# How Much Do You Train?



## paulus (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi

I'm reading Bruce Lee's biography (by Bruce Thomas) and apparently in the early 1960's Bruce was training 40 hours a week. I find this both staggering and inspirational (assuming it's true). So I was wondering:


how many hours a week do you train?
are you happy with that, or do you wish you could train more?
what stops you training more?
what are the pros and cons? Just kidding 
For me, I've just started training 1 hour a day. Although this isn't much, it's a big step up from the 10 - 15 minutes I was doing daily! I wish I could train more, but at the moment there are too many other demands on my time. I find that slotting one hour in a secluded room in the gym (no audience) before work is good for me. On top of that I go to 3 classes a week, each lasting one hour. That makes 10 hours a week. I couldn't find other posts asking this question, sorry if I've missed them.

What about you?


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi! I strongly sudgest reading The ao of Jeet kune do to any martial artist. For training inspirations and info I would also sudgest Bruce Lees fighting method which is a 4 volume collection. I liked it.

About your question; at this point in my life I train everyday for about an hour(some days less some days more). We also have a WC group at Thursdays and we meet up and do Chi sao, attack eachother and basicly just experiment with what works and what doesn't for each individual. What stops me from training more is school and to some degree(have to be honest) laysiness  Not having a WC class or instructor doesn't help either!



> what are the pros and cons? Just kidding


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## profesormental (Jan 12, 2009)

As much as I can...

Also, since I take the lessons and learnings from the forums and readings to my training hall, I consider this part of the training and study.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 12, 2009)

Same here... I also found out that if you want to explain something to someone you have to understand it that much better. Thats the main reason for me to be on a forum besides learning from all you experienced people!


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## paulus (Jan 12, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1102668 said:
			
		

> Hi! I strongly sudgest reading The ao of Jeet kune do to any martial artist. For training inspirations and info I would also sudgest Bruce Lees fighting method which is a 4 volume collection. I liked it.


Thanks for the suggestion Eru. I actually got the Tao of JKD as a Christmas present so I'll read that one next and also have a look at the Fighting Method.

My biggest problem regarding training is time. I've already replaced my daily weight training routine with WC practice, I think the next thing to sacrifice is sleep


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 12, 2009)

Yea, I don't own Bruce Lee's books but at my county library they hold quite a few of them. I had borrowed the Tao and coulpe of Jun Fan's fighting method. The only one I have yet to glimpse at is the Wing Chun  Book by Lee. I also suggest you get Jun Fan's book of Chinese Gung Fu. Very good read...

As for practice. I wish I could work out 8 hours a day...man that would be ideal. But between two jobs and a wife uninterested in gung fu it makes my time hard...I try to work out a little each day...On weekends when I am off work I try to dedicate two to four hours...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jan 12, 2009)

Paulus I work a 9-5 job.

My training is daily. I wake up at 5am and train till 7am.

I come home about 6pm and train till about 8pm

When I walk,When I take a shower,When I stand in line or anything I am doing I am practicing my stance,balance,footwork,timing.

As a Martial artist everything to me is training even work.

 I mold my life around my Martial arts not the other way around.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 12, 2009)

Jadecloud I love your regiment. Were you ever in Military?

Anyway I wish i could do more like you. What time at night do you go to sleep. I get off work at about 9pm...I go to my first job around 8pm. An get off my second job around 9pm...so I usually get home about 9:30pm...I wish I had the time you have...boy...

On breaks or down time at work and between work I try to work on forms and some drills. I work on stepping on elevators as I walk through the hallways. Some times I do dan chi sau while walking alone. But my major work out comes when I off on weekends friday-sunday. But at night I try to get an half hour in to an hour each day after work...Sometimes I just get sleep.


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## paulus (Jan 13, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Paulus I work a 9-5 job.
> 
> My training is daily. I wake up at 5am and train till 7am.
> 
> ...


I find your routine inspiring JadecloudAlchemist, thanks for that.

I have lots of other demands on my time that 'prevent' me from doing more but I'm looking at ways I can make more time. I often have trouble sleeping so one idea I've come up with is to go to bed an hour later than normal and do an hour of WC before bed. Killing 2 birds with one stone - I'll be getting more practice and also exhausting myself so I have no chouice but to sleep.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jan 13, 2009)

> Were you ever in Military?


 
I went to reform school.




> What time at night do you go to sleep.


 

Around 12 or so.

When I was in Japan at my Motherinlaw's house The bathroom was huge like a room. So I would sit for an hour or 2 just mediating under the shower head sort of like an indoor Misogi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogi

Finding creative ways to improve your training is a good thing.

 Living in America we tend to waste so much time on unfullfilling things that we neglect the things that matter most.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 13, 2009)

paulus said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm reading Bruce Lee's biography (by Bruce Thomas) and apparently in the early 1960's Bruce was training 40 hours a week. I find this both staggering and inspirational (assuming it's true). So I was wondering:
> 
> ...



Paulus, would that be "Fighting Spirit" by Bruce Thomas?  Great book in my opinion.  I didn't get the feeling that JKD politics messed it up and thought it to be pretty straight forward and hard to put down!







As far as training, I had a little hiatus for a month or so, but usually:
*
Wing Chun:*  Class twice a week for two hours each and anywhere from 20-60+ minutes a day on my own.  Usually stepping, straight blasting, SNT, practicing simultaneous block and strike, stance work...ect.  I am not at any advanced level of Wing Chun (yet) and stick to what Sifu show me in class.
*
Physical fittness:*  Run 3-6 miles 3-4 times per week in the spring, summer, and fall as well as Combat Conditioning workout (bodyweight excercises).  I also "kickbox" train in my polebarn in the warmer months.  That usually is one, 15 minute round on the heavy bag after 15 minutes jumping rope (40-50 beats a minute) using various styles (doubles, crosses, single leg...ect).  Winter time here in Michigan USA limits my running ability, so I take that time to get fat and lazy and let the knees and ankles heal up.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 13, 2009)

paulus said:


> how many hours a week do you train?


 
Not enough, There was a time when I could tell you I train 10 to 20 hours a week that was specifically training, nothing else. I did however then do something similar to what JadecloudAlchemist is doing. I looked for training opportunities everywhere and somewhere along the way I forgot that. And right now I am lucky if I get an hour a day sometimes 1.5 hours and IMO to do JUST the Yang Taijiquan training justice that should be at least 2 hours a day all by itself. Throw in Sanda and I am at another 30 minutes to an hour (and that is light) and add Xingyiquan and you got at least 30 minutes of just Santi and that does not include anything else. If I could get the damn state to pay me to stay home and train I'd be just fine. 

But sadly to be honest these days I would say I am likely, at this point, at 8 to 10 hours a week. Which, IMO, is not enough.. particularly if we are talking ICMA



paulus said:


> are you happy with that, or do you wish you could train more?


 
Not happy and wish I could train more. And actually I am getting up earlier in the morning to do just that and I have paired some things out of my training to give me more time to focus on other parts of my training and I have added a couple of things back in that I feel I need.

My only problem is that I start to miss certain aspects that I had to cut out. 



paulus said:


> what stops you training more?


 
A combination of things, Family obligations, Work obligations and sometimes just plain laziness at times. The last month it was sick kids and then a sick me.

I need to adopt the JadecloudAlchemist training mindset, thank you JadecloudAlchemist for your posts, they were quite helpful :asian:

I also need to finish building that striking post in my basement to cut down on the Cruelty to Trees protestors that hang out in front of my house


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 13, 2009)

> Paulus, would that be "Fighting Spirit" by Bruce Thomas? Great book in my opinion. I didn't get the feeling that JKD politics messed it up and thought it to be pretty straight forward and hard to put down!


 
About stuff on Bruce Lee... Theres a great DVD out there called Bruce Lee: A warrior's journey and it focuses on him as a martial artist and his JKD. It includes rare tapes of him training, rare speeches dictated by him about JKD philosophy and what I liked a lot too was that it includes a never bofore shown/uncut(before the dvd;now you can probably find it on youtube) footage of Game of death. It has a diffrent story and more complete fights. It's interesting becouse it is said in the documentary that he intended this movie to be a "tutorial"(for a lack of a better term) on JKD but he died before finishing the movie so they changed the storyline, names, fightscenes... Well if you seen the movie you will probably agree that it sucks big times  Also they guy that they replace Bruce with is never seen in the face for obvious reasons which makes the movie experience pretty lame in my opinion..

Dungeonworks, I read on a thread a while ago that your thinking about joining a JKD school. How did that go, if you don't mind me asking? And what kind of JKD school was it(JKD concepts/jun fan jkd or something else entirely)?


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## paulus (Jan 13, 2009)

dungeonworks said:


> Paulus, would that be "Fighting Spirit" by Bruce Thomas?  Great book in my opinion.  I didn't get the feeling that JKD politics messed it up and thought it to be pretty straight forward and hard to put down!


It is indeed that book, and similarly I find it hard to put down too. When I read that he was doing 40 hours a week, that just blew me away! I was fortunate enough to get another couple of Bruce Lee books for Christmas so with those and the pointers I've got in this thread they should keep me going for a while.


dungeonworks said:


> *Wing Chun:* Class twice a week for two hours each and anywhere from 20-60+ minutes a day on my own. Usually stepping, straight blasting, SNT, practicing simultaneous block and strike, stance work...ect. I am not at any advanced level of Wing Chun (yet) and stick to what Sifu show me in class.


That sounds similar to what I'm doing. I'm very lucky to have a training partner close to where I work so two lunchtimes a week I get to train with him too.



Xue Sheng said:


> And right now I am lucky if I get an hour a day sometimes 1.5 hours and IMO to do JUST the Yang Taijiquan training justice that should be at least 2 hours a day all by itself. Throw in Sanda and I am at another 30 minutes to an hour (and that is light) and add Xingyiquan and you got at least 30 minutes of just Santi and that does not include anything else.


I know what you mean. My sifu also teaches Chen and qigong, which I would love to do, but there are only so many hours a day. If I could clone myself...



Xue Sheng said:


> I need to adopt the JadecloudAlchemist training mindset, thank you JadecloudAlchemist for your posts, they were quite helpful :asian:


I'll second that!




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1103618 said:
			
		

> About stuff on Bruce Lee... Theres a great DVD out there called Bruce Lee: A warrior's journey and it focuses on him as a martial artist and his JKD. It includes rare tapes of him training, rare speeches dictated by him about JKD philosophy


I'll see if I can find that. I'd be interested in seeing any footage of him training. I've seen the 20 second wonders on youtube, but they always leave me wanting more!

Thanks for all the responses, they're really helpful


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## paulus (Jan 13, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1102668 said:
			
		

> For training inspirations and info I would also sudgest Bruce Lees fighting method which is a 4 volume collection. I liked it.


From looking at the table of contents on Amazon, it looks like these books are training guides (they look good). Were you able to incorporate any of the exercises into your training Eru?


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## myusername (Jan 13, 2009)

Looks like I am the lazy one of the forum! I find it very difficult to train outside of class time. I train my jujutsu twice a week (Mon & Thurs) and boxing once a week (Friday). I always do a couple of hours exercise on a saturday afternnoon, whether that be going for a run or playing badminton with my girlfriend and that is the lot I'm afraid to say!

I have a few of my chief instructor's DVD's which I do generally watch at least once a week as I feel it keeps the techniques fresh in my mind for the next session. I also spend a fair amount of time on this forum and searching out MA and self defence information on the web in my spare moments. I don't consider this training as such but it keeps my enthusiasm up!

I probably would train more if I were a single man! I would love to train in Kevin O'Hagan's MMA classes (tues, thurs & sun) as he no longer teaches my jujutsu classes any more but I think my partner would be a little unhappy if I was out training every night! I think it is bad enough for her that I am always talking about it! There is a cost issue too as another three training sessions would mean another £72 a month we can't really afford.



paulus said:


> I often have trouble sleeping so one idea I've come up with is to go to bed an hour later than normal and do an hour of WC before bed. Killing 2 birds with one stone - I'll be getting more practice and also exhausting myself so I have no chouice but to sleep.



As an aside the mental health nurse in me can't resist offering you some advice! Doing any exercise immediately before bed is likely to increase your heart rate and give you a surge of adrenaline thus making you even more awake (even if you are physically exhausted!) It is very unlikely to be of any help overcoming your sleep problems. I know a lot of people can and do do exercise before bed and sleep perfectly well, but in general these people would not have problems getting off to sleep in the first place and it is more about routine than the exercise.

Tips for improved sleep would be to do relaxing things before bed, may be have a long bath or practice a breathing/meditation exercise (A simple one to try is just laying down and resting your hands on your belly and then slowly and deeply breathing in for three seconds and then out for three seconds, all the time just feeling your belly rise and fall with your breath). 
Try and go to bed and get out of bed the same time each day. Stick to your routine wether you get enough sleep or not. No lazy lie ins! 

Try and separate your wakeful day time activities from your night time activities so no watching TV or eating in bed. Indeed try and make your bedroom a low stimulus enviroment with minimal noise and light levels. This will help your brain know when it is meant to sleep and meant to be awake. 

The most important thing is to try and not get frustrated when you can't sleep! (as a previous sufferer of insomnia I know how difficult this can be!) Thumping the pillow and getting angry just makes the problem worse, acceptence is the key so just go back to meditation/breathing exercises. If it is mind racing that is keeping you awake try setting some time earlier in the evening to sit with your feelings and write down your thoughts in a diary or perhaps write a list of what you need to accomplish tommorrow so that it doesn't all come rushing into your brain the moment you lay down at night.

Sorry about this digression but as I said I couldn't help myself! Hope this helps but like I said, in my experience, exercise immediately before bed is unlikely to help if you are having trouble getting off to sleep.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 13, 2009)

Thank you for your post...I am glad you took the time to share with us...Sounds interesting...An yea..when I work out I have more energy?

I don't know how you do it Jade cloud...go to sleep around 12am and wake up at 5am...



Man thats crazy!





myusername said:


> Looks like I am the lazy one of the forum! I find it very difficult to train outside of class time. I train my jujutsu twice a week (Mon & Thurs) and boxing once a week (Friday). I always do a couple of hours exercise on a saturday afternnoon, whether that be going for a run or playing badminton with my girlfriend and that is the lot I'm afraid to say!
> 
> I have a few of my chief instructor's DVD's which I do generally watch at least once a week as I feel it keeps the techniques fresh in my mind for the next session. I also spend a fair amount of time on this forum and searching out MA and self defence information on the web in my spare moments. I don't consider this training as such but it keeps my enthusiasm up!
> 
> ...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jan 13, 2009)

> go to sleep around 12am and wake up at 5am...


 Well mediation is a great benefit. 

If the body is healthy it needs less sleep.

I want to make some clarifications concerning my training.

5am I am awake stretching,mediation,Qigong and practicing Santi.

6am-7am I am walking circle.

There is just no way I can sit in Santi for more than 15 mins or walk circle for 2hours at a time yet working on it though.

When I am taking a shower I also practice mediation,Zhan Zhuang,and prayer. If you have ever seen the Seinfeld were Kramer does everything in the shower kinda of like that. 




 

When I get home around 6 or so I practice Santi again if my legs are not to sore. and Walk circle as well as other things.

My routine is not really set in stone some days I don't want to do anything but watch tv its normal. But I hope this shows I am human lol.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jan 13, 2009)

I wanted to also add a funny story about one of my teachers who drank pots of Gunpowder green tea.

He would go thru days without sleeping sometimes very jittery anyway
one day he was teaching class and I asked him about all the Green tea he drinks. I asked him if he has to pee alot. He said yea but thats my business and no concern to you.

So go ahead drink more tea if you need time to train.


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## paulus (Jan 14, 2009)

myusername said:


> Doing any exercise immediately before bed is likely to increase your heart rate and give you a surge of adrenaline thus making you even more awake (even if you are physically exhausted!)


Thanks for the advice, I'd not thought of that. In that case, I could still go to bed an hour later but do the Wing Chun practice earlier.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 14, 2009)

Paulus,

I get the same issue if I eat too much "simple sugars" in my diet...especially with the coffee and caffienated diet pop that is my gaff! LOL  You will sleep very soundly if you limit your simple carbs such as breads (refined flour whitebread namely), sugars, sweets, potatoes, beer, candy...ect.  Stress can do it to ya too.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 14, 2009)

If You do some deep breathing meditation before bed while playing some slow music?





dungeonworks said:


> Paulus,
> 
> I get the same issue if I eat too much "simple sugars" in my diet...especially with the coffee and caffienated diet pop that is my gaff! LOL You will sleep very soundly if you limit your simple carbs such as breads (refined flour whitebread namely), sugars, sweets, potatoes, beer, candy...ect. Stress can do it to ya too.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 14, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> If You do some deep breathing meditation before bed while playing some slow music?



I usually will read or watch something on Discovery or Nat. Geo. channel.  It only happens periodically these days because i limit my simple sugar intake.  That creates a natural "fatigue" if you will.  I been a midnight shifter for so long and that plays into it a lot.

Thanks Yoshiyahu.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 15, 2009)

> From looking at the table of contents on Amazon, it looks like these books are training guides (they look good). Were you able to incorporate any of the exercises into your training Eru?


 
Sure, quite a few actualy. Some speed, power and stamina exercises are pretty good. Plus the guy realy studied how to "pull" the most out of your body. He did some pretty good things for getting strength but not getting "bulky" muscles and thus avoided getting slower while getting stronger. I also liked a techinque or two and have adopted them. He doesn't realy discover anything new or something. But it's the way he combines and uses diffrent things and knowledge from diffrent fields and makes them work together is pretty great. He was into anything and everything that could improve him as a martial artist.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 17, 2009)

Are you speaking of the Bruce Lee Books Fighting Method?



His books are pretty informative...He even deals with Iron Fingers techniques! His books are called Bruce Lee's Fighting Method Volumes 1-4




 

*These two books are very Traditional*​ 


*






*​ 





*Also these are some good books as well to have for your library!*​ 
*



*​ 



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1104848 said:
			
		

> Sure, quite a few actualy. Some speed, power and stamina exercises are pretty good. Plus the guy realy studied how to "pull" the most out of your body. He did some pretty good things for getting strength but not getting "bulky" muscles and thus avoided getting slower while getting stronger. I also liked a techinque or two and have adopted them. He doesn't realy discover anything new or something. But it's the way he combines and uses diffrent things and knowledge from diffrent fields and makes them work together is pretty great. He was into anything and everything that could improve him as a martial artist.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 17, 2009)

Yes, that is the book collection I spoke of.


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## AMP-RYU (Jan 17, 2009)

I work out 5 hours a day, 6 days a week! Yes I know that instruction is not always the hardest workout but it is still a workout! I do all my stretches,kicks,blocks and forms every class. So I probably workout 30 hours a week or so!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Before I was a full time instructor I worked out 3 hours a day 6 days a week. 2 hours a night in TKD, and 1 hour or so in Capoeria. I also"when its warm" jog to the school and home everyday. About a mile and half one way!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Also keep in mind that this is my full time job and I put in alot more time than most can. So dont feel discuraged. I think that 2 hours a night 3 times a week for starters is plenty of workout time. Hope I was of some help.

My schedule:
jog to class                15 min.
work on new material   60 min. 3:00pm
little dragons              30 min. 4:00pm
little ninjas                 30 min. 4:30pm
childrens class            60 min. 5:00pm
family class                60 min. 6:00pm
adult class                 60 min. 7:00pm
kickboxing                  60 min. 8:00pm
jog home                    15 min. 9:00pm


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 18, 2009)

Wow, truly impresive  Hey, I was googling World AMP-RYU Association and Amp ryu(guessing it's Karate becouse of the "ryu"?) but I can't seem to find anything... Could you please tell me something about it? Also whats your ranking in TKD? And if you're not to bothered with all this questions...  There was a discussion going on another thread about TKD and I would love to hear from someone who trains as much as you do about how you feel about TKD as street defence? And how has it worked for you on the street?

Thanks in advance!


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## AMP-RYU (Jan 18, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1106400 said:
			
		

> Wow, truly impresive  Hey, I was googling World AMP-RYU Association and Amp ryu(guessing it's Karate becouse of the "ryu"?) but I can't seem to find anything... Could you please tell me something about it? Also whats your ranking in TKD? And if you're not to bothered with all this questions...  There was a discussion going on another thread about TKD and I would love to hear from someone who trains as much as you do about how you feel about TKD as street defence? And how has it worked for you on the street?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


 
Actually you really wont find anything on the world amp ryu assoc. its my personal independent school. I learned in the world youn wha ryu assoc. but big business maid me decide to go independent. AMP-RYU means
*A*bsolute *M*ind *P*ower- *Ryu* is japanese for school. Its actually really a mixed style. Not specifically TKD. I have incorporated some karate(more use of hands)not limiting feet of course, BJJ, capoeria(acrobatics)and alot of just plain street self defense, among other things I learn and feel necessary to add. My current ranking is 4th degree black belt, and I plan on staying here for a long time. dont really feel the need to advance. As far as street self defense and tkd, I feel it is just as effective as any other martial art...that is not using it at all!:asian: But if a trained person ever did have to use it, your legs are longer than your opponants arms! Not to mention 10 times stronger. A street fight between the untrained and a tkd artist should in my opinion be over in less than 30 seconds. Always let your opponant be the aggressore, when they come in to jab at you weakly, roundhouse to the ribs!(fight over!) All this said I dont think anyone without atleast a years worth of training should ever try to defend themselves with the martial arts( because they have not yet learned how to use their art without thinking about it and that is how you get hurt. Also they have not yet learned how to use their head to get out of a fight before it happens and could seriously hurt someone. You have to have a degree of self control!:asian: I hope I have been helpful if you have anymore questions just hollar.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks, I realy liked your post!



> Always let your opponant be the aggressore, when they come in to jab at you weakly, roundhouse to the ribs!(fight over!)


 
Thats something I like to do just instead of a Dollio or something I use a Yeop chagi to the knee(as a stop kick) or to the mid area(bladder or stomach).



> I hope I have been helpful if you have anymore questions just hollar.


 
Yes, very helpful thanks! Since you mention, I would like to know are you ITF or WTF out of curiosity 

Sounds like a cool school you have there! Got any videos?


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## AMP-RYU (Jan 18, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1106447 said:
			
		

> Thanks, I realy liked your post!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Im neither part of the ITF or WTF but my grandmaster was involved in both. Just dont think that a foreign assoc. helps your training with a piece of paper saying your part of their org.

I dont have any videos but maybe I could get some!


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 18, 2009)

> Just dont think that a foreign assoc. helps your training with a piece of paper saying your part of their org.


 
Nah, nothing like that. It's just I only have experience in WTF and none in ITF but I hear from other people that ITF places more emphasis on hands(and hits to the head are acctualy allowed in turnoments) and that becouse of that WTF is sopposed to have fighters with "better" legs. I would like to point out that I don't want to offend nobody and that I have no experience in ITF that I could make my opinion on-just things I hear. But since you were probably trained in both would you mind shedding some light on this for me?  Were the ITF hand techniques that you were thought any good? And how does it compare to WTF overall in your opinion?



> I dont have any videos but maybe I could get some!


 
That would be cool! Please let me know if you get any!

Appologies to the TS for hijacking the thread. If it bothers you I can continiu this via PM.


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## geezer (Jan 18, 2009)

Well, to get back on the topic about how long you train, i'll admit that I probably should change the name I'm using here from "Geezer" to "Slacker"... or more accurately, "Old Slacker". I'm finding it really hard to train enough to make any progress these days. Reading AMP-RYU's posts makes me nostalgic for the old days, back in the 80's when I taught MA. At least, when you have to lead a class through all the drills several times a week, in addition to your own training, you _do_ keep up on your technique. But even then, splitting my time between martial arts and grad school probably delayed me from completing my degree requirements for about a year. 

Nowadays, family, career, and middle age all conspire against me! Not to mention that I'm trying to do three things at once: WT, Eskrima, and a bit of rapier fencing. My wife thinks it's all a bit juvenile. She accused me of being like "Peter Pan". WTF!!! No way! If anything I'd rather be _Captain Hook_. And let that crock come around my ship... I'll drop him a side of beef wrapped around a powder keg. Ha!


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## skinters (Jan 18, 2009)

for me the question of how much do i train has never been a concern,in as much i look at the quality of that training,quality over quantity eh ?

dont try and copy someone elses training programme stick to your own methods,you wouldnt look like bruce lee or anyone lese if you copied exactly their diet and training regime.

in my veiw bruce lee over trained,he was a little hyperactive,and maybe needed to train more intelligently,where frequency was concerned.

i used to feel guilty if i missed training, but these days it dont bother me,i wait until the mood takes me,and get a much more productive workout,and in fact make quicker gains.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 18, 2009)

Interesting. My WC instructor would say something similar. Allthough I have to dissagree. If two people are of the same skill level then one of the most important factors for the to decide who prevails will surely be speed, stamina, strength and body hardening (simple example beer belly vs sixpack;the guy with the six pack will probably take the punch better). I feel that to ignore the "physical" part of martial arts is silly as it is more or less one half of the whole thing. You got skill *and* physical atributes.

About not being wise to copy someone else. I agree to a certein degree. For example Bruce Lees JKD was something that not many besides him could make work for them. But that is irrelaven as the whole point of JKD is to make one for yourself. Use what works for you discard what doesn't. That can be just WC for somebody for example. But it is futile to want to embody a style as you will most likely never reach a level of proficiency to such a level that you will use only WC(for example) and WC to the letter in a chaotic street fight. Saying all that I think Bruce Lee was a very knowledgable guy in the context of fitness and martial arts especialy for hes days. And somethings are just smart/good ways of doing/training things no matter if Bruce Lee did it or somebody else. Just coppying for the sake of coppying, I agree, would be silly.

About Bruce Lee overtraining. That again is something my instructor would say  But I think that there is no such thing when you want to reach martial art proficiency. To me personaly he is one of the biggest inspirations in the martial art world. That maybe a cliche today but exactly that should make one wonder why so many people respect a guy who died in the 70s so much. Again I say that no matter if your fighting style is something completely diffrent like Bruces a book like The tao of Jeet kune do can only help you in one way or the other. I'm sure everybody can find something useful in there!

But yes it's true that one should be more concerned with quality than quantity but I guess it depends on what you deem as quality. As I said correct physical training can only help you in the long run. If your a WC purist guy you should be aware of some things so your relaxnes and speed don't suffer but still. Just imagineut the best WC guy you know of into the body of Bruce Lee. With hes speed and strength that would be just beutiful


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## geezer (Jan 18, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1106584 said:
			
		

> Interesting. My WC instructor would say something similar. Allthough I have to dissagree. If two people are of the same skill level then one of the most important factors for the to decide who prevails will surely be speed, stamina, strength and body hardening (simple example beer belly vs sixpack;the guy with the six pack will probably take the punch better). I feel that to ignore the "physical" part of martial arts is silly as it is more or less one half of the whole thing. You got skill *and* physical atributes.



Yeah, true, but the _skill _counts more than the bod. For a lazy old bastard, I've been working pretty hard at getting in shape. I've _got_ the six pack. But the beer-bellied guys I train with can floor me. The joke is I'll make a handsome corpse for a guy in his mid-fifties!



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1106584 said:
			
		

> ... Just imagineut the best WC guy you know of into the body of Bruce Lee. With hes speed and strength that would be just beutiful



 As far as the speed and strength thing goes,,, a few WC/WT guys have been there and done that. Check out what Emin Boztepe looked like in his prime. Beyond ripped... a freakin' monster. Hell, he's still in great condition, and he ain't no spring chicken. 

And while on the subject of Bruce Lee, what if he were alive today, and was old, fat and out of shape? Think how that would have messed up his legacy!

OK, enough talk. Now I'm going to do some sit-ups. No, really! I really am.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 19, 2009)

> Yeah, true, but the _skill _counts more than the bod. For a lazy old bastard, I've been working pretty hard at getting in shape. I've _got_ the six pack. But the beer-bellied guys I train with can floor me. The joke is I'll make a handsome corpse for a guy in his mid-fifties!


 
Well to be honest I think thats a bit relative. Bruce Lee for example(and I'm not saying I agree or anything) felt like the physical conditioning is too neglected in the martial arts world and that it is even more important then skill alone. I guess you could argue both ways. Personaly I believe that they are about equal. Not saying that a very skilled person can't defeat a guy twice his size I just think similarly a very good athlete who hasn't trained anything formely but has street experience has a big chance against a very skilled WChunner/guy/whatever who has never been in a fight.



> As far as the speed and strength thing goes,,, a few WC/WT guys have been there and done that. Check out what Emin Boztepe looked like in his prime. Beyond ripped... a freakin' monster. Hell, he's still in great condition, and he ain't no spring chicken.


 
Sure, he's a good example. And has argubly one of the best fighters in WC. I still think that BL was in a better physical shape then Emin in his prime tho 



> And while on the subject of Bruce Lee, what if he were alive today, and was old, fat and out of shape? Think how that would have messed up his legacy!


 
Yea I heard that argument many times before. Especialy from my instructor. Something like: you want to train something that even when your old and weak you are able to defend yourself. But it seems just silly to me that for that reason you shouldn't exploit your full potential when your young. You should allways strive for the best/the ideal. Sure most people don't have the time to do what for example BL did but thats besides the point. What I want to say is that if you have the time and the opportunity to do both it would be silly to just focus on one and ignore a huge part of the whole thing. Thats the only way to try to reach your FULL potential. But if your an average guy who wants to learn to defend himself and has time 2-3times per week for an hour then that changes things, sure. But even to that guy I would advise to at least do some bean bag punching and pushups once in a while.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 19, 2009)

> Well to be honest I think thats a bit relative. Bruce Lee for example(and I'm not saying I agree or anything) felt like the physical conditioning is too neglected in the martial arts world and that it is even more important then skill alone. I guess you could argue both ways. Personaly I believe that they are about equal. Not saying that a very skilled person can't defeat a guy twice his size I just think similarly a very good athlete who hasn't trained anything formely but has street experience has a big chance against a very skilled WChunner/guy/whatever *who has never been in a fight*.


 
Ok, I reread my post and noticed I wrote some silly things. So to correct my self: skill is a *very* broad concept and yes it is probably more important then physical training. What I wanted to say was that some phisical atributes could be more useful then *techniques* alone, not skill. Looks like I wrote to quickly and confused couple of very important concepts. Anyway wouldn't realy like to go on whats more important or whats better just wanted to point out that physical training *is* an important part of training.

And about the highlighted, I wanted to say:who doesn't have good physical atributes/conditioning(speed,stamina,power) to take a punch.

I would also like to point out that phisical conditioning in WC is also very important. Especialy conditioning the parts involved in WC structure and body alignment. Plus to put physical conditioning even more in WC context, check out articles and videos by Alan Lee on this site: http://www.wingchunnyc.com/. He talks how Ip Man tought that if you want to be a fighter you have to devote yourself to hard physical training aswell. He also mentions some exercises Ip Man made his students do.

Also Paul Vunak puts it well. He says something along the lines that when training to fight all that is important are atributes and that you have to know at wich one your good at and exploit them and also work on those that may not be satisfactory.

I did want to just edit my post but couldn't find the edit button! whats the point that sometimes you can edit and sometimes you can't?!


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 19, 2009)

I saw a Tae Kwon do street sparring match. This young kid form Vietnam was sparring this one old guy who studied TKD from back in the 70's. It was very interesting. The Young kid was very fast and powerful. He through and Axe Kick from out of no where an clock the guy in face and shoulder. The poor guy was able to absorb the blow by use of his hands. 
But it was very interesting. Although the young was holding back. You could see he had a lot of power and very fast with his kicks. Had he been really fighting I would feel sorry for the guy on the receiving end of those feet!






AMP-RYU said:


> Actually you really wont find anything on the world amp ryu assoc. its my personal independent school. I learned in the world youn wha ryu assoc. but big business maid me decide to go independent. AMP-RYU means
> *A*bsolute *M*ind *P*ower- *Ryu* is japanese for school. Its actually really a mixed style. Not specifically TKD. I have incorporated some karate(more use of hands)not limiting feet of course, BJJ, capoeria(acrobatics)and alot of just plain street self defense, among other things I learn and feel necessary to add. My current ranking is 4th degree black belt, and I plan on staying here for a long time. dont really feel the need to advance. As far as street self defense and tkd, I feel it is just as effective as any other martial art...that is not using it at all!:asian: But if a trained person ever did have to use it, your legs are longer than your opponants arms! Not to mention 10 times stronger. A street fight between the untrained and a tkd artist should in my opinion be over in less than 30 seconds. Always let your opponant be the aggressore, when they come in to jab at you weakly, roundhouse to the ribs!(fight over!) All this said I dont think anyone without atleast a years worth of training should ever try to defend themselves with the martial arts( because they have not yet learned how to use their art without thinking about it and that is how you get hurt. Also they have not yet learned how to use their head to get out of a fight before it happens and could seriously hurt someone. You have to have a degree of self control!:asian: I hope I have been helpful if you have anymore questions just hollar.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 19, 2009)

> I saw a Tae Kwon do street sparring match. This young kid form Vietnam was sparring this one old guy who studied TKD from back in the 70's. It was very interesting. The Young kid was very fast and powerful. He through and Axe Kick from out of no where an clock the guy in face and shoulder. The poor guy was able to absorb the blow by use of his hands.
> But it was very interesting. Although the young was holding back. You could see he had a lot of power and very fast with his kicks. Had he been really fighting I would feel sorry for the guy on the receiving end of those feet!


 
To me it's amazing what some people can do with their legs! My brother for example is a black belt in TKD and when he trained he could easily hit me for example with an Naryo Chagi(I think thats what you mean with the Axe kick; the one going down verticaly?) to the head from punching range. And probably faster then I could have kicked him to the mid area! Another thing to think about good kickers; I know a TKD guy who was able to kick a WT practitioner (who was relatively high ranking;had students) in the head when the WT guy knew he was going to be kicked and knew with what leg he was going to be hit and knew it was going to be full speed.


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## mook jong man (Jan 19, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1107124 said:
			
		

> To me it's amazing what some people can do with their legs! My brother for example is a black belt in TKD and when he trained he could easily hit me for example with an Naryo Chagi(I think thats what you mean with the Axe kick; the one going down verticaly?) to the head from punching range. And probably faster then I could have kicked him to the mid area! Another thing to think about good kickers; I know a TKD guy who was able to kick a WT practitioner (who was relatively high ranking;had students) in the head when the WT guy knew he was going to be kicked and knew with what leg he was going to be hit and knew it was going to be full speed.


 
There is no doubt about it , you will be kicked in the head if you just stand there . One of my instructors was a former south pacific TKD champion who later went to Wing Chun , a huge guy he was too , a family of five could have camped on his chest . 

Anyway one day we asked him if he could show us the speed of his high kicks , he did a kick up to my face as quick as a flash and it was like the speed of a punch .

 I told him to do it again , this time as soon as his shoulder moved I stepped in as fast as I could with my guard up and made contact with the back of his upper thigh and knocked him over , this happened several times .

 He said thats why he no longer did TKD , because you might have fast legs but someone with good reflexes and fast footwork can move in quickly and exploit the fact that you are on one leg .

 So my advice is to do your own center line kick as soon as they move or step in as fast as you can and hit them like a truck . Just don't be where they want you to be which is in their kicking range , move into your punching range as fast as possible .


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 19, 2009)

Well the if he was really a TKD champion I would say the guy was out practice if you could dump him on the floor that easily. Unless you were already a Wing Chun Instructor or greater. If you could dump him that simply means he hasn't been practicing the TKD that much anymore since he switch to WC. Also note some TKD or TSD guys can kick in punching range as fast as you can punch. Its better to be in trapping range than kicking range with them.






mook jong man said:


> There is no doubt about it , you will be kicked in the head if you just stand there . One of my instructors was a former south pacific TKD champion who later went to Wing Chun , a huge guy he was too , a family of five could have camped on his chest .
> 
> Anyway one day we asked him if he could show us the speed of his high kicks , he did a kick up to my face as quick as a flash and it was like the speed of a punch .
> 
> ...


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## mook jong man (Jan 20, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Well the if he was really a TKD champion I would say the guy was out practice if you could dump him on the floor that easily. Unless you were already a Wing Chun Instructor or greater. If you could dump him that simply means he hasn't been practicing the TKD that much anymore since he switch to WC. Also note some TKD or TSD guys can kick in punching range as fast as you can punch. Its better to be in trapping range than kicking range with them.


 
Yes I was an instructor , and I didn't say it was easy , I had to move in very fast at the first hint of his movement . But once I was in there , it didn't take much effort to put him on the floor , after all he was standing on one leg , with the other leg up around my head height and his upper body leaning back , not exactly a stable structure .

 I do realise they can kick in punching range , that is why you keep moving forward fast and aggressively using your stance and chi sau to manipulate their balance so that they aren't in a position to be throwing any more kicks . 

They should be too busy backpeddaling trying to get away from your onslaught to be able to launch any effective kicks from any stable stance.


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## Zero (Jan 20, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I went to reform school.
> 
> *Living in America we tend to waste so much time on unfullfilling things that we neglect the things that matter most*.


 
Jadecloud you are so right.  I spend a lot of my time (outside of long working days and time keeping my wife happy(!! - essential!!) training.  But I have recently looked at the time I still spend on the couch watching junk on TV (I think a decent fight movie is excluded from that!) - it is not much at all but still any time watching meaningless drivel is time wasted and has not helped me along the track with my goals.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 20, 2009)

One problem I have with defence against kick is that somethings work realy well in theory but in the real situation you'+re not gonna know if his gona hit you with his right/left hand or right/left foot. Plus there are souch things to consider as feinting and broken rhytem and great speed.

In the sense of defence against kicks I prefer what I was thought in EBMAS-what Emin teaches; that once the guy is in kicking range you just kick him to the bladder area which is often imobile. Tho a quick side shifting roundhouse kick from a good kicker can screw that up too. The main thing is you realy can't expect whats gonna happen. And good kicker telegraph very little. Plus most cover the centerline with their kick and from there they change to a roundhouse kick to the head for example. Just becouse of that very thing that you are voulnerable to straight attack while doing round ones.

But yea, Mook, I agree, getting in is usualy a good idea. I mean no disrespect just I would like to ask you if you think you could pull that of without knowing that the guy is neceserely going to use his legs as an attack you and where he is going to land the attack. Not saying I have a better way against kicks or anything I'm just saying it's pretty screwed up if you faced a good kicker.


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## mook jong man (Jan 20, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1107728 said:
			
		

> One problem I have with defence against kick is that somethings work realy well in theory but in the real situation you'+re not gonna know if his gona hit you with his right/left hand or right/left foot. Plus there are souch things to consider as feinting and broken rhytem and great speed.
> 
> In the sense of defence against kicks I prefer what I was thought in EBMAS-what Emin teaches; that once the guy is in kicking range you just kick him to the bladder area which is often imobile. Tho a quick side shifting roundhouse kick from a good kicker can screw that up too. The main thing is you realy can't expect whats gonna happen. And good kicker telegraph very little. Plus most cover the centerline with their kick and from there they change to a roundhouse kick to the head for example. Just becouse of that very thing that you are voulnerable to straight attack while doing round ones.
> 
> But yea, Mook, I agree, getting in is usualy a good idea. I mean no disrespect just I would like to ask you if you think you could pull that of without knowing that the guy is neceserely going to use his legs as an attack you and where he is going to land the attack. Not saying I have a better way against kicks or anything I'm just saying it's pretty screwed up if you faced a good kicker.


 

In our school we were taught to step in for everything , as soon as he moves you step in .  Whether he is going to do a leg attack or arm attack it doesn't matter , If I step in and he punches , my guard will intercept it , if I see him start to launch a straight kick I will jam it with a charging knee . 
Just remember to guard your centreline as you move in , a charging knee can cover a lot of ground , jam their kick and cover your centreline at the same time . 
Nothings perfect and you will wear some kicks but it wont be enough to hurt you because you aren't in the proper range for their kicks . In my opinion the low kicks to the thigh are the ones you have to watch out for because one of them can cripple you and really put a damper on your ability to move .


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 21, 2009)

So true a good kicker will searching for an opening. His intial kicks will come fast and hard to try to stir you up and open you up. He may use various tactics. But you have to be ready to adapt feel and sense his next movement and where it is intended to land...

Very good post!




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1107728 said:
			
		

> One problem I have with defence against kick is that somethings work realy well in theory but in the real situation you'+re not gonna know if his gona hit you with his right/left hand or right/left foot. Plus there are souch things to consider as feinting and broken rhytem and great speed.
> 
> In the sense of defence against kicks I prefer what I was thought in EBMAS-what Emin teaches; that once the guy is in kicking range you just kick him to the bladder area which is often imobile. Tho a quick side shifting roundhouse kick from a good kicker can screw that up too. The main thing is you realy can't expect whats gonna happen. And good kicker telegraph very little. Plus most cover the centerline with their kick and from there they change to a roundhouse kick to the head for example. Just becouse of that very thing that you are voulnerable to straight attack while doing round ones.
> 
> But yea, Mook, I agree, getting in is usualy a good idea. I mean no disrespect just I would like to ask you if you think you could pull that of without knowing that the guy is neceserely going to use his legs as an attack you and where he is going to land the attack. Not saying I have a better way against kicks or anything I'm just saying it's pretty screwed up if you faced a good kicker.


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## Si-Je (Jan 21, 2009)

I've had a high success rate with simply throwing heel kick out there.  You don't have to necessarily aim for the kicking leg or standing leg, just make sure that whether the kick connects or not you step in with the kick while chainpunching or haveing guard up and ready.

No matter what kick they throw I almost always connect with heel kick to stop their kick. Chainpunching to cover the head and be ready to respond to higher kicks, feints, hand strikes, etc.
Sifu Emin seems to do that alot.  He just explodes into them as soon as they move withing range of his kick and or hands. 
Garn sau is neat off roundhouse kicks and very effective and easy to get set up for. It just sort of happens as you step into the moving attacker. I've done garn sau off a roundhouse while heelkicking the midsection and stepping in.  Accidentally, so to speak. I just didn't know they were throwing a roundhouse and by the time they "twitched" to kick I was already stepping into the inside of their kicking leg. My heel kick missed but it became just a step and garn sau was there to put them to the floor.
Jumping in there and seemingly "running into a kick" is daunting at first and it took me a long time to get over the initial "freak out", but after I did it's really effective almost every time. 
Is EBMAS the only branch of WT that does this?


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 21, 2009)

> I've had a high success rate with simply throwing heel kick out there. You don't have to necessarily aim for the kicking leg or standing leg, just make sure that whether the kick connects or not you step in with the kick while chainpunching or haveing guard up and ready.
> 
> No matter what kick they throw I almost always connect with heel kick to stop their kick. Chainpunching to cover the head and be ready to respond to higher kicks, feints, hand strikes, etc.
> Sifu Emin seems to do that alot. He just explodes into them as soon as they move withing range of his kick and or hands.
> ...


 
Well heel/stop kicks where one of the things I was refering to when I spoke abou things that work well in theory but not so much in practice(for me). At least when I spar good kickers. Imagine a guy who is a good kicker and his whole gameplay is distance and he knows how to keep it and use it to his benefit. Now when I'm facing a guy like that and I don't realy know if he's gonna throw a jab or a kick at me, I find it hard to "catch" his foot with my heel. But that may be a thing that I personaly suck at. 

About hands against kicks; I was thought by my WC instructor that if you can help it you don't want to do that. And I must say I agree for most situations. For this exact techniques you speak of(if I understan which one you mean), I think this one is very popular with WT people. The one where you do a Gan sao and then go to a high tan sao or a biu tan? People like Leung Ting and Emin like to demonstrate it so that they catch the kick with the Gan and then throw the guy with the tan. Looks very cool  But I think thats the exact technique the WT guy that was kicked in the head by a good kicker(the story I spoke of in some posts earlier) used. The problem is that if the kicker is good and you do that, the kick is gonna go threw to your head even if it was first directed to your mid area(you acctualy guide it higher). Allthough against most people(and kickers who get offbalanced quickly) it's gonna work. If you only use a Gan sao against a kick I would imagine too that you could get screwed against a good kicker. Especialy by some Muay Thaiers well conditioned shin. They have pretty powerful kicks. I acctualy saw a MT guy knock a guy out on the street with a kick to the head. Allthough kicks to the head are pretty rare on the street but are still something to consider!


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## Si-Je (Jan 21, 2009)

I think that when garn sau will fail is when the WC practitioner doesn't move forward enough into the kicker. When I've used this in sparring and demos too, it only works for me if my stance is planted where their feet are.
Hense, they kick to head in a round house.
You MUST shoot in with stance and be standing where their kicking leg was before they kicked. Rooted in stance so your not toppled by a heavy leg or strong kick.
flowing from garn sau immediately to tan sau is cruitial too.  This keeps your arm from being broken.
If you stop in moving forward with this technique you could very likely get your arm broken or your head knocked off.
Plus, alot of what I consider "good kickers" chamber the kick. I used to be a pretty good TSD kicker, and we did this. 
In effect, you chamber your knee and leg into a "ready" position a nano second before you kick, hense chambering the kick. When you kick, you immediately bring your leg back to this position.  This makes it harder for someone to grab your kicking leg and re-chambers your leg for another immediate kick, i.e. same leg kick combos.  
If they kick and then take the kicking leg to "step" with leaving most if not all of their weight on the front leg, they are vulnerable for sweeps, and a broken knee. This is why you chamber after a kick, to keep from placing the kicking leg down with too much weight on it.
I've not come across alot of people who do this. Garn sau would still work but may be awkward if the leg is pulled back after a kick. 
But, as long as your core (body) is touching theirs, and your stance is taking up their stance, it's all good.  
Like a baseball bat being swong at you.  The more you step into the "handle" or arm of the bat/opponent the less force is in the weapons attack.
The further out away from a good kicker, weapon weilding swing to your head, or even a good boxer, the worst off you are.  From that range they have utilization of full power. The more inside you get the better for you even if you get a bit of the knee, or even better, the theigh.  It's not going to hurt you.  Maybe a little jolt, but with good abduction and stance you won't get knocked over.  

A kickers worst nightmare:
Everytime they kick they get kicked in the very leg their kicking with.  ouch!
This can be easy espectially if you learn to read their stance and weight position.  If their weight is heavy on the front leg, their going to kick with the back leg. If their weight is heavy ont he back leg their going to kick with the front leg. With a one leg forward stance you CANNOT keep from telegraphing your kick. The weight of the body has to go somewhere, the stance is wide and the kicker has to very visably shift their hips to shift weight from one leg to the other.
They go on the ball of the foot on the front leg and turn that ankle, it's a back spin kick of some kind. Telegraph big time! They show you their butt, kick them in the butt, don't worry about the kicking leg. 
Take the kickers space AWAY.  Jump in there.  They freak out, waste time trying to get away from you to get space to kick. Don't let them have it.

Don't let your opponet have ANYTHING that they want, actually. lol! They want to dance around and have space to kick, take it away, corner them, pressure them.
If they want to get in close and clinch, keep YOUR space while taking theirs. 
If a boxer is feigting and trying to bail you dancing around to get you to rush in so they can do their awesome combo move. Don't fall for it.  Heel kick them in the leg or stomach.  Their footwork is really fast and versitile, stop that footwork! lol! Kick that dancing leg, step on that front foot as they shoot backwards and jab, and cover chainpunching or deflecting. Then stick to them like glue!  Chi Sau time! Woot!  

Sorry, feeling a little frisky today! 
But, I hope some of these strategies help in the general idea of WC/WT application of principles and concepts.
Simple, simple, keep everything simple. 
If your WC technique isn't easy then your doing something wrong or trying to hard, anticipating, or thinking too much.  Trust me, I speak from experience for I do all those things too. 
Play WC/WT, play seriously.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 21, 2009)

Great post! And some very good pointers!  I would like to add tho that yea sure, you have to move in and everything is allright. If you move in enough he's screwed beyond repair  

But in theory most things work... Even sport TKD or karate blocks against punches/kick. I would also like to say that in many martial schools I was thought difrent techniques for difrent things. And when I practiced them in class against compliant classmates at reasonable speeds and no follow ups it all works well.. But the first time you go spar with a good martial artist that has some experience I think most people will find out that things are not so simple as they are in theory. 

Most, if they found out they're not as good as they thought they were, then accuse sparing as something that is totaly diffrent from fighting and becouse they couldn't use their precious deadly techniques it wasn't fair. To those I would say: if you are going to blind/maim/kill everybody that attacks you are going to do more harm to yourself then good in the big picture. 

Besides, sparring is one of the closest training tools one has too real fighting. It's a lot more realistic than Chi sao(in my humble opinion) even though it is one of the best martial training tools out there. 

The point is that WC teaches us the most efficient response to the situation, but as a human being it is very hard to exhibit such perfection or efficiency as WC expects of us. That is the simple answer in my opinion why even though WC is *UNBEATABLE *on paper has been beaten many times by not so "perfect or efficient" techniques. I also think that becouse of this many people choose to disregard other styles or even judge them as inferior. You must never underastimate your opponent. 

Again, it may be a personal thing, and other people can handle kicks/other martial artist just fine. But still I think that one should test their skills in a realistic enviroment.


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## Si-Je (Jan 21, 2009)

I totally agree with you. Sparring is the best test of your mastery and understanding of any styles techniques and concepts.

As for WC/WT being defeated in the "ring" or competition.  I'm still waiting to see WC/WT technique in the ring.  I found a guy in NY that's using WT in the cage and is winning.  But, it seems that when that happens, people complain that he didn't go the ground or do enough ground fighting.  Arghhh! frustrating.

But, I see ALOT of WC/WT people just simply not going forward into the opponent and following up with even just basic chainpunching.  Especially against an opponent they know is a great kicker.  Fustrates me again.  That is when you've GOT to get into that kickers space and use the advantages of WC/WT close quarters techniques to work for you.  Otherwise, you'll get your block knocked off.

I think alot of people don't act with enough "faith" in the concepts and principles of WC/WT when they spar or get in competition. They fail themselves and WC/WT. I see they defeat themselves before they even get the chance to try the stuff in combat by simply doubting the effectiveness and they hesitate.
Like anyother art, you've got to trust your skill, technique, style, and what your teacher is teaching you. Otherwise nothing will work no matter the style.

The body follows the mind.  If your mind doubts the technique, the body will fail in executing the technique. You must visualize and be certian you can do a thing before you can actually do it.

Board breaking taught me this.  Everytime I feared and doubted my ability to break, I hurt my hand and didn't break.  Only when I shut up my mind talking doubt and "science" to me was I able to "believe" I could do it.  And Then only could I break the board.

Think of those folks that have made an entire sport of jumping off 3-4 story buildings, ships, flipping and defying gravity performing street acrobatics. (I forget what it's called) Someone had to say one day, "yeah, I can do that." Bam! He did it. If you think it you can do it.
Believe or you will fail yourself.

Or even Skateboarders and X-Treme sports atheletes on bikes and rollerblades. Same same. Visualize it, do it. Fall, get hurt, try again and again until you pull it off. Those folks do thinks that most people still believe impossible.  

These people all train, train, train. They learn by doing and by doing get better and better. Find your limitations and beat them. Don't let them limit you.  Their there to be beaten and mastered, right? 
WC/WT is all in the mind. You know your theory, believe in it, know your techniuqes, have the muscle memory, believe in it.  You have no other choice.  You must.  
Then spar, test yourself, test your belief, test your theory.  If you get beat, change your theory, change your limitations and make them a strength.
WC/WT teaches you how to defeat adversity.


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## qwksilver61 (Jan 21, 2009)

at one point I was feeling very overtrained....eating breathing and sleeping Wing Tsun...so I backed off..regrouped and turned down the burners a bit...mentally too.Now I am much calmer,my punches are more powerful,and I have greater mental clarity..which helps me to deal with crisis without overreacting or being too tense.Two cents.......


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## mook jong man (Jan 21, 2009)

In my opinion Garn Sau gets a bad rap , the only problem that I have with it is that it is a bit of a passive technique by itself . Where ever possible it should be coupled with an aggressive technique like a thrusting heel kick . 

I think of it more as a late phase defencive movement , for those times that you have been surprised and can't launch a more offensive technique .

 We tended to use it more as I said before with a kick or against a high or low backfist where you don't know if the strike is coming to your face or groin , because it covers a wide area . 

You can even use it against a straight knife thrust to the mid section and then turn your hands around to grab the weapon wielding arm . Most of the critiscism of Garn Sau comes from the fact that people have never taken the the time to learn to do it properly .

 It is one of the more difficult techniques to learn and very painful in the early stages , I used to go home with bruises on my arms the size of golf balls . I reckon it took about a year before I could do a good Garn Sau against a heavy , fast kick with out suffering any ill effects .

 Its all in the timing , the timing has to be impeccable , you have to start pivoting as soon as you make contact with the shin and spread all the force over the length of your arm .

 If you take the force on one point of your arm the angle will either collapse or your arm will be broken , commonsense tells you that a leg has more mass than your forearm bones .

 Another common mistake that people make other than not having the timing correct or angles incorrect is that they turn the upper Garn Sau into a full Tan Sau , don't have the palm facing you this is a weak structure and will collapse against heavy force . Instead after intercepting the shin with the edge of your hand and starting to pivot , dissipate the force by only rotating your forearm to a diagonal position , this is a lot stronger .

 Once I had a huge monster of a man in my class , I'm talking huge , well it was our school policy to always when teaching demonstrate on the biggest guy in the group . His legs were like trees , anyway I told him to round house kick me as hard as he could , and he did , the funny thing is I didn't feel a whole lot of force through my arms when he kicked . 

But the force of his kick actually went straight down to my stance and actually moved me about a foot to the right , so even though he physically moved my whole body , my angles did not collapse and I suffered no injury to my arms .

 When I was at my best I could actually put red stripes across peoples shins through two layers of leg pads , but having said that , no a Garn Sau is not my first choice because it is passive I prefer to use Seung Bong with a Wing Chun side kick . 

But Garn Sau is still a fine technique but it requires a lot of training , so don't think that it can't with stand a lot of heavy force because with a well trained practitioner it can .


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 22, 2009)

> As for WC/WT being defeated in the "ring" or competition. I'm still waiting to see WC/WT technique in the ring. I found a guy in NY that's using WT in the cage and is winning. But, it seems that when that happens, people complain that he didn't go the ground or do enough ground fighting. Arghhh! frustrating.


 
No, I didn't mean in the ring. I meant generaly. I know a couple of WT guys who got their arses kicked by some people on the street. And I doubt the other guy was a better Chisao-er or had a superior form  You can find WC beaten in the ring. The first case that comes to mind is a bigger guy who goes into the cage against a groundfighter. You even see the man sao wu sao. The guy is knocked out in the first 20secs. Forgive me if I don't find you the link. But I'm sure if you type bullshido WC into youtube one of the compilations will have it. Now sure you could argue that the guy wasn't good/experienced enough. Or even that he wasn't realy using WC by your definition.

Well, the whole point of my post was that WC has all the answers. Allthough we humans are not so perfect and can't allways react to situtations the way WC expects of us. Basicly what WC says is: try to hit the guy, if something is in the way redirect his energy and finish him of with the least amount of energy in the least amount of time doing the biggest amount of deamege possible! And we also train to try to achieve it. But gee, thanks... Easier said then done. For the sake of argument I will choose Emin Boztepe. I think we can agree that he's at least as good as the best Chunner here(as an understatement). If somebody thinks he's better then.... Well good for you!  He is the Dai-Sifu of his own organisations, one of the top students of Leaun Ting and one of the best Chunners in the world. His Chi Sao with Michael Casey is described on youtube as the best ChiSao demonstration EVER! When you seem him do seminars it looks like wow, how come everybody doesn't do WC?! He does the simplest, most effective techniques against any attack. How can you do better then that? It looks like poetry 

But then you look at his only documented "fight". Yes I'm talking about the one with William Cheung. His WC there is alot less then by the book WC. Many say that fight was a disgrace to WC everywhere. He even goes to the ground instead of feeling his opening and strike one of his vitals on the centerline and finishing the fight in 2,5seconds. He was probalby even open a couple of times :O

I personaly see absolutely nothing wrong with that fight. Emin takes away the guys structure and basicly pounds him on the ground where Cheung could do little. But the fact reamins; when one of the best Chunners out there "applys" his teachings it isn't as poetical as on his demons. The guy even resisted less then a guy in on of his better demos  It's also true that Emin defeated the guy with ease and efficiency and I also think that he did so in huge amount becouse of WC. The point is WC teaches you effective stuff, but if you can't use WC to it's full potential then use something else. If the opportunity arises, sweap the guy and take the fight to the floor, kick a roundhouse kick whatever. It realy depends on the situation and on the moment.

I write this all to make a point. Many people train WC. People in MMA, streetfighters, enthusiast etc. But why aren't all these people undefeated with such a great system? Well basicly becouse it's easier said then done. I think if you master 5% of WC you will probably be the best fighter in the world.



> In my opinion Garn Sau gets a bad rap , the only problem that I have with it is that it is a bit of a passive technique by itself . Where ever possible it should be coupled with an aggressive technique like a thrusting heel kick .


 
Funny  You guys acctualy described in the last few posts how that WT guy got kicked in the head  He went into a tan rying to throw the guy while kicking at the same time at the hip, bladder area. The TKD guy did a sidejumping roundhouse kick(for a lack of a better term). Thus the guy had nothing to kick. He later comented that he shouldn't have been fulling arround and should have just went in. And that would probably be nough to nulify the kicks power yes. But who knows. Again easier said the done. Hard to step in at a good kicker who takes distance to his advantage.



> It is one of the more difficult techniques to learn and very painful in the early stages , I used to go home with bruises on my arms the size of golf balls . I reckon it took about a year before I could do a good Garn Sau against a heavy , fast kick with out suffering any ill effects .


 
If you had so many bruises and took so long to condition your arm, don't you think that wasn't quite WC-ish. I mean, what about not going force against force? Thats the reason we didn't do a gan in such a manner. We mostly did it against arm attacks.



> Once I had a huge monster of a man in my class , I'm talking huge , well it was our school policy to always when teaching demonstrate on the biggest guy in the group . His legs were like trees , anyway I told him to round house kick me as hard as he could , and he did , the funny thing is I didn't feel a whole lot of force through my arms when he kicked .
> 
> But the force of his kick actually went straight down to my stance and actually moved me about a foot to the right , so even though he physically moved my whole body , my angles did not collapse and I suffered no injury to my arms .


 
I don't know about that monster kick but I'm quite sure that most good Muay Thai guys can break your arm with their well conditioned shin. Something similar like: 



. Kicks are very strong; it's not a good idea to go against a *good *kicker force against force. Against a bad one it doesn't realy matter. And body structure doesn't help with your bone intergrety. You can absorb most of the kicks power with your superior structure but you may stil break your arm. We mostly did cutting angle stuf with kicks. Not saying they were more realistic. Infact I had quite a few discussions with my instructor about kicks and solutions against them becouse they are relay very harder to dill with then against arms. If fighting against a good kicker ofcourse.



> But Garn Sau is still a fine technique but it requires a lot of training , so don't think that it can't with stand a lot of heavy force because with a well trained practitioner it can .


 
Well I guess you could condition to take it but I wonder; with all this training/conditioning needed to handle a kick, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just do something totaly against WC and jump back for example-out of the guys range?


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 22, 2009)

I agree concerning the Gan Sao problem with round house kicks...problem is most WC guys do not conditioning them selves like Muay Thai guys. A skilled MT guy will kick his shins upagainst a heavy bag, tires and a tree. Our guards need to be as hard as their legs. We need to use force against the wooden man to project this type of force. When you use gan sau you can not just place up there an wait to catch the kick. You have to smash the kick with the gan sau. Use force against the kick other wise your hands will be pushed back into your face an your hit. Arms should be conditioning of course. An proper use of power should be trained. You should also practice blocking hard roundhouses with others as well. This will harden your guards and your weak shins if you don't have previous conditioning!

There was a Wing Chun Sifu who spoke about kicks...I will share some of their sayings as well.






			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1108549 said:
			
		

> Well heel/stop kicks where one of the things I was refering to when I spoke abou things that work well in theory but not so much in practice(for me). At least when I spar good kickers. Imagine a guy who is a good kicker and his whole gameplay is distance and he knows how to keep it and use it to his benefit. Now when I'm facing a guy like that and I don't realy know if he's gonna throw a jab or a kick at me, I find it hard to "catch" his foot with my heel. But that may be a thing that I personaly suck at.
> 
> About hands against kicks; I was thought by my WC instructor that if you can help it you don't want to do that. And I must say I agree for most situations. For this exact techniques you speak of(if I understan which one you mean), I think this one is very popular with WT people. The one where you do a Gan sao and then go to a high tan sao or a biu tan? People like Leung Ting and Emin like to demonstrate it so that they catch the kick with the Gan and then throw the guy with the tan. Looks very cool  But I think thats the exact technique the WT guy that was kicked in the head by a good kicker(the story I spoke of in some posts earlier) used. The problem is that if the kicker is good and you do that, the kick is gonna go threw to your head even if it was first directed to your mid area(you acctualy guide it higher). Allthough against most people(and kickers who get offbalanced quickly) it's gonna work. If you only use a Gan sao against a kick I would imagine too that you could get screwed against a good kicker. Especialy by some Muay Thaiers well conditioned shin. They have pretty powerful kicks. I acctualy saw a MT guy knock a guy out on the street with a kick to the head. Allthough kicks to the head are pretty rare on the street but are still something to consider!


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 22, 2009)

> I agree concerning the Gan Sao problem with round house kicks...problem is most WC guys do not conditioning them selves like Muay Thai guys. A skilled MT guy will kick his shins upagainst a heavy bag, tires and a tree. Our guards need to be as hard as their legs. We need to use force against the wooden man to project this type of force. When you use gan sau you can not just place up there an wait to catch the kick. You have to smash the kick with the gan sau. Use force against the kick other wise your hands will be pushed back into your face an your hit. Arms should be conditioning of course. An proper use of power should be trained. You should also practice blocking hard roundhouses with others as well. This will harden your guards and your weak shins if you don't have previous conditioning!
> 
> There was a Wing Chun Sifu who spoke about kicks...I will share some of their sayings as well.


 
Yes, legs are a problem. As AMP-Ryu said, they have longer reach and are a lot stronger the hands. *Especialy *when used by a trained kicker.

Look, I'm not saying conditioning arms isn't necesery. I will not say it's a bad thing either or that it doesn't work. I would like to ask if it is the WC approach? As I interpret it this can't be more against WC principals. You use force against force, all so you want to condition yourself to take a conditioned strike. Ok, WC principals say nothing against conditioning but isn't trying to be stronger then your opponent against WC thought? Plus it doesn't solve anything. You'll never have the most conditioned bones or the hardest blocks/strikes. I thought WC was soppose to go against strenght with skill and understanding of angles and stronger force redirection?

Again I'm not saying these approaches are wrong. And I do muscle training, conditioning and stretching myself. But we're talking WC here. Arent we?


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 22, 2009)

Execellent Post. Actually Wing Chun uses both External and Internal sides of combat. It uses both hard and soft...But if you through up a soft  gan sao to a hard round house kick...instant break. I mean your soft arm will become a limb broken arm. The Gan Sau is offensive movement. 

Please check out WC Kuit Kuen and the comments of WC sifu's

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm


http://www.springtimesong.com/wcseminar.htm

*Sifu Wang Kiu said*: "_Against a roundhouse kick you cannot do a passive block. The kick will drive your hands into your face. You have to smash the kick. _"

So when you distrupt and intercept the force. Then you can turn it off or uproot. For instance. You use Gan Sau to attack the round house kick or Pak sau to attack the gaurds with force. Gan Sau should be employed to punish the kickers leg. An make them wish they never kicked like that. Once you kick their leg cutting into the nerves in shin there stance will be disrupted. Making it harder for them to gain composer in that second. Before the foot retracts immediately go to tan sau, jut sau or simply dump them. Once you make contact trap the leg and redirect the force. The Deflection comes when you twist and rotate the wrist of that arms as your gan sau smashes the kick. If you have weak block your arm will get broken. You have to turn that force off. 

Do this an tell me what you think. Have someone through multiple round houses at you. on monday. Block with soft blocks and block you want...

Then on tuesday use your arms to smash their kicks. 

Tell me which one hurts your arms the most?


*Other techniques against kicks* 
http://www.springtimesong.com/wckicking.htm

*Dangers of weak gan sau with out conditioning...*
_Two students of Wong Shun Leung got their arms broken from roundhouse kicks when they tried to apply a Gan sau in a tournament held in Japan_.




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1109007 said:
			
		

> Yes, legs are a problem. As AMP-Ryu said, they have longer reach and are a lot stronger the hands. *Especialy *when used by a trained kicker.
> 
> Look, I'm not saying conditioning arms isn't necesery. I will not say it's a bad thing either or that it doesn't work. I would like to ask if it is the WC approach? As I interpret it this can't be more against WC principals. You use force against force, all so you want to condition yourself to take a conditioned strike. Ok, WC principals say nothing against conditioning but isn't trying to be stronger then your opponent against WC thought? Plus it doesn't solve anything. You'll never have the most conditioned bones or the hardest blocks/strikes. I thought WC was soppose to go against strenght with skill and understanding of angles and stronger force redirection?
> 
> Again I'm not saying these approaches are wrong. And I do muscle training, conditioning and stretching myself. But we're talking WC here. Arent we?


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 22, 2009)

> Execellent Post. Actually Wing Chun uses both External and Internal sides of combat. It uses both hard and soft...But if you through up a soft gan sao to a hard round house kick...instant break. I mean your soft arm will become a limb broken arm. The Gan Sau is offensive movement.
> 
> Please check out WC Kuit Kuen and the comments of WC sifu's


 
I think I read threw all those maxims before. Thanks anyway! I agree that WC is both internal/external and soft/hard. Allthough I don't belive WC goes hard against hard. I thought it teaches to go soft against hard and hard against soft!

And I wasn't talking about soft gan or hard gan, I was talking about that to me this particular technique looks like a clash and in a clash a stronger bone will win. Probably it works agains most people but I feel very strong about that if you do this against a competant kicker it can't end good for your arm(even if you do stop his kick from hitting the intended target).



> Do this an tell me what you think. Have someone through multiple round houses at you. on monday. Block with soft blocks and block you want...
> 
> Then on tuesday use your arms to smash their kicks.
> 
> Tell me which one hurts your arms the most?


 
Ok, I will not just dismiss what you say and will actualy try this out the next time I'll meet with my training buddies! I'll ask them to hit with medium strength and then they'll slowly increase. But I must say I have a bad feeling about this  Even about the smashing-Gan one...



> *Dangers of weak gan sau with out conditioning...*
> _Two students of Wong Shun Leung got their arms broken from roundhouse kicks when they tried to apply a Gan sau in a tournament held in Japan_.


 
This kind of prooves what I've been saying. Plus the way I interpret WC is that its techniques should work without any conditioning. I think WC techniques when done correctly should work for a skinny women too, not just for people who have devoted there lives to kung fu and conditioning.

I thought that was the point of WC? Am I the only one that feels this way?


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 22, 2009)

If someone throws a punch at you tan sau bong sau or pak sau?

Would it be wrong to punch the arm coming at you. Before the fist makes contact why not punch their arm. Is it wrong to punch someone in the guards? Why not punch their hand or fist they are holding up...

What about punishment techniques. I understand what your saying...an your right...Wing Chun does use soft force against hard force. But sometimes you can use soft force concealed in hard. But as for the stronger arm scenario. I gurantee you if all you practice is form and soft arm drills with a partner the minute someone bangs your arms your going into total shock. You will not be able to handle the pressure. You need to adapt. There are numerous stories I read about wing chun masters who use techniques that cause damage. Like one guy use gum sau on a kickers leg. The result was the kicker knee was broken. How did the Sifu do this. He practices iron palm techniques. So dropping down force on the knee broke the kickers leg. 

If your practicing Wing Chun an are willing to conditioning your body...be it stamina, strength, flexibilty, agility etc that someone who has harness all these skills will whoop yo head in.

You should concentrate on increasing
Timing
balance
root
strength
power
accuracy
speed
flexibilty

along with some others I did not mention...If two people have equal skills the winner will be who ever is stronger. If someone is stronger but has less skills then the most skilled guy will win. But you must be aware that being strong fast or agile will allow you have an advantage. You can be anyone to start learning WC. But just because your out of shape and have no breath doesn't mean you will remain that way. You should progress and get better...

*Sifu Wang Kiu said*: "_Against a roundhouse kick you cannot do a passive block. The kick will drive your hands into your face. You have to smash the kick. _"

This is what this Sifu said...I can find numerous post which says to use force. Especially against a weaker opponent. You should redirect and deflect but also smashing your opponents structure is not bad either...use both soft and hard.

But your right Wing Chun is about going soft against hard. But you can also use hard techniques against attacks as well. But you don't try to wrestle your opponent or force a trap...





			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1109118 said:
			
		

> I think I read threw all those maxims before. Thanks anyway! I agree that WC is both internal/external and soft/hard. Allthough I don't belive WC goes hard against hard. I thought it teaches to go soft against hard and hard against soft!
> 
> And I wasn't talking about soft gan or hard gan, I was talking about that to me this particular technique looks like a clash and in a clash a stronger bone will win. Probably it works agains most people but I feel very strong about that if you do this against a competant kicker it can't end good for your arm(even if you do stop his kick from hitting the intended target).
> 
> ...


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## mook jong man (Jan 22, 2009)

Its not a matter of conditioning the arms for Garn Sau it is a matter of skill , the reason it took me about a year and all the bruises was because my timing was off and I wasn't spreading the force up my arm properly .

 I don't believe you understand the technique , I am talking about standing there and as the kick comes in you are pivoting into the kick , spreading the force over your whole arm , the bad thing about it is that your timing has to be perfect and as you make contact you have to continue pivoting to absorb the force .

The problem I have with it is that you have to wait for the person to initiate the kick and get the timing perfect instead of initiating your own attack . As I said before I would prefer to use a Seung Bong with a Wing Chun side kick or just burst into them with a charging knee a move that can cover about 2 and a half metres .

 If he is doing a jumping kick and he is in the air then that is a committed movement and I might just decide to move out of the way or I could move in with a double palm strike a very powerful move and knock him out of the sky . 

You seem to be under the impression that I have only taught newbies , a large percentage of people I have taught have been people from other arts that for what ever reason thought that what ever they were learning before was'nt working for them so they came to us , and yes I've even taught a Thai boxer and TKD people , there was something in Wing Chun that appealed to these peoples sense of logic .

 Against a Thai boxer of course I'm not going to test my Garn Sau I'm not retarded those guys practice round kicks as much as we practice chain punches , he will only get one chance to kick me before I'm sticking to him like white on rice , and if he manages to get away from me to create space I will follow him with chain kicking specifically low heel kicks to shin and knees and hook kicks to thighs .

 As for the people who got their arms broken in a tournament , how do we even know how experienced they were , even if they did come from a Wong Shun Leung School they might not have trained for very long .

 I could train at a Wong Shun Leung school for two weeks and enter a tournament and get the crap beaten out of me , so what , it doesn't mean his school is crap or teaches crap techniques it just means that I am crap and couldn't apply the techniques properly .

 In my time I have met Wing Chun practitioners who couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag , on the other hand I have met practitioners who would rip your head off and piss down your neck . All of this stuff about this versus that its all hypothetical , remember always it is the singer not the song .


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 23, 2009)

> Would it be wrong to punch the arm coming at you. Before the fist makes contact why not punch their arm. Is it wrong to punch someone in the guards? Why not punch their hand or fist they are holding up...
> 
> What about punishment techniques. I understand what your saying...an your right...Wing Chun does use soft force against hard force. But sometimes you can use soft force concealed in hard. But as for the stronger arm scenario. I gurantee you if all you practice is form and soft arm drills with a partner the minute someone bangs your arms your going into total shock. You will not be able to handle the pressure. You need to adapt. There are numerous stories I read about wing chun masters who use techniques that cause damage. Like one guy use gum sau on a kickers leg. The result was the kicker knee was broken. How did the Sifu do this. He practices iron palm techniques. So dropping down force on the knee broke the kickers leg.


 
You can do whatever you want. I would do whatever I felt like was apropriate in a fight. But that was not my point. My point was that this technique(as I understand it) is not the most WC response to the situation and it wouldn't work for a weak person fighting a guy with superior atributes. I believe that every WC techniques should at least in theory work against a guy with superior atributes if done correctly. This technique we're talking about has no chance if done by a weak guy fighting Crocop. But being WC, at least in theory, a techniques should be able to work against such a guy. And becouse you talk so much about conditioning I feel thats like preparing for a clash. Thats why we mostly used half intercepting half cutting motions against round attacks. Neither intercepting neither fully cutting. Mostly at 45 or more degrees to the kick. It would be hard for me to explain what we did as none of the movement have I seen in any other form on youtube, or done by any other WC guy plus I don't know the names. Also I dound out in another thread that even simple techniques are hard to explain on a forum.

Again, I'm not saying these approaches are wrong. Acctualy I honestly believe that no approach is wrong if it works. But if it is truly according to WC thats another story.



> But as for the stronger arm scenario. I gurantee you if all you practice is form and soft arm drills with a partner the minute someone bangs your arms your going into total shock. You will not be able to handle the pressure. You need to adapt. There are numerous stories I read about wing chun masters who use techniques that cause damage. Like one guy use gum sau on a kickers leg. The result was the kicker knee was broken. How did the Sifu do this. He practices iron palm techniques. So dropping down force on the knee broke the kickers leg.


 
I get the feeling that either I'm doing a poor job at explaining(which is very plausible as I'm not a very good rhetoric) or you're not reading my posts. I agree with you! And no, all I practice isn't soft drills and forms. I practice alot of stuff(as I mentioned before). Alot of stuff thats got to do with fighting but nothing with WC. But again, thats not the point! The point/the question was: is this response true to WC? Not that it's wrong or wouldn't work on most people.



> *Sifu Wang Kiu said*: "_Against a roundhouse kick you cannot do a passive block. The kick will drive your hands into your face. You have to smash the kick. _"


 
True, but smashing the kick isn't the answer either in my opinion. And if even if GM Ip Man says something does that neceserely make it true? If you understand it and you agree with it it's all it matters. If you don't... Well than either you can't for whatever reason or the technique is perhaps not so perfect?



> Its not a matter of conditioning the arms for Garn Sau it is a matter of skill , the reason it took me about a year and all the bruises was because my timing was off and I wasn't spreading the force up my arm properly .
> 
> I don't believe you understand the technique , I am talking about standing there and as the kick comes in you are pivoting into the kick , spreading the force over your whole arm , the bad thing about it is that your timing has to be perfect and as you make contact you have to continue pivoting to absorb the force .


 
That is very possible. Again, techniques realy are hard to explain over the forum. I would like to ask you the thing I said to Yoshi; does you're version of the technique have a theoretical chance of succeeding when done correctly by a weak women pratitioner against a Crocop type of roundhouse kick?



> You seem to be under the impression that I have only taught newbies , a large percentage of people I have taught have been people from other arts that for what ever reason thought that what ever they were learning before was'nt working for them so they came to us , and yes I've even taught a Thai boxer and TKD people , there was something in Wing Chun that appealed to these peoples sense of logic .
> 
> Against a Thai boxer of course I'm not going to test my Garn Sau I'm not retarded those guys practice round kicks as much as we practice chain punches , he will only get one chance to kick me before I'm sticking to him like white on rice , and if he manages to get away from me to create space I will follow him with chain kicking specifically low heel kicks to shin and knees and hook kicks to thighs .


 
This seems to be getting rather personal. Look I am honestly not under the impresion that you haven't thought good/great people, neither did I sudgest it. So(and I'm saying this with no cynism or sarcasm at all) you're saying that technique works against those Muay Thai/TKD student of yours when they kick you realisticly? If you're answer is yes, then I must be missing something and will seriously explore this technique!



> Against a Thai boxer of course I'm not going to test my Garn Sau I'm not retarded those guys practice round kicks as much as we practice chain punches , he will only get one chance to kick me before I'm sticking to him like white on rice , and if he manages to get away from me to create space I will follow him with chain kicking specifically low heel kicks to shin and knees and hook kicks to thighs .


 
Ok, sorry. I see you answered that allready  Well that was all I wanted to say. That was my point. No offence, realy! Didn't mean to say your kung fu sucks or something like that.



> As for the people who got their arms broken in a tournament , how do we even know how experienced they were , even if they did come from a Wong Shun Leung School they might not have trained for very long .
> 
> I could train at a Wong Shun Leung school for two weeks and enter a tournament and get the crap beaten out of me , so what , it doesn't mean his school is crap or teaches crap techniques it just means that I am crap and couldn't apply the techniques properly


 
Thats very true.



> In my time I have met Wing Chun practitioners who couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag , on the other hand I have met practitioners who would rip your head off and piss down your neck . All of this stuff about this versus that its all hypothetical , remember always it is the singer not the song .


 
I agree. Especialy with the last statement about the singer and the song. Thats one of the points I wanted to make in this posts(if you read them). And yes this is very hypothetical. And in realyity/sparring fighting I'm not this picky, but I think it would be well to define what techniques are WC and what aren't. Instead one yould go practice JKD with an emphasis on WC.


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## Si-Je (Jan 23, 2009)

Thank you Mook Jong Man about Garn sau.
I was freaking out there for a minute! No conditioning of the arms! No! No! No!
You'll NEVER get your arms in condition to withstand a conditioned leg! 
Garn Sau is just another deflection.  You must contine to move forward into the opponent's leg. your gan sau rides up the leg as it turns into tan sau, it's tan sau at the end that puts them on their butt.
No force, no contitioning. forward pressure, forward movement, 100% deflection.  If you stop or hesitate you will get hurt.  
I wouldn't recomend accompaning it with a heel kick to the core of the opponent simply because this would stop your forward movement, or at least lessen it.  Plus it would take longer, you have to get into the inside of that roundhouse kick fast.

It is better used as it comes and not trying to force it or anticipate the kick to use right off the bat in applicaiton or sparring. It is kinda like an "oh ****" move, being that if your caught off guard, or faked out and are already stepping into the attacker and they kick for your head when you didn't forsee that, then it's best to use garn sau.  If you try to force it and use it when it's just "not there" it'll hurt.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks Si Je! I think I understand where you guys are coming from better now!



> I wouldn't recomend accompaning it with a heel kick to the core of the opponent simply because this would stop your forward movement, or at least lessen it. Plus it would take longer, you have to get into the inside of that roundhouse kick fast.


 
Yea that was probably the main problem in that WT guys approach...


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## mook jong man (Jan 23, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Thank you Mook Jong Man about Garn sau.
> I was freaking out there for a minute! No conditioning of the arms! No! No! No!
> You'll NEVER get your arms in condition to withstand a conditioned leg!
> Garn Sau is just another deflection. You must contine to move forward into the opponent's leg. your gan sau rides up the leg as it turns into tan sau, it's tan sau at the end that puts them on their butt.
> ...


 
Yes , thats what I meant really , it is almost like a flinch response , it would be used when you see something coming to the side of the head and you havent got time to get your leg up or do anything else.

As for the scenario of  a small woman trying to use a Garn Sau against one of Cro Cops kicks , we have to apply commonsense here , even if she was sufficiently skilled the discrepancy in size , weight and strength would be too great . 

It would be like standing there waiting for someone to swing a baseball bat at your head , she would be better off moving in close to where the speed of the attacking leg is not so great .

 In my opinion highly skilled fighters aren't out on the streets and in the pubs picking fights anyway , they know what they are capable of and  do all their fighting at training and in the ring .

 The ones you see on the streets starting trouble are the Wannabees and the Try Hards .


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 23, 2009)

Thats true. I agree. But I think we all understand where we're coming from better. I think we agree/look at things the same.


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## Si-Je (Jan 23, 2009)

When I do garn sau on Sifu I incorporate the elbow strike to the chest with the other arm. Like Sifu Fung does alot in his videos and demos. Where you step into the guy and hit them with same pressure of wrist, forearm, and elbow. (can't think of what it's called)
This allows me to "attack" the weight and mass of Sifu hubbie to keep me from collapsing, getting knocked over, and adding the extra forward force needed on a drastically larger opponent.

Like what the gal does in the Sifu Fun women's self defense here at 36 seconds.




As you flow from gon sau to tan sau, you take the other arm and elbow the chest like she does here.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 23, 2009)

Okay if I offended you Mook Jong I am sorry thats my intent. I had to remember that I learn too versions of applications. With Yuen Kay San version there is both hard and soft techniques. I typically use what techniques are easier for me. Some of harder techniques work better on stronger opponents because I am smaller. Its harder to explain. Some of hard techniques I would never use against weak opponent because It would be too much force and easy for them to redirect me. But a stronger opponent I found that banging their arms tapping the points between their hard muscles makes their arms drop right away. I use both direction,deflection and cutting nerves techniques. Different people use different techniques. Sum Nung was also known as iron arms. Because he was conditioning that way. Yuen Kay San master the Iron Sand Palm so he condition his arms and hands to be hard. Although he only use his palms hard and his arms he merely deflected and reidrected his bigger opponents mostly.

I totally agree with you. I just I am coming into the knowledge alot of what i learn many WC people do not know about or practice as well. Many of the things you do we also do. But in addition to that we also hard techniques. Now as for strategy against a smaller opponent I usually go down the middle with force against bigger opponent I usually go around them flank one of their sides an trap and attack. of course in both situtations I use a combination of hard and soft entry techniques. I understand what you guys are talking about. But the problem I have is most of people I spar with understand the soft side. So using soft technique against 350lb  6 foot 2 guy isnt going to work. But if Pak his guards down an make him tense up when he feels a hard shock going through his arms forces him to lock up. Then i can slide through his guards an strike or simple turn his force off with a soft technique while punching. 

But I am not getting personal. I am sorry if anyone taking it that way.

I am not speaking on soft side in this thread because I wanted to know does anyone practice the hard side...There are Wc sifu's who use exclusively hard techniques and there are some who use exclusively soft techniques. My Sifu uses exclusively soft techniques and his Sihing uses exclusively hard. But now the sihing is startiung to use more soft techniques. I will share some more info I have found from other sifu's from other lineages later...

But just because a technique is done differently I think it will still be WC...as long as it seeks to bridge or destroy the bridge, attack and defend the center line, move on linear paths, posseses encomnomy of emotion, and has the three terrors of WC!

Thats a WC art if it has these qualities?

Wouldn't you agree?



Si-Je said:


> When I do garn sau on Sifu I incorporate the elbow strike to the chest with the other arm. Like Sifu Fung does alot in his videos and demos. Where you step into the guy and hit them with same pressure of wrist, forearm, and elbow. (can't think of what it's called)
> This allows me to "attack" the weight and mass of Sifu hubbie to keep me from collapsing, getting knocked over, and adding the extra forward force needed on a drastically larger opponent.
> 
> Like what the gal does in the Sifu Fun women's self defense here at 36 seconds.
> ...


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 23, 2009)

> But just because a technique is done differently I think it will still be WC...as long as it seeks to bridge or destroy the bridge, attack and defend the center line, move on linear paths, posseses encomnomy of emotion, and has the three terrors of WC!
> 
> Thats a WC art if it has these qualities?
> 
> Wouldn't you agree?


 
I personaly wouldn't. But thats just my opinion. But if that is how you define WC then I realy don't understand how you see Sysstema and WC as oranges and apples. If thats how you see wc, then Systema is WC. Well, I don't know about Fook Sao but I'm sure I've seen them do Tan Saos and Bong Saos multiple times!


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## mook jong man (Jan 23, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> When I do garn sau on Sifu I incorporate the elbow strike to the chest with the other arm. Like Sifu Fung does alot in his videos and demos. Where you step into the guy and hit them with same pressure of wrist, forearm, and elbow. (can't think of what it's called)
> This allows me to "attack" the weight and mass of Sifu hubbie to keep me from collapsing, getting knocked over, and adding the extra forward force needed on a drastically larger opponent.
> 
> Like what the gal does in the Sifu Fun women's self defense here at 36 seconds.
> ...


 
Si-Je we called that technique " The Fail Safe Armgrab Counter " it is used against some one who has grabbed you in a cross arm grab and is pulling you in , you resist at first so he grabs harder . 

Then you go with his force and collapse your arm into a elbow strike to the sternum . IF it is a same side armgrab then you move in with your Tan Sau and a palm strike to face or chest .

I apologise to everybody for sounding a bit irritable but in my defence I am on a new anti anxiety drug that is having some side effects and I will just have to ride them out until I get used to it . 

Sorry if I offended anyone and may we continue to learn from each other and maybe have a few laughs along the way .


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 23, 2009)

If someone arms couldn't lift up pass their chest. So they could punch. Would it be wrong for them kick high?

Would doing high kicks if thats your only option would it not be WC?




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1110027 said:
			
		

> I personaly wouldn't. But thats just my opinion. But if that is how you define WC then I realy don't understand how you see Sysstema and WC as oranges and apples. If thats how you see wc, then Systema is WC. Well, I don't know about Fook Sao but I'm sure I've seen them do Tan Saos and Bong Saos multiple times!


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 24, 2009)

> Si-Je we called that technique " The Fail Safe Armgrab Counter " it is used against some one who has grabbed you in a cross arm grab and is pulling you in , you resist at first so he grabs harder .
> 
> Then you go with his force and collapse your arm into a elbow strike to the sternum . IF it is a same side armgrab then you move in with your Tan Sau and a palm strike to face or chest .
> 
> ...


 
Ha, interesting. I was thinking that that kind of technique would be kind of overcommited;you could walk stright into a punch, but now that you explain it that way it actualy makes sense. Something like the second technique you mention would be my first choice too. Will have to try the technique Si-Je posted too.

I see how you could have seen my doubting as a provocation. The thing is(and the reason why I say to Yoshi WC is not just 3terrors, straight line attacks, bridgin etc.,) it is a very complex art. And without you seeing the energies involved in the technique you can't realy understand the technique. To explain what I mean: I feel that WC techniques done with none WC energies aren't neceserely WC. Techniques of WC are just some smart, strong, efficient structures but I feel  the escence of WC is in its application. Something interesting: I can find *all *of the boxing moves, positions, attacks etc., in the 3 empty-hand WC forms. And sometimes, a "boxing" response, I feel is even the most WC response to the situation. Allthough I think boxing is quite diffrent from WC in its approach to fighting. Do you follow what I'm saying? Hope I explained well what I mean.



> If someone arms couldn't lift up pass their chest. So they could punch. Would it be wrong for them kick high?
> 
> Would doing high kicks if thats your only option would it not be WC?


 
Sure, I belive it would be. But if your hands can be lift up pass your chest, then a highkick, I believe, wouldn't be WC. But I also feel that in anycase(you can or cannot lift your hands up to your chest), if you can deliver a highkick to the head and not getting hurt in the process yourself, it is a good thing. Not neceserely WC, but it could end a fight even faster/with less movements if done in a right situtaion in a right moment.


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## Si-Je (Jan 24, 2009)

Mook Jong, we practice the cross wrist grab defense with the elbow to the sternum too. I just added the elbow to garn sau kinda by accident.
When I was first learning garn sau defending against a roundhouse kick, the guys I was working with were really really big.  (to me.! lol!) And as you come in with garn sau so close to their chest I actually smacked face first into their chest a couple of times. Ouch!
So, the elbow started popping up to ensure I keep MY space as I take away theirs.
So garn sau for me became: Garn sau, stepping in with raising tan sau, at the same time rolling to the elbow with the free hand.  The elbow coupled with the raising tan sau really makes them fly backwards, and keeps my face from smashing into their chest. lol!
Besides, after you do the raising tan sau you kinda have the other arm just hanging out there. You can't always punch them with it because their already falling back or down, so the elbow just naturally pops up into that position for me.  Just a weird Si-Je thing.  

Oh Mook! I broke a VERY large student's structure today just like that chi guy in Sifu Fungs school videos! Tony Psaila. I've been watching those and focusing more on my chi lately.  
He's about 6ft. and 290lbs, and I was showing him to relax as he latches and talking about breaking the opponent's structure, then I just kinda chopped him in the waist (really lazy and floppy like) and it kinda crumpled him downward like his knees buckled and forced him back about two steps.  So cool! It really freaked him out too. (I had to play all cool like I just knew that would happen like that all along. lol! no, really, I laughed and told him that was the first time I'd ever done that!   )  
What's even more amazing, is that I was able to do it again and again.  Not something I'm usually able to do when I first get a new WC technique.  It usually comes, and then promptly flys away again only to return sporatically. (much to the consternation of my Sifu. lol!)  But, this was actually consistant. Woot! Chi UP people! This is the coolest stuff in WC/WT!


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## mook jong man (Jan 25, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Mook Jong, we practice the cross wrist grab defense with the elbow to the sternum too. I just added the elbow to garn sau kinda by accident.
> When I was first learning garn sau defending against a roundhouse kick, the guys I was working with were really really big. (to me.! lol!) And as you come in with garn sau so close to their chest I actually smacked face first into their chest a couple of times. Ouch!
> So, the elbow started popping up to ensure I keep MY space as I take away theirs.
> So garn sau for me became: Garn sau, stepping in with raising tan sau, at the same time rolling to the elbow with the free hand. The elbow coupled with the raising tan sau really makes them fly backwards, and keeps my face from smashing into their chest. lol!
> ...


 
Thats really good it sounds like you are starting to be able generate that relaxed type of power that we are looking for , a type of power that does come more easily to the ladies because of their lack of musculature .

 I am very sorry that you don't have more women students Si -Je as you would have to be one of the most passionate Wing Chun people I have ever heard of  and that enthusiasm woud be passed on to your students . 

Another technique I just remembered against a round house kick when you are in close instead of doing a cross leg hook kick type of leg deflection , you do a knee strike into their inner thigh , same action as the hook kick .

But just close the angle in your leg so that the foot is in line with your knee and strike with the point of the knee into the soft part of the inner thigh .
 If he's still standing after that then carry on with the usual WC side kick to supporting leg.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 26, 2009)

Two Questions. If I am getting pumpeled in the face. An I shoot for the guys legs an drop him to the floor an mount him to chain punch his face...is that WC?

Also if someone has me in grab from behind. Like their arms around me with the wrist and hand interlocking infront of me. Would it be a wing chun for me to bend over. Grab their feet or foot an try to pull it between my legs up in the air. Causing them to let go and fall backwards.




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1110352 said:
			
		

> Ha, interesting. I was thinking that that kind of technique would be kind of overcommited;you could walk stright into a punch, but now that you explain it that way it actualy makes sense. Something like the second technique you mention would be my first choice too. Will have to try the technique Si-Je posted too.
> 
> I see how you could have seen my doubting as a provocation. The thing is(and the reason why I say to Yoshi WC is not just 3terrors, straight line attacks, bridgin etc.,) it is a very complex art. And without you seeing the energies involved in the technique you can't realy understand the technique. To explain what I mean: I feel that WC techniques done with none WC energies aren't neceserely WC. Techniques of WC are just some smart, strong, efficient structures but I feel the escence of WC is in its application. Something interesting: I can find *all *of the boxing moves, positions, attacks etc., in the 3 empty-hand WC forms. And sometimes, a "boxing" response, I feel is even the most WC response to the situation. Allthough I think boxing is quite diffrent from WC in its approach to fighting. Do you follow what I'm saying? Hope I explained well what I mean.
> 
> ...


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 26, 2009)

Yoshi, what is the point of this questions? Are you trying to make a point and I don't see it? Besides do you rely care if I consider it WC or not? I'm sure that after 15 years of training WC you have formed your own opinion on what is and what isn't WC.

But eventho I don't know what you're trying to achieve with this questions I will humor you and answer. In my opinion, no that wouldn't be WC. No in both cases. I say so becouse in both cases I feel there would be a reaction more sutible according to WC principals-less movement used, less energy, less comitment, more direct etc.

I think if you're getting pumpled in the face you should take care of those punches and WC tells you how to do that. Besides just droping down to go for a takedown while you're being attacked exposes you to all kind of difrent attacks in my opinion. Some even more dangerous than punches to the face; you risk getting a knee to the face, elbows/punches to the neck. And as for me personaly I would avoid the ground if I can; I feel I can defend myself better on the feet then on the ground(even tho I have some groundfighting training). Plus I think many people have established here, that on the ground, you are more vulnurable to being kicked by other potential attackers/friends of the guy you took to the ground.

If somebody grabs me from behind I like to go for the balls, heabutts, knee kicks... All of this I feel is more true to WC.

As I said I define WC as something very specific and very hard to achieve. But thats my personaly thing. Similar like diffrent people define what is fun for them diffrently. Don't be too focused on it. I would like to know what your point is tho...

And some questions for you:
Yoshi, if I do Systema techniques on a guy, is that WC? What about if I use BJJ or if I use boxing?

How do you define WC?

Would you say that your examples are WC? Why?

If I use chainpunching, tan, bong, fook, spinkicks, jumpkicks, haymakers am I doing WC?


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## Si-Je (Jan 26, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Two Questions. If I am getting pumpeled in the face. An I shoot for the guys legs an drop him to the floor an mount him to chain punch his face...is that WC?
> 
> Also if someone has me in grab from behind. Like their arms around me with the wrist and hand interlocking infront of me. Would it be a wing chun for me to bend over. Grab their feet or foot an try to pull it between my legs up in the air. Causing them to let go and fall backwards.


 
I'm not sure about the first one being WC, but it seems it would be a hybrid. The shoot in could be something like chinese wrestling, etc.. and the last part of it is definate WT anti-grappling.  Although many WT/WC practitioners don't concider anti-grappling to be "pure" WT.

The second one: isn't that a move in Bui Gee?  Where you bend over and reach between your legs and come back up?  I've seen that in a few versions of Bui Gee.
So, yeah, that would and could be WT/WC.


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## Si-Je (Jan 26, 2009)

Oh, and a good one for defending a rear bear hug with your arms pinned:  simoltaneously drop your center of gravity (squat) as you double dai sau, pivot when you get some "elbow" room, and elbow then in the ribs, continue to turn with the elbow and face the opponent to chainpunch out.

Love that move.


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## mook jong man (Jan 26, 2009)

Si - Je is correct about the bending over movement in Bil Gee , I was always told that one of the applications is to reach down and grab your opponents leg and pull him off balance . 

That's only if all your other techniques like counter bear hug movements , stamping on the foot , raking the edge of your foot down their shin , rear elbow strike etc have been used to no avail .

 Another application I heard of is when you have to get up off the ground , you always bring your hands up way over your head first as in the form this is to guard your head against a strike or an object like a bottle that maybe about to come crashing down on your head. The hands come up first and the head and rest of the body follow .


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## mook jong man (Jan 26, 2009)

Now that I think about it one of our standard techniques against a bear hug from behind is actually from the Bil Gee form . I have never realised it before because it is taught pretty early on in the curriculum to grade two when they have learnt the rudiments of pivoting . 

You are grabbed in rear bear hug , upper arms are pinned.
First thing you do is bring one hand up to latch over his hands and keep them pinned so he can't bring them up to choke you.
Then drop your weight down and stamp on his foot with your heel.
Next you have to do three moves simultaneously , as you start to pivot bring the arm up that is controlling his hands into a horizontal elbow strike position , just as though you were going to elbow strike some one in the face with a elbow while pivoting , make sure you still keep his hands pinned.
Continue to pivot around with your elbow pointing horizontal , then as you get to the end of your pivot , fire a rear elbow strike into him with your spare hand .
If this doesn't break his grip , immediately pivot back around to the other side and rear elbow strike with your other hand .
My particular favourite is to elbow strike and then palm slap the groin with the same hand.
Just forgetting the initial stamp kick on the attackers foot for a moment which will certainly distract him and keep his nervous system occupied for a little while .
The reason it works is because the attacker is taken slightly off balance when you drop your weight down. Then he is taken off balance again when you bring one of your arms up as this raises his arms on one side , while you are pivoting with the mass of your whole body and in turn opens his body up and gives you space to do a rear elbow strike .
In fact I have seen high level instructors throw people off with the force of their pivot and nothing else.
If you can visualise the technique you can see that it is straight out of Bil Gee with the pivoting elbow strikes from side to side and the spare hand returning to a chambered position which is actually a rear elbow strike application as well .


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## skinters (Jan 27, 2009)

this thread has gone from ,how much do you train to ...well im lost if you want to talk about wing chun technique,what works what dont work start another thread,its getting tough to follow all these random threads.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 27, 2009)

> That's only if all your other techniques like counter bear hug movements , stamping on the foot , raking the edge of your foot down their shin , rear elbow strike etc have been used to no avail .


 
Ok, I can understand that. But the ball strike, shin kicks etc., usualy have an effect  I was thought this technique that you and Yoshi mention when I trained TKD. But it just doesn't work for me.. Also people have tryed it on me when I bear huged them but one thing I notice is that instead if you're going to grab the guy at waist level, when he goes down to grab your leg(if you realy hold him) he's gonna lift you and won't be able to reach your legs. At other times(and when I grab lower so I can control more of the arms) they don't lift me but it's relatively easy to get the legs out of the way as it's a pretty big motion. Other times again, some people are just to strong that I could go down like that. Thats my experience, not saying that the technique is bad or anything.



> Now that I think about it one of our standard techniques against a bear hug from behind is actually from the Bil Gee form . I have never realised it before because it is taught pretty early on in the curriculum to grade two when they have learnt the rudiments of pivoting .
> 
> You are grabbed in rear bear hug , upper arms are pinned.
> First thing you do is bring one hand up to latch over his hands and keep them pinned so he can't bring them up to choke you.
> ...


 
I was thought similar stuff! But the basic one I was thought against a grab from behind was that for example you step to the right with your right leg and drop your weight on the left leg(if you can imagine it) thus creating just enough space to do an elbow from behind to the guys plexus area and then let your forarm flow to the groinstrike/grab/rip. Thats just so you sartle the guy, then from then you can do various things.


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## mook jong man (Jan 27, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1112066 said:
			
		

> Ok, I can understand that. But the ball strike, shin kicks etc., usualy have an effect  I was thought this technique that you and Yoshi mention when I trained TKD. But it just doesn't work for me.. Also people have tryed it on me when I bear huged them but one thing I notice is that instead if you're going to grab the guy at waist level, when he goes down to grab your leg(if you realy hold him) he's gonna lift you and won't be able to reach your legs. At other times(and when I grab lower so I can control more of the arms) they don't lift me but it's relatively easy to get the legs out of the way as it's a pretty big motion. Other times again, some people are just to strong that I could go down like that. Thats my experience, not saying that the technique is bad or anything.
> 
> 
> 
> I was thought similar stuff! But the basic one I was thought against a grab from behind was that for example you step to the right with your right leg and drop your weight on the left leg(if you can imagine it) thus creating just enough space to do an elbow from behind to the guys plexus area and then let your forarm flow to the groinstrike/grab/rip. Thats just so you sartle the guy, then from then you can do various things.


 
In all honesty the Bil Gee technique where you reach down and grab the leg is probably something you would never have to use . 
The main key to defending against grabs is to have the reflex to react straight away before they have time to consolidate their grip . 

I am thinking about the technique you described , wouldn't it be rather hard to step anywhere if he is big and has you in a crushing grip around the upper arms , or is it that you just move your lower body to the side .


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 27, 2009)

No, no.. You don't acctualy step to the side. A bit hard to explain. Yea, it's like just moving your hips to the side. The thing is that you just throw your right leg to the right without putting any weight on it and bending the left leg at the same time. All your weight is on your left leg. Basicly what happens is that your upper body stay at a relatively same place only in the mid area you get an opening just enoug for a chain-elbow/groin strike. I've done this to people much bigger then me, that were holding me very strongly. Try it out.


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## mook jong man (Jan 27, 2009)

Eru Ilúvatar;1112097 said:
			
		

> No, no.. You don't acctualy step to the side. A bit hard to explain. Yea, it's like just moving your hips to the side. The thing is that you just throw your right leg to the right without putting any weight on it and bending the left leg at the same time. All your weight is on your left leg. Basicly what happens is that your upper body stay at a relatively same place only in the mid area you get an opening just enoug for a chain-elbow/groin strike. I've done this to people much bigger then me, that were holding me very strongly. Try it out.


 
Okay , now I see . 
I thought it maybe something like that .


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 27, 2009)

The Two instances I am speaking of come from self meditation I came up with on my own. As for bending down an grabbing the foot. I thought about the form while I perform it an realize this is what this is for an this what that is for. Of course each move has limitless applications. Bending down like is not just grab the foot behind you. But also to grab feet infront of you an pull them up to air. Also it could be used to duck if a dangerous object is flying your way from behind. Along with many other applications I have discovered.



But so cool What versions of Bil Gee discuss grabbing the feet do you have any videos?




Si-Je said:


> I'm not sure about the first one being WC, but it seems it would be a hybrid. The shoot in could be something like chinese wrestling, etc.. and the last part of it is definate WT anti-grappling. Although many WT/WC practitioners don't concider anti-grappling to be "pure" WT.
> 
> The second one: isn't that a move in Bui Gee? Where you bend over and reach between your legs and come back up? I've seen that in a few versions of Bui Gee.
> So, yeah, that would and could be WT/WC.


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## Si-Je (Jan 27, 2009)

Well, Sifu told me they do something similar in Kempo.
You bend over at the waist and grab their legs when their behind you in say a rear bearhug with your arms free.
Not only do you grab the foot and yank it up and through your legs, but you "bootie bump" them as you bend over.  
I.E. hit them with your butt in the waist to unbalance them as you yank their legs up to help you take them off their feet.

I wouldn't bend over in front of someone to grab their legs and do that technqiue.  Might get kicked in the face.  
But, if your already down there... Like you fell, or got thrown down then go for it.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 28, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Well, Sifu told me they do something similar in Kempo.
> You bend over at the waist and grab their legs when their behind you in say a rear bearhug with your arms free.
> Not only do you grab the foot and yank it up and through your legs, but you "bootie bump" them as you bend over.
> I.E. hit them with your butt in the waist to unbalance them as you yank their legs up to help you take them off their feet.
> ...



Sounds like a very a great way to get dumped on your head!  Bend for his foot (if you can because he has to bend too and hopefully his lumbars are weaker than your abs) and he will be in much better position to toss you face first onto the ground....butt bump and all.


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## Si-Je (Jan 28, 2009)

Sigh, if you say so.
Sure, why not?  Anthing can happen, what if?
There's a counter to every counter to every counter. It's just one technique.  Just one idea of applying one technique.  
I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it that way myself, but others might pull it off.  Would a teach a small woman to do that against a big guy? Probably not.
But, I'm harsher on my expectations of any martial art.  If it doesn't work for the smaller defender then it's garbage and useless to me.  But, someone else might want those techniques, it might work for someone else.  So, you teach more of a broader range of techniques for the same attacks.
Dai sau for example (my fav) you can train all the applications of Dai Sau for years and years and years. The same with any technique, coming up with different and new applications all the time.
This position in the form, bending over and raising your arms up?  What is it used for?
Ask your Sifu.
Then ask a different Sifu, if they even have it in their form.
Then ask a student.
On and on.
Then, make up your own mind what you want from the movement.


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## mook jong man (Jan 28, 2009)

I am only going off hear say , about the reaching down and grabbing the leg technique . The guy that told me was an ex kempo guy turned WC instructor, I never heard it from my Sifus mouth , It probably would have been a good idea to ask him while he was still alive but I didn't .

 One thing I do know is that if it is in the Bil Gee it is an emergency technique where all other avenues have failed , and as with all the moves in the forms it will have many , many different applications .

 My thoughts are that for it to be an effective technique the attackers grip would have to be quite low so as to enable you to bend forward and would probably be better done with a distraction technique like a stamp on the foot a split second before diving down to grab the leg .

 As for being dumped on your head that is quite possible , but if you are senior enough to be practicing Bil Gee and have done it for a number of years , then that move should be able to be done in a split second . It might even be possible to brace one hand on the ground and reef their leg out with your other hand , in my experience some of the techniques are not always done verbatim as in the forms , the forms are only a guide line and a lot of the techniques in application are executed slightly differently . 

There are a lot of misconceptions and myths surrounding Bil Gee mainly because of the secrecy surrounding it , the other forms were out there in the open and could be dissected and analysed , have you ever heard the saying " Bil Gee never goes out the door " . Which means it was never shown to outsiders or even junior students of the school .

 I believe that we will never know all the applications of the Bil Gee form because probably some of them especially the last section have been forgotten and left behind in the long dark mists of time .


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 29, 2009)

Yea, The techniques done are not the same way verbatim when doing them fighting...

The Situation would have to present itself. As for bending down. I was simply showing an idea on how to shoot is found with in WC. Of Course when you go down. Your arms should sheild against a kick or block against a kick. Your should move fast. When your feelers make contact with the legs. You should be able to feel movements and shift of weight. By grabbing the back of knees or heels you should lift the feet or legs up towards heaven trying to drop them on back of their head. This move should be done in clinch posistion in my posistion. An I wouldn't do it first. Proabably as a last resort.


But thats my opinion on some of possible application. To me Iron fingers and Iron palm are essential to make many of the techniques in Bli Gee work effeciently. But this is my opinion. Thats why I brought up certain topics on other threads. To me many of the techniques will have to be change from open hand techniques to close fist techniques for an uncondition practioner to use them. This may be also another reason why it was taught last out of the other two forms. Because you had to reach of level of conditioning before this form's primary moves could be useful.
Otherwise I don't see how many of the techniques could be consider dangerous. Because Muay Thai has elbow strikes. But I think Bil Gee is great for the Chi. It has many great moves that is great to spar with too. Along with shifting the body and using the shift to give you more power. But you need to tweak many moves to be useful in actual combat. So take the finger strikes out an replace them with chain punches. Move palm strikes to body to face. Because with out enough power a palm strike to the kidneys is useless.

*Enjoy the videos::barf:*




 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBrIuxxk8ec&feature=related




mook jong man said:


> I am only going off hear say , about the reaching down and grabbing the leg technique . The guy that told me was an ex kempo guy turned WC instructor, I never heard it from my Sifus mouth , It probably would have been a good idea to ask him while he was still alive but I didn't .
> 
> One thing I do know is that if it is in the Bil Gee it is an emergency technique where all other avenues have failed , and as with all the moves in the forms it will have many , many different applications .
> 
> ...


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