# Anyone have any Endust?



## Edmund BlackAdder (May 8, 2006)

This place is as busy as the saloon in a Ghost Town. 

Anyone still here who studies under SKH?

Heard he either was going to Japan, or had gone to Japan. Any News?


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## lalom (May 12, 2006)

Yes, Mr. Hayes has been on a trip to Japan of which I believe he has returned.  He is scheduled to return on the 15th of May.  More information about his trip can be found at http://www.skhquest.com/Articles/WordsFromAnShu.aspx


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## Don Roley (May 14, 2006)

I have heard of his visit to the Honbu dojo. There seems to be some differences in what other people in Japan are saying about it and what Hayes is saying. I do not go to Sunday training myself. I reserve saying anything here until I check some stuff. But there may be a lot more to the story than the side that Hayes is presenting to the world.


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## Deaf (May 15, 2006)

althought it really doesn't matter... however I would love to hear what some of those differences are especially since his article was a bit... egoistical!


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## Don Roley (May 16, 2006)

Deaf said:
			
		

> althought it really doesn't matter... however I would love to hear what some of those differences are especially since his article was a bit... egoistical!



I really don't look forward to getting into the middle of things by being the bearer of unpleasant news.... But I just checked something and it made my jaw hit the floor.

I have been told that Hatsumi is really, really pissed off about the whole thing of Hayes using the name "Kukishinden ryu" in some teaching certificates and such he gives out. It is just a matter of course in Japanese culture that you do not do that type of thing without the soke's permission. It is something you don't even bother to lay out because it is just common sense. But then again, so is not coming to class drunk and we know that has happened. It is just not done in Japanese martial arts to do that type of thing, and yet Hayes did it, continues to do it and many people are confused by the issue.

I need to stress that Hatsumi never used the term ?? (Hamon- to throw out, ban) in relation to Hayes. Hatsumi has often said he does not need to ban people because the bad ones all fade away. In fact, I think he set things up so that he does not have the power to toss anyone out and it requires ten people of tenth dan to cause someone to be booted.

But, Hatsumi did get mad and ordered that Hayes tablet in the tenth dan board be taken down.

It may not sound like a lot, but this is something in my Japan experience is worse than being slapped in public would be for Americans. I went and saw it for myself. I looked for Hayes' tablet and it was no longer there. Hayes no longer stands next to other people who are considered the highest in the Bujinkan.

Hayes has not been thrown out. His rank has not been revoked. But this very public display of a withdrawing of support by his teacher is much worse IMO in a Japanese context than those acts would be in an American one. And it is all over the use of the Kukishinden ryu name without permission- a fact that Hatsumi has been aware of for a long time.

So you can see how I just can't concieve of Hayes being treated as friendly as he seems to be making it sound. The tablet has been taken down. You can search for it yourself. You can ask Hatsumi if you want about it. I don't have much of a stake in the matter.


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## mrhnau (May 16, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I really don't look forward to getting into the middle of things by being the bearer of unpleasant news.... But I just checked something and it made my jaw hit the floor.
> 
> I have been told that Hatsumi is really, really pissed off about the whole thing of Hayes using the name "Kukishinden ryu" in some teaching certificates and such he gives out. It is just a matter of course in Japanese culture that you do not do that type of thing without the soke's permission. It is something you don't even bother to lay out because it is just common sense. But then again, so is not coming to class drunk and we know that has happened. It is just not done in Japanese martial arts to do that type of thing, and yet Hayes did it, continues to do it and many people are confused by the issue.
> 
> ...



wow... is there any kind of precedent for this? Been done before? If so, under what circumstances?

Interesting stuff!


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## Deaf (May 17, 2006)

This is also being mentioned by Phil Legare in his "public forum" as well.  ( regarding SKH's tablet being taking down etc. )

http://shinkentaijutsu.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=256&highlight=

Interesting spin of things I suppose, is that Mr. Legare did say that Hayes is no longer recognized as a judan.


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## lalom (May 17, 2006)

So it's official then, from Hatsumi Sensei, that Mr. Hayes has been removed from the Bujinkan and his rank has been revoked.  This was told directly to Phillip Legare by Soke himself according to that post.


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## eyebeams (May 17, 2006)

Did SKH ever receive other forms of licensing (aside from his belts)?


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## mrhnau (May 17, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> So it's official then, from Hatsumi Sensei, that Mr. Hayes has been removed from the Bujinkan and his rank has been revoked.  This was told directly to Phillip Legare by Soke himself according to that post.



The way I've read it, he is not "removed" from the Bujinkan, just no longer recognized as judan. I assume being "removed" would imply that he could no longer train w/ Hatsumi? Was this implied or stated?

I'm no expert on Quest, TSD, whatever name... I have seen that he sells lessons for Gyokko ryu at least. So, I'm wondering... why was the topic of kukishiden ryu brought up, but not the others? Was this the only one on certificates?

Sorry if the question seems a bit naive, I'm kind of clueless as to the proceedings of SKH et al...


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## Tengu6 (May 17, 2006)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> The way I've read it, he is not "removed" from the Bujinkan, just no longer recognized as judan. I assume being "removed" would imply that he could no longer train w/ Hatsumi? Was this implied or stated?
> 
> I'm no expert on Quest, TSD, whatever name... I have seen that he sells lessons for Gyokko ryu at least. So, I'm wondering... why was the topic of kukishiden ryu brought up, but not the others? Was this the only one on certificates?
> 
> Sorry if the question seems a bit naive, I'm kind of clueless as to the proceedings of SKH et al...


 
Well, the news originated from this quote on Phil Lagare's forum:

"On 14 May 2006, during Hombu training, Soke had Steven K. Hayes' name placard taken off the Bujinkan rank board. There was no ceremony or fanfare, he just had Joji take it down while people were training. I was training in my usual corner there under the kamidana and by that first rank board when Joji did it. Joji showed it to me and said Soke told him to take it down. Soke came up and said that SKH is no longer recognized as a judan in the Bujinkan. He is doing his own martial art and not a part of the Bujinkan anymore. There were a number of us who witnessed this event. Soke said that the Bujinkan does not need to expand anymore. We have enough good 15 dan who are training faithfully in the Bujinkan. Now is the time to refine and pair down what we already have. 

I am putting this on the open part of our BB so anyone can see this, per Soke's wishes. "

So, according to those who were there, SKH is officially no longer in the Bujinkan. Interpret that however you want.

Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (May 18, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> So, according to those who were there, SKH is officially no longer in the Bujinkan.



That is not quite the way I heard it from a Japanese source. It was stressed to me that Hatsumi never used the term _hamon_ which means to throw out. Hatsumi has never thrown anyone out AFAIK.

Let me put it like this, in Japan they tend to avoid rejecting someone or tossing them out. Instead they try to make things so uncomfortable that the person leaves on his own.

The only thing I can say is that Hatsumi ordered the tablet taken down. I confirmed that with my own eyes. Hayes could still be part of the Bujinkan, but Hatsumi's act is just one saying that he is no longer supporting what Hayes does in any way.

Now, any Japanese I work or deal with would be mortified at this. If their tablet had been taken down, they would probably apologize and correct their behavior or quit. Probably both. Maybe Hatsumi thinks that Hayes will do the same thing. 

But the thing I want to stress is that the _native speaker of Japanese_ who was involved in this stressed that the word _hamon_ was not used and that Hayes has not been tossed out of the Bujinkan. Things may change. But do not be surprised if Hayes makes a single training session again in the future. He has not been tossed out, but he is not being supported by Hatsumi at all.


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## George Kohler (May 18, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But the thing I want to stress is that the _native speaker of Japanese_ who was involved in this stressed that the word _hamon_ was not used and that Hayes has not been tossed out of the Bujinkan. Things may change. But do not be surprised if Hayes makes a single training session again in the future. He has not been tossed out, but he is not being supported by Hatsumi at all.


 
Maybe this needs to be stressed on other sites like Martial Arts Planet and E-Budo. Everybody at both places seems to think that this was a "Hamon."


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## MJS (May 18, 2006)

Interesting thread. I'll start off by saying that I don't know much about BBT, so please forgive any misunderstandings on my part.

As for my questions, they are directed at Don, but anyone is free to answer.

Don, reading these posts, does this mean that while SKH may not have been kicked out, but does not have the support of Hatusmi, that he is no longer welcome to train with Hatsumi in Japan?

Manaka went out to begin his own path with Jinenkan. Does Hatsumi support what he did?

Mike


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## Don Roley (May 18, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Don, reading these posts, does this mean that while SKH may not have been kicked out, but does not have the support of Hatusmi, that he is no longer welcome to train with Hatsumi in Japan?
> 
> Manaka went out to begin his own path with Jinenkan. Does Hatsumi support what he did?



Hatsumi has nothing to do with what Manaka is doing. There are a lot of things why Manaka finally chose to leave.

As for Hayes, I would change what you say from, "he is no longer welcome to train with Hatsumi in Japan" to "he would not find a very warm welcome if he trained in Japan."

Have you ever had a guest not leave when you wanted him to? You didn't tell him straight out to leave- at least not the first hour. You did not make him feel welcome, but did not toss him out the door. That is kind of the situation that Hayes has been in for a long time from what I have heard. People seem to think that because he trained in Japan that Hatsumi stood by and supported everything he did. That is not the case.


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## MJS (May 18, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Hatsumi has nothing to do with what Manaka is doing. There are a lot of things why Manaka finally chose to leave.


 
Yes, I realize that.  I guess where I was going with that was, both Manaka and Hayes seem to have taken their training with Hatsumi and eventually went out and did their own thing.  Hatsumi removed the tablet of Hayes.  Did he do the same for Manaka?



> As for Hayes, I would change what you say from, "he is no longer welcome to train with Hatsumi in Japan" to "he would not find a very warm welcome if he trained in Japan."


 
Thanks for the clarification.



> Have you ever had a guest not leave when you wanted him to? You didn't tell him straight out to leave- at least not the first hour. You did not make him feel welcome, but did not toss him out the door. That is kind of the situation that Hayes has been in for a long time from what I have heard. People seem to think that because he trained in Japan that Hatsumi stood by and supported everything he did. That is not the case.


 
LOL, yes, I've had more than a few times where I was in that position.  Thanks again for clarifying.

Mike


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## lalom (May 18, 2006)

Sounds pretty basic to me that Mr. Hayes has done essentially what Manaka and Tanemura did.  They trained with Soke and, for whatever reason or whatever transpired, they decided to do their own thing.  Different circumstances, same result.  That is why I asked in another thread if the Kasumi-An (Hayes' organization) will be considered another X-Kan?  Of course that topic can be addressed on the other thread I started.


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## Deaf (May 18, 2006)

Sorry but no I don't agree with you.  Hayes did NOT go the same route as Manaka and Tanemura.  Both oManaka and Tanemura parted ways from Hatsumi for reasons none of us really know for sure nor should speculate about.  However Manaka and Tanemura have FULL parted ways and started their own schools. Where as Hayes has NOT!

Hayes has made no attempt to part ways from the Bujinkan, still claims membership within the Bujinkan, still claims that his students can recieve Bujinkan rank and certificates and IMO, has done nothing but moved or refined things as he sees fit to help him make more money regardless of how disrespectful it looked towards Hatsumi Sensei.

So please do NOT compare Hayes to Manaka nor Tanemura!


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## lalom (May 18, 2006)

Isn't this exactly what we've been talking about?  The fact that Mr. Hayes' ties with the Bujinkan have been severed by Soke?  Soke said it is "a separate art" now. 

Same as Tanemura and Manaka.  Different situations and ways of coming about - same result at the end. Agree or don't but that's how I see it.


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## Don Roley (May 18, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Isn't this exactly what we've been talking about?  The fact that Mr. Hayes' ties with the Bujinkan have been severed by Soke?  Soke said it is "a separate art" now.
> 
> Same as Tanemura and Manaka.  Different situations and ways of coming about - same result at the end. Agree or don't but that's how I see it.



Hatsumi is seeming to say that Hayes is in the same camp as them. But he did not use the term "Hamon" and instead is saying that for years he has not been a member of the Bujinkan. Thus there is no need to toss him out- he already is out. People just need to know that instead of thinking he is part of the Bujinkan.

Yeah, I know... he has showed up for training despite being not being a Bujinkan member. I am not quite sure how that works. In Japan, people are not big on public displays and a few people have gotten into training despite not being Bujinkan members. I hear that he still issues certificates, but I have not seen them myself. I am told that he has not been paying up for years. So I don't know how he could be giving out certificates and such.

But the native speaker clearly heard Hatsumi say that what Hayes is doing *is not* Bujinkan. He is not Bujinkan as far as Hatsumi is concerned. It is a seperate art. Toshindo is totally different. 

But I have predicted that maybe Hayes will show up for training once again and people will be confused over the matter because they thought that this means that the doors will be closed to him.


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## MJS (May 18, 2006)

I'm still interested in hearing about Manaka.  Is/was Hatsumi supportive of what he did?  Did Hatsumi remove Manakas name as he did Hayes?


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## Don Roley (May 19, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> I'm still interested in hearing about Manaka.  Is/was Hatsumi supportive of what he did?  Did Hatsumi remove Manakas name as he did Hayes?



I do not remember seeing it. When a person leaves the system, it is natural to take down their tablet. Manaka left the Bujinkan and now Hayes has left.

And I would not say that Hatsumi is/was supportive of what Manaka did/does. Manaka does call what he does a different name. But there were stories about bad relations between the two before the split. Hatsumi gave an order that training should not be held by Japanese shihan in America without his approval. And I have (maybe had- don't know if I still have it) a video tape of Manaka admiting at a seminar that he went behind Hatsumi's back to give it, and probably did more. Can you imagine how that sort of thing went over as news came back to Japan? If I have a video tape of it, it is not hard to imagine someone slipping a copy into Hatsumi's hands.

So no, when Manaka walked out, Hatsumi seems to be glad to see him leave. But don't expect to hear him trash Manaka public. That is just not his style. That is not what Japanese do as a general rule.


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## Don Roley (May 19, 2006)

Here is a link to Johji Ohashi's web site. He is the guy who takes money and runs things for Hatsumi. 

http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/



> Although the latest news from the Hombu seems to have surprised many people, the facts involved are very simple.
> 
> Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away from the Bujinkan and so he is no longer recognized as a Bujinkan member.  His name placard has been removed from the 10th dan board in the Hombu Dojo.
> (Soke doesn't care if people call it a Hamon or not.)
> ...



If you do not want to take my word for things, take it up with Hatsumi. It is hard to argue that the source above is not close to Hatsumi or does not have the full story.

Unfortunatly, it looks like there will be some controversy as I just saw this on Hayes' site.



> Friday, May 19, 2006 - Wild hysterical internet rumors again! Have you heard these rumors of Hatsumi Sensei no longer being my sensei? We've heard nothing from Hatsumi Sensei himself of course, but since several people are trying their best to promote these rumors I should address them here. These kinds of rumors pop up on the internet every year or so, and I have always found it better to ignore them publicly and allow folks to discover the truth themselves in time, but these current rumors are so virulent that it seems appropriate make a comment here. Just weeks ago, Rumiko and I had a delightful time training and speaking with Hatsumi Sensei in Japan. Hatsumi Sensei will always be "my sensei" and as always I accord him my highest respect and gratitude for all he has shared with me. I will write to him and ask what he would like us to say at this point.



I happen to think that the announcement on Johji Ohashi's web site can be classified as a bit more than internet rumor. It is about as public a statement as you can get. Hayes moved on from the Bujinkan. He is not teaching Bujinkan stuff. There is nothing wrong with that. It is just the confusion over the matter with people thinking that what they get from him is the same as the stuff Hatsumi is teaching.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 20, 2006)

Johji Ohashi's website makes it clear as day to me.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Don Roley (May 20, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Johji Ohashi's website makes it clear as day to me.



Well, there still seems to be a lot of confusion. And a lot of screaming. When I saw the letter to me with a request to pass along the information I had a feeling of dread. And my fears have come true. Already there are people saying that Phil Legare is only saying what he saw due to a desire to steal Toshindo students. Someone on another board attacked me and tried to bait me into a flame war when I clarified some issues. He went on a huge rant trashing Hatsumi for his action and also told us we should not be talking trash about people like Hayes on the internet.  

I have seen this happen before and can only hope that the announcement might stop the most vocal attacks. If you have any problems with the announcement, take it up with Hatsumi. You can't say that Johji Ohashi is trying to steal students from Hayes or that he does not know what is going on with Hatsumi.

But I suspect that maybe Hayes, since he was not thrown out, will try to get back in good with Hatsumi and attend training once more. And that is going to be a whole new can of worms. I really am not looking forward to that if it happens.


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## Tengu6 (May 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Someone on another board attacked me and tried to bait me into a flame war when I clarified some issues. He went on a huge rant trashing Hatsumi for his action and also told us we should not be talking trash about people like Hayes on the internet.  .


 
Don, the "paper mountain" always has something to say, unfortunately there is never much (any) substance. It is best to just avoid any discussion with him, it only keeps him around longer.

Markk Bush


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 21, 2006)

Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away from the Bujinkan and so he is *no longer recognized as a Bujinkan member*. His name placard has been removed from the 10th dan board in the Hombu Dojo.
(*Soke doesn't care if people call it a Hamon or not*.)

Hey Don,

I can only imagine what is being said behind closed doors.  However, when I look at the above statement it seems pretty clear what the message is
to me!  Knowing how close both Phil Legare and Johji Ohashi are there 
credibility with me is without question. (neither would do this if not
directed to)  No matter what, it is a sad event all the way around for 
everybody involved! 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## lalom (May 21, 2006)

Sad day indeed.  I don't think that Mr. Hayes should "try" and get back in good with Soke as Don speculates he will.  Maybe he will.  I just don't think he should.  Yes, To-Shin Do is different and it isn't Bujinkan Budo.  In many ways similar, but indeed different.  

What I DO have a problem with is Soke's ethics.  If he is/was the upstanding professional as I have come to believe he is, then he should've directly and personally approached Mr. Hayes and let him know his issues and intentions for removal.  I know someone may assume that he already did based on Mr. Hayes' post about doing lunch with him, but since no one was there to witness it as such, then it is merely a speculation.  An assumption.  Why wait till a few weeks after Mr. Hayes is in Japan to do some "symbolic" removal of a nameplate?  Makes for a blurry statement.  I know, I know, "lalom, you obviously don't understand Japanese culture."  Please, spare me.  Be a man of integrity and make a formal and concise statement.  Not a gesture, use words that are vague, and say, "call it whatever you want."  Unethical is what I say.  Want to make things clear?  Then do it.

Soke is admired by most folks.  I think the way he went around doing what he's done, may have in fact had a positive effect on Mr. Hayes and a negative on himself.  Please folks.  This is my opinion of the situation and I continue to hold Soke in high regard.  Just think he could've done this in a more classy way - in a way that I've come to understand him to be.

Now off of my soapbox.  What's been done has been done.  Mr. Hayes is no longer in the Bujinkan.  So what?  Now what?  I just need to train!  As Tom Hanks so abley put it, "The sun will rise tomorrow."


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 21, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> What I DO have a problem with is Soke's ethics. If he is/was the upstanding professional as I have come to believe he is, then he should've directly and personally approached Mr. Hayes and let him know his issues and intentions for removal.


 
Hatsumi is Japanese. I can tell you're not. However, if he hadn't been, I'd agree with you.



			
				lalom said:
			
		

> Soke is admired by most folks. I think the way he went around doing what he's done, may have in fact had a positive effect on Mr. Hayes and a negative on himself.


 
You mean people would see Hayes as some sort of oppressed rebel struggling for freedom? Hmmm...:ninja:


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## Rich Parsons (May 21, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Sad day indeed. I don't think that Mr. Hayes should "try" and get back in good with Soke as Don speculates he will. Maybe he will. I just don't think he should. Yes, To-Shin Do is different and it isn't Bujinkan Budo. In many ways similar, but indeed different.
> 
> What I DO have a problem with is Soke's ethics. If he is/was the upstanding professional as I have come to believe he is, then he should've directly and personally approached Mr. Hayes and let him know his issues and intentions for removal. I know someone may assume that he already did based on Mr. Hayes' post about doing lunch with him, but since no one was there to witness it as such, then it is merely a speculation. An assumption. Why wait till a few weeks after Mr. Hayes is in Japan to do some "symbolic" removal of a nameplate? Makes for a blurry statement. I know, I know, "lalom, you obviously don't understand Japanese culture." Please, spare me. Be a man of integrity and make a formal and concise statement. Not a gesture, use words that are vague, and say, "call it whatever you want." Unethical is what I say. Want to make things clear? Then do it.
> 
> ...



I do not practice any Japanese art let alone that of Me Hayes or Hatsumi Soke. 

In your statement is an error in logic. 

To assume it is wrong to presume that Soke did try to communicate with Mr Hayes and yet you state we cannot do that because it was just the two of them. Then you go on to say his actions are unethical, without such communicate, which requires you to make some presumption of what did not occur at this said lunch meeting. 

It cannot be both ways.  If so then there is unethical behaviour on both parts. Or there may be on only one but as you stated it all depends upon what was said in this lunch meeting. 

My dealings with the Japanese in general, would have that their culture is full of formal rituals and formal communications. I would have expected that before such a formal event had occurred an invitation to be present or a meeting would have occurred to inform those involved.


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## r erman (May 21, 2006)

Mostly on topic:

Do any of you in Japan, who are closer to this decision, know if Rumiko's rank has been removed/revoked/no-longer-recognized as well?

She is co-founder of To Shin Do after all...and if not, what is the significance of that from a japanese cultural standpoint?


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## Dale Seago (May 21, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Hatsumi is Japanese. I can tell you're not. However, if he hadn't been, I'd agree with you.



Ditto. I don't know what was said at the luncheon, but I doubt it was very overtly negative to SKH. It wasn't mentioned at his website, but Moti Nativ was also there, and I could just email him if I really cared, which I don't. Or I could ask one of my students who's training in Japan right now to ask Nagato.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if SKH's comments about his Japan trip on his website were contributory to Soke's decision.

But it's not as though Soke hasn't made his views known less directly through intermediaries over the years, giving SKH ample opportunity to "adjust course" without the need for any direct interpersonal unpleasantness between him and Soke. Heck, I had a conversation once with Soke and Nagato where Soke was going on about SKH "going his own way", and I made a point of telling SKH about it so he could hopefully patch things up.

Oh, and by the way, that was seventeen years ago.


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## Don Roley (May 22, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> What I DO have a problem with is Soke's ethics.  If he is/was the upstanding professional as I have come to believe he is, then he should've directly and personally approached Mr. Hayes and let him know his issues and intentions for removal.  I know someone may assume that he already did based on Mr. Hayes' post about doing lunch with him, but since no one was there to witness it as such, then it is merely a speculation.  An assumption.  Why wait till a few weeks after Mr. Hayes is in Japan to do some "symbolic" removal of a nameplate?



Yes, some may assume that he did not tell Hayes what he was doing was not what Hatsumi wanted. But you can tell from my first post in this thread that the version of events I heard is not in the same flavor as what Hayes wrote about the situation after the fact.

Dale just said that he was involved as early as 17 years ago trying to tell Hayes about Hatsumi's thoughts. Yet no where will you see anything by Hayes that indicates that there is any problem with what he is doing in Hatsumi's eyes.

So, if a person keeps painting a certain version of events, do you keep trying to get him to accept another. Or do you come out with something that lets other people know? Remember the whole thing about the use of the Kukishinden ryu name? People think that because Hayes kept showing up to Japan and was not barred from entry that Hatsumi accepted and approved of his action. After this recent trip, the first thing you see from Hayes is an account that keeps up the impression that Hatsumi is active in what Hayes is doing and teaching. I really do not think Hatsumi had much of a choice than to let people know this way about where he stands on the matter.

This message was not so much for Hayes I think. This is for others to know how he feels. In Japanese culture, it is a drastic step. I am certain that in his mind, Hatsumi gave Hayes plenty of chances to make the situation right that were never followed through. It is really sad that it had to come to this.


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## lalom (May 22, 2006)

For sure...


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## Dale Seago (May 22, 2006)

Regarding Post #23 on page 2  ( http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=543990#post543990 ), someone may want to do a screen capture of the Hombu Administrator's announcement for posterity, as apparently it is going to go away soon:



> (I'll delete this comment in a few days because it has almost nothing to do with the two classes I'm in charge of -- May 22nd.)



There appears to be a "secondary message" in that announcement as well, along the lines of, "It's been done, it really has nothing to do with our Bujinkan training, so let's move on."


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## Tengu6 (May 22, 2006)

Here ya go:







Markk Bush


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## Dale Seago (May 22, 2006)

Wow. Apparently it's still just "wild hysterical internet rumors" until Soke makes the effort to reach out to An-shu and personally break the news to him. He's revised the May 19 message (which is no longer up) but has retained part of it, added new material, and dated it with today's date:



> *Monday, May 22, 2006 - *Wild hysterical internet rumors again! Have you heard these rumors of Hatsumi Sensei no longer being my sensei? We've heard nothing from Hatsumi Sensei himself of course, but since several people are trying their best to promote these rumors I should address them here. These kinds of rumors pop up on the internet every year or so, and I have always found it better to ignore them publicly and allow folks to discover the truth themselves in time. But these current rumors are so virulent that it seems appropriate to acknowledge them here. Just weeks ago, Rumiko and I had a delightful time training and speaking with Hatsumi Sensei in Japan. Hatsumi Sensei will always be "my sensei" and as always I accord him my highest respect and gratitude for all he has shared with me. I have written to him to ask what he would like us to say at this point.
> I will report back on this blog immediately as soon as we hear from Hatsumi Sensei, so do not bother to e-mail or phone the Dayton Hombu office - nothing more we can tell you for now. Meanwhile, use this time of confusion to re-dedicate your practice to the highest of ideals. You know why you are training. You know what your goals are. You know what your greatest challenges are. Train diligently and sincerely so that by the end of each day, you are a little closer to being the _tatsujin_ "person of actualized perfection" that you strive to become. Do not allow negative people to distract you. Jealous ones may plot to demean your hard-earned success. Fearful ones may scheme to avoid your intimidating skill. But you persevere nonetheless. _Nin-po Ik-kan_ is the way you must live - embodying "consistent warrior training" no matter what obstacles come along that day.


 
(http://www.skhquest.com/Articles/WordsFromAnShu.aspx)


So we are to believe that the Bujinkan Hombu Administrator is abusing his position and misusing Soke's name to post "virulent" rumors about SKH. Just amazing.


----------



## Koinu (May 22, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> So we are to believe that the Bujinkan Hombu Administrator is abusing his position and misusing Soke's name to post "virulent" rumors about SKH. Just amazing.



Funny how these people and their supporters who claim to be so modern in their approach to training seem to always fall back on the very old Roman tactic of killing the messenger kills the message.


----------



## Rich Parsons (May 22, 2006)

Koinu said:
			
		

> Funny how these people and their supporters who claim to be so modern in their approach to training seem to always fall back on the very old Roman tactic of killing the messenger kills the message.



The problem is not that one uses this tactic but they think they have invented this tactic.


----------



## Don Roley (May 23, 2006)

I am just personally sick of the whole thing. I do not want to contribute to the ruckus on the internet, but some of the stuff I just can't sit still while I see it go on.

I see that a Toshindo home study member that was banned from here has joined Phil's web site to talk about how Hayes had no knowledge of this coming. If even one tenth of the stuff I have heard here in Japan is true, I can't see how he could not have known. Dale was trying to let him know 17 years ago and he just kept presenting the same story to the world.

Now people are attacking Hatsumi for making this public gesture. After all the problems with people being led to believe that Hayes was doing things like use the Kukishinden name on his certificates, a public gesture that we should not believe this was cool seems to be the least I would do if I were in that position. And Hayes not only seems to be supporting the attackers, but going after the honbu administrator as Dale points out. 

I think that the best thing would be if Hayes just made an announcement that he was not going to use anything Bujinkan related in his advertisements of comments and make a clean break. He goes his way, the Bujinkan goes its way and we try to just avoid any bad publicity between us. But I do not think that is going to happen based on the latest post from Hayes' blog shows.

But, on the other hand, I do not think that we should be making a big fuss over things like this. I think the ball is in Hayes's court and he has the chance to do the right thing. If he takes it, and the announcement goes poof, then there would be a lot more clarity and a lot less tension.


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## lalom (May 23, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Wow. Apparently it's still just "wild hysterical internet rumors" until Soke makes the effort to reach out to An-shu and personally break the news to him. He's revised the May 19 message (which is no longer up) but has retained part of it, added new material, and dated it with today's date:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
C'mon gang,  can't we move on now?  Soke has asked us to drop it all and not discuss it anymore.  Why are we still at this?


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## bydand (May 23, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I am just personally sick of the whole thing. I do not want to contribute to the ruckus on the internet, but some of the stuff I just can't sit still while I see it go on.



I couldn't agree more with you!




			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I see that a Toshindo home study member that was banned from here has joined Phil's web site to talk about how Hayes had no knowledge of this coming. If even one tenth of the stuff I have heard here in Japan is true, I can't see how he could not have known. Dale was trying to let him know 17 years ago and he just kept presenting the same story to the world.




As a student that started in the Bujinkan and whose school shifted to To-Shin-Do, *I* could see this coming long ago.  I am just kind of suprised it took this long.  My hat is off to Hatsumi Sensei for being such a patient man and letting it slide for so long, I know I couldn't have  "turned the other cheek" for such a long time.  That is why I hold him such high esteem and wish I could show half as much wisdom and understanding as Hatsumi Sensei.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> He goes his way, the Bujinkan goes its way and we try to just avoid any bad publicity between us.



I wish it would happen like this, but don't forsee it.  There has been so much Bujinkin -vs- To-Shin-Do discussion and bickering that I fear it will continue on, but at an accelerated pace for the near future.  It just goes and makes BOTH "sides" look bad and turns the *Arts* I personally love into the laughing stocks of the MA world.  "Look at them, they come from the same roots and can't agree to disagree" I can read it now.  Just so there is zero debate over where I train: To-Shin-Do, because it is the only school within 6 hours of where I live and it is MUCH better than the others offered in my area (hodge-podge Partial Arts that are _almost_ as effective as throwing oatmeal at your adversary.)  I do know a Bujinkan instructor in the state and plan on trying to get back to some training through him also.


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## Deaf (May 23, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But, on the other hand, I do not think that we should be making a big fuss over things like this. I think the ball is in Hayes's court and he has the chance to do the right thing. If he takes it, and the announcement goes poof, then there would be a lot more clarity and a lot less tension.



Well considering he didn't do the "right" thing for all this time.  I seriously doubt he will.  He makes too much $$ from the use of his "Bujinkan" roots!


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 23, 2006)

wow.  And all I was interested in was how did the trip go.


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## Cryozombie (May 30, 2006)

So, if what I read is true, Mr. Hayes is denying this is happening, only claiming that its an internet rumor started by people who were jealous of him?

Hmm.

Ok, So, is there anyone on here who witnessed this?  Or is it just a rumor?


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## Dale Seago (May 30, 2006)

Well, lessee. . .

15th dan Phil Legare witnessed it at Hombu on May 14, heard Soke's explanation translated in near-real time by George Ohashi, Soke's Hombu Administrator, and announced it on his site on May 16.

The Hombu Administrator confirmed it a few days later in an announcement on his site (May 20).

So for SKH to still, as of today on his own blog, be calling it a "rumor" seems a little disingenuous at best.


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## lalom (May 30, 2006)

So, although Dale Seago has so eloquently documented all this that has transpired on this issue... Techno, no, no one here has witnessed this personally.  It'll be interesting to see how this all finishes up.  Apparently, Mr. Hayes has written Hatsumi sensei to find out personally from him his status since Soke's symbolic public gesture of things so private...


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## Dale Seago (May 31, 2006)

As far as the "witnessed" part goes, one of my own students was training in the Hombu class during which SKH's name board was taken down, and he mentioned it to me on his return. However, he doesn't post on Internet forums. . .


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## saru1968 (May 31, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> So, although Dale Seago has so eloquently documented all this that has transpired on this issue... Techno, no, no one here has witnessed this personally. It'll be interesting to see how this all finishes up. Apparently, Mr. Hayes has written Hatsumi sensei to find out personally from him his status since Soke's symbolic public gesture of things so private...


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## Kreth (May 31, 2006)

Let's keep it civil, gentlemen...


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## Cryozombie (May 31, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> So, although Dale Seago has so eloquently documented all this that has transpired on this issue... Techno, no, no one here has witnessed this personally. It'll be interesting to see how this all finishes up. Apparently, Mr. Hayes has written Hatsumi sensei to find out personally from him his status since Soke's symbolic public gesture of things so private...


 
Honestly... I went over and read what Mr. Hayes had to say about things, and I read what Mr. Ohashi wrote, and all I can say is wow.

Mr Hayes _seems_ to have said on his own... uh, blog, I guess it is, that Hatsumi no longer teaches, only performs, and that he is has changed the art from the way things are done so it can actually be useful.

If *I* were Someones instructor, I would take a dim view of that being said of me as well... plus given Mr. Ohashi's status as Hombu administrator, I have no reason to doubt him.

Thanks for your responses guys, I didnt mean to dig this all up, I was just looking for clarification.


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## Don Roley (May 31, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> So, although Dale Seago has so eloquently documented all this that has transpired on this issue... Techno, no, no one here has witnessed this personally.



Anyone who wants to can see for themselves that the tablet is gone. It has been gone for a few weeks and has not been replaced. It is hard to believe at this point that Hatsumi is unaware of it being gone and the trouble on the internet that has gone on and yet he has not ordered it replaced. I know several people that were there, including the guy who was ordered by Hatsumi to take it down.

I don't think you can say that there is a lack of evidence unless you really, really don't want to accept reality. I have seen a few good people attacked over this matter for merely passing along the story as they were asked to. It sickens me to see that type of thing go on. To not like a fact and to try to discredit the messenger is not what I would call a good personality trait.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 31, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> that Hatsumi no longer teaches, only performs,



I would say, he's walking around, and interesting things happen around him while he's doing it.


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## Stealth (May 31, 2006)

My brain Hurts after all of this... 

I used to train with the Tampa Bujinkan Shibu... I now train at a Quest Center under Mark Russo...  I will say that Toshindo is more gimmicky, but by using the name Toshindo it helps to sell the product as self defense, and not an "assassin" art as many perceive Ninjutsu.  Eh, I train where I can to get Ninjutsu training, it just so happens that the closest place is toshindo... Does that mean that I would not be accepted as a student in the Bujinkan?  I don't have much of an option on where to train, and feel it insulting to think that I would no longer be bujinkan due to nowhere to train locally anymore except a Quest center...


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## Dale Seago (Jun 1, 2006)

Stealth said:
			
		

> Eh, I train where I can to get Ninjutsu training, it just so happens that the closest place is toshindo... Does that mean that I would not be accepted as a student in the Bujinkan?



Yep, pretty much.

Toshindo is not, and never was, Bujinkan training as such.

On the other hand, a number of Toshindo instructors are separately ranked in the Bujinkan as well, and some of them (gasp!) even go and train periodically in Japan. I could be mistaken, but I think Mark Russo is also a Bujinkan shidoshi -- and just BTW, I've never heard anything bad about him.

Bottom line, though: You're only likely to be accepted as a student in the Bujinkan if you're training under a _currently recognized_ Bujinkan instructor and have a current-year Bujinkan membership card from the Bujinkan hombu dojo in Japan.


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## Stealth (Jun 1, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Yep, pretty much.
> 
> Toshindo is not, and never was, Bujinkan training as such.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, Mark Russo is a Bujinkan Shidoshi... But he teaches Toshindo.  So would that make him no longer a Bujinkan Shidoshi?

Here is a funny question....  Since I did train in Bujinkan, and now train in Toshindo,   I would never be allowed back into the Bujinkan since I started training in Toshindo???  What if I just ordered one of Van Donk's videos and tested up to my level?  Would I then be again a member of the Bujinkan if I got my I.D. card?  It all seems kind of silly to me.  I understand that they are different in a sense, but just because I now train in one style of the art I should be banned from another?

This is in regards to the statements made about how Bujinkan Students are banned form learning Toshindo.


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## lalom (Jun 1, 2006)

Stealth, I would imagine that one could still potentially ranked in both arts - either To-Shin Do or Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.  Of course them being separate arts, one would have to demonstrate whatever knowledge or technique is required for the requested kyu level by whatever teacher you are under.  This would be the same for any other art for that matter.

About one being banned from training in either art?  I don't think that is the case.  Whoever said it must be wrong.


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## Stealth (Jun 1, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> About one being banned from training in either art? I don't think that is the case. Whoever said it must be wrong.


 
It didn't sound right... I'd have to try and find the post/link...


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## Tengu6 (Jun 1, 2006)

Stealth said:
			
		

> Yes, Mark Russo is a Bujinkan Shidoshi... But he teaches Toshindo. So would that make him no longer a Bujinkan Shidoshi?


 
If he is no longer actively training under a Shihan in the Bujinkan then he is a Godan, not a Shidoshi. Licenses for teaching need to be renewed annually. It is possible that he has been sending in his fee and renewing but if he is not actively training in the Bujinkan then it is a bit misleading.




			
				Stealth said:
			
		

> Here is a funny question.... Since I did train in Bujinkan, and now train in Toshindo, I would never be allowed back into the Bujinkan since I started training in Toshindo???


Of course you would be allowed back in, but to do both would be poor etiquette IMO.




			
				Stealth said:
			
		

> What if I just ordered one of Van Donk's videos and tested up to my level? Would I then be again a member of the Bujinkan if I got my I.D. card?


I doubt RVD would let someone "test to their level", I think you would have to complete his program, after all, it is about business, but that's a whole other issue.



			
				Stealth said:
			
		

> It all seems kind of silly to me. I understand that they are different in a sense, but just because I now train in one style of the art I should be banned from another?


Again, etiquette.



			
				lalom said:
			
		

> Stealth, I would imagine that one could still potentially ranked in both arts - either To-Shin Do or Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Of course them being separate arts, one would have to demonstrate whatever knowledge or technique is required for the requested kyu level by whatever teacher you are under. This would be the same for any other art for that matter.





			
				lalom said:
			
		

> About one being banned from training in either art? I don't think that is the case. Whoever said it must be wrong.


 
Guys, it is kinda like this, imagine you had a friend that says rude things about your wife, and/or just blatantly does things that disrespect her. Now, hanging out with this friend would also be disrespectful to your wife. It is a lot like that. 

Now training with people that don&#8217;t have a history like that with Hatsumi sensei would not be an issue, but training in To Shin Do would be a slap in the face to Soke. You need to make a choice, simple as that.

Just depends where your loyalty is. No one said you had to train in either art. And before you say no one can tell you who or who not to train with read this (a more refined version appears in the current issue of Bujinmag www.bujinmag.com):

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779796&postcount=164

And:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779344&postcount=158

Markk Bush


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## Cryozombie (Jun 1, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> Just depends where your loyalty is. No one said you had to train in either art. And before you say no one can tell you who or who not to train with read this (a more refined version appears in the current issue of Bujinmag www.bujinmag.com):
> 
> http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=779796&postcount=164
> 
> ...



Ah, I think snake made an excellent point there.


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## lalom (Jun 2, 2006)

And for those who don't care about the childish politics and who is upset with whom; who disrespected whom?  What about the guy who just loves the art and appreciates learning dynamics from both organizations?  c'mon...

I agree to disagree.  What Mr. Hayes has against Soke (he's never said anything to me or anything in print) OR what Soke has against Mr. Hayes is their personal issue.  Nobody has disrespected anyone's wife here. I've never personally heard either side disrespect each other.  It's their immature children that continue to berade each others father with, "my dad is stronger than your dad" comments.  What they have between each other as men and teachers of their perspective art, I leave it between them and attempt to continue to progress in my life journey of Budo.


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## saru1968 (Jun 2, 2006)

You surely can't be comparing SKH as the same level of Soke as per your 'Father analogy'

SKH was a student or moreso should have been a student like anyone else.

And not paying Shidoshi-Kai memberships is not childish politics.

But how about just leaving the thread to die unless you have something productive to add.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 2, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> If he is no longer actively training under a Shihan in the Bujinkan then he is a Godan, not a Shidoshi. Licenses for teaching need to be renewed annually. It is possible that he has been sending in his fee and renewing but if he is not actively training in the Bujinkan then it is a bit misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, pretty much how it looks from where I sit too,  Markk.


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## lalom (Jun 3, 2006)

saru1968 said:
			
		

> You surely can't be comparing SKH as the same level of Soke as per your 'Father analogy'


 
I sure am.  Don't like the analogy?  Tough.  This is how I see it.  You can disagree if you desire.



			
				saru1968 said:
			
		

> But how about just leaving the thread to die unless you have something productive to add.


 
Feel better?  I still see you contributing!  I am so enamored with your productive responses!


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## Don Roley (Jun 3, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> What Mr. Hayes has against Soke (he's never said anything to me or anything in print) OR what Soke has against Mr. Hayes is their personal issue.



The fact that Hayes is not recognized as a teacher of Bujinkan is far from a personal issue between the two. It is something that people coming into the art must know if they are to make an informed choice.

Hayes is out in the eyes of Hatsumi. If you like Hayes, then that should not be a problem. If you are searching for what Hatsumi teachers, then you had best know that you will not get it from Hayes.

I prefer Hatsumi myself. I do not think Hayes is anywhere near his level. Strange of me to believe that, don't you think? :wink1:


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## eyebeams (Jun 3, 2006)

I'd still like to know if Hayes has any licenses and if so, which ones at which level.


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## lalom (Jun 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Hayes is out in the eyes of Hatsumi. If you like Hayes, then that should not be a problem. If you are searching for what Hatsumi teachers, then you had best know that you will not get it from Hayes.


 
Don, I agree with you on this one.  My point in this is this: Hayes and Hatsumi are two different men with two different arts.  Whether they are equal or not cannot be disputed.   Mr. Hayes isn't better than Hatusmi and Hatsumi isn't better than Hayes.  They are each heads of their own perspective organizations of which are distinct and separate.  Bujinkan folks need to stop trying to compare the two arts with each other as to which one is right or not, better nor not.  To-Shin Do people must do the same.  Again, they are two different arts.  

You prefer Hatsumi.  Others prefer Hayes.  Reasons for that are your own reasons.  That is what prompted me to refer to those things as people trying to compare fathers in my earlier thread to which Saru1968 became agitated.  What I mean by fathers is their headship in their organizations.  Mr. Hayes doesn't know better then Soke in BBT.  Soke doesn't know better than Hayes in To-Shin Do (boy, how many are gonna get upset with that one?).  They are both "the source" for their perspective arts whether anyone likes the tone of that or not.

One question that is raised for me also is what about the guy who doesn't care about how all this present situation transpired in there being a perverbial line in the sand between BBT and TSD?  Can he still be a part of both organizations?  Soke hasn't banned anyone from training in another art has he?  Can a Jinenkan or Genbukan train in the Bujinkan as well?  There are those that don't care of the politics and just enjoy taijutsu and can unbaisedly assimilate teachings from the x-kan and To-Shin Do?  Is this a problem to which Soke has directly prohibited?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 3, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Tough. This is how I see it.



Yeah, me too. That's why they call Hayes the father of American ninjutsu, right? He's just like a father - initially, he knows and is capable of everything, then you get a little older and realize that this guy doesn't know jack about anything. How's that for an analogy to take a slice at my rep?



			
				lalom said:
			
		

> Hatsumi isn't better than Hayes


 
Yes. He. Is.



			
				lalom said:
			
		

> There are those that don't care of the politics and just enjoy taijutsu and can unbaisedly assimilate teachings from the x-kan and To-Shin Do? Is this a problem to which Soke has directly prohibited?


 
Yes, and if you don't see it, it's because you don't want to. Either that, or your ego's writing checks your footwork can't cash. Or both.


----------



## lalom (Jun 3, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Yeah, me too. That's why they call Hayes the father of American ninjutsu, right? He's just like a father - initially, he knows and is capable of everything, then you get a little older and realize that this guy doesn't know jack about anything. How's that for an analogy to take a slice at my rep?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
My point exactly... Some people can't help themselves I guess.


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## Dale Seago (Jun 3, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> One question that is raised for me also is what about the guy who doesn't care about how all this present situation transpired in there being a perverbial line in the sand between BBT and TSD? Can he still be a part of both organizations?



On paper, at least: Probably, though not ethically.



> Soke hasn't banned anyone from training in another art has he?



Yes: Genbukan & Jinenkan. He also stated a year or two ago that those training with SKH were "not welcome in the Bujinkan".



> Can a Jinenkan or Genbukan train in the Bujinkan as well?



No, they can't. Not only does Hatsumi sensei prohibit this, but so do the heads of the Genbukan & Jinenkan as I recall.



> There are those that don't care of the politics and just enjoy taijutsu and can unbaisedly assimilate teachings from the x-kan and To-Shin Do? Is this a problem to which Soke has directly prohibited?



Yes he has, and it is not merely a matter of "politics". If what Hatsumi sensei received and is transmitting from Takamatsu sensei were nothing more than a set of physical techniques, then it would make little difference whether you learned them from Hatsumi, Tanemura, Manaka, or Hayes. Unfortunately, that looks like the level of experience and martial maturity from which you're viewing this.

_Shiigata ga nai_. . .


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 3, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Mr. Hayes isn't better than Hatusmi and Hatsumi isn't better than Hayes.



If we are talking about ninjutsu, you could not be more wrong.

Maybe Hayes has more experience with firearms than Hatsumi since pistols are banned in Japan. Only the police and the criminals have them. And maybe Hayes has a better understanding of legal situations in America in regards to self defense. I have not seen anything that indicates that, but it might be the case.

But if we are talking about things like _kenjutsu, Shinden fudo ryu dakentaijutsu, bojutsu, Togakure ryu ninpo_ and _shurikenjutsu_ then there is no way you can make the case that Hayes knows as much about the subject as Hatsumi.


----------



## lalom (Jun 3, 2006)

What I have referred to as to each man not being better than the other is in regards to their perspective organizations and art.  Soke obviously knows more about BBT than anyone and is the source.  Hayes is more knowledgeable about TSD and is the source for it.

Agree or don't agree.  That's okay too.


----------



## lalom (Jun 3, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Yes he has, and it is not merely a matter of "politics".


 
Of course everyone can expect you to say this...   

As Don Roley put it, basically we'll keep going round n-round about this... Those that seek Mr. Hayes' teachings will and those that seek to learn Hatsumi's will as well.

We should all just join Jinenkan and be done with this whole argument!


----------



## MrFunnieman (Jun 4, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> We should all just join Jinenkan and be done with this whole argument!


 
 I second that motion.

Stage direction:
MrFunnieman slips quietly back to the Aikido forum, where Steven Seagal's technique and ethics are debated.


----------



## Dale Seago (Jun 4, 2006)

lalom said:
			
		

> Of course everyone can expect you to say this...



No, not everyone -- just those who are still "babies" in these arts.

Although in fairness, I should point out that I've only been involved in the Bujinkan for a bit over 22 years at this point. (I'm not even going to get into issues regarding rank, although like SKH, I'm never going to get any more from Hatsumi sensei. . .but for different reasons than SKH.)

As compared to . . .I'm sorry, how long did you say you've been training under Hatsumi sensei and/or _recognized teachers under his guidance_?


----------



## Don Roley (Jun 4, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> As compared to . . .I'm sorry, how long did you say you've been training under Hatsumi sensei and/or _recognized teachers under his guidance_?



Fair question. To make comparisons, you would really want to listen to people who have trained under both people.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Fair question. To make comparisons, you would really want to listen to people who have trained under both people.


 
I train occasionally on tuesdays and thirsdays with someone who has since 1975.


----------



## Stealth (Jun 4, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> Of course you would be allowed back in, but to do both would be poor etiquette IMO.


 
That was my only concern...  Since I do not know of any Bujinkan Dojos around here, Toshindo is my only choice.  If I had the opportunity I would still be training with the Bujinkan.


----------



## lalom (Jun 4, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> No, not everyone -- just those who are still "babies" in these arts.
> 
> Although in fairness, I should point out that I've only been involved in the Bujinkan for a bit over 22 years at this point. (I'm not even going to get into issues regarding rank, although like SKH, I'm never going to get any more from Hatsumi sensei. . .but for different reasons than SKH.)
> 
> As compared to . . .I'm sorry, how long did you say you've been training under Hatsumi sensei and/or _recognized teachers under his guidance_?


 
Okay here we go.  Yeah, Yeah, "I too have been told that my taijutsu's  better than SKH's."  We've heard it before Dale.  Please... "I'm not going to get into issues regarding rank..." whatever!  You're the same as the rest of em'!  

Here's about the time I say I'm done with this thread.  Now the thread has changed to how we're NOT comparing our ranks.  Oh my gosh!  I'm done with this thread.  Guess I'll go hang out with MrFunnieman in Steven Seagal's forum!


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## Dale Seago (Jun 4, 2006)

I basically was just wondering if you'd gotten through puberty yet. You've answered that to my satisfaction, so thank you.

In any case, here's another interesting post. Whatever one thinks about RVD using the term "Master" or his misspelling of the Hombu Administrator's name, this looks pretty definitive:



> Here is the follow-up on what Soke Hatsumi and the Bujinkan Hombu dojo officially state regarding Stephen Hayes and the ranking issue.
> 
> Since the question was one that only the Hombu Dojo could answer I contacted Soke Hatsumi through George Osashi (the Bujinkan Hombu Dojo administrator) providing him with the proper web-links and copies of the Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu, Togakure and other Toshindo Ryu diplomas that Mr. Hayes is issuing. I told him, Many students are asking us about Mr. Hayes issuing specific ryu related certification diplomas such as the Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu as shown below. As a Senior Bujinkan member it is my understanding that this is a violation of Bujinkan rules. Please clarify if Mr. Hayes has been given the authority to issue these diploma licenses and ask if Soke Hatsumi now supports us in issuing diploma licenses?
> 
> ...


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## Bujin (Jun 5, 2006)

FYI, This can be read on the Quest Centers web page:


> *I keep finding internet rumors that Stephen K. Hayes is no longer in the Bujinkan... does not teach Bujinkan Kihon Happo methods...even that Hatsumi Sensei took his name off the Noda Dojo wall... *
> 
> Those rumors have popped up now and then for decades. A few insecure individuals think it would be easier to make a name for themselves if An-shu's presence, vision, skill, and charisma were not so far above them, so they float out rumors that Hatsumi Sensei "fired him", or that An-shu does not teach historical basics, or "doesn't train enough", or other absurd and silly falsehoods. These individuals who jealously envy An-shu's accomplishments are the sad but inevitable underbelly of the martial arts world. Isn't it disappointing how hard these small hearts work to discredit the risks taken and noble work done by An-shu to open up and make available to Western world students the name and work of Masaaki Hatsumi? Actually, An-shu Stephen K. Hayes' Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu DVD is one of the best possible references for the standard Bujinkan fundamentals.


 
Best regards /

Bujin


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## saru1968 (Jun 5, 2006)

I'm sorry that guy is just delusional and it seems to be the same delusion that affects some of his students...yet on the other hand we have GArthur on Map(uk Toshindo) who accepts it actually happened.

Oh, well..


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## Kreth (Jun 5, 2006)

This thread has run its course, and devolved into sniping, so it has been closed. Do NOT start another thread on the SKH issue.


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