# Aikijujitsu and Pressure Points



## ppko (Jul 29, 2004)

How many of you actively use Pressure points while doing Aikijujitsu or just jujitsu and do you actively point them out, I do as it has really aproved my Aiki.

PPKO :EG:    :waah:


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## Sarah (Jul 29, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> How many of you actively use Pressure points while doing Aikijujitsu or just jujitsu and do you actively point them out, I do as it has really aproved my Aiki.
> 
> PPKO :EG:  :waah:


I am just about to start Jujitsu, but we do work on pressure points at my current Dojo (which incorporates TKD, Grappling, Ground Fighting etc). We learn a series of points for each belt and learn how to strike them, we also brake down Hyungs (patterns), Locks etc and learn what points we are working on.


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## ppko (Jul 29, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> I am just about to start Jujitsu, but we do work on pressure points at my current Dojo (which incorporates TKD, Grappling, Ground Fighting etc). We learn a series of points for each belt and learn how to strike them, we also brake down Hyungs (patterns), Locks etc and learn what points we are working on.


Very cool Sarah ask your instructor about the pressure points that release the neck as that is really cool

PPKO:EG:  :waah:


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## Rob Broad (Jul 29, 2004)

One of George Dillmans earliest tapes is was on grappling with pressure points.  It had some great ideas.


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## Sarah (Jul 29, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Very cool Sarah ask your instructor about the pressure points that release the neck as that is really cool
> 
> PPKO:EG:  :waah:


Will do, we have worked on one on the neck but that was for a strike, we are only just beginning to work on locks (I have only been training for a year).  But im sure we will be working on that more at the Jujitsu Club I am starting with this week,  I am really looking forward to it.


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## ppko (Jul 29, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> One of George Dillmans earliest tapes is was on grappling with pressure points. It had some great ideas.


Others will disagree with me but all of Georges' Tapes are very good and I consider them a vital part of my training.  

PPKO:EG:  :waah:


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## ppko (Jul 29, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Will do, we have worked on one on the neck but that was for a strike, we are only just beginning to work on locks (I have only been training for a year). But im sure we will be working on that more at the Jujitsu Club I am starting with this week, I am really looking forward to it.


Was it St9, St10, LI18 or another one

PPKO:EG:  :waah:


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## Sarah (Jul 29, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Was it St9, St10, LI18 or another one
> 
> PPKO:EG:  :waah:


Unsure which one, we only just touched on it, (may have been LI18 or TW17??)

Strike with slightly downward force, just past side of neck under scull, gives a tingling sensation when taped hard enough. Obviously we dont do with force.


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## Sarah (Jul 29, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Others will disagree with me but all of Georges' Tapes are very good and I consider them a vital part of my training.
> 
> PPKO:EG:  :waah:


Would anyone have a link to check out these tapes??


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## Rob Broad (Jul 29, 2004)

You can always check out http://www.dillman.com


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## ppko (Jul 29, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> You can always check out http://www.dillman.com


You beat me to it George is sometimes in New Zealand keep watch on his website under seminars and he will have it posted

PPKO:EG: :ticked: :waah:


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## Sarah (Jul 29, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> You beat me to it George is sometimes in New Zealand keep watch on his website under seminars and he will have it posted
> 
> PPKO:EG: :ticked: :waah:


*Thanks for that.*
*He looks familiar, does he belong to any other organisations that you know of?*


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## ppko (Jul 29, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> *Thanks for that.*
> *He looks familiar, does he belong to any other organisations that you know of?*


No George doesn't, he is the founder of DKI (Dillman Karate International) you should try his books they are also very helpfull

PPKO:EG: :ticked: :waah:


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## Sarah (Jul 29, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> No George doesn't, he is the founder of DKI (Dillman Karate International) you should try his books they are also very helpfull
> 
> PPKO:EG: :ticked: :waah:


Now  I know where I have seen him before, my first Instrustor is a 6dan BB in Ryukyu Kempo under George Dillman.:ultracool


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## ppko (Jul 29, 2004)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Now  I know where I have seen him before, my first Instrustor is a 6dan BB in Ryukyu Kempo under George Dillman.:ultracool


who was your 1st instructor and why don't you train with them anymore


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## bignick (Aug 7, 2004)

I do use pressure points in my jujitsu...even during my judo...not during shiai...but I take my judo through my college and the instructor is a 4th dan in judo and 5th dan in jujitsu...so almost everyone that starts taking judo from him ends up learning jujitsu...some stay with judo, some focus more on the jujitsu...but to get back to my point..no one else in our judo organization does this...and i've been going to the main dojo for the summer and we were working on the goshin jutsu kata, and in the defense from a rear choke hold my uke was being awfuly stubborn, so instead of going for the standard escape, I "augmented" it slightly by striking the pressure point between the metacarpals on the back of the hand.  His response was along the lines of, "OW!  ...oh yeah...your one of (Sensei) Cruff's students aren't you...". I found it interesting to be identified by a technique i used...and it worked too...


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## ppko (Aug 7, 2004)

very cool story


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## auxprix (Aug 8, 2004)

What do you guys think of this:

I once had a sensei (not my current) who was well versed in Aikido as well as Judo. He would sometimes teach us some of the pressure points. One day, a few college football players came into class. One was a receiver (I think) and the other was a lineman. Naturally, the Lineman was a bit fatter. The sensei demonstrated some PPs on the arms. He first did it to a receiver, who hit the ground right away. Then he attempted it on the Lineman, but couldn't get it to work.

He tried and tried, but eventually gave up. He said that it was difficult to use PPs on people who have excess fat, because it cushions the nerves.

My question is: Has anyone else experienced this? I want to know if this guy was just making excuses.


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## bignick (Aug 8, 2004)

I don't think he was making excuses at all...some people just dont' react to certain pressure points which is what can make them a risky technique...when they work...they work spectacular...when they don't, you're in trouble if you don't have a follow up plan.  As for myself, I've found that quite a few pressure points don't bother me, Was the pressure point you are talking about on the forearm...because that one doesn't bother me at all, neither does the one where the ears/jaw meet..and thanks to my training some other ones are beginning to lose their effectiveness because i've become accustomed to them...they still hurt...but if i know it's coming i can stand my ground.  As for excess fat cushioning nerves...yes...it can and so can muscle...everybody is different and peoples reaction to and the effectiveness of the same attack won't always be the same, the same goes for joint locks...i know more than one guy that can take there palm and lay it flat on their forearm...try a wristlock on one of these guys and they'll be grinning from ear to ear as they pummel you...


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## Disco (Aug 9, 2004)

Agree totally with bignick. I too happen to be one of those persons that many PP techs don't work on. There also is another factor which instructors and students overlook, clothing. Depending upon where one lives and the season, certain clothing eliminates using PP's. My personal opinion on techniques is that if there are restrictions applicable, then it's not worth doing. It may seem like a great technique in training with a willing partner, but if done to someone untrained, whatever the reason, and it dosen't work as outlined, your in trouble in the real world. Now I know what some will say, you must be prepared to do a followup technique. You have already lost time and the element of surprise, what if the followup tech dosen't work either? 
Just some food for thought.  :uhyeah:


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## bignick (Aug 9, 2004)

Sometimes clothing can help you though...people always question the effectivness of judo without a gi on...well, i'll tell you something...i live in northern minnesota and most of the year people are wearing a lot heavier clothing than a judogi...everybody wears all these nice heavy winter jackes that just scream....THROW ME!!!


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## auxprix (Aug 10, 2004)

I also think that an experienced Judoka could generate enough momentum by gripping a tee-shirt without ripping it. They could, therefore, do most of the throws gi-free. Make no mistake though, it is difficult. I've done a bit of gi free training, and wish that I had the opportunity to do a little more.

BigNick, I train at Midway Judo in St. Paul. Are you coming to our shiai in September? It's the Land of lakes Tourney.


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## bignick (Aug 10, 2004)

You never know...I know some members of my club have went down there...I'm not sure what the name of the tournament was....it'd be nice to get to another shiai...I won't know until closer to the tournament...i'm a poor college student...and tournament money somtimes slips down the list of the necessities...though somehow it usually finds itself towards the top of the wants...

also i've been focusing on taekwondo recently, especially this summer...i'm gearing up for a possible black belt test in december...so that's where my attention wanders to now...although my sensei has been prodding me to take a rank test in judo as well...as i explained in another post...a lot of the time students at my dojo end up studying jujitsu...my instructor is 4th dan judo, 5th dan jujitsu...so it just kind of naturally happens this way...so we practice both equally...but our judo rank slips behind compared to jujitsu...i've been a rokyu(yellow belt) for over a year...and i know people that have been actively practicing and stayed at gokyu(orange) for over two years...although one just tested for yonkyu

thanks for mentioning it though...i'll keep it in mind


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## bignick (Aug 10, 2004)

sorry about the off topic post, by the way


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 26, 2006)

ppko said:
			
		

> How many of you actively use Pressure points while doing Aikijujitsu or just jujitsu and do you actively point them out, I do as it has really aproved my Aiki.
> 
> PPKO :EG:  :waah:


 
In Hakko-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-ryu that my sensei taught, pressure points and kyusho jutsu are used very often, mostly in form of thumb presses against certain nerves and places where vital organs are relatively close to the skin surface.


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## Cirdan (Feb 26, 2006)

Pressure points are used both where I train Ju jutsu and Wado karate. In JJ it is mostly about getting getting the best lock possible while wado teaches it mainly as part of striking and grabbing to greater effect.

(Edit) Interesting topic by the way. I guess that since we are not all built alike not all pressure points will affect all to the same degree. Having a high treshold of pain or being intoxicated will also limit how some PPs affect you. If you rely on pressure point pain to control someone in a real situation you`d better have a backup plan like another grip, striking or breaking the limb.


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## Brother John (Feb 26, 2006)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> You can always check out http://www.dillman.com


 
Another VERY good one is:
www.kyusho.com
and their other excellent resource:
www.learnkyusho.com

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Feb 26, 2006)

auxprix said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of this:
> 
> I once had a sensei (not my current) who was well versed in Aikido as well as Judo. He would sometimes teach us some of the pressure points. One day, a few college football players came into class. One was a receiver (I think) and the other was a lineman. Naturally, the Lineman was a bit fatter. The sensei demonstrated some PPs on the arms. He first did it to a receiver, who hit the ground right away. Then he attempted it on the Lineman, but couldn't get it to work.
> 
> ...


 
Pressure points are NOT universally effective, but they can, in MOST cases, provide a new depth of ability and layer of options in all that you do.

Your Brother
John


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## ppko (Mar 1, 2006)

you have to look at people like they are on a bell curve especially when you are discussing PP's.  Some people are more sensitive on certain points but not so much on others, and vice versa.  Every situation that you can think of can happen, best advise take what presents itself and don't fish for moves or points


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 2, 2006)

Sensei said that certain pressure points techniques will always works, some others don't. Those which always works includes: thumbs to inguinal canals and thumbs to armpit. What do you think?


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Sensei said that certain pressure points techniques will always works, some others don't. Those which always works includes: thumbs to inguinal canals and thumbs to armpit. What do you think?


 
If your sensei said this then it probably is true. I`ve never trained with those points. However I would consider the possibility of exceptions like people on drugs.


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## ppko (Mar 2, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Sensei said that certain pressure points techniques will always works, some others don't. Those which always works includes: thumbs to inguinal canals and thumbs to armpit. What do you think?


While all points work on all people the effects are not the same, it may really hurt one persone but the next person just takes it as an anoyance while either way it still sets them up you always have people that can take certain techniques this is especially true when you are in the heat of a moment


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 2, 2006)

ah I see now. So it doesn't matter whether the opponent screams in pain or simply get distracted. because the idea was to distract, and if the opponent are hurt, it's much better. am I correct?


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## ppko (Mar 2, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> ah I see now. So it doesn't matter whether the opponent screams in pain or simply get distracted. because the idea was to distract, and if the opponent are hurt, it's much better. am I correct?


the thing to always remember don't stop until your opponent does if the technique does not work hit them again until they stop fighting the point is not to distract your opponent but to come out the victor and alive that is the point as I see it.  What style do you practice


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 2, 2006)

Thank you for the advice.

I study Wado-ryu karate, like Cirdan 

But I also study Jujutsu. Here is my videoclip doing Jujutsu

www.geocities.com/gbi_club/denny_action.zip

(right click, save as. If server too busy, try again within 10 mins)

I am sure those throws and locks of Jujutsu will be much easier to do with additions of pressure points attacks, yes? If you look closely at my sankaku jime clip, I activate the pressure point under uke's jaw to set him up to the position I wanted him to be. what do you think?


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## ppko (Mar 2, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Thank you for the advice.
> 
> I study Wado-ryu karate, like Cirdan
> 
> ...


nice clips, and yes the addition of PP's will help you out in jujitsu, as well as any other art.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 2, 2006)

Thank you for the encouragements! I am small, so attacking pain points is sometimes the only way to go 

Off course, what I know about pain points in Jujutsu is very superficial! That's why I go to this forum, to learn more from more knowledgeable people. Like yourself


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## Cirdan (Mar 2, 2006)

Nice clips  

The pressure points in the arms can be very useful for gaining an edge when executing throws too.

Wado and ju jutsu is a great combination to train in:karate:


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## kamishinkan (Mar 2, 2006)

We use pressure points in the art I train in, we use pressing and striking the points depending on the situation. Most of our pressure point background came through Hakko Ryu. My wife does not feel any pressure points (she will just stare at you), she is unusual in that she feels no pain in joint manipulations either (pressure but no pain). She trains hard and has learned to "go with the technique" to keep from damaging joints. I have also learned to be careful with pressure points, when dealing with PP you can actually affect people BEYOND just causing pain. I trained with a very high ranking Hakko Ryu instructor and he knocked me out by striking the back of my leg! I have also heard stories of intense PP training causing "the runs" and other adverse side affects.
FUN, FUN

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 4, 2006)

Dear Kamishinkan, I study Hakko-ryu as well. I am amazed that your wife does not feel any pain when you apply joint lock. You mean, she wasn't even feel any pain from Nidan-Gi Ayadori, Nidan-Gi Mune Osaedori etc? This I must see! She must have very high tolerance of pain, or very flexible joints.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 4, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> Nice clips
> 
> The pressure points in the arms can be very useful for gaining an edge when executing throws too.
> 
> Wado and ju jutsu is a great combination to train in:karate:


 
Yes Cirdan, that is very true, wado and jujutsu is very good combination, in fact my sensei said that wado is already jujutsu, also the 2nd grandmaster said that wado is both wado-ryu karate and wado-ryu jujutsu kenpo, as he said in his website www.wado-ryu.jp

so you are already learning two arts with the price of one


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## kamishinkan (Mar 7, 2006)

Sorry it took so long to respond. I was out of town for the weekend!

It's true my wife will just look at you! I have done several severe joint locks, (in Kamishin Ryu we do not use the Hakko Ryu names) and have had her say "that feels wierd, I can feel my joint seperating" (never in formal class though). I usually will throw her down in class and do the classic Kote Gaeshi hold down with the foot and she just stares at you, (this KILLS everyone else I know). She can pin her fingers back on her arm, VERY flexible joints. The problem is that the pain is designed to warn you of impending damage to the joint. She feels nothing but pressure on the joint and she knows that it is about to break, just no pain. I have taught her that she will feel tremendous pain if her joint gets broken so she has learned to let the pressure come slightly to the joint then "go with" the pressure to keep from damage. She is rare, I have only seen 2 people like her since I have been teaching. As far as the pressure points, she does not feel them either. Although she is rare, you never know when you will face someone like her so I feel that pressure points should be only used in conjunction with other solid technique. We use pressure points only as an "aid" to the technique. 

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 7, 2006)

well it's both a blessing and a curse to have such flexible joints. Blessing because it will help her in executing kaeshiwaza (reversing aiki joint locks). A curse because she will never know when damage starts accumulating. I hope you train wisely. Anyway, I respect all woman who takes their martial arts training seriously, and your wife is surely one of them! 

So, what's the structure of your Kamishin aiki jujutsu? Do you use Aikido-like terms like ikkyo etc? And at which rank will you start learning pressure points/kyushojutsu?


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## kamishinkan (Mar 8, 2006)

Yes my wife trains hard. She trained up until a week before our first son was born and she is 6 mos pregnant now and still trains (very restricted, mostly forms and structured partner training). 
 As far as our Aikijujutsu training. Kamishin Ryu is organized very similar to Hakko Ryu in that it has Shodan, Nidan, etc waza lists. These lists are relatively short lists (usually 15-25 techniques per list) plus each techniques variations and different applications. We do not use the Aikido (or Aikijujutsu) style Ikkajo or Ikkyo. Our first technique is called Kamishin Shomei Odori then Kote Shomei Odori, Te Hana Odori, etc. Each name is given as a sort of identifier of the technique layout or underlying principle.
 As far as PP training it begins roughly around the Gokyu step. Basic pressure point assists to the locking technique, usually at this point for pinning techniques. Usually Sankyu level we get into the beginnings of striking PP techniques. These levels are the basic levels, at times a lower student may be shown a technique involving PP, but the deeper explanations are skipped until the student is more proficient. 
 Kamishin Ryu does not go as deeply into the PP/Meridian training as does Hakko Ryu. From what I have seen of Hakko Ryu it is a fundemental part of the training, in Kamishin Ryu it is more of a "helping assist" to the waza.

Darrell Collins
Kamishinkan Dojo


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 11, 2006)

Hello Darrel,

Thank you for the Kamishin-ryu descriptions. Sounds very hakko-ryu-ish   Whaddya say if I start a new thread where you and I could describe our arts & note the similarities and differences, for the benefit of all these good people here at MartialTalk? Sounds good?


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## kamishinkan (Mar 11, 2006)

sounds good to me, let me know.


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