# How do you make a fist?



## Elfan (Dec 15, 2002)

Well how do you?

I curl my fingers staring with my index and going down the row to my pinky.  When thats done I place my thumb across my index/middle finger.


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## Kirk (Dec 15, 2002)

That's how I used to do it, until I saw a video with Chuck Sullivan
saying to put the thumb at the side, touching your pointer finger.


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## TkdWarrior (Dec 15, 2002)

i do both ways but when it comes to instinctive reaction i ended up diong kirk's way 
-TkdWarrior-


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## Elfan (Dec 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *That's how I used to do it, until I saw a video with Chuck Sullivan
> saying to put the thumb at the side, touching your pointer finger. *



Why does he position the thumb like that?


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## Kirk (Dec 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *Why does he position the thumb like that? *



The reason I started doing it that way was because his 
explaination made so much sense.  But damned if I can remember
it now!  ... I'll watch it again soon, and post after I see it.


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## ikenpo (Dec 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *The reason I started doing it that way was because his
> explaination made so much sense.  But damned if I can remember
> it now!  ... I'll watch it again soon, and post after I see it. *



I'm going to use the A word which may get Doc in on this discussion , but I think it is anatomically stronger to put your thumb the way Kirk mentioned. If you notice or have ever put a pair of boxing gloves on that's the way they are designed with the thumb pressed against the side of the index finger and not across the bottom of the index and middle finger. 


jb :asian:


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## JD_Nelson (Dec 16, 2002)

I make the fist by curling the pinky, ring, middle and then the index finger followed by the thumb wrapping around the index and middle finger.  

This seems to give the fist more a more compact feel to me.  I also think that if a hammerfist is executed, that the fist is much tighter and inflicts more injury to the attacker when executed.  

Sincerly,

JD


:asian: :asian:


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## ikenpo (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JD_Nelson _
> *I make the fist by curling the pinky, ring, middle and then the index finger followed by the thumb wrapping around the index and middle finger.
> 
> This seems to give the fist more a more compact feel to me.  I also think that if a hammerfist is executed, that the fist is much tighter and inflicts more injury to the attacker when executed.
> ...



That's one way to look at it... 

I think the "tightness" of the fist could slow down the delivery. I also think you'll find most of the "masters" creating that hammer at the last second before contact for maximum speed of execution (but I could be wrong). 

In addition you might find that with a looser hammer there is a funnel created inside of your hand with the thumb on the top of it when it is placed next to the index finger. Some people believe this creates a percusive strike and can create even more damage..I don't know that this is a particularly Kenpo way of thinking, but we are here to share understandings and what we've been exposed to, and it's always good to speak with a fellow Kansan.

Regards, jb:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Dec 18, 2002)

I, like JB, curl from the little finger to the index, gripping the roll of skin directly below the knuckles (where metacarpals join phalanges.)  I tell students it is like grabbing a roll of pennies or quarters like a good street fighter, when are getting ready to punch someone.  

The rolling from little finger to index comes from the mechanics of the grip.  The little and ring fingers are much stronger than the index in gripping.  This is due to the musculature in the forearm involved in gripping.  Squeeze the index finger into a curl by itself and you will feel the muscles along the radial side of the arm tighten, then tighten the little, ring and middle fingers and you find the muscles on the ulnar side of the arm contracting, and they are much stronger.  I learned this in Iado and Iajitsu, gripping firmly with the lesser fingers and guiding with the index.  

Your fist does not stay "clenched", which is difficult for most beginners.  You can form the proper fist position, holding the roll of skin, while remaining relaxed.  Then tense instantly as you make contact with the target.  

I have a Traco student switching over to EPAC, and he makes his fist with the thumb beside the index finger, rather than curled under.  The only time I tried it, in the early 80's, I distinctly remember jamming my thumb.  Obviously I was not doing it correctly.  I know how SGM Parker did it, and would like to hear the rational for doing it another way.

Oss,
-Michael


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## JD_Nelson (Dec 19, 2002)

Since I began my kenpo journey about 1 year ago, I have learned a bundh of information about striking.  

I can now hit a heavy bag with great power and not hurt my hand or wrist now.  I give my kenpo instructor credit for me being able to make a proper fist and strike properly.

I am somewhat discouraged by the lack of input here.  This is a basic aspect of our art and it seems to be overlooked.  Thanks to Kirk, JB, Michael, Elfan and the rest.  I just think that this is a primary way of helping to prevent injury inflicted to one's self.


Guess this is just no flashy enough to be a hot topic.


I will eat come cheese now when I reread this post as well.

:shrug: :shrug: 


Kind Regards,

JD


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## Elfan (Dec 19, 2002)

Michael Billings, so you are saying that you go from pinky-index because that creates a tighter unit for striking?  Or am I misreading what you wrote?


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## ikenpo (Dec 19, 2002)

Mr. Billings,

What are your thoughts on using a "dragon's head" strike in a linear punching or striking manner (as opposed to a circular raking fashion)? I've also seen people who use a "phoenix eye" fist to strike. Both are very painful when on the receiving end based on my experience and I've been stopped dead in my tracks with a dragon's head to the ribs several times over the years. For those who don't know....the dragon's head strike is the middle knuckle protruding out and and supported by the index and ring finger and covered by the thumb. The phoenix eye is the index knuckle protruding out and supported by the thumb. 


jb:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Dec 20, 2002)

Nope, you did not misunderstand, I just did not complete the thought.  The curling is just so you feel where the strength in the grip is.  It IS how you grip the katana.  I close my fist the way anyone does, but was being specific regarding:

1) Finding that roll of skin that helps "compact" the weapon and fuses the fist into a single unit.  Less likely to sustain injury to us.

2) I was focusing and asking about the thumb placement.  The thumb locking over the index finger makes sense to me for more than one reason.  Other than my jamming it, if the index finger is the weakest part of the fist "unit", then can't we assist the strength of the grip, or compactness of the unit, by locking the thumb down, across the index finger?

Just a thought, not gospel or a given.

-Michael


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## Michael Billings (Dec 20, 2002)

... yes, I originally learned it as a Pheonix Eys fist, but until Mr. Parker or Mr. Conatser showed me (I cannot remember which one), I did not nearly have the structural integrity needed to execute a streight punch with this, while not bending the wrist up as in Clutching Feathers.  

I could rake down with it, zipper-like in Short #2, or could rake inward with the hand vertical, as in Leaping Crane or Gathering Clouds (Gathering Clouds is EPAC for Parting the Waves.)  The middle knuckle had a bracing angle with the downward vertical rake in Short #2, i.e. the index finger ... yes, I know some people of high rank have changed this to a punch - probably because you can abrade the skin right off the lower tip of the knuckle hitting a Gi or Canves Bag this way.  In Leaping Crane or Gathering Clouds, the bracing angle is along the Phalanges into the carpals, and you get some additional backup mass by having the fist behind the weapon, not a lot, but some.  In Clutching Feather (Eagle Beak is the closest in Tracyese) you bend the vertical fist upward slightly so the index finger creates a bracing angle.

It seems to me that I saw Mr. Parker punching with a middle knuckle fist, almost any time he wanted to make a point, get it?  Like in pinpointing.  

1) He extended the middle knuckle forming the striking surface of the weapon;

2)  He then opened the index finger slightly,  keeping the joint nearest the finger tip streight.  

3) He then laid the streightened  index finger joint, flat across the middle knuckle,  (joint closest to the tip of the middle finger) and just touched the ring finger with the index finger.  

4) He then locked the entire fist into a compact unit by squeezing the index finger with the thumb, which also touched the ring finger.

5) This formed a Bracing Angle (there it is again) by not allowing the middle knuckle to be compressed or pushed back into the fist.  It was not a weak weapon for direct punching, even when you don't extend it much.  The thumb locks down over the extended middle finger and the tip of the thumb actually touches the ring finger.  


(YES THIS IS AWKWARD UNTIL YOU LEARN IT, THEN THE FIST FORMS WITHOUT THINKING, TIGHT, AND WITH LESS SURFACE AREA FOR THE STRIKE, UTILIZING THE SAME FORCE, YOU GET MORE POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH, BUT YOU ALSO GET MORE PENETRATION ... IF THE HAND DOES NOT COLLAPSE DUE TO IMPROPER FIST FORMATION.)

My big strong bodybuilder type students are unable to push the middle knuckle into the fist.  I can easily push their's in, until I teach them this way of doing it.  *(Geez this was hard to write - if you don't undersand, I can see why.  Maybe Mr. C can explain it better)* 

I am not taking any credit for this, other than I paid attention to my seniors in the Art.

Oss,
-Michael:asian:


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## Kempojujutsu (Dec 21, 2002)

I have two ways of making a fist. First one is the way I show women who have finger nails, but is also design for men. Lay the fingers over like your are waving good bye. Bring the thumb across, this way the finger nails don't dig in to the skin. The second way is to roll all the fingers but the index finger. The index finger should lay flat against the palm. This is known as a Kempo fist. The fist should be held relaxed, so the punch has some snap on it. If you hold the fist in a tight clinch the muscles contract and you lose some speed on your punch.
Bob :asian:


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## lhommedieu (Dec 21, 2002)

The information presented on this tread corresponds to what I've been taught:

1.  The fist should remain relaxed until striking
2.  I was taught how to use the "kempo fist" in my Kajukenbo training; not only is this is a stronger fist due to structural considerations, but also that it exposes the knuckles a little more.
3.  The fist is easier to make if you start rolling from the pinkie down, as it is easier to get the index finger to lie flat once you have practiced it this way.
4.  Gripping more tightly with the pinkie and ring fingers than the index finger ensures a stonger fist and makes the wrist stronger as well.  This is epecially true when holding a weapon such as an eskrima stick or dagger.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Elfan (Dec 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *3.  The fist is easier to make if you start rolling from the pinkie down, as it is easier to get the index finger to lie flat once you have practiced it this way.*



Really?  I find it almost imposible to do the flat index finger thing when going from pinkie to index.

Not that I use it much. I experimented with the flat index finger and decided I prefered to not have it.


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## lhommedieu (Dec 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *Really?  I find it almost imposible to do the flat index finger thing when going from pinkie to index.*



To each his own.  I've always felt spastic going the other way.  Granted that it's true that it's difficult to make without a lot of practice.  The only way I can do it is to make a "finger gun" and then fold my thumb over the flat index.  As this doesn't come naturally to me I don't use it either - but there are a lot who do.

BTW, what sticks did you wind up getting?

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Elfan (Dec 22, 2002)

I'm in the middle of a lot of family and schools stuf now (and got to apply to college rather soon) so I havn't gotten a pair yet.


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## Brother John (Dec 22, 2002)

Fist fromation.
When I began training in GoJu Ryu years ago my instructor taught me to make the fist with the thumb 'along-side'. When I asked him why he said that it was:
tighter: the thumb is paralel with the index finger so that when you are holding your fist palm down the point of the thumb is pointed at the ground. This position reinforces the fingers.
Second: it's faster to form. Moving the thumb 'under' the fingers is a further trip to take. Simply squeezing in the thumb is quicker.
Third: Weapon fit. If you look at your fist from the front, putting your thumb on the bottom makes your fist "taller", whereas laying it along-side doesn't really add that much to it's width as there is kindof a valey to lay it in.

A more obscure point. The muscles used in squeezing the thumb to the side of the fist are few, to move it under the fingers you must engage muscles that extend up the forearm and across the elbow joint... this tension slows the arm just a bit.
Something to think about.
JD: next time you come for class.... lets talk about it. I'll show you more.
Great subject!!!!
Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Dec 22, 2002)

Just so I don't get sued:
FIRST ORDER of BUSINESS: Wrist alignment. The thumb under is better for a beginner who hasn't yet made proper wrist alignment 'instinctual'. The thumb along-side is good for fist tightness, the thumb under reinforces the wrist.... but again... also slows it down.
We're talking miliseconds here....
Your Brother
John


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## Jill666 (Dec 27, 2002)

I also keep the thumb to the side of the index finger, instead of laying it across the fingers. I find it keeps my wrist in better alignment, and I haven't split my first two knuckles open since.

Was it Kirk who also did this? Did you find the same thing?

:knight: Jill


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## Kirk (Dec 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jill666 _
> *I also keep the thumb to the side of the index finger, instead of laying it across the fingers. I find it keeps my wrist in better alignment, and I haven't split my first two knuckles open since.
> 
> Was it Kirk who also did this? Did you find the same thing?
> ...



Yes, and Yes!  :asian:


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## Elfan (Dec 28, 2002)

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

What part of the first do you strike with?  I use the pointer and middle knuckels.


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## rachel (Jan 1, 2003)

my problem with punches is that I must be hitting wrong with my right fist. It bruises very quickly on my ring finger and pinkie knuckles. I also hit very hard with that hand. My left hand i punch with  is fine. i must be punching wrong or fisting wrong. Any ideas?


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## Kirk (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *my problem with punches is that I must be hitting wrong with my right fist. It bruises very quickly on my ring finger and pinkie knuckles. I also hit very hard with that hand. My left hand i punch with  is fine. i must be punching wrong or fisting wrong. Any ideas? *



Focus on the impact being in your pointer and middle finger
knuckles.


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## lhommedieu (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *i must be punching wrong or fisting wrong. Any ideas? *



Rachel,

Assuming that you are making a fist the same way with both hands, and that you are making the fist correctly, consider the following:

1. The body-mechanic that you are using to throw a punch differs slightly from one side to the other, with the result that the fist is landing slightly differently.

2.  The fist has a weak structure, from an anatomical standpoint, for striking.  Almost anyone who strikes regularly with his or her fist ends up hurting the muscles, tendons, bones, etc. in their hands at some point in their training.  While practicing hitting hard objects may have practical benefits in some contexts, it is almost certain that overhitting hard objects is not good for your hands.  Even if you are only hitting focus mitts and the heavy bag, consider wrapping your hands the way that boxers do and use a light bag glove.

3. You may have sustained an injury that is not healing and just keep reinjuring your hand by not resting it enough.  Consider using the kinds of herbal products that martial artists have used through the ages to help speed up the healing process - and give your hand plenty of rest in between training sessions.  If you would like some suggestions on which products to use, email me privately.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## rachel (Jan 10, 2003)

I work for the post office and I key big bundles of mail. I key right handed all day and hurl big bundles of mail with my right hand . I believe I have a little carpal tunnel syndrome in that  wrist. Maybe that's why I hit differently with it. Also when we do self defense techniques and my right hand is twisted, I don't feel the pain like I do in my left. It's almost immune to pain in that respect.


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## Elfan (Apr 2, 2003)

It was mentioned in another thread that some Wing Chun practicioners prefer to strike with the smaller knuckles?  Anyone else heard of this?


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## yilisifu (Apr 3, 2003)

Yes, they do.  Sometimes they utilize the last three knuckles as well.  The wrist is snapped upward just prior to impact.  However, in Yilichuan, we thrust with the first two knuckles.


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## Greggers69 (Apr 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Just so I don't get sued:
> FIRST ORDER of BUSINESS: Wrist alignment. The thumb under is better for a beginner who hasn't yet made proper wrist alignment 'instinctual'. The thumb along-side is good for fist tightness, the thumb under reinforces the wrist.... but again... also slows it down.
> We're talking miliseconds here....
> ...







Now How about when you try this and you jam your thumb?  Is this due to over rotating your punch or just sticking your thumb out to much.  :asian:


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## Elfan (Apr 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Greggers69 _
> *Now How about when you try this and you jam your thumb?  Is this due to over rotating your punch or just sticking your thumb out to much.  :asian: *



Cause its sticking out.  Try making a first like that and hitting something hard with the thumb to simulate a miss and see how that feels.


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## lhommedieu (Apr 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rachel _
> *I work for the post office and I key big bundles of mail. I key right handed all day and hurl big bundles of mail with my right hand . I believe I have a little carpal tunnel syndrome in that  wrist. Maybe that's why I hit differently with it. Also when we do self defense techniques and my right hand is twisted, I don't feel the pain like I do in my left. It's almost immune to pain in that respect. *



It's possible that the tendons in your wrist have become slightly twisted through repetitive movements, as you describe above.  This will often cause the small bones in your wrist to become misalligned, which may be why you've become comfortable hitting with your hands in specific positions.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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