# Grabbing with the index finger sticking out



## KrillinGO (Aug 8, 2010)

Which is more appropriate, grabbing with the INDEX finger sticking  out, or not sticking it out? I saw both ways of grabbing somebody's  wrist from different Hapkido schools. One explanation I have heard for  sticking the index finger out is for the flow of ki/energy. Can someone  please tell me more about it? Which way is more the right way, or more  traditional? 

Thanks


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## Steve (Aug 8, 2010)

KrillinGO said:


> Which is more appropriate, grabbing with the INDEX finger sticking out, or not sticking it out? I saw both ways of grabbing somebody's wrist from different Hapkido schools. One explanation I have heard for sticking the index finger out is for the flow of ki/energy. Can someone please tell me more about it? Which way is more the right way, or more traditional?
> 
> Thanks


I don't know about the index finger, but in high society, it's considered polite to stick out one's pinky.  

Seriously, though, I've not heard anything about index finger, but it's often a good idea to avoid using your thumb.  Rather than using a traditional grip, particularly if you're controlling a wrist or something like that, a monkey grip (where you grip only with your fingers, thumb on that same side) is a safer way to go.  In some cases, if you use your thumb, you can get caught in a wrist lock.  In others, it's just a good way to get your thumb broken.


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## dancingalone (Aug 8, 2010)

KrillinGO said:


> Which is more appropriate, grabbing with the INDEX finger sticking  out, or not sticking it out? I saw both ways of grabbing somebody's  wrist from different Hapkido schools. One explanation I have heard for  sticking the index finger out is for the flow of ki/energy. Can someone  please tell me more about it? Which way is more the right way, or more  traditional?
> 
> Thanks




In aikido, instructors often demonstrate with the index finger extended to make it easier for the students to follow the flow and path of the technique.  It can be a teaching tool in addition to the energy aspects.  Obvious as you gain experience the position of the fingers become less important in your mind since the key to all of this working anyway has to do with your center rather than the limbs.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 8, 2010)

When I studied Hapkido we never extended or separated the fingers durring grabs and other techniques, the explanation was they were too easy to break that way.


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## dortiz (Aug 8, 2010)

Covered before but why not. Extending the finger cranks your hand to an angle that changes the torque. It also pushes out the bone at the base of that finger which then digs in to pressure points nicely adding an extra touch.
See KHF LOGO.

Think about when you line up your punch so the knuckle, wrist, and arm bones create a straight line. When grabbing normally the line moves to V of your hand, not helpfull. By extending your finger that knuckle is now lined up with your entire arm like a punch would be and gives you significant leverage.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 10, 2010)

dortiz said:


> Covered before but why not. Extending the finger cranks your hand to an angle that changes the torque. It also pushes out the bone at the base of that finger which then digs in to pressure points nicely adding an extra touch.
> See KHF LOGO.
> 
> Think about when you line up your punch so the knuckle, wrist, and arm bones create a straight line. When grabbing normally the line moves to V of your hand, not helpfull. By extending your finger that knuckle is now lined up with your entire arm like a punch would be and gives you significant leverage.




But what stops a person from executing a counter by using that finger and doing a "peel and break"?  It becomes a convenient handle AND lever.


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## dortiz (Aug 11, 2010)

Usually the unbalancing and quick pain shot. Also you dont really stick it out up in the air. Its still in contact.
No point in trying to show the benfits on a forum, but to answer the post it should be taught in Hapkido.
Ten bonus points though for what I would call the right answer. Being grabbed, get hold of the smallest thing that will twist and break  : )


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## DMcHenry (Aug 11, 2010)

Besides getting a better grip with the thumb and last 3 fingers than with the thumb and index finger, what Dave said about the pressure point.

Everybody I know would see you as a beginner if you didn't have your ki finger (index finger) extended.  And yes, if you can grab a finger by all means break it off and keep it as a souvenir.


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## Disco (Aug 12, 2010)

whichever is your strong side, take your other hand, palm facing you and grab that hand and squeeze with your strong hand. First, with the index finger loose or extended and then with it closed like the other fingers. You decide which exerts more pressure/force and which is more likely to remain stronger during resistance.


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## bluekey88 (Aug 12, 2010)

not a Hapkido guy...but did many years of Aikido.  Our instructors did the index finger thing.  I was told that ti replicated how one grabbed a sword.  Pinky tightest, third finger slightly less and so on, until the index finger was barely touching (or sticking out).  Aikido/hapkido were derived from daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu...and were heavily influenced by weapons based systems in Japan.

That's my take.  I could be wrong.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 12, 2010)

The idea is not to use your whole hand to grab.
Sean


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## dortiz (Aug 12, 2010)

Ita about the angle. Extending the finger makes you angle down changing the torque. Try it : )


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## KrillinGO (Aug 12, 2010)

Thank you, can't you explain more about it? Appreciated


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## KrillinGO (Aug 12, 2010)

"The idea is not to use your whole hand to grab.
Sean"

Thank you, can you explain more about it? Appreciated


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## Cryozombie (Aug 23, 2010)

bluekey88 said:


> I was told that ti replicated how one grabbed a sword.  Pinky tightest, third finger slightly less and so on, until the index finger was barely touching (or sticking out).



This is actually a trick we use... You are correct about the grip, but again we never stick the finger out just close it loosley... however, you often see "Sword people" doing just that, sticking it out... and... right before they execute their cut/strike... they curl it in.  

It's an excellent way of knowing when to move and counter.  *wink*


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## 72ronin (Aug 23, 2010)

Experiment, you will find you can get a far better grip without the index finger as opposed to with it.

grab your own wrist with opposing hand, first with index included, then without.. 
Also apply lock on wrist, does not the index get in the way? it does doesnt it.  You get less thumb pressure to apply to the back of hand when its drawn lower due to usind index at crux of wrist, when index is not used your thumb is higher and can apply more pressure much more easily etc.


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## Hapkidoman (Dec 15, 2010)

It is not that complicated, the index finger is the dominate and strongest finger on the hand. When you grip with it, most of your energy is used in the index finger. When you point the index figner you can now grip with all 3 remaining fingers and thumb. Try gripping both ways with all your strength and see which way the grip is stronger.

Hapkidoman.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 15, 2010)

Why on God's green Earth would you make it that much easier for someone to break your finger?  Grip with it loosely maybe, but sticking out?!?  Someone grabs my wrist or arm with their finger sticking out, I'm going for the finger - easiest way to break the grip.  They can't even use their other arm to hit you, at least if they don't want a broken finger.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

Hapkidoman said:


> It is not that complicated, the index finger is the dominate and strongest finger on the hand. When you grip with it, most of your energy is used in the index finger. When you point the index figner you can now grip with all 3 remaining fingers and thumb. Try gripping both ways with all your strength and see which way the grip is stronger.



When gripping using the index finger, it is difficult to put power in your baby finger. I tend to use the thumb and baby finger as the leverage points on joint locks. When you grab with the index finger, then the pivot points become the thumb and index finger, which is weaker that having the pivot point be the thumb and baby finger. 

Also by not grabbing with the index finger, it creates a natural grove where the index finger was.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 16, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> This is actually a trick we use... You are correct about the grip, but again we never stick the finger out just close it loosley... however, you often see "Sword people" doing just that, sticking it out... and... right before they execute their cut/strike... they curl it in.



This is what we do. But we curl it in during the strike, not before.
And I guess that by then, the motion of the finger is not giving anything away that a 6 foot staff or sword moving rapidly towards you is not telling you as well.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 16, 2010)

For us, though, it comes (at least in part) from the spiritual teachings of the Kukishin traditions. In those, it's taught that the index finger, as the extension of the limb holding the weapon, is pointed to direct the Ki. This, from what I understand, is similar to some of the concepts in Hapkido and the way they work as well. In contrast, the Hakuun-related systems (Gyokko, Koto, Togakure) focus the Ki through the thumbs, with many kamae pointing them towards the heavens, created a connection between earth (where you are standing), man (yourself in kamae) and heaven (where the ki is directed - Ten Chi Jin.....).

Out of interest, Bruno, you start with the finger pointing, and then curl it in? A lot of swordsmanship I've gone through actually does the opposite, with the finger being pointed more through the cut, as that tightens the last few fingers, giving you a stronger, tighter grip as you impact the target, forming an integral part of te no uchi. I've heard it said that if you point the finger as you cut, it's impossible to lose your grip on the weapon. That said, Bojutsu tends to start with the finger pointed, although it seems to be kept out throughout the action of striking, in order to again get the proper mechanics for striking (in your grip).


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 16, 2010)

Bear in mind that I have absolutely *no* qualification in biken.
However, from what I understood, we start with fingers pointing out, and right before the strike connects, the fingers are curled in. Similar with Bo and Hanbo. My understanding may be incorrect of course. I always assumed that the reason for curling them inside is to prevent them from being hit by the weapon of the opponent

I think this is visible in the various genbukan clips that are floating around on youtube.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 16, 2010)

Personally, I've never really gone for the "well, they'd be a target" argument. If your opponent is close enough to take your finger with a weapon (typically sword here), then they're close enough to take your wrist, and actually do some effective damage. The finger just isn't a viable enough target, nor is it far enough removed from others that are. For me, it's always been more about the correct te no uchi and gripping methods.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 16, 2010)

Not as an actual target, but more as a consequence of one weapon sliding alongside the other. I've heard an eye witness account of someone losing an index finger that way, because he kept it straight instead of curling it in.


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## Empty Hands (Dec 16, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Personally, I've never really gone for the "well, they'd be a target" argument. If your opponent is close enough to take your finger with a weapon (typically sword here), then they're close enough to take your wrist, and actually do some effective damage. The finger just isn't a viable enough target, nor is it far enough removed from others that are. For me, it's always been more about the correct te no uchi and gripping methods.



That may well be true for swords and staves (keeping in mind Bruno's story) but the initial discussion centered around empty handed grabs.


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## Disco (Dec 16, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmx1rGGwdWI&feature=related

While most of the demo on Hapkido move to fast to actually see what position the hand/finger is in, this offered video does have a couple of slow scenes that you can readily see the hand/fingers. Watch and make your on assessment..............


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## dortiz (Dec 16, 2010)

By opening that finger you expose the inside of that knuckle and its aligned with your arm. Like punching with a straight fist. Besdides the leverage it also creates a big knob that digs in to the UKE. 
Now as you get better you clearly dont need to expose the finger as much. You learn to focus on the hand position.
Guys if you are not taught this you are not being taught Hapkido...sorry.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2010)

dortiz said:


> By opening that finger you expose the inside of that knuckle and its aligned with your arm. Like punching with a straight fist. Besdides the leverage it also creates a big knob that digs in to the UKE.
> Now as you get better you clearly dont need to expose the finger as much. You learn to focus on the hand position.
> Guys if you are not taught this you are not being taught Hapkido...sorry.


A full grab splits your focus.
Sean


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## dortiz (Dec 16, 2010)

Are you Sean B. Sir?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 16, 2010)

dortiz said:


> Are you Sean B. Sir?


That would be a no. I'm Sean W. :ultracool
Sean


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## Chris Parker (Dec 17, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> That may well be true for swords and staves (keeping in mind Bruno's story) but the initial discussion centered around empty handed grabs.


 
Very true, my post was more as an answer to Bruno's there. However I started with one of our traditions which as a "spiritual" reason for this finger pointing, as a method for directing energy. As I have heard this pointed finger refered to by Hapkido practitioners as a "Ki finger", would that be a concept used in the Hapkido reasoning? Directing the energy "through" the grab, or limb control (for the record, some of our other traditions do this with the thumbs, pointing them the way you want the energy to go).


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## dortiz (Dec 17, 2010)

Two Seans in Washington doing Hapkido  : )


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