# Mcdojo's and their Managers



## Deflecting_the_Storm (Oct 5, 2004)

I dont know who came up with that phrase Mcdojo, but I tell you it describes exactly how I feel about the majority of schools out here today. The question I post to the great people of Martialtalk is this: How does the public buy into all of the BS associated with these schools? Is it that hard to research or look around to find more scientific or better run places? A few years ago I attended a seminar by Huk Planis. Great guy, I maybe knew 3 techniques in Kenpo, had my white belt, and really didnt know anything. (In Kenpo that is) There were other Instructors there and the guy who owned the place was there attending too. I think his name was Rob or Bob Hazlewood if I remember correctly. Both he and Mr. Planis looked like they had been sucked out of a self-defense book and brought to life! The movements, the clear explanations, answering all the questions, and even changing stances and movements for people that it didnt work for. It was amazing. To tell you the honest truth, I havent seen anyone like that in a long time. True teachers of their art. Lots of other instructors and even BB carry themselves as proud, arrogant people. Who know exactly what they are talking about. These two men talked to me like I was a person. Teaching me things that I could use in helping me learn Kenpo. No degrading, no downsizing, they taught me like I had been in this for years and that it was just a little problem that needed to be fixed. Whats really sad is, they never knew my name, but they gave me more respect as a student/person than any other instructer or teacher I have met here in Texas. No BS. They asked me what I was studying, they heckled me, they treated me like a guy who came to learn. Not a follower. I called them sir while they helped me but they kept me from saying that over and over again telling me that I was old enough to know respect. I laughed with them and still called them sir. How do others feel about the MCdojos that exist, and how do they stay open?


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## MJS (Oct 5, 2004)

I think that you said it best in this paragraph.




> Is it that hard to research or look around to find more scientific or better run places?



While at times it may seem easier said than done, especially if the person doesnt know alot about the art they are looking at, with a little time and effort, it can turn out to be a pretty easy thing to do.  The internet as well as word of mouth are two great places to start.

Mike


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## kenpoworks (Oct 5, 2004)

After 25 years in kenpo, I finally met and worked with Huk Planas. he treated me just the same as the white belt at the "McDojo", I learned a great deal in a short weekend, he "fixed" a lot of things in my training.

He is known as the "Kenpo Encyclopedia", but that description of being sucked out of a book and brought to life is on the money.
Richy


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## lvwhitebir (Oct 5, 2004)

Deflecting_the_Storm said:
			
		

> How do others feel about the MCdojos that exist, and how do they stay open?



I think you brought up two points, really.  The first is the importance for the instructor to actually be a proper teacher rather than some "god-like" figure.  This is unrelated, IMO, to a "McDojo" and has more to do with inflated self-worth.  You can have a very highly skilled martial artist teaching who has an inflated ego.  I've seen this problem with a lot of "teachers" in all sorts of fields.  Now that you've seen what a true teacher is, try to emulate it in your teaching and find it for your own training.

As to your last question, the definition of a McDojo is vague.  One person's McDojo is another person's gold mine.  There's a very traditional school near me that doesn't spar.  They do two-person forms and contact drills, but no unrehearsed sparring.  In no way would I ever consider them a McDojo, although the lack of contact fighting makes the list of McDojo qualities for many people.

IMO, it's always better to find the right mix of instructor and school for *you* than to bash what someone else feels is right for *them*.  Try to go for the positive rather than the negative.

WhiteBirch


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## loki09789 (Oct 5, 2004)

lvwhitebir said:
			
		

> IMO, it's always better to find the right mix of instructor and school for *you* than to bash what someone else feels is right for *them*. Try to go for the positive rather than the negative.
> 
> WhiteBirch


Though I also get frustrated at the McDojo stuff, I have to agree with this mentallity.  It is healthier and means that you aren't wasting clock time being frustrated instead of using that time for quality contact with people who you care about or things that are fulfilling.

How do they stay open?  Well, they leave people with the feeling that they have done something unique and rewarding.  People go there (hopefully) knowing that they are not being 'combat trained' but trained as martial arts enthusiasts/hobbyists.  There may be some self defense applications/training and that should be identified and recognized as useful.

In the long run it is no different than any other hobby/activity.  You will have those who dabble, those who 'love it', those who do 'it the right way', and those who are professional at it.  Look at running.  The proportion of 'professional/career' runners who do marathons/races/competition is a very SMALL community compared to the overall population.  THey all can help or hurt the sport/activity by how they represent it to others.  

But, I can bet money that there are some 'right way' marathoners who look down their noses at the casual fitness runner who does one 5k a year (and mainly for the after party).


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Oct 6, 2004)

My definition of a Mcdojo are the schools that teach what seems to be simple techniques, most of them not useful and with no explanation of why, or how. Basics is what should be the focus of every art, with footwork, stances, the hows and whys of doing things explained. Alot of places have what they call the best of some arts mixed together. When in actuallity, its just certain things they feel they would like to put together. Each art has a rhyme and a reason to it. Or I hope it would, and some people do approach it very differently. But how I look at is like if you were to go to a marksmanship/handgun training class. What you are taught is used to injury and or kill people. The people that attend those classes go for one purpose. To learn how to defend themselves with a handgun. Knowing what they are getting into, and how serious it is. I think that if people approach martial arts with this something to do attitude that they need to be turned away. Especially for children. I have taught children and I will tell you that experience proved to me that children need not to be taught how to defend/hurt others because they dont understand the seriousness of it. They cant because they are children. And if people approach MA with this same type of attitude, they will hurt or get hurt themselves. Its scary to see people who think they have been taught self defense and watch them get seriously hurt. False hope. I think that the MCdojos feed on this mentality and suck the money from these people. Giving them false hope, and making a joke of what others take and do seriously.


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## Spud (Oct 6, 2004)

One Person's McDojo is another's goldmine - I like that thought lvwhitebir!  

 I like that - very true. Depends on what you want from your training. For many kids and parents some of the larger franchised MA schools suite their needs well. The kids have fun and want to go. They may be belt factories and we may look down on the quality of the self defense but if they are enjoying themselves and learning self confidence and respect, then great. If an 8 year old wants to think he's a black belt, fine by me. It doesn't take away from my training and I don't train for the belt recognition. 

 I left one of the big franchise schools because their program wasn't what I wanted but they had plenty of happy tiny tigers. More power to them and I'm glad they are in the community.


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## loki09789 (Oct 6, 2004)

Deflecting_the_Storm said:
			
		

> But how I look at is like if you were to go to a marksmanship/handgun training class. What you are taught is used to injury and or kill people. The people that attend those classes go for one purpose. To learn how to defend themselves with a handgun. Knowing what they are getting into, and how serious it is. I think that if people approach martial arts with this something to do attitude that they need to be turned away. .


 
And they will go to another school that allows them the lattitude to have their own reasons for walking in the door in the beginning as a starting point and the time to discover and appreciate the other possible reasons that martial arts practice can be based on.  That is your right to practice and run your business your way.

The problem is that there isn't a recognition for the validity and contribution to a positive impression of the arts on the public that other programs with different approaches can have as well.  I would NOT be teaching a childrens class with the same focus/objectives that I would teach an adults class (whether firearms or martial arts - nice analogy btw, have to agree with the veiw on that) because each group needs different things as part of their 'basics' when you are focusing on them for instruction.

I am not a fan of the TKD model for me personally.  I don't care for the belt/para military structure, the high kicking focus, the barefoot training, the sparring focus.....

BUT

I can respect and appreciate that TKD has done a lot of good as a popular art to give students structure, discipline, fitness, positive motivation (in a good school - but at can happen anywhere), pride in accomplishment, .....  TKD training is demanding and tough.  THe structure reinforces the importants of personal pride and respect for others.

I can 'judge it not right for me' without judging the school/practice/art as a whole.

"McDojo" is a personal opinion term.  Even if you define it as training with 'no explanation' that may just be an 'old school' approach where the teacher is master and students do what he says because he said it - at least at first.  Later, as they train, they get those "Uh-Huh" moments of discovery because they didn't have it 'told to them.'  Just a different approach.  Agree or disagree with it is a fine thing to do, judging others by it for 'quality' isn't.


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## Xequat (Oct 6, 2004)

It just depends on what you want out a MA schools, too.  I train in a few different arts now, and my main one is largely for health.  We work out very hard in class and do lots of different things, like sparring, weapons, and kata, like most schools.  But I also attend another school that isn't so hard on the body, but is more practical on the street.  It takes pressure points and applies them to techniques that I already know or learn in class and breaks down how and why it's effective.  Definitely NOT a McDojo.  But I like them both.  You just have to figure out your priorities and try out some schools or go by recommendations.  

People can recommend a style, but not all schools int hat style will probably be good, so it's kind of up to you.  Like when you go to the movies or something.  You might like action movies better than comedies, but maybe there's a really funnny one out this weel.  You ask your friends how the movie was, you might check out reviews on the Internet, etc., but this is more of an investment, so know what you're getting into before you start.


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## TChase (Oct 12, 2004)

Deflecting_the_Storm said:
			
		

> Its scary to see people who think they have been taught self defense and watch them get seriously hurt. False hope. I think that the MCdojos feed on this mentality and suck the money from these people. Giving them false hope, and making a joke of what others take and do seriously.


Exactly!  That is the main reason I have a problem with McDojos/Belt Factories.  They water down and cut away the material to make it easy.  That way they can quickly push people through the ranks while maximizing their profit...all the while telling people how great they're doing.  In the end you have a person who has given up a large amount of money and time for nothing more than a false sense of security.

-Tom


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## Ceicei (Oct 12, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Exactly! That is the main reason I have a problem with McDojos/Belt Factories. They water down and cut away the material to make it easy. That way they can quickly push people through the ranks while maximizing their profit...all the while telling people how great they're doing. In the end you have a person who has given up a large amount of money and time for nothing more than a false sense of security.
> 
> -Tom


It is possible to get a false sense of security even with a school that isn't a McDojo...  it all boils down to how the instructor teaches and the attitudes of the students.

- Ceicei


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## SMP (Oct 12, 2004)

When you come from a point of ignorance it is difficult to tell what is hamburger and what is lobster


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## hardheadjarhead (Oct 12, 2004)

Its too easy to level the charge of McDojo.  

I know one person who directed the charge at my school.   He was a failed school owner and the charge was nothing more than "sour grapes" backbiting.  I'd been open only six months...he had no idea of what I charged or how I promoted people.  He was a commercial failure and closed soon after I opened.

That said, there ARE McDojos. However, these following traits _are not necessarily _ criteria for a school being called one:

The bulk of the income comes from kids.
The school is a part of a franchise.
The school is aggressive in marketing.
The school runs camps, or has a "Black Belt Club" for kids.
Contracts.
The school is located in a mall.

I've seen on other forums where some thought any or all of these would qualify a school as a McDojo.  This is fallacious reasoning.  A good school could use all of these business tactics and still maintain quality. 

Please note my school isn't franchised, doesn't have camps or a "Black Belt Club", nor uses contracts.  I have no agenda in defending them.

It is a myth that a good program needs to be run out of a garage by a person who isn't teaching for a living.  



Regards,


Steve


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## TChase (Oct 12, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> It is possible to get a false sense of security even with a school that isn't a McDojo... it all boils down to how the instructor teaches and the attitudes of the students.
> 
> - Ceicei


How so?  If an instructor were to promote you above your ability level or just teach you useless crap in general, then they qualify as a McDojo.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 12, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> How so?  If an instructor were to promote you above your ability level or just teach you useless crap in general, then they qualify as a McDojo.


I think the belief that your school rocks and all the others are Mc Dojos is what she is getting at. What is "useless crap" and who is teaching it?
Sean :asian:


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## TChase (Oct 12, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I think the belief that your school rocks and all the others are Mc Dojos is what she is getting at. What is "useless crap" and who is teaching it?
> Sean :asian:


I don't see how anything I've said can be construed as "my school rocks and all the others are Mc Dojos."  I've said nothing of the sort.  There are plenty of great schools out there and unfortunately there are plenty of bad ones too.  If you're looking for specific examples email or pm me and I'll give you some.

-Tom


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 13, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> I don't see how anything I've said can be construed as "my school rocks and all the others are Mc Dojos."  I've said nothing of the sort.  There are plenty of great schools out there and unfortunately there are plenty of bad ones too.  If you're looking for specific examples email or pm me and I'll give you some.
> 
> -Tom


Tom,
I'm not pointing at you, personaly. I mean the belief that one has a jump on other martial artists because of lineage, trophy count, and even famous names and faces  that are in the same style take away from the main goal, which is to better ourselves and sharpen our skills. My point is that every one believes in what they do, and that even low ranking blackbelts can impart a wealth of knowledge. I doubt a question comes up that cannot be answered once they've consulted their sources.


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## pgsmith (Sep 19, 2017)

However, it says bad things about your sense of awareness when you reply to threads that haven't been touched in 13 years.


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## drop bear (Sep 19, 2017)

same reason a fat metaboliser can sell for $65.

Hard work is hard.
HydroxyburnShred - Bodyscience - Fat Burner


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## Steve (Sep 20, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> However, it says bad things about your sense of awareness when you reply to threads that haven't been touched in 13 years.


Is this referencing yourself?  I'm truly lost with this one.  I see a post from 2004 and then yours with none in between.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 20, 2017)

Steve said:


> Is this referencing yourself?  I'm truly lost with this one.  I see a post from 2004 and then yours with none in between.


it is possible the post was deleted by the mods.


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2017)

How confusing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2017)

Steve said:


> Is this referencing yourself?  I'm truly lost with this one.  I see a post from 2004 and then yours with none in between.


Odd. There was one - he replied to it.


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## pgsmith (Sep 20, 2017)

Steve said:


> Is this referencing yourself?  I'm truly lost with this one.  I see a post from 2004 and then yours with none in between.


 How fun! The mods must have decided he was spamming his software, and set me up by deleting his post.
 That will teach me to be snarky! (nah, I doubt it)


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 20, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> How fun! The mods must have decided he was spamming his software, and set me up by deleting his post.
> That will teach me to be snarky! (nah, I doubt it)


It does make your post pretty ironic, though.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 20, 2017)

well i am gald we got that resolved.  
now we can let this thread go back down to the depth of Hades where it belongs.


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## pgsmith (Sep 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It does make your post pretty ironic, though.


  Yep!  I'm betting that whichever mod deleted that post, they were probably snickering at leaving mine out there by itself. I know I would have been!


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## Anarax (Sep 20, 2017)

Deflecting_the_Storm said:


> I dont know who came up with that phrase Mcdojo, but I tell you it describes exactly how I feel about the majority of schools out here today. The question I post to the great people of Martialtalk is this: How does the public buy into all of the BS associated with these schools? Is it that hard to research or look around to find more scientific or better run places? A few years ago I attended a seminar by Huk Planis. Great guy, I maybe knew 3 techniques in Kenpo, had my white belt, and really didnt know anything. (In Kenpo that is) There were other Instructors there and the guy who owned the place was there attending too. I think his name was Rob or Bob Hazlewood if I remember correctly. Both he and Mr. Planis looked like they had been sucked out of a self-defense book and brought to life! The movements, the clear explanations, answering all the questions, and even changing stances and movements for people that it didnt work for. It was amazing. To tell you the honest truth, I havent seen anyone like that in a long time. True teachers of their art. Lots of other instructors and even BB carry themselves as proud, arrogant people. Who know exactly what they are talking about. These two men talked to me like I was a person. Teaching me things that I could use in helping me learn Kenpo. No degrading, no downsizing, they taught me like I had been in this for years and that it was just a little problem that needed to be fixed. Whats really sad is, they never knew my name, but they gave me more respect as a student/person than any other instructer or teacher I have met here in Texas. No BS. They asked me what I was studying, they heckled me, they treated me like a guy who came to learn. Not a follower. I called them sir while they helped me but they kept me from saying that over and over again telling me that I was old enough to know respect. I laughed with them and still called them sir. How do others feel about the MCdojos that exist, and how do they stay open?



Most people are ignorant of Martial Arts when they first start training. Many people are unsure what to look for in a MA school. There are parents that take their child or children to one school that they know very little about. They think it's all the same, "kicking is kicking, punching is punching". Mcdojos have their business down to a science. They know how to act, speak and present themselves in a manner that makes them look competent. They know how to create an environment that tricks people into thinking they are at the *right *school. In summary, I think children make up the bulk of the business for Mcdojos and that's what keeps them financially successful.


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## Anarax (Sep 20, 2017)

Deflecting_the_Storm said:


> I dont know who came up with that phrase Mcdojo, but I tell you it describes exactly how I feel about the majority of schools out here today. The question I post to the great people of Martialtalk is this: How does the public buy into all of the BS associated with these schools? Is it that hard to research or look around to find more scientific or better run places? A few years ago I attended a seminar by Huk Planis. Great guy, I maybe knew 3 techniques in Kenpo, had my white belt, and really didnt know anything. (In Kenpo that is) There were other Instructors there and the guy who owned the place was there attending too. I think his name was Rob or Bob Hazlewood if I remember correctly. Both he and Mr. Planis looked like they had been sucked out of a self-defense book and brought to life! The movements, the clear explanations, answering all the questions, and even changing stances and movements for people that it didnt work for. It was amazing. To tell you the honest truth, I havent seen anyone like that in a long time. True teachers of their art. Lots of other instructors and even BB carry themselves as proud, arrogant people. Who know exactly what they are talking about. These two men talked to me like I was a person. Teaching me things that I could use in helping me learn Kenpo. No degrading, no downsizing, they taught me like I had been in this for years and that it was just a little problem that needed to be fixed. Whats really sad is, they never knew my name, but they gave me more respect as a student/person than any other instructer or teacher I have met here in Texas. No BS. They asked me what I was studying, they heckled me, they treated me like a guy who came to learn. Not a follower. I called them sir while they helped me but they kept me from saying that over and over again telling me that I was old enough to know respect. I laughed with them and still called them sir. How do others feel about the MCdojos that exist, and how do they stay open?



I once saw an ad in the classifieds years ago that said "Martial Arts School Assistant Instructor wanted, no experience required."


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 20, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I once saw an ad in the classifieds years ago that said "Martial Arts School Assistant Instructor wanted, no experience required."



One hopes that means the candidate doesn't need TEACHING experience...


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## Anarax (Sep 21, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> One hopes that means the candidate doesn't need TEACHING experience...



Hopefully so


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> One hopes that means the candidate doesn't need TEACHING experience...


I'd hope. I'm amazed at the idea of posting for an instructor job, anyway. I think that's because I come from an art where finding another instructor candidate in the area would be miraculous. In something like TKD, I can see where it might be reasonable to hope there's a viable candidate in the area.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd hope. I'm amazed at the idea of posting for an instructor job, anyway. I think that's because I come from an art where finding another instructor candidate in the area would be miraculous. In something like TKD, I can see where it might be reasonable to hope there's a viable candidate in the area.



Even, then...
If I hired a random TKD Black Belt off the street to teach, it's very unlikely they'd be teaching our system, or even know our poomsae.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Even, then...
> If I hired a random TKD Black Belt off the street to teach, it's very unlikely they'd be teaching our system, or even know our poomsae.


Agreed. If it's someone to help oversee some classes (maybe kids, though I'd be most reluctant to hire blind for that), I guess maybe. I guess it's like hiring a trainer in the corporate world - experience doesn't necessarily mean they're very good, nor that they can teach the stuff used in your environment. I'd be interested in hearing a different viewpoint, but I don't know anyone who has ever hired a MA instructor that way.


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## JR 137 (Sep 21, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I once saw an ad in the classifieds years ago that said "Martial Arts School Assistant Instructor wanted, no experience required."


About a year or so ago, a new MA school opened up in a plaza (or at least that's when I first noticed it).  I looked it up and found this (it gets really good at about :30 in  )...





Maybe they're the ones with the help wanted ads?


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## Charlemagne (Sep 21, 2017)

Although this was brought up through some impressive thread necromancy, it's a worthwhile discussion in my view.  

It's honestly very hard for the non-aficionado to tell the difference between mass produced crap and stuff that has spread because it is really good.


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## JR 137 (Sep 21, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Although this was brought up through some impressive thread necromancy, it's a worthwhile discussion in my view.
> 
> It's honestly very hard for the non-aficionado to tell the difference between mass produced crap and stuff that has spread because it is really good.


While there's no shortage of idiots out there, let's be serious.  A lot of people can tell crap fantasy "fighting" from realistic stuff.  Most McDojo warriors aren't there to fight, they're there to have fun, exercise, spend quality time with their kids, etc.

I know several people pretty well who have their kids at a local McDojo or two.  I've told them about where I train and how it's about 1/3 the price (no exaggeration).  They're completely happy with how the McDojo is run and all the fringe benefits of it.  I don't preach, I just start with "... if you're looking for something cheaper and actually MA..."  They're happy where they are, and I'm happy for them.  Not a single one left.  Most common response: "My kids love it there."


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> While there's no shortage of idiots out there, let's be serious.  A lot of people can tell crap fantasy "fighting" from realistic stuff.  Most McDojo warriors aren't there to fight, they're there to have fun, exercise, spend quality time with their kids, etc.
> 
> I know several people pretty well who have their kids at a local McDojo or two.  I've told them about where I train and how it's about 1/3 the price (no exaggeration).  They're completely happy with how the McDojo is run and all the fringe benefits of it.  I don't preach, I just start with "... if you're looking for something cheaper and actually MA..."  They're happy where they are, and I'm happy for them.  Not a single one left.  Most common response: "My kids love it there."


Some don't, I think. I've seen a demo by a nearby school, and I found literally everything in the demo (except one student - I'll come to him later) entirely abysmal. Breaks failed (because of poor technique - even I could see it), and people clapped and seemed impressed by the explanation and by the breaks that succeeded. Kata were performed sloppily (I could tell, although I have no idea what their kata are/should be). Multiple attacker defense was demonstrated, and the sequencing was more obvious than an episode of Walker: Texas Ranger, yet people were suitably impressed as each attacker was defeated. Even the chief instructor was unimpressive.

That was about 20 years ago. That school is still open, and appears to be flourishing by demonstrating their poor skills. It seems a lot of people go to this school based upon these demonstrations (according to the instructor, who I spoke with briefly at that demo).

That one student I said was impressive? He was a yellow belt, and his movement looked like maybe TKD (which the school is not). He had good kicks and smooth movement. He stood out among the demo team as being competent - I have to assume he was trained elsewhere before going to that school.


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## Anarax (Sep 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> About a year or so ago, a new MA school opened up in a plaza (or at least that's when I first noticed it).  I looked it up and found this (it gets really good at about :30 in  )...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yikes, yeah that's probably the type of school that posted the job listing


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## JR 137 (Sep 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Some don't, I think. I've seen a demo by a nearby school, and I found literally everything in the demo (except one student - I'll come to him later) entirely abysmal. Breaks failed (because of poor technique - even I could see it), and people clapped and seemed impressed by the explanation and by the breaks that succeeded. Kata were performed sloppily (I could tell, although I have no idea what their kata are/should be). Multiple attacker defense was demonstrated, and the sequencing was more obvious than an episode of Walker: Texas Ranger, yet people were suitably impressed as each attacker was defeated. Even the chief instructor was unimpressive.
> 
> That was about 20 years ago. That school is still open, and appears to be flourishing by demonstrating their poor skills. It seems a lot of people go to this school based upon these demonstrations (according to the instructor, who I spoke with briefly at that demo).
> 
> That one student I said was impressive? He was a yellow belt, and his movement looked like maybe TKD (which the school is not). He had good kicks and smooth movement. He stood out among the demo team as being competent - I have to assume he was trained elsewhere before going to that school.


Thanks for that, Gerry.  On the very rare occurrence that I gave mankind the benefit of the doubt, you just had to come up with reality and squash what little hope I had.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 22, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Thanks for that, Gerry.  On the very rare occurrence that I gave mankind the benefit of the doubt, you just had to come up with reality and squash what little hope I had.


It's a service I provide, my friend.


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## pgsmith (Sep 22, 2017)

The strange truth that I've discovered, and come to grips with, is that a great many people don't want effective training. They don't want to practice that much or that hard. They are perfectly happy doing sloppy technique and feeling good about themselves because they're training in the martial arts. This is why there are still a lot of strip mall karate clubs, and places like the World Sokeship Council and World Martial Arts Hall of Fame have a lot of members.   McDojos obviously fill a need, and even bad martial arts training is better than sitting on the couch watching reality TV.


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## swhitney222 (Sep 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Most people are ignorant of Martial Arts when they first start training. Many people are unsure what to look for in a MA school. There are parents that take their child or children to one school that they know very little about. They think it's all the same, "kicking is kicking, punching is punching". Mcdojos have their business down to a science. They know how to act, speak and present themselves in a manner that makes them look competent. They know how to create an environment that tricks people into thinking they are at the *right *school. In summary, I think children make up the bulk of the business for Mcdojos and that's what keeps them financially successful.



Hi Anarax,

I total agree. most people are uneducated about the different types and styles/systems of martial arts especially starting out. I started out my training with no research and ended up training with a school that could talk great and could sell anything. Not until you are to deep in training do you find out that it was a bunch of crap. He would not tell anyone who certified him in his rank in any of the styles he was teaching, no paper certifications of rank, and over the years began to test people that skill levels were not there. I know cause I got to black and was running his schools for awhile until I went to another school and noticed a huge difference in knowledge and skill that I was not getting. Glad I am not there now he is doing 3 year contracts and has watered down the skill needed to get your next belt. I guess if you made up your own curriculum with no lineage you can make up whatever you like. So glad I am out of there now.


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 22, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> The strange truth that I've discovered, and come to grips with, is that a great many people don't want effective training. They don't want to practice that much or that hard. They are perfectly happy doing sloppy technique and feeling good about themselves because they're training in the martial arts. This is why there are still a lot of strip mall karate clubs, and places like the World Sokeship Council and World Martial Arts Hall of Fame have a lot of members.   McDojos obviously fill a need, and even bad martial arts training is better than sitting on the couch watching reality TV.



i have thought the same thing for a long time now.  my take on it is that people want the image of a butt kicking bad a$$.  they enjoy family and friends bragging about how they just got their next rank,  they like the feeling when people say to them "_oh your a black belt ,, well i wont mess with you"  _to me it is the equivalent of guys that buy and ride a Harley motorcycle but are not really bikers.  they bought the Harley to be cool but really a Vesper would meet their riding needs.


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## swhitney222 (Sep 22, 2017)

accidently posted twice


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 22, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> The strange truth that I've discovered, and come to grips with, is that a great many people don't want effective training. They don't want to practice that much or that hard. They are perfectly happy doing sloppy technique and feeling good about themselves because they're training in the martial arts. This is why there are still a lot of strip mall karate clubs, and places like the World Sokeship Council and World Martial Arts Hall of Fame have a lot of members.   McDojos obviously fill a need, and even bad martial arts training is better than sitting on the couch watching reality TV.



i have thought the same thing for a long time now.  my take on it is that people want the image of a butt kicking bad a$$.  they enjoy family and friends bragging about how they just got their next rank,  they like the feeling when people say to them "_oh your a black belt ,, well i wont mess with you"  _to me it is the equivalent of guys that buy and ride a Harley motorcycle but are not really bikers.  they bought the Harley to be cool but really a Vesper would meet their riding needs.


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## swhitney222 (Sep 22, 2017)

Anarax said:


> Most people are ignorant of Martial Arts when they first start training. Many people are unsure what to look for in a MA school. There are parents that take their child or children to one school that they know very little about. They think it's all the same, "kicking is kicking, punching is punching". Mcdojos have their business down to a science. They know how to act, speak and present themselves in a manner that makes them look competent. They know how to create an environment that tricks people into thinking they are at the *right *school. In summary, I think children make up the bulk of the business for Mcdojos and that's what keeps them financially successful.



Hi Anarax,

I total agree. most people are uneducated about the different types and styles/systems of martial arts especially starting out. I started out my training with no research and ended up training with a school that could talk great and could sell anything. Not until you are to deep in training do you find out that it was a bunch of crap. He would not tell anyone who certified him in his rank in any of the styles he was teaching, no paper certifications of rank, and over the years began to test people that skill levels were not there. I know cause I got to black and was running his schools for awhile until I went to another school and noticed a huge difference in knowledge and skill that I was not getting. Glad I am not there now he is doing 3 year contracts and has watered down the skill needed to get your next belt. I guess if you made up your own curriculum with no lineage you can make up whatever you like.

The main problem is people don't know any difference when they start and most become brain washed into thinking that they have this great skill and knowledge. and sadly they do not research there own art to find out the truth.


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