# Escape thread.



## Ironbear24 (Apr 2, 2016)

What are some of your strategies and overall favorite reversals and escapes to being grappled as well as submissions? I personally like doing something like this in the video. Basically controlling my opponent and then reversing the position. I find it easier to do becuase it doesn't have a billion steps and positioning to remember.


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## Lameman (Apr 3, 2016)

Unfortunatly, I can't watch videos on here. (Or make paragraphs grrr) Anyway, I always like to stay on my feet. Don't like to get into situations where I have to counter a grapple. Redirect the initial energy. Get behind or beside them and control the situation. I grapple them, they don't grapple me. One of the hard things in fighting is denying yourself an opportunity. You don't fight people where they are strong even if you are stronger. Anyone can get lucky, especially if they are strong in an area. First neutralize their strengths, then attack their weaknesses. Just from the initial picture, the guy on the bottom has a **** loadof options. I'd go for the nuts. 9 pounds of pressure, and he gets a new nickname. But that's just me. And probably not legal in a match. Otherwise control the head and snake the arm into a submission.


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> What are some of your strategies and overall favorite reversals and escapes to being grappled as well as submissions? I personally like doing something like this in the video. Basically controlling my opponent and then reversing the position. I find it easier to do becuase it doesn't have a billion steps and positioning to remember.



Good escape. That version made my eyes bleed. It was just so lazy. 

On your back get your head off the bloody ground!!!!!!!!!! 

And everything else. 

Anyway i really like at least two escapes to every thing and this is so the person attacking is forced to move to defend your escape. This gives you a higher percentage of getting out. 

The knee push to half guard is a good companion to that hip bump.


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## Buka (Apr 3, 2016)

Basic escapes from mount should be in everyone's toolbox. Especially nowadays.

Just remember -


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## Andrew Green (Apr 3, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> What are some of your strategies and overall favorite reversals and escapes to being grappled as well as submissions? I personally like doing something like this in the video. Basically controlling my opponent and then reversing the position. I find it easier to do becuase it doesn't have a billion steps and positioning to remember.



There is a lot wrong there from a grappling POV, It's something, and something is better then nothing, but against someone with a grappling or wrestling background there are some issues with the way he is doing this.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 3, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> There is a lot wrong there from a grappling POV, It's something, and something is better then nothing, but against someone with a grappling or wrestling background there are some issues with the way he is doing this.



No espace is going to be perfect and everything has an answer. But if you want to share some better alternatives feel free.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 3, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> No espace is going to be perfect and everything has an answer. But if you want to share some better alternatives feel free.



It really comes down to the smaller details as to why this is not so good.  The basic concept is a simple bridge & roll (Upa for the BJJ folks), but the details are off. Foot placement, weight placement, poor base, serious risk of giving up his back...

For reference here is the Gracie Academy video for the same technique, which is also self-defence geared.  Just look at the little details in how they apply things.  Where the feet are, where the hands are, where the weight goes after the roll over.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 3, 2016)

It is the same thing done differently. They both limit space and control the opponent. The first uses the opponents strike against him which is something I always like. Then uses the neck rather then the chest to control. I like both so thanks for sharing it.


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## Buka (Apr 3, 2016)

You might find this one from my Instructor interesting as well.


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2016)

The other escape from mount.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 3, 2016)

Buka said:


> You might find this one from my Instructor interesting as well.



I think that one just blew the last two videos out of the water. Thanks for showing that one. It is simple and easy to remember.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 3, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It is the same thing done differently. They both limit space and control the opponent. The first uses the opponents strike against him which is something I always like. Then uses the neck rather then the chest to control. I like both so thanks for sharing it.



Not really, sometimes it is the details that make things work vs not work.  It's like seeing a person through a front kick as a white belt vs a black belt.  Same basic idea, but there are some important things missing.  That head control for example is really not a great idea, if the bottom guy knew what he was doing the demonstrator would have had bad things happen to him.

Think of it this way, it's kind of like watching a may that fighter try and teach push hands... to someone that doesn't know what they are looking at it might look kinda similar, but to a trained person some things are going to stick out badly.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 3, 2016)

Buka said:


> You might find this one from my Instructor interesting as well.


I don't know how I feel about this one for someone without grappling experience. As someone with very little groundwork, I have attempted this one multiple times, and it ends up most of the time with me failing, or them getting my back. I have been successful using almost exactly the way that the gracie combatives video shows multiple times, however. 
Not saying that way is better, just that as a beginner it is much easier to do. I assume this would apply to other ground-grappling beginners as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 3, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I personally like doing something like this in the video. Basically controlling my opponent and then reversing the position. I find it easier to do becuase it doesn't have a billion steps and positioning to remember.



Usually when you see videos on escaping ground positions, it's either the standard solid material from practitioners of BJJ, Judo, MMA,etc or else completely ineffective nonsense from people who have no idea about ground fighting. This video is the rare example of something in the middle. The demonstrator is doing several things right and looks skilled enough to make the escape work against low-level opponents. Unfortunately, he also has some significant flaws in his technique which will doom him against someone who is actually good from the top of mount.



Lameman said:


> Anyway, I always like to stay on my feet. Don't like to get into situations where I have to counter a grapple.



It's totally reasonable to prefer staying on your feet. However it's a mistake to assume that you can't ever be taken down and end up on the bottom of a bad situation. That's what learning escapes is all about.



Lameman said:


> Just from the initial picture, the guy on the bottom has a **** loadof options. I'd go for the nuts



Heh ... no. Trying to attack the groin from bottom of mount is a recipe for getting yourself hurt.



kempodisciple said:


> I don't know how I feel about this one for someone without grappling experience. As someone with very little groundwork, I have attempted this one multiple times, and it ends up most of the time with me failing, or them getting my back. I have been successful using almost exactly the way that the gracie combatives video shows multiple times, however.
> Not saying that way is better, just that as a beginner it is much easier to do. I assume this would apply to other ground-grappling beginners as well.



One thing that Rener and Ryron Gracie do very well is teach versions of fundamental techniques that beginners can quickly pick up and apply effectively. Sometimes I personally adopt different variations of those techniques which work better at the higher levels - but I find that newer students can't pick those up as well.


Regarding the original question - it's a big topic. Personally I'd recommend that everybody, even if they aren't ground specialists,  learn at least two different solid escapes from the bottom of the most common ground positions (mound, side mount, headlock/kesa gatame). If you actually want to be _good_ on the ground, it goes much, much deeper.

General thoughts...

The more you learn about controlling someone from the top of a position, the more you understand about how to escape from the bottom of that position. (Conversely, the more you know about escaping from the bottom, the better your top control should be.)

Even though there are hundreds of valid escape techniques and variations, a huge percentage of them are built off the fundamental movements of bridging and shrimping.

Don't count on being able to escape with just one move any more than you can count on hitting someone with single, isolated punches. You need to string your movements together into combinations. (That's why I recommend knowing at least two escapes from each position.)

The appropriate positioning to protect yourself from strikes when you are on the bottom is not always in congruence with the best positioning for protecting yourself from submissions. You need to practice protecting against both and have the awareness to switch back and forth as necessary.

Once you are on the bottom of a bad position, your opponent has the advantage. If you want to escape, you are going to have to work harder/smarter/more skillfully than the guy on top of you. You can use the analogy of a race. If you give someone a 50 yard head start and then you both run at the same speed for the entire race, then he is going to beat you to the finish line.

If you want to get good at escapes, you have to spend a _lot_ of time on the bottom trying to get away from someone who is doing their best to control you. When I roll with white belts, blue belts, and most purple belts I normally ask them to start out on top in their favorite control position (mount, side mount, whatever). That gives me plenty of practice working from bad positions.

Often the best time to escape is during transitions. A big, skilled guy who is really good at just pinning you in side control can be a nightmare to escape. If you know how to just protect yourself and chill, you can watch for your opportunity to escape when he tries transitioning to mount or going for a submission or posturing up to strike.


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## Lameman (Apr 3, 2016)

I am NOT good on the ground, hence my avoidence of it. I will take your authority on the subject but I am curious what happens if I go for the groin? Suddenly thinking arm bar. Am I right?


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2016)

Lameman said:


> I am NOT good on the ground, hence my avoidence of it. I will take your authority on the subject but I am curious what happens if I go for the groin? Suddenly thinking arm bar. Am I right?



You get your face elbowed off.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 3, 2016)

Lameman said:


> I am NOT good on the ground, hence my avoidence of it. I will take your authority on the subject but I am curious what happens if I go for the groin? Suddenly thinking arm bar. Am I right?


Probably not an arm bar. It's not the right angle for that. (If you reach up to gouge the eyes - _that's_ when you get arm-barred.)

Bottom of mount actually gives you a pretty awkward angle for reaching the groin effectively. Not saying you couldn't get hold of it - but by the time you do your opponent has likely given you a concussion, choked you unconscious, or knocked you out cold because you didn't have that hand up protecting your head. Alternately, there are ways the top guy can just pin your arm that you're reaching with so that you can't get to the groin and you also can't get it back to protect yourself.

That's with a high mount (where they're posturing up to strike you). If it's a properly executed low mount (where they're squashing you flat), you literally have no pathway to reach their groin. If you try, you'll just get your arm stuck.


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## Hanzou (Apr 3, 2016)

Lameman said:


> I am NOT good on the ground, hence my avoidence of it. I will take your authority on the subject but I am curious what happens if I go for the groin? Suddenly thinking arm bar. Am I right?



Honestly, Drop Bear is right, you're just going to get hammered in the face until it becomes hamburger. Even skilled guys aren't going to waste time going for an arm bar because you risk losing your dominant position. No, an unskilled guy will punch you in the face multiple times, and a more skilled guy will hit you with elbows (and even head buts) so that they don't break their hands. Either way, you're going to keep getting popped until you're unconcious, a vegatable, or dead. If you survive without brain damage from the head trauma, you're going to have severe injuries, and even permanent damage to the fragile bones in your face.

Frankly, a choke or an arm bar is a blessing in comparison.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 3, 2016)

Lameman said:


> I am NOT good on the ground, hence my avoidence of it. I will take your authority on the subject but I am curious what happens if I go for the groin? Suddenly thinking arm bar. Am I right?



No. Think about it. How are you going to punch his groin if he is sitting on you? His testicles are going to be on your body, you won't be able to reach unless you somehow dig your fist into your body and then up into his groin, and that is simply impossible.

You will be able to punch his pelvis, maybe his Willy but getting punched there won't really do anything serious. If you want to talk about striking to get out then aim for the diaphragm, or stomach, an experienced guy will close the distance so you have no room to strike though. So it is beneficial to instead turn the tables on him.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 4, 2016)

If you manage to take a guy out who has you mounted with a groin strike (or pretty much any strike), I recommend you immediately go buy a lottery ticket. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 4, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> If you manage to take a guy out who has you mounted with a groin strike (or pretty much any strike), I recommend you immediately go buy a lottery ticket.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It's not impossible. I've knocked the wind out of someone who had me in that position. I will agree with you and say it is very unlikely to happen. They can generally block and control you so easily in that circumstance and make it difficult to land a decent strike.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 4, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It's not impossible. I've knocked the wind out of someone who had me in that position. I will agree with you and say it is very unlikely to happen. They can generally block and control you so easily in that circumstance and make it difficult to land a decent strike.


For me, it's risk versus reward. I'm much more likely to sacrifice my face by going for the groin in that situation than managing a good strike of my own. Being mounted sucks, but there are much better options available.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 4, 2016)

Oh I wasn't talking about going for the groin. I punched the guy in the sternum and knocked the wind out of him. The groin would be pretty much unreachable due to him sitting on top of you.


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## Hanzou (Apr 4, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> For me, it's risk versus reward. I'm much more likely to sacrifice my face by going for the groin in that situation than managing a good strike of my own. Being mounted sucks, but there are much better options available.



Please try your theory sometime. Have someone sit on top of you with you wearing headgear with a mouthguard, and have them drop semi-heavy blows on your face. While they are doing this, attempt a groin strike that is capable of disabling them. I can assure you that you're going to be taking FAR more damage than they are.

Alternatively, you can simply do what the Gracie Bros. did in that video shown earlier and save yourself the headache.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 4, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Please try your theory sometime. Have someone sit on top of you with you wearing headgear with a mouthguard, and have them drop semi-heavy blows on your face. While they are doing this, attempt a groin strike that is capable of disabling them. I can assure you that you're going to be taking FAR more damage than they are.


Yeah, I'm not arguing in favor of attempting pretty much any strikes while someone has me mounted.


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## Hanzou (Apr 4, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> Yeah, I'm not arguing in favor of attempting pretty much any strikes while someone has me mounted.



Yeah sorry, mis-read your quote.

But yeah, anytime you have a theory, you should test it out and see how it goes for you.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 4, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah sorry, mis-read your quote.
> 
> But yeah, anytime you have a theory, you should test it out and see how it goes for you.


Generally, I agree with you, but I'll pass on testing that particular theory^^.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 4, 2016)

Jaeimseu said:


> Generally, I agree with you, but I'll pass on testing that particular theory^^.



It has been tested.  Punching a guy in the chest from bottom is legal in MMA, yet never happens.  Ok, that's partially true, it occasionally happens at really low level events and generally ends badly for the bottom guy.  Strikes against a person mounted on you is a bad idea.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 4, 2016)

Interesting side mount escapes. Warning. This video is British. If you have an issue with that you have been warned.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 4, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Interesting side mount escapes. Warning. This video is British. If you have an issue with that you have been warned.


Good stuff. Kesa can be hard to escape if the person on the top really knows what they are doing.


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