# Hapkido = a blend?



## Ceicei (Jul 27, 2005)

Hello, 

 I'm trying to understand Hapkido better.  How accurate is this discription:  "Hapkido is a blend of TaeKwonDo and Aikido"?  A friend gave me that explanation but I'm not sure if it is wholly correct in theory or philosophy.  Would it be better suited to say "Hapkido is a blend of TaeKwonDo and Judo?"

 The reaosn I ask is because there are many dojos around that profess to teach three specific styles under the same banner:  TKD, Judo, Hapkido.  Some schools say Kyukido is a blend of all three. :idunno:  

 I have two friends who are interested in taking up Hapkido.  Now, I'm not the best person to ask as I've never studied that style (I wonder why some people think that "anyone who studies 'martial arts' will know about ____________ style" as if we are walking encyclopedias of the martial world?)  The only advice I could give them right now is just go to the hapkido schools around in their area, ask a lot of questions about the instructors & teaching philosophy, watch and take a couple of classes to try, and if it feels like it is something you will enjoy, then sign up.

 Answers would be much appreciated so that I can be educated about Hapkido and be able to give correct basic information on what it is.

 Thank you,

 - Ceicei


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## kenpochad (Jul 27, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Hello,
> "Hapkido is a blend of TaeKwonDo and Aikido"? - Ceicei


I had a firend that told me that is TKD & Aikido.
he had his brown in Hapkido


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## JanneM (Jul 27, 2005)

To outsider it could be easier to explain that hapkido is (read looks like) a blend of taekwondo and aikido.

Modern hapkido (after GM Ji) is a blend of Yawara that Choi Yong Sul dojunim thought and mixed with taekwondo and judo.


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## Paul B (Jul 27, 2005)

ODG..ermm. 

I think you answered your own question Ceicei. Tell 'em to go check a couple of classes out.

It's just like comparing any other arts. "Is it like Aikido?"..Kinda sorta .."Is it souped up Judo?"..Eh..Kinda sorta..."Is it TKD and AKD mixed?"..no. That would be like oil and water.

My answer would be "It is Hapkido. Go see and most importantly feel for yourself." I hear this line of questioning frequently,especially since I still have buds who are training in Aikido,Judo and Kempo. It's something you have to feel to believe,I think.

Then you get into..Which "style" of Hapkido is being taught..then it's anyone's ballgame..hehheh.


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## American HKD (Jul 27, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> To outsider it could be easier to explain that hapkido is (read looks like) a blend of taekwondo and aikido.
> 
> Modern hapkido (after GM Ji) is a blend of Yawara that Choi Yong Sul dojunim thought and mixed with taekwondo and judo.


Greetings

I need to correct a slight mis-statement that leads to more mis-understandings.

True Korean Hapkido from Ji's lineage is a combo of Japanese yawara, Korean TaeKyon kicking art (not tae kwon do), Sam Rang Do (Korean equivalent of Samuri Arts), various weapons and spirtirual teaching introduced by Ji Han Jae.

Tae Kwon Do has nothing to do with Hapkido's techniques, if anything the reverse is true.

Today however there are so many off shoots of HKD anythings possible.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 27, 2005)

Hapkido isn't really monolithic (and neither is TKD), so I think its a bit simplistic saying HKD is a blend of TKD and Aikido...or Aikijutsu...or Jujitsu, Judo...or any of the softer Japanese arts taught in the pre-war era.  

Some of the systems of HKD I've seen are fairly flowing and circular.  Some less so.  Some do forms, others do not.  Some incorporate judo-like throws, some don't...or do to a lesser extent...or to a greater extent.

But it IS eclectic...or used to be.  



Regards,



Steve


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## Mike-IHF (Jul 28, 2005)

Ceicei,

I have to agree with some of the other post. Hapkido is not anything like Hapkido. Infact it's like Paul said "oil and water". However, there is a large abundance of Takwondo instructors that say they teach Hapkido, when infact it's just Taekwondo with some Hapkido joint locks thrown in. btw, I see that you are in Utah. Are you close to Hill airforce base? if so we have an instructor out there. His name is Master Scott James. He teaches on base there. If you are close to that area, I will get you the information on his classes. Take care.


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## JanneM (Jul 28, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings
> 
> I need to correct a slight mis-statement that leads to more mis-understandings.
> 
> True Korean Hapkido from Ji's lineage is a combo of Japanese yawara, Korean TaeKyon kicking art (not tae kwon do), Sam Rang Do (Korean equivalent of Samuri Arts), various weapons and spirtirual teaching introduced by Ji Han Jae.


Kicks I've seen in Sin Moo Hapkido reseble more taekwondo kicks than taekkyon kicks.
Why isn't judo on your list? I have read from more than one places that judo is mixed in hapkido. I also see judo like throws in hapkido but you don't say there si judo mixed in hapkido...

I do not want to sound stupid nor I want to pic afight. I just have heard these thing ans seen them with my own eyes.



> Tae Kwon Do has nothing to do with Hapkido's techniques, if anything the reverse is true.


This is very true. Many TKD school use HKD techniques as theis SD teaching these days. Specially here in Europe.


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## Paul B (Jul 28, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> Why isn't judo on your list? I have read from more than one places that judo is mixed in hapkido. I also see judo like throws in hapkido but you don't say there si judo mixed in hapkido....


Well..if we want to go that route. I think the key here is "Judo like"...there are also "Aikido like" and "Tae Kwon Do like" and "Krav Maga like" and..and..and..ya see?

There are also just so many ways one can perform a Kote Gaeshi or a O-Goshi or a Ude Osae or a Mae Geri or Sumi Otoshi..you can find most of these techniques in some form residing in any of the Arts I mentioned and just about every Art on the planet. Hmm..what makes them "different"? Opinions?

On the other hand we have it that Yudo (Judo) was big in Korea at the time of Hapkido's conception. Kaeshi Waza (reversals in Judo) from hip throws and the like were supposedly mixed in at that time..I'm thinking of DJN Ji's line specifically...Stuart?


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## Mike-IHF (Jul 28, 2005)

Hey Paul,

How have you been. I sent you a pm over on Budoseek.




> Kicks I've seen in Sin Moo Hapkido reseble more taekwondo kicks than taekkyon kicks.
> Why isn't judo on your list? I have read from more than one places that judo is mixed in hapkido. I also see judo like throws in hapkido but you don't say there si judo mixed in hapkido...


JanneM, 

You could possibly say that there were some Judo throws added to Hapkido. Or if going by Japanese history, since Aikijujutsu was one of the oldest forms of Jujutsu in Japan, alot of people say that Judo came from Jujutsu. So if we go by that, that means Choi already had these throws in what he taught to Ji. There is different possibilities. However the only person that would know for sure has passed away.


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## Ceicei (Jul 28, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Ceicei,
> btw, I see that you are in Utah. Are you close to Hill airforce base? if so we have an instructor out there. His name is Master Scott James. He teaches on base there. If you are close to that area, I will get you the information on his classes. Take care.



I live about 1/2 hour away from HAFB.  My friend who is inquiring about Hapkido lives closer to there.  Please drop me a PM with the information.  Much appreciated for your assistance and thank you.

- Ceicei


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 28, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Hey Paul,
> 
> How have you been. I sent you a pm over on Budoseek.
> 
> ...




Kano, Judo's founder, never studied Aikijujutsu.  The throws the two styles do are rather different.  

Choi wasn't the sun source of technique, remember.  He was one of a number of "soft" stylists in Korea after the war.  Jujutsu and Judo--possibly some Aiki arts as well-- were taught all throughout the peninsula for the 40 years of the occupation.  


Regards,


Steve


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## JanneM (Jul 29, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> You could possibly say that there were some Judo throws added to Hapkido. Or if going by Japanese history, since Aikijujutsu was one of the oldest forms of Jujutsu in Japan, alot of people say that Judo came from Jujutsu. So if we go by that, that means Choi already had these throws in what he taught to Ji. There is different possibilities. However the only person that would know for sure has passed away.



I am very new to hapki arts... (Just wanted to tell you guys)

I judo like throws where part of daitoryu and Chois teachings why cant we find those tecniques from Yong Sul Kwan or Jungkikwan? (So I have been told) These trows are also absent in modern day aikijujutsu.

Like you said there is some judo throws added in hapkido. I dont think that these throws (as they are performed today) where part of hapkido when CHoi was teaching Ji. (Now I am talking only Ji lineage because that is the far most spred lineage in the world nowdays)


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## Mike-IHF (Jul 29, 2005)

Steve,

I was not trying to go down the road of history of Judo. If my post came off that way, I'm sorry. What I was trying to relate to is the Judo throws as far as Hapkido is concerned. 




> Choi wasn't the sun source of technique, remember. He was one of a number of "soft" stylists in Korea after the war. Jujutsu and Judo--possibly some Aiki arts as well-- were taught all throughout the peninsula for the 40 years of the occupation.


I'm not saying Choi was the sun source of technique. But when it comes to Hapkido's beginnings there is only 2 people that know the truth. And Choi was one of them. That's all I was trying to say.



> I judo like throws where part of daitoryu and Chois teachings why cant we find those tecniques from Yong Sul Kwan or Jungkikwan? (So I have been told) These trows are also absent in modern day aikijujutsu.


 
Janne,

I think it really all depends on what you consider Judo or Judo "like" throws. And it also depends on what certain teachers decide to teach. Our GM studied in the 60's with Ji, Han, and Myung Jae Nam. Now we could say that Ji added the Judo throws into Hapkido, but then certain teachers styles from that time don't show any of these type of throws. Including us. We might have maybe 2 at most that look anywhere close to Judo. But Kwang Sik-Myung's style, looks to me like it has a major Judo influence. So it's hard to say.


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## Mike-IHF (Jul 29, 2005)

Janne,




> Like you said there is some judo throws added in hapkido. I dont think that these throws (as they are performed today) where part of hapkido when CHoi was teaching Ji. (Now I am talking only Ji lineage because that is the far most spred lineage in the world nowdays)


_It's really hard to say. Those throws could have been there when Choi was teaching Ji. If you remember Suh Bok-Sup was a Judo practitioner when he started training under Choi. He could have vary well had some influence in incorporating these typs of throws into what Choi was teaching._


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## JanneM (Jul 30, 2005)

Mike-IHF
You are very true Suh Bok-Sup was a black belt in Judo when he started practising hapkido but I was told that he desided to follow Chois teaching and not do Judo any more. Unfotunetly we might never know the truth about this.

My question is why cant we see these judo like throws in hapki arts that dates before Ji's time. Or if these are in there they most certainly are not for beginners (under 3.dan).

Master D'Aloia or master Miller could you tell me if there is judo like throws in Jungkikwan and if so are they what Choi thaught to GM Lim adn what has he said about them?


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 30, 2005)

_Master D'Aloia or master Miller could you tell me if there is judo like throws in Jungkikwan and if so are they what Choi thaught to GM Lim adn what has he said about them?_

The throwing techniques that Doju Nim Choi taught to GM Lim ARE NOT Judo style throws!  Hapkido throws are for fighting and are to disable an attacker not to allow them to flip out and fall safe!  Hapkido throws can be mistaken to be similar to Judo/Yudo but in reality they are very different!

I hope this answers your question Janne M. :asian: 

Take care,


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## searcher (Jul 30, 2005)

Even though I have 4 BB's in HKD in my family, I just recently had my first real exposure to it.   Having trained in different styles including Judo and TKD, I can see where somebody might get confused about the make-up of HKD.   Many of the joint locking moves and throws are shared by some of the aforementioned styles.  This could be especially confusing to those of the below black ranks or to those that have had little exposure to other styles.

Master Miller, I am not sure why you think that Judo throws are not meant for disabling your opponent.   They are intended to throw the opponent hard enough to keep them from getting up.   The reason that they can "flip out" of them is that the one being thrown is very good at ukemi.   If they are not good at it they will not get up very easily.


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## JanneM (Jul 31, 2005)

Thank you master Miller. Your ansver was very good.

If we shall continue this matter with you. Have you any knowledge about the tecnical difference of those hapkido throws that might be mistaken as judo/yudo thorws and actual judo/yudo throws. And I mean now the difference in a way Choi donjunim thought them to GM Lim and the way they are done in judo and in hapki arts from Ji line. (What I have seen is that throws are done as  the are done in judo in Ji line hapki arts.)

On what levet those trhows that might be mistaken as judo throws come in Jungkikwan?

Searcher: Jigoro Kano took dangerous tecniques away from jujutsu when he made his judo so it could be practissed and competed safely with full power.


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 31, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> Thank you master Miller. Your ansver was very good.
> 
> If we shall continue this matter with you. Have you any knowledge about the tecnical difference of those hapkido throws that might be mistaken as judo/yudo thorws and actual judo/yudo throws. And I mean now the difference in a way Choi donjunim thought them to GM Lim and the way they are done in judo and in hapki arts from Ji line. (What I have seen is that throws are done as  the are done in judo in Ji line hapki arts.)
> 
> ...



I am not sure on your question but I will try to shed a little light on it.  You are correct that Kano took out the dangerous techniques from Ju Jutsu/Aiki Ju Jutsu.  Hapkido has NO sporting aspect it is for selfl-Defense & spiritual developement as were the Mudo of old.  Judo throws can be devestating for self-Defense but are designed to be safer.  Some Hapkido throws have a distinct joint locking aspect that I have never seen in Judo style throws.  Hapkido throws also have a much different stance than Judo.  Hapkido stances are always so you can move quickly and attack and defend even while executing a technique.  

In the Jungki Kwan throwing techniques come in at yellow belt.

I hope this helps. :asian: 

Take care


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## arnisador (Jul 31, 2005)

The hapkido throws are closer to the jujutsu throws from which Judo was developed, aren't they? They may go against, rather than with, the joint.


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## Brother John (Jul 31, 2005)

It's my understanding that the founder of Hapkido (who's name eludes me at the moment) studied Daito Ryu Aikijutsu (father art from which Ueshiba drew Aikido) alongside Master Ueshiba. ((am I spelling his name right???)) That then, later.... first of second generation students, who were also quite proficient in TKD then merged their methods. So now there are strains of Hapkido that do forms and kick more.... and strains that don't do forms and hardly kick at all.

I'm really quite the outsider in this, but from my limited research...this is the case.

Cooboration?? Steve????

Your Brother
John


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## American HKD (Jul 31, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> The hapkido throws are closer to the jujutsu throws from which Judo was developed, aren't they? They may go against, rather than with, the joint.


Greetings,

That's right HKD throws go against the joint when throwing to create pain, off balance the mind and body throught the pain, or just to break something and move on.

I teach some judo type throws without the locks like plain shoulder, hip, reaps, etc., but just to white & yellow belts to learn the basics of throwing and mechanics.

After that it's the real stuff.


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## searcher (Aug 1, 2005)

JanneM said:
			
		

> Searcher: Jigoro Kano took dangerous tecniques away from jujutsu when he made his judo so it could be practissed and competed safely with full power.


My reasoning behind my statement was from the experience of being thrown by judo-ka.   There are 65 throws in the judo syllabus.   They cover many aspects of throwing, including throws that can be used for self-defense.    They(judo-ka) throw hard enough to inflict damage to the uke.   They have no need to throw against the joint, but they can do so if needed.


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## American HKD (Aug 1, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> My reasoning behind my statement was from the experience of being thrown by judo-ka. There are 65 throws in the judo syllabus. They cover many aspects of throwing, including throws that can be used for self-defense. They(judo-ka) throw hard enough to inflict damage to the uke. They have no need to throw against the joint, but they can do so if needed.


Greetings

From that comment you have alot to learn about Judo / Jujutsu. 

I agree judoka can throw hard but you missed the whole point of the locks.

Judo is a sport that's why they took out many lock and dangerous moves, it's take much LESS EFFORT to throw someone esspecially a stronger person after a joint lock is applied they go with you and don't resist.

Joint control and Locks make it many times easier to move people the way you want them to, it's that simple.

Joint Pain = Easier compliance, easier to throw, easier to off balance, greater damage to Opp. etc.


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 4, 2005)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings
> 
> From that comment you have alot to learn about Judo / Jujutsu.
> 
> ...



I agree Master R., There are also other differances between Hapkido & Yudo/Judo style throws.  The best way to understand the differances are to see and feel them!   The thing to remember is that when you add ANY rules to make a Martial Art a sport you are taking out a certain spirit that is needed for self defense.  This is not to say that a Yudoin/ Judoka could not defend themselves or that a Taekwondo student would be lost in a real fighting situation at all.  It is the focus of the training and IMHO you will fight how you train! :asian: 

Take care


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## American HKD (Aug 4, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> I agree Master R., There are also other differances between Hapkido & Yudo/Judo style throws. The best way to understand the differances are to see and feel them! The thing to remember is that when you add ANY rules to make a Martial Art a sport you are taking out a certain spirit that is needed for self defense. This is not to say that a Yudoin/ Judoka could not defend themselves or that a Taekwondo student would be lost in a real fighting situation at all. It is the focus of the training and IMHO you will fight how you train! :asian:
> 
> Take care


I agree, thanks


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## Dave Stratton (Aug 10, 2005)

I feel to have an opinion on what judo is and is not, one should at the very least have been a student of the art for a period of time. The concepts of both hapkido and judo are more similiar than different. When you are pushed..pull and when you are pulled....push. Throwing, no matter what the art requires you to unbalance your opponent. This is found in both styles(in my experience) and is the most important concept to master. If you cannot make an opponents joint vulnerable, then a joint lock is very difficult and becomes a battle of strength. As far as judo throws allowing uke to fall safe...this is a core concept of kodokan judo...mutual welfare and benefit....it's hard to train while injured. Be this as it may, look up such throws as ura-nage, osoto-gari, and tomoe-nage and notice that injury or lack of it is the choice of not only the thrower, but the reciever as well. If the reciever is not experienced and ready for a throw , injury is very possible. I have felt the difference between the throwing techniques of judo and hapkido....I have also felt the similarities.


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## howard (Aug 11, 2005)

Dave Stratton said:
			
		

> I feel to have an opinion on what judo is and is not, one should at the very least have been a student of the art for a period of time. The concepts of both hapkido and judo are more similiar than different. When you are pushed..pull and when you are pulled....push. Throwing, no matter what the art requires you to unbalance your opponent. This is found in both styles(in my experience) and is the most important concept to master. If you cannot make an opponents joint vulnerable, then a joint lock is very difficult and becomes a battle of strength. As far as judo throws allowing uke to fall safe...this is a core concept of kodokan judo...mutual welfare and benefit....it's hard to train while injured. Be this as it may, look up such throws as ura-nage, osoto-gari, and tomoe-nage and notice that injury or lack of it is the choice of not only the thrower, but the reciever as well. If the reciever is not experienced and ready for a throw , injury is very possible. I have felt the difference between the throwing techniques of judo and hapkido....I have also felt the similarities.


Dave, excellent points imo.  I know very little about judo and have never trained in it, so I can't speak from any experience in that art, but I certainly agree with the points you've made about throwing, general unbalancing and strength vs. technique in Hapkido.  Our Hapkido teacher has a judo background, and when he teaches Hapkido throws, he teaches the very concepts you mention in your post.


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## Dave Stratton (Aug 21, 2005)

I had no idea mike d'aloia had any judo experience...interesting info...thanks howard...keep training


dave


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## howard (Aug 22, 2005)

Dave Stratton said:
			
		

> I had no idea mike d'aloia had any judo experience...interesting info...thanks howard...keep training
> 
> dave


Hi Dave, Mike studied judo briefly at some point early in his MA career.  I'm not sure if he learned it in a judo-only school, or in another school that teaches a type of hybrid self defense.  But I know he has a very sound basis in the fundamentals of judo throwing, and is very good at throwing himself.

I expect that if you contacted him via his website, he'd let you know the details.  He's very open and easy to communicate with.

Regards, Howard


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## Dave Stratton (Aug 22, 2005)

Cool....thanks Howard...take Care

Dave


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 23, 2005)

Nice to see you here Dave :asian: 

It is important to keep in mind that Judo/Yudo style throws are some what different from Hapkido style throws even though some of the same principles apply to both.  I too have some experience with Judo and think Judo is a great art to learn.  It should not however be confused with orthodox Hapkido.

Just some thoughts :asian: 

Take care,


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## Dave Stratton (Aug 23, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> Nice to see you here Dave :asian:
> 
> It is important to keep in mind that Judo/Yudo style throws are some what different from Hapkido style throws even though some of the same principles apply to both. I too have some experience with Judo and think Judo is a great art to learn. It should not however be confused with orthodox Hapkido.
> 
> ...


No confusion here..

D. Stratton
3rd dan hapkido
1st dan judo


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 24, 2005)

Dave,

I will be hosting a friendship workout sometime in late October or early November here at my dojang in Dover, NH and you are more than welcome to join us and we can explore the differances in a friendly non-competative manner  

All my best,


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## howard (Aug 24, 2005)

Dave Stratton said:
			
		

> Cool....thanks Howard...take Care
> 
> Dave


 Hey Dave, I just put 2 and 2 together and realized which Dave you are... nice to hear from you, hope all is well.

 I didn't realize you held dan rank in Judo.  That being so, you are obviously well placed to compare the similarities and differences between Judo and Hapkido throwing techniques.

 Take care...


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## howard (Aug 24, 2005)

Dave Stratton said:
			
		

> Cool....thanks Howard...take Care
> 
> Dave


 Hey Dave, I just put 2 and 2 together and realized which Dave you are... nice to hear from you, hope all is well.

 I didn't realize you held dan rank in Judo.  That being so, you are obviously well placed to compare the similarities and differences between Judo and Hapkido throwing techniques.

 Take care...


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 25, 2005)

howard said:
			
		

> Hey Dave, I just put 2 and 2 together and realized which Dave you are... nice to hear from you, hope all is well.
> 
> I didn't realize you held dan rank in Judo.  That being so, you are obviously well placed to compare the similarities and differences between Judo and Hapkido throwing techniques.
> 
> Take care...



Speaking of being well placed to compare the similarities and differences,  I would say that GM Lim would probably be best suited to do this!  The posts I have made are from the things he has taught and per conversations we have had over the last 10 years. :asian:


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## howard (Aug 26, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> Speaking of being well placed to compare the similarities and differences, I would say that GM Lim would probably be best suited to do this! The posts I have made are from the things he has taught and per conversations we have had over the last 10 years. :asian:


 Does GM Lim hold dan rank in Judo / Yudo?


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 26, 2005)

Howard,

Why don't you ask him!! :whip:


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## Dave Stratton (Aug 26, 2005)

Howard

In speaking to Grandmaster Lim during my visit to the JungKiKwan in 1992, he explained to me he held dan rank in several arts, including judo. He stated these facts again on his first visit to the USA in 1996 in GM Mike Wollmershauser's back yard at a picinic in his honor. GM Wollmershauser and Master Keith Puglisi found GM Lim in 1989 in Daegue City Korea. Since that time many hapkido people have benfited from the wealth of knowledge that GM Lim has to share with the world. I ,and many of my colleagues, have a deep respect for GM Lim and his students in Daegue. I would never assume to have greater insight than one of the greatest teachers I've ever had. There is no other GM alive that I respect as much as GM Lim. His opinion is one that I respect a great deal. 

Dave


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 27, 2005)

Dave Stratton said:
			
		

> Howard
> 
> In speaking to Grandmaster Lim during my visit to the JungKiKwan in 1992, he explained to me he held dan rank in several arts, including judo. He stated these facts again on his first visit to the USA in 1996 in GM Mike Wollmershauser's back yard at a picinic in his honor. GM Wollmershauser and Master Keith Puglisi found GM Lim in 1989 in Daegue City Korea. Since that time many hapkido people have benfited from the wealth of knowledge that GM Lim has to share with the world. I ,and many of my colleagues, have a deep respect for GM Lim and his students in Daegue. I would never assume to have greater insight than one of the greatest teachers I've ever had. There is no other GM alive that I respect as much as GM Lim. His opinion is one that I respect a great deal.
> 
> Dave



Well put Dave,  I agree. :asian:


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## Dave Stratton (Aug 27, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> _Master D'Aloia or master Miller could you tell me if there is judo like throws in Jungkikwan and if so are they what Choi thaught to GM Lim adn what has he said about them?_
> 
> The throwing techniques that Doju Nim Choi taught to GM Lim ARE NOT Judo style throws! Hapkido throws are for fighting and are to disable an attacker not to allow them to flip out and fall safe! Hapkido throws can be mistaken to be similar to Judo/Yudo but in reality they are very different!
> 
> ...


Todd,

The reason I posted anything at all is your statement that judo throws allow an attacker to "fall safe". I believe this to be an inaccurate statement and since I have been cross training in judo for 11 years, I put in my "two cents". I only state what I believe to be true based on my personal experience. My first post was a way of saying "concepts are similiar...can't we all just get along". What I probably should of said was, "I respectfully disagree with YOUR opinion that judo throws allow an attacker to flip out and fall safe." My opinion is based on the fact that I have indeed fallen "unsafely" despite more than 2 decades of martial arts experience. I should have been more clear in my first post.

Dave


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## masterswife (Aug 27, 2005)

Hi Dave:  Great posts and you deserve the respect for cross training and your Knowledge.  The facts about Grandmaster Mike Wollmershauser an Keith Puglisi are totally accurate.  Prior to 1997 only Master Keith and Grandmaster Mike had contact with GM Lim by active members of the AHA.  That is the first time that current members on this board travelled to Korea with Master Mike.  I know because I was there.  It surprises me that sometimes others forget the past so quickly.  It was GM Wollmershausr who brought GM Lim to the US and I am sure that in time  others would have found him.  It sure is hard to have a conversation with someone you did not know until a later date.  Oh well,everyone has a right to have a lapse in memory as time passes.  

Take care, my best to everyone.

Joannie W.


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## howard (Aug 27, 2005)

Dave Stratton said:
			
		

> Howard
> 
> In speaking to Grandmaster Lim during my visit to the JungKiKwan in 1992, he explained to me he held dan rank in several arts, including judo. He stated these facts again on his first visit to the USA in 1996 in GM Mike Wollmershauser's back yard at a picinic in his honor. GM Wollmershauser and Master Keith Puglisi found GM Lim in 1989 in Daegue City Korea. Since that time many hapkido people have benfited from the wealth of knowledge that GM Lim has to share with the world. I ,and many of my colleagues, have a deep respect for GM Lim and his students in Daegue. I would never assume to have greater insight than one of the greatest teachers I've ever had. There is no other GM alive that I respect as much as GM Lim. His opinion is one that I respect a great deal.
> 
> Dave


 Dave, thanks for the constructive and informative reply.  I'm sure you know that I share your deep respect for GM Lim.

 In case anybody is wondering, my question contained no hidden agenda.  I was merely asking if GM Lim held dan rank in judo, plain and simple.  I didn't know, now I do - thanks again, Dave.


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## howard (Aug 27, 2005)

Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> Howard,
> 
> Why don't you ask him!! :whip:


 Very helpful indeed.  Thanks.


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 27, 2005)

Dave,

I agree I have the upmost respect for GM Lim as well.  The only point I have tried to make is that Hapkido & Judo are different technically.  I have never thought of Judo as being an inferior Martial Art/Sport.

Howard,

I detect a hint of attitude from your post!  My point is that I have asked GM Lim about these issues and know his responses.  If you do not believe or trust my comments then go to the person I got them from!

I know you are only a 1st dan but I would think that you would have learned the spirit of respecting your seniors.  I mean this in a good but firm spirit and hope you will continue to learn the truth of orthodox Hapkido.  :asian:


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## Pug (Aug 28, 2005)

_


			
				Master Todd Miller said:
			
		


			Dave,
		
Click to expand...

_


			
				Master Todd Miller said:
			
		

> _Howard,_
> 
> _I know you are only a 1st dan but I would think that you would have learned the spirit of respecting your seniors. I mean this in a good but firm spirit and hope you will continue to learn the truth of orthodox Hapkido.
> 
> ...





Interesting comment, this should be practiced not only in words, but in actions.


KPuglisi


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## masterswife (Aug 28, 2005)

Hi everyone:   I have not been to this board for sometime and find your posts both intersting and somewhat inaccurate.  Not to beat a dead horse but to just state facts I am humbly responding and possibly not too graciously to a post I wil try to act like the lady that I am:

From: Todd Miller: "Master Mike's only promotion from DJN Choi was 1st dan this was after he had already been promoted to 6th dan from Dr. Park."

Inaccurate Todd:  I have all of Mike's certificates and records, I would be that oh so slender, sometimes blond, sometimes brunette, that lets say was "Married to Mike for 26 years", so lets put this to bed:  Mike was promoted to 3rd dan by Dojunim Choi, yes, 3rd dan, in addition he was also promoted to 6th dan by Grandmaster Jung Hwan Park.  He was promoted to 8th dan by Grandmaster Lim, your teacher.  So with this all stated, how come you think that Mike's hapkido was in the vein of Ji's and not the founder, when Mike trained with the founder, an I have this on 8mm and translated, that Mike had true hapkido, would you be so inclined not to take what the founder Dojunim Choi said as true.  Also, I am not going to be rude to you on a board (I can do that in a private e-mail) but why is it if Mike did not teach true hapkido did your teacher, GM Lim accepted your rank from Mike and promoted you to higher rank, how come if Mike's hapkido was so not true did you not go back to being a white belt when you started training under GM Lim.  Wouldn't that have been the "humble" thing to do under true hapkido?  That would make you what maybe a 1st or 2nd dan now under Grandmater Lim if you started over again in true hapkido.  How humble of you to retain the rank and the knowledge that Mike bestowed upon you. When you tested and were promoted to 1st dan on July 9, 1994 by Mike and to 2nd dan on July 19, 1996 by Mike did you think that when you went to Korea for the 1st time with Mike (remember I went too) that it would be right to start over if Mike's hapkido was so far off base.  Mike was a true hapkido practitioner and loved and cherished the art. He was never a student of GM Ji.  He always had his students at heart and that is why you had the honor of travelling with him to Korea and studying with GM Lim.  I have all the respect in the world for GM Lim an the Jungki Hapkido of Korea.  Your teacher also had respect for Mike and who he was and it might be very humble of you to practice like your esteemed teacher.   I also want to thank Hal Whalen for responding to these posts.  

Take care everyone,
Proudly, the Masters wife
Joannie W.


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## howard (Aug 28, 2005)

masterswife said:
			
		

> ...Your teacher also had respect for Mike and who he was...


 Ma'am,

 I can personally vouch for that.

 I sat about 4 feet from GM Lim in his dojang in Daegu one day about 1 1/2 years ago (Feb. 2004) when GM Lim, speaking through an interpreter (who also is a Jungkikwan member), expressed his respect for your late husband, and explained that he was going to visit the US in the summer of that year (2004) to give a series of seminars, hosted, I believe, by the AHA, and that one of his motives in doing so was to pay respect to a fellow martial artist who had departed.

 It was actually a very poignant moment.  I never had the opportunity to train with Mstr Mike (I met him at a one of GM Lim's seminars in New Jersey in, if memory serves me, 1998, but we only exchanged bows and shook hands).  However, it was obvious that GM Lim has considerable respect for him.

 And, as most people who know him will probably agree, GM Lim is an eminently respectful man himself.  When you are respectful toward others, you tend to be treated with respect in return.


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## masterswife (Aug 28, 2005)

Howard:
Thanks for your post.  I want to share something with all of you about how humble and gracious a man Grandmaster Lim is.  I shared alot of time and considerable sleepless nites with Mike through the years and more so when he became ill.  He was adament that he document and complete as much as he could for the art of hapkido before he passed away.  Anyway back to Grandmaster Lim:
Picture this,  it is early November 1997, Mike had been diagnosed with terminal cancer.  He worried about our children and about myself and about hapkido.  He also wanted to speak to GM Lim to let him know what he was facing.  We called GM Lim and even though there was a language barrier to a point GM Lim was supportive and gracious to Mike he encouraged him and said he would pray for him.  He also stated that Mike's inner strength through his martial arts training would see him through this hard time.  Mike did perserve and also believed his training gave him the strength to survive.  Then in April 1998 Mike's cancer returned.  There was little hope that Mike would survive the 2nd operation. Again he callled GM Lim.  After speaking to GM Lim for about 20 minutes, Mike hung up with tears in his eyes.  He said that GM Lim said if he never saw him again he was thankful to have been his teacher and friend.  About ten minutes later the phone rang and I answered it.  It was GM Lim.  He said "Mrs. Joannie (I always loved this nickname he gave me) may I please speak to Mr. Michael?"  I handed the phone to Mike.  He spoke to GM Lim for about 2 minutes and hung up.  He said GM Lim said he loved him as his student and they would see each other again.  I was silent and Mike stood up and said, "Damn, I will miss that man so much when I am gone.   Mike was able to see GM Lim 2 more times, here in 1998 and again in Korea in 2002.  I will be eternally grateful to GM Lim for his support and love for my husband in his greatest hours of need.  A true grandmaster is able to show his support for his students when the time comes and do so in the most humble way.  I only share this with all of you because you do not have to be a tough or rude person to be a true grandmaster.  We should all take "humble" lessons from Grandmaster Lim.

Best to all, stay well,

Joannie W/


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## Master Todd Miller (Aug 28, 2005)

In deferance to a Man that is no longer with us I will not keep hashing these issues over and over!  I will make one last comment:  Everything I have posted is the truth.  

I hold no malice toward the AHA or the late Mike wollmershauser/his family.

As GM Lim would say more training. :asian:


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## shesulsa (Aug 29, 2005)

_Mod. Note. 
  Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

  -G Ketchmark / shesulsa
  -Sr. MT Moderator-_


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## guitarac311 (Jan 9, 2006)

It is somewhat accurate to say it is blended with aikido, but actually, aikido was sprung off of hapkido if i remember correctly from my reading. The founder of aikido was a student of the founder of hapkido.

Either way, you are answering the question though.


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## Kumbajah (Jan 9, 2006)

No - No - No. There is no Aikido in Hapkido. The common thread is Aikijuitsu. Hapkido is not a blend.


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## arnisador (Jan 9, 2006)

guitarac311 said:
			
		

> It is somewhat accurate to say it is blended with aikido, but actually, aikido was sprung off of hapkido if i remember correctly from my reading. The founder of aikido was a student of the founder of hapkido.


 
I don't believe that this is correct. Both arts come principally from jujutsu, but one did not come from the other.


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## guitarac311 (Jan 9, 2006)

ah woops, double checked. it was the head of  *Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu *_who was the master of _*Morihei Ueshiba *who founded aikido.


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## SAVAGE (Jan 15, 2006)

Hap kido is based on *Daito Ryu Aiki-Ju Jitsu*. The same parent as aikido...the kicks in the west are like TKD...but the combat style I learnt has kicks only to the lower part of the body...I was taught by this man:

http://www.wka.org/Dong%20Yong%20Do.htm

The throws are based on Yudo...a korean form of Judo...to say hapkido is like one art or another is flawed...it is hapkido sure it shares similarities but there are similarities to be found with almost all MA...​


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## matt.m (Jul 14, 2006)

Hapkido is not a blend art.  It is an art that stands fully on its own.  In all honesty, there are no real gaps in hapkido cirriculum.  Kicking aspect is not like Tae Kwon Do.  Nope, the only real similiarity is that they are korean arts.  Out of fairness the kicks chamber the same way otherwise they can't be considered the same kick upon execution.

Any similiarities between aikido and hapkido are because Choi and Ueshiba both trained un Takeda.  Choi is the founder of Hapkido and Ueshiba is the founder of Aikido.  I saw on an Aikido link that Choi was giving a seminar once, Ueshiba was in attendance.  It was noted that Ueshiba publicly regarded Choi as his friend.

As far as similiarities to judo in the aspects of throwing.  Well, it is all about the off balancing or redirection of the opponent or Uke.  Sorry that is about it as well.  

Out of fairness, hapkidos wrist throws require the same pulling aspect of throws in the same manner as pulling on a judo dobok.  

I give this based on the opinion of working my way to brown in Judo 2 times.  I am also currently studying hapkido.

Just my 2 cents.


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