# Escape from Headlock



## Jonathan Randall (Feb 26, 2006)

What are your recommendations for techniques to use to escape from a basic headlock? I have learned several over the course of my MA career, but all of them left a little to be desired. One would only work against a compliant partner or one smaller than yourself, one relied upon your access to vital striking points (likely, given your position, but NOT a given), and the third was untestable.What are some of your recommendations for escaping from a headlock?


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## Makalakumu (Feb 26, 2006)

Is there any particular type of headlock that you are looking to get out of?  There are lots of "basic" headlocks in our system.

Generally, I try to keep the following principles in mind.

1.  Keep the chin down and stop the choke.  
2.  Move your body so it becomes hard for them to apply any leverage.
3.  From here one can use the hands to stop them from completing the structure for the choke or one can use a series of strikes/pinches/bites to make the opponent let go of that structure.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 26, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> 1.  Keep the chin down and stop the choke.
> 2.  Move your body so it becomes hard for them to apply any leverage.
> 3.  From here one can use the hands to stop them from completing the structure for the choke or one can use a series of strikes/pinches/bites to make the opponent let go of that structure.



I'm gonna go with this... it sounds a lot like our own philosphy in the 'Kan.

Remember that to successfully apply any technique an opponent needs a certain positioning, and space.  If you can disrupt that, and take away the positioning and space they need, you can disrupt the technique.  Granted, thats not as easy as it sounds, but when you can "see" the space around you and know how the mechanicas of the attack work, you *should* be able to successfully counter the techniques used on you that way... be they locks, throws, chokes, etc...


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## rutherford (Feb 26, 2006)

Easiest is to turn into it and slip out as the headlock is applied.  If they're reaching across your shoulders left to right to wrap around, you want to turn to your left.  Make sure not to disrupt your balance as you do this and use your footwork to move into a strong position, or you're just gonna get knocked down and you'll be lucky to pull guard.

If it's almost too late, dropping your weight and pulling against their stance's weak points can make you enough space to slip out.  

Remember that you can use your whole body to disrupt their space and balance.  This could mean dropping your hips and pulling them forward, sweeping their legs, rolling your shoulders to throw them across . . . possibilities are endless.  You need to work these to get to know what will work and what won't.

For striking to break the hold, the groin and instep are good targets.  There's lots more, and your art will have shown you its prefered points.  But access to any of these is going to vary a lot depending on the setup.  Headlocks can be applied by a person in front of you, behind you, beside you, on the ground, kneeling, etc.  Don't get caught up on trying to reach any particular target.  Just take them as they come.

You also might have some luck with small joint breaks if you can get ahold of a finger.

Just remember to relax and don't fight the lock itself.  If it's on right, then fighting it with your neck is just gonna hurt.  Fight the fighter.  Break him, and you don't have to worry about the lock.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 26, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Is there any particular type of headlock that you are looking to get out of? There are lots of "basic" headlocks in our system.
> 
> Generally, I try to keep the following principles in mind.
> 
> ...


That is a good start! Also, it relies on you acting as soon as the attack happens. Waiting too long can put you in an ever increasing bad position.

For #2, I would suggest dropping the hips into their space. They need a stable base to make it work. By dropping your hips into their space you change the shape of the attack. Again timing is important. This is but a snapshot of a single movement. While being low you can use your shoulders and chin to keep their arm there and rotate around your hips (never giving the space back, NOT rotating out), and keeping the pressure on them using you shoulders and chin you can put them in a very nice lock and torque them up, meanwhile your hands are free to do eye gouges, pinches, bites, boshi to the ribs, etc. 

Of course it is easier to show than say.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 26, 2006)

depending on your positioning you may be able to attack the back of his knee or even his hand
keeping the head turnd and slipping out with pressure on his elbow is alway a good thing to try


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Is there any particular type of headlock that you are looking to get out of? There are lots of "basic" headlocks in our system.
> 
> Generally, I try to keep the following principles in mind.
> 
> ...





			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That is a good start! Also, it relies on you acting as soon as the attack happens. Waiting too long can put you in an ever increasing bad position.
> 
> For #2, I would suggest dropping the hips into their space. They need a stable base to make it work. By dropping your hips into their space you change the shape of the attack. Again timing is important. This is but a snapshot of a single movement. While being low you can use your shoulders and chin to keep their arm there and rotate around your hips (never giving the space back, NOT rotating out), and keeping the pressure on them using you shoulders and chin you can put them in a very nice lock and torque them up, meanwhile your hands are free to do eye gouges, pinches, bites, boshi to the ribs, etc.
> 
> Of course it is easier to show than say.


 
I am not exactly sure what a basic headlock is, but I agree with what has been said by upnorthkyosa and Bigshadow

Also I might add, I'm going back a few years (>20) here to Jujitsu

But if possible simply grab the person, that has you in the head lock, by any available pinky finger and bend it. In a direction that it is not meant to go 

Depending on your position, there may also be a knee or instep to step on. 

There are also some fairly painful Qin Na points on either side of the elbow too. 

Generally if you cause them great pain they let go.

However in a sparing situation things are different, obviously you do not want to maim your fellow martial artist.


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## bignick (Feb 26, 2006)

Pinching...

My instructor was demonstrating and asked me to apply a headlock, I wasn't expecting it at all and he almost dropped me with a simple pinch on my upper thigh.  The key is to get as little skin as possible.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 26, 2006)

Here's a old-style boxing technique (which does work against resistance)

Reach arounf behind them and grab there other arm at the elbow, this keeps you from getting punched.  Get your hips under you and stand up into it, pulling on the arm at the same time, Keep your head up and you should stretch them out, ideally bringing them right up on there toes. there head locking arm is now trapped around your head and because they are stretched out body shots are going to go over well 

Another simple option - Reach =up and grab there shoulder with your inside arm, take a wide base and sit down on your outside foot pulling them down as well.

There really are a lot of options if you get caught in a basic headlock,


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## Marginal (Feb 26, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> Pinching...
> 
> My instructor was demonstrating and asked me to apply a headlock, I wasn't expecting it at all and he almost dropped me with a simple pinch on my upper thigh. The key is to get as little skin as possible.


 
The only danger there is it doesn't work on everyone. Ended up getting pinched by everyone in class one day when I didn't react to that one... Got kinda bruised, but I never felt anything more painful than a standard pinch, which was easy enough to ignore and maintain the hold. 

A simple one I like is to just push on the back of their knee, which usually disrupts their balance enough that they forget they're supposed to be holding on...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2006)

Marginal said:
			
		

> A simple one I like is to just push on the back of their knee, which usually disrupts their balance enough that they forget they're supposed to be holding on...


 
That was another old Jujitsu one, simplicity is always best in real life situations.

There was more to it that had to do with falling backwards with the head-locker, but I cannot remember the entire move.


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## SAVAGE (Feb 26, 2006)

Hit whatever vital area you can...pinch nerves...do what you have to do!


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## Bigshadow (Feb 27, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I am not exactly sure what a basic headlock is,


Me either, but when I think of a headlock, I am thinking the person really knows how to apply one and will have me off balance backwards and is cranking it on. Not one of these you see in a magazine or a demo where they just step up behind you and try a headlock without taking balance. Someone who is skilled is going to get a headlock where the victim has very little or no balance. Having that done to you, it will feel pretty agressive and shocking. So it is important to keep a clear mind.


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Is there any particular type of headlock that you are looking to get out of? There are lots of "basic" headlocks in our system.
> 
> Generally, I try to keep the following principles in mind.
> 
> ...


 
Looks like a good plan.  I agree with BigShadow, the defense should begin as soon as possible.  It may also be a good idea to use your leg to check the attackers leg.  This will momentarily disrupt his balance giving you a chance to begin a counter.

I like the idea of a pinch.  The back of the leg as well as the inner thigh provide some great areas for this.  

Mike


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## MJS (Feb 27, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Here's a old-style boxing technique (which does work against resistance)
> 
> Reach arounf behind them and grab there other arm at the elbow, this keeps you from getting punched. Get your hips under you and stand up into it, pulling on the arm at the same time, Keep your head up and you should stretch them out, ideally bringing them right up on there toes. there head locking arm is now trapped around your head and because they are stretched out body shots are going to go over well
> 
> ...


 
I like this defense!  Keeps them off balance and provides a quick release from the pressure they're putting on your head.

Mike


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> So it is important to keep a clear mind.


 
Agreed, very very important, that is why I like simplicity. 

My experience with head locks comes from Jujitsu and it can be from almost anywhere generally on the ground.

But I highly agree with what you have said.


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## Jesse (Feb 27, 2006)

Okay guys this is how its done...

If they have gotten through to you and have a good choke on you, you only have about 2 minutes before you go out so it has to be done quit fast. 
First thing you do is rake the back of your foot down the chin of one of this legs causes him to kind of loose consentration on the choke.  Then when this is happening you have to notice which arm is wrapped around the front of your neck. Lets just say he's right handed and he has his right hand wrapped around your neck. You take both of your arms up and grab just behind his elbow. This is just so you can take another breath and be able to get some blood flow up to the brain.
As soon as you pull down on that arm you drop the same leg in this case your right leg and turn to your right side. This will cause your attacker to roll over your shoulder, since he is now off balance and roll onto the ground. Then you get up and now your in control with him looking at your foot coming closer to his face.

This technique works very well and it doesn't matter how big of a difference in size the two of you are.  I have done it with small guys and even huge 300 lbs guys. Its all about using their own unbalanced body weight to take them to the ground.

There are other counter-attacks once they are on the ground but you can use your imagination.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 27, 2006)

Something to consider...




			
				Jesse said:
			
		

> Okay guys this is how its done...
> 
> First thing you do is rake the back of your foot down the chin of one of this legs causes him to kind of loose consentration on the choke.


Good luck for two reasons.

1.  If they have you off balance like they should (someone who knows how to attack with a headlock), you pick up a leg to move it and you will more than likely end up falling on your butt and/or choking yourself out.  Moving your feet in this situation is for more difficult before you can get your hips UNDER your shoulders.


2.  Again if they have a good choke on you, their shins won't be close enough for you rake-em, until you can get your hips under your shoulders.  Chokes are NOT like the ones Sondra Bullock demonstrated in 'Miss Congeniality".  The shin rake is not a technique I would stake my consciousness on.


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## Jimi (Feb 27, 2006)

I agree, respond as quick as possible. Don't get in a headlock in the first place, or don't let a headlock become a choke, try to keep the attacker from finding his other hand. The difference between a headlock and a choke is quite serious. With most headlocks keep your attacker from wrenching your neck by locking on his arm and make him struggle against all your body weight instead of just your neck muscles. I learned a princple called 2 hands on 1, which ever arm is at your neck,chin or throat, latch on to it. I was told, If you were arm wrestling for your life would you cheat and use the other han?, HELL YES! Aslo a strength and endurence drill is to do short chin ups ( about 4-6 inch lifts ) just to get the throat free. Can be done in reps like chin ups or long endurence hanging. You may have to struggle against a UFC wanna be or the like who may not let you have you head back for a while. The better you can clear your neck the more likely you can effect some possible escape or reversal. All the insight in the world will not overcome a strong quick choke-out. Just a funny note, when I was about 16 a Punk Rocker nick-named Fast Eddie (Spiked Mohawk and all) said to my friend, "I know a great headlock escape" so my friend grabbed him in a snug but not life threating headlock and said "OK, get out" He  then grabbed his own chin and back of his own head and gave himself a chiropractic adjustment he was practiced at, Crunch! Then he went limp in my friend arms. My friend freaked, thiniking Fast Eddie had gotten injured trying to get out, and let him go, stepping back saying "Are you OK!?" We all laughed for a while. We all agreed it was funny, but we would never trusted that some-one with harmfull intention would release you after hearing and feeling a crunch. Just my opinion. PEACE


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## rutherford (Feb 27, 2006)

Is choking really what everybody thinks is the natural progression for a headlock?

This might be what your big brother is gonna do if you're playing around, because it's a good dominate position.  But it really seems like there's a lot more brutal stuff that could come from here.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 27, 2006)

Alright, I admit, I wasn't thinking headlock in the sense of wrastling around with my brother.  My thoughts were more like a choke from behind (from beginning to end), it is still a lock.  I never once thought about the usual headlock (nuggie style).  However, there are many good ways of getting out of that too, that really use the same prinicples I discussed earlier.

Agreed, though, a headlock from the front or side isn't so much for choking.


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## rutherford (Feb 27, 2006)

A front headlock is very similar to a guillotine choke.  You can definitely apply a choke from that position.  I just don't think it's as likely, unless you happen to be facing somebody who is very good at getting vascular chokes and doesn't want to use their knees, take you to the ground, or bash you off something sharp and hard.


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## Jimi (Feb 27, 2006)

I understand that not everyone will choke from a headlock Rutherford, but would you really go for knee strikes like in a Thai Camp, or old school street fight stuff and ram him into a door, bar etc... rather than choke him from a headlock that's right there. Granted horsing around with your brother is a far cry from if some @$$ on the street gets a hold of your head, I can't  imagine they would be so kind as to not try to choke me out. If some-one has me in a headlock, ( and potentialy a choke )they have access to 3 life support systems so to speak. My breathing, my blood flow to my brain and my spinal cord. Although some people like to add insult to injury, with so many people training MMA & BJJ nowa days, choking is the nartural progression from a headlock( Just ask any Gracie Family member ). Unless you  prefer to just destroy the neck in a break somehow. It is quite possible to do other things from a headlock, but not going for a choke from a headlock is a no no among a lot of arts nowa days. This is just a matter of opinion. By the way most people would have less than 2 minutes before passing out from a choke.


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## SAVAGE (Feb 27, 2006)

Jesse said:
			
		

> Okay guys this is how its done...
> 
> If they have gotten through to you and have a good choke on you, you only have about 2 minutes before you go out so it has to be done quit fast.


 
Two minutes...you are being optimistic...try about 20 seconds!

I have thought alot about this...one is to let your body go limp and the guy will think you are knocked out...then when he lets you go...KICK HIS ***!!!

or in the case of a trained MAist...try tapping his arm...if his muscle memory serves him well (and you), he just may let go!

I know they sound like dumb Ideas and they probablly are...but hey you gotta wade through the dumb ideas to get to a good one!


Remember never hold your farts in....would anyone like to know why?


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## Marginal (Feb 27, 2006)

Jimi said:
			
		

> I understand that not everyone will choke from a headlock Rutherford, but would you really go for knee strikes like in a Thai Camp, or old school street fight stuff and ram him into a door, bar etc... rather than choke him from a headlock that's right there.


 
Or go for a hip throw/takedown. The classic noogie pose doesn't seem like it'd be all that great a position to throw punches, much less knees. That's somethign I've always been bugged by. Defeat a bearhug, defeat a headlock etc. Lots of TMA's offer these as static positions. Who gets someone in a bear hug, then just leaves it at that?


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## MA-Caver (Feb 27, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> Pinching...
> 
> My instructor was demonstrating and asked me to apply a headlock, I wasn't expecting it at all and he almost dropped me with a simple pinch on my upper thigh.  The key is to get as little skin as possible.


 :lol2: Yeah! I don't think there's anyone who can withstand that... likewise with a good firm grasp on the nether regions if the guy's legs are wide apart for balance. 
Also with whatever hand is free I apply thumb pressure to the kidney region while grasping the near-most leg at the knee to take them off balance. 

This is of course if the opponent isn't busily bashing my face in while applying the lock as non-MA-ist tend to do (come to think of it... if the opportunity were for me... I'd do the same thing...  )... depends on the situation and what's going on. 
Dropping to your knees and grabbing the belt, top of the pant to take them down with you helps as well. Adding more weight (centralized) is going to make that headlock more difficult to maintain. 
There are lots of different ways. But I love that one by BigNick!


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## bignick (Feb 27, 2006)

Jesse said:
			
		

> Okay guys this is how its done...
> 
> If they have gotten through to you and have a good choke on you, you only have about 2 minutes before you go out so it has to be done quit fast.



You were both optimisitc...a solid choke latched on...

..I'd give you 3-5 seconds....


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## bignick (Feb 27, 2006)

Exactly what situation are we discussing here?  There seems to be a lot mixed wires.  A side headlock, front headlock, rear headlock/choke.  Are we standing/sitting/sprawled, etc?  

Should make the discussion a lot smoother.  I'll post a bit for side head lock in a bit.  Gotta finish up some stuff.


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## Jonathan Randall (Feb 27, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> Exactly what situation are we discussing here? There seems to be a lot mixed wires. A side headlock, front headlock, rear headlock/choke. Are we standing/sitting/sprawled, etc?
> 
> Should make the discussion a lot smoother. I'll post a bit for side head lock in a bit. Gotta finish up some stuff.


 
I'm sorry, I should have specified in the original post: I meant side headlock.

Thanks all for the good responses.


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## bignick (Feb 27, 2006)

Ok, from the top of my head for a side headlock, remember always protect your neck and try to keep good posture to prevent yourself from being taken down:

The aforementioned pinching

Reaching around to the closest hand and attacking the pressure point below the nose and philtrum.  

Attacking the knee, any angle will work just fine, the knee is vulnerable in all directions, it will depend on your positioning, but don't just strike, strike and drive through to do damage.  

Depending on the footwhear of the attacker and your position, attacking the instep or shin is a possiblity for distraction.

Elbowing or attacking to the ribs, or the thigh.

Attacking the radial nerve on the attackers arm.

Slipping your closest foot behind both the attackers legs, grab them around the waist and drive backwards performing a tani otoshi.

Attack the grabbing arms hand between the metacarpals.

Should be a start, there's always more, that's just what's coming to mind...


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## rutherford (Feb 28, 2006)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Or go for a hip throw/takedown. The classic noogie pose doesn't seem like it'd be all that great a position to throw punches, much less knees.


 
Because your talking about the person applying the headlock standing facing the opposite direction as me.  That's typically called a side headlock, since you and your opponent are facing the same way.  And that seems to be the way the thread is going now.

BigShadow mentioned a front headlock, and in that case you'd have great position to use knees.  Personally, I'd use them to slam into the person's midsection once we're falling after I drive them backwards and to the ground, still pulling up and back on their neck.

And if they keep their footing by backpeddling hard, you can expect a sudden stop and twist.



			
				Jimi said:
			
		

> I understand that not everyone will choke from a headlock Rutherford, but would you really go for knee strikes like in a Thai Camp, or old school street fight stuff and ram him into a door, bar etc... rather than choke him from a headlock that's right there. Granted horsing around with your brother is a far cry from if some @$$ on the street gets a hold of your head, I can't imagine they would be so kind as to not try to choke me out. If some-one has me in a headlock, ( and potentialy a choke )they have access to 3 life support systems so to speak. My breathing, my blood flow to my brain and my spinal cord.


 
Have you worked the headlock much?  If you haven't, I doubt you're gonna pull that choke as easily as you think.  The headlock really isn't very good for much besides immobilization.  I think most BJJ guys would transition to a stronger submission from the headlock, either taking the back or going for a sweep.

I'd much rather some guy on the street try to choke me in the headlock.  In that case, he's probably seen too much pro wrestling.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 28, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I should have specified in the original post: I meant side headlock.
> 
> Thanks all for the good responses.



My question is...  Are you concerned about hurting the person?  If so, I cannot be of much use.  If not, first I would take their balance and then I would destroy their structure (or shape of attack), then lock them up.


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## Jimi (Feb 28, 2006)

Never said weither or not I have worked the headlock much, or if I could pull it off myself, I was simply surprised that if you had a headlock that you would do something else besides try to get under the chin and choke from there. Everyone favors what their training prefers. BTW, yes I have worked headlocks, chokes etc...before and not at a McDojo. Again I am surprised is all, some-one with a headlock and does not think a choke is the natural progression from there is just interesting to me. Don't twist my head off, or knee me or something.(I MEANT THAT AS A JOKE) Different strokes for different folks. PEACE


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## rutherford (Feb 28, 2006)

And I have the opposite surprise.  I'd also be surprised at finding a JKD McDojo.  The D seems to be the only thing they have in common.  

When I say "You" I don't mean for the discussion to get personal, and am merely meaning it as a general term for the participants in the conflict.  I should hope that neither of us is planning to attack the other. 

Unless you think it'd be fun.

 %-}


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 28, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> What are your recommendations for techniques to use to escape from a basic headlock? I have learned several over the course of my MA career, but all of them left a little to be desired. One would only work against a compliant partner or one smaller than yourself, one relied upon your access to vital striking points (likely, given your position, but NOT a given), and the third was untestable.What are some of your recommendations for escaping from a headlock?


 
Depending on your position in relation to your opponent's. In case of front guillotine headlock, I will attack the opponent's inguinal canal, using boshiken/thumb jams. This will help loosen him up for takedowns or joint locks. In case of rear headlock/sleeperhold, there is a Kata called Ketsumyaku in Gyokko-ryu that will do just fine (it's some kind of a shoulder throw). In case of side headlock, I will drive thumb jams into the bridge of opponent's nose and the back of his knee at the same time, this will bring him down.

Off couse, all those escapes only works against the clueless. Against high skilled attacker, the chances of success will be greatly reduced.


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## Jimi (Feb 28, 2006)

Great response man. I love the pirate icon. I too do not mean any of this to seem personal as well. I am sure if we attacked each other, we would both be hurtn' bobcats. If I were in someones front headlock or even a rear headlock(Especialy a BJJ guy or girl) I expect a choke out attempt. A side headlock is different enough that a choke is not my first concern. Not that any other option is not valid, just soo many people today would go for it in my opinion. Headlocks suck, I have an older brother and it brings back dark, stinky memories. Headlocks & Chokes are a little different, hence the names are different. Headlocks & Chokes=get out,get out, getout! however you can. Hope you are with me Brother ( I mean that in the Kung Fu Theater way ) Hope my simpleminded opinion did not cause too much surprise. PEACE


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## kickcatcher (Mar 8, 2006)

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> Hit whatever vital area you can...pinch nerves...do what you have to do!


Which nerves do you suggest? 


In answer to the orginal question, I think that grappling training like in MMA is probably the best way to avoid and/or counter headlocks. A front headlock can be thought of as a guillotine choke - if the choke isn't on then that's just a plus. A side headlock is also reasonably common in most sport-grappling setting except Judo etc and proficiency in escaping can be got if you apply enough Alive training to the problem. Strikes etc are cool, but not the whole answer IMO.


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## RoninPimp (Mar 8, 2006)

Basic BJJ covers headlock escapes very well.


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## rutherford (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> In answer to the orginal question, I think that grappling training like in MMA is probably the best way to avoid and/or counter headlocks. A front headlock can be thought of as a guillotine choke - if the choke isn't on then that's just a plus.


 
I made a similar comment, but I think it's time to clarify.

A guillotine choke involves wrapping the opponent's neck with both of your arms with your opponent directly in front of you.  A Headlock only uses one arm and pins the opponent to your body for the other support.

This is a front headlock, both people standing:


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## Jimi (Mar 9, 2006)

Excellent clarification Rutherford!


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> I made a similar comment, but I think it's time to clarify.
> 
> A guillotine choke involves wrapping the opponent's neck with both of your arms with your opponent directly in front of you. A Headlock only uses one arm and pins the opponent to your body for the other support.
> 
> This is a front headlock, both people standing:


 
A fair point but I don't think we should be too picky as what is/isn't a headlock. There are of course variations of guillotine and during Alive training within a wide-bandwidth grappling-permissive art (MMA etc) you inveitably come accross all manner of variations. A guillotine is a worst case scenario IMO. The headlock you show is a hell of a lot easier to escape IMO and anti-guillotine moves would work in that situation too. In fact, a reasonable grappler is not going to be too worried about finding themselves in that at all....


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## DavidCC (Mar 9, 2006)

bignick said:
			
		

> You were both optimisitc...a solid choke latched on...
> 
> ..I'd give you 3-5 seconds....


 
a choke that seals the blood will pass you out in sconds

a choke that seals the breath will take a lot longer.... but could kill you.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> a choke that seals the blood will pass you out in sconds
> 
> a choke that seals the breath will take a lot longer.... but could kill you.


Not to be pedantic, but both chokes (wind) and strangles (blood) are inherently fatel moves if carried on past initial unconsciousness. 

Whilst blood chokes (strangles) are in theory quicker, I'd suggest that they induce less panic in the 'victim'. Air chokes obviously work quicker on people who panic/flail etc. 

In terms of preference, common sense would say take what you find.


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## rutherford (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> A fair point but I don't think we should be too picky as what is/isn't a headlock.


I disagree entirely.  As BigNick points out, I think that having a definition would keep the thread from being a complete mess.


			
				kickcatcher said:
			
		

> In fact, a reasonable grappler is not going to be too worried about finding themselves in that at all....


 
If you're gonna give me such a wide open statement with no support or explanation, I'm gonna run with it and use it to support my earlier statements.  Thanks.   

I think a grappler would not be too worried because while it's a position of control, it isn't a great position for choking or other submission.  

However, a person not worried about sport fighting rules or killing their opponent would LOVE to get such a dominate position.  

It's all about mindset.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Interesting points. I must disagree though. 

I am a fan of the notion that being too specific and compartmentalized in terms of defences against &#8216;x&#8217; attack invites hesitation. Therefore I view the headlock shown as a variation on the &#8220;front headlock&#8221; theme, just as the guillotine choke is a variation on the same. 

With regards to the above drawing, which to me is only part of the wider picture, it is an example of a poorly applied front headlock. Assuming both are unarmed, I&#8217;d say that the guy in the headlock, provided they have reasonable grappling (by which I mean MMA/BJJ etc) experience, can easily gain the advantage. 

I do not think &#8220;sport fighting rules&#8221; come into it. Sport fighting, by which most people mean MMA, includes the guillotine choke from that basic position which is a hell of a lot more effective than most things. 

For a start the guy applying the choke has a poor base and the guy in the headlock could easily effect a takedown into mount, from where he could extract his head and ground-n-pound the attacker. Before you jump onto my suggestion of taking it to the ground, bear in mind that we are talking about going straight into a dominant position. 

The above escape is not typical in MMA et al because people generally maintain a better base whilst applying the headlock. Therefore we should consider whether the other &#8220;sport&#8221; guillotine escapes would work here. Firstly the tactic of looking/pushing your head up behind their shoulder and circling around behind their back &#8211; yep, that would work and leave you in a dominant side/back position. 

Or the escapes where you lift and slam the opponent &#8211; requires greater physical prowess but no reason why it suddenly doesn&#8217;t apply equally here. 

The dropping defence I would personally count last but I am sure it could also work with a high degree of success if you are suitably skilled.


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## rutherford (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Interesting points. I must disagree though.
> 
> I am a fan of the notion that being too specific and compartmentalized in terms of defences against &#8216;x&#8217; attack invites hesitation. Therefore I view the headlock shown as a variation on the &#8220;front headlock&#8221; theme, just as the guillotine choke is a variation on the same.


I'm also interested, because I almost agree with your second paragraph. I also think that being too specific about defenses is a bad thing, but it's not hesitation that I believe will occur. I think if you only know one defense, you're Less likely to hesitate.

The problem is that everybody will move in a different way, and there's a counter for every defense. Thus, one must not grow attached to any particular technique.

But I think that terminology is a great thing.  I think it's important to have referrence points. That realization of, "I'm in a headlock" and having a name for it can be very comforting and give you the sense of, "I know what to do." . . . Even if all these thoughts are just impressions that you shouldn't focus on until after the conflict is resolved.





			
				kickcatcher said:
			
		

> With regards to the above drawing, which to me is only part of the wider picture, it is an example of a poorly applied front headlock.


I'd be interested in your ideas about how to apply it better.


			
				kickcatcher said:
			
		

> I do not think &#8220;sport fighting rules&#8221; come into it. Sport fighting, by which most people mean MMA, includes the guillotine choke from that basic position which is a hell of a lot more effective than most things.


Everything changes when a valid defense is to grab the other guy's scrotum and PULL.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Rutherford, the headlock would be better is the guy applying it made it into a guillotine choke and/or moved his hips back ("base out") to make him less prone to being taken down, either deliberately or by chance. 

I googled "front headlock" hoping for good examples and I did find these two relevant pictures. 

1. from A submission-grappling comp.  Note how the guy on the left is keeping his hips back, thus putting his weight onto the guy and not gifting a take-down (_my guess is that this is actually a guillotine attempt against a shoot or similar takedown attempt, but it is still illustrative of my general point IMO)_






2. This is an example of a counter to a non-choking front headlock. It's shown in a sport-Wrestling situation but is generic to grappling and would be relatively do-able from the headlock previously illustrated because the guy had his legs within easy reach:





PS. I don't think that grabbing the groin is a magic answer for front headlocks. No reason not to do it, but it's a poor excuse for not having basic skills.


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## rutherford (Mar 9, 2006)

I agree totally, and I really like the pictures.  However, I really question the value of the trip the second guy is going to perform.  If his opponent is strong enough to hold on and jerks back hard to increase the momentum of the trip . . . ouch.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

I see what you are saying. I'd prefer a more simple takedown rather than a leg-pick-up trip as shown, in part because the latter is going to leave you in their guard whereas you could go straight to side control or mount if you kept your legs outside of theirs. But I'm no expert, just saying it as I see it. I can see why you'd be concerned re the momentum of the fall, but in practice I don't see it as a big deal. Go with the momentum and ride it to mount, then extract your head and GnP....


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## MJS (Mar 9, 2006)

Well, we can look at this from two different sides, street and sport.  If I'm outside defending myself, the last thing on my mind is going to be trying for a takedown, go to the mount, side mount etc.  Quick and simple release.


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