# Muye Dobo Tongi



## Ken Ethridge (Dec 19, 2005)

I did a search to see if there were any threads that discussed this book.  I did not find any, so I hope I am not bringing up an old subject.

*Muye Dobo Tongi- *

  Has anyone read/studied it?  If so, what did you think?  Among the controversy of Korean MA history, this book seems to be the only one that most "authorities" of adverse opinions would nod their head to.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 19, 2005)

You actually beat me to this thread.  I was just reading the grandmaster's book and I came across the section where he published this work.  I can't read the hanja and I'm wondering if anyone out there has...what do you think?


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## Gemini (Dec 19, 2005)

If there has been any discussion of it, I'm not aware of it.

So now you have me curious. You seem to either know of the book, or more likely from the sound of it, have some personal knowledge of its contents. You, yourself have read it? If that's the case, please continue. I'm interested. What topics does the book cover in general terms. All Korean arts and their roots? Specific ones?


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## Makalakumu (Dec 19, 2005)

The intersting thing about this book is that it covers everything from empty hand to spear to sword to halbard.  I only know from looking at the pictures though.  That sounds so cheap, but I can't read the language.


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## stoneheart (Dec 19, 2005)

I thought Turtle Press put out an edition that was translated by Sang H. Kim?


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## ImaJayhawk (Dec 20, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I was just reading the grandmaster's book and I came across the section where he published this work. I can't read the hanja and I'm wondering if anyone out there has...what do you think?



I was just wondering which book you were reading?  Was it published by In Hyuk Suh?

Yes Turtle Press has a translated copy.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2005)

I have the translated copy from turtle press by Sang H. Kim and 
it is very good from a historical perspective. Turtle press also
put out some videos by a group of martial artists who took every
move from the origional book and video taped the movements.
These videos are also quite good and you clearly can see the
Korean, Chinese & Japanese influences in them. Go to turtle
press at: www.turtlepress.com ! Look under Korean Martial Art
Videos and specifically at Muye Eshin Saban. These are good
videos and if you like them you will love the videos on Korean
Archery, Ssireum and HaeDong Gumdo. All of them are quite 
interesting to watch. 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Miles (Dec 21, 2005)

This is a fascinating book (I'm referring to that translated by Master Sang Kim and available thru Turtle Press).  I've not read it from cover to cover, but I have read the sections on Kwon Bup (empty hand fighting) and spears.

Miles


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## Ken Ethridge (Dec 21, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> If there has been any discussion of it, I'm not aware of it.
> 
> So now you have me curious. You seem to either know of the book, or more likely from the sound of it, have some personal knowledge of its contents. You, yourself have read it? If that's the case, please continue. I'm interested. What topics does the book cover in general terms. All Korean arts and their roots? Specific ones?



I have had the translated version ( By Sang H. Kim) for a while now.  I have read the beginning thoroughly, but then skipped around to various chapters.  It is not an easy read (Can be dry).  I think the book is a treasure for any martial student, especially if your training has a Korean history.


What is contained?  In a way, yes, it does cover all Korean Martial history roots.  ..but not specifically.  It discusses the roots of Korean martial art from as far back as the 1300's.  It discusses the influence on soldiers training such as political, economic and war necessities.

I don't think that I could ever obtain an understanding of forms from this book.  Much to my disappointment since my search for the Korean Spear Sword (Hyup do) forms was partially what caused me to purchase this book in the first place.


Take care,

Ken.


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## Sipsoo Dragon (Jul 5, 2006)

I have 4 copies of the MDT, three came from Korean. One is in the original transcript, the second is translated into hangul and the third shows Korean students demonstrating all the moves but again it is in hangul. The forth book is by Sang H Kim, also there is a lot discussed in the first vol MDK TSD by grandmaster Hwang Kee.

Pil Seung

Sar Bum Nim ken Nessworthy
Shinson Tang Soo Do Association


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## Paul B (Jul 5, 2006)

Like Brian said..the reconstruction efforts are pretty cool to see. 

Sadly..I think we will never know what they *actually* were. This book is a definite must-own for any KMAist..but don't go in into it thinking it's written in a "Book of Five Rings" style..as was mentioned it's *very* dry. 

I particularly like this passage on a Kum Bup form.."Then they throw their swords away and start wrestling"..it doesn't get much better than that.:lol:


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## MBuzzy (Nov 14, 2007)

I'd like to bump this thread back up....I'm looking for some info as to the history of the book.  I know have two conflicting stories.  
I have heard that it was an attempt to collect all of the styles and techniques that were being performed in Korea at the time.

But I also recently heard that it was more of an attempt to gather the arts of other countries at the time - an encyclopedia of the enemy's knowledge.  

Does anyone know the true origin of this book?  When and where was it commissioned and for what PURPOSE?


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## exile (Nov 14, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> I'd like to bump this thread back up....I'm looking for some info as to the history of the book.  I know have two conflicting stories.
> I have heard that it was an attempt to collect all of the styles and techniques that were being performed in Korea at the time.
> 
> But I also recently heard that it was more of an attempt to gather the arts of other countries at the time - an encyclopedia of the enemy's knowledge.
> ...



Hi Craig&#8212;

The last word on the origins and purpose of the MDTJ is a comprehensive article in the 2003 volume of _Journal of Asian Martial Arts_, by a professional MA historian, Manuel Adrogué, titled `Ancient Military Manuals and Their Relation to Modern Korean Martial Arts'. It shows how the MDTJ was in effect an updating and synthesis of several previous existing Korean military manuals, all of which were in effect compendia of Chinese military technical writings. Interestingly, for the likes of you and me, Androgué shows that the empty-hand component of the MDTJ (a very small portion of the book indeed!) reveals the Korean empty-hand techniques of the time to be none other than... the Chinese `Long Fist' Chuan Fa boxing style! Virtually the whole technical content of the MDTJ was Chinese, a point also stressed in Stanley Henning's important article,`Traditional Korean Martial Arts', in the 2000 JAMA. Both authors show how this finding significantly debunks the fantasy-legend claims that documentation exists supporting a  2000 year-old indigenous Korean MA which gave rise, in direct lineal descent, to the modern Korean striking arts.


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## howard (Nov 15, 2007)

Based on what I've been able to find, I agree with Exile.  The MDTJ is essentially a translation of Chinese martial arts manuals.  The current version was completed in 1790.

There is simply very little known historical documentation of martial arts practice in ancient Korea.  That's probably one reason why a lot of the clearly fabricated histories of arts like TKD and Hapkido have persisted.


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## Butch (Nov 15, 2007)

You know what surprises me is that a book from the 1700's survives the occupation of the Japanese while some of the late 1800 and early 1900 books where trashed by them. Makes one wonder doesn't it!
Butch


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## SageGhost83 (Nov 26, 2007)

That is a very good point, Butch. It conveniently survived when even the most basic treatises concerning korean culture were wiped out by the japanese.....does make you wonder. I picked up a copy as well. I found the sword sections very intriguing, especially the fighting on horse back with dual swords - how the heck does he keep his balance while holding two swords and fighting with them? Then there was the part that featured a korean re-creation of a japanese sword method, wae gum, I believe (I'm too lazy to lean over and open the thing). If it was a cataloguing of the enemies' methods, then whoever created it was pretty damn good. You know, I have been told that traditional korean martial arts, pre-taekwondo/tang soo do, had a very chinese flavor to them. I guess that it would make sense because the two countries border each other and have exchanged so much culture over the years. Hmmm...Hanguk, Han = chinese (or at least one ethnicity of chinese), guk = people. Surely does make you think.....


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