# Just plain Kenpo Karate



## unidos (Oct 1, 2003)

Is there such a thing as just plain Kenpo Karate that is not based on Ed Parker system or variations? 

If so, what are techniques, and Katas used.

Thanks


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## Kempo Guy (Oct 1, 2003)

Saying Kenpo Karate is as generic as saying Kung Fu. 
It is a catch all phrase...

There's got to be dozens of styles that are not affiliated with the Parker lineage.

KG


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## unidos (Oct 1, 2003)

Kenpo Karate taught at the dojo in our town is an ecclectic blend of Shorinji Kenpo, Shotokan, Aiki-jutsu and Kyusho. It is is a branch of a Kenpo system known as "Kamisama Bushi Kan Kenpo Jutsu" (founded by Soke Grady) and that is directly related to a system known as "Kamishin Ryu Kenpo Jutsu" (founded by Soke Albert Church).

Do you know anything about this particular style of Kenpo?


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## RCastillo (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by unidos _
> *Is there such a thing as just plain Kenpo Karate that is not based on Ed Parker system or variations?
> 
> If so, what are techniques, and Katas used.
> ...



If that being the case, I'll bet they have no katas at all! Not to say it wouldn't be interesting. It's origin would be something to watch, and study.:asian:


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## pknox (Oct 1, 2003)

I think Shorinji Kempo would be considered such a system, as its origin is from Northern Chinese Kung Fu, Japanese Jujitsu, and some other arts studied by the founder, Doshin So.  While these arts may have influenced GM Parker, I don't believe So had any contact with him, so his art should be free of direct Parker influences.

Most Okinawan Kempo systems also predate GM Parker.


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by unidos _*
> Is there such a thing as just plain Kenpo Karate that is not based on Ed Parker system or variations? If so, what are techniques, and Katas used.
> *



Sure, it is possible, there could be many other Brands of NON ED Parker Kenpo, but one must be careful -- in this day an age People can call what they teach anything they want, and all the while "borrow" material that has been already developed and rename it their "original" material.  So thorough investigation would be in order to decide.

For the system to NOT be of Ed Parker lineage, one would have to study the curriculum and terminology that is being used and see if there is any close resemblances to already established curriculums, terms, sequences, sets, forms, self defense techniques, or any other material other than basic movements that are linked to EPAK.

:asian:


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## John Bishop (Oct 2, 2003)

Unidos:
Just do a Google search on "Soke Albert Church".  Loads of information.  His Kempo roots appear to be in the Japanese systems.  
The term Kenpo/Kempo is very generic and common in Japan and Okinawa.  It basically identifies a system that has roots that go back to a Chinese system. 
Asking if there is just a plain "Kenpo" system would be like asking if there is just a plain "Kung Fu" or plain "Karate" system.    
If your interested in Kenpo systems that have evolved from the James Mitose school in Hawaii, I have a lineage chart on my website:  http://interactivesmack.com/kajukenbo/kenpofamilytree.cfm


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## MisterMike (Oct 2, 2003)

If you look far back enough, almost every teacher had his own "system." And even those who stayed within, most likely taught variations. The number of MA systems is mind boggling.

One of the advantages to Ed Parker's system was is was formalized to aid in it's being taught uniformly. Of course it was also deemed to be an evolving system, one that could change with the times.

But we can all see how once Mr. Parker passed, everyone claimed to know the Real way it was taught. Now you have today 10's of Parker variants, maybe 100's. Just the way systems split 100's of years ago in China, Okinawa and Japan.

This makes it very difficult to find the "original" system of any style. Some are more documented than others of course and were able to go through the ages more or less in the same form. Daito-ryu Aiki-Jujutsu for instance.


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## pete (Oct 2, 2003)

is an art or a style determined by techniques or principles?


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## Disco (Oct 2, 2003)

Interesting question. In my opinion I would say principles. One can find many techniques that are the same in different styles.


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## MisterMike (Oct 2, 2003)

I think styles are subsets of the Art, and I think they could contain variations of techniques and principles, but more-so the techniques.


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## pete (Oct 2, 2003)

the way i see it is each style is based on the physical interpretation of an art's principles.  therefore, all kenpo styles should be based on the same collection of principles, even though they may have differences in execution and methodology.

if this is correct, and principles are not violated from one style to another, then each of the 100s of variants are in fact the original and all is good.

if any of the styles out there do violate principles, then they may not actually belong to the same art.  are there any styles of kenpo that are in contradiction on a principle?


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## Zoran (Oct 3, 2003)

*Art* - _ noun:   a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation (Example: "The art of conversation")_

Art is really a generic term then. 
The art of combat - Martial Arts
The art of Japanese grappling - Jujutsu, Sumo, Judo
The art of Okinawan combat - Kenpo or Karate

*Style* - _noun:   a way of expressing something (in language or art or music etc.) that is characteristic of a particular person or group of people or period (Example: "All the reporters were expected to adopt the style of the newspaper")_

The above definition can be expanded to include a point of origin. Such as Kenpo having it's roots in China through the Okinawan teachers that created the style. Hence style in martial arts can represent a point of origin as well as some common ideals and methods that were passed down over time.

*System* - _noun:   a procedure or process for obtaining an objective (Example: "They had to devise a system that did not depend on cooperation")_

In martial arts, EPAK  would then be considered a system. As would any other system of Martial Arts. As would Kajukenbo, Ryukyu Kenpo, as well as any martial arts school would be teaching some sort of system. However, one could argue that what was once a system could become a style. Using the term of American Kenpo, as the various schools and instructiors have/are changing the system as time progresses, it is more becoming a term that refers to a style that houses many systems. Maybe AK is not at that point yet, or maybe it is... The same is true for the other, once upon a time, systems that are now styles.

So Kenpo is a *style* that has many *systems* as well as sub-*styles*, that teaches primarily empty handed combat *arts* as well as some form of weapon *arts* which has it's roots in Chinese martial *arts*.


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## WhiteTiger (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by unidos _
> *Is there such a thing as just plain Kenpo Karate that is not based on Ed Parker system or variations?
> 
> If so, what are techniques, and Katas used.
> ...



As I understand it KE"N"PO, spelled with an "N" was a publishing error when James Mitose published his first book.  Since the "N" was consistant with the english pronunciation of the word, he chose to keep the "N" to avoid confussion.  Other systems carring the name KE"M"PO from Japan or Okinawa don't necessarily have any tie with the system James Mitose taught in Hawaii.

Several other threads have already addressed the "Fist Law", "Kempo", and "Chuan 'Fa" relationship so I will not repeat them here.

It can, for the most part, be said that if it is spelled "KENPO" it is from the Mitose lineage.


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## Zoran (Oct 4, 2003)

> _  Other systems carring the name KE"M"PO from Japan or Okinawa don't necessarily have any tie with the system James Mitose taught in Hawaii.
> _


_ 

Both Koshu Ryu Kempo (Mitose) and Karaho Kempo (Chow) use the "M" spelling. 

But yes, just because it says Kempo or Kenpo does not necessarily mean lineage to either Mitose, Chow, or Parker. Prime examples are Okinawan Kempo, Ryukyu Kenpo, and Shorirjji Kempo. However, the first two may have a sideways relationship, somthing to do with the founders of those styles (don't ask what it is, can't recall at this time)._


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## WhiteTiger (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> *Both Koshu Ryu Kempo (Mitose) and Karaho Kempo (Chow) use the "M" spelling. *



I have seen both of these systems use both spellings, were they changed from "M" to "N" and back to the "M", perhaps to differentiate them from the Parker Kenpo line?  Does anyone know?


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## ghp (Mar 2, 2006)

WhiteTiger said:
			
		

> I have seen both of these systems use both spellings, were they changed from "M" to "N" and back to the "M", perhaps to differentiate them from the Parker Kenpo line? Does anyone know?


 
Sorry to resurrect a dead thread. The "M" vs. "N" romaji ["English"] spellings are actually the same thing in Japanese; keNpo and keMpo don't mean anything other than "boxing" [implied = Chinese boxing]. When looking at the kanji alone*, _fist_ is pronounced "ken"; when compounded with "po/ho" [_laws/methods_], the "n" is still there, but it can morph into an "m" sound when spoken ... it's easier to say "kempo" than "kenpo". However, while both renditions are essentially correct, ke*N*po is "grammatically correct." Why? Well, when using katakana or hiragana to write the word, you only can spell it "ke-n-po-u" (extended "o" sound) 

This same morphing sound is found in the Japanese word for newspaper: Shinbun. Often you will see it Romanized as Shi*M*bun. However, when it is spelled out in the katakana/hirakana syllabaries, it is definitely Shi*N*bun.

An English equivalent would be how "grand pa" quickly changes to "grampa" after it is repeated or said quickly -- "grampa" is easier on the tongue.

Now, I shall allow the dead to be buried.

Cheers,
Guy Power

*Technicality:


> When looking at the kanji alone, _fist_ is pronounced "ken"; ...


 Actually, when this kanji stands *alone*, it is pronounced "kobushi" (fist), using the "kun" reading [native Japanese word] vice the borrowed Chinese sound ["On" reading].  When Chinese writing was imported into Japan its Chinese sounds were also imported.  Similar in how Norman-French entered the Anglo-Saxon language after the Norman Conquest of England in 1066 -- the "English" vocabulary was doubled


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Mar 8, 2006)

Never apologize for resurrecting a dead thread when you have such excellent material to add to it. 
Thanks, Guy! :asian:


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## Matt (Mar 8, 2006)

ghp said:
			
		

> An English equivalent would be how "grand pa" quickly changes to "grampa" after it is repeated or said quickly -- "grampa" is easier on the tongue.



That's a really nice example - I'm going to use that one. It's a lot easier than explaining the vagaries of romanisation to some one who really didn't want that much information to begin with. Brilliant. 

Matt


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 8, 2006)

just plain kenpo is what we all strive to learn.

epak/tracy/kosho ryu/shorinji/kadjukembo/whatever...these are delivery systems for certain universal concepts.  truth is truth.  how you get to the truth is of secondary importance.

for that matter, i'd say we're all striving to learn 'just plain martial arts', or even 'just plain life'.


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## Gentle Fist (Mar 8, 2006)

ghp said:
			
		

> Sorry to resurrect a dead thread. The "M" vs. "N" romaji ["English"] spellings are actually the same thing in Japanese; keNpo and keMpo don't mean anything other than "boxing" [implied = Chinese boxing]. When looking at the kanji alone*, _fist_ is pronounced "ken"; when compounded with "po/ho" [_laws/methods_], the "n" is still there, but it can morph into an "m" sound when spoken ... it's easier to say "kempo" than "kenpo". However, while both renditions are essentially correct, ke*N*po is "grammatically correct." Why? Well, when using katakana or hiragana to write the word, you only can spell it "ke-n-po-u" (extended "o" sound)
> 
> This same morphing sound is found in the Japanese word for newspaper: Shinbun. Often you will see it Romanized as Shi*M*bun. However, when it is spelled out in the katakana/hirakana syllabaries, it is definitely Shi*N*bun.
> 
> ...


 

Great Post!


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