# Ninja history??



## heretic888 (Jun 10, 2003)

I felt like starting a thread discussing the history of the ninja and Ninpo. What are your thoughts on the subject??


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## tonbo (Jun 13, 2003)

Boy, felt like opening up the industrial-size can o'worms, huh?   

This is going to depend on who you talk to and what sources they have, or claim to have.  You will find everything from claims that ninjas were superhuman and trained by "demons" to claims that ninjas never really existed.

I think this is one reality you may have to define for yourself...

Ninjas *do* have pretty cool clothes and gear, tho...... 

Peace--


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## Jill666 (Jun 13, 2003)

Well, my current handle on Ninja history comes straight from Stephen K Hayes' writings, so I would refer you to his books. 

I imagine that info is reasonably accurate, given (as Von Clauswicz said) that "the map is not the terrain".  

I do think people tend to mystify or demonize anything they don't understand.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 13, 2003)

> Well, my current handle on Ninja history comes straight from Stephen K Hayes' writings, so I would refer you to his books.



I wouldn't put much weight at all in anything written by Stephen Hayes.  There is a ton of misinformation in his books written years ago.  As a side..."History and Traditions" was also written by Mr. Hayes...though it claims Hatsumi sensei on the cover.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 13, 2003)

"There are many theories as to the beginnings of what we know as the art of ninjutsu today. Each Japanese historian has his or her own set of facts and beliefs, and it is difficult pinpointing a specific place, person, time, or set of circumstances that would be acceptable to all as the birth of the art. In all truthfulness, ninjutsu did not come into being as a specific well-defined art in the first place, and many centuries passed before ninjutsu was established as an independent system of knowledge in its own right. The people who were later referred to as ninja did not originally use that label for themselves. They considered themselves to be merely practitioners of political, religious, and military strategies that were cultural opposites of the conventional outlooks of the times. Ninjutsu developed as a highly illegal counter culture to the ruling samurai elite, and for this reason alone, the origins of the art were shrouded by centuries of mystery, concealment, and deliberate confusion of history."

You can read the whole thing here...

http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html

Not that it really tells you a lot of solid fact, but then again...


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## heretic888 (Jun 16, 2003)

> wouldn't put much weight at all in anything written by Stephen Hayes. There is a ton of misinformation in his books written years ago.



Such as?? 

You've mad this claim more than once, Jay, but have yet to give the particulars.



> As a side..."History and Traditions" was also written by Mr. Hayes...though it claims Hatsumi sensei on the cover.



"As for the ninja have being depicted as mere mercenaries, this is an unfortunate magnification of isolated cases. Certainly there were "rogue" ninja, as there were rogue samurai or sailors or anyone who went awry of the code of justice they had sworn to. But these were minor compared to the whole. Those of you who have read my book, Ninjutsu: History and Tradition, will probably recall that portion dealing with this aspect. Rather than seeing themselves as mercenaries or thugs, the ninja 'considered themselves to be merely practitioners of political, religious and military strategies that were cultural opposites of the conventional outlooks of the times. Ninjutsu developed as a highly illegal counter culture to the ruling samurai elite, and for this reason alone, the origins of the art were shrouded by centuries of mystery, concealment and deliberate confusion of history.' " 

--Masaaki Hatsumi, in an issue of NINJA magazine

I guess Soke was confused that day, huh??


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## Jill666 (Jun 16, 2003)

I have a copy of Ninjutsu- History and Tradition, by Dr Masaaki Hatsumi. Where do you come by the info that Hayes actually wrote it?

I haven't read much of it yet- still in Hayes' writing along with my Bujikan training manual. 

As a Kenpo practitoner, I find the transition to Taijutsu um, interesting. I think I've learned more Japanese in the past six months than the past six years!

As for particulars, I would ask for that also. Also for your school and how it differs from the Bujinkan I am studying. That might be helpful (for me).

Thank you 
:asian:


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## Bujingodai (Jun 16, 2003)

Jill I don't know where it is stated but it is well known that SKH wrote or had much to do with it.

I like his writings, but I think there is merit to everything to a degree.


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## heretic888 (Jun 16, 2003)

> Jill I don't know where it is stated but it is well known that SKH wrote or had much to do with it.



As I understand it, Hayes (along with his wife) edited the book and the book is really just a collection of essays by Hatsumi-soke that Hayes 'added to' here and there. He did not simply 'write it' by any means.... especially when you consider that NINJA magazine article when Hatsumi directly references it as "my book".


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## Cryozombie (Jun 16, 2003)

heretic888,

I'm going to side with Jay on his comment about questioning what Shidoshi Hayes writes... 

I admit to having a pretty negative view of Stephan K Hayes and the Quest centers in general, so of course I would tend to question the legitimacy of a lot of Shidoshi Hayes material...  I have read occasionaly (and heard from other Bujinkan instructors) that many of the things Shidoshi Hayes wrote were embellished and/or made up, such as the "golf course" incident in His book "Ninja and their Secret Fighting Art" 

I personally Began my "Bujinkan" Training at a school run by Shidoshi Hayes organization "Shadows of Iga".  It was VERY expensive and they required a year contract AND you had to purchase his Books in order to pass rank tests.  The Head instructor there also told me that Shidoshi Hayes was still the only american Ninja Instructor.  When I met the Shidoshi Sterling, who later became my instructor and he told me what he taught, but that he was not part of Shidoshi Hayes organization, I basicaly called him a fraud because I was mislead by the Shadows of Iga to make a buck off me.   I got lucky and instead of "blowing me off" Shidoshi Sterling came back and showed me credentials from Sensei Hatsumi and let me come train with him.   

All in all, my personal experience leads me to doubt much of what Shidoshi Hayes claims...  But again, I may just be cynical due to past experiance.


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## Jill666 (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> * I personally Began my "Bujinkan" Training at a school run by Shidoshi Hayes organization "Shadows of Iga".  It was VERY expensive and they required a year contract AND you had to purchase his Books in order to pass rank tests.  The Head instructor there also told me that Shidoshi Hayes was still the only american Ninja Instructor.  When I met the Shidoshi Sterling, who later became my instructor and he told me what he taught, but that he was not part of Shidoshi Hayes organization, I basicaly called him a fraud because I was mislead by the Shadows of Iga to make a buck off me.   I got lucky and instead of "blowing me off" Shidoshi Sterling came back and showed me credentials from Sensei Hatsumi and let me come train with him.
> 
> All in all, my personal experience leads me to doubt much of what Shidoshi Hayes claims...  But again, I may just be cynical due to past experiance. *



Ok, that's understandable- I'd also be very skeptical. All I can say is I study Kasumi-An Bujinkan. I have signed nothing, purchased nothing, and my instructor charges fifteen bux for two hours if you show up (routinely he runs over to about three hours). His instructor is Mark Davis in Boston, and they go to Hatsumi-sensei for seminars and testing. 

I'm glad you found a good instructor who you can learn from. Thanks for sharing your experience. 

:asian:


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## Bujingodai (Jun 16, 2003)

I have never had anything to do with Hayes, bought books and vids from quest.
I did have a chum I talked to online who was a student of his Dayton school. 4 yrs and he was basically an orange belt. 100+ a month as well. That all seemed too much to me.
My old Shidoshi wasn't a fan either, said SKH was a good businessman. He definatly knows how to network. But for his teachings I can't say.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 16, 2003)

*sigh*



> You've mad this claim more than once, Jay, but have yet to give the particulars.



When have you asked?  



> I guess Soke was confused that day, huh??



Yep...and wasn't the first time either.  This happens quite often.  You'd be better off getting used to it.

Ninjutsu: History and Traditions was written by Stephen Hayes.   Hatsumi sensei is very open about this.  

If you're looking for historical texts on Ninpo, then purchase Hatsumi sensei's books or do the research yourself.



> He did not simply 'write it' by any means.... especially when you consider that NINJA magazine article when Hatsumi directly references it as "my book".



That would be an incorrect assumption.  Hatsumi sensei's name was put on the book to draw a crowd...which it did quite well.  It served its purpose.  Unfortunately, people continue to use the book today as gospel...due to not being around when it all came out that it wasn't "his book".

Hatsumi sensei is the first (source: his books) to stand up and explain that Ninjutsu and the history there-of is clouded in confusion, gaps and mystery.  However...he has been passed much information regarding the ryuha that he heads.


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## gozanryu (Jun 17, 2003)

Hmmm, the Terrain is not the Territory...


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## heretic888 (Jun 17, 2003)

Most intriguing....



> When have you asked?



Well, I'm asking now then. I would sincerely like to know as I own many of Hayes' publications and am interested in knowing which parts are and are not the reputed embellishments.

Now, please don't perceive any of this to be accusatory because it's not. I'm just trying to piece things together here. Thanks.



> If you're looking for historical texts on Ninpo, then purchase Hatsumi sensei's books or do the research yourself.



What particular sources/publications would you recommend??


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## Bujingodai (Jun 17, 2003)

The last publication Understand Good Play, now that the ridiculous $70 CDN price tag is gone is a pretty good collection of statements. There are alot there in that book that both turn me towards and away from Hatsumi Sensei. Regardless a good read. I enjoy the Grandmasters book of Ninja Training, it is a loose read but again good. The Esscence of Ninjutsu is a good thick read but it bored me. LOL I like pictures


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## Jay Bell (Jun 17, 2003)

> Well, I'm asking now then. I would sincerely like to know as I own many of Hayes' publications and am interested in knowing which parts are and are not the reputed embellishments.



This is honestly pretty tough...and would be a book in itself.  Hayes' interpretation of Ninpo was extremely limited during his writing of his books.  I believe he was merely a Shodan when those books were written...and that he had only spent a bit over a year (maybe 2?) in Japan training.

Much of the spiritual aspects that he wrote about being Ninja-based were actually "fill-in-the-blanks" using Tendai Buddhism.



> Now, please don't perceive any of this to be accusatory because it's not. I'm just trying to piece things together here. Thanks.



No worries at all.


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## heretic888 (Jun 17, 2003)

> The last publication Understand Good Play, now that the ridiculous $70 CDN price tag is gone is a pretty good collection of statements. There are alot there in that book that both turn me towards and away from Hatsumi Sensei. Regardless a good read.



That publication is basically a collection of the "Quotations from Soke" at the now-defunct Ura & Omote newsletter, is it not??



> I enjoy the Grandmasters book of Ninja Training, it is a loose read but again good.



I've read that one. A bit hard to follow at times. Soke's comments on the kuji was interesting, though...



> The Esscence of Ninjutsu is a good thick read but it bored me. LOL I like pictures



I loved that book! It had so much depth and meaning in it. The historical commentary at the end is interesting, as well (it denotes how closely tied some of the ryuha are historically).



> This is honestly pretty tough...and would be a book in itself.



Yipe.



> Hayes' interpretation of Ninpo was extremely limited during his writing of his books. I believe he was merely a Shodan when those books were written...and that he had only spent a bit over a year (maybe 2?) in Japan training.



Hmmm... I believe he stated in one of his books that he began training around '75. His first book wasn't published until '80 (although he was a shodan at the time). Of course, he may have written the core material for most of his books long before then (it's interesting to note that Hayes reverses some of his positions in one of his later books).



> Much of the spiritual aspects that he wrote about being Ninja-based were actually "fill-in-the-blanks" using Tendai Buddhism.



I see.

But Ninpo was heavily influenced by Mikkyo, though, was it not?? Also, as a personal question, what would you describe as the 'spiritual aspects' of Ninpo in a more accurate light???



> No worries at all.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 17, 2003)

> That publication is basically a collection of the "Quotations from Soke" at the now-defunct Ura & Omote newsletter, is it not??



Yeah, it sure is.  Ben Cole did the "Quotes from Soke" and then eventually it became the book.  I highly recommend it...it's great stuff.



> But Ninpo was heavily influenced by Mikkyo, though, was it not?? Also, as a personal question, what would you describe as the 'spiritual aspects' of Ninpo in a more accurate light???



Well...yes and no honestly.  Remember...Mikkyo is a *practice* of buddhism, not it's own entity.  

If you take a look at the Gyokko ryu, you can explain it as the physical embodiment of Tantric Buddhism.  Everything that is Gyokko ryu comes from this methodology.  I've read about Shugendo having hard ties to Togakure ryu...but stemming from Buddhism (ala Gyokko), I can't really say.

Another change in the Mikkyo vs. Ninpo idea.  Ninpo gassho work is not relgious based per se.  Take the Ten Ryaku Uchu Gassho...in Buddhism, this hand formation is speaking to the heavens.  It is promising the heavens that you will continue to polish your heart and live by the "right".

In Gyokko ryu, it is about becoming "zero"...and connecting in with nature and everything around you -- opponent included.


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## heretic888 (Jun 17, 2003)

> Yeah, it sure is. Ben Cole did the "Quotes from Soke" and then eventually it became the book. I highly recommend it...it's great stuff.



Thanks. I'll try and pick that one, as well as "Ninpo: Wisdom for Life", up later on this month.



> Well...yes and no honestly. Remember...Mikkyo is a *practice* of buddhism, not it's own entity.



Yes, I'm aware of that. Mikkyo is basically the Japanese version of Tantric Buddhism, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong).



> If you take a look at the Gyokko ryu, you can explain it as the physical embodiment of Tantric Buddhism. Everything that is Gyokko ryu comes from this methodology.



Intriguing. This commentary also holds true for Koto ryu, I assume, as the two schools are so closely intertwined.



> I've read about Shugendo having hard ties to Togakure ryu...but stemming from Buddhism (ala Gyokko), I can't really say.



I believe the basic idea is that the first 'official soke' of the ryu, Daisuke (Nishina) Togakure, was supposedly a student of the Togakushi yamabushi before he went to Iga and learned Hakuun-ryu/Gyokko-ryu. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, what of Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu?? Was it too incluenced by these 'religious' currents?? I have heard both Hakuun-ryu and Gyokko-ryu alternately claimed as the 'source' of many of the ryuha in the Bujinkan (namely: Togakure-ryu, Koto-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu, Gikan-ryu, Kukishinden-ryu, and Shinden Fudo-ryu). Of course, according to the lineages, Gyokko-ryu Shitojutsu actually comes from Hakuun-ryu I believe...



> Another change in the Mikkyo vs. Ninpo idea. Ninpo gassho work is not relgious based per se. Take the Ten Ryaku Uchu Gassho...in Buddhism, this hand formation is speaking to the heavens. It is promising the heavens that you will continue to polish your heart and live by the "right".
> 
> In Gyokko ryu, it is about becoming "zero"...and connecting in with nature and everything around you -- opponent included.



Hmmm.... most intriguing. Of course, one could say that from a certain perspective these two interpretations are really the same (maybe perhaps different 'levels' of intepretation?).

In any event, thanks for the information.

Laterz.


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## Bujingodai (Jun 17, 2003)

Where can I obtain a copy of that Ninpo:wisdom for life. book? That won't cost an arm and a leg. I won't buy of of RVD site for that reason. Any sites in Canada?

Jay, I really learn from what you have to post man. Keep it up. I wish I had you on my board.


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## heretic888 (Jun 17, 2003)

> Where can I obtain a copy of that Ninpo:wisdom for life. book? That won't cost an arm and a leg. I won't buy of of RVD site for that reason. Any sites in Canada?



Hmmm..... I believe Borders has the book available for a very reasonable price. That's where I plan on getting it. Just gotta wait the two months it will take to get to the local store.



> Jay, I really learn from what you have to post man. Keep it up. I wish I had you on my board.



Ditto.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 17, 2003)

> Also, what of Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu??



I don't have a clue 


Here's the link to order it straight from Joe:

Ninpo: Wisdom for Life 

I appreciate the kind words, guys.  Means a lot


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## heretic888 (Jun 18, 2003)

> I don't have a clue



Ok. No problem.  



> I appreciate the kind words, guys. Means a lot



No problem, Jay.  

By the way, you never answered my question before (at least, I don't think you did): how would you on a personal level describe the so-called 'spiritual' or 'esoteric' side(s) of Ninpo??

Thanks. Laterz.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 18, 2003)

> By the way, you never answered my question before (at least, I don't think you did): how would you on a personal level describe the so-called 'spiritual' or 'esoteric' side(s) of Ninpo??



Hrm...this is just my take on things...so please don't take it for more then that..

But from my experiances, the ties to Nature and the heavens seem to be foremost.  Interweaving yourself into nature and all things in it...things of that nature.  Becoming "zero"....in line with all things in nature so there is no seperation.

As far as labeling things...beyond pointing the finger to Buddhism, I'm not sure if that answers your question or not?


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## heretic888 (Jun 18, 2003)

My, this discussion is so much more fulfilling than the ninjer bashing that usually goes on around here (as amusing as that is).  



> Hrm...this is just my take on things...so please don't take it for more then that..



Understood.  



> But from my experiances, the ties to Nature and the heavens seem to be foremost. Interweaving yourself into nature and all things in it...things of that nature. Becoming "zero"....in line with all things in nature so there is no seperation.



I see. Very interesting indeed. It is also intriguing to note that you capitalized 'Nature' there.  

Tell me, do you believe this state of 'zero' is simply a result of proper Taijutsu?? Or, are there specific meditations or practices for attaining this state??



> As far as labeling things...beyond pointing the finger to Buddhism, I'm not sure if that answers your question or not?



Yes, it does. More or less. I wasn't really interested in labelling the 'spirituality' or 'esotericism' of Ninpo, but based on your description the ties to Buddhism are rather obvious. Then again, as an enthusiast of Ken Wilber's writings, I am of the opinion that all great 'spiritual' traditions share a core of truth.

Well, thanks for the information. Laterz.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 18, 2003)

> Tell me, do you believe this state of 'zero' is simply a result of proper Taijutsu?? Or, are there specific meditations or practices for attaining this state??



Yes...and yes  

During the Gassho of Gyokko ryu, there are things mentally that one works on with blending with nature and things that are happening.  It begins as a very "implanted" mental idea and feeling...much like most meditative ideas.  Eventually...the feeling comes through and there you are.

Each of the Gassho has a specific purpose and outcome.


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## heretic888 (Jun 18, 2003)

> Yes...and yes



Oh?? And these meditations are different from the kuji goshin ho that Hayes showed in his publications?? If so, what are they?? Sitting, Zen-style exercises?? Moving, Tai Chi-type exercises?? Chi kung-type exercises focusing on the breath?? Mikkyo-style mudra/mantra??

I don't mean to barrage you with questions there, Jay...  



> During the Gassho of Gyokko ryu, there are things mentally that one works on with blending with nature and things that are happening. It begins as a very "implanted" mental idea and feeling...much like most meditative ideas. Eventually...the feeling comes through and there you are.



Hmmm.... so, basically, what you're saying is that each of the Gassho of the Gyokko/Koto schools there is both a short term effect and a gradually developing long term effect??

Laterz.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 19, 2003)

> Oh?? And these meditations are different from the kuji goshin ho that Hayes showed in his publications?? If so, what are they?? Sitting, Zen-style exercises?? Moving, Tai Chi-type exercises?? Chi kung-type exercises focusing on the breath?? Mikkyo-style mudra/mantra??



WHOA haha...

Yes...different of the Kuji Goshin Ho that Mr. Hayes showed in his books.  In fact, he's stated that he altered the kuji in the book from how they are realistically done so that people wouldn't play with what they didn't understand.

Zen-style?  Shinden Fudo ryu has something like this.  Moving Tai Chi exercises...That would be similar to Sanshin no Kata.



> Hmmm.... so, basically, what you're saying is that each of the Gassho of the Gyokko/Koto schools there is both a short term effect and a gradually developing long term effect??



Exactly


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## heretic888 (Jun 19, 2003)

> WHOA haha...



 



> Yes...different of the Kuji Goshin Ho that Mr. Hayes showed in his books. In fact, he's stated that he altered the kuji in the book from how they are realistically done so that people wouldn't play with what they didn't understand.



Hmmm.... that is very intriguing. Makes one wonder how much else has been 'altered', neh?

Well, if Hayes' presentation of the kuji and juji in his publications is inaccurate, would you be willing to elaborate upon what they are really like (without betraying any mysterious 'ninja secrets', of course  )??? I'm not asking for a step-by-step how-to here, just a generic outline and basic description of how these things are done in Ninpo in your personal experience. 



> Zen-style? Shinden Fudo ryu has something like this. Moving Tai Chi exercises...That would be similar to Sanshin no Kata.



Hmmph. Sounds like Ninpo's got a bit of everything, neh?  



> Exactly



Ok, thanks.  

Talk to yah laterz.


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## heretic888 (Jun 23, 2003)

Heh, looks like all my questions scared Jay off.  

Laterz, guys.


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## Deaf (Jun 23, 2003)

I don't think you scared him off.  Jay is probably busy with life.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 23, 2003)

*chuckle*  I've actually been trying to dig up the pics of the Gyokko ryu gassho...but can't seem to locate them anywhere.  Give me some more time and I'll see what I can come up with for you.


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## heretic888 (Jun 23, 2003)

> I don't think you scared him off. Jay is probably busy with life.



Well, at least that makes one of us.  



> *chuckle* I've actually been trying to dig up the pics of the Gyokko ryu gassho...but can't seem to locate them anywhere. Give me some more time and I'll see what I can come up with for you.



Heh. Ok, thanks. :asian: 

Happy huntin', y'all.


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## heretic888 (Jul 9, 2003)

This thread is just too damn interesting to just let it die out....


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## heretic888 (Jul 15, 2003)

Ahem, well, anyways....

Jay, you mentioned Gyokko-ryu a lot in this discussion. Does most of the philosophy and approach to "spirituality" in Bujinkan Ninpo come from that particular school, in your opinion??


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## Jay Bell (Jul 15, 2003)

Hrm...I would say in my experiances and training, most of the spirituality stems from Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu


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## heretic888 (Jul 17, 2003)

Speaking of Gyokko ryu, what is your take on the Sanshin no Kata (or Ki no Kata as it is sometimes called) in relation to Hayes' system of the Godai?? Do you think Hayes was just way off in this matter?? Or do you think there is some kind of relationship??

Laterz.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 18, 2003)

> Speaking of Gyokko ryu, what is your take on the Sanshin no Kata (or Ki no Kata as it is sometimes called) in relation to Hayes' system of the Godai?? Do you think Hayes was just way off in this matter?? Or do you think there is some kind of relationship??



Yes


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## r erman (Jul 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *
> 
> I have read occasionaly (and heard from other Bujinkan instructors) that many of the things Shidoshi Hayes wrote were embellished and/or made up, such as the "golf course" incident in His book "Ninja and their Secret Fighting Art"
> ...



I know this is so two pages ago, but I thought I'd say that a very high-ranking american Genbukan Instructor told me that Tanemura had actually validated this story(golf course training) when I mentioned to him a quote from a japanese shihan saying he must have missed training that day.  He also mentioned that Tanemura often taught inton and more of the 'sneaky' stuff to his students when he was still in the booj.

Also, I think Jay is right in that Hayes pieced some of his earlier info together from different sources, some of his earlier suppositions are not borne out by research, but then some are(i.e. the strong link between ninja, shugendo, and yamabushi).  I think the largest piece of misinfo may have been the strong demarcation between the ninja and the samurai, as separate classes...

All in all, I can agree that there is a strong commercial slant to what SKH now does that doesn't sit well with me, but his teaching method and movement is still well above par compared to what other american 'shihan' are doing.


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## r erman (Jul 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *Speaking of Gyokko ryu, what is your take on the Sanshin no Kata (or Ki no Kata as it is sometimes called) in relation to Hayes' system of the Godai?? Do you think Hayes was just way off in this matter?? Or do you think there is some kind of relationship??
> *



I know this was meant for Jay but here is an answer in Mr Hayes' own words:

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/godai.htm


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## Jay Bell (Jul 20, 2003)

> Stephen K. Hayes is a pioneer in this martial training. The first American to travel to Japan to study the art of ninjutsu, he is a Shihan Shidoshi, under the tutelage of Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi.



No he wasn't.  Terry Dobson was.  Would this be an example of things that don't sit well?    Sure does me..


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## r erman (Jul 20, 2003)

C'mon Jay, now you are splitting hairs  Terry Dobson was in Japan because of Aikido, not Ninjutsu.  He may have trained with and been friends with Hatsumi soke, but he wasn't a student in the sense that Navon, Hayes, Munthe, or the japanese were.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 21, 2003)

*chuckle*  Yeahyeah  

Notice how rare it is that no one mentions Danny Waxman?


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## heretic888 (Jul 21, 2003)

> Yes



Cryptic as always, neh Jay??  

((Or maybe I'm just blabbin' too much??))



> I know this is so two pages ago, but I thought I'd say that a very high-ranking american Genbukan Instructor told me that Tanemura had actually validated this story(golf course training) when I mentioned to him a quote from a japanese shihan saying he must have missed training that day. He also mentioned that Tanemura often taught inton and more of the 'sneaky' stuff to his students when he was still in the booj.



Hmmm.... interesting. I also seem to recall a post on E-budo in which it was alluded that Tanemura may have also taught Hayes the Godai ideas. Apparently, Tanemura made reference to using "water" to counter an enemy's "fire" in a technique, but I'd have to go check the thread to make sure.



> Also, I think Jay is right in that Hayes pieced some of his earlier info together from different sources, some of his earlier suppositions are not borne out by research, but then some are(i.e. the strong link between ninja, shugendo, and yamabushi).



I didn't think there was that strong of a connection between the Ninja/Ninpo and the Yamabushi/Shugendo outside of the Togakure-ryu...... Mikkyo is another story, however.



> I think the largest piece of misinfo may have been the strong demarcation between the ninja and the samurai, as separate classes...



I would definitely agree with that. Even the stereotypical "Bujinkan is 3 ninja and 6 samurai schools" line often found on the internet is evident of the rather rigid dichotomy many people have between the two. Still, I think Hayes' writings were focusing more on the differences between Ninpo (as he saw it) and Bushido, rather than the Ninja and Samurai themselves.



> I know this was meant for Jay



Actually, it was meant for anyone with an answer.  

Laterz.


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