# Politics, Belt Rankings, and Truth



## FasterthanDeath (Jun 29, 2004)

Over the weekend a friend of mine asked me to attend a Belt testing by an organization of four people. One was a man who created his own art and his two highest belts with him, the last one was of a man who invented Tenjindo. Now for those of you who dont wonder to the other parts of the Forum , Tenjindo is a Ninjitsu based art and the original post caused for the thread to be locked. But thats neither here nor there, there was a group of men who were testing the individuals, and the first three, really good. Explained every step in everything that they did, gave the reason why they did it and variations on the "what if" factor. Now the last guy. Now before you think that I had posted this in the wrong thread let me just say that my concern is that of self-defense. He started his test and immediately they began to grill him on "wasted movements" and uneccesary movements. He didnt explain anything at all very well, I dont think he knew what he was doing. But in the area of self-defense, it was horrible. I mean we all know that noone is going to stand there and let me throw them. You have to distract them or strike first, even then it has to have some type of stunning effect or you just wont get the throw off. I would say all but 3 of his techniques had throws with no strikes or distractions or physical dynamics in them at all. So the test continued and it moved to board breaking. Oh yeah by the way he was going for his 5th dan. He could not break four boards, so he took one off and he broke three. He could not do a jumping spinning side kick to break two boards. And he did a flying jump kick to break 2 boards over three people kneeling. Now what does that have to do with self-defense? I have no idea. So it moved on to 3 vs 1 sparring. He couldnt handle it at all. Two of the people he was sparring was his students and one his wife, and he still could not handle it. Then it was 4 vs 1 and in the end he was made to tap 3 times and could not even stand up. This was 2 mins of sparring. But in the end he did recieve the promotion. Of course by a group of men headed by a good friend of his. Now here is my question to the great people of this forum, actually its multiple questions, 1. If you created an art, would you or would you not automatically be 10th dan grandmaster and founder? 2. If you are a 4th dan in your system and you cannot pass the tests that you created, should you be promoted, let alone credited? 3. If it was a fair and just group of individuals who were judging you, and they were all Grandmasters themselves, do you actually think they would promote you on your failure? It really doesnt make any sense to me. Why two "Grandmasters" would then go to a board and have themselves demoted and then recongnized by people who have never seen their art before, and if they were also Grandmasters who gave that title/rank to them? I am guessing themselves. I think in the MA world you have two types. Those who play together, and those who dont. You stick together and you can make more money and have more people supporting you than if you just stray out and teach your own art byyourself. But in that process alot of true Self-defense is lost. Please, your opinions.


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## Mark Weiser (Jun 29, 2004)

Actually there is a major problem with "founding" your own system. First in order to be considered a Grandmaster of an art it must be recongized by several current Grandmasters and given the nod of approval. Additionally there is nothing new under the sun just about every know way of how the human body reacts to puches, kicks, holds, etc... have been explored over 1000's of years. So there is nothing new to be added. The only thing that can be done is to mix and remix current Martial Arts systems.

I would suspect that this "art" you watched will die as most new movements due.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 2, 2004)

I believe in the "natural selection" theory of styles. Legitimate styles will proper because they offer useful training that people want. Fraudulant styles that have no real foundation and are headed by people with questionable backgrounds will perish for the reason stated above.
Now, if I found a new style and it stands on its own, why do I need the approval of some Grandmasters' Organization made of a mish-mosh of different arts? There are several organizations which I'm sure many are familiar with that are composed of "Grandmasters" of various styles. Believe me, I don't seek or need their approval. Won Kuk Lee, Ueshiba, and Choi didn't go to some questionable Grandmasters' Organization to get approval. They had a valuable, useful product that stood on its own.
Like a plant, a worthwhile art that is properly nurtured will grow.


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## kenpo tiger (Jul 2, 2004)

There are styles out there founded by people who were masters in others and branched out to start their own, usually a conglomeration of everything they've trained in.  I assume you are judging the merit of the style by its intrinsic value.  Some of these 'arts' are financial successes because they are marketed well and have excellent financial consortia behind them (see  McDojo thread!)

I think one also needs to examine whether it's a new art due to having a new take on an old one (the various kenpo systems) or a completely new concept.

I did some fight training with a choi le fut master.  He said:  "we all have two hands and two feet and there are only so many ways we can utilize them." :asian: KT


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## Brother John (Jul 4, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Actually there is a major problem with "founding" your own system. First in order to be considered a Grandmaster of an art it must be recongized by several current Grandmasters and given the nod of approval. Additionally there is nothing new under the sun just about every know way of how the human body reacts to puches, kicks, holds, etc... have been explored over 1000's of years. So there is nothing new to be added. The only thing that can be done is to mix and remix current Martial Arts systems.
> 
> I would suspect that this "art" you watched will die as most new movements due.
> 
> ...


Hey Mark.
Sorry to seem so antagonistic here, but I must respectfully disagree with the "There's nothing new under the sun" concept as it applies to the martial arts. This statement taken from the Old Testament is often used in this context to say that no one can create or innovate any 'new' thing. I'd say it depends on how you look at 'new'. 
The elements of body mechanics are the same for me as they were for Adam... I just own more clothes.  :uhyeah: But our four limbs, head and torso can move in a many many ways and along a myriad of planes/trajectories. These could be compared to the different elements on the periodic table. http://chemlab.pc.maricopa.edu/periodic/periodic.html
Now these are the same elements that were here when God started the whole ball a rollin... there aren't truely any new ones. (OK scientist types, there are theoretical elements...but they are RARE and by comparison virtually NON-existant) Yet by recombining them in different ways we've come up with Tylenol, Zythromax, Zoloft, Petrolium jelly, sex wax (ask a surfer), Coppertone, LSD, Rocket Fuel, Vics Vaporub, anabolic steriods, Viagra, medicinal nitroglycerin...etc.  You're a nurse, you know MANY more than these. Yet...the periodic table hasn't really changed...at least not the elements it represents.
Now: the analogy. To say that no one can create a new art is like saying that we will never again rearange the elements to form new drugs or chemicals. We can, we do...we will. 

Something to think about.
Your Brother
John


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 4, 2004)

Well when it comes to Medicine here is a bit of info for you all. Did you know that on average there are about 200 new drugs that are but out on the market each and every year LOL! 

Talk about a Pharamcist worst nightmare lol!

Anyway I was just going back to what I have been told from other teachers there are only so many ways that you can kick, punch, Grab, throw,etc.... and since human beings have been practicing MA for 1000's of years. It is only logical that everything has been tried at least once LOL!

Anyway it is difficult (pride) to acknowledge that we may or may not see new Martial Art systems coming forth. I for one have enough problems learning one system let alone trying to start a new one lol!

Anyways just as in life one is entitled to ones opinion but I will give you a quote that my Grandfather once said lol!!

"Sir you are entitled to your opinion even though you are wrong!"

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser 

Watching out for incoming rounds lol!


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## Brother John (Jul 4, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Anyways just as in life one is entitled to ones opinion but I will give you a quote that my Grandfather once said lol!!
> 
> "Sir you are entitled to your opinion even though you are wrong!"
> 
> ...


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 4, 2004)

People who get a "Sokeship" or start their own systems tend to stick togeather. Many times they cross rank each other in their respective systems.
 Should a person begiven rank if he can not pass a test , (IMHO) No.
 Can an instructor set up test requiremnt that he may not be able to pass? Mayby but it would depend on his age, physical condition, and a few other things. If he is fairly young and physicaly able he should be able to or not have the rank to give such a test. (again IMO)
 Testing in front of friends that all belong to the same click only says your friends and that it is all in show (provieding you fail misserably and still pass)


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## DavidCC (Jul 13, 2004)

ust becasue you ahve developed your own style does not mean that you should be a 10th dan.

The President of the schools where I train has developed his own "version" of Shaolin Kempo based on what he had studied : Villari, Cerio, and Goju with Lou Angel.  He has only recently attained the rank of 6th Dan, as evaluated by Sonny Gascon and Lou Angel.

The performance you describe, FTD, is embarrassing, and I would not have  passed him.  THat's just my opinion based on your description...

David


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## ppko (Jul 13, 2004)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> ust becasue you ahve developed your own style does not mean that you should be a 10th dan.
> 
> The President of the schools where I train has developed his own "version" of Shaolin Kempo based on what he had studied : Villari, Cerio, and Goju with Lou Angel. He has only recently attained the rank of 6th Dan, as evaluated by Sonny Gascon and Lou Angel.
> 
> ...


I agree when you create your own style you should not be ranked a 10th dan that comes from your instructor and usually only given to the successor of the art (depends on the art).  But when you create your own art you have the authority to rank your students up to 10th dan.

PPKO

thats my oppinion and I am sticking to it


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## loki09789 (Jul 13, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> I agree when you create your own style you should not be ranked a 10th dan that comes from your instructor and usually only given to the successor of the art (depends on the art). But when you create your own art you have the authority to rank your students up to 10th dan.
> 
> PPKO
> 
> thats my oppinion and I am sticking to it


The down side to a lack of a ruling/regulatory organization that really as executive/administrative decision is that anyone can hang a shingle and claim to be teaching/founding anything they want.  There is nothing to stop them from doing this.  People can say "Screw this, I am doing it my way" and make up titles/rank/structures as they see fit.  The question isn't really whether it should or should not be done, or is it 'allowed' because the organizations like the Sokeship council really only acknowledges/endorses those instructors/systems that petition them and they see as in depth enough and valid enough to be given their nod.  

If they don't kiss him on the forehead and bless the instructor he can still go out and promote/teach this stuff.  They are not a 'ruling body' of any kind.

The real question is what would give the new system and its founder legitimate claim to the general community (because there will always be nay sayers about EVERYTHING - especially in the ego driven community of Martial arts)?

The question isn't whether it CAN be done but how should it be done with any degree of integrity, validity and credibility?


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## ppko (Jul 14, 2004)

well said


PPKO


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## brothershaw (Aug 5, 2004)

2 Cents- 
To have a true ranking system across all styles- 
you would practically need the military to do it. 
Why? You would need an objective body to evaluate the combat, and physical value of a given style, then set up abitrary cross gradings of rank. 
Sort of like a an admiral in the navy is the equivalent of a 2 or 3 star general. 
Also like how the military looks at the designs of different companies for contracts and picks the best ( supposedly). ALso they only use the best methods for combat (supposedly). 

So I guess what I am saying is it will probably never happen. Because a chinese styleist will say a japanese stylist has no right to judge my style and so on, and so on. 
To me even the sokeship council thing is suspect. 
However regarding many styles its often said there were hundreds of jujitsu schools in japan,in samurai times. I am pretty sure alot of these schools just had variations of the same general technique. What can define a style is not the variation but the general ruling principles that it adheres to ( i.e. small circle jujitsu). 
So basically if I had a point I no longer remember what it is !!


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## MichiganTKD (Aug 7, 2004)

To my knowledge, not even Won Kuk Lee, Gen. Choi, Funakoshi, or Ueshiba gave themselves 10th Dan in anything. Anyone has the right to claim to teach their own style. Natural selection will decide whether their decision was correct or not. However, to claim 10th Dan in your own style or 9th Dan in an organization you founded smacks of insecurity and the need for personal validation. In other words, they claim 10th Dan because they need the ego trip and want people to take them seriously. It seems to me, if what you teach is valid, what rank you are wouldn't matter.
Not that I'm advocating 2nd Dans creating their own style BTW. Happens too often as it is.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 7, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I believe in the "natural selection" theory of styles. Legitimate styles will proper because they offer useful training that people want. Fraudulant styles that have no real foundation and are headed by people with questionable backgrounds will perish for the reason stated above.


WOuld be nice, but I think you made a mistake on what aspect of the style counts towards the natural selection.

You said "useful training", in reality it is "Sales & Marketing" to new AND existing students.


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## Flatlander (Aug 7, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> WOuld be nice, but I think you made a mistake on what aspect of the style counts towards the natural selection.
> 
> You said "useful training", in reality it is "Sales & Marketing" to new AND existing students.


I respectfully disagree with this.  It may seem idealistic, but the 'truths' of the arts are 'known' by those who have sought to understand.  Those who have diligently researched and become knowledgeable will propagate the art of value.  Honest students will seek these people out. 

As one becomes better trained, they become able to see past the 'sales and marketing' ploy, and gravitate towards the higher standard.  

Reputation is not bought, it is earned.


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## Ceicei (Aug 7, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree with this. It may seem idealistic, but the 'truths' of the arts are 'known' by those who have sought to understand. Those who have diligently researched and become knowledgeable will propagate the art of value. Honest students will seek these people out.
> 
> As one becomes better trained, they become able to see past the 'sales and marketing' ploy, and gravitate towards the higher standard.
> 
> Reputation is not bought, it is earned.


Solid points!!

- Ceicei


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## Eternal Beginner (Aug 8, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree with this. It may seem idealistic, but the 'truths' of the arts are 'known' by those who have sought to understand. Those who have diligently researched and become knowledgeable will propagate the art of value. Honest students will seek these people out.
> 
> As one becomes better trained, they become able to see past the 'sales and marketing' ploy, and gravitate towards the higher standard.
> 
> Reputation is not bought, it is earned.


AMEN!


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 8, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Actually there is a major problem with "founding" your own system. First in order to be considered a Grandmaster of an art it must be recongized by several current Grandmasters and given the nod of approval.



It _must_ be?

Who says?  

I recognize that there are a lot of "grandmasters" out there that are frauds, but the notion that a person must be recognized by several other grandmasters to be a grandmaster of his own system sounds a little suspect to me.  This allows for political appointments that have nothing to do with the talent of the applicant.  Endorsements of such certifications could take place without a test ever being given or a proper review of the person's credentials.

The title of "grandmaster" isn't only applied to those who start their own systems or who claim 10 dan.  Some Korean organizations recognize a grandmaster as someone of eighth or ninth dan.  

Can anyone name any reputable masters/grandmasters who started their own systems without the endorsement of other masters/grandmasters?  Feel free to nix the title of grandmaster and substitue "founder" or "soke" or whatever you like.  

We often find that the ones who deny a grandmaster's title are political antagonists of the person in question.  They alledge the person is a fraud...like many of the actual frauds out there...or say he isn't fully qualified for the credentials he claims.

Regards,


Steve


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## Flatlander (Aug 8, 2004)

Eternal Beginner said:
			
		

> AMEN!


Eternal Beginner, welcome to Martial Talk!  Help yourself to the feast of great information available in the various fora.  Should you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.  Happy posting!


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## Matt Stone (Aug 8, 2004)

It is a rare thing when someone actually "creates" something new from something old.  It is rarer still when that person refuses recognition.

The seemingly constant flow of new "grandmasters," and the regular downgrading of "grand" titles to lower belt ranks to allow for even further inflated titles for those with higher ranks is disgusting.

I've heard of a Shotokan teacher who claims a 10th dan in that art.  The fact that Funakoshi's highest ranked students are only 9th dan seems lost on him.  The multitude of soke-dokey organizations and "cross ranking" associations nearly pushes me to the edge of sanity.  It diminishes us all, and anyone who would willingly participate in their fraudulent activities should be flogged at the earliest opportunity.

Why are people constantly searching for a new belt, a wider belt, a fancier belt or more impressive sounding title?  I wear a plain, unadorned, black belt.  That's all.  When I attend someone else's classes/seminars/school activities/events/etc., I wear a plain, unadorned white belt.  What's the big deal after all?


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## Eternal Beginner (Aug 8, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Eternal Beginner, welcome to Martial Talk! Help yourself to the feast of great information available in the various fora. Should you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. Happy posting!


Thank you!


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## FasterthanDeath (Aug 9, 2004)

Well it seems that some people on the thread do not like my opinion of the events that took place in my original post which started this thread. I would like to respond with this. I completely agree with Matt Stone and thats exactly how I feel. It hurts my heart and soul to see the title of "Self-defense" be thrown around like its nothing. A eye catching title to drawn in those who do not know what "self-defense" really is. When I think of it, its a street tested series of techniques that are simple and useful to help me get away from an attack or help me to defend myself with only the necessary amount of force. With the dynamics of how the body moves and answers the questions of what happens if this happens. I like the scientific theories and proof of those theories that intrest me in martial arts. I believe that a instructor should be a scientist, a doctor, professor or a teacher of that art. With the hows and whys explained and shown. And be able to discuss and explain any other theories and or possibilities therein. To clear up any speculation, this is my opinion. And I did ask for others to express theirs on what I posted. But my intention was to bring out a problem in what I see is a growing one in the MA community. With no true governing body and only the opinions of others ruling what is useful and not useful anyone can teach anything anywhere. And call it whatever they want. I know only of one fighting art where styles are expressed fully and it is always a toss up of who is going to win in a fight. Thats boxing. And whats really sad is that those who give themselves titles and seek approval of others could never stand up to a man who only uses two weapons. His hands. I am sure you all have asked the question who could beat who. Muhammed Ali vs Bruce Lee. No hands down Bruce should win right? But its a question that requires speculation. Thats the way it should be when it comes to styles and teachings of self-defense. Equally dangerous in their own way. But its not like that. Its more like I teach you how to throw a punch and now you should be able to knock out Ali, or Bruce Lee. Its possible, but not likely. But what If I taught you how to throw a punch using all the power in your body without loss of speed and showed you why it works and how it works and how much power you could create. Now which one do you think is a better lesson? 

P.S. This is my opinion. This is how I,let me repeat, I feel. I will not say who doesnt like my opinion. But, if you figured it out, then you know why they wouldnt like it. This will be my last post on the matter because of legal reasons and I love this forum and the people on it. Even though I have had more debates than anything else. I love to hear what others think. And with that I say keep on. Thousands can take over the world, but it takes one to lead thousands to victory.Thank you.


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## Waco (Aug 9, 2004)

Perceptions change with experience.  You have what - 6 months? I was one of the instructors on the panel for the test of which you speak.  You may want to rethink expressing your personal opinions without having all of the facts.   
 This was only one of several dates for observing this testee over a 12 month period.  This particular test was performed without sufficient sleep in an unairconditioned gym at the beginning of a Texas summer (end of June).  Although we wanted to see a demonstration under total exhaustion, we did not want to go deep into the summer and risk heat stroke.  
 Previous performances under favorable conditions were very well displayed. However, I will not discuss the conditions placed on this promotion which were mentioned at the conclusion of the test and which you did not post.
  If you had questions, I would have recommended that you ask people who were involved rather than pick someone apart on the internet with uninformed assumptions. I read your previous post where you criticized an 11 year old black belt and stated that he was age 7.  That was just one of your inaccurate statements.  I got the impression that you are from a school which is competitive to the hosting instructor.  Just a guess. He has a great system, but what I like most about his students is their respect toward others.  I don't believe one of his students would post comments such as yours.
 To be a better martial artist requires one to be more intraspective. Try and put more focus on yourself rather than others.  This will benefit you greatly during your journey in the martial arts.
 I hope this helps you to understand some of what you witnessed and I wish you much success in your training, "faster than death".
Best Wishes,
Danny Passmore
www.passmoreselfdefense.com


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## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2004)

Waco said:
			
		

> I don't believe one of his students would post comments such as yours.


That is a interesting statement...

Why not?

And we lead into Chickens and Eggs...

Anyways, questioning things is a good thing, shows that a person is not just a sheep following along.

Surely you must admit that what happened would look suspect to anyone who witnessed it.


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## Flatlander (Aug 9, 2004)

Mr. Passmore, welcome to Martial Talk.  Feel free to help yourself to the various forums, and don't hesitate to ask any questions you may have.  Enjoy your stay, and happy posting!


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## Matt Stone (Aug 9, 2004)

Waco said:
			
		

> Perceptions change with experience.  You have what - 6 months?



He has 6 months of what?  From previous posts I got the impression that FTD had at least several years of training, especially given that he claims he should be referred to as a "master" of some sort...  I'm still none too clear on that point.



> I was one of the instructors on the panel for the test of which you speak.  You may want to rethink expressing your personal opinions without having all of the facts.
> This was only one of several dates for observing this testee over a 12 month period.  This particular test was performed without sufficient sleep in an unairconditioned gym at the beginning of a Texas summer (end of June).  Although we wanted to see a demonstration under total exhaustion, we did not want to go deep into the summer and risk heat stroke.



So, what precisely is the purpose of multiple tests?  Additionally, what is the purpose of testing the individual "without sufficient sleep in an unairconditioned gym at the beginning of a Texas summer?"  Did the individual(s) in question have physicals from their doctors allowing this?  I'm sure you've done your homework and made sure your liability waivers keep you safe from prosecution in the unlikely event of an accidental death due to indifference on the part of the examiners...

I understand hardship, and I understand rigorous training, but insufficient sleep and potentially injurious climactic conditions sound more like overzealousness than dedication to training.  Train smart, not hard...



> Previous performances under favorable conditions were very well displayed. However, I will not discuss the conditions placed on this promotion which were mentioned at the conclusion of the test and which you did not post.



If FTD is getting the facts wrong, or is failing to adequately represent the situation, why do you refuse to discuss the testing/promotion conditions?  I'd be curious to know what they were, especially given the fact that the individual(s) concerned had already been tested several times throughout the previous year...



> I read your previous post where you criticized an 11 year old black belt and stated that he was age 7.



At either age, what business does a child have wearing a black belt with anything other than dress pants?  Hell, I don't like 18 year olds running around with black belts, much less someone that hasn't even started puberty...



> To be a better martial artist requires one to be more intraspective. Try and put more focus on yourself rather than others.  This will benefit you greatly during your journey in the martial arts.



Being a martial artist has little to do with introspection.  You are confusing fighter with scholar or philosopher.  As for putting the focus on one's self, if you want to play ethical and moral games, or debate the philosophical ramifications of martial arts, it is the self that should be exterminated as well as any ties the self has to recognition or expression.  The self is what expresses the ego, and time has shown that the ego does little to foster the "martial artist image" so many people hold as an example of proper behavior.

Some other questions - 

What is "American Street" karate?  I wasn't aware there was American karate, nor Street karate, much less American Street karate.  I'm curious how your art, based on arts you found were less than suitable for self-defense, is somehow more suitable?

Why, if you are so dedicated to teaching self-defense, do you refuse to accept students from other schools?  Why can't they benefit from your instruction in addition to that of their own teachers?

Lastly, can you explain this paragraph taken from your website:



> *This is a very aggressive street self-defense system.  All males, age 16 and older, must provide a written character reference from their Pastor, Priest or Preacher before any information will be discussed concerning possible membership.  This is required to prevent potentially violent persons from learning the skills taught in this system.  We apologize for any inconvenience caused by such cautious pre-qualification of member candidates. The safety and lives of our neighbors and their families is too important to allow anyone to join this school just for the sake of earning a dollar.*



Aren't you discriminating against non-Christians by requiring such character references?  Isn't their word or the word of a family member sufficient evidence?

Thanks in advance for your replies.


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## Waco (Aug 9, 2004)

Yes, Andrew, I agree that questioning is good.  This is why any visiting instructor of high rank should have introduced himself upon arrival.  I'm sure he would have been recognized, invited to dinner, given a complete explanation, and been asked for comments and suggestions.  Instead, he took another path.
   If this person is so concerned, he should reach out to those involved and become part of the solution rather than gossip on the internet and be part of the problem.  A private letter to the hosting instructor or to the other testing board members (of Kung Fu San Soo and Isshinryu) would have been more appropriate.  This is why I say that one of the students would not have made such a post.  
   I know this is direct and I apologize, but I'm only responding to a dialog which I see as a direct public attack against a process in which this gentleman was not involved.  But, it's not too late.  I know William would welcome a chance to sit down over dinner and exchange knowledge and ideas, let the water go under the bridge, and make new friends.  Competing schools are not the enemy.  They compliment each other.
  Thanks for the response.
dp


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## Matt Stone (Aug 9, 2004)

Waco said:
			
		

> This is why any visiting instructor of high rank should have introduced himself upon arrival.



This must be a characteristic of Korean based martial arts...  I once taught in a school that was run by a person with a strong Korean MA background.  When I walked in before my class (his class was still going on), he stopped the class, had everyone face me and bow.  I was flabbergasted and looked around to see who had come in the door behind me...  Since then I've run into this attitude from Korean MAists that belt rank somehow means something and entitles a person to certain demonstrations of deference.

I think that a grand uber super poobah is due no more respect, deference or consideration than any other person, in fact they are in a way due less...  They should have subdued their ego by the time they've achieved such lofty ranks and would therefore no longer have any need of special displays of courtesy, would they not?



> I'm sure he would have been recognized, invited to dinner, given a complete explanation, and been asked for comments and suggestions.



Why would he be given any more explanation than anyone in the general audience?  Why cater to this one individual?  Surely others had similar questions and comments to offer?


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Aug 10, 2004)

Ok, here we go. You see FTD is a friend of mine. He has stopped posting due to the fact that some legal issues were brought up. I believe he may just stop posting here all together. I am new to this site and my friend had shown me a way to communicate to others about martial arts. I asked him on an occasion to ask people questions that I had about certain arts and situations because I am hardly home and on the net at all anymore. I know who this post is about, and I know FTD. FTD is speaking on which he saw for about 10 mins outside and the rest on video tape. I asked him to go to the belt testing because he has a good knowledge of self-defense and wanted to see a dan testing. He showed up for 10 mins and then left because it ran a little long. In fact it ran so long that I had to run out as well when it was over. With that cleared up let me say this. The comment about the 11 year old who looks like he is 7 was something we bothed discussed and both agreed with Matt Stone. I dont feel a child can achieve the rank of black belt in a self-defense system because a child does not understand the concept of self defense and hurting someone. A child will use what they are taught in anger, like an adult would, but we all know that we cannot teach a child that because they havent reached that age or mindset of understanding. Another thing brought up was the facts. I dont know who broke what and how many whats were broken, but I do have an opinion on this. What does board breaking have to do with self defense? Why should you be judge on how many boards you can break with you hand? Alot of time was focused on that and it seemed pointless. Pointless to me, and to FTD. And here is something else, if you created a system, and you are the founder, why would you go infront of a board of people to promote you for your own art? I dont get that one. Thats how I feel about it. Notice the last statement everyone. Thats how I FEEL about it. My Opinion. Now for Mr. Passmore. I dont know who you are talking to or talking about. 6 months? We have been in MA since we were kids. So I think you have him mistaken. Sorry. And as far as being from a competitive school. FTD hasnt attended his school since it closed in 1994. And no we didnt go the same school. I know him from tourney's around the metroplex. I know it sounds like I am talking for him but, I felt that as his friend I had to say my two cents. Now the performace I saw on that day. I wouldnt of passed. Because of how tired he was, and how his performance in the sparring was. It was terrible. Either you make it or you dont. Thats how test should be. But once again why was he testing for an art he created? Its a puzzle. Its a puzzle wrapped in an Enigma!! One more thing to say before I go gentlemen, As far as the man who held the test goes, I dont like him. And have heard stories from others about things that I dont like. I have had people who attended his school and then go else where to find what they were looking for. Self-Defense. Thats it. Thats my opinion. I dont need a dinner with Q&A to figure it out. Thanks.


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## Waco (Aug 10, 2004)

Thanks for your comments.  I understand completely where you're coming from.  I think you probably said a great deal to help me understand what the posting was really about when you said you don't like the host.  Now, I came on here for the sole purpose of speaking up for a friend who your friend, Mr. Death, dissed by name on the internet.  I have no intention of staying because my job keeps me too busy for chat rooms and forums.  But, I didn't want to just post my opinion and leave without giving others the chance to respond and know that I listened.  So, everyone has made good points and I have read them.  That concludes the discussion for me.  I respect your convictions as being dear to your heart, and any differences you prefer in your training and teaching are none of my business.  Have a nice life.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 10, 2004)

> stopped the class, had everyone face me and bow.


I was taught that you agknowleded a Black belt when they entered the school. However I have sen some black Belts that deliberately would come to a class late or go to another school after the class started so that everyone had to take time and bow to them. To me this is ego gone wild and the person dioing this "late entrance" should not be acknowledged at all.


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Aug 10, 2004)

Whose name was used? Who are you talking about? You might be talking about a different thread, but since your job keeps you too busy to be in chat rooms and forums then maybe you have your priorities mixed up. No one "dissed" anyone. It was someones opinion. AS THIS POST AND EVERY OTHER POST IS!!! So what if someone doesnt like another. You cant name call or bash anyone here. Its a moderated forum. But you can state your opinion!!! Whats great about this site is those who come here all the time, do so for the conversation, and debates. The original post was about organizations and the politics inside of those organizations. Why should a man have to privately ask questions and personally go to the instructers when the students do all the talking for them. MA means alot to me. It has opened doors where I didnt know that doors existed. And it has kept me alive. So If I feel that people are being scammed or paying for something they think is defense, then I can say my opinion. Its mine!! I FEEL THAT WAY!!!!! Others can disagree or agree with me. So what? Competitive schools dont compliment each other. They destroy each other. Not with fists and techniques, but with dollar signs and fees. If everyone is so hunkie-dory with each other, why not teach together? Because there is no money for YOU in it. I was at this testing and I didnt announce myself. Why? Why should I? I dont want to be part of that organization and I dont agree with what some of those in it teach. Only two things happen, either your accepted or your are blacklisted. But, I guess if your too busy.....


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 10, 2004)

Personally I train under another Senior Black Belt in another system and I do not tell other students I have a Black Belt in another form of Kenpo.  The only person that knows is the Instructor.  I would like to keep it that way due to respect for the School and the Instructor.


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## Gaidheal (Sep 27, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Why are people constantly searching for a new belt, a wider belt, a fancier belt or more impressive sounding title? I wear a plain, unadorned, black belt. That's all. When I attend someone else's classes/seminars/school activities/events/etc., I wear a plain, unadorned white belt. What's the big deal after all?


This is a man after my own heart in this regard.  Belts are not universal in their meaning; I have easily bested Black Belts (the highest I hold in a TMA is Yellow, by the way - I don't see the gradings in a TMA as very important) and equally, found myself overmatched by some who, like me, are relatively low rank colour-belts.  Belt colour does not necessarily imply skill, often it has a lot more to do with dedicated attendance.  Not a bad thing in itself...  but I hope my point is made.

As for the original question....  I probably would not use a traditional colour-belt rank system.. but assuming I did, no, I'd consider myself 'Black Belt (1st Dan)" and go from there... it is highly likely an able student could surpass me,  through being younger and fitter, more dedicated in terms of time spent actually training or even simply inately 'better'.  In such a case they should hold a higher rank than I.  Doesn't mean they tell me what to do... but it does mean they can teach me a thing or two about applying the principles and techniques that my 'art' is founded on.  Anyone not humble enough to accept that is no "Grandmaster" in the first place.

John


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## Nightwish (Oct 14, 2004)

I got a black belt, with a nice buckle, and it cost me thirty bucks, and it keeps my pants up.

OK, lets take a look at it from this prespective...Titles, belts, whatever, mean **** all ok?  The street criminal does not give a **** if your a black belt, i do not give a **** if your a black belt, and in fact, NOBODY does.  Do you know how many times i've heard popele tell me they are black belts, and when i say "ok" they ask "hey aren't you impressed?"  I say "no" and leave.

It seems that upon getting ones black belt, a HUGE ego comes along with it...and what the HELL is a grandmaster anyway?  what crap.


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## DavidCC (Oct 14, 2004)




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## TChase (Oct 14, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree with this. It may seem idealistic, but the 'truths' of the arts are 'known' by those who have sought to understand. Those who have diligently researched and become knowledgeable will propagate the art of value. Honest students will seek these people out.
> 
> As one becomes better trained, they become able to see past the 'sales and marketing' ploy, and gravitate towards the higher standard.
> 
> Reputation is not bought, it is earned.


 
Awesome comments.  I could never have said it this well.


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