# How to escape a wrist lock



## futsaowingchun (Oct 28, 2021)

in this video I show how to use not a technique but body mechanics to fling your opponent away using only a little force.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2021)

What if your opponent won't let go his grips?

Also to break apart a wrist lock is one thing. To take advantage on it is something else. How to take advantage on it?

In another thread, someone asked, "What's your finish move?"


----------



## drop bear (Oct 28, 2021)

I will have to show the super simple one I learned in a seminar recently.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2021)

When your opponent grabs you, his tiger mouth is facing toward you, this will put him in disadvantage position. All you need to do is to rotate your right hand clockwise, rotate your left hand counter-clockwise. Since your both hands are inside and on top of his arms, you will have advantage. Also since you only need to deal with his thumb, it won't take you too much effort.

Your opponent's correct wrist grab should be to have his tiger mouth facing to himself.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I will have to show the super simple one I learned in a seminar recently.


Is it similar to this?


----------



## futsaowingchun (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if your opponent won't let go his grips?
> 
> Also to break apart a wrist lock is one thing. To take advantage on it is something else. How to take advantage on it?
> 
> In another thread, someone asked, "What's your finish move?"


In oder to fling him away he must hold on if he let's go then it won't work.. if he let's go the I simply do something else..


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 29, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> in this video I show how to use not a technique but body mechanics to fling your opponent away using only a little force.



Just hit the mo-fo. Just sayin'...


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 29, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Is it similar to this?


Can we be friends?

I'm in a sharing mood.


----------



## futsaowingchun (Oct 29, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Just hit the mo-fo. Just sayin'...


Yes I know you can do that..its not about that


----------



## futsaowingchun (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When your opponent grabs you, his tiger mouth is facing toward you, this will put him in disadvantage position. All you need to do is to rotate your right hand clockwise, rotate your left hand counter-clockwise. Since your both hands are inside and on top of his arms, you will have advantage. Also since you only need to deal with his thumb, it won't take you too much effort.
> 
> Your opponent's correct wrist grab should be to have his tiger mouth facing to himself.
> 
> View attachment 27492


Yes you can do that its simple but the video about not so much the wrist grab but to use it to use a different skill set which is using your body internally instead of a simple hand techniques


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 29, 2021)

Punch the person holding you directly in the face with your free hand.  Hard.


----------



## futsaowingchun (Oct 29, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Punch the person holding you directly in the face with your free hand.  Hard.


Yeah that will work to.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> in this video I show how to use not a technique but body mechanics to fling your opponent away using only a little force.


That assumes they are grabbing and essentially pushing away. I’m having trouble coming up with many situations where that would be the case. Can you help me understand this?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> which is using your body internally instead of a simple hand techniques


What do you intend to achieve? In other words, what's your finish move?

You push your opponent away, he will come back. How many times do you want to repeat the same process?

In another forum, people try to put anti-Taiji label on me because I asked the same question. 

I strongly believe one should keep his friend close but enemy closer.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you intend to achieve? In other words, what's your finish move?
> 
> You push your opponent away, he will come back. How many times do you want to repeat the same process?


Just my observation, but you seem to have a habit of saying "will" when "might" is probably a better choice.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Just my observation, but you seem to have a habit of saying "will" when "might" is probably a better choice.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to use "might"  more often.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you intend to achieve? In other words, what's your finish move?
> 
> You push your opponent away, he will come back. How many times do you want to repeat the same process?
> 
> ...


I can see a use for getting someone moving backwards: much easier to overwhelm with a flurry if they are in their heels.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to use "might"  more often.


In some cases, even “can” makes the point. Either (in the right situation) might be what you mean.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> In some cases, even “can” makes the point. Either (in the right situation) might be what you mean.


Thanks! I'll try to use might, can more than will.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Punch the person holding you directly in the face with your free hand.  Hard.


We have heard this comment many times in the forum. If your opponent grab on your wrist, you use the other free hand to punch on his face.

What if your opponent use right hand to grab on your right wrist, and pull your right arm to your left to cause your body to rotate to your left? Your left punch will require your body to rotate to your right. But your opponent's pulling will make your body to rotate to the opposite direction. Of course you can borrow your opponent's pulling, and counter with a left spin back fist. But you have to expose your back to your opponent.

IMO, if your opponent cannot achieve this, he should not grab on your wrist in the first place.


----------



## futsaowingchun (Oct 29, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you intend to achieve? In other words, what's your finish move?
> 
> You push your opponent away, he will come back. How many times do you want to repeat the same process?
> 
> ...


I can finish him by fling him into the wall,into tree,a car,out of a window,into another person using the enviroment  or to create and escapre route.. then game is up to you but can you do it?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We have heard this comment many times in the forum. If your opponent grab on your wrist, you use the other free hand to punch on his face.
> 
> What if your opponent use right hand to grab on your right wrist, and pull your right arm to your left to cause your body to rotate to your left? Your left punch will require your body to rotate to your right. But your opponent's pulling will make your body to rotate to the opposite direction. Of course you can borrow your opponent's pulling, and counter with a left spin back fist. But you have to expose your back to your opponent.
> 
> IMO, if your opponent cannot achieve this, he should not grab on your wrist in the first place.


Negative. If someone grabs your wrist and pulls, you go into that motion, rushing towards them immediately. That way you do not rotate your punching arm away from them. Your second step into them should place your punching arm forward and in great position to blast them. There cannot be a tug of war over the grabbed arm. No one who grabs and pulls expects anything except resistance. Give them the opposite.


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 30, 2021)

Everyone talks of moving this way and that way...Tai sabaki in a Dojo is one thing but some people are just physically strong and have a good grip.
Try all the sabaki on a construction worker with real World strength in his hands and forearms. 
Not so easy.


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Everyone talks of moving this way and that way...Tai sabaki in a Dojo is one thing but some people are just physically strong and have a good grip.
> Try all the sabaki on a construction worker with real World strength in his hands and forearms.
> Not so easy.



Ok...guess I'll be the one to ask: what is tai sabaki???


----------



## caped crusader (Oct 30, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Ok...guess I'll be the one to ask: what is tai sabaki???











						Tai sabaki - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Everyone talks of moving this way and that way...Tai sabaki in a Dojo is one thing but some people are just physically strong and have a good grip.
> Try all the sabaki on a construction worker with real World strength in his hands and forearms.
> Not so easy.


Agreed. Sometimes extra is required. Push forward into the guy. Stomp a foot. Head butt. People tend to grab with their strong hand. If they grab straight across and you're both righties, step in and smash his face. Keep it going, run right over the top of him. People who grab expect you to pull back. Don't. Make a kiss noise. Scream or spit in his face. Stomp your foot, make him look down. Throw that empi straight into his chest and sink it. Blow his jaw off with an uppercut. Whatever presents itself.

Also, don't stop to think. Act. Instantly. The more time he has, the worse it is for you.


----------



## geezer (Oct 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Everyone talks of moving this way and that way...Tai sabaki in a Dojo is one thing but some people are just physically strong and have a good grip.
> Try all the sabaki on a construction worker with real World strength in his hands and forearms.
> Not so easy.


OK, training in a Chinese martial art, I also had to look up "tai sabaki" - a _Japanese _term. For the other practitioner of non-Japanese arts, it seems to roughly translate to "outside shift" or _moving offline,_ and in arts like Aikido is used to "harmonize" rather than resist an opponent's force.

OK that kinda-sorta relates to the "WT" Wing Chun response to a hard grab and yank across center intending to turn you so that the free arm can't come into play as posited by John Wang in his post #20 above. We respond by _stepping forward and across with the pulling force_, stepping with _the leg on the same side_ as we are being pulled using "falling leaf step.

This:
1. Moves us closer (inside) and across (offline) and...
2. Relieves the pressure of the pull so that you are _not_ spun around and continue to face your opponent's center so you can hit them straight away with the free-hand.

Note: The timing, reflexes to accomplish this step require a good deal of practice, but when you do it right it is *not *negated by a strong grip and hard pull by a "construction worker with real-world strength". Heck those are precisely the people in your group that you want to train with!

BTW- a nod here to Bill Mattocks who, it seems to me, already said pretty much the same thing (from a karate perspective) above.


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 30, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Agreed. Sometimes extra is required. Push forward into the guy. Stomp a foot. Head butt. People tend to grab with their strong hand. If they grab straight across and you're both righties, step in and smash his face. Keep it going, run right over the top of him. People who grab expect you to pull back. Don't. Make a kiss noise. Scream or spit in his face. Stomp your foot, make him look down. Throw that empi straight into his chest and sink it. Blow his jaw off with an uppercut. Whatever presents itself.
> 
> Also, don't stop to think. Act. Instantly. The more time he has, the worse it is for you.



Yup. Get inside his OODA loop and F him up.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Everyone talks of moving this way and that way...Tai sabaki in a Dojo is one thing but some people are just physically strong and have a good grip.
> Try all the sabaki on a construction worker with real World strength in his hands and forearms.
> Not





wckf92 said:


> Yup. Get inside his OODA loop and F him up.


People who grab and hold tend to be drunk, bullies, or inexperienced fighters in my experience. First, they don't know what to do next. They want to run their mouths after grabbing you. They don't think it's a fight yet. 

Mistake. Grabbing me doesn't require explanation or discussion. Grab me and you get all I got, instantly, now. Full throttle "I'm going to end you," right up close and personal. I'm in their grill that second and they WILL let go when I nukite their eyeballs 2 knuckles deep. 

I don't want to chit chat. I want that hand off me. Now.


----------



## geezer (Oct 30, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Also, don't stop to think. Act. Instantly.


Had to quote that again. That's the essence of it.


----------



## geezer (Oct 30, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> People who grab and hold tend to be drunk, bullies, or inexperienced fighters in my experience....
> 
> I don't want to chit chat. I want that hand off me. Now.


So if it's your drunk uncle Bob, You can respond the same way, but just strike his _wrist_, hard ....instead of punching him in the jaw. Still works and you haven't messed up your family BBQ.

BTW in WC/WT that's called "tut sau" or "freeing hand".


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Push forward into the guy.


You may need at least a 90 degree angle. 

If A pulls B toward the northwest direction, B will need to move toward the northeast direction. In other words, B has to cut in front of A. This will require that B has to respond very fast. The moment that B's body starts to spin, it's too late.


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may need at least a 90 degree angle.
> 
> If A pulls B toward the northwest direction, B will need to move toward the northeast direction. In other words, B has to cut in front of A. This will require that B has to respond very fast. The moment that B's body starts to spin, it's too late.



You're forgetting that wing chun (as do most martial arts) has this nifty thing called footwork.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2021)

geezer said:


> So if it's your drunk uncle Bob, You can respond the same way, but just strike his _wrist_, hard ....instead of punching him in the jaw. Still works and you haven't messed up your family BBQ.
> 
> BTW in WC/WT that's called "tut sau" or "freeing hand".


My friends and relatives know better. But yeah, I get it.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may need at least a 90 degree angle.
> 
> If A pulls B toward the northwest direction, B will need to move toward the northeast direction. In other words, B has to cut in front of A. This will require that B has to respond very fast. The moment that B's body starts to spin, it's too late.


Too much math. Hulk smash.


----------



## geezer (Oct 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may need at least a 90 degree angle.
> 
> If A pulls B toward the northwest direction, B will need to move toward the northeast direction. In other words, B has to cut in front of A. This will require supposethat B has to respond very fast. The moment that B's body starts to spin, it's too late.


Not exactly. We don't move at 90° to the direction we are being pulled. We go _with _the pull, but "cut the corner" moving towards our opponent.

So if he is to our N. and he pulls across to the W, we step NW. ...moving _with_ the pull and _forwards_ towards our opponent.



Or look at it this way: A grabs your left hand and pulls across to his left (your right) to rotate you so he can punch you with his right.

The trick is to take a deep step diagonally forward and across with your right foot (the same side as you are bing pulled) so _you do not rotate or cross your feet._

Basically, you relax, allowing your arm to extend and use the force of his pull to power your step --like being hauled by a rope. And you have to take a _big_ step, deeply bending your front knee to absorb a forceful pull ...putting you into a deep front stance (looking like a karateka's _zenkutsu dachi_).

In WT we call this "falling leaf step," and the atypical front-weighted stance is a "reverse stance" since it is opposite to our normal back-weighted stance. From this position you punch, pivoting on your feet back to face your opponent's center, recovering your normal WT/WC back weighted position as you strike.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2021)

I forgot one of my favorite responses. Free hand slap to the ear of the person grabbing you. Use your body as the whip, his hold as the fulcrum you pivot on. He will let go when you pop that eardrum with your palm. Then break his everything.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 30, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I forgot one of my favorite responses. Free hand slap to the ear of the person grabbing you. Use your body as the whip, his hold as the fulcrum you pivot on. He will let go when you pop that eardrum with your palm. Then break his everything.


You probably aren't going to actually pop the eardrum. Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt though, which is what really matters at that point.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You probably aren't going to actually pop the eardrum. Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt though, which is what really matters at that point.


A boy can dream.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2021)

geezer said:


> So if he is to our N. and he pulls across to the W, we step NW. ...moving _with_ the pull and _forwards_ towards our opponent.


Please help me to understand this:

- A stands on B's N.
- Both have right sides forward.
- A uses right arm to pull B's right arm to the W.
- B moves toward NW.

Since A is at N, A will be exactly on B's blind sport (side door), how can B's left hand be able to punch A? What have I missed here?

Most of the time, when A pulls B, A will borrow the counter force to move A to the NE. So when B moves to NW while A is at NW, that will be exactly 90 degree different.

In the following clip, when A pulls B, B's back hand will have difficulty to punch A (because the angle).

Again, what have I missed here?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That assumes they are grabbing and essentially pushing away. I’m having trouble coming up with many situations where that would be the case. Can you help me understand this?


I can think of scenarios of when someone grabs your hands like that.  Usually it's only for a quick second. They do it to get arm control so they can position your arms as an entry.  So grabbing the arms isn't the end technique.  It's the entry technique.

The trouble is that I have to react to an entry technique before it's applied.  If I react to it after it's applied then my reaction will the wrong for the follow up.  Here's the pattern.

My Opponent: *Step 1:*  Entry - He grabs my arms.  *Step 2*: Moves to different technique
Me:  *Step 1*: He grabbed my arm  *Step 2*: I react to Step 1.

The problem is that by the time my opponent gets to Step 2:  I'm reacting to his Entry which is no longer there and as a result that technique won't work.  Kung Fu has a lot of techniques about what if someone grabs your arm.  What they don't say is none of that stuff works if they still aren't holding on.  However, the techniques speak to this reality because many techniques try to lock their opponent's grab so that their opponent can't let go in time.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Everyone talks of moving this way and that way...Tai sabaki in a Dojo is one thing but some people are just physically strong and have a good grip.
> Try all the sabaki on a construction worker with real World strength in his hands and forearms.
> Not so easy.


I've been grab by wrestlers before and my thoughts are always the same thing.  I'm not getting away if he grabs me.  This informs me that some techniques have to be done before the grip is locked.  I also learn that when they grab with purpose to control your arm, if they are successful then any technique that I have in mind to control them probably won't work.   I have to first stop their control or stop the entry.  I don't always get to choose what I have to use to stop the control.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can think of scenarios of when someone grabs your hands like that.  Usually it's only for a quick second.


I will say the grabbing time can be less than 1/4 second.

In the following clip, when A grabs on B, B won't be able to punch A with his free hand (because the angle).


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I will say the grabbing time can be less than 1/4 second.
> 
> In the following clip, when A grabs on B, B won't be able to punch A with his free hand (because the angle).
> 
> View attachment 27501


If a wrestler / grappler is holding me for longer than what is shown in your clip, then I'm probably at the beginning of a bad situation lol.


----------



## wckf92 (Oct 30, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Please help me to understand this:
> 
> - A stands on B's N.
> - Both have right sides forward.
> ...



Simple, the guy in black has no footwork. He doesn't understand WC methods. Look at his right foot, he simply leaves it there for the guy in white to take advantage of.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> Everyone talks of moving this way and that way...Tai sabaki in a Dojo is one thing but some people are just physically strong and have a good grip.
> Try all the sabaki on a construction worker with real World strength in his hands and forearms.
> Not so easy.


One of my favorite training partners was a mover. He was (and is) a few inches shorter than me, with hands about 25% broader with muscle - like hams, they were (and still are - saw him recently). Having someone like that to work with reveals some truths.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2021)

geezer said:


> OK, training in a Chinese martial art, I also had to look up "tai sabaki" - a _Japanese _term. For the other practitioner of non-Japanese arts, it seems to roughly translate to "outside shift" or _moving offline,_ and in arts like Aikido is used to "harmonize" rather than resist an opponent's force.
> 
> OK that kinda-sorta relates to the "WT" Wing Chun response to a hard grab and yank across center intending to turn you so that the free arm can't come into play as posited by John Wang in his post #20 above. We respond by _stepping forward and across with the pulling force_, stepping with _the leg on the same side_ as we are being pulled using "falling leaf step.
> 
> ...


I learned the term as an equivalent to “body movement”, as opposed to limb-only movement. Under that definition, the post that started this sub-thread is confusing to me. The point of tai sabaki in grappling is to use big (leg and trunk) muscles instead of just arms, especially against a stronger person. Not doing tai sabaki (again, as I learned the term) means limiting yourself to arm strength.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The point of tai sabaki in grappling is to use big (leg and trunk) muscles instead of just arms,


Agree! Here is an example that you use your whole body to drag (not only use your arms to drag).


----------



## geezer (Oct 31, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! Here is an example that you use your whole body to drag (not only use your arms to drag).


This clip is titled _"the Wang drag"...   _ ...er, that is unfortunate.

John, I know you speak English very well, but I do not believe it is your first language. If you learned English as an adult at UT, There may be certain idiomatic expressions commonly used in childhood that you missed. Just sayin'


----------



## geezer (Oct 31, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Please help me to understand this: what have I missed here?
> 
> View attachment 27500


In a word: Footwork.

First, let me say that an arm drag to get a leg pick as shown is a great technique, and I have used it on my WC students. So I'm not saying that won't work.

...but I am saying that it is practical to counter a sharp wrist pull by by using the force and stepping with the pulling movement.

The difference is _footwork ....and context._

Here are some points about _context:_

For one thing, in WC our upper body isn't bladed or turned aside. It's typically square to our opponent.

Secondly, in the scenario we were discussing, when _white_ pulls _black_ to his right (as above) his intent is to punch, so he won't be crouching and setting up a single-leg. That would lead to a different counter by _black_.

Now, regarding_ footwork:_

To borrow the force of the wrist pull, _black_ would have to:

1. Relax and allow his right arm to be pulled across to the left, stretching like a bungee cord.
2. Channel the pulling force to his feet  and relieve the stress by stepping deeply over and inward with his_ left_ foot.
3. _Use_ the force of white's pull to accelerate his body to his left while keeping his shoulders facing his opponent.
4. This allows _black_ to spring back facing _white_ and punch.

Note : In your videoclip, You, in white, are applying something very like this footwork in setting up your takedown! Imaging that, instead of resisting, black responded to your arm-drag by moving_ in the same way_.

BTW: I've never posted a video, but I really wish I had one to clarify. Sometimes words ...just fail me.


----------



## futsaowingchun (Oct 31, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if your opponent won't let go his grips?
> 
> Also to break apart a wrist lock is one thing. To take advantage on it is something else. How to take advantage on it?
> 
> In another thread, someone asked, "What's your finish move?"


"What's your finish move?"    Take out my gun and shoot him..lol


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2021)

geezer said:


> To borrow the force of the wrist pull, _black_ would have to:
> 
> 1. Relax and allow his right arm to be pulled across to the left, stretching like a bungee cord.
> 2. Channel the pulling force to his feet  and relieve the stress by stepping deeply over and inward with his_ left_ foot.
> ...


I believe you are talking

- A pulls B.
- B borrows A's pulling force,
- steps forward with left leg,
- spin toward right to face A (so B's left hand can punch A).

Since B "yielding" intention can be transferred through the arm grabbing (this is the main purpose of the arm grabbing), A can borrow B's body spinning, spin with B, and leady B into the emptiness.

Double "borrow force" has happen here.

- A pulls B.
- B borrows A's pulling force and spins.
- A borrows B's spinning force, and spin more than B really wants to.

I believe this is what we are talking about. Since A spins with B (by moving right leg behind left leg in a circle), B's left hand still cannot reach A.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2021)

futsaowingchun said:


> "What's your finish move?"    Take out my gun and shoot him..lol


Just try to understand your purpose why do you want to "fling your opponent away".


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I will say the grabbing time can be less than 1/4 second.
> 
> In the following clip, when A grabs on B, B won't be able to punch A with his free hand (because the angle).
> 
> View attachment 27501



You are giving up your back with a lot of these wrist release options.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just try to understand your purpose why do you want to "fling your opponent away".



If it worked at all like that original video it would be a useful trick. You just throw them over a gutter or something.


----------



## futsaowingchun (Nov 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That assumes they are grabbing and essentially pushing away. I’m having trouble coming up with many situations where that would be the case. Can you help me understand this?


How about a drunk In a bar.. I used to security..


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You are giving up your back with a lot of these wrist release options.


Don't understand your comment. Could you provide more detail?

Are you talking about this clip?


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Don't understand your comment. Could you provide more detail?



As you swing your arm side ways they can just go past the whole side of your body.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> As you swing your arm side ways they can just go past the whole side of your body.


Are you talking about this clip?


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 1, 2021)

anyway Guys n ´Gals  the bottom line is every situation is different so until it happens..who knows


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you talking about this clip?
> 
> View attachment 27510



Yep.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 1, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yep.


A's right hand supposes to punch on B's face. Just for demo, A punches besides B's head.


----------



## Buka (Nov 1, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Having someone like that to work with reveals some truths.


Yes, and makes for really long nights at the dojo.

Trained a guy who was a third generation stone mason. Needed a chain saw to break his grip.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 1, 2021)

I think the title of this thread can be misleading. There is no wrist lock in that video.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think the title of this thread can be misleading. There is no wrist lock in that video.


Yeah.

You gotta skip the  Title and read the content.
"I show how to use not a technique but body mechanics to fling your opponent away using only a little force."


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah.
> 
> You gotta skip the  Title and read the content.
> "I show how to use not a technique but body mechanics to fling your opponent away using only a little force."


My question is, "If you train how to push your opponent away, why don't you also train how to control his back leg when you push?"

1 point contact is push. 2 points contact in the opposite direction is throw. Will it be more useful to train how to throw than to train how to push?

Here is another example that when your opponent uses both hands to control your leading arm, you may have difficulty to punch him with your back hand.

Just by adding that simple back leg control, a push can become a throw.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My question is, "If you train how to push your opponent away, why don't you also train how to control his back leg when you push?"


Depends on the situation.  In a multiple attacker scenario you may not want to bring that person in especially if you are pushing that person away so you can deal with a new incoming threat.  If you are only looking at "Body mechanics" then there is no need to train the technique.   However if you want to set body mechanics to a purpose like "fling someone off me"  then I would need to train both the body mechanics and the technique for that purpose.  I can't train them separately.  Training them separately would be like training form but not application..

Training Form = Clean Body Mechanics   
Training Application = Actual Body Mechanics +technique

The OP was only looking at Body Mechanics.  There was no technique in which those mechanics could power, as a result, those body Mechanics may not be accurate to fighting or flinging an opponent off of you.

Foot hooks are awesome.  They are one of the few techniques I know where "less is more"  In terms of brute strength they don't require any. Energy that is used to use a successful foot hook is truly minimum.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1 point contact is push. 2 points contact in the opposite direction is throw. Will it be more useful to train how to throw than to train how to push?


Why does it have to be one or the other. There are times when creating space might be useful, so why not train to do both?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Why does it have to be one or the other. There are times when creating space might be useful, so why not train to do both?


Because if you know how to throw, you also know how to push. The other way around may not be true.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 3, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Because if you know how to throw, you also know how to push. The other way around may not be true.
> 
> View attachment 27520


That doesn't seem a counter to my suggestion that folks can train both. I don't think anything you've said here suggests that someone can't train the pushing away as a separate drill, and add in the structure control (foot trap, or whatever) that turns it into a throw.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 3, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That doesn't seem a counter to my suggestion that folks can train both. I don't think anything you've said here suggests that someone can't train the pushing away as a separate drill, and add in the structure control (foot trap, or whatever) that turns it into a throw.


The issue is in order to apply a throw, your arm and leg need to be coordinated together. In order to achieve the coordination, you can't train arm and leg separately.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The issue is in order to apply a throw, your arm and leg need to be coordinated together. In order to achieve the coordination, you can't train arm and leg separately.
> 
> View attachment 27521


Actually, you can. It's less efficient in some ways, but you can certainly train the push/pull (arm) portion separately. There are some advantages to this (to go with some of the disadvantages), as the basic push-pull principles can be used with multiple throws, so training them separately develops basic structure control for multiple techniques.

And it trains for when you're not using that leg - just using the arms to control to set up for something else (as when pushing away to make space).


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 4, 2021)

I honestly think arm bar type locks are more effective in a real situation than wrist locks which are very hard to apply. much harder to get out of too


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> I honestly think arm bar type locks are more effective in a real situation than wrist locks which are very hard to apply. much harder to get out of too


Standing arm bars aren't easy to maintain, and are fairly easy to get out of if you just move enough. IMO, in most cases all standing locks are transitional - they are best used to control/disrupt structure (or for pain compliance, if that happens to happen). To use most locks as restraint, you have to limit their ability to move, which is most easily done if they are no longer standing.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Standing arm bars aren't easy to maintain, and are fairly easy to get out of if you just move enough. IMO, in most cases all standing locks are transitional - they are best used to control/disrupt structure (or for pain compliance, if that happens to happen). To use most locks as restraint, you have to limit their ability to move, which is most easily done if they are no longer standing.


yeah better on the ground....true dat


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Standing arm bars aren't easy to maintain, and are fairly easy to get out of if you just move enough.


You may start arm bar when stand up. But you can end arm bar to put your opponent on the ground.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may start arm bar when stand up. But you can end arm bar to put your opponent on the ground.
> 
> View attachment 27524


yeah control a larger limb. a wrist is small and hard to get too.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 4, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> yeah control a larger limb. a wrist is small and hard to get too.


The problem is when you lock your opponent's wrist, his elbow is still free. All he needs to to is to raise his elbow to counter the wrist lock.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The problem is when you lock your opponent's wrist, his elbow is still free. All he needs to to is to raise his elbow to counter the wrist lock.


If you've actually locked the wrist properly, the elbow is not free - it's controlled by structure. Anything less is only a partial lock.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> yeah control a larger limb. a wrist is small and hard to get too.


Wrist locks are pretty situational. For instance, if someone manages to get their arm bent during an arm bar, there are at least 3 places where they pass through a wrist lock position (plus probably at least one shoulder lock position) while escaping.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 4, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Wrist locks are pretty situational. For instance, if someone manages to get their arm bent during an arm bar, there are at least 3 places where they pass through a wrist lock position (plus probably at least one shoulder lock position) while escaping.


😃


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The problem is when you lock your opponent's wrist, his elbow is still free. All he needs to to is to raise his elbow to counter the wrist lock.


If your wrist lock leaves the elbow free, you're doing it wrong...


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> If your wrist lock leaves the elbow free, you're doing it wrong...


Figure 4 locks are Solid. Elbow won't move.


----------



## caped crusader (Nov 4, 2021)

Bed time ...Goodnight everyone 😁


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> If your wrist lock leaves the elbow free, you're doing it wrong...


I don't know we are talking about the same wrist lock or not. I'm talking about this one.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know we are talking about the same wrist lock or not. I'm talking about this one.


Yeah. I don't think I'd ever be likely to do that. The leverage is all wrong.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 4, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Yeah. I don't think I'd ever be likely to do that. The leverage is all wrong.


The small circle wrist lock have existed in CMA for over thousands years.






https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1KW411Z7nn/


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The small circle wrist lock have existed in CMA for over thousands years.


Ok. But so what? There are still plenty of weapons left over from the bronze age. They certainly aren't anything I'd choose to use. As shown, it's not something I'd be likely to do. The leverage is all wrong.
[Edit] I'm not really good at describing these things. It's much easier to demonstrate. But that arm needs to be straightened out and the elbow attacked. Done properly, to my way of thinking, there will be pressure on the wrist, elbow, and shoulder.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know we are talking about the same wrist lock or not. I'm talking about this one.



Yeah. I attack the elbow to secure wrist locks. Because that loose elbow is used to escape or defend.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know we are talking about the same wrist lock or not. I'm talking about this one.


We have a similar lock (many arts do), but it’s only used properly when the arm is bent enough to break structure with it. Once the lock is applied, the arm should be unable to straighten without adding torque to the wrist.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2021)

3 steps to escape the wrist lock.

1. Your opponent uses downward pressure on your wrist, you raise your elbow.
2. Your opponent uses horizontal pressure on your wrist, you turn your body.
3. Your opponent uses pulling force on your wrist, you ...

What will you do at step 3 when your opponent pull you backward?

CMA 三把腕子 (3 steps wrist lock):



			https://i.postimg.cc/bvZv7vt1/3-wrist-lock.gif


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 3 steps to escape the wrist lock.
> 
> 1. Your opponent uses downward pressure on your wrist, you raise your elbow.
> 2. Your opponent uses horizontal pressure on your wrist, you turn your body.
> ...


Depending on the situation (those are all one-dimensional descriptions, so there are lots of variables), I'm most likely to pivot the hand around the pressure, regardless of the direction of that pressure. This disrupts the structure of the grip in almost any direction. Body movement goes with it, but that depends on a lot of things not covered here.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Depending on the situation (those are all one-dimensional descriptions, so there are lots of variables), I'm most likely to pivot the hand around the pressure, regardless of the direction of that pressure. This disrupts the structure of the grip in almost any direction. Body movement goes with it, but that depends on a lot of things not covered here.


Of course there are other counters too. A simple downward block will work too. Here is the "counter silk rolling".


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> I honestly think arm bar type locks are more effective in a real situation than wrist locks which are very hard to apply. much harder to get out of too


Wrist locks were never design to submit someone so they were design to damage the wrist and degrade the use of that hand. If I were to put a wrist lock on you.  I only need to maintain it long enough to dislocate it and break it.  That's the goal.  It is also easier to break the wrist than it is to maintain the lock like what you see in the movies.   After your wrist is broken or dislocated, your perspective on your victory in the fight will change. The fight may possible end right there.

In my opinion the "submission" of a wrist lock comes after the wrist is damaged.  It's at that point your opponent will submit


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> yeah control a larger limb. a wrist is small and hard to get too.


Getting to the wrist is the easy part of a wrist lock.  It's the other components that will provide a challenge for most people.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The problem is when you lock your opponent's wrist, his elbow is still free. All he needs to to is to raise his elbow to counter the wrist lock.


This depends on the wrist lock.  The one I like to use is specifically done to make you raise your elbow so I can take advantage of it.  For me it's one of the easier wrist locks because people typically pull their hand away in the direction that I need the arm to go.    Most locks in general are like this.  A person thinks they are escaping but in reality they are actually escaping deeper into the technique.

Joint locks tend to lead people into the lock.  The most difficult challenge to over come will be to develop the grip strength that's needed.  It's a slow process


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Wrist locks were never design to submit someone so they were design to damage the wrist and degrade the use of that hand.


Some wrist lock such as the "chicken wing" is used to force your opponent to walk with you (used by police). I think the police will have legal issue if he damages his opponent's wrist.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This depends on the wrist lock.


Sorry that I was only talking about the "small silk reeling". There are many other wrist locks that you won't be able to raise your elbow.

For example, the "hand reverse" wrist lock.

https://i.postimg.cc/MKmFFdTV/hand-reverse.gif


----------



## drop bear (Nov 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Wrist locks were never design to submit someone so they were design to damage the wrist and degrade the use of that hand. If I were to put a wrist lock on you.  I only need to maintain it long enough to dislocate it and break it.  That's the goal.  It is also easier to break the wrist than it is to maintain the lock like what you see in the movies.   After your wrist is broken or dislocated, your perspective on your victory in the fight will change. The fight may possible end right there.
> 
> In my opinion the "submission" of a wrist lock comes after the wrist is damaged.  It's at that point your opponent will submit



Yeah sort of. But it makes you a crappy training partner.

You can alternatively lock down the body so the wrist can't escape (generally pinning the elbow) and do a more controlled wrist lock. Then you can actually do wrist locks in live resisted sparring.

I do a lot of wrist locks. But one thing that drives me nuts is people cranking them on. I just don't think there is a benefit to that in training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> But one thing that drives me nuts is people cranking them on. I just don't think there is a benefit to that in training.


Amen to that.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 6, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Getting to the wrist is the easy part of a wrist lock.  It's the other components that will provide a challenge for most people.



Yeah sort of. Clinch, arm drag, two on one Russian, figure 4(sort of I am playing with something else now) gooseneck.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some wrist lock such as the "chicken wing" is used to force your opponent to walk with you (used by police). I think the police will have legal issue if he damages his opponent's wrist.


That's a law enforcement  focus and not self defense focus. Do that when it's 2 vs 1 and you're screwed.  The original intent is to break or damage the wrist. The walking beside the person is the position that prevents that person from striking you.  

Can a wrist lock be used to restrain? Sure. Is that the original intent? Nope.  Old TMA literature says as much.  They often refer to it as "Destroying" tendons, ligaments, and muscle.

Joint lock restraints often stop before the destruction.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah sort of. But it makes you a crappy training partner


You are going to do it in training if the teacher is good.  Training joint locks require a trusted training partner because it easy cause damage.  If you don't trust your partner's ability to put your safety first then find a new partner to train joint locks with.

Training students joint locks always make me nervous.  There's always that one person who thinks they need to use extra strength to make it work.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 6, 2021)

drop bear said:


> But one thing that drives me nuts is people cranking them on. I just don't think there is a benefit to that in training.


IMO you shouldn't train with people like that. They don't understand the damage they are doing to you.  If they get it right then there's no need to crank it. If I saw someone do that to you in my class then your partner would get a warning. The second time they do it, I would remove them from using and training wrist locks. Until they learn better control or gain more respect for your safety.


----------



## dunc (Nov 7, 2021)

The issue with locking the wrist is that there is a lot of mobility upstream from the joint being locked
So there are many options for relatively experienced folk to escape
So for training with friends (ie safely) they tend to either require full control of the forearm/elbow or be limited to eliciting a reaction from your opponent (eg forcing a grip release)
In a more traditional context the issue of mobility still applies, but can be overcome by strikes (in which case you also take advantage of the fact that wrist locks can be applied quickly)


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2021)

dunc said:


> So there are many options for relatively experienced folk to escape


This is why I think the title of this tread is too conservative.

To escape a wrist lock is step 1. To take advantage on a wrist lock is step 2. IMO, just to chase your enemy away is not good enough. You enemy will come back. How do you stop your enemy from coming back?


----------



## dunc (Nov 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I think the title of this tread is too conservative.
> 
> To escape a wrist lock is step 1. To take advantage on a wrist lock is step 2. IMO, just to chase your enemy away is not good enough. You enemy will come back. How do you stop your enemy from coming back?


Yes I agree that the video at the beginning of the thread (which didn’t have a wrist lock) wasn’t particularly effective
If you’re applying a technique then it should progress your situation as you say
In addition the guy showing the technique creates no structural defence or control despite the attack being pretty ineffective


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I think the title of this tread is too conservative.
> 
> To escape a wrist lock is step 1. To take advantage on a wrist lock is step 2. IMO, just to chase your enemy away is not good enough. You enemy will come back. How do you stop your enemy from coming back?


ha ha ha. break that wrist and if your enemy still comes back, then he'll be coming back with less than he started with.  One less working wrist lol.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha. break that wrist and if your enemy still comes back, then he'll be coming back with less than he started with.  One less working wrist lol.


That's what I call the "finish move". We all try to develop some finish moves in our life time and hope that we never have to use it.


----------

