# Active shooter self defense



## vic (Jun 10, 2022)

If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort? How can these moves be improved?


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2022)

It is almost rugby mauling.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 10, 2022)

As with all Gun type work. 
Check it with water guns and super soakers. 
If you get wet you are shot.


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## lklawson (Jun 10, 2022)

vic said:


> If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort?


Within the *extremely* limited context of what he is proposing, they kinda sorta "work." ...for him.



vic said:


> How can these moves be improved?


Getting control of the weapon-bearing limb is a fine idea.  It's as old as cave-man and clubs.  There might be better ways to do so, but in the single-context entry that he's showing that will usually work for a second or two and allows a person to engage some of their strongest muscles.  But it *is* 100% strength based.  If the person with the weapon is stronger, the person attempting to take control of the weapon-bearing limb in this way is going to have a much harder time.

I also have a problem with his takedown.  Look, the dude is, literally, a head taller than either of his assistants and he significantly out-masses the person he's taking down.  His takedown is 100% a mass-based takedown.  Ask that small woman assistant to try that takedown against him.  If he's actually resisting, then it ain't happening.  He talks about the takedown breaking arms and stuff.  Well, for him dropping his 200+ lbs weight on a 175 lb person, maybe.  That woman isn't going to break anyone arms but a toddler if she tries this.

How to improve it?  I hate it when I have to agree with Drop Bear, but honestly, use leverage properly.  In this very narrow context that the original video is presenting, this is a grappling issue.  And I'm not sure how much grappling the gent in the original video really knows.

I get that he wants it to be simple.  OK.  You know what's simple?  Grab that 6 lb textbook and smash it into the back of the assailant's head with all your strength.  Even that 120 lb woman in the video can do that.  Yes, she can because the gent in the video is already talking about this in the context of an Ambush.  The attacker is focused on the intended victim and the "rescuer" is ambushing from the side.  Don't fixate on the weapon.  It's just a thing.  Take away the attacker's ability to use it; Smash his freaking head in with the Algebra II textbook.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## mograph (Jun 10, 2022)

So ... in the first video, the woman is just there to be the _victim_? The _target_? Oh, FFS. For this guy to have any credibility, he should let the woman demonstrate the technique on the shooter. Otherwise, it's just a big guy showing off.

(I'm all for the textbook-as-weapon technique, but I prefer Swokowski's Calculus. Heavy.)


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## lklawson (Jun 10, 2022)

mograph said:


> So ... in the first video, the woman is just there to be the _victim_? The _target_?


Yes.



mograph said:


> Oh, FFS. For this guy to have any credibility, he should let the woman demonstrate the technique on the shooter.


Why?  The technique being taught is a side ambush, not a defense.  The person doing the technique attacks the person while his attention is on some other victim.



mograph said:


> Otherwise, it's just a big guy showing off.


I don't think that's it at all.  The issues are that he's limited it down to a pretty narrow set of circumstances and he's using technique that won't work as well for people who aren't strong and larger than the opponent.



mograph said:


> (I'm all for the textbook-as-weapon technique, but I prefer Swokowski's Calculus. Heavy.)


And, well, it's calc.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2022)

mograph said:


> So ... in the first video, the woman is just there to be the _victim_? The _target_? Oh, FFS. For this guy to have any credibility, he should let the woman demonstrate the technique on the shooter. Otherwise, it's just a big guy showing off.
> 
> (I'm all for the textbook-as-weapon technique, but I prefer Swokowski's Calculus. Heavy.)



Which going back to the rugby analogy. I would assume everyone just dog piles the guy.

Hoping that you change the dynamics from everyone gets shot to mabye a few less get shot.


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## lklawson (Jun 10, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Which going back to the rugby analogy. I would assume everyone just dog piles the guy.


A class full of 8-year olds?  I wouldn't expect them to be aware enough.  Heck, an office full of grown adults and I would still doubt they'd dogpile the downed murderer.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2022)

lklawson said:


> A class full of 8-year olds?  I wouldn't expect them to be aware enough.  Heck, an office full of grown adults and I would still doubt they'd dogpile the downed murderer.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Yeah. But you can't say something won't work. You need to say something will work better. 

And by the time Mr gun has burst in to the room. You are running out of options. 

And I kind of recently pulled this off on a dude with a bow and arrow in a shopping centre.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2022)

It is the self defence version of CPR. You are already dead so try this thing.


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## lklawson (Jun 10, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But you can't say something won't work. You need to say something will work better.


Sure I can. Just because I know something doesn't work doesn't necessarily mean I have to know that something else will. You don't have to know how to build an atomic bomb to know that you can't use asphalt as the fissile material. It won't work.




drop bear said:


> And by the time Mr gun has burst in to the room. You are running out of options.


Doing "something" is not always better than doing nothing. If the "something" makes matters worse then doing "something" isn't better. Throwing gasoline on a fire is doing "something" but it sure as heck won't put out the fire.

But, as I've already stated, the technique that the gentleman in the video shows can work under certain limits of circumstances, particularly for him or if the person is larger, stronger, and has the element of surprise. If someone is much smaller and less strong then they're going to have a lot of trouble making this one work.

And, I did agree with you that using leverage in the proper way can actually affect a better outcome. The video you posted is one example but there are other leverage options as well.




drop bear said:


> And I kind of recently pulled this off on a dude with a bow and arrow in a shopping centre.


That's a good thing. Did you use the technique that the gentleman in the original video showed? Or did you use a leveraging technique that went against his joints, most likely against his thumb?


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Sure I can. Just because I know something doesn't work doesn't necessarily mean I have to know that something else will. You don't have to know how to build an atomic bomb to know that you can't use asphalt as the fissile material. It won't work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nah. I just ripped it out of his hands rugby style.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Sure I can. Just because I know something doesn't work doesn't necessarily mean I have to know that something else will. You don't have to know how to build an atomic bomb to know that you can't use asphalt as the fissile material. It won't work.



Yeah. But in this case it means it is the best possible option so far. Regardless whether adults or 8 year olds can pull it off very successfully.


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## jks9199 (Jun 10, 2022)

lklawson said:


> And, well, it's calc.


Which causes enough tears on its own...

Unarmed against a gun, even armed against a gun...  fighting is a last resort option.  Rich Parsons's comment about testing with squirt guns, paintball guns, or Airsoft-type stuff is a good idea.


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## O'Malley (Jun 10, 2022)

Airsoft might get you injured, though.


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## Argus (Jun 10, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Airsoft might get you injured, though.


Wear goggles. Also cut away the trigger guard.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2022)

Argus said:


> Wear goggles. Also cut away the trigger guard.



They do it. It's called gun games or something.


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## Argus (Jun 10, 2022)

drop bear said:


> They do it. It's called gun games or something.


You mean regular force on force airsoft games?

I've done it. Many might laugh because it's super nerdy, and Airsoft guns are obviously nothing like real guns, but I found that it really does validate a lot of what I learned with regards to actual gun fights.


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## drop bear (Jun 11, 2022)

Argus said:


> You mean regular force on force airsoft games?
> 
> I've done it. Many might laugh because it's super nerdy, and Airsoft guns are obviously nothing like real guns, but I found that it really does validate a lot of what I learned with regards to actual gun fights.



Almost. These are simunitions which are the totally not nerdy form of airsoft because tactical. 

But they also allow contact. So you can grab the guy and man handle him.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Almost. These are simunitions which are the totally not nerdy form of airsoft because tactical.
> 
> But they also allow contact. So you can grab the guy and man handle him.


Almost any kind of simulation ammo (even paintballs from guns that don’t operate much like real guns) will change how folks view their defensive approach to guns. Allow contact, and you get a much better simulation than most of us got when training “disarms”.


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## drop bear (Jun 11, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Almost any kind of simulation ammo (even paintballs from guns that don’t operate much like real guns) will change how folks view their defensive approach to guns. Allow contact, and you get a much better simulation than most of us got when training “disarms”.



Yeah. I think being able to haul of and punch people changes the dynamics a bit


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## CatherineSSingleton (Jun 14, 2022)

These are good self defence techniques.


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## lklawson (Jun 14, 2022)

CatherineSSingleton said:


> These are good self defence techniques.


They're not intended as "self defense" and aren't presented as such.


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## wab25 (Jun 14, 2022)

I am with everyone else here... I would like to see the little guy use these on the big guy... But, there are some even bigger issues here. 

First, this all presupposes that you can get that close to the guy with the gun in the first place. Getting to that position will take much more skill than any technique done from that position. Or, you could get lucky, and just end up there when the guy starts shooting. 

Try this (not really...) find someone that shoots at a range regularly... find them at a time out side the range, when they are not expecting it and fire a gun next to them. Watch their reaction. Watch the reaction of people who are unfamiliar with shooting when a gun is unexpectedly fired next to them. Trying to control the initial surprise and panic, and then choose to attack the guy who shot the gun will be beyond most people. Especially if the guy continues to shoot. 

Its one thing to do a drill... its another to do the drill when you are not expecting to do it, with real guns... its quite another thing to do when its not a drill. 

To be fair, all gun disarm techniques suffer from this same thing. We always discuss getting off line (unless you study krav...) controlling the weapon, controlling the other guy, leverage, grips.... But we rarely address the mindset needed. We rarely address how to overcome the surprise and shock. This is why I am not a fan of teaching weapons disarms to new students... we give them this false sense that they can handle a weapon situation, because they did it 10 times with a willing partner, who wanted them to succeed. 

If you end up in the position this video starts from... the biggest issue is: can you enter into combat? Can you flip the switch and be brutal enough, fast enough? If you can do that, it does not matter whether you use this technique, a double leg take down, O'goshi or a spin kick to the head.... they will mostly likely work... heck you could football tackle the guy...


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## lklawson (Jun 14, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I am with everyone else here... I would like to see the little guy use these on the big guy... But, there are some even bigger issues here.
> 
> First, this all presupposes that you can get that close to the guy with the gun in the first place. Getting to that position will take much more skill than any technique done from that position. Or, you could get lucky, and just end up there when the guy starts shooting.


The video starts off by saying that the murderer is busy aiming at some 3rd party when the defender comes in from the side, in some sort of ambush type context.  I think they are presupposing that the murderer has tunnel-vision on the next victim and isn't capable of noticing someone moving in from the side.

The immediate effects of adrenal dump stress on perception are fairly well understood at this point and, to be fair, tunnel-vision is one of them so there *might* be *some* validity to this assumption.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## auntlisa1103 (Jun 14, 2022)

The founding GM of my school taught that a man with a gun is a 100th degree black belt.

Honestly, if there’s nowhere to hide, play dead and pray. MA training doesn’t make us infallible.


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## lklawson (Jun 14, 2022)

auntlisa1103 said:


> Honestly, if there’s nowhere to hide, play dead and pray. MA training doesn’t make us infallible.


Doesn't work.  History, studies, and stats all indicate that trying to play dead just gets you shot.

What does work?  Cover, concealment, and movement.

Rules for a Gunfight:

Move to cover
If cover isn't available move to concealment
If concealment isn't available keep moving (moving reduces chances of being hit by 30+% and reduces chances of being hit in torso by 40%)
Standing still gets you shot - If you stand still in a gunfight you have an 85% chance of being shot, and 51% chance of being shot in the torso. - STAND, MOVE, OR SEEK COVER…WHAT WORKS IN A GUNFIGHT?



Gain distance 
Experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and 15 ft.
Further is - novices (naiveshooter.pdf) dramatically dropped of at 18 ft.  http://www.forcescience.org/articles/naiveshooter.pdf


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## wab25 (Jun 14, 2022)

lklawson said:


> I think they are presupposing that the murderer has tunnel-vision on the next victim and isn't capable of noticing someone moving in from the side.
> 
> The immediate effects of adrenal dump stress on perception are fairly well understood at this point and, to be fair, tunnel-vision is one of them so there *might* be *some* validity to this assumption.


For arguments sake, lets say these are true... the murderer has 100% tunnel vision and is incapable of noticing someone to the side. How many people are going to move in and attack the guy shooting the gun? We have seen law enforcement officers, in body armor and with their own guns... fail to respond, fail to move towards and engage the murderer with their own gun... This is not a knock on law enforcement, but pointing out that getting people to engage in real life and death combat is very different than doing drills. Knowing the statistics and being proficient in the best techniques is one thing, having the mindset to enter into life and death combat, where someone is most likely going to die, is a very different thing. Memorizing a kata, and using the right colored thing to hold your gi top closed, does not automatically prepare you to fight an armed opponent to the death, much less initiate that combat, when you could be running away to safety.


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## wab25 (Jun 14, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Rules for a Gunfight:


I was always told that the first rule of a gun fight is to bring a gun


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## Ji Yuu (Jun 14, 2022)

The only problem that I have with these techniques, which I think is worth mentioning, is the fact that the defender ends up on the ground with his arms pinned AND fully committed to restraining the attacker; you're at a stalemate. You've put yourself at a dead end and if there is an accomplice you didn't know about, it's over for you.


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## geezer (Jun 14, 2022)

wab25 said:


> ....when you could be running away to safety.


Nope. Consider these _facts_: If you are the only adult in a classroom full of kids and a shooter breaks in... 

You can't run away.
You can't hide. 
Begging, pleading, or crying and stalling for time won't work.

Furthermore, you nave no access to firearms, you may well be physically weaker than the attacker, You are caught by surprise, and you will have at best _minimal physical and mental training_.

So what do you recommend?


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## wab25 (Jun 14, 2022)

geezer said:


> Nope. Consider these _facts_: If you are the only adult in a classroom full of kids and a shooter breaks in...
> 
> You can't run away.
> You can't hide.
> ...


Are *ALL *active shooters in classrooms full of kids? 

What I do recommend is spending some amount of the training time addressing what it will take to enter into combat for real. Pretending that showing them one or two techniques will get them to engage is not sufficient. In fact, we can't even get *all *the trained law enforcement officers and *all *trained military to enter into combat. Showing people a technique that may or may not work, and requires certain circumstances to be presented for it to work at all and then assuming these same people will initiate combat when their life depends on it, is not enough. 

And if you are the only adult in the classroom full of kids, when the shooter runs in... you are not in the position required for these techniques to work... he already knows the teacher is in there, and already in front of the shooter...


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## lklawson (Jun 14, 2022)

wab25 said:


> How many people are going to move in and attack the guy shooting the gun?


Very few without training, but some, nevertheless.  Historically, we've seen people with enough pretense of mind to drape themselves over potential victims to act as a human shield (which didn't work) and some who rush the attacker (which sometimes works).  These are the exception rather than the rule, but there are a few here and there.



wab25 said:


> We have seen law enforcement officers, in body armor and with their own guns... fail to respond, fail to move towards and engage the murderer with their own gun...


Yes we have, but that is irrelevant to this discussion and could get the thread shutdown.



wab25 said:


> This is not a knock on law enforcement,


I have no problem calling out cowardice or bad behavior.  This thread my not be the right place for it, but don't think that doing so is an indictment against all LE.



wab25 said:


> but pointing out that getting people to engage in real life and death combat is very different than doing drills.


It is, but it isn't.  What we've found is that there is often a mental barrier to action. There are many things which can lower that barrier and, yes, doing drills does help lower that barrier.  Other things that lower the barrier include increasing levels of fake "realism" within the drills, discussing with others the proper responses, visualization and mental rehearsals, etc.  Basically your automatic responses, what I call "Robodroid" is stupid and will only follow programs you've fed it and ingrained to it.  The more programming you can feed to Robodroid which says to it, "I've been here before and this is the program I run" the less likely you will be to freeze and the more likely you will be to act.  These drills and scenarios should eventually ramp up to include some sort of mental "stress."

So, no, doing drills isn't the same as "real life" but, Robodroid is stupid and has trouble telling the difference between real life and fantasy when being programmed so, yes, drills can actually improve the likelihood of action.



wab25 said:


> Knowing the statistics and being proficient in the best techniques is one thing, having the mindset to enter into life and death combat, where someone is most likely going to die, is a very different thing. Memorizing a kata, and using the right colored thing to hold your gi top closed, does not automatically prepare you to fight an armed opponent to the death, much less initiate that combat, when you could be running away to safety.


"Mindset" isn't something that just happens and it's rarely "innate."  It's trained.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jun 14, 2022)

Ji Yuu said:


> The only problem that I have with these techniques, which I think is worth mentioning, is the fact that the defender ends up on the ground with his arms pinned AND fully committed to restraining the attacker; you're at a stalemate. You've put yourself at a dead end and if there is an accomplice you didn't know about, it's over for you.


And I doubt how well they would work.


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## Buka (Jun 14, 2022)

It's challenging to work in schools. It's challenging to wear a badge and a firearm. Doing both, harder still.

But the bottom line, in my opinion, protect everyone at all costs. Even with your life. That's what you're there for.


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## geezer (Jun 14, 2022)

I teach high school art and ceramics. I'm old ... not in great shape ...and smaller than average. And I have very minimal H2H vs firearms training. Not enough to depend on under the stress of a _real_ attack.

We keep our classroom doors locked when class is in session. The windows are covered. If there is a "lockdown" called, we double check the door,  shut off the lights, and get the kids down on the ground, quiet, and out of the line of fire from the windows and door. And we wait. _That's _our school's policy.

If an attacker does breach the door, I plan on being ready off to the side of the door with a big freakin' rolling pin. I figure I might get in one clean hit. Then keep hitting as long as I can. Maybe I can knock him down, or knock his weapon down, or just get shot and die  ...who knows. 

If the attacker goes down I always have a few big, physical kids in my class. 17-18 year-old football players and wrestlers. I can't put them in harms way. But if they _choose_ to dog pile and _incapacitate_ (beat the bloody tar out of?) an attacker. I can't stop them. And I've told them as much.  

BTW practicing with my escrima group, I've found that a simple downward strike from an ambush position at the side of an entryway seems to be the strongest, most instinctive, and most  reliable at knocking down an extended weapon and bashing the attacker in the head. Think along the lines of a Dog Brother's "caveman" strike or chopping wood. It might work. 

And yes, I know I might "die trying". Beats dying cowering behind my desk, I guess.


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## wab25 (Jun 14, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Yes we have, but that is irrelevant to this discussion and could get the thread shutdown.





lklawson said:


> I have no problem calling out cowardice or bad behavior. This thread my not be the right place for it, but don't think that doing so is an indictment against all LE.


My intent was not to get political or into topics that would shut down the thread. Nor was I calling anyone out as a coward or for bad behavior. I was trying to point out that law enforcement and military are still human beings and that even with all the training they get... sometimes the human part of them just freezes anyway. Rory Miller was doing a bunch of research on that years ago, and at the time was concluding that its very hard to tell whether you are going fight or freeze in the next combat situation... even if you fought the last time, you could still freeze this time. (still trying to find those references... I read them years ago)



lklawson said:


> It is, but it isn't. What we've found is that there is often a mental barrier to action. There are many things which can lower that barrier and, yes, doing drills does help lower that barrier. Other things that lower the barrier include increasing levels of fake "realism" within the drills, discussing with others the proper responses, visualization and mental rehearsals, etc. Basically your automatic responses, what I call "Robodroid" is stupid and will only follow programs you've fed it and ingrained to it. The more programming you can feed to Robodroid which says to it, "I've been here before and this is the program I run" the less likely you will be to freeze and the more likely you will be to act. These drills and scenarios should eventually ramp up to include some sort of mental "stress."
> 
> So, no, doing drills isn't the same as "real life" but, Robodroid is stupid and has trouble telling the difference between real life and fantasy when being programmed so, yes, drills can actually improve the likelihood of action.


Yes, I agree. This is what I am talking about, doing things to specifically lower that barrier.



lklawson said:


> "Mindset" isn't something that just happens and it's rarely "innate." It's trained.


This is what I am trying to get at. The "Mindset" and lowering the barrier to action are often left out or treated as an after thought. In my opinion, these are more important than teaching a specific technique. Teaching people how to lower that barrier, how to engage that "mindset" and how to engage Robodroid will go further. Yes, you have to put programs into Robodroid... But you can put programs in, in ways that lower the barrier to action and that help train the mindset.


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## geezer (Jun 14, 2022)

geezer said:


> I teach high school art and ceramics. I'm old ... not in great shape ...and smaller than average. And I have very minimal H2H vs firearms training. Not enough to depend on under the stress of a _real_ attack.
> 
> We keep our classroom doors locked when class is in session. The windows are covered. If there is a "lockdown" called, we double check the door,  shut off the lights, and get the kids down on the ground, quiet, and out of the line of fire from the windows and door. And we wait. _That's _our school's policy.
> 
> ...


BTW that rolling pin is like 24+ inches long and massive. Also, the baseball/softball payers check their equipment bags behind my desk, so I can almost always get ahold of a bat. That's useful.


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## lklawson (Jun 14, 2022)

wab25 said:


> This is what I am trying to get at. The "Mindset" and lowering the barrier to action are often left out or treated as an after thought. In my opinion, these are more important than teaching a specific technique. Teaching people how to lower that barrier, how to engage that "mindset" and how to engage Robodroid will go further. Yes, you have to put programs into Robodroid... But you can put programs in, in ways that lower the barrier to action and that help train the mindset.


Agreed.

You can also program Robodroid with stuff that just doesn't actually work.  He's dumb.  He doesn't know better.  He just runs programs.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Buka (Jun 14, 2022)

What I’ve found from working in the violence industry - that's what I call it - is there’s one thing that works better for all concerned. The ability, through training (and perhaps from individual personality) to say to yourself GO.

And then going, immediately, consequences be damned. Easy to say, sure. And easy to do once you’ve done it just one time.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 14, 2022)

geezer said:


> Nope. Consider these _facts_: If you are the only adult in a classroom full of kids and a shooter breaks in...
> 
> You can't run away.
> You can't hide.
> ...



In theater Foyer entrance, I asked the guy yo go outside as we were locking up after the concert. (* The old theater had been changed to a concert location *). 
He pulled a small revolver from his hoodie and I raised my hands and said "you win". 
He asked "What did you say?"
I stepped closer and said "You Win" - Just a little louder. 
He said "What?!?"

I said in a normal voice now within range of him , "You Win, what do you want?" 
Out of the corner of my eyes I saw police outside and out of his view. So I choose not to act. 
I stepped back and asked again "What do you want?" 

He said, "You are crazy, pocketed the pistol and walked out into an ambush to be tackled. 

This assumes that the person was not there to assassinate me directly. 
It assumes that they are not there just to create a body count. 
I created a diversion and engaged them with words that they were in charge. 
(* Yes it did happen *)

Now I know what the next question will be . What do you do if they are there for a body count or to kill me directly. 
The Assassination is the most difficult as they are there for a reason and you are the target, and most likely the first person shot is either the person that notices the firearm or their target. 
In this case - Don't be a *insert derogatory descriptor here*. 

For the body count, it all depends. It really does. 
If you can attack from the side great. 

Now to the classroom. 
What is the fire escape route when the fire is right outside the door? 
is it out a window? Or is it barricade and hope they get to you before the smoke does. 
Assume there is multiple exits not into the same hallway. 

Take the alternate exit. Call for the children to line up for the fire drill. 
Have them exit the building - via door or window and check the room, and then leave. 
This builds upon an already established and usually practiced a couple of times a year drill. 

If no way to exit, then barricade the door. Figure a way to wedge it shut and or prohibit the door from opening with a chair or something else. 

It is difficult. I do not see a 100% way to resolve this issue. 
To get further into more details could lead to a post being called political and I am not trying to bait anyone into doing so. 
So let us keep it to these details for now. 

Not the best, just my best at the moment.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 14, 2022)

geezer said:


> I teach high school art and ceramics. I'm old ... not in great shape ...and smaller than average. And I have very minimal H2H vs firearms training. Not enough to depend on under the stress of a _real_ attack.
> 
> We keep our classroom doors locked when class is in session. The windows are covered. If there is a "lockdown" called, we double check the door,  shut off the lights, and get the kids down on the ground, quiet, and out of the line of fire from the windows and door. And we wait. _That's _our school's policy.
> 
> ...



Not a bad plan - Having a plan is the first step 

I agree with you plan for the caveman or downward strike. 
it is a gross motor skill and we learn and use it in our first tantrums as we pound hammer fists on the floor or the person trying to tell us no. 

The Black out windows and only one point of entrance does limit the responses. 
Besides the lock, can you wedge the door or rig the handle to it cannot turn or be pulled open? 
This mechanical style additional barricade can make it difficult for the attacker and they might move on to the next room. 
** Assuming if you find a good solution for this you could share it ** 

And then the bad guy has to keep moving until they find a first responder.


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## MR. SERNA (Jun 14, 2022)

vic said:


> If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort? How can these moves be improved?


I applaud the attempt to show a plausible combative reaction to an active shooter scenario. Unfortunately this scenario will be effective at a 2% success rate.

In order to level the playing field we the people must understand without question what is required to succeed and survive and live.

What we do know that works:

1. Armed guards at all federal banks who are trained and ready to protect the money.

2. Armed and trained personnel who protect politicians and those who require life or death level of protection.

Here are two proven examples of what is required to protect our most valuable assets in society.

Are children attend schools, these schools fall under state and federal building guidelines for protection and safeguards of the students who attend. And as such it is the state and federal governments responsibility to take active measures to protect and serve.

Our most precious resource is our children. So it is imperative that we as a society act in accordance with what works and what is proven.

In my mind as an accomplished martial artist who has seen and experienced combat,  I am in aghast the sheer negligence and disdain


vic said:


> If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort? How can these moves be improved?


A great attempt to offer a plausible method of defense. Unfortunately the success rate is 2%.

Better to employ proven methods of self defense that has been around for a hundred years and is still utilized in these modern times.

What we know that works.

1. At all Federal banks armed and trained guards protect the money.

2. All our politicians to include high profile professionals and other people utilize armed and trained professionals who protect and serve.

In order to protect our most valuable resource OUR CHILDREN we as a society need to initiate these time tested and proven protection methods for our children. 

Schools are state and federal buildings, and as such the government has a responsibility to protect and serve the students.

Mr. Serna


----------



## Johnkungfu (Jun 14, 2022)

vic said:


> If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort? How can these moves be improved?


Really nowhere to hide unpredictable situation requires a way from distance. Fire alarms. Mass throwing of objects distraction and counterattacks from multiple directions. Depends on thier weapon and training. Usually frantic and no aim with intent of getting attention. Blind firing etc. Hard not to just run if you can i would be scared. But i know i need to act


----------



## Olde Phart (Jun 14, 2022)

I think the problem is with what people think of their style of martial arts.  There is this running argument about which style is best for self-defense; which is better for street fighting; how to stop an attack in 5 seconds; and on and on.  This is a *limited view* of a training form.  Not real life; not full speed; no adrenalin involved.  As many of the commenters in this thread have stated:  "What about . . ."; "Well if . . ."  In other words, there are so many things that can happen that it is really impossible to say, "This is the Way."  Unless you are a Mandalorian.  In my own training, I'm thinking about possible exceptions as we go thru the forms and techniques.  Great exercise . . . but I'm not going down any dark alleys voluntarily!


----------



## Buka (Jun 15, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> I applaud the attempt to show a plausible combative reaction to an active shooter scenario. Unfortunately this scenario will be effective at a 2% success rate.
> 
> In order to level the playing field we the people must understand without question what is required to succeed and survive and live.
> 
> ...


When you say "Federal banks" are you referring to the Federal Reserve banking system?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 15, 2022)

Buka said:


> When you say "Federal banks" are you referring to the Federal Reserve banking system?



I watched layer cake. It has less to do with armed guards and more to do with drug money is easy money.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jun 16, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> As with all Gun type work.
> Check it with water guns and super soakers.
> If you get wet you are shot.


 
That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers". 

That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.


----------



## lklawson (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".
> 
> That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.


Go on...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".
> 
> That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.


Seems like you misspelled "silly", since you can buy excellent replicas for a fraction of that price.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jun 16, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Seems like you misspelled "silly", since you can buy excellent replicas for a fraction of that price.



I was obviously talking about the rifles, but it seems that we're going to be trying real hard today right; so I better type like I'm under oath in a court of law or something, right?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I was obviously talking about the rifles, but it seems that we're going to be trying real hard today right; so I better type like I'm under oath in a court of law or something, right?


Still silly, since an overwhelming majority of firearm attacks are handguns.


----------



## wab25 (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".
> 
> That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.


Do these $250 replicas shoot anything... like an airsoft round or simunition round? It would be pretty amateurish to train with guns that can never shoot you... how do you know that you got off line in time or at all?

Do you take these $250 replicas and cut the trigger guards off?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".
> 
> That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.



I think that is a red herring. In the same vein as training in realistic environments or in street clothes.

It is not generally the game changer that it is sold to be.

More a marketing shtick.

I have a $400 realistic sort of airsoft pistol. But I am not playing keepings off with that. Because someone will either drop or break the thing.


----------



## lklawson (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I was obviously talking about the rifles, but it seems that we're going to be trying real hard today right; so I better type like I'm under oath in a court of law or something, right?



The standard in the firearms training community is Bluegun brand
Most attacks are actually made with a handgun and Bluegun Glocks hover round $50-$60
Even Bluegun AR's are under $200 https://www.opticsplanet.com/blue-training-guns-blue-training-guns-m4-standard-carry-hand.html 
Inert trainers do not "shoot" anything which is what was being proposed as an important part of the training recommendation when "water gun" was suggested.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jun 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think that is a red herring. In the same vein as training in realistic environments or in street clothes.
> 
> It is not generally the game changer that it is sold to be.
> 
> More a marketing shtick.



I kind of thought that too, until I trained at this 1 Krav gym that spent the money for these props. There were shotguns, AK's, AR, pistols, etc.  Prob. $3000 worth. This was when a real WASR AK semi-auto was only like $300.

It's very different grabbing at the hard plastic that's very close to the real thing, as it's not comfortable & hurts your hand the first few times. It's like getting punched in the face; the 1st few times is very alarming.  Toy plastic, "super soakers" are smooth, rounded to not hurt kids and shaped like a 1970's lazer gun.  And there's a lot of struggling & grip fighting with the weapon; that a toy wouldn't last a day.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jun 16, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Still silly, since an overwhelming majority of firearm attacks are handguns.



guess if you can't afford the $250 for the rifle, then go for the $50 handguns.


----------



## wab25 (Jun 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think that is a red herring. In the same vein as training in realistic environments or in street clothes.
> 
> It is not generally the game changer that it is sold to be.
> 
> ...


Airsoft guns, for me, was much the same as dummy guns, as they don't really hurt.... and you have to be careful not to break them. 

The biggest "game changer" was working with simunition guns. These are real guns that fire real rounds, but the round is paint instead of lead. The gun is the same size shape and weight, and operates exactly as a gun, as it is a gun. They use a lighter spring, because the round only has a primer and a little powder... but the guns are guns... and operate as such. You get the loud bang, the ejecting brass and if you get hit, there are no questions... it HURTS and leaves a welt, even through a Judo Gi. The gun can jam if you interrupt the slide and the slide will pinch you... its a real gun... shooting non-lethal ammo. 

That definitely ups the game a bit. You also get to learn who hesitates to shoot, because they don't want to hurt the other guy. Still not a "real on the street" type situation, but it is much closer than water, dummy guns or airsoft.


----------



## lklawson (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I kind of thought that too, until I trained at this 1 Krav gym that spent the money for these props. There were shotguns, AK's, AR, pistols, etc.  Prob. $3000 worth. This was when a real WASR AK semi-auto was only like $300.


If they paid $3,000 for a passel of inert trainers then they let themselves get ripped off 









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----------



## drop bear (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I kind of thought that too, until I trained at this 1 Krav gym that spent the money for these props. There were shotguns, AK's, AR, pistols, etc.  Prob. $3000 worth. This was when a real WASR AK semi-auto was only like $300.
> 
> It's very different grabbing at the hard plastic that's very close to the real thing, as it's not comfortable & hurts your hand the first few times. It's like getting punched in the face; the 1st few times is very alarming.  Toy plastic, "super soakers" are smooth, rounded to not hurt kids and shaped like a 1970's lazer gun.  And there's a lot of struggling & grip fighting with the weapon; that a toy wouldn't last a day.



The issue is you get busted up in a fight. The concrete scrapes your knees. The picatinny rails cut your hands to pieces, you punch people and break stuff.

But you can't really drill like that because either you can't train relentlessly. Or you start training stuff that may not work very well.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jun 16, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Do these $250 replicas shoot anything... like an airsoft round or simunition round? It would be pretty amateurish to train with guns that can never shoot you... how do you know that you got off line in time or at all?
> 
> Do you take these $250 replicas and cut the trigger guards off?



Dude, I would just use my real rifles b/c these things are expensive; but this was in a Lib State and right next to a Lib Art College where most of their paid members come from so I doubt that would fly.  

So whether you hear real "boom" or got sprayed with water, you'd still need to fight. 1 of the main point of these drills is to get the muscle memory down.  Even with your simunition rounds, you're still going to wear earplugs, are you not? So that would defeat that purpose for realism, significantly.

What's your better idea, using a water gun that looks like a 1970's lazerbeam instead?  Which was what I was arguing against.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Jun 16, 2022)

lklawson said:


> The standard in the firearms training community is Bluegun brand
> Most attacks are actually made with a handgun and Bluegun Glocks hover round $50-$60
> Even Bluegun AR's are under $200 https://www.opticsplanet.com/blue-training-guns-blue-training-guns-m4-standard-carry-hand.html
> Inert trainers do not "shoot" anything which is what was being proposed as an important part of the training recommendation when "water gun" was suggested.



They're $250 elsewhere and probably of a diff brand.  But I'm glad that you're here to find me the best prices for stuff. Can you get me some prices on where to buy a Diamond Cup? Some Kung-Fu master kicked me real hard & put a dent in mine  (he wasn't kidding when he said he only fought no rules & to the death).


----------



## drop bear (Jun 16, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Airsoft guns, for me, was much the same as dummy guns, as they don't really hurt.... and you have to be careful not to break them.
> 
> The biggest "game changer" was working with simunition guns. These are real guns that fire real rounds, but the round is paint instead of lead. The gun is the same size shape and weight, and operates exactly as a gun, as it is a gun. They use a lighter spring, because the round only has a primer and a little powder... but the guns are guns... and operate as such. You get the loud bang, the ejecting brass and if you get hit, there are no questions... it HURTS and leaves a welt, even through a Judo Gi. The gun can jam if you interrupt the slide and the slide will pinch you... its a real gun... shooting non-lethal ammo.
> 
> That definitely ups the game a bit. You also get to learn who hesitates to shoot, because they don't want to hurt the other guy. Still not a "real on the street" type situation, but it is much closer than water, dummy guns or airsoft.



This is an idea of what a gas blowback gellball pistol does.






You generally know when you have been shot by one inside a certain range.


----------



## lklawson (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> They're $250 elsewhere and probably of a diff brand.  But I'm glad that you're here to find me the best prices for stuff. Can you get me some prices on where to buy a Diamond Cup? Some Kung-Fu master kicked me real hard & put a dent in mine  (he wasn't kidding when he said he only fought no rules & to the death).


Why would anyone use anything but Bluegun for their inert trainers?  Bluegun is the gold standard in the firearms training community.  I think they may actually have an exclusive with Glock.


----------



## wab25 (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Dude, I would just use my real rifles b/c these things are expensive; but this was in a Lib State and right next to a Lib Art College where most of their paid members come from so I doubt that would fly.
> 
> So whether you hear real "boom" or got sprayed with water, you'd still need to fight. 1 of the main point of these drills is to get the muscle memory down.  Even with your simunition rounds, you're still going to wear earplugs, are you not? So that would defeat that purpose for realism, significantly.
> 
> What's your better idea, using a water gun that looks like a 1970's lazerbeam instead?  Which was what I was arguing against.


You were calling the other guy "amatuerish" because they did not use your fancy, expensive dummy gun. Now that someone else trains with a better replica, that also shoots... you are saying you don't need the "boom." So, the shape weight and feel are important but the sound, movement, operation and actually shooting are not???

And no, we did not wear ear protection. We wore safety googles and put our Gi back on because it hurt too much getting shot in a t shirt.

I think its important to use something strong enough to wrestle with. I think its also important to train with something that actually shoots, to make sure that your assumption of being offline in time, is correct. Getting used to the sudden loud noise is a good idea as well.

Additionally, I think its a good idea to bring in trained shooters to work with them. They hang on like their life depends on keeping the gun... totally changes the drill.

But just because someone else does not buy your $250 dummy gun, doesn't mean that they are amateurish.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> guess if you can't afford the $250 for the rifle, then go for the $50 handguns.


Guess if you get ripped off buying expensive fake guns, you have to rip off your students to recoup the loss. Of course, it's also possible they didn't get ripped off, but said they did to justify the their fees.


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## wab25 (Jun 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> This is an idea of what a gas blowback gellball pistol does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here are what simunition guns are:





Note that you can convert your real gun to fire simunition:


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Dude, I would just use my real rifles b/c these things are expensive;


This is the most idiotic thing I have seen suggested today.


----------



## Olde Phart (Jun 16, 2022)

Puh-leez.  Everyone let someone have the last word.  Quit this "But . . . But . . . But".


----------



## wab25 (Jun 16, 2022)

Olde Phart said:


> Puh-leez.  Everyone let someone have the last word.  Quit this "But . . . But . . . But".


Okay... You can have the last word...  I promise!


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 16, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> This is the most idiotic thing I have seen suggested today.


Almost makes it tempting to take him off ignore, just to read what he said.

Almost.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Almost makes it tempting to take him off ignore, just to read what he said.
> 
> Almost.


Just a suggestion that it's ok to use real firearms for training defense against firearms.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".
> 
> That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.


Many of us are amateurs (or at least very poorly paid professionals). If the tool works to improve training, who cares if it's a water gun?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I was obviously talking about the rifles, but it seems that we're going to be trying real hard today right; so I better type like I'm under oath in a court of law or something, right?


Maybe just type to communicate, rather than to mock.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Dude, I would just use my real rifles b/c these things are expensive; but this was in a Lib State and right next to a Lib Art College where most of their paid members come from so I doubt that would fly.
> 
> So whether you hear real "boom" or got sprayed with water, you'd still need to fight. 1 of the main point of these drills is to get the muscle memory down.  Even with your simunition rounds, you're still going to wear earplugs, are you not? So that would defeat that purpose for realism, significantly.
> 
> What's your better idea, using a water gun that looks like a 1970's lazerbeam instead?  Which was what I was arguing against.


I'd call a fast "nope" on that. No live firearms in training. Simunitions-adapted weapons are incapable of chambering a live round, and even then I would require a lot of double-checking, since the adapter is what precludes the live ammo.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 17, 2022)

Ah, nevermind. 🙂


----------



## wab25 (Jun 17, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe for him it is a good idea and we should encourage the practice and be supportive.


I get that this was meant as a joke... but this type of sentiment should never be expressed towards other people, even on the internet, even if we very much disagree with what they say, even if they are annoying. 

I would hate to be the last straw, when something goes wrong... I would hate to be any of the straws for that matter... we always blame the last straw, but its the cumulation of straws that did it.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's amateurish to train with "water guns and super soakers".
> 
> That's why good Krav gyms buy $250/ea. replicas of the real thing to feel the sense of fighting for the weapon; not toy water guns that break apart and can cut students after a few weeks.


If one can not Get WET from a slow Squirt gun, then yes invest in better tools .

I have found that just getting the cheap squirt guns and doing a few tests on techniques and people begin to understand the "risks".


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 17, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I get that this was meant as a joke... but this type of sentiment should never be expressed towards other people, even on the internet, even if we very much disagree with what they say, even if they are annoying.
> 
> I would hate to be the last straw, when something goes wrong... I would hate to be any of the straws for that matter... we always blame the last straw, but its the cumulation of straws that did it.


Yeah, probably right.  I edited my post.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 17, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Many of us are amateurs (or at least very poorly paid professionals). If the tool works to improve training, who cares if it's a water gun?



If you cannot beat a water gun, then one really needs to think about their technique.


----------



## Steve (Jun 17, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I get that this was meant as a joke... but this type of sentiment should never be expressed towards other people, even on the internet, even if we very much disagree with what they say, even if they are annoying.
> 
> I would hate to be the last straw, when something goes wrong... I would hate to be any of the straws for that matter... we always blame the last straw, but its the cumulation of straws that did it.


Thanks for posting this.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 27, 2022)

I question a lot of bare hand gun self-defense stuff.  As a person who has had to deal with that in real life, the best thing to do is to learn how to quickly get a read of the situation beyond, physically attacking the shooter.  

- If there's no place to run or hide then the gun is probably pointing at you.  
- If you are in a position to ambush then you are probably hiding.  
- If are close enough to "sucker punch" then the gun is most likely not pointing at you and there's an assumption that the attacker's attention is split.

Most non-law enforcement people who are involved in active shooter situations are the least likely to be physically fit enough to wrestle or grapple with someone. We are talking about 15 seconds best before their strength fails. This doesn't include the time at which a gun may be fired during while trying to take the gun.

Ahmaud Arbery wrestled with a shotgun for about 5 seconds before the first shot went off.  People think fighting is complex, unarmed combat against a gun is even more so.  A lot of things get complicated when bullets start flying.


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## MR. SERNA (Jun 28, 2022)

Buka said:


> When you say "Federal banks" are you referring to the Federal Reserve banking system?


Yes if you enter into a Federal Bank you will immediately see armed guards that are well trained and prepared.

More over if you enter into a firearm sales store there to you will see armed sales personnel well trained and prepared.

Mr. Serna


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> Yes if you enter into a Federal Bank you will immediately see armed guards that are well trained and prepared.
> 
> More over if you enter into a firearm sales store there to you will see armed sales personnel well trained and prepared.


How do you know how well trained or prepared they are?


----------



## MR. SERNA (Jun 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> How do you know how well trained or prepared they are?


Simply because their entire focus is to protect Governments money.  They are not there to protect the citizen customers. In the same way politicians body guards are solely focused on protection of their client, and not the citizens.

A great many of these professionals are military or prior military trained in the science of combat and protocol.

Mr. Serna


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> Simply because their entire focus is to protect Governments money.  They are not there to protect the citizen customers. In the same way politicians body guards are solely focused on protection of their client, and not the citizens.
> 
> A great many of these professionals are military or prior military trained in the science of combat and protocol.
> 
> Mr. Serna


So basically you assume they're "well trained and prepared." Gotcha.


----------



## lklawson (Jun 28, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> A great many of these professionals are military or prior military trained in the science of combat and protocol.


I think you might have some misconceptions.


----------



## MR. SERNA (Jun 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> So basically you assume they're "well trained and prepared." Gotcha.


Yes, my assumption has been tested and proved, by those in the past who believed they could test my assumption. As result they are no longer here to argue against my assumption.

As for me I do not wish to test my theory based on facts and data.

Mr. Serna


----------



## lklawson (Jun 28, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> Yes, my assumption has been tested and proved, by those in the past who believed they could test my assumption.


Huh?  Can you explain that?



MR. SERNA said:


> As result they are no longer here to argue against my assumption.


You killed people who disagreed with you?



MR. SERNA said:


> As for me I do not wish to test my theory based on facts and data.
> 
> Mr. Serna


You don't want to make friends with them, go to the range, and find out if they can shoot?  Well, ammo is expensive these days.


----------



## MR. SERNA (Jun 28, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Huh?  Can you explain that?
> 
> 
> You killed people who disagreed with you?
> ...


I agree, too expensive Lol.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jun 28, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> Yes, my assumption has been tested and proved, by those in the past who believed they could test my assumption. As result they are no longer here to argue against my assumption.
> 
> As for me I do not wish to test my theory based on facts and data.
> 
> Mr. Serna


Can someone provide an English translation? Or is this just gibberish?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Can someone provide an English translation? Or is this just gibberish?


I believe he's stating that those who have tried to attack federal reserve security guards (test his assumption) have failed and were killed as a result (no longer here to test the assumption anymore). Another interpretation would be no longer here just means in jail. 

He does not wish to test his theory, as he does not wish to rob a federal bank/fight their guards.


----------



## MR. SERNA (Jun 28, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I believe he's stating that those who have tried to attack federal reserve security guards (test his assumption) have failed and were killed as a result (no longer here to test the assumption anymore). Another interpretation would be no longer here just means in jail.
> 
> He does not wish to test his theory, as he does not wish to rob a federal bank/fight their guards.


Exactly.

In life we do good, and do bad. The preservation of life is paramount.

Understanding for some their intentions are to do bad for the sake of bad. 

Mr. Serna


----------



## Buka (Jun 29, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> Simply because their entire focus is to protect Governments money.  They are not there to protect the citizen customers. In the same way politicians body guards are solely focused on protection of their client, and not the citizens.
> 
> A great many of these professionals are military or prior military trained in the science of combat and protocol.
> 
> Mr. Serna


The Federal Reserve doesn't work that way. 

With the passing of the Patriots Act in Oct 2001, all Protection Department staff (guards) at the Federal Reserve, who were very well trained at that time, at least at the Fed in Boston, became Federal Law Enforcement Officers and all went to a Federal Academy for further training.

As for what they protect as a base line - they do not give two squats about the money, never have. Our attitude was, is and always will be, "If they try to get in the vaults, let them. We'll lock them in and deal with them at our leisure." 

Even though there was 126 Billion dollars in currency when I left there, nobody gave a damn. Our number one priority was to protect the employees, tenants and guests of the Federal Reserve. That's how we were trained, that's how everyone is trained at all the Federal Reserve Banks, system wide. Money is replaceable, human life is not. And if you tried to hurt any of our people or guests, that would be one quick mistake and very short lived. Condolences to your family.

As for it being a government bank, it is not. Perhaps the most unconstitutional entity in our country, it is a privately owned banking system (think Cartel) And it wields more power than anyone else, anywhere.

It's funny how money works. Them that have it, make the rules.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 29, 2022)




----------



## MR. SERNA (Jun 29, 2022)

Buka said:


> The Federal Reserve doesn't work that way.
> 
> With the passing of the Patriots Act in Oct 2001, all Protection Department staff (guards) at the Federal Reserve, who were very well trained at that time, at least at the Fed in Boston, became Federal Law Enforcement Officers and all went to a Federal Academy for further training.
> 
> ...


Thank you for fine forensic analysis of the new version of the the professionals who protect the federal banking system.

I hold my theory that if you enter into a Federal Bank to rob and take the money you will be stopped by leathel force.

In no way is my response to this thread a position of  disrespect to any professional who works in this industry. My response is my personal belief again based on facts and data.

Understanding the new protocols and processes are now in place allowing a criminal to walk in and take the money as long as they do not harm citizens does not change my theory.

Again thank you for your input. Often times in prior threads I see the infighting and set up arguments to negate any real conversation.

Had you participated in this thread revealing you disdain for my theory...

It would be a much better dialog for everyone involved.

Please accept my deepest sincere apology for clearly offending you.

Never my intention. 

Mr. Serna


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> I hold my theory that if you enter into a Federal Bank to rob and take the money you will be stopped by leathel force.



Highly doubtful.  You would probably be arrested.  Their authority does not extend to simply executing you, in response to an attempted robbery.  

If you escalate the situation by opening fire if you somehow managed to get a firearm into the building or some other thing, you may end up dead.  But simply for trying to rob the place, no, they wouldn’t use lethal force.  You would be arrested and prosecuted.


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## MR. SERNA (Jun 29, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Highly doubtful.  You would probably be arrested.  Their authority does not extend to simply executing you, in response to an attempted robbery.
> 
> If you escalate the situation by opening fire if you somehow managed to get a firearm into the building or some other thing, you may end up dead.  But simply for trying to rob the place, no, they wouldn’t use lethal force.  You would be arrested and prosecuted.


Yes, I agree. 

Mr.Serna


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## Buka (Jun 30, 2022)

MR. SERNA said:


> Thank you for fine forensic analysis of the new version of the the professionals who protect the federal banking system.
> 
> I hold my theory that if you enter into a Federal Bank to rob and take the money you will be stopped by leathel force.
> 
> ...


You in no way offended me, brother, not at all.

As far as anyone walking in and taking any money.....Custer had better odds. There has never been a successful robbery of a Federal Reserve Bank. It might be easy getting in the door, getting out is a whole different kettle of fish.


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## MR. SERNA (Jun 30, 2022)

Buka said:


> You in no way offended me, brother, not at all.
> 
> As far as anyone walking in and taking any money.....Custer had better odds. There has never been a successful robbery of a Federal Reserve Bank. It might be easy getting in the door, getting out is a whole different kettle of fish.


Agreed.

Our military and our professionals who work hard are all worth their salt.

Absolutely Custer had better odds..


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## drop bear (Jun 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


>



The interesting thing about Tim Kennedy is he would have an impressive resume if he was a RSBD guy.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

Libre Fighting on Instagram: "One more active shooter technique. This one is most effective in tighter confines where the shooter cannot create substantial distance if the initial rip fails to incapacitate the right arm.   #knifefighting #martialarts #librefighting #activeshootertraining #combatives"

Libre Fighting on Instagram: "A little more active shooter work. This time looking at what to do after the shooter is down.   #activeshootertraining #combatives #knifelife #librefighting #martialarts"

Lethal force tends to need to be met with lethal force.


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## O'Malley (Jul 26, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Libre Fighting on Instagram: "One more active shooter technique. This one is most effective in tighter confines where the shooter cannot create substantial distance if the initial rip fails to incapacitate the right arm.   #knifefighting #martialarts #librefighting #activeshootertraining #combatives"
> 
> Libre Fighting on Instagram: "A little more active shooter work. This time looking at what to do after the shooter is down.   #activeshootertraining #combatives #knifelife #librefighting #martialarts"
> 
> Lethal force tends to need to be met with lethal force.


Too long, didn't watch:

- Whoosh! Whoosh!

- Re-stab the groin.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Too long, didn't watch:
> 
> - Whoosh! Whoosh!
> 
> - Re-stab the groin.


Do you have ADHD?

Groin stabs are a thing, but I remember correctly, those are femoral artery stabs.


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## O'Malley (Jul 26, 2022)

Being a little prickly, aren't we?


GreenieMeanie said:


> Do you have ADHD?
> 
> Groin stabs are a thing, but I remember correctly, those are femoral artery stabs.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The interesting thing about Tim Kennedy is he would have an impressive resume if he was a RSBD guy.


......You....do realize that Sheedog Response is literally an RBSD firm, covering gunfighting as well?


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 26, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Being a little prickly, aren't we?


It's a IG video, not a lecture or recorded seminar. IG is literally designed to carry short videos--thus my question. 

As a general principle, it's not the most intellectually favorable practice to make opinions about content you're haven't and aren't willing to consume.


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## O'Malley (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> It's a IG video, not a lecture or recorded seminar. IG is literally designed to carry short videos--thus my question.
> 
> As a general principle, it's not the most intellectually favorable practice to make opinions about content you're haven't and aren't willing to consume.


Of course that's why you'd ask 

I had actually watched the videos (that's not what TLDW means). So:

The first drill relies on the assumption that the shooter will not react in any way after the first contact. If he retracts his arm, retreats or fights back by wrestling/striking the knife guy would be in serious danger. If one were to train this live (e.g. with a water gun) I'd expect there would be surprises. The "whoosh" sounds are a nice bonus.

I wouldn't know about the second one. Without context, it's not easy to imagine how you'd end up in a position where you have full control of the threat's upper body, but you'd need to kill him by cutting his arteries, and for some reason the gun is between his legs.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Of course that's why you'd ask
> 
> I had actually watched the videos (that's not what TLDW means). So:
> 
> ...


Well, the way they typically train this stuff in RBSD, whether you use knife, gun, hands, etc. is to prepare for follow-ups. You “take what is given.”

In in a gunfight, once typically isn’t enough. One of the things taught to deal with terrorists in situations like these, is to shoot them in the head twice, once on foot, once they hit the ground—just in case of an explosive vest.

The same applies to knives. You have to hit multiple vitals in succession.

They’re more training the need for follow ups and how to control on the ground, then a specific way it’ll go. In the video with handgun, the key thing is destroying their ability to fire the gun.

If you want to train using a real knife and a water gun, be my guest.

The video with the rifle is the second part of the instruction. I couldn’t find the rest. I won’t get into all the technique in writing—but what he’s teaching here, is basically what they’ve been teaching in the military for sentry take-downs with a knife since Fairbarn and Applegate.

The whoosh sounds are just exhaling, breathing control.


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## O'Malley (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Well, the way they typically train this stuff in RBSD, whether you use knife, gun, hands, etc. is to *prepare for follow-ups*. You “take what is given.”


By this, do you mean "continue taking pre-determined action (e.g. stabbing)" or "expect a reaction from the opponent and adapt to counter it"? If the latter, how do you train it?



> If you want to train using a real knife and a water gun, be my guest.



As you may know, some RBSD guys use shock knives to test their training safely.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> By this, do you mean "continue taking pre-determined action (e.g. stabbing)" or "expect a reaction from the opponent and adapt to counter it"? If the latter, how do you train it?
> 
> 
> 
> As you may know, some RBSD guys use shock knives to test their training safely.


The latter. It's just like in MMA, how you train combinations and set moves for chokes/holds. 

They do, it is good for hitting it home that they've been "Stabbed," but a cut-up limb is a cut-up limb, and you cannot ethically train precisely how that will go physiologically. You can however, do organic medium testing, and see how a given knife will preform against tissue.


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## O'Malley (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The latter. It's just like in MMA, how you train combinations and set moves for chokes/holds.
> 
> They do, it is good for hitting it home that they've been "Stabbed," but a cut-up limb is a cut-up limb, and you cannot ethically train precisely how that will go physiologically. You can however, do organic medium testing, and see how a given knife will preform against tissue.


In MMA, training is assessed in live settings (sparring/competition). Students apply what they've learned under conditions where the opponent effectively resists and can move freely without pre-agreed timing. The drills are also designed to develop skills that work in that environment. That is the fundamental difference between combat sports and most RBSD training and the reason videos such as that one are met with skepticism. Do the Libre guys train live and if so how?

The best performing knife is harmless if it doesn't land (or lands superficially) and hitting moving targets is difficult. Thus, I would not simply assume that I'd be able to deliver an incapacitating blow in that situation if I never trained in an environment where the guy holding the gun is allowed to have reflexes.


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> The latter. It's just like in MMA, how you train combinations and set moves for chokes/holds.
> 
> They do, it is good for hitting it home that they've been "Stabbed," but a cut-up limb is a cut-up limb, and you cannot ethically train precisely how that will go physiologically. You can however, do organic medium testing, and see how a given knife will preform against tissue.



You can ethically train with the bad guy moving around a bit though.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> In MMA, training is assessed in live settings (sparring/competition). Students apply what they've learned under conditions where the opponent effectively resists and can move freely without pre-agreed timing. The drills are also designed to develop skills that work in that environment. That is the fundamental difference between combat sports and most RBSD training and the reason videos such as that one are met with skepticism. Do the Libre guys train live and if so how?
> 
> The best performing knife is harmless if it doesn't land (or lands superficially) and hitting moving targets is difficult. Thus, I would not simply assume that I'd be able to deliver an incapacitating blow in that situation if I never trained in an environment where the guy holding the gun is allowed to have reflexes.


It's 3 ways, that I've seen. 

They basically train to have an aggressor go through the motions, so that the defender can work the technique. The goal in these drills isn't so much for the defender to work through resistance, but to develop muscle memory and recongnize when it's time to draw and attack--because in the streets/field, it's about who gets the drop first, no dueling. They use foam knives hardened with tape, to simulate the blade sinking into tissue, so as to allow contact, and a fencing mask for face protection.

Another way they do that, is exchanging combinations like in boxing, no aiming for the face. There's also "the blender drill," simulating a multiple attacker scenario, in which the defender must keep them at bay, line them up, and rip their hands off his arms. From what I understand, doing well in this drill is one of the requirements to achieve instructor status in their system.

Once students have gotten use to that, both parties put on fencing masks, and go at with the foam knives.

Of course, as stated, you cannot ethically precisely replicate the trauma from a slash or stab in training. Once you've been tapped in the relevant vital areas, it's considered the equivalent of a KO.

One of the great things about systems like piper and libre, is that they take feedback from both recorded altercations, and students (especially LEO and military) that have tried their methods in the field, and refine accordingly.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> In MMA, training is assessed in live settings (sparring/competition). Students apply what they've learned under conditions where the opponent effectively resists and can move freely without pre-agreed timing. The drills are also designed to develop skills that work in that environment. That is the fundamental difference between combat sports and most RBSD training and the reason videos such as that one are met with skepticism. Do the Libre guys train live and if so how?
> 
> The best performing knife is harmless if it doesn't land (or lands superficially) and hitting moving targets is difficult. Thus, I would not simply assume that I'd be able to deliver an incapacitating blow in that situation if I never trained in an environment where the guy holding the gun is allowed to have reflexes.


Not the best footage, but gives you a snapshot of both the sparring and drills.











This is basically the blender drill.


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## lklawson (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Too long, didn't watch:
> 
> - Whoosh! Whoosh!
> 
> - Re-stab the groin.


It's like 30 seconds or so.  You got ADHD or something?


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## lklawson (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Libre Fighting on Instagram: "One more active shooter technique. This one is most effective in tighter confines where the shooter cannot create substantial distance if the initial rip fails to incapacitate the right arm.   #knifefighting #martialarts #librefighting #activeshootertraining #combatives"
> 
> Libre Fighting on Instagram: "A little more active shooter work. This time looking at what to do after the shooter is down.   #activeshootertraining #combatives #knifelife #librefighting #martialarts"
> 
> Lethal force tends to need to be met with lethal force.


I agree that cutting the tendons on the primary weapon bearing limb would be effective.  The rest of it is just over-focus on "I should do something with this knife I have in my hand."


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## lklawson (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> I had actually watched the videos (that's not what TLDW means). So:


TLDW = "Too Long, Didn't Watch."  It is a spinoff from TLDR, which means, "Too Long, Didn't Read."






						tldw meaning at DuckDuckGo
					

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




					duckduckgo.com


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

lklawson said:


> I agree that cutting the tendons on the primary weapon bearing limb would be effective.  The rest of it is just over-focus on "I should do something with this knife I have in my hand."


Meh, it's not necessarily "tendon cutting," though you could do that with a heavy and sharp enough blade. The important thing, is damaging the "operability" of the limb and getting the finger off the trigger.


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## O'Malley (Jul 27, 2022)

lklawson said:


> TLDW = "Too Long, Didn't Watch."  It is a spinoff from TLDR, which means, "Too Long, Didn't Read."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Followed by two points, it's a format commonly used to summarize content such as text (TLDR) or video (TLDW). 









						What Does “TLDR” Mean, and How Do You Use It?
					

Unlike most internet acronyms, TLDR (or TL;DR) has found its way into news articles, professional emails, and even Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary. But what does TLDR mean, how do you use it, and where did it come from?




					www.howtogeek.com


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> I wouldn't know about the second one. Without context, it's not easy to imagine how you'd end up in a position where you have full control of the threat's upper body, but you'd need to kill him by cutting his arteries, and for some reason the gun is between his legs.


Full version from a tape they did for military groups abroad. The principles are the same, but the context is battlefield sentry-removal.


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## lklawson (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Followed by two points, it's a format commonly used to summarize content such as text (TLDR) or video (TLDW).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which does not, in any way, change the common meaning or common understanding of "Too Long, Didn't Watch." 

If you want to try to defend your mistake with silly pedantry focusing on an uncommon and far-less-used understanding, I could give you a clew.


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## O'Malley (Jul 27, 2022)

GreenieMeanie said:


> Full version from a tape they did for military groups abroad. The principles are the same, but the context is battlefield sentry-removal.


Hm I see. I'd be curious to compare the contexts of active shooters vs battlefield sentry-removal and whether that has an impact on the technique.


lklawson said:


> Which does not, in any way, change the common meaning or common understanding of "Too Long, Didn't Watch."
> 
> If you want to try to defend your mistake with silly pedantry focusing on an uncommon and far-less-used understanding, I could give you a clew.


Oh I'm sure you could teach me a lot about pedantry.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Hm I see. I'd be curious to compare the contexts of active shooters vs battlefield sentry-removal and whether that has an impact on the technique.


Probably the biggest difference, is if there's no body armor, in which case--head control, neck cranks, that sort of thing.

This is an OSS vet discussing what he was taught to do, and did.






This is picture from the training of that era.


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## CB Jones (Jul 27, 2022)

vic said:


> If there is nowhere to run or hide will these techniques work as a last resort? How can these moves be improved?



My opinion for what it is worth:

1)  Guns are distance weapons.  In an active shooter scenario you are probably shot before you get within reach.

2)  In a 3rd party "teacher" position as described....I would rather them crack the shooters skull open with a hard heavy object over and over until the threat is gone instead of trying a disarm they saw on youtube.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

CB Jones said:


> My opinion for what it is worth:
> 
> 1)  Guns are distance weapons.  In an active shooter scenario you are probably shot before you get within reach.
> 
> 2)  In a 3rd party "teacher" position as described....I would rather them crack the shooters skull open with a hard heavy object over and over until the threat is gone instead of trying a disarm they saw on youtube.


Pretty much. Hand to hand is pretty last resort, unless you happen to be right next to them when they go.

Having a gun with range and decent cavitation is the only realistic option.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 27, 2022)

CB Jones said:


> My opinion for what it is worth:
> 
> 1)  Guns are distance weapons.  In an active shooter scenario you are probably shot before you get within reach.


Which is one reason why it would be helpful to have a distance weapon of your own.



GreenieMeanie said:


> Having a gun with range and decent cavitation is the only realistic option.


So you're restricting this to rifles only. Cavitation from handgun rounds is non-existent.


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## GreenieMeanie (Jul 27, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which is one reason why it would be helpful to have a distance weapon of your own.
> 
> 
> So you're restricting this to rifles only. Cavitation from handgun rounds is non-existent.


In comparison—yes. But what I basically mean, is that you probably shouldn’t use something like .22.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 29, 2022)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Stop the personal attacks and return to the subject at hand, or threads will be locked and points will be issued.

Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2022)

*MODERATOR NOTE:*

This thread had gotten off topic, with multiple posts violating our ToS, however the topic itself is a useful/important one. As a result, we have deleted the offending posts, along with those that are in response to them.

I am unlocking this thread, but have left up Dirty Dog's warning, and encourage all of you to consider it when making future posts on this thread and site.


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