITF?  WTF?  It all fragmented so quickly while it was still in it's infancy.  

My personal lineage is one from Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, which is basically the bastard child of the unification process.  Hwang Kee didn't want to unify under Choi, some of Hwang Kee's instructor's did though.  When his instructors left, they kept the name Moo Duk Kwan, but left Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do and adopted the name Tae Kwon Do.  I personally don't care what name you use.  The only purpose the name serves is a road map of where you came from (which has its merit).  

As for technique difference, many of the "traditional" schools adopted sport aspects over the course of time.  We did not, although my Kwan Jang Nim was on the U.S. Olympic Committee in 1988 and in 1992.. .  He had hoped that the Olympics would bring TKD into a new age, but when it did, he didn't like what it had become.  "Chicken Fighting" is what he called it.  

Again, I don't care what you call it.  Sport TKD is a great SPORT.  The issue comes in when, like many schools, it isn't strictly a SPORT school.  There are elements of an art mixed in with the sport.  Then it becomes murky as to how effective is the "art" because so much emphasis is being put on the "sport."  

I am sure there are schools out there that blend the sport aspect and the art aspect well.  But, IMHO, that is a difficult task.

Point in case, I competed in the Junior Olympics as a teen.  Nearly every match I lost points due to "excessive contact."  This was my first and only experience in the "sport,"  and I sparred just as I always sparred in class and in traditional tournaments.  My limited experience with the sport left me with the feeling that the art and the sport were truly two different animals.


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## dancingalone (Oct 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Yes Carol it is but one thing alot of people do not relize at times is that kick is coming so fast and with so much power are you able to stop it with hands up and the answer is most likely not. Alot of S.D. is practical but also it is about surprising your assaulant and this kick can get off with a blink of an eye and be landed very much at will with the proper training. *When people watch the sportside only they need to ask themself this one question, can I block that kick and I can I survive *if I ever get hit with that kick. If you can answer yes I can block that silly kick than I invite anybody at anytime to come over and do so, not a challenge but just saying until you have been hit with it you cannot understand the force that comes from it. I do not and would not throw this kick mainly becaus eI am older and not able to get the speed from the turn to generate the force needed to really effectively make it work anymore but in my younger days I have used it in S.D. and was very succesful with it.
> 
> Carol in no means is it an end all to alot of stituation but in the right place it can be devastateing to someone. Remember S.D. is about surviving not destroying.:asian:




I don't mean to nitpick and I am not bashing sport TKD.  I do however want to make the point that we all train for different things.  A kick might be well-nigh impossible to block under the rule set used in Olympic rules competition.  I argue however that when grabbing, sweeping, leg checking, and throwing are permitted (or indeed when rules are thrown out the window altogether), it becomes a whole separate situation altogether.  Then it becomes more a measure of whom is better is what they do.  This might be the kicker, or it might not be, and consider that a lot of the time, someone might actually want their opponent to kick first as a committed attack of any type WILL provide an opening if the defender is skilled enough to take advantage of it.


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## Carol (Oct 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Yes Carol it is but one thing alot of people do not relize at times is that kick is coming so fast and with so much power are you able to stop it with hands up and the answer is most likely not. Alot of S.D. is practical but also it is about surprising your assaulant and this kick can get off with a blink of an eye and be landed very much at will with the proper training. When people watch the sportside only they need to ask themself this one question, can I block that kick and I can I survive if I ever get hit with that kick. If you can answer yes I can block that silly kick than I invite anybody at anytime to come over and do so, not a challenge but just saying until you have been hit with it you cannot understand the force that comes from it. I do not and would not throw this kick mainly becaus eI am older and not able to get the speed from the turn to generate the force needed to really effectively make it work anymore but in my younger days I have used it in S.D. and was very succesful with it.
> 
> Carol in no means is it an end all to alot of stituation but in the right place it can be devastateing to someone. Remember S.D. is about surviving not destroying.:asian:



Thanks Terry :asian: 

I think a person defaults to their level of training, and if they train fancy kicks and high kicks a lot, then they will be able to utilize them far more effectively than people who don't. 

I just didn't think the clip was a fair offering of what the kick could do for self-defense when the practitioners have arms flaccid at their side and doing nothing for protecting the face.      Doesn't it also make sense that a fighter that trains block and protect and have their guard up at all times when they fight will be able to do this far more effectively than people who don't? 

Of course that kick is going to be nearly impossible to block if a person doesn't have their hands up.  That's basic body mechanics.


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## jthomas1600 (Oct 21, 2010)

So you go to your club and you spend hours working on tornado kicks until you can actually successfully pull it off and score a point in a sparring session with it. While the actual kick may be worthless in a self defense situation the athletic ability, balance, agility, vision, etc. that you gained in the process certainly will not be useless in a self defense situation. At least that's my $0.02 and it's what I tell my kids.


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## dancingalone (Oct 21, 2010)

jthomas1600 said:


> So you go to your club and you spend hours working on tornado kicks until you can actually successfully pull it off and score a point in a sparring session with it. While the actual kick may be worthless in a self defense situation the athletic ability, balance, agility, vision, etc. that you gained in the process certainly will not be useless in a self defense situation. At least that's my $0.02 and it's what I tell my kids.




That may be the case.  I have some doubts about the premise but I'm already going off-topic.  In any case, this seems like a very indirect way to practice for self-defense... If we are concerned with SD, why not simply train for it rather than practice an esoteric technique in hopes that there might be some physical carryover?


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I don't mean to nitpick and I am not bashing sport TKD. I do however want to make the point that we all train for different things. A kick might be well-nigh impossible to block under the rule set used in Olympic rules competition. I argue however that when grabbing, sweeping, leg checking, and throwing are permitted (or indeed when rules are thrown out the window altogether), it becomes a whole separate situation altogether. Then it becomes more a measure of whom is better is what they do. This might be the kicker, or it might not be, and consider that a lot of the time, someone might actually want their opponent to kick first as a committed attack of any type WILL provide an opening if the defender is skilled enough to take advantage of it.


 
I completely agree with what you are saying, all I am adding is do not dis- regards some of the kicks in the sport as if they cannot do any damage to someone. Like you said we have to take in all accounts to be profiecent at S.D. and one thing is to never underestimate your opponet whether in the ring or on the street.


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## jthomas1600 (Oct 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> That may be the case.  I have some doubts about the premise but I'm already going off-topic.  In any case, this seems like a very indirect way to practice for self-defense... If we are concerned with SD, why not simply train for it rather than practice an esoteric technique in hopes that there might be some physical carryover?



Eh, you're right, we're off topic (and it's a good topic by the way) but just to respond...first off I'm a practical use what works SD guy at heart and just sort of ended up at a school that skews towards the sport aspect a bit. So the statement I made earlier is a result of my trying to take what I'm learning and finding the value in it. We work on practical stuff too, but we do a lot of tornado, spinning jumping hook kicks type things I'd never use on the streets. Anyway, if you go to a football practice or basketball practice you will see them doing all kinds of things that don't look like football or basketball. They are doing them to improve athletically. We do jumping jacks to help with our cardio, why not also do jumping kicks to help with our cardio and athleticism as well? Anyway, sorry for the off topic.


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2010)

Carol said:


> Thanks Terry :asian:
> 
> I think a person defaults to their level of training, and if they train fancy kicks and high kicks a lot, then they will be able to utilize them far more effectively than people who don't.
> 
> ...


 

Carol yes to some degree, lets take the average person robbing someone are they condition the arms to be like concrete because if not that kick thrown from a proper person would break alot of forearms. So from that perspective it would be a stopper, now if a 120 weak link that learned the kick does not generate the speed and power than it is useless, but if a well train person deliver that blow it might be devastating to they robber. Now this is alot of this and that but one thing for sure certain kick can be used from the right person insome stituations. Remember not saying all but certain.


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## dancingalone (Oct 21, 2010)

jthomas1600 said:


> Anyway, if you go to a football practice or basketball practice you will see them doing all kinds of things that don't look like football or basketball. They are doing them to improve athletically. We do jumping jacks to help with our cardio, why not also do jumping kicks to help with our cardio and athleticism as well?



IMO, it's fine if we explain it as such.  On the other hand if the student is misled whether unintentionally or not, he might find himself in a fine pickle some day.  It doesn't even have to be a jumping kick.  I love it when someone aims a high roundhouse kick towards my head, since it is a common scenario I try to address in my training.


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2010)

To help get this back on topic he is a obsevation old days vs. new wave. Remember when forms/kata/poomsae use to take months to learn every single detail, now those was the days when instructors took the time to teach and explore option within evry movement, noa days people learn movement in a week and then they have mastered it within acouple more weeks but they never take the time to explore what the techs can really do and how you can add to each and every one. Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> To help get this back on topic he is a obsevation old days vs. new wave. Remember when forms/kata/poomsae use to take months to learn every single detail, now those was the days when instructors took the time to teach and explore option within evry movement, noa days people learn movement in a week and then they have mastered it within acouple more weeks but they never take the time to explore what the techs can really do and how you can add to each and every one. Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.


 
For one thing...there were fewer belts

But, as you already alluded to, you spent a lot more time in that belt since getting from one to the other took a heck of a lot of time.

Which also translates to there were no guarantees of how long it would take to get a black belt nor where there any guarantees that you would actually get one.

And of course no contracts to sigh either


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 21, 2010)

jthomas1600 said:


> So you go to your club and you spend hours working on tornado kicks until you can actually successfully pull it off and score a point in a sparring session with it. While the actual kick may be worthless in a self defense situation the athletic ability, balance, agility, vision, etc. that you gained in the process certainly will not be useless in a self defense situation. At least that's my $0.02 and it's what I tell my kids.


Worthless? Not worthless so much as being a kick that you can only use if the contitions are absolutely perfect.  In other words, that one-in-a-million chance.

kicks like the tornado kick, however, have a secondary purpose. In training to do the kick itself, you must raise the bar of your own athleticism. You have to train very hard and you need to develop a great degree of core strength. The hard work pays off in a myriad of ways.

First of all, you can do something that you couldn't do before, which is an accomplishment in and of itself.

Second, the increased athletic ability that you developed to do a kick such as the tornado kick benefits all of the rest of your kicks.

Third, you can now actually use it in competition. If you use it successfully in competition (which is against a resisting opponent), then you have a chance of being able to pull it off in that one-in-a-million circumstance where actually *is* the right tool for the job.

Fourth, it looks great in demonstrations, which can bring students to the school who can now start benefiting from the same training that has benefited you.

In other words, you don't just develop a kick. You develop yourself as a taekwondoist. And personal development is a large part of both traditional *and* sport taekwondo.

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Oct 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> The tae kwon do practiced in the forties, fifties, and sixties did not have the variety of spinning and jumping high kicks so prevalent today.  They were added during the late sixties or early seventies according to a few interviews I have read with people like He Il Cho or Kim Soo, senior people who were around and practicing KMA for much of this time.  Kim Soo was a part of the kwan period before General Choi unified the kwans under his direction for a time.
> 
> As for why kicks are taught dominantly now, there are several explanations which all undoubtedly have some truth to them.
> 
> ...



*a desire to diverge from Japanese karate*

This one holds allot of validity for me...My kids are currently taking Shotokan Karate(Sport).  Based on 2 months of observation TKD Sport rules seem to have been developed to be the exact opposite of Sport Karate!


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## Manny (Oct 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> To help get this back on topic he is a obsevation old days vs. new wave. Remember when forms/kata/poomsae use to take months to learn every single detail, now those was the days when instructors took the time to teach and explore option within evry movement, noa days people learn movement in a week and then they have mastered it within acouple more weeks but they never take the time to explore what the techs can really do and how you can add to each and every one. Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.


 
OUCH!!! Yes this is very true, I can remember the way we did poomsae in the 80's, lots of repetitions watching the perfect motion to get an outstanding performance doing the poomsae, this days poomsea is shown, barely practiced and in the wrong and then examination.

I remeber too when in examination you got cualifications per every part of the test, the examinator put you cualification (0 to 10) in technike,poomsae,kyompa,one steps kyorugy, self defense and kyourugy and the minimal average for these was 80 of 100 points possible, the examinator gave your grades and told you wre do you have to improve for the next time and.... yes there were some persons that did not pass the examination and this was a shame for them.

Manny


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## Gorilla (Oct 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> To help get this back on topic he is a obsevation old days vs. new wave. Remember when forms/kata/poomsae use to take months to learn every single detail, now those was the days when instructors took the time to teach and explore option within evry movement, noa days people learn movement in a week and then they have mastered it within acouple more weeks but they never take the time to explore what the techs can really do and how you can add to each and every one. Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.



This is how my kids have been trained.  They were first taught the techniques in each form.  The they are taught the form. Once they have mastered the form they work on the practical aspects of each form.  They know every form up to Jitae.  They spent 3 hours last night going over SD Applications of Jitae.  They love this method and it is helped them when they teach it.  They are proficient at teaching up to Taebaek.  They also spend allot of time breaking down each technique in the color belt forms(down to the smallest detail) to keep getting better.  They are being trained in forms by a Master who got his BB in 1964.  It has been a great experience for my kids.


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## dancingalone (Oct 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Lets talk about the good old days and what it took to be a black belt.



Well, I remember my 1st dan test in TKD.  I got the hell beat out of me.  Lots of rounds with the lower ranks to tire you out.  Then your fellow brown belts who all are trying to look good themselves.  Then the black belts, sometimes multiples of them at once.  You didn't have to win every fight.  Technical proficiency disappears after a while and it's really all about heart and your determination to never quit, to take someone down with you, if you are going down yourself.

Of course, physical and PAINFUL tests like those just don't happen these days in commercial studios for obvious reasons.  They might still occur in small private clubs.

In retrospect, this might surprise some, but I do think the test I went through was a little excessive.  At the same time, I understand the point of the ordeal and some of it IS needed from time to time during the progression of a student to black belt, even if it doesn't necessarily have to come all at once at the end as an initiation.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 21, 2010)

should have put this with the comment on the torando kick  



Still, it does involve 2 things I hate.  Turning your back to your opponent, and leaving the ground.  I'll take a proper sliding side kick (PROPER being the key term) as my general kick of choice.  I can't throw it head height anymore, nearly any spot it hits, including the fool that tries to block it with his arms, it's going to hurt real bad.


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## dancingalone (Oct 21, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I'll take a proper sliding side kick (PROPER being the key term) as my general kick of choice.  I can't throw it head height anymore, nearly any spot it hits, including the fool that tries to block it with his arms, it's going to hurt real bad.



There are systems that train for something called a 'destruction', moving slightly to avoid the brunt of the assault and then engaging their hard points like elbows and such as that the attacker is damaged and then vulnerable to a quick counter.  No attack is bulletproof.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> There are systems that train for something called a 'destruction', moving slightly to avoid the brunt of the assault and then engaging their hard points like elbows and such as that the attacker is damaged and then vulnerable to a quick counter.  No attack is bulletproof.



Average thug on the street trying to take your wallet isn't trained like that.  Also, I tell my students to give him the freakin wallet.  Might not have their training, but might have a knife or gun.

I do think a simpler technique is more effective in SD situations that the flashy stuff people associate with TKD.  You have to be a very gifted athlete to pull off a tornado kick.  No doubt that with the speed/torque generated that it will hurt. 

Question though - is that striking with the ball of the foot or the inside edge like a cresent kick?


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## Disco (Oct 21, 2010)

When I look back, now that I'm OLDER, those good old days, really weren't all that good. Came home with lots of black and blues, bloody uniform, sprains and let us not forget the broken/fractured fingers and or toes. The rule of thumb, even in the military in those days, was pain is an excellent teacher. In a way they were correct and I most assuredly learned and remember from those days, but they did take their toll. Only until one gets on in life, does the effects of that type of training manifest itself. Even with the very best and educated training aspects, the human body will wear down under the prolonged repetitive actions we put it through. Only moderation can determine just how long one can function, properly, in any given endeavor. That being said, looking at the gymnastic aspects of the tornado kick and those like it, aside from a given unpractical SD proponent, the overall stress on the body is quite profound. As Terry pointed out, age places limitations. In my opinion, the proposed athletic good derived from doing such kicks is outweighed by the negatives stated above. The saying, "You fight as you train" weighs heavily in my mind. I'd hate to attempt a kick like that, have the opponent just step in on me and I'd lose balance and crash to the ground. Asphalt/Cement is very unforgiving under any circumstances. 

OK, now a little rant: I've watched post upon post, thread upon thread, bemoaning the state of TKD. The Kukkiwon transitions, the WTF attempting whatever, the USTU or whatever they call themselves, doing things not conducive to the general rank and file and it goes on and on. You want to talk about "Traditional TKD", well all those things were never in the beginning aspects of TKD. You, all of you, have allowed and are still allowing those things to run your TKD life. They, can't function without you. You on the other hand really don't need them, unless your under the delusion that you or yours has a CHANCE at Olympic glory. Buy a lotto ticket, you have a better chance at winning and it costs a heck of a lot less. You still insist on the dream, then go to the AAU program. At least it's home grown and your money is not going overseas. This relationship with these organizations relates to the battered wife syndrome. You get crapped on, but you still won't leave. Ad I said prior, NONE of these things were in TKD. We trained, learned, bled and were content with ourselves for the effort and knowledge put forth. In the end, that's really all there is and that's all there's supposed to be..........:asian:


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 21, 2010)

As to remembering the old days.. . 

  It took me 7 years to earn my black belt, and that was a little longer than most in those days but I was a "slow" learner.  Nearly 25 years since I've started, like many of you, have seen the decline in intensity in the training halls.  Like anything else in life, things have to change and adapt to fit a society.  Our society is bubble wrapped these days (helmets and knee pads for everything, rubberized playgrounds, etc.. .)  , so for obvious reasons we cannot train like we all did back in the 70's and 80's.  

  I'm also not advocating that we should train like we did in those days either.  I loved that training, it is the reason I'm still in it today.  That said, the tv/video game generation wouldn't know how to deal with it, let alone their parents.  For the adult students, they all have to go to work the next day.. .  It's all about purpose.  I think that the focus for many Korean instructors coming to the U.S. back in the 60's and 70's was still largely from a military survival perspective.  People in society today don't have that threat, so there isn't the need to train that hard.

This flux in training intensity has been there since ancient times.  Look at why the arts such as Tae Kyon fell out of existence.. . In times of peace, martial arts were seen as barbaric, and in some cases, outlawed.  When times of strife and war come, these arts rise again in intensity and popularity.  

For those of you that did live through the "old days" of training, it is important for us to carry that memory on, so that it isn't lost in the sands of time.  However, we cannot conduct everyday classes like that today.  

From a purely SD stand point, our society isn't dangerous enough for most people to train that hard.  The most important part of teaching SD, is teaching how to recognize a possible situation and how to avoid getting into it, and that doesn't require getting the **** beat out of you every week in class.  I admit that people are robbed, shot, stabbed, etc. everyday, but for most it doesn't hit close enough to home to warrant you training hard for a situation that would hopefully never come to realization.


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 21, 2010)

Carol said:


> No emphasis on protecting the face?
> 
> No emphasis on kicking and manipulating when the arms are up -- as that changes the body's center of balance?
> 
> ...


I can see where you are coming from but blocking that kick would probably result in a broken arm. The kick is not for everybody but when done properly you'd be surprised how often it lands and how powerful it is. Even if they do manage to scurry out of the way it usually leaves them so off balance that it allows for further attacks. Personally Im not a big fan of the kick but Ive seen it land too many times to dismiss it.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 22, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Average thug on the street trying to take your wallet isn't trained like that. Also, I tell my students to give him the freakin wallet. Might not have their training, but might have a knife or gun.


 
I teach them to toss the wallet a few feet to on side of the perp and run like heck in the other direction in a zig zag pattern yelling and screaming. 

Now the perp has a choice. Nice quiet $ or loud maniac.  Perps have hockey score IQs but good predatory instincts and will generaly pick the money.


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## Manny (Oct 22, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> should have put this with the comment on the torando kick
> 
> 
> 
> Still, it does involve 2 things I hate. Turning your back to your opponent, and leaving the ground. I'll take a proper sliding side kick (PROPER being the key term) as my general kick of choice. I can't throw it head height anymore, nearly any spot it hits, including the fool that tries to block it with his arms, it's going to hurt real bad.


 
Kicks like the tornado kick are pretty nice if you know how to deliver them and to land them properly, this si not easy and demands a lot of work inside dojang. Because of this IMO they are not well suited to perform in the streets in a real self defense scenario or CQB, why? very simple, under stress fine motor skills go down very fast you know, the adreanline rush, the tunel vision, shaking,loss hearing, etc,etc., that's why the simpler the tech the better.

We must remind MA gives us a set of tools and the proper use of tese tools can give us certain edge in the real world.

Because of the above written I would rather prefer practice and practice and practice the front trust kick till becomes so natural that I can't even think how I delivered it to the target. I think is easier to trust a front kick to the ba......s or stomach of a scumb bag than try to knock him down with a tornado kick.

Manny


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## Disco (Oct 22, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Question though - is that striking with the ball of the foot or the inside edge like a cresent kick?



It can be delivered either with the ball of the foot or the top of the foot. From observations, it looks like the majority of folks I've watched use the top of the foot. Lots of folks actually have a difficult time pulling the toes back to use the ball, so it's much easier to use the top of the foot.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 22, 2010)

I've never understood kicking with the top of the foot.  I tried taking Hapkido, the guy was very good, but he constantly got on my about how one should never kick with the ball of the foot.  He also talked down TKD a lot, which led me to quit his class.


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2010)

Kickin' it old school with the pride of Boston.

Mr. Pedro Xavier, Mr. Ronald Brady, Mr. Donald Brady.

Enjoy 

[yt]n_UNBzcwtlI[/yt]


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I've never understood kicking with the top of the foot.  I tried taking Hapkido, the guy was very good, but he constantly got on my about how one should never kick with the ball of the foot.  He also talked down TKD a lot, which led me to quit his class.



The difference is targets and weapons, essentially.  

Kicking with the ball of your foot is a slightly different weapon.  It focuses the impact in a small space...which can act as a force multiplier. Targeting a small target like a  kidney, with that kick, leading with the ball of the foot?  That's probably a fight ender.  

By comparison, the top of the foot is a broader target.  It travels a wider arc, so it can make for a more powerful kick overall.  Its the general purpose weapon, if you will.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 23, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I've never understood kicking with the top of the foot. I tried taking Hapkido, the guy was very good, but he constantly got on my about how one should never kick with the ball of the foot. He also talked down TKD a lot, which led me to quit his class.


 
Safety gear makes ball of the foot kicking more difficult for some kicks, Uing the top of the foot also gives a little more reach.  As a barefoot kick it may not be as desireaable but I have seen a freak of nature break 4 boards with the top of the foot. with shoes on it will work OK.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 23, 2010)

Carol said:


> The difference is targets and weapons, essentially.
> 
> Kicking with the ball of your foot is a slightly different weapon.  It focuses the impact in a small space...which can act as a force multiplier. Targeting a small target like a  kidney, with that kick, leading with the ball of the foot?  That's probably a fight ender.
> 
> By comparison, the top of the foot is a broader target.  It travels a wider arc, so it can make for a more powerful kick overall.  Its the general purpose weapon, if you will.




I understand the overall mechanics, I just don't know why someone would risk all those small bones on the top of the foot.  Earl is right about the foam padded gear making striking with the ball harder.


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## Carol (Oct 23, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I understand the overall mechanics, I just don't know why someone would risk all those small bones on the top of the foot.  Earl is right about the foam padded gear making striking with the ball harder.



If you're hitting with your instep (and not flexing your foot and jabbing your toe in the process) hitting a person with such a kick doesn't a lot of risk.   Many Filipino styles have that same kick, and we practice them repeatedly with a wavemaster xxl or muay thai bag, without injury.  In a live situation, you'll most likely be in socks and shoes/boots, which provide additional protection.


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## Disco (Oct 23, 2010)

Carol said:


> Kickin' it old school with the pride of Boston.
> 
> Mr. Pedro Xavier, Mr. Ronald Brady, Mr. Donald Brady.
> 
> ...




Well compared to the last Olympic offering I viewed, this made it look like apples to oranges. Thanks for video.......:highfive:


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 24, 2010)

so few hands up...


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 24, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> so few hands up...


we had our club championships on today , I didnt compete but went along to help out with setting up and helped padding up the students for the sparring section. We used the olympic sparring rules but none of the students are used to having points involved so it made for some great viewing. The thing that struck me the most was that its the mindset not the rules that make olympic sparring hard for many to get into to. The competitors all had their hands up, there was just as much punching as kicking and the contact was brutal. It was actually really entertaining and quite a few people commented on how good it was to watch. It made me realise that the olympic ruleset can make for some really good sparring but the way the rules are manipulated (for want of a better word) really detract from what otherwise is quite a good ruleset.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 25, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I've never understood kicking with the top of the foot. I tried taking Hapkido, the guy was very good, but he constantly got on my about how one should never kick with the ball of the foot. He also talked down TKD a lot, which led me to quit his class.


Interesting.  In hapkido, we were always instructed to never kick with the instep and instead to kick with the ball.

Daniel


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2010)

Sorry I've been away folks.  I didn't forget about this thread. 

Anyways...again, great posts all around.  Thank you.   A few things caught my eye, after reading over the last few pages.  

1) Some say that its hard to define exactly what is Traditional TKD.  I suppose everyones idea of tradition will vary, but I dont think its impossible to figure out.  Or is it?  I mean, you either gear your training more towards 'old school' or you gear it to sport.  Is sport considered traditional, in TKD circles?

2) Someone said that it took 7yrs to get a BB.  Out of fear of turning this into one of those other threads that've been beat 20 times over already, let me ask this...what changed and why did it change?  I mean, does it still take 7yrs today?

3) Self defense.  Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago?  Whether it is or isn't, what are the main differences, if any?


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## terryl965 (Oct 25, 2010)

Mike I can answer for me only, Question 2 no it never ever took seven years to get a BB, for me it is as always been the norm 4-5 years. This way you really understand the actual techs of every movement to that level.

Question 3 Self Defense for me has changed over the years, but with any good system it will change to adapt to the ever changing way of the world. One thing I see less of today in alot of TKD school when it comes to self defense is having full speed being done and having the opponet resist instead of just falling. I believ you must have some realism to really understand SD

No sportis not consider traditional TKD in any circlethat I am aware of. We teach both as you and alot of people know, some say it cannot be done but we have found a way to make it work for us and our school. We have traditional classes and sport classes we never mix them together but you can always do both with us.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 25, 2010)

MJS said:


> 1)I mean, you either gear your training more towards 'old school' or you gear it to sport.



I disagree I don't think it has to be an either/or - nor even a "geared towards".  We practice a lot of the "traditional" aspects (poomsae, destruction, pre-arranged sparring) but sparring is done in the modern sport way.  It depends whether you consider sport based doing purely sparring work using modern training methods or sparring in the WTF-style.

For me, we're doing the Kukkiwon style curriculum which includes traditional Taekwondo and modern sparring.



MJS said:


> 2)I mean, does it still take 7yrs today?


 
I agree with Terry, it never took 7 years (at least in my relatively short time in the art).  I started in 1986 and got my black belt at the end of 1990.  I'd say 3-5 years is normal (depending on how often you train - and I was training a LOT for the second half of that time period).



MJS said:


> 3) Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago?



We teach it fairly the same way.  I personally am supplementing Taekwondo with BJJ so I have a mixed view of self-defence, but in our school Taekwondo SD is the same it always has been.


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## StudentCarl (Oct 25, 2010)

MJS said:


> 1) Some say that its hard to define exactly what is Traditional TKD. I suppose everyones idea of tradition will vary, but I dont think its impossible to figure out. Or is it? I mean, you either gear your training more towards 'old school' or you gear it to sport. Is sport considered traditional, in TKD circles?


Sport is a later evoluation. I think common usage is that traditional taekwondo is not sport and predates sport. Many schools offer both, with different classes or programs for each. I get as much as I can from both. 



> 2) Someone said that it took 7yrs to get a BB. Out of fear of turning this into one of those other threads that've been beat 20 times over already, let me ask this...what changed and why did it change? I mean, does it still take 7yrs today?


Not sure where that number comes from, and don't think it's representative, but I don't think things necessarily changed. I bet masters do feel the increasing desire for immediate gratification in our society. I suspect some masters are influenced more than others. The real reason the time varies from master to master is probably because their curriculum varies, and a student's ability, effort, and time commitment varies. Time alone has never been the best measure of readiness for any belt, and the better masters I've met have a good bead on when a student is ready. Integrity is a factor too, I'm sure. I haven't seen it, but I'm sure there are black belts for sale out there somewhere.



> 3) Self defense. Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago? Whether it is or isn't, what are the main differences, if any?


In the last two years I went through the same colored belts I went through 30 years ago. IMO, much of the colored belt curriculum is about developing technique, coordination and fitness. I do think SD is taught similarly, with differences varying more due to individual master's preferences. For example, my master in the '70s emphasized one-step sparring for SD. My current master favors mixing olympic style sparring with boxing and hapkido techniques. 

Regards,
Carl


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## dortiz (Oct 25, 2010)

"3) Self defense. Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago? Whether it is or isn't, what are the main differences, if any? "

The biggest difference is not the art but the students. Yes, when I studied in the early 80s my group was more SD oriented. But it was for several reasons.The sport side was just begining on a large scale. So to most of us taking it, we walked in the door for one reason not even knowing of other sides. Today that has changed in that parents sign up their kids just for the sport aspect and adults now see physical fitness as a reason alone. Kids were rare, Sport was not on the adults mind and you just did not think of it as physical fitness as you do today. Given that most of the students were guys and they came in mainly to learn how to fight. 
So today you have a large sport venue that just did not exist before. Today you have more large scale gyms and many places promoting Martial Arts programs as the place to go to lose wieght. Today, folks also dont think about getting in to a fight like they did back in the 70s and 80s either. 
Given that, forget the schools focus..Its who is walking in the door and what they expect.
The art is generally the same and actually with much support probably improved in the technical aspects.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 25, 2010)

MJS said:


> Sorry I've been away folks.  I didn't forget about this thread.
> 
> Anyways...again, great posts all around.  Thank you.   A few things caught my eye, after reading over the last few pages.
> 
> ...




Yes, it took me 7 years to earn my BB, but like others have stated, that wasn't the norm even back in the 80's.  I was, a "slow learner."  However, IMO, what has changed is the standards, atleast in my association.  It was wasn't uncommon for people to fail their test, and although the minimum time requirement to earn your BB was 3 years, you weren't judged on time put in, you were judged on your preparedness (both mental and physical).  It took me 7 years because I was not there mentally; I was a kid and I talked too much and listened too little.  

My point of stating that it took me 7 years to earn my BB, is that now many students of all ages expect to test and pass as soon as they have put in the minimum amount of time required to test.  Somehow the focus has changed from "work hard, and earn it" to entitlement.  I'm sure that some blame should be placed on the instructors when it comes to this unfortunate fact, but I wonder how much is on society today.. . When all little leaguers get a trophy for just showing up.

I also wonder how much of it has to do with the age of our Kwan Jang Nim.  It seems you either get soft in your old age or contancorous, and he has gotten softer.  I'm not stating this as disrespectful, just an observation.  I wonder as instructors age, how focus changes.  Is it easier to slack standards and focus more on income, when your physical ability has declined at 80 years old?  I don't know, and I would certainly never ask.  But it makes me wonder.. .


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> I disagree I don't think it has to be an either/or - nor even a "geared towards". We practice a lot of the "traditional" aspects (poomsae, destruction, pre-arranged sparring) but sparring is done in the modern sport way. It depends whether you consider sport based doing purely sparring work using modern training methods or sparring in the WTF-style.


 
Only reason why I asked that, is because that is what I wanted to focus on in this thread....the Tradtional TKD or the more hardcore side of it.  As I said in my OP, it seems that there is a side of TKD that exists, but doesnt seem to be as much in the limelight as the sport side, at least IMO.  

I would imagine, and I may be wrong, but if you're more 'old school' then it would seem to that you'd gear the training to that as well.  So what I gather then is that you can have a mix of the 2.


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Sport is a later evoluation. I think common usage is that traditional taekwondo is not sport and predates sport. Many schools offer both, with different classes or programs for each. I get as much as I can from both.


 
OK.   So for those schools that offer both, I'm assuming that the way the classes are taught, will differ, depending on whether you're doing sport stuff or not?




> Not sure where that number comes from, and don't think it's representative, but I don't think things necessarily changed. I bet masters do feel the increasing desire for immediate gratification in our society. I suspect some masters are influenced more than others. The real reason the time varies from master to master is probably because their curriculum varies, and a student's ability, effort, and time commitment varies. Time alone has never been the best measure of readiness for any belt, and the better masters I've met have a good bead on when a student is ready. Integrity is a factor too, I'm sure. I haven't seen it, but I'm sure there are black belts for sale out there somewhere.


 
That number came from someone on here who said that was how long it took him to reach BB.  




> In the last two years I went through the same colored belts I went through 30 years ago. IMO, much of the colored belt curriculum is about developing technique, coordination and fitness. I do think SD is taught similarly, with differences varying more due to individual master's preferences. For example, my master in the '70s emphasized one-step sparring for SD. My current master favors mixing olympic style sparring with boxing and hapkido techniques.
> 
> Regards,
> Carl


 
Thanks for the reply.


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 25, 2010)

MJS said:


> Sorry I've been away folks.  I didn't forget about this thread.
> 
> Anyways...again, great posts all around.  Thank you.   A few things caught my eye, after reading over the last few pages.
> 
> ...


In answer to number 3, the SD aspect has not changed a lot over the years where I train, probably the main difference now is that more has been added to the curriculum. When our GM came out here and started teaching he had about 10 techs he would teach to use against a wrist grab, about 10 techs to use against a knife attack to the  midsection and so on and so on. Years later the club has evolved to a point where they teach literally hundreds of different self defence techs for different attacks and scenarios. We also have advanced black belts who may have studied some hapkido on the side and they also throw some ideas into the mix. We are taught heaps of these techs early on but are told to find the ones that feel the most natural and fluent to YOU and work with those ones and let them evolve to a point where you put your own flavour to them. All dan gradings require students to perform a coreographed "fight" at full speed/contact against one or multiple attackers where they defend against a variety of armed and unarmed attacks to demonstrate their knowledge both mentally and physically of the self defence techs . The club has done it this way for over 30 years and has not changed so to answwer your question, nothing has changed except for the addition of techniques over the years.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 26, 2010)

MJS said:


> Only reason why I asked that, is because that is what I wanted to focus on in this thread....the Tradtional TKD or the more hardcore side of it. As I said in my OP, it seems that there is a side of TKD that exists, but doesnt seem to be as much in the limelight as the sport side, at least IMO.
> 
> I would imagine, and I may be wrong, but if you're more 'old school' then it would seem to that you'd gear the training to that as well. So what I gather then is that you can have a mix of the 2.


The sport gets more time in the limelight because it is much more easily promoted.  Sport appeals to everyone.  Sport is the easiest way to promote taekwondo on an international level.  Olympic inclusion goes a lot further in this regard than does simply being another karate-like fighting system.

As for old school, the idea of sport being separate from self defense but still being a part of the curriclum goes back to Gen. Choi.  From what I recall, he felt that sport fostered a competitive and fighting spirit.  Self defense was a separate part of the curriculum.  

My only criticism of WTF sport is that it has become so specialized as a sport that it has lost any relevance to taekwondo as a martial art. 

Daniel


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 26, 2010)

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth (pre-Olympic, Olympic pending) my TKD class was separated into 2 groups; those that trained for sport and those that didn&#8217;t, and you could train in both if you liked.

I tried both but not for long, I went back to the strictly SD group

The difference I saw - both worked on forms by the way

Sport was focused on kicks and punches to areas that would give you points to win a match. 

SD was focused on kicks and punches to just about anywhere as well as working on close in fighting drills and take downs.

But even the sports focused group still trained the SD with us from time to time and if I am remembering correctly SD training was required to some extent.

The beginning of class we all trained the same stuff and we could train the same stuff during the entire class. However it was in the sparing that the differences were obvious. And it could be that the sports group with go spar and we would go work on SD stuff. 

The SD training side the sparing looked a lot nastier and you did have more options but I have to tell you when you watch a guy that is training for competition rip the top off of a kick bag with a side kick&#8230;sport or SD I do not want him to kick me. And I am guessing that kick would be VERY effective in the street.


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