# GPS Trackers



## Transk53 (Nov 25, 2014)

Got a strange one here. I am a Senior Security Officer working with a small team dedicated to keep me away from the public. I say that in jest, well probably not really, anyway the point is that the high and mighty numpties want to fit us with GPS Trackers. In this case for nefarious means down to one single purpose. Aside from that are our personal feelings that simply cannot comprehend the need in the context of our job. The big UK security companies (global here) fit their cash transit vans and wagons with trackers obviously, because they are needed. We are control room and patrol officers. We have at least two radios with panic open channel button to a man. We also use a electronic via battery clocking system. Various points throughout the site that are logged on the clocker via RF tags. More importantly than that though, we have our mobiles. Plus we are all on FB for pure intelligence purposes. No seriously, we kicked a load of EDL idiots of site after one of them stupidly believed that shoving a loud hailer near our ears was polite 

Yes in the event of a radio going down, well stuff happens, but what use would a tracking system be on a dedicated site? Hard to answer I would guess on that, but we know where we are even if some stuff kicks off. The lot of us cannot see how it would fit in with our role, other than to be a spying device. Again that is not relevant to anybody on here, but one thing that continues to vex us is, is it legal to just randomly employ such a system without a specific context in regards to the tech? We have no site vehicles to use, or any other reason on H&S. The mechanism is already in place, there is no reason technically for the need of GPS Tracking. Some you are police officers, so I would ask from that professional slant of your jobs, what are the specifics behind the reasoning of trackers? The vehicles you drive yes, but what else. Thoughts welcome because if I can get specific uses of the system, I can go and politely tell my immediate boss what is what. Need some help on this please


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 25, 2014)

I would think two things are the reasons for these gps trackers. 

1.  They know where you are and can respond quickly if you are in trouble

2.  They know where you are, where you go and what you do while on the clock.  In other words they are tracking you and what you do during the course of your duties.  With a GPS tracker they can track your every movement and map it out so that they know exactly where you were, do you follow the same pattern, etc.

As to employing it?  I am pretty certain they can legally do so.  They can also justify it based on point 1 above.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 25, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would think two things are the reasons for these gps trackers.
> 
> 1.  They know where you are and can respond quickly if you are in trouble
> 
> ...



No sorry Brian with respect, I have to disagree with point 1. They already know where we are through regular welfare and radio checks. Hey, if we get into trouble, my guys retreat and evaluate, or use the panic button. No I have officer safety well covered, and the higher ups know that.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 25, 2014)

Yeah, but I know this field pretty well.  I know that management always wanted to have an ability to track, record  officer movements.  There really can be no other explanation for why they want it.  They can use point number 1 to justify it.  The real reason is point number 2.  It is quite frankly an officer monitoring system making sure you are doing your rounds, duties, etc.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 25, 2014)

You're in the UK, so things are different.  But... here in the US, for cops, there are two or three primary reasons for GPS tracking of police officers.  First, it allows more efficient dispatch by sending the closest officer rather than the assigned beat officer when appropriate.  Some calls can't wait, and it's silly to send the beat officer who happens to be on the other side of town when there is another officer literally around the corner.   

Second, it increases officer safety by letting you know where that cop happens to be if he couldn't mark out or didn't answer up to a status check.  Let me use an anectdote to highlight what I mean.  When I was a rookie, one of partners was on patrol, and checking down a side street for a runaway.  He happens to see a drunk get poured out of a car, and stopped briefly to investigate.  Well, the drunk was uncooperative and attacked him; all my partner could do was get out the distress call and location before his radio literally was smashed to pieces.  Had he not been able to do that, without GPS (which we didn't have), we'd have had to search for him -- which can be a long time if you're fighting for your life.

Third, and more cynically or sinisterly, it lets the brass check up on your movements.  They can see whether you're actually making rounds (for a guard) or patrolling (for a cop), rather than just hiding out in a coop somewhere.  The idea of being watched like that is why GPS gets fought so fiercely by police unions.

Here's my personal take: for a guard company, it means they can check where you are between rounds and status checks.  Pros and cons; it does let them get you help if you're in trouble or don't answer a status check, and it lets them catch the guys not doing rounds or otherwise cheating on their duties like that -- but it sort of punishes the ones who are doing their jobs properly for the jerks that aren't.  My own feeling?  I don't care, because I do my job so that they're not going to catch me, and I work for decent folks who aren't trying to burn me.  Change that last part -- and my attitude would change!


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 25, 2014)

Have they not told you the purpose of the tracker? I'm guessing you would have to agree to the tracker being applied to you since you are already in a contact with your employer. This would be another term, so they would maybe be adding this to new recruits and over time it would become normal, but an amendment to your already existing contract could be contested, unless it's a lawful change passed down from a bill.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 25, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> You're in the UK, so things are different.  But... here in the US, for cops, there are two or three primary reasons for GPS tracking of police officers.  First, it allows more efficient dispatch by sending the closest officer rather than the assigned beat officer when appropriate.  Some calls can't wait, and it's silly to send the beat officer who happens to be on the other side of town when there is another officer literally around the corner.
> 
> Second, it increases officer safety by letting you know where that cop happens to be if he couldn't mark out or didn't answer up to a status check.  Let me use an anectdote to highlight what I mean.  When I was a rookie, one of partners was on patrol, and checking down a side street for a runaway.  He happens to see a drunk get poured out of a car, and stopped briefly to investigate.  Well, the drunk was uncooperative and attacked him; all my partner could do was get out the distress call and location before his radio literally was smashed to pieces.  Had he not been able to do that, without GPS (which we didn't have), we'd have had to search for him -- which can be a long time if you're fighting for your life.
> 
> ...



Yeah. Thanks


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 25, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Have they not told you the purpose of the tracker? I'm guessing you would have to agree to the tracker being applied to you since you are already in a contact with your employer. This would be another term, so they would maybe be adding this to new recruits and over time it would become normal, but an amendment to your already existing contract could be contested, unless it's a lawful change passed down from a bill.



Thanks mate, this needs investigating.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2014)

Join a union if you haven't already. In the UK they are the best insurance you can get to protect you from companies and bosses, we have various employment laws in this country that some think they can circumvent, you need more behind you than just you and your workmates in these cases.
It sounds as if they are wanting to use it to monitor what you do all the time, even going to the toilet and at breaks. Though that could work against them because it states in employment laws when you are to have breaks and if you aren't allowed them or can't take them it comes back on them. For safety radios should be enough especially if you have more than one, if they are worried they can give you a 'man down' alarm as well.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 26, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Join a union if you haven't already. In the UK they are the best insurance you can get to protect you from companies and bosses, we have various employment laws in this country that some think they can circumvent, you need more behind you than just you and your workmates in these cases.
> It sounds as if they are wanting to use it to monitor what you do all the time, even going to the toilet and at breaks. Though that could work against them because it states in employment laws when you are to have breaks and if you aren't allowed them or can't take them it comes back on them. For safety radios should be enough especially if you have more than one, if they are worried they can give you a 'man down' alarm as well.



That is weird, the reply was still waiting even though I navigated to my content before replying. Cool. Anyway, yes we have considered joining a union. The problem is though, there is a culture of fear instilled in all of us. I am lucky in the sense that if I was sacked for example (been very close too this year), I could use discrimination due to my er, social difficulties. As such, it works both ways, but the others don't know how to manipulate the situation to benefit us. I talk to them and suggest things that could be useful, or enlighten them of things they did not know. I am a information whore, so I read about anything really. That helps somewhat, but as a collective, we don't speak as one if you will. It tends to go from Watch to Watch.

Not sure in this respect that a union would help. There are a lot of human factors involved with differing wills and personalties involved. Yes it is very divisive, but that is by others whom have designed it that way. Sabotage won't work either


----------



## Steve (Nov 26, 2014)

Not sure how things work in the UK.  Did you actually sign a contract?  Here in the USA, most people don't sign a contract and your employer would be able to change your conditions of employment in any legal manner at any time.  your choices in this case would be quit, cause trouble and get fired, or get with the program.

If you are in a union, there may be an obligation to notify the union.  Again, speaking only for the USA, there are a few different ways that can happen and it really comes down to risk vs reward for the company.  If they have an interest in better tracking employees' comings and goings, and there are no unions involved, what's the worst that could happen?  I don't know about over in the UK, but absent a union here, they could lose some employees who choose to quit or are fired for insubordination for refusing to follow the new rules.

Even with a union, there are several strategies that they could employ, and again it comes down to risk.  They could try to work it out with the union in advance as a pre-decisional agreement.  They could inform the union and either informally negotiate or formally bargain to come to some kind of agreement.  Or management could just implement and manage a grievance if one is filed.

In this case, it seems like management would have several, reasonable arguments in favor of the change, and could even assert that the change is de minimis to the conditions of employment, as it is really just an extension of ongoing efforts to improve communication and officer safety.  In other words, not a change at all, really.   Ultimately, if they choose to implement in spite of a union's protest or failed attempts to negotiate, the worst that could happen really is that they are faced with an Unfair Labor Practice, which would likely result in an order to return to the bargaining table, reverse their policy, and/or post a notice saying essentially, "We're very, very sorry."

In a situation like this, I'd say that the risk to implementation is pretty low, union or not, at least here in the USA.  I don't know what it's like over in the UK.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 26, 2014)

In this case said:
			
		

> Not sure the quote button has gone? Had to do that manually. Anyway, yes that would be the excuse to implement this. We have a contract, but it is tied to the rolling three year company contract. No doubt they will force this on us soon, then remedy at the next company contract renewal. Next year I think, so yeah, we are going to get **** on


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 26, 2014)

Not sure what has happened above. Must have hit a wrong button or something.


----------



## Zero (Nov 26, 2014)

Transk53, being UK based it is highly likely there is a form of contract that you will have signed on starting your job.  Even if there is an employment contract, the terms need to be reviewed carefully as the contract provisions may (or may not) provide the employer with the ability to make certain job specific amendments as long as such do not fundamentally alter the nature of your job role.  In other words, the employer may be granted the flexibility to, if required, force this on you as a job requirement. 

Why don't you see if you can dig out your contract, or determine if indeed there is one, and then let me know? 

It would be optimal if you have a copy of such at home etc (note to all, _always_ take and keep a copy of anything that is going to get you paid or cost you money).  If not, best to ask for a copy in a low key manner from your employer and without any reference to your current concerns.  A standard and credible line to use is that you are looking to take out a loan at your bank and they require sight of your _signed_ employment contract and you need to arrange the financing quickly.  If there is a HR department it may be best to simply take this up with them on that basis, just keep it on the down-low.

Peace


----------



## Zero (Nov 26, 2014)

Oops, see you responded when I was typing...so you have a simple contract that ties in with the overarching company policy/contract?  Take a look at your contract and the overarching company one.. If you don't have, ask for both as per my above post.  best to check to confirm if they can actually force this on you.   My hunch is that they probably can...


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 26, 2014)

Zero said:


> Oops, see you responded when I was typing...so you have a simple contract that ties in with the overarching company policy/contract?  Take a look at your contract and the overarching company one.. If you don't have, ask for both as per my above post.  best to check to confirm if they can actually force this on you.   My hunch is that they probably can...



Thanks man, will do  Tbh with you, our paper contract is pretty much bog paper. I think it has something to do with being a approved SIA company, they being the national framework now. The more I think of it, that seems totally logical.


----------



## Steve (Nov 26, 2014)

What I don't understand is why this is a problem.  Can you help me understand what your actual objections to GPS tracking are and why you think it is a bad thing?

Edit:  Just to be more clear, so far it seems that you have two arguments against:

1:  It's spying on you.
2:  It's unnecessary.

So, let's presume both are true.  Your employer wants to spy on you.  Why shouldn't they?  Help me to better understand why your employer should not do whatever they can to best account for your time?  I can't think of any administrative or legal reason why not.  The only thing I can think of is that it could (possibly) imply a lack of trust, which might lead to some practical issues of attrition and/or employee engagement. 

Whether it's unnecessary or not is really quite beside the point.  I mean, if it's unnecessary, so what?   There's a huge difference between saying that management _should_ do something, and management _can _do something. 

I guess what I'm wondering is what your real concern is and what you hope to accomplish.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 26, 2014)

we have them in our cars and quite frankly I dont really care if I had to wear one.  To me the pluses outweigh the negs.  Id much rather they know where to find me in case of an emergency and I dont care if they know how many times I walk into a bathroom


----------



## Zero (Nov 26, 2014)

As an aside, have you disabled your gps tracker(s) in your personal/smart phone, tablet (and car, etc (and now watch and _*fridge*_ etc!!??))? 

Is it just in the employment context (which I get even if you are legit, gold star, photo on the wall, employee of the month) or do you also have an issue with corporate big brother?


----------



## Steve (Nov 26, 2014)

Zero said:


> As an aside, have you disabled your gps tracker(s) in your personal/smart phone, tablet (and car, etc (and now watch and _*fridge*_ etc!!??))?


 What's a gps tracker in a fridge going to do? That's a new one on me.


> Is it just in the employment context (*which I get even if you are legit, gold star, photo on the wall, employee of the month*) or do you also have an issue with corporate big brother?


I don't get it.  I asked Transk53, but if you have some insight, I'd love to hear it.  I can kind of see resenting being micromanaged.  But I've worked for many micromanagers, and while annoying, it's not anything I would take a principled stand over.  I mean, work is where you're being paid for your time.  If I'm paying you for 8 hours of your time, why shouldn't you be fully accountable for every minute of that time?


----------



## Zero (Nov 27, 2014)

Steve said:


> What's a gps tracker in a fridge going to do? That's a new one on me.


Apparently you can get fridges now with temperature monitors that advise you on your mobile etc of temperature and you can control remotely and adjust temp. (seems weird to me, can understand controlling your home heating so it clicks on when you heading home from office but a fridge has me beat), they also contain gps chips - why I am not sure.  I heard they are working on a fridge that senses if the milk or egg tray is empty or running low and prompts you to purchase replacements also.  Soon we humans won't have to think at all and will have our lives run by our fridges (although if a fridge could remind you to buy flowers for the wife's birthday, that could be a good thing...), this is supposedly called evolution...


[/QUOTE]I don't get it.  I asked Transk53, but if you have some insight, I'd love to hear it.  I can kind of see resenting being micromanaged.  But I've worked for many micromanagers, and while annoying, it's not anything I would take a principled stand over.  I mean, work is where you're being paid for your time.  If I'm paying you for 8 hours of your time, why shouldn't you be fully accountable for every minute of that time?[/QUOTE]

Well, generally with that example you're technically paid for 7 hours a day and get an hour for lunch which is unpaid.  If you wanted to go to some Cat-House on your lunch break I could see why it would bug you if your employer knows where you are for every minute of the day.  For the paid component of the working day, I get your point and I see how it could be beneficial if you were a LEO or in security or where you may be in harms way potentially on a regular basis.  But on a general mainstream employment basis I don't necessarily agree with you.  Just as an example, as a lawyer, I don't see the need for my employers or clients knowing exactly where I am all the time as long as I get the job done and done well.  Why do you need to know if I am doing my drafting in the office, in the diner or in the can?

More importantly, why did you change your avatar, the pooch is great but didn't you have some kid up there before which I assumed was yours?


----------



## Zero (Nov 27, 2014)

Hmmm, now I am struggling with the quote option on this new set-up


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

Zero said:


> Hmmm, now I am struggling with the quote option on this new set-up



You have to do it manually right.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

Steve said:


> What I don't understand is why this is a problem.  Can you help me understand what your actual objections to GPS tracking are and why you think it is a bad thing?
> 
> Edit:  Just to be more clear, so far it seems that you have two arguments against:
> 
> ...



Yes it would be from you're perspective, that being the reply. Yes it would be about spying. Why do you believe that is okay?


----------



## Steve (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yes it would be from you're perspective, that being the reply. Yes it would be about spying. Why do you believe that is okay?


I think it's okay if I'm paying you for your time.  In your job, you are essentially being retained, and as the boss, they are not just allowed, but IMO obligated to account for how they are spending their money on you.  Frankly, as a manager, any reluctance to be held accountable for your time would make me want to ask more questions about why.  I mean, if you're on the clock, why would you have a problem with my knowing your exact whereabouts?  

It would be different if you were rendering a service based on a deadline.  If I'm just paying you for a result, I don't care how you manage your time provided you meet a deadline.   For example, if I pay you to mow my lawn twice a month, I don't care how long it takes you, provided it's done timely.    Your situation doesn't sound like that, however.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Steve (Nov 27, 2014)

Zero said:


> Apparently you can get fridges now with temperature monitors that advise you on your mobile etc of temperature and you can control remotely and adjust temp. (seems weird to me, can understand controlling your home heating so it clicks on when you heading home from office but a fridge has me beat), they also contain gps chips - why I am not sure.  I heard they are working on a fridge that senses if the milk or egg tray is empty or running low and prompts you to purchase replacements also.  Soon we humans won't have to think at all and will have our lives run by our fridges (although if a fridge could remind you to buy flowers for the wife's birthday, that could be a good thing...), this is supposedly called evolution...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here in the USA, full time is often 8 hours paid and an unpaid, 30 minute meal break.   So a work day is typically 8 1/2 hours.  Of course, this will vary a bit from employer to employer.   

Regarding the rest, the level of oversight tends to go down the higher up the professional food chain one sits.  But, at least in the USA, lawyers often track billable hours to account for their time.   

Ultimately, If one is being retained and not paid for services, time is being accounted for in some manner.  The easiest and most direct manner is to be visually directing an employee on site.   In other words, I (the manager) am watching you (the employee) do what you're supposed to be doing.  Absent this, as an employer, I'm going to do what I can to ensure you are doing what you should.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Zero (Nov 27, 2014)

Don't worry, those good ol' recorded billable hours are pretty much world wide.  But that in itself is fine as it is the way the bills are generated and justified (or not) to clients, it is showing the client just what they are paying for but I could be logging those hours from home or via a laptop in a tree house.  It seems a tad more invasive to actually have gps positioning on a fella (unless it's purely for safety reasons).

I'm no crook, honest, but if an employer asked to take my finger prints to hold on file for such and such a reason I would have an issue with that, even though I have no intention of becoming a crook in the near to medium future.  When I started off working in a bank years back, when I was a teller some dude tried to pass a forged cheque that I spotted. He legged it before the cops got there.  To try to track him down they lifted prints from the cheque.  To know which were his they wanted to eliminate my prints by taking a copy of my own.  Even though they assured me they would be destroyed afterwards and not entered into any data base I had great issue with that.  I don't want my prints on any database but again, I don't intend on getting into cat-burglary or international assassination anytime soon so why should I worry.


----------



## Steve (Nov 27, 2014)

i may not be clear.   We aren't indentured servants.  if people have an issue with how they are being managed, provided management is legal and within the contract, they have two viable choices.  They can suck it up, stop complaining and do their job, or they can quit.   A third option could be to lobby congress to change the law (or whatever the equivalent is in the uk).   But that's kind of a stretch.  

I'm not saying you have to be okay with it.  I'm just saying I completely understand why management would want to know where their employees are while on the clock.  And the more employees complain about it, the more certain I would be that they are doing things they know they shouldn't while on company time.  Franky, this seems like the reaction of employees who know that they've been getting away with something and resent being reset to reasonable standards of accountability. We aren't entitled to a job.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yes it would be from you're perspective, that being the reply. Yes it would be about spying. Why do you believe that is okay?


Its not spying if your on their dime.


----------



## Zero (Nov 27, 2014)

Steve said:


> We aren't entitled to a job.


I agree, my take is that we aren't entitled to anything from anyone (well, maybe universal love would be nice).  Too much self-entitlement these days, no one hands you a book when you are born stating you have a right to tax funded benefits and free accommodation...but there it all is... sorry, this may be too political for here, you've gone and lead me off track  : )


----------



## Zero (Nov 27, 2014)

Steve said:


> A third option could be to lobby congress to change the law (or whatever the equivalent is in the uk).



Hey, we got the "law" here in the UK too, not just some equivalent!  : )


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

Look guys, at the end of day, accountability does not require a GPS tracker. This maybe a little naive of me, but that trust has to be there. Still though, there is only one use for it. Perhaps I should not have posted this in the first place. What I wanted was members own experiences with them and in what use. Not some thread that is going to go political, because that is just boring.


----------



## Zero (Nov 27, 2014)

Sorry, I don't know how it got to this.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

Don't worry about it, it was just a general comment regarding the thread, not against any of you lot. Although I could say more, but it would be somewhat counter productive


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Look guys, at the end of day, accountability does not require a GPS tracker. This maybe a little naive of me, but that trust has to be there. Still though, there is only one use for it. Perhaps I should not have posted this in the first place. What I wanted was members own experiences with them and in what use. Not some thread that is going to go political, because that is just boring.


And you got the answer.  I use them and I don't care.  It doesn't bother me at all.  I don't know why it bothers you.  In the end as Steve said your choices are limited.  Wear it , quit, or change policy not necessarily laws but within your job.  Go to the bosses tell them your feelings and hope they reconsider.  I've fought to change policy I disagree with 9 times out of 10 I loose and I'm back to the 1st two choices deal with it or quit.


----------



## Steve (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Look guys, at the end of day, accountability does not require a GPS tracker. This maybe a little naive of me, but that trust has to be there. Still though, there is only one use for it. Perhaps I should not have posted this in the first place. What I wanted was members own experiences with them and in what use. Not some thread that is going to go political, because that is just boring.


You're absolutely right.  A GPS isn't the only way to hold employee's accountable for their time, but it sure can help in some situations.  Businesses restrict internet access, require employees to punch a time clock, track network traffic, physically watch employees work, and account for employee time and productivity in a gazillion different ways.  Tracking your whereabouts via GPS is just one.  In my opinion, no more or less draconian than a time clock.  

And trust doesn't HAVE to be there.  It's nice when management can trust employees, but that's not always the case.  But what's interesting to me is you seem to think that trust goes one way only.  You want management to trust you, but you seem awfully suspicious of your management team.  If there is a trust issue, it appears to me that it goes both ways in your shop.  

Regarding how we got here, you asked a question and, after giving it a little thought, I asked some questions, which led us here.  I am not sure what you think is political about this.  I'm just trying to share my opinions and hope that they help you in your job.  As I said, your reaction to this GPS thing raises some red flags for me.  Maybe it's cultural, or generational, I don't know.  But when my employees feel like they're doing me a favor by being at work, they're due a reality check.  I honestly don't understand what's political about that.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> And you got the answer.  I use them and I don't care.  It doesn't bother me at all.  I don't know why it bothers you.  In the end as Steve said your choices are limited.  Wear it , quit, or change policy not necessarily laws but within your job.  Go to the bosses tell them your feelings and hope they reconsider.  I've fought to change policy I disagree with 9 times out of 10 I loose and I'm back to the 1st two choices deal with it or quit.




Yes but you are a police officer are you not. For you the game is a little different! Why does it bother me. Well, it goes a little something like this. It means we lose accountability, we have to step out from our cover and start doing the job as robots. That is what I do not like and I'll be fighting like hell to get my point across.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yes but you are a police officer are you not. For you the game is a little different! Why does it bother me. Well, it goes a little something like this. It means we lose accountability, we have to step out from our cover and start doing the job as robots. That is what I do not like and I'll be fighting like hell to get my point across.


So your upset your going to have to start actually working?  Well that's probably why the company wants GPS


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

Steve said:


> You're absolutely right.  A GPS isn't the only way to hold employee's accountable for their time, but it sure can help in some situations.  Businesses restrict internet access, require employees to punch a time clock, track network traffic, physically watch employees work, and account for employee time and productivity in a gazillion different ways.  Tracking your whereabouts via GPS is just one.  In my opinion, no more or less draconian than a time clock.
> 
> And trust doesn't HAVE to be there.  It's nice when management can trust employees, but that's not always the case.  But what's interesting to me is you seem to think that trust goes one way only.  You want management to trust you, but you seem awfully suspicious of your management team.  If there is a trust issue, it appears to me that it goes both ways in your shop.
> 
> Regarding how we got here, you asked a question and, after giving it a little thought, I asked some questions, which led us here.  I am not sure what you think is political about this.  I'm just trying to share my opinions and hope that they help you in your job.  As I said, your reaction to this GPS thing raises some red flags for me.  Maybe it's cultural, or generational, I don't know.  But when my employees feel like they're doing me a favor by being at work, they're due a reality check.  I honestly don't understand what's political about that.



Look it is quite simple, I understand the environment of which I work. Perhaps I jumped the gun when citing political, for that I would apologise for the confusion. However, the fact remains that in the context of our job, it is not needed. I don't know, call it an English attitude towards all things that piss me off!!


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> So your upset your going to have to start actually working?  Well that's probably why the company wants GPS



Hey please keep it polite, that is just a baited response. We do work!!


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Hey please keep it polite, that is just a baited response. We do work!!


That's what it looked like your saying.  We have to leave our cover and do our jobs as robots.  Here when we say something about cover it's a nice quiet place to hide


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Look it is quite simple, I understand the environment of which I work. Perhaps I jumped the gun when citing political, for that I would apologise for the confusion. However, the fact remains that in the context of our job, it is not needed. I don't know, call it an English attitude towards all things that piss me off!!


That's any job.  Ask anyone here and they can tell you stupid things they do at their jobs.  I could write a book on the nonsense we do everyday that's not needed


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> You have to do it manually right.


If you click the "REPLY" button, it automatically quotes.  If you just want to reply to the thread, just click into the reply box at the bottom, and you're good to go.  Multi-quotes (quoting from more than one post) is a little harder.  Click "QUOTE" in the desired posts, and "MORE OPTIONS..." while typing your reply, and you'll get a window that lets you manage the inserts.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> That's what it looked like your saying.  We have to leave our cover and do our jobs as robots.  Here when we say something about cover it's a nice quiet place to hide



Okay point taken. I meant cover as the umbrella I have created. Hey no offence man, I just jumped on that.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> If you click the "REPLY" button, it automatically quotes.  If you just want to reply to the thread, just click into the reply box at the bottom, and you're good to go.  Multi-quotes (quoting from more than one post) is a little harder.  Click "QUOTE" in the desired posts, and "MORE OPTIONS..." while typing your reply, and you'll get a window that lets you manage the inserts.



Okay thanks. I don't mind inputting [] [/] marks, but the quote button was a bit easier.


----------



## Steve (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Look it is quite simple, I understand the environment of which I work. Perhaps I jumped the gun when citing political, for that I would apologise for the confusion. However, the fact remains that in the context of our job, it is not needed. I don't know, call it an English attitude towards all things that piss me off!!


You say it's a fact that these are not needed.  But management seems to disagree with you.  Weird, since you say you understand your work environment.  

Things just aren't adding up  My advice would be to go about your business day as though you already have a gps tracker.  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 27, 2014)

Steve said:


> You say it's a fact that these are not needed.  But management seems to disagree with you.  Weird, since you say you understand your work environment.
> 
> Things just aren't adding up  My advice would be to go about your business day as though you already have a gps tracker.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



The things that don't add up is that you do not understand our environment. Hey look, we could both bat back and forth assertions, but you know it will worthless to to keep guessing.


----------



## Steve (Nov 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> The things that don't add up is that you do not understand our environment. Hey look, we could both bat back and forth assertions, but you know it will worthless to to keep guessing.


lets say your employer has no reason for Gps trackers other than to spy on you.   Can you help me understand why your employer shouldn't take steps to better track its employees' time?    Why shouldn't they spy on you?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

Steve said:


> lets say your employer has no reason for Gps trackers other than to spy on you.   Can you help me understand why your employer shouldn't take steps to better track its employees' time?    Why shouldn't they spy on you?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



We work for a security company, not MI6. There is already the mechanism in place for staff auditing. You are asking why should they not spy, because I far as I am concerned, (in this sense all my colleagues as well) why should they spy.


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 28, 2014)

I personally find it an invasion of my privacy for my employer to ask (or sneakily) to spy on me. Think we have laws to protect us from that as well. I did have an experience once when they started tracking or blackberries. I kept turning it off and they threatened me with job loss if I didn't confirm. Still have my job and not tracked.

Not interested in playing their big brother games either. They could try and sack me for it, pretty sure I'd come out on top.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> I personally find it an invasion of my privacy for my employer to ask (or sneakily) to spy on me. Think we have laws to protect us from that as well. I did have an experience once when they started tracking or blackberries. I kept turning it off and they threatened me with job loss if I didn't confirm. Still have my job and not tracked.
> 
> Not interested in playing their big brother games either. They could try and sack me for it, pretty sure I'd come out on top.



Yes I agree. It is an invasion of privacy. Obviously the rabbit goes deep with differing corporate and employment rules and what not, but when things Facebook are monitored, radio transmissions, visual checks on cameras etc, it all gets too much. Until I see some information on how it will be implemented, I, and my colleagues will remain skeptical.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

I dont think a GPS tracker that you know your wearing is spying. I think if they secretly did it and you were not aware thats one thing.  Are there cameras in your building?


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I dont think a GPS tracker that you know your wearing is spying. I think if they secretly did it and you were not aware thats one thing.  Are there cameras in your building?



Internal control room monitoring camera with live audio recording as well. Meant for an MOP, but it has been used against officers quite frequently. Sometimes if some things go wrong, someone said something wrong in regards to the job, then yes. However, the site security manager has the ability to listen to whatever he wants. We can as well, which is probably just as bad, but we do only when absolutely necessary, not as a tool to catch people out.

We have a modest bank of 45 cameras throughout the site, take in other factors like part of it is residential, there is no where we can hide.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

So your already being spied on so not really worth being upset over


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

You no doubt right about that, but sometimes, in our case, enough is enough. It is also very difficult to convey without naming certain stuff.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

If it bothers you that much then fight the good fight. Me I dont really care if people know where I am or what Im doing.  Theyare about to strap a camera on my chest soon to record everything I do.................. so a GPS isnt that bad


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> If it bothers you that much then fight the good fight. Me I dont really care if people know where I am or what Im doing.  Theyare about to strap a camera on my chest soon to record everything I do.................. so a GPS isnt that bad



Guess so, is about just socking it to them for a change. Anyway's, body cams we have them. British police type, but their pretty flimsy!


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

I guess I never understood the whole stick it to your employer mentality.  If your job is that miserable to you why stay and hate going?  We have alot of turmoil at my job right now and morale is at an all time low.  Everyone's looking for ways to "stick it" to the boss.  I'm not happy right now but I go do my job.  If it gets too bad I'll just go find a new one.  In fact I've got applications in at 2 places I'm waiting to hear back from.  I have no desire to get into a pissing match with the bosses because I'll loose.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I guess I never understood the whole stick it to your employer mentality.  If your job is that miserable to you why stay and hate going?  We have alot of turmoil at my job right now and morale is at an all time low.  Everyone's looking for ways to "stick it" to the boss.  I'm not happy right now but I go do my job.  If it gets too bad I'll just go find a new one.  In fact I've got applications in at 2 places I'm waiting to hear back from.  I have no desire to get into a pissing match with the bosses because I'll loose.



Well for one, this has been building up for months. I suppose I will have to concede that being here for 13 years may have an impact.


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 28, 2014)

I think you points you make are very valid Ballen, I choose not to based on personal principle. 

I've seen trust broken and abuse of privilege on both sides before. But tracking is just another facet.

I also think your role in society has different expectations and requirements. All I can imagine is the benefits and safety aspects would out weight the negatives.

But the 95% of the rest of the population don't have to deal with anything remotely confronting as you would.

If an employers purpose to track is to performance manage its employees, I see ethical issues with allowing this, as it's give an inch, take a mile. There are plenty of ways to do this without knowing someone's longitude and latitude. And without good reason, is just another element to squeeze more out of people and put them over the barrel.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

I get what your saying but if I as an employer am paying your for 8 hours of work and one way to make sure I'm getting my full 8 hours out of you is to track your movements I don't really care of you like it or not honestly.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> I think you points you make are very valid Ballen, I choose not to based on personal principle.
> 
> I've seen trust broken and abuse of privilege on both sides before. But tracking is just another facet.
> 
> ...



Yes, over the barrel al right, and as I have been pointing out, no good reason.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yes, over the barrel al right, and as I have been pointing out, no good reason.


Over a barrel of what?  Making sure your working when your being paid to work is not unfair in my opinion


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

No it is not about working, they already know that. The fact that as a security officer carrying police grade equipment, GPS Tracking. No way man, no way.


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 28, 2014)

It's up to the employer sure. But it also is part of the workplace environment. Places of that nature generally have high turn around of staff and bad reputation, revenue is driven my stock value and less about making a work friendly environment.

Definitely has a pecking order as well, depending where you are on the pay scale, your treated differently. It would't surprise anyone that I'm a supporter of unions as well.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> No it is not about working, they already know that. .


Apparently not which is why they want GPS


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Over a barrel of what?  Making sure your working when your being paid to work is not unfair in my opinion



Just forcing people to do something with the threat of job loss is over the barrel. As I've said, there are plenty of ways to performance manage staff, you don't need to track them, or paint every staff member with the same brush because there might be a single bad apple. It's also not uncommon to use superfluous reasons to sack someone from a position, GPS tracking reaks of it.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> It's up to the employer sure. But it also is part of the workplace environment. Places of that nature generally have high turn around of staff and bad reputation, revenue is driven my stock value and less about making a work friendly environment.
> 
> Definitely has a pecking order as well, depending where you are on the pay scale, your treated differently. It would't surprise anyone that I'm a supporter of unions as well.


Nobody forces you to work there.  You choose to work there you follow their rules


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Nobody forces you to work there.  You choose to work there you follow their rules



Yep, but being in a role and have them introduce something new is different, telling someone who is a hard worker, that they want to start doing something that is ethically questionable for the type of work they are doing so they can have more leverage on the employee when deemed it's needed, but if you don't like it you can quit, is over the barrel. 

If you applying for a position, if they have full disclosure and state they like to run their operation like a chicken farm they should. But you'd want to know your time and material is tracked by GPS and you will be accountable to the minute, not a great selling point if your wanting to attract professionals.

So I agree on new contracts\positions, it's up to the employee to have disclosure and the candidate can decide.


----------



## Steve (Nov 28, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yes, over the barrel al right, and as I have been pointing out, no good reason.


I think this is the disagreement.  I think holding you accountable for the time I'm paying you is a very good reason.  Good enough all by itself.   An employee with nothing to hide wouldn't care one way or the other, in my experience.  In fact, hard working employees often welcome things like this, as it keeps the slackers on task and lightens the quality employees' load.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 28, 2014)

Steve said:


> I think this is the disagreement.  I think holding you accountable for the time I'm paying you is a very good reason.  Good enough all by itself.   An employee with nothing to hide wouldn't care one way or the other, in my experience.  In fact, hard working employees often welcome things like this, as it keeps the slackers on task and lightens the quality employees' load.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



No, way off.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Just forcing people to do something with the threat of job loss is over the barrel. As I've said, there are plenty of ways to performance manage staff, you don't need to track them, or paint every staff member with the same brush because there might be a single bad apple. It's also not uncommon to use superfluous reasons to sack someone from a position, GPS tracking reaks of it.


If you do your job you don't need to worry about it.  People are freaking at my work because if body cameras.  Me I'm like who cares I don't do things I'm not supposed to anyway so my footage will be boring


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Nobody forces you to work there.  You choose to work there you follow their rules



Yay the quote thingy worked! ( I am a computer illiterate, always surprised when something works, usually I  just click everything, sorry I digress)

Here though, employers aren't supposed to just change the rules, employees are supposed to have a contract with their terms and conditions on, this includes a job description. The protection in that works both ways, an employee can't say he wasn't aware he had to do a certain task and the employer can't go adding more and more task or change the terms and conditions without negotiation. This would normally involve being paid more for extra tasks etc. Again works for both sides, once agreed the employee has to do the task.
That's how it's supposed to be legally in this country, now whether the GPS is a new 'task' or something new under the terms and conditions I don't know, I also don't know where Transk works so almost impossible to speculate whether it's a good idea safety wise or for the employer, he could be shooting himself in the foot.  All MOD vehicles carry GPS  but not employees so have no experience with them. ( not a lot of help really!)


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2014)

Tracking and work. Citizens Advice - Monitoring at work
also Citizens Advice - Basic rights at work


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> If you do your job you don't need to worry about it.  People are freaking at my work because if body cameras.  Me I'm like who cares I don't do things I'm not supposed to anyway so my footage will be boring


I do my job, and don't need it. If there is a problem with my performance there are policies and procedures already in place to address. Or my employer could talk to me.

Anyone OK with it, go for it, there is always people that won't care.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> I do my job, and don't need it. If there is a problem with my performance there are policies and procedures already in place to address. Or my employer could talk to me.
> 
> Anyone OK with it, go for it, there is always people that won't care.


Alot of time stuff like this is put in place to deal with a particular employee.  They can't "single" one out so they make sweeping policy changes because of 1 person.  So you may be doing your job just fine that doesn't mean everyone is.


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Alot of time stuff like this is put in place to deal with a particular employee.  They can't "single" one out so they make sweeping policy changes because of 1 person.  So you may be doing your job just fine that doesn't mean everyone is.



yeah, that's a good example of possible bad management. It's a tactic not uncommon, normally used if the employer or line manager doesn't know how to directly deal with an under performing employee. It reflects badly on management and can be a result of managers not really skilled properly to handle their role.

Can end badly for a department when treating everyone the same as the lowest denominator, low moral, people leave etc.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 28, 2014)

it's usually used so nobody can comeback and scream discrimination.


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 28, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> it's usually used so nobody can comeback and scream discrimination.



Buts that why there are HR departments to deal with these things, policies, procedures, performance reviews etc. If there is actual merit to performance managing someone, they can normally do it. But there are lazy ways to do it as well, by punishing everyone, rather than gong through the process or back them into corners.

Not saying it doesn't swing both ways.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> Buts that why there are HR departments to deal with these things, policies, procedures, performance reviews etc. If there is actual merit to performance managing someone, they can normally do it. But there are lazy ways to do it as well, by punishing everyone, rather than gong through the process or back them into corners.
> 
> Not saying it doesn't swing both ways.



Which is pretty much what we as employees have to endure. It is like this in structure. We have commercial management in Land Securities. We have an Estate management company for the residential (apartments) side of things. Thirdly there is the marina company looking after the boating side of things. Then there the company I work for that are sub contracted to all three through the contract agreement. 

The security contract for the client, which in this case is the site security manager and Estates, who own the majority of holdings, are who we have to work through. Generally Land Securities and the Estates. They are generally the ones through the site security manager that give us extra duties. No where in my contract does stipulate that we have to wear body cams. No where in our contract did it say that when issuing parking tickets, we were to receive a new PDA for the job.

No this all emanates from one, maybe two people, while competing with each other. We have to put up with this because the company I actually work for, have to tread on egg shells due to the fact the the security contract props up the company pretty much. It is not there fault though, we have other divisions as well, so if the security contract is lost, the company would likely go bust. So, the usual pandering to a minority of right handers. As such my boss, the contract security manager, has very little influence due to the overall situation. A union would likely chew up the place, but would spit out too many bodies. Morally I might be questionable, but I am not reprehensible. As usual, the big barrel with the words "I own your ****" painted on it.


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 29, 2014)

Yeah, I guess sometimes you have to suck it up. If I'm trading it right, it's a choice needed to retain a client and not necessarily your employers choice?


----------



## jezr74 (Nov 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> If you do your job you don't need to worry about it.  People are freaking at my work because if body cameras.  Me I'm like who cares I don't do things I'm not supposed to anyway so my footage will be boring


What freaks them out, is it a privacy thing? I'm guessing in your line if work it's for use against anyone trying to pull a fast one on you in court?


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2014)

jezr74 said:


> What freaks them out, is it a privacy thing? I'm guessing in your line if work it's for use against anyone trying to pull a fast one on you in court?


I just think people in general don't want their every move recorded.  Everything you say, do, eat, every phonecall, ect will be recorded.  Plus people don't like change.  I don't really want one more thing to put on my uniform but I understand the benefits outweigh the negative


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Which is pretty much what we as employees have to endure. It is like this in structure. We have commercial management in Land Securities. We have an Estate management company for the residential (apartments) side of things. Thirdly there is the marina company looking after the boating side of things. ................ where in our contract did it say that when *issuing parking tickets*, we were to receive a new PDA for the job..............
> 
> .



That's a very grey and murky area in itself that can put you in a bad position.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> "I own your ****" painted on it.


Not at all.  You have the power to leave anytime you want.  I've walked out of several jobs because I disagreed with management.  I'll probably be walking away from this one soon due to some issues.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2014)

Walking away is not always an option, jobs can be few and far between here. Depending on circumstances having principles is something not everyone can afford. The South of England is more prosperous and may have more jobs but the cost of living is higher. Security work is minimum wage, police work however is very well paid. Up in the grim North there is little work, factories are closed, steel mills and coal mines closed with nothing coming in to replace the jobs. Retraining and education non existent. So, if you have job you hang on to it, the present government historically have always shown it prefers this situation where it controls workers with the fear if losing their jobs. With thousands of people to each job they never fear they will be without workers. It's hard to explain what it's like here without writing an essay lol but you do have to hang onto a job if you have one regardless of conditions sadly.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Not at all.  You have the power to leave anytime you want.  I've walked out of several jobs because I disagreed with management.  I'll probably be walking away from this one soon due to some issues.



I agree with you on that. Over the years I have done the same thing. Look like yourself I have also being actively looking elsewhere. I receive emails everything day showing me a million new potential jobs. It can be very difficult to gain different employment. I have to that game too by not walking out. Yes you are indeed correct with myself possessing the power to leave. However, I do not have the power to affect that for the good. Anyway, good luck with it all!


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Walking away is not always an option, jobs can be few and far between here. Depending on circumstances having principles is something not everyone can afford. The South of England is more prosperous and may have more jobs but the cost of living is higher. Security work is minimum wage, police work however is very well paid. Up in the grim North there is little work, factories are closed, steel mills and coal mines closed with nothing coming in to replace the jobs. Retraining and education non existent. So, if you have job you hang on to it, the present government historically have always shown it prefers this situation where it controls workers with the fear if losing their jobs. With thousands of people to each job they never fear they will be without workers. It's hard to explain what it's like here without writing an essay lol but you do have to hang onto a job if you have one regardless of conditions sadly.



Very very well said Ma'am. Yes the same culture of fear that permeates every little corner of life on this island. This also ties in with our present circumstances down here.


----------



## Steve (Nov 29, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Very very well said Ma'am. Yes the same culture of fear that permeates every little corner of life on this island. This also ties in with our present circumstances down here.


If true, that really stinks for you guys.  It would be terrible to live in a pervasive culture of fear.  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

Steve said:


> If true, that really stinks for you guys.  It would be terrible to live in a pervasive culture of fear.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD



Oh yes it is true alright. It is very much a shut up and do as your told thing. Can't upset certain people for fear of having a bad mark against staff and who I work for. Yeah it stinks, and even more so, when it is apparent to all of us that it may worsen. It is politics all the time. I am being on the level here.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Oh yes it is true alright. It is very much a shut up and do as your told thing.


Thats life man you dont like it start your own company.  Being the boss has advantages


> Can't upset certain people for fear of having a bad mark against staff and who I work for. Yeah it stinks, and even more so, when it is apparent to all of us that it may worsen. It is politics all the time. I am being on the level here.


Cant be that bad your still there. RIght now the compensation is greater then the headaches.  When the headaches are worse then the compensation then it wont matter if the job market sucks you just go


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Walking away is not always an option, jobs can be few and far between here. Depending on circumstances having principles is something not everyone can afford. The South of England is more prosperous and may have more jobs but the cost of living is higher. Security work is minimum wage, police work however is very well paid. Up in the grim North there is little work, factories are closed, steel mills and coal mines closed with nothing coming in to replace the jobs. Retraining and education non existent. So, if you have job you hang on to it, the present government historically have always shown it prefers this situation where it controls workers with the fear if losing their jobs. With thousands of people to each job they never fear they will be without workers. It's hard to explain what it's like here without writing an essay lol but you do have to hang onto a job if you have one regardless of conditions sadly.


If its that bad where it work it wont matter you just go.  If your still working then its not that bad there yet


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Thats life man you dont like it start your own company.  Being the boss has advantages
> 
> Cant be that bad your still there. RIght now the compensation is greater then the headaches.  When the headaches are worse then the compensation then it wont matter if the job market sucks you just go



I am too old to do what I would have done years ago. If I just quit I will be rendered well and truly boned. In this country fella, it is very very difficult to gain new employment. Even at my last disciplinary putting me on a first and final written warning, I said to them just sack me then, no they said, what will you do then. That is the climate now. I am not convinced that I would be able to claim unemployment benefit even being sacked. Plus also I have rent to pay. training to pay for and the gym. While I completely agree that I have the power to walk away, it would be futile for me to do so.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2014)

Fearing for your jobs is the Tories SOP. Keeps the peasants down, and if you think I'm joking you should look at where the Tories went to school, all the top exclusive Public Schools. Class, which is not just based on money here, very much rules when the Tories are in power that and the Old Boy network.
Anyway before we get told to shunt off to the Study I will stop lol.

Can we have the old emoticons back please? Many were martial arts related like the 'bow' one, liked that.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> If its that bad where it work it wont matter you just go.  If your still working then its not that bad there yet




I don't know Transk's situation, he could have six kids and a disabled partner to support for example, so can't comment on his individual situation. working in a bad job, however bad is better than living on the streets though. We may have Social Security but it's harder to claim than people think, you also have to have a permanent address to receive it which the homeless don't so no home and no money is worse than the worse job.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2014)

Ive only had 1 job I wasnt allowed to quit and that was the military.  Towards the end I HATED it.  I told myself I'll never stay at a job I hate again.  If it gets to the point I just dread going to work Ill quit.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Ive only had 1 job I wasnt allowed to quit and that was the military.  Towards the end I HATED it.  I told myself I'll never stay at a job I hate again.  If it gets to the point I just dread going to work Ill quit.




I'm lucky I've liked all my jobs, and if I didn't again I'm lucky in that I could quit. Dreading going to work but not being able to quit is really terrible to contemplate. Wage slavery indeed yet sadly I think it's reality for many everywhere.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Ive only had 1 job I wasnt allowed to quit and that was the military.  Towards the end I HATED it.  I told myself I'll never stay at a job I hate again.  If it gets to the point I just dread going to work Ill quit.


It's important to remember that some folks here, like Tez and Transk are in a different country.  Things there could be very different than here in the US.  Shoot -- you know that things are different just by crossing from one state to another.   There's a pretty good chance that you have a collective bargaining union; I don't.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know Transk's situation, he could have six kids and a disabled partner to support for example, so can't comment on his individual situation. working in a bad job, however bad is better than living on the streets though. We may have Social Security but it's harder to claim than people think, you also have to have a permanent address to receive it which the homeless don't so no home and no money is worse than the worse job.



Luckily I do not have kids, then again maybe unlucky. I know through bitter and cold experience of the streets. I came from there and went back there a couple of times. I was very fortunate to get placed in a shelter. The Brit police came off good on that one. You want I would love to have a rant about Uncle Dave and the establishment. He was Cambridge I believe. Maybe it just takes a Brit to understand it with no offence to the American members, I would just like to make that clear!


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

jks9199 said:
			
		

> collective bargaining union



As I have taken yet another thread off topic, I may as well ask. The aforementioned, how does that work?


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

Tez3 said:
			
		

> Can we have the old emoticons back please? Many were martial arts related like the 'bow' one, liked that.



Probably not with the new board software. Would have to be new shiny versions, probably I say.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Ive only had 1 job I wasnt allowed to quit and that was the military.  Towards the end I HATED it.  I told myself I'll never stay at a job I hate again.  If it gets to the point I just dread going to work Ill quit.



Well at least you joined up, that is something most do not do.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 29, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> As I have taken yet another thread off topic, I may as well ask. The aforementioned, how does that work?


In some states in the US, a union negotiates a common contract for all the workers, and often you must join the union for that job, while others are "right to work" where there are either individual contracts, or no real work contract.  So, for example, in some police departments, the Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) might negotiate the wages, work conditions (to a certain extent), and so on for officers.  In my department, the municipality sets the terms -- and if we don't like it, we can leave.  Some security guards are members of various unions like the Teamsters, and again, have their wages, etc. set through that contract.  I won't get into the pros and cons; that's likely to trip into a political discussion as much as anything else.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> In some states in the US, a union negotiates a common contract for all the workers, and often you must join the union for that job, while others are "right to work" where there are either individual contracts, or no real work contract.  So, for example, in some police departments, the Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) might negotiate the wages, work conditions (to a certain extent), and so on for officers.  In my department, the municipality sets the terms -- and if we don't like it, we can leave.  Some security guards are members of various unions like the Teamsters, and again, have their wages, etc. set through that contract.  I won't get into the pros and cons; that's likely to trip into a political discussion as much as anything else.



Yeah no worries on the politics  You know that is interesting to a newbie, but I will Google most of the above snippets. I am guessing here that the "no real contract, is what we (UK) refer to as the "zero hours contract". I am not sure though. Do the workers receive any guaranteed hours. With the ZHC the staff members is not guaranteed any hours, but expected to work say, 20Hrs a week. This with the reasonable assurance of work.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 29, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah no worries on the politics  You know that is interesting to a newbie, but I will Google most of the above snippets. I am guessing here that the "no real contract, is what we (UK) refer to as the "zero hours contract". I am not sure though. Do the workers receive any guaranteed hours. With the ZHC the staff members is not guaranteed any hours, but expected to work say, 20Hrs a week. This with the reasonable assurance of work.


It's a complicated issue.  Basically, I don't have a formal employment contract at all; I'm in an "at will" state and I can quit tomorrow -- or be fired.  There are some limitations and due process requirements, but that's it.  The municipality's pay plan and administrative regs set my wages and hours of work.  There are administrative and statutory process to dispute discipline, as well as court proceedings.  If I was part of a collective bargaining unit, they'd negotiate many of those issues.  They'd often stand between me and the agency during discipline.  Like I said; it's complicated, and I'm barely scratching the surface.  

You've mentioned that you have a work contract; I don't know if it's set by union or merely between you and your employer.  To try to swing back to the topic -- what does it say about using a GPS unit as a condition of work?  There may be something there to let you dispute it...  though you then have to weigh whether the issue is worth the likely repercussions.


----------



## Transk53 (Nov 29, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> It's a complicated issue.  Basically, I don't have a formal employment contract at all; I'm in an "at will" state and I can quit tomorrow -- or be fired.  There are some limitations and due process requirements, but that's it.  The municipality's pay plan and administrative regs set my wages and hours of work.  There are administrative and statutory process to dispute discipline, as well as court proceedings.  If I was part of a collective bargaining unit, they'd negotiate many of those issues.  They'd often stand between me and the agency during discipline.  Like I said; it's complicated, and I'm barely scratching the surface.
> 
> You've mentioned that you have a work contract; I don't know if it's set by union or merely between you and your employer.  To try to swing back to the topic -- what does it say about using a GPS unit as a condition of work?  There may be something there to let you dispute it...  though you then have to weigh whether the issue is worth the likely repercussions.


 
Tbh, I am not worried about repercussions as such, I am more worried about my work mates. There is no need or condition. That is my point, spyware if you will. The power base is different here. Three into one does not mix, but they think so. Yeah its complicated. The closest I would think would be the rolling contract, but for us that is kind against rep. Mainly SQ, as long as we pander.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2014)

JKS Your Still covered by LEOBOR correct?


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2014)

We do have a union it's a grocery workers union.  I personally am not a member.  For a while I was the only non member.  Over the last few months things have happened that have pissed off the rank and file and the union didn't care so several others have quit now


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 29, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> JKS Your Still covered by LEOBOR correct?


I am -- but a sheriff's deputy wouldn't be.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 29, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> I am -- but a sheriff's deputy wouldn't be.


really.  That was the same here until a few years ago now they are covered as well


----------



## oftheherd1 (Dec 2, 2014)

Zero said:


> Don't worry, those good ol' recorded billable hours are pretty much world wide.  But that in itself is fine as it is the way the bills are generated and justified (or not) to clients, it is showing the client just what they are paying for but I could be logging those hours from home or via a laptop in a tree house.  It seems a tad more invasive to actually have gps positioning on a fella (unless it's purely for safety reasons).
> 
> I'm no crook, honest, but if an employer asked to take my finger prints to hold on file for such and such a reason I would have an issue with that, even though I have no intention of becoming a crook in the near to medium future.  When I started off working in a bank years back, when I was a teller some dude tried to pass a forged cheque that I spotted. He legged it before the cops got there.  To try to track him down they lifted prints from the cheque.  *To know which were his they wanted to eliminate my prints by taking a copy of my own*.  Even though they assured me they would be destroyed afterwards and not entered into any data base I had great issue with that.  I don't want my prints on any database but again, I don't intend on getting into cat-burglary or international assassination anytime soon so why should I worry.


 
By the time I got to the end of page two it looked to me like all relavant questions and comments had been coverd.  But the bolded may be worth a further comment.  My prints have been on file with the FBI since I joined, or not long after I joined, the US Army.  They were (maybe still are) on file with the US Army CID lab since I used to process major and complicated crime scenes.  For the latter, it was important that my prints, if found, be able to be eliminated as a possible suspect.  I don't know where you live, but in the USA, if there are unidentified fingerprints at a scene, or on a check in your cited case, it might give a defense lawyer the ability to say someone else may have been the perpetrator.  That might put just enough doubt in a jury's mind to go below the threshold of being beyond a reasonable doubt.  That would be grounds for acquittal.

Granted, I knew the reasons for submitting my fingerprints all times, and did not object.  That doesn't mean you can't feel differently.


----------



## Carol (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm in emergency communications.   The primary reason for GPS trackers for a front line of defense (such as security personnel) is so a person can be found when they are unresponsive.  A person may be unresponsive for many reasons -- faulty RF transmissions, a medical emergency, or more unpleasant situations such as being overtaken by smoke or an encounter with a violent perpetrator.

It is certainly possible that they are using them to track movements and making sure that people on rounds are truly on rounds.  Before GPS this sort of thing was typically done with magnetic keys that would be swiped at checkpoints.  

I can understand the discomfort to such a situation, but its not necessarily about stalking the worker.  Rather, its a way of being able to get to the location of the person in need.  Some more advanced devices contain a gyro to report if a person is down or not -- down+immobile could very well mean that the responder's life is in immediate danger.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 2, 2014)

Carol said:


> I'm in emergency communications.   The primary reason for GPS trackers for a front line of defense (such as security personnel) is so a person can be found when they are unresponsive.  A person may be unresponsive for many reasons -- faulty RF transmissions, a medical emergency, or more unpleasant situations such as being overtaken by smoke or an encounter with a violent perpetrator.
> 
> It is certainly possible that they are using them to track movements and making sure that people on rounds are truly on rounds.  Before GPS this sort of thing was typically done with magnetic keys that would be swiped at checkpoints.
> 
> I can understand the discomfort to such a situation, but its not necessarily about stalking the worker.  Rather, its a way of being able to get to the location of the person in need.  Some more advanced devices contain a gyro to report if a person is down or not -- down+immobile could very well mean that the responder's life is in immediate danger.



Exactly. They will not make the current clocking system redundant. There is no point in a GPS tracker other than to spy. Simply put the two systems would contradict each other. Exactly what they want!


----------

