# MACaver



## Flatlander

Needs to post some more caving pictures.  I bet he's got some interesting ones.  This thread can be dedicated to pestering him until he does, and then the subsequent posting of his pics and inevitable commentary that will accompany such.

So,

Come on man!  Show us some more!


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## bignick

come on...come on...Come On....COME on....come ON....COME ON...come on...


i agree they'd be cool to see...


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## MA-Caver

:roflmao: 
Oh geez... Ceicei and I were just talking about my putting pics up... 
Wow, a thread in my honor... (cowardly lion's voice) "Shucks folks I'm speechless." 
 :asian: 
ok but you hit the right button and no pestering is needed ... I :inlove: :inlove: :inlove: LOVE  :inlove:  :inlove:  :inlove: caving. So question is do ya'll want ME or just anything I've done with other folks...
These were from last weekend at a popular pit that we use for training. 
These were my pics that I took so obviously I'm not in them. Also FYI the pit is roughly between 55 to 60 feet in depth and a good 75 feet across at the bottom. A great place to practice single rope techinques which is what these guys are doing.


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## mj-hi-yah

Cool pics MACaver but you put them up too soon I had so many fun things to tell all the people here about what we say about you in the LLR...oh well


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## shesulsa

POST MORE PICS!     POST MORE PICS!  

 (some of you would be nice)

 POST MORE PICS!     POST MORE PICS!

 (and send the chocolate anyway - I prefer belgian dark)

 POST MORE PICS!     POST MORE PICS!


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## mj-hi-yah

shesulsa said:
			
		

> POST MORE PICS! POST MORE PICS!
> 
> (some of you would be nice)
> 
> POST MORE PICS! POST MORE PICS!
> 
> (and send the chocolate anyway - I prefer belgian dark)
> 
> POST MORE PICS! POST MORE PICS!


SEE I KNEW IT GEORGIA GETS CHOCOLATES!!!! LOL


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## shesulsa

*POST MORE PICS!  POST MORE PICS!*

_{Preferrable delivered by Fed-Ex (a.m. delivery) or courier.}_

*POST MORE PICS!  POST MORE PICS!*

_{I promise to share, MJ - we'll brief all the ladies tonight on the ship to Alpha Centauri}_

*POST MORE PICS!  POST MORE PICS!*


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## Flatlander

Awesome pics, MACaver!  Man, that looks really freaky.  I don't think that I could handle all the dangling and swinging.  Yikes.


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## Ping898

Liking the pics.  I agree with the rest... PUT MORE UP!:ultracool


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## MA-Caver

This admiration is just TOO much to handle... geez. 
Uhh incidently... I don't recall bribing Shesulsa with any chocolate... hmm? 
Anyway more pics of the pit... other caves coming soon.


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## shesulsa

Didn't you say you'd give me chocolate if I told you what Ceicei said about you in the LLR?  ....  maybe I'm dreaming.....


 Nice pix - any of you?


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## TigerWoman

McCaver, there aren't any of you... 

More pix, more pix, more pix

Caving, I gotta admire that.  I think I would be vertically challenged.  I worked in a 22nd floor building once, glass wall, artboard right next to the wall.  Couldn't look down, blood would run to my feet.  But that was before martial arts.....  

Did I hear chocolate?  Fedex, UPS it would be good, USPS no, they'd leave it in the sun... oh, yeah, I read that too, what Ceicei said besides I'm chocolate deprived - hubby hid it before going on a trip!! Sigh, I told him to hide it.   TW


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## MA-Caver

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Didn't you say you'd give me chocolate if I told you what Ceicei said about you in the LLR?  ....  maybe I'm dreaming.....
> Nice pix - any of you?


I take the Fifth on the chocolate...
Sigh ... of me... ohh kay   
The first is me when I first started caving in Utah some 14 yrs ago... wet, muddy cave that was... loved it. 
The second is one that I lead a lot of trips to...rappelling down 95' in a 220' mine-shaft where the cave intersects and swing in... way cool.
The last is about a month ago a sister cave to the first pic... wet and muddy and lots of technical climbing involved. 

For those who are being intrigued about doing this yourself go to www.caves.org and look up organizations and go from there...


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## mj-hi-yah

I'll take your taking the 5th as an admission of your guilt!   Thank you very much!   

This really is an interesting passion of yours MACaver one question...do you practice your martial arts in the caves?


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## shesulsa

Thanks, Caver!!  We recently went exploring in a lava tube up here we call Ape Cave (legend is Sasquatch lives there).  It was kewl!  Would like to get more into rapelling and more serious spelunking!

 Thanks!


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## TigerWoman

It looks hard.  Thanks for the pics, enjoyed seeing what you were talking about...and you too!  TW


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## Lisa

MACaver, what beautiful and awesome pictures... however, hanging in mid air with only a rope between me and falling... umm... not for this chick... errr.. chicken   :idunno: call me crazy but I like two feet planted firmly on the ground.


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## Ceicei

Well, caving is quite a workout.  Once down underground in some caves, it's very beautiful.  If you think Carlsbad Caverns are pretty, there are other caves that are absolutely gorgeous!  MACaver has tons of pictures from all over.

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

Well hanging on a 7/16 (or 11mm) thick line might not seem sane but here are a couple of reasons WHY one would do so... you'd have to get on rope to get into this cave... it's one I plan to take Ceicei to. 
and the last pic is one of my favorite reasons why I like to teach... 
she's holding a piece of formation that was broken off... which is why we like to GATE the caves shut and make folks jump hoops to get the key... it's sad that we have to do that but until we catch the fokkers  :whip: nuthing we can do...


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## MA-Caver

By the way... I need to introduce the gal in the pic above... Danielle H. She's a neat gal who shows promise of being a great caver... Here she is with her BF James H. one of my good friends.


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## mj-hi-yah

She's adorable...It looks like he's saying, "My heart's caving for you!" :inlove: :inlove: :inlove:


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## shesulsa

AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWW........ 

 Again, Beautiful Pix!


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## Shodan

Nice pictures!!  I have a question that may be sort of stupid.......but asking it anyway.......so how do you get back out of these caves you drop down into?  Do you climb back up the ropes somehow or with some, can you walk out thru the cave entrance?   :idunno:


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## Kenpo Mama

Hey MACaver,

Absolutely gorgeous pix.  These caves look awesome.  Maybe someday we'll get to visit some of these.  The closest i've come to caving  is "cave tubing" in Belize.  I was kinda' scared of the BATS!  I kept thinking they were going to swoop down on us while we were floating by in our tubes.  How did you get started in caving?

Donna :supcool:


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## MA-Caver

Shodan said:
			
		

> Nice pictures!!  I have a question that may be sort of stupid.......but asking it anyway.......so how do you get back out of these caves you drop down into?  Do you climb back up the ropes somehow or with some, can you walk out thru the cave entrance?   :idunno:


Shodan, if you go to the beginning of the thread you'll see where I posted pics of people either rappelling or ascending... which is climbing on the rope itself (not the rock(s)) with mechanical ascenders (see below) ... it takes some training and practice to do the simplest (vertical) caves but lots of practice to do the techincal ones. It is a great aerobic work out over 100 feet. My deepest thus far is -400' down an open -700' mineshaft... hopefully before year's end I'll complete the drop to the bottom and work my way back up. My deepest IN-CAVE drop is -300' down a shaft big enough you can drop a 757 fuselage down into. Love it - love it - loooove it! 
1st pic is the basic which is usually attached to a loop at the foot. 2nd pic is the Croll which can be at the foot or at the waist-harness, third is the hand held ascender... one configuration (out of many  ) is the Frog... shown with the 4th pic. To operate it all it's basically sit-stand, sit-stand, sit-stand, and so forth.



			
				mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> She's adorable...It looks like he's saying, "My heart's caving for you!"    :inlove:  :inlove:  :inlove:


Their first date was in a cave that I took them (and another couple) to about a couple of years ago... they've been together since. Initally she gives the impression of one of those "ohhh, I broke a nail" type of girls but she really, rilly loves this stuff. My bud James is of course just ... as you say caved in for her.  They've talked about getting married in a cave someday. It wouldn't be the first.... nor the last... I'd want to do the same. Just gotta find a preacher willing to err, get down and dirty shall we say?  :uhyeah:


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## Shodan

Thanks MACaver......makes more sense to me now!!  I imagine it would be quite a workout climbing back out but it looks like a ton of fun.  Are there big pressure changes (ears popping, etc) on the longer drops?  Also, can you carefully explore most of the caves or is it mainly looking at what you can on the drop in and then leaving again?  One more.......have you ever dropped into a cave with water (like a creek, river, etc) at the bottom?

  My brother is a geologist/hydrogeologist and he runs across mine shafts and such all the time in his work- he said he'd love to explore some of them if he had the equipment/know how, etc.

  Very cool stuff-
                              :asian:  :karate:


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## Flatlander

Aren't you all glad I started this thread now?  Hmmmmm?  I certainly am.  Thanks MACaver!


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## mj-hi-yah

flatlander said:
			
		

> Aren't you all glad I started this thread now? Hmmmmm? I certainly am. Thanks MACaver!


I have never seen you do anything that didn't put a  on my face!


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## Flatlander

Awwwww, shucks ma'am, *looks down, puts hands in pockets, shuffles feet in dirt*  just bein' friendly'n'all.  Ain't no need to get all mushy'n stuff.  *face flushes*


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## mj-hi-yah

Ya see what I mean? BIG BIG    




			
				MACaver said:
			
		

> Their first date was in a cave that I took them (and another couple) to about a couple of years ago... they've been together since. Initally she gives the impression of one of those "ohhh, I broke a nail" type of girls but she really, rilly loves this stuff. My bud James is of course just ... as you say caved in for her. They've talked about getting married in a cave someday. It wouldn't be the first.... nor the last... I'd want to do the same. Just gotta find a preacher willing to err, get down and dirty shall we say?  :uhyeah:


  That is such a nice story!  You'll have to keep us posted on both counts!


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## MA-Caver

Shodan said:
			
		

> Thanks MACaver......makes more sense to me now!!  I imagine it would be quite a workout climbing back out but it looks like a ton of fun.  Are there big pressure changes (ears popping, etc) on the longer drops?  Also, can you carefully explore most of the caves or is it mainly looking at what you can on the drop in and then leaving again?  One more.......have you ever dropped into a cave with water (like a creek, river, etc) at the bottom?


Caves are usually defined as naturally occurring voids in the earth's crust. Probably (one of) the most interesting facts about caves is that they're alive, they go through a "life-cycle" if you will. Born of water and time and natural erosion (most limestone caves) they grow and expand and many develop a circulatory system from the underground streams that can be found inside. They also breathe. Barometric pressure from the outside either forces air in or draws it out.. depending upon if it's falling (air in) or rising (air out). Depending upon the size of the various chambers/grottos/rooms/passages some caves can have very strong "winds", particularly at the entrance(s). For example Lechuguilla Cave in Carlsbad National Park N.M. has winds that blow out at roughly 60 mph. The cave has huge, vast chambers and well over 115 miles of passage and is currently *the* _deepest_ in the U.S. at 1567.91 feet and 89 miles of passage (compare to Mammoth Cave System in KY which is 349 miles but only 377 feet deep). At the end of their cycle they'll dry out when the water table lowers or simply disappears and the formations and passages dry up and become fragile and what we call a dead-cave. Natural erosion over millions of years can cause caves to open up and lose their humidity level (which is always constant depending upon the entrance size) and the cave dries up as well that way. 
As long as the cave(s) have passage openings large enough for a human being to pass through then cavers (including myself) will go as far as the cave allows. The tightest squeeze I've done is around 6-1/8 inches (measured) that went for a mere 30 feet.. took me 25 minutes to get through that sucka. (see photo below of *that* passage's size for an example...that isn't me btw). 
What is exciting news in Utah caving now-a-days is that we may beat Lechuguilla's depth sometime in the next few weeks/months. More on that later. 
Yes, I've rappelled down into pits and landed in pools of water... mostly ankle to calf deep (and yeah it was COLD). Caves maintain the same temprature all year round despite the outside air temprature. They can be as warm as 68 degrees to as cold as 31 degrees depending upon the altitude... the higher the colder. We have several caves (in Utah) which either have *ice* deep inside or snow at the bottom of their entrance drops all year round. 
My personal depth record is -400 feet in a single drop and 1165 feet total cave depth. Yeah, it was a work out alright on both occasions. I've done 20 hour trips in a single cave (going both ways) not including the hikes getting to them. Before it occurred to me I always struggled whenever I went then realized a number of years ago how I could apply my MA training in my movement, energy conservation/usage, balance and concentration in what I am doing at the moment. Found out that it made a world of difference. 



			
				Shodan said:
			
		

> My brother is a geologist/hydrogeologist and he runs across mine shafts and such all the time in his work- he said he'd love to explore some of them if he had the equipment/know how, etc.
> Very cool stuff- :asian:  :karate:


As mentioned before go to www.caves.org and look up organizations then look up grottos and then click on your state and find the nearest "grotto" (aka club) to you (or your brother) and inquire within. They will have someone either designated as their training officer or a volunteer (like moi) to show the ..err ropes.   Fair warning they may seem stand-offish at first but they'll warm up. Reason for that is because grottos have been "burned" by folks just wanting to know where the caves were at and then telling everyone they know and eventually the caves suffer vandalism and/or someone gets seriously killed or hurt. It's not snobbery, it's common-sense ... go to www.darwinawards.com and you'll see that a few folks don't have it. 

Flatlander... me thinks you created a monster. ME! bwaha ha ha ha ha 
*ahem* right. Oh-kay any other questions...anyone? anyone? Bueller?


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## mj-hi-yah

I'll bite -vampfeed- here's my question:

Besides bats what, if any,  other creatures have you encountered in your caving expeditions?


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## MA-Caver

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> I'll bite -vampfeed- here's my question:
> 
> Besides bats what, if any,  other creatures have you encountered in your caving expeditions?


Well, other than the cute little buggers known as bats, I've encountered mostly insects; slow moving beetles, cave crickets, and flies and once a huge spider that rested upside down on a low ceiling that I happened to be crawling under, turned over on to my back to better fit myself and looked up and there it was just inches from my face, got me through that passage in a hurry it did, heh. 
Beetles, crickets and flies are primarily scavengers, eating off any carcasses of animals that happen to find their way in or were unfortunate enough to fall in after moving about around the entrance. Some of these creatures (rabbits mostly) survive their falls and die long deaths. 
Larger (live) animals I've seen have been a trout (got washed in), and a porqupine that had made it's home inside a small cave we were checking out. Luckily it was nestled into a too tight (for humans) crack and all we could do was just look at it looking at us and take pictures. 
Oh and rats... yes, rats. Wood rats to be more specific. They're also known as pack-rats. These are not the sewer rats or the type you  keep as pets or use as snake food. These guys are more akin to chinchillas, being very furry, even their tails are furry and itty bitty feet. They leave huge amounts of fecal and urine matter in some caves and their nests can be seen here and there (pic below). Seeing one is hard to do because they're very shy but when you do... it's more like awwww instead of ewwww. Wish I had pics of the creatures themselves... they are really cute. 
The creatures in caves the ones that I know are there but don't see are the microscopic creatures that live in an environment so fragile that bringing food in from the outside and leaving the crumbs is enough to permanently damage the whole eco-system of the entire cave. Sooo, we either eat our food (if needed) over a plastic bag and cart it out or eat before/after the cave. 

Sorry you asked because you got such a long winded answer?  :idunno: What can I say... I love caves. ... about (if not more) than MA.


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## mj-hi-yah

> Sorry you asked because you got such a long winded answer? :idunno: What can I say... I love caves. ... about (if not more) than MA.


Not at all Caver!  Believe it or not it's interesting  !  But no Yogi Bear?  Where's Yogi hanging out these days? :lol:  No snakes?   Pack rats (as in a pack of rats!) I'll need a pic first before I enter the cave! :uhoh:   Also, that's something about the crumbs!  It must be hard to control that from happening from the unknowledgeable...or are the caves regulated only with guides?


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## Shodan

Thanks for the interesting info. MACaver- I will pass on the websites to my brother.

  Speaking of my brother.....we were talking about a search and rescue (he is a volunteer with them) call he went on today and it got me thinking of a question for here......have you ever had any caving close-calls, people missing or other dangerous mishaps?  How long have you been caving or interested in caving?

  Thanks again-
                         Shodan


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## Ceicei

Shodan said:
			
		

> Thanks for the interesting info. MACaver- I will pass on the websites to my brother.
> 
> Speaking of my brother.....we were talking about a search and rescue (he is a volunteer with them) call he went on today and it got me thinking of a question for here......have you ever had any caving close-calls, people missing or other dangerous mishaps? How long have you been caving or interested in caving?
> 
> Thanks again-
> Shodan


MACaver is actually part of the S&R team.  He has assisted on some rescues.  I'll let him tell you the stories...

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Not at all Caver!  Believe it or not it's interesting  !  But no Yogi Bear?  Where's Yogi hanging out these days? :lol:  No snakes?   Pack rats (as in a pack of rats!) I'll need a pic first before I enter the cave! :uhoh:   Also, that's something about the crumbs!  It must be hard to control that from happening from the unknowledgeable...or are the caves regulated only with guides?


Okay finally I managed to contact some caving buddies of mine and they sent me these pics of the wonderful critters that I sometimes see. Pack-rats and cave crickets... oh and a Sallymander.  
Ok granted not all the pics show the critters IN caves per-se but I have seen them... just have to take my word for it.. the rats (note the furry tails) are photo-ed in cave. The crickets are generally much paler in color almost cream to opaque... sometimes they number in the hundreds ...
Enjoy


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## Ceicei

Those pack-rats are adorable!!!!

 - Ceicei


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## mj-hi-yah

Caver I must admit so long as you promise not to put wings on them they are very very very cute!  Now the bugs we have to chat about ewwwww to the crickets sorry spine tinglers they be! Sallymanders LOL cute how you say it, but I don't want no sally nothing like that crawling over my toes!  All in all though I think I could survive!  Thanks for the pics maybe you'll become part of our fifth grade science fair exhibit!  It's cool! :ultracool  Thanks for sharing!


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## MA-Caver

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by Shodan
> Thanks for the interesting info. MACaver- I will pass on the websites to my brother.
> Speaking of my brother.....we were talking about a search and rescue (he is a volunteer with them) call he went on today and it got me thinking of a question for here......have you ever had any caving close-calls, people missing or other dangerous mishaps? How long have you been caving or interested in caving?
> 
> Thanks again-
> Shodan
> 
> 
> 
> MACaver is actually part of the S&R team.  He has assisted on some rescues.  I'll let him tell you the stories...
> 
> - Ceicei
Click to expand...

Personally I've been caving for roughly 28 years. 14 of those years are vertical caving... Been teaching for 8-9 years. In that time I've had several (personal) close-calls which is just the nature of the "game". Just like with hunting, rock/ice climbing or anything else that is considered a "risk" sport. 

I *used* to be part of the Cave SAR team but am now semi-retired...meaning that if necessary then I'll be called out.. but only most likely if the rescue has gone beyond team limits (as far as man-power) or more than a day or two...which some (cave) rescues can last that long due to the inheirent difficulties that environment (sometimes) imposes upon the rescue efforts. I have participated in several (cave) rescues and have performed "self-rescues" (in cave) which basically means the SAR and county wasn't called because I was able to facilitate the means of helping the individual out on my own with the assistance of the others on the trip. 
To give a rescue story would take too long to go into here as I tend to be detailed once I get going on the subject. Remember folks MA is my _second_ biggest passion (please don't ban me, please don't ban me!  ). 
But we have a saying in the caving community... "Cavers rescue spelunkers". To give an example of this and I'm not intending to diss on the rescue efforts performed by County SAR (read sheriffs' dept.) but well... perhaps this will explain. 
Two seperate incidents involving two pairs of boys/scouts (venture scout age...14-18 yrs) in the same cave and in the exact same spot.
 Incident one: two boys go explore a well known tight passage. The smaller boy goes in first followed by a larger and heavier kid. The passage slopes downward. Now the human body tends to elongate when lying down on a slope greater than 20 degrees... this means you're skinnier going *down/in * than you are going *up/out*. Finding the passage is a dead end the boys turn around (in a small room) and start their way out... big boy first. Guess what? 
14 hours later the efforts of the county SAR (with Cave SAR as tech support) get the first boy out, two hours after that the second kid is out. I was there mainly as support personnel, shuttling gear and what-ever back and forth from the tight spot to the surface... and back again. This spot is a good 1/2 mile into the cave.
Incident two: Same spot, same circumstances, different kids. This time I happened to be one of the first on the scene (accidently as I was just visiting and was recognized by the incident commander when he arrived on the scene about the same time.  I, along with my caving buddy was sent in to see what I can do while the I.C. awaits the other members of the team to arrive and to set up the equiptment and begin their efforts. 
I reach the kid and in 45 minutes was able to get the kid out...by simply talking him through it and get him moving one-inch-at-a-time. Five minutes later the second kid was out... he was really small for his age. 
Points are: 1st. The kids were without their adult supervision in the first place and the blame rests with the adult who would've told them not to go into that passage in the first place had he gone INTO the cave with them.
2. Those who move through caves on a regular basis are like rock/ice climbers, they will know what will work better than those who train intermittedly for rescue purposes. Thus they should be used as a resource and first-responders to the scene. Cavers/climbers with medical training (even first-aid/cpr/emt) should be the ones performing the actual rescues with the other SAR folks as their support. 
Dammit I'm rambling again. 
I'll hush... 
One more   if one is going to be doing *any* type of activity on a regular basis; caving, rock/ice climbing, mountaineering, X-country skiiing, etc. etc. etc. it's a good idea to learn the most amount of first-aid necessary for such ventures as well as basic rescue techniques so that time isn't wasted on waiting for the pros to arrive. 911 should be called if there is a serious injury involved but having the necessary skills there to help the victim/patient goes a long way. 

Nuff said on that...  :asian:


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## kenpo tiger

Caver,

Are the crickets white because they lack sunshine? Plants do the same thing if deprived (fade or change color).

Great anecdotes. I don't think I'd be brave enough to go into a cave. I read the Nevada Barr series about a park ranger named Anna Pigeon (yes, that's her name -- she's fictional, so...) One of the books is about her participation in a search and rescue in a cave. That was my introduction to _real _caving. (I'm pretty sure visiting Howe Caverns and going through the grottoes on the Lebanon/Israeli border don't count.) Granted, since it's fiction, I wonder how much license the author took in her descriptions (people get killed by rock slides and falling into abysses).

My hat's off to you for having a love affair with such a dangerous and exhilarating sport! Be safe. KT


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## MA-Caver

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Caver,
> Are the crickets white because they lack sunshine? Plants do the same thing if deprived (fade or change color).


True lack of color pigment is a sign of a true troglodite or permanent cave dweller. They have no need for it, nor do they have eyes. They should not be considered albinos since they have no pigment at all. Albinos have pigment... white. 
I am suspecting (though I can find people more knowledgeable than I to say better) that color pigment varies with region or even sub-species. Rarely have I seen (cave) crickets on the surface during the day. They tend to forage at night... unless of course there's a dead bunny at the bottom of the cave they can feed on. 


			
				kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Great anecdotes. I don't think I'd be brave enough to go into a cave. I read the Nevada Barr series about a park ranger named Anna Pigeon (yes, that's her name -- she's fictional, so...) One of the books is about her participation in a search and rescue in a cave. That was my introduction to _real _caving. (I'm pretty sure visiting Howe Caverns and going through the grottoes on the Lebanon/Israeli border don't count.) Granted, since it's fiction, I wonder how much license the author took in her descriptions (people get killed by rock slides and falling into abysses).


 Visiting any place that has a total lack of sunlight counts... yea even unto a tour cave. For me visiting one of those is patronizing because duh! I know all that stuff dude/dudette.   
I haven't read any Barr books but I'll look 'em up. National Geographic makes a terrific video called the Mysterious Underground. Should be able to find/order it through the public library. Also check out the video version of the IMAX film Journey Into Magnificent Caves. I know one of the cavers in the film (Hazel Barton...she's a hoot to go caving with btw) and hearing the "behind the scenes" story first hand is really something. A lot of work goes into any IMAX feature.



			
				kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> My hat's off to you for having a love affair with such a dangerous and exhilarating sport! Be safe. KT


Awww shucks!   :angel:  I don't have to take that abuse from you... I've got dozens of people dying to abuse me... but thanks for the sentiment.

Thanks to Flatlander for allowing me to vent my passion.  :asian: 
I'll post more pics from time to time and be happy to answer any questions. 
 :asian:


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## MA-Caver

More critters:
A close caving buddy of mine found this rare Salamander and got a couple of pics of it and sent it to me as well as some other distinguished biologists (glad to be part of that group... whomever they are   ) But anyway this widdle fella is about 11 inches long and cute cute cute. I've asked as to why this particular species is so rare. Will update whenever I find out. 
Meanwhile enjoy.


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## Flatlander

Those are _really_ good quality pics, MACaver.


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## kenpo tiger

I'm amazed he was able to get so close -- or did he use a telephoto lens?  Whatever was done, adorable little guy, if you can call something almost a foot long adorable!

I just saw the vertiginous pics of you in the personal pix thread.  I'm just so glad I can share your thrills vicariously (as I said before) and not _really_ have to do that.  I just don't think I could.


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## MA-Caver

Well actually it's a she that took the pics, a hydrogeologist/caver friend of mine that was caving with her bf (also one of my best friends...that is a long romantic story in-of-itself ) and they spied the cute feller. 
Salamanders, particularly those who are cave dwellers (though they go out at night to feed) are generally sluggish in their movements and (in-cave) have no natural enemies and thus don't (usually) shy away from human intrusion. 
If left well enough alone it won't mind being the object of close-up photography. I suspect my friend was able to get inches away from the fella with no ill effects to either of them. She should've placed something in the picture for scale (a quarter or a pen or something). Just taking her word for it that is the size of the critter in the pic. 

That they're not usually shy of humans is good for us who love getting close but not personal with natural and animals and bad for them for the chances of meeting a sadistic idiot (ala Beavis/Butthead types) who might think it'd be fun/cool to torture the little beastie to death. 
I've seen the results far too often. In one cave a couple of fun-lovin-morons decided to do a public service and murder some 200 individual bats of a colony that roosted in a popular cave. They used bottle-rockets to stun the animals off the roof and a baseball bat to finish them off. They did it so often that day/night that they actually broke the (baseball)bat in two. They later bragged of their feat and that eventually led to their arrest and fines. Since then a gate covering the entrance of the cave has been built and the populations of this particular species of bat (listed as Threatened on the Endangered Species Act) has rebouned wonderfully to (at last count -- a year ago) over 600 individuals. Townsend Long-eared Bats _Corynorhinus townsendii_ - is the species. 
(See www.batcon.com)
Though I did not personally witness the aftermath of the (above mentioned) carnage I was disgusted none the less. It's one of the reasons why I concur with the philosophy of keeping cave locations secret until such a time that a person proves themselves that they care more about the cave and it's (natural) inhabitants than themselves. I can get other pics of what vandalism can do to an otherwise pristine environment. 
Meanwhile the pic of the Corynorhinus townsendii -is there for your enjoyment as well. These are my favorite species as they are cute cute cute.


----------



## Sarah

VERY COOL Pictures MACaver, have just seen them for the first time.....am very impressed!!


----------



## kenpo tiger

It burns me that people are so stupid.  Those bats will usually leave people alone.  The ones in my backyard do, and I suspect that, while they probably aren't like the ones found in caves, bats as a species have gotten a bad rap from Halloween and those lovely ghost stories we all love.


Take a bat to the bat batters.:hammer: :bomb: :cuss:


----------



## MA-Caver

Thank you. I read on another (caving) discussion board about the misconceptions of bats and rabies. The CDC determined that about half of 1% of bats are known to carry rabies. And the ones that do are usually dead or already dying on the ground (be it in a cave, attic, belfry, wherever!). There has been no recorded incidents where a person was bitten by a rabid bat. 
But still once that stigma is out it's awfully hard to get rid of. Centuries of old-world traditions of bats being beings of the underworld (pardon THEIR pun) and of vampires and harbringers of death or ill omens of being death's messenger. And then the discovery of a real vampire bat in Mexico... all that and then their (sometimes) ugly appearances doesn't help the fact that they are probably one of the most concentrated groups of mammals on the planet. Some caves have been counted as to holding anywhere between 15 to 20 million individuals in a single colony. 
Now think upon this. A bat will eat about 1/2 it's weight in insects (lets do mosquitos for example) every night. A bat averages anywhere between 1 to 1-1/2 to 2 ounces in total body weight...though some species like the Fruit Bat are larger and heavier. Think about how much a mosquito weighs, then think about how many mosquitos amount to 1/2 a bat's weight then take that number of mosquitos and multiply that by 15 to 20 million...each night and think about how useful those ugly, creepy creatures known as bats are. 



> From the website http://www.batcon.org/discover/species/naturalhistory.html
> Ecological and Economic Value Worldwide, bats play essential roles in keeping populations of night-flying insects in balance. Just one bat can catch hundreds of insects in an hour, and large colonies catch tons of insects nightly, including beetle and moth species that cost American farmers and foresters billions of dollars annually, not to mention mosquitoes in our backyards. _The 20 million free-tailed bats from Bracken Cave in Central Texas, eat more than *200 tons * of insects in a single mid-summer night!_
> Throughout the tropics the seed dispersal and pollination activities of fruit- and nectar-eating bats are vital to the survival of rain forests, with some bats acting as keystone species in the lives of plants crucial to entire ecosystems. Many plants bloom at night, using unique odors and special flower shapes to attract bats. The famous baobab tree of the eastern African savannas is a good example. Only bats approach from below in a manner likely to contact the flowers reproductive organs and achieve pollination. Of course they do so because the plant rewards them handsomely with nectar. This tree is so important to the survival of other kinds of wildlife that it is often referred to as the Tree of Life.


They undeservedly get a bad rap because of misunderstandings/misconceptions and just plain ignorance. Also from the same site/page: 





> Bats are, for their size, the slowest reproducing mammals on earth. On average, mother bats rear only one young per year, and some do not give birth until they are two or more years old. Exceptionally long-lived, a few survive for more than 34 years.



ID of bats below (should be) 
Ghost Faced Bat, Greater Bonneted Bat, Hoary Bat, and Spotted Bat. 
These all can be found on the website provided and are all indiginous species of the U.S.A.   enjoy
 :asian:


----------



## Flatlander

Wow!  Look at the ears on that one!  


MACaver, you are one cool dude.


----------



## Feisty Mouse

Huzzah for the bats.... I used to work in a bat lab, studying the sonar and flight patterns of bats. (We looked at the big brown bat, _Eptesicus fuscus_). They are fabulous creatures.

Too bad there wasn't a bat-protecting posse to knock some sense into the idiots who almost destroyed that colony....


----------



## Sarah

The second one down is so fluffy.....CUTE


----------



## MA-Caver

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Huzzah for the bats.... I used to work in a bat lab, studying the sonar and flight patterns of bats. (We looked at the big brown bat, _Eptesicus fuscus_). They are fabulous creatures.
> 
> Too bad there wasn't a bat-protecting posse to knock some sense into the idiots who almost destroyed that colony....


Well that's why they (USFS) placed a gate on that particular cave and it ticked a number of people off... they reopened it for a "season" and afterwards found more dead bats and then closed it off for good. Years later they were (politically) pressured to investigate the possibility of re-opening the cave and making it to a (wild) tourism cave where access is controlled and won't disturb the bats...we had one meeting and nothing more was heard about it.   


			
				Sarah said:
			
		

> The second one down is so fluffy.....CUTE


The Spotted Bat is probably (IMO) one of the most beautiful bats in the U.S. because of it's gorgeous black and white spotted coat. Been trying to find a better picture of the body...when I do I'll post it.


----------



## MA-Caver

*PAH! * (as we deaf people like to say)
Finally found something new and interesting to post here. This is off a website for geologist nuts and cavers love it as well. 
Caves are home to a myriad of formations, aka speleothems. Stalactites (hangy-downies) and Stalagmites (pokey-uppies) as well as draperies, columns and crystaline formations galore. 
Some of these are the cause of intense debates as to the origns. Here is an example. 



> *Helictite or Eccentric*
> Image (below): Helictites in  Buchan Caves in Australia. (© Mathias J. Duckeck)
> A speleothem, which changes its axis from the vertical at one or more stages of its growth. Helictites have a curving or angular form that looks like they had grown in zero gravity.
> The growth of helictites is still very enigmatic. Until now there is absolutely no explanation for how they formed, just a bunch of theories.
> One theory names the wind in the cave as main reason for the strange look. Drops hanging on a stalactites are blown to one side, so the dripstone grows into this direction. If the wind changes, the direction of growth changes too.
> This theory is very problematic, because wind directions change very often. The wind in caves depends on air pressure changes outside depending on the weather (see  Wind Cave). So the wind direction changes as often as the weather conditions outside change. But the dripstones grow very slow, several centimeters in 100 years. So the direction would change every fragment of a milimeter.
> A second problem with this theory is, that many caves with helictites never had a natural entrance.
> Another theory explains helictites with capillary forces. If the helictite has a very thin central tube where the water flows like in straws, capillary forces would be able to transport water ignoring gravity. This theory was inspired by some hollow helictites.
> The problem with this theory is, that most helictites are definitely not hollow.
> The way helictites are formed is still unknown. This is definitely the most interesting problem in speleology.


The picture below is a good representation example of what the article is talking about. I've seen gorgeous examples of these things and while weird and beautiful... they're extraordinarily fragile (like most speleothems). Once broken off... the mineral/crystaline structure makes it nigh impossible for anytype of adhesive to bond and thus repair them. 
Another reason why we cavers are sometimes anal about revealing locations.

More Speleothems to come... (gads I'm loving this...edukayshunal ya know? :uhyeah: )


----------



## raedyn

*eyes wide in awe*
*claps hands excitedly, eargerly sits down in front of MACaver, crosses legs to listen intently*


----------



## MA-Caver

On a cavers discussion forum (much like this one) this post was put up with a pic. I thought it was sooo cool. Someday I'll do the same I hope.   


> Hi - just wanted to take a moment to post a picture and some compliments for the great job Doug Feakes did on the wedding bands for Scott and I.
> 
> If there are any cavers out there contemplating tying the knot (and I'm not talking rappelling), you should really look into having these wonderful custom-made rings done... (or if you want to renew your vows and make it really special)
> 
> Our rings have beautiful formations, multi-layered passageways and "tunnels" to pop through, and best of all- when you stack the two rings one on top of the other, Scott's ring has a caver laying down reaching his hand down to the caver on my ring that is standing up and reaching a hand up to him....
> 
> Thank you so much Doug for such an amazing design and for carrying it out so flawlessly and quickly- these rings are so very special!


The pic is the best that the poster had to offer and thus same with me.


----------



## MA-Caver

Speleothem of the week: 


> Soda Straw(s) (-stalactite) or layman's terms... hangy-downies.
> Straws are dripstones pointing vertically downwards from the cave ceiling. They are very straight, thin and fragile. They are always hollow, the water is coming from inside, the outside is normally dry. They are formed by dripping water.
> Before reaching the cave, the dripping water went through limestone rocks and had time to solute small amounts of this limestone. But the ability to solute limestone depends of the CO2 in the water. Now the whole process goes the other way round, the CO2 leaves the water into the cavern air and so the water looses the ability to keep the limestone in solutiuon. The limestone gets solid again, forming small growing calcite crystals in the water.
> A drop at the ceiling is formed by water coming down a crack. When the water drop grows, there is a point where weight of the water gets too large for the surface tension and the drop falls down. But in the meantime the water looses carbondioxide (CO2) to the atmosphere of the cave. A small amount of calcite crystallizes in the water.
> The crystals are formed, where the CO2 gets lost: at the surface of the water. And they get deposited on every surface they get contact with. For a small drop on the ceiling, the surface gets contact in a circle around the drop, and thats exactly where the calcite is deposited. It forms a small circular rim, then a wall and later a tube.
> The crack, where the water enters the cave, is inside the straw. The water runs through the tube it built itself, forming a drop at the top of the tube, depositing another small amout of calcite, and falling down. This process continues until the water dries out or the path of the water gets blocked.
> Sometimes the straws become long enough to break because of their own weight. But thats really rare, as they can become severeal meters long. In most caves the straws reach the bottom first.
> Straws are dry outside, because the water runs inside. And it is also necessary for them to stay thin. As soon as water runs outside, this water would deposit calcite on the outside, the tube gets conic, the straw becomes a  stalactite.
> This may happen because of various reasons, but the most common is the blocking of the tube. Sometimes a little dirt or sand is transported by the water and gets into the tube, where it deposits and blocks the path. Sometimes calcite crystals grow inside ttube and seal it.
> And sometimes the water just changes its path. The feeding crack is not a single spot, but its a long crack along the ceiling. So if the water leaves the crack just a few millimeters beneath the old place, it will run down the straw on the outside.


Image 1: a schematic drawing of straws and a stalactite.
Image 2: a caver admiring a large group of straws over a pool
Image 3: another caver admiring a large group of straws 
Almost every cave I've seen has had soda straws. The longest one I've seen is well over two feet in length and happily it's far out of reach on a 15 foot+ ceiling.  I've also seen clusters that numbered in the thousands in once cave aptly named: Porcupine Cave.

photographic credits: Brandon Kowallis


----------



## shesulsa

Caver, this is just awesome.  I'm going to share this thread and the pix with my oldest son who is interested in speleology.

 Thanks for posting and sharing!  (jaw still hanging).


----------



## Flatlander

Man, MACaver, those pics are simply amazing.  I can imagine that to be actually down there in that environment would be absolutely surreal.


----------



## MA-Caver

Speleothem of the week:
*Stalactites*
Stalactites are dripstones pointing vertically downwards from the cave ceiling. Stalactites are deposited by dripping water. The drop is formed at the ceiling by water coming down a crack, hold against gravity by the surface tension of the water. When the water drop grows, there is a point where the weight of the water gets to large for the surface tension and the drop falls down. 
But in the time between two drops, some amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) goes from the water into the caves air. Whithout this CO2 the water is not able to keep all its limestone, and a tiny amout of limestone crystalizes at the ceiling. It first forms a ring around the drop, then a  soda straw. 
Normally after some time a little dirt or calcite fills the soda straw and forces the water to flow on its outside. This is the moment when the soda straw becomes a stalactite. 
The diameter and shape of the stalactite depends on the amount of deposited limestone and the amount of water. If there is very little water, it will flow rather slow and most of the limestone is deposited near the ceiling. This results in thick stalactites. If there is much water, the limestone deposition takes place all over the stalactite and it will be rather thin and long. 
Stalactites are always thinner than other drip stones, especially stalagmites, and have a pointy lower end. 

Most anyone that's ever heard of caves knows what stalactites are, even if they can't keep them straight from stalagmites. (Some useful associations are that stalactites hang "tite" while stalagmites hold "mite", or that stalactites are on the ceiling, stalagmites on the ground.)  Crystals of calcite in a soda straw are oriented longitudinally and grow downward, so lengthening the straw. Most soda straws, however, eventually conduct water along their external surface, as well, and there deposit radially oriented calcite crystals perpendicular to their outer surface. This leads to thickening of the soda straw into the classical "icicle" shape most people associate with stalactites. Internal flow may continue, but often ceases as external growth envelopes the former drip canal.


----------



## Flatlander

Not alive, yet growing.  And old.  How old are these things?


----------



## Lisa

MACaver,

Those pics are amazing.  I am really appreciating this thread.  I am learning so much about caving and have a new found facination for them.  Thank you so much.

Pleae keep them coming.


----------



## MA-Caver

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Not alive, yet growing.  And old.  How old are these things?


Boy did you ask the right question... okay... here goes.
When I first started studying caves (for fun) I learned at the time it was thought that some speleothems are millions of years old. However new research and geological studies show different. I googled it and was astonded by the technobabble of these guys. For example and break out your thinking caps (and a bottle of asprin)...


> http://karst.planetresources.net/speleothem_growth_climate.htm
> Variations of similar magnitude can be caused by changes of the partial pressure of carbon dioxide in the cave air. The rates decrease with increasing pressure, and deposition may even be inhibited completely if the supersaturated solutions have calcium concentrations below that of apparent equilibrium. As an example this apparent equilibrium is at 1.4 mmole/l for 10
> and a carbon dioxide pressure of 10-3 atm. in the cave air. Taken this all together, we conclude that growth rates are determined by many parameters in a very conflicting way. Thus an increase of growth rates caused by a climatically induced increase in soil carbon dioxide might well be counter- balanced by decreasing temperatures which reduce the growth rates.
> Not only the growth rates of speleothems but also their shapes depend on variables determined by climate. We present computer simulations for the shapes of stalagmites from the beginning of their growth until they have obtained their final stable equilibrium form (3). This shape follows from two simple principles: a) the growth is always perpendicular to the present surface, and b) the growth rates decrease with increasing distance x from the axis of the stalagmite. Fig. 2 shows the growth history of stalagmites which differ in their growth conditions only by differing initial surfaces upon which they started to grow. The lower curves represent the shapes
> of stalagmite for time intervals D T in arbitrary units. The upper curves show the stable equilibrium shape, which is independent of the
> initial surface. Note that the diameter scale is magnified by a factor of 5. The real shape is given by the dotted curves. In all these calculations it was assumed that the growth rate perpendicular to the present surface is given by *f(x) = f(0) exp(-l(x)/l )* , where l(x) is the length on the surface of the stalagmite from the drip point at x = 0 to x. It turns out that in this case the diameter of the stalagmite is D=2× l .
> The diameter of a stalagmite growing under constant conditions is furthermore given by *D2=4V/× (d × p[1-exp(-a T/d )] )* (1) where V is the volume of the feeding drop, T the time interval (in year) between two drops, d is the depth (in cm) of the water sheet covering the speleothem, and a is the slope of the deposition rate curve, represented by Fig.1. Note that the diameter does not depend on the Ca-concentration of the supersaturated solution. On the basis of the arguments above we will present simulations,
> which show how climatic variations can lead to various shapes. Decreasing water supply leads to conical shaped stalagmites, which often are encountered in caves. Increasing water supply gives club shaped stalagmites, whereas periodic changes in feed rates lead to periodic changes in the diameter. Thus studies of the stratigraphy of stalagmites might give supplementary information.
> The growth rate of a regular stalagmite is shown to be *W=1.17*106*(Ceq-c)(I-exp(-a T/d ))*d /T [cm/year]* (2) where c is the calcium concentration of the feeding water and Ceq the apparent equilibrium concentration in mole/l.
> This is valid for D>3.5 cm, the minimum diameter of a stalagmite. In combination with eqn. 1 we therefore can correlate growth rate and diameter, Which can be a useful information when selecting samples in a cave.
> The image at right is a Laser Scanning Confocal Microscopy fluorescent image of a stalagmite (image taken at The University of Iowa Central Electron Microscopy Facility). The light (bright) bands are fluorescent and the gray (dark) bands are non-fluorescent. These bands are believed to represent spring-to-summer (brigth) and fall-to-spring (dark) calcite growth.  Fluorescent growth banding allow us to identify yearly growth and thus generate absolute chronologies. Image height is approximate 0.6 mm.


Essentially what you're looking at (pic) is a cross section of a speleothem and you can see the microscopic growth rings. 
In layman's terms: (quotes are from a caver's discussion board when I posed Flatlander's question... 


> I know that soda straws can range with the amount of moisture. some can grow an inch in less than 20 years while some grow an inch in 100 years.





> I know new studies are being done to ascertian the age of various speleothems. I recall that years ago it was guessimated that some stals are millions of years old. But now the ages are ranging from several thousands to several hundreds of thousands years in age for the larger ones.
> I do know that much of the growth is factored by amount of surface water working it's way through the cracks, amount of minerals in the surface above the cave, etc. etc. etc. that helps determine the growth rate.





> A few months (documented) to probably tens of millions of years are good figures. Stal growth rates vary about as much as height spurts in teenage people. Just all depends.


So thus, why we are very careful when we enter caves and we sometimes keep cave locations secret or gate them. The damage is literally forever. I've seen caves gutted out within a year or less of their discovery and public announcement. Sometimes the damage is subtle taking dozens of years or decades. Cavers are not perfect... BUT I have seen caves where controlled by cavers (as opposed to Spelunkers and the general public) that they are still relatively pristine. Traffic and wear and tear and oops do make themselves apparent but it's gradual and not noticable unless one is trained or experienced to see it. 



			
				Nalia said:
			
		

> Those pics are amazing. I am really appreciating this thread. I am learning so much about caving and have a new found facination for them. Thank you so much. Please keep them coming.



You are most welcomed m'lady. Many thanks to Flatlander who started all of this.  :asian:  :asian:  :asian:


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## Flatlander

So, quite old then, in some circumstances.  Fascinating.  That's pretty old.


:asian:


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## Lisa

Oh, Okay... I get it.  If *X(f)=Y(D2)* and the present surface is *(-1 DOL)*....errr..or is it *X(D2)=Y*...no..no.. that wasn't it...ummmm.. well they are still pretty and I like them


----------



## shesulsa

I'm going to fail this class, I just know it, but I must say it is just too fascinating to drop!


----------



## Ceicei

I don't think MACaver is gonna test any of you on these formulas... at least I hope not!

- Ceicei


----------



## MA-Caver

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I don't think MACaver is gonna test any of you on these formulas... at least I hope not!
> 
> - Ceicei


True I wouldn't make a test with THAT... but the rope stuff ... well lets just say the caves themselves will test you... heh heh... 
Sigh, but it'll have to wait til someone gets caught up on their homework eh?


----------



## MA-Caver

Formation of the week: Flowstone (one of my favorites) 
Flowstone is perhaps the most common of all cave deposits, and is almost always composed of calcite or other carbonate minerals. It forms in thin layers which initially take on the shape of the underlying floor or wall bedrock beneath, but tends to become rounded as it gets thicker. Flowstone masses are often fluted with draperies at their lower end, as in the bottom photos. Impurities in the calcite may give a variety of colors to flowstone, such as the red (likely due to iron).
Flowstone forms from actively flowing water (rather than water squeezed through cracks) in which carbon dioxide is lost and carbonate material is deposited. This is the basic mechanism forming stalagmites as well, and the two often form together. 
*Personal note: I've seen flowstone in almost every *alpine* cave I've been in. Alpine being most caves that are above 5000 feet above sea-level. The formation becomes such a part of the cave environment that unless aware of them you can be walking, standing on it before you realize it. The stuff is like iron and can withstand a lot of traffic (boots, et al). Some flows I've seen are massive and others subtle and part of the cave floor. I also know of one cave where the stuff is a deep jade green in color. 

Note on one of the photos, I edited it to black out the other formations above/around the area which shows what flowstone looks like.


----------



## Flatlander

So, on the top picture, then, does it mean that water used to flow down that channel?  Do you usually find pools or streams in the places where you find these water formed things, or did it happen so long ago that the water is gone now?  What things about the cave's history can you infer from these formations?

Fossils, MACaver.  Got fossils?


----------



## MA-Caver

Flatlander said:
			
		

> So, on the top picture, then, does it mean that water used to flow down that channel?  Do you usually find pools or streams in the places where you find these water formed things, or did it happen so long ago that the water is gone now?  What things about the cave's history can you infer from these formations?


Pretty much that's the way most flowstone formations happen. Water dripping from the ceiling hitting the floor which may (or may not) been a smooth surface and "flows downhill" leaving calcite deposits on the way. 
From the size of the formations themselves we can infer that eons ago the area was saturated with lots of water. In Utah for example, now-a-days considered a desert state because of the relatively low annual rainfall compared to others, we can see from the caves and their formations that this wasn't so millions of years ago.  A lake that covered over 250,000 sq miles called Bonneville sat where Utah, Nevada and Idaho are now. The Great Salt Lake sits where it used to be... and yes Lake Bonneville might have been an inland sea, tetonic plate movements over the millenia drained the lake and pushed up the bedrock beneath and so forth and so forth. Whether if the caves were already present at the time of the lake or created afterwards is unknown (at least to me anyway... I'm only an ameteur geologist). The climate back then is also revealed as well. Heavier rains/snows were present then than they are now. This climatic difference also attributes to the large and plentiful formations found in many of Utah Caves. 


			
				Flatlander said:
			
		

> Do you usually find pools or streams in the places where you find these water formed things, or did it happen so long ago that the water is gone now?


 There are sometimes pools of water to be found. They are sometimes captured by what we call rimstone dams (next week's formations). And inside those we can sometimes find yet another, seperate formation known as cave pearls. 


			
				Flatlander said:
			
		

> Fossils, MACaver.  Got fossils?


Well are you thinking Dinosaur/Jurassic Park type fossils or are you thinking of the fossils you find in Limestone which created the self-same rock? A hike along the trail to one of the caves here you can find fossils of shells, snails and so forth... they're tiny or small, but you can see them. I know of one cave that has a huge (two hand spans wide) shell fossil in it. And I have seen the skeletal _remains_ of mammals in caves that are covered with a thin coat of flowstone, bats, rats, rabbits and one animal in particular that isn't positively identified because of the difficulty in getting to it and the fact that the remains are over 400 feet beneath the surface which requires extensive rope work to get down to.  But this is the remains not exactly fossils which are generally classified as remains turned to stone. 
I'm hoping to get a palentologist/caver down there some day to help ident the creature. 
One cave along the Utah/Nevada border has human remains from ancient Native Americans buried there. It's strictly protected and access is reams of paperwork of permits and etc. Because of my vertical expertise I was allowed to join a group wanting to explore the cave and study the remains... read: I was a sherpa that knew how to rig stuff not because I was a palentologist or anthropologist.  :idunno: mebbe I should've stayed in skool. 


Next week


----------



## Feisty Mouse

I have to read in here more.

One of my favorite parts of Mammoth Caves was the flowstone.  It's so beautiful.


----------



## MA-Caver

I'm planning to go back to one of my favorite caves as soon as NYFL season is totally over with :wink2: and take pictures. The cave has one of the largest flows in the entire west. I'll post here when I get them... it'll be a couple of weeks though.


----------



## Flatlander

> I know of one cave that has a huge (two hand spans wide) shell fossil in it.


 That's super cool. Fossils ROCK!


----------



## Feisty Mouse

Flatlander said:
			
		

> That's super cool. Fossils ROCK!


DUDE!  Fossils TOTALLY rock!


----------



## MA-Caver

Formation of the week: *Rimstone Pools or Dams*:
From one site:


> Rimstone Pools are formed by water flowing down a slope. A very thin layer of water on a rather big area has a large surface. Because of the large surface the water looses carbondioxide (CO2) to the atmosphere of the cave and as a result calcite precipitates.
> The flowing water has waves on its suface, caused by irregulities of the rock surface. Thin waves form the precipitated calcite into arcs or curves like the wind formes sand dunes. If there is a rim formed this way, the rim hold a pool of water.
> Still calcite is precipitated and accumulates on the water surface. When a larger wave occures the whole calcite is transported to the rim. It is clear, that most of the calcite is deposited on top of the rim.
> Rimstone pools can not only be found in caves. There are several famous pools all over the world. Such as Mammoth Hot Springs in Yellowstone National Park,  USA.
> But there is a big problen on the surface: growing plants (moss and leaves) disturb the calcite precipitation. So there are huge travertine deposits formed, but now pools. Lakes like in Plitvice are formed the same way but look very different.
> Rimstone pools on the surface are always build by thermal spring waters. The temperatur of the water kills the moss and allows the undisturbed growth of the rims.
> Sometimes the rims consist of calcite, but very often there are also several silicates (minerals consisting of SiO2).


My own personal experiences with this particular formation comes from repeat visits to some of my favorite caves. Sometimes you forget they're there because the water has dried up over the summer months only to be refilled by water dripping from the ceiling and condensation during a change in the weather. 
This formation houses yet still another seperate formation known as cave pearls. Those will be the featured formation of the week next time and it will be the last formation as I wish to switch the focus of the thread to yet another aspect of caving... vertical.  
For those still wanting to know a bit more about how these beautiful speleothems form and types try these links.
http://www.caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/V65/v65n2-Self.pdf
http://www.goodearthgraphics.com/virtcave.html

This is also my *1000th post*. I am surprised that I've been here that long and done that many. True much of it was non-MA related (such as pictures and such) and other discussions... I still feel a part of this and a part of the MA community here. I have made some good friends here and (to my humbled surprise) even a small fan-base. I have to give credit to Ceicei who led me to this site, (ok, ok I was looking over her shoulder and asked "what's this site?"), but she still deserves the credit none-the-less. Big Hugs to her. 
It's been fun being here and I look forward to more. I've learned quite a bit and am glad to teach in return what knowledge I have. 
I am honored to know each of you and to call you friends.  :asian:


----------



## Sarah

MACaver said:
			
		

> This is also my *1000th post*. I


*YAY RALPH....YOU ROCK!!!!!*


----------



## Lisa

Ralph,

 First off, congratulations on hitting 1000!  That is truly awesome.

 I personally would like to take this opportunity to thank you for all the time and effort you have taken to educate us less knowledgable people on caves and caving.  I have enjoyed learning about them and the pictures are so incredibly amazing that my initial "I ain't getting on a thin rope" attitude has change dramatically to "where do I sign up!" 

 Keep it going please.  Onward and Upward Ralph!....errrr... I mean Vertical!!!


----------



## shesulsa

Ralph, I already said it on the other thread, but since this one is all about you and your specialty, YOU SO TOTALLY ROCK!!

 Thanks so much for being here on MT, for sharing your passions and for being who you are.  I hope to meet you someday.

 Sincerely,

 Georgia


----------



## MA-Caver

Nalia said:
			
		

> Ralph,
> 
> First off, congratulations on hitting 1000!  That is truly awesome.
> 
> I personally would like to take this opportunity to thank you for all the time and effort you have taken to educate us less knowledgable people on caves and caving.  I have enjoyed learning about them and the pictures are so incredibly amazing that my initial "I ain't getting on a thin rope" attitude has change dramatically to "where do I sign up!"
> 
> Keep it going please.  Onward and Upward Ralph!....errrr... I mean Vertical!!!


I'm not 100% sure how I'm gonna do the vertical section of this but it'll rock just as well with pics that'll either make you go whoo-hoo or OMG! 
Actually as a caver... we'd prefer to go onward and DOWN-ward...heh heh :lol: 
I'll have sign up info in a bit. Thanks for the enthusiasm. 
With Vertical you'll see more of how Martial Arts training comes in handy.



			
				Shesulsa said:
			
		

> Ralph, I already said it on the other thread, but since this one is all about you and your specialty, YOU SO TOTALLY ROCK!!
> 
> Thanks so much for being here on MT, for sharing your passions and for being who you are. I hope to meet you someday.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Georgia


Aww... me two...wait a minnit... I've already met myself...
not a bad guy actually. 
 %think% 
Umm, Hope to meet you too.. ya, that's what I meant.


----------



## KenpoTess

Congrats MACaver~!


----------



## MA-Caver

Cave Formation of the Week: *Cave Pearls *


> Pearls are a concentric concretion found in shallow cave pools. They can be spherical, as in the lower photo, or cylindrical, elliptical, and even cubical. They range in size from barely larger than a sand grain up to golf-ball sized. In the tropics, large beds of them may be found.
> Cave pearls form when water dripping into the pool loses carbon dioxide and precipitates calcite. This precipitate usually forms around a nucleus of sand, bones, or fragments of soda straws or rafts. The typical roundness is due to the uniform growth of the pearl, not to any sort of rotation due to dripping. A sphere allows the greatest amound of deposition for the smallest surface area and is thus most likely, even if the nucleus is highly irregular. The dripping causes vibrations in the pool which may prevent the pearls from cementing (with calcite) to the pool floor, though many pearls are found cemented in. Sometimes excess precipitate will form cups or nests around the pearls, like in the photo on the bottom.


If I had a photo I'd post it... One cave pearl I've seen was black. Very, very rare and not all that easy to get to in terms of traversing the cave to see it.  Other pearls I've seen are similar to what you are looking at (below), which are gorgeous pictures by the way... best I've seen of these type. 
Many I've seen are cemented to the floor as in the last photo because the level of water has dropped or dried out and then later as water precipitates down to the floor and hits the formation it doesn't turn over like normal and thus becomes part of the floor permanently. 
What bums me out is there is no scale reference to the pictures (below). Some pearls are large ... ranging from an inch in diameter and others are small ... like a BB or a bead. Some "nests" are full of pearls and others may have a few. Lots of variations that cause these... err variations. But gorgeous none the less. 

See ya'll next week!  
Next week we start on Vertical... can you say whoo-hoo! ?? I thought you could.


----------



## Lisa

MACaver said:
			
		

> Next week we start on Vertical... can you say whoo-hoo! ?? I thought you could.


 WHOO-HOO!!!


----------



## MA-Caver

Vertical Caving. 
This (to me) is probably one of the coolest, most exciting part of caving.  Most people have experienced some rock climbing or done some type of rope work; like rappelling for example.  But very few (outside caving) have actually gone down inside the earth and climbed back up out of it after hours of exploring inside. 
My first time (after several weeks of above ground training) absolutely blew me away and I was just hooked on it. In-so-far I've accumilated well over 35K feet of on rope experience in the last 12-14 years. While I've been caving (off and on for the past 25+ years I've only been vertical for nearly half that long.  
I have trained several dozen people in the past 10 years and enjoyed watching them grow and gain experience as I continue to do. 
While I don't like calling it sport... I have looked at it that way on occasions... "yo-yo-ing a pit for exampel which means basically going up and down the same hole more than once just for the fun of it. It can be one of the most hazardous of outdoor activities known. Rescue from deep within a cave can take days instead of hours due to the logistics involved, especially vertical caves. 
My classification of a "vertical cave" is any void in the earth requiring the use of a harness and vertical gear.  This "class" will cover descending methods and ascending methods, various types of ropes, knots used by cavers, different techniques and some antecdotes of  my own and others' experiences underground "On Rope!".  I also will apply how I use Martial Art skills and techniques to various aspects of going underground. (in keeping with the format of this forum  )

Disclaimer: I call this a "class" because it is my intent to educate the non-caver of our methods of exploration. This is by no means a way to learn the how to's. If you are truly interested in learning then look for a Grotto via the National Speleological Society (NSS) at www.caves.org 

Going Down: 
These are several of the items that we use to go down the ropes in caves. 
In order: A Bobbin,  Figure 8,  A Rack. These are the most popular devices used in the U.S. Europeans tend to use the Bobbins more than anything else. 
I'm still searching for pics on the web on how a Bobbin is used.  While many folks I know swear by them, I personally don't like them. It's a personal preference and not anything bad or negative about the device itself.  I normally use an 8 for short drops of anything between 10 to 100' depending upon the cave/drop. And a rack (shown threaded) for drops ranging from 50 to 300 feet or more.  Each of these devices use friction to vary the speed a person slides down a rope. They are generally made of aluminum and some are of steel and there is a growing trend to use titanium for it's strength and extreme light weight. 
A Rack (IMO) allows the user far more control of the rate of descent by varying the space between the "bars" (horizontal ones in the pic) and more surface area is spread out on contact with the rope thus the amount of heat transfer is less. 8's are excellent devices for the shorter drops because they're less likely to get heated up ... if the user goes slow.  Nylon ropes are not receptive to heat and any of these devices can heat up fairly quick if they are used in a fast drop.  If for example a person is zipping down at a rate of 5-10 feet per-second an 8 can heat up hot enough to melt the outer sheath of a rope and even through the inner core.  
Slow and easy is the ticket, plus the benefits are rewarding in that 1. you get down alive, 2. catch some neat stuff on the way down that you otherwise would've missed, 3. Make the enjoyment of the trip last a little bit longer, 4. and make the lifeline (rope) last a lot longer as well. 
My MA training has taught me a lot about balance and center of gravity and the applications to going down (and up) on a rope makes a world of difference.  Since rappelling is nothing more than a controlled free-fall, balance helps out in keeping one oriented enough to be in more control of the rate of descent. Brain training and awareness training from MA applies here as well. Being aware of any and all safety factors from the knot in the main anchor to ensuring that your harness is put on and tightened correctly and securely, to ensuring that there is nothing that is going to unexpectedly drop down on you (though that does happen from time to time...which is why we love wearing helmets). 
My present room-mate and long time caving buddy had the experience of dropping down a 280 foot entrance drop when approximately 100 foot down the drop a large boulder smacked him on the back of the helmet and tore his light off before continuing down the drop. He was stunned and bloodied (required 9 stitches in his scalp) but managed to stay alert and concious enough to faciliate a "self-rescue" and get himself up and out of the entrance pit. More on this later.  I've had close calls of rocks and other debris falling on me and it's my awareness training that I feel really helped because I'm constantly looking up, down, and all around me while I'm rappeling.


----------



## Lisa

MACaver,

 Verticle caving sounds fascinating.  EVERYTHING you have described in this thread sounds fascinating actually .  Please excuse my ignorance but when descending down the cave I am presuming that you need continuous rope to make it all the way down, meaning no knots in it to join two together .  How far is the farthest drop that you have done and do you have pictures?  What about your other cave enthusiasts?  What is the farthest that they have gone?  Do you have any big cave drops coming up?  How long to the ropes last before they need to be replaced?  Are they only made of nylon and why?  And what about air quality deep in the caves?  Is there a funky smell?  

 I know there are a lot of questions, but inquiring minds want to know 

 Lisa


----------



## MA-Caver

Nalia said:
			
		

> MACaver,
> Verticle caving sounds fascinating.  EVERYTHING you have described in this thread sounds fascinating actually .  Please excuse my ignorance but when descending down the cave I am presuming that you need continuous rope to make it all the way down, meaning no knots in it to join two together .  How far is the farthest drop that you have done and do you have pictures?  What about your other cave enthusiasts?  What is the farthest that they have gone?  Do you have any big cave drops coming up?  How long to the ropes last before they need to be replaced?  Are they only made of nylon and why?  And what about air quality deep in the caves?  Is there a funky smell?
> I know there are a lot of questions, but inquiring minds want to know
> Lisa


Woah there Turbo.  
Questions answered below. But first I found more info on the Bobbin and I'd like to share that.  A caver created a website that covers just about every device used vertically by other cavers and has extensive history on each. Dr. Gary Storrick. This is what he had to say on the bobbin device. http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Rappel/BobbinPages/BobbinComments.html

Ok on to the Q & A:


			
				Nalia said:
			
		

> I am presuming that you need continuous rope to make it all the way down, meaning no knots in it to join two together


Usually we have a length of rope suited to the depth of the drop. However ropes have a nasty habit of accumulating weight the longer they get.  In Utah with it's (oft steep) mountain terrian that is quite a bother...considering one is also carrying anywhere from 15-25 lbs of personal caving gear to boot.   We will usually try to have one single length as long as it's practical to carry. One fella has a 400' single length and it's a good 45 lbs. I, myself, own a 300'er and it gets kinda hefty after about a mile or two hiking uphill with several more miles to go. We do tie ropes together when we have to. One such cave no-one knew the depth of a virgin drop and rope was guessimated and used and it was not enough so additonal rope was brought in for the next trip...that wasn't enough, til finally they reached the bottom. This was the beautiful 300' freehanging Fantasy Well in Neilsens Cave (-880'). 
Pic below is one of the ways we tie two ropes together.  Yes, it's strong enough. 


			
				Nalia said:
			
		

> How far is the farthest drop that you have done and do you have pictures?  What about your other cave enthusiasts?  What is the farthest that they have gone?


 My deepest to date is -400' (thereabouts) on a single drop. I average a lot less than that. I do have pics but not immediate.  My roomie/caving-bud and I went to do this deep shaft (my 400'er) and he managed to reach the bottom which is about -710'. We dropped Calyume light sticks down the shaft the night before and thus he brought them back up... so he made it alright.  


			
				Nalia said:
			
		

> Do you have any big cave drops coming up?


I want to arrange a trip to drop down the same shaft (again) with the intent to reach the bottom myself.  Logistics right now are the only thing inhibiting this particular goal.  Perhaps in the spring. 


			
				Nalia said:
			
		

> How long to the ropes last before they need to be replaced?  Are they only made of nylon and why?


As with anything, ropes will have a long life provided that the owner takes care of it. My present ropes have been around for a while. They are due for a replacement but they should have a good life for another two or three years. 
Nylon has properties desired by many vertical sport enthusiasts; cavers, rock/ice climbers use nylon ropes because of the strength that nylon has. 





> Rope is one of the most important pieces of equipment. Therefore it needs to exhibit a number of very different characteristics. It is the combination of core and sheath designs that creates the balance of dynamic load absorbing ability, abrasion resistance and the overall strength necessary to give each climbing rope its desired performance characteristics. Caving/climbing ropes are built using kernmantle construction. The basic strength of a climbing rope is in its core (kern). The combination of mechanical and physical elongation of the nylon fibers allows a climbing rope the ability to absorb the energy of a falling climber. The core of a dynamic rope consists of individual core strands twisted clockwise and counterclockwise. These opposing twists help to minimize excessive spinning when lowering, abseiling or ascending.
> A climbing rope's sheath (mantle) can be made in different thicknesses and braid patterns to achieve desired durability and handling characteristics. A thicker sheath will give greater durability and increased abrasion resistance. A thinner sheath can be used when a lighter weight rope is desired. A tightly braided sheath will slip very little on the core but adds stiffness to the overall flex of the climbing rope. A loosely braided sheath creates a rope that is more flexible and easier to handle, but allows more sheath slippage.
> A rope must be able to absorb the energy of repeated falls and withstand fierce abrasion





			
				Nalia said:
			
		

> And what about air quality deep in the caves?  Is there a funky smell?


Most of the funky smells comes from Caver sweat and farts. 
Air quality in caves are generally very good. Barometric pressure from the outside helps move air in and out of caves via their openings. Thus the quality is refreshed frequently.  In cases where caves have a high degree of organic matter at their lower-most limits then the quality of the air can be reduced due to decomposition/decay of said material (dead trees/leaves, etc.) and carbon dioxide is present instead of oxygen/nitrogen.  Funky smells have also been attributed to the presence of bat/rat urine and fecal matter. One becomes accustomed to it or ignores it. 
Anecdote: Boomerang cave is one of my favorites as it is a multi-pitched cave that reaches over 300'. The entrance drop is a gorgeous 130+ foot freehanging pit that is likened to rappelling the inside of a coke bottle.  One trip I was one of the first ones down and about 30 or 20 feet from the bottom I indeed noticed a "funky" smell. I continued down and got off rope and stood there for a moment looking around wondering "what is that smell" (gag). I looked everywhere then finally shifted my weight and yeeech... found that I was standing in the middle of a dead skunk that had fallen in probably a week before. There was no martial arts move/thought/application that could counter that!! EWWWWW!


----------



## MA-Caver

*Vertical Caving:* Going up. 
Ok, ya'll got the basics of how we get down in those holes but now on to how we get out of them. 
There are dozens of different ways to get out of a cave. Freeclimbing however isn't one of them... well mebbe for something like six or eight feet and lots of good hand/foot holds.  
For a long time cavers in the 40's and 50's used either rope or wooden ladders to get in and out. Crazy I know but it's what they had. And even then they rarely ventured down more than 50 feet or so.  Then the advent of stronger rope and stronger (steel) cables came into play and cavers were able to plumb depths well over 200 feet. A belay rope was used to catch the caver in the event of a fall.  While this method is being phased out it is still being used here and there. I myself have used it only once or twice and didn't think much of it.  
Meanwhile in Europe; the Prusik knot was invented in 1931 by Dr. Karl Prusik and was described in an Austrian mountaineering manual describing it as an ascending knot. Cave explorers used this widely and as the mountaineering techniques found their way here to the states, in 1952 a caver by the name of Bill Cuddington tried them out and advocated their use. Prior to this innovation, all vertical work was done by block and tackle hauling, or simple hauling without the aid of mechanical advantage and ladders. The sheer bulk and weight of block and tackle rigs as well as the bulk of ladders became a significant limiting factor in the successful exploration of deep caves. Cavers were now able to go deeper because of the more efficent way to exit. I mean, that's the whole point right? Why go down so deep that you can't get out?  By the 60's and 70's the invention of mechanical ascenders (below are modernized versions but the design is basically the same) which are nothing more than the mechanized versions of a prussik knot, greatly enhanced the field of vertical caving.  Caves with deep drops were "pushed" and new depth records were created. 
Next up we'll discuss about the harnesses and types of ropes used and a wee bit of the history there. Then move on to types of ascending systems. 
 :asian:

Pics: Cable Ladder, Prussik knot, hand ascender, croll and basic ascender


----------



## MA-Caver

This is a website that a caver dad set up for his daughter. Looks like she might be in it for life. She's already been put in several newspaper articles and magazines for kids. Kinda cool I think. 
http://www.coloradocaving.com/


----------



## Flatlander

> Cave Formation of the Week: *Cave Pearls*


Weird, man.  I would have never guessed that such a thing could exist.  Ralph, you are a fascinating fellow.  I'm so glad I started this thread.  I'm even happier you keep it rockin'.


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## Lisa

MACaver,

 This is such a cool thread  and explaining the whole entire process is making me a little less edgy about trying it out some day.  You know how knowledge is power?  It is funny that your post is how to get out cause the other day while driving home from work, I started thinking exactly that! LOL!  

 Thanks again and keep it coming please!!!


----------



## MA-Caver

Ok continuing with the lesson. 
Ascending is the way we get out of a deep pit. Climbing on the rope. The individual parts have been shown but how are they all put together? 
Pic 1. shows one configuration. This can be modified to suit the user and adjusted as shown in Pic 2.  This particular configuration is known as the *Frog* system a "sit-stand" method. The caver attaches the units to the rope and then begins by sitting down and taking up the slack til the rope tensions on the anchor above. Then they stand up and the ascender that is pulled up the rope via the "chest-harness" and the whole process is repeated, (Pic 3)til the caver is topside or where they want to be.  
For Europeans this is *the* standard method, in the States it's one of the most popular but there are dozens of variations... too many to go into here. 
Pics 4 & 5 show another configuration that is popular because some folks are top-heavy and find it difficult to support their upper body weight. 
The rope is attached via ascenders on the foot (Pic 5) and through a roller on the chest (Pic 4). There is a third ascender attached to the seat harness and that is called the safety and rest ascender. The foot ascenders have a bungee cord attached to them and that cord is run up over the front of the chest harness and it is used to pull up the ascender when the caver takes a step. 
Basically after all the slack is taken out of the rope and tensioned at the top and bottom (easier than it sounds) and the caver basically just lifts one foot and steps and then the other and essentially just walks up the rope. Thus the name Ropewalker.
I use both *Frog* and Ropewalker systems ... depending upon the cave. The Frog I can use for basically any cave and depth, but normally I use it for drops between 25 to 150 feet. On deeper stuff I'll use my ropewalker system. 
Both offer great Cardio and aerobic work outs. You're basically pulling your own weight up the rope. If done correctly your legs will be doing most of the work but some drops (another post) will require the entire body to be put to use.


----------



## Tgace

Ive done sport climbing for a few years...done the rappelling, ascending, protection/ropework thing, but you cavers are a whole other level.....whats your estimate on gear outlay??


----------



## MA-Caver

Tgace said:
			
		

> Ive done sport climbing for a few years...done the rappelling, ascending, protection/ropework thing, but you cavers are a whole other level.....whats your estimate on gear outlay??


I tell my beginner students to anticipate spending roughly anywhere between $200 to $250 and count on the stuff lasting for YEARS afterwards if they take care of it, this is including helmet, harness and hardware (carabiners, decenders and ascenders) and soft ware (webbing and cordage). Figure another $12 to $70 bucks for the headlamp. 
I have some pieces of gear that's between 10-14 years old. So the long term investment is well worth it as they pay for themselves.  I've gotten a lot of use out of much of my stuff and for me that is a bonus. 

(Vertical) Cavers have grown over the last 30-40 odd years and have adapted a lot of techniques from outdoor climbing guru's. But yeah, it has evolved to it's own level due to the radical differences with the contact of the rock surfaces.  What I find interesting is that Rock/Ice climbers are becoming more attracted to SRT (Single Rope Techniques) because of the energy saving methods we use.


----------



## MA-Caver

SRT Continued. 

Rigging: <disclaimer> This is just to outline how and why we do things the way we do. There are numerous details that will not be added here as it would take Gigabytes wink1: ) of poor Kaith and Bob's server space to do it. These lessons are by no means intended to be tried without adequate training and supervision by an experienced climber/caver.  These lessons are merely for the layman to better understand caving and for the "arm-chair" caver who may never enter one but has an idea of what's involved. 
-------------------------------
Cave rigging gets much of it's methods from both Rock Climbing and Alpine Mountaineering techniques with a few differences added in to suit the situation. 
With the erosional features found deep within caves there are numerous of ways to rig a rope. There are also many things to watch out for during the rig as not everything is as it seems and because cavers climb directly on the rope instead of the rock the danger of damage to the rope is increased, so special care must be made. 
Many caves I visit rarely require the use of a pad. This is to say that the rock face is worn so smoothly that there's little danger of a rope being cut by sharp edges. However, this assessment must come after careful examination along the entire length of the drop to ensure that there is no danger. But even then it's hard to spot. 
Several times I've been on a trip where things looked okay on the way down, only to find the rope severely worn on the way back up.  Scary stuff to be sure... particularly when there's anywhere between 100-250 feet of open space below you.  So pads are required. Some are totally wrapped around the rope_Fig. 1_ and others are as simple as a piece of carpet or the trouser leg off a pair of old blue jeans laid flat on the rock and the rope goes over it. Basically anything that puts space between the rope and the rock and eliminating damaging rubs. 
Sometimes this is not always possible ... or just too much trouble so a rebelay is in order _Fig. 2_, belay is the French word for *Safety*.  These can be simple or relatively complex _Figs. 2 & 3_. Point is to minimize damage to the rope or life-line. Rigging stuff for rescue work is even more complex due to the number of ropes needed and the complexity of some haul systems. 
Drilled anchor bolts _Fig 4_are most commonly used for "permanent" or "semi-permanent" fixtures in caves.  We use these when there are long term projects going on or it would be much safer or simply no other choice. The idea is to minimize impact to the (cave) environment and if we can we'll go without and use some of the rig methods that are shown in _Fig. 5_ among others. Thes rig points are sometimes called natural anchor. 
One of the things one has to watch out for when choosing a particular "natural anchor" is to look for any obvious fractures in the rock surface. Or if the area is surrounded by a thick coating of mud which is sometimes the case and ones to avoid. What appears to be a "bomb-proof" rock may be just sitting on a coating of mud and the whole thing slides off with you on the end of it all, looking like Wilyee Coyote waiting for it all to come down on top of you, tiny umbrellas not withstanding.
 I've rigged dozens of caves on hundreds of trips and thanks to the training I've received never had a problem. On trips where there were "near-misses" the cave was pre-rigged and numerous trips before ours caused the damage. This was taken care of by simply re-rigging the rope(s) and informing the owner of the damage.  No blame is cast as it is something that has to be dealt with on this type of activity/FUN. 

More to come. 

p.s. the drawings are not mine... downloaded from various caving sites... (public domains)


----------



## MA-Caver

We pause for this station break: 
I finally managed to take Byron to his first cave ever! He had a total blast. These are the pics of him in Spanish Moss. He did sooo well there, all that training before hand really paid off. There were one or two spots where he was sketchy about free climbing but with patience and encouragement he did them well. 
He loves to climb, no question, but being in a dark environment and that head lamp being the only light he had (among ours) he worked his way up and down fairly easy climbs (well, they're easy to me anyway   ). But once having done them then over time they become easy. 

What helped me (and I hope helps this Kenpo Jr. Brown Belt) is realizing by applying the understanding that practice makes perfect whether in Martial Arts or in Caving or driving a car.  I recall on those very same climbs how sketchy they were to me, I used to freak out so bad in my early days of caving because I thought I was going to die. Now I go up those things without a second thought. I _still _do them safely and carefully (I'm getting old :wah: ) but now-a-days  :idunno: what's the big deal huh? 

Anyway here's Byron having a great time. So glad the pics turned out with a simple point-n-shoot-disposable.
1. Byron peeking out behind a set of massive columns. Above him are long stalactites. This portion of the cave is interesting for one reason as parts of it are bone dry and others are wet and slick (light and dark areas). 
2. Group photo. The fella sitting in the dark green and white helmet has muscular dystrophy <sic> and he did really well considering. He "practiced hard for a week" so he could do this cave. 
3. This shot was Byron's idea. I had to literally verbally guide him through all those delicate stuff (do-able but gotta follow instructions exactly). The look on his face of course says it all. That impish grin. 
4. At the top of one of those "sketchy climbs" to his immediate right there's an exposed 12 foot drop. I had him stop and pose here to distract him from the "gaping maw" next to him.   hey, it worked didn't it? 
5. "On Rope" and heading out. This was his first ascent in many ways. First in a real cave, first in his brand new Christmas present (harness) and first long drop (relatively speaking) as he's only done maybe 15-20 feet at the most. This drop is a little over 33 feet for the "free-hanging" portion (where's he at) and another 31 feet in a (then ) muddy twisty cork-screw.


----------



## Ceicei

Looks really good!  Thank you for posting these pictures of my son, Byron!

 - Ceicei


----------



## MA-Caver

Break out your 3-D glasses... found this caving site  which offers cave views in 3-D. If you got kids you should have a pair or so laying around. If not then try using some red/blue or cyan colored plastic and see if that works. Purty cool I think.


----------



## Ceicei

I finally got to go underground for the first time! I went on January 22, 2005, but it took me a while to compose the report as I was waiting for the pictures. I'll post a condensed version of my report on Monday for ya'll to read, entitled "A Beginner's View of Caving" with the subtitle, "How Kenpo Helps with Caving". I think it's cool that while I'm underground, the martial arts training transfers over to caving. I'll include some pictures also when I make the post. More to come!

   - Ceicei


----------



## Ceicei

Here is my condensed version.
​ A Beginner's View of Caving
  (How Kenpo Helps with Caving)

Part 1:  Preparing at Home​ January 22, 2005 

A gentle light flashing, its 6:00 a.m. I look at the alarm clock and turn it off and roll over onto my back, staring at the ceiling. Today is the day we are going caving! Lets see, we've got everything ready and packed. My 12-year-old son, Byron, and his best friend, Braydon, are asleep downstairs in the TV room. We need to pick up Ralph (MACaver)at 8:30 and meet Hank at 9. Yeah, there is plenty of time. I can sleep in for half an hour more. I reset the alarm. ZZzzzzzzzz. 6:30 a.m.  More gentle flashing light from the clock.  I get up and get dressed in layers of clothing to remain warm.  I put on two complete pairs of thermals and my stretchable jeans. (Ha! I love stretchable jeans! I learned about those from my martial arts friends. They werent kidding that a person can actually kick well wearing them!) Since Ill be doing a lot of climbing, I need stretching room with my clothes. I donned my black turtleneck and my yellow martial arts school t-shirt. Next comes two pairs of woolen socks and my steel-toed brown hiking boots. I add my thermalite gray jacket. Now Im all set!

Before I leave the room, I open a drawer to pick up my silver Universal Pattern Kenpo necklace. I put it on and tuck it under my t-shirt. Its a martial arts symbol showing multiple directions of motion. If Im going underground, I want to take something that reminds me to conserve energy in motion. I also put on a flat steel wristband showing an etched yin-yang symbol with a dragon on the left and a tiger on the right. On the inside of the wristband is my name. It will be my only form of ID while Im underground. Ok. If anything happens to me, people will find, Theres a martial artist. I shake my head, enough of this thinking. Im too nervous, not knowing what to expect, and very excited. Although Im aware of the risks, nothing bad is going to happen today. Today, its all for real! Weve practiced for weeks at an indoor climbing wall and a nearby canyon. Now well take what we learn and go underground.

I wake up my oldest son, Byron and his best friend, Braydon. They are also going caving with me. I make breakfast. I kiss and say good bye to the rest of my family. 

 It is a very foggy, cold morning with little visibility. We drive down to meet MACaver and his friend, Hank. They have the rest of the caving gear we need. We meet at the trail leading up to the mountain.

  Part 2:  The Trek Up the Mountain

We then start the trek up the rocky and very icy path through Rock Canyon. Snow is still there from the storm a few days before. The sun comes up, finally breaking the fog. The mountainside reveals her beauty, glowing in sunrise. I see some caves dotting along the sides. I didnt realize there are that many caves in Rock Canyon. Ralph says we need to get to the fourth footbridge before we get off the path and climb up the mountain. I see no running water in the river. Its all dried up, but I see a frozen waterfall on the mountainside. Fascinating! 

Fourth bridge, pah! Crossing over those small footbridges are trickytheyre covered with ice. At the bridge, I wait for Ralph and Hank. They pause to talk with a friend whos coming down the path. Byron and Braydon already are clambering up. Byron knows where to go. Ralph and Hank approaches then climb up too. I follow them. The climb is very slippery and approximately 60-70 degrees uphill. If I slip and lose my hold, there isnt much to stop me from tumbling all the way down to the path.

Part 3:  At the Cave Entrance

We finally arrive up to the cave entrance and put on our caving gear. Ralph proudly shows his point-and-snap camera. He and Hank are going to take pictures of us during this caving trip. Neat idea! Ralph and Hank check everyones gear to make sure everything is all fastened properly. Hank shows me the switch on my headlamp (two different lights, and one light can be dimmed). Before going in the cave, we all relieve ourselves behind some nearby trees. I look at my watch. By then, it is 10:45 a.m. The sun is warming up. The boys and I eat some beef jerky, granola bars, and sip from our drinks while Ralph ties one of his few ropes for us to climb down into the cave.

I took my first look at the entrance. Its so small. Somehow, I envisioned it would be bigger, the size of a walk-through doorway. This entrance is a hole just big enough for one person to crouch down and go in, feet first. Ralph leads, Byron, Braydon, me, and Hank. [Picture 1 shows Braydon in white helmet.] 

​      It's my turn going in. Now its just me, the harness with a figure-8 descender, and the rope. I see three lights below belonging to Ralph, Braydon, and Byron. I peer up to the entrance, the last vestige of sunlight. I wave to the light. Good bye until we come back. [Pictire 2 is me.]

Ok. Ive been training for this. My life depends upon the harness and the 8-ring descender. I slowly descend down while peering at the walls, trying to take in what I see. I land a little further than I should, next to the low man-made sandbagged wall, missing the narrow landing ledge. Braydon is there on the ledge and he extends a hand to me. I grab his hand and climb up next to him. ​


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## Ceicei

Part 4:  Exploring the Cave

 I recall Ralph telling me there is the attic and the basement of Spanish Moss cave. Byron and Braydon are already making their way up towards the attic (known as the Barking Beetle room). I find only one dead beetle. No other beetles, either alive or dead. I wonder if they bark. Maybe its too cold for the beetles. I follow soon after the boys. [Byron is wearing dark clothes and a blue helmet, Braydon has the white helmet. My gray jacket looks light blue under headlamp light.] 

 We free climb up some more among the flowstone and popcorn formations. Im fascinated by the popcorn formations. Theyre very smooth and resemble sandy-colored popcorn. [The popcorn can be seen on the right side of the picture. I am climbing up. Hank in the orange suit and red helmet is below me.] Some popcorn are very large and make good hand/foot holds. 

 At one point, my right foot got stuck in a crevice as I moved up and I could feel my toes pop. I forget Im not wearing my steel-toed boots. I gently move my left foot down so I can dislodge my right foot. I wiggle my toes, wondering if a toe is broken. I shine the light on my caving boot. No damage to the boot, so it is fine. I think my toes are fine too since I can move them. We pause to step up and look through a very small, short tunnel, only a foot or two in diameter and maybe four or five feet in length. I peer through one end and Ralph peers through the other end. We see each other. Hi! 

Ralph tells me to climb up some more into a narrow spiraling area. It is only big enough for one person at a time to go there. Aha! I see heavy, brown masses of tree roots hanging, the Spanish Moss. Amazing! Were not that far off from the surface and the roots of these trees manage to get down through the rocky crevices of the cave ceiling. So this is the reason for the caves name. I touch the walls near the roots. It is damp and slick. Thats how the roots get hydrated.

We climb back down to the Barking Beetle Room. Byron says, turn off the lights. We all turn off the lights. Pitch black darkness. I put my hand in front of my face. I cant even see my nose. There is nothing here visible for my eyes to adjust to and see. We turn the lights on again and go back down to the same place, the ledge, where we landed descending from the entrance. There is a low man-made sandbagged wall to prevent rocks from crashing downward and hitting the people and damaging the formations below. I see some of the rocks that the wall stopped. Some of them are huge. I wouldnt want to be hit by one, even if Im wearing a helmet!

Ralph ties a rope to the sandbagged wall. We climb over and use the rope to go down the incline. There is not of much interest to see on the way going down. Ralph mentions that at the bottom of the incline, there is a lot to see, many beautiful formations. We will be going to an area called The Subway Passage.

While waiting for my turn to go down, I sip from the drink I bought from the store. I briefly consider eating some beef jerky or a granola bar then decide I will do that later. It is my turn and I go down. I arrive to the incline bottom.


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## Ceicei

Part 5:  Seeing the Formations

 Wow!  I look at the walls and ceiling.  I observe that the stalactites were not just randomly spread around, but rather, following the lines of what are or used to be crevices.  I realize then thats how the stalactites were made with moisture coming from above and through the ceiling.  I had previously thought it was just trapped liquid on the ceiling that collects then drips (such as sometimes seen happening in an aquarium).   Most of the stalagmites are below the stalactites, sometimes touching together to make columns.   

 There are some formations called Quill Anthrodite and Sodastraw.  Im glad some pictures were taken of them!   They look so fragile.  It is so fascinating! I reach out to touch them gently.   It is very beautiful being underground!   There are also flowstone formations.  Byron and Byron got to stand behind some interesting columns, stalactites, and stalagmites for some pictures.  The boys then scramble further down and disappear from sight.[font=&quot][/font]


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## Ceicei

Part 6:  Rat Skat Crawl

Fortunately, some of the path inside the cave is marked with tiny reflector tabs, white going down and red going up. I follow the tabs. Ralph and Hank are still behind talking about and examining the formations, pausing frequently to take pictures.

I stop to look around while traveling between the larger popcorn formations. The popcorn formations are big enough to provide secure hold while climbing down. Space gets smaller and smaller. I no longer see the lights of the boys headlamps. Theyve disappeared again. At least the reflector tabs are there and they are leading to a very small hole. If the tabs are there, that means it is okay for people to go through this tunnel. I get down on my knees. This is the area called Rat Skat Crawl. I realize I cant go through on all fours, so I get down prone on my stomach. My backpack snags. I take it off and shove it in front of me. Ill have to push it all the way through. My head keeps banging. Good thing Im wearing a helmet. To get through better, I turn over onto my back. The ceiling is only a few inches away from my face. I wonder if any one has ever got stuck at this spot. I wiggle through for approximately 10 feet, pausing frequently to look ahead as this tunnel curves. It opens up to a space about the size of two combined house rooms. I find the boys in there lying on the ground. I join them and lay down too. We eat some beef jerky, granola bars, and sip from our drinks. Hank and Ralph finally join us. We pass the bag of beef jerky around to Hank and Ralph too. Hank takes a picture of us. [Ralph is in red suit.]


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## Ceicei

Part 7:  On the Way Out

 Were at the lowest part of the cave. We all turn off the headlamps for a short moment, enjoying the complete darkness. We turn the lights back on. I experiment with the lights by dimming and switching between two types of lights. I really like this helmet. Im thinking of getting one like it. After several minutes, we all reluctantly get up to go back through the Rat Skat Crawl. I repeat the same procedure, crawling on my back with the backpack pushed in front of me. We return back to the columns for some more group pictures taken by Hank as photographer. Ralph suggests a mother/son picture. Byron and I pose together.

The hard part will be climbing back up to the entrance. We arrive to the incline. Instead of attaching two ascenders (as we normally would when climbing straight up on the rope), we only need to use one on the rope to hold and walk our way up the incline. We do not need to hook the ascender to the harness. Hank, Byron, and Braydon take their turn to go up. 

Walking uphill was not as easy as it seems. The incline is a bit slick. I lean back too far, off balance by the backpack, and stress my knees. My Universal Pattern necklace swings, hits me in the chest, and slides to my shoulder. The necklacethe symbol of multiple directions of motion. Right, there are some concepts from Kenpo I can use for caving. One of the concepts is to conserve energydo not expend more than necessary. I stop, recalling my Kenpo instructors words. Keep your back straight, center yourself to align with gravity, change your stances to maintain balance, breathe to focus. I look at my feet and change my posture to modified neutral/forward bow stances. I look upward to the others waiting and switch the stances left and right, going up. My knees do not hurt any more and I have better traction with my feet.

 Ralph hitches on to the rope behind me while Im halfway up. The rope tightens, now with two human bodies weighing on it. The rope wants to lower down closer to the ground. Again, I modify my stances to compensate and continue walking up.

I reach the sandbagged wall and climb over. Ralph joins me shortly and pulls up his ropes. He unties them off the wall and ties them up in loops to carry. He will need to take them out with him. Since he will be the last one out, he asks when I get close to the entrance, I help pass them out to the entrance. He needs his hands free to maneuver his way out through the small entrance. I agree. 

Ralph says that sometimes going up on the rope with the backback strapped to the shoulders will throw the rope climber off balance. He feels that for climbing up the rope, it is easier and less off balance if the backpack is hung on a short rope attached to the rear of the harness. Byron makes a face. He says he tried that the last time and didnt like it. This time, he wants to climb up with his backpack slung on his shoulders. 

I wonder which way is better. Ralph suggests I try it with the short rope. He gets out one and attaches it to my harness and backpack. I watch Hank, Byron, and Braydon climb up the rope.   Now its my turn. I attach the ascender with foot loops and croll to the rope. I climb up thinking this will be easy as it is my favorite part of rope climbing. Ive practiced this a lot! 

 I find out it is not as easy, since Ive never practiced with a backpack before. Ralph is right, it takes me off balance. I struggle going up. I wonder whether it would be easier having the backpack on me instead of below me. Already off balance, I keep trying to pull up with my arms and getting tired in the process. 

My Universal Pattern necklace swings again and sends me another Kenpo reminder. Conserve energy. I stop and sit in the harness to rest. I wave to Ralph. He takes another picture of me. 

 I recall my Kenpo instructors words again. Use your legs and hips for power. I move my feet directly underneath me with the foot loops. In a similar manner as I would with a martial arts horse stance, I tilt my hips forward and keep my back straight. I push directly upwards with my legs and use my arms only to keep me close to the rope rather than pulling up. Even with a backpack dragging, I no longer feel exhausted doing the rope climb.


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## Ceicei

Part 8:  At the Entrance Again and Going Home

I arrive to the small space leading to the entrance. I move up on a narrow ledge to wait for Ralph and help him with the ropes. Ralph reaches me. He suggests I pass my backpack up to Braydon so that my hands will be free to help. Braydon climbs down a few feet from the entrance and takes up the backpack. Ralph passes on the ropes and I hand them off to Braydon. We then get out through the entrance. Ralph unties the rope from the entrance. It is nice to see the sunlight again. It feels warm compared to the cave. 

  We pack up the caving gear and get down the steep mountainside.  We walk down the path. My feet hurt, especially my right foot. I wonder whether my boots are too small, but they shouldnt be. They felt fine this morning. We got to the first footbridge. Before I cross over, I slip on the ice. I try to do a martial arts back breakfall, but with a backpack on, it is difficult to do a proper breakfall. I slam on my right hand. Ralph backs up and extends his hand. I wave him off. I want to lay there on the ground for a moment, mentally assessing my body. I move my wrist and stretch my back. My joints work fine and my back is okay. My right palm shows a bruise. I accept a hand from Ralph and he helps me get up. We cross the icy bridge together.

We finally arrive to the parking lot gate. I take off my boots and look at my right foot. The big toe is half-way bruised with a partially detached toenail. I remember hurting my foot in the cave. Ouch! 

 Hank has to leave to go home. He has a long drive, so we thank him for letting us use his caving gear. We then go eat pizza and head for home.  I make sure to stretch out my body completely so I wont be as sore.  Yes!!!  The Spanish Moss Cave trip is a success!!

The following Tuesday, I go to my Kenpo class. While practicing a brown belt technique, my black belt female partner hard blocks my right kick. Now my right big toe is no longer just halfway bruised, its entirely bruised. Maybe it is a good thing; the loose nail sticks now because of the blood. If Im lucky, I wont lose the nail. My Kenpo instructor advises to ice the toe. After class at home, I ice the toe and tape it up. It is healing very nicely. 

I am grateful for what Kenpo teaches me. I am also grateful that Kenpo gets me in a good physical condition. Kenpo transfers over well with my other activities. I smile, thinking life is goodits terrific!

 - Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

I thank you (publically this time) for such a wonderfully written report/article. Thank you also for helping me show how Martial Arts can help with (any) endeavor in our lives, yea even unto caving.  
Ceicei and her son Byron have come a long way even though only one/two trips under their belts (so far). I have to accredit their MA training in their rapid advancement of the various vertical and caving skills they've learned. 
Ceicei and I did a "private" lesson (because her boy wanted to go shredding on the snow-covered slopes with his new Snowboard) and her youngest asked "what _belt_ would you say Mom is at right now". Hanging there (was on a rope at the time, an indoor climbing wall) I thunk for a moment then said that she's somewhere between purple and blue, in relation to skill level comparative to a Martial Arts (Kenpo) belt. It's the closest thing I could use to help them gauge their advancement. 
I only teach up to intermediate level as far as caving/vertical rope techniques. Much of the advance (Brown-Black) stuff one learns on their own via experience and the number of caves done and amount of rope work involved for that particular cave. 
The next cave I plan to take them to is Candlelight. A 95 foot free-hanging rappel down a 220' mineshaft and one has to swing into the entrance. Enroute out one has to literally step out into free space to begin their ascent up the rope. I've watched experienced cavers (out of state) come visit this cave and when they get ready to begin their ascent, they pause realizing that they have a 135 foot free fall to the bottom of the shaft and they edge out as cautiously as possible ... on their butts. They watched one of us just simply get on rope, double check everything and then step out. ...(chuckling) guess you had to be there. 
Anyway this next trip will prove to be challenging but I think they're capable, otherwise they wouldn't be on the trip roster. 

Good job Ceicei!


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## MA-Caver

Another neato trip made by Ceicei and her son Byron. I'm only going to post a group photo and let the "report" go to her with her own additions of photos. 

The group consists of some not some typical cavers (one is missing the guy who took the photo.. James). But if any of you are old enough to remember actor Steve McQueen then Stan (far right) is ole' Steve's cousin (somewhere on the tree not too distant either). 
Also there's Yifan Shi who is from mainland China and learning to cave for the first time here. 
Peter is one of the most experienced cavers I know as he's been doing it for nigh 40 sumpthin years. 
We had a good trip and it was a good experience for all. Especially for the men who have never caved with a deaf person before. They commented that it was ... different. But they complimented that she done very well. As if she wouldn't for some reason,  oh geez!


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## MA-Caver

My personal deepest is -1165 feet or -355.09 meters. (Neffs Canyon Cave in Utah). This is roughly six times that, I can't possibly imagine doing _that_ cave six times straight in a row. And yet the search goes on for the deepest. As the aforementioned Neffs took a back seat last fall when a new cave (in Utah) was found to be -1174 feet. Article for that is here in pdf format enjoy.


> NG: Photo in the News: Cavers Reach "Bottom of the World"
> David Braun
> 
> April 21, 2005In a newly released photograph from the May National Geographic magazine, caver Alan Cressler, shown last August, rappels into Krubera Cave in the Caucasus Mountains of Russiathe world's deepest. Cressler was part of first phase of the Call of the Abyss project. The project's second expedition, in October, became the first to descend more than 2,000 meters (6,560 feet) underground.
> 
> Working underground for nearly four weeks, the August expedition involved 56 cavers, 45 men and 11 women, representing seven countries. They hauled in five tons of gear, rigging nearly 2 miles (3.2 kilometers) of rope and stringing a telephone wire to the bottom. Battling numerous vertical drops and freezing torrents of waterand blasting rubble from narrow passagesthe August team reached a depth of 1,840 meters (*6,037* feet).
> 
> In October a nine-person Call of the Abyss team entered Krubera. Using the ropes and anchors left by the August group, the 17-day expedition reached a depth of 2,080 meters (*6,824* feet).
> 
> "Like climbing an inverted Everest," is how one caver described descending into Krubera. But "there is an important difference," said Alexander Klimchouk, the project organizer. "When you explore a cave, you don't know where the final limit liesthe terrain is not known in advance. And even now, we don't know whether we've reached the limitor if it will go on. We're pretty sure we'll eventually go even lower."
> 
> National Geographic article


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## MA-Caver

Went out caving last Saturday with a group of friends and (some) former students of mine (meaning they've  acquired enough skills that they don't need me to help them out with their vertical/caving skills. I'm computer stupid so I haven't quite figured out how to post several pics with some text underneath each. Someone showed me how but it went over my head. Soo, it will have to go with pic 1 = caption, pic 2 = caption then the pics in order below. 

This will be a two parter because there were a lot of good pics taken ... 

==========================================================

This is at Indian Springs Cave somewhere along the Pony Express trail going through Utah. The cave is in an abandoned mine and we have to shovel the dirt out of the entrance to gain access. Inside we had to set up some safety lines to get over some spots. But once inside the cave itself there were only a few spots that required a safety line for those desiring it. An absolutely GORGEOUS cave to be sure...  But it's very technical in the climbs and maneuvers through it... physically challenging.  
Enjoy

Pic 1 = Me going feet first through a wet/muddy entrance. Above me is solid rock (I know it looks like mud/dirt but it's solid I assure you). The entrance crawl is only a full body length long, after that the whole thing become walking passage. 

Pic 2 = Everybody saw Awww, once inside about 50 yards in I found a rats nest (see other pics in this thread for the adult) with at least a week old baby inside. I thought at first the mother had abandoned it and it turned out that we spotted the mother with the rest of the litter clinging tightly to her belly as she tried to hurry away from us. Seems she didn't have enough room to get the last baby. When we came back through on our way out the baby was missing and apparently momma stashed the others and came back to get this one. We were careful to avoid touching it so to *not* leave our scent on the baby, because that would've given the mother cause to either kill it or just abandon it to die. 

Pic 3 = Part of the abandoned mine that we had to go through to reach the cave. It looks scarier than it actually is... as long as you don't touch the timbers you're fine  Oh and you had to watch out for false floors here and there. 

Pic 4 = Just one small corner of the "entrance chamber" of the cave itself. The photographer didn't get a shot of it but the room was dripping wet and in one spot water was pouring down like a leaky faucet. There were formations of all kinds in this room. Truly stunning. 

Pic 5 = One of my favorite spots in the cave because it's too small to fit a full sized human so you can only just take a good peek inside without actually getting inside.


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## MA-Caver

Pic 1 = One of the reasons that we bury this mine back up after we're done is evident from the large broken Stalactite just left of the center of the photo. This particular piece (among many others  ) was probably broken off by the miners who first discovered the cave years and years ago. They didn't know better. What they were mining for isn't clear either. 

Pic 2 = More pretties... 

Pic 3 = After the trip... we just love the mud... :lol: A lot of it was on our rears and back.  Left to right: Brittany and Doug and MACaver. Brittany was a student of mine briefly before she trained under other cavers. She's an awesome gal. She and her husband (Doug) met on-line via a dating service and decided to choose caving as something new they can do together. Both are great fun to be with.  She coined the phrase for us as we were going in (and out) the entrance "On Mud!" 

Pic 4 = She was very proud of the mud she gotten into her hair. Thought it was cool. My kind of girl... likes to get down and dirty. :lol:  That's Cody behind her (another student of mine). He wanted to bring yet one more of my students, his (now) 11 yr old daughter Kiaya but mom *had *to take her _shopping_  as if *that's *more important... geez. 

All in all a very good trip and lots of fun. Most of the caves I visit aren't that muddy... but we've been having quite a bit of rain and the ground water is seeping through more than usual ... thus... Mud!


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## Ceicei

Cool!!!!  Thanks for the update of your trip!  Sorry I missed going with you on that one.

 This coming weekend, I plan on going caving with MACaver to Pink Lime Pit. I'll be sure to post my pictures and report on how it went.

  - Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

..... (dripping of water is heard)..... need to revive this thread... more pics and posts coming soon...


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## MA-Caver

Better late than never I guess... 
This was last weekend and a training trip for several people... this gal learned quick... the guys did just as well...


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## Cryozombie

Holy Cow!  Did anyone else spot the calcified alien corpse in that pic of 'Cavers?


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## Ceicei

Wow!  Good eye!!  Yep, it sure does look like an alien.      - Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

Agrees with Ceicei, definitely a good eye and a great imagination. I've been to this cave more times than I care to count (leading beginners to their first vertical cave and all...) and seen this formation more times than I care to count... never saw that figure/shape/whatzizit until you pointed it out. 
Now I'll *always* see it every time I go there. 
Way to go Techno!... heh


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## arnisador

Cool-looking photos! Makes me claustrophobic...let alone the alien!


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## MA-Caver

Check this out... what a shame... but good job on the LEO's part in busting this up. http://www.newschannel5.com/content/news/16405.asp


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## MA-Caver

More caving pics from a four-day/three night trip to Great Basin National Park. 
These are all permit caves requiring filling out a form and getting keys and entering at the designated time frame. 
Main reason is to protect bats which use the cave(s) either as a nursery or a hibernaculum. 
Didn't see no bats but had lots of fun. No the dog in the last pic didn't go in to the cave. Dust masks are needed for the first 100 feet as it's very dry and loaded with rat/bat guano. 
Enjoy.


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## MA-Caver

A few more pics from the same weekend. Helmet in second pic is for scale (of course) ... that cave was all crawling and tight stuff...* loved it.* 
It helps enforce a mental and physical calm to get through all of that. 
No, not for claustrophobics but a challenge for them to get themselves under control to be sure. 
At one point I ended up taking a nap while waiting for one other guy to finish exploring this one side passage. Shows how comfy I get in places like these.


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## bluemtn

Those are great pics!  I used to like caving (walking in)- not sure if I'd like the climbing a rope.  Still, great pics!


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## MA-Caver

Recent caving trip... a hydro-thermal cave (one that is created by hot rising waters). Ceicei's kid Byron who is soon to become a (Jr.) Black-belt in EPAK went on this one... found this to be probably his most physically challenging one yet. 

Enjoy! Part 1 of 2 
1. Coming down partway in the cave -120 feet

2. All smiles, Kilie a deaf girl that's loving it!

3. Tight passage? *What* tight passage? 

4. Byron coming back down from an exploratory jaunt into the fossil passage.


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## MA-Caver

Blowhole Cave trip... continued.

1. At a tricky spot during the rappel. -175 feet beneath the earth

2. All smiles as Kilie descends down Miner's Pit located -215 feet

3. Byron's turn, just picture perfect in his technique. Mom should be proud. (and she is!  )

4. Does this kid have a great smile or what?


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## Flatlander

Sweet!  A revival of the MACaver thread!


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## MA-Caver

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Sweet!  A revival of the MACaver thread!


Well... (blush) I try.


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## MA-Caver

Here is something that I would like to share with you all. 
Recently my caving group got together to celebrate a great friend and caver who was killed ten years ago in a motorcycle accident. One of us made a complilation of a series of videos of our friend before he died. The videographer didn't just specifcally focus on this guy, it just happened that he was around most of the time when the videographer was filming. I make appearances here and there as well... of course my hair was longer then than it is now. 
The video can be found here http://www.megaupload.com/?d=K3CQ8E7O
You'll have to be quick and hit the "click here to proceed" button before ads start popping up all over the place, then it'll ask you to wait 45 seconds; another ad pops just hit X and then click download (it's *SAFE*!), be sure that it reads Dan Clyde Tribute (somewhere on the page near the bottom) to ensure you have the right one. It's formatted for DivX player  which you might have to download to view if you don't already have it. The original video is 5 GB which is compressed to 205 mb. Runs about 20 minutes long. There is no dialogue but accompanying music. 
Hopefully ya'll can see it and enjoy it. 
His name is Dan Clyde, he was my friend, my brother, my kindred spirit. After 10 years; my heart still breaks at his loss.


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## MA-Caver

Not all caving involves having lots of fun and exploring new places and seeing beautiful formations. Sometimes it's projects. In this case placing a gate at the behest of the land-owners who are nervous about liability issues. They called upon my grotto/group to help out and we did. Rawther nicely too I might say. 
For this particular project the gate was placed some 10 feet down inside the entrance (see pics below). Mainly so that disrespectful idjits with their 4X4 trucks and winches can't get a good purchase on it and yank it right off/out. 
The whole project took two days to complete. It was done discreetly and when another nearby cave gets it's gate placed on it then it'll be announced in the media and hopefully the public will accept this alternative to permanently closing the cave(s) which the land owners wanted to do in the first place. Thankfully my group managed to intervene with the alternative so that future generations can still enjoy these natural resources while they are being protected and protect the public. 
I still havent' figured out how to post pics and have captions underneath to help better explain what's going on. Since only 5 are allowed at a time it'll have to do. Enjoy.  

1. Preprations include drilling holes for inch thick rebar to be inserted and be the base to which the steel plates are welded to. 

2. Cutting the Steel ... not as easy as it looks as it's 3/4 inch thick. (That's me on the saw) 

3. The steel is lowered down while the guy is trying to rappel at the same time. Clumsy but safe enough that it works. 

4. Parts being welded while inside the cave. Thankfully the cave was "blowing-out" and all the fumes were carried upon the wind outside. 

5. The completed gate (with door opened). Note the bat welded on the left side. The bars on the gate are designed to keep people out... but should any bats wish to roost they can fly between the bars. But in-so-far this cave hasn't a history of bats roosting so that's not a big deal. But since it does blow copious amounts of air (barometric pressure) a solid door wouldn't be a good idea. 

Since the cave itself is vertical in nature (sloping 75 to 80 degrees) a rope is needed. As the door is opened the rope will go down and immediately to the left (of the picture #5). This will make it easier for people to get out.  

If I'm lucky I'll be notified of the other cave gating and be able to take pics of that and post 'em here.


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## MA-Caver

Another cave, another gate. This time Nutty Putty Cave. One of the most popular caves in the state of Utah. At one time it has been estimated that over 4900 people visit this cave a year. Unfortunately that amount of visitation increases the odds of someone getting hurt in the cave. Several rescues have occurred here (of myself I participated in two of them), which has led the Sheriff's department to raise some questions. The owner of the cave is actually The State of Utah School and Institutional Trust Land Administration which lease the land to ranchers and other interested parties as part of fund raising in addtion to funds administred by the state. 
I'm not sure how exactly all that works out but only know that the land-owners had been increasingly concerned that eventually a liablity lawsuit would come down upon them as a result of an injury in the cave. Thus after much deliberation and discussion and proposing they turned over management and the building of the gate to a (non-profit) group also known as a Grotto of which I've been a member for the past 15 years. 
Materials were provided by the land-owners and other items such as equiptment and man power were loaned by the USFS and members of the Grotto. 
It was a lot of work to get the gate built in one day and 15 hours and 9 cavers later it was finished. As you can see from the photos (below) the labor wasn't easy, engineering was likewise difficult as there are no flat, smooth, straight surfaces in a cave environment. All measurements, cutting and welding of the steel was to be done on the spot. Pre-measured/cutting and building are not always possible nor practical. Fortunately caving attracts the attention of a wide variety of people with a wide variety of skills that helps the volunteer effort go smoothly. 
One of us brought a large camp stove and bought (at his expense) several pounds of a variety of Bratwurst to keep us going for lunch and eventually dinner. Naturally one would think that beer being the better beverage to be served with Brats would be on the menu, but in the interest of safety all volunteers needed to be (completely) sober at all times when doing this type of work, thus cold sodas and poweraids drinks and water were the day's staple drinks. 
The small confines of the cave's entrance was chosen for the gate's location rather the outer surface due to the fact that there is opposition to the idea of gating the cave and restricting access. Before one would simply just drive to the cave and go on in. Now they will have to fill out a form and pass certian criterias (i.e. properly equippted and experienced). The gate's location makes it difficult for someone with a 4X4 truck/SUV equippted with a winch to pull the gate apart. The weakest link will be the combination lock, which is easier and cheaper to replace should anyone with a small pair of bolt cutters cut it apart. 
Building it on site was a lot of work, mainly because several folks played gopher and communication relay between the surface and underground. Radios don't work too well in some caves... like this one due to mineralogical interference. 
One of the biggest surprises was that two 80 inch pieces of 4 inch wide 1/2 inch thick steel angle irons needed to be brought inside... to everyone's amazement they fit and just barely past the entrance crawl. One goes straight down about 6 feet before having to turn a full 90 degrees into an opening roughly 2 feet wide by 8 inches tall. It was fortunate that the bottom portion widened sufficently enough to allow the turning of the heavy steel beam. What was unfortunate was having to take the same beam in and out of the cave several times to cut small pieces out of the ends to better fit. 
At one point we were delayed by an hour after a drill bit got stuck in the limestone wall. Then... the generator ran out of gas after the 3rd filling. One of us decided to siphon the gas from his SUV to keep the generator going. Sacrifices... for the love of caving. (grins) 
It's regrettable that this measure of gating the cave had to be taken, but necessary for the safety of those untrained and inexperienced to enter this cave. For someone like myself this cave is very easy to negotiate, but no less dangerous should I ever become careless. For someone who does not it is simply dangerous, as several people can attest after having been rescued. 
Think of it as in martial arts terms; a green belt going full tilt up against a first degree black belt. They may do alright at first but sooner or later they'll get hurt. 
Anyway it was a good project to be involved in and I was glad to deepen the already strong bonds of friendship with other cavers even further. Having shared this experience together helps. 
Time will tell of the public's overall reaction to this new change. We are anticipating a remarkable decrease in visitation regardless. There will be some resentment towards the grotto(s) and outcries to the land-owners and damages to the lock and gate. 
But it only takes one person to screw it up for the rest of us. The last rescue was the last straw for the land-owners and the county SAR group. Better a gate than the other option they were seriously considering... cementing the entrance shut completely. 
Anyway enjoy the photos. 

1. Cami gives a smile as she helps guide the electrical extension cord to provide power for the welder and lights into the cave. 

2. Looking down into the entrance of the cave, as you can see petite Cami manages to fill up the opening, imagine getting all that steel down in there. 

3. Justin, pausing to cook those wonderful Bratwursts for lunch. Mmmm yeah! 

4. Jon and Tim setting up the uprights for the main doorway. Note the confines of the crawl. There's no standing, kneeling or sitting room here at all... the rest of the cave does "open up" to various heights between hands and knee crawling to walking passages. 

5. Jon welding the first of many parts. Lying on one's side and wearing that welding mask, gotta admire the guy.


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## Carol

Holy Cow!

This is an amazing thread, Ralph.  I'm totally amazed.   And it's not just the espresso, either. :rofl:


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## MA-Caver

Nutty Putty cave gating project part 2: 

1. Jon taking measurements for the second upright. 

2. Yours truly giving Jon a hand 

3. The completed door, still a lot more work left to do. 

4. On the surface Justin and Cami continue cutting pieces. It's getting dark outside now. 

5. Part of the locking mechanism. The lettering done by MA-Caver  (g'wan... check out the website...it's way cool! :uhyeah: )


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## MA-Caver

Nutty Putty Gate part 3. 

1. A few more holes left to drill... oh no! It's stuck! 

2. Justin comes into the cave to give a hand with pulling the drill out. Turns out they had to remove the drill and leave the (steel) bit and weld right on to it. Ah well it was a bad bit anyway. A tight fit for Justin. Hard to find the right leverage. 

3. It's about 11 pm and Cami takes a quick cat nap on the trailer. The generator is going the whole time, but she didn't care... was way tired. 

4. The 80" long angle irons in place. The space between them is 5 inches wide. 

5. Completed gate, a tired but happy Cami smiles from within. We started at 10 AM and got finished by 1 AM.


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## MA-Caver

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Holy Cow!
> 
> This is an amazing thread, Ralph.  I'm totally amazed.   And it's not just the espresso, either. :rofl:



Thanks to *Flatlander *who got interested enough in my non-martial activities to start a thread for me to write about this stuff. :asian:


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## Carol

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> Thanks to *Flatlander *who got interested enough in my non-martial activities to start a thread for me to write about this stuff. :asian:


 
I hope you keep posting and keep writing about it.  This is absolutely fascinating.  You're taking me in to a world that I have never seen before and I absolutely love it.

I'm sure the pictures are nothing compared to what it must be like to see and experience but......wow.......to even see a little piece through your pictures and engaging descriptions is truly amazing 

Fabulous, fabulous work. :asian:


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## MA-Caver

Last saturday I took a small group of deaf people caving. Among them our very own and honorable Ceicei. This would make it her 7th or 8th cave. Compared to the others this one was relatively easy. I chose this particular cave, Oak City Cave, because the _other_ _young_ lady has a lung defect which only permits them to operate at 40% efficiency, thus one of the caves that requires long hikes with 1000 foot elevation gains wouldn't be good for her. Found out later that it was merely her (over-protective) boyfriend misaligning the facts. She could do it... if we took it easy... she says. 

Anyway. Oak City is known as a "sacrifice cave". Meaning that it's already been damaged and vandalized to the point that restoration would take hundreds of hours and many more hundreds of dollars and while it's a cave that people can trash (as much as we would prefer them NOT to) it's better than losing the comparative beauty of some of the other caves we have... (see previous posts). 
A scout-clean-up project does occur here from time to time, removing bits of debris and trash left behind by the callous and uncaring. There is one section of the cave where graffiti removal was done. Other sections require more work and still other sections of this cave the graffiti overlaps delicate calcite formations and any aggressive (or even mild) clean up attempt would result in the formation's destruction. 
My caving group (aka Grotto) now use this cave as a teaching resource. To show "why we gate caves" or "why we prefer to keep many locations secret". 
We realize that not everyone is a vandal... but then not everyone is mindful of the irreplacable resource that caves are. 
Everyone had a good time and enjoyed themselves (as evident from the photos). For two of our group it was their first time underground. They're the "loving" couple that you'll see (below). They had the wonderful fortune of seeing their first live bat in the wild (asleep), Ceicei I believe has seen bats before but never in a cave. It was a treat for them to say the least. 
I was pleasantly surprised when exiting a room to find my old caving mentor/teacher/friend sitting in the main passage with his oldest son and (of all things) their dog. They just happened to select the same cave we did on the same day out of sheer boredom, that and the fact they haven't been to this cave in roughly 10 years. The two of them are credited with helping discover and map Utah's deepest cave "Main Drain" which presently extends some 1230 feet beneath the surface. 
It was a good trip and everyone had fun. 
Enjoy the pics. 

1. Group photo (taken by MA-Caver) 

2. In one of the larger rooms of the cave. Maggie playfully tells me what she thinks... nyahh back to you hunny!

3. Ceicei in a tight spot... not for claustrophobics to be sure. 

4. Danny thinks this spot is going to eat him alive... *NOT!* 

5. Awww true love! Not the first time either... caught them making out in an obscure corner of the cave... Hey guys.. get a roo... oh wait ya'll did.


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## MA-Caver

Oak City Cave pics part two: 

1. This spot is not as tight as it looks... yeah that's Ceicei bringing up the rear... (in a manner of speaking of course). :lol:

2. Everyone trying to scare me as I came in... yah yah whatever! 

3. Maggie trying her best impersonation of a... wildcat I guess... *MMRREEOOWWWLLL !! *

4 Group photo after the cave... Damian and Danny show off their torn pants while Maggie and I just ... chill! (photo by Ceicei) 

Ceicei took her own photos and we'll see when she gets them downloaded to her HD.


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## Ceicei

This is the picture of the sleeping bat we saw in the Oak City Cave.


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## Ceicei

This is the tree where I wanted to "do my business" before going into the cave, but the two cows and their calves weren't too happy.  They finally mooooved...


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## Ceicei

Entrance to the cave....


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## Ceicei

Some interesting formations found inside. (Hand belongs to MA-Caver).


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## Ceicei

A very tight spot in the cave....  It is not really as small as it seems, as shown by Maggie sitting inside this spot.  The foot in the lower right corner of the first picture belongs to MA-Caver.


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## Ceicei

Met two other friends (Ryan and Brian) and their cave dog... (you can see a bit of the graffiti in the background mentioned by MA-Caver).


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## MA-Caver

An article in CNN moves me to post this. Interesting reading.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/25/cave.remains.ny.ap/index.html


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## MA-Caver

*Independence Day Caving With Martial Artists! * 
Today was a good day for caving. Not quite as hot as it has been, approaching thunderstorms from way out west were cooling things off nice enough to allow a good day of training and actual caving. 
Ceicei and her son Byron and a new caving buddy Max Barker and his wife Ailene  (that's how I remember she spelled it to me) and son Russell and a even newer caving buddy Mike M. were present to get an afternoon's worth of training and then the rest of the day spent in their first cave (Ceicei and Byron excepting). 

On the way out there we saw Pronghorn Antelope and a red-tailed hawk. 
It was Ailene, Mike and Russell's first time doing SRT (Single Rope Techniques). Max who is a 4th Cord Capoera went out with me the previous weekend and apparently his story of that day was enough to get his wife interested. Russell couldn't make it that weekend and was wow-ed enough to definitely make the trip today. 
Ceicei who has been busy with her life managed to squeeze in this trip thanks to it being a holiday. Byron was just being totally patient... but still had to do his chores to be allowed to go by both his parents and his SRT/Caving instructor (moi). 
It was out to Pink Lime Pit (see previous posts) to initiate the new-comers and to give Max a chance to try out Prussiks (again see previous posts), one of Ceicei's favorite ways of getting up on a rope whilst deep in a pit. 
Everyone did very well, my older students were, I felt proficient enough in the method of ascending (and rappelling) to assist (moi) in the hows and where-fores that my job was a lot easier that I could spread myself out helping whomever needed help the most whenever they needed it. 
Utilizing the principals of energy conservation and motion as observed by Martial Artists as a teaching tool everyone caught on very quickly. Ailene was my major concern since she has had a series of foot surgeries that are just now beginning to heal and she felt well enough to make the attempt. 
Once the basics were set down in their minds and bodies we had a quick lunch and went to a different cave. 
Enroute we spied a growing brush-fire set off by who knows what. Idiots with fireworks? Idiots with a careless camp-fire? Lightning? Who knows? Either way we passed fire-fighting units from several of the small surrounding towns and was pulled over by a sheriff's deputy to be questioned and then sent on our way.
Upper cave is the name. It's basically as deep as Pink Lime Pit but has a real cave to go explore and some challenges of it's own. Exposed climbs and a long hand-dug belly crawl that (if memory serves correctly) extends well over 200 feet. 

Lots of photos were taken by three aspiring photographers. Soon to be posted here as a continuation of this report. 

Max and I chatted and we agreed that more MA-ist should try caving, as it utilizes full body-all muscle work outs in doing so. As well as internalizing personal fears and over coming them as well as other challenges. 
Plus it's just a lot of fun.
Everyone had a blast, even the old-timer ... moi!


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## MA-Caver

Here is a link to where Mike had posted his (and Ceicei's) photos of our trip on the fourth of july... http://photos.mimbach.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=Caving

enjoy... (you can click on the thumbs, get the photo, then click on the photo itself and get a larger version of it...) some of the orientation of the pics are not proper... I written to Mike suggesting that he *ahem* fix that...


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## MA-Caver

Here are my photos of the trip... 

1. group photo of all present except for yours truly who had to push the button... 
2. Ceicei on rope, all smiles. 
3. Byron coming up out of the pit... he's happier than he looks.
4. Byron playing peek-a-boo in Upper Cave
5. Ceicei is umm... coming out? (j/k)


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## MA-Caver

Yet another caving trip, this last Sunday. To Blowhole Cave with some friends old and new. Practically all vertical cave reaching a depth of -340 feet. This will probably be my last trip in this cave for a while as I'm moving to TAG country (Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia) where some of the greatest vertical drops in the country are. 
Roughly 90 % of this cave is on a 70-80 degree slope downwards. It was a geyser at one time in history a long long time ago, after the waters of Lake Bonneville drained. The temprature of this cave hovers at around 68-72 degrees and down lower the humidity level is pretty high too. It's drained dry and left behind a formation of rock we call the Navajo Blanket (see photos) a plethoria of photos of our trip can be found http://photos.mimbach.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=album25
taken by budding cave photographer Mike Mimbach. The lovely Dannielle Harden took many of the "fossil" photos in the "Fossil Passage" an portion of the cave that rises above the main passage and extends to roughly 12 feet below the surface. 
My own photos are here below. Enjoy 
1. James and Mike observing the entrance drop. 
2. Danni preparing herself for an enjoyable trip out in the hot desert sun. 
3. Tamie making her way past me to the bottom of the deepest rope drop. All smiles as usual, she just loves this stuff. 
4. Mike coming up out of Miner's Pit which gives the cave it's 340 foot depth, it's located some 180 feet beneath the surface. 
5. The carcass of a dead bunny (black tip jackrabbit) that most likely died of starvation/dehydration after falling into the cave and not being able to make it's way out. There were two of them (in different locations) and they were umm, relatively fresh as the stench of rot premeated the lower areas of the cave. This guy was fairly deep down above Miner's Pit. He was still.... juicy. :barf:


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## MA-Caver

Everybody say... *AWWWW! *
Pic by a caver's wife (off another discussion board) of her stuffed Kolala "ready to go!" 

Thawt I'd share that...


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## chris_&#3617;&#3623;&#3618;&#3652;&#3607;&#3618;

lol nice koala , enjoyed reading the posts , more pics more pics!


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## MA-Caver

KATIE SCHMITT - Daily Herald

In most places, bats have gotten the reputation as being scary, disease-carrying flying terrors, but one golf course is using them as a natural insecticide.

Gregory Taylor, 15, of Boy Scout Troop 870 in Spanish Fork, built eight bat houses in six months to place on the Sleepy Ridge Golf Course in Orem for his Eagle Scout project.

Bat houses are wooden structures built to encourage bats to live in a certain area by providing the right environment for them.

"We originally wanted to make markers on the golf course to show how far you are from the hole," Taylor said. "But the golf course wanted to know if we would build bat houses instead."

Brian Cloud, head golf course superintendent for Sleepy Ridge Golf Course, said the course is near wetlands and has been known to have a mosquito problem from time to time. He said he hopes that encouraging bats to roost near the course will help cut down on discomfort for the golfers.

According to Bat Conservation International, www.batcon.org, the Little Brown Myotis, a common bat found in North America, can eat up to *1,200 *insects in just one hour.

Taylor said each bat house will hold up to *1,000* bats. (_do the math_) 

"It might take a few years for the bats to find the houses," Cloud said. "But I think it will help control the mosquito population much more effectively."
Full Story here: 
http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/187973/4/


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## MA-Caver

One of my caving buddies finally managed to get his video on the net. It's very low quality but clear enough to make out what's going on. Basically it's just us getting ready and going down the entrance of a 340 foot deep cave (see previous trip report above ... Blowhole Cave). 
Hopefully will get more and better videos up for ya'll. 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4471092647368518408&hl=en

On the same page there's Tabernacle Hill and Lava tubes done by another caving buddy of mine.


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## Drac

Great Pictures...


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## MA-Caver

Another caving trip, this time to an unknown pit. Miners had started a shaft (a vertical pit) and broke into what is apparently natural cave. The total estimated depth is about 115 feet. 
I was first one down since I had the most experience in vertical work (over 38K feet) and exploring unknown pits/shafts. It got un-nervving after waiting for the next person to come down as at the bottom there was literally no where to go if a rock was knocked loose by the person above me. Only 3 out of 4 of our party actually descended the deep pit. 
We found another one not too far away but it was a smallish drop of about 15 feet and the guy who went down experienced what we call bad air, in basic terms low 02 count and high C02 count. He made it back out alright as it wasn't that deep of a pit. 
Pictures of our adventure can be found here. No dead bunnies thank goodness. http://photos.mimbach.com/view_album.php?set_albumName=album31
Fun times as usual. Will be going out again this coming Sunday.


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## MA-Caver

Thanks to my buddy Mike, he's created a webpage for me to post all my photos. It's a long work in progress but there are a number of old photos from trips dating 15 years ago to present. I will be uploading more over the next week or so. Keep checking back. 

Enjoy http://ralph.rigidtech.com/albums.php


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## MA-Caver

One of my caving groups had a party (so to speak)... lots of caves were visited and my "world famous spagetti sauce" was served. One of the caves I managed to visit was one called Chepeta in the Unita Mountians of Utah. 
This is a spectacular cave with some vertical rope work involved and some of the most decorated rooms I've seen in years. It was my third trip to the cave and a first for the other three that came along. 
Ceicei's son Byron was among them and he had a great time though we both missed his mother joining us. Someday again soon CC  
This is one of the pictures of Byron as he posed among a cluster of formations. The photo was taken with a Canon D10 and it's one of the best I've seen. Altogether we took over 700 photos with two cameras (gotta love digital and those big cards they take) and roughly about more than half came out and most of those were worked with a photo editing program to where they looked a lot better. 
I'm having issues with a rule that prohibits posting photos of the cave on the internet. Basically I think as long as location isn't given out it should be okay because everyone should be allowed to enjoy this type of beauty, even if second hand.
I will have the pics up on soon...


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## Carol

I had to pull this thread up to see the fotos again.  

Absolutely stunning work, Ralph!  :asian:


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## MA-Caver

This is copied from the NSS discussion board http://www.cavechat.org/ under Caving General Discussion and Questions section which was in turn copied from another listserv post (the link to THAT wasn't provided)... Very sad news for us cavers and those who love nature's wonders. 


> This is copied from a Texascavers listserv post:
> This is a posting I hoped never to make.
> On November 21, 2006, the Butterfly at Caverns of Sonora was seriously damaged. The upper portion of the right wing was snapped off and has vanished.
> The incident, while not witnessed by cavern personnel, is well documented as it was intact when the guide passed by on one tour and noted as damaged on the following tour. The perps are thought to be early 20s tourists who paid for their tickets with credit cards. There was some purposeful activity to distract the guide and also some suspicious conversation about the Butterfly both before and after the breakage.
> At this point, the event is being viewed as a misdemeanor by the local authorities and is receiving little, if any, of their attention. Despite the credit card receipt, the information that might be produced from that can only be obtained by subpoena and that requires the active support of the law enforcement authorities of Sutton County.
> So what can you, as interested (horrified?) bystanders, do in this case? Two things, I think. First, circulate this information in the caving community so that we have thousands of eyes and ears paying attention and second, write a polite letter to the authorities listed below in which you express dismay at this incident and let them know that you will be following the case and their progress toward solving it.
> The first priority is to recover the broken fragment if possible. If the joining edges are not badly damaged, a satisfactory repair may be made. After that, we might hope that the person(s) responsible will be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.
> If you have any information please contact cave owner Gerry Ingham at 325-387-3105 or 325-387-2970.
> Here is the text of the original posting and contact information for the proper authorities. Thanks for your support.
> ===Carl Kunath
> [Original posting from Joe Smart]
> One of the amazing formations in the cave is the world famous butterfly formation.
> Recently, someone (we believe on a dare) broke and took a piece of the butterfly, destroying it forever.
> The police/authorities are doing NOTHING and I have watched my wife cry and lose sleep over the lack of regard for this national monument and the communities apathy.
> I am asking the caving community to speak up and contact the authorities as well as the Chamber of Commerce and let them know that this is VERY IMPORTANT and that if they have a lead (and they do)
> they need to get rolling on it. If you are truly into caves, you will recognize this butterfly, as I do, as a priceless work of art.
> Please help us!
> 
> Sonora, Texas Chamber of Commerce
> P.O. Box 1172
> 205 Hwy 277 North, Suite B
> Sonora, TX 76950
> Phone: (325) 387-2880 or (888) 387-2880/Fax: (325) 387-5357
> 
> County Sheriff
> Sheriff Joe Fincher
> P. O. Box 1212
> Sonora, Texas 76950
> Phone: 325-387-2288
> Fax: 325-387-5245
> 
> County Attorney
> David W. Wallace
> P. O. Box 1508
> Sonora, Texas 76950
> Phone: 325-387-6553
> Fax: 325-387-6554


I post this here with hope that maybe someone will know something. The more faster and broader the word gets out the sooner these ....(grrrr) .... will be caught and MAYBE the broken piece be recovered and hopefully restored. It's possible to do so with epoxy resin but the pieces must marry together well enough for the adhesive to stick and for as little seam as possible to show... it isn't likely however as the broken piece might be in a trash barrel or tossed out of the vandals car to the side of the road (think lonely texas highways) in an effort to get rid of the evidence. As you can see from the photo this is a truly unqiue creation of nature... one of a kind now no more in it's purity. 
Here is a photograph of the formation before it was permanently damaged.


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## Kacey

That's just horrible - both the act itself and the lack of action by the authorities.


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## exile

Kacey said:


> That's just horrible - both the act itself and the lack of action by the authorities.



The things people are capable of doing to beauty---in nature or in art---are horrific. I lived for a year on the Queen Charlotte Islands, an archipelago around 500 miles north of Vancouver and 70 miles offshore, the island of the Haida. In a remote part of these extremely wild, magnificent islands----think a bonsai version of New Zealand; a lot of the shots in _Lord of the Rings_ look like a hugely expanded version of the Charlottes---was a gigantic Sitka spruce which, due to an apparently extremely rare mutation, produced golden rather than green needles; in fact the bark itself was golden tinged. The Golden Spruce really looked like a 200' tall spruce tree that someone had dipped in gold paint. It had essentially sacred status for the Haida and was, as far as I know, unique at this time---no other instance of this mutation has so far been discovered, though it probably occurs from time to time every millenium or so. 

About ten years ago, I think, some psychopath who hated enviromentalists took a _big_ chainsaw there and cut it down.

You can see what the tree looked like and read about the defective who killed it in the following links.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/021104fa_fact?021104fa_fact

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4679760

The guys who damaged this cave are the same type, and given the chance, I would do the same thing to them that I would do to the guy who killed the Golden Spruce...


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## Drac

Kacey said:


> That's just horrible - both the act itself and the lack of action by the authorities.


 
Get caught with a beer and they will go all out to throw the book at you, and yet something like this act that is really CRIMINAL is ignored??? The Park Rangers need to get their priorities in order...


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## MA-Caver

exile said:


> The guys who damaged this cave are the same type, and given the chance, I would do the same thing to them that I would do to the guy who killed the Golden Spruce...



Get in line okay... we'll (try) to leave enough for you to beat on ... 
This is why I *appreciate* Flatlander for creating this thread, a means for me to help spread the message of conservation ... not just for caves mind you but for all things that nature has given us. Caves are the most fragile of environments but other places above ground should be held just as sacred and tread with care. 
As martial artist we learn how to create harmony within our selves, our minds and our bodies. I believe that we also can learn from (MA) how to harmonize with our world. Though peace without cannot come unless there is peace within how nice it would be that when we (individually) achieve that inner peace that our world is just as peaceful and beautiful. 

Please copy/paste the (above) post on the vandalism and put it on whatever other discussion forums you may belong to to help spread the word of this loss. Millions of people have visited Caverns of Sonora over the years and have appreciated the beauty of the butterfly and other formations throughout. I'm sure there would be some who would assist in the search for the perps. 

Thank you.


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## Arizona Angel

These are just awesome pictures.


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## MA-Caver

Here is an update on the vandalism as far as how MUCH damage was done to this particular formation... someone managed to get a photo of the broken butterfly... Also the updated news from someone who lives in the area... 


> http://www.cavechat.org/ Living in Sonora and being frustrated by everything from the weak cave protection laws in TX to the local authorities in this investigation, I must admit it is easy to think the justice system has failed to take this matter as seriously as we would like. But in reality, the sheriff's office has a quarter of its force on this case...That's one deputy in a force of four. In some ways, their hands are tied waiting on subpoenas etc. from the DA's office. Pressure still needs to be put on, to keep this thing alive and not put on the back burner.
> Like Ron Kerbo, I was informed of this atrocity just before Thanksgiving, but was asked to sit on it.
> I was at the Caverns yesterday and the owners and management are still reeling from this, so any words of encouragement to them would be much appreciated.
> An earlier posting mentioned the Chamber of Commerce as a place to put pressure. Please remember, the Chamber has nothing to do with law enforcement and can do nothing in this matter. They feel as helpless as the rest of us.
> _________________
> Kel Thomas
> NSS 57559
> Permian Basin Speleological Society


The more people write in the better these laws will be. 
I got the photo and had to enlarge it to hopefully enhance detail... this is a before/after photo... 
Please help if you can, however you can!


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## MA-Caver

A news story about the vandalism... :angry: :rpo: :flammad: :cuss: http://www.caver.net/KLST News.mpg


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## MA-Caver

Ok, now back to the prettier side of caving.  Went out to instruct a relative newbie on how to use a particular piece of rappelling equiptment and to introduce her to some ascending techniques that she hadn't tried before. While having a picnic lunch on top of the cliff (not in a romantic sort of way  ) she gotten a call from another caver asking if we'd like to do an 88 foot pit. I was up for it and so we went from there after de-rigging. 
When we got to the pit she "backed-out" and didn't want to do the drop. Probably had bats in her stomach (cavers, *don't* have butterflies). So myself and a fella named Rodney went on down. It turned out to be a very nice pit with pretties decorating the drop all the way down. 
After that enroute back home she gets another call from another caver inviting (us) to go do yet another cave. :idunno: Seems the thing to do 'round dese here parts... I said yeah sure. 
Turned out it was to a cave I'd been once before. My (new) friend Julie, and her  boyfriend (??) Dane hadn't been. So it would seem that I would be leading the trip. This isn't that big of a deal since the cave is pretty straight forward and nigh impossible to get lost in. It's also profusely decorated and has a very "bomb-proof" gate on it to protect the delicacies inside. 
The photos show how well a cave can be protected by use of a gate. The "broken" spelothems are from previous vandalism, as the cave was discovered some 50-70 years ago and people back then didn't know better. Some folks still don't  . 
Enjoy 
1. Inside view of the gate
2. The lady that I spent the day training/caving with  
3. Look under one of those rocks to the left and it's Sally... the Cave Salamander. (wish I had a zoom lens) 
4. The beginning of the reason for the gate. These were all over the entire cave's ceiling. 
5. Some of the nicer formation groups to be found. We had to be careful of the small pools of literally crystal clear water here and there throughout.


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## MA-Caver

5 more pics of the cave, Cedar Ridge Crystal Cave in South Pittsburg Tennessee. 

1. A broken stalactite (hangy-downy) valiantly tries to repair itself. It may at one time or another... but not in our lifetime(s) nor our great-great-great grand-children's lifetimes.... but eventually, geologically speaking of course. 

2. Julie lends some scale to the size of the room and the formations. 

3. These are covered with a beautiful & delicate gypsum type formations. Origins of how one type of formation can grow on top of another are still being stuided... in other words... don't ask me :idunno:  

4. Here Julie carefully negotiates a path through a formation choke. Those that were broken years ago allow us to push further inside. Forging new paths is highly discouraged. 

5. There were so much to see and too much to photograph. Right about here I ran out of film... (need a digital cam with a 10 gig card).


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## Dave Leverich

Spelunking looks phenomenal.

One thing though, I love rappelling, but I'm not as into the climb back up heh, are ascenders used much?


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## Ceicei

Dave Leverich said:


> Spelunking looks phenomenal.
> 
> One thing though, I love rappelling, but I'm not as into the climb back up heh, are ascenders used much?



Yes, ascenders are used a lot, especially with vertical caves.  When you go down, you need to go up.  Some caves, however, can be "free climbed" and others (needing ascenders) have serious depth!!!  I haven't been in very many horizontal caves though.  Types of caves vary by region.   

MA-Caver was my caving trainer in Utah before he moved to Tennessee.

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

Boy, I'm glad now I don't have to be the _*ONLY*_ one replying to questions on this thread!


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## Ceicei

MA-Caver said:


> Boy, I'm glad now I don't have to be the _*ONLY*_ one replying to questions on this thread!



Yeah!  After Christmas, I'll be going on more trips and add on to this thread....  Danny wants to go on his second trip with me, so I'll be getting more to go on the team.   I'm going to be talking to some other experienced cavers to led us.

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

Did yet another really neat cave in the TAG country area. TAG is the caver acronymn for Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia (no, not shesulsa ..  ). 
This was at Signal Light Cave which is roughly about 15 minutes from my house. An appalling easy hike of about 1/2 mile from where we parked (Utah hikes can kill a person ... figuratively speaking). 
This is an exerpt from a trip report I wrote about. Along with photos. What is really neat about these are the Civil War era signatures that can be found all over one room in this cave. Look at the dates on the first picture. Then see if MAYBE you might have a relative on the wall??  
Enjoy. 



> Eventually Kevin rounded us up and managed to find the passage he'd been searching. The one that led to the Signature room. Brian had told me about a room that had civil war era signatures on the wall that also had calcified over so they're permanent. What surprised me was how DEEP in the cave the signatures were. Especially since the only entrance was a 75 foot drop makes you wonder how those fellas from New-York got down in the cave and back out. Still it was really something to see that bit of history. The oldest signature I've seen in a Utah cave was dated by Emily Hansen in 1893 (I think?) ... So it's still neat to see that bit of history... now-a-days if someone did it we'd call them a vandal and stone them to death like the old testament.


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## MA-Caver

A couple more of the same trip... 1. the lady who led the trip for us, Ginger... and 2. Three of the other guys that joined in as well. MA-Caver, Bill and Alex. If I get more pics I'll post them here.


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## MA-Caver

Went caving today... a cave called Camp's Gulf at Fall Creek Falls Tennessee. 
Not much by way of formations (pretties) but omigod what rooms! Three of them were just plain massive as related to volume and square footage. The cave is mostly huge piles of breakdown in gigantic rooms. One room is over 3 acres in volume and another is even larger. But the rooms are piled very high with colossal stacks of breakdown (pieces of the ceiling fallen to the floor). It is somewhat difficult to get around in this cave and navigation can also be a problem if you're not familiar with it. There are many steep climbs and descents. There are actually not very many formations in comparison to the huge overall size of the cave. I was very impressed. Here is a photo taken by Peter and Ann Bosted (famous cave photographers) of just one of the big rooms in the cave. I can't imagine the amount of time and lighting it took to get the shot... my own head-lamp could barely reach the far wall.


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## MA-Caver

Neversink, probably THE most beautiful pit I've ever done! Check it owt! The first guy is Me, the next is the photographer's daughter Cassie (who at 16 is kicking butt in the caving community with her new skills) and Marty a new friend. I'm friends with the photographer but...  prudence says not too friendly with his daughter.


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## MA-Caver

> The below link is to a memorial web page for Jasper the Caving Dog.
> Jasper was the pet of two cavers, Miles Drake and Joanne Smith. He loved to go caving and would even do vertical in his own doggy harness. Sadly Jasper passed away, due to old age. The web site has pictures of Jasper caving and pictures of the memorial hike that several of us did to spread his ashes in a remote cave he helped find and explore. About a year ago Miles & Jo got a new dog, Flad, who they are training to cave.
> Regards,
> Susan Posey
> 
> http://www.psc-cavers.org/jasper/


I've never met this animal (or his owners) but thought it was a neat and moving tribute for a dog. Pictures abound in the link. The last 3 sets of pictures details the placement of the dog's ashes in the cave.


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## Kacey

MA-Caver said:


> I've never met this animal (or his owners) but thought it was a neat and moving tribute for a dog. Pictures abound in the link. The last 3 sets of pictures details the placement of the dog's ashes in the cave.



What a great memorial - and the dog was 14 - he lived a good long life, and it was pretty obvious his people loved him.


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## Ceicei

My son and I will be going on a caving trip the weekend of April 21st.  We will visit at least two caves, with possibility of up to five caves.  I'll bring my camera and let you know how the trip goes.

- Ceicei


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## MA-Caver

Ceicei said:


> My son and I will be going on a caving trip the weekend of April 21st.  We will visit at least two caves, with possibility of up to five caves.  I'll bring my camera and let you know how the trip goes.
> 
> - Ceicei


Please do... glad that you guys are still at it. I miss caving with you and Byron and hope to do so again in the near future... whenever that may be.


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## Brian R. VanCise

MACaver those are just some stunning photograph's on this page.  Thanks for sharing. (makes me want to take up caving right now)


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## MA-Caver

Brian R. VanCise said:


> MACaver those are just some stunning photograph's on this page.  Thanks for sharing. (makes me want to take up caving right now)



You gotta thank Flatlander for starting this thread, I love caving as much as I love MA and was thrilled to be able to share it and help the awareness of it all. 

If you want to check out more about caving then go to www.caves.org it's the best (IMO) place to start.  

Thanks again to Flatlander :asian:


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## MA-Caver

Went caving this past Sunday. To a place called Whiteside Cave. No rope work involved, but oh my the mud. Pics below tell the story. There are no interior shots because by the time we got to where it's pretty hands were covered with mud and the guy liked his digital camera too much to muck it all up. Still the before and after pics like I said tell the story.  enjoy

The cave entrance (second photo) rests along side a small creek bed. It's pretty extensive, we must've traveled over two miles inside, then it got muddy (3rd and 4th pics). 

The girls had a total blast. One of them was saying she was making up for lost time as a kid when her mom wouldn't let her play in the mud.


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## MA-Caver

And yet another caving adventure. This time to world famous (but still wild) Rumbling Falls Cave... why world famous...umm, well it was at least featured in National Geographic magazine once... http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0203/q_n_a.html but the better photos can be found ... here... http://www.darklightimagery.net/RFC/thumbs.html 
The cave is also the site of a battle between conservationists and a local sewage plant which would dump it's waste water into the area where the cave is... reading about it here... http://www.darklightimagery.net/RFC/main.html 

Here are some teaser photos until my caving buddy sends me (via e-mail) the photos of our trip... which I'll post here most assuredly.  The map of the cave has a scale 737 jet airliner drawn below the "profile" view of the "Rumble Room"... it helps put things in perspective.


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## MA-Caver

This is the BlogSpot of my friend John aka Wolf who posted my trip report (lengthy) and his photos together ... enjoy!  http://gypsumwolf.blogspot.com/


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## MA-Caver

HAD to share this pic... of me rappelling down a short drop (25 feet) taken by one of the people we met in Rumbling Falls Cave (TN). He wasn't too happy with it but I love it! The "smoke" is actually body vapor and is a (cave) photographer's bane. Almost no way to really avoid it because it's a constant cloud of steam. Still sometimes it makes for a cool shot.


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## hong kong fooey

Great PICS MACAVER keep up the good work


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## MA-Caver

Thanks... more to come!


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## MA-Caver

Wow. Two of my friends are in this History Channel program coming up soon. The woman Hazel Barton with whom I've had the joy to cave with and be on a couple of survey (mapping) projects with. And Brandon Kowallis the young fella with dark (short) hair who was on the shoot as a support person. He's the one who says "...he's screaming, he's in shock..." That's my buddy!  Ceicei knows him too!  
[yt]cQWeVUB0MYM[/yt] Oh and there's a one word usage of "f-ing" in it so fair warning. 
Hazel's little spiel about the filming http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?p=38184&sid=9b8269779e30e6cc694c81d48690ad94#38184


> All,
> Last summer, Paul Burger and myself, along with climber John Climaco, hosted a TV show for the History Channel with the dubious title of "Journey to the Center of the Earth". We didn't get anywhere near the center of the Earth, but we did go to Naj Tunich Cave in Guatemala, which was a sacred cave for the ancient Maya.
> The producers of the show were very conscientious and worked hard with us to make sure that a good caving ethic and safety message was given - they had a real desire to see a good product that cavers would be supportive of.
> Unfortunately, during filming we had a significant incident and self-rescue. One of the members of the team failed to let the others know that they suffered from a medical problem that basically left them incapacitated ~420 feet down a 600 foot deep pit. With much help from Brandon Kowallis, John Climaco, Benjy and Dawn von Cramon and many of the film crew, we succeeded in pulling the injured caver out in ~21 hours.
> The final TV show looks great, however the History Channel decided not to film any more because they said that NO ONE IS INTERESTED IN CAVES!!
> (someone needs to write to the history channel eh?)
> Anyway, here is the trailer for it on Youtube - it's an unofficial version that was put up anonymously, so it has an unedited cuss word (be warned) and there was an issue figuring out how deep 420 feet was in floors. But you'll get the feel for it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The show will air June 25th at 10 PM on the History Channel. If you'd like to tell the History Channel whether you liked it and are interested in caves, maybe they'll make more. If you didn't - that'd be good to know as well!!
> Enjoy,
> Hazel


It's awesome. Heh. I'll try to find out more about the "rescue" and how they accomplished it. I've a fairly good idea on what they did but still be interested. Each incident is radically different from the next so... stay tune to the same Bat Time, same Bat Channel.


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## MA-Caver

Ask and you'll receive. I asked Hazel Barton to write up a report on what happened with the injured caver and the subsequent rescue... here's what I got.  Having done stuff like this I can imagine very well the circumstances. Pretty hairy. 


> http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?p=38211#38211
> Without going into a huge amount of detail, the caver dislocated his shoulder about 420 feet down an ~600 foot deep pit  the pit has a number of rope drops, he was below a 70, 270, 15, 20 and 15 when the dislocation occurred (he slipped in a muddy passage and tried to grab the wall, only to dislocate his shoulder). We rigged a traverse line and pushed/pulled him up and awkward climb into a chamber below the last 15 rope.
> 
> Given the difficulty in accessing the cave, the fact that the arm had relocated, the good spirits of the injured caver and the fact that we were at the previous limit of exploration, the team decided to split up, with two members pushing to the bottom to determine whether there were any Maya artifacts there  the reason for the permit and the push.
> 
> I climbed and then re-rigged the 15 and 20 climbs to make them easier for the injured caver to move up with an incapacitated arm. He climbed these successfully. At the bottom of the second 15 rope he decided to climb up into a narrow crevice where the distance was shorter (more like ~10 feet) rather than the open 15 climb. In this crevice, the caver dislocated his knee due to a previous injury. I free climbed up above, performed a change-over for him and lowered him back down the rope. I then climbed back down and we relocated his knee. The caver went into shock at this point and I realized that we had a much more serious situation on our hands.
> 
> I made the caver more comfortable, and sat and waited 2 hours for the other two team members to return from their exploration and told them of the situation. They then helped me get the injured caver back up the 15 climb and we made him comfortable in a small room below the 270 climb. At this point we decided not to rig any kind of haul system without additional caver assistance and Brandon and I left the cave to initiate a rescue.
> 
> We climbed the two pits and exited the cave (we were about a mile back) in about an hour and started the hike out to an area where we knew we could get cell-phone reception. Taking note that the local Maya had warned us about snakes, we were able to identify a coral snake without stepping on it outside the cave (Arrghh!) and hiked carefully up the hill to get cell phone reception  it was now 2 AM. We were finally able to get everyone awake in the hotel, via a call to the US where someone actually answered the phone. In the meantime, Brandon returned to the cave with food for both cavers and a thermarest for the injured caver, who was able to sleep comfortably.
> 
> A rescue was initiated that included Dawn and Benjy von Cramon (both GA cavers) and John Climaco (a mountaineer with training in crevasse rescue). Due to the dangerous nature of the road to the cave (Banditos), the Guatemalan Special Forces were called in to lead the convoy of rescuers and deal with any gun-fights (Arrrrrgghhhh!!) youll have to watch the TV show for the rest, but the caver was injured at 4 PM and exited the cave at 1 PM, whereupon the Special Forces made up a stretcher. With help from the local Maya, he was then carried to a waiting car.
> 
> I do want to mention that when you are watching the show, the camera crew was critically important to the rescue, providing muscle for hauling and bringing food, water and other supplies to the rescue team. At no time did they try to film during the rescue - equipment was immediately put down to help. The exceptions in the footage that youll see is when the cavers, with some down time and understanding the situation, picked up the cameras and figured out how to film bits. I don't think we did such a bad job...
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> H


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## MA-Caver

This is the link to the behind the scenes look at the program. Seems my buddy was one of the still photographers on the shoot. Pretty cool shots of the country side, the people (beautiful) and of the interior of the cave and parts of the rescue.  Check it out! 
http://www.brandonkowallis.com/OtherWork/Photographic/NajTunich/source/d3-444a.htm


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## MA-Caver

I missed this trip... and missed this little cutie ... everyone say AWWWWW! 

her father is behind her... the lady is another caver/friend.


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## MA-Caver

More cute pics of cute kids cute caving. Got permission from the dad to post 'em here. 
His son wanted to celebrate his birthday in a cave with his friends. Soooo here we go. 
Everyone say AWWWWWW! 
The 2nd pic is the birthday with his "G-paw"


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## MA-Caver

I had to share this particular caving trip with you all. Just doing something nice really makes a difference. 
*Neversink Pit: Raccoon Rescue and the Glow-worms.*
Small group of caving friends and I went to Neversink Pit in Northern Alabama the other night. Goal was to hang around in the pit long enough for it to get dark and to see and hopefully photograph the glow-worms. Recap: Neversink is a beautiful 162' pit that is 40 feet across by 100 feet long at the top and roughly 100 feet in diameter at the bottom, with many large ledges and ferns and other plants growing upon each and several small waterfalls down the entire depth. Probably one of the most beautiful spots on earth. Considered a TAG classic and owned by cavers and the SCCI organization.
When we arrived we met the group who had their truck parked down at the bottom of the hill at the parking area. Introductions were made and hopefully new friends made as well.
Funny thing, they neglected to tell us was the baby raccoon (alive) down at the bottom of the pit. Obviously they missed it. It was tucked away inside a hollow log and made it's presence known when one of our group moved too closely to the open end of the log and it growled at her. Startling the poor girl.
After studying the animal (not easy since it kept trying to worm it's way deeper into the log, it was concluded that it wasn't rabid, as rabid animals tend to do the opposite of what you expect them to do... i.e. it'd attack the lights that were illuminating it in the log. Likewise it wouldn't have stayed in the log and remained so quiet. Yes, I've seen rabid animals in various stages. This particular animal showed no such traits. Still we were cautious non-the-less. Given the size of the head/body and length of tail and the space in the log, I'd say that it was just barely less than a year old.
Using one of our coats and one of our (hastily empied) packs and a thick pair of gloves we managed to gently extract the little one out from it's hiding place and put it into the pack and zip it up (pictures can be found at http:ralph.rigidtech.com ... they'll be up soon enough...keep checking). One of us ascended up out of the pit with the pack tethered beneath his harness and walked down the hill a little ways and let it go.
*Awwww* moment: When he came back down he told us that at the surface he laid the pack down on the ground, unzipped it and stepped away and the little guy/gal (?) climbed out of the pack and looked up at him chittered and squeaked a moment then started to wander off... then came back a moment later looked up at him and squeaked and chittered at him again the wandered back off for good. It was as if giving thanks for rescuing him.
Given the depth of the pit, and the height/spaces between the ledges that it possibly bounced off of when it fell down it's a miracle that this little guy/gal survived the fall uninjured. Who knows how long it was down in there before we arrived. That it had water from the falls must've helped and probably it scavenged the salamanders and toads and other insects for food but still, I doubt that it would've found it's way out again without human intervention. It was a good deed and we all felt good about it.
We then waited around for dark, taking pictures here and there and one of us checking a small tight lead where the water from the falls trickled into an opening at the base of the pit. Looks like a dig possibility.
Eventually it got dark enough where individual glo-worms were able to be distinguished. They didn't "cover" the walls but I'm guessing we're too early in the year (or too late??) for the entire population to be out... or simply we didn't stay long enough inside.
Photos of the worms obviously needed a much longer exposure as attempts to (digitally) get them to show up came to naught.
Still it was a worthy attempt and made for a nice "lights-out" climb to the surface.
Great trip.
I'll post pics soon as I get 'em.


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## MA-Caver

As promised... the Pit and the Coon... :uhyeah: 

Told you the coon was cute. 
Other pics are of us trying to load the fella into my pack... the guy taking the picture was intimidated by it's growling and didn't want to get any closer  But we got it in the pack and began it's ascent to freedom. 
Pictures of the pit's surface... look for blue shirt on the far side. 
What it looks like going UP (look for person on the rope) the drop is 162 feet... freehanging.  
Brother and sister enjoying quality time together
Sister is just as cute as the coon plus it was her deepest rappel/ascent to date... she loved it. She also loved crawling down inside a tight spot to see if it continues (it didn't)
Then of course the last photo is what everyone feels like when they go caving with me...

More pics of this (and other trips) can be found at my sig.


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## Bob Hubbard

Note: Thread moved to Great Outdoors forum.


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## MA-Caver

Had to add this toon because it's one of my favorites of all time. 
(special thanks to Ping898 for finding it)
Calvin and Hobbes:


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## MA-Caver

This is just plain cool! 
Lehman Caves National Monument. 

Click where it says to fullscreen and use your mouse holding down the left button and scroll around... 360 degrees of coolness! 

http://www.onlinenevada.org/media/?id=568


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## MA-Caver

This is a human interest story written by a gal who is a friend of a friend of mine. Called "The Puppy Who Lived" it's a true story... pics and everything. 
Unfortunately the person who is doing this hasn't been caught... but eventually he will be. Hopefully he'll get his. 



> The Puppy Who Lived
> By: Kelly Norwood  (Atlanta, Georgia)
> kelly_norwood@mail.dnr.state.ga.us
> 
> There is a person living around Fox Mountain Georgia that seems to hate dogs. He hates them to the point that its not good enough to kill them with a gun or some other simple means. Instead he's finding sport going to nearby caves with pit entrances and tossing the dogs into the pit to kill them. I cringed this morning reading on tag-net that yet another dog was found dead, this time in Cemetery Pit. Oh what I wouldn't do to this person if I knew who they were!
> This weekend Chris Compton, Marlena Compton, and myself all decided to go to a somewhat nearby cave for a nice short and leisurely trip.
> Rusty's cave seemed to fit the bill. For those who have not been there, the cave entrance is a nice 40-foot pit. When I got to the bottom, I looked up and screamed when much to my surprise I saw two little eyes staring back at me! I realized after I screamed that it was just a puppy! This was the first time I've ever had anything like this happen. The puppy was shy at first, but after about 2 minutes, it practically climbed up into my lap.
> Chris and Marlena rappelled down next, and together we formed a plan to get the puppy out of the cave. Chris, decided he was the fastest hiker of us, so he volunteered to climb out of the cave, and run down to the car to get an extra rope and some bags. Meanwhile, Leslie Colton, Brad Long, Jonny Prouty and some other cavers arrived in the area and came up to help out with the rescue. Brad dropped down an extra rope, and when Chris returned, he dropped the bags down to us. Marlena and I packed up
> the puppy. We were worried that the puppy would squirm out of the pack while they pulled him out, so I climbed one rope while one of the guys slowly pulled up the other rope with the puppy attached. Puppy was very good and sat almost still the entire trip up. He was so good and still, I was worried at one point that he might be caught up in the rigging somehow, so mid-way up I reached into the bag to check. Turns out he was doing just fine!
> Once at the top and free from the bag, he ate loads of Jonny's food, cheese crackers and granola bars, and clearly hadn't eaten for a while. Puppy was also limping quite badly. Leslie, a nurse, was able to look at one of his legs and determined that it was probably broken from his rough landing being tossed into the cave. It was clearly a miracle that he survived - 40 feet is like falling off a 4 story building.
> Chris and Marlena took him home with them and got him to a veterinarian yesterday (Sunday). Again a miracle, he is a very healthy pup with a broken leg as his only medical problem. The vet was so touched by the rescue story he really charged us almost nothing for the check up and to re-set his leg and put on a cast. He was a big hit at the vet clinic too where all the vet techs had to come by and meet "the puppy who lived".
> Here are some neat photos that Chris and Marlena took of the rescue... http://www.flickr.com/photos/22258766@N05/
> The Comptons and I already have several pets, and Mike and I have the maximum that our county will allow, so we now have the difficult task of finding a home for "Rusty" (named after Rusty's Cave). So, if anyone happens to know of a nice family in the Georgia area that is interested in having a dog, this one comes with the sweetest face and a great story! Feel free to email me if you know anyone that is interested.


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## MA-Caver

Quick video footage of a cave trip that I was on ... you get a quick shot of yours truly. The spot where the gal had went through was tight, slicked with mud and had a drop off of 8 feet on the other side if you didn't catch yourself on a outcropping of rock. 
Still neat. Enjoy. 
[yt]TOFnLqO4JKY[/yt]


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## MA-Caver

This is an article I written for the multi-grotto newsletter, The Utah Caver some six or seven years ago, Re-reading it I found that it's still relative to anything that I've been doing today. This article (and others to follow) is left basically the way it is originally written, there are a few modifications here and there and corrections with mistakes that I've learned since then. Otherwise, it's the same as I've had it.
It's a bit long... find a quiet time to read it. 


> Ascending & Center Of Gravity
> by Ralph E. Powers (Timpanogos & Bear River Grottos)
> 
> When I first moved to Utah I really knew very little about vertical caving. I knew of it but not everything. I still dont. Its one of the things that I love about it because one is always learning. Over the course of ten years Ive learned a lot. What to do and especially what not to do. This has kept me alive and offered immense amount of enjoyment. To those I learned from; I thank you.
> Ive the opportunity and privilege to pass on what Ive learned from my peers and instructors to a number of people that have entered our world of caving. Some have gone and some have remained. All of them I hope have learned something from everyone of us.
> 
> I constantly think about my training and go over in my head during idle hours things that Ive done in the past, things I plan to do, things that Ive done right and things Ive done wrong. UCS&R (Utah Cave Search & Rescue), calls this brain training. This is a good way to keep ones mind sharp when it concerns vertical caving. When a mistake happens, this so-called brain training can go a long way to help one figure out what to do (or not to do). Actual practice in a controlled environment takes it that much further and facilitates in actually doing (or not doing) what the mind has been taught.
> 
> With one of the things I learned related to vertical caving I learned years before I moved to Utah. At the time I was studying several forms of martial arts. One of my instructors taught me a valuable lesson that I am able to apply to vertical training; knowing where is your center of gravity.
> The strongest muscles in the body are of course the thighs and calves or legs. These muscles support all of the weight of our bodies, from the head down to the pelvis region while were standing or walking or running. The next strongest set of muscles are those found in the upper chest, back, shoulders and arms. In the middle of all these muscles is the humans center of gravity. This is usually located around the solar plexis.
> One of my (martial arts) instructors taught me that knowing where ones center of gravity, either on yourself or another person helps in determining where the balance is. He showed me how, by seeing where my opponents center of gravity is I would be able to simply push them off balance with little effort. Balance also goes a long way in doing a successful (read: less tiring) ascent during vertical caving.
> 
> Ive watched many cavers ascend. The most successful of them are those who instinctively know or have been taught or learned by trial and error, to keep their legs (the strongest muscles) directly beneath their center of gravity. Whether using a frog, mitchell, double or single bungee rig or even prussiks, utilizing this knowledge of the center of gravity helps in an nearly effortless ascent.
> Gravity as most people know is the pull of the earth's center due to inertia as the earth spins on it's axis.
> Humans (and many animals) learn how to counter the pull of gravity on their own centers (balance points) in the first few weeks/months of their life. This learning is how we're able to maintain upright on two legs. We are constantly re-adjusting our bodies against the pull of gravity on our centers. Watch someone or yourself very closely as they stand for a long moment. Their weight shifts constantly. More weight on one foot then transferring it to the other and then back again. Even the most stalwart Marine standing ram-rod straight at attention at their post is never perfectly still.
> 
> Far too many people have a tendency to lean back away from the rope because they find it too tiresome to support their upper bodies upright on the rope. The seat harness is positioned directly below most peoples center of gravity and is usually designed to make full use of the pivot point that is found there.
> When a person leans back their center of gravity goes with them, thus accenting the pull of gravity upon their centers. Their legs stick out on one side of the rope and their upper bodies out the other side. Gravity is going to be pulling on the center, which is where most of the body's weight is.
> They then try to push themselves up the rope at an angle and find it nearly impossible to do so unless they call in reinforcements that consists of the upper body muscles and pull themselves up to their ascenders. Now a lot of people are strong here. Some can bench press their weight and do half a dozen or more chin ups on a bar above their heads. Nothing wrong here I guess except that when they reach a lip, overhang or the edge of the drop, theyll find that the strength and energy that they need to get over the obstruction is either not enough or non-existent. This is because some people have a limited amount of energy reserved for x amount of exertion. Once they exceed that amount things become difficult no matter how strong they are. That is another martial art concept which should be discussed in another article.
> As a person leans back and attempts to ascend up the rope they are in effect curving themselves up the rope. The old axiom goes that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. This holds true in vertical caving. Keeping the feet/legs underneath the center of gravity and pushing straight up makes for the shortest distance one has to travel up the rope.
> 
> The Frog system is probably the best user of this concept. A person literally sits and stands almost parallel to the rope theyre climbing on, and the primary ascender, the croll is positioned at/near the center of gravity, with the hand ascender also positioned there when at sit/rest. Their arms, ideally help in maintaining balance. The rope-walker or double bungee is the next best example as a chest roller/box helps the caver remain upright during the ascent. So long as the climber uses only their leg muscles to propel them up the rope they have a nearly effortless climb. despite the legs having the strongest muscles they are more used to moving lineally in a horizontal motion supporting the body's weight. On rope however the leg muscles are constantly pushing up against the pull of gravity on the body thus more effort is expended over a shorter relative distance.
> I've a friend who was a track and field athlete when they were younger, when I said that the next vertical drop they would have to ascend would be 95 feet they thought it would be no problem. They found out the hard way that it was not quite so easy as they expected.
> Ive seen too many people pull themselves up the rope with their arms and use their legs to keep them balanced. This bass-ackwards way of thinking and ascending causes problems when encountering lips and over hangs. Numerous trips to Spanish Moss cave with beginners have laid evidence to this. Most cavers that know this cave understand exactly where Im talking about. Here not only does the edge curve sharply under but also vees inward and the rope is usually caught inside of that. This doesnt cause a problem on rappelling but woe to the inexperienced when they ascend it. I now-a-days try to be the first one up (if there is someone else to help attach gear on correctly at the bottom), and wait above that lip to help the beginners from becoming stranded at that point.
> Conserving the upper arm strength by utilizing the muscles in the legs makes for a great ascent. Energy is saved and enthusiasm stays high and confidence gets a tremendous boost. It took me several years of practice and hundreds of feet of experience before I remembered the center of gravity trick that my martial art instructor taught me. Once I applied this principal to my vertical caving Ive been having a wonderful time since.
> 
> This principal works as well for rappelling. Keeping ones legs and upper torso balanced around the center of gravity allows the weight to be distributed evenly and affords a smoother descent. It also keeps the back of your head from banging on the rock wall behind you. Your feet should only stick out when (are you looking down?) an outcropping of rock or a bend in the wall appears and you need to push yourself out past that point, or if going down the wall then I've found that keeping my legs at roughly 45 degrees angle down from my waist helps maintain balance. Keeping your legs spaced evenly apart (usually in line with the outside of your shoulders) helps maintain side to side balance around your center of gravity.
> 
> I try to teach this same principal to anyone that wants to learn how to rappel/ascend. It doesnt matter what system that they want to use. So long as they know where their center of gravity is and utilize only the muscles in their legs to get them up the rope, saving their arm strength for those nasty lips and under-hangs, theyll have a easier time at it. There is much to learn and to remember when vertical caving. Repetitive practice helps ingrain that into the psyche and helps when trouble arises. Understanding how things work and why helps prevent trouble, sometimes.


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## MA-Caver

This is a must see. 
Caver Dave Buchner plays flute while descending and ascending *226* foot Valhalla pit cave in Jackson County, Alabama (owned by Southeast Cave Conservancy Inc. or SCCI ). Mike Crockett is videographer.

A bit of history. Located in North Georgia this magnificent pit was the scene of a terrible accident. In 1984 two young cavers were preparing to climb up out of the pit when a 30'X30' slab of rock broke off from the wall above and fell upon both of them, killing both instantly. Cavers are anywhere from hesitant to leery about doing this pit since then. Those that do brave the pit do so reverently. The flute player's intention was to honor the two cavers. 
Yes, at times two people do climb on the rope at the same time. This is known as tandem climbing. It's very safe and sometimes helpful to have a companion on a such a long ascent. 
Enjoy.

[gv]-6038711942772418976[/gv]
I have yet to do this but it is on my to do list this year. Hopefully I'll have our own videographers and photographers to record the event. 
The original video with a bigger screen
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6038711942772418976&q=concert+in+Valhalla&total=25&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


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## MA-Caver

This is a video taken by a new caver friend of mine. War Eagle Cave in North Eastern Alabama. The pit is 137 feet deep and beautiful. The rest of the cave is 2 miles of river passage. Biggest problem is getting enough light for the video camera. 
That's me by the way in the red suit with a black bat on the back.  
[yt]XUV9TA-hmoE[/yt]


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## MA-Caver

Interested reading for those who are interested. :uhyeah: Found this on another blog site where the list of the 10 deepest caves in the world (mainly in Europe and Eurasia) ... the deepest is over 7,000 feet down. 
We measure caves in length and in depth and list them separately because both have their individual challenges. The longest is still Mammoth Cave Kentucky at well over 300 miles of passageways... and growing. 
My personal deepest I've been is still at -1165 feet in Neffs Canyon Cave. The thought of doing 7 or 5 times as much on one trip (even if over several days)... whoo... I dunno man. Think I'll leave that for the young. 

Here's the link, enjoy. 
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/offbeat-news/10-deepest-caves-in-the-world/1185

(thoughts and comments are appreciated here too :uhyeah: )


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## MA-Caver

Cavers come from all walks of life. Doctors, engineers, blue and white collar workers, naturalists, biologists, computer geeks and what have you. 
In such an interesting pool of people talent in other areas comes out. Writing, drawing, painting, poetry, and music. 
Cave ballads have long been a standing tradition amongst cavers. Songs about the caves, the people who explore them. They're funny, sad, fun and many times take a familiar song and re-write the words to suit the situation. 
Now caving music videos... like this one. A love song (with captions)... 
[yt]2E8D9zOHg1M[/yt]


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## MA-Caver

..... stand by


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## MA-Caver

HAD to share these two pics of a proud caver papa who took his daughter on her first caving trip. Just too precious not to share. 
Gotten permission first of course from the daddy ( a friend of mine) and here you go. 

Said that she enjoyed her first cave a lot (evident from first photo) and did a particular crawl way three times. 

She pouted on the announcement "time to go", evident from second photo. 

Just a couple of AWWWW moments.


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## Kacey

She's a cutie!


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## MA-Caver

They found Superman's Fortress of Solitude and it's a dangerous place... click on video and other features ... very fascinating hole in the ground... I don't think I'd be wanting to visit THAT place anytime soon. 

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/giant-crystal-cave-3569/Overview#tab-Overview


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## MA-Caver

I hope a number of people get to see this before it gets buried... but how romantic can you get?? Try a wedding down a 140 foot deep pit and a beautiful pit it is. 
Check it out. http://brinabatandgraybat.blogspot.com/2008/05/perfect-day-may-1st-2008.html 
Here is a stunning photo of the bride and groom down inside the pit. 
Comments are appreciated. :uhyeah:


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## MA-Caver

*Cave vandals caught and punished*



by *Caverdale* on Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:48 pm 
  			 			As the result of action taken today, October 23, before a federal magistrate in Salt Lake City, Utah, I received the following e-mail:
-------------
"Well, it was a very good day in court. We got guilty pleas from all parties involved in the June 2008 break-in at Crystal Cave. Total amounts recovered are $1475.00 in fines and $1919.30 in restitution. Thanks again to Dale Green who provided the trail cameras that made it all possible and to Ranger Carrie Pope who investigated the suspects. Yahoo!! Now I can forget about all those days hauling heavy steel and 275 lb. arc welders up that stinking hill."

Ray Kelsey
Outdoor Recreation Planner
BLM Salt Lake Field Office
-------------
Game trail cameras were strategically placed to capture anything passing by the way to the cave. At first they didn't work for various reasons, but mostly from operator error. Finally I got it right and caught 4 people on their way to a beer party in the cave. The leader is shown below. The photo is washed out because although I thought the lens was pointing directly north, it was pointed to the west and sun rays washed out the exposure somewhat. However, a little Photoshopping got what was needed. BLM Enforcement Officer Carrie Pope deserves a great deal of credit for eliciting oral and signed confessions from the culprits through some very ingenious methods. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



















I've been to this cave and while much of it has been trashed out and grafftiti, there are still some nice stuff. But the cave was gated mainly to protect a colony of bats that are on the "threatened list" Those guys brought beer and spray paint to add their own little mark on this cave. It's out in the middle of nowhere and thus they thought they could get away with it. HA! 
Just because it's out in the middle of nowhere doesn't mean it gives it an O.K. to do what you want to it. 
Game trail cameras were used to great effect here.


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## MA-Caver

> *Bat Lady Praises Winged Pest Killer*
> 
> *Grape growers learn value of natural insect controller*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JEFF KAN LEE / The Press Democrat
> A pallid bat is shown to Sonoma County Farm Bureau members Thursday by bat expert Patricia Winters. It's the only bat species locally that hunts on the ground, eating potato bugs and grubs.
> 
> 
> By ROBERT DIGITALE
> THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
> 
> http://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...350?Title=Bat_Lady_praises_winged_pest_killer
> Published: Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 4:20 a.m.
> Last Modified: Saturday, December 13, 2008 at 5:40 a.m.
> She isn't a morning critter, which may explain why the female nestled in Patricia Winters' hand didn't look like a voracious predator of the night.
> The Mexican free-tailed bat, which fit between Winters' index and ring fingers, nonetheless was billed as a formidable ally for the 50 farmers and pest controllers gathered Thursday in Santa Rosa.
> "She's a little bat," said Winters, known to Bay Area schoolchildren as the Bat Lady. "But she can fly faster than any other bat in the world. And she can fly up to two miles high, and all she eats are crop pests."
> This last fact mattered most to those listening at the Sonoma County Farm Bureau.
> The grape growers and pest workers had gathered for a presentation on the value of bats in insect management. And Winters, president of the Forestville-based California Bat Conservation Fund, provided a nonstop fountain of facts as well as three live bats for viewing.
> Winters showed graphics from Doppler radar and thermal imaging to depict billions of moths moving north from Mexico into southeast Texas at a height of almost two miles. Each night the moths run into what Winters called the largest concentration of mammals on the planet, an estimated 200 million Mexican free-tailed bats living in caves outside Austin and San Antonio.
> Only 2 percent of the moths ever make it past the bats, which can fly at speeds of 60 mph, Winters said. One recent study estimated that the bats prevent about $1 billion a year in U.S. crop damage.
> 
> 
> Kathy Cowan, who volunteers with Winters, said she has a standard argument for convincing women about the value of bats. She focuses on the work the animals do in pollinating tropical fruit and reseeding rain forests.
> *"If we didn't have bats," Cowan said, "we wouldn't have chocolate."*


That's why I love the little critters. No bats, no chocolate, no chocolate no happy (single women), no single happy women... no sex. :wah:


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## MA-Caver

*blows off the dust from this thread....*  


(is this thing on?)... test... test...  


uhh..


Hello welcome back... thought I'd dust this thread off and post some pics of a trip I went on recently. I've been to this particular cave/pit before but it was during the night and thus didn't get to see it as I did just this past Sunday.  


:idunno: just thought I post something that I thought was beautiful.
This pit is in Alabama, considered a "classic" by the cavers in the area. The depth is 162 feet. We arrived about 11 am and stayed til about 2pm. Timing is indeed everything.  


Enjoy


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## MA-Caver

Went out caving again. Being unemployed and on a saturday and a generous friend who paid for the gas (and dinner afterwards) allowed me to knock a cave that I've wanted to do for years off my personal "to do" list. 
This is Valhalla (no we did NOT find Thor's hammer  ) This cave is infamous because roughly 25 years ago two cavers were killed when a piece of the ceiling broke loose and came crashing down on top of them, the first photo shows me standing next to said rock to give you an idea of the size.  The rest are just pictures of the shaft and my rappelling and ascending (climbing) into/out of it. To see me look for anything red and tiny along the far wall ... that'll give you the idea of the size of the pit. Took me a leisurely 15-20 minutes to climb out of that. Wasn't rushing, I was enjoying. 
The depth is -227 feet and it's free hanging after the first 10-15 feet. 

Enjoy


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## Big Don

rappelling is a blast, but, ascending looks like work


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## MA-Caver

Big Don said:


> rappelling is a blast, but, ascending looks like work


Rappelling IS a blast but ascending isn't as hard as it looks. If you've the right system you can climb all day. One of the fellas that came with us... is in his mid-late 60's... he went up and down that particular pit (Valhalla) 18 times while we were there... that's going all way to bottom and climbing all way back up... made a combine total of 4086 feet that day (18 X 227). By the time I got up to the top... I found out just how badly in shape I was. But I'll go back there again and probably do better. 
Go back a few pages on this thread you should find a bit about climbing systems. 

Enjoy


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## Sukerkin

My word!  There are two hopes of me ever having the guts to do that (with my fear of heights) ... and one of them is Bob :lol:.

Awe inspiring views my friend :bows:


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