# Wheres the shaolin in USSD's shaolin kempo



## shaolin ninja 4

Wheres the shaolin in USSD's shaolin kempo?
I know charles mattera and the other masters goto the shaolin temple every few years but they dont teach those shaolin forms in their schools.
We learn japanese pinions and katas(not shaolin forms)And these shaolin defensive maneuvers are really villari kempo combinations.
So how can these master's claim their art is shaolin?


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## DavidCC

try the search function!

Also there is a thread on Martial Arts Planet with the EXACT same title.

as a student of "Shaolin kempo" IMHO the answer is...

in the marketing.

-DC


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## John Bishop

It's sort of like where's the grapes in "grape nuts".


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## HKphooey

John Bishop said:


> It's sort of like where's the grapes in "grape nuts".


 

Lol!


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## DavidCC

John Bishop said:


> It's sort of like where's the grapes in "grape nuts".


 
ROFL!!!!  or the apples in apple jacks.  IT'S CINNAMON


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## Monadnock

Maybe it is just the Shaolin philosophies and wisdom. After all, they visited the temples, became ambassadors, yadda yadda yadda...


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## exile

It's the usual problem in the MAs, isn't it? Use a revered ancient name and gain `instant lineage'---but without a time machine, how can anyone know _what_ the Shaolin monks were doing in their glory days x-hundred years back?


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## marlon

i do not know about ussd however in the shaolin kempo i study the shaolin part refers mainly to the use of varying fightings styles as taught through the concepts of the five animals.  This is a prevalant chinese martial arts concept and since most feel that chinese martial arts had something to do with  shaolin the descriptive term is used.  I am sure in does not hurt business either to have a more exotic sounding name.  

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Danjo

marlon said:


> i do not know about ussd however in the shaolin kempo i study the shaolin part refers mainly to the use of varying fightings styles as taught through the concepts of the five animals. This is a prevalant chinese martial arts concept and since most feel that chinese martial arts had something to do with shaolin the descriptive term is used. I am sure in does not hurt business either to have a more exotic sounding name.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Nah. It came from the idea that it was one of the earlier names used by Professor Chow for his art. Since Ralph Castro already called his own version "Shaolin KeNpo" Villari, seeing the popularity of the David Carradine show, called his "Shaolin KeMpo". If David Carradin's character had come from the Wu Tang clan, I'm sure Villari's art would have been called "Wu Tang Kempo Karate".


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## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> "Wu Tang Kempo Karate".


 
I wonder if I can get a copyright on this name before someone else takes it...


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## Danjo

Flying Crane said:


> I wonder if I can get a copyright on this name before someone else takes it...


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## dianhsuhe

Danjo hit it!   Although it probably was referring to both the Shaolin Temple and Professor Chow's early style name.

Amazing how many Martial Artists attempt to connect to Professor Chow in any way possible... No matter how thin the link-

I thought the system I was studying many years ago came from the Professor, it even said so in the student manual!  Turns out the link was paper thin....


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## exile

Danjo said:


> If David Carradin's character had come from the Wu Tang clan, I'm sure Villari's art would have been called "Wu Tang Kempo Karate".



I had missed this post---D., that's hysterical!


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## SFC JeffJ

Something similar.  About 8 or so months ago, I went to check out a school that taught "Chinese Kenpo".  The odd thing was they used several Okinawan forms in thier system.  I even did a couple I knew durring my introductory class (Tensho, which they just wanted to see, and Nihanchi, which was part of their system).  That kinda threw me for a loop.

Jeff


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## BlackCatBonz

Imagine if the shaolin temple sued everyone that used their name without a worldwide licence?

I'm kinda fond of the name:
"Canadian Chinese Native American Japanese Shaolin-Shorin-ji Kempo-Karate Jujutsu-Boxing Alliance Federation of the Universe"


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## SFC JeffJ

BlackCatBonz said:


> Imagine if the shaolin temple sued everyone that used their name without a worldwide licence?
> 
> I'm kinda fond of the name:
> "Canadian Chinese Native American Japanese Shaolin-Shorin-ji Kempo-Karate Jujutsu-Boxing Alliance Federation of the Universe"


ROLF!!!!!


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## exile

BlackCatBonz said:


> Imagine if the shaolin temple sued everyone that used their name without a worldwide licence?
> 
> I'm kinda fond of the name:
> "Canadian Chinese Native American Japanese Shaolin-Shorin-ji Kempo-Karate Jujutsu-Boxing Alliance Federation of the Universe"



Uh-uh---you need to get `Brazilian' in there somewhere! :wink!:


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## marlon

Interesting



Danjo said:


> Nah. It came from the idea that it was one of the earlier names used by Professor Chow for his art. Since Ralph Castro already called his own version "Shaolin KeNpo" Villari, seeing the popularity of the David Carradine show, called his "Shaolin KeMpo". If David Carradin's character had come from the Wu Tang clan, I'm sure Villari's art would have been called "Wu Tang Kempo Karate".


 

I am sure as a marketing tool the use of the name shaolin helped attract people to the dojo and to the martial arts in general.  This would be good for everyone.  Aside from an opportunity to bash Villari, i thought the question about the animal techniques could have some discussion about what using animal / shaolin concepts of fighting might bring to a martial artist or a situation.  While it is true that having learned a few kung fu animal forms i note that what sk does is different yet there may be a legitimate concept to be explored, rather than settling for the banal and very much over done.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## RevIV

marlon said:


> Interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure as a marketing tool the use of the name shaolin helped attract people to the dojo and to the martial arts in general. This would be good for everyone. Aside from an opportunity to bash Villari, i thought the question about the animal techniques could have some discussion about what using animal / shaolin concepts of fighting might bring to a martial artist or a situation. While it is true that having learned a few kung fu animal forms i note that what sk does is different yet there may be a legitimate concept to be explored, rather than settling for the banal and very much over done.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 

Marlon,
Out of all the posts i have read of yours.  this is definetly the best.  
In Peace
Jesse


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## Hand Sword

I would say that it is based on the principles taught. The material may not be "shaolin" stuff, but, the influence is there, laterin the belt ranks. Karate is used in the beginning to build a solid foundation, the "shaolin" stuff comes later in the Brown to BB levels. If you study the stuff or really look at it, 180 degree difference from what was learned up to that point for the student.


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## shaolin ninja 4

Hand Sword said:


> I would say that it is based on the principles taught. The material may not be "shaolin" stuff, but, the influence is there, laterin the belt ranks. Karate is used in the beginning to build a solid foundation, the "shaolin" stuff comes later in the Brown to BB levels. If you study the stuff or really look at it, 180 degree difference from what was learned up to that point for the student.


 
What exactly after brown or black is SHAOLIN? None of the forums are shaolin.Sho Tun Kwok, Nengli South, Nengli North, Swift Tigers, Invincible Wall and Five Dragons Face the Four Winds,Branches of the Falling Pine, Lost Leopard, Tai Sing Mon, 1000 Buddhas and Snake. Villari made those up.
So how can you call it shaolin?  I dont like being lied to and my certific of rank is a bunch of ****


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## Drac

Actually it's a 2 secret rarely mentioned Shaolin forms call Iga-Chew-Loot and Afoo-Anhis-Monee-Parted...


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## BlackCatBonz

Drac said:


> Actually it's a 2 secret rarely mentioned Shaolin forms call Iga-Chew-Loot and Afoo-Anhis-Monee-Parted...


 
now thats comedy!!!


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## eyebeams

I can think of plenty of arts that have done the same. Shorinryu and Shorinji Kempo have nothing to do with shaolinquan. Plus, lots of Chinese systems that are called shaolin branches probably weren't, either.


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## youngbraveheart

BlackCatBonz said:


> I'm kinda fond of the name:
> "Canadian Chinese Native American Japanese Shaolin-Shorin-ji Kempo-Karate Jujutsu-Boxing Alliance Federation of the Universe"


 
That'd be the longest banner in martial arts history Shawn! LOL


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## Hand Sword

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> What exactly after brown or black is SHAOLIN? None of the forums are shaolin.Sho Tun Kwok, Nengli South, Nengli North, Swift Tigers, Invincible Wall and Five Dragons Face the Four Winds,Branches of the Falling Pine, Lost Leopard, Tai Sing Mon, 1000 Buddhas and Snake. Villari made those up.
> So how can you call it shaolin? I dont like being lied to and my certific of rank is a bunch of ****


 

I said that the forms themselves were not Shaolin forms in my post. However, if you watch and know Kung Fu and Karate movements, you'll see differences between them. Karate is focussed on in the beginning to green or so. Slowly, the "kung fu principles" are given to you, more so after Black Belt. I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm not a representative for them. However, my view is if you put in the work, from any style, there's no waste of time. It's about experience, not rank, or certificates.


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## Mariachi Joe

USSD calls there style Shaolin Kempo because Charlie Mattera was a student of Fred Villari before breaking off.  Fred Villari's style is called Shaolin Kempo Karate.  Hope that helps.


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## BlackCatBonz

eyebeams said:


> I can think of plenty of arts that have done the same. Shorinryu and Shorinji Kempo have nothing to do with shaolinquan. Plus, lots of Chinese systems that are called shaolin branches probably weren't, either.


 

I would say Shorin ryu has more in common with anything chinese than shaolin kempo.
Note that i said chinese though.....and not shaolin specifically.

visiting the shaolin temple and watching people do kung fu and collecting an honourary master certificate doesnt mean squat. 
but some jokers come back waving it around all the while teaching some lame 5 animal BS or drunken panda wrestling.


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## shaolin ninja 4

BlackCatBonz said:


> I would say Shorin ryu has more in common with anything chinese than shaolin kempo.
> Note that i said chinese though.....and not shaolin specifically.
> 
> visiting the shaolin temple and watching people do kung fu and collecting an honourary master certificate doesnt mean squat.
> but some jokers come back waving it around all the while teaching some lame 5 animal BS or drunken panda wrestling.


 
I hear ya. I dont know why the shaolin temple gave them rank when they dont even teach shaolin? It must be the all mighty $$$$$$$ that got them rank. 

 I asked my manager with ussd one day what style of shaolin(northern or southern) we taught because someone had walked in and asked me and I didn't know,my manager told me traditional. 

A few months later I looked up on the internet where ussd came from because my manager with ussd took away my bonus check and wouldn't pay my doctor bill from an injury I sustain from a workout with him. No workmans comp,nothing. He just made up some excuse that the company needs to grow and we had to keep the company going. Real nice.

I remembered that one of my coworkers said we came from villaris. So I looked up on the net and found out we were teaching kempo not shaolin. 
I was so disgusted with ussd at that point because I had been lied to about what we had been teaching and are REAL linage and how I'd been scamed IMHO to make a bunch of fat guys fatter.

I am done with my rant now.


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## almost a ghost

Asking where the shaolin in the Shaolin Kempo is like asking where the lemons are in Country Time lemonade, but when you flip over the packet and read the ingredients you realise that it's just a bunch of stuff made to resemble something it isn't.


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## Danjo

almost a ghost said:


> Asking where the shaolin in the Shaolin Kempo is like asking where the lemons are in Country Time lemonade, but when you flip over the packet and read the ingredients you realise that it's just a bunch of stuff made to resemble something it isn't.


 
Abraham Lincoln used to ask people this question, "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When they would answer "Five" he would give them a scathing look and reply, "Four! Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg!"


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## BlackCatBonz

Danjo......that is dang funny.
quit making me laugh.


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## John Bishop

Danjo said:


> Abraham Lincoln used to ask people this question, "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When they would answer "Five" he would give them a scathing look and reply, "Four! Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg!"



There sure seems to be a whole lot of tails being called legs in the martial arts.


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## BlackCatBonz

John Bishop said:


> There sure seems to be a whole lot of tails being called legs in the martial arts.


 
thats just the start of it, too!!


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## Hand Sword

Yep! Not to mention all of the Prosthetic legs out there too.


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## shaolin ninja 4

almost a ghost said:


> Asking where the shaolin in the Shaolin Kempo is like asking where the lemons are in Country Time lemonade, but when you flip over the packet and read the ingredients you realise that it's just a bunch of stuff made to resemble something it isn't.



HAHA!   Thats funny!


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## Hand Sword

Still tastes good though!


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## dianhsuhe

Tastes good compared to rubbing alcohol maybe, but horrible next to REAL lemonade.


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## Hand Sword

lemonade is lemonade. Blocking, punching and kicking is the same for all styles ultimately. a Shaolin front kick to the groin is no different , or more real, than anyone elses. You don't have to be a monk to teach the martial arts. It's just a name.

Let me say again, I'm not a student od ussd, never have been. I know they are a McDojo. However, we should all realize that McDojo refers to the business end of things. The material taught there is the same material taught in all the striking arts. I'm just trying to focus everyone's attention to the idea that we are all legitimate. Blood, sweat and tears, has no patent to one style or system.


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## dianhsuhe

_"The material taught there is the same material taught in all the striking arts. I'm just trying to focus everyone's attention to the idea that we are all legitimate. Blood, sweat and tears, has no patent to one style or system."_

*Hand Sword*-   Same material?  You have got to be kidding me...There are ENTIRE systems that come from the same person that are almost indistinguishable.  Let alone having "all striking arts" use the same material.

Blocking, kicking, and punching is all the same you say? That is just silly.

We are all legitimate?  Read the Horror Stories and check back with us.

Your post is one of the least accurate I have seen in awhile-


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## Hand Sword

The horror stories are about the Business practices, and that which is connected to it. It has nothing to do with the individual's time spent through the years training and earning some rank (most to at least BB level), before they get to that level.

True there are entire systems but all they are is the founder's way of combining the basics. Nothing silly about it. A horse stance is present in the American systems, Japanese systems, Chinese systems, etc.. Front punches, Front kicks, side kicks Etc.. Yep! All there too! So, How is it silly? We train (have trained) in different systems, are you telling me that Your fron ball kick to the groin is vastly different from mine?, a Karateka? etc..? How about a palm heel to the nose for everyone, all different moves?

As for legitimacy, let's stop this before it turns into a more ridiculous thread than it's becoming. Legitimacy is a popularity contest, and based on one's opinions. They vary on all sides of the argument. In all honesty, All of our systems in this forum, and it's founders could be and have been questioned as well. We could go on and on about it, but, it ridiculous, and a waste of time. We all, even the "bad apples of business" at one time took up the arts out of love for it (which is what fuels the passion of these arguments). There was no politics, especially in the "same family". IMHO if anyone puts in the work, they are just as legitimate as any of us are, and were when we started out.


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> Marlon,
> Out of all the posts i have read of yours. this is definetly the best.
> In Peace
> Jesse


 

Thanks Jesse...i think...

However, what i said seems to have been lost on most of the discussion

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## almost a ghost

Hand Sword, while the system still maybe effective in the end, it doesn't make it OK to call a system Shaolin when no direct lineage can be pointed out. To call the system Shaolin because it can be eventually traced back to the Shaolin temple is an over simplification of the time line, and by the same merit I can all Tang Soo Do a Shaolin system. Is the statement true? To a certain degree it is, but does it make it right to do so? No. (I'm not even going to get into Villari's "story" how how and where he learned Kung Fu.)

Who does this affect? It probably won't affect the guy walking into a certain chain of studios looking for a hobby or just looking for self defense training. To them apples and oranges are both fruit in the end. This will affect the person walking into the same schools wanting to learn a style of Shaolin Kung fu and being told what they have is shaolin kung fu. 

Also, to say a Kempo front ball kick to the groin is no different than one from a TKD, Shaolin, thai, and etc is true. The difference is what you did before the kick and what you did after the kick is what differs one style from another. Believe it or not, there are people out there willing to drive an hour to class and pay more per month to for a particular style.


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## dianhsuhe

Handsword-  I think you missed my point(s).  maybe we should agree to disagree... I have read many of your posts and know you are a sharp poster- maybe on this we are just polar opposites--No biggy!

 I get ramped up reading the USSD threads........because>>

 I came from USSD, a style that advertised one thing and taught something completely different.  (Not even the Shaolin part, I am talking the kempo part) I was sold a bill of goods, literally!  I admit that I have a bone to pick with USSD... They hassled my instructor when he said he was leaving that system, like others have stated, and I just could not believe what I saw. I mean, this was the martial Arts, where character is forged!  Where honor, courtesy, and respect are taught!  Nope...Just the opposite- Thank goodness I left with my instructor and we found the real-deal.  PLEASE DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE LINEAGE "ISSUES" I have with them.

 Back to your post:  Saying that all material taught at different schools is the same as all striking arts because most seem to have a palm-heel or horse stance, is painting with a BROAD BRUSH!

 This is similar to saying that all meat is the same, since it shares a basic "origin", burger vs steak, vs ribeye etc. Yet we all know the VAST difference in appearance, taste, quality, etc. Oh, and all music is the same if it shares traits like "singing" or "a drum-set"?  NOPE

What does it matter if  my car mechanic is good or legitimate?  maybe he works on Bull-Dozers but he is just fine popping the hood of my BMW- I mean, the basics are the same right?  Besides, he has been doing it for a LONG time, blood sweat and tears...LOL 

 Legitimacy is a popularity contest you say?  WOW... I suppose..to some degree...that may be true, but when 9 out of 10 folks recommend "running away from USSD" as fast as possible...That sure screams out ILLEGITIMATE! to me... When someone comes on these boards asking for a good school or style,  these things DO MATTER.  Would you have them believe that all styles are the same?  Would you tell them to just find a school where the main guy has trained a long time?

Just because someone has trained hard for a long time it does not mean they are legitimate.  It only means they have trained hard for a long time- there needs to be a distinction.  Think Better Business Bureau, that might help...

I dunno Handsword, I think the martial arts have more VARIETY than virtually anything else in the world-  The Material is NOT THE SAME, and in the end, that is quite possibly a good-thing.

Have a great weekend!
james
"Practice DOES NOT make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".


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## RevIV

Is there real Shaolin in Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo?  This is a legit question, I come from the Villari lineage and I always hear people busting on the name "Shaolin".  But no one ever says anything about GM Castro's system.  So i want to know are most of these just bones to pic or is there shaolin in GM Castro's system?
In Peace
Jesse


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## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> Hand Sword, while the system still maybe effective in the end, it doesn't make it OK to call a system Shaolin when no direct lineage can be pointed out. To call the system Shaolin because it can be eventually traced back to the Shaolin temple is an over simplification of the time line, and by the same merit I can all Tang Soo Do a Shaolin system. Is the statement true? To a certain degree it is, but does it make it right to do so? No. (I'm not even going to get into Villari's "story" how how and where he learned Kung Fu.)
> 
> Who does this affect? It probably won't affect the guy walking into a certain chain of studios looking for a hobby or just looking for self defense training. To them apples and oranges are both fruit in the end. This will affect the person walking into the same schools wanting to learn a style of Shaolin Kung fu and being told what they have is shaolin kung fu.
> 
> Also, to say a Kempo front ball kick to the groin is no different than one from a TKD, Shaolin, thai, and etc is true. The difference is what you did before the kick and what you did after the kick is what differs one style from another. Believe it or not, there are people out there willing to drive an hour to class and pay more per month to for a particular style.


 

You're right about the Marketing thing. I never said that it was O.K. to call it Shaolin when it was not a direct link, perhaps you misunderstood me? All I did was give an answer to the question of the post, based on answers from my talks with the Shaolin Kempo seniors in the past. Just trying to help out, sorry. As a side note here on MT, we've all agreed in the past, that if you're a founder of something, it's your right to name it what you want. The SKK people and their descendants did just that, as did all the rest of the American Pioneers.

As for what goes on before and after a technique, you're right, differences exist. Again, I never said anywhere or anytime that they didn't. I was trying to focus everyone's attention To the commonalities we have, instead of the differences. Honestly, to that point what we all do before or after the techniques, really doesn't matter, and can't be judged. No one is qualified to say that "my ways" are the correct. Besides, that conversation was not what was asked here, it evolved into it. It was becoming my dad can beat yours, mudslinging (deservedly so) over the business end of people, and the bashing of a style. I'm tired of all the fighting, especially when it becomes so juvenile, so I was trying to stop it. All of our styles founders in these forums, and their ways can be scrutinized.


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## Hand Sword

dianhsuhe said:


> Handsword- I think you missed my point(s). maybe we should agree to disagree... I have read many of your posts and know you are a sharp poster- maybe on this we are just polar opposites--No biggy!
> 
> I get ramped up reading the USSD threads........because>>
> 
> I came from USSD, a style that advertised one thing and taught something completely different. (Not even the Shaolin part, I am talking the kempo part) I was sold a bill of goods, literally! I admit that I have a bone to pick with USSD... They hassled my instructor when he said he was leaving that system, like others have stated, and I just could not believe what I saw. I mean, this was the martial Arts, where character is forged! Where honor, courtesy, and respect are taught! Nope...Just the opposite- Thank goodness I left with my instructor and we found the real-deal. PLEASE DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE LINEAGE "ISSUES" I have with them.
> 
> Back to your post: Saying that all material taught at different schools is the same as all striking arts because most seem to have a palm-heel or horse stance, is painting with a BROAD BRUSH!
> 
> This is similar to saying that all meat is the same, since it shares a basic "origin", burger vs steak, vs ribeye etc. Yet we all know the VAST difference in appearance, taste, quality, etc. Oh, and all music is the same if it shares traits like "singing" or "a drum-set"? NOPE
> 
> What does it matter if my car mechanic is good or legitimate? maybe he works on Bull-Dozers but he is just fine popping the hood of my BMW- I mean, the basics are the same right? Besides, he has been doing it for a LONG time, blood sweat and tears...LOL
> 
> Legitimacy is a popularity contest you say? WOW... I suppose..to some degree...that may be true, but when 9 out of 10 folks recommend "running away from USSD" as fast as possible...That sure screams out ILLEGITIMATE! to me... When someone comes on these boards asking for a good school or style, these things DO MATTER. Would you have them believe that all styles are the same? Would you tell them to just find a school where the main guy has trained a long time?
> 
> Just because someone has trained hard for a long time it does not mean they are legitimate. It only means they have trained hard for a long time- there needs to be a distinction. Think Better Business Bureau, that might help...
> 
> I dunno Handsword, I think the martial arts have more VARIETY than virtually anything else in the world- The Material is NOT THE SAME, and in the end, that is quite possibly a good-thing.
> 
> Have a great weekend!
> james
> "Practice DOES NOT make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".


 

I didn't miss your points, really. I understand what you are saying and AGREE with that part. Their business practices are shoddy and yes, you should stay away from them. Again though, it's about their business practices, not about the art that is taught. Besides, all of the american founders, as has been pointed out, were questioned as well, in the past. I was just trying to steer the conversation away from the mudslinging that was beginning. It's always the people, not the ART, even in this kind of argument. I just answered the post's original question. 

As for the broad brush, Hey, We all paint with what we like. Besides I worked with many different arts and artists over the years, and you know what? Our final pictures were the same, as well as the common strategies that we used to get there. That's all I was trying to point out. Trying to help us all evolve past the "my style is THE way" argument, that has splintered us all, in one way or another, even in the same families. 

Would I say the styles are the same? No, never said that I would. However, I would point out that none is better or more legit than any other. They are all legit, it's the People (and how they promote a style)that are or aren't.  

The basics are the basics, we all do them. We might stroke differently, before and after, but we still use the same colors and brushes (wrenches and tools for your mechanic argument).

You have a good one too.


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## Hand Sword

RevIV said:


> Is there real Shaolin in Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo? This is a legit question, I come from the Villari lineage and I always hear people busting on the name "Shaolin". But no one ever says anything about GM Castro's system. So i want to know are most of these just bones to pic or is there shaolin in GM Castro's system?
> In Peace
> Jesse


 

Exactly what I was saying about the popularity contest. At one point in time, in the martial art world, Bruce Lee was a young punk, and no master etc.. What changed? people and culture of the MA world. What happened? He is now a God! Chow? Learned from dreams? An uneducated thug? Now? The "man" ! Same with Villari and USSD (his ex students), definitely a stigma attached to them, that has always kept that side on the fringe of the Kem/npo community. Whats it based on? Past BUSINESS dealings of PEOPLE. That, in all honesty, is what the core of these arguments and their furor comes from. As for the art, No questioning Nick Cerio, George Pesare, Gascon when they are doing essentially the same thing. It's Legit then. Same with Kajukenbo, from which SKK came from. But even they were not so at one time, fro the MA world. Just a bunch of Black Belts (in their eyes) Who eventually made themselves "Gand Masters", and Created their ways and named them what they wanted. (Just like every other founder of every other "way" that's ever been)

It's a popularity contest, based on the view of those that are the "Players" of that moment in time. Same now as then, and will be in the future.


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## dianhsuhe

DEFINITELY agree to disagree then...

I have never heard Professor Chow being referred to as a "thug", and he did not learn Kung-Fu from "dreams".


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## Hand Sword

Exactly my point! That story has been around for awhile. Also, coming up as a streetfighter, and killing people in fights, I'm sure makes him an angel. Also, when he intimidated people, referring to testing them out, made him one too. My point was to this whole illegitimacy thing. It could go against any of the founders. The questions about ALL of them, back then, was there!

Funny, how, from that post, that was all you pulled out, Ignoring the rest of the argument about the other founders. I think your Bias to that sytem, and your personal hatred of the USSD organization  is clouding your judgement, forcing an argument, when I said we AGREED on your point.

I'll say it again, to clarify for you. None of the American/Hawaiin sytems have a solid history when it comes to being legit. They were questioned, and still are so, even amongst themselves. Exactly why I said this kind of argument --to legitimacy- is stupid, and should be avoided. None have clean hands on this issue, that you were arguing.


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## Jonathan Randall

Hand Sword said:


> Exactly my point! That story has been around for awhile. Also, coming up as a streetfighter, and killing people in fights, I'm sure makes him an angel. Also, when he intimidated people, referring to testing them out, made him one too. My point was to this whole illegitimacy thing. It could go against any of the founders. The questions about ALL of them, back then, was there!
> 
> Funny, how, from that post, that was all you pulled out, Ignoring the rest of the argument about the other founders. I thing your Bias to that sytem, and your personal hatred of the USSD organization is clouding your judgement, forcing an argument, when I said we AGREED on your point.
> 
> I'll say it again, to clarify for you. None of the American/Hawaiin sytems have a solid history when it comes to being legit. They were questioned, and still are so, even amongst themselves. Exactly why I said this kind of argument --to legitimacy- is stupid, and should be avoided. None have clean hands on this issue, that you were arguing.


 
Great points! I agree totally with your post.

Ok, they are not some folks' choice of a school they would go to or send their kids to (I'm in that crowd of probably not recommending USSD to friends or family), but they have every right to teach MA and charge what they wish - as posters here have every right NOT to study there or recommend them. These constant attacks against them seem absolutely pointless.


----------



## dianhsuhe

It was not my intention to have such a short post- My wife offered to give me a haircut so I cut that post short...I did not ignore anything- Don't get all snooty with me because I do not have time to respond to EVERY portion in your post.

The only point I have really tried to make is that different martial arts teach different material, right down to the basics even-  Yes I prefer my system and yes I really do not like USSD- Is that a bad thing?

I am not arguing, just offering info. based on my experiences--- I fail to see how villifying Professor Chow will shed light on your contention that all arts teach the same material and that all martial artists are legit because they have trained for a long time...

I am sorry my inbox was full, you apparently tried sending me a message- I cleared it out in case you wanna send anything.

No hard feelings Handsword, I am sorry that I got defensive- I DO have to work on that...

james


----------



## Hand Sword

dianhsuhe said:


> It was not my intention to have such a short post- My wife offered to give me a haircut so I cut that post short...I did not ignore anything- Don't get all snooty with me because I do not have time to respond to EVERY portion in your post.
> 
> The only point I have really tried to make is that different martial arts teach different material, right down to the basics even- Yes I prefer my system and yes I really do not like USSD- Is that a bad thing?
> 
> I am not arguing, just offering info. based on my experiences--- I fail to see how villifying Professor Chow will shed light on your contention that all arts teach the same material and that all martial artists are legit because they have trained for a long time...
> 
> I am sorry my inbox was full, you apparently tried sending me a message- I cleared it out in case you wanna send anything.
> 
> No hard feelings Handsword, I am sorry that I got defensive- I DO have to work on that...
> 
> james


 

First, You're lucky, and a hell of a lot cheaper for ya! I cut mine too.

next, nothing snooty, trust me on that (not my style). Just seemed strange from a whole point, you just pulled out that. In all honesty you know the stuff out there, and in here, about Professor Chow. I respect him tremendously, having the same mind set. I was trying to show how the "legitimate" argument could be, and has been applied to all of our founders and styles. I did this because the post went toward Shaolin Kempo Karate as a Style was "illegitimate". This was beiong linked to the People of the USSD organization, and their crappy representation of the style. Also, no it's not a bad thing that you don't like them, never said that it was, and I Agreed with your view of that, sharing it myself.

I just didn't want the business practices of PEOPLE to be the embodiement of a STYLE. 2 different things. For all those illegitimate businesses there are legitimate practitioners of that style. Which, by the way, before becoming businessman, were practitoners, themselves. That's why I said we are all legit, artists. I know of some of them, as all of our founders, and they could "represent" if attacked. As for the length of time of practice, I guess we disagree. I would never slight anyone who puts in the time and sweat, especially, showing dedication, doing it for a long time. I would call them legit practitoners, as we all are, or were at one time.

As for the basics thing, if you really believe in the differences of horse stances, kicks, and strikes, common throughout the arts, nothing I can do about that. No hard feelings at all.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I have to admit that even though I'm with ussd I would not recommend it to my family or friends because I think $200/month is just too much to ask, especially when the local competion does not even charge half that.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> I have to admit that even though I'm with ussd I would not recommend it to my family or friends because I think $200/month is just too much to ask, especially when the local competion does not even charge half that.


 
$200 a month!!!!! How do USSD guys stay in business ?  No family in there right mind would sign up for that!
They must be losing instrutors every month.


----------



## Hand Sword

That is a very high tuition. I wonder if it's for that school particularly, or, if that is the price for all.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

almost a ghost said:


> Hand Sword, while the system still maybe effective in the end, it doesn't make it OK to call a system Shaolin when no direct lineage can be pointed out. To call the system Shaolin because it can be eventually traced back to the Shaolin temple is an over simplification of the time line, and by the same merit I can all Tang Soo Do a Shaolin system. Is the statement true? To a certain degree it is, but does it make it right to do so? No. (I'm not even going to get into Villari's "story" how how and where he learned Kung Fu.)
> 
> Who does this affect? It probably won't affect the guy walking into a certain chain of studios looking for a hobby or just looking for self defense training. To them apples and oranges are both fruit in the end. This will affect the person walking into the same schools wanting to learn a style of Shaolin Kung fu and being told what they have is shaolin kung fu.
> 
> Also, to say a Kempo front ball kick to the groin is no different than one from a TKD, Shaolin, thai, and etc is true. The difference is what you did before the kick and what you did after the kick is what differs one style from another. Believe it or not, there are people out there willing to drive an hour to class and pay more per month to for a particular style.


 

I agree they shouldn't be allowed to call it shaolin.


----------



## Hand Sword

I think if someone founds a style, They can call it what they want. No one else has to like it, it may be right or wrong, but, it's their right to do so.

I also believe that this has been debated to death anyway.


----------



## almost a ghost

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> $200 a month!!!!! How do USSD guys stay in business ?  No family in there right mind would sign up for that!
> They must be losing instrutors every month.



Quite the contrary. You'd be surprised what most people would bite at when it comes to marketing and presentation. It falls under "You get what you pay for", by tricking people into thinking "Wow, if these guys can charge $200, they must be worth it" and to a person not familiar with other schools, it does seem that good. It's creating a demand without actually having a demand, which ironically enough rolls into an actual demand. To the person who is signing up, at a very basic level, it has all the bells and whistles that they are looking for, and that's fine by them. Fortunately there are people waking up from that stupor, but once they do there's another grinning idiot (Yes, I was an idiot too) with $200 a month in direct with drawls waiting to sign up.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

As far as I know all the ussd dojo's in Utah charge around $200/month, but they do offer discounts for families.  I don't pay $200/month.


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## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> As far as I know all the ussd dojo's in Utah charge around $200/month, but they do offer discounts for families. I don't pay $200/month.


 
Hey Joe,
How many black belt are there in Utah runing dojos?


----------



## IRO-Bot

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> How many black belt are there in Utah runing dojos?




At least eight of thirteen.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I know the Alta View dojo is not run by a blackbelt, do you know of any others Doug.


----------



## almost a ghost

What!? I'm completely shocked and appauled at this news.....NOT!


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Fortunatly my dojo is run by a black belt.


----------



## IRO-Bot

Mariachi Joe said:


> I know the Alta View dojo is not run by a blackbelt, do you know of any others Doug.


 
*Bountiful* - Mr. Whittaker, 2nd dan (my instructor, a great guy and a skilled martial artist)
*Layton* - Mr. Benedict, 1st dan
*Taylorsville* - Mr. Martin, 2nd dan (probably my least favorite person in USSD at the time being.)
*West Jordan* - Ms. Robb, 1st dan
*Orem* - Mr. Perry, 4th dan (amazing)
*Provo* - Nick Strange, 1st dan
*Millcreek* - "Sensei Gao" (no one can really pronounce his real name), 2nd dan (and one of my favorite instructors.)
*Riverton* - Mr. Garvey, 2nd dan.

*Murray* - Zach, "red belt"
*Alta View* - Either Jay or Alyssa, "red belts"
*Sandy* - Duane, "red belt"
*American Fork* - Tom, "red belt" (he was made Chief Instructor in his second week at the Academy.  I do not approve, as I know what his actual rank is.  Low.)
*South Ogden* - Jamie, "red belt" (She's great, I went to school with her. She got me into United Studios, and her sister studies at Bountiful.)


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

IRO-Bot said:


> *Bountiful* - Mr. Whittaker, 2nd dan (my instructor, a great guy and a skilled martial artist)
> *Layton* - Mr. Benedict, 1st dan
> *Taylorsville* - Mr. Martin, 2nd dan (probably my least favorite person in USSD at the time being.)
> *West Jordan* - Ms. Robb, 1st dan
> *Orem* - Mr. Perry, 4th dan (amazing)
> *Provo* - Nick Strange, 1st dan
> *Millcreek* - "Sensei Gao" (no one can really pronounce his real name), 2nd dan (and one of my favorite instructors.)
> *Riverton* - Mr. Garvey, 2nd dan.
> 
> *Murray* - Zach, "red belt"
> *Alta View* - Either Jay or Alyssa, "red belts"
> *Sandy* - Duane, "red belt"
> *American Fork* - Tom, "red belt" (he was made Chief Instructor in his second week at the Academy. I do not approve, as I know what his actual rank is. Low.)
> *South Ogden* - Jamie, "red belt" (She's great, I went to school with her. She got me into United Studios, and her sister studies at Bountiful.)


 
I was told that now you cant get 3rd dan unless your a district manager.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

My instructor alluded to this, but when I kept asking why not he finally said that it could be done it would just take a long time and most people don't stay that long.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Mariachi Joe said:


> My instructor alluded to this, but when I kept asking why not he finally said that it could be done it would just take a long time and most people don't stay that long.


 
I hear ya. who wants to wait 20 years. I hear villaris test are harder than ussds and they dont base it on sales. You earn your rank not sell black belt programs for it.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> My instructor alluded to this, but when I kept asking why not he finally said that it could be done it would just take a long time and most people don't stay that long.



I have been told that students will practicly never see past 2nd degree. You know, unless there are "special circumstances", which I'm pretty sure I don't have to elaborate on.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Sad, sad stuff..

Why do you all study there again?


----------



## almost a ghost

dianhsuhe said:


> Sad, sad stuff..
> 
> Why do you all study there again?



I haven't been with them since 1998. I actually tried going back sometime in 1999, but once you're on the outside you see everything in a whole new light. Especially after my old instructors said somethings to me that made me realize that it really wasn't the place for me.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I just walked in not knowing of anywhere else that was available, but with a strong desire to do martial arts.  In hindsight I wish I would have done some more research before making any decisions, but oh well to late now.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

almost a ghost said:


> I have been told that students will practicly never see past 2nd degree. You know, unless there are "special circumstances", which I'm pretty sure I don't have to elaborate on.


 
I've heard the same thing.   Unless you invest with them or somthing else.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

dianhsuhe said:


> Sad, sad stuff..
> 
> Why do you all study there again?


 
I ran away when I found out the company was based on lies.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

almost a ghost said:


> I haven't been with them since 1998. I actually tried going back sometime in 1999, but once you're on the outside you see everything in a whole new light. Especially after my old instructors said somethings to me that made me realize that it really wasn't the place for me.


 
I know once your out your out.

What did your instructor say to you?


----------



## almost a ghost

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> I know once your out your out.
> 
> What did your instructor say to you?



"The way I see it, my students only work to pay me"


----------



## Mariachi Joe

If your instructor said that, that's wrong and you were right to leave.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> If your instructor said that, that's wrong and you were right to leave.



It was said to me when I was looking to get back.  It reinforced the negatives views that I built, hell, it validated them.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Mariachi Joe-  Too late now?  What??  It is never too late--- Been there done that!


----------



## IRO-Bot

dianhsuhe said:


> Sad, sad stuff..
> 
> Why do you all study there again?


 
There are very few things keeping me there right now.  I love the people (in my particular dojo).  That's about it.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

almost a ghost said:


> "The way I see it, my students only work to pay me"


 
Typical ussd instructor.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

I like my instructor, and the other students, that's why I stay.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Hmmm.  That would be difficult for me to do, leaving when I like the people... But wait, I DID do that!  I still kept my friends at the school, AND now I have MORE friends in a system where family is a huge part of our training!

I have even acted as a liason to black-belts from USSD or Villari's who are interested in coming to Kara-Ho. Since I have a bit in common with those folks...There are great martial artists and fighters in virtually every style including those mentioned, but in my 14 years in Kara-Ho almost every instructor or senior ranking student (green/Brown) that comes to us as a transfer, is gone.  Completely different training environment... Seems that (from their feedback as they left) the training was too tough, and the rank advancement was too slow...LOL

Many of these individuals are now high ranking teachers in "other" styles.  Whereas several instructors that transferred into Kara-Ho, including one Sgt. Major from the Marine Corps. were higher ranks in other styles yet they gave up their previous rank for a lesser rank in Kara-Ho.  This particular gentleman had over 20 years in a different style, was a 5th dan and now he is a Shodan with us.

I came in as a young in shape, brown-belt from USSD and I was NO MATCH for the average Kara-Ho Purple or Blue belt.  In fact they had been training longer and harder than me!  

I would bet there are other systems that are structured like Kara-Ho, training in garages and having long periods between ranks....There is something to be said for training in a style where almost every person being considered for black-belt has to be reviewed and promoted by the Grandmaster himself, then after the promotion, the said Grandmaster invites you into his house and cooks for everyone!  

To each their own...I wish you the best!


----------



## IRO-Bot

dianhsuhe said:


> Hmmm. That would be difficult for me to do, leaving when I like the people... But wait, I DID do that! I still kept my friends at the school, AND now I have MORE friends in a system where family is a huge part of our training!
> 
> I have even acted as a liason to black-belts from USSD or Villari's who are interested in coming to Kara-Ho. Since I have a bit in common with those folks...There are great martial artists and fighters in virtually every style including those mentioned, but in my 14 years in Kara-Ho almost every instructor or senior ranking student (green/Brown) that comes to us as a transfer, is gone. Completely different training environment... Seems that (from their feedback as they left) the training was too tough, and the rank advancement was too slow...LOL
> 
> Many of these individuals are now high ranking teachers in "other" styles. Whereas several instructors that transferred into Kara-Ho, including one Sgt. Major from the Marine Corps. were higher ranks in other styles yet they gave up their previous rank for a lesser rank in Kara-Ho. This particular gentleman had over 20 years in a different style, was a 5th dan and now he is a Shodan with us.
> 
> I came in as a young in shape, brown-belt from USSD and I was NO MATCH for the average Kara-Ho Purple or Blue belt. In fact they had been training longer and harder than me!
> 
> I would bet there are other systems that are structured like Kara-Ho, training in garages and having long periods between ranks....There is something to be said for training in a style where almost every person being considered for black-belt has to be reviewed and promoted by the Grandmaster himself, then after the promotion, the said Grandmaster invites you into his house and cooks for everyone!
> 
> To each their own...I wish you the best!


 
One of these days I would enjoy trying the Grandmaster's cooking.  Apparently it's wonderful.  Haha... I suppose I'll have to look into Kara-Ho first.  I need to talk to Sensei Hayes.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

You guys could just cross train.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Cross-Training on 2 Kempo styles would be counterproductive...Try a few and see what you like.

IRO-bot:  Yes Grandmaster Kuoha is a great cook, he always has something cookin' 

If you ever talk to Sensei Jeff (Hayes) tell him Sensei Jamey sent ya and remember he came from USSD so he may be able to relate to your situation!


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

dianhsuhe said:


> Cross-Training on 2 Kempo styles would be counterproductive...Try a few and see what you like.
> 
> IRO-bot: Yes Grandmaster Kuoha is a great cook, he always has something cookin'
> 
> If you ever talk to Sensei Jeff (Hayes) tell him Sensei Jamey sent ya and remember he came from USSD so he may be able to relate to your situation!


 

Why did Sensei Hayes quit ussd?


----------



## Gufbal1982

Joe,

As a former Chief Instructor of USSD, I'm going to say "GET OUT NOW!!!!!!"  I got screwed royally and would not recommend anyone going to the academy.  95 - 98% of the people that enroll in the academy never run studios.  They usually find out about the people they are dealing before going fully into the business and decide to leave.  Also, write your 30 day notice before your contract is up with USSD...otherwise, the contract will automatically renew.  That's one of their lovely business practices called "keeping you there at all costs."


----------



## dianhsuhe

I am not going to answer for my teacher, if you want to know- ask him!


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

dianhsuhe said:


> I am not going to answer for my teacher, if you want to know- ask him!


 
OK. Is he on this forum?


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Gufbal1982 said:


> Joe,
> 
> As a former Chief Instructor of USSD, I'm going to say "GET OUT NOW!!!!!!" I got screwed royally and would not recommend anyone going to the academy. 95 - 98% of the people that enroll in the academy never run studios. They usually find out about the people they are dealing before going fully into the business and decide to leave. Also, write your 30 day notice before your contract is up with USSD...otherwise, the contract will automatically renew. That's one of their lovely business practices called "keeping you there at all costs."


 

This is all TRUE!!  Most of them will never run a school but will run their bank account in the ground.   If you could own the dojo 100% more would run schools, but that'll never happen.


----------



## Gufbal1982

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> This is all TRUE!! Most of them will never run a school but will run their bank account in the ground. If you could own the dojo 100% more would run schools, but that'll never happen.


 

No it won't.  it used to be like that when they split from Fred Villari's in 91, but not anymore.  Less money in the corporate office's pocket.  sad but true.


----------



## mXmEulogyMxM

IRO-Bot said:


> *West Jordan* - Ms. Robb, 1st dan
> 
> *American Fork* - Tom, "red belt" (he was made Chief Instructor in his second week at the Academy.  I do not approve, as I know what his actual rank is.  Low.)



LOL, I just started out my 1-year contract at USSD for $190/month at the West Jordan Dojo.  After viewing these forums, I'm guessing that was a mistake.  Though I guess it is the only school within five-minutes drive of where I live.  The next closest Kempo dojo is over half an hour away, which I don't have to drive to 3-4 days a week.

Ms. Robb seems like a great instructor though.  She's very lenient unless you let her know your serious.  But just the stuff she lets people get away with... Bleh...    The assistant instructor, Sensei Tony, is really strict and _WILL_ make you _earn_ your rank.  I wish I could work personally with him more often, I really want to make the best out of my current situation, and I see him helping me to do so.


As for Tom...  I joined just before he went into the academy, and he had ranked Purple just prior to my joining!  Chief Instructor!?!?!?!  WHA!?!?!?!


----------



## Gufbal1982

mXmEulogyMxM said:


> LOL, I just started out my 1-year contract at USSD for $190/month at the West Jordan Dojo. After viewing these forums, I'm guessing that was a mistake. Though I guess it is the only school within five-minutes drive of where I live. The next closest Kempo dojo is over half an hour away, which I don't have to drive to 3-4 days a week.
> 
> Ms. Robb seems like a great instructor though. She's very lenient unless you let her know your serious. But just the stuff she lets people get away with... Bleh... The assistant instructor, Sensei Tony, is really strict and _WILL_ make you _earn_ your rank. I wish I could work personally with him more often, I really want to make the best the best out of my current situation, and I see him helping me to do so.
> 
> As for Tom... I joined just before he went into the academy, and he had ranked Purple just prior to my joining! Chief Instructor!?!?!?! WHA!?!?!?!


 

Typical Academy person.  Anyway, let me just say that USSD is ok at what they do.  I don't believe in paying 190 a month (which is actually cheaper than the California Schools) for one private lesson a week, plus unlimited groups from some red belt.  No thank you.  Been there, done that, won't do it again.  HOWEVER, for your present situation, it's ok.  Just out of curiousity, what other schools do you have near you?


----------



## mXmEulogyMxM

Gufbal1982 said:


> Typical Academy person.  Anyway, let me just say that USSD is ok at what they do.  I don't believe in paying 190 a month (which is actually cheaper than the California Schools) for one private lesson a week, plus unlimited groups from some red belt.  No thank you.  Been there, done that, won't do it again.  HOWEVER, for your present situation, it's ok.  Just out of curiousity, what other schools do you have near you?



EDIT: As far as Kempo goes, http://www.arrowheadkenpo.com has a studio run out of a gym.  It's about 35-40 minutes away from me.

In other arts, there's Joe-Schmucks school of Karate, Joe-Schmucks school of TKD, and Gracie Jiu Jutsu are all within 30 minutes or so, and all are fairly pricey as well.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Gracie BJJ is good.  I am going to start studying BJJ with John Machado.  Who's the instructor there?


----------



## mXmEulogyMxM

After looking around, apparently Pedro Sauer BJJ is an affiliate of Gracie BJJ, and it (PS BJJ) is the actual school here in Utah.  Shawn Weaver would be the head instructor.


----------



## Gufbal1982

mXmEulogyMxM said:


> After looking around, apparently Pedro Sauer BJJ is an affiliate of Gracie BJJ, and it (PS BJJ) is the actual school here in Utah. Shawn Weaver would be the head instructor.


 
Pedro Sauer is a Gracie BJJ black belt.  I've never heard of Shawn Weaver...have fun with ussd though and beware.  don't get sucked into anything you don't want.


----------



## IRO-Bot

mXmEulogyMxM said:


> LOL, I just started out my 1-year contract at USSD for $190/month at the West Jordan Dojo. After viewing these forums, I'm guessing that was a mistake. Though I guess it is the only school within five-minutes drive of where I live. The next closest Kempo dojo is over half an hour away, which I don't have to drive to 3-4 days a week.
> 
> Ms. Robb seems like a great instructor though. She's very lenient unless you let her know your serious. But just the stuff she lets people get away with... Bleh... The assistant instructor, Sensei Tony, is really strict and _WILL_ make you _earn_ your rank. I wish I could work personally with him more often, I really want to make the best out of my current situation, and I see him helping me to do so.
> 
> 
> As for Tom... I joined just before he went into the academy, and he had ranked Purple just prior to my joining! Chief Instructor!?!?!?! WHA!?!?!?!


 
Lori will give you a hard work out but she's not the best at doing the actual class.  And Tony is a cool guy.  I like him.  And what I suggest is that you talk to either Tony or Lori and ask to work more with Tony.  You should probably mention it to him, though, as to not hurt her feelings or whatever.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

mXmEulogyMxM said:


> LOL, I just started out my 1-year contract at USSD for $190/month at the West Jordan Dojo. After viewing these forums, I'm guessing that was a mistake. Though I guess it is the only school within five-minutes drive of where I live. The next closest Kempo dojo is over half an hour away, which I don't have to drive to 3-4 days a week.
> 
> Ms. Robb seems like a great instructor though. She's very lenient unless you let her know your serious. But just the stuff she lets people get away with... Bleh... The assistant instructor, Sensei Tony, is really strict and _WILL_ make you _earn_ your rank. I wish I could work personally with him more often, I really want to make the best out of my current situation, and I see him helping me to do so.
> 
> 
> As for Tom... I joined just before he went into the academy, and he had ranked Purple just prior to my joining! Chief Instructor!?!?!?! WHA!?!?!?!


 
There is place you can go and keep your rank.
http://shaolinarts.com/     They broke away from ussd 5-6 years ago. You can guess why.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

There are also a couple of guys that teach Kara-Ho here in Utah.  Shihan Mendoza who only teaches black belts, and Shihan Hayes out of Ogden.


----------



## Tenguru

In my opinion ...

You can be an FBI, CIA, NSA, Secret Service, DHS agent and you would still probably never get any verifiable concrete historical lineage info on the "Shaolin" in "Shaolin Kempo Karate".  Seeking such information is akin to the quest for the Holy Grail.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

The name came from GM Fred Villari who named his style Shaolin Kempo Karate.


----------



## Tenguru

Mariachi Joe said:


> The name came from GM Fred Villari who named his style Shaolin Kempo Karate.



LOL. I get your point.  But that is not quite what I'm getting at


----------



## IRO-Bot

Mariachi Joe said:


> The name came from GM Fred Villari who named his style Shaolin Kempo Karate.


 
He's refering to the lineage of the system, not it's name, nor how it got it.


----------



## Danjo

Tenguru said:


> LOL. I get your point. But that is not quite what I'm getting at


 Like I said before (sort of) if David Carradine had been playing a Ninja, then Villari's art would have been called Ninjitsu Kempo Karate.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

The story in the ussd handbook is that the Shaolin arts were taken to Okinawa were the Mitose family learned it and in the 1940's James Mitose took the art to Hawaii and taught William Chow, who taught Nick Cerio, who taught Mattera and that is the lineage to the Shaolin Temple according to the ussd handbook I was given.


----------



## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> The story in the ussd handbook is that the Shaolin arts were taken to Okinawa were the Mitose family learned it and in the 1940's James Mitose took the art to Hawaii and taught William Chow, who taught Nick Cerio, who taught Mattera and that is the lineage to the Shaolin Temple according to the ussd handbook I was given.



How long ago did you get your manual, because mine says that and I got it 13 years ago?


----------



## Mariachi Joe

last year, but it's dated since it has Mattera listed as 9th dan.


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## Hand Sword

In reference to this thread, let's be mindful of a few things. Everyone of us follows a style. ALL of those styles had a founder, or founders. They created something, based on their interpretations, likes, dislikes, tendencies, etc... They all gave what they did a name, which was their right to do, from which ALL of the styles, and systems have come from. We should all remember too, Fighting is what it is, and what it has always been, since our species' beginning. Everone has their own way or style. Now we may all disagree about how a style is marketed, but, no style is exempt from this. That's how we all know them now. As far as the Shaolin in the kempo, Fred Villari, who is the recognized founder, gave it a name, the same as everyone else did. It comes, supposedly, and we have to take his word at it, out of respect for the ways that were used to create HIS version, based on HIS, interpretation, likes, etc.. The material, as you move from green and up, if you look at it objectively, goes away from the "karate" look, taking on a more decidedly "Kung Fu" look to them. Where did Mr. Villari get the material? Books, people, or whatever, doesn't matter. There is "kung fu" in there, clearly, and if he says his sources were shaolin, so be it. In the end, He and the rest, as well as ALL OF US, did, do, and will learn a way, add to it, delete from it, change, and name what we do to represent US.


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## almost a ghost

Hand Sword, I strongly disagree with some of your view points on the subject at hand.

While anybody has the right to name the system whatever they want that they took the time to create, it doesn't make it right to name a system after something it has very little to do with. When people shrug their shoulders and say "So be it" and go on their merry way it just gives validation that it's OK to mislead people. There is nothing that dictates that we have to take his word for it. 

Sure, it may be HIS system as you pointed out, but that doesn't automatically make anything he says about it's creation and material truthful. As for the material looking more "kung fu" later on really doesn't validate the stories of how they came to be in the system and where they came from. So, where's the shaolin?


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## Danjo

Mariachi Joe said:


> The story in the ussd handbook is that the Shaolin arts were taken to Okinawa were the Mitose family learned it and in the 1940's James Mitose took the art to Hawaii and taught William Chow, who taught Nick Cerio, who taught Mattera and that is the lineage to the Shaolin Temple according to the ussd handbook I was given.


 Yikes!

First off, there is no proof that Mitose studied anything while he was in Japan (even his going to Japan is up for debate, but is pretty well established). There's every possibility that he learned all of his stuff in Hawaii. He taught some things to Prof. Chow, but was hardly Chow's only instructor. Chow taught Adriano Emperado, who in turn taught John Leoning. For a some time Leoning taught Victor "Sonny" Gascon who broke off and started Karazenpo Go Shinzitsu in 1958. One of Gascon's students was George Pesare who moved to Rhode Island and started teaching what he learned from Gascon mixed with TKD and other things he studied as well. One of Pesare's black belts was Nick Cerio who started teaching on his own at some point. One of Cerio's black belts was Fred Villari. Villari got to 2nd degree under Cerio and then broke off to start his own thing that he called Shaolin Kempo Karate. One of Villari's students was Charles Mattera who stayed with Villari up to 7th degree and then broke off to start his version of the USSD in 1988. Mattera got back in touch with Cerio to gain rank from him and did so. The union was brief, and I'm not qualified to say why they broke ties with one another, but have heard some interesting stories about it that I think are true. Then, some time after Cerio died, MAttera put back the link in his history and claims that his lineage goes from Chow to Cerio to him.

Whatever.


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## Mariachi Joe

I agree, if Mitose is the missing "link" between the Shaolin monks of old and Shaolin Kempo Karate then it's a pretty weak link at best.


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## MJS

Thread moved to Horror Stories

MJS
MT Supermod


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## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> Hand Sword, I strongly disagree with some of your view points on the subject at hand.
> 
> While anybody has the right to name the system whatever they want that they took the time to create, it doesn't make it right to name a system after something it has very little to do with. When people shrug their shoulders and say "So be it" and go on their merry way it just gives validation that it's OK to mislead people. There is nothing that dictates that we have to take his word for it.
> 
> Sure, it may be HIS system as you pointed out, but that doesn't automatically make anything he says about it's creation and material truthful. As for the material looking more "kung fu" later on really doesn't validate the stories of how they came to be in the system and where they came from. So, where's the shaolin?


 
Where did I say that it made it right? What are you strongly disagreeing with? You agreed that he can name his system what he wanted, being the founder. As for taking his word, what choice is there. Were any of us there with him, Sharing his personal experiences? Inside his mind? Bottom line is : there is kung fu in there, he got it from somewhere, and if he says he got it from shaolin sources, oh well. You are still agreeing that the kung fu is in there, as I said, So, again, where's the disagreement?. You question how it got there, Again, only Mr. Villari knows. Look, bottom line, SKK as a system exists, like it or not, There is a founder, and only he can tell what gave birth to it, believe him or not. Other than that what do you disagree strongly with my post?


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## Lisa

*Moderator Note:

This matter has been talked to death over and over again and therefore this thread is being closed.

MartialTalk is NOT a fraud busting forum.  Please take the time to read the RULES found here.  

We have left one thread open regarding USSD, however, any libelous comments will be removed and Infraction points given and/or those involved removed from the board.

Thanks for your cooperation, folks.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator
*


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