# The Jump Guard and self defense



## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2018)

Considering that like the scissor takedown, the jump guard can potentially break the leg of your assailant;

(warning: graphic stuff)















When would be a good opportunity to use this technique for self defense? Obviously you're not going to want to use it in a multiple assailant situation, but if you're struggling with one assailant and you need to take them down quickly, it seems perfectly reasonable to go for the Jumping guard. Now clearly your guard game needs to be on point (unless you happen to break their leg), but from the guard you can set up all sort of breaks, chokes, sweeps, etc.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 23, 2018)

By using Chinese wrestling rule set, if you (general YOU) use "jump guard" or "pull guard" on your opponent, after the friendly sport match, there will be violent fist fight after that.

From a wrestler point of view, when you use jump guard or pull guard, you are telling your opponent, "I don't know any throwing skill. But I know how to drag you down to the ground. What can you do about it?"

IMO, both jump guard and pull guard can hurt the throwing art big time. Why should anybody want to learn how to throw his opponent over his head if he can just drag his opponent down?

I have been dragged down by both jump guard and pull guard many times. When people did that to me, I always drop my forearm right on their throat. My counter always made my opponent very mad. But I could always said that was just an accident because I lose my balance (Actually I did that on purpose). After that nobody ever wanted to use those moves on me.

Why do you want to give your opponent a chance to body slam you?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Sep 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> By using Chinese wrestling rule set, if you (general YOU) use "jump guard" or "pull guard" on your opponent, after the friendly sport match, there will be violent fist fight after that.


 
I have to inquire more about that, i dont know a lot about Chinese grappling styles.    Most likely outside scope of this thread though.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> From a wrestler point of view, when you use jump guard or pull guard, you are telling your opponent, "I don't know any throwing skill. But I know how to drag you down to the ground. What can you do about it?"
> 
> IMO, both jump guard and pull guard can hurt the throwing art big time. Why should anybody want to learn how to throw his opponent over his head if he can just drag his opponent down?



Well, if its an effective takedown, why should it not be used?



> I have been dragged down by both jump guard and pull guard many times. When people did that to me, I always drop my forearm right on their throat. My counter always made my opponent very mad. But I could always said that was just an accident because I lose my balance (Actually I did that on purpose). After that nobody ever wanted to use those moves on me.
> 
> Why do you want to give your opponent a chance to body slam you?



Every takedown and throw has inherent risks. No biggie.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Considering that like the scissor takedown, the jump guard can potentially break the leg of your assailant;
> 
> (warning: graphic stuff)
> 
> ...


First video.  
If you were in a fight then things would have gone very lucky if you were able to break the leg like that.  The first videos reminds me of lessons that I've learned from doing tons of stance training.  Always bend the knees.  The reason I say I learned it in stance training is because stance training made it a habit for me to have my knees bent.  In short.  Stance training says bend knees.  If he had knee bent, then it would have injured the guy jumping guard.  A solid horse stance would have opened the opportunity to smash his opponent on his knee and would have prevented the top heavy lean caused by standing up too straight.  

If you look at the injured participant, you can see that he locked his knees multiple times before accident.  Here's the count of his locked knee habit.
@ 0:01
@ 0:05 twice at @ 0:05.  First single leg and then both legs with locked knee.
@ 0:06 again both knees lock. 
@ 0:10 both knees lock
@ 0:14  instead of sitting he locks both of his knees again. Resulting in the break

Once he felt that he was in trouble, he should have either started to sit into a stance or smash down on his opponent by giving up his stance. Locked knees are a Sin and will get you in all sorts of trouble.


Second Video:
The Second video was a little better.  In that the woman in white was already in a good position to be in a horse stance.  However, her horse stance was one knee bent and the other straight.  It was as if she tried to back away while in horse by pushing off on her right leg instead of staying in the stance.  Pushing off on her right leg is what made that leg vulnerable. 

Third Video
Horse stance structure is broken.  I can't tell what's going on with the feet positioning but it looks like the structure on the left is broken first making the right vulnerable.  When training horse stance many are taught to push outward in the same direction that the knee gave out.  Being that his left foot structure was not stable, there was probably very little that he could have done, assuming that he was actually trying to get into a horse stance and not trying to do something else.  CMA guys love their stances, except for  Kung Fu Wang. lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people did that to me, I always drop my forearm right on their throat. My counter always made my opponent very mad. But I could always said that was just an accident because I lose my balance (Actually I did that on purpose). After that nobody ever wanted to use those moves on me.


In sports BJJ and in other forms of grappling sports, this is illegal.  According to the Gracies there is a way to do it that prevents from being slammed, but it just seems like the risk is greater than the reward especially if someone reads what you are trying to do.   Size and strength also make a difference.  Not everyone has the leg strength or the back strength to counter it.

As you can see in the video below:  Mess up the technique and fail to cause an incorrect lift, and you'll pay for that mistake with an unpleasant meeting with the ground.







Hanzou said:


> Every takedown and throw has inherent risks. No biggie.


Correct. I make mistakes so I can only afford the risks that will allow me to walk away lol.  Even with my striking.  If the risk of failing = me going to bed early on a gym mat.  Then I won't take it.  The risk is going to be different depending on the skill level of both fighters.   I may take a risk with a beginner or intermediate that I wouldn't take with a high skilled striker.  There some risks I'll take with lower skill grapplers that I would never take against someone of a higher skilled level.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> First video.
> If you were in a fight then things would have gone very lucky if you were able to break the leg like that.  The first videos reminds me of lessons that I've learned from doing tons of stance training.  Always bend the knees.  The reason I say I learned it in stance training is because stance training made it a habit for me to have my knees bent.  In short.  Stance training says bend knees.  If he had knee bent, then it would have injured the guy jumping guard.  A solid horse stance would have opened the opportunity to smash his opponent on his knee and would have prevented the top heavy lean caused by standing up too straight.
> 
> If you look at the injured participant, you can see that he locked his knees multiple times before accident.  Here's the count of his locked knee habit.
> ...



Interesting analysis. 

Here's some more (again, graphic video):














Gruesome Knee Injury Caused By Jumping Guard In A BJJ Tournament

So you think someone could easily avoid this type of break if they've never trained how to counter it? Keep in mind, there's only three ways this can go: Into a Bjj exponent's guard, you somehow catching the Bjjer and being able to slam them, or if you're standing wrong when its pulled your leg snaps in multiple places.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> In sports BJJ and in other forms of grappling sports, this is illegal.  According to the Gracies there is a way to do it that prevents from being slammed, but it just seems like the risk is greater than the reward especially if someone reads what you are trying to do.   Size and strength also make a difference.  Not everyone has the leg strength or the back strength to counter it.
> 
> As you can see in the video below:  Mess up the technique and fail to cause an incorrect lift, and you'll pay for that mistake with an unpleasant meeting with the ground.



Also slamming is legal in MMA and a few fighters have still been able to pull off jumping guard pulls.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 23, 2018)

Rat said:


> I have to inquire more about that, i dont know a lot about Chinese grappling styles.    Most likely outside scope of this thread though.


The Chinese wrestling rule set is very simple. Whoever has 2 points besides his feet touch the ground, he lose that round. So if you use pull guard or jump guard, since your body will touch the ground first, you lose that round already.

The rule set is designed to avoid one body land on another body to cause damage. It's a friendly sport to prevent injury.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well, if its an effective takedown, why should it not be used?.


Your opponent's body weight will land on top of you. What if he drops his elbow joint or knee joint on your head, neck, chest, kidney area, belly, groin? A 180 lb average guy's weight on his elbow joint, or knee joint can cause a lot of damage. When injury happen, who's fault will the judge give?

1. He dropped his elbow on my neck on purpose.
2. He pulled me down, I lose balance, I just tried to maintain balance. It was a pure accident.

IMO, it's very difficult to judge 1 vs. 2 if you are the judge.

Many years ago, someone dropped his elbow joint straight down on top of my heart when I was on the ground. I got back up. Suddenly everything in front of me turned into darkness, and I fell back down again. I was almost killed that day.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Interesting analysis.
> 
> Here's some more (again, graphic video):
> 
> ...


I couldn't tell what happened in the first one because the guy walked in the way.  Not sure if his foot was planted wrong or if it turned that way because of the break.  The only thing I know for sure is that I rather be punched in the face lol.

Second Video and Third Video looks the same.
It appears that instead of sitting into the stance they are trying to escape.  The third video shows the foot slipping which is similar to what happened in the second video, which gives me the impression that they are trying to pull away vs willingly receiving the technique by moving into it. Not sure if I'm explaining it clearly, but in my experience, there are some techniques that are better to go with the flow than trying to escape it. Sometimes it's the attempt to immediately escape that gets the person into trouble.  Like everything else, escape requires good timing and the best time to escape is not always at the beginning of a technique.  Sometimes you have to just brace for that "storm" and accept that you have been caught off guard, then try to escape after the initial impact if things slow down from there.  



Hanzou said:


> So you think someone could easily avoid this type of break if they've never trained how to counter it?


*Definitely YES*.  Avoiding the break would be easier than escaping because the breaking risk is a structure issue and not a skilled issue.  Structure is basic 101 and it's the thing that people learn on day one of training.  The problem is that most people forget those day one basics, or don't train those day one basics. 

Unfortunately beginner basics skills are often ignored after a person reaches more advanced skilled levels.  This is true in a lot of sports.  Where professionals screw up on the most basic fundamentals of their sport.  For me basics are just as important as the advanced stuff. I guess I'm different because much of what I like to do is to break the structure of my opponent, and much of that is just basic beginner stuff, with advanced understanding of "why we stand a certain way."   If my leg is broken then I have no chance.

Keep in mind that I'm the instructor that used to tell students and potential students to kick me directly in the knee head on, to demonstrate the value of a bent knee and how important stances are.  As a matter of fact. I've actually avoided a knee break when training with a teenage student during sparring.  I was training a female student and explaining structure.  I attacked the structure of her stance and she fell down.  Because her ego was hurt, she started kicking at my legs and one of her kicks landed on my knee. The only thing that prevented her from breaking my leg was my solid stance.  I scolded her and told her that her actions weren't acceptable and gave her a big lecture about how it's her responsibility to keep her training partner's safety in mind. Had she done the same action to another student, then their leg would have been broken.  



Hanzou said:


> Keep in mind, there's only three ways this can go: Into a Bjj exponent's guard, you somehow catching the Bjjer and being able to slam them, or if you're standing wrong when its pulled your leg snaps in multiple places.


My brain doesn't work like this. For example:

"Somehow catching the BJJer and being able to slam them."  This isn't my first thought.  My first thought is to secure my stance.  I can't do anything with a weak stance including slam them.  So my first thought is to secure my stance.  If I'm unable to secure my stance or if it's going to be too much work to fight for, then my second thought is to give up my stance and go with the flow. 

Example of going with the flow can be seen at 0: 27 play it in slow motion.  You can see my opponent is in a bad position, when his legs almost goes straight, instead of fighting it he bends his knees and goes with it.  At  0:38.  Here I go with the flow, but my opponent also goes with the flow.  I go with the flow by giving up on trying to regain my stance.  I make my opponent carry my entire weight. My opponent goes with the flow as he can no longer safely support my weight.  I lift his leg when I role to in an attempt to avoid any type of mount.  Not that he would have done that, but it's how I train. I try not to leave stuff out just because I think someone isn't going to do it. 





Both situations that I pointed out were my first time doing those techniques and I had no previous training to do those specific techniques.  The only thing I had was an understanding of the body mechanics, for rolling someone and for weakening a takedown.




Hanzou said:


> if you're standing wrong when its pulled your leg snaps in multiple places.


  This is why I stated that my first thought is to secure my stance. This actually happens before someone jumps the guard.  It's an on going effort to always be in a good stance.


This video looks like what some of the others were trying to do and you can see the danger that it puts the knee in.


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 24, 2018)

Pulling guard in a real fight with real strikes seems pretty risky, imo, unless you train regularly against strikes from an opponent on top in your guard. It only takes one shot if they are able to posture up. I just feel like there are better options. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Also slamming is legal in MMA and a few fighters have still been able to pull off jumping guard pulls.


A few people have smoked METH and have recovered, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be in group that recovers from it.   In other words.  I can't compare my skill sets with what a professional fighter does in MMA.  While there are some people who have been able to pull off jumping guard.  There are also some who haven't.  





For me.  The question is "How costly do I want my mistakes to be?"  and like I said I make mistakes so I can't afford to make big mistakes.  If Jumping the Guard works for you then by all means, do what works.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Also slamming is legal in MMA and a few fighters have still been able to pull off jumping guard pulls.



You would want to know what is on the floor when you did it as you are jumping backwards and then letting the other guy direct your decent. All of this to let the other guy be on top of you. At which point you are counting on that guy on top not really knowing enough jujitsu to stall and bang you in the head.

In self defence you can get away with a few chances and assumptions but you are putting a lot of risks on top of risks with a jump guard.

Oh and if your mobile phone is in your back pocket you will probably need a new one at the end of this,


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your opponent's body weight will land on top of you. What if he drops his elbow joint or knee joint on your head, neck, chest, kidney area, belly, groin? A 180 lb average guy's weight on his elbow joint, or knee joint can cause a lot of damage. When injury happen, who's fault will the judge give?
> 
> 1. He dropped his elbow on my neck on purpose.
> 2. He pulled me down, I lose balance, I just tried to maintain balance. It was a pure accident.
> ...



Eh, the entire weight won't fall on top of you, only the upper half of the body. The lower half will be cut off past your hips. Also your legs are wrapped around at least the waist area (some variations go up to the armpit of your target), which also blunts the force of their weight.  It would be quite a feat for someone to bring an elbow to your throat. When I've done Jump guard, their head lands around my chest area, with their elbows landing on either side of my torso.

 However, I will freely admit that I've never done jump guard with striking.


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> A few people have smoked METH and have recovered, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be in group that recovers from it.   In other words.  I can't compare my skill sets with what a professional fighter does in MMA.  While there are some people who have been able to pull off jumping guard.  There are also some who haven't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do this to prevent the slam:


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> Pulling guard in a real fight with real strikes seems pretty risky, imo, unless you train regularly against strikes from an opponent on top in your guard. It only takes one shot if they are able to posture up. I just feel like there are better options.



True point. You have to be very competent in the guard to get anything out of that takedown (unless you snap their leg on the way down).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> It would be quite a feat for someone to bring an elbow to your throat.


In jacket wrestling, if you have a cross lapel grip (my favor grip but may be illegal in Judo), to land your forearm on your opponent's throat is almost by default. the higher your grip is, the closer your forearm is near your opponent's throat.







It's not pleasant when your opponent does this on you when you are on the ground.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 24, 2018)

[


Hanzou said:


> Do this to prevent the slam:


I'm not sure what to say about that.  It creates an improper lift which is what a person wants.  On the defensive side, it still puts the knees at risks.  The moment I see the jump and feel the legs is the exact same moment I want to get my feet into a horse stance.  Like Drop Bear hinted to.  I want to be in control of your decent vs allow you to randomly slam into my body and I can't do that from a weak stance.  

The reason I can't say anything about it is because I don't know what happens next after getting into a horse stance.  The only things I know at that point are:

that it reduces the risk of my knees folding backwards
that I now have a good structure to stand if I need to. Even if my waist is bending slightly forward, I would be lifting with my legs vs trying to lift with my back. 

that I may be in a good position to stomp on your face (at this point your body will help me maintain balance on one leg by using your body as my support.
By me going lower in my stance, it may interfere with the "next move" that you have planned.  If I can get that delay then I may be able to escape or counter with something.    
If I were going to make an attempt to stomp on your face then it would be at 0:08,  I'm not staying it would work, it just that I would be in a position to do it with a good stance.  The stance that the demo person is in, is not a good stance.  Had the demo person re-positioned his legs at 0:08 and did a low squat then his opponent would not be directly under him because there would be no room for to get under.  But the demo guy in black would have had to have a wider stance, and go with the flow vs fighting it.  People ask what low horse stances are for.  This would be one of those occasions.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 24, 2018)

By the way I would need a BJJ guy in order to test my face stomp theory.  I would have to blindside him with it because if I let him know, then he'll either be prepared to defend against it.  I wouldn't actually stomp on his face.  I just need to be able to get it a position that would either allow me to stomp or stand on his face.  Being that I haven't tried the face stomp, at this point it's a theory.  The rest however, I'm sure of.  

The other thing we have to be mindful of is not to mix.  Self-defense with Sports.   We have already gone back and forth in context of that.  In either self-defense or sports, my goal would be the same.  Establish a good stance or give it up and go with the flow.  This is something that I've learned from doing joint locks where, fighting the lock can cause more damage than going with the flow and countering the lock.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> By the way I would need a BJJ guy in order to test my face stomp theory.  I would have to blindside him with it because if I let him know, then he'll either be prepared to defend against it.  I wouldn't actually stomp on his face.  I just need to be able to get it a position that would either allow me to stomp or stand on his face.  Being that I haven't tried the face stomp, at this point it's a theory.  The rest however, I'm sure of.
> 
> The other thing we have to be mindful of is not to mix.  Self-defense with Sports.   We have already gone back and forth in context of that.  In either self-defense or sports, my goal would be the same.  Establish a good stance or give it up and go with the flow.  This is something that I've learned from doing joint locks where, fighting the lock can cause more damage than going with the flow and countering the lock.



There is no sport or self defence distinction though.  There is really only specific distinctions. 

So you need to find a specific difference.

Eg. A mat will probably make a slam defence to a jump guard a bit less effective than a gutter. That isn't really street or sport. It is just two different environments p.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Do this to prevent the slam:



His left hand is panel beating your head though. So it becomes an arms race to defend the slam and make the sweep before he makes the slam or nailed you in the head.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2018)

Otherwise it used to be the go back in the day because I could bash a guy while it looked like he was winning.

But people know what guard is these days.

There are probably reasons I would do it. But I wouldn't advise it. 

My view on self defense is to stay conservative.


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In jacket wrestling, if you have a cross lapel grip (my favor grip but may be illegal in Judo), to land your forearm on your opponent's throat is almost by default. the higher your grip is, the closer your forearm is near your opponent's throat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, in MMA where that is legal, I have never seen that happen when someone attempts a Jump Guard. At most, either the jumper gets slammed onto the canvas, or the takedown misses completely. When it is successful, the opponent's arms are no where near the throat. If you have some examples of this feel free to post them. Maybe I missed an attempt that led to what you're describing?


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> [
> I'm not sure what to say about that.  It creates an improper lift which is what a person wants.  On the defensive side, it still puts the knees at risks.  The moment I see the jump and feel the legs is the exact same moment I want to get my feet into a horse stance.  Like Drop Bear hinted to.  I want to be in control of your decent vs allow you to randomly slam into my body and I can't do that from a weak stance.
> 
> The reason I can't say anything about it is because I don't know what happens next after getting into a horse stance.  The only things I know at that point are:
> ...



Eh, I wouldn't attempt to lift your leg with that much weight on your body. You have a high chance of falling the wrong way and injuring yourself. Also lifting your leg is exactly what the jumpee wants you to do.

This is the same principle as the waiter sweep:





Pretty much a universal counter to guard slams. His is a bit better than the other example, because he actually scoops the leg while pushing back with his legs. However, it really doesn't take much to make someone fall via the sweep.


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> His left hand is panel beating your head though. So it becomes an arms race to defend the slam and make the sweep before he makes the slam or nailed you in the head.



I'll take a few face shot attempts over getting slammed into the concrete tyvm. Especially if it has the potential to lead me into the mount.


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

Here's Firas Zahabi's Jumping Web Guard. Pretty interesting variation IMO.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There is no sport or self defence distinction though.  There is really only specific distinctions.
> 
> So you need to find a specific difference.
> 
> Eg. A mat will probably make a slam defence to a jump guard a bit less effective than a gutter. That isn't really street or sport. It is just two different environments p.


There's always a difference sports takes out options that otherwise would be used.  which is why those slams are illegal is sports BJJ.  In terms of MMA in cotext to the discussion there would be less of a distinction


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Eh, I wouldn't attempt to lift your leg with that much weight on your body. You have a high chance of falling the wrong way and injuring yourself. Also lifting your leg is exactly what the jumpee wants you to do.
> 
> This is the same principle as the waiter sweep:
> 
> ...


I can use your body to help me support the weight.  When people try to take me down it looks like I have good footwork, but a lot of it is just me using my opponent to help support my weight and keep my balance.   If your body is on the floor then I would attempt to use your body as a crutch. Doing this would allow me avoid carrying your weight.  This would be critical if I were to try and support your weight.  The higher up I am the more of your weight I'll have to support.

The video that you showed highlights this.  I don't  want to be in a horse stance that high.  I want to take away leverage so I'm not carrying all of my oponents weight.  The less weight I'm carrying the more difficult it should be for my opponent to pull me forward and down.  From what I can tell in the videos is that there is some roll space involved where the person is trying to get underneath.  My theory brings to question does getting into a low stance benefit the defense or harm/weaken it?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2018)

I'm not generally in favor of pulling guard in a self-defense situation, but I can imagine some theoretical situations where it might be a good idea.

_Jumping_ guard? Hell, no. If someone is a good enough grappler that I can't take them down, they are good enough to slam me and give me a concussion or worse. It's already a high-risk move in a MMA context and they have some padding on the floor. I have no desire to get slammed on concrete (or on something hard and pointy like a fire hydrant).


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 24, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not generally in favor of pulling guard in a self-defense situation, but I can imagine some theoretical situations where it might be a good idea.
> 
> _Jumping_ guard? Hell, no. If someone is a good enough grappler that I can't take them down, they are good enough to slam me and give me a concussion or worse. It's already a high-risk move in a MMA context and they have some padding on the floor. I have no desire to get slammed on concrete (or on something hard and pointy like a fire hydrant).


  The way their heads bounce off the mat, it would easily be a fractured skull.  Biologically most of the weak spots on a human are on the backside of the body or  facing towards the center of the body.  

If I was going to be slammed on the concrete, I rather not head fist or back first.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your opponent's body weight will land on top of you. What if he drops his elbow joint or knee joint on your head, neck, chest, kidney area, belly, groin? A 180 lb average guy's weight on his elbow joint, or knee joint can cause a lot of damage. When injury happen, who's fault will the judge give?
> 
> 1. He dropped his elbow on my neck on purpose.
> 2. He pulled me down, I lose balance, I just tried to maintain balance. It was a pure accident.
> ...


If your opponent jumps guard properly, dropping your knee on them isn’t possible. The position is all wrong.

Dropping your elbow on them may be possible, depending on your opponent’s grips, but it usually isn’t in position for a devastating strike.

The real danger is just slamming their body full power into the ground, especially if you can aim for a hard surface.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Do this to prevent the slam:


That move (the waiter sweep) is a good one if your opponent stands in your guard. It doesn’t prevent the slam if your opponent drops the moment you jump guard. (Or if they grip your collar to hold your torso up long enough while they turn and find something especially hard and pointy to slam you on.)


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Here's Firas Zahabi's Jumping Web Guard. Pretty interesting variation IMO.


If you were going to jump guard, Firas’s approach has the advantage of loading the opponent’s body in an unbalanced fashion which makes it hard for them to control your landing. Still not something I would want to do off the mats though. Look at where he lands - on the back of his shoulders and neck. Not the best idea on a hard surface.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I'll take a few face shot attempts over getting slammed into the concrete tyvm. Especially if it has the potential to lead me into the mount.



I think I would try a stand up and dodge the whole issue.


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you were going to jump guard, Firas’s approach has the advantage of loading the opponent’s body in an unbalanced fashion which makes it hard for them to control your landing. Still not something I would want to do off the mats though. Look at where he lands - on the back of his shoulders and neck. Not the best idea on a hard surface.



Firas has some other ones in the first video that I found pretty interesting where he doesn't end up rolling on his head and shoulders. They seem rather useful for bringing someone larger to the ground. Reminded me of a spider monkey honestly, but it was still pretty cool stuff.


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I think I would try a stand up and dodge the whole issue.



Stand up after a failed jump guard, or stand up while someone is attempting the sweep?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> When it is successful, the opponent's arms are no where near the throat. If you have some examples of this feel free to post them. Maybe I missed an attempt that led to what you're describing?


What if your opponent's hand is already near your throat?


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if your opponent's hand is already near your throat?



You're jumping and wrapping your legs around their waist. Even if they grip near your throat, the grip isn't going to be on same level after the jump, and you're probably also going to try a different grip to control the takedown.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If your opponent jumps guard properly, dropping your knee on them isn’t possible. The position is all wrong.


If you wait until your opponent's legs wraps around your waist, it may be too late. But you and I both know that all wrestling counters may only work "before it almost happens but it hasn't 100% happened yet". Before your opponent's legs leaves the ground and wraps around your body, there can be just 1/4 second window.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You're jumping and wrapping your legs around their waist. Even if they grip near your throat, the grip isn't going to be on same level after the jump, and you're probably also going to try a different grip to control the takedown.


What if when you jump up, at the same time, your opponent drops down. There will be that 1/4 second window.

When you have grips on your opponent, your opponent's intention can be sensed through your grip. When he tries to jump, his upper body will lean back.


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if when you jump up, at the same time, your opponent drops down. There will be that 1/4 second window.
> 
> When you have grips on your opponent, your opponent's intention can be sensed through your grip. When he tries to jump, his upper body will lean back.



There is a Jumping guard counter where you pull down on the gi as the person jumps to stuff it, but I'm not sure how well it works in no-gi.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Stand up after a failed jump guard, or stand up while someone is attempting the sweep?



Stand up after the jump guard.


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## FriedRice (Oct 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Considering that like the scissor takedown, the jump guard can potentially break the leg of your assailant;
> 
> (warning: graphic stuff)
> 
> ...



I screamed at the 2nd video. Didn't learn my lesson and screamed even worse during the 3rd.

Here are the problems though:

1.  Tourneys, they can't slam or be DQ'ed. So upon feeling a jumping guard, they have to brace and let you down slowly......and the Jumper gets full guard while the Jumpee spent a lot of energy letting him down. Add in the surprise effect + force + leg placement not being optimal = rare, but possible, SNAP.

2.  In the street, if I feel the jump guard, I would immediately slam forward and thrusting the guy into the cement as hard as I can. I may pick him up and do it again if he's much lighter than me and still has his guard locked on.

3.  In the street, most people will be untrained, so you shouldn't have to jump guard....even though, breaking their leg like this probably has a higher probability due to them being untrained. I wouldn't jump guard though...even if I absolutely must use my BJJ, I would prob. do a double with air time to slam them hard into the concrete....then get up quickly for a few soccer kicks or head stomps.... then do the "situational tactical awareness"...."scanning the perimeter" like a "tactically trained hawk"   <--- The SD boyz know what I'm talking about


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## Hanzou (Nov 20, 2018)

I've been checking out Kron Gracie's MMA guard pulls, and they're pretty impressive. Obviously if you're going to use them in a self defense situation, your guard better be top shelf. That said, I could imagine a Guard pull rolling very quickly into a sweep or submission.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 20, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I've been checking out Kron Gracie's MMA guard pulls, and they're pretty impressive. Obviously if you're going to use them in a self defense situation, your guard better be top shelf. That said, I could imagine a Guard pull rolling very quickly into a sweep or submission.


Do you think the guard pulling will work in no jacket environment? Where will you grab on? When you use guard pulling, both of your opponent's hands are free. IMO, to assume that your opponent's hands won't do anything on you is not realistic.


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## Hanzou (Nov 20, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think the guard pulling will work in no jacket environment? Where will you grab on? When you use guard pulling, both of your opponent's hands are free. IMO, to assume that your opponent's hands won't do anything on you is not realistic.



Kron does it via the boxer clench, like many classic Bjj takedowns.


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## dunc (Nov 21, 2018)

You do see jumping guard in old Japanese Jujutsu schools where the context is more self defence oriented & you're wearing a jacket

However, it's done differently from how we see it in BJJ. Rather than jumping up in order to pull your opponent down you:
- Jump up to attack with a leg squeeze (do jime in judo) and strike to the face pretty much simultaneously
- Immediately drop you upper body to facilitate a sweep
- Finish with an ankle lock and a kick to disentangle quickly

Whilst I think that this approach is better for the "street" & the surprise factor of this attack is huge, I'm with the others on this thread in that it's probably not a preferred stratagem in a self defence situation


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 21, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Considering that like the scissor takedown, the jump guard can potentially break the leg of your assailant;
> 
> (warning: graphic stuff)
> 
> ...


I'd think it's a good answer for anyone with a strong guard game. Let me amend that, if your guard game is better (for your situation) than your standing game. As you say, it needs the presumption of a single opponent, but that's just part of the situation.

I hate the concept of jumping guard, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it if you're good at it and the positions you're likely to progress to. I'd have to ask (and you probably know): what are the risks if jumping guard goes wrong? Failure mode (what happens if it doesn't work - how deep a hole have I dug for myself) is part of how I look at all MA techniques.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 21, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well, if its an effective takedown, why should it not be used?


That was exactly my thought. I see it - as you stated in your OP - a lot like a scissor takedown. If we ignore the guard part, it's a usable takedown. I don't really see it as conceptually different from drop seoi nage or the scissor takedown, both of which depend in part on "dragging them down" with your weight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 21, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Interesting analysis.
> 
> Here's some more (again, graphic video):
> 
> ...


I think the specific stance training in some arts (like Jow Ga) is likely to make the chance of a break very slim, without them knowing anything about a jump guard. If they also manage to react to the jump guard (which isn't all that odd a concept - many of us had someone do a sloppy version in a fight as a kid), that stance probably negates the takedown. That's a deduction, so based only on what I see in my head, rather than anything I've actually seen.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 21, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Also slamming is legal in MMA and a few fighters have still been able to pull off jumping guard pulls.


I think jumping guard is a specific skill. If you know how to recognize the openings, it's a useful tool. I think those who used it in MMA probably mostly either were REALLY good at recognizing openings, or saw consistent openings in pre-fight analysis.


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## Hanzou (Nov 21, 2018)

dunc said:


> You do see jumping guard in old Japanese Jujutsu schools where the context is more self defence oriented & you're wearing a jacket
> 
> However, it's done differently from how we see it in BJJ. Rather than jumping up in order to pull your opponent down you:
> - Jump up to attack with a leg squeeze (do jime in judo) and strike to the face pretty much simultaneously
> ...



I definitely agree that it isn't a preferred stratagem. Thanks for the historical context. That is very interesting. What's your view on jumping submissions like Jumping Triangle or Jumping Armbar?


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## Hanzou (Nov 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'd think it's a good answer for anyone with a strong guard game. Let me amend that, if your guard game is better (for your situation) than your standing game. As you say, it needs the presumption of a single opponent, but that's just part of the situation.
> 
> I hate the concept of jumping guard, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it if you're good at it and the positions you're likely to progress to. I'd have to ask (and you probably know): what are the risks if jumping guard goes wrong? Failure mode (what happens if it doesn't work - how deep a hole have I dug for myself) is part of how I look at all MA techniques.



You'd better disengage and fall on your butt and enter into an open guard in order to sweep as quickly as possible. Conversely you could do a double ankle sweep depending on how you fall.

If you get slammed on a very hard surface, you're pretty screwed.


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## dunc (Nov 21, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I definitely agree that it isn't a preferred stratagem. Thanks for the historical context. That is very interesting. What's your view on jumping submissions like Jumping Triangle or Jumping Armbar?



I haven't seen either of those in the older traditional jujutsu schools. So most likely they are more modern inventions

Similar to jumping guard they are really surprising attacks that pretty much end the fight if you pull them off. So whilst the risk may be quite high if you feel that the circumstances are good then maybe...

Generally I feel that the traditional arm bar leaves your head quite exposed to being used as a football - so probably the methods that avoid having your head on the floor are better for self defence
Triangles are a bit more protected from this I think

The issue with flying triangles is that you don't have the option to disrupt the body slam by striking his face backwards (as per the more traditional approach to jumping guard) so the risk of getting slammed if your opponent has good structure is probably too high to warrant it. This is less of an issue with flying arm bars I think


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## Christopher Adamchek (Nov 21, 2018)

Ive used this effectively (only on mats), almost always against a larger opponent when my other throw countering techniques arent working quite well because they are so much larger than me and i know they they can just muscle me down.  I would try avoiding this in real life, preferentially on softer surfaces, but if i know im going down i might chance it to take control of the situation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think jumping guard is a specific skill. If you know how to recognize the openings, it's a useful tool.


The concept is to

- glue yourself on your opponent's body, and
- take advantage on your own body weight.

Chinese wrestling use this concept too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The concept is to
> 
> - glue yourself on your opponent's body, and
> - take advantage on your own body weight.
> ...


I think most grappling arts have something that uses those same principles. Jumping guard does have an additional element of specifically setting up a guard position at the same time.


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