# Resolved: Taekwondo is Inherently Bad for Your Body



## dancingalone

Just thought I would stir up the pot.  Your thoughts?  Is TKD any more debilitating on your body with long term practice than other martial art, given its focus on kicking?  

I suspect the answer depends on the type of kicks you practice, but I'll post my thoughts later after hopefully a few of you reply.


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## clfsean

dancingalone said:


> Just thought I would stir up the pot.  Your thoughts?  Is TKD any more debilitating on your body with long term practice than other martial art, given its focus on kicking?
> 
> I suspect the answer depends on the type of kicks you practice, but I'll post my thoughts later after hopefully a few of you reply.



My hips would agree...


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## ATC

I would say that the high impact techniques such as jumping kicks and some turning kicks could be bad for the knees but that would be about it.

Proper technique with all the other kicks should not be a problem. I think that with as much leg work as we do if you limit the jumping kicks (older people and people with bad knees) you may actually make the muscles around the knees and joints stronger, thus helping the joints.

I know I put around 2 inches of muscle on my thighs since starting TKD. And my kids legs look great.


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## dortiz

I always thought so but then I know so many friends that have knee problems that never studied.
In the end I think I ended up with the same pains but a better ability to train through them and condition myself to work around it.

Dave O.


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## terryl965

After 30 years I would have to say yes it does, but that does not change the fact that I love the Art and I would do it all over again if need be.


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## dancingalone

I have a fondness for kicking stemming from my days in TKD... I believe over-practice helped contribute to my bulging disk problem, because I did not take proper care to balance out my strength in my core and my lower and upper back in order to distribute the shock of kicking evenly across my body.  

Where is TKD on the "rough on your body" scale compared to arts like wing chun or aikido?  You really don't hear about wing chun masters having to quit practicing, but it seems stories about taekwondoists with bad hips and knees are legion.


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## punisher73

I'll have to try and find the article, but it discussed that the human hip is not designed to do many of the kicks found in alot of MA styles (TKD included).

This is why MANY of the people who study long term have hip problems as well as knee problems.  Look at how many "old masters" have hip replacements.


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## clfsean

dancingalone said:


> Where is TKD on the "rough on your body" scale compared to arts like wing chun or aikido?  You really don't hear about wing chun masters having to quit practicing, but it seems stories about taekwondoists with bad hips and knees are legion.



Wing Chun isn't that rough on a body as far as physical requirements to perform the techniques of the style. 

Aikido... not too sure. Tried it & didn't like it early on so no real experience base there, but I always see "older" folks doing & rolling, so there's gotta be something there...


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## Twin Fist

the unique mechanics of the korean sidekick are VERY bad for your hips.

most of the guys that came up in the 60's are either crippled up now, or they switched back to the japanese side kick


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## dancingalone

It's hard to blame it on bad technique... Guys like He Il Cho and even (chuckling at incoming Chuck Norris jokes) Chuck Norris have had hip replacement surgeries, and surely they're as fine technicians as anyone out there, although Norris probably classifies himself as a tang soo do person.


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## Manny

Well, let me tell you the aikido sensei I know is well over 60 years old, he was a very good karateka but he realized that over the years his karate will not be as good as the old days and his body can't reaction as if he was 20 or 30 years old so he started aikido in the 90's and he hes quite good.

Myself, when I was a teen I was a good taekwondoing and could di most of the kicks, now with 41 and a little bacon I can not perform some kicks (the more dificult ones) so that's why I stay with the basics, you know front kick,roundhouse kick, side kick,back kick,turning back kick.

Yes, TKD over the years can be rough to your body,knees,joints,etc, but so does running for example.

Manny


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## SJON

The problem as I see it is that when I was a beginner I didn't know - among other things - how to tense the quads to protect the knee during all those 1000's of kicks against thin air. Now that I do know, it's too late.

I don't really do many high or jumping kicks any more, but I can see how they would be bad for the hips too.


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## clfsean

SJON said:


> The problem as I see it is that when I was a beginner I didn't know - among other things - how to tense the quads to protect the knee during all those 1000's of kicks against thin air. Now that I do know, it's too late.



and it only takes *1* to cost thousands of dollars in surgery, drs fees, pt fees, etc... and a year or so off your normal training to teach you that... 

... ask me how I know... I double dog dare ya... :headbangin::jaw-dropping::headbangin::xtrmshock


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## Touch Of Death

dancingalone said:


> Just thought I would stir up the pot. Your thoughts? Is TKD any more debilitating on your body with long term practice than other martial art, given its focus on kicking?
> 
> I suspect the answer depends on the type of kicks you practice, but I'll post my thoughts later after hopefully a few of you reply.


I'm going to have to say yes. There is a quote stating "just bcause you can do something doesn't mean you should. A lot of kicking actions can damage your body. Even now there is thread on this forum about sore hips from kicking (TKD). Kicks should not cause you pain.
Sean


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## terryl965

clfsean said:


> and it only takes *1* to cost thousands of dollars in surgery, drs fees, pt fees, etc... and a year or so off your normal training to teach you that...
> 
> ... ask me how I know... I double dog dare ya... :headbangin::jaw-dropping::headbangin::xtrmshock


 
OK how do you know?


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## Xue Sheng

Wow... until I read this I was actually missing my old TKD days 

Lord know I never got hurt doing CMA....much


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## terryl965

So is alcohol, cigars and woman but we still do most of this even when the doctor says leave it alone.


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## clfsean

terryl965 said:


> OK how do you know?



Well... SINCE you asked... 

Cutting to the chase & minimizing soap boxing (& dramatazation) ... practicing kicks in the air without a solid target to impact... or a partner that won't flinch... is bad news. 

It cost me a right leg hyper extension that pulled everything out of my right knee capsule & put it through the meat grinder (literally) called my tibia & fibia when it was all violently sucked back into place just because the ligaments wouldn't stretch anymore.


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## clfsean

terryl965 said:


> So is alcohol, cigars and woman but we still do most of this even when the doctor says leave it alone.



Seriously... what do drs know?? 

Alcohol keeps the blood thin (good to prevent unwanted clots)
Cigars keeps the blood sucking bugs away (go to prevent malaria, etc...)
Women... well... they might have something there if they're basing their opinion on timing


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## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> Well... SINCE you asked...
> 
> Cutting to the chase & minimizing soap boxing (& dramatazation) ... practicing kicks in the air without a solid target to impact... or a partner that won't flinch... is bad news.
> 
> It cost me a right leg hyper extension that pulled everything out of my right knee capsule & put it through the meat grinder (literally) called my tibia & fibia when it was all violently sucked back into place just because the ligaments wouldn't stretch anymore.


 
Well there is one thing I can be thankful to my first sifu more (actually there is more than one thing). I was practicing kicks one day, based on my previous TKD training and he told me to stop before I hurt myself and went on to explain exactly how hurt that I would be.... haven't done that since... you see CMA is safer


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## Omar B

I think the positives outweigh the negatives.  Sure it's a pounding on your joints, but you can put lots of muscle too which helps greatly.  At 16 I broke my knee and the reason I got back full range of motion and power in there is because of training.  Our bodies wear out, I think it's better to have a healthy body that wears out because it'll take the repairs better than an unhealthy one.

Besides, there are many ways to train without the harsh snapping motions.  For years along with my Seido training I also did Choi Kwang Do which is a style developed specifically to combat the join jarring.  It's very circular, flowing and quite frankly it's my second favorite style ever.


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## dancingalone

Omar B said:


> I also did Choi Kwang Do which is a style developed specifically to combat the join jarring.  It's very circular, flowing and quite frankly it's my second favorite style ever.



Until you run out of money.    I kid, I kid.


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## Flying Crane

Seems like there are a couple of threads out right now discussing aspects of this topic.  

I've seen people mention stretching and strength training to minimize injury (a practice I would agree with), as well as more drastic measures like painkillers (both over-the-counter and prescriptions) cortisone shots, and surgeries to remove/repair/replace damaged body parts.

What strikes me is this, and this is in part a question: my impression is that even after the drastic measures are taken, I am assuming that people are going back to continue with the very methods that brought about their problems in the first place.  Is this what people are doing?  Are they using these methods to just keep on doing what injured them in the first place?

If the very methodology is what is causing this kind of injury, why don't people step back and take a closer look at what's going on and make some changes?

I'm not talking about a sparring injury or something.  I'm talking about the repeated practices and methods of training that are just grinding down and wearing out body parts far more quickly than they ought to.  Don't these injuries raise red flags in people's minds, and cause them to question what's happening and how much worse it might get down the road?

I'm now 38 years old and I've been training since age 13.  I continue with a very rigorous training schedule, and I've never yet had a surgery from a training injury.  It's rare that I ever need to take an over-the-counter painkiller due to training, and I've never taken a prescription painkiller or had cortisone shots.  I stretch regularly and do some moderate strength training, and I just try to train in smart ways that won't cause me injury, either acutely or gradually leading up to something worse.

I've had times when I'd practiced a lot of high kicks, but I don't do a lot of that anymore.  I try to be careful when doing any kind of kicks so I don't traumatize my knees or hips or ankles or back.  

But good lord, if I ended up with surgery or cortisone shots or prescription medications to deal with long-term gradual injury due simply to the methods I used in training, I think I'd start looking for a different method.  After getting out of surgery, I sure as hell wouldn't go back to doing the same thing that brought me into surgery in the first place.

train smart, folks.


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## dancingalone

But that's the problem, Michael.  A large part of what is now considered canon tae kwon do, namely the high flying kicks added in the sixties, is actually toxic to one's longevity in the art.


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## terryl965

clfsean said:


> Well... SINCE you asked...
> 
> Cutting to the chase & minimizing soap boxing (& dramatazation) ... practicing kicks in the air without a solid target to impact... or a partner that won't flinch... is bad news.
> 
> It cost me a right leg hyper extension that pulled everything out of my right knee capsule & put it through the meat grinder (literally) called my tibia & fibia when it was all violently sucked back into place just because the ligaments wouldn't stretch anymore.


 
Sorry to hear that clfsean.


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## Flying Crane

dancingalone said:


> But that's the problem, Michael. A large part of what is now considered canon tae kwon do, namely the high flying kicks added in the sixties, is actually toxic to one's longevity in the art.


 
I would say that perhaps a bigger problem is simply the standing kicks that are done very high, particularly those that raise to the side like roundhouse and side kicks.  I think the hip really doesn't like to flex that far, to get those kicks up so high.  For a front kick, it's not so bad, but those side and roundhouse kicks just destroy the hips when done high.

I can certainly see inherent problems with the jumping and flying kicks as well.  Bad landings as well as strange hip stresses and such.

But these problems aren't only found in the realm of TKD.  I've seen it in plenty of other arts as well.  Not specifically high kicks, but simply bad practice methods.  Methods that are almost guaranteed to bring about injury at some point, because they stress the knee or the hip or the ankle, or back, or shoulder or neck in strange ways.  It's just a matter of time before the cartilege wears thin or tears, and then the problems become real.


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> I would say that perhaps a bigger problem is simply the standing kicks that are done very high, particularly those that raise to the side like roundhouse and side kicks. I think the hip really doesn't like to flex that far, to get those kicks up so high. For a front kick, it's not so bad, but those side and roundhouse kicks just destroy the hips when done high.
> 
> I can certainly see inherent problems with the jumping and flying kicks as well. Bad landings as well as strange hip stresses and such.
> 
> But these problems aren't only found in the realm of TKD. I've seen it in plenty of other arts as well. Not specifically high kicks, but simply bad practice methods. Methods that are almost guaranteed to bring about injury at some point, because they stress the knee or the hip or the ankle, or back, or shoulder or neck in strange ways. It's just a matter of time before the cartilege wears thin or tears, and then the problems become real.


 
See Contemporary Wushu (but you already know that)


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> See Contemporary Wushu (but you already know that)


 
Yup!!


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## Omar B

dancingalone said:


> Until you run out of money.    I kid, I kid.



I've heard that stuff before.  I always just say my experience with the art was wholly different.  The training was very alive, we sparred, a lot of what people complain about with the art was just not present.  But then our coach also taught Goju so though were were learning CKD in the class it was still taught in a very Japanese way.


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## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> Well there is one thing I can be thankful to my first sifu more (actually there is more than one thing). I was practicing kicks one day, based on my previous TKD training and he told me to stop before I hurt myself and went on to explain exactly how hurt that I would be.... haven't done that since... you see CMA is safer



Yeah... I didn't learn that until about 8 years post surgery... but it's funny... that's I teach TKD now.


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## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> Yeah... I didn't learn that until about 8 years post surgery... but it's funny... that's I teach TKD now.


 
To be honest I am surprised I got through TKD with out a knee issue.

But in CMA I have not had the same stress on my knees and it is by far MUCH safe... just as long as you don't count 2 broken ankles, a few torn ligaments and assorted other injuries that is. Well... ok... the Northern Wu form bothered my knees... but that doesn't count either 

I am glad that you were able to recover and get back to MA and teaching TKD now I imagine you alert your students to the potential problems due to painful experience


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## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> To be honest I am surprised I got through TKD with out a knee issue.
> 
> But in CMA I have not had the same stress on my knees and it is by far MUCH safe... just as long as you don't count 2 broken ankles, a few torn ligaments and assorted other injuries that is. Well... ok... the Northern Wu form bothered my knees... but that doesn't count either
> 
> I am glad that you were able to recover and get back to MA and teaching TKD now I imagine you alert your students to the potential problems due to painful experience



Indeed... I do bring a certain perspective to the table & outlook to the technique that's unique to CMA & hitting things.


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## Miles

I think your practice of TKD has to change as you get older.  My focus 30 yrs ago was sparring, sparring, sparring.  As I got older, I started to enjoy poomsae.

Another thing to consider is that we did stuff in the old days which was inherently bad for knees, hips, lower backs: stuff like duck walks, barefoot runs on concrete (snow nothwithstanding), and failure to do weight-training or stretching properly(bounce, bounce, bounce, rip).  Over time, I think those practices have been worse for the body than has TKD.


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## Kacey

I know more people who don't practice a martial art who have had hip or knees replaced than those who do practice a martial art - most of them runners.

I do know that TKD is the only form of exercise I've ever been able to stick with - and that, surely, means I am better off practicing TKD on a regular basis than not exercising... especially given that most long-term physical activities have their own risks.


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## Marginal

Whether or not it's debilitating depends on the kicks. If you get your hips in the right place, there's not really any major movement outside of your natural range of motion. 

Really, you have front kicks which shouldn't be doing much of anything to your hip joint. Just an exaggerated stair climbing kind of motion. 

Side and back kicks both rely on a similar position if they're done properly. You've just transposed the front kick position. 

Turning/roundhouse kicks (done right) also don't work against the hip. 

Worst for me are twisting kicks and defensive hooking kicks. Both seem designed to flat out abuse the hip for minimal returns. (Don't really train either much as a result.)

If you're doing kicks that are constantly causing your leg to grind into your hip, not rotating your supporting leg etc, you'll probably suffer damage if you keep it up.


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## rmclain

This is exactly why Grandmaster Kim Soo created the Chayon-Ryu teaching method in 1968 and has continuously refined it since. Though I am surprised more people haven't, out of necessity, started investigating better methods of training, as Flying Crane mentions below, they probably did so since they didn't know any other way than to follow what their instructor did.

GM Kim Soo's early days (in Amercia) students (several are still training with him) report than back then the young Master Kim Soo (then 39 years of age), used to have lower back problems so badly that he had to lean against a chair or wall after teaching for more than a few minutes. He also had digestive troubles. This was typical of anyone that trained the old ways according to him (he had trained for 17 years by this point). He says that in Korea it was a joke that if you trained in MA for too long, you would be a human skeleton.

Now, Chayon-Ryu has 41 years of research as a teaching method (preserving the techniques taught by GM Kim Soo's teachers). This is probably why so many adults and students over 40 years of age come to Chayon-Ryu. Less chance of injuring themselves in training.  Some of his students have done research as to why this method is safer for the human body in kinesiology and physics depts.

Certainly someone else I haven't heard of has done this as well?

R. McLain




Flying Crane said:


> Seems like there are a couple of threads out right now discussing aspects of this topic.
> 
> I've seen people mention stretching and strength training to minimize injury (a practice I would agree with), as well as more drastic measures like painkillers (both over-the-counter and prescriptions) cortisone shots, and surgeries to remove/repair/replace damaged body parts.
> 
> What strikes me is this, and this is in part a question: my impression is that even after the drastic measures are taken, I am assuming that people are going back to continue with the very methods that brought about their problems in the first place. Is this what people are doing? Are they using these methods to just keep on doing what injured them in the first place?
> 
> If the very methodology is what is causing this kind of injury, why don't people step back and take a closer look at what's going on and make some changes?
> 
> I'm not talking about a sparring injury or something. I'm talking about the repeated practices and methods of training that are just grinding down and wearing out body parts far more quickly than they ought to. Don't these injuries raise red flags in people's minds, and cause them to question what's happening and how much worse it might get down the road?


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## dancingalone

rmclain said:


> Now, Chayon-Ryu has 41 years of research as a teaching method (preserving the techniques taught by GM Kim Soo's teachers). This is probably why so many adults and students over 40 years of age come to Chayon-Ryu. Less chance of injuring themselves in training.  Some of his students have done research as to why this method is safer for the human body in kinesiology and physics depts.
> 
> R. McLain



Mr. McClain, does Chayon-ryu teach the various jumping and flying kicks present in many tae kwon do systems?  How high do your students typically kick on standard fare like the front, round house, and side kicks?


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## rmclain

dancingalone said:


> Mr. McClain, does Chayon-ryu teach the various jumping and flying kicks present in many tae kwon do systems? How high do your students typically kick on standard fare like the front, round house, and side kicks?


 
For fundamental kicks (white belt level), the front kick and roundhouse are practiced at 2 main levels (abdomen and head) and the front-running kick is practiced mostly at abdomen level. The front-running kick is a jumping kick (similar to the kick used in the end fight in karate kid #1), but at white belt is used mostly for distance instead of height. The side kick is abdomen level, though higher-ranked students sometimes kick head level during sparring and forms.

Flying side kick is a breaking requrement for 6th Gup (Green belt in CYR) students.

R. McLain


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## dancingalone

Thanks.  Could you perhaps explain a bit on how chayon-ryu mitigates the shocking aspects of twisting one's hips while kick as well as during landing?

It's my belief that tae kwon do or any striking art for that matter can be a healthy long term activity if one restrains oneself to grounded waist level kicks against a target that offers resistance such as a heavy bag.  I'd like to reconcile this belief against people who may have other experiences.


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## Miles

dancingalone said:


> It's my belief that tae kwon do or any striking art for that matter can be a healthy long term activity if one restrains oneself to grounded waist level kicks against a target that offers resistance such as a heavy bag.


 
Excellent point!  When you are doing full-power techniques to full-extension and there is no resistance, then you are going to have problems.  In the old days, we did lots of reps in the air.  Today, the only time we don't hit something is when we are doing poomsae.


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## Emadis

I have been in MA since 1963 and have practiced a number of martial arts, from Goju-ryu (karate), judo, aikido, taekwondo, Chen taichichuan, and tangsoodo (karate).  I am a tangsoodo master instructor and I am now 62 years old.  I can tell you without reservation that the modern, athletic kicking style for which taekwondo is known is fine for young people, but it will do damage to your body over an extended period of time.   Incidentally, this kicking style (with the hip extension, emphasis on thrusting movement, and large hip rotation) began in Japan in the 1930s with Gigo Funakoshi (the son of Gichin Funakoshi) and influenced his many followers, including his Korean students who developed the approach to a great degree in Korea.  So the damage that you see from this kind of kicking can be seen in many Japanese and Korean styles, and with anyone (including the Chinese styles) that have incorporated this athletic, power-driven style of kicking.  I have been teaching this type of kicking for over 30 years and I have seen the results of it with myself and many of my peers/friends in the MA community.  Many have had hip replacements, knee surgeries, etc.  However, and this is very important:  If you go to Okinawa, you will find dozens of old masters in their 80s and even 90s, who still practice their arts, are in incredible condition and are injury-free.  Why?  Because the karate they practice is less athletic in its focus.   While there is a focus on mechanical (external) power, it is much less pronounced than the emphasis on mechanical, external, athletic power seen in the more modern Japanese and Korean styles.  The simple fact is, doing an inside-out crescent kick thousands and thousands of times (especially if done high, done forcefully, against a bag or even in the air) may look good and may even score you a point or two at a tournament a few times, but how applicable is it really to self-defense or one's mental, emotional, spirit development?  

So, these days I have to be much more careful with my body, be grateful that I can even walk, run and kick at all, and try to teach my students the right way (which means according to their age, body type, and their purpose for training at all....be it self-defense, fitness or competition).  Many of my older students are taught to do good kicks at a rational height (in many cases, knee height is fine).  In many cases, that might mean teaching them an older version of a form (kata, hyung, poomsae, hsing), that utilizes a kick in combination with hand techniques, even if what I am teaching them is not considered part of our style.  I am very careful about having my students extend their hips far forward on front kicks, or in doing anything that could harm them in the long run.  How good is a martial art that one cannot practice one's whole life?

And yes, regarding aikido:   I have trained in that a lot and it is a great martial art.   However, it is possible to injury oneself in there also.  It is more athletic than taichichuan.  There is a lot of throwing and every individual's aikido is different.  Some are harder than others, and the throws can result in shoulder injuries and more.   

More important than the style of martial art is the INSTRUCTOR. A good instructor is quite a bit different than just being a good martial artist or a good athlete (which is what many are).  You need an instructor who CARES about you and who has the knowledge and maturity to teach you intelligently and to care for your well-being.


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## drop bear

Never mind that was a thousand year old post.


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## Balrog

dancingalone said:


> Just thought I would stir up the pot.  Your thoughts?  Is TKD any more debilitating on your body with long term practice than other martial art, given its focus on kicking?
> 
> I suspect the answer depends on the type of kicks you practice, but I'll post my thoughts later after hopefully a few of you reply.


In any martial art, if you do the techniques incorrectly, you'll hurt yourself.  TKD is no different in that aspect.

As far as it being bad for you in general...I have rheumatoid arthritis.  I'm a Master Instructor in Taekwondo.  I firmly believe that I would be in a wheelchair today if it weren't for Taekwondo.


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## paitingman

*I believe the main issue is an under-education in sports medicine with instructors and just your average person. And perhaps as a direct result from that, the reckless nature with which a lot of people can go about training.*

It's not from people blatantly incorrectly executing a kick or technique that results in an immediate, major injury; though that happens a lot.
People push themselves all of the time to just BARELY go beyond their limit. [A little more power this time. A little faster next time.] This can bring about incorrect technique and overstress the joints.

It's subtle though
You're training and feeling great (in regards to your joints) at 60% strength/speed. and are able to do this for hours maybe.
Then suddenly in the moment, for a breaking technique/a fight/ or you just wanted to push yourself, you vamp it up to full power (100%, 120% maybe who knows). And you pull it off. So you feel proud. You feel the stress, but also may have accomplished your goal, be it increased speed or power, so you just forget about the amount of stress your hip or your knee just went through to get it.
And people do this again and again. Creating micro-injuries, that reoccur throughout training. So from a daily cycle of healing to injury, after a few decades your joints are in big trouble.

On top of this, you have an inappropriate (or as I would call it reckless) recovery process to these injuries and even more serious ones in the martial arts community. Not taking sufficient care of or time off from an injury is a huge problem. People pushing through pain or discomfort at the wrong times.

You can see a kid roll an ankle in TKD class, then maybe even finish class or be back the next day or so.
But the same kid who happened to be playing high school football instead, get checked out by a trainer, get properly wrapped up, see a doctor, and not be in practice for a week or two.


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## RTKDCMB

paitingman said:


> You can see a kid roll an ankle in TKD class, then maybe even finish class or be back the next day or so.But the same kid who happened to be playing high school football instead, get checked out by a trainer, get properly wrapped up, see a doctor, and not be in practice for a week or two.


Football players - wusses.


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