# hapkido



## hapki-bujutsu (Nov 12, 2003)

I was wondering. Where I trained in hapkido was in dover nh under master todd miller. His master was in korea grand master lim. He was very opinionated on his thoughts on hapkido. He also would never talk have ji hon jay or however it is spelled. He saod grandmaster lim was the eldest student and the true owner of hapkido. Now that I have left his school I am not sure he was 100% correct. What other peoples thoughts on the founder of hapkido? Is there really any one true version of this anymore?
What is ji hon jay's history?
Thanks I am very curious on this matter.

In respect

Eric


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## jkn75 (Nov 12, 2003)

In the Korean martial arts, there are some people who are masters and founders of different martial arts. Some like Kuk Sool Won, Hwarang Do, and Han Mu Do have clear cut founders. But even with this, some of the history is muddled. Some claim that KSW, HD and HMD are just those Grandmaster's versions of Hapkido. Additionally there are different versions of Hapkido by this Grandmaster or that Grandmaster. Finally throw the KidoHae into the mix and we have a large mess. 

Dr. He Young Kimm is/was at some point working on a History of Korean Martial Arts. In interviews he said he had talked to hundreds of masters and had been working on the History for over 10 years (I believe it was 3-4 years ago when I saw the article). This work could clarify things (I hope) or just make the water more murky. 

What we do know is the martial artists that survived the Japenese occupation and ban of Korean martial arts then tried to preserve their techniques through teaching. Some of Hapkido's founders trained with other founders and they all were taught techniques from the various Kwons that survived. 

Somewhere on the internet there is a family tree of Korean Martial arts, which is real interesting. I'll try to find the link.


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## Chris from CT (Nov 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu _
> * He saod grandmaster lim was the eldest student and the true owner of hapkido. Now that I have left his school I am not sure he was 100% correct. *



As jkn said before Korean martial art history is pretty foggy at times.  Certain things can be proved, such as some of the information about Grandmaster Lim (Im), Hyun-Soo.  

These things are proven...
1.  Grandmaster Lim is one of only 3 people in the world to receive his 9th dan directly from Dojunim Choi, Yong Sul.  

2.  Grandmaster Lim trained with Dojunim Choi for over 15 years.  

3. When Dojunim Choi closed his dojang in 1976 he joined with Grandmaster Lim  and taught out of GM Lim's Jung Ki Kwan until 1986 when he passed away.

Now as far as being "the true owner of Hapkido," I know Master Todd and we all can get pretty excited at times, but I don't believe that GM Lim would acknowledge that.  He is a very humble man with unbelievable technique.  At one point, it has been said that Dojunim Choi had appointed Chang, Chin-Il as his successor before he died, but the video tape proving that has not been released.  _(GM Chang is one of the other two receiving their 9th dan from Dojunim Choi)_  The surviving family of Dojunim Choi has appointed GM Kim, Yun-Sang as his successor. _(GM Kim is the third to receive their 9th dan from Dojunim Choi)_

Grandmaster Lim, Hyun-Soo is a major source of Dojunim Choi's Hapkido, but as far as being the owner I believe he doesn't care who owns it, because he just does what his teacher taught.



> _Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu _
> *What other peoples thoughts on the founder of hapkido?*



There are two thoughts within the Hapkido Community about the founder.

1. Choi, Yong-Sul - Founder of Hapkido 

2. Ji, Han-Jae - Founder of Hapkido

Dojunim Choi says he created the name Hapkido.  Ji Han Jae has said he created the name Hapkido and allowed Dojunim Choi to use it for what he taught.  

There is a big discussion on what Hapkido is between Dojunim Choi's Hapkido and GM Ji's Hapkido.  To me, its as Master Kong would say, "Same, Same, a little different."  By how one defines "Hapkido" is where they will decide who the founder is.



> _Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu _
> *Is there really any one true version of this anymore?*



Sorry brotha, No.  We can believe what we are told by our elders or we can just go by the facts that can be proved in todays world.  So that is totally up to you.

Take care.  

_The picture below is of Dojunim Choi with a young GM Lim, Hyun-Soo._


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## hapki-bujutsu (Nov 13, 2003)

thank that is what i was looking for. I remeber master miller had that picture in the dojang. Master Miller is a great guy who was very firm on his thoughts. i enjoyed my time there. I also took my jkd here as well. He has a teacher named paul who rents the place. I was just curious as to other peoples thoughts. Master miller trains in korea when ever he can as an excellent martial artist. One of his first teachers was my first teacher. Master Matt randle.

My lasy hapkido instructor who was also good seemed to have ill feelings about master miller. From what I gather they trained to togeather at one point.

Thanks for the info. What a small world.


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## hapki-bujutsu (Nov 13, 2003)

Chris do train in kuhapdo as well. I rather enjoy it my self. It was art you mention to people and they go..huh? lol


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## Chris from CT (Nov 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu _
> *Chris do train in kuhapdo as well. *



I do, but I could use a lot more practicing.   



> _Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu _
> *It was art you mention to people and they go..huh? lol *



Yeah, I hear ya.     GM Lim developed Kuhapdo.  So besides GM Lim and the rest of the guys in the Jung Ki Kwan doing demonstrations it isn't well known outside of the Korea.  Although Master Todd does throw some Kuhapdo seminars and "sword practioner get-togethers" for those here in the US.

Whatever you train in, enjoy it.
Take care.


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## greendragon (Nov 13, 2003)

I'm of the opinion these days that not only do I not know the true history about all of this but I am to the point where it doesn't even matter to me anymore... I have worked out with Ji Han Jae several times, been in the KHA,  been in the WHF, the Moo Ye Kwan, the AHA, and now the SMHKD,,worked out with Master Mike Wolmershauser in the early days,, been on the mat with Pelligrini, Master Whalen, Grandmaster J.R. West, Grandmaster Myung (creator of Hoi Jeon Moo Sool Hapkido), among many many others,, so I have heard every story about the history of hapkido that you can imagine,, I've come to the conclusion that no offense to anyone but I just don't care anymore... I'm like Chris,, I've seen the slight differences and likeness in all the Hapkido I've been around and to me now it is only about the "workout",,that is all I care about.  I've seen the stories change and evolve and have witnessed several versions of the chicken or the hapkido egg argued to the point of mental meltdown... in the end the ONLY thing that is important is,, does it work and does it make me a better person physically, mentally, and spiritually....
My two cents anyway...
                                               Michael Tomlinson


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## jkn75 (Nov 13, 2003)

This is courtesy of someone else.. they did the work I just saved it. Lineage of Korean MA


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 13, 2003)

That is a really interesting site.  Thanks for posting it.

What a breakdown!


SCS


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## Zepp (Nov 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jkn75 _
> *This is courtesy of someone else.. they did the work I just saved it. Lineage of Korean MA *



I've seen this chart before.  It is a nice breakdown, but I know that some of the dates are wrong on the TKD side, so I would advise double checking the information before passing it along in any posts or articles.


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## MartialArtsChic (Nov 14, 2003)

"in the end the ONLY thing that is important is,, does it work and does it make me a better person physically, mentally, and spiritually....
My two cents anyway..."

Very nicely said.  I agree wholehartedly.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 14, 2003)

Dear Eric: 

Please don't be too hard on Todd Miller. Todd advocates for GM Lim the way any person who has found a sound connection with an excellent teacher would. I know folks who advocate for GM Ji, Han Jae who carefully discount some of his "checkered" past because he is such a giving teacher. I have bandied words with folks who staunchly defend GM Lee Joo Bang and his assertions about the HwaRangDo material but you have to appreciate that he will at least leave behind a tightknit organization to watch over his traditions when he is gone. The same can be said of GM In Hyuk Suh and the World KukSoolWon Assn. 

As far as the lineages go, they warp and waft, shift and change as the seasons and associations modify. Some of the influences have to do with who can get the highest authentification or validation for what they are doing for the least inconvenience. You won't find a helluva lot of folks who have maintained an on-going relationship with a single teacher for an extended period of time. Sometimes thats because of the student and sometimes the teacher wants it that way. You chase around after the various lineages if you want--- everybody needs a hobby  -----
but the most important thing in my book is whether or not you have a trusting relationship with your teacher and the two of you are giving back to the art as much as you are taking out.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## hapki-bujutsu (Nov 14, 2003)

thanks for the rplys great ling thanks


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## hapki-bujutsu (Nov 16, 2003)

just wanted to say I enjoyed the links alot. I was doing somemore reading. I guess I took everything he said as word becasue of his abilty. The man may not have been 100% on his thought of thehistory myhis techniques where flawless. You did not want a jointlock put on you by this man. trust me. But i guess we all have personal thoughts as well as the facts. thanks


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 16, 2003)

Why did you quit training with Todd Miller, Eric?

SCS


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## Master Todd Miller (Nov 19, 2003)

Since I am being quoted,  I will jump right in:  I Have never Said Grandmaster Lim was the owner of Hapkido.  How can anyone own a Martial Art?  I have said that GM Lim was the direct student under Choi, Yong Sool longer than any other, nothing more nothing less.  I do speak of GM Ji often as he is very popular and does many seminars around the world.  I am not a student of GM Ji's style of Hapkido, I will let you guys that know GM Ji talk about him.

Just trying to clear up any misrepresenting or misunderstanding.

Take care
Todd Miller


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