# Guns + Martial Arts...



## David4516 (Jun 9, 2004)

This is the first MA site I've seen with a firearms section. This suprised me because many martial artists I've met seem to think that guns are "unfair" and don't require "any skill". 

I've also met gun people who think that Martial Arts are dumb. They say things like "if you have a gun you can just shoot the bad guy, so why learn Karate/TKD/Kungfu/whatever?".

It is however my opinion that guns and the Martial arts are both important asepcts to self defense, and thus I carry a concealed handgun (yes I do have a CHL). I think that you'll never know what kind of situation you'll find yourself in and that the more tools you have to work with, the better. 

In fact I started learning a MA because I planned on carrying a gun. I didn't want to rely 100% upon the gun, because there are some times when I can't have it with me (like on my college campus). Also, if the only tool you've got is a hammer, all your problems will look like nails...

So I just wanted to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one on the face of the planet that is interested in both.


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## Tgace (Jun 9, 2004)

Fighting is fighting...a gun is just a tool like a sword, stick or sai.


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## KenpoTex (Jun 10, 2004)

David4516 said:
			
		

> It is however my opinion that guns and the Martial arts are both important asepcts to self defense, and thus I carry a concealed handgun (yes I do have a CHL). I think that you'll never know what kind of situation you'll find yourself in and that the more tools you have to work with, the better.


My sentiments exactly!



			
				David4516 said:
			
		

> Also, if the only tool you've got is a hammer, all your problems will look like nails...


If you hadn't used this quote, I would have.



			
				David4516 said:
			
		

> So I just wanted to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one on the face of the planet that is interested in both.


Far from it, in fact, I was a gun and knife enthusiast before I ever got involved in the M.A.'s.  Like Tgace said, Guns are just tools, as are knives or whatever, weapons just expand your options and capabilities.  There's nothing "unfair" or "unskilled" about it.


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## loki09789 (Jun 10, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Fighting is fighting...a gun is just a tool like a sword, stick or sai.


Any subject that you study to learn to employ a tool for 'combatives' application is a martial art as far as I am concerned.  People who really did and do use martial training for their profession generally try to stay on top of trends and adaptations (whether 'new' or just 'revisiting' an older idea that fits again) that will make their job easier and more efficient.

Hobbyiest/Enthusiasts will generally try to validate what they do and promote it over other options because they simply enjoy it first and find it practical second.

Keep training and staying with the times.  I doubt that you will be one of those people who ends up bringing a side kick to a gun fight.


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## lhommedieu (Jun 12, 2004)

The logicial progression for shooting a handgun as a martial art:

1.  Proper form (body mechanics of getting a sight-picture, drawing from a holster, holding a firearm that's already been drawn, etc.), practice in clearing malfunctions, etc. 

Leads to...

2.  Marksmanship, marksmanship, marksmanship...

Leads to...

3. Speed and accuracy while on the move, changing directions, changing levels, changing environments, "shoot - no shoot" decisions:  IDPA-type drills, etc.

Leads to...

4. Close-quarter drills using armor and simunitions against one or more "opponents."

Then there is the progression from handgun to shotgun (or carbine) to long-range rifle, etc. and the requisite progression (where appropriate) as outlined above.

At least, that's my take as a novice shooter interested in moving from Step 2 to Step 3....

Comments?

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Ceicei (Jun 12, 2004)

David4516 said:
			
		

> It is however my opinion that guns and the Martial arts are both important asepcts to self defense, and thus I carry a concealed handgun (yes I do have a CHL). I think that you'll never know what kind of situation you'll find yourself in and that the more tools you have to work with, the better.
> 
> In fact I started learning a MA because I planned on carrying a gun. I didn't want to rely 100% upon the gun, because there are some times when I can't have it with me.
> 
> So I just wanted to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one on the face of the planet that is interested in both.



Welcome!  

I agree with you, a gun is a tool.  It is a tool that may not always be with me depending on where and when.  I, too, have a concealed carry  permit from Utah.  

I have always been exposed to firearms, but my decision to carry a gun was long after I had already started studying martial arts.  I believe it was the American Kenpo founder, Mr. Ed Parker, who said, "These hands don't work from ten feet away."  

Martial arts and guns, in my opinion, do blend together.  What we learn to defend against, we can also learn to use for our own defense.

- Ceicei


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## David4516 (Jun 13, 2004)

thanks for the warm welcomes everyone  

I just wish I could practice with my handgun as often as I practice TKD... but the place I shoot is about an hour drive away, and is outdoors so I can only go durring the day and when the weather isn't super bad...

I could use the practice... I'm not such a good shot with a handgun. I grew up with guns but I spent most my time learning to shoot a rifle. I'm pretty good with long guns now, but for somebody thats been shooting since he was 6, I should be better with handguns...


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## Tgace (Jun 13, 2004)

David4516 said:
			
		

> thanks for the warm welcomes everyone
> 
> I just wish I could practice with my handgun as often as I practice TKD... but the place I shoot is about an hour drive away, and is outdoors so I can only go durring the day and when the weather isn't super bad...
> 
> I could use the practice... I'm not such a good shot with a handgun. I grew up with guns but I spent most my time learning to shoot a rifle. I'm pretty good with long guns now, but for somebody thats been shooting since he was 6, I should be better with handguns...


What are your weaknesses with the handgun? What results do you typically get from a range session? Groups not where you want them, no groups at all, speed, smoothness? Maybe you could get some training advise.


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## Baytor (Jun 17, 2004)

David4516 said:
			
		

> thanks for the warm welcomes everyone
> 
> I just wish I could practice with my handgun as often as I practice TKD... but the place I shoot is about an hour drive away, and is outdoors so I can only go durring the day and when the weather isn't super bad...
> 
> I could use the practice... I'm not such a good shot with a handgun. I grew up with guns but I spent most my time learning to shoot a rifle. I'm pretty good with long guns now, but for somebody thats been shooting since he was 6, I should be better with handguns...


I understand...I grew up on a farm and was also better with a rifle than a pistol.  The only thing you can do is train.  Incidentally, what do you carry?


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## MA-Caver (Jun 17, 2004)

Guns and Martial Arts? 


> "Guns! Why doesn't somebody take a .45 and BANG! Be done with it?" ~ Bruce Lee (from Enter The Dragon)


If this doesn't say that firearms and MA aren't symbionic I don't know what does. 
A tool, yes. Those who say aww a gun is just isn't fair, doesn't realize the potential for death in a real-life confrontation. Having as many tools as possible makes it a lot easier to build a house. Same with self-defense.


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## David4516 (Jun 17, 2004)

> What are your weaknesses with the handgun?


I seem to do alright at close range, but at any kind of distance my groups are pretty big... and I think I need to mess around with my sights because my gun doesn't seem to shoot to POA (point of aim)

Really I think I just need to spend more time at the range... and maybe tinker with my sights...



> Incidentally, what do you carry?


There are two pistols I carry...

The one I normally carry is a Makarov in 9X18. Thats the one where I think the sights might be a bit off. 

But other than the sights, I love this gun. It's very relialbe, never had a jam. And it's so simple that even I can take it apart and put it back together...

Another thing I like about the Mak is that it's thin... I've found that I don't like double stack pistols... they are just too thick for me...

My second gun is my cute little Beretta 950 "Jetfire" in .25 ACP

It's a great little pocket gun, but .25 is a pretty wimpy caliber so I carry the Mak more often. But when I need a smaller gun, or I'm in a hurry and don't have time to put on a holster, this little Beretta is great. I can just slip it into my pocket an be on my way...

It's also one of the few pocket guns out there that isn't DAO. I prefer DA/SA or SAO... mainly because I like a lighter trigger pull...

I carry both the Beretta and the Makarov with a round in the chamber, hammer down...


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## Tgace (Jun 17, 2004)

Go back to basics. Heres a good start...
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/23-35/fm23-35.htm
If your groups are wide, than its probably not sights. If the sights were off, but you were still employing good grip, stance and trigger control, you would have nice groups, just not where you want them.


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## Baytor (Jun 18, 2004)

Do you seem to "throw" rounds to a certain place?  If the "off" rounds are going about the same place, it could be something like looking over the sights or too much trigger finger, jerking the trigger, ect.


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## dearnis.com (Jun 18, 2004)

Think about renting something a bit easier to shoot at a range.  The Mak is a fun gun, but eastern bloc weapons are still, well, eastern block weapons, and  a pocket pistol is hard to learn on.....
If you are serious about becoming a better pistol shot think about buying a decent .22 (a full size gun, not a hide out).  The absence of recoil wil keep you from licking up bad habits, and the ammo is cheap enough that you will shoot as much as you need to.
Also try and get a bit of coaching, there are also target analysis charts that can suggest your errors based on where the shots seem to be falling.


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## stickaddict (Aug 22, 2004)

lhommedieu said:
			
		

> The logicial progression for shooting a handgun as a martial art:
> 
> 1. Proper form (body mechanics of getting a sight-picture, drawing from a holster, holding a firearm that's already been drawn, etc.), practice in clearing malfunctions, etc.
> 
> ...


  Steve, 
Besides the FIST-FIRE system (TSA, Surrey VA,) by Middleburroughs are
you aware of any other "firearm-based" martial arts? As a FMA junkie I
am always interested in weapons-based arts of any kind.
  Sounds like tou have the skill progression down about right...
  I'd like to point out that right when you start working on outflanking
and movement skills it's time to find a Largo Mano Arnis teacher to 
get your impact weapons/blades game online


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 22, 2004)

This all falls into my five year plan to build a Combat or Shooting Ranch here in Kansas just for this purpose. Martial Arts Training combined with Handgun and Shotgun marksmenship training.


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## AnimEdge (Aug 24, 2004)

I live in Texas and firearms in general is a big thing here, weather some one is for them or agenst them. Everyone in my family who is over the age of 21(and me once i become 21) all own a concelment licence and is even one of the reasons we live here is the licence and we carry a firearm with us everywhere we go and there all over the house, we are not hunters, we just love the sport, we all belong to the biggest gun club in texas and me and my dad are board members of this club, me being the youngest board member ever.

 Now i am well skilled with a gun i won many contests when i entered into them(i havnt in awail) manly in pistols. I believe marksmanship should be consedered a actial Martial Art. Sure it is easy to pick up any gun point and shoot somebody. Just like it is easy to go up and punch some body in the throat(exept the whole distance and skill thing) both are capable of killing someone and both reletivly easy to do. I think firearms should be consedered a MA of the West.

 Just like with any MA you only get out of it what you put into it.
 But like i said using a firearm is just like swinging a knife or sword or stick anyone can do it but its doing it correctly that is what makes it a MA.

 Now you guys shoudl go to a EPSIC(its probly mispelled) match and watch it and tell me that isnt a art.

 It is like a obstical course, you have spacific targets and targets not to shoot all done in a spacific "Technique". You must draw the weapon, witch might be in a locked box you must open, or in some unconvent place or even in your hoslter if you draw it to slow depending on the match you could be "dead". You must draw it and engage the targets, shoot one and another jumps out behind a "hostage" or even swings between two "Hostages" you must hit this target at just the right time, if you miss you killed a by-standered then run down a field wail hiting more hidden targets to then dive into a prone or laying down position and shoot more without hitting hostages.

 Doing that requares aim and skills with a firearm just like weilding a sword would or doing TKD. Sure it might not ever happen but when was the last time in real life you ever been attack by ninjas. So yes firearms shoudl be consedered a martial art.

 A Firearm shoudl be viewed as a tool just like a sword to be used as it was created for, now becouse of its general ease of use and that firearms are common and good at what they do they are viewed bad by the public and even Martial Artists but its all in why and how it was used if i was going into a fight with a large group of people or even when im at a area that i know if i was to fight some one that i know it would be for my life i was fighting for one of the weapons i would have with me is a gun becouse i am aware that it is my life i am fighting for even if my enemy does not have a gun and so any advantage i could have i would take.

 but if it was a "after-school" fight or a pre-aranged fight with some one in the area or down the street in witch i am pretty sure it wont be to the death fight i would not even conseder to bring a gun, my family who like i said is big on guns we are also big on fair fights i had to fight a kid down the street when i was in 9th grade becouse he punched his sister in the face front of  everyone in the neiborhood and i called him a wuss for doing it so he challanged me, it 2 stand-offs later to where he had a group of black(no offence to anyone) about 5 basketball player friends with him only then whould he actually fight me becouse i was well outnumbered, knowing i was going to get jumped i stood my ground and fought anyways becouse i knew at lest hoped that non of them had weapons of any kind. 

 but anyways back to my point A Gun should be consedered a Tool just like a sword and i think that Marksmanship or the correct use of a gun should be viewed as a Martial Art just like the use of a sword is.


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## dearnis.com (Aug 25, 2004)

> Now you guys shoudl go to a EPSIC(its probly mispelled) match and watch it and tell me that isnt a art.



IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation)actually (just nit-picking; good post).

For those interested IDPA competition should fit nicely with MA training.  IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association) requires short courses of fire, non-tricked out carry handguns, and leather (or kydex) must be on an approved list.
IPSC shooting is a bit out of the realm of us common folk; it has evolved into a very equipment oriented sport.  (not knocking the skill it takes to run the equipment; think of it as the difference between local drag, dirt track, or autocross races where you CAN win with a daily driver versus NASCAR or Indy class racing, where even if you had the $$ for the equipment yo dont have the time and resources to learn to use it to full potential).

Check out local shooting clubs as well.  Competition has its place as a training tool in all the arts.


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## AnimEdge (Aug 25, 2004)

I figured it was probly mispelled  its been awail sence i shot at one, most of the people who shoot at ours trys to keep there firearms ironsited so they dont become dependent on scopes but they only do this untill they become to old to use them well


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## Silat Student (Sep 5, 2004)

That fairness thing always makes me laugh, my definition of fairness involves my leaving a fight with no cuts, scrapes or bruises of any kind. Anything less than that is unfair.


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## AnimEdge (Sep 5, 2004)

Battle-Scars  my view of fair-ness is two people fighting unarmed hand to hand not to the death


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## kelly keltner (Sep 5, 2004)

for some good people to train with try tftt, tactical firearms training team. they are out of S.Calif. I know guys who have attended their classes and recommend them highly. I believe they have a website but I am not sure of the address.


kelly


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## Gaidheal (Oct 4, 2004)

I consider fire-arms usage a martial art, by definition.  Though I dislike the 'art' idea in MA at all and tend to use the term 'combatives' or 'close quarters combat training / tactical engagement training' (CQBT / TacEng Training).  Whatever you call it though, it amounts to the same thing: relatively close range encounters with opponents who mean to cause serious bodily harm or death to you or others you intend to protect.  In this context it makes sense to train with guns, sticks, knives, swords, chairs, ashtrays... you get my point, I am sure ;¬)

So, in short, you are far from alone in your view that fire-arms complement unarmed techniques and also you probably already realize that there is a whole more than either, such as the overal tactical skills and situational awareness development.

Many here think as you do, myself included and to my knowledge, Tgace, whom I seem to keep having long discussions with on topics related to this sort of thing.

For a laugh:

"If someone comes up to me and threatens me I am just going to pull my gun and shoot the [expletive] in the face."

"No matter how well trained someone is there is no way they'd be able to shoot me with the level of [Martial Art Training] I have now."

Both real quotes I had said to me by people I am acquainted with.  So yes, there is an awful lot of ignorant people out there not only risking their own lives but potentially that of others by perpetuating such myths.  Needless to say I disabused both of their false ideas.  Sadly the second guy still did not want to believe and continues to maintain his position.  The first guy trains in a martial art now.

John


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## Tgace (Oct 4, 2004)

John,

That last part about the shooter taking MA made me think. This is IMHO now...I tend to see more shooters accepting of MA training than the other way around. I have seen some of the "Id just shoot him" stuff yes, but it seems like Ive seen more reasons given by MArtists not to learn firearms skills.


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## Gaidheal (Oct 4, 2004)

Sadly, that is my experience too.  Especially from those with a lot of time invested in a traditional 'art'.  I suspect it is mental conditiong, i.e. they really have bought into some of the mystical 'I am untouchable, I am one with nature, I am energy' etc, etc, stuff that certain schools of certain styles seem to encourage.  The 'gun guy' saw how easy and effective what I did to him was and said "Damn!  I want to learn how to do that!".  The MA guy said, "Yeah, but if it was for real, I move quicker."  Hmmm.  Sure he would! LOL  All he needs to do is tell his body "This is for real!" and suddenly it will all move quicker.. of course to a point he is right, thanks to Adrenaline (tm) the wonder-drug.. but even with the adrenaline going you can't outrun a bullet.

John


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## Tgace (Oct 4, 2004)

The "Nike defense" is valid, and works most of the time, but is based on the shooter standing still and blasting away at a moving target. Seen cases where the shooter ran right behind the victim firing away. Everything is situational huh?


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## Gaidheal (Oct 4, 2004)

Oh entirely situational.  It was me 'shooting' (plastic BBs) I don't stand still if a target is running away.  I chased him and put about 4 or 5 plastic BBs into his back.  I figured that made the point (given the pathetic accuracy and ROF [slide has to be racked for each round] of my toy gun).  It appears it was lost on him.  My only worry is that this guy is now a Black Belt in his system and I fear he will instill the same silly prejudices in colour belts who train with him.

John


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