# Question about karate belts



## chrispillertkd (Jul 21, 2010)

Hello, all. I am a long-time Taekwon-Do practitioner and have very limited exposure to Japanese styles. I have a question regarding stripes I see on some fairly senior karate practitioners' belts. In some Korean styles it's common to have one hash mark on the end of a black belt for each dan level (i.e., one stripe for a first dan, two for a second dan, etc.). In the ITF, rank is denoted not by hash marks but by Roman Numerals. 

My question regarding karate belts and their rank signifies is I have seen pictures of people who are listed as being very advanced dan ranks (8th or 9th) and yet they have only maybe two hash stripes on each end of the belt. I was hoping if someone could tell me a bit about this system (how the stripes line up with dan rank, if they denote teaching level rather than dan rank, if each stripe denotes a level rather than the total stripes on a single end of the belt, etc.). 

Thanks in advance.

Pax,

Chris


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 21, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Hello, all. I am a long-time Taekwon-Do practitioner and have very limited exposure to Japanese styles. I have a question regarding stripes I see on some fairly senior karate practitioners' belts. In some Korean styles it's common to have one hash mark on the end of a black belt for each dan level (i.e., one stripe for a first dan, two for a second dan, etc.). In the ITF, rank is denoted not by hash marks but by Roman Numerals.
> 
> My question regarding karate belts and their rank signifies is I have seen pictures of people who are listed as being very advanced dan ranks (8th or 9th) and yet they have only maybe two hash stripes on each end of the belt. I was hoping if someone could tell me a bit about this system (how the stripes line up with dan rank, if they denote teaching level rather than dan rank, if each stripe denotes a level rather than the total stripes on a single end of the belt, etc.).
> 
> ...



They're all different, depending on the style (or 'ryu').  It is even different from dojo to dojo sometimes.

We only use hash-marks on belts for kids.  Adults wear solid color belts.

Ours (Isshin-Ryu) are:

White
Yellow
Orange
Green
Blue
Brown (1st)
Brown (2nd)
Black (1st through 10th)

6th Dan and above black belts can wear a red belt if they have a dojo of their own.  And even some Isshin-Ryu dojos will be different than my list.

Sorry, not much consistency in Karate.


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 21, 2010)

Bill, thanks for the reply. I knew about the red belt (as well as some belts with panels of alternating colors). It would be interesting to hear why there is a color "above" black. Any idea? (In ITF Taekwon-Do black is the top color although with various dan levels, of course.)

I am thinking specifically, however, of a high ranking black belt who only has like two stripes on each end of his belt. How does a total of four stripes add up to, for example, 9th dan? Is it instead an indication of teaching level, perhaps (hanshi, renshi, etc.)?

Anyone have any clue as to what I'm talking about?

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Jul 21, 2010)

"Bling" is somewhat frowned upon in most karate groups I am familiar with, Chris.  You can look at photos on the web of high ranking sensei like Kanazawa from Shotokan or Eihachi Ota from Shorin-ryu or Morio Higaonna from Goju-ryu.  Most of the pictures will show them wearing a plain black belt or perhaps with some embroidered wording at the most.  If you'll share the name of the person you are talking about, perhaps someone can give a more specific answer.

"It would be interesting to hear why there is a color "above" black. Any  idea?"

Probably just follows the custom from judo, where 9th and 10th dans can wear a red belt.  But this custom is anything but universal in karate.  I've never seen anyone in Okinawan Goju-ryu for example wear a red belt.  (USA Goju yes.  <shudder>   )


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## Omar B (Jul 21, 2010)

I think what you are thinking of are Kenpo belts.  In Kenpo they have the same stripes for each degree, but a 5 is represented by a solid red block that is about as wide as 5 stripes would be.  So like a 6th degree black in Kenpo would look like a solid block of red then a single stripe on both ends of the belt.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 21, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Bill, thanks for the reply. I knew about the red belt (as well as some belts with panels of alternating colors). It would be interesting to hear why there is a color "above" black. Any idea? (In ITF Taekwon-Do black is the top color although with various dan levels, of course.)



At least in Isshin-Ryu, there is no rank above black belt.  The red belt is worn, but the wearer is not a 'red belt'.  They're still a black belt.  It really indicates something else.  By the way, I misspoke - it's red and white, not red only.



> I am thinking specifically, however, of a high ranking black belt who only has like two stripes on each end of his belt. How does a total of four stripes add up to, for example, 9th dan? Is it instead an indication of teaching level, perhaps (hanshi, renshi, etc.)?
> 
> Anyone have any clue as to what I'm talking about?
> 
> ...



I think it just varies a whole lot by ryu and even by organization or even dojo.  Everybody follows a basic formula, but it is all over the place.

I have been told by my dojo mates who are black belts that they have gone to competitions (Isshin-Ryu only) and have found themselves disrespected because even though they are fifth-dan black belts, they wear no hash marks and others do.  They laughed and said that other black belts kept staring at their belts and being astonished when they got their clocks cleaned in kumite by what they THOUGHT was a sho-dan, not a go-dan.

It's kind of a free-for-all.


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## dancingalone (Jul 21, 2010)

"At least in Isshin-Ryu, there is no rank above black belt.  The red belt  is worn, but the wearer is not a 'red belt'.  They're still a black  belt.  It really indicates something else.  By the way, I misspoke -  it's red and white, not red only."

I believe Angi Uezu wears such a belt in his video series.  You know him, right?  I've also seen some people wearing a black and red belt similar to the white and red belt.  It's supposed to be a lower master's belt than the white/red according to them.  

I'm a fan of keeping things simple myself.  I don't see the need to add stripes and such.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> "At least in Isshin-Ryu, there is no rank above black belt.  The red belt  is worn, but the wearer is not a 'red belt'.  They're still a black  belt.  It really indicates something else.  By the way, I misspoke -  it's red and white, not red only."
> 
> I believe Angi Uezu wears such a belt in his video series.  You know him, right?  I've also seen some people wearing a black and red belt similar to the white and red belt.  It's supposed to be a lower master's belt than the white/red according to them.
> 
> I'm a fan of keeping things simple myself.  I don't see the need to add stripes and such.



Yes, Angi wears (I am told) a red and white belt.  So does my Sensei, if he is asked to do so by his Sensei (my Sensei is 8th dan); otherwise he just wears his black belt.  But he's not a 'red' belt, he's a black belt.  The red and white belt is what he wears, not what he's called.  I probably should have worded that better, sorry.  I think the term we use for those who can wear the red-and-white belt is 'hanshi'.  Could be wrong.  Again, not universal, even within Isshin-Ryu.  Angi, for example, is not in my lineage.


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> If you'll share the name of the person you are talking about, perhaps someone can give a more specific answer.


 
He's a high ranking pangainoon/uechi Ryu stylists, although I don't know his name. You can see a picture of him here (he's on the top right column).

This is another picture of the kind of belt I was thinking of, although it's different gentleman than the one above. Notice the difference in the number of stripes on the belt, too.



> Probably just follows the custom from judo, where 9th and 10th dans can wear a red belt. But this custom is anything but universal in karate. I've never seen anyone in Okinawan Goju-ryu for example wear a red belt. (USA Goju yes. <shudder>  )


 
Interesting. Do you have any idea if the color red is symbolic of anything (the Chinese associate red with energy, for instance), or is it just a way to distinguish people of stratospheric rank from those who have merely really high rank? 

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 21, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I think what you are thinking of are Kenpo belts. In Kenpo they have the same stripes for each degree, but a 5 is represented by a solid red block that is about as wide as 5 stripes would be. So like a 6th degree black in Kenpo would look like a solid block of red then a single stripe on both ends of the belt.


 
No, I've seen those before and know how they present rank. The stripes I'm talking about are thin and usually just embroidered onto the belt like the person's name or style. They are thin stripes, not blocks (which are more like the panels on judo and some karate belts people have mentioned).

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Jul 21, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> He's a high ranking pangainoon/uechi Ryu stylists, although I don't know his name. You can see a picture of him here (he's on the top right column).



Shinyu Gushi from Uechi-ryu... Think his particular group calls their branch Pan Gai Noon, though, to respect the feelings of the Uechi family.



> This is another picture of the kind of belt I was thinking of, although it's different gentleman than the one above. Notice the difference in the number of stripes on the belt, too.



You might be onto something with the renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi designations.  Maybe this is the representation?  




> Interesting. Do you have any idea if the color red is symbolic of anything (the Chinese associate red with energy, for instance), or is it just a way to distinguish people of stratospheric rank from those who have merely really high rank?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



My understanding is that it is just the opposite of the color white.  Japan's national colors of course are white and red, and modern sports competitions usually divide into white and red teams.  Jigoru Kano continued this tradition during the judo contests he organized.  Over time, veterans of the tournaments gained higher rank and were awarded white and red panel belts, recognizing their seasoned status in these competitions.

I imagine some karate groups just lifted the red and red/white belt colors from judo for high dans.


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## Stac3y (Jul 21, 2010)

We use small stars embroidered on the end of the belt to denote black belt level (there are 7 levels.) We also have our surnames embroidered on the other end of the belt. Sounds a little "bling-y," but it's really quite subtle when you see it.

On a related note, I saw a website selling hot pink and 2 different colors of camo belts the other day. Also had a woman tell me her son was a "camo belt" in Tae Kwon Do. I refrained from asking her what the hell a camo belt means, but it was hard.


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You might be onto something with the renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi designations. Maybe this is the representation?


 
Could be. Like I said, I have very limited exposure to Japanese/Okinawan styles so that's just a guess on my part. 



> Japan's national colors of course are white and red, and modern sports competitions usually divide into white and red teams.


 
Interesting. Never thought of that before. In Taekwon-Do the colors of the competitors are red (hong) and blue (chung) which happen to be the colors of the Um-Yang symbol on the ROK flag. I wonder if those who came up with the tournament rules for the ITF had similar thoughts in mind when they decided on that.

Pax,

Chris


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## David43515 (Jul 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Shinyu Gushi from Uechi-ryu... Think his particular group calls their branch Pan Gai Noon, though, to respect the feelings of the Uechi family.


 
I know he`s been training under the founder`s son and the founder`s top deshi since the early 1950`s. He said the first belt test he ever took he was given 2nd dan. Maybe that`s why he wears it in the picture even though he`s a 8th or 9th dan now.

As for the red and white, I`m not sure about why it`s used on belts but you`re dead right about the way competitors break into red and white teams here. Judi turnaments and school atheletic days are all done that way.


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 21, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I know he`s been training under the founder`s son and the founder`s top deshi since the early 1950`s. He said the first belt test he ever took he was given 2nd dan. Maybe that`s why he wears it in the picture even though he`s a 8th or 9th dan now.


 
Could be, but the other photo I posted is of Ryuko Tomoyose who is, I believe a 10th dan Hanshi. It would be odd for him to be wearing a 3rd dan belt, I'd think!

Pax,

Chris


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## David43515 (Jul 22, 2010)

Seems odd to me that Gushi wears a 2nd dan belt too, but I`m not gonna argue with him about it.


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## dancingalone (Jul 22, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> We use small stars embroidered on the end of the belt to denote black belt level (there are 7 levels.) We also have our surnames embroidered on the other end of the belt. Sounds a little "bling-y," but it's really quite subtle when you see it.



Whatever works for you.  We can see that different groups in karate do different things.  I myself come from a fairly 'traditional' line and style so we don't have much adornment on our uniforms and belts other than a small style badge.  I do fancy a blue uniform, but <sigh> it really doesn't fit my group's culture.



> On a related note, I saw a website selling hot pink and 2 different colors of camo belts the other day. Also had a woman tell me her son was a "camo belt" in Tae Kwon Do. I refrained from asking her what the hell a camo belt means, but it was hard.



Sounds like they're ATA kids.  My niece and nephew train in an ATA dojang.  They enjoy it.  Aesthetically, I think Mr. Lee should have just picked light blue for that rank myself, instead of the camoflauge belt.


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## cdunn (Jul 22, 2010)

The panel belts are simply there to point out who the senior black belts are in a crowd, such as a seminar. Hash marks on a belt around the school may be similar. The guy with the stripes is the boss. It doesn't matter how many he has if no one else has any.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 22, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I know he`s been training under the founder`s son and the founder`s top deshi since the early 1950`s. He said the first belt test he ever took he was given 2nd dan. Maybe that`s why he wears it in the picture even though he`s a 8th or 9th dan now.
> 
> As for the red and white, I`m not sure about why it`s used on belts but you`re dead right about the way competitors break into red and white teams here. Judi turnaments and school atheletic days are all done that way.


 In several Okinawan schools they wear the stripes to represent certain ranks( 5th and 6th dan-1 stripe),( 7th and 8th dan-2 stripes), (9th and 10th dan-3 stripes) Some shorin ryu schools(matsubayashi Shorin ryu), Okinawan Kenpo and Uechi Ryu use this.  Not sure where that tradition came from. 
Not sure when karate schools started using the red/black panel belts,usually representing a renshi. The red/black panel belts are more used in Jujitsu to represent a shihan. 
The concept of belts came from Judo originally.
Now you can see schools having masters wearing all sorts of colour combination belts. This is an American creation. 
I know in Japanese Goju kai(Yamaguchi's school) they have a black belt with a red stripe through the middle for senior instructors.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 22, 2010)

twendkata71 said:


> In several Okinawan schools they wear the stripes to represent certain ranks( 5th and 6th dan-1 stripe),( 7th and 8th dan-2 stripes), (9th and 10th dan-3 stripes) Some shorin ryu schools(matsubayashi Shorin ryu), Okinawan Kenpo and Uechi Ryu use this.  Not sure where that tradition came from.
> Not sure when karate schools started using the red/black panel belts,usually representing a renshi. The red/black panel belts are more used in Jujitsu to represent a shihan.
> The concept of belts came from Judo originally.
> Now you can see schools having masters wearing all sorts of colour combination belts. This is an American creation.
> I know in Japanese Goju kai(Yamaguchi's school) they have a black belt with a red stripe through the middle for senior instructors.



I was told that when the first American students in Okinawa started training in Isshin-Ryu, there were only two belts, white and black.

I read that when Steve Armstrong came to train at Master Shimabuku's dojo, he told Master Shimabuku that he was a Ni-Dan in another style.  Master Shimabuku said _"Do kata."_  Armstrong did his kata and Shimabuku laughed at him.  _"Ni-Dan.  Ha Ha!  Ni-Dan, Ha Ha!"_ and handed him a white belt.  When Armstrong had learned his kata to Shimabuku's satisfaction, he gave him back his black belt.  Of course, the fact that he was a Ni-Dan in another style would seem to indicate that there were at least 'Dan' ranks in other styles.

It was also true that when the first American Marines who trained with Master Shimabuku rotated back to the USA, he gave them advanced black belt dan ranks; many of them were made 6th degree, no matter what they were before.  He expected them to continue to train on their own and that someday they would be worthy of the rank.  Most followed through, to the extent that even though Isshin-Ryu organizations are very splintered, very few would say that American high-dan ranks are not valid.


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## Stac3y (Jul 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Whatever works for you. We can see that different groups in karate do different things. I myself come from a fairly 'traditional' line and style so we don't have much adornment on our uniforms and belts other than a small style badge. I do fancy a blue uniform, but <sigh> it really doesn't fit my group's culture.


 
So does your belt have nothing at all on it, or does it have some indication of degree? Just curious. We also have a patch on each side of the chest (one for our local class, one for our org), and our surnames embroidered on our backs. Once you achieve 1st black, you can wear any color or style of gi you want; before that it's solid black only for color belts and solid red only for brown belts (so they can spot us in a crowd and order us around.) Compared to a lot of what I see at tournaments (tons of patches, intricate embroidery, etc.), we're really plain.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 22, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> So does your belt have nothing at all on it, or does it have some indication of degree? Just curious. We also have a patch on each side of the chest (one for our local class, one for our org), and our surnames embroidered on our backs. Once you achieve 1st black, you can wear any color or style of gi you want; before that it's solid black only for color belts and solid red only for brown belts (so they can spot us in a crowd and order us around.) Compared to a lot of what I see at tournaments (tons of patches, intricate embroidery, etc.), we're really plain.



My dojo wears a plain white gi.  I spent a short time in another Isshin-Ryu dojo that wore a black gi or a white gi as student preferred.  Black-belts were allowed to mix-and-match tops and bottoms.

We have patches available, but no one has to wear them. I don't have any on my gi.  Our patches are an Isshin-Ryu symbol on the left breast (Mizu-Gami), a dojo patch on one shoulder, and an organization patch (UIKA) on the other.  I forget which shoulder is which.  I haven't joined UIKA yet, but I keep meaning to do so.  I'd also like to put the dojo and Mizu-Gami on, just haven't gotten to it.


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## dancingalone (Jul 22, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> So does your belt have nothing at all on it, or does it have some indication of degree? Just curious.



The belts given to his students by my sensei are just plain, albeit good quality brands like Shureido.  All of his students who teach (myself included) follow this practice.  I do own a belt embroidered with my name and style in kanji, but that was a gift to me from my students.  I rarely wear it, although it is a nice belt.  

I hold black belts in TKD and aikido as well.  The aikido belt is similarly unadorned, but the TKD belt does have 2 stripes indicating my ee-dan rank.



> We also have a patch on each side of the chest (one for our local class, one for our org), and our surnames embroidered on our backs. Once you achieve 1st black, you can wear any color or style of gi you want; before that it's solid black only for color belts and solid red only for brown belts (so they can spot us in a crowd and order us around.) Compared to a lot of what I see at tournaments (tons of patches, intricate embroidery, etc.), we're really plain.


Wow, different color uniforms and your names on the backs.  That's pretty flashy by my standard.    As for tournaments, in my youth when I competed as a TKDist, I had one of those star spangled banner uniforms sold by Century.  What was I thinking?!


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## dancingalone (Jul 22, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Most followed through, to the extent that even though Isshin-Ryu organizations are very splintered, very few would say that American high-dan ranks are not valid.



Isshinryu is filled with inflated rank.  You can't shake a tree without a 7-10th dan falling out.  This is no secret in karate circles.  Please keep in mind I say that as a friend and admirer of the style, but I'm speaking the truth as I see it.  Respectfully said.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Isshinryu is filled with inflated rank.  You can't shake a tree without a 7-10th dan falling out.  This is no secret in karate circles.  Please keep in mind I say that as a friend and admirer of the style, but I'm speaking the truth as I see it.  Respectfully said.



It's no problem for me!  Fortunately, I feel secure.  My sensei is an 8th dan with 40+ years of training.  His dan ranks were signed by Sensei Mitchum and / or Harrill, and they in turn received their dan ranks from Master Shimabuku.  If their ranks are inflated, they were inflated by the founder of Isshin-Ryu, and I guess he could do whatever he wanted with his own style, eh?

My Sensei has often talked about how he has declined invitations to take part in ceremonies promoting others to ranks higher than that of the people doing the promoting; he feels it is not right.  He actually has dan-rank in the same degrees from more than one of his Senseis, since he felt better if they individually agreed that he was worthy of that dan ranking; the certificates are on the wall of the dojo for all to see.  He has been visited in his dojo and has demonstrated his kata to members of the Rengo-Kai, and they had no objection to his rank or claims.  From what I've heard, the Rengo-Kai is the real deal as far as authentic Okinawan karate goes.  If they agree you're a whatever-dan, then that's what you are.

And since rank is very, very, slow in my dojo, I would never feel that belts are given other than by being earned.  That's why I feel very honored to have a blue belt, and to be working on my brown belt requirements (I took the written test, still need to learn my Chinto kata).  I am told I'll be a brown belt for five or so years before I can even think about Sho-Dan.  I'll probably not live long enough to see much higher than maybe San-Dan if I really apply myself; I just started too late in life.  And that's just fine with me.

So no offense taken.  My rank is real, at least to my own satisfaction.  Seeing my Sensei and knowing what kind of man he is, I believe his is real too.  No ego-stroking or belt-inflation in my dojo that I'm aware of.


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## Victor Smith (Jul 22, 2010)

For starters there is almost no town you can go to in the United States you cant find 9th or 10th dans. Rank inflation as reached such proportions it has made all of it meaningless. You dont have school instructors you have Masters, etc.

Prior to the 1920s there was no rank in karate. When karate exported itself to Japan proper it adopted Judo traditions (uniforms, belt and kyu/dan ranking) to fit the new culture.

Back on Okinawa about the mid 1950s the Okinawan schools started up ranking programs and handed dan levels out to their groups by whatever standards they possessed. For example Gojus founder, Miyagi Chojun, refused to rank anyone with a black belt, but after his death all Goju were using black belt ranking.  Actually the Okinawans by the 50s saw that in 72 the USA was returning Okinawa to Japanese control and they likely felt Okinawa mirroring Japanese standards made sense in the long run.

One case Shimabuku Tatsuo, finalizing his system of Isshinryu, in 1956, did not choose the same standards for the Marines that other Okinawan schools were using.. Upon completion of their tour of duty on Okinawa (about 16 months) hed award them a black belt and give them a certificate for 5th or 6th dan and tell then thats what they should be in 20 years. Some of them just became sho-dan upon return to the States, others assumed their certificate rank.  Shimabuku also appointed 4 students to be the Seniors in the states and gave them 8th dan ranking.  That Isshinryu was never unified is a much larger topic than that of rank.

As Shimabuku never expected to see those students ever again his reasons were likely a mixture of the following:


Keep the USMC satisfied to keep paying for the program (Okinawa was in a severe depression and his students fees paid for his family support).
He probably felt most of the students would stop training so giving rank really amounted to very little.
All of his studies were from that time before rank, masters, etc. so he likely didnt think any of it amounted to much in the long run.
 The thing that was really surprising was so many of his students took their short training and kept it up for the rest of their lives. In that case the rank awards may have contributed to their wellbeing, their studies meant something.

Isshinryu splintering was not so much a rank issue but the fact that there was too much distance between each other to find a way to get on the same page.  Okinawa is only 45 miles long, the United States is a little bit bigger. In fact one way to look at it was a Master of Okinawa was a master in a space 45 miles long. Perhaps here the distance remains the same.

Isshinryu sure impressed on all the other systems senior rank works, and in time everyone realized there were no real rules and followed Shimabukus lead on rank.

Truthfully the only relevance of rank is within the particular organization it is given, 
outside of that its meaningless.

Another phenomena different from 10th dans everywhere, many of the Isshinryu 
eniors awarded each other very senior rank towards the end of their lives. 
Not inappropriate as they literally created karate where there was nothing.

I respect everyone who walks with honor and wont dispute their rank, but for 
myself I define a Master as someone who people remember 25 years after theyre 
dead. I then define a Grandmaster as someone who people remember 50 years 
after theyre dead. I have no desire to be a master. I've only been doing this 37 
years after all.


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## Stac3y (Jul 22, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Wow, different color uniforms and your names on the backs. That's pretty flashy by my standard.  As for tournaments, in my youth when I competed as a TKDist, I had one of those star spangled banner uniforms sold by Century. What was I thinking?!


 
We have a big organization, so the names help a lot. I often wish EVERYONE did it--especially my sons' friends. Personally, I hate the red uniform. I prefer black--it's slimming. As for the Century star spangled uniforms, I have a pic on my desk of the head instructor of my school wearing one. He only pulls it out on special occasions, fortunately.

I forgot to mention that the kids' demo team has our version of a "fancy" uniform--blue with a big eagle on the back and "Demo Team" as well as the surname. The kids also can have sleeve patches for straight A's and tournament wins. None of those allowed for the adults, though.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 22, 2010)

Sorry if this has already been explained I didn't read the whole thread.

In okinawa the stripes on the belt are as follows

1 stripe - denotes Renshi
2 stripes - denotes Kyoshi
3 stripes - denotes Hanshi

Takayoshi Nagamine the son of Shoshin Nagamine founder of Matsubayashi Shorin ryu has 4 stripes on his belt now which denots Hanshi-Sei (still trying to figure out the specifics on that one).

In other schools those holding 7th & 8th Dan and the title of Kyoshi wear the red and white paneled belt.  Those with the rank of 9th & 10th Dan with the title of Hanshi wear a solid red belt.

Some just choose to put their title in kanji on their belt also.

The split (half & half) red and white belts that we call renshi belts in the USA are not used in Okinawa at all nor mainland japan.

Isshin ryu normally follows the kyoshi red & white belt at 7th dan and red belt at 9th dan in Okinawa.  Some of the USA based associations use the red & white belt at 6th dan.


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## chrispillertkd (Jul 24, 2010)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Sorry if this has already been explained I didn't read the whole thread.
> 
> In okinawa the stripes on the belt are as follows
> 
> ...


 
Thanks so much for the information!

Pax,

Chris


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 24, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Thanks so much for the information!
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


No problem


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## rlp271 (Jul 26, 2010)

That's exactly what I was told recently.  It's nice to know it wasn't a bunch of crap haha.


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## Grenadier (Jul 27, 2010)

My school is a Shotokan dojo, and we use black belts for all yudansha ranks.  The only adornment is the school name in Kanji on one side, and the yudansha rank holder's name in Katakana on the other side.  

Some folks simply prefer to have a plain black belt (no embroidery).  That's fine by me as well.  

In one of my previous systems (Shuri Ryu), black belts for all yudansha rank holders, although 6-8th dan holders could wear a belt with alternating white and red vertical bands, and 9-10th dan holders used a solid red belt.  Most of the time, though, even the 6-10th dan holders would use their black belts, except for very formal occasions.


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## Martin h (Aug 5, 2010)

In kyokushin we use black belts for all dan grades, you just add stripes for each dan. The stripes are golden, and the only other adornment is a embroidered gold colored kanji. 
There is just no tradition of switching to other belts colors or patterns (red, checkered or whatever). 
Many just wear a simple black belt and save the striped one for ceremonial occasions. It is the same in basically all japanese styles and organizations. 

If you find someone wearing a different color belt at high grades, it is usually a european or american, from a non-japanese based style/organization.

Its a bit like all those multipatterned DoGi´s (I tend to think of them as "clown" DoGi´s) you see. Things like that are just not used in karate in japan.


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## Brandon Fisher (Aug 5, 2010)

Martin h said:


> In kyokushin we use black belts for all dan grades, you just add stripes for each dan. The stripes are golden, and the only other adornment is a embroidered gold colored kanji.
> There is just no tradition of switching to other belts colors or patterns (red, checkered or whatever).
> Many just wear a simple black belt and save the striped one for ceremonial occasions. It is the same in basically all japanese styles and organizations.
> 
> ...


Mainland Japan they do use only black belts however Okinawa is not the same.  Just wanted to clarify that it is not all of Japan.


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## TimoS (Aug 6, 2010)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Mainland Japan they do use only black belts however Okinawa is not the same.  Just wanted to clarify that it is not all of Japan.


Very true. I've seen a picture from some okinawan dojo, where just about everyone was wearing either a red/white or solid red belt. I've also seen video (or maybe it was photos) of a high-ranking Shorin sensei (maybe Shorinkan, but can't be sure) wear a purple dogi


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## Brandon Fisher (Aug 6, 2010)

Timo,
Yes the group you are thinking of is Shorinkan.  The "purple" dogi is are actually maroon and used strictly for kobudo.  To answer yoru question most all the kobayashi shorin ryu groups use the red and white belt and red belt for more than ceremonial use.


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## Hudson69 (Aug 6, 2010)

Bill Mattocks kind of hit the nail on the head, every system is different and can differ further by school.

In my system it is white, blue, blue with black stripe, green, green with black stripe, brown, brown with black stripe, black, black with a red stripe for every dan level above first black and that is just one type of karate.

When I was in Bujinkan Ninjutsu (way back when that was still used) it was white, green for six levels and then brown for two and then black; that was it.....  Kind of liked that, it was simple and less rivalry due to color of your belt, most people were just green...

My .02 only.


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## Laus (Aug 9, 2010)

The ranks where I have trained:

Goju Ryu:
white
yellow
orange
green
blue
brown
mudansha (brown)
black

Dan rank was signified by changes to the coloration of the crest.
Kids had half ranks, signified by two-tone belts (white-yellow, yellow-orange, etc)


Kyokushin

white
orange
blue
yellow
green
brown
black

Half ranks are marked with tape around the belt.
Dan ranks are signified by gold bars at one end of the belt, one per dan.


Aikido:

Kyus 7 through 1 wear white belts. 
Dans wear black belts, with a hakema over them so that the belt is not seen. There are no indicators for degree.


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## punisher73 (Aug 10, 2010)

Here is a picture of Angi Ueza in the red and white belt


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## punisher73 (Aug 10, 2010)

As far as what color etc.  Each organization can/will have a different color usage for their kyu ranks.

I studied Aikido a LONG time ago before starting my current style and for the kyu ranks it was white/blue/purple/brown with each having different kyu levels even though the color stayed the same.

In other Isshin ryu organizations it goes white/yellow/orange/blue/green/purple/brown/black

In Advincula's organization he sticks with the ranking system that Shimabuku used later on.  white/green/brown/black.  He also sets up the system that it takes about 3 years to blackbelt.  One of Shimabuku's goals was to develop a system that was quick and easy to learn, but would provide years to master.

As Victor pointed out.  Rank is really meaningless outside of your particular group/organization.  There is too much diversity among people as to what a black belt means in the first place.  For example, in the US if you earned your blackbelt in a year people would say that it was from a McDojo and say the belt was worthless, yet if you enroll in the JKA's university program it is set up that you earn a blackbelt in a year.  To them, it means that you are ready to start learning and does not denote a mastery of material.


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## Manny (Aug 14, 2010)

In my TKD organization we use embroided black belts, in one side is the name of the person in the other side the name of the organization. When I asked sambonim why no strips to denote the dan number he told me they not use the stripes because this denotes nothing but a number and we don't need this.

I rember when I was yoiunger and dreamed about a black belt with many strips, today I am more old fashion person and prefer a plain black belt without any lettering or embroided or strip or bar, for me nothing beats the neat black color.

Manny


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## MCG (Aug 14, 2010)

Where I train, we can wear strips for each Dan level. I usually wear my plain belt, it means more to me. I save the stripped belt for testings. The red and white belts are worn by the Renshi. Usually for testings, not for everyday training. Renshi is an instructor rank. They test for Renshi 6 years after they test for 6 Dan. They have to wait 6 years after Renshi to test for 7 Dan. People usually test for Shihan when they test for 5 Dan.


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## scottie (Aug 16, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It's no problem for me!  Fortunately, I feel secure.  My sensei is an 8th dan with 40+ years of training.  His dan ranks were signed by Sensei Mitchum and / or Harrill, and they in turn received their dan ranks from Master Shimabuku.  If their ranks are inflated, they were inflated by the founder of Isshin-Ryu, and I guess he could do whatever he wanted with his own style, eh?
> 
> 
> So no offense taken.  My rank is real, at least to my own satisfaction.  Seeing my Sensei and knowing what kind of man he is, I believe his is real too.  No ego-stroking or belt-inflation in my dojo that I'm aware of.



I was about to post something along the lines of what Dancingalone said...

I think it is very sad that egos (as well as other things) have led to a lot of self promoting in the early days of Isshinryu and even today. I must be careful not to offend every lineage. but with all that being said I love Isshinryu it is great. The Passion of Martial Arts for me. That is why I have tried to Aline with the UIKA. They are the real deal to me, and Mitchum is the senior American, that is my belief and I am proud of my team now.   

Bill you have a great Sensei!!! Anyone who is awarded rank from Mitchum has earned it. My sensei is a very knowledgeable student of Grand Master Mitchum and was also a student of Harrill and he has turned down many promotions. He knows more than some (most) 10th Dans running around and the cool thing is that he is so humble. So even with that rep. I know there are people who want to do it right and that is where i want to be.


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## OldKarateGuy (Aug 17, 2010)

just to add to general discussion...when I started in judo in late 60's, there were only four colors of belt: white, green, brown and black. Each colored belt rank had several degrees, but there were no distinguishing marks to signify, say, green 1st or green 2nd. Higher dan ranks - maybe 5th and over? Don't recall now - could wear a red and white belt, but I seem to remember that most of the senior belts considered actually wearing a belt other than black was showing off and very un-Japanese. Modesty dictated that even a high ranking dan wear a black belt under most circumstances.

JKA shotokan has something similar, in that both dan and colored belt holders have no visible indication of degree. Dan belts are very often embroidered, in Kanji, organization on one side and either the student's name, or the instructor's name on the other. There are no dan numbers, rank stripes, etc. So that guy in the shiny new black belt may be a very high rank wearing a recent gift from his students, for instance. If any shotokan dan practitioner wears anything but a black belt, I am unaware of it. 

I now train in a Korean school, where all belts have stripes (usually common white tape) to indicate degree of colored or dan rank. Dan belts are embroidered in English with student's name and dan number, and the organization in Hangul on the other side. Some dan students have the rank stripes embroidered in gold on the ends of the belt. Starting at 4th dan, studio owners can be promoted to a red and black striped belt. Higher degrees get some variation in the mix of red and black. 

Just a different mindset I guess. The shotokan schools (in the U S) tend to very plain white uniforms with a minimum of adornment - maybe a chest patch. The Korean schools tend to a plethora of rank and specialty patches, usually in English, plus flags, organization patches, school insignia and the like.  

just an aside, we have seen some shotokan schools from Central and South America that wear uniforms bearing the name and logo of corporate sponsors on the back, much like a Little League uniform. 

Personally, i like the unadorned look, plus a simple belt with no numbers, rank stripes, or other indicia of rank or seniority, etc. But I think the karate works or not, no matter what the uniform.


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