# Difference between a cross and a reverse punch



## skribs (Nov 24, 2017)

When I started Taekwondo, I learned the basic Jab-Reverse combo.  I thought "reverse punch" was just a different name for the cross in boxing.  But I've also heard that the TKD reverse punch is different than a boxing cross.

I don't have any experience in boxing, so what's the difference between the two?  Or is whoever said they're different just speaking nonsense?


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## JR 137 (Nov 24, 2017)

skribs said:


> When I started Taekwondo, I learned the basic Jab-Reverse combo.  I thought "reverse punch" was just a different name for the cross in boxing.  But I've also heard that the TKD reverse punch is different than a boxing cross.
> 
> I don't have any experience in boxing, so what's the difference between the two?  Or is whoever said they're different just speaking nonsense?


I assume it’s just different names for the same thing.  The mechanics might be a bit different, but they’re going to differ slightly from school to school, regardless of if it’s within TKD, karate, boxing, etc. schools.

There’s only so many ways to throw any punch.  There’s far more things to call them though.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 24, 2017)

My answer based on my own investigation into the differences between karate and boxing is that a punch should be defined by its mechanics and these while outwardly are similar they are different punches due to different mechanics.
To simplify  (perhaps overly) imagine your punching hand turning a crank. In boxing you are turning the crank counter clock wise (assuming your punching with right hand ). With a karate reverse punch you are turning the crank clock wise, in the opposite direction.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 24, 2017)

I'll say the

- "boxing cross" punch from the boxing guard. The may not be any arm twisting,
- "TKD reverse punch" punch from the waist. There is an arm twisting involved.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 24, 2017)

skribs said:


> When I started Taekwondo, I learned the basic Jab-Reverse combo.  I thought "reverse punch" was just a different name for the cross in boxing.  But I've also heard that the TKD reverse punch is different than a boxing cross.
> 
> I don't have any experience in boxing, so what's the difference between the two?  Or is whoever said they're different just speaking nonsense?



There's a fair bit of inherent confusion here due to translation and cultural differences.

In Korea, a "reverse punch" is one from the front hand; what we in the US would most likely refer to as a jab.
In Western TKD schools, a reverse punch is one from the rear hand. It may be straight, a hook, a cross, an uppercut...
The term (in my experience) typically tells you nothing other than which hand is throwing the punch.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> My answer based on my own investigation into the differences between karate and boxing is that a punch should be defined by its mechanics and these while outwardly are similar they are different punches due to different mechanics.
> To simplify  (perhaps overly) imagine your punching hand turning a crank. In boxing you are turning the crank counter clock wise (assuming your punching with right hand ). With a karate reverse punch you are turning the crank clock wise, in the opposite direction.


I really thought that made sense, Hoshin, up to the end. Then I realized I really hadn't followed that at all. Can you explain a different way?


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## Buka (Nov 24, 2017)

They're the same - as in, you get tagged by a few really good ones, it can flat out ruin your day. But they're real different

All food is the same....but, no, all motor vehicles are the same, all women, all men, all dogs....but, we know that's not accurate.

A right cross and a right reverse punch are two different techniques, entirely, and completely different in my opinion. They're thrown differently, their foot work or foot positions are different, the turning of the rear foot [or not] are different, the shoulders are different, both in usual original position, follow through and defensively, they are countered differently, they blend in with other strikes in combinations differently, weight transference on the legs is different.

And they're different even between themselves - we all have a favorite distance to throw punches from, we all have a favorite height we use as a target. When you catch the opponent in closer than he, or you, planned, you will adapt your cross, or your reverse punch, to that particular circumstance - whether you try to or not, or whether you know it or not.

And again, they both really suck when you get caught.


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## skribs (Nov 24, 2017)

Buka said:


> They're the same - as in, you get tagged by a few really good ones, it can flat out ruin your day. But they're real different
> 
> All food is the same....but, no, all motor vehicles are the same, all women, all men, all dogs....but, we know that's not accurate.
> 
> ...



How are they different?  I mean I can tell you that my Mom's cookies are different from store-bought cookies, but if I just say "the chocolate chips are different, the dough is different, the size is different, and the consistency is different" you'd have no idea what's different about them.  If I instead say that my Mom's cookies are smaller, but thicker, have creamier chocolate chips and a doughier texture, whereas store-bought cookies are wider, thinner, and crumbly with harder chocolate chips, that would give you an idea.


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## Buka (Nov 24, 2017)

Ah, okay, I  always liked the food analogy thing.

A reverse punch is smaller, but thicker, and is better dunked in milk than a right cross, whereas a right cross is more crumbly, with a sharper, chocolaty after taste.

Only kidding, sorry. 

When you have time, give this a watch. It's punching from boxing, from a good source. Not any better than any good Karate punching in my opinion, but completely different.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I really thought that made sense, Hoshin, up to the end. Then I realized I really hadn't followed that at all. Can you explain a different way?


The karate reverse punch starts from the hip position while the boxing cross starts from the raised guard. This changes the mechanics. While it might not really be accurate it may help to imagine a line drawn across the shoulders of your opponent. The boxing punch approaches the target over this line to the target while in karate the punch slides up and under that level line to the target.  There is rotation of the shoulder and elbow, boxing rotates so the punch goes over the line, karate rotates to go under the line.
As a disclaimer these comparisons are from my experience in shotokan and uechi ryu karate style punches vs the mechanics of boxing Ken Norton.  So other styles and people may do things differently , absolutes are rare.
Punching is all about body movement and as such it is difficult to express in type. It would be far easier to see and feel.
It has been my experience that I can hit harder with a boxing punch, but the karate punch is less apt to be seen and perceived by the opponent.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> The karate reverse punch starts from the hip position while the boxing cross starts from the raised guard. This changes the mechanics. While it might not really be accurate it may help to imagine a line drawn across the shoulders of your opponent. The boxing punch approaches the target over this line to the target while in karate the punch slides up and under that level line to the target.  There is rotation of the shoulder and elbow, boxing rotates so the punch goes over the line, karate rotates to go under the line.
> As a disclaimer these comparisons are from my experience in shotokan and uechi ryu karate style punches vs the mechanics of boxing Ken Norton.  So other styles and people may do things differently , absolutes are rare.
> Punching is all about body movement and as such it is difficult to express in type. It would be far easier to see and feel.


Got it. I was imagining the clock laying on the ground. Predictably, that made no sense with your explanation.

I forget that many styles use a low chamber. We tend to chamber quite high at the ribs - technically, too high when we train it classically, but it never returns to that chamber when fighting. I've never seen a Karateka chamber fully in sparring, either. For styles where the classical chamber is that low, how does that mechanic translate to sparring? I ask because, to me, there's a more subtle difference between my NGA (Shotokan-derived) straight punch (reverse punch, apparently, for this discussion) and when I switch to the generic boxing punch. I'm guessing that has more to do with the way I deliver both punches than with how either is traditionally done.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 24, 2017)

Another difference between the TKD reverse punch and boxing cross can be:

- When you apply TKD reverse punch, you pull your leading hand back to your waist. So the back hand punch out can be helped by the leading hand pull back.
- I don't think the boxing cross use pull back to help the punch out.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Got it. I was imagining the clock laying on the ground. Predictably, that made no sense with your explanation.
> 
> I forget that many styles use a low chamber. We tend to chamber quite high at the ribs - technically, too high when we train it classically, but it never returns to that chamber when fighting. I've never seen a Karateka chamber fully in sparring, either. For styles where the classical chamber is that low, how does that mechanic translate to sparring? I ask because, to me, there's a more subtle difference between my NGA (Shotokan-derived) straight punch (reverse punch, apparently, for this discussion) and when I switch to the generic boxing punch. I'm guessing that has more to do with the way I deliver both punches than with how either is traditionally done.


Yeah the clock on the floor was not my visual intent.
In application karate ka should not really be doing a full chamber when sparring or fighting and whether you go to the hip or the ribs is irrelevant.  The intent of the chamber is to force the proper shoulder roll mechanics during practice.  I would never advocate to draw the hand back like that except in very rare circumstances.
I'll give one more example that people can play with.
For a boxing punch, roll your shoulders, pull your shoulder down, then back then up high and then forward. Make a circle in this order....down, back, up , forward..the punch extends on the forward...if you watched buka's clip, he mentions that the shoulder is up to protect the chin.
Karate is the opposite direction circle.


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## Danny T (Nov 24, 2017)

Technically in boxing what many call the 'Cross' is a Rear Straight.There is a difference in the rear cross and the rear straight (also called a right punch or straight right) There is a vertical rear straight or a horizontal rear straight though today the horizontal is used predominantly. Mechanically both the rear straight and the rear cross are the same but the cross is thrown as the opponent throws a left jab. The rear straight 'crosses' over the opponent's jab hence the cross. If it doesn't cross the opponent's punch then it is a rear straight or a straight right.


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## Balrog (Nov 24, 2017)

skribs said:


> When I started Taekwondo, I learned the basic Jab-Reverse combo.  I thought "reverse punch" was just a different name for the cross in boxing.  But I've also heard that the TKD reverse punch is different than a boxing cross.
> 
> I don't have any experience in boxing, so what's the difference between the two?  Or is whoever said they're different just speaking nonsense?


Different ways of saying the same thing.  Reverse usually means opposite hand and foot.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Yeah the clock on the floor was not my visual intent.
> In application karate ka should not really be doing a full chamber when sparring or fighting and whether you go to the hip or the ribs is irrelevant.  The intent of the chamber is to force the proper shoulder roll mechanics during practice.  I would never advocate to draw the hand back like that except in very rare circumstances.
> I'll give one more example that people can play with.
> For a boxing punch, roll your shoulders, pull your shoulder down, then back then up high and then forward. Make a circle in this order....down, back, up , forward..the punch extends on the forward...if you watched buka's clip, he mentions that the shoulder is up to protect the chin.
> Karate is the opposite direction circle.


I like that explanation. I noticed some time ago that I freely wander between the two uses of the shoulder (and the respective punching mechanics). That's either a smooth merging of two punching techniques, or just a pair of sloppy punches that happen to work - I'm not sure which. In any case, it leads me to having trouble helping people who have trouble with punches, because the mechanics just feel easy to me, and while they are distinctly different, I don't really notice the difference when I'm using them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 24, 2017)

Balrog said:


> Different ways of saying the same thing.  Reverse usually means opposite hand and foot.


I've always wondered where the term came from. "Lunge punch" made sense to me, but "reverse" never did.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've always wondered where the term came from. "Lunge punch" made sense to me, but "reverse" never did.


I only use the term reverse punch when standing in a left foot forward stance and punch with the right hand.


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## Buka (Nov 25, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Technically in boxing what many call the 'Cross' is a Rear Straight.There is a difference in the rear cross and the rear straight (also called a right punch or straight right) There is a vertical rear straight or a horizontal rear straight though today the horizontal is used predominantly. Mechanically both the rear straight and the rear cross are the same but the cross is thrown as the opponent throws a left jab. The rear straight 'crosses' over the opponent's jab hence the cross. If it doesn't cross the opponent's punch then it is a rear straight or a straight right.



I like to teach the cross, straight right and an overhand right as three different punches. [or lefts]


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 25, 2017)

Buka said:


> I like to teach the cross, straight right and an overhand right as three different punches. [or lefts]


What do you teach as the difference between a cross and straight? I've understood the distinction as what Danny posted.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 25, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I only use the term reverse punch when standing in a left foot forward stance and punch with the right hand.


If you stand in a "cross stance" with right leg forward and left hand forward (or the other way around), the term "reverse punch" will no longer make sense.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 25, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I only use the term reverse punch when standing in a left foot forward stance and punch with the right hand.



What do you call it when you're in a right foot forward stance and punch with the left hand??


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 25, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> What do you call it when you're in a right foot forward stance and punch with the left hand??


Fighting lefty 
And since my left side seems to be either defiant of my will or slightly retarded,  punching lefty is an entirely different thing.
But for the rest of the world yeah that could be a reverse punch too.


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## Danny T (Nov 26, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> What do you teach as the difference between a cross and straight? I've understood the distinction as what Danny posted.


Besides timing, footwork/body movement, and punch trajectory?


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## Danny T (Nov 26, 2017)

Buka said:


> I like to teach the cross, straight right and an overhand right as three different punches. [or lefts]


Tactically they are. Especially the overhand.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 26, 2017)

I should imagine it would have to do with the angle the punch takes to the opponent.


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## drop bear (Nov 26, 2017)

For us even the lead cross gets thrown different to a cross after a jab. 

Punching differs situationally. And if you were to try to break that down you would be dealing with a skill set that contains hundreds of different crosses or reverse punches.

Be more of a mind love than a help I think


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## Buka (Nov 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> What do you teach as the difference between a cross and straight? I've understood the distinction as what Danny posted.



The problem comes from the Etymology. "Cross" is a boxing term, at least originally. And most would think that it would be completely standard in the world of boxing. I have not found that to be the case, as it is and it isn't, depending on who's doing the teaching.


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## Danny T (Nov 27, 2017)

Buka said:


> The problem comes from the Etymology. "Cross" is a boxing term, at least originally. And most would think that it would be completely standard in the world of boxing. I have not found that to be the case, as it is and it isn't, depending on who's doing the teaching.



True...I know several who call any relatively straight punch thrown with the rear hand a cross. There are those who call the rear straight a cross explaining, it 'crosses' the body. ??? 

"The cross is a powerful straight punch thrown across the body originating from the strongest dominant hand (rear hand). The primary target area for the cross is the front of the opponent’s face. Technique wise, the rear hand is thrown from the chin, crossing the body and traveling in a straight line."  
Try throwing a punch that way. There will be 'NO POWER'.

So then it is explain, "the rear shoulder is thrust forward as the torso and hips are rotated counter-clockwise as the 'cross' is thrown with the boxer transferring weigh onto the front foot, the body rotation and weight transfer giving the right cross it's power."  
While I agree with this action for proper execution of a the rear straight punch the very nature of rotating the body prevents the punch from 'crossing' the body.

Yeah it's a nit picky thing but really pounds my OCD buttons.


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## punisher73 (Nov 29, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Technically in boxing what many call the 'Cross' is a Rear Straight.There is a difference in the rear cross and the rear straight (also called a right punch or straight right) There is a vertical rear straight or a horizontal rear straight though today the horizontal is used predominantly. Mechanically both the rear straight and the rear cross are the same but the cross is thrown as the opponent throws a left jab. The rear straight 'crosses' over the opponent's jab hence the cross. If it doesn't cross the opponent's punch then it is a rear straight or a straight right.



You beat me to it.  Most use the terms "cross" and "straight" in boxing as if it is the same punch and it is not.  They are mechanically different.  The cross as more of an "arc" to it because it is going over the opponent's punch.

As to the "reverse punch" chambering at the waist and a boxer doesn't.  At some point, you should be punching from where your hands are in karate and not "chambering" your hand for no reason.  The chambering is a training tool and does have some application for grabbing/holding and pulling the opponent into a punch.  But, you should have your hands up no matter what.


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## Danny T (Nov 29, 2017)

punisher73 said:


> You beat me to it.  Most use the terms "cross" and "straight" in boxing as if it is the same punch and it is not.  They are mechanically different.  The cross as more of an "arc" to it because it is going over the opponent's punch.
> 
> As to the "reverse punch" chambering at the waist and a boxer doesn't.  At some point, you should be punching from where your hands are in karate and not "chambering" your hand for no reason.  The chambering is a training tool and does have some application for grabbing/holding and pulling the opponent into a punch.  But, you should have your hands up no matter what.


The hand should not be at the hip unless you are either putting something there (besides your hand) or removing something from that area (draw a weapon).


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