# Canada?  What the heck do they know?



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 6, 2009)

Recent article in Newsweek "World View - Fareed Zakaria : Worthwhile Canadian Initiative"
http://www.newsweek.com/id/183670

Made the following interesting observations.


Canada alone in the industrialized world, has not faced a single bank failure, calls for bailouts or government intervention in the financial or mortgage sectors
In 2008, the World Economic Forum ranked Canada's banking system the healthiest in the world. America's ranked 40th, Britain's 44th.
The Toronto Dominion Bank, for example, was the 15th-largest bank in North America one year ago. Now it is the fifth-largest. It hasn't grown in size; the others have all shrunk.
Over the past 15 years, as the United States and Europe loosened regulations on their financial industries, the Canadians refused to follow suit, seeing the old rules as useful shock absorbers.
Canadian banks are typically leveraged at 18 to 1compared with U.S. banks at 26 to 1 and European banks at a frightening 61 to 1.
Home prices are down 25 percent in the United States, but only half as much in Canada.
Sixty-eight percent of Americans own their own homes. And the rate of Canadian homeownership? It's 68.4 percent.
Unlike our own insolvent Social Security, its health-care system is cheaper than America's by far (accounting for 9.7 percent of GDP, versus 15.2 percent here), and yet does better on all major indexes.
Life expectancy in Canada is 81 years, versus 78 in the United States;
"healthy life expectancy" is 72 years, versus 69.
American car companies have moved so many jobs to Canada to take advantage of lower health-care costs that since 2004, Ontario and not Michigan has been North America's largest car-producing region.
The U.S. currently has a brain-dead immigration system. We issue a small number of work visas and green cards, turning away from our shores thousands of talented students who want to stay and work here. Canada, by contrast, has no limit on the number of skilled migrants who can move to the country. They can apply on their own for a Canadian Skilled Worker Visa, which allows them to become perfectly legal "permanent residents" in Canadano need for a sponsoring employer, or even a job.
Maybe they know something our own Socialistically inclined overlords missed, eh?


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## Sukerkin (Mar 6, 2009)

I concur on the prudence of the Canadian financiers and industrialists.

However, what has caused the current problems in the 'West' has not been socialism, it is the effects of unfettered, capitalist, greed that we are enduring.


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## exile (Mar 6, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> I concur on the prudence of the Canadian financiers and industrialists.
> 
> However, what has caused the current problems in the 'West' has not been socialism, it is the effects of unfettered, capitalist, greed that we are enduring.



Mark's right about Canada&#8212;and remember, Canada has had fully socialized medicine since the old CCF and Tommy Douglas. And TD is revered by both left _and_ right in Canada. Who is Tommy Douglas, you ask?



> He was voted "The Greatest Canadian" of all time in a nationally televised contest organized by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in 2004.



Check his life story here. What this country needs isn't a good .05$ cigar, it's a dozen Tommy Douglases. 

Cowboy financial irrationality is foreign to the Canadian cultural personality, I think. People in Canada don't mind spending money, in the form of taxes, if they are sure it's an investment in something that will be socially and economically productive. It comes from the fundamentally cooperative ethic that I've noticed everywhere in Canada&#8212;not 'I'm all right, Jack&#8212;screw _you_', but more the 'bread cast upon the waters' perspective: life was very, very tough in the forests, prairies and fishing outports, and you never knew when you were going to need help from others to get by; so you gave help when it was needed. If you didn't collect, that was OK; your kid or grandkids would. And if that language seems to have religious/spiritual overtones, it's not surprising: Douglas himself was a Babtist minister, and his social democratic principles were a reflection, ultimately, of his religious convictions. He embodies, I think, just what it is that Canadians know, in their bones.

It's not the wildest or most flashy place in the world, but it's one of the most decent and civil to live in.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 6, 2009)

100% wrong Mark.

the curent problems in America's economy all stem from ONE thing

the housing market

the housing market got hurt because of one thing. Democrats FORCED banks to give loans to poor people who couldnt pay for them

why did they do this? I will get to that in a second.

Other financial orgs bought up those mortages not knowing they were worthless. So alot of companies essentially bought junk bonds.

now, why did the democrats force banks to give out mortages to people that couldnt pay for them?

a SOCIALIST idea that home ownership is a right. (also so they could say look, vote for us,we got you a house.)

so SOCIALISM is the root of the current problem, and that idiot Obama pursuing a SOCIALIST agenda is making it worse everyday.



Sukerkin said:


> I concur on the prudence of the Canadian financiers and industrialists.
> 
> However, what has caused the current problems in the 'West' has not been socialism, it is the effects of unfettered, capitalist, greed that we are enduring.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> the curent problems in America's economy all stem from ONE thing
> 
> the housing market



No, absolutely not.  The current crisis is a credit crisis, which has the effect it has because the banks and investment houses are overleveraged to such an absurd degree.  Their massive debt could only be propped up with easy credit.  No easy credit, and they can't make their debt payments.  Poof, they go the way of Lehman or AIG.

The housing contraction was the initial spark that started the cascade and tightened credit.  However, if it wasn't housing, it would have been something else.  The foundation was unstable, and it only took a small shock to send the institutions teetering.  Look at the example here on the Canadian banking system to see what happens when the banking system remains more conservative instead of taking massive unsupported risks.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> 100% wrong Mark.
> 
> the curent problems in America's economy all stem from ONE thing
> 
> ...


Of course.  It's the democrats fault.  Just change the lyrics from Blame Canada! to Blame Democrats!  I wish everything were so simple!  

Bob, there are things we can learn from the Canadians, particularly in the area of health care.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 6, 2009)

Here's the $100 question.

What's the tax situation in Canada that pays for the social programs like?
Income tax property tax, and sales tax are the big 3 I think.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Recent article in Newsweek "World View - Fareed Zakaria : Worthwhile Canadian Initiative"
> http://www.newsweek.com/id/183670
> 
> Made the following interesting observations.
> ...




Canada tends to fare favourably in international comparisons. Periodically, reports are published saying that we have the best in country in which to live. Having only visited two other countries, I'm disinclined tell people I live in the bestest country.

PM Harper was talking about our banking system on CNN's GPS last Sunday and said, essentially, what I would say: Our government watches our banks, so major screw-ups are rare, but there really is no such thing as a sub-prime market. Mortgage seekers go to a bank or trust company. Depending on credit ratings, a buyer might have to go to a mortgage broker. Depending on the down payment a home buyer is able to raise, that buy might have to have the mortgage ensured with Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

Notwithstanding our watchful nature, it is possible for homebuyer to get their fingers burned. Our bank offered us twice as much as we felt comfortable borrowing. Had we done it their way, we'd have been screwed, after both getting laid off about two years later.

Even here in Shrangrila, _buyer beware._


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## elder999 (Mar 6, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Here's the $100 question.
> 
> What's the tax situation in Canada that pays for the social programs like?
> Income tax property tax, and sales tax are the big 3 I think.


 
The Canadian government derives most of their funding from income tax. You can read about Canada's income tax  here.

It's also worth pointing out that, at just over 33 million, Canada's population is roughly 3 million less than that of California.This is especially noteworthy in consideration of health care.


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## Carol (Mar 6, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> The housing contraction was the initial spark that started the cascade and tightened credit.



Agreed.



> The housing contraction was the initial spark that started the cascade and tightened credit. However, if it wasn't housing, it would have been something else. The foundation was unstable, and it only took a small shock to send the institutions teetering.



Do you really think so?  I don't know.   I'm not so sure that what we saw was a small shock.  We got through the 9/11 attacks and the haywire those played on the economy without seeing an impact like this on the housing market.  Yes the market did go down, but it didn't crash the way it has.

A few years ago I read a very detailed piece in The Economist that was called something like The Two Houses That Hold Up The World.  The article went in to a lot of detail about how the housing market drives the North American economy and the European economy.  Which...drives the rest of the world (hence the title).  The article basically described varied (positive) impact that the housing market has in our economy, from good paying jobs (that cant be outsourced) to quality of life.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Here's the $100 question.
> 
> What's the tax situation in Canada that pays for the social programs like?
> Income tax property tax, and sales tax are the big 3 I think.


 
Sales tax is Provincial, currently RTS is 8% in Ontario. That excludes books or printed matter, unless I'm mistaken.
http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/english/taxes/rst/

Trivia: The Province of Alberta had no sales tax for decades -- I don't what the status is now. Oil revenues.

Federal Goods and Services Tax is a creation of the Brian Mulroney Tory government in 1991. Currently it stands at 5%. It was very controversial, although the govenment of the day insisted it was not an additional tax, but a folding in of existing taxes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_(Canada)

The implementation of the tax was interesting. GST applies to postage and so we became, to my knowledge, the first country to tax stamps. The GST was also applied to printed matter (which was a traditional no-no) in this country. This has hurt Canadian publishing. Another little quirk, the gov't made a variety of determinations about what is taxable. Tampons became classified as cosmetic rather than related to health and hygene, so they were taxed.

I'll dig out more on income and property tax. These are controversial here as elsewhere.

G


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## Empty Hands (Mar 6, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Do you really think so?  I don't know.



I think so.  The situation was fundamentally unstable.  Anyone who called attention to the problem, such as risk management departments in the companies themselves, were ignored.  All it took to touch off the cascade was a few days of tightened credit.  A few days is all it took to start making companies like AIG unable to meet their debt payments, and start to go under after only a few days.  Remember also, mortgages alone do not make up the troubled assets that underlie the reason for decreased lending. No one really knows what was in all those CDO's, or what they are worth.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2009)

I drive from Detroit to Windsor all the time.  Windsor neighborhoods are so nice - Detroit's you could die in.  They're just across the river from each other.

On the other hand, I met a man in Canada recently who was getting around on one of those 'scooter' devices because he needs hip replacements.  He's on a list.  He got the scooter because the list is 4 years long. He told me how much better he thinks the US system is - he'd have had his new hips almost immediately.  He's in pain most of the time.  Some health care system.

I like Canada a lot.  Won't move there - my guns would be illegal.  That's a show-stopper for me.  Besides, they have a Queen, even if she is just a figurehead.  The bended knee is not one of my traditions.


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## elder999 (Mar 6, 2009)

I like Canada a lot as well....

My wife has family there. My dad went to Trinity College in Winnipeg, Manitoba-it seems like alot of his best stories started, _"In Canada..."_. It was, for many, the last stop on the Underground Railroad....on th eother thread about "places to flee to," Canada was a consideration....

....on the other hand, Dad came back, my wife's folks kept dual citizenship and voted for Obama, and my family has called the U.S. home since....well, since before it was the U.S.



			
				Bill Mattocks said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I met a man in Canada recently who was getting around on one of those 'scooter' devices because he needs hip replacements. *He's on a list*. He got the scooter because the list is 4 years long. He told me how much better he thinks the US system is - *he'd have had his new hips almost immediately*. He's in pain most of the time. *Some health care system.*
> 
> Won't move there - *my guns would be illegal. That's a show-stopper for me*. Besides, they have a Queen, even if she is just a figurehead. The bended knee is not one of my traditions



What he said...:lol:

Back on track, though-their apparent financial state might also have something to do with their low population.....


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Besides, they have a Queen, even if she is just a figurehead. The bended knee is not one of my traditions.


 
Nor mine. My parents were Monarchists; I'm not. It's pretty much as simple as that around here. It's a tradition that's run its course. Some people still cleave to the Monarcy; I don't.  

The Queen is technically the head of state. Her picture's on the money, but she doesn't come around much. Her representatives are appointed not by the home office but by the PM and the Provincial Premiers. It's been this way since 1867. When Queen Elizabeth passes on the reigns to Prince William, I suspect there be some pop idol interest, and that will be the end of it here. To all intents and purposes, it's a bicycle monarchy here.

Our constitution resides here, not in GB. Canada has strong historical, neighbourly ties with the UK. I haven't heard anyone sing _God Save the Queen_ since I was a kid.

No offense to my cousins across the pond.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> To all intents and purposes, it's a bicycle monarchy here.



I know, I know.  It's just something that would bug me.  Hard to explain, something deep and personal.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> On the other hand, I met a man in Canada recently who was getting around on one of those 'scooter' devices because he needs hip replacements. He's on a list. He got the scooter because the list is 4 years long. He told me how much better he thinks the US system is - he'd have had his new hips almost immediately. He's in pain most of the time. Some health care system.


 
Annecdotally, this is quite possible. I know two people who got their hip surgery in a year. Both my parents survived cancer in Ontario hospitals. On the other hand, my son waited six months for an MRI after a fall from a horse. (Ten miles each way to school uphill in a snow storm.) My doctor keeps telling me I'm too heavy -- some health care. Someone's always getting screwed someplace.

I hear Canadians who've never lived in the US talk about how great health care is there. They seldom take the bold step of actually moving south. Americans are always telling me how my health care system works.

Health *care* in Canada and the US is very good. The issue is how its funded and insured.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I know, I know. It's just something that would bug me. Hard to explain, something deep and personal.


 
No problem. I think it's an institution that is gradualizing its way out. As much as I reject, I'm glad that we don't actually want to have a big to-do about it. For me it's like being an agnostic -- I don't have to win anyone to my side, but they best not push theirs on me.


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I drive from Detroit to Windsor all the time. Windsor neighborhoods are so nice - Detroit's you could die in. They're just across the river from each other.
> 
> On the other hand, I met a man in Canada recently who was getting around on one of those 'scooter' devices because he needs hip replacements. He's on a list. He got the scooter because the list is 4 years long. He told me how much better he thinks the US system is - he'd have had his new hips almost immediately. He's in pain most of the time. Some health care system.
> 
> I like Canada a lot. Won't move there - my guns would be illegal. That's a show-stopper for me. Besides, they have a Queen, even if she is just a figurehead. The bended knee is not one of my traditions.


 
I hear stories like this all of the time....it makes me wonder how many of them are true.
My grandfather was 79 and needed hip replacement.......took 2 weeks to get him in.......didnt cost him a dime.
The same grandfather at age 70 went in to get looked at because he had a strange back ache; they took an x-ray and sent him on his way. 
The radiologist found a tumour almost the size of a baseball on his kidney. They booked the surgery before they even called him.......when they couldn't reach him, they sent the police out looking for him.
All this didnt cost him a cent out of pocket.

Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad......if you need life saving surgery.....you will get life saving surgery......and the thought of having to mortgage your house to save a loved one never enters your head.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2009)

BlackCatBonz said:


> I hear stories like this all of the time....it makes me wonder how many of them are true.



Well, *I'm not lying* about what the man told me, and he was definitely using the scooter when I met him.  If he was lying about needing hip replacement and having to wait to get it, I don't know to what purpose.  He sure seemed to think US health care was better, that's for sure.



> Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad......if you need life saving surgery.....you will get life saving surgery......and the thought of having to mortgage your house to save a loved one never enters your head.



I wasn't trying to say that one system was better than the other, but noting that whilst I would have assumed Canadians would tend to prefer Canadian health care, I met at least one man who surprised me by asserting the opposite.  As to mortgaging my house - I have insurance, so the chances of that are slim.  If I were to become unemployed, then yes, it might be a problem.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> Annecdotally, this is quite possible. I know two people who got their hip surgery in a year. Both my parents survived cancer in Ontario hospitals. On the other hand, my son waited six months for an MRI after a fall from a horse. (Ten miles each way to school uphill in a snow storm.) My doctor keeps telling me I'm too heavy -- some health care. Someone's always getting screwed someplace.
> 
> I hear Canadians who've never lived in the US talk about how great health care is there. They seldom take the bold step of actually moving south. Americans are always telling me how my health care system works.
> 
> Health *care* in Canada and the US is very good. The issue is how its funded and insured.


Health care in the US is very bad by any independent standard.  We spend more for less than anyone else in the world.  Our emergency care is top notch, though.  If I'm going to get hit by a car, there's no place I'd rather be.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As to mortgaging my house - I have insurance, so the chances of that are slim.



Don't count on it.  Most health insurance companies have entire departments devoted to finding reasons to deny claims.  They pay performance bonuses based on number of claims refused.  The sicker you are, the more you cost, the greater incentive to find a reason to deny your claim.

God help you if you have a "pre-existing condition", the illness or it's treatment falls outside the scope of the coverage (particularly with "experimental" treatments), or you go over your limits.  One policy I had had a $500,000 lifetime limit.  You could go through that in a few months with something like cancer.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2009)

Health insurance may have problems in the USA.  But I believe the quality of health care in the USA is very high.  When I've had to work outside the US in the past, I've always purchased repatriation insurance.  Whether I get hit by a bus or fall ill from some inner daemon while outside the USA, I want a quick ride home on a fast jet to see US doctors.  But to each, his own.


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## Nomad (Mar 6, 2009)

As a transplanted Canadian who's been living in California for 8 years, and whose father was both a physician in Canada and the US (for a short time) and also worked for OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) for many years, I think I have a reasonable perspective on health care in both countries.

On Health Care... both the US and Canada have something to learn from each other, and neither are ideal.

Canada has universal health care which comes out of the tax base.  The provincial and federal governments have agencies that set fees for physicians on a yearly basis and act to police doctors who try to cheat the system.  This keeps overall costs comparatively low.  The downside to this is that many years of cuts or spending holds in budgets mean that some areas are chronically underserviced, and that people can end up waiting a long time for treatment, especially if they require expensive diagnostics (eg. MRI) or surgeries.  Many people have died from treatable conditions while on these type of waiting lists.

In the US, treatment tends to be quicker for those with good insurance.  The cost of health care services and insurance are MUCH MUCH higher than in Canada, to the point where a large number of people have no health care insurance whatsoever, and even those in good professions often have difficulty if they are temporarily out of work meeting these basic costs. 

The answer for both countries would be to have a multi-tier system, where universal health care does exist so that people with medical need are not turned away because of an inability to pay, but which can be upgraded with additional spending (on the part of the individual or employers as a perk) to a faster/better care standard.  In the US, costs per capita should decrease substantially, while in Canada, those with means would have an option to go beyond the minimum, which would then help support new equipment and expanded service costs for hospitals and medical groups.

Unfortunately, both countries think they have it "right", and changes to one are seen as a bow to socialism, while changes to the other are seen as catering to the privileged while letting the poor(er) languish.  There is great resistance to changes of this type on both sides of the border.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

exile said:


> People in Canada don't mind spending money, in the form of taxes, if they are sure it's an investment in something that will be socially and economically productive. It comes from the fundamentally cooperative ethic that I've noticed everywhere in Canadanot 'I'm all right, Jackscrew _you_', but more the 'bread cast upon the waters' perspective: life was very, very tough in the forests, prairies and fishing outports, and you never knew when you were going to need help from others to get by; so you gave help when it was needed. If you didn't collect, that was OK; your kid or grandkids would.



It's certainly how I feel, but I think Canadians are becoming more individualistic. I only know about the prairies and the outports because my parents told me about them -- I grew up in a big-city highrise with cable. A lot of Canadians who perceive the US model to be preferable have spent their lives with Provincially-issued health card in their wallets, and thus have never seen a doctor's bill. 

If I went to hospital tomorrow for surgery, I wouldn't necessarily see the bill. I would see a statement from my workplace-based private ensurer indicating what was paid out to put me in a semi-private room, etc, but I likely would not be shown what was paid through my provincial entitlement for the surgeon, the anaesthatist, etc.

A previous Provincial government de-listed a preponderance of eye care from OHIP. It remains a shock to my system to be handed a bill at the eye doctor's. I can certainly afford it, but it bothers me to think of people (adults in particular are impacted by this change) walking around with inadequate vision because they can't pay the eye doctor.

Similarly, when Tucker was very little we had to get his ears checked at Paducah Baptist Hospital during a visit to Kentucky. It was a slam dunk -- the doc found what we expected, an ear infection, and wrote a script. The staff were professional and kind. The hospital was gleaming. But there was this bill for $200 for five minutes of relatively uncomplicated care. We paid it and discovered that we had a lengthy wait ahead to bill our OHIP or my privated extended provider. So we left it that. 

That same care could have been provided more cheaply and efficiently -- in Ontario or Kentucky -- by a registered nurse practitioner, just as easily as an ER doc, resident, or intern. A lot of non-urgent and wellness care is being provided by doctors ($$$) than necessary. I'm not implying that docs here or there are greedy, just that they're doing things they need to be doing.

Whether you live in Canada or the US, in the year 2011 the largest graduating class in history turns 65. Immigration patterns not withstanding, we face a largish population of old folks who need care. Obviously that will create a demand for emergency medicine, paramedics, and geriatriatrists. New models of care will have to be created, such as community health centres, which have been popping up all over my province. These provide a kind of one-stop-shopping -- medicine, therapeutic massage, chiropody, social work, etc.

Such models are vital in treating low-income and transient populations who may not have a 'family doctor' and who may be inclined to let small health problems become big ones and end up in ERs. It will be interesting to see down the road if it's profitable or worthwhile for the private sector to maintain its role in providing care to Americans.

Insurance, whether it comes from a private source or the gov't, is about how care is paid for. I think to the systems work, we need to look seriously at the kind of care that is being provided and how it is being provided.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Nomad said:


> The downside to this is that many years of cuts or spending holds in budgets mean that some areas are chronically underserviced, and that people can end up waiting a long time for treatment, especially if they require expensive diagnostics (eg. MRI) or surgeries. Many people have died from treatable conditions while on these type of waiting lists.



Understood, and, sadly, accepted. The problem isn't totally our system in Canada IMO -- it's Canadians. I must confess that when my father took a fall years ago, and we had a wait for an MRI, I put him in the car, drove to Lockport, NY, and paid cash for it. Hairline fracture.

This is where I differed with Exile's analysis of our love for each other in Canada. In the last number of years, tax cutting has become the new religion. Old School Democratic Socialists like me are creaking dinosaurs:



Mike Harris and Tories swept to power in Ontario in 1995 with the promise of unprecedented cuts, which crippled school boards and health care. We're still fixing the mess. Investment in infrastructure idled for years and has not picked up enough.
His successor, Liberal Party Premier Dalton McGuinty, signed a zero-tax pledge with the Canadian taxpayers' rights group even though he was a slam dunk to win and despite the fact that he had not yet seen the books, which had been cooked by his predecessor.
Premier Ralph Klein in Alberta was similarly famous for his bootstrapping. He tried to scrimp on health costs by de-certifying union hospital cleaners and kitchen staff making less than ten bucks an hour. Cheap and mean.
Federal Liberals and Conservatives have been promising a line or reduction on taxes for years, whether or not it's feasible at the moment they promise it.
You can't get elected mayor or dog catcher if you are honest with voters and say that everything is provided has to be paid for.
So now we have a growing population that thinks universal health care and tax cuts are entitlements. Because we don't see a bill, some of my fellow Canadians think it's free.

We can fix everything you've described if we (1) are prepared to pay for it, and/or (2) very carefully manage private ensurers. As I posted above, we need to substantially re-imagine delivery if we want to be the kind of people we like to tell the world we are.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I know, I know.  It's just something that would bug me.  Hard to explain, something deep and personal.



Bill, in fairness, I should qualify some of my earlier comments about the role of monarchy up here. Since I'm a natural born citizen, I haven't had to swear an oath to God and the Queen since Cub Scouts. However, new Canadians in Citizenship Court, do have to swear loyalty to the Queen. This issue (both God and the Queen) has come up before around the swearing in of police officers. I think they've been given the choice, but I can't, well, swear to it.

My wife had a co-worker, a nurse practitioner, from Dublin. I asked her once if she was still British Subject or had opted for Canadian Citizenship. She had wanted to become a Canadian but would not swear an oath to the Queen.

Since the repatriation of the (former) British North America Act to Canada in the eighties, and the subsequent Canadian Constitution and Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it makes more sense to me to swear allegiance to our governing principles than our governors. That's how it's done south of 40.

It's good thing I don't have to re-up my citizenship. I might have to cross my fingers behind my back.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Health care in the US is very bad by any independent standard.  We spend more for less than anyone else in the world.  Our emergency care is top notch, though.  If I'm going to get hit by a car, there's no place I'd rather be.



I was commenting on the quality of medicine, not the availability of the care, nor its cost. I certainly could be wrong. I've never been treated in the US, so I should shut my mouth.


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## Ramirez (Mar 6, 2009)

Universal health care is nice but I think it is pretty useless without pharmacare which  I think the UK has.

 As for the financial institutions, they have been traditionally conservative and the regulators have historically made sure their investment, liquidity and required surplus are conservative.

 Still though,  that didn't stop Manulife from over exposing their portfolio to equities and guaranteeing returns.....which is why they went from the insurer with the strongest balance sheet in the world 6 months ago to an insurer whose stock has fallen almost 50% in a week.


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 6, 2009)

Health care is cheeper in Canada? Hahaha yea, if you don't mind waiting six months. The best doctors in Canada go to the U.S. Canada has British style health care, and thus the same faults.

Canada also lets the U.S. protect it. Thus it has a very small military.

Canada also has huge natural resources that have been untapped.

Canada's GNP for 205 was  1,052 billion
U.S. GNP for 2005 was     11,351  Billion. (but then who knows with Obama at the helm, Canada might overtake us!)

There is alot more to stats that stats.

Deaf


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## Carol (Mar 6, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> Annecdotally, this is quite possible. I know two people who got their hip surgery in a year. Both my parents survived cancer in Ontario hospitals. On the other hand, my son waited six months for an MRI after a fall from a horse. (Ten miles each way to school uphill in a snow storm.) My doctor keeps telling me I'm too heavy -- some health care. Someone's always getting screwed someplace.
> 
> I hear Canadians who've never lived in the US talk about how great health care is there. They seldom take the bold step of actually moving south. Americans are always telling me how my health care system works.



Yet we seldom take the bold step of moving north...?     (Sorry couldn't resist)



> Health *care* in Canada and the US is very good. The issue is how its funded and insured.


There's the rub.  Health care can be excellent but how good is it really if its not accessible to those that are suffering? 

Canada has built a fine health care system.  However, there are more than just anecdotal mentions of patients not being able to get in to Canadian hospitals. I mean...y'all aren't exactly going to Buffalo for the weather...or because the Falls are prettier on our side :rofl:

Some folks say The Roswell Park Cancer Institute at the University of Buffalo is under contract from Ontario Cancer Care because Ontario cannot manage all of its patients.  I don't know if that's true or not.  Whether it is or isn't....Roswell Park gets so many Canadian patients they have a dedicated web site and online resources that are just for Canadian patients...

http://www.roswellpark.ca

http://www.roswellpark.org/files/1_2_1/pubs/PP/PP%20November%202008-CA.pdf

As do other hospitals in Buffalo

http://www.kaleidahealth.org/weightloss/canadian_patients.asp


There is this story about a neonatal intensive care units in St. Catherines being full, and a mother about to deliver twins a bit earlier than expected were re-routed to Buffalo Women and Children's...and the spokesperson for the hospital indicating this was more than just a one-time thing.



> Michael P. Hughes, a spokesman for Kaleida Health, said its hospitals, which include Women and Children&#8217;s, have seen a &#8220;incremental increase&#8221; of Canadian patients over the past year and a half.
> 
> &#8220;It&#8217;s really for specialties, like orthopedics, cardiac, neuroscience,&#8221; Hughes said.


http://www.swampcrone.com/?m=200602

American hospitals are a backfill.

If America goes to a Canadian-style insurance plan...then who would backfill for America?  :idunno:

If America goes to a Canadian-style insurance plan, then who would backfill for Canada? 

This is what really gets me about the healthcare debate.  A small, but very important part of what makes Canada's socialized medicine system work is.....the privatized U.S. health care system.

Its not a one-sided relationship either.   Prescriptions are by far and away the most commonly used therapy in western medicine.   When American insurance carriers scrimp by not offering prescription coverage (or when American patients scrimp by not buying coverage) there are many that turn to Canadian pharmacies to maintain their health.  So, a small, but very important part of what makes the U.S. privatized health care system work is...Canada's socialized medicine.  

I don't think we are growing in to two separate entities, I think we may be growing more interdependent as each of our systems gets more and more strained.  Maybe one of these days our respective politicians may even find a way to solve health care problems together.  :idea:


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> My wife had a co-worker, a nurse practitioner, from Dublin. I asked her once if she was *still British Subject* or had opted for Canadian Citizenship. She had wanted to become a Canadian but would not swear an oath to the Queen.



Call me crazy, but I thought people from Dublin were Irish citizens.  I could certainly understand why they would not want to swear and oath to the Queen.

For me - I call it 'personal' because I know I can't explain it rationally in a way that makes sense to people not born in the USA.  And it's not an attempt to show how much better the USA is or anything like that.  But being born here and raised to believe we are citizens and never subjects, it gets in amongst ya.  I was raised in the heartland, on God, guns, and grits.  The swearing of an oath might be a non-event, something that one can just consider a formality and be done with it - I get that - but I can't do it.  It may be in the DNA.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Yet we seldom take the bold step of moving north...?     (Sorry couldn't resist)


 
I'm rubbing the pie off my face right now.



> Canada has built a fine health care system.  However, there are more than just anecdotal mentions of patients not being able to get in to Canadian hospitals.



There are indeed. I firmly believe that we're failing to live up to our own good values in Canada. The fault is not in our stars, but ourselves.



> I mean...y'all aren't exactly going to Buffalo for the weather...or because the Falls are prettier on our side :rofl:



Naw, it's the chicken wings at Jimmy Mac's. And we like the look of our Falls from your side.



> Some folks say The Roswell Park Cancer Institute...



Lies. All lies, I tell you. Roswell? Roswell? Area 51? Hello! No such thing. I've not heard that, and, if true, I'd like it to be all over our news and yours. Buffalo MRI advertises here. That's how I found my way to Lockport.



> A small, but very important part of what makes Canada's socialized medicine system work is.....the privatized U.S. health care system.



I accept your apology.



> (A) small, but very important part of what makes the U.S. privatized health care system work is...Canada's socialized medicine.



And you're welcome.



> Maybe one of these days our respective politicians may even find a way to solve health care problems together.  :idea:



That is intriguing and quite logical. We can't work on issues like environment in isolation. For good or for ill, there is NAFTA. But if Canada and the USA are to be partners, we're on top.


----------



## Ramirez (Mar 6, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Canada also lets the U.S. protect it. Thus it has a very small military.




Who would invade Canada except the US?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> But if Canada and the USA are to be partners, we're on top.



That's not always be the advantage it may seem at times.  I can't say that watching UFC has done me any real good, but I have picked up that much, at least.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 6, 2009)

Ramirez said:


> Who would invade Canada except the US?



Don't need the whole US.  A Boy Scout troop and maybe a couple Marines looking for beer, take maybe a weekend.  I nearly forced Montreal to its knees myself once, and that was just a visit to Rue de St Catherine looking for...uh...poutine.


----------



## Carol (Mar 6, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> But if Canada and the USA are to be partners, we're on top.



Oh Canada!


----------



## Ramirez (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> ..poutine.



 I think you have just pointed out Canada's one great advantage over the US...the strip clubs.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Call me crazy, but I thought people from Dublin were Irish citizens.  I could certainly understand why they would not want to swear and oath to the Queen.



I think you're right. My foggy brain has fudged details in haste. I probably had this conversation close to twenty years ago. Getting old.



> For me - I call it 'personal' because I know I can't explain it rationally in a way that makes sense to people not born in the USA.  And it's not an attempt to show how much better the USA is or anything like that.  But being born here and raised to believe we are citizens and never subjects, it gets in amongst ya.  I was raised in the heartland, on God, guns, and grits.  The swearing of an oath might be a non-event, something that one can just consider a formality and be done with it - I get that - but I can't do it.  It may be in the DNA.



You don't have to sell me, and I know little of God, guns, or grits. I'm simply averse to Monarchy. I think it has to do with my politics, and it's also probably generational. When I was growing up, Prince Charles was referred to as "the world's most eligible bachelor," and I thought, "Holy crap." Then it was published that Lady Diana had to take a virginity test to marry this guy (who had deflowered so many himself), and I opted out of the whole business.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Don't need the whole US.  A Boy Scout troop and maybe a couple Marines looking for beer, take maybe a weekend.



One false move, buddy, and Alaska gets it.



> I nearly forced Montreal to its knees myself once...



No you didn't. Montreal was just drunk.


----------



## Ramirez (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> *I nearly forced Montreal to its knees *myself once, and that was just a visit to Rue de St Catherine looking for...uh...poutine.



Really Bill, way too much information,  I hope you at least gave Montreal a knee pad.


----------



## Ramirez (Mar 6, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> Then it was published that Lady Diana had to take a virginity test to marry this guy (who had deflowered so many himself), and I opted out of the whole business.



  That might be true, but Bryan Adams got in there long before the wedding date....another victory for the Canadians.


----------



## Sukerkin (Mar 6, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> 100% wrong Mark.


 
I guess I'll just flush my economics degree down the toilet then - clearly a complete waste of my early life .



Twin Fist said:


> the curent problems in America's economy all stem from ONE thing
> 
> the housing market


 
I think that this is a commonly held misconception from what I've read just here on MT.  Making that claim is akin to saying that one of the chemicals in a detonator is responsible for an explosion.  In a sense it has an element of truth as it is a causal factor but it is also a falsehood as the actual damage of the explosion came from a lot of other, far more important, factors.



Twin Fist said:


> the housing market got hurt because of one thing. Democrats FORCED banks to give loans to poor people who couldnt pay for them
> 
> {snip political commentary}


 

Whilst it can be argued that everything is fundamentally Politics, if anyone is actually interested in finding out how this particular crisis was engineered, then it's worth your time to track down a splendid short series on high finance that the BBC sneaked out earlier ths year.  It manages to get the 'meat' of the matter laid out simply without having to do all the troublesome and difficult study and maths that I had to endure :lol:.

Wikipedia has a mention of it which may be a good place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_Uncovered


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 6, 2009)

Ramirez said:


> That might be true, but Bryan Adams got in there long before the wedding date....another victory for the Canadians.





So that song, Summer of '69, wasn't about 1969?

Sorry.


----------



## elder999 (Mar 6, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Making that claim is akin to saying that one of the chemicals in a detonator is responsible for an explosion. In a sense it has an element of truth as it is a causal factor but it is also a falsehood as the actual damage of the explosion came from a lot of other, far more important, factors.


 

_mmwuh?_

I'll defer to your superior knowledge of economics-which, in spite of my efforts, is just so much gobbledygook to me at times....:lol:-but your  explosive metaphor (or is it a _simile_? Does _"akin"_ take the place of _like_ and _as_?) isn't so good........


----------



## Sukerkin (Mar 6, 2009)

Does it really matter, *Elder, *if my analogy failed to hit the mark precisely? The idea I was attempting to get across was that it was a mistake to ascribe the entirety of an outcome to a trigger.

I'm just wasting the cells on my fingertips typing words on a global 'screen' that won't change the way anyone thinks one whit anyhow. The Net seems full of closed minds fronted by shouting 'mouths' just lately, making the very concept of a 'Discussion Board' a non sequitur.

That's longhand for "I give up!" by the way . I logged in hoping for a little distraction from the far more serious things I have to worry about on this side of the monitor. But it worked the other way .

Back to quietly lurking in the shadows for me {slinks off sulkily under a black cloud of depression}.


----------



## Ramirez (Mar 6, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> So that song, Summer of '69, wasn't about 1969?
> 
> Sorry.



Actually, it is just a rumour about Adams and Lady Di, but patriotic Canadian that I am , I have to give my countryman the benefit of the doubt.

  And let's not forget William Shatner....where would the US be without this fine Canadian export.

Enjoy.


----------



## Raynac (Mar 6, 2009)

First and formost I apologize for any spelling mistakes. I WILL not edit this. too much time.



Deaf Smith said:


> Canada's GNP for 205 was 1,052 billion
> U.S. GNP for 2005 was 11,351 Billion. (but then who knows with Obama at the helm, Canada might overtake us!)
> 
> 
> Deaf





			
				http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measures_of_national_income_and_output said:
			
		

> Gross domestic product (*GDP*) is defined as the "value of all final goods and services produced in a country in one year".[1] On the other hand, Gross National Product (*GNP*) is defined as the "value of all (final) goods and services produced in a country in one year by the nationals, plus income earned by its citizens abroad, minus income earned by foreigners in the country".[



It is to my understanding that while the US does have a GNP 10 times the size of our, the US's population was also roughly 10 times the size of Canada's 

and the more recent data is 
USA *GDP*: $13.84 Trillion (*2007* Est.)
Canada *GDP*: $1.432 Trillion (*2007* Est.)

anyways though, I agree with the earlier statments about the system being unstable. First of all I find it funny that the country I hear called the richest country in the world so often is 10.9 trillion in debt http://zfacts.com/p/461.html
Canadas not so bad due to the tight watch kept over the system but the way I see it, both country's have been thriving off of *controled disaster*. We increase the money supply by giving out loans using money that we do not have, its just like the wall street crash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Crash_of_1929
except that we are controling it

if you ask me we should have never told people that a recession was happening, because you know what it did!? it made people start to become tight with there money, they stopped spending. well  wouldn't you know it thats whats making the recession *worse. *thats why they are sending out those economic stimulus packages. so that people will spend them and thus keep the economy healthy... if nobody told us there was a ressesion and we kept spending blindly, yes we would still be entering a ression but we would be in alot better shape and the recession would be smaller

 Its like the banking system, your bank at anygiven moment does not have enough money to give all of their clients the money they owe them. even so banks have system going that makes it so that they can give people their money when they need it by keeping a certain ratio of money ready for their customers. *but* if everyone gets spooked into thinking their money isn't safe and decided to pull all there money out at the same time *BOOM *no more bank.

that being said It was a good system, us canadians seem to be handling the situation well using alot of neat tactics that Im learning about in an economics class to shelter us from the brunt of the recession.


----------



## exile (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I nearly forced Montreal to its knees myself once, and that was just a visit to Rue de St Catherine looking for...uh...poutine.



You were _looking_ for poutine???

Poutine fills a badly needed gap in the Canadian diet. Most folks there can't wait to miss it. And you went _looking_ for it? 

Bill, you gotta get a _grip!!!!_


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 6, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Don't need the whole US.  A Boy Scout troop and maybe a couple Marines looking for beer, take maybe a weekend.  I nearly forced Montreal to its knees myself once, and that was just a visit to Rue de St Catherine looking for...uh...poutine.





exile said:


> You were _looking_ for poutine???
> 
> Poutine fills a badly needed gap in the Canadian diet. Most folks there can't wait to miss it. And you went _looking_ for it?
> 
> Bill, you gotta get a _grip!!!!_




I was in Japan of all places and they told me I needed to order this great dish. I could not understand their accent when they said poutine. So, I had them translate items. I just smiled, and said I grew up with that as being normal staple from New England families and Canadian friends. So I went for some Sashumi (sp). I preferred eating their local run of the mill than eating an import that Icoudl pick up at home.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 6, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Recent article in Newsweek "World View - Fareed Zakaria : Worthwhile Canadian Initiative"
> http://www.newsweek.com/id/183670
> 
> Made the following interesting observations.
> ...



To answer your question at the end of your post about what do "our" overlords know or have missed, and that is they are out for their own investments. 


As to automotive and Ontario, Ontario has a long history of automotive, and in recent years the ranking of all North America Plants have many of the Canadian plants in the more efficient and also highest quality. 

The Oshawa plants for GM have had some real high rankings many gold and silver medals for quality and efficiency, and a recent award for doing it some many years in a row. 



As to European Banking many of the Euro Banks have opened up or leveraged more as part of the influence from the EU, to help investments into the underdeveloped countries. Mostly eastern European countries need the investment and loans. Recently the German Government told the EU banking that they would not loan or invest more into eastern Europe as they needed to worry about home. 


As to regulations, They are tricky some are good some are bad. But the Savings and Loans were loosened up and then the Credit Unions and Banks were partial loosened up, lead to issues in the 80's. That also had lots of impacts to real estate as well. Hmm, it seems these MBA's that are young and hot to prove themselves seem to come up with similar things that have happened in the past or let us call it history and they repeat mistakes. I wonder if MBA degrees should include a mandatory history requirement? 

Thanks for the link and the points.


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## Carol (Mar 6, 2009)

exile said:


> You were _looking_ for poutine???
> 
> Poutine fills a badly needed gap in the Canadian diet. Most folks there can't wait to miss it. And you went _looking_ for it?
> 
> Bill, you gotta get a _grip!!!!_



I'm sure there had to be at least one spot on St. Catherine's that sold poutine...


----------



## searcher (Mar 6, 2009)

Sooooo. Are we going to pull our troops back from the Middle East and go take over Canada or what?  :idunno:   I mean, it is only Canada.:lol:


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## Raynac (Mar 6, 2009)

searcher said:


> Sooooo. Are we going to pull our troops back from the Middle East and go take over Canada or what? :idunno: I mean, it is only Canada.:lol:


 *cough* war of 1812 *cough*


----------



## Ramirez (Mar 7, 2009)

searcher said:


> Sooooo. Are we going to pull our troops back from the Middle East and go take over Canada or what?  :idunno:   I mean, it is only Canada.:lol:



I doubt you could afford it,  according to the article we will own your financial institutions soon.


----------



## elder999 (Mar 7, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> Does it really matter, *Elder, *if my analogy failed to hit the mark precisely? The idea I was attempting to get across was that it was a mistake to ascribe the entirety of an outcome to a trigger.


 
Oh, and I agree with that-your _analogy_ just left a little aftertaste for me....working with explosives and all....I even "deferred to your superior knowledge of economics." Not disagreeing with you, Mark, just addled a little by how you presented it.....chalk it up to the lateness of the day..



Sukerkin said:


> I'm just wasting the cells on my fingertips typing words on a global 'screen' that won't change the way anyone thinks one whit anyhow. The Net seems full of closed minds fronted by shouting 'mouths' just lately, making the very concept of a 'Discussion Board' a non sequitur.


 
Again, I agree with you. I've been posting less out of fear of becoming one of those "shouting mouths" myself....



Sukerkin said:


> That's longhand for "I give up!" by the way .


 
Please don't-the voice of sanity is always welcome, even if it does put you in the position Tiresias, holding up a beacon in the darkness that none can see......:lol:


----------



## Sukerkin (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks for those good words, *Elder*.  I reflect them back to yourself also - I quite often learn something from your contributions that I either did not know or had not thought about in a particular way.

In retrospect, changing the analogy to something simpler and less esoteric may well have been a good course of action.  However, I was huddled under a 'real life' black cloud raining misery just on me last night ... did it show ?  

When I logged back in this morning, I did consider deleting my earlier post but in the end let it lie there as an example of what happens when you let life's woes bleed into your on-line existence {double }.  

Plus, I do feel that what I said about the current state of the Web has a certain validity - tho' I probably could have been a little less woebegone about how I phrased it :lol:.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 7, 2009)

There are always going to be partisans and reactionaries, but I think on the whole, the subject of sound money is starting to really become part of the public consciousness.  If you turn off the screaming heads on the idiot box and tune into something that isn't owned by the financial interests, you'll start to glimpse a problem that is bigger then partisan politics, bigger then any one nation's politics.  

The fundamental way that money is created is the root cause of all booms, busts, depressions, and a myriad of other financial woes.  If you stop to consider the equation (P / P + I = D, where P = principal, I = interest, and D =rate of defaults) you'll see that failure is built into the system and that holding down the rate of failure is the only thing that keeps the wheels on.  

Also, if you consider where the I in the equation goes, you'll end up facing one of the biggest frauds that has every been perpetrated upon humanity.  The legal magic that allows P to be created from nothing, creates a parasitic upper class whose entire net worth is based off of sleight of hand.  They *must* control societies bureaucracy in order to maintain this parasitism.

There will never be a leader elected in any nation who creates currency in this fashion unless the public is educated on the matter.  Bush, Obama, Democrats, and Republicans, Liberals, Tories, etc, they are all creatures of the financial interests in some aspect.  Sure, they will rearrange the deck chairs and pander to various groups, but the ship remains the same...and the ship is the Titanic.  

Canada is not immune from this.  A conservative reserve ratio of 18:1 only means that Canada's banks will be in the latter of the line of dominoes.  If her banks do happen to survive, you can expect the greedy parasitic plutocrats to jack that ratio up politically and bailout when they get to the top.  That is the lesson that history teaches us about fractional reserve banking.  Greed always trumps public interest and currencies are destroyed.  

It's only a matter of time, unless we reform the system.


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## searcher (Mar 7, 2009)

Raynac said:


> *cough* war of 1812 *cough*


 
Don't even get me started.



Ramirez said:


> I doubt you could afford it, according to the article we will own your financial institutions soon.


 
That is OK, your buddies over in England saw what a bunch of poor people with a high drive and desire can do.


----------



## Raynac (Mar 7, 2009)

Haha searcher don't take it so seriously. geez you were the one that suggested attacking us anyways 

anyways I honestly do not think canada would win in a war with the US. your population is 10 times the size of ours. each member of our population would have to kill 10 of yours. I guess the deciding factor would be who the other countries in the world sided with, if we had enought support, ya never know.  but this is all hypothetical.

because obviouly we are not going to fight. (not till you guys run out of water anyways) and even then our goverments will work somthing out because the damage on both sides of the border would be too great.


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## teekin (Mar 7, 2009)

I'll be holding a big "Welcome to Canada" sign. You want it, you can have it. 90 % of Canada is barely habitable. It belongs to the black flies and mosquitoes, it's either shifting shield or bottomless swamp ( it will swallow entire sections or road every year and the heavy equipment trying to repair it) +45 C in summer to -50 C in winter. The lucky ones who get to invade Newfoundland won't make it past the first kitchen party and their first encounter with Screach. ( or the Newfies ):lfao:
 Why fight? Most Canadians figure after one winter the Americans would pack up and go home. Those who stay would get sucked dry by the mosquitoes.:EG:
lori


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## Archangel M (Mar 7, 2009)

Just keep cranking out the beer and strip joints and we will stay on our side of the border.


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## exile (Mar 7, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> I'll be holding a big "Welcome to Canada" sign. You want it, you can have it. 90 % of Canada is barely habitable. It belongs to the black flies and mosquitoes, it's either shifting shield or bottomless swamp ( it will swallow entire sections or road every year and the heavy equipment trying to repair it) +45 C in summer to -50 C in winter. The lucky ones who get to invade Newfoundland won't make it past the first kitchen party and their first encounter with Screach. ( or the Newfies ):lfao:
> Why fight? Most Canadians figure after one winter the Americans would pack up and go home. Those who stay would get sucked dry by the mosquitoes.:EG:
> lori



Yeah, but those long, lazy mild summer twilights on the beach at English Bay in Vancouver, sitting with a nice bottle of Chateauneuf on the patio of the Hotel Sylvia looking at the Tantalus Mountains up Burrard Inlet turning all gold and purple? Hmmmm? 

...oops. Forget I said that. It's awful there, folks&#8212;don't even _think_ about the B.C. lower mainland....uhh...._polar bears!_ Yes, roaming polar bears waiting to eat you up! Think of the children! Turn back before it's too late!!!


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## Ramirez (Mar 7, 2009)

exile said:


> Yeah, but those long, lazy mild summer twilights on the beach at English Bay in Vancouver, sitting with a nice bottle of Chateuneuf on the patio of the Hotel Sylvia looking at the Tantalus Mountains up Burrard Inlet turning all gold and purple? Hmmmm?



You have mentioned that more than once....okay,  this year the vacation is in Vancouver...Hotel Sylvia.  I was in Vancouver about 13 years ago, I'll have to go back and this time you can write the agenda

 Last year it was Quebec City for me and the missus,  so far the most beautiful city I have been in, and the cuisine was incredible.


----------



## exile (Mar 7, 2009)

Ramirez said:


> You have mentioned that more than once....okay,  this year the vacation is in Vancouver...Hotel Sylvia.  I was in Vancouver about 13 years ago, I'll have to go back and this time you can write the agenda
> 
> Last year it was Quebec City for me and the missus,  so far the most beautiful city I have been in, and the cuisine was incredible.



I wish I could get back to Vancouver for a while... when my wife's parents were alive we used to go every summer for a month or two. But we haven't been for three or four years or so and I miss it....

Quebec City is lovely, a strange window to Europe in a way that Montreal just isn't. As you say, great food, and beautiful parks and public spaces... anyway, let me know when you're planning to go back to Vancouver and I'll come up with some suggestions. And if you can stay in the Hotel Sylvia, it will be enjoyable to the point of, well, _excess_. But you need to get a reservation in a year or so ahead of time, if you're planning on going in spring or summer. Fortunately, the bar doesn't require that! And Stanley Park is free...

... sigh...


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## searcher (Mar 7, 2009)

Raynac said:


> Haha searcher don't take it so seriously. geez you were the one that suggested attacking us anyways


 

Sorry, I was to lazy to put any emoticons in that post.


Doesn't really matter, eventually the North American Union will be the thing and we will all be one big dysfunctional family.


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## Raynac (Mar 8, 2009)

searcher said:


> Sorry, I was to lazy to put any emoticons in that post.
> 
> 
> Doesn't really matter, eventually the North American Union will be the thing and we will all be one big dysfunctional family.


Really!!! this calls for a group hug !!! :lol:


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Frankly, I'm just waiting patiently on the border (Windsor is technically SOUTH of me) for Global Warming to make Canada the new Illinois.

All that land...ah...and when it becomes our 51st state, there will be a lot of opportunities for the clever investor.  Good times.


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Frankly, I'm just waiting patiently on the border (Windsor is technically SOUTH of me) for Global Warming to make Canada the new Illinois.
> 
> *All that land...ah...and when it becomes our 51st state*, there will be a lot of opportunities for the clever investor. Good times.


 
Bill, that feeling you get at the thought of bowing on bended knee to a monarch is the same one we get when we hear americans say things like this........must be in our blood :cheers:


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## Steve (Mar 8, 2009)

Hey, anyone goes to Vancouver, I expect at least a call on your way through Seattle!  Sheesh! 

We like to play up the bad weather here, too, but as was said about Vancouver, the Summers are wonderful.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

BlackCatBonz said:


> Bill, that feeling you get at the thought of bowing on bended knee to a monarch is the same one we get when we hear americans say things like this........must be in our blood :cheers:


Just a teaze, cuz. :asian:


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## Dao (Mar 8, 2009)

I live in Canada and I give up on the health care system.  I do not go to the doctor, I don't need them any more.  I fought with a doctor because he refuse to have tests done on me.  He told me if I didn't like the care with him I should go the USA! People with heart attacks in Toronto can wait up to 6 hours.  Unless you're stabbed or shot you're going have to wait.  Over a million people in Ontario, Canada do not have doctors.  These walk in clinics are useless for the most part.  They don't keep a record, they don't follow up.  They get paid for each client they see, so the more they see the money they make.  Even a regular home doctor will only give you about 15 minutes at the most per visit otherwise he won't be making enough money.


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## teekin (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Frankly, I'm just waiting patiently on the border (Windsor is technically SOUTH of me) for Global Warming to make Canada the new Illinois.
> 
> *All that land...ah...and when it becomes our 51st state, there will be a lot of opportunities for the clever investor.  Good times.*



Ummmmmmm I have 120 acres of only slightly damp ( 8 months of the year) lightly tree'd land you could buy. And know where there is lots more. Within driving distance to a city.:angel: Very good MA training available in area.
lori


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 9, 2009)

Dao said:


> I live in Canada and I give up on the health care system. I do not go to the doctor, I don't need them any more. I fought with a doctor because he refuse to have tests done on me. He told me if I didn't like the care with him I should go the USA! People with heart attacks in Toronto can wait up to 6 hours. Unless you're stabbed or shot you're going have to wait. Over a million people in Ontario, Canada do not have doctors. These walk in clinics are useless for the most part. They don't keep a record, they don't follow up. They get paid for each client they see, so the more they see the money they make. Even a regular home doctor will only give you about 15 minutes at the most per visit otherwise he won't be making enough money.


 
You're right, Canada does not have enough doctors.....and it's a shame.

The idea behind the walk-in clinic is not to provide you with primary care.....that is supposed to be the job of your general physician. Getting a GP is a difficult task....considering some of them have over 2500 patients.

The idea behind the walk-in clinic is to help as many people as they can.....and it's not because they make a bucket load of cash doing it. The problem is, most people do not want to book an appointment to go and see their GP if they have the sniffles....they waste the time of a walk in clinic so the doctor there can tell them they have the sniffles and not prescribe antibiotics because they arent indicated, only to have the patient pull a medical degree out of their backside and tell them they need antibiotics.

One of the reasons our healthcare in canada has crappy aspects is from abuse of the system......people go if they get a splinter....or a splash of onion juice in their eyes. If they had to pay for those services, they would think twice about going and wasting the time that could be better served looking after sick people.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 9, 2009)

Back to banking for a minute.  I wanted to share this article and clip of Jon Stewart because I think it shows one of the major problems here in the US.

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/t...05/jon-stewart-disses-really-disses-cnbc.aspx

In this clip, Jon Stewart really goes after CNBC when one of their talking heads cancelled his appearance on his show.  The shill had made some comments about people with bad mortgages and Jon Stewart et all responded by collecting some clips from the so called experts that portrays them in a not so favorable light.  

Basically, if you consider all of those clips, the point that Stewart is making is overshadowed by something far darker.  CNBC is not just a stupid network as Stewart would have us believe.  What he inadvertently shows us is that at every step of the way, these talking heads were "wrong" and not just a little wrong, they were completely wrong.

Consider that a moment.  Consider who owns CNBC.  It's no coincidence that these talking heads are "acting" like cheerleaders for Wall Street.  THAT is their JOB.  They are NOT newscasters.  They are NOT pundits or experts.  They are walking advertisements, basically infomercials.  This is not news.  They deliberately mislead us.  How can we have a democratic society when information is controlled like this?


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## Steve (Mar 9, 2009)

Dao said:


> I live in Canada and I give up on the health care system. I do not go to the doctor, I don't need them any more. I fought with a doctor because he refuse to have tests done on me. He told me if I didn't like the care with him I should go the USA! People with heart attacks in Toronto can wait up to 6 hours. Unless you're stabbed or shot you're going have to wait. Over a million people in Ontario, Canada do not have doctors. These walk in clinics are useless for the most part. They don't keep a record, they don't follow up. They get paid for each client they see, so the more they see the money they make. Even a regular home doctor will only give you about 15 minutes at the most per visit otherwise he won't be making enough money.


That sounds about the same for the USA.  If you come down here, don't expect a lot of time to chat with a doctor.   Don't get your hopes up if you come down here.  15 minutes with a doctor would be great.


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## Steve (Mar 9, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Back to banking for a minute. I wanted to share this article and clip of Jon Stewart because I think it shows one of the major problems here in the US.
> 
> http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/t...05/jon-stewart-disses-really-disses-cnbc.aspx
> 
> ...


Agreed.  As a side note, it's interesting that guys like this, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and others will do any show but the Daily Show.  I think it's funny that they are all afraid of being exposed by a comedian.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 9, 2009)

Limbaugh rarely does tv interiews with ANYONE

Coulter will do most any show

O'Rielly has been on Stewert, and letterman, the view, etc multiple times.


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## elder999 (Mar 9, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Agreed. As a side note, it's interesting that guys like this, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and others will do any show but the Daily Show. I think it's funny that they are all afraid of being exposed by a comedian.


 
_They're all afraid of being exposed *as* a comedian._ :lfao:


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## Dao (Mar 9, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Agreed.  As a side note, it's interesting that guys like this, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and others will do any show but the Daily Show.  I think it's funny that they are all afraid of being exposed by a comedian.




I want to be exposed as a comedian!  I want to be the next Jim Carey!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vv...layList&p=B06EB1911561CB05&playnext=1&index=7



Ok never mind I don't want to be the next Jim Carey!


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## Dao (Mar 9, 2009)

BlackCatBonz said:


> You're right, Canada does not have enough doctors.....and it's a shame.
> 
> 
> The idea behind the walk-in clinic is to help as many people as they can.....and it's not because they make a bucket load of cash doing it. The problem is, most people do not want to book an appointment to go and see their GP if they have the sniffles....they waste the time of a walk in clinic so the doctor there can tell them they have the sniffles and not prescribe antibiotics because they arent indicated, only to have the patient pull a medical degree out of their backside and tell them they need antibiotics.




From what I hear they make more money in walkin clinic than as a GP.  I even argued with one.  He wouldn't do any test I required or any follow up.  This other doctor did prescribe me antibiotics which he isn't suppose to do in a walkin clinic.

I know they get paid by paid per visit.  so the faster you work and get more patients throughout the day the more money they make.  That's why they usually have a time limit with patients, both for walkin clinic or GP.  Also as a GP I hear they don't get paid for the follow up.  I don't know if that's true or not.  But going to  a walkin clinic is basically waste of time unless it's something really minor.  
If we had enough GP in Ontario there wouldn't be long wait times at the hospitals either.  I remember waiting about 8 hours at the hospital.  A person with a heart attack can wait up to 6 hours.


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## Nomad (Mar 9, 2009)

Dao said:


> If we had enough GP in Ontario there wouldn't be long wait times at the hospitals either. I remember waiting about 8 hours at the hospital. A person with a heart attack can wait up to 6 hours.


 
While this is true, an easy (although not inexpensive) way to skip to the front of the line is arriving by ambulance.  Anyone coming in on the "bus" goes to the front of the line.  So if you think you're having a heart attack, don't get your spouse to drive you to the hospital...


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## Dao (Mar 9, 2009)

Nomad people have been turned away when arriving by ambulance even if a person is having an heart attack.  Quite a few people died this way.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/1999/12/28/991228emerg.html

I don't know about the present though.  I haven't been in a hosptial for a long time nor do I even bother seeing a doctor.


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## BlackCatBonz (Mar 9, 2009)

Dao said:


> *1.From what I hear they make more money in walkin clinic than as a GP*.
> *2. I even argued with one. He wouldn't do any test I required or any follow up.*
> 
> *3.This other doctor did prescribe me antibiotics which he isn't suppose to do in a walkin clinic.*
> ...


 
First, let me preface my post by saying that I am not a physician. However I have acquaintances that are, as well as friends that work in the healthcare field. I also practice shiatsu so I get to talk to my share of hurtin people.
I numbered your post so that i could address some of the points.

1. A physician working a walk-in clinic in Canada is not making more than a GP with a practice. These are usually done after hours at a med centre or at something called a mixed practice which will have regular patients and take walk-in patients as well. Most of the time these guys are getting paid less than a plumber to cure what ails you.

2. I don't understand why patients argue with Doctors. If you need a referral then you should get one. Most people I know would just tell an arguing patient to find another doctor.

3. When someone walks into a clinic with a cold, they expect to walk out with pills.....even though they aren't indicated. We are becoming a mass medicated society facing pernicious strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria because patients insist on getting pills even when the guy with the medical degree thinks otherwise. Who told you that a doctor in a walk in clinic was prohibited from prescribing antibiotics?

4. They don't have time limits imposed......they have a limited amount of time in order to help as many people as they can and weed through the folks that show up with the sniffles or tummy aches from eating too much pizza.

5. why on earth would anyone do a job they didnt get paid for?

6. This is the problem with the walk in clinic premise. People go to a walk in clinic to get things taken care of that should be taken care of by their family physician. The idea behind the walk-in clinic is to help the people that dont have regular access to a family physician.
Ongoing needs should be taken care of by a GP. Patients expect Doctors to have some magical ability to treat them like an old friend, even when they have 2500 other patients they are trying to provide care for. Patients need to be pro-active in their own healthcare and assist doctors in providing it. If you are neglegent in looking after yourself don't expect a doctor to pull a panacea out of his butt and send you home.


7. If we had people that cared about their health enough to look after themselves the emergency rooms at hospitals could be used for.....well emergencies.
8. Anything can happen, emergency rooms deal with things in priority......emergencies first, sniffles last.


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