# Do You Believe We Are Living In Hell?



## Tames D (Apr 2, 2010)

I know this is a weird question considering it's Good Friday. But here go's. 

Do you think this is Hell we are currently living in? Or do you believe this is an "inbetween' where we will either go to Heaven or Hell when we die? Or do you believe something different?

A couple of years ago I was in Las Vegas and was invited to see a psychic show starring Sylvia Browne. Although, I wasn't too impressed with her psychic abilities (based on some of her answers to the individuals in the crowd) I was entertained. It was thought provoking.

She mentioned something during the show that I immediately dismissed as BS. She said that we are currently living in Hell. This is Hell, and when you die you will either go to Heaven or you will stay in this world (Hell) and hover around endlessly as a disturbed spirit. 

Recently, with an event that took place in my life, I've been thinking about her words alot. Maybe there is something to what she said. Maybe this is Hell. So many questions and so few answers.


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## Phoenix44 (Apr 2, 2010)

I've been to hell.  I don't think this is it.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm pretty sure this topic has been covered by theologians ever since the concept of hell (as a final stop after death) was introduced.

As to my thiughts; no, I don't think so.  Christian hell is described as existence in the absence of God (read: Hope) and there is plenty of hope all around us, even if you have to look hard.  We have the opportunity, every split-second, to create a new future for ourselves.  If this is not hope, then I am mightily wrong.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 2, 2010)

Everyone knows Hell is Detroit.  So unless you live in Detroit, no. 

Sylvia Browne is a known fraud.  Pay no attention to anything she says.

As for the concept, humans have the capability to work together to make everyone's life better.  People have better, longer lives then they did in the past.  Doesn't sound much like any Hell I've ever heard about.


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## Tames D (Apr 2, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> People have better, longer lives then they did in the past. Doesn't sound much like any Hell I've ever heard about.


 
Not everyone has a better life. And regarding longer life, isn't life in hell... looong. lol.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 2, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Everyone knows Hell is Detroit.  So unless you live in Detroit, no.



Hell is actually not in Detroit, but you can almost see it from there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan

I've been to Hell.  They have a rodeo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wigwam/sets/72157607420107828/


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## Tames D (Apr 2, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Sylvia Browne is a known fraud. Pay no attention to anything she says.


 
I heard that about her too. But what is that quote..."even a broken clock is right twice a day". Her words just gave me alot to think about.


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## CanuckMA (Apr 2, 2010)

Of course, for those of us who don't believe in hell, what does this make this place?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 2, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> Of course, for those of us who don't believe in hell, what does this make this place?



All there is.  So break out the booze, and have a ball.  'Cause that's all there is.



> [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial][SIZE=-1]IS THAT ALL THERE IS?
> Peggy Lee
> 
> SPOKEN:
> ...


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## kaizasosei (Apr 2, 2010)

I sure have been successfull at creating hell for myself.  

People value what you got! Be thankfull all the time-Don't be stupid haughty or too silly about life.   Otherwise, you will find yourself in hell too.  This is the word of the fool.


j


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## grydth (Apr 2, 2010)

If we were in Hell, we would have no capacity to make our lives and those of others better. A good part of our daily experience is what we make it.


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 2, 2010)

Nope. There's a kitty sleeping soundly and happily a mere 2 feet from where I type. Ideal life? No. Hell? Even more no.


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## Omar B (Apr 2, 2010)

Depends on if you believe in the christian concept of hell.  I don't so hell's more of a catch all term for really terrable places that I hate, like New Jersey and Rhode Island.


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## Carol (Apr 2, 2010)

Wow, what a question. :asian:  I apologize if what I am writing is way too long. 

As Christianity spread throughout the world, it gradually adopted concepts that the local people believed.  One of the best examples is the holiday that is coming up on Sunday. In Spanish-speaking countries, it is Pascua de Resurreccion (Feast of the Resurrection).   But in countries that speak English and German, the name is taken from the Germanic fertility goddess Oestra (Ostara, Eostere, etc.), who was honored around the time of the vernal equinox.  Not all concepts were incorporated in to Christianity.  Example:  Christians (and Westerners in general) generally do not believe in reincarnation.  

God and Satan, Heaven and Hell...the concept of a duality in the ethereal  goes back to the ancient Zoroastrians who predated the Christians by several centuries.  The concepts probably had their influence on Christianity as the early Christians spread through the Persia.  

The philosophy of "Hell is the mortal world, and Heaven is where we go when we die" is essentially the result of adding the Zoroastrian-esque duality of Heaven and Hell to the belief of reincarnation.   Many religions that believe in reincarnation believe in a cycle of births and deaths, and when one becomes human, that is the chance to break the cycle and merge the soul with God.  Scripture from Sikhism and Hinduism mentions Chaurasi Lakh Joon Upai, or 8,400,000 lifetimes.   This incapsulates and old Vedic concept of there being 8,400,000 possible lifeforms, and that one must (or one may) go through them all before receiving the chance to break the mortal circle and become eternal with God.  

So....are we living in Hell?  I don't know.  I don't see it that way.  I remember at a particularly low point in my life, I was sitting with a Zoroastrian friend who was an asylee from Iran.  She said "Life is like a zebra" meaning it has black and white stripes...or bad parts and good parts.  The good parts are never permanent, but neither ar the bad.


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 2, 2010)

It shouldnt come as any surprise to anyone, but I dont believe in hell or heaven. Half of the worlds population is from non-abrahamic religions, are they all incorrect in their beliefs?

That being said, it doesnt really matter. 

The world is filled with many wondrous things to experience, either created by a god, or gods or whatever. The spring air, a breeze rustling through the canopy of a forest, children laughing and running in a play ground, your child calling you Daddy, someone telling you that they love you, bread or cookies baking, a sun rise, a spring rain in the mountains, you get the idea. Yes there is poverty, yes there is misery, yes there is disease and death, but life by itself is a wonderful trip to take. 

No this isnt hell, but if you work it right, it can be as close to heaven as you will ever get.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 2, 2010)

Depends on how my day at the office went...


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## 72ronin (Apr 2, 2010)

"Are we living in Hell"

    What the.. 
  Take a walk through nature some time, do you really think that such extreme belief systems are relevant to the nature/planet/solar system/universe etc etc

  For egsample, take the human species out of the equation right now...  You see?  We have a tendency to take ourselves way too seriously is all


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## SensibleManiac (Apr 2, 2010)

Here is a zen story:

Once a soldier called Nobushige came to Haukin and enquired : " Is there really a heaven and a hell?"

"Who are you?"asked Hakuin.

The soldier replied : "I am a Samurai"

"You, a soldier?!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar !"

Nobushige's anger knew no bounds that he began to draw his sword. 

Haukin then said : " So you have a sword ! But your weapon is too dull to cut off my head "

Nobushige now actually drew his sword.

Hakuin then remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"

Hearing the master's words the Samurai, perceiving his discipline, placed his sword back into the sheath bowed and said, "I understand."

"Here open the gates of heaven," said Hakuin.


These are actually very simple perceptions, this world can be both heaven and hell, in the end it's up to you and a little luck to make it what you want.

Also, just read the bottom of my signature for the path to creating some heaven.


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## grydth (Apr 2, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Depends on if you believe in the christian concept of hell.  I don't so hell's more of a catch all term for really terrable places that I hate, like New Jersey and Rhode Island.



Wait a minute.... Hell is New Jersey? I wouldn't think they'd make it so obvious...


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## Blade96 (Apr 2, 2010)

if there's a such thing as hell then I've already been there; nothing after death can be worse


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 2, 2010)

I'll tell you this; if I owned Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas.


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## CanuckMA (Apr 3, 2010)

grydth said:


> Wait a minute.... Hell is New Jersey? I wouldn't think they'd make it so obvious...


 

No, no,no.

Jersey is where you go when Hell does not want you.


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## Tames D (Apr 3, 2010)

grydth said:


> If we were in Hell, we would have no capacity to make our lives and those of others better.


 
Out of curiosity, how would you know?


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## Tames D (Apr 3, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> Of course, for those of us who don't believe in hell, what does this make this place?


 
You tell me. That's kinda what I'm asking.


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## Tames D (Apr 3, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> So break out the booze, and have a ball. 'Cause that's all there is.


 
I'll drink to that


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## Tames D (Apr 3, 2010)

Ok, here is my take on this. This is NOT hell. In my case, life has been too good for me to even consider it to be hell. Suffering, murder, torture, earthquakes, landslides, tornados, car accidents, rape, homes burning down, etc, etc, etc. that hasn't been my experience in this life, at least not yet. 

But I have to ask the question, why is this happening to people? Good people. Is this heaven? Don't think so. But it's not hell. 

Life is still good. Better for some of us than others.


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## xJOHNx (Apr 5, 2010)

"L'enfer c'est les autres."

Always has been, always will be.


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## pmosiun1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Tames D said:


> Do you think this is Hell we are currently living in? Or do you believe this is an "inbetween' where we will either go to Heaven or Hell when we die? Or do you believe something different?



Heaven and hell is in our mind. It is not something that can be proven to exist. If you pass away and without the function of your brain because your body is no longer function, which holds you conscious and sub conscious, would you think you would be aware of this world?

An example is gut feeling, your gut does not actually tell you something is wrong, it is your brain that tells you.


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## Joab (Apr 5, 2010)

I think this is an in between place, neither Heaven or Hell, when you die you end up in Heaven or Hell. I think this world is more like Hell than Heaven, and I think you can create your own Hell on this Earth but Hell is a place in the afterlife for those who reject Jesus's free gift of forgiveness from our sins. Jesus died on the cross and His blood will cleanse you of your sins, but if you reject this free gift you end up in Hell.


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## kaizasosei (Apr 5, 2010)

My dad would probably answer the question with 'well maybe you live in hell but not me' 

But funny thing is, i think the guy truly believes the world is a wicked place.  So my dad would be prime candidate as someone who sortof believes the world is hell or Savage, Brutal and unfair. 
Another person i know, firmly believes that we have come here in this life to work off past misdeeds. She blames all the work she has in life as the proof of former misdeeds and her goal, she says, is to work her butt off in this life to be able to come back in the next life as someone that doesn't need to work so much. 
Interesting takes.

I guess it's all relative.


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 5, 2010)

Joab said:


> I think this is an in between place, neither Heaven or Hell, when you die you end up in Heaven or Hell. I think this world is more like Hell than Heaven, and I think you can create your own Hell on this Earth but Hell is a place in the afterlife for those who reject Jesus's free gift of forgiveness from our sins. Jesus died on the cross and His blood will cleanse you of your sins, but if you reject this free gift you end up in Hell.


 
Im not trying to start up another religion vs. atheist battle here, but I do have a question?

Is it really about accepting Jesus or is it about ones actions while on earth?

I may be an atheist, but I volunteer, I hold the door for people, Ive never been involved in any criminal activity, I donate to charity, I say please and thank you, I genuinely care about others and I do my best to help others. Now I also know of some very religious people who are selfish, hypocritical, rude, dominating, and participate in extramarital affairs. Now if there is a heaven or hell, why would I not get to go, but this other person does? Am I not a better person? Do I not portray a more Christian attitude?

Again, seriously Im not trying to start (already), a new debate, that will come on its own soon enough, but why would non Christians who lead good live not get to go? And Christians who dont lead a good life be able too? 

I know nothing about any other religions view of heaven or hell but I suppose this question can be expanded to those as well.


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## kaizasosei (Apr 5, 2010)

Why bother with sort of attitude is totally rediculous.  Tradition demands some of this, but to take is seriously is obviously a sin in itself, imo. 
Accept Jesus?  guess it's hardest to accept the truth.  To accept ones life.  To accept ones parents or children.  I don't think jesus would care all too much about himself being 'accepted' by us dumbasses. I think his purpose and message is served in elevating us to a level of spiritual maturity.  But people will always cling to an idea and use even religion to spread their own madness and attempt to gain power over others through such selfrightious and hurtful ways.  It's ironic and mostly doomed to bear no fruit whatsoever.

Seems that the first step is achieved in realizing something is wrong. The second step is the ability to remanin neutral and be able to say no, perhaps even to resist somehow.  But the ultimate would be to effectively strike the enemy down if not scare him into flight.  The enemy being all truly evil or infantile views.  Simultaneously making amends and coming to a compromise as human beings eye to eye, thereby successfully communicating.  That is more than enough.  Otherwise you're just wasting your time, putting your life in danger.  Like Meister Eckhart said, what you eat becomes your body but what you believe in devours you and you become that thing.  So be happy if you believe in good things.

Howz that sayin go,? Wrestling with the pig, everyone gets dirty but the pig loves it.



j


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 5, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Im not trying to start up another religion vs. atheist battle here, but I do have a question?
> 
> Is it really about accepting Jesus or is it about ones actions while on earth?



According to most Christian beliefs (varies by denomination), it is 'not by works alone' you are saved.  The basic requirements for salvation according to Christianity are:

Baptism (you must be 'born again')
Belief (you must accept Jesus as son of God and your personal Savior)
Repentence (confession of sin, abhorrence of sin, and belief in Jesus as absolver of sin)
Forgiveness of the sins of others.

Some biblical passages indicate that you will also be judged by your works, but the basics found in the New Testament are above.



> I may be an atheist, but I volunteer, I hold the door for people, Ive never been involved in any criminal activity, I donate to charity, I say please and thank you, I genuinely care about others and I do my best to help others. Now I also know of some very religious people who are selfish, hypocritical, rude, dominating, and participate in extramarital affairs. Now if there is a heaven or hell, why would I not get to go, but this other person does? Am I not a better person? Do I not portray a more Christian attitude?



Certainly a more laudable attitude, that's for sure!

Note that no Christian is compelled to do good works, just to refrain from doing evil works.  Judaism does commend good deeds (mitzvahs), but that's not a Christian requirement.  Theoretically, a complete jackass of a person could get to Heaven by following the rules above - although it is presumed (and hoped) that a person _'Saved by Grace'_ also changes their outlook on life and their attitude, and becomes more of a loving, caring person such as you yourself are.

As to sinning, we Christians believe that all have sinned, and all continue to sin.  Some Christians do not believe in Original Sin, but we all believe that we sin in our everyday actions, that we are not just saved, but continue to be saved, and will continue to need salvation by Christ's gift to us every single day for all of our lives.  We cheat, steal, lie, hurt people, curse God, and perform all sorts of sins with great gusto, day after day.  In little ways and in large ones.  It is only through Grace that we are saved, but it is not a one-time deal like having your car rust-protected.

Heaven, according to Christians, is reserved for those who accepted Jesus as their personal Savior.  According to the Catholic beliefs:

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-nicene-creed.html



> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We believe in one God,     the Father, the Almighty,     maker of heaven and earth,     and of all that is, seen and unseen.
> We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,     the only Son of God,     eternally begotten of the Father,     God from God, Light from Light,     true God from true God,     begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.     Through him all things were made.     For us men and for our salvation,         he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit     he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;     he suffered, died, and was buried.     On the third day he rose again         in fulfillment of the Scriptures;     he ascended into heaven         and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge          the living and the dead,     and his kingdom will have no end.
> We believe in the Holy Spirit,     the Lord, the giver of life,     who proceeds from the Father and the Son.     With the Father and the Son he          is worshipped and glorified.     He has spoken through the Prophets.     We believe in one holy catholic          and apostolic Church.     We acknowledge one baptism          for the forgiveness of sins.     We look for the resurrection of the dead,         and the life of the world to come.[/FONT]



Not all Christians use the same wording as the Catholic Church, but many use some form of the Nicene Creed, so that's pretty much as close as you will get to a description of 'what Christians believe' that is required for Salvation.



> Again, seriously Im not trying to start (already), a new debate, that will come on its own soon enough, but why would non Christians who lead good live not get to go? And Christians who dont lead a good life be able too?



John 14:6 is the basic premise.  In it, Jesus says he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  No one comes to the Father but through Him.

It's a harsh statement for non-Christians, but it is a tenet of our beliefs.  If you don't believe in the Son, you can't get into Heaven.  It's a rule.

You might enjoy this - I think it's hilarious.  Points out some of the contradictions in Christian beliefs of this sort:






It is also a question that Christian theologians have wrestled with over the centuries.  What about all the people who were born, lived, and died long before Jesus?  How could they accept Jesus if He did not yet exist?  And isn't it unfair to punish them for not accepting Jesus if they literally could not have done so?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p1.htm

Catholics teach that when Jesus died on the Cross, He descended into Hell.  Not the 'lake of fire' spoken of in Revelations, but a place where all souls go before Judgment, a place where God is not.  Their condition there is not all the same; some await the Judgment 'in the bosom of Abraham' and are shielded from all harm and suffering.  Some are not so lucky.  Jesus, it is said _"preached even to the dead"_ and those who heard and accepted His authority will be saved.

However, Jesus is no longer in Hell, and therefore anyone who has died since His Ascension into Heaven who has not heard His call, or anyone who had and rejected it, will be judged, condemned, and thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Judgment.  Harsh stuff.



> I know nothing about any other religions view of heaven or hell but I suppose this question can be expanded to those as well.



No idea there.  I'm not even an expert in my own religion.


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## kaizasosei (Apr 5, 2010)

It is often said that the heart of jesus as well as the entire story of jesus is 'a mystery'.   I do somehow believe that there is a concious element to the universe and that it knows everything.  So the only people that need to worry about 'HELL' are those that create it for themselves by being excessively evil.  Tell me about it- Still, the question was, are we in hell over here...  but the real hell, if one believes would mean a very undesirable state- 


j


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## CoryKS (Apr 5, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Everyone knows Hell is Detroit. So unless you live in Detroit, no.


 
Detroit is not Hell.  Detroit exists so that people in Hell can say, "Well, at least we aren't in Detroit."


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## kaizasosei (Apr 5, 2010)

What if heaven is right next to Detroit?


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 5, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gnQz32c5EA


 
Thanks Bill, I love that episode. Though honestly if "Lucy" was in charge of hell, I'd be her slave in a heart beat!!  One of my favorites is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KSLRjDR4aQ&feature=channel

Ya know, honestly, again not trying to piss anyone off, but *if *I'm wrong and there is a god who judges everyone, I think he/she/it will base it totally on how we live our lives.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 5, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Ya know, honestly, again not trying to piss anyone off, but *if *I'm wrong and there is a god who judges everyone, I think he/she/it will base it totally on how we live our lives.



I hear that a lot, and I understand the sentiment.

However, considering that I belong to an existing religion, I am not free to pick and choose the attributes I would most like my Creator to have.

Given a mental exploration down the path of logic, however, it would as logical to assign any Creator the role of one who either does not know or does not care what we humans do with our lives or both.

Nature is indifferent.  Therefore, it is logical to assume that nature's God is indifferent; after all, if there is a Creator, nature is a reflection of that Creator's attributes.

It also leads one to reflections on why it is necessary to be 'good' at all.  Absent a Creator, there is no moral reason for a person to do anything good at all, unless doing so gives them pleasure or keeps them from experiencing unpleasantness or danger.  Morality is purely a human invention; animals don't have it.

One may argue that doing good because a Creator demands it is not optimal; it's not doing good because one wishes to be good, but based on fear of eternal retribution.  However, one may also argue that in the absence of a belief in a Creator that demands good behavior, one may obey 'moral codes' that might affect the person in question, but disregard any such moral demands that are likely to remain undetected.  In other words, a person who did not believe in a Creator might just as well refrain from robbing banks, but steal whenever the opportunity presented itself and they were not likely to be caught.  In other words, in the absence of a Creator or religious demands to behave in a particular way, there is no real reason to 'be good' other than to avoid getting caught and suffering the consequences.  Ethics and morality become situational.

You can take it quite a bit further, and it's a fun exercise sometimes.  I tend (as you can probably guess) to subscribe to the belief that no matter what ills organized religion cause in society, the underpinnings of all society, law, justice, and even morality, are based in religious understandings.  Even in modern secular societies that are not 'religious' at all, the base concepts (killing people is wrong, raping is wrong) are religious proscriptions - not necessarily Christian, but religious nonetheless.  Even atheists who 'do good' have their base morality informed by society, which in turn was based on religious codes and precepts.

In other words, you can take the man out of the religion, but you can't take the religion out of the man.  Like the old dish-soap commercial; religion?  You're soaking in it!


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 5, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I hear that a lot, and I understand the sentiment.
> 
> However, considering that I belong to an existing religion, I am not free to pick and choose the attributes I would most like my Creator to have.
> 
> ...


 
Oh so cool we could do a whole new thread on whether or not we get our morality from religion or we gave religion our morality!!!

I would argue that our morality is based in genetics rather than religion. We have certain inherant traits, as do all pack/group/social animals on how to behave so as to maximize the groups survival. Even very young babies show empathy towards others, its built in.

I find it insulting that people think it is impossible to be good without religion.

My heart is not in the debate right now though Bill. Gotta get some work done, then I'm off to yourside of the border for most of the week. 

Here is a couple of good good links to give people something to think about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCL63d66frs&feature=related


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 5, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I find it insulting that people think it is impossible to be good without religion.



I don't think it is impossible to be good without religion.  People can do whatever they like, including choosing to be 'good'.  I think religion or rather society-which-was-informed-by-religion defined what 'good' was first and then people were free to choose to adhere to those definitions or not.



> I would argue that our morality is based in genetics rather than religion. We have certain inherant traits, as do all pack/group/social animals on how to behave so as to maximize the groups survival. Even very young babies show empathy towards others, its built in.



I think that's anthropomorphizing.  We may well act by instinct based on personal survival and group survival, and animals may well show what we would consider 'empathy', but consider also that animals abandon the old and weak if they imperil the group; they take females by force in primate groups, steal, hide and refuse to share food, and so on.  We may have hard-wired instincts for empathy, and I'm sure that has informed the religions we created, but that does not mean that all of what we call 'good' is based on genetics.


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## Blade96 (Apr 5, 2010)

according to what Bill said here I'm headed straight for hell according to christian doctrine. 

and you are too Ken =]



CoryKS said:


> Detroit is not Hell.  Detroit exists so that people in Hell can say, "Well, at least we aren't in Detroit."



Hey. How can Detroit be hell when it has my favorite NHL team there? :angel:


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 5, 2010)

The more I see this thread grow, the more I believe I'm in hell.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 5, 2010)

Tames D said:


> I know this is a weird question considering it's Good Friday. But here go's.
> 
> Do you think this is Hell we are currently living in? Or do you believe this is an "inbetween' where we will either go to Heaven or Hell when we die? Or do you believe something different?
> 
> ...


When you consider there are multiple dimensions, sure.
Sean


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## JDenver (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm actually a fan of some Gnostic beliefs, which is smack dab where this question sits.

First of all, most Gnostics would say that Jesus exists in all of us.  'He' wasn't an actual person, but is a set of precepts.

Also, that we are living in Hell.  That is to say, we create awful physical prisons for ourselves by not having an association to Jesus, which means to the 'One', the universe.

Sorry that I've missed so much in here already!


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## pmosiun1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Matt Thornton said:
			
		

> "What most religious people call faith is  in reality doubt.
> 
> Real Faith is not a belief.
> 
> ...



Matt Thornton on Faith.


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 5, 2010)

pmosiun1 said:


> Matt Thornton on Faith.


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## Tomu (Apr 6, 2010)

Hell? No.

Samsara? Yes.

To live is to suffer in my belief.  Now suffering doesn't have to be starving to death or torture.  Just the normal stuff.  Aches and pains.  Kids that dont act right.  Governments.  Paying taxes.  All suffering. The trick is to realize that this isn't a bad/good thing.  Only the way things are. For me every moment I realize this in my life, I experience pure joy.  

The problem is its one of the hardest things I've ever attemted.

Well worth it though, IMO.


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## seasoned (Apr 6, 2010)

No, here we have choices, there the choice is already made.


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 8, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


>


 
Cool, got my first negative rep for this one!! 
No name alas......


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## Brother John (Apr 8, 2010)

Sylvia Browne is the biggest, cheesiest fraud....bar none.
I wouldn't take advice from her on how to change a tire, let alone be swayed one way or the other on her cosmology or theology.

Hell = Christian concept. It is the easiest of 2 options, according to general christian theology. It doesn't come to the living, the dead (in their 'sin') go to IT. 

Personally: As a christian, I believe in Hell, I believe it to be a state of *ceaseless* torment of body, mind and soul. IF you've ever had a moment to breath deep, relax and smile even once..... experienced something pleasurable or known any glimer of love either given or recieved....
you're _*FAR*_ from it.


Your Brother
John


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