# Kenpo or Kempo



## stephentsd (Jun 6, 2007)

Hi guys, i have a question about your style, i've had a look through the forum and i cant find the answer so appologies if it's been spoken about! But i keep seeing Kenpo and Kempo, are these the same Martial Art? Just different spelling much like with us in Tang Soo Do it can be Dang Soo Do and Tang Soo Do, and if there are differences in Kenpo/Kempo what are they?

I have in interest in Kenpo, my sisters ex-boyfriend was a 2nd Dan at Kenpo Karate but he moved from the area and the style is only taught where he was from and in London. Also movie, i forget the name, starring Jeff Wolfe was based on Kenpo Karate. 

Take care and happy training, i look forward to your reply's


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## 14 Kempo (Jun 6, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> Hi guys, i have a question about your style, i've had a look through the forum and i cant find the answer so appologies if it's been spoken about! But i keep seeing Kenpo and Kempo, are these the same Martial Art? Just different spelling much like with us in Tang Soo Do it can be Dang Soo Do and Tang Soo Do, and if there are differences in Kenpo/Kempo what are they?
> 
> I have in interest in Kenpo, my sisters ex-boyfriend was a 2nd Dan at Kenpo Karate but he moved from the area and the style is only taught where he was from and in London. Also movie, i forget the name, starring Jeff Wolfe was based on Kenpo Karate.
> 
> Take care and happy training, i look forward to your reply's


 
To some it is Dang Kenpo or Dang Kempo, depending on the day and yes, they too are interchangeable ... :rofl: ... couldn't resist.

Well, basically same here. Kenpo and Kempo are interchangable as well.


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## Emptyhand (Jun 6, 2007)

One of the several movies out depicting Kenpo most notably would be Jeff Speakman in "The Perfect Weapon".


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## Blindside (Jun 6, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> Hi guys, i have a question about your style, i've had a look through the forum and i cant find the answer so appologies if it's been spoken about! But i keep seeing Kenpo and Kempo, are these the same Martial Art? Just different spelling much like with us in Tang Soo Do it can be Dang Soo Do and Tang Soo Do, and if there are differences in Kenpo/Kempo what are they?


 
The words are both English translations of the same Japanese writing, meaning fist law or fist method.  However the term is as broad as "karate" or "kung fu," there are many sub-systems and styles that make up the range of kem/npo.  In general tendencies, kempo seems to be used more by Okinawan/Japanese systems.  To muddle the waters somewhat the kenpo or kempo names are taken by different members of Professors Chow's lineages.  That particular lineage has a pretty high offshoot rate so there are lots of different systems and curricullums under it.

Clear as mud?

Lamont


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 6, 2007)

They are all different.
Sean


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## stephentsd (Jun 6, 2007)

Thanks guys, yeah i meant Jeff Speakman!


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## Doc (Jun 7, 2007)

14 Kempo said:


> To some it is Dang Kenpo or Dang Kempo, depending on the day and yes, they too are interchangeable ... :rofl: ... couldn't resist.
> 
> Well, basically same here. Kenpo and Kempo are interchangable as well.



Sorry but the two are not interchangeable, with the "m" being tied mostly to a Japanese/Okinawan Lineage, while the "n" being Chinese in spite of their linquistic similarities and cultural origins.


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## marlon (Jun 7, 2007)

in the west it seems that the 'n' is more associated with american kenpo and its derivatives and the 'm' more associated with shaolin kempo (Villari) and its derivatives.  As for the japanese chinese relations i always thougth it was the opposite to what Doc said but i think he would probably know better that myself about these things

respectfully,
marlon


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## DavidCC (Jun 7, 2007)

marlon said:


> in the west it seems that the 'n' is more associated with american kenpo and its derivatives and the 'm' more associated with shaolin kempo (Villari) and its derivatives. As for the japanese chinese relations i always thougth it was the opposite to what Doc said but i think he would probably know better that myself about these things
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
I think it's kindof ironic really.

"Shaolin kempo" is further from "chinese" than "American Kenpo" despite the name or whatever stories Fred Villari told about his origins.  American kenpo does not trace it's Chinese influence to Chow really as far as I know but to Wong.  Please someone who was there correct me if I am wrong 

As far as I can tell from the senior people I have asked and read about - let's start at the beginning: the Black Belt society at Palama.  Some sources disagree but one of these 5 men probably had chinese martial arts experience.  So there is an influence there.  Follow it down to Gascon, Pesare, Cerio... no chinese influences there.  TKD, Shotokan, jujutsu all get involved.  

Then Villari goes all chinesey on it LOL, but where did he get that material from?  The most believeable story I have read was posted by Mr. Al Cunnigham describing a transfer of information from some Chinese teachers in the Boston area to Fred Villari through his wife and his senior students.  This could be non-trivial but it is far from deep IMHO.

Much later the USSD would engage in buying credibility from Shaolin Disney (r) brought to you by the Red Army Inc, (c) 1928, 1974 All Rights Reserved but I don't think that is in any way relevant to the amount of Chinese Martial Arts knowledge contained with the "Kempo" styles that evolved out of the KJKB/Gascon lineage.

Now, it is possible and I don't want to discount the possibility that Prof. Chow did have an understanding of CMA.  That is far from proven (or disproven IMHO).  But I don't think Ed Parker _really_ considered the kenpo he brought from hawaii to be "Chinese" did he?  Didn't that come later, in L.A., with Ark Wong?


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## Jdokan (Jun 7, 2007)

marlon said:


> in the west it seems that the 'n' is more associated with american kenpo and its derivatives and the 'm' more associated with shaolin kempo (Villari) and its derivatives. As for the japanese chinese relations i always thougth it was the opposite to what Doc said but i think he would probably know better that myself about these things
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


At one time Fred labelled his art Kenpo....He changed to Kempo..
So Most of here in New England that were once Npo are now Mpo....I have gone back to the Npo myself....


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## Monadnock (Jun 7, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> Hi guys, i have a question about your style, i've had a look through the forum and i cant find the answer so appologies if it's been spoken about! But i keep seeing Kenpo and Kempo, are these the same Martial Art? Just different spelling much like with us in Tang Soo Do it can be Dang Soo Do and Tang Soo Do, and if there are differences in Kenpo/Kempo what are they?
> 
> I have in interest in Kenpo, my sisters ex-boyfriend was a 2nd Dan at Kenpo Karate but he moved from the area and the style is only taught where he was from and in London. Also movie, i forget the name, starring Jeff Wolfe was based on Kenpo Karate.
> 
> Take care and happy training, i look forward to your reply's


 
The spelling varies from system to system. As you can see from the other posts, there are a lot of Ken/mpo's out there. Kempo is the spelling of Ken and Po put together. These are 2 Japanese words. When put together, n becomes m when followed by p, to put it simply. But the Kempo spelling could refer to systems claiming to be Chinese based as well. Why? Who knows but once the arts reach our shore, most rules are off 

Hope you find what you are looking for.


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## Ray (Jun 7, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> Thanks guys, yeah i meant Jeff Speakman!


Then you want the kenpo that came through Ed Parker.  Usually it's spelled as Kenpo since James Mitose published a book spelling it as "Kenpo."

Some argue that it was a spelling error.  However there other examples of the  kanji being spelled in English as Kenpo by other native Japanese speakers as well.  The Japanese pronunciation of the two words is "ken" and "po" but when you speak them together we kind of say "kempo."

Kinda like saying "women."  It is far from "wo" plus "men"

Chow claimed his father, who was from China, taught him some of the Chinese arts.  This is disputed by others who say the art is derived from only the Japanese arts.

Ed Parker did write of Mistose's art being "linear" and not as effective as it could be.  Ed Parker also wrote that Chow's art had circularity that Mitose didn't and that Chow as very effective.

Ed Parker also studied Chinese arts with others.


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## marlon (Jun 7, 2007)

just for the record it still seems that the m spellings are Villari derivatives and the n spellings are Parker derivatives (an exception being GM Castro).  this has nothing to do with chinese japanese..just something i noticed for the west

respectfully,
marlon


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## LawDog (Jun 7, 2007)

David C.
What I wrote was not a believeable story, it is a fact. I was there when it was brought into the early SKK system. I know the involved Chinese Masters. Much of the early material that was taught was from the Hungar system.
I think that you will find that the founders of the various Kenpo/Kempo systems spelled it the way that they wanted it to be spell. A few of the names were used to create a commercial image, lineage line and others spelled it so as to fit into the "flavor of the month".
Al C.


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## RevIV (Jun 7, 2007)

this could be the most simple explanation and totally wrong but its how i feel  (today)..  The students when forming their version wanted to be different then the  instructors (im talking east coast)
SGM Pesare --- KeMpo
Prof. Cerio --- KeNpo
GM Villari -- KeMpo
Masters Centers -- KeNpo
Me -- Kempo -- not to be different from my teachers out here but because my first black belt diploma says KeMpo

its generational..  I have heard every single one of the arguements that have been posted.. used some of them myself before.  Also - I have an old ad of Mitose's-  and it def. reads KeMpo.  I have heard one version of his book has M the other N.. also within the same book it is different.  (I have not seen this only heresay)
Jesse


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## LawDog (Jun 7, 2007)

Valid points Jessie. I have a few very 50's & 60's Kosho ryu books some where. Tonight after class I will look for them and check out the Kempo/Kenpo spelling.


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## John Bishop (Jun 7, 2007)

RevIV said:


> this could be the most simple explanation and totally wrong but its how i feel  (today)..  The students when forming their version wanted to be different then the  instructors (im talking east coast)
> SGM Pesare --- KeMpo
> Prof. Cerio --- KeNpo
> GM Villari -- KeMpo
> ...



It's a toss up.  In my old correspondance's from George Pesare, he spelled it "keNpo".  For some reason, at a later date he chose to change to "keMpo".  Just like he changed "Karazenpo Goshin Jitsu" to "Zenpo Goshin Jutsu" for a while. 
Thomas Young stated (not hearsay, he told me) that Mitose and his students  always spelled it "keNpo".  But yet there's old newspaper clippings and adds where it's spelled "keMpo".  Maybe the newspaper reporters, or the people taking the add information spelled it that way?  Who knows now.
Prof. Chow spelled it "keNpo"  for  decades.  In the 70's he changed it to "keMpo".  The most heard of reason was "to distinguish his system from the Parker system of kenpo". 

The spelling difference really doesn't mean much anymore since it is spelled both ways by the Japanese, Okinawans, Hawaiians, and mainland schools.   And many of these systems have no connection at all.


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## Doc (Jun 7, 2007)

Essentially all of you are correct. Sometimes in the interest of researching the "whys' and origins and history of some things, we can make them more complex, (and as such convoluted) than they really are.

Japanese translating from the Chinese Chuanfa kanji gives us the English "m" spelling for technical reasons of the language. However an English translation gives us the "n" without the Japanese technicalities of its translations. So those whose lineage is more Japanese favor the "m" with the Chinese version "n" prone.

Chow being Chinese American utilized the "n" version, but so did some Okinawa's who drew originally from the Chinese. Also those from Hawaii regardless of lineage seemed to favor the English "n."

But then after leaving it"s Hawaiian roots, It was simply a matter of marketing of a product, and "adjusting" for lineage preferences in an effort to carve out a distinctive identity from that that already existed.

Ed Parker mirrored these sentiments and elaborated by speaking of other "commercial" arts that were "created" and sprang into existence in form on the mainland to sell. Martial arts was beginning to come out of the College universities and YMCA backrooms to the store front to satisfy the American appetite, and latch onto the American Dollar. 

The "professional martial artist" was born. Not that some didn't have legitimate roots and lineage, but modifications to sell a product was evident and Parker embraced it himself as well. 

Ultimately this commerciality permeated all styles from every lineage in time, and all reasonable rules of style names, lineages, etc gave way to marketing in an effort to carve out a piece of the American Dream Pie.

Attempting to make "sense" in this environment is an exercise in futility at best. Even Parker had to admit the futility of it all. His own art(s) and split off lineages were all constructs of cultural contridictions. His Kenpo was Chinese in origin, infused with Okinawan/Japanese influences that changed to Chinese on the mainland, than "Americanized" for marketing.

Now everything is "karate" with a modifier whether it be TKD-Karate, JKD-Karate, Japanese Kempo Karate, Chinese Kenpo Karate, Shaolin Kempo Karate, etc. The next phase is a convert back to jiujitsu, now packaged and commercialized and Americanized into Brazillian, MMA, NHB. etc.

All the signage and windows that back in the day said "Karate," changed to "Taekwondo/Karate," to "Kung-Fu/Karate," than "Ninjitsu/Karate" for a while. Now that "Karate" has become saturated and generic, - UFC/MMA/NHB Jiujtsu grappling whatever Pay-Per-View style is a part of everyones teaching. Truth is, you have to actually see and evaluate everything on an individual basis to untangle the commercial mesh mash of marketed martial products and names.

What happened to the purists? - They either went out of business along time ago, or still have jobs to support themselves and them dam daughters.


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## marlon (Jun 8, 2007)

and sons


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## Jdokan (Jun 8, 2007)

What happened to the purists? - They either went out of business along time ago, or still have jobs to support themselves and them dam daughters. [/quote]
I think they still teach out of their garages, barns, etc.....doing what they love...Maybe passing down to a select few....Outside of the dojo aren't we all purists....in our own minds....


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## DavidCC (Jun 8, 2007)

LawDog said:


> David C.
> What I wrote was not a believeable story, it is a fact. I was there when it was brought into the early SKK system. I know the involved Chinese Masters. Much of the early material that was taught was from the Hungar system.


 
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were less than truthful or anything like that.  I just meant, that is what you wrote, but I didn't have any concrete, independant proof of it, which is why I used the word "story".  

In my own mind, what I think of as the "story" or "history" of Shaolin kempo, I have accepted that as the facts... but I don't have any way to convince anyone else that it is so.  In other words, I believe you 

-david


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jun 8, 2007)

Doc said:


> Sorry but the two are not interchangeable, with the "m" being tied mostly to a Japanese/Okinawan Lineage, while the "n" being Chinese in spite of their linquistic similarities and cultural origins.


 
That statement is incorrect as I'm reading it.  Perhaps I'm reading it wrong but Kempo and Kenpo are romanizations of the same Japanese word.  Kempo is actually the proper romanization much like Jujutsu was first romanized as Jujuitsu then Jujitsu and then it was figured out that Jujutsu was the proper one.

The only Chinese connection being that the Japanese use Kanji which is a Chinese system of writing.  Kanji is not a phonetic (sound oriented) system of writing but rather a pictoral system supposedly derived from fortune telling and the patterns bones would land in.  Written in Chinese Kanji it comes from 2 Kanji together.  The 1st Kanji is for Fist, Ken in Japanese.  The 2nd Kanji for Law, Ho in Japanese.  When pronounce together by the Japanese Ken and Ho sound like Kempo.  In Mandarain the same Kanji are said as Chuan Fa and in Cantonese.  This is what I know but I don't claim to know it all. Perhaps there is a Chinese dialect that uses the word Kenpo for these Kanji that I don't know of but it would have to be a very obscure one.

Now if someone was teaching a true Shaolin Martial Art it would be called Shaolin Chuan Fa or Shaolin Gung Fu because the Shaolin Temple is in an area that uses the Mandarin Dialect.  In Japan they would translate it to Shorinji Kempo.  I know nothing of the history so I'm not disputing anything but the irony of the term Shaolin Kempo is that you are using a Chinese word together with a Japanese word to describe something in an English speaking country.

_Don Flatt


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## Ray (Jun 8, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> That statement is incorrect as I'm reading it.  Perhaps I'm reading it wrong but Kempo and Kenpo are romanizations of the same Japanese word.  Kempo is actually the proper romanization much like Jujutsu was first romanized as Jujuitsu then Jujitsu and then it was figured out that Jujutsu was the proper one.


The translation into English of the branch of arts that came to the Western World from China to Okinawa to Japan, is generally referred to as Kempo.

The translation into English of the art that traces its roots through William K.S. Chow is generally referred to as Kenpo.

The translation of the same characters when referring to the peace-time Japanese constitution that I've seen most often is Kenpo.


Kosho Gakkusei said:


> The only Chinese connection being that the Japanese use Kanji which is a Chinese system of writing.  Kanji is not a phonetic (sound oriented) system of writing but rather a pictoral system supposedly derived from fortune telling and the patterns bones would land in.  Written in Chinese Kanji it comes from 2 Kanji together.  The 1st Kanji is for Fist, Ken in Japanese.  The 2nd Kanji for Law, Ho in Japanese.  When pronounce together by the Japanese Ken and Ho sound like Kempo.  In Mandarain the same Kanji are said as Chuan Fa and in Cantonese.  This is what I know but I don't claim to know it all. Perhaps there is a Chinese dialect that uses the word Kenpo for these Kanji that I don't know of but it would have to be a very obscure one.


I don't believe that the word "Kanji" is Chinese...I believe it is a Japanese-ization of a Chinese word "Han-zi."  Kind of like kenpo and kempo are Japanese-zation of the phrase "chu'an fa"

I get the feeling that the people who were involved in Kenpo in Hawaii were  more concerned with learning the art and using it more than translating languages.  If someone shows you a motorized material handling device and says "this is a forklift" or "this is a tow-motor" you're probably going to refer to it as he does and the people around you do.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but I'm sticking with Kenpo as the  name of the art I practice.


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## Doc (Jun 8, 2007)

As I said before, basically "everyone" is right for various reasons. Basically within China Chaufa/Chanshu, outside China translations a go-go Kenpo/kempo. I suggest to resolve this completely, we all work on out stances.


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## Ray (Jun 8, 2007)

Doc said:


> I suggest to resolve this completely, we all work on our stances.


I can't work on stances until I finish working on the foot-work that gets me from stance to stance....See what a few hours at your place did to me...the more I learn the less I know.


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## Doc (Jun 8, 2007)

Ray said:


> I can't work on stances until I finish working on the foot-work that gets me from stance to stance....See what a few hours at your place did to me...the more I learn the less I know.


You know, I was saying the same thing to myself last night in class, and then I remembered Ed Parker said the same thing to me.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jun 8, 2007)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> In Mandarain the same Kanji are said as Chuan Fa and in Cantonese


 
I forgot to write that in Cantonese the same Kanji or Hanzi are said Can Fat.


_Don Flatt


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## LawDog (Jun 9, 2007)

David C.
I understand now, was my error, no problemo.
:ultracool


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## Doc (Jun 9, 2007)

Ray said:


> I can't work on stances until I finish working on the foot-work that gets me from stance to stance....See what a few hours at your place did to me...the more I learn the less I know.



"The road to greatnest is paved by the knowledge that what we know is very little." - Ed Parker


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