# Couture Totally Controlling Ortiz



## spartanmachine (Sep 29, 2003)

How many people saw the total domination of Ortiz by Couture last week? Couture is a phenomenal wrestler especially at age 40. He controlled the clinches and totally dominated Ortiz on the ground. Position is everything in grappling and Couture did it beautifully!


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## MJS (Sep 29, 2003)

I saw the fight and thought that it was great!  Randy is definately an awesome wrestler who IMO, I think was under estimated in his last 2 fights.  Chuck and Tito are no wimps by any means, but I think that alot of people thought that they would dominate over Randy with their striking skills.  At least Tito was respectful at the end.

Mike


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## Old Tiger (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by spartanmachine _
> *He controlled the clinches and totally dominated Ortiz on the ground. Position is everything in grappling and Couture did it beautifully! *



You are correct about control. In wrestling/grappling control is everything, not position. You have to control the fight at all times, in the stand up, clinch, takedown, and on the ground. You can be across the street from each other and that is a "position". Position is meaningless without control. Cotoure knows from his wrestling background that you have to wrestle with control to the submissions or hooks. You have to have control to "ground and pound"because you have to use your hips to punch effectively and that requires control. To much emphasis is put on position now days and more should be put on control. Constantly pressure your opponent, make him carrry your weight at all times and control him in any "position".


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## MJS (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by catchevangelist _
> *You are correct about control. In wrestling/grappling control is everything, not position. You have to control the fight at all times, in the stand up, clinch, takedown, and on the ground. You can be across the street from each other and that is a "position". Position is meaningless without control. Cotoure knows from his wrestling background that you have to wrestle with control to the submissions or hooks. You have to have control to "ground and pound"because you have to use your hips to punch effectively and that requires control. To much emphasis is put on position now days and more should be put on control. Constantly pressure your opponent, make him carrry your weight at all times and control him in any "position". *



I have to disagree.  How can you have any control, unless you are in the proper position?  For example, if you are in the mount, unless you have the proper position, the person on the bottom is going to have a very easy time escaping.  If you attain a good position, the control will then come.  One guy that I train some grappling with has his students start off by working through a pin flow while on the ground.  By making sure that we can flow from one to the other, that will enable us to keep control as well as work for a submission.

Mike


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## pknox (Oct 1, 2003)

Excellent points MJS.  The "control of position" prior to "control of opponent" is a core tenet of BJJ, but it also seems to be something common to all good, solid, grappling systems.  I for one have been tapped quite a few times while going for my own submission.  In almost all cases, this was because I had not established positional dominance, even though I _thought_ had control of my opponent.   I guess it is possible to control an opponent without controlling him positionally, but you better be stronger and have better technique then him, because you are most likely leaving yourself open to a counter.


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## Kroy (Oct 1, 2003)

This fight also lets people know that your not washed up at 40.


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## MJS (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *Excellent points MJS.  The "control of position" prior to "control of opponent" is a core tenet of BJJ, but it also seems to be something common to all good, solid, grappling systems.  I for one have been tapped quite a few times while going for my own submission.  In almost all cases, this was because I had not established positional dominance, even though I thought had control of my opponent.   I guess it is possible to control an opponent without controlling him positionally, but you better be stronger and have better technique then him, because you are most likely leaving yourself open to a counter. *



Thank you :asian: 

Mike


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## pknox (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Thank you :asian:
> 
> Mike *



You are quite welcome.


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## pknox (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kroy _
> *This fight also lets people know that your not washed up at 40. *



God I hope so.  I'm 32, soon to be 33, and still a bit of a newbie at the grappling game.  While I'm not looking to compete in Pride or the UFC anytime soon, it's good to know that it is possible to still perform at a pretty high level at that age.


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## Kroy (Oct 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *God I hope so.  I'm 32, soon to be 33, and still a bit of a newbie at the grappling game.  While I'm not looking to compete in Pride or the UFC anytime soon, it's good to know that it is possible to still perform at a pretty high level at that age. *



I'm 37 and no sign of slowing down. I contibute that to my martial arts training.:asian:


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## Old Tiger (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *I have to disagree.  How can you have any control, unless you are in the proper position?  For example, if you are in the mount, unless you have the proper position, the person on the bottom is going to have a very easy time escaping.  If you attain a good position, the control will then come.
> 
> Mike *



I think there is a semantical problem here to some degree but let me give you one example since you have been so kind as to do so. 
If you have me in your guard (what we call FBS or Front Body Scissors) according to BJJ you are in a superior "position". If you put a Catch wrestler in your "guard" you can be in "proper" position but you will soon find that he is controlling you, pressuring, punishing and probably quickly submitting or hooking you and that being on your back is the LAST place you want to be. This is a radical concept in todays grappling environment. I am really not trying to be argumentative or create problems. It is just that what we do is so different from what is currently "mainstream". People have not seen or experienced it so there is no common point of reference. We emphasize principles that allow control no matter what the position.  But describing things is difficult when resticted by language and can be confusing. For example we refer to "control positions". Everything is a position, our emphasis is on control. Thanks for the response guys.


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## spartanmachine (Oct 4, 2003)

Absolutely, You can be a great athlete, have tons of submissions, great boxing skills, and be very tough but the most important factor is being able to control the range and positions. Without that, someone with positional skills and a good right hand along with a choke and armbar can beat you.
 Controlling the fight starts with controling the position.


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## MJS (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by catchevangelist _
> *I think there is a semantical problem here to some degree but let me give you one example since you have been so kind as to do so.
> If you have me in your guard (what we call FBS or Front Body Scissors) according to BJJ you are in a superior "position". If you put a Catch wrestler in your "guard" you can be in "proper" position but you will soon find that he is controlling you, pressuring, punishing and probably quickly submitting or hooking you and that being on your back is the LAST place you want to be. This is a radical concept in todays grappling environment. I am really not trying to be argumentative or create problems. It is just that what we do is so different from what is currently "mainstream". People have not seen or experienced it so there is no common point of reference. We emphasize principles that allow control no matter what the position.  But describing things is difficult when resticted by language and can be confusing. For example we refer to "control positions". Everything is a position, our emphasis is on control. Thanks for the response guys. *



Thank you for the reply and I have to say that both you and spartanmachine summed it up very well.  I think that when the first UFC came out, everybody was amazed at the Gracies.  Royce controlled people in the guard and they had no idea as to what to do.  Now, after looking at how they (the Gracies) fight, people have figured out how to defeat this position.  Granted there are many differnet types of grappling, as it has been pointed out here, but IMO, I feel that when you have 2 people that are of an equal skill, then it all comes down to who is the better person.  Grappling is a game of chess--- you need to think 3 moves ahead of what the other person is doing.

Thank you both for the reply and I look forward to have more discussions with both of you.

Mike


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## Kroy (Oct 4, 2003)

Do you think we'll ever see Tito and Chuck fight?


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## clapping_tiger (Oct 4, 2003)

> Do you think we'll ever see Tito and Chuck fight?



no.  But I would love to see it.


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## Kroy (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by clapping_tiger _
> *no.  But I would love to see it. *



Why, no?


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## JDenz (Oct 5, 2003)

I think that Randy is so strong at 205 that Tito and Iceman didn't have much of a chance at getting out of a cotrol position.


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## pknox (Oct 5, 2003)

Yeah.  And he's a good 205 too.  I honestly think that's his strongest weight.  He looked ripped, and he was really able to control Tito, just like you said.  If I were his trainer, that's the weight I'd want to see him come in at every time.


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## JDenz (Oct 5, 2003)

lol I think he would be the strongest at 185 to lol.  He is a strong man with years of wrestling bakground.  I think he is possably the best LHW in the world now.  I feel that he has the best control game in MMA at 205.  I think in a cage under ufc rules he would beat Silva.  I think that he understands the MMA game better then anyother wrestlers.  I think his early losses by submission tought him a great respect for the game, you can see the difrence in his style from when he first started.


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## J-kid (Oct 6, 2003)

I personaly believe that the Alistair Overeem aka Demolition Man can beat randy, maybe not now but soon he should be able to. 

Reasons why, i believe pound for pound he is one of the best strikers, he needs to learn not to mess around like he did with chuck at his level of game.  Its true randy beat the crap out of chuck and chuck knocked out Overeem but i think there is a high chance that with Overeems ground skills improving all the time and his amazing striking ability that he would be able to knock Randy out.   Not to mention the fact that he is 23 years old.


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## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by J-kid _
> *I personaly believe that the Alistair Overeem aka Demolition Man can beat randy, maybe not now but soon he should be able to.
> 
> Reasons why, i believe pound for pound he is one of the best strikers, he needs to learn not to mess around like he did with chuck at his level of game.  Its true randy beat the crap out of chuck and chuck knocked out Overeem but i think there is a high chance that with Overeems ground skills improving all the time and his amazing striking ability that he would be able to knock Randy out.   Not to mention the fact that he is 23 years old. *



For some reason, I cant seem to recall that fight.  Was it in one of the UFC's?  As for the age of this guy, I dont think Its gonna matter.  Tito is 28 and he got beat by Randy.  Just because this guy is 23 makes no difference.

Mike


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## spartanmachine (Oct 6, 2003)

I honestly don't think he would be much of a challenge for Randy either.


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## JDenz (Oct 7, 2003)

Ya his ground skills are way to lacking to be able to beat randy.  Randy has never had problems with strikers he beat Rizzo, Belfort, Liddell.  Overeem is a good striker but his game is no where near Rizzo, he got knocked out by Liddell, Belfort was the most amazing striker in UFC history till Randy dominited him and he fell into that funk.  By the time Overeem gets enough ground skills to fight with Randy wandy's going to be in his 50's and retired.


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