# The Vice & Delayed Sword



## MJS (May 14, 2007)

I wanted to discuss these two techniques, as they are similar in nature.  One of course is a Tracy technique and the other Parker.  

The Vice: Right Punch.

Right inward block-front snap kick to opponents groin.

Two knife hand strikes to opponents collar bones, driving opponent back.

Shuffle forward- 2 double finger spears to opponents eyes.

Cover.


Delayed Sword:  Lapel Grab.

1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs your lapel with their right hand. 

2. Step your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right inward block to your attacker's right inner wrist. (At the same time, your left hand should be checking at _solar plexus_ level as a precautionary check against any possible action.) 

3. Immediately slide your right foot back to a transitional cat stance. Execute a right front snap kick to your attacker's groin. [This will cause your attacker to bend forward at the waist.] 

4. Plant your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow, checking off your attacker's right knee, as you simultaneously execute a right outward handsword to the right side of the attacker's neck.


Now, it has been discussed that this technique can also be done off of a right punch.  So, keeping the same footwork, blocks, etc., change the nature of the attack to a right punch.  If we look at both of the techniques, they are similar, but slightly different.  In this video clip, we see Clyde addressing this tech. from a grab as well as a punch.  We see what happens when the height, width and depth is not checked.  Approx. 5 min into the clip, is when you should see the punch being addressed.  

So my question is:  Do you feel that both of these techniques work well from a punch?  How do you, if at all, defend against the possibility of the opponent moving forward for the tackle?


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## michaeledward (May 14, 2007)

Concerning the Vice ... I am assuming two inward hand swords to the collarbones ... which means my arms are crossed. I don't like that. How do I get my left hand high-enough to execute that strike correctly. Also, I'm not certain we have elimiated enough weapons to move inside like that. A good counter might be Cross of Death. 

But, I don't really know the technique. 


I do not like the technique Delayed Sword against a punch. While the individual basics will work, I think that further training teaches other actions against a weapon in motion; moving into the attack, moving outside the attack. 

Remember, the danger in Delayed Sword is the left hand. If we execute this technique against a right punch, the focus for danger moves to the right hand.


As for a defense against a tackle; the groin kick should do something to stop it. And, I think the kick could become a more effective deterant by altering the target from the groin to the sternum; move that target up, and you will alter the reaction of the bad guy. If he is bending forward for a tackle, we get the added benefit - a little bit of him/a little bit of me.


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## MJS (May 14, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> Concerning the Vice ... I am assuming two inward hand swords to the collarbones ... which means my arms are crossed. I don't like that. How do I get my left hand high-enough to execute that strike correctly. Also, I'm not certain we have elimiated enough weapons to move inside like that. A good counter might be Cross of Death.
> 
> But, I don't really know the technique.


 
The sword hand strikes are more of a driving motion, rather than inward or downward.  After the initial block, as you're landing forward, the collarbones are being hit.




> I do not like the technique Delayed Sword against a punch. While the individual basics will work, I think that further training teaches other actions against a weapon in motion; moving into the attack, moving outside the attack.
> 
> Remember, the danger in Delayed Sword is the left hand. If we execute this technique against a right punch, the focus for danger moves to the right hand.


 
If the left was to come, grafting to say, Sword of Destruction is an option.




> As for a defense against a tackle; the groin kick should do something to stop it. And, I think the kick could become a more effective deterant by altering the target from the groin to the sternum; move that target up, and you will alter the reaction of the bad guy. If he is bending forward for a tackle, we get the added benefit - a little bit of him/a little bit of me.


 
Good points.  Having a solid stance plays a part as well IMO.


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## Flying Crane (May 14, 2007)

OK, with the Vise, the tech isn't taught with double handswords to the collar bones, altho I could see that as a viable option.  Instead, the heel of the knifehands of both hands are placed together, palms up, fingers of both hands pointed outwards, forming a sort of clamping wedge.  This wedge is driven into the throat, the hands then clamp together around the throat as you withdraw, making a sort of ripping out thru the throat.  The attack thru the eyes is a sort of rolling rake, ripping the fingers thru starting with the pinkies, rolling thru all the fingers, and ending by driving the thumbs into the eyes.  

We also have Delayed Sword in Tracys.  We do it against a punch, so we block with an inward block.  We follow with a front kick to the groin.  The real purpose of this kick is to draw his guard low, so we can finish him with the handsword to the neck.

I personally like both of them for the punch.

As far as the tackle goes, I think the both address this issue in how they are arranged.

With Vise, if he lunges for the tackle, he is just throwing himself off of your vise-clamp to his throat.

With Delayed Sword, the kick to the groin causes a reflexive action where he will stop and withdraw the hips to protect his groin.  Sort of nullifies an attempt to lunge in.


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## Jim Hanna (May 14, 2007)

Tactically, I teach the Vise as a technique when you are up against a wall and in tight quarters (perhaps chairs/people on both sides of you).  It gets my students thinking more about tactics and environment.

Why would anyone stand in the center of the clock and not move when attacked and if the environment permitted it?  Does not make sense to me.

Jim


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> OK, with the Vise, the tech isn't taught with double handswords to the collar bones, altho I could see that as a viable option. Instead, the heel of the knifehands of both hands are placed together, palms up, fingers of both hands pointed outwards, forming a sort of clamping wedge. This wedge is driven into the throat, the hands then clamp together around the throat as you withdraw, making a sort of ripping out thru the throat. The attack thru the eyes is a sort of rolling rake, ripping the fingers thru starting with the pinkies, rolling thru all the fingers, and ending by driving the thumbs into the eyes.
> 
> We also have Delayed Sword in Tracys. We do it against a punch, so we block with an inward block. We follow with a front kick to the groin. The real purpose of this kick is to draw his guard low, so we can finish him with the handsword to the neck.
> 
> ...


 
In Delayed Sword...interesting to note that an in-built anti-lunging mechanism is available by simply modifying the target from da nuts, to the pubic bone...just below the bladder, and just above where your junk attaches to your body. Blows the guy backwards & away if you aim penetration a couple inches behind the target.

Spread love,

Dave


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## Flying Crane (May 14, 2007)

Jim Hanna said:


> Tactically, I teach the Vise as a technique when you are up against a wall and in tight quarters (perhaps chairs/people on both sides of you). It gets my students thinking more about tactics and environment.
> 
> Why would anyone stand in the center of the clock and not move when attacked and if the environment permitted it? Does not make sense to me.
> 
> Jim


 
Hey Jim, 

would you care to elaborate a bit here, what exactly you are thinking of?  thx!


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## Flying Crane (May 14, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> In Delayed Sword...interesting to note that an in-built anti-lunging mechanism is available by simply modifying the target from da nuts, to the pubic bone...just below the bladder, and just above where your junk attaches to your body. Blows the guy backwards & away if you aim penetration a couple inches behind the target.
> 
> Spread love,
> 
> Dave


 
cool,  i'll make a note of that.


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## Touch Of Death (May 14, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> In Delayed Sword...interesting to note that an in-built anti-lunging mechanism is available by simply modifying the target from da nuts, to the pubic bone...just below the bladder, and just above where your junk attaches to your body. Blows the guy backwards & away if you aim penetration a couple inches behind the target.
> 
> Spread love,
> 
> Dave


We are taught that a groin shot "is" an attemt to break the pubic bone, and screw a couple of inches penatration. The target is always the spine; the groin is just in the way.:angel: 
Sean


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## CoryKS (May 14, 2007)

Is the neutral bow the same thing as a fighting horse stance?  I'm not familiar with the term.  thx


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## MJS (May 14, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> OK, with the Vise, the tech isn't taught with double handswords to the collar bones, altho I could see that as a viable option. Instead, the heel of the knifehands of both hands are placed together, palms up, fingers of both hands pointed outwards, forming a sort of clamping wedge. This wedge is driven into the throat, the hands then clamp together around the throat as you withdraw, making a sort of ripping out thru the throat. The attack thru the eyes is a sort of rolling rake, ripping the fingers thru starting with the pinkies, rolling thru all the fingers, and ending by driving the thumbs into the eyes.


 
Gotta love those variations!   Personally, I like the method you describe above.  I'll have to give that a shot!


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 14, 2007)

I was almost tempted to try this "Vice" technique until Mike ruined it for me and said it was a Tracy technique.  Being a Parker guy I can't condone such foolishness and.....wait a minute....that doesn't make any sense...


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## Flying Crane (May 14, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> I was almost tempted to try this "Vice" technique until Mike ruined it for me and said it was a Tracy technique. Being a Parker guy I can't condone such foolishness and.....wait a minute....that doesn't make any sense...


 
Stay over on your side, or I'm Tellin'!!


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## MJS (May 14, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> I was almost tempted to try this "Vice" technique until Mike ruined it for me and said it was a Tracy technique. Being a Parker guy I can't condone such foolishness and.....wait a minute....that doesn't make any sense...


 
Oh come on..you know you want to come to the dark side!   LOL!



Flying Crane said:


> Stay over on your side, or I'm Tellin'!!


 
LMAO!!


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## HKphooey (May 14, 2007)

Gotta love the Vice. Anyone seen Tubbs? 
Like Mr. Hanna said, Vice is good for "back against the wall" or being sandwiched between attackers.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Is the neutral bow the same thing as a fighting horse stance? I'm not familiar with the term. thx


 
Used interchangeably in some lineages, it's sort of like...if you took a side fighting horse, snuck your rear foot around the COG towards the front of your body, so you didn't have a straight line going back. Lots of advantages, including not having to reach as much around yourself to deploy rear hand & foot, better stability in more directions, etc.

If I can find any good pics, I'll post 'em. Toe-heel line looks less like "l', and more like "/".


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> We are taught that a groin shot "is" an attemt to break the pubic bone, and screw a couple of inches penatration. The target is always the spine; the groin is just in the way.:angel:
> Sean


 
Lovin' the angel innocence. Shoveling upwards in a lifting fashion does a nice job of squishing things what don't like squishing, but is a less-effective vector for driving the pelvis out from under the attacker. Shooting that foot into the pubic symphasis in a plane line parallel to the floor, aiming for the rear of the guy...sweet watching their upper body snap forward, face twisted in pain and surprise, as their lower half leaves out the back door.

We used to refer to this as "blow the guys pelvis out from under him". Used it once bouncing; my hands were full of bar glass while I was arguing with some weasel about closing time, and he opted to swing his bottle at me. Awesome manipulation of his distancing in the attack. Hit him so hard, his feet slid out from under him, and he was vomiting on the way down.

Hm. Bottle. Vomit. Kinda makes me want a beer.

Spread more love and more pain,

Dave.


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## michaeledward (May 14, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Is the neutral bow the same thing as a fighting horse stance? I'm not familiar with the term. thx


 
CoryKS ... as near as I can figure out, the fighting horse stance is a bit narrower in width than the neutral bow. There are long debates about these two stances, and how they are interpreted .... I get dizzy reading them. 

In a neutral bow, as I understand it, there is a more exposed center line, but there is also better access for the rear weapons. 

Others will begin ranting now


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## CoryKS (May 15, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Used interchangeably in some lineages, it's sort of like...if you took a side fighting horse, snuck your rear foot around the COG towards the front of your body, so you didn't have a straight line going back. Lots of advantages, including not having to reach as much around yourself to deploy rear hand & foot, better stability in more directions, etc.
> 
> If I can find any good pics, I'll post 'em. Toe-heel line looks less like "l', and more like "/".


 
Thanks for the description, I think I understand now.


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## Jim Hanna (May 15, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Hey Jim,
> 
> would you care to elaborate a bit here, what exactly you are thinking of? thx!


 

I teach my students that the first thing to do when attacked is just move. I don't care which angle you move to, just move. You do not have time to recognize that you are being attacked, analyze the attack, run through your mental inventory of self defense techniques, choose one, and then execute it. If your inventory of techniques is large enough, you will never find yourself in a position that you are unfamiliar with. You will always be able to deliver a weapon to a target, so just move.

If you do not move from the center of the clock you are probably in color code white ( relaxed and unaware). If so, its too late, even if you are a black belt. However, there may be occasions when you may find yourself in an environment that prohibits you from moving. (For example, a telephone booth--for those old enough to remember what those are). In those occasions, techniques like The Vise teach a student how to respond.

Jim


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## Flying Crane (May 15, 2007)

Jim Hanna said:


> I teach my students that the first thing to do when attacked is just move. I don't care which angle you move to, just move. You do not have time to recognize that you are being attacked, analyze the attack, run through your mental inventory of self defense techniques, choose one, and then execute it. If your inventory of techniques is large enough, you will never find yourself in a position that you are unfamiliar with. You will always be able to deliver a weapon to a target, so just move.
> 
> If you do not move from the center of the clock you are probably in color code white ( relaxed and unaware). If so, its too late, even if you are a black belt. However, there may be occasions when you may find yourself in an environment that prohibits you from moving. (For example, a telephone booth--for those old enough to remember what those are). In those occasions, techniques like The Vise teach a student how to respond.
> 
> Jim


 
Interesting thoughts, thankyou.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 15, 2007)

Jim Hanna said:


> I teach my students that the first thing to do when attacked is just move. I don't care which angle you move to, just move. You do not have time to recognize that you are being attacked, analyze the attack, run through your mental inventory of self defense techniques, choose one, and then execute it. If your inventory of techniques is large enough, you will never find yourself in a position that you are unfamiliar with. You will always be able to deliver a weapon to a target, so just move.
> 
> If you do not move from the center of the clock you are probably in color code white ( relaxed and unaware). If so, its too late, even if you are a black belt. However, there may be occasions when you may find yourself in an environment that prohibits you from moving. (For example, a telephone booth--for those old enough to remember what those are). In those occasions, techniques like The Vise teach a student how to respond.
> 
> Jim


 
What's a telephone booth?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 15, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> What's a telephone booth?


 
Upstart pup.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (May 20, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> What's a telephone booth?


It was a place where Superman could change clothes.
Loved that moment in the first movie.


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## KenpoDave (May 20, 2007)

For thwarting the tackle on Vise...since the block/kick combo happen first,if the guy decides to shoot to a tackle, he SHOULD eat your knee.

In Delayed Sword, making the transition from doing the kick after the block to having to do it RIGHT NOW because you're about to be tackled is not really all that difficult, if you have worked it that way.

Now, in both scenarios, you are likely still going down.  But the other guy is going down with a mouthful of knee.  

If the knee rushing towards his teeth is enough to give him pause, you are in a really nice position to use that half of an inward block you've already thrown as a downward elbow to the base of the skull...


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## Randy Strausbaugh (May 22, 2007)

KenpoDave said:


> If the knee rushing towards his teeth is enough to give him pause, you are in a really nice position to use that half of an inward block you've already thrown as a downward elbow to the base of the skull...


Which sets him up beautifully for right-left descending knifehands to the base of the skull, which sets up a right rising claw to the face, which sets up a left thrusting heelpalm to...
Well, you get the idea. That's one of the things which got me hooked on Kenpo, the follow-ups. The amount and variety (not to mention the severity) of the moves lies in your discretion/creativity/ability. No "throw the technique and then step back to see what happens". JMHO, of course.


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## kenpostudent (Jul 14, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> In Delayed Sword...interesting to note that an in-built anti-lunging mechanism is available by simply modifying the target from da nuts, to the pubic bone...just below the bladder, and just above where your junk attaches to your body. Blows the guy backwards & away if you aim penetration a couple inches behind the target.
> 
> Spread love,
> 
> Dave



You would have the same effect unless you change the method of execution of the kick from snap to thrust, though. That would defeat the purpose of the technique because the hand sword to the neck would be tough to land without shuffling in. You lose the power gained from acheiving meeting force with the handsword.

To avoid the tackle, all you really have to do is adequately check his width with a solid block...no sissy, slappity-slap blocks. Let's not make this simple technique too hard. 

You can also change the timing for the punch...the block and the kick can fire at the same time...much like the kick and the poke in Defying the Rod.


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## Doc (Jul 14, 2007)

Interesting ideas. I'll address "Delayed Sword" as that is a Parker Technique we spent a lot of time on, and its variant for a punch, "Sword of Doom." 

One of the things that hasn't been addressed in "Delayed Sword" is how you address the body momentum that accompanies the grab. The reasons for grabs initially are intimidation and limited control, therefore they don't take place in a sterile environment without significant contact. I teach this technique as a hammering heel palm driving against the body forcing you back, followed by a seizing of the hand to the clothing. Therefore in the assault you are struck in the chest, driven backwards, and then seized with the possibility of additional attacks.

Most don't even consider these things. Think about it. Someone slowly walks up to you, and grabs your lapel in such a manner it has no impact on your body whatsoever. Not only is that an unreal grab, but I doubt any of you would let someone get that far if they did it that way. No this technique is a surprise coming from stealth, that slams into you.

We employ distinctive stances, footwork, and hand Indexing to regain our balance and solidify our stance(s), while pinning his hand to our lapel. From there we strike to the head of the humerus of the shoulder, cutting across the Line of Sight to disrupt the visual Cortex and induce a PNF Sensor Reflex and Muscle Reassignment just prior to the strike. This single action will weaken him, open the Lung Point on the shoulder, and weaken the grip strength in the hand. Additionally when we pinned his hand, we also impacted a major PNF sensor in the other hand causing additional muscle reassignment by changing the shape of the metacarpals of the seizing hand. The striking hand remains on the shoulder to control depth for the next action.

All of this occurs on the first movement of initial retaliation.

Working from a solid stance utilizing specific footwork, we step FORWARD into a cat stance and execute a gauging kick between the legs. Because of the anatomical geometric variances in the length of the pinned arm, as well as the defender you cannot assign a specific type of front kick from 'arms length.'

If you step back into a cat stance, you cannot account for the forward body momentum of the attacker, and you are fatally misaligned and will be driven backwards into a possible grappling situation.

After the kick is delivered, you move forward in a Braced Index Position just prior to a right outward downward handsword to a specific point on the side of the neck to induce PMD, Physical & Mental Disassociation as you plant into a right neutral bow.

And for the record, you cannot control, stop, or account for a grappling response by blocking alone.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 14, 2007)

Nice summation. Thanks!

D.


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## Jim Hanna (Jul 14, 2007)

Doc said:


> Interesting ideas. I'll address "Delayed Sword" as that is a Parker Technique we spent a lot of time on, and its variant for a punch, "Sword of Doom."
> 
> One of the things that hasn't been addressed in "Delayed Sword" is how you address the body momentum that accompanies the grab. The reasons for grabs initially are intimidation and limited control, therefore they don't take place in a sterile environment without significant contact. I teach this technique as a hammering heel palm driving against the body forcing you back, followed by a seizing of the hand to the clothing. Therefore in the assault you are struck in the chest, driven backwards, and then seized with the possibility of additional attacks.
> 
> ...


 

I think that Doc's analysis of the attack is right on.  What good is knowing a self defense technique if you do not understand the nature of the attack?

If I understand correctly, Doc serves warrants.  What that means is that he is "grabbing" people in some fashion every day that he works.  So, the lessons learned are real and not imaginative nor dojo simulated.

Jim


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## Doc (Jul 14, 2007)

Jim Hanna said:


> I think that Doc's analysis of the attack is right on.  What good is knowing a self defense technique if you do not understand the nature of the attack?
> 
> If I understand correctly, Doc serves warrants.  What that means is that he is "grabbing" people in some fashion every day that he works.  So, the lessons learned are real and not imaginative nor dojo simulated.
> 
> Jim


We call it "gogetems" for fugitive warrants. Mr. Parker and I spent a great deal of time on the "Psychology and Physiology of Confrontation" component. It is imperative in designing any self-defense model, that before you began working on the defense, you meticulously analyze the attack physically, as well as the mental and emotional intent of the attacker. Only with a clear understanding of the perameters of the attack, can you then begin the process to design a functional default technique sequence to teach from.

Mr. Parker was fascinated by law enforcement and began by teaching the Utah Highway Patrol. I believe, among other things, that my status as a street cop induced him to play with me in a lot of areas. He loved everything about it. He had handcuffs he would play with, batons, (straight and side handle) tons of guns long and short, and wanted to apply Kenpo to every aspect of the job.

Stay safe Jim.


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## Hand Sword (Jul 15, 2007)

That would be a treat indeed! Just sit back and watch Mr. Parker go off into his own thoughts and start "playing around" with stuff.


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## Doc (Jul 16, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> That would be a treat indeed! Just sit back and watch Mr. Parker go off into his own thoughts and start "playing around" with stuff.



Everyday for me.


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