# Points to ponder



## A.R.K. (Feb 10, 2003)

Greetings my friends,

I have some thoughts I wished to put down on paper so to speak.  As I begin I suspect this will be rather lengthy so I ask you for your patience.  I am going to try to paint a picture of some of my thought.  Nothing contained herein should be considered meant to anger anyone here or anywhere.  Not in the slightest.  The goal is to either have the light bulb click on so to speak or to put down on paper the view of many others.  I ask that you truly read these thoughts so as to really understand the point Im trying to focus in on.

Word, phrases, terms, meanings etc.  I will use myself as an example.  I have a Dan in Pangai-noon.   WhoaWhoaWhoa!!!Hold on there buckaroo!  [Warning Will RobinsonDanger Danger Danger somethings not right here].  Dave..you cant DO that.  Thats a Chinese system with a Japanese rank.  You fake, you fraud, you moron what are you trying to pull on us?  We got you now, consider yourself EXPOSED bubba he he he.  Well lets take a look at this outside the box so to speak.  Pangai-noon is indeed a system of Chinese origin, no doubt about it.kinda, sorta, maybe [but not REALLY].  Let me explain what I mean, please.  

What is the Martial Arts?  Boil away the fluff and feathers and the pious attachments it is a means of injuring or killing someoneideally in defense of ones self, loved one or property.  Thats the bottom line.  Vast debate goes on as to where it all started, and Im not here to open that particular can of worms [Im opening up enough here as it is &#61514;].  But from my research, and to me just common sense it very probably came from the middle east/Babylon/Mesopotamia/Persian area of the world.  That is my opinion, yours may differ.  But essentially, someone was, somewhere and sometime attacked by a BG and successfully defended himself.  He probably passed on the account at the local tavern demonstrating how he did it.  Somewhere, someone wrote it down and perhaps combined it with a few things that made sense to him or perhaps something he used along the way.  So on and so forth.  No Masters, no founders, no belts, no titles etc.  Eventually it was used in the art of war to defeat ones enemies.  Later the fluff got attached to it.  Probably sometime after whats-his-name floated down the river on a reed and stared a hole in a wall by looking at it for ten years.  No insult intended &#61514; just giving this as an example. 

So nothing therefore can really said to be indigenous to any particular place.  I dont believe someone took a nap under a tree, had a dream of a fighting system and woke up to begin teaching something never before heard of.  Styles/systems if you look back far enough in the lineage were a compilation of things that came before the founder.  Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away a long time ago, someone who took Pangai-noon probably said I like this system but I dont like sashes, Im gonna go with belts instead.  And they did so and passed it on, and on and on.  Same information just a little different twist to it.  Is this wrong.  If you say yes then I submit the following to you for worthy consideration

Uechi-ryu IS Pangai-noon with added katas and drills.  No let me say first that in my opinion, Uechi-ryu is a legitimate and highly worthy system with a myriad of fine martial artists.  Practitioners of the system have won many world competitions etc etc and saved their bacon in real-world fights.  BUT, could not someone say Uechi-ryu is a rip off of another style and they have no business doing so.  In their opinion would that not void out any belt holder in the rip off style of Uechi-ryu?  Of course not, and that is my point.  Its not a rip off.  It was Pangai-noon up until the 1940s till it was renamed and the structure set in place that now exists in Okinawa.  It is legit and it is sound.  I have many friends in the system.  

Same with American Karate or Brazilian Ju-Jitsu.  Karate is not an American word and Ju-Jitsu is not Brazilian.  But does that make void the accomplishments of the practitioners of these systems?  Have they not won medals and protected themselves in real-world altercations?  Is that not the ultimate goal of the so-called Martial Arts?  Does anyone have the right to look down their noses [not pointing a finger at anyone in particular] on these or any art forms.  Do ANY of us come from a truly original system in which nothing was brought in from outside sources at some point in its history?  Is there truly any such thing as a traditional art form or is that merely a catch phrase to distinguish itself from such modern things like MMA/hybrid.  Are they not ALL truly MMA/hybrid at some point and then made uniform throughout the following years/generations into tradition?

If an American or Canadian or Iranian or Brazilian etc found there own system in an order that is logical to them, is it less than those systems established already in another region of this planet?  Were not those systems at some point new?  Is it right to look down on that which is new simply because it IS new?  If the system has fulfilled the basic tenant of its purpose i.e. save your life, is it not then valid?  Can an American with 30 + years experience in different MAs, with hundreds of real-world uses as well as awards and other trivial honors develop his own system?  If not then I submit that every belt holder in Judo turn in his/her belt.  Why?  Because Judo was developed by a 22 year old with only a few years experience in Ju-Jitsu.  Yet Judo IS a widely respect sport as well as effective means to go home safe at night.  For that matter we may as well throw out BJJ, and American Kempo and Agni Kickboxing and Uechi-ryu and for that matter.every style and system.  Especially JKD because Bruce was only in his 20s-30s and officially held no BB.  How could HE be the Grandmaster so to speak,or founder etc.  The reality of course is that not only could he, he did.  And quite well.  Do you understand the focus Im taking the long road to get to?  If at this point youre angry with meyoure missing the point.

Shuri-Te IS NOT a legitimate system!!!  Well there are those that disagree.  Does that invalidate their trophies?  Does it void their rank?  If so, every BB on this board is voided because of my above points.  If someone wants to call their art Shui-ryu and another Shur-TeSo?  People get a bee in their bonnet over the most trivial things.  The name, terms, expressions, phrases etc do not determine the ability to deal with a threat.  Same with Soke or any other term.  People loss their minds over such stuff.  They become antangonistic, arrogantjust plain mean.  Maybe Soke originally meant founder and maybe it didnt.  I dont know, nor do I care.  Words and titles take on new meanings.  There are a BUNCH of folks who consider Soke to simply mean founder and nothing more.  People with far more experience and years in than I have, and probably more than 90% of the posters here.  Highly respected organizations not only use the term butGASPissues it or honors individuals with it.  If it did not originally mean founderwell it does now and in a whole lot of countries!   Btw, my Sokeship was granted to me by my betters in Kobe, Japan and also recognized/recorded in Soul South Korea and Saudia Arabia.  Oh My God!!!  Its a word people and nothing more.  If it cheapen the whole experience for youwell youre probably not a founder.  And those that are founders in ANY country probably dont care.  And IF they do.who cares about that?  Again this is not meant to elicit a hostile reaction, Im trying to open some things up.

People like to say pious things such as I train for the knowledge not the rank.yet they wear a belt.  The belt says to the world you have achieved something, yet you dont care, yet you still wear it.  Again, Im not bringing this up to piss anyone off!  Please understand this.  Truth be told, belts are a relatively new thing.  The so called old world masters never wore one and if they were alive today they would probably look down on everyone of us for being so concerned with the whole issue.  If you still say I doesnt mean anything to me then here is something to think aboutturn it in.  Dont just not wear it, tell your instructor you are there exclusively for the training he provides and wish to be free of such material things as it impedes your training.  Are there people who do that?  Yep, there are people who still wear a white belt but are actually high Dans in ability.  They just never got around to getting one and figured it wouldnt help their karate anyway.   

In short [way to late for that Dave], I dont think any of us have the right or authority to look down on another for such trivial things.  If someone has little or no training and then opens up a school to teach and laugh all the way to the bank, then yeah, we can voice concern.  But to get upset over things such as what has been mentioned above.no.  It is all the same wheel, just different spokes in the wheel.  If a term is different or changed its meaning along the way, well it happens and not just in the Martial Arts.

If you have read this far, my many thanks.  Hopefully something contained herein makes sense, or caused a light bulb to go off, or voiced ideas you have already considered.  If anything herein has angered you, that was not the intent and you have missed the meat of the matter.  In any regard I thank you for your time.

Take care.

David Schultz
The yank that founded Zhao Dai Wei based on stuff he learned from other people along the last three decades and put it in a system that made sense to him and some others and he and others have used to defend themselves from violent assault from real bad guys..


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## Kirk (Feb 10, 2003)

You make valid points.  As for the term "soke" though ... I 
understand that we as Americans like to take things and make
them our own (such as the french word, foyer, pronounced by
a lot of Americans as /foy yur/ when it's actually /foy yay/), but 
why use it at all?  Why not make up our own, or just use 
"founder" ? 

Americans, and the other countries you speak of ... don't you 
think maybe they 'stole' the word?  We haven't adopted the 
word, we've adapted it.  That is, if what you say is true and that 
many MAists in countries other than Japan consider it to mean 
"founder".  True, American's history is full of "adapting" foreign
words, but most of those are from Latin, Roman, and Old Greek.
Words that aren't in use anymore, other than in very abstract 
settings.  

Using the term "soke" in the case of MA is a bit haphazard, since 
it's still a word in use in Japan, and with the world getting 
smaller, and the fact that it's a joke to the Japanese getting out 
more and more, you're just asking for trouble by using the word.
I present  you with the same tidbit you gave in your post.   It's 
not about rank, so why wear the belt?  Using the term soke has
the purpose of presenting a certain stature, for whatever reason.
If it's not, why belong to a soke council/club/organization at all?
Why even imply being a soke?  So if the Japanese go on making
it well known what the term currently really means, you lose the
stature and respect you're looking for, don't you?


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## DAC..florida (Feb 10, 2003)

Mr. shcultz I respect the stand that you have made here and i also feel that you make valid points. In the martial arts there are many words stolen from other cultures such as.....kata.................
if you catch slack for using soke then we should all catch it for using other words. soke may have more meaning to the japanese
.......america has adopted this word to mean founder simple definition. as kata defined is basic.....to americans it's performing forms.         

many americans have forgotton that to some people from china, japan, korea ect. martial arts is not just a sport or self defence it's thier life and thier religion so I can understand why some people could get a little upset, but those individuals should relize that americans mean no harm by using these terms and rather than getting upset with us they should get upset with their own people who have brought these terms to this country and made millions of dollars teaching americans..........thats just one mans opinion hope i didnt offend anyone because that was not my intent.


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## Marginal (Feb 10, 2003)

Well, just to put a general spin on the discussion, let's say language probably developed first in a set area then spread from there...

Does that mean that I can then randomly use words, grammar and other syntax from any system I want because they were all once related in some Babblesque mix?

I suppose so, but then it kinda misses the point of developing a cohesive language with rules and structure that makes it understandable. At best, I look sloppy rather than enlightened, at worst, I'm incomprehensible to all would be readers/listeners.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Mr. shcultz I respect the stand that you have made here and i also feel that you make valid points. In the martial arts there are many words stolen from other cultures such as.....kata................. *



I think one of the first grand pooh bah of fakes to use the term Soke was Rod Sacharnoski and it was used to gain money. Although he might have been the first dork to use the term he certainly wasnt the last.
Since then we have seen all kind of Mutual Sokeship granting societies  




> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * if you catch slack for using soke then we should all catch it for using other words. soke may have more meaning to the japanese
> .......america has adopted this word to mean founder simple definition. as kata defined is basic.....to americans it's performing forms. *



Why not just use the English word founder.
It makes sense, American style, use American words. Then there is less confusion all around. 
Its stupid to use a word that you dont know what it means.     



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * many americans have forgotton that to some people from china, japan, korea ect. martial arts is not just a sport or self defence it's thier life and thier religion so I can understand why some people could get a little upset, but those individuals should relize that americans mean no harm by using these terms and rather than getting upset with us they should get upset with their own people who have brought these terms to this country and made millions of dollars teaching americans..........thats just one mans opinion hope i didnt offend anyone because that was not my intent. *



What in the hell are you talking about???
I have yet to see where you can buy dan rank or a Soke rank on the Internet in Japan or Asia.
HOWEVER, in the US there are plenty of places.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Word, phrases, terms, meanings etc.  I will use myself as an example.  I have a Dan in Pangai-noon.   WhoaWhoaWhoa!!!Hold on there buckaroo!  [Warning Will RobinsonDanger Danger Danger somethings not right here].  Dave..you cant DO that.  Thats a Chinese system with a Japanese rank.  You fake, you fraud, you moron what are you trying to pull on us?  We got you now, consider yourself EXPOSED bubba he he he.  Well lets take a look at this outside the box so to speak.  Pangai-noon is indeed a system of Chinese origin, no doubt about it.kinda, sorta, maybe [but not REALLY].  Let me explain what I mean, please.  *




Pangainoon was the original name used for what is known today as Uechi Ryu.
There were a few people in 1978 that broke away from Kanyei Uechis students to form the New Pangainoon Ryu. These revisionists were Seiko Itokazu and Kinjo Takashi.
There reason for doing so was political as well as wanting to incorporate Okianwan Kobudo into the system.

Schultz, 

You never did answer my question about who you got your 8th dan from in Pangainoon.
Since it is such a high rank it could only have come from a higher ranked source which would lead us to someone in Okinawa.
I will make it a real simple question so there is no confusion.
Who did you test for 8th dan with?
Since Pangainoon now uses Okinawan Kobudo which system of Okianwan Kobudo do you use?
Also, do you know the name of Pangainoon in Chinese?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> Shuri-Te IS NOT a legitimate system!!!  Well there are those that disagree.  Does that invalidate their trophies?  Does it void their rank?  If so, every BB on this board is voided because of my above points.  If someone wants to call their art Shui-ryu and another Shur-TeSo?  People get a bee in their bonnet over the most trivial things. *



False claims are just thatFALSE.

You still have yet to supply a list of those names of teachers that teach Shuri-Te Ryu down in Okinawa. 




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *David Schultz
> The yank that founded Zhao Dai Wei based on stuff he learned from other people along the last three decades and put it in a system that made sense to him and some others and he and others have used to defend themselves from violent assault from real bad guys..
> *



So you say Virtual Tough Guy.

Combat Poseur 
How to Spot a Virtual Tough Guy

Its Only a Flesh Wound
Your average Virtual Tough Guy has been there and done that, man. He's been shot, he's been stabbed, he's been cut. He's won countless fights and lost a few, too. 



Questionable Information
The average Virtual Tough Guy loves to be the center of attention, and he wants you to believe he's an expert. To that end he's constantly telling you what he thinks he knows. The problem is that he's basically ignorant -- and, as a result, he'll contradict himself. Apart from contradictions, he'll often dispense information that's just plain false or based on misconceptions.
-----------------------------

Kind of like using the word Soke........


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

.


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## sweeper (Feb 10, 2003)

well unless I'm missing the point of what you are saying, basicly you just said names and words are in essence variables, placeholders for conceots and ideas, there meaning changes over time so it isn't true to say that a word has one set meaning that can not evolve.

If that's the case I agree..  Realy I could use any given word to mean any given idea as long as who I'm speaking to understands my usage. If for some reason someone else were to intercept sucha  communication or if they were to perhaps believe that I was speaking to them what I say might not make sence..  This I think is where you have problems..  the word you are useing means one thing to some people and one thing to another group of people, as a result things don't add up and someone calls it. They aren't wrong for calling it..  It just doesn't add up from their perspective.

to make that simple, if I say 1+2 = 5 yet I'm using 5 as a proxy for 3 than what I said was correct, but if someone doesn't know this and says I'm wrong, they are also correct ina  sence because to them 5 is not equalto 3.

Ok hope that made sence....


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## DAC..florida (Feb 10, 2003)

I would like to know where you got buying dan rank from what i wrote?

I viewed this site for over a week before registering and the only thing that i've seen come from you is negative statements bashing everyone else, and your suposed to be a mediator on this site........................................................................................

My father always told me not to mind the person who is constantly picking on others because they are the ones who have the low self esteem, is that true?

I have registared on this site to hopefully to recieve other peoples experiences in the martial arts not to get into a debate
with you so if you have nothing positive to say to me .....but out !


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I would like to know where you got buying dan rank from what i wrote? *



You didnt..I brought it up based on this statement.



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *..but those individuals should relize that americans mean no harm by using these terms *



Seems all the Americans that use the word Soke also belong to some Mutual Soke Recognition Society to give their bogus title credibility and most have some sort of rank for sale...........on the Internet.



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *..and rather than getting upset with us they should get upset with their own people who have brought these terms to this country and made millions of dollars teaching americans.......... *



Sounds like a racist comment if I ever heard one
Also, which Asian teachers are using the word Soke in the US and of them how many are millionaires?



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I viewed this site for over a week before registering and the only thing that i've seen come from you is negative statements bashing everyone else, and your suposed to be a mediator on this site........................................................................................ *



I guess you didnt look at it long enough then.
Read under my name again and show me where it says mediator/moderator or whatever.
I am not either, just a mere grunt like the rest of the people here.



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *My father always told me not to mind the person who is constantly picking on others because they are the ones who have the low self esteem, is that true? *



Dont know. I am just voicing my opinion like the rest of you.
It obviously is a sore spot with you though..are my comments getting under you skin or something?
Feel free to dispute anything I post with a logical argument based on your personal experiences or some other form of facts.



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I have registared on this site to hopefully to recieve other peoples experiences in the martial arts not to get into a debate with you so if you have nothing positive to say to me .....but out ! *



Well you seem to have already made up your mind on certain subjects and have already shut the door to your open mind. 

If America has adopted the word Soke then I am wondering why it isnt in the American English Dictionary.
It is in the Japanese dictionary and seems to be quite different than the fake Sokes in the west use it for.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 10, 2003)

Zhao Dai Wei...  Sounds like Catonese...  In other words, bad Mandarin.  In fact, it sounds like VERY POOR Catonese.  Why would someone who has roots from mostly Japanese systems use a Chinese name?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Zhao Dai Wei...  Sounds like Catonese...  In other words, bad Mandarin.  In fact, it sounds like VERY POOR Catonese.  Why would someone who has roots from mostly Japanese systems use a Chinese name? *



I am wondering why a guy that supposedly trained in and claims rank in Okinawa arts uses Japanese titles (Soke) and Japanese techniques on his website, (Some of the photos on there are Aikido techniques.poorly executed mind you but still recognizable), then calls what he does by a Chinese name.

The "Red Flags" just keep popping up........


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 10, 2003)

Schultz,

You mentioned the kata of Pangainoon before.

What are the names of the kata in Pangainoon?


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## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

First, Zhao Dai Wei,

You are a very wise man. You are able to read between the lines and see whats really there. You are a stand up guy.

Second, RyuShiKan, martial arts does not have anything to do with with country bashing, not if your for real. By the way, your "what we offer picture". WEAK! Looked like a typical AMERICAN Karate class to me! You've been trying to clown me???

The terminology? We AMERICANS would of loved to of been able to concentrate on the techniques and the kata without being corrected because we did one technique and we named another  in Japanese. The terminology was a part of the program from the beginning and still is, LIVE WITH IT!!

When then martial arts came here, the terminology came with it. So the terminology is ours now. Theres other terminology that we have too. Tacos, burritos, you name it something from every culture is here and it isn't going to be the same as it is there. 

The truth is our form may be lacking (compared to the perfect ones) but  WE ARE THE BEST FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD!!!


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 11, 2003)

akja,

The best fighters in the world eh!

Wake up and smell the roses son. You need to get out more.

Mike.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *akja,
> 
> The best fighters in the world eh!
> ...


Who does have the best fighter and explain?

Who has the most professional world champions of all time? Just wondering. But whatever we get exposed to, we always rise to the top!


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## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *akja,
> 
> The best fighters in the world eh!
> ...



Just checked out your site. United Kingdom, eh.


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## sweeper (Feb 11, 2003)

Well I'm not realy very aware of international competition, butI'm curious who you think the best fighters are in the world and how do you grade them on their ability?


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## James Kovacich (Feb 11, 2003)

Fighters from all around the world are great. I just think that we have bigger numbers, thats all.

Abilities are hard to judge. Tito Ortiz came out of nowhere, he wasn't that great early on and look at him now competing against some guys that have trained all of their lives. Same with  Frank Shamrock. Chuck Lidell, at first I didn't think much of him, I was wrong. Cung Le is a great kickboxer , has an extensive wrestling background, but sticks to kickboxing. Ricco Rodriquez is on a roll but I haven't really seen much of him yet.

Mike Tyson is "one" of the baddest men on the planet. George Foreman is a great boxer and at his age I think he will be the oldest great warrior out there. Paulie Ayala has had a great career and is a great boxer. 

I can't rate them at all. I couldn't even come close to just naming them.

But for Ortiz, shamrock and lidell, they are great because they are well adept in "all ranges."


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## A.R.K. (Feb 11, 2003)

Well thus far this has at least been an interesting character study  

Interesting to note the lack of courtesy on the parts of some.  I believe that courtesy is one of the more admirable attachments that have been associated with the Martial Arts.

Ryushikan,

Because you do not agree with several poster's opinions does not give you the right or authority to be disrespectful or antagonistic.  You continue to make smart aleck remarks, inuendoes and assumptions despite firsthand knowledge of any of us.   You seek to discredit people without having that firsthand knowledge and end up dicrediting yourself.  This is sad and is your loss.  I don't think anything I can say or add will satisfy you as you have a pre-conceived idea and an unwillingness to engage others in anyway that may promote fellowship.  That chip on your shoulder must indeed be heavy.  

Martialartist,

I'm not sure why you think my training is predominatly Japanese.  By and large it has a Chinese infuence, although it has a fair exposure to Japan, Israeli, Canadian and Great Britian.  I prefer the kyu/Dan ranking structure which is why I have chosen to include it.  It is proper Mandrine.  As for mixing/matching terms, I have seen no rule book that prohibits this.  If their is one then we need to address Korean Yudo, American Karate, Brazilan Ju Jitsu, and then there is the whole Agni situation.  I look at it as a tribute to those systems that I have been fortunate to train in as well as to those Grandmasters/Masters who have had a part in my development.  If someone differs in opinion on this that is fine.  But it does not diminish the system except perhaps to those who agonize over such things.  But then, those people are not amoung my students.  

Dac, Akja and others, I appreciate your kind words as well as your understanding of the content of my post.  Nobody likes everybody and some don't like anybody    I put them in prayer and move.  He who issues insults and antagonistic remarks suffers from low self-esteem and is to be prayed for and not hated.  

Peace and Love


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> Ryushikan,
> 
> ...



Still not going to answer the questions I asked I see.
Just so you don't have to go to the trouble of looking them up I will post them again. 

Schultz, 

You never did answer my question about who you got your 8th dan from in Pangainoon.
Since it is such a high rank it could only have come from a higher ranked source which would lead us to someone in Okinawa.
I will make it a real simple question so there is no confusion.
Who did you test for 8th dan with?
Since Pangainoon now uses Okinawan Kobudo which system of Okianwan Kobudo do you use?
Also, do you know the name of Pangainoon in Chinese?

You still have yet to supply a list of those names of teachers that teach Shuri-Te Ryu down in Okinawa. Who are they?

You mentioned the kata of Pangainoon before.

What are the names of the kata in Pangainoon?


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## Matt Stone (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Second, RyuShiKan, martial arts does not have anything to do with with country bashing, not if your for real. By the way, your "what we offer picture". WEAK! Looked like a typical AMERICAN Karate class to me! You've been trying to clown me???*



I invite you to train with RyuShiKan any time and reevaluate what you thought, based on still photos, to be "typical" American Karate...  Good luck - you'll need it.



> *When then martial arts came here, the terminology came with it. So the terminology is ours now. Theres other terminology that we have too. Tacos, burritos, you name it something from every culture is here and it isn't going to be the same as it is there.*



The terminology stemmed not from the art, but from the language of the person who trained in it.  When the language came along with the art to the US, arrogant monolinguals merely mimicked (poorly) the words they heard.

We have something in the US called "chilitos" also, but I doubt most Americans are aware of what that really means in Spanish...  Go ahead, next time you visit Mexico, ask to have a "chilito."  Be prepared to be laughed at as an ignorant boob.



> *The truth is our form may be lacking (compared to the perfect ones) but  WE ARE THE BEST FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD!!! *



If your form is lacking, then you aren't the best anything...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## DAC..florida (Feb 11, 2003)

I guess you recieved my reply from yesterday, you did a great job of picking it apart and taking everything from its original context so that you could attack it, therfore i will not respond to it.

There is still one question that i asked that you seem to be avoiding..............Do you ever add anything positive to this site or is it all negative?


Ryushikan...................you should open your mind, everything in this country has been adopted from another culture from our food to our language........................When it comes to the martial arts why should that be any different...........As you well know the people that have any heritage in this country our American Indians everyone esle and thier culture are foriegn................


My master once told me that close minded people can be compared with a frog living in the bottom of a dryed up well not relizing that thier is a whole world outside of that well.

maybe you should take a look at yourself and ask how deep your well is........................................Respectfully yours    DAC


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## Matt Stone (Feb 11, 2003)

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

"Waste to a thing is terrible a mind."

So now I am going to start teaching folks to speak the way that second sentence is worded.  It is "my way," and I like the way it works for me.  The traditional methods are too confined for me to express what I know adequately, so I am going to create my own way...

How much respect do you think I'd get for that drivel?

Can nobody else see the simple connections that make the arguments of some folks on this thread fall apart completely?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I guess you recieved my reply from yesterday, you did a great job of picking it apart and taking everything from its original context so that you could attack it, therfore i will not respond to it. *



Yeah right. Mostly like because you are out of your league and can't compose any sort of logical rebuttle.



> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *There is still one question that i asked that you seem to be avoiding..............Do you ever add anything positive to this site or is it all negative? *



Yes, I do. If you would bother to read ALL of my posts you would see that.





> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * As you well know the people that have any heritage in this country our American Indians everyone esle and thier culture are foreign*



Yes I know WE do. My mother is a Native American.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I invite you to train with RyuShiKan any time and reevaluate what you thought, based on still photos, to be "typical" American Karate...  Good luck - you'll need it. *



I get comments & challenges from sxxt talkers like him from time to time.........and the very few that actually do show up change their minds.


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## DAC..florida (Feb 11, 2003)

What tribe is your mother from? My mother is a full blooded Native American from the Narraganset Tribe in the new england area, my father is also 50% Narraganset.

The way that you have been bashing American "SOKES and GRANDMASTERS" and stating that westerners shouldnt use those words I had you mistaken to be of japanese descent.


What is your nationality?


Why are you so disgruntled and angry to see American martial artists founding thier own styles?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * The way that you have been bashing American "SOKES and GRANDMASTERS" and stating that westerners shouldnt use those words I had you mistaken to be of japanese descent.
> What is your nationality? *



USI think if people would look under my user name they would see a WWW which will take them to my website.not to mention my user profile lists my name which isnt even slightly asain.




> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> * Why are you so disgruntled and angry to see American martial artists founding thier own styles? *



I have nothing against Americans forming their own arts.
Its the constant bogus claims to Asian styles that dont exist or they never actually trained for very long.if at all, misuse/misinterpretation of Asian words, bogus ranks and titles etc that piss me off.
If someone just said hey I teach Fred style martial arts and made no claims as to any bogus Asian style or misuse/misinterpretation of Asian words I would say great.

Its the fact that they ALL have to claim some dubious crap to qualify them as legit and I have yet to meet any Grandmaster-Soke that was worth a crap.

I met a guy a few years ago that I really respect.
When I asked him what he studied he said he made his own art. Thinking oh no another one  he surprised me and said I dont call it anything, he made no claim to ranks of any kind (although later I found out he was a nidan in Judo) didnt use any asian term to describe what he did and was a pretty damn good MA to boot.


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## chufeng (Feb 11, 2003)

DAC,



> I had you mistaken to be of japanese descent.



Exactly...YOU were mistaken...YOU ***-umed...
You should have done your homework before commenting.

I saw many comments regarding RyuShiKan's "racist" attitude...
I don't know if it was you or someone else...I'd have to go back a few posts to see...but, regardless, THAT kind of commentary we can do without.

RyuShiKan is NOT a racist...he simply points out crap where he sees it...hopefully, those who are attentive can avoid the crap before they step in it.

BUT, there are many on this board who are undertrained and over-ranked who take issue with his approach...Too Bad...So Sad...but that's life...I do think it interesting that those who would challenge him are separated by THOUSANDS of miles...I've not met him personally, but one of my students trained with him for a while when in Japan...My student gives him two thumbs up...and that is GOOD enough for me...because my student is much like RyuShiKan, he questions EVERYTHING...

I think that I would have my hands full if RyuShiKan decided to come after me...and that's OK...because I don't claim to KNOW everything...I don't claim to be a SOKE (a very misused word) or anything like that...I would welcome any lesson RyuShiKan could offer...

In our system, we say that all learning begins with learning HOW to bow...have you learned THAT lesson? 

Regards,
:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Feb 11, 2003)

Is that like being courteous to others even in disagreement?  You are entitled to your opinions, but they are just that, an opinion.  Inuendo is not fact.  Quotes out of context do not represent fact.  Several of you get so angry that it clouds your mind's to even be courteous in disagreement.  It's a shame.  

Here is an example;  From my second post to my 3rd there were 30 posts inbetween.  Ryushikan comprised 1/3 of those 30 by himself in which he got himself quite worked up.  In fact to the point of insults, inuendos, flaming etc.  All of this because he is in disagreement with me on some issues.  Think about that for a moment.  Before I could even post back a reply to his first post to me he proceeded to lose his composure.  He worked himself into a frenzy without even allowing the opportunity to respond.  He has condemned me without even knowing me.  This is not a rational thought process.  This is not maturity.  He will see this as an attack, but it is not, it is based on his pattern of response to anything or anyone that conflicts with his view.  Over a span of ten posts he went from mildly abrasive criticism [no problem there] to simply making things up as he went or making antagonistic remarks or just being a smart aleck.  Without even waiting for a single response.  That is cause for concern.

There is a difference between being passionate and being obsessed to the point of abusivness.  His insults do not bother me, but it concerns me for his own benefit.  He was asked by me and the moderator to take conflict to email more than once.  He never did.  Perhaps he needs an audience that email would not provide.  Another warning sign.  Some of you need to do a self check as well.  This I would imagine will fall mainly on deaf ears, but I felt it worth mentioning.

It takes a bigger man to respectfully disagree with another and seek resolution.  It takes a small, weak man to continually seek strife.

I truly bid you peace, especially to those that need it the most.

Take care.


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## DAC..florida (Feb 11, 2003)

You must have confused with someone else,



I have never posted my current rank. 

I do not claim to be a soke, grandmaster, founder ect.

I am not challenging anyones credability in any way but like you said i do not know who ryushikan is but who is he to question someone that he does not know.

Unlike some people on this site i have done my homework. Ryushikans web site somehow links him to a shcool in Tokyo and in my opinion for him to be an instructor in Japan he must know his sh#t, but that gives him no right to bash people that he does not know. 

At no point have i refered to ryushikan as a racist.


And yes i am very humble and was taught respect and how to bow at very young age, my master always told me to show much respect to all but if you demand respect you must also give it . The first post i recieved from ryushikan and everyone since have shown me no respect.

                                                                Regards back to you....


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Is that like being courteous to others even in disagreement?  You are entitled to your opinions, but they are just that, an opinion.  Inuendo is not fact.  Quotes out of context do not represent fact.  Several of you get so angry that it clouds your mind's to even be courteous in disagreement.  It's a shame.
> 
> Here is an example;  From my second post to my 3rd there were 30 posts inbetween.  Ryushikan comprised 1/3 of those 30 by himself in which he got himself quite worked up.  In fact to the point of insults, inuendos, flaming etc.  All of this because he is in disagreement with me on some issues.  Think about that for a moment.  Before I could even post back a reply to his first post to me he proceeded to lose his composure.  He worked himself into a frenzy without even allowing the opportunity to respond.  He has condemned me without even knowing me.  This is not a rational thought process.  This is not maturity.  He will see this as an attack, but it is not, it is based on his pattern of response to anything or anyone that conflicts with his view.  Over a span of ten posts he went from mildly abrasive criticism [no problem there] to simply making things up as he went or making antagonistic remarks or just being a smart aleck.  Without even waiting for a single response.  That is cause for concern.
> ...


 


Blah, blah, blah.....Still not going to answer the questions I asked.
Just so you don't have to go to the trouble of looking them up I will post them again. 

Schultz, 

You never did answer my question about who you got your 8th dan from in Pangainoon.
Since it is such a high rank it could only have come from a higher ranked source which would lead us to someone in Okinawa.
I will make it a real simple question so there is no confusion.
Who did you test for 8th dan with?
Since Pangainoon now uses Okinawan Kobudo which system of Okianwan Kobudo do you use?
Also, do you know the name of Pangainoon in Chinese?

You still have yet to supply a list of those names of teachers that teach Shuri-Te Ryu down in Okinawa. Who are they?

You mentioned the kata of Pangainoon before.

What are the names of the kata in Pangainoon?


----------



## Matt Stone (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Unlike some people on this site i have done my homework. Ryushikans web site somehow links him to a shcool in Tokyo and in my opinion for him to be an instructor in Japan he must know his sh#t, but that gives him no right to bash people that he does not know.*



No, the website doesn't "somehow link" RyuShiKan to "a school" in Tokyo.  It is _his_ school.

Being an instructor in Japan equates with "knowing (your) *****?"  Not hardly.  You should see some of the yahoos that teach in Tokyo, native Japanese as well...  I hate to pop the insular American stereotype bubble, but Japan is really just like every place else - their martial arts community has just as many crackpot wannabes as any other place.  They have just as many frauds, just as many liars as any other metropolitan industrial nation.  They _do not_ have the corner on the market of ethical martial arts instruction.

His being an instructor and yondan under Taika Seiyu Oyata - now *that* means he knows his *****.



> *And yes i am very humble and was taught respect and how to bow at very young age, my master always told me to show much respect to all but if you demand respect you must also give it . The first post i recieved from ryushikan and everyone since have shown me no respect.*



Three things, DAC - 

First, you don't deserve respect any more than anyone else.  Another bubble I hate to burst (actually, one I love popping, especially where I work), but it's true.  You earn respect or you don't.  Personally, I don't concern myself with earning anyone's respect.  I say what I feel, call 'em like I see 'em, and shoot straight from the hip.  I am honest in how I deal with people, even when that hurts sometimes.  If I earn someone's respect in the process, so be it.  If I piss someone off, that's fine too.  But when I look in the mirror in the AM, I know I am true to myself and what I know to be right.  I was told long ago by someone I respected greatly "don't try to impress me.  Simply _*be*_ impressive."

Second, you should be careful who you call "master."  No religous motivations for that here, just a simple thought - those who are most in need of masters are those who are most ready to be made slaves.  I understand the way you intended to mean the word, but you should be careful nonetheless.

Third, you missed the entire meaning of what Chufeng meant when he said our first lesson is "learning to bow."  Think about how you would bow without bowing...  Therein lies the real meaning of bowing.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> * .I hate to pop the insular American stereotype bubble, but Japan is really just like every place else - their martial arts community has just as many crackpot wannabes as any other place.  They have just as many frauds, just as many liars as any other metropolitan industrial nation.  They do not have the corner on the market of ethical martial arts instruction. *



One thing we DONT have as many Soke  as the west though.

In fact the only Karate Kocho / Soke  I have come across here in Japan is Mr. Stun-Gun Castro who is pretty much a laughing stock.


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## chufeng (Feb 11, 2003)

DAC,

My comments were intended for general readership...I bounced off of your post more out of convenience than anything else...

I think I made it clear that I had no idea WHO posted the "racist" accusation...I did not mean to imply it was you...

Further, I never intended to insinuate that you claimed to be a SOKE...but one of the people you have defended on this board HAS made that claim...

If I've stepped on your toes in any of these posts, I'm sorry...

I think it interesting that just a few days after ZhaoDaiWei enters the scene with his (paraphrased) "I am here to offer guidance..." rhetoric...and then his claims to SOKESHIP...you show up from the same area of the country and with similar training background...

I am not accusing you...I have seen mostly positive stuff in your posts...but I do think that granting dan rank to someone who is not of your system is ridiculous (not that you've done that)...
So when you defend or appear to defend someone who's credentials are VERY CURIOUS...I wonder what your real affiliation is.

Regards,
:asian:
chufeng


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## Kirk (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I do think that granting dan rank to someone who is not of your system is ridiculous (not that you've done that*



I don't understand why anyone would *want* that?


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## Matt Stone (Feb 11, 2003)

I stand corrected.

With the exception of Hatsumi of the Bujinkan, I have only ever heard the title _soke_ used respectfully and rightfully in one other instance, that of Don Angier.

Everybody else has been suspected of being, and typically proven to be, questionable in their training and knowledge.

It is hard for the blind man to describe what the sighted man can see.  So the blind man believes his reality to be all that there is.  Only the sighted man has the ability to know both realities, and it is impossible to show the blind man the error of his beliefs.

For many people in MA, they are like the blind man - thinking their art, their training, their titles are the pinnacle of reality.  Too bad they are unwilling to try to understand things from the perspective of the sighted...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I stand corrected.
> 
> With the exception of Hatsumi of the Bujinkan, I have only ever heard the title soke used respectfully and rightfully in one other instance, that of Don Angier. *



There are several people in Japan that have the authentic title of Soke but are the heads of schools that date back 400~500 years and have been passed down through each generation. AND, not always to a family member.

I have yet to hear or see any of them refer to themselves as a Soke. It has always been used by someone that introduces them and even then used on rare occasions. 
About the only time I have ever seen it used in print is for the pamphlet given out at the Nippon Budokan for the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai or Nippon Kobudo Hozon kai demos.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *There are several people in Japan that have the authentic title of Soke but are the heads of schools that date back 400~500 years and have been passed down through each generation. AND, not always to a family member.*



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all of those individuals listed in the All Japan rolls dealing with legitimate ryuha from koryu traditions?

All of these folks can provide documentation of their inheritance of their arts as well, and they weren't given titles by a concensus vote of their "peers."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all of those individuals listed in the All Japan rolls dealing with legitimate ryuha from koryu traditions?
> 
> All of these folks can provide documentation of their inheritance of their arts as well, and they weren't given titles by a concensus vote of their "peers."
> *




That's correct. 

In fact there are several Ryuha that date back more than 800 years.
Another point is that ALL of them were "battle tested".
By that I mean they were used in life or death contests.....not merely bar room brawls or street fights but actually events where one or more of the opponents didn't get up........ever.
Although he never used the title Soke names like Miayamoto Musashi come to mind. He killed over 60 people by the time he was 30 and when he was 60 wrote that he was just lucky and didnt really understand the art of sword then.
Talk about humble.


I wonder how many American Soke  can lay claim to such contests..........


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## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *That's correct.
> 
> In fact there are several Ryuha that date back more than 800 years.
> ...



YOU THREE FOOLS REMIND ME OF 3 LITTLE B$$cHES.

JUST HOW MANY DEATH MATCHES HAVE YOU HAD?

 JUST BY YOUR TALK I KNOW YOU ARE A SORRY PIECE OF $H!T, FAKE A$$, CAN'T FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE FOOLS!!!!!


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *DAC,
> 
> I think it interesting that just a few days after ZhaoDaiWei enters the scene with his (paraphrased) "I am here to offer guidance..." rhetoric...and then his claims to SOKESHIP...you show up from the same area of the country and with similar training background...
> *




This may help you to understand why he posts........

From Phil's Field Guide to Trolls 
An Analysis of Forum Fauna 

Virtual Sensei 
How To Spot "Teachers" Worth Avoiding 

Sycophantic Student Support
The VS is a teacher, after all, and as such he or she has students. These students don't like cognitive dissonance any more than anyone else does, so they close ranks when their instructor feels threatened. Usually those who post in support of the VS have an extremely low post count, having only recently registered. The supporters may pretend that they do not know the VS personally. They certainly do not like to admit to being students of the criticized individual, as this (understandably) harms their credibility. 
I live in the same area and I train in the same art, but I don't know [VS in question]. His [or her] posts make sense to me, though. The rest of you don't know what you're talking about.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *YOU THREE FOOLS REMIND ME OF 3 LITTLE B$$cHES. *



Interesting observation. I wonder what Freud would say about that.:rofl: 



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *JUST HOW MANY DEATH MATCHES HAVE YOU HAD? *



Obviously you have never driven in Tokyo rush hour traffic.:rofl: 



> _Originally posted by akja _
> *JUST BY YOUR TALK I KNOW YOU ARE A SORRY PIECE OF $H!T, FAKE A$$, CAN'T FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE FOOLS!!!!! *



How I envy your powers over time and space


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Well thus far this has at least been an interesting character study
> 
> Interesting to note the lack of courtesy on the parts of some.  I believe that courtesy is one of the more admirable attachments that have been associated with the Martial Arts.
> ...


 


*Phil's Field Guide to Trolls 
An Analysis of Forum Fauna *

The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. 
When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree -- particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views -- Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." 

When cornered they are quick to resort to personal attacks.
When engaging in their sophistry, philotrolls are among the most hypocritical and aggravating of trollkind.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *YOU THREE FOOLS REMIND ME OF 3 LITTLE B$$cHES.
> 
> JUST HOW MANY DEATH MATCHES HAVE YOU HAD?
> ...




Virtual Sensei 
How To Spot "Teachers" Worth Avoiding 

Inappropriate Anger and Vulgarity
Legitimate teachers rarely resort to profanity, and the average school instructor will not lose his temper answering criticism from anonymous Internet denizens. Any man or woman secure in his or her art will shrug off baseless accusations. These men and women may also invite the critics to train with them, but their approach is much less hostile than that of the average VS. 

The VS, by contrast, can't stand to be questioned. Bullies are quick to anger, and martial arts frauds are insecure and easily threatened. When they find themselves cornered they will start swearing and making vulgar threats, often sending e-mail or private messages to their detractors. These messages would make a sailor blush, and often include explicit or implicit threats of bodily harm.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Feb 12, 2003)

*Administrator Warning*

Couple of points:

On the suggestion that some individuals may be 1 in the same:
Based on our logs, no.

On 'Sharp Phils Troll Guide:
Enough already....I've seen it quoted here so often I expect Phil to hit us with a copyright infringement or something.

On this thread in general:
Theres been a good amount of info, mostly done in a 'reasonable' way.  Given the 'heat' between certain folks, it is due to this information that we have let it go this long without 'getting involved'.

However....

RyuShiKan - Take your issues to email. It is obvious that the questions you have been harping on will not be answered, for whatever reason.

akja -  Typing in caps is considered rude on forums. Additionally, doing the $ trick to circumvent our profanity filters is against our policies. While I can understand being pissed, please don't do it again.


Most folks in these hot discussions have been within what we consider the 'acceptable' range here..that is the 'heated, but still respectful' or 'disagree in a mature manner'.

this is addressed to the few who weren't:
Y'all have a choice...
*Either figure out how to communicate in a reasonably professional way, or find your memberships revoked. *

This forum is for you to use and share. It is not a place for settling personal vendettas, or only open to a select few. There are hundreds if not thousands of arts out there, all with varying degrees of traditions, seriousness, and 'realness'.  Words change, techniques change, names change.  Theres an infinite number of ways to throw a punch, all with varying degrees of effectivness, control, and safety. 

The only constant here is change.  You can either contribute in a friendly, professional, respectful manner, or you can leave.  MartialTalk is a more laidback forum compared to some...please do not confuse our being laid back, to being lax.

I will leave you with this one thought: "Opinions are like ***-holes...everyone has one, and at some point, they always stink."

Now, play nice.

Thank you.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> * On 'Sharp Phils Troll Guide:
> Enough already....I've seen it quoted here so often I expect Phil to hit us with a copyright infringement or something. *




Next time I'll just post a link........



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> * RyuShiKan - Take your issues to email. It is obvious that the questions you have been harping on will not be answered, for whatever reason. *



Are you referring to questions about Zhao Dai Wei's claims to rank in certain styles?
I am wondering why I should.
My questions are legitimate and if he truly has the rank why doesnt he just post the information I asked for.....I find his lack of willingness to post that information speaks volumes.


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 12, 2003)

It's a simple enough request to make if some one claims rank they should be able to back it up with names and dates etc.

So, Zhou dai wei, we're waiting.

Mike.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * I will use myself as an example.  I have a Dan in Pangai-noon.   *



:shrug: really?



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *What is the Martial Arts?  Boil away the fluff and feathers and the pious attachments it is a means of injuring or killing someoneideally in defense of ones self, loved one or property. Thats the bottom line.   *




Actually no, and this is where your lack of linguistic skills does you in.
When look at the kanji for Bu you will see the kanji for stop and the kanji for Fight therefore Bu= Stop the fight. If you are aware of the linguistic intricacies you will better understand the concept behind the word. 
Therefore Budo is not about  injuring or killing someone. Its about life protection not life destruction.




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Maybe Soke originally meant founder and maybe it didnt.  I dont know, nor do I care. *



So you are using a word you dont know or care about the meaning of???
Then why do you use the title Soke ?




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *There are a BUNCH of folks who consider Soke to simply mean founder and nothing more.  People with far more experience and years in than I have, and probably more than 90% of the posters here. *



And who might these linguistically challenged people be?



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Highly respected organizations not only use the term butGASPissues it or honors individuals with it.  If it did not originally mean founderwell it does now and in a whole lot of countries!   Btw, my Sokeship was granted to me by my betters in Kobe, Japan and also recognized/recorded in Soul South Korea and Saudia Arabia.  *



Who are these betters in Kobe?
Can you supply us with some information on them?




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * If someone has little or no training and then opens up a school to teach and laugh all the way to the bank, then yeah, we can voice concern. *



I think that is many peoples point here.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * If a term is different or changed its meaning along the way, well it happens and not just in the Martial Arts. *



Why do you feel the need to use/misuse Asian words at all?
Then why not just call yourself bonehead if you dont really care about the meaning of the word you are using. In fact for me the title Bonehead in English now means Grandmaster-Soke in fact they are interchangable. So the moderators cant give me any grief if I use that title to describe you since it now means Grandmaster-Sokesomehow I dont think that is going to fly with them.


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## GaryM (Feb 12, 2003)

RyuShiKan, Could you post that link please? The one for Phils guide, thanx  in advance. Gary


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

Sure.

Phil's stuff cracks me up.....mostly because it's so damn accurate.

http://www.philelmore.com/profiling/profiling.htm


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## GaryM (Feb 12, 2003)

Zao Dai Wei, 
              We're waiting. Not holding our breaths mind you.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Administrator Warning
> 
> Couple of points:
> ...



Point taken!


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 12, 2003)

I want to be nice today!

Bottom line:

My karate brown belts date back long before my Jeet Kune do and BJJ.

I'm been well versed in JKD since the mid to late '90's. I was qualified by an outside organization on the Original Jeet Kune Do
as taught in Oakland based on what I was taught in Hayward and PROVED by my videos of my Sifu and myself while I was his student.

Most people know very little about JKD and have much advice to give about it!? They have a lot of info on JKDC but little on OJKD. I hate to use those terms because they should be one but you guys need it to be black and white.

I was given Full Instructor status in Jeet Kune Do. The sub-systems that came from Jeet Kune Do are a "basic" way of training JKD without actually going the full route of JKD. I've been over qualified in the sub-systems for several years.

But most importantly, if you yourself are not a prt of the JKD community, then you have no voice in it!  Plain and simple. You Are Not Qualifed!!


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## Matt Stone (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I was given Full Instructor status in Jeet Kune Do.*
> 
> 
> ...


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

Here is another 'point to ponder'...

This is specifically for Ryushikan.  And I will preface the question by saying that this is in no way a challenge or threat and is to be treated as purely hypothetical.  I am curious as to his response...

If I were to fly to Japan and challenge you, or, you fly to America an challenge me and we fought what would be the outcome.  Let me be more specific.  We are not in the ring, mats, deck etc al, we are in the parking lot with the concrete.  Ryu, would I stand any chance against you whatsoever?  There is a point here that I wish to make and it has nothing to do with net rambo bravado nor does it have to do with our previous conflict.  Would I have any possibility against you in real combat?  I'm curious as to your response and I thank you in advance.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Here is another 'point to ponder'...
> 
> This is specifically for Ryushikan.  And I will preface the question by saying that this is in no way a challenge or threat and is to be treated as purely hypothetical.  I am curious as to his response...
> ...



Thats a hypothetical question with only one way to know the answer.

Now how about posing that info several people have asked you for


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

> Now how about posing that info several people have asked you for



Already have.



> Thats a hypothetical question with only one way to know the answer.



So what is your answer?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Already have.*



 You haven't.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *So what is your answer? *



I just gave you answer. 

Thats a hypothetical question with only one way to know the answer.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

> You haven't.



Yes I have.





> I just gave you answer.





> Thats a hypothetical question with only one way to know the answer.



I would suggest that this is the wrong answer.  It does not embrase the winning mind set.  I don't say this to embarrass you but to perhaps give you something to think about.

Let me demonstrate.  Had you asked me the same question I would have immediately said, without any hesitation, that there is NO WAY on this planet you would defeat me in a real life/death confrontation.  I can imagine your blood start to boil at that comment...good!  It will hopefully help you to understand why I said it.  You CANNOT beat me!  It is NOT because I'm rambo, it is NOT because I'm arrogant.  It is NOT because I'm cocky.  It is NOT because I have a big, red 'S' tattooed on my chest.  It is because I have a disabled spouse and a young son at home that need me.  It is becuase of my fervent desire to go home to them at the end of my shift.  For me they take the priority therefore I cannot allow even the possiblity to exist in my mind of failure.  Defeat is not an option.  It is not permissible.  It is the mind set that I will prevail even if I'm hurt, stabbed, shot, stomped etc al.  

I would suggest that winning mind set to everyone here with what is personal to them.  I'm not talking arrogance here, I'm talking about not allowing defeat in one's mind because that leads to defeat on the battleground.  It leads to hesitation, fear, confusion and doubt.  You don't have time for that when it hits the fan.  When your jumped in the parking lot, when you awake to see someone enter your bedroom with a crowbar you need the mind set that this is about to be the worst mistake your assailant has made today.

The mission is to win, not survive, WIN!  The method is whatever it takes.  Call it Warrior's spirit or winning mind set.  I hope you understand this my friend...and never actually ever need it.

Same for everyone here.  Watch your six and stay safe.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Yes I have. *



You mean this? All I see is a diatribe and a non-answer.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Yes you do have questionable lineage, somewhere up the line there is going to be skeletons. It's admirable of you not to think so, but not very realistic. I have been 'checked out' by people such as GM Jack 'Pappasan' Stern, GM Yuri Kostrov, Dr. Mihal Pupsh and others. The KYHA has ties to not only Korea [Dong Koo Yudo Kwan] but to Japan [Kobe], Saudi and quite a few other countries. My Sokeship is recorded in Kobe with all the honku stamps etc. You live in Japan feel free to check it out. That is why I occasionally use the title in corrospondence and on the site. Right or wrong in your eyes. There are three Kata's btw in Pangai-noon. It found quite a home in the central temple. And I trained with Brad Barnett in the Military when stationed in Turkey at Incirlik AB. He was and is my superior...my better in this area. I was able to maintain a sporatic relationship with him for sometime afterwards but we have now gone our separate ways. He is a good man. *



Sorry please direct me to the name of the person you got 8th dan in Pangainoon, the person(s) teaching Shuri Te Ryu in Okinawa, the person & orginaztion you got a Soke title from in Kobeif there is a record of it then it should be easy to verify....I fail to see the answers in that post.
(BTW, it's Honko not honku......and a honko is a stamp.....so that's like saying a NIC card or a PIN number)




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Had you asked me the same question I would have immediately said, without any hesitation, that there is NO WAY on this planet you would defeat me in a real life/death confrontation. *



Well Soke I guess thats because you live in fantasy land and I dont.
Neither you nor I would know the outcome until it was over.
Tell me oh great Swamy.with your powers to see into the future who is going to win the next Super Bowl?



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * I can imagine your blood start to boil at that comment...good!  *




No, actually I found it funny.ridiculous but funny.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

You missed the whole point.  To bad.


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## DAC..florida (Feb 12, 2003)

If you do know the outcome of next years superbowl i would like to know also or better yet how about the florida lotto winning numbers for tonight!

On a serious note I agree that you must enter combat with the wining spirit, in doing so you will have a better chance of survival.

I would also like to encourage you to visit my thread on real life bad guys you sound as though you may have met a few.

I hate to play both sides of the field but...................................
Ryushikan is right about the fact that the only one who would know the answer to that question is the one who is still standing after the battle but unlike him i got your point!


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## sweeper (Feb 12, 2003)

I realy don't think ryushikan or most anyone else on the internet nead a short lecture on the psychology of winning or combat, not to jump an either side but I would like to point out that a good portion of the exchange has been quite meaningless, no offence intended (realy) just my observation.

Akja I am curious what you consider the diffrences between JKDC and OJKD. Regarding just the JKD element obviously..  I do practice JKD though I am not an instructor, I have not practiced with an OJKD instructor but from everthing I have read it should be pritty much the same as the JKD in JKDC, I mean there aren't any diffrent techniques and the training methods are the same right?

And one last quesiton directed at everyone or anyone who can give a good answer. Why do people say that if someone is insulting someone they have low self esteem? I hanv't seen any evidence presented of this, yes in specific cases it could be related to low self esteem but in genneral? To say anyone who is attacking someone else has low self esteem?


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## Marginal (Feb 12, 2003)

Wasn't his point that he'd always win (notice always rather than increasing his odds) because he wanted to the most?


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## chufeng (Feb 12, 2003)

You can't hit what isn't there...

That applies to the "hypothetical" and the real...
Like O-sensei said...get frimly behind the opponent's attack...

But given Zhao's latest posts...that would be cruel...

I'm done with this thread...

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Feb 12, 2003)

Thats to bad.  It's a shame several here miss the whole point.  I truly hope you never are in the situation to need it because victory starts with the mind....


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## Marginal (Feb 12, 2003)

Victory starts with the mind, but even a cornered rat can be stomped to death.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *If you do know the outcome of next years superbowl i would like to know also or better yet how about the florida lotto winning numbers for tonight!
> 
> On a serious note I agree that you must enter combat with the wining spirit, in doing so you will have a better chance of survival.
> ...




Oh I got his point.
The Germans and Japanese thought the same way he did during WWII..........and we know what happend to them.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 13, 2003)

Sweeper,
Like I stated I only used the terms OJKD and JKDC because for the thread you need to paint the picture. There is a differance for the most part between the Oakland and L.A. schools. Oakland is more Jun Fan Gung-Fu with the concepts but the concepts don't go to the extreme as does the L.A. school. 

But the truth is they are one. The two equal one whole. One can not exist without the other. If one school has Jun Fan but no concepts then it is just Jun Fan and not JKD and if one school has all concepts and no Jun Fan then it is not JKD at all. It is just someones made up techniques that they may call JKD.

All JKD is a process of learning and development in ones personal martial art journey. It begins by learning Jun Fan. Jun Fan is the tools of development, just the tools. You will learn the original curriculum as taught by Bruce Lee. 

But to complete the JKD process you have to hack away at your tools and remove the non-essentials. Use what is usefull and reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own.

THe "politics" of the JKD community is that little by little there is becoming less Jun Fan in JKD. Its correct to add what is your own but you don't just hack away all the Jun Fan. As the JKD tree grows more branches it becomes more and more of what has been added and less of the original.

Realisticaly, learning Jun Fan is the most effecient way to learn the "concepts." 

My Sifu has added what is his own, but he was taught by his father who learned it with a strong Wing Chun base from James Lee. And there are several guys from a school called Wing Chun Do that make it a point to train with my Sifu. Some of these guys he grew up with. So it was destiny for him to be more Wing Chun based than most of the others, and this is the way that I learned.

But I have and always will practice other arts also. So what is my art? Most JKD guys I meet and train with tell me that my JKD is good but I don't like the name of JKD. I prefer to say Jun Fan Gung-Fu so that people will know how I was trained.

There is more to JKD. There is not nough room here to write about it. Actually a lot of things can be JKD according to some people and they probably are right. But that would be "their" Jeet Kune Do, and not mine.


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## sweeper (Feb 13, 2003)

THANK YOU!

I think you are the first person I know of to flat out answer that question (or a simular one). Ok I understand where you are comming from than.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 13, 2003)

Your welcome, 

JKD has its problems like all arts, but I believe tht JKD(concepts) will be the last art of all time.


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 13, 2003)

The, "low self-esteem," argument is, to be sure, psychobabble.  From what I've seen, it's typically used by folks who've been behaving badly or for some other reason get called on what they've been up to--it's a lot easier to accuse somebody who asks embarassing questions, or in any way offers opposition, than it is to deal with the consequences of one's own behavior or to explain a fundamentally-illogical argument. In other words, I screw up; I get called on it; I accuse the person I offended of having some psychological problem.

So, for example, I once went and asked my neighbor to turn down the stereo--it was 3 AM, by the way--and got told that I was being "too sensitive," and, furthermore, inconsiderate of their rights.

It's related to other similar response to questions--for example, the response accusing the other guy of being pompous or overbearing because he or she said something I didn't like.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *The, "low self-esteem," argument is, to be sure, psychobabble.  From what I've seen, it's typically used by folks who've been behaving badly or for some other reason get called on what they've been up to--it's a lot easier to accuse somebody who asks embarassing questions, or in any way offers opposition, than it is to deal with the consequences of one's own behavior or to explain a fundamentally-illogical argument. In other words, I screw up; I get called on it; I accuse the person I offended of having some psychological problem.
> 
> So, for example, I once went and asked my neighbor to turn down the stereo--it was 3 AM, by the way--and got told that I was being "too sensitive," and, furthermore, inconsiderate of their rights.
> ...





Sounds pretty much on the money to me. 

I have always thought the, ""low self-esteem," argument" was a defense mechanism and used when someone is put on the spot.
I think it goes along hand in hand with the I feel for you argument where the poster is trying to deflect some of the attention away from himself by painting the accuser/questioner out to be some sort of disgruntled malcontent with a chip on their shoulder.
In both cases it is used as a defense against unwanted or potentialy embarrassing situations.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 13, 2003)

Since that is a belief I have always held true to, both as a civilian and as a soldier, here goes:

I began training in Yiliquan in October 1986 under the direct instruction of Sifu Phillip Starr (founder and headmaster of Yiliquan).

I trained until June 1987, when I went into the Army.

I was in the Army from June 1987 - May 1990.  During that time I continued to practice the forms and techniques I had learned during my previous training.  I practiced with people from Shotokan, TKD, Wing Chun and Drunken Kung Fu since they were the only people I could find that were worthy of spending time with.  I didn't learn their methods, we just provided each other with punching dummies.

I returned to training some time late in 1990.  I don't remember when.
In 1991 I was tested and promoted to Advanced Level 7 (two tests below Senior grade, or "black belt" level).

In 1991 I was authorized to begin teaching at a small class location by Sifu Starr.  I taught the class in tandem with another classmate, Tim Heuertz.

Sometime after that class terminated, I taught a class at a TKD school, and a class at a combined martial arts school called Dojo Omaha.

Our school closed and our teacher retired from teaching in 1992.

I reenlisted in the Army and returned to active duty in March of 1995.  I continued to train with the material I had learned to that point.

From 1995 until 1997 I taught at Fort Riley, Kansas.  I was the only martial arts instructor with an official class on the installation at that time.

In July 1998 I was tested by now _Sifu_ Tim Heuertz (who was senior to me and authorized to test me by our mutual teacher, Sifu Starr) to Senior Level 1 (black belt level).

In 1999 I was reassigned to Camp Zama, Japan.  In late 1999 I began teaching Yiliquan and a small Taijiquan class.  I taught until just before I left Japan in 2002.  I studied Shuri-te Ha Karate-do for about 2 - 3 months until the schedule simply became too difficult to manage with my work and home life.  I studied Modern Arnis under Guro John Lehmann from around October 2001 until just before I left in September 2002.  I began studying Ryu Te Karate under Sensei Robert Rousselot informally for the last few months before I left.  I have no formal rank in any of those styles at all.  I taught two Modern Arnis seminars in Gifu, Japan on behalf of Guro Lehmann, at his direction and authorization.

In 2000, Sifu Starr returned to teaching the previous Yiliquan students that remained in training after his retirement.  In November of 2000 I was promoted by Sifu Starr to Senior Level 2.

In September 2002 I was reassigned to Fort Lewis, Washington.  I continue training with Sifu Mark Hachey and his Yiliquan club in Puyallup, Washington.

Anybody else want to pony up with their details?  Since details are what are asked of some (and not forthcoming from others), I figured I would set the tone...  I have nothing to hide, and I demonstrate that by laying my cards on the table for any to question.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 13, 2003)

Yiliquan1,

I have to do this in 2 posts. I did it in word so I just have to copy and paste. But first I want to comment on yours and then I will put mine in the second post.

Don't take this wrong in the least bit because I'm going to look at it in a manner that is common around here.

Nobody else has responed yet! It takes guts to be the first as you did and I will be second.

Your training starts with less than one year of training actuall only 8 months. Then you practiced on your own for 3 years. 

Remember we are counting your actual class time. Everbody discounted my training that wasn't in an actual clas under an instructor. Evertime I was trying to explain what I did on my own all I heard was I never completed any of the arts. It was like everybody had earmuffs.

OK back to your training, so far you've got 8 months of class time under an instructor. So now from 1990-91, you received a year plus or minus of training from your insructor and toy were promoted to a level just 2 levels below black belt and permitted to teach a small class. So your nearing a black belt level and you only have 2 years of class time in.

You spent the next 7 years teaching although you didn't reach a black belt level and you only received 2 years of instruction. Then all of the suuden you get tested and promoted to a black belt level by your senior, in your system, not your actual instructor, but the same system.

Don't take this wrong. But you were only taught for 2 years max and you got promoted to a black belt level. What is the differance between your 2 year black belt and the ones that some people get after 2 years of training? I just said it. 

You were evaluated on your merit, period. Whether you trained for 20 years on your own or whatever, you still were only taught inyour art for 2 years max. 

So how could you have learned the rest of the system? You were evaluated on your accomlishments! I know you think that you practiced one art all that time but you aren't psycic, you could not of taught yourself something that you do not know!

This is the exact scrutiny that I received. But the differance between you and me. You were taught in class instruction only 2 years and received the equivalent of a 1st Dan. I had around 15 years of actual class time and was promoted to 5th Dan!

You see in between my 15 years of actual class time time I spent some time off, no doubt but I've spent much time teaching and training. My time in the arts spans over the last 30 years and my time teaching and training on my own adds up!


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## James Kovacich (Feb 13, 2003)

In my first karate class in1973-75 about 1-1.5 of years class time and I earned my purple belt in Kajukenbo under Bill Caspillo in Newark, Ca. He was getting old and passed the class to his younger brother Al. Al eventually closed the class.

In my second karate class in 1975-76 about 1 of year class time. Being a teenager I chose a school that was within walking distance and I started training in Hapkido under O Nam Ku in Fremont, Ca. I earned my green belt. He eventually closed the school. 

In my third karate class in 1976-1982  about 4 years of class time. At this time I started slipping up as I will explain. I went back to Kajukenbo in the Irvington district of Fremont, Ca in Charles Gaylords school. Even though it was Charlie Gaylords school, I was a student of Greg Lagera. I earned my green belt (2 belts from black). 

1981-82 As I stated I began slipping up. I was partying. No excuses. I was in and out of jail and did a total of 4 years incarceration. In the late 80s my sister married a 4th degree black belt (today he is a 6th degree) in Bujutsu Taiho under the late Tarow Hayashi of Hayashis martial arts in El Paso, Texas. I credit Rob Wilson, my brother-in-law and Instructor with helping me turn my whole life around. We became good friends before I became his student in 1990. My Japanese training actually saved me. Thats why even though Im basically a eclectic martial artist, I do speak up when people talk about the martial magictry and such. Learning to meditate and the discipline really changed me to become a decent human being. And today I am also a student of some traditional martial arts.

Now is a good time to note. During he 80s I was incarcerated a lot, but I wasnt totally away from the Martial Arts. I made several attempts to continue training in Kajukenbo. But my head was messed up and after 3-6 months I would disappear again.

In about 1992 I began crosstraining in Kobudo. Since this time I have been pretty consistent in training in 2 or more arts in the same day. I also credit my brother-in-law for introducing me to crosstraining. I was also exposed to Aikido and Judo although I wasnt ready for those arts at that time. I earned my first brown belt and 2 apprentice instructor certificates within Mr. Hayashis International Zen Martial Arts Federation of North America. For personal reasons I left the Newark Zen Bujutsukan in 1995 after 3-4 years of actual class time. 

My brother-in-law did much for me and out of respect to him I did not join another school right away and only trained on my own. Also my brother-in-law and former instructor has recognized my accomplishments since I went on my own and has recommended me to the Federation for promotion to Shodan. If he ever presents it to me I will accept it.

In 1997 I was introduced to Felix Macias Jr. of Hayward, Ca and I was his student in the Macias Method of Jun Fan Gung-Fu from 1997- 2000, close to 3 years of class time. The Maciases are very respectfully devoted to their Sifu James Lee and often referred to their art as being James Lee Gung-Fu. During my training under Felix Macias Jr., Felix started filming our training after I was there for about 5 or 6 months. He wanted me to be able to see my progression over time. So we filmed every few months and I have a little over 2 years worth of video of my training.

In 1998 I began training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu under Mike Jen in San Jose, Ca. I trained from 1998-2002 about 3.5 years of matwork. I call it matwork because I never tested although I became very good, not great, but good.

2001-2002- In this time frame several things happened to me. For a long tome I had already developed sensitivity in my arms from my JKD. But while practicing BJJ I had become aware that I had developed sensitivity in not just my arms but also my legs and essentially in my whole body.

In this time frame I began contacting several senior instructors across the country inquiring about building upon my past experiences and opening a school teaching traditional and eclectic martial arts under one roof. I have associated my self with 3 traditional instructors in 4 arts. I am learning Lou Angels Tenshi Goju Kai and George Alexanders Matsumura Shorin Ryu and Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu and George Kirbys Budoshin Jujitsu. All 3 senior masters are allowing me to test for black belt in the near future. My training in Bujutsu Taiho is not the same as but very similar to the Goju and Shorin Ryu. After verifying my credentials in the International Zen Martial Arts Federation of North America, George Alexander recognized my Ikkyu rank and brought me in as Ikkyu and allowing me to test for black soon. Of course the differences are significant enough that I need to train a bit, but that is exactly what Im doing.

In this same time frame I sent my JKD training tape of myself and Felix Macias Jr. to Carter Hargrave. Carter Hargrave is certified in Bushido Kempo and Jeet Kune Do under Gary Dill. Carter presently runs the World Jeet Kune Do Federation and the World Kempo Association. Gary Dill was a student in the Oakland Jeet Kune Do school. My Sigung Felix Macias Sr. has verified this to me. Gary Dill is the founder of Bushido Kempo which is an eclectic martial art that its techniques are derived from Jeet Kune Do. Carter Hargrave has done the same, by modifying the Bushido Kempo and creating American Combat Kempo. Bushido Kempo is an open ended system allowing it to be modified.

So now Carter Hargave has evaluated my training in Jeet Kune Do and promoted me to Full Instructor in Jeet Kune Do. I was honest with Carter about needing a base system to build off of to turn my teachings into a system of my own. He has known all along of my intentions and I am in good standing with him. He has promoted me to 5th Dan in his American Combat Kempo which is based on the techniques of JKD and he is confident that I am qualified to represent him and given me permission to build and modify and promote up to 4th Dan.

Bushido Kempo, American Combat Kempo and Atemi Kempo Jujitsu all are derived from the teachings of the Oakland Jeet Kune Do school minus the concepts. They are in no way traditional, thus promotion in these arts has nothing to do with achieving any black belt before moving on. I know that most people think that the new systems should follow the same path as the traditional systems, but that just wouldnt make any sense to me. Ive heard if it aint broke, dont fix it. Well if someone believes that their art needs no improvement, thats fine for them, just not me. Ive also heard that there isnt any new ways of doing things, so why have a new system. These people just havent had a chance to see the differences, thats all. I didnt say better, just different. I suspect that the person that made the last statement didnt understand that the techniques in Jeet Kune Do really are different. These 3 Kempo Systems come from Jeet Kune Do but they are really basic open ended systems. Open ended systems are systems that are intended to be modified by its practioners. This is true. You can go to Gary Dills website and read the description of Bushido Kempo.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Yiliquan1,
> Your training starts with less than one year of training actuall only 8 months. Then you practiced on your own for 3 years.*



Actually, going back over things, I started training in 1985.  Sorry about that!



> *Remember we are counting your actual class time. Everbody discounted my training that wasn't in an actual clas under an instructor. Evertime I was trying to explain what I did on my own all I heard was I never completed any of the arts. It was like everybody had earmuffs.*



I think the issue with your training on your own was that eventually it led to being certified in an art you didn't study.  At least that was what I got out of it...



> *OK back to your training, so far you've got 8 months of class time under an instructor. So now from 1990-91, you received a year plus or minus of training from your insructor and toy were promoted to a level just 2 levels below black belt and permitted to teach a small class. So your nearing a black belt level and you only have 2 years of class time in.*



Well, with the revised start date, I am looking at 3 years or so of training and only just reaching a low brown belt level.



> *You spent the next 7 years teaching although you didn't reach a black belt level and you only received 2 years of instruction. Then all of the suuden you get tested and promoted to a black belt level by your senior, in your system, not your actual instructor, but the same system.*



I didn't teach full time over those seven years.  I taught at the hospital for about 3 months or so, the TKD school was about 4 or 5 months, and Dojo Omaha was only a couple of months as well.  The class at Fort Riley was 2 years in duration before I was promoted to black...

I did train under Tim and another of our instructors periodically, going to them for corrections, additional techniques and forms, etc.  They supervised my solo training, though I did not actually train under their direct guidance.  Just clarifying, not defending against what you are saying - so far you have been pretty much on the money.



> *Don't take this wrong. But you were only taught for 2 years max and you got promoted to a black belt level. What is the differance between your 2 year black belt and the ones that some people get after 2 years of training? I just said it.*



The difference?  Perhaps from one perspective not much.  On the other hand, however, there were 3 years of instruction, and 9 years of practice...  That could make a difference, I think.



> *You were evaluated on your merit, period. Whether you trained for 20 years on your own or whatever, you still were only taught inyour art for 2 years max.*



No, not merit at all.  We have very firmly defined and documented requirements for advancement.  The test for Senior Level 1 alone is three pages long, and is a relatively easy test (compared to how they get afterwards!).  I took the test and was evaluated on whether I knew the information and whether I performed to the standards required.  If I didn't qualify for advancement, I would have been failed.



> *So how could you have learned the rest of the system?*



I haven't!  That is the thing of it (at least with Yili...).  Just because I have reached Senior grade, doesn't mean I have accomplished anything at all...  There is *so* much in front of me, I feel like I haven't learned anything at all!



> *You were evaluated on your accomlishments! I know you think that you practiced one art all that time but you aren't psycic, you could not of taught yourself something that you do not know!*



I didn't "teach myself" anything.  I practiced the information I had, went to my seniors to learn things I hadn't learned up to that point, and continued to practice.  The only "new" things I learned were insights into the "old" techniques I had been practicing...



> *This is the exact scrutiny that I received. But the differance between you and me. You were taught in class instruction only 2 years and received the equivalent of a 1st Dan. I had around 15 years of actual class time and was promoted to 5th Dan!*



Well, I agree and disagree...  If I remember correctly, your grade was given you by someone under whom you hadn't really studied, in an art similar to the one you studied, but not the one you studied...  Am I correct?



> *You see in between my 15 years of actual class time time I spent some time off, no doubt but I've spent much time teaching and training. My time in the arts spans over the last 30 years and my time teaching and training on my own adds up! *



I said early on that I had no first hand knowledge of what your technique was like, and I remember saying that it may well be of high quality - bottom line, until I see it in person I won't know.  I have no problem with someone learning a great deal during their own practice...  Sensei Sherm Harrill (may he rest in peace) trained directly under Shimabuku in Okinawa for only a few years.  Shimabuku told him "go and train for 25 years.  _Then_ teach."  He did, and he was awesome.  No problem with that.  But he was trained in, and graded in, Isshin-ryu.  Not Goju or Shuri, but Isshin-ryu.  I was trained in, and graded in, Yili.  Nothing else.

Nice post and nice examination of my training time.  Very objective.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 14, 2003)

No matter how anybody sees anything that we do, it does not matter. All that matters is where we go with our arts and what we do with them.

Neither I nor anybody I associate with sells certificates. Thats all that matters. You can go to some sites an order a certificate, that exists. But I am positive that if anybody tried doing that with anybody that I have associated myself with you will not receive a certificate of anykind except a general certificate that accepts you as a new member. Thats it. You may lose your money for trying to buy rank, but you won't get certified without evaluation.

The real question is: Who is qualified to evaluate and by what standards?

None of us here are qualified to tell some one they are evaluating wrong unless we have some kind of connection with them. If we don't, then we just don't know what they know, so its impossible to know they are wrong in how they evaluate! Everybodies standards are going to be differant and everybody is going to say their way is correct!

BUT I THANK YOU FOR BEING HONEST ABOUT YOURSELF!!!! 
At least you and I have that much in common!

Nobody else seems to wants to follow suit. If they don't, then for all I know I'm getting critisized by some pimply faced nerd white belt sitting at home behind his computer trying to be something that he isn't.

I've been totally honest all along. Maybe I don't express myself in a fashion that everybody will understand, but very few people in my eyes came at me right.

The only reason I even bother to explain anything to anybody I don't know personally is I'm in here offering my input so I should explain.

The same goes for everybody else who entered our conversations. Its time to fess up. Many people here attacked 1 individual in particular besides me about their rank. But none of these accusers have come forth and offered any detailed history of themselves. Forget the website links. 

"We" want to here it from your mouths with a timeline if don't mind!

Yiliquan1, thanx again for setting the stage!!


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## chufeng (Feb 14, 2003)

Prior to Yili, I studied both Judo and TaeKwonDo...I had five years of Judo and had attained the rank of Sankyu...Prior to these arts I wrestled and boxed (both of my brothers were Golden Gloves champions for ten years in a seven state region...John actually fought for the US team overseas...I regularly kicked his butt, but was not interested in competing)...none of those arts had what I was looking for...

I studied YiLi with Sifu Starr from October, 1982 thru June, 1986.
Then I joined the Army (for a second time)...
I trained at the kwoon 4 to 6 days a week and attended every "weekend intensive seminar" that was offered (5 hours on Friday evening...0730 - 2300 on Saturday...and 0730 to 1730 on Sunday), they were offered about three times a year. When I trained at the kwoon, I sometimes would attend morning and evening classes and would train for three hours at home, as well.

I also attended a number of seminars in other systems...
Oyata Sensei x 2...Nishiyama Sensei x 1...Fusaro Sensei x 1...Smaby Sensei x 5...

It seems like a short time (4 years) but when you add up the hours...it was the equivalant of maybe 9 years at a regular dojo.

Once I left Iowa, I trained for 3 to 7 hours every day...1986 to 1991...(during this time I also trained in Aikido and FutGar Kung Fu...I found those same elements in our system...)

I taught YiLi to anyone interested...many people came (mostly black belts), few stuck around...training is hard...and when it comes to meeting the "standard" for our system, I am a butthead. 

In 1991, I started my Master's program in anesthesia...I had to cut back on my training...but the time I put in up front paid off in spades...because, even though I'm a broken down fat fart now, I can still whoop Yiliquan1's butt  

At any rate...the secret to skill in any art is simply HARD WORK...
I am as much a student now as I was when I walked through the
doors of Sifu Starr's school back in 1982...

There it is...pick away at it, as you see fit.

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Feb 14, 2003)

> There it is...pick away at it, as you see fit.



Why would anyone wish to pick apart something that is personal to you?  Which has meaning to you?  If you are satisfied with your training, and your student's are satisfied with you as an instructor...is that not what counts?

To me it sounds as though you have some practical experience to share.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Why would anyone wish to pick apart something that is personal to you?*



To provide external, objective commentary about it.



> *If you are satisfied with your training, and your student's are satisfied with you as an instructor...is that not what counts?*



Well, maybe some folks are content with being "satisfied with their instructor," but if they are new in martial arts and can't make heads nor tails of the training explanations their instructor provides, then how objective can they be in determining their instructor's worth?  If the instructor knows more than the student, of course the student will be satisfied (more or less) with what they are being taught...  But how can they separate the legitimate training under the watchful eye of a qualified instructor, personal training and practice, and imaginary qualifications that are nothing more than window dressing from each other without complete disclosure?

In the court of public opinion, though not so in a court of law, failing to testify fully on one's own behalf *is* considered to be indicative of some sort of guilt...



> *To me it sounds as though you have some practical experience to share. *



He most certainly does!  He is one of the most knowledgeable broken down old farts I know! (That'll probably get me smacked around extra this weekend...   )

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (Feb 14, 2003)

> To provide external, objective commentary about it.



Well now thats the thing isn't it.  But who's to say the commentary is objective?  If he is satisfied then what matter is it if someone comes in with negative opinion.  He has to look at himself in the mirror, no one else.

What is sound to someone is not to another.  But it in no way invalidates the soundness just because another thinks so.  It is all an opinion.

If I say to you that your instructor is great...does it make him great?  If I have a derogatory opinion...does it make it true.  It is all subjective.  Lets say he is a good instructor and has sound technique, but he goofed up somewhere in his life.  If I pull that out of the closet to parade around, does it invalidate what he knows and what he has taught you?





> Well, maybe some folks are content with being "satisfied with their instructor," but if they are new in martial arts and can't make heads nor tails of the training explanations their instructor provides, then how objective can they be in determining their instructor's worth?



We have all been there in the beginning.  We were all newbies.  And there is a 'sucker born every minute'.  But there are also resources available to check someone out.  Asking to see the qualifications, certifications etc.  Lets be quite honest, ANY of our certificates can be copied.  It is the person not the paper that matters.

If you went to someone with absolutely no documentation whatsoever, but they could fight, train and teach and it appealed to you, would you go?  Sure, most of us would.  On the flip side, someone with credentials can be honest and forthright and also be excellent.  Reputation carries alot.  

The whole point is unless I personally know chufeng, and have firsthand knowledge about him good or bad...do I need to open my mouth against him?  To me even second hand knowledge is iffy because you have to consider the integrity of the source of that information.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Well now thats the thing isn't it.  But who's to say the commentary is objective?  If he is satisfied then what matter is it if someone comes in with negative opinion.  He has to look at himself in the mirror, no one else.*



And that is a convenient argument for folks who refuse to acknowledge that regardless of individual expression, there still remain certain standards in every walk of life, every vocation, every avocation.  Those standards are typically determined by a concensus of the group in question, and the concensus here seems to be that rank granted by organizations outside the one you belong to, or rank granted by teachers other than those from your own system, is questionable at very best.  

So the argument above is very convenient to help the person with a potentially questionable background validate him/herself when looking in the mirror, faced with the judgement of the group.



> *What is sound to someone is not to another.  But it in no way invalidates the soundness just because another thinks so.  It is all an opinion.*



Please refer to above comment regarding standards being set by a concensus of the group, not by individual tastes.



> *If I say to you that your instructor is great...does it make him great?  If I have a derogatory opinion...does it make it true.  It is all subjective.*



Exactly.  But you are only one person.  If you have a concensus of a group deciding that something is the standard for evaluation of a particular thing (in this case martial arts credentials), then that group opinion, for good or ill, becomes the standard.  It is then no longer subjective, but objective.



> *Lets say he is a good instructor and has sound technique, but he goofed up somewhere in his life.  If I pull that out of the closet to parade around, does it invalidate what he knows and what he has taught you?*



It doesn't invalidate his teaching, and only validates that he is human and fallible like the rest of us.  A martial arts instructor, regardless of the divine rank he/she may have, is still human and flawed.  Even if a person has deity-like rank, it is still entirely possible that their rank, their system, and all the pseudo-knowledge they have skillfully taught so hundreds of thousands of talented students is still just so much crap. 



> *We have all been there in the beginning.  We were all newbies.  And there is a 'sucker born every minute'.  But there are also resources available to check someone out.  Asking to see the qualifications, certifications etc.  Lets be quite honest, ANY of our certificates can be copied.  It is the person not the paper that matters.*



But when the individual in question claims certifications registered in places, and those places are investigated for authenticity and found lacking, then the paper begins to mean even more and the person is caught in a less than favorable light no matter how nice they may seem...

A quote from Tolkien seems fitting here - "I thought he would seem fairer and feel fouler."  Just because someone appears, on the surface, to be kind, legitimately certified, honest and true, doesn't make it so.



> *If you went to someone with absolutely no documentation whatsoever, but they could fight, train and teach and it appealed to you, would you go?  Sure, most of us would.  On the flip side, someone with credentials can be honest and forthright and also be excellent.  Reputation carries alot.*



If I wanted to train with a boxer, I wouldn't expect to see a stack of rank certificates.  But I could check out who he trained with, how many fights he had, how many he won.  Those are his certificates.  If I train with a martial artist, there better be paper.  If the paper claims X through Y organization, I better be able to verify it.  If I can't, or the trail runs cold, then I am going to have questions, and no matter the reputation I will certainly be wary.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *And that is a convenient argument for folks who refuse to acknowledge that regardless of individual expression, there still remain certain standards in every walk of life, every vocation, every avocation.  Those standards are typically determined by a concensus of the group in question, and the concensus here seems to be that rank granted by organizations outside the one you belong to, or rank granted by teachers other than those from your own system, is questionable at very best. *




Hence the function of the American Medical Association and American Bar Association I guess.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

Something like that...

The AMA says that acupuncture is nothing more than placebo _or_ endorphins...  So for better or worse, that's the concensus.

Whatever.  Moot point for some folks, I guess.  Folks are going to believe whatever they want to believe.  If they think their particular martial art variant is 6,000 years old and directly descended from the Island of Mu, then that is exactly what they are going to believe, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## GaryM (Feb 15, 2003)

If I can argue a point very well you may want to have me speak for you or give you advice pertaining to winning an argument. If I try to convince you that I can argue well because some people who are lawyers say that I argue like a lawyer does not mean that you should think that I can teach you to be a lawyer. And It sure as hell doesn't mean that you would have me defend you in court or give you legal advice. Look I've heard your argument before on other threads. If I can do it and teach it then what does it matter it's all good. Once upon a time the founder of any martial art had no title so it only matters what you know. O.K so once upon a time some one who was a truely successful badass survived many fights and gained a reputation, then he taught others how to fight and they were recognised as a great fighters and they credited thier ability to thier teacher and these men were able to teach this knowledge to others and so on. As people added to and modified the teachings the methods that this first teacher taught became refined and the reputation of the abilities that the students of this system acquired became acknowledged.  Now a days people are innundated with information and when they seek knowledge they want to have  some standard to judge the knowledge that is being presented. I.E. a lawyer with a Harvard degree has more credability than say some one who a few noted lawyers admit can argue well. You base your credability on psuedo credentials that you are not will ing to produce, so you will be attacked.  The mere fact that you do this is a red flag. Just a thought , if I put a few more stripe on my belt and go to a seminar with high ranking martial artists the fact that none of them asks me to take my belt off or prove my ranking doesn't mean that they 'recognise' my abilities.


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## sweeper (Feb 15, 2003)

as an example (sort of) of what garym said, if you lok at these various threds where lineage is in debate, when people have been discussing the lineage of any of the arts studied (by the given people) they have discussed the ability of their seniors and their training. That is to say it doesn't matter if there is a lineage and someine gave the rank to someone else over 400 years, it could be a lineage of BS for all an ignorant person could know..  So every relevant step (resent instructors in line) is questioned and the combined reputation of the instructors in addition to the ability of a teacher is what genneraly what people judege skill by.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> *as an example (sort of) of what garym said, if you lok at these various threds where lineage is in debate, when people have been discussing the lineage of any of the arts studied (by the given people) they have discussed the ability of their seniors and their training. That is to say it doesn't matter if there is a lineage and someine gave the rank to someone else over 400 years, it could be a lineage of BS for all an ignorant person could know..  So every relevant step (resent instructors in line) is questioned and the combined reputation of the instructors in addition to the ability of a teacher is what genneraly what people judege skill by. *



I dont think the whole argument was about lineage, at least not from me anyway.
My point was if you are going to make claim to titles and ranks be prepared to show them or prove your claims. 
You dont see me going after JKD, American Kempo guys because their arts are somewhat new. Funny thing is I dont remember Bruce Lee every claiming rank.
When I lived in China I never heard any MA people talk about rank so youll have to excuse me if I decide to question someone that claims to be a Soke ( a Japanese word BTW) of a Chinese art he developed after never studying any Chinese art.. red flags start to pop up even more when he is asked about certain arts he claims to have high dan rank in but doesnt actually know how many kata are in the system. I know I am just a dumb Cajun that fell off the Gumbo boat but that strikes me as odd.

Its the people that make the claims to bloated rank, Soke titles and so on that I call into question. They could be good or bad martial artistsI could care less.
I have met many of these self-appointed Soke or their high ranked students and not once have they ever been able to do any decent technique on me or my students.
In fact most of what they do is pure crap.
I am not trying to sound macho or say my style is better than everyone elses, in fact if you look at any of my posts and I hardly ever mention my training or my style, and only do so when asked about something, but when something works I have no qualms about saying so.
Yiliquan1 and I have worked out on numerous occasions and he has some awesome technique. I have just recently worked out very briefly with a gentleman who competes in Sambo/Gracie Jujutsu type events and if Im not mistaken was Senior Mens Champion at one point. Great guy, great technique, I have no idea what rank he is. He didn't say. 

There are 2 Chinese chung yu ( for the meaning of chung yu see below)that come to mind when I see these Soke and bloated rank types.

You ming wu shr = have name lack reality = A mere name, a fraud.

Hwa She tyan dzu = draw snake add feet = unnecessary embellishment 

(A chung yu is a Chinese idiom that consists of 4 kanji )


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## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Yiliquan1 and I have worked out on numerous occasions and he has some awesome technique. *



By "awesome technique," he means I get my *** kicked really well...  Nobody can get their *** kicked quite as well as *I* can, and I question the ability of _anyone_ here to be able to have their *** handed to them quite as well as I can have mine handed to me...

Thank you very much.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Aegis (Feb 15, 2003)

I'm sure if I picked a fight with either of you, I'd do fairly well at getting my *** handed to me. In fact, in the time it took me to recover, you could hand it over on a plate with a salad dressing on the side.

I felt I had to butt in here because I feel that my ability to get beaten in a fight has come into question. I will quite happily stand here and yell out as loud as I can that everyone can beat me in a fight, but no-one's allowed to try in case I accidentally win, ok?


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## Matt Stone (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *I'm sure if I picked a fight with either of you, I'd do fairly well at getting my *** handed to me. In fact, in the time it took me to recover, you could hand it over on a plate with a salad dressing on the side.*



I feel I must make a stand on behalf of all those with whom I have trained (a long and respectable list, I might add), martial luminaries who have delivered *** handings the likes of which simple people like you and so many others on this board could never aspire to...

I have been beaten in the most glorious ways imaginable.  My skill at being beaten rivals that of the worst students of the great masters of old!

I hereby proclaim a standing challenge to any and all comers that I can be beaten far worse/better than anyone else at all!  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2003)

I heard someting in here about Bruce Lee not claiming rank.

True. But he gave it out. 

He awarded 3rd rank to Taky Kimura, James Lee and Dan Inosanto. I'm not positive who got what first. I don't care. 

Bruce gave up on giving rank. 

He awarded several other ranks to other people below 3rd rank.

He awarded 2nd rank to Ted Wong. 

Bruce was Ted Wongs first and only instructor. It has been proven through Bruces personal notes that Ted Wong had something like 22 months of instruction, a lot of it being personal instruction.

Ted didn't make it to 3rd rank, yet he is sought after around the world for seminars being recognized as a true master.

I know the real answer but I want to here from some people in particular.

My Question Here Is For The Tradionalist!!

Bruce Lee, was not certified himself. So all of the systems and instructors that came after him (with lineage to him), are they legitimate instructors and systems?

Here are just a few examples:

Ted Wong coming to Ottawa April 5&6, 2003 

Ted Wong will be conducting a two day Seminar. 
Location: DRAGON TREE 
1111a Wellington Street 
Ottawa, Ontario 
For more Info on Cost/Times 
E-mail: dragontree.jeetkunedo@bellnet.ca 
Phone: 1-613-761-8090.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.academyjkd.com/
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.jerrypoteet.com/
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.oaklandjkd.ws/


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Prior to Yili, I studied both Judo and TaeKwonDo...I had five years of Judo and had attained the rank of Sankyu...Prior to these arts I wrestled and boxed (both of my brothers were Golden Gloves champions for ten years in a seven state region...John actually fought for the US team overseas...I regularly kicked his butt, but was not interested in competing)...none of those arts had what I was looking for...
> 
> I studied YiLi with Sifu Starr from October, 1982 thru June, 1986.
> ...



Why would anyone pick apart your training. You put in 5 years in Judo and received a brown belt. You put in 4 years in a hybrid art which presents itself as traditional and you have alot of training besides that.

I read solid training! 

The only thing you left out was who and where and how you received permission to teach at an instructor level. Which most definately matters to several people in here!


Also I see some of you personally know each other. to some when you guys push your opinions it would seem like tag teaming. Of course if you guys have something in common and you see someone preaching something differant you will speak up. I'm just saying I understand why several of you have the same or similar opinions, thats all.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2003)

Here is a couple examples of receiving rank from an organization other than your own without anyproof of training under them with the exception that Ed Parker was Adriano Emperados student for about 2 weeks before he became William Chows student. That 2 weeks however are not valid because it was 2 weeks as a beginner!

I know this because long I was JKD, I was Kajukenbo. Ed Parkers high rank did not come from William Chow.
I'm only speaking about his 8th degree. It came from adriano Emperado the founder of Kajukenbo. Emperado was qualified to give this rank but the question re-appears.

William Chow is still alive but Ed Parker gets a high rank from Emperado. 

Also Adriano Emperado received his high rank from someone other than William Chow. See for your self:

http://www.ohiokajukenbo.com/cgi-bi...?board=hist_gen

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
x

CN: Kajukenbo has a lot of kung fu elements, did you also train in kung fu? 

EMPERADO: Yes, in my 30s I also trained in various forms of kung fu under , Professor Wong, and Professor Lau. It was several years later that these Professors and the Hawaii Chinese Physical Culture Association awarded me the title of Professor, 10th degree. I was also awarded a certificate by Grandmaster Ho Gau of Hong Kong appointing me as an advisor and representative of the "Choy Li Fut" system. This certificate was signed by Grandmaster Ho Gau, Professor Cheuk Tse and the directors of the Hawaii Chinese Physical Culture Association. 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxx

CN: How well did you know Ed Parker? 

EMPERADO: Before he started training with Professor Chow, Ed trained with me for about 2 weeks. While he was with me he took the first 8mm movies of the Palama settlement training. I knew him for many years. At times when I was in California he would have me as his guest of honor at the Long Beach Internationals. After Ed left Hawaii he became estranged from Professor Chow. It was Ed who brought kenpo to mainland America, made it popular, and made so many contributions to the art, so in the late 60s I promoted him to 8th degree black belt.


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## Kirk (Feb 15, 2003)

Lots of people claimed to teach this person or that.  Yet they 
made the claim after the person has passed.  The fact that he
claims that he was his student for 2 weeks doesn't jive with any
of SGM Parker's readings that I've read.  He started his training
with William Chow's brother, according to Mr Parker's own words
in Infinite Insights, and his brother gave him a personal 
introduction to William, when Mr Parker's abilities were as good
as his teacher's.  Mr Parker made no mention of Adriano 
Emparado teaching him.  

As to being given an 8th.  That I don't know, specifically, but he
sure as hell wasn't the only one to do it.  Many do such things in
order to swindle themselves more students.  Just because it's 
offered and accepted doesn't mean that the one who accepted it
gives a flippin' darn about it, displays it anywhere, or even claims
it.  The pure fact of the matter is that Mr Parker, with Chow's 
blessing started what he felt was a new art, and eventually for
that reason (and for business reasons) he declared himself as a
10th degree, Senior Grandmaster of American Kenpo.

Doc, if you're still reading, you can attest even more on this
subject ... please do.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Lots of people claimed to teach this person or that.  Yet they
> made the claim after the person has passed.  The fact that he
> claims that he was his student for 2 weeks doesn't jive with any
> ...



Doc, knows the truth and if he chooses to say differant, then he should offer something to prove it.

He attacked my credibility, my point is its simple to understand that all martial arts have some dirt in their history.

The real point is that even "our senior masters" have received rank from outside organizations. In these cases, if they had not, then American Kenpo for example would not have all these 10th Dans or for that matter probably there wouldnt be any above a rank of somewhere around a 7th dan that wasn't self promoted.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

Yiliquan1,



> And that is a convenient argument for folks who refuse to acknowledge that regardless of individual expression, there still remain certain standards in every walk of life, every vocation, every avocation. Those standards are typically determined by a concensus of the group in question, and the concensus here seems to be that rank granted by organizations outside the one you belong to, or rank granted by teachers other than those from your own system, is questionable at very best.



The consensus here is the key point in this passage.  Your talking about a hand full of people, who know each other, butting heads with others.  Thats not a consensus.  Thats chit-chat.  Organizations have been doing this from the beginning as I have indicated in previous posts.  Sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.  But it has been done long before you and I got here and will be done after we are gone.  Folks here can debate the issue intelligently, and a few here can go on a temper tantrum...but it is not a consensus of what goes on in the real world and is inmaterial anyway.  Your displeasure with it is pretty meaningless.  And your displeasure does not invalidate what a person knows and can teach.

Some of you folks get so upset over things you have no knowlegde of, can't control and can't change    You act like the MA's is something more than it is.  It's basic function is self-protection, it is that simple.  Everything else is window dressing.  The ONLY thing that counts is can you defend yourself in a real fight, a real life/death situation.  You can debate forms and techniques and this and that...doesn't matter except in the dojo where people are concerned with such things.  Real Bg's aren't interested in your forms or historical knowledge.  

You guys think I'm questionable.  So?  You lost your mind over the word Soke.  You lost your mind over Dan rank.  You continue to make inuendo and allegations....but never once backed them up.  So I say to you and your friends...back it up.  Prove that I have not been awarded a Sokeship from Grandmasters.  Prove that I do not have an 8th Dan in a style.  Prove I have not been in combat against real Bg's as I have stated.  Prove that my student's aren't VERY well trained.  

Someone here has a problem that I choose a Chinese style name for my system...so?  You guys can continue to be as nasty as you like.  For all your posts, for all your inuendos, for all your allegations...it is only your opinion and doesn't mean anything.  Doesn't affect my training or my teaching.  I has provide great entertainment value though    

Soke is used all over the world.  Like it or not.  Your like or dislike is inmaterial and I suspect that is why you get so worked up about it here.  It has blinded you and thats a shame.  Your words on a computer screen are just that...words.  And once again you are entitled to your opinions its just a shame you can't express those opinions nicely...or back them up.

Have a nice day [opps there I go being nice again  ]


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> Some of you folks get so upset over things you have no knowlegde of, can't control and can't change  *



You mean like the FACT that there is no such organization in Kobe that you claim to have registered your bogus Soke title with.
You mean like the FACT that you claim an 8th dan in a system and didnt know how many kata were in it.
You mean like the FACT that you use the word Soke incorrectly. Please show me the Soke in an American English Dictionary.
Id say you are the one that lacks knowledge if anybody.





> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *You guys think I'm questionable. *



I dont think..I know you are and proven you to be.




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * You continue to make inuendo and allegations....but never once backed them up. *



Speaking of BACKING things up.give us those name of teachers and organizations..no extra information or excuses. Just names and dates.




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> * So I say to you and your friends...back it up.  Prove that I have not been awarded a Sokeship from Grandmasters.  Prove that I do not have an 8th Dan in a style.  Prove I have not been in combat against real Bg's as I have stated.  Prove that my student's aren't VERY well trained.  *



Its easier to prove something exists than does not.
SO, why dont you pop those dan ranks and Soke-doke titles up here so we can have a peak at them. 
That is unless you have something to hide..or you really didnt get them.




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *  I has provide great entertainment value though    *



Yes you has..and you has been a perfect example of what people should avoid in their martial training.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *  Soke is used all over the world. *



True, and more often than not it is used incorrectly by frauds  that have little understanding of the meaning.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *  Have a nice day [opps there I go being nice again :] ] *



You are hardly nice.
You are one of those guys that tries to play to the lurkers hoping to get their support for your defense.
Guys like you will post paragraphs slamming your opposition and then say something hypocritical.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

You speak alot of fact...but post opinion.

I have a Sokeship certificate that clearly states Kobe, Japan on the bottom with the stamp.  The rest is in Japanese.

I have a certificate from Dong Koo Yudo Kwan in Korea.

I also have a Sokeship certificate from Saudia Arabia.

There have only been 3 kata in Pangai-noon, at least in the system I was taught.  Funny how if there 'were' a fourth one that Kanbun was not taught it somewhere in his ten years of training and 3 years of teaching.  You would think they could have slipped it in there somewhere in Fukein.

As I said several times before, perhaps Soke doesn't mean founder originally but it sure does now.  Not for me alone.  Seems quite a few people all over the world use it in this fashion.  They do not seem to be to overly concerned with your disaproval, or anyones elses for that matter.  And it doesn't effect their abilities in the slightest...or mine.

So no....you have PROVEN nothing, except that courtesy is a foreign concept to you.

The burden is on you however and here is why;  Between my 2nd and 3rd post you rambled on in rapid succession for 10 posts in which you ranted and raved and accussed and attacked.  I didn't have the fair opportunity to reply even to your first one...and you know that.  You cannot deny that.  So since you have convinced yourself without ever waiting for me to respond you must have solid evidence to back up your inuendos and accusations.

If you don't your either a blowhard or a liar or a combination of the two....

Which is it?  Statements like this..



> Its easier to prove something exists than does not.



Are a cop out.  Its hand-waving at it's best.  Since you accused me, and covicted me without waiting for even one response from me lets see ALL the proof you have prior to my 3rd post....

I won't be holding my breath either cause we both know your full of it and just trying to stir the pot  

And all your belly aching doesn't change my training or my teaching.  I think thats what really burns you up.

I hope your blood pressure doesn't pop your head off after this....

Lets see ALL the proof for your lip smacking that you had prior to my 3rd post.....

Peace and love


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## chufeng (Feb 15, 2003)

AKJA,



> The only thing you left out was who and where and how you received permission to teach at an instructor level. Which most definately matters to several people in here!



Sifu Starr had an instructor's program...just being a senior level student (black sash) didn't mean you could teach...you also had to complete the instructor's course and must have assisted in teaching junior students under his supervision...The instructor's course was open to anyone who had made it to yellow sash (equivalent to a green belt) but you weren't awarded an instructor's cerificate until after your first senior promotion...the course lasted 2 years...it was training in addition to your regular classes...I was awarded my instructor's certifcate in May of 1985.

Sifu would not let you operate a school until you had achieved second level black sash...and then only under the direction of a regional director who was a third level black sash, or better.
At the first level black sash, you could teach in a YiLi school, but could not be the head instructor.

When Sifu came out of retirement, he established the YiLiQuan Association...The Association certifies any rank awarded and also issues a license to operate a club or school and is renewable annually...this helps prevent "rogue" schools from popping up...we've had a few renegades (people who were awarded rank by someone NOT qualified and who did not complete instructor training) and have had to "convince" them to stop using the YiLi emblem and name...we do our best to stop fraud (when it involves the YiLi name) whenever we find out about it. I currently am regional director for the Northwest region.

Mainly, I remain a student of YiLi...every time I workout with the Northwest group, I learn something new...the depth of our art makes true mastery unlikely...There are three seniors in the Northwest region and not one of us gives a damn about our rank...last week I wore a blue belt; today, I wore a white belt...it just doesn't matter...

I do think that there are way too many self-promoted grand masters in the U.S.; I further believe that some schools will promote you to a level you aren't ready for (as long as your wallet can cover it)...I also see several internet sites that offer "certification" of rank for a fee...I've met many black belts from other systems who have clearly had solid training...I've also met a number of "black belts" who claim extremely high rank who clearly are NOT what they claim to be...

I agree with Mike Clarke; one should really explore the depths of an art fully before looking for rank in another system...it's one thing to work out with other disciplines to help you understand your own art better...it's another to jump from art to art without really getting at the heart of any of them...

regards,
:asian:
chufeng


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## GaryM (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Zhao Dai Wei...  Sounds like Catonese...  In other words, bad Mandarin.  In fact, it sounds like VERY POOR Catonese.  Why would someone who has roots from mostly Japanese systems use a Chinese name? *


 This is why I have been rather harsh in reguards to this poser. It is not chinese or any other language. Sound it out.  Zhao Dai Wei='Show de way' It is a joke.  What does the rest of you think? I don't think this was accidental. How can we take this guy seriously?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> I have a Sokeship certificate that clearly states Kobe, Japan on the bottom with the stamp.  The rest is in Japanese. *



And yet again you fail to suppl y the requested info.
A NAME to go with that organization if you would be so kind
surely you must know the name of such an organization that would give you such a title.



> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *I also have a Sokeship certificate from Saudia Arabia. *



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

Youre joking right..

Now you claim 2 Soke-doke ranks........give me a break.
Tell me one of you guys are just pulling my leg and pretending to be this  Zhao Dai Wei guy to play a sick joke on me.
Yiliquan1 it's you isn't it? Your the mad man behind this joke aren't you?  Well it's a bit early for April Fools but you got me....I really fell for it. 




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *There have only been 3 kata in Pangai-noon, at least in the system I was taught.  Funny how if there 'were' a fourth one that Kanbun was not taught it somewhere in his ten years of training and 3 years of teaching.  You would think they could have slipped it in there somewhere in Fukein. *




There are several good books you should by.
Not the least of which is called: Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop.
Scan down to the bottom of page 42, you will see where it clearly states 4 Kata. 
8th dan my butt.more like 8th kyu.




> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *As I said several times before, perhaps Soke doesn't mean founder originally but it sure does now.  Not for me alone.  Seems quite a few people all over the world use it in this fashion.  *



More like it seems you and your ilk have latched on to a new buzz word and perversed the meaning to fit your own needs.


To the rest of your post..what is it Sharp Phil said ...........Contrarian Trolls often accuse the accusers.


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## Aegis (Feb 15, 2003)

Zhao Dai Wei: Prove that I don't have a Nidan in Judo. No really. Supply proof that I don't have a 2nd dan in Judo. I bet you can't prove it. Why? Because you wouldn't know where to begin searching for proof. In fact, you would have to search several Judo orginisations just to make sure that my name doesn't appear in any of the dan grade lists.

Whereas if I really did have a 2nd Dan, I could quite happily provide my licence number for you to check with the BJA. That would be proof.

You, however, refuse to give information on your instructor or examiners. This just screams "fake". Especially since all it would take on your part is less effort than it took me to type this post. Why not just do it? Get it out in the open. If your rank is real, then you have nothing to fear from posting details. 

Continued refusal to provide information is simply indicating that you do not have enough faith in your rank to allow people to examine it. This is of course not helping your case.

Anyway, that's my rant over with. 

Just to clarify, I don't have a dan grade in any arts, but I am willing to back up the ranks I do have with information as to where I recieved the rank.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

Zhao Dai Wei is chinese.  My neighbors are Chinese and I asked them to help me come up with a name for my system.  They suggested simply using my name.  Dai Wei is David and Zhao is as close as they knew how to come to my last name.  

I prefer Chinese to Japanese.  I actually prefer Arabic to Chinese, but unfortunately with the way things are right now I thought it best to go the route of Eastern rather than Middle Eastern.  

Since two of the systems I have learned are/have Chinese infuence I went this route.  

Take care.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

Aegis,

Your a day late and a dollar short.


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## DAC..florida (Feb 15, 2003)

Zhao Dai Weh, dont you get tired of these people bashing you?


                         Hard training breeds warriors....


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

Yes I do.


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## DAC..florida (Feb 15, 2003)

zhao Dai Weh, I couldnt help but notice you are also from florida.
I sent you a private message with my info.. contact me i would like to meet you and maybe work out with you somtime.



                                Hard training breeds warriors...


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

DAC,

We're playing thread-tag.  I just said the same to you on the other thread.  PM sent


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Zhao Dai Wei is chinese.  My neighbors are Chinese and I asked them to help me come up with a name for my system.  They suggested simply using my name.  Dai Wei is David and Zhao is as close as they knew how to come to my last name.
> *




I thought your name was SchultzI dont see how they got Zhao from Schultz..why dont you use something like Shrdz Dai Wei The sound Shrdz can have many different meanings in Chinese. You might ask them to look up some of the kanji.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

I'm not Chinese but I desired a Chinese style name for the reasons I mentioned above.  My neighbors are Chinese so I asked for their opinions.  That was a while ago so it is already a done deal.

In fact I have quite a diverse neighborhood, Chinese, Hindu [Indian], Arabic etc etc

And me a dumb Limmy-kraut


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## Doc (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Lots of people claimed to teach this person or that.  Yet they
> made the claim after the person has passed.  The fact that he
> claims that he was his student for 2 weeks doesn't jive with any
> ...



Mr. Otto, youre on the mark here. With regard to Emperado promoting Parker to 8th, it is true in a sense. When Ed Parker was set on his own by Chow, he began studying with many people, most of them in the Chinese Arts which had no rank. Emperado didnt so much train or teach Parker but acknowledge him as an 8th.  Of course Emperado was Parkers senior under Chow so his opinion and position was well respected, but not necessarily sought after. This acknowledgement had nothing to do with Chow because Parker was on his own creating and evolving his own system anyway.

Additionally Parker had literally a drawer full of certificates from everybody you can think of who acknowledged him rank at various times from many different styles. When he left Hawaii for the mainland he already had three black belts, one each in Karate-do, Jiu-jitsu, and Kenpo. Parker himself really had no use for rank until he created the commercial system where rank quickly became an issue. Parker didnt even wear rank until the seventies, and never wore stripes at all before 8th. Briefly he wore 8 separate stripes until Tom Kelly created the bar system for 5th. 

Parker never referred to himself as grandmaster, and cringed whenever someone called him master. When he introduced himself he simply said, Hi, Im Ed Parker. He hated the rank structure he inherited from the Japanese and all the baggage that came with it. He often said, In America, lineage has no meaning. But he knew the business of Kenpo and its many students demanded a pecking order.


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## Mike Clarke (Feb 16, 2003)

The well known Goju-ryu sensei Morio Higaonna recieved his 9th dan rank from the late Yuchoku Higa sensei of Shorin-ryu.
Why he went outside his system for promotion no one seems to know? Or why he never recieved a promotion from the man he claims as his own teacher, An'ichi Miyagi, no one seems to know?

Still, it just goes to show that this sort of stuff goes on even in the 'best' of circles 

Mike.


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## Master of Blades (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Zhao Dai Weh, dont you get tired of these people bashing you?
> 
> 
> Hard training breeds warriors.... *



If I may make a slight suggestion........Ryu and Zhao you can do both of two things here,

Firstly Ryu, If hes not giving you the answers you want then just leave him be cuz all your doing is wasting your time and energy. Enough people have already taken your view and your really just repeating yourself now man  :asian: 

Zhao, Your obviously not gonna give answers so why even bother replying to this thread? You too are just wasting yours and everyone elses time. All they want is proof? What is so hard bout that? 

If your tired of being bashed or not getting answers then I suggest you leave it, cuz I'm getting bored of getting nowhere :shrug:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Mr. Otto, youre on the mark here. With regard to Emperado promoting Parker to 8th, it is true in a sense. When Ed Parker was set on his own by Chow, he began studying with many people, most of them in the Chinese Arts which had no rank. Emperado didnt so much train or teach Parker but acknowledge him as an 8th.  Of course Emperado was Parkers senior under Chow so his opinion and position was well respected, but not necessarily sought after. This acknowledgement had nothing to do with Chow because Parker was on his own creating and evolving his own system anyway.
> 
> Additionally Parker had literally a drawer full of certificates from everybody you can think of who acknowledged him rank at various times from many different styles. When he left Hawaii for the mainland he already had three black belts, one each in Karate-do, Jiu-jitsu, and Kenpo. Parker himself really had no use for rank until he created the commercial system where rank quickly became an issue. Parker didnt even wear rank until the seventies, and never wore stripes at all before 8th. Briefly he wore 8 separate stripes until Tom Kelly created the bar system for 5th.
> ...



Thanx Doc,

As we all know there are always 2 sides to a story and sometimes even more. Actaully Ed parker Jr. allowed someone to display his fathers origianal certificate on their site. It was Karate(or Karate-do I don't remember), Jiu-jitsu and Kenpo all on the same certificate from Chow.

Who taught Chow Jiu-Jitsu? All I know is James Mitose taught Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu as one art.


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## Kirk (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Thanx Doc,
> 
> As we all know there are always 2 sides to a story and sometimes even more. Actaully Ed parker Jr. allowed someone to display his fathers origianal certificate on their site. It was Karate(or Karate-do I don't remember), Jiu-jitsu and Kenpo all on the same certificate from Chow.
> ...



It's on my site, but here's the direct link.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

Chufeng, 

Here is what I see. Granted you did have 5 years if Judo but that has no consequence on a chinese based Gung-Fu system.

So here goes. You pasted:

I studied YiLi with Sifu Starr from October, 1982 thru June, 1986.
                                           AND
Sifu Starr had an instructor's program...just being a senior level student (black sash) didn't mean you could teach...you also had to complete the instructor's course and must have assisted in teaching junior students under his supervision...The instructor's course was open to anyone who had made it to yellow sash (equivalent to a green belt) but you weren't awarded an instructor's cerificate until after your first senior promotion...the course lasted 2 years...it was training in addition to your regular classes...I was awarded my instructor's certifcate in May of 1985.

Sifu would not let you operate a school until you had achieved second level black sash...and then only under the direction of a regional director who was a third level black sash, or better.
At the first level black sash, you could teach in a YiLi school, but could not be the head instructor.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So 6 months into your training in a "new" art (which you stated was open to yellow belt equivalents), you entered into the instructors program. And 2 years and 8 months you were granted an instructors certificate.

And you agree with Mike clarke about getting to the core of a system before moving to another art.  Do you feel that 2 years and 8 months is reaching the core of a system. Because that would seems to imply "by that standard" that it would be "okay" to move on now. I know you did not move on on. But that standard is flawed too.

How can anybody who does not physically know me try to tell me when or if I should switch systems? besides the fact the reasons for swithing systems were not intentional on my part. As you read early on a couple of schools closed then in the "80's it was purely my fault, but as stated I did try going back to Kajukenbo several times but in "my head" I wasn't ready.

Then my sister marries a Japanese based traditionalist. he truly helped me menatally even before I became his student. The reason for leaving that system was personal as is a lot of "family" situations do happen and are a part of life.

Iwas alrady exposed to grappling when I began training under My Sifu. Shortly after I began training in a BJJ school. I was asked point blank 'When I was going to quit Jujitsu" several times. it had become a part of me and finally I had to say that I was not going to quit. Thing were never to be the same. Once we were brothers. I still think of My Sifu as my brother althogh he probably does not feel the same for me.

And that does not give me the right to break my promise using his systems name and teaching it differantly.

If your heart is in your art. You can't change it. I respect that of my Sifu, but my heart is in mine too. I see flaws in alot of arts and what they represent. 

And thinking that someone needs to reach the core of an art is dead wrong! Its a waste of time! Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is average 10 years to black belt. I don't have 10 years to dedicate. 3.5 was enough for me!  It enhanced what I have and served its purpose.

But for anybody out there that trains in only one system. You need to ask yourself a question. Does my system truly address all the needs that I have and expect from the martial arts. If you answered yes, then stay where you are. No problem, for you.

We all know that many systems have serious flaws but "we all" see it only in someone elses system. Thats okay for some but not for all. Some just beat to a differant drummer, that does not make them better or worse or wrong. Just someone who never stopped learning. I'm going to say it again.

Show me an instructor who isn't openminded and I'll show you an instructor who stopped learning!


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *It's on my site, but here's the direct link. *



Thanx, I knew I saw it.

Heres the question. Who taught Chow Jiu-Jitsu?
Mitose taught Kenpo Jiu-Jitsu as one art.
and why is Kenpo separate from Karate?

If they are basing the Kenpo on Chows fathers Kung-Fu, then why not call it Kung-Fu and why use a Karate ranking system.

I know Emperado says his Kenpo was Chinese and Mistose was trained in Japan. I also know there are a lot of people who dispute Mitose ever going to Japan but there is no other explanation of where he received his knowledge. If he received it in Hawaii and not Japan, it would be to easy to prove.


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## chufeng (Feb 16, 2003)

Akja,



> Granted you did have 5 years if Judo but that has no consequence on a chinese based Gung-Fu system.



Of course it does...our system includes a number of throws and chin na techniques...not having to learn the principles of kuzushi and leverage for the throws in YiLi made them much easier to learn.




> Show me an instructor who isn't openminded and I'll show you an instructor who stopped learning!



Couldn't agree with you more...
One of the many requirements Sifu Starr had for seniors was an exploration of other systems...to include researching the histories AND training in another system...

:asian:
chufeng


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

I'm glad to see you don't lose your head as easy as I do! Yes 5 years of Judo is a lot and that alone is more experience than many around us!


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## Doc (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Thanx Doc,
> 
> As we all know there are always 2 sides to a story and sometimes even more. Actaully Ed parker Jr. allowed someone to display his fathers origianal certificate on their site. It was Karate(or Karate-do I don't remember), Jiu-jitsu and Kenpo all on the same certificate from Chow.
> ...



I don't want to get started on Mitose, my position there is a matter of record. "Kenpo-jiujitsu was always a "generic" term for the arts basically meaning "a Japanese interpretation of Chinese arts" in Japan.

However the nature of the islands of the time had everyone training with everyone else. Thre was very much less "style distinction" over functional training. Chow was very adept at matwork and jiujitsu from his training with Henry Okazaki in DanZan Ryu. Although it is not generally known, Ed Parker was an accomplished grappler as well. 

So it was not unusual to  place more than one art on a diploma. One of these diplomas was put in Leilani' Parker's book on her husbands life, published by my then student and my black belt, Ed Parker Jr.  I had seen the diploma shown to me by E.P. Senior many years ago along with literally a ton of others he kept in a file cabinet in his office.  Everywhere he went someone was always giving him a "certficate of acknowledgement" of rank. The funny thing is Ed Parker didn't care about rank  only in knowledge and personal growth and skill. One of his favorite sayings about all martial artists and his own students was, "Just because the stripes show, don't mean that you know." The business of kenpo produced alot of rank but not necessarily real knowledge, and he hated it.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I don't want to get started on Mitose, my position there is a matter of record. "Kenpo-jiujitsu was always a "generic" term for the arts originating in Japan.
> 
> However the nature of the islands of the time had everyone training with everyone else. Thre was very much less "style distinction" over functional training. Chow was very adept at matwork and jiujitsu from his training with Henry Okazaki in DanZan Ryu.. Although it is not generally known, Ed Parker was an accomplished grappler as well.
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to answer me. And yes I beleive that Kenpo and Kempo and Jujitsu are general terms and that is why I chose them.

I really don't mean to push to hard but if I didn't learn anything else from my brother-in-law, I did learn that when we sparred and I went a little to hard while sparring he explained to me that no matter how hard I came at him, he will do the same plus a little bit more. That is his right as my teacher.

It might not be a good excuse for my actions but I kind of live by it. Please excuse my rudeness. 

Being in your position you may know some of the Kenpo oldtimers here in San Jose. My wifes uncle Chevo Macias, (No relation to my Sifu who is Macias also) he also goes by Frank received his Shodan back in the '60's or early '70's. I don't know his instructor but he still trains with him to this day and he has wanted me to train with them. I don't feel that I have anything to offer them although I would like Chevo to possibly take an advisory position to help guide me as I get established.


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## Disco (Feb 16, 2003)

AKJA, Go train with them. It's not what you can offer them, it's what they can offer you.


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## sweeper (Feb 16, 2003)

> no matter how hard I came at him, he will do the same



I have seen a few first time sparrers get knocked down from that one 

They learn control fairly quickly...


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## GaryM (Feb 16, 2003)

> _I don't know his instructor but he still trains with him to this day and he has wanted me to train with them. I don't feel that I have anything to offer them although I would like Chevo to possibly take an advisory position to help guide me as I get established. [/B]_


_ Dude, do you know what you are saying? Do you know it all? If you have a chance to learn don't turn it down. Your statement speaks volumes.  A true teacher is not so full that he can only give information, A true teacher realizes how empty he really is. Boy ,wasn't that philosophical and profound. (yet kinda not politically correct, sorry ladys, add /hers to above statements) No, really,a teacher should never forget how to be a student. The only real thing you need to give your teacher is enthusasim and commitment. Lose the ego and learn what you can. Something I once read that I have found to be true, The hardest thing to do in martial arts is to find a great teacher._


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> *I have seen a few first time sparrers get knocked down from that one
> 
> They learn control fairly quickly... *



Thats exactly what it was about, control. 

I'm not out of control just tired of these wannabe fighters trying to judge what they don't understand. If it does not fit their profile and I wasn't taught by an "approved Instructor" then I must be wrong. Ican't fight ecause they said I can't.

I've pretty much had it with the mentality of the "old ways" are the only ways and "you have to learn the whole system before creating your own."

What a bunch of horse crap. "if it aint broke, don't fix it."  Wake up, what planet have you been on. I've never heard of a RyuShiKan or a Yili until coming hear, much less any fighters or any note worthy people in general!!!

The arts I draw from are proven, time tested fighting arts. Period, not Ryuwhateveritis or any other art I deem not fit for my method of teaching and training.

The guys I'm referring to have really made me help make a huge decision. I will continue to learn from all of my instructors who don't amount to anything according to the word of whoever he is. And I will teach those arts in a fashion that is demmed approriate by "my instructors!"

But in "my system" to be deemed worthy by the world it will need to be better. I've refrained from saying that out of respect to the MT talkers. Thats what someone is "a talker" if they make judgements without knowing. Talk is cheap and meaningless.

There is no room in my system for this traditionalism as you see it. Its a fighting art. Thats what its about being an effiecient fighter. No wasted movement, thats the way I teach and that will never change.

Ryushiki, you think your the ultimate judge of who is who and you bash Americans way of doing things yet your name sounds American! Who are you?


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *What a bunch of horse crap. "if it aint broke, don't fix it."  Wake up, what planet have you been on. I've never heard of a RyuShiKan or a Yili until coming hear, much less any fighters or any note worthy people in general!!! *



Most people havnt heard of RyuShiKan because it is the name of my dojo and not the style the style I train in. I believe my website even states that. 




> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Ryushiki, you think your the ultimate judge of who is who and you bash Americans way of doing things yet your name sounds American! Who are you? *




I see it is time for the ad hominem attack since you cant support your ideas with any sort of logic.
First off, I dont have to be a gourmet to know what tastes like crap or not, and dont have to be a bloodhound to know BS when I smell it.
I have also never claimed to be any ultimate judge of who is who
Secondly, most people that see my name think I am not American..or at least not of American ancestry.
I dont bash the American way of doing things. I do dislike the way a certain group of people (not just Americans) claim certain things in the MA and think they have built a better mouse trap.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Most people havnt heard of RyuShiKan because it is the name of my dojo and not the style the style I train in. I believe my website even states that.
> 
> 
> ...



Were you born Japanese? Your name sounds French but it is typical sounding of America. Mine comes from Croatia but I'm just as much Spanish, thats because I'm from the land of all nations and I'm 3rd generation American.

If you red your posts, you do appear the ringleader.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Were you born Japanese? Your name sounds French but it is typical sounding of America. Mine comes from Croatia but I'm just as much Spanish, thats because I'm from the land of all nations and I'm 3rd generation American.
> 
> If you red your posts, you do appear the ringleader. *




Quite frankly I could really careless what your genealogical background is since it has no bearing on this subject.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Thats exactly what it was about, control.
> 
> I'm not out of control just tired of these wannabe fighters trying to judge what they don't understand. If it does not fit their profile and I wasn't taught by an "approved Instructor" then I must be wrong. Ican't fight ecause they said I can't.
> ...



Sounds like you _are_ getting a little out of control after all...

Learning an entire style before trying to modify it is actually a good idea...  If you were fixing the engine of your car, and addressed only the bits you understood in an attempt to make the entire vehicle work better, you may well end up creating only a redundant system, or worse yet shortcircuiting something else you didn't know was there...

You haven't heard of Yiliquan because a) we are a very small school; b) your profile says you are from California, and we have historically only ever been in the Midwest (Nebraska and Iowa - we now have training groups on the East Coast, Pacific Northwest as well as the Midwest, and I was the first one to take Yiliquan to Japan where it was very well received).  While Yili may only be 21 years old, it is based on Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua (which I am sure you have heard of) and Baixingquan (a Northern Chinese style with a very long lineage).  Given the arts you have studied and the orientation you have toward MA in general, it doesn't surprise me that you haven't heard of us.



> *The arts I draw from are proven, time tested fighting arts. Period, not Ryuwhateveritis or any other art I deem not fit for my method of teaching and training.*



The arts Yili draws from ar time tested as well, as is Yili in a more limited sense (given the considerably safer environment we live in these days, the "opportunity" for people to "test" their arts is much less than in the past).

What exactly are your criteria for determining an art that you would deem unfit for your method of training and teaching?  I am curious how your method is so unique that the elements of other styles are deemed unfit for your use...



> *The guys I'm referring to have really made me help make a huge decision. I will continue to learn from all of my instructors who don't amount to anything according to the word of whoever he is. And I will teach those arts in a fashion that is demmed approriate by "my instructors!"*



Great!  But just remember that folks will still want clarification on your training, clarification like you provided elsewhere on this forum.  As long as you have that ready for their examination, you shouldn't have any trouble...



> *But in "my system" to be deemed worthy by the world it will need to be better. I've refrained from saying that out of respect to the MT talkers. Thats what someone is "a talker" if they make judgements without knowing. Talk is cheap and meaningless.*



So how about this - how can I obtain a video of what you do, a general orientation video of some sort?  I would love to see what you do - maybe I can learn something new!  Or maybe not, but I'll never know until I see it...  Of course, the same could be said in response to your comments aimed at RyuShiKan, but blanketing over to touch Yiliquan...



> *There is no room in my system for this traditionalism as you see it. Its a fighting art. Thats what its about being an effiecient fighter. No wasted movement, thats the way I teach and that will never change.*



Your comment shows that you have bought into the misinterpretation of Bruce's comment regarding "traditionalism," and have failed to examine Bruce's background for clarification...  Traditionalism, in a real traditional system, includes exactly what you are talking about - no wasted movement, practicality as opposed to fluff, all aimed at producing effective fighters.  If they didn't do that, they never would have survived to become "traditional."  The arts you are probably meaning to identify are often confused for traditional, but they have lost their spirit and intention long ago and now practice their methods robotically, devoid of any real life.



> *Ryushiki, you think your the ultimate judge of who is who and you bash Americans way of doing things yet your name sounds American! Who are you? *



I'm an American.  I bash American martial artists all the time, especially the ones that claim ridiculous titles, misused foreign language terms, claims to having ties overseas in some effort to validate the garbage they teach, and those who profess they have come up with a "new and improved" version of some martial art that inevitably results in nothing more than the same old thing taught with the wannabe teacher's personal flair (amounting to no real new approach whatsoever, just the instructor's own ego).

I hope you can continue to post in a less hostile and worked up fashion.  I thought that things were progressing nicely after you posted your training background...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Sounds like you are getting a little out of control after all...
> 
> Learning an entire style before trying to modify it is actually a good idea...  If you were fixing the engine of your car, and addressed only the bits you understood in an attempt to make the entire vehicle work better, you may well end up creating only a redundant system, or worse yet shortcircuiting something else you didn't know was there...
> ...




The arts that I deem unfit are the ones bashing me at the moment. Seriously, it all leads to what works best for me.

Learning a whole system before moving on is a good idea but not necesary. You can't use all of 2 or 3 sytems and use them as one. its overkill and there are no single systems out there that address what I want from the arts. There are arts that "basically" cover all ranges. But nowhere near what is needed to address the new breed of martial artist that is at our footsteps.

I'm the first to say that the UFC is not a real fight and you willrarely see me referance it. But look at the quality of well rounded fighters that are coming up. And they are 20 year olds and younger. Most arts can't produce a fighter of that caliber!

I'm not out of control or headed there. Using that post about control, I sent a message that I learned. If you push, I will also just a bit harder.

I was careful about what I said about Yili. It would be wrong to bash something I have no knowledge of. I stated that before I came in here I never heard of Yili or RyuShiKan. Robert explained to me that is the name of his school. But I am just being me.  And you guys keep talking about the new and improved. 

When speaking of what I do I try not to use words like better or new and improved. Of course everybody thinks there system ha no wasted movement. If that were true, then we truly would only need to learn one system. But I don't beleive that to be true.

Same goes with covering all ranges. Stand up arts that go way back and most of have seen quite abit of, state (and beleive) that cover all ranges. Its outright wrong. Yet they don't get persucuted for their beleifs and statements. 

The persecuted remains to be the ones that are walking their own path. The ones that know that they could enhance things a bit. The ones that don't settle for "the word" as being the final word.

As stated before I'm not ready to start selling videos. But when I am, Ill let you know. But first you'll have to pay for your membership. 

Don't read me wrong. If I had anything to hide, I would never of opened up my mouth at all. I would not put my real name out there for the whole world to see. And I would of dissapeared as soon as I got attacked. But be aware, I have big ears and a big mouth.


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## fringe_dweller (Feb 17, 2003)

Hey AKJA,

Just to bring yet another opinion to this quickly degenerating thread....

I don't post a great deal as compared to a number of people on this board I have very limited experience. When I have questions I ask, when I have a possible answer to a question I post. Apart from that I pretty much lurk and read.

RyuShiKan, Yiliquan1 and Chufeng are guys who I see post regularly and who hold very firm opinions on almost all topics that come up. Having sat back and spent most of my time reading since joining this board these guys have been the ones most likely to cut through the crap and get to the heart of a matter - such as Yiliquan1's offer to train with Judo-kid (I think it was jk anyhow). 

My training is somewhat simple to recount... I have been training in hapkido for two years now - long time huh? Having watched a number of our senior belts train I am amazed at how much there is ahead that I have to learn - and beyond learning, trying to perform these movements competently. Looking past these guys to our Instructor I am amazed at how far the senior belts have to go before coming close to the effortlessness with which he performs techniques, as well as displaying additional techniques which they do not use. My long winded point? Maybe extra time in one art would allow you to address what you see as incompleteness within what you have learned within that art. Then again, maybe not. It's just my opinion.

Respectfully,

edited: reading a few more threads and it seems there may be more to this argument than I first thought...


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

I go to the Budo Seminar in Japan every year.
This is not really a seminar per say but a training session. 
Every Japanese art is represented there with the exception of Ninja/Ninpo.

I usually head for the Judo since they have former Olympic Gold medalists that teach there. Talk about a quality work out! 
Plus they and the Sumo club drink as much as I do after training. 
There is one gentleman that is the head instructor and about 70 yrs. old. He has done Judo for 60 years.
When I saw his technique it was very clear he knew what the hell Judo was about and could throw bigger, younger & stronger people with the same effort I use to throw a paper airplane.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Quite frankly I could really careless what your genealogical background is since it has no bearing on this subject. *



Correct, geaneology has nothing to do with it, but you are very partial to the Japanese arts and you come accross to me anyway that there is no better. My brother-in-law is caucasion(as if it matters) he was a professional kickboxer and he foughtas a Kumiuchi fighter which Mr. Hayashi blened kickboxing with Judo and called it Kumiuchi. This goes back to the "70's long before the BJJ explosion. My point is he's been through a lot and he stands behind what he teaches, Japanese based martial arts.

I just want to know who I am talking to so much. It really is simple. it does not matter if we think differant or think that we have the ultimate martial art, which I don't. We talk a lot and we should draw a line. I get ticked easy and should try and get a grip.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Correct, geaneology has nothing to do with it, but you are very partial to the Japanese arts and you come accross to me anyway that there is no better.  *




Really?
Which Japanese arts would those be?


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## James Kovacich (Feb 17, 2003)

Just because you don't use the names like other people do. It does not mean that you do not comeoff a being partial to Japanese or Okinawan arts. Maybe I would of been more correct saying just traditional.

My point was I was trying to figure out who you are. You are opinionated and probably rightly so. But I am listening.


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