# Ephedra Debate - Was Re: Creatine, to take or not to take



## J-kid

Hi i used to take creatine about 4 months ago but stoped because the pill form was causing stomach problems.  I have been training harder then ever to become a UFC fighter this means my muscles are swore from working out.  I just 500g of Creatine MOnohydrate to get stronger but not sure if i should take it.  Thinking of my stomach and prehaps the long term problems that no one will know about intil ten years from now. My doctor said its ok to take it but, Is there any risks and what do you think made my stomach all messed up when i was taking it,


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## Nightingale

everyone's body reacts differently to different things.

I'd say, if creatine gave you stomach problems in the past, your body was trying to tell you something. Listen to it, and achieve your goals through hard work, proper diet, and exercise instead.

and pleasepleaseplease, don't take anything with ephedra or ma jong.  they can kill you.


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## lvwhitebir

I think creatine is all hype.  I would avoid drugs of all kinds and just eat and train right.  The benefits of drugs is short term with the potential harm being long term.

   WhiteBirch


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## Bob Hubbard

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *everyone's body reacts differently to different things.
> 
> I'd say, if creatine gave you stomach problems in the past, your body was trying to tell you something. Listen to it, and achieve your goals through hard work, proper diet, and exercise instead.
> 
> and pleasepleaseplease, don't take anything with ephedra or ma jong.  they can kill you. *




Definately avoid the ephedra...  I'm known folks who had mood swings, it made me hyper and -very- irritable when I took it.  I've beed seeing a growing number of issues with it.

Always do -SERIOUS- research on anything you are going to take.  Dont just take your buddys or even your doctors word on it.  Do research.


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## J-kid

Not sure if i wanna take it at all, afraid that i will get weaker in the long run from taking it.:hammer:


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## Bob Hubbard

Hit the library and work thru a couple years worth of "Mens Fitness" magazine.  Lot of good info in there an suppliments.


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## Roland

to use for three months then stay off for one month.
Your body's creatine levels should be pretty full by that time, so any more than 3 months is pretty useless. 
Plus, it gives your system a rest, less of a chance of it causing upset stomach while your body filters out any residue.


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## Bagatha

The pill form of creatine is not very effective anyway (from what I have heard, never tried it myself). I have had nothing but positive results from creatine monohydrate in powder form. I can say from experience that the serum stuff S-U-C-K-S. But yeah, you have to cycle it every 3 or 4 months, go off it for at least a mo. If you dont cycle it your body becomes dependant on an external source and slows its own natural production, which means your not getting any benefit but still forking out big bucks for something that is there for free......

500 g???? please tell me this is a typo! 5g is normal, 10g is AMPLE...... any more is considered "loading", I have never heard of anyone taking over 30g/day, and Im talking about 200+ pound bodybuilders.


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## Nightingale

um... I was hoping that he meant 500mg as well.


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## KennethKu

Bagatha is correct.

Even 50 gram of creatine will get you sitting in the restroom for the most part of the day.


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## MartialArtist

Creatine is pretty safe, just three amino acids.  There are no studies saying that creatine causes liver or kidney damage, it just does the opposite in saying it's good for your health...

I don't take it as a supplement, but if you do, don't take it in a pill form.  Powder is best, and look for high-quality creatine, not the cheap stuff.  When you use creatine, YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO CYCLE.  The negative effects of creatine, from stomach problems to excessive gas, are from using it improperly.  Well, creatine causes gas anyway, but it can be reduced greatly.

Go to bodybuilding.com and check out its forums.  They talk a great deal on supplements.  Of course, they are bias as a lot of them promote the use of steroids and such, but they have a lot of studies to back up a lot of their claims.


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## arthurb999

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> * I have been training harder then ever to become a UFC fighter this means my muscles are swore from working out.*



Take glutamine and good whey protien powder.  Take 5 grams of glutamine mixed in with your protien shake after working out and before bed.  Also take a multivitamin.


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## ZenYuchia

Don't take it the only reason to is to gain ego gratification from having larger muscles without earning them.  (not say you are egotistcal)

-Dave


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## cassidy

go to musclemag.com and research it.Ephedra won't kill you. The bottle says take four and people take 16 of course they are going to  die. I have a bachelors in this sort of thing and don't ask questions like that on a martial arts board. I have supplied my former studio of three hundread students with universal nutrition products for years and never any problems that are death defying. Any MMA artist that is elite takes supplements I know because tito orders straight through me. And ken and frank shamrock supplement a lot as well also randy couture and numerous others. when taking creatine it is a absolute must to drink a gallon or more of water a day. the chinese have been using ephedra for over 2000 years to treat asthma and such. Sorry for rambling, but to many people post as no it alls when they know nothing about the subject.


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## lhommedieu

I'm curious:  what is the advantage to using ephedra (and what is it's connection to creatine)?  Does it relieve soreness (due to the fact that it is a warm, acrid herb used to release the exterior, according to the Chinese materia medica)?

Ma Huang (ephedra) has been used for centuries by the Chinese to treat the common cold, flu, cough, wheezing, etc.  While very effective, Ma Huang is almost always combined with other herbs to facilitate its effect on specific complaints (most, if not all herbal formulas are crafted in this way) or to mitigate it's side-effects.  For example, if too much of this herb is used, or for too long, it may cause heavy sweating that weakens the body.  This is why smaller amounts of the herb are almost always combined with other herbs to create a synergestic effect.

Ma Huang is a bronchiodilator.  It also promotes sweating and urination.  In addition, it is a vasoconstrictor, and long term use can lead to increases in blood pressure, anxiety, and tremors.  Ingestion of too much ephedra can stimulate both the cerebral contex and subsortical centers, causing insomnia and restlessness.

Traditional Chinese herbal medicine is generally given in the form of decoctions (boiling the herbs in a "tea" for a long period of time).  This allows the herb to be combined with other herbs which, as mentioned above, combine to create a synergistic effect in a solution that is pharmocologically much less toxic than if were given by itself in solution. 

Perhaps the problem with ephedra is that it is being marketed by Western drug companies and is often sold in a manner that is incompatible with its traditional uses.  (This is true of most Chinese herbs that are sold on the mass market today.)  Even Chinese patent formulas (pre-made, in pill, powder, or tincture form), which reflect a Western predisposition for convenience vs. effectiveness, are generally based on traditional formulas and have much lower dosages than their Western counterparts.  (Chinese patents carry their own problems, however, including addition of toxic herbs and chemicals that are unregulated.  That is one of the reasons why decoctions are generally safer.) 

This is not to say that Chinese herbal medicine is perfectly safe and easy to prescribe.  It takes four years to graduate from an acupuncture/herbal-based college in the United States today; requirements in China were/are more stringent insofar as they required a lengthy apprenticeship in the past, and internships in Chinese medical hospitals today, after college and post-graduate education in herbology.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Elfan

The only suplements I would recomend are whey protein powder and a multivitamin.


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## cassidy

once again another novice opinion on the matter.


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## Nightingale

lets let the news speak for itself.  this is an associated press article on NBC news.




> http://www.msnbc.com/news/818938.asp?0dm=C18MH#BODY
> 
> 
> EPHEDRA, the experts told a Senate subcommittee, has been linked to heart attacks and strokes and has not been proven to have any valid medical purpose. They urged the Food and Drug Administration to remove the products from the market.
> It is beyond dispute that ephedra has triggered heart attacks and death, said Bill Jeffery of the Centre for Science in Public Interest in Ottawa, Canada. He said supplements with ephedra are banned in Canada, which classifies the herb as a class 1 health risk.
> 
> EXPERTS SAY RISKS OUTWEIGH BENEFITS
> Ephedra supplements are promoted as useful in losing weight and increasing athletic performance, but Dr. Ronald M. Davis of the American Medical Association said his organization believes the claimed benefits do not outweigh the risks.
> The weight of the available clinical evidence supports the removal of dietary supplement products containing (ephedra) from the market, Davis told the Senate Government Operations oversight panel.
> But a lawyer representing Metabolife International Inc., an ephedra supplement maker, disputed the criticism, saying that product is safe and effective when used as directed by adults.
> 
> Testimony indicated the U.S. armed services have already banned ephedra products from being sold on military posts. The National Collegiate Athletic Association has banned its use by student athletes and the National Football League has banned its use by the pros. Canada, the United Kingdom and Germany all prohibit sales of the drug.
> And, yet, said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., ephedra-laced supplements continue to be readily available in the United States and are frequently used by young people.
> Durbin, who chaired the hearings, said one of his constituents, 16-year-old Sean Riggins, a football player in Lincoln, Ill., died of a heart attack last month after taking an ephedra-laced supplement called Yellow Jackets.
> He said there have been thousands of other adverse health reports linked to ephedra, along with studies in the New England Journal of Medicine and at the Mayo Clinic connecting ephedra with heart attacks, strokes and high blood pressure.
> 
> Durbin said Metabolife claimed it had received no reports of adverse health effects from its products, but last month the company gave the FDA copies of more than 13,000 adverse event reports, including three deaths, 20 heart attacks and 24 strokes.
> But Lenny Davis, a Washington lawyer representing Metabolife, said conclusions about the adverse health events from the company product are based on unverified telephone calls. Scientific studies show that when used as directed by adults, the Metabolife ephedra supplement is safe and effective, he said.
> Davis said Metabolife favors FDA regulations that would ban promoting ephedra products as street drug alternatives, limit the sales to adults, mandate warning labels and require reporting of adverse health events...
> Young people, particularly athletes, buy the supplements because they are promoted to improve performance or to control weight. Ephedra is known to constrict blood vessels, raising blood pressure and pulse rates. Among some young people, the drug is used to stay alert after long study sessions or to sharpen reflexes on the ball field, witnesses said.
> We have mountains of evidence that this drug is not safe and these manufacturers are being irresponsible about their marketing practices, said Durbin. Ephedra is not safe and should be taken off the market.
> He said the FDA and Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson should use their authority to suspend sales of the product in the U.S. until we can ensure that it is safe.
> Durbin said he suggested that in a letter to Thompson in August.
> When I sent that letter, Sean Riggins was still alive, Durbin told Lester M. Crawford, FDAs deputy commissioner. Why hasnt there been a good faith effort to order suspension (of sales of the supplement)? The clear and prudent thing is to take this off the shelf. This is a killer.
> The burden is on us, replied Crawford. Once we take an action, we have to be able to sustain it.
> He said the agency has stepped up our efforts, but it needs to complete a study before it can take action that might lead to a suspension...
> Under a 1994 federal law, the FDA cannot regulate dietary supplements the same way as it does pharmaceuticals. The agency requires drug manufacturers to prove their products are safe and effective. But the burden of proof is reversed for dietary supplements. Before a dietary supplement can removed from the market, the FDA must prove it is not safe.
> Crawford said the FDA is still working on rules that would regulate the diet supplement industry, but it could take four more years before they are in force.


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## cassidy

The ingredients are not properly put together in metabolife,which is part of the problem. In over seven years of working for a reputable nutrition company we never had any of the sort. These are experts that could come in to your dojo or dojang and say it looks too violent we should shut it down. Martial arts makes kids violent right?! The FDA wants to ban stuff like that, but cigarettes and alchohol kill how many people every year. Oh yeah that's right the companys are to rich and powerful to battle. Just because it is the federal government means nothing. Our federal agencies know so much they can stop the war on drugs, predict terrorism plots and everything right? Go to ast-ss.com and research the positives before trashing it. I would bet all of my money that the people trying to pass it don't workout on a regular basis and couldn't tell you the name of any supplements. Since some pit bulls bite we should kill them all. Was the sixrteen year old properly hydrated? I doubt it. Did he take what the bottle said to take? I doubt it . Does he have any pre-existing conditions? Oh my goodness yes he does,I saw the story on TV and he was not a healthy kid. Not to mention the fact that it is not for use under the age of 18. How would he get it you ask ,the same way kids get smokes,drugs and alchohol . Anyone can pull up newspaper articles ,few know what they are actually talking about.


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## Kenpomachine

Here in Europe, ephedrine and steroids are ban and regarded as not safe to use under strict medical care. And completely banned for use in sport activities. May even cause problems if you're taking ephedrine for a flu under medical prescripcion.
Creatine is regarded safe, though is in a much lower dosage than those written here. 4g/day at most. More than that is considered not effective. It's used to help recovering of the natural creatine occuring in the body after exhausting aerobic exercise.
It has not shown benefits with anaerobic training.


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## Nightingale

the kid could get ephedra by walking into any GNC and buying it. Even though the bottle may say "not for people under 18" stores like Target, GNC, and other health stores will still sell it.  I know this for a fact, because my friend sent his little sister over to GNC to get his xenadrine while he was shopping in another store for his mom's birthday present.  Lizzie is twelve years old, and they sold it to her!  They sold it to her because its legal to sell it to her.

With regards to your "cigarettes and alcohol" argument... I find it interesting that you are comparing something that you say is good for you to things that are so obviously bad.  People are aware of the risks of cigarettes and alcohol. The surgeons general warning is printed right there on the package.  Not so with ephedra. People don't know the risks.  (FDA v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp., No. 98-1152 (U.S. 03-21-2000), the supreme court ruled that the FDA didn't have the authority to go after tobacco companies, which is why they aren't).  We have strict cigarette and alcohol regulations, but ephedra is completely unregulated.  However, the burden of proof is on the FDA, and they must conduct studies to prove unsafety before they can act to remove it.

And I find it rather ironic that the site you referred me to to check on ephedra's "positives" is trying to sell me something! of course they're going to say they have a good product. They want to make money!  I've researched the internet, and the only articles I'm finding that say ephedra is harmless are on sites from people trying to sell it to me.  And the other articles all say there are significant health risks.


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## sammy3170

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Hi i used to take creatine about 4 months ago but stoped because the pill form was causing stomach problems.  I have been training harder then ever to become a UFC fighter this means my muscles are swore from working out.  I just 500g of Creatine MOnohydrate to get stronger but not sure if i should take it.  Thinking of my stomach and prehaps the long term problems that no one will know about intil ten years from now. My doctor said its ok to take it but, Is there any risks and what do you think made my stomach all messed up when i was taking it, *



If taken correctly you can get massive gains from creatine.  Having said that I know a few guys who are monsters and cut who eat the right foods balancing them right and have amazing results.  You just need commitment.

Cheers
Sammy


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## cassidy

nightingale go to musclemag.com they won't sell you anything and search it. Have you ever tryed it. I have off and on for five years along with numerous friends and family. Oh and by the way we are all unhealthy and dying from it. Please help us and send donations because the FDA didn't warn us of the risks.


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## Nightingale

oh, they won't try to sell me something?

on their main page, I searched for "ephedra" just like you told me to... and the first thing it brings up is a PAGE WHERE I CAN SPEND $80 TO ORDER IT!!!

Please show me an impartial study done by a scientific researcher who isn't trying to sell me anything.


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## cassidy

go to the forum to sign and go to mens suplements and do a search for goodness sakes when it says log in my login is cassidy and my password is ##### go ahead and search, you'll find a lot. I personally e-mailed you my pass word so you can just go on and research it.


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## Nightingale

I went to your forum...

It was basically a bunch of random people chatting.  what I heard about ephedra was basically opinion without any science to back it up.  (and many ephedra horror stories about people blacking out, having reflux, heart problems, and other issues)  I'm not interested in opinion. I want you to show me a good, solid, scientific study by a reputable researcher that supports ephedra as healthy.

I'm not denying that the ECA (Ephedra/Ephedrine, Caffeine, Aspirin) stack helps people lose weight. It helps, and it does what it claims to do.  My objection to it is that although it helps people lose weight, it can also kill them.  And I've seen the scientific studies to back that up.  Please show me one good, solid research study or article that supports your opinion that was not published in a muscle magazine, but in a scientific journal.


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## cassidy

Yes that is true I will find some,also can't one slip of a kenpo/karate strike kill someone so should we all right the senators and congressmen about it and shut down schools because what we learn is lethal and could turn deadly. Supplements should be someones choice not the governments just like taking martial arts is or should we just become a communist country.


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## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> 
> *Yes that is true I will find some,also can't one slip of a kenpo/karate strike kill someone so should we all right the senators and congressmen about it and shut down schools because what we learn is lethal and could turn deadly. Supplements should be someones choice not the governments just like taking martial arts is or should we just become a communist country. *



The above argument could also be used to argue for the legalization of heroin, cocaine, and other illegal drugs.

The government has a responsibility for the safety of its people.  It walks a fine line between safeguarding the lives of its citizens, and allowing personal choice.  The supreme court is consistantly making decisions over where exactly this line exists.  

My issue with these drugs isn't that people take them to lose weight... its that people take them to lose weight and aren't aware of the risks they are taking with their health, because the drugs are marketed as something that is good for you.  People are made aware of the risks of tobacco and alcohol and illegal drugs.  However, public education about supplements is just beginning, and people are just starting to realize that just because a store sells it doesn't mean its safe.  Americans are used to relying on the FDA to protect them from harmful products.  The FDA can regulate food.  The FDA can regulate medications. The manufacturers have to prove that it's safe before it can ever be sold.  Not so with supplements.  Someone could bottle a poison and sell it as a supplement, and they could continue to do so LEGALLY until the FDA had time to run studies and prove the drug unsafe.

I spoke with my doctor about this drug.  Her response was "please don't take it. Its dangerous.  I've had several patients get sick by taking ephedra."  My doctor specializes in sports medicine and was the official physician for both the Rams and the Angels at one time.  She's board certified in internal medicine, emergency medicine, and sports medicine. 0 I'm taking her advice to heart.  She told me that "a big problem with those drugs is that you can't stay on them forever, and when you stop taking them, you can gain rediculous amounts of weight because your body is used to so many outside stimulants.  You end up doing more harm than good.  You're better off with a good diet and exercise plan. You won't see results as quickly, but you'll look better and feel better longer, and you're not risking your health doing it."


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## cassidy

Just curious did she say any supplements would be beneficial without the risks. I played in the braves minor league system for two years and we had tables of supps such as protein ,glutamine ,creatine,zma and aminos so I was just wondering what she said since our doctors approved ours.


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## Nightingale

I asked her specifically only about ephedra/ephedrine and the ECA stack. 

However, she has recommended some supplements to me and my family on several occasions, so I can tell you she is not completely against supplements.  She just supports good diet and nutrition over quick fixes like supplements, because some supplements are dangerous, and once you stop taking the supplement, you discover that you haven't really done anything to solve the problem, because it comes back as soon as you're off the drug.  If you make lifestyle changes with diet and exercise, those changes tend to stick.


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## cassidy

I'm not asking about lifestyle changes I have been living a natural bodybuilder lifestyle for about eight years and a martial arts lifestyle for almost twenty years with blackbelts in four styles.


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## Nightingale

how is your lifestyle natural if you're taking supplements?  Are they all herbal supplements or something?


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## cassidy

Obviously you are new to working out or you just don't. Natural is considered anything without steroids or growth hormones the natural oganizations I compete in have drug tsts and all. Natural I am informed you are not. Educate yourself on thing s before making comments you know nothing about. It makes you look foolish.


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## Nightingale

http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/

funny... why do they put ephedra/ephedrine on their list of "restricted substances" then?

And I am certainly not new to working out.  I have been involved in martial arts for 15 years now and have worked out on a regular basis.  I also consult regularly with both a doctor and a nutritionist regarding diet and/or supplements.  However, I don't bodybuild and would never want to.  I'm fit, toned, and happy that way.  Please note that this is a MARTIAL ARTS bulletin board, not a bodybuilding one.  Almost everyone here works out, and the vast majority of us don't bodybuild.  

Personally, my training regimen includes kenpo five days a week, plus weights and cardio in the gym on mondays, wednesdays, and fridays.  This schedule has been pretty consistant for the last five or six years.


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## cassidy

Each natural organization is different I competed in the natural universe and musclemania and it is not banned. Of course it is a martial arts forum but this is a healt section and someone asked a question and started a debate, I post questions and answer them on the martial arts forum.


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## arnisador

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## cassidy

It started that way in almost twenty years of martial I have been taught respect,humility,integrity, and standing up for yourself and what you think is right. However this person has no right to question my integrity and who is he to question who I compete with and what my organization rules are. Do I question who he studies with no. Does he question everything I say in a smart a## way yes. I don't need to take lip from a yellow belt in kenpo and I never will. I have a fourth degree in three styles and a second degree in one style. These virtues and standing up to know it alls who don't know what they are talking about has been taught to me for a long time. If you were the top sport karate instructor and had someone come in and tell you that you were doing something wrong because he heard this and that would you just sit back and let him criticize? I think not ,so do whatever you think is necesarry for your forum of no it alls from heresay. Since I heard that wally jay is teaching the wrong way I have to go correct him now on how to teach small circle jujitsu. Even though I never tried the art I'm sure I know more because my friends and peers told me so.     PEACE


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## Nightingale

actually, I'm a brown belt in kenpo. However, I recently started at a new school because I moved, and chose to remove my brown belt and exchange it for a white belt, because the new school had some differences in the way they taught some things, and I felt that I needed to learn it their way.  I've been involved in kenpo for 15 years.

and, I'm a SHE.

I question you because you have placed yourself and your opinions in a public forum. Your posts have opened yourself to questions. That is the nature of Martial Talk.  

You have also not given any scientific research to back up those opinions, even though you've been asked for it repeatedly, which is why I have continued to question you.  Show me even one scientific study by a reputable researcher (translation: someone who isn't trying to sell the product, has nothing to gain other than scientific knowledge, and is affilliated with a respectable hospital or scientific organization) and I will re evaluate my opinion.  However, every reputable study that I've read, and every medical professional I've spoken with, has told me that you're wrong. I merely request that you show me evidence to the contrary, which, so far, you have failed to do.

How many black belts you have doesn't matter to me with regards to this issue, just as my rank shouldn't matter to you, because rank has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is ephedra.


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## Bob Hubbard

Cocaine, Marajuana, Heroin and acid are all natural too.  At one time all 4 were legal. Yet they are now currently banned and illegal.  The fact that ephedra/ephedrine/ Ma hung is currently legal and used in way too many diet aids is besided the point.  Tobacco is also legal, yet only an utter moron would argue its health benifits.

Ma Hungs side effects are well published.  Billed as a 'stimulant/metabolism booster" it also causes headaches, nausea, and heart problems.  There are a growing number of deaths being blamed on it.  I have seen studies in some of the 'entry-level' fitness magazines warning against its use.  The herbalist I speak to about such things also recomends either not using it, or using it in very small amounts, and not for extended periods of time.

Simply put, do some research.  I just did mine.

If you are outside the US, then the legal issues may be different.

From http://www.jameshoyer.com/problem_ephedra.html


> Ephedrine is a powerful herbal stimulant used in diet pills, energy boosters and body building formulas. The Food and Drug Administration found evidence that the use of ephedrine sickened or killed more than 800 people since 1994. The FDA concluded "...the use of ephedrine-alkaloid dietary supplements is associated with a serious and significant health concern because of the nature of the adverse events and the size of the population at risk."



from http://www.injurync.com/ephedra.htm


> One of the most popular over-the-counter medications containing Ephedra is Metabolifeâ. Metabolife International Inc., the manufacturer of Metabolifeâ, is currently under investigation by the U.S. Justice Department and could possibly face criminal charges for allegedly withholding important records of the number of deaths and serious injuries associated with certain products. On September 6, 2002, a confidential settlement was reached with Metabolife International, Inc. and a California man, who claimed his cardiac arrest and brain damage were a result of him using the Metabolife 356 product.



from http://www.ephedraattorney.com/faq.html


> Like phenylpropanolamine, ephedrine acts on the appetite control center of the brain, the hypothalmus, suppressing the desire to eat. Like all CNS stimulants, ephedrine stimulates the heart and causes blood vessels to constrict, increasing blood pressure and heart rate.
> Ephedrine-containing products (ma huang, Chinese ephedra, and Sida cordifolia) are marketed to improve athletic performance and enhance weight loss.
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, there is no good evidence that substances containing ephedrine enhance one's exercise performance. It is banned by the International Olympic Committee and National Collegiate Athletic Association.


and


> How Serious Are The Health Hazards Associated With Ephedra (Ephedrine)?
> Ephedra is evidently one of the most dangerous of the so-called herbal or natural dietary supplements. It is touted as an ancient Chinese herb (known there as ma huang), with the implication that it has stood the test of time.
> Many people in this country are being seriously injured as a result of dietary supplements, and yet they are unaware that suppliers are virtually free to make health claims about substances for which there is no scientific proof indicating effectiveness, let alone the existence of side effects. Due to a law which the industry was able to get passed in 1994, the FDA has been left virtually impotent to regulate these products.
> 
> According to the FDA, since 1993 at least 50 people have died and 800 made ill by dietary supplements containing ephedrine (see FDA, 1996). The FDA recommends a maximum daily ephedrine dose of 24 milligrams, that supplements contain no more than 8 milligrams of ephedrine or related alkaloids per serving, and that ephedrine be used for no longer than one week.
> 
> Because of misuse and adverse reactions to products containing ephedrine, approximately 21 states have passed regulations stricter than federal regulations. These include requiring that ephedrine products be made available by prescription only; moving ephedrine products to schedules of controlled substances; and prohibiting weight loss, appetite control, or stimulant claims on the labels.
> 
> Due to the potential for harm, self-medication with ephedra-containing products is ill advised. Do not take ephedrine if you have high blood pressure, diabetes, or thyroid problems, or if you are on antidepressant medications. Also do not use ephedrine if you are breast feeding as the drug is known to enter breast milk.



From http://www.ephedrine-news.com/


> Ephedra Products Linked to Over One Hundred Deaths
> 
> There are three billion servings of ephedra consumed yearly, an extremely popular stimulant contained in diet pills and sports drinks. Due to its classification as a food, ephedra is exempt from FDA regulation despite adverse events with ephedra received since 1994, linking the supplement to chest pain, myocardial infarction, hepatitis, stroke, seizures, psychosis, and death. The FDA has now collected reports of over 100 deaths due to the use of ephedra-containing products, and consumer advocates and doctors are outraged that the supplement has not yet been banned. Public Citizen consumer group petitioned to have ephedra banned in September 2001, and the decision to instead review all scientific reports on ephedra's safety before ruling on the petition prompted the group to label the HHS and FDA as "cowards" for not taking a more deliberate stance.
> 
> The nation's largest selling ephedra-containing product, Metabolife, is now under criminal investigation to determine if Metabolife International and former Metabolife president and co-founder lied when telling the FDA they had not received any reports of adverse Metabolife health effects. The FDA has been trying to collect reports from Metabolife as far back as 1997 but said the company "refused and resisted us every step of the way". A pharmacologist hired by the FDA in 1995 to analyze the sudden increase of deaths and heart problems in teenagers whom had taken ephedra was surprised after he reported his findings to the FDA when the agency did not move quickly to restrict ephedra and largely attributes this to the FDA being "under pressure from the powerful ephedra industry".


 (note, many links to more info in the original article)

from http://www.ephedrine-news.com/html/effects.html


> Ephedrine (Metabolife) Side Effects
> Derived from an evergreen plant in Central Asia, ephedra is used as a major ingredient in sport drinks and dietary supplements. Currently, Metabolife International's diet pill is under investigation. Taking Metabolife and other ephedra products heightens alertness by stimulating the central nervous system, but ephedra, including Metabolife, has been linked to deadly and serious side effects. The FDA had been unsuccessfully trying to obtain adverse event reports from the industry since at least 1997, but since the deregulation of herbal products, the figures had not been collected.
> 
> The FDA has been collecting and receiving reports of adverse events with ephedra since 1994, and in a September 1994 FDA Medical Bulletin, the agency reported the number was increasing. The reported reactions varied from mild side effects to very serious conditions including:
> 
> nervousness
> dizziness
> tremor
> alternations in blood pressure or heart rate
> headache
> gastrointestinal distress
> chest pain
> myocardial infarction
> hepatitis
> stroke
> seizures
> pyschosis
> death
> Since 1994, the FDA has collected reports of over 100 deaths among ephedra users such as Metabolife. Metabolife is the number one maker of ephedra supplements in the U.S. A report from the Centers for Disease Control on August 16, 1996, reported that the Bureau of Food and Drug safety, Texas Department of Health, received around 500 reports of adverse events in persons that consumed dietary supplement products containing ephedrine. The adverse ephedrine report total included reports by individuals and as identified by the Bureau of Epidemiology in a review of records from the six Texas Poison Center Network centers. The severity of the ephedrine side effects ranged, but eight ephedrine users died and reports of stroke, myocardial infarction, chest pain, and seizures were reported. The reports included patients that followed the recommended dosage.
> 
> According to a December 21, 2000 New England Journal of Medicine article, researchers consider 25 mg to be the recommended therapeutic dose that is usually given with about 200 mg of caffeine. This one dose of Metabolife quickens the heart rate, opens up the bronchial airways allowing more oxygen to become available, and constricts the blood vessels resulting in an increased blood pressure. Some Metabolife users react more or strongly to ephedra compounds than others that may be why Metabolife side effects are experienced.
> 
> On October 11, 2001, Public Citizen consumer group made a statement before the National Academy of Sciences on the Framework for Evaluating the Safety of Dietary Supplements citing data collected from January 1993- February 2001 to demonstrate that ephedrine alkaloid dietary supplements have been associated with more deaths, myocardial infarctions, cardiac arrhythmias, hypertension, stroke, and seizure events than all other dietary supplements combined. The data according to the FDA analysis showed during this time frame there were:
> 
> 3308 adverse events for all dietary supplements, 1398 of these (42%) for the ephedrine alkaloids
> 137 reports of death, 81 deaths (59%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
> 38 reports of myocardial infarction/heart attack, 32 reports (84%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
> 98 reports of cardiac arrhythmias, 62 (63%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
> 144 reports of hypertension, 91 (63%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
> 85 reports of stroke, 69 (81%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids
> 121 reports of seizure, 70 (58%) associated with ephedrine alkaloids



For more information, click below:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=ephedra+ephedrine+problems


----------



## cassidy

whatever I speak on experiace of myself and peers using it over the years.So their word is good but not people that use it wisely?! Whatever I'm done with this crap. Next thing I know I'll perform A perfect spinning hook or the like and be told I'm doing it wrong because your instructor or friend said different. LATER


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## Bob Hubbard

I'll take mounting evidence, and my own personal experiences and that of people I've personally spoken to. 

Something to consider, if you are in fact heavily into the body building routine, it may effect you differently due to your bodys metabolizing things differently.  I've watched BB friends who chug those weight gainer shakes like I do tea.  If I did that, I'd blow up from the high carbs and cals.  They don't, as thier body needs the fuel.

You have to take all sides into consideration.  Maybe it works for you, but for -most- people, and for the -average- person, its dangerous.

Believe what you want, do what you will.  

But as you said, this is a health forum, and the evidence shows that this particular drug is not a good thing.

Many thought steriods were ok...now they are having liver and joint transplants.  

Research into things changes things as evidence turns up and is reviewed.

As to a perfect spinning kick, well, that depends on which system, who the instructor was, what his lineage was, etc etc etc.  Too Messy.


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## cassidy

whatever:rofl:  I'm going back to the gym now while I pop my death pills,and watch everbody there who is taking them die. Then I am going to go find a shotokan master, Taekwondo master, Kuk sool won mater and the likes and tell them all that they don't do a kick right because I have EVIDENCE and PROOF because so and so said so.


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## Angus

Why are you so bitter that she/he disagrees? They have a right to disagree and so do you. It's a public discussion forum, it should be understood (and hoped for) that other viewpoints will arise, you know, for discussion? You have every right to disagree, but you don't mean to get mad and make bad analogies about it, just agree to disagree. You've presented your side and they've presented theirs. It's a good thing. No reason to get defensive.

I personally don't like ephedra or creatine. Not sure they're evil, I just don't like them. Seen people have too many ill effects from using them the prescribed way, so I think I'll pass on them. I'll stick to hard work (if only I did...) and protein and vitamin supplements. Glucosamine is good, too.


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## Kenpomachine

Funny. While there's been studies showing the benefits from creatine (which has an endogenous, that  means your body produces it naturally) and caffeine with no side effects, from proteins there has only been evidence of completing your nutrition when it's lacking in proteins, but no extra benefits in performing. And an overload in liposoluble vitamins may cause some illnesses.

The better thing is to ask a doctor.


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## Kalicombat

It has been my experience over the last twenty five years of lifting that just hitting the big three, squat, bench, and deadlift, with a few accessory excercises will benefit anyone the most. Competitive bodybuiling is different in that they have to work all their muscles. However for overall strength, the one excercise that is a must is Squats. Squats have more of an adrogenic effect on the human body then any amount of creatine, glutamine, etc. A high quality  whey protein and a multivitamin are your best bet for any and all supplementation. Eat well, SLEEP enough and periodize your workouts.  Also, stretching and deep tissue massage will help with muscle recovery. Too many people pick up a bodybuilding magazine and get the impression that they can look like the pro bodybuilders on the pages. You cant with out anabolic steroids, seriously good genetics, and lots and lots of dedication. 

Gary Catherman


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## Bagatha

Creatine Kicks serious butt. I was VERY reluctant at first to even experiment with it until I did some research. Its in your body right now, and its in every meat product you eat, especially beef. I personally have noticed EXTREME results in terms of performance AND recovery. Some will say that it should not help performance by nature, but I have read several articles here on the net regarding experimentation with creatine and football players that proves otherwise. It is a tricky suppliment though, you have to time everything perfectly otherwise it just goes to waste. 

Ephedrine is a banned substance in most international events as is other forms of caffiene and even some asthma inhalers. Which is reason enough not to take it if you compete. Creatine as far as I know, is ok.


----------



## Kenpomachine

Caffeine is also allow in low doses, like say and or two expresso or half liter CocaCola.

And yes, creatine phospate (sp?) is one of the first fuels the muscle use. Complementing with creatine is said to benefit anaerobial exercises and recovery the best. 

Anybody with doubts try doing some research in *serious* medical journals, like the _New England Journal of Medicine_ 

But unless you're a pro, you'll benefit more from training, training and more training, proper diet and enough quality sleep, like Kalicombat said.


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## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by Bagatha _
> *Creatine Kicks serious butt. I was VERY reluctant at first to even experiment with it until I did some research. Its in your body right now, and its in every meat product you eat, especially beef. I personally have noticed EXTREME results in terms of performance AND recovery. Some will say that it should not help performance by nature, but I have read several articles here on the net regarding experimentation with creatine and football players that proves otherwise. It is a tricky suppliment though, you have to time everything perfectly otherwise it just goes to waste.
> 
> Ephedrine is a banned substance in most international events as is other forms of caffiene and even some asthma inhalers. Which is reason enough not to take it if you compete. Creatine as far as I know, is ok. *




Yes, yes, yes. You are soooo right.

Regarding proteins, I have just remembered that if you overload on a regular basis you can get uric acid in you blood, which in the past was an ilness of rich people.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Bagatha _
> *Creatine Kicks serious butt. I was VERY reluctant at first to even experiment with it until I did some research. Its in your body right now, and its in every meat product you eat, especially beef. I personally have noticed EXTREME results in terms of performance AND recovery. Some will say that it should not help performance by nature, but I have read several articles here on the net regarding experimentation with creatine and football players that proves otherwise. It is a tricky suppliment though, you have to time everything perfectly otherwise it just goes to waste.  *



I used Cell-Tech for quite a while in preperation of my last test. Cell-tech is absolutely awesome. There's a regular creatine your body produces. As you age you produce less and less. Anyway as long as you drink the appropriate amount of water with it you'll makes leaps and bounds in weight lifting. The recovery is just phenominal as well. I pounded out some serious weight during a work out and in the morning I woke up not even being sore. The rule of thumb was drink half of your body weight in ounces everyday. Drink your Nitro-Tech and your Cell-tech and you'll make serious gains.


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## JDenz

Judo to get back on topic if you want to be in UFC your are going to have to pound more then  just creatine.  If you are around two hundred pounds you need about 5-10 grams a day not 500.  If you are taking 500 grams a day you woud be poor in the bathroom sick all day. lol.  The loading crap is garbage.  In all the time that we have been supplementing wih creatine mainstream (late 90's) there hasn't been one study where the benifits of creatine over a 6 month period are diffrent from loading to not loading.   So don't worry about loading just do maintaince.  Also the premixed creatine and carbs have wrked the best for me.  I have traid just about every brand and I found the best two to be the EAS brand and Cell-Tech.  
      If you are going to fight in UFC you need to be on a lot of supplements and train for a long time.  Sometime along the road you are probabley going to need to hit the juice.    Not only that you are going to need to hook up with one of the big name teams or have huge succes at a combt sport. (olympics for, Judo,wrestling)  Champion in boxing, kickboxing, MT.  Well you get the picture.
        for me  Ephedrine rocks.  I have had some of my best workouts, and best cuts while on it.  The only side effects that I had was it made me jittery.
  Well that is my 2 cents


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## cassidy

Cell tech and nitro-tech are way,way, overpriced all that nitro tech is is whey protein and arginine, Cell tech is sugar ALA and creatine there are better products or products that are just as good for a lot less money. Go to musclemag.com or bodybuilding .com Good lord please quit waisting money on muscle tech garbage.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *Cell tech and nitro-tech are way,way, overpriced all that nitro tech is is whey protein and arginine, Cell tech is sugar ALA and creatine there are better products or products that are just as good for a lot less money. Go to musclemag.com or bodybuilding .com Good lord please quit waisting money on muscle tech garbage. *



Yeah I know what you mean. I actually was buying them off of the internet on some discount wholesalers. They seemed to be around 20 or so dollars less a conainer. After most of the research I did there really wasn't anything that stood out as close. Maybe I didn't look hard enough but I did purchase at a lesser price otherwise I'd really be in the poor house.


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## cassidy

Jfarnsworth pm me and I will let you in on something.


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Creatine is pretty safe, just three amino acids.  There are no studies saying that creatine causes liver or kidney damage, it just does the opposite in saying it's good for your health...
> 
> I don't take it as a supplement, but if you do, don't take it in a pill form.  Powder is best, and look for high-quality creatine, not the cheap stuff.  When you use creatine, YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO CYCLE.  The negative effects of creatine, from stomach problems to excessive gas, are from using it improperly.  Well, creatine causes gas anyway, but it can be reduced greatly.
> 
> Go to bodybuilding.com and check out its forums.  They talk a great deal on supplements.  Of course, they are bias as a lot of them promote the use of steroids and such, but they have a lot of studies to back up a lot of their claims. *



First, I quoted this post, it is not a personal attack on MartialArtist , and I will make comments about other posts here as well.

How can this be safe, for when I had a blood test run and the doctor came and asked me if I was taking some form of Creatine. I replied no. He was visible upset. The level on the test was just over the normal limit found in a male working out a lot. I do not work out a lot. He ran the test again and I was just under the limit the next time. He told me that if I was to take any form of Creatine I was risking my overall health and the health of my kidneys. I know no one has done a study or one that is published.

As for the quote above about it being three simple amino acids, the two sugars that make up Nutrasweet (* registered trade mark *), AKA Equal or Aspartame are found naturally in milk and in a Banana. Yet if you combine these two compounds you get NutraSweet. Now before you go and get all upset, I did the research years ago. It is currently banned in New Mexico, so e-mail me and I can give you the complete story there. But, the point is two things put that are safe separate are not always safe together.

*
THERFORE Judo-Kid no matter how much we have disagreed before, I recommend you do not take this chemical in any form. Yet I also recommend you do your own research and find out for yourself. Including talking to your doctor. *

More to come . . .


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## cassidy

Don't just talk to a doctor talk to a doctor in sports medicine or a sports nutritionist or a doctor for a pro sports team or division1 college team. Please don't ask a normal; doctor who says you get everything you need from a diet. Also creatine is naturally occuring in red meat by taking extra you are just saturating your muscles in it. Don't eat red meat it might be bad for you and cause kidney failure. hehehe


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *Don't just talk to a doctor talk to a doctor in sports medicine or a sports nutritionist or a doctor for a pro sports team or division1 college team. Please don't ask a normal; doctor who says you get everything you need from a diet. Also creatine is naturally occuring in red meat by taking extra you are just saturating your muscles in it. Don't eat red meat it might be bad for you and cause kidney failure. hehehe *




Cassidy,

Please read your post to Nightingale about knowing what you are talking about and not looking like a fool. Also be open minded enough to realize that there might be an opinion that is different from yours and that oh my GOSH! it might be right. Oh yeah cheap Laugh HEHEHEHEHE so as not to be insulting. PS Cassidy Spell Check your posts. It makes you read more respectable.

Red meat may have it I do not know. I am willing to take Cassidy's word on this. Yet, do you know how red meat is cured or aged???? That white stuff you see hanging on sides of meat in meat houses is MOLD. And since Penicillin comes from Mold if you eat raw meat you can cure a virus. (* Seeing being funny could be misleading to the uneducated *)

Sorry for that Rant, Cassidy may have something to offer and he may have some life experience to share here. Yet I am finding his attitude a little hard to take.

Who am I, to make this post. No One. Just trying to post here also on a debate. Just because we may differ does not mean you have to be insulting or arrogant. Continue with your regimen, maybe in ten years you can come back and tell me how your kidneys and or testicles or your general health is. My experience from those who used Steroids and other supplemnets is that they now have some issue with their bodies they did not believe possible when they were taking the drugs. Not many are willing to come forward and look like a fool for disagreeing with what they said before.

For your sake Cassidy, I do hope it is 100% safe and you and everyone else will be just fine using it. Just be aware of what is out there. And just because it is FDA approved does not mean it is safe. E-mail me or PM me and I can tell anyone more.

Just my Opinions. Everyone else is entitled to their own. Just do not belittle those that disagree with you. 

PS: NOTE TO self, Please read your own post and try to live and post by it.


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## cassidy

Sorry about that nothing was meant to be insulting or have any offense taken. Sorry if I did offend you. My thing with nightingale is old news and it has bee resolved. What do I not live by in my old post that you are refering to. Once again I am truly sorry to have offended you.


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## cassidy

oops spell check darnit I forgot the n on been.


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *oops spell check darnit I forgot the n on been. *



Cassidy,
If less than an hour you can go back and edit your post.

Just a helpful hint.


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## JDenz

Bottom line weather or not supplements are healthy I will argue with anyone anytime that most of them are.  There are excetions and there are always rip offs (I am telling you Cell-Tech is the best creatine on the market that I have tried.  Anyway If you want to be at the highestlevels ofa sport you need suplimentation.


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## Bagatha

Some people dont think its very good. Interesting comments:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20754&highlight=cell+tech

I have never tried it so I hold no opinion.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> Bottom line weather or not supplements are healthy I will argue with anyone anytime that most of them are.  There are excetions and there are always rip offs (I am telling you Cell-Tech is the best creatine on the market that I have tried.  Anyway If you want to be at the highestlevels ofa sport you need suplimentation.



There is nothing magical about Cell-Tech. The key ingredients are : 10 g Creatine Monohydrate and 
75 g (Carbohydrates from Dextrose)

You are just over paying for the dextrose, which is glucose.

You can just get cheap creatine and dextrose and just mix them in the same amount.  The dextrose/glucose increase the absorption of creatine.  Simple as that.

Lots of people are already going the cheaper route.


If you want research references:

_Creatine-dextrose and protein-dextrose induce similar strength gains during training   _

MARK A. TARNOPOLSKY; GIANNI PARISE; NICHOLAS J. YARDLEY; CRAIG S. BALLANTYNE; SONNY OLATUNJI; STUART M. PHILLIPS

Departments of Medicine (Neurology and Neurological Rehabilitation) and Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA

MEDICINE AND SCIENCE IN SPORTS AND EXERCISE 2001;33:2044-2052


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## JDenz

I know whats in it i have made the mixture myself and there are off brands with the same ingrediants but nothing else gives me the same results.


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## jfarnsworth

I have to agree. Personally I've used two other types of creatine monohydrate and didn't get the performance that I did from cell-tech. The grape and fruit punch tasted the best so I stuck with it.


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## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Anyway If you want to be at the highestlevels ofa sport you need suplimentation. *



Work hard, work hard, and work harder still. And then, have a genetics that helps in that sport. Supplimentation is not a must.


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## cassidy

To be at the highest level of a sport yes you do. Show me one ufc,nfl ,or MLB player who doesn't supplement let alone use steroids.


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## JDenz

I defintly second that.  In fact I would be surprised if you found a state champ in wrestling or high level highschool kid in any of the major sports on supplements.
     This argument of what is good for you and what isn't good for you is never going to be won because there are creditabl sources on each side saying two diffrent things.   Bottom line scientists and doctors are split on there feelings of the benifit/risk scale.  Anyone that is not arguing to argue can see that.  But whatever side of the fence that you are on you have to admit that supplements do work.


----------



## Nightingale

well, there are studies on both sides for creatine.  my doctor says it is probably fairly safe if used properly under a doctor's supervision and in the proper dosages.  She said that the directions printed on the containers usually are incorrect, so check with a doctor about proper dosage because you have to take your body weight and stuff into account.  

However, I have not seen any reputable studies that say ephedra/ephedrine is safe...even though I repeatedly asked Cassidy for some.  He said he was going to find them, but never returned with any information. (reputable studies are those done by a researcher that is affilliated with a legitimate medical hospital or organization, who has nothing to gain from the research other than scientific knowledge...this means that they are not selling it, or being paid for their statements by the companies that make the drugs) 

Cassidy, if you've found the info, I would really like to be able to look it over.

-N-


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## cassidy

Just for those of you who never read this article I wrote on ephedra a while back.....just some food for thought. 

Facts about Ephedra - the FDA and the Future of "Fat Loss" 
By Terry Giles 


By all accounts, fat loss, dieting and weight-loss is one of the biggest categories in all of nutritional supplement land. People longing to lose fat and shape up drive over 5 billion dollars in product sales a year. That's a lot of money. Take a look around you, America is fat, obese and overweight people standing on every corner eating doughnuts and waiting in line at fast food drive-ins in search of their next meal. These people, through lack of understanding of basic nutritional principles are perpetuating their weight problems and continuing to get fatter. 

this is really long so probably three more posts. Give me 15 more minutes


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## cassidy

Enter the nutritional supplement companies, marketing fat loss and weight-loss products in magazines, on infomercials, and even on talk shows with the host touting the benefits of one of literally hundreds of weight-loss products and diet fads on the market. Few if any succeed, or even try for that matter, to educate the overweight population on proper nutrition and the need for a simple understanding of how to eat - in order to lose weight and keep it off. I have, as I have mentioned before, been in this industry for over twenty years and I have been directly involved in the development of some of the fastest selling and hottest fat loss and weight-loss products ever formulated. I have spent hundreds of hours in research and field-testing developing formulations that worked and offered good results to the end user. I have always been an advocate of educating the consumer on proper nutritional guidance as part of a fat loss or weight-loss program, so they would experience results and be able to better maintain their success


----------



## cassidy

Thermogenic formulas and fat loss products have advanced over the years and become better and more effective as collective research studies and advancements in the understanding of human metabolism have progressed. The "fat burners" of yesterday paved the road for the thermogenic support and fat loss catalysts on the market today. One of the most positive developments in research technology for fat loss has circled around the use of ephedrine alkaloids in fat loss and weight-loss products. There has been very substantial research done addressing the effects of ephedrine alkaloids and other nutrients and their collective use in promoting fat loss, specifically the mixture of caffeine and ephedrine alkaloids.


----------



## cassidy

Bodybuilders have always had a better understanding of nutrition and how to maximize lean mass and lower body-fat. 


With the stage set, look at the bodybuilding culture; we have understood more about diet, nutrition and fat loss than most doctors and nutritionists for years. We live, eat and sleep lean mass and low body-fat. Our physiques have dictated that we understand and practice good sound nutritional principles to achieve the best possible physical appearance. The practice of small meals eaten throughout the day is no mystery to us. We understand the physiology behind eating a balance of protein, fat and carbs and not counting calories as it relates to weight-loss. So the introduction of fat burners a decade ago was not as earth moving to us as to the general public as a whole.


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## cassidy

The evolution of fat burners into the new thermogenics over the past few years have been a bit more relative to our lifestyle and supportive of us reaching our ultimate goals. Increased thermogenesis and enhanced metabolism were important advancements in fat loss. More precisely, the latest advancement in fat loss technology - the new Thermometabolic compounds - speak directly to the needs of the athlete and bodybuilder. Promoting thermogenesis and enhanced metabolism with support components formulated to speak directly to the needs of the athlete. Specific neurotransmitters, advanced formulations harnessing the antioxidant capacity of specific nutrients and programmed release patterns, further enhancing the effects of metabolic support and thermogenic increase. 
Is it accurate to say Ephedra is dangerous? This is what the many opponents of ephedra want you to believe, along with pushing ephedra based products to be removed from the marketplace. Touting high numbers of illnesses, even death supposedly related to the use of ephedra based products.


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## cassidy

Granted that the misuse of ephedra based products can be unhealthy and even dangerous, but following the suggested use set forth by responsible manufacturers adhering to the national standards of use set forth for their goods is not. So to make a blanket statement as to the safety of ephedrine alkaloids and their use in nutritional supplements is misleading and actually wrong. Yet headlines like these have poured out of the media in reference to the use of ephedra based products and their safety. I have read so many articles written on the horrors of ephedra use that I couldn't just sit back and not address the issue at least as how it pertains to the sports nutrition industry in my view point. Most of these articles state that there are over 2 billion doses of ephedrine alkaloid based products consumed each year. This is probably a fairly accurate accounting and it represents a considerable amount of cash money.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *well, there are studies on both sides for creatine.  my doctor says it is probably fairly safe if used properly under a doctor's supervision and in the proper dosages.  She said that the directions printed on the containers usually are incorrect, so check with a doctor about proper dosage because you have to take your body weight and stuff into account.
> *



Believing every word that comes from your Doctor's mouth is just
as dangerous as overdosing on ephedrine.  They are led by what
the AMA tells them.  And history is full of times when doctors were
wrong.  Most Doctors will not give a positive comment about 
Chiropractors or Acupuncture (they take patients, e.g. money 
away from them) but that doesn't mean they're not successful
at treating certain things.  

Me personally, I take ephedrine free supplements, always.  But
there's a lot of heart problems in my family's history, and I don't
want to risk it.



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *However, I have not seen any reputable studies that say ephedra/ephedrine is safe...even though I repeatedly asked Cassidy for some.  He said he was going to find them, but never returned with any information. (reputable studies are those done by a researcher that is affilliated with a legitimate medical hospital or organization, who has nothing to gain from the research other than scientific knowledge...this means that they are not selling it, or being paid for their statements by the companies that make the drugs)
> *



That's because it's illegal.  You can't publish ANY studies that give
claim medical results, unless approved by the FDA.  I used to work
for a company that made reishi mushroom capsules.  You wouldn't
believe that literal piles of research documentation they had from
U.S. University studies, and independant labs outside of the U.S.
But none of them could be put on the website .


 JDenz,

I played sports in H.S. .. a boat load of them were on 
supplements.


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## cassidy

These articles go on to report that of those 2 billion doses, there have been more than 800 AERs (adverse event reports - reports of individuals who have had any type of adverse health reaction while consuming a particular product) filed in relation to ephedra based products, with some of those cases resulting in death. Pretty horrifying stuff if you just look at the surface (as most of these articles do). What these articles fail to report are the complete facts - they report numbers that do not report the facts. The numbers are incomplete and inaccurate. Fact of the matter is these numbers are terribly inaccurate - actually down right wrong. One report goes as far as to state " while the agency (referring to the FDA) won't verify how many people died as a result of taking the herbal stimulant (ephedra), used chiefly to promote weight loss, earlier reports put the number at about 30. A source with the latest cases, who asked not to be identified, says they include an additional 10 deaths".


----------



## cassidy

I would speculate that the reason this person didn't want to be named is simply because the GAO (United States General Accounting Office) stated in their report issued to the Chairman and Ranking Minority Member, Committee on Science and the House of Representatives (titled Uncertainties in Analyses Underlying FDA's Proposed Rule on Ephedrine Alkaloids) that in a random sampling of 92 out of 864 AERs that the FDA had compiled, 39 percent lacked information on the amount of product (ephedra) consumed, 41 percent lacked information of the frequency of use and 28 percent lacked information as to the length of time the product was used. Additionally, a total of 45 percent of the AERs lacked information on either dose, frequency, or duration of use and 24 percent lacked information in all three categories. A whopping 62 percent of the AERs randomly sampled by the GAO did not contain medical records, which are vital in determining potential underlying conditions that might have caused the adverse reaction (rather than just assuming ingestion of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids caused the problem).


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *These people, through lack of understanding of basic nutritional principles are perpetuating their weight problems and continuing to get fatter. *



Don't want to be rude here, but that's *not* it.  I wish it were
that simple.


----------



## cassidy

The FDA used only 13 AERs to set a dose and duration level for products containing ephedrine alkaloids. The report from the GOA states, "while FDA used these 13 AERs to set a dosing level, the agency did not perform a casual analysis to determine whether the reported events (referring to the reported reactions to ephedra) were, in fact, caused by the ingestion of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids. Our review of these 13 AERs found numerous problems that raise questions about the casual relationship between ingestion of the implicated product (ephedra) and the adverse events (reactions) observed". The report goes on to list that three of the AERs included physician reports that stated the cause of the event was not related to a dietary supplement. Three of the AERs were individuals reporting adverse events that they had reported prior to using and after ceasing to use ephedra based products - simply meaning three of the reports were filed by people who had similar problems even before ever using an ephedra based product and went on to have that same problem even after stopping the use of any such product. One of the 13 AERs did not have any medical records at all. 
kirk and everybody hold off I'm not done thank nightingale


----------



## cassidy

Some of the "reported" deaths related to use of ephedrine alkaloid products included the report of a man who shot himself. Also included in the "death toll" of ephedra-based products was a woman whose blood alcohol level was twice the legal limit and who died of a skull fracture after driving into a tree at 90 mph. Another included a man that died of environmental hypothermia. 

So to say the FDA's fact finding mission and accounting was inaccurate would probably be one of the biggest understatements of the century. The GOA completed and made public its complete report in early August 1999 concluding that the FDA did not have sufficient scientific basis for the proposals it set forth with regards to products containing ephedrine alkaloids. In addition to articles and reporters making inaccurate and misleading statements about deaths and injury caused by ephedra based products, they also make false and misleading statements about the regulation of nutritional supplements, stating the FDA has no control over the sale and manufacture of these items. This is equally as false as the references to numbers of actual AERs that involve ephedrine alkaloids.


----------



## cassidy

. Under the FDC (Food, Drug and Cosmetic) Act, the FDA has regulatory authority over drugs, devices, foods and cosmetics. In 1994 Congress passed the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) to redefine the FDA's authority in its premarket approval stance. Most drugs and devices, because of their inherent risks, cannot be marketed without FDA premarket approval. Most foods and dietary supplements, because of their inherent safety do not require such premarket approval. Due to the FDA's misuse of authority in the 1980's and early 1990's, Congress passed DSHEA, to reaffirm the original intent of the FDC Act, and as repeatedly recognized by FDA officials, under the FDC Act as revised by DSHEA, dietary supplements are heavily regulated, and the FDA has the regulatory authority and power to assure safety, and accurate, truthful labeling. FDA Commissioner Jane Henney testified in her confirmation hearings and has stated repeatedly that she "believes DSHEA provides FDA with the necessary legal authority to protect the public health". The Federal Trade Commission's authority to require that claims made for dietary supplements be substantiated by valid science further backs this power and authority. So to say that nutritional supplements go unregulated is simply just another misrepresentation of the truth.


----------



## cassidy

With all of this laid out before you, hopefully you have a better understanding of the whole ephedra issue as it relates to rumors, half truths and out and out lies. Scientific data supports ephedrine alkaloids and caffeine in their effects on enhancing and supporting metabolism and thermogenesis, and their role in promoting fat loss. My job has been to formulate to the industry safety standard that has been set forth wherein the total milligram dose of ephedrine alkaloids consumed in a serving be no more than 25 mgs. and that the total daily dose be no more than 100 mgs. To formulate a product that has observed effectiveness and delivers a point of differentiation from other thermogenic products on the market. As research progresses, and I have taken on new tasks and new roles within different companies, the job remains the same - and that is to develop the next generation of fat loss products that really work. To develop products which support the hard work and dedication of the athlete, bodybuilder, and our customers spending their hard earned dollars in search of results. Each time I sit down to work out formulations based on the latest research data and field test information, I am looking for the next "magic bullet", the twist that will make a positive difference. That difference has manifested itself in the current formulation of THERMICORE CRT from the Anabolic Drive Series by METRx. THERMICORE CRT represents state of the art development in the next generation of fat loss - a completely balanced formulation driven by an advanced time release pattern with scientifically engineered support components.


----------



## cassidy

What does the future hold??? 

Well given the current onslaught of the media and the negative press surrounding ephedrine and the situation with the NFL banning ephedra - the future is unsure and to be honest undetermined at this point. I have formulated numerous "best selling" thermogenics - which can't be discussed openly as they are protected by confidentiality agreements - but rest assured, with the changing face of regulatory environment and change within the industry in the attitude to ephedrine - all the major players are formulating and creating ephedrine free thermogenic products. Why? - Just in case the FDA pulls ephedrine from the shelves - the industry leaders can protect their finances by having products that work without ephedrine. This however raises some very serious observations and sets some very specific points of interest. First, you must ask yourself are you using ephedrine based products to lose weight (burn fat) or because you want that jolt - that energy burst that comes with using ephedrine. If you are using it for the energy jolt - I have bad news. Myself and probably hundreds of other researchers, scientists and product developers have been "searching" for an ephedrine substitute for years - a product or ingredient tat would deliver the same "bang" as ephedrine - as it relates to energy. Problem is - we all have come up pretty empty handed - some ideas - some possibilities - but nothing concrete - nothing for sure. However, on the other hand - if you are using ephedrine for fat burning - to support your metabolism for weightloss and don't care about getting that added energy jolt - there is huge potential and much progress on that front has been realized. Scientific data and clinical studies have verified we have gotten results in this regard - without ephedrine.


----------



## cassidy

When choosing any ephedrine product or fat burning product - just know why you are selecting it - is it for the fat burning support or just for the energy? Stay with reputable companies that employ cGMP and OTC manufacturing standards - stick with one of the big names - the companies that have the resources and procedures in place for substantial Quality Assurance, Analytical Analysis and Quality Control. Cheaper isn't always better.



There you go nightingale you don't need ephedra but it isn't dangerous either.............pucker up


----------



## cassidy

A kirk it is that simple.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *A kirk it is that simple. *



Okay, I want to discuss this with you.  Please understand that I
have been fighting my weight for years upon years, and I'm very
passionate about this subject.  

I also have a problem with communication.  Often, many have felt 
that I've been insulting or rude to them, when it was NOT my
intention, so PLEASE bear with me.

Shall we make a new thread to discuss this?


----------



## cassidy

Don't worry I took no offense from you, nothing is wrong at all with what you said. We can discuss it on our PM's if you like.:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *Don't worry I took no offense from you, nothing is wrong at all with what you said. We can discuss it on our PM's if you like.:asian: *



Well if you're gonna educate me, lets put it out there for others
to learn from.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Can you cite non-manufacturer studies that support this?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no organization that oversees nutritional suppliments quality or safety.

Studies on Ginseng for example have found that many of the over the counter packages contained minimal if any actual Ginseng.  

Mens Fitness magazine also on recent looks at supliments had a few things to say:
Men's Fitness November, 1999 
"While herbs are natural products, it's important to keep in mind that when stimulants such as ephedra (ma huang) are taken to enhance performance, they often function like drugs. "

Men's Fitness May, 1999 
"Caffeine and ephedra 
These two controversial stimulants are thermogenic on their own but have an even greater effect on fat loss when combined. They are added to several ready-made drinks or pills found in health-food stores, sometimes referred to by their respective herbal names, guarana and ma huang. 

The problem, again, is side effects. Overuse of caffeine and ephedra has been associated with increased heart rate, insomnia, nervousness and even death. "Scientific studies have shown that [the combination] works, but I'm not crazy about the potential for side effects," Kalman says. If you're on antidepressant medication, ephedra is not an option. "

Men's Fitness February, 2000 
"And if youre having any trouble sleeping, dont take fat-burning supplements that contain stimulating substances such as caffeine or ephedra. "


If it is safe, why has the NFL banned its use?
http://www.ephedrine-news.com/html/athletes.html


> In May 2001, the NFL was the first professional sports league to ban the use of ephedra, allowing any player that fails a random testing for ephedra to be suspended for four games. The NFL's decision to ban ephedra followed reports from experts saying the supplement "can cause seizures, strokes, and even death." Prior to the NFL's decision, players had been endorsing ephedra-containing sports drinks. In August 2001, Rashidi Wheeler, a Northwestern University football player, brought national attention to the dangers of ephedra-containing products when he collapsed and died during a workout. Wheeler had drunk the ephedra-based sports mix Ultimate Punch and used Xenadrine with teammates prior to practice.




Why does the Military discourage its use, and have banned sales of ephedra based products on its bases?  Certainly if any group out there needed a way to rapidly whip recruits into shape, and give their troops an edge in combat its the military.


> "The military services have documented adverse effects due to ephedra-use. The Navy Surgeon General stated that "all three military services have documented medical cases where significant adverse events and deaths have occurred among active duty service members taking certain dietary supplements, specifically preparations containing ephedrine alkaloids." This has resulted in the Navy banning the sale of ephedra containing dietary supplements from Pearl Harbor stores and the Marine base at Kaneohe Bay. Due to the reports of soldier deaths due to ephedra products, such as Metabolife, the Moncrief Army Community Hospital issued a statement saying, "We recommend that you don't take ephedra at all. The bottom line: Ephedra is a very dangerous herb that can kill."



Additional information: The Honolulu Advertiser
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Sep/04/ln/ln01a.html


> The Army and Air Force Exchange Service has banned the sale of popular ephedra-related dietary supplements in Hawai'i and elsewhere in the wake of reported adverse health reactions and the death of a Texas soldier.



From Honolulu Star-Bulletin
http://starbulletin.com/2001/02/09/news/story5.html


> 'All three military services have documented medical cases where significant adverse events and deaths have occurred among active duty service members taking certain dietary supplements, specifically preparations containing ephedrine alkaloids.'
> Vice Adm. Richard Nelson
> 
> NAVY SURGEON GENERAL




The Military, the NFL and many other sports associations either ban it outright or discourage its use.  California has recently passed laws concerning it and other states are expected to follow soon.  Study after study not run by those who profit from it continue to find reason for concern. 

Let us be frank here...the average person on the street does not have the discipline to watch their intake or count their calleries.  They will simply pop the magic pills and wait to lose weight.  They are not professional atheletes, they are not body builders.  The average person on the mat doesn't eat 8 meals a day and wash it down with weight-gain 2000.  This stuff is dangerous, and should not be readilly available for those who can not or will not use it safely (if that is possible) to obtain.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Addendum:  You folks were busy while I was writing.  heh.  Some of my points were addressed a few posts back.  Thanks!


----------



## cassidy

Oh don't even start with the military thing. I work special operations for the airforce and what little you know. They quit selling it because people were using it incorrectly. When I went through indoc which is like navy S.E.A.L.S training. We were reguraly given protein shakes ,vitamins, creatine,and glutamine. No use fro ephedra when your in that type of traing. You say misuse or to much of it is dangerous. Yes it is. Duh I mean come on now. You guys wanted scientific fact you got it from a guy with a phd in sports medicine. Wake up.


----------



## cassidy

"it is dangerous and shouldn't be readily available to the general public" so is alchohol,cigs,and cars but you don't see them stopping that .hmmmmmmmm why because it is our free right and if someone drinks they might drive and that is far more dangerous than ephedra. So lets just ban everything that could be dangerous including the famous no touch knockout


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I don't admit to being an expert.  I do however continue to find more and more information on the bad.  You have not to my recollection provided a single source other than your own well writen article.

I personally believe tobacco should be either removed from the market, or taxed at an additional $5/pack to offset the health issues associated with it.

Alchohol on the other hand, recent studies have shown may be of benefit in moderation.

Ah, thats the key...moderation.  

We licence drivers, require them to have insurance (which also has an idiot tax built in to allow for uninsurred drivers).  Cocaine, PCB, Etc were found to be health hazzards and made illegal.  They are now smuggled in and sold illegally.  I'm certain that when they took cocaine off the market, folks had similar feelings, since it was used in numerous health tonics for years.

Protein shakes and metabolism boosters are not the same thing.


I have pointed to about a dozen non-related articles on the health hazzards of ephedra.  _Can you provide non-manufacturer or non-vendor links to studies indicating its safety when used responsibly?_

We won't touch the no-touch KO here.


----------



## cassidy

Moderation is the key. Including supplements. The article wasn't written by me it was written by Dr Giles a PHD in sports medicine.


----------



## cassidy

Oh ya and these supps we are talking about with ephedra are metabolism boosters.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Ah.  Missed that part.  My apologies.

Is this the same guy?
http://www.musclemag.com/fsindex.php?topic=terrygilesbio


----------



## JDenz

Did you guys see the story about how the air force people are forced to take uppers before long bombing reconensence flights.    ephedra Is an awsome supplement it works doesn't mke you go crazy and is cheap leave it alone.  The NFL banned it because of Kory Stringer and weather or not that is why he died we will not know for a long time, if we ever do.  Thy over reacted because a player died and got suedfor a huge amount of $$$$$$$.  All of a sudden it is worse then being on roids or being cought with a trunk full of weed.  Or smoking crack rocks.  We tend o get things out of perspective.  The human body was built not to look like a body builder but to store fat and binge eating.  Anytime that you go agianst that, you are goin agianst nature.  I say so what.   Idon't want to be fat when I am thirty.  I want to look good get the girl.  I don't drink I don't smoke, F- u people that want to take my pills and powders away.  You are just jealous you don't have the largest arms in the world.


----------



## Nightingale

Cassidy-

its easier to just post a link to an article rather than retype the whole thing... or type it to a document and attach it.  

Everyone else:

This is the bio of the guy that wrote that article:



> Terry Giles - Bio
> 
> With over twenty five years experience in the industry directing product development, new innovations, formulations, new concept design, new manufacturing and production technologies as well as product strategies and marketing Terry Giles has reached a legendary status in the industry creating products that have totaled billions of dollars in retail sales.
> 
> He was the innovator and product mastermind behind many of the most successful sports supplements and supplement companies focused on human performance. Since joining the Royal Numico family of companies he has been tasked with heading up the development of the new Anabolic Drive Series, the evolution of MET-Rx, as well as addressing innovative new protein technologies and scientifically advanced products for the sports nutrition, human performance and active nutrition categories.
> 
> He has a unique angle on the industry, having come from the ground up as a professional athlete holding World Championship titles in the Martial Arts as well as titles in Bodybuilding, Powerlifting and other strength related sports. His background as a world renowned professional trainer and nutritional specialist, having coached literally hundreds of top professional and world class amateur athletes in a variety of sports to championship titles coupled with his education and experience in chemistry, exercise physiology, pharamcogenetics, pharmacokinetics, advanced performance nutrition.
> 
> His expertise as a product development researcher have given him an edge on innovative product development, target market strategies and advanced nutritional technologies.



The man is developing these drugs.  He has a financial interest in their success.  Of course he's going to say they're safe.

Cassidy,

Please show me a study or article by a reputable researcher that is not associated with a manufacturing or developing company that deals with these supplements.  I want to see unbiased third party research, where the researcher has nothing to gain financially by finding the drugs safe.

There's so many third party studies out there that say they aren't safe.  If they're actually as harmless as you say, surely at least ONE study agrees with you.

-N-


----------



## cassidy

show me proof that you obtained your brown belt from a legit kenpo school not some not some watered down mcdojo. Same sort of question don't you think. I saw your picture judging from the physique you have no room to pick and peck at what other people eat and take. Or give advice on the matter.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Hey Cassidy, why don't you stop with the smart *** comments and personal attacks and answer the damn question?

I did more research on Mr Giles (since you couldn't be bothered to do so.

Are you are unable to back up your belief in these drugs usefullness?

---------------
Complete article by Terry Giles 
http://econtent.musclemagazine.com/powerclub/index3.php?topic=FatBurners

There is a bio link there.
"Since joining the Royal Numico family of companies he has been tasked with heading up the development of the new Anabolic Drive Series, the evolution of MET-Rx, as well as addressing innovative new protein technologies and scientifically advanced products for the sports nutrition, human performance and active nutrition categories. "

"His expertise as a product development researcher have given him an edge on innovative product development, target market strategies and advanced nutritional technologies. "

If I read that right, he is a developer of METRx

So Cassidys' whole series of posts above is nothing more than ad copy from someone involved in the development of a product mentioned repeatedly in that article.   Mr. Giles own homepage (www.terrygiles.com) is little more than a funnel into the marketing of his products. The articles at musclemagazine.com all cross link to his e-store. He's also been involved with CyberGenics. http://www.ifpa-fitness.com/pdf/fall97FitNews.pdf

Assuming the picture there is Mr. Giles, he's got a hell of a development going on.  But he is not an unbiased party.  Any unbiased info?

And Jeff, stick to the Dr. Pepper.....Guys like Billy Graham and Lyle Alzado learned the hard way what roids can do to get those '24" pythons". Roids were once thought to be 'safe' too.


All that said about Mr Giles objectivity aside, if you can overlook the marketing hype inside his articles, he does in fact provide a very large amount of information.

Creatine - http://econtent.musclemagazine.com/powerclub/index3.php?topic=Creatine
Fat Burners - http://www.musclemagazine.com/fsindex.php?topic=FatBurners
Glutamine - http://econtent.musclemagazine.com/powerclub/index3.php?topic=Glutamine
Carbohydrates - http://econtent.musclemagazine.com/powerclub/index3.php?topic=Carbohydrates

He has also writen several other articles for Muscle Magazine, available thru the above links and Planet Muscle (http://www.planetmuscle.com). An article on Weight Training is at http://www.hwarang.org/Weights.html


----------



## cassidy

I know from PERSONAL EXPERIANCE. ONCE AGAIN PERSONAL EXPERIANCE. That it can be useful if USED CORRECTLY. So people that look like myself or Terry ,which by the way have never used steroids don't know what we are talking about. What the f ever.
Would you have the nerve to question a master as to whether his way is right because you haven't seen studies. Terry is a master the same a 7th degree in martial arts he is in supplements. Myself close to that. I don't give a rats a$$ what you guys think. I know because I use it reasonably and I win contests of natural bodybuilding events every year. Terry is a nationally ranked natural bodybuilder. Yes he develops supplements. So what he took pro-hormones off of his products because he found them unhealthy,when he took over that department for met-rx. Tell you what as soon as you can show me a doctor who says I am unhealthy. My kidneys are bad ,my liver is bad etc... Or if someone would like to challenge me to some sort of workout whether it be weights or cardio,I am all open . Unti l then the novices in this forum that believe everything they read, will be just that novices. That's like believing what the national enquirer puts out. Better yet we all read black belt magazine and we know they don't print the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So to all the skinny no muscle people and fat no muscle people how could you listen to some fat doctor  who supposedly knows everything but can't keep his/her fat *** in shape ,when you could listen to people who work out and compete for a living. Justify it as  you want I don't give a rats a$$


----------



## Bob Hubbard

So you admit to being unable to back up your claims with anything outside of marketing hype, personal attacks and insults?

You asked if I would ask a master pointed questions on the validity of his art?  Yes I would.  Why?  Because I don't believe every little gym rat who thinks this weeks magic potion is gonna make me the man of steel.

You are unable to document a SINGLE non-manufacturer source that indicates this crap is safe, yet call us stupid.  Gee, for years the tobacco companies said tobacco was safe.  Gee, few thousand deaths, some non-vendor RnD, and we now have laws and controls on the drug.

I've posted facts from numerous sources.  You've posted ad copy.  

You've used it safely.  I've experienced side effects.  Gee, but your musscular experience is somehow worth more than my puny one.  You've missed numerous opportunities to maturely and professionally present your case here, relying instead on personal attacks on those who disagree with you.

What next?  If we were having a face to face debate would you kick my *** to prove how right you are?  get real.


----------



## cassidy

Kick your *** ? No to easy and a waste of my time but as for never getting gains, I would pick apart your diet and foolish approach to supplements and training. How is a research and development guy from the leading sports supplement company not good enough? Fool


----------



## Nightingale

I ask you to simply show me ONE SINGLE REPUTABLE STUDY, and you ignore my question and challenge my rank.  I really should let that speak for itself.  

However, just because you asked SOOOOO nicely:

I obtained my brown belt from David Brock, who obtained his 6th degree black belt from Bob White, who was promoted under Mr. Parker, and is currently a 9th degree black belt and on the American Kenpo Senior Council.

I currently train with Michael Grilli, who is a student of Larry Tatum's and was promoted to black belt by Darrin Phillips and Dan Laxson.

And with regards to my "phisique", as you put it, I'm 17% body fat, which is about midrange for a female athlete.  Anything below 14% is considered too low for a woman.  However, from that dark photo where about all of me that you could see was my arm, I'm really not sure how you can possibly make an accurate judgement, since the rest of me was wrapped up in an extra heavyweight gi and half obsured by my instructor's fall.  In all honesty, your post seemed like a cheap shot to me. You couldn't answer my question, so you chose to attack my rank and my body instead.  How much lower can you get?


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *Just for those of you who never read this article I wrote on ephedra a while back.....just some food for thought.  *



and...

if Terry Giles wrote it, why does your first sentence say YOU wrote it?  And then a few posts down, you say you didn't write it.  you sound a little confused to me.


----------



## cassidy

Beyond confused terry wrote it look at it more closely it is him speaking not me.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> Kick your *** ? No to easy and a waste of my time but as for never getting gains, I would pick apart your diet and foolish approach to supplements and training. How is a research and development guy from the leading sports supplement company not good enough? Fool



Oh, so -YOU- are a "research and development guy from the leading sports supplement company"? 

I didn't ask you to analyze my diet, and the only suppliments I take are ginseng, a multivitamin and occasionally guarana.  Nothing too complex.  I don't do body building as I prefer to keep my flexability and not have huge veins bugging out all over my body.  My trainings my own business, and deals more in flexability than strength or scuplting, so your information would be of little use as I don't wish to compete with Hans or Frans...but you certainly seem pretty 'pumped up' there kid.

I repeat - You can not maturely debate this subject, falling back to marketing hype and personal attacks.  You are unable to answer the simple questions instead claiming it works for you, and that we should all be awed by your great (but not seen) build and claimed championships at bodybuilding.  However, just as you attack one of our valued members credentials I will question yours.

Whats your full name, when did you win them, where did you win them, in which organizations, and please provide links to their records indicating such things.  Otherwise, you are yet another anonymous knowitall self-important twit on the net.

Good day kid.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

It clearly states:



> Just for those of you who never read this article I wrote on ephedra a while back.....just some food for thought.
> 
> Facts about Ephedra - the FDA and the Future of "Fat Loss"
> By Terry Giles



So, where is the confusion?  Or is the first sentence a typo?


----------



## cassidy

Bodybuilding does not make you loose flexability it has only enhanced my martial arts. Terry is the R&D guy not me. And he to is a martial arts champion so how does it make you loose flexability. Nice try though. By the way not all ginsing is good for you. But I forgot you are a expert so you probably know that.


----------



## cassidy

That first sentence is from the same page you pulled up earlier and said it was a supplement ad who is the fool now? that was cut and pasted here from his add.


----------



## cassidy

Cassidy Mark Drake 

1st place in middleweight division Utah Natural contest 1998.
I have no I dea what a link would be.

1st place hawaii state natural bodybuilding championships 2000
middleweight class. No link. 

They don't post most state contests unless it is new york ,cali, or texas.

However the contest results and pictures are in the back of FLEX magazine May1998 issue. Research it all you want.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> Water is necessary to maintain our body temperature and complete digestion, circulation, absorption and excretion. Additionally you should look at the A-Z section as it refers to the availble information on ECA stack (Ephedrine, Caffeine, Aspirin) which can be utilized for additional metabolic stimulation and accelerated fat loss.
> 
> From the Inside
> Facts about Ephedra - the FDA and the Future of "Fat Loss"
> 
> By all accounts, fat loss, dieting and weight-loss is one of the biggest categories in all of nutritional supplement land.


The above is verbatum from the page I listed.

You wrote 





> Just for those of you who never read this article I wrote on ephedra a while back.....just some food for thought.
> 
> Facts about Ephedra - the FDA and the Future of "Fat Loss"
> By Terry Giles



So, again, where is the confusion? 


Again, I never claimed to be an expert...you did.

As far as the rest goes, its moot.


Your serve.


----------



## cassidy

Just for those of you who never read this article I wrote on ephedra a while back.....just some food for thought. 

Facts about Ephedra - the FDA and the Future of "Fat Loss" 
By Terry Giles 






exactly the way I pulled off his link dumba$$ where is the confusion? Go to musclemag.com search terry giles got to page 10
look under is ephedra really that bad. Pulled it just like it is. My hell


----------



## cassidy

By the way nightingale Bob White and Larry tatum both teach 
EPAK so what is the reasoning in going backwards in rank? Also fifteen years in a art supposedly and still no rnak higher than yellow. Could it be because your teacher thought there is no way you were equal to his brown belts?hmmmmm


----------



## Bob Hubbard

First of all Cassidy, you will stop with the personal shots, now.  This is an official warning.

Secondly, I followed your instructions and got exactly what I posted above.  Post the link you used.  What page 10?  What link?  The only search I can find takes you into the e-store.  I followed the link from his article on "How Does Creatine Work? " which is on the main page.  That took me to the series of pages I posted earlier.

Thirdly, I can find no information verifying your claims to winning or even participating in anything.  If someone else has a copy of that magazine and would verify it, it might help establish you as not being totally full of hot air.

Fourthly, if you can not debate in a mature fashion, you are not welcome here.

Its -that- simple.


You have been asked to provide unbiased proof of your claims.  You have not.  You continue to spout information that the established body of evidence indicates is harmful.  You can not provide a polite rebuttle, falling back to the resource of all who have no defendable argument, personal attack and insult.


If you can not post here in a non-insulting manner, please leave. Now.

Good day sir.


----------



## cassidy

Any local library should have a copy of that issue of flex. So she can question me with shots , But I can't question her bull claims?




o.k.:rofl: :asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I saw no shots from her aimed at you other than repeatedly asking for information, and 1 clarification.  I have however asked the other moderators to look at this thread as they will be coming in fresh.


----------



## cassidy

That's fine I have already spoke to one. It is a dead issue I don't care.


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *By the way nightingale Bob White and Larry tatum both teach
> EPAK so what is the reasoning in going backwards in rank? Also fifteen years in a art supposedly and still no rnak higher than yellow. Could it be because your teacher thought there is no way you were equal to his brown belts?hmmmmm *



I chose to remove my brown belt and put on a white belt because I wanted to repeat my belt tests through the new organization.  Mr. Brock and Mr. Grilli have very different teaching styles and kenpo philosophies.  

It was my choice to remove my current rank (which I still hold and still compete at) and wear a white belt (in the studio only. at seminars and tournaments I wear my brown belt).  My instructor did not ask me to wear a white belt. He told me that I could keep the brown belt.  I wanted to take it off.  It was my choice, and no one else's.

However, none of this is really any of your business.  My current kenpo rank and who it was received from has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not ephedra is safe, which is the subject at hand.  Whether my rank is yellow, brown, purple, black, blue, pink, or chartreuse, and whether I got it from Dave Brock, Mike Grilli, or Mickey Mouse, has nothing to do with my intelligence and ability to analyse data.  There have been many scientific studies that have come to a similar conclusion about the safety of ephedra.  Should I believe them, and my doctor, or should I believe you, some random person on the internet who can't show one shred of legitimate proof of your claims (if you could prove what you say, you probably would have posted a link to a legitimate study instead of someone's advertisment). I'm not disputing that the stuff works.  I'm disputing that it works safely.

Please refrain from any more personal attacks and rude comments.  Lets just have a calm, adult debate.


----------



## cassidy

Very respectable and Ican sort of see your reasoning in the belt thin I have just never seen it done that way. O.K. I'm sorry.


----------



## Bagatha

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> * Whether my rank is yellow, brown, purple, black, blue, pink, or chartreuse, and whether I got it from Dave Brock, Mike Grilli, or Mickey Mouse, has nothing to do with my intelligence and ability to analyse data.  . *



Wooo Go sister!


----------



## WilliamTLear

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *Very respectable and Ican sort of see your reasoning in the belt thin I have just never seen it done that way. O.K. I'm sorry. *




Cassidy,

I have been away from these martial arts forums for a while now, and boy was I shocked when I logged on to find a black belt slamming a color belt with personal attacks all the way down a string as long as this one.

Nightingale decided to start over at white belt due to the difference in the curriculums between the studio she studied at and the new one she attends now. Most Kenpo studios have a strict set of requirements for rank advancement, which usually involves learning a number of specific self-defense techniques between belt levels. The techniques that she learned at her old studio are not the same which are taught at the one she currently attends... In my opinion, she made a powerful statement by tying on the lower rank to reflect her skill level and knowledge in her present learning environment.

Your apology to Nightingale seems like a hollow one at best, and personally I find it insulting. I hope she gives your apology the merit it deserves and drops the lid on it before she flushes. Someone is going to leave this expereince with their dignity and honor intact, and brother I'm affraid you strayed from that path a long time ago.

Sincerely,
Billy "Give me a break" Lear :shrug:


----------



## cassidy

No it was actually meant as one. However I have never heard of a school taking away a rank. For instance yes I am a black belt, however when I started at my kajukembo school I still wear my blackbelt, with a blue piece of tape on the end for my rank at that school. No one has the right to strip rank except for who gave it. Like I said I can see her resoning for doing it herself and I can respect that. Now martial arts wise I know quite a bit. But understand I have been bodybuilding fo a long time,and she chose to call me out on something, I produced a valid point. She said it wasn't and she produced valid points. However none of the companies named in her posts were legit companies under fire. So that being said it was a sincere apology and understanding.


----------



## WilliamTLear

I am curious about who you are and where you are... You seem to be quite fond of the way an old friend of mine does thundering hammers. Do you know him?

Sincerely,
Billy


----------



## cassidy

As to who I am and where I am what would you like to know. Nust be quick I am off work in 30 minutes. Right now I am in abilene in the airforce. I suppose you are refering to  larry K. Well I have only met him once at a seminar at my old school. I was very impressed. He is a big,quick,powerful man. Very good technique and I thought it was a good example of the technique.
What else would you like to know?


----------



## cassidy

ok buddy ten more minutes until I leave what else would you like to know.


----------



## WilliamTLear

If you'd like to discuss things further, either about Larry Kongaika (a good man), or anything else for that matter, drop me an e-mail. My address is williamtlear@yahoo.com

:flushed:


----------



## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *However I have never heard of a school taking away a rank. *



She didn't say her rank was stripped bu the school.  She said she chose to wear a white belt _on her own[/b].  Nobody made her do this, she chose to do it on her own.

Cthulhu_


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by cassidy _
> *Now martial arts wise I know quite a bit. But understand I have been bodybuilding fo a long time,and she chose to call me out on something, I produced a valid point. She said it wasn't and she produced valid points. However none of the companies named in her posts were legit companies under fire.  *



I didn't "call you out" as you put it.  I simply asked you to produce scientific evidence to back up your claims.  You have failed (repeatedly) to do so.    And I'm not sure how you can say that THE MAYO CLINIC (referenced in my post of the news article way back on page 2, I think) is not a "legit company".  Its one of THE premier research hospitals and organizations in the United States.  

The American Medical Association was also mentioned in the same post.  This is from the national health information center's website.  



> The American Medical Association (AMA), founded in 1847, is the professional organization for physicians in the United States. The AMA disseminates information on scientific developments, medical practice, legislation, and professional education programs to members and the public. The AMA is active in legislative issues and in setting standards for medical practice and education.
> 
> The AMA publishes books, directories to medical schools and related professional education programs, bibliographies, booklets on the medical profession, nine monthly medical specialty journals, and drug evaluations. Serial publications: Journal of the AMA (JAMA), weekly--articles on clinical medicine and research developments, available in several languages; American Medical News (newspaper), weekly.



JAMA is one of the most widely read and widely respected medical journals in the world.


Here's some specifics about the Mayo Clinic's Research:

http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/2002/jan/7701a1.pdf

you have to have acrobat reader to read it, but just in case, this is his summary:



> "Ma huang [an herbal source of ephedrine] is temporally related to stroke, myocardial infarction [heart attack] and sudden death.  Underlying heart or vascular disease is not a prerequisite for ma huang related adverse events and the cardiovascular toxic effects associated with ma huang were not limited to massive doses..."



I think that about sums it up, yes?  but if you need more...here ya go.




> Mayo Clinic Health Information
> 
> Monday, February 25, 2002
> 
> Labels for Herbal Supplements DonÕt Tell Whole Story
> 
> ...Ephedra (ma-huang): Ephedra, a heart stimulant, is marketed as a safe way to lose weight. Any small benefit it offers on weight loss is outweighed by many health risks including headaches, high blood pressure, insomnia, heart attack, seizures, psychosis and stroke. It's even riskier if you have one of many health conditions including diabetes, heart disease, hypertension or seizure disorder...
> 
> Shelly Plutowski 507-284-5005 (days) 507-284-2511 (evenings) E-mail: newsbureau@mayo.edu



and here's yet another article that says the same thing by yet another researcher.

http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/2002/jan/7701e1.pdf

and, from the American Medical Association at http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/1616-6825.html



> The AMA urges the FDA to remove dietary supplements containing ephedra from the market, said AMA Trustee Ron Davis, MD. The risk/benefit ratio for these products is unacceptable.
> 
> ...Because of ephedras effects on the cardiovascular and central nervous systems, it may cause cardiac arrhythmias, heart attacks, strokes, seizures and sudden death in both previously healthy people, as well as in those with risk factors for these conditions.
> 
> More than 1,000 people have voluntarily submitted Adverse Event Reports (AERs) associated with ephedra to the FDA. Some of these describe events that have resulted in death or serious illness in young, presumably healthy, adults. There are many more actual adverse events. One company recently admitted to having received more than 14,000 AERs for ephedra since 1995....
> 
> Because dietary supplements are classified as foods under federal law, they are assumed to be safe and are subject to limited regulatory oversight. Dietary supplements containing ephedra have significant risks, which may be serious or fatal to people with pre-existing illnesses, as well as those who were previously healthy. They should be removed from the market.
> 
> The AMA is very concerned about the quality, safety and efficacy of all dietary supplements and urges Congress to require that dietary supplements be regulated the same way prescription and over-the-counter drugs are, Dr. Davis said.
> 
> For more information, or a copy of Dr. Davis testimony, please call:
> Brenda L. Craine
> AMA Media Relations, Washington D.C.
> (202) 789-7447



All I've asked you to do (repeatedly) is to show me a research study or a published research related document written or performed by someone who has nothing to gain financially from the companies that sell these drugs that says ephedra is safe.  Are you unable to do so?


----------



## Kirk

Again .. the reason why no reports exist is because it is ILLEGAL.

The FDA approval process is quite specific, and it is *against the 
law* to publish ANY material claiming health benefits unless it's
gone through the process.  The lack of evidence in this matter is
NOT NOT NOT NOT proof of a lack of health benefits!  There's
regulations in place to prevent any such claims.

And again, the AMA has been proven, time and time again to be
biased in their "facts".  They're an organization fully in control of
medicine in this country.  They claim dangerous risks in 
accupuncture and chiropractors.  Yet so many have FIRST HAND
knowledge of benefits associated to both.  The AMA can, and has 
been bought .. PLENTY of times.  The most recent one that comes
to mind is REDUX.  The AMA said it was okay.  Turns out it wasn't.
If the AMA is such an authority, explain this one to me.  

The fact of the matter is scientific research in this country is 
tainted by money.  They can prove anything you want them to,
if you pay them enough.  REDUX was a pay off by the 
pharmaceutical company that developed it, and it was passed.
Now a lot of people are still suffering as a result of your almighty
AMA's approval.


----------



## Rich Parsons

(* Sorry Kirk I was posting while you were also. *)

Cassidy My Friend,

I have had a friend(s) in the Navy and in the Air Force. They were given shots and pills depending upon what the 'event' they were preparing for. If it was night time I hear they could see in low light really well. One of the guys who was dropped from a ground mission, now has lost all his hair from some of the chemicals they gave him. Balding is not in either side of his family.

Yet you said to leave the military thing along since we knew nothing about it, I would like you to explain more. Since I know nothing about it. I do know that if you sign up for 'Service' to one of our armed forces then you no longer have all of your rights as a citizen. That is correct. The first is you are the property of the Armed Force you signed up with. You cannot leave without their premission, if you break a rule they can keep you indefinitely until they think the event has been sufficiently punished, even if it is years passed the contract you signed with them. For that date is only if you have been good and done your service to your country.

So, if the Armed Forces decides to pump you full of drugs, chemicals or what ever, what choice do you have. Many drugs and vaccines are tested on the Military before being release to the public. Did you know that the US Military gave people the Syphilis on purpose and then tried to come up with a cure.

Or at least that is how I understand it from the History Channel.

Now since most of the information I have is from talking to Military people or watching TLC/Discovery/History Channels I cannot post a link. For that I apologize, yet this is my experience talking down a friend or two who were still dealing with withdrawal or side effects of some of the stuff the military gave them. PROOF, none needed for how could the US Government allow this to happen.

You mentions the FDA, and I think the FDA is a JOKE. IN 1976 the U.S. Congress passed a LAW that Saccharine would be banned unless there was another U.S. Made sugar substitute on the market by 1982. They did not want to use the 'L' Sugars from Europe (* Note: some of the 'L' Sugars are now being approved and used here in the States Twenty Plus Years Later *) So, Searle Industries started to develop Nutra Sweet or Equal or Aspartame. They took out gag orders against their researchers that left the company they took them to court and filed charges against them for industrial espionage and ruined their careers, all because they wanted to be the approved sugar substitute to replace saccharine. Now a real interesting thing happened, in the 1980 election process, Searle Industries gave $1 Million Dollars to the Illinois State fund for the Republicans and also another $ 1 Million Dollars to the National Republican fund. Later they did the same donations but to the Ronald Reagan Illinois Fund and to his National fund. The donated a total of $4 million dollars to the campaign process.

So the Director of the FDA is appointed by the President of the United States of America. The party made their recommendations to the President to approve people for jobs. The first FDA Director then did very little in his six month stay in the Job before moving to the Commercial field, yet he approved Nutra Sweet a U.S. Made Sugar Substitute for dry goods and gum only. This opened the door. The testing had been by Searle Industries and all of it was 100% favorable. Nothing bad. The next Director of the FDA then approved the use of Nutra Sweet for POP and other products but not for baking. He did not authorize any additional FDA testing, he only stated that unless some independent testing came to light in the next year to prove otherwise, then it would be approved. He then also retired after six months. The next director actually served about two years and he approved some of the testing that followed, but that would take years to do and validate independently. The damage had been done, it was approved for general consumption. Now this director was lobbied by the Searle Industries and they did get him to approve the use of Equal et al with baking but less than 400 degrees F.

Now one would want to ask why less than 400 Degrees F. IT breaks down at or over 400 degrees F. HMMMM now the human body is only around 98.6 Degrees F yet, we process food. How do we do that? We have catalysts that lower the reaction temperature of the chemicals in our body. This allows for the dissolving of and burning of food, not just cooking it. The relative temperature in your stomach is 1100 to 1200 degree F with the acids and catalysts. If this is true, then what about the 400 deg F mark? Does this not concern you. It concerned me.

Now another step the FDA took to cover their collective asses was to take the allow the states to approve it process. All the Directors of the FDA when it came to Nutra Sweet did the same thing, they approved it ,kind of, but left it up to the states to approve independently.

New Mexico's single house of congress approved it blindly. Then one of the Biology PHD's at the U of NM wanted to keep his grad students busy and had then tell him the contents of the diet coke from his garage. Now the average temp in his garage was about 108 to 118 degrees, it was August. It had broke down into some really nasty drugs, Methyl Alcohol (* Causes Headaches and possible blindness *), it also broke down into Formic Acid (* Which can only be processed into Formaldehyde and stored in the liver *), and other chemicals including a chemical that shut down the sweet urge suppressant gland (* This is the natural chemical your body produces to tell you no more sugars *).

Also at MIT there was a another PHD who did some research and found out that Nutra Sweet changes the brain wave patterns of the young and the old and women going through menopause. 

OH yeah why did the Diet pops all have a warning about caution contains some ******* Drug?  Why was this then the number one thing that pregnant women were told to avoid? it effect their unborn childs brain waves and also the baby would test falsely to some really nasty birth defects. The actions taken to help the child for these birth defects would actually then hurt the childs development.

I found this and most of my data at the Library, in Magazines from 1980 through 1984. Also do some research for banned subjects in New Mexico etc,...



With respect to everyone 
:asian:


----------



## Kirk

Rich,

Great post!  I'd just like to comment on one thing:



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *
> So, if the Armed Forces decides to pump you full of drugs, chemicals or what ever, what choice do you have. Many drugs and vaccines are tested on the Military before being release to the public. Did you know that the US Military gave people the Syphilis on purpose and then tried to come up with a cure.
> 
> Now since most of the information I have is from talking to Military people or watching TLC/Discovery/History Channels I cannot post a link. For that I apologize, yet this is my experience talking down a friend or two who were still dealing with withdrawal or side effects of some of the stuff the military gave them. PROOF, none needed for how could the US Government allow this to happen.
> *



If military usage isn't enough proof of the postive aspects of
drugs usage, then it also isn't proof enough of the negative
aspects.  So whether the military takes creatine or not .. it doesn't
help either side in this argument.


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Rich,
> 
> Great post!  I'd just like to comment on one thing:
> 
> 
> 
> If military usage isn't enough proof of the postive aspects of
> drugs usage, then it also isn't proof enough of the negative
> aspects.  So whether the military takes creatine or not .. it doesn't
> help either side in this argument. *



excellent observation, Kirk.


I would also like to comment on your information regarding the AMA.  You said they were "bought" to say that redux is safe... I don't know this story and don't have time to research it, so for the moment, I will take your word on the matter.  However, please note that it wouldn't make any sense to "buy" someone to say a drug such as ephedra, which has the potential to make a lot of money, is NOT safe.  There is no financial reason to do so. The AMA has absolutely nothing to gain by saying that ephedra is not safe.  They are simply concurring with the research that has been performed by many reputable organizations, and somehow I doubt that someone is buying off every single independent researcher.  Again, that wouldn't make financial sense.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I would also like to comment on your information regarding the AMA.  You said they were "bought" to say that redux is safe... I don't know this story and don't have time to research it, so for the moment, I will take your word on the matter.  However, please note that it wouldn't make any sense to "buy" someone to say a drug such as ephedra, which has the potential to make a lot of money, is NOT safe.  There is no financial reason to do so. The AMA has absolutely nothing to gain by saying that ephedra is not safe.  They are simply concurring with the research that has been performed by many reputable organizations, and somehow I doubt that someone is buying off every single independent researcher.  Again, that wouldn't make financial sense. *



With regards to redux .. for it to be a prescription drug, it needs
AMA and FDA approval.  And since it's been pulled off the shelves,
and no longer has this approval.   It wasn't available for too long.
Who's at fault here?  Something had to go wrong with their 
$cientific te$ting ... DREADFULLY wrong, y'know?

With regards to their tests about ephedra.  Again, let me say, I
don't take it, and I don't claim to know either way about it's
safety.  But I don't feel that the AMA or FDA is an authority either.
Just like congress, both of these federal organizations have 
lobby.  Lobbyists can push for or against the approval, or the
DATE of the approval of medicinal treatments and medicines,
diet plans, etc.  Now if lobbyists can buy a congressman's vote,
logic states that they can buy the AMA's approval or disapproval.
They have, in the past had scientific research proving the terrible,
terrible hazards of eating eggs.  Yet now there's "new" research
by them telling us "wellll, they're actually kind of healthy".  At one
time they didn't approve of low carb, high protein diets, but now
they say the Zone diet "has positive effects".  

There's a surgical process awaiting FDA approval now, where
a MICROSCOPIC incision in your eye, and replacement of the
lens inside there (EXACTLY what cataract surgery is) fitting to
the shape of your eye to provide 20/20 vision.  It's been "held
up" in getting approved because the lobby of these laser surgery
eye places have spend a boat load of money on expensive lasers.

I hope I'm ONLY making the point that the AMA or FDA 's approval
on something .... well .. just isn't worth it's weight.  

Independent studies, well .. I'd still look into who funded the
study (follow the money).  Just my opinion here, but I bet that
I could fund research to prove damn near anything.  But who
has the money to prove that theory? LOL  

With regards to Reishi mushrooms (note my earlier post) there's
TONS of research outside the U.S., and I've seen one done by
UTSA.  That are HARD to get ahold of.  So many inside the U.S fear
retribution by the FDA.  I've seen "independent studies" done that
claim that it's just a mushroom, no benefits, no harmful side
effects.  I personally believe otherwise, and so do LOTS and LOTS
of people in Japan, China, France, England, as well as here.  But
I can't find squat that's too positive about it on the web.  Why is
that?


----------



## Nightingale

I'm not saying that the AMA (a private organization) or the FDA (a government oraganization) is the end authority on anything, and as I said before, I don't know anything about mushrooms or redux, and I don't have time to research it, so I'm going to stick to the topic of ephedra (which I was considering taking, so I researched it extensively) and I ask you to do the same for the sake of keeping the debate on track.  

What I am saying is that I have independent scientific research to back up my opinion.  I have LOTS of independent scientific research to back up my opinion, funded by many different grants and organizations.  Cassidy does not seem to have any independent research at all to back up his opinion, only his personal experience.  While personal experience definitely carries weight, the studies I looked at have taken into account the personal experiences of THOUSANDS of people, and came to a conclusion that there are problems with this drug.

Who should I trust?  Scientists from the Mayo Clinic, who have excellent reputations in their fields, or one single random person on the internet who says that he and his buddies have had a good experience?


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Again .. the reason why no reports exist is because it is ILLEGAL.
> 
> The FDA approval process is quite specific, and it is against the
> law to publish ANY material claiming health benefits unless it's
> gone through the process.  The lack of evidence in this matter is
> NOT NOT NOT NOT proof of a lack of health benefits!  There's
> regulations in place to prevent any such claims.*



I am not and have never denied the benefits of ephedra.  What I am saying is that according to the research, the benefits are not worth the risk.

And frankly, these companies do publish advertisments claiming the health benefits of their drugs.  They claim weight loss and more energy.

From the Muscletech Website regarding Hydroxycut:



> This stuff rocks! In an 8-week study, researchers found that the primary ingredient in Hydroxycut, on its own, lowered bodyweight in subjects by a whopping 4.8 percent. On average, the subjects in the study lost 10 pounds during the 8-week period, combining a 2000-calorie per day diet and 30 minutes of walking, 5 days per week. The investigators found that this key ingredient works by curbing appetite and inhibiting bodyfat formation. Add Hydroxycut to your sensible diet and exercise plan and experience it for yourself!



Sounds like they're claiming health benefits to me.

From the Xenadrine website:



> Xenadrine RFA-1 is the one diet supplement clinically proven to dramatically increase the rate of fat-loss significantly more than diet and exercise alone.
> 
> Never before in the history of diet supplements has a natural product been documented to produce weight-loss results of this extraordinary magnitude.
> 
> In fact, Xenadrine burns fat so fast, it has suddenly become the best-selling diet supplement in America.
> 
> Now you, or anyone you know, can lose significant amounts of stubborn weight and get back the lean, toned body of your youth.
> 
> As a result, you no longer have to ask yourself, How can I possibly lose this weight. The question now ishow much weight do you want to lose? And when do you want to lose it?
> 
> With Xenadrine at your side, your days of being overweightare over!



Again, they're claiming health benefits.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The fact that the military does something or doesn't do something only points out 1 thing - that they do what they want.  To me, it speaks heavily that the specifically ban a substance.

I tend to agree with the AMA and FDA comments.  Those however are 2 sources out of many that have been cited.

Kirk, show me a link to something verifying that it is illegal to comment.  

Herbs are not controled by any particular group for reasons of purety, safety, or consistancy.  It has been shown in unbiased tests that often times what you buy is not what you get.  Ma Haung is an herb.  I have seen similar warnings about Yohimbe (natures viagara) and those with heart problems...but never on the label.

We have over 2 dozen studies that say ephedra is bad.  We have seen nothing but ad copy that says otherwise.  Show me -1- study.  US Laws do not apply in other countries...find us 1 non-US study that supports the claims this herb is safe.  I've gone through 5 search engines, a few hundred pages and found none that aren't tied to a manufacturer.

Note: Xenadrine is a product containing ephedra


> Tom Venuto is a certified strength and conditioning specialist, a certified personal trainer and a performance nutrition specialist who has been developing individualized nutrition programs for bodybuilding, fitness, weight loss and weight gain since 1987.
> "The bottom line is that Xenadrine, along with all the other herbal "thermogenic" products work but they don't work miracles. They are effective pre-workout stimulants and mild fat burners. They don't work without a proper training and nutrition program and they are not a substitute for exercise. The only proven way to lose body fat is by reducing calories and increasing activity. Make sure your diet is in order first because no herbal product will help you if you have a poor diet. Once you're eating nutritiously, restricting your caloric intake, and working out aerobically and with weights, then Xenadrine (or the ECA stack) might give you that extra boost that you're looking for. "



ephedrine is 
banned by the International Olympic Committee. 
banned by the US Millitary
banned by the NFL
banned by the NCAA 
banned by the several bodybuilding organizations
sales of ephedrine-containing products in Texas have been restricted to those over age 18

If there wasn't a risk associated with it, why would these and many other organizations that rely on the benifits ephedra provides ban it?


More info 
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/pierce7ii.htm
http://www.fastathlete.com/ask.html
http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/brent14.htm


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Kirk, show me a link to something verifying that it is illegal to comment.
> *


* 

Well I don't see why the burden of proof falls to me.  It makes
perfect, sound logical sense that the law exists to me.  Too many
charlatans claim "natural AIDS cure" and what not.  

Plus, have you seen the FDA's website??? It's HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But since you asked, I'll give you this ONE. It's from the FDA's
website (check the URL).

http://www.fda.gov/cder/warn/cyber/2002/CFSANhealthResouces.htm 

Nightingale, again, I don't take products with ephedra.  But the
point remains that studies in this country aren't to be taken as
solid fact.  History says otherwise, and the proof says otherwise.

I know I sound like a conspiracy nut, but facts are facts.  Too
many independent studies end up eating their words.  Check
out drugawareness.org you might be surprised.  
Independent studies aren't always as "independant" as they
claim.  

Note .. the most shocking stuff you may find are on SSRI's.*


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Thanks Kirk.  I'l check those out.  Wasn't 'burden of proof', just wanted a link to check on what ya refered to.



> But the
> point remains that studies in this country aren't to be taken as
> solid fact. History says otherwise, and the proof says otherwise.


Right, thats why I said anywhere in the world.  I'm certain other countries have had studies done in them.

All I've been asking is for *1* website thats a reliable source, that is *not* connected to a manufacturer or vendor.

Obviously someone of intellegence wouldn't just walk into a gym, read a few brochues n start popping magic pills.  So, I'm asking for independent research to refute the mounting number of claims this stuff is harmful.

I called up a local Golds Gym and asked them about it.  They said the stuff works (no ones been denying that), but that there were safer alternatives that gave comparable results.


I repeat:
We have over 2 dozen studies that say ephedra is bad. We have seen nothing but ad copy that says otherwise. Show me -1- study. US Laws do not apply in other countries...find us 1 non-US study that supports the claims this herb is safe. I've gone through 5 search engines, a few hundred pages and found none that aren't tied to a manufacturer.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I repeat:
> We have over 2 dozen studies that say ephedra is bad. We have seen nothing but ad copy that says otherwise. Show me -1- study. *



When I was working on the site for the mushrooms, I *saw* 
a lot of research papers.  But I couldn't find ONE on the net at
that time to link to either (about the benefits of the 'shrooms).
Of course I couldn't find any saying it was BAD either (being fair).
And this was from ANY country.  But the Japanese use LOADS 
upon LOADS of this stuff.

Are yours saying "bad" or saying CAN BE bad?  I haven't checked
out research on it, but I've seen news reports, and they're just
saying it can be easily overdosed on.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Additional Information:
http://yoga.about.com/library/weekly/aa110900a.htm


> FDA Investigates Herb Ephedra
> by Cathy Wong
> 
> Results from a study conducted at the University of California, San Francisco and funded by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) were released on November 6th, more than six weeks prior to the scheduled publication date in the New England Journal of Medicine. Researchers examined the safety of popular dietary supplements containing ephedra and concluded that they pose serious health risks to some consumers, indicating a need to identify risk groups and establish guidelines for safe daily doses and warnings.



Her article further goes on to state:


> Reasons for Potential Adverse Effects
> 
> 1.  Use of ephedra for unproven purposes. An herb with a long history of clinical use, ephedra became controversial in the United States over the past decade because of its use for unapproved purposes such as for *weight loss, as a mental stimulant, to enhance athletic performance*, and even as a component of an illicit drug. As a result, adverse reaction reports became increasingly common, and the FDA and government officials tried to limit the use of ephedra in supplements, the level of alkaloids per dose and per day, and, in some states, access to ephedrine-containing products.
> 
> 2. Effects of ephedra are multiplied when combined with caffeine and aspirin. One of the main problems with the use of ephedra in weight loss and athletic performance preparations is that caffeine (or other methylxanthines) is often added to the preparations to increase the weight loss and stimulating effect of ephedra. In the study to be published next month, it appears that many of the ephedra-containing products studied may have contained caffeine, a combination which may be more likely to result in an adverse event. Commercial products often contain caffeine or caffeine-containing herbs such as cola (Cola nitida), guarana (Paullinia cupana), and mate (Ilex paraguariensis).
> 
> In addition, few products warn against having drinks containing caffeine, such as coffee or cola, while taking ephedra.
> 
> White willow (Salix alba) and other herbs similar to aspirin have also been found in ephedra preparations.
> 
> 3. Self-prescription of ephedra without professional supervision. Ephedra has very important clinical uses and has a long history of use for treating respiratory disorders. However, each persons condition is unique and the guidance of an appropriately trained health practitioner should be sought when considering any herbal treatment. For example, someone may not recognize guarana as a caffeine-containing herb when reading the label, or may take St. Johns Wort with ephedra, unaware that it acts as a MAO-inhibitor that should not be taken with ephedra. When seeking professional supervision, be aware that physicians often do not receive formal training in botanical medicine and may not be able to recognize these constituents.
> 
> 4. Improper labeling and warnings. Herb industry groups and the American Herbal Products Association attempted to establish label warnings and dose limits in 1994. In 1997, the FDA proposed further regulation to prohibit the sale of ephedra for unproven purposes and to restrict herbal supplements from containing more than 8 mg of total ephedra alkaloids per dose, with a recommended total dose of no more than 24 mg per day. This proposal was criticized in 1999 by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), a government monitoring agency. The GAOs report, entitled Dietary Supplements: Uncertainties in Analyses Underlying FDAs Proposed Rule on Ephedrine Alkaloids, questioned the reliability of methods used to gather adverse effect information and establish dosing guidelines.
> 
> The actual amount of ephedra in the herb preparation can also vary widely from the quantity stated on the label, especially with manufacturers of questionable quality control methods.



Her references are listed as:


> References
> Bensky D, Gamble, A.  Chinese Herbal Medicine: Materia Medica.  Seattle: Eastland Press, Inc 2000; 391.
> 
> Physicians Desk Reference (PDR) for Herbal Medicines (2nd ed.). New Jersey: Medical Economics Company, Inc.  2000; 488-489.
> 
> The Complete German Commission E Monographs - Therapeutic Guide to Herbal Medicines. M Blumenthal, WR Busse, A Goldberg, J Gruenwald, T Hall, CW Riggins, RS Rister (eds.) S Klein and RS Rister (trans.) 1998. Austin: American Botanical Council; Boston: Integrative Medicine Communications; 125-6.
> 
> Werbach, MR and Murray MT.  Botanical Influences on Illness: A Sourcebook of Clinical Research.  California: Third Line Press, Inc., 2000.
> 
> Herbal Medicine Expanded Commission E Monographs.  Blumental M, Goldberg A, Brinckman J. American Botanical Council with Integrative Medicine Communications First Edition. Newton, MA 2000
> 
> Mills S, Bone K. Principles and Practice of Phytotherapy. London: Churchill Livingstone, 2000; 57-8.



Please read the full article.



The NEJM lists the following documents:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/343/25/1833
Morgenstern, L.B., Viscoli, C.M., Kernan, W.N., Brass, L.M., Broderick, J.P., Feldmann, E., Wilterdink, J.L., Brott, T., Horwitz, R.I. (2003). Use of Ephedra-containing products and risk for hemorrhagic stroke. Neurology 60: 132-135 [Abstract] [Full Text] 

Marcus, D. M., Grollman, A. P. (2002). Botanical Medicines -- The Need for New Regulations. N Engl J Med 347: 2073-2076 [Full Text]   

Skinner, C. M., Rangasami, J. (2002). Preoperative use of herbal medicines: a patient survey. Br J Anaesth 89: 792-795 [Abstract] [Full Text]

Grollman, A. P. (2002). Commentary #3 on Astin's Special Theme Commentary. Acad Med 77: 871-873 [Full Text]   

Markman, M. (2002). Safety Issues in Using Complementary and Alternative Medicine. J Clin Oncol 20: 39s-41 [Abstract] [Full Text] 

Gilbert, G. J., Petro, D. J., Singhal, A. B. (2002). Cerebral vasoconstriction and stroke after use of serotonergic drugs. Neurology 59: 651-652 [Full Text]   

Jordan, J., Tank, J., Shannon, J. R., Diedrich, A., Lipp, A., Schroder, C., Arnold, G., Sharma, A. M., Biaggioni, I., Robertson, D., Luft, F. C. (2002). Baroreflex Buffering and Susceptibility to Vasoactive Drugs. Circulation 105: 1459-1464 [Abstract] [Full Text]   

Metcalfe, K., Corns, C., Fahie-Wilson, M., Mackenzie, P. (2002). Chinese medicines for slimming still cause health problems. BMJ 324: 679-679 [Full Text]   

(2001). La Direction des produits de sante naturels : un peu de scepticisme naturel. Can Med Assoc J 164: 615-615 [Full Text]   

(2001). Some natural scepticism about the Natural Health Products Directorate. Can Med Assoc J 164: 613-613 [Full Text]  

Yanovski, S. Z., Yanovski, J. A. (2002). Obesity. N Engl J Med 346: 591-602 [Full Text]   

(2000). Risks with Phenylpropanolamine and Ephedra Alkaloids. Journal Watch (General) 2000: 1-1 [Full Text]   

(2001). Dangers of Dietary Supplements with Ephedra Alkaloids. Journal Watch Cardiology 2001: 3-3 [Full Text]   

Haller, C. A, Dyer, J. E., Ko, R., Olson, K. R (2002). Making a diagnosis of herbal-related toxic hepatitis. eWJM 176: 39-44 [Full Text]   

Ernst, E. (2001). ""Alternative"" Therapies For Asthma : Reason For Concern?. Chest 120: 1433-1434 [Full Text]   

Boucher, J. L., Shafer, K. J., Chaffin, J. A. (2001). Weight Loss, Diets, and Supplements: Does Anything Work?. Diabetes Spectr 14: 169-175 [Full Text]   

Margolis, M. L. (2001). A Survey of the Use of Herbal Agents Among Philadelphia Veterans Affairs Medical Center Pulmonary Outpatients. Chest 119: 1981-1982 [Full Text]   

Hutchins, G. M., Traub, S. J., Hoyek, W., Hoffman, R. S., Haller, C. A., Benowitz, N. L. (2001). Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedra Alkaloids. N Engl J Med 344: 1095-1097 [Full Text]   

Fleming, G. A. (2000). The FDA, Regulation, and the Risk of Stroke. N Engl J Med 343: 1886-1887 [Full Text]   

Talalay, P., Talalay, P. (2001). The Importance of Using Scientific Principles in the Development of Medicinal Agents from Plants. Acad Med 76: 238-247 [Abstract] [Full Text]


----------



## Kirk

Well, my opinion on that is of course AMA physicians, who can't
get kick backs for suggest ephedra products, are of course going
to say it's bad for you.  Just like they do with chiropractors and
chinese healing methods, and accupunture.  What you've just
provided above is nothing but this MD or that MD, this AMA journal
of medicine, or that.  Basically .. AMA/FDA people.  Quote as many
as you like, you're still giving me ONE source. 

That being said ...  
This link starts with a Harvard study, and if you keep
scrolling, there's more.  E.g. St. Luke's Hospital / Columbia 
University.  

I found independent studies galore.  The results, yes were 
published on a suplement company's website, but the results
were not only posted, but the company doing the test was
listed.  In short order I called Miami Research Associates who
were listed by one company.  I asked them if they truly did do
the study (which was in fact listed on MRA's site).  I told them 
what the company's claim of their research was about ephedra, 
and asked if in fact it was truley thier findings.  They said it was.  (I spoke with Mary in the nutrion research department).


----------



## Kirk

The biggest problem now is that I have personally given an 
endorsement to take ephedra, when I in fact don't take it
myself.  I have in the past, and got REALLY wired and shaky as
a result.  I also heard that one shouldn't be taking it if you have
a heart condition.  While I don't have a heart condition a bunch of
my family members do, so I've opted to try ephedra free products.

So DO NOT take my word for it.


----------



## Sanddragon

Quick Question here, I read thru mounds of info, the flames, the attacks, the claims that I am this and I am that. That ephedra is a killer and that no it is the best thing since partially burned toast with Jam. However I did not ever see an answer to the question that all this was about.  Creatine and if it is benificial or not? 

Now I may have missed it but I saw everyone get worked up about many things mentioned above and no indepth posting about creatine. I apologize if I missed it but after reading this entire expectionally long winded thread this is were it lead me.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

SandDragon, you make a -very- good point, and it is to answer it I just finished pulling out the Creatine information and putting it in its own thread.


*Administrator Note: 

The discussion of Creatine has been moved to its own thread, due to this one turning into a supliment debate.  As there is much value in this debate, and to seperate the original intent (which has gotten lost in here I think) we have refocused -this- thread on the topic of Supliment usage pros/cons.

Thank you.*


----------



## Nightingale

Kirk,

The study you referenced was a "double blind" with a total of 167 people.  That means that 84 people received a placebo, and 83 received the actual drug.

83 people is an extremely small sample size, but the researchers did note that the participants experienced rapid heart rates, increased blood pressure, along with quite a few other side effects.

Also, take note that the participants of this study underwent heavy medical screening prior to starting the program. They were given EKGs, heart monitors to wear for 24 hours straight, screened for QT duration, tachycardia, premature heartbeats, and other heart problems.  Anyone with any abnormalities, no matter how insignificant, was excluded.

The average person cannot undergo this kind of health screening prior to starting a fitness regime.   A large concern with ephedra products is that they may aggrivate conditions that are already present but yet undiscovered.  People cannot afford (and their health insurance will not cover) this kind of cardiac workup.

I'm not saying that its something you shouldn't do because of a possible pre-existing condition.  However, the studies I referenced did state that ephedra poses a risk even if there is no preexisting condition (and I quoted more than the AMA).


----------



## Nightingale

sorry, Kaith...lol. you and I posted at the same time.  can you move my post to the new thread?




mod note: hit edit instead of quote...sorry


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Kirk,
> 
> The study you referenced was a "double blind" with a total of 167 people.  That means that 84 people received a placebo, and 83 received the actual drug.
> 
> 83 people is an extremely small sample size, but the researchers did note that the participants experienced rapid heart rates, increased blood pressure, along with quite a few other side effects.
> 
> Also, take note that the participants of this study underwent heavy medical screening prior to starting the program. They were given EKGs, heart monitors to wear for 24 hours straight, screened for QT duration, tachycardia, premature heartbeats, and other heart problems.  Anyone with any abnormalities, no matter how insignificant, was excluded.
> *



And can you provide proof that the same thing did NOT happen
in the studies you quoted?  That's how research works, and that's
the whole entire point I've been trying to make.



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *and I quoted more than the AMA *



In my opinion, you didn't.  Is the doctor a U.S. physician?  Then
he's a member of the AMA.  Docs do NOT want to cross them, they
screw their careers up if they do.  Was the journal a medical
journal?? Then it's the AMA  (written by U.S. Doctors).


----------



## Bob Hubbard

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *sorry, Kaith...lol. you and I posted at the same time.  can you move my post to the new thread?*


* 

Actually, I think it fits here, unless you were writing about Creatine?*


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *And can you provide proof that the same thing did NOT happen
> in the studies you quoted?  That's how research works, and that's
> the whole entire point I've been trying to make.
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, you didn't.  Is the doctor a U.S. physician?  Then
> he's a member of the AMA.  Docs do NOT want to cross them, they
> screw their careers up if they do.  Was the journal a medical
> journal?? Then it's the AMA  (written by U.S. Doctors). *



so you're saying that every single study done in the united states is biased?!  :rofl: 

and doctors are not required to be members of the AMA.  The AMA is a private organization.  Many doctors are not members.

I have three doctors and one medical researcher (PhD, not MD) in my extended family.  Two of the three doctors are not AMA members, and neither is the PhD.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *so you're saying that every single study done in the united states is biased?!  :rofl:
> 
> and doctors are not required to be members of the AMA.  The AMA is a private organization.  Many doctors are not members.
> 
> I have three doctors and one medical researcher (PhD, not MD) in my extended family.  Two of the three doctors are not AMA members, and neither is the PhD. *



Well not card carrying members .... but they still are IMO.  This is
where we split, and can't discuss any further.  You believe a Phd
said it, and MD said it .. so it must be true.  And I just don't buy
that for one second.  Ask these same friends of yours about 
accupuncture, and chiropracty.  On second thought, don't.  
Because if you come back and say that they endorse either one,
I won't believe you anyway.  I don't buy that western medicine
knows all, sorry.  And I never will.  

Dr Barry Sears, the author of the zone diet books has been 
ridiculed by the medical community.  He's earned his medical 
degree just the same as the others.  But he has opposed them.  
So many in the medical community call him a quack.  But 
THOUSANDS of people have been able to stop taking diabetes 
medication because of him.  By the logic you've presented on this 
thread, he's still WRONG.  Because so many independent studies 
prove that his high protein diets are so terrible.  Yet TENS OF 
THOUSANDS of people are healthier now than they have been, 
ever in their lives?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The american medical community is begining to open their eyes top eastern concepts.  My own doctor recomended I see a chiropractor for an injury I had, and we had a long discussion about accupuncture and herbs.   He was also a younger doctor, not one thats 30+ years out of school and behind in his journals.  In fact my health plan covered herbs, accupuncture and chiro as part of the package.

There is extensive information going back thousands of years on these herbs in Chinese medicine.

From Herbalist Review, Issue 2000 #2: 
http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2000-2.html


> [2] Proper and improper uses of ephedra
> 
> Ephedra, or ma huang, is a useful herb if used as
> indicated, but can be dangerous if used to excess
> or for conditions for which it may only mask
> symptoms. Many of the currently popular uses of
> ephedra would be considered inappropriate from the
> perspective of the TCM pharmacopoiea. The TCM
> pharmacopoiea states that it
> - Releases the Exterior and disperses Cold;
> indicated for TaiYang-stage Exterior Chill; acts by
> inducing sweating.
> - Circulates Lung Qi; relieves cough and asthma.
> - Promotes urination and relieves edema
> accompanying External Evil.
> 
> Ephedra is to be avoided or used cautiously in
> Deficiency conditions characterized by excessive
> sweating; it may aggravate high blood pressure and
> cause restlessness and tremors.
> 
> One of the primary active ingredients of ephedra
> is ephedrine, which is a bronchodilator and is
> especially effective when bronchospasm is present.
> It is also diaphoretic, vasoconstrictive, and
> raises blood pressure.
> 
> To use ephedra for weight loss or as a stimulant,
> two popular uses, risks exhausting the Qi, resulting
> in adrenal exhaustion and chronic fatigue. Its
> classification as a "tonic" by certain sources is
> misleading, as its long-term side effects are just
> the opposite, resulting in exhaustion. As for
> weight loss, ephedra can temporarily increase
> metabolic rate and diuresis, which can enhance
> short-term weight loss, but if underlying metabolic
> factors are not corrected, long-term consumption
> of ephedra will lead to not only exhaustion, but a
> rebound of weight gain.
> 
> Furthermore, many Americans are already suffer some
> type of exhaustion (of Qi, Yin, Yang, or Blood) due
> to stress, overwork, and poor diet, and any use of
> ephedra, especially without counteraction by other
> herbs, may risk aggravating the condition.



Another detailed description of Ephedra is at
http://www.drgenie.com/Naturaopathic/E/Ephedra.htm


From : 	EPHEDRA NEWSLETTER #1 	by Lennart & Sanne  The Ephedra Site
http://www.ephedra.demon.nl/news/newsletter1.html


> -------------------------------------
> A word of warning
> From HeK
> -------------------------------------
> The problem with Ephedra sinensis (and other Eurasian
> species of Ephedra - there is no ephedrine to speak of
> in the American species) is that we as are a culture are
> -used- to 4- or 5-hour drugs. Take coffee, or aspirin,
> and it'll be out of your system in 4-5 hours. Ephedrine
> will let you stay jittery for 8 hours - but because you're
> used to dosing yourself every 3-4 hours you overdose -very-
> easily on ephedrine. Especially if you abuse the plant
> (ie. you use it to keep awake), or worse, mix it with
> things like caffeine and aspirin to -really- get that
> weight down.
> 
> That way lays your first (and perhaps last) heart attack.
> That way lay a -lot- of jittery nervous overstrung
> adrenergic problems. And that way lays madness. Chinese
> Ephedra (Ma Huang) is not -used- by the great unwashed
> masses in the US, it's -abused-. That's a big difference,
> even if it only looks like two letters.
> 
> As an herb Ma Huang has its uses in TCM, and in western
> herbalism it's used in small discrete doses for things
> like bronchial spasms. NOT long-term, nor for frivolous
> things like "but I have to keep awake". Herbalists try to
> keep you -in- balance, not get you -out- of balance.
> If you value your health you should do the same.
> 
> --
> Deze twee artikelen zijn ook te vinden op:
> ftp: metalab.unc.edu or sunsite.sut.ac.jp
> /pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare/herbal-medicine/faqs/
> --



==================================
http://www.eardoc.com/Ma-Huang.htm


> A Note about Ma-Huang (Ephedra)
> Ma Huang, otherwise known as Ephedra, is a commonly used herb in the Oriental Pharmacy. It is rarely used by itself, but is utilized as an ingredient in formulas, which can protect the body from the dispersing qualities of MaHuang.
> 
> The properties of Ma Huang are:
> 
> Increasing urination, sweating, and reduces edema [lung]
> Clears the lungs, useful for either interior [asthma,COPD] or exterior [colds,flues] wheezing and coughing.
> In combination with other herbs, has a long history of treating various respiratory diseases.
> Research has shown:
> 
> Ephedra can lower body temperature in rats, but overdose raises the temperature in humans.
> It has a systemic diaphoretic effect [sweating].
> Ephedra raises blood pressure and vasoconstricts, but it can vasodilate coronary blood vessels.
> Can cause insomnia, restlessness, and tremors.
> Overdose can cause arrhythmias.
> 
> CAUTION! CAUTION! CAUTION!
> 
> When used with cardiac glycosides [ginseng is loaded with these], ephedra can cause cardiac arrhythmias. Chinese medicine practitioners know these precautions and use herbs correctly. Many companies that are out to just make a buck do not use herbs correctly. Please beware of bad formulations. Get advice from a knowledgeable person.




I am finding Non-US, Non-AMA related sites indicating the correct use of this herb, and its not for weight gain or an energy boost.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Is the doctor a U.S. physician?  Then
> he's a member of the AMA.  *



No, not necessarily.



> *
> Was the journal a medical
> journal?? Then it's the AMA  (written by U.S. Doctors). *



I'm not sure how you mean this--certainly, not all medical journals are formally associated with the AMA. See this site for the AMA's journals.

Note, physicians are often influenced by pharmaceutical reps., though the situation is improving somewhat. They are rarely influenced by makers of supplements however.


----------



## JDenz

Pretty much every issue in the health field ends in this debate.  The AMA and FDA have dropped the ball so many times that they are definitly not up on breaking issues and medicines.  Any thing that involves politics is always going to be a flawed system.  The same arguements that we are going through now can be made for anything.  I can say the AMA FDA has dropped the ball on steriods.  Then I would say that the government aproves giving out steriods and growth hormone. Then we would argue about that.  No one can win these arguements.  Like Kirk said you can't just do a study then make a claim on a prodect.  
    By the way in that mustletecarticle talking about hydroxycut they are not talking about Ephedra.


----------



## Nightingale

hydroxycut contains ephedra.

and my uncle, the PhD medical researcher, uses accupuncture himself for residual pain from a back injury (a few fused vertebrae from a motorcycle accident).  a quote from him:  "western medicine is very good at treating the big things, the cancers, the heart conditions, the organ failures, the major trauma.  We cut people open, fix what's wrong, and sew them back up again.  We are not, however, good at handling chronic problems and chronic pain.  Eastern medicine is much better at this, and we have a lot to learn."  He actually referred me to an accupuncturist to treat a stomach problem, but I haven't had a chance to go yet.  I'll probably go sometime in march.

Not all American doctors are corrupt, evil pawns of the AMA, Kirk.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Well not card carrying members .... but they still are IMO. *



It is accurate in this sense: The AMA is authorized to set standards for allopathic medical practice and I believe medical education (through an associated organization, the CME), much as the lawyers and engineers have their own groups that accredit law and engineering schools, and accreditation is necessary for licensing. See here.

Of course, this still does not affect osteopathic physicians, who are governed by the AOA. There is also a sense in which dentists and podiatrists, and in _some_ states naturopaths and I believe chiropractors, are also physicians (with limited authority).


----------



## JDenz

agian
By the way in that mustletecarticle talking about hydroxycut they are not talking about Ephedra.
They are talking about another ingredant they put in there.  Hydroxy cut is one of the most tame  mu hung products out there I bet there isn't even what they put on the label in there.  i never even got a little buzz on it.  Although I think it is way better the rip fuel.  I haven't taken to many fat burners so I can't comment on them.  But Hydroxy cut worked great for me.  No I don't work for musle tech and there protein is way over priced


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I believe the comment about Hydroxycut was about the claims being made, not the ingredients.  According to the graphic on the website, it looks like the product is ephedra free now, but had it at one time.  No indication if there is 2 versions of the product.

http://www.buy-hydroxycut-supplement.com/
lists the ingredients as Hydroxagen, Hydroxycitric Acid, HydroxyTea, Guarana, L-Carnitine, Mahuang (which contains Ephedra) and Willow Bark Extract.
I would bet the 'active' ingredient mentioned is L-Carnitine.

http://healthandfitness.com/bbs/nutri/messages/2998.html
lists the ingredients as:
Hydroxagen(garcinia cambogia)(50%)....2000mg
Green Tea(22%)..............910mg
Sida Cordifolia(6%).............334mg
White willow bark...............100mg 

http://www.drugstore.com/qxp74244_3...cut/advanced_weight_loss_formula_capsules.htm lists the ingredients as:
Hydroxycut® Proprietary Blend Ingredients:

Hydroxagen® (Garcinia cambogia)(fruit & rind)(standardized for 1000mg hydroxycitric acid)
HydroxyTea: Guarana Extract (seed), Green Leaf Tea Extract, (standardized for 95% polyphenols [70% catechins (45% epigallocatechin gallate - 90mg EGCG)]), (standardized for 200mg caffeine)
Ma-Huang Extract (stem & leaf) (standardized for 20mg ephedra alkaloids)
Willow Bark Extract (purple & white) (standardized for 15mg salicin)
*L-Carnitine Tartrate*

So I find conflicting information on the product on if it does or does not currently contain ephedra.

This is the text from the mussletech site "A new, advanced Hydroxycut formula is coming soon, and one of its cutting-edge compounds just got better. " that is paired with a graphic of a bottle with a lable saying ephedra free.

As to the price, the few times I looked for L-Carnitine, I found it to be pricey.  That -may- be part of the cost factor.  If anyone happens to stop at a GNC or similar and could check the shelf and see if theres 2 versions of the product?


----------



## white belt

THE FOLLOWING IS AN UNSOLICITED TESTIMONIAL.

My intermittent cycling of Ma Huang, into my supplement regimen, has helped my fat loss, repair time, circulation and flexibility.

The downside is not having eyebrows, my fillings pick up my next door neighbors cell phone and I sleep every two days in the closet hanging upside down by my ankles like Grandpa Munster. 

All kidding aside, I approach things with the words of Jack LaLanne.   "With anything positive, one must use moderation".  

white belt


----------



## JDenz

As far as I know HC has never contained Ephedra as long as I have used it the only thing they have changed is the compond that is supposed to bond to carbs so they are not stored as fat.  Which after further testing didn't work like they thought it did so they changed the formula.


----------



## Nightingale

I have a bottle of hydroxycut that is a year old (tried it for a few days, it made me sick, so I stopped) and it contains ma huong, which contains ephedra/ephedrine.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I pulled the info off several sites currently selling it. The manufacturer doesn't currently have much up.  

I just checked GNC and they don't list it on their website.  

http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/hydroxycut/hydroxycut-information.htm  indicated that its ECA stack contains ephedra.

If you have a bottle handy, check the label and see if it says 'Ephedra free' or on the list of ingredients mentions either "Ma Huang" "Ephedra" or "Ephedrine".

I'm curious on how recently they switched formulations, or if theres multiple versions currently on the market.

I'm seeing some good info on Xenadrine EFX, when compared to the older formulation of Hydroycut.  I'd be curious to hear how the 2 ephedra-free versions compare, given the good things also said about HC.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Did a little more digging....
Assuming the 1 link above is correct on what the efedra-free version of HC contains, it would appear they also dropped the L-carnitine which might be why it was less effective.

I did some reading a few years back on L-carnitine and the 2 bits below agree with my earlier info, that L-carnitine is a good fat buster.  Will have to do some further digging later on it.

http://www.carnipure.com/carnipure/en/what.html


> L-Carnitine is a vitamin-like nutrient related to vitamins of the B-group (vitamin BT).
> 
> L-Carnitine is a physiological substance, essential for energy production and for fat metabolism.
> 
> In international classifications, L-Carnitine is listed next to choline, another vitamin-like nutrient.
> 
> L-Carnitine can be synthesized in the human liver, but insufficient amounts may be produced in infants, in adolescents and in adults under certain physiological conditions.
> 
> L-Carnitine turns fat into energy



http://www.all-natural.com/nutri.html


> Carnitine
> 
> L-carnitine is an amino acid which nourishes the heart, nourishes and strengthens muscles, and nutritionally supports the circulatory system. L-Carnitine is considered to be a "carrier" of fat to the mitochondria or "fatburning" area of the cell. This remarkable amino acid-like substance is not only necessary for the metabolism of fat at the cellular level; it is also essential in the forming of firm, lean muscle tissue in the body. Recent studies support earlier research which shows that the heart has the greatest amount of L-Carnitine of any muscle in the body. L-Carnitine has also shown to be instrumental in the metabolism of cholesterol. Some overweight people may lack L-Carnitine in their bodies. The heart produces most of its energy from fats; thus is dependent upon L-carnitine. An L-Carnitine deficiency causes extreme metabolic impairment to heart tissue. On the other hand, supplemental L-Carnitine has proved to be beneficial to heart patients.


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## lhommedieu

With respect to the FDA (or similarly run regulatory agencies) my sympathies are libertarian - less is more.  My take on the debate about ephedra has less to do with the "FDA vs. My Right To Do Whatever I Want" than my understanding of the drug.

Chinese herbalist rarely prescribe ephedra (ma huang) in large doses unless buffered by other herbs that mitigate its well-known side-effects.  They do prescribe it for specific symptoms, the most common of which is cough or wheezing.

What you're talking about is a chemically metabolized and/or synthesized product that is many times the strength of the original source (a plant).  My question would be:  Why are you taking a much stronger version of a drug that has well-known side effects, for a purpose that has very little to do with its original use?

I'll grant that ephedra will jack you up and help you to lose weight.  

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## cassidy

ma huang and ephedra are the same thing some companies put ma huang on the bottle so people don't get scared off by the evil word of EPHEDRA.


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## white belt

Here is a simple test I use to verify whether or not I am taking too much Ephedra.

Items needed:
1) A Ferret from the local pet shop.
2) A handgun with a full clip of blanks.
3) A chunk of Crack.
4) A good pair of running shoes.
5) A backyard at least 20ft. square.
6) A brick.

Directions:
1) Feed the Ferret a little dog food mixed with the crack.
2) Wait 10-15 minutes.
3) Open your door to the back yard.
4) Start firing the handgun filled with blanks.
5) Try to catch the Ferret in less than 30 seconds or before he reaches the neighbors yard.

Findings:
1) If you can do this successfully, 2 out of 3 times, in less than 2 minutes, time to detox a bit.

2) If you can hit the Ferret with a brick, with out moving your feet, you have passed the 1st Dan test for "Brick Do" (c).  At this point you may qualify to train at the Ushomikan in Kansas City, Mo.  No Bratwurst, please!

Drawbacks:
I've noticed the neighbors don't wave back anymore(?).  I guess science does have it's sacrifices. 

Always thinkin',
white belt


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## jfarnsworth

Oh man, that was too much!:rofl:


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## karatekid1975

LOL That was good, white belt. :rofl: 
Man if I took that stuff, I'd be "flying"! I'm already hyper without "help."


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *Drawbacks:
> I've noticed the neighbors don't wave back anymore(?). *



Screw the neighbors. Next time throw the brick at them.:shrug: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Kenpomachine

100 points each hit


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## Bob Hubbard

Moderator Note - Please note Mr. cassidy is no longer with us.  Please ignore his comments and focus on the thread.  If anyone wishes to comment, please send me a PM or Email.

Thank you.


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