# Breathing...



## GouRonin (Feb 16, 2002)

In a recent article on Kenpo in Black Belt Mag, (I know, not a great source but hey  ) they were talking about breathing or keyai on strikes. With the multiple rapid strikes the guy who wrote that article felt that only certain strength strikes needed a keyai. That if you tried to keyai on every strike you'd be winded. 

Any ideas on this?


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *With the multiple rapid strikes the guy who wrote that article felt that only certain strength strikes needed a keyai. That if you tried to keyai on every strike you'd be winded.
> 
> Any ideas on this?
> *



I couldnt imagine doing a Kiai on every strike. Not only would I be totally winded, I would sound like a freak!

The Okinawans developed the kiai because it suited perfectly their philosophy of one strike, one kill. I dont think this is tailored for Kenpo, and I dont see it in the Chinese systems either. I have really only seen it in karate systems and some Korean systems.

Just my thoughts.

Sanxiawuyi 
:asian:


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## kenpo_cory (Feb 16, 2002)

I agree that if you expell all of your air with every strike you with suffer in one area or the other, speed, power etc. I prefer the tea kettle method,  as it is reffered to by my kenpo insructor. It is like a tea kettle that slowly builds steam and releases pressure at a steady pace. This allows for power and greater speed for "rapid fire" strikes. Just my two cents worth.


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KENPO_CORY _
> *I prefer the tea kettle method,  as it is reffered to by my kenpo insructor. It is like a tea kettle that slowly builds steam and releases pressure at a steady pace. This allows for power and greater speed for "rapid fire" strikes. Just my two cents worth. *



That is how I was taught as well, and it seems to work for me. Just my four cents worth (I'm from Canada).

Sanxiawuyi
:rofl:


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## arnisador (Feb 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi _
> *The Okinawans developed the kiai*



Is this correct? I hadn't really thought about it before. It seems like an extension of Chinese breathing methods.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 16, 2002)

I agree it is almost, if not completly, impossble to fully exhale on every strike. I have only seen one person do this when doing forms and it looks and sounds phoney when he dose the form.
Exhaleing partially on each move and fully on the "kill" moves makes more sence. Try doing a long form and use a full exhale on every move (other than Sanchine)and do the form with speed. Let me know if you get through the form without getting light headed or passing out. Where you able to keep up the speed?
Shadow


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Is this correct? I hadn't really thought about it before. It seems like an extension of Chinese breathing methods. *



Yes, like almost everything else Japanese/Okinawan, it is an extension of a Chinese method. 

I believe it was developed from the various Chinese systems, which utilized Saam Chien quan (Sanchin in Japanese). The Okinawans then modified to fit their own methods of doing kata, and consequently you get the one strike one kill philosophy.

Chinese systems that use Saam Chien include:

Crane = He Quan
Dragon = Long Quan
Tiger = Hu Quan
Dog (or Ground) = Gou Quan
Monk = Heshang Quan
Lion = Shizi Quan

Sanxiawuyi
:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Feb 16, 2002)

Yes by all means, breathe, as often as possible.

:rofl:


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2002)

I connect a sharp full exhalation of air (with or w/o sound) with generating power so...

I would think that you would have to quage your breathing to the moves in the techniques. On minor moves you don't have to exhale as much since the intented result of the strike/check/block wouldn't need much power (hammer and a thumbtack idea). However on major moves where you are really hammering your opponent (circling downward elbow comes to mind) then a larger exhalation of air, even a kiai,  would aid in increasing your power.

On a different note kiai's can be used for other purposes such as startling an opponent and getting bystander's attention so I think that having a properly executed kiai is a very useful tool.

So basically what Gou posted at the start of this thread.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 23, 2002)

I should say  proper Breathing is very frequently overlooked.  It is vital to our survival.  There are many different methods and levels of development needed for a variety of uses.  Power, protection, distraction, etc. are just some of the uses.  It should be worked on daily throughout your workout.

:soapbox:


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## Chiduce (Feb 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *In a recent article on Kenpo in Black Belt Mag, (I know, not a great source but hey  ) they were talking about breathing or keyai on strikes. With the multiple rapid strikes the guy who wrote that article felt that only certain strength strikes needed a keyai. That if you tried to keyai on every strike you'd be winded.
> 
> Any ideas on this?
> *


 I prefer reverse abdominal breathing for maintaining striking power and speed in continuous striking within a minimum time frame! This type of breathing allows me to not use the kai to finish the attacker, yet i can change back ( prior to  finishing ) too normal abdominal breathing and use kai on the finish! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 25, 2002)

I have never heard this term before. What is it? or better yet How does one do this?

Billy Lear


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## Yari (Feb 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *In a recent article on Kenpo in Black Belt Mag, (I know, not a great source but hey  ) they were talking about breathing or keyai on strikes. With the multiple rapid strikes the guy who wrote that article felt that only certain strength strikes needed a keyai. That if you tried to keyai on every strike you'd be winded.
> 
> Any ideas on this?
> *




I work like a boxer, each punch, or move that goes outwardly gets a "huff". And when I want to emphesize something I give i a big Kiai. This helps me not to hold my breath when doing different movements.

What I find interessting is that some styles say you breath out while your movement is outwardly, but there are styles saying the oppesite. I find this difficult to do, but it should be much "stronger". Any comments?

/Yari


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## Chiduce (Feb 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I have never heard this term before. What is it? or better yet How does one do this?
> 
> Billy Lear  *


 Reverse Abdominal Breathing is practiced by the practitioner inhaling and gently pulling the Huiyin Cavity (Co-1 or anus) up, and as you exhale gently pushing the huiyin cavity out. You can however tense this area during inhalation and exhalation, if you are training Stationary And Moving Hard Qi Gong! Reverse Abdominal Breathing is usually a Soft Stationary And Moving Qi Qong Practice. A good example is if you are lifting a heavy weight or pushing a car. This energizes your muscular power to a higher, more powerful and spiritual state. "In order to manifest your power to a higher level in martial arts, you must train in your Reverse Abdominal Breathing Technique to be more efficient. This is the secret of  Jin and the way of the Dao"[1] The term "Jin"(Jing) is referred in this statment as "Chinese Martial Power"; the combination of "Li" (Muscular Power) and "Qi" (Energy)!  Reference; [1.]  The  Essence Of Martial Power And Qi Gong; Dr. Yang Jwing Ming; chapter 6, p# 162: Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 25, 2002)

You breath thru your rear??????????????????


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> * Reverse Abdominal Breathing is practiced by the practitioner inhaling and gently pulling the Huiyin Cavity (Co-1 or anus) up, and as you exhale gently pushing the huiyin cavity out. You can however tense this area during inhalation and exhalation, if you are training Stationary And Moving Hard Qi Gong!*



So... uh... er... it's like... Butthole Breathing?

:rofl:

Billy Lear


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## GouRonin (Feb 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *So... uh... er... it's like... Butthole Breathing?*



Ah ah ha ha ha!
:rofl:


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 26, 2002)

I hope that isn't "_Reverse Abdominal Laughing_". That would be wrong.

:moon: 

Billy Lear


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## Chiduce (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I hope that isn't "Reverse Abdominal Laughing". That would be wrong.
> 
> :moon:
> ...


 Yes Sir; actually when you laugh out loud , you are using reverse abdominal breathing! I know a good joke can be made of it; yet it increases the practitioners execution, application, striking power and speed two fold!  Kenpo is known for it's speed striking and flowing; (particularly AK) though i'am aware that it is not the case in some kenpo schools. From my understanding, some schools concentrate on speed flowing; some speed srtiking and some a little of both, if i can remember correcting using the slapping also? Anyway i can say that it keeps the undies clean. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 26, 2002)

You're alright Chiduce. At least you have a sense of humor. Which is more than I can say for most Kenpo Practitioners on these forums.

Billy Lear :cheers:


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## GouRonin (Feb 26, 2002)

Gimme an "S"!
Gimme an "Y"!
Gimme an "S"!
Gimme an "T"!
Gimme an "E"!
Gimme an "M"!
Gimme an "A"!
:shrug:


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 26, 2002)

I WILL NEVER JOIN YOU... EVEN IF YOU ARE MY SISTER'S, FRIEND'S, UNCLE'S COUSIN, TWICE REMOVED!!!

:jediduel: 

Billy "Gou must be crazy" Lear


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## GouRonin (Feb 26, 2002)

Why fight the tide? It's turning baby!
:iws: :barf:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2002)

When should we Kiai (spirit shout) and when not?

Are there different types of yells and which ones are the best and why?


:asian:


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## Yari (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *When should we Kiai (spirit shout) and when not?
> 
> Are there different types of yells and which ones are the best and why?
> ...



You should kiai .... "NOW"!

Some systems have speciale situations  in wich they do Kiai. Others do it when they feel it fits. It's all depending on what your system feels is correct.

If there are different kiai's. Well..... strickly speaking.. yes. To my knowledge there are ki-styles that emphesize different kiai. Some of the more extrem believe they can do different things  depending on the kind of kiai they use ie. get birds to fall from the sky. I think the best way of using different kiai's is for a kind of vocal meditation, that invokes different mental states.

/yari


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 1, 2002)

Explain in more detail please.....

:asian:


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## Cthulhu (Mar 1, 2002)

If it feels good, do it.

The only time kiai was really stressed from me was in forms.  In forms, I had to make sure I got the required kiai in at the correct spot.  I could add more kiai anywhere I wanted, but I also had to do the required kiai.  As my instructor says about kiai, "Add all you want, but never take away."

Often, I'll find myself doing kiai during bag drills or something, after I've gotten tired.  It gives me a little mental 'wake-up call', and also helps to invigorate me for another rep or three.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Mar 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Are there different types of yells and which ones are the best and why?*



There are indeed different approaches to this.

At a recent George Dillman seminar an instructor explained a theory of using sound at different frequencies to increase the effect of certain techniques (mostly locking I think). It was one of two sessions running at the same time and I attended the other session.


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## Blindside (Mar 1, 2002)

I find I seldom kiai anymore, though it was prevelant in both my traditional karate and kajukenbo training.

I find that I wind up doing sort of a punctuated growl at explosive points in my form.  This allows me to focus energy over a period of time, and particularly at the "punctuations."  I do it when I am tired and I am getting rocked by my opponent and need a boost, or when I've got him on the ropes and I'm going hard with a combination.  

It should be noted that in the traditional budo a "kiai" doesn't have to be loud or even heard.  The meeting of spirits refers to only the clash of spirits, not how you project it.  

Lamont


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## Yari (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Explain in more detail please.....
> 
> :asian: *




Well, It's doing kiai with different vocal's: A,E ,I ,O & U.  And interchanging between them as in AAaaaaa-OOOOOoouuuuu. 
But It's only something I've done for a couple of years, so I''m no expert. I found it good as medidation,but the stuff that you can do things with your voice ie. birds falling from the sky... nope...

/Yari


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## Battousai (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *Try doing a long form and use a full exhale on every move (other than Sanchine)and do the form with speed. Let me know if you get through the form without getting light headed or passing out. Where you able to keep up the speed?
> Shadow *



 I think getting light headed is a good thing (not passing out though). I certainly don't use a full exhale on every move. But doing katas like Sanchin(e) with the proscribed breathing at a fast pace is a good training exercise. The better you get at breathing, the faster you can go with less light headedness. Training your breathing so that you can get in more and more oxygen, while trying to put out more and more force, being winded is a sign that you are pushing the envelop of your cardiovascular system. The better your breathing the more force you can put out at faster and faster rates. 
 I don't think being light headed is a bad thing, but I no doctor. I get light headed just standing up fast so maybe I shouldn't be one to talk 

 My school teaches kiai theory alot like Cthulhu stated:

QUOTE]_Originally posted by Cthulhu_
If it feels good, do it. 

The only time kiai was really stressed from me was in forms. In forms, I had to make sure I got the required kiai in at the correct spot. I could add more kiai anywhere I wanted, but I also had to do the required kiai. As my instructor says about kiai, "Add all you want, but never take away." [/B][/QUOTE]

 Where ever you feel there power in the kata, add a kiai. And when you are taught were specific kiai are in a kata, try to figure out where the power comes from if it isn't readily apparent.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2002)

You need to seriously think about getting some help on breathing concepts. It is one of the most essential principles we have.  To not understand it is to forfeit your training.

:asian:


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## Yari (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Battousai _
> 
> *
> 
> I think getting light headed is a good thing (not passing out though).  *



Getting light headed by breathing technics indicateds a hightend level of oxegyn in the blod. This is "poisen" (sp?) for the brain, so to much of it will kill off brain cells.

I've seen alot of MA or yoga styles /medidation styles emphesize on this(hyper ventilating). Usally they say that they can stop before any damage is made, this is uncorrect. It's like drinking. Each time you drink brain cells get killed. The more you drink the more brain cells. But, is not like big parts of your brian disaper just because you drink a beer each friday. So usally under normal usage you'll never notice it. The same way for breathing technics.

Another misunderstood concept is that because you "feel good" you can achive efficent technics. To my understanding this is not correct. Peoples reaction time was controlled before and after hyperventilation, and the reaction time was the same, but thinking kognativ (logical think and stuff like that) was worse.

But remember that doing hyper ventilation once in a while isn't a problem (just like drinking).

Take care and train well

/Yari


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2002)

A yeah ....... ok?


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## Yari (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *A yeah ....... ok?
> 
> *




2 X  

What don't you understand?

/Yari


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2002)

:idunno: I'm Lost


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## Yari (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *:idunno: I'm Lost *



If I knew what kind of map you wanted.....  


/yari


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## tunetigress (Mar 5, 2002)

As a Wind Instrument educator, Vocal Production trainer, and student of Kenpo , it is clear to me from decades of study of breathing techniques, that no single breathing technique or style can be all things to all people.  Some techniques simply do not work with some people!  The power of our life itself comes from our breath, and I M H O this is an area of study in which many tend to shortchange themselves.  Use of breath for power is a completely different skill than breathing to sustain life, and requires quite a bit of focussed attention on muscular control and development. I encourage those studying MA to explore a wide variety of breathing techniques, and not just those taught in the MA!  In fact, over the years some of the best breath training I received was in (gasp!) Yoga training, and Choir!  Respectfully,     _(_)_    Tune


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## Battousai (Mar 5, 2002)

Hmm,
  I was never talking about hyperventilation. But if light headedness is a bad thing what is a good way to develop breathing techniques in your opinions (Golddragon7 and Yari).
 The way I was taught (besides kata) to train breathing was after some exercise, when your heart rate is up, to breath in as deep as possible through the nose, hold it 2 to 5 seconds (longer is better), then exhale as slowly as possible through the mouth. The heart rate goes up when you breath in, and goes down when you breath out. For me, some light headedness comes while trying to hold my breath for 2 to 5 seconds, then falls away when I breath out.
 What do you guys think? How different is this from your training methods? 
 What are the concepts that you think I am missing Golddragon7, please elaborate


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2002)

Sorry, now I understand what you were talking about.  It just didn't click for me the way I read it before.  LOL

I agree with what you just said and also with Tune!  As a past musician (Drums & Trumpet) breathing is definitely necessary!!

The exercises you suggested are good as well as running and swimming and training to hold out underwater as long as you can.
In through the nose for a count of 5 and out for a slow methodical count of 10 is the generic drill.

Keep it up!

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *You breath thru your rear?????????????????? *



That has to lead to really bad breath.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *I hope that isn't "Reverse Abdominal Laughing". That would be wrong.
> 
> ...



Too hear that at its best give Jaybacca a bowl of chili and some rye.


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## Yari (Mar 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Battousai _
> 
> *For me, some light headedness comes while trying to hold my breath for 2 to 5 seconds, then falls away when I breath out.
> What do you guys think? How different is this from your training methods?
> *



Well, this is the same as hyperventilation, but the oppesite. It's just that your depreiving the brain of oxegyn. Again doing this to learn to control your breathing is OK, but I believe that over exaggerating isn't good for you, and that's also because you can "break" your breaths normal function to decide how much air it needs. There are many pitfalls, but with a good instructor who knows what he's doing don't worry.


/Yari


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 7, 2002)

If you ever see a blonde walking down the street with a walkman don't remove it.  The tape reminds her to breath in, breath out, breath in, breat....

I couldn't resist.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 7, 2002)

:rofl:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 9, 2002)

Breath in, Breath out, Breath in, Breath out

This has been a public service anouncement for all the blond readers.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *Breath in, Breath out, Breath in, Breath out
> 
> This has been a public service anouncement for all the blond readers. *



:roflmao:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 10, 2002)

I take it your wife is not Blonde


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *   I take it your wife is not Blonde  *



Only in spirit!


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 10, 2002)

:rofl: good response  :rofl:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 10, 2002)

I have to be careful she doesn't read these comments or she will cook somethng and make me eat it.  Oh the inhumanity.


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## KenpoGirl (Mar 10, 2002)

I have a feeling, or at least I'm hoping, you're like "Norm" on the old sitcome "Cheers".

Nuthing good to say about your wife in front of the BOYS, but in private, you love her to pieces and wouldn't have her any other way.

At least that's what I'm praying for.  :shrug: 

I wonder what "little" things she'd have to say about you???     Eh?  (I'm canadian I have to say "EH")

dot


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## Kirk (Mar 10, 2002)

> _ Originally Posted By: KenpoGirl_
> Nuthing good to say about your wife in front of the BOYS, but in private, you love her to pieces and wouldn't have her any other way.



heheheheh ... Can't help but hear "The Man Song" in my head
whenever Rob says things about his wife.   Funny thing is .. I've
never heard him say anything bad about her .. just her cooking.

hmmm ... maybe I should organize a Kenpo Cooking Conference.
We all go pound on each other, and the significant others (being
man or woman) get together with Emeril or something, and
learn how to 'kick things up a notch'.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Great idea, instead of having to get my stomach pumped, I'll end up in the morgue.  Adding spices to a bad meal still makes it a bad meal.


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