# Shield and Mace



## Maltair (Oct 2, 2004)

Here is how we run it at our school, then the question to follow:

1: Step left foot to LNB, right hand does a outward block and left punch to opp kidney.

2: Right hand executes a hammer fist to same kidney while left hand checks shoulder.

3: Right continues circle and rakes the face, Drop into wide knell stance and hit back of opp right knee.

4: Right side kick to opp left knee. Cover out.

Pretty sure that is it. 

I was shown 2 ways to get power out of the first left punch, marriage of gravity-Punch as you land the left foot. Or Torque-block and plant at same time, then unwind into the left punch. 

Here is the question, Which way do you guys do it? Pro's and Cons'
Me, I like the way of the torque. I don't have a lot of mass to marry into gravity.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 2, 2004)

Don't forget 'barrowed force' on the first move.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Oct 3, 2004)

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week32/TipOfTheWeekMedW32.html


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 3, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Don't forget 'barrowed force' on the first move.


besides the force you carry in a barrow, borrowed force helps too.


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## Maltair (Oct 3, 2004)

How do you get borrowed force from this tech?

And doesn't a barrow help do work? you still have to apply the force yourself to the lever. :0

That tip was cool, I hadn't seen that one yet. I like the part where he is stopping the opp before they have a chance to settle.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 4, 2004)

you get borrowed force from a commited attack. If it were the least bit practicle, you could have an extended fist waiting for him to run into, and it would hurt the guy provided your right hand was able to expose the ribs.
Sean


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## Bill Lear (Oct 4, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> you get borrowed force from a commited attack. If it were the least bit practicle, you could have an extended fist waiting for him to run into, and it would hurt the guy provided your right hand was able to expose the ribs.
> Sean



Kinda the same way ancient warriors would set for charge while using spears against a charging army.  :ultracool 

Good post!


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## Shodan (Oct 4, 2004)

There's no "both" option.....that's what I would choose.

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Kenpo Mama (Oct 4, 2004)

Shodan said:
			
		

> There's no "both" option.....that's what I would choose.
> 
> :asian: :karate:


Hey Shodan,

I totally agree with you on that one, definitely need that BOTH option.  I also have to agree that how that first sequence plays out is based upon the attacker's committed action.  If he comes in with a hard committed solid right - then yes i will borrow his force and use the "block settle punch" combo, ah but if he lingers a bit, then i will use my own torquing action to make that left punch a yowzer!

Just my thoughts.

Donna :supcool:


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## Bill Lear (Oct 4, 2004)

Shodan said:
			
		

> There's no "both" option.....that's what I would choose.
> 
> :asian:  :karate:



Actually, you use all of the following power generators in the first move of Shield and Mace:

1. Borrowed Force
2. Rotational Force
3. Gravitational Marriage
4. Directional Harmony


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## Kenpo Mama (Oct 4, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Actually, you use all of the following power generators in the first move of Shield and Mace:
> 
> 1. Borrowed Force
> 2. Rotational Force
> ...


Okay Bill, that is true, since no one else has really touched on it, could you go into a little more detail on Directional Harmony as exhibited in the opening move of Shield and Mace.  Thank you!

Donna:supcool:


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## Bill Lear (Oct 4, 2004)

Kenpo Mama said:
			
		

> Okay Bill, that is true, since no one else has really touched on it, could you go into a little more detail on Directional Harmony as exhibited in the opening move of Shield and Mace.  Thank you!
> 
> Donna:supcool:



Directional Harmony = Having all of your action moving in the same direction.

In Shield and Mace you are stepping forward and at the same time you are rotating your upper body to maximize the forward penetration/momentum of your right punch.

There are several power principles at work in this move. I believe the combined efforts of all of these principles is called CONFLUENCE OF FORCES.


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## Shodan (Oct 4, 2004)

I guess the option I need to look for would be "All that (or both) and a bag of chips" then, eh?!!  Ha ha!!  Thanks for the info. Bill.

  :asian:  :karate:


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## parkerkarate (Oct 5, 2004)

I was taught the basic technique like you were taught, but than I figured out ways to add power. I can  tell you if yo want?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 5, 2004)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I was taught the basic technique like you were taught, but than I figured out ways to add power. I can  tell you if yo want?


By all means.
Sean


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## jaybacca72 (Oct 6, 2004)

you could also do a windmill block with a boxing slip then rotate and strike with the opening blow intead of trying to do every power principle at the same time,just changing the timing. if i were training alone on a heavy bag for increasing my power i would train it slip,low left hook with right hand cover then i would follow with a low straight right,sometimes you just don't have a partner at 11pm when the itch strikes ya.
some variations ie what if's would be cool to hear,i like the extension for this for sure.
later
jay artyon:


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## Maltair (Oct 6, 2004)

I was having problems getting power with the second step. Not the strike but checking the shoulder with the left. I'm not sure if it was becuase my right is coming down and the left is going across, (pat your head and rub your belly sort of thing) or what. 
One thing I came up with that seams to work, need to try it on a couple more people) is torqing into the first strike with the left, rotate the hips and torso CCW just a tad, rotate back CW and strike right hammerfist to kidney and left open palm to shoulder, pushing thru and down. This is putting the motion of both arms along the same plane and allowing me to use my hips to add power. Just not sure if it is quick enough yet.


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## parkerkarate (Oct 6, 2004)

I am a pretty small person so I have to figure out ways to hit just as strong as a person such as Mr. Joe Palanzo or Mr. Tom Kelly.  So Marriage of Gravity has been a big friend.  So when you do the first punch to the kidney think like a boxer.  Slip to the punch, there is no need to take a big step out towards the left, take a little step and their punch will pass right by.  So step than tourque into the punch and block, it is ok if they spin from that just check their other arm and do something else.  From there Marriage of Gravity comes into playas you drop into a close kneel drop that fore-arm strike on their hip.  From their check their arm and sliche their eye as taught. Than drop even lower and strike the back of their leg with your chop, Marriage of Gravity. And  than kick out their back leg or front if you can not reach teir back. 

Now for speed you need to think like a musician, I played an instrument in band throught elementry to  high school. Every song has a tempo, it tells you how fast to move.  When you first learn techniques you are walking through it step by step to figure it out. After that move a little more fluently.  Than from there figure out how fast yo can move and still keep the form of the technique at the same time.  So with this technique, you slip your first punch than imediately drop and strike his hip. From there bounce off his hip and slice his eye as you check his arm. Than as fast as you can drop back down strkie the back of his leg and bouce off of that and kick his leg out.

Now if you want the extension just let me know.

Bruce Lee said, "Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless. Like water. Now put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You pour water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. Now water can creep, drip or crash! Be water my friend." Lets put that into karate terms. You can move fluently like Kung-Fu or you can be hard and stern. There are certain parts in techniques that you need to flow and others were you need to "crash". So, "be like water my friend.


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## Shodan (Oct 6, 2004)

Another way to try.......when the punch comes in, step forward to a left close kneel stance as you windmill parry the punch to the outside of the arm (left then right)- right hand stays up, left goes to chamber.  Your hips stay forward.......now torque right towards the opponent with your left punch to the mid-section as you go to a horse stance.  Torque back to a left close kneel as your right checking hands drops directly down to hammerfist the opponent's right kidney- left hand jump-checks up to the opponent's right arm.  Then on to the eye strike, knee strike and kick, etc.

  Does that help any?  Maybe it's pretty similar to what others wrote......that's how I learned and practice it anyway........

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 6, 2004)

Forgive me if I misunderstand the question.  The first L as described above, as I learned it and as Mr. Tatum does it in the video involves tourque, Not marraige of gravity and not borrowed force.  Follow the vectors.  If the primary energy is downward then marraige of gravity is used (i.e. in the R Hammer fist.) Borrowed force must come in a direction opposing the opponents movement in this case the L would have to strike to 12 o'clock.  Because you slip L then turn and punch with your L this by definition must be Torque.  Directional harmony is good but not present in the L punch as the R block/check is in place before you turn and punch. A commited attack moves the opponent even closer further decreasing any possible element of borrowed force.

respectfully, 

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 6, 2004)

Slightly off topic but this question allowed me to see that this technique is attacking mace with the punching and blocking arms reversed.  Now if you time Attacking mace just right or do the stepping forward varient, borrowed force becomes dominant because the vector of the opponent's movement and your R punch are directly opposing.

Jeff


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2004)

Maltair said:
			
		

> How do you get borrowed force from this tech?
> 
> And doesn't a barrow help do work? you still have to apply the force yourself to the lever. :0
> 
> That tip was cool, I hadn't seen that one yet. I like the part where he is stopping the opp before they have a chance to settle.


My query is the same as yours. Assuming the technique initially responds by striking the kidney area, how is "Borrowed Force" achieved?


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 6, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> My query is the same as yours. Assuming the technique initially responds by striking the kidney area, how is "Borrowed Force" achieved?


I would assume that your opponent has spun around and now is driving forward with their flank exposed, possibly for the dreaded butt strike.  

jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 6, 2004)

Doc,

It's my understanding that originally this was taught as a slip to the L with both hand near the R hip and then a simultaneous R block with a L strike to the Kidney or floating rib.  Is this true?

If it was true, then I would say that directional harmony was achieved in this variation of the technique.

Thanks,
Jeff :asian:


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## jaybacca72 (Oct 7, 2004)

last night i did not respond to this topic cause i said the hell with it no sense typing,i trained it in the air,on my brother(kenpo aswell),with focus pads full out power and i found that you definitely have to slip the punch if it is for real(we trained with my bro wearing some punching gear),torque is a major power principle and definitley directional harmony with mofg . as for attacking mace we did the same thing for the right punch,left jab and we trained both leads forward with borrowed force being a major power principle and torque minor at the end allthough it is present throughout the technique.
what an awesome night training i am so glad to have a training partner like my bro.
later
jay artyon:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 7, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> My query is the same as yours. Assuming the technique initially responds by striking the kidney area, how is "Borrowed Force" achieved?


Ok, let me ask you this. lets say that through his forward momentum and your spreading a target with the outward blocking motion, that causes him to jut his lower ribs toward you, is not called borrowed force.(I'm cool with that) what might you call utilizing a set a lower ribs comming toward your strike? That question goes to any tech that causes a spread and a jut. :asian: 
Sean


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## parkerkarate (Oct 7, 2004)

There is no Borrowed Force acheived here.  There is with Triggered Salute, with Sheild and Mace the apponentent is not doing anything to get you going one way all he is doing is punching, and you are stepping out of the way. Unless you are talking about landing the punch when the apponent has planted his foot? Is that what you meant Doc?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 7, 2004)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> There is no Borrowed Force acheived here.  There is with Triggered Salute, with Sheild and Mace the apponentent is not doing anything to get you going one way all he is doing is punching, and you are stepping out of the way. Unless you are talking about landing the punch when the apponent has planted his foot? Is that what you meant Doc?


Then what do you call the use of his forward momentum on the first strike? I'm willing to buy your answer... honest.
Sean


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## Doc (Oct 7, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Then what do you call the use of his forward momentum on the first strike? I'm willing to buy your answer... honest.
> Sean


Clearly several of us probably see the execution of this technique somewhat differently. Of course this is normal and not at all unusual. The general definition of "Borrowed Force" says:

*An opponent's force which is used against him. This can be accomplished by going with the opponent's force, or going against his force.*

In the interpretation of this technique as I was taught, you angle off by stepping forward and assist your attacker to step past you. Then you pivot using torque from the stored energy in the hips to strike him, after his 'body momentum' causes him to plant forward. Therefore, you are no longer on the line of attack, and are essentially striking from 'behind' the attacker. I see this as not 'borrowing' your attackers force, but instead 'canceling' or 'negating' his force, than countering as you control his width and misalign his hips.

Other interpretations may indeed use 'borrowed force,' but from the general description used at the beginning of this thread, I simply couldn't see it.


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## Doc (Oct 7, 2004)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> There is no Borrowed Force acheived here.  There is with Triggered Salute. With Sheild and Mace the opponent is punching, and you are stepping out of the way. Unless you are talking about landing the punch when the apponent has planted his foot? Is that what you meant Doc?


I think we essentially agree here. Because of the angles involved, even striking while he is planting would not meet the definition of the 'concept' of 'borrowed force' as I see it. "Triggered Salute" yes, "Shied and Mace" no.


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## Doc (Oct 7, 2004)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I would assume that your opponent has spun around and now is driving forward with their flank exposed, possibly for the dreaded butt strike.
> 
> jeff


NOW I understand.


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## parkerkarate (Oct 7, 2004)

I guess after 8 years I finally can figure something out.

LOL


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## Doc (Oct 7, 2004)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I guess after 8 years I finally can figure something out.
> 
> LOL


Add 40 to that, and I'm still a student.


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## kenpoworks (Oct 8, 2004)

Doc,

I questioned you on this very technique in the summer, do you remember!.
You answered my question (which was not about "borrowed force " but power generation), then demonstrated the explanation (which was really about alingment / misalingment and not power) and changed it for ever, while walking from the car to the seminar, it took you about a minute and a half, mind you I was listening.
I know I said thanks, but anyway thanks again.
Richi


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## Doc (Oct 9, 2004)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> I questioned you on this very technique in the summer, do you remember!.
> You answered my question (which was not about "borrowed force " but power generation), then demonstrated the explanation (which was really about alingment / misalingment and not power) and changed it for ever, while walking from the car to the seminar, it took you about a minute and a half, mind you I was listening.
> ...


So you really were listening. It is always a pleasure sir, to talk to intelligent open minded individuals like yourself. I enjoy our conversations immensely, and look forward to our spending more quality time together when I come back to the UK/Jersey area.


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## kenpoworks (Oct 9, 2004)

I will look forward to the opportunity of training with you again.

Sir, the pleasure was all mine.

Many Thanks

Richi

.

p.s. Right after the Shield and Mace moment, there was the story about Caruthers living up the jungle with a Gorilla, you enlightened me and I think I made you laugh.


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