# What's the difference between Taiji and wrestling, or boxing?



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2022)

I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a

- wrestler - to take his opponent down?
- boxer - to knock his opponent down?

If the goal are

- the same, the training method should be similar.
- different, what is a Taiji person goal?

What's your opinion on this?

Taiji:







Wrestling:






Boxing:


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2022)

we have been down this road before, and no I will not waste time looking for YouTube videos for you.....it is obvious you have something against what you "think" taijiquan is......I will not get into this again with you, there is more to *"real"* taijiquan than pushing, told you that several times. It has strikes, kicks, qinna and even shuaijiao, it has also been referred to as stand up wrestling....and if you look at Southern Wu style training in Toronto (Wu family)...they train break falls.... because of the shuaijiao..... something that sadly many taiji styles these days forgot....

now carry on dissing taijiquan that I believe you learned in Taiwan..... I will stop there


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2022)

Since you agree with me that "Taiji and wrestling share the same goal." There is nothing to argue between you and I.

In another forum, one person said, "Taiji and wrestling share the same goal". Someone disagreed and said, "If you feel taiji is not much different than grappling,,,for you it may not be...for others "myself" included it may be totally different...".

So I just wonder who's opinion belong to the majority?

1. Taiji and wrestling share the same goal, or
2. Taiji and wrestling share different goals?

Here is a clip to show that Taiji and wrestling share the same goal.


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## drop bear (Jun 2, 2022)

I would have said taijiquan and sumo were the closest in concept.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since you agree with me that "Taiji and wrestling share the same goal." There is nothing to argue between you and I.
> 
> In another forum, one person said, "Taiji and wrestling share the same goal". Someone disagreed and said, "If you feel taiji is not much different than grappling,,,for you it may not be...for others "myself" included it may be totally different...".
> 
> ...



Taiji shares similar goals with both wrestling and boxing.... Taijiquan just goes about it slightly differently.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I would have said taijiquan and sumo were the closest in concept.


You might be on to something there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Taiji shares similar goals with both wrestling and boxing.... Taijiquan just goes about it slightly differently.


I agree with you 100% on this. When Taiji people disagree with me, I just like to know their reasons.

Even the Bagua system shares the same goal with wrestling.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a
> 
> - wrestler - to take his opponent down?
> - boxer - to knock his opponent down?
> ...


Your statement relies on the assumption that there is only one way to reach a given goal. This is an assumption you seem to make quite often, but it is false.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Your statement relies on the assumption that there is only one way to reach a given goal. This is an assumption you seem to make quite often, but it is false.


He seems to see everything is black and white and take every move and concept literally. Like whether turning the shoulder 90deg or 120deg or 180deg when punching. Life is full of grey area depends on the situation. Using the punching example, to me, it's the concept of using the shoulder to add to the punch to get more power, in real fight, you cannot say you HAVE to turn at the exact angle every time to be this style or that style. 

It's like to me, Karate and Tae Kwon Do are very similar(like you said the goal), yes, if you analyze every kick and punch, they are very different like Tae Kwon Do always pick the knee up very high to kick and the pivot is a little different. But I've seen people in the class (TKD) that didn't pick the knee very high BECAUSE he was not as flexible. But he still kick the side kick very good, strong and fast. People's body are not built the same, there is no exact one way or the other. It's the concept like you have to pivot when you do the side kick(like turning the shoulder when punching) to maximize power, then you practice the best you can and call it a day.

Ha ha, I am surprised sumo and Taichi are close in concept!!! I have no opinion, I don't know either one.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I agree with you 100% on this. When Taiji people disagree with me,* I just like to know their reasons.*


1) they were shown wrong or trained wrong in the first place
2) they do not want to know
3) The believe the storie
4) any or all of the above

Had several "Taiji" people get upset, had one actually walk out in the middle of class when I ws discussing, not showing, the application of one form  he was interested in. The lady that walked out said, loudly "I'M HERE TO STUDY TAIJIQUAN, *NOT* KARATE" Then she stormed out. 

Was working with another gentleman with the 2 person form and I was trying to get him to understand he needed to complete the move or he could get hurt. He got very condescending and said" I train TAIJI...NOT martial arts" and he walked out....

Had others look shocked when the asked about applications and I told them, had one couple look almost sick after they asked me what this specific form in the Dao form was for...when I responded. "Block the spear, or staff, grab spear or staff, hit him in the throat with the dao"

People, especially in taijiquan, believe the myth or are only there for the health benefits, and that is fine, but then don't get upset if you, or someone else, asks and an answer is given


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> He got very condescending and said" I train TAIJI...NOT martial arts" and he walked out....


I have similar experience as you do.

Many years ago, I taught a Taiji class in Austin Community College. During the 1st day of the Taiji class, I showed the basic stances:

- horse stance for "open position stance".
- Bow-arrow stance for "diagnoal fly".
- 4-6 stance for "pull back".
- empty stance for "needle at the bottom of the sea".
- 7 star stance for "defend hand".
- golden rooster stance for "rooster on one leg".
- ...

Since it was the 1st class, I only showed the stance without the upperbody hand movement. One guy stood up, said, "This is not Taiji", and left.

Another time I played push hand with a Taij guy.

- I grabbed his wrist, He said "No grabbing".
- I used shin bite to control his leading leg. He said, "No leg".
- I got him into a head lock. He said "No brute force".
- When he pushed me, I used stealing step to escape, he said, "You lose."


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## Alan0354 (Jun 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> 1) they were shown wrong or trained wrong in the first place
> 2) they do not want to know
> 3) The believe the storie
> 4) any or all of the above
> ...


Seems like there are lot of people are very close minded in MA. I like that you show other styles in your class. The TKD school I went to for a few years was really kick boxing strongly influenced by Bruce Lee ( it was 1984). So we really didn't spend a lot of time in traditional TKD. We only practice those forms two weeks before the belt test, then dropped them after the test for another few months!!

MA is constantly evolving in the last 50 years, even the expert are trying to learn and mix in other techniques. I remember my teacher invited a Jujitsu instructor to teach the class once a while. That to me was vision, almost 10 years before Gracie cleaned house. We all got to learn a little of it. Those that are close minded are only hurting themselves.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> 1) they were shown wrong or trained wrong in the first place
> 2) they do not want to know
> 3) The believe the storie
> 4) any or all of the above
> ...


I once saw a mom rip her son out of a class because we were practicing Lion Dance, and she said it was Devil worship.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I once saw a mom rip her son out of a class because we were practicing Lion Dance, and she said it was Devil worship.


Should have asked her if she wanted to join your D&D game after...


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Should have asked her if she wanted to join your D&D game after...


She wasn't my type.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> 1) they were shown wrong or trained wrong in the first place
> 2) they do not want to know
> 3) The believe the storie
> 4) any or all of the above
> ...


Sifu Woo said once “ you can see 1,000,000 Chinese doing Tai Chi in Beijing and 999,999 aren’t doing a damn thing.“ His question to students was always “ can you do it while I hit you?” That is harsh, but honestly I can’t tell you how many Tai chi people don’t even know you can reverse the form and do it to the left. His standards were impossibly high, but I guess that’s the only way to keep moving the mountain with a spoon for as long as it takes to get high skill. I will hope to get a taste of that some day. 25 years feels like I just started to get a very basic understanding.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sifu Woo said once “ you can see 1,000,000 Chinese doing Tai Chi in Beijing and 999,999 aren’t doing a damn thing.“ His question to students was always “ can you do it while I hit you?” That is harsh, but honestly I can’t tell you how many Tai chi people don’t even know you can reverse the form and do it to the left. His standards were impossibly high, but I guess that’s the only way to keep moving the mountain with a spoon for as long as it takes to get high skill. I will hope to get a taste of that some day. 25 years feels like I just started to get a very basic understanding.


Funny you say this.  I do all my weapons on the left as well as the right.  That includes fundamentals and the forms.  

I also do some of my empty-hand forms on the left as well.  Some are highly one-sided so those get done on the other side, some I am still working on.  But I feel it’s a good exercise for the brain.  Your weak side will always be weaker, but that’s ok, you can still develop functional skill. 

And because zombies.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have similar experience as you do.
> 
> Many years ago, I taught a Taiji class in Austin Community College. During the 1st day of the Taiji class, I showed the basic stances:
> 
> ...



Was at a push hands seminar at YMAA with Dr Yang, when he was still in Boston. i was pushing with one of his students who continually told me, "You can't do that" I asked why so he called Dr Yang over and told him what I was doing and then said "He can't do that" to which Dr Yang said..."why?". Dr Yang then did push hands with me to show his student what to do...and promptly dropped me to my knees, multiple times with pressure points and qinna.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I once saw a mom rip her son out of a class because we were practicing Lion Dance, and she said it was Devil worship.



Was once asked by a bunch of ministers to teach then Taijiquan...they were all for it...until I told them what it would cost...all of a sudden it became a religious problem for them to study something that was based in Taoism......


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> i was pushing with one of his students who continually told me, "You can't do that"


This is the main reason for me to start this thread. I would like to get respond from Taiji people about the reason that why "you can't do that"?

One time I dragged a Taiji guy in circle. He also told me, "You can't do that."

I though I followed the Taiji principle to borrow his yielding force. I pulled him. He yielded and came to me. I helped him to come toward me more than he wanted to.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Funny you say this.  I do all my weapons on the left as well as the right.  That includes fundamentals and the forms.
> 
> I also do some of my empty-hand forms on the left as well.  Some are highly one-sided so those get done on the other side, some I am still working on.  But I feel it’s a good exercise for the brain.  Your weak side will always be weaker, but that’s ok, you can still develop functional skill.
> 
> And because zombies.


I don’t see the non dominant side as weak, I see it as softer and more capable of yielding. That said, I strive to even out any difference. I am right hand dominant but I shoot handguns on a much higher skill and accuracy level when shooting with my left hand. That includes from the hip and when moving. I thoroughly agree that this is primarily a good brain exercise... Brains! It’s what’s for dinner. They will starve if they depend on me.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I don’t see the non dominant side as weak, I see it as softer and more capable of yielding. That said, I strive to even out any difference. I am right hand dominant but I shoot handguns on a much higher skill and accuracy level when shooting with my left hand. That includes from the hip and when moving. I thoroughly agree that this is primarily a good brain exercise... Brains! It’s what’s for dinner. They will starve if they depend on me.


I’ve gotten to the point where I feel nearly ambidextrous with the spear.  I am almost equally comfortable practicing the form on either side.   Same with single-end staff.  Similar for dao when working fundamentals, but less so on the form.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 2, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I do all my weapons on the left as well as the right.


For the same technique, I train my right side for offense, and I train my left side for defense.

For example, I use

- right under hook to throw my opponent.
- left under hook to counter my opponent's right over hook.

- right leg block to throw my opponent.
- left leg block to counter my opponent's right leg block.


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## Unkogami (Jun 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a
> 
> - wrestler - to take his opponent down?
> - boxer - to knock his opponent down?
> ...


I am not sure you understand the goal of a wrestler or a boxer,  and that video is NOT of a wrestler.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the main reason for me to start this thread. I would like to get respond from Taiji people about the reason that why "you can't do that"?
> 
> One time I dragged a Taiji guy in circle. He also told me, "You can't do that."
> 
> I though I followed the Taiji principle to borrow his yielding force. I pulled him. He yielded and came to me. I helped him to come toward me more than he wanted to.



Because many never take push hands beyond the drill. We trained stationary single hand, stationary two hands, 3 step, 4 corner, something I call 1 step, and freestyle. But there are things to avoid, the use of to much force, however knowing how to respond to to force is a good thing to know


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 3, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I am not sure you understand the goal of a wrestler or a boxer,  and that video is NOT of a wrestler.


It’s a video of Chinese wrestling, shuai jiao. KFW is using wrestling in its general sense, not referring to a specific western system like folk style or Greco-Roman.


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## Unkogami (Jun 3, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It’s a video of Chinese wrestling, shuai jiao. KFW is using wrestling in its general sense, not referring to a specific western system like folk style or Greco-Roman.


The goal in wrestling is to control your opponent's position. The goal in boxing is to knock your opponent out. And that video didn't look very shuai jiao to me. Maybe too short.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve gotten to the point where I feel nearly ambidextrous with the spear.  I am almost equally comfortable practicing the form on either side.   Same with single-end staff.  Similar for dao when working fundamentals, but less so on the form.


At one time I did all my Yang style forms right and left. All xingyiquan 5 elements form are trained right and left as well as backwards, forwards, reverse leg, with all footwork applied to every element


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I once saw a mom rip her son out of a class because we were practicing Lion Dance, and she said it was Devil worship.


Were some people speaking Cantonese? I hear that’s the devil’s tongue according to some.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Were some people speaking Cantonese? I hear that’s the devil’s tongue according to some.


Honestly?

It's the drumming.  Lion drumming is basically a war drum, it's pretty scary if you're not familiar with it.

Sometimes even the shopkeepers and bystanders in Chinatown who ARE familiar with it, run away with fear in their eyes.  Hey man, I don't believe in luck or demons either, but it's a sight to see in the middle of the city.

So, I forgave her.  People are easily spooked.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>


Just bumping this because it's the best thing in the thread so far.

That was some mad freaking internal kung fu strike by Tyson.  That's a palm strike, right?  

He's clearly trained the Yang essential form!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve gotten to the point where I feel nearly ambidextrous with the spear.  I am almost equally comfortable practicing the form on either side.   Same with single-end staff.  Similar for dao when working fundamentals, but less so on the form.


I have never felt 100% on the Yang long form to the left. I go off trail sometimes. Choreography has always been my weak point. I focus on fundamentals, maybe to a fault. Lots of work and miles to go…


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Were some people speaking Cantonese? I hear that’s the devil’s tongue according to some.



Well that is what ANY sane Mandarin speaker would say......


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 3, 2022)

I mean, damn.

"Short chopping right hand" sounds about right.  Tyson barely moved and it's one of the greatest KOs in history.  You still feel this KO ten, twenty seconds in.  Mike even feels bad for a moment and runs over to pick up Botha.  What a smoothie.

If this was a Tai Chi move, I'd name it Crazy Immortal Swims Through the Mountain.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 3, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well that is what ANY sane Mandarin speaker would say......


Exactly.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Just bumping this because it's the best thing in the thread so far.
> 
> That was some mad freaking internal kung fu strike by Tyson.  That's a palm strike, right?
> 
> He's clearly trained the Yang essential form!


We can clearly see that he puts his body behind his punch. When people ask, "What's a good punch?" This is a good punch.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I am not sure you understand the goal of a wrestler or a boxer,  and that video is NOT of a wrestler.


Have you seen Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao, or Shuai Jiao) before?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2022)

I truly can't tell any difference between the Taiji "diagonal flying" and the Chinese wrestling "body squeeze".

Taiji "diagonal flying".






Chinese wrestling "body squeeze".


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## Flying Crane (Jun 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I have never felt 100% on the Yang long form to the left. I go off trail sometimes. Choreography has always been my weak point. I focus on fundamentals, maybe to a fault. Lots of work and miles to go…


Sure but the fundamentals are what really matter.  You could spend all of your time working fundamentals and learning to apply them without ever learning a single form.  And your kung fu would be way ahead of the vast majority who inherit the entire system and practice a blue billion forms without any foundation.  And your kung fu would still be true to the style, meaning: just because you didn’t learn the forms in no way means you didn’t learn that particular kung fu method.  But what you learned, you made truly functional. 

I still screw up sometimes on the left side of the empty hand forms.  But so what?  Perfection does not exist in this stuff.  It is always just something to keep working on.  It’s a process that never ends.  

And that is actually a comforting thought.  When I look at the night sky through my telescope, the vastness of it all is something I find comforting.  In all of what exists, it gives me perspective and reminds me that my problems are not so big in this vast universe.  Likewise, your kung fu, including your forms, are never perfect, never “done”, they are simply to be returned to over and over, and that is the process of never-ending practice.  But I can throw off the pressure of thinking I need to be perfect.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> your kung fu, including your forms, are never perfect,


Even if you may make your form to be perfect, when you get older, your form will start to get not perfect day by day.

This is why I strongly suggest people to record what they can do on video. Don't wait until one day that you no longer be able to do it.

A: Dear master! Can you do Bruce Lee's triple kicks combo?
B: I can't do it today. But I have a video to show that I could do it when I was younger.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure but the fundamentals are what really matter.  You could spend all of your time working fundamentals and learning to apply them without ever learning a single form.  And your kung fu would be way ahead of the vast majority who inherit the entire system and practice a blue billion forms without any foundation.  And your kung fu would still be true to the style, meaning: just because you didn’t learn the forms in no way means you didn’t learn that particular kung fu method.  But what you learned, you made truly functional.
> 
> I still screw up sometimes on the left side of the empty hand forms.  But so what?  Perfection does not exist in this stuff.  It is always just something to keep working on.  It’s a process that never ends.
> 
> And that is actually a comforting thought.  When I look at the night sky through my telescope, the vastness of it all is something I find comforting.  In all of what exists, it gives me perspective and reminds me that my problems are not so big in this vast universe.  Likewise, your kung fu, including your forms, are never perfect, never “done”, they are simply to be returned to over and over, and that is the process of never-ending practice.  But I can throw off the pressure of thinking I need to be perfect.


Very well said. Thanks for that. Sometimes I feel that I should be farther along my path than I am, for multiple reasons. Patience. Virtuous harmony. Courage. Resolution of conflict. The Tao. All things I need to constantly remind myself of.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Even if you may make your form to be perfect, when you get older, your form will start to get not perfect day by day.
> 
> This is why I strongly suggest people to record what they can do on video. Don't wait until one day that you no longer be able to do it.
> 
> ...


Except that isn’t why I practice. It doesn’t matter to me who sees it. Same with my horimono, it isn’t there to show it off.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Very well said. Thanks for that. Sometimes I feel that I should be farther along my path than I am, for multiple reasons. Patience. Virtuous harmony. Courage. Resolution of conflict. The Tao. All things I need to constantly remind myself of.


We are all simply a work in progress.  It is easy to forget that, and we need to be reminded from time-to-time.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Except that isn’t why I practice. It doesn’t matter to me who sees it. Same with my horimono, it isn’t there to show it off.


The only people meant to see your forms or your practice methods are your teachers who taught you, your classmates with whom you train, and your students to whom you teach it.  It was never meant to be performance art.  Wanting to see someone’s forms is kinda like wanting to buy a house but insisting on looking at the builder’s toolkit.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Except that isn’t why I practice. It doesn’t matter to me who sees it. Same with my horimono, it isn’t there to show it off.


One day when you are 80 years old, you try to teach your students a technique but you no longer be able to do it well. Instead of for your students to learn a 80 years old man's technique (speed is slow, balance is weak), you can show your old video. You then tell your students that they should do like your old video and not like what you are doing today. It's sad. That day will come to everybody.

In my last class, I taught my students the "leg twist, leg block" combo. After the class, I send them my old video. To remain single leg balance after throwing just get harder and harder for my age.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 3, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One day when you are 80 years old, you try to teach your students a technique but you no longer be able to do it well. Instead of for your students to learn a 80 years old man's technique (speed is slow, balance is weak), you can show your old video. You then tell your students that they should do like your old video and not like what you are doing today. It's sad. That day will come to everybody.
> 
> In my last class, I taught my students the "leg twist, leg block" combo. After the class, I send them my old video. To remain single leg balance after throwing just get harder and harder for my age.


You look and sound to be in excellent shape. We all get old, I don’t worry about things like that. I actually want to live to do that. I will teach until I can’t. It’s that simple. I do hope to transmit to as many students as possible, a thing that is consistently worth their time and money. I also hope they make it their own and that some of them teach.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We all get old, I don’t worry about things like that.


If Bruce Lee is still alive, he should be 82 years old today. If his students want to learn his "三不落地 3 non-landing kicks" combo, can he still teach it? It may be difficult if not impossible.

With his movie clips online, his students can still learn.

His "三不落地 3 non-landing kicks" combo is one of my favor self-training drills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One day when you are 80 years old, you try to teach your students a technique but you no longer be able to do it well. Instead of for your students to learn a 80 years old man's technique (speed is slow, balance is weak), you can show your old video. You then tell your students that they should do like your old video and not like what you are doing today. It's sad. That day will come to everybody.
> 
> In my last class, I taught my students the "leg twist, leg block" combo. After the class, I send them my old video. To remain single leg balance after throwing just get harder and harder for my age.


If I can’t do a technique, and don’t have a student who can demonstrate for new students, a video doesn’t fix the problem, in my opinion. 

I’d always hoped I’d develop long-term students, for this reason. At this point, it’s very likely I’ll never pass along anything like my full curriculum. Others in the art will be around to keep it going, even if it’s not the same as mine.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If I can’t do a technique, and don’t have a student who can demonstrate for new students, a video doesn’t fix the problem, in my opinion.


A: You need to spend more time in stretching so you can do a floor split.
B: Dear teacher! You ask us to stretch. Can you do it yourself?
A: I will never ask you to train something that I have not trained myself. I can't do it today, but I have a video to prove that I went through this training myself. 

Sometime even a picture is good enough.


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## BigDon (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a
> 
> - wrestler - to take his opponent down?
> - boxer - to knock his opponent down?


no, i could do Billy blanks kick boxing "fighting"  but can´t call it real fighting. 
Taiji is a form of fitness in the same light ..no use to a cage fighter or anyone looking for real action!


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## BigDon (Jun 4, 2022)

Hmm...  the Chi was flowing


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 4, 2022)

BigDon said:


> no, i could do Billy blanks kick boxing "fighting"  but can´t call it real fighting.
> Taiji is a form of fitness in the same light ..no use to a cage fighter or anyone looking for real action!


We have a couple of people here with a LOT of taji experience who will disagree with you. On what training and experience do you base this statement?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> We have a couple of people here with a LOT of taji experience who will disagree with you. On what training and experience do you base this statement?



There is also someone here on MT who knows Billy Blanks and he will tell you how good a fighter Billy is.... however his kick boxing videos are for fitness.

I also had a real long discussion with an MMA fighter several years ago. He was training Qigong and was very interested in Taijiquan. As he said "I will train anything that will help me win" Qigong allowed him to relax more. Also talked with a long time Chen guy who went to train at an MMA gym. He was having a blast learning how to better use his taijiquan and the MMA guys were having a great time learning how ot overcome his rooting. 

But with that said nobody from taijiquan would jump into a cage match, don't know many martial artists who would. But I am ok with folks thinking it does not work, it is to my advantage. However with that said, the majority of taijiquan folks these days is for health.... but for a few of us, it is more. I was a martial art but very few teachers these days know the martial arts of it. 

My Shigong (teacher's teacher) use to always say taijiquan was for health. But he was also taking into that, you get in a fight, you stay healthy by defending yourself. He was also very big into qinna.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> We have a couple of people here with a LOT of taji experience who will disagree with you. On what training and experience do you base this statement?



Do those people who have that opinion show examples or provide evidence?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2022)

BigDon said:


> Taiji is a form of fitness in the same light ..no use to a cage fighter or anyone looking for real action!


Ther are many selections here:

1. Taiji is a combat art. People train it for fighting.
2. Taiji is a combat art. People don't train it for fighting.
3. Taiji is a non-combat art. People train it for fighting.
4. Taiji is a non-combat art. People don't train it for fighting.

I'm with 1. May be you are with 4.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 4, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Do those people who have that opinion show examples or provide evidence?


Sure. I know you tend to discount any evidence that you disagree with, though, so you'll no doubt insist that they don't.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Do those people who have that opinion show examples or provide evidence?


Most Taiji people also cross train different MA systems. When you take your opponent down, sometime it's difficult to tell whether you use a

- Taiji takedown, or
- wrestling takedown.

In the following clips, did they use wrestling takedown, or Taiji takedown?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. I know you tend to discount any evidence that you disagree with, though, so you'll no doubt insist that they don't.



I just never get given any.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 4, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I just never get given any.


Thank you for proving my point.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Thank you for proving my point.



This is the problem. 

If you wanted to prove your point. Your best method would be to find somewhere I didn't accept evidence. Quote that and fly it in my face. 

Not. In a conversation where I say I don't get given evidence, provide me no evidence and then say you have proved something with that method. 

Sometimes I seriously think I am getting trolled in these conversations.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2022)

Something to take into account..... your desire for proof does not necessarily produce in someone the need, or desire to give you any


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 4, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Something to take into account..... your desire for proof does not necessarily produce in someone the need, or desire to give you any


People are gonna believe what they want to believe.  They are welcome to it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jun 4, 2022)

I found the real Taichi.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2022)

A: How do you use your boxing to end a fight?
B: I knock my opponent out.

A: How do you use your wrestling to end a fight?
C: I let my opponent's head to meet the ground.

A: How do you use your Taiji to end a fight?
D: I ...

What will be your respond if you are D?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: How do you use your boxing to end a fight?
> B: I knock my opponent out.
> 
> A: How do you use your wrestling to end a fight?
> ...



Don't know, depends on what the other guy does, there is no such thing as he does 'A' I do 'B' in any real fight. Taiji could strike, kick, throw, lock....depends


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: How do you use your boxing to end a fight?
> B: I knock my opponent out.
> 
> A: How do you use your wrestling to end a fight?
> ...


Probably by chuckling at B and C for having some a simplistic, black and white, either/or approach to their training.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Don't know, depends on what the other guy does, there is no such thing as he does 'A' I do 'B' in any real fight. Taiji could strike, kick, throw, lock....depends


This is why I believe in Taiji, there is something missing after the push hand training.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I believe in Taiji, there is something missing after the push hand training.


explain


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I believe in Taiji, there is something missing after the push hand training.


San Shou sparring is what's missing from many kung fu schools (for lots of different reasons, but in the case of Tai Chi mostly because of the lack of good teachers with combat experience).

And if you look at a lot of "Tai Chi San Shou" videos online you'll see what I mean.

This video illustrates decent form and Tai chi Quan principles.  But the "San Shou" component is plain silly.  This is for show, but it'll look pretty.






What you need is someone who trains to fight, and also learns Tai Chi, to explain how the real world works, why Xu Xiaodong kicked butt, and why it's important to learn other fighting arts if want to be really good at your own.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> San Shou sparring is what's missing from many kung fu schools (for lots of different reasons, but in the case of Tai Chi mostly because of the lack of good teachers with combat experience).
> 
> And if you look at a lot of "Tai Chi San Shou" videos online you'll see what I mean.
> 
> ...



Here's the thing, Taijiquan in applications rarely looks like the posture, or rarely uses all elements of a posture. And for the record, there are blocks, strikes, elbows, kicks and knees in taijiquan.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 4, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Something to take into account..... your desire for proof does not necessarily produce in someone the need, or desire to give you.



Well no. I assumed it wouldn't.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> explain


The skill that you have developed through the push hand training may not be sufficient to deal with your opponent's fast "groing kick, face punch, right hook, left hook" combo.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: How do you use your boxing to end a fight?
> B: I knock my opponent out.
> 
> A: How do you use your wrestling to end a fight?
> ...


I tickle them. I’m famous for my tickling. It’s in my footwork and timing. I have touted this ability before. Nobody listens to me, its like I’m speaking Cantonese or something.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I believe in Taiji, there is something missing after the push hand training.


What is it?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The skill that you have developed through the push hand training may not be sufficient to deal with your opponent's fast "groing kick, face punch, right hook, left hook" combo.


That’s why I also train another style and apply the movement principles from one to another. In the end it’s just motion, practicing one doesn’t preclude other motions.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jun 4, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Here's the thing, Taijiquan in applications rarely looks like the posture, or rarely uses all elements of a posture. And for the record, there are blocks, strikes, elbows, kicks and knees in taijiquan.


Appearances can be..deceptive.

Tai Chi can kill people.  The whole body is one weapon, moving uniform.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What is it?


How to

- close the distance?
- make arm contact?
- avoid making arm contact?
- finish a fight after pushing opponent away?
- ...

Only training Taiji form and Taiji PH are not enough.


----------



## Unkogami (Jun 5, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you seen Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao, or Shuai Jiao) before?
> 
> ....


Many times.


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

So is yoga Indian fighting too?


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)




----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The skill that you have developed through the push hand training may not be sufficient to deal with your opponent's fast "groing kick, face punch, right hook, left hook" combo.



Push hands is only a tool, one of many in taijiquan. It is not taijiquan fighting


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Push hands is only a tool, one of many in taijiquan. It is not taijiquan fighting


So can you tell us when you used all these wonderful techniques in a real situation.  What exactly happened? Did you neutralise the negative energy with your chi?


Xue Sheng said:


> Push hands is only a tool, one of many in taijiquan. It is not taijiquan fighting


Hmmm....very efficient


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How to
> 
> - close the distance?
> - make arm contact?
> ...


That is true, but that is not a complete training. Similarly, break falls and randori is not a complete grappling training.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I tickle them. I’m famous for my tickling. It’s in my footwork and timing. I have touted this ability before. Nobody listens to me, its like I’m speaking Cantonese or something.


In the Moo Duk Kwan, we train anti-tickle techniques. It's been years since anyone was able to tickle me.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> In the Moo Duk Kwan, we train anti-tickle techniques. It's been years since anyone was able to tickle me.


I’ve undergone a rigorous anti-tickling Iron Shirt qi gong training.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> So can you tell us when you used all these wonderful techniques in a real situation.  What exactly happened? Did you neutralise the negative energy with your chi?
> 
> Hmmm....very efficient
> View attachment 28522


What is your training and experience? You clearly need a tickling.


Dirty Dog said:


> In the Moo Duk Kwan, we train anti-tickle techniques. It's been years since anyone was able to tickle me.


oh yeah? I’ve heard these claims before. I am the Godzilla of the tickle game.


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What is your training and experience? You clearly need a tickling.


I have no black belt because I don't need one. Just raw experience which some dream about in their Dojo.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve undergone a rigorous anti-tickling Iron Shirt qi gong training.


Here we go, Now everyone wants into my Southern style Tic Kle Do class.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I have no black belt because I don't need one. Just raw experience which some dream about in their Dojo.


That isn’t what I asked you. I asked what your training and experience is.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I have no black belt because I don't need one. Just raw experience which some dream about in their Dojo.


How long has it been since you had a good tickle?


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That isn’t what I asked you. I asked what your training and experience is.


I answered real fighting


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I have no black belt because I don't need one. Just raw experience which some dream about in their Dojo.


How do you feel about being tickled by a grown man?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I answered real fighting


Playing patty cake with your nanny doesn't really count...


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> How long has it been since you had a good tickle?


Are you hitting on me bro?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I answered real fighting


Could you elaborate on what you define as real fighting?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Playing patty cake with your nanny doesn't really count...🤣


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Playing patty cake with your nanny doesn't really count...


Most experts I've seen are overweight middle aged men who have zero experience. They normally teach kids or people who believe it all. Honestly met a few of these "masters". Fancy writing on their black belt specifically made to fit their expanding chi belly. Showing the gullible people how defeat a knife when they themselves have never tried to use it.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> Are you hitting on me bro?


 You would know for sure if that was the case.


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Could you elaborate on what you define as real fighting?


Certainly,  not Taijiquan


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You would know for sure if that was the case.


I'll pass thank you.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> Most experts I've seen are overweight middle aged men who have zero experience. They normally teach kids or people who believe it all. Honestly met a few of these "masters". Fancy writing on their black belt specifically made to fit their expanding chi belly. Showing the gullible people how defeat a knife when they themselves have never tried to use it.


Are you seeking lessons? Plenty of young thin guys around here if that’s your thing.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I'll pass thank you.


It wasn’t an offer. Why are you here if you don’t want to discuss?


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Are you seeking lessons? Plenty of young thin guys around here if that’s your thing.


Fitness is actually a huge part of fighting


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It wasn’t an offer. Why are you here if you don’t want to discuss?


I am ..you're assuming something about my sexuality 
And being very immature


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> Certainly,  not Taijiquan


Saying what it isn’t is not the same as definition. Do I have setting on Cantonese again?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I am ..you're assuming something about my sexuality
> And being very immature


It's a martial arts forum. Why would you think an offer to hit you has anything to do with sexuality?


----------



## BigDon (Jun 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a martial arts forum. Why would you think an offer to hit you has anything to do with sexuality?


Nice try  big boy.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I am ..you're assuming something about my sexuality
> And being very immature


I beg your pardon? Sexuality was not mentioned in any context. I ‘m sorry you feel that way. I like to joke around, which is what I was doing here. Let that sink in, then reread the posts. I’m not funny, my timing is also terrible, but I am a monster at the callback.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> Nice try  big boy.


Dirty has been suffering my jokes for quite some time. He got the context immediately.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> I have no black belt because I don't need one. Just raw experience which some dream about in their Dojo.


What is your intent in this post?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a martial arts forum. Why would you think an offer to hit you has anything to do with sexuality?


Strictly speaking that’s a style vs style argument. We know I don’t believe in that. It’s the individual, and … perhaps the training method as applied to the partner, er student.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> What is your intent in this post?


To entertain and delight me before I go teach and tell my students about this convo. And then laugh and laugh and laugh. I like him. Can we keep him?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> Fitness is actually a huge part of fighting


Ok here is an erudite thought surfacing… go on.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> Most experts I've seen are overweight middle aged men who have zero experience. They normally teach kids or people who believe it all. Honestly met a few of these "masters". Fancy writing on their black belt specifically made to fit their expanding chi belly. Showing the gullible people how defeat a knife when they themselves have never tried to use it.


You have been hanging out with the wrong crowd.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Saying what it isn’t is not the same as definition. Do I have setting on Cantonese again?


No, his idea of Taijiquan is just based on inexperience with it.

Clearly, he's a pit fighter.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2022)

BigDon said:


> So can you tell us when you used all these wonderful techniques in a real situation.  What exactly happened? Did you neutralise the negative energy with your chi?



Really have no desire to feed into this, or get into a detailed discussion with you on something you are attacking, do not understand, and are using silly videos to make your point. Spent years in security, hospitals, college and government, months of that working for a hospital with a mental health and detox unit, I stopped tracking physical confrontations after 60 in 3 months, used many things I learned in Taijiquan, mostly redirecting force and qinna. Have no idea if Qi had anything to do with it.... There is no projection of "Qi" in traditional Taijiquan, and the claim by anyone doing so is considered rather silly. Best description of Qi (internal energy) I have ever heard is, strong Qi you're healthy, weak qi you're sick, no Qi you're dead.

As for the video you show, first that is not push hands, push hands is a training tool, not sparing, not fighting. So your comment, based on that video, are not applicable to my post about push hands, since that is decidedly not push hands.

You really do not seem to know what you are talking about here.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It wasn’t an offer. Why are you here if you don’t want to discuss?



After reading through this this thread, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say trolling. Also going out on a limb abs say he's just another armchair MAist...... not worth getting into it with him.....


----------



## Alan0354 (Jun 6, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Really have no desire to feed into this, or get into a detailed discussion with you on something you are attacking, do not understand, and are using silly videos to make your point. Spent years in security, hospitals, college and government, months of that working for a hospital with a mental health and detox unit, I stopped tracking physical confrontations after 60 in 3 months, used many things I learned in Taijiquan, mostly redirecting force and qinna. Have no idea if Qi had anything to do with it.... There is no projection of "Qi" in traditional Taijiquan, and the claim by anyone doing so is considered rather silly. Best description of Qi (internal energy) I have ever heard is, strong Qi you're healthy, weak qi you're sick, no Qi you're dead.
> 
> As for the video you show, first that is not push hands, push hands is a training tool, not sparing, not fighting. So your comment, based on that video, are not applicable to my post about push hands, since that is decidedly not push hands.
> 
> You really do not seem to know what you are talking about here.


I really don't believe in the Qi stuff, I think it's just from the older days where people were easier to be fooled. The closest thing I can think of is described in CHINKUCHI





Where combining the movement of the whole body and explode in perfect timing. IT'S ALL PHYSICS. Just adding all the force together at one moment and it's like an explosion.

It's easy to talk, doing it is another story, it's not so easy even though the concept is very simple.

When I was in Hong Kong, I heard enough of the BS from Kung Fu people.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I really don't believe in the Qi stuff, I think it's just from the older days where people were easier to be fooled. The closest thing I can think of is described in CHINKUCHI
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the idea with the Qi is it is supposed to be a vehicle towards training a specific trait. So it can be be just so long as it has a real effect.

Now there is only speculation that it has any effect. So there is still that issue.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I really don't believe in the Qi stuff, I think it's just from the older days where people were easier to be fooled. The closest thing I can think of is described in CHINKUCHI
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's similar to my understanding of ki/chi. I still use it as a shorthand when teaching - once you've had the discussion of what it "really is" (per my understanding), it's just a way to cover some concepts with a single (one-syllable) word.


----------



## MR. SERNA (Jun 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a
> 
> - wrestler - to take his opponent down?
> - boxer - to knock his opponent down?
> ...


It is an internal art form, known as shadow boxing.

Having been trained in Tai chi chuan


Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a
> 
> - wrestler - to take his opponent down?
> - boxer - to knock his opponent down?
> ...


It is internal training in kungfu known as shadow boxing.

It can be applied in combat and is the highest level of application, and only a handful are trained due to the devastating application.

Those who have been trained at that level guard heavily against showing off or displaying movements out of respect to the past masters and masters which are few these days.

Having said that you should ask if anyone has ever experienced the effects of combat with a Tai Chi Chuan man. I doubt you will find anyone who will share their experience.

Mr. Serna


----------



## drop bear (Jun 7, 2022)

Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status. 

It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.


----------



## zzj (Jun 7, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I always want to ask a Taiji person about this question. Does a Taiji guy share the same goal as a
> 
> - wrestler - to take his opponent down?
> - boxer - to knock his opponent down?
> ...



Today's Taijiquan is a 'broad church', different styles and schools will give you a different answer. Perhaps the only unifying view is that it is an 'internal art' conforming to the principles set out in the 'Taijiquan classics'. In any case, most practitioners and lineages are so far removed from actual fighting that they probably cannot tell you how the art is supposed to translate to actual usage.

That being said, my personal answer would be

- to primarily take the opponent down
- to push away so I may escape or to knock down if necessary/opportunity avails.

Training method differs-
- Wrestling/Shuaijiao is technique-oriented, Taijiquan is internal mechanics/attribute oriented (whether it is a more mechanical approach or esoteric chi/qi-based)


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 8, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.
> 
> It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.


I feel the same way too. Wrestling utilizes

- yield,
- sticky,
- follow,
- sinking,
- ..

as basic 101.

I believe the major difference is

- Wrestling gives before taking.
- Taiji takes without giving.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 8, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I feel the same way too. Wrestling utilizes
> 
> - yield,
> - sticky,
> ...


If you aren’t able to yield you aren’t doing anything I could recognize as Tai Chi. How much Tai Chi training do you have? I am not a wrestler, would it sound appropriate to you if I start talking about how wrestling is this or that? There is a big hole in your argument boat.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 8, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.
> 
> It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.


I am genuinely interested to hear about this,unless of course I need some status first. I don’t know much about classic wrestling.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 8, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.
> 
> It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.





Wing Woo Gar said:


> I am genuinely interested to hear about this,unless of course I need some status first. I don’t know much about classic wrestling.


DB was being facetious in response to the claim that there is a super deadly combative effective form of Tai Chi training which only an handful of masters learn but which they won't publicly demonstrate because reasons.

However he's not exactly wrong either. Wrestling training normally starts out with a heavy, heavy focus on physical and mental conditioning, drilling, and free sparring and competition. (And this never goes away.) However at the highest levels of the art you end up with practitioners who have a very high level of integrated body awareness with regard to their own movement and sensitivity with regard to their opponent's energy. In my opinion, this type of skill is the same thing that practitioners of "internal" arts are chasing. It just doesn't tend to get recognized as such because serious wrestlers also have the classic "external" attributes of strength, speed, and explosiveness, which are more clearly recognizable from the outside.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 8, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> DB was being facetious in response to the claim that there is a super deadly combative effective form of Tai Chi training which only an handful of masters learn but which they won't publicly demonstrate because reasons.
> 
> However he's not exactly wrong either. Wrestling training normally starts out with a heavy, heavy focus on physical and mental conditioning, drilling, and free sparring and competition. (And this never goes away.) However at the highest levels of the art you end up with practitioners who have a very high level of integrated body awareness with regard to their own movement and sensitivity with regard to their opponent's energy. In my opinion, this type of skill is the same thing that practitioners of "internal" arts are chasing. It just doesn't tend to get recognized as such because serious wrestlers also have the classic "external" attributes of strength, speed, and explosiveness, which are more clearly recognizable from the outside.


Thank you for the clarification. I feel silly for asking now. I guess it goes with my repeated line that there is no real difference in styles, the people at the top are mostly doing the same things. I practice both types internal and external, I don’t think there is anything magical about one or the other. Hard and soft are equally useful, but in my opinion it is a higher skill when someone can freely and nearly imperceptibly switch back and forth or integrate both.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 8, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Coincidentally wrestling also has very little known internal energy systems nobody will show you unless you have achieved a certain status.
> 
> It is why wrestling has been so dominant against other systems for so long.


Sorry for my dumb question. I didnt get the sarcasm.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Wing Woo Gar said:
> 
> 
> > How much Tai Chi training do you have? ... There is a big hole in your argument boat.


In Chinese wrestling, you train technique in pairs. One technique goes north, another technique go south. You first apply north direction throw, when your opponent resists, you borrow his resistant force, yield into his resistant force, and change your north direction throw into a south direction throw. In this process, principles such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow have been executed.

This is why I said Chinese wrestling will give first and then take afterward. Most Taiji person will just wait for his opponent's to make the first move.

I had Taiji since I was 7. It was the 1st MA system that I trained.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 8, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In Chinese wrestling, you train technique in pairs. One technique goes north, another technique go south. You first apply north direction throw, when your opponent resists, you borrow his resistant force, yield into his resistant force, and change your north direction throw into a south direction throw. In this process, principles such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow have been executed.
> 
> This is why I said Chinese wrestling will give first and then take afterward. Most Taiji person will just wait for his opponent's to make the first move.
> 
> I had Taiji since I was 7. It was the 1st MA system that I trained.


Ok you don’t use that same principle? That seems to me like the same way I trained Tai Chi. I call it shake the baby but I use that principle not just for the sweep but also to set up a punch or throw. I don’t really see any difference other than what we are calling it. I don’t think we have any disagreement about what works other than the name we call it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok you don’t use that same principle? That seems to me like the same way I trained Tai Chi. I call it shake the baby but I use that principle not just for the sweep but also to set up a punch or throw. I don’t really see any difference other than what we are calling it. I don’t think we have any disagreement about what works other than the name we call it.


Here is an example.

- You use hip throw on your opponent.
- Your opponent sinks down and resists your hip throw.
- You borrow his resistant force, change your hip throw into inner hook, and help your opponent to sink down more than he wants to.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 8, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In Chinese wrestling, you train technique in pairs. One technique goes north, another technique go south. You first apply north direction throw, when your opponent resists, you borrow his resistant force, yield into his resistant force, and change your north direction throw into a south direction throw. In this process, principles such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow have been executed.
> 
> This is why I said Chinese wrestling will give first and then take afterward. Most Taiji person will just wait for his opponent's to make the first move.
> 
> I had Taiji since I was 7. It was the 1st MA system that I trained.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is an example.
> 
> - You use hip throw on your opponent.
> - Your opponent sinks down and resists your hip throw.
> - You borrow his resistant force, change your hip throw into inner hook, and help your opponent to sink down more than he wants to.


That is not very impressive. The uke is not resisting and he is not on his legs. Anyone can learn this basic move in 5 minutes. This is first grade stuff.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That is not very impressive. The uke is not resisting and he is not on his legs. Anyone can learn this basic move in 5 minutes. This is first grade stuff.


One may learn this in 5 minutes. It may take him years to be able to apply on his opponent.

To learn and to be able to do on resistant opponent are far way apart.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One may learn this in 5 minutes. It may take him years to be able to apply on his opponent.
> 
> To learn and to be able to do on resistant opponent are far way apart.


It shouldn’t take years to be able to apply to an opponent.  It takes years to polish and reach a high level of skill.  But it ought to be functional much much more quickly than that.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In Chinese wrestling, you train technique in pairs. One technique goes north, another technique go south. You first apply north direction throw, when your opponent resists, you borrow his resistant force, yield into his resistant force, and change your north direction throw into a south direction throw. In this process, principles such as borrow force, yield, sticky, follow have been executed.
> 
> This is why I said Chinese wrestling will give first and then take afterward. Most Taiji person will just wait for his opponent's to make the first move.
> 
> I had Taiji since I was 7. It was the 1st MA system that I trained.


In my flavor of Yang we do not always wait if there is a opening seen it is taken=n. Also if the opponent is not doing anything there are fakes that make them do something.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One may learn this in 5 minutes. It may take him years to be able to apply on his opponent.
> 
> To learn and to be able to do on resistant opponent are far way apart.


Well the guy in the video is not resisting and is not on his legs. I fail to see how this is supportive of your statements.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well the guy in the video is not resisting and is not on his legs. I fail to see how this is supportive of your statements.


Will this "knee seize, foot sweep" combo explain the "borrowing force" principle better?

- You try ro pull your opponent's leg. He steps back.
- You borrow his body turning, help him to turn more than he wants to, and sweep him down.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That is not very impressive. The uke is not resisting and he is not on his legs. Anyone can learn this basic move in 5 minutes. This is first grade stuff.


Most demos in any style include someone displaying token resistance that sets up the technique being demonstrated.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 9, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> In my flavor of Yang we do not always wait if there is a opening seen it is taken=n. Also if the opponent is not doing anything there are fakes that make them do something.


That seems to be the case in John’s approach, as well, from past posts.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 9, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Most demos in any style include someone displaying token resistance that sets up the technique being demonstrated.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> Will this "knee seize, foot sweep" combo explain the "borrowing force" principle better?
> 
> - You try ro pull your opponent's leg. He steps back.
> - You borrow his body turning, help him to turn more than he wants to, and sweep him down.


Please forgive me, after rereading my earlier post, it sounds rude. I want apologize for that before we continue.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 9, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That seems to be the case in John’s approach, as well, from past posts.


Well it certainly must be, I can’t imagine another way. The way I was taught, this concept is immediately discussed and trained into many of the movements, it is very effective against rigid opponents, or those that rely strictly on muscle force. This is why I am not sure there is any argument about what the concept is, rather there may be a miscommunication regarding nomenclature or whether a certain style contains the concept.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 9, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> In my flavor of Yang we do not always wait if there is a opening seen it is taken=n. Also if the opponent is not doing anything there are fakes that make them do something.


This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". When you fake your opponent, you are not doing SD.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Please forgive me, after rereading my earlier post, it sounds rude. I want apologize for that before we continue.


Don't worry about it.

Xue Sheng and I have argued on Taiji for a long time. After I have found out that Xue also feel that Taiji should address combat, he and I should have no more arguement.

I learned Taiji when I was 7. When I was 9, one day I got into a fight and I didn't know how to use Taiji for fighting. That was the day I had doubt about the Taiji training method.

If I want to use Taiji in combat after 2 years, does the current Taiji training (train solo form and push hand only) can help me to achieve that? I don't think so.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". When you fake your opponent, you are not doing SD.


Why not?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". When you fake your opponent, you are not doing SD.



I disagree.
if I fake a right jab and the opponent defends against a right jab but I actually throw and land a left cross…. my advantage, I have defended myself, that is SD

One of my xingyiquan shifus, when asked by a student, what is xingyiquans fighting stance, he said, basically it is santa shi… then he added, I never take it when someone gets confrontational. I stand back, with my feet parallel with my hands up and say I don’t want any trouble. This de-escalates where santi would start a problem. But from the stance he take, he can rather quickly get to an of the five elements…also a type of fake and also, IMO, SD

When I worked hospital security I had a guy charge right at me, I stood there as he came at me appearing that I would take the full force of his charge, and I am fairly certain his plan was to knock me backwards into the wall. He hit me with his body attempting to grab me I redirected his force to my right bounced him off the wall, took him to the floor and restrained him. That was a fake and, IMO, most certainly SD. By the way that redirection and use of his force against him comes directly from push hands training. Push hands is not for fighting, but some of the things you learn in push hands are directly applicable to fighting


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Don't worry about it.
> 
> Xue Sheng and I have argued on Taiji for a long time. After I have found out that Xue also feel that Taiji should address combat, he and I should have no more arguement.
> 
> ...


I agree 2 years is not enough training to use much application. I wonder if you were shown the applications? Many people do not get the application for many years and most never get it. Many of the Tai Chi practitioners I have come across have little or no structure and move as if collapsed. This is why Tai Chi gets such a bad rap. It is not always the case, some people do have the fighting skill but I have never seen 2 year students with that ability. In some martial art schools the new student can get skills and a black belt in two years. In some other school, the teacher may say 5 years for a proper flat punch and ten years for a proper horse stance. In Wally jay style small circle jujitsu for example, they focus on about twelve techniques they train over and over. They are very skilled. In Ying Jow Pai, there is not a large content in the curriculum, and it is specialized. it may not take as long to learn the style if one already has a martial arts background. I have no problem telling my 2 year students that a 2 year jujitsu student can likely wipe the floor with them. That may or may not be the case at 5 years and beyond. For that explicit reason I urge my students to train both gung fu and Tai Chi concurrently and if at all possible get some form of jujitsu or grappling training along the way. I think that at least a year or two of grappling experience can be very useful and informative to any student of any striking art regardless of where they are in their training. To my thinking that is a well rounded martial arts education that is contemporary and useful.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I don't like the term "self-defense". When you fake your opponent, you are not doing SD.


Well I don’t much care what you call it, results are what count.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 10, 2022)

I believe it was Chen Xiaowang that said he considered taijiquan as a martial art as dead. He also said there are a very few out there that train it as a martial art, but many more who do not. And if you take a very small number and divide it by a very large number, the result is so close to zero, it might as well be zero

as for me (Xue) I believe I am in that very small number, but I fear age and infirmity, and lack of training partners interested in the MA of it, may be pushing me into the very large number. I guess time will tell


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I believe it was Chen Xiaowang that said he considered taijiquan as a martial art as dead. He also said there are a very few out there that train it as a martial art, but many more who do not. And if you take a very small number and divide it by a very large number, the result is so close to zero, it might as well be zero
> 
> as for me (Xue) I believe I am in that very small number, but I fear age and infirmity, and lack of training partners interested in the MA of it, may be pushing me into the very large number. I guess time will tell


We will go the way of the Dodo… If you make it Humboldt county California to see the redwoods please hit me up.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I believe it was Chen Xiaowang that said he considered taijiquan as a martial art as dead.


He's clearly wrong.

As if it could die.  Ha.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> He's clearly wrong.
> 
> As if it could die.  Ha.


Well if nobody is teaching it or doing from a martial arts perspective then…


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 10, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well if nobody is teaching it or doing from a martial arts perspective then…


Don't be silly.  That's not the present case at all.

If you're too tired and lazy to find a proper master, you'll get what you put in.

By the way, never take what any kung fu master says as canon.  That path leads to the dark side.  That goes for wrestling and boxing coaches, too.  

And especially gymnastic coaches and ski instructors.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 10, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I agree 2 years is not enough training to use much application. I wonder if you were shown the applications? Many people do not get the application for many years and most never get it. Many of the Tai Chi practitioners I have come across have little or no structure and move as if collapsed.


I think the real problem is that what you tend to see in taiji is people doing the form.  That is all they are taught, and they are taught the form starting on day one.  In that case, knowing the applications from the form is useless because they lack the larger context of having a working foundation and don’t even know how to throw an effective punch. 

Forms are worthless without understanding the foundation.  Forms should not be taught until later, when they have value with context.  Why is it that people want to jump straight into the forms, and teachers are apparently willing to do so?  What other martial art does this?  A karate school or a Tae Kwon do school or a kung fu school that develops students into capable fighters or people with functional self defense skills spend time developing the basics, the punches and kicks and blocks and stepping and whatever other techniques are in the arsenal, so that a student understands how to use them.  How to use a punch in a more generalized sense, how to harness good biomechanics according to the training methods of the particular style.  

If taiji schools approached training in this way, they would look much like other kung fu or karate schools.  Students should be learning to punch by throwing hundreds of punches in a training session and getting instruction on how to do that effectively.  Instead, they come to class and do the form two or three times, and then go home.  Maybe the Sifu “shows” them a couple of applications, and then training is finished.  People think they are learning taiji for fighting, but they are fooling themselves.

When someone can throw an effective punch and has an understanding of how to use the punch in a confrontation, then they can begin learning what the form contains.  Then they have the foundational context to make sense of what is in the forms, and learn further applications from them.  

If someone jumps straight to the form and that is all they train, you can spend eternity showing them applications from the form, and they will never benefit from it.  Because it never gets drilled in a way to really develop the skill, it becomes theoretical knowledge that they can never apply. 

Unfortunately I believe there is a general trend in other kung fu schools to jump straight to the forms and short-change the fundamentals and the foundation.  That is a recipe for learning a form as a hollow dance routine, and not as a meaningful training tool. 

People gotta put in the hard work and gotta spend their time on the basics.  Taiji is no exception to this.  In my opinion, that is what is missing in most modern taiji schools.

So getting back to what I quoted above, I believe two years of taiji could be enough to have some solid application, if those two years are spent learning how to throw a solid punch and gaining an understanding of how to do so in a confrontation.  It isn’t learning the form and people would think it doesn’t look like taiji.  But taiji folks need to develop those basics just like anyone training a different system.  For some reason people have decided that taiji is different, it only requires doing the form a couple of times and the movement of the form will magically transform them into a capable combatant.  It won’t.  Only hard work will.  What is kung fu?  It is skill gained through hard work.  Most taiji people have no kung fu.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 10, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Why not?


If I throw a fake groin kick to get my opponent to respond, my opponent may claim he is doing SD.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> He's clearly wrong.
> 
> As if it could die.  Ha.


I don’t know, the Chen family 20th generat appears to be doing Chen forms, but for martial arts they are doing sansho. much like shaolin these days


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I don’t know, the Chen family 20th generat appears to be doing Chen forms, but for martial arts they are doing sansho. much like shaolin these days


As the world keeps turning.  

It's seriously hard to fathom what could kill off any art that's more than a thousand years old, especially one known to strengthen the mind and body.

Shaolin Chan is a great example.  Somehow, it became the ethos of entire countries.  Especially Korea.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> As the world keeps turning.
> 
> It's seriously hard to fathom what could kill off any art that's more than a thousand years old, especially one known to strengthen the mind and body.
> 
> Shaolin Chan is a great example.  Somehow, it became the ethos of entire countries.  Especially Korea.


Never said (and neither did Chen Xiaowang) it would be killed off, it wil be around as a moving meditation forever. It is the martial side that is rapidly going away.
How many people doing taijiquan are only doing it for strength balance, and health?
How many have any interest or are even aware of the martial side?
How many even try push hands, and if they do how many do it only as an extension of the health aspect?
How many if they are interested in martial arts are a bit delusional as to its effectiveness based on old stories and myth?
How many, if they train push hands think that is fighting?
How many learn the applications of the postures?
How many know anything at all about the 13 postures?
How many try and apply it sparing?

it will be around a long time, but the martial side will vanish


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## geezer (Jun 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Never said (and neither did Chen Xiaowang) it would be killed off, it wil be around as a moving meditation for ever. It is the martial side that is rapidly going away.
> How many people doing taijiquan are only doing it for strength balance, and health?
> How many have any interest or are even aware of the martial side?
> How many even try push hands, and if they do how many do it only as an extension of the health aspect?
> ...


How many.....? 

The answer my friend is hands moving like the wind...
The answer is flowing like the wind.



Dang, now I'm reeeeealy dating myself.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 10, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Never said (and neither did Chen Xiaowang) it would be killed off, it wil be around as a moving meditation forever. It is the martial side that is rapidly going away.
> How many people doing taijiquan are only doing it for strength balance, and health?
> How many have any interest or are even aware of the martial side?
> How many even try push hands, and if they do how many do it only as an extension of the health aspect?
> ...


And yet it hasn't for a very, very, very long time.

If it was going to vanish it would already have done so.  That's what makes it an art.  Arts can't die.  Can't even think of an art that ever really did.

Disco never really died.   Hell, Keanu Reeves was just in a major Tai Chi Chuan movie not too long ago, and it wasn't even any of the Matrices.

It would be very un-Dao to separate the martial side, if you think about it.  Can't ever happen.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> And yet it hasn't for a very, very, very long time.
> 
> If it was going to vanish it would already have done so.  That's what makes it an art.  Arts can't die.  Can't even think of an art that ever really did.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Many have already separated the martial side, and it’s an accelerating trend by its nature, since more and more people passing it along don’t possess that side of the art.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> And yet it hasn't for a very, very, very long time.
> 
> If it was going to vanish it would already have done so.  That's what makes it an art.  Arts can't die.  Can't even think of an art that ever really did.
> 
> ...


i am not saying taiji will  go away, never implied that. It is changing to a health exercise, no martial content. And the martial art known as taijiquan is virtually gone. If you look at all the questions I asked and answer them honestly, there are very very few who know anything about the martial side of taijiquan and many of those do not want to know. I have been training taijiquan for over 30 years, traditional Yang style taijiquan (Tung Ying Chieh lineage) for about 27 year and when I started traditional Yang it was a group of old MA warhorses. Even the way my shifu taught was martial arts heavy and at times painful. But as time passes we were replaced by those that did not want MA and those that had no idea of MA until I was tha last old warhorse standing. My Sifu tried to get people into the MA side, some got offended by the mention of “martial arts” for a time there was a group there that was offended by my presence for even bringing martial arts into their quiet peaceful moving meditation. One night my shifu and I talked and he told me I was his last serious student and as far as taijiquan went, he was retired. From that point on he would teach only form because that is all anyone wants… to learn the long from, call themselves master and go teach it someplace. After that he and I hung out after classes doing push hands, applications and some qinna.

now if that were the only place I have seen this, I would say ok, it’s isolated. But I have seen this non-martial taijiquan I every single class I have checked out, save one maybe two. The rest do not do it, or just play at it, or pretend the mystical magic makes them invincible. But they are only doing the health side. And I’m ok with that. It is when the health side gets offended and forces out the martial side, I get annoyed. I have taught classes where people literally get offended and walk out of class by the mention of martial arts, I have seen people get upset by my answers to their question about an application of a form. I had an entire school avoid me when they were looking for someon to teach push hands after several recommended me, reason given: I was to serious

in that 30 years I have trained Yang, Chen, Northern Wu, Sun and a few competition forms and sadly all are going or already gone the same way. Likely still more Chen schools doing martial arts, but it is becoming sanshou, not the martial side of taijiquan

taijiquan will be here for a long time, and there will be pockets of the legitimate martial side for a while longer. But real martial taijiquan is vanishing. There will be those that take the taiji postures and use what martial art the know, be that karate, wing chun, jujutsu, aikido and make it martial, but it will not be following the basic principles of taijiquan. Seen that too by the way. Funniest one was the guy claiming HE made taijiquan a martial art….he had no idea it ever was. And he was using 24 form

sun style is referred to as the old peoples taijiquan, but yet if you look at stills of Sun Lutang it is the most obviously martial art version of taijiquan that I have ever seen. But I have not seen one sun class even mention martial arts.

oh and the one teacher that I know that still teaches martial arts separated our from his regular classes, and it is his smallest class. He was a student of William CC Chen. The other that I think is still teaching the martial side, due to the fact breakfall  training is part of the curriculum is the Wu family in Toronto (southern Wu).

ok, been awhile since I climbed up on the soap box on MT….or for that matter typed that much in one post on MT…but I will stop and get off the soap box now


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I disagree. Many have already separated the martial side, and it’s an accelerating trend by its nature, since more and more people passing it along don’t possess that side of the art.


As far as natural accelerating trends, martial Tai Chi will outlive both of us, as will the rest of it, including the literature.  That's because Tai Chi is really simple to learn, and pass on, whether it's used for martial arts or anything else.  It's just a matter of study, and it's a very approachable and applicable philosophy of both daily living, and physical exercise.

There's so much to it, in fact, it's easy to forgive the vast majority who don't ever pursue martial arts.  Some people just want to breath, or stand erect.

I sometimes wonder what Tai Chi students circa 1000AD thought about death, right about the time I'm in Zhan Zhuong land, aching.  I had a thought the other day that I came to Tai Chi Chuan as a martial artist.  I didn't seek it to learn to fight.  That was probably the best way.  It's been a very Dao experience so far.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> i am not saying taiji will  go away, never implied that. It is changing to a health exercise, no martial content. And the martial art known as taijiquan is virtually gone.


It started as a health exercise promoted by Daoist priests (and before them, wandering ascetics, so really, Tai Chi will always comes back to that, as it should.  The martial content will always be the realm of the handful who train their bodies and minds to the point of balancing the extreme furies of the Taijitu, into the spiritual.

As far as TCC being "virtually gone", the opposite is true.  TCC is literally "virtually" more available than ever in history, it just takes, as it always should, a keen eye to quality.

And thanks to the internet, China itself could vanish, and yet we'd have enough of TCC available to work with, assuming we'd never taken a class in it, but had basic hand to hand training.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It started as a health exercise promoted by Daoist priests (and before them, wandering ascetics, so really, Tai Chi will always comes back to that, as it should.  The martial content will always be the realm of the handful who train their bodies and minds to the point of balancing the extreme furies of the Taijitu, into the spiritual.
> 
> As far as TCC being "virtually gone", the opposite is true.  TCC is literally "virtually" more available than ever in history, it just takes, as it always should, a keen eye to quality.
> 
> And thanks to the internet, China itself could vanish, and yet we'd have enough of TCC available to work with, assuming we'd never taken a class in it, but had basic hand to hand training.


It sounds as if you are basing historical taijiquan on unverified claims with no historical evidence and myth. If so then on this topic, we shall never agree


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> As far as natural accelerating trends, martial Tai Chi will outlive both of us, as will the rest of it, including the literature.  That's because Tai Chi is really simple to learn, and pass on, whether it's used for martial arts or anything else.  It's just a matter of study, and it's a very approachable and applicable philosophy of both daily living, and physical exercise.
> 
> There's so much to it, in fact, it's easy to forgive the vast majority who don't ever pursue martial arts.  Some people just want to breath, or stand erect.
> 
> I sometimes wonder what Tai Chi students circa 1000AD thought about death, right about the time I'm in Zhan Zhuong land, aching.  I had a thought the other day that I came to Tai Chi Chuan as a martial artist.  I didn't seek it to learn to fight.  That was probably the best way.  It's been a very Dao experience so far.


sorry, do not agree, this is sounding to me to go into the realm of the mythical realm and belief in figure who cannot be historically proven to have existed. Not to mention if you look at those that talk about him as existing the times they claim he existed are vastly different. Which only leave another mythical claim of his existence as being immortal to describe the vastly different dates assigned to him. there Is no verifiable proof of the existence of Zhang San Feng. There is also no verifiable proof that “taijiquan” came from monks and there is no verifiable proof of it’s existence in 1000AD. There is some speculation that there was a qigong form know as Taiji that is older but it is not taijiquan


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> It sounds as if you are basing historical taijiquan on unverified claims with no historical evidence and myth. If so then on this topic, we shall never agree


The Daoyin exercises are pretty well verified from a historical POV.

Not only do they form one of the hearts of Neigong, they're an important skeletal truth, figuratively and literally.  This is another example of a very, very old element worming its way through many CMA until it gets memorialized as something like holding beach ball similes.

These are the things that boxing, wrestling, and Tai Chi Chuan have in common, man.









						Zhan zhuang - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> sorry, do not agree, this is sounding to me to go into the realm of the mythical realm and belief in figure who cannot be historically proven to have existed. Not to mention if you look at those that talk about him as existing the times they claim he existed are vastly different. Which only leave another mythical claim of his existence as being immortal to describe the vastly different dates assigned to him. there Is no verifiable proof of the existence of Zhang San Feng. There is also no verifiable proof that “taijiquan” came from monks and there is no verifiable proof of it’s existence in 1000AD. There is some speculation that there was a qigong form know as Taiji that is older but it is not taijiquan


There is no verifiable proof of a lot of people in CMA history, that doesn't mean they didn't exist.  

As far as monks in 1000AD, let's discuss.  There were many epicenters combining Buddhist, Daoist, and martial arts training at that time.

This kind of goes back to why the Koreans consider "Seon" = "Good", you know.  

There's a very positive Sino-Indian vibe going on here.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There is no verifiable proof of a lot of people in CMA history, that doesn't mean they didn't exist.
> 
> As far as monks in 1000AD, let's discuss.  There were many epicenters combining Buddhist, Daoist, and martial arts training at that time.
> 
> ...



again speculatio, not going the speculation and mythology route.
epicenters of Buddhism, and Taoism do not translate to they did, or even knew of Taijiquan

here is an old post of mine on Zhang Sen Feng





						Zhang Sanfeng was REAL!!!   well no
					

but he is for about 30 to 60 minutes a day      Personal (and a bit strange) discovery about training taijiquan and Zhang Sanfeng. I am finding it much more enjoyable and easier to train taijiquan if I just go with the thought that it was actually created by a mystical (likely mythical) Daoist...



					www.martialtalk.com


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> again speculatio, not going the speculation and mythology route.
> epicenters of Buddhism, and Taoism do not translate to they did, or even knew of Taijiquan


That's where it was percolated though.  There's a large list of places documented in the scholarly literature like Mahar, as well as dramaticized in works like "The Wandering Taoist".  Whether it's a real place or an imagined one, they all share the same characteristics.  Like shuffling up the side of a mountain.  Your Qi cultivation better be strong there.

People were writing about it even back then, whether or not they got a proper video capture.


Xue Sheng said:


> here is an old post of mine on Zhang Sen Feng
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As far as CMA mythical characters like him or others (there are many), I don't think we need to mention them, do we?  I would never bore you with an afternoon of speculation on Ji Sin Sim See.  We'd be here all month.

The evidence of TCC is all around, amply available, and pretty well archived for the next thousand generations.  It's just waiting for a student to find it, then the master appears.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The Daoyin exercises are pretty well verified from a historical POV.
> 
> Not only do they form one of the hearts of Neigong, they're an important skeletal truth, figuratively and literally.  This is another example of a very, very old element worming its way through many CMA until it gets memorialized as something like holding beach ball similes.
> 
> ...


Daoyin is qigong, not taijiquan, and having things  in common does not mean same. None of this has anything to do with actual taijiquan, grand ultimate fist, beyond the fact that over the year that some was taken from here and there and. Become part of taijiquan. Zhang Zhuan is not taijiquanand dos not prove taijiquan existed in 1000AD. It became part of taijiquan, as it became part of many CMA styles.

you are giving bits and pieces that eventually went  into taijiquan and proof of its existence  in 1000AD.

OK if that is proof then diansaurs still exist because many scientists believe thy became birds. And modern man as we know him today existed 750,000 years ago


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's where it was percolated though.  There's a large list of places documented in the scholarly literature like Mahar, as well as dramaticized in works like "The Wandering Taoist".  Whether it's a real place or an imagined one, they all share the same characteristics.
> 
> People were writing about it even back then, whether or not they got a proper video capture.
> 
> ...



still no proof of taijiquan I. 1000 AD beyond speculation

 we do not and likely will not agree so why continue to bore other reads on RF and possibly tax the mods. I stand by what I said, Taijiquan is as a martial art, virtually dead. This is based on experience, not speculation and bits and. Pieces thrown together. To prove what, and I am sorry about this, to prove what Is not historically or factually possible to support. 

i have enjoyed our discussion


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Daoyin is qigong, not taijiquan, and having things  in common does not mean same. None of this has anything to do with actual taijiquan, grand ultimate fist, beyond the fact that over the year that some was taken from here and there and. Become part of taijiquan. Zhang Zhuan is not taijiquanand dos not prove taijiquan existed in 1000AD. It became part of taijiquan, as it became part of many CMA styles.
> 
> you are giving bits and pieces that eventually went  into taijiquan and proof of its existence  in 1000AD.
> 
> OK if that is proof then diansaurs still exist because many scientists believe thy became birds. And modern man as we know him today existed 750,000 years ago


You stole the Yi Jing again, didn't you?

Daoyin is qigong but not Taijiquan...Taijiquan is qigong.

Mind, blown.  You've found the New Way.  Party on.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You stole the Yi Jing again, didn't you?
> 
> Daoyin is qigong but not Taijiquan...Taijiquan is qigong.
> 
> Mind, blown.  You've found the New Way.



Chen Zhenglei and my wife the top graduate of the Beijing college of  traditional Chinese medicine with and MD and Phd as well as my Yang taijiquan shifu, born raised and trained in China do not agree. Nor do I, and. Please stop the condescention. Taijiquan has qigong as part of it, as does baguazhang, xingyiquan, yiquan, wing chun….but they are not gigong.

 And why would my mind be blown when you are wrong

i deal in historical facts not speculation, not bits and pieces thrown together to support some mythical claim….

this discussion is done…your condescending remarks says this will not end well if it continues….do not want to give the mods any issues

edit, nice mature laughing and love imojis just proves my point, you are not worth wasting and more of my time on.

we’re done here, have a nice day


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Chen Zhenglei and my wife the top graduate of the Beijing college of  traditional Chinese medicine with and MD and Phd as well as my Yang taijiquan shifu, born raised and trained in China do not agree. Nor do I, and. Please stop the condescention. Taijiquan has qigong as part of it, as does baguazhang, xingyiquan, yiquan, wing chun….but they are not gigong.
> 
> And why would my mind be blown when you are wrong
> 
> ...


Wrong about what?

Sorry, I'm slow.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Wrong about what?
> 
> Sorry, I'm slow.



Well I was sure wrong about you before…. not impressed

end discussion……bye bye


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well I was sure wrong about you before…. not impressed
> 
> end discussion……bye bye


It's like drama, and not drama.

This is some _Stranger Things_ level stuff.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Just checked TCC is still breathing, Chen admonishments notwithstanding.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

It's funny Xue brought up Zhang Sanfeng (I sure never would).

Why is nobody else laughing.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's funny Xue brought up Zhang Sanfeng (I sure never would).
> 
> Why is nobody else laughing.


It's funny because Tai Chi Chuan's development predates the 12th century.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Don't be silly.  That's not the present case at all.
> 
> If you're too tired and lazy to find a proper master, you'll get what you put in.
> 
> ...


Well I was taught it as a martial art. I can’t deny that the vast majority of people who practice it aren’t able to use it effectively. Most people dont have any root to begin with.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well I was taught it as a martial art. I can’t deny that the vast majority of people who practice it aren’t able to use it effectively. Most people dont have any root to begin with.


When my teacher taugh Taiji in the Chinese Culture University 中國文化大學 in Taiwan (I was his teaching assistant), he taught all the Taiji application in a great detail.

1. Cloud hand - Use right clockwise circle to deflect opponent's left punching arm. Use left counter-clockwise circle to block and wrap opponent's right punching arm. Right arm then turns into a head lock.

2. Needle at the bottom of the sea, shoulder extend to the arm - Use small wrist lock on opponent's right arm. When opponent resists, lift up his right arm, and enter with a shoulder throw.

3. Slant body down - left arm wrap opponent's right arm. Right arm go under his right leg, and firemen carry him over your shoulder.

4. ...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I think the real problem is that what you tend to see in taiji is people doing the form.  That is all they are taught, and they are taught the form starting on day one.  In that case, knowing the applications from the form is useless because they lack the larger context of having a working foundation and don’t even know how to throw an effective punch.
> 
> Forms are worthless without understanding the foundation.  Forms should not be taught until later, when they have value with context.  Why is it that people want to jump straight into the forms, and teachers are apparently willing to do so?  What other martial art does this?  A karate school or a Tae Kwon do school or a kung fu school that develops students into capable fighters or people with functional self defense skills spend time developing the basics, the punches and kicks and blocks and stepping and whatever other techniques are in the arsenal, so that a student understands how to use them.  How to use a punch in a more generalized sense, how to harness good biomechanics according to the training methods of the particular style.
> 
> ...


All very true and well said. When we did the for the Sifu would slow us down so that the Yang Long form took us up to 55 minutes to complete. On the slippery concrete floor with cotton slippers. It was brutal training. Usually 3 one hour alternating classes per day, Tai chi then gung fu then Tai chi again or gf then tc then advanced gf.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well I was taught it as a martial art. I can’t deny that the vast majority of people who practice it aren’t able to use it effectively. Most people dont have any root to begin with.


The same thing applies to any art.  I can cook, so can Bobby Flay.

Tai Chi Chuan is not anything new, that's part of the mystery.  Like a lot of CMA it contains ancient material, underneath a lot of modern thought.

The modern families that have kept it alive didn't invent it.  That's why you need to stay objective with all these Kung Fu styles. 

Martial TCC will always be as available as Five Animal Frolic Qigong.  These things don't die.


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## Unkogami (Jun 11, 2022)

BigDon said:


> Certainly,  not Taijiquan


How do you  know?


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## Unkogami (Jun 11, 2022)

I'm going to go out on a limb and suppose I have more experience with wrestling at a high level than anyone else here, and I do appreciate the value and applicability of taijichuan.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 11, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and suppose I have more experience with wrestling at a high level than anyone else here, and I do appreciate the value and applicability of taijichuan.


Also, being a harbinger of Doom is not very Dao.

Just putting that out there on this fine Saturday.

Don't make the ancestors roll over in their graves more than they're used to.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> All very true and well said. When we did the for the Sifu would slow us down so that the Yang Long form took us up to 55 minutes to complete. On the slippery concrete floor with cotton slippers. It was brutal training. Usually 3 one hour alternating classes per day, Tai chi then gung fu then Tai chi again or gf then tc then advanced gf.


Obviously I cannot comment on your training since I was not there.  But at least you were (I am assuming) learning and developing a solid foundation with the other kung fu training you were doing, systematically developing your punch and other comprehensive basics,  so you had context already established in order to understand the taiji form.  So the taiji form could have value for you. 

I don’t know how similar or different your foundation from the other method is, to a strict taiji approach in that development.  But my teachers feel the Tibetan crane foundation works perfectly on the Chen Taiji platform.  I can’t comment, I stopped my taiji practice when my TWC comprehension was not yet well developed, and honestly the development of a foundation within the Chen taiji context was missing from my training.  But I know that these things can have some solid overlap.  

The problem is when people who have no other training to fall back on learn taiji and jump straight into the form without ever developing a foundation.  They will never recover from that deficit.  I have known people who did just that, who honestly believed that their practice of the form (poorly at that, and both taiji and bagua; it seems the problem exists prominently within the realm of internal arts) gave them solid combative skills.  Like it was magic.  They were completely delusional.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> The problem is when people who have no other training to fall back on learn taiji and jump straight into the form without ever developing a foundation.


My long fist teacher also cross trained Taiji. He won't teach anybody Taiji until that person has 3 years of long fist basic training.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My long fist teacher also cross trained Taiji. He won't teach anybody Taiji until that person has 3 years of long fist basic training.


I think that can be a way to approach it. What I would prefer to see is the foundation built within the taiji methodology.  I feel certain it must exist, but it seems that most schools don’t go about it.  Instead they graft their taiji onto a foundation taken from elsewhere.  That may or may not work, depending on many variables.  Maybe they never learned the taiji methodology for doing that.  If true, that is a loss.  It isn’t really true taiji anymore, even if it is functional.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Obviously I cannot comment on your training since I was not there.  But at least you were (I am assuming) learning and developing a solid foundation with the other kung fu training you were doing, systematically developing your punch and other comprehensive basics,  so you had context already established in order to understand the taiji form.  So the taiji form could have value for you.
> 
> I don’t know how similar or different your foundation from the other method is, to a strict taiji approach in that development.  But my teachers feel the Tibetan crane foundation works perfectly on the Chen Taiji platform.  I can’t comment, I stopped my taiji practice when my TWC comprehension was not yet well developed, and honestly the development of a foundation within the Chen taiji context was missing from my training.  But I know that these things can have some solid overlap.
> 
> The problem is when people who have no other training to fall back on learn taiji and jump straight into the form without ever developing a foundation.  They will never recover from that deficit.  I have known people who did just that, who honestly believed that their practice of the form (poorly at that, and both taiji and bagua; it seems the problem exists prominently within the realm of internal arts) gave them solid combative skills.  Like it was magic.  They were completely delusional.


That was my point of saying that, our system is essentially southern style arms and Tai chi legs. We trained both separately but equally. It offers options when they are integrated.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that can be a way to approach it. What I would prefer to see is the foundation built within the taiji methodology.  I feel certain it must exist, but it seems that most schools don’t go about it.  Instead they graft their taiji onto a foundation taken from elsewhere.  That may or may not work, depending on many variables.  Maybe they never learned the taiji methodology for doing that.  If true, that is a loss.  It isn’t really true taiji anymore, even if it is functional.


Unless one is just used to contrast the other. If I know what hard and external is for certain,that can be helpful when trying to find that soft internal motion.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that can be a way to approach it. What I would prefer to see is the foundation built within the taiji methodology.  I feel certain it must exist, but it seems that most schools don’t go about it.  Instead they graft their taiji onto a foundation taken from elsewhere.  That may or may not work, depending on many variables.  Maybe they never learned the taiji methodology for doing that.  If true, that is a loss.  It isn’t really true taiji anymore, even if it is functional.


That has more to do with the teaching method in my opinion. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Although, they must be taught independently at first and up to a point. It’s just motion in the end.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That has more to do with the teaching method in my opinion. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Although, they must be taught independently at first and up to a point. It’s just motion in the end.


Yeah, I guess the way I see it is that often what differentiates one style from another is the training methodology.  A punch is ubiquitous, but how the punch is developed, the methodology used to harness the power, is what is often different and in some cases, unique.  So it could be that one’s taiji is effective because it has just become modified long fist or something.  Instead, I would like to see the taiji foundation and application skills developed according to the taiji methodology, so it is being used and being effective and functional in the way it was designed.  I don’t believe it is simply interpreting the forms.  I believe there must be a specific methodology to build the foundation, before the forms are supposed to be learned.  That is what I would like to see people doing, and then it is functional taiji.  I suspect it would look a lot like the heavy drilling done in other systems. People want taiji to be completely unique and unlike other systems. At its heart, I don’t believe it is.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, I guess the way I see it is that often what differentiates one style from another is the training methodology.  A punch is ubiquitous, but how the punch is developed, the methodology used to harness the power, is what is often different and in some cases, unique.  So it could be that one’s taiji is effective because it has just become modified long fist or something.  Instead, I would like to see the taiji foundation and application skills developed according to the taiji methodology, so it is being used and being effective and functional in the way it was designed.  I don’t believe it is simply interpreting the forms.  I believe there must be a specific methodology to build the foundation, before the forms are supposed to be learned.  That is what I would like to see people doing, and then it is functional taiji.  I suspect it would look a lot like the heavy drilling done in other systems. People want taiji to be completely unique and unlike other systems. At its heart, I don’t believe it is.


I agree with you it is it’s own thing that encompasses many other things. That’s where the confusion is for some. It must be trained in a much different way than longfist. They have not much in common but can be complementary if each is taught with its own methodology. I think we mostly agree on these concepts. “Five years for the flat punch and ten years for the horse stance“ should give some indication of how much foundational drilling went into my gung fu training. To be honest the Tai Chi training is far more difficult, and very very different.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The same thing applies to any art.  I can cook, so can Bobby Flay.
> 
> Tai Chi Chuan is not anything new, that's part of the mystery.  Like a lot of CMA it contains ancient material, underneath a lot of modern thought.
> 
> ...


Just because elements survive, that’s not the same as an art surviving. If Daito-Ryu ceased to be (including Aikido styles that appear to be a renaming of Daito-Ryu, without some of the direct combat aspects), but Nihon Goshin Aikido (which contains elements of it) survived in its current form, that would not be Daito-Ryu surviving, but it leaving a legacy.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Also, being a harbinger of Doom is not very Dao.
> 
> Just putting that out there on this fine Saturday.
> 
> Don't make the ancestors roll over in their graves more than they're used to.


Harbinger of doom? That’s a little dramatic. I am reasonably sure that the ancestors have been doing the twist since I was a tot.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that can be a way to approach it. What I would prefer to see is the foundation built within the taiji methodology.  I feel certain it must exist, but it seems that most schools don’t go about it.  Instead they graft their taiji onto a foundation taken from elsewhere.  That may or may not work, depending on many variables.  Maybe they never learned the taiji methodology for doing that.  If true, that is a loss.  It isn’t really true taiji anymore, even if it is functional.



Adam Hsu refers to taijiquan as a type of long fist

Unless you are lucky enough to find a true taijiquan shifu it can help to have a previous base style. But with that said I am not against a foundation in another style. However there are styles that can process. I saw a few TKD and Karate guys quit out of frustration. They were very stiff in movement. Really good at their previous style, but had a real hard time with relaxation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Adam Hsu refers to taijiquan as a type of long fist


When you have trained long fist into high level. it's similiar to Taiji.

Long fist training path:

10 roads Tan Tui -> 3rd road Pao Quan -> 4th road Cha Quan


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Adam Hsu refers to taijiquan as a type of long fist
> 
> Unless you are lucky enough to find a true taijiquan shifu it can help to have a previous base style. But with that said I am not against a foundation in another style. However there are styles that can process. I saw a few TKD and Karate guys quit out of frustration. They were very stiff in movement. Really good at their previous style, but had a real hard time with relaxation.


I can understand that reasoning, but at the same time I feel like that’s an admission that someone simply does not really know taiji.  And maybe that is the simple truth, and most people who can use it are actually adapting the taiji forms into some other method.  That gets to the heart of what I’m saying.  I suspect taiji has its own methodology for doing that.  I didn’t learn it so I don’t know what it is.  But I suspect it is supposed to be there.  It may actually look like some other systems, or not, I don’t know.  But I would like to know what it is.  

At any rate, if we walked into a taiji school and saw the students just drilling the basics, throwing punch after punch, kick after kick, but doing it according to some taiji theory and methodology, I think that would be interesting. 

What I do know is that a lot of things simply do not work well when done on the wrong foundation.  From what I have seen of Fukien crane or southern mantis, I think a lot of Tibetan crane techniques would not work well on those foundations, for example.  The theory and expression of the techniques is simply different and in many cases is not compatible.  So when people do taiji on a foundation adapted from another system, I wonder if similar problems exist.  Perhaps it is functional, while at the same time it never reaches the full potential because it isn’t on the proper taiji foundation.  

Honestly, I’m not sure if I am expressing my thoughts clearly.  Doing the best I can.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 12, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I can understand that reasoning, but at the same time I feel like that’s an admission that someone simply does not really know taiji.  And maybe that is the simple truth, and most people who can use it are actually adapting the taiji forms into some other method.  That gets to the heart of what I’m saying.  I suspect taiji has its own methodology for doing that.  I didn’t learn it so I don’t know what it is.  But I suspect it is supposed to be there.  It may actually look like some other systems, or not, I don’t know.  But I would like to know what it is.
> 
> At any rate, if we walked into a taiji school and saw the students just drilling the basics, throwing punch after punch, kick after kick, but doing it according to some taiji theory and methodology, I think that would be interesting.
> 
> ...


I didn’t say I agree with Adam Hsu, but I do not disagree either, mostly because it is Adam Hsu.

Taijiquan is often combined with other things and yes it does lose something and sometimes what it loses is major, the entire relaxation part. Watch competition push hands (my first shifu had us doing this), it is a skill, but in my opinion it is not taijiquan, to much muscle against muscle. Do push hands with my shifu, Yang Jwing Ming, or for that matter Wang Rengang (Yiquan), and you will feel a major difference. You get taken off balance and sometimes you don’t even know how you got there, or you get qinna applied to you and in the case on my shifu, you don’t know how you got there, with Yang Jwing Ming I could feel it coming, but could not stop it, but it was relaxed. WIth Wang Rengang the same thing with being taken off your center, but then he adds the surprise (where the heck did that come from) back fist in your face. But none of them force anything.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jun 12, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Just because elements survive, that’s not the same as an art surviving. If Daito-Ryu ceased to be (including Aikido styles that appear to be a renaming of Daito-Ryu, without some of the direct combat aspects), but Nihon Goshin Aikido (which contains elements of it) survived in its current form, that would not be Daito-Ryu surviving, but it leaving a legacy.


There are elements in TCC that go back to the I Ching.  That's survival.  And from there roll up another 1500 years into the modern family forms.

I found it in easy to find a very skilled martially trained Yang and Chen stylist.

The talk about TCC dying is really silly.  It's always there waiting for a new martial artist to pick it up any day of the week.  People still dig TC all over the world.  And many of them are martial artists that will not have a problem with learning or applying it.  Thousands of teachers, libraries of books on the subject, and endless videos, plenty of which are instructive.

It's not like the Dark Arts or something mystical that will be lost.  Boxing and wrestling haven't been necessary occupation skills in our lifetimes, they're still popular too.  

The sky is not falling on TCC.  It's more accessible than ever.  You don't even need to live in Chen Village, or know someone who did anymore.


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## Unkogami (Jun 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My long fist teacher also cross trained Taiji. He won't teach anybody Taiji until that person has 3 years of long fist basic training.


I trained both at the same time (in different places).


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I didn’t say I agree with Adam Hsu, but I do not disagree either, mostly because it is Adam Hsu.
> 
> Taijiquan is often combined with other things and yes it does lose something and sometimes what it loses is major, the entire relaxation part. Watch competition push hands (my first shifu had us doing this), it is a skill, but in my opinion it is not taijiquan, to much muscle against muscle. Do push hands with my shifu, Yang Jwing Ming, or for that matter Wang Rengang (Yiquan), and you will feel a major difference. You get taken off balance and sometimes you don’t even know how you got there, or you get qinna applied to you and in the case on my shifu, you don’t know how you got there, with Yang Jwing Ming I could feel it coming, but could not stop it, but it was relaxed. WIth Wang Rengang the same thing with being taken off your center, but then he adds the surprise (where the heck did that come from) back fist in your face. But none of them force anything.


Then I guess my question is, how did your Sifu, Sifu Yang Jwing among, and Sifu Wang Rengang do it?  Did they develop it through a proper Taiji foundation as I am imagining?  Or did they graft it onto something else?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 12, 2022)

I believe Taiji came from long fist.

This form is called "Taiji long fist".


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are elements in TCC that go back to the I Ching.  That's survival.  And from there roll up another 1500 years into the modern family forms.
> 
> I found it in easy to find a very skilled martially trained Yang and Chen stylist.
> 
> ...


"Elements" aren't the art. There are elements of NGA that go back hundreds of years, but the art is definitely less than 80 years old.

The process I see with TCC is similar to what happens with languages. Yes, a language continues so long as someone is actually speaking it, and it can be picked up by someone else at any time. But once the native speakers fall below a certain point, the likelihood of it continuing as a living language drops dramatically, because there are fewer and fewer chances for people to learn it as a full language, as it is spoken.

As martially-trained exponents of an art become scarcer (and in the case of TCC, are outnumbered by non-martial exponents), the chances of it continuing as an active, complete art decline dramatically.

The comparison to boxing is odd. You can walk into a boxing gym in most American towns and get boxing lessons from someone who is well-versed in the full range of boxing. That's not nearly so easy to find for TCC, from what I've seen - you're far more likely to find someone who teaches the health side...and only knows that part.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 12, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> "Elements" aren't the art. There are elements of NGA that go back hundreds of years, but the art is definitely less than 80 years old.
> 
> The process I see with TCC is similar to what happens with languages. Yes, a language continues so long as someone is actually speaking it, and it can be picked up by someone else at any time. But once the native speakers fall below a certain point, the likelihood of it continuing as a living language drops dramatically, because there are fewer and fewer chances for people to learn it as a full language, as it is spoken.
> 
> ...


Funny, for me boxing was just as easy to find as martial TCC.

I guess your mileage varies, eh Gerry?

As far as elements not being the art, that doesn't apply to Tai Chi Chuan at all.  That's all TCC ever had.


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## Oily Dragon (Jun 12, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> The comparison to boxing is odd. You can walk into a boxing gym in most American towns and get boxing lessons from someone who is well-versed in the full range of boxing.


This is also really funny and untrue.

Youve watched too much Rocky.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is also really funny and untrue.
> 
> Youve watched too much Rocky.


Your insult is misplaced. What I've done is looked around to see what's available in the places I've lived, as well as places I've visited.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 12, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I trained both at the same time (in different places).


How did that go? How were they different? In teaching style and in application? How do you feel that training was good or bad for whatever reason?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is also really funny and untrue.
> 
> Youve watched too much Rocky.


I’m not sure what it is that caused this argument. I’m not sure what it even means. I’m sure I trained tai chi as a martial art. Anyone can look up my Sigung and find that out. I’m also reasonably sure that we would all agree on what that means on a physical level. I also believe that you, and Xue and Wang all actually trained it in a martial way as well. If we are arguing about the availability of available instruction with martial as the focus then that is clearly subjective. If we are arguing about whether it  exists, then  I am sure we can give some examples of living teachers that produce high quality practitioners right?


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## Unkogami (Jun 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> How did that go? How were they different? In teaching style and in application? How do you feel that training was good or bad for whatever reason?


Edifying. I trained with a very highly respected member of the Chen lineage early mornings outside the wall at Xi'an, then longfist evenings in the Muslim quarter of the city with a very old teacher and a much younger trainer who put everything into practice. I wasn't at either place to judge or evaluate, I just wanted to learn. A very good experience on both ends. I also spent a lot of time working out with the Shaanxi provincial wrestling team as well, so I kept pretty busy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 12, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> I also spent a lot of time working out with the Shaanxi provincial wrestling team as well, so I kept pretty busy.


I have heard the Shaanxi wrestling has 81 different ways to apply "single leg". Have you heard about it? Do you know some of those moves?

Here is one of the "single leg" used in Shaanxi wrestling.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Jun 12, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> Edifying. I trained with a very highly respected member of the Chen lineage early mornings outside the wall at Xi'an, then longfist evenings in the Muslim quarter of the city with a very old teacher and a much younger trainer who put everything into practice. I wasn't at either place to judge or evaluate, I just wanted to learn. A very good experience on both ends. I also spent a lot of time working out with the Shaanxi provincial wrestling team as well, so I kept pretty busy.


Thank you for that.


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