# What is kenpo lacking?



## Mr. Grimm

undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO?  I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING.  IF MR. PARKER HAD  A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO?  ANY THOUGHTS?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO? I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING. IF MR. PARKER HAD A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO? ANY THOUGHTS?


You've obviously talked to the wrong people. Don't think everybody teaches Kenpo the same way eh!  BTW, have you seen the extensions?

Dark Lord


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## Mr. Grimm

No I Am But A Newbie.  If Takedowns Are Important  Why Arent These Taught To Beginners Instead Of Making The Student Wait Unitl Higher Ranks?


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## Ceicei

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> NOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO? I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING. IF MR. PARKER HAD A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO? ANY THOUGHTS?


What is lacking is not necessarily because of the art itself. There is no perfect art. What is lacking is if a student do not realize that the techniques are basically templates--we learn how the basics function, how motion works together. It is ciritical and paramount that a student learn how to be flexible with adapting and be willing to change quickly.

If the basics are taught as a very strong foundation and we have learned plenty of techniques, then we can use the principles taught that can be applicable in almost any situation. A student should not be trapped in the idea that certain techniques are good only for certain situations. If a situation happens that a technique hasn't been learned yet for that, it isn't time to panic. It's the time to call upon our understanding of motion--how blocks, strikes, locks, and parries work and how the physical body responds. Utilize principles such as opposing forces, marriage of gravity, contouring, etc.

Kenpo is much more than just forms and techniques.

You asked why takedowns/ground fighting isn't taught earlier to a newbie? The newbie needs to learn as much as possible regarding principles and concepts of motion. They are ingrained in every technique/form/set, but we learn them stage by stage as we become more proficient and aware. 

We tend to look at the outside first before we look at the inside (the mechanics of motion). 

- Ceicei


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## Michael Billings

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO? I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING. IF MR. PARKER HAD A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO? ANY THOUGHTS?


 On behalf of the Moderation and Admin team, I just wanted to welcome you to MartialTalk Mr. Grimm.  Hope you enjoy the Kenpo Community.

 There are lots of threads on this topic, both in the EPAK forums and Kenpo General.  I am not sure what you are asking here.  I do not see any lack of takedowns, strikedowns, buckles, sweeps, balance disruptions (by destroying the opponent's base), etc.  Long Form 5 is all takedowns or strikedowns.  As Clyde, the Dark Kenpo Lord (in whom the Force is strong), pointed out, the Black Belt Extensions bring many, many more takedowns into the system at that level.

 Once again ... welcome,
 --Michael Billings
 --MT Moderator--


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## gman

Grimm as a newbie to kenpo I would tend to agree with what you think you are seeing. I think the idea is to wait until you have a good grasp on fighting while standing. It is funny how all the proper stances go out the window in sparring. I have been trying to "use" kenpo when sparring instead of well, what ever it is I'm doing. Sometimes my sifu talks of thing that are going to follow a tech and I can see lots of jui jitsu in that. So be patient it only gets better. If you are looking for a strickly ground fighting style you might want to look at some of the grappling arts. I also train in BJJ but nearly everyone there trains in some striking art also. Most ground fighters will tell you that only ground fighting skills in the street might not do the trick. If you're looking for the sports aspect BJJ is a lot of fun but also very street practicle.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> No I Am But A Newbie. If Takedowns Are Important Why Arent These Taught To Beginners Instead Of Making The Student Wait Unitl Higher Ranks?


Takedowns are important, but it depends on who you're getting instruction from as to what they'll teach you, and at what level.

Dark Lord


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## Touch Of Death

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> No I Am But A Newbie.  If Takedowns Are Important  Why Arent These Taught To Beginners Instead Of Making The Student Wait Unitl Higher Ranks?


You are expected to master falling yourself before you go around tossing people to the ground. There are lots of things we don't teach to "beginners".
Sean


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## Michael Billings

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> You are expected to master falling yourself before you go around tossing people to the ground. There are lots of things we don't teach to "beginners".
> Sean


 An excellent point that I did not mention - duh?  The brain train passed the station ---

 -Michael


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Mr. Grimm:

This is my favorite topic on this forum.  I've participated in many arguments here and elsewhere over the last year.  Let me try and paraphrase and summarize:

*Kenpo is not lacking.*
1)  Those who have truly learned Kenpo concepts and principles can apply them in situations not specifically addressed by the standard Kenpo technique curriculum.  
2)  Those who train at the top Kenpo schools do indeed learn to apply these principles in a variety of situations. 
3)  Many of those who claim that Kenpo is lacking have not developed a deep understanding of the principles and concepts, did not receive the best instruction, have not thought through their material thoroughly, and/or do not train with enough intensity and variation.
4)  The longer and deeper you delve into Kenpo, the better you will be able to apply it in any situation and fill in any perceived gaps.

*Kenpo is lacking.*
1)  Kenpo does not have adequate ground work or grappling technique.  Kenpo concepts and principles can be applied on the ground, but the techniques do not directly translate.  Additional techniques and training time is necessary to fight successfully on the ground.
2)  Kenpo training is not alive enough.  Kenpoists spend too much time on Kata practice, doing static drills, and rehearsing pre-arranged techniques on cooperating partners.
3)  Martial Arts have changed dramatically in the last 10 years.  Kenpo has not changed dramatically and many schools still teach the same curriculum as they did 20 years ago.

I suggest you search the Kenpo General and EPAK forums and review some old threads...but I think I've captured the gist of it here.


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## MJS

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> No I Am But A Newbie.  If Takedowns Are Important  Why Arent These Taught To Beginners Instead Of Making The Student Wait Unitl Higher Ranks?



The new student is gonna have enough to worry about, without worrying about a sweep and takedown.  Those things are more advanced moves and should be shown to the student at the proper belt level.  You cant expect the new student to learn everything.  If that was the  case, dont you think that there would be some overload on the students part??  Having the student learn the stances, footwork, and basic blocks, punches and kicks is the best place to start IMO.  

Mike


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## MJS

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO?  I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING.  IF MR. PARKER HAD  A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO?  ANY THOUGHTS?



Sure, there is some grappling in Kenpo.  However, there is a big difference if you're comparing it to BJJ, which of course, is an art in and of itself.  You can apply Kenpo to the ground to an extent.  After a VERY long time, and with thanks to DKL, I'm starting to realize this!!  As I posted on another thread, I was recently doing some grappling and actually found 2 Kenpo techs. that I was able to apply.

I'm a huge fan of crosstraining, and trying to be as well rounded as possible.  While I have never intended for anyone to leave Kenpo and take up Judo or BJJ, I do believe that ideas and concepts can be taken from those arts and added to your Kenpo.

Mike


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## Mr. Grimm

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Mr. Grimm:
> 
> This is my favorite topic on this forum.  I've participated in many arguments here and elsewhere over the last year.  Let me try and paraphrase and summarize:
> 
> *Kenpo is not lacking.*
> 1)  Those who have truly learned Kenpo concepts and principles can apply them in situations not specifically addressed by the standard Kenpo technique curriculum.
> 2)  Those who train at the top Kenpo schools do indeed learn to apply these principles in a variety of situations.
> 3)  Many of those who claim that Kenpo is lacking have not developed a deep understanding of the principles and concepts, did not receive the best instruction, have not thought through their material thoroughly, and/or do not train with enough intensity and variation.
> 4)  The longer and deeper you delve into Kenpo, the better you will be able to apply it in any situation and fill in any perceived gaps.
> 
> *Kenpo is lacking.*
> 1)  Kenpo does not have adequate ground work or grappling technique.  Kenpo concepts and principles can be applied on the ground, but the techniques do not directly translate.  Additional techniques and training time is necessary to fight successfully on the ground.
> 2)  Kenpo training is not alive enough.  Kenpoists spend too much time on Kata practice, doing static drills, and rehearsing pre-arranged techniques on cooperating partners.
> 3)  Martial Arts have changed dramatically in the last 10 years.  Kenpo has not changed dramatically and many schools still teach the same curriculum as they did 20 years ago.
> 
> I suggest you search the Kenpo General and EPAK forums and review some old threads...but I think I've captured the gist of it here.


Well I am glad i was able to get input. It's just that i have never seen any kenpo schools actually on the ground struggling to manipulate and counter manipulate each. I realize there are techniques that have a take down move but are there any that start you off in the prone position with someone having you locked up?


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## Nick Ellerton

Ok i no for a fact that Kenpo does not generally have take downs but strike downs, and what is it lacking, people to whom are 100 percent satisfied with the art, if you dont like the art then get out of it, it is very simple.
cheers.
Nick.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> Well I am glad i was able to get input. It's just that i have never seen any kenpo schools actually on the ground struggling to manipulate and counter manipulate each. I realize there are techniques that have a take down move but are there any that start you off in the prone position with someone having you locked up?


You say you're a newbie to the art, how is it you've seen so much?

In the prone position locked up, kinda defeats the purpose of the whole Kenpo system don't ya think?   They have to take you to the ground and lock you up before Kenpo kicks in?   You may as well get yourself enrolled in a good BJJ club if that's what you want to learn.

Dark Lord


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> Ok i no for a fact that Kenpo does not generally have take downs but strike downs, and what is it lacking, people to whom are 100 percent satisfied with the art, if you dont like the art then get out of it, it is very simple.
> cheers.
> Nick.


Well said.

Dark Lord


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## MisterMike

Well, seems to me there aren't any ground fighting techniques originally in Kenpo. Looks like you have to find a school that has created some or find a ground fighting style.

Of course a Kenpo school that creates its own techniques for ground fighting is very "taboo" because it seems there will always be those who think everything has to come out of Infinite Insights or those Manuals.


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## pete

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Of course a Kenpo school that creates its own techniques for ground fighting is very "taboo" because it seems there will always be those who think everything has to come out of Infinite Insights or those Manuals.



don't fret mr. mike, as there are probably more of us who do not!


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## Mr. Grimm

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> Ok i no for a fact that Kenpo does not generally have take downs but strike downs, and what is it lacking, people to whom are 100 percent satisfied with the art, if you dont like the art then get out of it, it is very simple.
> cheers.
> Nick.


 I enjoy kenpo but I wanted to get other peoples opinions on what they think is missing. I'm not in trying to compare kenpo at all to BJJ.  But what what if we at someday end up on the ground due to a fatal flaw.  Thats where the "condition and guts" take over I guess. So now I ask,  of all the techniques, basics, counter grabs etc., what do you guys think should be used in a prone position with the exceptions of biting, clawing, pinching. What portions of the kenpo background do you think could be used?


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## Goldendragon7

The lack of visual aids..... I think we can use a ton more of these....  many people are very visual and these aids would certainly be a great help.

 :asian:


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## Ceicei

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Well, seems to me there aren't any ground fighting techniques originally in Kenpo. Looks like you have to find a school that has created some or find a ground fighting style.
> 
> Of course a Kenpo school that creates its own techniques for ground fighting is very "taboo" because it seems there will always be those who think everything has to come out of Infinite Insights or those Manuals.



I guess that makes my kenpo school "taboo" or rather, a progressive school.  We do have some ground fighting techniques that were added on top of our standard curriculum.  However, these are generally taught to the children early before the adults get to learn them.

- Ceicei


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## MisterMike

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I guess that makes my kenpo school "taboo" or rather, a progressive school.  We do have some ground fighting techniques that were added on top of our standard curriculum.  However, these are generally taught to the children early before the adults get to learn them.
> 
> - Ceicei



Hey, at least they are there!


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## Goldendragon7

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I guess that makes my kenpo school a progressive school.  We do have some ground fighting techniques that were added.  - Ceicei



Yes, you could say that.  Good for your instructor and you.  As long as you keep the principles alive and accurate ..... no problem, you are actively "doing" KENPO!  

Yet, there are some out there with limited knowledge of the System,  that would brand some studios with terms like "taboo" and state that because it does not come out of the Infinite Insights or "those" manuals it is invalid or, well bad or wrong.  

*This is far from the truth​*.

You see, if you read very carefully, you will find and see that these areas are discussed and necessary areas of study in EPAK.   Just because there are not "specific" ground techniques in "those" manuals .... some seem to feel we are without...... sigh....  Oh well, examine their lineage and you'll probably find why they say what they do.  

 :asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

I...I...I just can't keep quiet any longer about the Kenpo on the ground thing.

Many Kenpoists have sought to supplement their technique and training arsenal with grappling of some form or another:  Al Tracy with Shootfighting, John McSweeney with Judo, John Sepulveda with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, etc., etc.  Some Kenpoists are trying to apply their Kenpo techniques directly onto the ground--with mixed results.  Some Kenpoists are ignoring this completely.  

As Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Submission Wrestling grow in popularity and availability, it behooves every Kenpoist to take a class or attend a seminar to get some basic idea of what the grapplers think and do.  I am not saying anyone should abandon their Kenpo, just --to interject a metaphor-- taste some sushi and then think about what Soy and Wasabi can do for your Steak and Potatoes.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

> Yes, you could say that. Good for your instructor and you. As long as you keep the principles alive and accurate ..... no problem, you are actively "doing" KENPO!


Mr. C,  I usually defer completely to your wisdom and eloquence.  This time, I have to respond:

There are many good Kenpoists who are doing good Kenpo who do not "keep the principles alive and accurate" and instead teach an older form of Kenpo learned from Mr. Parker or the Tracy's where articulation of the principles is not the main teaching vehicle.  



> Yet, there are some out there with limited knowledge of the System, that would brand some studios with terms like "taboo" and state that because it does not come out of the Infinite Insights or "those" manuals it is invalid or, well bad or wrong.


There are also many with very deep knowledge of the system who feel very strongly that the Kenpo OUTLINED in Infinite Insights, that Mr. Parker taught to them in great detail, needs no alteration or enhancement.



> You see, if you read very carefully, you will find and see that these areas are discussed and necessary areas of study in EPAK. Just because there are not "specific" ground techniques in "those" manuals .... some seem to feel we are without...... sigh.... Oh well, examine their lineage and you'll probably find why they say what they do.


Here, I think you have a great insight.  But lineage cannot always predict fealty.  There are high-ranking students of Mr. Parker who choose to unwaveringly follow Mr. Parker&#8217;s path, and there are others who choose to go off-road a little.


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## KenpoTess

We incorporate Samurai Jui-jitsu with AK and it works for us. 
Almost every sparring session someone ends up on the ground,(on purpose.. just to practice grappling)..  
so in a real altercation at least we will have an idea how to deal.

Tess


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## pete

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> There are high-ranking students of Mr. Parker who choose to unwaveringly follow Mr. Parkers path, and there are others who choose to go off-road a little.



better to have a wheel in the ditch than to drive constantly down the middle of the road...


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## Goldendragon7

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I...I... I just can't keep quiet any longer about the Kenpo on the ground thing.
> 
> Many Kenpoists have sought to supplement their technique and training arsenal with grappling of some form or another.
> 
> Some Kenpoists are ignoring this completely.
> 
> I am not saying anyone should abandon their Kenpo, just --to interject a metaphor-- taste some sushi and then think about what Soy and Wasabi can do for your Steak and Potatoes.



OFK.... I hear what you are saying and agree.  At the same time, I do feel that the Base System does have the "elements" to  be able to adjust the given standup material to the ground.  Granted not all instructors have the skill to do that possibly... at which case what you say is revelent.... check out what is out there and see if any thing is of benefit to you.... (that's what Ed Parker did in the early days...... for gosh sakes). LOL

So if you can.... use the system .... if you can't..... go explore.   :uhyeah:  simple.....  :jedi1:


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## kenpo_cory

In our school we address the "going to the ground issue" but we havent created any techniques specifically for the ground. We basically focus on how to defend ourselves while were down and the most proficient way to return to our feet.


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## Goldendragon7

*Old Fat Kenpoka.....*
Mr. C,  I usually defer completely to your wisdom and eloquence.  This time, I have to respond:

There are many good Kenpoists who are doing good Kenpo who do not "keep the principles alive and accurate" and instead teach an older form of Kenpo learned from Mr. Parker or the Tracy's where articulation of the principles is not the main teaching vehicle.  

*Yes, I understand that, however, Principles are principles old or new they don't change.  Missing a few maybe that were discovered or outlined in later years yes..... but not alive.
*

*Old Fat Kenpoka.....*
There are also many with very deep knowledge of the system who feel very strongly that the Kenpo OUTLINED in Infinite Insights, that Mr. Parker taught to them in great detail, needs no alteration or enhancement.

*Yes, I understand that as well, but those that you speak of.....  did not learn the lessons of Ed Parker well if they take that attitude.  He told everyone himself... to be a thinker not just a follower (yet he was wise enough to realize that the human race has both) that is why he worked so hard to lay out a "Base" curriculum for all to use (some more than others) yet also an equation formula to be able to expand variably any and all of the material he worked on and expected us to carry on after..

Behold the 9th Purple Belt saying....... "Knowledge is BOUND when one is compelled to tradition..... Knowledge is endless when tradition is bound".   This applies to our system as well!
*

*Old Fat Kenpoka.....*
Here, I think you have a great insight, but lineage cannot always predict realty.  There are high-ranking students of Mr. Parker who choose to unwaveringly follow Mr. Parkers path, and there are others who choose to go off-road a little.

*Again, yes you are right.  When I speak of lineage, I mean the instructors methodology of teaching the said material completely to the student base, which is critical.  If the teacher does not set forth a good training platform for the student physically, mentally and spiritually..... then yes, you will end up with much fragmentation and a lot lost in translation.  Usually, (not always) apples fall close to the tree.... but yes I agree with you .... some do roll downhill to the sewer.
*
 :asian:

*p.s. BTW....It's ok to differ... completely or partially.... just do it in a respectful manner to debate your points.   Progress was not possible due to the stubborn belief in the established traditional system...... and thank you for the compliment!
*
 :uhyeah:


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## Ceicei

Huh?  I go to work-out and return back to find people still discussing whether Kenpo has anything for groundwork or whether Kenpo should be taught "the way it is" and instead cross-train with another art.  

Why should we underestimate Kenpo?

Just a few things to consider:

Do pressure points change just because the attacker and defender are on the ground?  No.  Do principles and concepts (contouring, borrowed force, opposing forces, etc.) go out the window because of being horizontal?  No.

Techniques are just that--templates of motions that incorporate different principles and concepts.

True, much of Kenpo is a stand-up fighting art, but to imply Kenpo has no application to the ground overlooks the versatility and a lack of understanding of or insufficient exploration of these principles and concepts.

Mr. Edmund Parker believed in the Kenpoist being able to adapt and use what is learned, even if we are upside down--in other words, make Kenpo fit our needs, not us to fit the needs of Kenpo.

If we restrict ourselves to only what is taught in the manuals and fail to follow his encouragement to create freestyle techniques, then we are doing American Kenpo a disservice.

What is to stop us from making freestyle techs be groundfighting ones?

Will there never be a situation when the defender has to fight on the ground?  To ignore this is to ignore reality.

- Ceicei


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## Goldendragon7

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Huh?  I go to work-out and return back to find people still discussing whether Kenpo has anything for groundwork or whether Kenpo should be taught "the way it is" and instead cross-train with another art.
> 
> Why should we underestimate Kenpo?
> 
> Just a few things to consider:
> 
> Do pressure points change just because the attacker and defender are on the ground?  No.  Do principles and concepts (contouring, borrowed force, opposing forces, etc.) go out the window because of being horizontal?  No.
> 
> Techniques are just that--templates of motions that incorporate different principles and concepts.
> 
> True, much of Kenpo is a stand-up fighting art, but to imply Kenpo has no application to the ground overlooks the versatility and a lack of understanding of or insufficient exploration of these principles and concepts.
> 
> Mr. Edmund Parker believed in the Kenpoist being able to adapt and use what is learned, even if we are upside down--in other words, make Kenpo fit our needs, not us to fit the needs of Kenpo.
> 
> If we restrict ourselves to only what is taught in the manuals and fail to follow his encouragement to create freestyle techniques, then we are doing American Kenpo a disservice.
> 
> What is to stop us from making freestyle techs be groundfighting ones?
> 
> Will there never be a situation when the defender has to fight on the ground?  To ignore this is to ignore reality.
> 
> - Ceicei





Wow.... I've been waiting for you Obi Wan..... we meet again at last..... when  I left I was but the Student..... now ..  lol


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## MJS

kenpo_cory said:
			
		

> In our school we address the "going to the ground issue" but we havent created any techniques specifically for the ground. We basically focus on how to defend ourselves while were down and the most proficient way to return to our feet.



Yes, thank you!!!  This is also something that I have said thousands of times.  At least have the knowledge to get back to your feet!!

Mike


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## Mr. Grimm

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I...I...I just can't keep quiet any longer about the Kenpo on the ground thing.
> 
> Many Kenpoists have sought to supplement their technique and training arsenal with grappling of some form or another:  Al Tracy with Shootfighting, John McSweeney with Judo, John Sepulveda with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, etc., etc.  Some Kenpoists are trying to apply their Kenpo techniques directly onto the ground--with mixed results.  Some Kenpoists are ignoring this completely.
> 
> As Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Submission Wrestling grow in popularity and availability, it behooves every Kenpoist to take a class or attend a seminar to get some basic idea of what the grapplers think and do.  I am not saying anyone should abandon their Kenpo, just --to interject a metaphor-- taste some sushi and then think about what Soy and Wasabi can do for your Steak and Potatoes.


 Now thats what I'm talking about!


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## parkerkarate

I do not know what belt you curently are, but I will leave you with a few techniques.

- Dance of Death
- Trusting Wedge with the extension
- Obscure Wing's extension
- Twisted Twig

and many others, just think about those, if you do not understand what parts I am talking about, just ask and I will explain further.

And I am not yelling so don't feel that I am mad


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

parkerkarate:

You've missed about a year of inane banter on the groundfighting thing (with me as a primary inane poster).  The question is not about doing any of those techniques on someone.  The question is how to fight back when someone is trying to do them on you!


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## parkerkarate

improv's?


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## RCastillo

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Mr. Grimm:
> 
> This is my favorite topic on this forum.  I've participated in many arguments here and elsewhere over the last year.  Let me try and paraphrase and summarize:
> 
> *Kenpo is not lacking.*
> 1)  Those who have truly learned Kenpo concepts and principles can apply them in situations not specifically addressed by the standard Kenpo technique curriculum.
> 2)  Those who train at the top Kenpo schools do indeed learn to apply these principles in a variety of situations.
> 3)  Many of those who claim that Kenpo is lacking have not developed a deep understanding of the principles and concepts, did not receive the best instruction, have not thought through their material thoroughly, and/or do not train with enough intensity and variation.
> 4)  The longer and deeper you delve into Kenpo, the better you will be able to apply it in any situation and fill in any perceived gaps.
> 
> *Kenpo is lacking.*
> 1)  Kenpo does not have adequate ground work or grappling technique.  Kenpo concepts and principles can be applied on the ground, but the techniques do not directly translate.  Additional techniques and training time is necessary to fight successfully on the ground.
> 2)  Kenpo training is not alive enough.  Kenpoists spend too much time on Kata practice, doing static drills, and rehearsing pre-arranged techniques on cooperating partners.
> 3)  Martial Arts have changed dramatically in the last 10 years.  Kenpo has not changed dramatically and many schools still teach the same curriculum as they did 20 years ago.
> 
> I suggest you search the Kenpo General and EPAK forums and review some old threads...but I think I've captured the gist of it here.



Stop it Mr. Wortman, you're making me look bad here on what Kenpo lacks! :uhyeah:


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## RCastillo

First of all Mr. C. stop using me as a "bad example " for Kenpo, second, Mr. Wortman, I don' like soy, and wasabi on my eats. Lastly, what we need is a good looking leader like myself, so I'm nominating me! That should end the controversy right there! :lookie:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Wait a minute here!  I thought I was the bad example for Kenpo.   :fart:


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## RCastillo

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Wait a minute here!  I thought I was the bad example for Kenpo.   :fart:



Well that must mean we're both gonna get thrown out of MT! :uhohh:


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## Goldendragon7

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Well that must mean we're both gonna get thrown out of MT! :uhohh:



Nawwwwww........ I vote keep ya's....

Like I said before.... we can always use you as bad examples........ :uhyeah: 

J/K of course......
 :asian:


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## Doc

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO?  I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING.  IF MR. PARKER HAD  A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO?  ANY THOUGHTS?


Perhaps you could elaborate on what's missing from YOUR Kenpo experience, instead of telling us what's missing from OUR'S.

And in answer to your question, clearly what is missing is a plethora of truly knowledgeable teachers which is why people keep making assumptions about ALL of kenpo when they only know of THEIR kenpo.


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## Ceicei

Doc said:
			
		

> Perhaps you could elaborate on what's missing from YOUR Kenpo experience, instead of telling us what's missing from OUR'S.
> 
> And in answer to your question, clearly what is missing is a plethora of truly knowledgeable teachers which is why people keep making assumptions about ALL of kenpo when they only know of THEIR kenpo.



Agreed.  *salute*

- Ceicei


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Doc said:
			
		

> Perhaps you could elaborate on what's missing from YOUR Kenpo experience, instead of telling us what's missing from OUR'S.
> 
> And in answer to your question, clearly what is missing is a plethora of truly knowledgeable teachers which is why people keep making assumptions about ALL of kenpo when they only know of THEIR kenpo.


 

I'm always amazed people bring this up when they haven't researched Kenpo at all.     Knowledge can only be found where you seek.    If you want more, find more, there are Kenpo instructors with knowledge most have not seen or experienced.

Dark Lord


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## jeffkyle

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I'm always amazed people bring this up when they haven't researched Kenpo at all.     Knowledge can only be found where you seek.    If you want more, find more, there are Kenpo instructors with knowledge most have not seen or experienced.
> 
> Dark Lord



But then I wouldn't be Blissfully Ignorant!!!


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## kenpoangel

Mr. Grimm said:
			
		

> undefinedundefinedNot to start aundefinedNOT TO START AN ARGUMENT..... BUT WHAT THINGS IF ANY ARE LACKING IN KENPO?  I RECENTLY TALKED WITH PEOPLE ABOUT KENPO'S LACK OF GROUND FIGHTING.  IF MR. PARKER HAD  A SOLID JUJITSU BACKGROUND WHY IS THERE NOT MORE TAKE DOWNS IN KENPO?  ANY THOUGHTS?




The main thing I've noticed it lacks is a SENSE OF HUMOR!

So much bickering and fighting over pointless stuff.  We're all learning something and getting something from our training.  The rest of this crap simply doesn't matter.

If ya can't laugh at yourself...laugh at your training  :iws:  :btg: 

Back to the comedy store 

Angela


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## kenpoangel

kenpoangel said:
			
		

> The main thing I've noticed it lacks is a SENSE OF HUMOR!
> 
> So much bickering and fighting over pointless stuff.  We're all learning something and getting something from our training.  The rest of this crap simply doesn't matter.
> 
> If ya can't laugh at yourself...laugh at your training  :iws:  :btg:
> 
> Back to the comedy store
> 
> Angela




Darn it,,,

That was suPPOSed to read, "If you can't laugh at yourself,,,laugh at your training partner"  I think my icons ate it...HAHAHAHA

Back to the writing board,

Angela


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Right on Angela!  So much flaming over so little!  So many knickers in knots over little technique application differences!


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Chow and Parker both modified kenpo to reduce the amount of ground-fighting, believing it was better to eliminate an opponent while upright, rather than going to the ground (as with a judo-player) and risk being pounced by his buddies.  The old pine-tree stuff had much less emphasis on high-speed percussive striking than AK, and more on take-downs, throws, chokes and submissions.

The wheel turns again.  The judo players of the time were less lethal than the Brazilians...you could pop them a couple times before they got you to the floor. And, besides, many of the self-defense techniques make much more sense in the context of someone who is siezing you to toss you on the floor.  What is the set-up for most judo throws? Two-handed lapel grab, or a single lapel grap with the other hand free to assist the momentum of the throw.  Do you think there were a lot of people wearing heavy jackets in t-shirt-laden Hawaii? Lone Kimono, Twin Kimono, and the list stays solid all the way through.

BJJ comes along and doesn't reach for your lapels...they latch on to you or dive for a leg too far below the radar to fire off charging ram effectively.  So do what Chow and Parker did...ADAPT!  Either study the other arts to be able to fight in that aquarium, or to learn enough about their ins that you can develop Kenpo replies to common assaults.  After hearing an EPAK 4th degree teaching captured leaves say he had no idea how someone would get you into this position, I opted to learn the other guys' stuff. And I wasn't the first. Dave German added Judo and Chin Na to kenpo years ago. And the list goes on.  A bunch of the Hawaiians also cross-train in Wally Jay's or Sig Kufferath's jujutsu/judo systems to augment their kenpo abilities.  

There are still jujutsu things hidden in kenpo that make a lot more sense when you return to the ground. Deep kneel & close kneel are stances in kenpo, that resemble going knee-up on someone in BJJ an awful lot; instead of doing it in front of your oppnent, do it on your opponent. 

Lot's of very good kenpoists augment their training...some with FMA, some with grappling, and some with combat handgun training.  Are they now no longer kenpo practitioners? Has their five swords somehow mystically morphed into a Shotokan bunkai? If it is time to adapt to survive, then do it.  In terms of the "love kenpo or leave it" thing, ...When did we become defenders of the one true faith, instead of the thinkers Mr. Parker was trying to create in the first place?

Here's an idea for adaptation...new extensions.  Whack the guy with five swords, then shoot on him to pull him to the floor, mount him, hit him in the face till he gets sick of it and turns prone, then finish it with the rear naked choke with grapevined legs (mata leaon).  Multiple opponents? Don't finish the extension.

Evolution is simple: Adapt, or die.  The simplicity of kenpo...despite all of its not-so-simple definitions, is that the vocabulary of motion empowers us to identify and articulate the technical aspects of ANY ART, thereby making assimilation not only possible, but easy.

OK.  Off the horse.  Sorry y'all.


----------



## DavidCC

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Chow and Parker both modified kenpo to reduce the amount of ground-fighting, believing it was better to eliminate an opponent while upright, rather than going to the ground (as with a judo-player) and risk being pounced by his buddies. The old pine-tree stuff had much less emphasis on high-speed percussive striking than AK, and more on take-downs, throws, chokes and submissions...
> .


Thank you, that's a very interesting post.  The Shaolin Kempo I study uses lots of takedown / finish combos, based on Chin-Na, I believe.  I like it 

Soy sauce is HORRIBLE on potatos.  it sure seems like a good diea, but just try it


----------



## Goldendragon7

DavidCC said:
			
		

> I use lots of takedown / finish combos,  I like it



I do also, and have since orange belt!  I guess it just depends on your particular training lineage.

:asian:


----------



## Kempojujutsu

While I may not be an expert at EPAK. I have looked at Long 5 and the techniques that come from it. Two techniques do have jujutsu techniques in them Sleeper with a shoulder choke, and Dance of Death with a single leg tackle. Back Breaker could apply a rear naked choke in it. After that most of the takedowns are crude takedowns closer to what JKD would do. I didn't see much into O goshi, O soto gari type throws. Most invovled kicking the knee out. I also didn't see any type of joint locking. I would like to see kenpo more like what David German does. He does included joint locking, chokes and throws into his kenpo techniques not just kicking out the knee. Kicking out the knee is not a bad thing. But if you are in a clinch or laying on your back it's going to be hard to do that.


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## rmcrobertson

Hey, here's a tough question: what art did Mr. German learn first? 

And another toughie:  why, exactly, are people who claim to be beginners worrying about their ability to handle absolutely everything?


----------



## Rainman

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Hey, here's a tough question: what art did Mr. German learn first?
> 
> And another toughie:  why, exactly, are people who claim to be beginners worrying about their ability to handle absolutely everything?



Judo


----------



## Doc

"Whose Kenpo is lacking what?' would be a beeter question.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> "Whose Kenpo is lacking what?' would be a beeter question.


Doc, a subjectivist? Naaaww.


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Doc, a subjectivist? Naaaww.


Well you know everything is reelative.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Doc said:
			
		

> "Whose Kenpo is lacking what?' would be a beeter question.


sounds like a subject for a new thread :jedi1: 
Sean


----------



## MJS

Doc said:
			
		

> "Whose Kenpo is lacking what?' would be a beeter question.



You're right on that one Doc!  

Mike


----------



## Nick Ellerton

The one thing i do not understand at my level of training is why there is such an in depth look into what the art is lacking. I know from my experiences within the art that there is a more than satisfactory level of skill. Naturally nothing will ever be whole and will always lack something, but thats life, but i think it comes down to the individual to dictate what it is lacking and what its not and it also depends on how seriously in which the individual takes the art itself. But in my opinion, Kenpo lacks only what we take too much time to look for. but thats just me. 

take care guys.


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## parkerkarate

Very well put


----------



## Journey

I know this comes about six months late but I'll post it anyway. 

I read an article in one of the MA mags, where Parker Jr. was being interviewed. He was talking about the contrabutions S.G.M. Parker's students have made to kenpo. One of the things mentioned was that S.G.M. Parker actually developed a ground fighting system with someone (don't recall the name) and it was still taught (at the time of the article). Can anyone confirm this, Ron Chapel was also mentioned in the article so DOC may be able to shed some light on the subject. 

I made a photo copy of the article, if I can find it I will update the posting.


----------



## Seig

We would love to see it, please attribute it properly so we cannot get nailed by the author.

Thanks,
Seig


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## Bill Lear

This is the complete article (before it was edited and printed in Black Belt Magazine):

*AMERICAN KENPO'S NEW VOICE*

First, let me clear up a couple of misconceptions that has brought much unfounded criticism from outsiders to the first American Martial Art, American Kenpo was taught as an incomplete art but, they, somehow KNOW, the complete art. Interestingly, these people all claim to be legitimized by a prior member of the Family Tree, but still teach the system that My Father had began to organize. The Mitose and Chow lineage systems are still around today, but if you compare the number of Ed Parker studios to any other you will see that the Parker lineage studios clearly out number any others. Mitose came to My Father in the early sixties in Pasadena with the idea of a collaboration between the two. The philosophical differences between them were significant enough for My Dad to decline.

As a child, My Father was always teaching me but, like most youth, I had different interests than Dad. I had a natural artistic talent, and ultimately went off to college to Hawaii to study Illustration. Upon finishing college, I was given the task of developing a computer system for the family business. As my graphic arts skills matured, I was ultimately pressed into service running the production wing of Dads publishing company. Supervising and working on every aspect of everything he did in print and video, forced me to understand American Kenpo like few others. Its true my physical lessons werent keeping pace with my intellectual progress, and I am not where I would like to be but, thats because I could get away from some of his impromptu classes in the kitchen or den but, I couldnt get away from work. Nevertheless, even against my own wishes, I was a constant student of the Founder of American Kenpo. 

Recently I have become concerned with other people deciding what my fathers art is all about, and the direction it should follow. In some cases persons previously associated with My Father have been attempting to re-write history in their favor. Although I dont consider myself American Kenpos new Grandmaster, I do consider myself to be the Ambassador to American Kenpo, and what you could call, the extended voice of Ed Parker Sr. 

After all, I am his only son and I have made it my business to remind people of what My Father would have said or would have wanted in certain situations. Sort of a Kenpo Conscious. In this area, no one is more of an authority than I am. Although now that Im a black belt, rank has never been important to me as it was to My Father. I know, no matter how much I progress, I can only be compared to My Dad. No one can fill his shoes. Certainly, I know I cant, and thats why I dont try. Fortunately, as I got older, my interest caused me to intensify my training, (to My Fathers delight,) before he passed. The only thing that surprises me is, I keep running into people who are amazed when they participate in my seminars. They always seem to say, I didnt know you studied Kenpo. I thought it was pretty simple. How could a son live with Ed Parker for thirty years, and not? I have studied with several of My Dads top Black Belts and been promoted by them. They have a wealth of knowledge and notes taken from My Father since the sixties, and are very helpful in several areas of training.

Historically, the state of the art taught by Professor Chow or James Mitose was extremely primitive in the fifties and sixties. What we call a technique today, did not exist at that time. Most techniques consisted of only two or three simplistic moves, which was fairly indicative of the state of almost all martial arts in the late forties, to the sixties. Ed Parker was a major contributor to the evolution of the Martial Arts through His theories and principles.

My Fathers first book on Kenpo Karate was published in the early sixties, and although devoid of principles, demonstrated techniques with three and four rather simple movements, and discussed pressure points and nerve strikes. It was considered both innovative and outrageous, (for being non-traditional,) at the same time. If you follow the paper trail of books and magazines, as well as movies, you can see how all arts, (not just Kenpo) have evolved slowly over the years. Bruce Lees crowd pleasing demonstration at the International Championships in 1964, would hardly raise an eyebrow today. My Dad often said the champions from his early tournaments would ...pay good money for... him ...to burn the film of their competition. Compared to contemporary students, they looked like poor white belts.

This leads to the next misconception. American Kenpo has always been thought by some to be this immense body of work with a beginning, middle and an ending. Nothing could be further from the truth. Ed Parkers American Kenpo has always been in a state of evolution. Any criticism aimed at His System, must specifically address a particular part of His System, at a particular point in time during its evolution. My Father said,  Kenpo never changes, but it is always in a state of perpetual refinement. This contradicts those who teach the art, and choose not to change.

Indeed massive refinements were made to the System over time. Changes where made by My Dad as he discovered new concepts and principles, refined them, and integrated them into His System. His discovery of Reverse Motion in the sixties, virtually changed almost everything previously created. But, it did not invalidate His earlier work. So those who suggest elements of the System have been left out, can only address what the state of the art was when they learned the art from Ed Parker, and how long did they studied with Him. After coming to the mainland from Hawaii, He began instructing what Professor Chow was teaching at that time. Always being logical in his analytical approach, and as My Dad constantly discovered new principles and concepts, the art evolved and from then on became Ed Parkers System in progress.

Those who have seen his Black Belt Diploma know My Father was ranked in three arts. Kenpo, Jiu-jitsu, and Kara-Te. Undoubtedly He drew on all elements of the Martial Arts when he began creating American Kenpo. As an aside, it might be interesting to note My Fathers diploma was signed by William K.S. Chow, and no one else.

Ed Parkers system is a ninety-five percent conceptual product of the mind of Ed Parker, and is only superficially related to any of his previous training. This distinction is important because it removes those who have never studied directly and continuously with Ed Parker, to a position making any rational criticism of his art, at best, superficial and un-informed. Those who left in the sixties are uninformed with regard to newer material. Those who began training later are familiar only with the motion side of Kenpo and lack perspective. Almost no one transcends the sixties to His passing. There were many who were around. However, they were not part of the overall evolution process. My Dad used to say When you ask people how long they have studied, they tell you how long they have lived since they started.

The system contains many elements, with which, many might not be familiar. My Dad taught what he wanted, to whom he wanted. So, because you arent familiar with something, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I have seen My Dad teach something, and the same day, teach the same thing completely different to someone else. He had what I call little laboratories all over the place. Giving different instructors different elements or experiments with their students was not unusual. He catered to the strengths of his instructors, based on their understanding of principles coupled with their physical abilities, personal preferences, and educational capabilities. How He felt about you as a person also played a major role. After all, who hasnt learned more when the instructor likes you. To My Dads credit, he made everyone feel like they were getting all the information. What they were getting was all the information he wanted to give to them. It brings to mind the old saying  I taught you everything you know, not everything I know. We must all check our egos and let our Kenpo speak for itself. Everyone has worth.

Indeed, if one has read and understood all of My dads books (that I put together) they would have only scratched the surface of the depth of the mans thought process. Remember, those who took a lesson with him were taught what he wanted to teach them, and the System of the moment. We know what he taught was rather extensive and extremely demanding on its practitioners, both physically and intellectually as well as effective. But we must never forget, there is ineffective, effective, more effective, and most effective. We need to remove the word wrong from our Kenpo vocabulary. It invalidates, and is counter productive.

Very purposely, my Father limited most of His teaching to certain material in an effort to spread the art. The martial arts community short of seeing the Grandmaster in his physical and intellectual equinox has rarely seen His other levels of Kenpo. Many of us as students, have definitely felt the other levels of kenpo, but most could not relate to the intangable aspects of the art.

Motion Kenpo (also called Commercial Kenpo by me) deals only with the concepts and theories of motion as it pertains to the Kenpo System and, does not have a stated purpose beyond Elongated circles and rounded off corners. Doesnt this seem just a little to simplistic to encompass the many aspects of American Kenpo? After all, this phrase is devoid of any of the philosophical, humanitarian, mental, or even the spiritual side of American Kenpo. So, how could this simple phrase collectively define American Kenpos in its entirety?

Although there is no doubt the information My Father conveyed to most of his public and private students was indeed excellent and good information, it was only a precursor to what he would eventually teach, once he had accomplished his primary goal, spreading and making His Kenpo the International Art that it should be.

However, My Dad knew his time was short. He felt a driving compulsion to get American Kenpo out to the masses. He wanted His innovative system to take its rightful place in the world of martial arts, like so many other cultural, sport based styles had done. He criticized traditional styles for passing themselves off as self-defense or fighting systems to the public. He knew that given the opportunity to compare, His American Kenpo would prevail, even to the untrained American public.

In that process, My Father made many concessions for public appeal. He attached the word karate to American Kenpo because no one had heard of Kenpo, and Karate was the flavor of the month with the American public. Servicemen, after World War II, brought their training back to the United States, and the public was fascinated with this mystical oriental art. Even though Kenpo was Chinese in origin, he adopted the Japanese Karate-Do rank structure and uniform. He even stuck the word karate into his Kenpo Creed in his first Kenpo book. In those days everything was Karate. Chinese, Korean, Okinawan, Hawaiian. It didnt make any difference. Later on , he considered trying to undo some of those things but, they had become such a part of His System, he just decided to leave it alone. He did eventually decide to get his students into black uniforms, and created a major controversy. After all, the traditionalist all wore white.

The one area where My Dad was unbending was in language. He refused to use anything but the English Language. Were Americans! He would say ...and Americans speak English. He wanted people to feel familiar with things so he applied phrases like studio and school instead of dojo. Promotion certificates became diplomas, payments were tuition. Clearly he wanted to establish His Schools as an environment of learning, and not just a gym where you work out. As an educator, My Father was moving toward the legitimization of the martial arts academic process. We are still continuing that effort today. We have knowledgeable, and physically gifted black belts, who are excellent first generation students of My Dad, we feel were headed in a positive direction.

But, more recent students have made the mistake that many had made in the past. They failed to recognize the depth of the man and his knowledge of the martial arts. Not just his personal art, but everyones art. My Dad was friendly towards everyone, traditional and non-traditional. In fact the traditionalist dominated the first few Internationals, and over the years participated in large numbers. He truly cut across all style boundaries.

Mas Oyama stayed with My Father when he toured the west coast in the fifties. And so did Bruce Lee, learning much from My Dad about different arts while the Kahuna told stories of the great Judo Gene LaBell. This is the guy Dad called The toughest man alive.

Many others either crossed his threshold as friends, or took his council. Great masters like Bong Soo Han, Sea Oh Choi, Ark Wong, Wally Jay, Tadashi Yamashita, Tiny Laifiti, and The Great Tino from Lima Lama. There was also Dan Inosanto, (an early black belt of My Dad who contributed much to Bruce Lees Jeet Kune Do and a Filipino Arts master himself) George Dillman, and Ralph Castro, the Grandmaster of Shaolin Kenpo. These, along with Lou Angel, Peter Urban, Jhoon Rhee, Aaron Banks, Hidetaka Nishiyama, Robert Trias, and many others. There are much to many to list and please dont be upset if I cant remember everyone. You see, all of these people are my extended family.

But before I get off track and too deep into history. . . some Students of My Father felt they had the bulk of the information He had to offer, split and broke away. They obviously felt they didnt need him anymore. In my opinion, some of these people took advantage of his enthusiasm for his art and virtually stole what he knew of the art and business from him and went into business for themselves. Some did very well. However, My Dad maintained a cordial relationship with all of His former Students, and always gave credit to those who deserved it. He never publicly said anything negative about anyone. But, He never forgot who His real friends were.

Most of these same people now proclaim that a black belt from My Father in the fifties or sixties is better than a more recent product. For most, the evolution of American Kenpo has left them in the primitive dust. After all, would you rather drive a Ford Model T or that new Mustang? In most cases, common sense would indicate how wrong they are. Just as wrong as a surgeon who received his medical degree in the fifties and ceased studying. They would be in no position to challenge a current resident on a surgical procedure today. Which one would you want to operate on you? It defies logic that older is better. That is an Asian Culture influence.
Something My Father rejected if it got in the way of progress. Some have chosen to traditionalize Ed Parkers Kenpo and not change anything. After all the work My Father did to make people think, when he died, most stopped thinking.

One of the unique things about Ed Parkers American Kenpo is its advocacy of the principle of TAILORING. Tailoring has allowed thousands of kenpoists throughout the world to interpret and practice His innovative system with no fear of invalidation. My Dad felt that physical principles and sound concepts of motion form your basic knowledge, and any exploration that uses these guidelines couldnt be wrong. Once again, he encouraged all of his students to study His system, its principles, and to interpret them. He encouraged students to TAILOR and create their own style. One must realize however, not to Tailor out of laziness or ease. Lack of hard work to develop a move or technique does not constitute proper tailoring which leads to effectiveness . Tailoring does allow the art to be taught, and practitioners to train at whatever level they chose to study. My Dad felt everyone should be graded on the basis of his ability, potential, and educational background. This is what accounts for the wide disparity in Kenpo practitioners skill and knowledge today.

However, to this end, Dad was like a Kenpo University that was offering many courses. They included philosophy, ethics, physics, math, music, etc. as well as The Theory of Motion course. But His University was offering only one lab. This lab course was entitled The Study Of Motion . Think about it! Knowing that American Kenpo in its most simplistic form is advanced college course work, he was trying to lay a foundation for the next level. Without the understanding of motion and a firm grasp of body mechanics, he knew this would not be possible. He was trying to get students to understand the concepts of motion. He expounded on the Universal Pattern (a doctoral thesis in itself) direction, methods, paths, dimensions, and angles. Teaching tools such as these or the study of the offensive equation formulas of prefixing, suffixing, inserting, rearranging, altering, adjusting, regulating, and deleting movements, were only stones to the gaseous states of motion.

Everything was motion, motion, and more motion. Where was he going? American Kenpo has a very distinct purpose and goal, that contained the humane ability to control the level of devastation one could deliver at any given movement. Unfortunately, he never had time to offer this course to the majority of His students.

I often get upset when I hear people say  this is how Ed Parker said this technique had to be done. Ed Parker NEVER told anyone a definitive way to perform techniques. As long as you use proper principles of motion, which produced the desired effect for the situation, it doesnt make any difference. He may have agreed with how you performed a technique, but only in principle. When asked how a technique should be done, he always said Show me how you do it. Then he would either confirm your principles, or make suggestions to get you back on track. He often asked Does this work for you? As long as the technique worked for you, and the principles were logical, it was OK! He often reminded students that techniques were only ideas. The ground breaking Technique Manuals he produced, and I slaved over, were only designed to keep people on track. They were not meant to be quoted like scriptures, mistakes and all. My father also included mistakes on purpose. He said that when you leave gaps, it encourages the avid pratitioner to use logical, practical, thinking to fill in the gaps. A large part of what my father was about was to encourage and enlighten the mind and help his students to think for themselves.

From this perspective, there is no one right way to perform American Kenpo techniques. Indeed My Dads greatest contribution was to liberate the martial arts from the age of superstition and heresy. With Mr. Parker, anything was valid if it was logical, and conformed to sound scientific physical principles.

Nevertheless, even if there are many right  ways to do KENPO or perform its techniques, serious kenpo practitioners must ask themselves whether or not their particular style might be hindering them from taking their art to new realms of proficiency. If such is the case, they do not need to discard what they already know. However, they should begin to explore principles of other levels of American Kenpo, to allow their personal interpretation of kenpo to become stronger, and more vigorous. Elements that may not be general knowledge in the Kenpo Community.

As I perform seminars throughout the country, criticism has been leveled from those who find it hard to believe such ground breaking information was inherent in American Kenpo but, for some reason my Dad didnt share it with them personally. Well ponder this. Everyone knows He used Slap-Checks in the execution of techniques. However, you will not find any reference to a Slap-Check in any of his written works, (which I edited) nor did he specifically teach the use of Slap-Checks. So ask yourself the questions: Why not? What else might he have held back? I personally watched him place the term Positional Check in many places where a Slap-Check was appropriate. When I asked him Why? he said, The times not right. I believe he would have eventually began teaching other levels when he was satisfied with the current state of his writings, and the progress of the art and his students overall.

At the beginning of Advanced Kenpo, is Phase One of five separate phases of the Advanced American Kenpo Concepts, and Sub-Level 4 aspect of the Kenpo System. I think those who seek, read, study, and apply its lessons will agree Sub-Level 4 is a powerful tool for the experienced kenpoist. This is where we start to separate the casual student from the serious practitioner. This level does have a stated purpose. To dispose of your opponent at the base destructive level of Sub-Level Four while preparing to move to higher levels of destructive potential. But, as usual, there is a catch. All you learned in Motion Kenpo about re-arranging and inserting etc., now has to give way to a pre-set and pre-determined methodology that contains sequential movements, that may not be re-arranged without prior knowledge of Destructive Sequencing.

Sub-Level 4 derives its name from the 4 distances of combat outlined in the Basic Ed Parker Kenpo System. Knowledgeable individuals will immediately recognize Distance 4 is Contact Manipulation. (Distance 1 out of range; Distance 2  within range; Distance 3  contact penetration; Distance 4 contact manipulation). Nevertheless, the skilled kenpoist can enhance his or her prowess by learning a subcategory of Distance 4 (hence the term Sub-Level 4). This lesser know and misunderstood subcategory is Control Manipulation.

It is important we draw a distinction between Basic American Kenpo and Advanced American Kenpo, Sub-Level 4. Motion kenpos primary lesson is to understand the many aspects of motion and how it can be applied within anatomical constraints. This is the reason for the emphasis on inserts, prefixes, suffixes, and elongated circles etc. Although these are good lessons, it is easy to see with the exception of learning motion, these techniques are almost pointless and draw no final conclusions with regard to Kenpos true overall stated goal of Self-Defense. Obviously even Motion Kenpo has effective self-defense aspects. Thats why it has become so popular. It works! But, this is also why the extensions do not exist in Advanced Kenpo Concepts and Sub-Level 4. They were designed to explore the possibilities of continuos motion and created primarily as a learning exercise, as well as to flesh out the Motion System. The cool thing is, they still work.

In fact, a brief examination of the Basic systems techniques yields some startling information as to the true nature and characteristics of Ed Parkers Kenpo. For example, if you count all of the pushes, attempted pushes, grabs, attempted grabs, holds, hugs and locks, along with tackles, you will find that at least two-thirds of this system involves some type of grappling defense. In addition, much can be culled from My Dads Infinite Insights Volumes. In Volume Number Three (Chapter Two, Page 4), youll find the organizational chart of the basics of Kenpo broken down into 5 basic categories. The least known of all Kenpo basics is Specialized Moves and Methods. In addition, page 174 displays the categorical breakdown of Specialized Moves Within Specialized Moves  or Advanced Sub-Level 4 Kenpo. Youll notice among these listings are joint twists, locks, throws, and others. Like it or not My Dads American Kenpo is as much a grappling system as it is a striking system. Its no wonder that the most difficult techniques for most kenpoist, are these same grappling techniques, because of the exclusion of Advanced Kenpo Concepts, and Sub-Level 4 Kenpo Principles. The category Other on the Categorical Breakdown Chart refers to Advanced Kenpo Concepts nerve strikes.

Sub-Level 4 encompasses all of these things and, is a series of finite principles working in consort with each other to produce what Dad called, The ultimate aim of the Advanced Kenpo practitioner. ....To completely dominate your opponent and to significantly control his bodily actions, over and above his control, and while doing so, have complete mastery of the level of destruction of the circumstance. Although Dad rarely spoke publicly in any detail about the use of Control Releases, Control Locks, nerve activations, or Energy Disruptions, etc. these are an integral part of the previously untaught Advanced Kenpo Concepts System. Advanced Kenpo Concepts also has the ability to integrate Cavity Presses with non-pain reliant anatomical joint manipulations for humane control of an opponent.

Although Advanced American Kenpo does not deviate from the Kenpo principle of tailoring, Important lessons learned in other phases teach destructive sequencing, and energy disruption principles. These principles must serve as a guide to proper execution, and sequence of execution of techniques. Techniques may be changed or re-arranged but, only if you have this knowledge. Also Advanced Kenpo doesnt make anyones style of Kenpo wrong. But, make no mistake, there is a tremendous difference between the many interpretations of Motion Kenpo and pure Advanced American Kenpo Concepts. Sub-Level 4 will introduce Kenpo practitioners to a level of Kenpo previously unavailable, and will enhance and invigorate their study. They will find their techniques become less abstract. They will learn that Kenpo techniques that might have seemed only marginally effective are, in fact, remarkably effective. In short, they will find that the study and mastery of Advanced American Kenpo will give credit to a self-validating system of martial arts, designed for everyday people. We who practice this level of Kenpo call it Martial Science

To reach these levels of execution, the techniques must be brought back to a specific sequential methodology. These constituent principles and concepts will ultimately allow the practitioner to transcend, into the truly Advanced Level of American Kenpo. Interestingly enough, when the self-defense techniques are executed properly, under the previously described guidelines, the nerve activations (to knowledgeable people) are quite evident. However, method of execution, timing, sequence, and circumstance play a major role in nerve and pressure point activations, and just knowing the technique is not enough. When you perform Advanced, Sub-Level 4 Kenpo, there is a specific way to execute the techniques.

If you examine pictures of My Father performing any technique that requires grabbing, youll notice the use of his finger tips to activate heart, lung, and other nerves on the associated meridians at the wrist. Most never knew He practiced nervous system disruptions, and He never explained these actions. Many struck by him during teaching demonstrations said it felt like being struck by lightening or they felt numb like from an electrical shock. Those of you familiar with his Menu of Death story where he suggests to would be antagonists they had a choice to die today, tomorrow, or next week, should think about what He was really saying. His students were overwhelmed by the power and effectiveness of his moves, but could not duplicate them. This was because they are only effective when the lessons of these other levels of Kenpo, have been properly incorporated.

Overall, Kenpo practitioners who study Advanced American Kenpo Concepts, and SUB-LEVEL 4 material will be challenged. In order to achieve Advanced Kenpo superiority, the Kenpo practitioner must master the particular sequential flow of the techniques outlined in Phase One. All of the Advanced principles can be executed within the sequential flow of the technique, or can be removed and executed singularly and independent of other movements. It literally allows many more options within the technique sequence, and moves the practitioner from Contact Manipulation to the level of Advanced Sub-Level 4.

Unlike others, I was with Ed Parker all my life, and my instructor, was fortunate to have continuously studied under my Dad from the 60s to his most untimely death in 1990. This in itself gives us a rather unique perspective. Although many of My Dads black belts maintained loose associations with him over this time period, to my knowledge none studied diligently and continuously, particularly after being awarded significant rank. Being a credential educator, My Dad knew the value of continuous education and tried to make others realize American Kenpos necessity for evolution and change. What was taught in the fifties rolled over to the sixties, which evolved to the seventies, and gave way to the eighties. We are passing thru the nineties enroute to the millennium. Where is your Kenpo?

I hope this will help you to see and understand how much more directed and dynamic your execution can be. The destructive level of your techniques can be within your control, and your techniques can have a theme, a sense of purpose and direction. You have, Im sure, also found how difficult it is to learn what must be felt from writings and pictures of Advanced American Kenpo Concepts, and Sub-Level Four. This is the true application of My Fathers ...to feel, is to believe. saying.

*Written by: Ed Parker Jr. & Ron Chapel*

I was in a sequence of photographs in this three part article. The photos that included me were of Ed Parker Jr. doing Checking the Storm on me. I was attacking him with a tonfa, if I remember correctly.

:asian:


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## TwistofFat

Thanks Bill - this is a great summation from Mr. Parker (Jr).

I share similar experiences with many others in Kenpo. In 10+ years of Kenpo and earning a BB from some solid EPAK BB's, I am dissatisfied with my level of effectiveness in live training and real life combat. I am comfortable in my ability to stop a series of punches from the local drunk and have been forced to use Motion Kenpo when all else failed - but it is clear to me that I can be "More/Most Effective" and am fascinated by what Doc Chapel and Ed Parker Jr describe in the article posted above.



How can those of scattered to the four corners learn Sub-Level Four? (Doc Chapel - NC is a great place to live!).



Are there other Seniors that have discovered and mastered Control Manipulation through years and years of Scar tissue? I can only compare it to working with an EPAK instructor that is exceptional (to feel is to believe)  is this experience and growth similar? 



Is it possible for those of us who make our living outside of the Martial Arts to achieve this level of effectiveness? Is it necessary or does the BA/MA/PhD analogy apply (i.e., I can do this job well with my C+ BA?)/



My 'version' of Kenpo is based upon those men who have taught me and my memory banks could hold (My original EPAK instructor felt no one could take him to the ground and fired me as a student when I applied my limited JJJ to accomplish that feat). I have x-trained in other systems but know EPAK has SO much more to offer.

I am looking forward to the commentary on the article. Regards - Glenn.


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## pete

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> As long as the technique worked for you, and the principles were logical, it was OK! He often reminded students that techniques were only ideas. The ground breaking Technique Manuals he produced, and I slaved over, were only designed to keep people on track. They were not meant to be quoted like scriptures, mistakes and all. My father also included mistakes on purpose. He said that when you leave gaps, it encourages the avid pratitioner to use logical, practical, thinking to fill in the gaps. A large part of what my father was about was to encourage and enlighten the mind and help his students to think for themselves.
> 
> Written by: Ed Parker Jr. & Ron Chapel



first off, thanks to Bill for posting this article.

next i'd like to prompt discussion on the paragraph above... while i've heard and accept the statement that the techniques are "ideas", the idea that the system is riddled with "mistakes" is a little disturbing.  

sure there are things, many at my level, that i have trouble executing or understanding the purpose... but have come to hold that to (1) my level of training, (2) my instructor's level of training and ability to teach, and (3) combination of the two.

i guess it depends on how "mistakes" are defined.  a previous thread with Doc (Q&A) discussed an explanation for the 'in-place switch' at the end of Escape from the Storm as a teaching tool for multiple situations.  Is this a "mistake" or just a level of understanding within the system?

Does anyone think that there are "mistakes" in the system that should never be done, contradict the principles of kenpo, or are just plain dangerous to use in any situation?  

pete.


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## Doc

TwistofFat said:
			
		

> Thanks Bill - this is a great summation from Mr. Parker (Jr).
> 
> I share similar experiences with many others in Kenpo. In 10+ years of Kenpo and earning a BB from some solid EPAK BB's, I am dissatisfied with my level of effectiveness in live training and real life combat. I am comfortable in my ability to stop a series of punches from the local drunk and have been forced to use Motion Kenpo when all else failed - but it is clear to me that I can be "More/Most Effective" and am fascinated by what Doc Chapel and Ed Parker Jr describe in the article posted above.
> 
> How can those of scattered to the four corners learn Sub-Level Four? (Doc Chapel - NC is a great place to live!).


SubLevel Four requires a teaching credential to be an instructor. This is over and above simply learning and working the curriculum. The majority of my students are professionals in their careers, or are advanced degree college students, and have no desire to re-locate or miss their own on going classes at every level.


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## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> first off, thanks to Bill for posting this article.
> 
> next i'd like to prompt discussion on the paragraph above... while i've heard and accept the statement that the techniques are "ideas", the idea that the system is riddled with "mistakes" is a little disturbing.
> 
> i guess it depends on how "mistakes" are defined.  a previous thread with Doc (Q&A) discussed an explanation for the 'in-place switch' at the end of Escape from the Storm as a teaching tool for multiple situations.  Is this a "mistake" or just a level of understanding within the system?
> 
> Does anyone think that there are "mistakes" in the system that should never be done, contradict the principles of kenpo, or are just plain dangerous to use in any situation?



I have often heard Ed Parker Jr. state that his Father placed "mistakes" in the system purposely. Ed Parker Jr. was speaking of the "motion" based commercial system. I disagree with this perspective. Knowing Ed Parker Sr. as I did, I knew him to be a perfectionist and I never heard him at any time allude to purposeful mistakes.

Yes there are mistakes. Typos, mis-stated directions, poorly conceieved technique ideas that are not functional, and generalities that were ill conceived by contributing parties. Porposeful mistakes? Not a chance in my opinion.


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