# rough outline of a jiu jitsu class



## nicerdicer (Jan 9, 2016)

Hey Members!

I practise a style called zen sen jitsu (german jiu jitsu). Its a hybrid style, it contains aikido, judo, karate, jiu jitsu etc. I wanted to see the similarities between german jiu jitsu and jiu jitsu. 

We basically have a few 100 techniques and we practise them, it goes something like "enemy attacks with punch, I dodge and perform a hip throw." On top of that we have rolls, falls, kick/punch combos and forms. 

So how is a jiu jitsu class outlined? do you also do a certain number of techniques and just drill them?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 9, 2016)

What kind of jujutsu/jiu-jitsu are you asking about? There a a *lot* of different styles with very different approaches.


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## nicerdicer (Jan 10, 2016)

Im talking about old school japanese jiu jitsu. The gentle style. I saw that there are different schools in the old jjj not sure how they differ. 

So how is a class outlined?  The classes from the old jjj schools cant be that different fundamentaly.


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## Buka (Jan 10, 2016)

In my experience, which is fundamental at best, is usually a formal opening, a warm up, drills, drills with an opponent, then a free style whatever.


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## nicerdicer (Jan 10, 2016)

I see. "freestlye whatever" would be either sparring (probably some kind of grappling) or random attacks where you would have to respond accordingly with the self defense techniques I suppose?


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## nicerdicer (Jan 10, 2016)

Buka said:


> In my experience, which is fundamental at best, is usually a formal opening, a warm up, drills, drills with an opponent, then a free style whatever.


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## kuniggety (Jan 11, 2016)

nicerdicer said:


> Im talking about old school japanese jiu jitsu. The gentle style. I saw that there are different schools in the old jjj not sure how they differ.
> 
> So how is a class outlined?  The classes from the old jjj schools cant be that different fundamentaly.



Since when is old school JJJ the gentle style?


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## nicerdicer (Jan 11, 2016)

kuniggety said:


> Since when is old school JJJ the gentle style?


Has nothing to do with my question


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## Tez3 (Jan 11, 2016)

nicerdicer said:


> Has nothing to do with my question


It has everything to do with the question if you don't understand that 'old school' JJJ isn't at all gentle and there's no such thing as 'gentle JJJ'


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## Chris Parker (Jan 11, 2016)

Right… 



nicerdicer said:


> Hey Members!



Hi.



nicerdicer said:


> I practise a style called zen sen jitsu (german jiu jitsu). Its a hybrid style, it contains aikido, judo, karate, jiu jitsu etc.



To be honest, no it doesn't. It draws a basic mechanical expression (techniques) from these arts, but it contains none of them. That's because the techniques are expressions of the arts, not the arts themselves… I know that sounds a bit pedantic, but it's an important thing to understand considering the questions (and some answers) presented here.



nicerdicer said:


> I wanted to see the similarities between german jiu jitsu and jiu jitsu.



Yeah… that's like asking the difference between a Ford Escort and a car… or other cars… 



nicerdicer said:


> We basically have a few 100 techniques and we practise them, it goes something like "enemy attacks with punch, I dodge and perform a hip throw." On top of that we have rolls, falls, kick/punch combos and forms.



Okay.



nicerdicer said:


> So how is a jiu jitsu class outlined? do you also do a certain number of techniques and just drill them?



Again… not that simple… you have many, many different systems that use the term "jiu-jitsu", "jujitsu", "jujutsu", and so on… and many "jujutsu" systems that don't use the term at all… ranging in age from very recent to a number of centuries old… incorporating weapons, or not… as part of a larger style or not… it could be a modern hybrid "mongrel" system (such as yours), or much closer to a classical approach… it might claim to be "just like the samurai learnt!" with no connection at all… or anything else.



nicerdicer said:


> Im talking about old school japanese jiu jitsu. The gentle style. I saw that there are different schools in the old jjj not sure how they differ.



They differ (from each other) in tactical methodology, contextual application, mindset, as well as some greater (and lesser) variation in technical approaches and curriculum. When it comes to the differences between classical systems and modern ones, take everything I've just said, and multiply it by about 10, then add huge differences in cultural understanding, as well as a grasp of historical realities… 



nicerdicer said:


> So how is a class outlined?  The classes from the old jjj schools cant be that different fundamentaly.



Sure they can… do you often serve tea in your modern classes? Then stab the guy who you're serving tea to? Just one example from just one system, and only in some lines of it… 



Buka said:


> In my experience, which is fundamental at best, is usually a formal opening, a warm up, drills, drills with an opponent, then a free style whatever.



Yeah… sorry, Buka, but that doesn't actually match much in the way of Koryu jujutsu systems (the classical, "old school" systems being referred to)… just sayin'… again, each ryu-ha would have their own methodologies and structure, however this is much more a modern, highly Judo influenced (and likely not Japanese) structure… what is found in Judo-based Western arts that are attempting to put together what they think a classical system should be… and always getting it rather badly wrong… 



nicerdicer said:


> I see. "freestlye whatever" would be either sparring (probably some kind of grappling) or random attacks where you would have to respond accordingly with the self defense techniques I suppose?



Eh, it'd depend on the school… but Koryu are dominantly kata-geiko centric in their approach… so sparring (randori, shiai) are not particularly common… especially since the advent of Judo… and these systems aren't in any way concerned with "self defence" in a modern context at all either… so no on that front as well.



kuniggety said:


> Since when is old school JJJ the gentle style?



Ha, yeah… I always kinda cringe when I see that… the kanji (as you know) is 柔… "yawara/juu/jiu/ju/jū"… and is often translated as "gentle"… but that's only part of the story. In more accurate context, it refers to "yielding"… or "avoiding meeting force"… but hardly "gentle"… ha! Again, the usage of short, sharp, pointy objects is rarely done "gently"… 



nicerdicer said:


> Has nothing to do with my question



Actually, it's fairly relevant… it shows that you don't really have much of an idea of what you're actually asking about. That's fine… but there's a lot of groundwork (ha, I see what I did there…) that needs to be done before we even get to your questions… which, honestly, can't be answered at all in vague generalities, and can only be dealt with in individual case studies.



Tez3 said:


> It has everything to do with the question if you don't understand that 'old school' JJJ isn't at all gentle and there's no such thing as 'gentle JJJ'



Nor is there even a single art that is "Japanese Jujutsu"… the term is a categorisation of many, many, many systems, with many, many, many different approaches and methodologies… as well as individual terminologies themselves!

I mean… are we asking about - Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu?
                                                 - Takeuchi Ryu Hade and Kogusoku? Torite?
                                                 - Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu?
                                                 - Shinto Ryu Yawara?
                                                 - Shibukawa Ryu?
                                                 - Sho Sho Ryu?
                                                 - Katchu Ryushin Ryu?
                                                 - Sekiguchi Shin Shin Ryu?
                                                 - Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu?
                                                 - Kito Ryu?
                                                 - Fusen Ryu?
                                                 - Araki Ryu Gunyo Kogusoku?
                                                 - Iga Ryuha Katsu Shin Ryu?
                                                 - Takagi Ryu?
                                                 - Kukishin Ryu?
                                                 - and myriad more… 

How about the different terms used for "jujutsu" and "jujutsu-like" arts?
                                                 - Jujutsu?
                                                 - Taijutsu?
                                                 - Hade?
                                                 - Goho?
                                                 - Koppo?
                                                 - Torite?
                                                 - Kogusoku?
                                                 - Te?
                                                 - Yawara?
                                                 - Ju?
                                                 - Judo? Note… not necessarily Kodokan… the term was used at least 130 years before Kano…
                                                 - Wa?
                                                 - Gyoi Dori?
                                                 - Kumi Uchi?
                                                 - Yoroi Kumite?
                                                 - Satsu?
                                                 - Saho?
                                                 - and myriad more… 

The point is that, I get your query… but the answer simply isn't one that can be given… mainly as you don't yet have the information to simply understand your own question. It's like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy… answers can be given… but have you really got a handle on what the question is in the first place? If so… the answer's 42…


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 11, 2016)

Chris pretty much covered it, but I wanted to add that if you encounter someone who claims to have studied "Japanese Jujutsu" (as opposed to Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu or something specific like that), then the odds are very good they actually studied a modern hybrid art like your own, but one where the instructors still identify with their art's Japanese ancestry even though the art in question was founded in the U.S. or Great Britain or somewhere else in the west.

To use a crude analogy, it would be like a 3rd generation Japanese-American identifying himself as "Japanese" even though he had never been to Japan, both his parents were born in the U.S., and his family tree included members from France, Canada, and the Philippines.

I won't argue with the right of the individual person (or martial arts practitioner) to identify with a certain part of their or their arts cultural heritage, but I will point out that their understanding and experience of that heritage will probably be rather different from a native to that culture.


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## nicerdicer (Jan 11, 2016)

Oh damn I didn't think it would be THAT complicated. Well thank you for sharing your wisdom Tony and Chris


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