# Something struck me last night in class



## Twin Fist (Aug 26, 2008)

Last night, while I was teaching, I was talking to my students about the history of the Kenpo arts.

Something struck me as i was talking about the different lines and lineages.

William Chow.

From this ONE man came at least FOUR system founders.

SGM Ed Parker
Sijo Adriano Eperaldo
GGM Ralph Castro
GM Sam Kuoha

in fact, there are prob MORE system founders that can be traced directly to Chow.

Think about that. From one man. four systems that are practiced world wide.

wow


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 26, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Last night, while I was teaching, I was talking to my students about the history of the Kenpo arts.
> 
> Something struck me as i was talking about the different lines and lineages.
> 
> ...


 
Then think about how many systems spawned from those fella's! 

It's like the old Selson Blue commercial....and they tell two friends.... and then they tell two friends...and so on....and so on... LOL


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## arnisador (Aug 26, 2008)

That's good, but I bet there are many that spawned more--surely Gich Funakoshi did, for example?


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## Danjo (Aug 26, 2008)

arnisador said:


> That's good, but I bet there are many that spawned more--surely Gich Funakoshi did, for example?


 
Yeah, but this is the Kenpo/Kempo section.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 26, 2008)

That is so, *Danjo* but the point is valid nontheless.  

The web of artists that branch out from a given source is directly proprtional to the length of time involved.  Indeed, in the koryu arts, it is most desirable for that 'chain' to be as short as possible.

For example, my iai sensei's 'line' in karate is very short indeed.  I'm embarassed that I can't recall the intermediary but it goes Funikoshi-{my memory is bad}-my sensei.  In Iai it is something like O-Sensei-Iwata Sensei-my sensei.

The fragmenting of an art along any lines is, in my opinion, a very bad thing.  Obviously everyone brings something new to an art but allow it to wander off-beam enough and it becomes something else.  

My sensei calls it 'Drift', wherein a technique is okay within certain parameters but the boundaries of those parameters waver over the 'compass' as time goes by unless a governing body keeps an eye on what is being taught.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 26, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> .... unless a governing body keeps an eye on what is being taught.


Well, my good friend, with the greatest respect to you, I have to say this last bit scares me. Because, who decides who will be the governing body? That is, who governs the governors? And how do we know whether the decisions of this body are making the art better or worse? 

To quote Doc from a long-ago post on SGM EP: *...Who said a black can't promote another to black? Who made that rule, and who said Parker would have followed anyone's rules but his own like he did most of his life.* No governing body there, and all of us associated with anything Ed Parker touched even indirectly are probably better off for it.

Or am I completely missing your point?


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## The Kai (Aug 26, 2008)

Forgot 
GM Bill Chun
GM Nick Cerio


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## Danjo (Aug 27, 2008)

The Kai said:


> Forgot
> GM Bill Chun
> GM Nick Cerio


 
Cerio trained with Chow for about two weeks. he also trained with Parker and Chun, but his main teacher was George Pesare.


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## LawDog (Aug 27, 2008)

Nick Cerio's original teacher was Pesare. After B.B. Cerio's main teacher, like many Kenpoists, was himself. He was influenced by other instructors but he did follow his own path.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 27, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Well, my good friend, with the greatest respect to you, I have to say this last bit scares me. Because, who decides who will be the governing body? That is, who governs the governors? And how do we know whether the decisions of this body are making the art better or worse?
> 
> {snip}
> 
> Or am I completely missing your point?


 
I think I didn't choose my words carefully enough nor couch them in a clear enough context .  

I was speaking from the vantage point of someone in a koryu art, wherein the 'governing body' is very easy to define and pretty incontestable i.e. the head of the ryu and/or the holders of menkyo kaiden. In essense those who are entrusted with making sure that the art doesn't get corrupted over time by the 'drift' I referred to.

In a more 'open' style, pretty much everything that isn't koryu, then the reservations voiced about a governing body are perfectly legitimate.  It's one reason why the whole 'scene' is littered with schisms and break-away groups.  

There's nothing wrong with that at all for a great many people. It does open the door to the art getting so mangled with the myriad re-interpretations that it can become unrecognisable as what it started out as.  But is that necessarily a bad thing as long as it still 'works'?  

I gave my opinion earlier that is a 'bad thing' but just because I think so doesn't make it true :lol:.  It is one of the reasons why I love koryu arts, however; that sense that they are substantially the same as when created.


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## kidswarrior (Aug 27, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> There's nothing wrong with that at all for a great many people. It does open the door to the art getting so mangled with the myriad re-interpretations that it can become unrecognisable as what it started out as.  But is that necessarily a bad thing as long as it still 'works'?


Judging by what Pesare and Cerio did after they went on their own, I believe you're right, divergence is not necessarily bad at all. As you say (imply?), *Skn*, innovation may be the way to go for some. *Law Dog* makes the point also.



> I gave my opinion earlier that is a 'bad thing' but just because I think so doesn't make it true :lol:.  It is one of the reasons why I love koryu arts, however; that sense that they are substantially the same as when created.


I can see how this could be desirable, but for some of us, it just wasn't in the cards.  Thanks for clarifying the point.


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## Danjo (Aug 27, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> innovation may be the way to go for some. *Law Dog* makes the point also.


 
A lot of folks start their own thing and nothing ever comes of it. If it has merit, then time will bear it out.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 27, 2008)

You chaps are making some good points on this - I think I may well be in the process of revising my stance (yeah, MA based pun attack !) a little.

As *Danjo* precised so well above, "If it has merit, then time will bear it out".

Hard to disagree with that.


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## The Kai (Aug 27, 2008)

Actually I guess my though is that GM Chow was more of a force than most tend to give him credit


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## The Kai (Aug 27, 2008)

i was thinking more of the influence that Chow had


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## Josh Oakley (Aug 29, 2008)

Usually the thing that strikes me in class is club or a human appendage.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 29, 2008)

I am the instructor, so i tend to do the hitting...............


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## ackks10 (Sep 8, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> Then think about how many systems spawned from those fella's!
> 
> It's like the old Selson Blue commercial....and they tell two friends.... and then they tell two friends...and so on....and so on... LOL



Hey you STILL use that?? oh wait a sec,my bad


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## celtic_crippler (Sep 8, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> Hey you STILL use that?? oh wait a sec,my bad


 
My goatee gets grimy so I gotta use something....LOL


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## ackks10 (Sep 8, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> my goatee gets grimy so i gotta use something....lol





lol


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## dianhsuhe (Sep 12, 2008)

It is amazing just how much of our art(s) go back to Professor Chow.  He never received enough credit while he was alive either...


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