# 29th degree?



## Ronin Moose (Apr 29, 2006)

I guess by now I should not be surprised by anything, BUT somewhere between the *"29th degree"* title and the prices listed at the bottom of the page for your *pre-approved black belt*, etc., *JUST MAKES ME SICK!*

See what I'm ranting about at:     http://www.tushkahoma.com/

*-Garry*


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## Kacey (Apr 29, 2006)

I certainly have no problem with a Native American knife fighting system (indeed, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some form of fighting system developed in the Americas) - but how do you get from Native American to an Asian belt system?

And then, of course, if you pay enough you get not only a belt, but a franchise:
*
7th  degree (Warrior) Diploma and school franchise is  	available $28,000. 
**
**5th degree Diploma with school consideration is $15,000.

3rd degree Diploma with  club membership is $6,000.

**1st degree Diploma for individual membership is $2,800. *


And what exactly _is_ school consideration?  And how does that differ from a school franchise?  Still, it's nice to know that the program 

  	includes DVD or VHS tapes, manuals, black belt and certification and  	some personal instruction. 

After all, if they're going to accept payment by money order or cashier's check, it's nice to know there's _some_ personal instruction.

I wonder if he's sold his system to anyone?  _<<<<shudder>>>>:mrtoilet::disgust::anic:_


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## green meanie (Apr 29, 2006)

Oh Good God! No No Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!
:angry: :angry: :angry:


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## hemi (Apr 29, 2006)

Is this guy serious 28,000 for some DVDs (Some personal instruction) a Black belt, some manuals and certification What a Joke? And I think it is horrible that he is using Native American heritage in a deceitful way. I noticed he is located about 20 min away from me in Garland TX. I am half tempted to visit his store and tell him face to face that its despicable. Maybe I should bring my 62 280lbs Native American neighbor with me LMAO. I could tell this guy, here meet my friend Two Feathers (His real Indian name) he is a 34th Deg black belt. LOL


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## Drac (Apr 29, 2006)

Ronin Moose said:
			
		

> I guess by now I should not be surprised by anything, BUT somewhere between the *"29th degree"* title and the prices listed at the bottom of the page for your *pre-approved black belt*, etc., *JUST MAKES ME SICK!*
> 
> See what I'm ranting about at: http://www.tushkahoma.com/
> 
> *-Garry*


 
He must have gave himself a promotion..The last time I saw his advertizment he was only a 10th Degree..


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## mantis (Apr 29, 2006)

it may sound sad to us
but it's hella funny if someone actually buys those.. that would be hilarious 

oh GOD, this site is funny


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## Kwiter (Apr 29, 2006)

I believe Adrian Roman is 8th degree American Kenpo and that 28th Degree is in his own system, so he can make himself anything he likes.

I own his Forms DVD of Short 1 thru long 3 and his instruction seems sound, the quality of the video is a bit soft but quite watchable. 

On his website the complete DVD set with DVD for each of the Belts Yellow Thru first Degree Black is $995 and includes a CD of the PDF's of the American Kenpo printed materials. On Ebay you can buy this from him for $99 or so(I'm bidding on it now in fact) 

I asked about Belt testing and he says he works on the Honor system where he'll take your word that you know the material. But you need to be Belt tested for black Belt to be "officially recognized"

I'm buying as reference for my daughters who are studying at a local Dojo and their Sensei says that they use the American Kenpo forms tho they teach stuff from other systems as well to make them more rounded.

My two Loonies worth.

Skennen Peace.


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## green meanie (Apr 29, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> He must have gave himself a promotion...


 
Ya think?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 29, 2006)

Well, it wasn't clear to me in reading (skimming actually, so I very well may have missed it) that this was actually 29th degree black belt.  I sort of got the impression that it could have been a more nebulous 29 degree (levels) in the art, but this may be uncomparable to any black belt level or system.

Still, it comes across as hokey at best, because it certainly gives the impression at least that he is referring to black belt level.


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## Kwiter (Apr 29, 2006)

The Dojo came first for my Girls, the Videos are my idea, anything that helps them along. I've no intention of replacing their Sensei with the Teachings of Grand Master Roman's. 


I've never seen any Adrian Roman Franchises out there so don't think anyones taken hm up on his $28,000 offer. 

My girls go to a Franchise, Amerikick which I THINK is Larry Tatums baby.
My fried Sensei Tommy Carano of Hoteikan likens the franchise to McDonalds but my girls are enjoying it, and seem to be learning , they almost never throw the oddball bent at bizarre angle Girl punches anymore they now almost always throw straight out No disrespect ladies(My Culture is Matrilienal iow the women are the ones who hold the power and land) but most Girls if not properly throw some of the craziest looking bunches I've ever seen.

Hopefully they'll keep with it but ya never know, they're only 5 & 6 at the moment ;-)


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## Jmh7331 (Apr 29, 2006)

I'd like to meet his daughter though!


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## Gemini (Apr 29, 2006)

2004hemi said:
			
		

> I noticed he is located about 20 min away from me in Garland TX. I am half tempted to visit his store and tell him face to face that its despicable.


You mean as if anyone would really be at that address? Not Likely.

28K though. You figure we have how many millions of people in this country. You only need to sell 2 or 3 a year to make a living. Unfortunate as it may be, it sounds doable. The horror!


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## Drac (Apr 30, 2006)

Kwiter said:
			
		

> On Ebay you can buy this from him for $99 or so(I'm bidding on it now in fact)Skennen Peace.


 
That still too much money..There's a guy on Ebay selling this system that promises to make you an elite level black belt in the privacy of your home in ONE WEEK..Such a deal...


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## Franc0 (Apr 30, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> That still too much money..There's a guy on Ebay selling this system that promises to make you an elite level black belt in the privacy of your home in ONE WEEK..Such a deal...


 
Sigh, and here I am going on 35 years and I still haven't got there yet...:idunno: 


Franco


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## green meanie (Apr 30, 2006)

masterfinger said:
			
		

> Sigh, and here I am going on 35 years and I still haven't got there yet...:idunno:
> Franco


 
That makes too of us. What are we doing wrong?


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## Ray (May 1, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> And then, of course, if you pay enough you get not only a belt, but a franchise:
> 
> *7th degree (Warrior) Diploma and school franchise is     available $28,000. *


If I spend $100/month on lessons, in person; then in 24 years I would have spent $28,000.  Now I can skip the hard work, dedication and perserverance and get the diploma just by writing a check?

The only question I would have is: does the skill that comes from 24 years of hard work also come with the $28K diploma?


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## Gemini (May 1, 2006)

Ray said:
			
		

> If I spend $100/month on lessons, in person; then in 24 years I would have spent $28,000. Now I can skip the hard work, dedication and perserverance and get the diploma just by writing a check?
> 
> The only question I would have is: does the skill that comes from 24 years of hard work also come with the $28K diploma?


 
Hmm. Good question. If we ever catch up to the Winibego I'm sure he works out of, we'll have to ask him.


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## mantis (May 1, 2006)

Ray said:
			
		

> If I spend $100/month on lessons, in person; then in 24 years I would have spent $28,000. Now I can skip the hard work, dedication and perserverance and get the diploma just by writing a check?
> 
> The only question I would have is: does the skill that comes from 24 years of hard work also come with the $28K diploma?


exactly
and what are the chances you are going to have to test those martial arts skills? not much, huh?
good point!


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## green meanie (May 1, 2006)

Gemini said:
			
		

> Hmm. Good question. If we ever catch up to the Winibego I'm sure he works out of, we'll have to ask him.


 
:rofl:


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## Kwiter (May 1, 2006)

I'm confused why you would think Adrian Roman is in a Winnebago, nor why you would think he DOES NOT have a School in Dallas Texas.

Do you think that of ALL people who sell Videos of MA or just Adrian Roman?
If it's all people then I guess Larry Tatum has no school either and lives in a Winnebago. 

sometimes it seems some folks here simply are Trolling or talking about things they know NOTHING about.

I'd say it's Pretty simple to check if he has a School in Texas, the Better Business Bureau or the county clerks office can easily help you with that.
Hell even contacting the folks who do Karatekast can net you the answer most likely as they are also in the Dallas Area.


I think it's cowardly to insult someone who is not there to defend themselves.


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## Gemini (May 1, 2006)

Kwiter said:
			
		

> I'm confused why you would think Adrian Roman is in a Winnebago, nor why you would think he DOES NOT have a School in Dallas Texas.


The comment was meant more metaphically speaking for the type of business than at a particular individual. If he owns a school in Dallas, that's great, but the focus of this discussion is mail order. Particularly, HIS mail order.



			
				Kwiter said:
			
		

> Do you think that of ALL people who sell Videos of MA or just Adrian Roman?


 No. I don't think this of all people who sell videos.
No. I don't think think this of just Adrian Roman.
There's lots of rocks that have crawly things under them, but not all.



			
				Kwiter said:
			
		

> If it's all people then I guess Larry Tatum has no school either and lives in a Winnebago.


 Don't know him and he's not part of the discussion. 



			
				Kwiter said:
			
		

> sometimes it seems some folks here simply are Trolling or talking about things they know NOTHING about.


 And sometimes people stand up and call a spade a spade. If it offends you that other people refuse to buy into that garbage, I'm sorry, but it is what it is.



			
				Kwiter said:
			
		

> I'd say it's Pretty simple to check if he has a School in Texas, the Better Business Bureau or the county clerks office can easily help you with that.
> Hell even contacting the folks who do Karatekast can net you the answer most likely as they are also in the Dallas Area.


Already covered this, but as far as the BBB, that may be, but a business can be legal AND unethical at the same time. If condoning such practice is okay by you, so be it. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.



			
				Kwiter said:
			
		

> I think it's cowardly to insult someone who is not there to defend themselves.


 How do you know he's not here? He could be. I don't know that nor do you. But assuming he's not, I think it's unethical to take advantage of the unwary. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. If you're good with it, fine. I'm not. If it makes me a coward to respond to a thread that exposes such practice, so be it. I can live with that. There are worse things.


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## Kwiter (May 2, 2006)

You are certainly entitled to your opinon, it's even protected by the First Amendment, but we must be wary of how we speak of people in public forum such as this lest we be hit with Slander and libel suits. some of which are FRIVOLOUS of course.

Perhaps if I owned a school I'd have a vastly different opinion too of those who sell Videos and promise you a BB if you study the material. 
I've said this repeatedly when talking about this Distance Learning that my children attend a Brick and mortar School and will continue to do so and the Videos are nothing but extra material to help them along as "I" am a Video fiend and do find them useful for learning things. MA training has not been one of the things I've tried as yet and some have posited that certain techniques will likely be buggered up because seein it on a video doesn't show exactly whats being done. I "HOPE" that the Ed Parker Manual that comes with the videos can offset that but till I actually have this set in my Grubby little hands I don't know. 

In another thread someone said "would you bet your life on it" I mentioned seeing many folks who were trained in Brick and Mortar Schools  being beaten bloody and have done so myself in my youth to several MA practitioners, this doesn't prove ALL students are inept just that just because you train in MA doesn't mean you're learning anything or retaining it might be better way to say it.

I think until I have time to reveiw these videos I'll refrain from posting here tho. Perhaps my mind will be changed after seeing them tho I'm doubtful of this.

I will say this for now tho, it seems the biggest critics of this seem to be those with the most to lose if they are useful. IOW School owners who need a constant flow of new $$$ to keep their business's going Perhaps I'm the one who's stereotyping now. Just the perception I'm getting.

Skennen Peace.


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## bydand (May 2, 2006)

Kwiter said:
			
		

> I will say this for now tho, it seems the biggest critics of this seem to be those with the most to lose if they are useful. IOW School owners who need a constant flow of new $$$ to keep their business's going Perhaps I'm the one who's stereotyping now. Just the perception I'm getting.



Well I'm not about to speculate about who is sterotyping others, but will point out right away that I am NOT a school owner, instructor, or anything except a student who tries hard and fails often.  With that being said, I looked at the site mentioned and have to send out this opinion: :bs:As I said this is just my impression of the site and the offer.  Anybody that makes it a selling point that with payment, the shipment will include the training videos AND Black Belt is just like the online "Universities" that will send out the diploma for a set fee without actually reviewing the work.  Other video training offers require the person to send in videos to SHOW what they have been doing and then will award the next belt level.  This is the only one I've seen that sends the "final" Black Belt with the videos right away.   Am I going to question if his school actually exists? - NO I'm not, because if it exists or not, is irrevelent to the video program offered and what is being disscused and commented on in this thread.  

Personally, any BB that was just given to me without question, training, or testing would be just so much useless cloth with ZERO meaning.  Sure I could open my own school with the certificate and franchise, but just exactly how good would the training be that I would be "selling" to unsuspecting students walking through the door?  Even if it did go to someone who felt morally obligated to go through the videos and do the training in them, without the feedback of an instructor, it would be the same as watching every episode of "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and then granting myself a BB, printing out a nice looking certificate and opening my own Ninjutsu school.


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## DuneViking (May 2, 2006)

Greetings,

A Fool and his $ . . . .


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## Flying Crane (May 2, 2006)

Kwiter said:
			
		

> I've said this repeatedly when talking about this Distance Learning that my children attend a Brick and mortar School and will continue to do so and the Videos are nothing but extra material to help them along as "I" am a Video fiend and do find them useful for learning things.
> 
> I will say this for now tho, it seems the biggest critics of this seem to be those with the most to lose if they are useful. IOW School owners who need a constant flow of new $$$ to keep their business's going Perhaps I'm the one who's stereotyping now. Just the perception I'm getting.
> 
> Skennen Peace.


 
Kwiter: 

I think you will find that the majority opinion regarding video/distance learning is that it is a waste of time.  This opinion is shared by both instructors with schools, and those who are not instructors, such as myself.

CAN one learn from a video?  Yes.  But those with the greatest potential to learn the most successfully from a video are also those who are already highly experienced with the martial arts, and are therefor those who have the least need to learn from a video.  In short, their training and skills are already solid, and whatever they may learn from a video is probably stuff they don't have a real need for.

CAN a _beginner_ learn from a video?  Yes, but the resulting knowledge and skills gained from video learning alone are all but guaranteed to be very poor.  Is this better than nothing?  Maybe.  The problem is, one might learn just enough from a video to get a false sense of security in thinking that he is developing useful skills.  This might be just enough to get yourself killed in a real confrontation.

You have indicated several times in your postings that your daughters are training in a real kenpo school, under instructors who are not affiliated with Mr. Roman.  You indicated that you purchased the videos to give your daughters some guidance in practicing outside the dojo, and you were inclined to purchase from Mr. Roman because of a shared Native American heritage (different tribal affiliations aside).  These are motivations that I have the utmost respect for.

However, as I stated in another thread, I think your intentions, however nobly motiviated, are misguided.  Your daughters definitely need to train outside the dojo, or their development will be much slower and ultimately much more limited.  Martial arts are like that: they need constant attention and training, or your skills start to slip and you start to forget things.  But using videos, especially videos not made by your daughters instructors, is not the best way for them to do this.  They should instead focus their efforts on practicing what they have learned from their instructor.  As they learn more, they will have more to practice.  Everything they learn should continue to be practiced.  New material should not replace old material, but instead should be ADDED to old material.  They can keep a notebook to help them remember things, until the knowledge is deeply ingrained and they won't forget it.

While Mr. Roman claims to practice and teach Ed Parker's kenpo, that DOES NOT mean what he teaches will be identical to what your daughters are learning.  Many people studied under Mr. Parker, over a period of many years.  As Mr. Parker constantly revised his system, he taught things differently to different people, depending on WHEN that person studied with him.  What his earliest students, those who studied with him in the 1950s and 1960s, teach is quite different from what his latest students, those who were with him in the 1980s are teaching.  

Giving your daughters videos made by a different source from their instructor will just confuse them.  Video instruction is a bad idea to begin with, and these particular circumstances are more likely to create confusion for your daughters then aid their training.

With regard to Mr. Roman's specific program, I do not know him and cannot vouche for his skills one way or the other.  If he claims to be good, I am willing to believe him until I meet him and can then judge for myself.  However, the information posted on his website raises many serious red flags.  It appears to me that he is very Profit-Motivated, and is willing to sell rank and status for a large sum of money.  In my opinion, this is serious enough to suggest that you stear clear of him.

Hope this helps.

Michael


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## green meanie (May 2, 2006)

I think the debate about whether Distance Learning works or doesn't work is a separate matter and not the real issue here. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with trying to learn any way you can and video is a valuable resource. BUT... NO video tape series should come with an automatic black belt attached to it and anyone who's willing to pay 28,000 for it didn't do it for the tapes they're buying a black belt they didn't earn. That's what we're REALLY talking about here. And it's wrong. And you know it.


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## still learning (May 5, 2006)

Hello, Marketing...marketing and more marketing.....the more the advertising can convince you the more you will buy into it.

Anyone can make claims of any rank..if it is his own business....keep in mind if it is too good to be true....than watch out!

He is in the business to sell and make money....it you see the ads all the time? ...then it is working.  Money can buy almost anything now days.

Trust your intincts...believe in yourself...do not let others...over influence you with there ads.

Anyone can start a martial art school...anywhere,anytime,..use your experience and start your own if you always want to.  Please talk to your Sensi's first.  ........Aloha


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## liuseongsystem (May 5, 2006)

videos are relatively useless to beginners.

at most only serves to confuse, and there are a lot of little details that need to be transmitted in person.

more importantly, correction of a student must be done in person. without this you will continue to make mistakes that you are unaware of.

if you are an advanced martial artsist, then good videos can be a great source of information and inspiration.

this guy with the mail order seventh degee franchise is rephrehensible.

no such thing

28th degree? must be Masonic Karate.

thanx.


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## Kwiter (May 5, 2006)

Kwe sewakwekon, Hello everyone, I got the Videos yesterday. Other than the Yellow Belt DVD teaching the complete set of actions for the Yellow Belt ala Ed Parker Kenpo, I see little difference from what my Daughters are being taught, I'm going to query my girls Sensei as to why Techniques such as Delayed Sword ARE NOT being taught tho I ASSUME it's due to their being 5 & 6 year olds so perhaps it's being dumbed down for them a bit, my girls I've seen do the Star Blocks(was another name he used but can't recall it at the moment) tho they were taught to do them with both hands/arms at once, whereas Mr Roman shows them done one arm at a time.  My girls are being taught snap kicks and side kicks and a few other strikes that were absent from the Yellow Belt instruction but I again assume this is due to the lack of techniques such as delayed sword.

I see a MUCH cleaner picture on the Yellow Belt DVD than I did when I watched the Forms DVD which I'm happy about. I THINK this will help them some espescially this summer while they are visiting their Grandma in July/August and missing Training....... Then again they may not ever turn it on ;-) Lots to do in Dominican Republic outdoors ;-)

With luck I'll be able to give a cursory view of all the videos over the next few days and give more info In MY opinon.


Still can't say for sure wether I think this would work for a complete novice but I could follow along with what I saw on the Yellow Belt disc fairly easily but then again I'm not a complete beginner to fighting.

And I paid $89 for the complete set from Yellow to 1st Degree Black
I'm pretty happy with the quality for the price. I'm quite likely to buy MORE videos tho ;-)
Skennen Peace


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## patroldawg27 (May 6, 2006)

29th degree?? How do you fit all those stripes on your belt???


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## bydand (May 6, 2006)

patroldawg27 said:
			
		

> 29th degree?? How do you fit all those stripes on your belt???



It looks like a white belt with a little bit of black on the ends I suppose.  I was wondering the same thing.


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## splazzatch (May 9, 2006)

This makes me cry....


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## Silly Limey (Jul 6, 2006)

Ah, my two favorite things... a charlatan martial artist and a fake Native American, combined into one.


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