# Vote: Reorganized Reputation System.



## Bob Hubbard

Over the last few years, we've heard from some members that they felt there were various problems with the rep system.  In order to resolve some of the complaints, we're taking a poll.

The options are:

1- Leave it as it is.

2- Reset it to zero, and restart it under new rules.

3- Drop it entirely.


The rules it would be restarted under if that is the community choice are:
Default Rep Score: 10 points

Register Date Factor: 365
For every X number of days, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power.

Post Count Factor: 5,000
For every X number of posts, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power.

Reputation Point Factor: 5,000
For every X points of reputation, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power.

Minimum Post Count: 5
How many posts must a user have before his reputation hits count on others?

Minimum Reputation Count: 5
How much reputation must a user have before his reputation hits count on others?

Daily Reputation Clicks Limit: 10
How many reputation clicks can a user give over each 24 hour period? Administrators are exempt from this limit.

Reputation User Spread: 20
How many different users must you give reputation to before you can hit the same person again? Administrators are exempt from this limit.

All Rep would be public (no anonymous repping)
All staff would operate under the same rules as members.


Award levels would be adjusted and modified so that it doesn't take forever between levels, but one person couldn't 'rep' you and send you up or down 4 levels in 1 shot.

Poll runs until the end of the month, majority decision will be honored and implemented the beginning of September.

Thank you.


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## shesulsa

My thoughts on reputation period.


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## Andrew Green

One technical problem leaving it as it is, that in a year, those rows of stars are going to be long...  really long...  It's not that much over a year since the first star came up, now the highest is 12(?) in another year at that rate we could hit 100 stars.


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## thardey

Definitely keep the rep system - before I got to know some individuals in the forum, the rep system was great for knowing who was respected here, and who's questions and answers I could trust.

It's sort of like a belt-ranking system on the web - people who have more rank than me are people who I can confidently ask questions of, and learn from. I have a responsibility to people who are lower ranked than me to help them.

If you just have rank based on the number of posts, you get a lot of the "me too" type posts than just clutter up the system. The number of posts people put up doesn't mean that they are respected here.

About how it should be reorganized? I haven't been here long enough to have any input on that question.


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## OUMoose

Does the rep system really make THAT much of a difference?  God forbid people actually read the thread and form their own opinion.


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## Ceicei

What's going to happen to all the rep comments?  Do we get to keep them?  I don't care if the rep count is lost, but the comments are what makes the rep of worth.  Change the rep value, but let us keep the comments.

- Ceicei


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## exile

Bob, I'd like to suggest another possibility for the new rules:  staff don't participate in the rep system, as was suggested to me by another member whose views I have a high regard for. My own view of rep is that its biggest advantage is rewarding people early in their posting history on MT to contribute and get into the conversation at the most thoughtful and insightful level they can. By the time you get to staff, there seems little point in further rep accumulation; by that point, we are who we are, and pretty much known quantities. 

Just another wrinkle....


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## Andrew Green

Ceicei said:


> What's going to happen to all the rep comments?  Do we get to keep them?  I don't care if the rep count is lost, but the comments are what makes the rep of worth.  Change the rep value, but let us keep the comments.
> 
> - Ceicei




They could be kept.  I could wipe the values off and leave all the comments.


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## Brian R. VanCise

exile said:


> Bob, I'd like to suggest another possibility for the new rules: staff don't participate in the rep system, as was suggested to me by another member whose views I have a high regard for. My own view of rep is that its biggest advantage is rewarding people early in their posting history on MT to contribute and get into the conversation at the most thoughtful and insightful level they can. By the time you get to staff, there seems little point in further rep accumulation; by that point, we are who we are, and pretty much known quantities.
> 
> Just another wrinkle....


 
Not a bad choice.  I would be just as happy not to participate in the rep system anymore and yet I see Exile point above in getting people involved and posting thoughtfully.  On the negative side if somone receives negative reputation then it also shows at that point who and how they are posting.


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## 14 Kempo

OK, resetting to zero is really not all that fair. Some people have worked hard to acquire rep points. *How about the idea of resetting the system, leaving each person with one-tenth of their current total, or some factor thereof.* At least this will still show who is respected as far as posting is concerned.


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## MBuzzy

I've also seen other boards that don't have stars, the comments that you get when you hold your mouse on the rep bars just change.  It eliminates the constellations.  

There could also be a purple star to equal 5 or red to equal 10 or something to that effect.

Like some others, I would like to keep the comments if nothing else.


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## grydth

With the sincerest thanks to anyone and everyone who ever gave me a good rep point, in my opinion.... please do away with the system.

The Forum itself, by its nature, allows people to express what they feel about anything I post.... so, let's say Brian agrees with something I say, while Exile demurs.... each can come out and say that in a reply post of theirs, *with resultant benefits to the general conversation.* 

I recommend that one judge people by the contents of an individual post.... somebody could have 10 stars, and yet be dead wrong on an individual topic.

The current system allows those few **** here to negative rep others, without entering into the general debate or even giving their name. Sorry, but if you haven't got the smarts or the stones for a discussion or a fight.... who wants or needs to hear from you anyway?:ak47:

I believe that Bob & staff could award honors, in the name of the forum, to those deserving. 

Just my 72c....


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## Bob Hubbard

There are some other systems we can add that will do away with the "yup" replies.  One we've had great luck with on KenpoTalk is the "Thanks" system.  You just click a little "Thank you" button, and it shows your support in a non-annoying way.  The "No Thanks" system works the same way.

I'm personally finding that I use the current rep system less and less.  As my ability grows to godlike levels, what I mean as a simple encouragement or discouragement suddenly elevates someone or drops em 3-4 levels in 1 shot.


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## Ceicei

Bob Hubbard said:


> There are some other systems we can add that will do away with the "yup" replies.  One we've had great luck with on KenpoTalk is the "Thanks" system.  You just click a little "Thank you" button, and it shows your support in a non-annoying way.  The "No Thanks" system works the same way.
> 
> I'm personally finding that I use the current rep system less and less.  As my ability grows to godlike levels, what I mean as a simple encouragement or discouragement suddenly elevates someone or drops em 3-4 levels in 1 shot.



What KenpoTalk works for them.  I would rather keep MartialTalk's system different.  I like the ability to leave comments.  Threads do not need simple public posts of merely "I agree" or "I disagree", when a rep comment will do just fine for that purpose.  Let the threads keep the meat for discussion.  The rep comments are just the hidden frosting that the ones who made the posts can enjoy.

The buttons and stars aren't really that necessary.  The values of these need to be modified.  Maybe one point value for each rep made rather than having them multiply in power.

- Ceicei


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## grydth

Bob Hubbard said:


> As my ability grows to godlike levels, what I mean as a simple encouragement or discouragement suddenly elevates someone or drops em 3-4 levels in 1 shot.



 In the event that the current reputation system is not changed, kindly supply a rate sheet along with preferred bribery items....:angel:


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## JBrainard

grydth said:


> The current system allows those few **** here to negative rep others, without entering into the general debate or even giving their name. Sorry, but if you haven't got the smarts or the stones for a discussion or a fight.... who wants or needs to hear from you anyway?


 
Why don't we just get rid of negative rep'ing altogether. It seems like it is mis-used just as much as it is used appropriately. Kill it I say.


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## terryl965

All this crap over a rep. please some of us have earned our reps though post whoring. Whu should I be put out for a few others.


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## exile

grydth said:


> I recommend that one judge people by the contents of an individual post.... somebody could have 10 stars, and yet be dead wrong on an individual topic.



I hear ya! 

I'd be _very_ happy with a scaled-down system that eliminated negative rep&#8212;folks, note that people who rapidly accumulate red dots almost alway wind up off the board pretty quickly; relentlessly offensive and obnoxious posters don't last long here, because they general violate the Terms of Service in short order to such an extent that they get banned;  rewarded individual good posts with rep, but not rep which depended on the rep of the awarder, for just the reason Grydth pointed out; and left staff outside the rep system. Of these, the most important I think is the dissociation of rep power from rep size. As per Bob's post...



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I'm personally finding that I use the current rep system less and less. As my ability grows to godlike levels, what I mean as a simple encouragement or discouragement suddenly elevates someone or drops em 3-4 levels in 1 shot.



So imagine the situation when your rep power reflects 12 gold stars plus, i.e., 1222 points. _That's one and a half gold pips per rep._ Twelve members whose perspective and control of fact and argument is at least as good as mine, but who only have 100 rep points each, can rep X,  and it amounts to the same thing as if I alone rep X. Or Y, who thinks X has never been right once in his/her life. Rep power that is tied to the rep awarder's own rep doesn't do the job that I think was originally envisaged for it: the fact is, there isn't necessarily any correlation between how much rep you have and how valuable the contribution is that you assign rep to. So that seems to me to be a fundamental problem that arises when the rep you yourself have and the size of the rep number you can award are linked in the way they currently are. 

I think the other issues are important too, but the exponential growth of rep power with rep size is the single biggest factor leading to the problem Andy noted earlier. The system just _can't_ continue as it has been....


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## Sukerkin

As ever *Exile* strikes to the core of the problem.  

It's not the rep system per se that is at fault but the _multiplier effect_ - I think it's one reason why people who have proven their worth (and so have a lot of rep-power) don't actually give out rep very often i.e. they recognise that it's unbalancing.

Now, I have to put my cards on the table and say that I don't think that there's anything wrong with the system as it is but I do see that it can be open to abuse by those who choose to operate outside of the spirit of it.  

Also, there is the selfish point that I _like_ the fact that I have accumulated some rep since I've become active here - it's good to know that I can talk sense occaisionally - and I would hate to have that all wiped away by a 'system reset'.

However, the counterpoint has already been made that the Rep Stars don't actually make any impact on whether you agree or not with what someone says.  

What they do do, for new members, is give them an idea of what the underlying philosophy of the board is.  By this I mean that (if you twig what the 'stars' mean (and I didn't )) you can see who has received plaudits from their peers and by reading their posts gather an idea of what concepts and attitudes are 'consensus' around here.

So, what does it matter if someone has a gazillion stars?  Other than display difficulties that is?  It's merely a visual indication for those who don't 'know' us that, on the whole that member speaks sense, as the general caucaus of the board sees it.

My general opinion is that it 'ain't broke' so don't try and 'fix' it but there is the provsio to this that *Exile* mentioned - the multi-star-multiplier effect.  Remove that and all would be well I feel.

Tho' as a small counter-balance, I have just used my moderate rep-muscle to undo what I perceived as malicious negative repping to another member.  Perhaps the ability to remove unwarranted blemishes could be a priviledge of the Moderating staff?

EDIT: I haven't voted in the poll as I don't entirely agree with any of the options.  If I had to place my mark then it would be for Option 1.


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## arnisador

Andrew Green said:


> I could wipe the values off and leave all the comments.



Basically, a rapid PM system? Early on it seemed that most rep. I got amounted to stuff that should have been sent by PM--that rep. became the IM with PMs being the analogue of e-mail. It was handy, and when no one had much repping power, it didn't seem like a big deal.

Encouraging new (and other) users, having a quick message utility, and being able to leave a "Me too" comment without putting it in the actual thread, are all benefits of the system. Without points it would lose the "game" aspect. (See e.g.  PORTALS  By LEE GOMES/Success and Greed in Web Point Payouts _Yahoo gives out points for asking and answering questions on Yahoo Answers, to get people to participate. But this is leading to some unexpected results -- like 889 instances of the question "Why is the sky blue?"_; also cf. lindens in Second Life. People buy those with real dollars, much as rep. has been unofficially offered here by some users for people buying upgraded memberships.) I think that removing the points would be a good thing. For one thing, red-rep posters might be less discouraged! As others have also stated, high-rep. people move people in either direction a great distance with a single click, for no apparently sound reason. (The "Thanks/No Thanks" system sounds interesting but I am not familiar with it.) There are arcade games for accumulating points here, threads that expressly state their purpose as "keeping our post count up," clubs to join and banners to acquire, and other ways to play the who-has-more game.

I voted to do away with the system based on the proposed new rules Kaith gave, but keeping it without points--even if it had a clear thumbs-up/thumbs-down marker that only the recipient could see--makes a lot of sense to me.


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## morph4me

I voted to leave it as it is, but zeroing out and starting from scratch has it's appeal too. I think that adjusting the award levels would so that it doesn't take forever between levels, but one person couldn't 'rep' you and send you up or down 4 levels in 1 shot is probably the only real change that I'd like to see. It isn't a perfect system, but what system is, and it does have it's value to new members. I liked the fact that when I first became a member I could see who had the respect of the other members. I didn't always agree, but it was a good benchmark.


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## donna

Ceicei said:


> What KenpoTalk works for them. I would rather keep MartialTalk's system different. I like the ability to leave comments. Threads do not need simple public posts of merely "I agree" or "I disagree", when a rep comment will do just fine for that purpose. Let the threads keep the meat for discussion. The rep comments are just the hidden frosting that the ones who made the posts can enjoy.
> 
> *The buttons and stars aren't really that necessary. The values of these need to be modified. Maybe one point value for each rep made rather than having them multiply in power*.
> 
> - Ceicei


I agree with Ceicei here. The one point value for each rep seem a good idea. Most definately keep the comments.


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## bluemtn

exile said:


> Bob, I'd like to suggest another possibility for the new rules: staff don't participate in the rep system, as was suggested to me by another member whose views I have a high regard for. My own view of rep is that its biggest advantage is rewarding people early in their posting history on MT to contribute and get into the conversation at the most thoughtful and insightful level they can. By the time you get to staff, there seems little point in further rep accumulation; by that point, we are who we are, and pretty much known quantities.
> 
> Just another wrinkle....


 


MBuzzy said:


> I've also seen other boards that don't have stars, the comments that you get when you hold your mouse on the rep bars just change. It eliminates the constellations.
> 
> There could also be a purple star to equal 5 or red to equal 10 or something to that effect.
> 
> Like some others, I would like to keep the comments if nothing else.


 

I like the idea of the staff not participating in the rep system, myself...  We're staff for a reason.  If we do something "wrong", we'll know about it, right?  So, what's the point in mod's with rep. points, other than showing we're positive contributors?  Well, duh!  That's one of the reasons we are where we are...

I also vote (yeah, I changed my mind on what I said several months ago) to reset the reps.  Now, I don't mean everyone should get reset, but perhaps once you get (lets say) 1,500 rep. points, then reset, but keeping the star.  I also think that the rep power should be really decreased, either everyone at the same level, or only increasing slightly...  Or, I also like the different star colors.  Instead of getting multiple stars, just the star changes color.  Another idea is (I'm full of them  ) to a person can only get a certain amount of stars, and that's as far as you can go.

I like the rep system.  It's not important, but it's nice...  Also, I like the idea of not having anonymous rep.


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## jks9199

I voted to leave it alone...

But I've thought of one idea, along the lines of several others.

I see two generic ways to address the ability of some folks to have more influence with a single rep...  The first is easy.  Set a max rep power; I don't care if you have twelve hundred stars; your rep power never grows beyond 999 points (or whatever level seems reasonable).  You still can tell who's getting more rep (and presumably making more powerful contributions), but nobody can use a single rep to blow someone stratospherically high, either.

Or...  A flip side.  As your rep power increases, the impact of rep given you decreases.  Maybe each star divides rep rep received by 10...  So, Bob still reps me with 1200 points, but, since I've got 5 stars... I only get 600 points credit.

I don't know how feasible either approach is; I expect the first is simplest.


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## Blotan Hunka

I voted to restart it under new rules, but I dont think that starting from zero is all that great either. And I do agree with exile too. Admins, staff etc. shouldnt participate. Their unlimited power in regards to repping just casts a shadow of favoritism over the whole thing. Either dont play or play by the EXACT SAME rules as everybody else.


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## Andrew Green

Blotan Hunka said:


> I voted to restart it under new rules, but I dont think that starting from zero is all that great either. And I do agree with exile too. Admins, staff etc. shouldnt participate. Their unlimited power in regards to repping just casts a shadow of favoritism over the whole thing. Either dont play or play by the EXACT SAME rules as everybody else.



Moderators follow the exact same rules as everyone else.

Admins can break the rules, we could change scores directly if we wanted.  But we don't. We are not unable to break the rules, that doesn't mean we do though.


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## Rich Parsons

I voted to restart.

I like to enter the floor from time to time with an empty cup.

I think the expansion rate is growing and will become an issue. 

I do like the idea of limits.

I do like the idea and support the use of negative rep. I always signed mine anyways.

If it is left the same I can live with it.

If it is turned off I can live with that. 

I was asked to vote, and so I also expressed my point, so if there is a tie the powers to be can review and get a feel of how people are leaning.

Good Luck


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## exile

tkdgirl said:


> I like the idea of the staff not participating in the rep system, myself...  We're staff for a reason.  If we do something "wrong", we'll know about it, right?  So, what's the point in mod's with rep. points, other than showing we're positive contributors?  Well, duh!  That's one of the reasons we are where we are...



I agree, and I also think that the staff's main responsibility may well be to bring others into the everlasting discussion and encourage them to stay there and contribute without fear of being bullied or intimidated. We know of other MA boards where the most aggessive and hostile voices dominate the discussion, and we also know how voices like that are dealt with on MT. That role is I think the staff's main contribution, and it's a crucial one if the board is to continue as it is. But I see it as something outside of, and complementary to, the point/counterpoint that the rep system was set up to encourage.




Sukerkin said:


> So, what does it matter if someone has a gazillion stars?  Other than display difficulties that is?  It's merely a visual indication for those who don't 'know' us that, on the whole that member speaks sense, as the general caucaus of the board sees it.



So the yield of the rep system is really a kind of snapshot summary of the `mind of the board' in some abstract sense?... cool idea! That's a very useful way to view it, I think.




Sukerkin said:


> My general opinion is that it 'ain't broke' so don't try and 'fix' it but there is the provsio to this that *Exile* mentioned - the multi-star-multiplier effect.  Remove that and all would be well I feel.



Yesthat's gotta be fixed, if we don't want Andrew's 100+ star scenario.



Sukerkin said:


> Tho' as a small counter-balance, I have just used my moderate rep-muscle to undo what I perceived as malicious negative repping to another member.  Perhaps the ability to remove unwarranted blemishes could be a priviledge of the Moderating staff?



I've done the same, of a time, Mark. It's one of the best uses of rep-power I can think of. A lot of times neg rep is justified, but not always. I'm actually with those who would prefer to see it eliminated from any revised system...


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## Carol

The engineer in me says "this is just a board feature".

However, the timbre of the complaints seem to indicate that this isn't really about a board feature, its about _perceptions of favoritism_...whether those perceptions are justified or not.

Given that some of the more recent discussions have been very heated...I'm concerned that these perceptions will continue to grow as the rep system grows.  

I don't mind that someone may not see eye-to-eye with me, or that someone has criticism of me.  Because....its me.  

But for someone to think my rep score was acheived through favoritism or whatever...then that is a criticism that by default extends to all of the kind folks that pushed the button and shared their thoughts with me.  It hurts me to see their kindness obscured by these ill feelings.

The rep system It's something that overwhelmingly is used to share props.  Its supposed to be fun.  

If its not fun anymore, then IMO it is time to drop it.


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## shesulsa

Carol Kaur said:


> The engineer in me says "this is just a board feature".
> 
> However, the timbre of the complaints seem to indicate that this isn't really about a board feature, its about _perceptions of favoritism_...whether those perceptions are justified or not.
> 
> Given that some of the more recent discussions have been very heated...I'm concerned that these perceptions will continue to grow as the rep system grows.
> 
> I don't mind that someone may not see eye-to-eye with me, or that someone has criticism of me.  Because....its me.
> 
> But for someone to think my rep score was acheived through favoritism or whatever...then that is a criticism that by default extends to all of the kind folks that pushed the button and shared their thoughts with me.  It hurts me to see their kindness obscured by these ill feelings.
> 
> The rep system It's something that overwhelmingly is used to share props.  Its supposed to be fun.
> 
> If its not fun anymore, then IMO it is time to drop it.


artyon:


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## exile

shesulsa said:


> Carol Kaur said:
> 
> 
> 
> *But for someone to think my rep score was acheived through favoritism or whatever...then that is a criticism that by default extends to all of the kind folks that pushed the button and shared their thoughts with me.* It hurts me to see their kindness obscured by these ill feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> artyon:
Click to expand...


I'm with Shesulsa here. Especially so far as the bolded part is concerned.


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## Ella

One problem I see here;

It said basic "majority wins" poll. however, what if there are more people who vote for 2 and 3 when added than for 1, but 1 still singularly had the most votes?

That would imply more people voted for some sort of change, but weren't in agreement as to what kind. I would like to see it gone completely, but if I realized that wasn't going to happen, I would prefer to vote for a change as opposed to keeping it the same. 

Could we possibly vote for keeping it the same vs change? And if change wins, THEN vote on how its changed?


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## Bob Hubbard

Ella said:


> Could we possibly vote for keeping it the same vs change? And if change wins, THEN vote on how its changed?



Anyone against?


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## Carol

Bob Hubbard said:


> Anyone against?



I'm not against it at all.  That sounds like a GREAT idea.  Thanks for sharing it Ella! :asian:


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## exile

Bob Hubbard said:


> Anyone against?



Not me!I've been kind of _assuming_ that if the vote against the status quo added up to more than the vote for, then the system would change, one way or another.


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## Ella

exile said:


> Not me!&#8212;I've been kind of _assuming_ that if the vote against the status quo added up to more than the vote for, then the system would change, one way or another.



I've learned from experience to never assume things, if it can at all be avoided. Often times I assume things without even realizing I'm doing it, though.


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## exile

Ella said:


> I've learned from experience to never assume things, if it can at all be avoided. Often times I assume things without even realizing I'm doing it, though.



That's a good rule of thumb, for sure. But my own experience on this board has been that decision-making at the top level is fair. If most people showed they were unhappy with the current setup, I'd have been willing to bet high that management would accept that decision as the will of the board, no matter how it further broke down exactly.

A trickier issue might be exactly what changes to make should things fall that way. I guess we'll just have to burn that bridge when and if we come to it...


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## Sukerkin

Just make sure we're not standing on the bridge when we set fire to it :lol:.


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## Bob Hubbard

in the event of a tie, I'm going to make a decision, not that I know what it is yet as I haven't told myself.  Something about a 'need to know' basis, and I don't need to know yet I guess.


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## KempoGuy06

Bob Hubbard said:


> Anyone against?


 
I too think that sounds like a great idea. 



Bob Hubbard said:


> in the event of a tie, I'm going to make a decision, not that I know what it is yet as I haven't told myself. Something about a 'need to know' basis, and I don't need to know yet I guess.


 
This gave me a headache the first time I read it

B


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## Drac

Leave it as it is..If *SOMEONE *dislikes it *OR* has a problem with it they can simply opt *NOT* to participate...


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## morph4me

Carol Kaur said:


> I'm not against it at all. That sounds like a GREAT idea. Thanks for sharing it Ella! :asian:


 
I agree, great idea


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## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:


> Anyone against?



Speaking as a mathematician, I had the same thought...the second and third options make sense as separate possibilities, yet, they also serve to split the "change it" vote.



exile said:


> my own experience on this board has been that decision-making at the top level is fair.



Yeah, I agree. But *Ella*'s comment is about something that might have been overlooked--an inadvertent splitting of one "side" of the matter.


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## Blotan Hunka

looking around though, there isnt a whole lot of red rep out there, so who's complaining?


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## Drac

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> looking around though, there isnt a whole lot of red rep out there, so who's complaining?





Here ya go...



			
				Ella said:
			
		

> It wasn't meant to be an "I'm leaving" or "I'm infuriated" type post....
> 
> its just, to me, to a newer user, when EVERYONE has yellow dots, its hard to tell who are the more "respected" users. I mean, yellow is a pretty big deal elsewhere, but here, it's like I have to actually get to know the people before I decide whether or not their worth their weight in salt.


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## Ella

just so there's no confusion, that last bit was meant as a joke - but I still think it's a very real problem. If the point of reputation is supposed to tell newer users who are some of the more respected users, its inflated too much to be any actual use. Unless you stop to count. But its turning into constelations and fields of yellow.

It an ugly yellow, too.


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## 14 Kempo

Ella said:


> just so there's no confusion, that last bit was meant as a joke - but I still think it's a very real problem. If the point of reputation is supposed to tell newer users who are some of the more respected users, its inflated too much to be any actual use. Unless you stop to count. But its turning into constelations and fields of yellow.
> 
> It an ugly yellow, too.


 
If someone has a "field of yellow" does it really matter if it is 8 stars or 12? ... Seems they are both to be considered well respected .... just my two cents.


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## Ella

...EVERYONE has fields of yellow.

I mean, come on. Look at me, for instance. I have less than 3 years of training in the martial arts, I'm less than 25 years old... I still live at home for godsakes.

It's probably a safe bet that I don't know anything... about anything...

But you have two moderators rep you once for something clever you said, and look what you get?

I dont need to be walking around doing 96 points of damage, because my opinion really shouldn't be worth that much.


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## CoryKS

I say keep it.  While my rep score is right near the bottom of the list of things I worry about, I'm still enough of a karma whore that I'll spend an extra moment or two to soften a strongly-worded opinion to avoid the ding.  There are some who have chosen to disable reps in order to speak more freely, and from what I've seen it would be an ugly thing indeed if the system was done away with altogether.


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## Kacey

Ella said:


> ...EVERYONE has fields of yellow.
> 
> I mean, come on. Look at me, for instance. I have less than 3 years of training in the martial arts, I'm less than 25 years old... I still live at home for godsakes.
> 
> It's probably a safe bet that I don't know anything... about anything...
> 
> But you have two moderators rep you once for something clever you said, and look what you get?
> 
> I dont need to be walking around doing 98 points of damage, because my opinion really shouldn't be worth that much.


Why?  Do you think age and experience are the only things worth listening to?  I learn so much from my students - who range in age from 12 to 44, and in rank from white belt to black belt - should I not listen to them because they are younger than I am, or have less experience?  Does that make their opinion meaningless?

As has been said to you before, if you don't like the reputation system, turn your rep off and ignore it - that's your choice.  But don't put yourself down because of your perceived lack of meaningful experience - instead, think about how much more you've done than most others.  How many people your age have been training in MA for over 2 years?  Too many people put down their own abilities because someone else is better - but what good does that do?  Someone will _always_ be bigger, stronger, faster, higher ranked, whatever...   Instead of belittling yourself, own what you have done.


----------



## Ella

Kacey said:


> As has been said to you before, if you don't like the reputation system, turn your rep off and ignore it - that's your choice.




You have to pay to turn your rep off, and if more people don't like it than do, there should be a change. It's kind of unfair to have 10% of the people like it and 90% be told to ignore it. I'm not saying the numbers are 10/90, but we dont really know until we take the poll, do we?


----------



## Kreth

Ella said:


> You have to pay to turn your rep off, and if more people don't like it than do, there should be a change. It's kind of unfair to have 10% of the people like it and 90% be told to ignore it. I'm not saying the numbers are 10/90, but we dont really know until we take the poll, do we?


Well then, to be completely fair, we should weight the poll so that the points refelct how long someone has been on the forum, right?


----------



## Ella

Kacey said:


> should I not listen to them because they are younger than I am, or have less experience?  Does that make their opinion meaningless?


Not meaningless. But taken with a grain of salt. Communism is good in theory, right? But it never works in real life. If I've never experienced communism or learned about those who have, I might be convinced communism was the way to go. Because I lack the experience.

All I have on most things, is theory. But I don't know what I don't know...



Kacey said:


> But don't put yourself down because of your perceived lack of meaningful experience - instead, think about how much more you've done than most others.  How many people your age have been training in MA for over 2 years?  Too many people put down their own abilities because someone else is better - but what good does that do?  Someone will _always_ be bigger, stronger, faster, higher ranked, whatever...   Instead of belittling yourself, own what you have done.



My lack of experience isn't perceived. I'm young and I haven't done ****. That's just the way it is. I've never had to support myself, never had to live on my own, always had a safety net. I do own up to what I have done. I don't think I'm worthless or my opinions don't matter. I just try very hard to see things the way they are. At this point in my life I'm doing the learning, not the teaching.


----------



## Ella

Kreth said:


> Well then, to be completely fair, we should weight the poll so that the points refelct how long someone has been on the forum, right?



Hey, arnisador doesn't like it either, and he's been on the forum since the dawn of time. He'll average out my newbie-ness.


----------



## Kacey

Ella said:


> ...EVERYONE has fields of yellow.
> 
> I mean, come on. Look at me, for instance. I have less than 3 years of training in the martial arts, I'm less than 25 years old... I still live at home for godsakes.
> 
> It's probably a safe bet that I don't know anything... about anything...
> *
> But you have two moderators rep you once for something clever you said, and look what you get?*
> 
> I dont need to be walking around doing 96 points of damage, because my opinion really shouldn't be worth that much.



The thing you seem to be missing here, is that moderators don't have high rep because they're moderators - people with high rep are respected by many of the posters on MT, which is why they are asked to become members of the staff, as mentors or moderators.  High rep numbers don't come from being staff members - MT members (who are, by the way, all volunteers) are asked to serve as staff because of the opinions of others on the forum - and rep is one way that those opinions are expressed, but hardly the only way.



Ella said:


> You have to pay to turn your rep off, and if more people don't like it than do, there should be a change. It's kind of unfair to have 10% of the people like it and 90% be told to ignore it. I'm not saying the numbers are 10/90, but we dont really know until we take the poll, do we?



If you don't like it, and you can't turn it off, then ignore it.  Rep is intended to be fun, and to let people know whose opinions are appreciated - but IMHO, it's just not worth getting your knickers in a knot over it.


----------



## Ella

Kacey said:


> Moderators don't have high rep because they're moderators - people with high rep are respected by many of the posters on MT, which is why they are asked to become members of the staff, as mentors or moderators.  High rep numbers don't come from being staff members(...)



You dont think its a good possibility that moderators get more rep points, possibly from users hoping to make a good impression? Or, the flipside, they dont get negatively repped as much, because a member doesn't want to risk the "wrath" of a mod?


----------



## MJS

Folks,

We had a thread on rep that was recently closed.  This thread is starting to go down that same path.  Bob posted a poll.  Please feel free to click on your selection.  If you have another idea that you'd like to share, then feel free to do so.  If its going to turn into what the other thread did, that is not going to get us anywhere.  We're here to come up with a solution, not argue back and forth.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The rep system's been in effect here since vBulletin made it a standard part of the software something like 5 years or so ago.   We've also added a non-standard addon to extend the display a bit.

It's currently setup as follows:
Default Reputation: 10
Reputation Undefined: is off the scale
Number of Reputation Ratings to Display: 15
Number of Reputation Given comments to display: 10
Administrator's Reputation Power: follow the same rules as everyone else.


Register Date Factor: 365
For every X number of days, users gain  point of reputation-altering power.

Post Count Factor: 1,000
For every X number of posts, users gain  point of reputation-altering power.

Reputation Point Factor: 100
For every X points of reputation, users gain  point of reputation-altering power.

Minimum Post Count: 50
How many posts must a user have before his reputation hits count on others?

Minimum Reputation Count: 10
How much reputation must a user have before his reputation hits count on others?

Daily Reputation Clicks Limit: 10
How many reputation clicks can a user give over each 24 hour period? Administrators are exempt from this limit.

Reputation User Spread: 10
How many different users must you give reputation to before you can hit the same person again? Administrators are exempt from this limit.


Extended Reputation Enabled

Extended Reputation Newline- yes
Seperate the high value stars and the standard pips with a line break.

Extended Reputation Dark Green Count: 5
The maximum number of dark green pips to display before moving onto the next level.

Extended Reputation Dark Green Value: 150
The value of each dark green pip in the extended reputation display.

Extended Reputation Light Green Count: 5
The maximum number of light green pips to display before moving onto the next level.

Extended Reputation Light Green Value: 250
The value of each light green pip in the extended reputation display.

Extended Reputation Golden Count: 10
The maximum number of golden pips to display before moving onto the next level.

Extended Reputation Gold Value: 800
The value of each golden pip in the extended reputation display.

Reputation Delete Time (Seconds): 300
Time Limit in which users can delete their own reputation comments, set to zero to disable.


----------



## Kacey

Ella said:


> You dont think its a good possibility that moderators get more rep points, possibly from users hoping to make a good impression? Or, the flipside, they dont get negatively repped as much, because a member doesn't want to risk the "wrath" of a mod?



No, I don't.  You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion - but if your surmise was the truth, then Bob Hubbard - who owns and operates this forum - would have considerably more rep than anyone else, as would the admins and super mods, who are farther up the chain than the mods and senior mods... and they don't, no matter how much they may deserve it (and they do deserve it), because they spend more time maintaining the board than posting on it.


----------



## terryl965

OK here goes my view on all this ****:

1) The rep. system is not perfect and is no way ever going to be perfect so why would we change something that somewhere down the line somebody else will not like and then we are at this again. If you do not wish to play the GAME and I mean GAME then disable your system and leave well enough alone.

2) AGE has nothing to do with knowledge, I know some 13 years old that have been training for 10 years and can explain the proper way of kicking better that some instructor that have been teaching for thirty years and we all know them.

3) This is the most inportant statement of them all and here come the negative reps to me and I welcome all of them. quit whinning and crying and bitching about a system that some of us have been involved with for a long time, I get rep. mainly for my comments even though my spelling sucks and I rarely use spell check, my point get across. Those that I rep deserve what I can give and alot more. For all you newbies that have this hang-up to bad to sad, disable your system and continue to post like normal if the star hurt your eyes then always look to the left where there are none and it will not brother you.


I FOR ONE WANT WHAT I HAVE EARNED FROM MY FELLOW MARTIAL ARTIST AND FRIENDS AND ENEMIES HERE ON MT. I TAKE THE BAD WITH THE GOOD AND GO ON WITH MY LIFE AND SO SHOULD EVERYBODY ELSE HERE.


If you are upset over what I said grow up and be an adult about life. Things happen everyday that just piss us off, but we manage to keep going so keep going here.

Bob I want mine to stay the same if you change it PLEASE KEEP MINE I earned it and want it.

Terry Stoker
The one that can look pass a rep system and continue with my day.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Ella said:


> You dont think its a good possibility that moderators get more rep points, possibly from users hoping to make a good impression? Or, the flipside, they dont get negatively repped as much, because a member doesn't want to risk the "wrath" of a mod?


Ella,
  You're basically saying that the moderators are abusing their power. Every check I've made recently says this isn't so.  We've had few cases of that happening over the years, and when it's happened, it's been reversed and their rep abilities restricted or even removed.

One other important point - staff aren't allowed to turn their rep displays off.  Supporting members can, but staff aren't allowed.

Whenever someone says "someones abusing the system" I review it.  I look not only at what you got, but at what each person who recently repped you has done/received.  Patterns of abuse are actually easy to spot when you know what you are looking at.  I've often found that the person screaming abuse has been hurling it themselves but no one had yet complained. Or that someone's been sending love notes. In 1 old case, some rather inappropriate comments were being directed at several of our female members by a now former member.  But, it's an unmoderated system. Unless someone says "please check my rep out I think theres a problem" we really don't sit here and read through it.

For kicks, I just did though, read through the 40 assorted comments made on the 15th.  22 People left 40 reps for 36 people. 6 Negative, 1 zero, 33 Positive.  4 had no notes, 31 were signed, 9 weren't.  Only 2 could be construed as rude, but were minor and I don't feel like nitpicking.  Based on past 1 day looks, it's a pretty typical snapshot.

Highest rep hit was 928, lowest was 20.

Now, were there vitally important nugget of wisdom in there that folks would die without? Nope.  Most fell into the "good post/bad post" type....all the 'attaboy' fluff we don't want clogging up our "meat" posts, since some folks want all meat and can't stand that warm-human-contact stuff.  Damn stuffy geeks, need to get out more and kiss a few girls in my opinion, but I digress.


Now, the system is broke, because it is un balanced.  A newb comes in, can't kill a fly.  Me, I move mountains.  But, is it fair to penalize me since I've been here 8 years and have put in the time?  Most of the folks with high rep here, have been here a hell of a long time, and are very active posters. Why should we handcuff them, or strip them of "rank" just to even the playing field?

I've seen people come in here, and in a short time, get those stars, because they contribute thought provoking commentary, follow the site rules and help others who are struggling with them, and go above and beyond to help others out.

On the other hand, I've seen absolute losers come in here, try to wave some rank around and let us know how real important they are and how much we all suck, get neg repped into the ground.  

The system works the way it's meant to....it just doesn't have a "top level" so folks keep going up.  Maybe all it needs is a cap at X on power.


On the other hand, yeah I have seen folks beg for rep, or offer it. I've seen folks offer it to people who sign up to support this site with a supporting membership or a gold-key membership. I don't participate in that, but can't fault them for adding a bit of a thank you to those folks who do help keep us running.


Bottom line - might need a few tweaks to correct some imbalances, report abuse and it will be looked into, abuse the system and you lose points and privileges.

Back to the voting.


----------



## terryl965

Sorry I have to add one more thing to the powers to be:

What is next take away post counts that have nothing to do with Martial Arts. I'm sorry I'am pissed about this, if you cannot tell. *My god, my son Caleb who is ten just said to me why does this matter so much daddy, if it brothers people, did you not tell me that we cannot make everybody happy all the time but try to see the best in everyone and everything.* Now if he can see pass this so can we.

Like I said sorry this crap is just so uncalled for in my humble but honest opinion.


----------



## Sapper6

Ella said:


> ...EVERYONE has fields of yellow.
> 
> I mean, come on. Look at me, for instance. I have less than 3 years of training in the martial arts, I'm less than 25 years old... I still live at home for godsakes.
> 
> It's probably a safe bet that I don't know anything... about anything...
> 
> But you have two moderators rep you once for something clever you said, and look what you get?
> 
> I dont need to be walking around doing 96 points of damage, because my opinion really shouldn't be worth that much.


 
sounds like you have a confidence issue...

no really, why get bent over something so minute?  

you've been a member for only a few months and look at your rep.  geez, if i knew all i had to do is gripe about the rep system to get rep points, i would have done that a long time ago. 

in all seriousness, the people here with high reputation deserve it.  there's no need for jealousy.  there's plenty other things that bring folks to MartialTalk.  i don't think anyone is here 'cause the reputation flows like milk and honey.  i'm here for the penguin bashing game in the arcade...and maybe a little martial arts reading in between games.  

cheers,


----------



## Bob Hubbard

"What is next take away post counts that have nothing to do with Martial Arts."

We used to not count posts in certain forums for that reason.  I decided, give em all credit, a post is a post.  

In the end, your rank, rep/karma, or post count on a message board isn't worth anything elsewhere.  You can't take your MT rank over to MAP and exchange it for MAP rank, and your rep here may be the opposite of what it is elsewhere. 

I keep score based on how many supporting members we have, how many gold key club members we have, how many sponsors we have. That's money, and that's transferable.  I keep score by looking at our web stats and seeing how many tens of thousands of people visit us each month, how many gigs of data and how many thousands of pages we serve each month.  That's bragging rights. LOL.  

But rep, rank, postcount?  Naw.   I can spend all say exchanging 1 liners in the last person thread and earn those.  Doesn't translate to anything tangible other than I hung out with my friends. I can spend all day arguing inthe study. Doesn't translate to anything other than I'm a master debater.  But I can post 1 solid make-you-think-hard topic under any art heading, step back and watch the countless talented people we have here take my seed and turn it into an incredible discussion and debate, and earn the satisfaction of knowing folk find the site useful and fufilling. To me, that's worth more than even money.


I run polls like this on occation to see where folks thoughts are. It helps me to decide where we need to go and what we need to consider. The poll right now seems to lean towards staying the same as we are. That may change. I dunno. But, it's all good and it's all food for thought.


----------



## grydth

Got to disagree on some of your points, Terry.

If I have an issue with you, or anyone else, the proper ways to handle it are via a PM or a public post here. Allowing cowards and sneaks to post anonymous digs via negative reps, then sneak off giggling .... that serves nobody nor does it serve the Forum.

I have never given negative rep and i won't do it to you. I prefer to handle things straight up, lookin' at ya. I would guess that's the type person you and most others here are. The real nay sayers aren't on this thread, they are of the same ilk as those who key your car door in the night.

To say no changes should be made because perfection will never be attained... well, that notion would frustrate *most* human endeavors.

I disagree that the nay sayers are not adults or are whiners. Bob Hubbard posted a poll and we, like you, voted and gave our reasons. I can take being called a child, but too many disputes in this country that should be reasoned out and worked out are ending with "the other side must be..."

Sometimes one's true friends are the ones who disagree with you. That's one way we learn. I have somebody at work I value highly, because she is loyal enough and dedicated enough to tell me when I'm full of **. 

Just my 82c.


----------



## bluemtn

My problem is (not directly with rep.), that I'm seeing both sides of the "argument".  My view is, it's a pretty cool thing to have, and it shouldn't be about popularity, and I don't think it is in most cases.  I give reputation for several reasons, too.

I can live with or without them, honestly.


----------



## Ella

Bob Hubbard said:


> Ella,
> You're basically saying that the moderators are abusing their power.




Not what I meant.

When I say someone may not want to negatively rep a mod or admin, for fear of wrath, I don't mean that they (the admin or mod) would actually do anything.

Say I disagree with a post you have written, negative rep you, and reply to your post. Then you negatively rep me back. I've made your rep points go down by 90 and you've put me in the red.

Whether or not you actually DO it isn't my point. being able to single-handedly put someone in the red isn't a good thing. It would make me think twice about disagreeing with a moderator or admin.

For that matter, an average user such as myself could put a newbie in the red if they made one off color remark.


----------



## MJS

Ella said:


> Not what I meant.
> 
> When I say someone may not want to negatively rep a mod or admin, for fear of wrath, I don't mean that they (the admin or mod) would actually do anything.
> 
> Say I disagree with a post you have written, negative rep you, and reply to your post. Then you negatively rep me back. I've made your rep points go down by 90 and you've put me in the red.
> 
> Whether or not you actually DO it isn't my point. being able to single-handedly put someone in the red isn't a good thing. It would make me think twice about disagreeing with a moderator or admin.
> 
> For that matter, an average user such as myself could put a newbie in the red if they made one off color remark.


 
Isn't your last paragraph a bit contradictory?  You're talking about forum staff being able to put someone into the red with one hit, but you yourself just said that you could do the same thing to a new member.  

Ella,  you seem a bit bent on this rep issue.  We (the Steering Board) are currently working on solutions.  Rather than continue to argue, let it rest, cast your vote if you haven't and wait it out to see what happens.  Going back and forth isn't helping the cause or giving a solution.


----------



## terryl965

grydth said:


> Got to disagree on some of your points, Terry.
> 
> If I have an issue with you, or anyone else, the proper ways to handle it are via a PM or a public post here. Allowing cowards and sneaks to post anonymous digs via negative reps, then sneak off giggling .... that serves nobody nor does it serve the Forum.
> 
> I have never given negative rep and i won't do it to you. I prefer to handle things straight up, lookin' at ya. I would guess that's the type person you and most others here are. The real nay sayers aren't on this thread, they are of the same ilk as those who key your car door in the night.
> 
> To say no changes should be made because perfection will never be attained... well, that notion would frustrate *most* human endeavors.
> 
> I disagree that the nay sayers are not adults or are whiners. Bob Hubbard posted a poll and we, like you, voted and gave our reasons. I can take being called a child, but too many disputes in this country that should be reasoned out and worked out are ending with "the other side must be..."
> 
> Sometimes one's true friends are the ones who disagree with you. That's one way we learn. I have somebody at work I value highly, because she is loyal enough and dedicated enough to tell me when I'm full of **.
> 
> Just my 82c.


 

Man .82 cents that is alot of cents for one post, but in all serioness here we all have our opinions and yes it should be counted and I appreciate you for being so forward and I guess you towards me. I like the system the good the bad the ugly, it is all good. I just had to say what was on my mind. I'm also glad not everyone agree's with me if everybody did what fun would this world be.


----------



## Sukerkin

I have to say that I haven't often seen signs of negative repping.  

All I can report having observed is a really obnoxious member a while ago who thoroughly deserved getting lambasted with negative rep, or a recent occaision of a couple of relative newcomers to the board tearing into each other before noticing that that's not how we do things around here.

Maybe I have rose-tinted glasses on but I perceive the rep system, as I've stated before, as both a way of affirming someones point of view without a needless "Me too!" post and also as a positive reinforcement tool.  So if someone makes a good point on some topic, I'll quite happily put together a short comment in a rep-buff to let them know how well received their words were.

I've never used negative rep and I plan on never having to.  If someone makes a statement I disagree with then I may try to reason the point through with them but, if it's clear that an accomodation cannot be reached then I'll just leave well alone - if the poster is becoming aggressive, abusive or otherwise carrying on cranky then I may hit the RTM button or bring it up in the Lounge but I wont fuel the fire by arguing without purpose.

I believe the rep system to be a wonderful addition to the site and I'm hedonist enough for my self-image to revel in it if I get a rep buff from someone here I really respect - OMG, its the internet equivalent of being flirted with by a pretty girl :lol:.

To re-iterate my practical statement from before, I think that there's nothing particularly wrong with the system as is other than the escalation of rep-power (because I think that inhibits the most valued members from using the system).


----------



## Ella

MJS said:


> Isn't your last paragraph a bit contradictory?  You're talking about forum staff being able to put someone into the red with one hit, but you yourself just said that you could do the same thing to a new member.
> 
> Ella,  you seem a bit bent on this rep issue.  We (the Steering Board) are currently working on solutions.  Rather than continue to argue, let it rest, cast your vote if you haven't and wait it out to see what happens.  Going back and forth isn't helping the cause or giving a solution.



I would be happy to - I planned on not responding after your earlier post. But when someone quotes me and asks a question, should I ignore it?

Yes, I said that I myself could to that to a new member. I don't think either one of those situations is okay.

I promise not to post again if no one asks me another question.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Ella said:


> I would be happy to - I planned on not responding after your earlier post. But when someone quotes me and asks a question, should I ignore it?
> 
> Yes, I said that I myself could to that to a new member. I don't think either one of those situations is okay.
> 
> I promise not to post again if no one asks me another question.


 
Ella *if* you are a *supporting member* and the reputation system is bothering you alot you can always opt out by disabling your reputation.  So there is a way to effectively remove yourself from the reputation system if you so choose.  Besides being a supporting member on the best board on the internet is great!


----------



## terryl965

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Ella *if* you are a *supporting member* and the reputation system is bothering you alot you can always opt out by disabling your reputation. So there is a way to effectively remove yourself from the reputation system if you so choose. Besides being a supporting member on the best board on the internet is great!


 

Very well said Brian this is the best board on the net.


----------



## Ella

Broke College student.

(is there some other kind?)


----------



## MJS

Ella said:


> I would be happy to - I planned on not responding after your earlier post. But when someone quotes me and asks a question, should I ignore it?
> 
> Yes, I said that I myself could to that to a new member. I don't think either one of those situations is okay.
> 
> I promise not to post again if no one asks me another question.


 
Well, replying to a post is up to you.  Here is the difference:  If you feel that the person is baiting you and you don't feel like replying, then yes, don't reply.  If you feel that you're going to offer something constructive to the thread then go ahead and reply.  The point of my post, and it was directed to not just you, but everyone, was arguing is not helping to come up with a solution to the rep issue.


----------



## terryl965

Ella said:


> Broke College student.
> 
> (is there some other kind?)


 
Man it is the year 2007 and still college students are broke it was that way when I was in college in the seventies.


----------



## Drac

Sukerkin said:


> I have to say that I haven't often seen signs of negative repping


 
Nor have I, and I've been here awhile



			
				Sukerkin said:
			
		

> All I can report having observed is a really obnoxious member a while ago who thoroughly deserved getting lambasted with negative rep, or a recent occaision of a couple of relative newcomers to the board tearing into each other before noticing that that's not how we do things around here.


 
Same here...I've been negative repped a few times as a Newbie, and I deserved them and I wasn't repped out of exsistence..



			
				Sukerkin said:
			
		

> Maybe I have rose-tinted glasses on but I perceive the rep system, as I've stated before, as both a way of affirming someones point of view without a needless "Me too!" post and also as a positive reinforcement tool. So if someone makes a good point on some topic, I'll quite happily put together a short comment in a rep-buff to let them know how well received their words were.


 
Those with the abundance of gold reps and STARS earned them by INTELLEGENT, THOUGHT PROVOKING posts..




			
				Sukerkin said:
			
		

> I've never used negative rep and I plan on never having to. If someone makes a statement I disagree with then I may try to reason the point through with them but, if it's clear that an accomodation cannot be reached then I'll just leave well alone - if the poster is becoming aggressive, abusive or otherwise carrying on cranky then I may hit the RTM button or bring it up in the Lounge but I wont fuel the fire by arguing without purpose..
> I believe the rep system to be a wonderful addition to the site and I'm hedonist enough for my self-image to revel in it if I get a rep buff from someone here I really respect - OMG, its the internet equivalent of being flirted with by a pretty girl :lol:.
> 
> To re-iterate my practical statement from before, I think that there's nothing particularly wrong with the system as is other than the escalation of rep-power (because I think that inhibits the most valued members from using the system).


 
A* MOST* intellegent post...Bravo!!!!


----------



## Bob Hubbard

terryl965 said:


> Man it is the year 2007 and still college students are broke it was that way when I was in college in the seventies.


You'd think, after all this time someone woulda fixed em all.  They were broke when I went through there too.  Damn country, getting so run down even the high schoolers are broke now.  What are we gonna do when our preschoolers start to break down? We're doomed!  Doomed I tell you!

If anyone needs me, I'll be over in the bar yelling about the slow speed on the pretzel restock. 



Oh, and try the fish.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Welcome to life.  65 pound no skill snot nose kid can lay out a 250lb solid rock ab pro fighter.  All they need is Mr. Winchesters most excellent negotiating tool. This rep thing wasn't here when I originally started. I probably woulder been in the red from day one.  Who the fudge cares? I sure don't.  Fix it, change it, remove it, hell, paint it purple and call it Lucy. I dun car.

But to whine "I might piss off a mod and they'll retaliate", pshaw.  Piss em off, piss on em, buy em dinner and a movie, who cares?  If I worried about kissing every butt and making sure that everyone luved me, I wouldn't have time to do jack. or jill.  Jills cuter by the way, whoo hoo!

Read the rules, speak your mind with in them, take your lumps like any other real adult when you go to far (which will happen), and move on.  I have read a bunch of things here from folks that I though was nutz. "Needed Killin" is a fitting term sometimes, and legally admissable I might add. I'm sure they've been spanked a few times, told off a mod or three, and oh lookee, they got green and dark green and yellow and little gold stars too.  No purple clovers, but that might require the bonerspack or sumthin.  Anyway, go cast a vote if you want.  Mines not listed "I dunt car".  Ding me, Dang me, might as well take a rope and hang me!

Whoooooo!




VI



Ella said:


> Not what I meant.
> 
> When I say someone may not want to negatively rep a mod or admin, for fear of wrath, I don't mean that they (the admin or mod) would actually do anything.
> 
> Say I disagree with a post you have written, negative rep you, and reply to your post. Then you negatively rep me back. I've made your rep points go down by 90 and you've put me in the red.
> 
> Whether or not you actually DO it isn't my point. being able to single-handedly put someone in the red isn't a good thing. It would make me think twice about disagreeing with a moderator or admin.
> 
> For that matter, an average user such as myself could put a newbie in the red if they made one off color remark.


----------



## Drac

The Last Legionary said:


> Ding me, Dang me, might as well take a rope and hang me!


 
High up from the highest tree. MT would you weep for me..Doot ,doot , doot ,do, do, doota, do...


----------



## arnisador

Ella said:


> But you have two moderators rep you once for something clever you said, and look what you get?



I'm not sure that real-life experience should count so much--the board is for all--but my experience has been that "cute" comments are more likely to get me rep. than meaty posts.



CoryKS said:


> I'm still enough of a karma whore that I'll spend an extra moment or two to soften a strongly-worded opinion to avoid the ding.  There are some who have chosen to disable reps in order to speak more freely, and from what I've seen it would be an ugly thing indeed if the system was done away with altogether.



Hmmmm...to the extent that people are being civil in exchange for rep., that's good; but softening strongly-worded opinions can also lead to a dull board full of "Me too" posts. This is not a clear positive to my mind.



Kacey said:


> As has been said to you before, if you don't like the reputation system, turn your rep off and ignore it
> [*]



*For a modest fee.

*Kacey*'s comments about not devaluing one's input are on-target. The board needs people at a range of experience in order to thrive, and those with less experience offer a fresh view and are more likely to start conversations. They can also be encouraging and positive to others (though whether that activity should gather rep. goes to whether rep. should reflect martial arts ability or how much one is "liked" by other posters).


----------



## Carol

arnisador said:


> I'm not sure that real-life experience should count so much--the board is for all--but my experience has been that "cute" comments are more likely to get me rep. than meaty posts.



Meaty posts? Are you still talking about food, Arni?


----------



## Drac

Carol Kaur said:


> Meaty posts? Are you still talking about food, Arni?


 

Isn't he always..LOL....


----------



## arnisador

Kacey said:


> it's just not worth getting your knickers in a knot over it.



People keep saying this (e.g., *shesulsa*'s linked post). It's a form of ad hominem argument: You disagree with me because of your irrationally strong response to a trivial issue; you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Yet no one here has threatened to leave or actually left over this matter; no one is _demanding _that changes be made; no one is accusing the administrators of acting in bad faith. Indeed, Ella's original post asked *people have 26 stars... are there any plans to reset it, fix it, SOMETHING?* which is a sentiment many posters here have echoed. It would be reasonable to interpret this question at face value, as a recognition of the fact that the current system is clearly incapable of continuing as is and asking about changes, rather than either a sign of disloyalty or a hysterical response to a minor issue.

Still, it's a useful rhetorical tactic to accuse one's opponents in a debate of being driven by emotion.



terryl965 said:


> 3) This is the most inportant statement of them all and here come the negative reps to me and I welcome all of them. quit whinning and crying and bitching about a system that some of us have been involved with for a long time,
> [...]
> Terry Stoker
> The one that can look pass a rep system and continue with my day.



Are you implying that I cannot look past it and continue with my day?


----------



## arnisador

terryl965 said:


> Man it is the year 2007 and still college students are broke it was that way when I was in college in the seventies.





Bob Hubbard said:


> You'd think, after all this time someone woulda fixed em all.  They were broke when I went through there too.  Damn country, getting so run down even the high schoolers are broke now.  What are we gonna do when our preschoolers start to break down? We're doomed!  Doomed I tell you!
> 
> If anyone needs me, I'll be over in the bar yelling about the slow speed on the pretzel restock.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and try the fish.





Drac said:


> High up from the highest tree. MT would you weep for me..Doot ,doot , doot ,do, do, doota, do...





Carol Kaur said:


> Meaty posts? Are you still talking about food, Arni?





Drac said:


> Isn't he always..LOL....




For a minute there I was afraid this thread might stay on topic! Thank heavens for high-rep mods and admins who can keep us off-course.

I'm the last person to post on this thread!


----------



## arnisador

Double post due to a pair of errors like this:

vBulletin datastore error caused by one or more of the following:

   1. You may have uploaded vBulletin 3.6 files without also running the vBulletin upgrade script. If you have not run the upgrade script, do so now.
   2. The datastore cache may have been corrupted. Run Rebuild Bitfields from tools.php, which you can upload from the do_not_upload folder of the vBulletin package.


Fatal error: vBulletin datastore cache incomplete or corrupt in /includes/init.php on line 213


----------



## terryl965

arnisador said:


> For a minute there I was afraid this thread might stay on topic! Thank heavens for high-rep mods and admins who can keep us off-course.
> 
> I'm the last person to post on this thread!


 
Not anymore, I'm the king of this mountain


----------



## Bob Hubbard

arnisador said:


> For a minute there I was afraid this thread might stay on topic! Thank heavens for high-rep mods and admins who can keep us off-course.
> 
> I'm the last person to post on this thread!


It's called a joke Arn.  It's used to diffuse tension, and relax a situation.
Use of jokes and humor is covered in section b, paragraph h, subsection theta in the moderator manual, version 45.6.7-b.  Your copy was sent to you for use at FMAT, check under the stick bags in the corner, unless Tim's Dogs ate it.


Now, back to topic since being a tenth of a degree off it makes Arni break out in hives (you sure you ain't a closet kenpoist dude?), lets go back to discussing the rep system here. Why its great, why it sucks, why it works, why its all borked, and why it is the thing most likely responsible to the fall of the Roman Empire.  

Or, we can discuss what works, doesn't work, and what actual fixes could be done to improve it.

Or, we can just whine about how it's unfair, and the secret cabel of moderators who spend all day looking for people to screw and abuse.



In case it's not obvious, 5 years of people bitching about this (the same ones I might add usually) are getting tiring.


----------



## grydth

Ella said:


> I would be happy to - I planned on not responding after your earlier post. But when someone quotes me and asks a question, should I ignore it?
> 
> Yes, I said that I myself could to that to a new member. I don't think either one of those situations is okay.
> 
> I promise not to post again if no one asks me another question.



Consider some advice from a professional troublemaker twice your age:

You're going to lose on this one..... or, then again, are you? 

On the vote, it will be a major loss. Maybe it should be - this actually, on the whole, is a pretty decent and honest collection of folks. 

But you stirred this whole issue up - and that's a win for you. Institutions need troublemakers, somebody who'll break a little glass and question sacred practices. 

Mad as some people may get at you, you made them think and express why this part of the system is so important to them. A lot of folks now know just how important, how valued their praise for others is. Everyone wins when they look at themselves closely, and can then say," Yeah, this is what I do... and here's why... and I'm proud of it."

Don't ever leave a fight with a plaintive promise not to post anymore. You are better than that - and so are your opponents here. Leave when you're done shooting, not before. If that angers people, well sometimes they need to be riled. And if after you are done, you realize the other guys are right - then post _that_ and thank them for educating you. That'll bring you what the Gold Stars stand for - respect.


----------



## MJS

arnisador said:


> For a minute there I was afraid this thread might stay on topic! Thank heavens for high-rep mods and admins who can keep us off-course.
> 
> I'm the last person to post on this thread!


 
Actually, this thread went off the road a loooong time ago, hense the reason for my post, which apparently went ignored.  Once again, its really simple..click a choice.  If someone feels the need to comment, then do so.  But to moan on and on...what is that doing to solve the problem? Nothing!


----------



## Sapper6

Sukerkin said:


> I have to say that I haven't often seen signs of negative repping.
> 
> All I can report having observed is a really obnoxious member a while ago who thoroughly deserved getting lambasted with negative rep, or a recent occaision of a couple of relative newcomers to the board tearing into each other before noticing that that's not how we do things around here.
> 
> Maybe I have rose-tinted glasses on but I perceive the rep system, as I've stated before, as both a way of affirming someones point of view without a needless "Me too!" post and also as a positive reinforcement tool. So if someone makes a good point on some topic, I'll quite happily put together a short comment in a rep-buff to let them know how well received their words were.
> 
> I've never used negative rep and I plan on never having to. If someone makes a statement I disagree with then I may try to reason the point through with them but, if it's clear that an accomodation cannot be reached then I'll just leave well alone - if the poster is becoming aggressive, abusive or otherwise carrying on cranky then I may hit the RTM button or bring it up in the Lounge but I wont fuel the fire by arguing without purpose.
> 
> I believe the rep system to be a wonderful addition to the site and I'm hedonist enough for my self-image to revel in it if I get a rep buff from someone here I really respect - OMG, its the internet equivalent of being flirted with by a pretty girl :lol:.
> 
> To re-iterate my practical statement from before, I think that there's nothing particularly wrong with the system as is other than the escalation of rep-power (because I think that inhibits the most valued members from using the system).


 
who the hell are you and where did you find such intelligent rationale? 

very nice.


----------



## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:


> back to topic since being a tenth of a degree off it makes Arni break out in hives



Me? Nonsense; this is just another ad hominem attack. What would happen if _I_ started characterizing _you _in such derisive tones here? In any event, I simply don't understand the rule. Last month I received an infraction for "Off Topic Post" (_You have been issued a warning IC for off topic posting in the thread. If you have any questions please feel free to contact any member of the senior moderating staff._). Now you say that half a dozen off-topic posts are OK since the effect is humourous and helpful. Is your point that it's OK if it's funny?



> Or, we can discuss what works, doesn't work, and what actual fixes could be done to improve it.
> 
> Or, we can just whine about how it's unfair, and the secret cabel of moderators who spend all day looking for people to screw and abuse.


I was trying to do the former, and haven't engaged in the latter.



> In case it's not obvious, 5 years of people bitching about this (the same ones I might add usually) are getting tiring.


I think you're reading venom into many posts that the posters think are simply discussions of which features here they do and do not like. (I grant that some posts on both sides are over-the-top.) If you don't want to read discussions, maybe posting on Internet fora is not for you. But for an argument to occur, someone must take up an opposing side (ref.: Monty Python, _The Argument Clinic_).


----------



## Drac

*Jeezas..*Yeah I cracked a joke and went off topic..So to any SuperMods or Higher *FEEL FREE* to send me warning IC and Issue me an Infraction for said offense..I won't whine or cry....


----------



## Carol

Enough, everyone, please.


Y'all know the drill.

If there is an issue with a post, hit the RTM button.

If you have a concern about any of the moderators, including me, PM Bob Hubbard.


Chill out, and lets keep the fighting on the mats, mmmkay?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

arnisador said:


> Me? Nonsense; this is just another ad hominem attack. What would happen if _I_ started characterizing _you _in such derisive tones here? In any event, I simply don't understand the rule. Last month I received an infraction for "Off Topic Post" (_You have been issued a warning IC for off topic posting in the thread. If you have any questions please feel free to contact any member of the senior moderating staff._). Now you say that half a dozen off-topic posts are OK since the effect is humourous and helpful. Is your point that it's OK if it's funny?


Well, posting judopoopypants stuff right after a mod warning to get back on topic in a discussion on a book about swords in a forum we're trying to encourage more serious discussion in (since some folks have been complaining about a perceived lack of such for a while) probably deserved an actual IC, but hey who am I to say?  But that also is going far off the topic here isn't it?

So Jeff, since you have made repeated comments and complaints concerning the rep system here, and the formula is posted a few back, what would you change to fix it?  Seriously.  No, scrapping it is not what most folks here want. So, what should we do to fix it?


----------



## shesulsa

Ella said:


> You dont think its a good possibility that moderators get more rep points, possibly from users hoping to make a good impression? Or, the flipside, they dont get negatively repped as much, because a member doesn't want to risk the "wrath" of a mod?


People who fear the "wrath" of a mod either have something to hide, are consciously aware they do not post near to the quality of other posters ... that or they're just plain shy.


			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> People keep saying this (e.g., *shesulsa*'s linked post). It's a form of ad hominem argument: You disagree with me because of your irrationally strong response to a trivial issue; you're making a mountain out of a molehill.


If I say "why put so much into something that matters very little" and it's called an ad hominem by a founding member with less rep and a higher quantity of "meaty" posts ... that does little to devalue my statement.  Are you, in fact, putting more value in the reputation system than there really is?  Is that why you once told me you were going for my top spot (when I was there)?  Haven't we *done this already?*

You can use a screwdriver to pound a nail into a wall but it's not very effective ... using a tool the way its intended and only using it when it's intended and to suit your purpose ... that makes the tool yours. 

There are more important causes to champion, methinks ... like how are we going to get past the nasty politics of Kenpo, Judo, Arnis and HRD to spread these wonderful arts and keep them going? What is the legacy we are leaving our children if we're fighting over popularity?  When was the last time you let an orange belt come into your school and tell you how to run it?

Please, people.


----------



## MBuzzy

Although this may be oversimplifying things....seems to me that it is easy to solve.  

Put a limit on the amount of stars you can get.  Put a limit on the amount of rep altering power you can have.  Put a limit on the numerical amount of rep that you can get (but still get comments and such, they just wouldn't alter your rep #).

No scrapping, no resetting....just inserting a ceiling.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

ok.

Now that is something we've been considering. We're trying to decide what to do with the folks who are past whatever cutoff point we establish.  Obviously, they lose power, but is that fair?  etc.

Just food for thought.


----------



## MJS

MBuzzy said:


> Although this may be oversimplifying things....seems to me that it is easy to solve.
> 
> Put a limit on the amount of stars you can get. Put a limit on the amount of rep altering power you can have. Put a limit on the numerical amount of rep that you can get (but still get comments and such, they just wouldn't alter your rep #).
> 
> No scrapping, no resetting....just inserting a ceiling.


 
Probably one of the best suggestions I've seen so far!!


----------



## MJS

Bob Hubbard said:


> ok.
> 
> Now that is something we've been considering. We're trying to decide what to do with the folks who are past whatever cutoff point we establish. Obviously, they lose power, but is that fair? etc.
> 
> Just food for thought.


 
Take the person who is the highest at the time of the change, and set it for that.  That person will be the first to reach that goal obviously, and it'll still give everyone else a chance to catch up.


----------



## MBuzzy

Bob Hubbard said:


> ok.
> 
> Now that is something we've been considering. We're trying to decide what to do with the folks who are past whatever cutoff point we establish. Obviously, they lose power, but is that fair? etc.
> 
> Just food for thought.


 
I have a great deal of respect for those who have the very high reps.  I feel that they have all earned them.  Though the occassional rep gets given for signing up for something or "cute posts."  Those get averaged out in the end, especially for those with constellations.

With that said, if I was the one that had the highest rep altering power or the highest number....I wouldn't care if you took away some to get me down to the cap.  I can't speak for everyone, but people here are very understanding.  


Especially if it is in the interest of settling this and solving the problem.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

The high point now is I think about 900 points.


----------



## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:


> what would you change to fix it?  Seriously.  No, scrapping it is not what most folks here want. So, what should we do to fix it?



Ah, a math. question! Excellent. Personally, I favor the suggestion to keep the comments but without keeping score. A thumbs up/thumbs down symbol to clearly indicate how the comment is meant, similar to what you've described on *KenpoTalk*, could be useful. I would keep the anonymity option.

As to what would make most people happy, of course no one can say with certainty (and I might add that the 50 votes thus far don't seem likely to be representative of '_most_' people on a site of this size), but I think a reasonable fix of the current system that honors what has been posted here and in related discussions on this site might run as follows. First, reset the system. Not everyone will like this, but the current numbers are too far out-of-whack to be salvageable. Then:

*1.* Every user, save possibly the very newest (say, number of posts less than 10), gets 1 point of rep.-changing power per use, with up to 10 uses per day, with a spread-it-around rule allowing no one to rep. the same person more than once per calendar day (or similar time period).
*2.* Rep. may be positive or negative but is _not _anonymous. If a neutral option can be implemented--allowing a person to make a comment but choose not to alter rep.--that would be desirable.
*3.* Rep. may be given for whatever reason a person desires.
*4.* Inappropriate comments will be deleted along with their quantitative effect.
*5*. At every power of 10, a new rep. title is displayed.

This addresses concerns of mismatched repping power, ceilings, anonymity, oversized displays, and, if a zero rep. change option can be implemented, the ability to never give negative rep. but still make a comment. It eliminates the conflict with the rule that states that rep. should only be given for a good post, not just to friends. It retains the IM-like nature of the feature, the fun of helping build up the stature of someone one admires, the ability to encourage new users, the ability to me-too in a friendly but non-distracting way, and a display that guides new users to respected posters.

For the displays, I imagine a small banner placed under the name/title or anywhere else that is prominent that begins at a rep. of 1, changes at 10, then at 100, then at 1000, and so on. People will quickly tire of using 1-point increments to go from 1,000 to 10,000, but will easily be able to get those they respect to the 10 and 100 point levels. Clearly, 100,000 rep. points is a goal unlikely to be reached. Hence, I would imagine titles like:

1: New MartialTalk Poster
10: Notable MartialTalk Poster
100: Senior MartialTalk Poster
1000: Distinguished MartialTalk Poster

 For zero rep., display nothing; that first rep. will be a nice bit of encouragement as a new If these levels are too few, I understand that it's easy to add extra ones.banner pops up. For neg. rep., display nothing. If you have nothing good to say about someone, why say anything at all? A stigmatizing banner is not consistent with a friendly site.

As for staff participation, it seems clear that this is a sensitive subject for the staff. _Subject to the same limitations_, staff should be allowed to participate.

Enough to make it worthwhile to participate in the system, but an exponentially increasing goal that imposes effective limits...the same basic idea as the exponential back-off approach to controlling junk e-mail.

Well, now you know both what I personally prefer and what I am sensing coming from this discussion.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Staff's already under the same limitations as members with these exceptions:

-Members can't disable rep.
-Supporting members can.
-Staff can't.

-Admins can multi-rep (coded in) but are not allowed to do so by policy. Abuse of that rule isn't tolerated. 

-Staff can see who repped them.


We had hard-limited staff previously but we were told that wasn't fair, so we removed the 20 point staff limitation as a result of that particular debate a few years back.


----------



## Kreth

Kacey said:


> No, I don't.  You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion - but if your surmise was the truth, then Bob Hubbard - who owns and operates this forum - would have considerably more rep than anyone else, as would the admins and super mods, who are farther up the chain than the mods and senior mods... and they don't, no matter how much they may deserve it (and they do deserve it), because they spend more time maintaining the board than posting on it.


Kacey, quit denying it. It's obvious that all of the staff are rep whores, and if Sa-- er, Ella wants to question that, well she's entirely within her rights. After all, it's a cookbook, a cookbook!



:uhyeah:


----------



## Mr. E

Bob Hubbard said:


> There are some other systems we can add that will do away with the "yup" replies.  One we've had great luck with on KenpoTalk is the "Thanks" system.  You just click a little "Thank you" button, and it shows your support in a non-annoying way.  The "No Thanks" system works the same way.



That might be a good system here. Maybe if people could see how many votes for and against what they wrote they could get feedback. You might even have a system like at Amazon that shows how many people thought the post was a good one. That would let people make a judgement about the post that is not based on what the person did in other threads. Some people do have bad days and have later apologized for their actions. And you might even have a system where the posts with the highest ratings could be accessed much like the threads that have been read the most appear at the bottom of the index.

That might let people go straight to the posts that contribute the most to martialtalk.

The problem is that sometimes people get more thanks for squashing cockroaches than mending the fence. To date, the most responses I have gotten for a post was six with this post. I have posted things a lot more constructive and positive. But this seems to be the post that everyone who read it had to rep me for and thank me.

I am not saying it is good or bad. I am just pointing out the problems if you impliment what I am thinking about. I find it a rather interesting look into human nature that the posts I try to help people with have not gotten as much response as the one where I squashed a very loathsome troll. I tend to also give more support to people who stand up to trolls than those who post informative things, so if there is something wrong with this, I am just as guilty.


----------



## jks9199

Ella said:


> Broke College student.
> 
> (is there some other kind?)


I've been a broke college student.  I've been a broke adult with obligations, too.

But I know, even at my brokest, I managed to spend $20 a year on silly things here and there.  (It's what, a week or two worth of Starbucks, for example.)

Bob has a great board here; it's clearly been a lot of work, and it has a fantastic atmosphere.  I think it's worth skipping a few lattes...  But that's my decision.  Yours is up to you.


----------



## morph4me

grydth said:


> Consider some advice from a professional troublemaker twice your age:
> 
> You're going to lose on this one..... or, then again, are you?
> 
> On the vote, it will be a major loss. Maybe it should be - this actually, on the whole, is a pretty decent and honest collection of folks.
> 
> But you stirred this whole issue up - and that's a win for you. Institutions need troublemakers, somebody who'll break a little glass and question sacred practices.
> 
> Mad as some people may get at you, you made them think and express why this part of the system is so important to them. A lot of folks now know just how important, how valued their praise for others is. Everyone wins when they look at themselves closely, and can then say," Yeah, this is what I do... and here's why... and I'm proud of it."
> 
> Don't ever leave a fight with a plaintive promise not to post anymore. You are better than that - and so are your opponents here. Leave when you're done shooting, not before. If that angers people, well sometimes they need to be riled. And if after you are done, you realize the other guys are right - then post _that_ and thank them for educating you. That'll bring you what the Gold Stars stand for - respect.


 
What he said, we need troublemakers and people who question authority, look at how lively this thread is 



shesulsa said:


> People who fear the "wrath" of a mod either have something to hide, are consciously aware they do not post near to the quality of other posters ... that or they're just plain shy.


 
"Wrath of Mod"  I can't decide if that sounds very biblical, or very Star Trek 



MBuzzy said:


> Although this may be oversimplifying things....seems to me that it is easy to solve.
> 
> Put a limit on the amount of stars you can get. Put a limit on the amount of rep altering power you can have. Put a limit on the numerical amount of rep that you can get (but still get comments and such, they just wouldn't alter your rep #).
> 
> No scrapping, no resetting....just inserting a ceiling.


 
Great suggestion, and actually on topic and to the point.


----------



## Brian King

*Bob Hubbard wrote:*



> Obviously, they lose power


 
Bob,
Power corrupts, it is human nature and the rep system is obviously broken. It reminds me of the old classic pinball machines Vs the newer machines debates. The old machines gave you 10 points for a good bump the new machines gave you 100,000 and a free ball for the same skill. 

Perhaps we do not need to fix the system, although I voted to fix it, perhaps we just have to recognize that somebody with a bunch of stars doesnt really mean anything other than they learned how to bump the game and can influence the direction of a thread by quieting and dampening discussion. You can now get multiple stars in just a hundred posts and if people are disinclined to use negative rep, the number of stars will just keep multiplying reinforcing their (the stars)meaninglessness and limit any kind of reasonable measure of recognition. 

I would think that everybody gets to add one point only and neg one point only, no matter how long you have been here or how many posts or how popular or unpopular you are. Big numbers do not add to the value but rather distort it IMHO.

*Arnisador wrote:*


> Ah, a math. question! Excellent. Personally, I favor the suggestion to keep the comments but without keeping score. A thumbs up/thumbs down symbol to clearly indicate how the comment is meant, similar to what you've described on *KenpoTalk*, could be useful. I would keep the anonymity option.
> 
> As to what would make most people happy, of course no one can say with certainty (and I might add that the 50 votes thus far don't seem likely to be representative of '_most_' people on a site of this size), but I think a reasonable fix of the current system that honors what has been posted here and in related discussions on this site might run as follows. First, reset the system. Not everyone will like this, but the current numbers are too far out-of-whack to be salvageable. Then:
> 
> *1.* Every user, save possibly the very newest (say, number of posts less than 10), gets 1 point of rep.-changing power per use, with up to 10 uses per day, with a spread-it-around rule allowing no one to rep. the same person more than once per calendar day (or similar time period).
> *2.* Rep. may be positive or negative but is _not _anonymous. If a neutral option can be implemented--allowing a person to make a comment but choose not to alter rep.--that would be desirable.
> *3.* Rep. may be given for whatever reason a person desires.
> *4.* Inappropriate comments will be deleted along with their quantitative effect.
> *5*. At every power of 10, a new rep. title is displayed.
> 
> This addresses concerns of mismatched repping power, ceilings, anonymity, oversized displays, and, if a zero rep. change option can be implemented, the ability to never give negative rep. but still make a comment. It eliminates the conflict with the rule that states that rep. should only be given for a good post, not just to friends. It retains the IM-like nature of the feature, the fun of helping build up the stature of someone one admires, the ability to encourage new users, the ability to me-too in a friendly but non-distracting way, and a display that guides new users to respected posters.
> 
> For the displays, I imagine a small banner placed under the name/title or anywhere else that is prominent that begins at a rep. of 1, changes at 10, then at 100, then at 1000, and so on. People will quickly tire of using 1-point increments to go from 1,000 to 10,000, but will easily be able to get those they respect to the 10 and 100 point levels. Clearly, 100,000 rep. points is a goal unlikely to be reached. Hence, I would imagine titles like:
> 
> 1: New MartialTalk Poster
> 10: Notable MartialTalk Poster
> 100: Senior MartialTalk Poster
> 1000: Distinguished MartialTalk Poster
> 
> For zero rep., display nothing; that first rep. will be a nice bit of encouragement as a new If these levels are too few, I understand that it's easy to add extra ones.banner pops up. For neg. rep., display nothing. If you have nothing good to say about someone, why say anything at all? A stigmatizing banner is not consistent with a friendly site.


Well thought out and matches my opinion and thoughts FWIW

Brian King


----------



## Sapper6

the system isn't broke; it shouldn't even be an issue.  

if people are here/not here because the rep system, then they are here/not here for the wrong ****ing reasons.  this fact alone is not because of the system, but rather people with issues larger than these.

people get complexes about stupid ****.  lets change everything a few don't care for.  imagine if the world ran this way.

back to penguin bashing.


----------



## arnisador

Sapper6 said:


> if people are here/not here because the rep system, then they are here/not here for the wrong ****ing reasons.



Once more, in slow motion (if your browser supports this feature):

_*No one has said anything remotely like that.*_

This is, I suppose, a version of the Ad Populum logical fallacy (substitute rep. in example #2 at that page), but I find it more a Straw Man approach.


----------



## Sukerkin

Well said *Sapper*.  

This thread is wallowing on far too long for it's original purpose.  Extreme opinions are being expressed that have no bearing really on the actuality of the situation.  

It would be uncharitable to ascribe motives to some of the naysayers, so I shall not do so (tho' I do confess that horrid connotations lurk within that very phrase itself; my apologies ).

Chaps, with all that is going wildly wrong with the world today, don't get too hung up on a rep system that has served this board well for many years just because some do not profit by it.

If you are argumentative, abusive, hold opinions divergent from consensus et al, then you won't accrue rep.  It's as simple as that.  That doesn't mean your opinions are irrelevant.  In fact, to contradict myself a little, I've repped people who disagree with me because they argued their point very well, sometimes in the face of quite overwhelming pressure.

To state, for a third time :blush:, the only thing wrong with the system is the escalting rep power as good people climb the 'ladder'.  Because they *are* good people, the 'higher beings' tend not to get involved in the rep system because they perceive how unbalancing their throw-weight is.  That's unfair to them as they don't get to enjoy the small frisson of fellow feeling that clicking rep can bring.

To finish, the rep system should stay.  I like it and get a deal of joy from it.  

If people don't like it, then ignore it.  Your words carry the same weight with me whatever the 'star count' ... until I've actually read them.  I might pay more attention to seeing what some people have said than others but that's dictated by the fact that either they are my friends (in the Net sense of the term because I've met none of you yet ) or because I know from experience that it'll be worth reading.  How many 'stars' do they have?  If it's more than 'some' I don't notice.

EDIT: ROLF - could you get more of a contrast than the last post of *Arnie* and mine :lol:.


----------



## Sapper6

arnisador said:


> Once more, in slow motion (if your browser supports this feature):
> 
> _*No one has said anything remotely like that.*_
> 
> This is, I suppose, a version of the Ad Populum logical fallacy (substitute rep. in example #2 at that page), but I find it more a Straw Man approach.


 
no need to yell dude.   

no one has to say it, it's simply implied.  why the hell make a big deal over such a minor issue?  my statement has weight here Mr. Arnisador, whether you recognize it or not.  most people are here for martial arts talk.  actually, everyone should be here for martial arts talk.  not to give two ***** about reputation.

ya know, i got an idea.  i'd like Mr. Hubbard to reset every score in the arcade to 0 cause i can't seem to win at anything cause i'm a ****ing loser.

you know rediculous that sounds?  same same.

btw, take a valium.


----------



## Sapper6

Sukerkin said:


> Well said *Sapper*.
> 
> This thread is wallowing on far too long for it's original purpose. Extreme opinions are being expressed that have no bearing really on the actuality of the situation.
> 
> It would be uncharitable to ascribe motives to some of the naysayers, so I shall not do so (tho' I do confess that horrid connotations lurk within that very phrase itself; my apologies ).
> 
> Chaps, with all that is going wildly wrong with the world today, don't get too hung up on a rep system that has served this board well for many years just because some do not profit by it.
> 
> If you are argumentative, abusive, hold opinions divergent from consensus et al, then you won't accrue rep. It's as simple as that. That doesn't mean your opinions are irrelevant. In fact, to contradict myself a little, I've repped people who disagree with me because they argued their point very well, sometimes in the face of quite overwhelming pressure.
> 
> To state, for a third time :blush:, the only thing wrong with the system is the escalting rep power as good people climb the 'ladder'. Because they *are* good people, the 'higher beings' tend not to get involved in the rep system because they perceive how unbalancing their throw-weight is. That's unfair to them as they don't get to enjoy the small frisson of fellow feeling that clicking rep can bring.
> 
> To finish, the rep system should stay. I like it and get a deal of joy from it.
> 
> If people don't like it, then ignore it. Your words carry the same weight with me whatever the 'star count' ... until I've actually read them. I might pay more attention to seeing what some people have said than others but that's dictated by the fact that either they are my friends (in the Net sense of the term because I've met none of you yet ) or because I know from experience that it'll be worth reading. How many 'stars' do they have? If it's more than 'some' I don't notice.
> 
> EDIT: ROLF - could you get more of a contrast than the last post of *Arnie* and mine :lol:.


 
very well said my tea-sipping friend.


----------



## Sukerkin

Sapper6 said:


> very well said my tea-sipping friend.


 
Not tonight, I'm embarassed to admit that I'm deep 'in my cups' courtesy of Rosemount Estates - normal tea imbibing service will be resumed after the week-end :lol:.


----------



## Drac

Sukerkin said:


> This thread is wallowing on far too long for it's original purpose. Extreme opinions are being expressed that have no bearing really on the actuality of the situation.


 
Well said Sukerkin..*Look at the poll*..With the exception of a few whiners no one else sees the need to change it......Nuff said already...


----------



## Brian King

*Sapper6 wrote:*



> the system isn't broke; it shouldn't even be an issue.


 



> If people are here/not here because the rep system, then they are here/not here for the wrong ****ing reasons. this fact alone is not because of the system, but rather people with issues larger than these.


 



> people get complexes about stupid ****.


 



> why the hell make a big deal over such a minor issue?


 



> not to give two ***** about reputation.


 


> ya know, i got an idea. i'd like Mr. Hubbard to reset every score in the arcade to 0 cause i can't seem to win at anything cause i'm a ****ing loser.


 


> you know rediculous that sounds? same same.


 



> btw, take a valium.


 
Sir, an opinion was asked for by Mr. Hubbard in the OP. I find it amusing that it offends so many when the asked for opinion is thus given. I notice for an issue that in your opinion shouldnt be an issue you have posted five times and counting, don't get wrong, I think that overall that is a good thing; discussion is usually a good thing in my opinion. The fact that your opinion of those with differing opinions than your own deserves your derision and cursing is a reflection of you and your style and your upbringing. To say that people who think a system could be improved upon as having large issues, having complexes and calling the (insert one of you many curse words here) losers is all good and well I suppose, trading insults veiled or otherwise is a forum skill that is admired and practiced by many. To have to use cursing to try to make your points on a public forum demonstrates that more work and time could have been given to the posts so that they could be readable by all of the audience adult and child.

I do not ever advocate the taking of Valium but sometimes do advocate that others should perhaps follow their own advice.

*Drac wrote:*



> Well said Sukerkin..*Look at the poll*..With the exception of a few whiners no one else sees the need to change it......Nuff said already...


 
Hey Drac, I remind you that we have met in the past and will likely meet sometime in the futureexactly who are you calling whiners and why do you feel such a need to try to influence the poll?

Bob, Perhaps the next poll should be a read only poll with no comments allowed until after the poll closes? And yes I am sure that this subject will return yet again in the future.
Brian King


----------



## Bob Hubbard

We have 53 total votes.

We have had 337 members visit in the last 24 hours.

That's 284 "No Opinion's"

Interesting eh?


----------



## grydth

No, depressing. That is how we get the "elected" officials we suffer under...


----------



## grydth

Drac said:


> Well said Sukerkin..*Look at the poll*..With the exception of a few whiners no one else sees the need to change it......Nuff said already...



You think _this_ has been whining? 

You couldn't handle my *real* whining. 

Keep it up and when I'm done, I'll make your mothers-in-law sound good by comparison.

:soapbox:


----------



## arnisador

Sapper6 said:


> i'm a ****ing loser.



I grant that you've made your point admirably.



> take a valium.



Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Sapper6

Brian said:


> Sir, an opinion was asked for by Mr. Hubbard in the OP. I find it amusing that it offends so many when the asked for opinion is thus given. I notice for an issue that in your opinion shouldn&#8217;t be an issue you have posted five times and counting, don't get wrong, I think that overall that is a good thing; discussion is usually a good thing in my opinion. The fact that your opinion of those with differing opinions than your own deserves your derision and cursing is a reflection of you and your style and your upbringing. To say that people who think a system could be improved upon as having large issues, having complexes and calling the (insert one of you many curse words here) losers is all good and well I suppose, trading insults veiled or otherwise is a forum skill that is admired and practiced by many. To have to use cursing to try to make your points on a public forum demonstrates that more work and time could have been given to the posts so that they could be readable by all of the audience adult and child.
> 
> I do not ever advocate the taking of Valium but sometimes do advocate that others should perhaps follow their own advice.


 
please don't call me sir.

forums are about opinions, period.  some more absurd than others.

please, don't begin to try and analyze my "style and upbringing".  it has no relevance here other than to discredit my stance on this issue, which btw, i have yet to lose sleep over.  in the end, it's the forum owner's decision; not yours, mine, or anyone else's.  all there is to do is state slanted opinion on the issue.

point being, i don't see a problem with the rep system.  others do.  big deal.  cursing in a post shouldn't be the issue.  perhaps there's not a need for it.  well there certainly isn't a need for type 27 bold font to get your point across either.

what it comes down to is, a user (fairly new) is questioning the use of the reputation system used by the forum in comparison with others she'd frequented.  the system has been the subject of outright abuse, on the account of the thread originator.  all i'm doing is calling BS without call "BS".  take it how you see it.  i don't care.  

the system isn't broken.  people's perception of the system is broken.

have a nice (minus the expletive) day.

:asian:


----------



## Sapper6

Bob Hubbard said:


> We have 53 total votes.
> 
> We have had 337 members visit in the last 24 hours.
> 
> That's 284 "No Opinion's"
> 
> Interesting eh?


 
sure it is.  

but there is also a poll.  284 non-voting people don't care, nor should their opinions matter, should they not vote.  (thinking of last presidential election).


----------



## Sapper6

arnisador said:


> I grant that you've made your point admirably.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice.


 
no, thank you!


----------



## Tames D

I voted to keep it as it is. It's a fun thing. And obviously it's not that important to me as I don't have a whole lot of rep. If it's not fun for you, don't play.


----------



## Tames D

Ella said:


> You dont think its a good possibility that *moderators get more rep points, possibly from users hoping to make a good impression?* Or, the flipside, they dont get negatively repped as much, because a member doesn't want to risk the "wrath" of a mod?


Ella - I'm living proof that this is not true...


----------



## shesulsa

For the record, I have not voted.  It has already been accused that moderators and admins sway reputation in a manner which would be abusive of their powers, hence I will not vote in the poll.


----------



## BrandiJo

is there something wrong with the rep system? I really don't see a problem ... it seems more fun then anything else. I have been on almost 2 years , i hardly post out of the LLR so my rep reflects the fact that i don't come out and "play" with others much. (no stars or what have ya)

If you want the rep to be more then a game. Ok i hardly post out of the LLR so i don't contribute much on the main boards my rep reflects that as well... 

I still don't see the problem. Is it with the members who have tons of rep? well they have been around a long time, and they post lots... so to me logic would say they have higher rep ... and sense people seem to like what they say they have more bang when they decide to rep someone else.

anyways my two cents, it has worked for as long as it has ... why go and mess with it now?​


----------



## Drac

shesulsa said:


> For the record, I have not voted. It has already been accused that moderators and admins sway reputation in a manner which would be abusive of their powers, hence I will not vote in the poll.


 
I voted..Let them BELIEVE what they will..If they anger us with any more false accusations we will neg rep them into the void...LOL x100...


----------



## Rich Parsons

Bob Hubbard said:


> We have 53 total votes.
> 
> We have had 337 members visit in the last 24 hours.
> 
> That's 284 "No Opinion's"
> 
> Interesting eh?




Do the no opinions count?


----------



## Rich Parsons

shesulsa said:


> For the record, I have not voted. It has already been accused that moderators and admins sway reputation in a manner which would be abusive of their powers, hence I will not vote in the poll.



I understand the issue of Admin's and the perceived issue of abuse by some. 

If you like what they say and give them rep it is too much

If you spread it out too lots of people it is just the staff balancing and artificially raising the level. (* Inflation *)

Sorry I have the economy and market on my mind and since it too is a warm fuzzy of confidence, where if everyone beleived that the money dumped on the markets would help and get people spending and borrowing money then all would be good. But if investors are still hesitant then it is bad.

It is all about perception. 

I could joke with "G" or Lisa and they would not take offense, while someone who might have over heard would take offense. And in the issue of sexual harassment and violence in the work place it s not intent, but impact as stated by the US Supreme court that matters. So, even if your actions were acceptable to some, but others found them to be unacceptable you are guilty of creating a bad environment. 

In the end you, you have an overly PC environment where people are to be open but are afraid to say anything, for fear of being fired or banned or warned. Now of course there are limits (* look at the US Constitution, and also the rules here for this site *), and those limits should be within reason. 


As stated early there is no way to make everyone happy.

There is a way to make everyone unhappy and to solve the problems completly. The Staff all quit. The owner walks away as what little he might get out of the site does not support the headaches and pain it causes.

Now can any system be improved? Yes. 

Should every system be reviewed from time to time for such improvement? Yes. 

But recognize that with "Warm Fuzzies" and peoples perceptions of themselves aka EGO, I am not sure how to make it work. We could give everyone a Gold star to start with. Or a gold start for their first month as a member. or A gold star for their 'xth' post. Then everyone can see their reputation is good.  But some people beleive they have to say it and they are right even if everyone else knows other wise. Should these people be given the same rewards just because? I say no, as the ranking system does that with number of posts. (* And yes, the number of Black belts who get online and post within their first ten, "I really AM a black belt or 'xth' degree not a white belt." Even here not everyone can be made happy. 

Should the system be based upon actual rank in a system or organization? This would require people supplying information to the staff. This would put liability on the staf if for some reason they accepted someone who might have had their rank removed. Lots of legal issues and money issues. But let say everyone is honest and this is not the concern should it still be done? No. If this is the case some sixth degree will make his comment and then no one under him can respond or ask a question or challenge those on high. The issue is that those that could corrct or put him place are in another org or not online at all. So you get a very small number of people directing the tone of the board per style/system. This keeps a closed minded atmosphere, which I believe is the total opposite of the owners original wishe and also what the Internet forums in general are for for. If it was allowed or executed this way one only gets people repeating what the higher ups have said. This is boring. This leads not no posts. This leads to the death of the forum. No difference are allowed to be rought out into the light to examine and possible grow by. 

So, The Rep system as all systems can be an issue. If there was no system, then people would have to go by post count. If we did not count posts, then it is totally based upon what people read. Which is fine by me. But, there also is no incentive to post and share. There is no reward so if the person with 10000 posts looks the same as the person with one, then why have 10000 posts? (* My assumptio is 10000 posts with information *)

Of course I like to reset all counters from time to time. Just to start over. But that is me. I know that many othes do not. That is fine by me as well. I do not expect nor assume that this site or others will follow my beliefs and or wishes. I am a guest here, at the whim of the owner and his delgated staff members. Of course if they all were jerks we would leave. If they were to get rid of everyone no one would be here. And in both cases the site does not prosper.


I wish the board and the staff good luck in this. For I see no real answer. Even with change there will be some who are upset. Even with the same sytem and a reset based upon the calendar year, some will be upset. 

Given the shear volume of posts and information here, it is like a library, where you walk in and ask for help and the librarian rolls their eyes and walks you over to the section you need in a huff. But it is so big on your first few visits you cannot read it all nor know where everything is. After time people go to their favorite sections and then after their browse they leave. So if the library rules have changed, they might not know about it, untill the break one. 

Frustration. 

Pure and total frustration.

Sory for the rant. no back to the topic of do we change and or reorganize the rep system.


----------



## Jade Tigress

*ATTENTION ALL USERS*

Thread locked pending review.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator


----------



## Lisa

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

This thread is being reopened as we would like the poll to run until the end of the month.  Please refrain from any disruption of this thread.  Any further rude or disruptive comments will not be tolerated and action will be taken by the moderating team.

Thank you.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.*


----------



## kidswarrior

Drac said:


> High up from the highest tree. MT would you weep for me..Doot ,doot , doot ,do, do, doota, do...


Old Timers! _Sheesh_. BTW, did Roger Miller first make that a hit? (NOTE: This is a trap ).

OK, sorry for going OT. But I'm just now reading this thread start to finish, and I needed some _RELIEF!!! _before continuing.Now back to the topic at hand. :asian:


----------



## kidswarrior

Alright, finished reading the whole thread and feel like my head's in a vise. So I'll make a couple of suggestions for possible modifications, and hope they make sense. 

1) Limit negative repping quantity (say max of 50, or 100 points). I got neg repped my first week for s.th. that maybe was, maybe wasn't fair, and it did nothing to help me understand the board and be a more positive contributor.

2) No anonymous neg repping. Reason is obvious--to me anyway.

3) Have a ceiling on repping points a poster can give, but no ceiling on how much each can receive. For those with whole galaxies, distinguish a group of 10 gold stars by making them one star of another color, just as we move the digit over one place in arithmetic to indicate it now counts as 10 of those (eg: 1=1, but a 2 added to the left of it=*2*1). So, maybe the 20 in the case of stars could be represented by two blue stars, or green ones, or pink, or whatever. :erg:

OK, that's all I got.


----------



## Sukerkin

Nooooo!! Not _pink_ stars .

Other than that, an excellent summary of the best suggestions *kds* :tup:.


----------



## Skip Cooper

I would not miss the rep system if it were to be disabled, but it would not bother me if it were re-vamped or left alone. Yes, I am the proverbial fence-sitter on this issue.


----------



## Shotochem

Skip Cooper said:


> I would not miss the rep system if it were to be disabled, but it would not bother me if it were re-vamped or left alone. Yes, I am the proverbial fence-sitter on this issue.


 

I feel much the same.  I value and enjoy the opinions and discussions here. 

 The amount of rep a person has, has little bearing on what my opinion of ones post is.  The same holds true on the mat.  

You could be a 20th dan in "Me-SO-Good-Do" and I would still equate it to Dungeonds and Dragons "my level 66 Elf is better than your level 90 Warrior". 

 It's the content that matters.

-Marc-


----------



## CoryKS

Sukerkin said:


> Nooooo!! Not _pink_ stars .
> 
> Other than that, an excellent summary of the best suggestions *kds* :tup:.


 
How 'bout pink hearts, yellow moons, and blue diamonds?  What this forum needs is a Lucky Charms motif, dammit.


----------



## terryl965

CoryKS said:


> How 'bout pink hearts, yellow moons, and blue diamonds? What this forum needs is a Lucky Charms motif, dammit.


 
Nah lets make it more of as count dracula thing.


----------



## Drac

terryl965 said:


> Nah lets make it more of as count dracula thing.


 
Watch it sucka!!!!


----------



## 14 Kempo

terryl965 said:


> Nah lets make it more of as count dracula thing.


 
That's Count Chocula ... come on Terry.


----------



## Carol

Always after me Lucky Charms...


----------



## terryl965

14 Kempo said:


> That's Count Chocula ... come on Terry.


 
Ok so I'm not a ceral buff. I like only Frosted Flakes.


----------



## Makalakumu

I voted to keep the system as is because as it stands, it doesn't really mean that much in terms of content.  People who post often and in popular places are going to have higher reps.  People who have much more specific info in more obscure areas may not have higher reps.  Thus, the system is really only showing the collective approval of the contributions of various community members with no contextual criteria.  Which isn't neccesarily a bad thing.  I'm comfortable being brainy in some areas and less social in others.


----------



## exile

upnorthkyosa said:


> I voted to keep the system as is because as it stands, it doesn't really mean that much in terms of content.  People who post often and in popular places are going to have higher reps.  People who have much more specific info in more obscure areas may not have higher reps.  Thus, *the system is really only showing the collective approval of the contributions of various community members with no contextual criteria.*  Which isn't neccesarily a bad thing.  I'm comfortable being brainy in some areas and less social in others.



Good points, UpN. If you're right&#8212;and I very much suspect you are&#8212;it suggests that the problem people who don't like the current system have is not so much with the system itself, but rather with the way other people may draw conclusions from it. The particular system in force&#8212;which is only one among many possible ones&#8212;is pretty neutral. In itself, it doesn't tell you much more than what is suggested in the lines I've bolded. There's no way such a system can quantify the _worth_ of the contributions made by any given member. It can't do anything but record the response of members to a bunch of posts. If you ask people to vote on favorite ice cream flavors, almost certainly it will turn out to be the case that vanilla, chocolate and butter pecan will be the top three flavors, at least according to ice cream industry polls that I've seen. But what does that fact mean to the people for whom burgundy cherry or mint chocolate chip are the best things ever created? And so on...

I think UpN, and others who've made similar points, such as Sukerkin, have got the essence of it here; and I think that what the people who are unhappy about the system are actually unhappy about is that members with relatively lower rep will be perceived as somehow less valuable to the board than those with higher rep. But some of the very best, most insightful and informative posts I've seen on the board have been made by people with relatively low rep (and, not coincidentally, lower post counts)&#8212;and (I'd like to think that) anyone who spends much time on MT could say the same thing. 

I don't think any particular change to the rep system will change the facts that (i) people who post more, and who post in a way which corresponds to the `collective will' of the board, are going to accumulate more rep, and that (ii) the quality of any given post is not necessarily correlated with the poster's rep numbers. I'd bet high that if we have any rational rep system at all, then the same substantive issues are going to arise no matter what form that rep system takes. You just have to assume that people, on the whole, aren't going to confuse rep with intelligence, logic, rationality or whatever. And if they do... well, that's really _their_ contradiction, as me mum used to say... and I very much doubt that any change in the rules of the game are going to be able to ensure that higher rep guarantees higher intelligence, logic, or rationality (or the converse, for that matter). 

It's not academe, folks, where people who don't get enough `rep' from the journal referees don't publish and do perish, and have their careers destroyed in the process. _Be glad._


----------



## arnisador

exile said:


> But some of the very best, most insightful and informative posts I've seen on the board have been made by people with relatively low rep



Leading one to wonder if _reputation _is the best name for the score?


----------



## shesulsa

arnisador said:


> Leading one to wonder if _reputation _is the best name for the score?


And once again we return to the question of how much a person's reputation matters and what it really means - which is ALL a matter of popular opinion.  REMEMBER:  Al Gore won the popular vote ... but he wasn't President now was he?

I think the error in your thinking is that you are applying logic to a feel-good system which is logically doomed.

People get rep for hilarious posts - by the nature of your argument this should never happen.  People get reputation for being supportive of others - by your argument this should never happen.  People get rep for playing devil's advocate or inserting a moderator warning.  By your argument this should never happen.  Staff can get rep for initiating good board policy - by your definitions this should never happen.

Your desire for the reputation system to be mathematically and categorically correct cannot be achieved because no feel-good system is designed for this.  That is to say unless our coding guru can mandate that staff are immune to reputation giving and receiving as long as they carry a staff banner, can disallow reputation in all but martial forums, and can discern the posts in those forums as to quality, then your utopian idea of reputation is hopeless, sorry.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

shesulsa said:


> And once again we return to the question of how much a person's reputation matters and what it really means - which is ALL a matter of popular opinion.  REMEMBER:  Al Gore won the popular vote ... but he wasn't President now was he?
> 
> I think the error in your thinking is that you are applying logic to a feel-good system which is logically doomed.
> 
> People get rep for hilarious posts - by the nature of your argument this should never happen.  People get reputation for being supportive of others - by your argument this should never happen.  People get rep for playing devil's advocate or inserting a moderator warning.  By your argument this should never happen.  Staff can get rep for initiating good board policy - by your definitions this should never happen.
> 
> Your desire for the reputation system to be mathematically and categorically correct cannot be achieved because no feel-good system is designed for this.  That is to say unless our coding guru can mandate that staff are immune to reputation giving and receiving as long as they carry a staff banner, can disallow reputation in all but martial forums, and can discern the posts in those forums as to quality, then your utopian idea of reputation is hopeless, sorry.


Uh, no, not without massively rewiting the system and being forced to reexamine and remodify things everything vB makes a change in the core software.


----------



## Brian King

So if I understand the views that say the system is lopsided and/or broken and if I understand all who say it does not matter, leave the scoring system as it is, it is a feel good system and such should also have absolutely no problem simply changing the name of the system. Perhaps instead of reputation we should call it popularity which does seem to more fit the way that most here write how they use and read it. If you tell a good joke you become more popular, if you support somebody you become more popular and so on. If you are a jerk you become less popular. 

Problem solved. Instead of reputation points now call them popularity points. The number of stars will still be increasing at an expediential rate but it is only popularity and who really cares about that other than the shallow sad folks yet it will still be a method of encouragement and control as most want to be liked.

Brian King


----------



## arnisador

shesulsa said:


> People get rep for hilarious posts - by the nature of your argument this should never happen.



I don't recall arguing anything at all like that.



> Your desire for the reputation system to be mathematically and categorically correct



You're simply making things up and attributing them to me.

I explained my position here.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Current vote is:
36 Keep it
27 Change it
673 not voting/no opinion (based on member logins since poll began)


----------



## Flying Crane

Bob Hubbard said:


> Current vote is:
> 36 Keep it
> 27 Change it
> 673 not voting/no opinion (based on member logins since poll began)


 

Hey Bob,

I haven't voted, as I don't see a choice that seems best.

Maybe everyone should just keep the points they have, but put a cap on how much rep power someone can accumulate?  This way the collection of stars might slow down a bit, and maybe even cap the number of stars.  Once you hit that cap, you just don't acquire any more rep.  People can hit you with a rep comment, but don't add it to the total anymore.

I've been saying this kind of thing all along, regarding rank in the martial arts.  If you still need a carrot dangled in front of your nose to keep training, then maybe you aren't really blackbelt quality.  Black should be black, ditch all the rest of the degrees and stuff.

Same thing here.  Cap it out, don't go beyond the cap, but don't ditch what people have already, unless the cap on stars would be lower than some already have.  Bring it to that line and then just hold it there.


----------



## terryl965

Flying Crane said:


> Hey Bob,
> 
> I haven't voted, as I don't see a choice that seems best.
> 
> Maybe everyone should just keep the points they have, but put a cap on how much rep power someone can accumulate? This way the collection of stars might slow down a bit, and maybe even cap the number of stars. Once you hit that cap, you just don't acquire any more rep. People can hit you with a rep comment, but don't add it to the total anymore.
> 
> I've been saying this kind of thing all along, regarding rank in the martial arts. If you still need a carrot dangled in front of your nose to keep training, then maybe you aren't really blackbelt quality. Black should be black, ditch all the rest of the degrees and stuff.
> 
> Same thing here. Cap it out, don't go beyond the cap, but don't ditch what people have already, unless the cap on stars would be lower than some already have. Bring it to that line and then just hold it there.


 

Very well said


----------



## Kreth

Flying Crane said:


> I've been saying this kind of thing all along, regarding rank in the martial arts. If you still need a carrot dangled in front of your nose to keep training, then maybe you aren't really blackbelt quality. Black should be black, ditch all the rest of the degrees and stuff.


I'd rep you for this post, but I don't want to over-inflate your total...


----------



## Flying Crane

Kreth said:


> I'd rep you for this post, but I don't want to over-inflate your total...


 
heh heh, that's ok, Bob will just take it away again if necessary.


----------



## Ella

shesulsa said:


> artyon:





terryl965 said:


> Very well said Brian this is the best board on the net.





MJS said:


> Probably one of the best suggestions I've seen so far!!






Sapper6 said:


> very well said my tea-sipping friend.






terryl965 said:


> Very well said



Some people have been mentioning some things about a thumbs up/thumbs down system. So perhaps we could add something like that, in addition to the rep system. That way, perhaps less posts similar to those above find their way into threads, because they seem rather pointless; to me, at least.

Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space


----------



## terryl965

Ella said:


> Some people have been mentioning some things about a thumbs up/thumbs down system. So perhaps we could add something like that, in addition to the rep system. That way, perhaps less posts similar to those above find their way into threads, because they seem rather pointless; to me, at least.
> 
> Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space


 

You mean like your post, please do not make statement that you yourself practice.


----------



## Sapper6

Ella said:


> Some people have been mentioning some things about a thumbs up/thumbs down system. So perhaps we could add something like that, in addition to the rep system. That way, perhaps less posts similar to those above find their way into threads, because they seem rather pointless; to me, at least.
> 
> Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space


 
well, i would have just rep'd the guy for his statement but it seems you would have had a problem with that as well.


----------



## Drac

Sapper6 said:


> well, i would have just rep'd the guy for his statement but it seems you would have had a problem with that as well.


 
I did rep him....


----------



## exile

Ella said:


> Some people have been mentioning some things about a thumbs up/thumbs down system. So perhaps we could add something like that, in addition to the rep system. That way, perhaps less posts similar to those above find their way into threads, because they seem rather pointless; to me, at least.
> 
> Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space



Well, now, Ella, if the posts in question add `no new information or thoughts or anything', and are `kinda... a waste of space', then exactly how would a thumbs up/thumbs down commentary be any better? If all it did was encode the same thing that the posts which you're dismissing do, then how would it have any more value than those same posts? If the posts seem `rather pointless' (to you, at least), then exactly how would the thumbs up/down information be any _less_ pointless? After all, if all you're talking about is alternative way of expressing something you think has no value, then how would it be an improvement? And if it isn't, why would you suggest it? 

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing how your suggestion adds up to anything different from what you're complaining about. I don't share your assessment of those posts in the least, btw, but given your view of them, why would you offer a counterproposal that conveyed no more information than _they_ do?


----------



## Kacey

Bob Hubbard said:


> Current vote is:
> 36 Keep it
> 27 Change it
> 673 not voting/no opinion (based on member logins since poll began)





Ella said:


> Some people have been mentioning some things about a thumbs up/thumbs down system. So perhaps we could add something like that, in addition to the rep system. That way, perhaps less posts similar to those above find their way into threads, because they seem rather pointless; to me, at least.
> 
> Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space



If you don't like it, then don't participate in it.  There's no one holding a gun to your head and forcing you to log on to MT.  The majority of the voters favor leaving the system as it is at the moment.  Should that change, I have no doubt that the ideas posted in this thread will be considered as possible changes.  Unless and until that time... what's the point of your comments, other than to repeat things you've already said?  You know... the same thing you're accusing others of doing.


----------



## arnisador

exile said:


> Well, now, Ella, if the posts in question add `no new information or thoughts or anything', and are `kinda... a waste of space', then exactly how would a thumbs up/thumbs down commentary be any better?



Well, now, *Exile*, I assume she was referring to the *KenpoTalk*-style thumbs up/thumbs down rep,. system that Bob Hubbard mentioned earlier in this thread, where someone can leave a comment that appears as rep. does here--viewable only by the recipient--with a thumb symbol to make clear whether the comment is intended to be positive or negative, but without a score being calculated. This lets the AOLers get their "Me too!!!" posts out of their system without derailing the thread. That would be better.



Kacey said:


> There's no one holding a gun to your head and forcing you to log on to MT.



Good point. I agree with *Kacey*. If you dislike any aspect of this site, or think the board could be improved in any way, _PLEASE GO AWAY!!!_


----------



## Carol

arnisador said:


> Well, now, *Exile*, I assume she was referring to the *KenpoTalk*-style thumbs up/thumbs down rep,. system that Bob Hubbard mentioned earlier in this thread, where someone can leave a comment that appears as rep. does here--viewable only by the recipient--with a thumb symbol to make clear whether the comment is intended to be positive or negative, but without a score being calculated. This lets the AOLers get their "Me too!!!" posts out of their system without derailing the thread. That would be better.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. I agree with *Kacey*. If you dislike any aspect of this site, or think the board could be improved in any way, _PLEASE GO AWAY!!!_



KenpoTalk's rep system has a score associated with it.  I think it may be a bit different from MT's but there is definitely a score calculated.

However, there is also a "Thanks" system where one can push a button and have a signed "thanks" appear in-thread.  

While this doesn't count towards a "score", each member's post does describe how many times they have given "Thanks" and how many times they have received "Thanks".


----------



## arnisador

Carol Kaur said:


> KenpoTalk's rep system has a score associated with it.  I think it may be a bit different from MT's but there is definitely a score calculated.
> 
> However, there is also a "Thanks" system where one can push a button and have a signed "thanks" appear in-thread.



OK, I thought _only _the "Thanks" system was implemented, but this post doesn't say it's the only one.


----------



## Carol

arnisador said:


> OK, I thought _only _the "Thanks" system was implemented, but this post doesn't say it's the only one.




The "Thanks" system was implemented first, then the reputation system was added afterwards.  I think Bob spotlights it a lot because it has been successful over there, and its different than the rep system.

I think the thanks system on KT gets used a lot more, for a couple of reasons. One is because it was first, and its easy.   The other is, the reputation system requires 20 unique rep hits before repping someone again.  That may work on Martial Talk but on Kenpo Talk that is a bit more of a challenge due to the smaller number of active users.  It's a little frustrating because I keep getting advised that I need to spread my rep around, but with a 20 name cycle I keep forgetting who I've repped and 
not repped.  Opening up separate windows to view user CP...before repping  a post...sometimes it takes longer to rep a post than it does to read a post.

The reputation is public.  One thing I was a little disappointed to see is that the public rep didn't stop the in-thread off-topic squabbles that fall to the subject of rep instead of the posted topic.

Here on MT, we might see someone say "Whoever neg repped me for XXXXXX, I think you're full of bull."

Unfortunately over there we've seen some squabbles where one member calls another member out for neg repping them in the thread, and that becomes even more distracting because the person called out is likely to respond and put their two cents in and a hockey game ends up breaking out. 

Thats been the biggest disadvantage that I see - if a squabble does happen, it gets personal.

There are, however, a few options that are workable.  It may be more a matter of finding the right combination.


----------



## exile

arnisador said:


> This lets the AOLers get their "Me too!!!" posts out of their system without derailing the thread.



How does an assent derail the thread??

If you're having a conversation with friends, or even with non-friends, and someone says, `You know, that's a really good point', do you feel that the conversation has been derailed? If you're talking about wine, say, and someone says, `I think this increased alcohol content in wine across the board is a really bad thing' and someone else says `yes, I've been thinking that ever since it began', is that quite the same thing as a response to the first comment along the lines of `Well, think of it as an increase in gasoline octane, ... and while we're on the subject, don't you think that all these new six-cylinder models are just a marketing scheme?'  A `me too' doesn't inherently derail the thread; on the contrary, it serves to emphasize that one of the positions on the table has multiple backers whom you need to convince if you want to successfully defend a different position. And that's a component of the conversation that the thumbs up/down setup undercuts. 

Based on this last post, what you (and Ella?) seem to be saying is, if you agree with any of the positions already stated, we don't wanna hear about it. But... do you really _operate_ by that rule in a conversation with your pals over a beer or two? Do you actually regard essentially phatic posts, of the kind you dismiss as originating from `AOLers',  as disruptions of the proper business of a thread?


----------



## jks9199

Bob, I know this is just a little off topic...

As I post, the poll is showing about 63 votes.  I recall an earlier post mentioning some 670+ members...  

Do you have any way to figure out about how many of those members vote and read regularly?  For example, I used to visit a mountain bike forum a lot... but haven't as much lately.  I'm still a member there...  but if you look at raw membership for something and assess a non-vote as a vote for the status quo -- I'm really dead weight.  My non-vote there isn't "let's stay with the status quo"; it's "I haven't checked into things lately..."  (Of course, we can string this even deeper here, like how many people haven't voted simply because they haven't read it...)  

A similar problem is in counting "views"; I've viewed this thread at least 3 times today, alone, just because someone changed something.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I can't (without some hacking) tell who viewed this thread...but I have to believe that if it was of interest, they would have read it.


----------



## Brian King

> There's no one holding a gun to your head and forcing you to log on to MT


 
Hey folks an opinion was asked for. Beating on somebody, being rude, being mean, just because their opinion is different than yours is childlike and this board deserves better. If you do not like what they post then post your views but do not try to stifle the communication. The very fact that so many are taking this personally tells us all something about the people here and how we are responding should also tell us about this community. I run a couple of small businesses and when I ask for opinions I had better listen. I do not get angry at those that do not tell me what I want to hear. I have to value their honesty and thank them for it even if it is very personal and hard to swallow. If you do not want to hear contrarian opinions then say so. We can all post me too posts and sing folk songs together. To say take it or leave it. Do not contribute or try to contribute to improve if it goes against the supposed majority shows shallowness and selfishness and frankly a shortsightedness.

If you want to be mad at somebody be mad at BOB. He asked for the opinion and this is his board. If you do not like the fact that some have been given the chance to voice their opinions perhaps take your petty anger out at Bob for providing these pesky contrarians the means of stating their views and upsetting you.

The vote stands so far 36 to 27. A mathematician can tell me what the percentage is, I do not know, but what I do know is that if I have customers or employees and I am only pleasing them by that percentage, I will not be in business long. I have to strive to get better and better. I can not rest thinking that well, I please half and a bunch held their noses but still did business with me and others are doing business but are not bragging me up to others and grow my businesses. I have to always strive to improve or the guy up the street will pass me by. The fact that more than half think improvement can be made shows that yes there may be room for improvement I should think.

There has been so much rude behavior on this thread. Drac and other moderators amongst the guilty and yet still some people get on and voice their opinions. Bob and the others that enjoy this forum, that have made some kind of investment in the forum whether financial or emotional should thank those people for caring enough to put themselves in the position of voicing their opinions even while knowing that it may be unpopular. That willingness to discuss things is what makes this forum an interesting place to visit and invest some time reading and contributing too.

There is no gun being put to my head, I can go elsewhereeasily. I choose to be here. I chose to participate in a discussion where I think that my asked for opinion might be heard and perhaps listened to as a responsibility to give back to Bob and the forum. Bob asked for my and your opinion with his poll as a means of improving this forum (and perhaps his other forums as well) and at least letting people give their ideas in public, only to have them mocked, call whiners, losers and to be told to go elsewhere by others including so called staff is rude, not only to Bob, but to every member of this forum. You folks are selling yourselves short and rather than striving for continued improvement you are shooting yourselves in you own foot and worse as a member of the forum you are shooting my foot as well. 

Bob, as we cannot seem to have an adult conversation about this subject, perhaps next time a poll with no comments allowed until after the vote. No trying to influence the vote, no trying to brow beat people into agreeing with whatever opinion. Perhaps Bob have a discussion for a week, then a poll (with a discussion black out) for a week, then a discussion to after to discuss the polls results. Or as owner of the board Bob grow a set LOL and do what you want, end of discussion after all this is not a democracy. 

Brian King


----------



## grydth

Brian, you'd hope the Forum as a whole would learn from this thread.

Some of our fellow critics I feel made a crucial error. This should have been a vote and debate over improvements to an ancillary function of this Forum. It seems to have been framed as an attack on the integrity of those who possess high reputation numbers, that there's a sinister daisy chain of inbred repping going on. You're not going to achieve change that way... and I don't think the personal accusations had merit.

But, then - the Forum Admin holds a poll and a thread...many reply in a critical fashion... and in some cases when a person disagreed in response to that invitation,  his own agents empty chamber pots over some of the dissenters and invite them to depart? There's a little disconnect there. The opportunity for self examination and review ought to be welcomed.

Nobody comes here originally to read reputation points; they come to exchange views on serious issues with fellow martial artists. It is not a healthy sign when we cannot debate relatively *minor* issues like this without the custard pies flyin'.  Both sides need to take some pause and meditation on this one.


----------



## LawDog

In posts #170 & #171 made were a few good points.


----------



## MJS

I'm in full agreement with Lawdog.  Posts 170 and 171 echo my thoughts and something that I said a few pages back.  The idea of this poll was to get feedback.  If you want to post suggestions then do so, but to piss and moan back and forth, back and forth is getting *nowhere!*  If people enjoy this forum as much as they say, then I'd think that making some positive contributions would be a much better route to take, than worrying about rep, who has the highest etc.  How old are we all here?  

As I have already said before, the Steering Board of this forum (Supermods and above) are also actively working on a solution.  This poll will be closing soon, and frankly, that time can't come soon enough.  We hope to, at that time, process all of this info. and make a decision.

In the meantime, instead of going back and forth, like tires spinning in the mud, why not go out to the various sections and make some posts?  Why not start some threads and discuss the Martial Arts?  I'm sure theres more to talk about than who has the highest rep.  

Mike


----------



## Drac

MJS said:


> In the meantime, instead of going back and forth, like tires spinning in the mud, why not go out to the various sections and make some posts? Why not start some threads and discuss the Martial Arts? I'm sure theres more to talk about than who has the highest rep


 
Bravo MJS, well said...


----------



## arnisador

exile said:


> don't you think that all these new six-cylinder models are just a marketing scheme?



Why does *Martialtalk *have more than one thread?

You seem to be taking me to task for expecting some degree of on-topic content, yet that is *MartialTalk*'s rule, not mine.

Of course not every "me too" derails a thread--it's more a cascade of them that has that effect, as people forget the subject and react to language (vice content) in the last few light posts--yet there's a reason you recognize "me too" as indicative of a type of post that often waters down a thread even if at other times it's encouraging. But if such natural thread drift is not a concern, why are off-topic warnings posted by the staff? The comparison to real-life conversations is exactly wrong. This is a different medium. Here's another wrong comparison: If you bought a book on motorcycle engine repair and on the second page the author drifted off on a tangent to helmet laws and never returned to the stated subject, would you be OK with that?



> what you (and Ella?) seem to be saying is, if you agree with any of the positions already stated, we don't wanna hear about it.



Speaking for myself, it's quite to the contrary. I thought people have made several good points that I hadn't considered. For example, I addressed a few of them here. I just seem to have a different understanding of what a _discussion _forum is than some others.


----------



## Kreth

Ella said:


> Why post something which has no new information or thoughts or anything? Kinda... a waste of space


Oh, the irony...


----------



## exile

arnisador said:


> Why does *Martialtalk *have more than one thread?
> 
> You seem to be taking me to task for expecting some degree of on-topic content, yet that is *MartialTalk*'s rule, not mine.



No, I'm not. What I'm questioning is your premise that `me too' threads are somehow intrinsically connected to thread drift. The post from you I queried take that as a starting point; I don't think you've made any kind of case for it, though. 



arnisador said:


> Of course not every "me too" derails a thread--it's more a cascade of them that has that effect, as people forget the subject and react to language (vice content) in the last few light posts--yet there's a reason you recognize "me too" as indicative of a type of post that often waters down a thread even if at other times it's encouraging.



_Any_ response&#8212;positive, negative, contentless, contentful&#8212;can go off-topic. My experience on MT is that a post with a lot of content is just as likely as a `light' post to derail a thread, because the more `meat' there is to the post, the more issues get put on the table that are very likely to spark a reader's off-topic response. Cite some MA authority on a certain point about kata, and you may very well get a `Yeah, but he also said that blah, blah, blah, which Motobu thought was idiotic' and then you get into this guy's problems with Choki Motobu and now you've reached escape velocity. There's nothing you've said which on the face of it shows that `me too' posts are any more likely to lead to thread drift than any other kind of post, so I just don't follow your argument here.




arnisador said:


> But if such natural thread drift is not a concern, why are off-topic warnings posted by the staff? The comparison to real-life conversations is exactly wrong. This is a different medium. Here's another wrong comparison: If you bought a book on motorcycle engine repair and on the second page the author drifted off on a tangent to helmet laws and never returned to the stated subject, would you be OK with that?



Wait a second: a manual is on the written page (roughly) what a lecture on a topic is in a verbal channel. You don't expect either a manual or a formal lecture to drift off-topic, because they are both monologue expositions of a certain limited content which the presenter knows, the reader or hearer doesn't and needs to learn about. That's why they've bought the manual or gone to the lecture. MT is a _discussion forum_. It has many of the same characteristics as a verbal discussion, because discussions, regardless of their medium, involve a number of interacting voices and perspectives, different interests and emphases, and so on. Two different media, but that difference is irrelevant so far as their common basis in a certain kind of human activity called conversation. You've not given any reason why a hearty `well done' or `me too' or `thanks!' are fine on the verbal channel but unacceptable on the written/electronic channel.




arnisador said:


> Speaking for myself, it's quite to the contrary. I thought people have made several good points that I hadn't considered. For example, I addressed a few of them here. I just seem to have a different understanding of what a _discussion _forum is than some others.



I'm not sure how this bears on the questions I have about what you're saying. Ella quoted from several posts where people were saying `I agree', in so many words, and then dismissed these posts as `wastes of space'. You followed up with the still stronger claim that such posts were not only `AOLer' products but were off topic, and now you still simply seem to be just _equating_ them with thread-drift bait. Unless you can show that such post _really do_ lead to off-topic posts that seriously derail a thread, in a way that any other type of post doesn't,  I just don't see the basis for your and Ella's extremely negative judgments about people's agreement posts.


----------



## arnisador

exile said:


> I just don't see the basis for your and Ella's extremely negative judgments about people's agreement posts.



To say that my opinion is extremely negative is not correct. These posts can be made in-thread or in-rep. I'm not suggesting anything like banning them in-thread. I'm suggesting that having the option of doing it in-rep. is beneficial. Personally, I'd typically be inclined to post mine there (remembering the 'USENET salute' problem), or in a similar system such as *Carol Kaur* outlined from KT; others will prefer to do it in-thread. Having the option of doing it via rep. is a good thing, in which regard I have always found the rep. system valuable.


----------



## shesulsa

arnisador said:


> But if such natural thread drift is not a concern, why are off-topic warnings posted by the staff? The comparison to real-life conversations is exactly wrong. This is a different medium. Here's another wrong comparison: If you bought a book on motorcycle engine repair and on the second page the author drifted off on a tangent to helmet laws and never returned to the stated subject, would you be OK with that?
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking for myself, it's quite to the contrary. I thought people have made several good points that I hadn't considered. For example, I addressed a few of them here. I just seem to have a different understanding of what a _discussion _forum is than some others.


Clearly your last statement is quite true, since the art of conversation is NOT a book by any means whatsoever.

And since having been a former administrator here you know how conversation ebbs and flows and how things work behind the scenes.  You also know, of course, that debating board policy is against the rules.


----------



## Drac

Speaking for myself I cannot wait until this thread get locked *PERMANENTLY....*


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Reading through this mess, I have to laugh.  Somehow I knew at some point, someone would suggest I get a "set". LOL!  I'm temped to post proof, but I'd have to suspend myself for a week for content violation.  :rofl:

Anyway, back to the cluster ****.

The rep system is one, of several dozen features we offer.  What this poll has told me is that most members either don't bother reading these surveys, or don't care either way on what we do with it.  A much smaller group wants to keep it the same, and a slightly smaller group wants some kind of change done.

I'm in a rock-hard place situation.
If I do nothing, we'll have this argument again.

If I do something, some folks won't like what I do.



Here's some technical info:
 We have plenty of server space and bandwidth to play with. No worries there.  Site is sluggish because we're so damn busy and all those database queeries eat up CPU cycles.

So, here is what we are going to do.
- The rep system will be restructured (once we work out all the details)
----new levels added.
----Top Rep Power capped (means you're power maxes out, but points will continue to accumulate)
----A partial reset will occur so that only rep for the past year is kept and counted. We will take a snapshot of the current ranks and post that. We will periodically do a full reset/archive to rebalance things.
----A note will be required with all rep.

It will still be private, and the rules of abuse will still be in effect. We will however be checking it more often for abuse, and infracting accordingly.  Please do not use it as an IM system, we have a PM system for the purpose of sending notes.

In addition, we will be installing the Thanks/No Thanks system shortly, so that people can show their appreciation or not.


I realize this is not a perfect solution, however I think it meets all sides in the middle.


----------



## Tez3

I started reading this thread with a vague opinion and finished it with no opinion whatsoever only a headache! I found myself agreeing with various opinion many at odds with each other. if I do vote, haven't decided yet, I think it will probably be for leaving it as it is.

When I started on this forum last year I was at home off sick long term from work with what may have been or not a nervous breakdown, the jury is still out on that. I was certainly very depressed and I found in MT somewhere I could chat to people, read interesting posts, learn no end of interesting things, have a laugh and basically be with like minded people at a time when i was stuck in the house. My post count is high because I did spend a lot of time here, I still use it to bribe myself to do the housework and whatever else needs doing! I say to myself if I get that pile of ironing done, washing whatever I can go onto MT for a while then on to the next job.

I have very much appreciated the rep comments and point I've gained here from people who I've come to respect. I've tried very hard when I've repped people to pass on what I've received, a pat on the back perhaps or a hey you aren't alone, or hey liked that it made me laugh ( horrid to make a funny and no one laughs!) I've repped people saying I appreciated their posts when in another thread I've argued with them.

I'm not saying MT saved my life but I think it certainly helped save my sanity, now I'm as normal as I ever was lol I appreciate this site for the insights, comments advice and arguments we have. I think, after all, my vote is for Bob to do what he thinks best.


----------



## Sapper6

Bob Hubbard said:


> Reading through this mess, I have to laugh. Somehow I knew at some point, someone would suggest I get a "set". LOL! I'm temped to post proof, but I'd have to suspend myself for a week for content violation. :rofl:
> 
> Anyway, back to the cluster ****.
> 
> The rep system is one, of several dozen features we offer. What this poll has told me is that most members either don't bother reading these surveys, or don't care either way on what we do with it. A much smaller group wants to keep it the same, and a slightly smaller group wants some kind of change done.
> 
> I'm in a rock-hard place situation.
> If I do nothing, we'll have this argument again.
> 
> If I do something, some folks won't like what I do.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's some technical info:
> We have plenty of server space and bandwidth to play with. No worries there. Site is sluggish because we're so damn busy and all those database queeries eat up CPU cycles.
> 
> So, here is what we are going to do.
> - The rep system will be restructured (once we work out all the details)
> ----new levels added.
> ----Top Rep Power capped (means you're power maxes out, but points will continue to accumulate)
> ----A partial reset will occur so that only rep for the past year is kept and counted. We will take a snapshot of the current ranks and post that. We will periodically do a full reset/archive to rebalance things.
> ----A note will be required with all rep.
> 
> It will still be private, and the rules of abuse will still be in effect. We will however be checking it more often for abuse, and infracting accordingly. Please do not use it as an IM system, we have a PM system for the purpose of sending notes.
> 
> In addition, we will be installing the Thanks/No Thanks system shortly, so that people can show their appreciation or not.
> 
> 
> I realize this is not a perfect solution, however I think it meets all sides in the middle.


 
again, I don't really see the need to restructure the system.  

why post a poll and then decide against it's majority?  seems counter-productive to me.

oh yeah, i got my first star today.  dammit i'm a sinner.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I'm leaving the poll open until it runs out.
The majority have no opinion. Get more of them to vote, and it becomes more of a mandate .


----------



## MBuzzy

Bob - For what its worth, I think that is a great solution.  Thanks!


----------



## Tez3

OK I voted, stay the same. Do you know how long it took me to understand the present rules............ anything with numbers in I'm stuck lol!

Bob, in the Royal Navy the expression 'growing a set' refers to growing a full beard lol! Sailors can be clean shaven or have a beard, nothing else.


Numbers I can't do but useless info I'm full of!


----------



## thardey

From the front page:


> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Welcome*[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]            to MartialTalk.com, one of the premier internet destinations for the            martial artist. MartialTalk is dedicated to the friendly discussion            of the martial arts, and the promotion, preservation and support of            both the arts and the artists that study them.[/FONT]​ [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We            have a wide variety of features that our 100,000+ visitors can experience            and enjoy each month.[/FONT]​ [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The            MartialTalk Forum feature seniors from many of the martial arts, including            Ed Parkers' Kenpo and Remy Presas' Modern Arnis active on our forum            daily. With over _*530,000*_ posts covering the            martial arts and more, there is an area for almost everyone to talk.[/FONT]​



That's the "meat" of the business. You keep this up, you keep the business productive. Reps, and thumbs, and points, and stars aren't why any of us are here. I think Bob's got the right idea - he knows a lot more about what's happening than we do, and this is a business, not a democracy. It's good to get feedback, and keep customers happy, but you can't please everyone, and still keep whatever focus you had to run the business in the first place.

One thing I was looking for in your post, Bob, was that you didn't mention if reps would no longer be anonymous, which I think would be a good idea.

This is the first, and only forum I have ever been involved with. To me, the rep system isn't out of control, because I have nothing to compare it to.

The only real inconvenience I see as it stands, is that once you get to a certain rep power, you get hesitant to rep people because you may think a post is good, but not worth jumping 3 levels, so you can only rep posts that are worth 3 yellows, which doesn't happen a lot, particularly when you have to wait for 20 of these before you can rep someone again. It just takes the fun out it.

Me, I'm in a great spot. My reps actually are worth some points, but not too many. 

Would it be possible to not so much cap the reps, as decide how how many points to rep them? Like instead of agree/disagree you can have negative, enjoyable, positive, and extremely positive? That way you can still play the game, but have a little control over you power?

I mean, after all, isn't controlling your power part of what being a black belt is all about?


----------



## Tez3

I haven't worked out what my repping someone does (dur!) Please don't tell me, I like it that way! that's probably the only comment I have, just repping someone because you like their post is enough.


----------



## thardey

In that case, Rep me! Rep me!

J/K


----------



## crushing

thardey said:


> In that case, Rep me! Rep me!
> 
> J/K


 
Positively or negatively?


----------



## thardey

crushing said:


> Positively or negatively?




Shhhh!


----------



## JBrainard

MBuzzy said:


> Bob - For what its worth, I think that is a great solution. Thanks!


 
Ditto.
Please note that I didn't rep MBuzzy for that...


----------



## Brian King

> Dear Mr. King,
> 
> Your post in this thread contains material which could be interpreted as a physical challenge against a fellow member of this forum.
> 
> Please take a moment to review the rules of the forum.
> 
> Challenge posts are not permitted on this forum, and could result in an immediate ban from this forum.
> 
> If you have any questions on this matter, please feel free to contact any of the senior staff of Martialtalk.com.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> -Ronald Shin
> -MT Moderator 


 
Thank you for the warning and I publicly apologize to any that may have felt physically challenged. I understand that those staff that wishes to call members names and besmirch their reputations, both the insulters and the persons being insulted, and the forums, should be reported to other staff and the matter will be settled behind closed doors. Fair enough. 


If you read this thread you see that I do get around http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45746
and I am not the only reader of this forum who travels and trains with many others. I have had the opportunity to meet a few MTers and hope to meet many others on the training floor. My reason for reminding Drac that we have met, reminding him of how I train (I train honestly), reminding him that his instructors all the way up to his grandmaster guy considered me unresponsive to their pain compliance techniques as none could make any of them work on me, reminding him that he knows that whining is not in my vocabulary. I was hoping that reminder might allow him to see that others, people he knows in real life, might be viewing his writing as boorish behavior and he might consider and return his professionalism to his writing. My comment of how we might again meet (since we last met in training environment I meant that we may again meet in a training environment) was to remind him and all of us that when we paint our insults and remarks with a broad brush we tend to get paint on others and not just our target. That the person you deliberately insulted and perhaps people you insulted unintentionally may also be your current or future training partners. I did this as a reminder to myself and hopefully to others to try to keep it civil and polite. These are not just names on a screen but are people that we are addressing. I and others post under our real names; we show up at training events, ours and those of other arts, we travel to across the United States (or whatever country we live in) and we often travel to other countries to train, many take the martial in martial arts seriously. Polite behavior is a necessity on our part because we can so easily be held accountable for boorish behavior. A reminder to others that what you say is being read by many and will last forever and you should use caution not to represent yourself poorly in a behavior that might prove embarrassing when you meet others during events such as the meet and greet and other training venues and you realize not only is the screen name a real person, but they are often very nice people and sometimes very skilled people. LOL it sucks to have to say aw shucks I didnt mean it face to face LOL realizing how what you wrote or said made you look like the south end of horse traveling north. Warrior societies have to be polite societies. It is good to be reminded of that now and then in my opinion. It is far to easy to forget the above while engaged in internet discussions. Threads may get locked, they will drift to the very bottom of the page, but what we write lasts or could last forever, and this too should be considered before hitting the send button IMHO.

Some might wonder at a you may be banned message be received so soon after the posting of a mini- rant. I wish to state publicly that I think it likely a coincidence and that some review or time spent between the original post and the warning message is likely customary and per their (staff) guidelines. I do not consider it an attempt at censor or payback even while I have recently negative repd some staff members for behavior I considered and do consider below their position as staff. The warning is being taken in good faith and made public in that good faith. I will continue to watch and monitor my behavior and welcome any corrections (grammar, spelling and any boorish or threatening behavior) in the future. I seek to improve myself hence my participation here (hopefully allowed to continue) and my continued participation in training events in real life where I look forward to meeting and training with many of you at future training events. 

The staff here all has a tough time consuming job and are human like the rest of us. None of us are perfect and all need little reminders now and then. On the whole I think most try to do a really good job and I am grateful for their participation and work.

This may have all been better said in private but I am an open and honest guy. I prefer any of my dirty laundry out in the open. I want to challenge myself into better and better writing and behavior. Letting people know that I may be on a bubble and possibly banned could very well give some the ammo needed for payback, if so it is karma and have fun, but it will also be my challenge to continue to write honestly knowing that I am under threat and watch and I am looking forward to the continued improvements that it hopefully brings. 




> Bob, in the Royal Navy the expression 'growing a set' refers to growing a full beard lol! Sailors can be clean shaven or have a beard, nothing else.


 
That is funny! I continue to be amazed and fascinated by our shared languages and the differences. It also shows the challenge of writing well and forgetting that you are assuming that others share your language and will understand what you say. It is just another of the many challenges of writing on an internationally read forum.




> Reading through this mess, I have to laugh. Somehow I knew at some point, someone would suggest I get a "set".


 
LOL leadership my friend, you arent a stranger to it, sorry it had to be me LOL




> LOL! I'm temped to post proof, but I'd have to suspend myself for a week for content violation. 


 
OMG, thanks for the restraint!!! Although might not some say that a beard could be an improvement?


Re-me too me too posts. Is there any concern on bandwidth? Just wondering the technical forum running stuff.



> 
> Originally Posted by *MBuzzy*
> _Bob - For what its worth, I think that is a great solution. Thanks!_
> 
> Ditto.


 
Me too

Brian King


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Brian,
  I'm not actively involved in the discussions concerning things with this thread due to my active involvement in the thread, (it's against our policies to both be active in and moderate in a thread).  That said, posts that are deemed a challenge nature usually result in a ban.  Keeps alot of internet keyboard warriors away.  Airing actions like this also runs afoul of the rules.  Just a heads up for ya.  For the record too, moderators who have commented in here have in most cases been posting as members, and those who haven't shown "good order" as it were, are being talked with just like any members here have been, by staff who aren't involved in the discussion.



As to me in a beard.....already there folks....already there.


----------



## Flying Crane

thardey said:


> Would it be possible to not so much cap the reps, as decide how how many points to rep them? Like instead of agree/disagree you can have negative, enjoyable, positive, and extremely positive? That way you can still play the game, but have a little control over you power?


 
Not a bad suggestion...


----------



## Tez3

I got seriously called out on a forum once by someone who disagreed with what I said, I accepted of course, it would have been rude not to. He said he would need a years training and a couple of MMA fights first so that it would have been fair. Someone else pointed out to him that I was a woman, he backed out saying he didn't know, this despite people using my name, Irene, calling me mum (soft lads fighters), using the word she etc. he went back to squashing frying pans, (honestly) and telling us that we had fibre optic muscles.
The guy was called 'savvy', he left us but we found him here, He actually mentions the thread where he called me out in his first post.They must have got fed up of trying to read his posts coz they banned him lol!  
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=569004 


_That was apropos nothing really, just wanted to share! _


----------



## arnisador

shesulsa said:


> You also know, of course, that debating board policy is against the rules.



Even in a thread dedicated to it in *Admin Announcements*, in which members' opinions were explicitly sought on a board policy/feature? In specific response--the one you quoted--to a detailed question asked me by a moderator (*Exile*)?

That rule doesn't make much sense here, does it?

(Incidentally, I don't believe we had that rule when I worked here--if we did, I don't recall ever enforcing it. I was prepared to justify my actions.)


----------



## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, here is what we are going to do.
> - The rep system will be restructured (once we work out all the details)
> ----new levels added.
> ----Top Rep Power capped (means you're power maxes out, but points will continue to accumulate)
> ----A partial reset will occur so that only rep for the past year is kept and counted. We will take a snapshot of the current ranks and post that. We will periodically do a full reset/archive to rebalance things.
> ----A note will be required with all rep.
> 
> It will still be private, and the rules of abuse will still be in effect. We will however be checking it more often for abuse, and infracting accordingly.  Please do not use it as an IM system, we have a PM system for the purpose of sending notes.
> 
> In addition, we will be installing the Thanks/No Thanks system shortly, so that people can show their appreciation or not.



Seems like a reasonable solution to a clearly intractable problem. Thanks for listening!



> I realize this is not a perfect solution, however I think it meets all sides in the middle.



This has always been a strength of Kaith's--a compromise that leaves all sides fairly happy, unlike most compromises that leave no sides happy.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I've been asked why make any changes when the majority doesn't want them.  

Here's the problem.  Right now, points continue to add up. Eventually, we will have people able to rep folks and add 12 stars in 1 shot. Now, with that kind of power, things stop being any fun, or of any real value.

For the system to have any value, it's got to scale properly, and not be subject to such hugh lopsidedness.

For it to be fun, it also has to be fair.  As it is, it's dramatically unfair.  

While I know people are going to be upset to lose their army of stars and ability to smite dragons with a simple breath, things need to be brought back into perspective.

My intent is to do these resets annually, post the results and maybe do something special for the top person.

Folks, the systems supposed to be here as a fun addition, and to be honest, it lost the fun a long time ago for me, and alot of folks. I want to put that fun back in, and see more people enjoying it.

The catch is, is to keep what the folks who currently are in favor of keeping things unchanged intact while addressing the concerns of those who want something changed.  I think by doing these resets, we can meet most of the concerns, and make it a fun part of the site again.


----------



## Kacey

As one of the people with an "army of stars", I have to say that comments that come with the rep are worth more to me than the visual.  Sure, I think there needs to be some type of visual, so that others can see who is receiving what - but I have absolutely no problem with scaling it back, topping it out, or something similar.  It's nice to be recognized for positive contributions - but the rep power is starting to grow exponentially, and I think an arithmatic or even geometric progression would be much more appropriate.


----------



## bluemtn

Kacey said:


> As one of the people with an "army of stars", I have to say that comments that come with the rep are worth more to me than the visual. Sure, I think there needs to be some type of visual, so that others can see who is receiving what - but I have absolutely no problem with scaling it back, topping it out, or something similar. It's nice to be recognized for positive contributions - but the rep power is starting to grow exponentially, and I think an arithmatic or even geometric progression would be much more appropriate.


 

I'm with Kacey.  I like the rep system, but I think there should be a place where something tops out...


----------



## Tez3

I vote for Bob doing what he thinks best. Why? I like things as they are because that's how I've always known it but as people who know better than I have pointed out there are some problems so the best way forward is one that Bob is happy with for a start and then I think we'll also be happy.
I agree with Kacey, that the stars are nice but I too treasure the comments far more. I'm disappointed that there's some who have turned it into an argument when it should be a discussion. I put my silly post up, which is true btw, for a bit of light relief but also if you click on the link, it shows a rather strange forum which without being nasty, is boring, hard to read and with a very odd rep system. I don't want that here!


----------



## Guro Harold

Don't mess with success!

I voted to leave the system as is.

The problem of a reset is that it is a deletion of someone's work or recognition of someone's efforts so I am against that.

It's like taking away thank-you(s).


----------



## jks9199

Kacey said:


> As one of the people with an "army of stars", I have to say that comments that come with the rep are worth more to me than the visual. Sure, I think there needs to be some type of visual, so that others can see who is receiving what - but I have absolutely no problem with scaling it back, topping it out, or something similar. It's nice to be recognized for positive contributions - but the rep power is starting to grow exponentially, and I think an arithmatic or even geometric progression would be much more appropriate.


 
I agree with this... pretty much entirely.  And with Bob's solution & reasoning.

Rep is a loose indicator of who's posting well; whether that's constructively, accurately, voluably, or simply amusingly -- the folks with more rep tend to be the posters who I enjoy reading.  It's not a guarantee or substitute for critical reading; there are some highly repped posters that I think don't always reason their way out of a paperbag, and others who are clearly highly, highly knowledgable experts but just don't get a lot rep, for reasons previously discussed.


----------



## CoryKS

What's funny about this thread is that if you replace "rep" with "wealth", you have pretty much the same argument regarding free market vs. government regulation, with some feeling that anyone should be able to rep anyone else for any reason and others who believe that the system is unfair/broken/inflated/whatever.  It'd be interesting to see which side the posters who have previously commented on the one argument have lined up in this one.


----------



## terryl965

Bob Hubbard said:


> I've been asked why make any changes when the majority doesn't want them.
> 
> Here's the problem. Right now, points continue to add up. Eventually, we will have people able to rep folks and add 12 stars in 1 shot. Now, with that kind of power, things stop being any fun, or of any real value.
> 
> For the system to have any value, it's got to scale properly, and not be subject to such hugh lopsidedness.
> 
> For it to be fun, it also has to be fair. As it is, it's dramatically unfair.
> 
> While I know people are going to be upset to lose their army of stars and ability to smite dragons with a simple breath, things need to be brought back into perspective.
> 
> My intent is to do these resets annually, post the results and maybe do something special for the top person.
> 
> Folks, the systems supposed to be here as a fun addition, and to be honest, it lost the fun a long time ago for me, and alot of folks. I want to put that fun back in, and see more people enjoying it.
> 
> The catch is, is to keep what the folks who currently are in favor of keeping things unchanged intact while addressing the concerns of those who want something changed. I think by doing these resets, we can meet most of the concerns, and make it a fun part of the site again.


 

Bob I understand your position here, I really do. But and there is always a but so here it is why did we do a vote system to see what the majority wanted, if in the end it really did not matter?

Please do not think I'm bitching here but just asking and for the record you are right in your assessment with the rep system.


----------



## Blotan Hunka

CoryKS said:


> What's funny about this thread is that if you replace "rep" with "wealth", you have pretty much the same argument regarding free market vs. government regulation, with some feeling that anyone should be able to rep anyone else for any reason and others who believe that the system is unfair/broken/inflated/whatever. It'd be interesting to see which side the posters who have previously commented on the one argument have lined up in this one.


 

Perhaps we should take some rep from the "wealthy" and redistribute it to the less "rep fortunate". Lol

But then Bob would have to open up an office where people would have to stand in line for hours and fill out numerous applications for "rep welfare".


----------



## Kacey

terryl965 said:


> Bob I understand your position here, I really do. But and there is always a but so here it is why did we do a vote system to see what the majority wanted, if in the end it really did not matter?
> 
> Please do not think I'm bitching here but just asking and for the record you are right in your assessment with the rep system.



Not to speak for Bob... but Bob owns the site, and he can do whatever he wants.  He chose to ask for input - but the decision is up to him.  The discussion brought up some interesting points, and appears - to me at least - to be more indicative of what members want than a strict interpretation of who voted for what.

If I'm off base here, Bob, please correct me.


----------



## terryl965

Kacey said:


> Not to speak for Bob... but Bob owns the site, and he can do whatever he wants. He chose to ask for input - but the decision is up to him. The discussion brought up some interesting points, and appears - to me at least - to be more indicative of what members want than a strict interpretation of who voted for what.
> 
> If I'm off base here, Bob, please correct me.


 

Kacey I agree with you, but I have always been the one when I have a question to just ask it and go on. Bob is a wonderful person, better in personj and I have grown to except things around here. It was just an observation by me. 
As always thank you for the input and I for one did not believe you was off base with any part of your statement.
Terry


----------



## Guro Harold

While I agree that Bob owns the site, we as members are the customers and customer feedback and meeting the customer's needs are essential.

That is one of the reasons why I appreciate when Bob provides avenues of communication when it comes to major decisions concerning the board.


----------



## MBuzzy

With respect to all....I personally believe that Bob did exactly what this thread was intended to do.  We gathered a numerical vote, but backed it with a wealth of opinions and suggestions from the members.  The final solution is a good melding of all of these.  If you go back through and read the thread from the beginning, the decided upon solution has elements of what everyone wants and seems to me to be a very good compromise.

Being in frequent leadership positions in work, I know all about trying to please the masses.  From that perspective, it is a difficult decision on the leader's behalf to be the one to make the decision...I'm sure that Bob did not come to it lightly and has clearly listened to the adivce and opinions of his members.  Afterall, it is completely within his perogative to say "Screw you guys, we're just trashing it completely."


----------



## Kacey

MBuzzy said:


> With respect to all....I personally believe that Bob did exactly what this thread was intended to do.  We gathered a numerical vote, but backed it with a wealth of opinions and suggestions from the members.  The final solution is a good melding of all of these.  If you go back through and read the thread from the beginning, the decided upon solution has elements of what everyone wants and seems to me to be a very good compromise.
> 
> Being in frequent leadership positions in work, I know all about trying to please the masses.  From that perspective, it is a difficult decision on the leader's behalf to be the one to make the decision...I'm sure that Bob did not come to it lightly and has clearly listened to the adivce and opinions of his members.  Afterall, it is completely within his perogative to say "Screw you guys, we're just trashing it completely."



That's pretty much what I meant - I was getting ready to leave for class and was typing pretty fast; it looks to me, at least, like Bob has read and heeded all of the comments on this thread, and is doing his best to reach compromise that the majority of members will be, if not happy, then content with.

In any group the size of MT (listed, at the moment I type this, as having 6,609 members), especially a group as diverse as MT, there's not going to be a 100% consensus on much of anything.  That Bob has spent the time and effort to comb through all of the comments in this thread and come up with a compromise that addresses so many of those comments is just another reason why this board is the best!


----------



## grydth

Ella said:


> Not what I meant.
> 
> When I say someone may not want to negatively rep a mod or admin, for fear of wrath, I don't mean that they (the admin or mod) would actually do anything.
> 
> Say I disagree with a post you have written, negative rep you, and reply to your post. Then you negatively rep me back. I've made your rep points go down by 90 and you've put me in the red.
> 
> Whether or not you actually DO it isn't my point. being able to single-handedly put someone in the red isn't a good thing. It would make me think twice about disagreeing with a moderator or admin.
> 
> For that matter, an average user such as myself could put a newbie in the red if they made one off color remark.



So... Ella, who essentially started this furor is now a banned user. Apparently a discovery was made that she was a reincarnation of a previously exorcised individual(s).

Not to question Bob's call in the least, but : Can any details be released as to who Ella really was? 

Please, not the Soke or Ashida!


----------



## shesulsa

grydth said:


> So... Ella, who essentially started this furor is now a banned user. Apparently a discovery was made that she was a reincarnation of a previously exorcised individual(s).
> 
> Not to question Bob's call in the least, but : Can any details be released as to who Ella really was?
> 
> Please, not the Soke or Ashida!


Though I'm not Bob, I can say that all staff on MartialTalk are bound by a Non-Disclosure Agreement which we take and enforce quite seriously.  One of the features you all enjoy with this is that we do not release the personal information you provide to us upon registration to ANYONE.  Staff who violate the agreement or abuse their privileges are managed aggressively.

So we will not reveal the prior identity of the now-banned Ella.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

On making the determination, we offered a chance to prove conclusively that she was in fact someone else. Our offer was turned down. 

But, we can't release that information unfortunately.


----------



## Rich Parsons

shesulsa said:


> Though I'm not Bob, I can say that all staff on MartialTalk are bound by a Non-Disclosure Agreement which we take and enforce quite seriously. One of the features you all enjoy with this is that we do not release the personal information you provide to us upon registration to ANYONE. Staff who violate the agreement or abuse their privileges are managed aggressively.
> 
> So we will not reveal the prior identity of the now-banned Ella.





Bob Hubbard said:


> On making the determination, we offered a chance to prove conclusively that she was in fact someone else. Our offer was turned down.
> 
> But, we can't release that information unfortunately.



I fully understand the Non-disclosure agreement and as an ex-staff am still bound by it. 

Yet, I will let my imagination run wild on who it was.


----------



## seninoniwashi

I'm still trying to figure it out; I haven't been here very long.

I received a rep point in my first week, then lost it a few weeks ago. Not sure if I said something to offend someone or what, if that was the case I wish they would have said something 

Are rep points temporary?


----------



## Kacey

seninoniwashi said:


> I'm still trying to figure it out; I haven't been here very long.
> 
> I received a rep point in my first week, then lost it a few weeks ago. Not sure if I said something to offend someone or what, if that was the case I wish they would have said something
> 
> Are rep points temporary?



Nope.  Click on UserCP on the left of the blue bar along the top of each page - that will show you your rep given and received, positive and negative, along with any comments made.


----------



## seninoniwashi

Kacey said:


> Nope. Click on UserCP on the left of the blue bar along the top of each page - that will show you your rep given and received, positive and negative, along with any comments made.


 
Yeah, I dug around in there and just see where I gained the point, but nothing was mentioned as to how I lost one.


----------



## Kacey

seninoniwashi said:


> Yeah, I dug around in there and just see where I gained the point, but nothing was mentioned as to how I lost one.



Green dots by the reputation are positive; red dots are negative - also, for the first 30 minutes after giving rep, it can be reversed by the giver; either of the latter 2 could account for losing points.


----------



## shesulsa

seninoniwashi said:


> Yeah, I dug around in there and just see where I gained the point, but nothing was mentioned as to how I lost one.


You do not appear to have lost one at all.  Try looking at your UserCP and *expanding* the view for the block which reads "Latest Reputation Received."


----------



## jks9199

They do "fall of the chart" after awhile, I think, as well.

You don't lose the rep -- just the message that went with it.


----------



## Carol

jks9199 said:


> They do "fall of the chart" after awhile, I think, as well.
> 
> You don't lose the rep -- just the message that went with it.



Yup.  The buffer that holds the comments only displays the last 15 comments.  However once the change is made to one's rep score, the change - positive or negative - is permanent.


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## seninoniwashi

oki, making sense now. I bet it's just as Kacey said with the point being taken back after being given.

Thanks all for the quick response!


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