# Big schools, small standards



## J. Pickard

So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools. 
So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


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## Steve

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


Check out your local Gracie Barra BJJ schools, and I bet they have 300 students or more, and also maintain high standards.  Gracie Barra is an organization that has managed to embrace the McDojo business practices without compromising standards.  In some ways, you could say that standardization has improved their curriculum and actually strengthened their business model.


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## J. Pickard

Steve said:


> Check out your local Gracie Barra BJJ schools, and I bet they have 300 students or more, and also maintain high standards.  Gracie Barra is an organization that has managed to embrace the McDojo business practices without compromising standards.  In some ways, you could say that standardization has improved their curriculum and actually strengthened their business model.


I should have specified that I only visited Karate and TKD schools. I actually train at a Gracie BJJ school twice a week and they have about 100 students and very high standards, but they are very guarded and don't want to talk shop with me. They were hesitant to let me train with them at first when I told them I ran a martial arts school myself but once they saw I just wanted to train and learn something new they were cool with it as long as I didn't do anything to promote my school while I was at theirs which is totally fair and understandable.


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## frank raud

J. Pickard said:


> I should have specified that I only visited Karate and TKD schools. I actually train at a Gracie BJJ school twice a week and they have about 100 students and very high standards, but they are very guarded and don't want to talk shop with me. They were hesitant to let me train with them at first when I told them I ran a martial arts school myself but once they saw I just wanted to train and learn something new they were cool with it as long as I didn't do anything to promote my school while I was at theirs which is totally fair and understandable.


Too far away from you, I'm sure, but Northern Karate in Toronto maintains high standards despite having an estimated 10,000 students in its various schools   NKS Tradition | Northern Karate Schools   I have attended multiple seminars over the last thirty years where Northern Karate students and senseis have attended, always been impressed by them.


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## J. Pickard

frank raud said:


> Too far away from you, I'm sure, but Northern Karate in Toronto maintains high standards despite having an estimated 10,000 students in its various schools   NKS Tradition | Northern Karate Schools   I have attended multiple seminars over the last thirty years where Northern Karate students and senseis have attended, always been impressed by them.


How many students per school though? I've seen a lot of greater organizations with thousands of students with high standards but most of their schools were hobby schools with no more than 100 students per school on the high end, and one with 12 that taught out of a church. If they have a lot of students per school I may be interested in talking with them.


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## Flying Crane

In my opinion, the larger the student body, the more difficult it becomes to maintain high standards.  Even 30 or so students in a class together seems like quite a lot to me.  I would be much more comfortable with my ability to maintain standards teaching a dozen or fewer.


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## frank raud

J. Pickard said:


> How many students per school though? I've seen a lot of greater organizations with thousands of students with high standards but most of their schools were hobby schools with no more than 100 students per school on the high end, and one with 12 that taught out of a church. If they have a lot of students per school I may be interested in talking with them.


I obviously don't have an exact breakdown, but their website says 15 schools in the Toronto area and "several" international schools. If we assume 20 schools in total, that's an average of 500 students per school.


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## Steve

If the standards are measurable and objective, and folks who engage in the training are rewarded by successfully applying skills in context, rank stops being such a huge motivator.  In BJJ, it's very common for people to actually NOT want to get promoted, due to the responsibilities and expectations (some self imposed) that come with each belt promotion.

But in BJJ, folks are generally motivated by being able to apply skills in context (success in competition directly or success sparring in a school where standards are calibrated by robust participation in competition).

I am not surprised at all to learn that CMA schools that do not apply skills routinely have trouble maintaining standards.

Disclaimer, this isn't to suggest that the above is unique to BJJ.  Any school where people are learning purpose driven skills that they actually use will see similar results.


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## Wing Woo Gar

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


300?! Wow! I’ve never even had 40. If I have 16 at a time in one class it’s a miracle. I do live in a very small community however.


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## dvcochran

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


This is a big, yet fairly common question. 
The short answer is no, I do not believe it is realistic to feel every person in a group that large is going to work out at a super high level. If you compare you class/school to a high school football team for example, there will always be 1st, 2nd, 3rd string players. There will always be people who are just more physically capable. This in no way means the 'less capable' people should not participate. Quite the opposite. 
One of the biggest for any instructor is to know how/when to push a person. This also is different for most people. 

Using myself as the example; physically I can only do a fraction of what I used to do. But I can still teach kids and adults to the upper levels of AAU and Olympic sparring and poomsae competition. Again, this level of competition is not for everyone. 

Holding the standard high is an imperative. This is extremely important for the people who can reach the highest heights. But to believe everyone is going to reach the same heights is a recipe for failure and disappointment on both sides of the teaching/learning equation.


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## Mider

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


Sounds like a McDojo, too bad many in here will say they’re not.  There’s a few good instructors I’d love to meet who sacrifice money for quality


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## Mider

Steve said:


> Check out your local Gracie Barra BJJ schools, and I bet they have 300 students or more, and also maintain high standards.  Gracie Barra is an organization that has managed to embrace the McDojo business practices without compromising standards.  In some ways, you could say that standardization has improved their curriculum and actually strengthened their business model.


300 plus? That’s hard to believe....


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## bill miller

I feel that, for a school to grow large, and still maintain a high quality, they would have to start small, and cultivate good, skilled instructors and/or assistant instructors, and gradually grow. Just my thoughts


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## Wing Woo Gar

Mider said:


> Sounds like a McDojo, too bad many in here will say they’re not.  There’s a few good instructors I’d love to meet who sacrifice money for quality


Like who? Any CMA?


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## Wing Woo Gar

Mider said:


> Sounds like a McDojo, too bad many in here will say they’re not.  There’s a few good instructors I’d love to meet who sacrifice money for quality


Let me clarify, who are these instructors you would like to meet?


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## Mider

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Let me clarify, who are these instructors you would like to meet?


Don’t worry bout it


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## Mider

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Like who? Any CMA?


Idk if CMA and Silat counts but sure


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## Wing Woo Gar

Mider said:


> Don’t worry bout it


Ok. Just curious.


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## angelariz

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


I only run classes with 5 or less people. Obviously I do not make much money but people that come to train get trained to my standard. So I will never be a "successful " gym but the people leave with my best efforts to train them to defend themselves.


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## J. Pickard

angelariz said:


> I only run classes with 5 or less people. Obviously I do not make much money but people that come to train get trained to my standard. So I will never be a "successful " gym but the people leave with my best efforts to train them to defend themselves.


Our school was previously run for 27 years as a "for profit business" but the owner worked a very well paid full time job besides running the school so 100% of the school's income went to paying bills to keep the doors open. For that time we never had more than 30 or so students max with about 8-10 on the floor at any given time (broken up by age). We had very high standards during this 27ish years to the point that many students would go a year or more without testing for the next rank because they just weren't putting in the effort to make changes. Our rule has always been that you don't have to be gifted or be an A+ student but you have to at least make noticeable measurable changes based on the feedback given by the instructor. If those changes weren't made then you didn't test so a lot of our 10 years and up age group don't last more than a year because they can go to the school 12 miles away and literally just pay $40 for a new belt every 2-3 months. I took over 3 years ago as the owner and head instructor and want to try to run the school as a successful business while maintaining our standards but for every one student that actually tries it seems like 4-5 quit because they can get the belt at the "Taekwondo" daycare on the other side of town. This is not an exageration, I had a mom of a 12 and 14 year old ask me why her 12 year old daughter was eligible to test in 2 days but her son wasn't. Her 14 year old son puts in no effort, clearly doesn't want to be there and is always disruptive to the point of having to send him off the floor frequently during class. When I (as tactfully and respectfully as possible) told her this and that we need to see changes made she actually said, and this quote will forever be burned into my memory "well  the *name redacted* taekwondo school on the south side gives the students new belts every 3 months. If its just a matter of payment I have the money." It really seams like this is how the "business" of MA is run.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Steve said:


> Check out your local Gracie Barra BJJ schools, and I bet they have 300 students or more, and also maintain high standards.


It's unfair to compare a striking art school with a grappling art school. When a striking art student is still punching into the thin air, the grappling art students  already wrestle with their opponents on the mat.

In striking art, sometime you think you have but you truly don't have. In grappling art, 5 rounds of match can truly tell whether you have or not.

Old saying said, "三年拳不如当年跤 - 3 years of striking art training cannot match with 1 year of grappling art training".


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## Flying Crane

J. Pickard said:


> Our school was previously run for 27 years as a "for profit business" but the owner worked a very well paid full time job besides running the school so 100% of the school's income went to paying bills to keep the doors open. For that time we never had more than 30 or so students max with about 8-10 on the floor at any given time (broken up by age). We had very high standards during this 27ish years to the point that many students would go a year or more without testing for the next rank because they just weren't putting in the effort to make changes. Our rule has always been that you don't have to be gifted or be an A+ student but you have to at least make noticeable measurable changes based on the feedback given by the instructor. If those changes weren't made then you didn't test so a lot of our 10 years and up age group don't last more than a year because they can go to the school 12 miles away and literally just pay $40 for a new belt every 2-3 months. I took over 3 years ago as the owner and head instructor and want to try to run the school as a successful business while maintaining our standards but for every one student that actually tries it seems like 4-5 quit because they can get the belt at the "Taekwondo" daycare on the other side of town. This is not an exageration, I had a mom of a 12 and 14 year old ask me why her 12 year old daughter was eligible to test in 2 days but her son wasn't. Her 14 year old son puts in no effort, clearly doesn't want to be there and is always disruptive to the point of having to send him off the floor frequently during class. When I (as tactfully and respectfully as possible) told her this and that we need to see changes made she actually said, and this quote will forever be burned into my memory "well  the *name redacted* taekwondo school on the south side gives the students new belts every 3 months. If its just a matter of payment I have the money." It really seams like this is how the "business" of MA is run.


I think you should stick to your standards and aim for breaking even on costs.  It is easy and tempting to give in to the financials.  You may need to keep a day job and keep this just something you do for the love of it.  Maybe eventually you make some pocket money.  That’s ok.


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## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> I am not surprised at all to learn that CMA schools that do not apply skills routinely have trouble maintaining standards.


Where did that come from? Admittedly I have a couple on ignore, but I didn't see anyone even mention CMA before you.

But in response, CMA schools that do apply skills routinely, have few students, and I'm ok with that..... mostly why a lot of CMA schools I have been to are small. Much of why you don't see many around and many do not advertise much. The only large one, and it is only large due to the number of schools it has worldwide, that appears to apply skills routinely is YMAA


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## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> Where did that come from? Admittedly I have a couple on ignore, but I didn't see anyone even mention CMA before you.
> 
> But in response, CMA schools that do apply skills routinely, have few students, and I'm ok with that..... mostly why a lot of CMA schools I have been to are small. Much of why you don't see many around and many do not advertise much. The only large one, and it is only large due to the number of schools it has worldwide, that appears to apply skills routinely is YMAA


Someone  mentioned having trouble maintaining standards with large classes.  He does some kind of CMA. I agree that when you don’t have a real way to use the skills, it’s going to be hard to maintain standards. 

This isn’t a knock on CMA.  There are a lot of CMA that don’t have that problem .  it’s a knock on lack of application, which happens all over the place.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Steve said:


> Someone  mentioned having trouble maintaining standards with large classes.  He does some kind of CMA. I agree that when you don’t have a real way to use the skills, it’s going to be hard to maintain standards.
> 
> This isn’t a knock on CMA.  There are a lot of CMA that don’t have that problem .  it’s a knock on lack of application, which happens all over the place.


I remember my Sifu telling me to bring a mouth guard and cup to class when I finally got invited to the late class. The first night I watched guys go 2 vs 1 for 1 minute rounds. No rules, but the Sifu gave verbal instruction during each round and was very much in control of the match. People were bloodied and knocked down repeatedly. Does that count as application? Is that not a real way to use the skills? Would I need to kick someone’s knee or air choke them to prove that I can do it? Exactly how does one practice application of such things? Im not sure what you mean when you say this, perhaps you could elaborate for me. if I am misunderstanding you, please forgive me.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Xue Sheng said:


> Where did that come from? Admittedly I have a couple on ignore, but I didn't see anyone even mention CMA before you.
> 
> But in response, CMA schools that do apply skills routinely, have few students, and I'm ok with that..... mostly why a lot of CMA schools I have been to are small. Much of why you don't see many around and many do not advertise much. The only large one, and it is only large due to the number of schools it has worldwide, that appears to apply skills routinely is YMAA


Not many people want to do CMA training. Hard work with no rank or patches on a neat uniform isn’t very attractive to most folks out shopping for a dojo. Plus, you know cultish and secretive CMA is. no place for kids.


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## Oily Dragon

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old saying said, "三年拳不如当年跤 - 3 years of striking art training cannot match with 1 year of grappling art training".


That doesn't look right...too wordy to be an "old saying".


Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's unfair to compare a striking art school with a grappling art school. When a striking art student is still punching into the thin air, the grappling art students  already wrestle with their opponents on the mat.
> 
> In striking art, sometime you think you have but you truly don't have. In grappling art, 5 rounds of match can truly tell whether you have or not.
> 
> Old saying said, "三年拳不如当年跤 - 3 years of striking art training cannot match with 1 year of grappling art training".


I agreed with your whole post, and that old saying, but I think you just made that up because it sounds right.

I also think a lot of white belt grapplers would get clobbered by just about anybody.

Besides, most CMA are not striking or grappling schools.  They are both.


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## Oily Dragon

Steve said:


> Someone  mentioned having trouble maintaining standards with large classes.  He does some kind of CMA. I agree that when you don’t have a real way to use the skills, it’s going to be hard to maintain standards.
> 
> This isn’t a knock on CMA.  There are a lot of CMA that don’t have that problem .  it’s a knock on lack of application, which happens all over the place.


It's not even about application, if you ask me.  It's as simple as sweat and tears, and lack of physical discipline.  That's what all the old school Chinese masters had (there are pics) and what a lot of modern "Kung Fu masters" lack (there is video).

People want the skills, but they rarely are willing to do the work required.  I think all arts have this barrier to success.  Learning a technique or a form full of them _isn't the work_, everything after is.

Bob Ross made a thousand happy trees before he got any good at one.

What good is technique or application if you're physically undisciplined?  Or mentally? Not very.

Sadly, I do agree that certain people make a lot of money from these poor souls, the ones who are willing to take the easy way.

My standards for CMA?  I can't count the number of nights I thought my training was going to kill me one way or another, so if you feel that most classes, you're probably in a decent school.


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## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> Someone  mentioned having trouble maintaining standards with large classes.  He does some kind of CMA. I agree that when you don’t have a real way to use the skills, it’s going to be hard to maintain standards.
> 
> This isn’t a knock on CMA.  There are a lot of CMA that don’t have that problem .  it’s a knock on lack of application, which happens all over the place.



No offense taken, I was just wondering where the CMA thing came from, since it was not a CMA style in the OP

Problem with a lot of CMA is it can look nice and/or impressive due to various styles and their forms. Also a lot of people only think of CMA as what they see in Modern Wushu (form only). This brings in a lot of people who have no interest in the MA of it or the don't really understand MA at all. This is why Taijiquan groups can be large, and Xingyiquan schools, if you can find one, are very small. Also why Taijiquan is pretty much dead as a martial art. It is also why you see CMA schools teaching modern wushu (forms only) may teach Sanda for the martial arts. And the Sanda class is always smaller than the Modern Wushu class.


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## Xue Sheng

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Not many people want to do CMA training. Hard work with no rank or patches on a neat uniform isn’t very attractive to most folks out shopping for a dojo. Plus, you know cultish and secretive CMA is. no place for kids.



Actually a lot of space for kids if you are teaching modern wushu. A friend of mine has a CMA school and has a group of kids that he teaches the various form, he also teaches Sanda as well. He (not Chinese) spent several years training in China and is also very good at, and loves, what he does. He is, IMO, a martial artist to the core. He has trained multiple styles, Modern Wushu, Taijiquan, Sanda, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Kyokushin, etc. However I don't believe he is doing this to make anything more effective, he has done it, and does it, because he absolutely loves martial arts. He probably has the biggest CMA school in my area, but still considerably smaller than virtual any TKD school you can find. He loves what he does and is a very positive influence to the kids that train with him. And he does had a standard that he adheres to. It is likely the difficulty of the forms and that standard that keeps his school at the size it is. Also, his school appears to be the one where the Chinese community sends their kids. But with that said he also has a JKD group there, and pre pandemic there was a Japanese group holding classes there as well. And of course, as I mentioned, Sanda, both kids and an adult class


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## hoshin1600

While I enjoy reading others posts, no one is addressing the issue.
Is it possible to run a large successful business and still maintain standards? The answer is yes. I feel quality is an absolute necessity if you want to be a larger school with any kind of longevity.
The problem is that there are three aspects.
 1, it's a business. Run it as such. Most MA guys don't know a darn thing about doing that.
2, are you a good martial artist that meets the community standards that qualify as " good"   everyone thinks they are good. Chances are more likely your not.
3, teaching and doing are TOTALY separate issues. Teaching is a skill and needs to be honed and refined. Teaching a single person or small group is very different than teaching a large group and teaching a large school is even more difficult. You can't do it by yourself. Which brings us back to #1. It's a business.  

So going back to the question.  yes it can be done, but the odds are stacked against you. I would also add that 1 out of 10 people will ever be any good at martial arts. So increasing the sample size decreases the percentage of those who will excel. The challenge then becomes how to grow a core group with a lot of fringes.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Xue Sheng said:


> No offense taken, I was just wondering where the CMA thing came from, since it was not a CMA style in the OP
> 
> Problem with a lot of CMA is it can look nice and/or impressive due to various styles and their forms. Also a lot of people only think of CMA as what they see in Modern Wushu (form only). This brings in a lot of people who have no interest in the MA of it or the don't really understand MA at all. This is why Taijiquan groups can be large, and Xingyiquan schools, if you can find one, are very small. Also why Taijiquan is pretty much dead as a martial art. It is also why you see CMA schools teaching modern wushu (forms only) may teach Sanda for the martial arts. And the Sanda class is always smaller than the Modern Wushu class.


We are the only school I have found that teaches Tai chi in its martial aspect . Most people only teach it in one direction, are off balance, don’t understand the transitions, or are collapsed, etc. I could go on and on.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually a lot of space for kids if you are teaching modern wushu. A friend of mine has a CMA school and has a group of kids that he teaches the various form, he also teaches Sanda as well. He (not Chinese) spent several years training in China and is also very good at, and loves, what he does. He is, IMO, a martial artist to the core. He has trained multiple styles, Modern Wushu, Taijiquan, Sanda, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Kyokushin, etc. However I don't believe he is doing this to make anything more effective, he has done it, and does it, because he absolutely loves martial arts. He probably has the biggest CMA school in my area, but still considerably smaller than virtual any TKD school you can find. He loves what he does and is a very positive influence to the kids that train with him. And he does had a standard that he adheres to. It is likely the difficulty of the forms and that standard that keeps his school at the size it is. Also, his school appears to be the one where the Chinese community sends their kids. But with that said he also has a JKD group there, and pre pandemic there was a Japanese group holding classes there as well. And of course, as I mentioned, Sanda, both kids and an adult class


I should say that I have made exceptions for teens, but only if the parent trains with them, I’m not interested in babysitting. Nothing wrong with training kids, I just don’t want to.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually a lot of space for kids if you are teaching modern wushu. A friend of mine has a CMA school and has a group of kids that he teaches the various form, he also teaches Sanda as well. He (not Chinese) spent several years training in China and is also very good at, and loves, what he does. He is, IMO, a martial artist to the core. He has trained multiple styles, Modern Wushu, Taijiquan, Sanda, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Kyokushin, etc. However I don't believe he is doing this to make anything more effective, he has done it, and does it, because he absolutely loves martial arts. He probably has the biggest CMA school in my area, but still considerably smaller than virtual any TKD school you can find. He loves what he does and is a very positive influence to the kids that train with him. And he does had a standard that he adheres to. It is likely the difficulty of the forms and that standard that keeps his school at the size it is. Also, his school appears to be the one where the Chinese community sends their kids. But with that said he also has a JKD group there, and pre pandemic there was a Japanese group holding classes there as well. And of course, as I mentioned, Sanda, both kids and an adult class


I suppose I could have a very large kids class if all the parents that have asked me about it actually brought their kids, personally that sounds like the third layer of hell. Maybe It’s because there were never children in the gym when I was training, my teachers did not teach kids either.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

hoshin1600 said:


> While I enjoy reading others posts, no one is addressing the issue.
> Is it possible to run a large successful business and still maintain standards? The answer is yes. I feel quality is an absolute necessity if you want to be a larger school with any kind of longevity.
> The problem is that there are three aspects.
> 1, it's a business. Run it as such. Most MA guys don't know a darn thing about doing that.
> 2, are you a good martial artist that meets the community standards that qualify as " good"   everyone thinks they are good. Chances are more likely your not.
> 3, teaching and doing are TOTALY separate issues. Teaching is a skill and needs to be honed and refined. Teaching a single person or small group is very different than teaching a large group and teaching a large school is even more difficult. You can't do it by yourself. Which brings us back to #1. It's a business.
> 
> So going back to the question.  yes it can be done, but the odds are stacked against you. I would also add that 1 out of 10 people will ever be any good at martial arts. So increasing the sample size decreases the percentage of those who will excel. The challenge then becomes how to grow a core group with a lot of fringes.


Much of what you say here makes sense. Teaching is not doing. I never had intention to teach, it means you train more alone and that means missing out on some of the group dynamic. I am lucky that most of the guys I came up with are supportive and come to my class even though they are every bit my equals. That there are at least 7 of us that are qualified and able to teach. All of us are around 50 years old and have professional jobs and some have kids. We never have had a business sense about the training, the goal always being to train as much and as hard as possible. We barely broke even most months. The standards are very high. The culture of our gym has always been centered on striving for maximum personal potential. I have said before that if we couldn’t afford dues, the Sifu had us work at his house mucking out horse stalls and the like In exchange for training. That, by any standard, is not a lucrative business model. I have always felt that students received the very highest standard in training, for the very lowest amount of money. The only thing you said that I disagree with is that 1 in 10 people become skilled. I would say it’s more like 1 in 40.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I should say that I have made exceptions for teens, but only if the parent trains with them, I’m not interested in babysitting. Nothing wrong with training kids, I just don’t want to.



He's not baby sitting...he's training them. Youngest looks like he is between 10 and 12


----------



## Xue Sheng

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I suppose I could have a very large kids class if all the parents that have asked me about it actually brought their kids, personally that sounds like the third layer of hell. Maybe It’s because there were never children in the gym when I was training, my teachers did not teach kids either.



1972, Japanese Jujutsu, kids class. We spared, we threw each other on the floor, we got hurst. No mats, no protective gear and fencing foils and fencing masks covered on entire wall.

Can't teach that was these days, but you can have a kids class that is not baby sitting. But you will not have the numbers you see at many TKD schools


----------



## drop bear

hoshin1600 said:


> While I enjoy reading others posts, no one is addressing the issue.
> Is it possible to run a large successful business and still maintain standards? The answer is yes. I feel quality is an absolute necessity if you want to be a larger school with any kind of longevity.
> The problem is that there are three aspects.
> 1, it's a business. Run it as such. Most MA guys don't know a darn thing about doing that.
> 2, are you a good martial artist that meets the community standards that qualify as " good"   everyone thinks they are good. Chances are more likely your not.
> 3, teaching and doing are TOTALY separate issues. Teaching is a skill and needs to be honed and refined. Teaching a single person or small group is very different than teaching a large group and teaching a large school is even more difficult. You can't do it by yourself. Which brings us back to #1. It's a business.
> 
> So going back to the question.  yes it can be done, but the odds are stacked against you. I would also add that 1 out of 10 people will ever be any good at martial arts. So increasing the sample size decreases the percentage of those who will excel. The challenge then becomes how to grow a core group with a lot of fringes.



I bet there are some bigger kyokashin schools that turn out quality guys.


----------



## hoshin1600

One question people need to ask is why do some schools hand out belts like a participation award.
I feel the answer is because they are weak in the three criteria I laid out. 
As a business you need to provide a value to your customer. If you lack that, I can see trying to keep students through belts.
School owners are afraid to lose students because they lack other value in their business model. This is the equivalent as a retailer constantly putting everything on sale and trying to be the lowest price. Low price was the Walmart model but good luck trying to sell lower than Walmart. Low price is a race to the bottom. Handing out belts faster than anyone else is not a winning strategy. It just means your a weak business owner. Provide other services of value. One local dojo has a small bus that picks up kids at their school. This allows earlier class schedule / = more classes per day and parents like the convenience.  Have good customer service.
My son did judo for a time. It's a large school and the service is horrible.  The desk person is incompetent and the 8 to 11 yo class has about 30 kids. They did have 3 or 4 instructors for the class which is good but even after 3 months the teachers didn't know half of the kids names. The assistants didn't really know how to teach. New students were just put into the normal class and expected to just know what was going on. Never shown how to break fall or roll, how to tie the belt nothing. Sign up , pay money and get in line for class.
As a side note this is a quality school with high standards and everyone in the city knows that. But if you can't keep up you fall out and the owner doesn't care. 
He only stays afloat and is a large school because MMA is so popular and most don't know any better,  and they teach judo, mma and bjj.


----------



## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> I bet there are some bigger kyokashin schools that turn out quality guys.


There are good schools all over. I grew up doing Uechi and there are many large schools. Some schools during the 90's had 800 students. But that's not normal. Its rare.  
My point is that most businesses go out of buisness in the first year most others within 5 years. Why would MA schools be any different? 
Most last because the owners do it out of passion and put more money into it than they get out.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Oily Dragon said:


> That doesn't look right...too wordy to be an "old saying".
> 
> I agreed with your whole post, and that old saying, but I think you just made that up because it sounds right.


If striking art starts sparring training on day one, there won't be any difference between striking art and grappling art.

You can google "三年拳不如当年跤" and then translate into English.



			三年拳不如当年跤 - Google Search


----------



## Xue Sheng

Oily Dragon said:


> That doesn't look right...too wordy to be an "old saying".


I can say I've never heard that one before....and I AM old


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Xue Sheng said:


> I can say I've never heard that one before....and I AM old







__





						三年拳不如当年跤 - 搜索结果 - 知乎
					

知乎，中文互联网高质量的问答社区和创作者聚集的原创内容平台，于 2011 年 1 月正式上线，以「让人们更好的分享知识、经验和见解，找到自己的解答」为品牌使命。知乎凭借认真、专业、友善的社区氛围、独特的产品机制以及结构化和易获得的优质内容，聚集了中文互联网科技、商业、影视、时尚、文化等领域最具创造力的人群，已成为综合性、全品类、在诸多领域具有关键影响力的知识分享社区和创作者聚集的原创内容平台，建立起了以社区驱动的内容变现商业模式。




					www.zhihu.com
				




大多数人练一年跤能轻松把人摔倒，练三年拳能打赢却很难把人迅速KO。这两种打起来，拳不能迅速KO跤，那就很容易被练跤的近身，拉入缠斗状态，拳脚难以发挥，进而摔倒，那基本上就输了；

Translate:

Most people after 1 year of grappling art training can take down their opponents. Most people after 3 years of striking art training may still have hard time to knock down their opponents. If you can't knock down your opponent, after a clinch has established, your opponent can take you down.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kung Fu Wang said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 三年拳不如当年跤 - 搜索结果 - 知乎
> 
> 
> 知乎，中文互联网高质量的问答社区和创作者聚集的原创内容平台，于 2011 年 1 月正式上线，以「让人们更好的分享知识、经验和见解，找到自己的解答」为品牌使命。知乎凭借认真、专业、友善的社区氛围、独特的产品机制以及结构化和易获得的优质内容，聚集了中文互联网科技、商业、影视、时尚、文化等领域最具创造力的人群，已成为综合性、全品类、在诸多领域具有关键影响力的知识分享社区和创作者聚集的原创内容平台，建立起了以社区驱动的内容变现商业模式。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.zhihu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 大多数人练一年跤能轻松把人摔倒，练三年拳能打赢却很难把人迅速KO。这两种打起来，拳不能迅速KO跤，那就很容易被练跤的近身，拉入缠斗状态，拳脚难以发挥，进而摔倒，那基本上就输了；
> 
> Translate:
> 
> Most people after 1 year of grappling art training can take down their opponents. Most people after 3 years of striking art training may still have hard time to knock down their opponents. If you can't knock down your opponent, after a clinch has established, your opponent can take you down.


So…somebody in China wrote that on a website in Chinese, but it’s not any kind of ancient wisdom statement…

I don’t buy it as any kind of assumption.  Ones mileage may vary.


----------



## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I suppose I could have a very large kids class if all the parents that have asked me about it actually brought their kids, personally that sounds like the third layer of hell. Maybe It’s because there were never children in the gym when I was training, my teachers did not teach kids either.


I was 13 when I began my training, and my teacher made an exception for me.  He didn’t normally accept youth.  I guess I impressed him that I called him myself to inquire about the class, instead of having my mom call for me. 

So on some level I feel like I owe youth of that age a chance, if I feel they are up for it.  But I would insist that a parent or other family member age 18 or older would need to attend every class, even if they don’t participate themselves.  There is just way too much stuff around adults acting inappropriately around kids, I want for there to be zero chance of someone making an accusation.


----------



## hoshin1600

Flying Crane said:


> I was 13 when I began my training, and my teacher made an exception for me.  He didn’t normally accept youth.  I guess I impressed him that I called him myself to inquire about the class, instead of having my mom call for me.
> 
> So on some level I feel like I owe youth of that age a chance, if I feel they are up for it.  But I would insist that a parent or other family member age 18 or older would need to attend every class, even if they don’t participate themselves.  There is just way too much stuff around adults acting inappropriately around kids, I want for there to be zero chance of someone making an accusation.


Technology, 
Get a camera system and broadcast your classes on your web sight for parents to view what's going on.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Xue Sheng said:


> He's not baby sitting...he's training them. Youngest looks like he is between 10 and 12


I’m not suggesting that he is babysitting. I am referring to the relatively large number of people that have approached me about training their child because they lack the ability to discipline their own progeny. I’m not interested in engaging people in this context. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with it, it just isn’t even close to my cup of tea.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> I was 13 when I began my training, and my teacher made an exception for me.  He didn’t normally accept youth.  I guess I impressed him that I called him myself to inquire about the class, instead of having my mom call for me.
> 
> So on some level I feel like I owe youth of that age a chance, if I feel they are up for it.  But I would insist that a parent or other family member age 18 or older would need to attend every class, even if they don’t participate themselves.  There is just way too much stuff around adults acting inappropriately around kids, I want for there to be zero chance of someone making an accusation.


That is a very valid statement. I never even considered the possibility of an accusation. I shall add it to my list of excuses and exemptions. I don’t say that I would make exceptions in the case of youth with unusual personality or ability, but it’s possible if the stars aligned. Or if the parent trains alongside. I do not allow spectators.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

hoshin1600 said:


> Technology,
> Get a camera system and broadcast your classes on your web sight for parents to view what's going on.


Ugh. The mere thought that such a thing is necessary is repugnant. I get it but ugh.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If striking art starts sparring training on day one, there won't be any difference between striking art and grappling art.
> 
> You can google "三年拳不如当年跤" and then translate into English.
> 
> 
> 
> 三年拳不如当年跤 - Google Search


Are you growing your own stuff or do you get it in the dispensary?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually a lot of space for kids if you are teaching modern wushu. A friend of mine has a CMA school and has a group of kids that he teaches the various form, he also teaches Sanda as well. He (not Chinese) spent several years training in China and is also very good at, and loves, what he does. He is, IMO, a martial artist to the core. He has trained multiple styles, Modern Wushu, Taijiquan, Sanda, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Kyokushin, etc. However I don't believe he is doing this to make anything more effective, he has done it, and does it, because he absolutely loves martial arts. He probably has the biggest CMA school in my area, but still considerably smaller than virtual any TKD school you can find. He loves what he does and is a very positive influence to the kids that train with him. And he does had a standard that he adheres to. It is likely the difficulty of the forms and that standard that keeps his school at the size it is. Also, his school appears to be the one where the Chinese community sends their kids. But with that said he also has a JKD group there, and pre pandemic there was a Japanese group holding classes there as well. And of course, as I mentioned, Sanda, both kids and an adult class


What do you call modern wushu? Such a loaded word now. I’m going to guess my answer is not. I don’t speak Cantonese so I am way out of my depth in that regard.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Kung Fu Wang said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 三年拳不如当年跤 - 搜索结果 - 知乎
> 
> 
> 知乎，中文互联网高质量的问答社区和创作者聚集的原创内容平台，于 2011 年 1 月正式上线，以「让人们更好的分享知识、经验和见解，找到自己的解答」为品牌使命。知乎凭借认真、专业、友善的社区氛围、独特的产品机制以及结构化和易获得的优质内容，聚集了中文互联网科技、商业、影视、时尚、文化等领域最具创造力的人群，已成为综合性、全品类、在诸多领域具有关键影响力的知识分享社区和创作者聚集的原创内容平台，建立起了以社区驱动的内容变现商业模式。
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.zhihu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 大多数人练一年跤能轻松把人摔倒，练三年拳能打赢却很难把人迅速KO。这两种打起来，拳不能迅速KO跤，那就很容易被练跤的近身，拉入缠斗状态，拳脚难以发挥，进而摔倒，那基本上就输了；
> 
> Translate:
> 
> Most people after 1 year of grappling art training can take down their opponents. Most people after 3 years of striking art training may still have hard time to knock down their opponents. If you can't knock down your opponent, after a clinch has established, your opponent can take you down.



From where, and when, does that originate?


----------



## Xue Sheng

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What do you call modern wushu? Such a loaded word now. I’m going to guess my answer is not. I don’t speak Cantonese so I am way out of my depth in that regard.



Wushu is the proper terminology for Traditional Chinese martial arts, Kung Fu came from a misunderstanding in translation. Modern Wushu is the stuff you see in Chinese Martial Arts forms competitions today. A lot of acrobatics, not so much practicality, athletically impressive though


----------



## WaterGal

J. Pickard said:


> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.



In my personal experience, most martial arts schools of any size have poor standards.

However, there is a truth to what you're saying.

Having high standards can limit the size of your school, if you don't have good lesson planning, teaching methodology, instructor training, etc. If it's hard for your students to understand what your standards are or to learn how to meet those standards, then they'll get confused or discouraged or resentful and quit.

If a school sees that this is a limiting factor on their growth, they have a few options. They can settle for being small, they can lower their standards so they're easier for students to meet, or they can do a better job teaching class. Unfortunately, a lot of commercially successful large schools do the second one.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Flying Crane said:


> So…somebody in China wrote that on a website in Chinese, but it’s not any kind of ancient wisdom statement…
> 
> I don’t buy it as any kind of assumption.  Ones mileage may vary.


I have heard that old saying since I was a kid. I don't know where did this saying came from.

The 2nd part of old saying also said:

"一辈子跤不如十年拳"​translate:

"If you train the grappling art all your life, you still cannot match against someone who trains striking art for 10 years."

The reason is simple. After you have developed your knock down power, wrestler will have disadvantage to match against you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have heard this since I was a kid. I don't know where did this saying came from.
> 
> The 2nd part of old saying also said:
> 
> "一辈子跤不如十年拳"​translate:
> 
> "If you train the grappling art all your life, you still cannot match against someone who trains striking art for 10 years."
> 
> The reason is simple. After you have developed your knock down power, wrestler will have disadvantage to match against you.


To me, that whole saying feels backwards.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Gerry Seymour said:


> To me, that whole saying feels backwards.


Why?

When a striker has not yet developed his "knock down power", he has nothing to fight with.

You have to enter the striking range before you can enter the grappling range. If a striker can knock you down in striking range, your grappling skill will be useless.


----------



## geezer

Xue Sheng said:


> From where, and when, does that originate?


Heck, John's been posting various versions of that saying for years. And he's old. And Chinese. And a martial artist ...so it is an old Chinese martial arts saying. So there!


----------



## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That is a very valid statement. I never even considered the possibility of an accusation. I shall add it to my list of excuses and exemptions. I don’t say that I would make exceptions in the case of youth with unusual personality or ability, but it’s possible if the stars aligned. Or if the parent trains alongside. I do not allow spectators.


I hold class outdoors In The park.  I have no control over spectators. But it’s early in the morning, so the crowds are thin.


----------



## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What do you call modern wushu? Such a loaded word now. I’m going to guess my answer is not. I don’t speak Cantonese so I am way out of my depth in that regard.


Modern Wushu was developed by the Chinese government In The 1950s based on older fighting methods.  It is meant to be a performance and competition art based on forms that are more akin to a gymnastics floor routine with martial arts flavor.  It is not meant to be a viable combat method, and is meant to be a Chinese cultural art form.


----------



## Xue Sheng

geezer said:


> Heck, John's been posting various versions of that saying for years. And he's old. And Chinese. And a martial artist ...so it is an old Chinese martial arts saying. So there!


Agreed, I'm not trying to give him a hard time, I'm genuinely curious..... and he may be older..... but I've been here longer...... so I can ask if I wanna


----------



## seasoned

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's unfair to compare a striking art school with a grappling art school. When a striking art student is still punching into the thin air, the grappling art students  already wrestle with their opponents on the mat.
> 
> In striking art, sometime you think you have but you truly don't have. In grappling art, 5 rounds of match can truly tell whether you have or not.
> 
> Old saying said, "三年拳不如当年跤 - 3 years of striking art training cannot match with 1 year of grappling art training".


Another old saying, when in a bar late at night don't take anyone to ground.


----------



## drop bear

seasoned said:


> Another old saying, when in a bar late at night don't take anyone to ground.



But if you stay standing their friend can get behind you and sucker punch you.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Xue Sheng said:


> Agreed, I'm not trying to give him a hard time, I'm genuinely curious..... and he may be older..... but I've been here longer...... so I can ask if I wanna


I have made up some old CMA saying such as "If you lay down on the ground, nobody can throw you", but that one is a true CMA old saying.


----------



## hoshin1600

drop bear said:


> But if you stay standing their friend can get behind you and sucker punch you.


But going to the ground, the friend can kick you in the head.


----------



## dvcochran

J. Pickard said:


> Our school was previously run for 27 years as a "for profit business" but the owner worked a very well paid full time job besides running the school so 100% of the school's income went to paying bills to keep the doors open. For that time we never had more than 30 or so students max with about 8-10 on the floor at any given time (broken up by age). We had very high standards during this 27ish years to the point that many students would go a year or more without testing for the next rank because they just weren't putting in the effort to make changes. Our rule has always been that you don't have to be gifted or be an A+ student but you have to at least make noticeable measurable changes based on the feedback given by the instructor. If those changes weren't made then you didn't test so a lot of our 10 years and up age group don't last more than a year because they can go to the school 12 miles away and literally just pay $40 for a new belt every 2-3 months. I took over 3 years ago as the owner and head instructor and want to try to run the school as a successful business while maintaining our standards but for every one student that actually tries it seems like 4-5 quit because they can get the belt at the "Taekwondo" daycare on the other side of town. This is not an exageration, I had a mom of a 12 and 14 year old ask me why her 12 year old daughter was eligible to test in 2 days but her son wasn't. Her 14 year old son puts in no effort, clearly doesn't want to be there and is always disruptive to the point of having to send him off the floor frequently during class. When I (as tactfully and respectfully as possible) told her this and that we need to see changes made she actually said, and this quote will forever be burned into my memory "well  the *name redacted* taekwondo school on the south side gives the students new belts every 3 months. If its just a matter of payment, I have the money." It really seams like this is how the "business" of MA is run.


I guess it can be tough to process and explain. Since no one here saw the exchange with the parent or have worked out with the kid, it is hard to give absolute advice.

I fully believe a person (instructor) has to be very, very sure their standards are real, attainable, and not overly subjective. A Lot of this can be accomplished through the tournament scene, as well as having experience in more than one style/school/system, or experience in other sports/life experiences, etc... In short, exposure. This, in no way says your current method is wrong. I have no way of knowing that for certain.

Like it or not, everything evolves. This includes martial arts training. This does Not mean sacrificing quality and standard. Honestly, much more the opposite. 
The world has been exposed to the martial arts for some time now. More importantly, the martial arts have been exposed to the world. Because of this exposure, there has been cross pollination with other sports and other styles of training. This has led to refinement and improvement in the teaching model(s). There has also been great improvement in the training tools and training methods. 
To be clear, this has nothing to do with tradition or traditional methods that have withstood the test of time (and to be sure, there are many). In this regard, what I heard in your last post sounded more like a /teacher/teaching issue, not a martial art issue (just being candidly honest). I do not know of any instructor who has/had trying students. It is just the nature of the beast in a service industry. 
My GM often says something along the lines of "I give you the information" and will sometimes just leave it right there. But he is very educated and wise enough to know when a person (kids, struggling adults, etc...) will not understand a statement like that. I suspect your training method may be along this line, which I fully get, but as the instructor you have to be able to translate the statement into something tangible for people who just are not ready to hear it. Yes, that can be very, very tough. 

We are all guilty of heralding our past. Looking back has a way of making things 'shine' a little more. 
To this point, can you honestly say everyone in your 30-person school size were all equally talented? Did all exceeded or did they leave on their own or just be kicked out? I sincerely hope not. 

Some have talked about comparing different styles (striking vs. grappling, etc...). This is just a very hard thing to do across the entire canvas. And frankly, unfair. We teach and hold the standards for our respective school/style and do not throw stones. Period. Easier said than done sometimes. 

When you say, "Our rule has always been that you don't have to be gifted or be an A+ student but you have to at least make noticeable measurable changes based on the feedback given by the instructor." this makes sense to me and I would call this the most common standard out there. But it goes against some of your other comments (I fully understand I am writing based on what you said, not what I have seen). 

If I understand correctly, you have recently taken the helm at your longtime school. A wonderful opportunity. Does this include full ownership and business/financial responsibility/liability? If so, (again, not knowing your background) I suggest you look into sport business training. This can come from your system, local college, business associates, making business connections (CoC, etc...), or just digging in and doing the research and learning on your own. The latter is a hard path. 
One of my favorite sayings: "" That is the way we always done it!" is a recipe for disaster."" 

To be certain, I am not a fan of play time or after school classes for kids. However, depending on your demographics and the desire to be a truly for-profit school, it can be done right and make a ton of money. Plus, it can build the kind of future clientele you want. Or it can drive kids away and they (and others) will never come back. 
I am also not a fan of automatic testing or very, very long testing windows (unless that is just a style's historical model). Automatic testing speaks for itself I believe but very, very long testing windows speaks more to an instructor/school owner issue more often to me. The 'standard' must be felt more than stated in every class. Expectation has to be felt. Not with a presence of fear, but more of anticipation. On top of that, reaching/meeting the standard (or best in a person) has to be drawn out of some people, from areas they may not have even know they had. Man, oh man is that fun and exciting as an instructor/coach! Hell, I am getting excited just talking about it! 
To my comment about business classes, this is a good applicable area. Measuring success by the negatives is historically more accurate and informative. You already have some measurable negatives to use as information. So, what are they telling you? How to use this information to help improve your business model? This is also where the "that's how we always" did it" moniker should indicate a need for possible change. 

I wish you the best with your school. I hope you stay in touch and let us know how it goes. I am here to help in any way I can.


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## dvcochran

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That is a very valid statement. I never even considered the possibility of an accusation. I shall add it to my list of excuses and exemptions. I don’t say that I would make exceptions in the case of youth with unusual personality or ability, but it’s possible if the stars aligned. Or if the parent trains alongside. I do not allow spectators.


My first AAU gold medalist was Mikey Hickerson. He came to the school classified as "severely autistic". Fully withdrawn, not speaking nor looking at anyone. Just a mess. His parents were desperate, very engaged, and willing to try anything. I had taken on several challenging kids, and we already had a program with displaced kids and kids in the system. After several very long discussions with his parents and building a loose plan and expectations I agreed to take him on. Part of the plan was Mikey came to class, no matter what. By far one of the most challenging but rewarding things I have ever done. 
Mikey was never disruptive in class but was very, very, very hard to work with and to engage. I got some hard looks because of Mikey, and even lost some students because of him. 
Very, very slowly Mikey began to come out of his shell. Very long story short, three years later, he was just a normal kid, attending regular school and flourishing. He was very, very good at TKD and very competitive. Great family, great kid. He has a family now and is doing great, living a regular life. 

I say all this to say it is more to do with the instructor's bigger picture model or experience.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Xue Sheng said:


> Wushu is the proper terminology for Traditional Chinese martial arts, Kung Fu came from a misunderstanding in translation. Modern Wushu is the stuff you see in Chinese Martial Arts forms competitions today. A lot of acrobatics, not so much practicality, athletically impressive though


That’s why I said loaded word. So, in the traditional sense, yes I teach wushu gung fu. Martial arts hard work. I do teach some forms which I listed in an earlier post somewhere. I do not teach modern competition Wushu That you see in the olympics. Yes, i agree that while it is athletically impressive and based on traditonal forms, it is not martial arts per se. If I tell people that I teach Wushu gung fu what will they think of? Acrobatics? Or martial arts? Or will they confuse one for the other? I have said before that as people train the forms they start by learning the choreography, then they dance through the forms, then they play through the forms, then they work the forms. The last one can take years. Most of what we see in the Wushu Olympic forms are “light work” meaning that the practitioners try to fly as high as possible. They eschew power and force in favor or speed and lightness. If you hit them, they fly like a kite. It goes opposite to the way I teach which is low stance and deep rooted.


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## Wing Woo Gar

dvcochran said:


> My first AAU gold medalist was Mikey Hickerson. He came to the school classified as "severely autistic". Fully withdrawn, not speaking nor looking at anyone. Just a mess. His parents were desperate, very engaged, and willing to try anything. I had taken on several challenging kids, and we already had a program with displaced kids and kids in the system. After several very long discussions with his parents and building a loose plan and expectations I agreed to take him on. Part of the plan was Mikey came to class, no matter what. By far one of the most challenging but rewarding things I have ever done.
> Mikey was never disruptive in class but was very, very, very hard to work with and to engage. I got some hard looks because of Mikey, and even lost some students because of him.
> Very, very slowly Mikey began to come out of his shell. Very long story short, three years later, he was just a normal kid, attending regular school and flourishing. He was very, very good at TKD and very competitive. Great family, great kid. He has a family now and is doing great, living a regular life.
> 
> I say all this to say it is more to do with the instructor's bigger picture model or experience.


That speaks to your character, good on you!


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> Modern Wushu was developed by the Chinese government In The 1950s based on older fighting methods.  It is meant to be a performance and competition art based on forms that are more akin to a gymnastics floor routine with martial arts flavor.  It is not meant to be a viable combat method, and is meant to be a Chinese cultural art form.


I know what it is, but I am never sure what people mean because it means two very different things that look similar to an untrained eye.


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## Flying Crane

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I know what it is, but I am never sure what people mean because it means two very different things that look similar to an untrained eye.


Yeah, if they simply say “Wushu” then I tend to assume it is Modern Wushu.  If they designated Modern vs. Traditional, it makes it more clear.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, if they simply say “Wushu” then I tend to assume it is Modern Wushu.  If they designated Modern vs. Traditional, it makes it more clear.


Yes my Sifu had a sign out front that said wushu gung fu and Tai Chi Chuan. Paul Gale’s Chinese Martial Arts Association. Wing Woo Gar. That could mean a lot of things to a lot of different people looking for a lot of different thinags.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That speaks to your character, good on you!


My Sifu worked with special olympics for quite a while in the Los Angeles area in the 80s. He often would reference his experiences there when instructing us able bodied sorts. I remember those very humbling experiences with gratitude. They have a valuable teaching of their very own.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, if they simply say “Wushu” then I tend to assume it is Modern Wushu.  If they designated Modern vs. Traditional, it makes it more clear.


We are all on the same page now. This is why I initially responded as I did. We can discuss on a deeper level the more we understand that we are using similar terms, and that we have similar experience. That’s the juice! Thanks guys!


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## Wing Woo Gar

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yes my Sifu had a sign out front that said wushu gung fu and Tai Chi Chuan. Paul Gale’s Chinese Martial Arts Association. Wing Woo Gar. That could mean a lot of things to a lot of different people looking for a lot of different thinags.


I hate this spell check .


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## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> But going to the ground, the friend can kick you in the head.


Not if the floor is lava. Nothing solid to stand on.


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## Wing Woo Gar

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not if the floor is lava. Nothing solid to stand on.


😂


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## angelariz

J. Pickard said:


> Our school was previously run for 27 years as a "for profit business" but the owner worked a very well paid full time job besides running the school so 100% of the school's income went to paying bills to keep the doors open. For that time we never had more than 30 or so students max with about 8-10 on the floor at any given time (broken up by age). We had very high standards during this 27ish years to the point that many students would go a year or more without testing for the next rank because they just weren't putting in the effort to make changes. Our rule has always been that you don't have to be gifted or be an A+ student but you have to at least make noticeable measurable changes based on the feedback given by the instructor. If those changes weren't made then you didn't test so a lot of our 10 years and up age group don't last more than a year because they can go to the school 12 miles away and literally just pay $40 for a new belt every 2-3 months. I took over 3 years ago as the owner and head instructor and want to try to run the school as a successful business while maintaining our standards but for every one student that actually tries it seems like 4-5 quit because they can get the belt at the "Taekwondo" daycare on the other side of town. This is not an exageration, I had a mom of a 12 and 14 year old ask me why her 12 year old daughter was eligible to test in 2 days but her son wasn't. Her 14 year old son puts in no effort, clearly doesn't want to be there and is always disruptive to the point of having to send him off the floor frequently during class. When I (as tactfully and respectfully as possible) told her this and that we need to see changes made she actually said, and this quote will forever be burned into my memory "well  the *name redacted* taekwondo school on the south side gives the students new belts every 3 months. If its just a matter of payment I have the money." It really seams like this is how the "business" of MA is





J. Pickard said:


> Our school was previously run for 27 years as a "for profit business" but the owner worked a very well paid full time job besides running the school so 100% of the school's income went to paying bills to keep the doors open. For that time we never had more than 30 or so students max with about 8-10 on the floor at any given time (broken up by age). We had very high standards during this 27ish years to the point that many students would go a year or more without testing for the next rank because they just weren't putting in the effort to make changes. Our rule has always been that you don't have to be gifted or be an A+ student but you have to at least make noticeable measurable changes based on the feedback given by the instructor. If those changes weren't made then you didn't test so a lot of our 10 years and up age group don't last more than a year because they can go to the school 12 miles away and literally just pay $40 for a new belt every 2-3 months. I took over 3 years ago as the owner and head instructor and want to try to run the school as a successful business while maintaining our standards but for every one student that actually tries it seems like 4-5 quit because they can get the belt at the "Taekwondo" daycare on the other side of town. This is not an exageration, I had a mom of a 12 and 14 year old ask me why her 12 year old daughter was eligible to test in 2 days but her son wasn't. Her 14 year old son puts in no effort, clearly doesn't want to be there and is always disruptive to the point of having to send him off the floor frequently during class. When I (as tactfully and respectfully as possible) told her this and that we need to see changes made she actually said, and this quote will forever be burned into my memory "well  the *name redacted* taekwondo school on the south side gives the students new belts every 3 months. If its just a matter of payment I have the money." It really seams like this is how the "business" of MA is run.


I dont teach children so I do not have to deal with that kind of thing.
When students talk about rank i ask them what belt rank is Mike Tyson, Zab Judah, or Sugar Ray Leonard?
But as I said, I dont make money from teaching. Mostly I teach to have training partners.
If after 3 or 4 years someone stays with me and learns the material I give them an assistant instructor certificate.


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## Ji Yuu

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


My opinion is this: The smaller the class/school, the better learning experience and higher standard. I have a 6th grade student (on a 10 grade scale with 10 being white belt) who can best many black belts from other schools in the area. I teach no more than a 5 students at a time. Obviously, I do not make a living doing this. But I prefer quality of teaching/coaching over quantity of students.


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## Xue Sheng

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not if the floor is lava. Nothing solid to stand on.


But what if it is water mixed with cornstarch.... it's kind of solid


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## AIKIKENJITSU

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


I have been teaching for fifty years. I had a school  in Santa Maria Cal. which was a converted double car garage. It was always jabbed packed with men and women students. I now teach privately at my home studio.
It's difficult to keep high standards wilth 300 plus students. The only way to do that is to have an instructor for each fifty students. Then you must have weekly meetings with them, to see how things are going and that they are teaching the way you want.
I've taught for Al Tracy and other studios. People are taught and they stay, when you make them feel special. To do that, you have to give private lessons to the student. Groups are only for practice.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


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## Steve

hoshin1600 said:


> But going to the ground, the friend can kick you in the head.


Unless they are your friends, in which case they can kick him in the head.


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## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> Unless they are your friends, in which case they can kick him in the head.


I don't know... Years ago a friend of mine told me he was pretty tired, but we all still went out. He also told me that if he gets to sleepy I should hit him in the back of the head.... I did ask him if he remembered who he was talking to...he said yes..... he got tired, told me to hit him in the back of the head...so I did....and then he had the audacity to get mad at me....just because I possibly knocked a few fillings loose


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## Gerry Seymour

Ji Yuu said:


> My opinion is this: The smaller the class/school, the better learning experience and higher standard. I have a 6th grade student (on a 10 grade scale with 10 being white belt) who can best many black belts from other schools in the area. I teach no more than a 5 students at a time. Obviously, I do not make a living doing this. But I prefer quality of teaching/coaching over quantity of students.


I think there's a lower limit to this. There's a lot of advantage in having a variety of training partners. I have done a lot of 1-1 teaching, and I don't think that's anywhere near the best learning environment. As both student and instructor, I've always preferred classes with 10-20 people.


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## Gerry Seymour

Xue Sheng said:


> But what if it is water mixed with cornstarch.... it's kind of solid


Hmm...not sure about kicking from atop (or within) a slurry.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Unless they are your friends, in which case they can kick him in the head.


Groundfighters don't have friends. Duh!


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## hoshin1600

Steve said:


> Unless they are your friends, in which case they can kick him in the head.


Obviously you don't know my friends. They would kick me just for fun.


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## Damien

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


Is it possible? Yes. Easy? Probably not.

It depends on your definition of standards, but let us assume we're talking quality instruction and apply some maths to it. I think it is fair to say than in an hour long class you could teach 20 people and give them all quality instruction and plenty of attention. I did it for years even with grumpy hung over university students!

If you are running your club full time and offering different class times for different schedules you could do 8 classes in a day (2 early morning, 2 at lunch, 4 across the afternoon and evening). That get's you a mix of kids after school, professionals before work or at lunch, and anyone in the evening. Plus anyone else that happens to be available at the other times due to their schedule.

8*20=160 students per day. Most people won't train every day, maybe twice a week. So let's say across 5 days only 20% train every day, the rest just twice. That gives us 32 training every day. The other 128 from each day appear one other day, so across 5 days, times that by 2.5 and we have 320. That give you 360 students, each getting the level of attention as a 20 person class.

Now the difficulty here isn't in keeping up the teaching standards, it is in getting enough students who want to train at each of these different times and having the space for them. Obviously there will be variation around the average for each day, time etc., but it should still be possible to keep up good quality teaching in a class of 30 or more, especially if you have senior students assisting with basics or another instructor. If you're getting too far beyond that you are probably better off having two classes running at once; hence the issue of space.

Online training can free up some of these limitations. It introduces others of course, it's always a balancing act and depends on your and your students aims. Grappling arts will never work online, "art based" martial arts can. Striking arts can teach the basics online, as long as there is also in person contact to pressure test.

So it is possible to have a lot of students and high teaching standards, but you need the right structure and you need to have enough students. Frankly I'm always amazed by the huge class numbers you see in US martial arts schools!

If you're talking standards of students, then it is variable. Not everyone will be a super star. Some people will never get even relatively simple stuff right no matter how many times and how many different ways you explain it. Some people just never develop the body awareness, and that's fine. We should always be catering to a range of abilities and talents. If none of the students are any good, then of course you might want to ask some questions.

A lack of quality is not something that is exclusive to big schools, it happens plenty in small ones too. I guess it is just more noticeable if the school is so big you can't help but know about it. If they are pushing class numbers ever higher and not increasing the number of teachers to match, then you run into a problem.


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## Oily Dragon

Xue Sheng said:


> I can say I've never heard that one before....and I AM old


Old enough to remember Calgon?


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## Oily Dragon

Xue Sheng said:


> But what if it is water mixed with cornstarch.... it's kind of solid


Wet cornstarch is basically quicksand.


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## MrBigglesworth

Xue Sheng said:


> But what if it is water mixed with cornstarch.... it's kind of solid


Better keep moving though 🙂


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## Xue Sheng

Oily Dragon said:


> Old enough to remember Calgon?


Calgon take me away....nope..never heard of it


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## dvcochran

Oily Dragon said:


> Old enough to remember Calgon?


Take me away!!!


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## WaterGal

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> It's difficult to keep high standards wilth 300 plus students. The only way to do that is to have an instructor for each fifty students. Then you must have weekly meetings with them, to see how things are going and that they are teaching the way you want.



Yeah, the way you maintain high standards with a lot of students is by maintaining high standards with your _staff_, which I think is what you're getting at here. 

You need to have a well-organized curriculum. You need to have instructors who you've trained in both _what _and _how _to teach, and then you need to make sure that they're actually doing that. And you need to be organized in your communication with the students, as well, so they know what they need to work on to be successful. All of that gets harder as the school gets bigger.


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## Gerry Seymour

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, the way you maintain high standards with a lot of students is by maintaining high standards with your _staff_, which I think is what you're getting at here.
> 
> You need to have a well-organized curriculum. You need to have instructors who you've trained in both _what _and _how _to teach, and then you need to make sure that they're actually doing that. And you need to be organized in your communication with the students, as well, so they know what they need to work on to be successful. All of that gets harder as the school gets bigger.


I would also argue that one component of having a good staff of instructors is NOT trying to get them to all be copies of the chief instructor. Helping each become best at their own style of teaching is more productive, and has the bonus of fitting a wider range of students' needs.

Of course, there's some grey area in this. You don't want things all willy-nilly, so the overall approach should probably be led mostly by the CI, so things don't get too confusing for students.


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## super saiyan 4

J. Pickard said:


> So lately (past month or two) I have been communicating with and traveling to other martial arts schools that also run as a full time business trying to get some insight into ways to run a business without sacrificing standards and I noticed an unsettling trend. Every school bragged about how they had high standards and every school had between 250-450 students. All but maybe a dozen students per school, to put it bluntly, sucked. They had their floors full but nobody on the floor, not even some of the instructors, had any semblance of good technique. The schools had 6 year old black belts, some with 2 stripes on their belt, they had 3rd dan and 4th dan black belts that couldn't throw a basic round kick without loosing balance, none of them had any focus or semblance of discipline, no effort or power in their forms, their sparring was sloppy and low effort, and many of them didn't have an understanding or ability beyond what I expect from my yellow belts. Conversely there is a Shorin Ryu school in my town that has maybe 80 students at most for all programs (kids, adults, and fitness classes) and they are GOOD! They have white belts that after a month are more skilled than many black belts at these bigger schools. They have way more discipline and focus after a week than the black belts of the larger schools.
> So, Million dollar question: Is it possible to run a school with 300+ students at any given time without *actually sacrificing high standards? *Can I have a school with 300+ students and still have the same or higher standards as the small schools tend to? These big school owners keep telling me it's possible but it is clear that their idea of "high standards" are less than mediocre.


 Just started buisness wide so I cannot say


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## super saiyan 4

Can't say just started business wise


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## dvcochran

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, the way you maintain high standards with a lot of students is by maintaining high standards with your _staff_, which I think is what you're getting at here.
> 
> You need to have a well-organized curriculum. You need to have instructors who you've trained in both _what _and _how _to teach, and then you need to make sure that they're actually doing that. And you need to be organized in your communication with the students, as well, so they know what they need to work on to be successful. All of that gets harder as the school gets bigger.


A school of size has to reach a critical mass; having enough BB's or high-ranking students and/or instructors is a necessary first step. From a startup point of view, this can come in two forms; build the body of trainers through time and promotion or hire BB's from outside your school/system. I hear the latter is done on a regular basis these days, but it just seems weird to me on several levels. On average, the former is going to take +/- 3-years. A reality a startup needs to fully understand. The principal owner must invest some serious time and sweat equity to get the ball rolling. But this is the perfect time to establish the standards and imprint them as the mass grows. 

If there is another way to do this, I would love to hear about it. 

After the critical mass of instructors is created, things can get into a rhythm more like you are describing.


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## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> A school of size has to reach a critical mass; having enough BB's or high-ranking students and/or instructors is a necessary first step. From a startup point of view, this can come in two forms; build the body of trainers through time and promotion or hire BB's from outside your school/system. I hear the latter is done on a regular basis these days, but it just seems weird to me on several levels. On average, the former is going to take +/- 3-years. A reality a startup needs to fully understand. The principal owner must invest some serious time and sweat equity to get the ball rolling. But this is the perfect time to establish the standards and imprint them as the mass grows.
> 
> If there is another way to do this, I would love to hear about it.
> 
> After the critical mass of instructors is created, things can get into a rhythm more like you are describing.


I really think this is part of what kept my primary art so small. It takes most folks about 7-9 years to get to what we consider instructor level (technically possible in under 4 years, but I've never seen a good instructor candidate develop that fast). And we started with a tiny base of students (at two times in our art's history, there has been a single instructor in the world), so nobody to be hired or invited to join the school to help. And it's expensive - need good mats for the falls we take, and a substantial amount of room.


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## Ji Yuu

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think there's a lower limit to this. There's a lot of advantage in having a variety of training partners. I have done a lot of 1-1 teaching, and I don't think that's anywhere near the best learning environment. As both student and instructor, I've always preferred classes with 10-20 people.


I agree with there being a lower limit. I personally would not want more than 10 students unless I have an assistant instructor.


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## Gerry Seymour

Ji Yuu said:


> I agree with there being a lower limit. I personally would not want more than 10 students unless I have an assistant instructor.


I've run classes up to about 25 at a time. That's usually groups of 2-3 (art is primarily grappling), and groups are given assignments to work on (not usually the same for the whole class, because of range of skill levels). They don't need a lot of attention, so a single instructor can handle it. But 10 groups was about the upper limit of what we could fit in the space at the place I started teaching. We could get a few off-mat for striking drills, but there wasn't much space off-mat. I think more than 10 groups (including the folks off-mat) needs another instructor, both because of the time requirement, and because it's difficult to stay positioned to see all of those different groups easily for safety and coaching purposes.

I've been in larger classes (when visiting other dojos), and yeah, they always had help. I suppose more could be done with line drills (kata, traditional striking drills, etc.), if everyone is on the same drill.


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## Ji Yuu

Gerry Seymour said:


> I've run classes up to about 25 at a time. That's usually groups of 2-3 (art is primarily grappling), and groups are given assignments to work on (not usually the same for the whole class, because of range of skill levels). They don't need a lot of attention, so a single instructor can handle it. But 10 groups was about the upper limit of what we could fit in the space at the place I started teaching. We could get a few off-mat for striking drills, but there wasn't much space off-mat. I think more than 10 groups (including the folks off-mat) needs another instructor, both because of the time requirement, and because it's difficult to stay positioned to see all of those different groups easily for safety and coaching purposes.
> 
> I've been in larger classes (when visiting other dojos), and yeah, they always had help. I suppose more could be done with line drills (kata, traditional striking drills, etc.), if everyone is on the same drill.


I will have to add that with upper-level classes, students need less individual attention than beginners. So, I can see teaching a class of a dozen or more brown belts would involve less one-on-one coaching than the same number of white belts. I conducted a 2 hour seminar recently with 23 students, all beginners (as in never seen the inside of a dojo). I was glad I had an assistant as much individual coaching was needed. It was a fun time.


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## Gerry Seymour

Ji Yuu said:


> I will have to add that with upper-level classes, students need less individual attention than beginners. So, I can see teaching a class of a dozen or more brown belts would involve less one-on-one coaching than the same number of white belts. I conducted a 2 hour seminar recently with 23 students, all beginners (as in never seen the inside of a dojo). I was glad I had an assistant as much individual coaching was needed. It was a fun time.


And a mixed class can be more or less demanding. Give me 6 brown and 6 white. If I pair them by rank, I'll usually have 3 groups that require almsot no attention and 3 that require a lot. If I put the 6 browns with the 6 whites, I have 6 groups that require little attention.


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## Ji Yuu

Gerry Seymour said:


> And a mixed class can be more or less demanding. Give me 6 brown and 6 white. If I pair them by rank, I'll usually have 3 groups that require almsot no attention and 3 that require a lot. If I put the 6 browns with the 6 whites, I have 6 groups that require little attention.


Oh, yes. That's definitely the way to do it. Getting the advanced students to help with the novice group. That's actually what I did at the mentioned seminar; my blue stripe student was a big help with explaining the basics to people. I just wish I had one more to help out at that time.


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## WaterGal

dvcochran said:


> A school of size has to reach a critical mass; having enough BB's or high-ranking students and/or instructors is a necessary first step. From a startup point of view, this can come in two forms; build the body of trainers through time and promotion or hire BB's from outside your school/system. I hear the latter is done on a regular basis these days, but it just seems weird to me on several levels. On average, the former is going to take +/- 3-years. A reality a startup needs to fully understand. The principal owner must invest some serious time and sweat equity to get the ball rolling. But this is the perfect time to establish the standards and imprint them as the mass grows.
> 
> If there is another way to do this, I would love to hear about it.
> 
> After the critical mass of instructors is created, things can get into a rhythm more like you are describing.


That's true. At the beginning, you're probably having one instructor teaching all the classes. If you offer a bunch of classes each week broken up by age and rank, that can be manageable up to a certain point, maybe 100-150 students. By that point, you've hopefully trained up some people to a rank where they can be instructors.


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