# Wooden dummy training....



## qwksilver61 (Nov 14, 2007)

Question?I have often wondered why the Wooden Dummy tenements were not taught earlier than later? I for one wish that I possessed the complete set.My reasoning,I believe that it would help a student to progress further.
Proper positioning,balance and application.Almost like having an opponent without having one.
Is there any real reason why a person could not learn the set from someone early on?Would it be of any value?


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## geezer (Nov 14, 2007)

I guess the answer depends upon what you mean by "earlier".  Some WC systems I've had contact with teach the dummy after about three years. In WT the "true" dummy set (not exactly the version set out in Yip Chun's book) is kept back for a _very_ long time. I agree, it would be nice to see it taught sooner. There are some valid reasons for holding it back, but I know one instructor who worked pretty consistently in the system and didn't get it all, with applications, for something like 25 years! (He had learned at least one WC version early on, but it was significantly different both in movement sequence and quality or feeling). After a certain point, it sure looks like holding back like that has more to do with money than any real teaching considerations.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 15, 2007)

In the UK I know of schools who teach the dummy form straight away. In Kamon, you have to put a lot of years in before learning the dummy form

Reason? A beginner going up to a dummy will have no idea how to use energy or position. Using such a fixed 'opponent' to practice on would be detrimental in their attempt to get relaxed

Forms such as Sil Nim Tao help the practitioner understand shapes, energies and positioning

Once the practitioner has understood these concepts, the wooden dummy helps enhance that. 

I have witnessed beginners using too much wooden dummy and becoming too tense/solid when doing drills or fighting techniques


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## almost a ghost (Nov 15, 2007)

The first school I was associated with, which was unofficially a Leung Ting lineage, teaches the dummy forms after Biu Gee.

The instructor I train with now, under the Ip Ching lineage, teaches them after Chum Kiu.

I've asked my second instructor why he starts teaching the dummy after chum kiu and he stated that it ties in with the chi sao applications.


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## melry88 (Nov 15, 2007)

Ghost, may I ask who you study under?  

Thanks...


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## almost a ghost (Nov 15, 2007)

melry88 said:


> Ghost, may I ask who you study under?
> 
> Thanks...



You first


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## melry88 (Nov 15, 2007)

Sifu Tom Ross...

http://www.wcarchive.com/html/sifus/wing-chun-sifus-t.htm


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## almost a ghost (Nov 15, 2007)

I train with Eric Li in Vancouver, BC when I can get the travel time, up until 2 years ago I was studying with my Sifu in Las Vegas, NV, but he has since moved. I'm have relocated to Boston, MA a few months ago and have been looking for places, luckily there are a few ip ching lineage guys in surrounding states.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 16, 2007)

almost a ghost said:


> The first school I was associated with, which was unofficially a Leung Ting lineage, teaches the dummy forms after Biu Gee.
> 
> The instructor I train with now, under the Ip Ching lineage, teaches them after Chum Kiu.
> 
> I've asked my second instructor why he starts teaching the dummy after chum kiu and he stated that it ties in with the chi sao applications.


That's not an unrteasonable statement. That is the way that Yip Man used to train his students, but I guess it still depends on the students understanding of sil nim tao and chum kil

Dummy allows you to flow around and arms and get the stick right, but your footwork will still be left behind
Personally I think it should be done after bil jee as WT do (much as I hate to agree with anything from WT)


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## almost a ghost (Nov 16, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> That's not an unrteasonable statement. That is the way that Yip Man used to train his students, but I guess it still depends on the students understanding of sil nim tao and chum kil
> 
> Dummy allows you to flow around and arms and get the stick right, but your footwork will still be left behind
> Personally I think it should be done after bil jee as WT do (much as I hate to agree with anything from WT)



I disagree with the statement of the foot work being left behind. In Chum Kiu you are moving, during the time one studies chum kiu you can learn the foot work and then move onto the dummy which will help tighten the foot work.


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## geezer (Nov 16, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> That's not an unrteasonable statement. That is the way that Yip Man used to train his students, but I guess it still depends on the students understanding of sil nim tao and chum kil
> 
> Dummy allows you to flow around and arms and get the stick right, but your footwork will still be left behind
> Personally I think it should be done after bil jee as WT do (much as I hate to agree with anything from WT)


Funny, I don't mind agreeing with you a bit. About the dummy, there's an old saying that, "a live dummy is always better than a wooden one".  But when a student finished his basic training and went off to sart his own school, he needed the mook yang jong until he could train his students up to a high enough level.  Of course, there is much more to the dummy than that.


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## qwksilver61 (Nov 18, 2007)

Page 9 of the 116 Wooden dummy Techniques (GM Leing Ting as Tech. adviser) quotes; in the "Protractor Effect" paragraph,"such a wooden dummy will help in rectifying the delivery of movements of the driller,in the same way,as a protractor will rectify an angle.If a driller can make use of the wooden dummy to *correct his movements*,he will be able to improve rapidly.It is a pity that many followers of Wing Tsun,Chun,Ving Tsun fail to note the importance of the wooden dummy,and cannot rectify the relative positions of himself and his opponent through the help of the wooden dummy thus losing the "protractor effect" of it.The importance lies in "practicability & simplicity" of movements.One well learned and effective movement is better than several attractive but ineffective movements.


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## bully (Nov 19, 2007)

I am a beginner and was thinking about getting a dummy.

Some of the comments above are making me have second thoughts.

I have seen the dummy form on the net etc but as  a beginner i would not even try until my sifu thinks i am ready.

What i would like to use it for is basic drills training on my own, moving around the angles and doing basic blocks, punches and kicks.

What do you guys think? should i leave it and get one in a year or 2?


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 19, 2007)

almost a ghost said:


> I disagree with the statement of the foot work being left behind. In Chum Kiu you are moving, during the time one studies chum kiu you can learn the foot work and then move onto the dummy which will help tighten the foot work.


Chum kil is limited movement - teaching you the basics of how your upper half is connected to your lower half. 
Wooden dummy is counter productive to what chum kil is teaching you
It is like learning to do a wang gerk and then going to TKD at the ssame time and learning how to do a roundhouse kick
It is better to master one first and then concentrate on the other

As for bully - talk to your Sifu and ask his opinion
Personally, I find it better working on drills to start with and using partners
Dummy work should be left til after you understand wing chun to a greater degree and appreciate what each move is teaching you


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## geezer (Nov 19, 2007)

qwksilver61 said:


> Page 9 of the 116 Wooden dummy Techniques (GM Leing Ting as Tech. adviser) quotes; in the "Protractor Effect" paragraph,"such a wooden dummy will help in rectifying the delivery of movements of the driller,in the same way,as a protractor will rectify an angle.If a driller can make use of the wooden dummy to *correct his movements*,he will be able to improve rapidly.It is a pity that many followers of Wing Tsun,Chun,Ving Tsun fail to note the importance of the wooden dummy,and cannot rectify the relative positions of himself and his opponent through the help of the wooden dummy thus losing the "protractor effect" of it.The importance lies in "practicability & simplicity" of movements.One well learned and effective movement is better than several attractive but ineffective movements.


For a protractor to be of any help, you have to know the correct way to read it. The same goes for the dummy.  As for Bully's question, Kamon is right. Ask your Si-fu. Don't get a dummy and just screw around, or worse, try to learn the movements from a book.  If I were teaching agin, I would probably start dummy drills after Chum Kiu. Notice that I said _drills_, meaning practice routines.  The actual dummy form contains many more advanced movements and, like my Si-fu, I would only teach it after Biu Tze and advanced Chi-sau training.


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## almost a ghost (Nov 19, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Chum kil is limited movement - teaching you the basics of how your upper half is connected to your lower half.
> Wooden dummy is counter productive to what chum kil is teaching you
> It is like learning to do a wang gerk and then going to TKD at the ssame time and learning how to do a roundhouse kick
> It is better to master one first and then concentrate on the other



I think you missed the part about "and then move onto dummy", I wouldn't teach a student chum kiu and the dummy at the same time, just as you said it would be confusing and counter productive.

My point was that the student starts learning foot work in chum kiu, and then moves on to the more advanced work while learning the dummy forms. Other than the foot work to get back on center, I don't see any footwork that's in Bil Gee that isn't in Chum Kiu.


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## qwksilver61 (Nov 19, 2007)

Thanks for all the input!ask and you shall receive....


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## Danny T (Nov 21, 2007)

qwksilver61 said:


> Question?I have often wondered why the Wooden Dummy tenements were not taught earlier than later? I for one wish that I possessed the complete set.My reasoning,I believe that it would help a student to progress further.
> Proper positioning,balance and application.Almost like having an opponent without having one.
> Is there any real reason why a person could not learn the set from someone early on?Would it be of any value?


 
Sir, 
This is a very good question and I would answer that to learn the WD set as a beginner simply would not help. One of the worse things one can do in using the wing chun training system is to try to advance too quickly. Attempting to learn the WD set without completing SLT and Chum Kiu would be similar to attempting to learn multiplication before learning addition and subtraction. It can be done at the same time but would be far more difficult.

That said however I do use the WD for many basic drills within SLT and Chum Kiu. The dummy will make certain the arm positions are correct and does give the student instant feedback with the dummy arms as to if the direction of pressure is correct. I find the student also learns much quicker to not chase the arms by using the dummy for drills within SLT.

Something I have also found is by doing drills from CK using the dummy makes the student move the body to change angles. I find many who learn CK first and then the dummy have more concerns with angling. Not all but many tend to be more linear in their body movements and footwork rather than circular. 

I do use the Dummy earlier than many and my instructor has oftened commented on how much my students advance thru Chum Kiu at a higher level and I believe it is because they have some drill training on the dummy. Not the dummy set but drills using the dummy. Once they have most of CK down I start them on the first 4 sets of the dummy form for that is all Chum Kiu. I reserve the last 4 sets for Bil Jee for that is where they come from. Or at least in the Wing Chun system we do. Other's may differ.

Danny T


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