# Is this legal in Bayarea California to carry out?



## Alan0354 (Oct 28, 2021)

I read online, it's confusing, I want to see if anyone know whether this is legal to carry out.


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## caped crusader (Oct 28, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I read online, it's confusing, I want to see if anyone know whether this is legal to carry out.
> 
> View attachment 27485


Who cares...lol
If it saves your life one day


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## Flying Crane (Oct 28, 2021)

I believe it is not.  But you can find all kinds of things in Chinatown that are illegal in California.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I read online, it's confusing, I want to see if anyone know whether this is legal to carry out.
> 
> View attachment 27485


Collapsible batons are not legal to buy, sell, or possess anywhere in California.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Who cares...lol
> If it saves your life one day


A person defending themselves in court on a possession charge might care.


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## caped crusader (Oct 28, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> A person defending themselves in court on a possession charge might care.


Well if he is dead then he won't


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## wab25 (Oct 28, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Well if he is dead then he won't


You are assuming that the only reason he would be up on possession charges is if he were attacked and pulled out his weapon and defended himself. Its more likely that the cop will see the baton in the car in a normal traffic stop, or in some other non self-defense situation. Then instead of moving along, he is up on possession charges and never even got to fight for his life with his illegal weapon.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 28, 2021)

Thanks guys, I am just curious. I am 69, I carry a cane, a fiber filled nylon cane that is very strong and is 20oz. I can take it on a plane and go anywhere. The subject just came up with a friend of mine.


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## Urban Trekker (Oct 28, 2021)

You can always look for items that are designed to skirt the law.  For example, brass knuckles are illegal here in Virginia.  The statute includes any and all "metal knuckles."  However, you can find knucks that are made of non-metal materials that are just as hard as metal, and they skirt the law here.

I'm sure you can find something similar to that baton that's legal in California by technicality.


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## caped crusader (Oct 28, 2021)

wab25 said:


> You are assuming that the only reason he would be up on possession charges is if he were attacked and pulled out his weapon and defended himself. Its more likely that the cop will see the baton in the car in a normal traffic stop, or in some other non self-defense situation. Then instead of moving along, he is up on possession charges and never even got to fight for his life with his illegal weapon.


A lot of ifs & buts
 I'm assuming he wants to defend himself against a knife or more than one attacker.
Life is too short and can go quickly...I would worry about the ifs & buts later.


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## caped crusader (Oct 28, 2021)

wab25 said:


> never even got to fight for his life with his illegal weapon.


Well that's good. He's alive and well.


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## caped crusader (Oct 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> You can always look for items that are designed to skirt the law.  For example, brass knuckles are illegal here in Virginia.  The statute includes any and all "metal knuckles."  However, you can find knucks that are made of non-metal materials that are just as hard as metal, and they skirt the law here.
> 
> I'm sure you can find something similar to that baton that's legal in California by technicality.


Yeah good thinking.  Saw a guy on YouTube selling wooden weapons for escrima. 
Probably why he does it. Does a self defense channel but his background is escrima


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Well that's good. He's alive and well.


Not to mention a convict, unemployed, and homeless.


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## caped crusader (Oct 28, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not to mention a convict, unemployed, and homeless.


Oh come on he's over 70 I think.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 28, 2021)

As a reminder, MartialTalk does not condone anyone taking illegal actions/engaging in illegal activities, or encouraging illegal activities, which includes (but is far from limited to) unlawful possession of a weapon in any capacity.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Oh come on he's over 70 I think.


Age is irrelevant. What you're suggesting be done is a crime. Once convicted, employment becomes problematic. You are required to reveal the conviction on job applications. Many employers will not hire convicts. Many professional licenses are automatically revoked. Which leads to such fun things as divorce and homelessness.


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## caped crusader (Oct 28, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Age is irrelevant. What you're suggesting be done is a crime. Once convicted, employment becomes problematic. You are required to reveal the conviction on job applications. Many employers will not hire convicts. Many professional licenses are automatically revoked. Which leads to such fun things as divorce and homelessness.


Not suggesting anything just telling him what I would do at his age. If he carries one or not is his prerogative.
What employment do you think he has at his age?
Off topic but why do the police and authorities in say Philly allow publicly open illegal activities like drug use and probably worse?


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## john_newman (Oct 28, 2021)

Read True and Authentic Blogss/Articles About Martial Arts. You wouldn't need to use that!!


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## caped crusader (Oct 28, 2021)

john_newman said:


> Read True and Authentic Blogss/Articles About Martial Arts. You wouldn't need to use that!!


Yeah ...no Touch chi


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## wab25 (Oct 28, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> A lot of ifs & buts
> I'm assuming he wants to defend himself against a knife or more than one attacker.
> Life is too short and can go quickly...I would worry about the ifs & buts later.


If the probability of him running into knife wielding attackers is higher than the probability of him running into a law enforcement officer for any reason at all... then the best course of action would be to move somewhere else. Fortunately, that does not describe many areas in the US. 

Given that he is more likely to come across law enforcement with his illegal weapon, than to face knife wielding assailants... it is more probable that an officer will at some point notice the illegal weapon. His car could break down on the side of the road, and if the officer notices the illegal baton next to the console in his car when he stops to help out... thats possession of an illegal weapon.

I would be curious about how long the OP has lived where he currently does and how many times he has seen people assaulted with knives during that time. Also, how many times has he seen law enforcement in that same time period.

In my opinion, its an awful lot of risk to carry an illegal weapon, when there is very little chance that you would actually need to use it. Especially when there are plenty of legal options to choose from. The risk far out weighs the reward. Just carry something legal.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 28, 2021)

wab25 said:


> If the probability of him running into knife wielding attackers is higher than the probability of him running into a law enforcement officer for any reason at all... then the best course of action would be to move somewhere else. Fortunately, that does not describe many areas in the US.
> 
> Given that he is more likely to come across law enforcement with his illegal weapon, than to face knife wielding assailants... it is more probable that an officer will at some point notice the illegal weapon. His car could break down on the side of the road, and if the officer notices the illegal baton next to the console in his car when he stops to help out... thats possession of an illegal weapon.
> 
> ...


Like get a concealed carry permit and legally carry a pistol.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Like get a concealed carry permit and legally carry a pistol.


That sounds like a reasonable approach. Until you look into the laws related to concealed carry in California. The easiest way seems to be to move to another state.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 28, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> That sounds like a reasonable approach. Until you look into the laws related to concealed carry in California. The easiest way seems to be to move to another state.


I have one. I also live in rural Northern California. It is far easier to get in shall issue counties.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I have one. I also live in rural Northern California. It is far easier to get in shall issue counties.


Sure, but my understanding is that those counties are a minority. And "Shall Issue" is a policy adopted by the agency issuing the permit in that county, and thus is subject to change at any minute. Not to mention the extra aggravation renewing a permit every year (ours are good for 5 years, and "Shall Issue" is mandated by state law).


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## dvcochran (Oct 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> You can always look for items that are designed to skirt the law.  For example, brass knuckles are illegal here in Virginia.  The statute includes any and all "metal knuckles."  However, you can find knucks that are made of non-metal materials that are just as hard as metal, and they skirt the law here.
> 
> I'm sure you can find something similar to that baton that's legal in California by technicality.


That is terrible advise. The 'technicality' will be adamantly argued by both sides. If a law exist stating the baton is illegal to carry, I suspect you would have just screwed yourself. 
Wrong tool for the job given the circumstances. Keep the right tools in your toolbox.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 28, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Oh come on he's over 70 I think.


Ha ha, don't make me older than I am!!! I am going to be 69 next April only!!!

It's only a discussion with my friend. I carry a cane and I practice cane fight. I don't need the expandable baton. I pick my cane any time of the day than the baton.

Look at my canes:





Does it look very innocent? No metal at all.

they are modified from this by cutting the sharp hook
UnitedCutlery.Com: Night Watchman Premium Adjustable Walking Cane - UC3129





It is made of fiber filled Nylon, very tough, 20oz after cutting to the right length. I do 2 hands swing like Katana. I don't need those batons. Just talking with a friend and he think it's legal. I don't think so. Where as the cane is legal everywhere, even on the plane and travel around the world.

To be honest, I never seen any knife wheeling thugs, I live in a safe area. The thing that got me started was because older Asians are being attacked lately.


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## jks9199 (Oct 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> You can always look for items that are designed to skirt the law.  For example, brass knuckles are illegal here in Virginia.  The statute includes any and all "metal knuckles."  However, you can find knucks that are made of non-metal materials that are just as hard as metal, and they skirt the law here.


No, they don't.  I would strongly discourage trying that argument, because the laundry list of prohibited weapons in 18.2-308 ends with any "weapon of like kind..." and the courts most recently have looked to the intended use and design to settle the question of weather an item is of "like kind." Anything functionally similar enough to brass knuckles, to include weighted gloves, would likely be found in court to be of "like kind."


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> You can always look for items that are designed to skirt the law.  For example, brass knuckles are illegal here in Virginia.  The statute includes any and all "metal knuckles."  However, you can find knucks that are made of non-metal materials that are just as hard as metal, and they skirt the law here.
> 
> I'm sure you can find something similar to that baton that's legal in California by technicality.


Good luck with that in court. Virginia is a "Shall Issue" state, so you'd be better off to just get a permit. Then you can carry brass knuckles, in addition to your gun.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 28, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> No, they don't.  I would strongly discourage trying that argument, because the laundry list of prohibited weapons in 18.2-308 ends with any "weapon of like kind..." and the courts most recently have looked to the intended use and design to settle the question of weather an item is of "like kind." Anything functionally similar enough to brass knuckles, to include weighted gloves, would likely be found in court to be of "like kind."


AND you usually defend and argue the legality AFTER you are arrested and in the count. Even if you come out ahead, it's already going through a lot of trouble.


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## dvcochran (Oct 28, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> No, they don't.  I would strongly discourage trying that argument, because the laundry list of prohibited weapons in 18.2-308 ends with any "weapon of like kind..." and the courts most recently have looked to the intended use and design to settle the question of weather an item is of "like kind." Anything functionally similar enough to brass knuckles, to include weighted gloves, would likely be found in court to be of "like kind."


I do not know Virginia law specifically but in the heavy contract based work I do, being married to a lawyer, and being a former LEO, I have been in and around enough legal statute to understand they are always laced with multiple 'outs' and various interpretation. It can work against you as quickly as for you sometimes. 

The brass knuckle post is a perfect example of a person thinking they have an out where one simply does not exist.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 28, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure, but my understanding is that those counties are a minority. And "Shall Issue" is a policy adopted by the agency issuing the permit in that county, and thus is subject to change at any minute. Not to mention the extra aggravation renewing a permit every year (ours are good for 5 years, and "Shall Issue" is mandated by state law).


I agree, every other year we have to renew. It is a slight pain but at least our sheriffs office is and has been pro carry. We have a large rural county with limited cell reception and response times of 1 hour are quite average for folks who don’t live in town. It’s almost a must have.


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## jks9199 (Oct 28, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Good luck with that in court. Virginia is a "Shall Issue" state, so you'd be better off to just get a permit. Then you can carry brass knuckles, in addition to your gun.


Probably not; the affirmative defense applies specifically to the clause regarding handguns.  And 18.2-308.1 specifies "handgun."  Nor is it listed as an exemption.


Alan0354 said:


> AND you usually defend and argue the legality AFTER you are arrested and in the count. Even if you come out ahead, it's already going through a lot of trouble.


And you could still "win" the aggravated assault acquital, but be found of carrying a concealed weapon...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 28, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Probably not; the affirmative defense applies specifically to the clause regarding handguns.  And 18.2-308.1 specifies "handgun."  Nor is it listed as an exemption.
> 
> And you could still "win" the aggravated assault acquital, but be found of carrying a concealed weapon...


Good point. I can carry my pistol with ccw but not even plastic knuckles are Ok to possess in California. I also must place my switchblade in the trunk of my car to transport it because while simple possession of a switchblade is legal, carrying it even in the passenger compartment is a wobbler felony.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Probably not; the affirmative defense applies specifically to the clause regarding handguns.  And 18.2-308.1 specifies "handgun."  Nor is it listed as an exemption.


Not a lawyer, but the little bit of google I did, it specifies having a concealed carry permit as an exception. Which makes sense (I know, laws don't have to make sense) because if I can carry a gun, who cares if I also carry knuckles?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Collapsible batons are not legal to buy, sell, or possess anywhere in California.


Somethings just don't make sense. When I look at the firearms that are legal and I see a collapsible baton that's illegal then I can't help to wonder about the logic of it all.  I think the people who make the laws don't understand the difficulty in beating up someone with these items.   States should really review some of there old and outdated laws.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Somethings just don't make sense. When I look at the firearms that are legal and I see a collapsible baton that's illegal then I can't help to wonder about the logic of it all.  I think the people who make the laws don't understand the difficulty in beating up someone with these items.   States should really review some of there old and outdated laws.


Politics. Who said it make sense. You don't get into half the trouble caught with a conceal gun.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Somethings just don't make sense. When I look at the firearms that are legal and I see a collapsible baton that's illegal then I can't help to wonder about the logic of it all.  I think the people who make the laws don't understand the difficulty in beating up someone with these items.   States should really review some of there old and outdated laws.


I just point out what the law says.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2021)

I've said during similar discussions before and I'll repeat it once again. If you depend upon the legal advice of strangers on the internet to tell you what weapons you can carry, ask them if they will also pay your legal fees and potentially fines, and if they'll serve your jail time for you. You want legal advice, pay an attorney. 

Arguments of the "I'll take my chance in court" sort don't typically end well.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Somethings just don't make sense. When I look at the firearms that are legal and I see a collapsible baton that's illegal then I can't help to wonder about the logic of it all.  I think the people who make the laws don't understand the difficulty in beating up someone with these items.   States should really review some of there old and outdated laws.


Who lied and told you that the law is supposed to make sense?
In Colorado, you cannot buy a magazine with a capacity above 15 rounds unless you're a LEO.
But any such magazines that you owned before they were banned are fine.
Why?
According to the people who wrote the law, it's because you'll shoot the rounds in those magazines. Because nobody could possible reload a magazine.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2021)

Are you guys saying this is illegal?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Who lied and told you that the law is supposed to make sense?
> In Colorado, you cannot buy a magazine with a capacity above 15 rounds unless you're a LEO.
> But any such magazines that you owned before they were banned are fine.
> Why?
> According to the people who wrote the law, it's because you'll shoot the rounds in those magazines. Because nobody could possible reload a magazine.


No one lied to me.  I just think they should be revisited, reviewed, and removed as needed. Like this one.

"The State of Georgia has a law making it a misdemeanor to be on a public way or public property while wearing a mask or hood concealing all or part of your face (not counting Halloween of course)" I remember when this one came out. Stupid stuff like this is made only for the purpose of harassing citizens.


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## caped crusader (Oct 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> No one lied to me.  I just think they should be revisited, reviewed, and removed as needed. Like this one.
> 
> "The State of Georgia has a law making it a misdemeanor to be on a public way or public property while wearing a mask or hood concealing all or part of your face (not counting Halloween of course)" I remember when this one came out. Stupid stuff like this is made only for the purpose of harassing citizens.


Like I posted they in philly and other place allow young people to openly kill themselves on the streets . Inject openly and I have seen Videos where the police stand by and just observe them.
With drugs comes all the other crime. I do not claim to know about Laws in your states but it seems absurd at times.
But hey worry about a baton...Double morals


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## caped crusader (Oct 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The State of Georgia has a law making it a misdemeanor to be on a public way or public property while wearing a mask or hood concealing all or part of your face (not counting Halloween of course)" I remember when this one came out. Stupid stuff like this is made only for the purpose of harassing citizens.


So how do they treat muslims?
I'm willing to bet muslim women can walk around wearing their Burka face covered or partially covered.
I can but I'm Batman!


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## Alan0354 (Oct 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> No one lied to me.  I just think they should be revisited, reviewed, and removed as needed. Like this one.
> 
> "The State of Georgia has a law making it a misdemeanor to be on a public way or public property while wearing a mask or hood concealing all or part of your face (not counting Halloween of course)" I remember when this one came out. Stupid stuff like this is made only for the purpose of harassing citizens.


How about people wearing surgical mask for Covid? You get arrested if you wear it, then you get arrested if you don't!!! How do you like that?!!!


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## caped crusader (Oct 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> How about people wearing surgical mask for Covid? You get arrested if you wear it, then you get arrested if you don't!!! How do you like that?!!!


Crazy times we live in ...


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## Urban Trekker (Oct 29, 2021)

As to "weapons of like kind," I didn't catch that earlier, but I've gotten off on things that I was clearly in violation of because because of very good attorneys, and with "weapons of like kind" being such an ambiguous phrase, I'm not worried.

As to the laws not making sense (i.e., you can have a gun but not a switchblade, etc), it all comes down two things that occured at the time these things were outlawed:

1.  Targeting certain demographics
2.  Moral panic

In the case of the former, cannabis was outlawed because it was mostly used by minorities and white counterculture groups (beatniks, etc).

Eastern martial arts/ninja weapons were outlawed because of the moral panic caused by the movies they were featured in.

Brass knuckles, switchblades, etc were a combination of both: greasers were the demographic being targeted.  And those "bad boy" movies with James Dean, Marlon Brando, etc contributed to that.

Of course, guns, are carried by "good hardworking 'muricans," so they weren't being targeted.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> How about people wearing surgical mask for Covid? You get arrested if you wear it, then you get arrested if you don't!!! How do you like that?!!!


I’m not aware of people being arrested for not wearing a Covid mask.  Seems ive seen lots of people refuse to wear them in spite of mandates and signs in stores saying they are required.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Who lied and told you that the law is supposed to make sense?
> In Colorado, you cannot buy a magazine with a capacity above 15 rounds unless you're a LEO.
> But any such magazines that you owned before they were banned are fine.
> Why?



I imagine because many things that already exist are allowed to be grandfathered in when a new, more restrictive law is passed.  That is common practice.  I would guess there is a calculation made that confiscating all of those existing magazines would be nearly impossible to accomplish, so it isn’t pursued.  It does raise the question though: if someone is found with such a magazine, how is it determined if it was grandfathered, or is new?  


> According to the people who wrote the law, it's because you'll shoot the rounds in those magazines. Because nobody could possible reload a magazine.


I’m not understanding what you are saying here?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m not aware of people being arrested for not wearing a Covid mask.  Seems ive seen lots of people refuse to wear them in spite of mandates and signs in stores saying they are required.


What I recall seeing was people being arrested for trespassing, when they refused to either put on a mask or leave a store, then making a huge fuss/public disorder/disorderly conduct when asked to leave. I can't think of any situations where people were arrested for wearing a mask though.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I imagine because many things that already exist are allowed to be grandfathered in when a new, more restrictive law is passed.  That is common practice.  I would guess there is a calculation made that confiscating all of those existing magazines would be nearly impossible to accomplish, so it isn’t pursued.  It does raise the question though: if someone is found with such a magazine, how is it determined if it was grandfathered, or is new?


There is no way. It's not like there are date stamps on them.


Flying Crane said:


> I’m not understanding what you are saying here?


I'm saying that the people who wrote the law clearly have zero knowledge or understanding on the subject of guns. They wrote the law honestly believing that if I go to the range, plug a 17 round magazine into my Glock 17 and empty it, it's gone. They don't understand that magazines are reusable. And because lawmakers make laws without an actual knowledge of the subject, the laws are quite often stupid.


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## dvcochran (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no way. It's not like there are date stamps on them.
> 
> I'm saying that the people who wrote the law clearly have zero knowledge or understanding on the subject of guns. They wrote the law honestly believing that if I go to the range, plug a 17 round magazine into my Glock 17 and empty it, it's gone. They don't understand that magazines are reusable. And because lawmakers make laws without an actual knowledge of the subject, the laws are quite often stupid.


Or there were enough conservatives involved in the creation of the law to include such a 'workaround'. 
I would say it is rare but it also works both ways in this fashion as well.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What I recall seeing was people being arrested for trespassing, when they refused to either put on a mask or leave a store, then making a huge fuss/public disorder/disorderly conduct when asked to leave. I can't think of any situations where people were arrested for wearing a mask though.


A-yup.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no way. It's not like there are date stamps on them.



Exactly



> I'm saying that the people who wrote the law clearly have zero knowledge or understanding on the subject of guns. They wrote the law honestly believing that if I go to the range, plug a 17 round magazine into my Glock 17 and empty it, it's gone. They don't understand that magazines are reusable. And because lawmakers make laws without an actual knowledge of the subject, the laws are quite often stupid.


I do not believe that is true.  The logic behind it is that it puts a specific limit on the number of rounds a person can fire before they are interrupted by the need to reload.  In the case of a mass shooting, that interruption can give people an opportunity to escape.  The need to carry additional magazines to pack the same firepower also means that perhaps they will end up carrying less ammunition.  Thus, also possibly saving some lives. 

Whether or not the number 15 (10 in California) makes sense or is something you agree or disagree with is a separate discussion.

To say that lawmakers do not understand that magazines can be reloaded and reused is a real stretch.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 29, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What I recall seeing was people being arrested for trespassing, when they refused to either put on a mask or leave a store, then making a huge fuss/public disorder/disorderly conduct when asked to leave. I can't think of any situations where people were arrested for wearing a mask though.


I was half way joking, BUT they do treat kids very harsh in schools and airplanes for not wearing mask.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Exactly
> 
> 
> I do not believe that is true.  The logic behind it is that it puts a specific limit on the number of rounds a person can fire before they are interrupted by the need to reload.  In the case of a mass shooting, that interruption can give people an opportunity to escape.  The need to carry additional magazines to pack the same firepower also means that perhaps they will end up carrying less ammunition.  Thus, also possibly saving some lives.
> ...


How fast can you drop a mag, reload, and fire? Damn fast! 3 10’s is almost as fast as 1 30. Just sayin.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Or there were enough conservatives involved in the creation of the law to include such a 'workaround'.
> I would say it is rare but it also works both ways in this fashion as well.


Entirely possible. I can't speak to how much sense the law itself makes, or if there was a better option since I'm not too familiar with guns. But, having an "anti-gun" law provides good pr/results for the anti-gun individuals, while there's a loophole that most of them won't realizing, making it annoying but not nearly as bad for the people that want to have 15+round mags. 

For instance, if I went around and asked people in non-upstate-NY (where 90% of people I know don't have any sort of gun license/permit), they would mostly assume this means that within a year or two you wouldn't see 15+ round mags. And be very happy with that sort of law, regardless of how effective it actually is.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm saying that the people who wrote the law clearly have zero knowledge or understanding on the subject of guns. They wrote the law honestly believing that if I go to the range, plug a 17 round magazine into my Glock 17 and empty it, it's gone. They don't understand that magazines are reusable. And because lawmakers make laws without an actual knowledge of the subject, the laws are quite often stupid.


They just want to find any excuse to ban high capacity guns. I should have bought a Glock 19 long time ago, that's the one I want. I was not into guns for close to 30 years. It's only because of all the talk about banning 9mm, I went out and bought the Glock 26.

Damn, I still have not fire the 26 yet. Ammo is hard to get. They only sold me 2 boxes of 25 when I bought the 26!!! I still been on and off going to the Firing Line forum, someone PM me there are more ammo in KC, what good does that do for me?!!! I have my good Federal JHP from long time ago that I kept dry and no extreme temperature for my old guns, I am NOT going to use those to test out the new 26. So it's just a "plastic" toy gun for now!!!

Reloading is one thing I never get into. It's too boring, AND you cannot watch tv and do it because you do need to concentrate on it to make sure you don't make mistake. It can be deadly serious. So I just never got into it. Besides, you can't buy primer either right now. So I can't even reload even if I want to.

Do you reload? the amount you shoot, you can go broke buying bullets!!! That's the reason I changed to 22LR at the time. I bought 14 boxes of Winchester Wildcat at a time ( each has 10 bricks, each brick has 10 small boxes of 50 rounds) at 99cents per 50rounds!!! I am born cheap!!! The salesman thought I was crazy!!! I was too cheap to buy the match/competition type of standard velocity bullets. 99cents for 50, you cannot beat that.

I am really thinking whether I should buy another one. I am looking at Sig, the one with polymer frame, double action first shot. I still feel the most comfortable with double action first shot. I bought the 26 because when I quit shooting, Glock barely came on the scene, I always want a Glock, I am a true believer of polymer guns. So when I decided to buy one, I didn't even think twice and bought the Glock 26. It's 10 rounds, but at least it's smaller than 19.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> How fast can you drop a mag, reload, and fire? Damn fast! 3 10’s is almost as fast as 1 30. Just sayin.



Not everyone has practiced swapping magazines quickly. 
Whether or not you agree with the logic is a different discussion.  But any interruption in firing during a mass shooting gives opportunity for someone to not be shot.  It’s a little difficult to dispute that in good faith.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Or there were enough conservatives involved in the creation of the law to include such a 'workaround'.
> I would say it is rare but it also works both ways in this fashion as well.





Flying Crane said:


> Exactly
> 
> 
> I do not believe that is true.


Doesn't really matter what you believe. The lawmaker SAID that the logic was the mags would be used up.
Here's the quote from US Representative Diana DeGette:


> “What’s the efficacy of banning these magazine clips? I will tell you these are ammunition, they’re bullets, so the people who have those know they’re going to shoot them, so if you ban them in the future, the number of these ‘high capacity’ magazines is going to decrease dramatically over time because the bullets will have been shot and there won’t be any more available.”





Flying Crane said:


> The logic behind it is that it puts a specific limit on the number of rounds a person can fire before they are interrupted by the need to reload.  In the case of a mass shooting, that interruption can give people an opportunity to escape.  The need to carry additional magazines to pack the same firepower also means that perhaps they will end up carrying less ammunition.  Thus, also possibly saving some lives.


Except it doesn't.








Flying Crane said:


> To say that lawmakers do not understand that magazines can be reloaded and reused is a real stretch.


But that is what the lawmaker said.


Flying Crane said:


> Whether or not you agree with the logic is a different discussion.  But any interruption in firing during a mass shooting gives opportunity for someone to not be shot.  It’s a little difficult to dispute that in good faith.


No, it's not. Because it doesn't work.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Not everyone has practiced swapping magazines quickly.
> Whether or not you agree with the logic is a different discussion.  But any interruption in firing during a mass shooting gives opportunity for someone to not be shot.  It’s a little difficult to dispute that in good faith.


It really doesn’t take much practice. And whether it’s ten or thirty I don’t feel safer because of that law. It didn’t do anything to dissuade bad people from doing bad things. I’m all for something that makes sense, but I think that the emphasis on capacity or defining firearms parts as the problem is misguided.  The firearm is inert, regardless of parts or capacity, same as a machete or slingshot, or hellfire missile for that matter. I’m not advocating having missiles or machine guns, but we as humans have a problem that is causing us to kill one another. The AR 15 and AK 47 for example are not new, but our children mass shooting our children is, relatively speaking, a newer issue.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not a lawyer, but the little bit of google I did, it specifies having a concealed carry permit as an exception. Which makes sense (I know, laws don't have to make sense) because if I can carry a gun, who cares if I also carry knuckles?


It doesn't have to be logical...  but unless the sources are judges, magistrates, prosecutors or cops in Virginia -- I wouldn't rely on their say so in the face of the black letter in the code that specifically exempts handguns, but not other weapons.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> It doesn't have to be logical...


I'll be the first to agree with that.


jks9199 said:


> but unless the sources are judges, magistrates, prosecutors or cops in Virginia -- I wouldn't rely on their say so in the face of the black letter in the code that specifically exempts handguns, but not other weapons.


I've never talked to a VI cop. But CO has (or had) much the same issue. Automatic knives were listed as prohibited weapons, with exceptions granted for Police, EMS and people "with a permit". The only permit CO issues is specifically a concealed handgun permit (not a concealed weapon permit). So I asked a fair number of cops. The consensus was that if I had a permit to carry a gun, nobody is going to care what kind of knife I carry. 
Happily, CO did the obvious and sensible thing and removed automatic knives from the list.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'll be the first to agree with that.
> 
> I've never talked to a VI cop. But CO has (or had) much the same issue. Automatic knives were listed as prohibited weapons, with exceptions granted for Police, EMS and people "with a permit". The only permit CO issues is specifically a concealed handgun permit (not a concealed weapon permit). So I asked a fair number of cops. The consensus was that if I had a permit to carry a gun, nobody is going to care what kind of knife I carry.
> Happily, CO did the obvious and sensible thing and removed automatic knives from the list.


The reality is that, unless you're doing major stupidity, if you're issued a CCW, cops are likely not going to care about most of the other stuff -- but the code in Virginia makes having a permit an affirmative defense to the charge, and does specifically address handguns, not any other weapon.  Of course, we also had a ruling about 15 years or so ago that moved the issue for analysis to whether or not the item is a *weapon* not the intent for which it was carried.  I


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Doesn't really matter what you believe. The lawmaker SAID that the logic was the mags would be used up.
> Here's the quote from US Representative Diana DeGette:
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, so that lawmaker said something incoherent.  It isn’t difficult to find stupid or senseless statements from lawmakers.  But it takes more than one lawmaker to pass a law.  I understand you don’t like the law.  So you are simply distilling it down to “the lawmakers are stupid”.  But a whole lot of them voted for it and I would bet the others have a better grasp of the concept, or at least can articulate better than she did. 

Now the video you posted is unconvincing.  You’ve got Jim and  Christy comparing how quickly they can fire off rounds in different size magazines.  But they are set up at a range, with the magazines all lined up and ready for them, not in a chaotic mass-shooting event.  This simulation in no way re-creates what an event would be like.  I find it doubtful that their performance at the range would be comparable to such an event, if they were the perpetrator.  Very likely their reloading would be slower. 

The opening to the video also posted statistics for how many shots typically miss the target in both police shooting in incidents, and home defense occurrences.  That further convinces me that people spraying shots like that become a danger to their neighbors.  It’s an argument to further limit magazine capacity. 

Regarding having multiple guns to discard along the way, (the revolvers) that becomes expensive, which could limit the ability of a perpetrator to follow that tactic. 

So overall I am unimpressed by the contents of this video. 


> No, it's not. Because it doesn't work.


Now this statement is simply silly.  Are you really telling me that when a perpetrator pauses to swap magazines, that he is still actually shooting people during that pause?  

So how about this:  if you believe you can fire off five 6-round magazines just as quickly as two 15- round magazines, then you should have no complaints if the laws limited magazine capacity to six rounds.  Because to you, it is irrelevant. 

I know that you and I will never agree on this.  My opinion: this nation is long overdue for some meaningful and common-sense gun control laws.  And no, I am not anti-gun.  But I am anti-stupid gun ownership and do believe there ought to be limits.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 29, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> So how do they treat muslims?


That's why the law was originally made.  It was made because politicians didn't approve of the cultural wear.  I don't think the majority of the citizens actually cared as it's not something that is often seen unless you go to stores that Muslims like to go to.  Lets just say there are people in Georgia who think everyone should be like them or that certain groups shouldn't be different.  Lots of Acceptance Issues here.  If they could find an argument for green vs pink shoes, they would argue about it until there was a law for green vs pink shoes.



Alan0354 said:


> How about people wearing surgical mask for Covid? You get arrested if you wear it, then you get arrested if you don't!!! How do you like that?!!!


That was actually a big fight here between the Georgia Governor and the Atlanta Mayor.  The Governor made a statement that people couldn't wear mask referencing the law and the Atlanta Mayor told the Governor to get stuffed lol.  The law is on the books and people still wear masks including during Halloween, Landscape projects, medical reasons, flu season, allergy season, cold weather, fitness gear, safety equipment and now Covid.  So all of that is ok unless the person is Muslims.  The law is still on the books as far as I know. 
2010 Georgia Code ::  TITLE 16 - CRIMES AND OFFENSES ::  CHAPTER 11 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER AND SAFETY ::  ARTICLE 2 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER ::  § 16-11-38 - Wearing mask, hood, or device which conceals identity of wearer

I deal with it because it gives me something to pester the KKK about.


Urban Trekker said:


> As to "weapons of like kind," I didn't catch that earlier, but I've gotten off on things that I was clearly in violation of because because of very good attorneys, and with "weapons of like kind" being such an ambiguous phrase, I'm not worried.
> 
> As to the laws not making sense (i.e., you can have a gun but not a switchblade, etc), it all comes down two things that occured at the time these things were outlawed:
> 
> ...


Thank goodness all of those gangsters, action hero shoot em up moves are so tame.  No way someone with a gun would do all of that. lol.

It is what is is. Things aren't fix because people aren't trying to fix them.  Laws are being made for the wrong reasons which is why a lot  of them really don't address the root of the issue, so like a weed, the nonsense pops up every year.  But at lease we are all safe from those gangs with the retractable baton and the ninjas and their throwing stars.lol.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, so that lawmaker said something incoherent.  It isn’t difficult to find stupid or senseless statements from lawmakers.  But it takes more than one lawmaker to pass a law.  I understand you don’t like the law.  So you are simply distilling it down to “the lawmakers are stupid”.  But a whole lot of them voted for it and I would bet the others have a better grasp of the concept, or at least can articulate better than she did.


She was one of the authors of the bill. The bill is idiotic. 


Flying Crane said:


> Now the video you posted is unconvincing.  You’ve got Jim and  Christy comparing how quickly they can fire off rounds in different size magazines.  But they are set up at a range, with the magazines all lined up and ready for them, not in a chaotic mass-shooting event.  This simulation in no way re-creates what an event would be like.  I find it doubtful that their performance at the range would be comparable to such an event, if they were the perpetrator.  Very likely their reloading would be slower.


Right. Because mass shooters don't practice, or prepare or anything.


Flying Crane said:


> The opening to the video also posted statistics for how many shots typically miss the target in both police shooting in incidents, and home defense occurrences.  That further convinces me that people spraying shots like that become a danger to their neighbors.  It’s an argument to further limit magazine capacity.


No it's not. Laws should serve a purpose. If they don't, they shouldn't exist.


Flying Crane said:


> Regarding having multiple guns to discard along the way, (the revolvers) that becomes expensive, which could limit the ability of a perpetrator to follow that tactic.


Cheap guns are cheap. 


Flying Crane said:


> So overall I am unimpressed by the contents of this video.
> 
> Now this statement is simply silly.  Are you really telling me that when a perpetrator pauses to swap magazines, that he is still actually shooting people during that pause?


I'm saying the pause is so brief as to be meaningless. It's no longer than the pauses to switch targets.


Flying Crane said:


> So how about this:  if you believe you can fire off five 6-round magazines just as quickly as two 15- round magazines, then you should have no complaints if the laws limited magazine capacity to six rounds.  Because to you, it is irrelevant.


It serves no useful purpose. So it's a stupid law. Stupid laws should be repealed.


Flying Crane said:


> I know that you and I will never agree on this.  My opinion: this nation is long overdue for some meaningful and common-sense gun control laws.  And no, I am not anti-gun.  But I am anti-stupid gun ownership and do believe there ought to be limits.


It's more nonsense than common-sense.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, so that lawmaker said something incoherent.  It isn’t difficult to find stupid or senseless statements from lawmakers.  But it takes more than one lawmaker to pass a law.  I understand you don’t like the law.  So you are simply distilling it down to “the lawmakers are stupid”.  But a whole lot of them voted for it and I would bet the others have a better grasp of the concept, or at least can articulate better than she did.
> 
> Now the video you posted is unconvincing.  You’ve got Jim and  Christy comparing how quickly they can fire off rounds in different size magazines.  But they are set up at a range, with the magazines all lined up and ready for them, not in a chaotic mass-shooting event.  This simulation in no way re-creates what an event would be like.  I find it doubtful that their performance at the range would be comparable to such an event, if they were the perpetrator.  Very likely their reloading would be slower.
> 
> ...


I want to respectfully ask if you shoot guns? I’m not trying for a gotcha.  I’m genuinely curious about your level of experience with firearms.  I think the discourse is valuable beyond how anyone feels about this law or that gun.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Thanks guys, I am just curious. I am 69, I carry a cane, a fiber filled nylon cane that is very strong and is 20oz. I can take it on a plane and go anywhere. The subject just came up with a friend of mine.


A cane is my go-to when I want something unquestionable. I used to need on on an occasional basis (prior to foot surgery), so I’m comfortable carrying one.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Well that's good. He's alive and well.


And alive not because of the weapon, in this case. As for “well”, I guess that depends how the charges end up.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Not suggesting anything just telling him what I would do at his age. If he carries one or not is his prerogative.
> What employment do you think he has at his age?
> Off topic but why do the police and authorities in say Philly allow publicly open illegal activities like drug use and probably worse?


Lots of folks over 70 still work. Not everyone manages to make enough to save for retirement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

john_newman said:


> Read True and Authentic Blogss/Articles About Martial Arts. You wouldn't need to use that!!


Er, what?


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 29, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> A cane is my go-to when I want something unquestionable. I used to need on on an occasional basis (prior to foot surgery), so I’m comfortable carrying one.


And you have a valid excuse even after you beat the thug up with the cane and police question you. You have foot problem and you need a cane. 

I just had problem with my right knee and I just got a cotazone shot, I have a valid excuse to carry a cane......not to mention I am old!!! I don't want to take any chance on the law. I hold my cane with left hand, I have a pepper spray in my right pocket, all absolutely legal.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's why the law was originally made.  It was made because politicians didn't approve of the cultural wear.  I don't think the majority of the citizens actually cared as it's not something that is often seen unless you go to stores that Muslims like to go to.  Lets just say there are people in Georgia who think everyone should be like them or that certain groups shouldn't be different.  Lots of Acceptance Issues here.  If they could find an argument for green vs pink shoes, they would argue about it until there was a law for green vs pink shoes.
> 
> 
> That was actually a big fight here between the Georgia Governor and the Atlanta Mayor.  The Governor made a statement that people couldn't wear mask referencing the law and the Atlanta Mayor told the Governor to get stuffed lol.  The law is on the books and people still wear masks including during Halloween, Landscape projects, medical reasons, flu season, allergy season, cold weather, fitness gear, safety equipment and now Covid.  So all of that is ok unless the person is Muslims.  The law is still on the books as far as I know.
> ...


I am certain every state has some form of mask law. That is a common sense law.


----------



## dvcochran (Oct 29, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Not suggesting anything just telling him what I would do at his age. If he carries one or not is his prerogative.
> What employment do you think he has at his age?
> Off topic but why do the police and authorities in say Philly allow publicly open illegal activities like drug use and probably worse?


My 75 year father in law still goes to the woods nearly every day to fell trees and cut firewood. He may not be as fast as he once was but he sure is consistent. Will out work most people I know.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Doesn't really matter what you believe. The lawmaker SAID that the logic was the mags would be used up.
> Here's the quote from US Representative Diana DeGette:
> 
> 
> ...


Most gun owners I know have literally never practiced quick mag swaps. At the range, it’s painfully obvious.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 29, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Most gun owners I know have literally never practiced quick mag swaps. At the range, it’s painfully obvious.


Ha ha, of cause, that involve dropping the empty mag....to the ground!!!! I ain't going to drop my empty mag on the ground, it doesn't take much to bend the lip out of shape and cause malfunction in the future. I cannot afford that at all. Worst is you don't even know whether you bend it or not until the gun jams. It is not that obvious, just an unnoticeable bend might be enough to cause problem.

No dropping mags......Period for me.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I want to respectfully ask if you shoot guns? I’m not trying for a gotcha.  I’m genuinely curious about your level of experience with firearms.  I think the discourse is valuable beyond how anyone feels about this law or that gun.


I grew up in a hunting family and hunted ducks and geese with my dad, and trap shooting for practice.  Used a 12 gauge pump-action Remington 870. As a teenager I had a 10/22 Ruger rifle and a .50 muzzleloader Thompson-Center.  Enjoyed target shooting on a fairly regular basis and the occasional squirrel hunt with my uncle.  Also had fun target shooting with my dad’s bolt-action .22, his bolt-action .30-06 (Enfield, WW II era) his revolver and his automatic pistol (both .22 Ruger).  Had a chance to shoot a friend’s 9mm and .44 magnum Desert Eagle once or twice.  Lost interest in hunting as a teenager, but still enjoyed target shooting.  Gave my rifles to my dad when I moved to California.  A few years ago I bought a .308 Ruger gunsite scout rifle because I thought I might reconnect to some target shooting.  Held onto it for about four or five years, and finally sold it because life is busy and I found that I simply never shot it, not once, not even to sight it in.  Had no interest. 

So yeah, I’ve shot a couple times.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> She was one of the authors of the bill. The bill is idiotic.
> 
> Right. Because mass shooters don't practice, or prepare or anything.
> 
> ...


Sorry, not convinced.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Ha ha, of cause, that involve dropping the empty mag....to the ground!!!! I ain't going to drop my empty mag on the ground, it doesn't take much to bend the lip out of shape and cause malfunction in the future. I cannot afford that at all. Worst is you don't even know whether you bend it or not until the gun jams. It is not that obvious, just an unnoticeable bend might be enough to cause problem.
> 
> No dropping mags......Period for me.


You could practice a reload-and-retain (useful for tactical reload, for what it’s worth). Most don’t. I see folks having to look down to locate the mag (in their belt pouch) and to load it in the gun, followed by a slow chambering. All sensible on the range, but no preparation for a fast reload.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, so that lawmaker said something incoherent.  It isn’t difficult to find stupid or senseless statements from lawmakers.  But it takes more than one lawmaker to pass a law.  I understand you don’t like the law.  So you are simply distilling it down to “the lawmakers are stupid”.  But a whole lot of them voted for it and I would bet the others have a better grasp of the concept, or at least can articulate better than she did.
> 
> Now the video you posted is unconvincing.  You’ve got Jim and  Christy comparing how quickly they can fire off rounds in different size magazines.  But they are set up at a range, with the magazines all lined up and ready for them, not in a chaotic mass-shooting event.  This simulation in no way re-creates what an event would be like.  I find it doubtful that their performance at the range would be comparable to such an event, if they were the perpetrator.  Very likely their reloading would be slower.
> 
> ...





Flying Crane said:


> I grew up in a hunting family and hunted ducks and geese with my dad, and trap shooting for practice.  Used a 12 gauge pump-action Remington 870. As a teenager I had a 10/22 Ruger rifle and a .50 muzzleloader Thompson-Center.  Enjoyed target shooting on a fairly regular basis and the occasional squirrel hunt with my uncle.  Also had fun target shooting with my dad’s bolt-action .22, his bolt-action .30-06 (Enfield, WW II era) his revolver and his automatic pistol (both .22 Ruger).  Had a chance to shoot a friend’s 9mm and .44 magnum Desert Eagle once or twice.  Lost interest in hunting as a teenager, but still enjoyed target shooting.  Gave my rifles to my dad when I moved to California.  A few years ago I bought a .308 Ruger gunsite scout rifle because I thought I might reconnect to some target shooting.  Held onto it for about four or five years, and finally sold it because life is busy and I found that I simply never shot it, not once, not even to sight it in.  Had no interest.
> 
> So yeah, I’ve shot a couple times.


Thanks, that answers my question. I just always wonder where people are coming from experience wise. It’s productive to talk about this subject from common ground rather than dig in to our respective point of view. We can all agree there is a problem that needs to be addressed with shootings in this country.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 29, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I am certain every state has some form of mask law. That is a common sense law.


It's not common sense.  When most crimes are done on private property and not public property.   The Georgia Mask law only applies to Public Property.  Outside of school, Library, Post office or some other government building.   Most people will go many weeks without setting foot on public property outside of the streets they drive on and walk on.

In terms of crime, those who are wearing masks are probably those who are trying to avoid cameras.  I don't know what the stats are, but criminals probably wear masks more now because it no longer makes them stand out, which gives them the element of surprise.  Precovid, someone wearing a mask would be the most watched person walking into a store or anywhere.  But  now you probably walk by someone with a mask and it doesn't even make you take a second look






How deep does the rabbit hole go? I would assume that he's not the only one.





Just saying, stuff like this could be bigger than what we really know while the stupid law in Georgia is worried about Sharia Law and Women's clothing.





When a new law comes into effect are they really addressing a problem that exists or are they addressing a culture that they don't like.  Take note of what is going on in society at the time and before the law was implemented. Is the law addressing a real problems or a hyped up one?
Just some questions to ask one's self.

We revisit laws all the time.  Max speed limit in Georgia used to be 50-55 mph.  I put the range because I think it was 50mph during the 70's I don't remember seeing 55mph until about the 5th or 6th grade.  Now the max speed limit here is 70 mph.  So it's not strange to revisit laws and change them.  We have a long history of doing just that on important laws.  But for some reason the stupid ones seem to be sacred lol.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 29, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> So how do they treat muslims?
> I'm willing to bet muslim women can walk around wearing their Burka face covered or partially covered.
> I can but I'm Batman!


Read the law.  Most such laws have exemptions for religious practice, medical needs, workplace safety, and other similar purposes, and often pair the wearing of the mask with the intent to either intimidate or conceal one's identity.  (Hint; the mask law in Virginia is in the same part of the code that includees terrorist acts... and was inspired by the Klan's activities.)


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not common sense.  When most crimes are done on private property and not public property.   The Georgia Mask law only applies to Public Property.  Outside of school, Library, Post office or some other government building.   Most people will go many weeks without setting foot on public property outside of the streets they drive on and walk on.
> 
> In terms of crime, those who are wearing masks are probably those who are trying to avoid cameras.  I don't know what the stats are, but criminals probably wear masks more now because it no longer makes them stand out, which gives them the element of surprise.  Precovid, someone wearing a mask would be the most watched person walking into a store or anywhere.  But  now you probably walk by someone with a mask and it doesn't even make you take a second look
> 
> ...


it would seem that my YouTube search for masks used in crime has also introduced me to Ghost Hunting with Drones for which I've spent the last hour watching.    Youtube and it's strange search magic.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 29, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Read the law.  Most such laws have exemptions for religious practice, medical needs, workplace safety, and other similar purposes, and often pair the wearing of the mask with the intent to either intimidate or conceal one's identity.  (Hint; the mask law in Virginia is in the same part of the code that includees terrorist acts... and was inspired by the Klan's activities.)


This is why such laws should be revisited.  Look at all the things that are done that are for the purpose of intimidating people.  That happens more with masks off than mask on.  Ton's of "Karens" in the use.  Same with terrorist acts.  We can probably pull up more cases and incidents where a mask didn't play a part and the criminal most likely doesn't have anything knowledge of a "mask law."  KKK member with mask off good?  KKK member with mask on bad?  If the focus is on the mask then someone is missing issue lol

Armed bank robber comes in with a mask, then I would say the mask is the least of the problems.  lol


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 30, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Read the law.  Most such laws have exemptions for religious practice, medical needs, workplace safety, and other similar purposes, and often pair the wearing of the mask with the intent to either intimidate or conceal one's identity.  (Hint; the mask law in Virginia is in the same part of the code that includees terrorist acts... and was inspired by the Klan's activities.)


Ok I will just wear a Burka when I Rob a store.
Am I a man or woman? Absolutely absurd.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And alive not because of the weapon, in this case. As for “well”, I guess that depends how the charges end up.


So you seem to be assuming everyone gets stopped and searched every day ..a lot of police states in the US? 
Or are we really talking about *maybe* he might get searched ?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Ok I will just wear a Burka when I Rob a store.
> Am I a man or woman? Absolutely absurd.


If they called you on it (and you aren't a muslim women), then you'd probably be in trouble for falsely claiming a religious exemption to a law. You'd probably be safe though, I can't imagine any cop taking that chance for such a dumb law.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is why such laws should be revisited.  Look at all the things that are done that are for the purpose of intimidating people.  That happens more with masks off than mask on.  Ton's of "Karens" in the use.  Same with terrorist acts.  We can probably pull up more cases and incidents where a mask didn't play a part and the criminal most likely doesn't have anything knowledge of a "mask law."  KKK member with mask off good?  KKK member with mask on bad?  If the focus is on the mask then someone is missing issue lol
> 
> Armed bank robber comes in with a mask, then I would say the mask is the least of the problems.  lol


Agree..and as one chap here Pointed out, there are exceptions..Religion,  medical...etc.
Makes the law obsolete..in my opinion


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## caped crusader (Oct 30, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If they called you on it (and you aren't a muslim women), then you'd probably be in trouble for falsely claiming a religious exemption to a law. You'd probably be safe though, I can't imagine any cop taking that chance for such a dumb law.


No because they would be called a racist. They had this where I live. Not sure but some countries like Denmark or Norway banned the wearing of the Burka with a totally concealed face. There were incidents of terrorists using the Burka for their activities knowing we are too scared to Touch them.


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## caped crusader (Oct 30, 2021)

Police will not forcibly remove veils from women: Danish justice minister
					

A widely-discussed proposal to ban public wearing of face-covering garments including the burqa and niqab is set to be voted on in Denmark’s parliament.




					www.thelocal.dk
				




Even they still have problems with it.
*France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Bulgaria and the German state of Bavaria have all imposed restrictions on wearing full-face veils in public places.*


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## Alan0354 (Oct 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> No because they would be called a racist. They had this where I live. Not sure but some countries like Denmark or Norway banned the wearing of the Burka with a totally concealed face. There were incidents of terrorists using the Burka for their activities knowing we are too scared to Touch them.


Maybe they got bombed enough and wise up!!!

Seriously, law and fairness doesn't go together lately, don't you notice by now?

let's get back to weapon. Regarding to magazines of pistols, I personally never even thought of carrying extra mag. Long time ago, I used to carry, but it's more deep concealment. I had enough trouble just carry a gun, never mind about extra mag. Mostly, revolver was still popular in my days. I personally won't carry a high capacity 9mm because it's so bulky. Even my "little" Glock 26 is way too bulky for me already. I only consider carrying that if I am going into really bad area and expect trouble.

Also, I still believe in aim and shoot, even if it is for a split second. Very quick aiming makes a day and night difference in accuracy. I don't agree with the bang bang bang bang type of blind shooting. It really doesn't impress me to shoot all in the head area of the target paper at 5 yds. When I practice, quick shooting, I lower the gun till the barrel touch the table, I then look away. Then when I am ready to shoot, I turn my head, raise the gun, split second aim and fire. Then keep repeating this. I get all the rounds onto a 8"X11" letter size target at 25 yds. Forget hitting the black center, just get it onto the paper. That I call it good enough. I don't believe in wasting bullets. You just don't go bang bang bang, then worry about carrying a few extra mags.

When we are talking about guns for deep concealment and has to be 14oz or under, revolvers is not a bad choice. Like Ruger LCR or S&W titanium alloy J frame. It's 5 rounds, BUT you can get speed loader. It's not slow to reload. they are ultra reliable ( semi auto 380 or 9mm at 17oz or below is not as reliable as those above 20oz).

that's just me and my opinion.


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## caped crusader (Oct 30, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe they got bombed enough and wise up!!!
> 
> Seriously, law and fairness doesn't go together lately, don't you notice by now?


Oh yes


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## seasoned (Oct 30, 2021)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_

*Please, return to the original topic.
seasoned
Martial Talk Senior Moderator*


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## dvcochran (Oct 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Most gun owners I know have literally never practiced quick mag swaps. At the range, it’s painfully obvious.


When it comes to firearms I am more in the hunting category so I subscribe more to the notion of accuracy over capacity. That said, I get it and have no problem with it.

It has been about 20 years since I tried to speed load so yeah, it would be ugly.
Hopefully the other guy would already be dead before the need arises though.   


JowGaWolf said:


> It's not common sense.  When most crimes are done on private property and not public property.   The Georgia Mask law only applies to Public Property.  Outside of school, Library, Post office or some other government building.   Most people will go many weeks without setting foot on public property outside of the streets they drive on and walk on.
> 
> In terms of crime, those who are wearing masks are probably those who are trying to avoid cameras.  I don't know what the stats are, but criminals probably wear masks more now because it no longer makes them stand out, which gives them the element of surprise.  Precovid, someone wearing a mask would be the most watched person walking into a store or anywhere.  But  now you probably walk by someone with a mask and it doesn't even make you take a second look
> 
> ...


***COPY***
This is a copy of @jks9199 's post. I do not think anything else needs to be said.

Read the law. Most such laws have exemptions for religious practice, medical needs, workplace safety, and other similar purposes, and often pair the wearing of the mask with the intent to either intimidate or conceal one's identity. (Hint; the mask law in Virginia is in the same part of the code that includes terrorist acts... and was inspired by the Klan's activities.)


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Most gun owners I know have literally never practiced quick mag swaps. At the range, it’s painfully obvious.


And they don't really need to. Completely un-practiced, reloads are still pretty damned quick.


Flying Crane said:


> Sorry, not convinced.


You miss-spelled "I've buried my head"... hope this helps.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

just read that big message from kings of this place.  Yes Sir.  Back on topic


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## Doc (Nov 2, 2021)

Designed Batons of all types are illegal in the Peoples Republic called the State of Kalifornia under section 12020 of the Penal Code. it includes all manner of martial arts weapons as well. Most of them are considered "wobblers" for the purpose of prosecution. That is you will be booked under a felony, but may be tried or plead to a misdemeanor unless you have a hard-*** ADA. Canes are legal to carry or everyone's grandparents would be locked up. The secret, other than items designed as batons or clubs, is how you use them. If an item is an actual baton or club, it is illegal. However, if you had a baseball bat in your car, it would be legal until such time you attacked someone with it, in which case it would be considered an assault with a deadly weapon. (245 P.C.). if you are attacked by several people, and you just happen to have a baseball bat in your car because you play softball sometimes, then you are defending yourself with what is available. I had a guy who defended himself against a couple of thugs with an old-style heavy glass Coke Bottle. No problem, however, if he attacked someone with that same Coke Bottle, it would be ADW, assault with a deadly weapon. (The bottle never broke by the way and he jacked the guys up pretty good with it). So, unless you have a "guard card" and a "baton endorsement" for carrying a baton, you are illegal.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Nov 2, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Who cares...lol
> If it saves your life one day


It is illegal in many states. No need to subject yourself to the abuse from cops. Don't carry it! But if you are a martial artist, you don't need it. What I carry is legal: a small karambit which doubles as a pocket stick. Carry a cane and tell people sometimes your knee gives out. But if you use it for self defense, they may what to talk to your doctor, so no.
Also you can many times pick something off the ground, shelve, etc wherever you are and use it as a weapon.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


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## Urban Trekker (Nov 2, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Who cares...lol
> If it saves your life one day



I'd honestly rather be dead than serve life.  Especially in Cali.  That doesn't mean I won't defend myself.  That just means I'll have to "offend myself" before I get hauled off to San Quentin.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2021)

Doc said:


> Designed Batons of all types are illegal in the Peoples Republic called the State of Kalifornia under section 12020 of the Penal Code. it includes all manner of martial arts weapons as well. Most of them are considered "wobblers" for the purpose of prosecution. That is you will be booked under a felony, but may be tried or plead to a misdemeanor unless you have a hard-*** ADA. Canes are legal to carry or everyone's grandparents would be locked up. The secret, other than items designed as batons or clubs, is how you use them. If an item is an actual baton or club, it is illegal. However, if you had a baseball bat in your car, it would be legal until such time you attacked someone with it, in which case it would be considered an assault with a deadly weapon. (245 P.C.). if you are attacked by several people, and you just happen to have a baseball bat in your car because you play softball sometimes, then you are defending yourself with what is available. I had a guy who defended himself against a couple of thugs with an old-style heavy glass Coke Bottle. No problem, however, if he attacked someone with that same Coke Bottle, it would be ADW, assault with a deadly weapon. (The bottle never broke by the way and he jacked the guys up pretty good with it). So, unless you have a "guard card" and a "baton endorsement" for carrying a baton, you are illegal.


My go to weapon to carry as a teen was a D cell battery. lots of ways to use it. Inside a fist, my sock, thrown, etc. Also not necessarily seen as a weapon, and easily disposed of.


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## caped crusader (Nov 2, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'd honestly rather be dead than serve life.  Especially in Cali.  That doesn't mean I won't defend myself.  That just means I'll have to "offend myself" before I get hauled off to San Quentin.


I liked that song from Johnny Cash..  a great singer


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## Alan0354 (Nov 2, 2021)

Doc said:


> Designed Batons of all types are illegal in the Peoples Republic called the State of Kalifornia under section 12020 of the Penal Code. it includes all manner of martial arts weapons as well. Most of them are considered "wobblers" for the purpose of prosecution. That is you will be booked under a felony, but may be tried or plead to a misdemeanor unless you have a hard-*** ADA. Canes are legal to carry or everyone's grandparents would be locked up. The secret, other than items designed as batons or clubs, is how you use them. If an item is an actual baton or club, it is illegal. However, if you had a baseball bat in your car, it would be legal until such time you attacked someone with it, in which case it would be considered an assault with a deadly weapon. (245 P.C.). if you are attacked by several people, and you just happen to have a baseball bat in your car because you play softball sometimes, then you are defending yourself with what is available. I had a guy who defended himself against a couple of thugs with an old-style heavy glass Coke Bottle. No problem, however, if he attacked someone with that same Coke Bottle, it would be ADW, assault with a deadly weapon. (The bottle never broke by the way and he jacked the guys up pretty good with it). So, unless you have a "guard card" and a "baton endorsement" for carrying a baton, you are illegal.


Also, those thugs are usually young and have record, they have nothing to lose. They likely have record, one more trip to the police is nothing. They mostly have no assets, they are judgement proofed. How about older and more established people like us that never been in the police station? Even if you clear yourself, it's a lot of trouble and money for lawyer. Then if you have assets(house and others), you might be cleaned by civil suits.

This is not like a macho thing like " blow that guy away", " whoop their a$$". It's easy to talk, but if you have to live it, it's a different story. Like when I was young, I lived in an apartment, I carried gun all the time. Then one day, I said, wait, I got a lot to lose. Also, am I going to sleep well if I kill someone. Reality kicked in, I stopped carrying gun unless I know there is trouble.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 2, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'd honestly rather be dead than serve life.  Especially in Cali.  That doesn't mean I won't defend myself.  That just means I'll have to "offend myself" before I get hauled off to San Quentin.


If it is life or death, you have no choice, even though I practice stick fight with a cane, I concentrate a lot of hitting the knee and lower part of the body. I at least try to avoid making the first hit on the head. I want to defend myself, but I don't want to kill the person if I can help it. I carry a 20oz cane, I swing with 2 hands, I can easily kill someone if I catch the guy good on the head. Also, I have my wife turn on the phone whenever we go out, make sure she know how to record video. If anything happens, she can record the whole things as evidence.

I got more to lose than the thug, and I am not sure how I live with it if I kill someone in a macho haste.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2021)

In Georgia the it's not so much that a weapon is illegal, but when it's illegal.  Things pretty much break down into 2 categories.  Weapons that don't need a license and weapons that do need a license.  I'm not a lawyer but it seems that I can use my sword in Kung Fu but if I plan to use it as a weapon then I need to have a license.  Which creates a grey area of "He says,I say" .  If I go to the park and someone says I used my sword as a weapon then I can get in legal trouble based on what someone else says.  Even if I claim that I don't use it as a weapon.   To protect myself, it would be wise for me to just register the sword as a weapon and then don't use it as one.  If someone claims that I used it as one, then I will have the license for it.

The park scenario is tricky because City Parks, County Parks, and Federal Parks have their own rules and laws.  As for my swords legally I'm safer to have a license for them than not to have one.  Either that or have a legal document from the courts stating my swords don't have to be registered after I submitted the paperwork to register them.    Not sure how it is in other places, but if the difference is basically License vs No License then make sure you have that in order.

The license pretty much "green lights" what one is allowed to use as a weapon within the definitions of the law.  If I have to hit someone with my sword then I better have my legal docs for it up-to-date.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> If it is life or death, you have no choice, even though I practice stick fight with a cane, I concentrate a lot of hitting the knee and lower part of the body. I at least try to avoid making the first hit on the head. I want to defend myself, but I don't want to kill the person if I can help it. I carry a 20oz cane, I swing with 2 hands, I can easily kill someone if I catch the guy good on the head. Also, I have my wife turn on the phone whenever we go out, make sure she know how to record video. If anything happens, she can record the whole things as evidence.
> 
> I got more to lose than the thug, and I am not sure how I live with it if I kill someone in a macho haste.


Between me dying from someone's attack and me doing something that causes them to die.  I want to live.  I'll work out those other issues after the fact.  Not much to work out if you are laying dead in the street because you "didn't want to hurt someone too badly"  

This is why emotions are bad to have.  If you are fighting for your life, then you don't need to second guess it.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Between me dying from someone's attack and me doing something that causes them to die.  I want to live.  I'll work out those other issues after the fact.  Not much to work out if you are laying dead in the street because you "didn't want to hurt someone too badly"
> 
> This is why emotions are bad to have.  If you are fighting for your life, then you don't need to second guess it.


Just want to counter some of those that talk macho, " blow them away" type. There should be consideration before the situation. Like I said, I decided to use a 20oz cane so I hope I don't get into the situation I wack the guy and he just look at me. But with the heavy cane, I practice the first strike to the knee, the second strike is then to the neck. I think hitting the knee with a 20oz cane swung by both hand is not exactly child's play. Not to mention it's harder for the thug to grab the cane when I hit low. 

I sure don't want to just carry a gun and blow people away.

BTW, you talked about license for sword to bring to the park, how about buying a blunt sword( not sharp)? Do you still need to consider it's a weapon? If not, use them in the park.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> BTW, you talked about license for sword to bring to the park, how about buying a blunt sword( not sharp)? Do you still need to consider it's a weapon? If not, use them in the park.


It doesn't matter if the sword is blunt or not.  The law doesn't define or take into consideration if the knife is short.  It only cares about the length of the blade.  It could be a flimsy weapon and it won't matter because the length of the blade is what they are looking at.  

In addition, I would have to practice it in a safe manner like far away from people who may stray into the path of my practice.  Some parks have rules against weapons in the park.  I would then follow up with both the city and county police department.  I would want them to know when I'm in the park and for how long.  In addition I would want to get written permission or a permit showing that I'm allowed to train with that one weapon in the park.  But even before then I will still want to build up a relationship with the police and the city.  Maybe let them know that I will be practicing Martial Arts in the park, so don't freak out.  If someone calls and says that there's some crazy black guy that looks dangerous.  I would want the police and city to be familiar with me and my behavior.  I would want to get rid of as many unknowns that they have for me.   

I'm not too concern about non weapon training in the park.  This is just what I would do if I were to train with weapons in the park.  I would also need a good answer to "why don't you train at home?"


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2021)

This is how my county parks define weapons: 
_Weapon means firearm, rifle, pistol, revolver, paintball gun, or any weapon designed or intended to propel a shot, bullet, or other missile of any kind, or any device capable of discharging a projectile by air, spirit, gas or explosive, or any explosive substance or harmful solid, liquid and gaseous substance, or any spear, arrow, bow and arrow, slingshot, crossbow, spear or spear gun, or any knife, as defined by state law, dirk,   Bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, or any other knife, straight-edged razor, spring stick, metal knuckles, blackjack, any bat, club or other bludgeon-type weapon, or any flailing instrument or any disk which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, or any weapon of like kind, and any stun gun, taser or similar device_.          

Based on this I definitely won't be able to train on county parks property.  Not even with my staff.   I don't think saying "Look at Kung Fu vs MMA"  Kung Fu is fake is going to save me legally lol.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It doesn't matter if the sword is blunt or not.  The law doesn't define or take into consideration if the knife is short.  It only cares about the length of the blade.  It could be a flimsy weapon and it won't matter because the length of the blade is what they are looking at.
> 
> In addition, I would have to practice it in a safe manner like far away from people who may stray into the path of my practice.  Some parks have rules against weapons in the park.  I would then follow up with both the city and county police department.  I would want them to know when I'm in the park and for how long.  In addition I would want to get written permission or a permit showing that I'm allowed to train with that one weapon in the park.  But even before then I will still want to build up a relationship with the police and the city.  Maybe let them know that I will be practicing Martial Arts in the park, so don't freak out.  If someone calls and says that there's some crazy black guy that looks dangerous.  I would want the police and city to be familiar with me and my behavior.  I would want to get rid of as many unknowns that they have for me.
> 
> I'm not too concern about non weapon training in the park.  This is just what I would do if I were to train with weapons in the park. * I would also need a good answer to "why don't you train at home?"*


That's exactly what I want to ask you before reading the last sentence.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not too concern about non weapon training in the park.  This is just what I would do if I were to train with weapons in the park.  I would also need a good answer to "why don't you train at home?"


"Because I don't want to."


JowGaWolf said:


> This is how my county parks define weapons:
> _Weapon means firearm, rifle, pistol, revolver, paintball gun, or any weapon designed or intended to propel a shot, bullet, or other missile of any kind, or any device capable of discharging a projectile by air, spirit, gas or explosive, or any explosive substance or harmful solid, liquid and gaseous substance, or any spear, arrow, bow and arrow, slingshot, crossbow, spear or spear gun, or any knife, as defined by state law, dirk,   Bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, or any other knife, straight-edged razor, spring stick, metal knuckles, blackjack, any bat, club or other bludgeon-type weapon, or any flailing instrument or any disk which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart, or any weapon of like kind, and any stun gun, taser or similar device_.
> 
> Based on this I definitely won't be able to train on county parks property.  Not even with my staff.   I don't think saying "Look at Kung Fu vs MMA"  Kung Fu is fake is going to save me legally lol.


Laws like this are often what I call "convenience" laws. If you're being a douche canoe, the police have a convenient reason to bust you. HEMA groups like the SCA and such have been fighting in parks all over the world for decades without any problem.


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## caped crusader (Nov 3, 2021)

Laws like this are often what I call "*convenience" laws.* If you're being a douche canoe, the police have a convenient reason to bust you.

Not a police hater but it Sounds a bit corrupt to me. Any time I speak to the police I'm polite and Co operative but you do get douche bag cops too.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 3, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Laws like this are often what I call "*convenience" laws.* If you're being a douche canoe, the police have a convenient reason to bust you.
> 
> Not a police hater but it Sounds a bit corrupt to me. Any time I speak to the police I'm polite and Co operative but you do get douche bag cops too.


I think most people would say it sounds like the Police are intelligent humans and can apply reason. 
If a group of people want to go to the park, armor up, and smack each other with rattan sticks, why should it be a problem? If one (or more) go to the park and are assaulting or threatening others, the why shouldn't it be a problem?


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## caped crusader (Nov 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> one (or more) go to the park and are assaulting or threatening others, the why shouldn't it be a problem?


Ok that's another situation, clear assaults.  They way you came over it's a flexible rule which can be bent depending on the officers discretion.



Dirty Dog said:


> I think most people would say it sounds like the Police are intelligent humans and can apply reason


A matter of opinion.  I saw a video where a cop was strangling an ambulance driver because of some traffic violation..LOL  meanwhile old guy Was in the back with a heart attack dying.
So no not all are intelligent.


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## wolfeyes2323 (Nov 3, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I read online, it's confusing, I want to see if anyone know whether this is legal to carry out.
> 
> View attachment 27485


In the USA in general it is Illegal to carry any weapon other than a legal firearm for the purpose of self defense.


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## pwtlake (Nov 3, 2021)

Expanding batons are not legal in California. This state has very restrictive laws, especially around weapons. Many if not most guns, all switchblade knives, nunchakus, sword canes, sap gloves, are illegal. Plastic knuckled motorcycle gloves are kind of legal, as long as they're not too weighted (if too heavy, they become "sap" gloves). "Bayarea" California is not a place name per se. "The Bay Area" is an informal collection of cities and counties centered around San Francisco Bay, not a judicial unit with its own specific laws. Something could be illegal in San Francisco, but not in Marin, for example. Generally don't have "Bay Area" laws. The items listed above are illegal state-wide. Noon-chucks are good for a year in jail.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 3, 2021)

pwtlake said:


> Expanding batons are not legal in California. This state has very restrictive laws, especially around weapons. Many if not most guns, all switchblade knives, nunchakus, sword canes, sap gloves, are illegal. Plastic knuckled motorcycle gloves are kind of legal, as long as they're not too weighted (if too heavy, they become "sap" gloves). "Bayarea" California is not a place name per se. "The Bay Area" is an informal collection of cities and counties centered around San Francisco Bay, not a judicial unit with its own specific laws. Something could be illegal in San Francisco, but not in Marin, for example. Generally don't have "Bay Area" laws. The items listed above are illegal state-wide. Noon-chucks are good for a year in jail.


That's what my understanding also, just a discussion with my friend and he think the expandable baton is legal as long as there's no lead in it. I told him no already, but I just want to run it by here.

Actually one doesn't get into as much trouble with a conceal gun than all these. It's crazy. But for me, gun is too deadly, once you use it, there's no turning back. So unless I know I am heading into a dangerous area, I won't even think about carrying a gun. My good old walking cane will out do pocket knives, short baton(expandable or not) and all that. It is 20oz, 29" long fiber reinforced nylon, people don't want to be hit by my cane. I have been practice cane fight for the last 8 months, not just carrying a cane. I even lost 10lbs after adding the cane exercise without even cutting down on food intake.

Funny, seems like a lot of people feel insulted to the idea of carrying a cane even when they are close to 60!!! To me, they are OLD, a cane doesn't make them look any older!!! I can saw my stepson ( 57) got a little offended when I suggested him to carry a cane as he has to take a bus to go to work in San Francisco everyday. There are a lot of crazy people, thugs on the bus. He refused, so that's it!!! My friend I had the discussion is kind of like this. Now he is talking about the expandable baton. I told him don't. I carry my cane everywhere.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 3, 2021)

pwtlake said:


> Expanding batons are not legal in California. This state has very restrictive laws, especially around weapons. Many if not most guns, all switchblade knives, nunchakus, sword canes, sap gloves, are illegal. Plastic knuckled motorcycle gloves are kind of legal, as long as they're not too weighted (if too heavy, they become "sap" gloves). "Bayarea" California is not a place name per se. "The Bay Area" is an informal collection of cities and counties centered around San Francisco Bay, not a judicial unit with its own specific laws. Something could be illegal in San Francisco, but not in Marin, for example. Generally don't have "Bay Area" laws. The items listed above are illegal state-wide. Noon-chucks are good for a year in jail.


Switchblades are legal to possess, but not to carry on your person, nor in the passenger compartment of a vehicle.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 3, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Switchblades are legal to possess, but not to carry on your person, nor in the passenger compartment of a vehicle.


Incorrect. You can carry an automatic knife. It just has to be small.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Incorrect. You can carry an automatic knife. It just has to be small.


That’s true, I stand corrected. It most have a blade length of less than 2 inches.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 3, 2021)

Must.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Incorrect. You can carry an automatic knife. It just has to be small.


Shouldn’t you be fighting with ol what’s his name about his bedroom warrior slo mo videos? I’m kidding you.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 3, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Incorrect. You can carry an automatic knife. It just has to be small.


He really has a talent for getting under skin.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 3, 2021)

Here are the aforementioned pics.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because I don't want to."


Lol. I was thinking more along the lines of "more space"


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## caped crusader (Nov 4, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> That's what my understanding also, just a discussion with my friend and he think the expandable baton is legal as long as there's no lead in it. I told him no already, but I just want to run it by here.
> 
> Actually one doesn't get into as much trouble with a conceal gun than all these. It's crazy. But for me, gun is too deadly, once you use it, there's no turning back. So unless I know I am heading into a dangerous area, I won't even think about carrying a gun. My good old walking cane will out do pocket knives, short baton(expandable or not) and all that. It is 20oz, 29" long fiber reinforced nylon, people don't want to be hit by my cane. I have been practice cane fight for the last 8 months, not just carrying a cane. I even lost 10lbs after adding the cane exercise without even cutting down on food intake.
> 
> Funny, seems like a lot of people feel insulted to the idea of carrying a cane even when they are close to 60!!! To me, they are OLD, a cane doesn't make them look any older!!! I can saw my stepson ( 57) got a little offended when I suggested him to carry a cane as he has to take a bus to go to work in San Francisco everyday. There are a lot of crazy people, thugs on the bus. He refused, so that's it!!! My friend I had the discussion is kind of like this. Now he is talking about the expandable baton. I told him don't. I carry my cane everywhere.


well a cane is perfectly fine for any age... I know an ex Sgt Maj  who still walks around here with his pace stick. A pace stick is used to measure drill paces & has a history in the British Army. Definitely a great weapon. As far as i know no German cop has bothered him.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Ok that's another situation, clear assaults.  They way you came over it's a flexible rule which can be bent depending on the officers discretion.
> 
> 
> A matter of opinion.  I saw a video where a cop was strangling an ambulance driver because of some traffic violation..LOL  meanwhile old guy Was in the back with a heart attack dying.
> So no not all are intelligent.


That's why I would build a good relationship with the police.  It's easier to treat someone you dont know like that then to treat  someone you do know.  As far as human intelligence, some of us are just stupid.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 4, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's why I would build a good relationship with the police.  It's easier to treat someone you dont know like that then to treat  someone you do know.  As far as human intelligence, some of us are just stupid.


as i wrote before i am not a police hater. If they are polite you co operate. 
I remember i was fighting with another soldier outside a bar in canada, before i knew it i was over a car bonnet with a stick at my throat. The cop was OK i just did some fast talking saying we will go in different directions no more trouble. Guy let us go. Was 4 cops there but the cop i spoke to was a decent guy and saw i meant it.


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## Alan0354 (Nov 5, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> well a cane is perfectly fine for any age... I know an ex Sgt Maj  who still walks around here with his pace stick. A pace stick is used to measure drill paces & has a history in the British Army. Definitely a great weapon. As far as i know no German cop has bothered him.
> View attachment 27523View attachment 27523


Funny why walk around with a pace stick? Because of the sharper metal tips?


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 5, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Funny why walk around with a pace stick? Because of the sharper metal tips?


In the Regiment, warrant officers were mostly in barrack dress and carried a pace stick. Even in working dress in some cases. I suppose he just got used to carrying one. If it was intended as a self defense Tool I can't say. I remember talking to him and he had the Stick years later as a civilian. I suppose it's a bit weird but I sort of understand him. Maybe he could if he got into trouble say it was a walking stick..😁
As far as the end of the stick goes it could be very nasty if thrust.


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## wab25 (Nov 5, 2021)

There are a couple of things you could get training in for various situations. What makes training in these weapons so significant is not that you would carry the weapon with you, but that many everyday objects can be used for many of the techniques.

Hanbo - This is a 36 inch stick. It is used not only for hitting but for grapples, entanglements and chokes. Many of the moves here, could be done with wrench, ruler, rolled up magazine, umbrella, walking stick... anything really in the 18-40 inch range. Heck, some of the chokes could be done with a towel.

Yawara Stick or Kuboton - These are very short sticks, 4 to 8 inches in length. While you wouldn't carry these weapons, you could use many of the same techniques with a pen, marker or any very short stick. Again, the techniques for these involve strikes, grapples, chokes and pressure points.

Studying these two weapons will give you a pretty good grasp on how to use everyday objects. This way, you might be able to utilize something that you normally would have or could grab. 

I would stay away from carrying the "tactical pens" made out of aircraft grade aluminum. This could easily be viewed as a weapon, especially when it says "tactical pen" and they look up the pen on the internet and find that it is made to be used as a weapon... may put it into the concealed weapon category (depending upon the lawyers and such). Besides, these are expensive... and you don't really need aircraft grade aluminum. For $3 you can buy a pack of Zebra ball point pens... with aluminum barrels. They work every bit as well, are super cheap and don't advertise "I am really a weapon."


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## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

How about these kind of rings with spikes?






I was suggested these rings are grappler's nightmare!!! I ordered a few already, it's cheap.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> How about these kind of rings with spikes?
> View attachment 27695View attachment 27696
> 
> I was suggested these rings are grappler's nightmare!!! I ordered a few already, it's cheap.


I'm not convinced this sort of thing would be anyones nightmare.


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## dvcochran (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> How about these kind of rings with spikes?
> View attachment 27695View attachment 27696
> 
> I was suggested these rings are grappler's nightmare!!! I ordered a few already, it's cheap.


So what would you do with these on the mat?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> How about these kind of rings with spikes?
> View attachment 27695View attachment 27696
> 
> I was suggested these rings are grappler's nightmare!!! I ordered a few already, it's cheap.


This is called escalation. The worst beating I ever gave someone started when he put his keys between his fingers as he approached me. Caution.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 6, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not convinced this sort of thing would be anyones nightmare.


I’m convinced these will really piss someone off.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

Hey, It's bad if I get into fight with a grappler already, at least if I use the ring to punch on his head, ribs and other part to make him let go, at least I can use strike to defend myself.

At least in striking, I have a chance, *you mean I should let him break my arms or legs and hope for mercy?* At least I know I can punch hard, with the ring, I should be able to hurt him.


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## dvcochran (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Hey, It's bad if I get into fight with a grappler already, at least if I use the ring to punch on his head, ribs and other part to make him let go, at least I can use strike to defend myself.
> 
> At least in striking, I have a chance, *you mean I should let him break my arms or legs and hope for mercy?* At least I know I can punch hard, with the ring, I should be able to hurt him.


My right ring finger was broken by a ring the got hung on a wire fence. 
I only wear my wedding band now.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> My left ring finger was broken by a ring the got hung on a wire fence.
> I only wear a my wedding band now.


Now, that makes sense. I do question if I start punching with the ring, what does that do to my finger.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Now, that makes sense. I do question if I start punching with the ring, what does that do to my finger.


I got my ring finger stuck in a guys shirt pocket during a throw in a parking lot fight, it spiral fractured my fourth carpal bone in my left hand. He went down but i had to reduce that fracture myself right then because I was far from any hospital. My ring finger looks to be 1/2 inch shorter than the other and it hurts often enough even after 18 years. That ring you want is begging to get stuck in clothing. Consider what happens then…


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Hey, It's bad if I get into fight with a grappler already, at least if I use the ring to punch on his head, ribs and other part to make him let go, at least I can use strike to defend myself.
> 
> At least in striking, I have a chance, *you mean I should let him break my arms or legs and hope for mercy?* At least I know I can punch hard, with the ring, I should be able to hurt him.


I don't think the ring gives you a great deal more to work with, except to create blood. In a significant fight, I don't know that it'll create enough pain to change things.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

I got the idea from Kung Fu Wang:
The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement

Post #55. I thought it makes sense. It's cheap, I ordered like 7 of them!!!

I was a little concern about my finger, but if it actually can break my finger, then, it's not a good idea.

Regarding to making the opponent angry, I can CARE LESS. My point is to do whatever to get back up on my feet and slug it out. What make you think I cannot beat them standing up? I'd scratch, punch, bite, eyes gouging, anything to get back on my feet. If I still get beat up, that's on me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 6, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> My right ring finger was broken by a ring the got hung on a wire fence.
> I only wear my wedding band now.


I peeled the skin off part of my ring finger getting my wedding band caught on a ladder once. I still wince thinking about it.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not convinced this sort of thing would be anyones nightmare.


It may make someone mad lol.   I know I worry about the take down game as a priority, but not to the extent that I need a spike wring.  If I wanted some equipment that would take away some of that game then I would go for spike wrist bands to help discourage wrist controls.  lol  






Then if I'm still nervous, then I will just get theses lol.  I'll just turn myself into one big porcupine lol




All I need after that is some KISS boots.  and I'm set for the perfect defense.  Spike arm bands mean I don't even have to punch lol.

But seriously.  In Georgia that spiked ring could be seen as a concealed weapon.  If the police find that ring on a self-defense site then it could bring some legal issues if it's used specifically for the purpose of fighting.  It ranks up there with brass knuckles.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I got the idea from Kung Fu Wang:
> The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement
> 
> Post #55. I thought it makes sense. It's cheap, I ordered like 7 of them!!!
> ...


You seem to have an intense concern for your personal safety.  Are you getting into weekly confrontations lately?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I peeled the skin off part of my ring finger getting my wedding band caught on a ladder once. I still wince thinking about it.


Ouch.  I don't even like to think of things like that lol  .  Ring injuries are really nasty.  Now I want to take mine off


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It may make someone mad lol.   I know I worry about the take down game as a priority, but not to the extent that I need a spike wring.  If I wanted some equipment that would take away some of that game then I would go for spike wrist bands to help discourage wrist controls.  lol
> 
> View attachment 27700
> 
> ...


Lol! What about the mask?


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## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You seem to have an intense concern for your personal safety.  Are you getting into weekly confrontations lately?


No, in fact, I live in a nice neighborhood. BUT looking at all the older Chinese being attacked, I have to be prepared. That's the only reason I join this forum, learning stick fight. You see all the looting, robbing now a days, people in rich neighborhood are being robbed now. Crime is at over 20 years high in a lot of parts of this country.

Yes, I have other options, like I am carrying pepper spray, I can even carry knife in my pocket also at one time. BUT you see, I carry my cane as the primary weapon swinging with both hands, I don't have extra hand to pull out pepper spray or knife. A spike ring should not get in the way of me swinging the cane. then if I get taken down, it's on my finger to use. I don't have to reach into my pocket to get the spray or knife.

Hell, I just bought a Glock 26 early this year after not playing with guns for over 20 years so I have an option for carrying it out.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It may make someone mad lol.   I know I worry about the take down game as a priority, but not to the extent that I need a spike wring.  If I wanted some equipment that would take away some of that game then I would go for spike wrist bands to help discourage wrist controls.  lol
> 
> View attachment 27700
> 
> ...


These don't past the 'appearance" test!! Spike on the wrist is so much more useful and effective than the spike ring. Just use TKD ridge hand and it's right there to use.

Don't even have to get big one like this, I am sure a small one like only 1" wide with small spikes will work magic on grappler already. But I am not a punk, everything I use has to look very ordinary and innocent. Like my fiber filled Nylon cane was designed as weapon, I made them look so innocent that they are for old people only.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ouch.  I don't even like to think of things like that lol  .  Ring injuries are really nasty.  Now I want to take mine off


I still have the ring. It’s bent and unwearable. Finger healed fine, though.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> No, in fact, I live in a nice neighborhood. BUT looking at all the older Chinese being attacked, I have to be prepared.


This is why I asked.  I was thinking that your concern was based on something that the rest of us weren't having to deal with.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is why I asked.  I was thinking that your concern was based on something that the rest of us weren't having to deal with.


Have to be prepared. Particular I am Chinese. Crimes know no neighborhood, the American flag in front of my house got stolen and this is a neighborhood of houses from $1.8M to $2.5M. My wife doesn't even want to take walk anymore.

You see the news a man today got followed home and robbed in the rich Los Angeles Ca.? Those are really rich area.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> These don't past the 'appearance" test!! Spike on the wrist is so much more useful and effective than the spike ring. Just use TKD ridge hand and it's right there to use.
> 
> Don't even have to get big one like this, I am sure a small one like only 1" wide with small spikes will work magic on grappler already. But I am not a punk, everything I use has to look very ordinary and innocent. Like my fiber filled Nylon cane was designed as weapon, I made them look so innocent that they are for old people only.


Get a Caucasian Shepherd and you'll never need to worry about anyone attacking you ever again lol.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Get a Caucasian Shepherd and you'll never need to worry about anyone attacking you ever again lol.


what make you think they fair any better?? 

The rich guy in LA that got robbed is white!!!

Other than Chinese got singled out because of the China virus that crashed the world, everybody else is fair game in robbery.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Lol! What about the mask?


ha ha ha.  I had to look it up. All I can say is that people have some really unique interests. ha ha ha.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> what make you think they fair any better??


Yep, I'm pretty sure they would fair better.  Lets put it to a test. Say the guy in the picture is Asian.  Imagine that you are the thugs that you try to prepare yourself against.   When you look at this guy, do you really think you will be attacking that guy while he's with the dog?  What's the first thought in your mind.  Worry about the man? or Worry about the dog? lol





I would like to have a dog like this, but I hear they are very territorial.  I had a smaller dog that was like that and she wouldn't hesitate to attack guests.  I couldn't manage a larger version of that same behavior.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I got the idea from Kung Fu Wang:
> The Mechanics Of Powering Your Martial Arts Movement
> 
> Post #55. I thought it makes sense. It's cheap, I ordered like 7 of them!!!
> ...


Keep in mind-I've no practical experience with them, so this is conjecture. I'd guess the same is true for others that have posted here though, not sure many have practiced with ring spikes.

My guess is that it would be like brass knuckles-if you use it directly, the impact will come back on you and end up hurting your own finger, causing you more pain then your opponent. That pressure has to go somewhere, and if you hit something dead on, it'll go directly to you (the other comparison I can think of is gun recoil, although that's less accurate). So the only way to use it would be swiping/indirectly. You've also got to be careful when grappling because you're just as likely to accidentally hit yourself as your opponent, if your hands are tied up at all.

The issue with that, is that you'll break skin, but particularly with a swipe, you're not going to actually do much damage. The person you're fighting will bleed, but with adrenaline running that's about it, it won't actually help you all that much. The exception would be if you get them in like the eye or something, but if you've got a good shot of someone's eye, do you really need to rely on the ring? Overall, from a SD perspective, it doesn't seem worth it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> everybody else is fair game in robbery.


Yes and no.  Criminals don't see everyone in the same way.  If they are trying to rob you then they are looking for that path of least resistance.  Their goal is to rob you, not fight you or kill you. Which is why police will tell you to just give up the cash.  

If you resist then they may add a secondary goals, like shoot or stab you.  Other cases people get shot and stabbed first and robbed.  But in those cases that's usually part of the primary goal.  Stab you, so you know they are serious.

In your case dealing with hate crimes.  Robbers don't look at their victims like that.  Robbers want something you got.  Hate crimes just want to harm you out of anger an hate.  But even then those who commit those crimes look for targets that think are easy.  Where you see your cane as protection, a person who wants to commit a hate crime may see an advantage for them.   

They may target you because you have a cane, and they may think you are using a can because you have a bad leg or hip.  Then they may see the cane as something they can take away from you.  There are downsides to walking with a cane.

Not everyone gets targeted by thugs and robbers.  They are selective about who they attack.  Not everyone gets attacked as part of a hate crime.    If you look like an easy target then you'll probably get a visit.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yep, I'm pretty sure they would fair better.  Lets put it to a test. Say the guy in the picture is Asian.  Imagine that you are the thugs that you try to prepare yourself against.   When you look at this guy, do you really think you will be attacking that guy while he's with the dog?  What's the first thought in your mind.  Worry about the man? or Worry about the dog? lol
> 
> View attachment 27708
> 
> I would like to have a dog like this, but I hear they are very territorial.  I had a smaller dog that was like that and she wouldn't hesitate to attack guests.  I couldn't manage a larger version of that same behavior.


Oh, excuse me, I thought you meant a white man!!! I was wondering what shepherd. I did not know it's a dog. That, will work.


----------



## Alan0354 (Dec 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yes and no.  Criminals don't see everyone in the same way.  If they are trying to rob you then they are looking for that path of least resistance.  Their goal is to rob you, not fight you or kill you. Which is why police will tell you to just give up the cash.
> 
> If you resist then they may add a secondary goals, like shoot or stab you.  Other cases people get shot and stabbed first and robbed.  But in those cases that's usually part of the primary goal.  Stab you, so you know they are serious.
> 
> ...


Ha ha, a lot of time I hold the cane at the middle and walk with a bounce to show I am NOT using the cane, more like "Don't tread on me"!!! I did see someone else (an asian) doing the same thing. He got an even long walking stick and he held in the middle and kind of swinging around while walking in the neighborhood.

This is a good you remind me that I should go out of my way to do more holding the cane in the middle to walk.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 6, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Keep in mind-I've no practical experience with them, so this is conjecture. I'd guess the same is true for others that have posted here though, not sure many have practiced with ring spikes.
> 
> My guess is that it would be like brass knuckles-if you use it directly, the impact will come back on you and end up hurting your own finger, causing you more pain then your opponent. That pressure has to go somewhere, and if you hit something dead on, it'll go directly to you (the other comparison I can think of is gun recoil, although that's less accurate). So the only way to use it would be swiping/indirectly. You've also got to be careful when grappling because you're just as likely to accidentally hit yourself as your opponent, if your hands are tied up at all.
> 
> The issue with that, is that you'll break skin, but particularly with a swipe, you're not going to actually do much damage. The person you're fighting will bleed, but with adrenaline running that's about it, it won't actually help you all that much. The exception would be if you get them in like the eye or something, but if you've got a good shot of someone's eye, do you really need to rely on the ring? Overall, from a SD perspective, it doesn't seem worth it.


Ways to use the ring.





My concerns are like yours.
1. Will punching with the wring cause more damage to my finger as my single finger is going to take the impact I'm assuming that it's only for soft tissue.

2. If I turn the points toward my palm, does that mean I won't be able to make a fist for punching.

3.  Will scratching with the ring cause more damage to my finger.  I assume that the ring will pull my finger every time it digs into the skin of my attacker.

I punch with my knuckles not my fingers so there's that.  Then there's the risk of the ring getting caught in clothing and could injure my finger.

The 4th issue would be the legal issue.  Lots and lots of opportunity to get into legal trouble.  In a lot of cases it's just better to get a license and carry a more reliable weapon. Between a ring and a knife, the knife may be the better option than trying to strike someone with a ring.  Anyone who as sparred before understands that punching someone in the head without getting punched is not as easy as it sounds.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 7, 2021)

I guess the ring is out, sounds like it will hurt me more than the guy!!! But when I receive the ring, I still will try punching the pole and see.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yep, I'm pretty sure they would fair better.  Lets put it to a test. Say the guy in the picture is Asian.  Imagine that you are the thugs that you try to prepare yourself against.   When you look at this guy, do you really think you will be attacking that guy while he's with the dog?  What's the first thought in your mind.  Worry about the man? or Worry about the dog? lol
> 
> View attachment 27708
> 
> I would like to have a dog like this, but I hear they are very territorial.  I had a smaller dog that was like that and she wouldn't hesitate to attack guests.  I couldn't manage a larger version of that same behavior.


Honestly, pitbulls have a horrid reputation, but are really sweet dogs. This makes them great for deterring attacks, all while making the home cuddly. I think they are a missed opportunity for folks who want protection. Of course, if you want real protection, something like a malinois or GSD, or even a mastiff.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I guess the ring is out, sounds like it will hurt me more than the guy!!! But when I receive the ring, I still will try punching the pole and see.


let us know how it goes


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I guess the ring is out, sounds like it will hurt me more than the guy!!! But when I receive the ring, I still will try punching the pole and see.


Start lightly, just in case.


----------



## dvcochran (Dec 7, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I still have the ring. It’s bent and unwearable. Finger healed fine, though.


Same here. I was sprinting to get away from a pissed off cow and jumped a fence at full speed. Cleared the fence fine (back when I was fast  ) but the ring caught on the top strand of wire. With my finger/hand/arm stuck to the fence, the momentum of my body whipped my back toward the fence. The finger took all the force and broke. Hurt like a b***h.
The ring twisted, getting stuck in the fence. We ended up having to cut the ring at the skinny end to free it (and my finger) from the fence. The shape or the ring was very deformed when it was all over. 
I took the ring to a local jeweler and he done a fantastic job repairing the ring.  
It was a ring given to me in 1993 by the then President of MDK (GM Chon, Jae Kyu). It is stored away in a ring box. I have seen it in years. Think I will go dig it out.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Oh, excuse me, I thought you meant a white man!!! I was wondering what shepherd. I did not know it's a dog. That, will work.


Lol! I pictured a Jesus with a shepherds crook.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 7, 2021)

I 


Gerry Seymour said:


> Honestly, pitbulls have a horrid reputation, but are really sweet dogs. This makes them great for deterring attacks, all while making the home cuddly. I think they are a missed opportunity for folks who want protection. Of course, if you want real protection, something like a malinois or GSD, or even a mastiff.


I have 2 pit bulls. They are worthless for a protection dog, but I love them dearly. They like everyone. Even cats they don’t know. I do believe they would protect me from stray dogs or raccoons buts that’s about it. People do cross the street because they are intimidating to look at.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 7, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I
> 
> I have 2 pit bulls. They are worthless for a protection dog, but I love them dearly. They like everyone. Even cats they don’t know. I do believe they would protect me from stray dogs or raccoons buts that’s about it. People do cross the street because they are intimidating to look at.


Yep. That's pitties for you. Most are worthless for protection, because if anyone gets close enough to be bitten, the dog is too busy begging for pets. Mine just goes belly-up.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 7, 2021)

I am not a dog person, When I saw "White Shepherd", I thought that means a white man, and what is shepherd has to do with it. Never even related that to a dog!!!

Didn't realize you guys all have dogs.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am not a dog person, When I saw "White Shepherd", I thought that means a white man, and what is shepherd has to do with it. Never even related that to a dog!!!
> 
> Didn't realize you guys all have dogs.


It was very funny!


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 7, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I
> 
> I have 2 pit bulls. They are worthless for a protection dog, but I love them dearly. They like everyone. Even cats they don’t know. I do believe they would protect me from stray dogs or raccoons buts that’s about it. People do cross the street because they are intimidating to look at.


I think that's all you need with dogs.  If they can shift the the thoughts of a criminal from "robbing you" to "being more concerned about your dogs" then your dogs would have done the work of protecting you.  Some people are terrified of dogs.  Just think if this guy wants to fight you then just bring a puppy lol.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think that's all you need with dogs.  If they can shift the the thoughts of a criminal from "robbing you" to "being more concerned about your dogs" then your dogs would have done the work of protecting you.  Some people are terrified of dogs.  Just think if this guy wants to fight you then just bring a puppy lol.


Too true. People are almost always afraid of my dogs, unless they own or know a pit bull, in which case they come right up and pet them and tell me about theirs.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 7, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am not a dog person, When I saw "White Shepherd", I thought that means a white man, and what is shepherd has to do with it. Never even related that to a dog!!!
> 
> Didn't realize you guys all have dogs.


How much is it to buy a white man these days to shepherd me around town? Probably more if I want walk him on leash and collar.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 7, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> How much is it to buy a white man these days to shepherd me around town? Probably more if I want walk him on leash and collar.


Or maybe not. I hear some folks will pay you for that.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 8, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Or maybe not. I hear some folks will pay you for that.


I’m available For the right price.


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## Alan0354 (Dec 13, 2021)

OK, I got those rings:






The one with 3 spikes is USELESS, never even get to the pole test. If the ring turn a little, the spike will hurt your next finger, don't even need to do punching pole. This one is OUT.

The one on the right with two big spike is more promising. I punching the pole lightly, it's not too bad. I am not going to punch the bag for obvious reason, I don't want to ruin the bag. I think one might get use to it like you get use to punching pole. But I am not going to spend time just to see.

One way that might be useful, turn the spike around to the palm side. Use it for slapping and rubbing on the face of the opponent:





I tried punching the heavy bag, occasionally it does prick my palm, but it's not too bad. I definitely can punch. BUT, is it that useful, I'll let you guys think about it. It sure can hurt if you push against the opponent's face or slap on the back of the head. You can still punch without seriously injure your hand.

That's my impression, all in all, I would NOT say it is useless, question is whether it is that useful slapping and rubbing on the face of the opponent.

Surprisingly, it does not interfere with me when I swing to cane with two hands. So far, it's ok. That would be a no go if it interferes with my cane fight as I regard my cane is my primary self defense weapon.



*AND NO*!!! I refuse to worry about making the guy angrier using the ring, just let him beat me up with submission and hope he will be kinder.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 14, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> OK, I got those rings:
> 
> View attachment 27729
> 
> ...


Are you sure you don’t want to just have me shepherd you around?


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## Alan0354 (Dec 14, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Are you sure you don’t want to just have me shepherd you around?


I am too cheap to pay. My middle name is CHEAP or EL CHEAPO!!! 😂 🤣


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