# Kenpo Jujitsu? Is this the original art of Kenpo?



## TMAA (Jul 14, 2009)

Hello Everyone:

Ive been watching this site, http://www.mogulsinc.com for some time.  And when I have a question on a new video that comes up I always come to the experts who are on this blog.

Here is a video on Channel 6 (to see it click on the number 6 on the remote which will take you to the channel), the show is Best Defense dated July 12, 2009 http://www.mogulsinc.com/Development/test.htm

I always enjoyed watching Kenpo stylist since seeing the Perfect Weapon, but is there such a thing as Kenpo Jujitsu?  

Is this the older version of current Kenpo or is this the way it was originally taught by GM Mitose?

Let me know what your views are on this Kenpo Jujitsu, and is it well explained in this clip?

I know lots of questions, but I enjoy seeing the responses and learning something.

Thanks


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 14, 2009)

I hit "6" but don't think I was watching the right clip. They mentioned several styles, but not Kenpo Jujitsu. 

Anyway...Here's the short version

Mitose wrote the book "What is Self Defense: Kenpo Jiu Jitsu" 

William K.S. Chow studied under Mitose, but changed the spelling to KeNpo to differentiate himself from Kosho Ryu Kempo, the generational art of Mitose's family. 

Ed Parker studied under Chow and his art went through several changes as well...and the rest is reasonably well known.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 14, 2009)

Mitose's art bears little to no resemblence to modern kenpo

the real "mother art" of all modern kenpo, IMO, comes from Chow


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## Milt G. (Jul 14, 2009)

Hello,
"Kempo Jujitsu" is the Japanese side of the very early Kenpo that became what we have today.  It was the base system of James Mitose, who was William Chow's teacher, at least for awhile.
I agree with the statement that Chow's Kenpo is closer to the traditional Kenpo as we know it today.  He added much to what he was taught by Mitose.
Of course, Kenpo has changed quite a bit, overall, through the lineage.
Kempo Jujitsu, Kenpo Karate, Chinese Kenpo, American Kenpo and EPAK have all had some different influences from all of the chief personalities involved.
If it were not for Mitose's "Kempo Jujitsu", and Chow's influence, we would probably not have Kenpo as we know it today.
Good thread.  Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 14, 2009)

I can only speak about our verison of Kempo Jujutsu and it has roots going back to Aikijujutsu, which is much older then Mitose's Kempo Jujutsu.


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## TMAA (Jul 15, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> I hit "6" but don't think I was watching the right clip. They mentioned several styles, but not Kenpo Jujitsu.


 
The video will be on the very bottom of the list on channel 6 you have to scroll down.

What has changed from the original form of Kenpo that Mitose taught? 

From what I can see on Youtube, there is the classical striking power and speed, but recently (in the historical term over the centuries) has the art of Jujitsu/Aikijujutsu been lost? 

It would seem that this is a important part of the system for close quarter combat.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 15, 2009)

TMAA said:


> What has changed from the original form of Kenpo that Mitose taught?




Oh boy...to what current form of kenpo? Or to what other form of kenpo that followed? 

That's a BIG question with a TON of possible answers. 




TMAA said:


> It would seem that this is a important part of the system for close quarter combat.


 
Close quarter combat is probably one common thread in all kenpo systems, but application and methodology can vary greatly.


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## RevIV (Jul 15, 2009)

Kempojujutsu said:


> I can only speak about our verison of Kempo Jujutsu and it has roots going back to Aikijujutsu, which is much older then Mitose's Kempo Jujutsu.


 
how old is Aikijujutsu? or how far back can you trace it to be more precise?


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 16, 2009)

My instructor was a student of Taika Oyata back in the early to mid 80's. Oyata's family history can be traced back to 1600's. Oyata was also a student under Nakamura. Nakamura started training around 10 years old. (That would dated back to around 1902.) Under his uncle and Chokki Motobu.

Aikijujutsu history varies from whom you talk too. Some say there is history that dates it back to mid 1000. Others have it starting around 1600's.  Takeda Sokaku is known as the founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Which dates back to the middle 1800's. But there is history of it being older then that.

I just have a problem with people saying if it wasn't for Mitose there would be no Kem/npo. People were doing it long before Mitose was even born. That was the point I was trying to bring up.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 16, 2009)

Kempojujutsu said:


> My instructor was a student of Taika Oyata back in the early to mid 80's. Oyata's family history can be traced back to 1600's. Oyata was also a student under Nakamura. Nakamura started training around 10 years old. (That would dated back to around 1902.) Under his uncle and Chokki Motobu.
> 
> Aikijujutsu history varies from whom you talk too. Some say there is history that dates it back to mid 1000. Others have it starting around 1600's. Takeda Sokaku is known as the founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Which dates back to the middle 1800's. But there is history of it being older then that.
> 
> I just have a problem with people saying if it wasn't for Mitose there would be no Kem/npo. People were doing it long before Mitose was even born. That was the point I was trying to bring up.


 
Who says that? 

I believe Mitose was the 21st generation of his family to practice "Old Pine Tree" style...but it's documented that his ancestor brought it back from China...not sure from who or where though...

Anyway, I think part of the problem is people think linearly and don't account for the fact that martial artist gain skill from more than just a single influence. It probably doesn't help that people ask to see specific family trees either...


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## Danjo (Jul 16, 2009)

I think Mitose learned most of his "Kenpo" from a book by Motobu that came to Hawaii in the 1930's. Chow said that Mitose only taught "Kinny  Garden stuff." Which is borne out by subsequent wittnesses of his skill. Chow was constantly learning and innovating and taught till he died. In Okinawa, Kenpo and Karate were used interchangably.

Some people believe the legend about the Kosho ryu story. That's their right, but I'm pretty sceptical about it.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 16, 2009)

you and me both


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## Flying Crane (Jul 16, 2009)

Danjo said:


> I think Mitose learned most of his "Kenpo" from a book by Motobu that came to Hawaii in the 1930's. Chow said that Mitose only taught "Kinny Garden stuff." Which is borne out by subsequent wittnesses of his skill. Chow was constantly learning and innovating and taught till he died. In Okinawa, Kenpo and Karate were used interchangably.
> 
> Some people believe the legend about the Kosho ryu story. That's their right, but I'm pretty sceptical about it.


 
Danjo, I'm not looking to rehash old issues that have been discussed to death.  But didn't Mr. Chow make the "kinny garden stuff" comment in the very same interview where he stated that Ed Parker was not very good, and was only a "purple belt" when he left?  

My point is only that Mr. Chow seems to have held on to some bitterness towards certain people, possibly deserved in some cases, possibly not in others, but he spoke from emotion which may not have been based in reality.

Personally, I'm skeptical of the truth behind his purple belt statement about Mr. Parker.  But I'm equally skeptical about the truth behind the "kinny garden stuff" comment he made about Mr. Mitose.  I think these were the comments of a bitter old man shooting from the hip.

Obviously I've never met either Mr. CHow nor Mr. Mitose.  But I suspect that many other people who comment in the negative about what Mr. Mitose was doing may simply have not understood it.  Mr. Mitose may have been a poor martial artist, or a great one, or more likely was somewhere in between.  But neither you nor I are in a position to judge that.

I'll just leave it at that.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 16, 2009)

These posts further prove how incredibly diverse the art has become. Even early on, much about it and it's origins were debated. There are various versions of history depending on who you talk to or what you read. 

Many have tried to nail down a concrete history, but none have succeeded in penning one that everybody agreed with. Take it for what it's worth and instead focus on your training. LOL


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## Twin Fist (Jul 16, 2009)

well, we DO know that what Mitose taught looked NOTHING like what Chow taught, essentially, Mitose taught japanese karate.

we do know that all of the Kenpo that came out of Hawaii, and all the sub systems look nothing like Mitose's stuff

now, not talking about the japanese/okinawan versions of kenpo, but otherwise, all the world's kenpo and all of thier sub systems can be traced back to one man.

and his name isnt mitose


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> well, we DO know that what Mitose taught looked NOTHING like what Chow taught, essentially, Mitose taught japanese karate.
> 
> we do know that all of the Kenpo that came out of Hawaii, and all the sub systems look nothing like Mitose's stuff
> 
> ...


 
Who pray tell? The ancient Indian holy man that caught the Chinese monks napping when they should have been meditating? LOL


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## Danjo (Jul 16, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> Danjo, I'm not looking to rehash old issues that have been discussed to death. But didn't Mr. Chow make the "kinny garden stuff" comment in the very same interview where he stated that Ed Parker was not very good, and was only a "purple belt" when he left?
> 
> My point is only that Mr. Chow seems to have held on to some bitterness towards certain people, possibly deserved in some cases, possibly not in others, but he spoke from emotion which may not have been based in reality.
> 
> ...


 
Well, I see your point. Like I said, these are my opinions based on what I've been able to garner from various sources (some of them trained with Mitose and Chow). But, like you said, we weren't there to see how "kinny garden" his stuff was (BTW, no it wasn't in that same interview that he said that. In that interview, he said Mitose talked while he, Chow, demonstrated.), but neither were we there to see him training like Kwai Chiang Caine at the Shaka-in temple in Japan and learning techniques that "no one understood" because they were dead-ringers for super basic punches etc.

The answers will never be known for sure. I have my opinions and others have theirs.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 16, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, I see your point. Like I said, these are my opinions based on what I've been able to garner from various sources (some of them trained with Mitose and Chow). But, like you said, we weren't there to see how "kinny garden" his stuff was (BTW, no it wasn't in that same interview that he said that. In that interview, he said Mitose talked while he, Chow, demonstrated.), but neither were we there to see him training like Kwai Chiang Caine at the Shaka-in temple in Japan and learning techniques that "no one understood" because they were dead-ringers for super basic punches etc.
> 
> The answers will never be known for sure. I have my opinions and others have theirs.


 
fair enough.  thanks


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## Milt G. (Jul 16, 2009)

Hello,
I have found that since the history of Kenpo is such a "long and winding road" I have to decide what to believe.  Many of the stories tend to contradict themselves.

How I do it, is to pick a source that I trust...  usually someone who was there (or thereabouts) and take their opinion or "facts" as my own.  It helps to have a history with said individual.  

I do understand that even those "ground floor" practitioners have disagreements and misunderstandings about what they witnessed and how they witnessed it.  Sometimes those "misunderstandings" are motivated by ego or politics.  As those things are unimportant to me, I just try to "glean" the substance of what I hear, or what I am told, and try to shed the political or ego driven spin.  Of course, that relies on my ability to recognize the difference. 
No mean feat!

I understand that my source may be inaccurate, but I will never really know that for certain.  Even asking another may not make the "facts" more clear.  I just have to trust my sources, my seniors and my heart.

There seems to be just as many stories on the history of Kenpo as there are personalities involved.  While I am interested, deeply, in the history of our art, I do understand that there are things I may never know for sure.  I just try to listen to who I trust, and hope that they are being honest to themselves, their students and to Kenpo.

What else can I, or anyone, do...?

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 17, 2009)

I guess it depends on how important it really is to you and how far back you want to attempt to go...

I can easily trace my lineage to SGM Ed Parker...that's good enough for me. 

Good luck to the rest of you!


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## KenpoDave (Jul 19, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Mitose's art bears little to no resemblence to modern kenpo
> 
> the real "mother art" of all modern kenpo, IMO, comes from Chow


 
A student of Mitose's from the late 1930's observed classes at our studio over a period of several months and claimed that what we were doing was exactly as Mitose had taught.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 19, 2009)

you say so, alot of people say different

eh


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## Danjo (Jul 19, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> A student of Mitose's from the late 1930's observed classes at our studio over a period of several months and claimed that what we were doing was exactly as Mitose had taught.


 
Hmmm. I would be a little suspicious of that (what he said, not what you said). It sounds like that fellow was just trying to acknowledge that you were all part of the same family.

I was told by a student of Mitose's who was also a student of Chow, Brother Abe and Ralph Castro, that "You can't compare what Mitose was doing in the 40's with what is being taught now because it is like trying to compare a flint-lock rifle to a machine gun." Combine that with the "Kinny garden stuff" statement from Chow, and it sounds like they're saying the same basic thing.

Sijo Emperado also said that Mitose only tried to do the "One-punch kill" stuff ala old-school Karate etc. and that there was no flow or follow-through in the techniques. Apparently Mitose was pretty good at the one-punch part since he hit Emperado's metal car fender one time, and left a large fist-shaped dent in it. But I have not really heard anything that says what he did was similar to modern Kenpo.


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## Milt G. (Jul 19, 2009)

Hello, Mr. Weston...

Thank you for your messages, input and follow through!

Milt G.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 19, 2009)

look at Mitose's book, the technies are all classic japanese karate stuff

no flow

nothing remotely kenpo like at all




Danjo said:


> Hmmm. I would be a little suspicious of that (what he said, not what you said). It sounds like that fellow was just trying to acknowledge that you were all part of the same family.
> 
> I was told by a student of Mitose's who was also a student of Chow, Brother Abe and Ralph Castro, that "You can't compare what Mitose was doing in the 40's with what is being taught now because it is like trying to compare a flint-lock rifle to a machine gun." Combine that with the "Kinny garden stuff" statement from Chow, and it sounds like they're saying the same basic thing.
> 
> Sijo Emperado also said that Mitose only tried to do the "One-punch kill" stuff ala old-school Karate etc. and that there was no flow or follow-through in the techniques. Apparently Mitose was pretty good at the one-punch part since he hit Emperado's metal car fender one time, and left a large fist-shaped dent in it. But I have not really heard anything that says what he did was similar to modern Kenpo.


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## Milt G. (Jul 19, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> look at Mitose's book, the technies are all classic japanese karate stuff
> 
> no flow
> 
> nothing remotely kenpo like at all


 
Hello,
That "manual" was intended as a basic text...  That being so, the movements that are depicted are basic in nature...
Yes...  No "Circling Windmills" there. 

Not disputing your point, just pointing out that the text was basic, and probably would not have contained anything too intricate anyway.  Just the very basics.

I agree that Kenpo has evolved much in the last 50+ years.  So much so that there would be quite a difference in what is practiced today, as compared to what was taught in the beginning.

Mitose influenced Chow, who influenced Parker, who influenced his students.  Everyone involved "gave" something to the Kenpo of today.  Every teacher puts his/her spin on the art as it passes from generation to generation.  Sometimes the "spin" is very subtle. 

Yes...  What Mitose taught is the "basis" of what came after.  That does not mean that it is exactly the same.  If you dispute that, you are disputing the basic lineage of the system.

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## Doc (Jul 20, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> Danjo, I'm not looking to rehash old issues that have been discussed to death.  But didn't Mr. Chow make the "kinny garden stuff" comment in the very same interview where he stated that Ed Parker was not very good, and was only a "purple belt" when he left?
> 
> My point is only that Mr. Chow seems to have held on to some bitterness towards certain people, possibly deserved in some cases, possibly not in others, but he spoke from emotion which may not have been based in reality.
> 
> ...



Well I'll just say when I saw him "demonstrate," along with others like Huk Planas, to say nobody was impressed, would be kind. He was like a beginner who had a few lessons who clearly didn't know what he as doing.
 along with other


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2009)

Doc said:


> Well I'll just say when I saw him "demonstrate," along with others like Huk Planas, to say nobody was impressed, would be kind. He was like a beginner who had a few lessons who clearly didn't know what he as doing.
> along with other


 
Yes, you have expressed this before, but I stand by my earlier comments for a couple of reasons.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the demonstration that you witnessed was towards the end of Mr. Mitose's career, yes?  People change over the years, and often what someone taught and how they trained early in their career is quite different from late in their career.  You've said so often regarding Mr. Parker.  Not everyone changes for the better.  Some people end up going down a weird road and they end up doing something that doesn't make a lot of sense.  I know someone from the Wing Chun world who expressed that very thing about his own teacher.  For a number of years in the 1970s, his teacher was tops, teaching good stuff and training his students hard.  But then he started changing thing and my friend felt he turned it into junk.  So he left him.  

It's quite possible that the same thing happened with Mr. Mitose.  What you witnessed is not necessarily a reflection of Mr. Mitose's career.  It was just what you witnessed, at that moment in time.  

I believe that Mr. Parker was making an attempt to distance himself from Mr. Mitose, probably for several reasons.  The most obvious was his criminal troubles that nobody denies.  Another could be his religious activities that he may have been trying to push onto people.  Heck, if it was me, I would have probably done the same thing.  I don't want to associate with that kind of thing either.  

But that doesn't mean that Mr. Mitose had little knowledge nor little skill, altho the attempt to create distance from him may have translated into such an accusation.

You've had your experiences in the negative, regarding Mr. Mitose.  I've spoken with others who feel Mr. Mitose had some strong insights and had a good system.   Your opinions are your own and I respect that.  But not everyone sees it the same way.


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## Doc (Jul 20, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, you have expressed this before, but I stand by my earlier comments for a couple of reasons.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but the demonstration that you witnessed was towards the end of Mr. Mitose's career, yes?  People change over the years, and often what someone taught and how they trained early in their career is quite different from late in their career.  You've said so often regarding Mr. Parker.  Not everyone changes for the better.  Some people end up going down a weird road and they end up doing something that doesn't make a lot of sense.  I know someone from the Wing Chun world who expressed that very thing about his own teacher.  For a number of years in the 1970s, his teacher was tops, teaching good stuff and training his students hard.  But then he started changing thing and my friend felt he turned it into junk.  So he left him.
> 
> ...


It was in the 60's so you would have to do the math and speculate whether that was near the end of his career. I can't do that.  However, It is unfair to suggest that because Mr. Parker didn't like what Mitose was doing personally, that he would disparage his martial arts skill. Mr. Parker always made the point that Mitose, from the first time he saw him, was not very impressive, and that he was conversely impressively overwhelmed by Chow's capability, and that is why Mitose was never his teacher. The difference for me is I have no need to make an excuse for what someone might have been, or speculate on what they became. I made a judgement on the man's ability based on what I saw, not what I heard, hypothesized, or rationalized. I didn't know the man, but his ability, agenda, and what he was seemed apparent and is well documented outside of martial arts worshippers. I have no problem that some have an opposing view, because it doesn't affect my lineage, or anything I do. However my education and profession pushes me more toward the objective facts, over speculative subjective rationalizations which can obscure and explain anything you want to embrace.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2009)

Doc said:


> It was in the 60's so you would have to do the math and speculate whether that was near the end of his career. I can't do that. However, It is unfair to suggest that because Mr. Parker didn't like what Mitose was doing personally, that he would disparage his martial arts skill. Mr. Parker always made the point that Mitose, from the first time he saw him, was not very impressive, and that he was conversely impressively overwhelmed by Chow's capability, and that is why Mitose was never his teacher. The difference for me is I have no need to make an excuse for what someone might have been, or speculate on what they became. I made a judgement on the man's ability based on what I saw, not what I heard, hypothesized, or rationalized. I didn't know the man, but his ability, agenda, and what he was seemed apparent and is well documented outside of martial arts worshippers. I have no problem that some have an opposing view, because it doesn't affect my lineage, or anything I do. However my education and profession pushes me more toward the objective facts, over speculative subjective rationalizations which can obscure and explain anything you want to embrace.


 
I'm not making excuses for anybody, nor am I a martial arts worshipper.  I'm actually a big skeptic when it comes to most people, including a lot of famous people.

I do, however, suspect that the real picture regarding Mr. Mitose includes more than your or even Mr. Parker's experiences with him.


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## Milt G. (Jul 20, 2009)

Hello,

I think that if it were not for James Mitose the Kenpo we have today may not even exsist.  It would certainly be different.

Whether or not Mitose's skill level was "this, or that" he had a profound influence on our art in its infancy.  Personally, I have no idea of his personal skill level.  I never saw him.  I do know that often times perception is key.  I have seen various practitioners videos that I thought were great, and that others disliked...  Some strongly.   The opposite is true as well.  May just be a Ford/Chevy arguement? 

The fact that Thomas Young and William Chow were Mitose's students says something.  I am sure he had some positive influence on them.  They must have felt he had something to teach?

Sad about Mitose's legal issues, though.  Many have negative memories of him because of that, and that alone.  I am sorry for what became of him, but it is what it is.  I try to focus on the positive things he did for our art.  Not easy, sometimes.  
If your lineage is Ed Parker, then it is William Chow and James Mitose, too.

A good discussion.  Thanks to all!  
Especially to those that were there...
Milt G.


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## Carol (Jul 20, 2009)

Personally...I wasn't there.  Doc was, he knows what he saw.  I don't.

What it brings to mind is something minor I did when I was younger and cockier.  When I was in my 20s I learned a data protocol that is not known by a lot of people and not used at all outside of large telecommunications networks.  Lets call the protocol ZYX.  My former colleagues used to shout across the office to my cube calling for an "ZYX expert" if something broke. My ego enjoyed that very much   When I initially signed up for an Instant Messenger account, I used the screen name "ZYXexpert".  My colleagues thought it was a hoot, and so did I.

Now that I'm I'm 40 and I still have that screen name, which looks a bit silly.   I don't dare change it, too many people in my industry know me by that nickname.  I have gotten a lot of mileage from the nickname but it carried a price:  I ended up setting an unnaturally high standard of performance for myself, a standard that I cannot always deliver.  Usually it results an occasional bout of good-natured ribbing  but there have probably been a few times where I have disappointed some because they were expecting (or hoping) for me to have an answer to a situation that I could not provide.  

Mitose carried quite a title with him.  I don't recall which one but I believe it was along the lines of Soke or Grandmaster.  I suspect it was difficult to know the man in a martial arts contest without knowing his title.  Perhaps differing perceptions of what a Soke should look like lead to different perceptions of what he was able to do?  I don't know.


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## Doc (Jul 20, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm not making excuses for anybody, nor am I a martial arts worshipper.  I'm actually a big skeptic when it comes to most people, including a lot of famous people.
> 
> I do, however, suspect that the real picture regarding Mr. Mitose includes more than your or even Mr. Parker's experiences with him.



That's the difference between you and I. You SUSPECT. I don't have to. I EXPERIENCED first hand.  I see your suspicions and raise you my experience. We both however are entitled.


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## Danjo (Jul 20, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, you have expressed this before, but I stand by my earlier comments for a couple of reasons.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but the demonstration that you witnessed was towards the end of Mr. Mitose's career, yes? People change over the years, and often what someone taught and how they trained early in their career is quite different from late in their career. You've said so often regarding Mr. Parker. Not everyone changes for the better. Some people end up going down a weird road and they end up doing something that doesn't make a lot of sense. I know someone from the Wing Chun world who expressed that very thing about his own teacher. For a number of years in the 1970s, his teacher was tops, teaching good stuff and training his students hard. But then he started changing thing and my friend felt he turned it into junk. So he left him.
> 
> ...


 
Well, let's see: Chow, Parker, Emperado, (my other source who wishes to not be named in a public forum, and since he is a 9th degree in my system, and friend, I will honor that) and Doc, have all had first hand experience with Mitose's skill. They all came to roughly the same conclusion. If he was hiding his art, he hid it quite well I'd say.

But perhaps something else needs to be said: "Judo" Gene Labell once said that when Karate first came to the USA it was pretty impressive because no one had ever seen a roundhouse kick etc., but now when we look back at those early movies of the Karate fighters, many look primitive by today's standards. However impressive Mitose looked to the Hawaiians in the 1940's, he didn't impress them for very long it seems. Chow and others moved past what he was doing in a very short period of time and never looked back.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 20, 2009)

Dan, email on it's way to you


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## Milt G. (Jul 21, 2009)

Danjo said:


> But perhaps something else needs to be said: "Judo" Gene Labell once said that when Karate first came to the USA it was pretty impressive because no one had ever seen a roundhouse kick etc., but now when we look back at those early movies of the Karate fighters, many look primitive by today's standards. However impressive Mitose looked to the Hawaiians in the 1940's, he didn't impress them for very long it seems. Chow and others moved past what he was doing in a very short period of time and never looked back.


 
Mr. Weston,
I fully agree.  When things are new they tend to be more exciting.
The martial arts, in general, have come a long way.  Very little of it is "new" anymore.  It is easy to be exposed to it of late.  Unheard of towards the beginning.  There were few Shodan in the 60's.  Even less practitioners "of rank" back then.  All you knew is how good your teacher was, as you had much less to compare him/her to.
The practitioners, by and large, are much more skilled these days then say, 40 or 50 years ago, overall.  I think competent instruction is easier to come by.  Perhaps "incompetent", too.   
Even Bruce Lee would have some work to do to catch up with some, these days.
Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

Doc said:


> That's the difference between you and I. You SUSPECT. I don't have to. I EXPERIENCED first hand. I see your suspicions and raise you my experience. We both however are entitled.


 
you yourself had one experience and you admit that you did not know the man.  I don't doubt your experience.  But I do doubt that your experience paints a complete picture of Mr. Mitose.


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## Blindside (Jul 21, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> A student of Mitose's from the late 1930's observed classes at our studio over a period of several months and claimed that what we were doing was exactly as Mitose had taught.


 
Don't you think that is a little strange since the Tracy's material has been filtered through at least two major pioneers (Chow, Parker) since the time when she trained?  Was it the same "in spirit" or was it the same material, because certainly Short 1, Long 1, and the yellow belt curriculum could not be "exactly what Mitose had taught."


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## Twin Fist (Jul 21, 2009)

thats true, Doc never saw him kill anyone. Oh wait, we knew about that already.........

I have to add, that none of the Tracy's ever knew the man either.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, let's see: Chow, Parker, Emperado, (my other source who wishes to not be named in a public forum, and since he is a 9th degree in my system, and friend, I will honor that) and Doc, have all had first hand experience with Mitose's skill. They all came to roughly the same conclusion. If he was hiding his art, he hid it quite well I'd say.


 
yes, i know.  And I've spoken with people who believe otherwise.  I've also spoken with people who very vehemently feel that Mr. Parker was quite lousy.  I recognize that these opinions often come with biases and/or political motivations, so I don't tend to give them much shrift.  I do know that Al Tracy always said that Mr. Parker's skills were tops.



> But perhaps something else needs to be said: "Judo" Gene Labell once said that when Karate first came to the USA it was pretty impressive because no one had ever seen a roundhouse kick etc., but now when we look back at those early movies of the Karate fighters, many look primitive by today's standards.


 
ya, I've heard similar.



> However impressive Mitose looked to the Hawaiians in the 1940's, he didn't impress them for very long it seems. Chow and others moved past what he was doing in a very short period of time and never looked back.


 
from what I understand of Mr. Mitose, from what little I know of what our system has pulled in from him, it seems that he was going down a path that required the willingness to put aside quick gains for further gains down the road.  On a superficial level, for someone who doesn't understand the method, it can appear unimpressive.  But when it's done well, by someone of high skill, it can be very effective.  

If the Hawaiians of post-1940s, including Chow, didn't dig into what he was doing, it wouldn't surprise me that they would have rejected it.

And I'm not trying to diminish what people like Chow were doing either.  Everyone chooses their own path, and Chow was very very good.  I'm not saying that Mitose's path was better.  I'm not trying to elevate him above anyone else. 

I'm only saying that Mr. Mitose represented another path, and for those who have chosen to follow it and study it, it does lead to great benefits.

That's always been my point in this debate that always seems to rear its head from time to time.  I simply believe that writing off Mitose as a no-account, is myopic.  I think he had some good things to contribute, and he did contribute in his own way.  But I also understand that many people did not choose his way, and in fact chose to disassociate from him.  As I stated earlier, given his criminal troubles and his (possibly pushy) religious leanings, I would have probably done the same.  But that doesn't mean he had nothing to offer, for those who were receptive to him.


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## Danjo (Jul 21, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> from what I understand of Mr. Mitose, from what little I know of what our system has pulled in from him, it seems that he was going down a path that required the willingness to put aside quick gains for further gains down the road. On a superficial level, for someone who doesn't understand the method, it can appear unimpressive. But when it's done well, by someone of high skill, it can be very effective.
> 
> If the Hawaiians of post-1940s, including Chow, didn't dig into what he was doing, it wouldn't surprise me that they would have rejected it.
> 
> ...


 
My point in stating the opinons of those various people is that it is unlikely that they would all share the same need to bash Mitose when they don't seem to need to bash each other. I doubt that they would all come to the same conclusion unless it were true.

I have heard the argument that Mitose was some grand master who hid his true art and one had to get to a high level of understanding to appreciate it. I have also heard that Count Dante and Frank Dux fought in death matches, Larry Tatum can throw chi-sparks across the street to a phone pole, and that Pai Mei could balance himself on the tip of an outstretched sword. There is no evidence for it though, and what evidence there is points to the contrary.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 21, 2009)

Danjo said:


> My point in stating the opinons of those various people is that it is unlikely that they would all share the same need to bash Mitose when they don't seem to need to bash each other. I doubt that they would all come to the same conclusion unless it were true.
> 
> I have heard the argument that Mitose was some grand master who hid his true art and one had to get to a high level of understanding to appreciate it. I have also heard that Count Dante and Frank Dux fought in death matches, Larry Tatum can throw chi-sparks across the street to a phone pole, and that Pai Mei could balance himself on the tip of an outstretched sword. There is no evidence for it though, and what evidence there is points to the contrary.


 
Tatum can't throw chi-sparks? :shock: lol


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

Danjo said:


> My point in stating the opinons of those various people is that it is unlikely that they would all share the same need to bash Mitose when they don't seem to need to bash each other. I doubt that they would all come to the same conclusion unless it were true.


 
or they were disinterested in what he was doing, and wrote him off without understanding it.  As I stated above, it's understandable, and had I been in that group at that time, I would probably have done so myself.



> I have heard the argument that Mitose was some grand master who hid his true art and one had to get to a high level of understanding to appreciate it. I have also heard that Count Dante and Frank Dux fought in death matches, Larry Tatum can throw chi-sparks across the street to a phone pole, and that Pai Mei could balance himself on the tip of an outstretched sword. There is no evidence for it though, and what evidence there is points to the contrary.


 
well, I don't push the grandmaster thing too heavily.  I suspect the history there is foggy enough that it's really kind of unknown for sure, so I just sort of leave that part of it alone.  Then again, if his family had an art that was passed down and he inherited it, I guess that would make him the grandmaster.

However, I do know that he had some good things to offer, like the healing methods which I have begun to learn, and that gives your martial understanding a big boost as well.  The physical methods are also quite useful, if you really understand it.

Ted Sumner probably understands these issues about as well as anyone, and his knowledge and ability is second to none.  Ted actually pioneered the reclamation of the healing arts back into our system.  This is something that Mitose practiced and taught, as he saw kenpo as a complete lifestyle, and not just a fighting art.  This is a perspective that I think a lot of people didn't share, at least not on the same level, or as all-inclusively as he did.  At any rate, most people who Mitose taught did not learn the healing methods, and it was lost from most kenpo lineages.

Ted was a student of Seig Kufferath, who was a friend of Mitose and spoke highly of him.  Seig was a student of Danzan Ryu under Okazaki.  Okazaki was famous as a healer in Hawaii, and Seig learned his method, and Ted learned it from Seig.  Seig told Ted that Mitose's method was very similar to what Seig was practicing and teaching to Ted.  Of course Seig also said, "our method was a bit better tho..", which is to be expected.  But in this way, Ted brought a very very similar healing method back into our system.  I've had the method done on me, and I've been learning to do it myself.  It is very effective for certain kinds of problems, being a very rigourous (read: downright painful) method of full body massage that helps the body heal from injuries and pulled muscles and such.  And the hands-on knowledge of nerve anatomy that comes with learning this method is extremely useful in the fighting arts aspect of our system.

Now, bringing Count Dante and Frank Dux into the discussion, and talking about throwing Chi sparks across the room and such just cheapens the whole discussion.  You are better than that, sir.


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## Carol (Jul 21, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> But I also understand that many people did not choose his way, and in fact chose to disassociate from him.  As I stated earlier, given his criminal troubles and his (possibly pushy) religious leanings, I would have probably done the same.  But that doesn't mean he had nothing to offer, for those who were receptive to him.



Dissociation is the key.  Perhaps there are  folks (in general) that either didn't or don't want to say something in support of a person like Mitose out of fear that they will be perceived as someone that supports _all _of what he did.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Dissociation is the key. Perhaps there are folks (in general) that either didn't or don't want to say something in support of a person like Mitose out of fear that they will be perceived as someone that supports _all _of what he did.


 

bingo.  nail on the head there.  thx.


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## Danjo (Jul 21, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> Now, bringing Count Dante and Frank Dux into the discussion, and talking about throwing Chi sparks across the room and such just cheapens the whole discussion. You are better than that, sir.


 
Actually I am pointing out something very similar. They all have fervent followers who claim to believe everything that they said. Legends are a slippery slope when discussing them publicly. It's often difficult to tell where the objective truth ends and the stories begin. It's one thing to believe the legends yourself and tell them to your students, but it is going to be very difficult to get the larger public to believe them in the face of better documented evidence to the contrary. 

To me, there is little difference between the legends of Count Dante, Frank Dux and Mitose. On the factual side, we know that they were all practicing martial artists at some point. We have those that saw them demonstrate their prowess and we find that what people saw was very normal and human. Then we have the legends. The things that no one really saw, but rather heard tell of from others. In these legends, these people were nearly superhuman in their abilities and knowledge. They passed down hidden secrets, and fought secret Tong death matches etc. It is in the area of these legends that their followers (I don't say students, but followers) get the most fervent about when it comes to defending them. It takes on a cult-like character and the true accomplishments of the person get lost in the mix. It is the defense of these legends, that cause others to dismiss these people entirely. Too bad really.


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## Carol (Jul 21, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Tatum can't throw chi-sparks? :shock:



Ask Jill....  :lol:


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Actually I am pointing out something very similar. They all have fervent followers who claim to believe everything that they said. Legends are a slippery slope when discussing them publicly. It's often difficult to tell where the objective truth ends and the stories begin. It's one thing to believe the legends yourself and tell them to your students, but it is going to be very difficult to get the larger public to believe them in the face of better documented evidence to the contrary.
> 
> To me, there is little difference between the legends of Count Dante, Frank Dux and Mitose. On the factual side, we know that they were all practicing martial artists at some point. We have those that saw them demonstrate their prowess and we find that what people saw was very normal and human. Then we have the legends. The things that no one really saw, but rather heard tell of from others. In these legends, these people were nearly superhuman in their abilities and knowledge. They passed down hidden secrets, and fought secret Tong death matches etc. It is in the area of these legends that their followers (I don't say students, but followers) get the most fervent about when it comes to defending them. It takes on a cult-like character and the true accomplishments of the person get lost in the mix. It is the defense of these legends, that cause others to dismiss these people entirely. Too bad really.


 
ah, well the tone looked to me like you were putting up a whole group for ridicule.  Maybe a better practice is to leave the sacred cows of others alone.

I get tired of the ridicule that gets thrown at some people, while others are off-limits for some reason.  Mitose takes a lot of heat when his name gets brought up.  But I know several people who felt that Mr. Parker sucked bad (and no, these are not Tracy people; they are people from other kenpo lineages tracing directly to Chow, as well as people outside of kenpo who knew him in Hawaii).  If I started throwing comments around to perpetuate this view, I can tell you that just about every single kenpo guy on this forum would be jumping down my throat, and most people would be saying things like "it's disgraceful to speak badly of him when he's not here to defend himself", and I agree with that.  But Mitose isn't here to defend himself either.  Why do some people feel he is a fair target for ridicule?

Different lineages trace the source of their information in their own way.  Some people went one way, some went another.  Some people associate with this guy, others with that.  And the funny thing is, they all are pretty solid so clearly nobody has the monopoly on good material, regardless of where they got it. 

When people think that they can make a statement utterly denouncing what someone had to offer, particularly when that person is long since dead and gone, I smell bull-****.  I don't question the expriences that someone may have had, but that in no way fills in the complete picture.  There is always more to the story, and it shouldn't take a whole lot of reflection to recognize that.


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## Danjo (Jul 21, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> ah, well the tone looked to me like you were putting up a whole group for ridicule. Maybe a better practice is to leave the sacred cows of others alone.
> 
> I get tired of the ridicule that gets thrown at some people, while others are off-limits for some reason. Mitose takes a lot of heat when his name gets brought up. But I know several people who felt that Mr. Parker sucked bad (and no, these are not Tracy people; they are people from other kenpo lineages tracing directly to Chow, as well as people outside of kenpo who knew him in Hawaii). If I started throwing comments around to perpetuate this view, I can tell you that just about every single kenpo guy on this forum would be jumping down my throat, and most people would be saying things like "it's disgraceful to speak badly of him when he's not here to defend himself", and I agree with that. But Mitose isn't here to defend himself either. Why do some people feel he is a fair target for ridicule?
> 
> ...


 
Well, Mitose is a special case I guess. Parker, for instance, doesn't have a trial transcript spelling out all kinds of vile behavior. Nor are there photos of Parker wearing a Catholic priest collar collecting donations etc.

Much of the negative press about Parker comes from a man who was himself convicted (along with his wife) of running a brothel under the banner of religion (he claimed his wife was a godess and that the acolytes were to have sex with her as part of their religion). Coincidentally, this is also the primary source for the more esoteric stuff about Mitose and his sisters. Given the public record of Mitose's character and his known scams as well as the public record of his main defender and promoter, I think it doesn't take much to see why Mitose comes under greater scrutiny than Ed Parker or others. It's also why most dismiss this fellow's negative claims about Parker.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, Mitose is a special case I guess. Parker, for instance, doesn't have a trial transcript spelling out all kinds of vile behavior. Nor are there photos of Parker wearing a Catholic priest collar collecting donations etc.
> 
> Much of the negative press about Parker comes from a man who was himself convicted (along with his wife) of running a brothel under the banner of religion (he claimed his wife was a godess and that the acolytes were to have sex with her as part of their religion). Coincidentally, this is also the primary source for the more esoteric stuff about Mitose and his sisters. Given the public record of Mitose's character and his known scams as well as the public record of his main defender and promoter, I think it doesn't take much to see why Mitose comes under greater scrutiny than Ed Parker or others. It's also why most dismiss this fellow's negative claims about Parker.


 

So what?  Do two wrongs make a right?

Mitose's criminal troubles are a completely separate issue from his martial issues.

Why is this coming back to Will Tracy again?  You want to rehash all that yet again?  How many times have you and I done that already? Do you want to do it again?

As I stated in my last post, I have sources unconnected to any of the Tracys (in addition to the interview with Chow where he states that Parker was only a poor purple belt) that have stated that Parker was no good.  I'm not interested in perpetuating that point of view because I'm sophisticated enough to see that it's just someone's opinion and likely doesn't represent the whole picture, and it's probably politically or personally motivated and isn't objective, so it's likely bull-****. 

No, Mitose is not a special case.  He was who he was, and he's dead and gone.  Some people feel that they got some good material from him, others do not.  That's really all there is to it.  Trying to turn this into something more than that is just gonna result in you and I having the same argument over and over.  I say we bury it so deep it never comes up again because I'm rather sick of it.  It's tedious to have the same argument yet again, and in the end we all walk away with the same opinion anyway.  

You don't have to get the warm fuzzies for Mitose.  I don't give two ***** one way or the other how you or anyone else feels about him and in spite of the examples I've given, I don't care if I have failed to convince you.  But I do expect you to have simple respect for the fact that other people feel he had something to offer.  And when people start posting negative things on the forum, it starts the fight all over again.  Let the dead horse stay dead.


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## Danjo (Jul 21, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> So what? Do two wrongs make a right?
> 
> Mitose's criminal troubles are a completely separate issue from his martial issues.
> 
> Why is this coming back to Will Tracy again? You want to rehash all that yet again? How many times have you and I done that already? Do you want to do it again?


 
I think you're missing the point. A person's character DOES have a lot to do with how credible they are. All that we have to go by aside from the historically verifiable wittensses of Mitose's ability is his own words and those of Will Tracy. Both are convicted felons, and the stuff that Will was convicted for was out of this world crazy. Why would ANYONE ever believe what he had to say on any subject?

If you say that Mitose's criminal issues are seperate from his "martial issues" I would agree until you start once again asserting that he inherited his art from his family and that he had esoteric things to teach. Once you do that, you once again take things into an area where we are relying on Mitose's (and Will Tracy's) word for things. When we are forced to do that, then it is important to look at the reliability of those we are being asked to believe.

If we stick with the known facts about Mitose's skill, then we can avoid discussion of his character, or of the character of his supporters in these legends. If you go back through the recent posts, you'll see I did that until you started making the unverifiable claims regarding him again.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 21, 2009)

I think the real lesson here is to not put anyone on a pedestal. Even the "greats" were human and started out like everybody else. 

There's lots of great instructors and innovators in the past as well as today. Seek them out for what they can offer in regards to helping you improve, but never deify them.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

Danjo said:


> I think you're missing the point. A person's character DOES have a lot to do with how credible they are. All that we have to go by aside from the historically verifiable wittensses of Mitose's ability is his own words and those of Will Tracy. Both are convicted felons, and the stuff that Will was convicted for was out of this world crazy. Why would ANYONE ever believe what he had to say on any subject?
> 
> If you say that Mitose's criminal issues are seperate from his "martial issues" I would agree until you start once again asserting that he inherited his art from his family and that he had esoteric things to teach. Once you do that, you once again take things into an area where we are relying on Mitose's (and Will Tracy's) word for things. When we are forced to do that, then it is important to look at the reliability of those we are being asked to believe.
> 
> If we stick with the known facts about Mitose's skill, then we can avoid discussion of his character, or of the character of his supporters in these legends. If you go back through the recent posts, you'll see I did that until you started making the unverifiable claims regarding him again.


 
no, you've missed the point altogether. 

The only point i've been trying to make here is that some people got something good from him, and I've been working with people who are the recipients of that information.  That's where my experience lies.  I actually don't care one way or the other about his criminal troubles or his religious leanings, and neither do I care one way or the other about what Will Tracy has to say.  Those points are really irrelevant to this discussion.

If you don't like him, I've got no problem with that.  If you and your people wish to disassociate from him, I've got no problem with that.  If you know people who had negative experiences with him, I've got no problem with that.

If you try to tell the world that he had nothing to offer and was simply no good, that's where I've got a problem, and that's where I'll call you on it.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> I think the real lesson here is to not put anyone on a pedestal. Even the "greats" were human and started out like everybody else.
> 
> There's lots of great instructors and innovators in the past as well as today. Seek them out for what they can offer in regards to helping you improve, but never deify them.


 

I agree, and I don't think i've ever tried to put Mitose up on a pedestal.  

I've said about 3 or 4 times now, I probably would have disassociated from him myself, if I had known him.  He had real problems, and I don't deny that.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 21, 2009)

they didnt even MAKE purple belts when Parker was training under Chow, so that old quote from Chow about parker being a purple belt is clearly Bullshido

FC, we get it, you are invested in Tracy Kenpo, a fine system in and of itself

But history IS history, you cant change it.

The 3 mouseketeers left their instructor, then betrayed and slandered him. In some attempt to create a legitimate lineage for themselves they alligned themselves with a con man and murderer.

thats history, it cant be changed.

The sad part is, they didnt need to. No one really disputes that Al and Jim Tracy were Masters. They were. Will i dont know enough about to comment on his skill level. They didnt HAVE to go searching for a lineage.They didnt HAVE to spend 40 years dissing Ed Parker.

And 40 years of this "we are the only source for TRUE KENPO just gets old.

there is NO true kenpo

Chow changed what Mitose taught

Emperado changed with Chow taught, so did Parker, and Castro and Kuoha.

Hell, the Tracy's changed what Parker taught.

now mind you, that doesnt take away from the SYSTEM, which no one really denies is a full, complete system, viable, with great depth

but come on, you cant blame people for telling the TRUTH.


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## Carol (Jul 21, 2009)

Mitose brought his personal issues on himself. But now that his personal life has been (deservedly) discredited once again, what about his Kempo? 

My FMA instructor and I attended a two day Kosho Ryu Kempo seminar with Hashi Juchnik.   I see more adulation online of folks like Mr. Tatum and Mr. Gaje than I heard fromm Mr. Juchnik.  He spoke favorably of his teaching much like many folks speak favorably of their own teachers.

This was one of a few seminars that I attended with my own instructor because I can't decode information from seminars well, and I wanted his help in breaking the material down for me.

The seminar proceeded with Mr. Juchnik demonstrating a technique, then havning us practice it.  My instructor would watch me try what was being taught...such as pointing your shoulder in a direction where you were trying to leap..  

He would then ask "Did it work? (Did I jump farther, as Mr. Juchnik said I would?)

When I said yes, he would then quiz me with "Do you know why it worked?"  He would challenge me to figure out the mechanics.  If I couldn't, he would then explain why.  Mechanically, what was being taught appeared to be sound.  One move was essentially a one-inch punch, another was was a set of moves that some FMAists practice as a rope form.

Mr. Juchnik has been a colorful figure in his own right, but at least in my interaction with him, I found him to be very helpful and respectful. I arrived at the seminar with an FMA shirt on from my old school but he regarded us with the same respect he gave to Sensei Bonk's students.  We weren't the only FMAists there, either, but everyone in attendance was polite and respectful to one another.  My instructor was there with me, but there were plenty of Kosho students willing to lend a hand if I got stuck.

After the seminar, I asked my instructor what he thought about Mr. Juchnik learning from Mitose in jail.  (Some folks have said it would have been impossible for him to teach from prison).  My instructor then recalled something that Mr. Juchnik said at the seminar, where a piece of paper was folded in half, and creased, and Mitose described how pressure on the paper would make it bend at the crease, in the direction of the crease.  That lead to an application exploited how an elbow can, and will be bent on its hinge with the right application of pressure.   My instructor finished by saying that was likely an example of how Mitose taught, when he could not physically demonstrate.   Perhaps some folks will say that the story Mr. Juchnik said was a lie and just another Mitose fraud.  

There were aspects to Kosho Ryu Kempo that I found difficult.  The terminology at times was a bit flowery and difficult to follow.  Sometimes Mr. Juchnik was difficult to follow.  There was not as much time spent on combat applications as I personally would have liked...which left me wondering how I would use some of the material in a live situation.  Perhaps some folks will say that is proof that the system is fradulent.

The seminar to me was very positive. I particularly enjoyed working out with Mr. Bonk and his students.  I can't say that I walked away from the seminar with any kind of personal insult or disgust.


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## Danjo (Jul 21, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Mitose brought his personal issues on himself. But now that his personal life has been (deservedly) discredited once again, what about his Kempo?
> 
> My FMA instructor and I attended a two day Kosho Ryu Kempo seminar with Hashi Juchnik. I see more adulation online of folks like Mr. Tatum and Mr. Gaje than I heard fromm Mr. Juchnik. He spoke favorably of his teaching much like many folks speak favorably of their own teachers.
> 
> ...


 
Carol, go on Youtube and search for the videos of Juchnik learning his stuff from Terry Lee (or whatever name he uses now) and you'll see where Juchnik learned some of his stuff. This quagmire gets thicker the more you look at it.


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## Danjo (Jul 21, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I agree, and I don't think i've ever tried to put Mitose up on a pedestal.
> 
> I've said about 3 or 4 times now, I probably would have disassociated from him myself, if I had known him. He had real problems, and I don't deny that.


 
Well, perhaps you didn't mean to, but when you say that he inherited his system from his family and that those students of his simply didn't have the patience to learn all of what he had to teach, you're perpetuating the myth that Mitose and Will Tracy started. It's sort of a backdoor way of promoting that legend.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 21, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, perhaps you didn't mean to, but when you say that he inherited his system from his family and that those students of his simply didn't have the patience to learn all of what he had to teach, you're perpetuating the myth that Mitose and Will Tracy started. It's sort of a backdoor way of promoting that legend.


 

No, go back and re-read what I said.  I actually stated that I sort of leave that issue alone because I suspect the history is murky enough to be unclear.  Maybe he had a family system, maybe he didn't.  Maybe he was the inheritor, maybe he was not.  I dunno, and I said that I sort of leave that bit lie, because to me it's not fully clear.

I've actually acknowledged Mitose's problems very clearly, going so far as to say (for about the 5th time now) that I would have probably distanced myself from him as well, if I had known him at that time.  If you look at what I've said objectively, it would be pretty difficult to claim that I've attempted to put him up on a pedestal.

I've simply said that, contrary to what others believe,  I believe he had some good stuff to offer, and I've worked with some people who are the recipients of that stuff.

As far as others not having the patience to learn what he was teaching, I've seen enough of it to believe that is a valid point, tho I don't know if lacking patience would be the best way to put it.   I think it is something that is hard to see the benefits that it might offer, until much later.  You kind of gotta dig into it for a while before it starts to become clear what you are working to accomplish.  I think other students of Mitose probably just weren't interested in it because they felt other ways would get them to where they wanted to go, perhaps more obviously.  All the power to them.  Everyone chooses their own path.

I'm not trying to say Mitose's way was better (gee, is that the second or third time in this thread that I've said that as well?).  It was just his way, and not many people chose to follow it.  Recognizing the good stuff Mitose had to offer in no way negates the good stuff other people are doing.  Mitose=Good, in no way means Emperado=Bad, or Parker=Bad.  It just means Mitose=Good, and nothing else.

Once again, I don't care if you don't like him, and I don't care if you and your people feel that his methods didn't have much to offer how your system does things.  Feel however you want about him.  But there are many people who disagree with you.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 21, 2009)

I'll offer this in support of the benefits of Mitose's stuff, as well as differences from other kenpo's out there. One of my instructors, Bob Perry, was at Mr. Parkers studio on a day Mitose came to visit. He tells that they were kinda confused by what Mitose did...very elemental, hard-style lunge punch combinations, at a time when they were working with Mr. Parker on flowing, cursive, redirective and off-angling counters.

Mr. Perry said that Mitose moved like a train....you didn't want to be in his way once he got momentum going on a line. But that his ability to track and counter was embryonic compared to what they were working on with Mr. Parker. According to Mr. Perry's memories of sparring Mitose, he was a talented hard stylist, and that's about it. Lacked the levels of sophistication typically associated with other kenpo lineages.

For whatever it's worth...

D.


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## Milt G. (Jul 21, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Ask Jill.... :lol:


 

Now THAT is funny... 
Thanks for the chuckle!

Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Jul 21, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> My FMA instructor and I attended a two day Kosho Ryu Kempo seminar with Hashi Juchnik. I see more adulation online of folks like Mr. Tatum and Mr. Gaje than I heard fromm Mr. Juchnik. He spoke favorably of his teaching much like many folks speak favorably of their own teachers.
> 
> This was one of a few seminars that I attended with my own instructor because I can't decode information from seminars well, and I wanted his help in breaking the material down for me.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,
I too, have worked with Juchnik-Hanshi.  Actually quite extensively.  I attend his local seminars whenever I can.  He has an area rep. (Shihan) that I have been friends with for many years.  We support each others events.  I find him (Juchnik) to be one of the most skilled martial arts practitioners I have seen.  I have seen a few, but certainly not all. 

Yes, his training with Mitose, in prison, was only conceptual.  They do not allow "inmates" to "work out" with visitors while incarcerated.

Juchnik-Hanshi's "Kosho-Ryu" is his interpretation of the ideas and concepts Mitose taught him, based on his understanding of the martial arts in general.  His background was primarily Kenpo Tracy/Parker, FMA, Indonesian arts and Arnis. (Presas lineage)  I do feel that other practitioners may have interpreted the teachings differently, based on their individual training and skill sets.

Another of James Mitose's positive influences at work.  No one is perfect.  We are all human, with many flaws.  Some more then others.  I believe Mitose's legacy is more positive then negative, overall.

Thanks for your seminar insights!
Milt G.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 22, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Don't you think that is a little strange since the Tracy's material has been filtered through at least two major pioneers (Chow, Parker) since the time when she trained? Was it the same "in spirit" or was it the same material, because certainly Short 1, Long 1, and the yellow belt curriculum could not be "exactly what Mitose had taught."


 
Mitose's book actually has quite a bit of stuff in it that is absolutely recognizable in the Tracy system.  I wouldn't be surprised if other lineages also found some recognizable stuff, but I don't know them and can't comment.  Granted, he shows a lot of basic stuff that is probably common to just about any art of Japanese or Okinawan origin, and that's not the stuff I'm talking about.  He demonstrates quite a large number of self defense techniques that are similar in nature to what we have in Tracys, and some are so close as to be essentially the same thing.  

Mitose demonstrates a number of techniques that are clearly recognizable when compared to the Tracy syllabus, and with just a short perusal I recognized Crossing Talon, Tackle Techniques, Rising Elbow, Breaking the Cross, Opening Cowl, Prayer of Death and Covering the Flame.  Of course Mitose did not call them by these names.

Some of these SD techs weren't EXACTLY the same, but they were so close that it was clear what they were.  They just had minor positioning differences, and minor differences in follow-ups, that kind of thing.

other techniques showed elements and portions of techs that I recognized from other techs in our syllabus, but they were applied in a different context, and whatnot.  Very similar ideas, just differences in application.  Essentially the same stuff in a lot of ways.  Not all of it, but enough to see a clear commonality.

His photo layouts are rather minimalistic and it can be difficult to figure out how he gets from position in Photo A to position in Photo B, but I think that was mostly a limitation of the technology and layout that he had available to him at that time.  So certainly with some of his techs it's a bit difficult to see what he's really doing.  But I was really surprised at how much of it looks very similar, even identical in many instances.

So you are certainly correct in stating that Tracy's material has been filtered thru Chow and Parker, and changes were made along the way.  Obviously the kata that we now recognize as being included in most lineages that came from Parker were developed later and were not practiced by Mitose.  The full technique curriculum that exists today in Tracys was also not identical to what Mitose was doing.  But there is a whole lot in common, just in comparing what he put in his book.


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## yorkshirelad (Jul 30, 2009)

EPAK is a system of Kenpo JuJutsu. The JuJutsu influence as always been there and is quite overt. My original system was JuJutsu. I can't tell you the ryu, but I can explain that the lineage was through Kenshiro Abbe sensei, who was trained at the Kodokan in Judo and was also a student of Ueshiba in Aiki Budo before emigrating to the UK in 1955.

When I first began EPAK, I was the only student of my instructor, who was a 1st Degree brown. He was a fellow student of both Aikido and JuJutsu after each class at the local sports centre, he wuld teah me motion Kenpo and then relate it to JuJutsu.

Take Twist of Fate for instance. I use this technique as an example because it has many variations that all involve traditional JuJutsu waza. If you perform the technique in the ideal phase, you have Juju garame. If, however, after the initial double check and right kick (presuming you are doing the technique on the right side) you grasp the opponant's left arm with both had and follow through ith the technique, the technique becomes shiho nage (four direction throw). If, after the initial double check and right kick, you grasp the opponant right hand at the heel and left at the wrist and turn towards the opponant the technique becomes sankajo (3rd control). By stepping with the left from behind the opponant after sankajo and bending the opponant's wrist at a 45 degree anle the technique becomes sankajo renko (3rd control into gooseneck). If you grab the opponant's right wrist with both hands and follow through with the motion of Twist of Fate you can also perform a text book yonkajo (4th control).

EPAKS cannot operate fully without the JuJutsu componant. EPAKS IS Kenpo JuJutsu.


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 8, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Ask Jill.... :lol:


wow! CAROL!...YOU'VE OFFICALLY CROSSED THE LINE!
So, now of course...the question remains...Who sparks your chi?
ROFLMAO!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KenpoDave (Aug 9, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> look at Mitose's book, the technies are all classic japanese karate stuff
> 
> no flow
> 
> nothing remotely kenpo like at all


 
Interesting.  First, it is hard to see flow in snapshots.  Second, so the guy who introduced kenpo to the west did "nothing remotely kenpo like at all?"

I think it would be more correct to state that the photographs in the book do not resemble kenpo as you know it...maybe?


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## KenpoDave (Aug 9, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Hmmm. I would be a little suspicious of that (what he said, not what you said). It sounds like that fellow was just trying to acknowledge that you were all part of the same family.
> 
> I was told by a student of Mitose's who was also a student of Chow, Brother Abe and Ralph Castro, that "You can't compare what Mitose was doing in the 40's with what is being taught now because it is like trying to compare a flint-lock rifle to a machine gun." Combine that with the "Kinny garden stuff" statement from Chow, and it sounds like they're saying the same basic thing.
> 
> Sijo Emperado also said that Mitose only tried to do the "One-punch kill" stuff ala old-school Karate etc. and that there was no flow or follow-through in the techniques. Apparently Mitose was pretty good at the one-punch part since he hit Emperado's metal car fender one time, and left a large fist-shaped dent in it. But I have not really heard anything that says what he did was similar to modern Kenpo.


 
Perhaps.  I do recall that this person was very excited to have found our school, had visited more than a few other schools over the decades, and went on and on about how this was the training that she remembered.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 9, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Don't you think that is a little strange since the Tracy's material has been filtered through at least two major pioneers (Chow, Parker) since the time when she trained? Was it the same "in spirit" or was it the same material, because certainly Short 1, Long 1, and the yellow belt curriculum could not be "exactly what Mitose had taught."


 
The self defense techniques and the training were the same.  We, as a general rule, do not practice kata in class, so I doubt that during her time with us, she saw much of Short 1 and Long 1.  But, very often, during technique practice, she would observe something, and step in and offer a lesson from her time with Mitose, that for many of us, would open up a new aspect of the technique.  Sometimes, we already knew it.  But she knew and recognized the kenpo that we were practicing.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 9, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, let's see: Chow, Parker, Emperado, (my other source who wishes to not be named in a public forum, and since he is a 9th degree in my system, and friend, I will honor that) and Doc, have all had first hand experience with Mitose's skill. They all came to roughly the same conclusion. If he was hiding his art, he hid it quite well I'd say.


 
I have read in several places that Emperado stated that Mitose was a "Master Level Instructor."  Chow's opinions of everyone seem, to me, more about Chow being top-dog than anything else. But he only had one teacher, and that was Mitose.  Thomas Young stayed with Mitose's teachings and was writing very positively about him up until his death.  Okazaki thought highly of him, as did Kufferath.  As a matter of fact, all of the people that I have personally met that knew Mitose, spoke very highly of his skill.

Don't know much about Parker's experiences with him, nor Doc's.  But I have read the court transcripts and think that by the early 70's, Mitose was loony.

I imagine the jury will never be in.  Bottom line is that kenpo is awesome, and what we have funneled through Mitose.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 9, 2009)

Danjo said:


> My point in stating the opinons of those various people is that it is unlikely that they would all share the same need to bash Mitose when they don't seem to need to bash each other. I doubt that they would all come to the same conclusion unless it were true.


 
Except that they all did bash each other at one point or another.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 9, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Actually I am pointing out something very similar. They all have fervent followers who claim to believe everything that they said. Legends are a slippery slope when discussing them publicly. It's often difficult to tell where the objective truth ends and the stories begin. It's one thing to believe the legends yourself and tell them to your students, but it is going to be very difficult to get the larger public to believe them in the face of better documented evidence to the contrary.
> 
> To me, there is little difference between the legends of Count Dante, Frank Dux and Mitose. On the factual side, we know that they were all practicing martial artists at some point. We have those that saw them demonstrate their prowess and we find that what people saw was very normal and human. Then we have the legends. The things that no one really saw, but rather heard tell of from others. In these legends, these people were nearly superhuman in their abilities and knowledge. They passed down hidden secrets, and fought secret Tong death matches etc. It is in the area of these legends that their followers (I don't say students, but followers) get the most fervent about when it comes to defending them. It takes on a cult-like character and the true accomplishments of the person get lost in the mix. It is the defense of these legends, that cause others to dismiss these people entirely. Too bad really.


 
I don't know of any stories like that about Mitose.  Well, there is the orange thing, but that was told to me by someone who witnessed it first hand.


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## Danjo (Aug 9, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> I have read in several places that Emperado stated that Mitose was a "Master Level Instructor." Chow's opinions of everyone seem, to me, more about Chow being top-dog than anything else. But he only had one teacher, and that was Mitose. Thomas Young stayed with Mitose's teachings and was writing very positively about him up until his death. Okazaki thought highly of him, as did Kufferath. As a matter of fact, all of the people that I have personally met that knew Mitose, spoke very highly of his skill.
> 
> Don't know much about Parker's experiences with him, nor Doc's. But I have read the court transcripts and think that by the early 70's, Mitose was loony.
> 
> I imagine the jury will never be in. Bottom line is that kenpo is awesome, and what we have funneled through Mitose.


 
What did Thomas Young ever do? I've never seen footage of him doing anything but talking to Bruce Juchnik. Is there any evidence that he did anything but the basic karate-like kenpo?

As to Emperado's statement: It is filtered third hand from a very dubious source. This fellow has made several other claims of Kajukenbo history that most disregard, and no one has any respect for him that I know of (except people who never met him, or who were cross-ranked by him without ever having studied under him).

On the other hand, I have heard Emperado with his own mouth say the things I attributed to him. It's on a video I have.

I'm sure that basic karate looked impressive back in the 1940's to those that first saw it.


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## Danjo (Aug 9, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> Except that they all did bash each other at one point or another.


 Kindly point me to where Chow, Parker, Emperado,  and Doc, all bashed each other. We have one dubious "interview" with Chow where he spposedly says something negative about Parker. Chow never ran down Emperado at all. Emperado gave Parker an 8th degree and said he did great things for Kenpo. Parker never ran down Chow's or Emperado's abilities that I ever heard of. And Those guys never trashed Doc either that I know of. If he ever said anything negative about them, then I've never read it either.


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## Danjo (Aug 9, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> I don't know of any stories like that about Mitose. Well, there is the orange thing, but that was told to me by someone who witnessed it first hand.


 
The legendary stuff about Mitose has more to do with his learning an ancient family art in a temple in Japan, and that he only taught the surface arts to whose Hawaiian boys etc. and that the "real stuff" was saved for those guys he taught in prison etc. Plus his sisters being high level practitioners etc. etc.

The Death Matches were about Dante and Dux. But all of it is unsubstantiated legend.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 9, 2009)

actually, there is plenty of trash talking in Kenpo history.

mind you, it pretty much all comes from someone named tracy, and is about everyone NOT named tracy.......


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## Danjo (Aug 9, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> actually, there is plenty of trash talking in Kenpo history.
> 
> mind you, it pretty much all comes from someone named tracy, and is about everyone NOT named tracy.......


 
Yeah, I'm up on that stuff from Will Tracy and other trash talk. But Dave made a pretty specific statement about those I named: Chow, Emperado, Parker and Ron Chapel. I am curious to see where he can show me where these fellows all bashed on each other.


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## Milt G. (Aug 9, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> The self defense techniques and the training were the same. We, as a general rule, do not practice kata in class, so I doubt that during her time with us, she saw much of Short 1 and Long 1. But, very often, during technique practice, she would observe something, and step in and offer a lesson from her time with Mitose, that for many of us, would open up a new aspect of the technique. Sometimes, we already knew it. But she knew and recognized the kenpo that we were practicing.


 
Hello, Mr. Hopper...
Do you tend to practice the kata during private instruction classes and not in the regular "open group" classes?

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Aug 9, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> actually, there is plenty of trash talking in Kenpo history.
> 
> mind you, it pretty much all comes from someone named tracy, and is about everyone NOT named tracy.......


 

Hello,

I have never heard Al Tracy say anything really negative about Ed Parker.  He still openly refers to Ed Parker as "my teacher".

While I have read Will Tracy's articles, I do not believe everything at face value.  All of that happened a long time ago, and minds, like history, can become clouded.  Also, I do know that different parties witnessing the same event, can have different stories to tell about what happened.  Even though they were all seeing the same thing, at the same time!   I do think that a fair amount of it is true.  Of course, I cannot comment, with conviction, on any of it as I was not there.  I do not think, however, Will Tracy has anything to gain by "bad mouthing" Ed Parker.  Of course, his relationship to Ed Parker was somewhat different then some of the other students.  Or so the story has been told. 

The history of Kenpo, in general, is just the memories of those on the ground floor.  Many of whom have passed, and many of those left do not have good relationships with one another. This for a very many, and varied, reasons.  All of the stories from the ground floor practitioners have merit.  It is all just from different points of view and perspectives.  The subject has taken on a "personna" almost like religion.  What you believe, your "faith", is what is important.  And, no, not everyone else is going to hell. 

Bottom line...  If you were not there, as I was not, you do not know.  You will never REALLY know...  Like a "buffet" you get to pick and choose what you "eat"...  

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 9, 2009)

oh no, you are right, the Tracy's gain NOTHING by bad mouthing Parker


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## Milt G. (Aug 10, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> oh no, you are right, the Tracy's gain NOTHING by bad mouthing Parker


 
Hello,
I see your point, I think...?
So...  What is the motive, or the impetus?

Why would they, or anyone, bad mouth Ed Parker for no apparent gain?

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 10, 2009)

topic for another thread


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## marlon (Aug 10, 2009)

or not...


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## Twin Fist (Aug 10, 2009)

true that


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## KenpoDave (Aug 10, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Kindly point me to where Chow, Parker, Emperado, and Doc, all bashed each other. We have one dubious "interview" with Chow where he spposedly says something negative about Parker. Chow never ran down Emperado at all. Emperado gave Parker an 8th degree and said he did great things for Kenpo. Parker never ran down Chow's or Emperado's abilities that I ever heard of. And Those guys never trashed Doc either that I know of. If he ever said anything negative about them, then I've never read it either.


 
You pointed out one of the things that Chow said already.  I have talked to a few of Ed Parker's first generation guys that have told me some of the things he would privately say about Chow.  He discouraged some of his students from attending Chow seminars when Chow was in the states.  Chow and Parker were, at times, crossways with each other concerning Parker's success in the states, and things were said both directions.  Chow promoted himself to 15th degree in response to Parker's promotion to 10th.  I don't give much credence to the statements.  People say what they say when they are trying to be top-dog.

I pointed it out because this bashing is certainly not new, and not limited.

There is a statement written by Emperado recognizing Thomas Mitose as the inheritor of his father's art, and in that statement, there is recognition of James Mitose as the 21st Grandmaster of his family art.

As for Doc, no, I don't recall anything he has written or said negatively about any of these men.  But he often criticizes Ed Parker's commercial system, and that could certainly be considered bashing.  It could certainly be inferred that way, whether Doc is implying so or not.  Doc has been openly critical of some of Ed Parker's other black belts, which could be taken as an insult to the standards and judgement of Ed Parker.  And refusing to acknowledge Emperado and Chow, both teachers of Parker, as being part of his lineage, could be inferred the same way.

Does Doc mean it that way?  I don't know.  Probably not.  But you get my point.  The reader brings his own perception to what he reads.  

But again, the conversation has devolved to how terrible a martial artist Mitose was, yet, the martial art that most of us here consider to be rather superior, and most of the martial artists that we respect the most, are a direct result of his influence.

My question remains:  Why is it so important to remove James Mitose from the history of kenpo?

All my instructors have shown me "kinnygarten stuff."


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## KenpoDave (Aug 10, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello, Mr. Hopper...
> Do you tend to practice the kata during private instruction classes and not in the regular "open group" classes?
> 
> Thank you,
> Milt G.


 
Yes.  Pieces of kata are drilled during the group classes.  But the full, formal exercises are taught in private instruction and most of my students work them outside of class.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 10, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> actually, there is plenty of trash talking in Kenpo history.
> 
> mind you, it pretty much all comes from someone named tracy, and is about everyone NOT named tracy.......


 
Not true.  MOST of the trash talking in kenpo history is on forums such as this, and is directed towards people named Tracy about things written between 10-12 years ago.  Or Mitose.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

ok Dave, whatever you say


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## yorkshirelad (Aug 11, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> Doc has been openly critical of some of Ed Parker's other black belts, which could be taken as an insult to the standards and judgement of Ed Parker. And refusing to acknowledge Emperado and Chow, both teachers of Parker, as being part of his lineage, could be inferred the same way.


Doc may have been critical of some of Mr Parker's students, but his views of Mr Parker and his system have come from personal experience and seem to be devoid of hero worship. As far as I'm concerned, this is rather refreshing. Too many people tend to let their unbridled love get in the way of an unbiased perspective. This is one of the reasons that when Doc speaks, people listen.

As for Doc refusing to acknowledge Chow or Emperado as a part of his lineage, this is also somewhat understandable as Mr Parker's system became such that it did not resemble what Chow was doing. It became an art unto itself and because of this, it could be argued that th lineage began with Mr Parker.

As for bashing. It seems to me that the only bashing is on websites such as this.


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## mwd0818 (Aug 11, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> Doc may have been critical of some of Mr Parker's students, but his views of Mr Parker and his system have come from personal experience and seem to be devoid of hero worship. As far as I'm concerned, this is rather refreshing. Too many people tend to let their unbridled love get in the way of an unbiased perspective. This is one of the reasons that when Doc speaks, people listen.
> 
> As for Doc refusing to acknowledge Chow or Emperado as a part of his lineage, this is also somewhat understandable as Mr Parker's system became such that it did not resemble what Chow was doing. It became an art unto itself and because of this, it could be argued that th lineage began with Mr Parker.
> 
> As for bashing. It seems to me that the only bashing is on websites such as this.




Two points - one, not surprising that Doc refuses to acknowledge Emperado in his lineage.  From Mr. Bishop's interview with Mr. Emperado when he asked how well he knew Mr. Parker:



> [FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana]EMPERADO: Before he started training with Professor Chow, Ed trained with me for about 2 weeks . . . [/FONT]



The rest of the interview can be found here.  I've trained with a lot of people for a few weeks . . . wouldn't put them in my "lineage" either.  As for Chow, can't comment.

Second, I'll give you that Doc can be rather abrasive.  He doesn't really care what others think of him and says what he thinks.  Anyone who does that is bound to piss some people off.  However, I have yet to see any comment made from Doc that is actually going after anyone.  If he sees something, he gives his opinion.  You might not agree with it, but Doc at least will back up his opinion.  I have yet to hear him say anything unfounded.


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## Danjo (Aug 11, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> You pointed out one of the things that Chow said already. I have talked to a few of Ed Parker's first generation guys that have told me some of the things he would privately say about Chow. He discouraged some of his students from attending Chow seminars when Chow was in the states. Chow and Parker were, at times, crossways with each other concerning Parker's success in the states, and things were said both directions. Chow promoted himself to 15th degree in response to Parker's promotion to 10th. I don't give much credence to the statements. People say what they say when they are trying to be top-dog.


 
What I pointed out was what one person said Chow said. For various reasons, I don't entirely trust that "interview". But even if it's true, he was "bashing" Parker for thinking that he was the "King of Kenpo" not saying his skill was inadequate.



KenpoDave said:


> I pointed it out because this bashing is certainly not new, and not limited.


 It's not, but I still don't see where you showed us that these men all bashed each other.


KenpoDave said:


> There is a statement written by Emperado recognizing Thomas Mitose as the inheritor of his father's art, and in that statement, there is recognition of James Mitose as the 21st Grandmaster of his family art.


True. Where does it say that the art is any good, or that what Thomas teaches is the same thing that Emperado saw Mitose teach?



KenpoDave said:


> As for Doc, no, I don't recall anything he has written or said negatively about any of these men. But he often criticizes Ed Parker's commercial system, and that could certainly be considered bashing. It could certainly be inferred that way, whether Doc is implying so or not. Doc has been openly critical of some of Ed Parker's other black belts, which could be taken as an insult to the standards and judgement of Ed Parker. And refusing to acknowledge Emperado and Chow, both teachers of Parker, as being part of his lineage, could be inferred the same way.


 It could only be taken as bashing if one chose to take it that way. Most people that are critical of EPAK are only familiar with the commercial system. That system didn't sum up what Parker was all about.


KenpoDave said:


> Does Doc mean it that way? I don't know. Probably not. But you get my point. The reader brings his own perception to what he reads.


 So now you're saying that if the reader _believes_ that Doc or whomever was bashing someone, then they were?


KenpoDave said:


> But again, the conversation has devolved to how terrible a martial artist Mitose was, yet, the martial art that most of us here consider to be rather superior, and most of the martial artists that we respect the most, are a direct result of his influence.


 
Never said he was "terrible", but rather very basic in what he taught compared to what's taught now a days. He was the acorn to the mighty oak tree. 



KenpoDave said:


> My question remains: Why is it so important to remove James Mitose from the history of kenpo?
> 
> All my instructors have shown me "kinnygarten stuff."


 
We all learned basic stuff. It wasn't _all_ we learned though. But apparently that's all Mitose showed Chow, Emperado, Parker and Chapel.

I don't care if someone has him in their lineage or not. One might argue why _your_ family tree doesn't have Mitose's Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandfather on it since he was the supposed founder of Mitose's system. We all draw the line where we think it matters.


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## miguksaram (Aug 13, 2009)

Hello,

First I would like to thank you all.  All this time I thought TKD forums was the only place where bickering over who is what and which is the real way existed.  Luckily there is Kempo/Kenpo too.  

I'm just throwing in some obvious points here, but I didn't see them mentioned, or perhaps glazed over them.  First Kempo/Kenpo is the same word.  The most correct way of spelling it would Kenpo based on the kanji or so I was told by my Japanese friend.  Secondly don't we have to take in consideration that Chow also learned chuan'fa from his family as well as Kenpo form Mitose.  This would be a good reason for the difference of what Mitose taught and what was being taught by Chow. 

It was my understanding (note: not stating this as fact, just an understanding) that Mitose studied under Motobu hence, as well as learned his own family art of Jujitsu. From what I heard, Motobu was an uncle of his. Of course this may just be a family friend who he called uncle or it was his senior, it may not have been an actual blood relative.  Can anyone eloborate on this?

Finally, while character does play a role in the making of a martial artist, what one might do on the outside world doesn't necessarily mean they do the same with their martial arts.  Mitose may have been a crook in regular life but his martial arts may have been good regardless of his character.


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## Danjo (Aug 13, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Hello,
> 
> First I would like to thank you all. All this time I thought TKD forums was the only place where bickering over who is what and which is the real way existed. Luckily there is Kempo/Kenpo too.
> 
> ...


 
The Motobu connection is spurious according to Chosei Motobu who says that Mitose neither trained with his father, nor was he related to him. Most likely the connection is far more mundane. Mitose plagiarized huge portions of Motobu's book to make his own (including actual photographs from it). Motobu's book came to Hawaii in the 1930's and Mitose likely bought a copy of it then. Mitose also only taught the Nihanchi Shodan kata, which was also the only kata shown in Motobu's book. Motobu taught other kata (Nihanchi nidan and sandan as well as Bassai and one he made up called the Bear Kata) but they were not in his book, so Mitose had no way of learning them.

P.S. 

There's also no real good answer to the question of why would a _Japanese_ Kenpo system that had been handed down from one generation to the next for 20 generations use an _Okinawan_ kata as it's only taught form?


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## miguksaram (Aug 13, 2009)

Danjo said:


> The Motobu connection is spurious according to Chosei Motobu who says that Mitose neither trained with his father, nor was he related to him. Most likely the connection is far more mundane. Mitose plagiarized huge portions of Motobu's book to make his own (including actual photographs from it). Motobu's book came to Hawaii in the 1930's and Mitose likely bought a copy of it then. Mitose also only taught the Nihanchi Shodan kata, which was also the only kata shown in Motobu's book. Motobu taught other kata (Nihanchi nidan and sandan as well as Bassai and one he made up called the Bear Kata) but they were not in his book, so Mitose had no way of learning them.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> There's also no real good answer to the question of why would a _Japanese_ Kenpo system that had been handed down from one generation to the next for 20 generations use an _Okinawan_ kata as it's only taught form?


Thanks Danjo.  I haven't been involved in Kenpo for a long time.  My Kenpo lineage stems from Juchnik's Kempo (yes I know, another controversial person in Kenpo.  So before anyone goes off on one of those fun tagents that people like to start about him, let me just say, I really don't give a crap what you think of the man.  I like what he teaches.) Anyways, these were some of the things I have heard so any outside perspective is good to know.


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## Danjo (Aug 13, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Thanks Danjo. I haven't been involved in Kenpo for a long time. My Kenpo lineage stems from Juchnik's Kempo (yes I know, another controversial person in Kenpo. So before anyone goes off on one of those fun tagents that people like to start about him, let me just say, I really don't give a crap what you think of the man. I like what he teaches.) Anyways, these were some of the things I have heard so any outside perspective is good to know.


 
Don't worry. Just search through the various threads to find out what others think about about Juchnik and others. 

One has to seperate out a man from his talents. If you like what he teaches, then enjoy it and train hard.


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## miguksaram (Aug 13, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Don't worry. Just search through the various threads to find out what others think about about Juchnik and others.
> 
> One has to seperate out a man from his talents. If you like what he teaches, then enjoy it and train hard.


Agreed.  I am actually training in Shorei-ryu Karate under Sensei John Sharkey now.  I left the Kenpo scene some time ago.  My main instructor for it was Sensei Jon Ludwig and I trained with Juchnik when he would come in for seminars.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 13, 2009)

Danjo said:


> It could only be taken as bashing if one chose to take it that way. Most people that are critical of EPAK are only familiar with the commercial system. That system didn't sum up what Parker was all about.


 


> So now you're saying that if the reader _believes_ that Doc or whomever was bashing someone, then they were?


 
Thank you, Dan.  These two statements were the point that I hoped one would get from my post.  I used Doc because his love of and loyalty to Ed Parker are unquestionable.  Yet, he is often critical of Ed Parker's commercial system or "motion kenpo" and therefore critical of those who teach it/practice it.  So, is "bashing" Ed Parker's creation and those he elevated to positions of leadership the same as bashing Ed Parker?

Will Tracy, in his articles that everyone loves to bash but rarely actually read, is very critical of the shape that modern day kenpo and its proponents have taken.  In this respect, he and Doc are very often on the same page.  Is "bashing" Ed Parker's creation and those he elevated to positions of leadership the same as bashing Ed Parker?

So, yes, Dan, whether or not bashing is actually going on most often boils down to the perception of the reader, and more than that, the perception the reader has of the writer rather than what the writer actually writes.

As for bashing Ed Parker personally, Will's articles are written based on his personal experiences of a man that he called friend for many years, but not "teacher."  His memories are more often of Ed Parker off the mat rather than on, because that was not the nature of their relationship.  But more than anything, his recollection of the things that Ed Parker said or did, or of the timeline of certain events, calls into question the "facts" upon which many of the current leaders of American Kenpo have built their kingdoms upon.



> I don't care if someone has him in their lineage or not. One might argue why _your_ family tree doesn't have Mitose's Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandfather on it since he was the supposed founder of Mitose's system. We all draw the line where we think it matters.


 
That is an interesting point.  My family tree (not my kenpo tree) traces back and ends at Caesar Augustus.  I, since I was about 12, always wondered why we didn't go ahead and throw Julius on there since he was the most famous Caesar.  It's sort of like all those people who have an "Indian Princess" in their ancestry.  Well, her dad was a Chief!  So, lines are drawn, I guess, at points of convenience.  I include Mitose, and by default, all of his teachers and their teachers.

My question is to why it is so important to remove James Mitose from kenpo history.  And, if it is so important to separate the man from his talents, why is it that his trial and conviction make him so unpalatable as a kenpo practitioner?  After all, everything that is the Oak is contained in the Acorn.


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## Danjo (Aug 14, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> Thank you, Dan. These two statements were the point that I hoped one would get from my post. I used Doc because his love of and loyalty to Ed Parker are unquestionable. Yet, he is often critical of Ed Parker's commercial system or "motion kenpo" and therefore critical of those who teach it/practice it. So, is "bashing" Ed Parker's creation and those he elevated to positions of leadership the same as bashing Ed Parker?
> 
> Will Tracy, in his articles that everyone loves to bash but rarely actually read, is very critical of the shape that modern day kenpo and its proponents have taken. In this respect, he and Doc are very often on the same page. Is "bashing" Ed Parker's creation and those he elevated to positions of leadership the same as bashing Ed Parker?
> 
> ...


 
Well, there are those like Mills Crenshaw who openly denounce much of what Will Tracy has written (Mills was there). 

As to leaving Mitose in one's lineage, I would guess that would depend on the person. I don't really care about leaving him in one way or the other.

The Acorn might contain the DNA of the oak in it, but it isn't a big tree, it's just a small nut.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 14, 2009)

In my experience the differences are as much in the art itself as it is about ego and money. The art often takes a back seat and that's unacceptable to me and saddening as many of those who perpetuate the "division" have much they could offer.


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## mwd0818 (Aug 14, 2009)

Danjo said:


> The Acorn might contain the DNA of the oak in it, but it isn't a big tree, it's just a small nut.



Mitose = small nut

Got it - thanks Dan!


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## Milt G. (Aug 14, 2009)

Danjo said:


> There's also no real good answer to the question of why would a _Japanese_ Kenpo system that had been handed down from one generation to the next for 20 generations use an _Okinawan_ kata as it's only taught form?


 
Hello,
Many of the kata practiced today in Japan were originally Okinawan, or from Okinawa.
I was told that Okinawa was the "way station" for the martial arts from China to Japan, in many cases.
It was also a perfecture of Japan, I believe?  Therefore the kata were basically considered Japanese anyway.

And I agree...  There is no real agreement as to Motobu's influence on early Kenpo.  Could have been just "creative" name dropping, as is quite prevalent today.

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Aug 14, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Don't worry. Just search through the various threads to find out what others think about about Juchnik and others.
> 
> One has to seperate out a man from his talents. If you like what he teaches, then enjoy it and train hard.


 
Hello, Mr. Weston...

I fully agree with the seperation of a man "with his talents".  Bruce Juchnik is a wonderfully skilled martial artist.  Perhaps the best I have ever seen, overall. (and I have been around a bit)  But, maybe not the person you would like to spend much of your time "off the mats" with.  This is true of many of the Kenpo seniors, in my opinion.

I think that this sentiment is mirrored by the Kenpo seniors...  I am sure that not many of them wish to spend their "off the mat" time with many of us "underlings" either.  

Thank you.
Milt G.


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## Xinglu (Aug 14, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello, Mr. Weston...
> 
> I fully agree with the seperation of a man "with his talents".  Bruce Juchnik is a wonderfully skilled martial artist.  Perhaps the best I have ever seen, overall. (and I have been around a bit)  But, maybe not the person you would like to spend much of your time "off the mats" with.  This is true of many of the Kenpo seniors, in my opinion.


Agreed!

It was also a different time.  I have heard countless stories about how Chow had an uncanny ability to talk his way into a fight.  That a lot of the early Kenpo guys enjoyed "pressure testing" their arts on the streets in real situations. Ethics seemed lost on a lot of these guys back in the day.  Times were also different and poverty can make people do things that other's are all to ready to criticize.  

Until I walk a mile in Mitose's shoes (which will never happen, times and people are different now) I cannot judge his character.  Furthermore, I don't feel it is my place.

What I can do is look at the quality of Martial Artist that he trained.  Chow, IMHO being one of many great martial artists.  Clearly Chow saw some validity and potential in what Mitose taught or he wouldn't have "improved" and evolved the art.  Kenpo, like any other MA, must continue to evolve and improve in order to stay current.

So I thank Mitose for pointing Chow and others in the direction of the "moon," and I have enjoyed the journey thus far.  It's not over either!

Look at what the first generation changed, Chow's art barely resembled Mitoses'.  Look at the second generation and how much they changed from chow - Parker, Kuoha.... I mean talk about taking things to whole new levels!  I, like most kenpoka, do not believe in "pure breed" MA.  We explore and learn and grow with each generation and the art changes respectively.  This is good.  This doesn't mean that Mitose or any other "less evolved generations" taught junk.  It worked for their time!

Where will generations 3 and four take us? Who knows, but I do know I'm excited to see!


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## mwd0818 (Aug 14, 2009)

Xinglu said:


> ....Where will generations 3 and four take us? Who knows, but I do know I'm excited to see!



And while I don't know the ages of all those who have posted, it is interesting to note that we are probably among the people that will be responsible for that growth.  It's a fine line in keeping with tradition, what works, and working on letting Kenpo evolve as a living and breathing art.


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## miguksaram (Aug 14, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> And while I don't know the ages of all those who have posted, it is interesting to note that we are probably among the people that will be responsible for that growth. It's a fine line in keeping with tradition, what works, and working on letting Kenpo evolve as a living and breathing art.


 
Exactly.  I have been in martial arts going on 29 years.  That is a life time to some and a drop in a bucket for others.  However within those years, I have seen a lot of changes in martial art culture and systems.  I have seen evolutions and de-evolution of some arts.  I have two sons that are have been dojo babies.  I can only imagine what changes they will see as they progress in the arts.  Good or bad, it is a ride worth riding.


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## marlon (Aug 16, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> And while I don't know the ages of all those who have posted, it is interesting to note that we are probably among the people that will be responsible for that growth.  It's a fine line in keeping with tradition, what works, and working on letting Kenpo evolve as a living and breathing art.



I think you should be right about our generation.  But only if there are enough kempo martial art practioners out there willing to fail and be ridiculed and defend thier ideas and train away as many errors as they can. There has to be the honesty with self the honesty that comes from testing ones ideas against resistance physical and verbal and the push for something real, somethng that gives to ones students and to kempo in general instead of simply attempting to ones own... Self legend.  I hope many join in this effort

sincerely,
Marlon


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## Doc (Aug 17, 2009)

marlon said:


> I think you should be right about our generation.  But only if there are enough kempo martial art practioners out there willing to fail and be ridiculed and defend thier ideas and train away as many errors as they can. There has to be the honesty with self the honesty that comes from testing ones ideas against resistance physical and verbal and the push for something real, somethng that gives to ones students and to kempo in general instead of simply attempting to ones own... Self legend.  I hope many join in this effort
> 
> sincerely,
> Marlon



Well said grasshopper.  and I might add, keep the cup empty for those who have the tea to share with you.


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## Xinglu (Aug 17, 2009)

Doc said:


> Well said grasshopper.  and I might add, keep the cup empty for those who have the tea to share with you.



I can't emphasize this enough! Sometimes it is the unlearned amongst us that have the most to teach us.  Having one's cup empty and the humility to sit with them can be one of the most enlightening experiences we can have.


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## Danjo (Aug 27, 2009)

jukado1 said:


> Let me cover 2 things, Ist, Bruce ""GAVE" Rick Nelson a karate black belt, Again words without knowledge are noise, Were you there, I was, NOBODY GAVE RICK ANYTHING, For his era Rick was a good black belt, All of our rank requirements were Written out, Rick trained 2 nights a week after class, And as one of Bruce's assistant instructors on occasion I was asked to assist, As a throwing dummy, Heavy bag and twisting/choking dummy,  And for this era Rick was pretty good, He passed all his forms and basics tests and entered the inter school tournaments to earn points for his sparring competition, Rick was in good shape and learned very fast, In this era the most important thing for testing were the katas/forms, Rick was not going to make anybody forget Mike Stone or Pat Burleson, But he was a good black belt, Rick trained NOT to be an expert, He saw karate as a fun hobby, Just as he did tennis and trapeze work, Which he also did, And as good self defense training.
> 
> 2nd. As far as Bruce's training, I st As has been said, His parents were both judo black belt, This is before the era of specialization, the "judo" of the day was the full spectrum of martial arts, Sure the judo man did the throws and falls and ground work that we think of today as judo, PLUS they did atemi waza, Using the hands and feet to strike the nerve centers and pressure points of the opponent, Think karate, Also the holds, Locks, Chokes and escape from holds that was the old style jiu jitsu/aikido, The schools that the tegner's worked from were among the most respected of the day, There were always traveling Japanese black belts coming through, And in that era there was not the same level of little children being jealous of each other, There were MARTIAL ARTISTS sharing with each other, Many of these martial artist of all styles were willing to share and to improve all those who were true martial artists, And 1 last thing, I do know a little something about martial arts fighting, Some of those I've trained with and learned from include, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone (seminars ) Howard Jackson and Howard's boxing trainer Julio Flores, The one thing these men have in commen is there fighters, And while I'm not a great fighter, Nothing I've seen from these men was that different than what I learned from that "fraud" Bruce Tegner, Did they do it better, Hell yes, I knew these men when they were among the best in the world, I started with Bruce in 1959/60 Long after he had retired from competition,
> PS, I always hear this garbage that Bruce was the Chris Pisso/ltx of his era, That's bull, When I started training in June 1959 My first course was $29.00 for 12 one hour classes, I then upgraded to 30 classes for 59.00, Once I was allowed to join the judo club it was $10.00 per month or $100.00 per year, And lets talk about being commercial, After class there was at lest a one hour practice time, Watched over by the black and brown belts, Compare that to the schools now where they run you through like cattle, Your 50 minute hour is over, Now get out of the way so the next herd oops class can come through.
> Again for those of you having a kenpo discussion I'm sorry to intrude.


 
But you still never answered the question about whether Tegner trained live with those people who ranked him, or just copied his moves off of an 8mm film.

The Judo atemi etc. is cool, but it's not Karate per se, and certainly wouldn't qualify you for rank in karate.


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## Milt G. (Aug 27, 2009)

Hello,
Why does it slant Bruce Tegner one way, or the other, because he gave Ricky Nelson a black belt? 

Ed Parker "sold" Elvis an 8th degree black belt.  The same day as Dave Hebler, one of Elvis' teachers at the time, received his 7th degree black belt.  That was in 1974.

I am not at all trying to undercut the fact that Elvis was a legitimate black belt.  Or Ricky Nelson for that matter.  I argee that Elvis did quite a bit for the art, but a bump from 1st to 8th?  Interesting?

Oddly, this type of thing happens from time to time and should not be held against the recipient of the ranking.  Or perhaps the teacher?  All those qualified, have the right to do what they see fit for their art and students, many will say.

More of my two cents.  

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2009)

actually, Parker didnt bump Elvis from 1st to 8th

there are tons of pictures of elvis wearing his 5th, 6th and 7th degree belts. Oddly, there are no pics of him hearing his 8th.....


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## Carol (Aug 27, 2009)

There has been plenty of disagreements over Elvis' promotion, too...that continue to this day.  Just because Mr. Parker did it doesn't mean everyone nodded and agreed.


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## jukado1 (Aug 27, 2009)

From Danjo:
"But you still never answered the question about whether *Tegner* trained live with those people who ranked him, or just copied his moves off of an 8mm film.

The Judo atemi etc. is cool, but it's not Karate per se, and certainly wouldn't qualify you for rank in karate."

=++++++++++===============++++++++ 
 Since I guess you weren't around in the 60's and have no knowledge of the karate of the day I will TRY to enlighten you,  First a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, See, You've learned something already, (I hope) Most everything as far as rank in karate was kata, 99 % of the black belts of that era were dancers, A lot like today, So your "STYLE" was the forms/Kata's that you did, Bruce knew how to punch, Whether you call it atemi waza or karate the punch is the same, And Bruce was an effective fighter, First he proved it in sport judo, And he was a trainer for teachers of hand to hand combat during the Korean war, OOPS, I mean Korean police action, So for rank testing he just had to know the Shukokai Kata's, There were few karate schools that were real fighting oriented, One was the closed workouts at Ed Parker's, The going into the back ally and doing 100 + push ups on the asphalt, Another school that turned out fighters was Tak Kubota, But most of the martial arts schools were more into turning out Japanese or Chinese then fighters, I have now been around martial arts since 1959 and do have some knowledge of what a martial artist looks like, Bruce was for real,  

Once again sorry to change the subject, But I'm getting sick of the unknowing telling how it was.
WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE ARE NOISE !


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2009)

well, lets put it this way

Both Ed Parker and Al Tracy, who WERE around at the time said tegner was a laughing stock. Doc too for that matter, and he was around then.

i will take thier word for it.


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## Carol (Aug 27, 2009)

jukado1 said:


> From Danjo:
> "But you still never answered the question about whether *Tegner* trained live with those people who ranked him, or just copied his moves off of an 8mm film.
> 
> The Judo atemi etc. is cool, but it's not Karate per se, and certainly wouldn't qualify you for rank in karate."
> ...



Which still doesn't answer Danjo's question...


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## shaolinmonkmark (Aug 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> well, lets put it this way
> 
> Both Ed Parker and Al Tracy, who WERE around at the time said tegner was a laughing stock. Doc too for that matter, and he was around then.
> 
> i will take thier word for it.


 
I concur with twin fist.


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## jukado1 (Aug 27, 2009)

From Twin Fists:
"Both Ed Parker and Al Tracy, who WERE around at the time said tegner was a laughing stock. Doc too for that matter, and he was around then.

i will take thier word for it."
=====================================

First I also knew Ed Parker slightly, I met him at Bruce Tegner's school on a few occasions, He never said that in front of Bruce or I, So therefor you are saying he was a back stabber, Sorry, The Ed Parker I knew was a stand up guy, As far as The Tracys, They were good at selling karate school franchise's, On the Tracy's website thy state, "Bruce tegner was ridiculed for giving Rick Nelson a black belt," While stating that Ed Parker was responsible for Elvis getting a Black Belt in karate, Bull, Elvis's belt was given before Ed was in the picture, And their knowledge of bruce Tegner or Rick Nelson was very limited if not nonexistent. And as far as Doc, I have very little knowledge of him, As at the time I had no knowledge of him, In fact outside of the kenpo world I still have no knowledge of him, Only in this thread have I ever heard of him mentioning Bruce.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 27, 2009)

What's this thread about again?


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## mwd0818 (Aug 27, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> What's this thread about again?



My kenpo's better than yours.


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## John Bishop (Aug 27, 2009)

Well, my father had the Judo Club at the Los Angeles Athletic Club from around 1955 to 1960.  Before that he had the Judo Club at Camp Pendleton.  Before that he trained and received his black belt at the Kodokan.  
Many times I observed his classes at the LAAC, and his weekend privates in our backyard.  He taught me, my sister, and some neighborhood kids at the house for a few years off and on.  His black belts would come and train in the backyard a lot.  
Other then a punch here and there to soften up someone for a throw, or finish someone on the ground, I never saw anything resembling karate in the judo he and his Kodokan trained black belts did. 
If your saying that Mr. Tegner learned karate katas, stances, strikes, and kicks from 8mm film, so be it.  Obviously, he did well with his martial arts career from there.  And people will form there own opinions about his and his students abilities.  Every since the modern advent of video training courses, there is strong arguments for and against this type of training.   
I, like many grew up reading his books and was curious about his actual training in all the arts he wrote about.


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## jukado1 (Aug 27, 2009)

For those who want to continue to attack Bruce Tegner start another thread, This has nothing to do with kenpo.
 I will not interfere here again.


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## Carol (Aug 27, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> What's this thread about again?




Back in the day there was a guy that did martial arts and sometimes there was controversy.


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## marlon (Aug 27, 2009)

Doc said:


> Well said grasshopper.  and I might add, keep the cup empty for those who have the tea to share with you.



I love tea , sir


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## Milt G. (Aug 27, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> actually, Parker didnt bump Elvis from 1st to 8th
> 
> there are tons of pictures of elvis wearing his 5th, 6th and 7th degree belts. Oddly, there are no pics of him hearing his 8th.....


 
Hello,
Again...  Not taking anything away from Elvis.  Truly a legitimate 1st black.  But he was "bumped" through all of the ranks from 1st to 8th.  I saw a photo of him in his 8th belt.  He did do quite a bit for Kenpo.  The true meaning of 8th Dan is "important person in the art" from the Japanese standpoint.  He truly was an important person in Kenpo. 

My intent with my post was to clarify that just because someone promotes a celebrity, does not make them dishonest or a fraud.  I had the comment about Rick Nelson in mind.  And, hey...  Didn't Jhoon Rhee promote Richard Nixon to 7th or 8th degree?

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 27, 2009)

> First I also knew Ed Parker slightly, I met him at Bruce Tegner's school on a few occasions, He never said that in front of Bruce or I, So therefor you are saying he was a back stabber, Sorry, The Ed Parker I knew was a stand up guy, As far as The Tracys, They were good at selling karate school franchise's, On the Tracy's website thy state, "Bruce tegner was ridiculed for giving Rick Nelson a black belt," While stating that Ed Parker was responsible for Elvis getting a Black Belt in karate, Bull, Elvis's belt was given before Ed was in the picture, And their knowledge of bruce Tegner or Rick Nelson was very limited if not nonexistent. And as far as Doc, I have very little knowledge of him, As at the time I had no knowledge of him, In fact outside of the kenpo world I still have no knowledge of him, Only in this thread have I ever heard of him mentioning Bruce.


 
What I have heard Al Tracy say about Bruce Tegner was that Tegner was the object of ridicule, but his books were at least partially responsible for the karate boom of the 70s.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> Didn't Jhoon Rhee promote Richard Nixon to 7th or 8th degree?
> 
> Thank you,
> Milt G.



never heard of that, but it wouldnt shock me, since that would be a CLEARLY honorary belt


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## Doc (Aug 27, 2009)

KenpoDave said:


> What I have heard Al Tracy say about Bruce Tegner was that Tegner was the object of ridicule, but his books were at least partially responsible for the karate boom of the 70s.


Al was right, and his books are still the most widely available and read. Ed Parker even invited him to the first IKC over the objections of most. Mr. Parker calmed Oshima down by telling the crowd of angry traditionalist masters, "How is anybody going to know how good you are, unless they have something to compare you with?"

Notoriety and skill are mutually exclusive. Many actors and "wannabe's" contributed to the boon in the marketplace, by "acting" martial arts in film. Even though James Coburn ultimately ended up with Bruce Lee, did he do anything in any of the "Derek Flint" moves that looked remotely legit? Or Dean Martin's Matt Helm series?


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## Doc (Aug 27, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> Again...  Not taking anything away from Elvis.  Truly a legitimate 1st black.  But he was "bumped" through all of the ranks from 1st to 8th.  I saw a photo of him in his 8th belt.  He did do quite a bit for Kenpo.  The true meaning of 8th Dan is "important person in the art" from the Japanese standpoint.  He truly was an important person in Kenpo.
> 
> My intent with my post was to clarify that just because someone promotes a celebrity, does not make them dishonest or a fraud.  I had the comment about Rick Nelson in mind.  And, hey...  Didn't Jhoon Rhee promote Richard Nixon to 7th or 8th degree?
> ...


Legitimate educational institutions are notorious for giving out honorary doctorates to celebrities and big money donors. ALL OF THEM, Duh!


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## Carol (Aug 27, 2009)

Doc said:


> Legitimate educational institutions are notorious for giving out honorary doctorates to celebrities and big money donors. ALL OF THEM, Duh!



Yeah, but it was one helluva way to get Billy Joel to speak at my graduation 

Plus my school only offered undergrad degrees so an honorary doctorate wasn't really taking rice out of anyone's bowl.


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## Milt G. (Aug 28, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Yeah, but it was one helluva way to get Billy Joel to speak at my graduation
> 
> Plus my school only offered undergrad degrees so an honorary doctorate wasn't really taking rice out of anyone's bowl.


 
Hello,

The proper, and most often used, reason for honorary degrees in academia, I think.

And...  Billy Joel is not dumb...  Somehow he "earned" his way into his and Elton John's "Face to Face" tour...  The most lucrative tour these days, it is said.  

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 28, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Back in the day there was a guy that did martial arts and sometimes there was controversy.


 
Oh, that never happens.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Aug 28, 2009)

Doc said:


> Legitimate educational institutions are notorious for giving out honorary doctorates to celebrities and big money donors. ALL OF THEM, Duh!


 





Why, certianly, you must not be refering to bogus arts that "Just give Rank if you have alot of money"
LOL!!!!!


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## Milt G. (Aug 30, 2009)

Hello,

I would think that the "Kenpo-JiuJitsu" of James Mitose is the original art of the Kenpo most of us now study.  From a lineage standpoint, anyway.

Of course, it has been through the "sieve" so many times and for so long that it holds little resemblence to the original art that Mitose taught to William Chow, etc...

Heck...  I know students that perform "their" Kenpo differently then their own teachers Kenpo...  The "variations" can be endless.  
Go figure...  

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 30, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would think that the "Kenpo-JiuJitsu" of James Mitose is the original art of the Kenpo most of us now study.  From a lineage standpoint, anyway.
> 
> ...



rare that i can agree with an entire post


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