# Paterno stripped of 111 wins....right or wrong?



## punisher73 (Jul 24, 2012)

NCAA announced yesterday that they were stripping 111 wins off of Paterno's record, dropping him from #1 winningest coach down to #5.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-111-wins-to-make-bowden-football-s-no-1.html


Do you think this is right to do, or just a misguided gesture to attempt to right something that can't be? Does removing them really change that he has had more coaching seasons than any other coach in history? does removing them really change that he has won more games than any other coach?


----------



## elder999 (Jul 24, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> NCAA announced yesterday that they were stripping 111 wins off of Paterno's record, dropping him from #1 winningest coach down to #5.
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...-111-wins-to-make-bowden-football-s-no-1.html
> 
> 
> Do you think this is right to do, or just a misguided gesture to attempt to right something that can't be? Does removing them really change that he has had more coaching seasons than any other coach in history? does removing them really change that he has won more games than any other coach?




1) The wins were stripped from Penn State' s record.

2) Paterno is dead.

3) When he was alive, he was part of the coverup and failure to stop Sandusky.

4) Oh, yeah: Paterno is *dead*.

Right or wrong doesn't really enter into it; they're punishing the college-not Paterno who is, after all, dead.


----------



## Steve (Jul 24, 2012)

elder999 said:


> 1) The wins were stripped from Penn State' s record.
> 
> 2) Paterno is dead.
> 
> ...


If the administration on the team knowingly covered this up, my personal opinion is that they correctly stripped the college of any official record, and they should clean house completely.  Every single one of them should be fired.  After that, I would say the NAACP shouldn't penalize the kids.  Hire new staff and let them play ball.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jul 24, 2012)

elder999 said:


> 1) The wins were stripped from Penn State' s record.
> 
> 2) Paterno is dead.
> 
> ...



Well, apparently, since the college loses the wins, so does Paterno, and everyone who played.  So there are pro-football players, who no longer have an official record.  Of course, that doesn't mean they will be summarly fired by the pro teams, but it has to be a bummer.  

I personally would feel better if the investigation were published, or given some credibility beyond Mr. Freeh said so.  I don't mean anything against him, but what he is reported to have said, and on what established evidence, is different than what some, such as the media, or those accused, might want to verify or take issue with.

At the same time, how do you take care of this if not this way.  It could not be ignored.



Steve said:


> If the administration on the team knowingly covered this up, my personal opinion is that they correctly stripped the college of any official record, and they should clean house completely. Every single one of them should be fired. After that, I would say the NAACP shouldn't penalize the kids. Hire new staff and let them play ball.



Steve, I think you  meant NCAA?  ;-)


----------



## Steve (Jul 24, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Steve, I think you  meant NCAA?  ;-)


LOL... yeah.  My fingers were on auto-pilot.


----------



## d1jinx (Jul 24, 2012)

Wrong.

Punish the school and administration. 

Not the Players, Team, and Alumni who actually earned those wins.

Penalize and fine the hell out of them. Gut thier future football program. Do whatever, 

but to forfiet WINS and titles of team and players of past is just WRONG.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Jul 24, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Punish the school and administration.
> 
> ...



The players and alumni were part of the cover-up.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Josh Oakley (Jul 24, 2012)

Steve said:


> If the administration on the team knowingly covered this up, my personal opinion is that they correctly stripped the college of any official record, and they should clean house completely.  Every single one of them should be fired.  After that, I would say the NAACP shouldn't penalize the kids.  Hire new staff and let them play ball.



The players themselves were part of the cover-up. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 24, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Punish the school and administration.
> 
> ...



So now the team is the victim in your mind not the kids that were raped in the showers?  That's silly.  The only reason this was ever covered up was because of the wins had this been a science teacher it would have never been covered up.  It was the football team that covered it up and the football team should pay the price.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jul 24, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> So now the team is the victim in your mind not the kids that were raped in the showers? That's silly. The only reason this was ever covered up was because of the wins had this been a science teacher it would have never been covered up. It was the football team that covered it up and the football team should pay the price.



I'm not doubting you, but could you provide some links to show that as true? 

If the team players helped in the cover-up, I hope they get their day in court. Accessory after the fact deserves punishment as well. That is why what happened to Paterno is OK if he tried to cover things up as well. But if they knew nothing, and did not actively try to cover up what they knew was going on, why should they be punished? I just don't know if there was a good way to punish the school and not have (innocent) players suffer as well.

Moreover, any former students that can be shown (in a court of law, or maybe even in a thorough unassailable investigation) to have actively participated in cover-up(s), if they are playing for professional teams, should be gotten rid of.  That is the one thing that bothers me about Paterno.  I don't know that anything in the public domain has been proven against him.  That said, he seemed to accept his firing without a lot of complaints.


----------



## granfire (Jul 24, 2012)

Somebody told me Pen State has a weird way of dealing with problems:
it used to be a favorite past time during a certain week to entice female students to flash the guys roaming the campus. 
Instead of punishing the roaming guys, females were punished is they even as much as turned their dorm lights on during that week....

The football program was used to cover up ONGOING abuse. We are not talking a couple of kids here. No telling how many boys were actually abused but have not come forward yet or if hey ever will. 

It's no different from two people playing dirty and he whole program getting docked, as it has been in the past. 

Does it suck for the players? I suppose. But in the end they will have their asterisk behind their name with the footnote of 'played for ill fated Pen State team' 
They won the games on the field, that feeling can't be taken away from them. Just like the feeling of violation will always with the victims of Sandusky. 

But that guy is a prime example on how evil strives when good men look the other way.

Football means nothing in the grand scheme, no matter how much money it can generate for a school...in the end, it is a game.


----------



## Steve (Jul 24, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> The players themselves were part of the cover-up.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I mean the kids now.  Kids next year.  Don't sanction the program into the future.  Fire everyone involved.  Prosecute them if warranted.


----------



## granfire (Jul 24, 2012)

Steve said:


> I mean the kids now.  Kids next year.  Don't sanction the program into the future.  Fire everyone involved.  Prosecute them if warranted.



That is how you sanction the alumni and administrators: $$$


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 24, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I'm not doubting you, but could you provide some links to show that as true?
> 
> If the team players helped in the cover-up, I hope they get their day in court. Accessory after the fact deserves punishment as well. That is why what happened to Paterno is OK if he tried to cover things up as well. But if they knew nothing, and did not actively try to cover up what they knew was going on, why should they be punished? I just don't know if there was a good way to punish the school and not have (innocent) players suffer as well.
> 
> Moreover, any former students that can be shown (in a court of law, or maybe even in a thorough unassailable investigation) to have actively participated in cover-up(s), if they are playing for professional teams, should be gotten rid of.  That is the one thing that bothers me about Paterno.  I don't know that anything in the public domain has been proven against him.  That said, he seemed to accept his firing without a lot of complaints.



Read the report.  After the assistant coach walked in and saw a child being raped in the shower he didn't stop it he said " I slammed a locker to alert them I was here". Then he told paterno not the police what he saw.  Paterno decided he didn't want to bother the university president over the weekend so he waited until Monday to tell the university.  Then they held a board meeting and decided the honorable thing to do was not report it to the police.  That's a short version the report is very long and goes into great detail


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 24, 2012)

Steve said:


> I mean the kids now.  Kids next year.  Don't sanction the program into the future.  Fire everyone involved.  Prosecute them if warranted.



So when a team has a recruitment violation its OK to sanction the team but when the cover up child rape its not?


----------



## bluewaveschool (Jul 24, 2012)

Let me put this theory to you -

One of your close friends of say, 20 plus years, is accused by some young kid of something absolutely sick.  Something that in your mind, you could never see this friend doing.  Do you go to the police?  Remember, the assistant has said that he didn't tell JoePa what he saw in detail, not the same detail he told others.  He went to the people that are supposed to look into and take care of these things.  And when nothing happened, I would have assumed that it wasn't what it seemed, if I hadn't been given the graphic details.  

And if anyone should be deserving of being turned into the villain for not calling the police, it's the damn assistant that WITNESSED a child being abused, and didn't do the right thing for years.


----------



## granfire (Jul 24, 2012)

bluewaveschool said:


> Let me put this theory to you -
> 
> One of your close friends of say, 20 plus years, is accused by some young kid of something absolutely sick.  Something that in your mind, you could never see this friend doing.  Do you go to the police?  Remember, the assistant has said that he didn't tell JoePa what he saw in detail, not the same detail he told others.  He went to the people that are supposed to look into and take care of these things.  And when nothing happened, I would have assumed that it wasn't what it seemed, if I hadn't been given the graphic details.
> 
> And if anyone should be deserving of being turned into the villain for not calling the police, it's the damn assistant that WITNESSED a child being abused, and didn't do the right thing for years.



That's what predators count on: they build themselves up as person of respect and trust (check) pillar of the community (check) and _good_ person (double check)
and NOBODY can imagine him doing the unimaginable.


----------



## Steve (Jul 24, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> So when a team has a recruitment violation its OK to sanction the team but when the cover up child rape its not?


Are we moving on now to talk about the NCAA process?  Okay.  Sure.  I do have a problem with the sanctions idea.  The people involved should be canned and suspensions for students who are involved.  But punishing an entire student body, including students who benefit from the football or basketball teams only in terms of being able to participate in less lucrative sports or activities or research only because of the money generated by the high visibility football/basketball teams.  When a football program is sanctioned long term, it punishes the entire university, including many kids who just want a quality education who may not even have been students at the time of the infraction.  And often, the sanctions persist long after the people involved are gone.  They are often fired or resign and move on, leaving a wake of destruction in their path.


----------



## Steve (Jul 24, 2012)

bluewaveschool said:


> Let me put this theory to you -
> 
> One of your close friends of say, 20 plus years, is accused by some young kid of something absolutely sick.  Something that in your mind, you could never see this friend doing.  Do you go to the police?  Remember, the assistant has said that he didn't tell JoePa what he saw in detail, not the same detail he told others.  He went to the people that are supposed to look into and take care of these things.  And when nothing happened, I would have assumed that it wasn't what it seemed, if I hadn't been given the graphic details.
> 
> And if anyone should be deserving of being turned into the villain for not calling the police, it's the damn assistant that WITNESSED a child being abused, and didn't do the right thing for years.


While this may not meet the legal definition of the term, there is a moral duty to act on the part of everyone involved.  If someone accuses your close friend of something absolutely sick, you have a duty to investigate the situation completely and report it to the authorities if it is an accusation that crosses the line from administrative to criminal.  Some situations are gray and complex.  This isn't one of them.  JoePa had a clear obligation to act and he did not.


----------



## WC_lun (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't like sanctions that effect students that had nothing to do with the abuse or its cover up.  Those students are only guilty of having the bad luck to pick Penn state as thier college.  Punish the guilty for sure.  Anyone who had anything to do with covering up the abuse should lose thier job, thier pension, and face criminal charges.  So I don't like the idea of removing those wins, but I can definitley support removing JoePa's statue from the campus.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jul 24, 2012)

Steve said:


> While this may not meet the legal definition of the term, there is a moral duty to act on the part of everyone involved.  If someone accuses your close friend of something absolutely sick, you have a duty to investigate the situation completely and report it to the authorities if it is an accusation that crosses the line from administrative to criminal.  Some situations are gray and complex.  This isn't one of them.  JoePa had a clear obligation to act and he did not.



And that's something I just don't understand.  Why didn't all of these people who knew, say something?  What motivation would any of these people have to engage in this cover-up?  People keep saying football was the reason, but I don't buy it.  Football is just a g-d game!

Also, I don't understand why the government can't just prosecute everyone involved.  Why punish the school itself?  Shouldn't all of the people involved be held legally and civilly liable?  Its almost as if the focus is being shifted to the school so individuals can escape notice.


----------



## WC_lun (Jul 24, 2012)

Football at that level is not just a game.  It is money for the university and lots of it.  That does not excuse those guilty of covering it up, but the game itself is not the reason for the cover up.  The NCAA's response anf punishment has nothing to do with the government.  It was to be expected that the NCAA would hand down harsh penalties.  They want to make an example of Penn State, so that anyone else at another school thinking of pulling anything similiar will see it is going to be worse for the school in the long run to cover up wrong doing.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jul 24, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> Football at that level is not just a game.  It is money for the university and lots of it.  That does not excuse those guilty of covering it up, but the game itself is not the reason for the cover up.  The NCAA's response anf punishment has nothing to do with the government.  It was to be expected that the NCAA would hand down harsh penalties.  They want to make an example of Penn State, so that anyone else at another school thinking of pulling anything similiar will see it is going to be worse for the school in the long run to cover up wrong doing.



Let me see if I can articulate my thought a little clearer. I don't think football could be a motivating reason for so many people to risk so much to cover this up. This was probably a child rape/prostitution ring. It wouldn't surprise me if Sandusky was pimping out boys to wealthy pedo donors. There is no way Sandusky got away with this for so long and with so many people knowing without it going DEEP.

That said, think about what is being said between the lines with the NCAA's punishments. Football is being blamed for the cover-up. The program needs to be punished so other programs won't cover up something like this...for football.

Sorry, no, this is just another cover-up. Everyone involved needs to be arrested. Victims need to sue for damages. If the University goes bankrupt, so be it. That would be justice and THAT would send a message to the sick pedo rings out there.


----------



## elder999 (Jul 24, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Sorry, no, this is just another cover-up. Everyone involved needs to be arrested. Victims need to sue for damages. If the University goes bankrupt, so be it. That would be justice and THAT would send a message to the sick pedo rings out there.



Then there's this:



> Philadelphia Church Official Sentenced to at Least 3 Years in Prison
> Msgr. William J. Lynn, the first Roman Catholic official in the United States to be convicted of covering up sexual abuses by priests under his supervision, was sentenced to three to six years in prison on Tuesday.


----------



## punisher73 (Jul 24, 2012)

Steve said:


> Are we moving on now to talk about the NCAA process? Okay. Sure. I do have a problem with the sanctions idea. The people involved should be canned and suspensions for students who are involved. But punishing an entire student body, including students who benefit from the football or basketball teams only in terms of being able to participate in less lucrative sports or activities or research only because of the money generated by the high visibility football/basketball teams. When a football program is sanctioned long term, it punishes the entire university, including many kids who just want a quality education who may not even have been students at the time of the infraction. And often, the sanctions persist long after the people involved are gone. They are often fired or resign and move on, leaving a wake of destruction in their path.



I think this is the problem, seperating the two. PSU's sanctions are for the football program only and does not include all their sports programs. 1) Can not play in any post season game for 4 years 2) Scholarships are dropped from 25 to 15 and 3) ANY player can transfer to another school and play immediately.

I just don't see the point in wiping off 111 wins that happened and everyone knows they happened. It's stupid and serves no purpose to what happened.

As far as anyone involved, I agree, they should be fired and prosecuted.  I'm not a JoePa fan and not a PSU fan before this.  But, the sceptic in me wonders why none of this was brought out before he died.  Was it to still protect him, or is it easier to throw him under the bus since he's dead and they can't go after him.

What's really f-ed up is that Sandusky is still paid his retirement from PSU!


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 24, 2012)

Would the cover up have happened if it were a science teacher?  I doubt it.  It happened because the football team makes the school over 60 million a year in profits.  Recruiting is huge business and any slight black eye can effect future classes and future profits.  So in order to save the program they tried to hide it.  Penn state football is the 4 the most profitable football program in the country that's the motivation to cover it up.  So that's why the football program was punished.  Your not punishing the current athletes they still get to play or they can transfer without penalty to a new school to play.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jul 24, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Would the cover up have happened if it were a science teacher?  I doubt it.  It happened because the football team makes the school over 60 million a year in profits.  Recruiting is huge business and any slight black eye can effect future classes and future profits.  So in order to save the program they tried to hide it.  Penn state football is the 4 the most profitable football program in the country that's the motivation to cover it up.  So that's why the football program was punished.  Your not punishing the current athletes they still get to play or they can transfer without penalty to a new school to play.



That is so.  But what bothers me is that even if they had covered up what had happened, why did they allow it to keep happening? as they seem to have done from earlier reporting.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 24, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> That is so.  But what bothers me is that even if they had covered up what had happened, why did they allow it to keep happening? as they seem to have done from earlier reporting.



Because once you hide it once you know your wrong and they didn't want to get in trouble.  Kinda like the one lie turns to 2 lies which turns into 3 lies ect ect.  When they caught him in the shower he didn't even try to get the kid to safety he just slammed a locker and walked out.  How does anyone do that.  How do you leave a kid and not save him


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 24, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I personally would feel better if the investigation were published, or given some credibility beyond Mr. Freeh said so.  I don't mean anything against him, but what he is reported to have said, and on what established evidence, is different than what some, such as the media, or those accused, might want to verify or take issue with.


The Freeh Report; it's 267 pages.

A few bits from the Executive Summary and other introductory portions follow:


> No  party  interfered  with,  or  attempted  to  influence,  the  findings  in  this  report.   The  Special  Investigative  Counsel  revealed  this  report  and  the  findings  herein  to  the  Board  of  Trustees  and  the  general  public  at  the  same  time.    No  advance  copy  was  provided  to  the  Board  or  to  any  other  person  outside  of  the  Special  Investigative  Counsel's team, and the work product was not shared with anyone who was not part of  the Special Investigative Counsel's team.





> The most saddening finding by the Special Investigative Counsel is the total and  consistent disregard by the most senior leaders at Penn State for the safety and welfare  of  Sandusky's  child  victims.





> Four  of  the  most  powerful  people  at  The  Pennsylvania  State  University  -  President  Graham  B.  Spanier,  Senior  Vice  President-Finance  and  Business  Gary  C.  Schultz,  Athletic  Director  Timothy  M.  Curley  and  Head  Football  Coach  Joseph  V.  Paterno - failed to protect against a child sexual predator harming children for over a  decade.    These  men  concealed  Sandusky's  activities  from  the  Board  of  Trustees,  the  University  community  and  authorities.    They  exhibited  a  striking  lack  of  empathy  for  Sandusky's victims by failing to inquire as to their safety and well-being, especially by  not  attempting  to  determine  the  identity  of  the  child  who  Sandusky  assaulted  in  the  Lasch Building in 2001.  Further, they exposed this child to additional harm by alerting Sandusky, who was the only one who knew the child's identity, of what McQueary saw  in the shower on the night of February 9, 2001.    These individuals, unchecked by  the  Board  of  Trustees that did not  perform its  oversight  duties,  empowered  Sandusky  to  attract  potential  victims  to  the  campus  and  football  events  by  allowing  him  to  have  continued,  unrestricted  and  unsupervised  access  to  the  University's  facilities  and  affiliation  with  the  University's  prominent  football  program.    Indeed,  that  continued  access  provided  Sandusky  with  the  very  currency  that  enabled  him  to  attract  his  victims.    Some  coaches,  administrators  and  football program staff members ignored the red  flags of Sandusky's behaviors and  no  one warned the public about him





> Spanier,  Schultz,  Paterno  and  Curley  gave  the  following  reasons  for  taking  no  action  to  identify  the  February 9,  2001  child  victim  and  for  not  reporting  Sandusky  to  the authorities:  ? Through counsel, Curley and Schultz stated that the "humane" thing to do in  2001 was to carefully and responsibly assess the best way to handle vague but troubling  allegations.    According  to  their  counsel,  these  men  were  good  people trying to do their best to make the right decisions.2
> ? Paterno told a reporter that "I didn't know exactly how to handle it and I was  afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure  was.    So  I  backed  away  and  turned  it  over  to  some  other  people,  people  I  thought would have a little more expertise than I did.  It didn't work out that  way."3
> ? Spanier said, in his interview with the Special Investigative Counsel, that he  never heard a report from anyone that Sandusky was engaged in any sexual  abuse  of  children.    He  also  said  that  if  he  had  known  or  suspected  that  Sandusky was abusing children, he would have been the first to intervene.4  Taking  into  account  the  available  witness  statements  and  evidence,  the  Special  Investigative Counsel finds that it is more reasonable to conclude that, in order to avoid  the  consequences  of  bad  publicity,  the  most  powerful  leaders  at  the  University  -  Spanier,  Schultz,  Paterno  and  Curley  -  repeatedly  concealed  critical  facts  relating  to  Sandusky's  child  abuse  from  the  authorities,  the  University's  Board  of  Trustees,  the  Penn State community, and the public at large.  The  avoidance  of  the  consequences  of  bad  publicity  is  the  most  significant,  but  not the only, cause for this failure to protect child victims and report to authorities.  The  investigation also revealed:
> ? A striking lack of empathy for child abuse victims by the most senior leaders  of the University.  A failure by the Board to exercise its oversight functions in 1998 and 2001 by  not  having  regular  reporting  procedures  or  committee  structures  in  place  to  ensure disclosure to the Board of major risks to the University.
> ...


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 24, 2012)

In other words -- everything seems to suggest that somewhere along the way, the football program and Joe Paterno became more important than the children that got abused.  

The sanctions seem reasonable to me.  They need to be big enough and serious enough to make it clear to any other school that they cannot let this sort of thing happen again.

And I want to see the campus and local police authorities that failed to investigate some of the reports along the way investigated themselves, and, if appropriate, prosecuted.  They failed to protect children.  To save a freakin' football program some embarrassment, apparently.


----------



## Tgace (Jul 24, 2012)

When college sports started raking in millions in profits (the $60 mil fine is rumored to be ONE years profit from football)...wasn't the stage set for cover ups like this?

Ive never been a huge sports fan (Id rather do than "fan"), but when that much cash is tied to one school program you have nothing but trouble brewing. $60 mill a year and are tuition bills getting any less? Doubt it.


----------



## Master Dan (Jul 24, 2012)

Money wise there is already games set up without the bowl that nets $350 million so $60 million does not hurt that much what does good is the message to all universities to have zero tolerance of this issue to bad it does not work for the Olympics bad record there in many sports. The civil suits will probably top 500 million given the bench mark of the Catholic church settlements


----------



## ks - learning to fly (Jul 25, 2012)

This is from the 'Business Insider' web-page:   Before he passed away, Paterno said he "backed away and turned [the case] over  to some other people," and that he "didn't know exactly how to handle [the  situation]." He added that he was "afraid to do something that might jeopardize  [university procedure]."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/did-...-the-penn-state-cover-up-2012-7#ixzz21bz9KYDn

This is and was a terribly unfortunate situation....but to trample on a man's reputation because he did what he thought he should do and then to be caught in the middle of a scandal - not of his own doing - but because of the actions of another is wrong. Sandusky was the criminal...leave JoePa alone and let him rest in peace.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 25, 2012)

ks - learning to fly said:


> This is from the 'Business Insider' web-page:   Before he passed away, Paterno said he "backed away and turned [the case] over  to some other people," and that he "didn't know exactly how to handle [the  situation]." He added that he was "afraid to do something that might jeopardize  [university procedure]."
> 
> Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/did-...-the-penn-state-cover-up-2012-7#ixzz21bz9KYDn
> 
> This is and was a terribly unfortunate situation....but to trample on a man's reputation because he did what he thought he should do and then to be caught in the middle of a scandal - not of his own doing - but because of the actions of another is wrong. Sandusky was the criminal...leave JoePa alone and let him rest in peace.



Any person that's told about a "sexual act" between a grown man and a kid in a shower and his first thought is I dont want to mess up anyone's weekend so I'll wait until Monday to tell anyone is not a man in my book.  
The report also had emails from university president saying after talking with Joe we decided the honorable thing to do is not to report the incident at this time.  He could have stopped this and choose not to he deserves no rest.


----------



## WC_lun (Jul 25, 2012)

Joe Paterno preached to his football team to do the right thing, especially when it is difficult to do.  That was one of the reason football players chose to go to Penn State.  when it came time for Mr Paterno to practice what he preached, showing his players an example of his preaching, he failed miserably and kids got abused because of it.  No one destroyed Joe Paterno's reputation but Joe Paterno.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 25, 2012)

ks - learning to fly said:


> This is from the 'Business Insider' web-page:   Before he passed away, Paterno said he "backed away and turned [the case] over  to some other people," and that he "didn't know exactly how to handle [the  situation]." He added that he was "afraid to do something that might jeopardize  [university procedure]."
> 
> Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/did-...-the-penn-state-cover-up-2012-7#ixzz21bz9KYDn
> 
> This is and was a terribly unfortunate situation....but to trample on a man's reputation because he did what he thought he should do and then to be caught in the middle of a scandal - not of his own doing - but because of the actions of another is wrong. Sandusky was the criminal...leave JoePa alone and let him rest in peace.



Everything clearly points to his understanding that there was at the very least a major concern, and he failed to act effectively on it.  As head coach, he is responsible for the culture that effectively made people afraid to come forward and report it.  I'd be more willing to give him a break had he, for example, made it absolutely clear to all the staff that under no circumstances was Sandusky to be allowed to be alone with kids.  Sandusky WAS the criminal; Paterno enabled him.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jul 25, 2012)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobil...candal-rumors-sandusky-pimping_n_1086099.html

Here's an article on the subject I brought up before. Sandusky was pimping out little boys?


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jul 25, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> Let me see if I can articulate my thought a little clearer. I don't think football could be a motivating reason for so many people to risk so much to cover this up. This was probably a child rape/prostitution ring. It wouldn't surprise me if Sandusky was pimping out boys to wealthy pedo donors. There is no way Sandusky got away with this for so long and with so many people knowing without it going DEEP.
> 
> That said, think about what is being said between the lines with the NCAA's punishments. Football is being blamed for the cover-up. The program needs to be punished so other programs won't cover up something like this...for football.
> 
> Sorry, no, this is just another cover-up. Everyone involved needs to be arrested. Victims need to sue for damages. If the University goes bankrupt, so be it. That would be justice and THAT would send a message to the sick pedo rings out there.



That's an interesting supposition.  It does seem that people who engage in sexual activities that are not accepted by the majority, tend to look for others who hold the same standards, both to share in a protected way, and to validate their activities.  However, I haven't heard anything that suggests such a possibility.



ballen0351 said:


> Because once you hide it once you know your wrong and they didn't want to get in trouble. Kinda like the one lie turns to 2 lies which turns into 3 lies ect ect. When they caught him in the shower he didn't even try to get the kid to safety he just slammed a locker and walked out. How does anyone do that. How do you leave a kid and not save him



I don't condon lack of protection.  But remember the asst coach was not a police person.  What percentage of times have you seen that in your police career?  He saw a person he may well have respected very much up to that point, and may have suspected his reporting it would cause a circling of the wagons; which in fact happened.  He could expect he might loose much favor, and even be fired.

Besides that, reportedly many football programs from grade school on, bend the rules for a lot of personal behavior and lack of study.  I don't know that to be true, but it is often alluded to.  Maybe someone here in the forums who played football from grade school to college can comment on whether or not that was true in their experience.  But if it is, how do people learn where to draw the line?



jks9199 said:


> In other words -- everything seems to suggest that somewhere along the way, the football program and Joe Paterno became more important than the children that got abused.
> 
> The sanctions seem reasonable to me. They need to be big enough and serious enough to make it clear to any other school that they cannot let this sort of thing happen again.
> 
> And I want to see the campus and local police authorities that failed to investigate some of the reports along the way investigated themselves, and, if appropriate, prosecuted. They failed to protect children. To save a freakin' football program some embarrassment, apparently.



I can't and won't argue with any of that.  But it isn't just the football program.  Higher education is a business, and they wish to survive and grow as a business.  Many businesses could be expected to react the same way to protect the "brand."  It isn't right, but it is done.

What always amazes me is how often people or institutions attempt to cover things up, when there are so many high-profile examples of things coming out after all, and the extra attention given when it is discovered there has not only been an offense, but a cover up.



ks - learning to fly said:


> This is from the 'Business Insider' web-page: Before he passed away, Paterno said he "backed away and turned [the case] over to some other people," and that he "didn't know exactly how to handle [the situation]." He added that he was "*afraid to do something that might jeopardize [university procedure]*."
> 
> Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/did-...-the-penn-state-cover-up-2012-7#ixzz21bz9KYDn
> 
> This is and was a terribly unfortunate situation....but to trample on a man's reputation because he did what he thought he should do and then to be caught in the middle of a scandal - not of his own doing - but because of the actions of another is wrong. Sandusky was the criminal...leave JoePa alone and let him rest in peace.



The bolded portion could be accepted so as to protect the ability to find the truth and successfully prosecute.  But after a certain point, even if that were true, one must be seen as continuing to push for a proper investigation which gathers sufficient facts to prove or disprove, or even say there isn't enough evidence to come to a conclusion.  Apparently, Joe Paterno did not do that.  If that is the case, how can he be defended?

And I find it hard to believe he did not know of the Cleary Act.  Colleges and Universities tend to be pretty proficient at ensuring staff and faculty are aware of such things.  It's another part of business survival; being able to show due diligence in advising all of laws that must be complied with.  Paterno's problem arises from how much he should have pushed to ensure something was being done about the allegation.  At some point in time it would seem proper that he should have made inquiries and took steps to protect the college by prohibiting Sandusky from coming on campus, or from bringing young boys on campus, or requiring he have adult supervision if he did.


----------



## sfs982000 (Jul 25, 2012)

Steve said:


> If the administration on the team knowingly covered this up, my personal opinion is that they correctly stripped the college of any official record, and they should clean house completely. Every single one of them should be fired. After that, I would say the NAACP shouldn't penalize the kids. Hire new staff and let them play ball.



I totally agree with you on this Steve.  The players to our knowledge had no part in the cover up and shouldn't be punished for it.


----------



## Steve (Jul 25, 2012)

ks - learning to fly said:


> This is from the 'Business Insider' web-page:   Before he passed away, Paterno said he "backed away and turned [the case] over  to some other people," and that he "didn't know exactly how to handle [the  situation]." He added that he was "afraid to do something that might jeopardize  [university procedure]."
> 
> Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/did-...-the-penn-state-cover-up-2012-7#ixzz21bz9KYDn
> 
> This is and was a terribly unfortunate situation....but to trample on a man's reputation because he did what he thought he should do and then to be caught in the middle of a scandal - not of his own doing - but because of the actions of another is wrong. Sandusky was the criminal...leave JoePa alone and let him rest in peace.


For most rational adults, an instinctive protective impulse kicks in when you see or hear about a child in peril.  While some may react more strongly than others, most sane, rational, responsible adults would REACT.  I still contend that he had a duty to act and he failed the child in question _and every child who was molested after that child.  _He's as responsible as the getaway driver in a bank robbery.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jul 25, 2012)

Here are more creepy connections that start to connect Sandusky with other sick pedo-rings around the country.

http://www.reddirtreport.com/Story.aspx/23022



> LINCOLN, Neb. -- Lawyer John DeCamp is in his 70s, but two recent events put the author of _The Franklin Cover-Up_ right back in the media spotlight.
> 
> DeCamp, a former state senator and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran, unraveled the Penn State child-sex scandal while investigating the Omaha child-pornography, child-prostitution ring that made him an icon.



Dekamp uncovered some sick stuff in Nebraska.



> &#8220;One of Sandusky&#8217;s contacts was [here in Omaha],&#8221; DeCamp said. &#8220;Somehow those Pennysylvania people knew about it from my book; they said &#8216;you brought it up in your book.&#8217;&#8221;
> 
> DeCamp&#8217;s next media attention could come in the form of an ABC News _20/20_ special.
> 
> ...



This has to go way beyond football.  I can't see anyone who isn't totally corrupted covering this up for any other reason.  If this is true, I wonder how they got to Paterno?


----------



## elder999 (Jul 25, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Then there's this:




In case no one missed the significance of this event-which took place in the same state-I have a couple of questions.

Here we have a priest-a bishop-of the Catholic church, sentenced to prison for covering up pedophile priests.

How has the church been penalized?

What individuals that covered up Snndusky's activities-and that's what they did-have been sentenced?


----------



## Tgace (Jul 25, 2012)

elder999 said:


> In case no one missed the significance of this event-which took place in the same state-I have a couple of questions.
> 
> Here we have a priest-a bishop-of the Catholic church, sentenced to prison for covering up pedophile priests.
> 
> ...



What authority does the gvt have to penalize the Church? Rome is outside the federal jurisdiction Im presuming....


----------



## elder999 (Jul 25, 2012)

Tgace said:


> What authority does the gvt have to penalize the Church? Rome is outside the federal jurisdiction Im presuming....




Enough authority to send a bishop to jail.

Enough authority to force the Church to pay in civil suits-in fact, suits brought about by victims of pedophile priests have cost the Catholic church in the United States more than a billion dollars in penalties alone, and caused several diocese to file for bankruptcy. 

Viewed in that light, the penalties against Penn State have been somewhat less than severe, so far......too bad for the football players, but the good ones won't have any trouble getting spots elsewhere, and the others can still go to Penn.....


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 25, 2012)

elder999 said:


> In case no one missed the significance of this event-which took place in the same state-I have a couple of questions.
> 
> Here we have a priest-a bishop-of the Catholic church, sentenced to prison for covering up pedophile priests.
> 
> ...



Individual priests have been prosecuted.  I don't know if any bishops have been prosecuted for conspiracy, though I seem to recall a mention to that effect in the news recently.  The Church has also taken actions against some of the bishops and priests.

It's important to note that, so far, only Sandusky has been prosecuted and punished by the government.  The NCAA is not the government, and their punishments against Penn State and Joe Paterno are essentially private/non-government actions.  Also, I think I remember someone specifically mentioning the Catholic Church and making sure nothing like that happens in the NCAA as being a goal of the punishment.


----------



## WC_lun (Jul 25, 2012)

I cannot find an article on it, but there was a Catholic church cardinal (I believe was his rank) here in KC that was prosecuted for covering it up.  I remember it because it was from the same parish my mother and step father were married in.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 26, 2012)

How does a sports team at an educational establishment manage to make so much money? I found the amounts staggering, are they playing professionally?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jul 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> How does a sports team at an educational establishment manage to make so much money? I found the amounts staggering, are they playing professionally?



Advertising from sponsors and merchendise sales.  College football is KING in places like PA and in the South.  Its nothing to have over 100k people show up to a college game and MILLIONS watch them every Sat.


----------



## WC_lun (Jul 26, 2012)

No Tez, they aren't professioal   They get money from ticket sales, booster contributions, but particularly television rights.  If a team is good enough to make it to a bowl game, that is a lot of television proceeds.  If it is a major bowl game, that is just ungodly amounts of money.


----------



## Wo Fat (Jul 27, 2012)

The stripping of Paterno's wins seems someone gratuitous.  The proper penalty would have been a suspension of football activities--including games.  One season for every year that Paterno (and others) knew about Sandusky's crimes and failed to report them.


----------

