# What is your highest tested belt rank?



## The Master (Jan 16, 2007)

Long have I seen the arguments concerning rank on numerous discussion sites. Long have I seen the arguments concerning earned vs awarded vs cross ranking.

Well, my opinion is simple. If you didn't sweat for it, it's not real.
Someone saying 'You've been a 4th for 2 years, good job, here's your 5th' seems cheap to me.  Sending in your video tape some good-ole-boys sokeboard, moreso. I mean, has anyone ever sent their tape and cash in and NOT! gotten their promotion?  Is someone with who has only sweat and bleed and felt the pain to 3 1st degree belts really suddenly qualified to buy themselves a grandmastership by mail order?

So, I have to ask this highly charged question:
What is your current rank, and when was the last test you stepped on a floor and showed your metal to a senior or panel of peers?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 16, 2007)

Blue belt. Had the lumps and bruised to show for it.


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## Kacey (Jan 16, 2007)

The Master said:


> So, I have to ask this highly charged question:
> What is your current rank, and when was the last test you stepped on a floor and showed your metal to a senior or panel of peers?



IV Dan in TKD, tested in front of the president of my association (VI Dan), my instructor (VI Dan) and a Master Instructor (VII Dan) from an affiliated association in February 2005.  All of my tests - gup and dan - have been in front of live boards.  The only part of any of my tests that was taped was my hol-sin-sul (self-defense routine) for III Dan, due to the need for 3 attackers/partners, and the fact that my testing was in Reno, NV, and my partners were all from Denver, CO and not all able to travel to Reno - so that one portion of the testing was taped and submitted to the Master Instructor (VIII Dan) who was the head of the test board.


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## shesulsa (Jan 16, 2007)

1st Dan, CMAA system Korean martial arts (non-WHRDA affiliated).  Tested October 2004 in front of a panel of seven.  Master Ken Corona, SBN C. Gallino, SBN M. Hills were the highest ranked there.


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## wade (Jan 16, 2007)

6th Dan, about 7 years ago. I was tested on refereeing, self defense, sparring (WTF TKD) so yes with all the gear and going full at it. Breaking boards and bricks (jump spin back kick on the brick). History, 1st aid/CPR, yada yada yada. Also was taken into consideration was the the fact of how long I had been an instructor, how well my students perform in competition and in the Dojang, what advanced classes and seminars that I had taken to further my own education and advancement in TKD and also the martial arts as a whole. Was I ready for it, you bet. Was it still long and hard, yes. Will I be testing again, well, according to the KKW I will be on the floor doing it all again if I ever want to advance. I agree, if it is worth having it is worth working for. When something is given to you with our earning it then that is what it is worth.


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## matt.m (Jan 16, 2007)

The Master said:


> Long have I seen the arguments concerning rank on numerous discussion sites. Long have I seen the arguments concerning earned vs awarded vs cross ranking.
> 
> Well, my opinion is simple. If you didn't sweat for it, it's not real.
> Someone saying 'You've been a 4th for 2 years, good job, here's your 5th' seems cheap to me. Sending in your video tape some good-ole-boys sokeboard, moreso. I mean, has anyone ever sent their tape and cash in and NOT! gotten their promotion? Is someone with who has only sweat and bleed and felt the pain to 3 1st degree belts really suddenly qualified to buy themselves a grandmastership by mail order?
> ...


 
I have tested for brown, but randoried at dan level for a few years for the Marine Corps.  In October I received my dan from a sixth dan whom I haven't seen in 10yrs.  I have 33 gold medals from dan level randori, so I do believe I deserve the rank.  He never tested me because he got transferred a month before I was going to do the prac ap and written.  

I have tested for and passed my green belt in hapkido - 5th gup and blue belt in tae kwon do - 4th gup.

I understand where you are going with your thought process, but there are exceptions to every rule.  Not trying to start a fight, I have seen people go from white to blue belt in tae kwon do in 5 months so I know what you are talking about.


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## exile (Jan 16, 2007)

Tested for brown in Song Moo Kwan TKD about six months ago, before my instructor (5th Dan, KKW certified, SMK lineage). I'm going up for red belt next Tuesday.


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## Carol (Jan 16, 2007)

The Master said:


> Long have I seen the arguments concerning rank on numerous discussion sites. Long have I seen the arguments concerning earned vs awarded vs cross ranking.
> 
> Well, my opinion is simple. If you didn't sweat for it, it's not real.
> Someone saying 'You've been a 4th for 2 years, good job, here's your 5th' seems cheap to me. Sending in your video tape some good-ole-boys sokeboard, moreso. I mean, has anyone ever sent their tape and cash in and NOT! gotten their promotion? Is someone with who has only sweat and bleed and felt the pain to 3 1st degree belts really suddenly qualified to buy themselves a grandmastership by mail order?
> ...


 
I joined a system that doesn't have rank a few months ago.  It was quite eye-opening.  Instead of bickering in politicizing we just......train.


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## Blindside (Jan 17, 2007)

I tested for first black over seven years ago.  

Four years ago, at a tournament, he awarded me my second, and I have NEVER thought that it was a bogus rank because I didn't test.  Our black belts don't test, they are just observed by our instructors, when they learn the material, and are ready they get their rank.  I am observed teaching, self-defense, and sparring every week, and when I'm ready, I'll be awarded my 3rd.  I think thats a bit more of a real test than some 5 hour cardio fest.  I think your premise is bogus, but what the hell, it is your premise.  

Lamont


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## Dave Leverich (Jan 17, 2007)

Hm, every degree I've gotten. Also instructor certification. Much like Wade above, although in mine the instructor certification is at a different time (your degree is how many years between recertification etc).

My first was my first degree in 86, 2nd degree in 91, 3rd in 2000, 4th at the start of 2006. The panel on the last one was 1 8th, 6-7ths, and 5 6th degrees. Board breaks, form and sparring was the material.

There is a minimum time before one's eligible to advance in dan ranks as well, your current rank. So I won't be eligible until 2010 for 5th, 2015 for 6th etc.

22 years at this though, I'm not in any hurry hehe.


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## wade (Jan 17, 2007)

Dave, I got my 1st in 1970 so as you can see I have just been shooting up through the ranks.................................. . I figure at the rate I'm going I'll see my 7th about the time I turn 70.


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## Haze (Jan 17, 2007)

Tested 1991 for Shodan (goju ryu). Board consisted of 2nd and 3rd dans from my dojo, my instructor/4th dan, his instructor/8th dan.

Trained untill 93 and was out for a short time (about 13 yrs) Back now for 10 months or so and I'm happy just seeking knowledge and don't care about testing.


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2007)

Tested for my 3rd black in Kenpo, Oct. 1999

Tested for 3rd brown in Arnis July 2006

Personally, I don't want anything handed to me.  If I don't bust my tail to earn it, I don't want it.  I've busted my tail training for all of my rank.  

Mike


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 17, 2007)

Orange, I know its not as spectacular as everyone elses but its as far as i have gotten. I have a ways to go and as i go i dont want anything handed to me. I want to earn it, you are not only earning the rank but you are earning the respect and that is something that can not be given no matter what people say it must be earned. 

Would it be considered disrespectful to refuse the promotion to a higher rank? Say because you would rather be tested on it. Can some fo the more experienced people answer this for me. Im interested. Thanks

B


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2007)

KempoGuy06 said:


> Would it be considered disrespectful to refuse the promotion to a higher rank? Say because you would rather be tested on it. Can some fo the more experienced people answer this for me. Im interested. Thanks
> 
> B


 
I'll do my best to answer your question.  If this was something honorary, personally, I wouldn't want it.  Why would I want to accept a rank in something that I don't train in?  Many arts, once you reach a certain rank, there is no physical test, per se, but instead its more of time in grade and what you've given back to the art.  The person in this situation is actually doing something, giving something back, so in that case, I see nothing wrong with accepting the rank.

Mike


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## terryl965 (Jan 17, 2007)

Well the last time I tested was December of 04 in front of Master Combe, Master Combe that is right they are brother and Master Kim and Grand Master Kim it was over two days and it was an actual test for my 4th Dan KKW.

I do not plan on testing again, until the last test it was almost twenty years between test the only rason for the test to be able to get 1st, 2nd and 3rd dans from the KKW.

I hope this answer your question.


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## Slippery_Pete (Jan 17, 2007)

1st gup a couple of months ago in front of two master instructors.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 17, 2007)

MJS said:


> I'll do my best to answer your question. If this was something honorary, personally, I wouldn't want it. Why would I want to accept a rank in something that I don't train in? Many arts, once you reach a certain rank, there is no physical test, per se, but instead its more of time in grade and what you've given back to the art. The person in this situation is actually doing something, giving something back, so in that case, I see nothing wrong with accepting the rank.
> 
> Mike


 
What about this?

I train in SKK and my school is connected to GM Brassards. He went to test for his 7th degree (i think) and was awarded his 10th degree because of his contributions. Would it have been disrespectful for him in this situation to refuse the higher rand and the title? 

B


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## rmclain (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> Long have I seen the arguments concerning rank on numerous discussion sites. Long have I seen the arguments concerning earned vs awarded vs cross ranking.
> 
> Well, my opinion is simple. If you didn't sweat for it, it's not real.
> Someone saying 'You've been a 4th for 2 years, good job, here's your 5th' seems cheap to me. Sending in your video tape some good-ole-boys sokeboard, moreso. I mean, has anyone ever sent their tape and cash in and NOT! gotten their promotion? Is someone with who has only sweat and bleed and felt the pain to 3 1st degree belts really suddenly qualified to buy themselves a grandmastership by mail order?
> ...


 
I took my final exam for 4th Dan under Grandmaster Kim Soo in December 2004.  I had 3 pre-exams over the course of about 1 year prior to the final exam.

R. McLain


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## TraditionalTKD (Jan 17, 2007)

Tested for 5th Dan last month. Panel consisted of two 7th Dans and a 9th Dan, authorized by the Kukkiwon. Did both forms and then a Q and A session with the judges.


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2007)

KempoGuy06 said:


> What about this?
> 
> I train in SKK and my school is connected to GM Brassards. He went to test for his 7th degree (i think) and was awarded his 10th degree because of his contributions. Would it have been disrespectful for him in this situation to refuse the higher rand and the title?
> 
> B


 
Personally, I'm not a big fan of skipping rank.  If someone was a 4th and was awarded a 9th or 10th, I'd lean more towards that being wrong.  I really don't know much about the gentleman you mention, how long he's been in the arts, or the contributions he's made.  If the people that awarded him this rank, honestly feel that he's deserving of it, then so be it.  IMHO, I'm at a point, in which rank isn't placed as high on the pedestal as training.  Its been 8yrs. since I last tested.  If I was in a rush, I'd have found some way to get that 4th and possibly 5th.  

Mike


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 17, 2007)

MJS said:


> Personally, I'm not a big fan of skipping rank. If someone was a 4th and was awarded a 9th or 10th, I'd lean more towards that being wrong. I really don't know much about the gentleman you mention, how long he's been in the arts, or the contributions he's made. If the people that awarded him this rank, honestly feel that he's deserving of it, then so be it. IMHO, I'm at a point, in which rank isn't placed as high on the pedestal as training. Its been 8yrs. since I last tested. If I was in a rush, I'd have found some way to get that 4th and possibly 5th.
> 
> Mike


 
He has been in it a while here is his website http://www.jamesbrassard.com/. I was just curious on someones opinion on the subject. I agree with you on rank vs training. I am more more worried about the quality of training i recieve as to the quantity of belts i have.

B


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> Long have I seen the arguments concerning rank on numerous discussion sites. Long have I seen the arguments concerning earned vs awarded vs cross ranking.
> 
> Well, my opinion is simple. If you didn't sweat for it, it's not real.
> Someone saying 'You've been a 4th for 2 years, good job, here's your 5th' seems cheap to me. Sending in your video tape some good-ole-boys sokeboard, moreso. I mean, has anyone ever sent their tape and cash in and NOT! gotten their promotion? Is someone with who has only sweat and bleed and felt the pain to 3 1st degree belts really suddenly qualified to buy themselves a grandmastership by mail order?
> ...


 
Random Side note: What does sweating on ONE DAY at a test have to do with anything? Training should involve the "blood sweat and tears" over a period of time so one day and a test is really miniscule on the grand scale. If an instructor has seen you sweat and bleed in front of him/her for a certain period time (whatever their standards are) and they feel you are ready for a belt (whatever their standards are) what does a formal test have to say that the last few months and/or years working with you didn't already say? Nothing in my opinion, it's just a formality.

With that said I've tested for every belt I've ever earned. And here are some of my current stats..

3rd Dan TKD (1998)
3rd Level Black Sash Kung Fu (1998)
2nd Dan Ju Jitsu (2003)
3rd Dan American Kenpo (2003 and 2004 for different instructors)


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## Tames D (Jan 17, 2007)

wade said:


> Dave, I got my 1st in 1970 so as you can see I have just been shooting up through the ranks.................................. . I figure at the rate I'm going I'll see my 7th about the time I turn 70.


So your one of those typical rank chasers... LOL


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jan 17, 2007)

KempoGuy06 said:


> He has been in it a while here is his website http://www.jamesbrassard.com/. I was just curious on someones opinion on the subject. I agree with you on rank vs training. I am more more worried about the quality of training i recieve as to the quantity of belts i have.
> 
> B


 
Personally not a fan of skipping belts at all. If you are really that good and have been doing it that long then you should know that A) your rank really doesn't mean that much and B) you'll get to the highest rank over time anyway if you are that good and contributing that much. So my question is what's the motivation and the rush for skipping degrees? It doesn't make you any better at DOING or TEACHING anything. It just makes you LOOK better to those that value the amount of tips on someone's belt. There really is no valid reason I've heard for skipping ranks as oppossed to waiting it out except when founding one's own system. In the last case it's a toss up whether or not the person wants to start their new system at the highest level or if they want their rank to progress as their system progresses like Ed Parker and a few others did.


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## The Master (Jan 17, 2007)

I'm looking at this from an academic perspective. One doesn't test for an associate degreeand walk out with a masters. By that sae token, one doesn't sign up for a class, do nothing, and yet still pass.

The definition of testing, has some room for variance.
The test can be 20 minutes, a couple of hours, several days, or several years.
The key point here is that you earned it.

It wasn't just handed to you for showing up to some seminars, buying the "big guy" some toys, or sending off a video tape and a check to some fat-boys board. It wasn't given because you had the big event, or let the GM sleep with your wife/daughter, or married his daughter, or such stupidity. You didn't pin it on yourself, and you didn't leave your instuctor as a green and open your own shack as a "founder". (All of these are actual event)

I don't have a problem with skipping a level, as exceptional students are often bumped a grade in school, and I'm aware that some systems will promote based on time-in.

If you took a time-in promotion, yet have been on the mats teaching, training, growing as a person, a businessman, and a martial artist, then that is still passing the daily tests.

On the other hand, if you have been sitting on your ***, rarely if ever get on the floor, but bring the big kahuna in twice a year and line his pockets with green and got promoted, then, poo to you.

I've seen people promoted because of who they knew. I've also seen people beat incredible odds to train, and be promoted because of their personal tests. The former is cheap, the later, inspiring.

Oh, and to any "sokes" who will argue that they were examined by a board of their peers/seniors, I have 2 simple questions. 1-Has anyone ever failed the test? 2-Did you send raw footage, or an edited tape of your 'best'? Thought so.

Good Day


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## ArmorOfGod (Jan 17, 2007)

matt.m said:


> I understand where you are going with your thought process, but there are exceptions to every rule. Not trying to start a fight, I have seen people go from white to blue belt in tae kwon do in 5 months so I know what you are talking about.


 
You know, over the past few years, I have found that I agree with that.
There are so many exceptions due to life stepping in.  I don't like being promoted by associations, but what do you do if your sensei moves or dies and there is no one in your area to promote you.
Unfortunately, there are so many crooked orgs that it is near impossible to find a legit one that isn't just about the money.

AoG


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## shesulsa (Jan 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Random Side note: What does sweating on ONE DAY at a test have to do with anything? Training should involve the "blood sweat and tears" over a period of time so one day and a test is really miniscule on the grand scale. If an instructor has seen you sweat and bleed in front of him/her for a certain period time (whatever their standards are) and they feel you are ready for a belt (whatever their standards are) what does a formal test have to say that the last few months and/or years working with you didn't already say? Nothing in my opinion, it's just a formality.



WORD!!

A test isn't how you do that day ... the test begins the first day you set foot on the mat.  Every day in class is a test, every day out of class is a test.  Every word that comes out of your mouth is a test.

The test is not the 20 minute kata run you did for your nth degree, or the choreographed sparring rounds you perform for nth gup.  It's not the breaks, it's not the kicks, it's the cumulation of your training from day one forward, and how you react to the test you were administered.  If you thought your test was going to be way harder and was, in your opinion, a joke, your reaction to that is part of your test.  If your test was way harder than you prepared for, your reaction to THAT is part of your test. 

Testing day is a formality ... little more.


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## wade (Jan 17, 2007)

QUI-GON, since I've had both my knees operated on, one from a  motorcycle accident when I was hit head on in my lane and the other from a TKD breaking act, I don't chase the ranks as much as I ambush them. I can't run for squat, but if I stay real still and don't make eye contact sometime they will wonder by and then I kinda just fall on them. I tried jumping on them once but it hurt my knees too much. The problem I have then is hanging on, they can be real slippery little bas, uh, things. :whip1: 

As for refusing rank from a higher belt, don't do it. If they feel that you deserve the rank, take it, thank him/her and move on. If some one refuses me if I try to do it, I won't push the issue but you can bet it will be a cold day in hell before I offer or test them again. I won't say I won't, it's just that it will be a long time. Not being a snob or stuck up but if I am their instructor then it is my decision when they move up or not, not theirs. When they run their own schools then they can make those kind of decisions.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 17, 2007)

I heard a story about a guy once.  Had a legit 1st black. Then had a falling out with his instructor, jumped to another org, got his 2nd for signing up.  A year later, had another falling out, jumped again, this time to 4th.  Spent a year on vacation, and came back a grandmaster in his own system now. Guy is in his mid 20's. Unreal.

Personally, I want ever belt I wear to be earned. If I want to buy one, I'll got to Walmart, get one with a buckle as I hate tying em, lol.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 17, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Personally not a fan of skipping belts at all. If you are really that good and have been doing it that long then you should know that A) your rank really doesn't mean that much and B) you'll get to the highest rank over time anyway if you are that good and contributing that much. So my question is what's the motivation and the rush for skipping degrees? It doesn't make you any better at DOING or TEACHING anything. It just makes you LOOK better to those that value the amount of tips on someone's belt. There really is no valid reason I've heard for skipping ranks as oppossed to waiting it out except when founding one's own system. In the last case it's a toss up whether or not the person wants to start their new system at the highest level or if they want their rank to progress as their system progresses like Ed Parker and a few others did.


 
Just want to make it clear that he didnt go in expecting his 10th. I trained for his 7th or whatever he was going for and then tested for it. Who ever the big wigs are that give you that kind of stuff decided that he deserved it so they awarded it to him. This is coming from my instructor and i have no reason to believe the information is false.

B


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## shesulsa (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> I've seen people promoted because of who they knew. I've also seen people beat incredible odds to train, and be promoted because of their personal tests. The former is cheap, the later, inspiring.
> 
> Oh, and to any "sokes" who will argue that they were examined by a board of their peers/seniors, I have 2 simple questions. 1-Has anyone ever failed the test? 2-Did you send raw footage, or an edited tape of your 'best'? Thought so.
> 
> Good Day


Just curious, TM ... what is your highest rank and who presided over your test?


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## Haze (Jan 17, 2007)

If you train, as stated previously, and your instructor sees you from day to day is there anything wrong with being promoted without formal testing?

Was there formal testing when most of our arts where developed? Probably not.

My instructor is always telling me I need to test for higher rank. My reply,,,," If you think I deserve it, then promote me."


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## shesulsa (Jan 17, 2007)

Haze said:


> If you train, as stated previously, and your instructor sees you from day to day is there anything wrong with being promoted without formal testing?


Not necessarily.



			
				Haze said:
			
		

> Was there formal testing when most of our arts where developed? Probably not.


My teacher said that in Judo, when his teacher felt he had reached the appropriate next level he was handed his new belt and was told to put it on.  "Here."  Heh heh.



Haze said:


> My instructor is always telling me I need to test for higher rank. My reply,,,," If you think I deserve it, then promote me."


Hm. Well ... in a TMA I can see where the attitude might keep you from getting promoted. :idunno:


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## Kacey (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> Oh, and to any "sokes" who will argue that they were examined by a board of their peers/seniors, I have 2 simple questions. 1-Has anyone ever failed the test?


Yes.



The Master said:


> 2-Did you send raw footage, or an edited tape of your 'best'? Thought so.


Raw footage.  So I guess you're not right all the time, despite your expressed opinion of yourself, and of others' training and testing.

Please don't force your assumptions that we all cheat/don't deserve our belts/etc. on us simply because for _some _people it is true.

There are a lot of belt factories and McDojo's out there - that's not in debate.  That does not mean, however, that everyone who has ever attained a rank did so in an inappropriate fashion.  As has been said, my test for each rank began the day I stepped on the mat after the previous testing, and culminated in the test itself.  Pretesting occurred throughout each time I stepped on the floor.  

If it is not possible to fail, then it is not a test; however, as an instructor, I will not put a student up for testing who _cannot_ pass - that is poor practice on my part.  That does not, however, guarantee that students _will_ pass, and I have had students who have not, for a wide variety of reasons, ranging from lack of effort at testing to a nervous breakdown (and a I mean that literally; said student has a biochemical mood disorder which includes anxiety, and lost it totally before testing - but he came back the next time and performed beautifully) - but performing under stress is part of the testing process.  Anyone can perform in class, in familiar surroundings, with only classmates to watch, where the goal is catch and correct mistakes - it is much harder to perform in front of a test board, with family, friends, and cameras watching.



shesulsa said:


> Just curious, TM ... what is your highest rank and who presided over your test?


What she said.  For a person who is so concerned about the testing processes others undergo, I find it interesting that you call yourself "The Master" - a title I generally expected to be bestowed, not taken.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 17, 2007)

I tested but not in the traditional way.  Mine were over a period of time.  I still like the old school testing better though.  My current rank is 6th dan just got it at the first of the month.


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## Carol (Jan 17, 2007)

Kacey said:


> For a person who is so concerned about the testing processes others undergo, I find it interesting that you call yourself "The Master" - a title I generally expected to be bestowed, not taken.


 
"Master" is also the title for boy children.  Once they grow up, they are called "Mister".


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## The Master (Jan 17, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> Just curious, TM ... what is your highest rank and who presided over your test?


An interesting question. My rank, is Mastre. The tester is no longer with us.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> An interesting question. My rank, is Mastre. The tester is no longer with us.


Now I really find this odd that you won't answer the question with anything other than that.


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## Carol (Jan 17, 2007)

Yeah, it does appear that he is a Master Baiter.

Did I really just say that?  

*ducking for cover*
:redcaptur


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## The Master (Jan 17, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> Raw footage. So I guess you're not right all the time, despite your expressed opinion of yourself, and of others' training and testing.


 
Which soke board was it?



> Please don't force your assumptions that we all cheat/don't deserve our belts/etc. on us simply because for _some _people it is true.
> 
> There are a lot of belt factories and McDojo's out there - that's not in debate. That does not mean, however, that everyone who has ever attained a rank did so in an inappropriate fashion. As has been said, my test for each rank began the day I stepped on the mat after the previous testing, and culminated in the test itself. Pretesting occurred throughout each time I stepped on the floor.


 
But you were on the floor, and demonstrated your skill and spirt each time you set foot on there. You didn't get promoted because you had perfect attendance, or a nice smile, or bought the GM lunch.



> If it is not possible to fail, then it is not a test; however, as an instructor, I will not put a student up for testing who _cannot_ pass - that is poor practice on my part. That does not, however, guarantee that students _will_ pass, and I have had students who have not, for a wide variety of reasons, ranging from lack of effort at testing to a nervous breakdown (and a I mean that literally; said student has a biochemical mood disorder which includes anxiety, and lost it totally before testing - but he came back the next time and performed beautifully) - but performing under stress is part of the testing process. Anyone can perform in class, in familiar surroundings, with only classmates to watch, where the goal is catch and correct mistakes - it is much harder to perform in front of a test board, with family, friends, and cameras watching.


 
How one deals with failure, is also a test. There is a difference between the "brainfart" and the "never knew it in the first place".  The instructor who knows their students well enough to know the difference is a good one, in my not so humble opinion.



> What she said. For a person who is so concerned about the testing processes others undergo, I find it interesting that you call yourself "The Master" - a title I generally expected to be bestowed, not taken.


 
I am what I am. http://dict.die.net/master/


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## The Master (Jan 17, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Yeah, it does appear that he is a Master Baiter.
> 
> Did I really just say that?
> 
> ...


Come again? Sometimes the comments rub one the wrong way. It makes a mess out of perfectly normal meglomania.


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## Blindside (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> Come again? Sometimes the comments rub one the wrong way. It makes a mess out of perfectly normal meglomania.


 
Still dodging the question?


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## The Master (Jan 17, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Still dodging the question?


Not at all.
I was asked what my highest rank is.
I answered. "Mastre"
I was asked who tested me.
My own departed instructor, who never cared for fame. 
There are no levels, ranks, dans, or their ilk, just training.
Hard training, and a disdain for self promoting egos, who wear muti striped belts, who misuse foreign languages, who try to buy prestige, and purchase that which their own shortcomings otherwise keep them from.

I have no problem with those who train in arts that keep score. When the art is legit, it is a good way to tell where people stand. But today, it is too easy to buy rank, rather than earn it. So I asked who tested.

The answers are interesting. Diverse. Educating.
They give me more respect for a number of people here, some who already had it, but now a bit more is understood on their own journey.


Salute.


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## terryl965 (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> Not at all.
> I was asked what my highest rank is.
> I answered. "Mastre"
> I was asked who tested me.
> ...


 

Ok I'm one of those people with the stripes on my belt, so what? I can tell you this I never ask or begged for my stripes and when I get ask a straight forward question I can answer it without dodging around corners. I find everything you have said when ask a question to be disrespectful and down right rude toward some highly qualify people on this forum. Why hide who and what you are if you are of any important to anybody elses training and have been training and your Instructor is decease than why not say. I tell people who I have trained with and I;m proud of the poeple that have given me far more than I could ever give them.

A master of what duck and dodge.

Yes I almost never get angry here on this forum but you sir have deistrated lack of Humility and respect towards your fellow Martial Artist here on thei forum.

What style are you me TKD and proud of it
What rank are you me 4th dan Kukkiwon certified and 5th Okinawa Karate
Where do you train and who do you train with, again me I own and operate a school located in Arlington Texas and train under the guideience of 5 other Master that I have mention before.

You bring this upon yourself for being not up front with answer to legitament question.


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## wade (Jan 17, 2007)

Go to www.usakarate.org and go to the link page if ya wanna see something interesting. They will register you as an individual member and also give you BB rank all the way up to master for a very reasonable price be it Karate, Taekwondo, Jujitsu are what ever. If at anytime you think your own system does not respect you nor give you due credit for what you have done this is the place to go. Then when questions like who tested you and where you tested and what your rank is (here it is $100 per Dan, all the way up to 10th), well then you can give them an honest answer. Pardon any misspelled words, it's hard to type this while I am still laughing so hard about it. SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, don't beat each other up, the answer is right here.......................:mst:.


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## terryl965 (Jan 17, 2007)

wade said:


> Go to www.usakarate.org and go to the link page if ya wanna see something interesting. They will register you as an individual member and also give you BB rank all the way up to master for a very reasonable price be it Karate, Taekwondo, Jujitsu are what ever. If at anytime you think your own system does not respect you nor give you due credit for what you have done this is the place to go. Then when questions like who tested you and where you tested and what your rank is (here it is $100 per Dan, all the way up to 10th), well then you can give them an honest answer. Pardon any misspelled words, it's hard to type this while I am still laughing so hard about it. SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, don't beat each other up, the answer is right here.......................:mst:.


 

Wade if only I knew this before all the training and to think I could be a 10th already and be in there hall of fame too!!!!


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## The Master (Jan 17, 2007)

Wade has found a source of my complaint.
Belt mills, mcdojos, old boy networks, and their ilk.

No disrespect was meant towards any legitimate people. 
Who have I disrespected?
I haven't named any names.
So I fail to see why there is hostility towards me.

But please, don't tell me that showing up for class 3 times a week for 2 years somehow is equal to skill and ability, or that sending a check and a vhs tape to some PO box in Florida for fat men to watch is the same as stepping on the floor live.

Let me put this another way.

You have a child.
The child goes to school.
The child knows the material.
You know it.
The teacher knows it.
The child fails the test.
Should that child be promoted?

If the answer is no, then why argue when the same situation occurs in a martial arts school?
If the answer is yes, do you go to the school and argue with the teacher when they hold the child back?


Some people are getting upset, yet are failing to see the larger picture.
I asked what your highest tested rank was.
Every art and organization has different standards. There is a point where the learning stops, and the perfecting or mastery begins.
One would hope that one is at least as good at 8th as they were at 5th.
That 10 years from now you will be more polished and efficient than you were 10 years ago.

I am not condemning anyone for stripes.
Just if they put on bought or traded rank.
My own rank and training is irrelevant. I have claimed neither on this site, other than "Master".


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## terryl965 (Jan 17, 2007)

Just if they put on bought or traded rank

Well I bought mine for 39.95 plus tax when I passed my test, just kidding.
Master as you put why can you not just answer the question about your own rank and who you was trained by. It would give some credit to what you have to say, in my years of training 40 plus I know when most people skit the issue they are normanally hiding something. Not saying you are but you are being evasive about point blank question.


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## The Master (Jan 17, 2007)

Originally Posted by The Master  
Oh, and to any "sokes" who will argue that they were examined by a board of their peers/seniors, I have 2 simple questions. 1-Has anyone ever failed the test?

Originally Posted by Kacey
Yes.

Kacey, I reread an earlier post of yours. That wasn't what I was referring to when I said video testing. I was referring to the trend of rank-mills to take a large check and a video test in order to "award" grandmaster or "founder" or "soke" status. Soke is as most know, an abused Japanese word usually used by half-rate martial artists when they can't cut it in a legit school and open their own "system".

Legit schools may use it in certain situations. Legit schools also fail people.
I am unaware of any soke board that has ever failed to "recognize" someone once the check has cleared. I have asked around, and no one I have asked here are aware of any either.  I would be interested in hearing of one that actually does have standards other than if the check clears.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 17, 2007)

I understand where you are coming from.  I have been teaching non stop for the past 14 years 13 on my own for the most part.  I have not worked a regular full time job ever because I have either taught full time or have owned my own business that allowed me to teach 20+ hours a week.  I now have opened a full time school and I am teaching 6 days a week and training on my own also.  Note the dojo opens at 11am m-f and 9am on saturday until 5pm.  I understand dedication and hard work to get rank advancement.  But I also understand that people incure costs when getting promotions through associations.  To me thats not the same as just buying the rank.  I have been in martial arts for over 22 years and I have loved every minute of it along with the blood sweat and tears.  This includes training in Karate, Ju Jitsu and some Kobudo.  

Now do I have issues with diploma mills?  Oh yeah I do.  My testing fees in my school are $20 up 4th Kyu then it is $25.  My shodan testing fees are high but it barely covers costs.  Certificate, assoc dues and recognition, and a embroidered belt from Okinawa.  These places that charge $500 for a 5th dan with no resume presented drives me crazy.  Or these guys that claim sokeship with no backing or they buy it.  I founded my system and have recently been officially recognized as the founder and awarded the title of soke of Seijitsu Shin Do - Karate Do.  But my students know me as Sensei or Sensei Brandon only.  They are taught the way I was taught and they work hard for their rank.  I admit I allowed one promotion to go through when the student should have failed but I admit it came back to bite me and I won't ever allow it to happen again.

My point is there is no reason to come out and slam these people it does not do any good at all.  Worry about your school and your students, make them top grade.  Top grade martial arts makes the school legitimate, nothing else.


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## grydth (Jan 17, 2007)

The training and the experiences were of infinitely more value than any symbol I ever got.

All my Tai Chi instructor (Ken Nichols) ever awarded me after a test was a small statue..... but getting by that hurdle opened up the door to learning much more..... and since he had the good sense to turn the review into a major exercise in humility, I have trained much harder after that test.

For some years I had an Iaido instructor, Bob Poresky, who didn't use rank. But he was one of the best teachers I have ever had for anything. I learned to use the katana my father, a Marine Captain, brought back from the Pacific War.

I recall literally being beaten within an inch of my life on a green belt test at a kenpo dojo run by Al Dutton circa 1980. These were the full contact sparring days, and he told you up front that if you slacked they would pound you into the ground. I can still remember watching the blood and sweat drip while I waited for the result. More importantly, the skills and toughness I picked up from Sensei Dutton would save my life a few short years later.... 

I don't have any great belts from the martial arts - just an enriched (and preserved) life...... and you know, that's enough.


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## Blindside (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> No disrespect was meant towards any legitimate people.
> Who have I disrespected?
> I haven't named any names.
> So I fail to see why there is hostility towards me.
> ...


 
I think this is the problem.  Your original question you asked 





> What is your current rank, and when was the last test you stepped on a floor and showed your metal to a senior or panel of peers?


 
And when questioned about your own rank you simply say Master (actually Mastre, which sounds Portuguese), and that your tester is deceased.  You are correct, while you answered the question you were asked, you did not answer the question you posed.  It was also an opportunity to give a little background about yourself, and perhaps show why you had brought this topic up in the first place.  The distinct lack of it seemed like you were avoiding any discussion about yourself.

So I'll repose your own question to you: "What is your current rank and when was the last test you stepped on a floor and showed your metal to a senior or panel of peers?  And I'll add my own question; "what style do you study."  I'm just curious, information about me is on my profile.

Lamont


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## Haze (Jan 17, 2007)

Originally Posted by Haze  
My instructor is always telling me I need to test for higher rank. My reply,,,," If you think I deserve it, then promote me."



shesulsa said:


> Hm. Well ... in a TMA I can see where the attitude might keep you from getting promoted. :idunno:



My instructor knows my attitude and it's not what you have implied. I've known my instructor for about 20 yrs. I know my place in the line. This is said to him in private. I have no need to prove myself to anyone at this stage of my life. No need for more rank. Knowledge is all I'm after.


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## Steel Tiger (Jan 17, 2007)

wade said:


> Go to www.usakarate.org and go to the link page if ya wanna see something interesting. They will register you as an individual member and also give you BB rank all the way up to master for a very reasonable price be it Karate, Taekwondo, Jujitsu are what ever. If at anytime you think your own system does not respect you nor give you due credit for what you have done this is the place to go. Then when questions like who tested you and where you tested and what your rank is (here it is $100 per Dan, all the way up to 10th), well then you can give them an honest answer. Pardon any misspelled words, it's hard to type this while I am still laughing so hard about it. SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, don't beat each other up, the answer is right here.......................:mst:.


 
Excellent, I've been thinking about learning some Jujitsu, Karate, Taekwondo, but what's the point if I'm not a 5 or 6 dan?


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## James Kovacich (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> My own rank and training is irrelevant. I have claimed neither on this site, other than "Master".


Master of what? A "recognized" traditional style? Your own style? If you can't answer the questions you ask. Then why ask?

You should rethink your thoughts as to what your MOTIVES are AND if you "really" know what you "think" you know.

You might get more respect if you filled out your profile.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 17, 2007)

_My instructor knows my attitude and it's not what you have implied. I've known my instructor for about 20 yrs. I know my place in the line. This is said to him in private. I have no need to prove myself to anyone at this stage of my life. No need for more rank. Knowledge is all I'm after._

At the shcool I attend, our iunstructor won't test us until he knows that we can pass the test so that's know big deal.  But then the test tends to be grueling.  He says "I already know you can do what's required, now it's about character and heart and determination and spirit".  The test is not about knowing the material, it's about have the strength of will and desire to survive the test.

Nobody wears belts in class, and nobody has to test if hey just want to train.  All he uses the belts for is to know "what are you training on now"  Heck, I don't even have a belt for the class (although I've passed the tests).  But if you haven't taken the time to test, it does limit some of what you can progress on with.


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## shesulsa (Jan 17, 2007)

Haze said:


> My instructor knows my attitude and it's not what you have implied. I've known my instructor for about 20 yrs. I know my place in the line. This is said to him in private. I have no need to prove myself to anyone at this stage of my life. No need for more rank. Knowledge is all I'm after.


With all due respect, I haven't implied anything - the :idunno: smiley indicates that I cannot possibly know your specific situation.  I'm glad you and your instructor have an understanding.


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## Dave Leverich (Jan 17, 2007)

wade said:


> Dave, I got my 1st in 1970 so as you can see I have just been shooting up through the ranks.................................. . I figure at the rate I'm going I'll see my 7th about the time I turn 70.



Hehe, my dad has a quote for where I was in 1970...
bouncing ball to ball 

Born in 71, we're speed demons of rank heh.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 17, 2007)

In awnser to the original post, my highest earned rank is sixth dan. I spent a year working directly on it with my weight training, cardio, nutrition and martial arts training being directly monitored and journaled. My testing was five days and five nights w/ very little sleep or food along the same format as BUDS "hell week". We also had fun things like Native American sweat lodges and team work drills at high altitudes.

Curriculum that I had to master included 14-boxing defenses and counters, 7-double stick strikes, 6-stick and kick combos, kickboxing pattern, kickboxing combinations, 12-corner block and counter, lock and block stick, lock and block stick and knife,stick flow, counter w/ the flow, counter against the flow, 9-count sinawalli, redondo, 5-knife disarms, knife against knife (electric shock knife), knife counter and thrust, CDT gun disarms, Bo staff fighting form, grappling defenses, NHB-MMA fighting pattern, Choo Moo 4, free sparring boxing, free sparring kickboxing, free sparring grappling, free sparring NHB-MMA, adrenal stress challenge, and our system's teaching methods. 

My judges included my instructors, KJN Ernie Reyes and KJN Tony Thompson (7th dan-which ids the highest rank in our system), also a Hapkido 9th dan for that portion of the test, and UFC veterans Bob Cook and Frank Shamrock (5x UFC champ) for the grappling and NHB portions of the test. Also some of the Fairtex instructors, including "Woodman" and "Dr. Knees" (i'm not even going to try to mangle the spelling of their real names), as well as former ISKA world champions Jean Claude Leuwer (spelling?) and Javier Mendez for the kickboxing.

On another note, though "the Master" is not very forthcoming on his own experiences and credentials, I do see where he is coming from. There are FAR too many people who claim rank that is either "bought" or cross ranked. Look on some websites of the "soke" organizations or different associations that will cross rank each other. IMO, it can damage the public image of what the rest of us have worked hard for for decades. I remember a case a few years back when an investigative reporter in Florida sent in a certification for fifth dan for her dog to the World Black Belt Bureau and then she showed that for a $50 fee, her dog Rex (using her last name)was issued a fifth degree master's certificate.


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## Kacey (Jan 17, 2007)

The Master said:


> Which soke board was it?


ITF TKD doesn't have soke boards.  Since we are now unaffiliated with any international organization, all of the testing instructors were from our organization or other organizations with which we are affiliated and with whom we share the same style; the most recent test board (IV Dan) consisted of 2 VI Dans and an VIII Dan, as I said.



The Master said:


> But you were on the floor, and demonstrated your skill and spirt each time you set foot on there. You didn't get promoted because you had perfect attendance, or a nice smile, or bought the GM lunch.


 How do you know I don't do those things, and they don't have some bearing?  How one acts outside the dojang is as important - and in some ways more important - than how one acts inside.  In terms of what type of person one is, how one acts outside the dojang is _more_ important - _much more_ important



The Master said:


> How one deals with failure, is also a test. There is a difference between the "brainfart" and the "never knew it in the first place".  The instructor who knows their students well enough to know the difference is a good one, in my not so humble opinion.


 I believe I said that.



The Master said:


> I am what I am.  http://dict.die.net/master/


Arrogant?  Self-righteous?  I am not usually quite that judgmental, but your statements, and the method in which you make them, leave little else in the way interpretation.  Too bad you find yourself unwilling (or perhaps unable) to walk the walk as well as you talk the talk; else, you would answer the question you posed with greater detail than "An interesting question. My rank, is Mastre. The tester is no longer with us."  And no, I did not follow the link you provided; it's late, and I'm tired, and if you are not willing to provide the information openly, I see no reason why I should ferret it out of your site.  Your choice, your credibility that suffers.


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## matt.m (Jan 17, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Ok I'm one of those people with the stripes on my belt, so what? I can tell you this I never ask or begged for my stripes and when I get ask a straight forward question I can answer it without dodging around corners. I find everything you have said when ask a question to be disrespectful and down right rude toward some highly qualify people on this forum. Why hide who and what you are if you are of any important to anybody elses training and have been training and your Instructor is decease than why not say. I tell people who I have trained with and I;m proud of the poeple that have given me far more than I could ever give them.
> 
> A master of what duck and dodge.
> 
> ...


 
Terry,

I agree.  You do understand that it takes a ton of aggravation to get this mans blood pressure up.  All I can say is "No good."  Hey btw, if someone higher than you bestowed a rank or title unto you then how are you different than anyone else.

Again, I am and have never bragged that I have skill.  I let my techniques and attitudes show and speak for themselves.  However, when taking my blue belt test I crashed knee brace to opposite leg knee cap.  It swelled up like a grapefruit.  I went to the back, wrapped it and reapplied my other leg brace.  That is correct, I wear one on each leg.

Did my side kick suffer after that accident?  Yep, sure did.  Did I quit and everyone expected me too and no one would have thought any less of me?  No, I hung in there and did what was requested the rest of the test.

Along with what Kacey said, I agree wholeheartedly and completely.


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## Cirdan (Jan 18, 2007)

The Master said:


> So, I have to ask this highly charged question:
> What is your current rank, and when was the last test you stepped on a floor and showed your metal to a senior or panel of peers?


 
Still a lowly kyu student here. I tested for blue belt in Wado Ryu last summer and will test for green in Ju Jutsu in a few days. I also have a 5th kyu in kenjutsu from some limited training with the TSKSR. All tests done in front of a panel of peers.

I don`t care that much about rank, just enjoying my journey in the arts. I do constantly try to improve tough. Gradings to me is a way of pressure testing your skills as well as your will. However I got no problem with those who hand our rank based on preformance in the dojo.


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## MJS (Jan 18, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Random Side note: What does sweating on ONE DAY at a test have to do with anything? Training should involve the "blood sweat and tears" over a period of time so one day and a test is really miniscule on the grand scale. If an instructor has seen you sweat and bleed in front of him/her for a certain period time (whatever their standards are) and they feel you are ready for a belt (whatever their standards are) what does a formal test have to say that the last few months and/or years working with you didn't already say? Nothing in my opinion, it's just a formality.
> 
> With that said I've tested for every belt I've ever earned. And here are some of my current stats..
> 
> ...


 
The OP was kind of open-ended, so its possible The Master could be referring to the same thing you just mentioned.  I agree with you though James.  Every time I go to class, I do my best to give it my all.  While I still put everything into those panel tests, the real test is what you've done up until that test day.  The actual test can also be viewed as a 'show' of what you've already done.

Mike


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## Cris (Jan 18, 2007)

I'm a 10th dan in hung lo and we do our belt tests in "pop quiz" style. When your teacher thinks your ready he sends out a few students to ambush you on the street  seriously though, that'd be a neat way to do a test


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## Haze (Jan 19, 2007)

I can see what Master is saying. There are alot of rank sellers aout there and prices may vary. 

Anything you want for $25 http://www.icmaua.com/

Even Founder Certificates that give you the title "Soke"

Anyone have one of these from the ICMAUA?
Don;t try and hide now, you know who you are!


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 19, 2007)

Haze said:


> I can see what Master is saying. There are alot of rank sellers aout there and prices may vary.
> 
> Anything you want for $25 http://www.icmaua.com/
> 
> ...


I signed up with them for free but never paid anything for certifcates and such.  I in fact don't even keep in contact with them now that I figured them out.  Glad I didn't waste any money.


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## searcher (Jan 19, 2007)

I currently hold a VI Dan in Chito-ryu and a V Dan in Okinawan Kobudo.   I hold Dan rank in TKD, but it is not my highest rank.   To give you an idea of what happens for our rank tests, it is not uncommon for there to be some broken bones, though nothing major.   The tests last an average of 6 mos and are extremely difficult.   There is always and overewhelming amount of physical training and material to cover.   One of my instructors is a old school blood, sweat, and tears kinda guy.   We work our butts off to get where we are going.


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## exile (Jan 19, 2007)

searcher said:


> I currently hold a VI Dan in Chito-ryu and a V Dan in Okinawan Kobudo.   I hold Dan rank in TKD, but it is not my highest rank.   To give you an idea of what happens for our rank tests, it is not uncommon for there to be some broken bones, though nothing major.   The tests last an average of 6 mos and are extremely difficult.   There is always and overewhelming amount of physical training and material to cover.   One of my instructors is a old school blood, sweat, and tears kinda guy.   We work our butts off to get where we are going.



Just out of curiosity, do the occasional bone-breaks happen in all of your MAs? And if not, which one(s) can you count on them happening in most frequently? 

I'm also curious about what kind of breaks are involvedhard for me to imagine a break that wasn't serious; I take it you mean something like a fracture where there's not much to do except let it heal on its own...? Are they mostly incurred during sparring (as I'd imagine, but best not take anything for granted...) ?


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 19, 2007)

Only breaks I have ever experienced are noses, fingers and toes.  Fingers and toes are the worst.


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## exile (Jan 19, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Only breaks I have ever experienced are noses, fingers and toes.  Fingers and toes are the worst.



I broke a hand on a three-board fist break two Xmases ago, one I'd done many times before with no problem, because my fist was slightly misaligned. Had to wear a splint for four months, and am now very gunshy about fist breaks. So the notion `broken bone' makes me wince; I have a hard time picturing one that _isn't_ a bad one...


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 19, 2007)

Yeah I have heard of broken hands but never had a one or had a student break a hand.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 19, 2007)

Kwan Jang said:


> My judges included my instructors, KJN Ernie Reyes and KJN Tony Thompson (7th dan-which ids the highest rank in our system), also a Hapkido 9th dan for that portion of the test, and UFC veterans Bob Cook and Frank Shamrock (5x UFC champ) for the grappling and NHB portions of the test. Also some of the Fairtex instructors, including "Woodman" and "Dr. Knees" (i'm not even going to try to mangle the spelling of their real names), as well as former ISKA world champions Jean Claude Leuwer (spelling?) and Javier Mendez for the kickboxing.
> 
> .


My Inayan Instructor is also a student of your Seniors. I'd like to ask why bring in other judges if they are not your trainers. I'm not knocking it because I know other people who have done that recently but they were scrutinized by they're peers.

I'm just curious as to why your trainer in those areas did not test you. On a side note. I've seen a lot of Ernies students classes and where it is today is a step up from what I see of TKD in general.


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## jdinca (Jan 19, 2007)

Currently 3rd degree brown. We test in instructor workouts in front of our GM and a number of BBs several times a month.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 19, 2007)

In awnser to akja's question, most of these guys DO train with us on a regular basis. Bob and Frank have trained with us on an average of 2-3x per week for 7-8 years(+) when they are not on the road. Jean Claude is now a student of KJN Ernie; Javier's American Kickboxing Academy used to be located in one of our schools (which Frank is/was a partner in-I'm not sure on the current status on that and Bob runs the MMA program). Also, the Fairtex guys come over to play quite a bit. I moved out of state years ago, but still come back 2-4 weeks out of the year to train, so I am not always up on who's doing what.

Out of curiosity, who is your escrima instructor? Depending on what era he is from, I may know him. I trained quite a bit with Mike and Jeff Elliott back in their West Coast Escrima Society days in the early '80's. In fact, Jeff and I used to stay after class and train together for several hours at the old Milpitas/Berryessa school when I was in my late teens.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 19, 2007)

Kwan Jang said:


> In awnser to akja's question, most of these guys DO train with us on a regular basis. Bob and Frank have trained with us on an average of 2-3x per week for 7-8 years(+) when they are not on the road. Jean Claude is now a student of KJN Ernie; Javier's American Kickboxing Academy used to be located in one of our schools (which Frank is/was a partner in-I'm not sure on the current status on that and Bob runs the MMA program). Also, the Fairtex guys come over to play quite a bit. I moved out of state years ago, but still come back 2-4 weeks out of the year to train, so I am not always up on who's doing what.
> 
> Out of curiosity, who is your escrima instructor? Depending on what era he is from, I may know him. I trained quite a bit with Mike and Jeff Elliott back in their West Coast Escrima Society days in the early '80's. In fact, Jeff and I used to stay after class and train together for several hours at the old Milpitas/Berryessa school when I was in my late teens.


Jon Ward is under Tony Thompson and I also Train under my wifes 
Uncle Chevo Macias who was certified by Ray Subega in 1977 and Ray was certified by Mike Inay sometime before that, before Inayan Eskrima is what it grew into being. Chevo and Ray have their own system now called Macias-Subega Fighting Systems, a whittled down sysem of Eskrima and Kenpo.

I know Frank casually and Ernie knows me by face as do alot of your people.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 19, 2007)

I used to be an assistant instructor for Jon's class when he was a kid. I've heard nothing but high praise for the teaching ability and skill of the man he has grown into.


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## searcher (Jan 20, 2007)

exile said:


> Just out of curiosity, do the occasional bone-breaks happen in all of your MAs? And if not, which one(s) can you count on them happening in most frequently?
> 
> I'm also curious about what kind of breaks are involvedhard for me to imagine a break that wasn't serious; I take it you mean something like a fracture where there's not much to do except let it heal on its own...? Are they mostly incurred during sparring (as I'd imagine, but best not take anything for granted...) ?


 

The most common are broken noses and ribs.   We do, however, have an occasional broken hand or arm.  We have even had a couple of ACL tears during testing.   Yes, they are most common during the sparring portion, but there has been a few that had cracked ribs during Niseishi testing(very similar to Sanchin testing) from the use of a shinai.   This is common in the Chito-ryu school, not very common in the TKD school.   The TKD school has mostly bruises and a few cuts.  TKD is not quite as brutal, as far as injuries go.    I actually go to the "brutal" school just for some training and for tests.   I have tried to keep injuries to a minimum at my own school.    I do have those 18-36 YO guys that always want to try and kill each other, but they are all a bunch of freaks.

Hope this answers your question.


----------



## James Kovacich (Jan 20, 2007)

Kwan Jang said:


> I used to be an assistant instructor for Jon's class when he was a kid. I've heard nothing but high praise for the teaching ability and skill of the man he has grown into.


So we are brothers! I bought my videos from Cory and he was very respectful. The whole clan has been a great experience.
Take care, James


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## grydth (Jan 20, 2007)

Haze said:


> I can see what Master is saying. There are alot of rank sellers aout there and prices may vary.
> 
> Anything you want for $25 http://www.icmaua.com/
> 
> ...



Never heard about this outfit until I just read about it here. 

Are they in fact selling rank - as I have seen done elsewhere - or are they merely giving you a wall paper membership certificate based upon what somebody claims to already be? While many would not view that as kosher, either, to me it is a much lesser sin.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 20, 2007)

grydth said:


> Never heard about this outfit until I just read about it here.
> 
> Are they in fact selling rank - as I have seen done elsewhere - or are they merely giving you a wall paper membership certificate based upon what somebody claims to already be? While many would not view that as kosher, either, to me it is a much lesser sin.


I personally presented my resume and a copy of my current rank certifications when I signed up originally a year ago and there was no membership fee which was nice.


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## exile (Jan 20, 2007)

searcher said:


> The most common are broken noses and ribs.   We do, however, have an occasional broken hand or arm.  We have even had a couple of ACL tears during testing.   Yes, they are most common during the sparring portion, but there has been a few that had cracked ribs during Niseishi testing(very similar to Sanchin testing) from the use of a shinai.   This is common in the Chito-ryu school, not very common in the TKD school.   The TKD school has mostly bruises and a few cuts.  TKD is not quite as brutal, as far as injuries go.    I actually go to the "brutal" school just for some training and for tests.   I have tried to keep injuries to a minimum at my own school.    I do have those 18-36 YO guys that always want to try and kill each other, but they are all a bunch of freaks.
> 
> Hope this answers your question.



Thanks for the info, Jon. Some of the TKD people I know here would _love_ to be able to inflict bone breaks on each other during sparring, but it's a different kind of sparringcontrolled structured streetfight training, nothing at all like WTF competitionso it's probably not comparable to what most TKD dojangs do.

Noses and ribs heal, or can be put right. Joints, well, that's another story...

It's useful to be reminded, from time to time, that when you train MA, you're training for combat, and you can get _hurt_ in combat, and the more effective your training, the greater the odds of getting hurt. People tend to forget this.


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## searcher (Jan 21, 2007)

exile said:


> controlled structured streetfight training, nothing at all like WTF competitionso it's probably not comparable to what most TKD dojangs do.
> 
> Noses and ribs heal, or can be put right. Joints, well, that's another story....


 
I don't train WTF, but my cousin does.   We are a more traditional TKD school.


I hear ya on the bones vs. joints.   I have seen some things get pretty crazy and I am glad that nothing more has happened.   In the Chito-ryu school My Wife had to fight for her life during the entire duration of her BB test.   We eventually decided it was best for us to go our own way.   The only drawback is that I still have to go there for the training and testing I mentioned in earlier posts.   That particular instructor is constantly trying to get his prize lackys to try and knock me out.   I am just glad I train as hard as I do.   It makes for an interesting time.


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## MasterWright (Jan 21, 2007)

I had to wait 3 years from third dan to be eligible to test for my fourth, My third dan was submitted two months early (22 months)and was rejected, I didn't see that one for another 7 months. 

Perhaps your Master was able to have it forced from the Kukkiwon .

Master Wright-Guelph Olympic Taekwondo
Ontario Canada


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## exile (Jan 21, 2007)

searcher said:


> I don't train WTF, but my cousin does.   We are a more traditional TKD school.
> 
> 
> I hear ya on the bones vs. joints.   I have seen some things get pretty crazy and I am glad that nothing more has happened.   In the Chito-ryu school My Wife had to fight for her life during the entire duration of her BB test.   We eventually decided it was best for us to go our own way.   The only drawback is that I still have to go there for the training and testing I mentioned in earlier posts.   That particular instructor is constantly trying to get his prize lackys to try and knock me out.   I am just glad I train as hard as I do.   It makes for an interesting time.



Hmmmm... something sounds wrong there, searcher... why the deliberate effort to hurt you? Sounds like some personal vendetta on that instructor's part, or some macho posturingyou know what I'm talking about, `Cobra Kai' sort of thing. 

I view that as really unethical and unprofessional. Who needs to have a time that's as `interesting' as that? I've no problem at all with very hard-edged realistic training, where instead of tori and uke you have street assailant and defender, and you train hard effective oyo based on bunkai which take into account instinctive reactions and assume a totally noncompliant adversaryto me, that's what SD is all about. But what you're describing sounds very different from that... there's an element malice there, methinks.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 21, 2007)

Going back to the original topic, this thread reminded me of a website that I had visited before. There is a group called the United States Martial Arts Association and they have a black belt registry on their site that lists dozens of individuals as having multiple tenth dans. I saw a few on there with tenth degrees in over ten seperate systems. All right everybody, let's all sing this to the "Barney theme song" ...."I promote you, you promote me, we're all fat and happy 10th degrees...". OK, second chorus, only the 10th dans under thirty years old sing.

In fairness, I have seen some well known and respected martial artists listed on this registry, but this is almost as bad as the diploma mill that issued a fifth dan to a dog.


----------



## Brandon Fisher (Jan 21, 2007)

USMA is ok they do have some things that make you scratch your head but when you talk to the head of the organization he does not himself promote people that don't deserve the rank. In fact he told me I could claim 10th dan because I founded my system but he did not recomend it and suggested only 6th dan which was my next rank.  This is based solely on my time in the arts, the things I have done and my experience.

The bad thing is that these organizations require you to present your resume and copies of your rank certificates before they issue anything, but whose to say the applicant didn't falsify their resume.  I know of people of done this and get away with it because there is no way of proving otherwise.

USMA
EUSAIMAA
AKIA
ICMAU
USKA
PKC

All these organizations have rank reognition but whos to say they always get 100% honest resumes.  Personally I could care less what someone else does, if they can be dishonest and live with themselves fine but I can't.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 21, 2007)

Kwan Jang said:


> In fairness, I have seen some well known and respected martial artists listed on this registry, but this is almost as bad as the diploma mill that issued a fifth dan to a dog.




Sometimes they approach a family member of a respected Martial Artist to add to their list. This makes the family think they are doing something nice for the person and they get them on their list to help legitimize them and their actions.


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## Blindside (Jan 21, 2007)

Kwan Jang said:


> Going back to the original topic, this thread reminded me of a website that I had visited before. There is a group called the United States Martial Arts Association and they have a black belt registry on their site that lists dozens of individuals as having multiple tenth dans. I saw a few on there with tenth degrees in over ten seperate systems. All right everybody, let's all sing this to the "Barney theme song" ...."I promote you, you promote me, we're all fat and happy 10th degrees...". OK, second chorus, only the 10th dans under thirty years old sing.


 
I had to check, but they are still issuing or "recognizing" black belts in boxing.  And the funny thing is I don't recognize any of those guys named (6th degree in boxing) as winning, well, anything.

Complete BS.

Lamont


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## Haze (Jan 21, 2007)

I am a member of the United States Martial Arts Association. I accepted rank recognition from them as Shodan. 

They then "evaluated my situation" and said that seeing that I had not formally tested in several years that they could promote me to Nidan and back date it so that I would immediatly qualify for Sandan and possibly even Yondan and all I had to do was come up with the registration fees of roughly $450. All promotions were to based on time in grade so back dating would get me up to where I should be.

Sounded like a money maker to me. So I am a lifetime member but have not accepted any promotion in rank from them.

I am also a member of
Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate Do Goshinkai (rank tested for and recieved Shodan under Shihan Frank Van Lentten)
ISOK - International Society of Okinawan/Japanese Karate (recognized as shodan)
WMAA - World Martial Artists Association (hold no rank with them)


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 21, 2007)

Yeah I didn't back date anything on karate background.  My 6th dan (Seijitsu Shin Do) was as of 1/1/07.  I don't agree wiht back dating but there was rank I never recieved because the instructor I had claimed one thing but never issued rank in it namly Ju Jitsu which I began in '84 but never recieved formal ranking in it.  So my rank I got from USMA is Nidan after 22 years of practicing Ju Jitsu.

I went and looked at the registry also and didn't understand the Boxing thing either.


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## searcher (Jan 21, 2007)

exile said:


> Hmmmm... something sounds wrong there, searcher... why the deliberate effort to hurt you? Sounds like some personal vendetta on that instructor's part, or some macho posturingyou know what I'm talking about, `Cobra Kai' sort of thing.
> 
> I view that as really unethical and unprofessional. Who needs to have a time that's as `interesting' as that? I've no problem at all with very hard-edged realistic training, where instead of tori and uke you have street assailant and defender, and you train hard effective oyo based on bunkai which take into account instinctive reactions and assume a totally noncompliant adversaryto me, that's what SD is all about. But what you're describing sounds very different from that... there's an element malice there, methinks.


 

I could not agree more with you on the unethical and very unprofessional.   He def. has some issue with me that are from something I can't figure out.   I know that I don't fit his idea of what a MAist should be and now that I am out on my own it seems to have become worse.   I know that back in the early 90's when the UFC was getting started he had soem problem with the training that I received as a kid from my dad.   Whatever the problem, it is never boring when I go in to train.


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## exile (Jan 21, 2007)

searcher said:


> Whatever the problem, it is never boring when I go in to train.



That kind of excitement, _no_ one needs. Searcher, maybe you should be looking for a new dojo... you and yours don't need that kind of crap. Just my two cents' worth, but I hate it when people get abused because of other people's personality defects....


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## James Kovacich (Jan 22, 2007)

Rank is a tricky subject when it comes down to there are many martial artists out there that have many years training, even over 20 years and never received a black belt. Some of them are teaching and want to be recognized. I don't think that they should have to start over in a new school, learning a new system when what they really need is support and guidance.

Then theres the 1 & 2 year black belts that are not likely to have the skill level as those that bounced around between schools with a lot of time in. 

My wifes uncles 1st degree black belt in Kenpo and Eskrima (in 1977) came from West Valley Karate. How does one authenticate that his cert is legit? I can tell you that he told me his instructor only promoted him to 1st degree (with 9 years TIG) because his instructor was only a 2nd degree Kenpo and Guro in Eskrima and on his own at that time.

His instructor Ray Subega was a student of Sam Brown in Kenpo and they were both students of Ralph Castellanos. Ralph is nearly impossible to trace his students and Ray is not listed under Sam Brown on the Kenpo family tree. Ray is one of the earliest instructors promoted by Mike Inay in Inayan Eskrima back in the '70's.

My wifes uncle was also Mikes student but was promoted by Ray. That makes him technically 2nd gen instructor under Mike but won't appear on the Inayan tree. 

Many experienced martial artists slip through the cracks. There is a need for professional organizations that offer support but the "hollow federations" seem to be running rampant and making a bad name for "all," even the good orgs.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been covered. Until a year ago, I had never heard that one could receive advanced BB rank (legitimatly)without testing for it. I'd heard of the "magic plane" where you board it one rank & depart another (higher) rank, however.

Before I started my TKD school last year, I trained w/ & helped teach in a karate program under a 7th Dan. When I told him of my desire to test for my 3rd Dan in TKD he looked at me & said, "You've got a great atititude, are a good teacher & you have solid skills, I'll give a 3rd Dan." He wasn't kidding! I thanked him, but declined. I knew little about his art. It didn't seem right to me.

A few moths ago, he stopped teaching his class & gave it over to his 3rd Dan assistant. Before he left, he made him a 4th Dan. No test, no cert., nothing. The 7th Dan has zero respect for this guy, but he thought it only fair that he give him the rank when he gave him the class. 

I'd never run across promotion like that before. My experience has always been that I need to test for what I receive. I realize this situation is out of the norm, & that most folks test for their rank.


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## Blindside (Jan 22, 2007)

Iceman,

When I did BJJ (at least at our school) there wasn't a test, when your instructor thought you were ready he said "here put this on."  Of course in BJJ it is pretty easy to gauge your level, if you can hang with the blues you should be a blue and so on.  

Testing in a large group is only necessary if there is a big disconnect between student and instructor.  I can see the need if you are learning over a distance, but if you are out on the mats regularly under an instuructor, he/she should know what you've got.  

Lamont


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## IcemanSK (Jan 22, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Iceman,
> 
> When I did BJJ (at least at our school) there wasn't a test, when your instructor thought you were ready he said "here put this on." Of course in BJJ it is pretty easy to gauge your level, if you can hang with the blues you should be a blue and so on.
> 
> ...


 
I understand what you're saying, & I can agree if an instructor is that in tuned with his students. This was a case of an instructor wanting to retire & not set his students a drift. With this particular guy,(new 4th Dan) I've known him for nearly 2 years & I've yet to see him take his thumbs out of his belt to demonstrate anything to his students. When his instructor taught forms (by demonstrating them) this guy didn't participate. He just stood there w/ his thumbs in his belt. He wouldn't even correct students' form. He comes pulls up in full uniform & drives home the same way. But never breaks a sweat. The 7th Dan worked his butt off teaching!

It should be in an instructor's manual under, "how not to teach." IMO


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## tradrockrat (Jan 22, 2007)

So I guess that the main point we're all agreeing with is that rank doesn't 
necessarily translate to skill or ability and that many of us have trained to some level of proficiency without any rank at all.

So if this is the case (and I most certainly agree it is), has ranking become irrelevant in todays world?


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## IcemanSK (Jan 22, 2007)

tradrockrat said:


> So I guess that the main point we're all agreeing with is that rank doesn't
> necessarily translate to skill or ability and that many of us have trained to some level of proficiency without any rank at all.
> 
> So if this is the case (and I most certainly agree it is), has ranking become irrelevant in todays world?


 
I think rank should be put in it's proper context. It denotes time in & attention to an art. Sadly, we've made it mostly about skill level. If I may translate to another fighting style for a minute (I think it translates well). Eddy Futch was a great boxing trainer well into his 80's. Could he fight at 80 like he could when he was young? Of course not. But he had tons of knowledge & the ability to impart it well. His protege' Freddy Roach is a young man (40's) & was a very tough fighter in his day. He now has Parkinson's syndrome (like Ali) but he too is a great trainer. If there were belts in boxing, they would both be masters.

Not all trainers w/ that amount of experience are/were that good. Heck, a lot of fighters (of many fighting sports) can't impart the wisdom they possess. But the time & attention they give to their craft should result in some recognition.

If we look at it that way for MA, it puts belt rank in prospective. IMO


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## Fluffy (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm a 5th Dan, tested for it in front of Grand Master Jack Pierce (Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do), Grand Master Andy Apho (Tang Soo Do) and Grand Master Clint Robinson (Taekwondo)


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 22, 2007)

On average lets say this

3 years to 1st dan
2 years to 2nd Dan
3 years to 3rd dan
4 years to 4th Dan
5 Years to 5th Dan
*6 years to 6th Dan (23 Years to 6th Dan) *
7 years to 7th Dan
8 Years To 8th Dan
9 Years to 9th Dan
10 Years to 10th Dan

57 Years to 10th dan

But the most common practice from what I have seen is:
3 years to 1st Dan
2 Years to 2nd Dan
2 Years to 3rd Dan
3 Years to 4th Dan
4 years to 5th Dan
5 Years to 6th Dan
6 Years to 7th Dan
7 Years to 8th Dan
8 Years to 9th Dan
9 years to 10th Dan
49 Years to 10th Dan
Note the red mark where I am personally at in my training.

This assumes of course the person stays active in their training and teaching and does not retire.  Also that they have been able to train others to a rather high level of profiency over their career.

Does anyone disagree with this?  If so why?


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## searcher (Jan 22, 2007)

exile said:


> Searcher, maybe you should be looking for a new dojo... you and yours don't need that kind of crap.


 


I have been teaching on my own for over 10 years and I have been training in TKD for the past few years.   I have recently decided to go back to training in EPAK.   Problem is that I will only be able to work my TKD on my own due to class conflict.   My Wife now trains in Tai Chi and has dabled in other CMAs.   So we are good.


----------



## Carol (Jan 22, 2007)

Hey Brandon, I just wanted to first give you a BIG congratulations to your 6th Dan promotion!    



Brandon Fisher said:


> This assumes of course the person stays active in their training and teaching and does not retire. Also that they have been able to train others to a rather high level of profiency over their career.
> 
> Does anyone disagree with this? If so why?


 
I don't think it is just staying active in a system is enough for a dan promotion.  In many ways that is not progress, that is stagnancy.


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 22, 2007)

I agree with Carol, there are many systems in which time in grade seems to be the main factor, especially after a certain level(usually 5th dan). I agree that it (time) should be a minimum requirement, but the next level should require the candidate to grow and improve as part of the process. 

BTW, the time in grade for our schools are very similar to Brandon's, except we require 4 years for 1st and 6 years between 4th-
5th and 5th and 6th (minimum time of training at least 3x/week plus teaching requirements).


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## exile (Jan 22, 2007)

searcher said:


> I have been teaching on my own for over 10 years and I have been training in TKD for the past few years.   I have recently decided to go back to training in EPAK.   Problem is that I will only be able to work my TKD on my own due to class conflict.   My Wife now trains in Tai Chi and has dabled in other CMAs.   So we are good.



Glad to hear that. BTW, I'm interested in any impressions you might have about the similarities and differences between EPAK on the one hand and TKD on the other. I've always wondered about that, but very few people seem to cross-train between the two...


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 23, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Hey Brandon, I just wanted to first give you a BIG congratulations to your 6th Dan promotion!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it is just staying active in a system is enough for a dan promotion. In many ways that is not progress, that is stagnancy.


First thank you I appreciate that.

Ok now let me clarify what I meant by active I was quite tired last night when I got home from the dojo.  I feel that active doesn't mean just training and teaching.  I think it needs to take in consideration the special things you do.  For example I have taught at the Cleveland Sight Center for visually impaired and totally blind adults, I have taught at the local JCC working people iwth autism (spelling), and other mental disabilities.  I have worked with hearing impaired and learned disabled students all throughout my career.  I have given free common sense self defense courses at Ohio Northern University.  I have also taught various seminars at internaitonal gatherings and various other dojos.  These are things that help in promotion your dedication to the arts not just your art but the art.  I agree 100% on growth and improvment with Kwan Jang.  That is essential at all levels in my opinion.

I hope that helps describe better what I meant.

Now that I clarified please add your opinion?


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## IcemanSK (Jan 23, 2007)

I agree with Carol that time shouldn't be the only factor. Growth is a vital part of what should be included in anyone's desire to attain higher rank.


Congrats to you, Brandon! Well deserved, sir!


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 23, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> I agree with Carol that time shouldn't be the only factor. Growth is a vital part of what should be included in anyone's desire to attain higher rank.
> 
> 
> Congrats to you, Brandon! Well deserved, sir!


Thank you!!  

I guess I am just assuming people further their knowledge & training but I know that isn't always the case.


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## Sempai Jamie (Jan 23, 2007)

In my opinion the most important rank is white belt, because you need the courage to start something new. Which is often harder then it sounds.

As for testing all my students tests are based on how much they want the their next belt level. I see them every class and I know when they are ready for their next belt, but if I didn't work them hard in a belt test they wouldn't have the same appreciation / since of accomplishment.

As for Dan rankings I'm not sure that a test IS needed each time. When you start talking years between gradings and levels that may not even have syllabus to them, keeping active in the style is probably enough of a test.

As for my level, I'm currently a brown belt in Jiu-jitsu and my brown belt test was 2.5 hour long and I grappled for over an hour for it.

Jamie


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 23, 2007)

Jamie,
Good thoughts on the white belt.  Sounds like you have thought it out well.  Also glad to hear you worked so hard for the rank.  It does make it that much sweeter.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 23, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> On average lets say this
> 
> 3 years to 1st dan
> 2 years to 2nd Dan
> ...


 
So you have 23 years in? 10th dan is almost inpossible. What rank is your headmaster and how many years in does he have?

Overall, I think that is average but rank and belts are a relaitively new concept not more than 100 + or - years old given Kano created Judo and was the first to use the belt system. Funokoshi was a Master I think around the age of 20 and "recognized" by a Kendo organization.

What was the rank and TIG for Ryu Ryu Ko and Kanryo Higaonna? And what were the ranks and TIG for Shinjo Choken and Tode Sakugawa? They were all the foremost authorities of nearly all Karate and some will argue all. 

It seems we are stricter than our martial ancesters. Are we better?


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 23, 2007)

akja said:


> So you have 23 years in? 10th dan is almost inpossible. What rank is your headmaster and how many years in does he have?
> 
> Overall, I think that is average but rank and belts are a relaitively new concept not more than 100 + or - years old given Kano created Judo and was the first to use the belt system. Funokoshi was a Master I think around the age of 20 and "recognized" by a Kendo organization.
> 
> ...


 
Actually I am the headmaster of my system since I founded the school of thought.  However I truly believe one can not recreate the arts, only found schools of thought.  Under my first instructor is when it was originally founded only under another name.  He was a 10th dan and was the advisor and supervisoer to its creation.  A year ago he and I went separate ways for reasons I still don't know.

Now I have 2 main advisors for my system, both are 8th dan's with 40+ years in the martial arts.

Ok now the rank of the founders of karate jutsu (wasn't karate do whne it was founded) there was none.  Rank and status were not the issue nor was it even an option.  Are we better, well in some ways yes because experience over the years has made the arts better with age, however the flipside to that is no we are not.  To much flash in the arts today has taken way from its original intentions.  I agree the martial arts community is stricter today than ever before from what I have been able to tell not really.  Some organizations are not strict enough and others are to much so.  It really depends on the organization and situation.

As far as a 10th dan being almost impossible I don't under why that is.  However that is the furthest thing from my mind and least of my concerns.

Sorry I didn't understand what you were referring to when talking about TIG.

Hope that answeres your questions.


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## Blindside (Jan 23, 2007)

akja said:


> It seems we are stricter than our martial ancesters. Are we better?


 
Nope, just trying to slow down the blatant rank inflation.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 23, 2007)

Look at the guys who never held certain grades not even by paper.  I know of a guy who was promoted from 3rd dan to 8th dan then tested for a 4th dan with his own instructor one year later.  My old instructor did that.  Then 2 years later was promoted to 10th dan without ever holding a 9th dan. I know this was one of the issues between my old instructor and I.


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## terryl965 (Jan 23, 2007)

I believe rank only means two thing to the serious Martial Artist and that is one it really means nothing at all for you do not need it to be a true MA and two any true MA'ist only cares about it as an after thought.

I rarely care who holds what rank but rather who holds the true knowledge of there respected system.


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## Brad Dunne (Jan 23, 2007)

Nope, just trying to slow down the blatant rank inflation.

I don't think it could or would do any good. I often use this story to illustrate just how bad rank and obtaining it can be. At the time this took place, I was a 3rd Dan KKW and senior instructor at a school owned by a Korean Master. A new blue belt, who also was a young Korean, early to mid twenties, came into the dojang and I was told to show him all the hyungs up to and including 3rd Dan. About a month and a half went by, everyday training, 2 sessions and he didn't show up any longer. Didn't really think a whole lot about it until 6 months later at a tournament. This blue belt was now being introduced at the Masters table as a 4th Dan and every Master at the table was Korean and they all smiled and applauded and acknowledged his rank. All this was done with the blessings of the home office, I assume, for he was now running an affiliate school under my Masters banner and there were Kukkiwon certs on his wall. This is when I lost all respect for ranks and those that hide behind so-called legit organizations and bypass procedures, for the sake of taking care of one of their own, just to MAKE MONEY. There are so many weak and phoney instructors and masters and grand masters out there that it just makes the arts look sick. I know, a rant, but I thought it fit the subject.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 23, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Actually I am the headmaster of my system since I founded the school of thought. However I truly believe one can not recreate the arts, only found schools of thought. Under my first instructor is when it was originally founded only under another name. He was a 10th dan and was the advisor and supervisoer to its creation. A year ago he and I went separate ways for reasons I still don't know.
> 
> Now I have 2 main advisors for my system, both are 8th dan's with 40+ years in the martial arts.
> 
> ...


TIG is time in grade and I said 10th dan was nearly impossible because 57 years time in grade is nearly impossible. 

I'm not attacking you or your system. I'm just working with your examples and trying to show that their can't be standard.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 23, 2007)

I know you are not attacking me but it sure is making for a interesting discusssion and a very intelligent one at that.  I love conversations like this.  I agree a set standard is really difficult I personally believe it should be based on the person.  I have a student who is very intelligent and athletic from what I can see now he could potenitally make shodan in 2 - 2 1/2 years.  But thats not the norm by any means.  Look at me I have been in the arts since I was 7 now 30 I have not worked a full time job ever because of my dedication to the arts.  But can everyone do that?  No way I am lucky enough to have been able to run my own business since I was 20.

Just so ya know I took a look at your website.  I think you have aligned yourself with a very powerful organization under Hanshi Angel.  Good luck to you!!


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## wade (Jan 24, 2007)

Brad, it does happen, it's wrong but it does happen. This is a true story and in advance I want to tell every one that no I am not a raceist nor am I bashing Koreans. I was at a tournament a few years back and they had all the masters setting at the front of the gym. Well, all the round eyes were sitting on the floor below the stage. They were all masters of the local school system (this system has about 10 or more schools under their banner and are very successful in what they do). On the stage were all the KKW masters. Well, there I was, at the end of a line of about 20 Korean Masters. No, I am not a member of this system. Anyway, a couple of the Korean Masters were a little peaved because I was up there with them till they found I that I out ranked all of them. It was a small thing but I have to admit I sure did enjoy it. RHIP, and in situations like this I will take advantage of it. To every one else, I still go by Wade.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 24, 2007)

Wade,
Thats poetic justice.  Good story!!


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## Dave Leverich (Jan 24, 2007)

Hehehehe, Wade, Sir, you do rock


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## Balrog (Feb 11, 2007)

The Master said:


> So, I have to ask this highly charged question:
> What is your current rank, and when was the last test you stepped on a floor and showed your metal to a senior or panel of peers?



I'm currently a 5th Degree Black Belt.  I tested for rank in June of 2004.  I will be eligible in terms of time in rank to test for 6th Degree in June of 2009.


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## IWishToLearn (Feb 14, 2007)

My 2nd Degree in Yasashii Do and my 3rd in Kenpo.


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## TheArtofDave (Jan 11, 2008)

Wow reading this thread really makes me wish that the chaos in my life fueled me to be right up there with most of you. But things didn't really go that way. Of course I don't really care about rank training is what I'm most interested in.

That being said I'm currently a white belt in Pasaryu. However I'll be working on going through the system to black belt, and if I can get to 6th of 7th degree I'll be doing good. My goal is 8th though. In that system once you hit 9th you're a "Korean Master" and officially at instructor level but with it taking so much time and dedication to get that I'm setting my goals high but 7th will be realistic although I'll try to get to 9th and I've got plenty of time to do it as I'm 28 and I'm in no rush. The more I work my butt off, and understand the reasons the training works should I ever need it means more to me than hey here is a colored belt to show off.

As far as rank goes though if I get to blue belt, and the instructor tells me I should be a black belt even though it may delay my time of getting there I'd still prefer to go from blue belt to the next, and then to the next. I want to get as much out of it as I can. Its more rewarding to work for something, and as equally as rewarding later when looking back. So my goal right now is 8th degree. So wish me luck.

I'll let you know how it goes as soon as I begin my journey once again. Good luck to all in their formal training, or continuing their training.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 11, 2008)

WOW forgot about this thread. I posted way back after receiving my orange belt. Now my last test was for my blue belt. Way for physically and mentally demanding than my orange or purple belt tests. Even more so since I had a nasty cold and was worried about my knee. The test was about 2 hours about long, 15 minutes into it I was drained of energy,the cold really had a hold of me, but I pushed through it and passed. Now I have a really long road ahead of me...good thing blue is my favorite color 

B


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## pad256 (Jan 11, 2008)

1 dan in 2007 great test @6hrs long, hard physically and mentally but I enjoyed the punishment (the sick kempo mentality) almost like a right of passage, more like welcome to the family and now the fun really starts!


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## dancingalone (Jan 11, 2008)

I hold a nidan in Okinawan Goju-ryu and an ee dan in taekwondo.  Sankyu in aikido.  Tested in front of a board for all of those ranks.


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## Brian S (Jan 11, 2008)

The Master said:


> Long have I seen the arguments concerning rank on numerous discussion sites. Long have I seen the arguments concerning earned vs awarded vs cross ranking.
> 
> *Well, my opinion is simple. If you didn't sweat for it, it's not real.
> Someone saying 'You've been a 4th for 2 years, good job, here's your 5th' seems cheap to me. *Sending in your video tape some good-ole-boys sokeboard, moreso. I mean, has anyone ever sent their tape and cash in and NOT! gotten their promotion? Is someone with who has only sweat and bleed and felt the pain to 3 1st degree belts really suddenly qualified to buy themselves a grandmastership by mail order?
> ...


 
 I agree with the ranking through mail and video's, it's laughable.

 BUT, the part I have in bold just doesn't hold much water. Big deal if you have a formal test or not. The time spent in training between ranks IS the test IMO. The actual test is just a formality.


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## diamondbar1971 (Jan 12, 2008)

Mine was for 4th Black with a panel,  but a little story that some of you may find interesting. Way back in the covered wagon days (well it seems so sometimes) I was testing for my 1st Black and I  did my forms well, but during my match I switched styles and failed even though I won. When you are young and want to win, sometimes you do things that you don't think is wrong or bad, you just do it. At the time I was absolutely just devastated but things worked out as most things do.


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## Guardian (Jan 12, 2008)

*Tested and gained my Black Belt in 1985 and then my core group broke up (military duties) and I just trained from their on in and in 2002, I took a different direction into the Personal Protection ways.  Which have taken most of my time up now, still train in my core art, but not as much as I use to.*

*It's neat seeing what everyone has done and how they have progressed throughout their time.*


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## Traditionalist (Jan 12, 2008)

MJS said:


> I'll do my best to answer your question. If this was something honorary, personally, I wouldn't want it. Why would I want to accept a rank in something that I don't train in? Many arts, once you reach a certain rank, there is no physical test, per se, but instead its more of time in grade and what you've given back to the art. The person in this situation is actually doing something, giving something back, so in that case, I see nothing wrong with accepting the rank.
> 
> Mike


 
THis is similar in my school, which we have both Hapkido and TKD, the catch in our school is the highest student, besides the instructor in HKD is 2nd dan, I'm sure we'll have a physical test for 3rd dan but a lot of it is how your perform in class and all of the 2nd dans have classes of their own, so we are then essentially graded on our own classes and he is always grading us as students. It will be new territory for us and our instructor hasn't even talked about testing us for 3rd yet. I'm not sure how long our TKD tests before they no longer have to do a physical test. I could never take a honorary belt I would definitely have to privately give it back and explain why. I would rather fail a test and stay where I'm at then promote at some "Here's your belt" ceremony.


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## MikeSlisher (Jan 12, 2008)

Third Dan in ITF-style TKD in 1994.
I've never felt the need to promote whenever I was able to, and one you know that I received my First Dan in 1978 and practiced continuously in the meantime, you'll see that is true.  
Every testing I've ever had involved physically performing a variety of techniques before a Grandmaster Instructor.


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## YoungMan (Jan 13, 2008)

Physically tested for Kukkiwon 5th Dan before a 3-man panel of two 7th Dans and one 9th Dan. Testing was a private affair: me and three other guys. Each of us tested separately. Even our Instructor did not stay in the room during testing.


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## terryl965 (Jan 13, 2008)

Well I really did not test for it but I did eat alot of Oreo's to get this Black belt which the tag says it is 44-46 inches. so that is now the highest BB or any other color of a belt I have ever recieved.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 13, 2008)

Brian S said:


> I agree with the ranking through mail and video's, it's laughable.
> 
> BUT, the part I have in bold just doesn't hold much water. Big deal if you have a formal test or not. The time spent in training between ranks IS the test IMO. The actual test is just a formality.


I think the question here is, were you actively doing something, or "sitting home naked on a bean bag chair eating cheetos"* the whole time? 5 yrs != 5yrs in all cases. 



*It's a Ron White quote. :lol:


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## shihansmurf (Jan 14, 2008)

My highest rank is 4th Dan in Shotokan and 4th Dan in Kobudo, both under Kyoshi Everett Wills.  I have also cross trained in EPAK (with Dave Coppock), Okinawan Kenpo(Dorian Fox), Han Foo Wa/Jeet Kune Do(Earl Lewallen and Bill Shaw), and Tae Kwan Do(Stan Martin), and I also boxed for two years in college. 

I hold various ranks in the above systems. I like the eclectic approach. I find that as I I age I am less and less concerned about the ranks that other people claim. As my boxing coach said"The only belts that matter are gold, and you gotta jack someone up to get one."  I don't know if it is his original wording but it does sum things up well.

Mark


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## Shicomm (Jan 17, 2008)

Brian S said:


> I agree with the ranking through mail and video's, it's laughable.
> 
> BUT, the part I have in bold just doesn't hold much water. Big deal if you have a formal test or not. The time spent in training between ranks IS the test IMO. The actual test is just a formality.



I couldn't agree more with you! 

Have had quite a lot of ppl picking on me because i've never had formal tests... 
I just don't care , it's something between my teacher ( shihan @ 13th dan ) and me.
He doesn't test anybody in the dojo, if you're good for it you'll get there when the time is right.

I've noticed people flying thru the ranks, past shodan and even up but i just don't care.
A few months ago i had a nice talk with a guy that was truely amazed that i still was a kyu grade after over 6 years in training....   

At the people that are easy at slandering on bujinkan rank ; if you didn't experience the thing going on in Japan then you just don't know...


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## Balrog (Jan 17, 2008)

The Master said:


> So, I have to ask this highly charged question:
> What is your current rank, and when was the last test you stepped on a floor and showed your metal to a senior or panel of peers?


 
In the ATA, everyone tests, period.  My current rank is 5th Degree and it took me three attempts to earn it.  I'm getting ready to do my first midterm in February so I can test for 6th Degree.


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## Henderson (Jan 18, 2008)

I don't believe all you fine people have been coerced into actually answering the rudest, and least informed question, in martial arts.  "What rank are you?"  Tsk...tsk...tsk.


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## IWishToLearn (Jan 18, 2008)

All of my rank has been tested for.  Not that I put much stock in rank.


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## crushing (Jan 18, 2008)

Henderson said:


> I don't believe all you fine people have been coerced into actually answering the rudest, and least informed question, in martial arts. "What rank are you?" Tsk...tsk...tsk.


 
Why do you consider the question rude?


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## Omar B (Jan 18, 2008)

2nd Degree Black in Seido Karate, tested by Errol Lyn at Seido Karate Of The West Indies, Kingston, Jamaica.


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