# Kote Gaeshi - flipping out!



## K-man (Mar 9, 2013)

Having just written of kote gaeshi in another thread I cama across this blog which echoes my own sentiment.



> Kote Gaeshi, the wrist return is a classical aiki throwing form. The physics of it seems irrational to the new student. How could a person be thrown from a wrist connection into a head over heels flip?
> 
> The answer that is given by many Aiki teachers is
> 
> ...



Any thoughts?      :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Mar 9, 2013)

I think this throw definitely could be a pain compliance throw, but there are several ways of taking a person down without applying pain.  You can make a big circle and lock the shoulder up to take someone down or you could control the elbow, change directions and whip the person with a more traditional arm whipping motion.


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## K-man (Mar 9, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I think this throw definitely could be a pain compliance throw, but there are several ways of taking a person down without applying pain.  You can make a big circle and lock the shoulder up to take someone down or you could control the elbow, change directions and whip the person with a more traditional arm whipping motion.


This is a take down I can do from the hip. Even done high there is no way you can roll or flip.  The only possible way you might flip is if it is done from further out where uke's arm is almost straight, in which case you risk being punched with his other hand as he turns in to you. The way we do kote gaeshi does not put pressure on the wrist and there is no pain until it is way too late to respond. Uke falls straight back. This is one of the few locks that I might actually just go along with to surprise uke with the reversal. With the reversal of the hold it may be feasible to turn the choke into a hip throw but I have never seen it done. In our dojo the change of direction and arm whip is only taught to beginners.  :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Mar 9, 2013)

K-man said:


> This is a take down I can do from the hip. Even done high there is no way you can roll or flip.  The only possible way you might flip is if it is done from further out where uke's arm is almost straight, in which case you risk being punched with his other hand as he turns in to you. The way we do kote gaeshi does not put pressure on the wrist and there is no pain until it is way too late to respond. Uke falls straight back. This is one of the few locks that I might actually just go along with to surprise uke with the reversal. With the reversal of the hold it may be feasible to turn the choke into a hip throw but I have never seen it done. In our dojo the change of direction and arm whip is only taught to beginners.  :asian:



Beginners can handle the sutemi?  Wow!

You know, on the other hand, having uke train to flip out of it isn't such a bad thing.  One of the defenses for the wrist breaking part of this technique is to turn into it and then perform a sutemi.  You basically roll out of it in the air.


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## K-man (Mar 9, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Beginners can handle the sutemi?  Wow!
> 
> You know, on the other hand, having uke train to flip out of it isn't such a bad thing.  One of the defenses for the wrist breaking part of this technique is to turn into it and then perform a sutemi.  You basically roll out of it in the air.


Nooh! Nooh! No! Not sutemi.   I thought you were referring to the tenkan kote gaeshi where Uke has reached out with say the right hand which is captured at the wrist with the left hand, spin clockwise to start Uke moving in the same direction, strike with the right fist to Uke's back, then whip back to perform the kote gaeshi. Uke falls backward. There is no opportunity to flip.    :asian:


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## Chris Parker (Mar 9, 2013)

K-man said:


> Having just written of kote gaeshi in another thread I cama across this blog which echoes my own sentiment.
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts?      :asian:



Hey, K-man,

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what I teach my guys... the ukemi is there primarily so that the tori/nage can apply the technique properly without damaging their training partner... in fact, I think I've said as much here a few times myself. Every now and then, I'll demonstrate the difference between the technique down for training (with ukemi), and done for real (without), to show that the "look" of a particular throw, joint lock etc is quite different when done on someone who doesn't know to take the attack. This is just one of the reasons that, in traditional Japanese arts, the "attacking/receiving" side is the senior, or the instructor, not the beginner.


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## zDom (Mar 11, 2013)

For whatever reason, we don't fall on this technique below black belt; just tap out. We do have another wrist lock that uke unwinds the wrist with an air fall.

For dan technique, a version of this with attacker using both hands on grab and using full resistance we take uke to the ground but it is a back fall, not an air "flip." (shrug)


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## Drasken (Mar 11, 2013)

Every time I execute Kote Gaeshi in a real life situation the opponent never flips out of it, but they do go with it and fall down. First time I did it in self defense I almost broke the guy's wrist actually because I had been trained to expect that flip. In fact after lengthy discussion my Sensei decided to address the differences between trained and untrained reactions to techniques even in beginner classes.

Very useful information to have. After all, if I had broken an attacker's wrist I wouldn't beat myself up... but I would feel like I acted outside the philosophy of Aiki.

I believe that it is a correct assumption that most instructors likely don't understand the mechanic so they try to explain it the best they can rather than admit they don't know the answer.

Is it possible to throw someone with this technique? Yes. Is it going to look as cool with the feet flying through the air? Probably not. Is it possible to make this happen even to an untrained opponent? I believe it is possible with full understanding of the technique. But it isn't just body mechanics. I understand body mechanics of the technique very well but never look like Segal when I execute the technique.
Still effective, but not quite as pretty. Maybe in the future though


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## scottcatchot (Aug 15, 2013)

The "high fall" shoulder roll from Kote Gaeshi is due to Uke's ukimi,not the throw. Nage/Tori does need to be slightly farther out, but Uke must move into a position parallel with Nage/Tori and then basically does a leaping shoulder roll over their own arm as the technique is applied to the wrist. We do practice tis in our Aikido sometimes but it is more a practice of flowing and moving together than a self defense. I agree doing it this way opens you up to get punched in the face. It looks cool for demonstrations and it really is a fun fall, but not practical for self defense. The same can be said for all the beautiful high falls. Nage/Tori leaves themselves open to attack when they allow Uke to position for a high fall. As already pointed out when keeping the wrist close to the Hara/ center and executing a definitive cut and torque on the wrist, the fall tends to be more on the back or side.


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