# Siu Nim Tao , xio niàn tóu, Siu Lim Tao - What's it all about



## Xue Sheng (Feb 13, 2012)

There was another thread in this section that frankly was not worth the powder to blow it up&#8230; so I won&#8217;t mention it or link it&#8230; but it got me thinking about Sil Lim Tao.

As far as Wing Chun goes the only form I know is Siu Nim Tao so if I pull out my background in other CMA styles I have to honestly admit I really don&#8217;t think Siu Nim Tao covers a whole lot as it applies to self Defense and fighting. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I do think if you have a good understanding of it you can defend yourself against some attacks but I do not see where Siu Nim Tao does much for protecting the lower body nor does it give you any training in movement and it is limited in upper body defense, although it does give you a pretty good idea of how to do that, if trained right. But if you are only doing Siu Nim Tao, IMO, the first time you get hit you are in for a shock. Meaning if you have never done a Bong Sau/Lop Sau Drill or any other type of drill it is going to hurt when someone actually hits you and it will shock you which will possibly lead to hesitation&#8230;and you all see where I&#8217;m going there. And I got to be honest here; I really think a lot of the meat is in the drills as it applies to fighting and external training. But then I only know Sil Lim Tao so what the hell do I know. That and I think they are pretty cool :EG: 

However I do see internal training in Siu Nim Tao that is pretty good and I see that translating into body unity, meaning you can get the power form the root to the fist rather effectively and efficiently after you have trained Sil Lim tao for a while&#8230;if trained correctly. Now I am MORE than willing to admit I may have missed the whole point of Siu Nim Tao here and I will also admit it is really hard to look at Siu Nim Tao and not look at it through Xingyi/Taiji colored glasses so I really want to hear form those that know better than I, which means just about any of the regulars in this section :asian: . 


What is Siu Nim Tao about, what is it supposed to teach you?


And while I&#8217;m here and know nothing about the other 2 forms that make up my flavor of Wing Chun


 What is Chum Kio about, what is it supposed to teach you?


 What is Bio Tzu about, what is it supposed to teach you? 


And since the original reason I got into Wing Chun was the Muk Yan Jong&#8230; which I have yet to train... and since I am am looking for answers to questions that people genearally write books about


 What is the Muk Yan Jong supposed to train you?


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## Eric_H (Feb 13, 2012)

Hey Xue,

Again, all answers are going to be lineage specific 

For Hung Fa Yi folks, Siu Nim Tao the form is designed to teach you the structural "hardware" supported by the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun formula. It has some internal benefit, but the hardware is what it's primarily for. It is paired with Siu Lein Tao drilling, which teaches you the "software" (concept/principle) which shows you when/where to apply the hardware. Siu Nim Tao level of training shows you how to fight while holding your ground, going with the idea of "if it is not necessary to move, you do not move." We achieve this by "maxing out our credit" on the centerline and saam sing jong (three star structure) first before considering moving.

Our Chum Kiu teaches us how to go out and seek the bridge. Biu Gee is suppossed to be about Energy, but I don't know much about either one yet. Opposite to the Yip Man lines, Our Siu Nim tao is the biggest/most advanced/etc where as for most YM folks Biu Gee is considered more advanced/etc.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 13, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Hey Xue,
> 
> Again, all answers are going to be lineage specific



I figured they would be the case and that is great, I am interested in hearing about the views of all lineages, not just the one I dabble in

I had not thought about Siu Nim Tao as a form to teach you to stand your ground in a fight but I do honestly see that it can
Thanks


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## Vajramusti (Feb 13, 2012)

A full discussion of sil lim tao would take a long time  and is beyond the scope of a routine forum/thread response.
The slt is the fundamental form- it helps develop some key concepts, motions, control; of directions, training the elbow, 
understanding gates/zones, directions, control, angles, lines, stability of structure that  later with chum kiu and chi sao is 
infused with considerable ,mobility without sacrificing structure, coordinating joints in the body, ,minimizing muscle tension, 
training each hand, training both hands, understanding self defense zones in the front-sides and back, controlling the breath and the mind.

Learning the sequence is just a start. Discovery of meanings and applications takes guidance, time,many forms chi sao. man sao two person timing work, 
gor sao. lat sao amd more. Withouta deep understanding of slt and development of the fundamnetals-techmiques will collapse.

joy chaudhuri


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## yak sao (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm of the mind set that SNT alone will not make you a good WC man, but without SNT you will never be a good WC man.

I wrote an essay on this very thing a while back...here it is if interested.

_Siu Nim Tao
_Even though Siu Nim Tao is WTs first form, dont make the mistake of thinking of it as a basic form that you get down and then move on to the next one. Siu Nim Tao is to be an ongoing endeavor- an archeological dig where you are continuously discovering new things. Even as you move on to Chum Kiu and Biu Tze, you will continue to find insights into the system from diligent practice of this form. The deeper your understanding of Siu Nim Tao, the better you will get at WT. The day you stop practicing Siu Nim Tao is the day your WT skills will start to diminish.
Siu Nim Tao, or _Little Idea, _is a treasure chest for the WT practitioner. The name itself gives a clue to the mental attitude the WT man should have: focus on the task at hand. Not the next move, not what happened at work today, simply the movement you are doing at that particular moment in time. This mental training has very real fighting applications. When confronted with a live opponent, you cant let your mind wander: _Oh no! He looks toughwhat if he knows how to box?...could be a wrestler.oh crap! What if he gets me on the ground? I could get hurt! I cant get hurt, I have to go to work tomorrowif I miss one more day at work, I could lose my job and then well lose the house._The next thing you know, you are all tense and anticipating your opponents moves, and suddenly you are not nearly as effective as you would have been if you had simply focused on the task at hand, relaxed and breathed. Kind of sounds like Siu Nim Tao doesnt it?
Siu Nim Tao, along with mental focus, relaxation and proper breathing, teaches proper structure, body unity, elbow force, balance, strengthens the legs, roots the stance, defines the centerline, and develops functional strength and flexibility in the upper body. And thats just the short list.Siu Nim Tao is all about function. Nothing is there for the sake of art. Look at something as simple as the huen sau movement. As WT is primarily a striking art, it is important for the wrist to be flexible and the forearms strong, otherwise, every time we hit something or someone, we would injure our wrists. Siu Nim Tao addresses this, by repeating huen sau numerous times throughout the form.So in essence, the first opponent you encounter in WT is yourself : your own bad habits, weak body, negative thinking, poor posture, tense muscles and improper breathing . As you move your body through the various positions, you should be thinking: _are my shoulders relaxed, is my back straight, am I sinking properly, is the force coming from my elbow.? _In time, these things fade into the background and start to become second nature. 
Siu Nim Tao is a blend of internal and external exercise; of soft and hard; Yin and Yang. It is a perfect balance. Everything in WT is a continuous cycle, there is no first and last. Just as the name Wing Tsun implies, it is springtime, always cycling, always being renewed. To reach the highest levels of WT, the founders cleverly put the answer right there in front of us, in the first form. But only the diligent and patient practitioner will ever find it.
· _Do not force progress
_· _The mind is free of distractions and the mood is bright
._· _Look where the hand goes
._· _Power from the bottom of the elbow.
_· _One tan, three fook. Send the elbow forward one millimeter at a time
_· _Push the head against the sky and the feet firmly on the ground.
_· _Head up with horizontal vision
_· _Sinking elbow and drooping shoulders
_· _Containable chest and elevated back
_· _Straighten the waist and suck in the stomach_


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## mook jong man (Feb 13, 2012)

The first form teaches you the stance and is the foundation for learning to kick.
Most of all it teaches you to instinctively attack and defend on the centerline.
The lower Garn Sau will protect the lower body.

There are many very useful movements in there for self defence , anything from arm grab releases , to movements to deflect straight punches , uppercuts and roundhouse punches.

But in application they may not appear exactly as they do in the form , some movements are also hidden in the transitions between other moves such as turning from Tan to Bong.

The Chum Kiu basically teaches to move your body as one unit for maximum power and efficiency , it teaches you to generate power or overcome the opponents power by pivoting the whole body.

You are also learning to apply two force vectors at the one time to overpower the opponent , for example if my arm is on top of yours and I want to cut my arm down to open up the path for striking you can resist by forcing your arm back up.
But if I add a pivot to that cutting down movement you find it hard to resist because now not only is your arm being pressed down but your body is being pulled down and out to the side by the pivot at the same time.

Some people think of the Biu Gee as the recovery form for when something has gone wrong , and there is something to that notion , but I tend to think of it as the form that turbo charges all your techniques , due to the high speed rotation of the body.

In our lineage the upper body is utilized to add extra power to all the techniques unlike the chum Kiu where the waist and upper body are locked together in ours the upper torso will resemble more how a boxer will generate power.
This extra twisting of the upper body is also used to generate power with the pole.

In the wooden dummy form all the principles and concepts worked on in the previous forms are now brought together and honed on the dummy.
Mainly correct positioning and transferring of your body mass into the dummy , not merely smashing the crap out of the dummy arms as fast as you can as is most commonly seen.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2012)

Vajramusti said:


> A full discussion of sil lim tao would take a long time  and is beyond the scope of a routine forum/thread response.
> The slt is the fundamental form- it helps develop some key concepts, motions, control; of directions, training the elbow,
> understanding gates/zones, directions, control, angles, lines, stability of structure that  later with chum kiu and chi sao is
> infused with considerable ,mobility without sacrificing structure, coordinating joints in the body, ,minimizing muscle tension,
> ...



Like I said, I was asking a question about something that people generally write books about.  

But then you go a do a good job of answer the question in a couple of paragraphs 

Great post, thanks :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I'm of the mind set that SNT alone will not make you a good WC man, but without SNT you will never be a good WC man.
> 
> I wrote an essay on this very thing a while back...here it is if interested.
> 
> ...


NahIm not interested :uhyeah:

That was very informative thank you :asian:

And this bit


> Oh no! He looks toughwhat if he knows how to box?...could be a wrestler.oh crap! What if he gets me on the ground? I could get hurt! I cant get hurt, I have to go to work tomorrowif I miss one more day at work, I could lose my job and then well lose the house.



You are forgetting, I was once labeled " "genuine, certifiable MA House O' Pain maniac" on MT by exile :EG: 

Seriously, I understand that bit very well except these days it is likely to go more towards "I can't afford to injure myself again! I HATE crutches and braces! But what the heck, it is another day off from work so.....


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> The first form teaches you the stance and is the foundation for learning to kick.
> Most of all it teaches you to instinctively attack and defend on the centerline.
> The lower Garn Sau will protect the lower body.
> 
> ...



Thanks, also quite informative. :asian:

I have often wondered what the heck people are thinking when the rapid fire punches on a Muk Yan Jong. If I saw power I would understand way but generally what I see is speed at the expense of power.


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## geezer (Feb 14, 2012)

Yak, I'm with you on this. But I gotta say that those sayings you posted are in serious need of better translation. Some are perfectly understandable, and perhaps kind of memorable in a quaint sort of way. But others are almost incomprehesible. My personal favorite (in a negative sense) has to be:



yak sao said:


> · _Containable chest and elevated back_



_Containable chest? _There's got to be a better way to describe the relaxed, slightly concave or sunken chest position we adopt. Even LT must have realized that this one wasn't cutting it, since he devoted a long section in his book on SNT (unsuccesfully) trying to explain it. Honestly, if I hadn't been personally shown by him what he was talking about, I wouldn't have a clue from this!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2012)

geezer said:


> Yak, I'm with you on this. But I gotta say that those sayings you posted are in serious need of better translation. Some are perfectly understandable, and perhaps a bit quaint. But others are almost incomprehesible. My personal favorite (in a negative sense) has to be:
> 
> 
> Containable chest?  There's got to be a better way to describe the relaxed, slightly concave or sunken chest position we adopt. Even LT must have realized that this one wasn't cutting it, since he devoted a long section in his book on SNT (unsuccesfully) trying to explain it. Honestly, if I hadn't been personally shown by him what he was talking about, I wouldn't have a clue from this!



I have to tell you that after years of Taijiquan with a Chinese sifu and sometime in Xingyiquan... I had not even noticed the problem with translation and I actually understood perfectly what he was saying.... Damn ICMA background strikes again


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## Eric_H (Feb 14, 2012)

yak sao said:
			
		

> _· __Straighten the waist and suck in the stomach_



This is one stance wise I would disagree with - for Hung Fa Yi folks we try to push out the lower area of the stomach, it allows the hip to tuck slightly, compressing the tailbone area and helping to vertically align the three dantiens. For us at least, we can't define body centerline without that type of alignment (hence why we don't lean back like some other lineages prefer).

EDIT:
Just thought I should note though, I did enjoy the article/essay, i think it's a great perspective.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2012)

yak sao said:


> · _Do not force progress
> _· _The mind is free of distractions and the mood is bright
> ._· _Look where the hand goes
> ._· _Power from the bottom of the elbow.
> ...



You see this is where my view of things is tinted by my ICMA (Taiji, Xingyi and a dash of Bagua) glasses. This all makes perfect sense to me although I had not made the connection in Wing Chun. I also know there are differences of opinion like here "_Straighten the waist and suck in the stomach_" I have had a sifu teaching me Chen style Taiji that said to do this and Chen Zhenglei in a seminar said not to do this. Basically the differences make it interesting to me. Also you ALWAYS have to take into account translation differences and errors as well when looking at this stuff.


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## yak sao (Feb 14, 2012)

geezer said:


> Yak, I'm with you on this. But I gotta say that those sayings you posted are in serious need of better translation. Some are perfectly understandable, and perhaps kind of memorable in a quaint sort of way. But others are almost incomprehesible. My personal favorite (in a negative sense) has to be:
> 
> 
> 
> _Containable chest? _There's got to be a better way to describe the relaxed, slightly concave or sunken chest position we adopt. Even LT must have realized that this one wasn't cutting it, since he devoted a long section in his book on SNT (unsuccesfully) trying to explain it. Honestly, if I hadn't been personally shown by him what he was talking about, I wouldn't have a clue from this!



I know...when I explain this concept in class,  I always use concave or sunken not containable...I mean seriously, what the hell is that? 
The first time I met LT, he adjusted my shoulders/chest and explained it to me as well. I guess we're just a couple of silly roundeyes.


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## Eric_H (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm sure most of you have already seen this clip make the rounds, here's an example of what our form looks like for those who haven't:

http://www.hungfablog.com/2012/01/29/first-ever-hung-fa-yi-video-published/


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## Eric_H (Feb 14, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I guess we're just a couple of silly roundeyes.



Quoted for truth!


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## naneek (Feb 15, 2012)

very interesting version of SNT thanks for sharing the video Eric


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## Domino (Feb 16, 2012)

Everyones pretty much covered your questions.
No disrespect intended, questions are good and welcomed. You are questioning SLT which shows me you need to practice more often 
Also, you mentioned the wooden dummy, it's great to have a play but would spend your time concentrating on sil lim tau or maybe a little chum kiu for now.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 16, 2012)

Domino said:


> Everyones pretty much covered your questions.
> No disrespect intended, questions are good and welcomed. You are questioning SLT which shows me you need to practice more often
> Also, you mentioned the wooden dummy, it's great to have a play but would spend your time concentrating on sil lim tau or maybe a little chum kiu for now.



No disrespect taken, but of course I need to practice more... as I have already said the only Wing Chun form I know is SLT, I'm a Taijiquan/Xingyiquan guy, have been for years, and at the moment it could be said to only dabble in Wing Chun. And I am not questioning SLT, I am just asking questions about it and this whole post is a result of another post that was pretty much a flame waiting to happen because the OP was a troll. But it got me thinking about some questions.

Also I do not know the wooden dummy form so I do not play with it and I do not know chum kiu or biu jee so focusing on them at this point would be kind of difficult.

Now in the spring I may be going back to train Wing Chun but I am still not 100% sure of that just yet. But if I do, after my sifu straightens out all the bad habit I have likely picked up since the last time I saw him, he already said he would like me to work on chum kiu before I make a decision as to continue training Wing Chun or stopping it altogether. So you are correct sir, I need to focus on chum kiu.but I need to learn it first


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## WCman1976 (Feb 17, 2012)

There are a lot of great answers already, but I wanted to throw in my interpretations and observations.

SIU LIM TAO
Teaches you the basic stance, the centerline, and the most common hand techniques of the system

CHUM KIU
Move your body as one unit, pivoting, footwork, kicks

BIU JEE
Sifu calls this the "desperation form." When you lose the centerline, you have to get it back at all costs. This means resorting to some damaging techniques like elbows and finger jabs.

MOOK JONG
Basically applying all the things you learned in SLT and CK to a tangible object instead of practicing in the air.

*****
Xue,

I agree with you: SLT will not teach you how to fight. However, I would like to point out that NO wing chun form would. They don't mimic the "look" of a fight like when you practice forms in other styles. Wing chun forms are meant to teach you the foundation of the system. Drills with other students (whether against certain attacks, or chi sao) are what prepare you for self-defense.


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## Domino (Feb 17, 2012)

Only? Don't put yourslef down, it's a very important form and good if it got you thinking. For that reason I would carry on training.
And not just Chum kiu... you need to work on both SLT and CK  hehe




Xue Sheng said:


> No disrespect taken, but of course I need to practice more... as I have already said the only Wing Chun form I know is SLT, I'm a Taijiquan/Xingyiquan guy, have been for years, and at the moment it could be said to only dabble in Wing Chun. And I am not questioning SLT, I am just asking questions about it and this whole post is a result of another post that was pretty much a flame waiting to happen because the OP was a troll. But it got me thinking about some questions.
> 
> Also I do not know the wooden dummy form so I do not play with it and I do not know chum kiu or biu jee so focusing on them at this point would be kind of difficult.
> 
> Now in the spring I may be going back to train Wing Chun but I am still not 100% sure of that just yet. But if I do, after my sifu straightens out all the bad habit I have likely picked up since the last time I saw him, he already said he would like me to work on chum kiu before I make a decision as to continue training Wing Chun or stopping it altogether. So you are correct sir, I need to focus on chum kiu.but I need to learn it first


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2012)

WCman1976 said:


> I agree with you: SLT will not teach you how to fight. However, I would like to point out that NO wing chun form would. They don't mimic the "look" of a fight like when you practice forms in other styles. Wing chun forms are meant to teach you the foundation of the system. Drills with other students (whether against certain attacks, or chi sao) are what prepare you for self-defense.



Agreed, I don't know of any form in any style I have ever trained that teaches you how to fight, although I do feel Xingyiquan forms tend to be real close and a bit more direct about it, but all forms really do is teach you foundations, heck look at most taiji forms. It is the drills and tuishou and sparing thet gets you to the fighting bits, even in Xingyiquan


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## yak sao (Feb 17, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Agreed, I don't know of any form in any style I have ever trained that teaches you how to fight, although I do feel Xingyiquan forms tend to be real close and a bit more direct about it, but all forms really do is teach you foundations, heck look at most taiji forms. It is the drills and tuishou and sparing thet gets you to the fighting bits, even in Xingyiquan



I would really encourage you to pursue WC. Until you get to the chi sau, you have not truly seen WC. And I've read enough of your posts to know that you would be a chi sau kind of guy.
I can't speak for all schools, but in our lineage, it is SNT, then you do a bit of dan chi sau as you learn the CK. Then after CK comes the chi sau....and then you really see WC open up and you begin to see its possibilities.......Go for it, I'm telling you!


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## Siunimtao (Feb 20, 2012)

This article might bee of some Guidence,
http://wcats.com/WCLessons/SLT/SiuLimTaoIntro.php


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## simplewc101 (Mar 5, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> As far as Wing Chun goes the only form I know is Siu Nim Tao so if I pull out my background in other CMA styles I have to honestly admit I really dont think Siu Nim Tao covers a whole lot as it applies to self Defense and fighting.
> Dont get me wrong, I do think if you have a good understanding of it you can defend yourself against some attacks but I do not see where Siu Nim Tao does much for protecting the lower body nor does it give you any training in movement and it is limited in upper body defense, although it does give you a pretty good idea of how to do that, if trained right. But if you are only doing Siu Nim Tao, IMO, the first time you get hit you are in for a shock. Meaning if you have never done a Bong Sau/Lop Sau Drill or any other type of drill it is going to hurt when someone actually hits you and it will shock you which will possibly lead to hesitationand you all see where Im going there. And I got to be honest here; I really think a lot of the meat is in the drills as it applies to fighting and external training. But then I only know Sil Lim Tao so what the hell do I know. That and I think they are pretty cool :EG:
> 
> 
> ...



You definitely have a lot of good answers on here already, but I'll add a few cents for what its worth. 
I'm YM/Ip ching lineage fyi
To answer some questions you pose in your original post, I highly doubt anyone here will tell you that SLT form is what you need for self defense.. As you suggest and others have reinforced, the self defense is in the drills. You can have the most perfect tan sao from the form, but be clueless as how to use it.
"I do think if you have a good understanding of it you can defend  yourself against some attacks but I do not see where Siu Nim Tao does  much for protecting the lower body"
To this statement^ -correct, SLT doesn't cover protecting your lower body (below belt), you learn that in CK.
"nor does it give you any training in movement and it is limited in upper body defense"
Correct again, it does not teach movement.. you learn that in CK. granted, if you're SLT level and that's all you know and you see some older guys doing CK, I'm sure you can figure out that in a fight, the situation might call for you to move your feet.
"it is going to hurt when someone actually hits you and it will shock  you which will possibly lead to hesitationand you all see where Im  going there." This statement has more to do with the fighting aptitude of the practitioner more so than it has to do with SLT.. even if you don't know any martial art/system, if you are prepared to fight the attacker and are prepared to throw fists with the guy, then I think you'll be expecting to be hit once or twice and be able to shrug it off... If you are not sure/scared/nervous/whatever from the beginning this is what will lead to hesitation from being hit.

"What is Siu Nim Tao about, what is it supposed to teach you?"
"What is Chum Kio about, what is it supposed to teach you?"
My answers are contained within several other members answers

"What is Bio Tzu about, what is it supposed to teach you?"
First rule of Bui Tze is you do not talk about Bui Tze! lol:erg:

"What is the Muk Yan Jong supposed to train you?"
I think that when doing the forms, sometimes one may focus so much on the movement of the body that an opponent is an afterthought. Mook Yang Jong has been put in the system to remember to think about the opponent, to refine your movements/hands, and to put a little more perspective to your WC knowledge. Plus it teaches you new things in the sections.


You should get back into WC!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2012)

simplewc101 said:


> You should get back into WC!



I am hearing this form a lot of people lately, including my last Wing Chun sifu and some of the Taijiquan people I have trained and trained with over the years.


Thanks


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 11, 2012)

Learned another lineage's version of Siu Lim Tao; It comes from Leung Sheung and although it is not all that different than what I learned before that comes from Ip Ching, I think I like it better.

I was also shown Chum Kiu, I was not expected to remember it just yet but that is where I am headed


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## jeff_hasbrouck (Sep 12, 2012)

Xue Sheung,

First off, SNT (or however you would like to pronounce it folks) is known as "Little Idea Form".

The theoretical knowledge your supposed to gain from this statement and form is that you can't evolve or improve upon anything without a starting point or "little Idea".

First off many of the techniques are down with both arms stimutaneously, making you train "both sides" as it were to maximize your muscle memory (except for techniques that HAVE to be done on the center line).

The reason you learn SNT first is that it is used to create your base. This teaches you proper form and use of the stance. In Wing Tsun, your stance is the most important tool you have. There is no debate on this. If you don't utilize your stance, every single technique(s) you utilize will lose its max effective potential. And that is what WT is really all about, getting maximum potential from minimal effort.

You learn all the hand techniques in this form which cover from your waist (gaun-sau) to your face (pak/tan-sau) and everything inbetween. There are so many techniques in this form that it is literally bursting at the seems, and yet people seem to not realize this at all. (Maybe I'll post sectionalized video's (8 Sections in SNT) on all the techniques and a brief explanation there of.

So the main point of SNT is learning your base, utilizing your base and learning how to employ the basic's of your techniques.

Chum-kiu (Seeking the bridge) is of course the second form of wingtsun. This form teaches you to seek to bridge yourself with your opponent (and the lat-sau to supplement this is also aimed towards that goal). In this form you learn how to turn 3 kicks which is where bridging becomes important (going from kicking range to punching, elbow/knees, and clinch range). Even though you see a bong-sau in SNT, the bong-sau in Chum-kiu is completely different. It is posed in the sideling stance (second stage of bong-sau/da). Many people have a very angular bong-sau, this is not correct. Bong-sau is a transitional movment, and should be extended as far away from you as possible (this is to give yourself the space to manuvear your hands and body). If your bong-sau is collapsed, you can easily have it punched through or just not give yourself enough room, which basically nullifies the whole idea of the bong-sau.

Biu-tze (Biu-Jee) is known as (Thrusting Fingers or Darting Fingers (also targeted fingers)...

The main focus of BT is to teach you how to employ your force. The type of force that all internal martial art schools should be familiar with is called "Gung-lik" or "elastic force". By keeping yourself as loose as you can, transference of force is unhindered in its path from your body to your opponents. You also see huen-bo (cirlcling steps) in the beggining of this form (during the elbow section).

The dummy form has many things to teach the observant pupil. First and foremost it teaches you how to correct your own form. If you step into the dummy wrong, you can feel it, because the dummy doesn't give. Your hand techniques will fail because your structure is off from the ground up (reminding us of the importance of SNT). The dummy form starts off with Sheung-man-sau (Double inquisitve arm) and then goes immeadiatly into a meng-geng-sau (neck pulling hand) and a lap-sau (grappling hand) while posing in the sideling stance. Which brings us to the next thing it teaches us: Utilizing our whole body for max effectiveness. For the keen observer you can also see where these techniques are taken from in chi-sau.

The dummy has more to teach us. It teaches us how to move around your opponent, how to enter and how to flow our techniques. I see many people who only do the form and don't free-style. I am all about free movement, and if you so choose you can take a student who has only learned for a week and throw them on the dummy and they will come away with some knowledge.

The dummy incorporates all three of the previous forms and shows you how to utilize your techniques and theories in one device. 

The way it was explained to me when I first started wing tsun was that the dummy was the key to unlocking the secrets on how to beat another wingtsun man. And I find this to be a true but not an all-inclusive statement reguarding the effectiveness of training on the dummy.

Anyways, I hope I answered some of your questions, and I hope it helps you understand the system better.

All the best in your training sir,

Jeff


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