# Child Black Belts



## fnorfurfoot (Jun 12, 2006)

I know that there are different opinions on this subject so I thought that I would ask...................At what age should a child be able to earn a 1st Dan?  

I can understand the idea that if they are able to perform the material, it shouldn't matter what age the child is, but at the same time I think that a 1st Dan should be able to handle themselves against an adult attacker.

I am not yet in a position to promote a Black Belt, but I am going with the belief that the children will be earning a Jr. Black until they are 16 or so.  What are your thoughts?


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## Carol (Jun 12, 2006)

We start our adult class at 13.  A lot of the 13 year olds in the class (girls and boys) are bigger than I am.

I think that is the age when we begin promoting to Jr. Black.  For the adult 1st black...usually 18, but I know of at least one teen girl that earned it before hand.  She can beat me to a pulp


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## Sigung86 (Jun 12, 2006)

I think that if a kid, regardless of age, can do the requirements for a dan grade, then let her/him have it.  I guess I should state that as, "Why not let her/him have it"... Then we could make the other higher ranks, say, 7th thru 10th, just a teeny bit harder to legitimately earn.


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## KempoShaun (Jun 12, 2006)

I place no restrictions on Junior Shodan, but for adult Shodan, the age must be 16, and another test.  Just my way


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't believe in Children's Black Belts.... Then again, Martial Arts has become a big buisness with most of it consumers being children, so I guess there is no choice for school owners.

On a side note:

I went to my 7 year old cousin's friends b-day party at the local ATA school.  There where a couple of kids her age wearing 3RD DANS!!!  They were not even close to say what a junior 7th kyu would be in Kenpo.  The instructors where 20 to 25 and went by the title master.  This type of crap leads me to think America has downgraded the whole idea of black belt and master.


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## Ping898 (Jun 19, 2006)

Well I earned my 1st Dan at 17 so I may be a bit biased.  I would saw that minimum of 18 with 16 and 17 possible on a case by case basis assuming of course the meeting of requirements.


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## Sapper6 (Jun 19, 2006)

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> I don't believe in Children's Black Belts.... Then again, Martial Arts has become a big buisness with most of it consumers being children, so I guess there is no choice for school owners.
> 
> On a side note:
> 
> I went to my 7 year old cousin's friends b-day party at the local ATA school. There where a couple of kids her age wearing 3RD DANS!!! They were not even close to say what a junior 7th kyu would be in Kenpo. The instructors where 20 to 25 and went by the title master. This type of crap leads me to think America has downgraded the whole idea of black belt and master.


 
i completely understand what you are saying.  i used to get all bent out of shape about the thing as well.  _used to_.

why should we care? unless of course you study in the same school and are busting your *** getting nowhere?  why should we give a damn if 7 year old "timmy" is a 3rd dan?  why do people get so offended about the topic.

the black belt is a simple represenation of material taught in any said system, period.  (please note, i didn't say "knowledge possessed")  your system's standards might be higher, while their's...well, you get the idea.

i could care less about what other people do in their schools, or how they give rank.  i know what my belt means to me and that is all that matters.  i also know that we have 7 year old orange belts that would wipe the floor with a 7 year old ATA 3rd black.  should it matter?  of course not.  standards differ.  their black belt standards might have consisted of a spelling contest and back flips.

why do we as martial artists get so offended when we see the "paul mitchell black belt"?  are we really that insecure?

IMO, who cares about age.  my standard would be different from yours, and your's different from the next guy, and so on...etc.  we can't even begin to try and standardize the practice.  the equation isn't that simple.

my advice, do what you do and do it the best that you can.  don't lose sleep over the things you cannot control.  and the next time you see 8 year old "timmy", congratulate him on his 4th dan...it might have costed his mom a fortune.


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## Ray (Jun 20, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> why should we care? unless of course you study in the same school and are busting your *** getting nowhere? why should we give a damn if 7 year old "timmy" is a 3rd dan? why do people get so offended about the topic.


You're right, it's not like Timmy is claiming to be an MD and practicing medicine.  


			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> my advice, do what you do and do it the best that you can. don't lose sleep over the things you cannot control. and the next time you see 8 year old "timmy", congratulate him on his 4th dan...it might have costed his mom a fortune.


You really have to feel for Timmy's mom.

I remember, after I left the Salt Lake area and my original instructor in 1992, going to an area where I could find no kenpo schools.  My teacher (in Salt Lake) had two kids who were 16 whom he promoted to black belt; they were awesome fighters.  In fact, anyone who was brown or black was pretty tough.  So, in this other area, I figure I'll take TKD for a while --- first night we sparred and the first guy I get is a 16 year old with a black belt (I don't remember how many stripes); how did I know he was 16?  Because he said "Hey, take it easy on me, I'm only 16."  The thought that ran through my mind was "why the heck are you wearing a black belt?"


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## gixxershane (Jun 20, 2006)

i have to agree with most all of you... i know what my black belt means to me and what i had to go through to get it...

if/when i own a school, minimum age for first degree will be between 16-18 years old..

i cant see giving someone a false sense of security buy giving them a black belt if they cant defend them selfs like a black belt should..

this is just my opinion, and you know what they say about thoes!


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## Sapper6 (Jun 20, 2006)

if you asked 10 different instructors of 10 different systems "what should be the standard to achieve 1st degree black belt?", you are likely to get 10 different answers.  it's impossible to suggest "accreditation" like civilian educational institutions among martial arts schools.  the curriculum and material is in no way similiar to one another.  what's good for one school might be sub-par to another.  for example, look at the different standards that exist just in the world of American kenpo.  people are doing different things in different schools, yet they all claim to teach the system correctly.  i'm not picking on the AK people, just using that as an example. 

to answer the original question at hand, what do i think about child black belts?  i don't care.  i have my own standards.


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## stickarts (Jun 20, 2006)

We have a minimum age limit of 14 years old to quailfy to test for Adult Blackbelt.
Below age 14 can test for Jr. blackbelt.
I need to see mental maturity and an ability to actually be able to understand and use techniques in addition to memorizing all of the material.
I am not saying it can't be done at an earlier age but in my experience it would be pretty rare.

I too have seen many different approaches to this and i am sure they all have their merits.
For now, we do have a minimum age requirement.


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## matt.m (Jun 20, 2006)

In Tae Kwon Do a child could be a jr. dan at 13 or 14 and have to retest at 17.  In hapkido you aren't allowed in class till age 16 so the age is not an issue in that aspect.


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## ChrisWTK (Jun 20, 2006)

gixxershane said:
			
		

> i cant see giving someone a false sense of security buy giving them a black belt if they cant defend them selfs like a black belt should..


 
I personally don't agree with children black belts because I dont think they have the understanding required to have one yet, but I don't understand why it would be because they can't defend themselves yet. Being a black belt doesn't mean that you can defend yourself, I wish it would mean that but that's not neccessarily true.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2006)

I think a lot of the issues, complaints, and objections raised here regarding child black belts are directly related to the issue of martial arts as business.  Many of the same complaints are applicable to lousy adult black belts as well, but with the children there is an age and maturity issue that compounds the problem.

When martial arts are a business, then decisions are made as a business.  All decisions revolve around keeping the business profitable and are made with that goal in mind.  How is the business profitable?  by keeping students paying fees and buying merchandise.  

So how do you keep students paying fees and coming back?  you give lots of promotions, even when they aren't warranted.  To the students who don't know better, this makes them feel good about themselves and gives them a certain amount of bragging rights.  And it keeps money flowing into the school.

When you run a business and it grows large enough that you can't do it all yourself, you need to hire some help.  So some of your students become instructors.  Maybe they aren't really ready yet, but the business needs them so you give them another promotion and then you have a crew of 20-year-old instructors teaching all the kids.  But these instructors are young and inexperienced about life, even if they have some martial skills.  They just aren't mature enough to be a good instructor yet.  Now these instructors need to teach according to the business plan, which mandates frequent promotions for all, so it becomes a downward spiral and perpetuates a bad situation.  

Because these instructors are young and came up thru the ranks under your instruction, and you can sell them on the "growth" they will undergo by being instructors, you can get away with paying them poorly to do all the teaching, while you focus more on the business and figure out how to bring in more money.

Personally, I think it is unfortunate that people turn martial arts into a business designed to be their primary source of income.  When it becomes this kind of business, then all activities will be dictated by the business plan.

When instructors have a day job that isn't martial arts, and they just teach martial arts on the side out of love for the art, and any business side of the teaching is designed to primarily cover the costs of training and teaching, and monetary profits are not the primary focus, then the instructor can escape these heavy business priorities.  Without the business obligations, an instructor can just teach the best quality that he can, and give promotions when he really feels they are warranted, regardless of the age of the student.  A real relationship develops between teacher and student, and the student grows much more fully and the quality of the arts stays higher.  Then we don't have adult black belts who are lousy, nor do we have 8-year-old 4th Dans.


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## Rick Wade (Jun 20, 2006)

How old till you can drink?
How old till you can drive a car?
How old till you can vote?
How old till you can die for your country?
How old till you can date?
How old till you can smoke?

When you can answer these questions and then way the responsibility of these and compare it to a black belt then the answer will be clear.

I personnally don't have an age in mind i have seen 16 year olds that were mature enough to handel being a black belt but didn't have the requirements.  I have also seen 3rd degree black belts that were not mature enough.  

Aloha

Rick


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## BigMike (Jun 20, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i could care less about what other people do in their schools, or how they give rank. i know what my belt means to me and that is all that matters.


 
I picked up the same attitude as Sapper after a few experiences. I've been humbled by lower belts and have, in turned, humbled a BB or two. I attended a Kenpo seminar where the other purple belts from the region had never sparred, but there was an orange belt there who worked the practical aspects of the teachings with me all day long.

I've come to care only about the system being used in my own school. If I had a teacher promoting some over others unfairly, I'd have a problem with it. But there are just too many schools out there to worry about if they give children black belts. Someone will always be doing it. If I have my own school one day, I think I won't give the belt to anyone under 18, maybe 16. There's something about the words "tried as an adult" that I would want anyone I licensed as a BB to understand before I turned them loose.


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## Nomad (Jun 20, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> How old till you can drink?
> How old till you can drive a car?
> How old till you can vote?
> How old till you can die for your country?
> ...


 
Well put.  I'm with you on this one.  On Rare occasions an exceptional student may get theirs a little earlier but I think 18 should be minimum. It's a matter of maturity and responsibility as well as simply knowing the curriculum, in my opinion.  Younger than this simply doesn't have it.  I'm ok with junior black belts for those too young but who have the physical side down, as long as there's a clear demarcation between the levels.


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 20, 2006)

I perfectly understand that rank in one school doesn't hold water in another.  I was just giving an example of how extreme children's blackbelt rankings are now because of Martial Buisness.  

I only care what my students do.  

*Sapper6* I completely agree with you. :asian:


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## Carol (Jun 20, 2006)

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> I perfectly understand that rank in one school doesn't hold water in another. I was just giving an example of how extreme children's blackbelt rankings are now because of Martial Buisness.


 
I agree.

From my eyes it is not so much that MA is a business that is a problem, it is the rampant lack of business skills that are a problem.

It would be scandalous if someone taught Martial Arts without any training or education whatsoever.  Yet, it is perfectly acceptable in MA for someone to start a MA buisness without any formal training or education in a solid buisness curriculum.


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## ChrisWTK (Jun 21, 2006)

Here's a situation I want you to consider. There's a 13 year old black belt from my dojo who I post back and forth with on my dojo's forum. He asks a lot of questions, which isn't a bad thing, but he asks questions about concepts and theorys that he should, in my opinion, already know about as a black belt. I have no doubt in my mind that he could beat me in a fight if he wanted to cause he has the skills necessary to be a black belt. But he doesn't have understanding of the fighting concepts to even teach what he just does naturally.

One reason for this could be that he doesn't pay attention in class. The concepts are taught in class so he should know them, as far as I'm concerned, although I'm not sure if they're emphasized as much in the younger classes as compared to the adult ones. The other reason could be that he's just too young to understand the concepts, to actually make that connection and he's just never had to because he could naturally do the techniques without the understanding.


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## Sapper6 (Jun 21, 2006)

ChrisWTK said:
			
		

> Here's a situation I want you to consider. There's a 13 year old black belt from my dojo who I post back and forth with on my dojo's forum. He asks a lot of questions, which isn't a bad thing, but he asks questions about concepts and theorys that he should, in my opinion, already know about as a black belt. I have no doubt in my mind that he could beat me in a fight if he wanted to cause he has the skills necessary to be a black belt. But he doesn't have understanding of the fighting concepts to even teach what he just does naturally.
> 
> One reason for this could be that he doesn't pay attention in class. The concepts are taught in class so he should know them, as far as I'm concerned, although I'm not sure if they're emphasized as much in the younger classes as compared to the adult ones. The other reason could be that he's just too young to understand the concepts, to actually make that connection and he's just never had to because he could naturally do the techniques without the understanding.


 
wow.

possessing ability and being able to teach it are two different things.  some people know "how" to do things but not necessarily how to "teach" them.  

i don't know what your school's standards are for being promoted to black belt so i am not going to comment on that.  however, i would at least expect that respective students have a solid understanding of the things they are doing and why they do them, before being promoted.  just being "able" doesn't necessarily make one qualified.

therein lies the problem with promoting young students beyond their realm of understanding.  you must learn to crawl before walking.


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## ChrisWTK (Jun 21, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> wow.
> 
> possessing ability and being able to teach it are two different things. some people know "how" to do things but not necessarily how to "teach" them.


Yeah, that was bad wording on my part. I didn't mean teaching but just being able to express what you know. When he tries to explain things you can really tell where his comprehension is lacking and it's clear that it's mainly because he's young.



			
				Sapper6 said:
			
		

> i don't know what your school's standards are for being promoted to black belt so i am not going to comment on that. however, i would at least expect that respective students have a solid understanding of the things they are doing and why they do them, before being promoted. just being "able" doesn't necessarily make one qualified.
> 
> therein lies the problem with promoting young students beyond their realm of understanding. you must learn to crawl before walking.


 
I agree, that's the point i was trying to show.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 21, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> From my eyes it is not so much that MA is a business that is a problem, it is the rampant lack of business skills that are a problem.
> 
> It would be scandalous if someone taught Martial Arts without any training or education whatsoever. Yet, it is perfectly acceptable in MA for someone to start a MA buisness without any formal training or education in a solid buisness curriculum.


 
Actually, I think the problem is that too many people are too good at business, and the Martial Arts in many ways are incompatible with a successful business model, if you want to maintain high quality and standards.

Probably some of the best instruction is being done by those who do not have a strong business focus.  These are the same people who do not pander to children and "Martial Arts Moms", their dojo is not daycare, and they don't give out rank to those who do not deserve it, no matter their age.


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## BigMike (Jun 21, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Actually, I think the problem is that too many people are too good at business, and the Martial Arts in many ways are incompatible with a successful business model, if you want to maintain high quality and standards.


 
I'm getting a business degree right now and I'd have to agree with this.  MA Schools just aren't a traditional business.  The goals are different.  You're not turning out quantifiable product.  I think where the problem lies is that some instructors appear to look at the # of black belts or belt progressions per quarter as their product.  Then they turn around and promise that progression to moms and students.  Then, if the required quota isn't achieved, they are set up as a failure.  And nobody wants to be a failure, so the standards come down.

My last teacher ran his own business, so he had both sets of skills.  He maintained very high standards for his belts, but I think that's because he didn't view it as a business, but more of a hobby or a calling.

Big Mike


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## Carol (Jun 24, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Actually, I think the problem is that too many people are too good at business, and the Martial Arts in many ways are incompatible with a successful business model, if you want to maintain high quality and standards.
> 
> Probably some of the best instruction is being done by those who do not have a strong business focus. These are the same people who do not pander to children and "Martial Arts Moms", their dojo is not daycare, and they don't give out rank to those who do not deserve it, no matter their age.


 
Aha.  Very good point, and I agree so let me clarify where I'm from being a businessperson myself.

What is happening to these schools is a lowest common denomonator approach, a giveaway approach.  Only that instead of dropping the price they are weakening the value.  The problem sources from a lack of good selling skills.  In the corporate world, salespeople typically have higher salaries than their similarly ranked peers, and executive-level perks.  This is for two important reasons:  competent salespeople bring revenue in to the company _and_ keep the value of the product.  Small businesses of many sorts often fall flat apart because the owners don't have the salesmanship or business development skills to achieve these two critical tasks.

Selling is a skill, and selling is very very hard to do well.  Business is tough, and can take years to cultivate.  

The instructors that keep their instruction at a high quality are instinctively keeping the value of their product, and are willing to do what they need to do  (ie:  work another job) to keep the value.   Pairing this  business development/operating skills, and over time one could potentially have the best of both worlds:  a very successful business with a very high quality product.


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## hongkongfooey (Jun 24, 2006)

ChrisWTK said:
			
		

> Here's a situation I want you to consider. There's a 13 year old black belt from my dojo who I post back and forth with on my dojo's forum. He asks a lot of questions, which isn't a bad thing, but he asks questions about concepts and theorys that he should, in my opinion, already know about as a black belt. I have no doubt in my mind that he could beat me in a fight if he wanted to cause he has the skills necessary to be a black belt. But he doesn't have understanding of the fighting concepts to even teach what he just does naturally.
> 
> One reason for this could be that he doesn't pay attention in class. The concepts are taught in class so he should know them, as far as I'm concerned, although I'm not sure if they're emphasized as much in the younger classes as compared to the adult ones. The other reason could be that he's just too young to understand the concepts, to actually make that connection and he's just never had to because he could naturally do the techniques without the understanding.


 

Don't equate skills aquired to pass a promotion with fighting skills. I seriously doubt that a 13 year old child could beat a fully grown adult in a real fight. He may land a shot or two in sparring, but that's not fighting.


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